# Good price point for a speaker rig



## tomek

Hey guys,

 I've been on here for long enough now to see several speakers vs. headphones threads come and go. I don't delude myself, I think that speakers can off a lot more, but they are a pain to listen to properly. Room setup, being able to listen at adequate volume without disturbing those around you (family AND neighbours), and sitting in the 'sweet spot' as I magically discovered. I've also noticed that sources and cables seem to more readily present their differenes on speakers, leading me to believe they are more resolving.

 I don't want to break the bank. But at what pricepoint could I expect the sonic strengths of my Stax 404s (detailed, airy, excellent seperation) to be matched with a speaker rig?

 I know that as much as I enjoy my paradigm mini monitors (version 1), they don't match the Stax setup in detail and seperation. They do smoke them in soundstage and visceral presence.

 I also suspect that my 200 dollar Kenwood home theatre receiver from 1996 isn't cutting it, but honestly, I found SS to sound mostly the same with headamps, I was very disappointed at how much difference I could discern between headphone outs and meta42s, gilmores.

 edit: I recently heard a speaker setup that was about 7 grand for the speakers, 2.5 grand for the amp, plus my own cd player. I was blown away. I don't want to spend THAT much though. I'm looking for the point of diminishing returns, then maybe a little more....


----------



## CRESCENDOPOWER

.


----------



## ooheadsoo

I was thinking the same thing...if you're trying to replicate electrostats...wouldn't it help to _get_ electrostats? Just for the heck of it, let me toss out these speakers which use ribbon tweeters to get you a bit of that electrostat flavor: http://www.selahaudio.com/linus2.html. Combination of the best of both worlds: good top end speed and dispersion for fantastic imaging, woofers to move a bit of air for some impact. Line array for a life size image and very high efficiency. Decay of SPL as a function of distance is halved, which is nice compared to standard speakers.


----------



## jefemeister

things start to get magical at ~$3000.


----------



## tomek

Quote:


 _Originally posted by jefemeister _
*things start to get magical at ~$3000. * 
 


 for the speakers? or for the system?

 i was looking at an actual price i suppose...

 then i can figure out whether i can make this system over the next few years.


----------



## ooheadsoo

I'm not sure what jefemeister is talking about but I don't think you want to spend $3k alone for the speakers because once you add the amp and preamp and whatnot, you're pretty much up to $7k if you want matching quality components 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Too bad the linus 2 doesn't have an assembled option. Rick's coming out with a line array that fits between his linus and excel arrays within a month. I think he'll have a fully assembled option for that one. It will probably be around $4k-5k though. Let me know if you have no intention of buying "non-commercial" speakers and I'll stop posting inane crap


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


 _Originally posted by jefemeister _
*things start to get magical at ~$3000. * 
 

 Nah. $1700- Cause thats what I paid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, I thought i'd have to pay more to match the Sennheiser HD600. Happily I surpassed the HD600's for $1700 on a pair of ATC monitors.


----------



## ooheadsoo

I feel I surpassed my HD600's with my NHT Pro monitors, at least in most ways, and I paid...well, I'm sure the ATC's are even better!


----------



## Ctn

If you want magic, spend the most $$$ on the active preamp/poweramp. It will make even average speakers sound awesome.


----------



## jefemeister

Quote:


 _Originally posted by jefemeister _
*things start to get magical at ~$3000. * 
 

I mean for the whole system. I feel once you go past 5k or so you're not going to get wothwhile perfomance without some thought to room acoustics/treatments. An absolute top notch system can be had for ~20k. After that price point, you better have a dedicated listening room. I generally don't like discussing quality in terms of dollars, this is all general based on my understanding of the current market.


----------



## ooheadsoo

Actually, Linkwitz Orion dipoles cost around $4000-6000 including 12 poweramps. Add preamp and source and you have one of the world's best systems for well under $20k. And they're dipoles, so placement and roomtreatment is less critical.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


 _Originally posted by ooheadsoo _
*I feel I surpassed my HD600's with my NHT Pro monitors, at least in most ways *


----------



## br--

You may want to look at Coincident speakers. I own a pair myself and every time I listen, I am amazed at the amount of detail, soundstage, transparency, and impact these speakers provide.


----------



## Norbert

"Madness Captain! Madness!" This is where I get down on my knees and thank my maker for my Corda amp and my W1000's!!! I love my headphone rig....but my humble CSW Newton M80's and my TEAC reference AGH500 is all I need for non-headphone time. Aimed directly at my head, nearfield, Three-ways blasting away. Yea, I'm ok.


----------



## usc goose

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Ctn _
*If you want magic, spend the most $$$ on the active preamp/poweramp. It will make even average speakers sound awesome. * 
 

i can vouch for that. http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=64758


----------



## aerius

Friend of mine has the Energy C-3 speakers driven by a modest Rotel integrated amp. I think it matches Stax system for detail, but it has a different sound to it since it's not an electrostatic. They can be had for about $7-800 Cdn if I remember right. There's a SoundStage Review here which I mostly agree with. I think they soundstage better than the reviewer says, I didn't notice the depth issue he did. However I noticed that acoustic guitars didn't sound quite right for some reason, something was just the littlest bit off but I couldn't place it. Your Stax doesn't have this issue. One the other hand the speakers groove, put in something with a nice bassline and they do fun things which headphones just don't do.


----------



## Ctn

My definition of magic. ME14/24 preamp + ME 1400/1500 power amp.

 Takes hifi to a whole new level.

 Wish I could afford that power amp though


----------



## tomek

What do you think Aerius. You were over here once when we listened to our headphones critically, talked about them, but then when we wanted to enjoy the music we cranked up my little speaker rig and right away noticed all the qualities that headphones can't reproduce.


----------



## tomek

Oh, and is my room too small right now?

 14 feet by 13 feet?

 Sort of...one part of the room turns into the rest of the apartment...

 Will I still be able to properly position them in this space?


----------



## fliz

full range drivers.

 otherwise it's not anything like headphones.

 headphones don't have crossovers. (unless they suck)
 multiple drivers make the sound muddier... always period.

 the catch:
 drivers range from $10 to $5000 (i think lowther dx3 @ $1000 is a sweet spot)

 enclosures are either expesive or DIY.

 tons of research required (and a little bit of trust, unless you feel like building LOTS of enclosures and testing them)

 bass reflex enclosures are terrible for full-range drivers, TML rarely works and usually requires filters (which defeats the point of full range drivers), and horns, which work best, are usually large.

 fliz


----------



## tomek

magnepans, they woudln't have all these crossover issues?

 then what issues would they have (i've learned already, there is ALWAYS a tradeoff)

 ha!


----------



## aerius

Quote:


 _Originally posted by tomek _
 Oh, and is my room too small right now?

 14 feet by 13 feet? 
 

I don't think it is, my friend (with the Energy speakers) has her speakers setup in a spare bedroom which is about the same size as your listening area. It sounds just fine as far as I'm concerened. I think you actually have a really nice listening area for bookshelf-sized or smaller floorstanding speakers.

 As for your current speakers, well, I'm going to be blunt here. They definitely sound muddy and coloured next to your Stax. It's almost as if put a foot of foam in front of the speakers, the details aren't there and things weren't nearly as crisp as the Stax. Dynamics sounded compressed and it was just slow sounding. There were also bumps & dips in the frequency balance but I'm having trouble remembering where they were. That's the downside.

 The upside is that they soundstage surprisingly well, and they do it in a way that headphones can't match. The sound comes from 8' or whatever in front, it sounds right in a way that headphones don't. They groove, and you not only hear but feel the sound which makes for a much fuller listening experience. Turn or move your head around and the sound changes, unlike headphones where it's always the same, it's more real with speakers.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


 _Originally posted by tomek _
*magnepans, they woudln't have all these crossover issues?

 then what issues would they have (i've learned already, there is ALWAYS a tradeoff)

 ha! * 
 

 You can't put magnepans in a 14 feet by 13 feet space. Maggies want *lots* of room to breathe properly. Also the 4ohm load may be an issue for your kenwood.


----------



## tomek

So this room would be too small for even the MMG speakers??

 I think the open nature of the apartment would make for a different soudn than if this was one small closed room.


----------



## rsaavedra

Is your ceiling flat or is it an inverted V? You have a sort of square area on the ground floor, if your ceing is flat then looks like your space there can be quite close to a cubic volume, which is probably the worst for acoustics.

 The floor area is not really square because of the opening on one side. Now that's not too good either because of the marked asymmetry, you'll have loud and early reflections from the side wall, while the other side with the opening will just suck out sound (e.g. absorbing it), or will providing later and lower level reflections if there's another wall not far off. So two bad things, "cubicish" volume, and the strong asymmetry. So consider room acoustic treatments if you are intending some high-end results at your price point of choice.

 Also, given your room size, it definitely doesn't look like a good idea to have magnepans, or tower speakers. Bookshelves would be more appropriate.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


 _Originally posted by rsaavedr _
* Bookshelves would be more appropriate. * 
 

 rsaavedr, I agree. My listening room is a similiar shape/size. I sold floorstanding PSB Stratus Bronze as they simply would not position properly. My standmounted speakers are much easier to position.


----------



## ooheadsoo

fliz, we all know that full range drivers are full of compromises too. They lack true bass and treble extension, and the ones that do have better treble extension probably use whizzer cones and so have beaming problems. Horn loading for bass extension makes for an expensive and hard to build cabinet and it will never have bottom end impact if you're looking for it. That's why "mostly" full range designs are so popular in the diy community. They need to be augmented (properly of course with all it entails in building a crossover right) with subs and supertweeters to be true full range. I plan on building one later because it's one of the easiest to design speakers


----------



## aerius

Quote:


 _Originally posted by eyeteeth _
 You can't put magnepans in a 14 feet by 13 feet space. Maggies want *lots* of room to breathe properly. Also the 4ohm load may be an issue for your kenwood. 
 

True, but I think there might be a way to get around it that I've seen done with Martin-Logans. The main problem with both is that they radiate a ton of sound to the rear which bounces around and does bad things, which means they have to be placed well away from a back wall. What they did was place lots of sound absorbent material on the wall behind each speaker to soak up the sound going to the back. This allowed the speakers to be placed much closer to the walls than they normally could be without screwing up the sound.


----------



## ADS

Quote:


 _Originally posted by br-- _
*You may want to look at Coincident speakers. I own a pair myself and every time I listen, I am amazed at the amount of detail, soundstage, transparency, and impact these speakers provide. * 
 

I've heard a pair of these running on an extremely nice tube setup. They sounded very similar to my DT880s actually, although not quite as smooth/detailed. Still though, they are amazing speakers, and I'd recommend them heartily for someone looking for a speaker setup.


----------



## tomek

we'll see. i have a problem with feeling like a 'gear junkie.' i may pull the trigger on these maggies, or i may not.

 the farther i move from being 'abou the music' the more i feel disappointed with myself.


----------



## Abula

In HT you should spend most of your budget as you can on SPEAKERS, recievers and prepros tend to change to much with time, and you will upgrade it more than your speakers, also even if you have a great pre pro and an incredible amp, they will only perform as good as you speakers are.

 There are a couple of forums that you might want to look before you purchase, that are as great as HEADFI, but devoted to HT.

Home Theater Forum 
AVS Forum 
AudioCircle 

 IMO, there are a lot of brands out there that can offer you a lot for your money, but its very important that you go out and audition as much as you can, most speakers have their own signatures, and there are speakers that either you love or hate like Klipsch. Some speakers manufacturers that you should check, that offer very good performance for the money, IMO are,

AXIOM Very good for the money, specially the M80ti, this kind of speakers ave very upfront and detailed, are on the bright side, but incredible detailed.

ROCKETS also very nice speakers, specially the handcraft and colors, they look very nice. Perfromance wise, they are oposite to axioms, they are very laid back and warm speakers, very good for two channel listening, the RS750 are very good floorstanigs.

ASCEND ACOUSTIC, a relatively new company that has produces some incredible bookshelfs, very detailed speakers that are not harsh, but offer you a good balance between music and HT, very nice for the money.

 And to compelte your setup, you will want a good sub, two of the best companies are,
SVS Subwoofers 
HSU Research 

 Good luck on your speaker hunting,


----------

