# Balanced TRRS Connector on Future Hifiman IEMs



## Nankai

We decide to use 3.5mm balanced TRRS connectors in our future mid to high price level IEMs. For headphone amplifier manufacturers, TRRS jack is much easier to get. Hope amplifier builders will be interested in.


----------



## LevA

what's the benefit of using balance trrs?
  considering all other manufacturers (AT, JH, Senn, Sure etc.) using normal headphone jacks, I doubt amp manufacturers would change their jacks and limit their potential market base.


----------



## ClieOS

I don't know much about balanced audio but if what I understand is correct, you can connect a regular TRS to a balanced TRRS output and all you have to lose is the headroom (and along with it the benifit of having a balanced setup), assuming the R- and L- is going to the ground.


----------



## LevA

I think the RE-zero is using that adaptor. looks similar to double splitter adaptor and is not very small. most were not happy considering there are no daps or amps that use balanced TRRS, so practically making it unnecessary. I guess hifiman will go down this route, so we should probably expect 602 to have TRRS?


----------



## qusp

please dont, there is a world of quality connectors out there much more suitable for high end portable audio, you dont have to use that.
   
  why is every single manufacture bringing out their own idea, why didnt people get together and choose the best option that suited the purpose moving forward, instead of everyone releasing a product in isolation and forcing the customer to get new and different cables or adapters for everything? there is even a new series of mini 4 pin XLR from neutrik like those on LCD-2 that would work. this is like VHS vs beta al over again, but much worse, I knew this would happen  I can think of 4 different interfaces being used at the moment by different companies
   
  I'm quite dismayed with the choices by manufacturers in this area. it really doesnt take much thought to take the route less travelled and talk to one another. there are suitable compact locking multipin connectors by lemo, odu, neutrik, amphenol
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, just to name a few
   
  this is the small 0 size lemo, these are not all that cheap when bought separately, but in numbers would be better, but they are small (smaller than a mini actually), come in up to 8 pin in this size (JH3A anyone??) are rugged, locking with push-pull ring, they are keyed so cannot be inserted incorrectly and there is also a cheaper polymer version the same size that is interchangeable. as you can see they also come in all the variants we need, male and female cable inline and male or female chassis mount with PCB mount being an option there too. The female socket below is fitted with the optional dust cover that is springloaded and covers the opening when there is no cable inserted, it can easily be removed if desired. it also has a reasonable (but not over the top) size cable exit with adjustable strain relief collet. Sexy as well IMO
   
  as a whole, headphones and portable amps with balanced output are not a budget offering and neither the aftermarket cables to suit. very few aftermarket cables would fit in such a connector as above and there is not an alternative 4 pin mini that they will. that one is even molded, so of no use to upgrade cables or DIYERS
   
   
  the customer is supposed to win out of this new era, having a different cable for every headphone and amp does not sound like progress to me.
   
  sorry for the rant, but I saw this happening a long time ago and made numbers of posts on the matter; its frustrating me to see it becoming reality. we need to get together and sort this out NOW, before its a big mess. I think a committee needs to be formed to move forward. below is just one option and as I said the polymer version will fit the same socket provided the same number of pins are used.


----------



## jageur272

Actually, shorting the two negative channels in a balanced amp risks damaging the amp...


----------



## qusp

indeed, depending on how it is set up it could result in the inverting opamp pins being shorted to ground


----------



## jelt2359

well it would seem we missed potentially a good opportunity at Canjam.


----------



## Very Legal

I think detachable cables would be a better solution for this. Preferably with a standard plug at the earphone end for all iem`s and full sized cans too. I guess the last part is a little far out but still something to think about.


----------



## forever1

[size=10pt]Why use an L shaped plug on a connector that 99% of the people using it will need to use an adapter to use your IEMs?[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]L shape + adapter = snag point. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


[/size]


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





jelt2359 said:


> well it would seem we missed potentially a good opportunity at Canjam.


 

 for manufacturers to talk about this issue before it gets out of hand?? absolutely!! I mean sure I understand companies want to keep a certain amount under wraps, but I think its fairly safe to assume that many of the higher end amp manufacturers will be working on balanced portable systems, so there is no surprise there and that is the only thing that would need to be admitted, other than that all they would be doing is agreeing on a format for the connector, no trade secrets there


----------



## El_Doug

Qusp, I agreed with you a year ago, and I still agree with you today. 
   
  It brings my piss to a boil thinking about how the lack of cooperation between relatively few, small companies is screwing all of us (pretty much their entire early-adopter market) over :/


----------



## justin w.

Quote: 





qusp said:


> indeed, depending on how it is set up it could result in the inverting opamp pins being shorted to ground


 

 that's how it should be setup if the TRRS connector is used.  fortunately, Fang chose the correct pin-out for this.  the amp can then be designed to only need 1 output connector for TRS (unbalanced) and TRRS (balanced)
   
  http://books.google.com/books?id=dunqt1rt4sAC&lpg=PA482&ots=oUxQpqbGXa&dq=cross-coupled%20howland&pg=PA482#v=onepage&q=cross-coupled%20howland&f=false
   
  ^ have not tried this.  i do prefer the idea of TRRS because then very thin amps can still be built.  the Lemo connectors are too expensive and labor intensive to be practical.  the mini-XLR are a lot bigger than would be expected for portable amp sizes today.  the 4-pin square connector is not designed for repeated insertions, according to its manufacturer.  they warned against using it for a headphone jack.  but i think there are still far more significant ways than unbalanced->balanced conversion to improve portable audio, and what connector is made "standard" is not really a big issue


----------



## Jamey Warren

My concern with using a TRRS connector is that a lot of headsets are built with this type of connection for microphone signal.  Plugging in a headset into to a portable balanced amp could cause some problems for the headset owner. 
   
  I'm not saying this isn't a good idea.  Just voicing what my concern would be.


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





justin w. said:


> that's how it should be setup if the TRRS connector is used.  fortunately, Fang chose the correct pin-out for this.  the amp can then be designed to only need 1 output connector for TRS (unbalanced) and TRRS (balanced)
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dunqt1rt4sAC&lpg=PA482&ots=oUxQpqbGXa&dq=cross-coupled%20howland&pg=PA482#v=onepage&q=cross-coupled%20howland&f=false
> 
> ^ have not tried this.  i do prefer the idea of TRRS because then very thin amps can still be built.  the Lemo connectors are too expensive and labor intensive to be practical.  the mini-XLR are a lot bigger than would be expected for portable amp sizes today.  the 4-pin square connector is not designed for repeated insertions, according to its manufacturer.  they warned against using it for a headphone jack.  but i think there are still far more significant ways than unbalanced->balanced conversion to improve portable audio, and what connector is made "standard" is not really a big issue


 
   
  I realize that justin, I was trying to be kind to one of our other designers.....
   
  unfortunately every one I have seen so far is tiny cheap molded plastic (no offense Fang), some OEM cables come with gold and are still tiny and cheap with a 2 micron gold plate....  that is totally unusable for any kind of aftermarket cable and people do tend to like the odd aftermarket cable around here I have noticed. there is not enough of a market in our segment to force manufacturers to make something decent. if you have a ground connection as anything but the tip, at least one of the other terminals would be shorted to ground on insert and removal which is something I now enjoy not having to worry about.
   
  there are cheaper than the lemo as I said and the lemo polymer versions are actually not that pricey even in small numbers. I think if you asked people you would find that they would happily pay a few dollars more to have a better balanced connector than the above when buying a 300-500 dollar amp with 100-400 dollar cable and 200-1500 headphones (remember all you need to change is the output connector, which is the cheapest of the lot and is available in PCB mount, what could be easier for manufacture? I certainly have no problem soldering them) there is literally thousands of multipin connectors in the mouser and elfa catalogs I only mentioned a few
   
  and justin, if your agenda is slim amps, then fine and if your agenda doesnt cover balanced then why is it of any importance? and BTW, i'm not talking about a balanced conversion stage, just using the balanced output that all modern dac chips are designed and tuned for. pretty much ANY THD+N or DNR spec quoted for a dac nowadays is for balanced operation and without it you either must add another opamp summing stage or lose a significant amount of performance. 
   
  like it or not, balanced is very popular, it will continue to gain ground and until a quality standard that is usable is reached, there will be a big mess. dacs will continue to be released with differential output as that is how the best performance is gained; both to my ears and on every datasheet I have seen for a dac released in the last decade recommends a differential IV stage there are very real benefits to these ears and there must be something to it, or the component manufacturers would not be pursuing it.
   
  as a nice biproduct, those using phones as source, which is becoming more popular and with digital out on iphone v4 pretty much guaranteed, it will continue to do so. with balanced they will not have to worry about GSM ping due to CMMR quashing it to inaudible levels


----------



## warp08

The issue here is real estate, the new balanced GanQi amp module will have to somehow fit into the standard HM-801 chassis.  Please stand by for more comments related to this by Fang attached to a multi-DAP comparison review being posted tonight.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Mephistopheles

This may be a bit OT, but does someone know of a source from where I could buy a TRRS to TRS 3.5mm adapter? I recently RMA'ed my RE262 and got my replacement RE262 with a balanced TRRS plug, with no adapter to convert it to TRS provided!
  Head-Direct should atleast include an adapter with it! I'm nto able to find it anywhere, and hence I can;t use my RE262. It really is a no-brainer that there is no need for a balanced TRRS plug for a portable audio product!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mephistopheles said:


> This may be a bit OT, but does someone know of a source from where I could buy a TRRS to TRS 3.5mm adapter? I recently RMA'ed my RE262 and got my replacement RE262 with a balanced TRRS plug, with no adapter to convert it to TRS provided!
> Head-Direct should atleast include an adapter with it! I'm nto able to find it anywhere, and hence I can;t use my RE262. It really is a no-brainer that there is no need for a balanced TRRS plug for a portable audio product!


 

 Why not just ask Head Direct for one?


----------



## Mephistopheles

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Why not just ask Head Direct for one?


 

 I did, they asked me $25 for it. I'm not going to pay them $25 for something I should have got for free.
   
  I asked them if I could purchase something else from them and pay the shipping charge for it, could they include this adapter in the same parcel itself so that I do not have to pay shipping charges for both the adapter and the thing I purchase, they said No.


----------



## ClieOS

Well, that sucks. Anyway, I am not sure who actually sell TRRS to TRS converter, but you can make one fairly easily or just reterminate the RE262 (if you don't mind the warranty). 3.5mm TRRS isn't really easy to solder but you can source an already made TRRS to TRRS converter from MEElectronics and reterminate one end to TRS plug. Also, try posting a WTB thread in the for sale forum once you have enough post count.


----------



## Mephistopheles

Quote: 





clieos said:


> 3.5mm TRRS isn't really easy to solder but you can source an already made TRRS to TRRS converter from MEElectronics and reterminate one end to TRS plug.


 

 Do you know of any guide/tutorial from where I could see and do this?


----------



## Mython

Looking at the new HM-901 advert banner, here on Head-fi, I see TRRS is to be implemented on this 801-replacement DAP. I really hope that inadvertently knocking the 'TRRS-Balanced' switch to 'balanced' setting isn't going to result in a shorted amp stage, or the 901 is going to be the DAP equivalent of a train wreck, P.R.-wise.


----------



## bmiamihk

If it will bring an improvement I am for it!


----------



## Raddiqal11

Hey guys. This is a super old thread but I feel here's the best place to ask this question. I'm a small time cable maker and recently made a balanced 3.5mm just like the hifiman jack. When I plug it into a normal unbalanced output I get almost no sound on the right side. It will only work when I push on in from a side. However I'm sure it's not a problem with the soldering joints as I've pulled and tested for continuity while shaking and pushing and there's perfect continuity. 

So will plugging in a balanced 3.5mm into unbalanced outputs give you a bad connection or some sorts?


----------



## BRCMRGN

raddiqal11 said:


> Hey guys. This is a super old thread but I feel here's the best place to ask this question. I'm a small time cable maker and recently made a balanced 3.5mm just like the hifiman jack. When I plug it into a normal unbalanced output I get almost no sound on the right side. It will only work when I push on in from a side. However I'm sure it's not a problem with the soldering joints as I've pulled and tested for continuity while shaking and pushing and there's perfect continuity.
> 
> So will plugging in a balanced 3.5mm into unbalanced outputs give you a bad connection or some sorts?


 
 There are two types of 3.5mm TRRS plugs - HIFIMAN Balanced and any headphones/earphones with a remote control/mic.  If you plug your balanced TRRS cable into a true TRS jack (like on an amp) you will be fine (R- and L- will both connect to the common -). If you plug into a smartphone or an iAnything or a DAP that supports a remote/mic, the fun starts.  On those devices, the 4th segment on jack is for the remote/mic and your balanced TRRS cable is using that as a ground for the right channel, so only the left channel works. The best solution is to make a TRRS to TRS adapter for connecting to devices supporting remote/mic.


----------



## Raddiqal11

brcmrgn said:


> There are two types of 3.5mm TRRS plugs - HIFIMAN Balanced and any headphones/earphones with a remote control/mic.  If you plug your balanced TRRS cable into a true TRS jack (like on an amp) you will be fine (R- and L- will both connect to the common -). If you plug into a smartphone or an iAnything or a DAP that supports a remote/mic, the fun starts.  On those devices, the 4th segment on jack is for the remote/mic and your balanced TRRS cable is using that as a ground for the right channel, so only the left channel works. The best solution is to make a TRRS to TRS adapter for connecting to devices supporting remote/mic.




I see thanks for the reply. But I've tried it with the ihifi 770C player which does not support mic and still the same problem. I have to press on it to the side to get a connection. My only guess is that the jack is imperfect and the right ground sleeve is abit small and require some force to get contact


----------



## ClieOS

raddiqal11 said:


> Hey guys. This is a super old thread but I feel here's the best place to ask this question. I'm a small time cable maker and recently made a balanced 3.5mm just like the hifiman jack. *When I plug it into a normal unbalanced output I get almost no sound on the right side*. It will only work when I push on in from a side. However I'm sure it's not a problem with the soldering joints as I've pulled and tested for continuity while shaking and pushing and there's perfect continuity.
> 
> So will plugging in a balanced 3.5mm into unbalanced outputs give you a bad connection or some sorts?


 
  
 Having no sound on the right channel is NORMAL when you plug a HiFiman style balanced cable to a unbalanced socket. This is because in a typical TRS socket, the ground contact usually is positioned around the same area as the 2nd ring of a TRRS plug. This means the ground on a TRS (unbalanced) socket is only connecting to the ground of the left channel of the TRRS (balanced) plug, where the ground for the right channel (the sleeve of the TRRS plug) is not connected - no connection = no sound on the right channel.
  
 As for why when you push it with force you will get sound - that's because most socket and plug are not perfect and there will always be some room to move around. You simply have applied enough force to push the ground contact on the TRS socket to make contact with both ground on the TRRS plug. Mind you - applying force like this might eventually cause the TRS socket to fail. I strongly advice against doing this.
  
  
  


raddiqal11 said:


> I see thanks for the reply. But I've tried it with the ihifi 770C player which does not support mic and still the same problem. I have to press on it to the side to get a connection. *My only guess is that the jack is imperfect and the right ground sleeve is abit small and require some force to get contact*


 
  
 No, It is perfect in the sense that you should NOT get any sound on the right channel. But you just use brute force to make it happen.
  
 The only way you can plug a balanced plug into a unbalanced socket and yet still got both channel is that when the unbalanced socket is actually TRRS but with the 2nd ring and sleeve soldered together.


----------



## Raddiqal11

@ClieOS thanks for the swift reply! I can sleep in peace now


----------



## nbakid2000

Question: If I plug a TRRS balanced plug into a TRS adapter and stick it into a non-balanced output, will that affect/destroy anything or will it work normally out of both channels with no adverse effects? The reason being is I have Senn 600 headphones with a balanced cable going into a 3.5 mm TRRS plug (HiFi Man style), and I'd like to put that into a 1/4 stereo plug adapter so I can put it into my equipment (instead of switching headphone cables every time I switch equipment).


----------



## BRCMRGN

clieos said:


> Having no sound on the right channel is NORMAL when you plug a HiFiman style balanced cable to a unbalanced socket. This is because in a typical TRS socket, the ground contact usually is positioned around the same area as the 2nd ring of a TRRS plug. This means the ground on a TRS (unbalanced) socket is only connecting to the ground of the left channel of the TRRS (balanced) plug, where the ground for the right channel (the sleeve of the TRRS plug) is not connected - no connection = no sound on the right channel.
> 
> As for why when you push it with force you will get sound - that's because most socket and plug are not perfect and there will always be some room to move around. You simply have applied enough force to push the ground contact on the TRS socket to make contact with both ground on the TRRS plug. Mind you - applying force like this might eventually cause the TRS socket to fail. I strongly advice against doing this.
> 
> ...


 
 We are both half right.  I encountered this very early on with my very first balanced IEMs (RE252).  The amps that I tried plugging into directly worked (of course, I only had one or two at the time).  So I just did a little experiment.  RE600 (balanced TRRS) plugged into Chord Mojo (source - optical from AK120) plays only on the right channel. Same RE600 plugged into Vorzuge Pure II amp (source - line out from AK120) play both channels.  My original post should have said SOME amps.  
  
 I had this same conversation with Peter from Double Helix Cable. I had ordered a bunch of short converter cables and he didn't make the balanced 3.5mm TRRS to unbalanced TRS, insisting that it wasn't needed (at least on the amps that he was familiar with) and I explained about all the DAPs and smart devices that would need the converter cable because of the remote/mic issue.


----------



## scorp32

BRCMRGN said:


> We are both half right.  I encountered this very early on with my very first balanced IEMs (RE252).  The amps that I tried plugging into directly worked (of course, I only had one or two at the time).  So I just did a little experiment.  RE600 (balanced TRRS) plugged into Chord Mojo (source - optical from AK120) plays only on the right channel. Same RE600 plugged into Vorzuge Pure II amp (source - line out from AK120) play both channels.  My original post should have said SOME amps.
> 
> I had this same conversation with Peter from Double Helix Cable. I had ordered a bunch of short converter cables and he didn't make the balanced 3.5mm TRRS to unbalanced TRS, insisting that it wasn't needed (at least on the amps that he was familiar with) and I explained about all the DAPs and smart devices that would need the converter cable because of the remote/mic issue.




Hi, I know this is an old thread and my question is probably stupid.  

I am looking for a DAP and I've noticed many have the 2.5mm TRRS balanced out.  I have already bought some cables that are unbalanced with a 3.5mm TRS plug.  Would there be any consequences in plugging my cables into a balanced output using a 2.5mm male > 3.5mm female interconnect?  

Will the SQ suffer anything?  

I don't want to purchase another set of cables (balanced) just for my DAP's.  And of course I can always use the unbalanced 3.5mm output as well, but after some heavy reading, it seems that balanced output has better soundstage and clarity?

Thank you for your expertise and time!


----------



## Ynot1

Make your trs into balance and then use a trrs to trs adapter. This way you can be ready for both at anytime. A couple of places sells them. You can make tjis happen yourself in theory. But soldering tiny wires into tiny contacts is for those who have to and those who need punishment to believe they are alive, just kidding on the latter part. But it can be difficult manual labor.


----------



## scorp32

Thank you for the reply.

I have figured it out now, I found an audio shop that can do the jack switch for TRRS balanced.  I am unable to use my clumsy hands in such delicate matters


----------

