# What is the best Portable DAC for iPod Classic 160GB to buy?



## jcw-mini

Hello everyone,
   
  I am a newbie to the portable headphone amps.  I just bought an Apple Ipod Classic 160GB and a pair of Shure SE353 and Sennheiser HD 650.  I am looking for a portable DAC with amplifier but not shure what to buy.  I was leaning toward the Fostex HP-P1 and not sure if this is a good fit with the gear I have.  I just bought a PAV2 Headphone Amplifier from Gary due to it ranked #1 in the forum and price was affordable.  Any advices would be greatly Appreciated. 
   
  Thanks.
   
  Travis.


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## Head Injury

Why do you want an amp? Are you wanting to use your Sennheisers with your iPod?


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## dgriffter

iPod classic has its own internal dac, so you only really generally need a portable amp, such as the one you already have. There are products which bypass the internal dac, but they are generally expensive. HRT do one called the iStreamer and there are others such as the Fostex HP-P1.


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## jcw-mini

I wanted a richer sound that what the amp inside the ipod classic can do.  I will be using the shure se535 more often for portability.  The Hd 650 will be mainly with my destop.  It it currently hook to the DACPort ty CEntrance.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Why do you want an amp? Are you wanting to use your Sennheisers with your iPod?


 


  I wanted a richer sound that what the amp inside the ipod classic can do.  I will be using the shure se535 more often for portability.  The Hd 650 will be mainly with my destop.  It it currently hook to the DACPort ty CEntrance.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





dgriffter said:


> iPod classic has its own internal dac, so you only really generally need a portable amp, such as the one you already have. There are products which bypass the internal dac, but they are generally expensive. HRT do one called the iStreamer and there are others such as the Fostex HP-P1.


 


  Thanks.  I was looking at the Fostex HP-P1 but price is a little steep.  I am debating between the Fostex HP-P1 and the Porta Tube.  Not sure what is a good choice.  I want something that can drive both the Shure se535 and the Sennheisser HD 650.  Please advice.


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## Pudu

Advice?

Try out the Fostex or Solo to see just how 'richer' the sound is before you drop that kind of cash. The iStreamer isn't really portable. 

Edit: Also check out the Portable Source forum for more info on these guys.


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## kiwirugby

Quote:


pudu said:


> Try out the Fostex or Solo to see just how 'richer' the sound is before you drop that kind of cash.


 

  X2 on the Solo.   That's what I have been using for the past months and the sound is amazing.   Search for reviews of the ALO Solo.


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## shrimants

Just to let you know, there are only 2 portable products in existence that will bypass the ipod's internal DAC chip. Those are the ALO Solo and the HP-p1. The NuForce iDo MIGHT do it but im like 90% sure it is just an amp, like the portatube.

I'd go with the alo solo over the hp-p1. Those two products though will make the biggest difference. If you get an LOD cable for the ipod, you can bypass the ipod's volume control circuitry and internal opamp, send that pre-amped post-dac'd signal to a portable amp, and that will accomplish an audible increase in sound quality/signature. However, the portable DACs will make the biggest difference.


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## pimmedoris

This may be a stupid question, but how can an external device like de alo solo bypass the internal DAC of the ipod when it uses the same connection/LOD? I mean, it receives the same signal as any other amp/DAC?


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## Hemshemems

Quote: 





pimmedoris said:


> This may be a stupid question, but how can an external device like de alo solo bypass the internal DAC of the ipod when it uses the same connection/LOD? I mean, it receives the same signal as any other amp/DAC?


 

 The "iDacs" use USB and its a digital signal they convert from a apple unit, where all other lods are analog..


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## nanaholic

Quote: 





pimmedoris said:


> This may be a stupid question, but how can an external device like de alo solo bypass the internal DAC of the ipod when it uses the same connection/LOD? I mean, it receives the same signal as any other amp/DAC?


 

 The iStuff connector has pin connections for analogue sound signals as well as digital data signals in both USB and Fireware form (one of the reason why it is so big and wide is because it has lots of pins for different purposes), it's just a matter of hooking to the right pins for the different application.  LOD is wired to the analogue sound signal pins and the Solo etc hooks to the USB data pins.


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## pimmedoris

Ah, I get it. Thanks for clearing that up!


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## shrimants

That dock connector has 30 different pins on it. Each pin has a different function. Theres a couple pins meant specifically for USB power, one meant for usb Tx, one meant for usb Rx, one meant for ground. Theres some meant for LINE OUT, which is what the LOD's do. They connect specifically to those LOD pins so that the ipod's internal volume control stuff gets "disabled". That is why if you plug your ipod into a dock, you never can use the clickwheel to control the volume.

The Cypherlabs Algorythm Solo, Fostex HP-P1, and NuForce Icon iDo all use that same dock CONNECTOR, but the inside of that connector is wired differently. Essentially, what those products are doing is reading the actual encrypted file on the ipod, unencrypting it (the same way itunes does), sending it through the product's OWN DAC chip, through the product's own op-amp and volume control, and THEN out of your headphones.

Think of the DAC's as plugging your ipod into your computer and using itunes to play files off of the ipod itself.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





pudu said:


> Advice?
> Try out the Fostex or Solo to see just how 'richer' the sound is before you drop that kind of cash. The iStreamer isn't really portable.
> Edit: Also check out the Portable Source forum for more info on these guys.


 


  Thanks for your advice.  I'll see if I can find a local store in Las Vegas where I can try out both amps.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> Just to let you know, there are only 2 portable products in existence that will bypass the ipod's internal DAC chip. Those are the ALO Solo and the HP-p1. The NuForce iDo MIGHT do it but im like 90% sure it is just an amp, like the portatube.
> I'd go with the alo solo over the hp-p1. Those two products though will make the biggest difference. If you get an LOD cable for the ipod, you can bypass the ipod's volume control circuitry and internal opamp, send that pre-amped post-dac'd signal to a portable amp, and that will accomplish an audible increase in sound quality/signature. However, the portable DACs will make the biggest difference.


 


  Thank You for your advice.  I will definitely take a closer look at the ALO Solo.  I just got my Shure se535 today and it sound pretty good but I know it can be better with the right portable amp.
  I will keep you posted on which amp I decided to go with.  Many Thanks.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





pimmedoris said:


> Ah, I get it. Thanks for clearing that up!


 


  Thank You everyone for all your great feedback.  I am learning so much about these hi-fi headphones.  Many Thanks.


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## shrimants

EDIT: nvm, read the post on the wrong page. Thought you still didnt get it. my bad.

EDIT 2: You DO realize that theres differences betweem AMPS and DACS, right? You keep saying "you'll try out some amp". the alo and hpp1 both have amps IN them, but both are DACs. Dont get them thinking they are purely amps. They are more expensive and a better purchase. If you are after an AMP ONLY, though, then just go with one of Fiio's things. E11 or E6.

Once again, just for clarification: Amp is NOT dac.

ALO solo = dac
fostex hpp1 = dac
EDIT 3: NuForce Icon iDo = DAC, nonportable.

fiio e11, e6 = amp

HUGE difference in the two, both price-wise and functionally.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> EDIT: nvm, read the post on the wrong page. Thought you still didnt get it. my bad.
> EDIT 2: You DO realize that theres differences betweem AMPS and DACS, right? You keep saying "you'll try out some amp". the alo and hpp1 both have amps IN them, but both are DACs. Dont get them thinking they are purely amps. They are more expensive and a better purchase. If you are after an AMP ONLY, though, then just go with one of Fiio's things. E11 or E6.
> Once again, just for clarification: Amp is NOT dac.
> ALO solo = dac
> ...


 

 Great,  I mean Amps and DACS.  I really like the Fostex HP-P1 due to portability.  However, it is not in stock in most stores yet.  I found in one in Moon Audio and tempted to order one.  Thanks again for clearing up the details.


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## shrimants

Both fostex and ALO solo are portable. The alo solo is in a smaller form factor than the fostex hpp1. i recommend you take a look at Jude's head-fi TV videos. he covers the ALO Solo around ep. 4 and the HP-P1 around ep. 8 or so. He found that he greatly prefered the ALO Solo's greater array of features and sound quality over the HP-P1. the HP-P1 also has a rather unwieldy volume knob.

700 bucks is not a small amount of money for any audiophile. Unless you're filthy rich and can afford to randomly throw around money I suggest you really do some research on your own. I'm kind of getting the vibe that you'll just buy whatever people tell you to.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> Both fostex and ALO solo are portable. The alo solo is in a smaller form factor than the fostex hpp1. i recommend you take a look at Jude's head-fi TV videos. he covers the ALO Solo around ep. 4 and the HP-P1 around ep. 8 or so. He found that he greatly prefered the ALO Solo's greater array of features and sound quality over the HP-P1. the HP-P1 also has a rather unwieldy volume knob.
> 700 bucks is not a small amount of money for any audiophile. Unless you're filthy rich and can afford to randomly throw around money I suggest you really do some research on your own. I'm kind of getting the vibe that you'll just buy whatever people tell you to.


 


  Thanks.  I'll do some more research and see which one is best.


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## milosolo

Have you run across the fiio e7 amp/dac or e11 amp? These are well regarded units and they are reasonably priced. You'll want a fairly powerful amp to drive the HD650 with any authority.


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## shrimants

E7 is a dac only via USB. E11 is an amp standalone. The ALO and the Fostex HPP1 are both dacs that work for a standalone ipod.

E7 attached to IPOD via LOD is ONLY ANALOG.

E11 is ONLY ANALOG no matter what.

ALO and Fostex are DACS.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> E7 is a dac only via USB. E11 is an amp standalone. The ALO and the Fostex HPP1 are both dacs that work for a standalone ipod.
> E7 attached to IPOD via LOD is ONLY ANALOG.
> E11 is ONLY ANALOG no matter what.
> ALO and Fostex are DACS.


 


  Do you think the ALO and Fostex amp is a good match for the shute se535 and the HD650?  Many Thanks.


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## shrimants

Both ALO and HPP1 will drive those headphones just fine. They will only have trouble with the infamously hard to drive ones, like audeze lcd2/3 or Hifiman He6 or 600 or whatever that one magneplanar was. I dont own either one so I cant say based on experience.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> Both ALO and HPP1 will drive those headphones just fine. They will only have trouble with the infamously hard to drive ones, like audeze lcd2/3 or Hifiman He6 or 600 or whatever that one magneplanar was. I dont own either one so I cant say based on experience.


 


  Thanks.


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## AnakChan

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> ALO solo = dac
> fostex hpp1 = dac


 
  If I may, I'd like to clarify something for jcw-mini.
   
  ALO Solo  (aka Cypherlabs Algorhythm Solo or CLAS for short) is _not the same_ as the Fostex HP-P1. I have both. I don't know if jcw-mini is aware of this cos I re-read the thread twice and it wasn't clearly mentioned but :-

 CLAS = DAC mode or transport mode
  Fostex HP-P1 = DAC mode, Transport and/or Amp
   
  i.e. if you buy the HP-P1, it's a DAC and an Amp. But if you buy the CLAS it's only a DAC and you'll still need to buy another amp. You cannot plug your headphones straight into the CLAS. That is why the HP-P1 has a volume knob whereas the CLAS doesn't.
   
  So with the Fostex HP-P1, you carry only your iPod+HP-P1+headphones. But for the ALO Solo you carry iPod+CLAS+Amp+headphones.
   
  If you guys are aware of this, then my apologies but as mentioned, I don't recall this being clearly stated in earlier posts of this thread.


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## ThomasH

Sorry for intruding into this topic, but responding to the post above. So If I have a DAC, but also something like a Fiio L9 that has a line-out to headphone plug, how does that work? Or does my LOD need to be ipod connector to USB --> DAC --> regular audio jack --> amp --> headphone.


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## AnakChan

@ThomasH, Between the iPod/iPad/iPhone & the DAC, you'll need a USB LOD like this :-
  

   
  Maybe the various combinations are best represented in pictures. Here are some examples of misc combinations. Note I can't show the CLAS or HP-P1 as transport 'cos I don't have a separate DAC that takes optical or coax in.
   
  1) iPad + USB LOD cable + CLAS DAC + mini2mini cable + Pico Slim Amp + headphones

  
  2) iPad + USB LOD cable + HP-P1 (in DAC&Amp mode) + headphones

   
  3) iPad + USB LOD cable + HP-P1 (in DAC mode) + mini2mini cable + Pico Slim Amp + headphones

   
  4) iPad + USB LOD cable + CLAS DAC + mini2mini cable + HP-P1 (in DAC mode) + headphones ----- why would you want to do this!? P1's amp is not its forte, chunkier rig to carry

   
  5) iPad + LOD cable + Pico Slim Amp + headphones (therefore using iPad's internal Cirrus Logic DAC)

   
  6) iPad + LOD cable + HP-P1 (in DAC mode) + headphones (therefore using iPad's internal Cirrus Logic DAC) ----- why would you want to do this!? P1's amp is not its forte.

   
  Notes:
  It's not recommended to do (4) & (6) 'cos the HP-P1's amp although good is not it's forte.
  As you can see though functionality-wise the HP-P1 is extremely versatile - it can be used as a DAC/Amp, DAC-only, Amp-only (but why!!??)
  With the CLAS you have to budget extra to buy a separate amp. Having said that, it's a _very good_ DAC!!


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## Kepic

Nice Demo!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  Quote: 





anakchan said:


> @ThomasH, Between the iPod/iPad/iPhone & the DAC, you'll need a USB LOD like this :-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jcw-mini

anakchan said:


> If I may, I'd like to clarify something for jcw-mini.
> 
> ALO Solo  (aka Cypherlabs Algorhythm Solo or CLAS for short) is _not the same_ as the Fostex HP-P1. I have both. I don't know if jcw-mini is aware of this cos I re-read the thread twice and it wasn't clearly mentioned but :-
> 
> ...





Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't think the AOL CLAS has an amp built-in.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





kepic said:


> Nice Demo!!!!


 


  I am leaning on purchasing the Fostex HP-P1 but not sure if the amp will be compatible with my Sennheiser HD650? Please advice.
  I bought a Electric Avenues PA2V2 for my Shure SE535 and it sound excellent and I am liking more as day goes by.  I hope to use the Fostex HP-P1 will be a good match for the HD650.
  Please give me your input.  Many Thanks.
   


  Quote: 





anakchan said:


> If I may, I'd like to clarify something for jcw-mini.
> 
> ALO Solo  (aka Cypherlabs Algorhythm Solo or CLAS for short) is _not the same_ as the Fostex HP-P1. I have both. I don't know if jcw-mini is aware of this cos I re-read the thread twice and it wasn't clearly mentioned but :-
> 
> ...


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## AnakChan

Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with the HD650. Have a look at Jude's video review :-
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/570149/fostex-hp-p1-portable-dac-for-iphone-ipod-and-ipad-with-built-in-headphone-amp-head-fi-tv-episode-011
   
  He talks about difficult to drive headphones around the 8:55 mark, and easy to drive headphones around the 11:00 mark. Although the HD650 isn't mentioned, he talks about the other headphones. If you know where the HD650 lies amongst the models he's mentioned, you may be able to determine if the HP-P1 is suitable for your headphones or not.


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## jcw-mini

Quote: 





anakchan said:


> Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with the HD650. Have a look at Jude's video review :-
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/570149/fostex-hp-p1-portable-dac-for-iphone-ipod-and-ipad-with-built-in-headphone-amp-head-fi-tv-episode-011
> 
> He talks about difficult to drive headphones around the 8:55 mark, and easy to drive headphones around the 11:00 mark. Although the HD650 isn't mentioned, he talks about the other headphones. If you know where the HD650 lies amongst the models he's mentioned, you may be able to determine if the HP-P1 is suitable for your headphones or not.


 


  Yes, I watched the video.  But did not hear that it is a good match for the HD650.  Do you like your Fostex HP-P1?  What are you paring it with?  Thanks for your input.  I appreciate it very much.


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## AnakChan

For pretty much the past 6 weeks it's been the iPad1+HP-P1+Pico Slim+Ultrasone Ed8's. When I first bought the HP-P1, I wasn't all that impressed with the amp as it sounded dark and the highs were veiled. My friend loaned me his Predator (which I used as the amp) and since then I had used the HP-P1 almost exclusively in DAC mode only. I immediately went out to buy a Pico Slim soon after as I couldn't borrow my friends Predator forever.
   
  As Jude said, if one were to use the HP-P1 with an external amp, then you're better off with a CLAS since DAC2DAC, the CLAS is a smaller form factor, so I picked up the CLAS after the Tokyo Headphone Festival from Ken/ALO.
   
  What I didn't realise was the HP-P1's amp just needed more time for burning in to open up. So recently when I went back to just using it as a DAC/Amp, I was surprised it has improved so much - despite me using it only as a DAC-only, I did inadvertently burn it in over the past few weeks. The difference between the HP-P1 DAC/Amp now and HP-P1+Pico Slim has narrowed considerably and if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have been happy enough with the HP-P1 and didn't need an external amp.
   
  One thing to know though is that there is still a difference of the HP-P1's amp vs the Pico Slim, in that the soundstage with the Pico Slim is still a little wider and deeper. However, at this point, since the gap is narrowed so much compared to a month ago, it's merely a question of personal taste and budget if that difference is worth a Pico Slim (6 weeks ago, I'd say yes...but now, not so).
   
   
  What's my personal final setup? Once I get my UM IEMs back from repair (and new ones made) I'll test again but I think there's a very high chance I'm going for the CLAS+Pico Slim setup for now, and for the Rx MkIII Balanced instead (and get my Ed8's balanced too). Portability is not an issue for me as I have another alternative for portability (the Go-DAP 4.0 + iPhone 4S). Therefore the iPad+CLAS+PicoSlim/RxMkIII+Ed8s will just get thrown into my satchel.
   
  From what you've written before, if you want portability for your iPod, the only official way is the HP-P1 but I'd say give it a chance to burn in to get the most out of it. If you opt for SQ over portability/price, then the CLAS+whatever amp you choose.
   
  P.S. I wrote "official" 'cos there are ways to interface your iPod/iPad/Touch with the VentureCraft Go-DAP 4.0 and I've done it myself with just a very simple dock extension cable. This is also extremely portable - but officially, the Go-DAP is meant to be for iPhones.
  P.P.S. I'm also trying another unofficial combination of Dock->USB converters to try to use the iPad with a -standard- USB DAC. This is to bypass Apple's 20mAh limitation on the iPad. And if this works, it expands the choices of USB DACs considerably.


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## TwoTrack

I've been listening to a wide variety of DACs and the CLAS is the one I am zeroing in on.  It's a bit pricey but really offers some real high end audio sound based on several listening sessions I have had with a variety of cans.  The LCD plus Rx2 plus CLAS sounded fairly amazing at Rocky Mountain.


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## Mochan

Quote: 





jcw-mini said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am a newbie to the portable headphone amps.  I just bought an Apple Ipod Classic 160GB and a pair of Shure SE353 and Sennheiser HD 650.  I am looking for a portable DAC with amplifier but not shure what to buy.  I was leaning toward the Fostex HP-P1 and not sure if this is a good fit with the gear I have.  I just bought a PAV2 Headphone Amplifier from Gary due to it ranked #1 in the forum and price was affordable.  Any advices would be greatly Appreciated.
> 
> ...


 
   
  There are only two portable DACs for the iPod in the world today. One is the HP-P1, the other is the CLAS.  There are currently no other options outside of rigging an iDo or i20 with something like an Energizer battery pack.


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## bevano

Hey guys. since the ipod classic has a DAC already if I'm correct. is there a major difference if u bypass the built-in DAC and use a DAC/AMP? i have a 8th generation ipod classic by the way


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## shrimants

The biggest difference would be getting a proper line out signal and being able to go from one digital format to a different digital format (IE usb to optical or coax). The secondary difference would be in how finnicky the output can be in relation to the load it is driving. For example the ipod's headphone jack performs a bunch better on a high impedance load (80 ohms) than it does with a low impedance load (16 ohms). With the low impedance load the roll off is horrid, with the 80 ohm load the roll off isnt as bad. However with a dedicated external dac, you can offload this sort of problem to the dac/amp combo itself.

Honestly though with the quality of the ipod's internal DAC, I dont see why one wouldnt just get an LOD and plug that into an amp. It isnt ideal for using the ipod as an input source but the ipod isnt really designed to be a dedicated input source anyways.


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## FrankATL

shrimants said:


> The biggest difference would be getting a proper line out signal and being able to go from one digital format to a different digital format (IE usb to optical or coax). The secondary difference would be in how finnicky the output can be in relation to the load it is driving. For example the ipod's headphone jack performs a bunch better on a high impedance load (80 ohms) than it does with a low impedance load (16 ohms). With the low impedance load the roll off is horrid, with the 80 ohm load the roll off isnt as bad. However with a dedicated external dac, you can offload this sort of problem to the dac/amp combo itself.
> Honestly though with the quality of the ipod's internal DAC, I dont see why one wouldnt just get an LOD and plug that into an amp. It isnt ideal for using the ipod as an input source but the ipod isnt really designed to be a dedicated input source anyways.




I do not believe this to be correct. The line out of an iDevice is analog. The USB out, which requires a chip in the DAC to communicate with the device, is the only way to get a digital signal out. The benefit of this is due to the poor bit/sample rate of the internal DAC chip in iDevices, which seems to be 16 bit/48Khz. The DAC in the Solo, for example, provides 24 bit/96Khz. I believe this is CD quality. Don't hold me to any of this, as I am no engineer, but I believe it is correct.


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## shrimants

frankatl said:


> I do not believe this to be correct. The line out of an iDevice is analog. The USB out, which requires a chip in the DAC to communicate with the device, is the only way to get a digital signal out. The benefit of this is due to the poor bit/sample rate of the internal DAC chip in iDevices, which seems to be 16 bit/48Khz. The DAC in the Solo, for example, provides 24 bit/96Khz. I believe this is CD quality. Don't hold me to any of this, as I am no engineer, but I believe it is correct.




1) At some point in time, you have to get the analog signal out of the DAC. This is what an LOD does.

2) CD quality is 16 bit, 44.1 khz or 16 bit, 48khz.

3) Ipod's own sync mechanism and internal audio will support up to 24 bit audio but only 44.1 or 48khz sampling rate, and I'm not too sure about 48khz either.

4) I'm fairly sure itunes will not transfer files that are incompatible with ipod format, nor will itunes play formats incompatible with ipod itself. This makes items like clas and hpp1 completely useless unless you have a true problem with ipod dac's output.

5) iDevice like CLAS or HPP1 makes it impossible to use rockbox for ipod classic (which is now stable enough for day to day use)

Now for the pros:

1) if you use an iDevice like clas or hpp1 or a wadia iTransport, you are essentially using the ipod as a simple external hard drive.

2) iDevice will give you very close to proper line level voltages

3) iDevice will do a better job with input/output impedance and work better overall with gear

4) iDevice DAC FAR outperforms ipod built in DAC, and provides an exceptionally more clear signal

So basically, if you have no problem with .7 volts RMS out of the ipod's stock DAC, you might as well get the line out dock for 10 bucks and call it a day with whatever amp. However, if you do feel that you have a high end enough rig to warrant a different DAC than ipod's own internal DAC, you should get the HPP1 or CLAS or whatever iTransport you want.


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## FrankATL

shrimants said:


> 1) At some point in time, you have to get the analog signal out of the DAC. This is what an LOD does.
> 2) CD quality is 16 bit, 44.1 khz or 16 bit, 48khz.
> 3) Ipod's own sync mechanism and internal audio will support up to 24 bit audio but only 44.1 or 48khz sampling rate, and I'm not too sure about 48khz either.
> 4) I'm fairly sure itunes will not transfer files that are incompatible with ipod format, nor will itunes play formats incompatible with ipod itself. This makes items like clas and hpp1 completely useless unless you have a true problem with ipod dac's output.
> ...




Thanks for clarifying. I currently use an LoD and Fiio E11. I think it sounds good enough with my current headphone/earphone inventory (my 250 ohm DT880s leave me wanting more volume at times, but that's an amp issue), but am saving for a CLAS in hopes of improvement now, and with an eye toward future can upgrades. Most of what I've read, external DACs using the digital signal from an iPhone/iPad make for a fairly large SQ improvement. I haven't gotten mine yet, so all I can go off of are others impressions.


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## shrimants

frankatl said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I currently use an LoD and Fiio E11. I think it sounds good enough with my current headphone/earphone inventory (my 250 ohm DT880s leave me wanting more volume at times, but that's an amp issue), but am saving for a CLAS in hopes of improvement now, and with an eye toward future can upgrades. Most of what I've read, external DACs using the digital signal from an iPhone/iPad make for a fairly large SQ improvement. I haven't gotten mine yet, so all I can go off of are others impressions.




I use ipod classic with fiio E11 also, though I use ath-m50 with srh-840 earpads (slightlyreduced and very controlled bass, harsher treble, sounds like beyerdynamics). Make sure your E11 is set to high power mode, the switch is underneath the battery. I wouldnt save for a CLAS if I were you, there are MUCH better options. The CLAS will give you closer to line level voltages but it would make more sense to simply get an amp that can amplify the ipod's signal to acceptable levels. I think CLAS and whatnot would definitely make an SQ improvement, but what I dont agree with is buying a 300 dollar ipod, pairing it with a 500-600 dollar CLAS, and then having ANOTHER amp, probably a 100-200 dollar portable one, to pair with the CLAS, which cant be used standalone because it is a DAC only. The HPP1, likewise, is 800 bucks and costs about the same as getting the CLAS and a worthwhile amp. The ipod wasnt designed with audiophile quality in mind in the first place. It doesnt make sense to buy 1000 bucks total worth of gear when you can easily get, for example, iBasso's dac, or any nice tablet/laptop/netbook with a halfway decent external dac/amp combo, or one of the multitude of high end sources. Hell, teclast T51, nationite S:flo 2, colorfly ck4, hifiman 601, 602, 801. Theres tons of hifi alternatives to getting a ****ty ipod and trying to fix it for 800 bucks.

EDIT: I did use my ipod LOD as a source going to RSA Darkstar -> Hifiman HE-6. I had to turn the darkstar up to 75% to get the volume to comfortable listening levels. RSA blew up his HE-6 at around that volume, so that was not a good thign to do, but since the output of the LOD is so low it makes it hard to get respectable volume out of any amp. This is where the CLAS is especially useful. However, at that point you might as well use a laptop or a wadia iTransport.

I dunno, clas and hpp1 dont really make any sense to me.


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## FrankATL

shrimants said:


> I use ipod classic with fiio E11 also, though I use ath-m50 with srh-840 earpads (slightlyreduced and very controlled bass, harsher treble, sounds like beyerdynamics). Make sure your E11 is set to high power mode, the switch is underneath the battery. I wouldnt save for a CLAS if I were you, there are MUCH better options. The CLAS will give you closer to line level voltages but it would make more sense to simply get an amp that can amplify the ipod's signal to acceptable levels. I think CLAS and whatnot would definitely make an SQ improvement, but what I dont agree with is buying a 300 dollar ipod, pairing it with a 500-600 dollar CLAS, and then having ANOTHER amp, probably a 100-200 dollar portable one, to pair with the CLAS, which cant be used standalone because it is a DAC only. The HPP1, likewise, is 800 bucks and costs about the same as getting the CLAS and a worthwhile amp. The ipod wasnt designed with audiophile quality in mind in the first place. It doesnt make sense to buy 1000 bucks total worth of gear when you can easily get, for example, iBasso's dac, or any nice tablet/laptop/netbook with a halfway decent external dac/amp combo, or one of the multitude of high end sources. Hell, teclast T51, nationite S:flo 2, colorfly ck4, hifiman 601, 602, 801. Theres tons of hifi alternatives to getting a ****ty ipod and trying to fix it for 800 bucks.
> EDIT: I did use my ipod LOD as a source going to RSA Darkstar -> Hifiman HE-6. I had to turn the darkstar up to 75% to get the volume to comfortable listening levels. RSA blew up his HE-6 at around that volume, so that was not a good thign to do, but since the output of the LOD is so low it makes it hard to get respectable volume out of any amp. This is where the CLAS is especially useful. However, at that point you might as well use a laptop or a wadia iTransport.
> I dunno, clas and hpp1 dont really make any sense to me.




Yeah, I found the hi/low power switch pretty quickly after getting the 880s, but thanks . As for other sources, I am very sure that is absolutely true. Unfortunately my iPhone and iPad had become pretty intricately woven into my life, before I caught the audio bug. I use them daily for work, watching movies web surfing, etc. I guess that is one thing apple does really well. Becomes a part of your life, for better or worse. Another source is an option, but would be another device to carry. It's either iphone+CLAS+amp+cans, or iPhone+DAP+amp+cans, since I have to carry my phone and pad anyway. Plus I already have those, and would need to purchase another hifi source. It certainly isn't the most affordable portable solution, but being where I am at this point...


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## proton007

I'll suggest you to save money on the dac and spend it on a decent amp. The iPod DAC is pretty good in terms of performance (http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijligers/audio/ipod/comparison/measurements/measurements.html), and if you're using lossless files you're not likely to gain a lot by spending on the DAC than you would by changing your Headphone/amp.


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## shrimants

Thats the point i've been trying to hammer across. The ipod DAC is good enough that it should be last on your list of upgrades. If you want to spend 900 bucks on that kind of stuff you are better off getting a pair of 500-600 dollar headphones and a worthwhile portable amp than you are trying to squeeze quality out of replacing the dac.


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## FrankATL

Ok, you guys may have talked me out of an iPod specific DAC. I have also been reading that many DACs will work with the iPad, which I have, using the camera connection kit. So, anyone have a recommendation for a decent portable amp/DAC that will push enough juice for 250 ohm cans? I am not looking to upgrade my headphones yet. 

I recently purchased Beyer DT880 250 Ohms, and Grado 325is. I really love both of these phones, especially since they are night and day, as far as sound signature. I can't say I like either better. I do need an upgrade in amp, currently the Fiio E11. I really like the Fiio. It sounds uncolored to me, and even the EQ bass boost sounds to be just in the sub bass, with no bleed. It does fine with the Grados, I think they sound good even from the hp jack on my iPhone. The 880s need some help though. I need a DAC because my laptop and desktop have poor quality integrated sound. I am not ready to build a desktop rig yet, and prefer to stay portable for now. Any ideas? I have been eyeballing the iQube V3, seems a bit pricey, but also a quality build. I'm not sure the smaller amps like the pico can push the 880s to decent volume, but I may be wrong. Willing to hear suggestions. Thanks.


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## proton007

I built an O2, and have enjoyed the sound so far. It'll work fine with 250 Ohms, is clean and transparent, and is relatively cheap.
  If its your first amp, I'll suggest you go for something absolutely transparent, so you can appreciate your headphones more, since they make the biggest difference. Amps that color the sound are more of an experiment, because the amp-headphone combo might/might not work for you, and you've already bought the headphones.
  As for the dac-amp combo, the Benchmark is something I've heard great reviews about, is absolutely transparent, but its expensive ($1k).


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## shrimants

Benchmark Dac1 is an excellent reference level DAC but if i were you i'd wait for NwAvGuy's ODAC. Preliminary measurements (possibly april fools prank) show that it is measuring extraordinarily well, and is blowing the dac1 out of the water. Even if it doesnt, if the odac is anything like the O2 it will be something REALLY juicy and cheap. Way better to spend 75 bucks and get half the performance of the Dac1 than it is to spend 1500 bucks and get the dac1 performance IMO and still not have an amp to interface it with.

I thought he wanted portability though, and the O2 isnt really a form factor that i'd call portable unless you somehow mount it to the side of a backpack or messenger bag.

Ray Samuels has excellent amps for all uses, its worthwhile to read every single page of that website and commit it to memory. Also iBasso has nice high powered amps in a portable form factor with decent battery life. They also have nice dac/amp combos that offer excellent portable performance.


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## stv014

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> Benchmark Dac1 is an excellent reference level DAC but if i were you i'd wait for NwAvGuy's ODAC. Preliminary measurements (possibly april fools prank) show that it is measuring extraordinarily well


 

 It is definitely a prank, but nevertheless the previous - real - bits of information regarding the ODAC suggested pretty good performance (like an ENOB of 19 - ~114 dB dynamic range) for the price anyway.


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## FrankATL

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll check out the ODAC and O2.



shrimants said:


> Ray Samuels has excellent amps for all uses, its worthwhile to read every single page of that website and commit it to memory. Also iBasso has nice high powered amps in a portable form factor with decent battery life. They also have nice dac/amp combos that offer excellent portable performance.




I was actually checking out the RSA Predator yesterday, and emailed Ray a few questions. People seem to really like Ray's amps.


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## shrimants

Ray Samuels gets a niche idea in his head. He has experience with hundreds of headphones and amps and sometimes he'll zero in on what he feels is missing. From that point on, he'll take the hardest to drive stuff in the department and design the amp to be able to feed that stuff at 50% volume, then he'll test to make sure that even up to 75-80% that stuff has no distortion, noise, etc etc. Then he makes sure to design similarly into the amp for smaller easier to drive stuff. He has an excessively thorough proceedure and his amps are generally found to be worth every penny. They might not MEASURE perfectly, but honestly measurements barely tell any of the story, especially because sound is extraordinarily subjective and at the end of the day measurements mean different things to different people, which turns them from objective to subjective. Headfonia didnt like the O2 because it was TOO neutral. I didnt like HD600 for the same reason. I liked the HD650, which is one of the referenec headphones used to design the O2 though, meaning that either I like colored sound or NwAvGuy likes extraordinarily neutral flat colorless response from his go-to headphones. go figure.


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## Rozeqloud

ive been reading on this forum for id say over a month now , and learned alot . i decided to join today to add ( questions  to this thread .)
   
  i decided on HD 800s and SR 71B based on my reading here ,and found moon audio from here as well
   
  My setup is Ipod (160 GB ) classic , sennheiser HD 800s , SR 71B (with rays LOD ) ,and Moon audios Black dragon V2s .
   
  i was considering Cypher Labs Algorhythm Solo as a DAC , not understanding that Classics DAC and the LOD ( From Ray ) is really
  all i need . Ray , and others are of the belief , if i understood correctly , the ( military grade ) LOD passed thru the SR 71B is a
  16 bit digital output ,which wont be atall improved by any DAC . As i was told they are also 16 bit ( and in this thread have read
  cd quality is also 16 bit ? ,As an aside if so what are 24 bit masters etc...as i think i recently got a 24 bit remaster cd of Supertramp )
   
  So is the signal out from LOD to amp digital ? Seems im getting confused . If not how is LOD out to SR 71B as good as a DAC ?
   
  i also read the link provided here to the hifivoivce , my head hurt a bit to read , and it was nt clear whether s/he was using which
  output of the ipod . S/he also does not seem to like the Ipods ( classic circuitry/sound ) . So knowing what output used would
  indeed be helpful .
   
  So to re phrase , is my setup ( audio superiority wise ) going to be vastly improved with Algorhythm Solo ? i say vastly , as
  it will take many months to save for one . i say MY setup , as im sure others vary , and such may or may not improve
  some setups
   
  Cheers


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## proton007

There may not be a noticeable improvement in sound, but you'll have the satisfaction of buying something shiny and cool looking. They use a wolfson dac. Which one they don't say.


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## Rozeqloud

I love shiny new cool looking toys .
   
  So no big improvement ...disappointing , but may save me dinero


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## proton007

Quote: 





rozeqloud said:


> I love shiny new cool looking toys .
> 
> So no big improvement ...disappointing , but may save me dinero


 


  I know, hard to resist. But better yet, spend it on speakers/headphones.


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## ArmyDicked

You telling me the DAC squeezed into the iPOD Classic 160GB is as good as a pair of DUAL SE9018 Siber 32bit DACs? I don't think so!!!  I think the questioner has a good point expressed poorly.  An iPOD Classic is a portable audio device already.  The question is the Paradyme (sic) Shift it represents.  I don't use CDs anymore so my ADCOM GCD 570 sits beneith my OPPO Universal Player.  I plug my Apple iPOD Classic (permanently mounted in my trunk of my Miata) or my iPhone 4S (32GB) else hook my Lenovo G560 directly to my Acurus RL11 Line Stage Pre-amp (via a Monster Cable mini-plug to Y RCA Inter-connects) and I have music.  The problem is, it doesn't have the liquidity and soundstage I got when I dropped a CD into my OPPO and ported it out through my Acurus RL11 Pre.  My iPhone 4S is missing my 3 dimentionality and I need something to address it.  Yes, I could get the new OPPO and improve the sound of my iPhone---but why drop $1,000.00 on a Blu Ray player when Blu Rays are about to be rendered obsolete
  [GREAT!!!  I'll just stack my blu rays with my DVDs and my CDs and my Cassettes and my 8tracks with my banished LPs & 45s!!!].


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## shrimants

yeah, i'm not saying its better or worse than your large E-Peen sound rig. I'm saying that you have a nice thin ipod that has a nice linear frequency response curve out of the DAC and the ipod itself only supports 24/44.1. Why would you want a 32 bit dac for 16/44.1 audio? Why would you spend DOUBLE the cost of the ipod trying to make it good when you can spend that same amount on an HM601, HM605, HM801, or even a crappy cowon player and get all kinds of nice sound output?

But hey, while you are at it, why not just carry around a netbook with a battery pack bigger than your desktop computer and also carry around a nice multi-thousand dollar UPS attached to all your favorite DAC/AMP devices, which then go into your nice 40 pound speakers with a headband over them?

Thers a point at which portability becomes inconvenient for the amount of functionality you get. With ipod the point is not to have a really nice audiophile quality travel rig. The point is to have a single small package to store thousands of songs on that you can call up on the go. If you have to make it weigh 5 times more and be 4 times thicker and cost 4 times as much, just pull out a decent laptop with a nice usb-powered DAC/Amp combo and use that. Dont come in here trying to name drop without even including a model number with any of your supposed gear and try to derail a thread. No one is saying that ipod classic 160gb is the end-all be-all in audio. We are saying that if you pay 1500 bucks for what should be a 300 dollar total purchase (not including headphones), you are either absolutely loaded and can afford a butler to carry around your "portable" rig or you are some kind of complete moron.


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## AnakChan

Everyone has their own opinion and it's good to share what we like and prioritise for ourselves. I'm not here to force or coerce others to my standards and my priorities. But I'm happy to share what's important to me, and you as the reader can see if you can relate to me.
   
  To me personally, I can't listen out of the iPod straight, nor iPod-LOD-Amp. I've been listening to some sort of rig for so long that at least to my ears and to my earphones/headphones an _external DAC does matter_ - up to the point that it's worthy of carrying the rig. Heck I just throw it into my satchel anyway. If I don't carry my satchel, then I'd still listen to my iPhone via the Go-DAP DAC/Amp.
   
  A little more about the earphones/headphones synergy with the rest of the components:  At least in my past year of playing with HP-P1, CLAS, Pico Slim, SR-71B, and Go-DAPs, some headphones benefit greatly from these components, whist others don't.  e..g. my V-Moda M-80 benefits little whilst my Ultrasone Ed8s benefit greatly. My Unique Melody Merlin's benefit quite well  from these components, meanwhile other Unique Melody SE530x8 actually _needs_ the components to sound decent.
   
  So this is to my ears....all I can say is "try" - either at your local store, or better still organise an audio meet in your local city.


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## proton007

Quote: 





armydicked said:


> You telling me the DAC squeezed into the iPOD Classic 160GB is as good as a pair of DUAL SE9018 Siber 32bit DACs? I don't think so!!!


 
   
  No one's saying that. And frankly, I don't know if its good or better because I haven't seen any measurements of the DAC you mention.
  What I do know is that
  a) Performance differences are going to be small, maybe inaudible.
  b) Price differences are going to be enormous.
  c) Might be overkill (like you say, 32 bit DAC for a 16/24 bit input).
  d) Scope for experimentation needs you to spend a lot of money, which may or may not give you results, and may not be within everyone's budget, especially for a first time buyer.
   
  Quote: 





shrimants said:


> We are saying that if you pay 1500 bucks for what should be a 300 dollar total purchase (not including headphones), you are either absolutely loaded and can afford a butler to carry around your "portable" rig or you are some kind of complete moron.


 
   
  At that price point, I Agree.


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## Intuvati

I'm glad this thread is not a really old one, I wasn't going to post anything but since we're all still alive i thought I would.
 I've got an 8th (i think??? its the newest anyway) generation ipod classic. for quite some time, i've been using an outboard dac/amp combo (2009 zero w/ discrete opamps), and have just recently received a little dot mk III (LOVE IT)

 Question. most times i just use the dac as preamp and go into the HP amp that way, but sometimes I like to take the little-dot out to my couch in the living room and just go horizontal and enjoy it that way. For this I use my ipod classic with a belkin cable that splits to l/r cables into the back of the headphone amp. I most certainly notice a simliar nice quality, but its certainly not as clear as with the outboard dac, and there is a faint hissy sound. I can live with it, but I was wondering, if i got this, if it would be better. I know its not a "portable" set up but i do often like to take my little-dot out of my computer room, which has no couch ;(

 I've been hearing mixed things about the "line out" of the classic not actually being what it should, and was wondering if the line out is actually better.

 Also, i thought ipods/itunes topped out with the apple-lossless format limited to 24/48...
 I once had to downsample (don't worry, i kept the originals  ) some high quality 24bit/192khz stuff down to 24/48 so that it could go from flac to apple-lossless. the downmixed stuff seems to play fine both in itunes and on my ipod, and is of course noticeably cleaner sounding than my lossless ripped cd's.


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## DigitalFreak

My oh my all this arguing over a simple mobile rig. My personal view on all this is if I'm going to spend 1000 plus bones on a CLAS/amp combo why not just forgo the pricey and bulky mobile rig and throw the money into a great sounding home rig? For a thousand plus bones you can easily get quite a nice home rig put together that's nothing to sneeze at. The OP of the thread wanted a solution concerning a nice sounding mobile rig and was obviously not sure where to go and in my opinion was obviously mentioning gear from Cypher Labs and Fostex because of all the hype these two products have been garnering from head-fiers. I'm sure these products sound quite nice but there's really a simpler solution and what the OP should keep in mind is most of the people who have these Fostex and Cypher Labs rigs mostly don't use them on the go. Yes I'm sure some people have these so called mobile rigs in their carry bags etc but you only have to read through some of the threads on here before you start to notice the majority of the posters are using them more as a mobile solution for when they're at work in the office.
   
  If someone wants slightly better audio quality from their iPod in my opinion there's a far better and much cheaper solution. As suggested before on the thread just get yourself a nice little amp and a Fiio LOD and save yourself a lot of money and frustration lugging a large stack around in your backpack. Below is the route I chose to take. Small simple clean and sounds great with all my IEM's and doesn't require me having to lug a series of bricks around everywhere I go. As an added bonus it also has a DAC which although I can't use with my iPod I can use with my laptop when I'm at a coffee shop and add a little more depth to my music.


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## lambdacalc

Personally, I have gotten fantastic results with an iPod Classic, filled with Apple lossless files, plugged via a $5 or $10 LOD into my Grado RA-1 headphone amp, and driving my Grado RS-2's. (I know Grado are a matter of personal preference, but I happen to quite enjoy their 'house sound.') 
   
  It's not exactly a "mobile rig" in the sense that I'd want to bring it on the subway with me or listen in a park or crowded coffee shop, but then that's not what open cans are for anyway.  I have found this rig to be exceptionally suitable for bringing my favorite music with me to work and then taking it home again to listen in bed, on the couch, or while working from the home office.  Portability?  Check.  But within reason.
   
  I have been pondering either upgrading my headphones (thinking about the Grado GS-1000) or getting a DAC like the CLAS.  After reading this thread, I think I'll focus on better (or different sounding) cans first.


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## ArmyDicked

Let us agree to disagree with me disagreeing to what you just said.  The Neanderthal evolution of Hominids is find for some people. Me? I want to push the envelope and max out the possibilities of my gear.  I'm not into BLING BLING---I want true value for the dollar expenditures.  MUSIC Floats my boat and it should you, shrimants!!!  FYI, I rarely even see my Ipod 160GB Classic Ipod.  It is permenantly locked in the trunk of my Miata, attached to a high speed cable for my Alpine IDA X001 tuner/mp3 device.  So what is my priority Musical device? My iPhone 4S (32GB).  I paid $300.00 for the puppy and you would assume people would be happy with Apple's free IBUDS. Sadly, it ain't the case.  I am a returning veteran sucking up Accounting Classes on your tax dollars and I was SHOCKED at what I saw.  GEN M types all walking around campus with high quality cans rapped around their throats!!!  They all looked like Tiger I tank crews but playing killer jams.      I counted 40 plus students with Klipsch, B&W, Bose, Monster Cable, Grado and other High End phones hooked up to their SMART PHONES!!!  
  As a Geezer-American, I am stunned what is coming out of the mouths of GEN M types. Music matters but only from the 60s & the 80s DITTO!!! LP's rule, dude. DITTO DITTO!!! You Know WHY that is, 'Skinny-Puppy? 400 KBs per Channel---its the THROUGH-PUT, STUPID!!!  At best, we are stuck with AIFF 256KB HI DEF or garbage 128KB as downloaded off YouTube.
  I won a small scholarship of $300.00 and you know what I did with it? I ran to the nearest Good Guys and bought a Bose AE2 Headphone (almost as good as the Klipsch cans).  My Bose AE2s are not in the same league as my STAX Lamda Jr with SR84 power units but it'll drink, as they say.
   
  I like my iPhone 4S but it needs its own portable AMP and DAC.  I am eying a portable amp that goes for $300 and is about the size of a CIGARETTE PACK of 120mm cigarettes.  When I am in a hotel room with a brief due in Court in 4 days and I'm got to pull an all nighter (no hooker), I need musical stimulation and that is my iPhone 4S 32(GB) with portable amp. Wanna know the current TOY I am lusting for? Brookstone has a projector for my iPhone 4S that is about the size of a cigarette pack but throws a 17"x17" HIDEF Image against any wall.  Think of it---I can go walk into a client's office, whip out my iPhone and plug in my hip-projector and say "Here's the latest from Spain---they're on for a general strike and I'm buying 100,000 gallons of Madrid regular Gasoline with a March 2013 future---you in or out?!!!  Music is my perk to myself. Right now, I'm swirling outstanding Woodford Reserve Bourbon while writing this, my Bose AE2 rocking out to THE LUCY SHOW (80s band)!!!  FYI, the Siber 9018s Dual Dacs rock---they are the ones OPPO uses in their top players.  Its like the difference between a FINE CREME BROULET and a Hostess Twinkie!


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## Angular Mo

For true portable, I use an iPod Touch plus Fiio E17, or Electric Avenue PA2V2.
   
  When I am able to lug something in a bag I run my HRT iStreamer powered with an external SONY USB battery.... I call it a poor man's CLAS, or lo CLAS solution.


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## ArmyDicked

ArmyDicked, YOU ROCK or is that ROK (1st SIG, Hooah?!!!)  I've been 'recklessly eyeballin' that slutty new Sumiko DAC ($199.00) with headphone amp ($199.00). The damn things stroking my wallet and saying 'Take me home, Daddy and let me be your nasty little FREAK'!!!  I keep chanting "I AM AN ADULT NOW. For $500.00 I can buy some sensible tyres for my car or give in for some mind blowing tunes buying these puppies. What to do? What to do?!!!


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## Happy Camper

armydicked said:


> ArmyDicked, YOU ROCK or is that ROK (1st SIG, Hooah?!!!)  I've been 'recklessly eyeballin' that slutty new Sumiko DAC ($199.00) with headphone amp ($199.00). The damn things stroking my wallet and saying 'Take me home, Daddy and let me be your nasty little FREAK'!!!  I keep chanting "I AM AN ADULT NOW. For $500.00 I can buy some sensible tyres for my car or give in for some mind blowing tunes buying these puppies. What to do? What to do?!!!


the easiest would be to get the phones, it will help to pass the time in rehab. from the wreck. Or do a few extra duty watches to pay for the nasty little freak because she will be owned.


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