# HD600 cable upgrade - worth it?



## sp70

I've heard so many varying opinions. I'm stuck with the basic flimsy HD600 cable and wanted to know if those $200+ cables out there really make that big of a difference? I have a modest setup, but i'd hate for this thin cable to be my bottleneck.
   
  Would the (cheap!) upgrade to the HD650 cable bring any improvement? Or am I best saving for something like the Stefan Equinox or the Cardas cable?
   
  These are all rather pricey for someone on a limited budget as I so I suppose what i'm saying is would I be wasting my money for a minute upgrade or is this the real deal? I've read quite a few reviews of the various upgrade cables and it either seems like they "sounded the same, I returned them" or it was "night and day difference, worth twice the price I payed!"
   
  How do you think i'm best off spending my money in this matter? Should I upgrade to the HD650 cable for ~$16, not upgrade at all, or save my cash for one of the more pricey options mentioned above?


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## sp70

Anyone? I'd love some speculation.


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## fjf

Not worthit.  Get a different headphone if you want a change.  The cables thing is just voodoo.


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## Lenni

I don't have much experience with HP's re-cabling, but having experimented with various speaker & interconnect cables I know it's a matter of either make or break a system.
   
  if I had a HP I enjoyed sound of, and was comfortable with, I'd most definitely re-cable them.
   
  personally I wouldn't bother with either the HD650 cable or Cardas. the Stefan Equinox seems ideal, or you may wanna consider the Zeus
   
  as for the "big" difference in sound depending on cables you may get more bass weight/resolution, highs, details, soundstage, more open, clear sound etc. - it's not much a case of the cable adding sound, but letting the sound flow better
   
   
  PS: beware of the sage comments and their wise-ass reasoning  that you're better off upgrading the HP's ... lol


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## KingStyles

While a cable can make a difference in some instances, you will get more change and sound quality increase by applying that money to a new dac, amp, or cd player/computer. I wouldnt worry about the recables untill you have your source, transport, and amp squared away and then if you dont mind spending large amounts of money compared to the small increase in sound quality then knock yourself out. By the way, the cable should never be worth more than your amp, dac, or source, it would be a waste of money.


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## minimus

Aftermarket cables can change the sound signature of a headphone, but not always in a positive way.  For example, I bought a Stefan Audio Arts Equinox cable for my HD650s and I thought it sounded worse than the stock cable.  It made the HD650s sound way to bright for my taste, emphasizing the upper frequencies and truncating the lower frequencies.


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## fjf

Just a placebo effect (in which the buyer believes sincerely), directly related to the cost of the voodoo cable in question.  No human can differenciate thick enough cables.  If you use 20 micron cables to start with, then you can improve.


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## kickassdude

Keep the money. 200 dollar cables are pure scam, don't buy it.


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## Draca

See the link in my sig for why *some* people _think_ cables make a difference but in reality don't.


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## Lenni

I really could use something like this right now...


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## Lenni

Quote: 





draca said:


> See the link in my sig for why *some* people _think_ cables make a difference but in reality don't.


 
   

  Just because *you*, little english peasant, don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean everybody is the same.  There’s more to cables that *you* will never know or understand. Saying things like all cables sound the same, or is only a placebo effect is, a) pure ignorance, and b) laughable.
  At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do, and lucky for me there are a whole bunch people who do too. And some of these people (bless their souls) will dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort, and resource into improving cables, and other related gear for our better sound experience.
   
  Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


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## sp70

Now, lets keep this thread civil folks, we would hate to let what could be a sensible debate break down into name calling.
   
  I appreciate both sides of this, and am thankful for the varying amount of opinions.
   
  As it would appear there is such a stark difference in views, i've decided to simply see for myself. The natural upgrade (and only one my wallet will currently allow) seems to be the HD650 cable, which i'm told will at least be a decent improvement over my stock HD600 one. I've gone ahead an ordered it and hope to receive it in a week or so. I hope to be able to draw my own speculation from this experience so I can weigh in better on the subject.
   
  Once again I appreciate everyone's posts thus far, and would love for this discussion to continue but please let us at least be mature about it. sp70.


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## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Now, lets keep this thread civil folks, we would hate to let what could be a sensible debate break down into name calling.
> 
> I appreciate both sides of this, and am thankful for the varying amount of opinions.
> 
> ...


 
  That is the smartest thing you can do. Decide for yourself. The sides on this subject are very divided. I have heard both. I have heard it make a difference and I have heard it not make a difference. Just keep a open mind and be prepared to not hear a difference as much as you want to hear a difference.


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## wnewport

My hd580 sounded the same with hd650 cable.
   
  With that said, a nice pair of bookshelf speakers was the best headphone upgrade I ever bought.


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## Trysaeder

Quote: 





lenni said:


> Just because *you*, little english peasant, don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean everybody is the same.  There’s more to cables that *you* will never know or understand. Saying things like all cables sound the same, or is only a placebo effect is, a) pure ignorance, and b) laughable.
> At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do, and lucky for me there are a whole bunch people who do too. And some of these people (bless their souls) will dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort, and resource into improving cables, and other related gear for our better sound experience.
> 
> Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


 

 Fixed.
  By the way, next time you think of buying a $1800 cable, why not settle for a $900 one and give me the other $900? You get more happiness from giving.


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## mikemalter

I found that the Cardas upgrade cable made a very big difference to my listening experience.
   
  I got a pair of HD800's a couple of months ago which is an upgrade to my HD650's.  I ordered the upgrade for the 800 right away because I remember the sonic difference it made to me when I got my 650.  So when I started listening to my new 800 with the stock cord, they sounded almost exactly like my 650 with the Cardas cord; and it was the upgrade cable that made the difference.  When my Cardas 800 upgrade cable arrived, it moved the 800 up a very big notch.
   
  Quote:


sp70 said:


> I've heard so many varying opinions. I'm stuck with the basic flimsy HD600 cable and wanted to know if those $200+ cables out there really make that big of a difference? I have a modest setup, but i'd hate for this thin cable to be my bottleneck.
> 
> Would the (cheap!) upgrade to the HD650 cable bring any improvement? Or am I best saving for something like the Stefan Equinox or the Cardas cable?
> 
> ...


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## High_Q

Don't waste your money on replacing your single ended cable.   If you want to hear some real improvement, get a balanced amp and get your cables balanced.


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## El_Doug

wow... ur a real downer, eh? 
  
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> *you*, little english peasant
> a) pure ignorance
> it doesn’t matter what *you* think
> Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


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## upstateguy

Quote: 





lenni said:


> Just because *you*, little english peasant, don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean everybody is the same.  There’s more to cables that *you* will never know or understand. Saying things like all cables sound the same, or is only a placebo effect is, a) pure ignorance, and b) laughable.
> At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do, and lucky for me there are a whole bunch people who do too. And some of these people (bless their souls) will dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort, and resource into improving cables, and other related gear for our better sound experience.
> 
> Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


 
   
  Quote: 





el_doug said:


> wow... ur a real downer, eh?


 

*@ El_Doug* ,That was some post, what do you think set him off?


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## Draca

Quote: 





lenni said:


> Just because *you*, little english peasant, don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean everybody is the same.  There’s more to cables that *you* will never know or understand. Saying things like all cables sound the same, or is only a placebo effect is, a) pure ignorance, and b) laughable.
> At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do, and lucky for me there are a whole bunch people who do too. And some of these people (bless their souls) will dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort, and resource into improving cables, and other related gear for our better sound experience.
> 
> Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


 
   
  All I posted was a one line message pointing the OP toward a link in my signature that presents various applications of psychoacoustic science to certain claims made by certain audiophiles.
   
  Your attitude is quite disturbing, especially "At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do". The problem with that sentence, Lenni, is that I'm not sure you *are* thinking. Posting something laced with ad hominem attacks just because the other person has a different ideology to you is actually quite offensive to me. I'm not sure, Lenni, what caused you to defecate in your pants over this post - perhaps it was the use of '*bold*'? In any case, your response was childish, inimical and indicates you invests far too much of your self-esteem on the internet.
   
  If you feel the need to throw around ad hominem, feel free to PM me.


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## Trogdor

I'd like Lenni to put his money where his mouth is and do a DBT/ABX  (if he loses he has to give up his $1800 cable).
   
  The only reason to swap cables IMO is if you want to recable the connectors (single-ended vs balanced).  And as Draca puts in his sig (great description), aesthetically pleasing.
   
  If you really want different sound, get a different headphone or a tube amplifier or a $10000 power cable!


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## aimlink

Quote: 





draca said:


> All I posted was a one line message pointing the OP toward a link in my signature that presents various applications of psychoacoustic science to certain claims made by certain audiophiles.
> 
> Your attitude is quite disturbing, especially "At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do". The problem with that sentence, Lenni, is that I'm not sure you *are* thinking. Posting something laced with ad hominem attacks just because the other person has a different ideology to you is actually quite offensive to me. I'm not sure, Lenni, what caused you to defecate in your pants over this post - perhaps it was the use of '*bold*'? In any case, your response was childish, inimical and indicates you invests far too much of your self-esteem on the internet.
> 
> If you feel the need to throw around ad hominem, feel free to PM me.


 

 What personal experience do you have with cables?


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## Mr C

Guys read the memo, on these forums the high post count people think cables dont change anything, portable audio is a joke, and if you critiscize the flavour of the month peice of equipment you WILL get trolled.
  How dare you question what people that have more than 1K posts say, they post more therefore they have perfect hearing and know all about audio.
  Right?


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## Draca

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> What personal experience do you have with cables?


 
   
  In another thread that you were involved in I'm pretty sure I was asked the same question, specifically relating to my experience with recabling my HD600s. I have tried four different cables (and stock) and _heard no difference of note_. The one I've settled on now is a custom recable from ebay that looks like some of the ALO recables at a fraction of the price and ironically still has a more expensive quarter inch plug than the ALO. Looks nice, sounds identical to stock. The other cables I tried were the Cardas, SAA, and a custom Kimber recable from ebay. I've also tried the HD650 cable which merely has a thicker plastic coating - _no difference in any of these in ABX tests._
   
  I have more general experience with interconnects and power cables, a couple of years ago I wasn't aware of the science behind them so I did waste a lot of money on a placebo that gradually wore off. Once I started attending cognitive science lectures at university and talked to some physicists studying electromagnetism about some of the claims made about these cables I realised just how fallible our hearing can be. I have not found one properly conducted DBT or ABX where differences between cables have been found. Basically, if one can't hear it in a blind test, than one's mind is compensating. Again, Ethan Winer explains and examines all of these phenomena in his presentation.
   
  I think there is a list composed by Prog Rock Man (iirc) of some DBTs/ABXs conducted by reputable sources in the Sound Science forum.
   
  Edit: Just stumbled across this, quite a hilarious find: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/475342/not-sure-i-ve-made-the-right-decision
   
  It's Lenni making the _fascinating_ (*sarcasm*) discovery that his speakers sound better when he turns up the volume. This is the sort of person we're dealing with here...


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## aimlink

Quote: 





draca said:


> In another thread that you were involved in I'm pretty sure I was asked the same question, specifically relating to my experience with recabling my HD600s. I have tried four different cables (and stock) and heard no difference of note. The one I've settled on now is a custom recable from ebay that looks like some of the ALO recables at a fraction of the price and ironically still has a more expensive quarter inch plug than the ALO. Looks nice, sounds identical to stock. The other cables I tried were the Cardas, SAA, and a custom Kimber recable from ebay. I've also tried the HD650 cable which merely has a thicker plastic coating - no difference in any of these in ABX tests.
> 
> I have more general experience with interconnects and power cables, a couple of years ago I wasn't aware of the science behind them so I did waste a lot of money on a placebo that gradually wore off. Once I started attending cognitive science lectures at university and talked to some physicists studying electromagnetism about some of the claims made about these cables I realised just how fallible our hearing can be. I have not found one properly conducted DBT or ABX where differences between cables have been found. If you can't hear it in a blind test, than your mind is compensating. Again, Ethan Winer explains and examines all of these phenomena in his presentation.
> 
> I think there is a list composed by Prog Rock Man (iirc) of some DBTs/ABXs conducted by reputable sources in the Sound Science forum.


 

 Thanks for saying man.  You make for a credible opinion.


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## Antony6555

I like how the cable believers in this thread use personal attacks instead of any reasoning or evidence. Maybe because there is no evidence or reasoning to use cables...


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## Lenni

What prompted my sort of acrimonious sorry-ass comment (wrong way to get a message across) is that your whole experience regarding cables most likely amounts to one pair of re-cabled headphones; it wasn’t what you expected to hear (which is pretty common with cables), and here you are in what seems to me some kind of mission in telling the whole world about cable reality. not good enough.
   
  This whole debate about cable placebo and what not, I’m sure is usually from people who has not much experience with cables, or system that would be almost impossible to hear anything. Otherwise I don’t get how a difference could not be heard. For example, I receive a pair of interconnects last week. I was really hoping to hear an improvement since they weren’t cheap, but it wasn’t the case.  So according to this placebo effect, if I’m not mistaken, I should have liked the cables because... whatever, but I didn’t. Reversed placebo???
   
  "At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think". what I meant by that is if you use poor made cables or coat hangers in your system, I couldn't care less. what I care is that I use the right cables for my system. I can easily tell two different cables I'm familiar with apart on my system. I don’t need any scientific measurement machine  to show me they make a difference or not; I’ve the best machine there is: the brain, and the ear. 
   
  If anybody wants to do a DBT on my system, with my cables, my music, I’ll take bet up to £1k (cash) per test. If you’re up for it PM me.
   
   
  [edit] anyway my apologies 

  Quote: 





draca said:


> All I posted was a one line message pointing the OP toward a link in my signature that presents various applications of psychoacoustic science to certain claims made by certain audiophiles.
> 
> Your attitude is quite disturbing, especially "At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do". The problem with that sentence, Lenni, is that I'm not sure you *are* thinking. Posting something laced with ad hominem attacks just because the other person has a different ideology to you is actually quite offensive to me. I'm not sure, Lenni, what caused you to defecate in your pants over this post - perhaps it was the use of '*bold*'? In any case, your response was childish, inimical and indicates you invests far too much of your self-esteem on the internet.
> 
> If you feel the need to throw around ad hominem, feel free to PM me.


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## fjf

Seems the english peasants cannot listen to music or enjoy it. 
   
  In reality this only demonstrates that those who spend 1800$ on a cable cannot be told they bought snake oil and a very expensive one.
   
  A cable must:
   
  1-be thick enough to carry the necessary current
  2-be well shielded to avoid interferences
   
  No reasonable cable can cost more than (guesstimate) $5/meter.  The rest=people looking for nirvana (heaven) on earth.


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## Draca

Quote: 





lenni said:


> What prompted my sort of acrimonious sorry-ass comment (wrong way to get a message across) is that your whole experience regarding cables most likely amounts to one pair of re-cabled headphones; it wasn’t what you expected to hear (which is pretty common with cables), and here you are in what seems to me some kind of mission in telling the whole world about cable reality. not good enough.
> 
> This whole debate about cable placebo and what not, I’m sure is usually from people who has not much experience with cables, or system that would be almost impossible to hear anything. Otherwise I don’t get how a difference could not be heard. For example, I receive a pair of interconnects last week. I was really hoping to hear an improvement since they weren’t cheap, but it wasn’t the case.  So according to this placebo effect, if I’m not mistaken, I should have liked the cables because... whatever, but I didn’t. Reversed placebo???
> 
> ...


 

 You are hardly sincere. What you've said here is that your ears and brain are more reliable than FR measurement devices and other equipment. This is of course a) ignorant and b) laughable - to use your own terms. Did you actually bother watching the presentation on audiological memory and the placebo effect? (which is by the way, far more complex than always influencing a positive outcome - explaining the latest cable you heard no difference with).
   
  Regarding my 'experience' with cables, I already outlined this in a post above, explaining I'd tested four + hd650 stock cables just for *one* of my headphones. If it helps, when I recabled my hd25s with the 600 stock cable, moving from the steel to OFC conductor, there was, you guessed it, still no difference, although this change is the only one I didn't ABX due to the original cable requiring the 'phones to be dismantled. I have also used Russ Andrews, Clearer Audio, custom ebay power cords, van den Hul and custom eichmann bullet RCA interconnects amongst countless studiospares and monoprice alternatives. Ultimately I kept the ones which were the best value for money (mainly keeping in mind shielding and aesthetics) and sold on or returned others.
   
  Insulting my hearing or system will get you nowhere. An argument from incredulity is no argument at all. My audiologist assures me I have perfect hearing, but I'm not sure you care much for anything based in science or reality...
   
  What's most phenomenally frustrating yet ironic about your posts is that you have admitted yourself to having no experience with recabling headphones, yet act as if you know all about it. This topic is about the HD600: could you please enlighten us all as to *your* experience with this headphone, seeing as subjective 'experience' is all you seem to be ranting about?


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## Lenni

yes I don’t have much experience with HP’s recabling, but what does it matter? I could’ve the most extensive experience, but it would not matter, would it? you want scientific proofs, concrete evidence, etc. only when I can show that you’ll start to hear a difference, is that right? Well I’m afraid I can’t give you that. What I can give you is my opinion on the sound characteristic a specific cable has. And the opinions that some other users wrote about the cable which reflect pretty much everything I hear with the cable. I know it’s all placebo... lol
   
  ok, I checked the link in your signature, watched for about #9mins, then I just got bored, and stopped. Thanks wasting me  #9mins. I usually take what “scientists” say with a pinch of salt. To me some scientists seem like religious fanatics. It’s all about proof – if it can’t be measured it’s not real, or something like that. And when they bump into something that cannot be explained they’ll make up some ridiculous theory for it. Fact!
   
  you see, I’m not interested in hearing some dumbass scientific theory. I’d rather trust what I hear with my own ears. and what I hear is 100% true and real, as far as sound difference with cables is concerned. I’ve no doubts about it.
   
  anyway, I’m sick already of the cable “debates”, so that's it for me. I'll let you get on with your little mission, and move on. so long

  Quote: 





draca said:


> You are hardly sincere. What you've said here is that your ears and brain are more reliable than FR measurement devices and other equipment. This is of course a) ignorant and b) laughable - to use your own terms. Did you actually bother watching the presentation on audiological memory and the placebo effect? (which is by the way, far more complex than always influencing a positive outcome - explaining the latest cable you heard no difference with).
> 
> Regarding my 'experience' with cables, I already outlined this in a post above, explaining I'd tested four + hd650 stock cables just for *one* of my headphones. If it helps, when I recabled my hd25s with the 600 stock cable, moving from the steel to OFC conductor, there was, you guessed it, still no difference, although this change is the only one I didn't ABX due to the original cable requiring the 'phones to be dismantled. I have also used Russ Andrews, Clearer Audio, custom ebay power cords, van den Hul and custom eichmann bullet RCA interconnects amongst countless studiospares and monoprice alternatives. Ultimately I kept the ones which were the best value for money (mainly keeping in mind shielding and aesthetics) and sold on or returned others.
> 
> ...


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## Draca

Ignorance is bliss.
   
  Responses in bold. I've had enough of this guy, reason doesn't break through to him, so ad hominem happily included.
   
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> yes I don’t have much experience with HP’s recabling, but what does it matter? I could’ve the most extensive experience, but it would not matter, would it? you want scientific proofs, concrete evidence, etc. only when I can show that you’ll start to hear a difference, is that right? Well I’m afraid I can’t give you that. What I can give you is my opinion on the sound characteristic a specific cable has. And the opinions that some other users wrote about the cable which reflect pretty much everything I hear with the cable. I know it’s all placebo... lol
> 
> *So basically you know nothing about the HD600, but are going to somehow recommend cables to the OP? How would you know anything about the sound signature of the headphone in question? How would you know which cable to recommend? Surely in your fantasy world, if the cable has a sonic signature it's going to affect the overall signature of the headphone. Basically, without knowing the HD600s you wouldn't be able to recommend anything, so I don't understand why you entered this thread in the first place, let alone had the balls to attack other posters who actually had experience with the 'phones.* *Don't conflate your fantasy world where cables make a difference and my requests for concrete data with your motivation to post. In your mind, cables make a difference based on your own experiences - yet ironically you have no experience with the HD600. This is not consistent. *
> 
> ...


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## BIG POPPA

Everybody is different. Kingstyles is right. Follow your instincts.


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## kubus

*OBVIOUSLY worth it!!!!*
   
  Cardas Blue or APS v3 and you will get truly audiophile phones for very small amount of cash!


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## Lenni

Quote: 





> Good. You might be pleased to know you've converted me not to a believer in cables, but a believer in involuntary euthanasia for idiots.


 
   

   
  I’m not interested in converting you, or anybody else for that matter, AT ALL. You’re misunderstanding. I said it already, I couldn’t care less if you’d use coat hangers for cables, or whatever. doesn’t bother me. entirely your choice. whatever suit you.
   
  What irritates me is you trolling around the forum with your know-it-all knowledge on “scientific” placebo effect, and reality about cables, when is only a belief you created in your head. you’ve heard a couple of cables in your entire life in some crappy system, but yet have come to the conclusion you know all about cables reality, and are on a mission to let the  world know.  (that’s ignorance to me)
   
  what a peasant!
  What a peasant!I’m not interested in converting you, or anybody else for that matter, at all. You’re misunderstanding. I said it already, I couldn’t care less if you’d use coat hangers for cables, or whatever. doesn’t bother me.  your choice. whatever suit you.
  What irritates me is you trolling around the forum with your know-it-all knowledge on “scientific” placebo effect, and reality about cables, when is only a belief you created in your head. you’ve heard a couple of cables in your entire life in some crappy system, but yet have come to the conclusion you know all about cables reality, and are on a mission to let the  world know.  (that’s ignorance to me) 
  What a peasant!


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## JamesL

Quote: 





lenni said:


> some random stuff





>






 I typed out a lot of things that would have gotten me banned..
   
  All i'm going to say is though.. I'm at a loss of words, and I hope I never have to deal with you in real life.
   
   ​


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## flaming_june

Cable users do not have the scentific and statical data to argue statistical difference in expensive cables.  Stock cable users do not have the data to argue their null hypothesis that there is no difference between stock and expensive replacement.
   
  All in all, a waste of time.


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## Draca

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I’m not interested in converting you, or anybody else for that matter, AT ALL. You’re misunderstanding. I said it already, I couldn’t care less if you’d use coat hangers for cables, or whatever. doesn’t bother me. entirely your choice. whatever suit you.
> 
> What irritates me is you trolling around the forum with your know-it-all knowledge on “scientific” placebo effect, and reality about cables, when is only a belief you created in your head. you’ve heard a couple of cables in your entire life in some crappy system, but yet have come to the conclusion you know all about cables reality, and are on a mission to let the  world know.  (that’s ignorance to me)
> 
> ...


 

 LOL.
   
  This guy deserves a Darwin Award.


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## sp70

For pete's sake, this thread is outrageous. I feel more confused now than I did before I first posted! Anyway, thanks for all your help thus far, I feel like my best bet is to bring my phones to either a hi-fi shop that carries various cables, or to a head-fi meet and try different ones and see for myself!
   
  Either way, I have no problem spending the ~$19 it was for the upgrade HD650 cord as it is not only a) new  b) more sturdy, but also c) i think my HD600 cord is now getting a short...when I move it it will occasionally crackle.
   
  If I hear any life-altering difference, i'll be sure to keep you posted. Of course if any of the non-believers have any HD600 upgrade cords they would like to get rid of, just send 'em on over!  sp70.


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## Vergex2

Quote: 





sp70 said:


> For pete's sake, this thread is outrageous. I feel more confused now than I did before I first posted! Anyway, thanks for all your help thus far, I feel like my best bet is to bring my phones to either a hi-fi shop that carries various cables, or to a head-fi meet and try different ones and see for myself!
> 
> Either way, I have no problem spending the ~$19 it was for the upgrade HD650 cord as it is not only a) new  b) more sturdy, but also c) i think my HD600 cord is now getting a short...when I move it it will occasionally crackle.
> 
> If I hear any life-altering difference, i'll be sure to keep you posted. Of course if any of the non-believers have any HD600 upgrade cords they would like to get rid of, just send 'em on over!  sp70.


 
   
  Definitely keep it empirical. Don't get a recable and expect an earth shattering difference. If it is a matter of aesthetics, practicality (ie. length or resilience to damage), a bad connection (such as what happened to my ES10s) or to get balanced phones - sure that is a good reason as any to spend as much as you will. If at the end of the day you don't care for the non-sonic attributes of a recable, and can't discern it from placebo, you might as well get a refund or sell it.


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## CooLy_oNE

Seriously...I upgrade the stock HD 600 cable to cardas cable and can here the difference right away....


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## zenpunk

Quote: 





cooly_one said:


> Seriously...I upgrade the stock HD 600 cable to cardas cable and can here the difference right away....


 

 I wish people would wise up and abstain from making comment like this. It will help many of us stop wasting money on pointless upgrades. You probably bought the cable after reading about it here and you then parted with you cash hoping it would improve the sound. So of course you are hearing a difference. How much time have you spent investigating if the difference was real or just your mind fooling you? I had quite few similar experiences with upgrades but sadly further investigation has only shown me how unreliable my ears are.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





			
				zenpunk said:
			
		

> I wish people would wise up and abstain from making comment like this. It will help many of us stop wasting money on pointless upgrades. You probably bought the cable after reading about it here and you then parted with you cash hoping it would improve the sound. So of course you are hearing a difference. How much time have you spent investigating if the difference was real or just your mind fooling you? I had quite few similar experiences with upgrades but sadly further investigation has only shown me how unreliable my ears are.


 

 How is that advice any different from someone saying that a particular can is fabulous and even describes its characteristics, only for you to buy it and not have the same experience.  You may even end up selling them in the end? Hmmm?  How about hearing that amp X 'trounces' your own amp 'Y', so you decide to give it a try and you fail to see where such a claim is true. Hmmm?
   
  Let's be consistent here and not be unnecessarily abusive or self-righteous with no sound basis for it. Pun intended.


----------



## BIG POPPA

It is great that Cooly_one heard a difference on his rig. That is a very good thing in this hobby. But this comment " I wish people would wise up and and abstain from making a comment like this. It will help many of us stop wasting money on pointless upgrades". zenpunk, have you every thought of going to a Head-fi meet or organizing one in your area to try out different gear and/or discuss this hobby? If you are new to this hobby a meet would really benefit you head-fi journey. And don't believe everything you read, you have to try things out to really form a good opinion. Just my 2 cents.
  
  Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> I wish people would wise up and abstain from making comment like this. It will help many of us stop wasting money on pointless upgrades. You probably bought the cable after reading about it here and you then parted with you cash hoping it would improve the sound. So of course you are hearing a difference. How much time have you spent investigating if the difference was real or just your mind fooling you? I had quite few similar experiences with upgrades but sadly further investigation has only shown me how unreliable my ears are.


----------



## CooLy_oNE

I have been changing the cable between the cardas and stock...somehow the stock has more bass...but cardas give more warmth and fuller mid...


----------



## fjf

Thats because the cardas was not expensive enough.  Get a mortgage on your house and spend it all in a cable.  THEN you hear a difference.


----------



## Kuze

I lol'd lots at this, i still can't see what in the world set this guy off.
  
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> Just because *you*, little english peasant, don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean everybody is the same.  There’s more to cables that *you* will never know or understand. Saying things like all cables sound the same, or is only a placebo effect is, a) pure ignorance, and b) laughable.
> At the end of day it doesn’t matter what *you* think. what matters is that I do, and lucky for me there are a whole bunch people who do too. And some of these people (bless their souls) will dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort, and resource into improving cables, and other related gear for our better sound experience.
> 
> Go play with cows instead of trolling around hi-fi forums with annoying nonsense.douche


----------



## fjf

Yeah, the poor peasants...they must be too low class for him, rich and sensitive cable worshipper....


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





kuze said:


> I lol'd lots at this, i still can't see what in the world set this guy off.


 
   
  I'm not a particular fan of the name calling, but Lenni's reaction isn't at all surprising.  It's very difficult for some to see other perspectives from their's.


----------



## necropimp

my experiences with recabling:
   
  i replaced my HD580 cable with a HD650 cable the difference? i got sound in the right channel (the original cable broke and the 650 cable was actually cheaper)
   
  do i believe that cables affect sound? nowhere near the level of some people here who might have breathed some good old magic smoke while building their DIY components 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  there are SOME things a cable CAN affect that COULD affect the sound... but and this is a big but most cables don't affect these things enough to make the difference that some people around here preach
   
  now back to the OP will recabling your HD600s make a difference? well you mention crackling so yes it will probably get rid of that since your cable is obviously having issues but beyond fixing problems no noticable difference... if your amp has a 1/4" jack you'll get a more reliable connection using a cable with a 1/4" plug than you do with the standard cable+adapter


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





mikemalter said:


> I found that the Cardas upgrade cable made a very big difference to my listening experience.
> 
> I got a pair of HD800's a couple of months ago which is an upgrade to my HD650's.  I ordered the upgrade for the 800 right away because I remember the sonic difference it made to me when I got my 650. * So when I started listening to my new 800 with the stock cord, they sounded almost exactly like my 650 with the Cardas cord; *and it was the upgrade cable that made the difference.  When my Cardas 800 upgrade cable arrived, it moved the 800 up a very big notch.
> 
> Quote:


 

 I was rereading some of this thread when I can across your comment Mike.
   
  I haven't read any impressions that said the 880s sound even remotely like 650s. 
   
  What's up?
   
  USG


----------



## mcnoiserdc

You are the second person I know experienced the exact same thing. I know one more person who told me this from his experience. When I read this I couldn't believe it was someone else.
  well I am now using some hd650 cable with my hd600. It was a gift from appleheadmay from this forum. They are better at build and looks, but sound wise I couldn't spot differences, but I am not a experimented listener, so it is normal... I guess
  Quote: 





mikemalter said:


> I found that the Cardas upgrade cable made a very big difference to my listening experience.
> 
> I got a pair of HD800's a couple of months ago which is an upgrade to my HD650's.  I ordered the upgrade for the 800 right away because I remember the sonic difference it made to me when I got my 650.  So when I started listening to my new 800 with the stock cord, they sounded almost exactly like my 650 with the Cardas cord; and it was the upgrade cable that made the difference.  When my Cardas 800 upgrade cable arrived, it moved the 800 up a very big notch.
> 
> Quote:


----------



## sp70

Sennheiser is taking their sweet old time processing my order apparently. So its going to be a bit before I get my stock 650 cord sadly. sp70.


----------



## Lenni

I’ve asked myself the same question. meh, I should’ve known better than getting myself involved in some useless cable debate with some freaking ignorant cretin. I don’t know what’s got into me (live & learn I guess). never again. don't worry about it. nothing worth mentioning. 
  
  Quote: 





kuze said:


> I lol'd lots at this, i still can't see what in the world set this guy off.


----------



## Draca

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I’ve asked myself the same question. meh, I should’ve known better than getting myself involved in some useless cable debate with some *freaking ignorant cretin*. I don’t know what’s got into me (live & learn I guess). never again. don't worry about it. nothing worth mentioning.


 
   
  You really need to get banned. If you still haven't realised, your behaviour is completely unacceptable, and further, no-one actually agrees with you. 'Ignorant cretin' is a sadly ironic insult in your case.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





draca said:


> You really need to get banned. If you still haven't realised, your behaviour is completely unacceptable, and further, no-one actually agrees with you. 'Ignorant cretin' is a sadly ironic insult in your case.


 

 I actually understand and take his position as a reasonable, just not the insulting and name calling.  I'd personally never condone that, though in this case, I can understand why it happened.


----------



## Wildcard30

I found changing the stock cable to the Cardas Smurf Blue to give a warmer more detailed sound.


----------



## Draca

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I actually understand and take his position as a reasonable, just not the insulting and name calling.  I'd personally never condone that, though in this case, I can understand why it happened.


 

 Not even going to comment...


----------



## .Sup

I use Cardas cable to dry my laundry. It only takes 15 minutes for it to dry while with the rope I use normally it takes up to an hour. Placebo? I think not!
   

  Buy the cable, listen, sell it if you don't like it and don't forget to report back. The difference is so small its not worth 200$, the only thing what is good about it its shorter and purty. But you can make that by yourself.


----------



## Shark_Jump

Mmmmm,
   
  So your phones are SR80's yet you want to spend $200 on a cable?
   
  What do you think will give you more improvement for your buck, a $200 cable or a Headphone upgrade?
   
  Anyone who advises you to go for the cable is a 
[size=2.8em] charlatan[/size]​


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





shark_jump said:


> Mmmmm,
> 
> So your phones are SR80's yet you want to spend $200 on a cable?
> 
> ...


 

 lol check the topic title


----------



## sp70

No, the title of the thread is clearly "HD600 cable upgrade" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'm looking (or was) to upgrade the cable on my HD600s (its also in my sig.)
   
  I actually just received my HD650 cable "upgrade", for $19 I figure I can't go wrong. I'll report back with any difference I find. sp70.
  
  Quote: 





shark_jump said:


> Mmmmm,
> 
> So your phones are SR80's yet you want to spend $200 on a cable?
> 
> ...


----------



## Shark_Jump

Oh OK, sure $19 there is nothing to loose.
   
  But you did ask if $200+ cable makes a difference.​
   ​


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





shark_jump said:


> Oh OK, sure $19 there is nothing to loose.
> 
> But you did ask if $200+ cable makes a difference.​
> ​


 
  I bet it does as not all cables sound the same. The question is does it improve the SQ over a decent, well made cable? Hardly if any


----------



## Wildcard30

The Cardas cable are being sold for a $100 or less used on these forums so that isn't as bad.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sp70 said:


> I actually just received my HD650 cable "upgrade", for $19 I figure I can't go wrong. I'll report back with any difference I find. sp70.


 

 Did you order from Sennheiser?  If not, where did you get it?

  
  Quote: 





wildcard30 said:


> The Cardas cable are being sold for a $100 or less used on these forums so that isn't as bad.


 

 Does the used Cardas cable you're talking about sound $80 better than the Sennheiser replacement cable?


----------



## sp70

Yes, I ordered from Sennheiser. I originally started this thread to try and figure out if those expensive ($80 more, 200 more, whatever) really make any difference for what your paying. Thus far i've not gotten a) any great evidence that its worth the extra large sum or b) any overwhelming amount of even simple opinions that it is. So, i've just decided to go for the cheapest option and see for myself. Unless of course someone out there has some nice aftermarket HD600 cables they want to get rid of so I could review them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sp70.
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Did you order from Sennheiser?  If not, where did you get it?
> 
> 
> 
> Does the used Cardas cable you're talking about sound $80 better than the Sennheiser replacement cable?


----------



## Blorton

Well, I'm too late to join in the bashfest, but perhaps my experience may help.
   
  On my HD650, I tried several cables, and found that the Silver Dragon made a big difference over the stock cables. Much more detailed in the upper ranges and just more articulate overall. Of course, I drive them with a nice tube amp, so that makes a difference as well. To be fair, there was another cable whose name I forget that sounded just awful.
   
  Fwiw, I was born with a significant hearing loss and have to rely on terribad lowfi hearing aids to function in society(even though they cost thousands!). As a result, my ears are very well trained and picking out differences in SQ due to equipment changes is unfortunately too easy.


----------



## .Sup

Blorton could it be that the silver cables just make the sound brighter which then creates the illusion that music becomes more detailed?


----------



## sp70

Well after two days with my HD650 cable, I hate to say it, but I do hear a difference. I like what i'm hearing too, and hopefully things will change even more with a little bit of break in. Now, it all could be placebo, but I *think* I hear a difference. More bass, sparklier highs.
   
  Also no more occasional crackle sound I was getting with my old cable. At this point, i'd really be interested in auditioning some other cables just to simply see if I can hear anymore difference, though for now I think i'm pretty happy with my ~$20 cable upgrade.  sp70.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sp70 said:


> Well after two days with my HD650 cable, I hate to say it, but I do hear a difference. I like what i'm hearing too, and hopefully things will change even more with a little bit of break in. Now, it all could be placebo, but I *think* I hear a difference. More bass, sparklier highs.
> 
> Also no more occasional crackle sound I was getting with my old cable. At this point, i'd really be interested in auditioning some other cables just to simply see if I can hear anymore difference, though for now I think i'm pretty happy with my ~$20 cable upgrade.  sp70.


 

 Sounds like the original cable may have been defective, especially since you were hearing a crackle sound.


----------



## sp70

Only occasionally, like if i'd move the cable around alot. I think it was just starting to short. The sound wasn't bad to begin with, I wouldn't necessarily call it defective. sp70.
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Sounds like the original cable may have been defective, especially since you were hearing a crackle sound.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sp70 said:


> Only occasionally, like if i'd move the cable around alot. I think it was just starting to short. The sound wasn't bad to begin with, I wouldn't necessarily call it defective. sp70.


 

 Good luck with cables.  Your mileage will definitely vary there.
   
  As to the comments against such a venture, your mileage will definitely vary no matter what piece of gear you choose to get or improve on.  There are currently ongoing threads about the value of amps and dacs and that cheap solutions work just as well as the very expensive ones etc., etc....  very much like the stuff here about cables.  However, lest Head-fi perish, those threads don't garner nearly as much support on the 'no benefits' side of the fence as with cables.
   
  I'll leave your financial priorities to you.


----------



## Blasto_Brandino

I just got the price for a stock HD800 cable from Sennheiser; $160 HOLY CRAP! I could buy a used cardas for 100$ and reterminate the leads myself for ~$50
  but 19$ for the 650 cable, damn
  To the OP, if possible contact some of the cable techs here on Head-Fi, some can copy cables so you can save money.


----------



## kickassdude

Quote: 





.sup said:


> Blorton could it be that the silver cables just make the sound brighter which then creates the illusion that music becomes more detailed?


 

 It sounds brighter because of the cold silver colour.


----------



## sdfx

I've also heard that 6x0s with the silver dragon sound a little more neutral or articulate in mids and highs and the bass is a little less pronounced. I prefer the blue dragon to be honest the copper vs silver makes a difference.
   
  Blue dragon is cheaper too


----------



## 9pintube

Three Words for this post, LET IT BE........I enjoy my HD650 cable upgrade.........sorry if that bothers some members.......


----------



## fjf

You are not THAT important, my friend


----------



## flaming_june

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Did you order from Sennheiser?  If not, where did you get it?
> 
> 
> 
> Does the used Cardas cable you're talking about sound $80 better than the Sennheiser replacement cable?


 
  Again regarding his later posts, unless we have a blind test, it's impossible to remove bias from our impressions to decide if we would reject our null that there is no difference between stock and aftermarket.  I personally have tried to tests a few times with my cardas but my tests are still inconclusive as it's never a blind test.
   
  We just won't know for sure.


----------



## BIG POPPA

I own several Senn cables including the 600 and 650 cables. The Cardas is a much better. It doesn't sound crummy like the factory Senn cables. Very neutral sounding. It is an upgrade for sure compared 600 and 650 cables.


----------



## SP Wild

Hey Poppa.  Would cables of a more expensive and exotic construction offer subjective improvement over the Cardas cable - or are they just objectively a different flavor, not necessarily better technically...You know what I mean right?  I can get the Cardas in Australia relatively cheaply compared to ordering o/seas with the likes of Zu etc.  Cheers.


----------



## BIG POPPA

With Cardas they make their own wire and connectors. So the quality is there. If you are looking for a neutral sound Cardas is a good choice. A little boring for me. I would define the sound you are looking for in a Senn cable and go from there.


----------



## SP Wild

I am loving how my current tube amp.  It really opens the midrange like never before - the treble is so sweet but there is a little less of it - this tube amp infinitely sweetens the treble, but also rolls it off a touch.  I was thinking pure silver, less tempted with silver plated copper as I think they will take some of the midrange magic - perhaps a pure copper design will be able to open up the treble - I am not so sure.


----------



## 9pintube

SO SORRY "fjf"

  
  Quote: 





fjf said:


> You are not THAT important, my friend


 


 IF you're calling me "not that important", then I'm glad "that"never really bothered me in all of my 57yrs!  I do get a laugh out of others thinking of oneself as being important!......You can Rattle someone Else's chain,OK!    "Words Fell"--Lucinda Williams


----------



## Reputator

Quote: 





draca said:


> In another thread that you were involved in I'm pretty sure I was asked the same question, specifically relating to my experience with recabling my HD600s. I have tried four different cables (and stock) and _heard no difference of note_. The one I've settled on now is a custom recable from ebay that looks like some of the ALO recables at a fraction of the price and ironically still has a more expensive quarter inch plug than the ALO. Looks nice, sounds identical to stock. The other cables I tried were the Cardas, SAA, and a custom Kimber recable from ebay. I've also tried the HD650 cable which merely has a thicker plastic coating - _no difference in any of these in ABX tests._


 

 I do have to wonder how one would go about doing an ABX test with headphone cables. I'm assuming you have someone else there to switch the cables for you while you sit there blindfolded?


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





fjf said:


> You are not THAT important, my friend


 


 Hey fjf. it's your friend again!  I took the time to read every post on this poor guys OP, and you BIG DADDY and your comments are "OUT THERE"  maybe you need to go back and read your ramblings, but remember "This is from a "NOT THAT IMPORTANT PERSON"  SAD!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





flaming_june said:


> Again regarding his later posts, unless we have a blind test, it's impossible to remove bias from our impressions to decide if we would reject our null that there is no difference between stock and aftermarket.  I personally have tried to tests a few times with my cardas but my tests are still inconclusive as it's never a blind test.
> 
> We just won't know for sure.


 

 As long as this thread has deteriorated into name calling, I'm going to change the subject by asking flaming_j about his T-1 impressions. 
   
  f_j, I see you also have 880s, so, if you would, give us the rundown on the T-1s relative to the 880s.
   
  USG


----------



## Ruffle

HD650 user here with upgraded cable.  I went with the Ohno Cast pure copper cable, with a Furutech plug and Cardas connectors all of it braided.  So this is about as good as it gets...
   
  Cables are voodoo/snake oil IMO.  I don't mind using them and won't part with them, it's a fun thing to do if you like your headphones.
   
  But I can't vouch to say they make an ounce of difference.  It's placebo.  When you first get them, you'll think wow.  But after a while when you have a chance to listen, you'll realize the stock cables and upgraded sound the same.
   
  Also often I prefer the stock cable.  The stock cable is more flexible and lighter.  In many ways the stock cable is preferable and better.  All I would do is replace the plug with a Furutech plug.  Not that it will sound better, I just love the heft, weight and appearance of the Furutech plug.


----------



## SP Wild

Are you paying attention to the soundstage?


----------



## Solude

Is an aftermarket cable worth it on a 600?  No, not in 2010 anyway.  When they were tops it made sense, now that better cans can be had for granted more money its like pimping out a Camaro LT instead of buying the SS.
   
  That said the cable will make a difference but its minor especially on modest gear.  When I had the 650 I went through some different aftermarket cables comparing them against the others and to the stock.  Differences yes, massive sweaping easy to spot, point to graph type changes?  No.  Same for interconnects but good luck getting me to part with mine


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


solude said:


> Is an aftermarket cable worth it on a 600?  No, not in 2010 anyway.  When they were tops it made sense, now that better cans can be had for granted more money its like pimping out a Camaro LT instead of buying the SS.
> 
> That said the cable will make a difference but its minor especially on modest gear.  When I had the 650 I went through some different aftermarket cables comparing them against the others and to the stock.  Differences yes, massive sweaping easy to spot, point to graph type changes?  No.  Same for interconnects but good luck getting me to part with mine


 

 I have my HD600's at the office and love them... a lot.  I also own the HD800's and Ed8's.
   
  I don't agree with what you say since the HD600's are special in their own way and recabled, will better (for me at least), a lot of more expensive and current cans out there now.  The age of the HD600's and any other can for that matter, is a smoke screen that too many cannot see through and headphone manufacturers love this.


----------



## Solude

Different and better aren't the same word.  Should add I owned both the Senn 600 and 650.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





solude said:


> Is an aftermarket cable worth it on a 600?  No, not in 2010 anyway.  When they were tops it made sense, now that better cans can be had for granted more money its like pimping out a Camaro LT instead of buying the SS.


 

 Quote:


solude said:


> Different and better aren't the same word.  Should add I owned both the Senn 600 and 650.


 

 Whatever. I still disagree with the paragraph I'm quoting again above. 
   
  Just for the record.  You don't recommend the cable.  I do.  That's all.


----------



## Solude

For the record I don't recommend the cable on the rig in question.  The other truth is that 10 years ago a cable for the Senn 600 was $100, now not so much.
   
  I liked my Senn 650, I liked it better with the Cardas but I already had exhausted my search of cans and had a solid source and amp as well.


----------



## fjf

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Hey fjf. it's your friend again!  I took the time to read every post on this poor guys OP, and you BIG DADDY and your comments are "OUT THERE"  maybe you need to go back and read your ramblings, but remember "This is from a "NOT THAT IMPORTANT PERSON"  SAD!


 

 I see my arrow got the target! 

  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> As long as this thread has deteriorated into name calling, I'm going to change the subject by asking flaming_j about his T-1 impressions.
> 
> f_j, I see you also have 880s, so, if you would, give us the rundown on the T-1s relative to the 880s.
> 
> USG


 
   
  Sorry, dont have a T1 to compare!.


----------



## BIG POPPA




----------



## Young Spade

You are going to get a lot of varying responses about this question. Personally, I have went and bought a custom cable for my K702s and I instantly noticed the results when using them.
   
  I think that if you get a high quality cable you will see results. However compared to other pieces of equipment I think cables are some of the lowest price/performance ratio pieces in the chain. 
   
  I would say to only spend the money if you don't want to spend it on any other piece of equipment in your system. If you can use that to upgrade your amps or source then I'd go for that.


----------



## Uncle Erik

I used to own the HD-600 and HD-650. I bought both the Cardas and Blue Dragon replacement cables. I tried both headphones with both cables as well as the two stock cables.

 There was absolutely no difference between the four cables on either headphone, though several amps.

 I put the cables on the DMM and the old Tektronix 'scope.

 Again, nothing.

 I sold all of them to purchase the HD-800.

 There never has been - and never will be - a scrap of evidence supporting cable "differences." This has been an ongoing fight for more than 30 years and nothing has ever been established to lend credibility to these claims.

 "I hear a difference" is not evidence. This is true because no one can hear a difference if they cannot see the cable.

 If anyone disagrees, the only way you will settle this argument is if you provide valid test results from scientific equipment or show that you can pass a blind test. Dancing around those is intellectually dishonest.

 If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. If you can't hear it blind, it doesn't exist.


----------



## Draca

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> I used to own the HD-600 and HD-650. I bought both the Cardas and Blue Dragon replacement cables. I tried both headphones with both cables as well as the two stock cables.
> 
> There was absolutely no difference between the four cables on either headphone, though several amps.
> 
> ...


 

 Word.


----------



## Lenni




----------



## BIG POPPA

This is where Uncle Eric and I disagree. With my gear I can tell a difference with cables. Especially Senn cables. He prefers scientific evidence. I prefer the smile on my face between what works and doesn't. I say tomato, Uncle Eric says tomatoe. No big deal.


----------



## grokit

Maybe my HD-600s were somehow indeed different, but my first pair gave me headaches with their bright treble peaks and had stock cables. I had purchased them new, and really tried to get used to them, to break them in, to break my ears in and finally sold them. Then I bought a used pair with a Cardas cable, and they were much smoother, no fatigue. The Cardas was too long, so I bought a couple of lower-end ($100 -$120 each) shorter cables with different terminations, they were still smooth. I just think there is plenty of room for improvement on the stock HD600 cable, even the stock HD650 cable is much better. I don't think the Cardas sounded any better than the two "lesser" upgrade cables, and the HD650 cable I tried still sounded better than my old stock pair, they were somewhere in between. I have not tried the stock HD600 cable on my current pair though so my results are very unscientific!


----------



## Solude

The interesting part being that Uncle is where you typically start looking at cables and Poppa still has room for gains in amp/source.  Personally I think cables matter, but its in that last 2% sonically.  Its there and I do very focused listening and note taking to characterize cables but it is a tiny change because frankly at best, the cable can do no harm.  Even cheap cable come pretty close to not being there so the room for improvement is small.


----------



## fjf

The cable has be thick enough to carry the current and shielded enough to avoid electrical noise.  Taking into account how cheap this can be accomplished, only a REALLY stupid manufacturer would shut himself in the foot by using a bad cable.  The rest is just business men selling snake oil and lots of ignorance among the buyers.  But is a free market, this is legitimate.  If you do not want to be scammed, go and learn.  The least discriminatory part in an audio system is the human auditory system.  People is often surprised about how poor our real discriminatory ability is when tested.  You may be able to measure small differences between cables, but nobody can hear that much.


----------



## Noumenon

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I usually take what *“scientists” say with a pinch of salt*. To me *some scientists seem like religious fanatics. It’s all about proof – if it can’t be measured it’s not real, or something like that*. And when they bump into something that cannot be explained they’ll make up some ridiculous theory for it. Fact! you see, I’m not interested in hearing some *dumbass scientific theory*.


 


_"Facts (?!), pssst,... Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -- Homer J. Simpson._


----------



## Noumenon

Quote: 





fjf said:


> The cable has be thick enough to carry the current and shielded enough to avoid electrical noise.  Taking into account how cheap this can be accomplished, only a REALLY stupid manufacturer would shut himself in the foot by using a bad cable.


 


 Exactly, who would believe that Sennheiser would spend R&D $$$ to such effect only to undermine everything by using a subpar cable. If the cable mattered THAT much Sennheiser would supply a better cable and tack on the cost to the HP.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> This is where Uncle Eric and I disagree. With my gear I can tell a difference with cables. Especially Senn cables. He prefers scientific evidence. I prefer the smile on my face between what works and doesn't. I say tomato, Uncle Eric says tomatoe. No big deal.


 

 Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


----------



## Young Spade

Quote: 





noumenon said:


> Exactly, who would believe that Sennheiser would spend R&D $$$ to such effect only to undermine everything by using a subpar cable. If the cable mattered THAT much Sennheiser would supply a better cable and tack on the cost to the HP.


 
  You have to remember though, Sennheiser is a company and like all companies, it's all about the bottom line. I'm not saying that they would use a subpar cable to go with headphones they spent a lot of R&D on BUT that doesn't mean they would go for the "best" cable they have available. 
   
  Maybe... just maybe they went for the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality? Just because something isn't bad doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives out there.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





young spade said:


> You have to remember though, Sennheiser is a company and like all companies, it's all about the bottom line. I'm not saying that they would use a subpar cable to go with headphones they spent a lot of R&D on BUT that doesn't mean they would go for the "best" cable they have available.
> 
> Maybe... just maybe they went for the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality? Just because something isn't bad doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives out there.


 

 But measuring sound quality is subjective, so how do you get "the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality?"


----------



## Noumenon

Well, that's what I suspect, ...that Sennheiser went with a cable "that didn't hinder the sound quality", ...so that if the stock cable "didn't hinder the sound quality", how could an after market cable make the SQ better? It would have to have added SQ not already present, which doesn't make sense.



 The other point is that Sennheiser doesn't sell cheap HP, so if the concept of a better wire made sense, they would have included it and made the same profit margin off of it, by adding it to the cost. In other words the "better cable" would have been another item for Senn to make money off of.


----------



## Young Spade

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> But measuring sound quality is subjective, so how do you get "the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality?"


 
  You get a very high quality cable and either have a set group of people listen or you do it through the use of computers. Make graphs of sound waves and whatnot with the cable and gradually move down the line until you get to a cable that starts to cause more and more distortion than the one before it. 
   
  You stop at the cheapest cable that causes the least amount of audible distortion. 
   
  But I'm sure they would use this method to test other things that take different materials like tires for race cars... oil...etc.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





young spade said:


> You get a very high quality cable and either have a set group of people listen or you do it through the use of computers. Make graphs of sound waves and whatnot with the cable and gradually move down the line until you get to a cable that starts to cause more and more distortion than the one before it.
> 
> You stop at the cheapest cable that causes the least amount of audible distortion.
> 
> But I'm sure they would use this method to test other things that take different materials like tires for race cars... oil...etc.


 

 I wonder if Sennheiser have done blind testing of cables. If they have then they have gone with a cheap to make but perfectly serviceable cable, such as the cables that do as well as far more expensive ones in blind tests. Or else they have used computers and found that found that measurements have no correlation with subjectively perceived sound quality.


----------



## bridge8989

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


 

 dont even bother arguing with him; he believes in power cables.
   
  Ive briefly tried ALO Cryoed silver(~$400 cable) v. stock on HD650 amped with an isabellina hpa and honestly couldn't tell them apart.  Maybe if I listened a bit longer but the difference must have been <5%.  Definitely not worth more than the cost of the headphones.  The amp sounds incredible though :]


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Just asking a few questions, thats all......


----------



## Lenni

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> There never has been - and never will be - a scrap of evidence supporting cable "differences." This has been an ongoing fight for more than 30 years and nothing has ever been established to lend credibility to these claims.
> 
> "I hear a difference" is not evidence. This is true because no one can hear a difference if they cannot see the cable.
> 
> ...


 
   

  I wondering … does this placebo effect work for everybody, or only on some people? if I hear differences is placebo - but I can easily say that if you don’t hear a difference is because you don’t want to hear a difference, and is placebo. or are you immune to placebo? “I don’t hear a difference” is not evidence either.
   
  At the end of the day personally I’m more interested in what a difference I hear than whether a machine will says it makes a difference or not. You don’t - fair enough.
  I don’t deny that in some circumstances placebo maybe plays a possibility factor, and that some cable company may sell snake oil (Monster Cable to name one, imo), but I will absolutely not accept that every cable is the same, or make no difference. that is just not true. I can assure you the differences I heard in my system with some cables (not all) are very real and worth.


  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> This is where Uncle Eric and I disagree. With my gear I can tell a difference with cables. Especially Senn cables. He prefers scientific evidence. I prefer the smile on my face between what works and doesn't. I say tomato, Uncle Eric says tomatoe. No big deal.


 

 x2

  
  Quote: 





noumenon said:


> _"Facts (?!), pssst,... Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -- Homer J. Simpson._


 

 EXACTLY! ...lol


----------



## Young Spade

x2 Lenni.


----------



## eucariote

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I wondering … does this placebo effect work for everybody, or only on some people? if I hear differences is placebo - but I can easily say that if you don’t hear a difference is because you don’t want to hear a difference, and is placebo. or are you immune to placebo? “I don’t hear a difference” is not evidence either.


 

 They're artifacts of multisensory integration- which brings values values and even audio hallucinations from other senses.  They're not conscious or willful - nobody is immune.  The standard control (in all publishable scientific observations) for minimizing the confounding influence from other senses is with blind tests.  Or cutting out your thalamus.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


bridge8989 said:


> dont even bother arguing with him; he believes in power cables.
> 
> Ive briefly tried ALO Cryoed silver(~$400 cable) v. stock on HD650 amped with an isabellina hpa and honestly couldn't tell them apart.  Maybe if I listened a bit longer but the difference must have been <5%.  Definitely not worth more than the cost of the headphones.  The amp sounds incredible though :]


 

 Funny... that was one cable that I particularly did not like with the HD650's.  Despite the price.  I've heard differences with a few cables .... I've not heard differences with others.  Turns out that the one that I did not like was the most expensive.


----------



## grokit

In medicine (where the term originated), placebo has actually cured disease and alleviated pain, which is the "effect"; it's a very powerful form of suggestion


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


 

 To me it is not practical. Have not found any DBT booths at the local Hi-Fi shops. DBT has never been important to me with my gear.


----------



## goober-george

Perception is reality? And everyone's perception is different? You also can't trust the human senses, like when people report a crime scene and describe the criminal 50 different ways.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> To me it is not practical. Have not found any DBT booths at the local Hi-Fi shops. DBT has never been important to me with my gear.


 

 It's not practical because it's not important? Or it's not practical because Hi-Fi shops wouldn't dare cut into their profit margins by convincing shoppers that their own high-end wares are snake oil? Or what?
   
  Why is it not practical?


----------



## BIG POPPA

It has nothing to do with cutting into profit. Walmart doesn't use DBT's to sell their electronics and they're the cheapest retailer. I guess ignorance is bliss? If I want to purchase something I purchase it. Do not need a DBT to justify the purchase. Yes I have done my homework and auditioning when ever possible. It is funny if someone does not understand something in this hobby it is labeled "snake oil". If DBT's were practical they would by mass marketed and readily available with a retail network? Until then..............


----------



## kite7

Question, if cables make a difference then why is it that the wiring inside amplifiers and DACs thin and appears to be nothing special? Wouldn't that be a bottleneck?


----------



## BIG POPPA

That depends on the manufacturer


----------



## kite7

They're all about the same from what I've seen. The wire from the RCA to the circuit board is really thin, for example this one
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DAC19/DAC19D2.jpg
   
  You could have the most expensive cable going into the RCA input but the signal still travels through a cable of arguable quality that is connecting the RCA jacks to the circuit board.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Thankfully I didn't get one of those. Lets get back to the Senn cables please.


----------



## kite7

The Audio-GD DAC19 does seem to a DAC that is liked here in this forum. You'd be surprised how many DACs and amplifiers have thin cabling inside, yet I don't see much discussion about recabling those 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  sp70, for $16 you're not losing much by trying out a cable. I personally didn't notice any differences with the stock cable vs HD650 one


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> It has nothing to do with cutting into profit. Walmart doesn't use DBT's to sell their electronics and they're the cheapest retailer. I guess ignorance is bliss? If I want to purchase something I purchase it. Do not need a DBT to justify the purchase. Yes I have done my homework and auditioning when ever possible. It is funny if someone does not understand something in this hobby it is labeled "snake oil". If DBT's were practical they would by mass marketed and readily available with a retail network? Until then..............


 

 To which electronics do you refer? Some electronics, like TVs, are set up right next to one another, so poor sensory memory doesn't apply as much and a DBT is unnecessary to form an unbiased preference. Some electronics, like cell phones, are entirely about user satisfaction, and differ in what they can and cannot do so will be preferred by certain people. Some electronics, like computers, have measured specifications which are displayed and can be used to judge performance.
   
  Cables (and other audio equipment) require switching so memory is an issue. They all do the same thing, so special needs are nonexistent. They have no published specs except those like capacitance which may or may not have any bearing on audible sound, unlike computer specs which tell relatively how well it performs at what it's supposed to do.
   
  Name an electronics product (barring audio equipment of course!) which is sold at Wal-Mart that you believe needs to be blind-tested to be fair.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Isn't this hobby about user satisfaction? Point being with DBT and retailers, until the mass market accepts DBT's as the norm you will never see them in the mainstream. People who prefer DBT's is such a niche market, it hasn't been sustainable at any means this point in time. Not saying sometime in the future it may have its place. With Senn cables it is not that complicated. You buy one and like it, you keep it. You don't, take it back just like anything else you buy. What is so hard about that? Really?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Isn't this hobby about user satisfaction? Point being with DBT and retailers, until the mass market accepts DBT's as the norm you will never see them in the mainstream. People who prefer DBT's is such a niche market, it hasn't been sustainable at any means this point in time. Not saying sometime in the future it may have its place. With Senn cables it is not that complicated. You buy one and like it, you keep it. You don't, take it back just like anything else you buy. What is so hard about that? Really?


 

 You didn't answer my question.
   
  People who buy after-market cables are a niche market too, but it's well supplied. Why? Because there's tons of profit in it. No profit in proper DBTs because they do nothing but lay sound quality bare with no influence from the price tag. It's not good for a business if your $10,000 speakers lose in a DBT to $2,000 ones. Same with cables. Manufacturers and resellers are afraid a store- or meet-based DBT will shatter the illusion before it reveals value.
   
  What is so hard about proving that the differences you hear are real? Really? Because you guys do nothing but dance around that issue. Satisfaction relies on the illusion being maintained. If I buy an expensive cable and like it, then it's revealed that it makes no real difference, I'm not going to be happy anymore. I'd rather be sure before I buy. Like I've said before in another thread, why would I buy an expensive vacuum which is "claimed" to be vastly superior to other brands even though no proof is given, just because I _might _like it? Who spends $200 on a product because they _might_ like it?


----------



## BIG POPPA

You are talking to someone who makes his own Senn cables and goes many Head-fi meets a year. Create a conspirecy all you want. It is not really like that in the real world. There are reputable cable makers as well as thieves. But isn't EVERYTHING ELSE like that too? I can name some Headphone amp makers off the top of my head. If you can't handle an aftermarket Senn cable don't buy one. Nobody is physically twisting your arm.


----------



## BIG POPPA

200 hundy is nothing to spend on something to try out. I spend a whole lot more on my wife hoping she likes what I have bought her.


----------



## ULTRA-HARMONICS

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> 200 hundy is nothing to spend on something to try out. I spend a whole lot more on my wife hoping she likes what I have bought her.


 

 +1 ......


----------



## Blasto_Brandino

I had a Kimber PBJ custom cable made for my HD650's (and I have a Markl Adrenaline on the way for the 800's) and I bought a "Y" headphone splitter and compared the two cables (Stock vs kimber), AT THE SAME TIME one side on one cable, the other side on the other cable then switched them, and trust me THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! And about the HD600's, I don't care what anyone says, the HD650's IMO didn't "replace" the HD600's I think they are Equal, just different. It depends what you are looking for. I plan on buying the HD600's asap, but I've got some things in the way.....


----------



## bridge8989

Quote: 





			
				BIG POPPA said:
			
		

> Thankfully I didn't get one of those. Lets get back to the Senn cables please.


 
   
  you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. LMAO look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. LMAO look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.


 

 great post


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> To me it is not practical. Have not found any DBT booths at the local Hi-Fi shops. DBT has never been important to me with my gear.


 

 If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.


----------



## JaZZ

ruffle said:


> Cables are voodoo/snake oil IMO.  I don't mind using them and won't part with them, it's a fun thing to do if you like your headphones.
> 
> But I can't vouch to say they make an ounce of difference. It's placebo. When you first get them, you'll think wow. But after a while when you have a chance to listen, you'll realize the stock cables and upgraded sound the same.


 

 Every poster here should only speak for himself. I don't share your specific «cables = snake oil» experience, so please don't speak for me!

  


uncle erik said:


> I used to own the HD-600 and HD-650. I bought both the Cardas and Blue Dragon replacement cables. I tried both headphones with both cables as well as the two stock cables. There was absolutely no difference between the four cables on either headphone, though several amps.
> 
> There never has been - and never will be - a scrap of evidence supporting cable "differences." This has been an ongoing fight for more than 30 years and nothing has ever been established to lend credibility to these claims.
> "I hear a difference" is not evidence. This is true because no one can hear a difference if they cannot see the cable. If anyone disagrees, the only way you will settle this argument is if you provide valid test results from scientific equipment or show that you can pass a blind test. Dancing around those is intellectually dishonest.
> ...


 

 Dear Uncle Eric... I'm sure you know the rules of this forum vey well. You're just trying (again) how far you can go until the moderators feel the need for intervention, right? _(Keyword DBT-Free Forum)_
  
   


prog rock man said:


> Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


 

 The same goes for everyone else. There's a sub-forum for a scientific approach to audio (and you know it).
   


> I wonder if Sennheiser have done blind testing of cables. If they have then they have gone with a cheap to make but perfectly serviceable cable, such as the cables that do as well as far more expensive ones in blind tests. Or else they have used computers and found that found that measurements have no correlation with subjectively perceived sound quality.


 

 After all Sennheiser has taken care for a good cable on their current flagship. That doesn't mean it doesn't get even better, though. I own an expensive HD 800 aftermarket cable – the DHC Clone – which is too dull for my taste and my modded HD 800, thus I like the stock cable better. But also one that is a better match to my ears – the Silver Dragon.

  


> .Originally Posted by *eucariote* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> They're artifacts of multisensory integration- which brings values values and even audio hallucinations from other senses.  They're not conscious or willful - nobody is immune.  The standard control (in all publishable scientific observations) for minimizing the confounding influence from other senses is with blind tests. Or cutting out your thalamus.


 
   


goober-george said:


> Perception is reality? And everyone's perception is different? You also can't trust the human senses, like when people report a crime scene and describe the criminal 50 different ways.


 
   
  You know, the rule is there for a reason. Please respect it as well as you can! It's annoying for people searching for specific advice to be bombed with ideologic credos instead of personal experience, which this place is made for. You can use your well-known playground for exchanging the former.
   
   


head injury said:


> It's not practical because it's not important? Or it's not practical because Hi-Fi shops wouldn't dare cut into their profit margins by convincing shoppers that their own high-end wares are snake oil? Or what? Why is it not practical?


 

 Blind tests are time-consuming and laborious, and they're not necessary for selling cables, as you may know very well. I don't do blind test with cables myself, nor with any other gear.

  


kite7 said:


> Question, if cables make a difference then why is it that the wiring inside amplifiers and DACs thin and appears to be nothing special? Wouldn't that be a bottleneck?


 

 They're not really a bottleneck, just another source of (perceived) signal degradation. And in contrast to interconnects and headphone cables they're not easily swappable. That's the reason why I (and I guess most others) renounce caring about them. Just as little as the wiring used in the recording studio. Apparently this generous approach works for me and many others. I have recabled a Stax SRM-T1, though, with full success. It sounded clearly smoother and more refined with the new (homemade) silver/copper magnet-wire cables. Note that this amp uses very long internal cables, so recabling particularly pays off! Of course I have to further live with the PCBs there, but you can't have the perfect sound anyway, so I just care for what's influenceable, not for the impossible.

  


head injury said:


> Cables (and other audio equipment) require switching so memory is an issue. They all do the same thing, so special needs are nonexistent. They have no published specs except those like capacitance which may or may not have any bearing on audible sound, unlike computer specs which tell relatively how well it performs at what it's supposed to do.


 

 In other words: you haven't experienced real differences from cables... That would have been a simple and clear way to put it. (Ideologies are boring!)
  
   


prog rock man said:


> If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.


 

 You create the rules for evaluating cables, but fail to observe the well-known rules around here. I for one evaluate and audition cables under real-world conditions to see if they fulfill my expectations under real-world conditions. The same procedure as with every other category of audio gear.
   
   
  And finally my recommendation to the thread starter. With my now experience, in your shoes, I would probably invest the money in a source, amp or headphone upgrade – simply because it offers higher value for the money. Cable upgrades are the last station after the rest of the chain is close (enough) to the own sonic ideal. That said, I have upgraded the cables on both HD 600 and HD 650, and it was worth it to me. But that was before the HD 800 / T 1 / LCD-2 era, when the old Sennheisers represented a sonic characteristic coser to my ideal than most other headphones. If you insist in a new cable: Zu Mobius and Silver Dragon were my favorites.
.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

JaZZ, I have not created any rules as you accuse me of "You create the rules for evaluating cables, but fail to observe the well-known rules around here." I was making a suggestion in keeping with the direction that this thread has taken. BIG POPPA is not bound to do what I say and for you to suggest such is a nonsense. 
   
  With regards to forum rules, fair enough, sorry to the OP for drifting into DBT in this thread. But to answer your original question is it worth it, the answer is no for reasons we are not allowed to discuss here.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> With regards to forum rules, fair enough, sorry to the OP for drifting into DBT in this thread. But to answer your original question is it worth it, the answer is no for reasons we are not allowed to discuss here.


 

 Is it ever really a discussion?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Yes I do have the original, 650 cable, and a few others. I listen to my gear more then enough to know which cable I am listening to. I am not a casual listener. Averaging 3-4 hours a day 7 days a week. Do know the strengths and weakness' of my rig. ABX and DBT's will keep me from enjoying the music I desire. Not afraid to upgrade my Senn cable. That is why I have a few to choose from.
  
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





jazz said:


> In other words: you haven't experienced real differences from cables... That would have been a simple and clear way to put it. (Ideologies are boring!)


 

 That's not what I said at all, and I'm really surprised that that's what you got out of it.
   
  I said that, unlike other electronics, there's no way to reliably and consistently spot real differences in the performance of a cable. Because audio memory and bias gets in the way of AB comparisons, they all serve the same function, and because the specs tell us nothing.
   
  Purely subjective differences (like you're mentioning in your response, rather than real differences) are a separate beast entirely, and something I didn't touch on in my post because the post was meant to compare the need of blind tests in cables to POPPA's proposed blind tests in other electronics. Other electronics are not as affected by subjective differences because most of their differences are proven real.
   
  POPPA, you don't have to DBT every time you listen to music. Just once (well, once over 20 tests) to prove you can hear differences. If that's going to get in the way of your future enjoyment, that's almost an admission that it'll ruin the illusion for you.


----------



## BIG POPPA

That is not mine. My amp is very modded from Jack.
  
  Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. LMAO look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> That is not mine. My amp is very modded from Jack.


 

 Pics plzzz.
   
  I'm fully expecting an amp with quarter-inch thick cables running throughout, so don't disappoint


----------



## BIG POPPA

Never seen 1/4 inch cables? What gauge is that? How much power is that designed for? Is that cable specifically designed for the load of the headphone amp? Do you know what type of wire Jack uses for his amps?


----------



## Head Injury

It was a joke, hence the smiley (this one ---> 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## BIG POPPA

Yeah I can get a little sarcastic myself. It is all good Head Injury.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Never seen 1/4 inch cables? What gauge is that? How much power is that designed for? Is that cable specifically designed for the load of the headphone amp? Do you know what type of wire Jack uses for his amps?


 

 Be that as it may, I do find it interesting that one would assume that one bottle neck makes any other bottleneck immaterial and without influence on the overall effect.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. LMAO look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.


 
  I'd much prefer the wire (Thin cheap wire as you called it) to a RCA jack that is "TRACE SOLDERED" to a circuit board!!.... I'll bet you some after market HD phone cables that the wire in your picture of the woo is a silver Teflon coated for carrying the signal. The other wires are probably copper teflon or heavier pvc coated wires  that carry the power from the transformer/s and tube sockets etc....This is JMO,(It's the way my amp builder "Builds") but give me point to point wired equipment any day over your circuit boards with most components "Pinned" to the board and don't forget about all that "Trace soldering" carrying your important power and source info.......A good engineer designs and lays out his wire with its different conductors and gauges for a reason, Don't you think??.... Woo Makes some fine "stuff" from what I've seen,heard and read on several post......I'm still on your side BIG POPPA!,.... to me the truth is in what each of us HEAR!  Call me crazy if you must, just don't call me late to dinner or a HEAD-FI MEET!


----------



## Drumonron

First of all, there are some that say a cable swap makes no difference and it is some kind of psych game.  There are those that will say given the circumstances of a cable swap, one could never completely tell the difference.  My question is, if I take your example that the conditions of swapping cables does not permit one's mind from computing a difference, how does one tell the difference from swapping headphones? 
   
  Well, and this is in response to the original Poster's question. I have an hd600 and I did get an aftermarket cable and it is the SAA Equinox(now called the E series).  It opens up the headphone and gave me a much better presentation with better lows and smoother highs.
   
  My story:  I bought an HD600 then listened for several months, decided to invest in a HP cable and bought a HD650 Senn cable then listened for several months, wanted another upgrade and purchased the Stefan Audio Art Equinox...amazing difference both times.  But I loved the SAA Equinox the most.
   
  Anyhow, so months more go buy and along comes the HD800.  I bit and decided to sell off the HD600 w/Equinox.  Long and short....while I love the HD800(that's another topic in and of itself) I missed the presentation that the 600 kit offered, so I purchased a new hd600.  I let it break in but something was missing from my memory(even though there are those armchair head-fi psychologists that say I have no audio memory)....off I went to purchase another SAA Equinox....it arrived and .... oh yeah, It was like slipping on an old pair of broken in jeans.  One thing I will say to keep the conversation balanced, is the Equinox is a bit microphonic.
   
  Lastly, the SAA Equinox also offers a visual improvement. 
   
  Hey....it isn't voodoo....it's my ears and I hear a huge difference.
  My name is Drumonron and yes, cables DO make a difference.(sitting down now)
   
  Over to you Bob.


----------



## 9pintube

Drumonron and the other cable upgrade believers, for the life of me I can not understand the Non-believers that can not see or hear our point........It's what each of us hear or THINK we hear that makes the difference, doesn't it!    I'm not telling My buddy, Head Injury, and the others that his thoughts on No DBT are wrong or that he must be missing something that "WE'RE hearing, I'm just saying (preaching) if you will.  To Each His Own, and to just enjoy you music....the way You love it.


----------



## TheAttorney

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Be that as it may, I do find it interesting that one would assume that one bottle neck makes any other bottleneck immaterial and without influence on the overall effect.


 

 This is an interesting point and one that forever puzzles me. Yet time and time again, it's proven valid (to my satisfaction) that a single change in one part of the chain can be heard despite there being several apparently bigger bottlenecks elsewere. For example, when I upgraded my 1metre expensive interconnect to an even more expensive 1 metre one, at the same time I doubled the length of my modestly priced Stax HP cable from 2.5 metres to 5 metres. You may have thought that doubling the length of the more modest cable would have swamped the effects of the interconnect. Yet the overall improvement was obvious (to my total satisfaction).


----------



## eucariote

Quote: 





> You know, the rule is there for a reason. Please respect it as well as you can! It's annoying for people searching for specific advice to be bombed with ideologic credos instead of personal experience, which this place is made for. You can use your well-known playground for exchanging the former.
> .


 
   
  You assume too little..  I own HD600, stock and upgrade cables.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'd hope that answering direct questions ('is the effect universal') is allowed in the forum, while actually doing the unspeakable is for the other forum.


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> ...it's proven valid (to my satisfaction) that a single change in one part of the chain can be heard despite there being several apparently bigger bottlenecks elsewere...


 

 ...not to speak of electronics components (and cables) shining through the comparably massive inaccuracies of sound transducers!
.


----------



## JaZZ

prog rock man said:


> JaZZ, I have not created any rules as you accuse me of "You create the rules for evaluating cables, but fail to observe the well-known rules around here." I was making a suggestion in keeping with the direction that this thread has taken. BIG POPPA is not bound to do what I say and for you to suggest such is a nonsense.


 

 I was assuming that you consider every other method inappropriate and a key to self-delusion. Am I completely wrong? – However, nothing personal! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, I needed some striking keywords (...rules to rules...).

  


> Originally Posted by *Head Injury* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> That's not what I said at all, and I'm really surprised that that's what you got out of it.
> 
> ...


 

 You keep on talking about DBT, whereas this corner of the forum is dedicated to exchanging listening experiences. (I suppose you know the Science forum, right?) – If my wording/interpretation was inaccurate, it's due to the lack of corresponding on-topic information from your part.
.


----------



## JaZZ

eucariote said:


> You assume too little..  I own HD600, stock and upgrade cables.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 With a bit of goodwill you would understand the reason for the DBT ban in this part of the forum: It's for detracting the basis for someone's pretension that his or her experience/approach/belief/ideology be universally and exclusively valid.
.


----------



## Draca

Quote: 





jazz said:


> With a bit of goodwill you would understand the reason for the DBT ban in this part of the forum: It's for detracting the basis for someone's pretension that his or her experience/approach/belief/ideology be universally and exclusively valid.
> .


 

 JaZZ you don't believe in gravity either right?
   
  'nuff said.


----------



## Drumonron

I hope the lot of us were some help to the OP.
   
  I'd exit by saying that IF and only IF you feel the rest of your system's rig is upgraded, I would then proceed with the headphone cable upgrade and it's at that point I heard a plethora of changes in MY HD600.
   
  I wish you the best and above all....simply take some time out to pause and listen and finally, enjoy each of your upgrades.
   
  It really is a rewarding and fun hobby.


----------



## sampson_smith

I just want to ring in an say that I am very pleased with the improvement that a HD650 cable makes over the stock HD600 one. To me, it seems the soundstage is a bit more open and the bass, more rich and controlled. This fix represents the cheapest (and most convenient?) way to improve the SQ of the trusty HD600. I am currently loving the $%&* out of these cans! Blissful listening going on!


----------



## Shahrose

Upgrading the HD600/HD650 cable is worth it IME. If you have atleast half decent gear and relatively trained ears, you should be able to reliably discern an improvement over the stock cable.
   
  Changing wire material makes the largest difference (ie. copper to silver) but getting a better quality UP-OCC cable will yield improvements too as long as you have good quality ancillaries.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Drumonron and the other cable upgrade believers, for the life of me I can not understand the Non-believers that can not see or hear our point........It's what each of us hear or THINK we hear that makes the difference, doesn't it!    I'm not telling My buddy, Head Injury, and the others that his thoughts on No DBT are wrong or that he must be missing something that "WE'RE hearing, I'm just saying (preaching) if you will.  To Each His Own, and to just enjoy you music....the way You love it.


 
   
  You got it all wrong.  Some believers like you will say that cables make a difference in what you hear, but most cable-believers will insist that cables makes a difference in the actual sound that your headphone reproduces.
  Make note the difference.
   
  Few nonbelievers argue against the fact that changing cables will change what you hear.  Most of us including me will only argue against the fact that cables change the sound that your headphone reproduces.
   
   
  Heres an example.  You can view a piece of artwork in two different settings and what you interpret from that artwork may be different.  However the painting itself will still be identical.


----------



## BIG POPPA

You make it so complicated when it is not.
  Quote: 





jamesl said:


> You got it all wrong.  Some believers like you will say that cables make a difference in what you hear, but most cable-believers will insist that cables makes a difference in the actual sound that your headphone reproduces.
> Make note the difference.
> 
> Few nonbelievers argue against the fact that changing cables will change what you hear.  Most of us including me will only argue against the fact that cables change the sound that your headphone reproduces.
> ...


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> You make it so complicated when it is not.


 

 Here's a simplified version for you:
   
  Cables make no physically audible difference.
   
  A slightly less simplified version (you can do it!):
   
  Cables make no physically audible difference, only psychologically audible ones.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Copper sounds different than SPC. Silver sounds different than Copper or SPC. They are different metals with different compositions. There is no way they sound the same. Some are too cheap to find out though? LOL


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Copper sounds different than SPC. Silver sounds different than Copper or SPC. They are different metals with different compositions. There is no way they sound the same. Some are too cheap to find out though? LOL


 
   
  Was it not simple enough for you?
   
  It's not the material that sounds different. It's you knowing what material it is.
   
  sampson_smith and shahrose, thanks so much for reviving this waste of time


----------



## BIG POPPA

The metal makes all the difference.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> The metal makes all the difference.


 

 Or at least your brain thinks it does. See what I'm getting at?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Yes I see where you are getting at. Why don't you try some different Senn Cables? Hear for yourself instead of arguing every little thing without any experience with any aftermarket or DIY Senn cables?
  
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> Or at least your brain thinks it does. See what I'm getting at?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Yes I see where you are getting at. Why don't you try some different Senn Cables? Hear for yourself instead of arguing every little thing without any experience with any aftermarket or DIY Senn cables?


 

 I'm not refuting that they make a psychological difference. So no, you don't.
   
  And experiencing a difference without accounting for psychological bias does not prove physical differences, so sighted experience on my part wouldn't affect my position.


----------



## grokit

This whole thread, lol


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





head injury said:


> I'm not refuting that they make a psychological difference. So no, you don't.
> 
> And experiencing a difference without accounting for psychological bias does not prove physical differences, so sighted experience on my part wouldn't affect my position.


 
   
  Careful now...I suspect one day you'll end up eating crow...
   
  If you're so sure, why not go and actually try these cables for yourself. Your opinions hold no water without the requisite experience.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> If you're so sure, why not go and actually try these cables for yourself. Your opinions hold no water without the requisite experience.


 

 I explained that the exact opposite was true in the very post you quoted. Did you read it?
   
  When real evidence comes out that supports real differences, then I'll call myself wrong openly. However, since I've been asking _for_ that evidence, my position is a little more flexible than those who just ignore all the evidence that's out there now. Like, erm, cable believers. I'm actively searching to prove or disprove my position. You (used in the plural) are wallowing in stagnant, willfully ignorant waters, to continue the aqua analogies.


----------



## beeman458

So much for the debate free statement regarding this forum.
   
  Myself?  I'll be looking forward to getting my way cool, custom headphone cables to pair with a HD-650.  To paraphrase Justice Stewart:  Don't know what to expect, but I'll know it when I hear it.
   




   
  Now all I got's ta do is get the manufacture to return my e-mails so I can send them my money.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> So much for the debate free statement regarding this forum.
> 
> Myself?  I'll be looking forward to getting my way cool, custom headphone cables to pair with a HD-650.  To paraphrase Justice Stewart:  Don't know what to expect, but I'll know it when I hear it.


 

 It's not debate-free. It's DBT free. Which is just an artificial barrier against anti-cable (and scientific) arguments set up to protect Head-Fi financial interests. But whatever.
   
  And you won't know it when you hear it but you'll think you do, which might work just as well on a personal level. Just don't dive back in here like it's a universal constant


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





head injury said:


> I explained that the exact opposite was true in the very post you quoted. Did you read it?
> 
> When real evidence comes out that supports real differences, then I'll call myself wrong openly. However, since I've been asking _for_ that evidence, my position is a little more flexible than those who just ignore all the evidence that's out there now. Like, erm, cable believers. I'm actively searching to prove or disprove my position. You (used in the plural) are wallowing in stagnant, willfully ignorant waters, to continue the aqua analogies.


 

 The empirical evidence you wish for will have you waiting a lifetime. The only thing to trust here are your ears. Once again, like several others here, I'm advising you to listen to the cables before talking/arguing so much about them. Perform a DBT if you have to...
   
  Oh and BTW. I never heard cable differences either until I got to a certain point with equipment upgrades. Low-resolution ancillaries aren't going to reveal the subtleties of cable-induced changes...


----------



## beeman458

*It's not debate-free. It's DBT free.*
   
  Okay.  Googled DBT: Double Blind Testing.
   
  Doh!
   
*And you won't know it when you hear it but you'll think you do..... *
   
  Well....if I can't get the manufacture to return my e-mail, I'm never going know cause I won't be able to send them my money.
   
  Boo, Hoo, Hoo.


----------



## BIG POPPA

How can you explain the opposite without the Senn headphones and the Senn cables. With your gear your ears its your call with it if you hear the difference? You do need to at least go out and listen to a few Senn cables to start to get an opinion of them.
  
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> I explained that the exact opposite was true in the very post you quoted. Did you read it?
> 
> When real evidence comes out that supports real differences, then I'll call myself wrong openly. However, since I've been asking _for_ that evidence, my position is a little more flexible than those who just ignore all the evidence that's out there now. Like, erm, cable believers. I'm actively searching to prove or disprove my position. You (used in the plural) are wallowing in stagnant, willfully ignorant waters, to continue the aqua analogies.


----------



## beeman458

*Just don't dive back in here like it's a universal constant *




   
  Well.  I got the manufacture to send me an e-mail and we're now hashing out what I'm gonna get.
   




   
  Yeah, baby!


----------



## BIG POPPA

That is great, keep us posted. Like to read your impressions.


----------



## Trysaeder

To sum up what I think Head Injury is trying to say:
 "That which has been asserted without proof may be dismissed without proof".


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





trysaeder said:


> To sum up what I think Head Injury is trying to say:
> "That which has been asserted without proof may be dismissed without proof".


 

 No, but that's good too. I don't like "dismissed without proof", as there's plenty of proof that'll hold up until new discoveries are made. "Asserted without proof" is spot on, though.
   
  I'm trying to say that it doesn't matter if I hear it or not, because my hearing it does not mean it's real. So experience alone is not proof of anything.


----------



## Uncle Erik

shahrose said:


> Careful now...I suspect one day you'll end up eating crow...
> 
> If you're so sure, why not go and actually try these cables for yourself. Your opinions hold no water without the requisite experience.






 That's why I bought the aftermarket cables, to see if I was missing something. I didn't hear a difference. I could not measure a difference, either. And I do think the associated equipment was good enough - I wasn't running these out of the iPod.

 Why is it that believers can hear a difference only until they don't know what they're listening to?

 The only reasonable explanation is that the differences are psychological. Further, this psychological bias has been demonstrated a number of times with wine tastings. I don't see why cables are any different.


----------



## beeman458

*Head Injury wrote:*
   
*When real evidence comes out that supports real differences, then I'll call myself wrong openly. However, since I've been asking for that evidence, my position is a little more flexible than those who just ignore all the evidence that's out there now.*
   
  Personally, I think the wrong thing is being wired up for test.  Since music is an emotional response that can't be tested for at the electronic test level, then what needs to be tested for are the human's brain waves.  Let's see what different parts of the brain lights up with DBT cable changes.
   
  A test of this kind, my opinion, will be a better indicator of the truth as opposed to an oscilloscope readout.  In the meantime, I'm in the process of ordering up some way cool looking headphone cables that will look great attached to my headphones.
   
  "My headphone cables look better than your cables."


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> That's why I bought the aftermarket cables, to see if I was missing something. I didn't hear a difference. I could not measure a difference, either. And I do think the associated equipment was good enough - I wasn't running these out of the iPod.
> 
> Why is it that believers can hear a difference only until they don't know what they're listening to?
> 
> The only reasonable explanation is that the differences are psychological. Further, this psychological bias has been demonstrated a number of times with wine tastings. I don't see why cables are any different.


 

 You are one of the few with good equipment that doesn't hear the difference with good cables (that I know of). It doesn't rule out the possibility of others being able to hear it. BTW, depending on the cable, I can pass a DBT if I know the recording well enough to discern differences. It's difficult with cables made of the same material, but when switching from copper to silver, I can consistently pick out the cable because of the noticeable increase in speed/transient response in the bass.


----------



## Young Spade

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> You are one of the few with good equipment that doesn't hear the difference with good cables (that I know of). It doesn't rule out the possibility of others being able to hear it. BTW, depending on the cable, I can pass a DBT if I know the recording well enough to discern differences. It's difficult with cables made of the same material, but when switching from copper to silver, I can consistently pick out the cable because of the noticeable increase in speed/transient response in the bass.


 
  x2 concerning the differentiating between cables of different material. Copper vs silver was night and day for me back when I had my Triples. Of course it was less discerning between the stock and Blue-Dragon cables with my K702s but I can instantly hear the differences when using the Blue-Dragon.


----------



## BIG POPPA

I have had my HD580's for 3 1/2 years. I have swapped several cables over hundreds of hours. So yeah I do have a lot experience with them with no desire to upgrade them anytime soon.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





young spade said:


> x2 concerning the differentiating between cables of different material. Copper vs silver was night and day for me back when I had my Triples. Of course it was less discerning between the stock and Blue-Dragon cables with my K702s but I can instantly hear the differences when using the* Blue-Dragon. *


 
   
  I'm sure you meant to say Silver Dragon in the last sentence.
 I owned the Blue Dragon V3 for the HD650 and my experience matches yours.


----------



## BIG POPPA

This is why I respect your opinion. You tried cables on your rig. You didn't get the results you were looking for? Not everybody does? But you have done more than most!
  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> That's why I bought the aftermarket cables, to see if I was missing something. I didn't hear a difference. I could not measure a difference, either. And I do think the associated equipment was good enough - I wasn't running these out of the iPod.
> 
> Why is it that believers can hear a difference only until they don't know what they're listening to?
> 
> The only reasonable explanation is that the differences are psychological. Further, this psychological bias has been demonstrated a number of times with wine tastings. I don't see why cables are any different.


----------



## MrProggie

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> That's why I bought the aftermarket cables, to see if I was missing something. I didn't hear a difference. I could not measure a difference, either. And I do think the associated equipment was good enough - I wasn't running these out of the iPod.
> 
> *Why is it that believers can hear a difference only until they don't know what they're listening to?*
> 
> The only reasonable explanation is that the differences are psychological. Further, this psychological bias has been demonstrated a number of times with wine tastings. I don't see why cables are any different.


 
   
  Probably because if they have heard a song many times using one cable, they are able to hear differences when they suddenly are switching cable.  They need to know a song through and through first. That's my theory anyway.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





mrproggie said:


> Probably because if they have heard a song many times using one cable, they are able to hear differences when they suddenly are switching cable.  They need to know a song through and through first. That's my theory anyway.


 
   
  How about this effect?
   
_*Arocdnicg to rsceearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pcale. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit pobelrm. Tihs is buseace the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.*_
   
  We can also do this with sentences where familiar words have letters missing.  What does this sort of phenomenon say for our hearing and DBT's when we switch back and forth and somehow are having trouble discerning differences we can otherwise hear under different circumstances?
   
  When I got my HD800's, I heard details jump at me in tunes in ways I had not noticed before.  The details just showed themselves without effort.  I put on my HD650's, I listen out for the details and there they are, though not as obvious.  I do sit wondering when this happens to me if I had just missed the details and needed them pointed out to me.  Were the details put there by my mind that expects to hear them, or could it be a mixture of both.  Do either of these factors vary in contribution when deliberating intensely over subtle difference tests.  Can one be trained to see beyond this sort of influence?
   
  Anyone else notice that two signatures may initially sound different and as you switch back and forth between them, the difference reduces in level and may even become difficult to discern?


----------



## beeman458

Can one be trained to see beyond this sort of influence?
   
  Yes, it's called the U.S. Navy sonar school.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Can one be trained to see beyond this sort of influence?
> 
> Yes, it's called the U.S. Navy sonar school.


 

 Really?  Would you elaborate.  Are you saying that what I'm experiencing as I'm describing and concluding, is legitimate?  I really can't confirm this either way now.  It's my own interpretation of my personal experiences.


----------



## beeman458

*Really?  Would you elaborate.*
   
  There's nothing really to elaborate.
   
  The navy tests "all" it's new recruits in mass.  Well they did when I volunteered in 1971.  Those who have a particularly keen sense of hearing go for further testing.  Those who's hearing tests out the best of the best, go on to extensive training; sonar school.
   
  I guess you could say that your HD-800's taught you how to hear so now you know what to listen for.  Training.
   
  Yesterday, I listened to a set of bookshelf speakers.  They were horrible.  A short while later, I heard a $55,000 tube record system, it was wonderful.  When I got home and put my headphones on, I had to jack the gain up about 6db on the 2k treble setting of the graphic equalizer, just so I wouldn't want to trash my HD-650's when compared to the $55k system.  Sometimes, being ignorant isn't such a bad thing.


----------



## BIG POPPA

I have several reference CD's. There are passages I look for to compare anything. Senn cables are some of the easiest things to compare.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





mrproggie said:


> Probably because if they have heard a song many times using one cable, they are able to hear differences when they suddenly are switching cable.  *They need to know a song through and through first*. That's my theory anyway.


 
   
  This is actually true. I remember someone citing a study that stated this. I wish I could find it (it was on Head-Fi).


----------



## beeman458

*I'm trying to say that it doesn't matter if I hear it or not, because my hearing it does not mean it's real. So experience alone is not proof of anything.*
   
  Wow!  Those anti-cable guys seem to have colored your thinking.
   
  Just because someone can hear something in the fog of noise only thirty percent, or even ten percent of the time, doesn't mean they're guessing or that what they're hearing doesn't exist.  But that's what the anti-cable guys want you to believe.  All of our senses become fuzzy at some time and point as our senses have an analogue feel, not an on/off digital feel like being stabbed with a knife.  The anti-cable guys have turned an analogue debate into a digital debate of 1's and 0's, on or off, with nothing in the middle.  Talk about whiffing one.
   
  Example: You're in a thick fog, and you're not sure if you're seeing something or not and it's a dynamic situation, is it rational, since you're not right seventy percent of the time, to say what you're seeing doesn't exist?  How about those with partial color blindness or nerve damage?  Or is it more accurate to say that what you're seeing is being obscured by the fog or you're reaching the ends of your limitations?  How's your targeting skills at a hundred yards?  How's your targeting skills at four hundred yards.  Need a scope?  Of course it's not rational debate and neither are the parameters set about by the anti-cable guys.
   
  At a certain point one has to call BS on BS.  That's why debates of this kind are pointless.  The anti-cable guys are convinced and it don't matter what one can or can't hear as it's all about them and only them and you can buy only what they approve of.
   
  "We are the Borg and you will be assimilated."
   





   
  FWIW, I listen at very low levels.  Levels so low (5 out of a possible 100 and sometimes lower) that there's not enough power to open the headphones up.  So I'm dialing my system in to accommodate these low listening levels.  My hearing sensitivity is pretty much normal in that I'm able to hear down to 1db dependably and my hearing gets sketchy at about a 1/2db.  According to the pundits, I'm guessing at a 1/2db when clearly it's not guessing.  What it is, is that I'm at the end of my analogue abilities to differentiate; sensitivity.  There's no guessing going on as I'm now reaching into my noise floor and the sound is being obscured by the analogue noise in my hearing floor.  What a concept.  Example: you're listening to a radio transmission at the extreme range of the analogue transmitter and you're only picking up every forth or fifth word.  According to the anti-cable pundits, you're now guessing.  Why?  Because you can reliably only hear twenty or twenty-five percent of the transmission.  So, according to the pundits, you're really not hearing any of the transmission and you're only guessing. 
   
  This is how they define the debate so as to suit their personal bias'.  When one tries to take an analogue world and sum it up in digital terms, what's really going on is the anti-cable guys are pushing their digital bias on others; it's their way or the highway.  Well good for them.  The point, sometimes you just have to turn their noise off, ignore them and stop caring what the anti-cable group has to say for themselves.  Just enjoy what currently is being presented to your ears cause you're hearing what you're hearing, with or without their blessings.
   
  Custom headphone cables are on order and I should have them in hand for evaluation in a couple of weeks.  Today, the computer power supply was replaced and yes, doing so opened up both the sound stage and individual stringed notes of the jazz cello and grand piano piece.  Previously compacted or harsh stringed high notes were smoothed out by the opening up of these notes. 
   
  Today, UPS delivered a new, ten foot Audioquest NGR-3 power cord.  The addition of this power cord seemed to have flattened out (loss of clarity and dynamics) the sonic character of the music and I went back to the cord that was supplied with the original power supply.  My opinion, my ears, the $2.95, three foot power cord, attached to the power strip, next to wall warts, sonically sounds better than the $200.00 ten foot custom cord, attached to it's own wall plug.  Oh well, seems that I'm either out two hundred bucks or I just bought me a very expensive ten foot extension cord to use under the Christmas tree.  And what's so cool about all of the above?  All these mods, equipment changes and opinions are being made/formed and posted online, without the anti-cable guys seal of approval.  I do it for my ears, not theirs.


----------



## eucariote

^ you seem to be missing the point of the post you're quoting.  Perception is not a direct report from the sense organs (cochlea, eyes).  It's a process of inductive inference that by its nature integrates sensory information with history, expectations and information from other senses.  This has been demonstrated by anatomy and neuroscience.  This is not a flaw, it does not mean that people are 'deaf', etc.   It is optimally adaptive and allows people and animals to predict events in the environment far beyond immediate sense information.
   
  Note I am not saying that any particular cable works or doesn't (I own HD600, stock and upgrade cables and hear lots of things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  Just that sighted experience is affected by these processes and they make nonbiased evaluation impossible.  I do scientific tests for a living, no peer-reviewed journals publish data collected by sighted methods.


----------



## beeman458

*I do scientific tests for a living, no peer-reviewed journals publish data collected by sighted methods.*
   
  I hope that wasn't intended to try and impress me and by stating such, is expected for me to change my point of view that there's no point in debating the issue.
   




   
  My opinion, some issues are best left un-debated because the argument ends up boiling down to a childish argument of the anti-cable side trying to control the pro-cable side as opposed to adults learning to get along with each other.  One may do scientific tests for a living, but I don't buy into the rules of the game regarding what percentages constitutes a valid or invalid hearing test or the premise that at fifty percent, the test results are no more than a coin toss.  I'm not going try to change the rules or try and change anybody's mind on the matter.  Why?  There's no point.  Where I tell the person in front of me to talk to the hand, is when they tell me that they know their tests, know better than what I'm hearing.
   
  To me, it's about the music and how the sonic characteristics impacts one's emotions.  You know, that shady untestable area of human hearing, emotional impact.  And at this level, my opinion, that's all anybody should care about.  Today, I swapped out the power supply, it made a "huge" difference to the good in my emotional response to the music.  Today, I swapped out the power cable and it "ruined" the sonic characteristics of the music and now I have a two hundred dollar extension cord.  None of what I did today was about sight as what I did today was singularly about sound and it's impact on my emotions and today, the sighted two hundred dollar, audiophile grade power cord, lost out to a three dollar computer power supply cord because the two hundred dollar power cord killed the emotional impact of the music.  The point, what was done today wasn't about ego, sight or money as what was done today was about what it was about, the sound quality of the music coming out of the computer being ported over to the headphones and it's emotional impact on my being.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> My opinion, [...]


 
   
  Who cares?
   
 (childish, yes, but funny)
  
   
   
  Quote: 





> One may do scientific tests for a living, but I don't buy into the rules of the game regarding what percentages constitutes a valid or invalid hearing test or the premise that at fifty percent, the test results are no more than a coin toss.


 
   
  Back to school then!
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> The point, what was done today wasn't about ego, sight or money as what was done today was about what it was about, the sound quality of the music coming out of the computer being ported over to the headphones and it's emotional impact on my being.


 
   
  Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.


----------



## JaZZ

xnor said:


> Just thinking that the sound quality improved (...) doesn't actually improve it.


 

 Yes, it does! Sound quality is a purely subjective thing – a matter of individual perception. (Whereas signal accuracy would be a quantifiable/measurable issue.)
   
  That said, to my ears and in my experience cables, particularly headphone cables, alter the sound in a reliable manner, that's why I consider the differences real, not imagined.
   
  Please let's not dicuss testing methods here (see forum rules!); this sub-forum serves for exchanging experiences. For the former there's a special sub-forum.
   
  I'm aware of the problem that under this premise an adequate response from an objectivist perspective to posts like the above is impossible, but there's no ideal solution in an imperfect world.
.


----------



## Azathoth

FWIW, I have heard the HD600 on stock cables and on the APS v3 cable. The APS cable does improve the overall SQ noticeably to my ears - crisper and added clarity.


----------



## beeman458

*Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.*
   
  Wishing you well with your personal frustrations and  need to control others.
   
  (I posted the "beating a dead horse" icon but found it's motion distracting and removed it.)


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.*
> 
> Wishing you well with your personal frustrations and  need to control others.
> 
> (I posted the "beating a dead horse" icon but found it's motion distracting and removed it.)


 

 That's exactly the sort of reply I was expecting. 


  Quote: 





jazz said:


> I'm aware of the problem that under this premise an adequate response from an objectivist perspective to posts like the above is impossible, but there's no ideal solution in an imperfect world..


 
   
  It's a terrible pity.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *xnor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It's a terrible pity.


 

 The pity is you not being able to hear something so many others reliably can friend (especially over the long-run as they become more versed with the changes and realize what to look for).
   
  To the OP: Just try a cable. Buy one for cheap off the FS section so you can sell it for minimal or no loss if you feel it's not worth it. Give it some time also. Audio subtleties won't jump out at you immediately. IME 1) the better the supporting gear, the more prominent the cable-induced changes are 2) switching to a different wire material will produce larger changes than using a better quality version of the same material. 3) Sometimes, the cable makes a change but it's actually for the worse subjectively.


----------



## beeman458

Shahrose, a question, for a question.  Have you tried a HD-650 and if so, noting your gear list, how much better is the HD-800 when compared to a HD-650?
   
  ???


----------



## BIG POPPA

I can honestly say The HD 800's are a whole different animal. The 650's are more forgiving than the 800's. The sound takes a little to get used to with the 800's.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> I can honestly say The HD 800's are a whole different animal. The 650's are more forgiving than the 800's. The sound takes a little to get used to with the 800's.


 

 That's pretty much it. I didn't sell the 650s even after I got the 800s because they're so different. I still like both, despite the obvious increase in resolution, soundstage, speed and realism you get with the 800s. The 650s are very forgiving and involving even with bad recordings.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> That's pretty much it. I didn't sell the 650s even after I got the 800s because they're so different. I still like both, despite the obvious increase in resolution, soundstage, speed and realism you get with the 800s. The 650s are very forgiving and involving even with bad recordings.


 
   
  x2


----------



## dlnwntchld

So far i don't think HD600 benefits from a cable change really; i tried swapping the Plussound Apollonian i use on my Senn Amperior instead of the stock Senn HD600 cable and i though the music lacked impact. This was as close an A/B you could get. i did them back to back and gave a few seconds in between to let my aural palette rest a bit. 
  
 On the Amperior, the stock cable was really awfully thin; like something you would see on a cheap IEM. The PS Apollonian cable made a big difference in the spaciousness, impact and depth of the sound. Overall it thickened up the sound a bit which when paired with my ibasso dx50, i think sounds really rich and immersive.
  
 I really do think the stock cable is really adequate from the jump, so IMO theres no real reason to upgrade. Buying a good solid-state amp will make more of difference.


----------



## Steve58

sp70 said:


> Anyone? I'd love some speculation.


 
 Dont you think the specialist engineers know how to specify an appropriate cable off the shelf? I am wondering why these deluded neurotic cable guys dont start playing around with the diaphram and ports they are so knowledgable. Its all BS smoke and mirrors stuff for idiots. I have got some special Audiophile solder for sale so you can desolder the PCB's in your DAC or amp and resolder it with this special Audio solder.....unprecedented detail and all round improvement in sound, crazy kick butt bass.


----------



## Steve58

big poppa said:


> With Cardas they make their own wire and connectors. So the quality is there. If you are looking for a neutral sound Cardas is a good choice. A little boring for me. I would define the sound you are looking for in a Senn cable and go from there.


 
 Did you let the designers and engineers at Sennheiser your insight and findings​


----------



## Steve58

Deleted


----------



## Cobaltius

Does buying a new cable color the sound?


----------



## parbaked

Does anyone know why the HD650 ($12.32) cable costs so much less than the HD600 ($27.42) cable?
 Is there any difference other than the connectors and plug?
  
 http://en-us.sennheiser.com/best-audio-headphones-high-end-stereo-hifi-hd-600
 http://en-us.sennheiser.com/high-quality-headphones-around-ear-audio-surround-hd-650


----------



## dlnwntchld

draca said:


> In another thread that you were involved in I'm pretty sure I was asked the same question, specifically relating to my experience with recabling my HD600s. I have tried four different cables (and stock) and _heard no difference of note_. The one I've settled on now is a custom recable from ebay that looks like some of the ALO recables at a fraction of the price and ironically still has a more expensive quarter inch plug than the ALO. Looks nice, sounds identical to stock. The other cables I tried were the Cardas, SAA, and a custom Kimber recable from ebay. I've also tried the HD650 cable which merely has a thicker plastic coating - _no difference in any of these in ABX tests._
> 
> I have more general experience with interconnects and power cables, a couple of years ago I wasn't aware of the science behind them so I did waste a lot of money on a placebo that gradually wore off. Once I started attending cognitive science lectures at university and talked to some physicists studying electromagnetism about some of the claims made about these cables I realised just how fallible our hearing can be. I have not found one properly conducted DBT or ABX where differences between cables have been found. Basically, if one can't hear it in a blind test, than one's mind is compensating. Again, Ethan Winer explains and examines all of these phenomena in his presentation.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That 200.00 + dollars spent on a cable in 1/3 of what the HD600 is worth. 
  
 I really think that Draca's post just about sums it up; there's very little imperial evidence that any of the cables make any real-world, testable, repeatable difference in sound. The only asterisk I would add is that a new cable could make a difference if the old cable was _physically_ inadequate or damaged internally. Not that I'm qualified to evaluate what, how, why, when or where any cable would or wouldn't work with a headphone, but for the most part i would think that the folks who engineer and design these headphones for a living know what they're doing. At the very least they know a whole lot more than most of the people in here myself included. Further it's silly to think that Sennheiser would spend so much money creating a headphone, designed for a high-end listening experience, and then cripple it with an inadequate cable when it would cost them almost nothing to use the right cable in the first place.
 If what you are looking for is a different sound, trying changing your headphone first, as I'm of the belief that swapping source and amp equipment in search of a sound is a VERY expensive way of getting to the sound your looking for. You could also learn how to use an EQ and make slight adjustments that will also improve the sound quality. I know some consider that to be a taboo subject, but thats what EQ's are for. 
  
 I own HD600's and i'm really not happy with the way they sound; nice and open, well extended up top but lacking in bass impact and extension and too bright for my taste. I certainly won't spend 200.00 bucks to fix it. IMO


----------



## Shaffer

parbaked said:


> Does anyone know why the HD650 ($12.32) cable costs so much less than the HD600 ($27.42) cable?
> 
> *Is there any difference other than the connectors and plug?*
> 
> ...




I bought the 650 cable to try with my 600s. The wire is not the same. Physically thicker. Can't comment on the sound, yet.

Edit: The 650 cable isn't marked L/R very clearly, so I put a small piece of red heatshrink around the right connector, as to mimic the 600 cable. Turned out well.


----------



## Shaffer

Thought I'd post a brief update on the two cables. I have HD600, for the sake of clarification, and the rest of my gear is listed in my profile. 

The 650 cable make the 600s sound move upfront, more vivid. It allows for more apparent detail to come through; though, the quantity of the information (in itself) seems unchanged, Just its presentation. It's sharper, quicker. The tonal balance isn't as laid back. If you feel like your 600s need a little tweak to sound more forward and less constrained, dynamically, try this wire.

FWIW, I prefer the more easy-going stock 600 cable. YMMV. Each has its place.

Edit: text


----------



## tw9000

I have the HD600's and Cardas cable. I noticed the sound improvement instantly.
  
 Once, after I had been using the Cardas cable for a long time, I had the regular Senn cable in the headphone for some reason (I think I needed to use the mini plug) and forgot about it.
  
 Later, I started listening to music and very quickly started to look to see what was wrong in my system, then noticed that I had the regular Senn cable in the system. Swapping in the Cardas cable put things right again.
  
 Could I have gotten better sound by skipping the Cardas cable and using the money to buy more expensive headphones?  Maybe. But I like the 600's and I like the Cardas and it's not worth the energy to experiment with anything else.


----------



## stuzzyapple

I think if you seek another cable for the HD 600 you seek another headphone Sound great with the stock cable IMO.


----------



## atsq17

I find it an interesting phenomenon that every cable opinion thread is full of anti-cable crusaders. 
  
 I came in with an open mind and I DIDN'T want to believe the whole cable thing because it meant I would have another variable and expense to consider in my purchasing decisions and it would be far more convenient to think that cables were just voodoo bs. However, after giving it a fair go with RCAs (I swapped a Monster cable with some no brand ones), I noticed that there WAS indeed a difference. I played the same song and the Monster cable had clearly more bass body. 
  
 Anyway, the bottom line is, I kept on testing and sometimes I couldn't tell the difference (different USB cables on the Schiit Modi) and other times, like on the pupDAC, I could (comparing stock usb vs Wireworld Starlight vs Kimber Cu vs Furutech Formula). 
  
 I also bought a Beyer T1 and I hated it. I tried "burning in" for 100+ hours. Still hated it. Too much treble, not enough bass, hurt my ears even though it was really clear and 3d sounding on the bottlehead crack amp. I ended up selling it. 
  
 After i did more research, I decided to buy the T1 AGAIN but this time have it re-cabled by Whiplash so it had a very nice looking, light silver/copper hybrid cable. I wasn't sure what to expect with the sound as I didn't find many reviews out there for hybrid cables.
  
 The difference though, was CLEAR. It seemed to have dialled down the bass impact a notch (which I didn't like) but the clarity and "space" in the soundstage improved significantly. Most importantly... it no longer hurt my ears. The treble sounded smooth even though there was the same or even more details. 
  
 I then got myself a bassy DAC (Neko Audio D100 Mk2) and the synergy between the DAC, AMP, cable and headphone was PERFECT for my listening experience.
  
 My friend recently bought a T1 with stock cable. I tried it in an A-B test and guess what? Sound was slightly too aggressive and hurt my ears AGAIN. Put my recabled T1 back on... perfect. When I started this journey I was trying to DISPROVE the notion that cable made a difference. However, I am more interested in facts and the truth than winning arguments or "being right". 
  
 The fact is, for better or worse, cables DO make a difference. Do they make much difference? It varies depending on different situations, setups, and ears. In some setups, especially low end systems, there is something limiting the sound quality and cables do very little to change this. However, on high quality equipment, the difference is clear as day and night. 
  
 I find it hard to tell tiny changes in sound (eg. slightly wider soundstage, etc). However, the changes I heard were clear even to my relatively unperceptive ears. 
  
 I think that cables are upgrades of EXTREMELY diminishing returns. You just get less and less for your money the higher end you go. I personally don't think it's worthwhile after a certain point but to those who can afford it and who can tell the difference, I don't see why they have to be consistently trolled by those who obviously do not have a lot of experience in this but also lack the humility just to present their perspective as merely that, their opinion from a very limited experience. Instead I often see sweeping generalizations about cables not making a difference, snake oil, voodoo, bla bla bla. 
  
 It would be great if the cable "haters" can just have their own anti-cable threads and allow those who know the difference and those who want to try for themselves to just get on with their discussion. 
  
 I actually came here because I am about to pick up a HD600 and I wanted to know if anyone has tried Toxic Cable Scorpion or Viper on it. I remember that when I used to own a HD580 (with stock cable) I found that it seemed to lack bass impact and quantity. I want a cable that enhances bass but I was wondering if that would compromise treble. How does the treble sound on the HD600? I don't remember. 
  
 Any responses from those who actually have experience would be great. Cheers.


----------



## parbaked

atsq17 said:


> I find it an interesting phenomenon that every cable opinion thread is full of anti-cable crusaders.
> 
> It would be great if the cable "haters" can just have their own anti-cable threads and allow those who know the difference and those who want to try for themselves to just get on with their discussion.
> 
> ...


 
 The OP asked a question...if HD600 cable upgrade is worth it.
 Why shouldn't those who have tried a variety of cables with their HD600 and don't feel it is worth it speak up?
 If you want a thread that is not critical or objective, go to an appreciation thread. 
 That is how it works.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/609155/toxic-cables-the-appreciation-thread
 There are a number threads devoted to appreciating other cable makers.
 Enjoy!


----------



## ab initio

atsq17 said:


> I actually came here because I am about to pick up a HD600 and I wanted to know if anyone has tried Toxic Cable Scorpion or Viper on it. I remember that when I used to own a HD580 (with stock cable) I found that it seemed to lack bass impact and quantity. *I want a cable that enhances bass but I was wondering if that would compromise treble*. How does the treble sound on the HD600? I don't remember.


 
  
This should do the trick for you. Extremely high quality, too.
  
 Cheers


----------



## parbaked

ab initio said:


> This should do the trick for you. Extremely high quality, too.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Nice...what's the best cable to use?


----------



## SpinDoctor15

Good morning all,
  
 I read through a little of this thread and searched for others, but didn't find a compelling answer to the question of what cable to replace for the HD600!  The stock cable on my headphones recently experienced an internal break and thus the right ear is now inop.  I need a replacement cable out of necessity, but the Internet is so flooded with misinformation and misguidance that I can't quite find the essential details.  Does anyone have a couple good suggestions of decent quality (and sturdy) replacement cables for the HD600 for less than $100?  I'm an audiophile...but an economic one at that   So far, the only interesting replacement cables I've identified are the ZY Cable ZY-044 (found on Amazon and eBay) as well as the ones from Oyaide.  I only want a cable that's between 3 ft and 6 ft in length and isn't overly burdensome (too thick/stiff).
  
 I welcome your suggestions and thoughts, thanks!


----------



## parbaked

spindoctor15 said:


> Does anyone have a couple good suggestions of decent quality (and sturdy) replacement cables for the HD600 for less than $100?  I'm an audiophile...but an economic one at that   So far, the only interesting replacement cables I've identified are the ZY Cable ZY-044 (found on Amazon and eBay) as well as the ones from Oyaide.  I only want a cable that's between 3 ft and 6 ft in length and isn't overly burdensome (too thick/stiff).
> 
> I welcome your suggestions and thoughts, thanks!


 
 I tried the Oyaide and found it to be stiff and microphonic...but nice hardware.
  
 http://www.charlestoncablecompany.com/store/p26/Sennheiser_HD_650%2F600_Headphone_Cable_--_CANARE.html
 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_74902_Sennheiser-HD-650-Replacement-Cable-092885.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=sc&scpid=2&scid=scsho6223796&gclid=CPGz873G3r8CFQsyaQodUYEAMg
 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/search?keyword=hd600+cable


----------



## upstateguy

​


----------



## Lenni




----------



## SpinDoctor15

Hmmm, I must not get the inside jokes that those astronomy photos represent... So I'll just ask, what does that mean?

And while we're getting back on topic, any other thoughts for under $100 replacement/upgrade cables for the HD600? (I don't want to purchase Senn cable again...)


----------



## Brooko

spindoctor15 said:


> Good morning all,
> 
> I read through a little of this thread and searched for others, but didn't find a compelling answer to the question of what cable to replace for the HD600!  The stock cable on my headphones recently experienced an internal break and thus the right ear is now inop.  I need a replacement cable out of necessity, but the Internet is so flooded with misinformation and misguidance that I can't quite find the essential details.  Does anyone have a couple good suggestions of decent quality (and sturdy) replacement cables for the HD600 for less than $100?  I'm an audiophile...but an economic one at that   So far, the only interesting replacement cables I've identified are the ZY Cable ZY-044 (found on Amazon and eBay) as well as the ones from Oyaide.  I only want a cable that's between 3 ft and 6 ft in length and isn't overly burdensome (too thick/stiff).
> 
> I welcome your suggestions and thoughts, thanks!


 
  
 Just get the HD650 cable.  It's cheaper and better quality.  Only thing it doesn't come with is the snap on 3.5-6.3mm adaptor.
  
 I'm using it with my HD600s now.  It's better built - and should last the difference.
  

  
 Amazon link to cable = http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Cable-SENNHEISER-Headphones-HD650/dp/B0028PGXRE


----------



## Lenni

spindoctor15 said:


> Hmmm, I must not get the inside jokes that those astronomy photos represent... So I'll just ask, what does that mean?


 
  
 it's a long story... and way off-topic, so I'll refrain. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Brooko suggestion seems to be what you're looking for.


----------



## koshtramba

What I really hate about the default Sennheiser cables, is exactly what the OP mentioned in his first post - how flimsy they are, and how prone to breaking they are upon extended usage. Had a case like that before, and had to replace it, but they most certainly need to think about that when implementing future hi-end models: cables should be more durable.
  
 It's not that getting an aftermarket silver cable isn't nice and all, those guys gotta make a living too. Still, if the cable break happens when you're out of cash, you're stuck with headphones that don't work, and you're unable to enjoy your music collection, which leaves you empty and unsatisfied, especially considering how spoiled your ears by then, and you'd have a really hard time adapting to the vastly inferior sound that you'd get out of a cheap replacement.


----------



## Brooko

koshtramba said:


> What I really hate about the default Sennheiser cables, is exactly what the OP mentioned in his first post - how flimsy they are, and how prone to breaking they are upon extended usage. Had a case like that before, and had to replace it, but they most certainly need to think about that when implementing future hi-end models: cables should be more durable.
> 
> It's not that getting an aftermarket silver cable isn't nice and all, those guys gotta make a living too. Still, if the cable break happens when you're out of cash, you're stuck with headphones that don't work, and you're unable to enjoy your music collection, which leaves you empty and unsatisfied, especially considering how spoiled your ears by then, and you'd have a really hard time adapting to the vastly inferior sound that you'd get out of a cheap replacement.


 
  
 Actually the HD600 cable isn't that flimsy.  On the first pair I had - cable lasted for at least two years, and was still in perfect condition when I sold the HD600s.  The only reason I have the 650 cable on this pair is because that's how I bought it (used) when I purchased it.  If anything I'd prefer the original 600 cable - it's less bulky, and has the 3.5mm inbuilt plug.
  
 What are you guys doing with your HD600's to break the cables????


----------



## Rearwing

I have the HD600's and I have tried them with the supplied cable and with the HD650 cable, my experience is that with the HD650 cable drop out due to the connectors 'moving' has dropped to almost nothing and the resultant better fit has enabled me to concentrate on the sounds, rather than worrying about drop out.
  
 I have custom cables for my K702's and I swear by those, but for the 600's, I am happy with the 650 cable. As others have said, try before you buy and base your purchases on what works for you and what you think sounds good.


----------



## SpinDoctor15

Thanks for suggestions, all. I really would like a built-in 3.5mm plug. Also, I don't really have a place to "try before buy" with the 650 cable... Does anyone have specific experience with that ZY cable I mentioned? (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00EI8AXYS/ref=mp_s_a_1_13?qid=1406302847&sr=8-13&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70). Thanks again!


----------



## koshtramba

brooko said:


> Actually the HD600 cable isn't that flimsy.  On the first pair I had - cable lasted for at least two years, and was still in perfect condition when I sold the HD600s.  The only reason I have the 650 cable on this pair is because that's how I bought it (used) when I purchased it.  If anything I'd prefer the original 600 cable - it's less bulky, and has the 3.5mm inbuilt plug.
> 
> 
> What are you guys doing with your HD600's to break the cables????


 

 Well, it's not like it breaks overnight, you know. It takes time, of course, but the very fact that it happens with a pretty expensive set of headphones is disturbing. I used to have a Silver Dragon cable made by Moon Audio, and that thing was like, bulletproof. So well insulated and shielded, that the actual wiring inside could probably last decades.
  
 That sort of quality is what I'd expect from the guys of Sennheiser.


----------



## Brooko

Again though - how are you treating it? It's not overly flimsy ......

 And seriously - you're comparing a $250+ cable to the Sennheiser stock (@ $35) and commenting that the Moon Audio one is better built


----------



## ab initio

brooko said:


> Again though - how are you treating it? It's not overly flimsy ......
> 
> And seriously - you're comparing a $250+ cable to the Sennheiser stock (@ $35) and commenting that the Moon Audio one is better built


 

 Is it possible if people treated their $35 Sennheiser cable as if it originally cost $250 that there would be fewer cases of the cable breaking?
  
 The cable on my HD 280 pros has lasted me 7 years (and counting) of pretty rough use, including regularly being stuffed into backpacks, use with a cellphone and being stuffed into pants pockets, being plugged into amps (or even computer headphone outs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and then me forgetting that I'm tethered and trying to get up and and walk away, etc.... And my 280 cable is still in great condition. I've replaced the earpads twice, the cable never. How does the 650 cable compare to the 280 pro cable?
  
 Cheers


----------



## Brooko

Hard to compare the two unless you can get a photo side by side.  The HD280 cable is also coiled isn't it.  The HD650 cable is really heavy duty.  Can't see it breaking in my lifetime unless it's abused.


----------



## SpinDoctor15

Brooko: but is the 650 also *really* heavy? Case in point, I ordered the 'premium' headphone cable extension from monoprice and although it works very well it is heavy to the point of dragons my headphones off my ears


----------



## ab initio

brooko said:


> Hard to compare the two unless you can get a photo side by side.  The HD280 cable is also coiled isn't it.  The HD650 cable is really heavy duty.  Can't see it breaking in my lifetime unless it's abused.


 

 My 280 cable is coiled. I think Sennheiser offers a straight replacement option. I don't really think of the 280 cable as being anything especially heavy duty. It's just sort of a normal duty cable that happens to have been working flawlessly for me for 7 years and still going strong.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Brooko

spindoctor15 said:


> Brooke: but is the 650 also *really* heavy? Case in point, I ordered the 'premium' headphone cable extension from monoprice and although it works very well it is heavy to the point of dragons my headphones off my ears


 
  
 I'll weigh it when I get home later today


----------



## Brooko

HD650 cable is 81 grams - or at least mine is anyway.


----------



## GloriousLettuce

I got my hd600 used with stock cable and a spare pair of the original HD650 cable and headband pads. I must say the HD650 cable does something weird:

It sounds like mids are coming out more from the grills and are reduced in the stage, sounded slightly sharper than the stock cable.

Stock cable, less mids from the grill, more mids in the stage - more middy sound, preferring the original design.


----------



## MrChiSox

I just received my Sennheiser HD 600's today, a headphone that I have wanted since the later 1990's and never attained.  I purchased an upgraded cable because I can't stand using a 10 foot cord while sitting 2 feet from my desktop DAC.  I spent $18!  LOL


----------



## MrChiSox

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KAMKCE2/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_1


----------



## donunus

Just had to bump this thread. Man the signal to noise ratio here is bad lol. Cable debate galore


----------



## JediMa70

The only reason why i change stock cables is just bout length because of my setup with players, amps and so on, so I just look for not to expensive but shorter ones


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## KeithG

I've had my Sennheisers HD 600 cans for more than fifteen years, they were my first and for a long time my only pair of audiophile headphones. Over the years I have run them direct from my main amplifier, a series of Musical Fidelity X-Cans of various versions, from stock to modified and back again; more recently they have had a dedicated Little Dot MkIII with NOS, grooved Voshkod valves. Each step along the amplification road has been an improvement, sometimes subtle, occasionally quite significant. In the early days, listening to the 600s had me thinking, "why can't my speakers sound like this?" There was incredible detail and I found myself immersed into recordings, dissecting favourite tracks and discovering new sounds on discs I thought I knew really well - for me they seemed unbeatable

And that's how things were for a quite some time, until a few years ago, I was given a surprise pair of Grado 325 cans by my wife for Christmas. At first the Grado's sounded all wrong, too bright and too forward in the mids, indeed I struggled to see what people saw or heard in them. However, after some burning in of both cans and ears they began to take over, they were much more fun, in fact switching back to the Senns had me wondering why was everything so dark and bass heavy, why vocals were now taking a back seat in the mix and where all that texture had gone. Those first Grados led me to track down a pair Grado X Bushmills that do all that famous treble and midrange detail but with real tuneful bass. The headphone bug had bitten and now I have a growing collection of Grados, and a pair of Audeze LCD2, all powered by a Schiit Lyr2 with vintage Amperex Bugle Boys. 

All this has left the HD 600 sitting on the shelf, only getting the occasional outing and sounding so very different, perhaps even too different to my favourite cans, the beautifully well rounded Bushmills. However, rather than let them languish there, unloved and under used, I thought I might experiment with a new cable. I have searched around on eBay and etsy for some time and finally took the plunge with what looked like a bargain from UK eBay seller Mavismodz6, who by coincidence also happens to be a Keith. He his £30 upgrade cable, which he makes himself, thus:

"Cable upgrade for sennheiser headphones using the 2 pin type connection, eg HD600,650 etc (Not suitable for the HD25, please see my other listings for compatible cable's) 2 metres long pure OFC cable has 4 core cable's which have been twisted into pairs, 2 cable's per channel, this stops interference from effecting the audio signal and the black Teflon based sleeving further isolates the signal whilst cutting down the cable's microphonics considerably, The 2 twisted pairs are then reverse twisted into one cable and sleeved in a green paracord to protect and provide strength, also stopping it from tangling, The reverse twist eliminates cross talk between the left and right channels keeping the audio clean and clear. The cable is terminated with a 6.35mm trs jack which is filled with sound dampening resin after soldering, this not only aids with further minimising the microphonics, but it also makes the jack connection super strong, the custom Cardas style hpsc connectors are also filled after soldering making for a very strong, well built cable."

A quick word of caution - if like me, you rush straight to change over cables and are a little long sighted, you might miss that the pins on the cables are sided by being made in two different sizes. If you have to force the connection then you have got it the wrong way round. You might also need new glasses. 

So what did they do? Well, they did something, in fact they did something quite surprising. I was hoping to hear something but wasn't expecting suck a marked difference. The Senns and the Grados are chalk and cheese, the Senns dark and immersive, the Grados bright and fun. With the volume set at position 2 on the Little Dot the cable gives the the Senns some extra sparkle and life. Switching cables back and forth on The Delines' "Colfax", track 9, "He told Her The City Was Killing Him" there is greater texture and increased detail, Amy Boone has more breath and seems even more real and the cans now separate wood from cymbal better than before - if you've heard it, you will know what I mean - my go to tracks to hear this is Radiohead's 'The National Anthem' and Grandaddy's 'He's Simple, He's Dumb, He's The Pilot" - I am hearing real cymbals being struck with wooden sticks. On The Lemonheads cover of 'Dandelion Seeds' the easily confused guitars are now more clearly separated and each individual instrument more readily followed. It's not simply a matter of a brighter presentation, there is more detail - this isn't just change, its a definite improvement. Never mind chalk and cheese or oranges and apples, comparing my Senns and the Grados is now more akin to comparing fine cheeses (Sorry but I never got a taste for wine), the Senns are much more fun now. 

And there's more - on over bright CDs, like the otherwise sublime "Inside The Human Body" from Ezra Furman and the Harpoons, the Grados are just a little 'too much' but with its new cable, the Sennheiser's now have enough extra sparkle to do justice and extract the fun out tracks like "Take Off Your Sunglasses" without sounding glaringly bright. That's a nice trick and suits my headphoning, allowing me to tailor my cans to suit the music and my mood. 

I'm impressed, if entry level cables can provide such a change, what might be in store further up the price ladder? The Sennheisers have been saved from the back of the shelf and will now get an outing more often. At these prices I intend trying others, especially as they come in such small packages and are much more easily sneaked past my lovely wife than either a new pair of cans or an amplifier might be. Yes, cables do make a difference and at these prices it seems silly not to at least give them a try. I'm hooked and saving for the next step up.


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## JediMa70

keithg said:


> I've had my Sennheisers HD 600 cans for more than fifteen years, they were my first and for a long time my only pair of audiophile headphones. Over the years I have run them direct from my main amplifier, a series of Musical Fidelity X-Cans of various versions, from stock to modified and back again; more recently they have had a dedicated Little Dot MkIII with NOS, grooved Voshkod valves. Each step along the amplification road has been an improvement, sometimes subtle, occasionally quite significant. In the early days, listening to the 600s had me thinking, "why can't my speakers sound like this?" There was incredible detail and I found myself immersed into recordings, dissecting favourite tracks and discovering new sounds on discs I thought I knew really well - for me they seemed unbeatable
> 
> And that's how things were for a quite some time, until a few years ago, I was given a surprise pair of Grado 325 cans by my wife for Christmas. At first the Grado's sounded all wrong, too bright and too forward in the mids, indeed I struggled to see what people saw or heard in them. However, after some burning in of both cans and ears they began to take over, they were much more fun, in fact switching back to the Senns had me wondering why was everything so dark and bass heavy, why vocals were now taking a back seat in the mix and where all that texture had gone. Those first Grados led me to track down a pair Grado X Bushmills that do all that famous treble and midrange detail but with real tuneful bass. The headphone bug had bitten and now I have a growing collection of Grados, and a pair of Audeze LCD2, all powered by a Schiit Lyr2 with vintage Amperex Bugle Boys.
> 
> ...


 
 Extremely interesting, do you have some specific model/brand that you can advice? I'm always open to easy/cheap tests


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## KeithG

jedima70 said:


> Extremely interesting, do you have some specific model/brand that you can advice? I'm always open to easy/cheap tests





This is the cable. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232290853202


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## JediMa70

keithg said:


> This is the cable.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232290853202


 
 damn .. no international shipping 
  
 i just found ths one http://www.ebay.it/itm/Sennheiser-3m-HD650-HD600-OFC-copper-cable-HD580-HD414-Headphone-with-CABLE-WRAP-/142321263960?hash=item2123022558:g:Z~QAAOxylpNTRlZj


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## DancingShade

Just my personal experience but I bought a custom XLR balanced cable for my venerable much loved HD600s earlier this year and wow, huge difference. That was mostly just due to shifting from the 1/4" to balanced outputs on my amplifier however the sonic difference was very noticeable and I much approve.
  
 I mean the entire point for me was just to get a balanced cable but it's a very nice aesthetic and physically pleasing sensation to have a quality handmade braided cable in whatever colors you prefer. Plus getting a cable of the correct length for your personal audio setup that won't kink is a rather nice ergonomic upgrade too.


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## lexipenia

I upgraded to an XLR cable to use with a balanced amp (from Custom Cans). Probably wouldn't have bothered if I hadn't wanted a longer cable than standard - but I do feel that the sound has improved somewhat, with better instrument separation. I know this is somewhat irrelevant, but I also think the stock cable for the HD6x0 feels pretty flimsy, not of the same quality as the headphones. Having a nicer cable just makes using them feel more pleasant, irrespective of audio differences.


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## lexipenia

dancingshade said:


> Just my personal experience but I bought a custom XLR balanced cable for my venerable much loved HD600s earlier this year and wow, huge difference. That was mostly just due to shifting from the 1/4" to balanced outputs on my amplifier however the sonic difference was very noticeable and I much approve.
> 
> I mean the entire point for me was just to get a balanced cable but it's a very nice aesthetic and physically pleasing sensation to have a quality handmade braided cable in whatever colors you prefer. Plus getting a cable of the correct length for your personal audio setup that won't kink is a rather nice ergonomic upgrade too.




Haha, Looks like we wrote the same thing!


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## crazywipe

Tried my Oyaide hd25 cable on the hd600... Gosh, call me impressed! The sound is wider, a lot more air and space between instruments. The background is cleaner, you can pinpoint instruments clearly.
As I understand this Japanese cable uses only top materials, and they are very well priced. I paid 50 EUR for my hd25 cable. 
So I'll buy one for my hd600 asap.
I have also the mavis ebay cable, and it's a good cable, a bit more open in the treble than the stock one but it is no match with the Oyaide.
I was not a cable believer, I was wrong!


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## Blues47 (Jan 25, 2018)

I love my 600's as well and just kept the stock cable but if you really want a different cable I would just get a 650 cable or make one out of mogami bulk cable.  I never believed in differences in cables until I made my own guitar cable out of canare or mogami and it sounded MUCH more clear but quite bright.


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## Blues47

I've never tried going balanced.  How does the sound change/ improve going from a shared ground to balanced?


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## crazywipe

I tried the 650 cable on the hd600 and I don't like it. It gives more highs presence but the midrange does not sound right like the stock cable. Oyaide is miles ahead of quality. This PCCOC-A cable has a very clean structure without any impurity.

As you can see in the picture, on the left is a standard copper, right the PCCOC-A. It's quite clean.
It's just an image but the funny thing it's a very close graphic analogy about what I am hearing with those cables.


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## Blues47

Interesting


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## janolisboa

fjf said:


> Thats because the cardas was not expensive enough.  Get a mortgage on your house and spend it all in a cable.  THEN you hear a difference.


Your comments are not helpful. If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread please keep your fingers off the keyboard.


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## zloxious

I like my HD600 but they are too bright for me.. I experience fatigue after listening them for a while.  So I think Im gonna try a new cable to see if I can make the highs a bit smoother somehow... I dont need more clarity.. I need l bit of laid back highs..  So if I understand corectly the silver cables gives you more clarity and the copper more bass ..or something like that ? Could you give me any idea what type of cable should I look for if i want to reduce that fatigue of mine..


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## Brooko

zloxious said:


> I like my HD600 but they are too bright for me.. I experience fatigue after listening them for a while.  So I think Im gonna try a new cable to see if I can make the highs a bit smoother somehow... I dont need more clarity.. I need l bit of laid back highs..  So if I understand corectly the silver cables gives you more clarity and the copper more bass ..or something like that ? Could you give me any idea what type of cable should I look for if i want to reduce that fatigue of mine..



If you find the HD600 fatiguing a cable won't fix it.  Either EQ the 3-4kHz peak down a little, or see if you can trade it for an HD650 (or HD6xx from Massdrop).

The problem with cable changes is that if you actually measure the differences (objective rather than subjective), you'll find virtually no change.  Silver is not going to make it brighter and copper won't make it darker.  You need a different headphone.


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## zloxious

Even if it dont change the things.. I definitely need a shorter cable.. so Im gonna buy one. Just have to decide what exactly to buy.. of course im not gonna jump into anything ways too expensive..


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## Tsukuyomi (Nov 12, 2018)

audio cables changing headphone sound or greatly improve it is a load of snake oil.
if you're going to buy an audio cable heres what to look for and what i look for as well:

a) durability (is it made well and wont crack, break or split at the ends and is it insulated well.)
b) length (how much cable do i really need? 3 feet? 6 feet? 12 feet?)
c) terminations (plugs) (is the 2.5, 3.5 or 6.45mm plugs made well, and are the proprietary ends connecting to the cups also made well?)
d) aesthetic (do i like the colour, feel, soft or stiffness of the cable? maybe coil?)

thats it, please dont drop tones of money on cables, its such a waste of money. i've had the opportunity to test "high end audio cables" at the behest of friends and co-workers who have made mistakes buying them and the cables have made 0!!!!! difference in terms of sound quality when compared to the OEM cables given to you in the box.


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## RobbS

I'm inclined to agree with the above. Honestly, I won't buy new sets of cables unless I break my existing ones or I need a new length (or want to be stylish, lol).

Even then, some of the prices for proprietary standards are just too expensive for me to justify.


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## zloxious (Nov 12, 2018)

I found few cable options which might works for me.. I just don't get that 8 or 4 core stuff ?? whats the difference between these ?


This one looks interesting btw 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-lo...13:m:m4xGGfw6m8uYxHGMTnkuKVQ&var=441963095566


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## sinquito

Just read the whole thread, amazing that it's more than 8 years old. I think I am with the anti-cable camp, being an electronics engineer myself, I think that if you cannot measure it then you cannot prove it. A simple thing such as a cable should be easy measurable with a ohmmeter or an scope. Bit I digress, I just bought a pair of HD600 and found that the stock cable is too long and thin, thinking about buying a shorter more robust cable. I am between the OFC New Fantasy and the silver plated also New Fantasy from Amazon. I had the opportunity to test a pair of HD25 and I loved it's steel cable, it was thick but supple and the right length for my uses and the plug felt sturdy. Anyway hope somebody can recommend an inexpensive 1.5 meter cable.


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## blackdragon87

My moon audio cable is a definite improvement over the stock cable in my opinion. Much more durable and doesn't tangle up which is great.


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## torii

I have a cheapo balanced sennheiser cable balanced with xlr and also a periapt balanced cable and an oyaide single ended 3.5mm.  get a balanced cable if have balanced system.


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## Spareribs (Jan 4, 2019)

I plan on getting the Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable for my Sennheiser.

If anyone decides to buy a cable, at least buy one that is durable quality. I’ve had a stock AKG cable break on me just from normal use where the outer layer cracked and split open leaving the inner layer exposed making the cable even more fragile. Not good! So durability should at least be your first priority since stock cables tend to be on the flimsy side,


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## blackdragon87

Spareribs said:


> I plan on getting the Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable for my Sennheiser.



Nice, I have one too. Although mine is an earlier version


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## blackdragon87 (Jan 4, 2019)

v2 with the N7 OCC cable and in a braided style to be excact


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## ScrapIron

I went with a Periapt balanced cable for my trusty HD600s. I was looking at Moon Audio and Corpse Cables- but after thinking it through, I wasn't sure spending that much $ on a pair of 16 year old* headphones was prudent.

I had upgraded the stock HD600 cable with a HD650 late last year. The newer Senn cable is more robost, but geesh, 10 feet for my desktop? The Periapt cable is 5ft and an excellent length. I'm still tempted to try Moon or Corpse just to see if there is a difference. I had the original Cardas about a decade ago and that was an improvement over the stock cable. Is the Periapt better than either the stock or the HD650? Probably, but it's balanced so not an apples to apples comparison.

*16 years and hours upon hours of listening to music, movies, etc. and the only thing I've replaced is the foam head thing in December. Still look great, sound great. I finally recycled the box last year since I'm not getting rid of them.


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## Lee Van De Mark

ScrapIron said:


> I went with a Periapt balanced cable for my trusty HD600s. I was looking at Moon Audio and Corpse Cables- but after thinking it through, I wasn't sure spending that much $ on a pair of 16 year old* headphones was prudent.
> 
> I had upgraded the stock HD600 cable with a HD650 late last year. The newer Senn cable is more robost, but geesh, 10 feet for my desktop? The Periapt cable is 5ft and an excellent length. I'm still tempted to try Moon or Corpse just to see if there is a difference. I had the original Cardas about a decade ago and that was an improvement over the stock cable. Is the Periapt better than either the stock or the HD650? Probably, but it's balanced so not an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> *16 years and hours upon hours of listening to music, movies, etc. and the only thing I've replaced is the foam head thing in December. Still look great, sound great. I finally recycled the box last year since I'm not getting rid of them.


I don’t know if this will help but I recently got the Cardas cross for my HD 660 and it does help slightly with the separation of instruments and small differences in soundstage depending on the music.  It’s very nice wire that’s flexible and no noise from the cable as it’s rubbed against other surfaces.


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## Vitor Valeri (Sep 6, 2019)

I recommend custom cans cables. Very flexible, soft, microphone-free and lightweight cables! In addition, I noticed an improvement in the sound stage, the treble was more controlled (no stridency in certain passages) and there was a slight improvement in sound detail.


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