# Corda Symphony info and impressions



## jma790

The Corda Symphony was released on October, 2008. It's considered per Jan as the succesor to his praised Corda Opera, and is considered by him as his best amp to date. Some people have been lucky enough to grab one, and their impressions can be found in the next pages.
 If you are interested on it, you can check Meier Audio's site at:
Meier-Audio


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## Namrac

Looks great, the black/silver motif really works. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So what do you guys think for price? $1700-2000?


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## anadin

That looks very tasty.

 I wonder if it has a built in DAC.


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## jma790

Yes, it has a built in DAC with the Wolfson WM8741 as the D/A converter and some Texas Instruments ones for the USB to S/PDIF inputs. It's actually a great DAC structure... It's supposed to be better than that of the Opera. And the Symphony even has 3 digital inputs!
 I don't know about the price, but considering that all the amps had a price drop, I think this one will be meant to fill the price category of the Opera; about $1300-1400... but maybe it could cost a bit more


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## anadin

That amp/DAC is very much on my shopping list when it becomes available.


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## onocentaur

Crap, that's a really expensive new headphone (Denon D7000) _and_ a really expensive new amp to buy. Curse you head-fi!


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## jma790

Would you buy it when it comes out??
 I wonder how good the balanced concept can be...


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## vcoheda

wow! looks nice.


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## Kasp3r

I want...


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## calaf

reading the specs it looks like an Opera with a better and more flexible DAC. I agree with jma790: I bet the price will be in the (original) Opera range ~€800-900. Hard to tell these days how much that will be in US$ in October...


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## orkney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *calaf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_reading the specs it looks like an Opera with a better and more flexible DAC. I agree with jma790: I bet the price will be in the (original) Opera range ~€800-900. Hard to tell these days how much that will be in US$ in October..._

 

And an upgraded volume control, etc. And apparently the same gain factor, which I found a bit tricky with the Opera. It's a nice-looking unit, anyway, and ought to be a solid performer. Good news.

 best,

 o


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## calaf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *orkney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And an upgraded volume control, etc._

 

right you are! I missed that:
  Quote:


 Discrete volume control using relais and an EBE digital encoder rotary switch.
 1dB step size, 30 steps. 
 

never heard of this approach to a discrete volume control. Is it something which has been used for other amps?


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## itsborken

Nobody can say his amp's aren't stylish. I wonder if there are improvements to the amp section...


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## Skylab

Looks very nice IMO, and the idea of selectable digital filters on the DAC is very intriguing. I'm starting to drool


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## itsborken

Thought you went totally tubular.


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## jma790

Maybe you will be lucky enough to review it Skylab!


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## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *calaf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_never heard of this approach to a discrete volume control. Is it something which has been used for other amps?_

 

I don't know of any specific commercial amps that use it, but there are a few modules and kits made for DIY purposes. A few people have used ones in their Beta22 build.


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## Drag0n

I hope it also works well as a preamp, and drives better then the opera did.


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## Drosera

Oooh, it's bigger, it's heavier, it must be better! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Out in October already, I really hoped I would have more time to save up.

 (By the way, that Poweramp-2 seems to be new as well.)


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## Drosera

Is anyone else wondering what Jan will call his next amp which will probably appear in about 2 years and be even bigger (and better)? I was wondering about this already before the symphony appeared. You can't really go beyond Opera, as far as large musical works are concerned.

 Well, maybe the Corda Gesamtkunstwerk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Sorry, only Wagner-fans will get this one.)


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## jma790

Hey Guys, I contacted Jan; he told me that the symphony is going to be a lot better than the Opera (go figure lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) both in the amp and DAC sections; he also told me that the DAC structure is pretty good (and with a pretty new design). Finally, he told me that it was going to cost a bit more than the Opera... wich means I will never be able to buy it


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## orkney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone else wondering what Jan will call his next amp which will probably appear in about 2 years and be even bigger (and better)? I was wondering about this already before the symphony appeared. You can't really go beyond Opera, as far as large musical works are concerned.

 Well, maybe the Corda Gesamtkunstwerk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Sorry, only Wagner-fans will get this one.)_

 

Corda Magnum Opus?
 Corda Corpus?
 Corda Bayreuth?

 I'll be interested to hear more about this amp from early adopters. 

 o


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## Drosera

Well, let's just hope that the Corda Requiem is still a long way off. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some first impressions posted on a German forum based on a prototype and just reviewing the amplifier section describe it as follows (paraphrasing): "Somewhat closer to the sound of earlier Meier amps and less warm than the Opera. On the whole a major step forward and in a different league compared to its predecessor". (These are by Richter Di, I hope he doesn't mind me posting them here.)

 Sounds very promising, although I actually rather liked the slightly warm sound of the Opera.


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## CrazyRay

WOW!
 It looks like the OPERA is finally getting down toward my price range! 
 OPERA analog: $750.00!


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## Turgidson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone else wondering what Jan will call his next amp which will probably appear in about 2 years and be even bigger (and better)? I was wondering about this already before the symphony appeared. *You can't really go beyond Opera, as far as large musical works are concerned.*_

 

Depends on the work. Some symphonies (like Mahler's 8th) feature much larger musical forces than many operas. Baroque operas use rather small orchestras, as do baroque symphonies. So it's no easy comparison.

 As for the next names, "Concerto" has not been taken yet, nor "Oratorio", but they don't feel bigger than "Opera" or "Symphony". I'd rather bet on "Concerto", though this one would feel better for something between the Cantate and the Symphony. So perhaps that'd be a change of the naming scheme.

 By the way, it'd be fun if someone would name an amp the _4'33"_.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Turgidson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Depends on the work. Some symphonies (like Mahler's 8th) feature much larger musical forces than many operas. Baroque operas use rather small orchestras, as do baroque symphonies. So it's no easy comparison._

 

I know, I know... (I didn't think the question would be taken up _this_ seriously 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) You could even argue that Mahler's 8th is just a big cantate. But, as you say, it's about the 'feel' of the name.
 My bet is actually on a numbering scheme, perhaps starting with the Symphony. I'm already curious what Meier's 9th will sound like. (Although he might want to avoid that rather cursed number.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Turgidson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way, it'd be fun if someone would name an amp the 4'33". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, but only if it's broken.


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## jma790

Corda Symphony... 4'33"?... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hmmm... I wonder why the portable ones didn't follow this naming scheme... maybe a Corda Chorus?


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## Turgidson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My bet is actually on a numbering scheme, perhaps starting with the Symphony. I'm already curious what Meier's 9th will sound like. (Although he might want to avoid that rather cursed number.)_

 

My bet would rather be on using the names of famous musical works, though that would be impractical for many symphonies and concertos. Names such as "Corda Valkyrie", "Corda Pastorale" or "Corda Bolero" don't sound bad to me. Of course, we'd better avoid the "Corda Unfinished", or an infamous "Corda 4'33". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Yes, but only if it's broken. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

That could still be marketed as the first ever 0-gain amp, with unmatched transparency. It's like no amp was even there.


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## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Turgidson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That could still be marketed as the first ever 0-gain amp, with unmatched transparency. It's like no amp was even there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 This comment was really funny


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## Drag0n

Corda Quartet
 Corda Accapella
 Corda Solo mono amp
 Corda Duet - dual balanced mono amp
 Corda Ensamble
 Corda Choir
 Corda Tenor, Baritone,Saprano, Alto, etc.

 You can go on and on ,,,lol


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## IPodPJ

What really intrigues me about this amp is the improved power supply section!! The power supply in the Opera was lacking somewhat in my opinion and was only improved somewhat by a very expensive power cord. I wonder why Jan continued to use the LM6171 ops when there are newer ones out? Perhaps they work best with his configurations, or perhaps he didn't want to re-design the entire amp from the ground up. Anyway, I will try to acquire this amp eventually!


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## Anouk

Hello all, WOW a new meier-audio amp. I just bought my first home amp a few months ago! I sure hope I can audition the symphony at qables physical stor ein the Netherlands, when it comes out, to compare it with my current amp an dhopefully the opera if he still has it then because I also think a slightly, SLIGHTLY warm sound is very nice....
 It is also VERY good that this new amp has optical input.
 Greetings, Anouk,


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## Audio-Omega

How much better than the Opera, I wonder.


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## onocentaur

And will there be a symphony-analog?


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## Audio-Omega

Does Corda's balanced setup sound different to single ended setup ?


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does Corda's balanced setup sound different to single ended setup ?_

 

Hard to say. Jan Meier certainly believes so, and the Opera does offer a very 'clean' and transparent sound. But the only way to be sure would be to do a comparison of two of Meier's products where the balanced circuit is disabled in one of them.


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## Downer

Did the price of the Opera analog go down for another 50$ ???


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## IPodPJ

Update:

 3 important upgrades from the Opera ---

 - The amp's digital rotary encoder will replace the manual relay that used to mute the sound. No more clicking relay noises!

 - Digital end is severely improved and according to Jan, 44.1kHz sounds as good or better than 96kHz-upsampled audio, due to extremely high jitter reduction in the DAC. (Also, there is now an optical input as well as Coax and USB)

 - Power supply has vast improvements and there are more of them, dedicated to each part of the amp's circuitry.

 _____________


 I will be one of the first to receive one of these when they are released and will post my opinions promptly!


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## worldman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onocentaur* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And will there be a symphony-analog?_

 

As an owner of an already outstanding DAC, I too am curious if an analog-only version of the Symphony will also be available (at a VERY DEEP DISCOUNT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## gevorg

It looks awesome but DAC1 would probably be a cheaper and better option.


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## Namrac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks awesome but DAC1 would probably be a cheaper and better option._

 

The Symphony's amp section is likely much better than the DAC1's headphone out.


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## Jan Meier

Dear headfellows,

 The announcement of the upcoming Symphony amplifier has resulted in quite a few questions and remarks from some members. Therefore a few answers from my side.

 First question of course is “how much”. Well, I haven’t decided yet but most probably prices will be around EUR 1000,- or USD 1500,-. Sorry, admittedly not really cheap, but given the quality of built and parts as well as the rather low number of amps produced such prices are inevitable. Customers who live inside the European Community have to be aware that that they also have to pay an additional 19% VAT. 

 The amp will be available in two different color schema’s. The black and silver combination as shown in the pictures as well as a silver-grey combination similar to the OPERA. Thus people may choose.

 There are some future plans for a SYMPHONY amplifier without DAC (called CONCERTO). However, my recent investments in new models have been very high (almost USD 200,000.-!!!) and I simply first want to see how the acceptance of the new SYMPHONY is. Meanwhile the CANTATE will stay in my programm and is certainly a fine alternative for a very affordable price.

 “ Does Corda's balanced setup sound different to single ended setup ?”

 In my opinion the answer is “yes”. I remember well the time when the idea for balanced came up for the first time. I then already had a first design of the OPERA finished but made a prototype of an amp that allowed me to switch between three modes of operation; regular passive ground, active ground, and balanced ground. I thought the results to be so convincing that I made a complete redesign of the OPERA.
 I’m aware that true balanced operation (at least in theory) offers even some further sonic advantages but balanced ground is much simpler to use (no need for expensive recabling of headphones) and more universal.

 “ I wonder why Jan continued to use the LM6171 ops when there are newer ones out?”

 Simply because I still prefer the way they sound. I have tried some of these newer audiophile opamps but they haven’t convinced me yet. Sure, the LM6171 is not very easy to use, but with proper implementation it is, in my humble opinion, simply the best sounding opamp of all.

 “ The amp's digital rotary encoder will replace the manual relay that used to mute the sound. No more clicking relay noises! “

 Sorry, but this seems to be a misunderstanding. The muting relais of the OPERA indeed no longer is needed. However the digital rotary encoder is used for volume control only. And this volume control is very special indeed. Using the encoder switch and 5 relais I was able to implement a quasi-logarithmic discrete volume control that has some major advantages over a regular discrete potentiometer.

 The left headphone output still has a 120 Ohm output impedance. However, inside the user can easily place some post shunts to give this output a low output impedance similar to that of the right headphone output. No need to ask for custom changes anymore.

 “ Digital end is severely improved and according to Jan, 44.1kHz sounds as good or better than 96kHz-upsampled audio, due to extremely high jitter reduction in the DAC. “

 It is true, the DAC does not offer upsampling to 96 kHz or 192 kHz. (but it does offer standard oversampling!). The reasons are two-fold:

 - Upsampling does not provide any additional information but basically (only) helps to reduce jitter. However, by lowering the frequency settings of the PLL of the digital receiver of the DAC-section jitter reduction is already clearly better than the standard implementation. This not only is cheaper but it also prevents artefacts introduced by the complex algorithms needed to calculate the new sampling values. The major disadvantage of using non-standard settings for the PLL is the fact that the receiver is no longer able to lock to vario-speed applications. However, that is only important for the DJ-s amongst us.

 - There is another important argument against upsampling. The DAC-chip used (WM8741) offers 9 different settings for the digital input filter but 3 of these filters only works with sampling frequencies upto 48 kHz and three other filters only work up to 96 kHz. With upsampling these filter settings can no longer be used. And these filter settings are very interesting indeed, implementing low pre- and post-ringing algorithms as well as some high frequency roll-off algorithms that really do make a difference! Using upsampling would strongly limit the use of the possibilities offered by this advanced DAC-chip.

 The SYMPHONY, like the OPERA and all other current CORDA amplifiers, besides regular stereo operation only offers one level of crossfeed. The current implementation of the natural crossfeed filter, which has a few improvements over the original design used in the first CORDA models, does not allow for an easy change of crossfeed level. The technical effords would be quite large.

 Any other questions/remarks? Just let me know!

 Cheers

 Jan


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## jma790

Wow, an answer from Jan himself. Thanks for that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 That DAC sounds like it's pretty good.
 Oh, and poor DJ's...


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## trickywombat

Jan:

 Thank you so much for the detailed answers. It shows that you really listen to your customers, and we all appreciate you.


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## Kees

Hoi Jan,
 Soundwise, would you say the new amp is closer to the Prehead MkII/SE than the Opera?


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## nnotis

This is a really exciting product. There's just one thing I want to make sure of. The technical details page on the Meier site gives the following list of supported sample rates for the SPDIF ins: "8..96 kHz." I don't know how to interpret that. From the picture, it looks like there's an LED for 33, 44.1, and 48 kHz. I'm guessing that it also supports 88.2 and 96 kHz. Is that so? And if the input signal is, say, 88.2 kHz, will the 44.1 light be lit?


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## nnotis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks awesome but DAC1 would probably be a cheaper and better option._

 

Hopefully Iron Dreamer will do a 2008 amp/dac shootout. And hopefully, he'll include the Symphony and DAC1 among many others.


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## Audio-Omega

Can't wait for reviews.


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## ZephyrSapphire

That looks beautiful, Jan!

 Oh God.. Another amp to add to my complicated which-amp-to-be-my-first-home-amp list.


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone else wondering what Jan will call his next amp which will probably appear in about 2 years and be even bigger (and better)? I was wondering about this already before the symphony appeared. You can't really go beyond Opera, as far as large musical works are concerned.

 Well, maybe the Corda Gesamtkunstwerk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Sorry, only Wagner-fans will get this one.)_

 

Corda Der Ring des Nibelungen

 it would be the largest scale most dramatic amp ever made.


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## ZephyrSapphire

Corda Valhalla! It'll sing throughout the heavens!


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## MONVMENTVM

Phew... I thought it would cost around 1000 Euro but including VAT. Adding the VAT catapults it to nearly 1200, which kind of kills it for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 I first thought about buying a nice tupe amp (Trafomatic) and a decent DAC. Given that the Symphony is surely a nice amp (though SS) and includes a better DAC made it more appealing to me. But for 1200 Euro I could get a Trafomatic tupe amp and a Apogee Mini DAC.

 Meh... hard to decide.


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## anadin

That has to be a great sounding Amp/DAC for that kind of money.

 Im going to hold back and wait for a few reviews before I jump in.


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## Jan Meier

“Soundwise, would you say the new amp is closer to the Prehead MkII/SE than the Opera?”

 As an amp the SYMPHONY is definitely closer to the OPERA. The heights are a little bit cleaner and a little bit more extended but still the amp has as slight touch of warmth that might be somewhat unusual for a solid-state amp but that makes listening very non-fatiguing. Overall the sound is a little bit tighter.

 The DAC of the OPERA also has a little bit more emphasis on the treble. However, more important the sound can be “tailored” to personal taste by choosing from 9 different filter settings.

 “ The technical details page on the Meier site gives the following list of supported sample rates for the SPDIF ins: "8..96 kHz." I don't know how to interpret that. From the picture, it looks like there's an LED for 33, 44.1, and 48 kHz. I'm guessing that it also supports 88.2 and 96 kHz. Is that so? “

 There is an additional LED that indicates when the DAC is locked to the incoming data stream, which indeed can be from 8 .. 96 kHz. For the most common frequencies (33, 44.1, and 48 kHz) there are additional indication LEDs that can be very usefull, especially when your source is a computer! You will be surprised to see how Winamps handles files of various sampling rates!

 “ That has to be a great sounding Amp/DAC for that kind of money.”

 It is!!






 Jan


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## onocentaur

Jan, could you describe a little about how the DAC filters affect the sound? How much of a change is possible? I don't really understand; are we talking a range from 'warm, bassy' to 'cold, bright', or is more a matter of a slight change of focus?


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## Blackmore

So, this is it, no more upgrades, just the SYMPHONY, or maybe you are planning to make a step in to the tube world
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_*Without doubt the SYMPHONY is the best headphone amplifier we ever made.*_


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As an amp the SYMPHONY is definitely closer to the OPERA. The heights are a little bit cleaner and a little bit more extended but still the amp has as slight touch of warmth that might be somewhat unusual for a solid-state amp but that makes listening very non-fatiguing. Overall the sound is a little bit tighter._

 

This is very reassuring news. Unfortunately, it's also bad news, because it means that I will really have to start saving up. Oh well, here goes. [Still 99% of the price to go.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]


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## Beefy

Hi Jan! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a question on design philosophies...... why use BUF634 in such a high end product instead of a discrete output stage?

 I'm no designer, but from my knowledge of DIY projects pretty much every DIY design that uses BUF634 can be improved significantly by even very simple and inexpensive discrete unity gain buffers like JISBOS.

 Is it a matter of personal sound preference? Cost? Board real estate? Complexity for manufacturing?

 Cheers!


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## Callas

I wish I can afford it...! (now...!) lol


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## orangem

I want to trade in my Opera for the Symphony!


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## anadin

I wonder how many Opera's appear in the for sale forum.


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## QQQ

Also, a question for Jan: Why not discrete design, but still op-amp based?


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how many Opera's appear in the for sale forum.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, now it's the best way to acquire them. On the Meier Audio-site, the Opera with DAC is now sold out. (Apparently they sold really well after the price reduction.)


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## ETK

Question about the AMP for cantate/opera/symphony ( omitting DAC performance):
 They are all balanced ground AMP. According to Skylab's review , Opera is far more better then Cantate. And Symphony will be very similar to Opera.

 But I see from Meier Audio's web site , the number of OPAMPs , buffers for Cantate is equal to that in Opera per-headphone output. ( Opera has 2 headphone output)

 Does the power stage that make the significant difference between Contate and Opera performance ?
 ( Cantate 13V-250mA , Opera & Symphony 13V-500mA)
 Or there are 2 versions of balanced ground circuit ?

 If I purchase Contate , and supply it from some good power source , can Contate sound as good as Opera/Symphony ?


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## jma790

Hmmm... Interesting ETK... altough, if that was possible, I think that would be totally nuts


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## Jan Meier

“could you describe a little about how the DAC filters affect the sound? How much of a change is possible? I don't really understand; are we talking a range from 'warm, bassy' to 'cold, bright', or is more a matter of a slight change of focus?”

 The changes as such are mostly very subtle but nonetheless do make a difference, especially when listening for a long period of time. However, I suggest you wait a few weeks till I have finished the user-manual of the amp. The effects of the various filter settings will then be described in more detail.

 “So, this is it, no more upgrades, just the SYMPHONY”

 Yes, the SYMPHONY will definitely be the new top-of-the-line for a long time to come.

 “or maybe you are planning to make a step in to the tube world”

 For various reasons I have no intentions to produce a new tube amplifier, sorry!

 “ why use BUF634 in such a high end product instead of a discrete output stage? I'm no designer, but from my knowledge of DIY projects pretty much every DIY design that uses BUF634 can be improved significantly by even very simple and inexpensive discrete unity gain buffers like JISBOS.”

 There are two ways to use the BUF634. Either as a stand-alone buffer with unity gain or as a buffer that is placed inside the loop of a controlling opamp. In the last situation, which is actually recommended and described in a technical paper by Burr Brown themselves, the sound is (for 99%) determined by the opamp, not by the buffer.

 ”Why not discrete design, but still op-amp based?”

 Nowadays opamps are much better than most devices 30 years ago, when the “myth” was born that discrete circuits are better than opamp based circuits. Be aware, 99% of all CD-players do use opamps! If properly implemented modern opamps can produce excellent results. The LM6171 used in the SYMPHONY has a maximum slewrate of 3600 V/micros and a unity-gain bandwith of 100 MHz! Try to get that with a discrete circuitry!!

 Within the concept of the CORDA amplifiers the use of opamps has a major benefit that is very difficult to obtain with a discrete circuit. Normally an amp has a signal attenuator at the input (the volume control) followed by an amplification stage that has a fixed amplification factor. However, when this principle is used with a headamp in combination with a very sensitive, low impedance headphone, then the noise generated by the amplification stage becomes easily audible. Using opamps makes it possible to use a concept in which the amplification factor of the amplification stage is changed, instead of having a signal attenuator at the input. As a result noise levels at very low volume settings are much lower.

 “ According to Skylab's review , Opera is far more better then Cantate.”

 Actually, this is where I disagree with Skylab. In his opinion the ARIETTA and CANTATE are relatively close together and the gap to the Symphony is rather large. In my opinion the gap between CANTATE and SYMPHONY is smaller than the gap between ARIETTA and CANTATE. But then, everybody hears differently! J

 “ And Symphony will be very similar to Opera.”

 It will, but nonetheless the SYMPHONY is the better amp. However, always be aware that differences between headamps, especially in this price-range, are relatively small. Differences between headphones are much larger.

 ” I see from Meier Audio's web site , the number of OPAMPs , buffers for Cantate is equal to that in Opera per-headphone output. ( Opera has 2 headphone output)”

 No, the headphone outputs of the OPERA are simply placed in parallel. They do not have separate output stages!

 ” Does the power stage that make the significant difference between Contate and Opera performance ?”

 The OPERA has separated powerlines for the opamps and the output buffers. It certainly is one of the aspects that make the OPERA sound better than the CANTATE.

 “ If I purchase Contate , and supply it from some good power source , can Contate sound as good as Opera/Symphony” 

 To use an external powersupply for the CANTATE would imply major surgery to the amp. Considering the costs and the risks it would be a much better choice to buy an OPERA instead.

 Cheers

 Jan


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## DoubleEs

This is a nice looking amp, has anyone contacted Jan yet about putting their name on a pre-order list?


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## progo

Heck, that black desing makes me weak at the knees 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And the specs look magnificent too. Maybe soon...


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## kendal3334

all products of this brand look similar ~~


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## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kendal3334* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_all products of this brand look similar ~~_

 

 But don't you like the design? I like a lot all the designs of Jan's amps.


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## Callas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But don't you like the design? I like a lot all the designs of Jan's amps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I agree! I'm still waiting for my Opera to arrive, but I'm sure it'll sound amazing compare to what I use now (OBH-11+OBH-2) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The external design of Meier Audio took a BIG part for me too!


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## QQQ

Quote:


 all products of this brand look similar ~~ 
 

There's such thing as signature design touch of a given manufacturer. And it's much better than random crap that some other manufacturers put up.


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## QQQ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, the headphone outputs of the OPERA are simply placed in parallel. They do not have separate output stages!_

 

How will OPERA react if i plug two pairs of 32ohm headphones? Correct me if i'm wrong, but two pairs of 32ohm cans in parallel create 16ohm load on amplifier? Will it be ok for the amp?


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## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kendal3334* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_all products of this brand look similar ~~_

 

Yes.
 Good.


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## ETK

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How will OPERA react if i plug two pairs of 32ohm headphones? Correct me if i'm wrong, but two pairs of 32ohm cans in parallel create 16ohm load on amplifier? Will it be ok for the amp?_

 

In the Opera Manual 
 There is a section :
  Quote:


 Your headphone should be connected to one of the headphone-sockets on the front side of the
 OPERA. Both sockets will provide different sound characteristics. The right socket has a very low
 output impedance and gives the amp tight control over the headphone action. However, various
 headphones have been sonically optimized to be driven by an increased output impedance and
 may sound better when connected to the left socket. Generally, the right socket provides the
 cleanest and fastest sound whereas the left socket yields a warmer sound. Simply use the socket
 you like most. Trust your own ears!
 You can also use the sockets to connect two headphones simultaneously. However, the volume
 produced by the left socket will be slightly lower than that of the right socket. On demand the output
 impedance of the left headphone can be lowered so both headphone-sockets will have the same
 output impedance and the same volume level. If needed contact us for information. 
 

 Thanks Jan , now I understand the headphone Amp in Opera ( and Symphony) use 2X OPAMPs , buffers to dirve the headphone when you just plug in only one headphone. That's nice and worth of the price !! ( 2X of Cantate !!) 

 My K701 and I will be looking forward to get one SYMPHONY in the future~


----------



## jma790

Well, It's interesting to see those variying impedances... they should be really useful. I just hope to see some reviews of the symphony soon.


----------



## MONVMENTVM

Which output would fit better for GS-1000?


----------



## tennisplyr3

i can't wait for a review to show up


----------



## butnotforme

look really nice


----------



## coolcat

Look really nice.very sophisticate


----------



## firefly0071

I wonder if a group purchase would make it cheaper?

 Are pre-orders ready?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is it available in silver ?


----------



## onocentaur

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* 
_Is it available in silver ?_

 

yes.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The amp will be available in two different color schema’s. The black and silver combination as shown in the pictures as well as a silver-grey combination similar to the OPERA. Thus people may choose._


----------



## Audio-Omega

Does the volume control the analog outputs ?


----------



## QQQ

yes


----------



## Audio-Omega

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the volume control the analog outputs ?_

 

Actually it has no analog output so it can't be used as a dac only can it ?


----------



## QQQ

It has preamp output.


----------



## Audio-Omega

The front panel is full of hieroglyphs.


----------



## Richter Di

Finally I ordered my Symphony today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I will keep my Opera to be able to make some 1:1 comparisions.


----------



## Audio-Omega

What's the price ?


----------



## xenithon

I'd be interested to know how this stacks up against the likes of the Grace m902 and Benchmark DAC1 Pre, both of which share similar functionality (DAC, headphone amp, preamp).


----------



## MattDUrben

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the price ?_

 

About 1200,- Euros


----------



## Audio-Omega

I was expecting around 1000 euros. But let's wait for reviews. It could be a bargain.


----------



## xenithon

I beleive it is around 1000 outside of Europe.


----------



## anadin

A one box does it all solution, i've had enough of amps DACS interconnect cables all over the place, this could easily be my next amp.


----------



## Valens7

If this isn't much more than $1000, there's a good chance I'll pick this up. What a sharp-looking, practical piece of gear!


----------



## EnOYiN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Valens7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If this isn't much more than $1000, there's a good chance I'll pick this up. What a sharp-looking, practical piece of gear! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He already mentioned the price in this thread:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First question of course is “how much”. Well, I haven’t decided yet but most probably prices will be around EUR 1000,- or USD 1500,-. Sorry, admittedly not really cheap, but given the quality of built and parts as well as the rather low number of amps produced such prices are inevitable. Customers who live inside the European Community have to be aware that that they also have to pay an additional 19% VAT._


----------



## Godziltw

When will this amp be shipped?


----------



## onocentaur

Jan said it should be in the third week of October... so, soon. I emailed him the other day to ask whether it was still on schedule but he's on holiday for a few days! Will update when I get a reply.

 UPDATE: Jan says "if all goes well the amp should be here by the end of this month."


----------



## anadin

Keep us updated, this is 90% my next DAC/amp.


----------



## Jako253

Mine also!


----------



## DaMnEd

Prices are now listed on the website:
  Quote:


 €990,- / $1360,- outside EU
 €1175,- inside EU


----------



## yepyep_

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DaMnEd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Prices are now listed on the website:_

 

Also, "available starting in the last week of October 2008".

 Good stuff.


----------



## PuffyElvis

This one is going to be hard to resist! I wonder what the lead-time will be to get one once they start shipping?


----------



## jma790

Hi Puffy, as Dr. Meier told me, he will start shipping by the middle/end of the next week if everything goes well. I would say... Go for it! Damn lucky you =P


----------



## PuffyElvis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It has preamp output._

 

If I recall correctly, though, the volume control also effects the preamp output... so I wonder if it is a true PREamp out??


----------



## PuffyElvis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Puffy, as Dr. Meier told me, he will start shipping by the middle/end of the next week if everything goes well. I would say... Go for it! Damn lucky you =P_

 

I'm tempted to get one of these as well as a Starving Student Mini Millet, that way I'll have both a high quality ss amp/dac/preamp and a tube amp to start playing around with... 

 I'm also eagerly awaiting the arrival of my DX1000 cans! Whooohooo!


----------



## Drosera

I'm looking questioningly at my creditcard. Can it take it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Maybe wait just a bit. I'm very eager to read the first reviews.


----------



## onocentaur

Well I'm nr2 on the list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But I've got to decide whether to get the all-silver version, or the silver-black... Arrghh! It should be so simple


----------



## QQQ

Quote:


 If I recall correctly, though, the volume control also effects the preamp output... so I wonder if it is a true PREamp out?? 
 

What is true preamp?
 A simple box with volume control already can be considered preamp.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PuffyElvis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I recall correctly, though, the volume control also effects the preamp output... so I wonder if it is a true PREamp out??_

 

A preamp output is _supposed_ to be volume controled. Otherwise it would be useless as a preamp.....


----------



## pjw241142

Will be interested to see how this compares to the SQ of the Opera


----------



## xenithon

Very tempted....considering both this and the m902. Just a little hesitant / trepidation for a new, untested products


----------



## arquebus

The Symphony User Guide is now available online for those who want to know more. Quite a lot of new and interesting stuff about the DAC filter settings in the manual.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arquebus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Symphony User Guide is now available online for those who want to know more. Quite a lot of new and interesting stuff about the DAC filter settings in the manual._

 

Tried to download what is apparent a MS Word document but failed to open it using MS Word for Mac OS X. Anyone tried ?

 F. Lo


----------



## vkvedam

Yup! thats word doc, but it didn't work for me either.


----------



## yepyep_

For windows, I used a free program called Word Repair. It doesnt repair the pictures but it gets all the text.

 Edit: They've fixed the manual now.


----------



## Headphony

Any news on these being shipped yet? Impressions perhaps?


----------



## arquebus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Headphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any news on these being shipped yet? Impressions perhaps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Jan Meier says in a mail that the first units will start shipping on Friday or Saturday this week if testing goes well.

 Btw. the user guide mentioned above is now replaced with a pdf file which should be easier to read for everybody.


----------



## jma790

I wonder what the reviewers will say... I suppose that new Wolfson Chip must be pretty good


----------



## Audio-Omega

Convert the word document into pdf and it should look right. It worked for me.


----------



## anadin

Any news yet im itching to get one of these.


----------



## fkclo

This is good timing to buy the Symphony, as the Euro exchange rate is much more reasonable these days.

 F. Lo


----------



## arquebus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is good timing to buy the Symphony, as the Euro exchange rate is much more reasonable these days._

 

Well, that's not the case for everybody. These days the exchange rates vary a lot, in my case the exchange rate against EUR was on it's peak level for more than five years the day I paid it, and I think the price increased 7-8 % from I ordered it until I paid it. But then - I have been enjoying very nice rates against EUR and USD over the last years.

 But anyway - my Symphony is on it's way now, and I really look forward to test it.


----------



## anadin

Sod it I can't wait any longer im going to order one.


----------



## xenithon

I look forward to all the impressions. I hope the improved power supply and DAC section give it a little more dynamics than the likes of the Opera which I read can be a little too laid back.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Does crossfeed degrade sound quality ?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does crossfeed degrade sound quality ?_

 

That is a matter of opinion, but in any case, it's defeatable.


----------



## anadin

Thats my order done for a shiny new CORDA SYMPHONY (Headphone amplifier + DAC) (black/silver )

 I cant wait to get it, I have just sold all my other audio related gear to help me fund it.

 950GBP with delivery, I hope its worth it.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does crossfeed degrade sound quality ?_

 

 It pretty much depends on how good the circuit (or software in some cases) implementation is. The crossfeed in Meier amps is pretty good, as it doesn't degrade sound quality; the only difference that I notice is that highs get reduced a little. However, sometimes the crossfeed effect on the music is barely noticeable.
 Hope that helps.


----------



## anadin

I just got an e-mail from Jan saying my Corda Symphony will be shipped this morning


----------



## Anouk

Hey everyone, So good to know the symphony is shipping. I really hope there will be some reviews/comparisons soon!! I am too very interested in comparisons with other amp+dac+preamp solutions like the grace m902. I also would really like to know how good it works with headphones with differen timpedences...
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## Diesp

Seems i'll stop eating meat for the next months if i want one of these !
 Looks like a piece of art by Meier.


----------



## onocentaur

Well, no Symphony here yet... but my replaced D7000s arrived 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 which would be good except I don't have _any_ amp ATM...


----------



## anadin

Waiting on mine also, only shipped this morning so I reckon maybe thursday if im lucky.

 I still dont have a clue what all those filter switches do, cant wait to hear what the DAC sounds like especially with the balanced circuitry.

 I hope my Sony MDR-SA5000's are a good match.


----------



## QQQ

I'd like to have full-black one, hopefully they will arrive later.


----------



## Richter Di

At least mine arrived today. 
 Unfortunately my "Best of Hikaru no Go" CD arrived in parallel 







 and allthough the soundquality of this CD is really bad I enjoy myself currently.
 Here are some comparative pics to my Opera:


----------



## Bozz_Keren

wow you're the first to buy symphony
 congratulations


----------



## Jako253

Congrats, Richter Di!
 Can you please post bigger pictures?
 Some more close-ups?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Both amps are good looking. So how does Symphony sound ?


----------



## fkclo

Still no news about mine. Hopefully it will surface later this week, or next week. 

 F. Lo


----------



## dadozen

I wish I had money to buy a Symphony. But I'll have to go for a Cantate.

 Congratulations to all that purchased this beautiful amplifier, and I hope you all fully enjoy it! It must sound great!


----------



## xenithon

Now that these have starting hitting the street, what we _really_ need are listening impressions


----------



## Anouk

Hey, all good things to those who wait, lol And yes I am impatient too!
 Btw, Xen, I think Iron_dreamer has tried both a grace m892 and an opera so you might want to pm him about that (of course the opera is no symphony though but you might be able to get some ideas from him).
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## anadin

I should get my Symphony on thursday, but until then someone please say if it sounds good or bad.


----------



## onocentaur

It's here! But I can't really unpack it 'til I get home from work, and I'm not going to be able to listen to it until later this evening...


----------



## xenithon

Can't unpack till you get home? Why? 

 If you're at work - that's not a legitimate excuse 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seriously though - congrats and enjoy. Look forward to your impressions this evening


----------



## dadozen

We really need some impressions. I'm already thinking about stop eating, drinking coke, buying my cigarettes and driving my car to save money and buy one. ARGH!


----------



## anadin

onocentaur do me one favour when you get time, checkout the symphony via S/PDIF input using the DAC and tell me what you think of its SQ briefly.


----------



## onocentaur

Well, I've had a brief listen...
 it's rather nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my main first impression is one of clarity and brilliant soundstage definition. I used the optical input with 4-fold sampling and filter 2 ('the vinyl approach'). Apart from the sound, it's a very nice-looking amp (I got the black & silver case). The stepped volume control feels nice!
 It's burning in now but I'll update as things develop. Bear in mind I'm also using my new, unburned in D7000s with it


----------



## Anouk

Hey everyone, wow the d7000 way to go! I heard that one needs plenty of juice not withstanding its low impedance rating. What experience do you have with other amps/headphones and do you use lossless, or dont you use a computer?
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## xenithon

Thanks for the update - will eagerly await further impressions from those that received their amps.

 In case you are jotting down notes, I'm particularly interested in how warm the amp is (I believe it is meant to be warm for SS but more neutral than the Opera), and how good its DAC is relative to other sources


----------



## Anouk

Hey everyone, I would like to know if you notice any difference while using the different oversampling/filter options? I have no experience with meier-audio crossfeed so I am interested in that too but I guess that too is pretty subtle. I have a headroom amp now that has crossfeed as well, with some songs its barely noticable but it really helps with songs that have extreme left-right separation like old stereo recordings, it also seems to 'warm up'the sound a bit with muy amp. I am also interested if thers is a difference in sound with low/high gain. This is not the case with my current amp but I heard it was the case with the opera so it might be the seem now...
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## onocentaur

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Anouk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What experience do you have with other amps/headphones and do you use lossless, or dont you use a computer?_

 

Well I'd be useless at comparing anything properly since I've only ever really owned one amp/can set at a time. But I've had: SR80, SR220, SR320, MS-Pro, GS1000 (SE and balanced), HD650, K701, MD2000, D5000, DX1000, A900 and W5000 can-wise; and Porta Corda mkII, Hornet M, Move, portable Millet Hybrid, Apache, Apogee Mini-Dac and Opera (twice!) amp-wise. I have always used lossless (although I've gone from Apple lossless to flac - iPod (then iMod) to a Sonos system as source).
 Anyway, so far I'm enjoying the Symphony/D7000 at least as much as I've enjoyed any of those, although I have to allow for new toy syndrome!

 For all those who are asking for specific comparisons, I'm sorry but I think you'll have to wait for someone better-equipped than me (both better ears and better hardware!); not only do I have no other cans/amps/sources to play with, my system is set up in such a way as to make it a complete pain in the arse to adjust. I promise to update with my very subjective notes as it burns-in though.
 Although - I am rather hoping that this time I will finally be satisfied, and can escape the wallet-decimating clutches of Head-fi...


----------



## Anouk

Hey, Wow, I thought i had owned a lot of cans! I myself also dont like hoarding headphones... or amps for that matter. 
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## xenithon

Quote:


 I promise to update with my very subjective notes as it burns-in though. 
 

We will hold you (and any others who have received their Symphony) to it


----------



## xenithon

Evening guys....any more impressions and/or comparisons perhaps?


----------



## Richter Di

Maybe tomorrow.


----------



## anadin

Still waitng for my Corda Symphony to arrive, the wait is painful.

 It was sent monday so maybe I might get it today.


----------



## Anouk

Hey anadin, I know that shipping to England from nl (which i not germany of coure) through normal post takes indeed 4 working days so it might indeed arrive today or tomorrow at yours...
 Hope you like it,
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## anadin

Yippee you was spot on my Corda Symphony has just arrived via DHL.

 Ordered it moday received it today, great service from Jan.

 I promise I will try and get some images up later and give you a mini-review.

 But first I have a new toy to play with


----------



## jirams

Give it 5 hours to adjust to room temperature before applying power!


----------



## anadin

I got to be honest and say im not that impressed at this early stage.

 I have a couple of issues with the symphony already.

 I am using the s/pdif from my M-Audio Audiophile 192 going into the symphony and every now and then the music will simply cut out for maybe a second and then return, my soundcard is 100% as I use it with my stello DA100 signature and have never had a problem.

 Another thing I have noticed is the gain even on high and full volume it hardly drives my Sony MRD-SA5000's to good enough volume levels.

 I dont know if I have a duff Symphony but I would say that the DAC doesnt come anywhere near the Stello DA100 signature, i'd even go as far and say the DAC in the Headamp Pico is better.


----------



## capitano

Anadin:
 In two hours, without burn it, how can you state DAC is so wrong? have you tried all the 9 positions yet?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I too received my Symphony today, listen for half hour, so i cannot give any comments apart that at this stage, contrary to you, I am well impressed about SQ...also the preamp seems better than my Marantz SR8500..but I'll wait some time to judge it.


----------



## Anouk

Hy Anadin, Man that sucks! I am not sure what the impedance/sensitivity of the sony is, but I thought it was not that high on the impedance part. Do you have the volume in windows or whatever you are using set to max? Well maybe that only matters with usb. I think I read in another thread that the default value for high gain on the opera is not that high so tha tyou have more usable volume with the volume pot. Maybe, if it is really a problem, you should ask Jan to make the default value of the high gain higher. I Think, but am not sure, that ist +8db now...
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## Anouk

Hey, the dac problem really sucks though.
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## anadin

I have to crank the volume to nearly max on high gain to enjoy the music which is ridiculous. low gain with volume maxed is so quiet. 

 changing headphone sockets from left to right makes a difference, the left side has such a low volume its ridiculous, right side improves things but im still not impressed.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear headfellows,

 The maximum output voltage of the SYMPHONY using the internal DAC at maximum gain is 5.5 Volts peak-value.

 The impedance of Anadin’s headphone (MDR-SA5000) is 70 Ohm and their sensitivity is 102 dB/mW

 Some calculations give a maximum soundpressure of a sinus wave of 149 dB! That’s enough to make any ears bleed.

 I do not know what exactly is going wrong in the setup of Anadin. Of course it could well be a problem with the amp due to some shipping damage. However, if sound is not distorted and if output level is too low this normally indicates a problem with the PC (software or hardware). It could be that somewhere in the system (Media-player, K-mixer) the maximum sound level is digitally reduced by some improper system settings.

 I’ve asked Anadin to connect the amp to a stationary CD-player, just to make sure that the digital input signal is not flawed in any way. This will make it more easy to determine whether the problem comes from the PC or from the amp.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont know if I have a duff Symphony but I would say that the DAC doesnt come anywhere near the Stello DA100 signature, i'd even go as far and say the DAC in the Headamp Pico is better._

 

I personally can't coment on the Stello DA100 but I can offer a comparison - allthough very perliminary - to the AQVOX D/A MK I. The Symphony DAC offers realy high transparency and seems to play at least in the same league.

 I yesterday made an interesting comparision:

 highly modified Cambridge CD-player as drive ->

 A) AQVOX -> Hybrid Amp -> Stax 4070
 B) Symphony -> Ultrasone Edition 9

 For me the B) combination was clearly superior.


----------



## jma790

Nice to see you around Jan.
 I hope that we can get more impressions of this great amp.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to crank the volume to nearly max on high gain to enjoy the music which is ridiculous. low gain with volume maxed is so quiet. 

 changing headphone sockets from left to right makes a difference, the left side has such a low volume its ridiculous, right side improves things but im still not impressed._

 

Would it be some simple, like setting the mains voltage at the back of the amp ? 

 F. Lo


----------



## onocentaur

Over 100 hours in now, and I can't really offer anything other than: I think it sounds perfect. I can't find anything 'wrong' at all. I hope nothing bad happens over the next 100 hours...


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it be some simple, like setting the mains voltage at the back of the amp ? 

 F. Lo_

 


 The amp can be set to 220 VAC or 110 VAC. Here in the UK (220 VAC) if it was wrongly set to 110 VAC then the transformer(s) would have burnt out by now.


----------



## onocentaur

Nearly 200 hours now. I love this amp (+ D7000). The sound is full throughout the range and well extended at both ends. Bass is thumping and sooo low, the highs are, well, high; I can't hear any sibiliance or harshness. Something I've never really thought about with other amps/cans before, but I've noticed here, is the 'cohesiveness' of the sound: there's no seperation(?) between bass and mids and treble. It's all one smooth, organic thing. Soundstage width is lacking compared to some other cans I've owned, but image specifity and placement is beyond _any_ other combo I've heard. (I wonder if markl mods to the earpads will enlarge the soundstage width whilst retaining the imaging? I might experiment in due course...) Compared to my once-loved GS1000s, there is a lack of 'air' in the sound, but then the D7000s are closed, and this is more than made up for by the solidity and intimacy of the sound.

 Having just written that little description it seems more about the D7000 than the Symphony. I don't know how the D7000s fare with other amps, or how the Symphony fares with other cans; but for me, it's a match made in heaven. Head-fi, thanks, now please leave my wallet alone!


----------



## argentum

Quote:


 Head-fi, thanks, now please leave my wallet alone! 
 

Run Forrest run ! But seriously who are we kidding here ?


----------



## capitano

I am not an expert like more of you.
 But I can only say that with my rig: Flac music stored in NAS > Squeezebox Duet > Symphony > Apuresound V3 Sennheiser HD 650 the sound quality is good, very very good.


----------



## Sofronitsky0423

I think I speak for us all when I say: MORE IMPRESSIONS PLEASE!!!!


----------



## revenge

I have to say, from the very beginning, that I am a Meier fan. I still own the original Prehead, I also use a Corda 2Move. A few days ago I decided to give Symphony a try so I bought one, a couple of weeks old, from a great head.fi-er. But, as much as I enjoy Jan's products, I have mixed feelings about his latest creation.

 The amp section is great and the SQ is stellar although, as the other owners have already noticed, the power does seem insuficient at times. For instance with my GS1000 connected to the left headphone output (the "warm" one) I have to select the high gain output and crank the volume past 12 o'clock. Anyway nothing to complain about the SQ, the amp is dead silent even at full volume, with no audible distorsion. On a side, I'd say the sound is closer to my Prehead than to Opera, with added refinement, resolution and a bit of darkness. 
 The new crossfeed is a must, I keep it always on. Of course, it is a matter of individual taste but, in my opinion, the new crossfeed conveys a better sense of space, helps my cans sound more realistic. 

 My problems are mainly concerning the DAC section. 
 Sometimes there is noticeable clipping with low impedance headphones (Denon AH-D7000). Also switching on the lights in the house (neon lights) causes droppouts and distorsions and you can actually see the blue leds blinking on the DAC side. I am not using the USB in but the SPDIF coaxial in from a Wadia iTransport. The issues are exclusively DAC related, as, if I use the analog in, feeding the amp from my Lavry DA10, the amp works like a charm, trouble free. 
 Lavry is still ruling over the integrated DAC which sounds a bit harsher, thinner, less detailed than the venerable Lavry, but I have to say, leaving the problems aside, that Symphony's dac section is on par with a lot of sub-1000 euro cd players and the audition is entirely enjoyable, close enough to the 1000 dollars professional DAC's used as a reference in most reviews (Benchmark, Lavry, Apogee etc).


----------



## revenge

If I feed GS1000 from Symphony using the integrated DAC, the sound is a bit harsh, thin and aggressive for my taste. That's why I keep GS1000 in the left, warm sounding headphone socket. Using this socket and setting the gain switch to high, the sound is excellent. But if I use Lavry as a source, connecting it to the line in of Symphony, there's no need for the "warm" socket and I can use the amp on the low gain setting (although I still have to set the volume quite high, past 12 most of the time and I am really a low level listener!). The sound quality is even more impressive and I definitely prefer, in this setup, GS1000 over D7000. 
 Using the integrated DAC, GS1000 is simply too much of a Grado while Denon is so good at reproducing textures, bass lines, midrange is clearly superior to GS1000. Then again, GS1000 is all about air, transparency, the feeling of being there.


----------



## Anouk

Hello, Maybe you should contact jan about the dac/grado gs1000/low impedance phone problems, maybe he cen fix these htings in the symphony..
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Revenge,

 > The amp section is great and the SQ is stellar

 Glad to hear that. 

 > the power does seem insuficient at times. For instance with my GS1000 connected to the left headphone output (the "warm" one) I have to select the high gain output and crank the volume past 12 o'clock.

 Please be aware that the volume control is entirely logarithmic. At 12 o’clock you’re still 16..20 dB below maximum sound level. With conventional (quasi logarithmic) potentiometers this is normally not more than 10..12 dB.

 Also note that the GS1000 has an impedance of around 30 Ohm. In combination with a 120 Ohm output impedance using the left output will result in an additional decrease of sound level. The right output will be louder by around 14 dB!

 Admittedly the gain may not be enough for the real headbangers, especially in combination with a K1000, but always note that higher gain factors also result in higher background noise and more distortion. Therefore I prefer medium gain levels only. CORDA amplifiers are about quality of sound, not quantity.

 > On a side, I'd say the sound is closer to my Prehead than to Opera, with added refinement, resolution and a bit of darkness.

 Yes, I agree. The SYMPHONY is a little bit cleaner and tighter sounding than the OPERA but it also is a little bit less harsh than the PREHEAD. Somehow I feel it is the most neutral and honest amp of these three models.

 > The new crossfeed is a must, I keep it always on.

 I’m glad you like it. The changes to the crossfeed on the PREHEAD are subtle but noticable. The only disadvantage of the crossfeed on the SYMPHONY is, that it is much more complicated to implement a multi-level design. The SYMPHONY therefore only has an ON/OFF crossfeed whereas the PREHEAD offers more levels.

 > My problems are mainly concerning the DAC section. Sometimes there is noticeable clipping with low impedance headphones (Denon AH-D7000).

 ???

 If clipping occurs with certain headphones only, then this can not be caused by the DAC-section. Otherwise it would be noticed with all headphones.

 Clipping within the SYMPHONY can only occur from the amp-section. However, given the output power of the amp this is very unlikely.

 Are you sure that the clipping is not coming from the recording or from your headphones (the drivers reaching their limits at high sound levels)? What sources are you using? Have you activated a digital equalizer? Pumping ump low frequencies may well cause clipping in the digital domain.

 > Also switching on the lights in the house (neon lights) causes droppouts and distorsions and you can actually see the blue leds blinking on the DAC side. I am not using the USB in but the SPDIF coaxial in from a Wadia iTransport.

 Mm.... When the leds are blinking this indicates that the digital data stream is temporarily interrupted. Two possible causes:

 - Pollution in the mains-power or in the mains-ground results in instabilities in the powersupply of the source or of the SYMPHONY resulting in loss of digital data.

 - The digital connection cable acts as an antenna and picks up some of the radiation caused by the switched neon lights.

 You may try to connect the iTransport to ground. This could decrease susceptibility to external interferences.

 > Lavry is still ruling over the integrated DAC which sounds a bit harsher, thinner, less detailed than the venerable Lavry

 The DAC section of the SYMPHONY is a little bit tighter and less warm than the DAC-section of the OPERA, but attributes like thin and harsh are not what most people would use to describe the DAC.

 How many hours has the amp been running in total? What digital filter settings do you use?

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## revenge

Hi, Jan and thank you for your prompt answer! It is an honor to talk to you, after enjoying your products for so many years! Let me first congratulate you for your new creation. I think it is indeed your best amplifier to date. Now I will try to answer your questions.

 I live in UK at the moment, the amp is grounded. I have no problems with any other electronics I own. 

 The amp has at least 200 hours of use.

 The minute I switch on the neon light in my bathroom, the leds *on the DAC side* (sample rate and lock) are blinking and there is a sound dropout. Nothing wrong on the amplifier side, no blinking there and, if I use Lavry as an analogic source, there is no sonic artifact whatsoever when I switch on the lights. So, again, in my opinion the problems definitely come from the DAC section. 

 I wish I had my Naim CD X2 with me. Unfortunately at the moment I use an Ipod/Wadia iTransport as a digital source with the supplied coaxial cable. However, leaving performance aside, I very much doubt there are problems with it as Lavry DA10 is working great in this setup. In the next days I will try to feed Symphony from my Macbook Pro using both the USB and optical interface. I will also test it with two different coaxial cables as I own a few. So far I've been reluctant in using the USB interface as I have few positive experiences with it but, still, I will give it a try.

 I'm not saying the DAC in itself sounds harsh, thin or aggressive. I'm only saying that this is my feeling *when I compare it with Lavry*. Still, as I said, the differences are not night and day and, if I didn't own the DA10, I would have probably lived happily ever after with the integrated DAC. 

 I use the middle position for both switches - the one that is described in the manual as closest to the vinyl sound.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Revenge,

 > the amp is grounded. I have no problems with any other electronics I own.

 Could you try to ground the iTransport? Maybe that helps.

 > The minute I switch on the neon light in my bathroom, the leds on the DAC side (sample rate and lock) are blinking and there is a sound dropout. Nothing wrong on the amplifier side, no blinking there and, if I use Lavry as an analogic source, there is no sonic artifact whatsoever when I switch on the lights.

 This week I will do some testing and try some modifications that may solve your problem. Hopefully by the end of this week I will have some first results.

 The PLL of the digital receiver of the SYMPHONY is set to a mode in which it has a much higher jitter reduction than usual. The disadvantage is that when locking is lost (intermittent data) it will also take longer to lock again to the incoming data stream. Any interruptions of the data stream will therefore much more audible then with other more conventional digital receivers.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## fkclo

Deleted the draft


----------



## fkclo

I think it is now my turn to share my impressions on the Symphony. This is by no means a review, but more like an account of the first 270 hours I have with the Symphony.

 I am one of the first adopters of Symphony and took delivery in the week of 3rd November. Due to work I have not been able to power it up until a week later on 12th November. Since then I have clocked over 270 hours of run time on the Symphony, and feel it is now time to share my impressions since the amp seems to have settled down.

 Firstly about my setup. I must admit the Symphony was an impulse buy - because I was tempted to see how, using Jan's own words, "the best amp" from Meier Audio performs, as I have never owned other Meier amps before. Since it was never part of the plan, when the Symphony arrived I do not have a place for it on my rig. As a result, I put the Symphony on my desktop, with my Nagra CDP put on top of it. 

 In the current setup my Symphony took 4 inputs :

 a. Analogue output from my Nagra CDP CD player
 b. Analogue output from my Emm Labs CDSA SE player
 c. SPDIF coaxial input from the Nagra CDP
 d. USB output from my iMac 24" LCD playing lossless files from iTunes

 For cables, I am using the following :

 1. Ridge Street Audio Design Poimea!!! R-V3 USB Digital Master cable connecting my iMac and the Symphony USB input
 2. Crystal Cable Ultra Interconnect connecting the Emm Labs CDSA SE with a custom switch (through which the CDSA SE can be connected to my other amps) 
 3. Cyrstal Cable Reference Interconnect connecting the Nagra CDP
 4. KCI Falcon custom SPDIF coaxial cable connecting the Nagra CDP digital out

 For power supply, all the power is tapped from a Furutech TP-80e which I have used for over 2 years. The Symphony got its power through a Cyrstal Cable Reference Power Cord.

 The whole idea behind the interconnects and the power cords was to make sure all the sources are connected with some of the better cables to make sure there is no obvious bottleneck upstream. While many have debated about the usefulness of an expensive USB cable, I have picked a Poimea which was superior sounding compared to any of the stock USB cables I have tried. However, I have absolutely no intention to argue this here.

*[size=large]The 270 hours journey[/size]*

 I must say when the Symphony was first powered up it didn't sound right, and I, like others, was wondering if there was something wrong with what Jan claimed to be the best amp from his camp.

 First, there is an apparent lack of power. As some has already suggested, the "low gain" setting was almost useless. Even with my 40 ohm Edition 9 the Symphony seems to be running out of steam with low gain and I have turned the volume well beyond 12 o'clock to get an acceptable loudness, which in fact is not that loud since I consider myself very disciplined when it comes to listening volume.

 Then the sound was also at the back - too laid back & veiled that I feel like listening to a concert next door. I pulled out my handy reference K2 HD CD "Red Cliff Capriccio" [FIM K2HD 076] which is a real reference to test the resolution, speed, dynamics and balance of a setup - and was disappointed to note that the Symphony was at least two notches below what I used to enjoy with the rest of my gears (see my signature). I even compared it with my 300 hours old SR-71A and have to say the SR-71A sounds much more competent !

 Then I switched to the USB audio. While the loudness has improved ( apparently the DAC analogue output has higher voltage than the one I have with the Nagra (which was set to 1 VMS at its analogue output). But the resolution is really not there - especially considering I am listening to a US$1,300 amp. 

 Listening to the analogue out from Emm Labs, things were simply not impressive during the first 10 hours. I have to switch the Emm Labs CDSA SE to high analogue output setting in order to achieve a volume setting that matches what I used to have on my other amps. This did not sound right. 

 During the first 10 - 20 hours I played with different sources, different recordings, and different settings. Sure, the Symphony seemed underpowered, and lacked resolution and depth. It was like your have a battery powered amp, and the battery was dying when you try to turn up the volume. I could almost feel that the Symphony was working hard but not delivering the goods. However, I did not come across any "clipping" in sound, or failure to lock on the digital signal. 

 At the same time, I plugged different phones to the Symphony. The amp has a real hard time with my newly acquired and recabled K340 and my recabled K501. I missed the sound I heard when I plugged the K340 to my Woo Audio 5. It was not even close when voiced with the Symphony. With the HD650 the amps sounds o.k. but honestly it was on par with what I have heard from my portable SR-71A! Most surprisingly was my HP-1000/HP1 which is not a particularly difficult to drive headphone, seemed to be struggling with the Symphony. 

 My heart sank! I kept wondering if I messed up the obvious. I checked and double checked my settings, power supply, cables and my sources but could not find any wrong. This is the first time in my hobby that I felt disappointed with a new piece of component. 

 I was wondering if I have got a defective unit, or the "best" amp from Jan was just hype. After the first two nights of listening, I thought of returning the amp. But then I thought if I have spent 300 hours on my SR-71A, 500 hours on a Xin Reference, and over 600 hours on a pair of K701, why shouldn't I give the Symphony the same chance ? - though honestly I did not know what to expect. I have bought quite a few amps over the past few years and never came across one that sounded so disappointing out of the box. 

 In the subsequent weeks, I kept the Symphony running 24/7 with my Edition 9 (occasionally swap with my HP-1) using USB input streaming my iTunes collection. I did not give it too much attention other than making sure the amp is still cool to the touch. I logged the running hours using a spreadsheet which I used for all burn-in activities to keep track of the status.

 One night, after 116 hours of running, I picked up the Edition 9 and had a listen through the Symphony. To my surprise, I found it too loud ! (It was still on high gain setting which was where I left off). So I switched to low gain and have the volume set to 10 o'clock - this gives me the usual listening volume I prefer on my Edition 9. I spent 30 minutes listening to it and noted the sound has obviously opened up, there was life in the music! But the resolution is still somewhat lacking and while the bass started to emerge it is not the quality I would like - there was still no texture, and one cannot distinguishes the different layers of bass. But it was a good sign that the Symphony is picking up life. 

 After 220 hours of continuously running I give the Symphony another listen, still using my Edition 9. The sound stage opened up - in all directions. Now, I can hear the depth of the sound stage. Imaging was getting much improved too. Listening through the HP-1000/HP1 at this stage revealed the degree of resolution I would expect from a headphone amplifier at this price range. Plugging in a HD650 and using high gain setting I now am able to listen at good volume with the volume pot set at around 11 - 13 o'clock (depending on the source). The unpleasant feeling of underpower which I experienced in the early days are no longer bordering me (although I believe it is still there somehow). I switched back to direct analogue input from my Nagra CDP - again, the amp is now more lively, although I will have to turn the volume up by two to three steps to reach the volume I would desire. ( I think the low output voltage of 1V RMS of the CDP is part of the reason). I now no longer need to switch the CDSA SE to high output mode (6v RMS) to achieve a reasonable volume. This is a transformational experience that I never came across in all other amps I have owned. The Symphony is now showing its promise.

 Right now I have 270+ hours on the Symphony. To my ears the amp is still evolving slightly, but have more or less settled down. So I think I can conclude my first impressions. 

 [size=large]*First Impressions*[/size]

 Despite the initial hardship with the amp, the Symphony is a great component. Since I have not owned other Meier amps I am not able to tell how the Symphony compares against others in the same family. To me, the Symphony sounds elegant, balanced, transparent, well-mannered, and provides the resolution one would expect from a top tier headphone amp. The sound stage is realistic and of the right proportions - without blowing up width and depth to an unrealistic level. The depth of sound stage is impressive, as I can hear clearly the placement of performers and instruments at different positions on stage. Imaging is precise, and more importantly, of the right size. I can hear coherent sound as one continuous piece of music, rather than the nodes in isolation. Dynamics are good but certainly not aggressive or lightning fast. It is worth noting that Symphony is not a muscular amp that impresses by display of raw power. It is much more refined, sounds civilized and elegant. But like a well educated person, the Symphony has its way to convey emotions that are true to the performer's intent. The interesting thing is that the Symphony achieves this not by adding warmth, or rendering a rich, lush sound to seduce you, but by being true to the source and adding that tiny bit of organic touch to allow me to feel the flesh of the performers, and the feelings in their performance. 

 At the time of this writing, I am hearing "All of Me - The Debonair, Mr. Hartman" - a K2 HD remastering of the 1956 recording by John Hartman in New York, and can feel how the songs touched my heart. This is an intimate listening experience which is far from common place with many of the so called first class amps.

 So, what about the DAC section of the amp ? I would say it is a very good DAC. I have two favorite settings - one with both switches at the middle, and the other with the right switch on the top position, and the left in the middle. That said, the differences are far from day and night, and I doubt if I can detect the difference between some of the settings. I guess this also depends on the type of recordings being decoded. Overall, the DAC is very resolving, but doesn't feel analytical, which I think is attributed to the very good analogue stage. Unlike others, my DAC in the Symphony have absolutely no problem catching up with my iMac, no matter which settings I used. Straightly on the USB DAC alone, I personally feel that my Ultra-Fi iRoc is a bit warmer, more organic and more engaging, which sounds great with jazz and vocals. But the Symphony DAC is more balanced that it suits a wider spectrum of genre. To my ears, it is definitely better than the Stello DA100's USB, which I once called the best implementation of USB audio in the US$600 price range. 

 It is not easy to isolate the DAC portion of the Symphony to compare it with my other DACs ( Level 3 modified Bel Canto DAC3, BenchMark DAC1 USB, Grace M902, ...) When I described how the DAC sounds I am also including how the Symphony sounds, and I am sure Jan from Meier has taken full advantage of the synergy between the amp and the DAC in his design. 

 Is the Symphony's DAC better than that built-in my Nagra CDP? Sorry, it isn't. The Nagra CDP built-in DAC is better on all counts - though honestly it is not day and night. Interesting, the Symphony DAC has a sound signature quite similar to the Nagra, although the latter being simply better. The Nagra CDP is such a stand alone CD player that I doubt any DAC below US$3,000 can provide a better sound. But to be fair, the Nagra CDP is a US$12,000+ machine and forcing a comparison to the US$1,300 headphone amp + DAC Symphony is more like a vote of confidence to Jan, and a tribute to the Symphony.

 Is the Symphony the perfect solid state, all-in-one headphone amp ? I think it is best left to others to judge. But for 990Euro (or US$1,300) (worldwide shipment inclusive), I've got a solidly built, feature rich, and versatile headphone amp & DAC combo that sounds superb and refined. There was minimal waiting time for the amp to arrive. I think this is a pretty good deal. Although I didn't say much about the build quality of the Symphony it is one of the best built amp I have owned so far, and it is very likely that I am going to keep it for a longer while.

 If I can make a wish, I would hope the Symphony to be more juicy in its power delivery so that it can release the true potential of my K340 and even my K501, and give more impact when certain passages so demand. I would hope to have a more linear and responsive volume control. It is interesting to note that I sometimes feel that the volume pot need to "think" before reacting to my turning. While I do not have instruments to measure this I feel that it can be a 2 - 3 seconds before the full effect of turning up the volume by 2 steps can be heard. May be my ears are sluggish, but the volume pots on my other amps are definitely more responsive. Not a big deal though and I can easily live with that.

 I only wish the difference between the low and high gain is less. At present, the difference is as much as 15 dB which is a lot. While I believe easy to drive headphones like the Audio Technica, Denon, and Sony headphones will find good use, one more step in between may be perfect - to cater for that lower impedance but not that easy to drive headphones like the AKGs and the HP1000s. 

 I hope you find this journey interesting, and hopefully I can report back if I find anything else worth another note when I reach 500 hours.

 F. Lo


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## fkclo

An illustration of my "ad hoc" rig :







 F. Lo


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## argentum

Does your Earmax SE has more power, when you connect K340 or K501 ? I know it may seem a bit awkward comparison, but interesting for me anyway.


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## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *argentum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does your Earmax SE has more power, when you connect K340 or K501 ? I know it may seem a bit awkward comparison, but interesting for me anyway._

 

I only tried the K340 with my Woo Audio 5 and my RP010B MKII. I did not try this demanding headphones on all my other amps.

 For K501, here is my experience trying 4 different amps under my ownership. I extract this from my other postings in a local forum :

 Extract :

_So far I tried the K501 with 4 amps:-

 The first is my Earmax Silver Edition it is good but I feel that it is not showing the true ability of the K501. Then I listen to it through a LISA III XP. As expected, there is more weight, and bass goes deeper - the K501 is easily better with the LISA III XP.

 Then I plugged in my E.A.R. HP-4, it is another level about the LISA III XP. You can now hear clearly the ambience of the recording venue, and better sound staging. The depth of the sound stage with K501 is also better coming out of the HP-4.

 Now I am listening to it through my Woo Audio 5. And this is the right amp for the K501 - more power, more depth, dense but not syrupy, rich but not muddy, good 3D sound stage, ultra resolution, and I wonder what else can make the K501 sound better. To me, so far, the WA5 sound best with the K501.

 Compared with similar experience with the K701, the impact on amping is not as drastic. Yes, the K701 is very demanding on amping too, but apparently it requires less power than then K501 to shine. One thing to note though, my K701 is re-cabled in balanced configuration (by SAA using Equinox SE cable), and I have to use a matching balanced->TRS adaptor (also made by SAA using Equinox cable) to do the comparison._ 

 End of Extract.

 I hope you find this interesting. Regarding the Symphony, with high gain setting the K501 is able to delivery decent volume. But this was in the early days (less than 50 hours) so the sound quality was not really impressive.

 Hopefully I will try it again later on to see if things have changed after the Symphony comes to life.

 F. Lo


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## anadin

I've kept quiet up to now.

 I had the Corda Symphony for a total of 3 days, 3 days I hear you cry!.

 It was a very costly 3 days might I add, 60GBP to ship it back to Germany and then Jan decides he has to take nearly 50GBP in bank charges which to me seems ludicrous, so in total I lost over 110GBP, the shipping is understandable but those bank charges no way.

 Bottom line is the DAC in the symphony didn't perform to anywhere near the standard of my former Stello DA100 Signature or to that matter my 199GBP Cambridge Audio DacMagic.

 The headamp in the symphony could not and I repeat could not drive my MDR-SA5000's to a satisfactory level, even in high gain it didn't have any guts, the low level gain was an absolute joke, it would have trouble driving a pair of 20ohm earbuds, and yes I tried them in both headphone sockets.

 Jan this is not in anyway a slur on you or your products but I feel the symphony just doesn't cut it, 1000GBP is way overpriced in my opinion for the sort of performance it gives.


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## Kees

Thanks for the review Francis.
 I know you also have the Phonitor coming in, and I was curious to how these two compare.
 But I know enough now allready (I heard the Phonitor at Quables)...
 I am really quite envious of your Nagra CDP.....


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the review Francis.
 I know you also have the Phonitor coming in, and I was curious to how these two compare.
 But I know enough now allready (I heard the Phonitor at Quables)...
 I am really quite envious of your Nagra CDP..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hey Kees,

 Thanks. 

 Power-wise I think the Phonitor is more muscular - it amp has a maximum output of 1.7W and the max consumption of the Phonitor is 24W whereas the the Symphony draws (max ?) 14W which includes the DAC section as well.

 Actually my Phonitor has arrived in Hong Kong and I am making arrangement for its delivery this week. I read the Sound on Sound review and believe this is one capable reference headphone amp.

 F. Lo


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Kees,

 Thanks. 

 Power-wise I think the Phonitor is more muscular - it amp has a maximum output of 1.7W and the max consumption of the Phonitor is 24W whereas the the Symphony draws (max ?) 14W which includes the DAC section as well.

 Actually my Phonitor has arrived in Hong Kong and I am making arrangement for its delivery this week. I read the Sound on Sound review and believe this is one capable reference headphone amp.

 F. Lo_

 

The Phonitor definitely is a reference amp. It reminded me of the RPX-100 (definitely in the same league, the same kind of authority), but a bit cleaner (IMO the Rudistor can be a bit syrupy sometimes, single ended mostly).
 I had hopes for the Symphony, but I think I'll pass and save up for the Phonitor to replace my old Prehead MkII SE.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear fkclo,

 > I must say when the Symphony was first powered up it didn't sound right

 Yep, break-in does make a difference! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 > First, there is an apparent lack of power. As some has already suggested, the "low gain" setting was almost useless. Even with my 40 ohm Edition 9 the Symphony seems to be running out of steam with low gain and I have turned the volume well beyond 12 o'clock to get an acceptable loudness

 > On night, after 126 hours of running, I picked up the Edition 9 and had a listen through the Symphony. To my surprise, I found it too loud ! (It was still on high gain setting which
 is where I left off). So I switched to low gain and have the volume set to 10 o'clock

 It clearly shows how easily the ear is tricked. Break-in does not have any influence on the gain factor and therefore on the absolute sound level that is obtained. However, when sound is slightly muffled we do tend to increase sound levels just in order to hear more detail. The danger is, that we do tend to listen at levels that are very unhealthy to the ear. This effect is very strong with headphones, because we do miss the visceral bass that is normally present when listening to loudspeakers.

 As for the settings, do not fear to go beyond 12 o’clock. Actually in the user-manual it says. “If possible the gain switch should be set such that adequate sound levels are obtained with the volume control set to positions 8..24 approximately.” This corresponds with positions from 10 o’clock till 15 o’clock. The amp sounds best is this control range.

 People do tend to feel that the amp runs out of steam because with most amplifiers they reach adequate sound levels at 9 or 10 o`clock. However, that’s merely psychological. I had a similar situation with my very first amps produced. In the beginning people complained that the amp didn’t go really loud. I then simply changed the nul-setting of the volume control from 7 o`clock to 6 o`clock. Since then no complaints were heard. No technical changes were made but same sound levels were now obtained at 11 o`clock instead of at 12 o`clock. The Symphony starts at 7 o`clock. I guess I simply forgot to use the same trick again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Admittedly the SYMPHONY does not have the gain to drive a K1000 to very high sound levels. Gain factor is medium only. However, with all other headphones gain is more than adequate. Be aware that lower gain results in lower noise levels and lower distortion. Why use very high gain factors if not needed.

 Also note that gain does not equal power. The SYMPHONY has tons of power. It’s just that gain-factor is medium only.

 > After 200 hours of continuously running I give the Symphony another listen, still using my Edition 9. The sound stage opened up - in all directions.

 200 Hours is indeed the break-in time that I recommend. After this periods changes are relatively small.

 > The Symphony sounds civilized and elegant, and is able to convey emotions that are true to the performer's intent. The interesting thing is that the Symphony achieves this not by adding warmth, or rendering a rich, ! lush sound to seduce you, but by being true to the source and adding that tiny bit of organic touch to allow me to feel the flesh of the performers, and the feelings in their performance.

 Mission accomplished! 

 > Is the Symphony's DAC better than that built-in my Nagra CDP? Sorry, it isn't. The Nagra CDP built-in DAC is better on all counts - though honestly it is not day and night.

 No shame on that. However, I would love to hear your comments after another 200 hours running. I have no real long-term experience with the DAC-chip used in the SYMPHONY (which is the Wolfson WM8741) and it would be interesting to know how this chip evolves over time.

 > I would hope to have a more linear and responsive volume control. It is interesting to note that I sometimes feel that the volume pot need to "think" before reacting to my turning.

 Volume is controlled using relais. Therefore there is a small lag between the turning of the dial and the actual change in volume. However, this is just a very small fraction of a second only. Conventional potentiometers by nature do not have such delays.

 > I only wish the difference between the low and high gain is less. At present, the difference is as much as 15 dB which is a lot.

 I know of various people who use very efficient, low impedance in-ears with their stationary setup. For these a very low gain setting is a must. Otherwise they will not have adequate control over sound level. Step size is higher at the first positions of the volume dial.

 Of course it would be optimal to have three different gain settings. However adding such an additional setting would increase the technical “efforts” considerably.

 Anadin,

 > It was a very costly 3 days might I add, 60GBP to ship it back to Germany and then Jan decides he has to take nearly 50GBP in bank charges which to me seems ludicrous, so in total I lost over 110GBP, the shipping is understandable but those bank charges no way.

 You originally complained that the amp didn’t go loud enough when connected to the digital output of your computer system. I asked you to check all digital volume controls in your software and to connect the amp to the digital output of a CD-player just in order to make sure that the problem was not caused by the PC.

 Instead of doing so you simply decided to return the amp. I then promised to check the amp and to pay for all shipping costs if the amp indeed was faulty but that normal refund policy would apply if the amp was working properly, as it did. Refund policy is shown on my website and indicates that you have to pay for my shipping costs. I therefore took EUR 35,- of your payment which corresponds to around GBP 25,-.

 Even before the amp arrived at my doorstep you send me a mail with (quote) “Could you please just refund me my money now, I am not interested in finding out if the amp was faulty I need my money by today as I need it for expenses I have” This, and the fact that you did not make any effort to check whether your PC was working properly or not indicates that your motives in returning the amp were not purely based on sound quality only.

 > The headamp in the symphony could not and I repeat could not drive my MDR-SA5000's to a satisfactory level, even in high gain it didn't have any guts, the low level gain was an absolute joke, it would have trouble driving a pair of 20ohm earbuds, and yes I tried them in both headphone sockets.

 As indicated/calculated in a previous post there could have been something wrong in your PC-setup. A digital reduction of the volume level would not only explain the low volume level but also the lack in sound quality, as it lowers the effective digital resolution considerably.

 Cheers

 Jan


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## anadin

Jan there was and there still is nothing wrong with my PC Setup, im quite knowledgeable in the art of knowing how to set a DAC/amp to a PC.

 I am not the first person to notice a lack of power from the amp, I made my thoughts clear as to what I thought of the amp and the DAC and I stand by it, in my opinion it is underpowered.

 You didn't need to clobber me for bank charges you should of just returned my paypal payment in full, paypal dont charge you for returning payments to there buyers.

 Im not arguing about shipping costs I know thats my responsibilty, its the bank charges you took from me which im not happy about.

 Your assumtions as to why I returned the amp are not true, I returned the amp because I knew it didn't warrant nearly a £1000.

 I sent you €1,175.00 EUR for the amp.
 You returned me €1,140.00 EUR.

 That leaves me 35 EUR out of pocket.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_> I only wish the difference between the low and high gain is less. At present, the difference is as much as 15 dB which is a lot.

 I know of various people who use very efficient, low impedance in-ears with their stationary setup. For these a very low gain setting is a must. Otherwise they will not have adequate control over sound level. Step size is higher at the first positions of the volume dial.

 Of course it would be optimal to have three different gain settings. However adding such an additional setting would increase the technical “efforts” considerably.

 Jan_

 

Hello Jan,

 I can understand where you come from. I just plug in a Sony MDR-F1 to the Symphony, and even at low gain setting, I achieved my usual level of listening at less than 9 o'clock (using my Emm Labs CDSA SE analogue output feed). For most other desktop amps, I do have a problem using the F1 since its 12 ohm impedance is just too low for most.

 The interesting observation is that at low gain setting, even if I turn the volume up all the way to 3 o'clock, I can still bear the sound - yes, it is significantly louder than what it has been at 8 - 9 o'clock, but it was not ear bleeding. Somehow I found the "loudness" more bearable with the Symphony.

 On the other hand, the high gain setting is, at times, can be a little bit too much for my cans. The case in point is my HP-1000/HP-1 - the high gain setting is actually sounding better for the HP-1 but it is a bit on the high side.

 Just some feedback.

 F. Lo


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jan there was and there still is nothing wrong with my PC Setup, im quite knowledgeable in the art of knowing how to set a DAC/amp to a PC.

 I am not the first person to notice a [size=small]*lack of power from the amp*[/size], I made my thoughts clear as to what I thought of the amp and the DAC and I stand by it, in my opinion it is underpowered.

 You didn't need to clobber me for bank charges you should of just returned my paypal payment in full, paypal dont charge you for returning payments to there buyers.

 Im not arguing about shipping costs I know thats my responsibilty, its the bank charges you took from me which im not happy about.

 Your assumtions as to why I returned the amp are not true, I returned the amp because I knew it didn't warrant nearly a £1000.

 I sent you €1,175.00 EUR for the amp.
 You returned me €1,140.00 EUR.

 That leaves me 35 EUR out of pocket._

 

gain gain GAIN - not *power *- how many times does it have to be repeated?


----------



## milkweg

Too much money for me. I might buy a Corda Arietta one of these days though.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know of various people who use very efficient, low impedance in-ears with their stationary setup. For these a very low gain setting is a must. Otherwise they will not have adequate control over sound level. Step size is higher at the first positions of the volume dial._

 

Its not only about inEars. I personally go with my Editon 9 never over 9 o'clock in the low gain setting. So I am very thankfull that Jan has build in a huge area of gain - otherwise I would be lost.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Bottom line is the DAC in the symphony didn't perform to anywhere near the standard of my former Stello DA100 Signature or to that matter my 199GBP Cambridge Audio DacMagic._

 

There must be something wrong with your setup or -- more likely -- your approach. 3 days is 72 hours at best -- by far not enough break-in time for the Symphony. Like others I was underwhelmed by mine in the beginning. I wasn't allarmed, though, because I knew this scenario from the Opera. 


  Quote:


 _The headamp in the symphony could not and I repeat could not drive my MDR-SA5000's to a satisfactory level, even in high gain it didn't have any guts, the low level gain was an absolute joke, it would have trouble driving a pair of 20ohm earbuds, and yes I tried them in both headphone sockets._ 
 

You don't mentioned how exactly this «unability to drive the SA5000» manifested itself. Was there any distortion? I rather suppose you just were surprised by the unusually high volume settings necessary and associated this with lack of power. As Jan explained earlier, that's actually a quality feature: a gain just as high as necessary, in the interest of lowest distortion and noise. For cases where higher gain is needed, there's the gain switch. Personally I haven't needed the high-gain setting so far with my K 701 and my HD 650. 


 In contrast to _anadin_ I'm absolutely taken with the Symphony's DAC. It has extremely high detail and resolution, and this without any sharpness. One critical recording which has always sounded «digital» with every other configuration so far -- Bartók's «Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta» (Denon, 1984) -- suddenly sounds organic and with wonderfully silky-smooth strings. This was still the case through the analogue input (from the UDP-1), although with reduced smoothness. I'm still working to bring the analogue input to the same sonic level, by trying different cables. After all the analogue input offers more impressive threedimensionality and more airiness. In turn the internal DAC's more compact soundstage is compensated by sharper instrument placement. 

 My Symphony is now approaching the 200 hour mark. It has become better and better. I like it already better than the Opera. The most obvious difference is the higher detail and definition throughout the sonic spectrum, particularly in the midrange. Also it is slightly darker, the treble is less «metallic», but airier and more defined, the low bass has more punch. I'm still expecting some minor changes up to 400 hours. But already now I want to congratulate Jan for a fine piece of gear! Not to forget the felicitous aesthetics: my (black) Symphony looks fascinating and extremely elegant.

 I think this amp follows the Meier tradition: far from being spectacular -- instead representing a typical «wire with gain» approach. And in this respect it's the best implementation so far IMO. 
.


----------



## Kees

This reminds me a lot of the discussion we had about the X-CAN v8.
 Some people complained about the v8 not delivering enough power.
 This amp delivers power in spades, but it does it in a very smooth, relaxed and effortless way. 
 This seems to be also the case with the Symphony.
 Some people prefer a forward, dynamic (almost agressive?) sound, they might (mistakenly) think this amp is lacking in power.


----------



## Hottuna_

Sounds like its a hell of an amp.
 Don't have that type of cash lying around however.
 I's certainly like to get a Meier amp sometime in the future. Maybe the next gen Arietta or Cantate...


----------



## Hottuna_

*edit double post


----------



## jirams

Well spoken *JaZZ* - it is nice to see all Jan's work being viewed with some degree of objectivity. Meier Audio has a fine reputation already and I am sure the Symphony will contribute to this and to the pleasure of all its owners in the future.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jirams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well spoken *JaZZ* - it is nice to see all Jan's work being viewed with some degree of objectivity. Meier Audio has a fine reputation already and I am sure the Symphony will contribute to this and to the pleasure of all its owners in the future._

 

I think subjective views are valid too......
 Even Jan can't please everybody, no matter how good his amps are (and there is no doubt that they are good)


----------



## anadin

Good to read everyone's opinions.

 I've had the X-CANv8 and it had much more Gain than the symphony.

 As I stated before the Symphony was well underpowered to my ears.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had the X-CANv8 and it had much more Gain than the symphony.

 As I stated before the Symphony was well underpowered to my ears._

 

«Underpowered» = undergained? How exactly did this manifest itself (...sonically)? After how many hours of break-in?
.


----------



## anadin

I only had it for 3 days so I can't answer that.


----------



## pjw241142

Has anybody else got any impressions - I use HD650s so would welcome feedback on the HD650/Symphony combination. My sources are Marantz CD7 & Wadia iTransport


----------



## RedWolfeXR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too much money for me. I might buy a Corda Arietta one of these days though._

 

The Cantate is a very nice amp as well, I have been quite happy with it. I decided to go with it over Arietta due to the DAC. 

 Its even more painful for Americans right now to buy stuff in Euros.

 No idea what the difference in the newer Cantate2 and Cantate is though. Specs look similar to what I remembered.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RedWolfeXR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its even more painful for Americans right now to buy stuff in Euros.

 ._

 

Nowhere near as painful as it was 6 months ago.


----------



## dadozen

Jan also takes payments in USD. I've always paid him in this currency. The only thing that happens is that sometimes he drops the price of his amps due to better EUR/USD exchange rates.


----------



## hawat

I should probably post in the source section but since there is already a huge thread about this dac/amp in this section, I ll post here.

 I was interested in this for the look and the dac fuction mostly but I' d take sound over look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, anyone have have heard the symphony compared to the recent benchmark dac1 usb/pre or to the lavry da10 ? 
 I have seen some comparison of the opera with those dacs but the symphony dac seems to be upgraded compared to the opera.

 The headamp function would be a plus of course if it beats the hd53r but I am already quite happy with the cec.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should probably post in the source section but since there is already a huge thread about this dac/amp in this section, I ll post here.

 I was interested in this for the look and the dac fuction mostly but I' d take sound over look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, anyone have have heard the symphony compared to the recent benchmark dac1 usb/pre or to the lavry da10 ? 
 I have seen some comparison of the opera with those dacs but the symphony dac seems to be upgraded compared to the opera.

 The headamp function would be a plus of course if it beats the hd53r but I am already quite happy with the cec._

 

I can only refer to the AQVOX USB 2DA DAC and for me it is a step up. As the AQVOX was also developed by Carlos Candeias and I owned different Candeias devices (HD53, CD-player) I can only say that it strongly depends on your sound taste. Candeias' devices do produce a very special sound. Jan Meiers has a less strong house sound - the older Corda, the Opera and the Symphony sound all different. For me personaly the decision was easy as the CEC HD53 sounded best with the AKG 701 and the HD650 - which I both sold - the HD 53 had to go too. I would also state that from the Opera onwards Jan Meiers amps sounded cleaner, more detailed and controlled as competitor devices.


----------



## hawat

Thank you Richer Di.
 I' ve read that comment from Iron Dreamer in one of his review about a clicking noise in the opera, is that true for the symphony as well?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The choice to use a muting relay in the DAC where most companies use a potentially sound-degrading muting transistor does result in a clicking sound (from the unit itself, not in the signal) whenever the digital input signal drops to zero (on the gaps in between CD tracks, for instance). While using headphones, I usually didn't even notice it, but it could be an issue when using speakers._


----------



## hawat

Can someone with the symphony check please? 
 I'm not sure I would appreciate being distracted by a clicking sound between each track.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Hawat,

 Please don't worry. The DAC-chip in the SYMPHONY allows for a soft-mute and thereby does not require any external muting circuitry. It does not have a relais.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Hawat,

 Please don't worry. The DAC-chip in the SYMPHONY allows for a soft-mute and thereby does not require any external muting circuitry. It does not have a relais.

 Cheers

 Jan_

 

Right, as Jan said there is no clicking at all. Regards, Reiner


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Revenge,

 Today I finally got some time looking into your problem with the lights.

 “ switching on the lights in the house (neon lights) causes droppouts and distorsions and you can actually see the blue leds blinking on the DAC side.”

 I did connect a neon light to the same power bar as my own SYMPHONY and thus was well able to reproduce this effect.

 A more close inspection using a digital oscilloscope revealed that the switching of the light caused very short and very strong multiphase voltage peaks, not only on the powerlines but also on the groundwires. Typical frequencies of these peaks in my situation were around 8 MHz (but I expect these to vary depending on the specific situation of one’s home, as the multiphase peaks do indicate reflections inside a wire of approximately 12 meters length which is approximately the length from my wall connection to the central distribution station in my house).

 A frequency of 8 MHz is very close to the typical bit frequency of CD playback (5 MHz). Since the peaks are very strong and the typical digital input signals are very low (around 0,5 V peak-peak) they result in loss of data tracking. Part of the digital audio signal simply can not be detected by the input circuitry.

 I tried using a power-filter (actually I did have two in series) but that didn’t work at all. The reason probably is, that the ground wire is also strongly contaminated. Thus filtering is ineffective.

 Why do other DACs not suffer from these interruptions?

 Any DAC derives an internal clock signal from the incoming digital data. For this it uses a circuitry that is called the PLL. This clock signal is used to set the “pace” by which the digital data are converted to analog signals.

 Normally the PLL is able to adapt relatively fast to changes in the effective sampling rate of the incoming data. This has advantages when multispeed applications are required (DJ-applications) but it has disadvantages with respect to jitter reduction. Since the PLL adapts so fastly it is not capable to reduce jitter very effectively. It can not separate jitter from other variations in speed.

 With the SYMPHONY the PLL was made much stiffer than normally is the case. It can not adapt fast to changes of the incoming sampling rate. Therefore its DAC can not be used with multispeed applications. However, the advantage is that the clock signal derived now is much less dependent on speed variations caused by jitter. Jitter is strongly reduced.

 When the SYMPHONY was designed a prototype was made that allowed a direct comparison of different settings for the PLL and it was found that the strong reduction really did result in sonic benefits. Sound simply became more fluent and less raw. That’s why I gave up multispeed applications and made the PLL as stiff as it is.

 When the digital data stream is interrupted, a conventional PLL is able to react very quickly when new data are present. The conversion process from digital data into analog data can be resumed very quickly (normally within 1..2 ms). When the interruptions are small then they may well stay unnoticed.

 Because the PLL of the SYMPHONY is very stiff it can not react very quickly to interruptions of the data stream and the DAC has to wait before data conversion can be resumed. My tests have shown that it takes the SYMPHONY around 20 ms before it can output analog data again. Such interruptions are much longer and therefore clearly noticable.

 Possible solutions:

 The only thing that really may help to prevent interruptions is to connect all lights to a wall socket that itself is connected to a different electrical “group” than the audio setup.

 Alternatively the PLL of your SYMPHONY can be changed to more conventional settings. Thus interruptions become very small. However, in my opinion sound quality will suffer. Depending on the quality of the digital source the effect of jitter can be very noticable, as my own experiments have learned me.

 Just send me an e-mail when there are more questions.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## Richter Di

Hi Jan, thank you for taking the time to investigate the phenomenon and to clarify where it comes from. I can only speak for myself but I rather like to keep the extraodrinary sound quality of the Symphony and live with a short "interruption" when I switch off my bedside lamp still listening to the music.

 I think everything is in itself a trade off. Your customers gain from the decision you took by enjoying the super sound quality for an extraordinary "low" price. I know that "low" might be misunderstood but honestly, I invested today some thousand dollar in a new CD-Player (AudioNET ART G2) not knowing wether it will realy beat your Wolfson Chip WM8471 implementation. Still I felt that even a Hoerwege modified Cambridge CD-player is no longer good enough in my little hifi temple. So if the Symphony's DAC might be actually better, I still would enjoy the top loading of the ART G2







 Last comment: My recommendation would be to put your description above on your website since it is fair to inform customers in advance about this phenomenon.

 My feeling is that your fans will from now on demonstrate there friends your jitter-free implementation by switching the lights off and on.


----------



## anoobis

Just to show my ignorance once again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was under the impression that peaks in music may require more than 13V (which the specs indicate the symphony can provide), especially for high impedance cans.

 I understand that Meier amps are high quality and high SQ, so how does this equate? Or am I completely wrong about the voltage peaks?


 Secondly, what's with the holes on the top of some of the Meier amps? I don't get it!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anoobis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Secondly, what's with the holes on the top of some of the Meier amps? I don't get it!_

 

This I can answer - ventilation!


----------



## anoobis

woohoo, an easy, non-subjective, no caveat answer on Head-Fi


----------



## onocentaur

I thought my Symphony sounded better when I covered the ventilation holes with some medical grade air filter mesh. Definitely improved the soundstage.

 [size=xx-small]Wait. Has this joke been done before?[/size]


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onocentaur* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought my Symphony sounded better when I covered the ventilation holes with some medical grade air filter mesh. Definitely improved the soundstage.

 [size=xx-small]Wait. Has this joke been done before?[/size]_

 

No, it's a new one.
 Has anybody laughed yet?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it's a new one.
 Has anybody laughed yet?_

 

I did. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are some anal-retentive nutjobs in the audiophile world who'd actually do something like this and swear they could hear a difference.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There are some anal-retentive nutjobs in the audiophile world who'd actually do something like this and swear they could hear a difference._

 

I bet you haven't tried it. Afraid to hear a difference?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bet you haven't tried it. Afraid to hear a difference?









_

 

um yes.


----------



## jma790

Wow, the soundstage from the Symphony never sounded that good!! Thanks for such a wondeful and incredible mod!!


----------



## Covenant

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, the soundstage from the Symphony never sounded that good!! Thanks for such a wondeful and incredible mod!!_

 

Just wait till you try the granite shield mod.

 Place a slab of granite on top of any source to improve SQ. This is because granite shields the source from ionised quarks from outer space interfering with the audio signal.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Oh great, I'm going to fetch Patrick82, be right back...


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Covenant* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just wait till you try the granite shield mod.

 Place a slab of granite on top of any source to improve SQ. This is because granite shields the source from ionised quarks from outer space interfering with the audio signal._

 

I didn't knew that... where can I get some medical grade granite? Also, since they are from outer space, don't you think that it should be better to cover all my house?


----------



## Covenant

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't knew that... where can I get some medical grade granite? Also, since they are from outer space, don't you think that it should be better to cover all my house?_

 

Dude, you mean you *haven't* rewired all your mains power cabling with shielded litz-braid solid core cables? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, its a good idea to hire an electrician to relocate all your mains power sockets to just below the ceiling. Electrons will pick up speed going downhill to your source and amp, resulting in a more energetic, engaging sound signature. If your power sockets are near the floor, and your audio gear is elevated, the electrons have to trudge uphill, resulting in a more strained, glarey and fatigueing sound.


----------



## Kane-DK

Not much love for the Symphony anymore?

 Are the owners to busy listening or are there not that many owners?


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kane-DK* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not much love for the Symphony anymore?

 Are the owners to busy listening or are there not that many owners?_

 

Probably folk stopped posting here when the thread ended up with the stupid drivelling of the latter posts.


----------



## Sofronitsky0423

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jirams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably folk stopped posting here when the thread ended up with the stupid drivelling of the latter posts._

 

Agreed... would still like to hear some more impressions, especially a comparison of the Symphony and Opera.


----------



## milkweg

I would never pay that much for an amp that can't even drive stereo speakers too.
 I like good quality but I also like bang-for-buck. This amp doesn't have it.


----------



## Sofronitsky0423

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would never pay that much for an amp that can't even drive stereo speakers too.
 I like good quality but I also like bang-for-buck. This amp doesn't have it._

 

It's designed to drive *headphones*... not loudspeakers. The ability to use as a preamp for loudspeakers is a great added feature. It's really an incredible value. Just would like to hear more impressions before I order mine.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sofronitsky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed... would still like to hear some more impressions, especially a comparison of the Symphony and Opera._

 

I had two Opera (one for my K-1000) and sold both since I have the Symphony. The Synphony is IMHO an ultimate headphone amp. Comparing my Stax Hybrid Amp paired with the 4070 (or sometimes the Omega II) with the Symphony paired with the Ultrasone Edition 9, both driven by the AudioNET ART G2 I can't prefer one over the other. The Symphony is drier and cleaner, more controlled, more detailed, more subtile then the Opera. For those of you looking for a real high end solution order thy Symphony. 

 I have read that some owners would like the Symphony to be louder. I can not relate to this. I on the contrary asked Jan to help me to bring the volume a little but down. At the 0 Ohm headphone jack I can only use the 2 first steps before it is to loud for me. All with the gain switch being low. I keep you posted regarding Jan's solution.


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would never pay that much for an amp that can't even drive stereo speakers too.
 I like good quality but I also like *bang-for-buck*. This amp doesn't have it._

 

Agreed - just like I would not have a Ferrari because the boot (trunk) is too small to carry the weeks groceries from the stores


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sofronitsky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's designed to drive *headphones*... not loudspeakers._

 

I know that. For that kind of money though I expect you can get a good amp that will drive both.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jirams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed - just like I would not have a Ferrari because the boot (trunk) is too small to carry the weeks groceries from the stores 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

You may think you are being smart-ass but but what you say is actually true. A Ferrari is for people with more money than sense. What's the point of owning a very fast status symbol car you can't legally drive over the speed limit, and like you say, has no room to carry the groceries in?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know that. For that kind of money though I expect you can get a good amp that will drive both._

 

I'm sure you can. But not this particular one. 

 I, for one, want something dedicated to one purpose for as much sonic purity as I can get for that amount of $$$.


----------



## milkweg

I look inside an amp costing $500.00 and an amp costing $2,000.00 and I just fail to see, or hear, $1500.00 more in value.


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look inside an amp costing $500.00 and an amp costing $2,000.00 and I just fail to see, or hear, $1500.00 more in value._

 


 That's just because you're still not addicted enough. Consider yourself lucky, for now....


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look inside an amp costing $500.00 and an amp costing $2,000.00 and I just fail to see, or hear, $1500.00 more in value._

 

So now we know you fail to see or hear the difference.
 Good for you.
 Your point being?????


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look inside an amp costing $500.00 and an amp costing $2,000.00 and I just fail to see, or hear, $1500.00 more in value._

 

You're not going to if bang for buck is what you're interested in...but can you really argue that your $500 amp is worth $500 more than just using the stock headphone output on your iPod or laptop or whatever? 

 The thing that separates the average headphone or audio nut in general from the general public is that we're aware there's a difference and are willing to pay a significant amount to obtain it. They're happy with an iPod and the stock earbuds.


----------



## lmmo

how does the Symphony works with the HD650 phones?

 it seems that most people aren't thrilled about this dac/amp. why?

 what are the good alternatives around 1.000 EUR?

 thanks!


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmmo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how does the Symphony works with the HD650 phones?_

 

As Jan Meier is a fan of the Sennheiser HD 650 and also uses them in the development phase I am pretty sure that they will be a perfect match.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:


 I look inside an amp costing $500.00 and an amp costing $2,000.00 and I just fail to see, or hear, $1500.00 more in value. 
 

You in no position to "see" cause you know little about the amps. So, you cannot appreciate goodness.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 The thing that separates the average headphone or audio nut in general from the general public is that we're aware there's a difference and are willing to pay a significant amount to obtain it. They're happy with an iPod and the stock earbuds._

 

Well, I would never be happy with an iPod and stock earbuds but there is such a thing as diminishing returns. $1700.00 for speaker amp with decent headphone out = good, $1700.00 for just a headphone amp = bad.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You in no position to "see" cause you know little about the amps. So, you cannot appreciate goodness._

 

Bunch of resistors, capacitors, printboard circuits, PSU and a few dollars worth of wire is all there is in any amp. Nothing even approaching $2000.00 worth of kit. Probably the most expensive part to the manufacturer is the fancy over sized case with their fancy important sounding logo on it.


----------



## Wilashort

Agreed (i said for all those overpriced amps out there...).
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bunch of resistors, capacitors, printboard circuits, PSU and a few dollars worth of wire is all there is in any amp. Nothing even approaching $2000.00 worth of kit. Probably the most expensive part to the manufacturer is the fancy over sized case with their fancy important sounding logo on it._


----------



## milkweg

I know, I'm just playing devil's advocate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, it has to be said, I look at the internals of some of those budget portable amps selling for $100+ and all I see is maybe five bucks worth of parts inside them.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there an amp that is not overpriced ?


----------



## Jan Meier

"Bunch of resistors, capacitors, printboard circuits, PSU and a few dollars worth of wire is all there is in any amp."






 ????

 And this is just the top side of the PCB. Most of the analog amplification circuitry is at the bottom side!!!!

 Jan


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know, I'm just playing devil's advocate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Still, it has to be said, I look at the internals of some of those budget portable amps selling for $100+ and all I see is maybe five bucks worth of parts inside them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Looks like you know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know, I'm just playing devil's advocate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, it has to be said, I look at the internals of some of those budget portable amps selling for $100+ and all I see is maybe five bucks worth of parts inside them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Tells more about you than about the amp in question.....


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Bunch of resistors, capacitors, printboard circuits, PSU and a few dollars worth of wire is all there is in any amp."






 ????

 And this is just the top side of the PCB. Most of the analog amplification circuitry is at the bottom side!!!!

 Jan_

 

Nice clean layout. I'll give you $200.00 USD for it.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jirams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like you know the cost of everything and the value of nothing._

 

<existentialist mode on>

 No material object has any value when you look at the big picture.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bunch of resistors, capacitors, printboard circuits, PSU and a few dollars worth of wire is all there is in any amp. Nothing even approaching $2000.00 worth of kit. Probably the most expensive part to the manufacturer is the fancy over sized case with their fancy important sounding logo on it._

 

 Oh Yeah, I suppose you just go to the local electronic store, buy them and then throw all of them inside a case (or maybe a box) and you have a nice sounding amp. That's how it works, right?
 I suppose there aren't any extra cost for research and development, ensambling, the knowldege involved in the production, rights, taxes... nothing, right?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice clean layout. I'll give you $200.00 USD for it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Heh. Let us all stop feeding the troll, myself included.


----------



## milkweg

Oh, well, lack of humor is thick around here.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, well, lack of humor is thick around here._

 

Quite honestly, I really do not see the humour in your posts. Rather it is more like a mean, ill-willed attack on what I see as a decent, good-value product. 

 If this is not your intention, it would be good to the community if you can clarify. 

 F. Lo


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, well, lack of humor is thick around here._

 

This thread would be better if you stop your humor. You all talk ridiculous things here.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quite honestly, I really do not see the humour in your posts. Rather it is more like a mean, ill-willed attack on what I see as a decent, good-value product. 

 If this is not your intention, it would be good to the community if you can clarify. 

 F. Lo_

 

Well, the truth is in the jest, I admit. My Onkyo receiver has far more complex circuitry and parts than any headphone amp and is just as well put together, built in a similar Chinese factory by laborers getting paid next to nothing. Now explain to me how you can possibly perceive a $1700.00 headphone amp that ouputs just mw to have even close to the same value as my Onkyo receiver that cost $400.00 and has 7 channels of 75w output, does a multitude of DSPs and even has an AM/FM tuner . The plain fact is that it doesn't. There's your explanation and is the only one I am posting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 p.s. I was not attacking any one product specifically. My comments were a friendly observation on overpriced audio gear in general.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh. Let us all stop feeding the troll, myself included._

 

I actually think he's not even trolling on purpose, but out of sheer ignorance.
 Sad.


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the truth is in the jest, I admit. My Onkyo receiver has far more complex circuitry and parts than any headphone amp and is just as well put together, built in a similar Chinese factory by laborers getting paid next to nothing. Now explain to me how you can possibly perceive a $1700.00 headphone amp that ouputs just mw to have even close to the same value as my Onkyo receiver that cost $400.00 and has 7 channels of 75w output, does a multitude of DSPs and even has an AM/FM tuner . The plain fact is that it doesn't. There's your explanation and is the only one I am posting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 p.s. I was not attacking any one product specifically. My comments were a friendly observation on overpriced audio gear in general._

 

Don't try to dress your bitter and twisted comments up with the virtues of humour or friendship.


----------



## capitano

I was one of the first buyers of the Symphony.
 I liked it immediately and I like it every day more.
 With my Sennheiser HD650 Apuresound recabled is beatiful matched.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the truth is in the jest, I admit. My Onkyo receiver has far more complex circuitry and parts than any headphone amp and is just as well put together, built in a similar Chinese factory by laborers getting paid next to nothing. Now explain to me how you can possibly perceive a $1700.00 headphone amp that ouputs just mw to have even close to the same value as my Onkyo receiver that cost $400.00 and has 7 channels of 75w output, does a multitude of DSPs and even has an AM/FM tuner . The plain fact is that it doesn't. There's your explanation and is the only one I am posting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 p.s. I was not attacking any one product specifically. My comments were a friendly observation on overpriced audio gear in general._

 

The specific needs to drive a variety of headphones ranging from 25-600 ohms exceptionally well are not addressed in the Onkyo, which is primarily intended to drive speakers with different requirements and properties - and adapting the Onkyo to also drive headphones is not the main focus of Onkyo's development team.

 Quality of internal components will also play a role, as does the actual circuit layout - we know the sound changes with the slightest change in layout or components, so don't expect two similarly "busy looking" circuit designs to sound the same.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the truth is in the jest, I admit. My Onkyo receiver has far more complex circuitry and parts than any headphone amp and is just as well put together, built in a similar Chinese factory by laborers getting paid next to nothing. Now explain to me how you can possibly perceive a $1700.00 headphone amp that ouputs just mw to have even close to the same value as my Onkyo receiver that cost $400.00 and has 7 channels of 75w output, does a multitude of DSPs and even has an AM/FM tuner . The plain fact is that it doesn't. There's your explanation and is the only one I am posting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Massive economies of scale in every aspect. Ask Jan who else works on design, R&D, and prototyping of his stuff. Ask Jan how many products he has to sell in order to support himself for a year. Onkyo is a large corporation in which your receiver is just one product, and they make tons of them.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The specific needs to drive a variety of headphones ranging from 25-600 ohms exceptionally well are not addressed in the Onkyo, which is primarily intended to drive speakers with different requirements and properties - and adapting the Onkyo to also drive headphones is not the main focus of Onkyo's development team.

 Quality of internal components will also play a role, as does the actual circuit layout - we know the sound changes with the slightest change in layout or components, so don't expect two similarly "busy looking" circuit designs to sound the same._

 

That was not my point at all. Although the Onkyo is far from bad for headphone use too. I am specifically addressing cost of parts and features vs price charged. And the only ignorant ones here are those that think a headphone amp is actually worth $1700.00+. I'll leave it at that so that those with nothing of value to add besides personal attacks can feel free to make more personal attacks because I won't be replying to any more posts in this thread, except the one below. Hostile people are not my kind of people.


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Massive economies of scale in every aspect. Ask Jan who else works on design, R&D, and prototyping of his stuff. Ask Jan how many products he has to sell in order to support himself for a year. Onkyo is a large corporation in which your receiver is just one product, and they make tons of them._

 

I don't know where he sources his parts from but I expect Asia just like any other audio manufacturer does. He also uses cheap Chinese labor so his cost is no more there either. I will concede that his product is niche and research costs are higher due to length of time required considering he is a small team. I expect if Onkyo did make the exact same product it would be the exact same quality but cost far less.


----------



## GUINNE55

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know where he sources his parts from but I expect Asia just like any other audio manufacturer does. He also uses cheap Chinese labor so his cost is no more there either. I will concede that his product is niche and research costs are higher due to length of time required considering he is a small team. I expect if Onkyo did make the exact same product it would be the exact same quality but cost far less._

 

I seriously find you distasteful on a personal level. The last 5 pages in this thread have been filled with your personal attacks on someone's livelihood for the soul purpose of instigating an argument with others.


----------



## luukas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the only ignorant ones here are those that think a headphone amp is actually worth $1700.00+._

 

Perhaps. But this particular amp seems to cost $1310, and it includes a formidable DAC and preamp. While DAC's can be had for anything between $50 and $5000, a simple stereo preamp can easily cost $400. 

 For me, the Symphony is worth its asking price. And I'm not even using the headphone outputs (yet).


----------



## NajoBB

milkweg, there are some famous manufacturer(s) here that deserve bashing for their price/quality ratio (do a little research and you'll find portables that cost 30-50$ to made and cost ~450$, not to talk about home amps) and Jan is certainly not one of them. If i ever buy one of the more expensive amps or a portable he is one of the few guys i could give my money. I don't have much experience in amps but I'm a electronic technician and i can see if someone's ripping me off or not. So go after those others if you want to achieve something useful.


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

This thread has gone way off track, but if possible I would love to hear some more actual reviews and opinions of this amp as I was seriously considering purchasing one.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was not my point at all. Although the Onkyo is far from bad for headphone use too. I am specifically addressing cost of parts and features vs price charged. And the only ignorant ones here are those that think a headphone amp is actually worth $1700.00+. I'll leave it at that so that those with nothing of value to add besides personal attacks can feel free to make more personal attacks because I won't be replying to any more posts in this thread, except the one below. Hostile people are not my kind of people._

 

So are you now going to go into every thread that discusses an expensive amplifier and explain to the rest of us how stupid we are for buying these overpriced pieces of gear because you believe you know what's good for us? Your posts sound a lot like that of a troll to me. You made your point, now please move on. You are adding nothing to the discussion. I think we get it, please do not continue.


----------



## Richter Di

After hearing now several weeks with the Symphony (mainly as headphone amplifier only), the Symphony marks in my experience the cleanest and most transparent headphone amplifier I have ever heard. This said, not everyone will welcome this as 
 A) you immedeately hear low production quality and distortions of CDs. (very unfortunate if you like this CD)
 B) if you use listening to music direcly before sleeping and maybe even falling asleep while you were listening to music e.g. via the Corda Opera headphone amplifier, you will find yourself now lying in your bed completely awake. As the Symphony presents music so honestly I keep attached to the emotionality of the music.
 C) using music as background noise (like in an elevator) is not possible for me anymore. The musical presentation really involves and takes the complete attention. 

 So for all those of you who are looking for their final headphone amplifier the Corda Symphony is IMHO a clear recommendation.


----------



## Ben Diss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Richter Di* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After hearing now several weeks with the Symphony (mainly as headphone amplifier only), the Symphony marks in my experience the cleanest and most transparent headphone amplifier I have ever heard. This said, not everyone will welcome this as 
 A) you immedeately hear low production quality and distortions of CDs. (very unfortunate if you like this CD)
 B) if you use listening to music direcly before sleeping and maybe even falling asleep while you were listening to music e.g. via the Corda Opera headphone amplifier, you will find yourself now lying in your bed completely awake. As the Symphony presents music so honestly I keep attached to the emotionality of the music.
 C) using music as background noise (like in an elevator) is not possible for me anymore. The musical presentation really involves and takes the complete attention. 

 So for all those of you who are looking for their final headphone amplifier the Corda Symphony is IMHO a clear recommendation._

 

Have you listened to the Opera as well? If so, can you compare the two?


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ben Diss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you listened to the Opera as well? If so, can you compare the two?_

 

Sure, happy to do so. I owned actually two of them. The prototype and serial-nr. 001. Both are now sold as the Symphony is IMHO clearly better. 

 Both amplifiers introduced the balanced ground technique to the Corda series and that makes them for those of us who actually do not want to recable their headphones an advantageous step.

 Two main characteristics: The Opera has a certain smotheness which makes it very relaxing. On the other side the transparency of the Symphony is clearly unique.

 If you take for example a female voice. With the Opera you hear the voice, sort of in a "normal" way. With the Symphony you are close to hear the vocal cords of the singer. 

 Hope that helps?


----------



## Ben Diss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Richter Di* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, happy to do so. I owned actually two of them. The prototype and serial-nr. 001. Both are now sold as the Symphony is IMHO clearly better. 

 Both amplifiers introduced the balanced ground technique to the Corda series and that makes them for those of us who actually do not want to recable their headphones an advantageous step.

 Two main characteristics: The Opera has a certain smotheness which makes it very relaxing. On the other side the transparency of the Symphony is clearly unique.

 If you take for example a female voice. With the Opera you hear the voice, sort of in a "normal" way. With the Symphony you are close to hear the vocal cords of the singer. 

 Hope that helps?_

 

That helps a bunch. Thanks for the comparison.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone compared it to Rudistor RPX-33 ?


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Richter Di* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After hearing now several weeks with the Symphony (mainly as headphone amplifier only), the Symphony marks in my experience the cleanest and most transparent headphone amplifier I have ever heard._

 

I very much agree with this statement. Whereas the Opera was the best compromise among the best other amps I've heard so far (HeadCode DM, DynaMight, Prehead MkI and MkII, Aria), in some criteria one or the other amp was better. Now the Symphony is at least as good with every single criterion -- such as transparency, clarity, resolution, detail, soundstage, low-frequency extension and power... -- and as a whole clearly the best amp I've heard in my setup. Also it is sonically clearly closest to my all-time reference, the direct connection to the DAC2's line out, and even surpasses it in almost every regard. No other amp has managed this. For me it is a state-of-the-art product in terms of neutrality and accuracy. It doesn't offer particularly spectacular or euphonic or «analogue» sound, but its ability to convey the whole information from the source is nevertheless downright spectacular. At least to me. The chapter headphone amp is definitely closed to me -- at least as long as Jan doesn't launch a follower. 

 I wish I could find the energy to write a detailed review. 
.


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

I went ahead and sold my Aria, and my Opera and ordered a Symphony that shipped on Friday. I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

A question for Jazz and Richter. You both seem to share very similar views on the sound of the Symphony. The impression I get from your comments is that the sound is almost clinical (which is what I'm looking for) without being sterile or boring, is that an accurate interpretation?

 What type of music have you been listening to, and could you say if there are any situations where the transparency of the Symphony made a recording difficult to listen to, or a recording where you felt the Symphony truly shined.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went ahead and sold my Aria, and my Opera and ordered a Symphony that shipped on Friday. I'm looking forward to it._

 

Congratulations. Please give the Symphony at least 50 hours of burn-in before assessing it (if possible with something like the "IsoTek - Full System Enhancer & Rejuvenation Disc" - highgly recommende, if not, some complex classical music)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A question for Jazz and Richter._

 

Maybe I give it a first start.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What type of music have you been listening to, ..._

 

My music taste is very broad ...
*from classical music* esp. Bach (esp. Goldberg Variations), Mozart (esp. Magic Flute)
*to Jazz *e.g. Brad Mehldau Trio, EST, Jan Johansson, Tord Gustavsen Trio
*to Pop *e.g. Anja Garbarek, Emiliana Torrini, Susanne Abbuehl, Postal Service, Youngblood Brass Band
*to Electronic* stuff e.g. Agoria, Apparat, Gorilaz, Kreidler, Sketch Show. 
 to what I call *Avantgarde or Minimalism* e.g. Books, Kammerflimmer Kollektiv, Claude Chalhoub

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The impression I get from your comments is that the sound is almost clinical (which is what I'm looking for) without being sterile or boring, is that an accurate interpretation?_

 

"Clinical" is a word which provokes in me the feeling of a hospital and therefore it has a certain smell, so unfortunately I can not relate to this word. The sound is surely not boring or sterile. As long as your source transports the information in a musical way the Symphony will deliver exactly the quality of the record.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... and could you say if there are any situations where the transparency of the Symphony made a recording difficult to listen to, or a recording where you felt the Symphony truly shined._

 

So when the Symphony is delivering exactly the input, there is no recording which shines more because all well produced shine!

 Still, this said, if you take e.g. the new record of Maria Mena "Cause And Effect", this is a highly compressed record and as the mastering engineers where trying to make it as loud as possible they overdid it and now you have heavy distortions (e.g. first Song 1:12; 2:37 - 2:38; 2:59; 3:12-3:14). While with an ordinary headphone system (e.g. iPod 160 GB with audio-technica ATH-ESW10) you might think there is a kind of crackling, you clearly hear ALL distortions with the Symphony.


----------



## scootermafia

I'm trying to encourage my friend who is looking for a headamp/dac to get the Symphony once he can afford it. What I am sold on is its utility - besides its many, many features...it really is a nice analog preamp as well as a nice standalone DAC. The switch on the front switches it between being a preamp and being a headphone amp. And the DAC can pass its sound through...5 inputs, 2 analog inputs and opti/coax/usb...he likes the fact that he can use this with his power amp and speakers as well as his headphones.

 He does not like the idea of buying a product that he will never have any use for outside of headphone listening.


----------



## Headphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone compared it to Rudistor RPX-33 ?_

 

x2, I'd like to know too.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A question for Jazz and Richter. You both seem to share very similar views on the sound of the Symphony. The impression I get from your comments is that the sound is almost clinical (which is what I'm looking for) without being sterile or boring, is that an accurate interpretation?_

 

Well, «clinical» would actually be the same as sterile, so I don't find it an adequate characterization, the more so as the Symphony doesn't sound cold or analytical. But it just as little sounds particularly warm. To my ears it just sounds «neutral», which on the other hand doesn't equate with boring at all -- quite the opposite, in view of the detail richness and the pronounced expressivity. 


  Quote:


 _What type of music have you been listening to, and could you say if there are any situations where the transparency of the Symphony made a recording difficult to listen to, or a recording where you felt the Symphony truly shined._ 
 

I listen to classical, jazz and pop/rock/electronica. So I need an amp without specific coloration. Despite the high resolution and detail the Symphony is astonishingly forgiving with bad recordings. It doesn't make them good, but it doesn't enhance sonic flaws such as distortion. They are so obvious that you can hear «through» them and don't have to further occupy yourself with them. This makes the Symphony a downright ear-friendly amp in my book.
.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went ahead and sold my Aria, and my Opera and ordered a Symphony that shipped on Friday. I'm looking forward to it._

 

Congrats on your decision! But give it at least 200 hours of burn-in. Mine reached maybe 95% of its full sonic potential not before 210 hours.
.


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

Sorry, I guess clinical was a poor choice, and apparently incorrect use of the word. I thought it's definition of "direct observation" would apply here, I guess I thought it meant something similar to analytical, but looking at the definitions now I see I probably should have made sure I understood all it's possible meanings which I obviously didn't, before using it.

 At least I know I've been using the word incorrectly for many years now.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I guess clinical was a poor choice, and apparently incorrect use of the word. I thought it's definition of "direct observation" would apply here, I guess I thought it meant something similar to analytical, but looking at the definitions now I see I probably should have made sure I understood all it's possible meanings which I obviously didn't, before using it.

 At least I know I've been using the word incorrectly for many years now._

 

Some audiophile terms are a bit vague and ambiguous anyway. «Analytical» could actually be a positive characteristic synonymous with accurate or precise, but it's predominantly used for a sound that enhances detail in an artificial, inorganic way.
.


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some audiophile terms are a bit vague and ambiguous anyway. «Analytical» could actually be a positive characteristic synonymous with accurate or precise, but it's predominantly used for a sound that enhances detail in an artificial, inorganic way.
._

 

Thanks Jazz. Analytical in as positive characteristic sounds like what I was trying to say. 

 About the burn in period, I exchanged a few emails with Dr. Meier on the subject and he reiterated the need for at least 200 hours of break in by using the digital section with headphones plugged in at a medium volume. 

 All the Meier gear I'd owned in the past had been purchased used, and was already broken in. I figure I can just let it run for 200 hours straight, unlike I had done with tube amps in the past since I don't need to worry about tubes with the Symphony though I don't imagine there is any difference between breaking in an amp all at once as opposed to over a longer period of time, right?


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I figure I can just let it run for 200 hours straight, unlike I had done with tube amps in the past since I don't need to worry about tubes with the Symphony though I don't imagine there is any difference between breaking in an amp all at once as opposed to over a longer period of time, right?_

 

No, it doesn't matter. You could simply listen to it -- just take care not to form your opinion before at least 200 hours of operation. And don't expect too much from the first few listening sessions! 
.


----------



## cpasglop

I am totally satisfied with this amp. 

 Mine has now reached 100 hours of burn-in. The sound of the DAC is now clear, detailed, soft and natural (usb or spdif inputs, crossfeed on). 

 It is true that the first listenings were a little bit disappointing, but the sound quality has improved quickly during the first thirty hours. I never thought that burn-in was so important! 

 I have no problem of "power" (gain) with my K701 and the low impedance output : I use the volume dial from eight to twelve o'clock and never switch to the high-gain setting ...


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cpasglop* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am totally satisfied with this amp. 

 Mine has now reached 100 hours of burn-in. The sound of the DAC is now clear, detailed, soft and natural (usb or spdif inputs, crossfeed on). 

 It is true that the first listenings were a little bit disappointing, but the sound quality has improved quickly during the first thirty hours. I never thought that burn-in was so important! 

 I have no problem of "power" (gain) with my K701 and the low impedance output : I use the volume dial from eight to twelve o'clock and never switch to the high-gain setting ..._

 

I have heard that the high-gain setting is the most "pure" amp gain setting, in general. Is that true? I can't really tell a difference on my own.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have heard that the high-gain setting is the most "pure" amp gain setting, in general. Is that true? I can't really tell a difference on my own._

 

Its very difficult to compare as I never reach exactly the same volume after setting the gain to high. But generally I could not find major difference. It seems that the accoustic noise (maybe from the recording) gets louder.


----------



## fkclo

Sometime in November I wrote about my initial impressions of the Symphony

My 270 hours Journey with Symphony

 Time flies. I have now clocked over 430 hours on my Symphony and would like to say it has got better. Not day or night or in any big way, but what you may expected out of a "mature" component and a deeper understanding of its behaviour. With the whole host of features, solid build quality and superb sound the Symphony continues to represent very good value.

 I was asked by a number of members how the Symphony compares with the Grace Design M902 (since I owned both). I can understand why as both seems to share a very similar feature set and target at a similar group of needs in the circle.

 I was thinking of putting forward a full review of the Grace Design M902 vs. the Symphony but never find the time to complete it. I think I have spent enough hours on both. So, instead of a full comparison let's just look at the obvious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The feature set of M902 and Symphony is very similar. My M902 has single end output only so it this regard the preamp function is almost similar. The M902 does accept balanced input ( and additional single end input) while both inputs on the Symphony are single-end only. For USB input, the Symphony uses Type B connector which is more "standard" than the "mini" connector being used on the M902. If one decides to go for a upscale USB cable (which, to my ears, does change the sound I hear), it is worth noting most come with the standard USB connectors.

 The obvious difference between the two are :-

The M902 is more compact. The Symphony looks big and feels heavy in comparison
The M902 has a remote which is useful in some occasions. But this is another $115 option which adds to the base price.
The Symphony DAC is slightly better sounding to me ( SPDIF vs. SPDIF) - being more resolved but not edgy. The M902 DAC sounds "soft" by comparison. 
The Symphony USB DAC is noticeably better, and comes with various filter choices for fine tuning of the sound you want
The headphone amp of the Symphony sound more neutral and have a lower noise floor (actually both amps are very black background so the differentiation is not that easy). I am sure the power supply of Symphony is better.
The headphone amp of the Symphony is more resolving and provide a more neutral sound, but the M902 is a bit smoother (or rounded) in general
The Gain switch and cross-feed selector of the Symphony is more accessible. Whereas on the M902 one will have to dig into the menu to locate the settings ( and it is not sticky - which means once you power-off the M902, it will default back to low gain, and CF off)
I use the M902 in low gain all the time and can drive most headphones well (with volume set at 65 / 99) I have to use the high gain of the Symphony most of the time except very low impedance headphone (with volume set less than 12 o'clock most of the time)
M902 offers separate volume control for line out vs headphone out which is useful if one is using the unit as a pre-amp as well.
The Symphony sounds more airy and imaging is more precise and real
The Symphony sounds extremely well with classical instruments - violins, piano especially.
The M902 sounds impressive with jazz vocals - feels intimate

 For new purchases, the M902 will cost you around US$1,450 to 1,600, not including the remote and shipment, whereas the Symphony cost around $1,250 shipped. Of course, import tax can make or break the "best buy" evaluation. For those of us that do not need to worry about import tax or duties, the Symphony is obviously a better buy. 

 F. Lo


----------



## Skylab

Nice analysis, F. Lo!


----------



## Drosera

Thank you for these detailed comments on the Symphony. It's nice to have these extensive impressions, especially from someone who's used to listening to really high-end gear.

 It is surprising to me that so few people have reported on the Symphony. Would that be a reflection of somewhat disappointing sales-figures? It certainly seems to have created far less of a stir and following than the Opera did some time ago.


----------



## Skylab

I'm not sure what actual sales have been like, but there is no doubt that *especially* in the current economic climate, the market for $1300 headphone amps is pretty small. When the Opera was launched, the world was in a very good economy. I'm not sure how much impact this has, but I have to imagine it has some.

 By all accounts, the Symphony is a better amp than the Opera, which I thought was a terrific amp.


----------



## Richter Di

F. Lo, thanks for the comparison. So I will not have to buy Grace to learn more.


----------



## mirh

I wish I could afford symphony...
 (I realy need a good DAC for my Squeezebox)
 I would like to change my iBasso D3 cause it doesen't play with my Squeezebox at all. There is sth. with synergy with them cause separately they do good job but together sound awful (lot of distortion).
 I've changed Squeezebox PSU for much beter linear one - sound is much better but there are still distortions when loudnes is > half position.
 I'm thinking about Arietta. I was told (Mr. Meier) than Cantate is more expensive but it has better amp.
 I don't need another USB DAC I just need good amp for my SB so I'm not sure if 2x more EUR for Cantate is worth for? (I will still need DAC for SB which lacks USB out)


----------



## Vandal

Lovely looking piece of equipment. Is this one of the better SS amps around? Phew! 1700$ is costly


----------



## Wilashort

In reality the price is *[size=x-small]$1310 [/size]*(..as appear in the page...). But it is better than getting overpriced headphones/cables (which is ridiculous) for almost the same price. And yes, they look very beautiful, and have a lot of funtions...
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vandal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lovely looking piece of equipment. Is this one of the better SS amps around? Phew! 1700$ is costly_


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## kbug

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wilashort* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In reality the price is *[size=x-small]$1310 [/size]*(..as appear in the page...). But it is better than getting overpriced headphones/cables (which is ridiculous) for almost the same price. And yes, they look very beautiful, and have a lot of funtions..._

 

I totally agree. I cannot understand why those cables are so expensive.


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## milkweg

Why not? There are esoteric speaker cables out there that cost $10,000.00. What's sad is that there are actually people out there that will pay that price for a length of copper and silver wire. What's even sadder though is that I can't afford that even if I wanted to.


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## Rameish

Any issues using the Symphony with the Wadia iTransport? Anyone using the Corda Symphony as a Pre-Amp?


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## WittyzTH

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kbug* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I totally agree. I cannot understand why those cables are so expensive._

 

I did agree with this statement before I got the proper setups that can show the difference of cables.

 However, I don't want to spend much money on it too.


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## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rameish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any issues using the Symphony with the Wadia iTransport? Anyone using the Corda Symphony as a Pre-Amp?_

 

My Wadia iTransport is currently for some modifications at Audiocom. Before I used the Symphony quite often as a DAC for the iTransport. To my feeling he does a very good job.


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## ETK

Can someone share the listening difference between different DAC mode , and the Album that can show the difference ?

 My symphony is now running for 2 weeks. It's a great AMP. Just I can't tell the difference during blind test for the DAC modes.

 I just use the black power cable comes with Sympohny. Should I upgrade my power connection ?


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## revenge

You should probably upgrade your headphones.
 With both switches on the lowermost position you get the most detailed and transparent (but also a tad thin, digital and aggresive to my ears) sound the DAC is capable of. The middle position for both switches probably offers the best balance between warmth, full body and resolution. Still, the lowermost setting is a bit more transparent and revealing. I never use the uppermost setting as it trades too much detail and air for warmth. 
 Lately I am using quite often the middle position for the left switch and the lowermost position for the right. It's just a bit fuller, bass-wise, for my GS1000, than the middle setting for both.
 Of course, it is all a question of music, headphones and, especially, ears involved. What seems thin and aggresive to me using GS1000 might sound like the warmest, fullest sound someone else can get from HD650 or any other headphone. One thing is for sure though: although I wouldn't call it a night and day difference, the different settings *do make a change*.


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## revenge

Regarding a previous question, I wouldn't say iTransport is the best source money can buy for Symphony, or for any high end DAC for that matter. While providing more than decent SPDIF output for decent midrange gear, it's by no means in the same league with Symphony in terms of build and sound quality. I'd rather call it the best thing ever happened to Ipod. If you absolutely want the best sound, money being no issue, from an Ipod, this is the only way to get it. Plus an upgraded PSU, plus further optional upgrades. But if you are simply interested in the best source SQ-wise, a dedicated transport or a RME soundcard are better choices. Just my opinion.


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## ETK

Thanks 'revenge' 's sharing.
 I'm using K701 with Symphony. I'll try to give my ears more training. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , or get an GSK to test on my system.


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## revenge

The A/B blind test is not always the best way to do it. Forget about purists and objective, definitive methods of assessment. You are human and, as such, it takes time to evaluate, time to love, time to hate, especially if you are inexperienced. So I would rather advise you to go for a setting (and, to make things easier, I would suggest the extremes, either the upermost, or the lowermost position), use it for a few days until you get very well used to the sound, and then go through the same music using the opposite setting. Thus the changes in sound should become apparent. For me they are instantly obvious, although, I have to give you that, subtle, on both GS1000 and AH-D7000. Because you've mentioned the cables, some people spend a lot of money on cables for less...


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## Sieg9198

Did anyone tried the Corda Symphony with the SA5000?? I'm really interested in it.

 How does the amp compared to like say GS-1 or even GS-X??


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## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did anyone tried the Corda Symphony with the SA5000?? I'm really interested in it.

 How does the amp compared to like say GS-1 or even GS-X?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry, can't help with any of your questions. I can only state that from all the headphone amps I have heard/owned (and this where a lot) this one is the best.


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## revenge

I understand the desire to know-before-you-try-it but it's really impossible. It's not only a question of music, source, cans but, the most important factor, it's down to your personal taste. No one, and I mean no one, can predict if you are going to like or hate a combo. If you ask an experienced audiophile while you're struggling with your first pair of HD555, you will think the thing is heaven while he might tell you that it's pure, average garbage. And the other way around. You have to take into account a million variables that make it almost impossible to replicate a personal audio experience. Share, yes. But nothing more. 
 Having said that, and because I've owned most of Mr Meier's amps that matter in my book, starting with the Prehead, I can only tell you this is a great SS amp, probably one of the best you can buy at the moment. Concerning can matching, this is a Meier amp all the way which means great versatility: two headphone outputs with subtle but different sound signatures (one warmer, one a tad more transparent and detailed), a gain switch, a crossfeed...I'm sure you can find better combos for specific headphones but, as a whole, I have yet to find a headphone amplifier to beat the ability of Mr Jan's toys to drive *anything* with grace. No matter what cans are you using, in no matter what setup, you can be sure a high end amplifier of Mr Meier will deliver. That's why, owning a lot of cans over time, I've always had one of his creations on my desk. 
 Now, about Symphony, it's probably the most detailed, transparent and yet lush sounding amplifier he has ever built. If there are better, they have to cost thousands. 
 But there are buts. Being a SS amp, it's probably not the best match for the brightest, thin sounding cans. And if you plan using the DAC section as well, multiply that statement threefold. Not that the DAC itself is not great. Actually it's a lot better than I would have expected. To be honest, I would have been completely satisfied with the amplifier alone at 1000 euros, so considering the DAC section you get as an extra, this is trully a bargain. But still I have to warn you that if you thought a Benchmark or a Lavry was thin sounding, too cold or too analytical, then you will probably find this DAC even colder, thinner and more analytical than the aforementioned. A/B-ing the incorporated DAC with my Lavry connected to the line in, using AH-D7000 and GS1000, I find Lavry, without a shadow of a doubt, more rounded, more euphonic, a little more musical, better extended in the bass frequency (the music has a bit more body) and, as a whole, a more pleasing experience *for me*. But, to Mr Meier's glory, I have to say that as far as resolution, soundstage and transparency are concerned, his little DAC is every bit as good, if not better, than any of the professional 1K DAC's on the market. 
 And now the things I am not very happy about: I still find at times the gain of the amplifier, even on low impedance headphones, a little less than desired. As far as the gain is concerned, compared to my old and beloved Prehead, Symphony is miles away and not in a good way... Where the Prehead flies high, driving even the most power hungry headphones with charming ease and authority, Symphony seems to struggle a little bit, and at times even more than a little bit. If, for instance, you are listening to a really quiet passage and you feel like cranking up the volume, you might be left with nothing but...a really quiet passage. So, to give satisfaction to both sides on this thread, I think both of them are right. On one hand Symphony is trully a great piece of hifi engineering with outstanding resolution, transparency and one of the lowest noise floors I've ever experienced in a headphone amplifier to date. But all this comes with the price of an average (or even below average) gain which, depending on your cans, personal taste and levels of listening, might or might not fit the bill. 
 The other thing worth mentioning is that my DAC, I don't know about others, suffers from frequent dropouts. And I mean frequent! Apparently this has to do with an engineering decision concerning high jitter rejection and a better sound altogether. But if you work like me in a crowded place with lots of neon lights switched on and off all the time, you might be getting a little frustrated here. Also it's probably an impedance missmatch but if I feed a pair of Audioengine A2 from the lineout of Symphony, set the volume halfway on both Symphony and A2 and play some dynamic passages, the same thing happens: clipping and dropouts in the DAC section (not the amp, as it's just the lights on the DAC side that are flashing; I've also tried using my Lavry as a DAC with the amp/preamp section of Symphony feeding the A2s which, in this setting, work flawlessly) so keep this in mind if you plan using Symphony, like me, at your work place, feeding a pair of cans and an average pair of monitors/computer speaker.


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## anadin

I was one of the first people to own the Corda Symphony and after a fews days I sent it back for a refund.

 revenge you are spot on with your analysis of the Symphony.

 It didn't exceed my expectations and at £1100 it should of done.


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## Sieg9198

Actually I have zero experience with Meier's Amps, I dont really have a clue of his's amps sound signature. From some of the Opera reviews I read I would assume it's a warm and lush sounding amp. Which is what I'm AVOIDING now.

 I never felt the SA5000 was bright or thin. Right now I'm using it straight out of the Pico DAC/Amp and I liked it VERY much, since I love this pairing, I'm thinking of going to a full size amp - the GS-1 to take it further.

 Then I stumbled upon this amp, judging from some of you said that it's neutral, detailed, I think it fitted my bills nicely. I want an analytical, neutral amp with very good resolution and soundstage.

 So the question is, judging from my criteria. Is this amp what I'm looking for?? And if the DAC is better than the Pico's then I would be even more grateful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 @revenge
 Actually I experience similar condition with you too, with my pico. Most of the time when I change the speed of my table fan, or when my mom turns off the fluorescent light in the living room. I experience cut out in my music, it recovers in less than a second but sometimes it drops out totally until I have to restart my foobar.


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## revenge

It would be unthoughtful and unfair to compare a portable amp, any portable amp, with Symphony. There is no comparison here. While Symphony plays in the big league as a trully hifi piece of equipment, with all the qualities you would expect from a headphone amplifier in the price range as far as SQ is concerned (well, except for...power 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), all but the most expensive portables I've heared to date are nothing but poor excuses from more or less famous companies to make easy money. And, unbelievably, it works! So if you think Pico is great, be prepared for a huge surprise! A good one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 Opera was warm and lush. Prehead was...Mr Meier says harsh. I wouldn't call it harsh but rather true (as in unforgiving) with whatever source, cable and music playing. Symphony is in between the two but a lot closer to Prehead in my opinion. A weaker but more refined version of the venerable Prehead.


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## revenge

I've personally owned and tested quite a lot of DAC's, including chinese, eastern european and so on and I can only say this: I find no excuse for the poor stability of Symphony. Of course the highest SQ is the aim of any designing engineer and manufacturing company. But besides that, the DAC *has to be used!* And I mean real usage, in the real world, not on the moon, after midnight, in a bunker or on a deserted island. 
 If small companies like Rockna or Xindac, not to mention big fishes - Lavry, Benchmark, Apogee can do it, than Mr Meier can and should find a solution as well. One that succesfully addresses the stability issues while preserving the SQ. To be honest, that's what I came to expect from Mr Meier's products and it is entirely his fault for the high standards he set over time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## Sieg9198

OMG 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can feel my wallet shivering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well I wasnt comparing the Pico's amp with the Symphony's amp. As that would be pointless lolx Rather the DAC, which the Pico compared favorably among the Lavry or DAC1.

 Although your mentioning of the much thinner sounding is worrying me a lot. Forgiving are not the first word that came into my mind with the SA5000.

 The other thing I liked is Meier's idea of being near balanced without actually going balanced. I dont really like the idea of recabling my SA5000 as I afraid it might alter the sound sig too much. I would like to know if the balanced ground thing really works?? Most obvious benefit of going balanced should be the soundstage, can the Symphony offer a much wider soundstage than other amps??


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## revenge

You would be hard-pressed to find a better soundstage in a SS amplifier. Also the floor noise is a lot lower than in conventional designs. You only come to realise how noisy most of the amps are after you compare it with a balanced design.


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## revenge

Quote:


 Although your mentioning of the much thinner sounding is worrying me a lot. Forgiving are not the first word that came into my mind with the SA5000. 
 

I didn't say much thinner. And thin is not probably the right word to describe it. Both the DAC and the amp section have plenty of bass (sometimes too much for the bassy D7000). We are talking nuances here, subtleties. We are talking about that euphonic, round, full sound of the *real* music, as opposed to a digital reproduction.


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## Sieg9198

Thanks for the help guys!! One last thing, how long does it take from ordering to arriving at your home??

 My wallet is screaming right now


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## revenge

Only Mr Meier can tell you that. Europe is one thing, Malaysia is a different story.


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## ETK

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've personally owned and tested quite a lot of DAC's, including chinese, eastern european and so on and I can only say this: I find no excuse for the poor stability of Symphony. Of course the highest SQ is the aim of any designing engineer and manufacturing company. But besides that, the DAC *has to be used!* And I mean real usage, in the real world, not on the moon, after midnight, in a bunker or on a deserted island. 
 If small companies like Rockna or Xindac, not to mention big fishes - Lavry, Benchmark, Apogee can do it, than Mr Meier can and should find a solution as well. One that succesfully addresses the stability issues while preserving the SQ. To be honest, that's what I came to expect from Mr Meier's products and it is entirely his fault for the high standards he set over time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

 As an anlog circuit desinger , I think I can guess why SYMPHONY will loss link sometimes with dirty power source. 
 In the OPERA , a PLL with wider bandwidth is used to lock the incoming digital signal. That also makes the jitter in the incoming signal be locked and sent to your ear.
 On the contrast , SYMPHONY using its local clock with very very low jitter , if there is frequencty difference , SYMPHONY can adjust it's freqquency very slow to match the incoming signals. It do not lock the phase of incoimg signal. Thus the jitter in the coming signal will not go into SYMPHONY. 

 It's a trade-off. If there is a huge phase noise in the incoming signal , either you conquer it by sending it to ear with jittered noise , or you drop it .
 I like Mere's choice. If you loss link offen , it's better to improve your power connections.


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## revenge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jan Meier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Revenge,

 Today I finally got some time looking into your problem with the lights.

 “ switching on the lights in the house (neon lights) causes droppouts and distorsions and you can actually see the blue leds blinking on the DAC side.”

 I did connect a neon light to the same power bar as my own SYMPHONY and thus was well able to reproduce this effect.

 A more close inspection using a digital oscilloscope revealed that the switching of the light caused very short and very strong multiphase voltage peaks, not only on the powerlines but also on the groundwires. Typical frequencies of these peaks in my situation were around 8 MHz (but I expect these to vary depending on the specific situation of one’s home, as the multiphase peaks do indicate reflections inside a wire of approximately 12 meters length which is approximately the length from my wall connection to the central distribution station in my house).

 A frequency of 8 MHz is very close to the typical bit frequency of CD playback (5 MHz). Since the peaks are very strong and the typical digital input signals are very low (around 0,5 V peak-peak) they result in loss of data tracking. Part of the digital audio signal simply can not be detected by the input circuitry.

 I tried using a power-filter (actually I did have two in series) but that didn’t work at all. The reason probably is, that the ground wire is also strongly contaminated. Thus filtering is ineffective.

 Why do other DACs not suffer from these interruptions?

 Any DAC derives an internal clock signal from the incoming digital data. For this it uses a circuitry that is called the PLL. This clock signal is used to set the “pace” by which the digital data are converted to analog signals.

 Normally the PLL is able to adapt relatively fast to changes in the effective sampling rate of the incoming data. This has advantages when multispeed applications are required (DJ-applications) but it has disadvantages with respect to jitter reduction. Since the PLL adapts so fastly it is not capable to reduce jitter very effectively. It can not separate jitter from other variations in speed.

 With the SYMPHONY the PLL was made much stiffer than normally is the case. It can not adapt fast to changes of the incoming sampling rate. Therefore its DAC can not be used with multispeed applications. However, the advantage is that the clock signal derived now is much less dependent on speed variations caused by jitter. Jitter is strongly reduced.

 When the SYMPHONY was designed a prototype was made that allowed a direct comparison of different settings for the PLL and it was found that the strong reduction really did result in sonic benefits. Sound simply became more fluent and less raw. That’s why I gave up multispeed applications and made the PLL as stiff as it is.

 When the digital data stream is interrupted, a conventional PLL is able to react very quickly when new data are present. The conversion process from digital data into analog data can be resumed very quickly (normally within 1..2 ms). When the interruptions are small then they may well stay unnoticed.

 Because the PLL of the SYMPHONY is very stiff it can not react very quickly to interruptions of the data stream and the DAC has to wait before data conversion can be resumed. My tests have shown that it takes the SYMPHONY around 20 ms before it can output analog data again. Such interruptions are much longer and therefore clearly noticable.

 Possible solutions:

 The only thing that really may help to prevent interruptions is to connect all lights to a wall socket that itself is connected to a different electrical “group” than the audio setup.

 Alternatively the PLL of your SYMPHONY can be changed to more conventional settings. Thus interruptions become very small. However, in my opinion sound quality will suffer. Depending on the quality of the digital source the effect of jitter can be very noticable, as my own experiments have learned me.

 Just send me an e-mail when there are more questions.

 Cheers

 Jan_

 


 So no, thank you. Unfortunately I'm unable to move to another location (unless you or Mr. Meyer can find me a better job) and I'm definitely not going to recable my office. Somehow I have the feeling that my managers wouldn't appreciate that. They are not into the Symphony business 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, nor have they ever heared of snake oils, spikes, power conditioners, braided cables and the like. 
 In a domestic enviroment the DAC performs much better (as long as you threat everyone with the death penalty unless they go to the bathroom in total darkness) but the problem of feeding a pair of powered monitors remains. And even on my lowest impedance headphones (D7000) there are occasional clipping/dropouts in the DAC section, especially during loud, dynamic passages, even without messing up with the lights. That's why I suppose this problem is impedance-related. I seldom experience it with GS1000 which has a bit higher (although still low) impedance.


----------



## revenge

The impedance related problems with the headphones are, by the way, subtle and far less obvious than the neon trick. I bet 95% of the listeners will not notice it at all. But for good, trained ears they are definitely there, irrespective of the gain setting. 
 The powered speakers mismatch however is, again, more than obvious and pretty disturbing and the only solution is to lower the volume on either the amplifier or the speakers down to a level that is not entirely satisfactory. Pointless to say I've been using my A2s with Lavry for quite some time now and I've never experienced any problems.
 If you think I am wrong pointing the finger at the DAC section, I repeat myself over and over: it's the lights on the DAC side that blink whenever there is a dropout. Also if I bypass the internal DAC and use Lavry as a source instead, none of the problems are noticed. So it has to be the DAC section.
 While the SQ is indeed great, all these niggles limit the usability of Symphony in ways I have never experienced before with any of Mr Meier's products. After paying more than 1000£ for his latest toy, the above answer is far from satisfactory: "yes, our product is great (I entirely agree on that) but, in order to properly use it, may I kindly suggest you recabling your entire house". That means time, that means money not to mention the mess an electrician leaves behind. Repairing and repainting the walls? Redecorating the house? That is OK as long as my beloved Symphony is sounding, oh so great! 
 Nowadays I see a pattern, a trend. More and more companies are launching, under financial, competitional pressure and so on, products that are not fully tested or do not entirely meet the advertised parameters/expectations. From Windows Vista to my new Irex DR1000, a lot has been advertised, very little has been tested and, after significant negative feedback, again very little has been done to address the issues. 
 There are no FAQ's, nor any warnings about the malfunctioning of Symphony in less than stellar, audiophile quality electrical setups. So, as far as an average buyer is concerned, I expect to buy the thing, plug it, switch it on and enjoy it.
 Many of you have a point in looking at things from an audiophile perspective. Yes, I know a thing or two about power, I have two power conditioners, I have upgraded power supplies for most of my toys, quality power cables (and yes, they do make a difference!) and so on. 
 But a product like Symphony doesn't scream "for audiophile use only" all over, I see no "no touch" label on it regarding regular 1£ IEC cables and power plugs. And considering it is far from just a headphone amplifier (which would be indeed restricted to more or less audiophile use), but a soundcard, a DAC and a preamplifier as well, it might very well seem suitable for a lot of average users, who simply don't know and don't want to know anything about all the mumbo-jumbo audiophile nonsense. Yeah, separated power circuits, power conditioners, gold plated fuses, Wattgates and...oh, what was the other thing? Right, let's buy a Bose!
 I mean, people, let's get down to reality! I'm not talking about pickhammers here but switching on the lights in my own house/office! Is it such a difficult, absurd, out of the ordinary demand? 

 Now how about the other option? Even better: trade SQ for stability.  Quote:


 Thus interruptions become very small. However, in my opinion sound quality will suffer. 
 

 I don't know about you but I don't find it appealing at all. On one hand,  Quote:


 the interruptions become very small. 
 

 They don't disappear altogether, it's no sure thing. It will just make things better. How much better? Difficult to say from the above statement. Probably still perceptible but to a lesser extent. And the trade-off? No big deal, sound quality will suffer. 

 How many of you find this last solution satisfactory? Please raise your hands...

 To end all this long and useless argument (and I promise to do it, unless I will be provoked again), I confess that when I bought it, I was hoping to replace my Lavry and Prehead with the new Symphony. And as far as SQ is concerned, I could definitely live without DA10 and Prehead. But comparing the Lavry - Prehead combo, which performs even now, after so many years, like a lean, mean, fighting machine, a Schwarzenegger in Terminator, a do-it-all setup with huge power, fidelity and solid rock stability with Symphony, sadly Mr Meier's latest creation looks more like an asthmatic version of Woody Allen to me... Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Woody Allen. It's just...I don't know, it's like Anadin said: I had different expectations from Symphony. I was probably hoping for the SQ I am actually getting, but combined with the power, stability and versatility of the Lavry - Prehead combo. I guess you can't have it all, can you?


----------



## ETK

maybe something like this stuff will make things different ... ?






 or maybe a UPS for PC will help ,too. --> this is my case.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Headfellows,

 A few comments to some of the statements given in this thread.

 > I still find at times the gain of the amplifier, even on low impedance headphones, a little less than desired. As far as the gain is concerned, compared to my old and beloved Prehead, Symphony is miles away and not in a good way.

 The gain factor of the SYMPHONY indeed is lower than that of the PREHEAD. The latter was designed and sold in a period that high impedance (600 Ohm) and/or very inefficient headphones (K1000) were still very common and the intention was, that the PREHEAD should drive them all.

 However, since then the market situation has changed a lot. Newer headphones are much more sensitive and when using high gain factors this easily results in background noise and poor volume control. The SYMPHONY therefore was given a medium gain factor only. However, please note that gain factor and power are not the same. The SYMPHONY has still plenty of power. You only have to turn up volume control further than on the PREHEAD.

 The gain-factor of the SYMPHONY is the same as on e.g. the old HA-2. When this latter amp was produced at the beginning I received similar comments as with the SYMPHONY.
 I then repositioned the volume dial such that the indicator dot on this dial is set at 6 o’clock instead of 7 o’clock at zero volume. Now people had to turn up to 11 o’clock instead at 12 o’clock to reach the volume levels desired. Complaints immediately stopped even if the gain factor was still the same. I guess it’s partly psychological!! 

 Of course some people really suffered from serious volume problems when using the USB-input. Those problems, however, were all caused by non-maximized digital volume controls in the settings of their media-player or device driver.

 > The other thing worth mentioning is that my DAC, I don't know about others, suffers from frequent dropouts.

 And this is indeed the biggest problem of all. Fortunately it is still only experienced by a relatively low percentage of customers but nonetheless, it can be very annoying.

 > Apparently this has to do with an engineering decision concerning high jitter rejection and a better sound altogether.

 That is, what I originally thought. However, since then I have conducted some very extensive efforts to reduce/solve the problem, mainly by filtering out the noise signals on the S/PDIF signal. Unfortunately that was not possible, since these noise signals are very close to or inside the frequency band of the S/PDIF signal.

 I also tried to solve the problem by changing the jitter rejection but this did not solve the problem either. However, during these efforts it was then found, that the problem was from a different origin then expected. Even after the S/PDIF data stream was back to normal it still took the S/PDIF receiver-chip at least 12..15 ms before restoring its output to the DAC-chip, independing on the PLL-settings. This loss of signal was thus inherent part of the receiver chip.

 The receiver chip used in the SYMPHONY is the DR9001 made by Burr Brown (Texas Instruments). It is relatively new on the market and is not yet used very much. This chip was implemented because it offers some very interesting features (like sampling rate detection) and because the receiver chip used in the OPERA (of a different brand) did cause quite some problems (of a similar kind though).

 When the problems with the DR9001 could not be solved I did an internet research and found that its predecessor, the DIR1703, was taken off the market very quickly after its appearance because this chip hang up when it had to handle a sudden change of the sampling frequency (e.g. when the input source is changed). The chip then had to be resetted in order to continue operation.

 The pin layout of the DIR9001 and DIR1703. My suspicion is, that these receivers are actually the same, except for the fact that the DIR9001 has an automatic reset incorporated.

 When an S/PDIF data stream is shortly interrupted a S/PDIF receiver normally interpolates the data and fills up the gaps. However, with the DIR9001 apparently the loss of data may be interpreted as a condition where the sampling frequency is changed. The chip resets even if the data interruption is only a very short one. Resetting takes 10..15 ms and during this period no data are transferred to the DAC chip. Thus even short data interruptions (which are always present) suddenly become very audible.

 Needless to say that this information is not found in the data sheeth of the DIR9001.

 Also needless to say that I’m pretty pissed off by the current situation.

 Are there solutions?

 The best solution would be, to exchange the receiver chip by a different one. However, since receiver chips are generally not pin-compatible this is impossible for me to do.

 Change the design of the amp and incorporate a different chip? Sure, I would like to. However, in order to keep production costs low a rather large series of amps has been produced that have to be sold first. It’s economically not feasable to produce a new series yet. My products are always produced in large batches. This allows me to sell at much lower prices but also makes me inflexible in optimisation of my products.

 More practical solutions:

 - If possible use the optical connection. This seems to solve problems very reliably. An optical connection is simply not able to pick-up any electrical noise.

 - Try ferrits around the coaxial cable. One customer had serious problems in connection with the S/PDIF output of his PC and was able to solve them by placing ferrits. It has to be said though, that this solution does not always work.

 - Connect (potential) sources of noise (Neon-lights, refridgerators, waterpumps of heating systems, computers) to different electrical groups in the house so they are less prone to interfere with your audio-setup.

 > Also it's probably an impedance missmatch but if I feed a pair of Audioengine A2 from the lineout of Symphony, set the volume halfway on both Symphony and A2 and play some dynamic passages, the same thing happens: clipping and dropouts in the DAC section

 This probably is caused by the switched power supply of the A2. These supplies can produce a lot of crap on the power lines. It is one of the reason why my own products always use analog supplies only.

 I remember reading a test in an audio-magazin of a digital amplifier of a very renowned brand that also incorporates a switched power supply. When the amplifier was turned on the in-house communication system of the editor completely broke down because of the large amount of interference that was produced. Nonetheless they seemed to like the sound of the amp! 

 People should be aware that the S/PDIF signal is a very small one. Nominally only a signal of 0.5 Volts is transferred and, according to the international standard specifications, a S/PDIF receiver should still be able to reliably detect signals as small as 0.2 Volts! That is a very though job indeed! It really is not very surprising that such signal can be corrupted by noise.

 > Nowadays I see a pattern, a trend. More and more companies are launching, under financial, competitional pressure and so on, products that are not fully tested or do not entirely meet the advertised parameters/expectations.

 Of course before production a prototype of the SYMPHONY was extensively used and tested at my place. However, problems as described by Revenge never occured. I guess I’m lucky to have relatively clean powerlines.

 However, I feel that the manufacturer of the DIR9001 should be aware of its potential problem and, actually, I’m pretty sure that he does! That’s why I’m so extremely annoyed.

 Right now around 60 SYMPHONY amplifiers have been sold. In around 10% of all cases dropouts did occur. Most of them only at larger time intervalls, in one case continuously (using a PC). The use of an optical link, if possible, has shown to be very effective cure. As such the problem, although far from optimal, is still managable. People should be noted that we have a refund policy, so in case the amp doesn’t work properly at their place it can be returned.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## fkclo

Thanks Jan for the detailed explanation.

 For me, I am glad that the DAC of my Symphony works flawlessly - so much that I am using DAC connected to my iMac most of the time although I did have the analogue inputs connected to my CD player.

 I am right now listening to Eva Cassidy's "Eva By Heart" in lossless format - via my K701. It is surprising that even if I use "low gain" setting which used to give me the feeling of underpower, I do have good volume at around 12 o'clock.

 F. Lo


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I suspect other solutions would be a PS Audio power regenerator plant, or maybe even the cheaper alternative, the PS Audio Noise Harvesters (which are being talked up in the Stax thread). And, I assume there are still Coax to Optical converters around, for those who don't have an optical out on their source?


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suspect other solutions would be a PS Audio power regenerator plant, or maybe even the cheaper alternative, the PS Audio Noise Harvesters (which are being talked up in the Stax thread)._

 

The PS Audio Noise Harvester are really great. I was astonished what the first two did. Now I own four! Now when it comes to the Symphony DAC dropout - they actually do nothing to cure that. Sorry! For me it is no issue as I currently use only the AudioNET ART G2 as source. When my iTransport is back from modding by Audiocom International I will test which DAC section is the best match - Symphony versus Audionet ART G2 DAC.


----------



## suikodenii

"People should be aware that the S/PDIF signal is a very small one. Nominally only a signal of 0.5 Volts is transferred and, according to the international standard specifications, a S/PDIF receiver should still be able to reliably detect signals as small as 0.2 Volts! That is a very though job indeed! It really is not very surprising that such signal can be corrupted by noise."

 Not entirely cheap but potentially such a device as the DIP can be a solution to this - which will be inserted in the digital path between the source and DAC:

DIP* Upsampler

 Apparently it significantly boosts and cleans up the signal via Coax interconnect.


----------



## revenge

Dear Mr Meier, this is finally an honest statement, the kind of statement I was actually expecting from you. And I really appreciate that. But while people here keep offering more or less expensive solutions (and apparently useless), I can't stop asking myself some questions: do you think one prototype, tested in one particular setup and enviroment (yours) was relevant? And why did you have to wait until you sold 60 Symphonies and had six unhappy customers (which is by no means a minor figure in my opinion) to start a proper testing and check in depth available online documentations only to reach the conclusion there is no solution and the DAC is irremediably flawed by the use of an unstable chip?! Was this a last minute discovery or was it ancient history long before you designed and produced the prototype in which case why didn't you check it *before*? I completely understand your point of view as a manufacturer but do you understand mine as a consumer? I payed a premium price for a headphone amplifier plus a USB soundcard plus a DAC plus a preamplifier and now what do I get in return? I need to recable my house, there is no way I can use any switched power supplied device around Symphony (do you have any idea how many devices use today, as we speak, this kind of PSU and how expensive it would be to replace them? Just one example: the CI Audio PSU for Wadia iTransport is sold in Europe for 250 euros!), I should drop all digital connections but the optical one. A helpful member here also comes with an even greater solution that only proves how much he knows about jitter. HeadphoneAddict, seriously, have you ever used such a converter yourself? Do you have any idea how much jitter will generate a coaxial/optical converter ?! Try it for yourself because I'm pretty sure you've never used one and then we'll talk. 

 So now me, the paying client/beta tester of your prototype, have to live with it simply because someone hasn't done his homework *before* producing it, because it would be difficult/expensive for the same someone to redesign the whole thing and because there are still plenty of brand new Symphonies to sell. No sorry, no excuses to me or the other 60 guys who, according to the above posts, are all experiencing the same problems, only to a lesser degree. Yes, the product is flawed but it's not my fault and it would cost me a lot of money to fix the problem. We will probably address it in a future release but no, you will not benefit from it unless you pay big money for the new prototype. So right now you either use it as it is, with limited functionality, giving up half the connections you payed for, or get your money back. Honestly, this position is quite unbelievable! At this point I really wish I had returned the thing during the two weeks "trial"!


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Mr Meier, this is finally an honest statement, the kind of statement I was actually expecting from you. And I really appreciate that. But while people here keep offering more or less expensive solutions (and apparently useless), I can't stop asking myself some questions: do you think one prototype, tested in one particular setup and enviroment (yours) was relevant? And why did you have to wait until you sold 60 Symphonies and had six unhappy customers (which is by no means a minor figure in my opinion) to start a proper testing and check in depth available online documentations only to reach the conclusion there is no solution and the DAC is irremediably flawed by the use of an unstable chip?! Was this a last minute discovery or was it ancient history long before you designed and produced the prototype in which case why didn't you check it *before*? I completely understand your point of view as a manufacturer but do you understand mine as a consumer? I payed a premium price for a headphone amplifier plus a USB soundcard plus a DAC plus a preamplifier and now what do I get in return? I need to recable my house, there is no way I can use any switched power supplied device around Symphony (do you have any idea how many devices use today, as we speak, this kind of PSU and how expensive it would be to replace them? Just one example: the CI Audio PSU for Wadia iTransport is sold in Europe for 250 euros!), I should drop all digital connections but the optical one. A helpful member here also comes with an even greater solution that only proves how much he knows about jitter. HeadphoneAddict, seriously, have you ever used such a converter yourself? Do you have any idea how much jitter will generate a coaxial/optical converter ?! Try it for yourself because I'm pretty sure you've never used one and then we'll talk. 

 So now me, the paying client/beta tester of your prototype, have to live with it simply because someone hasn't done his homework *before* producing it, because it would be difficult/expensive for the same someone to redesign the whole thing and because there are still plenty of brand new Symphonies to sell. No sorry, no excuses to me or the other 60 guys who, according to the above posts, are all experiencing the same problems, only to a lesser degree. Yes, the product is flawed but it's not my fault and it would cost me a lot of money to fix the problem. We will probably address it in a future release but no, you will not benefit from it unless you pay big money for the new prototype. So right now you either use it as it is, with limited functionality, giving up half the connections you payed for, or get your money back. Honestly, this position is quite unbelievable! At this point I really wish I had returned the thing during the two weeks "trial"!_

 

What are you after?
 I think the damage for you is zero, since you are offered your money back.
 Damage for Jan Meier is considerably larger.
 I personally feel sorry for you, but I feel much more sorry for Jan Meier and I respect his honest attitude. More than I can say for your continued, useless whining.
 You made your point, you got compensated, now stop it.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are you after?
 I think the damage for you is zero, since you are offered your money back.
 Damage for Jan Meier is considerably larger.
 I personally feel sorry for you, but I feel much more sorry for Jan Meier and I respect his honest attitude. More than I can say for your continued, useless whining.
 You made your point, you got compensated, now stop it._

 

Agreed on all points.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are you after?
 I think the damage for you is zero, since you are offered your money back.
 Damage for Jan Meier is considerably larger.
 I personally feel sorry for you, but I feel much more sorry for Jan Meier and I respect his honest attitude. More than I can say for your continued, useless whining.
 You made your point, you got compensated, now stop it._

 

Amen!

 Interference in the power lines will always be a problem with high-end audio. There are all sorts of ways to try to work around it, but sometimes the only real solution will be having your own private power plant. (Yes, I know, not really a feasible option.)
 You have received great service from Jan Meier for a problem that could have occurred with a large manufacturer like Marantz or Cambridge Audio just as easily as it did with Mr. Meier. Do you really think you would have received similar service from those?

 Be at least a little grateful and stop complaining.


----------



## Richter Di

As revenge said in an earlier post: the Symphony is worth the money even if you do not use the DAC.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...

 ...

 So right now you either use it as it is, with limited functionality, giving up half the connections you payed for, or get your money back. Honestly, this position is quite unbelievable! At this point I really wish I had returned the thing during the two weeks "trial"!_

 

How exactly is this position "quite unbelievable"?

 You are being offered a refund of the purchase price, but you find that position "quite unbelievable"? What am I missing here?

 It appears that you have had the unit longer than the two week "trial", yet you are still being offered a refund. How you conclude that this position is "quite unbelievable" is quite unbelievable itself!


----------



## Sieg9198

One more question about the sound, Symphony is an amp with a huge soundstage, detailed and transparent amp right?? Pretty much like the GS-1 except the soundstage part right? I would like to know if it sounds laid back and relaxing or aggresive/forward and engaging.(I prefer the latter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## anadin

The Symphony sounds laid back and relaxing.

 And most definatley lacks gain, or at least it did when I owned it.


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One more question about the sound, Symphony is an amp with a huge soundstage, detailed and transparent amp right?? Pretty much like the GS-1 except the soundstage part right? I would like to know if it sounds laid back and relaxing or aggresive/forward and engaging.(I prefer the latter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 

For me the sound is neither nor. The Symphony can be compared to a Ferrari. You feel the street, hence you hear what the source is handing over. Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## revenge

*Sieg9198*, huge soundstage and aggresive/forward are actually opposite terms. You can't have it both at the same time. And yes, the Symphony has an excellent soundstage. But being a SS amp and considering the DAC's signature as well, I wouldn't call it laid back or relaxing at all. Anadin used it, as far as I know, with HD650 which is a high impedance, laid back, relaxing headphone. Try a Grado instead and you might find the sound, depending on your taste, a bit too bright/aggresive (but not at all sibilant or harsh, as with other amplifiers). That's why I told you there are a million things to consider. It depends a great deal on the source, cables, headphones and, obviously, the listener. Anyway I repeat myself: if we are talking about resolution, transparency and soundstage I still think it is one of the best options in the price range. 

 Regarding the other discution, I've asked you nicely not to provoke me as I am really pissed of at the moment with quite a few expensive devices that do not meet *my* expectations, including Mr Meier's creation. To all my critics, may I remind you that in all this story *I* am the paying customer, and I've been so for a while, having bought over time more of Mr meier's products than most of you will ever buy. It is his expertise and *my* money (by me meaning all the faithfull customers over time) that brought you your new Symphony on the desk today. And, as an old customer, I've expressed my dissatisfaction with his latest creation, his support (which is what? there is nothing we can do about it? keep it or send it back?) and, especially, his attitude. When I bought it, I had no idea what to expect from it except for, like Anadin very well put it, great hopes and expectations. There was no indication on the official page or elsewhere about any of the problems I've encountered in daily use. 
 I am still waiting for an official appology to all of us, the customers who bought the prototype just to experience various problems. I would also like to be thanked for using *my* time and money for testing purposes and reporting problems that, once identified and defined, will be addressed in a future release that will bring you all a better DAC/amp combo on the table. 
 Last but not least, all the potential buyers of the actual prototype will now know exactly what to expect from it if they will take the time to read this thread. Unfortunately this information was unavailable for us at the time we bought it. 

 Having said all this, I promise not to bother any of you you again in this thread and I do apologize for any inconvenience caused to the manufacturer.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Sieg9198*,
 Regarding the other discution, I've asked you nicely not to provoke me as I am really pissed of at the moment with quite a few expensive devices that do not meet *my* expectations, including Mr Meier's creation. To all my critics, may I remind you that in all this story *I* am the paying customer, and I've been so for a while, having bought over time more of Mr meier's products than most of you will ever buy. It is his expertise and *my* money (by me meaning all the faithfull customers over time) that brought you your new Symphony on the desk today. And, as an old customer, I've expressed my dissatisfaction with his latest creation, his support (which is what? there is nothing we can do about it? keep it or send it back?) and, especially, his attitude. When I bought it, I had no idea what to expect from it except for, like Anadin very well put it, great hopes and expectations. There was no indication on the official page or elsewhere about any of the problems I've encountered in daily use. 
 I am still waiting for an official appology to all of us, the customers who bought the prototype just to experience various problems. I would also like to be thanked for using *my* time and money for testing purposes and reporting problems that, once identified and defined, will be addressed in a future release that will bring you all a better DAC/amp combo on the table. 
 Last but not least, all the potential buyers of the actual prototype will now know exactly what to expect from it if they will take the time to read this thread. Unfortunately this information was unavailable for us at the time we bought it. 

 Having said all this, I promise not to bother any of you you again in this thread and I do apologize for any inconvenience caused to the manufacturer._

 

I feel the need to react to this one more time:
 I think you are unreasonable when you expect of Jan to inform you of something he does not know. He was not aware of the problem when he sold you the amp.
 He informed you (and everybody) as soon as he found out about it, even if that could damage his own interest. One could not ask more of him.
 If you are not satisfied with the deal you can undo it, Jan offered you complete cooperation to do so. 
 I find Jan Meier's attitude in this matter brave and very correct.
 I can completely understand that you are disappointed, but I find your reaction very unreasonable and needlessly damaging.


----------



## Skylab

Since Jan has offered to accept return of any defective amp, I don't understand what the problem is. We have all had products that have had issues. And such things are not limited to smaller manufacturers like Meier. I bought a $2,000 Denon "Universal" player a few years back that didn't work right until its THIRD firmware upgrade. Had I not pro-actively reached out to Denon on this, it certainly would never have been resolved.

 I also bought a Mitsubishi TV that required THREE service calls to get the HDD recorder in it to function. Had I not bought the dealer's enhanced warranty, I'm not sure how that one would have ended up.

 Then there was the Rotel amp that buzzed hopelessly. And my iPod mini that wouldn't hold a batter charge. And...and...and...I think you get the point.

 Jan got a bum turn from a chip maker. It happens. He's offering to replace or refund amps for people who aren't happy. What more can he do?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Sieg9198*, huge soundstage and aggresive/forward are actually opposite terms. You can't have it both at the same time. And yes, the Symphony has an excellent soundstage. But being a SS amp and considering the DAC's signature as well, I wouldn't call it laid back or relaxing at all. Anadin used it, as far as I know, with HD650 which is a high impedance, laid back, relaxing headphone. Try a Grado instead and you might find the sound, depending on your taste, a bit too bright/aggresive (but not at all sibilant or harsh, as with other amplifiers). That's why I told you there are a million things to consider. It depends a great deal on the source, cables, headphones and, obviously, the listener. Anyway I repeat myself: if we are talking about resolution, transparency and soundstage I still think it is one of the best options in the price range. 

 Regarding the other discution, I've asked you nicely not to provoke me as I am really pissed of at the moment with quite a few expensive devices that do not meet *my* expectations, including Mr Meier's creation. To all my critics, may I remind you that in all this story *I* am the paying customer, and I've been so for a while, having bought over time more of Mr meier's products than most of you will ever buy. It is his expertise and *my* money (by me meaning all the faithfull customers over time) that brought you your new Symphony on the desk today. And, as an old customer, I've expressed my dissatisfaction with his latest creation, his support (which is what? there is nothing we can do about it? keep it or send it back?) and, especially, his attitude. When I bought it, I had no idea what to expect from it except for, like Anadin very well put it, great hopes and expectations. There was no indication on the official page or elsewhere about any of the problems I've encountered in daily use. 
 I am still waiting for an official appology to all of us, the customers who bought the prototype just to experience various problems. I would also like to be thanked for using *my* time and money for testing purposes and reporting problems that, once identified and defined, will be addressed in a future release that will bring you all a better DAC/amp combo on the table. 
 Last but not least, all the potential buyers of the actual prototype will now know exactly what to expect from it if they will take the time to read this thread. Unfortunately this information was unavailable for us at the time we bought it. 

 Having said all this, I promise not to bother any of you you again in this thread and I do apologize for any inconvenience caused to the manufacturer._

 

No matter what Jan says to you or others, I still don't think you'd be satisfied. Attitudes like yours are the major turn-off of high end audio to the uninitiated.


----------



## Sieg9198

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Sieg9198*, huge soundstage and aggresive/forward are actually opposite terms. You can't have it both at the same time. And yes, the Symphony has an excellent soundstage. But being a SS amp and considering the DAC's signature as well, I wouldn't call it laid back or relaxing at all. Anadin used it, as far as I know, with HD650 which is a high impedance, laid back, relaxing headphone. Try a Grado instead and you might find the sound, depending on your taste, a bit too bright/aggresive (but not at all sibilant or harsh, as with other amplifiers). That's why I told you there are a million things to consider. It depends a great deal on the source, cables, headphones and, obviously, the listener. Anyway I repeat myself: if we are talking about resolution, transparency and soundstage I still think it is one of the best options in the price range. 

 Regarding the other discution, I've asked you nicely not to provoke me as I am really pissed of at the moment with quite a few expensive devices that do not meet *my* expectations, including Mr Meier's creation. To all my critics, may I remind you that in all this story *I* am the paying customer, and I've been so for a while, having bought over time more of Mr meier's products than most of you will ever buy. It is his expertise and *my* money (by me meaning all the faithfull customers over time) that brought you your new Symphony on the desk today. And, as an old customer, I've expressed my dissatisfaction with his latest creation, his support (which is what? there is nothing we can do about it? keep it or send it back?) and, especially, his attitude. When I bought it, I had no idea what to expect from it except for, like Anadin very well put it, great hopes and expectations. There was no indication on the official page or elsewhere about any of the problems I've encountered in daily use. 
 I am still waiting for an official appology to all of us, the customers who bought the prototype just to experience various problems. I would also like to be thanked for using *my* time and money for testing purposes and reporting problems that, once identified and defined, will be addressed in a future release that will bring you all a better DAC/amp combo on the table. 
 Last but not least, all the potential buyers of the actual prototype will now know exactly what to expect from it if they will take the time to read this thread. Unfortunately this information was unavailable for us at the time we bought it. 

 Having said all this, I promise not to bother any of you you again in this thread and I do apologize for any inconvenience caused to the manufacturer._

 

Well I think I misused the term, sorry bout that. I think it should be a huge soundstage with a very lively and dynamic presentation(ALMOST grado like aggresiveness). One that attracts your attention all the time. As opposed to the HD650's laid back and relaxing type of sound.


----------



## Sieg9198

double


----------



## esuko

Does these DAC dropouts happen only with Coaxial input?


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *esuko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does these DAC dropouts happen only with Coaxial input?_

 

Yes.


----------



## esuko

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Richter Di* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes._

 

Great news, my dream goes on then.


----------



## scootermafia

Screw coax. It's called optical. Make it work.

 I don't get all the whining. Meier didn't know about the problem until it was too late. Either use optical or get a refund, but quit the crying.


----------



## Sieg9198

I thought the drop out only happens with USB??


----------



## ManAtWork

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Mr Meier, this is finally an honest statement, the kind of statement I was actually expecting from you. And I really appreciate that. But while people here keep offering more or less expensive solutions (and apparently useless), I can't stop asking myself some questions: do you think one prototype, tested in one particular setup and enviroment (yours) was relevant? And why did you have to wait until you sold 60 Symphonies and had six unhappy customers (which is by no means a minor figure in my opinion) to start a proper testing and check in depth available online documentations only to reach the conclusion there is no solution and the DAC is irremediably flawed by the use of an unstable chip?! Was this a last minute discovery or was it ancient history long before you designed and produced the prototype in which case why didn't you check it *before*? I completely understand your point of view as a manufacturer but do you understand mine as a consumer? I payed a premium price for a headphone amplifier plus a USB soundcard plus a DAC plus a preamplifier and now what do I get in return? I need to recable my house, there is no way I can use any switched power supplied device around Symphony (do you have any idea how many devices use today, as we speak, this kind of PSU and how expensive it would be to replace them? Just one example: the CI Audio PSU for Wadia iTransport is sold in Europe for 250 euros!), I should drop all digital connections but the optical one. A helpful member here also comes with an even greater solution that only proves how much he knows about jitter. HeadphoneAddict, seriously, have you ever used such a converter yourself? Do you have any idea how much jitter will generate a coaxial/optical converter ?! Try it for yourself because I'm pretty sure you've never used one and then we'll talk. 

 So now me, the paying client/beta tester of your prototype, have to live with it simply because someone hasn't done his homework *before* producing it, because it would be difficult/expensive for the same someone to redesign the whole thing and because there are still plenty of brand new Symphonies to sell. No sorry, no excuses to me or the other 60 guys who, according to the above posts, are all experiencing the same problems, only to a lesser degree. Yes, the product is flawed but it's not my fault and it would cost me a lot of money to fix the problem. We will probably address it in a future release but no, you will not benefit from it unless you pay big money for the new prototype. So right now you either use it as it is, with limited functionality, giving up half the connections you payed for, or get your money back. Honestly, this position is quite unbelievable! At this point I really wish I had returned the thing during the two weeks "trial"!_

 

I believe there are options available to solve your problem, and Meier still accepts to refund for your return or swap to another unit for free. With his great customer satisfaction handling and responsiblity, how could you still blame Meier in such public enviornment, this is not a gentleman behavior.

 In practical, you should realized that there is not perfect products; the manufactors only try their best to minimize it. It doesn't mean that any product with defect found is "prototype", if so, then you must send the complaints to all computer hardware, software vendors because there are problems found every day in each of their products.

 Take it easy, it is not big deal especially you are fortunately to encounter a vendor in famous on good service. My Opera also be found defected after using months, but this was an occasionally issue and Meier sent me a replacement to me immediately. What else we expect to such good vendor?


----------



## nuclearpoweredpenguin

I just wanted to add a little bit about my experience with the Symphony. I've owned it for 3 months now, and I had owned other Meier amps in the past. While I too have had some issues with interference with the DAC using a coax cable, and find it a bit annoying at times I still love the amp. 

 The only thing I really feel comfortable speaking to here, as I'm just not as technically inclined as many of you posting, is the gain issue. I had read this thread thoroughly multiple times before purchasing my Symphony and was aware of the issue, or perceived issue with the volume and it was my only real concern before purchasing. I read Jan's responses about why that was and how because of how the volume is constructed that he believed there was a bit of a psychological affect going on with the volume. 

 My headphones are currently a pair of Beyer DT990's 250 ohm, a pair of DT990's 32ohm and a pair of Sennheiser hd650's. I listen to a lot of heavy and progressive metal, and I never have to turn the volume past 1 o'clock. If I choose to I can easily reach ear splitting levels. I don't worry too much about where the knob is physically set other than to gauge that I don't start increasing the volume as my ears adjust. 

 To me, and with my limited knowledge I could be wrong, but it seems some are equating having to turn the volume knob further than they are used to with a lack of volume. For me it doesn't matter what the knob is set to as long as I can achieve the volume I want, which I can without any problem with the Symphony and still have plenty of room to increase the volume if I want it really loud.


----------



## Henmyr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nuclearpoweredpenguin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just wanted to add a little bit about my experience with the Symphony. I've owned it for 3 months now, and I had owned other Meier amps in the past. While I too have had some issues with interference with the DAC using a coax cable, and find it a bit annoying at times I still love the amp. 

 The only thing I really feel comfortable speaking to here, as I'm just not as technically inclined as many of you posting, is the gain issue. I had read this thread thoroughly multiple times before purchasing my Symphony and was aware of the issue, or perceived issue with the volume and it was my only real concern before purchasing. I read Jan's responses about why that was and how because of how the volume is constructed that he believed there was a bit of a psychological affect going on with the volume. 

 My headphones are currently a pair of Beyer DT990's 250 ohm,, a pair of DT990's 32ohm and a pair of Sennheiser hd650's. I listen to a lot of heavy and progressive metal, and I never have to turn the volume past 1 o'clock. If I choose to I can easily reach ear splitting levels. I don't worry too much about where the knob is physically set other than to gauge that I don't start increasing the volume as my ears adjust. 

 To me, and with my limited knowledge I could be wrong, but it seems to me some are equating having to turn the volume knob further than they are used to with a lack of volume. For me it doesn't matter what the knob is set to as long as I can achieve the volume I want, which I can without any problem with the Symphony and still have plenty of room to increase the volume if I want it really loud._

 

I REALLY like Jan's modell which is keeping the gain low. With both the internal amp of the Zero and the Little Dot MKIII, I can/could only use between 7 and 8 o'clock with my low impedance headphones, and even with K501 and HD600 which both are hard to drive, I could not get past 10 o'clock, and this is with LOW gain Little Dot MKIII.

 The Headfive I had better them both as I could use more of the dial, and listen at a lower volume without channel imbalance.

 Jan, keep up the good work


----------



## revenge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought the drop out only happens with USB??_

 

Actually I've never had any problems using the USB input. All my frustrations were related to the coaxial input. 
 And a last minute finding: although not entirely satisfactory, a Tacima CS929 can improve the stability issues a lot. Also Symphony will benefit a great deal from a good mains cable. I know a lot of people don't believe in mains cables but, still, give it a try!


----------



## tubaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amen!

 Interference in the power lines will always be a problem with high-end audio. There are all sorts of ways to try to work around it, but sometimes the only real solution will be having your own private power plant. (Yes, I know, not really a feasible option.)_

 

Actually PS Audio makes a thing called exactly that - Power Plant.


----------



## tubaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've personally owned and tested quite a lot of DAC's, including chinese, eastern european and so on and I can only say this: I find no excuse for the poor stability of Symphony. Of course the highest SQ is the aim of any designing engineer and manufacturing company. But besides that, the DAC *has to be used!* And I mean real usage, in the real world, not on the moon, after midnight, in a bunker or on a deserted island. 
 If small companies like Rockna or Xindac, not to mention big fishes - Lavry, Benchmark, Apogee can do it, than Mr Meier can and should find a solution as well. One that succesfully addresses the stability issues while preserving the SQ. To be honest, that's what I came to expect from Mr Meier's products and it is entirely his fault for the high standards he set over time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





._

 

Actually my DAC1 USB had dropout problem with USB input a while ago, too. I'm just saying it could happen to any one, those quirks.


----------



## tubaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ [*]The Symphony DAC is slightly better sounding to me ( SPDIF vs. SPDIF) - being more resolved but not edgy. The M902 DAC sounds "soft" by comparison. 
 [*]The Symphony USB DAC is noticeably better, and comes with various filter choices for fine tuning of the sound you want
 [*]The headphone amp of the Symphony sound more neutral and have a lower noise floor (actually both amps are very black background so the differentiation is not that easy). I am sure the power supply of Symphony is better.
 [*]The headphone amp of the Symphony is more resolving and provide a more neutral sound, but the M902 is a bit smoother (or rounded) in general

 F. Lo_

 

Thanks for the review. 

 Question: when comparing the DAC/amp sections of the two, did you use the same amp/DAC section?
 I am assuming you did; otherwise it's impossible to tell what's making the difference. Could you further enlighten us by listing the interconnect and power cables used for the test? Thanks

 P.S. I'm waiting for my Symphony to arrive. I'll be able to connect everything in my home entertainment center to it (DVD player, laptop, tuner, K702, and a pair of KRK active speakers!). Very sweet.


----------



## Headphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone compared it to Rudistor RPX-33 ?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Headphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2, I'd like to know too._

 

I'd still like to know.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tubaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the review. 

 Question: when comparing the DAC/amp sections of the two, did you use the same amp/DAC section?
 I am assuming you did; otherwise it's impossible to tell what's making the difference. Could you further enlighten us by listing the interconnect and power cables used for the test? Thanks

 P.S. I'm waiting for my Symphony to arrive. I'll be able to connect everything in my home entertainment center to it (DVD player, laptop, tuner, K702, and a pair of KRK active speakers!). Very sweet._

 

Hello tubaman,

 Yes, I listened to a number of arrangements trying to compare the amp sections only of the Symphony and the M902, and then the DAC only session. Finally I listen to the combos because this is the configuration most people will stick to. But having said these, I was not doing a real "review" which should always have one variable changed to allow proper comparison, and I do not have a sound meter to calibrate the sound pressure level of each setup. So, you may want to see this as impressions rather than formal reviews - something which I never claim to be good at.

 Regarding power cords, I am using an Acrolink 6N-P4030 stress free cable on the Symphony. This is a high quality all copper cable which I felt will compliment the Symphony's resolved and neutral voicing. On the Grace M902, I was using a Crystal Cable Connect Power Cord which is a gold/silver/copper alloy and is extremely good to provide sparkling highs while maintaining overall balance.

 For interconnects, I am a big fan of Gabriel Gold cables and was using a Gabriel Gold Extreme MKII on the Symphony, and Gabriel Gold Revelation on the M902. The Revelation (MKI) is a tad more coherent and extended than the Extreme MKII but not enough to impose an audible difference in the comparison.

 From my mixes and matches, I feel that the Symphony responded better to power cords and interconnects than the Grace M902. 

 I hope this helps.
 Francis


----------



## dreamwhisper

Could I use this with music production software?
 Re: Pro Tools, Reason, Kontakt

 just not dj apps like Ableton Live?



 That's what I imagine anways.


----------



## tubaman

Got my Symphony today. Naturally, the first thing I did was to test the coax input. It worked perfectly. Having previously owned the Opera, it's pretty clear that the Symphony is one step up. And the black looks very cool.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tubaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Symphony today. Naturally, the first thing I did was to test the coax input. It worked perfectly. Having previously owned the Opera, it's pretty clear that the Symphony is one step up. And the black looks very cool._

 

Congratulations for your purchase, and welcome to the Symphony camp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 F. Lo


----------



## Richter Di

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tubaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Symphony today. Naturally, the first thing I did was to test the coax input. It worked perfectly. Having previously owned the Opera, it's pretty clear that the Symphony is one step up. And the black looks very cool._

 

Great to hear you are enjoying the Symphony. 
 After one had this step up in my experience you can't do without.


----------



## tubaman

Using the Symphony to drive the KRK active speakers made a night and day difference compare to using computer's analog out with Y-adapter.


----------



## khaos974

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tubaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Symphony today. Naturally, the first thing I did was to test the coax input. It worked perfectly. Having previously owned the Opera, it's pretty clear that the Symphony is one step up. And the black looks very cool._

 

How much metter is it if you only consider the amp section?


----------



## tubaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *khaos974* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much metter is it if you only consider the amp section?_

 

In the original comment (#344) I was referring to the amp section.


----------



## sling5s

How many Symphony owners purchased an after market power cord and found significant improvements? Does the Symphony really need one?
 Thinking of Iron Lung Jelly Fish. 

 thanks


----------



## Skylab

I used the Iron Lung Jellyfish. It worked well - not sure I would swear it made the Symphony sound better, but it isn't a lot of money, either.


----------



## revenge

My Clearer Audio Silver-line power cord (Wattgate, Furutech gold - the whole treat) brought noticeable improvements to the table: clearer (hence the name) sound, tighter bass, better soundstage and so on. 
 But you should definitely try for yourself before buying any cable, including the Clearer Audio line. Some people write pages about the "huge improvement" of a good mains cable over a cheap chinese kettle lead, while others swear it's pure placebo. If you feel there's not much of a change (or no change at all) with a given cable, then probably it isn't. It's entirely up to you to decide. 
 Most cheap cables I've tried have no effect on sound. Some are actually making it worse (a lack of dynamics, a flatter, boring sound).


----------



## sling5s

The one that I am currently using on the symphony is a typical computer power cord. Is this negatively effecting the sound quality? I mean the b&k amp on my home stereo and b&w subwoofer seemed all to look like a typical computer power cord.

 If aftermarket power cord like jelly fish is superior and necessary, I feel than I need to replace the all the power cord on my headphone amps and home stereo systems.

 Just don't want to go this way unless necessary. My wallet is already hurting.


----------



## sling5s

Decided to give the iron lunch jelly fish a try. thanks


----------



## DarKu

i'm using an custom power cord with an EMI/RFI Filter because i have a lot of wi-fi devices in my house 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Well, truth to be told i've seen a 5-8% improvment, and no more noise at all.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm using an custom power cord with an EMI/RFI Filter because i have a lot of wi-fi devices in my house 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Well, truth to be told i've seen a 5-8% improvment, and no more noise at all._

 

Interesting...I don't think I've ever seen one. Where did you get it?


----------



## DarKu

A friend of mine made it, the EMI/RFI filter is fit in a hammond metal case, power connetcors are furutech, also cable is double shielded. Forgot to mention that i do not have the Symphony, i have the Opera.
 He also can made power cords with Ferrites *AND* EMI filters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the most expensive ones


----------



## jirams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revenge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Clearer Audio Silver-line power cord (Wattgate, Furutech gold - the whole treat) brought noticeable improvements to the table: clearer (hence the name) sound, tighter bass, better soundstage and so on. 
 But you should definitely try for yourself before buying any cable, including the Clearer Audio line. Some people write pages about the "huge improvement" of a good mains cable over a cheap chinese kettle lead, while others swear it's pure placebo. If you feel there's not much of a change (or no change at all) with a given cable, then probably it isn't. It's entirely up to you to decide. 
*Most cheap cables I've tried have no effect on sound*. Some are actually making it worse (a lack of dynamics, a flatter, boring sound)._

 

Because not enough money has been spent to kick in the placebo - the more spent the more belief is generated.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jirams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because not enough money has been spent to kick in the placebo - the more spent the more belief is generated._

 

Very very true.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very very true. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I tend to agree with this. There is a reason cable-heads are vehemently against DBT. You cannot possibly tell me that each of Audioquest's (for example) 287 different cable lines are incrementally better than the one below it, but if you read cable reviews, that's exactly what they'll say.

 If I may quote the head engineer of a very large speaker company: "There is a lot of bulls**t in the cable industry."


----------



## revenge

This is not the time, nor the place to start a flame about the matter. You probably have your beliefs and your experience, I have mine. However I bet you didn't test any of the aftermarket good mains cables, a priori assuming that they are nothing but overpriced fairy tailes. Even so, I am not going to tell you that you are right or wrong, nor am I going to suggest I hold the answers (I really don't). I will only give you the same commonsense, friendly advice: *try* before you make an opinion. Don't sell me physics theories (been there, done that), don't give me poor examples of cables (there are plenty of junk products on the market, like in any other industry), just tell me you've tested a Clearer Audio, a high end Russ Andrews and so on *at your home*, *in your rig*, and the cable didn't make any difference at all. If you've already done it, respect. If you haven't, not much point in expressing your opinion here, is it?


----------



## katalyst^

I bought on impulse a Symphony. Could anyone help me with post purchase dissonance by assuring me that I was right in thinking that it is superior to a DAC1 both in terms of the DAC and the headamp, and at least comparable to the DA11, M902, and others in the class?

 Cheers


----------



## IPodPJ

Well I own the Opera and I know the Symphony has a better DAC. The Opera's DAC is good, but not great. Even though I haven't heard the Symphony, I'm pretty sure it won't compare to a DAC1 or any of the others you mentioned in regards to the DAC section. The amp section is undoubtedly better than any of those other models.


----------



## IPodPJ

Good power cords are vital for the Opera to show its true ability, so I'm sure the same holds true for the Symphony. And if there are any naysayers here, please come see me at CanJam and compare my equipment using my very good power cords with cheap cords or stock cords. I'll let anyone who wishes hear for himself if they make a dramatic difference or not.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *katalyst^* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought on impulse a Symphony. Could anyone help me with post purchase dissonance by assuring me that I was right in thinking that it is superior to a DAC1 both in terms of the DAC and the headamp, and at least comparable to the DA11, M902, and others in the class?

 Cheers_

 

I haven't read much good of late about the DAC1's amp section, just for the record.


----------



## Monago

This thread has sparked a VERY large amount of interest in the Symphony for me, as it would pair with my newly acquired hd650's quite nicely. I have absolutely no way of paying for it at the moment, but this is my next upgrade whenever I can afford it. 

 I would also like to mention that it was rather disappointing to see a generally positive, insightful thread turn into somewhat of a fiasco. Although I understand the frustration of the fiasco-ee to a certain extent and certainly sympathize on some level with his/her situation, the complaints voiced clearly surpassed any meaningful or productive level and ventured into the realm of "trolling", especially given the vast amount of potential solutions offered along with a possible *complete* refund thrown into the mix. All, while potentially hurting the reputation of a company which is generally held in VERY high regard amongst this community, made me rather angry. For every reason mentioned before my post and those stated above, I find this behavior quite unacceptable.

 I apologize for digging up something that seems to now be dead... but to have a thread, or THE Corda Symphony thread marred because of that behavior is ridiculous.


----------



## TStewart422

I'm considering getting one of these. My music taste is in rock, heavy metal, prog-metal, and The Beatles. My headphones are in my sig: Grado 225s and Sennheiser HD650s mainly. Will this amp be a good fit for me?


----------



## geremy

How does the symphony compare to the headroom ultra desktop? they seem to have almos the exact same functions. I really like the digital volume control of the symphony as well as the rate lights, but the modular aspect of headroom products is something else to consider. Also I haven't heard of any power supply sensitivity issues with the ultra desktop, and the stereophile jitter measurements were very respectable.

 I'm still also considering the DA11, but it doesn't provide any analog inputs which is a huge bummer.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear headfellows,

 As some of you may have noticed the newest SYMPHONY models on my website have the addition .2 at the end of their name.

 The only difference to the original version of the amp is the receiver section of the DAC. People who have read this thread will know that occasionaly problems did occur through the coaxial input when mains power was polluted. These problem were found to originate from the behaviour of the S/PDIF receiver chip that was used (DIR 9001 made by Texas Instruments). The discussion was entensively discussed with an engineer of the manufacturer but no real solution was found.

 The SYMPHONY amplifiers that are currently being sold are therefore modified by adding a small PCB between coaxial input and the receiver chip that contains another S/PDIF receiver chip, this time the WM8004 made by Wolfson. Experiments have shown that this chip is much more resistant to interruptions of the S/PDIF input stream and is able to "restore" most of the missing contents. This solves at least 90% of all the interruptions caused by the DIR9001.

 People who still have the old version of the SYMPHONY and do suffer from those problems at the coaxial S/PDIF input should contact me. It is possible to have your amp updated on warranty.

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## DoReMi

I'm almost ready to buy the Symphony but I have a couple o things I really need an answer for:
 1. Will the Symphony properly drive any Beyer 600 homs.
 2. After reading Skylab excellent review on Concerto, and now knowing that the T1 can be driven no problem by this amp, I wonder if that has to do with the new design (amp) of Concerto or I can assume would be the same for the Symphony ?
 3. will I have any problem with the gain power of the Symphony with the T1?

 Thanks for your time


----------



## Bengt77

Also, will the Corda Symphony, with the pending release of the Corda Concerto and it's supposedly upgraded _amp_ internals compared to the Symphony, be upgraded? Will there be a Symphony.3 soon?


----------



## Noumenon

I have the Corda Symphony.2 and with the Sennheiser HD600 (300 Ω) I must use the higher gain setting and still, I typically find myself listening at max volume and wishing for a little more. I am over-all pleased with this amp though and my try another HP.


----------



## DoReMi

Noumenon, that makes mw worry then since 650's are 300 homs and T1 600 homs


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Noumenon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the Corda Symphony.2 and with the Sennheiser HD600 (300 Ω) I must use the higher gain setting and still, I typically find myself listening at max volume and wishing for a little more. I am over-all pleased with this amp though and my try another HP._

 

It looks like you have a source that has low voltage output ? With a normal source which output 2 - 2.2v rms the Symphony shouldn't have any problem driving the HD650 for my ears.

 Another factor is the recording level of the material (CD) that can also affect the "loudness".

 Just my 2 cents.

 F. Lo


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoReMi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Noumenon, that makes mw worry then since 650's are 300 homs and T1 600 homs_

 

Actually the T1 is pretty easy to drive. Despite its higher impedance the T1 is a pretty efficient headphones so many of my amps can drive it with ease.

 F. Lo


----------



## DoReMi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually the T1 is pretty easy to drive. Despite its higher impedance the T1 is a pretty efficient headphones so many of my amps can drive it with ease.

 F. Lo_

 

thanks fkclo, after reading Skylab review on Concerto, I was wondering if the new amp had more power to that one of Symphony, because if so I'd have to go with the Concerto\Deckstage combo instead of the Symphony wich I'd actually prefer for space issues


----------



## Noumenon

I would wait for opinion of someone with experience specifically with the T1/Symphony then.


----------



## DoReMi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Noumenon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would wait for opinion of someone with experience specifically with the T1/Symphony then._

 

you're right I'll start patiently waiting since the T1 wont be here for another 10 weeks


----------



## Noumenon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks like you have a source that has low voltage output ? With a normal source which output 2 - 2.2v rms the Symphony shouldn't have any problem driving the HD650 for my ears._

 

I use optical out from a desktop. I may have to try another source. Thanks.


----------



## Jan Meier

Dear Noumenon,

 "I typically find myself listening at max volume and wishing for a little more."

 "I use optical out from a desktop. I may have to try another source."

 Have you made sure that all (!!) digital volume controls in your system are maximized? Not only check the control in the media-player but also in the mixer and/or device driver settings (of your soundcard) Using a PC this is a very common cause of low volumes. And quality of sound also suffers!

 Normally using max volume and a HD-600 would make your ears bleed!

 Cheers

 Jan


----------



## Noumenon

Yes, my sound driver control panel and software player (including iTunes vol adjustment for each song) is at maxed volume, naturally. I get relatively the same volume from my CDP --> Symphony --> HD600.

 Perhaps I'm a little deaf or not used to zero distortion at max volume; in any case as I indicated I am overall pleased with the Symphony, and would buy again,... but I listen at max volume at the higher gain setting (lower gain is right out) with the Senn HD600'.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoReMi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks fkclo, after reading Skylab review on Concerto, I was wondering if the new amp had more power to that one of Symphony, because if so I'd have to go with the Concerto\Deckstage combo instead of the Symphony wich I'd actually prefer for space issues_

 

I tend to think the StageDAC + Concerto combo would be half a notch up the Symphony and would be the flag ship combo from Meier Audio. The StageDAC and Concerto has the same design and footprint so I am pretty sure they are stackable to become up impressive compact desktop single-end setup.

 F. Lo


----------



## khaos974

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Noumenon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, my sound driver control panel and software player (including iTunes vol adjustment for each song) is at maxed volume, naturally. I get relatively the same volume from my CDP --> Symphony --> HD600.

 Perhaps I'm a little deaf or not used to zero distortion at max volume; in any case as I indicated I am overall pleased with the Symphony, and would buy again,... but I listen at max volume at the higher gain setting (lower gain is right out) with the Senn HD600'._

 

Have a friend or several listen to your rig at your comfort volume, use another headphone (another HD600/650 or just a high impedance low sensitivity headphone), the problem could be your listening habits

 If you have a portable source and a minijack <-> rca cable, try it, it could be both sources.

 Verify that the cable you use are not broken, clean the contacts.

 If you still have a problem, it's time to use the warranty and send it back for repair.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoReMi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm almost ready to buy the Symphony but I have a couple o things I really need an answer for:
 1. Will the Symphony properly drive any Beyer 600 homs.
 2. After reading Skylab excellent review on Concerto, and now knowing that the T1 can be driven no problem by this amp, I wonder if that has to do with the new design (amp) of Concerto or I can assume would be the same for the Symphony ?
 3. will I have any problem with the gain power of the Symphony with the T1?

 Thanks for your time_

 

I'm in the same boat. The Concerto is pictured but no details on i/o/. I assume it does not have a DAC?

 I don't really need a DAC but an extra would be handy. Hopefully we can get a little more info as the price is right.

 DC


----------



## kenta

What is the status of the Symphony when the concerto comes out? Is it still the top model from Meier-Audio? 

 Judging from that the Concerto has similar but improved sonic than the Symphony and the Meier-best StageDAC, this combination can be presumed to be the best thing Meier-Audio is going to offer. I feel this combination is attractive and may consider moving to this path as well. 

 Jan, could you comment a bit on your product line-up?


----------



## Noumenon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *khaos974* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have a friend or several listen to your rig at your comfort volume, use another headphone (another HD600/650 or just a high impedance low sensitivity headphone), the problem could be your listening habits

 If you have a portable source and a minijack <-> rca cable, try it, it could be both sources.

 Verify that the cable you use are not broken, clean the contacts.

 If you still have a problem, it's time to use the warranty and send it back for repair._

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 I never meant to imply that something was wrong with the amp. I posted to offer DoReMi a gauge on volume level with the HD600.

 I indicated that I listen at max volume with high gain and still wish for "a little more", which does not imply that the volume is low.


----------



## Noumenon

@Kenta, What volume do you do serious listening at with the Symphony, say with the Senns. Do you use low gain or high gain?


----------



## kenta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Noumenon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Kenta, What volume do you do serious listening at with the Symphony, say with the Senns. Do you use low gain or high gain?_

 

I always use high-gain. Low-gain is not at all possible to drive a Sennheiser. It is ok for my Shure though. 

 With high-gain and HD800/650, I found the volume at 10 O'clock to 2 O'clock can drive both Sennheisers at a proper level for serious listening.


----------



## DoReMi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kenta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the status of the Symphony when the concerto comes out? Is it still the top model from Meier-Audio? 

 Judging from that the Concerto has similar but improved sonic than the Symphony and the Meier-best StageDAC, this combination can be presumed to be the best thing Meier-Audio is going to offer. I feel this combination is attractive and may consider moving to this path as well. 

 Jan, could you comment a bit on your product line-up?_

 

I'm very interested too in finding out what the sonic differences really are.
 Anyone at this one?


----------



## XLR1

I am seriously thinking about getting a Meier Corda Concerto as my primary headphone amp and keeping my Travagans Red as a meditation or bedroom amp. Does anyone have an opinion how the Beyer 600 Ohm T1 would work with the new Corda Concerto? (Mine T1 is due to arrive day after tomorrow.)

 I really like everything I read about the Concerto, especially Skylab's excellent review, and the price for the quality seems like a relative bargain. However, I am concerned about the complaints by a few Meier amps owners about a lack of ability to produce high volume with 600 ohm headphones. Occasionally, I do like my rock loud. Or is the volume issue only that the volume knob must be at high levels to get loud volume? If Noumenon has volume issues with a Senn 650, the T1 might have even more constrained. 
 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

There are two gain settings on the Concerto. If you listen to the T1 at more than 12:00 on the volume control in the high-gain mode, you won't have to worry about how either of them sound - you will be deaf before very long


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XLR1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I am concerned about the complaints by a few Meier amps owners about a lack of ability to produce high volume with 600 ohm headphones._

 

It's a purely psychological phenomenon: People don't like to see the volume control near the maximum, even though there's a higher gain setting at their disposal if need be. E.g. the Symphony's low-gain mode is relatively low-gain, so the HD 800 needs a 2-4 o'clock position most of the time. In exchange the step to the high-gain mode is quite large. I never need the high-gain mode, though, and don't care for the volume-knob position.
.


----------



## XLR1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a purely psychological phenomenon: People don't like to see the volume control near the maximum, even though there's a higher gain setting at their disposal if need be. E.g. the Symphony's low-gain mode is relatively low-gain, so the HD 800 needs a 2-4 o'clock position most of the time. In exchange the step to the high-gain mode is quite large. I never need the high-gain mode, though, and don't care for the volume-knob position.
._

 

Thanks Skylab and JaZZ. I misunderstood the earlier low vs. high gain aspect of the discussion. Got it. Thank you.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kenta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always use high-gain. Low-gain is not at all possible to drive a Sennheiser. It is ok for my Shure though. 

 With high-gain and HD800/650, I found the volume at 10 O'clock to 2 O'clock can drive both Sennheisers at a proper level for serious listening._

 

I tried out the HD800 on the Symphony this past Saturday and I had the volume pot a few clicks below maximum on high gain....


----------



## Noumenon

I can't imagine listening with a Senn on low gain (at least with prog rock)! As I said I am at max volume on high gain, and for certain music want a little more. Zero to do with knob placement "psychological phenomenon".

 I AM happy with the Corda Symphony however.


----------



## stocklaz

This is my second time to read this post, the first time I read this was last year when I was thinking to get my first desktop amp, and the one I picked is Symphony and it is still my main headphone amp as well as pre-amp in my home.

 The symphony gave me countless excitement and enjoyment. This is a function-king monster for around $1300, I can do nearly everything that I need: push my headphone well, pre-amp for my active speaker A5, my iMac DAC and my PS3 digital out. That is a great news for everyone who cannot afford the space for separated DAC and amp, as well as one less power cable and inter-connector that may hurt your wallet even more.

 I would like to share a bit of experiment after around 8 months of usage of this very amp.

 My setting:
 Source: iMac,
 DAC / AMP: Apogee Duet 1394 connection -> RCA connect to Symphony. Symphony USB or Toslink connection to iMac
 Headphone: ED8, M-pro, K702 with ALO cable
 Speaker: Audioengine A5N

 As you can see most of my headphones are low impedance headphone. So most of the time I am using low gain setting, sometime I even need to use the "left socket + low gain" to get a better volume control for my headphone. ED8 and K702 sound great in Symphony, the M-pro will be a bit bright but still acceptable for me. 

 Overall the experiment with Symphony is great without any problem. The only "weakness" of it is that cannot give your the tone of tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Even now I will going to pick Symphony rather than StageDAC + Concerto combo, because it save my space (living in Tokyo your house will never be BIG), save my power socket space, and save time to pick a right interconnector. Yes, I am a lazy but demanding user


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## mountkailas

Hi stocklaz,
   
  I am a music-friend from germany/Munich.
   
  I use also a Corda Symphony from Jan Meier as a pre-amp for earphones and I use like you this pre-amp for my active Loudspeakers (K+H O110). Only for information: My Earphone is a Sennheiser HD 800. My Computer is also an iMac.
   
  So, why i am writing to you?. A Music-Seller told me about the Apogee Duett and his fantastic Audio-Quality. The first thing was to google about this Source. And I find you!. So, there are not so many User, who have the Corda Symphony - but you have this great thing also - and you have the apogee duett. Hit for me!.
   
  What do you think?. Is the Apogee necessary for a better quality as the Symphony allonly already have?. I think, the Symphony has already an A/C Converter inside?.
   
  Hm...., i am really interested about your equipment and I do not unterstand how you connect the sources. Is it so, that you connect the Apogee with Firewire to the mac an then you connect the Apogee via Cinch-Cable to the Symphony (which Inputs on the rear?) and then you connect the Symphony via toslink to the imac?. Have you plugged the loudspeakers directy in the Symphony or in the Apogee?. Many Questions, i know - but would you be so kindly an send me an exactly layout how i have to connect the sources and your experience with and without the Apogee Duett. 
   
  I hope, you get my message and you have time an fun to answer me - this will be great!
   
  Thanks a lot and greeting from germany, Johannes
   
  P.S. For what do you use the M2tech HiFace?


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## Yuceka

I know this has probably been discussed in the Amp Recommendations for Audeze LCD-2 forum but any thread related to LCD-2s is really long and it is quite tedious to find the information there 
   
  So my question is for those who own LCD-2 and Symphony at the same time and whether they like the combo or not... 
   
  Thanks in advance...


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## loserica

I heard only Prehead. I would have liked to make a comparison with this amplifier.


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## MrSpenkelink

What a disappointing read this thread has been. You have my sympathies Dr Meier.


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## Yuceka

Absolutely agree! I read all the posts in this thread and Jan's honesty, all of his efforts to communicate clearly, willingness to solve any issues and his outstanding customer service are worth mentioning. He has replied all of my emails within 10 minutes! That's just amazing. Despite some of the bad vibes in this thread, I am looking forward to purchasing products from Jan (hopefully a Symphony) 
  
  Quote: 





mrspenkelink said:


> What a disappointing read this thread has been. You have my sympathies Dr Meier.


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## kyan

He makes good amps


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## Red Jacket Mike

Quote:


yuceka said:


> I know this has probably been discussed in the Amp Recommendations for Audeze LCD-2 forum but any thread related to LCD-2s is really long and it is quite tedious to find the information there
> 
> So my question is for those who own LCD-2 and Symphony at the same time and whether they like the combo or not...
> 
> Thanks in advance...


 
  Bringing this thread back up--I've noticed that the Symphony price on the Meier website has been reduced to $1120.00; is this because perhaps a new model is expected soon?
   
  I'm wondering what the differences would be between using the Symphony, and using the Concerto/Stage DAC combination?  The price of the Symphony would make me want to use it alone; and, it could still be used as a preamp, and/or in conjunction with another DAC if so desired.
   
  And, to repeat the above poster's question, is anyone out there using the Symphony with LCD-2s?


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## Fastnbulbous

I've been wanting this amp. Love the looks -- have the Cantante 2. Unfortunately it's discontinued. I don't see anything on Meier's site that replaces it.


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## Fastnbulbous

Quote: 





> The SYMPHONY.2 indeed is sold-out completely. I'm currently working on a
> new top-of-the-range amplifier. There are no real plans for a combined
> DAC-amplifier yet.
> 
> ...


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