# Tutorial : WASAPI support for KMPlayer, having a top-notch video/audio player



## Omega17TheTrue

*1/ Presentation
*

 Since we're using WASAPI, only windows vista is compatible although it should also work with windows seven but i really don't know if its the case.

 I'm going to show you how to configure *The KMPlayer* to use the WASAPI via reclock. It is very simple. Why The KMPlayer ? Because its a wonderful player, the best so far i have tested. It have many features and a total control of the video/audio that he play. It his a free player made by a south-korean engineer but since 2008 it with a "collaboration" with pandora TV.







Click here for a summarize of the features.

*Reclock* is obviously an re-clocker and more interesting, an audio renderer. It is also completely free.

 From their old site (now abandoned) :

  Quote:


 What is it ?

 The purpose of ReClock is to definitely get rid of jerky playback of AVI and MPEG material on a PC (or a HTPC driving a TV, a flat panel, or a video-projector). It's a DirectShow filter which is loaded in place of the default directsound audio renderer.
 It provides a new reference clock that is locked to the video card hardware clock, in order to ensure that frames are played at the exact speed of what is expected by the video card vertical sync.
 It also provides a frame rate adaptator for media files that do not match a multiple of the video card refresh rate (ex: playback of 23,976fps IVTC NTSC on a PAL TV).
 The combination of the two will give you the true experience of smooth playback with your PC.
 Finally it is an audio renderer with hardware or software rate adaptation in real-time, multi-channel audio, audio timestretching (pal speedup compensation) and dynamic range compression capabilities.
 For a full description of ReClock, please read carefully the README file in the distribution. There is also a little FAQ at the bottom of the page that answers common questions. 
 

*2/ Downloading
*

 First of all you obviously need to download the KMPlayer look on their forum for the last version to download.

 You also need to download the last version of Reclock, see also on their forum for the last version
*
 3/ The Setup
*

 You shouldn't have any problem installing them, its very easy, KMplayer use a wizard for the installation and with reclock its basicaly a copy of files.

 Now configure Reclock with the shortcut on the desktop. ("C:\Program Files\ReClock\Config.exe")

 Set the device you wish to use (sound card or DAC).
 Now set the audio interface and choose WASAPI like in the image, set other settings you wish to use or experiment.






 Now open the KMPlayer and right click on the player itself, and activate the advanced menu like in the picture then enter the preferences menu.






 Now go to the "audio processing" section and select "Reclock" as a audio renderer, you can use the config button next to it to further customize the renderer.






 Try to deactivate any audio plugin like the "automatic volume control" but WASAPI normally bypath all the audio features. But do as your heart tell you, don't forget that your brain is the only judge.

 Explore the other sections and sub-sections at your convenience to explore all the many wonderful features the player has to offer.

 Play some audio or video to test the player, don't forget that a bit exact player have absolutely no volume control (only active or mute, on or off) so try to move the volume control to see if it affect the volume (from both vista mixer and kmplayer).

 Some useful shortcuts :

 space : play/pause
 left arrow : 5 seconds backward
 right arrow : 5 seconds forward
 control + left arrow : 30 seconds backward
 control + right arrow : 30 seconds forward
 crtl + alt + A : Video Screenshot
 alt + X : show/hide subtitles
 f : next video frame
 shift + f : reverse video frame

 downside : Some audio format are not longer supported. But i think it can be fixed somehow.






 The volume bar not affect the sound, being 100%,54%,12% or mute its the same (only mute on the device cut the sound).






 Bit perfect output :







*4/ The more important : The audio quality
*

 Comparing to foobar2k with WASAPI plug-in the difference in sound quality is HUGE ! (relatively) You don't need to listen several time to hear a little difference its really strike at you !







 In WASAPI foobar, the sound is deformed by the volume,as a cheap pre-amp, a proof this is not a genuine bit exact playback, the sound have distortion, sound digital, being harsh and the instruments don't blend together in a natural way, to say the least.

 The first thing i notice when i launch a album in KMPlayer is the smoothness of the music, its much more closer to a music being played by instruments ! 
 The instruments now have a holographic sound of their own body, its so realist you can easily "touch" the instruments with your ears. The instruments have now a darker blackness between notes.
 The voice is less forward, less detach of the instruments but now blend with them naturally.
 The music in itself has more emotion and it is less prone to ear fatigue.
 The bass is also fuller and with more impact, that really amaze me !

 I didn't thought that this will make such a huge difference and i wasn't even thinking i will be able to even hear it !

 I was using kmplayer since long time but solely as a video player and foobar for audio, but now it will do both, at least on my vista setup.

 KMPlayer have outstanding video player feature like my favorite : it can keep the video frame to its original size on full-screen, so its does not deform the video.

 And SO many things its very long to tell all of them and many are still unknown to me. You can check this manual if you want more information.

 I'm now rediscovering again my computer audio collection. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_
 Tested on a audio-gd compass and AKG K271 via coaxial._


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## leeperry

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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2 things :

 -Reclock's prebuffer will "eat" the first half-second of each new song...quite a problem when songs start right away, and it can't be set lower than 25ms..so glitches will occur 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -foobar's volume attenuator is not supposed to be used actually...ideally you should use WASAPI/KS/ASIO, and then use the windows master volume control(which is ALWAYS hardware accelerated)

 but whatever rocks your "holographic sound of their own body", eh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

1/ Yes its a "little" issue, it was made for movies after all. 
 2/ Ideally, i should only use my amp potentiometer,like on a CD player, since anyway, volume control don't work on WASAPI.

 Sorry for the errors in English, i don't know if "we" can say that,kind of poetic.


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## sonci

Thank you for the tip.

 I use the KM player and its great, I`ll see if it can be bit perfect with Wasapi, 
 Will it use wasapi even for video files?


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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for the tip.

 I use the KM player and its great, I`ll see if it can be bit perfect with Wasapi, 
 Will it use wasapi even for video files?_

 

Of course it does, and that one of the reasons its my favorite player. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Try to see a video file with it, or even better, a movie !


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1/ Yes its a "little" issue, it was made for movies after all. 
 2/ Ideally, i should only use my amp potentiometer,like on a CD player, since anyway, volume control don't work on WASAPI.

 Sorry for the errors in English, i don't know if "we" can say that,kind of poetic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm french too, no worries 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 what you call a "small issue" is totally unbearable to me....and even adding +500ms delay in ffdshow doesn't help, it still glitches 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 at least foobar doesn't glitch up, and you can use whatever ASIO/WASAPI/KS...plus many soundcards are only bit-perfect via ASIO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and you can use VST plugins in foobar.

 well, set foobar volume attenuation to the max, set your windows master volume to 0dB...then use your external knob, I don't really understand what the problem is


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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm french too, no worries 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 what you call a "small issue" is totally unbearable to me....and even adding +500ms delay in ffdshow doesn't help, it still glitches 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 at least foobar doesn't glitch up, and you can use whatever ASIO/WASAPI/KS...plus many soundcards are only bit-perfect via ASIO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and you can use VST plugins in foobar.

 well, set foobar volume attenuation to the max, set your windows master volume to 0dB...then use your external knob, I don't really understand what the problem is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes i know you are, i see you in many forums. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes but bit perfect mean that the audio signal should not be modified by anything, and i d'ont see why i should set the volume to the max, because it should NOT change the volume at all ! Only on or off. Like i said.

 On the player the volume being 100%,20% or mute, the sound is the same.

 I don't know what VST plugin is but it should also deteriorate the data.

 kernel streaming no longer work on xp, at least with the service packs that mess it up, what why i ended up using vista.

 You maybe don't have vista so maybe you cant test it, just compare if you can. The KMPlayer also work with ASIO4All, and many other renderer since a player is just a nutshell.

 I using the SPDIF output of my mother board.


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## leeperry

KS works just fine whatever in XP or Vista, if it doesn't work that's because of your windows audio drivers not supporting it..

 KMPlayer doesn't work w/ ASIO4ALL, as it cannot output to ASIO.

 I talked about setting your windows *MASTER* volume to 0dB, indeed in KS/WASAPI/ASIO the "wave" volume control is bypassed.


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## thebathingape

I tried it and it works pretty well. Better than foobar with wasapi when it comes to soundquality imo (foobar has much better user interface of course).

 Foobar for some reason sounds abit grainy and digital to me (this is when using digital out to dac with wasapi). I get a kind of fatigue listening to it (wasapi-digital out-dac). I was a 100% foobar user before, but always felt there was a certain musicality missing.

 So around 2 months ago i tried the program i have been badmouthing for many years, Winamp with otachan asio. For some reason it sounds great, much better than foobar. I dont know if that is because of a difference in e.g. flac decoders between music players.

 Sorry wont derail anymore.
 I will test the kmplayer setup further and get some more impressions.


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## shrisha

Not working here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 May be because of Windows 7 64-bit.


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## RedSky0

I've been doing the same thing with Kernel Streaming in XP, works great.


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## recca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not working here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 May be because of Windows 7 64-bit._

 

I just set it up on my Win7 64bit box. Works fine. Don't have time to do an extensive test yet just yet but initial results are positive.


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## shrisha

Sheesh! What's wrong than?


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## Omega17TheTrue

I'm glad others get positive results too.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sheesh! What's wrong than?_

 

I don't know what exactly are the problem ?

 Impossible to install, don't launch, no sounds ... etc ?

 By the way its seem that in video mode the sound isn't bit perfect anymore (at least its do not appear on the reclock control panel), but the volume control and audio modifiers still don't work which mean its less interfere in the audio than other players.


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## RedSky0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not working here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 May be because of Windows 7 64-bit._

 

Try setting sound buffer size to 50.

 Anyway, I just set it up in x64 Windows 7. Annoyingly, formats that worked fine in XP through KS are now not supported with Wasapi. Is there any way around this, or to somehow use KS?


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## leeperry

you can use some older Reclock build that still support KS..the newest ones ditched KS support for WASAPI exclusive only.

 you might have to play around w/ the bit depth in Reclock...as WASAPI can be picky, I think it only support 32bit on some audio cards? there won't be any conversion, it'll be padded.


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## koven

is this better than foobar w/ ASIO? or just an alternative


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is this better than foobar w/ ASIO? or just an alternative_

 

it makes glitches at beginning of each song(due to Reclock's internal prebuffer), if you're reminiscent of the vynil sound...then it's great!


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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is this better than foobar w/ ASIO? or just an alternative_

 

Do a comparison and hear for yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it makes glitches at beginning of each song(due to Reclock's internal prebuffer), if you're reminiscent of the vynil sound...then it's great! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What do you mean ? You find the sound more natural, closer to a vinyl ?


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## leeperry

I was simply being sarcastic, as I can't stand the glitches at the beginning of each song


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## RedSky0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you can use some older Reclock build that still support KS..the newest ones ditched KS support for WASAPI exclusive only.

 you might have to play around w/ the bit depth in Reclock...as WASAPI can be picky, I think it only support 32bit on some audio cards? there won't be any conversion, it'll be padded._

 

Well I've got ReClock 1.6 with KS support which works fine in XP but switching it on in W7 x64 gives me no sound.

 Anyway, this and the fact that W7 refuses to allow two applications to use audio at once (say Foobar2000 and KMPlayer or Foobar2000 and a flash video) is reason enough for me to stick with XP since W7 has no real benefits anyway.


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## leeperry

you don't have to go as far back as 1.6, as I wouldn't expect such an old build to work reliably on W7...look into the log at what version number WASAPI got introduced, somewhere around 1.8.30 or so

 does KS work in foobar/winamp? because KS is obsolete on Vista/W7, WASAPI takes over...many drivers engineers don't bother coding a DirectKS miniport in the drivers anymore, WaveRT is prefered.

 W7 has many advantages for A/V applications over XP, like HPET support(XP wasn't meant for realtime applications) so your video playback timings will be far more accurate....glitch resiliance, etc etc

 I didn't like Vista, hopefully I'll like W7...if I can remove all the junk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* again, try 32bit in Reclock...many KS/WASAPI implementations only work w/ this.


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## donunus

i cant live with no vst though. I still use the same plugin and settings leeperry


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## leeperry

hehe, I do too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and you can use VST in KMPlayer, through ffdshow....too bad it only works in 16int, though.


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## SYSTEM ALCHEMiST

This is simply awesome, I wasn't expect such a noticeable difference actually, and I was pleasantly surprised, thanks.

 A few problems:
 1. I noticed in some audio files with really low bass, the bass seems to disappear at some point, I don't know how to describe this, but I compared the same file side by side with a winamp, winamp doesn't suffer from this problem.

 2. When playing a video, the music will fast forward a little bit every few seconds, the video remains a constant flow though.

 How do I solve these problems? BTW, I'm running a Q9550 and 4G of memory, the CPU load wasn't heavy at the time of playback either.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i cant live with no vst though. I still use the same plugin and settings leeperry_

 

You can link through the Winamp plugins options in KMplayer to a VST bridge for winamp. This will give you VST support.


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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SYSTEM ALCHEMiST* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is simply awesome, I wasn't expect such a noticeable difference actually, and I was pleasantly surprised, thanks.

 A few problems:
 1. I noticed in some audio files with really low bass, the bass seems to disappear at some point, I don't know how to describe this, but I compared the same file side by side with a winamp, winamp doesn't suffer from this problem.

 2. When playing a video, the music will fast forward a little bit every few seconds, the video remains a constant flow though.

 How do I solve these problems? BTW, I'm running a Q9550 and 4G of memory, the CPU load wasn't heavy at the time of playback either._

 

thanks you , sorry for the late respond i didn't see ...

 1, Have you deactivate all audio plugin ? KMP is so complicated and has so many features you can easily get lost, normally in bit perfect mode the plugin sound cant affect the sound however i found out that the sound bandpass can still be controlled by the player, try to set the sound output to "original" no "stereo 2.0" or else because the player still have features that can affect the sound. I will make a picture tutorial.

 2. That must be reclocker fault because he can readjust the sound to match the video resulting in sometime a slower or faster sound -also when using PAL slowdown mode you can get a slower sound- but you can disabled it, hit the box "slave reference to audio" in reclock properties but do it when the player is no playing -not even running is better-.






 I haven't tested WASAPI on winamp yet i will try, winamp is also a excellent player for web radios.

 Also : be sure to have the last reclock version here.


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## brn80

Thanks for the great write-up. Going to try this to see how it is. I've tried a lot of different players for music, but I keep coming back to Foobar because of speed+simplicity+some modifications. J river media center came close to replacing it, but it had some bugs of it's own. I wish foobar had a one-click dynamic random playlist creator. But anyways, I switched to Kmplayer after being a die-hard Media player classic user for a long time. Definitely a great player, let's see audio fares on it, never thought of using it for that.


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## SYSTEM ALCHEMiST

Thanks, I'll test it out tonight after work. 

 Now since this WASAPI plug-in sounds so much better than before, I'm start wondering if my Tianyun Zero DAC purchase is worth it or not, hope I can get an even bigger wow with my DAC + WASAPI.

 By the way, it doesn't seem like a lot of people have given this plug-in a try, I'm kind of surprised, maybe a full walkthrough with pics will get this more attention it deserved.


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## EugeneK

I still prefer foobar2k. Foobar's audio library much more user friendly for music.

 KMplayer is a nice video player though, I find that I'm using this for videos more often than Media player classic.


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## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparing to foobar2k with WASAPI plug-in the difference in sound quality is HUGE ! (relatively)_

 

Which means very little to (most probably) none, or in other words: your credibility dwindled abruptly when I read that.


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## quanghuy147

Thank you for your tutorial , I tried as you've instructed. I am using Windows 7, however,when I open a song, I can see that it is playing but there is no sound. What can be the problems? (I am using wasapi well with Foobar , but I only get 44.1 KHz, and I still can control the volume on Foobar, so it is not bit perfect? 

 How can I get bit perfect?


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## btbluesky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which means very little to (most probably) none, or in other words: your credibility dwindled abruptly when I read that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not even a valid logic. You like foobar, but haven't tried setting up the poster's approach and denounce it as no improvement.

 And quanghuy147, I know EXACTLY what you mean, I asked the same question....why the heck the volume still work.

 So people....STOP SAYING FOOBAR TO BE THE BIT PERFECT HOLY GRAIL, ITS NOT!

 Several months ago, after I did a new install of xp (I'm a programmer by trade, refresh is a quarterly business), installed asio4all, I got (foobar+foobar_native_asio_plugin) against (Jriver+jriver_native_asio_plugin) against (winamp+otachan_asio.dll) against Media monkey.

 Jriver came out ahead on my listerning test, but that's not the point.

 I could never be able to disable the volume on foobar,someone on the forum said setting volume control 0db or something like that, which didn't work for me. 

 Now even if there are new builds w/ that option working, I'm still curious, why would an "audiophile" software player doesn't have an option to "bypass everything" per se. When u have a volume/preamp layer in the code, it's there then, even if u set it 0db, or just leave it 100%.

 I completely agree w/ poster that the preamp part of the foobar deform the sound, and it should've had the option to disable it.

 That's like having a cheap radio shack digital volume control sitting in front of your DAC, before going to amplification.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish I can love it, but it's just wrong to me at their current implementation, unless someone can show me a completely no preamp fucntion of foobar build.

 I use Ubuntu Karmic at home. After I uninstall pulseaudio, defeat the Dmix, all sound go straight into alsa mixer...which is the layer as close to the hardware as you can get. THEN, using "Audacious", the modern linux winamp clone, my favorite option - "*Bypass all of signal processing if possible*", w/ a setting of alsa output plugin - hw:0,0 . Now thats a freakin straight path!

 BTW, just upgraded to windows 7 64bits (work comp), will try the wasapi because its there already. If not work, asio4all team is working hard to fix bugs. jriver will work too w/ it in 64 env, and guess what happen if the asio plugin is active in jriver.......volume doesn't work!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...sorry for the long post...


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## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not even a valid logic._

 

btbluesky, your post has nothing to do with this kmplayer discussion.

 Maybe you should try to open a new thread (preferably on hydrogenaudio) about your problems.

 I don't know what you're talking about, maybe you don't even know yourself.


 .. and I'm also software developer, so what?

 PS: new sig


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## btbluesky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_btbluesky, your post has nothing to do with this kmplayer discussion.

 Maybe you should try to open a new thread (preferably on hydrogenaudio) about your problems.

 I don't know what you're talking about, maybe you don't even know yourself.


 .. and I'm also software developer, so what?

 PS: new sig 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Um....and the point in your post is what? I dun know myself?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well... thats wut all my ex said. (you not chick right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 My post have 2 points: 1. your 1 st is not even logical regarding kmplayer vs foobar. 2. And the poor guy can't get foobar+wasapi working right on top of the volume issue. I'm simply telling the guy to try something else beside foobar based on my real exp. 

 Now if u have a point regarding kmplayer, say it...and stop acting like a chick.


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## lh0628

I wonder how this compare to J.River.


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## sonci

OK, question to KMplayer experts
 How to send aac 5.1 to external receiver,
 There's an option on KMPlayer to decode on the fly aac5.1 to ac3, so the receiver can read,(the KM is maybe the only windows player capable), but when I use this there's like degrading the SQ, comparing to sending raw ac3 to receiver,
 Is there any other way?, I dont see yet any receiver capable of aac 5.1, though this format is very good,
 Does it work with Wasapi too?


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## donunus

I noticed that aac whether nero or apple or apple lossless files dont sound very good with this player using the settings on the first page. Mp3 comes much closer to the original flac played with it. Whats wrong here, its like any m4a files sound dull and lack dynamics


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## donunus

I figured something out... Its only itunes aac and alac that have a rolled off dull sound with kmplayer. Nero aac is fine


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## leeperry

the audio part of KMP is mostly an old hacked version of ffdshow, and it's strange noone complains about the 200ms glitch at the beginning of each song due to Reclock...I really cannot stand it, it blanks the first 200ms(default is 500ms) and makes a loud glitch.

 I've asked James on many occasions if he could allow an audio-only Reclock w/o buffering, but he never considered it...to him Reclock is video-only, end of story.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_STOP SAYING FOOBAR TO BE THE BIT PERFECT HOLY GRAIL, ITS NOT!_

 

the 64bit volume attenuator in foobar is not windows-based, if you leave it at 0dB...you do get bit-perfect through KS/ASIO/WASAPI exclusive.


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## donunus

If you dont use any plugins, I somehow find itunes/wasapi better sounding than foobar


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## btbluesky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the 64bit volume attenuator in foobar is not windows-based, if you leave it at 0dB...you do get bit-perfect through KS/ASIO/WASAPI exclusive._

 

Do you have any proof about that? Has foobar team put down their foot in some sort of writing that thats what happen?

 BTW, I never said anything about the vol being "windows-based". Even if its their own mixer/preamp layer code, its function is changing the volume, and it WILL change the bits if it is enabled.

 Not trying to argue, just want to have some assurance. Otherwise I'll be using something else that has NO volume-adjust/preamp function, thats all.

 BTW, great post. Got it working great in Win 7 x64->paradisea. VERY SWEET SOUNDING....like the part in reclock where it says "WASAPI excl. (bit exact)". This'll be my default setup at work from now on.


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## donunus

Whether or not were getting paranoid about non bitperfect volume controls, I still notice foobar sounding more laid back(and sloppier in the bass) than kmplayer when playing flacs or mp3s. Itunes is closer sounding to kmplayer with mp3s. AAC is better overall with itunes than kmplayer because some aacs dont sound good with KMP.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have any proof about that? Has foobar team put down their foot in some sort of writing that thats what happen?_

 

I do know ppl who have checked if foobar/KS on XP was bit-perfect..and it was.

 Actually, anyone w/ a S/PDIF amp can check it w/ a DTS-CD/HDCD/etc..

 You still can go to the foobar forum and ask them? Beware, they have short temper over there...your thread can be killed/you banned w/o further warning.


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## donunus

does kernel streaming work with vista or windows 7?


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## The-One

Ok, installed and set up.

 What am I supposed to hear out for?

 Hmm, I think the soundstage might have changed slightly? Not sure atm.


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## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The-One* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, installed and set up.

 What am I supposed to hear out for?

 Hmm, I think the soundstage might have changed slightly? Not sure atm._

 

Listen for the music you feed the player with, if you can hear something you have an audio player playing audio files and that's about it.

 The claim about improved sound quality is mere nonsense. (2nd time I'm saying this)
 Let this thread die, it's better for everyone.


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## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Listen for the music you feed the player with, if you can hear something you have an audio player playing audio files and that's about it.

 The claim about improved sound quality is mere nonsense. (2nd time I'm saying this)
 Let this thread die, it's better for everyone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That is nonsense is people claiming it make no difference without even listening.

 But you are right its not improve the sound its just less degrade it.

 There is a difference but since i use a good quality S/PDIF the differences are smaller. (the cable did a great improvement in sound,especially in bass)

 I found the sound smoother and with a wider soundstage using KMPlayer with reclocker, Foobar sound more upfront and aggressive but please note that i don't really make a real comparison i only did it with few songs and btw i almost don't use headphones anymore now (i care for my hearing), though i plan on only using them for movies.

 I agree that KMPlayer is not convenient for listening music and the buffer eat the first 200ms which is a big annoyance, but for movies i don't think any players can do better than KMP.

 For music i prefer CD players or vinyl, much more easy to use and no lousy digital connections but this is another subject. 

 For bit perfect on video you need to have the refresh rate of your monitor to match one of the video i will explain it on the tutorial with pictures.

 Hear by yourself.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is nonsense is people claiming it make no difference without even listening.
 [..]
 KMPlayer is not convenient for listening music and the buffer eat the first 200ms which is a big annoyance, but for movies i don't think any players can do better than KMP.
 [..]
 For bit perfect on video you need to have the refresh rate of your monitor to match one of the video i will explain it on the tutorial with pictures._

 

don't feed trolls my friend, they aren't worth it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yes, KMP is by far the best media player around...and watching movies w/o Reclock(through a bit-perfect audio renderer) is completely pointless indeed, 24/48.000Hz Reclock in KS/WASAPI = goodness


----------



## ROBSCIX

KMplayer works fine for me without reclock.


----------



## donunus

You guys have to try xmplay with wasapi exclusive mode. turn off all filters, eq and all effects and youve got one heck of a light and great sounding player. Its my favorite right now after obsesivelly listening to sonic differences


----------



## sonci

Omega,
 what audio card do you use,
 I tried your tutorial with windows 7, and theres no sound with creative xfi, audio creation mode, I hear the click of changing sample rate from the speakers, then no sound at all, the same goes for flac, mp3 etc,
 While for multichannel audio, I get the message format not supported,
 does xfi support Wasapi?


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_don't feed trolls my friend, they aren't worth it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I concur.


----------



## Kpalsm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RedSky0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, this and the fact that W7 refuses to allow two applications to use audio at once (say Foobar2000 and KMPlayer or Foobar2000 and a flash video) is reason enough for me to stick with XP since W7 has no real benefits anyway._

 

I've never had that problem, I can listen to music in Foobar and watch a YouTube video at the same time if I want to and I hear both. Also, there are a lot of benefits upgrading to W7 over XP, even from Vista. A good example is, I haven't had a single BSoD in W7, unlike Vista and XP on the same hardware, and this is using _beta versions_, which I've been using since I helped overload Microsoft's servers the day the beta went public. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unless you have older software that won't run on the newer OS there's not a lot of reason to keep using XP. Even then, W7 has XP Mode. Look it up along with other features of W7 if it interests you.


----------



## The-One

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys have to try xmplay with wasapi exclusive mode. turn off all filters, eq and all effects and youve got one heck of a light and great sounding player. Its my favorite right now after obsesivelly listening to sonic differences_

 

do you *really* have to turn all filters/effect etc off?

 Because I run a parametric eq plugin, which corrects for room acoustics on bass frequencies. That doesn't work anymore if the filter/eq option is switched off in KM Player. I know for a fact if that is turned off, the bass will be inaccurate. (I mainly use speakers and a subwoofer, only at nights do i plug in my iems)


----------



## donunus

well, in the first place. You cannot really compare different players side by side if you use any of their filters, plugins, effects etc... You are not just listening to the players sound on their own if you use any of those effects. Plugins, eq and other effects vary from player to player which will make all your players obviously different sounding. 

 I think the key point to this whole thread is that the kmplayer with reclock is supposedly a "lesser evil" than other players so far as sound degradation from the original data is concerned. Using extra effects makes the argument about which player sounds better a different topic altogether.

 Coming back to KMplayer being the best sounding player using reclock, I agree that for the majority of my files that it sounds better than itunes, media player and foobar except for some aac and apple lossless files that go down in level when played through the kmplayer (Is there some sort of replaygain type of problem here?). 

 But then I used xmplay with wasapi exclusive mode.... I'm not sure which player is really more accurate to the bits of the original file but I like the slightly more crispy edged sound of xmplay with all possible extra effects (auto amplification, interpolation, ramping, surround, eq, etc...) off. With the Neutron Skin, It looks simple and cool too


----------



## DeusEx

Anyone's KMP freeze in Win7 at times, when you load a video?


----------



## donunus

mine is fine with windows 7. It freezes when trying to play an audio cd though


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the key point to this whole thread is that the kmplayer with reclock is supposedly a "lesser evil" than other players so far as sound degradation from the original data is concerned._

 

Yeah that's the OP's claim, but how could this even remotely be true if other players also support bit-exact output, i.e. input equals output?


----------



## donunus

Thats what is really weird about the whole thing with computer audio. Bitperfect might only mean "trying to be" bitperfect because not all players sound the same. This might mean that they buffer the data in some way that all the bits can go through instead of skipping some when the hardware is not fast enough to deliver everything on time. Anything in the software that can cause any eq or effect already makes the music not bitperfect right? Then why do eqs still work with wasapi on? Its only kmplayer with reclock where effects dont work when reclock is on. Either way, just go with what makes you happy. Its probably better to think that its totally bitperfect and be happy than to be paranoid like me


----------



## leeperry

If you want bit-perfect in KMP, disable ALL the internal filters and set Reclock to KS or WASAPI...obviously, EQ or any post-filtering kills the bit-perfect stream. You still get bit-perfect output(=not resampled by windows), but not compared to the original file.

 BTW, James has been kind enough to add 176.4/192kHz oversampling in beta50...too awesome for movies! it used to resample 48kHz movies at 47952Hz(in 23.976fps@48Hz), SQ was pretty bad. OTOH, it only works for movies I think..not audio files.

 I also asked him if he could make an audio-only Reclock alias bypassing the mandatory pre-buffer...but he said that he doesn't have much time to work on Reclock. If you really wanna see it happening, try to +1 me in the official Reclock thread.


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what is really weird about the whole thing with computer audio. Bitperfect might only mean "trying to be" bitperfect because not all players sound the same. This might mean that they buffer the data in some way that all the bits can go through instead of skipping some when the hardware is not fast enough to deliver everything on time._

 

If the hardware doesn't support a certain format (it's not "fast enough") and if you're using e.g. ASIO, it won't even start playing.
 You describe buffering as if it's a bad thing, but without it you'd have a lot of terrible glitches.

 And concerning the player's way of "pushing the data into the sound card": if it uses e.g. ASIO or WASAPI there's only _one _way to do that, since those are well-defined APIs (application programming interfaces). And the implementations of those APIs actually buffer the data, regardless of the player.

  Quote:


 Anything in the software that can cause any eq or effect already makes the music not bitperfect right? 
 

Not really, just don't use the feature or disable it if possible.

  Quote:


 Then why do eqs still work with wasapi on? 
 

Because wasapi is just a "way of talking to the soundcard".
 But it doesn't tell an audio player that it musn't process the data. The player can alter the data before sending in to the soundcard...

  Quote:


 Its only kmplayer with reclock where effects dont work when reclock is on. 
 

That's more like a limitation than a feature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


 Either way, just go with what makes you happy. Its probably better to think that its totally bitperfect and be happy than to be paranoid like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 









 What's even better: _know _that it is.


----------



## donunus

hehehe Im happy with xmplay for music, kmplayer for movies, itunes for ipod syncing. I'm done with this thread. Because of it Ive found players that made me happy but I have to get out because it makes me paranoid when I'm always AB testing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh about the part where you replied disabling the eq effect if possible, I was referring to maybe if the player has some sort of eq type effect on its own when even all the features/dsp/eqs are off. This is the only explanation I could think of for the difference in sound between foobar and kmplayer for example even when both are using wasapi. Ive ruled out placebo by letting a friend hear the difference and letting him explain them to me which matched what I heard also.


----------



## Omega17TheTrue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Omega,
 what audio card do you use,
 I tried your tutorial with windows 7, and theres no sound with creative xfi, audio creation mode, I hear the click of changing sample rate from the speakers, then no sound at all, the same goes for flac, mp3 etc,
 While for multichannel audio, I get the message format not supported,
 does xfi support Wasapi?_

 

I use the S/PDIF digital out of my motherboard (realtek HD audio) then the signal goes to the DAC section of the compass.

 I don't know about windows 7 but when i possessed my "xfi fatal1ty" wasapi was working on vista.


----------



## xnor

donunus, why waste time doing AB tests if you can simply record the output and compare it.


----------



## donunus

By recording you mean the waveform?


----------



## xnor

Yes, the stuff coming out of your DAC.


----------



## donunus

How do I do that?


----------



## xnor

With a loopback cable http://www.passmark.com/images/audio-loopback-cable.jpg

 But we're getting very off-topic here.


----------



## donunus

ahhh hehehe It wont work with my current setup because what im listening to uses a separate dac and the pcs soundcard is probably not able to record when an external dac is also being used in exclusive mode


----------



## leeperry

gapless is not possible over DS apparently? I don't understand what the point is to use Reclock for music tbh


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use the S/PDIF digital out of my motherboard (realtek HD audio) then the signal goes to the DAC section of the compass.

 I don't know about windows 7 but when i possessed my "xfi fatal1ty" wasapi was working on vista._

 

OK, I got audio, when selecting Xfi speakers out on Reclock set up,
*THE THING IS that its not bit perfect*, 
 the sample rate does not change from 44.1 to 48 according to different files,
 it will play with the sample rate configured on xfi audio creation mode(bit matched playback),

 different story when selecting spidf out on Reclock set up, this way I hear the sample rate changing (a click in speakers, cause with xfi driver for 7, you cannot see the sample rate in ACMode), but there's no sound,
 Its the same story with wasapi and foobar in vista, just creative doesn't support wasapi
 or, probably you don't have bit matched playback either, the only way to check is to connect an external receiver to spidf out when KM is playing and see if the sample rate changes automatically, like happens for ASIO and KS,

 can smb post a Reclock version with KS or ASIO out plugin?


----------



## leeperry

ASIO will never be supported in Reclock, and KS cannot be selected on Vista/7...only WASAPI on these OS.


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ASIO will never be supported in Reclock, and KS cannot be selected on Vista/7...only WASAPI on these OS._

 

If wasapi do what KS or ASIO do, I dont understand why its not bit perfect..


----------



## leeperry

that's because the X-Fi drivers are only bit-matched over ASIO AFAIK...my VIA drivers are bit-matched over KS and DS, much more important to me considering Reclock doesn't do ASIO...but don't complain, the CMI8788 based soundcards(Asus/HT.Omega/Razer/etc..) are not automatically bit-matched AT ALL...they have a fixed sample rate in the drivers = end of story.


----------



## The-One

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what is really weird about the whole thing with computer audio. Bitperfect might only mean "trying to be" bitperfect because not all players sound the same. This might mean that they buffer the data in some way that all the bits can go through instead of skipping some when the hardware is not fast enough to deliver everything on time. Anything in the software that can cause any eq or effect already makes the music not bitperfect right? Then why do eqs still work with wasapi on? Its only kmplayer with reclock where effects dont work when reclock is on. Either way, just go with what makes you happy. Its probably better to think that its totally bitperfect and be happy than to be paranoid like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

something I've noticed when I have reclock on. the volume control on my kmplayer software no longer works, so i have to adjust volume from usb dac. however my parametric eq plugin still works.

 I thought something was bit perfect when the software can't change the volume? so is my music still "bit-perfect" despite being run through a parametric eq?

 PS: Something else, having reclock on makes youtube videos not work in firefox. I have to switch reclock off in KMPlayer then restart Firefox to make youtube videos have sound.. anyone else have this problem?


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ but don't complain, the CMI8788 based soundcards(Asus/HT.Omega/Razer/etc..) are not automatically bit-matched AT ALL...they have a fixed sample rate in the drivers = end of story._

 

This sound to me, that maybe they aren't bit perfect at all..
 The Emu1212M is not automatically bit matched either, but it doesn't resample at all,
 if you play a 96khz file with PatchMix DSP(Emu set up console) locked at 44.1, then there'll a message like "please change patchmix profile", 
 so the card is resampleless for sure..
 Since the cards you mention do some resampling, probably they do all the time, 
 even if you match the sample rate, so even if you play 44.1 with console locked to 44.1, the audio will pass through the same filters resampled from 44.1 to 44.1, losing the _bit perfect paradise_


----------



## leeperry

considering that they resample even KS and ASIO(and WASAPI too?), and that whatever you do the graphic EQ in the drivers still works....only a test w/ a DTS-CD/HDCD in S/PDIF would give a clear status of their bit-perfect ability, but yes I have my doubts too ^^

 yes, my VIA drivers are the same...if I play a 44.1kHz file in DS, then try to open a 96kHz in KS...I get an error msg "cannot set hardware samplerate", the Asus card will resample the two streams to the rate set in the drivers...it's a resampling/jitter feast tonight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think the Emu's also have bitmatched ASIO, though.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree that [..] the buffer eat the first 200ms which is a big annoyance_

 

problem solved: SlySoft Forum - View Single Post - ReClock 1.8.5.5

 it also does 96/192kHz upsampling if that's something you fancy.

 still no way to do gapless over Directshow I guess? KMP does seamless playback, but not for audio...so close!


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of steps to get that working.

 I just use foobar2000 +WASAPI for the music, and The KMPlayer for movies, simple enough!


----------



## donunus

wheres the download link to 1.8.5.5


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, that's a hell of a lot of steps to get that working.

 I just use foobar2000 +WASAPI for the music, and The KMPlayer for movies, simple enough!_

 

try xmplay guys. I dont know if its synergy or if it is more honest to the source or what but it gets rid of some senn veil and flabby bass compared to foobar even when both using asio. I dont get it!, the difference in sound between asio, wasapi, and directsound seem much smaller than the difference between the actual audio player software. Sometimes I feel ASIO has more bass than wasapi but sometimes I feel its placebo. The player SQ differences are bigger though. I would say that the difference in sound between foobar and xmplay for instance is bigger than even foobar with no effects applied vs foobar using my custom vst setting


----------



## leeperry

well, I'm starting to think that sometimes when I got bored of some op-amps I was rolling, it was mostly the foobar KS pattern boring me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Reclock in KS w/ 192kHz upsampling sounds awesome, and even at 44.1/untouched it sounds much clearer than foobar...there I said it(using madflac and MPC) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the MPC mp3 decoder works in 32float, and sounds really good...this I already noticed ages ago.

 and Reclock has a built-in mechanism to lower the volume(in 32float) to avoid clipping when upsampling.


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, I'm starting to think that sometimes when I got bored of some op-amps I was rolling, it was mostly the foobar KS pattern boring me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Reclock in KS w/ 192kHz upsampling sounds awesome, and even at 44.1/untouched it sounds much clearer than foobar...there I said it(using madflac and MPC) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the MPC mp3 decoder works in 32float, and sounds really good...this I already noticed ages ago.

 and Reclock has a built-in mechanism to lower the volume(in 32float) to avoid clipping when upsampling._


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Omega17TheTrue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm now rediscovering again my computer audio collection. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

SlySoft Forum - View Single Post - ReClock 1.8.5.5
  Quote:


 I'm using a real-time priority thread to process a separate small WASAPI ring buffer, this implementation might just be the right thing to do. Dunno.


----------



## donunus

after A while i'm feeling reclock/kmplayer is a little uncontrolled sounding. I would rather listen to J river media player and xmplay then itunes(tie with kmplayer/reclock depending on songs synergy with my cans) then foobar last in sound quality


----------



## leeperry

well, disable the KMP audio transform filter if it's enabled. anyway, I'm not going back to foobar!


----------



## donunus

Where is the kmp audio transform at? Yah Im not going back to foobar either unless the sound gets better in the next versions.


----------



## donunus

Found it. Its disabled on mine already


----------



## leeperry

and do you use madflac? I personally convert to 32float in ffdshow then upsample to 192kHz in Reclock(in excellent mode), SQ is amazing


----------



## donunus

dont know what madflac is


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dont know what madflac is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

the flac decoder in the form of a direct show (= windows multimedia framework) filter

 ... every software developer's nightmare


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dont know what madflac is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

KMP by default uses a funky FLAC decoding library(called BASS)...you could just delete all the DLL in the KMP folder and only keep "KIconLib.dll" and "PProcDLL.DLL", then go to its preferences, disable the built-in filters, and install madflac(Directshow FLAC decoder that does it all! 7.1/24bit/192kHz...you name it, it does it)..if you plan on trying upsampling, you can convert to 32float in ffdshow as this is what Reclock will convert to otherwise anyway(and staying 32float from start to end is better for lossy audio).
 that's my setup(and you can use VST plugins in ffdshow if you like): 



 all these are freeware btw....the only thing that's missing is gapless, but I'm discussing w/ Casimir666(MPC-HC main coder) to extend seamless playback to FLAC/APE(it currently works for BD .m2ts files)

 about upsampling sounding better, this guy has a lot to say about it(as long as you're using a "Sinc Interpolation" algorithm, like in Reclock..which is using the very same "Secret Rabbit Code" he's talking about): http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v0...rts%20v0.3.pdf





 strangely, the best external DAC's are those that reclock at 24/192(to kill jitter and increase filtering accuracy): http://www.camerahobby.com/Misc_DAC1.htm

 anyway, what matters is that I like this setup very much, skeptics can just A/B against foobar


----------



## donunus

You should add on a tutorial here to set it up like youre doing


----------



## xnor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_about upsampling sounding better, this guy has a lot to say about it(as long as you're using a "Sinc Interpolation" algorithm, like in Reclock..which is using the very same "Secret Rabbit Code" he's talking about): http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v0...rts%20v0.3.pdf





 strangely, the best external DAC's are those that reclock at 24/192(to kill jitter and increase filtering accuracy): CameraHobby - Benchmark DAC-1 Review

 anyway, what matters is that I like this setup very much, skeptics can just A/B against foobar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 oh really? that's what you said some time ago, about that guy's player:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is one of the most famous "better-than-bitperfect" audio players, these guys sound like they believe JC will come back anytime soon.

 foobar in KS/ASIO/WASAPI = bit-perfect...anything on top of that is ludicrous._

 

and also talked about his "extreme methods", and this:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_when you start comparing bit-perfect audio renderers, something REALLY isn't right IMHO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

... /wallbash


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should add on a tutorial here to set it up like youre doing_

 

setting it up is half the fun, and the upsampling frequency/bitdepth is very much hardware dependent..my setup sounds better in 32bit/192kHz...it could be 24/96 on other systems, as my AK4396 DAC is known to do 128X oversampling up to 216kHz, the PCM1792A found in the Asus ST/STX cannot do more than 64X over 96kHz.

 and one MAJOR added value of ffdshow over foobar is that you can set up automatic profiles for MP3/FLAC/stereo/5.1 w/ different settings, foobar *doesn't* allow automatic profiles...they expect you to change them by hand, how dumb is this...I asked for it as a feature request ages ago on their moronic forum, but they declined it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and well, you can do everything you could possibly think of...like custom mixing matrixes for 5.1>stereo downmix, VST/DX/winamp plugins, EQ, FIR filter, convolver, noise reduction, reverb, and all kind of filtering...ffdshow is really killer!


----------



## donunus

cmon, post a basic tutorial so that we know where to start with what you're talking about. I'll experiment starting from there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All the stuff you are talking about is foreign to me right now as I'm sure it is to many of the readers so a basic starting point would be great!


----------



## leeperry

hehe, you'll regret getting into this because ffdshow and Reclock are *highly* addictive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, install madflac, install ffdshow from here: ffdshow tryouts project (x86/x64) - XvidVideo.RU

 install Reclock beta 55 as well and set it like this: 



 if your audio card doesn't allow 192kHz or 32bit, lower them of course.

 kill all the DLL in the KMP folder as mentioned above, set Reclock as the default audio renderer in KMP and disable the "audio transform filter"...you should only have madflac and Reclock in the active filters list when playing a FLAC file.
 if you wanna use ffdshow on top, in its config you need to do this : 



 also disable FLAC above in that list, so madflac takes over...and at the bottom of the ffdshow audio config, in the "output section" uncheck everything except "32 bit floating point".

 all I can say is that I've never heard my Bjork CD's from some close...granted I've pimped my soundcard w/ burson's, but still foobar had something boring and colored to it..and the stereo imaging is just BETTER like this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and that's only for audio, the real point of using Reclock is getting butter smooth movies in 24/48Hz.


----------



## donunus

Thanks... I'll stay away from this until after the vacation. You know my paranoia when it comes to these things... if you remember our crossfeed chat hehehe

 --------BOOKMARKED--------------


----------



## donunus

Leeperry, 

 As for now can you tell me what you think of xmplay using asio and J river media center using asio/wasapi compared to your hardcore discovery above? They sound better to me with my setup than the kmplayer using the settings given on the first page of this thread


----------



## leeperry

I'm on XP and my soundcard only does DS/MME and KS...xmplay doesn't allow custom downmix matrixes so it's a deal breaker for me. foobar does, but I had to annoy its plugin coder to get a version that leaves stereo untouched(considering you cannot set automatic profiles), heh foobar is such a pain.

 I've been using Reclock since forever for movies on my DLP projector...what is killer is that James finally agreed to include oversampling and allow an audio-only mode w/o buffering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 MPC also has a very good sounding MP3 decoder that you can force to decode in 32float(you can also use it in KMP if you like):


----------



## leeperry

anyway, there's also the "full file buffering up to" in the advanced foobar option...there you can set a high value so foobar will cache the file in RAM(less jitter than from a HDD? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), that's the tactic cMP and Amarra use anyway.

 to be perfectly honest, I think I got bored of the 32/192 upsampled Reclock sound...it's brighter and maybe more accurate to the "analog" recording(as the PDF quoted above says), I'm not sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 whatever op-amp rolling or funky PC settings, I always get bored of them after a while...and it seems that some of these high end player(XXHighEnd?) only allows 32bit output, but that's really not a good choice IMO...because the audio drivers will need to convert to 24bit afterwards...and each integer>integer conversion is very lossy. It's clearly audible that when I output 32bit, sound is brighter than at 16/24bit....it's nice for a while to get that sparkling uppper spectrum, but it gets odd after a while.

 ah well, I really don't wanna live w/o gapless anyway(gee, we're not in the 80's anymore), I'll run foobar/KS(bit-perfect 24bit) w/ full file buffering in foobar for a while and see what happens 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* humm 24/192 sounds really awesome in movies w/ Reclock, 32bit really makes no sense...

*PPS:* haha the SQ difference between Reclock and foobar is really shocking...even w/ both 16/44.1 bit-perfect


----------



## donunus

now I like foobar more than itunes again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess it depends on my mood on which sound I prefer and I dont know which is more accurate to the source but what I know that is consistent is that foobar is more laid back than itunes and has a softer midbass attack


----------



## leeperry

I've been brainwashed on french forums that foobar in KS was bit-perfect(double/triple checked by pro sound engineers)...so SQ would/should be identical in all the bit-perfect players! boy oh boy, I've compared foobar and Reclock in 100% bit-perfect 44.1/16 KS many times these past days...and they REALLY don't sound identical! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 foobar sounds mushy/agressive/bass-shy, this is really unbearable...Reclock has a much deeper bass/clearer trebles/cleaner SS, this cannot be my imagination as many other ppl hear different stuff too..and even the XXHighEnd coder measured foobar's jitter pattern.

 Sonic is selling Amarras for $1K, and all the ppl who hear it are simply BLOWN AWAY..they say it saved them from some major hardware upgrade, I would have no problem saying the same...my bottleneck clearly wasn't hardware based.


----------



## donunus

I believe you.. but sometimes you know some cans like the crappier sounding cd transport or in this case the crappier sounding media player of choice for better synergy


----------



## leeperry

try 24/192 KS and WASAPI in Reclock


----------



## Nick63

How are you getting KS to show as an output option in Reclock 55beta? Mine only shows Direct Sound, Wasapi, and Wavout. I am using Windows7 64bit. I set reclock to load for Media Monkey, JRiver, and Foobar, but none of them trigger the Recock app panel to show it's working. It always appeared when configured with Kmplayer.

 Nick


----------



## leeperry

I run XP SP3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 James advised to set "Config.exe" to XP compatibility to get KS on Vista/7...but WASAPI should be just as good -if not better-


----------



## [L]es

uh. how do i get gapless mp3 playback ? i've tried ffdshow and a few winamp input plugins for mp3 and still can't get gapless.


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## leeperry

AFAIK gapless on mp3 is not possible at all, due to format limitations...it might be possible w/ some versions of LAME, but I never got it working anyway.


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## leeperry

BTW, the latest version really KILLS for audio playback...James has been kind enough to add a lot of new features like :
 -16/24/24 padded to 32/32 bit output
 -very short gap for audio files(up to 50ms)
 -improved resampler settings(it used to be quite wonky, as it was using different coeffs for the -1/+1 polarities at the final float>integer conversion stage...this is now fixed and VERY audible, just A/B if you like)
 -better anti-clipping dynamic correction for loudness war material
 -a registry key to allow KS instead of WASAPI on Win7/Vista
 SQ is really killer


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## ElephantTLK

Edit: now its working...


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## TheDuke990

Hi, sorry but I need your help.
  Yesterday I tried KMPlayer and ReClock but it is not working. KMPlayer works fine (set output to SPDIF-Out (Creative)) but not together with ReClock (outout ReClock).
   
  This is my configuration of ReClock and KMPlayer.

   
  btw foobar and WASAPI works very well and so I hoped that KMPlayer with ReClock and WASAPI works fine as well.
  I also changed same settings in my Creative console (deactivating bit perfect output) but I can't hear music.


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## os!waru

TheDuke990:
 I have been curious how sounds ReClock and I had same problem - same settings as you post above and no sound at all.
  Try download new beta - 1.8.6.8, this helped me. (http://sandbox.slysoft.com/beta/SetupReClock1868.exe)
  Btw. i am running Win 7 x64 ...


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## JulioCat2

Activate Internal audio Renderer (Crossfade)


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## TheDuke990

@os!waru: thanks but I use the latest version 1.8.6.8 and I use Win7 64 Bit as well.
   
  @JulioCat2: after activating I can hear music. Thanks but that's not what I want. I want to use ReClock and not the internal sound renderer.


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## TheDuke990

Nobody with experiences with ReClock ?


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## leeperry

theduke990 said:


> Nobody with experiences with ReClock ?


 
   
  Does it work in DirectSound? Did you try all the sample rates in WASAPI? Do you run your X-Fi in "audio creation"/"bitmatched" modes?


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## TheDuke990

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Does it work in DirectSound? Did you try all the sample rates in WASAPI? Do you run your X-Fi in "audio creation"/"bitmatched" modes?


 

 Direct Sound doesn't work. Also wave output doesn't work.
  Sample rates: not all but the standard rates
  X-Fi runs in audio creation bitmatched modus
   
  It seems to be that I have a general problem with ReClock.


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## JulioCat2

The Duke:
   
  In Advance Settings try to uncheck ForceReclock to be loaded instead of default renders, works for me


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## TheDuke990

Quote: 





juliocat2 said:


> The Duke:
> 
> In Advance Settings try to uncheck ForceReclock to be loaded instead of default renders, works for me


 

 Sorry but I cannot find this settings. Where do I have to look exactly ? Thanks


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## JulioCat2

In Configure Reclock -> Advanced Settings uncheck ForceReclock to be loaded instead of default renders


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## TheDuke990

Okay ... I will try it in the next days. Sorry but the weather here in Germany is awesome and so I have to spend more time for my other hobby -> ride my motorcycle . Thank you !


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## TheDuke990

Quote: 





juliocat2 said:


> In Configure Reclock -> Advanced Settings uncheck ForceReclock to be loaded instead of default renders


 
   
  It is working but the renderer is not ReClock. KMP use his own one. That's not what I want .


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## elnero

Quote: 





juliocat2 said:


> The Duke:
> 
> In Advance Settings try to uncheck ForceReclock to be loaded instead of default renders, works for me


 

 OK, I tried playing around with KMPlayer and ReClock on my Windows 7 laptop but was unable to get any sound, I tried a bunch of different setting to no avail. I saw this post and tried it and I now get sound and the little clock icon in the task bar with ReClock properties, does this mean it's now working? With the plethora of settings in KMPlayer it's hard to tell what's going on and if I have everything turned off that should be turned off. Can ReClock be used with anything simpler?


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## os!waru

Quote: 





elnero said:


> ... Can ReClock be used with anything simpler?


 

 You can try it in Media Player Classic - Home Cinema, a tip for you Ctrl+7 show playlist.


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## AhhHoNG

oh dam wad abt windows xp


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## os!waru

Quote: 





elnero said:


> ... Can ReClock be used with anything simpler?


 

 You can try it in Media Player Classic - Home Cinema, a tip for you Ctrl+7 show playlist.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





donunus said:


> You guys have to try xmplay with wasapi exclusive mode. turn off all filters, eq and all effects and youve got one heck of a light and great sounding player. Its my favorite right now after obsesivelly listening to sonic differences


 


 Seems pretty cool based on a quick look and listen with a few tunes.  Will have to check it out further.


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## Kpalsm

Don't think my rig is resolving enough that I think about what player I use on my comp. Probably should worry about upgrading from computer speakers first


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## mine

reclock -wasapi exclusive works even fine in dvbviewer(dvbsat-s2) as audio renderer
  so you may listen to all the fine live concerts over sat bit exact with reclock as renderer.
  cambridge dac is connected over spdif coax.
  > symm. xlr with sommer cable to 2 nearfield Adam a7 x.
  very fine.
  greetings from Germany
  armin


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## leeperry

ahhhong said:


> oh dam wad abt windows xp


 

 Reclock does KS on XP, and anyway DS can be bit-perfect on XP if you leave all the sliders at 100%: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=kmixer+bit-perfect


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## seraphjei

I'll be damned, the sound quality APPEARS to be better than my foobar with ASIO setup. I'm somewhat skeptical, I'm not sure if this is psychological or if it's actually true, but hey, switching players every once in a while isn't too bad either. =D


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## btbluesky

foobar has WASAPI out with a plugin. Better compare them like that.
  I'm waiting on a new DAC coming in so I can do just that. My Havana is good, but 24/96 files should give a much obvious comparison.
  
  Quote: 





seraphjei said:


> I'll be damned, the sound quality APPEARS to be better than my foobar with ASIO setup. I'm somewhat skeptical, I'm not sure if this is psychological or if it's actually true, but hey, switching players every once in a while isn't too bad either. =D


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## leeperry

> Originally Posted by *seraphjei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> the sound quality APPEARS to be better than my foobar


 
  you are doomed


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## Edwood

Would this WASAPI for KMplayer work with 2 Channel audio streams (16/48 or 24/48) in Video Files, like 1080P BluRay MKV rips with FLAC track?
   
  -Ed


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## Edwood

Just tried it, it basically doesn't work.  I got it to work once, but it was glitching like crazy.  Too bad, seemed like a promising idea.
   
  Using KMPlayer 1435, ReClock 1.8.6.9, Win 7 x64, HeadAmp Pico DAC.
   
  -Ed


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## shimm

Increase sound pre-buffer Duration. Set sampling rate "same as input".


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## Edwood

Quote: 





shimm said:


> Increase sound pre-buffer Duration. Set sampling rate "same as input".


 

 Default is 500ms for pre-buffer, what should I set it to?  My CPU can handle a lot, it's an E8400 at 3.6GHz.  Sampling rate was already set to "same as input".
   
  -Ed


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## shimm

Try 1000 ms. It is not bitstream by any case? Use ReClock with PCM only.


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## leeperry

I run 75ms buffer in Reclock, I need it short because otherwise the volume attenuation is laggy as hell.
   
  I often watch MKV movies w/ 5.1 downmixed to stereo, I upsample to 96kHz because otherwise for 23.976fps@48/96Hz, the audio is actually downsampled at 47952Hz...not good! I prefer 95904Hz.


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## Edwood

Quote: 





shimm said:


> Try 1000 ms. It is not bitstream by any case? Use ReClock with PCM only.


 

 It's an MKV file with a 2 Channel 16/48 PCM FLAC audio stream.
   
  I tried 1000ms and it still didn't work.  Weird thing is that when I open the preferences and under "Audio Processing" click on "Config" by "ReClock Audio Renderer", it sometimes starts working.  But it often has glitchy sound, with a lot of skipping and weird artifacting when it first starts playing. 
   
  -Ed


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## shimm

Leeperry, you use tweaked XP and Edwood _win7_... Under XP ReClock works just fine for me with 100ms and 192kHz output SR.
I haven't find any benefit with R under win7 cause sound is bad no matter if i use WASAPI Excl. or DS. So i only switch to win7 for movies because of HD bitstream and pretty fast video rendering.


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## shimm

Quote: 





edwood said:


> It's an MKV file with a 2 Channel 16/48 PCM FLAC audio stream.
> 
> I tried 1000ms and it still didn't work.  Weird thing is that when I open the preferences and under "Audio Processing" click on "Config" by "ReClock Audio Renderer", it sometimes starts working.  But it often has glitchy sound, with a lot of skipping and weird artifacting when it first starts playing.
> 
> -Ed


 

 sorry, i got no idea whats wrong


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## leeperry

oh...well post a logfile on Reclock's forum, James might know.


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## MikoLayer

I stopped using KMP ever since I moved to PotPlayer (developed by the same lead programmer as KMP). The main advantage for me was proper EVR functionality, less clutter and resources used. If I get a chance, maybe I will check and see if we I could apply the same method described here to get WASAPI working on it.


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## Omega17TheTrue

PotPlayer ... interesing i will give a try.


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## leeperry

I've made a thread about PotPlayer: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148745
   
  and the recent builds of Reclock allow 53bit built-in volume attenuation...you can simply use your media player volume control(tested in KMP/PotP/MPC-HC), this is a higher resolution than anything Windows will ever be able to provide you w/. Digital volume attenuation can be handy for internal soundcards and stepped attenuator amps.
   
  Crossfeed audio has recently been added in PotP, maybe gapless will be possible too.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





mikolayer said:


> I stopped using KMP ever since I moved to PotPlayer (developed by the same lead programmer as KMP). The main advantage for me was proper EVR functionality, less clutter and resources used. If I get a chance, maybe I will check and see if we I could apply the same method described here to get WASAPI working on it.


 


 Great stuff!  I always liked KMplayer for video/TV..etc...great once you get it set up right.  Although I never used it for music aside form simple tests.
  Thanks for the mention, I will have to check it out and see if I can get it set up for music.


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## MikoLayer

yeah, check out tokplayer also while you are at it. My main rig was giving me some weird crashes with the potplayer after the last update, so switched to tokplayer. Seems to be pretty good, very similar menus/shortcuts/features. The secondary machine still has poplayer chugging along just fine.


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## padam

I would like to configure my PC for movie playback, what should I do?
   
  The Halide Bridge I am using needs 24 bit input and foobar + wasapi works but kmplayer + reclock doesn't.


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## leeperry

WASAPI Excl. and 24bit output would do.
   
  PotPlayer is great too: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148745


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## Omega17TheTrue

Yes, KMPlayer is now obsolete, Potplayer is like a upgrade version made by the same maker with new features, lighter and great integrated skins (even KMP skin).
   
  I need to make a new tutorial.


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## padam

Thanks, this is new to me. I will try and report back.


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## padam

Reclock + Potplayer is working great (thanks for the tip!), Besides setting Reclock to 24 bit I set the buffer to 50 ms as I do in Foobar. Unfortunately with deep bass I get a little clipping, hopefully with some trickery I can avoid it.


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## leeperry

There's no point in lowering the buffer in audio-only mode, I've got it set to 75ms


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## padam

Yes, the Halide only doesn't like high buffer.
   
  Is there a way to get rid of the little distortions? Shall I disable all kinds of audio filters?
   
  And do I get right that the volume control should be set to master?


----------



## leeperry

padam said:


> Yes, the Halide only doesn't like high buffer.
> 
> Is there a way to get rid of the little distortions? Shall I disable all kinds of audio filters?
> 
> And do I get right that the volume control should be set to master?


 

 That's not the soundcard's driver buffer, that's Reclock's internal buffer..whatever you will input will not affect Windows AFAIK. At 75ms, you shouldn't be getting any "distortion". I can't talk for your media player's filters....all you need is ffdshow IME.
   
  Reclock's internal volume control runs in 53bit...a lot more than Windows 32fp, so if I were you, I'd leave the media player's volume control set on "default".
  


omega17thetrue said:


> Potplayer [..] I need to make a new tutorial.


 

 Sounds great, but you can't do gapless in either of those regular DS players...which is completely unacceptable in 2010 IMHO.
   
  I was told that you could get Reclock to do gapless and VST plugins using JRiver's software: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=58524.0
   
  Now, this kind of tutorial would be seriously great.


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## padam

I don't get any distortion with music playback, only with movies and it doesn't matter if the audio is 2.0 or 5.1


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## leeperry

so it's got to do w/ the decoders or your media player configuration...if I were you, I'd install PotPlayer, disable its built-in filters, and use ffdshow on top. That's what I do, everything works wonderfully in Reclock.


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## padam

Upgraded to the latest Potplayer using the built-in update, and now the clipping stops after 10 seconds or so, so I guess it is a buffer-related issue.


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