# Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator



## project86

Just became aware of this software - looks interesting. HERE is the link. The creator is a member here. I have to find some time to give it a try, so I make no claims about how effective it might be. But it seems like an ambitious concept, Sort of an attempt to do what the Smyth Realizer does, through software only, based on measuring various real world speaker systems including some Magico, Wilson, JansZen, Focal, Quad ESL, Maggies, Revels, etc.
  
 It's free to try - with a 2 minute time limit on each one (that resets after 30 seconds). Definitely gonna give it a shot when I can, and I'd love to hear other opinions as well.


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## blueangel2323

It's a fascinating concept. Darin consulted with some members here, including myself, regarding features and pricing a while ago. I'll download it and A-B it with TB Isone when I get the chance. So far Isone is the only software-based solution that comes anywhere close to convincingly portraying the sound of a speaker system, but there is still some distortion.


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## darinf

Hi everyone,
  
 FYI, I will be following this thread, of course, so if you have any questions, let me know here or PM me.
  
 For those of you trying the trial, here's some quick tips when you use it for the first time:
  


> The first time you hear Out Of Your Head, it may not sound right. It's not the software, it's your brain!
> 
> The problem is that your brain doesn't know what it's hearing. Generally if you are sitting at your laptop or desktop computer, the sound will sound like it's coming from behind a wall or out in the middle of the room, etc. Since your eyes don't see anything that the sound could be coming from, your brain gets confused.
> 
> ...


 
 -Darin


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## Warmuth327

Hi,
  
 So I downloaded the trial and installed, but now when I open MediaMonkey it is cycling through my library of songs and won't allow me to play anything.
  
 Is it doing some profiling of the tracks in the background in order to use the driver, or is this a glitch?
  
 Thanks
 Darren


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## darinf

warmuth327 said:


> Hi,
> 
> So I downloaded the trial and installed, but now when I open MediaMonkey it is cycling through my library of songs and won't allow me to play anything.
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like a glitch. Out Of Your Head is just a windows sound card driver. When you run Out Of Your Head, it will switch your Windows Default Playback Device to the Out Of Your Head driver. So from that point on, all the sound routed to the default Windows device should play through Out Of Your Head and then onto your actual sound output device.
  
 Out Of Your Head does not know where the sound is coming from, so it should not have any effect on any software.
  
 In whatever media player you're using, you should have that app configured to output to Windows Direct Sound and use the Primary Sound Driver. Also, Out Of Your Head wants to see 48khz/24bit or 32bit output from the media player. We currently do not support ASIO, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming, etc.
  
 I am guessing that MediaMonkey is trying to play a file and for some reason can't play it through Out Of Your Head so it skips to the next song and tries that.
  
 I am not familiar with MediaMonkey, but I will try it and see if I can get it to work.
  
 In the meantime, just to get some sound playing through Out Of Your Head to test, can you try Windows Media Player or VLC or iTunes?
  
 -Darin


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## Warmuth327

darinf said:


> Sounds like a glitch. Out Of Your Head is just a windows sound card driver. When you run Out Of Your Head, it will switch your Windows Default Playback Device to the Out Of Your Head driver. So from that point on, all the sound routed to the default Windows device should play through Out Of Your Head and then onto your actual sound output device.
> 
> Out Of Your Head does not know where the sound is coming from, so it should not have any effect on any software.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, that sounds like what it is doing.  MM is outputting WASAPI 44.1/16bit out to the DAC which is configured to 24 bit.
  
 Will flip over to direct sound and try it out.
  
 Darren


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## FullCircle

project86 said:


> Just became aware of this software - looks interesting. HERE is the link. The creator is a member here. I have to find some time to give it a try, so I make no claims about how effective it might be. But it seems like an ambitious concept, Sort of an attempt to do what the Smyth Realizer does, through software only, based on measuring various real world speaker systems including some Magico, Wilson, JansZen, Focal, Quad ESL, Maggies, Revels, etc.
> 
> It's free to try - with a 2 minute time limit on each one (that resets after 30 seconds). Definitely gonna give it a shot when I can, and I'd love to hear other opinions as well.


 
  
  
    I took it for a spin & I really enjoyed the cinema feature....   it gave me the "wow" effect.


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## Chodi

I installed your trial on my x64 system with JRiver and I cannot get it to work. I am usually pretty good with these things but I think the instructions may be incomplete. In JRiver it gives me the option to select your driver as the ouput but it does not actually change anything. I tried selecting your driver as default in Windows and then selected my Hiface 2 as default. Neither really activates your driver. I also tried selecting your driver in Jriver and also my Hiface 2 driver. Same results neither activates your software as the output. Perhaps you could provide more detailed instructions for those using JRiver.


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## darinf

chodi said:


> I installed your trial on my x64 system with JRiver and I cannot get it to work. I am usually pretty good with these things but I think the instructions may be incomplete. In JRiver it gives me the option to select your driver as the ouput but it does not actually change anything. I tried selecting your driver as default in Windows and then selected my Hiface 2 as default. Neither really activates your driver. I also tried selecting your driver in Jriver and also my Hiface 2 driver. Same results neither activates your software as the output. Perhaps you could provide more detailed instructions for those using JRiver.


 
 Basically, you should never have to switch your Windows Default Playback Device to the Out Of Your Head driver. In fact, Out Of Your Head will not launch if you have it selected as the default playback device.
  
 So, just to be safe, before you launch Out Of Your Head, make sure that the Windows Default Playback Device is set to your desired output device. Usually it's your DAC or headphone jack, etc. (Make sure Out Of Your Head is NOT running when you switch default playback devices.)
  
 Then launch Out Of Your Head. In the Out Of Your Head control panel interface, verify that your preferred audio output device has a green check by it in the right panel of the Out Of Your Head interface.
  
 Then in JRiver, here's the settings you should have:

In "Tools/Options/Audio/Output Mode" set to Direct Sound.
Then you should have the "Output mode settings/Device" set to Primary Sound Driver.
 ​
You should also never change the bit rate of the Out Of Your Head driver in the sound control panel.
  
Other notes, make sure you always quit Out Of Your Head before plugging or unplugging USB audio devices. 
And remember, you should never have to select the Out Of Your Head drive as your default playback device in Windows or in your media player app. 
  
I hope this helps. I need to update the manual for sure. Sorry!
  
Let me know if you still can't get it working. There are more things to try.
  
-Darin


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## darinf

warmuth327 said:


> Yep, that sounds like what it is doing.  MM is outputting WASAPI 44.1/16bit out to the DAC which is configured to 24 bit.
> 
> Will flip over to direct sound and try it out.
> 
> Darren


 
 I tried MediaMonkey. As expected, the WASAPI driver does not work. But the Direct Sound driver works great with Out Of Your Head.


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## darinf

fullcircle said:


> I took it for a spin & I really enjoyed the cinema feature....   it gave me the "wow" effect.


 
 I can't wait to watch a movie with my Noble K10's when I get them. Talk about a "killer combo" for portable use! Plane rides will never be the same again.


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## Warmuth327

darinf said:


> I tried MediaMonkey. As expected, the WASAPI driver does not work. But the Direct Sound driver works great with Out Of Your Head.


 
 Yep, got it working, but trying to overcome the 'thinness' of everything.  Doesn't seem to matter which preset I try, it seems to be losing most of the bass and the mids.  Yes, the soundstage and projection is larger, but the 'sound' is not there.  Any thoughts?
  
 Darren


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## FullCircle

darinf said:


> I can't wait to watch a movie with my Noble K10's when I get them. Talk about a "killer combo" for portable use! Plane rides will never be the same again.


 
 Well that was kind of the big surprise as watching a movie clip on my lap top, really had a "cenima" feel....  I gues the "phrase portable cenima" could be used to describe it.


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## brunk

fullcircle said:


> Well that was kind of the big surprise as watching a movie clip on my lap top, really had a "cenima" feel....  I gues the "phrase portable cenima" could be used to describe it.


 
 Something I have done for some time that many don't realize the true power of JRiver, is that you can apply this DSP to tracks and export them to your portable. You can have this sound on the go without a compatible player for the plug-in!


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## darinf

warmuth327 said:


> Yep, got it working, but trying to overcome the 'thinness' of everything.  Doesn't seem to matter which preset I try, it seems to be losing most of the bass and the mids.  Yes, the soundstage and projection is larger, but the 'sound' is not there.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Darren


 
 Hmm... The output level is lower when going through Out Of Your Head. So your volume level setting may have to be higher than you're used to.
  
 Other than that, the amount of bass and mids is dependent on the speakers you are listening to. Speakers like the Quads don't have a lot of bass.
  
 Try the "Magical" speakers. They have a lot of bass.
  
 Also, since you are listening to the sound of speakers in the room which they were measured, I think overall the bass energy may be proportionally less than what you get with direct sound to your headphones. The bass energy that is heard/felt at the listening position in a room maybe less than what you hear directly from headphones.
  
 One other thing I have noticed is that the upper frequency range also has more sound level since you are also hearing the room reflections, etc., especially in the brighter listening rooms. More high end level can then make it sound like less bass for a given volume level.
  
 You can also double check that something else is not wrong by using the "bypass" preset. Scroll to the bottom of the list of presets and select "bypass". You should hear the same sound that you hear without Out Of Your Head running, but the output level will be lower than it is without Out Of Your Head running. 
  
 -Darin


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## Chodi

Thank for your further instructions. I never would have thought to try the Direct Sound output in JRiver as we are always advised to try any other alternative to Direct Sound as it colors the output going through the Windows mixer. I will give it a try.


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## Chodi

warmuth327 said:


> Yep, got it working, but trying to overcome the 'thinness' of everything.  Doesn't seem to matter which preset I try, it seems to be losing most of the bass and the mids.  Yes, the soundstage and projection is larger, but the 'sound' is not there.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Darren


 
 I just got it to work and I find exactly the same as you. Sound is thin and way different tonally than it should be. After a first listen with classical music I would say this is no competition for Isone. Maybe it would work with movies I haven't tried that. After a brief listen I am not impressed.


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## project86

You folks who have tried it - what headphones are you using? I imagine that choice makes a big difference towards the final result.
  
 Also, forgot to mention that an OSX version is in the works, then iOS and Android after that. Assuming we like the sound, those would be really useful for watching movies on tablets.


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## FullCircle

I was using a skunk works (? Driver) Noble IEM.


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## darinf

Hi everyone. Thanks for your comments. I had this long winded response about the sound and the comments, but again I think people can just try it for themselves.
  
 I put together a demo page where you don't have to download or install anything. I just used Audacity to record the two channel output of Out Of Your Head. Then for the videos, I synced the processed audio to the video and posted those links online.
  
 So all you have to do it go to the web page and you can listen or download the clips which have the processed output of Out Of Your Head as if you had the software installed. (For those of you that already have Out Of Your Head installed, please make sure it's not running when you listen to these demos otherwise the sound will be double processed!)
  
 This way everyone, Mac or PC, can try a demo without installing anything.
  
 Personally, I think the movie clips have a decent amount of bass, but you can tell me what you think.
  
 Here's the demo page:
http://outofyourhead.net/demo/
  
 -Darin


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## darinf

project86 said:


> You folks who have tried it - what headphones are you using? I imagine that choice makes a big difference towards the final result.
> 
> Also, forgot to mention that an OSX version is in the works, then iOS and Android after that. Assuming we like the sound, those would be really useful for watching movies on tablets.


 
 Yes, as we all know different headphones sound different...
  
 I can measure and incorporate headphone EQ into my software, but I didn't. The main reason is that for me to EQ headphones, I need to have a pair available to measure. Quite frankly, I just don't have the resources to get a lot of brands/models of headphones to measure. So if I only listed the few models of headphone EQ settings, people might think that my software only works with those headphones.
  
 So, my thinking on EQ was that I would give people the option of using their own preferred EQ methods and apply EQ that way. Sure, I wish I could do it for you. And I can if you come to San Diego for a measurement session. Then I can EQ your headphones using your head. But since that's not practical for most people, I invite you to use whatever EQ you like and apply the EQ in whichever software you want to use. All of it will work with Out Of Your Head. There are so many good EQ's out there, I also didn't want to have to write EQ software of my own. At least if you use your own EQ of choice, you can custom tailor the sound to exactly how you like it.
  
 It's not ideal to have to EQ your sound in order to get Out Of Your Head to sound right with your headphones, but again, keep in mind that* I am not doing any EQ at all*. I am simply "playing back",  as accurately as possible, the sound of the speakers and the room acoustics that were measured. When we measure a room and speakers, we do a lot of A/B comparisons to make sure the Out Of Your Head sound matches the actual room and speaker sound while we are in the room. (In that case, we do EQ our headphone/amp combination to be flat to eliminate, as much as we can, any coloration introduced by the headphones themselves.)
  
 But in the end, that's why the trial is so important. Try it for yourself and see what you think. It's not often here on Head-Fi that everyone can hear how a new product sounds for themselves rather than rely on other people's impression or going to a meet.
  
 -Darin


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## brunk

@darinf - Great Idea on the pre-made clips! If I may offer one suggestion though - your webpage background is an excellent shade of gray for ease of reading, but the text also comes off as gray. Is there any way you make the text darker? Appearances are everything these days...blah-blah you get the idea.


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## blueangel2323

There's a problem with the Pink Floyd demo.


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## darinf

brunk said:


> @darinf - Great Idea on the pre-made clips! If I may offer one suggestion though - your webpage background is an excellent shade of gray for ease of reading, but the text also comes off as gray. Is there any way you make the text darker? Appearances are everything these days...blah-blah you get the idea.


 
 Done! The text is now black. Looks better to me.


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## darinf

blueangel2323 said:


> There's a problem with the Pink Floyd demo.


 
 I just tried it and it played back for me. Anyone else?


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## blueangel2323

darinf said:


> I just tried it and it played back for me. Anyone else?


 
 The embedded file plays, but the download doesn't work. The file is only 359 bytes.


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## darinf

blueangel2323 said:


> The embedded file plays, but the download doesn't work. The file is only 359 bytes.


 
 Fixed. Sorry about that. I had a space in the file name.


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## darinf

chodi said:


> Thank for your further instructions. I never would have thought to try the Direct Sound output in JRiver as we are always advised to try any other alternative to Direct Sound as it colors the output going through the Windows mixer. I will give it a try.


 
 In JRiver, you can use WASAPI with Out Of Your Head, but you have to change a few settings to make it work. I just didn't want people to have to make all those changes in order to use WASAPI. DirectSound is much easier to configure.
  
 Here's the instructions for using WASAPI in JRiver:
  


Spoiler: Warning: Instructions ahead!



Obviously, first in Options/Audio, change the Output Mode to WASAPI

 Then in Output Mode Settings change it to this: 

 Then since Out Of Your Head only processes at 48K, you have to enable and change the "Options/Audio/DSP & Output Format" settings to this:
  

 This way JRiver will resample everything to 48K and always send 7.1 channels.
  
 Another note, I have found that using WASAPI seems to make the audio latency even longer. Seems like about -900ms for video sync on my computer
  
 Let me know if you can hear a difference between WASAPI and DirectSound.


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## deadie

For me, to appreciate the value-add of Darin's presets, I have to listen to / use the presets on an absolute basis (straight to music with preset applied) vs. a comparative basis (headphone sound then to Out of Your Head preset).
  
 Initially evaluating his software, I went from listening to unprocessed "headphone sound" music, then switched to Darin's various presets and the music (with the effect) sounded thin, bass shy, hollow.
  
 After taking a break, I downloaded one of his music mp3 demos, Shantel Nicole Grace's "Your Love Goes On", and found the processed track / version quite appealing.
  
 I emailed Darin and learned that the track was processed with "Acoustic Zen".  I bought the track and then applied the Zen preset to compare it to the downloaded demo with the preset baked in.  It sounded the same.
  
 I found my brain needs a short reset / period of quiet after listening to "normal" headphone sound.  When I listened to the OOYH presets / processed music with a clean slate, I appreciated the effects in and of themselves.
  
 They're quite a nice change of pace and I look forward to an iOS port, to use on the go with my Touch 5G, Centrance M8 and UERM.   
  
 ... forgot to mention, along with the UERM I use LCD-2 & DT-990 - all three balanced.  The latter two are amped with either a Headroom Balanced Desktop or the Emotiva Mini-X.


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## darinf

deadie said:


> For me, to appreciate the value-add of Darin's presets, I have to listen to / use the presets on an absolute basis (straight to music with preset applied) vs. a comparative basis (headphone sound then to Out of Your Head preset).
> 
> Initially evaluating his software, I went from listening to unprocessed "headphone sound" music, then switched to Darin's various presets and the music (with the effect) sounded thin, bass shy, hollow.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the updated impressions and tip for others who downloaded the trial.
  
 I guess I am SO used to hearing speakers in headphones, that I forget that hearing this effect for the first time can be difficult for the brain to interpret especially if you don't have real speakers in front of you. I have given demos to people who could not figure out what they were hearing. But once I explained what they should be hearing and also only played one channel at a time, then the "picture" came into focus for them.
  
 In @deadie's case, he went from thinking the sound was terrible to finding that the sound was good. BUT the actual sound out of the software never changed!
  
 I guess the best way to get an idea of what my software does it to listen/view the pre-rendered online demo page. That seems to work better for everyone and it's platform independent. They will playback on mobile devices too. You can also get a good idea of the movie watching experience using Out Of Your Head on that page.
  
 -Darin


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## esimms86

I've been enjoying Out of Your Head for the past week or so. It hasn't been perfect but I can't imagine going back to standard 2 channel headphone listening with a limited soundstage.
  
 I should state upfront that I have never had the pleasure of listening to software like Isone or hardware like the Smyth Realiser. I've long desired to purchase the Smyth Realiser but it's clear to me now that it is not in my future. One of the questions that future reviewers of OOYH will have to address is how it compares to listening experiences with software like Isone and hardware like the Smyth Realiser. I'm as curious as anyone else to hear from users of those products but, at this point, my enjoyment of OOYH is so substantial that it is almost beside the point for me. Others, of course, will disagree but this is just my person resolution and, as they say, YMMV.
  
 So, to begin, what is my current setup? I have a Dell core i5 Windows laptop running jriver version 19. I am using the Audioquest Dragonfly DAC plugged into the laptop and sending the audio out to a pair of 10 year old Sennheiser HD 600's. I have a pair of used Sennheiser HD 800's coming soon but I have yet to listen through anything other than the HD 600's. The Dragonfly maxes out at 24/96 so it works well with OOYH which, as you know, is limited to 24/48. I also have signed on to receive a Geek and a Geek Pulse but they won't be arriving until january and april, respectfully(assuming that Light Harmonic's targeted release dates are on schedule). Warren P. Chi and Mike Mercer have talked up the Geek  and Warren has gone so far as to say that it is essentially head and shoulders above the Dragonfly. Well, we've have to wait and see but the future does seem bright.
  
 Thus far, I have listened to all of the OOYH presets and I have purchased the Home Theater 7.1 and Sasha 2.0 presets with plans to ultimately purchase the Egyptian Theater preset for computer-based and LCD HDTV based(via HDMI for video) movie watching and surround listening.
  
 I have enjoyed listening to the other presets and I believe that the pricing of 25 USD per preset is reasonable. Nonetheless, based on my personal preferences, my equipment and, perhaps, my anatomic features and older adult hearing (with my hearing frequencies topping out at 14kHz), the HT and Sasha presets are the ones that work best for me. Opting not to purchase a given preset is largely an indication that the given room selected for preset is not to my taste. This is not dissimilar to the judgments we all make when we listen to a given sound system at the home of a friend or in a dealer's showroom. Having said that, my preset preferences are a reflection(no pun intended - as a friend says,  that would be "punishment") of where I'm at at this point in time, and I reserve the right to develop changes in preference and perception as time and experience increases. 
  
 19 presets can be a bit overwhelming at first  blush but I also see no reason why Darin couldn't add even more presets as he finds more speaker setups in rooms to sample in the future.
  
 Regarding purchasing new presets for each computer used, I do understand Darin's reasons for this, nonetheless, it would be great to be able to remove OOYH from a computer that you no longer use and transfer it to a new computer that you do use. This would effectively mean having only so many active preset licenses at a given time, in some ways similar(and ethically the same) vis a vis how it is now. When you retire your old PC(or, in the future, mac when OOYH is available for mac based systems) you would be able to transfer your preset license to your new computer. When you buy a license for Windows 8 for a single user you can only run it on one PC at a time.You can remove it from your old PC and put it on your new or other PC(or mac with bootcamp). In my mind, the same policy should exist for OOYH. Having said that, I fully understand that it is Darin's software enterprise and potential buyers can either play by his rules(well, as with all other software you do have to click "Agree" before using it) or otherwise choose not to purchase his software and spend your money elsewhere.
  
 I do find that the sound  volume needs to be increased or decreased when going from one preset to another (HT is one of the louder presets, Sasha one of the quieter ones). I also find the Bypass setting to sound a bit more bland when compared to listening to conventional headphone 2 channel listening without a crossfeed option though this may be somewhat of a subjective experience in some measure based on the lower sound volume of the Bypass preset.
  
 What about OOYH works best for me? It's like selling real estate, i.e., "location, location, location." The soundstage is absolutely wonderful. Does it sound like I'm listening to a 2.0 or 5.1 sound system in a real listening room? For me, the answer is not really but close enough for me to thoroughly enjoy the experience. Some recordings do sound best in 7.1(tome) while others sound best(to me) in 2.0. Joni Mitchell's For the Roses album, for instance, sounds good in both but the vocals are too isolated in the middle channel with the 7.1. James Taylor's Flag and Hourglass albums sound great either way, but his voice sounds less nasal and more natural in 2.0 configuration. I find the timbre of musical instruments to sound more natural and engaging in 2.0 but there are still recordings where the wow factor of 7.1 overrides my preference for a more natural sound.
  
 What do I find fault with re: OOYH? I wish that I could take a trip to visit Darin Fong San Diego to have the software calibrated for my own headphones. That is unlikely to happen, at least for now(I live in Massachusetts but I do have in laws in the Los Angeles area). I am, nonetheless, happy to make do with what I have for now.
  
 Second, the 24/48 limitation is an issue given that I have an extensive library of music which includes a number of 24/96, 24/192 and DSD files. jriver is great is that it converts all of the above to PCM at 24/48 on the fly, as it were. I also have to admit that high resolution FLAC and DSD, while greatly impressive when listening to loudspeakers in an actual(versus virtual) room, is much less of an issue of me when listening through headphones with OOYH engaged. In truth, redbook CD rips sounds wonderful and engaging when listened to via OOYH.
  
 The 3rd disadvantage for me is one of software compatibility. While I have experienced ZERO dropout problems through properly setup jriver(thank you Darin for your excellent responsiveness re: customer service), I have found that the DAC in the Woo Fireflies has, thus far, proved a nonstarter with OOYH as the Fireflies' DAC specifies an ASIO driver(see the Fireflies manual). OOYH specifically does NOT work ASIO per Darin Fong and per my experience.
  
 Like all headphone listening, OOYH will not give your visceral experience of palpable, thunderous bass that a good room based system will. I know that the 
 Smyth Realiser sells a physical board to give back some of that experience and it remains to be seen as to whether Darin might ever contemplate and perhaps release such hardware in the future.
  
 I understand that OOYH is, in this very thread, reported to work with WAPASI, so I am also looking forward to pair the Fireflies with my excellent and well reviewed Auralic Vega DAC which is also configured to work with WAPASI. This is something that I will set up on thursday(2 days from now) when I have more time.
  
 Regarding customer service, I have traded a few emails with Darin and he has been wonderfully responsive. At the same time, I would recommend that he post a pdf file on the OOYH website detailing specific settings with specific music software programs to make set up of the program more streamlined for the buyer(also obviating the need to answer the same questions over and over again). The Auralic website has a similar pdf which I've found incredibly helpful in setting up the Auralic Vega with various software programs without having to bother the folks in Auralic customer service. As has been done with Auralic, Darin can post a pdf with screenshots specifying set ups with the more commonly used audio software programs.
  
 The online demo page, BTW, is awesome. When watching and listening to the videos I was totally engaged and I was disappointed for the videos to end.
  
 I've rambled on enough in this post but I just wanted to share my early thoughts and impressions of OOYH with other Head-Fiers. I look forward to reading others' experience Darin's new software.
  
 Esau


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## darinf

Thank you Esau for the thoughtful review. I really appreciate you taking the time to write it. And of course, thank you for purchasing Out Of Your Head!
  
 I just wanted to address a few things mentioned in your review...
  
*With regard to licensing*, this aspect has been a difficult aspect of the software. The main problem I had was that basically everyone I consulted with in the software business told me that there was NO way to really copy protect the software. If someone wanted to "crack" it, they would. The licensing scheme I have in place is much more complicated than I wanted, but it is also very secure. I could go one forever about all the schemes I wanted for licensing, but the net result is what I have now given the resources I had to implement it. The bottom line though, is that I believe that most people generally are not trying to steal software. So, all I ask is that people who purchased licenses e-mail me if they want something changed, transferred, deactivated, activated, etc. I am a very reasonable person and will do everything I can to accommodate everyone. I believe that this "personal" service will allow me to accommodate people and at the same time deter people who are trying to "steal" the software. Believe me, I wish I could make the licensing more flexible, but I think a minority can ruin it for everyone else like many things in life.
  
*Regarding 24/48 processing:*
 Actually, Out Of Your Head processes everything at 32bit/48Khz. I felt that that was a good balance between good sound quality and processing overhead. I wanted people with older computers to still be able to process 8 channels of audio AND play back a 1080p H.264 movie. SO for the initial release, that is where we are. Our current prototype versions can process at up to 192Khz at 8 channels, but you need to have a fast computer to be able to do it while playing a movie. Yes, I know. Just do 2 channels at 192K instead. Don't worry, it's coming, but most likely there will be an additional charge for an add-on, or a higher end version of Out Of Your Head for those audiophiles who want the additional feature. I think most of the average public (non-audiophiles) will not care or want the higher data rates.
  
*ASIO support?* Yes, we would love to be able to support ASIO devices, but again, it's a matter of resources and time. Does the Woo WA& only work in ASIO mode? From the manual, it says:


> TIPS: It is strongly recommended to use a media player that supports ASIO output
> mode for the highest playback quality.


 
 Does that mean it will only work in ASIO? Will it work in non-ASIO mode with JRiver? In theory if the WA7 will work in WDM (DirectSound) mode in Windows, then it should work with Out Of Your Head.
  
 But, I just wanted to clarify...Out Of Your Head  currently can only output to devices via Windows WDM. It will not output via WASAPI or ASIO. But I have found that all the USB DAC's I have tried all work with standard Windows WDM output. The Auralic VEGA DAC manual says:_ "The device should now be visible in Windows and any applications as both ASIO and WDM audio device."_ So it should work without problem with Out Of Your Head as a WDM device. I realize that there are a lot of opinions out there about never using WDM for the best sound quality. We're working on supporting ASIO or WASAPI. To be honest though, we are working on getting the other platforms implemented before we go back and update the Windows version of Out Of Your Head.
  


> I know that the Smyth Realiser sells a physical board to give back some of that experience


 
 The Smyth Realiser does not sell a physical board for the low frequencies. The device does have a subwoofer output that can be used to drive a subwoofer or a tactile transducer. We could do something similar, but since we are software only, we would have to require the user's computer to have a multi-channel output so we could output L and R channels and a subwoofer output. That would rule out most USB DAC's. The Realiser is a fantastic piece of hardware and offers different functionality that Out Of Your Head, but it is nearly identical in terms of sound quality. Of course then there's the slight difference in price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I even recommend to people to buy a Realiser if they want all the additional functionality it offers. I think both products have a place in the market.
  
*Regarding documentation:*
 Yes, I need to do a lot more documentation. I am in the process of updating the manual with ALL the questions and answers I have been getting from people who have downloaded the trial or purchased licenses.
  
 Thank you again Esau for all the great feedback. I love all the feedback, good or bad. It helps me immensely.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Shep

Good job, Darin.  I wish you every success with this.  Had fun with the demo page and I must say OOYH is really pretty close to my Realiser on some of the systems.  Very worthwhile for your pricing, except, I'm Mac, so as soon as you have that sorted, I'm in.  The idiotic input choices of the Realiser and its tortuous user interface are what sells OOYH to me.  Software allows more music player, DAC, sample rate and format choices as they inevitably evolve.  The Realiser is already dated.  I think your project is inspired.
  
 Have you thought about an additional service whereby you personalise a PRIR for OOYH remotely?  I have an idea that I'll PM you about.


----------



## Brooko

Definitely subbed. Well done Darin - played around with the demo, and seriously considering buying.
  
 Is there any way one could easily apply a purchased configuration to actual digital music files - so that you could have same effect on a portable player?


----------



## darinf

shep said:


> Good job, Darin.  I wish you every success with this.  Had fun with the demo page and I must say OOYH is really pretty close to my Realiser on some of the systems.  Very worthwhile for your pricing, except, I'm Mac, so as soon as you have that sorted, I'm in.  The idiotic input choices of the Realiser and its tortuous user interface are what sells OOYH to me.  Software allows more music player, DAC, sample rate and format choices as they inevitably evolve.  The Realiser is already dated.  I think your project is inspired.
> 
> Have you thought about an additional service whereby you personalise a PRIR for OOYH remotely?  I have an idea that I'll PM you about.


 
 Hi Shep,
  
 Thanks for posting.
  
 For Realiser owners, I do offer a service to convert your PRIR and HPEQ into a custom preset for Out Of Your Head. This way you can use your own personalized measurements in the Out Of Your Head software. It's great for Realiser owners who want to listen to their Realiser in multiple locations, while traveling, etc. without having to take their Realiser with them or buy a second one, etc. Of course this also makes your options for source material much more flexible, especially for two channel music.
  
 I have yet to set up my online store with the PRIR conversion service, but the cost is $150 per custom preset. You also get an Out Of Your Head license for 50% off. So for your first conversion, the cost is $199 total and each additional conversion is $150.


----------



## darinf

brooko said:


> Definitely subbed. Well done Darin - played around with the demo, and seriously considering buying.
> 
> Is there any way one could easily apply a purchased configuration to actual digital music files - so that you could have same effect on a portable player?


 
 Yes, you can record the processed output of Out Of Your Head. This is a good temporary solution until Out Of Your Head is released for portable devices. Or, of course, if you want to use a dedicated DAP.
  
 First, the best free Windows sound recorder software is Audacity. You can use any audio recording app you want though.
  
 Then, in some cases, you have to enable the "Stereo Mix" device as the default recording device in the Windows Sound control panel.
  
 OK, I will just outline all the steps here:
  

Launch Out Of Your Head and make sure you have your built-in sound card as your output device. (Don't select a USB DAC or any other add-on output device.)
Open you media player app and make sure you can hear the Out Of Your Head audio coming from your built-in audio playback device
Open the "Control Panel\Sound" control panel
Select the "Recording" tab.
If you don't see a device in that list called "Stereo Mix", then go to the next step.
Right click on any device in the list and make sure "Show Disabled Devices" and "Show Disconnected Devices" are checked
Right-click on "Stereo Mix" and select "Enable"
Right-click on "Stereo Mix" and select "Set as Default Device"
open Audacity
On the top tool bar, towards the right of the window, select "Primary Sound Capture" as your Audacity recording input. like this: 
 You will have to adjust the recording levels, or you may have to adjust the input recording level by sliding the control next to the microphone icon. Set it as high as you can, but low enough to avoid any clipping. Of course, the record level will also depend on the source you are recording.
 To record, just hit the Record button in Audacity and Audacity will record any audio being output on your computer. So if you are playing music through Out Of Your Head, your recording will be the processed output of Out Of Your Head.
  
 This is not ideal since you will still have to trim the recordings, save/rename them. For a lot of music, this is a pretty tedious process, but it does work.
  
 I hope this helps,
  
 -Darin


----------



## Brooko

Thanks Darin
  
 That's a great help - and I will try.  I just need to free up some cash now in order to buy the software .....


----------



## crisnee

Hi,
 I haven't been able to get the OOYH to work with JRiver MC19. I followed the instructions and tried all kinds of things but could not get it to work with Wasapi. I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link and V-Dac. MC would not let me select 8 channels, and when it played with 2 channels it bypassed OOYH.
  
 I then tried the demos from the demo page. I tried them with several good headphones (Audio Technica 900 for one) and all had a rather processed sound to me when OOYH processing was going on, i.e. a bit phasey (if that's a word) and hollow.
  
 And speaking of the demo page, what is the second song, and who sings it? It's the 2 channel on and off demo.
  
 Chris


----------



## darinf

crisnee said:


> Hi,
> I haven't been able to get the OOYH to work with JRiver MC19. I followed the instructions and tried all kinds of things but could not get it to work with Wasapi. I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link and V-Dac. MC would not let me select 8 channels, and when it played with 2 channels it bypassed OOYH.
> 
> I then tried the demos from the demo page. I tried them with several good headphones (Audio Technica 900 for one) and all had a rather processed sound to me when OOYH processing was going on, i.e. a bit phasey (if that's a word) and hollow.
> ...


 
 Hi Chris,
  
 Did you try using DirectSound in JMC 19? That's the recommended configuration since it's a lot easier to get working. If you want to use WASAPI, did you try following the instructions I wrote in an earlier post? WASAPI is much less forgiving. In JMC, the source material must be converted to 48K sampling to work with Out Of Your Head. Out Of Your Head currently cannot accept varying sample rate sources via WASAPI.
  
 Did you have your Musical Fidelity selected as the output device in JMC? If so, then the sound would bypass Out Of Your Head. The sound would go directly to your DAC.
  
 Please try DirectSound in JMC. You can follow the instructions in my earlier post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator#post_9959729
  
 As far as the pre-rendered demos go, the sound you are hearing is definitely processed. You should be hearing the sound of the speakers and the room which is significantly different that what you hear in headphones. The room reflections and interactions are what establishes the location of the speakers in the room and the acoustics of the room itself. That's the exact sound that was being produced in that room. The sound should not sound like what you are hearing in headphones. If the speakers have less bass or different frequency response, then that's what you will hear.
  
 However, if you prefer a much less reflective room and hear less room interactions, then I recommend you try some of the recording studio presets or home theater presets. Generally the recording studios are much more damped and have much more sound proofing to reduce room interactions. 
  
 On the other extreme, if you listen to the Egyptian Theater preset, that is a huge movie theater, so you will hear lots of "processing" which is essentially very long reverberations and can sound "hollow". I am guessing you will not find that to your liking either.
  
 That's why I have a variety of presets. Everyone has their preferences in terms of the sound of the room and speakers. The nice thing is that you have a choice and can change the sound with the click of the mouse. Will everyone be able to find something they like? With 19 presets, I don't think that's enough to please everyone. That's like saying that 19 different headphones are enough to accommodate everyone's tastes. But that's why I let you try all of them to see if there is something you like. Plus I am always adding to my library of rooms.
  
 Even if you don't find anything you like for listening to music with Out Of Your Head, I really hope you try watching a movie. In that case, I think it's an experience that you can't find anywhere else with headphones.
  
 Lastly, here the song on that demo:
 Shantel Nicole Grace: Your Love Goes On​  
 -Darin


----------



## hekeli

darinf said:


> Plus I am always adding to my library of rooms.


 

 So are all the PRIRs your personal ones? I doubt adding more and more rooms is better than using many different ears for less rooms. After all, if the ears are not compatible, no room is going to sound "right".
  
 Good luck for the endeavour, I guess some people could find it useful. But unlike Shep I don't find anything "dated" in my Realiser, _personal_ PRIRs and the features are in a class of their own..


----------



## darinf

hekeli said:


> So are all the PRIRs your personal ones? I doubt adding more and more rooms is better than using many different ears for less rooms. After all, if the ears are not compatible, no room is going to sound "right".
> 
> Good luck for the endeavour, I guess some people could find it useful. But unlike Shep I don't find anything "dated" in my Realiser, _personal_ PRIRs and the features are in a class of their own..


 
 Yes, you are right. I have thought about finding people with different ear shapes and sizes and doing a bunch of measurements in the same room. I hope to do that someday. 
  
 Yes, certainly personal PRIR's are the best. That's why I offer personalized measurements for those who want me do personal measurements for them. Otherwise for Realiser owners, I can offer them the ability to use their own PRIR's on multiple devices if they want that flexibility. I love my Realiser, but I also like being able to "listen" to it on a plane, when I'm traveling, etc. and use my favorite USB DAC, etc. You get more flexibility for relatively little cost.


----------



## crisnee

Thanks for your response Darin. 
  
 Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
  
 Anyway, I went back to Direct and did get it to work, but it didn't sound very good at all. I think something must not be right. Also there is no choice for _primary sound driver_, just a choice for channels.
  
 The sound was constricted and the volume was much lower when using the settings than when switching to bypass mode, and I mean _much lower_ (I have everything set to 0.0 db [top volume level] in the panel).
  
 -Chris


----------



## darinf

crisnee said:


> Thanks for your response Darin.
> 
> Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Chris,
  
 Yes, I am using JMC 18, not 19. I need to upgrade to see what's changed. So, for now, all the instructions I have are for 18.
  
 One thing to try just to see if it's working is to use VLC media player instead. This way we can see if the sound is the same from both JMC and VLC. If so, then we know it's not something specific to the media player software.
  
 The output level can be affected by several different controls. Sound like you have the Out Of Your Head volume set all the way up. Then you can also check your Windows mixer levels. Those volume controls can control the output level of your DAC. Then I assume you also have the volume all the way up in JMC 19.
  
 But, the output level of the processed sound from Out Of Your Head will always be lower than when it's bypassed. The level has to be lower to avoid clipping in our processing. 
  
 The next thing to do is to compare the online demos: http://outofyourhead.net/demo/ to the sound you are getting from the trial software. They should sound exactly the same, given the same preset. I think most of the prerendered demos are using either the Acoustic Zen preset or the Magical preset. If they sound a lot different, then something is wrong. (I know it's hard to compare without the same source material.)
  
 Unfortunately, I have been finding that many people's first reaction to hearing the processed output is that it sounds weird and nothing like the sound in bypass mode. It's true since we are doing a lot of processing to the sound and we are adding "real" reverb, etc. which is inherent in the sound of the room. I concede that it sounds completely different than traditional headphone listening. But, if you were sitting in that same room with those speakers, you would know that the Out Of Your Head sound is the same as the sound in that room with those speakers. I think it takes a little getting used to for your brain to properly interpret what you're hearing.
  
 It reminds me of those "autostereograms" where you have to stare at what seems like a random pattern. the image just looks weird and you can't see anything. Then eventually with some practice, you can actually see a real 3D shape that pops out of the screen, etc. But until your eyes and brain "get it", it looks like nothing:
  

  
 Or these:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/487531/headphone-stereogram
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

crisnee said:


> Thanks for your response Darin.
> 
> Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Chris,
  
 I installed JRiver Media Center 19. I was able to get WASAPI to work.
  
 Here's the instructions:


Spoiler: Instructions below:



 
 In "Tools/Options/Audio/Audio Device", select "Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device (WASAPI)"
 In "Tools/Options/Audio/Settings/DSP & output format", set the settings to look like this:

 So you need to make sure all sampling rates are set to 48K.
 Under "Channels", you may have to change that to 7.1 if you are using a 7.1 source file. The "5.1 channels (inside 7.1 channel container)" setting should work for all 2 or 5.1 channel material.
  
 Basically, Out Of Your Head always wants to see 48K and 7.1 channels of audio. Fortunately JRiver does a good job of providing that.


  
 That's it. It should work after that. 
  
 -Darin
  
 -Darin


----------



## crisnee

Yes listening and getting used to the sound seems like a good idea. However, the problem is the 2 minute per setting allotted time. I can hardly get setup to listen (get the volume level right and myself situated) and the time's up. I think I'd need at least ten minutes to sit back and relax and let myself get into the sound.
  
 Anyway, thanks for your quick responses.
  
 Chris


----------



## crisnee

Hi again Darin,
  
 Just saw your new MC19 Wasapi instructions. You're fast. I will try them later and see what happens.
  
 Thanks,
  
 -Chris


----------



## darinf

crisnee said:


> Yes listening and getting used to the sound seems like a good idea. However, the problem is the 2 minute per setting allotted time. I can hardly get setup to listen (get the volume level right and myself situated) and the time's up. I think I'd need at least ten minutes to sit back and relax and let myself get into the sound.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your quick responses.
> 
> Chris


 
 The two minute time resets every time you switch presets. You don't have to wait for the timer to expire.
  
 So you could start playing a song, get your levels set, etc. Then switch presets back and forth quickly, and restart your song. That will give you two minutes of listening. Then before the two minutes are up, just quickly switch presets back and forth and you will get another two minutes, etc.
  
 Sorry it has to be this way, but as much as I want to believe that I could just have people pay on the honor system, that's not the reality.


----------



## crisnee

darinf said:


> The two minute time resets every time you switch presets. You don't have to wait for the timer to expire.
> 
> So you could start playing a song, get your levels set, etc. Then switch presets back and forth quickly, and restart your song. That will give you two minutes of listening. Then before the two minutes are up, just quickly switch presets back and forth and you will get another two minutes, etc.
> 
> Sorry it has to be this way, but as much as I want to believe that I could just have people pay on the honor system, that's not the reality.


 
 I understand how it works, it just doesn't make for relaxed listening which I think is key to learning to hear OOYH correctly, as you put it.
  
 By the way, I don't think people would be satisfied to steal a product that they had to switch presets every 10 minutes; or maybe a very few would, but they wouldn't have been buyers anyway, so that wouldn't be a loss to you.
  
 I think it might be more important for your overall business to get off to a quick start than to worry about a few people stealing your software. Once you get a bad reputation because your software is too hard to work with or to get accustomed to, the news will get out via the audio forums and folks will become skeptical and will likely not give you much of a shot. And if you live around the forums you know how that goes.
  
 I think I'm probably whistling in the wind here, but I would seriously suggest you either lengthen the listening time per preset or make a couple of them 30 minutes long and then have them reset to a short time, or have your trial download be unlimited but only good for a month or so. Anything to make the trial period feel like you're using the real program, especially considering it has that "getting used to the sound" factor.
  
 I'm skeptical that I'll get used to the sound and I probably won't try very long with these 2 minute presets to overcome that, and I've been forever wishing someone would come up with a program like this that I could afford. If I feel that way there are probably others out there that feel like I do. 
  
 Why am I skeptical? 1.Well I've never heard anyone say that they had to get used to the Smyth Realizer, they were always instantly amazed. 2. Maybe you guys who developed it are just hearing what you want to hear--audio can be strange that way. 3. All other headphone programs I've tried (other than the crossfeed) have had the same kind of phaser type artifacts yours appears to have.
  
 Please don't feel that I'm being disrespectful; I'm just telling you what I honestly think because I actually care about the OOYH and want it to be great--for selfish purposes only, and because If I think these things others are probably thinking similar thoughts.
  
 -Chris


----------



## darinf

crisnee said:


> I understand how it works, it just doesn't make for relaxed listening which I think is key to learning to hear OOYH correctly, as you put it.
> 
> By the way, I don't think people would be satisfied to steal a product that they had to switch presets every 10 minutes; or maybe a very few would, but they wouldn't have been buyers anyway, so that wouldn't be a loss to you.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Chris,
  
 Thanks for the great feedback. I really appreciate it.
  
 There are a lot of technical reasons why I could not offer a time-limited (i.e. 30 day) trial. It has more to do with the licensing scheme and not requiring an internet connection for the licensing validation, etc and the strength of the copy protection. I will consider lengthening the timer.
  
 As far as the Realiser goes, I think the biggest issue is that I have never heard of anyone demoing the Realiser or buying one without doing a measurement in a room with speakers. In that case, when you are in the same room as the measurements are done, then your brain gets the full effect. If you are hearing the real room and comparing with the Realiser, it's simple for your brain to figure out. I am confident if I did the same thing with my software, your brain would have no problem "hearing" the room since you can compare with the real thing.
  
 With the trial of Out Of Your Head, the users don't have a frame of reference to start with. It's a little abstract to know what you are hearing.
  
 Again thanks for the great feedback. It is all very helpful to me in the long run. 
  
 -Darin


----------



## hekeli

> Originally Posted by *crisnee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> All other headphone programs I've tried (other than the crossfeed) have had the same kind of phaser type artifacts yours appears to have.


 
  
 Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.


----------



## Chodi

hekeli said:


> Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.


 
 Actually TB Isone is  fully adjustable for the HRTF of your individual ears.


----------



## darinf

chodi said:


> Actually TB Isone is  fully adjustable for the HRTF of your individual ears.


 
 In TB Isone, you can adjust the "head size" and "ear size". I don't really consider that "fully adjustable" since a true accurate HRTF takes into account the actual shape of the ear and the pinnae, etc. It's more than just the size of your head and the size of your ears.
  
 The thing about products that calculate and synthesis things like reflections and distances and head size, etc. is that they are computer generated. They are not measured. Sure it gives you a lot of adjustment capability, but it isn't based on anything real. It's computer generated.
  
 It's like the analogy of computer generated images vs. actual photos/video. You have endless possibilities for CG since you don't have to have anything "real". You can generate an image of anything you can imagine and adjust it however you want. That's great to have that kind of control. But with a photo or video, you have to actually have that scene or objects in reality. And, just like computer graphics vs. real photos or video, you can tell the difference. They can be very close, but ultimately to me, I can spot CG.
  
 The same holds true for me when I listen to synthesized or computer generated effects like TB Isone or Dolby Headphone, etc. The localization might be there to some extent, but it still sounds artificial to me. Whereas to me, Out Of Your Head, sounds like a real room and real speakers. I know others may disagree, but that's what I hear. 
  
 TB Isone and other effects are not going to be able to recreate the sound of specific speakers and specific rooms. It can generate the sound of a certain sized rooms and adjust other parameters, but it's not based on reality. If you were in a room with speakers, you could "tune" TB Isone to try to get close to the sound of the actual room and speakers, but with Out Of Your Head I can "record" that actual speakers and room.
  
 Just like there are lots of great CG animated films and live action films, they both have their merits and limitations. But no ones is saying your have to like one over the other or that one is better than the other. It's a matter of taste. They're just two different methods, just like electronic music vs. acoustic music.


----------



## pompon

The sound is like a pirate movie recorded in a cinema.  The voices seem far and echo.

In fact for the ambiance, I like the effect.

I think it's give what you telling ... out of your head effect.


----------



## FullCircle

pompon said:


> The sound is like a pirate movie recorded in a cinema.  The voices seem far and echo.
> 
> In fact for the ambiance, I like the effect.
> 
> I think it's give what you telling ... out of your head effect.





I live in Thailand where such pirated movies are commonly found, and none of the pirated movies created by a camera set up in the theatre sound as good as Darin's set up

Just my opinion,

Wizard


----------



## crisnee

hekeli said:


> Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.


 
 Well here's something new (to me at least) and interesting.
  
 Today I got out a NOS dac that I've been intending to sell (Scott Nixon Tube Dac 2.2), just to try something different, and boy did I get something different.
  
 In the other setup I'd been trying out I'd become quite discouraged, I could not even get the levels of the speaker setups near the level of the bypass, never mind get good sound from OOYH. The bypass sound was much lower than the preset's level.
  
 With this new setup, the bypass sound was actually louder. That I could deal with, because I could turn it down to match the preset's levels. Also, more significantly, the speaker choices sounded much better, at times. The weird thing is the "at times." Everything seemed to affect the sound. Like what you might ask. Well the dac, but also the headphones and the recording.
  
 I need to experiment with this much more before I form any definite conclusions but here are some for instances, for starters.
  
 I was listening to one track and it came across ear scorchingly bright (Audio Technica 900s), switched to Fostex T50Rp--slightly modded, and the sound was almost dull.
  
 Now granted the AT's are a bit on the bright side, but nothing like this, and the Fostex are not dull. Besides only that one track came across like that. Other tracks sounded fine on the AT's. 
  
 I also have the Sennheiser Px100s. Light over the ear phones, inexpensive but very good for their price. Some tracks sounded horrible on them, others fine.
  
 Nothing ever sounds horrible on any of my headphones, not everything sounds great, but when it sounds horrible it sounds horrible on all, because the recording sucks.
  
 So what I'm really saying (and maybe this has to do with ear shape vs. headphone cup shape) but the variation of quality of sound that has come through my phones when coming from the OOYH driver is immense, from very good, where indeed the sound opens up and the phasing effects and hi freq effects are very light/possibly non existent to godawful. And this variation can come from the same preset depending on the recording and/or headphones. It's really bewildering.
  
 I will have to try to study this a lot more--if I can muster the patience, to see if I can discern a pattern. I shall report back.
  
 By the way, in earlier posts several people complained about the lack of bass. There was no lack of bass in anything I was listening to. Even the AT's which are known to appear to be a bit bass shy, were not.
  
 -Chris


----------



## kalston

This is very interesting to me. I'm a long time Isone user (no other software solution I've tried comes close IMO) but this looks a bit different and has the potential to be better. I have no complaints with Isone though (never had distortion or recordings that sounded "bad" with it) but I'll be sure to check this out. And who knows, as expensive as it may be (for me anyway) birthday and Christmas are coming soon 
  
 Edit : ok my first feedback.
  
 It's very interesting but I don't find it "better" than Isone (and the free Isone Surround) so far. It's good, no doubt (and I have no distortion except some presets that seem to be broken for me) and I like the fact that it works as a virtual soundcard because that means you can use it with absolutely everything including games and films. However for the latter two there is a noticeable delay which makes it unusable for me (well I can adjust the audio/video sync through software so that's ok but no such possibility with games). 
  
 This is quite interesting since I had actually done the same before by using VAC + VSThost (i.e. a virtual soundcard with a DSP effect applied to all sounds, in my case it was Isone) but the result was pretty similar: too much delay. If I reduced the buffers I could make the delay unnoticeable but then there were stutters which is of course much worse. My PC is pretty solid (win 7 64, i5 2500k@4.2ghz, 8gb of RAM, SSD for the OS, absolutely nothing running in the background and lots of system services etc removed).
  
 And regarding the pricing... well I don't mind the base price but having to buy every single preset is really over the top in my opinion. Also the trial limitation of 2 minutes makes it really hard to appreciate the whole thing, as has been said before.


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## ShadowVlican

i haven't tried the demo, but is the delay that noticeable?


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## darinf

Typically the delay in most systems is about 400ms, so yes it is noticeable for movies. You have to adjust audio sync to watch movies. 

For gaming, it's not really usable. We are working on a gaming version that may sacrifice a little quality for speed.


----------



## paradoxper

project86 said:


> You folks who have tried it - what headphones are you using? I imagine that choice makes a big difference towards the final result.
> 
> Also, forgot to mention that an *OSX version* is in the works, then iOS and Android after that. Assuming we like the sound, those would be really useful for watching movies on tablets.


 
 Hurry up, Darin! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 Looking forward to trying this out on PC for the meantime.


----------



## crisnee

kalston said:


> Edit : ok my first feedback.
> 
> It's very interesting but I don't find it "better" than Isone (and the free Isone Surround) so far. It's good, no doubt (and I have no distortion except some presets that seem to be broken for me) and I like the fact that it works as a virtual soundcard because that means you can use it with absolutely everything including games and films. However for the latter two there is a noticeable delay which makes it unusable for me (well I can adjust the audio/video sync through software so that's ok but no such possibility with games).


 
 I'm curious; how does Isone differ from OOYH, or what does it do to the typical headphone sound, might be a better question. I've heard several people here mention it and am just wondering about it.
  
 Chris


----------



## Taowolf51

This looks really interesting, unfortunately I'm not getting any sound. I have OOYH installed and running, everything looks like it's working except I don't get any audio. When I try music, the channel meters move within OOYH, the correct device is selected and I didn't select OOYH as the default windows device. OOYH has a checkmark next to it and my ODAC has a phone symbol. The OOYH meter in the windows sound menu moves but the ODAC one does not.
  
 From the looks of it it doesn't seem to be transferring correctly from the OOYH to the ODAC. Are there any specific microphone settings I need?
  
 Music is coming from Spotify.


----------



## darinf

taowolf51 said:


> This looks really interesting, unfortunately I'm not getting any sound. I have OOYH installed and running, everything looks like it's working except I don't get any audio. When I try music, the channel meters move within OOYH, the correct device is selected and I didn't select OOYH as the default windows device. OOYH has a checkmark next to it and my ODAC has a phone symbol. The OOYH meter in the windows sound menu moves but the ODAC one does not.
> 
> From the looks of it it doesn't seem to be transferring correctly from the OOYH to the ODAC. Are there any specific microphone settings I need?
> 
> Music is coming from Spotify.


 
 Hi @Taowolf51 ,
  
 Unfortunately, we have found that the ODAC is not working with Out Of Your Head currently. @crisnee brought this to our attention and was gracious enough to send his ODAC to me for testing. I can confirm that it does not work for some reason. Many other USB DAC's work well, but there is something about the ODAC that is not working. It's most likely some problem on our end as the ODAC certainly works fine in other applications.I am also in contact with JDS Labs to see if they can assist in debugging the problem. I also just bought an ODAC to send to my programmer for troubleshooting.
  
 Hopefully we will figure out the problem soon. I am SO sorry about the problem.
  
 In the meantime, if you want to just hear the effect, you can just use the built-in audio of your computer. It's not going to be nearly as good as the ODAC, but you should still hear the localization of the sound outside of your head.
  
 I will update everyone here when we figure it out.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


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## kalston

crisnee said:


> I'm curious; how does Isone differ from OOYH, or what does it do to the typical headphone sound, might be a better question. I've heard several people here mention it and am just wondering about it.
> 
> Chris


 

 Well, according to the OOYH guy Isone is just a "virtual simulation" while OOYH is more like "recordings done with real speaker setups". That being said, the guy behind Isone is a very respectable audio engineer who certainly knows what he's doing as well (would be interesting if he participated to this discussion actually, he used to be active in the Isone thread) and I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate. I mean, the Isone guy used and did measurements with speakers too.


----------



## Chodi

kalston said:


> Well, according to the OOYH guy Isone is just a "virtual simulation" while OOYH is more like "recordings done with real speaker setups". That being said, the guy behind Isone is a very respectable audio engineer who certainly knows what he's doing as well (would be interesting if he participated to this discussion actually, he used to be active in the Isone thread) and I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate. I mean, the Isone guy used and did measurements with speakers too.


 
 The thing about Isone is how easy it is to dial in exactly what you want. If you want a bigger soundstage, more width or depth you can adjust it as you wish. Isone also presents a very convincing out of head experience with the ability to conform it to your own ears and head. I use it every day and have made my own presents which allow me to instantly dial in  the best listening experience for each recording. I guess for me it is the ability to customize Isone to my own listening preference that makes it so indispensable. I went through a lot of equipment before I realized I could achieve the results I was seeking using Isone without spending a fortune changing equipment.


----------



## Taowolf51

I switched over to the XDA-2 and everything seems to be working, it sounds very interesting!
  
 However, I'm getting some major popping on bass notes with some effects. So far, Home Theater has loud popping on every bass note on the song "I Miss You" by Ta-Ku, and the Jan DIY has less loud popping every so often.


----------



## darinf

taowolf51 said:


> I switched over to the XDA-2 and everything seems to be working, it sounds very interesting!
> 
> However, I'm getting some major popping on bass notes with some effects. So far, Home Theater has loud popping on every bass note on the song "I Miss You" by Ta-Ku, and the Jan DIY has less loud popping every so often.


 
  
 You are probably getting some clipping either from your source media player outputting a high level, or the level is too high coming out of Out Of Your Head.
  
 In either case, you can try lowering the output level of your media player. Or you can also adjust the input and output levels in the Out Of Your Head control panel. Those levels will be saved for each preset so you don't have to do it every time.
  
 Alternately, you can also try changing the output level of your DAC/headphone output.
  
 There are a lot of places to adjust levels and it depends on which stage is causing the popping.


----------



## oronga

Seems like the free trial download link is broken; not sure if it mught just be me.


----------



## darinf

oronga said:


> Seems like the free trial download link is broken; not sure if it mught just be me.


 
 I just tested it and it worked.
  
 FYI, the download link is tied to your e-mail address. So you need to put in a real e-mail address when "checking out" and then click on the link in the e-mail you receive.
  
 The download link also expires, so if you need to re-download the trial, just "purchase" it again from https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/


----------



## musicreo

I would like to test the software but it seems that the page can't be  loaded at the moment


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## darinf

musicreo said:


> I would like to test the software but it seems that the page can't be  loaded at the moment


 
 I just checked the site and it's loading/working for me. Anyone else having problems? I also checked it with this site: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/fongaudio.com


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## project86

Works fine for me at the moment.


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## musicreo

It also works for me now. I have just done little testing.
 First Comments:
 The volume output is very low. I have to put up the volume   in my Equalizer to +9db to get normal loudness.
 I tested different settings with  the dolby 5.1/7.1 surround file  (that one that  you used for your demo dowloads on the website). When i used the egyptian theater setting         the           output for LS/LB seem to be much to quiet compared to the RS/RB speakers.
  
 More impressions when I have time to do further testing.


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## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 I'm a big fan of OOYH, but the overall low volume level and the volume level inconsistencies over presets are the biggest issue for me too. I'm boosting 15dbs right now to get to normal levels on my system. I think if the presets could be normalized, not absolutely but for perceived levels, that would be great. 
  
 If I can chime in on the earlier Isone comparisons: Isone uses algorithms to create psychoacoustic effects of distance, width, soundstage space, etc. It can be effective, but it will always be artificial, because it is. The software is synthesizing manipulations of the perceived sound field.
  
 OOYH works from a different principle entirely. Like the Smyth Realiser, it uses "impulse response" technology. An "impulse" spike is "shot" through a real speaker array, in a real room, and then the difference between the source and the live signal is measured. This "response" is then used to process your music to reduplicate what would happen if you were to play the track with that original sound system in that original room. Genius, I think!
  
 It is not artificial; it is virtual. This is is true speaker virtualization. 
  
 This tech can leverage any competent headphone playback system to punch way above its class. When you play back music on your, let's say, $300 average headphones, you are playing back several 100K of recording equipment (amps, consoles, processing gear, etc.). What was always missing was that you could also play back 100Ks of recording equipment--and--100Ks of playback equipment. OOYH, for the first time in affordable software, allows you to do this. It's a game-changer. 
  
 Note: I am in no way affiliated with Darin or OOYH, and paid for all my licenses. I'm just, as I said, a big fan, and can't wait to see how this is going to develop. 
  
 All the best.
  
 Edwardsean


----------



## FraGGleR

So glad I found this thread randomly.  Very cool stuff and very remniscent of the Realiser that I have heard a couple of times.  It is a little steep for me right now to purchase, but I wanted to give a big thumbs up to Darin for creating this software.


----------



## darinf

Thanks for the review @edwardsean and thanks for the feedback @musicreo.
  
 Yes, I agree that the levels are low. I used to have them set higher, but beta testers reported getting clipping during loud passages and especially during loud action movies, so I lowered the levels. I will have to do some more experimentation to find how high I can adjust the levels and still avoid clipping. 
  
 I suppose, if people are getting clipping, they can lower the levels in the Out Of Your Head control panel, but I didn't want people to hear clipping "right out of the box" so I lowered the levels to be safe.
  
 Just to make sure though, there are many places in Windows to adjust the levels. However, it's pretty easy to check to see if it's just Out Of Your Head that is low. If you quit Out Of Your Head and you get good levels, then you're various Windows and media player levels are probably fine. Then once you run Out Of Your Head, yes, the levels will drop, but they shouldn't drop as far as 9dB. I find that for sensitive IEM's on my HRT MicroStreamer, I have to keep the Windows playback level to about 25% for normal listening levels even WITH Out Of Your Head running. However, with my HD800's on the microStreamer, then I have to crank up the levels. Of course if you are using a headphone amp with an actual volume control, then you should have plenty of level on the amp. But for small USB DACs that are using Windows for volume and USB power, then I can see that you might have to have the levels set to max.
  
 As far as equalizing the levels between presets, I do need to go through them and adjust them, but due to the nature of how the preset levels are set, I can't do it in real-time. I have to set a level. Run a batch script to create the preset file. And then load it and listen. If I need to adjust again, I have to repeat the whole process. It's not impossible, just tricky to do.
  
 Alternately, you can also adjust the levels down in the Out Of Your Head control panel and those levels are saved. So everytime you go to that preset, the levels you had set will stay persistent. This is a good way to fine-tune the level matching for your ears and amp between presets.
  


> When i used the egyptian theater setting the output for LS/LB seem to be much to quiet compared to the RS/RB speakers.


 
 Sometimes the channel imbalances can be due to the shape of your ears compared to the shape of the ears of the person's ears that were used to make the measurements. Unfortunately, without doing a custom measurement with your own ears, some people will experience differences like channel levels, speaker positioning, frequency response, etc. I knew this going in to this project that some presets will not be perfect. But, I continue to add to my library of measurements and not just with my ears but with other people's ears. As the library of presets expands, hopefully people will be able to find presets that work better for their ears. 
  
 On some rooms, like the Acoustic Zen room, I have measurements done there with about 5 or 6 different people. I plan to create separate presets for the same room but with different people's ears. This way you can try each one and hopefully one will work well for you.
  
 For the most discriminating users, I would invite them to come to Southern California and have a measurement done with their ears. I know this can be an expensive route to go or impossible for most people, but it still can be a lot cheaper than buying a Realiser. People fly to meets, shows, etc. just to hear gear, so maybe it's not out of the question for the "summit-fi" people.
  
 But for channel levels, you can experiment with adjusting the levels of each of the channels in Out Of Your Head to suit your ears.


----------



## AgentXXL

Darin,
  
  While I'm definitely interested in OOYH and have downloaded the trial and played with it, I'm really curious about the timeline for the Mac version. If I was to purchase a license for OOYH now that I can use on the Bootcamp (Windows) side of my MacBook Pro Retina, will I also be able to use the Mac version on the OSX side when it's released? Or will I have to buy another license? I can't use both at the same time - I can only boot into OSX or BootCamp and would never dream of using VMs for testing this.
  
 If I can buy a license now and use it on the OSX side when the Mac version is released, you probably have another sale.
  
 Let me know.... thanks!
  
 Dale


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> Darin,
> 
> While I'm definitely interested in OOYH and have downloaded the trial and played with it, I'm really curious about the timeline for the Mac version. If I was to purchase a license for OOYH now that I can use on the Bootcamp (Windows) side of my MacBook Pro Retina, will I also be able to use the Mac version on the OSX side when it's released? Or will I have to buy another license? I can't use both at the same time - I can only boot into OSX or BootCamp and would never dream of using VMs for testing this.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Dale,
  
 The OSX version should have been done a long time ago...but you can only imagine what it's like trying to meet deadlines doing software development.
  
 Now I am realistically thinking March 2014 by the time it's working and tested.
  
 In the meantime, a couple of people have had success running Out Of Your Head on OS X in Boot Camp, Parallels, and VMWare Fusion. (VM's actually work OK.)
  
 For any Mac users, since I am so late with the Mac version, I will issue you new licenses for free if you buy any Windows licenses now. I can't really "deactivate" the Windows licenses once they are issued, but that's OK. You will end up with both.
  
 Also, just a reminder, when you purchase an Out Of Your Head license for the app, you only have to buy that once. The license is tied to your e-mail address, NOT you computer. So you only have to ever buy the software ($99 license) once regardless of platform. Then it's the speaker preset licenses that are tied to a specific computer. (Of course, there may be future version upgrade costs for major revisions.)
  
 So if you buy any speaker preset licenses now, for Windows, I will issue you the equivalent Mac licenses for free when the OS X version is released.
  
 I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you need further clarification.
  
 -Darin


----------



## AgentXXL

> Also, just a reminder, when you purchase an Out Of Your Head license for the app, you only have to buy that once. The license is tied to your e-mail address, NOT you computer. So you only have to ever buy the software ($99 license) once regardless of platform. Then it's the speaker preset licenses that are tied to a specific computer. (Of course, there may be future version upgrade costs for major revisions.)
> 
> So if you buy any speaker preset licenses now, for Windows, I will issue you the equivalent Mac licenses for free when the OS X version is released.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, that's 'music to my ears'! I'll be purchasing OOYH shortly and will look forward to the Mac version. Thanks for the very prompt response.
  
 Dale


----------



## AgentXXL

One more question: have you had any thought about a bundle price for all current presets, or even a lifetime subscription model that included future presets? While I suspect I'll settle in to three or four presets after using them for a while, I find it really difficult to 'sit back, relax and just listen with my eyes closed' when I have to change presets back and forth every two minutes.
  
 If a bundle for all presets was available at a fair savings, I'd definitely consider that also.
  
 Dale


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> One more question: have you had any thought about a bundle price for all current presets, or even a lifetime subscription model that included future presets? While I suspect I'll settle in to three or four presets after using them for a while, I find it really difficult to 'sit back, relax and just listen with my eyes closed' when I have to change presets back and forth every two minutes.
> 
> If a bundle for all presets was available at a fair savings, I'd definitely consider that also.
> 
> Dale


 
 Hi Dale,
  
 Yes, I have thought about it, but I never thought that anyone would want all the presets. Some are bound to either not work well or not sound good to any given person. For audiophiles, maybe they would want a lot of presets, but they would also be the most picky about the sound working with their ears. Then for the average person who just wants good surround sound for watching movies, I figured they wouldn't care much about the different presets.
  
 Let me think about that in terms of price. It's not hard to offer that as an option on my store. At full price, all the presets add up to $455.
  
 -Darin


----------



## edwardsean

Dale, 
  
 I'm running OOYH on Parallels and it pretty much just feels like a Mac app. What's cool about running it via a VM (besides being able to keep working on Mac) is that it was easy to access my iTunes library. Also, I can route it through Pure Music on the Mac side. That smooths out some of the digital harshness, adds plugins (EQ),  and handles the upsampling. I love it and will hopefully hold me till March. 
  
 Edwardsean


----------



## AgentXXL

Hmmm, well I assumed we would want the full horsepower of the PC so I chose BootCamp when I purchased OOYH. I might have to do the trial version on a VM and see if I get similar results. If so, I guess I'll be asking Darin to transfer my license to the VM. I spend about 80% of my time on the Mac side, and only 20% on Windows, so running it as a VM might be the better way to go. We'll see...
  
 Dale


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> Hmmm, well I assumed we would want the full horsepower of the PC so I chose BootCamp when I purchased OOYH. I might have to do the trial version on a VM and see if I get similar results. If so, I guess I'll be asking Darin to transfer my license to the VM. I spend about 80% of my time on the Mac side, and only 20% on Windows, so running it as a VM might be the better way to go. We'll see...
> 
> Dale


 
 No problem to issue you new licenses. Just e-mail me your UUID from within the Out Of Your Head control panel.
  
 I personally have had better luck with USB DAC support in VMWare Fusion over Parallels, but they both work well with the built-in Mac audio. 
  
 Also, for movies, a virtual machine might have trouble decoding say a 1080p H.264 movie file. The audio can have some glitches.  I have not tried watching an actual DVD on a VM on my Macbook.
  
 Music playback works well.


----------



## Schonen

I will never buy it because you are overzealous with the DRM. Tying it to both my email address (which may change) and my hardware, which changes often, is unacceptable. Go read up about the backlash against game publishers that tried this sort of DRM, it isn't a petty picture.
  
"The Out Of Your Head speaker presets are associated with your computer’s unique ID. If you get a new computer or change a major component of your system like a hard drive or motherboard, etc. then your computer’s unique ID will change."
  
Oh, and the fact you want my email address and *full name* just to try a demo is very nosy. Added to my do not trust list along with NSA and Obama.


----------



## darinf

schonen said:


> "The Out Of Your Head speaker presets are associated with your computer’s unique ID. If you get a new computer or change a major component of your system like a hard drive or motherboard, etc. then your computer’s unique ID will change."


 
 As others can attest to, all you have to do is e-mail me and I can issue you a new license for a new computer, new e-mail address, etc. I am a reasonable person. It's a very simple process. It's really just a deterrent to discourage people from stealing my software. For people who actually buy it, you won't have a problem.
  
 You don't have to use your main e-mail address. I am not the first person to ask for an e-mail address. I think that's pretty common these days. For the trial, you just need a working e-mail address. You don't have to use your real name if you don't want to.
  
 But just like everyone else, when you purchase something, you do have to use your real identity. That's more for the credit card company or PayPal, etc.


----------



## Schonen

I did download the demo and didn't use my real name but you shouldn't be asking for it anyway is my point. Having to email and ask for a new license every time I change hardware is not acceptable, sorry. I doubt I will even bother installing the demo now because I will never buy it with those license restrictions. I've been annoyed by DRM in games one too many times so now I vote with my wallet against it. IMO, you will sell more by trusting people than not trusting them. A sale lost to piracy is not a lost sale because the pirate would never have bought it anyway. My $0.02.
  
 DRM tied to a computer hardware config is the worst possible kind of DRM there is. Simple serial code not good enough for you?


----------



## FraGGleR

schonen said:


> I did download the demo and didn't use my real name but you shouldn't be asking for it anyway is my point. Having to email and ask for a new license every time I change hardware is not acceptable, sorry. I doubt I will even bother installing the demo now because I will never buy it with those license restrictions. I've been annoyed by DRM in games one too many times so now I vote with my wallet against it. IMO, you will sell more by trusting people than not trusting them. A sale lost to piracy is not a lost sale because the pirate would never have bought it anyway. My $0.02.
> 
> DRM tied to a computer hardware config is the worst possible kind of DRM there is. Simple serial code not good enough for you?


 
 Why shouldn't he ask for your name?  He is a private developer of software and wants to know who is using it.  He is fully within his rights to do that.  There is no right to anonymity.  If you want to move through life without anyone knowing who you are, then you have to be willing to make the sacrifices to do so.  It is ludicrous to demand that all companies bow to what you think is acceptable just because you have hardware ADD and are too lazy to send a simple email to get a new license.  Funny you chastise him for not trusting people when you are freaking out over him asking what your name was.
  
 As for piracy, it isn't the people who will never buy that is the issue, it is the people in the middle - the people who, given the choice, would take "free" over paying for something if the serials or exploits aren't hard to deal with.  Why buy from iTunes when you can just google for an mp3?  There are a lot of those people.  Those are potential sales that DRM and strict licensing are geared towards protecting.  In particular for small developers, this is a big deal.  In general, I dislike DRM because it restricts how freely I can use what I purchase, but I understand why it is there and do my best to accommodate it, since I am thankful people are making things that are worth buying.  Darin seems to be very understanding and is willing to personally deal with any issues that crop up.  That is something the big gaming companies will not do.
  
 I try (and fail) to not interject like this, but the amount of lack of civility and understanding in your posts really bugged the crap out of me.


----------



## Schonen

I bet you actually give your phone number to those stores that want it to sell to a telemarketing list when they ask for it. <roll eyes>
  
 Lack of civility? I can hear 100 violins playing for you right now.
  
 Yea, I am hostile to DRM because it has screwed me over and waster hours of my time.


----------



## FraGGleR

schonen said:


> I bet you actually give your phone number to those stores that want it to sell to a telemarketing list when they ask for it. <roll eyes>
> 
> Lack of civility? I can hear 100 violins playing for you right now.
> 
> Yea, I am hostile to DRM because it has screwed me over and waster hours of my time.


 
  
 If you could get over yourself and installed the demo, you could hear the 100 violins playing in surround sound off of some very nice speakers.


----------



## suicidal_orange

I don't use Windows so I've just given the demo dowloads a go using the onboard soundcard of a netbook and I have to say that this sounds really good!
  
 I wonder if it would be possible to run it in wine under Linux and record the output for portable use?  Will have to give it a go when this "Christmas" Malarky is over...
  
 Edit:  Or not.  Download link e-mail states you need 64 bit Windows


----------



## edwardsean

For Mac users, who have a decently fast machine and amount of RAM, I can say a VM can handle OOYH pretty effortlessly even for watching movies. (Though it does take a bit of rigging to get it to work right.) I bought OOYH for stereo music but it really shines with multi-channel sound on a 7.1 virtualization preset. 
  
 I just bought the Home Theater preset, and with VLC, it decodes multichannel audio flawlessly. It's outrageously good. The imaging is just spectacular. Again, there are other ways of decoding 5.1 or 7.1 on headphones (e.g., Flux Ircam HEar), but nothing like this. This reproduces actual speakers positioned in a sonically treated room. That was always the trade-off of headphone listening. You got rid of all the bad room acoustics (standing waves and resonant peaks), but you also got rid of the room! This gives you back a room, but not your acoustic nightmare of a living room; a professionally treated space. (This is one of those rare cases where you get to have your cake, sonically reproduce it, and eat it too--whenever you want, just as good, without calories.)
  
 For big movies I use the Egyptian Theater preset. When I first heard it, I thought when would I ever use that preset. But, well, movies like "Pacific Rim," because, you know, giant robots. It can't image as precisely as Home Theater because the speakers are so much "further" from you. But, the sense of huge theater space really helps build the psychological scale of the images. Now if only someone could make a video version of this software, you'd never have to go to AMC-Loews again. (If I become anti-social I'm going to blame Darin.)
  
 Happy listening everyone.


----------



## Schonen

fraggler said:


> If you could get over yourself and installed the demo, you could hear the 100 violins playing in surround sound off of some very nice speakers.


 
 But will it make 100 violins sound like 1,000? 
  
 I am over myself, and this software and also that JRiverMC.  It seems to me paid for software comes with more annoyances than the free software. JRiver even throws in some advertising partners and still wants me to pay $59.99 for the privilege of being advertised to.  Nope.


----------



## AgentXXL

I had a chance last night to spend some decent amount of time with OOYH. Alas the one 'gotcha' that I'm still struggling with is clipping when there are explosions or very loud noises, whether they are comprised of lows, mids, highs or a combo. If I set the volume low enough so that I don't get clipping, then I find it really difficult to listen to.
  
 Like EdwardSean, I bought it with the standard 7.1 home theater preset and have tried it with JRiver, VLC and even my old standby of ZoomPlayer. All are very configureable, but I can't seem to find a combination of settings that work to allow a decent volume level and not clip/overdrive my headphones when there's a loud scene.
  
 FYI - I didn't encounter this when I was demoing the software. Any suggestions?
  
 Dale


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> I had a chance last night to spend some decent amount of time with OOYH. Alas the one 'gotcha' that I'm still struggling with is clipping when there are explosions or very loud noises, whether they are comprised of lows, mids, highs or a combo. If I set the volume low enough so that I don't get clipping, then I find it really difficult to listen to.
> 
> Like EdwardSean, I bought it with the standard 7.1 home theater preset and have tried it with JRiver, VLC and even my old standby of ZoomPlayer. All are very configureable, but I can't seem to find a combination of settings that work to allow a decent volume level and not clip/overdrive my headphones when there's a loud scene.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Dale,
  
 Yes, loud explosions, etc. can result in clipping. I try to start with the levels lower going into my software, and that is why some has mentioned that the level is much lower through Out Of Your Head . Part of it is the nature of the processing I am doing. I am also not doing any kind of compression, etc. to try to preserve the dynamics of the speakers measured. The thing to remember is that Out Of Your Head has to take the audio from all 8 channels and combine them into two channels. During a loud explosion in a movie where a lot of sound can come from all 8 channels at once, the sum of all that sound can cause clipping since it can be 8 times as much sound as one channel in conventional stereo listening. The sound from all 8 speakers is arriving at both ears, not just the sound from the left channel going to the left ear as in stereo listening. Even though we are doing all the processing at 32bits, people want the level to be higher so that lower end of the 32 bits is too quiet or much lower than people are used to have coming out of their media players,DACs, etc.
  
 I find the best thing to do is to adjust the input channel levels down on the Out Of Your Head control panel on the preset you are using to avoid clipping. Then adjust the output level of your DAC up higher and/or your headphone amp. I find that once the audio is output from Out Of Your Head , you can adjust the output levels of the DACS or amps up without any clipping problems.
  
 I know this is different than you might be used to when Out Of Your Head is not used and the output levels of your DAC and amp may be a lot higher than you normally use, but that may be one way to avoid clipping and yet still have enough volume to hear during the quieter passages.
  
 I tend to have to have the DAC or amp levels set pretty high for high impedance headphones.
  
 -Darin


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## crisnee

agentxxl said:


> I had a chance last night to spend some decent amount of time with OOYH. Alas the one 'gotcha' that I'm still struggling with is clipping when there are explosions or very loud noises, whether they are comprised of lows, mids, highs or a combo. If I set the volume low enough so that I don't get clipping, then I find it really difficult to listen to.
> 
> Dale


 
 Does this happen with music, or just movies? If just movies, you might consider a limiter, or if it's just very occasionally with music you might consider it there too. Also, JRMC has a soft clipping setting, have you tried that?
  
 Another option is a compressor, something I wish car stereos came with. I think I've seen free or very inexpensive versions of these. Is the clipping so bad that you hear it, or does it just show on the meter(s)?
  
 -Chris


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## musicreo

I had some time to do further testing. 
  
 The egyptian theater room is strange. LB/RB don't work for me. It is just 5.1 not 7.1.
  
 With normal levels clipping occurs during playback. So I have to lower the volume of the input to OOYH. I think if someone pays for software this shouldn't happen.
  
  
 For me only 3 rooms sound acceptable. The rest is terrible for my ears. With music I don't like any room so far.  At the moment I don't see a advantage of OOYH compared to the  Dolby Headphone option of my Asus Xonar U1, which was 5 times cheaper than the OOYH software.


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## AgentXXL

crisnee said:


> agentxxl said:
> 
> 
> > I had a chance last night to spend some decent amount of time with OOYH. Alas the one 'gotcha' that I'm still struggling with is clipping when there are explosions or very loud noises, whether they are comprised of lows, mids, highs or a combo. If I set the volume low enough so that I don't get clipping, then I find it really difficult to listen to.
> ...


 
  
 It happens with both music and movies. I haven't tried the soft-clipping setting in JRMC - still not sure if I'm going to purchase it. JRMC seems decent but both VLC and ZoomPlayer are also both very configurable. I've been an owner/user of Zoomplayer for over 10 years and it still holds up very nicely in today's marketplace. That said, now that I'm primarily a Mac user, I tend to use VLC and Plex the most. I'm sure I can do something based on the information both you and Darin provided. I'll give it another go later today.
  
 Dale


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## AgentXXL

musicreo said:


> I had some time to do further testing.
> 
> The egyptian theater room is strange. LB/RB don't work for me. It is just 5.1 not 7.1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The only rooms which I find acceptable with music are the 2 channel setups. And even those take a bit of fiddling to get used to. The specific advantage I see of OOYH is being able to replicate (to a degree) the environments that the various presets represent. It's not a simulated environment - it's based on actual measurements, just like the Smyth Realizer. Still, you're trying to emulate environments that are using speakers, and as good as some headphones are, they just can't equal a full speaker setup. But they are very useful when you have to limit the impact to those around you - my neighbors and their intolerance of loud noise is what made me move towards a really good set of headphones. I'm still working on both the DAC and amplifier I use to feed them, and now adding options like OOYH to improve my enjoyment of the system.
  
 Dolby Headphone has it's place, but it's not perfect either. If you want something that actually does quite well for creating a simple surround environment, try the free Razer surround software mentioned earlier in the thread. Entirely simulated and not very high quality, but enjoyable in certain situations. To me, OOYH is the closest I'll come to owning a Smyth Realizer - even given the small quirks I'm working with, I don't regret the purchase.
  
 Dale


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## hekeli

> Originally Posted by *AgentXXL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> it's based on actual measurements, just like the Smyth Realizer


 
  
 I'm pretty sure it IS based on Realiser measurements. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I doubt Darin came up with a microphone rig himself. You just need to record the impulse response from the Realiser PRIRs, just like has been already done in the PRIR threads and there's a guide on how to use them on PC with VST-plugins. Darin just packaged things up nicely to a single software. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong..
  
 Darin, I'm curious is if you are going to make your own rig, since you said you are maybe planning to create hi-res stuff and obviously Realiser is limited to 48khz..


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## kalston

By the way, are there any plans to make a good old OOYH VST plugin? I think I'd prefer that over a virtual soundcard (so that I'd only use it with say, JRiver MC, but not have to worry about toggling it off when playing games or watching vids online and such).
 Though I guess if you made a low latency version I would not be asking for that  But I do also prefer to use ASIO to bypass Windows audio when using JRiver MC for both music and films so as it is I have to switch back to Directsound and I'm not a fan of that (I mean my audio goes through windows mixer and THEN my soundcard mixer since I have an Asus Xonar card... tons of unnecessary processing and OOYH adds even more on top of that so meh)
  
 I've been playing around with the Razer surround thingie and it's a virtual soundcard like OOYH but the latency is really low which is great for games (and films). The quality isn't all that amazing though (guess they value speed over quality) and there's not enough settings that you can adjust for my taste. Not many games have great sound quality to start with but I find that some atmospheric single player games benefit a lot even from just simple virtual surround like Razer. OOYH could probably make things even better


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## darinf

kalston said:


> By the way, are there any plans to make a good old OOYH VST plugin? I think I'd prefer that over a virtual soundcard (so that I'd only use it with say, JRiver MC, but not have to worry about toggling it off when playing games or watching vids online and such).
> Though I guess if you made a low latency version I would not be asking for that  But I do also prefer to use ASIO to bypass Windows audio when using JRiver MC for both music and films so as it is I have to switch back to Directsound and I'm not a fan of that (I mean my audio goes through windows mixer and THEN my soundcard mixer since I have an Asus Xonar card... tons of unnecessary processing and OOYH adds even more on top of that so meh)
> 
> I've been playing around with the Razer surround thingie and it's a virtual soundcard like OOYH but the latency is really low which is great for games (and films). The quality isn't all that amazing though (guess they value speed over quality) and there's not enough settings that you can adjust for my taste. Not many games have great sound quality to start with but I find that some atmospheric single player games benefit a lot even from just simple virtual surround like Razer. OOYH could probably make things even better


 
 Right now, there are no plans to make a VST plug-in. I have thought about it, but right now my focus is on getting all the various platform versions done. I really wanted Out Of Your Head to be easy to use for the average person, not necessarily an audiophile or audio engineer, etc. I understand about having to switch it on and off if you are using the default Direct Sound device for all your media and games. I am not a gamer, but I assume the games can be configured to use a specific audio device instead of the "default" one. This way each game could be set to "bypass" Out Of Your Head even if it's running.
  
 You can configure say JRiver to use WASAPI and Out Of Your Head instead of Direct Sound. You can see how to do it in this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/15#post_9961640
  
 You might be able to do a similar thing in other software.
  
 I am definitely working on a low latency, lower quality version for gamers. I still think I can get much more realistic virtual surround than the other software gaming solutions like Razor, Dolby Headphone, etc.


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## kalston

Understood. Yea WASAPI could work but I've had issues with it (and it doesn't bypass the Xonar drivers mixer so it doesn't change the sampling rate etc). 
  
 And the thing is most games can't be configured much and just use the "primary audio device". Some can be configured of course but many can't. So it's a real pain and that's why OOYH or the Razer thing are a step in the right direction. 
  
 I will be looking forward to your gamer version then


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## John_M

> I am definitely working on a low latency, lower quality version for gamers. I still think I can get much more realistic virtual surround than the other software gaming solutions like Razor, Dolby Headphone, etc.


 
  
 What people will want from a gaming version is positional accuracy above all else. Bear that in mind.  Dolby Headphone is OK at this but fails noticeably in some respects e.g. detecting when someone is above or below you.
  
 By the way, what is the latency of the current product?


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## kalston

john_m said:


> What people will want from a gaming version is positional accuracy above all else. Bear that in mind.  Dolby Headphone is OK at this but fails noticeably in some respects e.g. detecting when someone is above or below you.
> 
> By the way, what is the latency of the current product?


 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/45#post_10004089
  
 So 400ms. And as for the positional accuracy, in my experience it depends a lot on the game's sound engine and sound quality. Many games compress the sound way too harshly and use a bad audio engine (or even lack true surround support in some cases), so even on a proper surround setup you often won't get great accuracy. You can't hear above and below... because the game's audio is lackluster. Some games do have great sound of course but positioning accuracy with virtual surround has never really been my biggest gripe tbh. (and yes I'm a big FPS gamer)


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## John_M

The positional accuracy does depend on the game, I agree, but it's also affected by how well the surround algorithm works and not all surround sound algorithms are equal. CMSS:3D lets you hear above and below much better than Dolby Headphone does using the same game source data.

For a gaming algorithm he needs lower latency and, if he has to sacrifice something to get it, sacrifice sound quality rather than positional accuracy. I think you'll agree that you don't want to get killed (or miss a potential kill) through mis-hearing where someone is, just to get nice sound.

400ms sounds a bit high for films as well, although clearly you have more latitude to get away with latency than you do in games.

Darin, I'm interesting in buying this but I can see from the previous posts that there are some issues with the software e.g. clipping on explosions. Will you be tweaking/ optimising it some more and, if so, would I get any updates for free? And if a gaming version is released would I need to pay for that separately?


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## Shike

I got a chance to try it out yesterday, and I tried it again today but . . . it  sounds wonky no matter what speakers I use (either hollow, bloated, tinny, sound coming from wrong places).  I guess my HRTF is too far off.  In terms of positional accuracy Dolby Headphone wins for me.  In terms of actual quality Isone sounds better.  As such I can't justify it at this time.
  
 The only opinion I can offer is more HRTF profiles that may fix the sound issue and less obtrusive DRM.  Yes, I echo the DRM concern.  The DRM is more crippling than Windows DRM.  It's not like the company has the almost guaranteed stability MS has either.  If the company goes under, is sold, or ends up abandoned for whatever reason (owner passing for example) then the DRM may very well be locked to a machine that can never be upgraded or fixed.
  
 If the software gets popular, it will get cracked - that's just a fact.  This DRM though would turn me off even if it worked perfectly, and I imagine others would DL a cracked version out of spite.


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## darinf

shike said:


> I got a chance to try it out yesterday, and I tried it again today but . . . it  sounds wonky no matter what speakers I use (either hollow, bloated, tinny, sound coming from wrong places).  I guess my HRTF is too far off.  In terms of positional accuracy Dolby Headphone wins for me.  In terms of actual quality Isone sounds better.  As such I can't justify it at this time.
> 
> The only opinion I can offer is more HRTF profiles that may fix the sound issue and less obtrusive DRM.  Yes, I echo the DRM concern.  The DRM is more crippling than Windows DRM.  It's not like the company has the almost guaranteed stability MS has either.  If the company goes under, is sold, or ends up abandoned for whatever reason (owner passing for example) then the DRM may very well be locked to a machine that can never be upgraded or fixed.
> 
> If the software gets popular, it will get cracked - that's just a fact.  This DRM though would turn me off even if it worked perfectly, and I imagine others would DL a cracked version out of spite.


 
 Hi Shike,
  
 First, thanks trying Out Of Your Head. And thanks for your review, really. 
  
 I always knew that since Out Of Your Head is dependent on HRTF compatibility, that there will be a segment of the population that it will simply not work well. I have listened to OOYH with some other people's HRTF which sound completely off to me, but I know they sound great to the person whose HRTF I as using.
  
 That's why there is a trial version. If it doesn't work for you and you don't like it, that's totally fine and expected for some people. I wish there was a way to make it work well for everyone, but that's like saying I wish there was a way to make a pair of headphones that sounds good to everyone. Or using my "jeans" analogy again, I know there are people for which it will not be a good fit. One size does not fit all.

 I really appreciate that you assumed it was an incompatibility with your HRTF rather than just saying it's bad software.
  
 The only thing I ask is that people try it for themselves rather than hear that one person didn't like it, therefore it's no good or not worth trying.
  
 At THE Show in Vegas this week, I can't tell you how many people that I gave demos to literally said, "Holy cr@p!!" when I played them a surround music track. Yes, a couple people were not impressed, but again overall, a majority of the people found that it worked well.
  
 With regard to DRM:
  
 DRM sucks! Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. So why should I have it if it sucks?
  
 I would argue that the smaller the company, the more that piracy affects them. I know this has been said before, even in this thread, but every copy of my software stolen has a much bigger impact on my bottom line than a huge company like Microsoft. I don't buy the argument that someone who steals it would never have bought it in the first place. I think that if someone wanted it bad enough and they couldn't steal it, they would buy it.
  
 Also, if someday my software gets popular enough and someone cracks it, that's OK because if it's popular enough to spend the time cracking it, I am probably selling enough copies such that a few stolen copies is not going to affect me as much as it would now.
  
 Sure we could argue the pros and cons of DRM forever. It would not be the first time. But I decided it was important to me to try to protect my software. Will I potentially lose customers because of it? I am sure I will. But will I sell more copies because of it? I think so. Who knows, I could change my mind someday, but for now hopefully people will understand why it's there. Sure someone may steal it just to spite me or punish me for having DRM, but I don't know if that same person would voluntarily send me money if I made it donation-ware to reward me for the lack of DRM.
  
 Or if you are worried about the future of me or my company, you could wait until we release something on the App Store or the Google Play Store. Then you could feel secure that Apple or Google will be around to help you with your licenses if I die. 
  
 But seriously, thank you for taking the time to give Out Of Your Head a try. That's all I ask.  I think negative feedback is the best way to improve and grow and learn.


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## darinf

john_m said:


> Darin, I'm interesting in buying this but I can see from the previous posts that there are some issues with the software e.g. clipping on explosions. Will you be tweaking/ optimising it some more and, if so, would I get any updates for free? And if a gaming version is released would I need to pay for that separately?


 
 Hi John,
  
 Sorry I just saw the bottom of your post.
  
 The issue with clipping is there. But there was also an issue with the levels being to low. So, I decided to adjust the levels up higher by default so overall most of the time it will work better.
  
 For those situations where you do experience clipping, you can usually just lower the output level from your media player and then the signal level will be lower when fed to Out Of Your Head and avoid the clipping.
  
 Alternately if that doesn't work, you can lower the input levels on the Out Of Your Head control panel interface. Whenever you set those levels, the settings are automatically saved so they will remain there in the future.
  
 I felt that it was better to have to adjust the levels down once in a while instead of having the levels too low all the time just in case there was a loud explosion at some point.
  
 It's not ideal, but as you can imagine, trying to get a setting that can accommodate all movie soundtracks and all music is tough if not impossible. 
  
 I do have several ideas of thing I could implement to help with the clipping issues. Maybe some kind of limiter that could be switched on?  Maybe JRiver or Foobar already has a way to add a limiter?
  
 As far as a gaming version goes, since there isn't one, I haven't really figured out how I would charge or not charge for it. When I have thought about alternate versions like a gaming version or a high bit rate version, etc. I thought I would be able to make it a new preset rather than a whole new version of the software. So, I would release, say, a gaming compatible preset which you could purchase if you wanted to play games. Same goes for a high bit rate preset, etc.
  
 I have to be totally honest, I don't know. I can say for sure that I would not make you "start over" and buy a whole new version if you already bought the software. There would be some kind of upgrade path. Sorry I can't give you a definite answer at this point.


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## dlaloum

Hi folks,
  
 I have been following the Smyth Realiser and other such solutions for years, then I stumbled on this thread a few weeks ago.
  
 This led to my trying and buying OOYH.
  
 I did have quite a series of issues with the DRM, however Darin Fong helped out repeatedly until we had it sorted out (apparently we found a bug?).
 Given that this was happening during CES and he was responding late at night, I truly appreciate the time and effort put it.
  
 Good service and great product!
  
 This is the biggest single upgrade to my listening in quite some time
  
 thank you Darin
  
 bye for now

 David


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## Edwood

Tried Darin Fong's Out of Your Head demo.  Works very well.  Even has AIX Records Preset.  But there is a significant delay to audio in my set up, I really notice it when watching movies and the audio being out of sync with people talking.  On my system (4GHz Sandy Bridge) it's using about 5% CPU.
  
 Comparing it to my SVS Realiser with AIX Records Profile, the Out Of Your Head version is very veiled sounding.  Like cotton balls stuffed in my ears.  That's where the personal PRIR measurements for the SVS Realiser really make the difference.
  
 But overall, Out Of Your Head is very impressive, and sounds better than all the other systems out there.  I wish he made a USB sound card that would run his virtual driver as an actual driver, and fix the audio delay.
  
 Darin.  What kind of "Head" did you use with your microphones when measuring sounds at each venue?  A Neumann dummy head with ears?  Your own head?  A custom made Head with ears?  Or did you just use open mics with a barrier in between?


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## darinf

edwood said:


> Tried Darin Fong's Out of Your Head demo.  Works very well.  Even has AIX Records Preset.  But there is a significant delay to audio in my set up, I really notice it when watching movies and the audio being out of sync with people talking.  On my system (4GHz Sandy Bridge) it's using about 5% CPU.
> 
> Comparing it to my SVS Realiser with AIX Records Profile, the Out Of Your Head version is very veiled sounding.  Like cotton balls stuffed in my ears.  That's where the personal PRIR measurements for the SVS Realiser really make the difference.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Edwood . I responded to your post on the Realiser thread before I saw your post here.
  
 But to answer your questions:
  
 I do not have a dummy head. I have been trying to find a Neumann head to test, but they are expensive. For my measurements, I use real heads. I use my head of course, it's pretty much a "dummy head". But I also try to use other people's heads too when I can. So you will hear differences from one preset to the next since they have different HRTF's. If the AIX preset doesn't work as well for you, you might see if the Mi Casa preset is better. That is a different person's head than the AIX preset.
  
 Of course, you can always e-mail me your favorite PRIR/HPEQ files and I can create a custom preset to use in Out Of Your Head which should work better for you. I would be willing to create the preset as a trial for you. In addition to the Out Of Your Head software license, the PRIR conversion service/license fee is $150 per PRIR conversion.


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## hekeli

edwood said:


> I really notice it when watching movies and the audio being out of sync with people talking.


 
  
 Obviously these days pretty much any player has audio/video delay settings, just save some default value..


----------



## valleynomad

In theory the dynamic range of each headphone channel is N/2 times of each speaker channel. N here is the number of total channels. So compared with the stereo setup,  7.1 configuration has a 300% dynamic range.increase that has to be handled correctly by both digital and analog sections of the whole system in order to keep S/N ratio and avoid the clipping.


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## valleynomad

My understanding is that the delay is caused by certain DSP algorithm that needs the "future" inputs in order to perform the simpler arithmetics in frequency domain instead of more complex convolution in time domain. If CPU is fast enough, doing the computation in time domain may minimize the delay.


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## Tachikoma

I've tried out the trial software, and I could tell that I was listening to speakers, but other than that it didn't sound very good. Maybe it would be better if you focused more on 2.0 setups to avoid having to "virtualise" stereo inputs to 7.1?


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## darinf

tachikoma said:


> I've tried out the trial software, and I could tell that I was listening to speakers, but other than that it didn't sound very good. Maybe it would be better if you focused more on 2.0 setups to avoid having to "virtualise" stereo inputs to 7.1?


 
 FYI, there is no "virtualization" to 7.1 channels. Most of the presets can handle up to 7.1 channels of audio, but only if your source is 7.1 audio.
  
 If you feed it 2.0 channels of audio, that's what is output via Out Of Your Head. You will hear sound coming from just the left and right virtual speakers. There will be no sound from an of the other speakers. 
  
 Out Of Your Head does not "up-convert" to more channels. "What you feed it is what you get", so to speak.


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## FangJoker

Is there a list of presets and what they are based on?  I have no idea what some of them are supposed to be.


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## darinf

vegasf1 said:


> Is there a list of presets and what they are based on?  I have no idea what some of them are supposed to be.


 
 There is a complete list on my website in the FAQ, it's the 7th question down, "What speaker measurement presets are available?" (Not sure as MOT if I am allowed to link to my website, but you can find it easily.)
  
 The presets are not "based on" these speakers and rooms, the presets are actual measurements of these speakers and rooms. I am not generating or simulating those speakers. I am just "playing back" the sound signature and acoustics that I "recorded".
  
Here is a list of the speakers that have been measured and are currently available. _(We are always adding to the library of speakers.)_
 
 *Acoustic Zen: Crescendo Speakers* ($16,000/pair MSRP)
 a 7.1 configuration. Ribbon tweeters and dynamic mids and woofers.2.0
*Magico: Q3 Speakers* ($39,000/pair)
 7.1 configuration.  They are made of aluminum instead of wood. Some think are the best sounding speakers in the world. These speakers are in a dealer’s showroom
*Genelec Recording Studio*
 A high end recording studio with Genelec speakers in a 7.1 speaker configuration
*The Egyptian Theater*
 This preset reproduces the sound as if you were sitting in the middle of the Egyptian Movie Theater in Los Angeles., California. This is a 5.1 speaker configuration.
*Home Theater*
 A high end 7.1 home theater system in a private home
*Janszen Speakers *($8750/pair)
 electrostatic speakers in a 7.1 configuration. Small in size, but big in sound. 2.5 way, (Woofer – Tweeter – Woofer) configuration.
*Sonus Faber: Elipsa Speakers *($12,000/pair)
 Elipsa speakers in a dealer’s listening room. This is a 7.1 configuration.
*AIX Recording Studio*
 This preset was made at the AIX Recording Studio in Los Angeles, California. AIX specializes in audiophile multi-channel recordings.
*Focal: Scala Utopian Speakers *($29,950/pair)
 They are a flagship, floor standing speaker. This is a 7.1 configuration.
*Wilson Audio: Sasha W/P* ($29,000/pair)
 Amazing  floor standing dynamic speakers in a 2.0 channel configuration
*Prototype Ribbon Speakers*
 Full range ribbon speakers. These are prototype speakers which are still in the experimental stage. 7.1 configuration
*Cello: Stradivari Premiere Speakers ($18,000/pair)*
 Originally designed and built by Mark Levinson. 7.1 configuration
*Acapella: Spharon *($325,000/pair)
 They have two huge horns for the tweeter and mid range. The bass has four 15inch woofers per channel. The speakers are 7.5 feet tall and weigh 1,364 pounds each!
*Jan’s DIY Speakers*
 These speakers were custom built by the owner. They have a 15 inch woofer, dynamic mid, and ribbon tweeter. The drivers are each driven with separate amps and a DSP for the crossover.
*Mi Casa Recording Studio*
 This preset was recorded at the Mi Casa Multimedia recording studios in Los Angeles, CA.  This studio has Genelec speakers in a 7.1 configuration.
*Quad:ESL Speakers*
 The legendary Quad ESL electrostatic panel speakers. This preset is 2.0 channels and is great for critical music listening.
*Magnepan: Mini Maggie Speakers*
 This 2 channel preset has two small desktop electrostatic speakers known as “Mini Maggies” with a subwoofer to handle the low end.
*Revel: Ultima Studio Speakers*
 a private home with a pair of Revel Ultima Studio speakers. 7.1 speaker configuration.
*Acoustic Zen: Adagio Speakers Experimental*
 Prototype speakers based on the Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. speakers, but they are MUCH better. 7.1 speaker configuration.
*Marten: Coltrane Momento Speakers *($165,000/pair)
 Dynamic spakers with wood and carbon fiber body. It has four 9-inch ceramic woofers, four 9-inch passive radiators and one 7-inch ceramic midrange driver and a 1-inch diamond tweeter.
*Acapella: Triolon Excalibur MK V Speakers *($175,000/pair)
 Two subwoofer towers, each with four 10-inch subwoofers, two 31-inch horns, two 19-inch horns, and ion tweeter. The speakers are 7 feet tall and weigh 880 pounds each! 7.1 channel configuration.


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## FangJoker

Thanks I didn't see that.  The price is kinda steep for software, but it does sound good from the movie demos I downloaded.  I'll have to think about it hard.   So the 325k speakers preset doesn't necessary mean that it sounds the best right? I'd probably only use it for movies and tv shows so I have to think about it.


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## darinf

vegasf1 said:


> Thanks I didn't see that.  The price is kinda steep for software, but it does sound good from the movie demos I downloaded.  I'll have to think about it hard.   So the 325k speakers preset doesn't necessary mean that it sounds the best right? I'd probably only use it for movies and tv shows so I have to think about it.


 
 It's really up to you to figure out which preset sounds best. For Out Of Your Head, that is why I have a lot of presets. Everyone has different tastes and you will find that some presets just work better than others for your ears. The presets are somewhat dependent on your ear shape.
  
 I always recommend people download the trial so they can hear each preset with their own equipment and their own ears and your own music/movies. Most people find that one or two presets stand out above the rest for their ears.
  
 I realize that software pricing can seem pretty arbitrary since there are no obvious costs like with hardware. However, development costs can be significant. Also as my first product in a niche market, I have to factor in how many copies I could possibly sell to recoup my investment. There are SO many factors when setting pricing. I think I need an MBA to figure it out!
  
 If you consider the fact that the only other way to get similar performance is to buy a $3000 piece of hardware, $149 seems pretty reasonable. Or consider the time and expense involved in buying and setting up a 7.1 home theater system. Installing software and paying $149 seems a lot easier.


----------



## FangJoker

If I watched movies on the computer a lot then it would be a no brainer. But I watch most of my movies and TV shows on the TV. The demo samples were impressive for sure. 

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


----------



## darinf

vegasf1 said:


> If I watched movies on the computer a lot then it would be a no brainer. But I watch most of my movies and TV shows on the TV. The demo samples were impressive for sure.
> 
> Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


 
 Yes. Due to the processing requirements of Out Of Your Head and the fact that I didn't want to get into the hardware business, Out Of Your Head does require a computer.
  
 However, most computers have an HDMI output which will connect to most TV's. So that's an easy way to watch movies on your TV. You can either rip your movies to hard drives or a media server. Or you can watch disks as long as your computer has an optical drive. A computer or laptop works great as a media player.
  
 For live TV, it's a little tougher. Basically you have to have some kind of tuner connected to your computer. If you want to access all your digital cable channels, then you have to have a tuner which accepts cable cards and get a cable card from your cable provider. The similar holds true for satellite TV. You could get a Silicon Dust HDHomerun Prime tuner which works over ethernet or wifi. It's kind of like a network streaming tuner that accepts cable cards. For $129 it's a pretty slick solution for getting live cable TV on any computer in the house.
  
 I know that none of this is ideal, but at least there are solutions if you are willing to do a little work.


----------



## TIMITS

I am waiting for the OSX version but I do have one question.  With the trial version I see that I will be able to audition each speaker preset for 2 minutes before it stops.  Have you given some thought to what will happen once the software is purchased and you add additional speakers to the existing library? Will I still be able to audition new presets?


----------



## Indiehouse

Looks interesting!


----------



## Lohb

Really interested to try this on OSX...any updated timescale on that ?


----------



## darinf

timits said:


> I am waiting for the OSX version but I do have one question.  With the trial version I see that I will be able to audition each speaker preset for 2 minutes before it stops.  Have you given some thought to what will happen once the software is purchased and you add additional speakers to the existing library? Will I still be able to audition new presets?


 
  
 FYI, the two minute timer is reset every time you switch presets. If you switch presets before the two minutes is up, the timer will never "go off" and the sound will continue. So, to have more "continuous" listening, you can switch to another preset and back to your original preset every 110 seconds to get a longer audition of each preset.
  
 When new presets are added, the new presets will be downloadable separately. Or I may just have an updated version download where you would uninstall the current version and install the new version which would install the new presets. Or I may have both options. The preset files can be added or removed simply by copying the preset files to the Out Of Your Head install directory.
  


lohb said:


> Really interested to try this on OSX...any updated timescale on that ?


 
  
 The OS X version was supposed to be done a long time ago. But rather than just port everything to OS X, we decided to rewrite the core engine for easier cross-platform development. Hopefully this new core engine will facilitate the addition of iOS and Android support as well as make the Windows version perform better. Unfortunately this has delayed the release of the Mac version.
  
 I was showing an OSX version at the SoCal Head-Fi meet running on a Macbook Pro. But it was not a final release version. 
  
 If you contact me via my website, I can put you on a notification list. Otherwise, you can just keep an eye on this thread and I can let you know when the Mac version is available. (I am not sure I am allowed to announce the OS X version here though as a MOT.)


----------



## SoundArtillery

My dealer recommended OOYH to me after I recently purchased a pair of Audeze LCD-3s from him.  My setup consists of three amps a Burson Soloist, ALO "The PanAm" and ASUS Xonar STX.  I have a Wyred4Sound DSD-SE performing DAC duties generally, but I also sometimes use the onboard DACs of the ALO or Xonar for different comparisons.  My other phones include AKG k701 and Sennheiser HD800.  The latter two phones are well-broken in, the LCD-3 had about 135 hours on it at the time of this review.  
  
 To be clear, I had heard of  OOYH in the past, but just never got around to using it.  Truth be told, I was happy with my JRiver Crossfeed function to add a little dimension and spatialization to my music.  OOYH obviously adds way more 3D depth and actual location ques as if you were listening to actual speakers.  That said, I have cycled through all the speaker presets and cannot find a preset I care for.  Each one seems to significantly change, delete, amplify or squash instruments in the music.  This criticism is not of a subtle effect either and is hilarious since speakers made by Magico or Acoustic Zen are generally full spectrum and quite neutral.  If OOYH truly does mimic the systems of people with so-called High End rooms, then those owners need to do some serious re-tweaking.  
  
 Aside from changing the general character of the music, the sound quality of OOYH is tinny and clearly manipulated.  Perhaps the greatest test is the fatigue that quickly sets in when listening to OOYH.  It simply does not sound right or natural.
  
 Now, before anyone jumps on the small opinions above, please know I am a now a major advocate of taking the sound out of your head after listening to OOYH.  The problem for OOYH is that it caused me to Google Binaural Processing, 3D Headphones and other search queries in Google.  The results I discovered were more than I expected.  Wiping the slew of "soundstage expander" processors aside, I found TB Isone, Dolby Headphone X, Dolby Headphone and Redline Monitor - 112b.  Redline Monitor was very subtle and lacked the "holy crap! wow!" out of your head experience of OOYH.  Dolby Headphone X has yet to be released for PC Soundcards or other major products, but user testing seems very promising.  Dolby Headphone is an Excellent product for movies and games, but not music based on my experience with Xonar's implementation of Dolby Headphone using Asus standard drivers and the UniXonar drivers.  Dolby Headphone suffers from the same weaknesses as OOYH, but despite being an older product actually sounds way more natural in surround than OOYH.  There is an echoing effect that can be reduced with the right settings, but the overal listening fatigue is far less with music compared to OOYH.  
  
 Now, TB Isone is simply stunning.  It processes 24/192 and lower formats with ease.  It sounds natural and presents with no fatigue at all.  It is the first software product in a long time that has made me want to keep listening and re-listening to my music to hear how it will sound outside my head . . . and outside my head it sounds!  TB Isone is by far the best product I have ever heard for creating a natural musical sonic scape.  In some respect the instruments are better placed and more holographic compared to my actual stereo system.  The presets are great.  I like the Omnidirectional Program with the Hi-Fi Speaker setting, but tweaking TB Isone to your own ear is the best way to truly enjoy this program.  I can't recommend this program enough.
  
 That said, there is a downside, TB Isone is a VST plugin so it doesn't process all the sound from your computer.  The virtual sound card ability of OOYH is amazing and is something I am familiar with based on my previous experience with my 2-channel system and DIRAC room correction.  I love being able to play MOG through DIRAC and to my speakers.  I wish I could combine the superior sound quality of TB Isone and the virtual soundcard ability of OOYH.  That would be a perfect product.        
  
 UPDATE:  OOYH IS AWESOME!  User error is a bitch.  Sorry I ever doubted you Darin.  Keep kicking ass!
 Quote:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> So how's this for a turn of events . . . Darin got me thinking and I poured over the processes running on my computer.  Turns out I had drivers for an audio editing program with reverb running in the background.  For whatever reason this affected OOYH but not TB Isone.  With that program disable and uninstalled, OOYH is running beautifully.  I still think TB Isone may sound a little more natural but that characteristic is far outweighed by the uncanny stage OOYH injects into my listening space.  The surround effect is way more believable and dramatic that TBIsone.  I purchased OOYH and the Genelec Speaker Preset.  I couldn't be happier right now.  I listened until 2 am last night.  There were several times when I was just all out jammin hard and I thought "****, I better turn this down or the wife will be pissed . . . "  I was hard trying to convince myself that I was the only one who could hear the sound swirling about me.
> 
> ...


----------



## darinf

soundartillery said:


> My dealer recommended OOYH to me after I recently purchased a pair of Audeze LCD-3s from him.  My setup consists of three amps a Burson Soloist, ALO "The PanAm" and ASUS Xonar STX.  I have a Wyred4Sound DSD-SE performing DAC duties generally, but I also sometimes use the onboard DACs of the ALO or Xonar for different comparisons.  My other phones include AKG k701 and Sennheiser HD800.  The latter two phones are well-broken in, the LCD-3 had about 135 hours on it at the time of this review.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Click to see the whole quote
> ...


 
 Thanks for the trying Out Of Your Head and for posting the review.
  
 I wanted to respond since there seems to be something that is not working properly on your system (not your fault). The sound output from Out Of Your Head does not normally sound as you describe. 
  
 I have had one other person who tried Out Of Your Head and had similar comments about the sound not being right. Interestingly enough, he also came to the SoCal Head-Fi meet recently and listened to my demo systems. After listening to my systems, he said to me that they sounded MUCH better than his system at home. He said if his system at home sounded like my systems at the meet, then he would definitely buy Out Of Your Head. We actually exchanged e-mails to try to figure out what could be different about his system, but ultimately it was hard for me to figure out what could be wrong without being able to see or access his system in person.
  
 So, my suspicion is that there is some setting or driver or other software in Windows that may be affecting the output of Out Of Your Head. Yes, if you can get good sound out of other software on your system, then in theory the sound you're getting from Out Of Your Head should be right too. But because Out Of Your Head is installed as a virtual sound card and most other audio software is not, there could be some interactions with Windows that does not affect the other software.
  
 I do always try to have users make sure that any effects or other settings are all disabled before running Out Of Your Head. I know this is obvious, but many systems can bypass all the Windows drivers by using ASIO and not be affected by any other audio software or drivers that are installed with sound cards, gaming software, etc. (I know, we really need to do an ASIO driver. We are working on that.) But I have noticed that many computers come with pre-installed audio "enhancement" software. Other software such as games, DVD playback software, etc. sometimes also install audio enhancement software. Even the ASUS Xonar STX lists the following software that is installed with the drivers:


> Dolby® Technologies : Dolby® Digital Live/Dolby® Headphone /Dolby® Virtual Speaker /Dolby® Pro-Logic II
> Karaoke Functions
> FlexBass™
> GX 2.5 Game Audio Engine
> VocalFX™


 
 I am not saying that you didn't already disable all of that, but if you are using say ASIO from your media player to your DAC, then you would not hear the effects of the other software. But with Out Of Your Head you would hear those effects if they were turned on. (I know, we need to do an ASIO driver...) Just something to check, which I assume you already have.
  
 I have installed Out Of Your Head on a LOT of different Windows systems with a large variety of DACs and amps and headphones that vary widely in price and performance. But they all have full range sound which mimic the sound of the speakers and the rooms that were measured. If there frequency response is way off or not full spectrum, then something is probably wrong.
  
 One test I do is to ask people to listen to the pre-rendered mp3's and movie clips on my website. This way they can compare what the output should sound like even though you can only listen to the music and movies that I have chosen to record and post. However, if somehow the pre-rendered samples sound different in terms of frequency response, then clearly something is wrong. The actual output from Out Of Your Head should sound the same as the sound in the pre-rendered demos.
  
 Of course I am not saying that you or anyone is at fault. It's my fault since it's my software that is not working. But I invite you to contact me if you want to try to figure out where the problem might be. I would greatly appreciate it so I can fix this problem in the future to make sure people have an accurate trial of Out Of Your Head.
  
 Another point to address is that Out Of Your Head works for up to 7.1 channel surround sound. I know many of you do not watch movies and only listen to music on headphones, but for many, this is a clear difference with products like TB Isone. I think many people never watch movies with headphones since you can't hear all 5.1 or 7.1 channels normally. But with Out Of Your Head you can. I think for head-philes, many people like the sound of headphones and prefer to do critical music listening without any effects to get a pure sound. But still will enjoy Out Of Your Head for watching movies. 
  
 Thanks again for taking the time to try Out Of Your Head and posting your review.


----------



## SoundArtillery

Hey Darin,
  
 I really want this program to work precisely for the Movies!  I built a headphone home theater with a 120 screen, Epson HD Projector and buttkickers in the seating for bass.  With young kids it makes less and less sense to have a big system that can never be cranked when free time finally opens up at night.  The majority of the testing was done via the W4S DAC2-DSDse, which was selected on OOYH.  JRiver provided the playback and was setup to use OOYH via WASAPI.  I think this setup config would completely bypass the gaming side of the Xonar, right?  I will reinstall and give all this another test to be completely certain.
  
 Thanks,
  
 Mike


----------



## kalston

> Originally Posted by *SoundArtillery* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Now, TB Isone is simply stunning.  It processes 24/192 and lower formats with ease.  It sounds natural and presents with no fatigue at all.  It is the first software product in a long time that has made me want to keep listening and re-listening to my music to hear how it will sound outside my head . . . and outside my head it sounds!  TB Isone is by far the best product I have ever heard for creating a natural musical sonic scape.  In some respect the instruments are better placed and more holographic compared to my actual stereo system.  The presets are great.  I like the Omnidirectional Program with the Hi-Fi Speaker setting, but tweaking TB Isone to your own ear is the best way to truly enjoy this program.  I can't recommend this program enough.
> 
> That said, there is a downside, TB Isone is a VST plugin so it doesn't process all the sound from your computer.  The virtual sound card ability of OOYH is amazing and is something I am familiar with based on my previous experience with my 2-channel system and DIRAC room correction.  I love being able to play MOG through DIRAC and to my speakers.  I wish I could combine the superior sound quality of TB Isone and the virtual soundcard ability of OOYH.  That would be a perfect product.


 
 I wholeheartedely agree with this part. I have actually managed to get Isone to work like OOYH with a virtual soundcard setup and a DSP host (100% free solution), but it took a lot of work before I managed to get it working nicely (stutter/pop free with low enough latency so that I can use it for games - if latency is no concern I can easily get flawless playback but then again when not gaming I'm using JRiver with ASIO so it doesn't matter)
  
 Unfortunately I have not managed to do with this with surround sound (never managed to get a virtual soundcard outputting more than 2 channels so that I could then process them). So basically never managed to truly replicate what OOYH/Razer Surround does.
  
 That's why I'm still interested in OOYH (although I really don't feel that I need it for music/video playback but I will probably still buy it if an ASIO version is released). However the current version has too much latency for gaming. Darin mentioned an upcoming gaming version which I am eagerly waiting for but I am not too sure when we can expect that.
 I used Razer Surround for some time but I ditched it for the same reason I had to ditch OOYH : latency (although it was much lower and many people might not notice, it was still too much for me and distracting, and I can't even begin to imagine if I had a more responsive monitor to pair it with..)
  
 However I do not have the problems you have with OOYH - it sounds stellar on my setup. I prefer Isone (and Isone Surround) but that's just me and I still wouldn't put OOYH far behind or criticize its sound quality.


----------



## SoundArtillery

Hey Guys,
  
 So how's this for a turn of events . . . Darin got me thinking and I poured over the processes running on my computer.  Turns out I had drivers for an audio editing program with reverb running in the background.  For whatever reason this affected OOYH but not TB Isone.  With that program disable and uninstalled, OOYH is running beautifully.  I still think TB Isone may sound a little more natural but that characteristic is far outweighed by the uncanny stage OOYH injects into my listening space.  The surround effect is way more believable and dramatic that TBIsone.  I purchased OOYH and the Genelec Speaker Preset.  I couldn't be happier right now.  I listened until 2 am last night.  There were several times when I was just all out jammin hard and I thought "****, I better turn this down or the wife will be pissed . . . "  I was hard trying to convince myself that I was the only one who could hear the sound swirling about me.
  
 Thanks for the excellent product and the even better service.
  
 Mike


----------



## SoundArtillery

Ok I've been listening to OOYH all day and my wife is about to divorce me.  I'm convinced, once you find the right preset . . . it's better sounding and more engaging than TB Isone.  OOYH is king.
  
 Mike


----------



## Argo Duck

Well this is all good to hear (except for the divorce part, but some things are just more important ).

Looking forward to Mac version


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## a-widodo

I'd like to try the software but I have 32 bit Windows 7 instead of 64 bit. Is it possible to run the software with 32 bit windows?


----------



## darinf

a-widodo said:


> I'd like to try the software but I have 32 bit Windows 7 instead of 64 bit. Is it possible to run the software with 32 bit windows?


 
 We currently don't have a Windows 32-bit version. I may be able to compile a 32-bit version and test it. We have had very few requests (I think two) for a 32-bit version and early on we had problems with 32-bit Windows. I can revisit the issue and see if it's not too much work to do.


----------



## a-widodo

Thanks, I'm looking forward to try it. I have heard the demo and I like the effect.


----------



## ssrock64

I looked through the last couple of pages in the thread, and couldn't find any information on the problem I'm having downloading. Every time I go to the free trial link, it takes me to my cart, but the cart is empty. Has anybody else had an inexplicably empty checkout happen to them?


----------



## Argo Duck

^ is the vendor unresponsive?


----------



## TIMITS

ssrock64 said:


> I looked through the last couple of pages in the thread, and couldn't find any information on the problem I'm having downloading. Every time I go to the free trial link, it takes me to my cart, but the cart is empty. Has anybody else had an inexplicably empty checkout happen to them?


 
  
 Just tried it and it is working fine for me with a Safari browser on an iMac.  After filling in the form for name and email there was a confirmation page with the following message displayed: "You will receive and e-mail with a link to download the trial. If you do not receive the e-mail within the next 30 minutes, please check your SPAM filter."  Checked my Hotmail account and there was an email response in the Junk folder.


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## ssrock64

I didn't even get to a page where I could fill in a form. At the link to the trial, all I get is an empty cart message. I've tried it on Firefox and Chrome on my regular laptop, but haven't tried anything on my MacBook yet.


----------



## darinf

ssrock64 said:


> I didn't even get to a page where I could fill in a form. At the link to the trial, all I get is an empty cart message. I've tried it on Firefox and Chrome on my regular laptop, but haven't tried anything on my MacBook yet.


 
 I just tried it on Chrome, Firefox, and IE 10 on Windows 7 and Safari on OS X (even though there is no OS X version yet...). Each time, I clicked on the "Checkout" button on this page: https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/ and got to the checkout page where you can fill in your information.
  
  I know others have been able to download since I get notices when people successfully "checkout" with the free trial version.
  
 Maybe there's an issue with cookies and security settings? Please PM me or e-mail me to troubleshoot further.
  
 -Darin


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## ssrock64

I have cookies completely disabled in one of my browsers, so that probably accounted for it. I'll try it again with modified settings. Thanks for the response.


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## cjl

This looked interesting to me, so I downloaded and installed the trial today, and I'm getting an enormous amount of clipping nearly continuously when I'm playing anything, unless I lower the output by >20dB (usually more like 30dB). I'd like to evaluate it fairly, but it's hard to do when it feels like I'm about to blow out my eardrums and headphones every time I switch presets to one that I haven't remembered to suppress the levels on yet...
  
 (For what it's worth, I also find the DRM and personal info requirements a bit intrusive - especially the requirement for an email address and name for the demo download. Why not just provide a link on the website for the demo, and require the personal info when the product is purchased?)
  
 EDIT: I found part of the problem - Flash seems to think it's a good idea to upmix stereo sound (from places like Youtube, Pandora, etc) to 5.1/7.1 and output near full levels on all channels, even if the original source is stereo (resulting in massive clipping when fed through OOYH and awful sound, including a complete lack of stereo image and weird reverb even after lowering the levels to a reasonable level). After fiddling around with some dlls, flash is now working properly, and clipping is greatly reduced (though still present on a true surround source). The soundstage is much better too, and a lot of the weird sound is gone.


----------



## darinf

cjl said:


> This looked interesting to me, so I downloaded and installed the trial today, and I'm getting an enormous amount of clipping nearly continuously when I'm playing anything, unless I lower the output by >20dB (usually more like 30dB). I'd like to evaluate it fairly, but it's hard to do when it feels like I'm about to blow out my eardrums and headphones every time I switch presets to one that I haven't remembered to suppress the levels on yet...


 
 That definitely doesn't sound right. What media player are you using? What content are you playing (movies or music)? Does the clipping happen on all presets or just some? Which presets? 
  
 Also, which DAC or amp are you using? 
  
 Sorry about all the questions, but the answers are all relevant to troubleshooting your problems. Of course, feel free to contact me directly via my website of via PM here to troubleshoot the problems.
  
 As I mentioned before, I used to have the default levels set lower to avoid clipping during loud passages of a 7.1 surround action movie or something like that. 8 channels of loud audio can definitely add up when processing that down to 2 channels. But when I set the levels that low, people complainde that for 2 channel music, the levels were too low, so I raised them up knowing that clipping may occur more quickly.
  
 However, constant clipping should not be happening. I regularly watch action movies leaving the levels at default in Out Of Your Head and lowering the *internal *volume level in JRiver Media Center 19 to about 80% (20% down from 100%). With those levels, I will get clipping on only the very loudest explosions, etc on a 7.1 movie.
  
 You may also not be hearing clipping, but some other artifact due to some other kind of incompatibility with your DAC or some other audio software on your system.
  
 Please contact me so I can help figure it out for you.
  
 -Darin


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## cjl

This was listening primarily to Pandora at work with my ODAC/O2 combo. As I mentioned above, I think the problem was related to the fact that Flash idiotically upmixes stereo to 7.1 if it detects surround capability in a system, and sets the levels on all channels near 100% (which was causing the really unpleasant clipping, as well as a mediocre sound even after the levels were reduced). I've fixed that problem for the moment, so now it is playing in stereo rather than the badly upmixed surround, but I'll definitely let you know if I have any further difficulty.


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## cjl

OK, after listening for another 15 minutes after lunch here with the flash bug fixed, that was definitely the issue. It sounded unnatural and muddy before, even with the clipping fixed, and that seems to have been entirely due to the combination of the simulated surround with Adobe's terrible upmixing. Now it sounds excellent (though I'll have to listen for quite a while longer to decide if I want to buy it or not). For anyone using this though: be careful with Flash-based sound sources (YouTube if you aren't running HTML5, Pandora, and that kind of thing)


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## SoundArtillery

FYI, weird issue . . . if I run Beats Music through the latest IE in fullscreen touch mode on windows 8, the system clips no matter the volume.  Out of touch mode, no issues at all.  Beautiful sound.


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## darinf

soundartillery said:


> FYI, weird issue . . . if I run Beats Music through the latest IE in fullscreen touch mode on windows 8, the system clips no matter the volume.  Out of touch mode, no issues at all.  Beautiful sound.


 
 I can't figure out how to get BeatsMusic to play on my Windows 8.1 machine. Even after logging into their website, it just wants me to install their app on a mobile device. It won't let me play in a browser, not even IE in Windows 8 metro full screen mode. When I click on "web player", it just takes me to the mobile app download page.


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## kh600rr

Wow, didn't know you had a page here Darin, I tried out your program at the show on Sunday. I'll be sure to keep up here.


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## darinf

kh600rr said:


> Wow, didn't know you had a page here Darin, I tried out your program at the show on Sunday. I'll be sure to keep up here.


 
 Thanks for stopping by our booth at THE Show Newport!
  
 Yes, this thread has been here since the release of Out Of Your Head, so if you have any impressions or questions, you can post them here. I follow this thread, obviously.
  
 Did you see Tyll Hertsens post about Out Of Your Head on InnerFidelity.com? He stopped by my booth on Saturday at THE Show. (Not sure if I am allowed to link directly to the post on Tyll's website.)


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## kh600rr

No, haven't checked out the innerfidelity post yet. I've been kinda busy, and haven't spent much time with your fabulous program yet. But what I heard at the show was great. I downloaded it to my win 8.1 with no issues.


----------



## Brooko

darinf said:


> Did you see Tyll Hertsens post about Out Of Your Head on InnerFidelity.com? He stopped by my booth on Saturday at THE Show. (Not sure if I am allowed to link directly to the post on Tyll's website.)



Not sure on TOS for you Darin - but pretty sure we can. Here's the link to Tyll's article for anyone interested:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/show-newport-2014-darin-fong-audio-out-your-head-virtual-audio-software


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## Digitalchkn

Maybe this is more of a question for Darin. Windows (7) apparently has a funny way of not making it very clear the currently set sampling rate and I suppose just likes to sample rate convert things when there's a mismatch. My guess is that that OOYH does not use, say, WASAPI mode so does that mean that I need to set the Windows sounds setting to match the sampling rate of my source in order to avoid Windows resampling?


----------



## darinf

Hi @Digitalchkn, Thanks for posting your question.
  
 Due to CPU processing requirements for 8 channels of audio, we decided to do all the processing at 48kHz/32 bit sampling rate. We can do up to 192k, but the processing power required is significant especially with 8 channels.
  
 So, even though you can send higher bit rate audio to Out Of Your Head, the audio is sampled down to 48k when using Windows Direct Sound.
  
 You can use WASAPI, but then you have to have your media player resample the audio to 48kHz/32bit.
  
 The thing is, because Out Of Your Head is applying significant DSP to the audio, "bit-perfect" is really not possible since the processed audio is SO different from the original audio signal anyway.
  
 I will not get into a debate about the pros and cons of high rez audio, but with the current processing engine in Out Of Your Head, it doesn't really matter since Out Of Your Head does not currently support high rez audio.
  
 Let me know if you have any other questions,
  
 -Darin


----------



## Crman

Darin, I have a question. I read that Atmos technology is being released to home cinemas. Is it possible that in the near future you can make a preset with the full 32 speakers? That would be awesome, cause I think a lot of people would like to enjoy that but can't afford it, or don't have space for them. And this way we could really have a 3D audio experience, instead of the 2D we have now.


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> Darin, I have a question. I read that Atmos technology is being released to home cinemas. Is it possible that in the near future you can make a preset with the full 32 speakers? That would be awesome, cause I think a lot of people would like to enjoy that but can't afford it, or don't have space for them. And this way we could really have a 3D audio experience, instead of the 2D we have now.


 
 Hi Crman,
  
 Yes, there seems to be a lot of press lately about Dolby Atmos for the home. I am still reading up on it, but from my understanding, Atmos for home will not use anything close to 32 speakers. I can't imagine many home theaters being retrofitted or built with 32 speakers. I suppose someone will.
  
 It's my understanding that Atmos for home will support up to 11.2 channels. 
  
 With Out Of Your Head, in theory, I can support as many channels as I want assuming the host computer has enough computing power. But on fast systems, 11 channels should not be a problem since I am doing 8 now. (The .2 of LFE isn't really that critical to have as a localized sound source.)
  
 So, when the time comes where content and decoding software is capable of delivering decoded 11.2 channel Dolby Atmos, I hope to be able to support that. The trickiest part is finding an actual speaker system with the proper 11.2 speakers that I can measure. Worst case I could try using one speaker and repositioning that speaker at each of the positions as specified in the Atmos guidelines.
  
 But of course, it would be huge to be able to just put on your headphones and run Out Of Your Head to get a full Dolby Atmos experience. I think if nothing else, it would give people the opportunity to hear Dolby Atmos before they went ahead and built an actual Atmos home theater system.
  
 The truth is that most people still have 5.1 home theater systems even though 7.1 has been available for a while. Even the content is slow to incorporate even Dolby HD or DTS-MA 7.1 audio. So I think it will be a while before we see a lot of content available in Dolby Atmos for the home. Yes, there will be the first few movie releases that support it, but until there is enough content, I don't think there will be a lot of demand for Atmos capable hardware.
  
 Hopefully Out Of Your Head will be one of the first ways most people can actually hear the Atmos enabled content.
  
 As a side note, I did have one person who I was giving a demo of Out Of Your Head to and he exclaimed, "Wow! It's like Dolby Atmos in my headphones!"


----------



## Crman

Thanks for the answer Darin
  
 I read somewhere about a 32 speaker configuration, but maybe I misunderstood it.
 Another thing I read was that the Atmos software could transform 5.1 or 7.1 sound to Atmos technology, to have a 3D surround experience, so we could enjoy the 3D sound experience with any movie. 
 Even though I think 32 speakers is insane, a 9:2:4 configuration would be great. 
 But, we can't really use the surround experience of Atmos with Out Of Your Head until there's a PC player that accepts Atmos technology, right?
 Just of curiosity, which preset were you using when that person said that?
  
 IMO, your idea of Out Of Your Head being the first experience of Atmos sound technology can be truth in many cases. In some countries here in Europe is very difficult to find that technology in theaters outside the big cities, and having it in your home would be really an awesome experience.


----------



## AgentXXL

Hi Darin,
  
 Any word on the release of a Mac OS X version of OOYH? I've come to the realization that I rarely use my Windows system anymore - particularly only when I want to watch a movie or listen to some music with OOYH. It would definitely be nice to have the Mac version.
  
 Dale


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> But, we can't really use the surround experience of Atmos with Out Of Your Head until there's a PC player that accepts Atmos technology, right?
> Just of curiosity, which preset were you using when that person said that?
> 
> IMO, your idea of Out Of Your Head being the first experience of Atmos sound technology can be truth in many cases. In some countries here in Europe is very difficult to find that technology in theaters outside the big cities, and having it in your home would be really an awesome experience.


 
 Yes, until there is software available that supports decoding Atmos encoded content, there's no point in having Out Of Your Head support it if it doesn't exist. But certainly if there's going to be a way to apply Atmos processing to existing 7.1 systems, that would be a good interim step until people start setting up additional height/ceiling speakers. It's going to take time before we really see much available with Atmos encoded content and Atmos compatible decoders.
  
 I generally use the Acoustic Zen preset for most of my demos. So that's what he was listening too when he said that.
  
 One large target market Out Of Your Head is for those people who do not have the space or money or desire to set up an actual 2.0, 5.1, or 7.1 speaker system in their home or office. So even with current surround content, Out Of Your Head gives people the opportunity to hear multi-channel music and movies. If you've ever wondered about 5.1 music, it's a great way to listen to it with your existing gear.


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> Any word on the release of a Mac OS X version of OOYH? I've come to the realization that I rarely use my Windows system anymore - particularly only when I want to watch a movie or listen to some music with OOYH. It would definitely be nice to have the Mac version.
> 
> Dale


 
 Hi Dale,
  
 The Mac version is WAY overdue. I apologize for that. In addition to rewriting the core processing engine from scratch, we also recently had some unexpected problems with one of our contractors. As you can imagine, getting another person up to speed on everything has been slow.
  
 At this point, we have a working prototype that we have been showing at the last few Head-Fi and hi-fi shows. But making that into a release version has proved to be more challenging than expected.
  
 Although I can't announce it here when the Mac version is released, you can sign up to be notified when it is released.


----------



## Crman

darinf said:


> But certainly if there's going to be a way to apply Atmos processing to existing 7.1 systems, that would be a good interim step until people start setting up additional height/ceiling speakers.


 
  
 I wanted to say it the other way around, the 5.1 and 7.1 can be transformed by Atmos compatible systems to Atmos audio with the 9 speakers and 3D audio, so you could enjoy the movies you already have home with all the Atmos speakers. Sorry if I explained it wrong, English is not my first language.
 I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but I imagine that you have tried OOYH with a lot of headphones, and I know it works with any pair of headphones, but I would like to know if you have any favorite? A pair of headphones that you can say "ok, it can't be better than this".


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> I wanted to say it the other way around, the 5.1 and 7.1 can be transformed by Atmos compatible systems to Atmos audio with the 9 speakers and 3D audio, so you could enjoy the movies you already have home with all the Atmos speakers. Sorry if I explained it wrong, English is not my first language.
> I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but I imagine that you have tried OOYH with a lot of headphones, and I know it works with any pair of headphones, but I would like to know if you have any favorite? A pair of headphones that you can say "ok, it can't be better than this".


 
 I see. Yes, in theory they could "upscale" the existing 5.1 or 7.1 content to use the additional speakers, but you still don't have object based positional data in any existing content. An algorithm could guess at the position of sound source, but no actual data is embedded in the source material. There already are processors that will upscale 7.1 to 9.2 or 11.2, but I am not sure how well that works. I have never heard it.
  
 For headphones, in general, if you like the way your headphones sound now, they should work well with Out Of Your Head. But, because Out Of Your Head relies on subtle microdetails and accuracy to reproduce the sound of the measured room and speakers, I think that headphones that are "fast" and have a lot of detail tend to work best. For example, if you have a darker sounding headphone, then it's not going to reproduce the sound of a bright speaker or room. But if you like a darker sound, then you aren't likely to like a bright sounding speaker or room anyway. The Out Of Your Head effect works with just about any headphones.
  
 My preference in headphones is with electrostatic headphones, so that also works well with Out Of Your Head since there's a lot of detail and speed. But the bass tends to have less impact with electrostats. I use a subwoofer with my headphones and Out Of Your Head to give me that visceral bass impact when watching movies at home. Sometimes for action movies I will listen to magnetic planar headphones or CIEM's with good bass and lots of detail.


----------



## kh600rr

What's your favorite one for watching movies?


----------



## darinf

kh600rr said:


> What's your favorite one for watching movies?


 
 For movies I like the Magico preset since it has more bass. Some people like the more damped rooms for movies to minimize the room interactions. The recording studio presets like AIX and MiCasa are in very damped/dead rooms.


----------



## Crman

OOYH combined with something like Crowson Tactile Motion Acuators seems an interesting combination to increase the sense of reality.


----------



## Amish

Am I the only one not impressed at all with this software? I tried it. It runs fine but I don't get the feeling of being in a room with any of these speaker systems. I've listened to many sound systems over the years and this sounds fake to me. which it is I guess but still.


----------



## darinf

amish said:


> Am I the only one not impressed at all with this software? I tried it. It runs fine but I don't get the feeling of being in a room with any of these speaker systems. I've listened to many sound systems over the years and this sounds fake to me. which it is I guess but still.


 
 Hi Amish,
  
 Thanks for your feedback.
  
 Some people do have a similar reaction when they first try Out Of Your Head. Although it's possible it just doesn't work well with your ear shape or HRTF, I do have some tips for people the first time they listen to Out Of Your Head. When your brain isn't sure what you're hearing, it can just sound like strange EQ and reverb. But please read and try the tips below to see if it helps:
  


> The first time you hear Out Of Your Head, it may not sound right. It's not the software, it's your brain!
> 
> The problem is that your brain doesn't know what it's hearing. Generally if you are sitting at your laptop or desktop computer, the sound will sound like it's coming from behind a wall or out in the middle of the room, etc. Since your eyes don't see anything that the sound could be coming from, your brain gets confused.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Amish

I actually have speakers in front of me when sitting at my desk but I still don't get the feeling that I'm in a room with all these speakers. Maybe you are right and it is something with my ears. I couldn't say. Enough people seem to be impressed with this so it must be me.


----------



## darinf

amish said:


> I actually have speakers in front of me when sitting at my desk but I still don't get the feeling that I'm in a room with all these speakers. Maybe you are right and it is something with my ears. I couldn't say. Enough people seem to be impressed with this so it must be me.


 
 Hi Amish,
  
 Yes, it's quite possible your ear shape is just too different from the ears of the people I used for the measurements. Have you gone through all the presets? Many of them were done with different people's ears, so for the localization of the sound source, you may find some presets might work better than others.
  
 I always knew that Out Of Your Head would not work well for a small percentage of people, so that is why I have the free trial available to make sure it works for your ears.
  
 Also, since you are in Southern CA, I do offer a service where I can use your ears to do the measurements. This will ensure the most accurate measurement that is custom for your ears. I can come to your home to measure your speakers with your ears, or there are a number of high end rooms I have available for measurements. I have yet to find anyone for which the custom measurement did not work. I have people from all over the country and the world come to me to do their measurements. Even if the existing Out Of Your Head presets work for them, getting custom measurements gives them more accuracy.
  
 Thanks for your feedback, regardless.
  
 -Darin


----------



## AgentXXL

darinf said:


> Also, since you are in Southern CA, I do offer a service where I can use your ears to do the measurements. This will ensure the most accurate measurement that is custom for your ears. I can come to your home to measure your speakers with your ears, or there are a number of high end rooms I have available for measurements. I have yet to find anyone for which the custom measurement did not work. I have people from all over the country and the world come to me to do their measurements. Even if the existing Out Of Your Head presets work for them, getting custom measurements gives them more accuracy.
> 
> -Darin


 
  
 Good reminder... I'll definitely have to remember to add this to my schedule the next time I'm in Southern CA. Is there any advantage to having the measurements done in a couple of rooms, or is one enough?
  
 Dale


----------



## Amish

darinf said:


> Hi Amish,
> 
> Yes, it's quite possible your ear shape is just too different from the ears of the people I used for the measurements. Have you gone through all the presets? Many of them were done with different people's ears, so for the localization of the sound source, you may find some presets might work better than others.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I did try all of the presets and some did sound better than other. maybe 3 of them sounded much better than the rest but still didn't make me feel like I was in a room with another set of speakers.
  
 Thanks for the offer and I will consider it. I'll PM you if I decide to take you up on your offer.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## darinf

agentxxl said:


> Good reminder... I'll definitely have to remember to add this to my schedule the next time I'm in Southern CA. Is there any advantage to having the measurements done in a couple of rooms, or is one enough?
> 
> Dale


 
 Hi Dale,
 If you are planning on coming here to have me do measurements, most people do end up getting more than one room measurement done just for variety. It seems the further people come, the more rooms they get done. But it really depends on what you're after in terms of sound and types of music, etc.
  
 If you are coming to Southern California, PM me and I can give you all the details.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Crman

Darin, you should come in vacations to Europe. It's beautiful here, and you could take the opportunity and bring the equipment to do the measurements for me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Just kidding. Though, the part of Europe being beautiful is true.


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> Darin, you should come in vacations to Europe. It's beautiful here, and you could take the opportunity and bring the equipment to do the measurements for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, that would be great. I have been to Europe several times including my honeymoon. I wish I could finance a "European Tour" doing measurements everywhere. Somehow I don't think anyone would be wiling to pay enough to make it worth while unless I was going there anyway.
  
 However, for anyone who owns a Smyth Realiser or knows someone who does, you can do a measurement with the Realiser and then e-mail me the measurement files. I can convert the Realiser files to work with Out Of Your Head for an additional fee.
  
 (You might even head over to the Realiser thread and figure out if there's anyone close enough to you willing to do a measurement for you.)
  
 -Darin


----------



## daiwai

I've just tried the pre-mixed demo and think they are awesome, although need a bit of time to settle down with the positioning. I'm wondering if there will be a linux version once android version comes out since android based on linux anyway?


----------



## darinf

daiwai said:


> I've just tried the pre-mixed demo and think they are awesome, although need a bit of time to settle down with the positioning. I'm wondering if there will be a linux version once android version comes out since android based on linux anyway?


 
 Glad you liked the demo files. 
  
 So far there are no plans for a Linux version. But we are definitely planning an Android version. But right now the focus is on the long awaited/delayed Mac OS X version. (I feel like Jason and the Schiit Ragnarok and Yggdrasil!)


----------



## cripple1

darinf said:


> Glad you liked the demo files.
> 
> So far there are no plans for a Linux version. But we are definitely planning an Android version. But right now the focus is on the long awaited/delayed Mac OS X version. (I feel like Jason and the Schiit Ragnarok and Yggdrasil!)


 
 I'm still waiting patiently on that Mac version. Take your time and get everything sorted out and right though. I really enjoyed the demo files and am excited to get this software for my Mac!


----------



## Brooko

Darin
  
 I know you ran an introductory special when you first introduced it.  Are there any plans to repeat a follow up offer?  I've been sitting on the fence - although I really like the concept.


----------



## darinf

brooko said:


> Darin
> 
> I know you ran an introductory special when you first introduced it.  Are there any plans to repeat a follow up offer?  I've been sitting on the fence - although I really like the concept.


 
 I can't say for sure at this point, but originally the introductory price was there on first release since no one knew about Out Of Your Head and I wanted to help get the software in people's hands. For the Mac version, the demand already seems pretty high, so I don't think I will need to have a introductory discount. (Many people pre-purchased the Mac version starting back in January!)


----------



## Brooko

OK - thanks Darin.


----------



## a-widodo

Is there any plan for 32 bit Windows?


----------



## Brooko

Darin - I see OOYH being offered on a site (which I can't link here) for up to 50% rebate.
  
 I'd prefer to deal direct with you.  Will you offer same on the forums for a limited time period?
  
 Thanks
  
 Paul


----------



## darinf

brooko said:


> Darin - I see OOYH being offered on a site (which I can't link here) for up to 50% rebate.
> 
> I'd prefer to deal direct with you.  Will you offer same on the forums for a limited time period?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Paul,
  
 As you know, the way that site works is that a minimum of 15 people have to buy it before the lowest price is unlocked, which is 50% off. As a condition of using that site, I can't really offer the same thing at the same time to compete with them. So for now I would recommend you use that site if you want a discount. You can even commit to buy only if the price reaches the lowest price. So no risk involved.
  
 In general, we don't typically discount our software. This is the first time we have done an online promotion of this kind. We do sometimes offer discounted "show specials" at trade shows or Head-Fi meets.


----------



## Brooko

Thanks Darin
  
 I've committed.  Once again though, surprised that was used rather than the community here (who are probably a more targeted audience).  We'll see what happens I guess.


----------



## alpha421

Just listened to the demo files and "WOW!"


----------



## shiftybob

The demos sound pretty awesome.  I'm surprised more people aren't buying it while it's on sale.
  
 Looking forward to when the mac version is released.


----------



## darinf

alpha421 said:


> Just listened to the demo files and "WOW!"


 
 Thanks!
  


shiftybob said:


> The demos sound pretty awesome.  I'm surprised more people aren't buying it while it's on sale.
> 
> Looking forward to when the mac version is released.


 
 I ask myself the same question all the time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The Mac version is our top priority at the moment, but no solid estimate yet on the time frame.


----------



## hoth

darinf said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I ask myself the same question all the time.
> 
> ...


 

 Of course I'm a day late. Ugh. Are there any plans to run this promotion again?  I was about to buy when the promotion ran out.


----------



## darinf

hoth said:


> Of course I'm a day late. Ugh. Are there any plans to run this promotion again?  I was about to buy when the promotion ran out.


 
 No plans to do it again any time soon. It was an experiment on since it was the first time for me and the first time for them selling software.


----------



## Brooko

Curious Darin
  
 In sales to date - what has been the most in-demand "room set-up"?  Is there a top 3?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

brooko said:


> Curious Darin
> 
> In sales to date - what has been the most in-demand "room set-up"?  Is there a top 3?




I'd be interested to see that data as well if you were willing to share


----------



## darinf

brooko said:


> Curious Darin
> 
> In sales to date - what has been the most in-demand "room set-up"?  Is there a top 3?


 
 There is no clear "winner" as far as popularity goes. I am always amazed at how evenly distributed all the purchases are.

 However, by a small margin, the top 3 are:


Acoustic Zen
Wilson Sasha
Genelec Recording Studio
 But all of the presets have sold at least a few copies.


----------



## Brooko

darinf said:


> There is no clear "winner" as far as popularity goes. I am always amazed at how evenly distributed all the purchases are.
> 
> However, by a small margin, the top 3 are:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Darin.  Understand on the Acoustic Zen - it's the one I will take when the MD licenses finally go through.  Just so I understand - I've bought a license for my home PC - if I also want to use it on my laptop, do I need to get another full license - or just buy the preset for $25 that I'm going to use with the laptop?


----------



## arnaud

I can't speak for the software as I am yet to try it (did anyone ask for the mac already ?  ). 

But I can only recommend having prirs measured with Darin's help if you're in SoCal area. We took a day to do both audio revelations (magico speaker rig) and acoustic zen. I also did AIX studio the following day but the crescendo speakers at acoustic zen sounded quite a bit better than the rest (haven't tried the B&W speakers at AIX in stereo mode however and not with my music so not a very rigorous comparison). 

Besides, Darin is really patient / thorough and friendly, I just really liked the guy and his attitude!

Cheers,
Arnaud


----------



## hoth

darinf said:


> There is no clear "winner" as far as popularity goes. I am always amazed at how evenly distributed all the purchases are.
> 
> However, by a small margin, the top 3 are:
> 
> ...



 


I can definitely see the Sasha being a best seller. That system sounds by far the best to me for critical music listening. This plugin totally captures the "out of your head" sensation like no other plugin I've used. I think I will be switching from TBIsone.


----------



## alpha421

^I concur.  I'm set with the Sasha and Focal Scala.


----------



## alpha421

I will be blunt - "The software and the Sasha setting with Floyd and Fleetwood Mac kicks major ass!  The software and the Focal Scala setting with the Matrix Trilogy and T2 kicks major ass!"
  
 In a strange way, my wallet thanks DF.


----------



## bpinnell

If anyone is local to the DC area and has a nice speaker setup (preferably in a nicely treated room with room correction), i would be happy to talk about doing a custom 7.1 PRIR for you using my Realiser in exchange for letting me do my own PRIR there. You could use your PRIR with Darin's Out of Your Head software subject to his price to make the custom preset ($149 I believe). You can also use the opportunity to test the Realiser if you have never heard it before. Doing my own custom PRIRs with AIX and Darin was fantastic and makes me want to do even more! Please PM if interested. Thanks.


----------



## MichaelJames99

I am trying the software out today.  Had a couple questions:
 I am streaming movies from Amazon and DirectTV...does not matter which browser I use (IE or Chrome).. 
  
 I am getting an audio delay.. about 1-2 seconds maybe... voice sync is definately off..how do I fix this?
 When I switch to Realtek high definition, all is correct... no sync issues.. so its something to do with this software.
  
 Will it take a stereo movie and virtualize to 7.1?


----------



## Brooko

michaeljames99 said:


> I am trying the software out today.  Had a couple questions:
> I am streaming movies from Amazon and DirectTV...does not matter which browser I use (IE or Chrome)..
> 
> I am getting an audio delay.. about 1-2 seconds maybe... voice sync is definately off..how do I fix this?
> When I switch to Realtek high definition, all is correct... no sync issues.. so its something to do with this software.


 
  
 Yes there is lag - the software has processing time.  For DVD movies - use VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html), and once playing you can resync audio with video by going to:
 Tools > Track Synchronisation.
 Adjust until it matches.  It works really well.
  
 To stream - VLC should also work.  Use your browser to go to the address you want to stream.  Copy the address.  In VLC, go:
 Media > Open Location From Clipboard
 Then simply adjust the track synchronisation again.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 Just to add a quick note. VLC is great for many things, and it used to be one of my goto players. The only problem is that it doesn't use standard channel mapping for whatever reason. So it works wonderfully for 2.0, or 5.1, 7.1 mixed down to 2.0 stereo.
  
 But, if you want to take full advantage of OOYH 5.1 or 7.1, you have to use a player that sends the right signal to the right channel in OOYH. Darin turned me on to XBMC (http://xbmc.org). It has its idiosyncrasies, but it's pretty impressive and it's free. You really want to go this route to see what OOYH can do. In some ways, it's like nothing you've ever quite experienced before. The spaciousness of a real world surround-sound speaker array with the sense of immersion that comes from headphones. So part of the brilliance of OOYH is the pragmatics of privacy and cost but it's also something of a new hybrid sound delivery system standing between speakers and headphones.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Best way to go is to use MPC-HC or MPC-BE with LAV filters  I'd recommend madVR as well for maximum video quality. It's not as "download and good to go" as VLC though, and doesn't do the Internet stream thing quite as well.


----------



## MichaelJames99

I'm confused with XBMC... where do you go to resync audio with video?  Do you have to change the sync every time I stream a movie from the internet browser?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> I am trying the software out today.  Had a couple questions:
> I am streaming movies from Amazon and DirectTV...does not matter which browser I use (IE or Chrome)..
> 
> I am getting an audio delay.. about 1-2 seconds maybe... voice sync is definately off..how do I fix this?
> ...


 
 Sorry for the delayed response, I spent the day "collecting" a new measurement. It will appear soon as a new speaker preset in both the PC and Mac version of Out Of Your Head. Small hint...I was in Hollywood.
  
 To answer your questions:
  
 I don't think you can stream Amazon videos in VLC since Amazon video has DRM. I am not sure about DirecTV, but I think it's the same problem. The only streaming service that I know of that has audio sync adjustment in their player is Netflix. In Netflix you can adjust the sync. You can access a hidden menu by pressing Shift+Alt+Left Click (Shift+Option+Click on a Mac)
  
 Out Of Your Head on Windows does currently have a delay of about 450ms on most Windows machines. I know this is really long, but we are working on a new version with much less delay which will be suitable for gaming too.
  
 Out Of Your Head will not "up convert" to more channels of audio. Out Of Your Head simply processes the number of channels being fed to it. So 2 channel music gets played on two virtual speakers in Out Of Your Head. However, JRiver Media Center will upconvert to up to 7.1 channels from lower number of channels. If you have JRiver upconvert, then Out Of Your Head will process the upconverted audio.
  


brooko said:


> Yes there is lag - the software has processing time.  For DVD movies - use VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html), and once playing you can resync audio with video by going to:
> Tools > Track Synchronisation.
> Adjust until it matches.  It works really well.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for answering Brooko. VLC works great on Windows with Out Of Your Head. But I don't think you can stream DRM'ed streams. I wish you could since the audio sync adjustment works great.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just to add a quick note. VLC is great for many things, and it used to be one of my goto players. The only problem is that it doesn't use standard channel mapping for whatever reason. So it works wonderfully for 2.0, or 5.1, 7.1 mixed down to 2.0 stereo.
> 
> But, if you want to take full advantage of OOYH 5.1 or 7.1, you have to use a player that sends the right signal to the right channel in OOYH. Darin turned me on to XBMC (http://xbmc.org). It has its idiosyncrasies, but it's pretty impressive and it's free. You really want to go this route to see what OOYH can do. In some ways, it's like nothing you've ever quite experienced before. The spaciousness of a real world surround-sound speaker array with the sense of immersion that comes from headphones. So part of the brilliance of OOYH is the pragmatics of privacy and cost but it's also something of a new hybrid sound delivery system standing between speakers and headphones.


 
 Thanks for posting this info. But I just want to clarify that edewardsean is talking about the Mac OS X version of VLC (the Windows version does not have this problem.) He is using the Mac OS X version of Out Of Your Head. So if you download the Out Of Your Head for OS X trial version from our website, VLC is only recommended for two channel audio. 
  
 I have found that XBMC works much better than VLC on the Mac.
  


michaeljames99 said:


> I'm confused with XBMC... where do you go to resync audio with video?  Do you have to change the sync every time I stream a movie from the internet browser?


 
 You can make the audio offset value permanent.
  
 Once you find the right delay value in XBMC while watching a video, in the audio adjustment window, scroll tot he bottom of that window and click on "Set as default for all videos". Then any video file you open in the future will automatically have the audio delay set.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Another question...
 On all the downloadable demo vists from outofyourhead.net....  I only get 2 channels showing in the Input Audio Channels on the Control Panel..is that correct?  I assume it is because these demos have the premix 7.1 baked into them?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> Another question...
> On all the downloadable demo vists from outofyourhead.net....  I only get 2 channels showing in the Input Audio Channels on the Control Panel..is that correct?  I assume it is because these demos have the premix 7.1 baked into them?


 
 Hi Michael,
  
 I think you are referring to the demo files here:
http://fonguadio.com/demo
  
 You should never play the pre-rendered demo files through Out Of Your Head. The Out Of Your Head processing is already pre-applied to those files. You would be applying the Out Of Your Head processing twice!
  
 But to answer your question, since the online demo files are already processed in Out Of Your Head, they are two channels, one for each ear. But the source files are 2, 6, and 8 channel sources. I just posted them so people could hear sample output from Out Of Your Head without having to download the Windows or Mac trial. People can also listen to those demos on any device.
  
 I hope that makes sense.
  
 -Darin


----------



## MichaelJames99

Darin,
 I want to make sure I am doing this correctly,.....
 I have the OOYH Control Panel up.
 Output devices are either Razer Surround Audio Controller or Realtek High Definition Audio.. I have Realtek selected.
 Im on Windows 8.1, 64 bit.
 I then go under Sound and Out of Your Head Virtual device is the Default Device..if you hit Configure it reads 7.1 Surround. Setting is 32 bit 48000 as Default format
 Realtek is the Default Communication Device..if you select that it only give me a Stereo Pull down?  Enhancements has Immediate Mode checked..no other setting selected on this menu, on Advanced Menu, default is 24 bit 192000.  Exclusive Mode: Allow applications to take exclusive control and Give exclusive mode applications priority are both checked.
  
 I downloaded all the prerendered demos including Pink Floyd and Hotel California to my desktop.. and play them thru Windows Media Player 12.
  
 I also am playing this thru Internet Explorer and downloaded to the desktop:
  
 This is the a Eagles Hotel California 5.1 surround DVD source. It’s an example of 5.1 channel music being played through a 5.1 surround speaker system.
  
 ***But the OOYH control panel keeps saying its 2 channel input??**
  
 What am I doing wrong?
  
 Darin if you have 7.1 or 8 channel source file on your website, I can't find them...


----------



## MichaelJames99

I have XBMC installed but I cant figure out how to setup streaming from the internet?  Is there a plugin I need?  Im on Windows 8.1.. I don't think its possible to get DirectTV nor Amazon prime movies thru XBMC.. they use Silverlight w/DRM on the amazon side and Directv Player/Adobe Flash Player 15 on the DirecTV side. I right click on these to try and find a streaming source to be able to put into XBMC and don't see it.
  
 I see that XBMC has a Netflix plugin.  Not sure how the audio is handled.. I am not on a Mac.. I'm on a Windows 8.1 Asus laptop running a 2880 x 1620 screen. (which is ok for movie watching). Its a high end laptop $2800 one.  **You can access a hidden menu by pressing Shift+Alt+Left Click (Shift+Option+Click on a Mac): Is this for PC's too? and do I have to run Netflix thru XBMC or can I run it separately?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> Darin,
> I want to make sure I am doing this correctly,.....
> I have the OOYH Control Panel up.
> Output devices are either Razer Surround Audio Controller or Realtek High Definition Audio.. I have Realtek selected.
> ...


 
 Hi Michael,
  
 Just to explain, the pre-rendered demo files on my website are NOT for use with Out Of Your Head. They are demo files for people who do not have Out Of Your Head installed or want to hear the *pre-rendered* output from Out Of Your Head without having to install Out Of Your Head. So please do not use the demo files with Out Of Your Head running. The pre-rendered files are recordings made from the output of Out Of Your Head. So if you have Out Of Your Head installed, don't use the demo files! The demo files are two channel meant to be played directly through headphones and NOT through Out Of Your Head since they have already been processed through Out Of Your Head.
  
 I do not have any unprocessed, multi-channel content available on my website. However, there are some websites that do have multi-channel content available for purchase like http://www.itrax.com/.
  
 Alternately, you can play DVD's or Blu-RAy disks if you have a DVD or Blu-Ray drive in your computer. If your computer doesn't have a DVD or Blu-Ray drive, you can buy an external USB drive for very little money and then play DVD's or Blu-Rays and send the audio through Out Of Your Head.
  
 However, It does sound like you have Out Of Your Head configured and setup properly on your system. You just need some multi-channel content to play. But even with any 2 channel music you have, you should be able to hear the 2 channel music coming from the two front virtual speakers just as if you were sitting in a room with speakers listening to two channel music.
  
 With regard to the Razer software, PLEASE make sure that software is* completely disabled when using Out Of Your Head.* It will affect the sound of Out Of Your Head since it is designed to do audio processing also as a virtual sound card. Even if you don't have it selected as the audio output device, it can still affect the sound. Again you don't want to hear audio being processed twice.
  


michaeljames99 said:


> I have XBMC installed but I cant figure out how to setup streaming from the internet?  Is there a plugin I need?  Im on Windows 8.1.. I don't think its possible to get DirectTV nor Amazon prime movies thru XBMC.. they use Silverlight w/DRM on the amazon side and Directv Player/Adobe Flash Player 15 on the DirecTV side. I right click on these to try and find a streaming source to be able to put into XBMC and don't see it.
> 
> I see that XBMC has a Netflix plugin.  Not sure how the audio is handled.. I am not on a Mac.. I'm on a Windows 8.1 Asus laptop running a 2880 x 1620 screen. (which is ok for movie watching). Its a high end laptop $2800 one.  **You can access a hidden menu by pressing Shift+Alt+Left Click (Shift+Option+Click on a Mac): Is this for PC's too? and do I have to run Netflix thru XBMC or can I run it separately?


 
 You do not need XBMC to watch Netflix. You can watch Netflix in a web browser like Internet Explorer. You can use the keyboard shortcut to adjust the audio sync *while *a video is streaming in your browser. The keyboard shortcut only works when streaming Netflix in a browser.
  
 BUT, Netflix does NOT deliver multi-channel content to web browsers. As far as I know, there is no way to watch Netflix in 5.1 audio on a Windows or Mac computer. I don't know why Netflix will not support multi-channel streaming in computers, but you can contact them and ask them. Or maybe someone here can chime in and let us know if there's a way to get 5.1 form Netflix on Windows or OS X.
  
 I hope that answers your questions. Let me know if you need more help, or feel free to PM me any time for additional tech support.
  
 -Darin


----------



## MichaelJames99

I am try the Shift+Alt+Left click on my mousepad on the laptop and no menu is coming up in IE11.. any help here?  Trying to fix audio delay


----------



## MichaelJames99

Darin,
 Here is what I found out so far on Netflix from experimenting on my laptop, Windows 8.1:
  
 If you install the Netflix App from the Windows Store on Windows 8.1, you will get 5.1 as an option under languages.
 If you bring up a IE browser on the desktop, you will only get stereo.
 I still cant get the hidden menu to come up while playing a movie


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> I am try the Shift+Alt+Left click on my mousepad on the laptop and no menu is coming up in IE11.. any help here?  Trying to fix audio delay


 
 I just tried the Netflix player on Windows 8.1 and IE11. I just held down the left shift and alt keys and then left-clicked on the video itself. Then a window popped up within the Netflix player on screen.
  


michaeljames99 said:


> Darin,
> Here is what I found out so far on Netflix from experimenting on my laptop, Windows 8.1:
> 
> If you install the Netflix App from the Windows Store on Windows 8.1, you will get 5.1 as an option under languages.
> ...


 
 I had heard that Netflix was finally going to give Windows 8.1 users the option for 5.1. I checked once before, but just checked again and sure enough, the option is there! Very cool. I can confirm that Netflix will stream 5.1 audio.
  
 Now the bad news... They don't have the audio sync adjustments in the Windows Metro version of the Netflix player! So that's still a pain since there's no way to sync the audio.
  
 We are working on a lower latency version of Out Of Your Head to make the audio sync issues less of an issue. It will also work for gaming too. No idea on availability though.
  
 In the meantime, we should try to get Netflix and Amazon and iTunes to support audio sync adjustments.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Reckless95

It's a cool idea, but just not for me. As someone else said, it sounds airy. It's like me recording my HT through my iPhone, that's the best way I can describe how it sounds. Just take my opinion with a grain of salt though, it's a different concept.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Once the audio sync is figured out, I might be interested.  Thx for all your help work and input.


----------



## bangkokkid

I have been using and listening to the Mac version of OOYH since it was in alpha form and am pleased to report that the public release is now available for purchase. A free trial is available as well (link below).
  
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/


----------



## MichaelJames99

Has the latency/audio sync from movies been fixed (updated) yet?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> Has the latency/audio sync from movies been fixed (updated) yet?


 
 The current version of Out Of Your Head for Mac or Windows  does have a delay when processing audio. The delay does vary a little depending on the speed of the computer, but on Windows, the delay is around 450ms and on OS X it is around 250ms.
  
 For listening to music, it's a non-issue, obviously. For watching videos/movies, most media player apps have adjustments that can compensate for the audio delay in Out Of Your Head. However, there are some apps like iTunes and streaming video clients which do not have audio sync adjustments for video. That is why for watching videos, we recommend apps that do have audio sync adjustments.
  
 Here's a list of some of the apps that have audio sync adjustments:
  
*Windows:*

JRiver Media Center
VideoLan VLC
Netflix
  
*Mac:*

XBMC (soon to be called Kodi)
  
 (There are other apps out there that do have audio sync adjustments. PLease check the documentation of your preferred video playback app.)
  
 We are working on a Windows version that has much lower latency that will be suitable for gaming too, but that is still in it's early stages of development so I have no ETA on that version. It is a very difficult problem to solve. Then after that, we will attempt to do the same on OS X.


----------



## 3ternalDr4gon

Can we use the same license for multiple computers? I have a desktop and I'm thinking about buying a Surface Pro 3 soon, and obviously it would be cool if I didn't have to buy two licenses for both


----------



## 3ternalDr4gon

Haha my bad


----------



## cripple1

3ternaldr4gon said:


> Oh btw - ............. is why I'm asking


 
 Might wanna remove that link man. Sites like that aren't allowed here on Head-fi for various reasons.


----------



## BeatsWork

darinf said:


> You are probably getting some clipping either from your source media player outputting a high level, or the level is too high coming out of Out Of Your Head.
> 
> In either case, you can try lowering the output level of your media player. Or you can also adjust the input and output levels in the Out Of Your Head control panel. Those levels will be saved for each preset so you don't have to do it every time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Had SEVERE clipping with a number of the presets.  Understand the instructions to adjust volumes but this the ONLY application I've experienced clipping with.  Not being cruel just candid - I would not accept this behaviour for $150 + $25 per track.  Also have to agree with prior posts that the soundstage improvement was remarkable BUT the SQ was very thin even on "Magic Speakers". A very impressive feat but not quite sure I'm willing to make the tradeoff.
  
 Jriver>Wyrd>Gunghir>Mjolnir>HE-500


----------



## Brooko

I've been using it for a while now.  Don't use it all the time, but you can get around any clipping by just adjusting the sliders and saving the profile that suits your system.  After that it's set, and you don't need to worry again.  It's magic for movies, and great for music when you want a more speaker like presentation.
  
 I use the Acoustic Zen preset, and don't find it thin at all.
  
 If you do look around, there are promotions from time to time - there is currently one running on a well known mass discount site which I'm not allowed to link to - where you can get up to 50% discount.  IMO that makes it pretty good value.  Of course YMMV.


----------



## darinf

beatswork said:


> Had SEVERE clipping with a number of the presets.  Understand the instructions to adjust volumes but this the ONLY application I've experienced clipping with.  Not being cruel just candid - I would not accept this behaviour for $150 + $25 per track.  Also have to agree with prior posts that the soundstage improvement was remarkable BUT the SQ was very thin even on "Magic Speakers". A very impressive feat but not quite sure I'm willing to make the tradeoff.
> 
> Jriver>Wyrd>Gunghir>Mjolnir>HE-500


 
 Sorry about the clipping issues. Everybody's system varies in terms of clipping, but when I adjusted the default levels of each of the presets down to a level where clipping is less frequent, people complained regularly that the levels were too low. So when I raised the levels, people complained about clipping. So rather than having the levels too low and no way to increase them beyond 100%, I figured people could easily adjust the levels down instead.
  
 I have mentioned before that it's tricky since Out Of Your Head is taking up to 8 channels of audio and converting them down to two channels. During loud passages, this can be a huge range in terms of levels since the software is essentially summing the sound of 8 speakers into each ear.
  
 As far as the "thin" sound, some presets were recorded in fairly bright rooms, so the highs can sound elevated due to room reflections. This can make the overall sound less full since the higher frequencies are elevated. However, other presets recorded in well damped rooms should have a better overall balance. Alternately I have had others comment that the sound it very thin, only to find that it was an issue with other audio processing software causing problems or configuration problems affecting the sound. The sound you get should be very similar to our pre-rendered output samples on our website:
http://fongaudio.com/demo
 (But make SURE that Out Of Your Head is NOT running on your system when listening to the pre-rendered samples to avoid "double processing" the audio.)


----------



## darinf

3ternaldr4gon said:


> Can we use the same license for multiple computers? I have a desktop and I'm thinking about buying a Surface Pro 3 soon, and obviously it would be cool if I didn't have to buy two licenses for both


 
 Sorry about not responding sooner. I somehow missed your post.
  
 Just to clarify, the Out Of Your Head software license is tied to your e-mail address (your account on the fongaudio.com online store.) So you only have to buy the Out Of Your Head software license once.
  
 The speaker presets are tied to a specific computer. So if you want to license and additional computer, you would need to buy a speaker preset license for the additional computer. That cost is $15 to $25 to license an additional computer depending on the preset you want on the additional computer.


----------



## olegausany

Anyone using it with Oppo HA-1 as both Dac and amp using J river MC20? Can't get it to work at all with wasapi driver. Got it to work with Foobar2000 but I have to have HA-1's volume all the way up in order to hear something. I have HD800 headphones and discovered that with headphones on my head the music is coming not from headphones but from outside so I took them off put outer side to my ear and that's where music was coming from. I have tried demo files before downloading the trial and heard great sounding music without such problem


----------



## BeatsWork

olegausany said:


> Can't get it to work at all with wasapi driver.


 
  
 See prior posts.  You either need to adjust WASAPI settings in JR or use DirectSound.


----------



## olegausany

beatswork said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > Can't get it to work at all with wasapi driver.
> ...



I spent several hours doing it with no luck that is why I'm asking if anyone is using MC20 not MC19 and has HA-1 which accepts PCM stereo or DSD only


----------



## BeatsWork

olegausany said:


> I spent several hours doing it with no luck that is why I'm asking if anyone is using MC20 not MC19 and has HA-1 which accepts PCM stereo or DSD only


 
 Got it. Sorry - only have it working with JR20 and Gunghir via DS....


----------



## olegausany

Just tried it with XMBC 13.2 on wasapi and it sounds really great but unfortunately it's least convinient program to use so until it will work with J River I will have to pass on buying the license while I really like several presets and first time ever able to enjoy music without using EQ


----------



## olegausany

beatswork said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > I spent several hours doing it with no luck that is why I'm asking if anyone is using MC20 not MC19 and has HA-1 which accepts PCM stereo or DSD only
> ...



Would you mind sharing your JR20 settings?


----------



## olegausany

So after many hours of frustration last night and half of the day today I finally managed to get JR20 to work in Direct Sound but not wasapi mode plus adjusting preset's volume settings to prevent clipping. So after that I finally was able to try different tracks I normally use to test the gear and found out that I finally can enjoy music without using EQ and worrying that EQ curve will be perfect with every recording I play . So I ended up buying the license for the program plus a pair of presets in addition to the the one I chose for free but I still planning to buy a few more later when funds permits


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hi @darinf, just downloaded the trail version and expecting the license to come to my email here in a few days.
  
 I'm having some issues with OOYH skipping on licenses/speakers with some from the start of music and some after 5-10 seconds. It's even worse with downloaded video (Flixster). I see requirements stating 64-bit OS which I have (W7) but nothing in regards to processing/memory specs. This is one of three laptops I'm trying it out with but this particular one only has a dual-core cheapy AMD processor and 4GB of ram. I would like to get it working on this as my other laptop also has a cheapy dual core celeron and w7-64 if possible. My stay-at-home laptop however is an i7 processor and I'm going to try that next if both dual core laptops don't work.

 Do I have settings incorrect somewhere or is the hardware from this AMD laptop just not up to the task? Skipping only happens when using the OOYH driver but not when outputting directly to the sound card. 

 Couple of notes from trying ot troubleshoot last night were:
 - Output on Foobar is Direct Sound with default playback device set for OOYH driver 
    - tried adjust buffer length on Foobar from 1000ms up to 10,000ms with luck on skipping.
 - When you change the OOYH properties under playback devices from 32bit to 24bit at 48khz, it seems to stop the skipping momentarily and everything sounds great but eventually skipping     starts again within 20 seconds.
 - Certain speakers/drivers default to 24-bit 48khz but most go to 32-bit 48khz
 - The onboard soundcard I'm using for now for the sake of keeping things simple vs a DAC, is set to 24bit 48khz with exclusive mode and priority checked (same as the OOYH driver)
 - I would stop the player (both Foobar and VLC) and music would just keep playing for up 10 seconds.

 Let me know what are some things I can try out to troubleshoot this computer. 

 Thanks,
 Andrew


----------



## darinf

soundsgoodtome said:


> Hi @darinf, just downloaded the trail version and expecting the license to come to my email here in a few days.
> 
> I'm having some issues with OOYH skipping on licenses/speakers with some from the start of music and some after 5-10 seconds. It's even worse with downloaded video (Flixster). I see requirements stating 64-bit OS which I have (W7) but nothing in regards to processing/memory specs. This is one of three laptops I'm trying it out with but this particular one only has a dual-core cheapy AMD processor and 4GB of ram. I would like to get it working on this as my other laptop also has a cheapy dual core celeron and w7-64 if possible. My stay-at-home laptop however is an i7 processor and I'm going to try that next if both dual core laptops don't work.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Andrew,
  
 Thanks for trying Out Of Your Head .
  
 I have successfully used a Core 2 Duo laptop to run Out Of Your Head, but it cannot do 7.1 audio while playing a 1080p H.264 video. It skips.
  
 So I think you are at the edge of processing power for Out Of Your Head to work without skipping. Generally adjustments like buffer size do not help the skipping since ultimately the processor just can't keep up. I doubt the Celeron will work, but it depends how old/new it is.
  
 Out Of Your Head is doing a significant amount of processing on up to 8 channels. That is considerably more than just playing a file. That is why without Out Of Your Head, the audio will play fine.
  
 However, there are a few things to try:
  
 1) Disable security software or create exceptions so that the security software does not try to do real-time scanning of the files being played, etc.
 2) Make sure you set the CPU power/speed to 100%. By default most computers are set to have lower CPU power to extend battery life or save power. Even on the fastest machines, having the CPU speed lower than 100% can cause skipping.
 3) Disable or shutdown any unnecessary background processes
  
 I still have my doubts that you will be able to get Out Of Your Head to run smoothly on either of your dual core systems. Sorry.
  
 Out Of Your Head processes everything at 48kHz/32bit, so that is what it should be set to and left there. If you are using WASAPI, then all audio has to be converted to 48kHz/32bit to work.
  
 When there is skipping, the buffer in Out Of Your Head gets bigger and bigger, so eventually it will be really delayed. That is why you hear audio even after stopping playback. You are hearing the buffer clear.
  
 But, the best thing to do is to use your i7 machine. That should work much better.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

darinf said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Thanks for trying Out Of Your Head .
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, I will try those 3 you mentioned. I did disable my anti-virus as that's caused some movie streaming to skip before. As for the CPU power I believe it's up to max as I was plugged in, I will check the power options and make sure it's not limiting the processor's ability in trade for battery life. As for background services, I could try making a new user with just the bare essentials and see if I get skipping.

 Do you think outputting to an external DAC might help with the skipping or this is coming from the sound processing side on the CPU?

 FWIW here's the specs of the laptop:



  


olegausany said:


> Forget about AMD CPU, your i7 laptop is the way to go


 

*EDIT:
 Great news, it works on my other 'beater' laptop which is a Dual-Core Celeron Lenovo. I really wanted this more to watch movies on the go with headphones so this will work out great for me. The home PC will also get the OOYH treatment via same license but probably different 'speakers'.


----------



## olegausany

Forget about AMD CPU, your i7 laptop is the way to go


----------



## darinf

@Soundsgoodtome:
  
 (I couldn't quote your post properly...)
  
 First, generally an internal vs. external DAC will not affect performance. The DAC functionality is done on a dedicated chip, not in software, so the CPU is not affected. Maybe there is some processing done in software before sending the audio to the DAC chip on the internal DAC, but I don't think so.
  
 Secondly, that's great that your Celeron system worked! You never really know until you try it. I have to admit, I am surprised, but good to know.
  
 Let me know if you have any other problems. (For some reason my subscription to this thread is not working. So if anyone ever needs tech support, it's best to contact us directly via e-mail or our website contact form.)
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

For those of you who are using Out Of Your Head on OS X Yosemite, I finally fixed the driver so now you don't have to type in the Terminal commands or jump through any hoops.
  
 Just go to our website and download the new Out Of Your Head for Mac trial version (version "e").


----------



## darinf

For Windows users, we found a bug that was causing distorted, "echo-y", distant sound in some cases. I think it may have been the same problem others have been reporting in this thread. It was happening when switching between presets intermittently.
  
 It's fixed now (I hope), so download the latest version from our website. *Please* uninstall any previous versions before installing the new version.


----------



## No_One411

darinf said:


> For Windows users, we found a bug that was causing distorted, "echo-y", distant sound in some cases. I think it may have been the same problem others have been reporting in this thread. It was happening when switching between presets intermittently.
> 
> It's fixed now (I hope), so download the latest version from our website. *Please* uninstall any previous versions before installing the new version.


 
 Hey Darin, 
  
 Will we have to get new licenses for this new version? I personally haven't noticed this problem yet, but I'll keep this in mind if it does happen.
  
 Thanks, 
 --Jeff


----------



## darinf

no_one411 said:


> Hey Darin,
> 
> Will we have to get new licenses for this new version? I personally haven't noticed this problem yet, but I'll keep this in mind if it does happen.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Jeff,
  
 No new licenses needed. Just make sure to uninstall the old version before installing the new version.
  
 Not everyone had this issue. It was mostly on Windows 8.1 systems and only once in a while. But I find that doing Head-Fi meets or trade shows are great for finding bugs. I guess running 7 computers with Out Of Your Head for 8 hours will find any bugs if there are any.
  
 -Darin


----------



## No_One411

darinf said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> No new licenses needed. Just make sure to uninstall the old version before installing the new version.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the reply. 
  
 If it helps, I haven't noticed the problem with my Windows 7 system. 
  
 Meets do help serve as a QA of sorts.


----------



## Paradigm

Gotta love M******p........ Happy new owner


----------



## cripple1

paradigm said:


> Gotta love m******p........ Happy new owner


 
 That site is pretty great, but you might wanna edit it out of your post. Group buy sites being mentioned aren't allowed here on Head-fi. Wouldn't want this thread getting shut down or anything.


----------



## Xenophon

I ended up reading this thread after doing research on the virtualiser and deciding that it wasn't for me (price + extremely inconvenient connectivity + the difficulty associated with creating customised files).  Read this thread and frankly thought I'd be disappointed and that it would never produce good results with the type of music I listen to.
  
 Have to say, I was totally amazed after giving it a try.  Listening with my Mac connected to an el cheapo dac and then via RCA to my vintage Pioneer receiver and my HE-6.  Works perfectly on Yosemite too.  Some of the speaker configurations were not for me but with a couple of configurations were a revelation, the 'outside your head' emulation is amazing; despite knowing the sound was coming from my cans I kept looking at a point in space ahead of me.  I'll purchase a license, now it's just a matter on deciding on the speaker config file.


----------



## olegausany

First of all I want to thank Darin for releasing latest version which fixed most of the issues I was experiencing except one so my question to those who have the latest version if you have any problems right clicking and scrolling down to reduce volume inside control panel. I have logitech g700 mouse and even unloading logitech software doesn't help. I would suggest to use Foobar2000 with SoX resampler for best results but if you want to use J River MC20 make sure you use Direct Sound instead of wasapi since converting 2 channels to 7.1


----------



## Music Alchemist

@darinf
  
 I have yet to read the thread, but wanted to pose my question from elsewhere here.
  


music alchemist said:


> How would you say it compares to the Smyth Realiser A8? Does using them in conjunction enhance the experience? (I noticed you own both.)


----------



## darinf

Quote: (Posted on the Schiit Ragnarok thread) 





music alchemist said:


> [a little off-topic]
> 
> Well whaddaya know...you're the developer of the Out Of Your Head software that I want to try out eventually.
> 
> How would you say it compares to the Smyth Realiser A8? Does using them in conjunction enhance the experience? (I noticed you own both.)


 
  
 Hi @Music Alchemist
 As a MOT here, I am not allowed to "review" my own product or comment on competing products. But maybe others who have heard both might be able to give you an idea.
  
 But I can say that you cannot use both in conjunction. You would use one or the other, not both. Both Out Of Your Head and the Realiser A8 are similar functionality.


----------



## Music Alchemist

darinf said:


> But I can say that you cannot use both in conjunction. You would use one or the other, not both. Both Out Of Your Head and the Realiser A8 are similar functionality.


 
  
 Oh, I had no idea you couldn't use them together! I guess that makes sense, though, since they could interfere with each other.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

If there was only a poll to see which speaker license people are purchasing...


----------



## darinf

olegausany said:


> First of all I want to thank Darin for releasing latest version which fixed most of the issues I was experiencing except one so my question to those who have the latest version if you have any problems right clicking and scrolling down to reduce volume inside control panel. I have logitech g700 mouse and even unloading logitech software doesn't help. I would suggest to use Foobar2000 with SoX resampler for best results but if you want to use J River MC20 make sure you use Direct Sound instead of wasapi since converting 2 channels to 7.1


 
 Hi Oleg,
  
 I was able to find a Windows machine that has the problem with the master control volume down problem you reported. The levels can be moved down with the right mouse button, but the levels barely move down even if you move the mouse down fast. I am working on fixing that bug.
  
 You can use WASAPI in JRiver, but you do have to have JRiver convert all the sampling rates to 24bit/48kHz in the DSP audio settings. You do not need to up convert from 2 channels to 7.1 in the traditional sense. With WASAPI, Out Of Your Head wants to see a 7.1 audio signal, but if you have a 2 channel source, audio is only sent on two channels. You can leave the Mixing setting set to "No upmixing or down mixing". Alternately  you can use the JRSS function in JRiver to have JRiver up mix a 2 channel or 5.1 channel source to 7.1 channels to give you pseudo surround.
  
 Here's the settings I use for JRiver and WASAPI Out Of Your Head:
  
 This is the "Device Settings" window after you select Out Of Your Head WASAPI:

  
  
 This is the "Tools/Options/Audio/Settings/DSP & output format..." window:

  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

soundsgoodtome said:


> If there was only a poll to see which speaker license people are purchasing...


 
 I don't know how useful a poll would be since you are not only talking about people's preferences or tastes, but one preset might work great for one person and not work very well at all for someone else. The sound of each preset in Out Of Your Head is dependent on your personal HRTF (head related transfer function) meaning the shape of your ears will affect how well the preset works for you vs. another person.
  
 The best way is to listen to all the presets and see which ones work best for your ears.
  
 Generally most people can find presets that work well for them, just not necessarily the same presets that work for someone else.


----------



## olegausany

darinf said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > First of all I want to thank Darin for releasing latest version which fixed most of the issues I was experiencing except one so my question to those who have the latest version if you have any problems right clicking and scrolling down to reduce volume inside control panel. I have logitech g700 mouse and even unloading logitech software doesn't help. I would suggest to use Foobar2000 with SoX resampler for best results but if you want to use J River MC20 make sure you use Direct Sound instead of wasapi since converting 2 channels to 7.1
> ...



I'm using those settings, you emailed them to me but if you will point your mouse to the rightmost little icon in the upper right corner you can see small popup window which shows the status of what is happening while track is playing in a box between input signal and the output signal. If your output device is Direct Sound you will only see one line stating that resampling from 44.1k to 48k takes place as expected but if your output device is wasapi a second line will appear below stating 'Converting 2.0 to 7.1' and to me there is noticeable difference between output I hear. 
Thanks for discovering that mouse volume adjustment is really an issue and trying to fix it


----------



## darinf

olegausany said:


> I'm using those settings, you emailed them to me but if you will point your mouse to the rightmost little icon in the upper right corner you can see small popup window which shows the status of what is happening while track is playing in a box between input signal and the output signal. If your output device is Direct Sound you will only see one line stating that resampling from 44.1k to 48k takes place as expected but if your output device is wasapi a second line will appear below stating 'Converting 2.0 to 7.1' and to me there is noticeable difference between output I hear.
> Thanks for discovering that mouse volume adjustment is really an issue and trying to fix it


 
 Hi Oleg,
  
 The "Converting 2.0 to 7.1" just means JRiver is essentially putting the audio into a 7.1 format audio stream, but it's not "upmixing' the actual audio to create audio on channels that didn't have audio to begin with. JRiver is not altering or adding any audio. So for a 2.0 channel file, it will send audio on channels 1 and 2 and then send no audio on channels 3 to 8. It's still a 7.1 format audio stream with *no *audio on channels 3 to 8. 
  
 WASAPI and Direct Sound will sound different since WASAPI is not going through the Windows mixer and Direct Sound is.


----------



## olegausany

darinf said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > I'm using those settings, you emailed them to me but if you will point your mouse to the rightmost little icon in the upper right corner you can see small popup window which shows the status of what is happening while track is playing in a box between input signal and the output signal. If your output device is Direct Sound you will only see one line stating that resampling from 44.1k to 48k takes place as expected but if your output device is wasapi a second line will appear below stating 'Converting 2.0 to 7.1' and to me there is noticeable difference between output I hear.
> ...



I'm well aware that they will sound differently but with previous version I preferred J River with Direct Sound as best for me but with the new version I prefer Foobar2000 with SoX resampler


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## preproman




----------



## darinf

Some people were still having installation problems on the Mac. We also identified a few other bugs. So if you are on Mac, please download and install the latest Mac trial version from our website. You can just install the new version over the old one.


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## Crman

Darin, sorry to ask you this, but I read about the new Atmos technology for headphones (that use biaural technology) and I started to think if you have tried it and what are the differences between that and OOYH. I know that right now you only have a 7.1 preset, but as you told me in a previous post that in theory you can add as much speakers as you want (if the hardware can process them) I was curious if OOYH can be a better solution than Dolby's, because right now it is.


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> Darin, sorry to ask you this, but I read about the new Atmos technology for headphones (that use biaural technology) and I started to think if you have tried it and what are the differences between that and OOYH. I know that right now you only have a 7.1 preset, but as you told me in a previous post that in theory you can add as much speakers as you want (if the hardware can process them) I was curious if OOYH can be a better solution than Dolby's, because right now it is.


 
 Hi Crman,
  
 Thanks for posting.
  
 As far as I know, no one has heard Dolby Atmos for headphones. Maybe someone else can point me to a demo or impressions. There's no way to know how it compares to the old Dolby Headphone or Out Of Your Head.
  
 I also don't know how far away Dolby Atmos for headphones is from being a shipping product or released software for say the Kindle Fire. (The Kindle Fire is the first device I've seen mentioned that may have Dolby Atmos for headphones.) And then we would assume that Amazon would have to start streaming Dolby Atmos content.
  
 For Out Of Your Head, our technology is scalable to as many speakers in any position as needed given there is enough processing power for the number of channels. But the concept and quality of the sound and the localization of the sound would be the same for all speakers. So it's definitely possible for us to do an Atmos speaker configuration preset with 12 or more speakers.
  
 But, Out Of Your Head does not do any of the multichannel audio decoding. We rely on the media player to do that. So we would also have to wait until the media player apps support Dolby Atmos. The media player would have to decode and process the audio and then send discrete audio for each speaker to Out Of Your Head. This is probably the part that will take the longest in terms of implementation. I don't know when there will be a software Dolby Atmos processing solution.
  
 Like any new technology trickling down to the consumer, there usually is a lot of hype and press about it initially, but it can be a different story in terms of the wait until you can actually go out and buy and use the technology. Sure, you can go out and buy Dolby Atmos gear now for your home theater, but you pay "early adopter" prices and what are you even going to watch? You would end up upconverting regular 7.1 or 5.1 content to give you pseudo Atmos (i.e. the new Dolby Surround technology.) Then you would also probably be upsampling all your HD content to 4K too! 
  
 I have no doubt it's coming and I hope to have a version of Out Of Your Head that supports Dolby Atmos when it's really available.


----------



## Crman

darinf said:


> Hi Crman,
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> ...


 
 Darin thanks for answering me so fast. The truth is that the reviews about the first blu-ray with Atmos (the Transformers movie) all say that seeing the movie with Atmos is a completely different experience, so I'm very curious about the technology. Until now I'm very happy with your technology and as I don't want to fill my walls with wires, and I like to be always in the best position for audio (which I can with your software, regardless of where I am) I'm going to wait until you have a preset for Dolby, and perhaps latter for Auro 3D too. That way I can enjoy both of them without having to change the place of the speakers. 
  
 There is one other thing I would like to comment to you. The other day I was commenting your technology with a friend and I told him to go to OOYH webpage and try to listen the pre-rendered videos you have there, and he was a little bit disappointed with the technology because he had the perception that the speakers weren't placed in the right place. After that I told him to download the free trial and try other presets and there were some he liked very much. I'm telling you this because with me happened the same thing with the pre-rendered videos, so I thought that maybe you could put in the OOYH page one or two videos with other presets (because all are with the home theater) because I'm sure that a lot of people hear first the demos before downloading it, and they can be having the wrong idea about the software.


----------



## magiccabbage

I might try this later on. I presume the link from page 1 still works?


----------



## darinf

crman said:


> Darin thanks for answering me so fast. The truth is that the reviews about the first blu-ray with Atmos (the Transformers movie) all say that seeing the movie with Atmos is a completely different experience, so I'm very curious about the technology. Until now I'm very happy with your technology and as I don't want to fill my walls with wires, and I like to be always in the best position for audio (which I can with your software, regardless of where I am) I'm going to wait until you have a preset for Dolby, and perhaps latter for Auro 3D too. That way I can enjoy both of them without having to change the place of the speakers.
> 
> There is one other thing I would like to comment to you. The other day I was commenting your technology with a friend and I told him to go to OOYH webpage and try to listen the pre-rendered videos you have there, and he was a little bit disappointed with the technology because he had the perception that the speakers weren't placed in the right place. After that I told him to download the free trial and try other presets and there were some he liked very much. I'm telling you this because with me happened the same thing with the pre-rendered videos, so I thought that maybe you could put in the OOYH page one or two videos with other presets (because all are with the home theater) because I'm sure that a lot of people hear first the demos before downloading it, and they can be having the wrong idea about the software.


 
 FYI, I was referring to reviews or impressions specifically about "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" technology, not just Dolby Atmos at home. Yes, Dolby Atmos in theaters and now in homes has definitely been reviewed and many people have posted impressions, etc. But translating that experience into a binaural headphone experience is a whole different matter. It's one thing to mount additional speakers in a ceiling and hook it up to an Atmos processor. It's an entirely different thing to recreate the sound of a 7.4.1 speaker system in headphones only. Let's also not forget about DTS Headphone X. DTS has demoed their system many times and for two years at CES, but I have yet to see any products with the technology.
  
 My goal with Out Of Your Head was to make something available NOW that works with all existing content. I mean we're talking about Dolby Atmos using 12 speakers yet how much content can you actually buy that even has 7.1 audio? (According to this page, 6.62% of all Blu-Ray releases are 7.1) I mean even the Gravity release on Blu-Ray is only 5.1! My point is really that new technology takes time but in the meantime, I wanted people to be able to enjoy what they have now.
  
 Thanks for the feedback on the pre-rendered demos here: http://fongaudio.com/demo. I will endeavor to make more demo files using different presets so there is a better chance that some of the demos will work better for other people who aren't "compatible" with the current demo files.
  
 Thanks again for all your feedback!


----------



## darinf

magiccabbage said:


> I might try this later on. I presume the link from page 1 still works?


 
 Yes, the link in the first post is just a link to the Darin Fong Audio website. There you can find more information about Out Of Your Head and download a free trial.


----------



## magiccabbage

darinf said:


> Yes, the link in the first post is just a link to the Darin Fong Audio website. There you can find more information about Out Of Your Head and download a free trial.


 
 cool, thanks


----------



## Crman

darinf said:


> FYI, I was referring to reviews or impressions specifically about "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" technology, not just Dolby Atmos at home. Yes, Dolby Atmos in theaters and now in homes has definitely been reviewed and many people have posted impressions, etc. But translating that experience into a binaural headphone experience is a whole different matter. It's one thing to mount additional speakers in a ceiling and hook it up to an Atmos processor. It's an entirely different thing to recreate the sound of a 7.4.1 speaker system in headphones only. Let's also not forget about DTS Headphone X. DTS has demoed their system many times and for two years at CES, but I have yet to see any products with the technology.
> 
> My goal with Out Of Your Head was to make something available NOW that works with all existing content. I mean we're talking about Dolby Atmos using 12 speakers yet how much content can you actually buy that even has 7.1 audio? (According to this page, 6.62% of all Blu-Ray releases are 7.1) I mean even the Gravity release on Blu-Ray is only 5.1! My point is really that new technology takes time but in the meantime, I wanted people to be able to enjoy what they have now.
> 
> ...


 
 I understood that you were talking about Dolby technology for headphones, but I think that the surround simulation in your software is so good that I feel the need to compare it with real Atmos with physical speakers and not with other headphones technology. In my opinion OOYH is the best software that I have tried until now so for that reason even if other options appear, of course I will try them if I have the chance, but I'm going to wait until there is a preset in OOYH compatible with Atmos (even if it takes several years to appear because I know it needs a player that is compatible with it) because I think your technology is very good. Until that happens I will continue to enjoy listening my 5.1 and 7.1 surround movies with the awesome surround that your software provides and spreading the word among my friends.


----------



## Paradigm

I don't even know where start in regards to addressing my take on this DSP software. I have spent the last 5 hours listening to various tracks in my audio collection ranging from some of the best recorded/mastered albums, to middle ground content and all the way to the usual "HOTMASTED" aggressive in your face over compressed tracks. 

Oh and for the record, my gear in evaluating OOYH is as follows: 
HD650 (excellent mid-range, bassy, vield/dark), 
Titaniam HD + external DAC 
gilmore Lite amp
foobar 2000 - WASAPI - OFYH


I have found that the overall end result is highly dependent on many factors. These include:

Genre tied in with the Mixing/Mastering Quality
Gear(headphones)
Individual's unique hearing profile

Basically this DSP represents to me possibilities that I have not ever experienced before with any other HTRF software other than maybe IStone. It's as if this could possibility represent a major milestone in the path to achieving acceptable 2 channel Speaker reproduction on headsets without the severe loss of audio fidelity with the unwanted addition of gimmicky, thin excessive reverberation, hollow presentation. As accurate as headsets are, they lack that natural wide open soundstage that only speakers can reproduce. We are essentially listening to audio that was mixed and mastered with speakers in mind for playback. I am willing to compromise a little if the end result becomes a more enjoyable and immersive experience, which I personally feel OFYH accomplishes. 

My main gripe is the near impossibility in determining the one best preset that is all around balanced. The reason for this is simply there is not one. Sound familiar? it should this is no different when one is purchasing a speaker. I have yet to comes across any speaker in the $1000-10000 range that excels at all genres of music. Usually when I purchase speakers I always have to have 2 different sets one for classical and jazz the other for Rock, Pop etc..... Basically you have your critical speaker, and then you have your colored forgiving one. I feel it's incredibly important, especially today to have a speaker that colors the sound and add's a fun exciting factor. The reason for this is the result of most records being very poorly Mixed and *MASTERED*.

With OFYH, for example when I play "The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings" track #1 Spanish Harlem 24bit-96 and use Gen Elec Preset. I get a crystal clear and neutral presentation. Bare in mind this perception is based off of using HD650's.
Now If I play an average ever day of the mill mastered album it becomes to bright and fatiguing. In that case I just switch over to a different preset such as Magical speaks or Zen which tend to be much for forgiving and bingo problem resolved. I love the ability to switch presets that best suit whatever particular recording I have. 

My favorite presets with HD650's are as follows:
#1 Genelec Recording Studio ( all around good)
#2 Italian Speakers (music + Movies)
#3 Sasha (certain Classical albums)
#4 AZen Maestro ( movies)

Currently I have the Genelec preset paid for and plan to purchase another 4 in the next coming days.

-----------------------* MOVIES*----------------------------

Dolbyheadphone is dead to me. Also listened to DTS headhone X or whatever it's called and was not impressed at all.

I recently purchased this software primary for music, however the 5.1-7.1 simulation is far superior to DolbyHeadphone. I am currently using MPC-HC + MadVR+reclock with a -450ms latency added for proper syncing. My only issue is that as of right now you need a powerful headphone amp to in order to hear the sound at a decent level. My Gilmore Lite, paired with my HD650 has to be turned up 88%(beyond that and distortion kicks in, AMP is at it's limits) just to be able to match the loudness when I was using DH. The reason for this is because when I select a preset I have to turn it down -10 to 11 dB in order to prevent clipping during very complex and loud passages in a movie. It seems I need to upgrade my amp to something with a little more power ( any suggestions). I think darin said in the future if possible he will try to work out or reduce those clipping issues somewhat, can't remember but Darin if you could please further comment on this issue, I would be grateful. As of right now you have to reduce volume in the OFYH Control panel by -10db to avoid clipping in movies and in my case the overall volume is acceptable but not as loud as I would have liked. 

Overall, Darin I must say I am a huge supporter of your creation here and I am very excited to hear that you are working on a gaming version with lower latency. This would be spectacular. 
By the way, Kudos for making the correct decision by choosing the higher bit-rate vs higher sampling. 

One more thing I should mention to those contemplating purchasing OFYH. Software support is *TOP NOTCH*. Darin is very diligent in both answering questions and accommodating any software related issues that might creep up. Clearly this man stands 100% behind his product.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Spoiler: Click to expand the post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Paradigm,
 Thank you for taking the time to try Out Of Your Head and for the comprehensive review. It's always great feedback to hear from users.
  
 With regard to your main "gripe" about needing different speakers for different music:
 I agree, but unfortunately most people don't have the means to have different gear for different recordings/genres especially with regard to speakers. So I believe this is the first time there has been a relatively affordable alternative to be able to listen to different speakers for different recordings. So for $25, you can have a new set of speakers to use. (I know it's not like owning the "real thing", but it's better than having no options at all. Did I mention that each set of speakers is $25?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 It's also interesting because Out Of Your Head really the only way to even switch speakers quickly so you can compare the sound "side by side" so to speak. When I first started developing Out Of Your Head, it was amazing to me how different all the speakers and rooms sounded. Before, I would listen to one set of speakers at a friend's house or a dealer and then weeks later, go somewhere else and hear a different set up. For the most part, they all sounded pretty good. But when you can switch from one set of speakers to another with a click of the mouse, the differences are SO much bigger! No "golden ears" required. Many people who first hear a demo of Out Of Your Head generally react the same way. It's very enlightening. I wish we could do the same thing for headphones and headphone gear...
  
 Regarding the clipping issues in Out Of Your Head, here's something I posted before:
  
  Quote:


darinf said:


> Sorry about the clipping issues. Everybody's system varies in terms of clipping, but when I adjusted the default levels of each of the presets down to a level where clipping is less frequent, people complained regularly that the levels were too low. So when I raised the levels, people complained about clipping. So rather than having the levels too low and no way to increase them beyond 100%, I figured people could easily adjust the levels down instead.
> 
> I have mentioned before that it's tricky since Out Of Your Head is taking up to 8 channels of audio and converting them down to two channels. During loud passages, this can be a huge range in terms of levels since the software is essentially summing the sound of 8 speakers into each ear.


 
 Ultimately I have some ideas on how to address this issue, but I really don't want to add any volume compression into the processing. I think recordings already have plenty of that to begin with. The dynamic range required to go from a quiet passage from two speakers to a loud action movie with 8 speakers is significant. Although our 32bit processing has a lot of dynamic range, to avoid clipping with 8 speakers at full volume, the quiet passages with two speakers are going to be at a lower level than most people are used to and that their amps/DACs can deal with.
  
 Even though it's not ideal, at least you can adjust the levels in Out Of Your Head depending on the content you are playing back.
  
 Thank you again for all your support and help in making Out Of Your Head even better moving forward.
  
 -Darin


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## olegausany

That's exactly why I suggested to have volume level profiles so that you can easily switch between them depending on the recording you have


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## Paradigm

I would concur with the implementation of preset options as a highly needed feature so that when you listen to music or movies the ability and ease for the user to quickly change volume presets would make a much smoother hassle free transition.


----------



## Paradigm

> It's also interesting because Out Of Your Head really the only way to even switch speakers quickly so you can compare the sound "side by side" so to speak. When I first started developing Out Of Your Head, it was amazing to me how different all the speakers and rooms sounded. Before, I would listen to one set of speakers at a friend's house or a dealer and then weeks later, go somewhere else and hear a different set up. For the most part, they all sounded pretty good. But when you can switch from one set of speakers to another with a click of the mouse, the differences are SO much bigger! No "golden ears" required. Many people who first hear a demo of Out Of Your Head generally react the same way. It's very enlightening. I wish we could do the same thing for headphones and headphone gear.




Darin you hit nail on the head. Most people when doing AB comparisons amongst speakers or headphones rarely are able to do so with the luxury of having many different models to switch between instantaneously. Sure everything sounds good on quality gear, and most A/B comparrsions on on in different room setups to against he variables change. Using headphones (a closed controlled chamber) then having the ability to not only change speaker setups but audio sources as well, really is paramount in being able to better determine what ones personal preferences are. Furthermore it also illustrates to the listener the importance of there being a strict standard that should be adhered to when it comes to mastering as evident by the result with different audio sources and that ultimately unless we all use the same speakers used in the studio or i guess headphones results and personal preferences with widely vary. 

It seems to me that the best type of headphones to be used in giving off the most accurate representation for each preset would be a neutral and rather fast headphone, such as Planar magnet's and electrostatic. I maybe wrong(and please correct me if I am) but I think the dynamic driver based headset's being cone shaped result in the various frequency ranges leaving the the surface of the driver at different times which probably heavy alter's the shape/sound of the original unique nuances encompassed in each of the sampled preset when they were created. I'm guessing that HD650's being on the more bassy side, having a more "slower" darker sound and not as fast acting in attack and decay as the eltro and planer would not be the most ideal headsets. It's no wonder why I prefer the Genelec's since they have a flat response and could be perceived as bright, however those are the very same characteristics I looked for when selecting my amp to pair with them(Syngery) Gilmore Lite. I know you mentioned one time that you had used Stax headphones when these presets were being constructed. a few of the presets(not all) sounded too bassy for me. I would bet If I used a different pair of headset's such has a hi-fi man etc...that my opinion would be highly susceptible to changing.

There was one preset that I didn't care for in general, yet this particular bass heavy track i played on it absolutely blew me away by how the preset dealt with the low frequency. The bass was tight, articulate, punchy with excellent bass definition and low end extension. It's mid to highs left much to be desired. But to listen to bass reproduced on my headsets that even outclassed the standard untouched bitmtached recording without any DSP was an absolute delight. If allowed I would love to upload an audacity processed 20 sec clip of the untouched track vs the one with the DSP so people here could see the difference.


----------



## Xenophon

Speakers are a magnificent evil:  nothing approaches a live concert like a speaker system if the stars are correctly aligned.  But otoh everything has to be _just_ right (room conditioning, position, total audio chain) and _stay_ just right (move a piece of furniture or throw down a new rug and you can easily upset a delicate balance).  Very easy to spend a crapaton of money and not end up with a good result.  I'm not even going into spouses and neighbours who are not into one's kind of music and simply don't understand that huge dynamic range classical recordings can mean changes from very quiet to very loud in minimum time.  And the fact that I'm an insomniac and like listening to a concert at 3 am.  
  
 Love this software on my mac and listening to my HE-6, also works very well with my HD-800 but I feel the HE-6 benefit most.  The presets that were mentioned might be handy though.  And is it just me or does the application use a lot of CPU cycles while running?  At least that's what my console tells me.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> There was one preset that I didn't care for in general, yet this particular bass heavy track i played on it absolutely blew me away by how the preset dealt with the low frequency. The bass was tight, articulate, punchy with excellent bass definition and low end extension. It's mid to highs left much to be desired. But to listen to bass reproduced on my headsets that even outclassed the standard untouched bitmtached recording without any DSP was an absolute delight. If allowed I would love to upload an audacity processed 20 sec clip of the untouched track vs the one with the DSP so people here could see the difference.


 
 Sorry about not responding sooner.
  
 You certainly can post whatever you want. Thanks for asking. I do recommend you stress to people that the processed output from Out Of Your Head must be used with headphones. Otherwise, people may listen to it with speakers and think it sounds weird. (People may still think it sounds weird, but at least they will be using headphones.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  


xenophon said:


> Love this software on my mac and listening to my HE-6, also works very well with my HD-800 but I feel the HE-6 benefit most.  The presets that were mentioned might be handy though.  And is it just me or does the application use a lot of CPU cycles while running?  At least that's what my console tells me.


 
 Yes, there is a significant amount of DSP going on here. Plus 8 channels takes 8 times as much processing power as one channel. For most modern computers, it's not a problem, but if you have your CPU dialed down to save battery or you have a CPU older than say a Core 2 Duo, then you might not have enough power to process 8 channels of audio and decode a 1080p H.264 video at the same time.
  
 For the first version of Out Of Your Head, we just wanted to get it to work. Since we knew we would have a lot of processing power in the average computer, we were not too worried about the availability of CPU power. Moving forward, we are working on optimizing the algorithm and the processing engine to lower the CPU requirements and lower the latency. Also, with iOS or Android, CPU power is significantly less, so Out Of Your Head is going to have to be much more efficient to even work on low power mobile processors.


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## Aaranu

I just installed the trial selected a preset and played back a bluray rip in vlc and it seems the audio is out of sync by a few milliseconds, enough to be annoying. Whats going wrong?


----------



## darkless

Quote:


aaranu said:


> I just installed the trial selected a preset and played back a bluray rip in vlc and it seems the audio is out of sync by a few milliseconds, enough to be annoying. Whats going wrong?


 
  
 Check the quote below from post #218:
  


darinf said:


> The current version of Out Of Your Head for Mac or Windows  does have a delay when processing audio. The delay does vary a little depending on the speed of the computer, but on Windows, the delay is around 450ms and on OS X it is around 250ms.
> 
> For listening to music, it's a non-issue, obviously. For watching videos/movies, most media player apps have adjustments that can compensate for the audio delay in Out Of Your Head. However, there are some apps like iTunes and streaming video clients which do not have audio sync adjustments for video. That is why for watching videos, we recommend apps that do have audio sync adjustments.
> 
> ...


----------



## Aaranu

darkless said:


> Quote:
> 
> Check the quote below from post #218:


Thanks mate!


----------



## MichaelJames99

Question.....  so the laptop has the OOYH software installed..   so if I have everything running thru my preamp/processor that has a digital output (like my PS3, Netflix from the TV back to preamp)... how do you run the audio thru the laptop?  I have USB ports?  or can you guys suggest some ways to configure all the hardware?


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## olegausany

How is your preamp connected to laptop? In order to use it you need to use player on your laptop, such as VLC or JRiver for example.


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> Question.....  so the laptop has the OOYH software installed..   so if I have everything running thru my preamp/processor that has a digital output (like my PS3, Netflix from the TV back to preamp)... how do you run the audio thru the laptop?  I have USB ports?  or can you guys suggest some ways to configure all the hardware?


 
 I am not 100% sure I understand your question, but I will take a shot and guess at what you're asking...
  
 I think you're asking how can you get the audio from your preamp/processor to be processed by Out Of Your Head and then to your headphones like this:
  
 (PS3, TV audio, etc) --> A/V preamp/processor --> laptop --> Out Of Your Head --> headphones
  
 The short answer is you can't exactly, unfortunately.
  
 Basically since most laptops or computers don't have inputs for multi-channel audio, Out Of Your Head requires that your media sources originate on the laptop, not from outside the laptop. That is why you have to use JRiver, VLC, etc. playback software on your computer in order to process the audio through Out Of Your Head.
  
 In theory, you could use an input A to D converter to get sound into your computer and then send that audio through Out Of Your Head. Or if your hook up a digital *input *device to your computer via USB, then you could take the digital output of your AV preamp/processor and send that into your computer and then through Out Of Your Head to your headphones. However, I am pretty sure you can only get two channel audio this way even using a digital input. You would also have to run some audio software like Audacity to take the audio input and send it in real-time to the audio output (Out Of Your Head ).
  
 So IF you have an audio input on your computer and you only needed two channel audio you could do this:
  
 (PS3, TV audio, etc) --> A/V preamp/processor --> either digital or analog audio INPUT to your computer--> Audacity (Or some other audio software) --> Out Of Your Head --> headphones
  
 The main problem with this approach is that there would be significant audio delay and if you are watching video, the audio would be extremely out of sync with the picture. You would have to adjust the audio sync on your PS3 or the Netflix on the TV, if that's even possible.
  
 For Netflix, you are much better off playing back Netflix on you computer and sending the audio through Out Of Your Head and the video out via HDMI to your TV from your computer. The Netflix player on Windows or Mac does have audio sync adjustments.
  
 Anyway, forgive me if I misunderstood your question. Please clarify if you need more explanation.
  
 -Darin


----------



## erdawe

I bought this from the unnamed website venture that happened to discount it. I am very eager to implement this once my main laptop rig gets back from the shop to be fixed.
  
 Has this been updated for Mavericks implementation yet or is it still waiting for program approval?

 Also, after some research it seems that the only program which actually decodes (key word, not bitstreams) DSTHD and DTS MA happens to be a wonderful piece of software which has now been sadly discontinued shortly after finding out about its existence, Arcsoft medica
  
 My dream of using this with lossless multi-channel audio setup for blurays with the headphone of my choice seems to be slipping.
  
 I have to see if I can trick my new Sony MDR HW700DS to output a virtualized mixdown of decoded bitstream DTS HD and output that virtualized mixdown via the optical out.
  
 My real problem with dolby headphone is that it only takes the dts or ac3 core and nothing more.
  
 Anyways, it's a real shame there aren't any real software support for lossless multichannel DECODING anymore for computer playback of bluray.


----------



## cripple1

erdawe said:


> I bought this from the unnamed website venture that happened to discount it. I am very eager to implement this once my main laptop rig gets back from the shop to be fixed.
> 
> Has this been updated for Mavericks implementation yet or is it still waiting for program approval?
> 
> ...


 
 Just a heads up.. That "unnamed website venture" that you are referring to is Massdrop, right? They recently have been recognized as a headphone reseller on this site as of a few days or so ago and it seems the ban no longer applies to them. 

 On another note, I've been using OOYH for about a month now and I'm having trouble using my Mac without it. The software works great!


----------



## erdawe

Ok well now that the ban is lifted, yes it was Massdrop...

 I tried a few weeks ago to get this up and going on Yosemite. I upgraded to Yosemite before purchasing this product and found issues with my trial software getting permission to overtake the audio driver. I cannot undo the Yosemite upgrade.
 I was directed to a series of Terminal foo I had to do, which I'm no terminal wiz. I'm very eager to get this running on mac once Apples gives this software their rubber stamp. Right now I have it removed mostly from applications as I could not get it to go on my Yosemite upgrades (again upgrade before I owned this product).


----------



## erdawe

I guess Apple is partly to blame with their ridiculous and controlling permissions structure for software manufacturers.

 I'd be interested in a Linux build if the software selection and adoption for media consumption weren't so piss poor.


----------



## olegausany

It's happening cause many people don't understand or don't care that they support monopoly which should be illegal anyway


----------



## cripple1

erdawe said:


> Ok well now that the ban is lifted, yes it was Massdrop...
> 
> I tried a few weeks ago to get this up and going on Yosemite. I upgraded to Yosemite before purchasing this product and found issues with my trial software getting permission to overtake the audio driver. I cannot undo the Yosemite upgrade.
> I was directed to a series of Terminal foo I had to do, which I'm no terminal wiz. I'm very eager to get this running on mac once Apples gives this software their rubber stamp. Right now I have it removed mostly from applications as I could not get it to go on my Yosemite upgrades (again upgrade before I owned this product).


 
 I had problems getting it going on Yosemite as well. Darin gave me these instructions and they worked perfectly. Took all of 2 minutes before I got it up and running using Yosemite.

  
I have briefly tested Yosemite beta, but have not tested the release version yet.
 
First, I think you are going to have to reinstall Out Of Your Head. Please download the latest trial version from my website:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/
 
And reinstall Out Of Your Head.
 
You might get an error when trying to install the Out Of Your Head driver. I am working on fixing the issue, but for now, you may have to run the following commands:
 


> To enable installing third party KEXTs, you just run this command in a Terminal window:
> sudo nvram boot-args="kext-dev-mode=1"
> Then reboot
> After reboot OOYH.kext should load. (You should see the OOYH (16CH) audio device as an option in the Sound system preferences.
> If not, reinstall Out Of Your Head and it should complete without the error.


----------



## Xenophon

erdawe said:


> Ok well now that the ban is lifted, yes it was Massdrop...
> 
> I tried a few weeks ago to get this up and going on Yosemite. I upgraded to Yosemite before purchasing this product and found issues with my trial software getting permission to overtake the audio driver. I cannot undo the Yosemite upgrade.
> I was directed to a series of Terminal foo I had to do, which I'm no terminal wiz. I'm very eager to get this running on mac once Apples gives this software their rubber stamp. Right now I have it removed mostly from applications as I could not get it to go on my Yosemite upgrades (again upgrade before I owned this product).


 

 I've been running running OOYH on Yosemite 10.10.1 for several weeks, no issues at all.  You just have to authorise the unsigned software during installation.  I've been running Linux/Unix for years while I was in college and after.  Came to the conclusion that it's great provided you fall into either of 2 categories:  a) a nerd -which I was- that's able to invest an inordinate amount of time in compiling, maintaining and running a system + getting third party stuff to run or b) someone like my mother who just surfs the net, types a mail and never ever installs anything.  At the time my favorite distro was Gentoo Linux, custom compiled.  booted like a racer on nitro but was the same pain in the b*tt to maintain.  My mother still runs Mandriva; I have remote admin access and update her system without her even knowing, she never had a virus nor intrusion in years.  
  
 Apple is imo still the next best thing even though it has to be their way or the highway.  Tried Windows 8 for a while but ran away screaming.


----------



## erdawe

cripple1 said:


> I had problems getting it going on Yosemite as well. Darin gave me these instructions and they worked perfectly. Took all of 2 minutes before I got it up and running using Yosemite.
> 
> 
> I have briefly tested Yosemite beta, but have not tested the release version yet.
> ...


 

 Wow, such a great response! I will try this tonight. I'll likely report back tomorrow morning. I've saved this to my to do list. I'm not at that computer currently.


----------



## cripple1

erdawe said:


> Wow, such a great response! I will try this tonight. I'll likely report back tomorrow morning. I've saved this to my to do list. I'm not at that computer currently.


 
 Hope it helps!


----------



## darinf

erdawe said:


> Ok well now that the ban is lifted, yes it was Massdrop...
> 
> I tried a few weeks ago to get this up and going on Yosemite. I upgraded to Yosemite before purchasing this product and found issues with my trial software getting permission to overtake the audio driver. I cannot undo the Yosemite upgrade.
> I was directed to a series of Terminal foo I had to do, which I'm no terminal wiz. I'm very eager to get this running on mac once Apples gives this software their rubber stamp. Right now I have it removed mostly from applications as I could not get it to go on my Yosemite upgrades (again upgrade before I owned this product).


 
  
  


cripple1 said:


> I had problems getting it going on Yosemite as well. Darin gave me these instructions and they worked perfectly. Took all of 2 minutes before I got it up and running using Yosemite.
> 
> 
> I have briefly tested Yosemite beta, but have not tested the release version yet.
> ...


 
  
  


xenophon said:


> I've been running running OOYH on Yosemite 10.10.1 for several weeks, no issues at all.  You just have to authorise the unsigned software during installation.  I've been running Linux/Unix for years while I was in college and after.  Came to the conclusion that it's great provided you fall into either of 2 categories:  a) a nerd -which I was- that's able to invest an inordinate amount of time in compiling, maintaining and running a system + getting third party stuff to run or b) someone like my mother who just surfs the net, types a mail and never ever installs anything.  At the time my favorite distro was Gentoo Linux, custom compiled.  booted like a racer on nitro but was the same pain in the b*tt to maintain.  My mother still runs Mandriva; I have remote admin access and update her system without her even knowing, she never had a virus nor intrusion in years.
> 
> Apple is imo still the next best thing even though it has to be their way or the highway.  Tried Windows 8 for a while but ran away screaming.


 
 Thanks for chiming in everyone.
  
 FYI, the latest version of Out Of Your Head for Mac OS X is compatible with Yosemite now. There should no longer be any need to do any of those terminal commands or disable driver signing, etc.  (I FINALLY got approved by Apple after being ignored, I found one of my clients that works for Apple. She was able to find the right person that could help me get approved.)
  
 Anyway, please download the latest trial version of Out Of Your Head for Mac from our website and it should install without any issue on Yosemite. (fingers crossed!)
  
 Of course let me know if you have any problems getting it installed and running.
  
 -Darin


----------



## MichaelJames99

darinf said:


> I am not 100% sure I understand your question, but I will take a shot and guess at what you're asking...
> 
> I think you're asking how can you get the audio from your preamp/processor to be processed by Out Of Your Head and then to your headphones like this:
> 
> ...


 

 Darin,
 This is exactly what I was trying to ask.  Can you or someone else provide step by step instructions on how to get into the Netflix menus (or hidden menus) in order to change the audio sync adjustments in Windows 8.1?  Or step by step instructions on how to setup Netflix to run thru JRiver or preferably VLC?
  
 I have been looking everywhere and can't find the answer....


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> Darin,
> This is exactly what I was trying to ask.  Can you or someone else provide step by step instructions on how to get into the Netflix menus (or hidden menus) in order to change the audio sync adjustments in Windows 8.1?  Or step by step instructions on how to setup Netflix to run thru JRiver or preferably VLC?
> 
> I have been looking everywhere and can't find the answer....


 
 See an earlier post in this thread about Netflix:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/210#post_10883695
  
 Unfortunately, the Windows 8 Metro version of the Netflix player does not have audio sync adjustments as far as I know, but in a browser, you can adjust the audio sync in Netflix.


----------



## MichaelJames99

OK sounds like Metro has not changed.  How do you run Netflix thru JRiver or VLC?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> OK sounds like Metro has not changed.  How do you run Netflix thru JRiver or VLC?


 
 AFAIK, VLC does not support Netflix.
  
 JRiver Media Center used to support Netflix natively, but apparently there is a problem with the latest version:
 http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62431.0
  
 But you can open the Netflix website from within JRiver:
  
 In JRiver, in the left column, under "Video", right click on "Connected Media" and create a new webpage by selecting "Add Website..." and add netflix.com.
  
 I have not tested this 100% to see if the audio from the Netflix website gets processed through JRiver's audio/video settings though. (I don't think it works that way.) But to change the audio sync, you can still use the "shift-alt-click" menu trick and adjust the audio sync within the Netflix player. It's the same as watching Netflix in a browser.


----------



## MichaelJames99

So I followed those instructions....  Netflix wont o into HD mode  and it studders constantly.  Not really watchable.  I was able to pull up the menu you mentioned but because the video is so bad, decided not to move forward.
  
 Any luck building in this feature to your software? (lip sync)


----------



## erdawe

darinf said:


> Thanks for chiming in everyone.
> 
> FYI, the latest version of Out Of Your Head for Mac OS X is compatible with Yosemite now. There should no longer be any need to do any of those terminal commands or disable driver signing, etc.  (I FINALLY got approved by Apple after being ignored, I found one of my clients that works for Apple. She was able to find the right person that could help me get approved.)
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Well Yosemite Sam bless his soul, it dubbarn works!

 A clean install when I finally tried a fresh install this morning, and here I was getting all prepped to get over my terminal fears beforehand.


----------



## mkeroppi

darinf said:


> Hmm... The output level is lower when going through Out Of Your Head. So your volume level setting may have to be higher than you're used to.
> 
> Other than that, the amount of bass and mids is dependent on the speakers you are listening to. Speakers like the Quads don't have a lot of bass.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm listening through the Ety ER-4B. I actually found the Quad to have the best deep bass (sounds like a good club or concert system). But the mids and the highs especially lack clarify (perhaps due to the high reverb of the room), as compared to Isone. In fact, none of the speakers can compare to the clarity of Isone (but only the Quad undebatably beat Isone in terms of the quality of the deep bass).
  
 I'm not sure I'm doing something wrong or how to fix it, but I would love to get better clarity for the mids and the highs with OOYH.


----------



## olegausany

Which headphones do you have?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> So I followed those instructions....  Netflix wont o into HD mode  and it studders constantly.  Not really watchable.  I was able to pull up the menu you mentioned but because the video is so bad, decided not to move forward.
> 
> Any luck building in this feature to your software? (lip sync)


 
 Does Netflix playback in HD when Out Of Your Head is not running? If not, then there's some issue with the Netflix player, or CPU/video card performance problems.
  
 If Netflix plays fine without Out Of Your Head running, then it's most likely an issue with the CPU performance. One thing to check is that your CPU settings in the Windows "Power" control panel. If your CPU is set to less than 100% either on battery or plugged in, then Out Of Your Head may not playback smoothly especially on an older or slower CPU.
  
 I also noticed that you may not have the latest version of Out Of Your Head installed. Please uninstall the current version and download the latest version from our website.
  
 Since Out Of Your Head does not do anything with video (we don't receive the video data), there is no way for Out Of Your Head to adjust the audio sync. Syncing the audio requires delaying the video, so it can only be done with a video application. We are still working on a low latency version of Out Of Your Head which may not need any audio sync adjustments.


----------



## darinf

mkeroppi said:


> I'm listening through the Ety ER-4B. I actually found the Quad to have the best deep bass (sounds like a good club or concert system). But the mids and the highs especially lack clarify (perhaps due to the high reverb of the room), as compared to Isone. In fact, none of the speakers can compare to the clarity of Isone (but only the Quad undebatably beat Isone in terms of the quality of the deep bass).
> 
> I'm not sure I'm doing something wrong or how to fix it, but I would love to get better clarity for the mids and the highs with OOYH.


 
 Are you using the Mac or Windows version? I n either case, please make sure you are using the latest version of Out Of Your Head from our website. There was an issue with earlier Windows versions of Out Of Your Head that could get into a state where the sound was not right at all. It had to do with switching presets somewhat rapidly. Once in the error state, the sound will stay sounding pretty bad until Out Of Your Head was quit and restarted. The latest version should fix that problem.
  
 Otherwise, I would also double check that NO other audio processing is enabled. All DSP or plugins should be disabled in your media players until you are sure you're getting the right sound. Then you can enable your plugins and DSP one thing at a time to make sure it's not adversely affecting the sound from Out Of Your Head. (When people are using something like Isone, then you really want to make sure it's completely disabled before enabling Out Of Your Head.) Also there can be audio enhancement software that comes installed and enabled by default with many built-in or third party audio cards or professional audio software.
  
 You can also compare your results with the sound of our pre-rendered files on our website. (But make sure Out Of Your Head is disabled when listening to the pre-rendered files!)


----------



## mkeroppi

Windows. I've tried the demo


darinf said:


> Are you using the Mac or Windows version? I n either case, please make sure you are using the latest version of Out Of Your Head from our website. There was an issue with earlier Windows versions of Out Of Your Head that could get into a state where the sound was not right at all. It had to do with switching presets somewhat rapidly. Once in the error state, the sound will stay sounding pretty bad until Out Of Your Head was quit and restarted. The latest version should fix that problem.
> 
> Otherwise, I would also double check that NO other audio processing is enabled. All DSP or plugins should be disabled in your media players until you are sure you're getting the right sound. Then you can enable your plugins and DSP one thing at a time to make sure it's not adversely affecting the sound from Out Of Your Head. (When people are using something like Isone, then you really want to make sure it's completely disabled before enabling Out Of Your Head.) Also there can be audio enhancement software that comes installed and enabled by default with many built-in or third party audio cards or professional audio software.
> 
> You can also compare your results with the sound of our pre-rendered files on our website. (But make sure Out Of Your Head is disabled when listening to the pre-rendered files!)


 

 Windows.
  
 I've tried the demo, they all sound right (the surround positioning is dead on, even when I am lying down; I had used Dolby Headphone before and the rear channels left and right are swapped for me). But I don't think any of the rooms beat Isone in terms of clarity (but some does sound roomier than Isone). This is fine for movie watching but not for critical listening.
  
 What I'm looking for is the deep bass extension of the Quad ESL (Which Quad did you use there? I didn't think the Quad were known for bass until perhaps the recent models). It is not the powerful bass of the other speakers sets (almost all clips when the kick drum comes on), but it is the bass extension that gets down low that I want.
  
 But the issue with the Quad (at least in the set at OOYH) seems to be the room reverb destroying clarity in the mids and seems to be absorbing the highs too much.


----------



## olegausany

If clipping then you need to reduce volume settings inside control panel, adjust both input, left side and output, right side 
@darin thanks for latest version, sounds much better plus fixed volume adjustment issue


----------



## MichaelJames99

So I was able to launch Netflix thru JRiver on the Windows 8.1 desktop and I changed from Power Saving to performance mode on the laptop.  Takes about 10 seconds and the video switches to HD.  Its still choppy.  I decided to run Netflix simultaneously thru IE and thru JRiver...  Processor never got above 20%.  Video was sometimes choppy but not horrible.
  
 The only remaining problem I have is Netlix wont give me the option to change from Stereo to 5.1 plus thru JRiver.  Its simply not listed there.
 The same laptop going into Metro mode on 8.1 does offer 5.1 plus..  Any idea what's happening here?


----------



## darinf

michaeljames99 said:


> So I was able to launch Netflix thru JRiver on the Windows 8.1 desktop and I changed from Power Saving to performance mode on the laptop.  Takes about 10 seconds and the video switches to HD.  Its still choppy.  I decided to run Netflix simultaneously thru IE and thru JRiver...  Processor never got above 20%.  Video was sometimes choppy but not horrible.
> 
> The only remaining problem I have is Netlix wont give me the option to change from Stereo to 5.1 plus thru JRiver.  Its simply not listed there.
> The same laptop going into Metro mode on 8.1 does offer 5.1 plus..  Any idea what's happening here?


 
 The Netflix player in a browser does not support 5.1 audio. You can only get two channel audio. It's frustrating that they do offer 5.1 using the Metro app but not in a browser. I am not sure why they won't do it.


----------



## Xenophon

Darin,  a small question:  do you have any additional info on the Ribbon speakers preset?  The explanation mentions that it's a full-range design that's still under development but i'm intrigued:  to my ears they have the hands down most detailed and refined midrange and treble of all the presets.  Bass takes the backseat (to my ears) and is probably underpowered but I don't mind -classical instrumental music mainly- as the level of detail and clarity the preset offers when paired with my HD-800 and quality source material is simply unbelievable.


----------



## darinf

xenophon said:


> Darin,  a small question:  do you have any additional info on the Ribbon speakers preset?  The explanation mentions that it's a full-range design that's still under development but i'm intrigued:  to my ears they have the hands down most detailed and refined midrange and treble of all the presets.  Bass takes the backseat (to my ears) and is probably underpowered but I don't mind -classical instrumental music mainly- as the level of detail and clarity the preset offers when paired with my HD-800 and quality source material is simply unbelievable.


 
 Hi @Xenophon
  
 The ribbon speaker preset in Out Of Your Head is not a commercially available product. A friend of mine who designs speakers (and headphone mods now), built those ribbon speakers as an experiment. He used relatively cheap full range ribbon drovers and mounted them to a board. Then using proprietary room measurement techniques and a custom DSP processor, he applied DSP correction to the audio sent to the speakers. This transformed the speakers from mediocre to incredible. He also played with adding a subwoofer and I believe the measurement I made also had the subwoofer running. He basically wanted to see how far DSP could be used to improve the sound of speakers.
  
 Unfortunately, the speakers were never meant to be a commercial product and they would also require the DSP processor to make them sound really good. 
  
 He no longer has the speakers setup and he may have recycled the parts for other speaker experiments. 
  
 But at least I captured their sound for anyone to enjoy virtually. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 -Darin


----------



## olegausany

So I'm using version 1.1j since Friday, wish I would know about it availability much earlier, and it sounds way way better than any previous version . I never heard HD800 having so deep punchy bass with so much body and I mean quality not just quantity. But sometimes when you start the first playback after you have your gear on, I'm turning my HA-1 off over night since stays hot all the time since it has Class A amp, so I have to switch between profiles a few times to make sure it sounds best. Also I think profile volume level is higher now compared to previous version


----------



## Xenophon

darinf said:


> Hi @Xenophon
> 
> The ribbon speaker preset in Out Of Your Head is not a commercially available product. A friend of mine who designs speakers (and headphone mods now), built those ribbon speakers as an experiment. He used relatively cheap full range ribbon drovers and mounted them to a board. Then using proprietary room measurement techniques and a custom DSP processor, he applied DSP correction to the audio sent to the speakers. This transformed the speakers from mediocre to incredible. He also played with adding a subwoofer and I believe the measurement I made also had the subwoofer running. He basically wanted to see how far DSP could be used to improve the sound of speakers.
> 
> ...


 

 Well, the designer was definitely on to something here  and thanks for including the recording.  I never really looked into speakers and know next to nothing about them. There's no point for me as no dedicated listening room, a wife who doesn't like classical, the volumes needed to properly enjoy the full dynamic range of classical music and an urban setting -house in the city center- with neighbours who presumably value peace and quiet make for an impossible combo.  
  
 Anyone into instrumental classical who likes a highly detailed sound and has good cans:  give this preset certainly a try if you have good recordings (poor material + neutral amp+ HD-800 + this setting= torture).


----------



## rdsu

Hi,

You could have best results if you do an ASIO Output to be used in foobar2000/JRiver?

Is there also a way to use OOYH with foobar2000/JRiver and JPlay, at the same time?

OOYH works on Windows Server 2012 R2?

Thanks


----------



## darinf

rdsu said:


> Hi,
> 
> You could have best results if you do an ASIO Output to be used in foobar2000/JRiver?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, we are considering doing an ASIO driver, but do not have anything currently.
  
 In theory Out Of Your Head will work with jPlay, but I have not tried it. You can set JPlay to output to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device. If it has problems, make sure you are sending 48kHz/24bit or 32bit audio to Out Of Your Head.
  
 I also have not tried Out Of Your Head on Windows Server. I don't see why it would not work.
  
 Sorry about not really having any answers for you, but please let us know if you get it to work or have any problems.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

rdsu said:


> Hi,
> 
> You could have best results if you do an ASIO Output to be used in foobar2000/JRiver?
> 
> ...


 
 I just tried to use the trial version of JPlay with Out Of Your Head. The problem is that in the JPlay settings, it only seems to allow Kernel Streaming output to Out Of Your Head. But Out Of Your Head will not work in Kernel Streaming mode. JPlay does show some devices available in WASAPI mode, but not Out Of Your Head for some reason.
  
 So unfortunately, it looks like JPlay is not compatible with Out Of Your Head. 
  
 (BTW, that's a pretty crazy warning message that pops up in JRiver when you try to output to the JPlay ASIO driver. But I guess I shouldn't open up that can of worms.)


----------



## SilentFrequency

I just tried some of the online demos on my iPhone 6 + and am really impressed! 

Can I get the full version on iPhone App Store?


----------



## darinf

silentfrequency said:


> I just tried some of the online demos on my iPhone 6 + and am really impressed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for listening to the online demos.
  
 Although we plan on releasing Out Of Your Head on iOS and Android someday, we currently don't have anything available for those platforms.


----------



## SilentFrequency

darinf said:


> Thanks for listening to the online demos.
> 
> Although we plan on releasing Out Of Your Head on iOS and Android someday, we currently don't have anything available for those platforms.




Seriously, the demos are amazing, but that's a shame there's no iPhone app for it right now but great to hear you plan on releasing one someday, I just hope it's someday soon!


----------



## rdsu

@darinf,

I use JRiver to manage my audio library, and then set JPlay ASIO Output on it.
This way I can't also use your OOYH, right? 

OOYH only works with 48kHz/24bit or 32bit? Will this be improved in the future?

Thanks for your support!


----------



## rdsu

darinf said:


> I just tried to use the trial version of JPlay with Out Of Your Head. The problem is that in the JPlay settings, it only seems to allow Kernel Streaming output to Out Of Your Head. But Out Of Your Head will not work in Kernel Streaming mode. JPlay does show some devices available in WASAPI mode, but not Out Of Your Head for some reason.
> 
> So unfortunately, it looks like JPlay is not compatible with Out Of Your Head.
> 
> (BTW, that's a pretty crazy warning message that pops up in JRiver when you try to output to the JPlay ASIO driver. But I guess I shouldn't open up that can of worms.)



 

I will see that issue with JPlay support!

About the JRiver warning, that is pure nonsense from JRiver, and from v20.0.44 they removed JPlay ASIO Output completely... 
Hope they won't do the same with your program in the future...


----------



## darinf

rdsu said:


> @darinf,
> 
> I use JRiver to manage my audio library, and then set JPlay ASIO Output on it.
> This way I can't also use your OOYH, right?
> ...


 
 It appears so that you cannot use JPlay and Out Of Your Head at the same time. However you can switch back and forth in the JRiver Audio settings when you are using Out Of Your Head.
  
 We are testing higher bit rate processing up to 192kHz sampling rate, but that takes a lot of CPU power to do 8 channels of 192kHz audio. I think maybe it would make more sense to only support 2 channel audio at 192kHz.
  


rdsu said:


> darinf said:
> 
> 
> > I just tried to use the trial version of JPlay with Out Of Your Head. The problem is that in the JPlay settings, it only seems to allow Kernel Streaming output to Out Of Your Head. But Out Of Your Head will not work in Kernel Streaming mode. JPlay does show some devices available in WASAPI mode, but not Out Of Your Head for some reason.
> ...


 
 I didn't know about removing JPlay in the later versions.
  
 They couldn't remove Out Of Your Head support completely since Out Of Your Head will work with Direct Sound if necessary.


----------



## rdsu

Josef, from JPlay, reply this: http://jplay.eu/forum/jplay/jplay-with-out-of-your-head/#p24724



> hi rdsu – have not yet heard of Out Of Your Head but if it does not support KS or WASAPI (has to be event mode) then it just won't work
> But, reading the FAQ page maybe there is an alternative: first output to OOH and if I read FAQ correctly you can then specify Output Device in OOH Control Panel: Does JPLAY show up there? (It should if OOH supports ASIO).
> If OOH does _not_ support ASIO then try ASIOBridge: Set Hi-Fi Cable(http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm) as Output Device and in ASIOBridge set JPLAY Driver as ASIO output….
> Curious to hear if it works




My Laptop audio card only support DirectSound, and my AudioPC has Windows Server 2012 Core Edition, which doesn't support WASAPI...
I need to convert it to GUI, install OOYH, and then try all the process...

On my Laptop I have the WASAPI output of OOYH! 

If you can try it soon, let me know if it works for you... 

Thanks for your support!


----------



## darinf

rdsu said:


> Josef, from JPlay, reply this: http://jplay.eu/forum/jplay/jplay-with-out-of-your-head/#p24724
> My Laptop audio card only support DirectSound, and my AudioPC has Windows Server 2012 Core Edition, which doesn't support WASAPI...
> I need to convert it to GUI, install OOYH, and then try all the process...
> 
> ...


 
 I tried it and got it working. Not sure if I can hear a difference other than the level seems lower for some reason.
  
 So here's how I configured it:
  
 Install ASIO Bridge.
  
 JRiver Media Center 20 --> Direct Sound or WASAPI (OOYH) --> Set Out Of Your Head as your default audio playback device --> in Out Of Your Head select "HiFi Cable" as your output device --> Run ASIO Bridge, select JPLAY driver as the ASIO audio device --> In JPLAY Settings, select your DAC.
  
 I think it works best if you select WASAPI (OOYH) and then make sure in the JRiver DSP settings, you set all audio to be converted to 48kHz.
  
 -Darin


----------



## rdsu

Thanks Darin!

Yes, a lot of programs to make it happen... 

I have to try it soon...

Strange that you don't have he WASAPI OOYH Output in JPlay...

Regards


----------



## edwardsean

Quick tip for those who are having trouble "getting the effect" of OOYH and find the sound "spacey" or "hollow." In my opinion, there is a psychoacoustic burn in that is necessary. First time I went scuba diving my brain couldn't get over the fact that I could breath air underwater. I had to trick my mind to adjust. In the same way you do have to allow your mind to hear speakers that aren't there in the "airless" chamber within your headphones.
  
 So you might want to give this a try. After you're done switching back and forth between direct sound and OOYH, leave it alone for a while. When you come back turn off the lights. I know... but, in the dark your mind is more susceptible to the suggestion that sound really is coming from somewhere from the space "out there." Make sure you don't listen to direct sound at all, and let the first thing you hear come through OOYH. 
  
 I can say with full confidence as you upgrade your equipment OOYH scales up right along to the point where all the technology  vanishes. With an open mind and the right equipment, OOYH is able to get you beyond just hearing top-tier speaker systems. It's able to recreate the reason why people spend tens of thousands on in the first place. It connects you to the experience of music in a way that only great systems can.  OOYH has become just as legitimate and indispensable to me as any world class DAC or headphone to achieving what we are all after in the end: music.


----------



## SavantGarde

darinf said:


> I think overall the bass energy may be proportionally less than what you get with direct sound to your headphones.


 
 Actually my experience is quite the opposite: most, if not all, of the presets seem to exaggerate bass response. With bass-heavy tracks, OOYH actually makes my AKG K1000:s as well as my Beyerdynamic DT 880:s rattle! After noticing this effect I remembered the TB Isone manual mentioning that Isone's algorithm somewhat exaggerates bass response, so I have come to think that maybe the algorithm used by OOYH does this to. TB Isone offers an optional highpass filter to counteract this effect, so maybe OOYH needs one to? However, I think OOYH exaggerates bass much more than TB Isone does.
  
 I use the OS X version, by the way. Mostly with Audirvana Plus 2 and XBMC Gotham.


----------



## darinf

A few people have contacted us lately about recording the processed audio output from Out Of Your Head for use on portable devices, etc.
  
 I posted instructions for Windows users earlier in this thread in this post:
post #36
  
 But for Mac users, here's the instructions to do the same using Audacity and SoundFlower.
  

Download and install Soundflower from here: Download Soundflower (you may have to restart after installation.)
Download and install Audacity for Mac: Download Audacity 2.0.6 for Mac OS X 10.4 to 10.9.x
Open your favorite media player app
Launch Out Of Your Head
Make sure Out Of Your Head is working with your media player app. Test using your headphones.
In the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, select "Soundflower (2CH)" as your output device.
Launch Audacity
In Audacity select "Soundflower(2CH)" as your *input* source. (You can select the input device from the drop down menu next to the microphone icon on the top toolbar in Audacity.)
Now, start recording in Audacity and very quickly start your music playing in your media player app.
You should see the audio being recorded in Audacity.
You can stop the recording in Audacity when the audio is done recording.
Then you can save the recording as an audio file.
  
 So here's a quick diagram of the signal path:
  
 Audio Player app --> Out Of Your Head --> Soundflower (2CH) --> Audacity --> record audio --> save recording as an audio file
  
 You now have an audio file that is the processed audio from Out Of Your Head. When playing back the file to test, make sure you exit Out Of Your Head or put Out Of Your Head in Bypass mode so you don't hear the processed audio file processed a 2nd time.


----------



## Criss969

Hmm.. gave it a try and it's definitely cool. Wish I had the cash :/


----------



## Primare Knob

Hi,

I just jumped into this thread so I haven't read most of it, but good work! This is something that I gonna try as soon as I have a proper headphone setup. Would it be possible to build a JRiver plugin, and let JRiver work out the drivers. It seems there is a lot of channeling going on. The other thing that I was wondering, if it would be possible to create a convolution filter from your algorithm and use this inside JRiver. A paid plugin within JRiver would be my preferred option.

The biggest reason for me not going into headphones is the small musical display, and because I am a big Home Theatre fan with surround and everything, but your software seems just the thing that I am after.


----------



## olegausany

I really really happy with Out of my head but prefer to use Foobar2000 and Kodi (formerly XMBC) over J River MC20


----------



## Primare Knob

olegausany said:


> I really really happy with Out of my head but prefer to use Foobar2000 and Kodi (formerly XMBC) over J River MC20




I am not to happy about JRiver myself, but it is the only program for me which is able to do all that I want in a single program.


----------



## Primare Knob

darinf said:


> I tried it and got it working. Not sure if I can hear a difference other than the level seems lower for some reason.
> 
> So here's how I configured it:
> 
> ...




You probably can use WASAPI but you will likely have to activate or reinstall the Windows Audio Management feature and it's services. I have been down that path and got Kernel Streaming working in Core mode, but I never went any further into activating WASAPI since I never used it.


----------



## olegausany

primare knob said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > I really really happy with Out of my head but prefer to use Foobar2000 and Kodi (formerly XMBC) over J River MC20
> ...



Unfortunately not for me. Can't play SACD ISOs (they play fine with Foobar2000) plus I don't like the sound in wasapi mode, there are few others things but I can live with them


----------



## hekeli

Who cares about the player, obviously a VST plugin etc would be best. For example everything this supports: http://convolver.sourceforge.net/ - use it anywhere you want.


----------



## Maelob

Apologize if I am repeating somebody's question, but I am interested in getting the program for my new MAC MINI. If I get a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker package, can I use the same package to listen in stereo mode? Or do i need get an additional 2.0 speaker package. Thanks for your help.


----------



## olegausany

You can without problems since output is stereo


----------



## sling5s

Haven't read the whole thread but I get no sound out of my Mac.  Using Amarra with iTunes in my Mac.  Using Bifrost Uber as Dac. Even with Amarra turned off I get no sound.  Is there something else that needs to be done with Macs/iTunes?


----------



## Primare Knob

maelob said:


> Apologize if I am repeating somebody's question, but I am interested in getting the program for my new MAC MINI. If I get a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker package, can I use the same package to listen in stereo mode? Or do i need get an additional 2.0 speaker package. Thanks for your help.




Not sure what you are trying here, but this software is specifically designed for headphones, and won't give the same result on speakers.


----------



## edwardsean

The 5.1, 7.1 presets work with multichannel 5.1, 7.1 audio for movies--and--2.0 L/R stereo for music. Channels 1 and 2 are mapped to standard Left and Right channels, the remaining channels for surround sound just don't get used when playing stereo music. Get the speaker package you like and it will work seamlessly for music and movies. It will know to decode a multichannel mix and also to send a standard stereo signal to left and right channels. 
  
 As PrimareKnob mentioned, this is all assuming use on headphones.


----------



## Maelob

cool thanks for the answer- i just wanted to make sure that stereo sources remain stereo.


----------



## 552388

Tried the demo version, but seems unreal to me, a bit disappointed.


----------



## olegausany

552388 said:


> Tried the demo version, but seems unreal to me, a bit disappointed.



Which player and what mode you were using?


----------



## edwardsean

552388 said:


> Tried the demo version, but seems unreal to me, a bit disappointed.


 

 (Disclaimer: I am an OOYH apologist. I have no formal tie to Fong Audio.)
  
 For OOYH to be effective, it may be helpful to keep some things in mind:
  
 1) Your system constrains SQ. Good news: OOYH will scale with you as you upgrade your hardware/ Bad news: OOYH will not magically turn an entry level system into a $50,000 Magico spkr. + amp system. 
  
 2) System synergy is key (and by system I mean all your hardware including the shape of your head and ears). The sampled room/speakers/head and your system/HRTF all have to come together to successfully create the OOYH effect. This is why so many presets are available to audition. Some presets sound--totally--"unreal to me" too in my system. Other presets, are so convincing, so (and I hate myself for using this word) "delectable" I would have to actually spend $50,000 to get this level of sound.
  
 3) Psychoacoustics (AIYH): It's "All In Your Head." You've got to give yourself the time and openness of mind to reorient yourself to a radically different sonic presentation. Remember when you got that great new set of phones and it sounded all wrong,  (e.g.,) thin with recessed mids. Then you "got it." These phones have a bigger soundstage, and it then sounded so right. The mental jump is bigger than that. Conceptually, you are going from headphones to floor standing speakers.
  
 Just wanted to share, because in this never-ending upgrade path we're all on, I finally reached a destination point and OOYH is a big part of that for me.


----------



## Maelob

what do u recommend for speaker selection? for realistic movie watching


----------



## edwardsean

maelob said:


> what do u recommend for speaker selection? for realistic movie watching


 
  
 I think it really does depend on your system. Personally, for movies, I started out with "Home Theater" and "Egyptian Theater" because they were captured for movie playback. The thing is they don't sound great in my system. I understand what 55238 is saying, they sound artificial. I could get away with it for watching movies, but I would never use it for listening to music or for a sense of realism. So, I tried using the presets that work for 2.0 music also for 5.1 movies. (Most of them are already configured as full 7.1 multichannel systems.) Voila! Natural, effortless, accurate, gorgeous surround emulation. 
  
 So, honestly, Darin would know better, but my strategy has been to get the 2.0 stereo right and then the 5.1 just works. For my hardware (HD800, Hugo, etc.) and wetware (i.e., head and ear morphology) the "PBN Sammy" has to die for sensuous, vivid articulation. If I'm going to watch an intimate "talker" movie that fits. For grand, sweeping cinema, the "Cello Spkr" preset has epic scale and thunderous bottom end (again, on my system). 
  
 But, here's the genius of OOYH. I don't have to choose which real-world system to purchase and install, which room to acoustically treat, which lung to sell.... A new virtual screening room is a few clicks away. I know it's not quite the same, and I really don't mean to preach, but it is pretty awesome.


----------



## Maelob

Thanks for the inputs, so far i am playing with it and like the Acoustic Zen and the AIX studio for movies.  However I dont know if I am doing something wrong I set up the midi output like the pamphlet saids but when I play the file I see only the left and right channels moving.  So not sure if I am doing something wrong. I rented the movie via Itunes HD so think it supposed to be DD multi channel.


----------



## olegausany

What Dac are you using? Maybe it doesn't support multi channel


----------



## Maelob

i believe the multi channel conversion occurs at the ooyh- a milti channel dac is not a requirment- nowhere in the documentation mentions anything about multi channel dac. if thats the case it needs to be clear in the instructions.


----------



## olegausany

I think so too. I use the program for the music only which is stereo


----------



## Maelob

I will email him to see if i am doing something wrong since I just wanted mostly for movies.


----------



## darinf

Hi everyone,
  
 Sorry I've been away from Head-Fi for a while during the holidays.
  
 Quote:


maelob said:


> Thanks for the inputs, so far i am playing with it and like the Acoustic Zen and the AIX studio for movies.  However I dont know if I am doing something wrong I set up the midi output like the pamphlet saids but when I play the file I see only the left and right channels moving.  So not sure if I am doing something wrong. I rented the movie via Itunes HD so think it supposed to be DD multi channel.


 
  
 AFAIK, iTunes does not decode Dolby Digital source files to 5.1 channel audio from downloaded iTunes content. I have been able to play 5.1 files ripped from DVD's and played in iTunes. If you try to play any HD trailers in iTunes, they will all play back with only 2 channel audio. I may be wrong because I don't use iTunes. So please correct me if I am wrong.
  
 The main problem is that even if iTunes can play back and decode 5.1 audio, it does not have any audio sync adjustments so your audio will always be out of sync for videos. We recommend using any other app that has audio sync adjustments.
  


maelob said:


> i believe the multi channel conversion occurs at the ooyh- a milti channel dac is not a requirment- nowhere in the documentation mentions anything about multi channel dac. if thats the case it needs to be clear in the instructions.


 
 Out Of Your Head takes multi channel audio and "converts" it to binaural like audio which is two channels. The sound you hear is as if you are in a room listening to 2, 5.1, or 7.1 speakers, but the actual sound output from Out Of Your Head is always two channel.
  
 You do not need a multi-channel DAC or an outboard decoder, etc. All you need is any headphones and any DAC (even the built-in DAC on your computer).
  
 Out Of Your Head always outputs two channels of audio intended for your left ear and right ear. But the sound you "hear" is the sound of either 2, 6, or 8 speakers.
  
 I hope that clarifies things for everyone.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Maelob

Darin thanks, for the clarification.


----------



## sling5s

I could not get it to work on my Mac with Yosemite.  I deleted it but it still shows on my Amarra setting.


----------



## darinf

sling5s said:


> I could not get it to work on my Mac with Yosemite.  I deleted it but it still shows on my Amarra setting.


 
 What problems were you having when you had it installed? It's not exactly just plug and play since you usually have to configure your media player app to send audio to the Out Of Your Head audio device. Also, make sure you have the latest version downloaded. Earlier versions had problems with driver signing (security) for the Out Of Your Head driver.
  
 To uninstall, you have to use the Out Of Your Head uninstaller. You cannot just delete the app in the Applications folder. There are actually three components that get installed. One of which is an audio driver that must be removed by using the uninstaller. 
  
 The uninstaller is in the .dmg file you downloaded. Just open the .dmg file and you can double click on the uninstaller.


----------



## SavantGarde

darinf said:


> Out Of Your Head is software only, so there is no way to do any measurements with microphones, etc. So, the short answer is, no, Out Of Your Head does not do any EQ. However, if you have us do custom measurements, then we can incorporate the headphone EQ measurements into a custom preset for your ears and your headphones. Or for anyone who has Realiser measurements, we can use those to incorporate the headphone EQ into a custom Out Of Your Head preset.


 
 OK, then. I thought that maybe OOYH corrected for a typical/average headphones-pinna-ear-canal transfer function.


----------



## hoth

Wow. I am just blown away by OOYH. I have been into audio for a while now but I have never experienced a surround effect so immersive and one that feels so natural to real life. I'll write more of a review with different equipment of mine in case it would help somebody. But right now I'm getting lost in music in a way I have not before.


----------



## dmbr

Would someone who has tried both OOYH and the Dolby Headphone Config in Foobar http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss please tell me how the two compare?

Thanks.


----------



## Brooko

dmbr said:


> Would someone who has tried both OOYH and the Dolby Headphone Config in Foobar http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss please tell me how the two compare?
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 The dolby headphone config is pretty good (and cheap) - and it does give the impression of widening the sound stage and giving a 3D like presentation.  But that is as far as it goes for me.  I still use it sometimes at work.
  
 OOYH though actually sounds like a real room to me (if you get the right preset to suit your preferences).  It is spookily real sounding with a lot of my music, and totally imersive for movies.
  
 Big difference for me - dolby gives you a nice impression - but still sounds like a dsp.  OOYH sounds like the real thing.
  
 I have no regrets at all purchasing it.


----------



## olegausany

brooko said:


> dmbr said:
> 
> 
> > Would someone who has tried both OOYH and the Dolby Headphone Config in Foobar http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss please tell me how the two compare?
> ...



+1 cause it sounds more holographic and you can hear room's ambience where the speakers you chose are installed


----------



## dmbr

Just tried the trial...I prefer DH; more distinct sound placement.

Thanks for your reply, Oleg.


----------



## Brooko

dmbr said:


> Just tried the trial...I prefer DH; more distinct sound placement.
> 
> Thanks for your reply, Oleg.


 
  
 If you give it a couple of days rather than a short listen, you might change your mind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I know I did. 
  
 But if you prefer dolby-hph, it is still a pretty good alternative.  I continue to use both - but my pref is definitely OOYH.


----------



## olegausany

dmbr said:


> Just tried the trial...I prefer DH; more distinct sound placement.
> 
> Thanks for your reply, Oleg.



What player you tried it with?


----------



## olegausany

Also make sure you try different presets before making decisions


----------



## dmbr

I tried it with foobar...could only get DS to work, WASAPI gave an unrecoverable playback error. JRiver didn't detect the virtual device at all :/

Sampled every preset. 

I did prefer it to stereo, and it sounds less "sterile", but the sounds just didn't sound like they were coming from distinct channels; the directionality was blurred, less distinct.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> I tried it with foobar...could only get DS to work, WASAPI gave an unrecoverable playback error. JRiver didn't detect the virtual device at all :/
> 
> Sampled every preset.
> 
> I did prefer it to stereo, and it sounds less "sterile", but the sounds just didn't sound like they were coming from distinct channels; the directionality was blurred, less distinct.


 
 DS should work with just about any player including JRiver. I use JRiver for all my demo systems at meets, etc. Not sure why Out Of Your Head would not show up in JRiver. Could be an installation issue.
  
 With any player using WASAPI,  you have to make sure you are converting all sample rates to 48kHz/24bit or 23bit before sending the audio to Out Of Your Head. If you don't do any sample rate conversion, Out Of Your Head will not work with any sample rates other than 48kHz/24bit or 32bit.
  
 That's why I like JRiver since it will do the sample rate conversion in real-time for WASAPI and it also plays video/surround movies.


----------



## dmbr

I did try re sampling to 48, but to avail


----------



## olegausany

dmbr said:


> I tried it with foobar...could only get DS to work, WASAPI gave an unrecoverable playback error. JRiver didn't detect the virtual device at all :/
> 
> Sampled every preset.
> 
> I did prefer it to stereo, and it sounds less "sterile", but the sounds just didn't sound like they were coming from distinct channels; the directionality was blurred, less distinct.



I would recommend to use SoX resampler with foobar2000 also you should move slider in settings all the way to the right


----------



## dmbr

darinf said:


> DS should work with just about any player including JRiver. I use JRiver for all my demo systems at meets, etc. Not sure why Out Of Your Head would not show up in JRiver. Could be an installation issue.
> 
> With any player using WASAPI,  you have to make sure you are converting all sample rates to 48kHz/24bit or 23bit before sending the audio to Out Of Your Head. If you don't do any sample rate conversion, Out Of Your Head will not work with any sample rates other than 48kHz/24bit or 32bit.
> 
> That's why I like JRiver since it will do the sample rate conversion in real-time for WASAPI and it also plays video/surround movies.


 odd that foobar would detect it but not jriver, right?


----------



## dmbr

olegausany said:


> I would recommend to use SoX resampler with foobar2000 also you should move slider in settings all the way to the right


 Interesting, I've had 95% recommended in the past...no clue why though. Thanks


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> I did try re sampling to 48, but to avail


 
  
 I forgot, you must also set the number of channels to 7.1 in JRiver DSP settings. Here's the way I have it set to use Out Of Your Head WASAPI in JRiver:
  

  


dmbr said:


> odd that foobar would detect it but not jriver, right?


 
 Yes, that is strange. I have not seen that before. In JRiver, to use DS, you just set JRiver's Audio Device set to "Default Audio Device [Direct Sound]". Then in the Windows/Sound Control Panel/Playback Device" set the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device to the Default device.
  
 Using Direct Sound in JRiver will not show Out Of Your Head in JRiver. You set the default device in the Windows Sound Control Panel.


----------



## hoth

Thanks Darin for answering my questions before purchase and for being so available on this forum.  I of course have some niggles with the product and provide a few caveats, but overall OOYH is just a great experience.  My niggles would be as follows:
  
 - Need a true bypass (i.e., would like that clicking bypass does not just stop the processing but also removes all of the latency)
 - On my portable system I get a latency of about 1,150ms.  The system is a Surface 2 pro.  Would be great if that could be decreased somehow. 
 - EQ in the control panel for fine tuning as the bass (more than other frequencies) sometimes needs shaping
 - The best preset is often not dependent on your system but rather on the material.  Therefore, you can't just buy one preset that you love and leave it always on.  As the material changes, you may need a new preset which will cost you another $25.  Perhaps there could be a way to package all presets together, or at least three or four to give you give coverage for rock/folk/classical/EDM.
 - Jumping from preset to preset directly one after the other can mess up the experience.  I recommend giving your ears a slight break between presets to remove any coloring in your listening from the prior preset.  Kind of like eating sorbet in between courses to clean the pallet.  
 - Try to listen a little more holistically rather than focusing on every element on its own, i.e, relax and enjoy.  I find the effect to be the most real in that way.   
  
 I am still contemplating doing a more thorough write-up in more detail providing my experience on various setups including open and closed headphones as well as different levels of headphones.  I also have done a lot of thinking about whether I would consider OOYH "audiophile" or not and how I would characterize and categorize the coloring that OOYH introduces into the audio.  Those though are more theoretical and likely people would be most interested in practical considerations.  I'll just say that - with tweaking such as controlling sometimes boomy bass and re-balancing treble a bit - OOYH provides an authentic and very enjoyable experience on almost all levels and types of equipment.   
  
 For now I am just trying to enjoy the ride and keeping myself from buying anymore speaker sets!


----------



## olegausany

hoth said:


> Thanks Darin for answering my questions before purchase and for being so available on this forum.  I of course have some niggles with the product and provide a few caveats, but overall OOYH is just a great experience.  My niggles would be as follows:
> 
> - Need a true bypass (i.e., would like that clicking bypass does not just stop the processing but also removes all of the latency)
> - On my portable system I get a latency of about 1,150ms.  The system is a Surface 2 pro.  Would be great if that could be decreased somehow.
> ...



This program is intended to be used with computer not with the tablet pretending to be computer so you should be lucky it even works. 
Before for me was exactly like you preset in use was depending on the recording played but now, after I uninstalled J River MC20 I just use Volti preset. Have no idea why is that right now. Also sometimes program gets stuck so all presets sound same while I always wait at least 30 seconds before switching to different preset and always single click on preset I want inside control panel window


----------



## darinf

hoth said:


> Thanks Darin for answering my questions before purchase and for being so available on this forum.  I of course have some niggles with the product and provide a few caveats, but overall OOYH is just a great experience.  My niggles would be as follows:
> 
> - Need a true bypass (i.e., would like that clicking bypass does not just stop the processing but also removes all of the latency)
> - On my portable system I get a latency of about 1,150ms.  The system is a Surface 2 pro.  Would be great if that could be decreased somehow.
> ...


 
 Thanks for posting your feedback and impressions.
  
 Part of the reason why the bypass mode still has the latency is to make it easier to compare processed vs. bypass. If bypass removed the latency then the sound would be out of sync to the video, if you are watching a video. If you want a full bypass, you can either switch output devices in your media player app or exit Out Of Your Head from the Out Of Your Head system tray menu.
  
 We are working on lowering the latency in future versions. The Mac version is newer and is down to about 250ms on most Macs. We are hoping to get much lower latency than that eventually.
  
 We are also looking at incorporating an EQ into the Out Of Your Head software. But EQ in your media player app should also work for now.
  
 We do offer a discounted rate to purchase all the presets. You get a 30% discount if you buy all 23 presets, which works out to $475.30 instead of $679.
  
 Thanks again for taking the time to post.


----------



## darinf

olegausany said:


> This program is intended to be used with computer not with the tablet pretending to be computer so you should be lucky it even works.
> Before for me was exactly like you preset in use was depending on the recording played but now, after I uninstalled J River MC20 I just use Volti preset. Have no idea why is that right now. Also sometimes program gets stuck so all presets sound same while I always wait at least 30 seconds before switching to different preset and always single click on preset I want inside control panel window


 
 Out Of Your Head is intended to be used on any computer that has enough processing power. Generally any computer using any processor faster than an Atom type processor will work. The form factor of the computer is not a factor. I use a Surface Pro as a demo system and it works great. It has an Intel i5 processor which is more than enough power to run Out Of Your Head. I imagine a Surface Pro 2 or 3 would work even better. I even use an old Core 2 Duo computer and it works fine too.
  
 I have no idea why uninstalling JRiver would affect the Out Of Your Head installation. The preset files are all stored in the Out Of Your Head install directory. You can check to see if the preset files are still there. If not, then you can just uninstall and reinstall Out Of Your Head. Out Of Your Head looks in the install directory and lists all the preset files it finds when Out Of Your Head is launched.


----------



## olegausany

darinf said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > This program is intended to be used with computer not with the tablet pretending to be computer so you should be lucky it even works.
> ...



The presets files are all here and are seen by the program and available. What I'm saying is that before I had to use different preset depending on the recording I'm playing but now I'm using Volti preset only. I don't know what exactly caused it to happen but I noticed it right after I uninstalled J River since it's trial was over. Now I got a way to remove hidden information about its trial time and after installation of the latest version, to see if I would be able finally play SACD ISOs, and found out that it sounds almost as good as with foobar2000 in wasapi mode but still I prefer to use Volti preset


----------



## edwardsean

> - The best preset is often not dependent on your system but rather on the material.  Therefore, you can't just buy one preset that you love and leave it always on.  As the material changes, you may need a new preset which will cost you another $25.  Perhaps there could be a way to package all presets together, or at least three or four to give you give coverage for rock/folk/classical/EDM.


 
 I'm so glad to have more and more people thinking seriously about OOYH.  It is a cutting edge technology, and therefore disorienting. We'll all benefit from serious discussion.
  
 For my part, I happen to think that the best preset is firstly about your system, then about genre. I built my current system thinking of OOYH presets as another component to match for synergy. The presets vary wildly, in terms of soundstage presentation, tonal spectrum, etc. They have to differ, because all the sampled equipment and rooms vary in every sonic metric. So I had to match the virtual amp, speaker, room with my real DAC, amp, phones, cables, treating them as if they were real. It's not so unlike using a tube amp to warm up a cold analytic set of phones. The complexity only gets compounded by the fact that certain emulations work better than others because of HRTF and psychoacoustic factors.
  
 I think the suitability of the resulting system for different genres of music is then no different from the fact that some equipment is just better with certain genres than others. So I want to get the OOYH effect right first, then match preset to genre. For example, some presets have much more bass which would make it better for those "drop the bass" genres. But, it the preset doesn't work well with my system (including my mind), if it sounds off, overly bright or muffled, etc. I wouldn't use it.
  
 I definitely match presets to genre, but that's a second order function for me. I have a few presets that are just stunningly good in my system and "in my head." From there, just like in any real world system, there are trade offs. The preset with larger scale and more low end has less detail, that fits soundtracks for me. Another has smaller soundstage and less bass, but greater transparency and articulation, that's my jazz/acoustic preset. I love OOYH for this. It may cost $25/preset, but it's far cheaper and easier than switching real phones/speakers, amps, etc. Not being able to just set it and "leave it" is, to my mind, one of the wonderful things about OOYH. 
  
 Personally, I would love to hear your musings, theoretical and practical!


----------



## hoth

This is definitely a serious piece of kit to be looked at seriously and I think those who discount it do so at their loss. I have had just so much flat out fun with this software.
  
 Some more observations. You really have to be careful to match up the channels and mixing in the source material to the OOYH preset just like in a real world sound output system. That was a very cool find. Playing a 7.1 source in a 2.1 preset is no Bueno unless you compensate properly.
  
 Another important item are the headphones. My T90s absolutely lice OOYH and the  GS1000s are only  slightly less enamored of it while my HD700s seem to throw up all over OOYH. I would be very curious to figure out why that is. I have a couple theories but need to experiment more.
  
 The last thing is that I have two systems which I would like to use OOYH on. I would like to buy all presets but would need to do so for both systems. That's over $1,000.  I don't understand why the licensing must be per computer and not per user.
  
 I am consistently thrilled with how Darin so quickly answers questions on here and cares about this great product. Kudos to you.
  
 ETA:  I also tried OOYH with the TH600 closed backs and they were very nice. I think an open back sounds better though but OOYH was still able to blow the soundstage wide open on a closed back headphone since the headphone was coherent, had good soundstage itself and had good body. (That last sentence may provide my theory on why the HD700s didn't fare as well with OOYH)


----------



## olegausany

I'm really enjoying my HD800 with partial Annex mod with Volti preset


----------



## darinf

hoth said:


> This is definitely a serious piece of kit to be looked at seriously and I think those who discount it do so at their loss. I have had just so much flat out fun with this software.
> 
> Some more observations. You really have to be careful to match up the channels and mixing in the source material to the OOYH preset just like in a real world sound output system. That was a very cool find. Playing a 7.1 source in a 2.1 preset is no Bueno unless you compensate properly.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi hoth, again, thank you for your feedback.
  
 I have never heard HD700s, so I can't really comment on why they would not work as well. But the HD800's work really well due to their exceptional imaging and detail. 
  
 I also use Out Of Your Head with closed headphones, IEMs, CIEMs, etc. and they all work very well. 
  
 As far as buying all the presets, I never imagined many people would want or need all the presets and especially all the presets on two different computers. I always thought that people would pick one or two of their favorite presets and then buy those. The cost for doing that on two computers is fairly reasonable. However, I have been pleasantly surprised at the number of people who have purchased all the presets.
  
 But I agree that purchasing all the presets for two different computers is unreasonably high. I never thought anyone would want that. So what I can do is modify the pricing policy.
  
 If anyone buys all the presets, in addition to the 30% discount, I will also provide a license for all the presets for a 2nd computer for no additional charge. It's tricky to make that happen automatically on our web store, but I will personally e-mail anyone who buys all the presets and manually generate the additional licenses.
  
 -Darin


----------



## hoth

darinf said:


> Hi hoth, again, thank you for your feedback.
> 
> I have never heard HD700s, so I can't really comment on why they would not work as well. But the HD800's work really well due to their exceptional imaging and detail.
> 
> ...


 

 That is really fantastic and just incredible customer service.  My need for so many different presets is precisely because they are so good and so true to the actual spaces.  I have listened to music in so many environments, including some of the best music recording studios.  In fact, I had recorded lots of music in the Genelec studio environment.  When I put that preset on, I was magically transported to exactly that studio.  It was absolutely uncanny how I felt you captured the essence of the Genelec monitor.   When I listen to your presets, I get transported to each of those places that you recorded.  So I am not happy just going to one or two places.  The music I listen to dictates different venues for different material.  I need it all ,


----------



## edwardsean

I also love the HD800 with OOYH. It's shy of electrostatic speed (which is the ideal) but amazingly quick as a dynamic. The HD800 imaging prowess dovetails right into OOYH technology and creates a tremendously satisfying, life-rendering. I used to try and wring out every last inch of soundstage dimension from my system. Post-OOYH, I now think in terms of feet and yards instead of inches. 
  
 I think open-back/full-size just work best in recreating a loudspeaker setup. However, my IEMs also become wide open with OOYH and are able to fill the room. Soundstage was always the place IEMs fell down when compared to full-size headphones, and OOYH does a lot to equalize the situation. 
  
 Olegausany, I'm going to spend some more time with the Volti preset to see if I can't hear what you hear.


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## hoth

darinf said:


> I have never heard HD700s, so I can't really comment on why they would not work as well. But the HD800's work really well due to their exceptional imaging and detail.
> 
> -Darin


 
 I have not tried HD800's but will likely in the next few days.  I wonder if the issue with the HD700s is that OOYH sounds best with headphones that can most faithfully reproduce the mathematics.  That is, OOYH works because of the equations that convert a multi-point signal into a two channel signal that when it interferes with itself in the right way produces the sense of distance and space.  A headphone that causes the outputed signal to deviate from the intended signal projected through it would likely produce non coherent errors.  In contrast, a headphone that more faithfully reproduces the input signal would sound better with OOYH.  In addition, the most important aspect to reproducing the OOYH effect would be in the body of the music and a headphone with little body would have more trouble in reproducing the effect.  Just theories.


----------



## hoth

I had to buy the whole enchilada based on Darin's very generous offer to give us free licenses for other computers if we buy the whole package. What a class act.


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## olegausany

I also had a chance to try Paradox Slants and they really sounded great using HA-1 as Dac and BH SEX amp


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## dmbr

Please tell me I can use this on my laptop as well as my desktop....I did not consider that this license might be per-machine when buying it! I bought it and installed it on my desktop first but do most of my listening on my laptop.

Is there any way to move the license to a different machine, if it is limited? $150 was already more than I felt comfortable spending.

I must recommend a login system so that only one user may use it at once but across all their machines.

Edit: found my answer in the FAQ

" for multiple computers, you will need to purchase a separate preset license. But you do not have to purchase a separate Out Of Your Head license for each computer."

Fair enough...could be worse. But I'm not buying more licenses than the two because of this limitation :/ Please consider a way to rectify this, Daren. I'm sure it's losing you money and leading to less-than-satisfied customers like myself.


----------



## alpha421

PM Daren.  He'll hook you up.  I had a different situation when I upgraded the HDD on my laptop and had to have a new license.


----------



## dmbr

I'm definitely going to PM him, didn't know I could--thanks.
  
 Somehow my license has stopped working after I re-installed JRiver Media Center. I am very unhappy right now.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> I'm definitely going to PM him, didn't know I could--thanks.
> 
> Somehow my license has stopped working after I re-installed JRiver Media Center. I am very unhappy right now.


 
 I got your PM and am responding now. 
  
 But installing/uninstalling JRiver should not have any effect on Out Of Your Head. They are totally separate software packages. JRiver does install a virtual sound card driver too now, but in theory that should not affect the Out Of Your Head virtual sound card driver. 
  
 I will try to replicate the problem on my system. But I will also contact you via PM to troubleshoot.


----------



## dmbr

darinf said:


> I got your PM and am responding now.
> 
> But installing/uninstalling JRiver should not have any effect on Out Of Your Head. They are totally separate software packages. JRiver does install a virtual sound card driver too now, but in theory that should not affect the Out Of Your Head virtual sound card driver.
> 
> I will try to replicate the problem on my system. But I will also contact you via PM to troubleshoot.


 Thanks, Daren.

It seems somehow the driver was installed twice somehow, which may be the problem.

Any idea why feeding it a 5.1 source would be causing scratching/crackling? I am using the Foobar channel mixer to turn stereo into 5 channels, as this sounds much better.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> Thanks, Daren.
> 
> It seems somehow the driver was installed twice somehow, which may be the problem.
> 
> Any idea why feeding it a 5.1 source would be causing scratching/crackling? I am using the Foobar channel mixer to turn stereo into 5 channels, as this sounds much better.


 
 If you see two instances of the Out Of Your Head driver, then that is definitely a problem. My recommendation is to uninstall Out Of Your Head and then uninstall all instances of the Out Of Your Head driver in the Windows Device Manager (also check "delete the driver" when uninstalling.
  
 Warning: When two instances of the Out Of Your Head are installed, you may get a BSOD when trying to uninstall the driver. I will e-mail you instructions on how to uninstall without BSOD.
  
 Regarding the scratching/crackling, it may just be an issue of clipping. Try adjusting the volume level down in FooBar and/or the input levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. 
  
 I have never tried using FooBar to upconvert 2 channels to 5.1 channels. I will test it to see if I can replicate the problem. Can you tell me how you are doing that in FooBar? Are you using a plugin?


----------



## hekeli

hoth said:


> I wonder if the issue with the HD700s is that OOYH sounds best with headphones that can most faithfully reproduce the mathematics.


 
  
 You are thinking too complicated. It's mostly about _frequency response_ and interaction of headphone with your head and ears which also modify FR. That's why Smyth Realiser also does HPEQ to flatten the headphone/pinnae response. Of course the generic coherency/openess/speed/lack of resonances etc of headphone is a good part of how accurately it can reproduce sound. Since OOYH does not provide a (HP)EQ, you could simply try equing stuff "flat" with your player.


----------



## hyoboy24

I just tried the trial version and I like the acoustic zen preset. But I seem to be experiencing a problem with the presets as a whole.
On tracks with few instruments, it sounds perfect, placement and all. However on tracks with many instruments/dynamics, the instruments/music seems to be jumbled up and theres a slight loss of detail. Just wondering if there's any solution for this or whether its an inherent trait.


----------



## edwardsean

hyoboy24 said:


> I just tried the trial version and I like the acoustic zen preset. But I seem to be experiencing a problem with the presets as a whole.
> On tracks with few instruments, it sounds perfect, placement and all. However on tracks with many instruments/dynamics, the instruments/music seems to be jumbled up and theres a slight loss of detail. Just wondering if there's any solution for this or whether its an inherent trait. I'm using the LCD-3 with Auralic Gemini 2000, Jriver/Wasapi. Thanks


 
 Hi Hyoboy24, 
  
 I like the Acoustic Zen preset too. For me also, it was a sort of "gateway preset" to virtual addiction. It was one of the first prsets that made sense to me and helped me reorient the "jumble" I was hearing. I had to start thinking speaker/room sound instead of headphone sound. For example, the loss of detail: There is so much detail in headphone sound. The speakers are right up against your ears or in your ear canals. You lose a kind of detail when listening to speakers that are 3, 5, 10, 15 feet away from you. If OOYH didn't emulate that loss of "ear tickling detail" it couldn't convey out of your head speaker placement.
  
 Things started to "un-jumble" for me as a factor of sight before sound, i.e., I kept closing my eyes and tried to imagine loudspeakers in front of me. It's strange how much our eyes affect our ears. The Smyth Realiser folk have noted how, for some people, listening beside a wall cut off the perceived soundstage on that side. This is with headphones mind you! There is no auditory reason that where you are in your physical room should affect headphone listening. But the mind can play powerful tricks on the ears. Good for us, because OOYH depends on just that.


----------



## hoth

edwardsean said:


> Hi Hyoboy24,
> 
> I like the Acoustic Zen preset too. For me also, it was a sort of "gateway preset" to virtual addiction. It was one of the first prsets that made sense to me and helped me reorient the "jumble" I was hearing. I had to start thinking speaker/room sound instead of headphone sound. For example, the loss of detail: There is so much detail in headphone sound. The speakers are right up against your ears or in your ear canals. You lose a kind of detail when listening to speakers that are 3, 5, 10, 15 feet away from you. If OOYH didn't emulate that loss of "ear tickling detail" it couldn't convey out of your head speaker placement.
> 
> Things started to "un-jumble" for me as a factor of sight before sound, i.e., I kept closing my eyes and tried to imagine loudspeakers in front of me. It's strange how much our eyes affect our ears. The Smyth Realiser folk have noted how, for some people, listening beside a wall cut off the perceived soundstage on that side. This is with headphones mind you! There is no auditory reason that where you are in your physical room should affect headphone listening. But the mind can play powerful tricks on the ears. Good for us, because OOYH depends on just that.


 

 Great post.  I hate to follow your posts since you have great advice and really get it.  After a bit of fiddling I was able to get everything on my mac laptop (where I have the benchmark DAC2) to work.  I needed the added umph because I was going to compare the HD800, HE560 and LCD-XC with OOYH.  My findings yesterday that the HD700 didn't work with me using OOYH was somewhat validated by my experience with the HD800.  The HD800 was extremely detailed but I found that the auditory quess as to where instruments were placed were coming through so hot that that could have interfered with my enjoyment.  On the other end of the spectrum, the HE560's with rolled off treble didn't let me get enough treble information to get all the detail I needed for the instruments for the spatial cues.  Things still sounded great though but a little flat compared to the more synergistic headphones.  So last but not least was the XC which was just superb and sublime with OOYH.  It had the right amount of everything and really gives the T90 a run for its money in this setup.  I was absolutely lost and immersed in listening to James Taylor.  What a joy.  Another great listening session.  I might be turning into a fanboy.
  
 ETA: By the way, my favorite presets are PBNJ, Sascha and Acoustic Zen; which are presets that others also indicated are their tops.  
  
 EATA: Closing your eyes really really helps the effect.  Also, it would be great if we had a way in the plugin to delay or speed up sound for sync since I like to watch iTunes movies with OOYH including musical movies.
  
 Thanks Darin!


----------



## dmbr

I resolved all my issues and Darin was very helpful and prompt in his responses. All I can't get working is WASAPI, but no biggie, DS is fine.
  
 You can buy this product with confidence 
  
  
 PS
 If you're using Foobar, I really recommend upmixing stereo to 5.1 with the "Channel Mixer" component before feeding it to OOYH. Makes for a much more encompassing surround sound feel.


----------



## Fox1977

Hi everybody !
 I recently got a license of OOYH and after hesitating with Acoustic Zen and Magical Speakers, i eventually opted for Magical Speakers that sounded more "out of my head". My headphones are Sennheiser Momentum.
 So far i've been using Media Player Classic, but i'm wondering if there is a better option. Will it sound the same with another software ? I read that some use Foobar or JRiver. Which improvements would i get to change my player ?
 Thanks


----------



## olegausany

Try and decide for yourself. Both could be and should be used with wasapi event mode to get some improvement. J River has built in resampler which you have to use in order to get wasapi mode to work. Foobar2000 in addition to included resampler also can use SoX resampler which you can download by googling SoX plugin for foobar2000 (I prefer one over the stock one). Also foobar2000 is much easier to setup


----------



## joachimvhw

Great software, putting the sound outside makes all the difference. Too pricey for me, anyone know of alternatives?


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## mkeroppi

joachimvhw said:


> Great software, putting the sound outside makes all the difference. Too pricey for me, anyone know of alternatives?


 

 I recommend TB Isone. The clarity of OOYH doesn't compare with Isone for critical listening. But the "room" of Isone is much smaller than OOYH.
  
 Isone doesn't do surround sound though.


----------



## joachimvhw

mkeroppi said:


> I recommend TB Isone. The clarity of OOYH doesn't compare with Isone for critical listening. But the "room" of Isone is much smaller than OOYH.
> 
> Isone doesn't do surround sound though.


 

 Thanks for the reply. I found out about TB Isone just a few hours ago, sounds great to me too. Would there be a way to have every sound processed through the Isone VST in real time? Ie: the isone plugin would process all sounds, whether it's spotify, wmp, games, youtube, etc...
  
 Thanks


----------



## dmbr

joachimvhw said:


> Great software, putting the sound outside makes all the difference. Too pricey for me, anyone know of alternatives?



I like this Dolby Headphones Config just as much as OOYH:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss

Way better than isone, imo.


----------



## Fox1977

You may check out on Massdrop, twice already there was an offer for Out Of Your Head. The soft is indeed a bit too expensive, especially with the limitations it brings (if you change you want to install it on your second computer, if you change your computer or simply change OS, you have to buy a new license for your presets, 25$ each...). But via Massdrop, i could get it for half price, which convinced me to go for it...
 You can suscribe to be notified if a new deal for it appears in the forthcoming weeks or months.


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## mkeroppi

dmbr said:


> I like this Dolby Headphones Config just as much as OOYH:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss
> 
> Way better than isone, imo.


 
  
 This upmixes to surround, so totally different beast...not saying there is anything wrong with doing that...


----------



## darinf

fox1977 said:


> You may check out on Massdrop, twice already there was an offer for Out Of Your Head. The soft is indeed a bit too expensive, especially with the limitations it brings (if you change you want to install it on your second computer, if you change your computer or simply change OS, you have to buy a new license for your presets, 25$ each...). But via Massdrop, i could get it for half price, which convinced me to go for it...
> You can suscribe to be notified if a new deal for it appears in the forthcoming weeks or months.


 
 Actually, if you change computers or OS, just contact us and let us know. We can transfer your licenses to a new machine.
  
 If you want to license Out Of Your Head on two computers then you do have to buy preset licenses for the 2nd computer, which is $15 to $25 per preset.


----------



## dmbr

mkeroppi said:


> This upmixes to surround, so totally different beast...not saying there is anything wrong with doing that...




They both provide "out of your head" sound virtualization.

You can upmix to surround in OOYH, too, by the way  Doesn't provide as distinct a front/back difference though.


----------



## mkeroppi

dmbr said:


> They both provide "out of your head" sound virtualization.
> 
> You can upmix to surround in OOYH, too, by the way
> 
> ...


 

 I was talking about comparing OOYH/DH with Isone. Cross-feed is also "out of your head," nobody will group that with all of these.


----------



## edwardsean

dmbr said:


> They both provide "out of your head" sound virtualization.
> 
> You can upmix to surround in OOYH, too, by the way
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Dmbr, 
  
 I've been looking into upmixing myself. I got a whole bunch of 5.1 music tracks and they sound phenomenal through 5.1. Some were unmixed, so I've been exploring technology like auto 3D, penteo, sound field, and waves um225/6. I just started last night, but so far, I can't get it to work. How did you use OOYH to upmix? Are you doing it through foobar plugins on PC? I'm on a Mac.
  
 Also, how good (e.g., natural/artificial, spatialization accuracy, instrument separation, etc.) are the results in general and comparative to native surround?


----------



## SavantGarde

mkeroppi said:


> Isone doesn't do surround sound though.


 
TB Isone Surround does. And it's free.
  
 Available here (version 2.9.1): http://www.toneboosters.com/download/


----------



## SavantGarde

dmbr said:


> You can upmix to surround in OOYH, too, by the way
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Do you mean by manipulating the channel mapping in the OOYH control panel? I'm quite certain OOYH doesn't feature an upmixing algorithm.


----------



## joachimvhw

Just a heads up, apart from the TB Isone VST for headphone virtualization, Beyerdynamic has a free VST as well, which you can find here: http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/virtual-studio.html. The 5.1 studio preset, I find, works great.


----------



## kalston

savantgarde said:


> TB Isone Surround does. And it's free.
> 
> Available here (version 2.9.1): http://www.toneboosters.com/download/


 
 And it's IMO excellent, my favourite virtual surround by far. Maybe because it doesn't change the sound too much, kind of like the stereo version - it's subtle but effective without hurting clarity/details. It's probably a bit further from the sound of real speakers than something like OOYH though.


----------



## SavantGarde

kalston said:


> And it's IMO excellent, my favourite virtual surround by far. Maybe because it doesn't change the sound too much, kind of like the stereo version - it's subtle but effective without hurting clarity/details. It's probably a bit further from the sound of real speakers than something like OOYH though.


 

 OOYH actually works better for me. I get significantly more precise and distinct directionality and better externalisation than with TB IsoneSurround. I found an OOYH-preset that works well for me and gives me a decently natural timbre, which is actually rather suprising given that Darin says no headphone equalising is applied. For binaural audio to work optimally the signal must be equalised for an objectively flat frequency response at the eardrum of the end listener. Most in-ear measurement/recording microphones seem to have a flat frequency response, but maybe the ones Darin uses has some kind of special calibration (such as inverse diffuse field calibration), otherwise it's hard to understand how it can work so well without equalisation. The mind's ability to correct for unexpected timbres of familiar sounds could play a part, though.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> They both provide "out of your head" sound virtualization.
> 
> You can upmix to surround in OOYH, too, by the way
> 
> ...


 
  
  


edwardsean said:


> Hi Dmbr,
> 
> I've been looking into upmixing myself. I got a whole bunch of 5.1 music tracks and they sound phenomenal through 5.1. Some were unmixed, so I've been exploring technology like auto 3D, penteo, sound field, and waves um225/6. I just started last night, but so far, I can't get it to work. How did you use OOYH to upmix? Are you doing it through foobar plugins on PC? I'm on a Mac.
> 
> Also, how good (e.g., natural/artificial, spatialization accuracy, instrument separation, etc.) are the results in general and comparative to native surround?


 
 Hi everyone,
  
 Sorry I didn't respond sooner. For some reason my subscription notification for this thread isn't working reliably...
  
 Anyway, Out Of Your Head does not do any channel upmixing or downmixing. It simply plays back the number of channels you feed it through the virtual speakers. If you feed it two channel audio, it will play the audio through the L and R speakers.
  
 However, there are a lot of options available for upmixing 2 channel to 5.1 or 7.1. JRiver Media Center has that functionality built-in. You can enable it in the Tools/Options/Audio/DSP & Output Format settings. Under Channels/Mixing, you can set it to "JRSS mixing".
  
 I believe there are similar functions available as plug-ins for FooBar. (http://skipyrich.com/wiki/Foobar2000:Channel_Mixer but I have not tried this one.)
  
 ONce your media player converts the audio to 5.1, then Out Of Your Head will play the audio back through all 6 speakers.


----------



## darinf

savantgarde said:


> OOYH actually works better for me. I get significantly more precise and distinct directionality and better externalisation than with TB IsoneSurround. I found an OOYH-preset that works well for me and gives me a decently natural timbre, which is actually rather suprising given that Darin says no headphone equalising is applied. For binaural audio to work optimally the signal must be equalised for an objectively flat frequency response at the eardrum of the end listener. Most in-ear measurement/recording microphones seem to have a flat frequency response, but maybe the ones Darin uses has some kind of special calibration (such as inverse diffuse field calibration), otherwise it's hard to understand how it can work so well without equalisation. The mind's ability to correct for unexpected timbres of familiar sounds could play a part, though.


 
 Thanks for your impressions.
  
 I guess I should clarify. There is EQ being done during the recording and playback of the speaker/room presets. However, there is no headphone model specific EQ being applied. (Customized measurements can include headphone EQ which is measured at the time of the measurement session.)


----------



## dmbr

As far as Surrpund goes, the DH config is the best option, but it sounds like headphones still (which I generally prefer). OOYH just doesn't quite give a distinct sensation of sounds coming from the rear when upmixing to 5.1 or 4 channel in Foobar. 

OOYH is for listeners that prefer the "speaker sound", and it's great for that.


----------



## hoth

I agree that the weakest part of OOYH seems to be the rear projection.  The rear sounds more to the sides and a bit level in front of me while the fronts sound out of my head and a bit elevated if that makes sense.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> As far as Surrpund goes, the DH config is the best option, but it sounds like headphones still (which I generally prefer). OOYH just doesn't quite give a distinct sensation of sounds coming from the rear when upmixing to 5.1 or 4 channel in Foobar.
> 
> OOYH is for listeners that prefer the "speaker sound", and it's great for that.


 
  
  


hoth said:


> I agree that the weakest part of OOYH seems to be the rear projection.  The rear sounds more to the sides and a bit level in front of me while the fronts sound out of my head and a bit elevated if that makes sense.


 
 FYI, the speaker positions in the 7.1 speaker presets in Out Of Your Head are in most cases set up according to the Dolby recommended speaker angles, meaning the L and R surround speakers (channel 5 and 6) are about 110 degrees from the front. Therefore the "surround" speakers are actually to the side of the listening position and slightly back. The L and R rear surround speakers are at about 140 degrees from front putting them behind the listening position.
  
 You can see the recommended angles for both 7.1 and 5.1 here:
 http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/7-1-setup.html
 http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/5-1-setup.html
  
 So, when listening to 5.1 sources, you will not hear much sound behind you. It is supposed to be to the side. 
 Some people may prefer to have the sound behind them, but technically that's not within spec.
 Some presets I do sometimes "cheat" the surround speakers to 115 to 120 degrees, but the recording studios have their speakers set exactly to spec.
  
 I have not tried this, but if your media player or OS can remap the surround channels to the rear surround channels, then you can get more sound behind you.
  
 I hope that makes sense that the sound coming from the side is by design. But channels 7 and 8 should definitely sound behind you. If you listen to the pre-rendered demo channel ID file on our website, your should hear the rear surround speakers behind you.
https://fongaudio.com/demo/
 (It's the first audio sample on that page.)
  
 -Darin


----------



## songmic

The OOYH has replaced my Smyth Realiser A8. Honestly, as awesome as the Realiser is, I couldn't really grasp any sonic advantages it had over using the OOYH software.
  
 So far I've been using it to enjoy 2-channel stereo files, but seeing how it could handle 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound, I would like to try that.
  
 There are websites dedicated to providing hi-rez files, like HDtracks or Linn Records. There are also websites that provide native DSD files, like Blue Coast Records or 2L. That being said, which websites are known to sell multichannel files (that are audiophile grade, at least 16/44.1 or higher)?
  
 Or do multichannel files need to be ripped from physical CD's that have multichannel music recorded in them?


----------



## SavantGarde

darinf said:


> Thanks for your impressions.
> 
> I guess I should clarify. There is EQ being done during the recording and playback of the speaker/room presets. However, there is no headphone model specific EQ being applied. (Customized measurements can include headphone EQ which is measured at the time of the measurement session.)


 

 OK. Thanks for enlightening


----------



## Fabithierry

Right now, i'm trying the "Dolby Pro Logic Decoder" in the ffdshow audio decoder with my headphones and it sounds AMAZING!!!


----------



## Fox1977

Hi !
 I've been using OOYH for a few weeks and i am facing an issue : on some soundtracks, whenever there is a big explosion or a loud sound with a lot of low frequency sounds, i get very unpleasant cracklings and clickings that kinda spoils the fun of it (as well as my ears !)
 Is there any setting i can modify to fix that ? So far, i've been using Media Player Classic with LAV Audio...
 Thanks for your advises !


----------



## BeatsWork

fox1977 said:


> Hi !
> I've been using OOYH for a few weeks and i am facing an issue : on some soundtracks, whenever there is a big explosion or a loud sound with a lot of low frequency sounds, i get very unpleasant cracklings and clickings that kinda spoils the fun of it (as well as my ears !)
> Is there any setting i can modify to fix that ? So far, i've been using Media Player Classic with LAV Audio...
> Thanks for your advises !


 

 Search this thread for "clipping"


----------



## darinf

fox1977 said:


> Hi !
> I've been using OOYH for a few weeks and i am facing an issue : on some soundtracks, whenever there is a big explosion or a loud sound with a lot of low frequency sounds, i get very unpleasant cracklings and clickings that kinda spoils the fun of it (as well as my ears !)
> Is there any setting i can modify to fix that ? So far, i've been using Media Player Classic with LAV Audio...
> Thanks for your advises !


 
  
  


beatswork said:


> Search this thread for "clipping"


 
 Thanks for responding @BeatsWork
  
@Fox1977 try this post:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/90#post_10085658
  
 Basically, you will need to turn down the output level of your media player or the input levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.


----------



## hoth

I'm getting great back speaker simulation by selecting JRSS upmixing in jriver and the selecting clone side speakers to back. OOYH is still rockin for me. I usually get tired of "virtualizers" quickly but not this one.


----------



## glorkaglickflic

Let me ask this question.  I have Stax SR 507s.  I was tempted to purchase a pair of Stax  404 Sigmas.  Obviously, the drivers in the 507s are superior to the Sigma drivers.  With this system, would it make sense to purchase the Sigmas or just use my current 507s?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin, been following this thread w a great deal of interest, and I have an observation and a question.  
  
 It seems to me that a number of products, specifically 9 dof sensors from companies such as Hillcrest Laboratories which provide the capability for affordable, lightweight, turn key headtracking for video game 
 /virtual reality simulators such as the Occulus Rift headset. Given that these sensor and software packages are roughly the size of a quarter, have gyroscopes, acelerometers, and magmetometers each of which tracks orientation in three dimensions, are powered by micro usb, have software which works with low lstency in a windows environment, and claim near turnkey packages to assist developers for adapting their product to a variety of applications, wouldn't this be a natural way to upgrade Ooyh to a Smythe Level product.  
  
 In other words, do you plan to add head trackin capability to OOYH given how easy it could be now that these products are coming into the marketplace?


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> Darin, been following this thread w a great deal of interest, and I have an observation and a question.
> 
> It seems to me that a number of products, specifically 9 dof sensors from companies such as Hillcrest Laboratories which provide the capability for affordable, lightweight, turn key headtracking for video game
> /virtual reality simulators such as the Occulus Rift headset. Given that these sensor and software packages are roughly the size of a quarter, have gyroscopes, acelerometers, and magmetometers each of which tracks orientation in three dimensions, are powered by micro usb, have software which works with low lstency in a windows environment, and claim near turnkey packages to assist developers for adapting their product to a variety of applications, wouldn't this be a natural way to upgrade Ooyh to a Smythe Level product.
> ...


 
 Hi @phoenixdogfan , thanks for posting.
  
 Although head tracking would be a welcome feature for Out Of Your Head, to be honest, there are other things we are working on before even looking at head tracking (iOS/Android versions, gaming version, user measurement capability, Atmos/3D audio support, etc.). For many Realiser owners I know, very few of them seem to actually use the head tracker. Yes, when people first buy it, they use the head tracker, but after becoming familiar with the sound of virtual speakers, I think the head tracker is less useful. For me, I just don't need it in order to get a solid sonic image. The other issue is that I have been trying to avoid getting into the hardware business. The logistics of inventory, shipping, returns, repairs, etc. would add significantly to the cost of Out Of Your Head. But, I have looked into it and may be something added in the future.


----------



## glorkaglickflic

Let me ask this question.  I have Stax SR 507s.  I was tempted to purchase a pair of Stax  404 Sigmas.  Obviously, the drivers in the 507s are superior to the Sigma drivers.  With this system, would it make sense to purchase the Sigmas or just use my current 507s?


----------



## dmbr

Darin and other users,
I can't seem to get WASAPI (event) working properly on either of my machines (Windows 7 64-bit).

In Foobar2k it will occassionally (often, really) play noise and static when I start playback. In Jriver Media Center it simply will not play.

I'm a foobar user, so I'm more concerned with getting it to work properly than at all. 

Help, please?


----------



## olegausany

Did you enable and configure resampler plugin in foobar DSP manager?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

By "user measurement capability" do you mean finding a way for customizing the speaker setups to an individual's personal HRTF without having to go to Sandiego and have it measured in each speaker/room set up. 

Obviously, if there were a way for a person to have his personal HRTF captured once in his hometown, at, say, an audiologist's office, have it digitally specified, emailed to you and have it married up to the room and speaker system transfer function, this would also be a huge upgrade.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> Darin and other users,
> I can't seem to get WASAPI (event) working properly on either of my machines (Windows 7 64-bit).
> 
> In Foobar2k it will occassionally (often, really) play noise and static when I start playback. In Jriver Media Center it simply will not play.
> ...


 
 I just tried the setting in this earlier post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/360#post_11193617
 on two different Windows machines using JRiver and WASAPI worked fine on both.
  
 Please make sure all the settings match the screen shot I posted int he earlier thread.
  
 Basically you have to make sure all audio is resampled down/up to 48KHz/24bit sampling rate and 7.1 channels of audio even if there is no content on all 8 channels. (At least in JRiver) I am not sure about the settings in Foobar.
  
 Of course, you can always contact me directly and we can set up a phone call or remote control session to sort it out.


----------



## dmbr

dupe


----------



## dmbr

darinf said:


> I just tried the setting in this earlier post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/360#post_11193617
> on two different Windows machines using JRiver and WASAPI worked fine on both.
> 
> Please make sure all the settings match the screen shot I posted int he earlier thread.
> ...


 
 Ah, I only have it resampling up to 4 channels...any idea of how to get it up to 7.1 with foobar? As far as I know, 5.1 is the highest number of channels available with upmixing components/plug-ins.


----------



## edwardsean

darinf said:


> Hi @phoenixdogfan , thanks for posting.
> 
> Although head tracking would be a welcome feature for Out Of Your Head, to be honest, there are other things we are working on before even looking at head tracking (iOS/Android versions, gaming version, user measurement capability, Atmos/3D audio support, etc.). For many Realiser owners I know, very few of them seem to actually use the head tracker. Yes, when people first buy it, they use the head tracker, but after becoming familiar with the sound of virtual speakers, I think the head tracker is less useful. For me, I just don't need it in order to get a solid sonic image. The other issue is that I have been trying to avoid getting into the hardware business. The logistics of inventory, shipping, returns, repairs, etc. would add significantly to the cost of Out Of Your Head. But, I have looked into it and may be something added in the future.


 

 Two things just real quick:
 1) When I was looking into the Realiser one of the selling points was the head-tracking. It was explained to me as necessary or else, "you have these huge speakers 'swinging around the room' every time you move your head." I thought, "Awesome! That's actually what I want." I don't want head-tracking. I want the speakers to move with me. No more having the stereo image collapse every time I move my head. Ultimately, I don't think recreating speaker-listening, in and of itself, is the goal, right? We want huge, "room-filling," immersive high quality sound like you get from speakers in headphone format. And, if, along the way, you can improve on some things that real-world speakers can't do, i think those of us using OOYH should thing OOTB (out of the box).
  
 2) "iOS/Android versions, gaming version, user measurement capability, Atmos/3D audio support"--woohoo! Yes, please! 
  
 ps. This all made me think what it would've been like to try and engineer "reverse head-tracking" for real-world speakers. You would need some Hollywood computer-controlled dollies with articulating hydraulics to move the speaker to keep position relative to your ears every time you move your head.


----------



## olegausany

dmbr said:


> darinf said:
> 
> 
> > I just tried the setting in this earlier post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/360#post_11193617
> ...



You need to use either provided PPHS resampler Or SoX plugin set to 48000, there's no channels changes in foobar. I prefer SoX while difference is small


----------



## edwardsean

HI. I edited my post above to avoid confusion. I was trying to say that, personally, I don't want head-tracking. 
  
 Also, Darin, will the new SOFA standard for HRTF mean anything for what you're doing, or is that completely incompatible? http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/aes-settles-sofa-3d-hrtf-datasets


----------



## darinf

glorkaglickflic said:


> Let me ask this question.  I have Stax SR 507s.  I was tempted to purchase a pair of Stax  404 Sigmas.  Obviously, the drivers in the 507s are superior to the Sigma drivers.  With this system, would it make sense to purchase the Sigmas or just use my current 507s?


 
 I think most people are not familiar with the differences between the 507 and 404. I have not heard the 404, but I have the 407's. I am not sure what difference there is between the 404 and 507's. I imagine that's also why you haven't gotten much of a response here. You might try asking in the Stax thread.


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> By "user measurement capability" do you mean finding a way for customizing the speaker setups to an individual's personal HRTF without having to go to Sandiego and have it measured in each speaker/room set up.
> 
> Obviously, if there were a way for a person to have his personal HRTF captured once in his hometown, at, say, an audiologist's office, have it digitally specified, emailed to you and have it married up to the room and speaker system transfer function, this would also be a huge upgrade.


 
 Not exactly what I meant.
  
 What I meant is that some day I envision selling microphones and software that let the user make their own measurements of speakers and rooms. You would still have to be present in the room with the speakers in order to do a measurement, but you wouldn't have to come to San Diego to have me do it. You could do your own custom measurements provided you can find a location with a speaker setup worth measuring.
  
 Yes, it would be awesome if there was a way to apply someone's HRTF and apply it to a room measurement. I've thought about how that could be done, but so far I have not figured out how that's possible. That would be amazing!


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> HI. I edited my post above to avoid confusion. I was trying to say that, personally, I don't want head-tracking.
> 
> Also, Darin, will the new SOFA standard for HRTF mean anything for what you're doing, or is that completely incompatible? http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/aes-settles-sofa-3d-hrtf-datasets


 
 Yes, that SOFA standard is very interesting. To be honest I don;t know enough about it to see how it can be applied to Out Of Your Head, but it does seem like it's heading towards what I mentioned in @phoenixdogfan post above about being able to get your own HRTF measured and apply it to any speaker and room measurement. How cool would that be!


----------



## dmbr

olegausany said:


> You need to use either provided PPHS resampler Or SoX plugin set to 48000, there's no channels changes in foobar. I prefer SoX while difference is small


 I already am using sox at 48000. I'm also using the "stereo to 4 channel" DSP. 

Edit: the problem causing the noise/static was that I was outputting to WASAPI at 24 bits not 32.

Now the only issue is that when sounds play from outside of foobar, Foobar playback stutters and eventually stops. 

I use Razer Surround for gaming and leave it as my default device because of that...I'll do some investigating there.


----------



## olegausany

You don't have to use the second one, it works without it


----------



## glorkaglickflic

darinf said:


> I think most people are not familiar with the differences between the 507 and 404. I have not heard the 404, but I have the 407's. I am not sure what difference there is between the 404 and 507's. I imagine that's also why you haven't gotten much of a response here. You might try asking in the Stax thread.


 
 I appreciate your response, Darin.  I apologize for not being more specific.  The Stax Sigma 404 was a custom made Stax that was built to increase the out of head soundstage experience. The original Sigma was first produced in the 1970's and is currently not in production.  I really like your system, and it makes my 507's really amazing.  My question was really to ask if it was worth buying the Sigmas to use with your system.  My 507's really have a great soundstage with your system, which would probably mean that purchasing the Sigmas would probably be unnecessary.  I just wanted opinions about this.


----------



## valleynomad

phoenixdogfan said:


> ........ if there were a way for a person to have his personal HRTF captured once in his hometown, at, say, an audiologist's office...


 
  
 I don't see any audiologist's office in my hometown will be able to have such equipment in the foreseeable future


----------



## furthersky

I have some issues with the audio cutting in and out every 1-2 seconds with the trial on my Surface Pro. It works fine on my desktop though.
 Anyone have any ideas how to resolve this?


----------



## dmbr

Maybe increase the buffer length in your audio player?


On an unrelated note, I've started to use OOYH with the FreeSurround component in 7.1, and wow...sound really seems to be hitting me from all directions, and I'm not even through with tweaking the FS settings. Really recommend trying OOYH in multichannel sound, and with FS for upmixing (beats the pants off of the Channel Mixer or Stereo to Quadrophonic components).


----------



## furthersky

dmbr said:


> Maybe increase the buffer length in your audio player?


 
  
 Thanks. I tried increasing the buffer to 6000ms. That didn't work. It's not just my audio player (foobar2000) but also youtube and other video/audio that I play and I don't mean the audio lagging the video. The audio would stop every few seconds then play. OOYH rocks on my desktop but my main use will be on my Surface Pro and on the go. I just want to make sure it works before I make a purchase.


----------



## edwardsean

dmbr said:


> Maybe increase the buffer length in your audio player?
> 
> 
> On an unrelated note, I've started to use OOYH with the FreeSurround component in 7.1, and wow...sound really seems to be hitting me from all directions, and I'm not even through with tweaking the FS settings. Really recommend trying OOYH in multichannel sound, and with FS for upmixing (beats the pants off of the Channel Mixer or Stereo to Quadrophonic components).


 

 Hi. I'm on a Mac so I'm using JRiver and its native 7.1 upmixing function, but it has no advanced upmixing features. Could you let me know what FreeSurround component and audio host are you using?


----------



## dmbr

I'm using Foobar. The FreeSurround component can be found on hydrogenaudio.


----------



## zzffnn

Very cool software. Will buy it as soon as Android version comes out. Darin, please consider offering combo discount in the future - I may need Windows, Mac and Android versions.


----------



## bmichels

*Out of Your Head software ... when you do NOT want to use PC/Mac ??*
  
 after testing the OOYH demo, I know that... I want to use Darin Fong's  software.
  
 but... I want to move away from PC/MAC based music server to dedicated Audio music server (like aurender, Aries, Antipodes DX, ...) !
  
 so.... *is there a solution ?*   Has Darin Fong signed OEM agreement with such company to have them incorporating his technology in their Audio server/streamers ?


----------



## darinf

bmichels said:


> *Out of Your Head software ... when you do NOT want to use PC/Mac ??*
> 
> after testing the OOYH demo, I know that... I want to use Darin Fong's  software.
> 
> ...


 
As of now, I have not talked to any of the music sever companies about incorporating Out Of Your Head technology into their servers. Depending on the underlying platform they use, there is no reason why it can't be done.
I would definitely be open to licensing Out Of Your Head technology to the manufacturers, but I currently have not been approached by any of them and I do not know any of the people at the companies you mentioned.
Thanks for the suggestions though. I will look into contacting the manufacturers. 
  
Currently to use Out Of Your Head, you would have to use a Windows or Mac based computer system that allows you access to the regular operating system and not a proprietary interface or proprietary operating system.
 
You could use a small laptop or Surface Pro type tablet to listen to Out Of Your Head with your headphones. You could stream content from a network music server to the laptop and then output Out Of Your Head to your headphones. I know this defeats the whole purpose of the dedicated music servers since you would not be using their DAC or high quality digital source, but a laptop solution would let you have a "mobile" setup anywhere in your home for Out Of Your Head/headphone listening. Even a laptop with a low cost USB DAC/amp can be an incredibly good playback system depending on the headphones you plan on using.
 
Again, I know it's not the same as having our technology embedded in the music server, but a laptop is really the only solution at this point.


----------



## Pazz

darinf said:


> As of now, I have not talked to any of the music sever companies about incorporating Out Of Your Head technology into their servers. Depending on the underlying platform they use, there is no reason why it can't be done.
> I would definitely be open to licensing Out Of Your Head technology to the manufacturers, but I currently have not been approached by any of them and I do not know any of the people at the companies you mentioned.
> Thanks for the suggestions though. I will look into contacting the manufacturers.
> 
> ...


 
 That sounds good, hopefully you'll get someone on board in the future. I'd love to see a DAC with this type of DSP implemented in it. Actually, I wish someone just came out with a user-programmable-DSP DAC. Perhaps make it so that you can even load standard VST plugins into it. Maybe I'm just ignorant or something, but I feel like this would be a great idea.


----------



## bmichels

Now that I know that I want to be able to use OOYH in my system, this changed my requirements for Music server:  I need now a Music server... on which I can load windows software like "Out of your head". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
--> *what are the TOL dedicated music server/ripper (not a PC that need tweking, but a dedicated box) *
*     on which you can load 3rd party Windows applications ?  *
  
       Minimum requirement is a very user friendly UI,  TIDAL or QOBUZ for high quality streaming, and no need for a NAS (but USB HD is OK)
  
       Initially I was investigating* *Aurender, Aries, Antipodes DX, LUMIN... but I can't load on them software like "Out of your head"  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 I have this one in my radar *: The CAT from Computer Audio Design.* See a good  HiFi+ review here
  
 It is Windows based, uses JRiver, and includes inside SSD for storage, a ripper, and can act also as... a NAS if you want. 
  
 It's Windows is highly tweaked and stripped back, but...You can still load Windows' applications on it
  
 Any  * other Windows Music server suggestions ? *


----------



## bmichels

double post...


----------



## VandyMan

Now that we have scanners that can produce 3D models of your ear (for CIEMs), it would be amazing if they could be used to mathematically construct a correction curve for your ears.


----------



## BeatsWork

Up on MD for $75 with one speaker preset https://www.massdrop.com/buy/out-of-your-head-speaker-software?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Community%20-%20Audiophile%20-%20MAU%20%28Inactive%29&utm_campaign=Audiophile%20Inactive%20Product%20Announcement%202015-04-11&mode=guest_open


----------



## darinf

vandyman said:


> Now that we have scanners that can produce 3D models of your ear (for CIEMs), it would be amazing if they could be used to mathematically construct a correction curve for your ears.


 
 Yes, it would be cool, but the math required boggles my mind.
  
 The other problem is that I think the ear scanners would have to scan your whole ear, pinnae included. Not sure if they can do that or not.
  
 Out Of Your Head is based on real measurements, not computer generated effects. So using a 3D scan of an ear would be very hard to translate into actual audio measurement files.
  
 It's almost like giving someone a 3D scan of a violin and then writing software to generate the sound that the violin would make based on the 3D scan. It's relatively easy to record the sound of the violin, but it's virtually impossible to generate the sound of the violin based on how air would interact with a 3D model.


----------



## darinf

beatswork said:


> Up on MD for $75 with one speaker preset https://www.massdrop.com/buy/out-of-your-head-speaker-software?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Community%20-%20Audiophile%20-%20MAU%20%28Inactive%29&utm_campaign=Audiophile%20Inactive%20Product%20Announcement%202015-04-11&mode=guest_open


 
 Thanks for posting that!


----------



## bmichels

I still love OOYH, but looking at it's secs, I am a little concerned to use it for my "audiophile" listening with my TOL system.
  
 Indeed,
  
*1 - *with it Max sample rate is limited to 48 kHz    
  
 Therefore, now all my High-Res music is down-sampled to 48 kHz !    (indeed, my DAC display 48 kHz input when I play a 24/192 file ! )
  
 --> I wonder therefore is the side effects (at least with High res files) are not compensating the positive effect of OOYH
  
*2 - *since it run ONLY on a PC or a MAC, it require to use a computer as a source while I much prefer dedicated Music server like Aurender, ARIES, LUMIN....
  
  
 Does anybody know if some HARDWARE solutions, inserted in the chain after (or before) the DAC, provide the same result than OOYH ? 
  
* Some sort of DSP for Headphone that...really works !?*


----------



## darinf

bmichels said:


> I still love OOYH, but looking at it's secs, I am a little concerned to use it for my "audiophile" listening with my TOL system.
> 
> Indeed,
> 
> ...


  
 Here is a response I wrote to someone else regarding this issue:
  
 


> Because Out Of Your Head processes all audio at 48KHz/32bit, all audio being fed to Out Of Your Head must be downsampled to that sample rate.
> 
> I realize that high res audio will have to be downsampled, but the CPU requirements for processing 8 channels of audio at high res was just too demanding.
> 
> ...


 
  


bmichels said:


> *2 - *since it run ONLY on a PC or a MAC, it require to use a computer as a source while I much prefer dedicated Music server like Aurender, ARIES, LUMIN....
> 
> 
> Does anybody know if some HARDWARE solutions, inserted in the chain after (or before) the DAC, provide the same result than OOYH ?
> ...


 
  Sounds like you might want a Smyth Realiser.


----------



## bmichels

darinf said:


> Sounds like you might want a Smyth Realiser.


 
 Thanks, but then I will need to use the DAC inside the Smyth Realiser instead of my beloved TOL DAC !?


----------



## ibbeebee

Well I have finally got the program to work but in almost all cases I prefer the straight Dragonfly hf5's without processing & when I turn on WASAPI the is a further step up.
 But I was listening to the surround files on the website & would love to have that effect in games.
 The _Rebecca Pidgeon_ Track sounded quite good, but with a bit to much treble emphasis & some sibilance on the vocal, the detail was wonderful thought. So like the Curates egg it was good in parts,I would have liked to have the option to turn the processing on & off on the _Rebecca Pidgeon_ track  to see how much it changed. Regards ibbeebee


----------



## laserjet6

Hi all,
  
 I just installed the OOYH trial and very much like the effect for movies.
 However, I have one problem - interruptions in audio every 11 or so seconds. The audio stops for a split second and then resumes.
  
 This happens both, using MPC HC and foobar2000 for music.
 I am using an external DAC for headphones.
 MPC HC is configured for DS to OOYH and my DAC is selected in OOYH. I hear the sound just fine, but with the interruptions.
 The same happens in foobar using both DS or WASAPI to OOYH (re-sampled to 48khz).
  
 Is that a limitation of the trial version or am I doing something wrong?
  
 Also, I am surprised I cannot output 44.1khz to OOYH - Am I doing something wrong or is it indeed not supported?
  
 Thank you


----------



## olegausany

Everything what is processed by OOYH has to be resampled first to 48000


----------



## bpinnell

On the topic of the 48KHz limit, I had the same reservations as I can easily hear the benefits of higher bit rate.  I have a lot of hi-res music both stereo and multichannel, so I didn't want to have those benefits wasted.  YMMV, but I was pleased to find that higher bit rates still sounded better even though they were being down-sampled to 48KHz.  I tried downsampling to 48KHz myself first thinking it would be the same or better, and noticed it wasn't.  Obviously it is difficult to compare hi-res processed versus unprocessed, but the benefits of the virtual speaker presentation are still very compelling for me as someone with a hi-res collection.


----------



## darinf

laserjet6 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just installed the OOYH trial and very much like the effect for movies.
> However, I have one problem - interruptions in audio every 11 or so seconds. The audio stops for a split second and then resumes.
> ...


 
 Hi Laserjet6,
  
 Can you let me know what your computer specs are? Mainly CPU model and speed and RAM.
  
 One thing that can cause audio glitches or skipping is not having the CPU power settings set to 100% especially on laptops or older CPU's.
  
You can find this setting by clicking "Change Advanced Power Settings" in the Windows Power Options control panel.
 
And then look under, "Processor Power Management". Set the minimum processor state to 100% and see if that fixes the problem.
 
If not, it's possible your CPU is having trouble keeping up, but we'll see if that's possible once I get your CPU specs.
 
Also, I assume that you don't get the sound glitches if Out Of Your Head is not running.
 
-Darin


----------



## VandyMan

darinf said:


> Yes, it would be cool, but the math required boggles my mind.
> 
> The other problem is that I think the ear scanners would have to scan your whole ear, pinnae included. Not sure if they can do that or not.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I understand that the math would be very complex. It might well require many hours of processing to generate a correction. I was not proposing this as something you should do, but rather as my thoughts on where this is all going eventually. I also agree that the scans as done today for CIEMs may well not cover all parts of the ear needed for this application. However, I disagree with your violin analogy. This is much closer to room correction or speaker placement. For example, there is speaker placement software that can do calculations from a 3D model of the room and can even take into account furniture, materials, etc. A technique akin to ray casting is used.


----------



## laserjet6

darinf said:


> Hi Laserjet6,
> 
> Can you let me know what your computer specs are? Mainly CPU model and speed and RAM.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Darin,
  
 You were right - it was the minimum processor state. I had it set to 5%, though the maximum was set to 100%. I guess the glitches are caused when the processor can't switch from minimum to maximum state fast enough. Nonetheless, I set it to 100% and there are no more interruptions, at least in the 2 min that trial allows.
 Thank you for you help.
 I am running an old desktop with Core 2 Duo @3.6 Ghz, which gets to somewhere between 5 - 15% playing music with OOYH on.
  
 Some thoughts from me.
 I think the idea is absolutely brilliant and your execution is really good. I do enjoy it as much as possible given that I listen with someone else head 
 When I close my eyes and try to imagine the room, I can really hear it, with speaker placement and all. (btw, pictures of the rooms would be really nice)
 It is a good idea to give people the option to create their own measurements of rooms. Maybe even a community sharing the presets would be possible some day.
 Atmos or DTS X may also be stunning and potentially a good selling point - Its easy for people to get a relatively OK 5.1 home cinema on a budget. But a 22 speaker setup...
  
 On latency side: Would OOYH benefit from many cores, as for example encoding or decoding video does?
 If so, it might be an idea to offload the processing to GPU (or integrated GPU).
 Latency is really only an issue for gamers - and I would like to imagine a future like this:
 Intel Skylake processor with quite capable integrated GPU, DirectX 12 giving you more access to hardware allowing to optimize processing in iGPU, OOYH with max 50ms latency - processed in iGPU, and a separate GPU for gaming of course.
  
 I really like your software and I hope you will continue to develop the app and add more options, presets, etc.
 I am not sure if I will buy it now, because I would need to replace my media streamer with a PC in the living room, as that is really where I would want to use it - so the overall investment would be high for me now. But I hope I will be able to do that one day, only to use OOYH listening to big buck speakers in a flat and still not have my neighbors complaining.
  


bpinnell said:


> On the topic of the 48KHz limit, I had the same reservations as I can easily hear the benefits of higher bit rate.  I have a lot of hi-res music both stereo and multichannel, so I didn't want to have those benefits wasted.  YMMV, but I was pleased to find that higher bit rates still sounded better even though they were being down-sampled to 48KHz.  I tried downsampling to 48KHz myself first thinking it would be the same or better, and noticed it wasn't.  Obviously it is difficult to compare hi-res processed versus unprocessed, but the benefits of the virtual speaker presentation are still very compelling for me as someone with a hi-res collection.


 
  
 Hi bpinnell,
 To be honest I don't care much for "high res" music. I believe that 44.1khz is at the limits of my hearing. I cannot hear any other frequencies that 88.2khz or higher allows.
 Nonetheless, up-sampling from 44.1 to 48 may not be optimal, I think, as its not linear 1:2 conversion.
 But I understand that 48khz is the priority for Darin now, as the software really has the biggest benefit when watching to movies with multichannel audio, which is almost always 48khz.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I t joined Massdrop today and became the 58th person to get this drop. I look forward to getting it on Thursday.


----------



## darinf

laserjet6 said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> You were right - it was the minimum processor state. I had it set to 5%, though the maximum was set to 100%. I guess the glitches are caused when the processor can't switch from minimum to maximum state fast enough. Nonetheless, I set it to 100% and there are no more interruptions, at least in the 2 min that trial allows.
> Thank you for you help.
> ...


 
 Glad you got it working.
  
 And thank you for posting your impressions and feedback.
  
 Regarding latency, yes, we have looked at using the GPU, but haven't done it yet. We are getting close to releasing a new engine which brings down the latency on games down to under 50ms. This will be a free upgrade to current owners.
  
 Regarding your living room setup, yes, you would require some type of Windows or Mac computer hooked up to your TV. Unfortunately we don't have a hardware solution yet. Not sure if I ever want to get into the hardware business. But someday I could see licensing our technology to a hardware manufacturer.
  
 But even if you don't want to connect a laptop to your TV, (I don't have one in my living room) I do find that being able to watch movies or listen to megabuck speakers when I am on a plane, at the airport, in a hotel room, or at my desk, is awesome. I use Out Of Your Head all the time even though I rarely use it on my living room TV.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin, I just got a paid of LCD X from FedEx yesterday, and I finally have had an opportunity to give your software a fair "Hearing".  It ought to tell you something that I joined the Massdrop for this software today about an hour ago.
  
 The software makes a big difference in the listenability of my LCD X's.  As an old speaker guy who's owned everything from Rogers LS3/5a's to Aerial Accoustic 10t's to Martin Logan CLS's, I place a premium on having sound that is not In my head and I think your software is a huge step in the right direction.
  
 That said, I find that this software is the most problematic software on my machine.  Sometimes it will run In Direct mode, other times not, some times it will run in WASAPI, other times not.  I am running JRiver 20, and a Dell Inspiron 3531 with a Celeron processor Dual Core N2830.  My principal music source is Tidal, which feeds into JRiver which in turn runs into OOYH. 
  
 Btw, I have followed you instruction to the letter, bitdepth is 32 bit floating point, everything is converted to 48k Sampling rate, it's set for 7.1 channels, and playback choice is either OOYH Direct or OOYH Wasapi, and it works and fails intermittently.  I am using a GO1000 as my DAC/amp. 
  
 I think two things about this problem.  (1)  The software really needs its own Asio driver to insure proper operation, and (2) It would be extremely helpful if you could supply some sort of information on what processor is need to run the software without hiccups. (Is an Intel Core i7 needed, for example, and what about memory?)
  
 I also notice that the display in the control panel seems to flicker, is this normal, or is it a sign I'm underpowered? 
  
 I am less bothered about the software running a 48 sampling, though 96 or 192 would be nice.  (Don't know if it would be audible, but it couldn;'t hurt).
  
 Also, it would be helpful if any updates/improvements were posted on a forum such as head-fi.
  
 At some point, I may want to visit if some of these issues are ironed out to get a few personal presets.  I am finding that the four that work the best for me are Sasha, Genelec. Magical, and Accoustic Zen Crescendo.  There are also a few high end speakers I would kill to have a preset for, Linkwitz LX521's foremost among them.
  
 I hope I'm not sounding too harsh in my criticism here, I think it's a teriffic product, and I like it enough to have already bought it, I just think it needs some work to make it less tempermental.
  
 Best regards


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin, one other question, having read the thread on how you make PRIR for the Smyth SVS Realizer, it seems you are deriving the surround and center channel on the 5.1 and 7.1 setups on a variety of these presets.  Is there any preset where the center and surround and subwoofer channels are captured from actual dedicated center and surround channels? 
  
 Also, I notice some of the presets are 5.1 channel.  What happens when actual 7.1 channel material is played over say JRiver and such a preset is engaged?  Doesn't this result in two channels not being played at all?


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> Darin, I just got a paid of LCD X from FedEx yesterday, and I finally have had an opportunity to give your software a fair "Hearing".  It ought to tell you something that I joined the Massdrop for this software today about an hour ago.
> 
> The software makes a big difference in the listenability of my LCD X's.  As an old speaker guy who's owned everything from Rogers LS3/5a's to Aerial Accoustic 10t's to Martin Logan CLS's, I place a premium on having sound that is not In my head and I think your software is a huge step in the right direction.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi phoenixdogfan,
 Thanks you for posting your impressions and feedback. Not harsh at all. I welcome all constructive criticism, good or bad. (Believe me there is a LOT more really harsh criticism out there about Out Of Your Head.)
  
 Generally if you get WASAPI to work in JRiver, it should work fairly consistently. When WASAPI does not work, what happens? Is there just no sound? Does it crash? Do you notice any correlation between sampling rates of the original audio file and WASAPI working or not?
  
 With Direct Sound mode, you should disable the JRiver DSP settings altogether. But that's easy to do without losing your WASAPI settings. Just uncheck the DSP box to turn off those settings.
  
 I use my GO 1000 and 450 all the time without issue.
  
 For CPU requirements, it varies especially if you are listening to two channel music or decoding a 1080p H.264 video and 8 channels of audio. For just music, the slowest computer I have tested is a fairly old Core2Duo T7800 2.8Ghz laptop. But that computer will not play a movie and 5.1 audio perfectly smoothly. I think your computer should be OK. But you might want to make sure your CPU power is set to 100% to see if that makes a difference. (See an earlier post in this thread.)
  
 The flickering of the GUI is normal. (I am not a very good GUI programmer.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  
 I am not allowed to post product announcements here on Head-Fi as a "Member of the Trade" only "Sponsors" can do that. (Someday I hope to be successful enough to become a sponsor.) But you can sign up for our newsletter on our website.
  
 Yes, I know the software is not a "plug and play" or stable as it should be. It will over time and has gotten better. It was way worse before! But there's definitely lots of room for improvement. Like most software development there's always the balance between bug fixes and new features, etc.
  
 Regardless, Thank you for you support of Out Of Your Head.
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> Darin, one other question, having read the thread on how you make PRIR for the Smyth SVS Realizer, it seems you are deriving the surround and center channel on the 5.1 and 7.1 setups on a variety of these presets.  Is there any preset where the center and surround and subwoofer channels are captured from actual dedicated center and surround channels?
> 
> Also, I notice some of the presets are 5.1 channel.  What happens when actual 7.1 channel material is played over say JRiver and such a preset is engaged?  Doesn't this result in two channels not being played at all?


 
 Generally the recording studios and home theater presets are true 5.1 or 7.1 systems. The uber expensive speakers are almost always only 2 speakers. (It's not likely that an owner would buy 4 pairs of their $200,000 speakers to use for a 7.1 system!)
  
 If you play a 7.1 track on a 5.1 preset, the extra two channels are not played at all. The same if you played 5.1 audio into a 2.0 preset, you would only hear the L and R channels. In those cases, I would recommend setting up JRiver to downmix the audio to match the number of channels in the preset.


----------



## MAMBACFA

I heard the OOYH demo and was blown away! The home theater preset was the most interesting for me. I have a very nice two channel system for listening to music, but the opportunity to watch movies in a surround-sound environment was the clincher for me. I would not invest in a surround system for movies, but to get the equivalent audio experience for such a small price is the deal of a lifetime. A steal at this modest price. 
  
 Then I tried some of the other presets for listening to music, and I was blown away a second time! I'm listening through Sennheiser HD800 cans, which are known for having a great soundstage. But after listening with the OutOfYourHead software, my HD800s sounded like the music was "in my head" and compressed. OK, we know that even the best headphones can't match the experience of listening to speakers in a good room. At least, that WAS true BEFORE the OutOfYourHead software was available! These give you the best of both worlds: the sound of world-class speakers without the problems caused by the limitations of ordinary listening rooms. What could be better?


----------



## warth0g

So is there any word on an iOS version? Seems to have been "coming soon" for a couple of years now.. I'm not sure I want to use this in my music chain, and the only time I listen to movies on headphones is on my iPad. I'm definitely interested in having virtual 5.1 in that scenario - an idea when this is likely to show up?


----------



## darinf

warth0g said:


> So is there any word on an iOS version? Seems to have been "coming soon" for a couple of years now.. I'm not sure I want to use this in my music chain, and the only time I listen to movies on headphones is on my iPad. I'm definitely interested in having virtual 5.1 in that scenario - an idea when this is likely to show up?


 
 Thanks for posting. All I can say is "the best laid plans..." Way back when, I thought the iOS version was not far away, but we decided to shift our focus to a low latency version. Hence the iOS version was pushed back. I cannot even speculate on the availability of the iOS version at this point. We are working on it, but I just don't know how long it's going to take to get past a lot of technical hurdles for mobile devices.
  
 The other issue with mobile devices is that there is really no multi-channel content available. It will be fine for two channel content, but none of the content providers provide 5.1 or 7.1 content on mobile devices. In theory you could provide your own content by ripping DVD's or Blu-Ray's to your mobile device, but even then, there aren't many, if any media player apps that support multi-channel audio. (Do you know of any? I would love to find some.)
  
 We'll keep you posted when the iOS version is coming. Keep an eye on our website or sign up for our newsletter. I won't be able to announce it here.


----------



## warth0g

Thanks very much for the update, that does make sense. I guess I didn't think that through - you're probably right that Netflix, HBO etc don't stream in multichannel so I guess this wouldn't work. One for the future then!


----------



## Sarurururu

Hi Darin & everyone,
  
 I am new to JRiver as I just downloaded it couple days ago. Initially, I encountered severe clipping issue like many others. Not until Darin gave me advice on certain settings, I now am able to overcome the issue amongst most of my collections except few Hi-Res recordings. Just now I figure out one thing, there's a *volume control on JRiver right under the PLAY button* (top left corner) which helps to eliminate clipping as well (other than the internal volume control from OPTION).
 ps. forgot to mention, I use WASAPI set up.
  
 With the use of this, I can even crank up the output channel on OOYH to 100% without having a single click. I understand my suggestion might sound a bit silly & obvious, but like I mentioned at the beginning, I am just a amateur here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lastly Darin, may I ask you when will Massdrop send out the code since I just can't wait to buy couple more presets?
  
 Cheers,
 William


----------



## darinf

sarurururu said:


> Hi Darin & everyone,
> 
> I am new to JRiver as I just downloaded it couple days ago. Initially, I encountered severe clipping issue like many others. Not until Darin gave me advice on certain settings, I now am able to overcome the issue amongst most of my collections except few Hi-Res recordings. Just now I figure out one thing, there's a *volume control on JRiver right under the PLAY button* (top left corner) which helps to eliminate clipping as well (other than the internal volume control from OPTION).
> ps. forgot to mention, I use WASAPI set up.
> ...


 
 Hi William,
  
 Glad you got everything working and avoiding any clipping.
  
 I do not know when Massdrop is sending out the codes. I sent them the codes today, so they should be sending them out soon. But it's up to them now. I cannot send the codes myself.
  
 Thank you for your purchase!
 -Darin


----------



## arnaud

Hi Darin,
  
 What is the latency for the current version for OS X (1.03g)?
  
 cheers,
 arnaud


----------



## darinf

arnaud said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> What is the latency for the current version for OS X (1.03g)?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @arnaud ,
 Currently on most Macs, the latency is around 250ms.


----------



## arnaud

Thanks Darin


----------



## john57

I brought the software and choose the Technicolor Studios preset because it has the clearest center channel for dialog.


----------



## Hansotek

Just installed OOYH yesterday after picking up the MassDrop deal. I've been loving the AcousticZen setting with the Beyerdynamic T1 and the K701!


----------



## darinf

john57 said:


> I brought the software and choose the Technicolor Studios preset because it has the clearest center channel for dialog.


 
  
  


hansotek said:


> Just installed OOYH yesterday after picking up the MassDrop deal. I've been loving the AcousticZen setting with the Beyerdynamic T1 and the K701!


 
 Thanks for posting and thank you for your purchase! I am always happy to see people enjoying Out Of Your Head as much as I do.


----------



## john57

One of the things I noticed on my Win7 64 is that I have more than one sound card. You can not have a default device and a default communications device at the same time otherwise the software just does not work very well. I enjoy using the Technicolor Studios preset since with many movies the dialog gets buried with all the sound effects or the people are whispering in the movie.  That tells me how important is the center channel. I may get one more preset at this time. I have narrow down with three presets. Initially I was using the Stargate Continuum and   Les Miserables movies. I have to try with other movies and headphones as well.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I took advantage of the Massdrop offer and got the SASHA setting. While I cannot verify that the setting exactly imitates Wilson Sashas because, for one thing, I've never heard a pair demonstrated, I can tell everyone as an audiophile of 40+ years who has owned a number of high end system and heard countless others demonstrated that this plug in playing through my Audeze Lcdx/GO1000 system gives a very crediblle imitation of a high end audio speaker setup playing in a well tuned room.

Darin was also very helpful in resolving some issues my computer was having with the download. 

Great deal with great service. It would be hard for me to imagine a comparable $75-150 expenditure which could do more to improve the quality of an audio system.


----------



## john57

I did brought my Out Of Your Head software using massdrop. The SASHA is the best of the 2 channel preset in my opinion but got the Technicolor Studios since it was a 7.1 preset. Still valuating other presets since I have several headphones.


----------



## darinf

Hi everyone,
  
 Thanks again for all of you that purchased the Massdrop.
  
 I am looking for PC gamers that play FPS games or any surround audio games. PM or e-mail us if you are interested in helping us with beta testing.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## john57

I just decided to purchase  the Acoustic Zen Maestro Speaker preset after trying on several DVD, Blu-Ray and headphones. I am now all set. I would like a lite version of the control panel with just the presets I have ordered.


----------



## TheBigMuse

HI,
 I am interested in all of those virtual surround simulators. The question is-Does it really worth the money?
 I won't be able to try it before buying so i have to rely on you guys..
 Cheers


----------



## john57

Are you able to run the trial version of the program?


----------



## Hansotek

thebigmuse said:


> HI,
> I am interested in all of those virtual surround simulators. The question is-Does it really worth the money?
> I won't be able to try it before buying so i have to rely on you guys..
> Cheers



You can download a demo of the software on their website and try it out.


----------



## TheBigMuse

Thanks, I'll give it a try.
 Are there any alternatives i should try? Or is it the only good software out there?
 And how is it used with potplayer, Foobar etc.?
 Thanks


----------



## Brooko

Works wonderfully with Foobar.  Just specify output to the OOYH driver.


----------



## Hansotek

thebigmuse said:


> Thanks, I'll give it a try.
> Are there any alternatives i should try? Or is it the only good software out there?
> And how is it used with potplayer, Foobar etc.?
> Thanks



Well there are other headphone surround sound options (soundcards, etc.), but they are totally different. OOYH totally fools your brain into thinking the sound is coming from outside the headphone. I've never gotten that with anything else. Sometimes you might get it for a moment, but OOYH does it all the time. It is truly, truly weird. It's very much worth a try, IMO.


----------



## john57

The OOYH software records the actual sound effects of various high end speaker setups not a simulation.


----------



## CaptainHook

The OOYH website is down today. The host, GoDaddy says the domain name has expired and needs to be renewed. I'm one of the Massdrop buyers and got my license but I guess I'll have to wait until it's back up before I do an install.


----------



## CaptainHook

OOYH website is back on line this afternoon. Fast work, Darin. Thanks for this impressive software. I demo'd DTS Headphone-X at CES 2013(?), maybe it was 2014. It was my first experience with virtual surround sound playback through headphones. It was also impressive with virtual 11.1 surround in a controlled environment, custom engineered for playback through a Sennheiser portable headphone, but it's progress and market penetration has been less than stellar so far. OOYH has the right software at the right time for this untapped market. Your online pre-rendered demo's are genius productions to show off OOYH's capabilities. Congrats, Darin.


----------



## darinf

john57 said:


> I just decided to purchase  the Acoustic Zen Maestro Speaker preset after trying on several DVD, Blu-Ray and headphones. I am now all set. I would like a lite version of the control panel with just the presets I have ordered.


 
 Hi @john57 ,
  
 Thank you for your purchase!
  
 I think you are on Windows. If you like, you can go to the Out Of Your Head install directory:
 C:\Program Files (x86)\Darin Fong Audio\Out Of Your Head\
  
 In that directory, you will see a ".cef" and a ".inf" file for each of the speaker presets. If you move all the presets you don't want to see to another folder or a subfolder, then they will not appear when you launch Out Of Your Head.
  
 Out Of Your Head just scans the install directory for all the preset files and shows a list of whatever it finds in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
  
 If you ever want to try any of the "missing" presets, just copy those preset files back to the Out Of Your Head install directory.
  
 -Darin


----------



## john57

Your idea of removing the unused presets does not work otherwise the program will try to reinstall itself.


----------



## furthersky

Hi Darin,
  
 Just wondering which preset did you use for the Hotel California and Pink Floyd songs on your demo page.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## darinf

john57 said:


> Your idea of removing the unused presets does not work otherwise the program will try to reinstall itself.


 
 Right, I forgot about that Windows "feature". Let me see if I can figure out a workaround for that.


----------



## darinf

furthersky said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> Just wondering which preset did you use for the Hotel California and Pink Floyd songs on your demo page.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 I am pretty sure those were made with the Acoustic Zen preset.


----------



## darinf

> Originally Posted by *john57*
> 
> 
> Your idea of removing the unused presets does not work otherwise the program will try to reinstall itself.


 
 Quote: 





darinf said:


> Right, I forgot about that Windows "feature". Let me see if I can figure out a workaround for that.


 
  
 I just tried it on my Windows 8.1 system and I was able to move the speaker preset .inf and .cef files to a subfolder. When I launched Out Of Your Head, Windows did not try to reinstall Out Of Your Head. Out Of Your Head just ran and the removed speaker preset files did not appear in the list of speaker presets.
  
 Make sure you are not moving any other files. Only move the .cef and .inf files that are speaker presets. Those files begin with "DAR0000X". If you move any other files from the Out Of Your Head install directory, Out Of Your Head may try to reinstall the missing files or not run.
  
 Or maybe there is some system setting that is making your system behave differently than mine. I will double check on a few other computers.
  
 -Darin


----------



## john57

I tried again on my Win7 64bit with one unused preset into a sub folder at different places, no luck since the program is trying to find the install file.


----------



## darinf

john57 said:


> I tried again on my Win7 64bit with one unused preset into a sub folder at different places, no luck since the program is trying to find the install file.


 
 Hmm...I just tried moving one preset to a subfolder on another Windows 8.1 machine and a Windows 7 machine and neither complained or tried to reinstall Out Of Your Head.
  
 So, if you leave all the presets in the Out Of Your Head install directory, Out Of Your Head runs fine.
 Then you copy one .inf and .cef file to a subdirectory in the Out Of Your Head install directory, and when you launch Out Of Your Head , Windows tries to find the installer and will not launch Out Of Your Head?
  
 Just making sure I understand what's happening on your system.
  
 -Darin


----------



## DougD

john57 said:


> I tried again on my Win7 64bit with one unused preset into a sub folder at different places, no luck since the program is trying to find the install file.


 
 That wouldn't happen to be the preset that OOYH is currently set to be using, is it ?


----------



## Sarurururu

Hi Darin,
  
 I have encountered an ongoing problem when using OOYH, the music has been cut off intermittently which is quite annoying. First I thought it was my computer so I've done a fair bit of system tuning (uninstalled loads of programs, clean up the hard drive, free up the memories (8G) etc). I even switch off Antivirus, Wifi & bluetooth while playing music, still couldn't get rid of that cut off issue.
  
 When I redirect the output from JRiver straight to my Aune T1 (totally bypass OOYH), it works fine. While running OOYH, I opened the system tools to check the CPU as well as RAM usage and it showed there was plenty of buffer left if needed.
  
 My set up are listed as below:
  
 Win 7
 intel i5
 8G RAM
 JRiver
 DAC: Aune T1 + Telefunken
 Pangea silver USB
  
 Would you please give me some advice? 
  
 Cheers,
 William


----------



## darinf

sarurururu said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> I have encountered an ongoing problem when using OOYH, the music has been cut off intermittently which is quite annoying. First I thought it was my computer so I've done a fair bit of system tuning (uninstalled loads of programs, clean up the hard drive, free up the memories (8G) etc). I even switch off Antivirus, Wifi & bluetooth while playing music, still couldn't get rid of that cut off issue.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi William,
  
 Sorry about my delayed response. For some reason my Head-Fi notifications aren't working... But, if you ever need a quick response, please e-mail us directly through our website.
  
 When you say, the music is being "cut off", what do you mean exactly? Does the sound output stop completely? Then what do you have to do to get the sound working again?
  
 How often does this happen? If you leave Out Of Your Head running, but no music playing, will the sound work when you start playing music again?
  
 I assume you are using a licensed preset? Which preset are you using?
  
 Let me know more information and we can get it sorted out. Or feel free to take this discussion "offline" and e-mail us directly.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 I've been a huge fan of OOYH, using it to send 2.0 stereo tracks to OOYH's L/R channels. For a while I only used 5.1 with movies. Lately, I've been experimenting with audio files mixed for 5.1. Some are done well and some are horrible, but using the full multi-speaker arrays that are replicated in OOYH yielded great results in general. So, I attempted various configurations of software to upmix 2.0 files.
  
 Long story short, the most satisfying audiophile solution I've found, so far, has been using Pure Music's multichannel matrix. I send the 2.0 tracks to OOYH's L/R and SL/SR. I then mix the pairs to get the balance I want and to attenuate the levels to keep from clipping (the level being sent to OOYH is of course doubled). I also use a pro stereo widening plugin on the surround channels. The end product has been the most convincing emulation of loudspeakers I've been able to manage yet. 
  
 If you're using OOYH for 2.0 audio and only using the L/R channels, I encourage experimenting with mixing in the surround speakers as well. 
  
 I know this isn't true upmixing, but it produces far better results than e.g., JRiver's upmixing algorithm. I'm still trying to find a way to chain software together to access pro level plugins like Pento or Auro, but still haven't cracked it. If you know of a host that can support 5.1 AU plugins please let me know.


----------



## SavantGarde

edwardsean said:


> If you know of a host that can support 5.1 AU plugins please let me know.


 
Reaper does. In the past, I've successfully used TB Isone Surround with Reaper, to process multichannel sound sent from XBMC (via Soundflower).


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 Thanks for posting. I've seem Reaper around but didn't think about it for this application. I work on Logic and have gone through some other workstations in the past. Do you use Reaper though for playing music files? Isn't that complicated with a workstation?


----------



## Paradigm

Darin I am having an issue with the software. I updated OOYH from version 1_1J to 1_1J2.
  
 When the installation is complete I get a message from windows.

  

  
  
 So basically the new driver for 64 bit OS is not digitally signed? Is this just happening to me or anyone else cause I can no longer launch OHYH nor do i see the drivers in player devices present.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Darin I am having an issue with the software. I updated OOYH from version 1_1J to 1_1J2.
> 
> When the installation is complete I get a message from windows.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Paradigm,
  
 Thanks for posting.
  
 All the versions of our driver are definitely digitally signed. No one else has reported this problem so far.
 Maybe try:

Uninstall Out Of Your Head.
Then go into your "C:\Windows\System32\drivers" folder and delete the "outofyourhead.sys" file.
Then delete the directory "C:\Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\msvad.inf_amd64_" (The rest of the directory name is different on every system, but check the directory and make sure there is an "outofyourhead.sys" file in the directory BEFORE you delete it.)
Then reboot
Download the Out Of Your Head trial installer again.
Then try installing Out Of Your Head again.
  
 The only reason I can think of that is causing the "not signed" error is if the driver files somehow got corrupted or changed. This would "break" the digital signature.
 Please feel free to e-mail us directly if you still have problems or you can post here.
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

I restored my system to an image I made 4 months earlier. Seems to have fixed the problem.
  
 Edit: It seems my licences are no longer working anymore. Might this have to do with the fact that I added an additional SSD and 3TB drive to my system?
  
*Thank you so much for the professional prompt response Darin and help provided via Email. My OFYH is fully functional and ready to go.*


----------



## MrYman

Managed to read to page 21, rest awaiting... great thread, lots of useful info.

I got to this page when searching for reviews to get a good surround headset. Bro bought Logitech G35 which I kinda liked for movies but not at all for music, since I own HD600 and DT770. Then looked at Sennheiser RT 775 and probably would buy those if not for OOYH. So am really happy to find this product, which costs as much as that G35... 

Now I won't need to have three headpones on my desk, but just the two I enjoy.... 

I was mainly looking to get surround headset for movies, since I watch them only late at night, so I have two questions for now:

1. To avoid clipping I figured already by myself I have to lower either media player output or OOYH input.... is there any difference to which one I lower re sound quality?

2. There are many profiles, I got myself Magico for movies but seems to me I might buy another one for music... of course I'll test what sounds best to my ears but I still like to hear other people opinions....

I liked this sharing on this thread:



> My favorite presets with HD650's are as follows:
> #1 Genelec Recording Studio (all around good)
> #2 Italian Speakers (music + Movies)
> #3 Sasha (certain Classical albums)
> #4 AZen Maestro (movies)




First diciding factors will be my ears, but say if I like 3 profiles about the same and I want to get 1 of those 3, I'll decide also with help of you all 

So, shoot out your favorites. I guess others might benefit from such sharings as well.


----------



## Hansotek

Sure. I like the beyerdynamic T1 and the AKG701 with the Acoustic Zen 5.1 and the Cello Speakers settings. They are both a little bass light, which balances well with those settings. The T1's incredible depth really shines with OOYH. All the people I've demoed it with look downright shocked when they try it. The K701 plus OOYH sounds nearly as good. With John Coltrane's 1961 Village Vanguard concert, it sounds like you're actually there. Quite magical.


----------



## olegausany

I really enjoy my modded HD800 when using Mag mini and PSB presets and based on my experience you can't have just one preset to cover wide selection of music


----------



## MrYman

The "out of head" effect is really kicking in, I think I "got it".... it's such a huge difference... I am really not sure if I like it better for music than "in head" effect. I kinda really like it to feel "music within me". It's true though, I never had good speakers and when at home I am listening only with my headphones, so probably that's why it seems I don't prefer "out of head" effect. I guess thought that those with good speakers setup prefer this kind of "out of head" sound?

  
 But on the other hand, I think I might change my mind in future.... I'll keep listening to music with OOYH for some time and then decide. It does sound strange (worse) when I switch it off after longer listening periods....

  
 As for movies, this product is really a winner, it stays with me, forever  In SMPlayer I set audio delay to 450ms and sync of vide/audio seems right. As for games I yet have to try, but that's no priority for anyway....


----------



## olegausany

I would recommend foobar2000 with SoX resampler for music


----------



## MrYman

Yes, I got that in foobar... in this order: 1. Channel Mixer, 2. Dolby Headphone and  3. Resampler (SoX). I'll compare that with no DSPs + OOYH. And BTW, my DAC is CA DacMagic Plus.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Hi,MrYMan,
  
 I have a couple of recommendations for pre-sets for you,as well as a headphone rec.
  
 As I'm sure we all realize, all these presets can sound completely different to any two individuals because of the variations between those individuals' respective HRTFs.
  
 But even so I have three strong recommendations:
  
 1. Genelec Studio for Movies.  This preset is so detailed and neutral, it works startlingly well in 5 channel mode.  I was watching Netflix's Marco Polo episode 1 on the desktop 5.1 channel streaming version and the sound track sounded exactly like a high end home theatre. Absolutely breathtaking. 
  
 2. Sasha for music.  The thing I like about this preset is the complete absence of metallic coloration in the highs.  Wilson uses only fabric dome tweeters and the difference is quite audible in its naturalness.  Some audiphiles may feel that metallic dome tweeters add a sense of liveliness to high frequency material, I feel they just add ringing. The Wilsons also do a nice job integrating lower midrange to the upper bass region, which is a real achilles heel for most speaker designs.  Their major shortcoming is in the deep bass which is of course a subtractive fault, and may not even be noticeable depending on your choice of phones. But there is a third choice that retains most of Wilsons virtues while having a much better bass response.
  
 3.  JM Labs Focal Utopia.  They sound slightly zippier than the Wilsons, but not terribly annoyingly so, They work well both for 2 channel music and 5.1 channel cinema, and they do go deep.  A great 7,1 channel all rounder.
  
  
 Don't know if you are in the market for a flagship headphone, but I don;t see how you could go wrong with a pair of LCD X's.  Expensive to be sure, but really easy to drive.  I'm driving mine with a LHGO1000 and am extremely happy with the sound (and I am EXTREMELY PICKY). I chose the LCD X's because I did not want to own three headphones, 4 headphone amps/dacs, and 3 sets of cables, and spend half my life trying mods to tame an "accurate" but "ruthlessly revealing" top end.  I just wanted to relax and listen to music and watch movies,  I wanted to shed the "audiophile" hair shirt, and the Audeze's with OOYH lets me do that.  Also, I find the headphone to be extremely comfortable as long as I'm leaning back in a chair with a good headrest.  The black finish with lambskin pads have the look  and feel of a high end luxury product and actually found them brand new at a discount.  I've also invested in the Sonnox Oxford Equalizer plug in which I will run through J River MC20.  I'm sure using Sonnox will take a great phone and make it a nearly perfect transducer. Again, don't see how you could go wrong with that phone. And it work wonderfully well with OOYH.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I have an issue I need resolved, and I'm hoping either Darin or another OOYH user can help me with it.
  
 Simply put, the OOYH software creates severe latency problems on my machine. (Dell Inspiron 3521 with Celeron Duo Core N2830 processor which has integrated graphics processing).
  
 I am using this machine to run streaming video and audio off the Net.  My Isp is Comcast 105 extreme and I use a Motorola SBG 6580 N300 Dual Band Router/Modem which is giving me a consistent 50 MBPS stream which I'm using to run Netflix, Hulu, SlingTV, Tidal, and some streaming from Kodi (Genesis video add on).  
  
 I also own the HeaDSPeaker unit which I am using for multi channel Home Theatre listening. 
  
 I am using JRiver JM20 as my media player, and Avast is my antivirus.
  
 My problem is OOYH sounds absolutely gorgeous, and is very usable for 2 channel listening over TIDAL.  It sound equally gorgeous for multi channel listening when streaming video, but introduces horrendous amounts of latency.  Typically when streaming Netflix Metro I'm getting 15-20 seconds of latency.  I've put the performance monitor in windows up side-by-side with Netflix as it streams while using OOYH and I'm seeing the processor top out frequently.  Not suprisingly, that when I get stalled video, and or audio and even more latency as a result.
 On the other hand HeaDSPeaker plays these streams through my machine with zero latency,  It just doesn't sound nearly as good as OOYH, which is why I'm bothering to try to address this issue.
  
 The problem is only exacerbated when I introduce JRiver into the playback chain-which I would like to do, since it offers a multitude of DSP programs which can equalize my phones.
  
 The way I see it, I need a new computer to play OOYH and stream Netflix and the other services.  OOYH when up and running is using as much as 50-60% of my processor, and I tried disabling my anitvirus which is also a processor hog, but it's not nearly enough to solve the problem.  
  
 I researched my machine and learned about PassMark scores from PC magazine, my processor scores around 1000 on its passmark score, which clearly seems on the very low side, looking at the benchmark page for these scores on their website.
  
 So what I think I need is some sort of idea (hopefully a very specific one) on what kind of machine I need to run my streaming applications through JRiver to OOYH in a way which minimizes latency.  I also understand some people are getting around 400ms latency when the program is running properly.  I assume this means the picture is 400ms ahead of the sound.
 Is Jriver capable of accepting and processing Netflix and other services video streams, because what needs to happen is the video needs to be delayed to properly sync it to the audio, it won't help if JRivers processing delays the audio because the video is ahead of the audio.v15
 I'm hoping for a very specific recommendation for a new computer, I can easily go as high as $1500 and have been looking at stuff like Alienware 15, Acer Aspire v15 Nitro, gaming machines (butI'm not a gamer), as well as HP Envy Slim I7 15t Quad, and even the I7 version of Microsoft Surface Pro 3.  I probably don't want to buy more PC than I need, but 4k is coming and, so then again, maybe a little bit of an overspend is not such a bad idea.
  
 What I would especially like is the experience of other OOYH users as to whether its possible to use my streaming config  (Netflix, Hulu, Sling ===>JRiver MC20===>OOYH===>LHGO===>Audeze LCDX, and what kind of PassMark score a machine capable of running that kind of score needs to have. Tne makers of Play On video player, for instance include a PassMark recommendation that let's their users know how much processor they will need to properly run the software.
  
 That being said OOYH runs 2 channel beautifully on a machine I'v paid all so $150 for, but obviously I'd like to get something that will handle home theatre channel applications to complete the experience.


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> I have an issue I need resolved, and I'm hoping either Darin or another OOYH user can help me with it.
> 
> Simply put, the OOYH software creates severe latency problems on my machine. (Dell Inspiron 3521 with Celeron Duo Core N2830 processor which has integrated graphics processing).
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @phoenixdogfan ,
  
 Thanks for posting.
 As you have found, your current system is simply not powerful enough to run multi-channel audio and stream or watch video at the same time. The oldest laptop I have is a Dell Core2Duo processor T7800 2.60 GHz, and that laptop can barely handle 1080p video and 8 channels of audio with Out Of Your Head. 
  
 The bottom line is that being software only, the processing requirements are significant to process 8 channels of audio while also decoding video, especially say h.264 1080p.
  
 However, I do have relatively inexpensive Intel laptops that can play everything perfectly without a problem. Those systems are i5 or i7 mobile processors. A desktop machine would be even faster. I have a 1st gen Surface Pro with an i5-3317U CPU that plays everything fine.
  
 I would say, any current gen i5 (I think most current machines for sale are 4th gen, but there may be some good deals on 3rd gen processors) would work fine. I suppose an i3 might work too, but I just haven't personally tested an i3 system. 
 So if you have a budget of $1500, any laptop for that price will be more than adequate for using Out Of Your Head. At that price point, I wouldn't worry about the specs for Out Of Your Head specifically. Just get what you want. I bought a refurbished Dell 13inch 2-in-1 i7-5500U laptop for under $600. A Surface Pro 3 should also work great (not the ARM based Surface, but a Surface Pro).
  
 The typical Windows system has about 400ms delay in the current release version. JRiver is capable of handling such a large offset.
  
 However, we are really close to releasing a new version of Out Of Your Head which has much lower latency. The new version adds about 30ms to 80ms latency to the existing latency in a given machine. I have found that on a typical Windows machine, I get about 40ms to 60ms latency with JRiver out to a USB DAC *without *Out Of Your Head running. With the low latency version of Out Of Your Head, the latency would be increased to about 70ms to 140ms, depending on the computer and the USB DAC. (BTW, JRiver to LH Geek Out on my systems has about 60ms latency without Out Of Your Head running.)
  
 This lower latency allows you to watch all content without worrying too much about audio sync. I watch Netflix and YouTube with the new version of Out Of Your Head all the time without any problems.
  
 The new version would require you to get a faster computer than you currently own, but most 3rd or 4th gen "i" core processors should be able to handle it, no problem.
 The new version will also be a free upgrade to existing customers.
  
 I am hoping to release the new version within a few weeks or less. The Mac OS X version will also get an upgrade to low latency as well at the same time.
  
 Thanks again for you post and let me know if you have any other questions. If you ever need a quicker response, please contact us directly via our website. 
  
 -Darin Fong


----------



## olegausany

Hi, Darin what about Windows 10 support?


----------



## darinf

olegausany said:


> Hi, Darin what about Windows 10 support?


 
 Hi @olegausany,
  
 The new low latency version supports Windows 10. We are waiting for Microsoft to release their C++ libraries (today, I think), so we can test further. Then hopefully we should be OK with Windows 10 support by the time Windows 10 is released at the end of this month.
  
 -Darin


----------



## olegausany

darinf said:


> olegausany said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, Darin what about Windows 10 support?
> ...



That good, thanks


----------



## Fox1977

When I migrate from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, will my licences still work ?
 I also have a minor issue : every time i want to use OOYH after i booted my computer, i have to launch the software, close it and launch it again, otherwise on the first launch, sound stops after two minutes, even though it detected licences fine...
 It's not a big deal, i just have to remember to launch/stop/relaunch the software, but still it's a bit annoying )


----------



## olegausany

fox1977 said:


> When I migrate from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, will my licences still work ?
> I also have a minor issue : every time i want to use OOYH after i booted my computer, i have to launch the software, close it and launch it again, otherwise on the first launch, sound stops after two minutes, even though it detected licences fine...
> It's not a big deal, i just have to remember to launch/stop/relaunch the software, but still it's a bit annoying )



Instead of relaunching just click Cancel when Buy licence popup appears but honestly it's annoying


----------



## darinf

fox1977 said:


> When I migrate from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, will my licences still work ?
> I also have a minor issue : every time i want to use OOYH after i booted my computer, i have to launch the software, close it and launch it again, otherwise on the first launch, sound stops after two minutes, even though it detected licences fine...
> It's not a big deal, i just have to remember to launch/stop/relaunch the software, but still it's a bit annoying )


 
  
  


olegausany said:


> Instead of relaunching just click Cancel when Buy licence popup appears but honestly it's annoying


 
 Hi @Fox1977
  
 When you migrate to Windows 10, you will need to email us your new UUID so we can send you a new license file. Also, the current release version will not run in Windows 10. You will have to upgrade to our yet to be released low latency version.
  
 Regarding the launching bug, @olegausany is right. Just click cancel when the Purchase License window opens. Then to get the sound started again, change to another speaker preset and switch back.
  
 Alternately, when Out Of Your Head first launches, just switch to another preset and back. This should prevent the two minute timer windows from popping up if you have a licensed preset selected.
  
 I am embarrassed to say that that is a known bug and we have worked a long time to try and fix it. Sadly, that same bug is still in the new low latency version. We just cannot figure out why that happens! We have tried everything. We'll keep working to fix that bug. I know it's pretty annoying. Sorry!
  
 -Darin


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin:
  
 Thank you for the quick reply. 
  
 I too experience the "launching bug" and it is annoying.
  
 The low latency version sound like just the ticket, do you have a roll out date yet?


----------



## MrYman

darinf said:


> When you migrate to Windows 10, you will need to email us your new UUID so we can send you a new license file. Also, the current release version will not run in Windows 10. You will have to upgrade to our yet to be released low latency version.


 
  
 When Win 10 comes I play to keep Win 8 on C: partition and install Win 10 on D: partition.... at least for a while, until I am sure Win 10 works without problems... So, will I'll be able to have OOYH installed on Win 10 as well, besides keeping it on Win 8?
  


> ...that same bug is still in the new low latency version...


 
  
 When watching movies with current version I enter -450ms delay, is that the right figure for current version?
 And what will be the right figure for new OOYH version?


----------



## darinf

mryman said:


> When Win 10 comes I play to keep Win 8 on C: partition and install Win 10 on D: partition.... at least for a while, until I am sure Win 10 works without problems... So, will I'll be able to have OOYH installed on Win 10 as well, besides keeping it on Win 8?


 
 Yes, you can have Out Of Your Head installed on both versions of Windows. YOu will however need a separate license file for each version of Windows. When you're ready, contact us with your Windows 10 UUID and we can issue you an updated license file.


> When watching movies with current version I enter -450ms delay, is that the right figure for current version?
> And what will be the right figure for new OOYH version?


 
 Yes, on Windows, the typical latency is 450ms.
  
 For the new low latency version, you must have a relatively fast computer. (Intel Core i3, i5, or i7) For fast computers, Out Of Your Head low latency adds about 30ms to 60ms to any existing latency. (Most systems with a USB DAC have inherent latency without Out Of Your Head. This latency can vary between machines and devices. On my Windows i5 laptop, the latency with a Geek Out DAC is about 60ms without Out Of Your Head running.)


----------



## DivineCurrent

I've had the trial of OOYH since May, but I haven't had much time to test it for an extended time until now. What I've noticed about this, as well as anything related to binaural recording or simulation, is that IEMs give me a much more convincing experience of "being there". With OOYH, suprisingly my $10 Samsung earbuds give a very convincing experience, even if the frequency and everything else about the earbuds sound bad. I have to say, they sound more like I'm listening to speakers than using my HD650s. I think this may have to do with the way the measurements were recorded, since I think Darin said at one point the microphones were placed near or just outside the ear canal entrance. Like I said before, this is not just with OOYH, it's also with binaural recordings I've heard, as well as binaural test recordings I've made with my own ears. Can anyone else confirm using IEMs for OOYH gives a slightly if not more than slightly convincing speaker experience?


----------



## darinf

achelgeson said:


> I've had the trial of OOYH since May, but I haven't had much time to test it for an extended time until now. What I've noticed about this, as well as anything related to binaural recording or simulation, is that IEMs give me a much more convincing experience of "being there". With OOYH, suprisingly my $10 Samsung earbuds give a very convincing experience, even if the frequency and everything else about the earbuds sound bad. I have to say, they sound more like I'm listening to speakers than using my HD650s. I think this may have to do with the way the measurements were recorded, since I think Darin said at one point the microphones were placed near or just outside the ear canal entrance. Like I said before, this is not just with OOYH, it's also with binaural recordings I've heard, as well as binaural test recordings I've made with my own ears. Can anyone else confirm using IEMs for OOYH gives a slightly if not more than slightly convincing speaker experience?


 
 Hi @achelgeson ,
  
 Like most things, everyone has vastly different preferences and experiences, especially with regard to Out Of Your Head. There are SO many variable at work.
  
 A lot of people have actually told me the opposite. They find the more open headphones give them a better experience with Out Of Your Head. We are talking about electrostatic headphones or HD800's, etc. I think part of that reason is that there is a sense that the sound you are hearing could be coming from speakers in the room rather than the headphones. With open headphones, you can hear all the sound in the room and your brain can believe that you are really hearing speakers not headphones. Some say that headphones with better imaging work better with Out Of Your Head. 
  
 I personally think that the Out Of Your Head "effect" is so much different than even the best imaging headphones, that the Out Of Your Head effect works well with closed headphones and IEM/CIEM's too. It's not a requirement to have headphones that image well on their own.
  
 Another reason why IEM's or CIEM's can sound better is that they are much lighter and less obtrusive. Since it feels like you're not wearing any headphones, maybe it's easier for your brain to believe you're not wearing headphones since you can't feel them and what you are hearing doesn't sound like you're wearing headphones either. (This is pure speculation. The brain is very interesting when it comes to binaural audio.)
  
 I don't think the capture method makes a difference with regard to IEM's working better than other headphones.


----------



## Dorohedoro

I'm thinking of buying this software in the future, but I have one question: are there any plans to add support of the head track technology? I think that adding this feature will help to recreate better the "out of the head" effect, I already have a head tracker for gaming.
  
 Thanks!
  
 (I want a realizer, but I think I will never afford to buy one, its very expensive...)


----------



## hekeli

Most Realiser users don't bother with the head tracker, it's a bit cumbersome and effect is fine without it anyway.


----------



## Dorohedoro

hekeli said:


> Most Realiser users don't bother with the head tracker, it's a bit cumbersome and effect is fine without it anyway.




Any Source for that statement about realizer users?

The simulation of the speaker position with the head tracker is one of the most interesting features of the realizer for me...

Btw, I cant properly get to work the out of the head software with the ac3filter, the audio is all clipped and the volume too low, any advice?

Thanks!


----------



## olegausany

dorohedoro said:


> hekeli said:
> 
> 
> > Most Realiser users don't bother with the head tracker, it's a bit cumbersome and effect is fine without it anyway.
> ...



Which player are you using? It's volume setting should be set to maximum


----------



## hekeli

dorohedoro said:


> Any Source for that statement about realizer users?


 
  
 Have you actually read the Realiser user threads here? If you sit behind a desk or glued to a sofa and don't care about the thingamajik on your head, then fine. I don't really care for the extra effect, sometimes it's even more distracting, not to mention if you accidently move your head out of the zone. If you want to help your brain, making dummy cardboard speakers for the correct distance probably works better for less hassle.
  
 Not to mention the problem of actually creating similar quality hardware, selling it and implementing PC software. How to connect it with a super low latency? OOYH already has a huge latency. Realiser has a tiny 16ms head tracking latency from movement to headphone output - try to duplicate that with a USB dongle lol..


----------



## darinf

dorohedoro said:


> Any Source for that statement about realizer users?
> 
> The simulation of the speaker position with the head tracker is one of the most interesting features of the realizer for me...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Dorohedoro,
  
 As @olegausany asked, What media player software are you using with ac3filter? I can try to duplicate your software configuration to test it.
  
 Regarding the head tracker, while head tracking can be useful for demos or to help your brain get used to localizing the virtual speaker locations, I have found that once you get used to the sound of the virtual speakers, head tracking makes very little difference. I agree with @hekeli that from the posts on Head-Fi, many Realiser owners do not use the head tracker ultimately.
  
 We may look into supporting head tracking in the future, but currently there are no plans for incorporating head tracking.


----------



## Great-God

Is this affected by the soundstage of the headphones used?
 I might be interested in this for my on the go setup, but with the soundstage of the M50x (I love them anyway) it'd seem that they wouldn't pick up the nuances the DSP brings. Am I wrong?
 (I don't have the time to throughly test it right now)


----------



## olegausany

Try it, use different presets


----------



## darinf

great-god said:


> Is this affected by the soundstage of the headphones used?
> I might be interested in this for my on the go setup, but with the soundstage of the M50x (I love them anyway) it'd seem that they wouldn't pick up the nuances the DSP brings. Am I wrong?
> (I don't have the time to throughly test it right now)


 
 The headphones, DAC, and amp will affect the sound, but it's no different than the way your rig affects the sound in general, without Out Of Your Head.
  
 I have found that just about any headphones will give you the "out of head" imaging, even Apple earpods. Of course, higher end systems will be able to reproduce more of the subtleties of the different speaker presets, but in general, any headphones will work.
  
 So I usually tell people if you like the sound of your listening system, then you should like the sound of your system with Out Of Your Head. 
  
 The best thing is to try it and see for yourself. If you don't have time to install the trial of Out Of Your Head and test it, you can always just listen to our pre-rendered demo files on our website. No need to install anything. Just use any web browser and listen with your headphone rig. (Go to our website and click on the "online demo" icon on the top.)


----------



## edwardsean

dorohedoro said:


> I'm thinking of buying this software in the future, but I have one question: are there any plans to add support of the head track technology? I think that adding this feature will help to recreate better the "out of the head" effect, I already have a head tracker for gaming.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> (I want a realizer, but I think I will never afford to buy one, its very expensive...)


 

 I think for music, and even movies, it's so much better to have the soundstage rendered agnostic to your head position. One of the advantages of headphone listening, I feel, is that you don't lose the stereo image when you turn your ahead and you don't have to sit still in the sweet spot. You're engulfed in great sound and can move about, or work, freely while you listen. I could see the appeal of head tracking for gaming though, or some of things that VR is trying do by allowing you to move in a virtual acoustic space. But, that's different than head tracking relative to a virtual speaker like the Realiser implements. The future looks (sounds) pretty good though with technology like Dolby's Atmos, 3-D rendered audio files, etc.  These kind of advancements would make head tracking really interesting. For now, OOYH as it is, is the present state of the art.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I can tell you I thought it was important when I was considering buying OOYH in the first place, but now believe a very convincing illusion can be obtainec without it.  
  
 I also own the HeaDSPeaker unit, and it has a headtracker.  That is a nice unit that renders the illusion of a modesty priced home theatre, bit nothing nearly as spectacular as can be oftained with OOYH--provided you can find the right preset that works for you and your individual HRTF.
  
 I used to think the most imporant things on OOYH were 1) Headtracking 2) A custom ASIO driver and 3) Low latency and 4) a great HRTF match.  I never thought 24/96 processing that important, and still do not.  32/48 is just fine.
  
 To me the latency and the HRTF matches are the most important things.


----------



## Great-God

Well, when installing the trial it shows a kernel security chek failure and reboots the computer.


----------



## darinf

great-god said:


> Well, when installing the trial it shows a kernel security chek failure and reboots the computer.


 
 Hi @Great-God,
  
 What operating system and version are you running? FYI, Out Of Your Head requires Windows 7 or 8 64bit, or Mac OS X 10.8 or higher.
  
 Are you saying that the Out Of Your Head installer is crashing? I have not seen that before. At what stage does the installer crash? Right after launch? Does the Out Of Your Head Installer window open? Does the crash occur after the Out Of Your Head installer is finished but when the driver installer launches?
  
 I would suggest downloading the trial version again just to make sure the file was not corrupted somehow. 
 Also, before launching the installer, try disabling any security/anti-virus software. Since we install a driver and our software is not well known to the anti-virus software, sometimes Out Of Your Head can get blocked by security software.
  
 Lastly, please contact us directly via our website contact form if you want us to help troubleshoot your system.


----------



## Great-God

It's Windows 8.1 64bit, and it happens right after the message "a popup message will appear when the driver is installed". The very moment I close it it's a BSOD.
But yeah, tomorrow I'll give it a try again, maybe after a bit of hard drive cleaning.


----------



## darinf

great-god said:


> It's Windows 8.1 64bit, and it happens right after the message "a popup message will appear when the driver is installed". The very moment I close it it's a BSOD.
> But yeah, tomorrow I'll give it a try again, maybe after a bit of hard drive cleaning.


 
 Sorry about not replying sooner.
  
 Did you ever get it to install the driver?
  
 I have not seen a BSOD during the driver installation. But can you double check that the Out Of Your Head VIrtual Audio device is not listed in your Windows Device Manager under the "sound, video, and game controllers" section? If there is, try to uninstall it and select "Delete the diver software" option too. Then reboot and try the installation again.
  
 Another alternative is to manually install the Out Of Your Head driver through device manager. But I suspect that may also cause the BSOD.
  
 Lastly, contact us directly and we can try a beta version instead.
  
 -Darin


----------



## DivineCurrent

Hey Darin, assuming you read this, do you plan on adding any more presets of different systems, and if so which ones were you thinking? If I could give my 2 cents, I'm sure many people including myself would love to hear a KEF system, or maybe Bowers and Wilkins.


----------



## darinf

achelgeson said:


> Hey Darin, assuming you read this, do you plan on adding any more presets of different systems, and if so which ones were you thinking? If I could give my 2 cents, I'm sure many people including myself would love to hear a KEF system, or maybe Bowers and Wilkins.


 
 Hi @achelgeson ,
  
 We are always looking for more systems to measure and add to the library of presets. However, we are at the mercy of finding owners willing to let us come in and measure their speaker systems. We get what we can, but it can take a long time to find willing owners. We also don;t have the resources to fly places just to do measurements. So, you can imagine how difficult it would be to target a specific speaker brand and model and then find someone who not only has those speakers, but is local and willing to let us do a measurement.
  
 I do have a couple measurements that I need to get ready for release. I have a measurement of some Magico Q7 speakers and a pair of Estelon XB speakers. Those should be released in the next month or so.
  
 But I always like to tell as many people as possible that if you know anyone who has a nice speaker system that is willing to let us come in and do measurements, let us know! (Southern California preferred... but you never know)


----------



## DivineCurrent

darinf said:


> Hi @achelgeson
> ,
> 
> We are always looking for more systems to measure and add to the library of presets. However, we are at the mercy of finding owners willing to let us come in and measure their speaker systems. We get what we can, but it can take a long time to find willing owners. We also don;t have the resources to fly places just to do measurements. So, you can imagine how difficult it would be to target a specific speaker brand and model and then find someone who not only has those speakers, but is local and willing to let us do a measurement.
> ...



Thanks for the reply Darin! Yes, i can very well imagine the difficulty of not only finding specific speaker systems, but also at the same time them being willing to let you do measurements. Sounds good that there are new presets coming, i look forward to it!


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin, I understand we will need the new low latency version of OOYH when we migrate to Windows 10.  Obviously Windows 10 has been released and I'm sure a lot of us want to bid Windows 8  a fond farewell, and migrate to Windows 10 so we're interested to know if we're pretty close to seeing the release of low latency Windows 10 compatible OOYH.  Any idea how much longer till you can do that release?


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> Darin, I understand we will need the new low latency version of OOYH when we migrate to Windows 10.  Obviously Windows 10 has been released and I'm sure a lot of us want to bid Windows 8  a fond farewell, and migrate to Windows 10 so we're interested to know if we're pretty close to seeing the release of low latency Windows 10 compatible OOYH.  Any idea how much longer till you can do that release?


 
 Sorry about the late response...
  
 I am not sure when we will release the low latency, Windows 10 compatible version of Out Of Your Head. Right now, it's in beta or really a "soft" release. Anyone who wants to try the latest beta version is welcome to contact us. I am pretty sure the latest version will become the release version soon, I hope!
  
 The biggest issue with the low latency engine is that the CPU requirements have gone up. Older, slower computers that work fine with the current release version of Out Of Your Head may not work with the new version. Generally an i3 or higher CPU or AMD equivalent is required. But if you upgrade to the low latency version and it doesn't work with your CPU, you can downgrade back to the current release version. (As long as you have not upgraded to Windows 10)
  
 There is a problem with people with slower computers that upgrade to Windows 10. At that point, the current release will not work on Windows 10. But the low latency version will not work with Windows 10. So, just a warning for anyone with an older computer who upgrades to Windows 10. You may not be able to run Out Of Your Head anymore. We tried to "upgrade" the current release processing engine to work on Windows 10, but have not been able to do it. So, if you have a slower computer, please contact us to try the beta Windows 10 compatible version BEFORE you upgrade to Windows 10.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Darin, considering I just upgraded to an HP Envy 15T with an i7 4710hq processor and have already installed Windows 10 on it,I would be very interest in trying the beta version of the latency build. I will contact presently.


----------



## MrYman

darinf said:


> Yes, you can have Out Of Your Head installed on both versions of Windows. YOu will however need a separate license file for each version of Windows. When you're ready, contact us with your Windows 10 UUID and we can issue you an updated license file.
> Yes, on Windows, the typical latency is 450ms.
> 
> 
> For the new low latency version, you must have a relatively fast computer. (Intel Core i3, i5, or i7) For fast computers, Out Of Your Head low latency adds about 30ms to 60ms to any existing latency. (Most systems with a USB DAC have inherent latency without Out Of Your Head. This latency can vary between machines and devices. On my Windows i5 laptop, the latency with a Geek Out DAC is about 60ms without Out Of Your Head running.)


 

 Thank you re license for upcoming Win 10!  And re latency, I got a nice new fast desktop PC (i7-4790K @ 4GHz), so I guess I'll be fine with your new version to use even for games, beside movies and music.


----------



## alexdi

This is very impressive software. I've had a few hours of listening time with the various presets. Long enough to agree that, yeah, it sounds just like a set of speakers. 
  
 But not particularly good speakers. They're all very different and none approach neutral. The binaural positioning is far superior for movies, but if I could keep that mathematical model and subtract all the various speakers that created it, this product  would be much more compelling. Headphones have so much higher fidelity than any full-size speaker arrangement, I wonder the virtue of attempting to emulate something worse. 
  
 Anyway, so far, I've found the free HRTF function in PotPlayer to present the most realistic sound, as opposed to the most realistic rendition of speakers playing the sound. If OOYH could do better, I'd consider it a bargain.


----------



## edwardsean

alexdi said:


> This is very impressive software. I've had a few hours of listening time with the various presets. Long enough to agree that, yeah, it sounds just like a set of speakers.
> 
> But not particularly good speakers. They're all very different and none approach neutral. The binaural positioning is far superior for movies, but if I could keep that mathematical model and subtract all the various speakers that created it, this product  would be much more compelling. Headphones have so much higher fidelity than any full-size speaker arrangement, I wonder the virtue of attempting to emulate something worse.
> 
> Anyway, so far, I've found the free HRTF function in PotPlayer to present the most realistic sound, as opposed to the most realistic rendition of speakers playing the sound. If OOYH could do better, I'd consider it a bargain.


 
 So... over the summer I fell in love... with the Sony NW-ZX2. The ZX2 + AMD surround software + Uber Cable + Tralucent Ref.1 = love. So much so that I thought "maybe I don't need my other gear." After travels, I plugged the ZX2 into the Hugo with upgraded digital cabling and thought, "Whoa I forgot how great the Hugo is." Then I swapped out the DAP fired up Pure Music + OOYH + Synergistic Research USB + Audiophileo convertor + Hugo + Uber Cable + Tralucent Ref.1 (DHC cable + HD800) and thought, "Nope." OOYH is a world away from ZX2 + AMD surround--which I still love, but c'mon--speakers. 
  
 Now I don't know how close OOYH gets to "good speakers." I don't own a pair of Magicos, which is sad for me. But two things come to mind. First, I'm trusting that you're making your assessment based on a high quality headphone setup, because it just wouldn't be a fair analysis of the software to try and emulate "good speakers" out of bad headphones. I do think OOYH can turn an HD800 into good speakers, but it can't turn iPod earbuds into HD800s. This is psychoacoustics not psycho acoustics. 
  
 Secondly, to my mind anyway, "the virtue of attempting to emulate something worse," i.e., speakers, is precisely because "headphones have so much higher fidelity." It is leveraging that very sonic fidelity/ cost + ergonomics ratio to compress high quality speaker sound into a much smaller, private form factor at a fraction of the cost, i.e., into headphones. In other words, I love my HD800s but if I didn't have family, I would want a pair of Magicos.
  
 The breakthrough implementation of this approach is via convolution (a la Smyth and OOYH), and so you can't subtract the mathematical model from the various speakers that have been sampled, because the mathematical models are those speakers. What makes it so convincing is that OOYH is not an algorithm of a surround effect generated by speaker arrays, but the actual impulse/response of real speakers in real rooms. How accurately it stacks up against those actual systems seems like it would be so dependent upon the headphone chain and the individual's ORTF.
  
 But, I don't know, it sure sounds like "good speakers" to me.


----------



## alexdi

Besides the one I mentioned, I haven't found any freely-available HRTF models worth listening to. Surprising, this, given how compelling a good one can be. I'm listening on sets of 400i and HD600.  
  
 If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former.


----------



## darinf

alexdi said:


> Besides the one I mentioned, I haven't found any freely-available HRTF models worth listening to. Surprising, this, given how compelling a good one can be. I'm listening on sets of 400i and HD600.
> 
> If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former.


 
 Hi @alexdi ,
  
 Thanks for posting. and Thanks for your response too @edwardsean ,
  
 I think you have a valid point. I am also impressed that you can hear so much detail in the reproduction of the sound of the speakers in Out Of Your Head. Yes, the speakers and rooms definitely have flaws. So far I have not yet found the "perfect" speaker system if there is such a thing. The point of Out Of Your Head is to reproduce the sound of speakers and rooms. I am glad it sounds real to you.
  
 But "reality" is a double edged sword. As I have stated before, the speakers and rooms I measure are difficult to find, so I get what I get. Some speakers are better, some rooms are better, and some mega buck rooms do not sound as good as one would hope after spending that kind of money. I can't really go into someone's listening room and tune their room, apply acoustic treatments, etc. I am lucky enough to be able to do our measurements at all.
  
 Plus there isn't such thing as a perfect room anyway. Every speaker and room has compromises. But that's reality. That's the speaker listening experience. 
  
 Some of the recording studio presets like AIX or MiCasa or Genelec are calibrated, highly acoustically treated rooms. They tend to have the least room interactions and therefore can be closer to that ideal "perfect" room. But personally I like the music listening rooms better for listening to music. For movies, the recording studios can be quite good.
  
 I have had others ask me if there's a way to male a "perfect" simulation with perfect speakers and no room interaction at all. The short answer is no, I can't. Again I will use the analogy of CGI vs. shooting film/video. With CGI, you can make everything as perfect as you want, but it's not reality. It may come close to looking 100% real, but filming an actual real scene is going to be more real. It will not be perfect, but it will look real because it's a recording of a real scene, not a computer generated version. It's like making a movie with CGI actors vs. live action actors. You can make the CGI actors look however you want, but with real actors, you can't change their face for example to look like someone else or to be more "perfect". Anyway, you get the idea.
  
 So with that said, Out Of Your Head is not for everyone. Many people like headphones better than speakers. Some people don't want the sound of real speakers. That's fine. But if you want to experience sitting in a real room with real speakers, then give Out Of Your Head a try. 
  


> As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former.


 
 I am not sure what "real" means as opposed to "real speakers". Would I rather have the sound of live music vs. listening to speakers, sure! But I am not sure how that's possible, especially with headphones, maybe binaural recordings? But to me listening to "real speakers" sounds closer to a live performance with the sound out in front of me rather than headphone listening with all the sound inside my head.
  
 Thanks for listening,
 -Darin


----------



## alexdi

Darin,

Thank you for that comprehensive response.

There's an engineering site online that's made available for free use about 50 HRTF models derived from a variety of heads. A number of companies use a handful of them to make high-priced VST plugins for surround emulation in music production.

What does not exist is a simple program like OOYH to apply these models to a generic audio feed and let the user choose between them until they find one that best approximates their head.

I don't know the technical challenge of implementing this, but I, and I believe quite a lot of other people, would certainly pay for it. No speakers required.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

You make an excellent point.  I am an old hi end speaker guy, and to me OOYH sounds just like an excellent hi-end system--at least on some of the presets.  Does that mean those presets have the same colorations caused by the limitations of their drivers, crossovers, cabinets and room set-ups?  Sure, but even so it certainly beats ​(for me) the flat, plastered to your eardrum sound of even the best headphones.
  
 There are also many hi end systems now using DSP to overcome things like crossover induced phase shifts and standing waves in the room speaker interaction.  Darin even has a few systems (the ribbons) that utilize this technology.
  
 But I think you have hit upon something regarding being able to use a customized or semi customized HRTF with the room speaker presets. If it would be possible at some point to record the presets with a dummy head whose HRTF was well understood mathematically, and then create the capability in the program of subtracting out the dummy head's HRTF and substituting one of a number of HRTFs which the end user picks from a library, then, especially with a quality headphone properly equalized, it will be possible to create a universally usable high end system for comparatively little money.
  
 I know this is a daunting technical challenge for the companies creating these OOYH type programs, but I am certain it is doable, and in all probability will be done in the next five years.


----------



## musicreo

alexdi said:


> Darin,
> 
> Thank you for that comprehensive response.
> 
> ...


 
 I know that site. I have tested  most of the HRTfs which were recorded in a anechoic room with  a free convolution  DSP (it took me some time to set up everything)  and for me all sound bad.  The sound coloration is extreme and you loose  low frequencies. Also the left right balance is sometimes wrong. I think Darin have made better measurements for his BRIRs.
 So far  the best free binaural room impulses I have found are these: http://spatialaudio.net/183/


----------



## ns6490

alexdi said:


> If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former.


 
  
 TB Isone eliminates the problems you describe. It can much more closely match your HRTF than the stock presets of OOYH, and it can reduce or eliminate reverb as much as you wish. It does take some time and patience to customize it for your particular HRTF, but it's a thing of beauty when you arrive at the right settings.


----------



## alexdi

FYI for anyone into this-- the combination I found to replace PotPlayer is J.River player with Sonarworks and Wave Arts Panorama VST plugins. The latter has a dozen HRTF profiles. Find the right one and the result is pretty incredible. The best demos from OOYH can do better, but if your HRTF doesn't match the OOYH presets, those two are a great alternative. I really wanted TB Isone to work, but honestly, it's amateur-hour next to Panorama.


----------



## edwardsean

Isone is a nice bit of code. If you listen to headphones because you can't stand the resonance anomalies of speakers then it might be just the thing for you. Isone, when properly set, is your headphone sound re-presented in surround like dimensionality. It does that without room interference, but by the same token, it falls short of the kind of grand scale and sense of space, air, and immersion that speakers provide. I know I'm a broken record (or FLAC file?) on this, but OOYH is the only thing that recreates that (at least on the software side of a Symth Realiser).
  
 Every form of reproduction has tradeoffs and, to be sure, with OOYH you are bringing in both the positives and negatives of speakers and rooms. However, if I can give some small benefit of experience from being a somewhat early adopter, I would caution against attributing personal system deficiencies to OOYH. Two quick cases If I may:
  
 1) OOYH is definitely "thinner" and bright sounding than straight sound or e.g., Isone. But, you have treat OOYH like any other component of system synergy. Paired with a weak and thin amp you get a hollow and wispy sound. Paired with a tube-like amp with some analog weight and, at least to my ears, just wow....
  
 2) OOYH's real room/speaker emulations are going to come with their real acoustic issues. However, I've spent untold hours tweaking with a raft of professional grade EQs only to find that the problem I was hearing was not OOYH but in my own system. Case in point, Alexdi mentioned the wonderful Sonarworks which corrects headphone EQ curves. I applied it to my HD800 and freq. spectrum issues, I thought were OOYH or differences in HRTF, cleared up.
  
 The takeaway is to think of OOYH not as a toy or mere effect, but a main part of the signal chain. Because it reshapes the sound so dramatically it has to be given that stake in shaping the overall system to function at its best. When it does, again, just wow....


----------



## edwardsean

Just some more thoughts on OOYH vs. Isone (and other algorithmic software), in case there is interest.
  
 Isone is one of best executions of the algorithmic approach to spatial virtualization. Some will prefer this to OOYH because it’s only attempting virtualization of your personal system. You still recognize your headphone and amp as you tweak HRTF, reflection, localization cues. It's a pretty dramatic effect, but positively or negatively, there is not as large a psychoacoustic delta relative to OOYH. What I mean is this.
  
 With OOYH, you’re "giving up" your system to a greater degree. Unlike Isone, OOYH isn't just trying to get your system out of your head and into your room (despite the name). It's attempting to get a whole another system+room into your room. Your system becomes a conduit to “channel” in e.g., the spirit of Acoustic Zen speakers, in a reference room, through the medium of your headphone and amp, into your room. (The movie "Inception"?) The result becomes a hybrid sound that works best when you match 1) Darin's convolution captures to 2) your HRTF and 3) your personal system. I’m assuming most people aren’t going to purchase custom OOYH profiles and there’s not a whole lot you can do to alter your HRTF. Cosmetic surgery is probably the least preferable way to increase audio quality. (Also, we'd all end up looking like Darin. I'm sure he's a good looking guy but I would think this is not the way.)
  
 So, that leaves the system. Personally, I test every purchase of new gear with OOYH engaged and then defeat it to see how it sounds pure. For obvious reasons, I used to do the reverse, but a while ago OOYH became as much a part of the core I wanted to build around as my HD800s. I don't mean to dissuade use of OOYH without such a commitment, as I quite enjoyed it from the start, but I'm talking about scalability. With every upgrade of my system, I never feel as if I'm leaving OOYH behind, but like I'm catching up to it. Recently, I assembled another endgame system ("another endgame" is linguistically an oxymoron, but I'm sure headfiers can both appreciate it and commiserate with the phrase). In this system, I would put up OOYH against any Smyth Realiser setup, and find that it's actually making real gains against actual 6-7 figure listening rooms. 
  
 I apologize for the long posts, but hope that it might help someone.


----------



## ns6490

alexdi said:


> FYI for anyone into this-- the combination I found to replace PotPlayer is J.River player with Sonarworks and Wave Arts Panorama VST plugins. The latter has a dozen HRTF profiles. Find the right one and the result is pretty incredible. The best demos from OOYH can do better, but if your HRTF doesn't match the OOYH presets, those two are a great alternative. I really wanted TB Isone to work, but honestly, it's amateur-hour next to Panorama.


 
  
 Interested to hear your thoughts on the respective virtues of Panorama and Sonarworks versus those of Isone. I haven't checked them out, so I don't know in which ways Isone may be amateurish in comparison. However, I do know that Isone's creator has impeccable academic and professional credentials in the field in question.


----------



## alexdi

ns6490 said:


> Interested to hear your thoughts on the respective virtues of Panorama and Sonarworks versus those of Isone. I haven't checked them out, so I don't know in which ways Isone may be amateurish in comparison. However, I do know that Isone's creator has impeccable academic and professional credentials in the field in question.


 
  
 I can't speak to Isone, but the other two have free trials with no functionality limitations, so by all means have a go yourself. I made a post with more details here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782170/fun-with-vsts


----------



## Sarurururu

Hello Darin,

I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William


----------



## olegausany

sarurururu said:


> Hello Darin,
> 
> I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William



Old version isn't compatible with Windows 10. You should email Darin instead of posting here


----------



## darinf

sarurururu said:


> Hello Darin,
> 
> I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William




Please email us directly: info at fongaudio.com or use the contact form on our website. 

We'll get you setup. 

-Darin


----------



## Sarurururu

darinf said:


> Please email us directly: info at fongaudio.com or use the contact form on our website.
> 
> We'll get you setup.
> 
> -Darin


 
 Again, thanks for your prompt  reply, Darin. Just left you a message on your web page


----------



## Sarurururu

After a couple weeks of listening, I personally think the audio quality as well as software performance of OOYH works much better under Window 10 compared to Window 7. Less jitter presented, soundstage is wider and deeper. I am a happy man


----------



## louiebh

Ive been testing this program and it is fantastic recommend playing a song you like in all the presets and see what fits for you the low latency mode is fantastic and has made this amazing for viewing on my semi htpc setup with this completing it! hopefully there are sales still but i recommend!

 my only issue is using this with WASAPI as i dont know how to set it up but wasapi is slightly inconvenient so its not that bad but very nice to have what should i do? in foobar etc i get playback error unsupported sampling rate i think.
  
 There should be package deals and sales for this soon i hop because this software is honestly godlike!


----------



## darinf

louiebh said:


> Ive been testing this program and it is fantastic recommend playing a song you like in all the presets and see what fits for you the low latency mode is fantastic and has made this amazing for viewing on my semi htpc setup with this completing it! hopefully there are sales still but i recommend!
> 
> my only issue is using this with WASAPI as i dont know how to set it up but wasapi is slightly inconvenient so its not that bad but very nice to have what should i do? in foobar etc i get playback error unsupported sampling rate i think.
> 
> There should be package deals and sales for this soon i hop because this software is honestly godlike!


 
 Hi @louiebh ,
 Thanks for posting. Glad you are enjoying Out Of Your Head.
  
 To use WASAPI with Out Of Your Head, all audio must be converted to 48KHz/24bit (or 32 bit). Since WASAPI does not do any sample rate conversion and Out Of Your Head does all processing at 48KHz/32bit, you must have your media player app do the sample rate conversion before sending to Out Of Your Head WASAPI.
  
 I believe with FooBar, you can set it up to do the sample rate conversion.
  
 -Darin


----------



## louiebh

darinf said:


> Hi @louiebh ,
> Thanks for posting. Glad you are enjoying Out Of Your Head.
> 
> To use WASAPI with Out Of Your Head, all audio must be converted to 48KHz/24bit (or 32 bit). Since WASAPI does not do any sample rate conversion and Out Of Your Head does all processing at 48KHz/32bit, you must have your media player app do the sample rate conversion before sending to Out Of Your Head WASAPI.
> ...


 
 ahh i had it set up to play files at 48hz but not all my files were 48hz some being 44.1hz my issue is since this device only plats 48 what can i do to play my 44.1 files as my usual dac would handle multiple up to 96 including 48hz etc.


 Im having issues with sound clipping i believe reasoning is sound is too loud rather than my pc being uncapable of running it and highs and bass are the cause. I figured i get normal audio by reducing the input levels or the output levels, usually in other apps this messes with the quality does this happen in OOYH? also which should i use to modify changing each input channel or modifying only my L/R output channels for best quality?


----------



## olegausany

louiebh said:


> darinf said:
> 
> 
> > Hi @louiebh ,
> ...



Go to Foobar playback preferences and lower the preamp gain level 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## louiebh

olegausany said:


> Go to Foobar playback preferences and lower the preamp gain level
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


 

 that should be fine for foobar i get this in normal windows usage too with random sounds being very loud whats another alternative?


----------



## darinf

louiebh said:


> that should be fine for foobar i get this in normal windows usage too with random sounds being very loud whats another alternative?


 
 You can adjust the input levels lower in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. Those levels are saved for each preset, so you would have to adjust the levels for each preset separately.
 Alternately you can adjust the output level of the app your are using to play your music or movies.
  
 Yes, in theory, by adjusting the volume in the app, you are not getting "bit perfect" audio, but Out Of Your Head is doing so much processing to the audio data that the audio will never be bit perfect on the output by definition. I don't think you will notice the difference in the sound when adjusting the volume in an app.


----------



## alpha421

sarurururu said:


> After a couple weeks of listening, I personally think the audio quality as well as software performance of OOYH works much better under Window 10 compared to Window 7. Less jitter presented, soundstage is wider and deeper. I am a happy man


 

  Really?  This may the only reason for me to upgrade to Win10 from Win7pro. So far, OOYH/Sasha-->Meridian Explorer--> Yuin PK2/PK1 = bliss.


----------



## olegausany

alpha421 said:


> sarurururu said:
> 
> 
> > After a couple weeks of listening, I personally think the audio quality as well as software performance of OOYH works much better under Window 10 compared to Window 7. Less jitter presented, soundstage is wider and deeper. I am a happy man
> ...



It's because you're going to use low latency version under Windows 10


----------



## alpha421

Thanks. I see from the past posts, it looks like this feature is only available in Win10.


----------



## olegausany

alpha421 said:


> Thanks. I see from the past posts, it looks like this feature is only available in Win10.



Exactly


----------



## darinf

sarurururu said:


> After a couple weeks of listening, I personally think the audio quality as well as software performance of OOYH works much better under Window 10 compared to Window 7. Less jitter presented, soundstage is wider and deeper. I am a happy man


 
 To be honest, I have not compared the sound quality between Windows 7 and Windows 10, but that's interesting to hear.
  


alpha421 said:


> Thanks. I see from the past posts, it looks like this feature is only available in Win10.


 
 The low latency beta version works with Win 7 through Win 10. So you don't have to upgrade to Win 10 to try it and get the low latency feature. However, if the sound quality is better in Win 10 than Win 7 according to @Sarurururu, then you would need to upgrade to Win 10 to see if that's true.
  
 You do have to have a fast computer regardless of OS version to use the low latency version of Out Of Your Head. Some older computers may not be able to run the low latency engine without skips and stuttering, etc.


----------



## Sarurururu

darinf said:


> To be honest, I have not compared the sound quality between Windows 7 and Windows 10, but that's interesting to hear.
> 
> The low latency beta version works with Win 7 through Win 10. So you don't have to upgrade to Win 10 to try it and get the low latency feature. However, if the sound quality is better in Win 10 than Win 7 according to @Sarurururu
> , then you would need to upgrade to Win 10 to see if that's true.
> ...




Regardless the improved performance of the updated OOYH, the native player of Win 10 sounds a lot better to my ears when compared to Win 7. People generally have positive comment about Win 10.

In terms of hardware, mine is a 6 year old laptop with i5 and 8Gb ram onboard, nothing fancy worth mentioning. However, whenever OOYH initiates, it tends to have a split second of stuttering at the very begining, other than that, everything seems fine as long as I don't have too many programs running at the same time. But again, I think that's understandable and reasonable.


----------



## alpha421

Hmm.  I use JRiver MC, so no desire for Win10.


----------



## louiebh

Ive really enjoyed this program thoroughly the sound quality and effects have been really well done and low latency mode is fantastic there are a few bugs but they dont look difficult to solve and looking forward to its completed version!!

 I had a few issues i think the program should minimize to system tray instead of persisting on the taskbar im sure alot of us are minimalists and this will be welcomed once OOYH is ready to be listened to hiding it away is going to be what people do so they can enjoy audio, although i can see how trial users would want it open always so they can change sound setup so i propose you give an option for minimise to tray like most standard applications.

 Will there be any sales for OOYH anytime soon as a student getting into the audiophile community i am kinda priced out  but all in all great job by darin I wasnt sold at first but this app is the truth and amazing with movies, with games the low latency mode is god It brings so much depth to games from mobas to rpgs!


----------



## Takeanidea

My quick impressions of OOYH after hours and hours listening to all the speaker systems. My first wobble was buying the massdrop deal after just 3 minutes of listening to the demo files. I wasn't sure whether I could get used to the sound of speakers having been so used to listening through headphones. The idea seemed so brilliant I went for it anyway.
 It takes time but you can enjoy music through virtual speakers ; some music even benefits from not having sudden clever micro details not being pushed straight into your ear. Speakers being further away do not sound as intimate as headphones. The stereo and micro details can't be presented as intimately as through headphones like HE-6 and HD800. But what speakers bring is superb tone and a hugeness to the presentation. 
 What @darinf  has achieved here is fantastic. The ability to switch between 19 top end systems and your own headphones without moving from your armchair. Not all sound great to my ears, and some sound better than others for different music, such as vinyl rips , dance music , hard rock , classical , acoustic.
 I was only able to get OOYH working through Vox - unfortunately Audivarna + , which I paid £50 for , doesn't work. Yet. What it does is set itself up to play the track but no sound comes out.
 For movies I just love this software - even playing an episode of World at War , recorded in 1973 and showing real footage of WWII , the sound is huge through so many of the presets. Another movie played through surround on VLC worked really well too. I have no audio lag at all, I have not had to adjust anything so far although if I do it is simple in VLC.
 I have included some observations on OOYH in my latest review :
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/havit-hv-h91dj-professional-stereo-studio-dj-series-headphones-with-microphone-easter-day-special-brown/reviews/14670
 I tried the software with a set of DJ Headphones costing £17.99 on amazon.co.uk......
  
 Suffice it to say there are enough winners in the speaker presets to make it an expensive piece of software. Obviously this can be spread over the coming years at increments of $25 a time, and as the software becomes older maybe subsequent purchases will cost less. Could Massdrop be considered once in awhile for promoting new speaker set ups for a discounted price?


----------



## darinf

takeanidea said:


> My quick impressions of OOYH after hours and hours listening to all the speaker systems. My first wobble was buying the massdrop deal after just 3 minutes of listening to the demo files. I wasn't sure whether I could get used to the sound of speakers having been so used to listening through headphones. The idea seemed so brilliant I went for it anyway.
> It takes time but you can enjoy music through virtual speakers ; some music even benefits from not having sudden clever micro details not being pushed straight into your ear. Speakers being further away do not sound as intimate as headphones. The stereo and micro details can't be presented as intimately as through headphones like HE-6 and HD800. But what speakers bring is superb tone and a hugeness to the presentation.
> What @darinf  has achieved here is fantastic. The ability to switch between 19 top end systems and your own headphones without moving from your armchair. Not all sound great to my ears, and some sound better than others for different music, such as vinyl rips , dance music , hard rock , classical , acoustic.
> I was only able to get OOYH working through Vox - unfortunately Audivarna + , which I paid £50 for , doesn't work. Yet. What it does is set itself up to play the track but no sound comes out.
> ...


 
 Hi 
@Takeanidea
 Thank you for posting your impressions and mentioning Out Of Your Head in your headphone review.
  
 I just wanted to point out that Audirvana does work with Out Of Your Head, but sue to the specialized nature of Audirvana, it's not as "plug and play" as some other software.
  
 I know no one reads the manual, but on page 24 of the Out Of Your Head User Manual, there is is a section about getting Audirvana working with Out Of Your Head.
  
 Here's the steps:
  


> Basically we must set Audirvana to down sample everything to 48kHz sampling rate and disable some of the advanced settings.
> 1. Open Preferences under the Audirvana menu.
> 2. Click on Audio System button along top
> 3. If the “Preferred Audio Device” is not set to “OOYH (16ch)”, click the “Change” button and change it to OOYH (16ch).
> ...


 
 I have to admit, I have not tried the latest version of Audirvana with the latest version of Out Of Your Head, so it's possible there might be some additional tweaks in Audirvana. So let me know if these settings don't work.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Takeanidea

I've been so immersed in this I didn't even notice a user manual! Sorry Darin. RTFM as they say.....


----------



## louiebh

I just got my hd800's ive gone ahead and bought all the presets the only thing im missing is a good dac this app has been very promising and Ive been enjoying AzenMaestro the most is there anyway for maybe the thread to be updated when newer versions come out?


----------



## Takeanidea

The Azen Maestro is a great virtual speaker a good choice. I found the Focal Sasha was the nicest and most forgiving for treble. I had a recorder from a Christmas tune that only the Sasha could do proper justice to. It may be the king of the woodwinds. I have the HD800s too.Another great choice


----------



## louiebh

darinf said:


> Hi @Digitalchkn, Thanks for posting your question.
> 
> Due to CPU processing requirements for 8 channels of audio, we decided to do all the processing at 48kHz/32 bit sampling rate. We can do up to 192k, but the processing power required is significant especially with 8 channels.
> 
> ...


 

 Is there any word on the ASIO support, extra channels on the way and the higher than 48khz/32 bit sampling rate?


----------



## darinf

louiebh said:


> I just got my hd800's ive gone ahead and bought all the presets the only thing im missing is a good dac this app has been very promising and Ive been enjoying AzenMaestro the most is there anyway for maybe the thread to be updated when newer versions come out?


 
 Hi @louiebh ,
 Thank you for your purchase.
  
 I am not 100% sure, but I think being a vendor (Member of the Trade status), I am not allowed to post announcements on Head-Fi. But if you sign up for our mailing list or follow on Facebook or Twitter, you can get announcements that way.
  
 You should not have a problem finding a great DAC. There are so many impressive DACs available these days. 
  
 What are you using for an amp? The HD800's also scale well with better amps.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

louiebh said:


> Is there any word on the ASIO support, extra channels on the way and the higher than 48khz/32 bit sampling rate?


 
 While those things are possible, we are currently focusing on getting Out Of Your Head working on mobile devices. But it's tougher than expected so we don't have any projected release date.


----------



## louiebh

darinf said:


> Hi @louiebh ,
> Thank you for your purchase.
> 
> I am not 100% sure, but I think being a vendor (Member of the Trade status), I am not allowed to post announcements on Head-Fi. But if you sign up for our mailing list or follow on Facebook or Twitter, you can get announcements that way.
> ...


 
  
 ahh fair enough I was signed up to the newsletter but I didn't receive any notification that 1293 was released so i was assuming its being done via another method
  
 I was looking into a high end DAC i have a custom built ODA and ODAC but currently using my 24 bit dac onboard of my Razer Seiren mic has 192/24 vs my 96/24 odac
 Ive been planning on just having an endgame setup since I got involved in the community, started with dt990 premiums now my HD800s with custom whiplash cables
 Your software gives me access to the speaker world as a student who will likely not have a room to put some in till im older than you! all within the enclosure of my favourite headphones too!
 I use your low latency software for gaming alot and I have been loving it Its hard to test the presets for gaming on the 2min limit but now I wont have to worry and can now fully immerse myself 
  
 the only thing im missing now would be higher sampling rate from your program, a better dac, and finishing my new pc rig! Im planning on crazy VR/3D vision with your software to help bring it all together as my dream setup I can take anywhere I please


----------



## louiebh

darinf said:


> While those things are possible, we are currently focusing on getting Out Of Your Head working on mobile devices. But it's tougher than expected so we don't have any projected release date.


 
  
 Ive been able to get OOYH working with asio4all v2 for now which is okay but from skimming through the thread this shouldnt be possible or problematic? so far it seems fine to me and it has been clear as **** and really gave  me new perspective on what i could hear but i guess direct asio would be even better. since i have a solution for the meantime it should be okay untill you get around to it.
  
 extra channels can wait i guess i feel the option is better than actually having it but its good to know that i can play anything I set OOYH for and enjoy it to the fullest
  
 hmm for the higher processing most of us have or will be using x99 soon and have i5-i7 me personally with an i7 laptop from 2011 ive been using OOYH alongside Reclock audio renderer and its been great but downsampling to 48khz when so much better can be done 192 or even 384 would be awesome ive never seen OOYH use more than 5% cpu and i dont mind spending some more for better. Keep the 48hz options for people on the more lacking systems most are using 2 channels more often than not


----------



## dmbr

Wait, is the gaming version out of beta? I haven't gotten any newsletters saying so.


----------



## edwardsean

Hi Darin!
  
 I just downloaded the new 1.2beta. I haven't got a chance to test the latency, but it sounds as good as ever! The one thing I did notice though was that when I open Safari on my 2013 Macbook Pro (El Cap) OOYH stutters and pops for a second. I tried to reproduce it with other programs but so far it's just Safari, and oddly, when I open a dock folder with several application shortcuts. I don't know if this is because I only have 8Gb of RAM, but I don't think it did this previously. Otherwise it performs superbly. 
  
 I was just wondering if the decrease in latency does come at the cost of system performance, would it possible to add a slider that allows you to choose the tradeoff point between latency/performance. Soundworks implements one in their plugin and it works out quite nicely. 
  
 I don't know if this is even a real issue and if it also just might get resolved with the final rollout. However, since I don't do much gaming, I would rather take the hit on latency.
  
 I'm so glad everything is moving ahead. It is also great to hear that the mobile version is still in the works even if far down the line!


----------



## Takeanidea

louiebh said:


> ahh fair enough I was signed up to the newsletter but I didn't receive any notification that 1293 was released so i was assuming its being done via another method
> 
> I was looking into a high end DAC i have a custom built ODA and ODAC but currently using my 24 bit dac onboard of my Razer Seiren mic has 192/24 vs my 96/24 odac
> Ive been planning on just having an endgame setup since I got involved in the community, started with dt990 premiums now my HD800s with custom whiplash cables
> ...






I got a Chord Mojo Dac which I think is up there with any DAC I've heard. Maybe you could have a listen to one and compare it to what you currently have. There are many options out there of course. This won the product of the Year Award for 2015 in What Hi Fi and has a huge following on Headfi. It's £399 and has 2 headphone ports which although they are 3.5 size will drive your HD800s to ear shattering volume


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> Wait, is the gaming version out of beta? I haven't gotten any newsletters saying so.


 
 Yes, the current release version has the Gaming preset option. Technically there is no "gaming version". The new version is our new low latency engine for all the presets. So any preset is suitable for gaming.
  
 The difference is that there is one preset, the "Gaming Preset", which is available for purchase separately for $25. In order to license the gaming preset only, you don't have to buy the full $149 Out Of Your Head license. You can just buy the $25 Gamer Preset license.
  
 However, if you then decide you want to license any of the other speaker presets, then you have to buy the "full" version for $149 which includes one preset of your choice.
  
 I hope that makes sense. Basically I wanted gamers to have access to Out Of Your Head technology for $25. Gamers may not care about the different speaker presets. They just want a clean 7.1 speaker experience to use with games.
  
 Of course, if you find that the gamer preset fills all your needs for music, video, and gaming, then you can just use the gamer preset for $25.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Hi Darin!
> 
> I just downloaded the new 1.2beta. I haven't got a chance to test the latency, but it sounds as good as ever! The one thing I did notice though was that when I open Safari on my 2013 Macbook Pro (El Cap) OOYH stutters and pops for a second. I tried to reproduce it with other programs but so far it's just Safari, and oddly, when I open a dock folder with several application shortcuts. I don't know if this is because I only have 8Gb of RAM, but I don't think it did this previously. Otherwise it performs superbly.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @edwardsean ,
  
 Due to the much faster processing engine, the low latency engine is more sensitive to other things going on on the computer. The engine was completely rewritten from scratch in order to reduce the latency. But the new engine also uses more CPU power. The way it stands now, there is no way to dial the performance up and down. It's on "full speed" so to speak all the time. 
  
 It would be nice to be able to change the processing power usage. In theory it could be done by reducing the quality of the sound, but I'm not sure many people would want that.
  
 -Darin


----------



## hekeli

darinf said:


> I hope that makes sense. Basically I wanted gamers to have access to Out Of Your Head technology for $25. Gamers may not care about the different speaker presets. They just want a clean 7.1 speaker experience to use with games.


 
  
 I applaud your thinking. Might just splurge on that for support. What speakers is the preset based on? If it's a "clean" studio monitor 7.1 suitable for movies too, I can see it selling a lot. But you should market it as such too.


----------



## edwardsean

darinf said:


> Hi @edwardsean ,
> 
> Due to the much faster processing engine, the low latency engine is more sensitive to other things going on on the computer. The engine was completely rewritten from scratch in order to reduce the latency. But the new engine also uses more CPU power. The way it stands now, there is no way to dial the performance up and down. It's on "full speed" so to speak all the time.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for clearing that up Darin. That makes sense. Yes, truly, I wouldn't want to sacrifice sound quality either.
  
 I was thinking the slider could throttle how much the CPU is taxed in exchange for increased latency rather than giving up SQ. It sounds like from what you shared that that this might not be possible as it involves the basic code architecture. 
  
 Does the new version improve performance in other ways besides processing speed? If not I may go back to the previous version because I often work on the same system while listening to music.Would there be a way to download the pre-low-latency build? I overwrote it when I installed the beta.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## darinf

hekeli said:


> I applaud your thinking. Might just splurge on that for support. What speakers is the preset based on? If it's a "clean" studio monitor 7.1 suitable for movies too, I can see it selling a lot. But you should market it as such too.


 
 The preset is based on a recording studio. The recording studios tend to have the most acoustic treatment and are also very meticulously calibrated to multi-channel audio standards. It's still using a measurement of a room with speakers though. It's not a computer simulation so there will be some room reflections/interactions as you would have in a room with speakers.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Thanks for clearing that up Darin. That makes sense. Yes, truly, I wouldn't want to sacrifice sound quality either.
> 
> I was thinking the slider could throttle how much the CPU is taxed in exchange for increased latency rather than giving up SQ. It sounds like from what you shared that that this might not be possible as it involves the basic code architecture.
> 
> ...


 
 If you want to go back to the old version, shoot me an e-mail and I can send you a link. Or I guess I should make the older versions available for download for people who would rather minimize CPU requirements and don't need low latency.


----------



## Takeanidea

Anyone got Prerendered files recorded using elcapitan yet? I can't seem to get them to work. Soundflower won't install properly.....


----------



## louiebh

guys i think the clipping issue is coming from the speaker sliders all being on +6db since putting everything on 0 and adjusting only the outputs clipping is nowhere near as horrible as it was!


----------



## songmic

Has anyone here used OOYH with Sonarworks? If so, do they work synergistically or result in a DSP disaster sound-wise?


----------



## edwardsean

songmic said:


> Has anyone here used OOYH with Sonarworks? If so, do they work synergistically or result in a DSP disaster sound-wise?


 

 Hi. Sonarworks is fantastic with OOYH. I don't know if it would work as well if you had a custom file with EQ augmentations for your ear and headphones. However, using stock OOYH presetsI've found feeding it a more neutral EQ curve via SW to work really well. However, there are so many variables at play, you could end up with all the DSP fighting each other and producing something pretty artificial. I found I had to configure SW and match it to an OOYH preset together for a natural sound. The results, at least to my ears, render OOYH even more euphonic and convincing. 
  
 It is definitely worth experimenting with the combination. As for sequence in the chain, I thought through and tried both ways, and definitely SW should come before OOYH. 
  
 All the best to you.


----------



## Dorohedoro

Hi, I just downloaded the demo but there is no way for me to make this work. It says that one or more audio programs are running and the ooyh cant work because of that. I have win7 64 with an asus xonar essence st, please help. Thanks!


----------



## darinf

dorohedoro said:


> Hi, I just downloaded the demo but there is no way for me to make this work. It says that one or more audio programs are running and the ooyh cant work because of that. I have win7 64 with an asus xonar essence st, please help. Thanks!


 
  
 Hi @Dorohedoro
  
 Which Xonar device do you have? Essence STX PCI card?
  
 Unfortunately, I have had others report a similar bug with the Xonar cards. I have not been able to get my hands on one to test yet.
  
 But if you're willing to try a few things...
  
 First, does Out Of Your Head work if you use a different audio device for playback, like your built-in audio? (Select the built-in audio device in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel - Output Audio Devices column.)
  
 Secondly, in the Windows\Control Panel\Sound\Playback Devices, try setting your Xonar as the default playback device *before *launching Out Of Your Head. Does that help?
  
 There are some diagnostic numbers in the bottom left corner of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. When you have the Xonar selected, do the numbers appear at all? Do they count up continuously or do they "hover" around a particular value?
  
 The other option is to try turning off "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device." You can find this option if you go to "Windows\Control Panel\Sound\Playback Devices" and right-click on the Xonar device. Then select Properties and then the "Advanced" tab. Uncheck "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device." Then hit OK or Apply.
  
 Does that help at all?
  
 I am not familiar with the Xonar cards, but have you tried disabling or exiting any Xonar software that comes with the card? I am not sure if the card requires ASUS software in order to run. But definitely disable all the Dolby software and make sure it's not running as a service or background app.
  
 I am trying to get a hold of a Xonar card to test and see if I can get it to work.
  
 You can also e-mail us directly from our website to continue troubleshooting if you prefer.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Hi Darin:
  
 I've been using the OOYH beta low latency version for about six month, and I'm extremely pleased with how well it works. I'm now using a very high powered computer with an I7 processor, a Samsung EVO 850 SSD, an 16 gb of DDR3 memory.  Probably overkill, but I didn't want the computer to be a bottleneck in any way.
  
 Like Edward Sean, I sent my LCD X's to Latvia to have Sonarworks do  a custom calibration, and I added a Subpac S2 tactile subwoofer and bought an ifi iDSD Micro to give the setup a powerhouse DAC/headphone amp. 
  
 All I can say is I've got a real high end synergy here. It's terrific with both stereo streaming sources such as Classics Online HD, Tidal,
 and does excellent multichannel through Netflix and my offline blu-ray rips. 
  
 So the only real questions I have relate to when this program goes from beta to final version? 
  
 Obviously I notice there are a few glitches left in the program.  One person noted an issue with digital clipping.  I notice it as well,
 and it seem to be associated with the levels in some presets.  Also the program upon first use fails to recognize you've actually purchased the  preset and cuts you off after the first 30 seconds.  Would be nice if this glitch could be fixed as well.
  
 Also, I am on the email list and have yet to receive an update regarding things like new versions, and new available presets.  I think you leave money on the table if you don't have a timely method of telling your customers what new cool stuff they can buy.
  
 Regarding cool stuff, do you still do custom presets?  If so, which presets are available?  I might want to visit and get 3 or 4 sometime later this year. You can PM me about the presets.
  
 Great work Darin and best regards.


----------



## darinf

phoenixdogfan said:


> Hi Darin:
> 
> I've been using the OOYH beta low latency version for about six month, and I'm extremely pleased with how well it works. I'm now using a very high powered computer with an I7 processor, a Samsung EVO 850 SSD, an 16 gb of DDR3 memory.  Probably overkill, but I didn't want the computer to be a bottleneck in any way.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi @phoenixdogfan
 Thanks for your post and supporting Out Of Your Head.
 Sounds like you have an "ultimate" setup for using Out Of Your Head. I also love pairing the SUBPAC with Out Of Your Head.
  
 I realize there are some bugs, as with most software. Regarding the clipping, we recently changed the Windows version so that the levels across the board are lower. For people with previous versions, Out Of Your Head will reload their previous level settings when you upgrade to the latest release version, so the levels will still be high. But for others, the default levels are lower and set to 0dB, but now you can raise the volume up to +6dB if the lower levels are not high enough for some people. So, if you download and install the latest version from our website, you can go through your presets and hit the Reset button to set all the levels at 0dB. This should help reduce any clipping.
  
 On Mac, there was no change since clipping is not a big problem.
  
 Regarding the license bug on Windows, we have been trying to figure that out for it seems like a year. I thought we had it fixed, but it still seems to happen on most systems. We have a bunch of code to try to reset everything after Out Of Your Head launches to try to fix that problem. But Out Of Your Head still has problems telling the driver that the preset is licensed. One work around is to switch speaker presets back and forth right after Out Of Your Head is launched. This seems to properly load the license status. Sorry about the bug.
  
 I agree that Out Of Your Head could be a lot more robust and a lot more polished, but it's basically me and a programmer doing this and we tend to focus our resources on new features and new products. Although we do spend a fair amount of time fixing bugs as they pop up.
  
 Yes, I am bad about sending out announcements. I don't like bothering people with e-mails like I get all the time from other companies. But you're right. At the very least, I should get the word out when we have a new version or released our low latency and gamer version. Sorry about that. I have made some annoucements on our Facebook page and on Twitter. You can follow/like us and get announcements that way too.
  
 Lastly, yes! We do custom presets. Anyone can come to San Diego or have me come to you to do custom measurements with your ears for the ultimate custom speaker preset. I will PM you with the details and options. If you come to San Diego the cost is around $400 per measurement for most locations.
  
 Thanks again for all your great feedback.
 -Darin


----------



## arnaud

Darin,
  
 The minimum would be to at least keep a published log of the builds and changes / corrections with a download link to latest stable build and an "about OOYH" in the control panel so that one know which version is installed.
  
 A nice improvement would be a check of updates from OOYH control panel with possibility to download / install update.
  
 cheers,
 arnaud


----------



## volly

Hi Darin,
  
 This sounds promising, have you guys thought about putting up your software on Valve's Steam Service?!
  
 Would get a bit more exposure too, will be keeping an eye on the progress of OOYH!
  
 Best of luck!


----------



## Takeanidea

volly said:


> This sounds promising


 
 Hi Volly,
 have you not tried the software yet? There's a free trial where you can get to try all the speaker presets. If you do the trial and you can only afford the 1 free preset take my advice and spend lots of time making sure you get the right choice. Some are better for Movies some are better for Vinyl some are better for Rock some are better for Classical for instance


----------



## volly

takeanidea said:


> Hi Volly,
> have you not tried the software yet? There's a free trial where you can get to try all the speaker presets. If you do the trial and you can only afford the 1 free preset take my advice and spend lots of time making sure you get the right choice. Some are better for Movies some are better for Vinyl some are better for Rock some are better for Classical for instance


 
 Yeah, I'm interested in the trial, but I read that the sound cuts out after 2 minutes of play?!


----------



## darinf

volly said:


> Yeah, I'm interested in the trial, but I read that the sound cuts out after 2 minutes of play?!



Yes, that's true. In trial mode, you can listen to any of the presets for two minutes at a time. 

If you change presets before two minutes is up, then the audio output will not be interrupted. The two minute timer is reset everytime you switch presets. So you can listen as long as you want if you switch presets every two minutes. 

With the gamer preset, you can initiate a one time 7 day trial. This way you can try the gamer preset for 7 days without worrying about the two minute timer. 

-Darin


----------



## dmbr

Daren, are you aware of this problem with Razer Surround: http://www.head-fi.org/t/796284/razer-surround-sound-permanently-prevents-proper-installs-of-other-surround-sound-programs#post_12287717

It's a very popular free gaming surround sound program that I imagine many users who might be interested in the OOYH gaming preset might have installed already...which can be problematic, as per in the linked thread.

The fix I found is annoying because it requires Razer Surround to be left installed and running, even if I'd rather only use OOYH :/


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> Daren, are you aware of this problem with Razer Surround: http://www.head-fi.org/t/796284/razer-surround-sound-permanently-prevents-proper-installs-of-other-surround-sound-programs#post_12287717
> 
> It's a very popular free gaming surround sound program that I imagine many users who might be interested in the OOYH gaming preset might have installed already...which can be problematic, as per in the linked thread.
> 
> The fix I found is annoying because it requires Razer Surround to be left installed and running, even if I'd rather only use OOYH :/


 
 Hi @dmbr ,
 Thanks for the heads up.
 I will try installing Razer and see if I can figure out what's happening.
  
 I'll post anything I find in the other thread you started:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/796284/razer-surround-sound-permanently-prevents-proper-installs-of-other-surround-sound-programs
  
 -Darin


----------



## Takeanidea

I found a workaround for rendering OOYH with music files. I used an Analogue to Digital Converter and fed it with my Chord Mojo with the OOYH software playing and recorded the signal using Audacity through my Macbook. Worked a treat. So now I can listen to OOYH on my phone or my DAP when I'm out and about


----------



## darinf

takeanidea said:


> Anyone got Prerendered files recorded using elcapitan yet? I can't seem to get them to work. Soundflower won't install properly.....


 
  
  


takeanidea said:


> I found a workaround for rendering OOYH with music files. I used an Analogue to Digital Converter and fed it with my Chord Mojo with the OOYH software playing and recorded the signal using Audacity through my Macbook. Worked a treat. So now I can listen to OOYH on my phone or my DAP when I'm out and about


 
  
 I know your work around will work, but you are going from digital to analog and back.
  
 I have not tried installing SoundFlower in El Capitan yet, but I did find this thread about how to do it.
https://obsproject.com/forum/threads/solved-soundflower-and-osx-10-11-el-capitan.37388/
  
 I will have to give a a try to see if it works.
 -Darin


----------



## laserjet6

Hi all,
  
 my experience with the gaming present in the 1293 version: 
 I have an old and low end PC by today's standards: Its a Core 2 Duo @ 3Ghz, 4gb ram and gtx460 running Win7 64bit.
 Using OOYH and my favorite game resulted in constant cracks and interruptions in sound.
  
 However, once I set the OOYH process priority to high in task manager, I got uninterrupted and perfect sound, no cracks or anything.
 This could help others here as well that get degraded sound when performing CPU heavy tasks.
  
 The gaming experience itself is quite good for me. I get good spacial recognition, can pinpoint the source of the sounds and its great to hear how the whole soundscape rotates why I move around and rotate. I only tried Titanfall, but I would expect similar experience in any game that has surround sound.
  
 @Darin,
 1. Using the Gaming profile (free trial) I noticed that the Lsb and Rsb channels are subjectively significantly louder than the rest of the channels when set to same levels and tested using the play button in the program. I had to lower their levels by 14dB compared to others to get subjectively the same loudness. I first noticed this in the game where things behind me sounded louder than in front of me.
 Could this be a specific problem in my setup or are others noticing this as well? I didn't notice this problem with other presets.
  
 2. Also, is there a way to lunch the OOYH process with high priority by default? I wanted to use an argument in the desktop shortcut, but its not a typical shortcut and I can't edit it.
  
 3. I recorded an audio of a movie using audacity as you described earlier in this thread. After aligning the recording with the original soundtrack (to remove the delay until I clicked play) the beginning of the movie was aligned but towards end, there was a 1 second delay (the OOYH recorded track was longer by 1 sec). I noticed then that the stereo mix device was set to 41Khz. I will set it to 48Khz and try again tomorrow to see if the same happens.
Edit: it was the mismatch in the sampling rate. If anyone else is recording the output of OOYH I recommend to check the recording device settings. 
  
 4. Nonetheless, the recorded audio included a lot of "computer" noise as I think it does digital to analog to digital conversion in my crappy integrated sound card. Is there a way to record using wasapi interface in audacity? I cant get it to work: I select speakers as output device in OOYH; in Audacity I select wasapi and speakers (loopback) as recording device. However, I am not able to start recording, as Audacity says the recording device is already in use... If I start recording and then start OOYH, I am not able to select speakers as output, as it says its already in use. Audacity manual on their site does not mention this problem. Any advice?
Edit: I used a software audio cable (VBCable) and was able to record without the noise. 
  
 To buy OOYH a good quality recording of the audio is a must for me as I intend to mix it back to the video and watch on the go, or at nights in the living room where I don't have a PC.
Edit: it seems I achieved good quality. I am yet to watch the full movie, but I'm sure it will be great.
  
 If I buy the gamer license now, will I be able to transfer it to a new PC later?
  
 Thank you


----------



## bigbeard

How exactly does this work for gaming? How would anyone compare this, to simply just using SBX?
  
 In this case, does OOYH have to be used alongside a 3d virtualizer like SBX?
  
 Any comments or experiences?
  
 I currently use a sound blaster z to send virtual 5.1 through optical out,into my schiit DAC/amp, and out my hd800s.
 Can I expect any improvements in virtual surround sound?
  
 Also, how do some of you audiophile purists perceive this emulation? Do you prefer it over non-altered sound?


----------



## Brooko

I've been using it for both music and gaming for the last 6 months (maybe longer).  I've now given my soundcard to my son, and just use OOYH with the gaming preset - using the iFi Micro iDSD.  Don't miss the soundcard at all.  OOYH is brilliant - imersive, gives good positional cues, and with my machine there is virtually no latency.  I find it brilliant.


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> How exactly does this work for gaming? How would anyone compare this, to simply just using SBX?
> 
> In this case, does OOYH have to be used alongside a 3d virtualizer like SBX?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @bigbeard 
  
 Now that the Out Of Your Head engine is low latency, people have found it works well with gaming. There is still some latency depending on the system, but it's much lower than the previous versions. 
 There is a gaming preset available too. The cost is only $25. And it can be used for gaming, movies, music, etc. However, if you want to use any of the other presets, you will have to purchase the full version of Out Of Your Head for $149 and it comes with one free preset.
  
 I have not tried the Creative SBX Pro Studio sound processing. So maybe someone else can chime in about that.
  
 But with regard to Out Of Your Head, generally, when using Out Of Your Head, you should disable all other audio processing software. Most other audio enhancements or virtualization software will conflict with the proper sound of Out Of Your Head. It can be like applying two binaural processes in a chain. (not good!) So, if you do try Out Of Your Head, please make sure all other audio processing or enhancements are disabled. It's not always easy to do that since most audio cards and motherboards come with audio enhancement software that gets installed. You may not even be aware of it until you try to run Out Of Your Head and it doesn't sound right.
  
 As mentioned before, the main difference with Out Of Your Head and all other multi-channel virtualization software is that Out Of Your Head  is based on actual measurements of real speakers in real rooms. We are not synthesizing or computer generating an effect. We are playing back the measurements we make of the room and speakers. That is why we have the different speaker presets. With Out Of Your Head, you can clearly hear the differences in the rooms and speakers. We're not just applying EQ to make it sound kind of like a certain brand of speakers. 
  
 I can't really comment on comparisons or whether it's better with or without Out Of Your Head. But Out Of Your Head is designed to give you the speaker listening experience with all the imaging/sound-stage and presence of a high end speaker system.
  
 The beauty of software though is that you can try it for your self and do your own comparisons for free. It's not often in the audiophile world that you can compare products on your own system with your own ears.
  
 Let me know if you have any other questions.
  
 Thanks for posting.
 -Darin


----------



## bigbeard

darinf, thank you for the input.
  
 I did go to the website and entered my email to receive the code for a free trial, but it has been an hour and I have not seen it (not in my span folder either). Does it typically take some time?


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> darinf, thank you for the input.
> 
> I did go to the website and entered my email to receive the code for a free trial, but it has been an hour and I have not seen it (not in my span folder either). Does it typically take some time?


 
 No, the e-mail is sent out within seconds of submitting your information.
  
 I was having problems with e-mail from my server getting rejected as spam by some e-mail servers.
  
 Please e-mail me at "info at fongaudio.com" and I can send you the link directly.
  
 Sorry about that.
 -Darin


----------



## Khragon

Darren,

I reset my motherboard bios and now the key are not working, what do I do to register again?

Thanks


----------



## darinf

khragon said:


> Darren,
> 
> I reset my motherboard bios and now the key are not working, what do I do to register again?
> 
> Thanks


 
 Yes, sometimes changes to your system can change your UUID value in Out Of Your Head.
  
 Please e-mail us your new UUID from the e-mail address you used to make your original purchase.
  
 To get your UUID:

Launch Out Of Your Head
In the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, double click on any unlicensed preset.
In the pop-up Purchase License window, copy your UUDI value.
Past that value into an e-mail to "info at fongaudio.com".
  
 Once I receive that, I can look up your order and e-mail you a new license file.
  
 Thanks,
 Darin


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm trying to download the latest version of OOYH but it's requiring a user name and password. ??


----------



## darinf

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm trying to download the latest version of OOYH but it's requiring a user name and password. ??


 
 Did you use the trial download page on our website and then did you receive an e-mail with the download link?
  
 If you e-mail me at "info at fongaudio.com" with your e-mail address, I can check to see if you download link works.


----------



## bigbeard

Darin, thanks for the quick response and email.
  
 I am trying to figure out how to use this.
  
 Should I have my windows playback device set out to my typical default, or OOYH?
  
 I opened the program, and I select my spdif as the output and 7.1 game as input.
  
 I hear a lot of noise for some reason. I can adjust for this in the windows slider for OOYH, but if I turn my amps knob up high enough, I still hear the static.
  
 More importantly, I cannot get any sound to play. What may I be doing wrong?


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> Darin, thanks for the quick response and email.
> 
> I am trying to figure out how to use this.
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry about the problems.
  

First, exit Out Of Your Head.
Then set your Windows default playback device to your preferred output device.
Then launch Out Of Your Head.
When launched Out Of Your Head will automatically switch your Windows default playback device to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device. You do not have to switch it yourself.
Then in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, on the right column, click on your preferred output device.
From there, any audio being played from any app should play back through Out Of Your Head and then out to your actual audio output device. (As long as the app is set to output via Direct Sound's default audio device.)
  
 To test, rather than starting with a game, just try playing a YouTube video or iTunes, etc. just to see if it works.
  
 Then for a game, you want to make sure your game is outputting no higher than 7.1 at 48kHz/32bit audio per channel (not likely).
  
 Also, Out Of Your Head outputs two channels at 48kHz/24bit (or 32bit). I assume your DAC can accept that data rate. Or set your DAC up to accept that rate.
  
 Let me know if you still have problems getting it to work.


----------



## darinf

I also forgot to mention that when you quit Out Of Your Head, it will attempt to switch your Windows default playback device back to which ever device you had set before you launched Out Of Your Head.
 Basically it tries to put things back where they were so you shouldn't have to worry about which audio device is set to default in Windows.


----------



## bigbeard

I did as you said, and it does not work. The DAC certainly does support 24bit; I also made sure that OOYH was set to output 24bit as opposed to 32 bit.
  
 When I try to play anything, the background static sound amplified to a loud static sound.
  
 This is my audio setup: PC>internal sound card optical out> Schiit dac > schiit amp> headphones.
  
 Does this program only work with usb dacs?


----------



## Khragon

darinf said:


> Yes, sometimes changes to your system can change your UUID value in Out Of Your Head.
> 
> Please e-mail us your new UUID from the e-mail address you used to make your original purchase.
> 
> ...


 

 Email sent.  Thanks!


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> I did as you said, and it does not work. The DAC certainly does support 24bit; I also made sure that OOYH was set to output 24bit as opposed to 32 bit.
> 
> When I try to play anything, the background static sound amplified to a loud static sound.
> 
> ...


 
 Hmm. OK. That setup should work, but I have not tried using an optical output. But it should work. 
  
 When Out Of Your Head is launched, and you select your output device, so you see an small numbers cycling in the lower left corner of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel?
  
 If you don't see an numbers cycling, then Out Of Your Head is not finding or initializing the sound card.
  
 If you do see numbers cycling, are they hovering around a certain value or are they counting up higher and higher?
  
 One other thing to try is to quit Out Of Your Head.
 Plugin your headphones directly to the headphone jack of your computer.
 Launch Out Of Your Head 
 Select your sound card as the output device in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
 Test to see if the numbers are cycling and see if you have any sound.
  
 If that works, try switching from the built-in headphone output to the optical output in the Out Of Your Head Control panel. Sometimes just switching between output devices can "reset" the output and get the audio working.
  
 Let me know how it goes.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Khragon

Thanks Darin, all working again great now, much improved since 1.1f.  I'm reinstalling Diablo 3 to give gaming a try with my Ether C


----------



## bigbeard

Hi Darin,
  
 I have tried everything that you stated, and nothing works.
  
 There are numbers cycling in the lower left hand corner of the program. They cycle between "2" and "3".


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> I have tried everything that you stated, and nothing works.
> 
> There are numbers cycling in the lower left hand corner of the program. They cycle between "2" and "3".


 
 When you play audio from an app, do you see the green audio level meters in the Out Of Your Head registering sound?
  
 You tried plugging your headphones directly into the computer's headphone jack and selecting the analog output from your sound card in the Out Of Your Head control panel? And you still did not get any sound from the built-in analog headphone output?
  
 If you don't see audio levels, then somehow the sound from the app is not getting to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device. Can you make sure that while Out Of Your Head is running, the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device is set as the default playback device in the Windows Sound/Playback Devices?
  
 Whenever the numbers are cycling and hovering around a value, I have found that always means Out Of Your Head is working and I always get sound from the output of Out Of Your Head.
  
 If you like, I would be happy to schedule a remote control session so I can get Out Of Your Head working. 
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> This is my audio setup: PC>internal sound card optical out> Schiit dac > schiit amp> headphones.


 
 Just curious, does your Schiit DAC have USB? I assume it doesn't and that's why you are using the optical output of your internal sound card.
  
 But if it does have USB, have you tried that?


----------



## bigbeard

No, I do not have USB on my DAC. Just a plain bifrost uber.
  
 Even with headphones plugged directly into the soundcard, it is still a no-go.
  
 n all circumstances, there is a clear indication that audio is in fact playing, indicated by the indicators in the program and in windows. However, the sound is a very loud white noise. as soon as I hit pause n a video, the noise stops, and the level indicators go to 0.
  
 So there  definite communication, it is just that it comes out all jumbled up as noise.


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> No, I do not have USB on my DAC. Just a plain bifrost uber.
> 
> Even with headphones plugged directly into the soundcard, it is still a no-go.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh, I see. That's useful information.
  
 Can you make sure that the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device is set to 48kHz/32bit? (I forgot that you mentioned you had set it to 24bit. It needs to be on 32bit. Sorry about missing that.)
 Your optical output will still output at 24bit.
  
 Let me know if that works.
 -Darin


----------



## laserjet6

Hi,
  
 i posted this earlier, but seems it was overlooked.
  
 Using the Gaming profile (free trial) I noticed that the Lsb and Rsb channels are subjectively significantly louder than the rest of the channels when set to same levels and tested using the play button in the program. I had to lower their levels by 14dB compared to others to get subjectively the same loudness. I first noticed this in the game where things behind me sounded louder than in front of me.
 Could this be a specific problem in my setup or are others noticing this as well? I didn't notice this problem with other presets.
  
 Also, is there a way to lunch the OOYH process with high priority by default? I wanted to use an argument in the desktop shortcut, but its not a typical shortcut and I can't edit it.
  
 If I buy the gamer license now, will I be able to transfer it to a new PC later?
  
 Thanks for your help.


----------



## bigbeard

Hey darin,
  
 I was finally able to get the software to work. All that trouble was due to OOYH not being in 32bit mode, in windows.


----------



## darinf

laserjet6 said:


> Hi,
> 
> i posted this earlier, but seems it was overlooked.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @laserjet6 
 Sorry about missing your earlier post. 
  
 Yes, on some of the presets, the Lsb and Rsb channels can be higher than the others. But you can adjust the levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. The levels you set will be saved. Due to the way the measurements are done and the speaker configuration in the room where we did the measurements, the relative levels of each of the speakers may vary. 
 For higher priority launching, you can create your own shortcut with custom settings.
 See this web page:
 http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/40287-cpu-priority-shortcut-program-create-windows.html
  
 You would use the command:

```
cmd.exe /c start "Out Of Your Head" /high "C:\Program Files (x86)\Darin Fong Audio\Out Of Your Head\Out_Of_Your_Head.exe"
```
  
 If you purchase a license for your current computer but upgrade to a different PC later, just e-mail us with your new UUID value and we can issue a new license for your new computer and de-activate the old license.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

bigbeard said:


> Hey darin,
> 
> I was finally able to get the software to work. All that trouble was due to OOYH not being in 32bit mode, in windows.


 
 Glad you got it working. 
 I should disable the 24-bit setting. It used to work in the non-low latency version.
 Now I just have to remember how to disable/remove that option from the device properties...


----------



## Takeanidea

Anyone else tried a pair of AKG K1000s on OOYH? They are designed to be worn well away from the head so are already partially creating the illusion of listening to speakers


----------



## edwardsean

takeanidea said:


> Anyone else tried a pair of AKG K1000s on OOYH? They are designed to be worn well away from the head so are already partially creating the illusion of listening to speakers


 
 Along the same lines, has anyone tried OOYH with the Abyss. 
  
 Theoretically, OOYH, should not necessarily work better with headphones that attempt to image like speakers. However, I think OOYH (and Smyth) do bring the soundstage forward--in comparison to actual speakers. So, I suspect both the AKG1000 and Abyss will render a more convincing result. 
  
 Can anyone verify this?


----------



## Takeanidea

Yes. I can verify that the AKG K1000 worn away from the ears gives a more convincing impression of listening to a full size pair of speakers. Especially for films. I found myself taking my headphones off I was that convinced I'd switched my speakers on


----------



## edwardsean

takeanidea said:


> Yes. I can verify that the AKG K1000 worn away from the ears gives a more convincing impression of listening to a full size pair of speakers. Especially for films. I found myself taking my headphones off I was that convinced I'd switched my speakers on


 
 Just to confirm, we are asking about the K1000 with OOYH.


----------



## Takeanidea

Yes I am meaning the headphones used with the software


----------



## Jedaite

1. Hello, is there a way to increase the volume? It's kinda low. I'm using the Westone ES5 plugged into my laptop.
 2. Can you use this app with Ak240?
 3. Can you use it with iPod Classic 7th gen?


----------



## darinf

jedaite said:


> 1. Hello, is there a way to increase the volume? It's kinda low. I'm using the Westone ES5 plugged into my laptop.
> 2. Can you use this app with Ak240?
> 3. Can you use it with iPod Classic 7th gen?


 
 Hi @Jedaite 
 Thanks for posting.
  
 1) To increase the volume, you can slide the input and output level sliders up in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. They are not at full volume since many people experience clipping when playing movies or loud audio.
 Just be aware that the levels are set separately for each speaker preset, so they will change when you change presets. But the settings are saved so they should move to the last place you left them for each preset.
  
 Also, before you launch Out Of Your Head, make sure you have the volume level of your output device turned up. If the levels are set low for your DAC, then when you launch Out Of Your Head, the output volume of your DAC will stay at whatever level is was set to when you launched Out Of Your Head.
  
 2) and 3) since Out Of Your Head currently runs on Windows or Mac OS X, you cannot run Out Of Your Head on any DAP's currently. We are still working on a solution for iOS and Android devices, but even then, I doubt an AK player will ever be supported unless AK licenses our technology. AK uses a proprietary OS on their players.


----------



## olegausany

jedaite said:


> 1. Hello, is there a way to increase the volume? It's kinda low. I'm using the Westone ES5 plugged into my laptop.
> 2. Can you use this app with Ak240?
> 3. Can you use it with iPod Classic 7th gen?



This software intended to be used as output device by the player software on your laptop

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Takeanidea

jedaite said:


> 1. Hello, is there a way to increase the volume? It's kinda low. I'm using the Westone ES5 plugged into my laptop.


 
 Use an external amp or DAC


----------



## dmbr

darinf said:


> Hi @dmbr
> ,
> Thanks for the heads up.
> I will try installing Razer and see if I can figure out what's happening.
> ...


Make any discoveries, Darin?

The fix mysteriously stopped working  selecting the E1 DAC in the OOYH control panel now gives distorted audio, and selecting Razer Surround gives no sound.


----------



## jincuteguy

Anyone get this to work with Creative E5, or G5 dac / amp? It works with Chord Mojo DAC / Amp.


----------



## jincuteguy

dmbr said:


> Make any discoveries, Darin?
> 
> The fix mysteriously stopped working
> 
> ...


 
  
 Why would you want to use the Razer Surround sound together with the OOYH software? the OOYH is much better surround sound.


----------



## dmbr

jincuteguy said:


> Why would you want to use the Razer Surround sound together with the OOYH software? the OOYH is much better surround sound.


 I'd rather use OOYH exclusively, but uninstalling Razer Surround prevents OOYH from working


----------



## jincuteguy

dmbr said:


> I'd rather use OOYH exclusively, but uninstalling Razer Surround prevents OOYH from working


 
 What sound card or DAC / Amp  are you using? Like your main sound audio driver? Creative soundcard? RealTek Onboard sound? or what?


----------



## dmbr

jincuteguy said:


> What sound card or DAC / Amp  are you using? Like your main sound audio driver? Creative soundcard? RealTek Onboard sound? or what?


 I'm using an Asus Xonar Essence One (Muses Edition) for a DAC.


----------



## darinf

dmbr said:


> Make any discoveries, Darin?
> 
> The fix mysteriously stopped working
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @dmbr 
 Sorry about not getting back to you.
  
 FYI, I did try installing Razer Surround on my Windows 8.1 machine. When their driver installs, it does seem to permanently "hook" the defualt audio playback device in Windows, so when you run Out Of Your Head, Out Of Your Head will report that that output device in in use by another program, which it is. I was not able to figure out how to get Razer Surround to "release" the Playback Device even if Razer Synapse was not running. I was able to get it to switch to another device and "release" the first device by plugging in headphones into the built-in headphone jack. Razer then hooked the built-in audio device instead of the previous playback device and released it so the previous playback device started working with Out Of Your Head.
  
 However, I then uninstalled Razer Surround using Windows "Programs and Features". Then I uninstalled Razer Synapse. Then I rebooted.
  
 Once I did that, the Razer Surround device was gone as was all the Razer software.
  
 Out Of Your Head then worked perfectly with all the audio output devices.
  
 So, I am not sure if you tried completely uninstalling Razer Surround, but if you did, then Out Of Your Head should work again. 
 However, you definitely have to make sure the Razer Surround virtual audio device does not appear in the Windows Device Manager.
  
 Also, this test was done on Windows 8.1. I think you are running Windows 7, which may yield different results.
  
 So I recommend completely uninstalling Razer Surround, and then we can see about getting Out Of Your Head working again. (If you do use Razer Surround and don't want to uninstall it, let me know and we can figure out a fix.)
  
 -Darin


----------



## fluidz

Tried this with he-500 headphones in Dying Light, I heard a surround effect but dynamics were too flat and visualising of sounds in games were all too distant. I found it difficult to grasp if I was standing next to an enemy or if it was 100 metres away. Would be a great effect to add ambience to a game but on its own it falls short on replicating how things sound in real life. 
Sticking to Cmss-3d.


----------



## darinf

fluidz said:


> Tried this with he-500 headphones in Dying Light, I heard a surround effect but dynamics were too flat and visualising of sounds in games were all too distant. I found it difficult to grasp if I was standing next to an enemy or if it was 100 metres away. Would be a great effect to add ambience to a game but on its own it falls short on replicating how things sound in real life.
> Sticking to Cmss-3d.


 
 Hi @fluidz
 Thanks for trying Out Of Your Head and posting your impressions.
  
 Just curious which speaker presets you were using?
  
 I agree that some of the speaker presets intended for listening to music are generally in fairly reverberant rooms. 
  
 For those people looking for a sound with less reverberant rooms, the recording studio or home theater preset environments would work best since they tend to have more acoustically treated, better damped rooms.
  
 Secondly, with regards to "realism", there's a subtle distinction about what's possible with Out Of Your Head. We do not claim that Out Of Your Head will recreate real-life sound in a virtual world. Out Of Your Head is meant to replicate the sound of a real room with real speakers. So you should hear the sound, in a game for example, as if you were playing that game while sitting in a home theater or recording studio with 8 speakers in the room. If you were to do that, you would hear the "sound" of the room you are sitting in and the distance of the speakers from your location. Therefore, a sound source cannot sound like it's coming from any closer that the nearest speaker is from you listening position. Does playing a game in a 7.1 home theater system sound like "real-life"? I guess it could but it depends on the game too. But I can assure you that the sound you hear in Out Of Your Head is the same sound you would hear if you were in a room with 7.1 speakers.
  
 However, with Out Of Your Head, people often expect a 3D audio only experience where the sounds are not coming from speakers, but generated and positioned in 3D space with no room interactions or wall reflections, etc. Unfortunately, that is not what Out Of Your Head is doing. Out Of Your Head is replicating the sound as if you were sitting in a real room with real speakers. I think very few people have done any gaming on a real 7.1 speaker system, or if they have, don't expect the sound to be completely 3D, but understand that the sound is coming from 8 speakers in the room and expect to hear room reflections and the sound coming from several feet away from the speakers.
 But when you're wearing headphones, people expect the sound to come from anywhere.
  
 There are technologies that use computer algorithms to position audio sources in 3D space, with some success. But we felt that the compromise in the overall sound quality was too great. We designed our software for audiophiles and audio enthusiasts who wanted high quality audio first and foremost. That's why we felt accurately replicating the sound of real rooms with real speakers through measurement was the best way to preserve the high end sound of great speakers.
  
 I hope this explains a little about what we do and maybe helps people understand why they hear what they hear when listening to Out Of Your Head.


----------



## jincuteguy

fluidz said:


> Tried this with he-500 headphones in Dying Light, I heard a surround effect but dynamics were too flat and visualising of sounds in games were all too distant. I found it difficult to grasp if I was standing next to an enemy or if it was 100 metres away. Would be a great effect to add ambience to a game but on its own it falls short on replicating how things sound in real life.
> Sticking to Cmss-3d.


 
  
 You need to try out other Preset, some preset sound really thin and sucks.  But some sound really amazing, you just have to go through each Preset and get the good ones.  CMSS-3D is no match for this OutOfYourHead software.


----------



## soneca

Sorry if this has been addressed. Have been wondering if it works with an external DAC that requires ASIO software? Read in earlier posts that it wouldn't work. Thus not allowing for better digital to analogue converting and amplification? Which kinda defeats the purpose of trying to achieve the best sound quality as possible, or to your preference.


----------



## darinf

soneca said:


> Sorry if this has been addressed. Have been wondering if it works with an external DAC that requires ASIO software? Read in earlier posts that it wouldn't work. Thus not allowing for better digital to analogue converting and amplification? Which kinda defeats the purpose of trying to achieve the best sound quality as possible, or to your preference.


 
 Hi @soneca ,
  
 Currently we support devices which appear as Windows sound playback devices. So if your DAC only has ASIO mode and does not appear as a Windows sound playback device, then it's not supported by Out Of Your Head.
 Most Windows USB DACs have Windows drivers.
 (For sound output, we do not use DirectSound. We use WASAPI Kernel mode.)
  
 Which DAC are you using that only supports ASIO?
  
 -Darin


----------



## jincuteguy

How come Out of Your Head software doesnt' work with Creative G5? And the number in the lower left corner keep going up? but there's no sound.


----------



## darinf

jincuteguy said:


> How come Out of Your Head software doesnt' work with Creative G5? And the number in the lower left corner keep going up? but there's no sound.


 
 Sorry about not getting back to you @jincuteguy ,
  
 I need to e-mail you back with some things to try. I apologize for the delay.
  
 If the numbers in the lower corner of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel count up continuously, then you will not get any sound, as you have found. But the fix is not always the same on all systems.
  
 -Darin


----------



## soneca

Hi darinf

I'm currently using BMC Puredac. Unfortunately it requires ASIO software. But I thought most DACs will require some form of software for windows.


----------



## darinf

soneca said:


> Hi @darinf
> 
> I'm currently using BMC Puredac. Unfortunately it requires ASIO software. But I thought most DACs will require some form of software for windows.


 
 Hi @soneca ,
 According to the BMC Puredac manual, they do offer a Windows driver. Their driver is that same as many other USB DACs. They use the "TUSBAudio" driver. It also installs an ASIO driver. I have used many DACs that use the TUSBAudio driver without any problems with Out Of Your Head.
  
 Please download or install their Windows driver.
  
 Here's the excerpt from page 8 of their user manual:


> [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)]PureDAC with Windows OS[/color]
> Microsoft has not followed the USB 2.0 audio protocol and therefore to use the PureDAC with Windows a driver installation is required. The driver is on the enlosed disk named TUSBAudio.  This driver is known to work with Windows Vista, 7 and 8 and allows the PureDAC to be an operating system’s external sound device.The driver also installs an ASIO interface which allows direct access the PureDAC .  It is the best choice for bit-perfect playback. A recommended player software that works very well with ASIO is the JRiver Media Center. A demo is on the enclosed CD-ROM and there is also an ASIO plug-in for the Windows Media Player.Microsoft’s own WASAPI interface works with PureDAC but ASIO is recommended for best results.As available software changes  frequently please consult our on-line information at www.bmc-audio.com


 
 Let me know if you have any trouble getting your DAC to work with Out Of Your Head.


----------



## soneca

Ohh! Alright I'll give it a try when I get back home. Thanks a lot!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Hey there, so I was sent a trial for this, and I gotta say, I'm quite impressed with some of the presets. I'm a huge virtual surround gamer (Having used Dolby headphone devices, Creative Tru Studio, Creative SBX, Beyerdynamic Headzone, Razer Surround etc).

The OOYH software has some truly comparable presets (though I feel the default preset isn't convincing enough, so you'd have to find a better one).

Some presets are pretty lackluster, and don't seem to do 7.1 emulation well at all, and some others do them just as good as any I've heard.

There are kinks in the software (for some reason I can't easily adjust volume on the output device unless I specifically go into the sound devices and adjust the slider window, which is a huge hassle). Raising or lowering the OOYH volume utself doesn't do anything, outside of mute.

I do wish the preset trials where at least 4 hours or something. I understand it's a trial, but having to pay for a preset you can only test for 2 minutes is absurd to me. Yes, I know I can just re-toggle, but Christ, it's hard to test games if I have to alt-tab every minute or so just refresh the trial.

Also, been told this doesn't work with the Creative X7 for some reason, which is a shame. I would've liked to A-B compare the presets with SBX.


----------



## darinf

mad lust envy said:


> Hey there, so I was sent a trial for this, and I gotta say, I'm quite impressed with some of the presets. I'm a huge virtual surround gamer (Having used Dolby headphone devices, Creative Tru Studio, Creative SBX, Beyerdynamic Headzone, Razer Surround etc).
> 
> The OOYH software has some truly comparable presets (though I feel the default preset isn't convincing enough, so you'd have to find a better one).
> 
> ...


 
 Wow, I am honored that you, @Mad Lust Envy, took the time to test and post about Out Of Your Head. I really appreciate it.
  
 Just to address some of your issues...
 The reason why the Windows volume control doesn't work with Out Of Your Head is that Out Of Your Head bypasses the Windows mixer and uses WASAPI to output to your DAC. Also, when Out Of Your Head is running, it's set at the default Windows playback device, so the Windows volume control is trying to control the Out Of Your Head virtual sound card rather than your DAC.
  
 For DAC/amps that do not have a physical volume control, usually you can open the Windows Volume Mixer and control the volume of your DAC/amp separately. When you click on the "Device" drop down menu, you should be able to select your DAC/amp and control the volume from there.
 I know it's not as easy as pressing volume up and down buttons on the keyboard, but it's a bi-product of the way we are doing the audio processing via a virtual sound card.
  
 I realize that for gaming, a 2 minute timer is not practical. The two minute timer was designed to prevent you from listening to a whole song without interruption. It was implemented before we supported gaming. Now, with the low cost gaming version ($25), you do get a 7 day trial of the gamer preset. I realize that doesn't help if you want to evaluate all the other presets for gaming. I never thought gamers would care about all the different presets.
  
 With regard to the Creative X7, I have had users get other Creative products working, especially USB devices. We don't have one available for testing, but if you want to try to troubleshoot it, please -email us directly and we can see why it's not working. We are working on an update that we hope will be more compatible with some problematic devices like the Asus Essence devices.
  
 Thanks again for trying out Out Of Your Head!
  
 -Darin


----------



## fluidz

I'm going to give ooyh another shot, this time try different presets. I didn't try any preset other than the default gaming one as that was considered the most suitable - I was gaming at the time, so my first impression was based on that alone. 

Which presets have others found works best for gaming to top cmss3d?


----------



## Brooko

MLE - did you try the low latency gaming preset (talk to Darin about it if you haven't).  I used to use an SB Titanium card.  Now all I use is OOYH and 2 channel output from the iDSD.  Magic right there


----------



## dmbr

fluidz said:


> I'm going to give ooyh another shot, this time try different presets. I didn't try any preset other than the default gaming one as that was considered the most suitable - I was gaming at the time, so my first impression was based on that alone.
> 
> Which presets have others found works best for gaming to top cmss3d?


 The gaming preset is indeed the best option OOYH has for that--all others add "room sound/effects" and speaker positioning isn't ideal for placing sounds. The big thing though is latency--with the other presets the delay before sounds play is unbearably noticeable.

That said, the second best option in terms of spaciousness, positioning, and distinctive rear vs front would be the Revel preset, in my opinion. It particularly shines with multichannel input (including stereo upmixed to 5.1/7.1))--I prefer the Magical speakers preset for when I (rarely) play in stereo or want a more "stereo sound" as it's similar sounding but stronger from the front and center, not as spread out and biased to the sides and rear. Best for vocals and live recordings.

 tl;dr
-Gaming preset best option for AV purposes/gaming to latency alone
-Revel preset excels the most in terms of spacialization and placement
-Aside: Magical speakers preset best for what Revel and Gaming don't suit


----------



## dmbr

darinf said:


> We are working on an update that we hope will be more compatible with some problematic devices like the Asus Essence devices.




Awesome! Let me know if you could use a beta tester for resolving Asus Essence (One) issues. 

Uninstalling Razer Surround did not resolve the problems with distortion or "bad output device" errors; rather it eliminates the workaround of selecting the Razer Surround device for output, so I actually need RS installed to use OOYH whether I use RS or not.

I even tried cleaning all things "Razer" from my registry with Regedit to no avail 

It may be of use to say that the Creative X-fi MB3 software experiences the exact same problems, but I can find no workaround there because MB3 doesn't recognize RS as a compatible device.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

dmbr said:


> The gaming preset is indeed the best option OOYH has for that--all others add "room sound/effects" and speaker positioning isn't ideal for placing sounds. The big thing though is latency--with the other presets the delay before sounds play is unbearably noticeable.
> 
> That said, the second best option in terms of spaciousness, positioning, and distinctive rear vs front would be the Revel preset, in my opinion. It particularly shines with multichannel input (including stereo upmixed to 5.1/7.1))--I prefer the Magical speakers preset for when I (rarely) play in stereo or want a more "stereo sound" as it's similar sounding but stronger from the front and center, not as spread out and biased to the sides and rear. Best for vocals and live recordings.
> 
> ...




I disagree on speaker placement not being ideal for placing sounds. It's what's been used for Dolby headphone, THX tru Studio, Creative SBX to name a few, and it's MUCH easier to pinpoint audio directions than any other alternative, IMHO (asides from pure 360 degree, circular soundfield which aren't widely available, and I know little about).

When you acclimatize your ears to hearing the difference between how things sound in front and behind you, it may as well be a cheat code for the ears.

I didn't get that easy feeling with the gaming preset, compared to some of the other presets with a speaker like reverb. I do agree some have a bit too much, but some have a good balance.

It's essentially why Dolby headphone 2 is widely favored over the less processed Dolby Headphone 1. Both have convincing surround positional cues, but DH-2 makes rear sounds more distinguishable compared to DH-1, which may take a split second longer for the ears to discern that it's a front/rear cue not the other.

Another example is DH vs SBX. People do tend to gravitate towards SBX, as it sounds less processed, but at the same time, those who try both say DH surround cues are more accurate in placement. You give up final PQ, but gain in positional advantage. Really, depends on you priorities. I prefer it lean a little towards surround portrayal over sheer SQ.I was dominant in FPS gaming for so long simply because of how much a goos surround dsp helped me pinpoint targets. 

I gather some of the presets present a better balance than too little or too much, but having some reverb/processing is easier to pick up audio cue placement, IMHO. If you're going for pure fidelity, than some can argue about the processing, but then, this isn't for audio purists. This is surround emulation.

I'll retract my statement on the gaming preset if perhaps it was the wrong game to test. I'll test the better presets at length later on, and hope to come up with some written impressions on them for my guide. I just wish I had an analog amp atm. The X7 being purely digital in terms of volume control is problematic in many ways outside of this testing.


----------



## paulchiu

Just stopping by and sharing my recent experimentation with Darin's OOYH system.
  
 It takes some patience to setup the software correctly with software players like Audirvana Plus, JRiver Media Center 21 and VLC on a Macbook Pro.  Darin Fong was extremely helpful with support on getting everything to work.
  
 Once set up, flipping through the 23 presets require a few hours time and willingness to start and stop various software programs.  You may even have to reboot your Mac at some point.  After a while, you get the hang of it and OOYH will work smoothly with your 2-channel tracks.
  
*With stereo files*, I found with my unique inner ear geometries that Mt (18). Marten Coltrane Momento Speakers was excellent with MBP to Hugo to Telos Fujisan (my favorite 24/7 iPhone earphone).  Telos has a holographic signature and Mt preset expanded that airiness even more so, to the right and left and in front.
 Still using Mt (18), I turned to:
 Bose QC25 - more bass but the airiness was curtailed.  (This did sounded great inside an Airbus 380 cabin, more later)
 Shure se846 - body warming bass and nearly as much 3D space projection as the Telos with Mt (18).
 Sennheiser momentum wireless - probably the best way to go without cables. Yes!  OOYH works wirelessly with just the Macbook Pro.  Here, with Mt(18), we have air, bass, and without wires a truly large speakers-in-the-room sensation.  After a CD or two with this setup, you do feel the headphone is no longer there.  (Try this in the late evenings)
  
*With 5.1 and 7.1 tracks*, I tested this during my 7+ hours flight from JFK to CDG inside an Airbus A380.  I had the Macbook Pro and a Hugo connected via Curious Cable.  I had the Bose QC25 and the Shure se846.
 The best preset I found for my inner-ear geometries was the Hr (12) Acapella Spharon.  I had the recently released 7.1 Surround Star Wars Awakens digital download with me along with last year's Mad Max.  The se846 was the better phone for movies with OOYH.
 In the darken cabin, the experience with OOYH running on the Macbook prp + curious +hugo to se846 was nearly identical to the memory of my first screening of Awakens at the AMC Loews Lincoln Center Sqaure 13 IMAX 3D venue.  The major differences were screen-size (duh) and the absence of ear-splitting levels of IMAX piercing sound.
 With OOYH using Hr (12), I get to control my level on the Hugo ever so slightly.  The imaging is pure beauty.  The opening sequence crawl with William's signature theme, then followed with an awesome Imperial warship making effective use of OOYH's placement of said vehicle doting its path from slightly behind my airplane seat through my torso and fading outwards into the first-class seats.  I enjoyed the entire film with great spatial impact of the OOYH Hr (12) preset.  After a while, the Shure disappeared and there were nothing inside my head.  During some turbalence, the slight floating aspect of the cabin added to the effects of the final aerial/space dogfight sequences.
 Portions of the movie with great low bass was realistically presented with near upper torso warmth, as with true room speakers.  OOYH's rendition of the LFE in the 7.1 realm is terrific.
  
 Since the flight, I tried the Sennheiser Momentum wirelss just with the bluetooth from the Macbook Pro 15 (2014).  To my surprise, it came very close to the sound of the Macbook Pro to Hugo to se846.  I do prefer the Hugo sound more as it has more nuance, details and realism of instrumentation.
  
 In summary, I enjoyed OOYH immensely.  The software based system sounds great with better gear.  It scales much better with TOL headphones.  It is heaven with the likes of HD800 S.  The spatial projections can be achieved starting with the right preset (you job is to find which one fits your own inner ear geometries) with even the cheapest of headphones, but better cans will enhance the details and the illusion of space and air above and in-front of your head.
  
 I think Darin Fong has a clear winner here with OOYH.  It is an easier to use alternative to he Realiser A8 I own since 2011.  With effort, I can get presets for my Smyth Realiser to emulate more elaborate theater setups, but who has the time.  I hope that OOYH continues to provide more presets so the full capabilities of our collection of headphones can be harnessed for spatial out-of-your-head emulation.
  
 Paul Chiu
BillyChiu.com


----------



## Jerdl

Hi here !
  
 I'm new in this forum, i'm looking for a good HRTF software and i've tested the track in demonstration for Out Of Your Head, and it's awesome, like a real HRTF sounds.
  
 In this way, i would like to test Out Of Your Head but, like someone else 10 pages ago, i got this creepy message that tell's my Sound Card is already used.
  
 My computed is powered with an Asus Xonar Essence STX, and i have tried : 
  
  - In Playback Option :
  Selecting my Focusrite's Soud Card Driver as default -> Dont Work
  Selecting Any Other Audio Driver than sur Asus Xonar Essence STX -> Dont' work
  Selecting the STX -> Don't work
  
 I have tried to Disabled the STX and to reactivate, after and before launching OOYH software -> Dont work
 I have tried to uninstall - Reinstall the the driver, on another side i've installed UNi Xonar Audio but it dont work too.
  
 I have tried also to kill all app at boot and any software, C-media panel Included, that can conflict with OOYH.
  
 i have an built-in Audio in one of my screen, and i can ear clearly that it works on it with the OOYH lunched, but any attempt to select the STX Sound card failed to "Already used".
  
 Any Idea ? I'm running out !


----------



## darinf

jerdl said:


> Hi here !
> 
> I'm new in this forum, i'm looking for a good HRTF software and i've tested the track in demonstration for Out Of Your Head, and it's awesome, like a real HRTF sounds.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Jerdl,
 Welcome to the forum.
  
 First of all, Out Of Your Head is currently no compatible with ASUS Xonar Essense PCI-E cards due to a problem with the ASUS drivers. We have a beta version that we are close to releasing that will work with the Xonar, But it's going to be another week or so.
  
 However, I would assume the Focusrite device should work.
 When you select the Focusrite device in the right column of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, do you see any numbers in the bottom left corner of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel?
 If you do see numbers, are they "hovering" around a value, or are they counting up higher and higher?
  

  
 Also, if you're interested in trying the beta version, please e-mail us at "info at fongaudio.com".
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Jerdl

Hi Darin, thanks for your fast answer !
  
 It's a Saffire 6 connected in USB and it work well with OOYH, besides it cannot support low latency (OOYH told it), the numbers swifts rapidly between 2 and 7 and i dont think that i heard some lag or whatever, i havnt experienced much with this device.
  
 I've seen the Movies demo, and i think i can heard some "off-phase" at many moments, some noise-cancelling-like  (i hate that) ... is it possible ? Maybe due to the movie itself ? (headphone : DT990pro)


----------



## darinf

jerdl said:


> Hi Darin, thanks for your fast answer !
> 
> It's a Saffire 6 connected in USB and it work well with OOYH, besides it cannot support low latency (OOYH told it), the numbers swifts rapidly between 2 and 7 and i dont think that i heard some lag or whatever, i havnt experienced much with this device.
> 
> I've seen the Movies demo, and i think i can heard some "off-phase" at many moments, some noise-cancelling-like  (i hate that) ... is it possible ? Maybe due to the movie itself ? (headphone : DT990pro)


 
 OK, after re-reading your post, I now understand what you were saying about the Focusrite. Sorry about that. But I am glad at least it's working.
  
 I am not 100% sure I know what you mean by "off-phase". On some speaker presets, the rooms were "brighter" and therefore have more reflections off walls, floor, etc. This can sound like out of phase audio because the room reflections are delayed slightly from the sound coming directly from the speaker. Even in the rooms that are very well damped like AIX Studio or Mi Casa or Genelec Recording Studio, there are still room reflections that can be heard but they are considerably less than some of the other rooms.
  
 I am not sure if that's what you are hearing or if it's some other artifact.


----------



## Jerdl

After some tests with a phase correlation VST i can tell that it was just me, the tracks are perfectly in phase.
  
 I got a weird situation where the ASUS Xonar essence STX can modify the sound even it was not selected in the Audio Output Panel : Selecting 2 or 8 Channel in the Asus Panel change clearly the sound, and i dont know what i prefer personnaly.
  
 I've tested OOYH in Elite Dangerous and it works very fine, a little more that the Dolby Surround mode, even if it lacks a bit of punch on the Front Side


----------



## darinf

Hi everyone,
  
 Just a heads up that we just posted an updated version of the Windows version of Out Of Your Head. 
  
 I wanted to let people know, especially since people were having problems with some DACs like the Asus Xonar prdoucts and others. I think we have fixed a lot of those incompatibilities.
 We also now support Roon! I know a few people have asked about Roon compatibility.
 And lastly we finally have a "Release Notes" page for the Windows version that will be updated every time we release a new version. (We will work on a Mac version of release notes too.)
  
 Let me know if you have any questions or problems with the new version.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## esimms86

Darin, any news/comments/insights on the recently announced Smyth Realiser A16? It's supposed to include capture of vertical sound information for modeling, say, a Dolby Atmos system. There's already a thread here on headfi, including a link to the Smyth informational pdf file. There's also a YouTube video which, unfortunately for me, is in French.

Esau


----------



## darinf

esimms86 said:


> Darin, any news/comments/insights on the recently announced Smyth Realiser A16? It's supposed to include capture of vertical sound information for modeling, say, a Dolby Atmos system. There's already a thread here on headfi, including a link to the Smyth informational pdf file. There's also a YouTube video which, unfortunately for me, is in French.
> 
> Esau


 
 Hi @esimms86,
  
 Good to hear from you.
 I think as a MOT here, I am not really allowed to comment on what may be considered a competing product. I just don't want to risk any violation of the terms of Head-Fi.
  
 I can say that we have the capability of capturing and playing more than 8 speakers including height or overhead speakers. However we don't have anything available for release yet.
  
 We are also still waiting for a way to playback more than 7.1 content on Windows or Mac. 
 Maybe there is a way to play Atmos or DTS X or Auro encoded content on a computer already. I am not aware of any though.
  
 If you want to take a discussion "offline", I am happy to via e-mail.
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Takeanidea

The OOYH software takes up a lot less space and money than the Realiser and is a lot less hassle to change the sound signature if thats of any consideration.


----------



## esimms86

Nice review by Eric Neff for Headphone Guru. Congrats Darin.


----------



## darinf

esimms86 said:


> Nice review by Eric Neff for Headphone Guru. Congrats Darin.


 
 Thanks @esimms86.
 Yes, I was very pleased to see that review.
  
 Must be a good day for press for me. Today I was on the Home Theater Geeks show with Scott Wilkinson. He broadcast today's show live from THE Show Newport.
  
 I was honored to be included on a show with people like Kevin Voecks, Andrew Jones, Mark Waldrep, and Owen Kwon.


----------



## musiclover2015

Hi Darin,
  
 I am getting addicted to few presets already in the trial version on my windows laptop. Can you let me know which preset did you use to convert 'Transformers' in your online demo, that would help me deciding on the presets to buy with the product.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## darinf

musiclover2015 said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> I am getting addicted to few presets already in the trial version on my windows laptop. Can you let me know which preset did you use to convert 'Transformers' in your online demo, that would help me deciding on the presets to buy with the product.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 Hi @musiclover2015,
 Glad you're enjoying Out Of Your Head.
 The preset used on the Transformers clip was the Acoustic Zen preset.
  
 FYI, in the online demo, the preset used is always printed in the lower left corner of the video.
  
 -Darin


----------



## musiclover2015

darinf said:


> Hi @musiclover2015,
> Glad you're enjoying Out Of Your Head.
> The preset used on the Transformers clip was the Acoustic Zen preset.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great, I thought so, that's my fav preset so far with 'Magical Speakers' right behind it. And which one of presets comes free with purchase of OOYH ?


----------



## darinf

musiclover2015 said:


> Great, I thought so, that's my fav preset so far with 'Magical Speakers' right behind it. And which one of presets comes free with purchase of OOYH ?


 
 When you purchase an "Out Of Your Head License with one preset", you have the choice of any of the presets to include in your license.
  
 That's why we recommend listening to all the presets in trial mode so you can decide which preset you want to include with your license.
  
 The only different option is the Out Of Your Head "Gamer License". That one you do not have a choice of presets.


----------



## musiclover2015

darinf said:


> When you purchase an "Out Of Your Head License with one preset", you have the choice of any of the presets to include in your license.
> 
> That's why we recommend listening to all the presets in trial mode so you can decide which preset you want to include with your license.
> 
> The only different option is the Out Of Your Head "Gamer License". That one you do not have a choice of presets.


 
  Wow..That's cherry on the cake with a free preset of user's choice. Can you please name the presets used in Videos Demos, as most of the demos are not named. Also, did you use 5.1 Videos to convert with presets or regular sounding videos ?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

The Realizer is basically a microprocessor in a box (probably a Linux box) running software programs. And the processor is at least 8 years old, given when the Realizer was first introduced.
  
 It's not unfair to ask if similar or better results can be obtained by running an equally capable software program on any of our extremely capable contemporary personal computers many of which have 6th generation i7 Haswell processors, and which can be purchased for thousands less than a Realizer.
  
 An added benefit is one fewer box in the listening area.


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## arnaud

Don't think you're quite right in regards to the a8. Most likely using sharc dsp boards (possibly several in parallel) to get to do the convolution of these long prirs on so many channels in real time. The A16 seems even more powerful.

This does not make OOYH any less brilliant (esp. since it got better with the lag) but I think you may be optimistic in re. to how much processing power these linux boxes have.

Another key thing of the realiser is that it's actually needed to get prirs... The virtualisations coming with OOYH all came from gues what ... an A8 realiser optical out...

Arnaud


----------



## SetiroN

I wish this was well made but, unfortunately, as it is usual with this kind of thing, it's made from amateurs - who of course thought they'd charge a premium price.
  
 Unsigned drivers, amateurish control panel, terrible reaction time, unmeasured lag. You get installation issues on most of newer machines with W8+, a lot of hassle, obligatory restarts, glitches -  I just don't want to deal with any of that. If I wanted the hassle, I'd still be using a virtual audio cable and a bunch of VST plugins into an ASIO host - which at least work reliably and are configurable: even if you overcome the issues, OOYH allows zero configuration and defaults with an unbearable and unrealistic (unless you're trying to simulate a theatre) amount of echo.
  
 And to anyone comparing this to the realiser - you're out of your element. Both from the electronics as well as listening perspective. The realiser uses a custom FPGA that does things that simply cannot (as of yet) be done in software from general purpose processors, regardless of how powerful they are. And comparing the listening experience of a device that takes into consideration your personal head and ear shapes by measuring with miniature microphones to be placed into your ears, as well as your head's position in space in real time, is just silly.
 Claiming to be capable to reproduce the speakers mentioned in the control panel is misleading without taking in consideration the exact headphone in use (ever wondered why smyth only bundles stax 2170s?) AND the specific users' head and ear shapes is misleading. Knowledgeable users will know it's not possible to emulate those speakers but most people will think they're getting something they're not. I have no doubt they are doing the measurements with the speakers mentioned, but the end result just cannot be called an emulation of them.
  
 I was really hoping to find a feasible software solution for my secondary machines but I guess I'll just buy more xonar sound cards, that at least have a resale value (and will generally improve audio quality and I/Os) as with any of them, even basic $40 ones, you get dolby virtual speaker - which is at least as good as any of the all in one software solutions available, and not so far from a full ASIO software processing stack. I suggest everyone looking for a better headphone experience do the same.
  
 By the way, I like how they like to say "one speaker preset free". Free my arse, you pay $150 for it. The word you're looking for is _included_. It should actually say "ONLY ONE SPEAKER PRESET INCLUDED". It's unfortunate that this kind of marketing is allowed in the US.


----------



## arnaud

Darin is a pretty cool dude in person, I would bot throw the stone at him like this. Afaik, he's using a realiser to get both prir and hpeq effects and recovers impulse response from the digital for use in his "realtime" convolution engine.

In my case, it may seem silly but I actually own a few prirs and hpeq (including 5.1 and 7.1 done at AIX studios) but no realiser. I am using OOYH (very very rarely though, I just always watch movies from iphone these days...) with my prir and hpeq (Darin converted them to his filter bank).

Cheers,
Arnaud


----------



## SetiroN

Yeah well, I'm sorry but I tell it like it is, regardless of how cool a dude the owner might be in person.
  
 The end result you get from any audio card with dolby virtual speaker is more realistic, at least a bit configurable and doesn't create problems with your OS. And you get an audio card in the process.
  
 When I listened to the realiser I was BLOWN AWAY. This... this is just an overpriced gimmick.


----------



## Brooko

setiron said:


> Yeah well, I'm sorry but I tell it like it is *for me*, regardless of how cool a dude the owner might be in person.
> 
> The end result you get from any audio card with dolby virtual speaker is more realistic, at least a bit configurable and doesn't create problems with your OS. And you get an audio card in the process.
> 
> When I listened to the realiser I was BLOWN AWAY. This... this is just an overpriced gimmick.


 
  
 Corrected that for you.
  
 Personally - I love it.  Hardly any glitches, and when it occasionally clips, it's usually just a small tweak.  There is a low latency gaming solution which is just brilliant.  I've got rid of the sound card I have now and rely only on OOYH for gaming. Also enjoying the speaker presets for listening.
  
 Its a reasonably low cost and very effective solution for my needs - and especially since the Realiser is out of my budget.
  
 My only issue with it is that there isn't a Linux solution (I switched back from Windows about 3 months go).  If it worked in Linux I'd be extremely happy.
  
 Great programme IMO - and worth the money I paid.


----------



## darinf

Thanks for your honest comments,@SetiroN. I really appreciate it. I believe all feedback is helpful. It will push us to improve.
 And thanks for your kind responses, @arnaud and @Brooko.
  
 I know I've said this before in this thread, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that. 
 I also know that Out Of Your Head is far from perfect and I never expected everyone to like it. It's not for everyone, just like most audio gear. In fact, I completely understand that people would prefer straight headphone listening and not like Out Of Your Head. That's fine.
  
 I did just want to mention one thing. The Out Of Your Head drivers are signed for both Windows and Mac OS X. When the driver is installed, you should see that the driver is signed. You can also check the driver properties:
  

 Maybe you are talking about something else that is not signed?
  
 Anyway, no worries.
  
 The great thing about Out Of Your Head is that people can try it for themselves any time. No need to find a retailer or go to a meet, or rely on other people's impressions, etc.
  
 Just download the trial or listen to our online demo with no need to install any software.
  
 Then if you don't like it, no problem. If you do like it, great.
  
 Since Out Of Your Head will work better for some and worse for others, all I ask is that anyone listen for themselves with their gear and decide for themselves.
  
 -Darin


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Great reply ,Darin.
  
 I've used this program for well over a year now, and I've found it to be excellent, and worth every penny.
  
   I also believe  that ultimately it's unnecessary to have a separate box (even it's using Field Programmable  Gate Arrays) to do this job.  Consider, for example, that a separate blue ray player isn't needed to play blue ray files--something like JRiver works just fine.  Also consider that room and speaker correction can be done from any number of software solutions.  Back when I had a big rig I used a Tact RCS to correct my Ariel 10t's.  Today I use Dirac Live running on my HP to correct my KEF LS50's.
  
   Is speaker emulation any more processor intensive than replaying a blue ray file with 7.1 channel sound? Or doing room and speaker correction,  while replaying a 7.1 channel blue ray file?  Somehow,  I don't think so.
  
 As for a specific set of headphone being needed, that's just ignorant.  This is what Smyh says:
  
 "We judge headphones in a number of ways. How comfortable are they to wear for an extended period of time, can they faithfully reproduce virtualised loudspeakers and how cost effective they are. For example the entire range of Stax headphones are comfortable and can reproduce virtual loudspeakers with stunning accuracy. Hence we continue to use the Stax 2170 for our own internal use due to its cost effectiveness. Sennheiser HD800s on the other hand have the same performance, are almost as comfortable, but are physically more robust, don’t require an external amplifier and they go louder. Hence we have moved over to using these headphones for demonstrations. These are two headphones we use every day and can vouch for their performance and comfort."
  
 It seems that more than one headphone can perform with the equalizer.  Myself, with OOYH I'm using Hd800's and Audeze LCD X;s. A number of users get excellent results with less expensive phones, if the feedback on this forum can be believed.
  
 As for whether OOYH files can come close to Realizer results, consider DF offers personalized measurements (no doubt made using his  Realizer). Perhaps someone who has made use of this service would like to review that service.
  
 As for the default speaker selections that come with OOYH, just listen to each individual one on the trial version.  Myself, I found several that I thought dramatically improved the performance of my LCD X's and HD 800's.  YMMV.   
  
 BTW, even Smyth sees the value of using non personalized measurement on their product.  Consider the following quote from their PRIR exchange site:
  
 "For clarity, the term PRIR means a measurement file made using the member’s own head. A BRIR means a measurement file made using some other head...A BRIR of a high fidelity sound room can be personalised using information from a member’s PRIR. The algorithm comprises a three step process and has the capability to dramatically improve the localisation of the loudspeakers and suppress unnatural room colouration. It does not alter the nature of the room acoustics nor the reverberation. While personalising a BRIR is unlikely to ever sound superior to a PRIR made by the member in the same room, the improvement can be very useful where this is not an option and will often result in a better sounding room than a PRIR made in a regular room. As a result, this option should give members access to a much wider selection of decent sounding files"
  
 In other words, if a BRIR is well done, it can sound very, very good.  Even Smyth Research agrees.
  
 Ultimately, I believe Smyth makes a  quality product, and OOYH while not perfect (but vastly improved from where it was even a year ago) provides many of its functions at a much lower price. 
  
 I also believe that the only two features on Smyth that demand hardware are the head tracker and the measurement microphones.  There's no reason everything else the Realizer does can not be accomplished more cost effectively with software.
  
 ​.


----------



## hekeli

phoenixdogfan said:


> In other words, if a BRIR is well done, it can sound very, very good.  Even Smyth Research agrees.​.


 
  
 "Well done" means using a personalized measurement to begin with to calibrate the "BRIR". There's no free lunch.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Perhaps, but maybe it just means finding an OOYH speaker setting BRIR which closely approximates your personal HRTF.
  
 As I wrote previously,  listen to the trial version and decide if the improvement is substantial.  YMMV.


----------



## edwardsean

hekeli said:


> "Well done" means using a personalized measurement to begin with to calibrate the "BRIR". There's no free lunch.


 

 Personaly, I found OOYH literally the night before I was going to buy a Realiser. i wasn't immediately convinced, but I heard enough to cancel the Realiser. It took time from there. I had to experiment with OOYH and reorient my brain and my system to, ahem "realize" the potential of OOYH. In the end I felt like I had found a "free lunch." Here was the core technology of the Realiser at a fraction of the cost, and decoupled from the desktop-size hardware. 
  
 The problem, of course, is that without hardware of its own, OOYH is dependent on the quality of the hardware you bring. With a Smyth demo they control the consistency of the hardware: DAC, amp, to headphone. OOYH does work with entry level gear, but it scales up beautifully with everything you throw at it. 
  
 I think that part of the problem that SetrioN had was he may have needed more time. It could very well be that his particular HRTF and ear morphology weren't a good match for any of the presets, or it just didn't suit his taste. That's fine. However, at a Smyth exhibition you also have professionals who have prepared that demo, hardware and software, and are taking you through it. I think a more level assessment could be made if SetrioN could have walked from Smyth's demo to Darin's demo. 
  
 OOYH does require some exploration. For me–totally worth it.


----------



## SetiroN

Quote:


brooko said:


> Corrected that for you.
> 
> Personally - I love it.  Hardly any glitches, and when it occasionally clips, it's usually just a small tweak.  There is a low latency gaming solution which is just brilliant.  I've got rid of the sound card I have now and rely only on OOYH for gaming. Also enjoying the speaker presets for listening.
> 
> ...


 
 The correction should be opposite: I'm telling it like it is. You, who have evidently only tried this solution out of the many that exist that do an arguably better job, usually for _actual_ free, not _$150 free. _If you pay for VST plugins, you usually spend less anyway (redline monitor pro is £69 if I remember correctly and the various toneboosters isone/ircam hear were probably even cheaper and Beyerdynamic even has a free one that is quite good).
 Along with the many capable VST plugins I mentioned that you can use in a pro stack, there are free Foobar plugins, or viper4windows and various minor projects, also for linux. All of them require tinkering and generate hassle, but so does this software. On the flipside they usually let you alter the parameters that matter, which aren't the speakers used, but the HRTF paramenters and reverb.
  
 An actual, hassle-free solution is dolby virtual speakers that is included with various sound cards, most notably xonars: even with a $40 xonar dx (which is probably already an upgrade for many) you get a proper virtual speaker simulation that is hassle-free and has 3 presets. It doesn't claim to emulate use big names, but it works better. And the effect can be included in the optical digital output if you want to use an external dac.
 Or the focusrite vrm box that I haven't tried but is highly regarded.
  


darinf said:


> Thanks for your honest comments,@SetiroN. I really appreciate it. I believe all feedback is helpful. It will push us to improve.
> And thanks for your kind responses, @arnaud and @Brooko.
> 
> I know I've said this before in this thread, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that.
> ...


 
 I'm not sure why you and people after you are condescendingly claiming that "this is not for me". Have you bothered to actually read my post? I DO use convolution software, but I'm not rich enough to afford a realiser (which I consider to be the pinnacle of headphone listening, something that I have come to hate after years of speaker listening).
  
 I'm not complaining about what this software is, I'm complaining about how it's made. The unresponsive control panel lacking any configuration simply isn't worth $150, not to mention the multiple installation issues you might run into.
 Amateur software offered at a premium price.
  
 When I am forced to use headphones, I exclusively use speaker virtualisation of some kind, even on my phone. And while I would love to have a software solution that does it effortlessly, buying xonar sound cards for all the PCs is ultimately easier _and better. _Not to mention cheaper, as you can spend much less, or more (I have an essence stx in my main pc), but also get the value of having an actual piece of hardware.
  
 The video demo isn't indicative of the final experience for the main issue I raised from the beginning: this software is amateurish and while some might not have problems, on all 3 of my secondary PCs, all newer windows 10 machines, I got one issue or another: be it awful clipping, necessity to use 16 bit (not sure if that is what caused the terrible quality), only beeps coming out, driver signature issues raised by windows (probably windows' fault, but still), infinitely excessive reverberation. Not one of my systems was able to recreate the video demo and even if I did, I would have had to live with terrible latency and a terrible configuration panel with literally zero parameters _and _the inability to control volume directly.
  
 Oh and in the software world, _anything_ can be tried before purchase, be it with demos (that are usually 30 or 60 days unlimited, not 2 minutes at a time) or with refund policies on the app store of choice. You're not doing something special.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





setiron said:


> Quote:
> The correction should be opposite: I'm telling it like it is. You, who have evidently only tried this solution out of the many that exist that do an arguably better job, usually for _actual_ free, not _$150 free. _If you pay for VST plugins, you usually spend less anyway (redline monitor pro is £69 if I remember correctly and the various toneboosters isone/ircam hear were probably even cheaper and Beyerdynamic even has a free one that is quite good).
> Along with the many capable VST plugins I mentioned that you can use in a pro stack, there are free Foobar plugins, or viper4windows and various minor projects, also for linux. All of them require tinkering and generate hassle, but so does this software. On the flipside they usually let you alter the parameters that matter, which aren't the speakers used, but the HRTF paramenters and reverb.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And I'll correct you again.  I have tried Foobar with VST plugins - a few years ago we had a pretty good thread going with set-ups utilising Dolby headphone.  And we're not being condescending - we are just pointing out that while you are welcome to state your experience - *you do not speak for everyone​. *Neither do I - I'm just relating my experiences, same as you are.
  
 I have no issues with the control panel, or with the glitches you are experiencing.  And for me - Darin's solution gives far better output than either the software /hardware solution of my Titanium internal card, or the Foobar set-up I had - both for music or for gaming. - but especially for movies.  Very immersive.
  
 I bought OOYH when it was promoted on Massdrop for $75.  I love it.  I really miss it in my Linux environment.  I would happily pay the full price $150, and the $25.00 for other pre-sets is worth it to me (I will take advantage of it if there is ever a Linux option).
  
 Again - you obviously have a different experience - but are you honestly trying to tell me that my own experience is wrong because it doesn't gel with yours?


----------



## hekeli

phoenixdogfan said:


> Perhaps, but maybe it just means finding an OOYH speaker setting BRIR which closely approximates your personal HRTF.


 
  
 If you actually read the Smyth stuff carefully, you see that they created to way to calibrate other peoples PRIRs closer to your own ears, but you need microphone to create own measurements first. You are simply referring to other peoples PRIRs (which OOYH also uses) which can be hit and miss, but almost guaranteed to be never perfect. Then there's the new "BRIR" calibration stuff Smyth is only coming out (with BRIR exchange etc fancy stuff) _that noone has even got to test yet, since A16 is still unreleased_.


----------



## edwardsean

setiron said:


> Quote:
> The correction should be opposite: I'm telling it like it is. You, who have evidently only tried this solution out of the many that exist that do an arguably better job, usually for _actual_ free, not _$150 free. _If you pay for VST plugins, you usually spend less anyway (redline monitor pro is £69 if I remember correctly and the various toneboosters isone/ircam hear were probably even cheaper and Beyerdynamic even has a free one that is quite good).
> Along with the many capable VST plugins I mentioned that you can use in a pro stack, there are free Foobar plugins, or viper4windows and various minor projects, also for linux. All of them require tinkering and generate hassle, but so does this software. On the flipside they usually let you alter the parameters that matter, which aren't the speakers used, but the HRTF paramenters and reverb.
> 
> ...


 
 Hey SetrioN, can I just offer this point of clarification?  The headfi community is an intelligent, passionate, and pretty opinionated crowd right? To say the least! You fit right in and you're very welcome. 
  
 Everyone here, and their brother, thinks they're telling it "like it is." But, humility and maturity allow us to understand that we all only have one person's experience. So many different perspectives and values are going to diverge wildly. When they do, generosity and civility lead us to say, "that's fine, I really like this, but it may not be for you." Brother, it's not condescension. It's respect. Also, just in case, me saying that it's not condescension is not condescension either. I mean this sincerely.
  
 Oddly, for a bunch of people gathered around our own individual listening experiences, we genuinely want to look out for each other. We want you to have the best audio experience your finances allow, because we, above all people, know how much music means to you. Please hear this when someone expresses that OOYH might not be for you. We're saying we wish you well with the convolution software and whatever else does work for you. Please also, respect those of us who are saying that we do find OOYH is for us and we don't find it amateurish, problematic, and overpriced. 
  
 All the best to you.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Nobody is saying the OOYH presets are perfect or  that they are as good as a well done PRIR on a Smyth Realizer, only that it's possible Darin might have, depending upon your HRTF, something that matches it closely enough, you're going to feel you're getting a close emulation at a rock bottom bargain price.  If you want better, he does do custom measurements that won't be approximations, but exact HRTF's using premium systems.
  
 And really I don't see what all the controversy is about.  If you want to give it a try, just download the trial version and see if it improves your sound.  If not, no money out of your pocket.  On the other hand if you like it, as I and a few other people in this thread do, then buy it with the preset(s) that work for you.
  
 As for the Smyth, see if you can get a demo, see if it's doing anything that blows OOYH out of the water, and decide if it's worth the extra money, the extra box in your listening room, and the extra hassle of trying to persuade your friendly neighborhood Hi End dealer that you want to take a PRIR of some of his $100k+ systems, so you don't have to buy one from him.


----------



## SetiroN

Quote:


edwardsean said:


> Please also, respect those of us who are saying that we do find OOYH is for us and we don't find it amateurish, problematic, and overpriced.


 


brooko said:


> And I'll correct you again.  I have tried Foobar with VST plugins - a few years ago we had a pretty good thread going with set-ups utilising Dolby headphone.  And we're not being condescending - we are just pointing out that while you are welcome to state your experience - *you do not speak for everyone​. *Neither do I - I'm just relating my experiences, same as you are.


 
 It's really not a point of contention. This software _is _amateurish and _is_ overpriced compared to competing solutions. These are facts: there are less problematic and better working solutions on the market, at a lower price. I'm not sure why you're getting offended by that. I don't speak for everyone, but facts are the same for everyone: if you can't change the HRTF, you just can't. If the control panel is extremely basic, it is.
 There's no respect involved. I'm not offending you or anyone else who uses it, I'm stating facts. Because while this certainly is an opinionated community, there's also a lot of snake oil that gets praised, so what I'm doing here is looking out for people who just don't know about them and think this software is actually the only thing that can make headphones sound like speakers aside from the realiser: it isn't. It can create problems and even if it doesn't, it doesn't allow calibration for your head, while having an amateurish control panel and disabling immediate software volume control. Forum readers need to know about that instead of only reading feedback from people who very clearly don't have any means of comparison and come here to praise ooyh _because the owner is a cool dude. _If he is such a cool dude, hopefully he will take my remarks and improve his software.
  
 Xonar audio cards: $40 and up
 Focusrite VRM box: $70
 Toneboosters Isone VST: $20
 Redline monitor VST: $70
 Beyerdynamic VST: free
 Equalizer APO: free, but you have be able to make it work and also have to to create your own convolution file/find a good one for your head and brain.
  
_ALL _these solutions allow some degree of HRTF configuration. OOYH offers ZERO.
 Why is it such a big deal? Because the HRTF part of the equation is the important one. Not the room or the speakers used. If your brain doesn't recognise the impulse response used as sound coming from the right planes, it's not very useful.
  
 Here are a few example files from Ircam: http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/sounds.html
 some will make no sense to you, some will generate, maybe one or two will actually recreate a properly circular motion along the horizontal plane.
  
 I'm not saying ooyh is a total rip off. But it's not cheap. And it's not very well made.
 Now if you still want to say that $150 is cheap, feel free to do so. I think you're wrong. But at least other people know about the alternatives.
  


phoenixdogfan said:


> Perhaps, but maybe it just means finding an OOYH speaker setting BRIR which closely approximates your personal HRTF.


 
  
 The HRTF and speaker simulation are two separate things. With the realiser you can (or will) take a HRIR and personalise it with your own. With OOYH the HRTF is always the same, only the room's impulse response changes, so while different HRIRs will sound better than others, none will be made for your head.
  


hekeli said:


> If you actually read the Smyth stuff carefully, you see that they created to way to calibrate other peoples PRIRs closer to your own ears, but you need microphone to create own measurements first. You are simply referring to other peoples PRIRs (which OOYH also uses) which can be hit and miss, but almost guaranteed to be never perfect. Then there's the new "BRIR" calibration stuff Smyth is only coming out (with BRIR exchange etc fancy stuff) _that noone has even got to test yet, since A16 is still unreleased_.


 
  
 The HRIRs included in the a8 use convolution for your own specific HRTF, which you create with the mini microphones provided. With the a16 you will be able to share impulse responses, but the device will still personalise them for your own head. A HRIR alone is not very useful to anyone but the creator and people with very similar head/torso/ear geometries.


----------



## arnaud

Setiron,
  
 What I find bizarre is that you're assuming all of us use OOYH with the builtin presets.
 I tried them for myself and none work, I am using my own PRIR/HPEQ set that came from A8 measurements.
  
 Next, you're saying there are all these alternative convolution engines but are they that easy to use?
 By this I mean 2 things: 1) being able to be easily setup for 16 filters (8.1 to each ear) and 2) work with reasonable lag in conjunction with whatever media player I use on my computer (iTunes, VLC video player and what not).
  
 This is a genuine question because, last I checked, that sounded like a lot of trouble (just making VST compatible filter was beyond my skills...).  OOYH was simple enough for me since it's recognised as a sound card on my mac and I just need to copy the filter bundle I got from Darin into the proper folder and am done.
  
 cheers,
 arnaud


----------



## Brooko

setiron said:


> Quote:
> It's really not a point of contention. This software _is _amateurish and _is_ overpriced compared to competing solutions. These are facts: there are less problematic and better working solutions on the market, at a lower price. I'm not sure why you're getting offended by that. I don't speak for everyone, but facts are the same for everyone: if you can't change the HRTF, you just can't.


 
  
 Again - its not fact but an opinion.  It may be amateurish or overpriced to you.  It's not to me. And what made you think I was offended.  You and I aren't going to agree - so how about you have your opinion, I'll have mine.  You stated your points.  I'll exercise my right to disagree and ignore


----------



## phoenixdogfan

That's the beauty of OOYH.  I don't want to personalize the software to my HRTF, I want to find one that fits.  Just like I don't want to walk into a shoe store and stick a broom in the toe of a shoe I fancy and lean on it until I can get something I can walk in without getting blisters.  If there something in the OOYH inventory that is a good fit (and,believe me did I ever find something), then I'm golden.  If not (as seems to be the case with you) , then go to another shoe store, but please don't tell everyone who found good footwear that all the shoes are amateurishly made and overpriced especially when there are people picking up Church's shoes at two cents on the dollar, if that.
  
 And as for not having any basis for comparison, consider that I've been an audiophile for 45 years, have owned Bose 901's, EPI Mini Towers, Rodgers LS3/5a's, MartinLogan CLS's, Ariel Accoustic 10t's, Shure 400 series IEM's,  and currently own Sennheiser HD 800's, Sennheiser IE 800's,  Audeze LCD X's, and Kef LS50's.
  
 I've also seen every major Rock Group from the 70's and 80's from Linda Ronstadt to the Rolling Stones, to CSNY, go Pink Floyd;  spent many a night in clubs listening to live Jazz, and attended over 100 classical music concert at Severance Hall in Cleveland and the Shermerhorn Hall in Nashville.  In short I know what I'm talking about,  and while I too think Darin is pretty cool, he wouldn't get any of my support if his product didn't effect a huge improvement in three of the world's best headphones--the ones I own.
  
 I also own TB Isone, btw, and it doesn't come close to doing what OOYH does for my systems.  And yes I do know how to go about setting it up.
  
 And Darin is continuously improving the software, and listening to his customers which, of course, is why we think he's cool.
  
 BTW, if you're going to set yourself up as an arbiter and expert on what is and is not a worthwhile product for his potential customers and all the rest of us, at least do us the courtesy of explaining what makes you so quintessentially qualified for the job.


----------



## SetiroN

arnaud said:


> Setiron,
> 
> What I find bizarre is that you're assuming all of us use OOYH with the builtin presets.
> I tried them for myself and none work, I am using my own PRIR/HPEQ set that came from A8 measurements.
> ...


 
 I'm sorry to have assumed that, I believe you are the only one using your personal impulse response. But you see... you had to send the files to Darin, so that he could provide files to replace the default ones. That's not how things should be done. The software's control panel should have options to load your own IR and change the latencies, but it doesn't. Instead, it focuses on fancy speaker names. It's unfortunate.
  
 Other convolution engines are inherently complicated to setup system-wide. Which is why I'm suggesting to buy a xonar card/focusrite vrm box if you want something that is easy to setup and works system wide: it's cheaper, easier and with no drawbacks.
 A loopback through a VST host is low latency if you use ASIO drivers and can be done on any OS with nearly limitless options as there are countless VST plugins that you can concatenate; but you need to know how to use them.
 Otherwise on windows you can use equalizer apo, on linux jconvolver, and I'm sure there's something for mac too, but they're even harder to setup.
  
 Again, I'm not against this software. I _wish _it worked well. But, for my standards, it doesn't.
  


phoenixdogfan said:


> That's the beauty of OOYH.  I don't want to personalize the software to my HRTF, I want to find one that fits.


 
 The point is that OOYH uses _one_ HRTF, either from a dummy head or Darin himself. The profiles only change the room and speakers, not the HRTF.
  
 Arnaud had him provide a way to change the default files with his personal ones, but aside from that, you can't change it.
  
 Some rooms will sound better than others, but the fundamental issue of binaural audio is the shape of your head and ears changing how sound waves reach your eardrum. And on OOYH you can't change ANYTHING except volumes, forcing 16 bits and the speakers used.
  
 Here's hoping Darin will listen to me as well. As of now, I don't think it's worth $150 because an entry level xonar card does it better and doesn't have any of the drawbacks. I don't think I have to list which live concerts I've been to (?) to say that.
  
 When a future version will solve the compatibility issues and allow you to choose between multiple heads, not just multiple rooms, I will change my opinion and buy it.


----------



## edwardsean

I have to say, I wasn’t sure about continuing this debate started by SetrioN. And, yet… I found myself possessed of some time, and I felt a responsibility to not leave the mistaken impression that SetrioN was right. Okay, just kidding, but–with respect–I did want to offer a counter perspective to some issues he raised.
  
*My Background: *To Phoenix’s point regarding background, I’ve been involved with headphone audio for decades and I consider my gear top-tier (Tidal Hifi > Sonarworks > OOYH > Synergistic Research USB > Audiophilleo transport > Moon Neo 430HAD > Double Helix Molecule Elite > HD800, etc.) I’ve been involved with audio engineering and have used software plugins since their inception and have rafts of the very best pro-audio plugs. I’ve used convolution software since it was invented for pro-audio, years before Smyth brought it to home audio. 
  
 In–my–opinion, OOYH is neither amateurish or overpriced. 
  
*Amateurish?*
 I get what SetrioN is saying here, I do. Along with him, I wish that OOYH was a more refined product in terms of performance, features, configurability, UI, etc. I think Darin would be the first to say there are issues that need to be addressed in the future. If SetrioN’s criticism has pushed Darin in any positive way forward, then I’m glad for it. But, to my thinking, “amateurish” is not exactly the right word in our context.
  
 The audio world is a funny place, where you have juggernauts like Sony and Sennheiser in the same market as small shops like MrSpeakers and Tralucent. At the extreme, is Charles Altman’s Tera-Player. It’s not exactly the most um… “professional” DAP, with it’s “super-sophisticated” UI and “dizzying array” of features. Yet it’s so highly regarded, that if you want one, you have to send in an application, along with 10,000€ [sic., and sick]. Does it look like one man made it in his garage? Yeah... Can you call it "amateurish"? I guess. But, similar to OOYH, I think that would mislead people about what it can do. 
  
 In terms of software plugins you have a giant like Waves whose plugins always have great feature sets, clever UIs with attractive graphics, and then you have small operations like Paul Frindle’s Pro Audio DSP and Michael Carne’s Exponential Audio. These guys are genius-legends in the field, but I cringed when I had to use their earlier plugins. But, here’s the thing, they were more effective and sounded better than the majority of the field of competition. My point is that the best products are not necessarily made by those with the resources to deliver the most polished results. 
  
 To my ears, OOYH sounds better and is more effective for audiophile purposes than its competitors no matter the features others may support. I’ve been through the plugins SetrioN mentioned (except Focusrite VRM, because it involves hardware) and many he didn’t. When a new headphone-speaker virtualization plugin emerges, I check it out. Some are good, some are bad, some allow you to configure HRTF, some don’t, but no matter how professionally executed, none of them yield the caliber of audiophile sound as brought to us by our good ol’ “amateur” plugin designer, professional cool dude, Darin Fong. Which brings me to…
  
*Overpriced?*
 I mentioned Waves because they are the largest, most established software plugin developers around. You’ve heard their stuff on virtually every hit track in the past decade. I’m a big fan of their plugins. So, when, earlier this year, they released their NX Virtual Mix Room, I jumped on it. Over the plugs mentioned so far, it represents the newest tech available, and it’s everything OOYH isn’t. It looks great, the UI is a pleasure to use, it uses your computer cam for real time head tracking, and yes, it allows you to input your own HRTF. So I anxiously dug through my desk for that free tape measure I got at Ikea and carefully measured my head circumference and interaural arc and plugged in the numbers.
  
 I explored the plugin over time, adjusting all the things you can’t configure in OOYH, just like I did with Toneboosters Isone, Redline Monitor, Flux Ircam, etc., etc. It’s really well done; the HRTF adjustment is great, and I think it sounds like… not at all what I wanted. I vastly prefer OOYH, which I found really interesting. You have to understand, companies like Waves and Flux are not consumer audio hacks. If anyone knows what they’re doing with psychoacoustics–they’ve proved themselves year over year. These guys define professional and hold the high regard of audio engineers around the world. And as I thought about it, maybe that’s the problem. 
  
 It’s not that these aren’t great products, but they, along with most of those mentioned by SetrioN, were designed as a solution for studio engineers to test mixes when they don’t have access to a monitoring room. They help solve a bunch of technical problems involved in translating a mix to speakers when all you’ve got are headphones. These products perform that function with varying effectiveness and varying sound quality. But, even at their most successful, the goal is to replicate a precise, sterile near field monitor. That’s not what I want. I want an emulation of a room-filing euphonic-sounding floor speaker. Whether the result actually matches the sonic signature of the specific speaker in the preset title is not something I care about. 
  
 SetrioN, you stated that OOYH “_is_ overpriced,” and that this is a fact because the competing software is cheaper. However, I’m sure you’re aware that just because something is priced over the competition doesn’t mean it’s overpriced. It has to be priced over what people think it’s worth paying. Starbucks is priced over Dunkin' Donuts. Is it overpriced? Maybe. Again, I do understand the concern. But, that’s not something you can determine as a fact all by your lonesome. The community in the market determines that together and casts votes with their wallets. 
  
 What I’m trying to say in the end, is that the best of the competing software may have their uses, but no matter how well executed, they don’t sound like, or anywhere near as good as, OOYH for audiophile applications—to me. How good does OOYH sound to me? Don’t tell Darin, but I would’ve paid more than $150.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Spoiler: Open to see the full post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you @edwardsean for taking the time to write such a great post. I really appreciate you saying a lot of things I cannot.
  
 But to comment on a few things...
  
 Yes, you are right, I admit, the user interface in Out Of Your Head is not much to look at. It's clearly functional, but could be greatly improved. It looks like an engineer designed it, which is true. But with limited resources, we feel that devoting our efforts to sound quality outweighs the need for hiring a design team to make the interface look slick. Believe me, I would LOVE to have a slick looking UI.
  
 As I have alluded to before, I feel that the best, most accurate speaker virtualization comes from actual measurements as opposed to computer generated psychoacoustic algorithms. While you have more control and flexibility with a computer synthesized effect, I feel that it's much harder to get a really accurate sound.
 It's like having a digital sound generator that generates the sound of a piano. While a digital piano synthesizer can be flexible and you can change the sound of the piano or the type of piano, etc., it's still not the same as a recording of a real piano. (This analogy is far from perfect, but it's just meant to illustrate that computer generated sound is generally not as accurate as a recording of a real instrument.)
  
 For example, I think that the shape of the pinna make a bigger difference than the size of the head or distance between the ears in an HRTF. But due to the complexities of the acoustics of all the folds and ridges of the pinna, it's hard to simulate that exact sound in a computer algorithm. So while people can compensate for head size and other aspects of an HRTF, the most important part, the details of the pinna, are not addressed. Sure Out Of Your Head also doesn't allow users to compensate for different shaped pinna (unless we do a custom measurement), but Out Of Your Head does use real pinna and real heads for our measurements. This is, of course, my theory on why Out Of Your Head works well. Others may have other opinions.
  
 Regardless, it's fine if people think that the other software available is better and cheaper. That's the case with everything. Some people will think that there are cheaper, better headphones, amps, cars, food, etc. But all we ask is for people to just try Out Of Your Head for themselves.


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## phoenixdogfan

Comes a point where we are just beating a dead horse here.  SetireoN obviously has a different expectation than EdwardSean or myself in what he's looking for in a speaker emulation software.  That's his prerogative, as is his right to voice his opinion in this space.


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## arnaud

I believe Darin is spot on in regards to limitation of HRTF models. I thought that was clear to start with for anyone considering OOYH or the realiser for that matter.

It's still questionable personally if I want the footprint of the room or imperfect speaker system in the room (seems like the only thing I can tolerate is the PRIR I got myself at AIX studios which are as close as to pure HRTFs I can get atm). But there's absolutely no question I need to use own head data so, assuming there are other cheaper convolution software out there, they'd need to handle 16 channels of data (and 7 seconds long fir filters at 48kHz for each channel).

Btw, Darin, are you using the impulse responses from the realiser as is or truncating / resampling them?

Arnaud


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## thecrow

Using a mac and audirvana how can i use an eq plug in feeing into ooyh?

I tried with my focusrite eq plug in with audirvana but after activating ooyh audirvana would not play anything. 

In fact after disabling the eq audirvana did play with ooyh until there was a continuous shreiking kind of noise. I uninstalled and reinstalled ooyh but wondering how i get an eq involved here

Thanks


----------



## darinf

thecrow said:


> Using a mac and audirvana how can i use an eq plug in feeing into ooyh?
> 
> I tried with my focusrite eq plug in with audirvana but after activating ooyh audirvana would not play anything.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @thecrow ,
  
 The best way to apply EQ with Audirvana is to use an AU (AudioUnit plug-in) that does EQ. This way you are not trying to run the audio through two external processors.
  
 But if you do try to use Out Of Your Head and another audio processing package, then the signal path should be this way:
  
 Media player --> (48KHz/24 or 32bit) --> EQ or other processing software --> OOYH (16CH) Virtual Sound card (Out Of Your Head software) --> DAC --> amp --> headphones
  
 But depending on how your audio processing software works, it may or may not be compatible with the Out Of Your Head virtual sound card driver.
  
 Please let me know what EQ software you are trying to use and if there's a trial, I can test it here to see if I can get it to work with Out Of Your Head.
  
 Thanks, -Darin


----------



## thecrow

darinf said:


> Hi @thecrow
> ,
> 
> The best way to apply EQ with Audirvana is to use an AU (AudioUnit plug-in) that does EQ. This way you are not trying to run the audio through two external processors.
> ...


Its either going to be sonarworks or the focusrite scarlett eq. 

I did just find this to try if this sounds correct
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/wgscott/use-au-plugins-free-any-apple-audio-software-393/


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## edwardsean

thecrow said:


> Its either going to be sonarworks or the focusrite scarlett eq.
> 
> I did just find this to try if this sounds correct
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/wgscott/use-au-plugins-free-any-apple-audio-software-393/


 

 Hey Crow, 
  
 I'm running Sonarworks with OOYH in Audirvana Plus 2.5. It is a killer chain. 
  
 Just as Darin said. Use Audirvana's internal AU processing in preferences. Don't select real time control as I don't know that it works with Sonarworks. Then set the Audio System to OOYH. Make sure that max upsampling is set to 48khz. In Audio Filters make sure that you use forced upsampling and set it to max sample rate.
  
 The only "trick" involved is that make sure you load a track and start it playing and then start OOYH. 
  
 Works like a charm and sounds unbelievably good. 
  
 All the best.


----------



## thecrow

edwardsean said:


> Hey Crow,
> 
> I'm running Sonarworks with OOYH in Audirvana Plus 2.5. It is a killer chain.
> 
> ...




As well as changing the prefs in audirvana i tried the steps you mentioned. audirvana just wouldnt start. The only thing i might not have done is initially started a song before opening ooyh. 

I'll sus it out. Thanks. 

I did end up having to delete and reinstall ooyh because in trying to later use a+ without ooyh the sound prefs could not go back through my dac in a+. I could through say youtube but a+ just wouldn't happen and i tried all my known options. 

Ps : Sonarworks normally does work in real time in a+


----------



## thecrow

edwardsean
Thanks for your help - solved

With both/either sonarworks at my focusrite eq they need to be switched off the real time setting for A+ to start with ooyh


----------



## edwardsean

Hey Darin, always a pleasure to talk about OOYH. I 


darinf said:


> Thank you @edwardsean for taking the time to write such a great post. I really appreciate you saying a lot of things I cannot.
> 
> But to comment on a few things...
> 
> ...


 

 Hey Darin. Thanks for explaining about the importance of the pinna morphology over head measurements. That's really helpful.
  
 I think Phoenix is right also about different expectations and beating a dead horse. So, I'm writing here not to debate but to further the discussion as I come to understand it better myself. 
  
 As for the different technologies underlying OOYH vs. other solutions, as you know, I fully agree that convolution is the way. I think of it in terms of pro-audio. Simplistically, if I want an artificial reverb "effect," I'll reach for an algorithmic plug, since it's artificially generated. If i want an accurately real space, I'll go to convolution, since it captured a real room.
  
 It's just that working with Waves NX, I started thinking more about why OOYH was satisfying in a way that nothing else is. As I mentioned, Waves has deep R&D pockets. Yet, even if I set aside the questions of whether I would trust it to mix, or how real/accurate it sounds, it just wasn't enjoyable for audiophile listening.
  
 Since SetrioN brought up Focusrite VRM I thought about it, even though I passed it over years ago and I think it's now discontinued. VRM also uses convolution, and I thought would that make it any better than NX, Isone, Redline, CanOpener, Ircam HEar, etc.? I thought, maybe, I'd have to hear it, but I don't think so. I know what these plugs are going for and, with the exception of Isone, the target is not audiophile listening. With VRM you may have convolution but it's exclusively emulating studio monitors. Even if they got it right, the speakers they modeled aren't what I would want for enjoyment. They aren't even necessarily the best monitors just ones that are popular, known entities to audio producers. On the other hand, there is Isone (and Dolby, SRS, etc.) that is intended as well for audio consumers, but the algorithmic process sounds artificial.
  
 So, I concluded that both the approach and the aim are important, and what makes OOYH unique. Everyone hears and values differently, this is just from my long dogged personal pursuit to get speakers from headphones. I hope you're not offended Darin, but as much as i love OOYH, I keep trying to surpass it. I just never do.


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## darinf

Thanks again for your comment @edwardsean . I agree with your comments.
  
 FYI, I just uploaded a slightly updated version of the *Windows *Out Of Your Head. (The mac version is unchanged.)
  
 The only change is the we fixed some compatibility problems with some DACs. The main problem was a bug on our end with the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi DACs.
 For those of you with Creative Sound Blaster products, Out Of Your Head should now work with those devices.
  
 Sorry about the problems. It's also entirely possible that if any other DACs were not working properly, they should work now with the latest version.
 Just download the Windows trial version from our website and install over your existing version.


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## stuck limo

Hi everyone, I downloaded the demo and I cannot get anything to work on it. It recognizes that I'm using the Geek Out V2....then what? I try to play Spotify and I get no sound. I'm really unclear on how to play anything or test the software as there is literally no indication on how to use the software.
  
 I have the test speaker demo selected, the Geek Out V2 DAC selected....and that's literally all I know or can see, except for the EQ settings on the bottom and the checkmark boxes.


----------



## darinf

stuck limo said:


> Hi everyone, I downloaded the demo and I cannot get anything to work on it. It recognizes that I'm using the Geek Out V2....then what? I try to play Spotify and I get no sound. I'm really unclear on how to play anything or test the software as there is literally no indication on how to use the software.
> 
> I have the test speaker demo selected, the Geek Out V2 DAC selected....and that's literally all I know or can see, except for the EQ settings on the bottom and the checkmark boxes.


 
I can respond more completely when I get back to the office later tonight. 

Are you on a Mac or Windows? 

In the meantime, the signal path is:
Media player - - > Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device - - > DAC /amp

So you want to make sure your default audio device is set to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device. Then select the Geek Out in the right column of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. 

There is also a user's manual in the Out Of Your Head install directory in Windows, or in the. Dmg file you downloaded for Mac. 

-Darin


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## mhpsd

Has anyone had experiences, good or bad, using OOYH/Jriver on a tablet running into a DAC?  I was looking at the Surface line.  I have an old atom based netbook, but it just chokes on Jriver, so adding OOYH isn't an option. 
 TIA,
 Mark


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## phoenixdogfan

I had a similar experience to yours.  I picked up a Dell inspiron for about $100 and was running OOYH on it initially. It was just fine for 2 channel sound, but when I tried to use it for 5-7 channel material (Netflix and my film library)  I had  horrendous latency issues.  Since then, Darrin hasissued a low latency version of OOYH and I obtained an  i7 quad core HP Envy, and now I can run 7 channel movies with no latency issues. 
  
 Darrin and I had this discussion earlier in this thread and he indicated it was possible to get by with an i5 or perhaps even an i3.  BTW,  I'm also interested in running OOYH on a Surface Pro (love that form factor!).   Please keep us all posted on how well its working especially with Netflix and 7 channel material.


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## darinf

mhpsd said:


> Has anyone had experiences, good or bad, using OOYH/Jriver on a tablet running into a DAC?  I was looking at the Surface line.  I have an old atom based netbook, but it just chokes on Jriver, so adding OOYH isn't an option.
> TIA,
> Mark


 
 Hi @mhpsd ,
  
 First, even with a tablet running Windows, most of them have an Atom or similar processor and run 32-bit Windows. Those types of tablets will not work with Out Of Your Head. (As you have found, JRiver often doesn't run well either.)
  
 However, there are a few tablets or laptops that can be configured for "tablet mode" that will work with Out Of Your Head.
  
 The Surface Pro line (not the Surface or Surface RT), works with Out Of Your Head. 
  
 I have two Surface tablets. One is a 1st generation i5 and the other is a Surface Pro 3 i5. I would not recommend the first generation Surface Pro. While it does work, it's right at the edge of the computer's limits when playing a 1080p movie with 7.1 audio and Out Of Your Head.
  
 The Surface Pro 3 does much better and works well.
  
 I don't know how the Surface Pro 2 compares. But since the Surface Pro 1st gen works, I suppose the Surface Pro 2 should work too. However you may still find that the sound may get interrupted when you are doing other things on the computer at the same time that audio or video is playing through Out Of Your Head. Things like web browsing or even using menus, etc. can cause glitches in the sound.
  
 For just audio, and no video. I would imagine the Surface Pro 2 should be fine, especially if it's just two channel audio.
  
 Another thing to look at that might be available cheaper would be a "2-in-1" type laptop that can be folded back to operate in "tablet" mode. I understand that those types of laptops can be thicker and heavier than the Surface Pro's, but I think you can get a higher performance computer for the same money. Having more than one USB port can also be helpful if you are using a USB DAC. Otherwise, on the Surface Pro you have to use a hub to use more than one USB device.


----------



## krismusic

darinf said:


> Thanks for posting. All I can say is "the best laid plans..." Way back when, I thought the iOS version was not far away, but we decided to shift our focus to a low latency version. Hence the iOS version was pushed back. I cannot even speculate on the availability of the iOS version at this point. We are working on it, but I just don't know how long it's going to take to get past a lot of technical hurdles for mobile devices.
> 
> The other issue with mobile devices is that there is really no multi-channel content available. It will be fine for two channel content, but none of the content providers provide 5.1 or 7.1 content on mobile devices. In theory you could provide your own content by ripping DVD's or Blu-Ray's to your mobile device, but even then, there aren't many, if any media player apps that support multi-channel audio. (Do you know of any? I would love to find some.)
> 
> We'll keep you posted when the iOS version is coming. Keep an eye on our website or sign up for our newsletter. I won't be able to announce it here.



Sorry if this is necroposting. I would be very happy with even a two channel version that runs on my iPhone.


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## thekorsen

This has probably been answered a million times, but I'm new to how digital 7.1 audio works. When I try using this program alone, it only shows L and R channels being used, and I'm assuming that's due to the input being stereo and inherently only having 2 channels. I'm guessing that means I'd need another program to take a stereo source -> convert it to 7.1 and be able to appear as a output device -> select that device as the input for OOYH -> use OOYH as the listening device. Or I'm completely confused about how all this works. If that is how it works, any good free 7.1 program recommendations? Most of my music is stored on spotify, so I'd need a way to play from that and it seems like 7.1 output isn't a option.
  
 The prospect of this has me excited though, if it could be developed even further into something like a Smyth Realizer that uses your own PC for head tracking & head + speaker measurement based processing, then use your own dac/amp for playback, I'd easily drop twice the asking price on this software!


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> This has probably been answered a million times, but I'm new to how digital 7.1 audio works. When I try using this program alone, it only shows L and R channels being used, and I'm assuming that's due to the input being stereo and inherently only having 2 channels. I'm guessing that means I'd need another program to take a stereo source -> convert it to 7.1 and be able to appear as a output device -> select that device as the input for OOYH -> use OOYH as the listening device. Or I'm completely confused about how all this works. If that is how it works, any good free 7.1 program recommendations? Most of my music is stored on spotify, so I'd need a way to play from that and it seems like 7.1 output isn't a option.
> 
> The prospect of this has me excited though, if it could be developed even further into something like a Smyth Realizer that uses your own PC for head tracking & head + speaker measurement based processing, then use your own dac/amp for playback, I'd easily drop twice the asking price on this software!


 
 Hi @thekorsen ,
 Out Of Your Head does not do any channel up-conversion (or down-conversion for that matter). It plays back the same number of channels as the source material. If you play 2 channel audio, then you hear the audio from the Out Of Your Head front Left and Right speakers. If you have a 7.1 source, you will hear audio from all 8 virtual speakers.
  
 Generally, the easiest sources for more than 2 channel audio is from DVD's or Blu-Ray's. You can use a built-in optical drive on your computer, or buy a cheap USB optical drive.
  
 However, some software like JRiver has built-in DSP to take 2 channel files and up-convert them to 5.1 or 7.1. The results are dependent on the source material, but you can try enabling that functionality in the DSP audio settings of JRiver. There are other plug-ins for FooBar 2000 that can also do the channel up-conversion.
  
 Regardless, the signal path for 2 up to 8 channel audio is:
  
 Media player app --> Out Of Your Head Virtual sound card --> Out Of Your Head app --> DAC (USB or built-in) --> amp --> headphones
  
 Regarding the functionality of Out Of Your Head, since we don't have any hardware, making your own measurements is only possible if we do custom measurements for you either in Southern California or have us fly out to you. Yes, this is not ideal, but it's possible. Another option is to use a Smyth Realiser to do your own measurements. Then you can e-mail us the measurement files and we can convert them for use in Out Of Your Head. We will also be supporting the new Realiser A16 measurement files once it's available.
  
 For head tracking, we don't have a software solution yet. Honestly we have found that many people don't use the head tracking once they get used to the sound of their Realiser or Out Of Your Head. Head tracking can be helpful initially, but once your brain is acclimated to the virtual speakers, the head tracking is not required.
  
 Thanks for trying Out Of Your Head,
  
 -Darin


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## thekorsen

darinf said:


> Spoiler: Snip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for responding so quickly!
  
 Ah, that makes sense. Hum, so if I want to use spotify I'd need to add a 2 to 8 chanel upconverter between the media player (as spotify) and the OOYH virtual soundcard in the audio chain...but that might do more harm than good since it's not how the track was intended to be listened to.
  
 Oh wow, so head measurement based calculations are already part of it? That's awesome! So if I did get properly done measurements and got them converted by you for use in OOYH it would produce very similar results to what the Realiser would do, just without head tracking (assuming the same speaker measurement is used on both systems)? Or does the Realiser perform a different set of calculations that may produce noticeably different effects?
  
 I can also see the head tracking becoming a gimick after a while like you mentioned. It still seems like a fun illusion and probably helpful for understanding the illusion at first, but maybe more trouble than it's worth. And unnecessary in VR applications where audio automatically changes with head movement...and oh man VR with this kind of audio processing?... Drooling.
  
 On a note relevant to using the software itself, I'm experiencing an issue with loud poping. While using the gaming effect it doesn't seem to come up, but in every other effect, some worse than others (home theater seems to be the worst offender) it seems to consistently happen on low frequencies (percussion mainly). The poping is a lot louder than the rest of the sound and is ear piercing, making using any effect but the gamer one a painful experience. I'm curious if I have something configured wrong. The dac I'm using is a Fiio e18 and I could post my computer specs of needed.


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## darinf

thekorsen said:


> Thanks for responding so quickly!
> 
> Ah, that makes sense. Hum, so if I want to use spotify I'd need to add a 2 to 8 chanel upconverter between the media player (as spotify) and the OOYH virtual soundcard in the audio chain...but that might do more harm than good since it's not how the track was intended to be listened to.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just to be clear, you do not need to have all content be 5.1 or 7.1. Out Of Your Head works really well on 2 channel content. Many Out Of Your Head customers use it only for 2 channel content. Just getting two channel music to have the same sound-stage as listening to speakers is a huge difference. that doesn't help and we can figure out 
  
 Yes, if we do measurements or you have measurements done with a Realiser, then the sound of the custom preset in Out Of Your Head will be very similar to the sound from a Realiser. Most people can't tell the difference.
  
 For the popping issue, I think you might be experiencing clipping. The best way to eliminate the clipping is to lower the output volume from your media player app. The media player app has to be set so that it adjusts the output volume internally. If it uses the Windows mixer to adjust volume, then that will not work since Out Of Your Head bypasses the Windows mixer.
  
 If your app does not have an internal volume adjustment, then you can adjust the input levels down in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. Just note that the levels in the Out Of Your Head Control panel are saved separately for each speaker preset. But this way you can adjust the presets that are clipping more separately from the others. 
  
 But contact us directly via the contact form on our website if the adjustments don't help. We can figure out what's going on.
  
 -Darin


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## thekorsen

> Spoiler: Snip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, I know just using them in 2 channel works but I just wasn't sure if up converting stereo to 7.1 was a worthwhile endeavor or a common practice. Again, never played with speakers outside of a pair of altec lansing speakers I got when I was in middle school. The glory days when I was blissfully ignorant of amazing audio, when my wallet could rest easy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'll definitely have to find a place to get my measurements on the east coast for this. Hopefully the next NY canjam will have a place to do it.
  
 That volume fix did the trick, no more ear piercing poping! Thanks for the help on that one and thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions!


----------



## thecrow

darinf thanks for the info re the popping/clipping. 
I had the same question last night. I'll try that out too

As feedback i really appreciate the trial offer as it is, as opposed to just a 14 day one. 

Its great having it in play (for those who havent bought it yet) to try again as you buy new gear to use


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## edwardsean

thekorsen said:


> Yeah, I know just using them in 2 channel works but I just wasn't sure if up converting stereo to 7.1 was a worthwhile endeavor or a common practice. Again, never played with speakers outside of a pair of altec lansing speakers I got when I was in middle school. The glory days when I was blissfully ignorant of amazing audio, when my wallet could rest easy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hey. I regularly use OOYH with 2 channel tracks and I'm deeply impressed with it as an audiophile level solution for stereo material. However, it is also truly brilliant with 5.1/7.1 sources for movies. I also have a clutch of music recordings that were mastered to 5.1. Some of it was done well and some of it was not converted as successfully. Sting, "Live in Berlin" is really well done. 
  
 Having said that, like yourself, I really would like to upmix 2-channel to 5.1/7.1 to take full advantage of OOYH. I've been working on it for a while and so far have not found a chain I like. The JRiver upmixing feature is really artificial sounding, though you might want to give it a shot. I've trying out professional upmixing plugins like Auro, Penteo, and Illusonic. For me the bottleneck has been finding the right host software. I need something that can handle multichannel audio and stream Tidal. So far I don't know of anyone that's successfully assembled a good upmixing chain. 
  
 If anyone has please do post it here. That would be great!


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## phoenixdogfan

I am not sure if everyone knows this, but the Netflix desktop app outputs most of its program material in Dolby True HD 5.1 channels, likewise Amazon Prime. Just use an HDMI cable to send the video output to your HD monitor, and set the Windows setting for sound to OOYH as your default sound.  Netflix and Amazon will then send the 5.1 channel audio program to OOYH with near zero latency, and OOYH will output directly to your DAC/Amp and then to your phones in glorious multi channel sound.  With good phones it sounds like a really good home theatre rig.  (love those spaceship flyovers!) No need to even use JRiver.


----------



## thekorsen

Spent the day using the 7.1 surround in OverWatch...oh my, I felt really bad for anyone who tried to sneak up behind me or get the drop on me by falling off a ledge above. Instant pinpoint location...on a TH-X00!?!? Absurd, these headphones always had a fog that made locating anything a blur, but now they seems more accurate than my alpha primes were when I had them. If that's the effect this has on these, I'd shutter to think how it will affect the HD800s I'll be getting next week. Expectations blown away.
  
 I also had the chance to listen to dark side of the moon on Dolby digital 4.1, the soundstage and instrument separation was insane on certain configurations. Toggling the bypass on and off made one thing abundantly clear; this is truly the next step in headphone audio. The flavor on a lot of the effects just seemed a little off though, made it hard to believe the price tag on some of those models and how they held up compared to lesser priced siblings...but its unfair to judge on my measly current audio chain. 
  
 I think its fair to say I'll be buying the full version...just need to patch up the hole those HD800s left in my wallet first.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

A lot of that may depends on how close each of the presets are to your individual HRTF.  Everyone hears differently based on the shape of their heads, the shape of their pinnae, the topography of their ear canals, how sound reflects off their torso, et al ad nauseam.  All in all it means everyone hears each of those presets differently. As a result. some of the presets might not work for one person, but might sound convincing to someone else. I personally find that some of the very expensive speakers don;t work for me. On the other hand, the Magico Q7 presets are a home run for me.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

With the advent of the HD 800S, any number of online retail outlets are offering the original HD 800 at steep discounts. I picked up my pair at Amazon for $1k even.  I've since seen them as low as $850 brand new.
  
 And if you do the  SD mod which costs around $25 and takes around 5 minutes, you will pretty much have what the "S" version gives you for $800 less.


----------



## mhpsd

> Please keep us all posted on how well its working especially with Netflix and 7 channel material.


 

 My wallet took a hit and I am awaiting an i7 Surface 3.  I'll check it out with Netflix.  What material do you use for 7.1?
 Mark


----------



## phoenixdogfan

MKV blue ray and DVD rips.


----------



## edwardsean

phoenixdogfan said:


> MKV blue ray and DVD rips.


 

 Yup! Works like a dream.


----------



## mhpsd

edwardsean said:


> Yup! Works like a dream.


 
  
  


phoenixdogfan said:


> MKV blue ray and DVD rips.


 


 Don't want to derail this thread, but I tried using makemkv and ended up with a folder that I couldn't make work.  Can anyone point me to a thread/instruction on how to make this work?  I'd love to check out OOYH with 7.1 source material.
 Thanks


----------



## phoenixdogfan

https://youtu.be/8jUh7hbe4Yc

Try that.


----------



## thekorsen

Been playing more with the presets trying to find what jives best with me. So far my favorites for stereo listening are the Focal Scalia and Revel Ultimas, and I switch to the Cello for large volume sound stage. The room reverb you get when switching off the music is also one my new favorite things, like the cherry on top of the whole effect to make it so convincing!


----------



## thekorsen

I found a great gem for messing with stereo to 7.1 that'll always run in the background for windows! Get equalizer APO installed with the peace extension. Open it with the full interface when given the option, and select the desired configuration (7.1 setup recommended for convenience.) Next click the *Commands button and click the "upmixing 2 channels to 8" option in the menu on the upper right, then click save. Now click the *Effects button and turn on upmix with 7.1 switched as the spacial setup. I'd also recommend turning the spatial balance feature on, try setting it at somewhere between 0.6-1 for the front setting and it should help give a better front image and reduce the image confusion this configuration tends to induce. This also gives the freedom to individually EQ each channel (or channel pairs in the convenient 7.1 setup option), which might allow one to play with EQ to make certain instruments more or less present in different areas to force image separation into the mix.
  
 One bug I'm getting with this setup however is a buzzing that goes in and out at varying volumes. It tends to get more loud and last longer over time, but closing and re-opening OOYH seems to remedy this. There are also some occasional audio artifacts (poping, skiping) and they are usually just milliseconds in duration but still distracting. Not sure what's causing these issues and they can be very annoying, detracting from an otherwise convenient solution to this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 *edit* Issues seem to be a result of switching effects in OOYH too quickly / too often. Restarting OOYH seems to resolve them when they do occur.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

The popping is probably digital clipping.  Lower the gain on whatever is feeding OOYH to fix it.


----------



## thekorsen

phoenixdogfan said:


> The popping is probably digital clipping.  Lower the gain on whatever is feeding OOYH to fix it.


 
 I had that issue before, needed to lower my source to it to fix it originally, and those pops were originally much louder than the sound and these are not. These pops persisted and had loudness which correlated with the volume no matter which part of the audio chain I lowered the volume of. The "poping" might just be a really short duration skip/audio artifact too, maybe having to do with the fact that two programs are processing audio at the same time, making lag in the system slow both down for a blip and possibly not giving both programs enough buffer time to fix the now compounded error. I don't know much about this though, taking a shot in the dark.


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> I had that issue before, needed to lower my source to it to fix it originally, and those pops were originally much louder than the sound and these are not. These pops persisted and had loudness which correlated with the volume no matter which part of the audio chain I lowered the volume of. The "poping" might just be a really short duration skip/audio artifact too, maybe having to do with the fact that two programs are processing audio at the same time, making lag in the system slow both down for a blip and possibly not giving both programs enough buffer time to fix the now compounded error. I don't know much about this though, taking a shot in the dark.


 
 Hi @thekorsen ,
  
 Thanks for the tip about Equalizer APO. I remember trying it at some point, but I can't remember if I had any problems getting it to work with Out Of Your Head. But I am glad you have it working.
  
 Your suspicion about why you are getting some audio artifacts may be due to both processes processing the audio signal. Plus the fact that the processes are running in real-time with fairly low latency may have some problems even on a fast computer. With the current low latency engine, even fast CPU's can sometimes have audio glitches when other processes are running at the same time. Sometimes even web browsing or any mildly CPU intensive process can affect the audio processing in Out Of Your Head. So I would not be surprised if Equalizer APO can cause audio glitches with Out Of Your Head. We are doing a fairly significant amount of DSP very quickly and I assume so is Equalizer APO.
  
 I will give it a try on my test systems and see if I can get it working smoothly.
  
 One thing to check in general for anyone running Out Of Your Head on Windows is to change your Power Options to the "High Performance" setting, or in the advanced settings, make sure your *Minimum CPU State* is set to 100%. For some reason, sometimes Windows will not "see" that Out Of Your Head needs a lot of CPU and will leave the CPU in a low power state. That can cause all kinds of glitches and distorted sound especially on laptops.
  
 Anyway, I'll let you know if I have any luck with Equalizer APO.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

darinf said:


> Hi @thekorsen ,
> 
> Thanks for the tip about Equalizer APO. I remember trying it at some point, but I can't remember if I had any problems getting it to work with Out Of Your Head. But I am glad you have it working.
> 
> ...


 
 OK, I was able to get Equalizer APO working on my Windows 10, desktop system: i7-6700 3.4GHz and 32GB RAM.
  
 This computer is pretty fast and it's a desktop, so it seems to have plenty of CPU power to playback 2 channel audio with both Equalizer APO and Out Of Your Head active. I didn't hear any problems with the audio even when up-converting two channels to 7.1 channels.
  
 However, for whatever reason, I noticed that in "Effect", once I set "Spatial Setup" to 7.1 and then "Upmix" to ON, the output level from Equalizer APO jumped way up and caused some seriously loud clipping/digital distortion. So be careful! 
  

  
 To fix the distortion, I adjusted the "Pre-amplifying" slider on the top of the main Peace GUI down to -14 or lower. You have to play with that until you stop hearing any distortion especially on loud passages.
  

  
 The clipping/distortion does not sound like the clipping I get when the output from my media player is set too high. The distortion from Equalizer APO is more like a buzzing sound.
  
 I am not sure if that's the same problem that @thekorsen was getting, but just making sure people are aware of this.
  
 However once I adjusted the "Pre Amplifying" volume down, Equalizer APO worked really well with Out Of Your Head. If it works on your computer without problems, I think it's a great solution for EQ-ing your audio when using Out Of Your Head. 
  
 I will try the same thing on a laptop and a slow laptop to see if I have any issues.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

darinf said:


> OK, I was able to get Equalizer APO working on my Windows 10, desktop system: i7-6700 3.4GHz and 32GB RAM.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Click to see the full post
> ...


 
 I just tried an older, cheap laptop:
AMD A6-6310 1.8GHz; 8GB RAM; Windows 10
  
It worked pretty well.
When I enabled the 7.1 Upmix, I had to turn down the "Pre Amplifying" to -18 or more to avoid any clipping.
  
But I was surprised at how well it worked and was generally glitch free.
  
However, unlike my main desktop, this computer definitely had glitches and stuttering when I did anything else on the computer like opening windows, opening Chrome, browsing web pages, etc. It wasn't hard to cause some glitches in the audio.
I did notice that adjusting the settings in the Peace GUI didn't seem to cause any glitches.
  
Anyway, hopefully some of you can get it working without problems.
  
-Darin


----------



## thekorsen

darinf said:
			
		

> -Lots of good stuff-


 
 Looks like you've been hard at work with this! I've been playing with this more today and found that the buzzing issue I mentioned before has not yet come up again for some reason and the stuttering is not as prevalent. Its working well enough to let me use it and enjoy the music, which is great! Might also be because I have less things open? I can't imagine what I could've had open before which would pull a lot of resources though. Generally I only have a few tabs (under 10) open, maybe 2 of which being youtube videos, and steam in the background. If I'm playing a game I would use it's own 7.1 output and disable the upmixing all together. I'll try to test a few things as the day goes by and see if anything causes it again so I can report it here.
  
 Edit: Also noticing some tracks respond better to this setup than others...but the ones that do can sound spectacular! The Shaman by Nicola Conte off Spotify was pretty stellar when played back like this with the Revel Ultima effect.


----------



## thekorsen

Hi, just wanted to report a bug. After switching effects via pressing the up and down arrow keys every minute or so for a prolonged duration during a listening session, occasionally a popup would come up similar to what pops up after the 2 minute limit on an effect. After I X-ed out of it the audio is paused for a few seconds, then comes back on but is often distorted. This distortion can sometimes be very noticeably (buzzing and loud clipping) or marginal. Restarting will get rid of the noticeable effects, but the clipping issue seems to get additively worse as this pops up more and more and doesn't dissipate until the computer is restarted. For me, this increasing tendency to clip was experienced in lower frequencies even through the volume was not changed from the source or in OOYH. I tested this by setting it just above the point of clipping on a certain song, inducing the error by repeatedly pressing the up and down arrows to switch between effects, then exiting and reloading the program. The volume sliders were the same in OOYH and Peace, but I now had to lower the preamp in Peace another -1db to stop it from cliping.
  
 Another bug from switching effects consistently over time seems to be a slowed time to switch effects. After a while, when a different effect is selected it will stay at bypass mode for a few seconds then switch to it.
  
 I realize switching effects constantly isn't the desired way to use the program, and the bugs it compounds over time may well serve as a way to encourage buying the full program, but I just thought they should be mentioned.
  
 Also, a review of the program on my different headphones is in progress. It will be my first review on headfi so it might take a while, but stay tuned.


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> Hi, just wanted to report a bug. After switching effects via pressing the up and down arrow keys every minute or so for a prolonged duration during a listening session, occasionally a popup would come up similar to what pops up after the 2 minute limit on an effect. After I X-ed out of it the audio is paused for a few seconds, then comes back on but is often distorted. This distortion can sometimes be very noticeably (buzzing and loud clipping) or marginal. Restarting will get rid of the noticeable effects, but the clipping issue seems to get additively worse as this pops up more and more and doesn't dissipate until the computer is restarted. For me, this increasing tendency to clip was experienced in lower frequencies even through the volume was not changed from the source or in OOYH. I tested this by setting it just above the point of clipping on a certain song, inducing the error by repeatedly pressing the up and down arrows to switch between effects, then exiting and reloading the program. The volume sliders were the same in OOYH and Peace, but I now had to lower the preamp in Peace another -1db to stop it from cliping.
> 
> Another bug from switching effects consistently over time seems to be a slowed time to switch effects. After a while, when a different effect is selected it will stay at bypass mode for a few seconds then switch to it.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @thekorsen ,
  
 Thanks for your detailed bug report.
  
 When switching presets quickly, on some systems we have seen that the speaker presets may have errors loading. Everytime you switch presets, there's actually quite a bit going behind the scenes in terms of loading the 8 effect files, dealing with the cache and buffers, and "restarting" the processing engine.
 All of this must be done very quickly while still maintaining the low latency.
  
 On some systems, sometimes after switching presets rapidly, the presets would stop loading and all the presets would sound the same. Other times, the engine would get into a state where the processed sound was distorted and you would have to quit Out Of Your Head and relaunch it.
  
 We have worked on this kind of bug and have made improvements, but it's not perfect, as you have found.
  
 We will take a look at your bug report and see if we can reproduce the error.
  
 But, in general we recommend not switching presets faster than once every 5 seconds or so. 
  
 -Darin


----------



## musiclover2015

thekorsen said:


> I found a great gem for messing with stereo to 7.1 that'll always run in the background for windows! Get equalizer APO installed with the peace extension. Open it with the full interface when given the option, and select the desired configuration (7.1 setup recommended for convenience.) Next click the *Commands button and click the "upmixing 2 channels to 8" option in the menu on the upper right, then click save. Now click the *Effects button and turn on upmix with 7.1 switched as the spacial setup. I'd also recommend turning the spatial balance feature on, try setting it at somewhere between 0.6-1 for the front setting and it should help give a better front image and reduce the image confusion this configuration tends to induce. This also gives the freedom to individually EQ each channel (or channel pairs in the convenient 7.1 setup option), which might allow one to play with EQ to make certain instruments more or less present in different areas to force image separation into the mix.
> 
> One bug I'm getting with this setup however is a buzzing that goes in and out at varying volumes. It tends to get more loud and last longer over time, but closing and re-opening OOYH seems to remedy this. There are also some occasional audio artifacts (poping, skiping) and they are usually just milliseconds in duration but still distracting. Not sure what's causing these issues and they can be very annoying, detracting from an otherwise convenient solution to this.


 
 Wow, that's a good find. 
  
 I followed the config steps, just to confirm, all this while the my EQs in the Peace GUI are flat, will adjusting those make a difference, because right now they seem to be inactive.


----------



## thekorsen

musiclover2015 said:


> Wow, that's a good find.
> 
> I followed the config steps, just to confirm, all this while the my EQs in the Peace GUI are flat, will adjusting those make a difference, because right now they seem to be inactive.


 
 The EQ sliders shown will affect the selected speaker(s). To select which you'd like to EQ, there should be a white box on the right with selectable speakers. It defaults to *All I believe, and with that selected the changes made to the EQ via the sliders should apply to all the digital speakers in OOYH. To better see a difference that an EQ can make, I'd recommend making a flat preset and a EQed preset you can switch between via the white box on the lower left corner. Just click save once you made a EQ and save it, and it should show up in that box like the rest (try starting it with a number so it shows up at the top of the list since they are listed alphabetically)


----------



## musiclover2015

thekorsen said:


> The EQ sliders shown will affect the selected speaker(s). To select which you'd like to EQ, there should be a white box on the right with selectable speakers. It defaults to *All I believe, and with that selected the changes made to the EQ via the sliders should apply to all the digital speakers in OOYH. To better see a difference that an EQ can make, I'd recommend making a flat preset and a EQed preset you can switch between via the white box on the lower left corner. Just click save once you made a EQ and save it, and it should show up in that box like the rest (try starting it with a number so it shows up at the top of the list since they are listed alphabetically)


 
 wait, what !! I need to play those with OOYH for 7.1 effect, I thought it was an alternative to OOYH.


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> The EQ sliders shown will affect the selected speaker(s). To select which you'd like to EQ, there should be a white box on the right with selectable speakers. It defaults to *All I believe, and with that selected the changes made to the EQ via the sliders should apply to all the digital speakers in OOYH. To better see a difference that an EQ can make, I'd recommend making a flat preset and a EQed preset you can switch between via the white box on the lower left corner. Just click save once you made a EQ and save it, and it should show up in that box like the rest (try starting it with a number so it shows up at the top of the list since they are listed alphabetically)


 
 Just to clarify, you do need to make sure the box that @thekorsen mentioned. But that drop down box allows you to select which Windows audio output device you want too apply the EQ to. It does not have to do with the individual Out Of Your Head Speaker presets. If you want to apply the EQ to just Out Of Your Head, then select the first entry called "Speakers, Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device". (The 2nd one is the Out Of Your Head 16bit driver for ROON, so don't select that one unless you are using Roon.)
  
 Otherwise, I have found that the "Any Device" selection should work. I don't think the EQ will get applied twice (once for the Out Of Your Head device and once again when Out Of Your Head outputs to your DAC.) I am not 100% sure though.


----------



## darinf

musiclover2015 said:


> wait, what !! I need to play those with OOYH for 7.1 effect, I thought it was an alternative to OOYH.


 
 Sorry, it's not a free alternative to Out Of Your Head! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It can be used as an EQ and channel upconverter for use with Out Of Your Head since Out Of Your Head has neither of those functions.


----------



## thekorsen

For those that are interested, there was a cool article over at innerfidelity on spacial audio processing. Sounds like the last paper mentioned in the article focuses on the same kind of processing OOYH uses, and how to potentially artificially increase the processes's perceived fidelity without overly affecting processing time. Gets you thinking how long it's going to be until this kind of technology trickles down to the layman with so many big audio companies directing their attention at the tech to refine and optimize it thanks to the VR and AR boom.


----------



## krismusic

thekorsen said:


> For those that are interested, there was a cool article over at innerfidelity on spacial audio processing. Sounds like the last paper mentioned in the article focuses on the same kind of processing OOYH uses, and how to potentially artificially increase the processes's perceived fidelity without overly affecting processing time. Gets you thinking how long it's going to be until this kind of technology trickles down to the layman with so many big audio companies directing their attention at the tech to refine and optimize it thanks to the VR and AR boom.



The future IMHO. Forget listening for bat squeak differences between DAC's or amps. Personally I am not interested in VR but the potential for this technology is jaw dropping. i.e. The Smyth Realiser.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

​It amazes me how much time and effort is devoted to analyzing minute  sonic differences which can not be heard well enough  to differentiate components in blind A-B matched levels testing let alone make  value judgements on those components.
  
 If anyone thinks they can "hear" the difference between two amps one of which has a THD+N of 96db and the other of which has a THD+N of 115db, they should go to a site which plays the identical track at the identical volume level at those two noise levels and invites the listener to pick out which is which in a blind testing.  I guarantee the test results will open up your ears, to say nothing of your mind.
  
 Meanwhile crucial things like poorly damped "first reflections"  and bass standing waves go ignored in speaker based listening.  Any aspiring audiophile would do much better by investing in room treatment including LEDE room treatment like Owens-Corning SV370 room tunes on the wall behind the speakers, bass traps in the corners, and more room tunes at the "first reflection" point on the side walls. Add a quality DSP based room and speaker correction system,  and you're a very long way toward killer sound even with modest electronics.
  
 And on headphones,  DSP based EQ and speaker simulation will take a great headphone and give a give world class sound even with relatively modest electronics and cables.


----------



## Takeanidea

phoenixdogfan said:


> ​It amazes me how much time and effort is devoted to analyzing minute  sonic differences which can not be heard well enough  to differentiate components in blind A-B matched levels testing let alone make  value judgements on those components.
> 
> on headphones,  DSP based EQ and speaker simulation will take a great headphone and give a give world class sound even with relatively modest electronics and cables.


 
 This is what headfi is all about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Blind listening tests will always be a subject of contention.
  
 Your 2nd comment , regarding speaker simulation especially, I use OOYH but ,being that my ears are unique to me , I do not find OOYH to be the final solution in headphone listening. My ears do not perceive this software as being like listening to world class loudspeakers. The sound is compressed and much detail is lost when comparing to the actual experience of sitting down in a living room and listening to real speakers.
 I find OOYH useful for movies where the 7.1 works really well and makes the dialogue far better balanced and therefore easier to follow. I also find the software less fatiguing to listen to music with . Your statement regarding world class sound may work for you but it doesn't apply to me which is a real shame


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Sounds like you need a custom measurement.


----------



## Takeanidea

That I would like!


----------



## fatboycarney

Hi all and Darin

I have just discovered this extremely interesting app and have played around a bit with it. I am still a bit puzzled on the best recommended setup

I am looking for the best movie experience I can get. I guess the part I dont really grasp is how the codecs are converted. Most of my movies have DTS-HD MA 5.1/7.1, is there a way to utilize this stream in OOYH? Would there even be an advantage? 

I must really be missing something as I couldnt find much about this in the thread. lol 

Darin I know you recommend one specific USB DAC but does that take full advantage of movies in 7.1? 

Would it be better to use a higher end Sound card that supports Dolby Digital and DTS. I currently use the HDMI output from the motherboard into a receiver for my 7.1 setup but I was unable to get OOYH to make any impact to HDMI audio (which to me makes sense as its passing the compressed file to the receiver)

I was able to get setup via Plex and output using a Fiio E18K via USB to my headphones and watch via the HDMI video output. Is this the optimal config setup? 

Sorry if these questions dont make sense but I am not putting the whole thing together just yet. 

The software is fantastic that I can say. After using it in the Trial software I could never watch movies without this type of processing. I just want to make sure I understand how to get the best performance and fill in the gaps I seem to be missing

Thanks


----------



## darinf

fatboycarney said:


> Hi all and Darin
> 
> I have just discovered this extremely interesting app and have played around a bit with it. I am still a bit puzzled on the best recommended setup
> 
> ...




Hi @fatboycarney, Thanks for posting.

First, Out Of Your Head does not do any audio decoding. It relies on your media player app to do that. But, most media players will decode Dolby and DTS audio including 7.1. For example, JRiver Media Center, or Kodi.TV will decode 7.1 on both Windows and Mac. Also, most Blu-Ray player apps will do it also. Often it's not documented, but you can try the various apps to check.

So, for movies, especially in 7.1, most people use a internal or external Blu-Ray reader to play Blu-Ray movies. Both JRiver and Kodi support optical drives. Alternately you can rip the movies, but that can be tricky to preserve the 7.1 audio.

Regardless, when the media player plays the movie, the audio is decoded and sent to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound card as discrete PCM audio data. Then Out Of Your Head does it's processing to give you the sound of listening to 8 speakers in a room.

We don't officially recommend any particular headphones, DAC, or amp. It' really up to you what you like. Since Out Of Your Head outputs a processed two channel audio signal, you only need a stereo DAC. No special requirements needed.

If you have an AV receiver connected to the HDMI output of your computer, then you can have Out Of Your Head send the processed two channel audio to your receiver via HDMI. However, you have to make sure you disable all surround or headphone processing in your AV receiver. Then you have too use the headphone jack of your receiver to listen. Just remember Out Of Your Head processed audio output is always 2 channel regardless of the source.

So, to use HDMI to your headphones, the signal path would be:
Media Player app (Plex?) --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> HDMI audio output device (listed in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel) --> AV Receiver (all audio processing disabled) --> Headphones
(You don't have to rely on the AV receiver for doing the Dolby/DTS decoding. That's done by Plex before.)

In your 2nd example, yes, you can go from Plex --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> Fiio 18K DAC --> headphones. 

You don't need a higher end sound card unless you want to use it for your headphones instead of the Fiio. Either one will function as a DAC and amp for your headphones.

I hope that clarifies a little. Of course, e-mail us if you have specific questions for setting everything up. Sometimes there are specific settings for getting 7.1 working in the various media player apps. Some of the settings are listed in the Out Of Your Head User's Manual in the Appendix.

Thanks again,
-Darin


----------



## fatboycarney

@darinf 

Thanks so much for the reply. Geez now I totally get it. i have for so long simply done passthrough that I had discounted what these applications can do today. Initially I know passthrough to receiver was the only option but having a look on the Plex support site they now do support the HD codecs. 

Appreciate the detailed answer and once I get all my hardware look for my purchase of your software

Thanks!


----------



## Paradigm

Something has changed with this software. I downloaded the newest version after using whatever previous one I had for the last 8-9 months. The new updated version seems louder, before I had to crank my headphone amp all the way up now I have to turn things down. The problem is it almost feels like someone artificially turned the master volume up the gain higher in the decibels, sort of artificial software +audio boost. The mid range is more piecing now when listening to music and watching movies. I noticed that what ever changes have been made, one issue has been fixed which was the excessive clipping(which was resolved by turning down the input channel causing it) in movies when things got really loud. With this version these issues rarely arise now. Also the audio delay used to be around 450ms when I installed the new version I noticed after playing with Lav decoder that Darin has managed to lower the DSP processing time to around 250ms,before I got the audio to sync correctly in MPC-HC.
  
 For reference My PC is using a Titanium HD and I think I read somewhere Darin mentioning that there was an issue or bug in his software with the DAC creative Labs was using. Could this change be the cause of what I am experiencing now?
  
 Changes I noticed.
 This new version has a 16bit mode I don't ever use it.
 Audio latency has been decreased
 16bit mode add( I assume this was added for gaming, giving way to lower latency)
 New presets added, MartinLogan, JMlabs etc...
  
  
 Anyhow I kind of prefer the older version, I can't quite put my finger on why this one sounds worse to me other than what I already mentioned. I was wondering Darin if you might be able to give me a few pointers on what has happened and maybe some advice on any alternative options I might be able to change to resolve this minor issue. 
  
 Here is an example for 2 channel audio. 24bit 96Hz properly mastered audio track with beautiful dynamic range and smooth highs. I now have to turn down the input channels as shown below for left and right. When the saxophone hits in the track it pierces my ears. Never had this problem with the older OFYH. By the way my headphones are HD650.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Something has changed with this software. I downloaded the newest version after using whatever previous one I had for the last 8-9 months. The new updated version seems louder, before I had to crank my headphone amp all the way up now I have to turn things down. The problem is it almost feels like someone artificially turned the master volume up the gain higher in the decibels, sort of artificial software +audio boost. The mid range is more piecing now when listening to music and watching movies. I noticed that what ever changes have been made, one issue has been fixed which was the excessive clipping(which was resolved by turning down the input channel causing it) in movies when things got really loud. With this version these issues rarely arise now. Also the audio delay used to be around 450ms when I installed the new version I noticed after playing with Lav decoder that Darin has managed to lower the DSP processing time to around 250ms,before I got the audio to sync correctly in MPC-HC.
> 
> For reference My PC is using a Titanium HD and I think I read somewhere Darin mentioning that there was an issue or bug in his software with the DAC creative Labs was using. Could this change be the cause of what I am experiencing now?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Paradigm, 
 Thanks for your post.
  
 It sounds like you were using a pre-low latency engine version of Out Of Your Head.
  
 ON thing that has changed is that we did change the overall volume. But we also changed the "0db" level in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. However, since your previous level settings are saved from one version to the next, there is a bug that if your old version levels were set to the top at 0dB, when you install the new version, the input levels will all be set to +6dB or the top of the slider levels rather than back down at 0dB.
  
 So to reset the levels back down to 0db, you can click on the "Reset" button for each of the speaker presets you use to "reset" all the levels back to 0dB. You have to do that separately for each of the speaker presets. This will essentially overwrite your previous level settings.
  
 Perhaps this could have something to do with the change in the sound you are experiencing. We did completely rewrite the processing engine to be low latency, but the resulting sound should not have changed.
  
 Previously we did have compatibility issues with some Creative devices. However the latest version should fix most of those compatibility issues. However, the problems would result in Out Of Your Head not working at all with the Creative device. If it's working (as yours seems to be), then you are good to go. The problems did not result in any audio degradation.
  
 The 16bit mode is only used with ROON Labs. For ALL other sources, leave 16bit mode off. 16bit mode will only work with Roon.
  
 You should be getting much lower latency than 250ms. On our systems our typical latencies tend to be anywhere from 30ms to 120ms on all presets when streaming, gaming, or playing directly from JRiver, VLC, etc. Generally the latency is low enough that you shouldn't have to adjust the audio sync and you should be able too stream and game unlike before. If you are very sensitive to lip sync, then you may still have to tweak the audio sync.
  
 If you want to downgrade back to the pre-low latency version, please contact us and we can e-mail you instructions for doing so.
  
 Let me know if you have any other questions,
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

Thank you Darin for responding to my inquiry. First off the reason why the latency is much higher in movie mode is because MPC-HC has about 41-60ms latency from all the crazy MADVR imagine enhancement settings I use. With that being said I will try to lower the latency still to see if I get proper audio sync. Usually what I do is I play a movie at half or quarter speed to see when the lips begin to move to match the latency spot on. As of right now it looks good though.
  
 Also Darin you guys must have done something with the engine that reduced the amount of clipping that would take place in movies, there is much less now.
  
 BTW what in the heck is Roon if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Thank you Darin for responding to my inquiry. First off the reason why the latency is much higher in movie mode is because MPC-HC has about 41-60ms latency from all the crazy MADVR imagine enhancement settings I use. With that being said I will try to lower the latency still to see if I get proper audio sync. Usually what I do is I play a movie at half or quarter speed to see when the lips begin to move to match the latency spot on. As of right now it looks good though.
> 
> Also Darin you guys must have done something with the engine that reduced the amount of clipping that would take place in movies, there is much less now.
> 
> BTW what in the heck is Roon if you don't mind me asking?


 
 I see about the additional latency of MPC-HC. 
 For latency testing, I use the files downloaded from here: http://editorsean.com/articles/audio-video-sync-alignment-latency-test/
  
 For clipping, yes, we tried to reach a compromise between overall gain and clipping in the processing engine. But since everyone's systems are so different, especially on Windows, we get some people complaining that the levels are too high and they get clipping. Then we get others who complain that the levels are too low and they need to turn up their amps too high.
  
 Roon is a media player app that is often used in conjunction with Tidal: http://roonlabs.com
  
 -Darin


----------



## bluzeboy

I tried this using with  foobar ,is this compatable,if so could I have detail instructions on how to set it up.
 thanks


----------



## darinf

bluzeboy said:


> I tried this using with  foobar ,is this compatable,if so could I have detail instructions on how to set it up.
> thanks


 
 Hi @bluzeboy ,
 Yes, Out Of Your Head is compatible with Foobar2000.
  
 The audio signal path is:
  
 Foobar2000 --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> DAC --> amp
  
 So in Foobar2000 under "File\Prefrences\Playback\Output", set the "Device" to "DSrimary Sound Driver".
  
 This way, when you launch Out Of Your Head, the Windows Default Playback Device is automatically set to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device and therefore FooBar will output to the Windows Default Playback Device.
  
 Then in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, make sure your actual output device (USB DAC or built-in audio, etc.) is selected in the right column.
  
 Once that's set, when you play audio in FooBar2000, you should see the audio levels moving in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel and hear audio in your headphones.
  
 If you still have problems getting Out Of Your Head working with FooBar 2000, please contact us directly via our website.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

Sure thing. Go into foobar and select preferences-> Playback -> Outtut.  as you can see in the picture below you are given a multitude of options. There you will see Out of Your Head as an option for playback output method. Depending on your setup you can chouse to you the Direct Sound OFYH or WASAPI OUTOYH.
  
 Here is an example of mine:
  

  
 edit: NVM Darin already responded just before me.


----------



## Paradigm

Darin I just noticed something while I was playing around with the output settings in foobar because of the OP's question. With this new OFYH software version WASAPI output does not work correctly anymore.
 When I play music through ii now it skips and sounds like MIDI music in the old arcade games, or Super NES consoles. I have attached picture down below. I can try to clean wipe my Creative drivers as well as OFYH and do a complete reinstall but before I attempt to do so, is there anything you can glean from what I have described and provided below. Sound work fines in Direct Sound output mode, but with the older OFYH version I had Zero issues using WASAPI.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Darin I just noticed something while I was playing around with the output settings in foobar because of the OP's question. With this new OFYH software version WASAPI output does not work correctly anymore.
> When I play music through ii now it skips and sounds like MIDI music in the old arcade games, or Super NES consoles. I have attached picture down below. I can try to clean wipe my Creative drivers as well as OFYH and do a complete reinstall but before I attempt to do so, is there anything you can glean from what I have described and provided below. Sound work fines in Direct Sound output mode, but with the older OFYH version I had Zero issues using WASAPI.


 
 I tried WASAPI and it doesn't work on my system either, even after resampling everything to 48kHz.
  
 I will try to figure out the problem.
  
 But, just to let you know that even when using Direct Sound, your processed audio does not output via Direct Sound or the Windows Mixer. Out Of Your Head uses Kernel Streaming to output to your audio device.
  
 -Darin


----------



## bluzeboy

thank you for the reply darin


----------



## thekorsen

Hey, any word on if OOYH will be represented at CanJam NYC yet?


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> Hey, any word on if OOYH will be represented at CanJam NYC yet?


 
 We are currently deciding on which CanJam's we are doing next year. We will definitely be a CanJam SoCal. But the expense of traveling is a little prohibitive for us especially since anyone can demo and try Out Of Your Head any time.
  
 In fact, our online demo is the same demo we play at the trade shows and meets. So just put on your headphones and go to our online demo page: http://fongaudio.com/demo
 Plus you can always download the trial version and try it on your own computer and headphone system.
  
 While I really enjoy doing the shows, watching everyone's first time reaction to hearing our demo, and meeting all of you, I think an "in home trial" is the best way to audition Out Of Your Head.
 I guess there is the 50% off show specials. But if we don't make it to the CanJam's, we will offer the show special during the show dates anyway. 
  
 In fact, *we are extending the RMAF 50% off show special to everyone!* Here's the link: https://fongaudio.com/rmafcanjam-2016-show-special-extended/
  
 -Darin


----------



## thekorsen

darinf said:


> We are currently deciding on which CanJam's we are doing next year. We will definitely be a CanJam SoCal. But the expense of traveling is a little prohibitive for us especially since anyone can demo and try Out Of Your Head any time.
> 
> In fact, our online demo is the same demo we play at the trade shows and meets. So just put on your headphones and go to our online demo page: http://fongaudio.com/demo
> Plus you can always download the trial version and try it on your own computer and headphone system.
> ...


 
 Shoot, I was hoping to try to get head measurements from you guys if you'd be in the area. I really wish there was somewhere to get a measurements done on the east coast. Hell, if a testing rig was simple enough to put together I'd try to make one myself.
  
 Also, does that 50% off apply to effect licenses too? There are quite a few I've developed a liking for after some tube experimentation on the Vali 2. I might need to snag them all if that's the case!


----------



## darinf

thekorsen said:


> Shoot, I was hoping to try to get head measurements from you guys if you'd be in the area. I really wish there was somewhere to get a measurements done on the east coast. Hell, if a testing rig was simple enough to put together I'd try to make one myself.
> 
> Also, does that 50% off apply to effect licenses too? There are quite a few I've developed a liking for after some tube experimentation on the Vali 2. I might need to snag them all if that's the case!


 
 If we do come out to NYC, we could bring our measurement gear. However, i don't know any good listening rooms available in NYC to do measurements. I am sure there are lots, but I just don't know them. We would need to get permission to use someone's listening room.
 The cost for the measurement session is $400 per person.
  
 Alternately, if you can find someone with a Smyth Realiser, you can have them do a measurement for you and just send us the files. The conversion to a custom preset for Out Of Your Head is $150 per preset.
  
 The 50% off special only applies to new Out Of Your Head licenses. However, if anyone wants to buy all the presets, I will also extend the show special for a week. You can buy all the presets for the show price of $300. (normally $800)
  
 -Darin


----------



## krismusic

darinf said:


> If we do come out to NYC, we could bring our measurement gear. However, i don't know any good listening rooms available in NYC to do measurements. I am sure there are lots, but I just don't know them. We would need to get permission to use someone's listening room.
> The cost for the measurement session is $400 per person.
> 
> Alternately, if you can find someone with a Smyth Realiser, you can have them do a measurement for you and just send us the files. The conversion to a custom preset for Out Of Your Head is $150 per preset.
> ...



No plans to develop this technology as an app for iPhone Darin? To have this on the move would be amazing.


----------



## darinf

krismusic said:


> No plans to develop this technology as an app for iPhone Darin? To have this on the move would be amazing.


 
 Hi @krismusic ,
  
 I assume you are talking about an iOS or Android version of the Out Of Your Head software. (Not being able to do your own measurements...)
  
 Yes, we have always planned to have a version of Out Of Your Head for mobile devices. In fact, we have been promising to release an Android and iOS version for years. (Yikes, good thing we didn't go with crowd funding for this one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 Like many products, we thought it would be a lot less difficult than it has been. However, while I hesitate to make any more promises, we are making good progress. But I know how long it takes to get from the prototype phase to a final release version.
 We are definitely working on it.
 -Darin


----------



## krismusic

darinf said:


> Hi @krismusic
> ,
> 
> I assume you are talking about an iOS or Android version of the Out Of Your Head software. (Not being able to do your own measurements...)
> ...



That would be huge. A shame it's a way off. Good luck with it all and thank you for the response.


----------



## Takeanidea

krismusic said:


> No plans to develop this technology as an app for iPhone Darin? To have this on the move would be amazing.


 
 Hi Kris, you can record your OOYH playback and save it onto your iphone using an analogue to digital converter or another software solution
 Trev


----------



## Ripley

darinf said:


> Hi @krismusic ,
> 
> I assume you are talking about an iOS or Android version of the Out Of Your Head software. (Not being able to do your own measurements...)
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am going to be ecstatic when OOYH is released on Android. Watching movies on my phone will take a huge leap in enjoyment.


----------



## darinf

takeanidea said:


> Hi Kris, you can record your OOYH playback and save it onto your iphone using an analogue to digital converter or another software solution
> Trev


 
 Yes, in fact, the best way is to do it digitally through software only. You don't need an ADC or digital outputs from your computer, etc.
  
 Here's the instructions for using Audacity on Windows to record the output from Out Of Your Head:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/30#post_9986088
  
 Here's the instructions for using Audacity on the Mac:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/315#post_11126817
  
 The biggest issue is that it's real-time and you have to manually start/stop the recording and then cut and rename/tag the resulting files. That can be a little bit of a pain if you want to cut each individual song.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

For some reason My license key for OOFH no longer works. I upgraded to the a never version of OFYH but decided I didn't like it so I reinstalled the older software version and while initially it worked for few weeks when I downgraded, all of a sudden my license is no longer bring recognized as being valid. I sent you an email Darin explaining the situation further.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> For some reason My license key for OOFH no longer works. I upgraded to the a never version of OFYH but decided I didn't like it so I reinstalled the older software version and while initially it worked for few weeks when I downgraded, all of a sudden my license is no longer bring recognized as being valid. I sent you an email Darin explaining the situation further.


 
 Thanks @Paradigm, I just sent you an e-mail. Hopefully the new license file will work.


----------



## krismusic

takeanidea said:


> Hi Kris, you can record your OOYH playback and save it onto your iphone using an analogue to digital converter or another software solution
> Trev







darinf said:


> Yes, in fact, the best way is to do it digitally through software only. You don't need an ADC or digital outputs from your computer, etc.
> 
> Here's the instructions for using Audacity on Windows to record the output from Out Of Your Head:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/30#post_9986088
> ...



This sounds like a good solution. Unfortunately, 1) my computer skills are poor. 2) my computer is archaic and basic. 
Either I have to upskill myself hugely or wait for an app where miracles happen at the touch of a button! 
I'm afraid that it will be the later but thanks for the info.


----------



## Paradigm

darinf said:


> Thanks @Paradigm, I just sent you an e-mail. Hopefully the new license file will work.


 
  
  
 Thank you Darin for your prompt response. The new License is working and I can't tell you how appreciative I am to see how well you treat and service your customers. I feel naked without OFYH and honestly wouldn't be able to watch any movies without it since I have to use headphones as I live in an apartment with a roommate. Your software has been one of the best investments I have ever made. 
  
 Also please check your email when you have time there is a slight error in the generation file.


----------



## bavinck

Couple questions about this:
  
 1. Can I use this software in JRiver to play movie files with 7.1 dts-hd codex? JRiver itself will not decode this signal. How about other HD-level multichannel codex?
 2. Which speaker package is good for cinema action movies with excellent impact and subbass rumble?
 3. Can JRiver Parametric EQ still be used when using this software?
  
 Thanks!
  
 Edit: Added 3rd question.


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> Couple questions about this:
> 
> 1. Can I use this software in JRiver to play movie files with 7.1 dts-hd codex? JRiver itself will not decode this signal. How about other HD-level multichannel codex?
> 2. Which speaker package is good for cinema action movies with excellent impact and subbass rumble?
> ...


 
 Hi @bavinck ,
 Thanks for posting.
  
 To answer your questions:
  
 1) The current version of JRiver supports decoding all HD audio codecs from Blu-Ray sources. Older versions of JRiver required the user to download a third party DTS decoder library.
 Here's the page with this information: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray
  


> HD Audio Media Center is capable decoding the full range of audio codecs used on commercial Blu-ray Discs itself, while preserving their full bitrate and audio bit depth. This includes HD audio codecs such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, which MC can read and decompress losslessly.
> 
> We recommend that you use Media Center to decode HD audio because this gives you access to the full power of MC's audio engine, including VideoClock, DSPs, and MC's powerful Volume system.
> 
> ...


 
  
 2) My personal opinion is that the Magico speakers tend to have a lot of bass for movies. I also like the recording studios or home theater presets since they are in more damped and calibrated rooms.

  

 3) In JRiver, you can apply any of their DSP functions to the audio before it is sent to Out Of Your Head for processing. You can use their EQ, channel up-conversion, etc. (Just don't use any of their headphone processing functions as that will sound really strange when compounded on top of Out Of Your Head.)

  

 -Darin


----------



## bavinck

Thanks. I am currently using a trial version of jriver and it does not seem to play movies with an hd audio signal (dts hd or true Dolby) could it be the trial version does not have all the codecs?


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> Thanks. I am currently using a trial version of jriver and it does not seem to play movies with an hd audio signal (dts hd or true Dolby) could it be the trial version does not have all the codecs?


 
 I don't think is has features disabled in the trial version. You could ask them.
  
 What are you using as a source? An actual Blu-Ray disk? Or a ripped file from a Blu-Ray? With ripped files, sometimes the audio is not preserved properly. It just depends on what software you are using to rip the files.


----------



## edwardsean

Hi. Periodically I try to send an upmixed multichannel signal into OOYH. I don't like JRiver's bulit in upmixing option, so I use professional plugins. This time I'm working with Nugen's Halo upmixing plugin. However, I can't seem to find a multichannel host that will load the plugin and send 5.1 or 7.1 to OOYH.

Does anyone know of a plugin host that can do multichannel on a Mac? I have Audiohijack but it also seems only to output in stereo.  

Thanks!


----------



## bavinck

Getting a windows i/o error message when loading OOYH. Get what sounds like bells repeatedly ringing, which eventually stop. Setting jriver to output to default device (set as dac in windows) and no sound is coming through. I don't see an option in jriver to "output mode settings/device". Help?


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> Getting a windows i/o error message when loading OOYH. Get what sounds like bells repeatedly ringing, which eventually stop. Setting jriver to output to default device (set as dac in windows) and no sound is coming through. I don't see an option in jriver to "output mode settings/device". Help?


 
 In the notes on the download e-mail is a link to a work-around for this bug:
 https://fongaudio.com/work-around-for-out-of-your-head-ooyh-output-error-bug/
  
 Sorry about the bug.
  
 -Darin
  
 P.S. In JRiver, just leave it set to output to the Window's default playback device. Then Out Of Your Head will automatically switch for you when you launch Out Of Your Head.


----------



## bavinck

That did the trick, working great.
  
 Holy cow man, this is AMAZEBALLS!!!! I cannot believe it sounds like this!!!
  
 I want to buy this and ALL the presets. Can I still get the $300 deal for everything???


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> That did the trick, working great.
> 
> Holy cow man, this is AMAZEBALLS!!!! I cannot believe it sounds like this!!!
> 
> I want to buy this and ALL the presets. Can I still get the $300 deal for everything???


 
 Glad you got it working and glad you like it!
  
 Yes, the RMAF/CanJam show special is going on until midnight PST tonight: $75 for a license with one preset. $300 for a license and a license for all 27 presets.
  
 Send an e-mail to us: info-at-fongaudio.com
  
 -Darin


----------



## bavinck

email sent


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> email sent


 
 Thanks. I just sent you and e-mail with the coupon code.


----------



## edwardsean

For anyone interested, professional level upmixing from stereo tracks to 5.1/7.1 for OOYH can be done.
  
 I've been pursuing this for years to take full advantage of OOYH's surround sound capability. I've been so impressed with this while watching movies. Sometimes, at the end, when the credits roll up, there is a beautiful multichannel mix of a track I own in stereo. Those big cinematic orchestral pieces sound grand in 5.1/7.1 but less so in 2.0 and the bass is diminished. 
  
 So, I've experimented with upmixing but the only choice was JRiver's upmixing feature, which is very poor quality: artificial, phasey, and cloudy. The problem was always that no music host, as far as I'm aware, can handle _multichannel_ plugins. (Pure Music has multichannel support, but the plugins won't load.) It took a lot of trial and error, but there is a way. 
  
 There are a handful of professional grade upmixing plugins. Penteo, Auro, Iosono have produced upmixing algorithms that convincingly emulate real surround mixes from stereo sources. They are used by engineers for major production releases by e.g., Sony, Disney, Paramount, etc. However, it wasn't until late last year that Nugen introduced their upmixing plug called Halo. The thing about Halo is that it has built in digital mixer and downmix processing.
  
 So what I did was run multiple instances of Halo processing two channels each in Audiohijack. So for 5.1: I ran three instances of Halo upmixing to 5.1 but muting all but 2 channels which I downmixed to stereo: 1) L/R, 2) LS/RS, 3) C/LFE.  I then fed each pair into OOYH routed to the appropriate channel. Luckily, though Audiohijack restricts you to stereo output, you can open multiples of the same output device and assign the L/R channels to different multi-channels.
  
 The whole software chain looks like this:
  
 Audirvana/Tidal > Audiohijack [Sonarworks > EQ > Nugen Halo X3 > OOYH X3] > OOYH.
  
 Here is a screen grab of the Audiohijack matrix:
  

  
  
 I have to say, this is ridiculously convoluted, system intensive, and all the professional upmixing plugs are very pricey. Halo is $499 and the trial requires iLok authorization. So this is not a simple matter. If anyone knows an easier route, please let me know!
  
 But, I also have to say, the results are... spectacular, truly spectacular.


----------



## bavinck

Darin,
 Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?


----------



## darinf

bavinck said:


> Darin,
> Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?



Hi bavinck, 
Sonarworks is a two channel plug in. AFAIK, it doesn't support more than two channels. 

Also, since it's a plug in, it can't be put after Out Of Your Head. In theory you might be able to setup some kind of plug in host audio chain to put the sonarworks plug in after Out Of Your Head like edwardsean above. But it's not a very easy option. 

-Darin


----------



## edwardsean

bavinck said:


> Darin,
> Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?


 

 Hey Bavinck. Yes, it's as Darin described. Since it's a multichannel file and sonarworks is stereo only, you have to capture the system audio after OOYH downmixes to stereo. Fortunately, since you're working with a multichannel source file it's not as complicated as upmixing. You do have to get an audio capture program that can take plugins. Audiohijack is your best option, but you have to be careful to configure the system to avoid routing the signal to OOYH twice.
  
 I've done this with Kodi sending multichannel audio to OOYH and then to audio hijack/sonarworks and then to a transport/DAC/amp. I should say though sonarworks doesn't like being but _after_ OOYH. I didn't like the result. I suppose you could use Audiohijack to put sonarworks before OOYH by creating a multichannel matrix running multiple instances of sonarworks. That's similar to what i did above, but It's complicated and processor intensive. 
  
 Darin worked so hard to produce the low latency version and by chaining in sonarworks you reintroduce latency and have to fiddle with the AV sync. In my opinion sonarworks is not worth it for video files, unless sonarworks comes out with a multichannel version you can easily put before OOYH. To my ears at least, video files sound just fine going directly into OOYH.


----------



## bavinck

Ooyh with hd700 big soundstage really sounds like actual speakers in a room. My hd650 is good with it, but the 700 is completely immersive.


----------



## musicreo

Quote:


edwardsean said:


> So, I've experimented with upmixing but the only choice was JRiver's upmixing feature, which is very poor quality: artificial, phasey, and cloudy. The problem was always that no music host, as far as I'm aware, can handle _multichannel_ plugins.


 
 With foobar2000 you  can use _multichannel VST plugins. _


----------



## edwardsean

musicreo said:


> With foobar2000 you  can use _multichannel VST plugins. _


 
 Right. Sorry, I should've clarified, I was referring to OSX only. Once you're in the Apple universe you get Mac-myopia. Thanks for reminding me about Foobar. I wish they would make a Mac port!


----------



## phoenixdogfan

As both an Sonarworks and an OOYH user, I can use both only with two channel applications by running Sonarworks as a JRiver Plugin and sending the output to OOYH.
  
 As a result,  when I'm doing multi channel movies,  I find I strongly prefer to use my LCD X's to my Senn HD 800's.  I find that the soundstaging with the X's in multichannel Dolby HD is just fine, and its bass makes it more realistic for movies.  I could probably enjoy the Senns if I had multichannel eq since eq does wonders for the bass in 2 channel, but without that I find the bass  lacking for home theatre, also  the unequalized  highs prove wearing even with my SD mod.


----------



## edwardsean

phoenixdogfan said:


> As both an Sonarworks and an OOYH user, I can use both only with two channel applications by running Sonarworks as a JRiver Plugin and sending the output to OOYH.
> 
> As a result,  when I'm doing multi channel movies,  I find I strongly prefer to use my LCD X's to my Senn HD 800's.  I find that the soundstaging with the X's in multichannel Dolby HD is just fine, and its bass makes it more realistic for movies.  I could probably enjoy the Senns if I had multichannel eq since eq does wonders for the bass in 2 channel, but without that I find the bass  lacking for home theatre, also  the unequalized  highs prove wearing even with my SD mod.


 
  
 I don't know if the Cello preset works for you. For me it works the best with an expansive soundstage and the bass is huge and deep in 5.1/7.1 through the LFE channel.


----------



## edwardsean

Darin, i wonder if I could get your thoughts on something. 
  
 The drawback of OOYH is that there is no simple way to customize the presets for each individual user. I'm wondering if repositioning the headphone drivers would help augment the difference between the measured file and the user. 
  
 Lately, I've been experimenting with this. Normally, of course, the earcups simply lay flat against my head around my ears. However, I added some foam shapes to the top of the earcups which allows me to articulate the angle and position of the drivers relative to my ear. As I've done this, I've found a placement that dramatically increases the accuracy and realism of the convolution processing. It's actually pretty amazing to me. 
  
 I'm wondering if the improvements are because, in so doing, I'm more closely approximating the measured HRTF and maybe even altering the pinnae response. It's given me an idea of just how much better a custom measurement would be. At the same time, the results sound so "correct" at this point, I'm not sure how much more accurate it can get. Of at truth, I'm not sure exactly what's going on, but this repositioning, along with fine tuning the upmixing stereo to surround, has given me another jump in sound.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Darin, i wonder if I could get your thoughts on something.
> 
> The drawback of OOYH is that there is no simple way to customize the presets for each individual user. I'm wondering if repositioning the headphone drivers would help augment the difference between the measured file and the user.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @edwardsean ,
 Wow, I should hire you for our R&D team! I am glad you found a solution which increases the accuracy for you with Out Of Your Head.
  
 The thing is, that while one adjustment may work well for you, there's no guarantees it will work for anyone else. The angle/shape of the pinnae affects the sound, of course. So in your case, it is possible that your adjustments to the angle of the driver could result in a more accurate sound. Maybe people could use a pair of AKG K1000's so they can easily adjust the angle of the drivers. On my pair of AKG 100's, the angle of the drivers greatly affects the sound in general with or without Out Of Your Head. 
  
 The other possibility is that for some people IEM's may work better since they at least eliminate the interaction of the sound from headphone drivers with the pinnae. In theory that should eliminate one more variable in the equation. But you would think then that IEM's would always sound better with Out Of Your Head. I don't think that's the case though for everyone. 
  
 Regardless, I still think a custom measurement would still yield an even better result. Unfortunately a custom measurement is not so easy to get done.
  
 Thanks for posting your findings though. Definitely worth a try for some of you DIY people out there.


----------



## edwardsean

Thanks for the input and encouragement Darin! Yes, I still plan on getting a custom measurement when I can find someone who can do it well in my area. I know I shouldn't question whether the sound can be improved as it always seems to!
  
 I have to say that it's taken quite a bit of experimenting and system matching to realize the potential of what I first heard from OOYH years ago. But, each step has been well rewarded. At this point, I've moved beyond satisfaction to the territory of the surprising.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Everyone hears differently.  For me the Focal Scala and the Magico Q7 are the ones I've settled on.  The Q7's are a little more pinpoint but have smaller images,  the Scalas are incredibly vivid, but the individual images are more spread out.  Both have excellent bass and tonality.  The Cellos never seemed to work for me.  Just goes to show that the individual HRTF is the ruling factor.  Bass is not a problem with eitherthe Scala or the Q7's, btw, it's deep, taut, and impactful without in any way overpowering or obscuring the midrange.


----------



## bavinck

phoenixdogfan said:


> Everyone hears differently.  For me the Focal Scala and the Magico Q7 are the ones I've settled on.  The Q7's are a little more pinpoint but have smaller images,  the Scalas are incredibly vivid, but the individual images are more spread out.  Both have excellent bass and tonality.  The Cellos never seemed to work for me.  Just goes to show that the individual HRTF is the ruling factor.  Bass is not a problem with eitherthe Scala or the Q7's, btw, it's deep, taut, and impactful without in any way overpowering or obscuring the midrange.


 
 I like those two as well.


----------



## edwardsean

Recently, someone PM'd me asking about getting the most out of OOYH. I didn't post it here because it's stuff I've said before on this thread: spending enough mental adjustment time with presets, building your system with OOYH in mind, etc. However, there are some newer developments I would like to gather and highlight in case you've overlooked them. 
 
When we review gear there are a few words we toss around that resist definition to the point of being useless: words like "musical' and "euphonic." Maybe the most problematic word is: "correct." In our incredibly subjective worlds of solo listening what does it mean for sound to be "correct"? Yet, we use these terms because they have an irreplaceable, if undefinable, usefulness. I bring up "correctness" or "rightness" because up till now that's been the value that has most eluded me in using OOYH. 
 
OOYH made things sound bigger, better, more musical and more euphonic, but not "correct" to me. Whenever I switched OOYH out of my system chain, everything deflated into smaller and thinner sound. However, it also sounded more right, more true to source (even though I've never heard the source). I was always aware that using OOYH meant accepting a degree of adulteration along with its enhancement. I was not moving laterally from headphone correctness to speaker correctness. I took a hit in the fidelity my system was capable of producing. It was the cost of bigger and better sound, and I never regretted the choice. 
 
I say this understanding that a custom preset would've effectively addressed this tradeoff. I still plan on getting a custom measurement, but so far one thing or another has kept me from getting it. The thing is in the last few months a few elements have come together with OOYH that leave me frankly shocked by the results. If I turn out the lights, I think I'm listening to speakers--and not just barely speakers, but high quality speakers in a well damped and tuned room. In other words, things sound "correct." In fact, at this point, I can even leave the lights on!
 
After assembling a superb system around OOYH three more things came together for this to happen. 
 
1) *Sonarworks*. If you're not already using OOYH in conjunction with sonarworks headphone EQ correction, you should. The Smyth Realiser applies EQ to linearise your headphones relative to their speaker emulation. This is ideal, but falling short of that, you at least want your headphones to be as neutral as possible. Otherwise, you're adding another distorting effect between you and the presets captured in OOYH. 
 
2) *Headphone driver placement. *I honestly don't know if this will work for everyone, but for me this has been absolutely instrumental. I attached shaped foam to my headphone's earcups and experimented with shifting the *angle, distance, and position* of the drivers relative to my ears. I kept moving the drivers along those different axes until it sounded "right." My guess (and it's just a guess) is that this works because it can augment some of the differences in HRTF and the way sound is engaging the pinnae. 
 
3) *Professional caliber upmixing. *These three additions are ordered by how far someone is willing to go, and I know this last part reaches well outside the pale. So, I won't get into it again, but it's really something else. It's just a bit mind blowing to me that I'm taking a stereo source, generating surround channels that weren't there and feeding them to surround speakers–that aren't there. That it all comes off so convincingly, and without any outboard hardware–it's just hugely gratifying to me. So much so that I had to share. Thanks again Darin!
 
All the best.


----------



## Takeanidea

edwardsean said:


> I bring up "correctness" or "rightness" because up till now that's been the value that has most eluded me in using OOYH.
> 
> OOYH made things sound bigger, better, more musical and more euphonic, but not "correct" to me. Whenever I switched OOYH out of my system chain, everything deflated into smaller and thinner sound. However, it also sounded more right, more true to source (even though I've never heard the source).
> 
> ...


 
  
  


darinf said:


> The thing is, that while one adjustment may work well for you, there's no guarantees it will work for anyone else. The angle/shape of the pinnae affects the sound, of course. So in your case, it is possible that your adjustments to the angle of the driver could result in a more accurate sound. Maybe people could use a pair of AKG K1000's so they can easily adjust the angle of the drivers. On my pair of AKG K1000's, the angle of the drivers greatly affects the sound in general with or without Out Of Your Head.


 
  
  
 I agree with Sean and Darin , the placement of the driver to your ear will make a difference to the perceived sound quality of OOYH. IEMs , as we all know , require very careful placement to get the right sound from them . It often requires lots of micro adjustments pushing the drivers slightly toward or up or down or away from the ear before the right amount of treble and bass response are produced. This is why I don't think that necessarily IEMs will make the biggest difference in sound quality compared to full sozed phones , it they are not producing enough bass and the mids are prominent that will probably be because the IEMs aren't quite in the sweet spot.
 I have a pair of AKG K1000s as does Darin. Likewise , Darin states he has the low SN version . Darin , do you between 0-5000? That is the bass heavy model , in my opinion the most accurate of the 2 production models made. 
 I read what @darinf said above and having experienced, as @edwardsean puts it "smaller and thinner sound" through the software , decided to try moving the cups of the AKG K1000s from the fully out mode. This is what I had hitherto assumed to be the closest sound to a speaker setup and I had made the logical jump that would be the best sound for the OOYH setup. By moving the speakers in 20% I found a much fuller more realistic sound. 
 I appreciate not everyone can get a hold of the K1000s as they are now extremely rare; but anyone interested in utilising the software to it's best really ought to try to try a pair out sometime , or get a proper measurement done.
 With a Smyth Realiser A16 preordered I should truly be getting the best of both worlds by 2017


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, just to clarify, when I talked about "smaller and thinner sound" I was referring to the straight audio chain _without_ OOYH. I think I might've put it in a confusing way. I was comparing the sound of a headphone which is small and thin relative to loudspeakers which image larger and are tonally fuller. Since, OOYH captures full size speakers the sound is generally larger with the software engaged and smaller without it. 
  
 However, I definitely know what you're talking about. Some presets sound thin and small when compared to other presets. This phenomenon is something other than the differing sound signatures between captured speakers. To my ears the sound is off, it's wrong. I assumed that this just meant that the preset doesn't' work with my HRTF/ear shape. Like yourself, I'm now experimenting with repositioning the headphone drivers to see what improvements are possible.


----------



## darinf

takeanidea said:


> I agree with Sean and Darin , the placement of the driver to your ear will make a difference to the perceived sound quality of OOYH. IEMs , as we all know , require very careful placement to get the right sound from them . It often requires lots of micro adjustments pushing the drivers slightly toward or up or down or away from the ear before the right amount of treble and bass response are produced. This is why I don't think that necessarily IEMs will make the biggest difference in sound quality compared to full sozed phones , it they are not producing enough bass and the mids are prominent that will probably be because the IEMs aren't quite in the sweet spot.
> I have a pair of AKG K1000s as does Darin. Likewise , Darin states he has the low SN version . Darin , do you between 0-5000? That is the bass heavy model , in my opinion the most accurate of the 2 production models made.
> I read what @darinf said above and having experienced, as @edwardsean puts it "smaller and thinner sound" through the software , decided to try moving the cups of the AKG K1000s from the fully out mode. This is what I had hitherto assumed to be the closest sound to a speaker setup and I had made the logical jump that would be the best sound for the OOYH setup. By moving the speakers in 20% I found a much fuller more realistic sound.
> I appreciate not everyone can get a hold of the K1000s as they are now extremely rare; but anyone interested in utilising the software to it's best really ought to try to try a pair out sometime , or get a proper measurement done.
> With a Smyth Realiser A16 preordered I should truly be getting the best of both worlds by 2017


 
 I have K1000 S/N #03344. Given a powerful amp, they have more bass than I expected.
  
 Angling the drivers in will move the drivers closer to the ear and give you more bass, but relatively a more closed soundstage without Out Of Your Head. But with Out Of Your Head, the sound is so much more open that the "open-ness" of the headphones don't matter as much.
  
 Once you get your A16 and do some of your own measurements, we will be able to convert those measurements to work with Out Of Your Head.


----------



## Takeanidea

Looking forward to it Darin , good to see you've got the bass heavy model too. I am looking forward to getting back to Cornwall and doing some more listening with OOYH now I have discovered the secret


----------



## edwardsean

Hey Darin, could I request a feature, which I think may be simple though maybe not beneficial to everyone?
  
 Whenever OOYH Is initiated it automatically switches system audio in mac to use OOYH as the preferred device. The problem for me is that since I'm feeding OOYH from Audirvana or audiohijack having system audio also set to OOYH interferes with the signal and the output sounds warbly. 
  
 I have to reset the system audio back to internal speakers which always cuts off the output from OOYH (though its still processing audio). So I then select another output device in OOYH and then reselect the output device I actually use which brings back the output while leaving system audio on internal speakers and out of OOYH. 
  
 It's really just a matter of a bunch of clicks, but since I'm running a bit of a complicated software chain I occasionally get crashes and have to go through this little jig each time. If OOYH would just leave the system audio output at its current selection or if there were an option to turn off automatic selection of OOYH that would be great. 
  
 I understand if maybe most users prefer the auto setting or if its more complicated to change than I suppose. Just thought I'd ask.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Hey Darin, could I request a feature, which I think may be simple though maybe not beneficial to everyone?
> 
> Whenever OOYH Is initiated it automatically switches system audio in mac to use OOYH as the preferred device. The problem for me is that since I'm feeding OOYH from Audirvana or audiohijack having system audio also set to OOYH interferes with the signal and the output sounds warbly.
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting...I have never had anyone request the auto-switching feature to be disabled.
 I will look into making a preference to disable auto switching.
  
 To be honest, I am not sure how switching the output device in the OS would affect your configuration. But your setup is pretty unusual to say the least.
  
 Out Of Your Head is already tricky enough for most people to get working. It's not hard once you understand what the signal path should be, but I can't imagine not having the auto-switching. People would contact me constantly saying that Out Of Your Head is not working!
  
 Anyway, let me see if there's an easy way to do that.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin
  
 P.S. As a MOT here on Head-Fi, I am limited as to what I can post here. So, I would recommend finding Darin Fong Audio on Facebook or Twitter if you want to hear about any product announcements or updates.


----------



## Fox1977

Hi Darin !
 Last month, i got a full demo of the forthcoming Smyth Realiser A16 (that i preordered on KickStarter), with a custom 7.1.4 PRIR measurement. It was incredible !
 I was wondering if you are planning to propose an Atmos preset in a close future ? If not in 7.1.4, maybe in 5.1.2 (to stick to 8 channels for starters)...


----------



## darinf

fox1977 said:


> Hi Darin !
> Last month, i got a full demo of the forthcoming Smyth Realiser A16 (that i preordered on KickStarter), with a custom 7.1.4 PRIR measurement. It was incredible !
> I was wondering if you are planning to propose an Atmos preset in a close future ? If not in 7.1.4, maybe in 5.1.2 (to stick to 8 channels for starters)...


 
 Hi @Fox1977
 Yes, we do plan on supporting more than 8 channels in the future for Atmos, DTS-X, Auro, etc. We also plan on supporting conversion of Realiser A16 measurement file conversion for use in Out Of Your Head. However, that will only happen after we are able to acquire an A16, so we may not have support for A16 measurements right away.
 Since Out Of Your Head is computer based though, you would require a Windows or Mac app that could play a Blu-Ray and actually decode the Atmos or DTS-X audio rather than just pass it through. As far as I know, there is no such software. If anyone knows of such an application, let me know!
  
 Also, the CPU processing required to process 12 to 16 channels of audio will go up. We will try to optimize our engine to minimize the CPU usage.


----------



## AtrafCreez

Would that "Out of your head" work as well for the Sennheiser  Wireless RS 180, RS 195 RS (lossless) ? Thanks


----------



## darinf

atrafcreez said:


> Would that "Out of your head" work as well for the Sennheiser  Wireless RS 180, RS 195 RS (lossless) ? Thanks


 
 Yes, definitely. Out Of Your Head works well with those Sennheisers. In fact, I was just talking to a customer who has the RS185 headphones and said they worked great with Out Of Your Head.
 Wireless solutions can be more convenient if you are integrating a computer based playback solution for watching video on a large screen TV. That way you can sit far enough away from the screen and not have to worry about long cables.


----------



## AtrafCreez

Thanks, I'm saving my money !


----------



## edwardsean

Hey Darin, 
  
 I just found the new 1.2c build of OOYH, but I couldn't find the changelog. I can see the new speaker presets and am checking them out. Can you let us know if anything else has been done?
  
 Also, I'm getting a lot more crackle for some reason. I'm getting those digital pops even when I just scroll in Audirvana or even pass my cursor over album thumbnails. Of course, I am pushing my system up at the limits with all my additional processing, however, the previous build before this one only gave me the occasional pop here and there. It may just be my system acting up, and as it is I have a new speced out Macbook Pro on the way. It's just a little concerning. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Hey Darin,
> 
> I just found the new 1.2c build of OOYH, but I couldn't find the changelog. I can see the new speaker presets and am checking them out. Can you let us know if anything else has been done?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @edwardsean ,
 You can find the Mac version changelog here:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-mac-os-x-version-release-notes/
  
 The only thing we changed was to add the three new presets. The software and engine has not changed at all.
  
 Are you running Sierra? Which version of OS X are you running?
  
 We are looking into an issue in Sierra which might cause some audio artifacts while using other apps or menus, etc. But we have not seen that on every Sierra system we've tested. We have also not seen this problem on previous versions of OS X.
  
 But running a lot of processes in the background can certainly make the problem worse depending on the speed of your hardware.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## edwardsean

darinf said:


> Hi @edwardsean ,
> You can find the Mac version changelog here:
> https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-mac-os-x-version-release-notes/
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Darin, I am running Sierra v. 10.12.2. As I mentioned, it could just be my system. As you know, I am pushing it pretty hard.
  
 I am really looking forward to the new machine (grin). My current audio system has a pretty black noise floor, it stinks to have it all ruined by my laptop fan. That's my fault of course because of all the software I'm running on top of OOYH. If Audirvana would just support multichannel plugins, I would be set. 
  
 At any rate I ordered the new Mac mostly for my work, but part of the reason was to be able to run my audio software chain without fan noise. I hope it'll work out the way. 
  
 Please do let us know if the Sierra issue gets resolved. I'll chime back in to let you know if the new machine w/ Sierra fixes the digital artifacting.


----------



## edwardsean

Darin, sorry for the false alarm. it was totally my laptop. I took the audio hijack loop out of my chain and everything was smooth as glass, nary a snap, crackle, or pop. I should've thought of that first before writing in. So, it is just my additional system load and OS X processing fluctuations.


----------



## edwardsean

Hey Darin. Could could you describe the kind of artifacts that you are getting with Sierra. For some time now I've noticed a very low level digital ringing or resonance artifact. I thought it had to do with my additional processing but is it possible that this is the Sierra issue with OOYH. I notice it mostly on quieter passages during decay trails.


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> Hey Darin. Could could you describe the kind of artifacts that you are getting with Sierra. For some time now I've noticed a very low level digital ringing or resonance artifact. I thought it had to do with my additional processing but is it possible that this is the Sierra issue with OOYH. I notice it mostly on quieter passages during decay trails.


 
 Hi @edwardsean ,
  
 The artifact I am talking about has to do with the Mac version. When Out Of Your Head is running and any app redraws the graphics in it's GUI, that can cause a slight, fast clicking sound in Out Of Your Head. It occurs when you do something in another app like load a web page or move a window, or launch another app. 
  
 I have not experienced the low level digital ringing issue you are describing.
  
 -Darin


----------



## edwardsean

darinf said:


> Hi @edwardsean ,
> 
> The artifact I am talking about has to do with the Mac version. When Out Of Your Head is running and any app redraws the graphics in it's GUI, that can cause a slight, fast clicking sound in Out Of Your Head. It occurs when you do something in another app like load a web page or move a window, or launch another app.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Got it. Yes, I am experiencing that artifact on Sierra. I'm hoping that the new machine with more ram and processing power will clear it up somewhat. 
  
 Thanks for confirming that the other issue I'm having is due to my other processing. It's what I suspected and reasonably tolerable.


----------



## Paradigm

Hey Darin I am having a bit of a crisis here as I have been dealt a blow(death) to my system component(Motherboard). I sent you an email explaining the situation since I'm sure the current licence info I have will probably not work with whatever soon to be replacement board I have decide to get get.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Hey Darin I am having a bit of a crisis here as I have been dealt a blow(death) to my system component(Motherboard). I sent you an email explaining the situation since I'm sure the current licence info I have will probably not work with whatever soon to be replacement board I have decide to get get.


 
 Hi @Paradigm,
 (I don't believe I received your e-mail, but I am not sure what your e-mail address is. You can e-mail us via our website contact form or directly at "info-at-fongaudio-dot-com")
 Sorry to hear about your motherboard. Replacing a major component like that is a pain.
  
 But with regard to Out Of Your Head, it's no problem at all. 
 You are correct, your existing license file will not work on a new motherboard, but we can issue you a new license, for no charge, of course.
  
 Once your new computer is up and running, download and install the latest version of Out Of Your Head from our website:
 https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/ 
  
 Then, launch Out Of Your Head.
 Double click on any of the presets.
 In the pop-up window, copy your UUID value and e-mail to us. (Please e-mail us from the e-mail you used to purchase the license originally, if possible or let us know which e-mail that you used so we can look up your license.)
 Once we receive your e-mail, we can e-mail you a new license for your new computer.
  
 Good luck with your new motherboard. I hope your "patient" has a speedy recovery.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

darinf said:


> Hi @Paradigm,
> (I don't believe I received your e-mail, but I am not sure what your e-mail address is. You can e-mail us via our website contact form or directly at "info-at-fongaudio-dot-com")
> Sorry to hear about your motherboard. Replacing a major component like that is a pain.
> 
> ...


 
  
 My Email is Mim3tic***@gmail.com. I sent you an email, but I can send another one if for whatever reason you did receive it.
  
 I am wondering Darin, how is Windows 10 with OFYH. I am a hardcore Windows 7 user and not a fan of 10 but eventually I will add a Windows 10 SSD drive to boot up into. I noticed your newer OFYH software version has a game mode which I am very interested in purchasing as in add on. I forgot how much the game mode licence costs since I don't have my PC working anymore in order to see. My understanding is that Windows 10 offers lower latency than 7 with respects to the Processing engine built into OFYH, do correct me if I am wrong. If I go windows 10 I will have to commit to it for my HTPC SSD and I am not sure I want to go that route without extensive testing with my HTPC software such as Madvr, MPC-HC etc......
  
 In regards to the game mode, Is there a way you can issue me an interdependent licence when I purchase the Game mode so what I can exclusively use it on my Gaming Drive, as I usually keep my gaming install separate from my HTPC one. I don't like to mess with my HTPC Drive/setup once it's all setup correctly. Too many things can go wrong with having a gaming system install fused with a HTPC setup, hence why I use two different drives and OS install for each.
  
 I had my PC setup this way before the grim reaper  came and visited it.
  
 - SSD #1(500GB EVO)  Gaming Drive
 - SSD #2(Crucial M4) HTPC drive with OFYH
 - SSD #2 (Crucial M4) Full HardDrive Encryption(TrueCrypt) for work related purposes.
  
 Maybe with my new board I will no longer encounter that problem where the licence would not register sometimes requiring me to reboot it 20 times before it accepted it. I wonder might the TWO identical Crucial M4 Drives had been a cause of that problem, with one of them being Encrypted? With my new setup I hope to have running soon I really would like to be able to avoid it tripping the licence up like it did with my previous dead board.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> My Email is Mim3tic***@gmail.com. I sent you an email, but I can send another one if for whatever reason you did receive it.
> 
> I am wondering Darin, how is Windows 10 with OFYH. I am a hardcore Windows 7 user and not a fan of 10 but eventually I will add a Windows 10 SSD drive to boot up into. I noticed your newer OFYH software version has a game mode which I am very interested in purchasing as in add on. I forgot how much the game mode licence costs since I don't have my PC working anymore in order to see. My understanding is that Windows 10 offers lower latency than 7 with respects to the Processing engine built into OFYH, do correct me if I am wrong. If I go windows 10 I will have to commit to it for my HTPC SSD and I am not sure I want to go that route without extensive testing with my HTPC software such as Madvr, MPC-HC etc......
> 
> ...


 
 I am not 100% of what you're asking, but...
  
 First, I believe the latest version of Out Of Your Head works with Windows 7, 8, and 10. So you can use the latest version with any of your boot modes. The sound quality and latency should be the same no matter which OS you boot into.
  
 Also, the Gamer Preset, uses the same engine as all the other presets. There is no difference between the Gamer version and the other presets. The only reason we have the Gamer version is to offer a low cost way for people to use Out Of Your Head technology without having to purchase the full Out Of Your Head license. So for people who don't care about accessing all the different speaker presets, and just want high quality 7.1 audio with their headphones, they can get that for $25 instead of $150.
  
 If you already have a $150 license for Out Of Your Head, then your presets will work just as well for gaming as the Gaming Preset. However, if you try the Gamer Preset and find that the sound signature of the speakers and room works well for gaming for you, then you can certainly purchase the Gamer Preset for $25, which is the same price as adding any of the other presets.
  
 So, with that said, I understand that you would potentially need a different license for each version of Windows that you boot into. I am not 100% sure since the hardware is the same, but I suspect if the boot drive changes, then your Out Of Your Head UUID value will also change. Once you get back up and running, let me know what the UUID's are for each Windows version you boot and we will figure it out for you so the license will work no matter which version of Windows you boot into.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Paradigm

Thanks a bunch Darin for answering my questions. I wasn't aware of the gamer preset situation and thought it was a special Low latency mode for 7.1 audio with games. With that being said how bad is the latency with the newest version of OFYH such as do you noticed the audio latency not matching up with the game sound actions? .
  
 On my rig I was still using the software version from 11 months ago which had double the latency then your newer version which had a much quicker more efficient processing engine and was also louder. I own 3 audio Presets:
  
 -Genelec( The most neutral and accurate DSP preset for my HD650's that sounds the least processed for listening to Music)
 - Italian Speakers(I use this one for all the Movies I watch)
 -2.1 planar magnetic speakers, forgot the name. I use them for electronic music as I like the fast decay and bass extension they produce for that type of music.
  
  
 I will have to at some point try them out with games to see how they sound since I usually rely on my Sound Blaster Titanium HD CMSS for HRTF in 7.1 games.


----------



## darinf

paradigm said:


> Thanks a bunch Darin for answering my questions. I wasn't aware of the gamer preset situation and thought it was a special Low latency mode for 7.1 audio with games. With that being said how bad is the latency with the newest version of OFYH such as do you noticed the audio latency not matching up with the game sound actions? .
> 
> On my rig I was still using the software version from 11 months ago which had double the latency then your newer version which had a much quicker more efficient processing engine and was also louder. I own 3 audio Presets:
> 
> ...


 
 With the low latency engine, the latency can get down to 30ms, but on most systems, it's probably higher than that and get as high as 90ms.
  
 For gaming, based on the presets you own, I would recommend the Genelec preset. It's a well damped room that doesn't have a lot of room interaction/reverberation. But definitely try the two 7.1 presets you own. The latency should be the same for all of them.
  
 -Darin


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## DanWhite

Okay I usually just lurk, but I wanted to make an account so I could chime in on this one. A few weeks ago I was searching around for some kind of software that could do the virtual surround thing and found this thread. Never heard of OOYH before and thought it was scam software claiming to emulate high end surround systems, I tried it anyway. First impression was that its kind of a shoddy piece of software. Was odd to install at least on my pc, requiring me to jump through some hoops to correct an error. It doesn't look very pretty either, I had low expectations.
  
 When I actually got OOYH running and tried it for the first time I actually tried to lower the volume on my speakers because I legit thought the sound was coming from them. Once I realized the volume wasn't going down I pulled off my cans and couldn't believe it! The sound actually seems to be coming from OUT OF YOUR HEAD! That was cool, and it keeps happening to me too. There's not many things that make me want to go back through my music library and listen to all of my music again, but this is like getting a new sound system or being at a live location listening to music. Its a different and refreshing as hell experience. I spent weeks flipping through my music with the different virtual systems available. The software was sitting on my computer in a temp folder ready to be deleted but I just couldn't do it. Finally I broke down decided to go ahead and buy a license because its just too good.
  
 So this is one of those weird hidden gems no ones heard of but are totally worth the money basically. Also Mr. Fong is really great at the customer service and will answer you questions personally. This is one of those things that, if people knew about it, it would be used by everyone. Quad ESL speakers are my bae + Egyptian Theater (wish I could afford to buy it) 
  
 One thing though, please for the love of god let me use OOYH on my other computers.


----------



## darinf

danwhite said:


> Okay I usually just lurk, but I wanted to make an account so I could chime in on this one. A few weeks ago I was searching around for some kind of software that could do the virtual surround thing and found this thread. Never heard of OOYH before and thought it was scam software claiming to emulate high end surround systems, I tried it anyway. First impression was that its kind of a shoddy piece of software. Was odd to install at least on my pc, requiring me to jump through some hoops to correct an error. It doesn't look very pretty either, I had low expectations.
> 
> When I actually got OOYH running and tried it for the first time I actually tried to lower the volume on my speakers because I legit thought the sound was coming from them. Once I realized the volume wasn't going down I pulled off my cans and couldn't believe it! The sound actually seems to be coming from OUT OF YOUR HEAD! That was cool, and it keeps happening to me too. There's not many things that make me want to go back through my music library and listen to all of my music again, but this is like getting a new sound system or being at a live location listening to music. Its a different and refreshing as hell experience. I spent weeks flipping through my music with the different virtual systems available. The software was sitting on my computer in a temp folder ready to be deleted but I just couldn't do it. Finally I broke down decided to go ahead and buy a license because its just too good.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @DanWhite,
  
 Thanks for posting your impressions. Nice first post...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Yes, as I have said before, designing and programming user interfaces is not my forte. But given our limited resources, we wanted to spend the time improving the Out Of Your Head processing engine vs. hiring a real UX designer and programmer. Hopefully someday we can dedicate more resources to UX. I know it's important and would probably lead to more sales.
  
 But glad you liked the sound from Out Of Your Head.
  
 With regard to multiple computers. While you're right, an Out Of Your Head license can be used on only one computer, you don't have to buy a full license for additional computers. Using your same e-mail address on another computer, you can license multiple additional computers for the cost of a speaker preset license ($25), rather than buying a full ($150) license. So, you can license additional computers for $25 each.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## esimms86

I'll be attending my first CanJam in NY on Saturday and I've secured a slot to check out the Smyth Realiser A16 and also have a PRIR made. I also have an A16 on order via the Smyth Kickstarter campaign. As Smyth will be producing PRIRs at CanJam using an Atmos setup, I was curious to know if an Atmos PRIR could be used to make a personalized OOYH preset for listening via laptop and Chord Mojo when on the go. Thanks.

Esau


----------



## darinf

esimms86 said:


> I'll be attending my first CanJam in NY on Saturday and I've secured a slot to check out the Smyth Realiser A16 and also have a PRIR made. I also have an A16 on order via the Smyth Kickstarter campaign. As Smyth will be producing PRIRs at CanJam using an Atmos setup, I was curious to know if an Atmos PRIR could be used to make a personalized OOYH preset for listening via laptop and Chord Mojo when on the go. Thanks.
> 
> Esau


 
 Hi @esimms86 ,
  
 Thanks for posting. Too bad we won't be attending CanJam NYC. But we will be offering a "show special" for everyone even if they don't make it to NYC. Follow us to be notified about the special.
  
 Unless the PRIR files from the A16 are somehow compatible with the Realiser A8 (which I assume they're not), then we will not be able to convert Reliser A16 measurement files for use with Out Of Your Head until after the A16 is released to the public. 
 We can still convert any Realiser A8 measurement files to use with Out Of Your Head though.
  
 Also, Out Of Your Head does not currently support more than 8 channels of audio. We are planning on supporting 16 or more channels in the future. But for now, 7.1 is the maximum. 
  
 Thanks,
 Darin


----------



## Sarnia

darinf said:


> Hi @esimms86
> ,
> 
> Thanks for posting. Too bad we won't be attending CanJam NYC. But we will be offering a "show special" for everyone even if they don't make it to NYC. Follow us to be notified about the special.



Damn, and I just bought Out of Your Head ☺️. Ah well, happy to support innovation like this. 

With regards to latency, is it the same for the gaming 7.1 profile as the rest?


----------



## darinf

sarnia said:


> Damn, and I just bought Out of Your Head ☺️. Ah well, happy to support innovation like this.
> 
> With regards to latency, is it the same for the gaming 7.1 profile as the rest?


 
 Hi @Sarnia,
 Thanks for your purchase. (We also have a show special on additional speaker presets.)
  
 The latency is the same for all speaker presets. The "Gaming Version" is no different. It's just a way for people to use Out Of Your Head for only $25 if they don't care about using any of the other speaker presets.
  
 -Darin


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## kilspeed

Hello!
  
 I just downloaded the out of your head trial after trying the online demo (which absolutely blew me away).
  
 I can't get it to work with my AKG N90Q though, which is connected through USB. The AKG N90Q doesn't show up in your application under 'output audio devices'
  
 Is there any way I can fix this?


----------



## darinf

kilspeed said:


> Hello!
> 
> I just downloaded the out of your head trial after trying the online demo (which absolutely blew me away).
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @kilspeed ,
  
 Thanks for downloading the Out Of Your Head trial.
  
 I assume you are on Windows. Which version of Windows are you using?
  
 In the Windows\Control Panel\Sound\Playback Devices, do you see the AKG N90Q headphones listed? (I assume you do and assume that's how you play audio through the headphones in Windows?)
  
 Are there any drivers required to use the AKG headphones via USB?
  
 I have not tested the AKG N90Q headphones with Out Of Your Head.
  
 In general, in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, the Output Device list should have the same list of devices you seen in the Windows\Control Panel\Sound\Playback Devices that are active.
  
 Another thought: in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, it only lists all the Windows output devices that are active when Out Of Your Head is launched. If you plug in your AKG N90Q's or any DAC after Out Of Your Head is running, Out Of Your Head does not update the output device list.
  
 If you plug in a new audio output device, you have to exit and relaunch Out Of Your Head to see the newly connected device in the Output Devices list.
  
 Let me know if you have any other questions.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## kilspeed

Thanks for your reply!
  
 I unplugged my N90Q, closed the application, plugged the N90Q back in, opened the application again and now it seems to work. Thanks again!


----------



## darinf

Just a quick note:
 Now that Roon 1.3 is available, they have redone their output engine. So, now Windows users don't need to use the Out Of Your Head 16bit driver or 16bit mode. You can configure Roon to output to the regular 32bit driver like all the other media player apps.
 Another new feature is that Roon supports multi-channel playback! I tested Roon 1.3 with some 5.1 FLAC files and it work great with Out Of Your Head for multi-channel listening.
  
 The best part is that Roon 1.3 is a free upgrade.
  
 -Darin
  
 P.S. Hopefully everyone got our CanJam NYC special...


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## Elric

Hi Darin,  
  
 Do you have an idea when WASAPI will be working on OOYH again?  
  
 Thank You (and thank you for a wonderful product too  )


----------



## darinf

elric said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> Do you have an idea when WASAPI will be working on OOYH again?
> 
> Thank You (and thank you for a wonderful product too  )


 
 Hi @Elric ,
  
 As far as I know, WASAPI has always worked and has never stopped working. (I just tried it with the latest version of Out Of Your Head and JRiver.)
  
 Here's a post on using WASAPI with JRiver:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/30#post_9989538
  
 But basically to use WASAPI, you have to make sure your media player app resamples everything to 48KHz/32bit audio. 
  
 -Darin


----------



## Elric

darinf said:


> Hi @Elric ,
> 
> As far as I know, WASAPI has always worked and has never stopped working. (I just tried it with the latest version of Out Of Your Head and JRiver.)
> 
> ...


 
 Well I feel special now... upmix to 7.1... I missed that step... 
  
 Now I can have my music playing in exclusive mode, and let my wife log into her acct on the computer, and still have my music playing at the same time 
  
 *EDIT* ok I was wrong about letting her log in and keep my music playing... ahh well.  but now I have WASAPI working.
  
  
 Thank you so much @darinf


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Just got ooyh with the aix speaker set. What's another set/speaker system that's popular for its surround sound prowess as well as quality?


----------



## RitzyBusiness

In the process of testing the gamer preset, clarity seems significantly better then Razer surround as is. All goes well i'de definitely get the gamer version, in fact the pricing on it is an absolute steal if by end of trial I feel the same. 
  
 (edit: Changing all the inputs to +6db adds a bit of the oomph that is lost from normal 2.0 or bypassing effects.  Left and Right channels can benefit from being tweaked for crunchier audio since in some games they are used like a center channel in coding despite a center channel existing for other sounds.  In particular when the decibel levels are matched such as shooting a gun sounds a bit for distant in the division when outputs in L/R where Reloading sounds find which is Center channel)
  
 That said the other presets are nice, but the license fee is overkill just to have the privileged of spending more money to own them. I think that alone would scare people away from delving deeper then the gamer preset. (the acoustic zen version seems a bit more engaging for example, where the game mode lacks a bit of oomph just testing it on music)


----------



## Nec3

Quite loving the Italian Speakers.
 There's a sub-bass lift and a thinner mids presentation which IMO fits the Sennheiser HD600.
 Coming in second I'd vote for the Revel Ultima as it has a nice wide frontal presentation but the bass is tight and not as boomy compared to Italian speakers.
 Cello speakers probably has the cleanest presentation but it has a large soundstage.

 The delay in the gaming preset is slightly too slow (which sounds something like 90ms), games such as counterstrike global offensive offers an HRTF audio option which is better. However the gaming preset does beat the Razer Surround software if anyone's still interested in having a wider soundstage presentation.
  
 The question for me is whether the OOYH is worth buying at $150... No. If I could buy each preset for $25 and not have the base fee of $150, I would have bought it an hour ago.


----------



## R0blo

nec3 said:


> Quite loving the Italian Speakers.
> There's a sub-bass lift and a thinner mids presentation which IMO fits the Sennheiser HD600.
> Coming in second I'd vote for the Revel Ultima as it has a nice wide frontal presentation but the bass is tight and not as boomy compared to Italian speakers.
> 
> ...





There might be a discount next week for CanJam Socal. There was one for CanJam NYC 2017. At least that's what I'm hoping for, since I missed the last discount.


----------



## Nec3

r0blo said:


> There might be a discount next week for CanJam Socal. There was one for CanJam NYC 2017. At least that's what I'm hoping for, since I missed the last discount.


 
 Thanks for the reply, do you happen to know if it's an in-house discount or will it be announced here that there will be a discount?


----------



## darinf

nec3 said:


> Quite loving the Italian Speakers.
> There's a sub-bass lift and a thinner mids presentation which IMO fits the Sennheiser HD600.
> Coming in second I'd vote for the Revel Ultima as it has a nice wide frontal presentation but the bass is tight and not as boomy compared to Italian speakers.
> Cello speakers probably has the cleanest presentation but it has a large soundstage.
> ...


 
  
 Hi @Nec3
 Thanks for posting your impressions.
  
 On Windows, the latency for all the presets is about the same since the processing engine is the same for all presets. The latency can be anywhere between 30ms and 100ms depending on the computer.
  
 Also, people can buy just the gaming preset for $25. But for all the other presets, yes, the cost is $150 which comes with one preset and then $25 for each additional preset.
  
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

nec3 said:


> Thanks for the reply, do you happen to know if it's an in-house discount or will it be announced here that there will be a discount?


 
 Generally for the shows we exhibit, we have a show special which is an Out Of Your Head license for 50% off or all the presets for $300. This deal is available only at the show.
  
 Since we were unable to attend CanJam NYC, for the first time, we opened the "show special" up to everyone.
  
 But since we are exhibiting at CanJam SoCal, we try to get people to come to our booth and buy Out Of Your Head, hence the show only special available only at our booth. 
  
 We may have a different special for people who are not attending CanJam SoCal.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Nec3

darinf said:


> Generally for the shows we exhibit, we have a show special which is an Out Of Your Head license for 50% off or all the presets for $300. This deal is available only at the show.
> 
> Since we were unable to attend CanJam NYC, for the first time, we opened the "show special" up to everyone.
> 
> ...


 
 I see, thanks for the info


----------



## Got the Shakes

So I just stumbled upon this software last night and was pretty blown away from the little time I put into the trial. I have a few questions though.

1. My use case would be a mix of games from my Steam library and movies and tv shows that have 5.1 or 7.1 audio tracks. Would the Gamer edition work for me? I understand that I would be losing the option to purchase other presets, but I'd like to jump in cheap (I'm a returning college student, so spending $25 is a bit easier than $150 right now) if I could so I can really put it through its paces and make sure it's something I would find myself using. At this point I care less about presets as I do getting a convincing 7.1 experience which the Gamer edition seems to offer best I can tell.

2. My media content would be played either through Plex or Kodi. Any problems using either of those with OOYH? Any settings I need to mess with to make sure I'm getting the best audio experience with either of them?


----------



## darinf

got the shakes said:


> So I just stumbled upon this software last night and was pretty blown away from the little time I put into the trial. I have a few questions though.
> 
> 1. My use case would be a mix of games from my Steam library and movies and tv shows that have 5.1 or 7.1 audio tracks. Would the Gamer edition work for me? I understand that I would be losing the option to purchase other presets, but I'd like to jump in cheap if I could so I can really put it through its paces and make sure it's something I would find myself using. At this point I care less about presets as I do getting a convincing 7.1 experience which the Gamer edition seems to offer best I can tell.
> 
> 2. My media content would be played either through Plex or Kodi. Any problems using either of those with OOYH? Any settings I need to mess with to make sure I'm getting the best audio experience with either of them?


 
 Hi @Got the Shakes,
 Thanks for posting and checking out Out Of Your Head.
  

The Gamer version will work for any 2.0 to 7.1 channel content. The best way to check if the Gamer Preset will work for you is to download and install Out Of Your Head. Then the first time you select the Gamer Preset, you will be given the option to start your 7-day free trial. During that period you can see if the Gamer preset will work for your case. At any time, you can also listen to all the other presets to compare with the Gamer Preset and see if the other presets work any better. From there you can decide if it's worth the additional cost to use the other presets. You may find that for your ears, some presets may work better than others in terms of a convincing 7.1 experience.
  
For Plex, it should work with its default settings. (TBH, I haven't tried Plex in a long time so I haven't tested Out Of Your Head with the latest version of PLEX.)
 For Kodi, Out Of Your Head works great too. But as outlined in the user's manual, there are a few settings you have to change to make it work with up to 7.1 on KODI. Here's the section in our user's manual regarding KODI:
    



> Basically setup Kodi to decode all content to 2.0 up to 7.1 audio. Also we must set it to down-sample everything to 48kHz sampling rate.
> 
> 
> Go to SYSTEMS Menu
> ...


 
  
 Let us know if you have any trouble getting any app working with Out Of Your Head.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Got the Shakes

darinf said:


> Hi @Got the Shakes,
> Thanks for posting and checking out Out Of Your Head.
> 
> 
> ...


 
@darinf
  
 Thank you so much for the quick response. I did activate the 7 day free trial last night when I was prompted to, but for some reason it was still cutting the audio off after 2 minutes. Will try again when I get home and see if that has changed for some reason, I can't check right now because I don't have my laptop with me. Also thanks for the Kodi settings, I will try those when I get home as well. Like I said all in all I was quite impressed with what I heard in the 10 minutes or so when I was messing around with it. Hopefully the 7 day trial of the Gamer preset is working correctly as I'd like to try watch through a few movies in length and make my purchasing decision based on that. You very likely have me as a new customer as I have been looking for solution to surround sound on my laptop and this seems to work well for my ears.


----------



## darinf

got the shakes said:


> @darinf
> 
> Thank you so much for the quick response. I did activate the 7 day free trial last night when I was prompted to, but for some reason it was still cutting the audio off after 2 minutes. Will try again when I get home and see if that has changed for some reason, I can't check right now because I don't have my laptop with me. Also thanks for the Kodi settings, I will try those when I get home as well. Like I said all in all I was quite impressed with what I heard in the 10 minutes or so when I was messing around with it. Hopefully the 7 day trial of the Gamer preset is working correctly as I'd like to try watch through a few movies in length and make my purchasing decision based on that. You very likely have me as a new customer as I have been looking for solution to surround sound on my laptop and this seems to work well for my ears.


 
 Hi @Got the Shakes,
 When the Gamer Preset is in the 7 day trial mode, the icon to the right of the Gamer Preset should indicate that you are in the 7 day trial period and how many days you have left. If it just shows the same trial mode icon as all the rest of the presets, then it thinks your 7-day trial has expired.
  
 If you e-mail us your computer's UUID value from the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, then we can check your trial license status.
  
 
Launch Out Of Your Head 
double click on any unlicensed preset.
Copy your UUID value from the pop-up window.
Paste it into an e-mail to me and I can check your trial license status.
Send the e-mail to info at fongaudio dot com
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Got the Shakes

darinf said:


> Hi @Got the Shakes,
> When the Gamer Preset is in the 7 day trial mode, the icon to the right of the Gamer Preset should indicate that you are in the 7 day trial period and how many days you have left. If it just shows the same trial mode icon as all the rest of the presets, then it thinks your 7-day trial has expired.
> 
> If you e-mail us your computer's UUID value from the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, then we can check your trial license status.
> ...


 
@darinf
  
 The 7 day trial seems to be working fine. I am having another issue though and that is that when OOYH is running the volume levels to my headphone are quite low. I'm running my laptop though a Schiit Vali 2 hooked up to a pair of Sennheiser HD 6XX. Without OOYH running if I turn the volume up on my amp like 30%-40% that is plenty loud, but with OOYH running I have to turn my amp up double that just to get something that is fairly loud. I tried switching to some lower impedance headphones to test it out and it didn't get much louder.  Is there anything obvious I'm missing or is this just the nature of this kind of software? I really could use a bit more volume to make watching especially movies a bit more immersive. Also, I did check the actual volume on my laptop and OOYH set it to 100% so it's not that either.
  
  
 Edit: I did try boosting all of the channels up to the 6 db limit and that didn't help much either.


----------



## darinf

got the shakes said:


> @darinf
> 
> The 7 day trial seems to be working fine. I am having another issue though and that is that when OOYH is running the volume levels to my headphone are quite low. I'm running my laptop though a Schiit Vali 2 hooked up to a pair of Sennheiser HD 6XX. Without OOYH running if I turn the volume up on my amp like 30%-40% that is plenty loud, but with OOYH running I have to turn my amp up double that just to get something that is fairly loud. I tried switching to some lower impedance headphones to test it out and it didn't get much louder.  Is there anything obvious I'm missing or is this just the nature of this kind of software? I really could use a bit more volume to make watching especially movies a bit more immersive. Also, I did check the actual volume on my laptop and OOYH set it to 100% so it's not that either.


 
 HI @Got the Shakes,
  
 Glad the trial is working.
 Are you using your computer's built-in DAC? Or another DAC?
 For higher output, you can adjust the volume control on the output of your DAC. In Windows, of you right-click on the speaker icon in your system tray, select "Open Volume Mixer".
 When the mixer is open, use the drop down menu under "Device" and select your DAC (instead of the Out Of Your Head virtual audio device.) Then adjust the volume levels of your DAC up (if they are not turned up to 100% already.)
  
 If the output level is still too low, then you can either turn the volume up in your media player app or turn up the output or input levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. (The levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel are auto saved for each preset. So if you change presets, the volume levels will also change.)
  
 The reason the levels are lower through Out Of Your Head is that many people were experiencing clipping especially when listening to 5.1 or 7.1 content. So to avoid clipping, we lowered the default levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. But we also got people complaing that the levels were too low. So, it depends on your system. But if you turn up the input or output levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, you may experience clipping or cracking during loud passages.
  
 Let me know if you have any other problems with the audio levels.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Got the Shakes

darinf said:


> HI @Got the Shakes,
> 
> Glad the trial is working.
> Are you using your computer's built-in DAC? Or another DAC?
> ...


 
@darinf
  
 Built in DAC in my laptop running from the headphone out to the Schiit Vali 2 which is set to high gain. Laptop volume set to 100% and the volume in Plex turned all the way up. I can get levels that are loud enough to watch a movie, but it involves basically having to turn the volume on my amp up to 100%. If that's what I need to do then so be it, but I was just wondering if that was the way Out Of Your Head was designed or if there was something wrong with my setup. Thanks for your reply!


----------



## darinf

got the shakes said:


> @darinf
> 
> Built in DAC in my laptop running from the headphone out to the Schiit Vali 2 which is set to high gain. Laptop volume set to 100% and the volume in Plex turned all the way up. I can get levels that are loud enough to watch a movie, but it involves basically having to turn the volume on my amp up to 100%. If that's what I need to do then so be it, but I was just wondering if that was the way Out Of Your Head was designed or if there was something wrong with my setup. Thanks for your reply!


 
 Are you sure your built-in sound card volume is turned up to 100%? When Out Of Your Head is running, your default system volume is controlling the Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound Card, NOT your built-in DAC.
  
 Other than using the Windows sound mixer trick explained previously, you can also exit Out Of Your Head. Then set the volume for the built-in audio to 100%. Then launch Out Of Your Head again.
  
 I have a Vali 2 and even with my built-in audio output from my computer turned up to 100% and running Out Of Your Head, setting the Vali 2 volume to 100% would blow my ears on even my most inefficient headphones.
  
 It seems to me that somewhere in your setup, there is a volume level that is not set to 100%. 
  
 Are the input and output levels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel set to default or set to +6dB?


----------



## Got the Shakes

darinf said:


> Are you sure your built-in sound card volume is turned up to 100%? When Out Of Your Head is running, your default system volume is controlling the Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound Card, NOT your built-in DAC.
> 
> Other than using the Windows sound mixer trick explained previously, you can also exit Out Of Your Head. Then set the volume for the built-in audio to 100%. Then launch Out Of Your Head again.
> 
> ...


 
@darinf
  
 You nailed it. The problem was that I had the sound on the default Realtek speaker drivers set pretty low (18% which is what I would normally use day to day so the sound isn't too loud out of the cheap built in speakers). Once I raised that before opening Out Of Your Head my low sound issues were solved. Thanks again for all of your help!


----------



## Sound Eq

so i want to ask please I am running the following
  
 windows laptop--- yulong 100 dac/amp---- audeze lcd2====== using jriver as a player
  
 so when I open jriver how will be able to choose out of head to be working with my dac so I can play high res files without down sampling
  
 I am interested to buy it today as there is an online discount


----------



## darinf

sound eq said:


> so i want to ask please I am running the following
> 
> windows laptop--- yulong 100 dac/amp---- audeze lcd2====== using jriver as a player
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @Sound Eq,
 Thanks for posting.
  
 Out Of Your Head currently processes all audio at 48KHz/32bit. So all audio must be downsampled to 48KHz/32bit for processing. Out Of Your Head does not support higher res audio.
  
 If you use Direct Sound, then this is taken care of for you. So in JRiver you can set it to output to the Windows Default Sound Playback device. Then when you launch Out Of Your Head, it automatically switches your Windows Default Playback device to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound card.
  
 Then in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, in the right column, you would select the DAC you want to output the processed audio.
  
 So your signal path is:
  
 Media player app --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound Card --> DAC --> amp --> headphones
  
 I hope that helps explain how Out Of Your Head works. 
  
 -Darin


----------



## Sound Eq

darinf said:


> Hi @Sound Eq,
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> Out Of Your Head currently processes all audio at 48KHz/32bit. So all audio must be downsampled to 48KHz/32bit for processing. Out Of Your Head does not support higher res audio.
> ...


 
 Thanks darin can I ask, lets say i installed on one computer and then decided to install it on another, can i uninstall it from the first computer and then install it on the second. or is it on one computer only


----------



## darinf

sound eq said:


> Thanks darin can I ask, lets say i installed on one computer and then decided to install it on another, can i uninstall it from the first computer and then install it on the second. or is it on one computer only


 
 Hi @Sound Eq,
  
 Unfortunately the way our licensing works, you cannot transfer the license to another computer yourself. The scenario you speak of would require a license server of some kind to manage a "floating" license. For Out Of Your Head we didn't want to require the user to be connected to the internet to run.
  
 So our licenses are tied to a specific computer based on that computer's unique hardware ID (UUID value).
  
 However, to license a 2nd or 3rd computer, you do not need to purchase a full, $149 license for each computer. You can install Out Of Your Head on the 2nd computer and just purchase a speaker preset license from that computer as long as you use the same e-mail address in the pop-up window and to login to our online store.
  
 So essentially to license a 2nd computer with one preset, the cost is $25. Then you don't have to worry about installing and uninstalling every time you want to use the other computer.
  
 Another note, if you ever change your hardware or get a new computer, you can e-mail us your new UUID value from the new computer and we can transfer your license to work with the new computer and deactivate your old license. 
  
 I hope that's clearer.
  
 -Darin


----------



## Sound Eq

darinf said:


> Hi @Sound Eq,
> 
> Unfortunately the way our licensing works, you cannot transfer the license to another computer yourself. The scenario you speak of would require a license server of some kind to manage a "floating" license. For Out Of Your Head we didn't want to require the user to be connected to the internet to run.
> 
> ...


 
 can i ask how can i know what each preset sounds like before purchasing
  
 also I assume if i buy today I will buy it for 99 usd per the online offer with discount code  am I right


----------



## Got the Shakes

sound eq said:


> can i ask how can i know what each preset sounds like before purchasing
> 
> also I assume if i buy today I will buy it for 99 usd per the online offer with discount code  am I right


 
 Download the trial version. It gives you access to all of the presets available with the restriction that it only lets you listen for 2 minutes at a time. You can test them all out before you buy the full version to see which preset you want or if there are additional ones you want to purchase.


----------



## darinf

sound eq said:


> can i ask how can i know what each preset sounds like before purchasing
> 
> also I assume if i buy today I will buy it for 99 usd per the online offer with discount code  am I right


 
 When you download the trial version from our website, it will install all the speaker presets.
 In trial mode, you can listen/try each preset for 2 minutes at a time. After two minutes, the sound will stop and a window will pop-up to purchase a license.
  
 However the 2 minute timer is reset every time you switch presets, so if you switch presets before the two minute timer is up, then the window will not pop-up and the sound will not stop.
  
 Also, the first preset, the Gamer Preset, will give you a one time 7-day trial. This way you can test Out Of Your Head with games more easily. After the 7 days, it reverts back to regular trial mode with the 2 minute timer.
  
 The trial mode never expires on any of the presets, so even if you buy a preset license, all the other presets are still there for you to try.
  
 Yes, if you buy today and use the coupon code, then your cost for an Out Of Your Head license with one preset of your choice is $99.
  
 Here's the post which lists our CanJam SoCal show specials: http://www.head-fi.org/t/822835/canjam-socal-2017-april-8-9-2017/420#post_13402087
  
 -Darin


----------



## Sound Eq

darinf said:


> When you download the trial version from our website, it will install all the speaker presets.
> In trial mode, you can listen/try each preset for 2 minutes at a time. After two minutes, the sound will stop and a window will pop-up to purchase a license.
> 
> However the 2 minute timer is reset every time you switch presets, so if you switch presets before the two minute timer is up, then the window will not pop-up and the sound will not stop.
> ...


 
 can i ask which is the most bought preset


----------



## darinf

sound eq said:


> can i ask which is the most bought preset


 
 While the sales of the presets seems to be somewhat evenly spread out, there are a few presets which seem to be bought the most.
  
 Based on the number of sales, the top three most popular are:
  

Genelec Recording Studio
Revel Ultima
Acoustic Zen


----------



## ray-dude

darinf said:


> While the sales of the presets seems to be somewhat evenly spread out, there are a few presets which seem to be bought the most.
> 
> Based on the number of sales, the top three most popular are:
> 
> ...


 

 Don't forget the B&W 802d3's


----------



## Sarnia

darinf said:


> While the sales of the presets seems to be somewhat evenly spread out, there are a few presets which seem to be bought the most.
> 
> Based on the number of sales, the top three most popular are:
> 
> ...


I don't find that surprising, I find the Genelec preset to be the best for general music listening and games. I've got all of the presets from a previous deal and really enjoy trying different ones out with different tracks.

It also depends which headphones I'm using. I found with the Sony MDR-Z1R some presets had too much bass, but the Genelec preset was perfect. On my Hifiman HE-1000v2 the presets with more powerful bass sound great. Some also seem to have different loudness at the same volume on my amp, so need turned up more.


----------



## Bloos

Where my Magico Q3 lovers at?
*raises hand*


----------



## Sound Eq

i need more help as i am bit confused
  
 here is my setup
  
 computer==== yulong 100 dac/amp====audeze lcd2---------     using jriver as player
  
 now in jriver when i go to tools---options---audio device what shall i choose yulong or out of head , also why are there 2 out of head one has 16 bit waspi and the other no 16 bit, also shall I change playback configuration source format  so that all files play 48khz in jriver . 
 Now on the computer playback device shall I choose yulong or out of headalso why are there 2 out of head choices
  
 finally do i open out of head first then I open jriver to listen to music, and should i hear changes in different presets just by having them highlighted


----------



## darinf

sound eq said:


> i need more help as i am bit confused
> 
> here is my setup
> 
> ...


 
 HI @Sound Eq,
  
 No problem.
  
 In JRiver, the best way to configure the audio settings is to go to Tools/Options//Audio/Audio Device and set it to "Default Audio Device [Direct Sound]".
 This way when you launch Out Of Your Head, JRiver will automatically output to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device.
 Then when you exit Out Of Your Head, JRiver will output to whatever device you have selected in Windows Control Panel/Sound/Playback Devices.
  
 Then in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, in the right column, you would select your Yulong DAC/amp as your output device.
  
 So your signal path should be:
  
 JRiver --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> Yulong DAC/amp --> headphones
  
 The reason why there are two Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Devices is that on is 16-bit only. You should never have to use the 16-bit device. (It was originally created for use with ROON from Roon Labs. but  the new version of ROON now supports 24-bit)
  
 It shouldn't matter what order you launch JRiver vs. Out Of Your Head.
  
 But when both are running, play some audio in JRiver.
 Then in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel you should see the green audio level meters moving showing you that audio is being routed properly from JRiver to Out Of Your Head.
 You should then be hearing the processed audio through your Yulong DAC/amp as long as it is selected as the output device in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
  
 As you single-click on each of the speaker presets in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, you should hear a difference in the sound of the virtual speakers and rooms.
 You can also click the Bypass check box so you can hear the sound with and without the Out Of Your Head processing.
  
 We also recommend playing a stereo audio file and muting either the left or right channel by clicking on the Speaker icons for each of the input channels in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
 The reason for doing this is so that you can hear just one virtual speaker at a time. When you play audio just through one "speaker", it's easier for your brain to figure out where the speaker is in front of you. This helps "train" your brain to hear the virtual speaker. It can be a little disconcerting at first since there is no actual speaker in front of you.
  
 However, if you do have some speakers that you can sit in front of (turned off of course!), this can really help your brain believe that the sound is coming from the speakers even though it's not.
  
 Let us know if you need any more help getting Out Of Your Head working on your system.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Fox1977

ramenwithbroth said:


> Where my Magico Q3 lovers at?
> *raises hand*


 
 The one that suits me best is also the Magico Q3 !


----------



## Sound Eq

Great i will give it a try when i am home tonight as yesterday i could not get it to work. I hope i will be able to make it work so i get the discount promo benefit


----------



## Got the Shakes

I'm an AZen Adiago Plus guy myself.


----------



## Bloos

fox1977 said:


> The one that suits me best is also the Magico Q3 !


 
  
 Actually now that I've played around some more with the presets, I'm not so sure anymore... I just can't choose between:
  to my ears, 
    Magico Q3 - most convincing speaker in a medium sized room sound. most presence best with vocals.
    Revel Ultima - for songs that need more soundstage width and depth, sounds like a very large rooms, lots of reverb.
    PBN Audio Sammy - most convincing real life sound, has a lot of soundstage depth, sounds like you're outside or just have minimal wall reflections. Great for movies. Does seem to be quieter than    the others.
  
 Ahh, I don't need them all.. I don't..   
  
 Does anyone have similar thoughts?
 I feel like I'm leaning towards the PBN though.. Any love for the PBN Audio Sammys?


----------



## Got the Shakes

@darinf
  
 I purchased Out Of You Head last week while the sale was going on. I downloaded the license for the preset I chose, and everything was working fine. Today I was trying to watch some of my Plex content and it was cutting the audio and popping up the dialog to purchase the preset that I already purchased last week. In the preset list there is still a little certificate looking icon to the right of the AZen Adagio Plus plus license I chose, so it looks like the program still acknowledges that I licensed it. I've tried restarting Out Of Your Head and that didn't fix it. Any ideas about what I should do? Thanks.


----------



## Bloos

have you tried turning your computer off and on again?


----------



## darinf

got the shakes said:


> @darinf
> 
> I purchased Out Of You Head last week while the sale was going on. I downloaded the license for the preset I chose, and everything was working fine. Today I was trying to watch some of my Plex content and it was cutting the audio and popping up the dialog to purchase the preset that I already purchased last week. In the preset list there is still a little certificate looking icon to the right of the AZen Adagio Plus plus license I chose, so it looks like the program still acknowledges that I licensed it. I've tried restarting Out Of Your Head and that didn't fix it. Any ideas about what I should do? Thanks.


 
 Hi @Got the Shakes,
  
 Thanks for your purchase. Sorry the license is not working.
  
 Recently we have had a couple people who have reported a similar problem. I am not sure if some OS updates have caused some problems.
  
 The others were able to remedy the license problems by rebooting. But sometimes the problem will come back.
  
 I can try regenerating your license file just to make sure that isn't an issue.
  
 Please e-mail me so we can try some other things just in case.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## Got the Shakes

darinf said:


> Hi @Got the Shakes,
> 
> Thanks for your purchase. Sorry the license is not working.
> 
> ...


 
@darinf
  
 Did reboot, that was what I tried right after restarting the program itself. Seemed to work for a little bit, but then the issue started again. I sent you an email just now as you requested.


----------



## tumble

Hi hi!

i've been enjoying the OOYH trial very much, and thinking about which preset I might buy.

But recently it's stopped receiving audio from any source program.

I'm on a Macintosh, running 10.7.5. I mostly use Vox, but I've tried other programs too (e.g. Cog and a variety of non-music programs), and whatever I choose and however I set its outputs and the system's audio output in System Preferences I get no sound through OOYH, and the level indicators in the OOYH control panel show no input (no green).

Any ideas about how to troubleshoot this?

Thank you!


----------



## tumble

P.S. I have tried rebooting the computer, and launching a media player both before and after running OOYH.


----------



## darinf

tumble said:


> Hi hi!
> 
> i've been enjoying the OOYH trial very much, and thinking about which preset I might buy.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @tumble ,
  
 Glad you were enjoying Out Of Your Head. Sorry it's not working now.
  
 Wow, you are using a really old version of OS X... To be honest, I have not tested the latest version of Out Of Your Head with OS X 10.7.
  
 But, in theory it should work.
  
 So, first of all, when Out Of Your Head is running, it should automatically set  the default sound output device to the Out Of Your Head virtual audio device. So, in System Preferences/Sound/Output, the "OOYH(16CH)" device should be selected.
  
 Then when you play audio from your media player, the sound output from the app should go to Out Of Your Head and you should see the audio level meters moving in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
  
 If you don't see any levels when playing audio, then try switching to a different output device in the right column of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, if you have another one. If you are using a DAC, then try switching to "Built-In audio" in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, not in System Preferences/Sound. Or try switching to another speaker preset in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
  
 Another thing to check is to open "Utilities"/"Audio/MIDI Setup". In that interface, click on the OOYH(16CH) device. Then select the Output tab. Make sure that the levels are set to 100% and none of the channels are muted.
 Then, click on your DAC or whatever output device you are using for your headphones. Also check that none of the output channels are muted. (You can adjust the volume to your headphones here too, so don't turn it up to 100%)
  
 If you are still not getting any audio to Out Of Your Head, then it's most likely a configuration issue with your media player. To test that, try playing some audio from iTunes or YouTube or your browser. Those apps always play audio to the default system device (which should be OOYH(16CH) when Out Of Your Head is running.)
  
 Let me know if any of these things help. Or you can e-mail us directly via our contact form and we can help you via e-mail.
  
 Thanks,
 -Darin


----------



## darinf

darinf said:


> Hi @tumble ,
> 
> Glad you were enjoying Out Of Your Head. Sorry it's not working now.
> 
> ...


 
 Just to be clear, the audio signal path should be:
  
 Media player app --> OOYH(16CH) audio device --> DAC (selected in the right column of the Out Of Your Head Control Panel) --> amp --> headphones
  
 -Darin


----------



## tumble

That was quick! I hope you get evenings away from work at least sometimes.

All fixed, thanks to your suggestions. OOYH's output was muted in Audio MIDI Setup. No idea how that happened - I'm _fairly_ sure it's not something I did. It's just possible that it was an errant mouse click I made at some point, but I doubt it, so there might be a bug somewhere. I'll let you know if it happens again.

MacOS 10.7.5 is the last version of MacOS that has anything remotely approaching decent privacy, so I won't be upgrading from that, ever. I guess I'll have to switch to linux or BSD eventually.


----------



## tumble

darinf said:


> Hi @edwardsean
> The other possibility is that for some people IEM's may work better since they at least eliminate the interaction of the sound from headphone drivers with the pinnae. In theory that should eliminate one more variable in the equation. But you would think then that IEM's would always sound better with Out Of Your Head. I don't think that's the case though for everyone.




I find this really interesting. My impression so far (you have a lot more experience than me, of course) is the same: OOYH's spatialisation isn't any better (for me) with IEMs than it is with over-the-pinna headphones. Which is not what I'd expected. (I'm comparing Unique Melody Miracle CIEMs with Stax Lambda Pros, by the way.)


----------



## tumble

P.S. @darinf: I see I didn't explicitly say thank you. Thank you!


----------



## darinf

tumble said:


> That was quick! I hope you get evenings away from work at least sometimes.
> 
> All fixed, thanks to your suggestions. OOYH's output was muted in Audio MIDI Setup. No idea how that happened - I'm _fairly_ sure it's not something I did. It's just possible that it was an errant mouse click I made at some point, but I doubt it, so there might be a bug somewhere. I'll let you know if it happens again.
> 
> MacOS 10.7.5 is the last version of MacOS that has anything remotely approaching decent privacy, so I won't be upgrading from that, ever. I guess I'll have to switch to linux or BSD eventually.


 
 Glad you got it working! Happy to help. I don't sleep much and am in front of my computer way too much!
  


tumble said:


> P.S. @darinf: I see I didn't explicitly say thank you. Thank you!


 
 You're welcome.
  


tumble said:


> I find this really interesting. My impression so far (you have a lot more experience than me, of course) is the same: OOYH's spatialisation isn't any better (for me) with IEMs than it is with over-the-pinna headphones. Which is not what I'd expected. (I'm comparing Unique Melody Miracle CIEMs with Stax Lambda Pros, by the way.)


 
  
 IEM's are tricky. In theory you would think IEM's would provide a more "direct" sound to your eardrums, which it does. But there's something about how open, over-ear headphones can sound, well, more open.
  
 Also there's something about the electrostatic drivers which work well with Out Of Your Head. I think it's the "speed" of the driver that can reproduce all the micro-detail of the sound reflections and pinnae interactions really well. Also, since those Stax headphones are so open, I think it's easier for your brain to believe that you are hearing speakers in a room since you can hear all the other external noises.
  
 I am not familiar with the sound of the Unique Melody IEM's, but when you know that the CIEMs are blocking a lot of the audio from the outside, sometimes your brain doesn't believe that you can be hearing speakers through your sealed CIEMs.
  
 Anyway, everyone hears differently so YMMV with different headphones.
  
 -Darin


----------



## tumble

tumble said:


> All fixed, thanks to your suggestions. OOYH's output was muted in Audio MIDI Setup. No idea how that happened - I'm _fairly_ sure it's not something I did. It's just possible that it was an errant mouse click I made at some point, but I doubt it, so there might be a bug somewhere. I'll let you know if it happens again.




I've just experienced the same problem again, with the same solution, but this time I'm sure I didn't tell Audio MIDI Setup to mute anything. Some other process did. (Am I a process? Well, you know what I mean.) 

This might be worth adding to the Troubleshooting section of the manual. That already mentions Audio MIDI Setup, but it doesn't mention looking to see that nothing is muted ... which you might think would be a no-brainer, but it wasn't for me. When I first experienced this problem, I immediately checked that Audio MIDI Setup had the right routes, but it didn't occur to me to look at the Mute box.


----------



## tumble

darinf said:


> when you know that the CIEMs are blocking a lot of the audio from the outside, sometimes your brain doesn't believe that you can be hearing speakers through your sealed CIEMs.




Very interesting.

And as for electrostatics being wonderful, yes indeed! The two things that make me unhappy in life are rampant cruelty to animals and not enough people having electrostatic headphones.


----------



## darinf

tumble said:


> I've just experienced the same problem again, with the same solution, but this time I'm sure I didn't tell Audio MIDI Setup to mute anything. Some other process did. (Am I a process? Well, you know what I mean.)
> 
> This might be worth adding to the Troubleshooting section of the manual. That already mentions Audio MIDI Setup, but it doesn't mention looking to see that nothing is muted ... which you might think would be a no-brainer, but it wasn't for me. When I first experienced this problem, I immediately checked that Audio MIDI Setup had the right routes, but it didn't occur to me to look at the Mute box.


 
  
 Yes, I should add that to the troubleshooting section of the manual... will do.
  
 Not sure why it would be getting muted. Maybe your media player has some kind of auto mute function? A keyboard shortcut?


----------



## tumble

@darinf: Please get some sleep!


----------



## laserjet6

Hi all, 
I just installed OOYH on a new computer (i7 7700k, z270, Win 10 creators update, x64)

I installed the version 1298c and all seems to be ok, except when I click the green play button under each channel the program freezes and stops. When I open the Sound control panel and click on test under the "configure" options for OOYH it plays the test sound for every channel without problem (the sound seems correct, and the bars move in OOYH). I tried OOYH version 1293 and it does the same. Seems to be an interface problem. 

Does anyone experience the same?
Thanks


----------



## darinf

laserjet6 said:


> Hi all,
> I just installed OOYH on a new computer (i7 7700k, z270, Win 10 creators update, x64)
> 
> I installed the version 1298c and all seems to be ok, except when I click the green play button under each channel the program freezes and stops. When I open the Sound control panel and click on test under the "configure" options for OOYH it plays the test sound for every channel without problem (the sound seems correct, and the bars move in OOYH). I tried OOYH version 1293 and it does the same. Seems to be an interface problem.
> ...


Hi @laserjet6, 
Yes I just notice the other day that with Windows 10 Creators, the green play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel cause Out Of Your Head to crash. Sorry about that. We are looking into a fix. 

For now, as you found, you can use the Windows "Test" audio function instead. 
-Darin


----------



## x7007 (May 3, 2017)

what is the best way to capture the sound from a game using the Asus Strix Raid DLX sound card ?

With what program is the best to capture the multichannel speakers ? I want to record and hear the differences between the Asus Virtual Surround , Atmos , Sonic   and post on youtube so we can compare.

For example if I want to capture using the Virtual Surround of the Asus Strix  and if it's the same as capturing the windows 10 Atmos or Sonic ?

What program does it the best ?

Msi AfterBurner Video Recording - which should be easiest for me to use at the moment
Open Broadcaster Software
ShadowPlay
Action!
Bandicam
Xsplit
D3DGear
Dxtory
Fraps
Use Windows 10 Game Bar

Can you tell me if you hear surround here ?  I tried to video capturing it with Msi AfterBurner with Atmos-Headphones 7.1 enabled.


----------



## darinf

x7007 said:


> what is the best way to capture the sound from a game using the Asus Strix Raid DLX sound card ?
> 
> With what program is the best to capture the multichannel speakers ? I want to record and hear the differences between the Asus Virtual Surround , Atmos , Sonic   and post on youtube so we can compare.
> 
> ...



Hi @x7007 ,
I am not 100% sure what you are asking, but...
If you are talking about recording or capturing the processed audio signal from Out Of Your Head, you can digitally record the processed, two channel output from Out Of Your Head using Audacity.
Here's a link to the instructions for Windows:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/o...surround-simulator.689299/page-3#post-9986088

Let me know if that's what you were asking.
-Darin


----------



## x7007

I understand , thank you for the guide.


So what would be the differences between Out of your head  to Atmos and Sonic ?  would it have different experience for anyone who tried all of them ? any preferences for gaming/movies ? what would be the best virtual surround experience for gaming compare to lets say also the new GSX 1000 and all the others.


----------



## x7007

darinf said:


> Hi @x7007 ,
> I am not 100% sure what you are asking, but...
> If you are talking about recording or capturing the processed audio signal from Out Of Your Head, you can digitally record the processed, two channel output from Out Of Your Head using Audacity.
> Here's a link to the instructions for Windows:
> ...



I understand , thank you for the guide.


So what would be the differences between Out of your head to Atmos and Sonic ? would it have different experience for anyone who tried all of them ? any preferences for gaming/movies ? what would be the best virtual surround experience for gaming compare to lets say also the new GSX 1000 and all the others.


----------



## darinf

x7007 said:


> I understand , thank you for the guide.
> 
> 
> So what would be the differences between Out of your head to Atmos and Sonic ? would it have different experience for anyone who tried all of them ? any preferences for gaming/movies ? what would be the best virtual surround experience for gaming compare to lets say also the new GSX 1000 and all the others.


Hi @x7007 ,
Since as a "Member of the Trade" here on Head-Fi, I am not sure if I can comment on other "competing" products.
But that's why we have a free trial so you can evaluate the differences yourself using your headphones and your gear.

Maybe others who are familiar with Out Of Your Head can chime in instead of me.

I can say that the biggest difference with our technology is that Out Of Your Head processing uses actual measurements of real speakers in real rooms. The realism we achieve is hard to reproduce with a computer generated sound effect. That is why you can hear the differences between different brands of speakers and the acoustics of the room when using Out Of Your Head. It can be roughly compared to the difference between 3D computer animation vs. a video or film of an actual scene. Reality is hard to replicate by computer generation, but not hard to replicate by recording reality.

Most of the virtual surround technologies are computer generated audio effects. Out Of Your Head is not.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## x7007

darinf said:


> Hi @x7007 ,
> Since as a "Member of the Trade" here on Head-Fi, I am not sure if I can comment on other "competing" products.
> But that's why we have a free trial so you can evaluate the differences yourself using your headphones and your gear.
> 
> ...



Thanks,  that's what I wanted to hear xD


----------



## x7007

This program always crashing when I'm trying to playback in the software main menu.


Faulting application name: Out_Of_Your_Head.exe, version: 1.3.16.9180, time stamp: 0x57df7e85
Faulting module name: unknown, version: 0.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x00000000
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x00007ffa291d4000
Faulting process id: 0x231c
Faulting application start time: 0x01d2c505bda67bdd
Faulting application path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Darin Fong Audio\Out Of Your Head\Out_Of_Your_Head.exe
Faulting module path: unknown
Report Id: 64d8adad-9e5d-4023-9feb-12a57fa74cbb
Faulting package full name: 
Faulting package-relative application ID:


----------



## darinf

x7007 said:


> This program always crashing when I'm trying to playback in the software main menu.
> 
> 
> Faulting application name: Out_Of_Your_Head.exe, version: 1.3.16.9180, time stamp: 0x57df7e85
> ...



Hi @x7007 ,
Are you running Windows 10 Creators version?
Are you experiencing the crash when you click on the green "play" buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel?

If so, then yes, there is a bug with Creators version where the Play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel will cause Out Of Your Head to crash. I posted about that earlier in the thread.

Sorry about that bug. We are working on a fix.

In the meantime, please don't use the play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel if you are running Windows 10 Creators version. If you want to send a test tone to each channel, use the "Test" function in the Windows Control Panel\Sound\Playback window.

If that's not the problem, please explain in more detail what is causing the crash. I am not sure exactly what you mean by, "when I'm trying to playback in the software main menu."

Thanks,
-Darin



darinf said:


> Hi @laserjet6,
> Yes I just notice the other day that with Windows 10 Creators, the green play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel cause Out Of Your Head to crash. Sorry about that. We are looking into a fix.
> 
> For now, as you found, you can use the Windows "Test" audio function instead.
> -Darin


----------



## x7007 (May 4, 2017)

darinf said:


> Hi @x7007 ,
> Are you running Windows 10 Creators version?
> Are you experiencing the crash when you click on the green "play" buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel?
> 
> ...




Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  Thank you !  the windows test didn't work till I change from default 32bit 48Khz to any 24 or 16 .  then back to 32bit and it still worked.  as much as I read on the changelog and stuff.  I might missed or forgot about the arrow.  but it works now.

Another question, why is the volume so low ?  when I'm using the normal sound Asus Strix card volume when it's 68 on bar , the volume is very high and it sound great.   when using the virtual out of head with 68 , it's very low .    does it detect my headphones as High Impedance ?  because my headphones are 600 Ohms,  and I think that's why the volume goes low.  how can I change that ?

Also what are the differences between the profiles ?  the game profile suppose to be the best for gaming or should I look for another one with Beyerdynamic DT990 600 ohms Studio headphones ?  I mean it sounds great, but could it be better ?


Any chance it will pass through the sound card or Impedance setting so it will stay 600 ohms ?  or to have this setting in the out of the head settings ?


----------



## x7007 (May 6, 2017)

Guys, which one did you find the best for gaming/movies/music ?  so I would focus on that if you already been through a lot of them,, gaming profile has too much echo.

I liked the BandW B&W D3 speakers profile   which is the last one.

I don't know if it's an issue or if it's how it's suppose to be.

but first the volume is really low even when I'm at the max 100% in windows + 6 db in the out of your head main menu. and the game volume is low compare to the normal headphones configuration   Asus Strix Raid DLX  ( High Impedance set ) + Windows 10 Creators Atmos 7.1 Virtual surround enabled     68% in windows and 15% in game is triple loud compared.



second  there is no spatial position. for example in the video I posted in youtube. you can clearly hear the box goes around you and goes far from you .  there is sound depth in the game.     I don't hear that with Out of your head  , the sound stays the same no matter where I'm in the game by position it's not getting weaker when I'm far or higher when I'm nearer .  and the position when I move 180 degrees stays almost the same.

I wish you could do it or add spatial surround system like the Atmos or other virtual surround because it has surround depth to it.


----------



## x7007

The discount coupon doesn't work anymore..

can someone help me I want to buy the software for $99 + 1 present ...  

please someone


----------



## darinf

x7007 said:


> Guys, which one did you find the best for gaming/movies/music ?  so I would focus on that if you already been through a lot of them,, gaming profile has too much echo.
> 
> I liked the BandW B&W D3 speakers profile   which is the last one.
> 
> ...



Hi @x7007 ,
Sorry about not responding sooner. But I did respond to your e-mail. (The notifications are a little flakey here.)

First, whenever running Out Of Your Head , you must completely disable any other virtualization software like Atmos Virtual Surround, Razer, Dolby Headphone, etc. Those are all trying to do similar things and cannot be compounded "on top" of each other. The effect will sound completely weird.

That clip you posted is already processed with Atmos virtualization for headphones. So you cannot use it with Out Of Your Head enabled. Again, you are compounding virtualization processing on top of each other. It's pre-rendered with headphone processing already so it's 2 channel binaural audio in the YouTube video you posted. It will not work with Out Of Your Head. You need an original multi-channel source.

As far as the volume level goes, many people experience clipping when playing loud music or a loud movie. So the default input and output levels in Out Of Your Head is lower. It will not be the same level as without Out Of Your Head. The main reason is that each channel on the output is the sum of all the sound coming from all channels. So your left ear is getting all the sound your left ear would hear if you in a room with 8 speakers. That can add up significantly especially during an explosion in a movie or similar. We do not do any compression or limiting unlike other systems. So the dynamic range can be huge.

But, if the output level is too low, the best place to turn up the level is on your DAC or amp. So in your case, you mention that you have your DAC (Asus Strix) set at 68%. While this may be fine for listening without Out Of Your Head, with Out Of Your Head, turn up the volume on your DAC until you get acceptable levels. Yes, you will have to turn it back down when you exit Out Of Your Head. This method is better than turning all the levels up in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel since you could get clipping.

Also, in the game you can turn up the volume past 15% but back it down if you hear clipping in Out Of Your Head.



x7007 said:


> The discount coupon doesn't work anymore..
> 
> can someone help me I want to buy the software for $99 + 1 present ...
> 
> please someone



The specials we run are typically during trade shows. You can subscribe to our newsletter to be notified of any specials or sales.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## darinf

FYI, I will be this week's guest on Scott Wilkinson's Home Theater Geeks show tomorrow (5/18) live at 2:00pm PST. During the live show, you can also go to their chat room and ask questions if you want.

Hope to "see" you there!
-Darin


----------



## darinf

For those of you on Windows Creator's version, there was a bug in the Out Of Your Head software. The green "play" buttons for playing test audio in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel caused Out Of Your Head to crash.

We have fixed that bug in the latest release of Out Of Your Head. You can upgrade to the latest version by downloading and installing the free trial from our website.
You can read the Windows Out Of Your Head release notes here.

Another note, when Windows does a major Windows upgrade, sometimes it will reset the audio configuration of the Out Of Your Head VIrtual Audio device. If that happens, Out Of Your Head can sound very distorted like static or crackling.
To solve this, there are two things to check with regard to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device.
You can follow the steps here: Out Of Your Head Driver Speaker Setup
And here: Work Around for Out Of Your Head “OOYH Output Error” Bug
(Even though you may not have the "Output Error" message, switching the sampling rate from 32-bit to 24-bit and back to 32-bit seems to help fix the distortion issues.)

Contact us via e-mail or our contact form if you have any questions or problems with the updated version.

-Darin


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## Kev K (Jun 2, 2017)

I've spent hours reading about OOYH, but I'm still unclear on one point. Can OOYH replace Dolby Headphone, et. al.? Can OOYH take, as its input, a raw, untampered audio track in the DTS (etc.) format?

I think I'm asking is if OOYH _decodes_ multi-channel audio formats.

My video player and its internal audio renderer offers the option to "pass-through" DTS, TrueHD, etc., and send it via exclusive-mode WASAPI to a device over S/PDIF or HDMI. I would want to send it to the OOYH driver instead.


----------



## darinf

Kev K said:


> I've spent hours reading about OOYH, but I'm still unclear on one point. Can OOYH replace Dolby Headphone, et. al.? Can OOYH take, as its input, a raw, untampered audio track in the DTS (etc.) format?
> 
> I think I'm asking is if OOYH _decodes_ multi-channel audio formats.
> 
> My video player and its internal audio renderer offers the option to "pass-through" DTS, TrueHD, etc., and send it via exclusive-mode WASAPI to a device over S/PDIF or HDMI. I would want to send it to the OOYH driver instead.


Hi @Kev K ,
Out Of Your Head does have the same function as Dolby Headphone and other virtual surround software.
However, Out Of Your Head accepts decoded, discrete, PCM audio from 2 to 8 channels. Out Of Your Head requires the media player software or game to decode any encoded multi-channel formats like Dolby or DTS. Most, if not all media players will do the decoding. Tehn the raw PCM audio is fed to Out Of Your Head for processing, resulting in a 2 channel signal for your headphones.

So, just to be clear, Out Of Your Head does not decode. But it does not need to since the media player will do that for you.

From your video player, you would not use the "pass-through" option. You would just set your media player to output to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device. Your media player will see the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device as a 7.1 compatible sound card and decode the multi-channel content and then send the decoded PCM to Out Of Your Head. You do not need to use WASAPI. You can use Direct Sound. This way you don't have to worry about doing any sample rate conversion for Out Of Your Head.

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have any other questions.
-Darin


----------



## Kev K

Thank you! It's exactly what I needed to know. I'm looking forward to buying and enjoying it.


----------



## BeatsWork

Interesting read and tantalizing possibilities https://developer.nvidia.com/vrworks-audio-sdk-depth?ncid=em-ded-vrnr-14888

@darinf - Time to start playing with Dev kit


----------



## darinf

BeatsWork said:


> Interesting read and tantalizing possibilities https://developer.nvidia.com/vrworks-audio-sdk-depth?ncid=em-ded-vrnr-14888
> 
> @darinf - Time to start playing with Dev kit


Hi @BeatsWork ,
Thanks for posting. Interesting technology for sure. However, I am not sure if it can be used with Out Of Your Head.

I always use the analogy of CGI or real-time 3D graphics rendering in games vs. videotaping a real scene. While there are amazing real-time rendering engines, even a real-time ray-tracing engine can only get close to a video recording of a real scene, we can fairly easily tell the difference between computer rendered graphics vs. a recording of a real scene.

The same analogy applies for real-time 3D audio rendering vs. Out Of Your Head. Out Of Your Head is based on "recording" or capturing a real environment vs. computer rendered audio. Like real-time 3D graphics, it it pretty obvious which is a "recording" of a real scene vs. a computer generated one.

Obviously real-time computer generated video or audio has huge advantages in terms of flexibility, but the trade-off is realism. 

Maybe the NVidia technology can be used simply as a high powered Out Of Your Head rendering engine. We will take a look for sure.

-Darin


----------



## Takeanidea

For those of you who have purchased or trialled out of your head software and are wondering as to what the difference might be between this and the Smyth Realiser, I have now listened to both. I went to Can Jam London on Sunday primarily to do the demo. 
The difference between the 2 are light years apart. The Smyth Realiser does not sound hollow and compressed , like many of the pre sets on OOYH. It is virtually indistinguishable from the speakers it sampled. The experience was the same as being at in a normal room listening to a top class speaker system.
For those of you who are worried that the Smyth Realiser has some of the drawbacks of the OOYH software and are reluctant to take that sort of financial risk , there is absolutely no need to be.
I believe that both OOYH and Smyth Realiser use exactly the same technology. The difference in realism from getting the real thing as opposed to software that uses analogue samples from it is startling


----------



## castleofargh

one of the differences is simply that the calibration on the realiser is done on your own head. so of course it is more likely to work for you. on the other hand OOYH relies on a preset standard that will work great for some people, work well for most, and will just not hit the sweet spot for those with heads/bodies that are too far away from the target(the reason why using the free trial makes so much sense). it's like a lefty using a right handed pair of scissors. it can feel really wrong on some pairs, but you can't blame the scissors or the guy for being a lefty. that's just how it is with standardized stuff.


----------



## Takeanidea

I take it you've heard both? What was the better one for you? The analogue recordings from a Smyth Realiser A8 or an uncompressed exact match of your own ears and headphones?


----------



## castleofargh

I'm waiting for my A16, jumped on it as soon as I learned about the kickstarter campaign. OOYH doesn't have the same functionalities and clearly not the same cost!!! it feels a little unfair to put them against each other just because room simulation is such a deserted business(although VR googles have forced a few people to wake up about it).  
my experience with OOYH wasn't good and I expected it. I hoped it would work because it would have been so cool, but expected problems. I also don't get good results from binaural recordings. and almost any standard based on the average human simply doesn't "do it" for me. it's the sad conclusion I've had to reach over years of trying everything I could. the very obvious thing about me not being standard is my size and the size of my skull, maybe other aspects of me related to audio are non standard, but I guess this is already enough to lend me a VIP sit in the human audio minority club. 
but some people get great results with OOYH, just like some people are amazed by some binaural albums recorded a specific way, crossfeed settings, or even some surround effects. anything where those guys are lucky to have a body and headphone real close to what the system was targeting, and they get the experience as it was intended. lucky bstards.^_^ 
my point in the post above is that my or your experience of OOYH don't necessarily reflect the experience of other users with other bodies and headphones. I'm the unlucky lefty in my scissor analogy, so I really need customized simulation like the Realiser does and is so far, alone to do. so yes it's a superior solution for room simulation, a customized one. but it's hard to forget the price difference.


----------



## darinf

Thanks to @Takeanidea and @castleofargh for your posts. Great discussion. And thanks for your responses, @castleofargh . You are spot on in your responses. And I am glad that even though Out Of Your Head didn't work for you, you recognize that it doesn't mean that Out Of Your Head will not work for anyone.

Out Of Your Head is an interesting product since two people can have completely different impressions of it and both people are right!

I agree with both of you for the most part. There is no question that a custom measurement using your own HRTF will always yield a better result. Just like most things, if you have the resources and opportunity to do whatever it takes to get the best quality, then that's great! But not everyone can do that. So Out Of Your Head offers a possible solution that is more accessible for people. It's not perfect by any stretch. I'll be the first to admit that.

I also think that testing the system in the same room with the speakers that were measured can help make the overall impression MUCH better since you brain has all the real visual and audio cues to help reinforce the effect. When we do custom measurements for customers, we do an A/B comparison between the headphones and the speakers and almost all of the time, the customer cannot tell the difference using Out Of Your Head vs. the real speakers.

But all I want people to know is that regardless of what other people say, just give it a try for yourself with your ears and your headphone system. It's rare in the audiophile universe that you can try a product for yourself for free with relatively little effort rather than relying on reviews and impressions from others. 

If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. But for many of our satisfied customers, it works well enough for them to purchase Out Of Your Head.

TLDR: YMMV
But it's easy enough to test for yourself.
-Darin


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## Nec3

I finally purchased the OOYH software and chose Quad ESL Speakers. Quad ESL Speakers go very well with Sennheiser HD600's because the sub-bass lift is so huge that I have to adjust the settings all the way down to -22db. The setting also reduces treble and separates the sub-bass from the rest of the spectrum and this definitely feeds my basshead needs. Originally I was going to buy the JVC SZ-2000 for my bass needs but OOYH seemed much better (and cheaper).

My only problem with OOYH is that 25% of the time there's always clipping and it sounds like crackling speakers when the source is slightly above -10db. I have to reset the software a good 2-3 times to relieve the clipping.


----------



## Bloos

I find that if I change speakers presets a few times (5-10 times) quickly before switching back to my normal setting, this be usually solves the "crackling" issue. 
Also, restarting whatever program's playing the audio sometimes helps


----------



## Fox1977

I also face this problem and it's quite annoying... I often have to close and restart OOYH 3-4 times before all the crackling noises disappear. I have no idea why it happens (and sometimes it works fine from the first attempt)


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## tumble (Aug 11, 2017)

I have the same problem.  Also, sometimes OOYH doesn't process sound at all — when that happens to me I can fix it by re-setting its volume in Audio Midi Setup (this is on a Macintosh), but having to do that is a hassle.  (And doesn't fix the crackling issue.)

I don't want to discourage anybody from buying this, because it's SO much fun, but they need to know what they're getting.  It's certainly not something you should expect to buy, set and forget.

I really wish Darin would re-write this as an Audio Unit.  I know it's not going to happen because he wants to keep the DRM on it.


----------



## phoenixdogfan (Aug 13, 2017)

castleofargh said:


> I'm waiting for my A16, jumped on it as soon as I learned about the kickstarter campaign. OOYH doesn't have the same functionalities and clearly not the same cost!!! it feels a little unfair to put them against each other just because room simulation is such a deserted business(although VR googles have forced a few people to wake up about it).
> my experience with OOYH wasn't good and I expected it. I hoped it would work because it would have been so cool, but expected problems. I also don't get good results from binaural recordings. and almost any standard based on the average human simply doesn't "do it" for me. it's the sad conclusion I've had to reach over years of trying everything I could. the very obvious thing about me not being standard is my size and the size of my skull, maybe other aspects of me related to audio are non standard, but I guess this is already enough to lend me a VIP sit in the human audio minority club.
> but some people get great results with OOYH, just like some people are amazed by some binaural albums recorded a specific way, crossfeed settings, or even some surround effects. anything where those guys are lucky to have a body and headphone real close to what the system was targeting, and they get the experience as it was intended. lucky bstards.^_^
> my point in the post above is that my or your experience of OOYH don't necessarily reflect the experience of other users with other bodies and headphones. I'm the unlucky lefty in my scissor analogy, so I really need customized simulation like the Realiser does and is so far, alone to do. so yes it's a superior solution for room simulation, a customized one. but it's hard to forget the price difference.


You're completely correct.  I was reading this and nodding my head.  For me, there are 3 or 4 settings that work and two that work particularly well.  I'm certain the A16 and/or custom measurements from Darrin will work even better, but I can say as an audiophile of 45 years who has had some legendary gear in his living room and listened to it on a daily basis, that the settings that I find working well sound an awful lot like the high end audio  coming out of speaker systems, and for what I paid for it, that makes it a real bargain.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Another interesting tid bit regarding HRTF which I found in the Wikipedia is the possibility of adapting to presets recorded using another person's HRTF.  Here's the quote:

"If another person's ears were substituted, the individual would not immediately be able to localize sound, as the patterns of enhancement and cancellation would be different from those patterns the person's auditory system is used to. However, after some weeks, the auditory system would adapt to the new head-related transfer function."

If you  do any reading on the human brain and how it functions, you will in rapid order learn about a phenomenon called neuroplasticity.  What neuroplasticity means is that the brain is very adaptable.  If for example you were to experience a traumatic injury which damaged or destroyed parts of your visual cortex, another part of your brain could possibly take over and function as the visual cortex and restore your sight.  Medical literature is replete with examples where this kind of thing happens.

Or look at it another way.  When you were 10 years old, your HRTF was different than it is today,  yet somehow you never skipped a beat in using your auditory system to locate sounds because your brain was "plastic" enough to adapt to your changes in head size, ear pinnae, and body shape without missing a beat.  

So is it so implausible to believe that if you find a preset on OOYH that sounds close to speakers performing in a room and you continue listening to it, that your brain will adapt to this new  HRTF and find it provides a convincing rendition?  

I, for one, think not.  Maybe if some of the people who don't find the OOYH initially convincing  would give it a few weeks or so with one presets they kinda like, they might find the software far more compelling than they ever imagined.


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## castleofargh

the difficulty with your scenario is that as humans we'll spend the rest of the day using our own cues, so it's different from being 24/7 with a new set of HRTF. what we'll get used to may be a different situation for the brain instead of the new normal. just like we get used to new headphones up to a point. I think of it like skiing vs walking. we get used to it and it can feel like a very natural way to move at some point, but the brain never confuses it for walking because it's never the only way to move. instead the brain just turns On a switch that says "ski time", it knows what it is instead of being fooled into a new reality. so the degree to which we will "conform" might depend on various elements and also work better for some people.
but yeah brain plasticity is a marvel in itself. full immersion into a new reality is usually dealt with by the brain in a matter of hours(for tainted glass) or weeks(for something like inverting left and right sound).
here is something making and destroying my point all at once ^_^.


----------



## Nec3

Out of your head also works great for gamers btw! I have Foobar set up to output to OOYH, and all the music is pushed back into the background. Game and VOIP volume is the closest in the center stage. It's a really cool 2 layer experience.


----------



## manukmanohar

Anyone here using HE-560 headphones? Would like to hear, which of the options sounded best with OOYH. (with HE-560)


----------



## Elric

Is anyone else having problems with OOYH after the Fall Creator's update?  I have had to re-install it multiple times.  If I try to test it, by pressing one of the play buttons it crashes.  All audio if I get audio out of it is doubled and muffled.


----------



## darinf

Elric said:


> Is anyone else having problems with OOYH after the Fall Creator's update?  I have had to re-install it multiple times.  If I try to test it, by pressing one of the play buttons it crashes.  All audio if I get audio out of it is doubled and muffled.


Hi @Elric ,
Yes, the Windows Creators Update has made a lot of changes to the Windows audio system.

The changes they made broke our audio "test" buttons. (The green play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.) So, please don't use them. Instead you can use the Test function in the Windows Sound Control Panel\Playback Devices.

If the audio doesn't sound right in Out Of Your Head, most likely the speaker configuration needs to be set properly. (Windows Creator install resets the settings in the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device for some reason.)
Even other Windows updates can reset the Out Of Your Head settings.
To fix this, try this:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-driver-speaker-setup/

Then if you still hear distortion, try this (even if you are not getting the output error bug):
https://fongaudio.com/work-around-for-out-of-your-head-ooyh-output-error-bug/

Hopefully that will fix the audio playback problems.

I have tested Out Of Your Head on several Windows systems running Windows Fall Creators update.

-Darin


----------



## Brooko

Hey Darin - do you think there is ever likely to be a Linux version - or is it a bridge too far?

I spend most of my time in Linux now and hardly miss Windows at all.  But I really miss OOYH


----------



## darinf

Brooko said:


> Hey Darin - do you think there is ever likely to be a Linux version - or is it a bridge too far?
> 
> I spend most of my time in Linux now and hardly miss Windows at all.  But I really miss OOYH


We currently don't have any plans for a Linux version unfortunately. But, we are reworking a lot of stuff and it might be relatively easy to port a version over to Linux. No promises though. (I don't even have a Linux machine to use for testing at the moment...)

Sorry I don't have anything solid to tell you about at this point.

What apps do you use for media playback on Linux?

-Darin


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## Brooko

Most of the time I use a paid version of JRiver Media Centre - occasionally Clementine or Amarok.


----------



## Richter Di

I could speak about how annoying the whole right measurement issue was and how many messages Darin Fong and I exchanged until he send me a .lic file which finally worked with all the three presets I bought.
I could also speak about how quickly Darin answered even during weekends. Chapeau!
But I choose to speak about something different.

The Out of Your head software is incredible depended on the headphone you use. The biggest surprise were some old Bose inEars I have since years. I really had to take them out to make sure that the sound wasn't coming from my Laptop. Wow.
So try it with all your headphones before you say they are not working for you.


----------



## Nec3

Richter Di said:


> I could speak about how annoying the whole right measurement issue was and how many messages Darin Fong and I exchanged until he send me a .lic file which finally worked with all the three presets I bought.
> I could also speak about how quickly Darin answered even during weekends. Chapeau!
> But I choose to speak about something different.
> 
> ...



I found sources with good imaging and are relatively flat in frequency response (HD600) to work really nicely with OOYH. I bought the Quad ESL speaker setting, I just wanted a bigger laid back sound for background music.

When you say Bose, do you mean the Bose IE2? If you did, which setting did you pick?


----------



## musicreo

Richter Di said:


> The Out of Your head software is incredible depended on the headphone you use.


I think OOYH don't use any headphone compensation? Then this effect is not suprising.


Richter Di said:


> The biggest surprise were some old Bose inEars I have since years. I really had to take them out to make sure that the sound wasn't coming from my Laptop. Wow..



For earbuds or inEars the headphone related transfer function is not so pronounced as for open full size headphones. Usually for headphones like for example  the AKG 701 or HD600 compensation filters are more important.


----------



## Richter Di

darinf said:


> Hi @Elric ,
> Yes, the Windows Creators Update has made a lot of changes to the Windows audio system.
> 
> The changes they made broke our audio "test" buttons. (The green play buttons in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.) So, please don't use them. Instead you can use the Test function in the Windows Sound Control Panel\Playback Devices.
> ...



Oh this Windows Update killed me. I had to re-install the complete Out Of Your Head before anything worked again.


----------



## Happydog

Brooko said:


> Works wonderfully with Foobar.  Just specify output to the OOYH driver.




Thank you very much for that tip.... I tried various combinations with the demo software and other info here in this thread.
It was a bit frustrating with only a few minutes of output and then what the demo version of OOYH does (goes silent without
paid versions of anything).  

What works for me.... 
- Install OOYH software and verify sound output is correctly playing.  I used OOYH in demo mode with my FLAC source and VLC Media Player 
as a test of output using my standard Realtek HD Audio output driver (24 bit 48K sampling).   Note OOYH Virtual Audio Device is present in 
audio devices but just ignore it and use you standard output (Realtek HD in my case).   Verified output from FLAC sources and 
switched several speakers in demo mode.   

- Close down OOYH software

- Setup Foobar first  (don't have OOYH running yet).... 
Menu...File...Preferences....Output....
   DS Speakers  (OOYH - Virtual Audio Device) 

- Startup OOYH and select your Speaker system to demo

- Start Foobar playing your source track

Notes 
- DS Primary - also works fine.   
- DS Realtek - bypasses OOYH completely in my F2K - no effect (plays my FLAC in standard sound).
- WASAPI output doesn't work with OOYH.  
- DS Realtek WASAPI same as DS Realtek - bypasses OOYH completely in F2K (plays my FLAC source in standard sound).

- OOYH Demo software will pop up license message and then will go silent as a filter (F2K shows playing but no sound).  This behavior
is fine except added a layer of confusion for me when setting up OOYH.  

- OOYH sounds fantastic....I have AKG Reference Headphones (K550's) - incredible sound.  It's rather startling actually 
on a number of speaker setups.  I very much appreciate the demo mode.    

- Overall - Amazing!!   ))


----------



## laserjet6 (Nov 23, 2017)

... well, than hurry up, they have a sale ongoing.
I got it a year ago and I don't use my headphones without it anymore. For me its great for gaming and movies.
I wish there was an android version.

@darinf, what are you planning for the next version update and when will we see one?
Also, any chance we will see android version one day?

Thank you


----------



## darinf

Thanks for posting your experience @Happydog !
Actually FooBar will work with Out Of Your Head and WASAPI, but DS is easier.
For WASAPI, you need to enable the MultiResampler in your DSP chain and set it to resample everything to 48KHz.
Then when you select "DSD: WASAPI (push): OOYH Virtual Audio Device), it should work through Out Of Your Head.

But honestly I think just setting the output to "DS: Primary Sound Driver" is the easiest way.

@laserjet6, Yes, our Black Friday sale is going on right now until Monday night! Check our Facebook or Twitter or Instagram posts.
We are still working on upgrading our engine to work better with Windows and Mac. 
After that we will be trying to tackle mobile devices, but we are a LONG way off from that...
-Darin


----------



## asubert

Hi. I am looking for a headphone systeme to watch movies on the big screen when baby is sleeping for my wife and I. I found different option, like SOny headphonem OOYH or dolby headphone.

1) what headphone do you recommend for movie
2) OOYH is it worth the price?
3) how does it compare with SOny HW700?
4) Are the dts x headphone, mainly for gaming any good for movies compare to OOYH?

I did research, but there is not so much info on how to watch movie with surrroound sound and headphone. Info are confusing...

Sorry if it has been already discuss...


----------



## laserjet6

asubert said:


> Hi. I am looking for a headphone ...



Hi Asubert, 
I use OOYH to watch movies at night with headphones and for me it is great. 
I can't compare it to hardware solutions, but I couldn't find a software that would sound as good to me as OOYH. 
I pair it with AKG K701 and ODAC+O2 amplifier, and it sounds absolutely great. 

This is the only solution I tried where I had to put the headphones down to check that the sound is not coming from speakers in the room. 
It was worth the money (I bought it when they had 50% discount, which happens one or twice a year)


----------



## davidland

learn something here, thank you


----------



## Richter Di

I had to de-install and re-install OOYH at least three times in the last couple of weeks. I always ended up with OOYH producing shreeky sounds. No idea why.


----------



## darinf

Richter Di said:


> I had to de-install and re-install OOYH at least three times in the last couple of weeks. I always ended up with OOYH producing shreeky sounds. No idea why.



Hi @Richter Di ,
Generally there is no reason to uninstall and reinstall Out Of Your Head. SOmetimes it can actually cause problems.

Lately, the Windows 10 updates from Microsoft, for whatever reason, can reset the settings on the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device. When Out Of Your Head is installed, the installer sets that device up, but for some reason, Windows 10 can sometimes reset the required settings to something that will not work.

There are two things to check:

First this:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-driver-speaker-setup/

Then if that doesn't fix it, then try this:
https://fongaudio.com/work-around-for-out-of-your-head-ooyh-output-error-bug/

Of course you can always contact me directly if you need tech support.
Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## oppman99

Purchased the software and a few presets during the Black Friday sale.  It’s definitely fun to play around with and gives me the imaging I miss from my speaker rig.  Lately I have been noticing a bit of distortion every few minutes.  I did run into something similar when switching presets in the middle of a song   before I bought the license.  Seems to happen more often if I am using internet so I am thinking it is resource related.  Anyone else notice anything like this?  Just curious if there might be an easy fix.


----------



## darinf

oppman99 said:


> Purchased the software and a few presets during the Black Friday sale.  It’s definitely fun to play around with and gives me the imaging I miss from my speaker rig.  Lately I have been noticing a bit of distortion every few minutes.  I did run into something similar when switching presets in the middle of a song   before I bought the license.  Seems to happen more often if I am using internet so I am thinking it is resource related.  Anyone else notice anything like this?  Just curious if there might be an easy fix.


Hi @oppman99 ,
First, thank you for your purchase!

One thing to try is to make sure your CPU is not set to power down or go into a low power state. In Windows, you can set your power profile to "High Performance". On macOS, I am not sure there's anything you can do.

But on some macOS Sierra/High Sierra systems and some Windows Creators Edition computers, background activity can affect the Out Of Your Head processing engine. It doesn't always seem to be correlated to actual CPU power. 
It can help to disable any background tasks like cloud backups, virus scanning, etc. 

We are working on completely rewriting our processing engine to be more compatible with the latest Mac and Windows versions. I am not sure when we will have something to release. Also the sound quality of the new engine will be exactly the same, so no need to worry about that.

-Darin


----------



## Nec3

darinf said:


> Hi @Richter Di ,
> Generally there is no reason to uninstall and reinstall Out Of Your Head. SOmetimes it can actually cause problems.
> 
> Lately, the Windows 10 updates from Microsoft, for whatever reason, can reset the settings on the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device. When Out Of Your Head is installed, the installer sets that device up, but for some reason, Windows 10 can sometimes reset the required settings to something that will not work.
> ...



I was just having those shrill squeeky noises haha. Your first link with speaker setup worked perfectly.


----------



## Richter Di

darinf said:


> Hi @Richter Di ,
> Generally there is no reason to uninstall and reinstall Out Of Your Head. SOmetimes it can actually cause problems.
> 
> Lately, the Windows 10 updates from Microsoft, for whatever reason, can reset the settings on the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device. When Out Of Your Head is installed, the installer sets that device up, but for some reason, Windows 10 can sometimes reset the required settings to something that will not work.
> ...



I tried to use them, but my Windows laptop with Windows 10 just does not show 7.1 settings, 5.1 is all I get. So tip one doesn’t work and tip 2 does not do the trick. So deinstalling and reinstalling have been so far my only option.


----------



## darinf

Richter Di said:


> I tried to use them, but my Windows laptop with Windows 10 just does not show 7.1 settings, 5.1 is all I get. So tip one doesn’t work and tip 2 does not do the trick. So deinstalling and reinstalling have been so far my only option.


Hmm... That is really strange. I have never seen a system where the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device only shows 5.1 instead of 7.1. I am not sure how that's even possible. But with Windows, anything is possible...
The Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device is installed as a 7.1 capable device. 

So, yes, in that case, reinstalling was required. Hopefully reinstalling fixed the problem? It sounds like you got it working again eventually. Sorry about having to do that.

-Darin


----------



## Richter Di

Okay, this time OOYH first worked and then it stopped and started to produce the shrieky noise.
This time I tried once more your bug fixes and it showed 7.1 and worked.
But 5 - 10 minutes for nothing twice a week? That can't be right.


----------



## Nec3

Hi, I have a general question about high end speaker set ups. Do they usually sound like walls of reverb? I bought the Quad ESL Speakers which sounds amazing with an HD600. Honestly it sounds like the drivers are placed outside the headphones and the sound just let my ears relax which maintains the same signature of the HD600 (except with more bass ).

But now I'm looking for an effect for my iSine 20's, and most of these effects sound pretty hollow with a fatiguing upper mid boost.


----------



## oppman99

Try the Sashas.  That is the setting that has been the most consistently good for me.


----------



## Nec3

oppman99 said:


> Try the Sashas.  That is the setting that has been the most consistently good for me.



Well it definitely works with the my preference, thanks for the suggestion 
Edit: I just have to get accustomed to this crossfeed.


----------



## Richter Di

darinf said:


> Hmm... That is really strange. I have never seen a system where the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device only shows 5.1 instead of 7.1. I am not sure how that's even possible. But with Windows, anything is possible...
> The Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device is installed as a 7.1 capable device.
> 
> So, yes, in that case, reinstalling was required. Hopefully reinstalling fixed the problem? It sounds like you got it working again eventually. Sorry about having to do that.
> ...



Now I have the problem every day.
it happens often when I switch between Speaker configuartions to find the right one for the headphone I use.
But I found also a simpler way to deal with the problem.
The speaker settings are suddenly switched to stereo instead 7.1 and als 44.1 16 bit. Switching it all back and it works.


----------



## darinf

Richter Di said:


> Now I have the problem every day.
> it happens often when I switch between Speaker configuartions to find the right one for the headphone I use.
> But I found also a simpler way to deal with the problem.
> The speaker settings are suddenly switched to stereo instead 7.1 and als 44.1 16 bit. Switching it all back and it works.



Hi @Richter Di ,
Sorry about the problems. I am not sure why Windows or some other app would be changing your settings on the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device.

Do you notice any correlation to when the settings get reset and something else happening on your computer? i.e. does the settings change correspond to launching a particular app, or rebooting, or loading a web page, or any other scheduled background task? Do the settings change when switching presets or output devices? Or does it happen randomly if you are not touching the computer?

I have been testing Out Of Your Head with the latest Windows Creators updates on various computers and laptops and I am unable to reproduce the problem you are experiencing. So, if we can't reproduce the problem, it makes it tough for us to fix the problem.

-Darin


----------



## Richter Di

darinf said:


> Hi @Richter Di ,
> Sorry about the problems. I am not sure why Windows or some other app would be changing your settings on the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device.
> 
> Do you notice any correlation to when the settings get reset and something else happening on your computer? i.e. does the settings change correspond to launching a particular app, or rebooting, or loading a web page, or any other scheduled background task? Do the settings change when switching presets or output devices? Or does it happen randomly if you are not touching the computer?
> ...



As I wrote it starts fine and then I change the speaker setup in OOYH and the shrieky noise starts.
Can try to make a video and post it here.


----------



## darinf

Richter Di said:


> As I wrote it starts fine and then I change the speaker setup in OOYH and the shrieky noise starts.
> Can try to make a video and post it here.


Yes, please do, if you can make a video.

I have been testing on our Windows systems and cannot reproduce the problem when switching between different speaker presets in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.

Maybe try not switching presets too quickly. Say not more than once every 10 seconds or so.

-Darin


----------



## Richter Di

darinf said:


> Yes, please do, if you can make a video.
> 
> I have been testing on our Windows systems and cannot reproduce the problem when switching between different speaker presets in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel.
> 
> ...


Okay, I did not film it, but this time it was obvious what happened. So I opened the Windows audio settings and checked for 7.1 and 32 Bit 48. Everything fine. I then opened the Netflix app. Don't get the hopes too high I had used it only one time before. The other times I used Qobuz and Sony Media Go 3.2 and had the same problems. But anyhow. After I started the Netflix App it changed the settings to Stereo and 16 Bit forthy something. Not sure if it is 44 or 48.
I could change it back on the fly no need to close anything. Now it works.


----------



## Dawnrazor

Super cool idea.

Would totally buy this but afaict it wont work on my system.  I really need it to be a vst plugin or work with asio.  My playback software only outputs asio and I would rather not use asio4all.  

Is there a vst version? 

Thanks


----------



## darinf

Dawnrazor said:


> Super cool idea.
> 
> Would totally buy this but afaict it wont work on my system.  I really need it to be a vst plugin or work with asio.  My playback software only outputs asio and I would rather not use asio4all.
> 
> ...


Hi @Dawnrazor ,
Currently we do not have a native ASIO or VST solution. We may have something in the future as a VST plugin but don't have an ETA. 
What device are you using that only supports ASIO? I assume it's some kind of pro audio gear.
-Darin


----------



## Dawnrazor

darinf said:


> Hi @Dawnrazor ,
> Currently we do not have a native ASIO or VST solution. We may have something in the future as a VST plugin but don't have an ETA.
> What device are you using that only supports ASIO? I assume it's some kind of pro audio gear.
> -Darin


Hey Darin.  Thats great!!

The player is the bottle neck is the player it only supports ASIO.  The player is cplay which is probably only used by 5 people so I can see there is no big market for it. 

You are right the soundcard is a pro card its the lynx L2b.


----------



## darinf

Dawnrazor said:


> Hey Darin.  Thats great!!
> 
> The player is the bottle neck is the player it only supports ASIO.  The player is cplay which is probably only used by 5 people so I can see there is no big market for it.
> 
> You are right the soundcard is a pro card its the lynx L2b.


Yes, I see that cplay only supports outputting to ASIO devices. 
But you could use Out Of Your Head with your LynxTwo B sound card since the drivers look like they support Direct Sound, and Windows Wave Audio.
So, if you wanted to try Out Of Your Head but use another media player app besides cplay, you could. But I understand if you want to use cplay exclusively.

-Darin


----------



## Dawnrazor

darinf said:


> Yes, I see that cplay only supports outputting to ASIO devices.
> But you could use Out Of Your Head with your LynxTwo B sound card since the drivers look like they support Direct Sound, and Windows Wave Audio.
> So, if you wanted to try Out Of Your Head but use another media player app besides cplay, you could. But I understand if you want to use cplay exclusively.
> 
> -Darin


Thanks Darin

Yeah its a long story but i have the windows audio service turned off or removed.  So it would be a pain to get things going without asio. 

Thanks and fantastic idea!!


----------



## johnn29

Hi Darin,

I've recently been using Windows Sonic 7.1 in the latest Windows Creator Update - can you comment on how Out of your Head compares to that? Does it use different tech? What about the Dolby Atmos?

I've demo'd it and I'm very impressed at the effect. I ran a 7.1 test tone and unlike windows sonic which locates the front speakers at a right angle the OOYH locates them exactly as expected. But I'd just like to know a bit more about how it compares. I'm using a DT990.

Also do the latest Android API's help bring it to that platform? 

It's a shame there's no software based decoding of Dolby Atmos on PC's. You could then implement the height channels too


----------



## darinf

johnn29 said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> I've recently been using Windows Sonic 7.1 in the latest Windows Creator Update - can you comment on how Out of your Head compares to that? Does it use different tech? What about the Dolby Atmos?
> 
> ...


Hi @johnn29 ,
Thanks for your post.
While Windows Sonic and Dolby Atmos in Windows Creators are meant to achieve similar goals to Out Of Your Head, they are different technology. The main difference is that Out Of Your Head is based on actual measurements of real speakers and rooms. That's the biggest difference between Out Of Your Head and just about all other virtual surroound technology out there. I think that's why you can not only hear good localization of the virtual speakers but also have enough accuracy to be able to tell what kind of speakers you are hearing and the acoustics of the room the speakers were measured in.

But the best part is that anyone can download the Out Of Your Head trial from our website and compare it for themselves. Just make sure Sonic or Atmos are disabled when Out Of Your Head is running. Have both enabled will yield bad results!

We are still investigating the latest Android API's, but are not sure if that's going to help us.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## jaakkopasanen

Hey Darin,

I have been trying out OOYH for couple of days now and I gotta say it's very potential. I found couple of presets that work fairly well. Acoustic Zen and Magico Q3 offer quite good soundstage for music and PBN is very good. With PBN the sounds come from a lot further away in front of me compared to other presets. However I get big colorations to the sound signatures, many of the presets have almost no sub-bass and even mid-bass might be significantly reduced. For example the gamer preset have -10dB to -20dB for the bass and below 46Hz I get nothing on my Hifiman HE-400S. I don't think the reason for these colorations and bass reductions could be the algorithm or microphones because people with personal measurements have very hard time distinguishing between speakers and OOYH. Also it cannot possibly be the systems, or what kind of 7.1 system cannot produce frequencies below 46Hz. Then some presets make the sub-bass very weird, as if they are shifting energy from very low frequencies to higher. Listening to Trentemøller - Chameleon with certain presets I get no sub-bass rumble but all the sounds that are in the sub-bass region in that song are very well audible. I guess it must be that HRTF makes that much of a difference even for bass, right?

Surround material is a lot easier for OOYH (or rather my brain). Many presets get speakers in very clear and sharp locations in surround while failing miserably with stereo. For example Mi Casa Studio moves almost all the sounds behind my right ear when listening to stereo but renders all speakers very clearly and in correct height when playing surround source material. It's quite interesting to find that stereo vs surround makes that big difference. With surround even gamer preset can place the sounds fairly accurately around me although not tremendously far. Acoustic zen has about the same localisation but doesn't miss bass. PBN is very far but has the same bass issues as gamer preset. This makes my decision difficult, should I pay for the full licence to get better bass with Acoustic Zen or better localisation with PBN, or should I just cheap out and get the gamer version. Only if I could get spatials of PBN and bass of Acoustic Zen, I would by the full licence in a heartbeat.

I really think this is the future of audio and I think every gamer should be at least conscious of OOYH, whether they find gamer preset matching or not is another story. I think it would really help people (and sales) if there were a lot of people measured for the gamer preset. Speaker virtualization is the main value proposition of this software after all and if that doesn't work because HRTF doesn't match it's not very useful. Gaming market is so much bigger than audiophile market that you could be making a lot of more money focusing on gamers rather than audiophiles.

I'm thinking of organizing a measurement session in Finland. There's couple of movie mixing studios in Helsinki that might be willing to rent their mixing room for an hour or two. Gather a few people to be measured at the same time and studio rent costs would be very manageable. I just need to find somebody with Realizer A8 here in Finland. It would be so much more convenient if Fong audio had partners all over the globe who would offer measurements as a service. Studios could be good candidates since they shouldn't have a lot of commercial reasons not to allow people there getting measurements, unlike Hifi shops do have. Something you should maybe consider...

Thanks for awesome software but please do sell it more. It pains my heart that more people don't know about this.

By the way people have been asking about decoding Dolby Atmos. I can confirm that MPC-HC can decode Atmos and works really well with OOYH. Tested with Dobly Atmos test track here.


----------



## Nec3

The OOYH 7.1 gaming preset is very good. However for OOYH to succeed in the gaming market, these have to be ready as a plug and play option. So far one of the big issues I have is manually having to set the driver to 32bit/48khz and 7.1 surround, if not, I'm greeted unpleasant screeching noises (on windows 10). OOYH also have to be available offline, formatting my harddrive with my operating system in it means that I have to request Darin Fong to send me another activation code. And what happens if Darin Fong disappears from the face of the internet (knock on wood), while somehow my harddrive becomes corrupted? This is a very big issue as recent Nvidia drivers taken from Geforce Experience are known to corrupt boot drivers, and AMD's recent Meltdown patches from Microsoft brick old computers.

TL;DR OOYH is a spectacular product, but isn't reliable enough for the average gamer.


----------



## Zenvota

jaakkopasanen said:


> Hey Darin,
> 
> I have been trying out OOYH for couple of days now and I gotta say it's very potential. I found couple of presets that work fairly well. Acoustic Zen and Magico Q3 offer quite good soundstage for music and PBN is very good. With PBN the sounds come from a lot further away in front of me compared to other presets. However I get big colorations to the sound signatures, many of the presets have almost no sub-bass and even mid-bass might be significantly reduced. For example the gamer preset have -10dB to -20dB for the bass and below 46Hz I get nothing on my Hifiman HE-400S. I don't think the reason for these colorations and bass reductions could be the algorithm or microphones because people with personal measurements have very hard time distinguishing between speakers and OOYH. Also it cannot possibly be the systems, or what kind of 7.1 system cannot produce frequencies below 46Hz. Then some presets make the sub-bass very weird, as if they are shifting energy from very low frequencies to higher. Listening to Trentemøller - Chameleon with certain presets I get no sub-bass rumble but all the sounds that are in the sub-bass region in that song are very well audible. I guess it must be that HRTF makes that much of a difference even for bass, right?
> 
> ...



Mpc hc can decode atmos?


----------



## jaakkopasanen

It really seems so. Playing the Dolby TrueHD Atmos test tracks available in demo-world site have no issues with MPC-HC. I even confirmed that I had the Dolby TrueHD audio track selected. VLC on the other hand cannot play the audio nicely. There is a VLC developer confirming this on VideoLAN Forums. You can test it yourself, install MPC-HC and download couple of Dobly atmos test tracks.


----------



## Zenvota (Feb 6, 2018)

Mpc hc can bitstream atmos to an avr that can decode but i dont believe it can decode atmos and output pcm to ooyh

I believe Ircam Hear can decode atmos, not sure how you send the audio to it though, maybe as vst in jriver it intercepts the bitstream? /shrug


----------



## jaakkopasanen

I don't know about AVRs, I only have Windows PC, OOYH and ODAC+O2 to my headphones. So no hardware to decode the atmos. OOYH is playing very nicely with Atmos test tracks. All input channels are activating and I'm hearing very good surround effect.

I also got the bass fixed for PBN and Gamer presets with Equalizer APO. This looking very well worth the full licence.


----------



## Zenvota (Feb 6, 2018)

jaakkopasanen said:


> I don't know about AVRs, I only have Windows PC, OOYH and ODAC+O2 to my headphones. So no hardware to decode the atmos. OOYH is playing very nicely with Atmos test tracks. All input channels are activating and I'm hearing very good surround effect.
> 
> I also got the bass fixed for PBN and Gamer presets with Equalizer APO. This looking very well worth the full licence.



Ok, ya thats just the truehd base track, theres not any atmos object data that you're hearing.  However, "The Encounter" atmos demo does sound like it goes overhead in the first front left to rear right pan its pretty neat.

I agree ooyh is well worth the $150 if one of the presets HRTFs work well with you.  Ive tried every surround virtualization and nothing comes close to ooyh.  I also went through every preset and noted which ones didnt properly render certain frequencies for me(i.e. missing sub bass, missing bass guitar, missing snare drum, etc.).  For me the genelec room worked perfectly. 

Instead of using equalizer apo i put a dual 31 band graphic analog eq in line between my dac and amp and it flattens out my audeze el8 very well.  I also split the line out from the dac to an art crossover to use with bass shakers, which really helps with the immersion.


----------



## Avean

Anyone tried this for gaming or is it strictly for movies and music?


----------



## Zenvota (Feb 6, 2018)

Avean said:


> Anyone tried this for gaming or is it strictly for movies and music?


 I've used it for gaming it's excellent.  It does require some hardware for fidelity though.  The gamer preset has a 1 week trial and is only $25 so try it out. Im using a 4770k any increased latency was unnoticeable


----------



## Nec3

OOYH is better than CS:GO's built-in HRTF stereo DSP or Razer's Surround Sound.

Counterstrike: Global Offensive's HRTF sounds like a Boston Cream Donut, and OOYH's gaming preset sounds like a Chocolate Dip Donut. You get more chocolate detail surrounding the donut with the OOYH, but you also don't have the creamy filling that messes up the sweet goodness of the chocolate. Both of which taste better with a good coffee, I mean, sound good with a good headphone.


----------



## Avean

Nec3 said:


> OOYH is better than CS:GO's built-in HRTF stereo DSP or Razer's Surround Sound.
> 
> Counterstrike: Global Offensive's HRTF sounds like a Boston Cream Donut, and OOYH's gaming preset sounds like a Chocolate Dip Donut. You get more chocolate detail surrounding the donut with the OOYH, but you also don't have the creamy filling that messes up the sweet goodness of the chocolate. Both of which taste better with a good coffee, I mean, sound good with a good headphone.



Best ive read in months haha   It is amazing. I tried it out several times and compared it to Razer Surround, Dolby Headphone and more. Its alot more detailed and the sound is very clean. Best ive heard so far.


----------



## jaakkopasanen

I tried it out yesterday in Fortnite. The effect was amazing even though the gamer preset is not the best for me. FPS gaming is by far the best use case for me. Also tried Witcher 3, that didn't work quite as well, the sounds seemed to be coming from weird locations.


----------



## laserjet6

Hi Darin,

Are you still actively developing OOYH? I noticed that you last updated the app almost a year ago...
If yes, can you hint what are you working on? (Android app?, more than 7.1 channels with Atmos support?, etc.)

Thanks


----------



## darinf

laserjet6 said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> Are you still actively developing OOYH? I noticed that you last updated the app almost a year ago...
> If yes, can you hint what are you working on? (Android app?, more than 7.1 channels with Atmos support?, etc.)
> ...


Hi @laserjet6 ,
Thanks for posting.

Yes! We are always in development with various things.
To be honest, most of our development time is keeping up with changes in macOS and Windows. It's sad to say that we have been working on rewriting our engine just to mitigate changes in the audio systems of macOS and Windows. THen everytime we think we're close, more changes come down the line and we have to redo a lot of the work we've already done. It's been quite frustrating.
On other fronts, we have been working on a version for mobile devices for a long time now and still don't have anything ready. Likewise, we are also working on supporting more than 8 channels. That's an obvious direction to go.
We are a small company, just me and a programmer, so we don't have the resources to hire a big development staff and get this all done quickly. I wish we could, but I also didn't want to go the route of crowd funding for many reasons. It seems that even raising tons of cash is no guarantee of success. 

But, we are still here plugging away... I know it's been a long time since we've released an update. Sorry about that, but we are trying the best we can and I still think Out Of Your Head in its current release still holds up when compared to other options available.

BTW, we are having a CanJam SoCal show special now too if you want to buy a copy for 50% off...

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## ratboi

darinf said:


> Hi @laserjet6 ,
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> Yes! We are always in development with various things.
> ...



Can you say Crater Update?? 

Low kiloton yield, and yet...

Yes, everyone - it is time to grab some serious Out of Your Head experience, at half price none the less!! Buy a gaming addin, and give the code to a friend, and they can play the whole thing (kinda) for just $12.50. Take some samples for yourself (maybe some B&W?), and just try to avoid the fentanil...

Darin maybe should be circumspect, but I don't see any problem shilling for something I think is easily worth the price of admission, and then some - even at regular price. The sale goes to the end of 12 April...


----------



## ray-dude

ratboi said:


> Buy a gaming addin, and give the code to a friend, and they can play the whole thing (kinda) for just $12.50. Take some samples for yourself (maybe some B&W?), and just try to avoid the fentanil....



I sold my B&Ws last weekend, so this is the only way you’ll be able to hear them 

@darinf i have some new speakers for you...give me a couple more weeks to dial them in


----------



## Takeanidea

Zenvota said:


> Ive tried every surround virtualization and nothing comes close to ooyh.


Have you tried the hardware that OOYH is based on? The Smyth Realiser A8?


----------



## Zenvota (Apr 10, 2018)

Takeanidea said:


> Have you tried the hardware that OOYH is based on? The Smyth Realiser A8?



No, I think I should've caveated that statement with "except the realizer", but I have tried many software solutions, creative, dolby, razer, ircam, wave, etc.  

I recently upgraded my own hardware though and ooyh has never sounded better.  Went from o2 odac to audio gd nfb7, 1amp, and uptone regen.  Now the different presets render crystal clear. 

I think thats actually a plus over the realizer(being able to use various dacs/amps) and if you're able to get a measurement taken Darin can make you a custom preset


----------



## Zenvota

@darinf have you thought about offering an additional product with atmos/dts:x decoding?  Or do we see Windows adding all those height channels and lav being able to decode in the future?


----------



## Takeanidea (Apr 10, 2018)

Zenvota said:


> No, I think I should've caveated that statement with "except the realizer", but I have tried many software solutions, creative, dolby, razer, ircam, wave, etc.
> 
> I recently upgraded my own hardware though and ooyh has never sounded better.  Went from o2 odac to audio gd nfb7, 1amp, and uptone regen.  Now the different presets render crystal clear.
> 
> I think thats actually a plus over the realizer(being able to use various dacs/amps) and if you're able to get a measurement taken Darin can make you a custom preset


I have used OOYH for a few years. Because it's using the realizer as it's front end and it doesn't have head tracking it can never be technically as good as that from which even a custom preset is used. From a practical point of view I have tried the Realiser in it's prototype A16 format. There is no contest between the 2. The hardware version from which the software has been created wins hands down. People intending to get the ultimate (up til now) need to at least be aware there are potentially better products out there than OOYH for surround simulation. The Realiser can be connected to an external dac and amp by the way


----------



## Fox1977

I've been using also OOYH for 3 years and it's working quite ok. Yet, it will be replaced by the Realiser A16 (when it's at last finished) for which i had a 7.1.4 PRIR measured. Since the preset i use with OOYH was not measured with my own head, the result is obviously much less accurate than what i could hear with the A16. It's possible to have a Realiser A8 custom PRIR converted for OOYH by it's a very expensive procedure (150$, the price of the license for the software !). Maybe it requires a lot of work to convert it...


----------



## Takeanidea

Fox1977 said:


> I've been using also OOYH for 3 years and it's working quite ok. Yet, it will be replaced by the Realiser A16 (when it's at last finished) for which i had a 7.1.4 PRIR measured. Since the preset i use with OOYH was not measured with my own head, the result is obviously much less accurate than what i could hear with the A16. It's possible to have a Realiser A8 custom PRIR converted for OOYH by it's a very expensive procedure (150$, the price of the license for the software !). Maybe it requires a lot of work to convert it...


Exactly the same case for me . When Darin gets an A16 he will be able to do a custom PRIR. We will have an exchange website with Smyth and that is likely to be free......


----------



## Zenvota

Takeanidea said:


> There is no contest between the 2. The hardware version from which the software has been created wins hands down.



heh, very cool, it's very exciting how advanced headphone surround is getting.  and again remember my original comment was not referring to the realizer at all, but to products in a similar price range ;] I'd think those aware of this program, and with the money for a realizer, are aware of the realizer being that this thread's only tag is the realizer... in fact I'm pretty sure I found out about ooyh from reading about the realizer



Takeanidea said:


> The Realiser can be connected to an external dac and amp by the way



that I didn't realize, that's good XD also the realizer has outs for tactile transducers correct? do you know if this is a crossover or does it split/duplicate the signal?  I'm currently just using the emotiva xbal splitters out of my dac to an eq/crossover/amp for shakers, since I still want the sub80hz information coming through the headphones as well.


----------



## Takeanidea

Zenvota said:


> that I didn't realize, that's good XD also the realizer has outs for tactile transducers correct? do you know if this is a crossover or does it split/duplicate the signal?



Hiya, I never tried the A16 with a sub but this just produces the lower bass and is a duplicate of what you'll hear through your headphones, I didn't need the subwoofer effect for my ears to be fooled . In fact I found the bass better through the headphones and I don't even understand how that could be possible...........
Anyways, we're derailing the OOYH thread - there's clearly plenty of people here enjoying it


----------



## Richter Di

Takeanidea said:


> Anyways, we're derailing the OOYH thread - there's clearly plenty of people here enjoying it



Yes, but in a good way. Connecting to our shared interest in the A16.
BTW, it is funny how strongly the effect of the OOYH in my case is dependent on the headphone I use. Today I tried my sons Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohm (which I had traded for my Sennheiser 630 VB, since he needed a headset). It was the most believable OOYH presentation ever with a preset I had not bought so far (Sonus Faber). So interesting.


----------



## Takeanidea

My AKG K1000s are completely open and deliver a slightly better reproduction than my others. Some presets are more accurate than others because of the place in which they were made and the success of the people in setting up their measurements and subsequently sharing that preset for sharing purposes


----------



## donunus

I never got an email when I clicked the link


----------



## darinf

donunus said:


> I never got an email when I clicked the link


Hi @donunus , I am not sure what link you are referring to. Are you referring to our free trial download?
In order to download the free trial, just go to our website:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-trial-download/ 
Then you click on the link for either the Windows or Mac version at the bottom of the page.
Then you have to "checkout" with your email address. (There is no charge or payment information required.).
After you checkout, you should immediately receive and email to the email address you entered with your unique download link to download the Out Of Your Head installer.
(You might also want to check your spam folder if you don't receive the email within a few minutes. Our sever sends the email out right away.)
Please note that the download link expires in 24 hours.
If you do find that the download link has expired, just repeat the trial download process again to receive a new download link in your email.

Or let me know if you were talking about some other link.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## donunus

Thanks, I’ll try again


----------



## ratboi

darinf said:


> Yes, sometimes changes to your system can change your UUID value in Out Of Your Head.
> 
> Please e-mail us your new UUID from the e-mail address you used to make your original purchase.
> 
> ...



Just wondering if there is a preferred email address. is info@fongaudio.com good? sent in the new uuid a short while ago is all. looking forward to listening with Genelec Recording Studio again...

TIA!!


----------



## darinf

ratboi said:


> Just wondering if there is a preferred email address. is info@fongaudio.com good? sent in the new uuid a short while ago is all. looking forward to listening with Genelec Recording Studio again...
> 
> TIA!!


Hi @ratboi , 
Yes, that's the right e-mail, but I never got an email from you. (I don't think. I am not sure what your e-mail address is though.)
Please email me again so we can get you sorted out.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## ratboi (Apr 14, 2018)

darinf said:


> Hi @ratboi ,
> Yes, that's the right e-mail, but I never got an email from you. (I don't think. I am not sure what your e-mail address is though.)
> Please email me again so we can get you sorted out.
> 
> ...



ok, sent without forwarding, maybe that helped. you've caught it, thanks much! now for a little Peter Gabriel live...

EDIT...
yesssss!!! 

The slightly better processor made a difference, but still getting a blpz noise with a cpu usage peak to max, can force it with alt-tabs and other such things. PDVD 16 is a bit of a load on an old AMD quad core. Guess we'll be putting in the FX-8350 when it comes mid-week, and I'll be sending the new UUID.

Climbing up on Solsbury Hill...


----------



## JimJames

And how much is the Realiser A16 gonna cost? I've seen that they've been using it with the hd800 so it might be a bit of cheating? Is it gonna sound just as perfect with any decent headphone?


----------



## Takeanidea

JimJames said:


> And how much is the Realiser A16 gonna cost? I've seen that they've been using it with the hd800 so it might be a bit of cheating? Is it gonna sound just as perfect with any decent headphone?


Yes I've heard it. And not with the HD800. With a much cheaper pair of Stax Electrostatic Headphones. And it's gonna cost a fortune. I got in when the price was much lower


----------



## Got the Shakes

JimJames said:


> And how much is the Realiser A16 gonna cost? I've seen that they've been using it with the hd800 so it might be a bit of cheating? Is it gonna sound just as perfect with any decent headphone?



Believe the Realiser A16 is now $4000 retail. For Kickstarter backers and preorders you were able to jump in for somewhere between $1100-$1800 depending on when you placed an order. We still don’t know when it will ship as it’s been delayed over a year past the original intended ship date.

In regards to what headphones would work with it, they have demoed with the HD800 which I’m sure helps given the large soundstage, but the Realiser calibrates to any headphone that you use with it.

There is actually a dedicated Realiser thread here and it’s fairly active if you have any other questions.


----------



## Benny-x

With the action, I got excited and thought there might be some real OOYH updates. I haven't really heard any news from them, the products, speaker profiles, etc. in ages. 

Anyone know about any news or maybe the OOYH could even speak of some upcoming items to look forward too?


----------



## edwardsean

I can't speak for Darin, but as far as I know, he is seeking further development but there are still some outstanding issues to resolve. Apple seems to change the way that OSX processes audio with each update. This has caused him to dedicate resources to reconciling how OOYH works with Mac.


----------



## darinf

Thanks for answering on my behalf @edwardsean ...
Yes, I know it's been a LONG time since we've had any updates or anything new to speak of.
But @edwardsean is right. We have been working for a LONG time on rewriting our whole processing engine to deal with changes in both Windows and macOS. Everytime we think we have a solution, the "target" moves and our solution doesn't work properly.
I think we are on our third scheme for rewriting our processing engine and USB audio interface. 
To be honest, I have also not had time to search out new speaker systems for measurement. It's very time consuming just to find systems available for measurement. (I think once all the Realiser A16 backers get their units, people will realize how tricky finding locations and doing measurements can be.)

And we are hoping that our "universal" engine will eventually be easy apply to all platforms including iOS and Android and probably Linux too.

We are also working on some partnerships that hopefully will show up before the end of this year. But I can't say any more about that, sorry...

But, we are still 100% dedicated to continuing development of Out Of Your Head and of course fully support our customers. We are still alive and kicking! 

Thanks to everyone for all your support and purchases!

-Darin


----------



## Brooko

darinf said:


> And we are hoping that our "universal" engine will eventually be easy apply to all platforms including iOS and Android *and probably Linux too.*



And then all of my Xmas's will have come at once.


----------



## edwardsean

Brooko said:


> And then all of my Xmas's will have come at once.



Agree! Darin, I'm so glad/relieved to hear that you're not daunted by the complexity of bringing OOYH to Android/IOS!

I've recently got an iBasso DX200 + amp8. Paired with the LCDi4 it rivals my full stationary desktop rig. The thought of having a world class speaker system in a portable convolution capture is the dream.


----------



## Benny-x

darinf said:


> Thanks for answering on my behalf @edwardsean ...
> Yes, I know it's been a LONG time since we've had any updates or anything new to speak of.
> But @edwardsean is right. We have been working for a LONG time on rewriting our whole processing engine to deal with changes in both Windows and macOS. Everytime we think we have a solution, the "target" moves and our solution doesn't work properly.
> I think we are on our third scheme for rewriting our processing engine and USB audio interface.
> ...


Thanks a lot for replying, Darin. I feel you on the OS front, but selfishly, I'd be totally OK if you only prioritized Windows and then Linux development... If you forgot all about Mac OS, I wouldn't chase you down. I'd be fine with that choice, especially if it helped advance the development or other parts about OOYH Windows release 

That's really good to hear from you, though, and I wish you the best of luck with all that. I'll be ready to throw money at any new developments, so, let us know when you're ready.


----------



## AthenaZephyrian

edwardsean said:


> For anyone interested, professional level upmixing from stereo tracks to 5.1/7.1 for OOYH can be done.
> 
> I've been pursuing this for years to take full advantage of OOYH's surround sound capability. I've been so impressed with this while watching movies. Sometimes, at the end, when the credits roll up, there is a beautiful multichannel mix of a track I own in stereo. Those big cinematic orchestral pieces sound grand in 5.1/7.1 but less so in 2.0 and the bass is diminished.
> 
> ...



You're a madman.


----------



## Fox1977

Hey guys !
I was wondering, is there a way that i record the soundtrack of a movie processed with OOYH, something that would start and stop automatically, so that after i can remux the processed soundtrack with my MKV without needing any resync or edit, so that i can play it on the go on a tablet or any device that doesn't run OOYH ?
That way, if it starts and stops automatically with the soundtrack, the duration of it will be exactly the same that the orignal soundtrack, and it won't be a bummer to remux.
Maybe Darin knows a way...
Thanks to anyone who has a good solution !! (if there is one...)


----------



## darinf

Fox1977 said:


> Hey guys !
> I was wondering, is there a way that i record the soundtrack of a movie processed with OOYH, something that would start and stop automatically, so that after i can remux the processed soundtrack with my MKV without needing any resync or edit, so that i can play it on the go on a tablet or any device that doesn't run OOYH ?
> That way, if it starts and stops automatically with the soundtrack, the duration of it will be exactly the same that the orignal soundtrack, and it won't be a bummer to remux.
> Maybe Darin knows a way...
> Thanks to anyone who has a good solution !! (if there is one...)


Hi @Fox1977 ,
I am not sure what you mean by start and stop automatically.
You can digitally record the processed audio from Out Of Your Head using Audacity or similar. The best way is to record the whole movie at once. Then you could remux it without worrying about resyncing issues.

If you are saying that you can't record a whole 2 hours at once, then I can see what you mean about automatically starting and stopping the playback/recording so the "pieces" of processed audio line up easily.
I am not aware of any easy way to do that.
I suppose if you used an audio app that can playback video and record at the same time, then the recording and playback would be synced. 
I think many of the DAW software can play a video while recording audio as someone would need to do if they were doing a film score or something similar.

-Darin


----------



## phoenixdogfan (Sep 8, 2018)

Zenvota said:


> No, I think I should've caveated that statement with "except the realizer", but I have tried many software solutions, creative, dolby, razer, ircam, wave, etc.
> 
> I recently upgraded my own hardware though and ooyh has never sounded better.  Went from o2 odac to audio gd nfb7, 1amp, and uptone regen.  Now the different presets render crystal clear.
> 
> I think thats actually a plus over the realizer(being able to use various dacs/amps) and if you're able to get a measurement taken Darin can make you a custom preset



Does anyone on this thread have a custom preset from Darrin.  If so, would it be possible to share your listening impressions.  It would be especially helpful if you have experience with a custom PRIR from the A8 Equalizer as well.


----------



## Fox1977

darinf said:


> I am not sure what you mean by start and stop automatically.


I mean that the recording would start straight when the movie starts to play, because if i launch recording manually and then i launch the movie, i will have a blank at the beginning and at the end, that i will have to cut afterwards and i may not know exactly where to cut (because at the beginning of a movie, there can a few mute seconds). Then if i don't cut at the exact right moment, the soundtrack may be out of sync with video when i remux. I don't know if my explanations are clear...


----------



## laserjet6

I would like to know if there is a way to do that too. 
The mismatch is the time difference between I hit record in Audacity and play in media player. And of coarse the offset is always different. 
Currently, I have to load both the original and recording from OOYH in Audacity and compare the tracks to find the exact match. Then i have to cut the beginning of OOYH track, the end as well and only after I can mux it in mkv and play on my tablet or my dumb media player in living room.


----------



## darinf

Sorry about not responding sooner.
I understand the problem now.
I am not aware of a way to do that with Audacity.
Basically you would need to use audio software that supports playback of a video while also recording the output from Out Of Your Head. DAW software can simultaneously play and record. 
Again, I think you would need to setup a DAW in a film scoring configuration where a video is playing and the audio is recording from the same software.
Off hand I am not aware of anything that does that specifically, but I assume most DAW software can do it.
-Darin


----------



## edwardsean

@darinf, any progress with Mojave?


----------



## darinf

edwardsean said:


> @darinf, any progress with Mojave?


Unfortunately, the short answer is no. My programmer has been out for a while due to family issues. I am currently trying to figure out an alternative. Sorry!


----------



## edwardsean

No problem Darin, I miss OOYH! But, I totally understand.


----------



## arnaud

I am not receiving reply to email request about license migration to a different machine. Is darin still online?


----------



## Got the Shakes

arnaud said:


> I am not receiving reply to email request about license migration to a different machine. Is darin still online?



Not sure, but that seems unlike him. I sent him an email about the same thing about 6 months ago and I think he responded within an hour.


----------



## Fox1977

It happened to me also a few times that license was not working anymore, because i had modified hardware on my computer (changing HDD for example) or also for some unexplained reason (some software update probably) and Darin was always very quick to answer.


----------



## darinf

arnaud said:


> I am not receiving reply to email request about license migration to a different machine. Is darin still online?


HI @arnaud ,
So sorry! I did not see your email until I saw this post. It was in my SPAM folder for some reason.
I will take care of it right away!
Generally if you don't hear from me within 24 hours, then please email again. I usually try to respond within an hour unless I am travelling or have some other event.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## darinf

FYI, everyone.
I am sorry to saw that while we have been working on macOS Mojave compatibility for a long time, we still do not have a solution for Mojave.
Currently Out Of Your Head will install, but there is a problem with our virtual audio device driver and cannot get sound to pass through to the Out Of Your Head engine.

So, if you can help it, please don't update to Mojave or Out Of Your Head will stop working.

If you already have upgraded to Mojave, then I will post again when we have a fixed version.

Sorry about that, but we are working on a solution.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## laserjet6

This looks to be interesting. 
I wonder if it can get the same effect as OOYH
https://www.sxfi.com/tech/


----------



## Zenvota

laserjet6 said:


> This looks to be interesting.
> I wonder if it can get the same effect as OOYH
> https://www.sxfi.com/tech/



Unless i missed something, it doesn't seem to use measurements of loudspeakers.  The ear mapping is interesting though compared to wavesnx and isones head measurments. Creative typicslly doesnt allow standalone use of their software youd have to buy their soundcard, unless i missed something again with cmss3d or sbx =p


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> Unless i missed something, it doesn't seem to use measurements of loudspeakers.  The ear mapping is interesting though compared to wavesnx and isones head measurments. Creative typicslly doesnt allow standalone use of their software youd have to buy their soundcard, unless i missed something again with cmss3d or sbx =p



Super x-fi has generated quite a lot of buzz in the audio consumer market. It's just starting to gain some interest at headfi.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/creative-super-x-fi-headphone-holography.869663/

I have one on reserve when it hits the US market. Right now it is only available in Singapore. 

My understanding is that it can function as software only with saved music files (i.e., no streaming). However, you need to have a physical unit to "unlock" the software, and the processing is less complex without the dedicated hardware chip. 

I know they are looking into broader integration and licensing. I think without this it will always be a mass consumer product rather than an actual audiophile solution. I'm really optimistic about the approach and, from everything I've read, I think they've cracked it. If you're limited to their DAC/amp though it will have severely compromised sound quality.


----------



## Zenvota

edwardsean said:


> Super x-fi has generated quite a lot of buzz in the audio consumer market. It's just starting to gain some interest at headfi.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/creative-super-x-fi-headphone-holography.869663/
> 
> ...



I see, thanks, I read around a bit and saw that they did some demos with in ear mics, but couldn't find more information if thats going to be an end user feature or was just for the demos.  That's something I'd like to try, I think I remember reading in this thread that Darin can input the measurements into a custom preset for you but I wouldn't even know where to start to get that done without a realiser.

Great that the market for virtual surround keeps expanding though, just seems like OOYH is still gonna be my choice for some time, which is totally fine ;]


----------



## musicreo

Zenvota said:


> I see, thanks, I read around a bit and saw that they did some demos with in ear mics, but couldn't find more information if thats going to be an end user feature or was just for the demos



The mics were just used for the demo.


----------



## glorkaglickflic

darinf said:


> FYI, everyone.
> I am sorry to saw that while we have been working on macOS Mojave compatibility for a long time, we still do not have a solution for Mojave.
> Currently Out Of Your Head will install, but there is a problem with our virtual audio device driver and cannot get sound to pass through to the Out Of Your Head engine.
> 
> ...


Any more news on the Mojave issue, Darin?


----------



## darinf

glorkaglickflic said:


> Any more news on the Mojave issue, Darin?


Thanks for asking.
Unfortunately we haven't made much progress. Still trying though. Debugging device drivers (kernel extensions) in macOS is non-trivial. Plus we've had to find a new programmer to help with development. That has caused delays getting them up to speed.

I will post any updates on our progress as soon as I have anything to report. If we end up having to change the driver, we will also be at the mercy of Apple to approve/certify it.

-Darin


----------



## aerospace33

Has anyone tried a comparison with a hardware based equivalent like the Smyth Realizer?


----------



## audiohobbit

not yet...

I have an A8, and am eagerly waiting for the A16 I backed on kickstarter.

Since the Realiser is the only way for me to listen to movies and music LOUD in my apartment, I'm alway anxious that the Realiser breaks and no one can repair it in the future (who knows how long the Smyths will be in the business..)

So I'm looking for possible alternatives (as a longtime backup, because a PC can be replaced, a realiser not or not so easy). As I already have personalised PRIRs from the A8 I could use them also with OOYH as far as I understand.

But I got one important question: Can a computer with OOYH be used as a black box like the Realiser?
That means can you input external multichannel signals (via PCM or even analog) to the PC (with the right soundcard), can it be processed by OOYH and then output the 2ch HP signal to external hardware (EQ, HP amp etc.)?

Because I don't want to use a PC as a Bluray Player (and since I use UHD bluray as well theres no player for those on a PC nor a disc drive or a legal way to play them).


----------



## Zenvota

audiohobbit said:


> Because I don't want to use a PC as a Bluray Player (and since I use UHD bluray as well theres no player for those on a PC nor a disc drive or a legal way to play them).



There are internal uhd blu ray drives and powerdvd supports uhd.  Im not sure on the legality but I use dvdfab to decrypt the discs since I like using mpchc with madvr(jriver is similar using madvr and lav filters).

Ive never seen a pc accept audio from a separate source but maybe its possible.  Sounds like some expensive pro audio equipment though.


----------



## darinf

audiohobbit said:


> not yet...
> 
> I have an A8, and am eagerly waiting for the A16 I backed on kickstarter.
> 
> ...



Hi @audiohobbit ,
Thanks for posting.
While you can use Out Of Your Head on a computer to watch movies, the movie has to be played back on the computer either via a disk drive, file/server, or streaming. But since computers do not generally have HDMI inputs or any other way to get multi-channel audio into the computer, it's not easy to use an external player or source.

But as you mentioned, you can use an audio input card or device to get multi-channel digital audio into the computer. Then you would have to be able to feed the live audio signal to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device to process the audio and send it out to your headphones.

In theory it could be done, but most audio input cards don't support multi-channel audio. Some of the higher end pro audio devices can do it, but off hand I am not sure what's out there these days.
The other issue might be latency. But that would depend on the device and the software used to pass through the audio.

I personally haven't tried it.

-Darin


----------



## darinf

Zenvota said:


> There are internal uhd blu ray drives and powerdvd supports uhd.  Im not sure on the legality but I use dvdfab to decrypt the discs since I like using mpchc with madvr(jriver is similar using madvr and lav filters).
> 
> Ive never seen a pc accept audio from a separate source but maybe its possible.  Sounds like some expensive pro audio equipment though.


Thanks for replying @Zenvota .
Sorry I didn't see your reply before I posted mine.
You are absolutely right.
Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## audiohobbit (Nov 21, 2018)

Thanks Darin. So at least in theory it should be poosible if I get a professional sound card with inputs. maybe a used one for example.

Anyway OOYH would just be a fallback solution for me if the realiser fails some day.
The only problem I see is with your licensing. If someday you'll also stop the business and I change hardware I'd need a new license afaik and then I can't get one.

The charge is only once isn't it? How much is it, software, license and one personal PRIR? (and additional PRIRs?)

PS: Does OOYH need much processing power?


----------



## Zenvota

audiohobbit said:


> PS: Does OOYH need much processing power?



On my i7 4770k and i3 8350k systems it uses 1-2% during the most demanding surround sound scenes, so no, it doesnt need alot of processing power, but it does benefit from faster processors in that I have no latency issues.


----------



## darinf

audiohobbit said:


> Thanks Darin. So at least in theory it should be poosible if I get a professional sound card with inputs. maybe a used one for example.
> 
> Anyway OOYH would just be a fallback solution for me if the realiser fails some day.
> The only problem I see is with your licensing. If someday you'll also stop the business and I change hardware I'd need a new license afaik and then I can't get one.
> ...


I suppose if I go out of business,, and you change hardware, then yes, you would not be able to get a new license. But that is assuming that I would not be around even if I ever went out of business.
I would imagine that even if I went out of business, I would still be able to issue new licenses to previous customers.

The license fee is a one time charge and does not expire. There may be an upgrade charge for future versions, but so far that has never happened.

The Out Of Your Head software is $149 for one speaker preset of your choice. 
Additional presets are $15 to $25.
If you want me to convert your own PRIR to a custom Out Of Your Head preset, the cost is $150 per conversion.

-Darin


----------



## Fox1977

darinf said:


> If you want me to convert your own PRIR to a custom Out Of Your Head preset, the cost is $150 per conversion


Hi Darin,
May I ask why the conversion is that expensive ? Does it require a lot of work for you ?
Since a regular preset costs $25, a customized one for $50 would sound fair but $150, that's quite a big sum.


----------



## darinf

Fox1977 said:


> Hi Darin,
> May I ask why the conversion is that expensive ? Does it require a lot of work for you ?
> Since a regular preset costs $25, a customized one for $50 would sound fair but $150, that's quite a big sum.


Hi @Fox1977 , 
Sorry about not responding sooner.

The short answer is "yes", it is a lot of work to do the custom preset conversion. The process can take hours of work. It's not a plug and play process. It is a custom process that is unique to each conversion. 
The regular presets are a lot of work to create too, but the assumption is that they are lower priced since they will be sold many times. The custom preset will only be sold once.
It's just like a custom fit, handmade IEM vs. a universal fit. The custom, "one off" product is going to be more expensive.


----------



## Fox1977

Thanks for the explanations !


----------



## Zenvota

darinf said:


> Hi @Fox1977 ,
> Sorry about not responding sooner.
> 
> The short answer is "yes", it is a lot of work to do the custom preset conversion. The process can take hours of work. It's not a plug and play process. It is a custom process that is unique to each conversion.
> ...



Is there any way to make a custom preset without a Realiser?


----------



## whazzup

Any upcoming discounts for the last month of 2018?


----------



## darinf

Zenvota said:


> Is there any way to make a custom preset without a Realiser?


No. At the moment you must use a Realiser if you want a custom preset.


----------



## darinf

whazzup said:


> Any upcoming discounts for the last month of 2018?


Yes...But I am not allowed to announce it here. You can follow us on social media to find out.


----------



## darinf

FYI, we posted a new macOS version on our website.
I think we finally figured out the Mojave problems so the latest version should work with Mojave.
Unfortunately we are still working on fixing the macOS USB DAC sync problems...We've been trying to figure that one out for a long time too.


----------



## martyp87

Just purchased a license for OOYH with the Genelec and Home Theatre presets after playing around with the trial. 

The Genelec is by far my favourite out of all the presets for music on my iSine 20s with the home theatre preset offering a bit more bump in the LFE channel for movies if desired. 

On my DT1990s I'm not too keen on the effect and prefer my old Mid Side/Can Opener setup with these as it is less noticeable, to be honest these cans sound great just feeding them raw stereo.  On the other hand it really makes the iSines come alive and makes me wonder if I should try out the LCD i4s - the comfort of these is night and day for long term listening over full sized headphones.  P.S. yet to try the presets with my SE846 IEMs.

Can OOYH be used as a plug-in, specifically so I can chain it in with Audio Hijack on Mac OS opposed to using it as a virtual sound driver?  I can't seem to get Audirvana Plus 3 to feed to it even when selected within the options.  

I also have an issue with the sound driver where if you are listening to music for say 10 mins it begins to artefact and switching speaker preset back and forth fixes it - assume this is potentially a Mac OS issue?

Overall though, great job Darin and team - you've made my iSines come alive!!!


----------



## edwardsean (Dec 27, 2018)

martyp87 said:


> Just purchased a license for OOYH with the Genelec and Home Theatre presets after playing around with the trial.
> 
> The Genelec is by far my favourite out of all the presets for music on my iSine 20s with the home theatre preset offering a bit more bump in the LFE channel for movies if desired.
> 
> ...



Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Yes, OOYH is amazing with the LDCi4s. The drawback of IEMs over full-size phones have always been their considerably smaller soundstage. Audeze’s open-back execution goes a long way to closing the gap and the i4 is—far and away—the current pinnacle of that design. (I had the 20s before the i4. The i4s cost 5x as much and are 5x better.) OOYH with the i4s goes the rest of the way in resolving any soundstage deficiencies.

Yes, OOYH can be chained in Audio Hijack. That’s the way I use it because I’m running multichannel plugins that go beyond Audirvana’s capabilities.

Yes, however, Audirvana feeds directly into OOYH just fine when selected as the output from within A+. The issue you may be having is that you need to start up A+ and load a track first. Then activate OOYH. If OOYH is not getting an input signal. Try changing outputs to something else and then back to your preferred output. If it’s still not working, quit OOYH (cmd+Q, don’t use the quit button—it just minimizes OOYH) and then restart it. If it’s still not working, quit and restart again. It usually does not take all of this to get it running.


----------



## Zenvota

martyp87 said:


> On my DT1990s I'm not too keen on the effect



Try eqing the treble down.  I don't  know how accurate the rtings measurementa are but if you listen to a frequency sweep you should be able to hear these peaks at 2-3khz and 7-10khz.



Spoiler: DT 1990 Measurement








I EQ any headphone I use with OOYH flat, I find it sounds much more natural for me.


----------



## martyp87

edwardsean said:


> Yes, Yes, and Yes.
> 
> Yes, OOYH is amazing with the LDCi4s. The drawback of IEMs over full-size phones have always been their considerably smaller soundstage. Audeze’s open-back execution goes a long way to closing the gap and the i4 is—far and away—the current pinnacle of that design. (I had the 20s before the i4. The i4s cost 5x as much and are 5x better.) OOYH with the i4s goes the rest of the way in resolving any soundstage deficiencies.
> 
> ...



I've played around with A+ and I whilst I can get it to send sound to OOYH (if I switch off Exclusive Access Mode), I still get clicks and pops during playback which are actually painful to hear.  Reverting back to iTunes/Tidal until I play around with it a little more.

Can't seem to get the plug-in to work with the Mojo as after 5-10 mins the audio gets distorted, on the Jotunheim it works perfect - actually watched a movie there with no issues. To be honest, the Jot seems to enhance the sound with the iSines, probably due to more punch. The iSines just seem to take power and just deliver more sound unlike any headphone I've had (HE-560s, 800S, DT1990s) and with this plug-in the effect gets even more realistic with more amplification. I honestly love it!

Really need to try out the LCDi4s, although I will need to have the cash to buy them as I know I would end up purchasing them.

I've also dialled down the output gain to -18 as it was clipping on some tracks (mainly anything bass heavy or most music from nowadays!)



Zenvota said:


> Try eqing the treble down.  I don't  know how accurate the rtings measurementa are but if you listen to a frequency sweep you should be able to hear these peaks at 2-3khz and 7-10khz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, I am going to play around with an EQ on Audio Hijack for these although to be honest, after putting the iSine 20s back on my ears after months its really difficult to take them back off!


----------



## Zenvota

martyp87 said:


> I've also dialled down the output gain to -18 as it was clipping on some tracks (mainly anything bass heavy or most music from nowadays!)



I usually just turn my player down a bit if theres clipping, its usually only with music that's mixed louder.  I leave the inputs at 0 on ooyh and the outputs i set per preset, some are at 0, some +15 some -15.  Just personally find it easier to adjust player volume, not touch ooyh, and retain that bit depth as often as possible.


----------



## martyp87

Yeah, the input never clips its just once the plug-in has done it's thing it basically just peaks from beginning to end on most modern tracks, older songs that I usually listen to 70s, 80s are mostly fine though.   Turning the volume down in the player to about 50% works too though so will stick with that if delivers better quality on the output stage. 

Currently listening with the SE846s and from the first track my jaw just dropped. I didn't think a sound like this was possible from IEMs, it just sounds so natural and open.  The treble is perhaps a little too high so I will dial in a little EQ to fix that.


----------



## arnaud

I also need to restart it every 30min or so as audio suddenly gets distorted. 
It very much feels like when the dac misinterprets the sampling rate of data its been fed.
In this case, it feels to me like some issue with resampling of the stream during convolution. 
These prirs it is using come straight from the realiser, so are sampled at 48kHz.
I notice issue with itunes podcasts and such that are sampled at 44kHz. 
The exterior dac (usb asynchronous) somehow must not be getting exactly a 44kHz feed ( or otherwise 48kHz, not sure what’s done with the convolution engine of the realiser.

Didn’t darin mention about ongoing issue with usb dacs?


----------



## Zenvota

martyp87 said:


> Yeah, the input never clips its just once the plug-in has done it's thing it basically just peaks from beginning to end on most modern tracks, older songs that I usually listen to 70s, 80s are mostly fine though.   Turning the volume down in the player to about 50% works too though so will stick with that if delivers better quality on the output stage.
> 
> Currently listening with the SE846s and from the first track my jaw just dropped. I didn't think a sound like this was possible from IEMs, it just sounds so natural and open.  The treble is perhaps a little too high so I will dial in a little EQ to fix that.



http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSE846BlackFilterSampleB.pdf

Those shures are interesting.  They don't have the 2-4khz bump(see the uncompensated frequency response) of most headphones following the harmon curve which I find doesn't pair well with the virtualization and roome emulation(too bright?)  Theyre also intensely fast and responsive( see the i.pulse response).  What you might be hearing is the leading edge of the transient though and i dont know if you can tone that down(seethe 300hz square wave).  Low distortion too.  Maybe try the magico q3(mg - magical speakers preset maybe.  I usually use that one for lofi black metal xD


----------



## Zenvota

arnaud said:


> I also need to restart it every 30min or so as audio suddenly gets distorted.
> It very much feels like when the dac misinterprets the sampling rate of data its been fed.
> In this case, it feels to me like some issue with resampling of the stream during convolution.
> These prirs it is using come straight from the realiser, so are sampled at 48kHz.
> ...



I'll sometimes have an issue with lots of poos and crackles when I first turn the program on, but a quick change of the default audio setting or reseting the channel configuration fixes it and it's fine for hours.  This is using asynch usb devices like xmos and amanero


----------



## martyp87

I purchased another speaker preset (Revel Ultima) and received another .lic file via e-mail. I dropped it in the Applications folder alongside the other .lic file (with Genelec & Home Theatre presets) however, even after restarting MacOS, OOYH still doesn't recognise it. Any ideas on how I can get OOYH to register the new preset?


----------



## darinf

martyp87 said:


> I purchased another speaker preset (Revel Ultima) and received another .lic file via e-mail. I dropped it in the Applications folder alongside the other .lic file (with Genelec & Home Theatre presets) however, even after restarting MacOS, OOYH still doesn't recognise it. Any ideas on how I can get OOYH to register the new preset?


Hi @martyp87,
Thank you for your purchase.
The license files should be saved to your macOS account's default "Downloads" folder. That is where Out Of Your Head looks for them when Out Of Your Head is launched.
I am not sure how your other license files could be working if they are in the "Applications" folder.
If your license file is in the "Downloads" folder and it's still not registering as licensed in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel, then try rebooting your computer.

Thanks,
-Darin


----------



## darinf

arnaud said:


> I also need to restart it every 30min or so as audio suddenly gets distorted.
> It very much feels like when the dac misinterprets the sampling rate of data its been fed.
> In this case, it feels to me like some issue with resampling of the stream during convolution.
> These prirs it is using come straight from the realiser, so are sampled at 48kHz.
> ...


Yes, with some USB DAC's we are still having timing issues which manifest as distortion over time.
We have been working on finding a fix, but have been unsuccessful so far. (We even tried rewriting our processing engine with no avail.)
The problem started with High Sierra and is still present in Mojave.
Sorry guys.
-Darin


----------



## martyp87

darinf said:


> Hi @martyp87,
> Thank you for your purchase.
> The license files should be saved to your macOS account's default "Downloads" folder. That is where Out Of Your Head looks for them when Out Of Your Head is launched.
> I am not sure how your other license files could be working if they are in the "Applications" folder.
> ...



I'm not sure why although the first time I installed the app it didn't recognise the file in the downloads folder so I dropped it in the applications folder and it worked fine. Moved both and lost all of them after moving them to the downloads folder.

Restarted and now everything is working fine. (as I have an eGPU plugged in restarting my Mac is a bit of a pain so I tend to just log on/off). Thanks for your help!


----------



## edwardsean (Jan 1, 2019)

Recently I’ve had one of those marker experiences, you know, when your whole audio history flashes before your eyes. You remember your first Sony Walkman and the euphoria of discovering real audiophile gear to the present digital wonders. For me OOYH has been a big part of that “journey” scaling with all my refinements of taste and component upgrades. Each time OOYH enhanced those changes and in turn benefited, but something happened which just caused OOYH to take a dramatic leap forward.

I’ve been experimenting with DSD512 resampling lately and have been marvelously impressed with the results in general, However, it affected OOYH in a way that just truly startled me. I started with real time conversion in Audirvana Plus, HQ player, Roon, etc. The problem is that you can’t feed this into OOYH because OOYH needs a 48Khz sample rate. So, I went to off line conversion, resampling after OOYH instead of before. I captured the direct output from the OOYH mixer using a virtual output (IShowU) and tracked this in Logic to a 24bit 48Khz wav (caf). I sliced up the results with Audacity and then upconverted to DSD512 using Xivero XiSRC or AuI Converter.

What was a limitation of OOYH’s sample rate capability became a surprising benefit. What this process does is that it not only resamples the source audio at an exponentially higher rate, it resamples the effects of OOYH’s convolution. This, of course, isn’t the place to get into the raging debate over the merits of DSD. I can only tell you what I hear in my system, which is itself pretty pristine.

I’ve always loved OOYH, but of course it has its deficiencies. I alway thought that, even if you find a good preset fit, which I have, there is still a hazy, diffuse quality to the sound. This is especially apparent in the vocals which are upfront and center and need to coalesce to be convincing. This was always an issue I overlooked because of everything else that OOYH brough to the table. I can only guess at the science, but subjectively, DSD resampling has resolved this for me. The resulting transparency, clarity, and coherency has caused OOYH to cross a threshold where it really approximates a boutique speaker system. As an added benefit you can take these files mobile on a DAP. For me that was always actually the goal.

Resampling to DSD512 also has its downsides. For one you need to have a DAC that can handle native or DoP DSD512. Also, it takes enormous processing power over a long time and produces huge files (1 track = 1 - 3Gb). In the end, the success of this process will no doubt be heavily system dependent. It may be worth exploring though if you have a DSD512 capable DAC, especially because the cost of entry is low. Xivero XiSRC converter is less than $20 and Audacity and IShowU are free. For myself, after a long long road, the out of your head effect is finally complete and I just wanted to share.


----------



## Zenvota (Jan 1, 2019)

Ah, this put a smile on my face, thank you and Happy New Year.  Espacially after trying to share and discuss this program and the incredible realism of it when using hifi equipment and being responded to with a toms review that the realtek 889 built into a pc motherboard is indistinguishable from a Benchmark DAC.  Really... thank you for sharing that sounds amazing.



edwardsean said:


> Also, it takes enormous processing power over a long time and produces huge files (1 track = 1 - 3Gb).


Thats insane. And i have over 30tbs of storage space, but I have that space because I like uncompressed files and know that a system capable of rendering it can make use of that data.  I had read about dsd resampling at one point and it sounded interesting, but I didnt have the capability to experiment.  Currently I'm using an older Audio-GD NFB-7 with an ES9018 from 2013, I upgraded the usb interface though so it may be able to do dsd.  Probably not xD an extra incentive to upgrade to the newer nfb7 with dual es9038pro.



edwardsean said:


> I’ve always loved OOYH, but of course it has its deficiencies. I alway thought that, even if you find a good preset fit, which I have, there is still a hazy, diffuse quality to the sound. This is especially apparent in the vocals which are upfront and center and need to coalesce to be convincing. This was always an issue I overlooked because of everything else that OOYH brough to the table. I can only guess at the science, but subjectively, DSD resampling has resolved this for me. The resulting transparency, clarity, and coherency has caused OOYH to cross a threshold where it really approx



I found digital and mains conditioning to do this as well in my system. The addition of the Uptone ISO Regen and LPS1.2(which powers the usb to i2s board as well, which also has an isolator on the i2s side), and a topaz 91092-31 ultra line noise isolator for the dac and headamp.   This was one of those revelatory upgrades for me as well, which went from trying to use ooyh for music and finding something wanting, wondering do the amps needa heat up, is it the light dimmers in the house, the solar panels, does the program need to be restarted, to sounding really perfect, and it imparted such a shocking level of realism to the various presets.


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> Ah, this put a smile on my face, thank you and Happy New Year.  Espacially after trying to share and discuss this program and the incredible realism of it when using hifi equipment and being responded to with a toms review that the realtek 889 built into a pc motherboard is indistinguishable from a Benchmark DAC.  Really... thank you for sharing that sounds amazing.
> 
> Thats insane. And i have over 30tbs of storage space, but I have that space because I like uncompressed files and know that a system capable of rendering it can make use of that data.  I had read about dsd resampling at one point and it sounded interesting, but I didnt have the capability to experiment.  Currently I'm using an older Audio-GD NFB-7 with an ES9018 from 2013, I upgraded the usb interface though so it may be able to do dsd.  Probably not xD an extra incentive to upgrade to the newer nfb7 with dual es9038pro.
> 
> I found digital and mains conditioning to do this as well in my system. The addition of the Uptone ISO Regen and LPS1.2(which powers the usb to i2s board as well, which also has an isolator on the i2s side), and a topaz 91092-31 ultra line noise isolator for the dac and headamp.   This was one of those revelatory upgrades for me as well, which went from trying to use ooyh for music and finding something wanting, wondering do the amps needa heat up, is it the light dimmers in the house, the solar panels, does the program need to be restarted, to sounding really perfect, and it imparted such a shocking level of realism to the various presets.



Thank you for sharing too! What a brother in OOYH. Definitely, it’s about the signal to noise, don’t you think? The difficulty that people have with DSD resampling is that they keep thinking that it’s a claim to add more information to the audio file when that’s obviously impossible. What DSD resampling does is allow you to better filter out the noise, which functionally, amounts to more perceived information. With your approach of digital and power conditioning, we’re on parallel tracks.


----------



## Zenvota

edwardsean said:


> Thank you for sharing too! What a brother in OOYH. Definitely, it’s about the signal to noise, don’t you think? The difficulty that people have with DSD resampling is that they keep thinking that it’s a claim to add more information to the audio file when that’s obviously impossible. What DSD resampling does is allow you to better filter out the noise, which functionally, amounts to more perceived information. With your approach of digital and power conditioning, we’re on parallel tracks.



The idea of upgrading my dac and using dsd resampling to further improve the performance of ooyh is truly elating and exciting, and I'm grateful lol

I'm sure you've stated in this thread, but could you share what dac you use?  I've also been considering which route to go in terms of the dual es9038 or a  pcm1704uk, or some other r2r, lots of choices ;] i went with the nfb7 mostly because I found it used at a great price,  but also due to the way it and other dacs were described it sounded like it might render ooyh better, but I dont think thats necessarily true.  Espacially with what youre talking about with dsd capabilities.


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> The idea of upgrading my dac and using dsd resampling to further improve the performance of ooyh is truly elating and exciting, and I'm grateful lol
> 
> I'm sure you've stated in this thread, but could you share what dac you use?  I've also been considering which route to go in terms of the dual es9038 or a  pcm1704uk, or some other r2r, lots of choices ;] i went with the nfb7 mostly because I found it used at a great price,  but also due to the way it and other dacs were described it sounded like it might render ooyh better, but I dont think thats necessarily true.  Espacially with what youre talking about with dsd capabilities.



I currently have a Chord Hugo and a Desktop SimAudio DAC, but where all of this ended up for me is actually an iBasso DX200. This was equally surprising to me as all the rest, but I can’t seem to improve on its performance for my LCDi4s. This is not a recommendation as I think you’re looking for a full desktop unit. However, for me, right now, everything is gathering dust including my Moon Neo430HAD, except the DX200. It is one of, if not the only, DAP that can currently decode native DSD512 with its dual 9028s and I’ve been just stunned as to its performance. This is very specific to me though. As Darin knows, my end goal was always to have a high end loud speaker system portable in the palm of my hand.


----------



## Zenvota (Jan 1, 2019)

edwardsean said:


> ut where all of this ended up for me is actually an iBasso DX200. This was equally surprising to me as all the rest, but I can’t seem to improve on its performance for my LCDi4s



That's really awesome though, using ooyh or ooyh rendered tracks with that setup.  I've always been really fascinated by Audeze's in ear models but I've never had any luck with in ear fit, only those bose stayfit tips ;[

In your case the dx200 is essentially the equivalent of isolating from any sources and ac mains, and the sensitive in ears are easier to drive the complex signal from the ooyh dsd track.

I'm intrigued too, that in ears can provide the soundstage and thus virtual room size of over ears like the hd800.



edwardsean said:


> This is not a recommendation as I think you’re looking for a full desktop unit.  It is one of, if not the only, DAP that can currently decode native DSD512 with its dual 9028s and I’ve been just stunned as to its performance.



That actually does help in thats the kind of dac I'm drawn towards, dual es90xx,  very simple circuits, using the digital filters in the dac chip.
http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB_7_77/NFB7.77EN.htm
The "smaller" unit http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm
And the version that doesnt tweak harmonics
http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/AS1/AS1EN.htm

I do want the desktop unit though as i split the signal for a bass shaker system, the chest hits I get using the Cello preset scare the crap out of me sometimes.  In both movies and music, death metal digs deep 
(屮゜Д゜)屮  
The shaker system adds an extra layer of realism that I really enjoy, espacially after taking some extra steps to make sure it blended seamlessly and didn't effect the main system.


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> That's really awesome though, using ooyh or ooyh rendered tracks with that setup.  I've always been really fascinated by Audeze's in ear models but I've never had any luck with in ear fit, only those bose stayfit tips ;[
> 
> In your case the dx200 is essentially the equivalent of isolating from any sources and ac mains, and the sensitive in ears are easier to drive the complex signal from the ooyh dsd track.
> 
> ...



That’s really interesting. I use the Cello preset too!

I have Smyth A16 on preorder and when it arrives I’m going to start looking to into body shakers too, which one are you using?


----------



## Zenvota (Jan 1, 2019)

Currently just the cheap daytons
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ile-bass-shaker-transducer-20w-4-ohm--300-888

They're zip tied to the frame of the chair and manage an even vibration everywhere on the chair, seat, backrest, arm rests, head pillow(if i put my ear on the pillow I can hear the bass lines like wearing headphones, pretty neat).   And I made a detachable system with binding posts, dont know if its correct but it works.

So after splitting the signal out of the dacs xlr, i send them through  jensen isomax transformers since the dac and amp are on the isolation transformer.
https://www.parts-express.com/jense...MI4fi4u77N3wIViSaGCh0j-Q-jEAQYAyABEgK2yvD_BwE

Then into an equalizer to flatten out the response, the cheap shakers have some big peaks and valleys but its fixable.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=615031

Then a crossover
https://www.parts-express.com/art-cx310-2-way-3-way-crossover--245-880

Then a crappy cheap $10 stereo amp

I got the crossover and eq used for $30 also, since it was an experiment i didnt want to spend alot, but it ended up working very well and i havent had tbe desire to upgrade anything yet.  I was worried about putting all this budget gear in the signal chain but the isolation transformers seem to do the trick.

There are of course, quality shakers that have a much more even response and better extension.  And it may be possible to split the signal in the pc using voicemeter and virtual audio cable.
https://www.parts-express.com/clark-synthesis-tst209-tactile-transducer-bass-shaker--300-861


----------



## edwardsean

I’m a bit reluctant to post this because this feels like such rarefied territory, but for what it’s worth, I do think what Zenvota and I have been discussing is on the right track. 

I had always assumed that the haziness of the OOYH effect was due to phase artifacts and the delta in HRTF. I figured that as long as I wasn’t using a custom preset that this diffuse quality would just be the price of admission to OOYH. I’m sure that is indeed a factor and that the true solution is to get a personalized IR for Darin to create a custom preset. 

However, Smyth users have along traded their personalized presets and Smyth is setting up a commercial exchange. Someone’s else’s preset can be effective for another user. Just to reiterate there is another main source of distortion of the OOYH effect that seems to be noise. Part of that diffuse haziness seems to be system noise (EMI, RFI, etc.)

I’m becoming convinced of this because my current system is the most noise free system I’ve ever put together. Zenovata is right, being portable, I have no AC noise, no USB noise, and I’m also using active shielding on my cable. Most significantly, DSD512 has dramatically improved signal to noise. These enhancements, of course, improve SQ for all audio, but for me, the OOYH effect has responded with unique effectiveness.


----------



## Zenvota

edwardsean said:


> I’m a bit reluctant to post this because this feels like such rarefied territory, but for what it’s worth, I do think what Zenvota and I have been discussing is on the right track.
> 
> I had always assumed that the haziness of the OOYH effect was due to phase artifacts and the delta in HRTF. I figured that as long as I wasn’t using a custom preset that this diffuse quality would just be the price of admission to OOYH. I’m sure that is indeed a factor and that the true solution is to get a personalized IR for Darin to create a custom preset.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more.  The improvements brought on by the conditioning, while noticeable, were not as dramatic when listening to stereo music over headphones.  With OOYH, however, the improvements are dramatic.  I can only assume it's due to the additional information from the binaural rendering and room reflections, compounding with any noise in the system, of which there are all types, and aren't necessarily an easily perceived noise floor.  Personally I found it very interesting reading about the Uptone products(the ISO Regen and Ultracap LPS) and the ultra line noise suppressors, here and at Computer Audiophile.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/top...ansformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...ed-from-quotlps-1-troubleshootingquot-thread/

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

I understand it's marketing phoy to some, but I picked up the Topaz units for $30... hardly putting hard earned $ in a crook's hands, and the Uptone products have a 30 day return policy, plenty of time to decide if they're useful in your system or not.


----------



## edwardsean

Thanks Zenvota, that makes a lot of sense. 

For myself, I’m opening up my unit and laying down noise suppression sheeting everywhere. 

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ifm10m-025bb300x200/tdk


----------



## Zenvota

I also EQ all of my headphones to have a fairly flat response.  This could just be a personal thing, but I find the 2-5khz bump in headphones to be overly accentuated when using OOYH.  I listen to metal, so it could just be the distortion in the guitars, but I do prefer movies and other music(tested with 24/96 acoustic piano tracks, 24/192 5.1 violin concertos) with the same eq as well.
Some examples:


Spoiler: Stax SR207 EQ









Spoiler: Hifiman HE-400i







Looks like they'd sound horribly dark but treble still sparkles.

I can't find the page, but something about the Realiser using a HPEQ or headphone eq
"to invert the headphone response you plan to use so that you don't get a double HRTF (playing back PRIR without EQ over a headphone will sound harsh especially near 3 -5k)."


----------



## martyp87 (Jan 2, 2019)

The Smyth A16 demo video has me intrigued. $4k is steep but for hardware level virtualisation and being a DAC/Amp that isn't truly out of the realms of being a feasible purchase.  I would definitely want to hear it in person first with different music types etc.

With the iSines though, I have no qualms with OOYH as it has truly transformed them into something that I really love. Perhaps if I started to look into upgrading to the LCDi4s I would begin to seriously look into the A16s to really get the most out of them.


----------



## audiohobbit

darinf said:


> Hi @audiohobbit ,
> Thanks for posting.
> While you can use Out Of Your Head on a computer to watch movies, the movie has to be played back on the computer either via a disk drive, file/server, or streaming. But since computers do not generally have HDMI inputs or any other way to get multi-channel audio into the computer, it's not easy to use an external player or source.
> 
> ...


Hi Darin,

would an USB audio interface like this one do the job: https://tascam.com/us/product/us-16x08/faq
It has 8 analog line ins and can convert each of them to one ASIO channel (whatever that means...). So I decode DTS etc. with my AV-Receiver into 7.1 analog channels and feed them to this audio interface into the PC, then OOYH does its magic and outputs the 2ch processed headphone signal (also via the USB audio interface)?
Do you mean this would work?
If so, how do I tell OOYH which channel is L, C, R etc.?


----------



## whazzup

Hi Darin, just curious why there aren't more reviews of the software on tech / audio websites? Would have thought it would be pretty easy to send copies to the reviewers.


----------



## darinf

audiohobbit said:


> Hi Darin,
> 
> would an USB audio interface like this one do the job: https://tascam.com/us/product/us-16x08/faq
> It has 8 analog line ins and can convert each of them to one ASIO channel (whatever that means...). So I decode DTS etc. with my AV-Receiver into 7.1 analog channels and feed them to this audio interface into the PC, then OOYH does its magic and outputs the 2ch processed headphone signal (also via the USB audio interface)?
> ...


Hi @audiohobbit ,
Sorry about not responding sooner. Somehow I missed the notification of your post.
But in theory, that device would work. The trick would be that you would have to use "DAW" software (Digital Audio Workstation), to route the incoming audio signals to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device. Since that interface is designed for use with DAW software, you would setup each of the input channels to output to the appropriate channels and setup the Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio device as the output device in the DAW. The DAW will see the Out Of Your Head Virtual audio device as an 8 channel audio card. Then you would just "monitor" the 8 input channels in real-time so the inputs would be fed to the outputs in real-time.

I am not sure what the latency would be though for watching movies or gaming.


----------



## darinf

whazzup said:


> Hi Darin, just curious why there aren't more reviews of the software on tech / audio websites? Would have thought it would be pretty easy to send copies to the reviewers.


Hi @whazzup,
We have had some reviews in various magazines/blogs, etc.
Last year we had a review in the Absolute Sound.
I was on the Home Theater Geeks show.
There are some other reviews in various blogs sites too. You can search around for them.

But for reviews, the issue isn't so much giving reviewers copies of the software, obviously that's easy to do. The main issue is getting the reviewers to actually review it. Most reviewers have more gear or offers for review units than they have time to review. So they have to be picky about what gets reviewed. It's a very complex issue especially when you factor in advertisers etc. 

I have given away a lot of copies of Out Of Your Head, but getting the reviews is the hard part.


----------



## Zenvota (Feb 10, 2019)

darinf said:


> Hi @whazzup,
> We have had some reviews in various magazines/blogs, etc.
> Last year we had a review in the Absolute Sound.
> I was on the Home Theater Geeks show.
> ...



I try to inform some other forums(avs, ca/al, reddit) but alot of people are under the impression that headphone surround is gimmickery and I get ignored ;[

It's shame because truly this is the only affordable measured room impulse response binaural convolution available.

I try to tell people to eq 2-6khz down(if they're headphones follow the harman curve) due to the double hrtf because that seems to be the only complaint I've ever seen about ooyh or hrtf convolution in general is that it can sound a little thin/bright etc.

Thank you Darin for providing this program it's been intensely enjoyable and the sound is second to one(heh).


----------



## whazzup (Feb 13, 2019)

darinf said:


> Hi @whazzup,
> We have had some reviews in various magazines/blogs, etc.
> Last year we had a review in the Absolute Sound.
> I was on the Home Theater Geeks show.
> ...



Well PCWorld's Gordon Ung seems to be pushing the SXFi agenda quite a fair bit, maybe he'll be interested in reviewing competing products that attained audio holography nirvana, like Out of Your Head. In an ideal world where unbiased reviews do not have to mix with business concerns at least. 
There're also quite a number of youtube reviewers nowadays: Z reviews, Clavinetjunkie, Rtings, JimsReviewRoom etc. You should totally try talking to them!


----------



## whazzup

Maybe this has already been mentioned in the 70+ pages, but just want to share that Zenvota, over at the SXFi thread, provided a workaround solution for the pop and static issues OOYH has. So for people who use USB DACs, the trick is to first configure the OOYH speakers as default through the Windows sound control panel manually, rather than let the OOYH software do it automatically when it's opened. Amazing!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cre...phone-holography.869663/page-24#post-14777579 

Hi Darin, if it's not too much trouble do consider adding this to the OOYH faq or troubleshooting section.


----------



## darinf

whazzup said:


> Maybe this has already been mentioned in the 70+ pages, but just want to share that Zenvota, over at the SXFi thread, provided a workaround solution for the pop and static issues OOYH has. So for people who use USB DACs, the trick is to first configure the OOYH speakers as default through the Windows sound control panel manually, rather than let the OOYH software do it automatically when it's opened. Amazing!
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cre...phone-holography.869663/page-24#post-14777579
> 
> Hi Darin, if it's not too much trouble do consider adding this to the OOYH faq or troubleshooting section.


Wow, thanks for pointing that out. Of all the things I have tried, that's one that never occurred to me to try. I will test it out and then add it to the notes that are listed with the Out Of Your Head download link email and put it elsewhere on the website.
I will try to get that added in the next week or so.


----------



## Zenvota

whazzup said:


> Maybe this has already been mentioned in the 70+ pages, but just want to share that Zenvota, over at the SXFi thread, provided a workaround solution for the pop and static issues OOYH has. So for people who use USB DACs, the trick is to first configure the OOYH speakers as default through the Windows sound control panel manually, rather than let the OOYH software do it automatically when it's opened. Amazing!
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cre...phone-holography.869663/page-24#post-14777579
> 
> Hi Darin, if it's not too much trouble do consider adding this to the OOYH faq or troubleshooting section.





darinf said:


> Wow, thanks for pointing that out. Of all the things I have tried, that's one that never occurred to me to try. I will test it out and then add it to the notes that are listed with the Out Of Your Head download link email and put it elsewhere on the website.
> I will try to get that added in the next week or so.



Actually reading that it isnt quite right but that is worth a try too.

I was saying when getting pops to set ooyh as default in the window sound panel, cycle through the speaker layout, then set the usb dac to default that gets it for me 75% of the time.  if that doesnt work restarting the program once more syncs it 99% of the time.


----------



## whazzup

Zenvota said:


> Actually reading that it isnt quite right but that is worth a try too.
> 
> I was saying when getting pops to set ooyh as default in the window sound panel, cycle through the speaker layout, then set the usb dac to default that gets it for me 75% of the time.  if that doesnt work restarting the program once more syncs it 99% of the time.



Right, I did it differently. Not sure if it applies to integrated sound as well, but mine's a bit wonky so can't really test. 

And after some testing, I guess I spoke too soon. Did get one instance of static, will have to test further when I'm free.

There's at least 1 case I'm getting with relative consistency (still changing OOYH as default manually):
If I close the app with the mode set to Bypass, the next time I reopen it, there won't be any sound and there'll be a 'loading effects' error. Switching between the speakers presets within OOYH will then allow OOYH to work properly.


----------



## Zenvota

Cycling through the speaker layout or changing the bit/sample rate does some kind of reset with windows I think that's whats working.


----------



## johnn29

Zenvota said:


> I try to tell people to eq 2-6khz down(if they're headphones follow the harman curve) due to the double hrtf because that seems to be the only complaint I've ever seen about ooyh or hrtf convolution in general is that it can sound a little thin/bright etc.
> .



Saw your post in the SXFI thread - just tried this. I've got a pair of DT990's EQ'd in Equaliser APO with HeSuVi as the GUI to the harmen curve using  oratory1990's presets. I then cut down the 2-6khz shift in Winamp. Holy cow - music sounds good now with the Marten Coltraine Supreme 2's . This really should be an option in the actual OOYH Control Panel. Like a customisation tab.


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> Saw your post in the SXFI thread - just tried this. I've got a pair of DT990's EQ'd in Equaliser APO with HeSuVi as the GUI to the harmen curve using  oratory1990's presets. I then cut down the 2-6khz shift in Winamp. Holy cow - music sounds good now with the Marten Coltraine Supreme 2's . This really should be an option in the actual OOYH Control Panel. Like a customisation tab.



O cool glad it worked for you.  Music sounds really amazing through OOYH, I only wish I listened to genres that worked well with the more reverberant presets like the Cellos, Novas, etc.  I'm pretty confined to the Genelecs.  But watched the original Robocop the other day on the Cellos and it sounded really spectacular.  something about older movies mixed in less treated rooms maybe, they play really well with those presets.


----------



## johnn29 (Feb 14, 2019)

Also - the center channel for movies now sounds good. Before the cut it was terrible sounding. I'm using Peace GUI to chain the Harmen curve I have in HeSuVi and then apply a graphic EQ to that via Peace. Is that the best way of doing it?


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> Also - the center channel for movies now sounds good. Before the cut it was terrible sounding. I'm using Peace GUI to chain the Harmen curve I have in HeSuVi and then apply a graphic EQ to that via Peace. Is that the best way of doing it?


Maybe?  I do it all... manually? lol


----------



## phoenixdogfan

darinf said:


> Hi @whazzup,
> We have had some reviews in various magazines/blogs, etc.
> Last year we had a review in the Absolute Sound.
> I was on the Home Theater Geeks show.
> ...



Congrats, Derek.  That looks like a really good review by one of the biggest, if not the biggest, name in high end audio reviewing.  I think it fairly replicates what I find in my OOYH listening in that I find that your software (at least for me) creates externalized images and projects those images the way a very good planar system does (which I find natural and more than acceptable) rather than the way a point source system would (which I also like). Maybe that's because of the generic HRTF gives  less pinpointed images. But at least in my case, a couple of those settings do a very convincing job of replicating the convincing tonality, imaging (planar style), and sound stage of a high end speaker system playing in a real listening room. And that makes listening over headphones much more satisfying than it would otherwise be. So OOYH is always in my listening chain.


----------



## Zenvota

Anyone using OOYH with a R2R NOS dac?


----------



## Dixter

without searching the 74 pages for an answer that probably has been answered, 

 I would like to inquire as to when the software will be ported over to the iOS platform...

thanks in advance


----------



## Zenvota

edwardsean said:


> Recently I’ve had one of those marker experiences, you know, when your whole audio history flashes before your eyes. You remember your first Sony Walkman and the euphoria of discovering real audiophile gear to the present digital wonders. For me OOYH has been a big part of that “journey” scaling with all my refinements of taste and component upgrades. Each time OOYH enhanced those changes and in turn benefited, but something happened which just caused OOYH to take a dramatic leap forward.
> 
> I’ve been experimenting with DSD512 resampling lately and have been marvelously impressed with the results in general, However, it affected OOYH in a way that just truly startled me. I started with real time conversion in Audirvana Plus, HQ player, Roon, etc. The problem is that you can’t feed this into OOYH because OOYH needs a 48Khz sample rate. So, I went to off line conversion, resampling after OOYH instead of before. I captured the direct output from the OOYH mixer using a virtual output (IShowU) and tracked this in Logic to a 24bit 48Khz wav (caf). I sliced up the results with Audacity and then upconverted to DSD512 using Xivero XiSRC or AuI Converter.
> 
> ...


Got real time pcm to dsd512 conversion working with jriver. On an i3 8350k it takes 30% of total processing power O.o 

So I'm in agreement with @edwardsean on this. Even on a nfb11 with hifiman he400i, what it does to the more reverberant room settings, like say the jmlab nova utopias, when listening to metal and watching action movies is just incredible, this was the last layer of hash that was preventing me from enjoying those presets with that material. With more relaxed music, solo instruments classical, synthy stuff, pink floyd, I could listen to on any preset, but my death and black metal not so much lol and even movies too. When I'd try to listen to those more reverberant room presets with that material it just never sounded great(in comparison not in general), hazeys a good description, it sounded neat, especially the jmlabs because its so far out in front, but I always found myself switching back to the Genelecs for fidelity. Everything was checked off system wise(an accurate inverse headphone eq, excellent planar transducers, excellent circuits, full isolation and conditioning) so I assumed it just wasn't a good fit(the music and the more reverberant room presets. But the complete naturalness/transparency/w.e you want to call it, of the virtualization after converting to dsd512 is downright spooky.

And of course just to be thorough, I turned it all off, went back to pcm, tried the same music on the jmlab utopias, and pfft switched back to the genelecs. With dsd512 for the first time when listening to metal on that preset I got lost in it. Every time before that and now after as well, even after forcing myself to listen for a few minutes and try to acclimate with the preset I could never enjoy it(again just with a certain kind of music).

I can only imagine how this would sound on my main system, unfortunately that dac can't do dsd without a clock change, but an Audio-GD D-27(dual ess9038pro) is in my future.  The difference between the nfb11 and nfb7 is quite similar to the dsd conversion, much more natural and speakerlike.

Note, you dont need a $10,000 dac for this... Jriver is like, $50 and has a 1 month trial...

A comparison could be made to 4k hdr conversions of 2k sdr material. Observabley better detail and contrast due to more advanced algorithms and displays.


----------



## musicreo

If resampling  have such an impact on the sound than probably something is wrong with the resampling.


----------



## Zenvota

musicreo said:


> If resampling  have such an impact on the sound than probably something is wrong with the resampling.


Share positive experience with Out of Your Head, "All VSS is a gimmick, just use Dolby Headphone".

Share positive experience with planar magnetic transducers, "Headphone speed/responsiveness is a gimmick, just use Sennheiser HDXXX".

Share positive experience with a good dac, "All dacs are gimmicks, just use a Behringer UCA222".

Share positive experience with DSD, "DSD is a gimmick, just use 16/44 pcm."

There seems to be a trend with audio skeptics and objectivists. Bias.

Give in to Madness.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Zenvota said:


> There seems to be a trend with audio skeptics and objectivists. Bias.



I blame reddit & its horde of uneducated broke college kids that watch a video on youtube & consider themselves experts.


----------



## johnn29 (Jun 25, 2019)

Been using OOYH exclusively these days with various headphones EQ'd to a Harmen target or USound for inear. The Marten Coltrean preset with a -9db EQ at 2000 and -4000 is some of the best audio I've ever heard on anything.

I keep going back and forth between my KEF R, LS50 and B&W 803 setups but the Marten Coltrean OOYH preset sounds better in many ways. Combine that with Auto EQ/Hesuvi so that you can EQ your earphones and use any means rather than having to worry about how the headphones sound I can pick my preference based on the situation - extreme noise cancelling for public transport or when my house is being refurbished (WI-1000x), comfort and less fatigue (XM3's), when I need to pay attention to my surroundings or carry a conversation (Grado GW100 BT open backs). What's even better is that all are wireless. I have a dual Quake 10B transducers to handle the tacticle impact. And what's even better with the noise cancellers is that you can jack up the transducers to roller coaster maximum and there's no mechanical noise from the sofa vibrating! With loud speakers I have to keep it in check otherwise it spoils the sound

Not to mention with ANC headphones your dynamic range gets a massive boost. I can hear things in movie sound tracks that's really subtle atmospherics - birds chirping and the like.

I was on holiday recently and after a couple of tiring days I just wanted to zonk and watch a movie. I donned my Goovis Cingano VR headset and WI-1000x in my airbnb to watch a 3D Blu-ray. The sound combined with the 3D visuals just transported me into a 3D cinema. All the other synthetic systems like Atmos or DTS:X and even waves just don't get the center channel right. It makes commuting so much more enjoyable with a Samsung OLED laptop/tablet.

None of the other presets sound anywhere near as good to me. But I think they are good approximations for those rooms - they just don't suit my personal preference for loud speakers.

It's been quite a journey to get here - it's not really something you can pull off the shelf and start with. Super X-Fi is attempting to do that, but I find their preset sounds like a real room but with cheaper speakers. But I've reached my audio nirvana.

Shame the number of presets has died down recently - hoping Mr. Fong can measure some new great rooms.


----------



## Zenvota (Jun 25, 2019)

johnn29 said:


> I have a dual Quake 10B transducers to handle the tacticle impact. And what's even better with the noise cancellers is that you can jack up the transducers to roller coaster maximum and there's no mechanical noise from the sofa vibrating! With loud speakers I have to keep it in check otherwise it spoils the sound



The tactile transducers make such a big difference in externalization and adding a naturalness to the virtualization.  I use them on my surround system as well, I decouple the subwoofers with sorbothane and return the shakes with the... shakers xD bombastic lows without bothering anyone outside the room.

How are you sending the signal to the shakers? Multiple bluetooth signals?



johnn29 said:


> Not to mention with ANC headphones your dynamic range gets a massive boost. I can hear things in movie sound tracks that's really subtle atmospherics - birds chirping and the like.



I love this about my headphone systems.  Incredible micro detail paired with amazing fidelity and at comfortable listening levels with no range compression.  I've been in alot of commercial and home theaters and no loudspeaker system has been able to compare.  Even in a dead silent room at reference listening levels.



johnn29 said:


> with a -9db EQ at 2000 and -4000


Just a single big bell huh... my eqs have gotten complicated Dx


Spoiler: Audeze EL-8










Spoiler: Hifiman HE-400i






But they sound perfect =/



johnn29 said:


> donned my Goovis Cingano VR headset and WI-1000x in my airbnb to watch a 3D Blu-ray.


Awesome!  Atmos/DTS:X soundtracks +3d is really fun but there's not alot of it.



johnn29 said:


> It's been quite a journey to get here - it's not really something you can pull off the shelf and start with.


Aint that the truth, but worth all the effort.


----------



## johnn29 (Jun 27, 2019)

Zenvota said:


> The tactile transducers make such a big difference in externalization and adding a naturalness to the virtualization.  I use them on my surround system as well, I decouple the subwoofers with sorbothane and return the shakes with the... shakers xD bombastic lows without bothering anyone outside the room.
> 
> How are you sending the signal to the shakers? Multiple bluetooth signals?



Bit complicated:


I use a sound card with optical out into a 5 way optical splitter.
One of the splits goes to a Bluetooth transmitter for the headphones,
Other to a optical to RCA transmitter.
The RCA then goes into a lip sync delay device so that I can add a variable 0-500ms delay so the transducers signal lines up with the bluetooth which could be anywhere from 40ms to 330ms delay. Rtings makes this so much easier to line up.
The other splits are for anyone else who wants to listen. The only time I can see me listening on headphones with others is when it's a heatwave. The portable AC unit we have makes noise and the Class A amps in the SR6012 make my theater turn into an oven.
The problem then is I don't get clean LFE/bass output. With headphones that need heavy cuts in the bass section to track the Harmen curve it's an issue, e.g. my XM3s. So to avoid that I use a Creative USB BT transmitter to the headphones which has the EQ/HRTF and the clean soundcard output to the transducers. Mpc-BE has dual audio output, and voilla.

See: complicated!

It's a single bell for now! I've tried experimenting with various slopes and widths but it's really hard to EQ by ear. I'm just thankful you recommended that I cut that region because that was the missing part really. Without those cuts the sound signature just isn't right.


What's really frustrating is that there's no open source Atmos/DTS;X decoder so we'll never get height effects. Darrin would have to re-record all those rooms anyway and I can't really see how he could add them on the preset I like. It's easy to spin around on to get the HRTF for rear and sides, but you can't do the same with heights.

And yes, it's very worthwhile. What I've liked about this journey so far is that it all came from a neighbor complaining about bass. I've never had any complaints before but I was playing the space shuttle take off scene in an IMAX documentary which has extreme bass. After that I got anxious that I'd never be able to turn my HT to reference again, so I must find a solution! About 12 headphone purchases later, learning about HRTF, trialing out different presets in HeSuVi and finally getting OOYH and the treble cut together it's complete. Meanwhile I have no neighbors anymore. But the flexibilty of headphones and the quality I've gotten means it wasn't a waste of time


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> I use a sound card with optical out into a 5 way optical splitter.


Never even thought of that that's amazing.  Two ways I've tried so far are splitting the signal out of a dac(rca or xlr) and using voicemeter.  I'll have to look into that more.


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## Zenvota (Jun 27, 2019)

I immediately bought a cheap optical splitter to try on one my systems xD



johnn29 said:


> it all came from a neighbor complaining about bass. I've never had any complaints before but I was playing the space shuttle take off scene in an IMAX documentary which has extreme bass.



I know it I can shake the house next door with the THX Eclipse demo.  You may want to look into this as well, isolating the subwoofers from the floor with sorbothane + your shakers, very good alternative to no sub bass at all xD



johnn29 said:


> What's really frustrating is that there's no open source Atmos/DTS;X decoder so we'll never get height effects.



Ive been waiting for an atmos decoder and windows to be able to output height channels, I have a glorius vision for a 9channel+ loudspeaker system of splitting the signal off with voicemeter to multiple systems via usb to usb/optical converters(with a TCXO and good psu of course, and hub like the Regen), to r2r nos nonfeedback current signal class a dac/amps all on separate ultra isolators, using speakers with Raals and Scanspeaks.  Sonic. Perfection.  Eat it Arcam.


----------



## Dixter

Thinking Darin uses the Smyth A8 for the room captures...  the A8 won't do Atmos..  that version, the A16 is due out anyday now...  then you get to have rooms with 16 speakers so the height channels will be available...


----------



## johnn29 (Jul 5, 2019)

So I tried Impulcifier today after buying the USB DAW and binural mics. I'm really impressed with the result - it's by far the best externalisation I've gotten, even better than the previous OOYH I loved. I took the measurements in my office with my LS50 setup, it's a bit of a reflective room so when I A vs B I sometimes prefer the sound signature of the OOYH preset I like but I can always improve my room. But in principle this is going to be a real game changer.

I've attached the FR correction it does for your headphones so you can see some sample output.

Only thing is you need to use it with an over-ear headphone - IEM's won't work because you can't use a binural mic with them


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> So I tried Impulcifier today after buying the USB DAW and binural mics. I'm really impressed with the result - it's by far the best externalisation I've gotten, even better than the previous OOYH I loved. I took the measurements in my office with my LS50 setup, it's a bit of a reflective room so when I A vs B I sometimes prefer the sound signature of the OOYH preset I like but I can always improve my room. But in principle this is going to be a real game changer.
> 
> I've attached the FR correction it does for your headphones so you can see some sample output.
> 
> Only thing is you need to use it with an over-ear headphone - IEM's won't work because you can't use a binural mic with them


Ah very cool, I remember Jaakko talking about this.  @jaakkopasanen Maybe a dedicated thread for this?  Read through the guide will definately be getting the mics and trying this.


----------



## jaakkopasanen

I'm thrilled to see people being interested in my humble project. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order, I'm very interested in hearing how it works for other people. There is already a thread in sound science but that discussion is probably a bit too technical for some people.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

jaakkopasanen said:


> I'm thrilled to see people being interested in my humble project. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order, I'm very interested in hearing how it works for other people. There is already a thread in sound science but that discussion is probably a bit too technical for some people.


Sounds very interesting.  Now if you could figure out a way to include head tracking in the package.


----------



## Zenvota

jaakkopasanen said:


> I'm thrilled to see people being interested in my humble project. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order, I'm very interested in hearing how it works for other people. There is already a thread in sound science but that discussion is probably a bit too technical for some people.


Ah yup
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/


----------



## jaakkopasanen

phoenixdogfan said:


> Sounds very interesting.  Now if you could figure out a way to include head tracking in the package.



I'm going to look into it. I just hope I don't have to fork and extend EqualizerAPO myself. They head tracking part of shouldn't be a problem but updating EqualizerAPO live fast enough might. In any case this is not a immediate future thing.


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> I use a sound card with optical out into a 5 way optical splitter.


This works great btw.

I set up a very simple affordable system using a $20 usb to optical converter, a $10 optical splitter, a $10 optical dac, and a $25 Lepai LP-168HA which has a separate subwoofer output with a crossover for the tactile transducers.  Zip tied 2 $10 shakers to the frame of a desk chair and good to go.

Thanks for mentioning that, don't know why I didn't know about them Xd  Nice not having to use voicemeter(much increased latency) or worry about any ground loops with rca y cables.


----------



## johnn29

Around 2015 I had collected a ton of optical equipment - cables, splitters caps etc. Since my home theater / loud speaker setup had migrated to HDMI I thought I was never going to use it and threw them all out. This year I re-ordered everything because it's the best way of getting signal to everything with no latency or ground issues! Glad you've tweaked your setup. I finally got my mini quake put on my office chair - really like it for music.

2019 seems to be the age where speaker virtuslisation really took off. It laid sanguine for years - since the 90s really with synthesized solutions. OOYH came out but it was very difficult to find a preset that worked. Smyth research's products just aren't available but Super X-FI and Impulcifier have kicked things into gear!


----------



## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> . I finally got my mini quake put on my office chair


I've wondered about better and more powerful transducers on lightweight chairs, but I guess levels being the same you're getting a smoother response and deeper extension so there shouldnt be any hesitation to upgrade ;]



johnn29 said:


> OOYH came out but it was very difficult to find a preset that worked


Truly I feel every preset works, but for really impressive fidelity some efforts required with the headphone eq, some hrtf/channel balance, and using equipment capable of rendering all that information with a completely noise free system.



johnn29 said:


> Glad you've tweaked your setup


I had asked around a while back about splitting/duplicating a digital signal, but no one was aware of the optical route apparently.  Its definitely a great option for getting the signal to shakers, and even to your headphone systems dac, but I notice a big big boost in detail and naturalness of the virtualization using an isolated well powered usb to i2s stage, so my main system stays with voicemeter, but my little backup mini theater that I use occasionally is perfectly enjoyable with the optical connection.


----------



## johnn29 (Jul 9, 2019)

The reason I was saying it doesn't work is because I've heard what the different ear mappings on SXFI get you in terms of sound signature. Localisation for me is there on most of the OOYH presets - some better than others - but the sound signature is off. It's the same with SXFI - on some of the mappings its created it just sounds like a really bad room with poor speakers. On a couple it sounds extremely good. The problem with all this is that it's so dependent on your ears. Impulcifier has the clear advantage here - but the weakness is your room. But I understand virtual "room correction" is forthcoming. I suspect the measurement process for any of these systems doesn't capture everything so your brains ability to process out reflections is compromised (Toole's work), so the headphone experience will always sound worse than the real loud speakers unless some sort of room correction is done.

With transducers it really depends on your seats too. I have dual Quake 10B's on my main sofa which reclines. When you're reclined you get a nice even distribution of shaking and the power that the XJ-700R feeding them has is incredible for movies. I used to strap two of the big quakes on a single Ikea pong chair - it had the power to move you forward during intense bass scenes like the IMAX Hubble space shuttle take off. It's changed my movie watching forever. For music a mini is sufficient though.


----------



## Zenvota

I wonder how much is just the sound signature of the speakers in the room and how much is the differences in hrtfs.  When I look at graphs like these, I feel that its the former, but you're experience with Impulcifier may contradict that.

Here, a speaker that essentially measures flat in an anechoic chamber before and after room correction, still has a far from flat response



and here various hrtfs for the most part are fairly close below 5khz


I don't want it to seem like Im diminishing the impact of custom measurements though for sure its the one major thing thats missing in my system.  But after upgrading equipment and doing some manual eq, the different tonal signature of the various presets are enjoyable.  What would be great is if we can apply the measurements from impulcifier to ooyh and have access to all these rooms.  Like the realisers exchange program.

Heres the eq for my audeze el8s with the dekoni velour pads, and aside from the headphone eq I think I'm probably adjusting a little bit for hrtf with the genelc preset, the left channel has a bit of bass roll off, the right treble, and im reducing the right channel by 2db in ooyh, but with those changes the bass is even and the center channel is center, this eq carries over to other presets as well with only doing channel balance in ooyh.


Spoiler: Audeze EL8


----------



## Zenvota (Jul 9, 2019)

johnn29 said:


> I suspect the measurement process for any of these systems doesn't capture everything so your brains ability to process out reflections is compromised (Toole's work), so the headphone experience will always sound worse than the real loud speakers unless some sort of room correction is done.


Yes our brains and ears can process an insane amount of information, but heres where I come back to equipment.  This is the very thing that has improved drastically with specific circuits, transducers, and digital/power conditioning, the naturalness of the reflections, as the system is able to render more information.  Think in terms of a feedback tube amp with heavy dynamic drivers not rendering all the detail due to slower circuits and slower transducers.

 and maybe much in the way that i keep my budget shakers at lower levels and you can strap 2 quake 10bs to a paper chair lol


----------



## johnn29

I tried that out with my Audeze Mobius - so Planar Magnetic headphones with an integrated amp - I couldn't hear any difference compared with OOYH over BT or DT990's driven by a Xonarr USB card. But I know Darrin mentioned on the Home Theater Geeks podcast he was on that Electrostats were the best at rendering all the information.

The Realiser Exchange program type thing would be amazing, I'm sure something like that will be done.

What's good though is the externalization is definitely there in OOYH, Impulcifier, Super X-Fi. The rest just seems to be what sound signature I prefer. Even with SXFI I find that the preset that has crazy realistic channel placements is great for movies, but the bang on imagining almost sounds like running my AVR in Dolby Surround:Music without the rear effects - it puts the center stereo into the center speaker so some mixes just collapse to that. But I prefer another mapping for music that kind of muddies the stereo image but is worse for good stereo mixes or movies. So the additional processing would be very welcome when it's here with Impulcifier. I don't think SXFI will ever offer that.


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## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> I tried that out with my Audeze Mobius - so Planar Magnetic headphones with an integrated amp - I couldn't hear any difference compared with OOYH over BT or DT990's driven by a Xonarr USB card. But I know Darrin mentioned on the Home Theater Geeks podcast he was on that Electrostats were the best at rendering all the information.



I have the Mobius as well, its the only bluetooth headphone I use, with a pad change a little extra eq and a little ambience boost they sound very good, but cant do what either of the desktop setups do, even with OOYH instead of waves. And I haven't heard a modeled renderer that sounds as natural and spacious as the measured stuff, so looking forward to trying impulcifier.

Im more refering to using crazy technical setups xD balanced non feedback current signal class a dac/amps, with a usb to i2s stage isolated from the pc regenerated regulated and reclocked, isolation transformers and quadrapole cabling. I'll detail it maybe you'll find it interesting =/

My home office rig that gets all the music time sounds more or less perfect, incredibly natural sounding virtualization, perfect tonality, massive imaging, all the descriptors ;]
This system consists of:
Headphone: Audeze EL-8 balanced with Dekoni LCD Velour pads
DAC: Audio-GD NFB-7(single es9018 chip)
Amp: Audio-GD NFB-1AMP, current signal interconnects between the 2.
the usb to i2s stage consists of an uptone iso regen, powered by an Uptone Ultracap and the Uptone SMPS, with a quadrapole(star quad) dc cable, and the ultracap also powers the dacs usb to i2s board which has an isolator on the i2s output.
power conditioning with a Topaz Ultra Isolator Line Noise Suppressor and quadrapole ac power cabling(VH Audio Flavor 4

My work office system is a bit less and while it sounds very good( much better than the mobius for instance) it isnt able to render the perfect naturalness of the main system:
Headphone: Hifiman HE-400i, single ended, dekoni lcd velour pads, sorbothane lined cups, custom rear grills with large open cell foam, melamine fuzzors on the rear magnets. This eliminated alot of resonance and really improved the tonality/timber of the virtualization.
Dac/Amp: Audio-GD NFB-11
usb stage is an Uptone USB Regen powered by a Jameco regulated linear psu into a lt3042, with a quadrapole dc cable to the regen, to a Breeze DU-U8 usb to optical converter, and optical to the dac
power conditioning is a topaz ultra isolator and vh audio cable.

I also have an Audio-GD nfb12 with the optical splitter setup to the shaker system as a backup for occasional movie watching when I can't use the surround system and that unit has no conditioning and suffers from sibilance, boomy voices, etc. all the negative effects of ac noise optical jitter phy noise phase noise etc. But it still sounds much better than using the pc motherboard, a denon x4200w, a jds odac/o2, any topping/aune/cambridge feedback op amp ic w.e, due to the audio gd amplifiers. I prefer this unit with just an optical connection, with OOYH and the alpha primes to the Mobius as well.

But hey, Im not encouraging anyone to go out and spend thousands of dollars on this stuff, only sharing for those that find it interesting, and encouraging people to look at circuit design, signal integrity and bandwidth, and all the various forms of noise. Some simple tweaks and choosing the right components can make a world of difference. Just as you hear an improvement with a better pair of headphones, adding an eq, or correcting hrtf, the circuit from the pc to the transducers is equally important.

Its interesting that you couldnt hear any difference between the mobius and dt990s + xonar card, was this with no eq? With the Mobius over bluetooth, what codec was used to connect to the pc? regardless this adds compression which will reduce the effectiveness of the virtualization. I tried a plethora of dynamics and not one came close to the hifimans, for me they actually sounded bad in comparison, and I generally prefer dynamics for normal headphone listening(I like the HD650s).


----------



## johnn29

Wow that's an intricate setup! I suspect my ears/brain don't hear the power conditioning issues in my setup. Unless it's ground hum. But I also can't hear the difference between 320kbps mp3 and FLAC on any of my setups - so it's my brain.

The DT990 is always EQ'd. I use oratory1990's result to EQ to Harmen - otherwise they have horrific sounding treble. Whenever I test between different headsets I make sure I EQ to the Harmen Target. That's likely why I have to use the simple treble bell cuts to make them sound decent - because the Harmen EQ isn't flat for HRTF. Mobius was over USB. I love the warm preset on that with Waves just for music - doesn't have a great center channel but works well for music. I should add - I'm using impulse recording of OOYH (all digital) because I simply couldn't get the software working on my laptop without blue screening. It also makes A vs B much easier to do in HeSuVi.

On my other Bluetooth setups I just use an optical USB transmitter that supports Apt X HD or LL plugged into a cheap Turtle Beach USB sound card I had laying around that has optical out.

What I've really understood since playing with SXFI and Impulcifier is how important the Headphone Compensation really is. SXFI really doesn't sound "right" without a supported pair of headphones. I tried to use my WI-1000x's with it (unsupported) with various EQ settings and it sounded off. Soon as I used my MDR-1000x, which is supported, boom - it was bang on. In using Impulcifier I've got mutliple headphone compensations now - and when cycling quickly in HeSuVi you can really tell what a dramatic different it makes. Even the L and R being level matched has a big impact on the location of the stereo image and even sound signature. From oratory1990's measurement of my WI-1000x I know there's a channel imbalance, but only at 2khz-4khz. I've tried to do it before with tones but it's so much easier when it's automated or you have measurements. It's a shame OOYH doesn't have that as a feature.


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## castleofargh

johnn29 said:


> Harmen


Harman(or maybe we can call it Samsung curve now ^_^), from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Harman


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## Zenvota

johnn29 said:


> I'm using impulse recording of OOYH (all digital) because I simply couldn't get the software working on my laptop without blue screening. It also makes A vs B much easier to do in HeSuVi.


Ah ok thats it, OOYH sounds much _much_ better than hesuvis ooyh preset.  I believe it's due to the preset was captured from the output of ooyh as opposed to using the actual impulse response.  

Had you tried asking Darin about the blue screens?



johnn29 said:


> I've tried to do it before with tones but it's so much easier when it's automated or you have measurements. It's a shame OOYH doesn't have that as a feature.



Ya its tricky, manually eqing the el8s I used innerfidelitys graph, clarityfidelity/speakerphones graph, a graph of the difference of the lcd2s with and without the dekoni lcd velour pads, frequency sweeps, and listening to music.  In some cases even 2db off was noticeablely distracting for some frequencies, mostly 2khz to 10khz.


----------



## darinf

johnn29 said:


> I should add - I'm using impulse recording of OOYH (all digital) because I simply couldn't get the software working on my laptop without blue screening. It also makes A vs B much easier to do in HeSuVi.


Hi @john29 Not sure if you reached out to me already or not regarding your problems with Out Of Your Head.
But usually BSOD's are a result of a corrupted installation or having multiple instances of the Out Of Your Head driver when attempting to install and uninstall multiple times. It's not supposed to happen, but sometimes you can get into a weird state where the Out Of Your Head driver does not uninstall completely.

In any case, we are usually able to solve any BSOD problems. I am also happy to schedule a remote support session where I can control your computer remotely to troubleshoot or fix the issue.
Thanks,
-Darin


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## phoenixdogfan (Jul 12, 2019)

johnn29 said:


> The reason I was saying it doesn't work is because I've heard what the different ear mappings on SXFI get you in terms of sound signature. Localisation for me is there on most of the OOYH presets - some better than others - but the sound signature is off. It's the same with SXFI - on some of the mappings its created it just sounds like a really bad room with poor speakers. On a couple it sounds extremely good. The problem with all this is that it's so dependent on your ears. Impulcifier has the clear advantage here - but the weakness is your room. But I understand virtual "room correction" is forthcoming. I suspect the measurement process for any of these systems doesn't capture everything so your brains ability to process out reflections is compromised (Toole's work), so the headphone experience will always sound worse than the real loud speakers unless some sort of room correction is done.
> 
> With transducers it really depends on your seats too. I have dual Quake 10B's on my main sofa which reclines. When you're reclined you get a nice even distribution of shaking and the power that the XJ-700R feeding them has is incredible for movies. I used to strap two of the big quakes on a single Ikea pong chair - it had the power to move you forward during intense bass scenes like the IMAX Hubble space shuttle take off. It's changed my movie watching forever. For music a mini is sufficient though.



That attempt to capture real systems playing in real space which both OOYH and Smyth and now (I think) impulsifier are doing could be the real weakness of these systems.  Think about it.  Your headphones play full range without crossovers, and in most cases people are extremely happy with the sonic signature/voicing of those phones, and while they don't create the OOYH effect of something playing in a real room, they don't have the drawbacks regarding directivity/room interaction that all those real speakers have.  So, why would you want to change the voicing of your phones by having them mimic a transducer which probably has a poor crossover, bad room acoustics, poor directivity, etc.

Isn't the next step forward  to create a digital room and virtualize your own headphones with their exact sonic signature into that space with as many virtual speakers as you want?  Moreover, why use in-ear microphones with their terrible S/N and distortion performance to capture your HRTF.  HRTF is all about the topology of your head, ears, and body, and there is no theoretical reason why it can't be captured with the utmost precision with some kind of visual measurement system (and it would only have to be done once if we separate the HRTF from the speaker/room emulation).

A system modeled on these features could be a great deal simpler as well.  Obviously headtracking would still be needed, and room virtualization and HRTF correction, and multichannel binaural mixing would be needed--but all that stuff is now available from one vendor or another. It just needs to be packaged as a single piece of software that runs on a Windows box and a MAC and sold along with a headtracking unit that connects to you pc via usb.


----------



## johnn29

When I get some time I'll give OOYH another install and get it working.

I was obviously making a big mistake trying to use a Harman Target curve with any HRTF. Flat is what's needed - you can use AutoEQ to compute a flat EQ for your headphones from various measurement sources - I found the sound bang on after that. No need to tweak EQ. What I was obviously doing before was using a curve that had a built in boost in the treble range, then EQing the treble down to make it sound right. 

Darrin - might be worth suggesting that or building an EQ to apply the flat target in your software?

phoenixdogfan - I agree completely - Impulcifier's author has virtual room correction forthcoming. In principle a virtual room should blow away a real room.


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## castleofargh

not long ago someone showed me a demo of Spat Revolution from Flux, which is exactly what you're talking about in term of creating a virtual room. it's mostly virtual speakers to real speakers kind of simulations, but there are a few binaural options where it seemed that one could even import his HRTF file to use for the virtual speakers converted to headphone stereo instead of some standard HRTF used most of the time on surround stuff and basic head tracking solutions like Waves NX.
as I said somewhere else, it's a production tool, and the price isn't fun. but just to say that such solutions do exist already. now you have to use built in models or bring your own, which brings us to the second part: measuring sound VS making a model for 3D scan.
as far as I know, measurements are still the most effective/accurate way to go. probably in part because even 3D models must have been built based on acoustic measurements, putting them one step further in term of approximation of an approximation. but at some point obviously it will be the other way around as we ideally would get rid of issues with placement, noises, and mic calibration. it just doesn't seem like we're there yet.


----------



## jaakkopasanen

phoenixdogfan said:


> That attempt to capture real systems playing in real space which both OOYH and Smyth and now (I think) impulsifier are doing could be the real weakness of these systems.  Think about it.  Your headphones play full range without crossovers, and in most cases people are extremely happy with the sonic signature/voicing of those phones, and while they don't create the OOYH effect of something playing in a real room, they don't have the drawbacks regarding directivity/room interaction that all those real speakers have.  So, why would you want to change the voicing of your phones by having them mimic a transducer which probably has a poor crossover, bad room acoustics, poor directivity, etc.
> 
> Isn't the next step forward  to create a digital room and virtualize your own headphones with their exact sonic signature into that space with as many virtual speakers as you want?  Moreover, why use in-ear microphones with their terrible S/N and distortion performance to capture your HRTF.  HRTF is all about the topology of your head, ears, and body, and there is no theoretical reason why it can't be captured with the utmost precision with some kind of visual measurement system (and it would only have to be done once if we separate the HRTF from the speaker/room emulation).
> 
> A system modeled on these features could be a great deal simpler as well.  Obviously headtracking would still be needed, and room virtualization and HRTF correction, and multichannel binaural mixing would be needed--but all that stuff is now available from one vendor or another. It just needs to be packaged as a single piece of software that runs on a Windows box and a MAC and sold along with a headtracking unit that connects to you pc via usb.



It's true that speakers imprint some of their problems to impulse response measurement but also some, like harmonic distortion, are negated quite well by the exponential sine sweep technique. I don't know what kind of effects crossover perfomance and directivity have on the impulse response and how these could be compensated for. Room acoustics on the other hand has direct effect on the impulse response and many of us don't have great rooms because certain compromises have to made when building a listening room. The nice thing about this is that you don't actually have own the room or the speakers if you know a place where you can go and do the measurement once, just like OOYH does. Another fortunate consequence of speaker and room virtualization is that cross-talk and causality are not problems for room correction. For example in a real room you cannot have separate equalization curves for left and right because both ears will hear sound from all speakers. In a virtualized system this is possible because impulse responses to each ear are separated and can therefore be equalized separately. It should even be possible to negate standing waves from the impulse responses with a bandpass filter which tracks the sine sweep although I haven't tried this yet so can't say if there will be practical reasons why this wouldn't work.

Genelec has actually just announced their service for generating a HRTF from a video which goes 360 around your head. There is a thread about it here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/genelec-aural-id.903304/. Unfortunately it's 500€ plus VAT. While it might work quite well at least one problem remains: headphone compensation. Obviously HRTF generated from a video won't compensate for the frequency response of your headphones. Even an eq curve made from publically available curves won't solve the problem completely because headphones have variation between units and what worse variation between left and right side drivers of the same headphone. This might seem like nitpicking but we are not talking about how 3D model based HRTF could overcome the limitations of acoustical measurements so we can't ignore the unit variance.

Hefio advertizes that they are working on "a new generation individualized headphone calibration technology that delivers greater tonal & spatial accuracy in sound reproduction than any other commercial solution available today." It's hard to say what this is exactly because they haven't announced anything yet. Earlier they built an IEM which does pretty much exactly what Nuraphone does so they certainly have the knowledge to build a headphone calibration system which could be used with 3D based HRTFs. Hefio was previosly (and maybe still is) partnering with Genelec and IDA Audio so this could actually be exactly what they are doing. Time will tell.

Until we have an affordable product which ties all this together, acoustic measurements serve as very good approximation of the speaker-room system with potential for virtual room correction that surpasses all physical rooms.


----------



## arnaud

phoenixdogfan said:


> Isn't the next step forward  to create a digital room and virtualize your own headphones with their exact sonic signature into that space with as many virtual speakers as you want?  Moreover, why use in-ear microphones with their terrible S/N and distortion performance to capture your HRTF.  HRTF is all about the topology of your head, ears, and body, and *there is no theoretical reason why it can't be captured with the utmost precision with some kind of visual measurement system* (and it would only have to be done once if we separate the HRTF from the speaker/room emulation).
> 
> A system modeled on these features could be a great deal simpler as well.  Obviously headtracking would still be needed, and room virtualization and HRTF correction, and multichannel binaural mixing would be needed--but all that stuff is now available from one vendor or another. It just needs to be packaged as a single piece of software that runs on a Windows box and a MAC and sold along with a headtracking unit that connects to you pc via usb.



I wish it were that simple. I can make HRTFs simulations rather easily but half the battle is the acoustic impedance of the surfaces (not just the geometry). Perhaps there are approximate values that can be used (maybe some published papers that validated ear canal SPL predictions against test data?) but I am not aware of them ( and I wonder if such impedance data also varies very much among individuals...).


----------



## royster

johnn29 said:


> When I get some time I'll give OOYH another install and get it working.
> 
> I was obviously making a big mistake trying to use a Harman Target curve with any HRTF. Flat is what's needed - you can use AutoEQ to compute a flat EQ for your headphones from various measurement sources - I found the sound bang on after that. No need to tweak EQ. What I was obviously doing before was using a curve that had a built in boost in the treble range, then EQing the treble down to make it sound right.
> 
> ...



Hi, Can you explain how you applied a flat EQ to headphones using AutoEQ? Im using an hd650 btw, but im assuming its the same method for all headphones (provided you have measurements for the headphone)


----------



## Ripley

royster said:


> Hi, Can you explain how you applied a flat EQ to headphones using AutoEQ? Im using an hd650 btw, but im assuming its the same method for all headphones (provided you have measurements for the headphone)



I would also like to know how to do that.


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## jaakkopasanen

royster said:


> Hi, Can you explain how you applied a flat EQ to headphones using AutoEQ? Im using an hd650 btw, but im assuming its the same method for all headphones (provided you have measurements for the headphone)


After installing you would do:

python frequency_response.py --input_dir="oratory1990/data/onear/Sennheiser HD 650" --output_dir="my_results/oratory1990/Sennheiser HD 650 flat" --compensation="compensation/zero.csv" --equalize --parametric_eq --max_filters=5+5 --bass_boost=0

Bass boost should not be needed since good rooms have this naturally. If more bass is desided it can be boosted by --bass_boost=4 or any dB value.

Word of warning: flat is most probably not what is wanted here. Equalizing headphones flat will remove (among other things) the 3 kHz peak which is created by ear canal resonance and is not included in the HRIRs. I guess in some cases flat might sound better if the original HRIR happens to have wonky frequency response, like have way too much energy around 3 kHz. Normally Harman target would be the best guess, or perhaps diffuse field. However I don't know how OOYH HRIRs are measured and if they contain any headphone compensation of their own. If I were to publish HRIRs I would make sure they sound right with neutral headphones ie. Harman target equalized headphones.


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## martyp87 (Nov 16, 2019)

I've switched computers since last using this software and had issues on OS X (10.14) whereby the audio would become distorted after say 15 mins of use.

Currently have this software installed on 10.15 although only have the trial running (will need to email for new keys) which works ok for the first 2 mins until the notice pops up. However, just wondering if I'd be better off running this app in Windows 10 instead?  I love the software for watching movies/TV shows so I've been missing it for a while since upgrading computer.


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## darinf

martyp87 said:


> I've switched computers since last using this software and had issues on OS X (10.14) whereby the audio would become distorted after say 15 mins of use.
> 
> Currently have this software installed on 10.15 although only have the trial running (will need to email for new keys) which works ok for the first 2 mins until the notice pops up. However, just wondering if I'd be better off running this app in Windows 10 instead?  I love the software for watching movies/TV shows so I've been missing it for a while since upgrading computer.


Hi @martyp87,
First, just to let everyone know, we actually have a workaround for the distortion issue with USB DAC's on macOS. I was hoping to release a new version of Out Of Your Head that integrated the fix but haven't quite finished that version.
In the meantime, I will try to post the fix on our website. (I am out of town at the moment.) 

I will post here once I get back home and post the instructions for the fix. 

With regard to your question, sound-wise, Windows ans Mac are the same. However on Windows we don't have the USB DAC distortion issue. 
But you should try it on your Windows computer, and if possible just to make sure everything works with your setup. 

Once you decide what to do, then you email us and we can issue you a new license file for your computer. All we need is the Out Of Your Head UUID value from the computer you want to license. 

Thanks, 
-Darin


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## martyp87

Hi Darin, 

That's great news on the workaround for the DAC issue under MacOS.   As I spend most of my life on the Mac (especially when travelling), I've just sent off an e-mail for new keys for this machine. 

Look forward to implementing the solution for this issue when available!


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## whazzup

darinf said:


> Hi @martyp87,
> First, just to let everyone know, we actually have a workaround for the distortion issue with USB DAC's on macOS. I was hoping to release a new version of Out Of Your Head that integrated the fix but haven't quite finished that version.
> In the meantime, I will try to post the fix on our website. (I am out of town at the moment.)
> 
> ...



Always been curious about your background. You're an audiophile that learnt to code? Or you have some engineering background? Don't mean to pry though.


----------



## darinf

whazzup said:


> Always been curious about your background. You're an audiophile that learnt to code? Or you have some engineering background? Don't mean to pry though.


Hi @whazzup,
I am a professional photographer and videographer "by day" and have been for the past 20 years.

I do have a physics degree from UC Berkeley. 

I have a programmer that does most of the coding. I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to do it myself. 

I am an audiophile though. I got that from my dad. I remember when I was a kid and he said, "I found out that our stereo is only mid-fi. We want Hi-fi! " as he unveiled a Mark Levinson preamp and amp and Celestion speakers.


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## darinf

Hi everyone,
I finally got around to posting the workaround for the macOS version of Out Of Your Head when using USB DAC's.
As mentioned before, there is a bug which causes cumulative timing/sync errors with USB DAC's which caused progressively worse distortion over time.
Here's a link to the workaround instructions on our website:
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-macos-workaround-for-usb-dacs/

Hopefully we will have a new version soon that will incorporate a fix.

Thanks,
-Darin


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## darinf

It's that time of the year...
Happy Thanksgiving to US residents. Everyone else still benefits!


----------



## whazzup

darinf said:


> It's that time of the year...
> Happy Thanksgiving to US residents. Everyone else still benefits!



Awesome! But is there a reason why the title says '(Sale Ended)'?


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## darinf

whazzup said:


> Awesome! But is there a reason why the title says '(Sale Ended)'?


Whoops! Fixed. (Copying and pasting from last time.)
Thanks for pointing out the error.


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## AppleheadMay (Feb 6, 2020)

I wonder if OOYH Gaming Version does need a 7.1 capable DAC (like SoundBlasterX G6) to piggyback on to create 7.1 virtual surround like Waves NX does or can it create 7.1 VSS with a 2-channel DAC as well?

And if I get the full version, do I get additional surround speaker setups like 7.4.1 Atmos?


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## darinf

AppleheadMay said:


> I wonder if OOYH Gaming Version does need a 7.1 capable DAC (like SoundBlasterX G6) to piggyback on to create 7.1 virtual surround like Waves NX does or can it create 7.1 VSS with a 2-channel DAC as well?
> 
> And if I get the full version, do I get additional surround speaker setups like 7.4.1 Atmos?


Out Of Your Head does not require a 7.1 or 5.1 DAC. Out Of Your Head takes a 2 to 8 channel source and outputs binaural 2 channel audio that sounds like up to 8 speakers in a room. So all you need is a 2 channel DAC.
However, Out Of Your Head does not convert 2.0 channel audio to pseudo 5.1 or 7.1 surround.

If you buy the full version of Out Of Your Head, the difference is that you then have the option of purchasing additional speaker presets (you get one preset of your choice when purchasing the full version.) With the Gamer version, you don't have a choice of presets and you can't purchase additional presets without buying the full version.

Out Of Your Head currently supports a maximum of 7.1 channel audio. There is currently no way to render Atmos or DTS-X on a computer so even if Out Of Your Head did support more than 8 speakers, there would be no way to feed it decoded/rendered 7.4.1 audio.


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## AppleheadMay (Feb 6, 2020)

Thanks Darin!

I will be trying out OOYH this weekend.
I guess Waves NX does create a pseudo 7.1 surround sound with headphones?
But what puzzles me is what the audible difference would be between that pseudo 7.1 surround sound and binaural 2 channel sound that sounds like 8 speakers.
Both will deliver a "virtual surround sound", no?


----------



## songmic

Is the OOYH compatible with Raspberry Pi? I’ve used OOYH on both Mac and Windows but would like to move on to RPi. I don’t know if RPi runs on Windows, Mac, or another third-party OS, and if so, whether it would be possible to run OOYH with it.


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## Zenvota (Feb 6, 2020)

AppleheadMay said:


> I guess Waves NX does create a pseudo 7.1 surround sound with headphones?
> But what puzzles me is what the audible difference would be between that pseudo 7.1 surround sound and binaural 2 channel sound that sounds like 8 speakers.
> Both will deliver a "virtual surround sound", no?



Waves nx is real time binaural rendering of 2 to 8 channel audio as well.  Most "virtual surround sound" programs/features are(except a few that just add crossfeed and reverb).  What sets the Realisers, OOYH, and Impulcifer apart is their use of measured room impulse responses.  In ear microphones measure speakers in rooms and add those reflections to the binaural rendering, providing a much more externalized and natural sound.


----------



## Dawnrazor

I installed this recently and there is no control panel icon.  How can I get it to show?  Thanks,


----------



## edwardsean

Dawnrazor said:


> I installed this recently and there is no control panel icon.  How can I get it to show?  Thanks,



Whether you are in Win or Mac, if it installed correctly, you should have an icon in the bottom or top menu bar respectively. Once you launch the program the control panel should open. If for some reason it doesn't once you hit the menu icon it should come up or you can click on "control panel" from the icon's menu.

Hope that helps though I know random problems come up with individual systems.


----------



## Dawnrazor

edwardsean said:


> Whether you are in Win or Mac, if it installed correctly, you should have an icon in the bottom or top menu bar respectively. Once you launch the program the control panel should open. If for some reason it doesn't once you hit the menu icon it should come up or you can click on "control panel" from the icon's menu.
> 
> Hope that helps though I know random problems come up with individual systems.


Thanks man.  I reinstalled it and got the control panel to show.  Looks like a great program.  Sadly it wouldnt work in my system.  It has more to do with my system than OOYH I suppose.  My player sofware only works with 32 bit compatible drivers and it was giving me errors on OOYH as well as the WDM options for the system.  Guessing that windows audio is capped at 24 bits or something??


----------



## edwardsean

Dawnrazor said:


> Thanks man.  I reinstalled it and got the control panel to show.  Looks like a great program.  Sadly it wouldnt work in my system.  It has more to do with my system than OOYH I suppose.  My player sofware only works with 32 bit compatible drivers and it was giving me errors on OOYH as well as the WDM options for the system.  Guessing that windows audio is capped at 24 bits or something??



I don't know if there is a workaround, but I can confirm that in Windows Sound panel OOYH only goes up to 24bit. 

It's too bad that there is an incompatibility. Once you find a preset that works for you, OOYH is astonishingly good. It may be worth fooling around with a different music player.


----------



## edwardsean

I just got a chance to put Audeze's Reveal+ plugin through its paces. It uses a similar technology as Super Xfi. You take a picture of your ear and machine learning attempts to reconstruct your HRTF. The program can then use it as a model to apply IR captures of real world monitors in pro studios. I had a lot of hope for it because, unlike Creative, Audeze is a world class audiophile company, and the presets are being tailor made for their headphones. I use LCD-i4. 

The results are effective, and they can create a convincing sense of external speakers. However, there are a bunch of phase and artifacting issues that make me wonder about the viability of the visual approach. No matter which room, speaker, or placement I chose the same anomalies followed me around. It seems to be a limitation with the photograph capture tech--at least for me. 

I'm writing this here because, the sound and the problems reminded me of OOYH presets that don't work. The benefit of OOYH is that some of the captures are very different from others and if you go through the whole list you may find one that fits. For me that is the Cello speaker, it is the only one that works for me like it does. To my ears, it is glorious. I couldn't get back to it fast enough from the Audeze's plugin. I've tried almost every speaker virtualization tech out there over the past two decades (except BACCH) and the microphone in ear process just seems to work best.  

So many virtualization methods leave me feeling like it works to a degree but the result isn't something you really enjoy, esp. against the natural source material. If you match with a preset on OOYH, it doesn't just sound convincing, it can sound gorgeous.


----------



## Dawnrazor

edwardsean said:


> I don't know if there is a workaround, but I can confirm that in Windows Sound panel OOYH only goes up to 24bit.
> 
> It's too bad that there is an incompatibility. Once you find a preset that works for you, OOYH is astonishingly good. It may be worth fooling around with a different music player.


I tried  for about 20 minutes to get it to work on another computer using foobar.  No idea why but it wouldnt work.  Foobar kept giving me an error (0x88890008). When I switched Foobars output to my digital out driver it worked fine.  I couldnt get OOYH to work.  It kept prompting me to buy a preset but even on bypass it was not working.  Should be pretty simple to select OOYH in foobar and then the digital out driver in OOYH (which I did) and it should work right?


----------



## lowdown

edwardsean said:


> I've tried almost every speaker virtualization tech out there over the past two decades (except BACCH) and the microphone in ear process just seems to work best.
> 
> So many virtualization methods leave me feeling like it works to a degree but the result isn't something you really enjoy, esp. against the natural source material. If you match with a preset on OOYH, it doesn't just sound convincing, it can sound gorgeous.



I've also tried many virtualization options over the years, and now OOYH.  I'd suggest you check out Impulcifer.


----------



## songmic

@darinf

I sent you the same email a couple times already but could not get a reply from you, so I’m asking in this thread. I did ask several posts back but I suppose it got lost among other posts, so I’ll ask again. Of course, if anyone else could help me in this matter, please feel free to chime in, your input would be appreciated.

Is the OOYH compatible with Raspberry Pi? I’ve used OOYH on both Mac and Windows but would like to move on to RPi. I don’t know if RPi runs on Windows, Mac, or another third-party OS, and if so, whether it would be possible to run OOYH with it. If the OOYH cannot be used with RPi, then I’ll just have to give up on RPi (or wait until the day an RPi-compatible version of OOYH comes out).


----------



## SupperTime

I'm new to pc audio and not familiar with any of the programs. How do I get this cool out of your head thing or other cool DSP stuff that I can play while discovering music from Spotify?


----------



## edwardsean

SupperTime said:


> I'm new to pc audio and not familiar with any of the programs. How do I get this cool out of your head thing or other cool DSP stuff that I can play while discovering music from Spotify?



Whether you're on Mac or PC, install the demo of OOYH. Launch OOYH and it should show up in your system as a virtual audio device. Set your built in system audio to go to OOYH. 

When you launch OOYH, the control panel comes up giving you selections for the "output channel." Set the output channel to your preferred listening device. All your PC audio should go through OOYH including Spotify.

I don't use Spotify, so I haven't tested that specifically, but it should work. If Spotify has output controls you could set that to OOYH. 

Hope that helps. OOYH is awesome. Spend some time though exploring the presets as finding a match for your particular ears is key!


----------



## SupperTime

edwardsean said:


> Whether you're on Mac or PC, install the demo of OOYH. Launch OOYH and it should show up in your system as a virtual audio device. Set your built in system audio to go to OOYH.
> 
> When you launch OOYH, the control panel comes up giving you selections for the "output channel." Set the output channel to your preferred listening device. All your PC audio should go through OOYH including Spotify.
> 
> ...


I appreciate it I use headphones so it will work OK, is it easier to understand or at least navigate?


----------



## edwardsean

SupperTime said:


> I appreciate it I use headphones so it will work OK, is it easier to understand or at least navigate?



I think it's pretty straightforward. Spend some time with it though. One of the most important things is giving it enough time for your mind to adjust to what you're hearing.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Yep, pretty easy to use: in Windows/Mac you select OOYH as output, in OOYH you select your device of choice as output.
Works the same way as some others like Boom 3D and Waves NX. They all sound very different though.
Just download the trial version to see how it works and try some different speaker presets as they sound very different. I liked the Sonus Faber surround set best.


----------



## edwardsean

Yeah, have fun trying out the different presets. Don't get hung up on the particular speaker though. I mean don't go for a speaker preset just because you admire the actual physical speaker or it's really expensive. The important thing is the way the capture works with your personal HRTF and convinces you psychoacoustically.


----------



## AppleheadMay

I have to admit I like the look of those higher end SF speakers. 
But my preference for that preset were purely based on the sound.
I tried quite a few (though not all) and some sounded  ok while others really off to me but that SF preset seemed to be right for my ears.
It probably has more to do with the capture that seems to fit my head and ears than the speakers themselves.


----------



## edwardsean

AppleheadMay said:


> I have to admit I like the look of those higher end SF speakers.
> But my preference for that preset were purely based on the sound.
> I tried quite a few (though not all) and some sounded  ok while others really off to me but that SF preset seemed to be right for my ears.
> It probably has more to do with the capture that seems to fit my head and ears than the speakers themselves.



Yeah, for sure. There are a lot complicated factors that are at play as to whether a certain preset will work with you. If you had the real speakers in front of you live, it would be a really different story. With surround virtualization you're shopping for the fit more than the speaker. 

In a hifi store, all the speakers would "work" for you. It would be a matter of which one you like more in terms of sound signature, imaging, needs of your space, etc. 

With these speaker presets, there is definitely a different in terms of signature and room acoustics. However, as you said, some work and others are just completely off. 

For me, most of the presents have a host of frequency and, what sounds to me like, phase issues. I'm sure they sounded good for the person who's head/ears were captured, but not for me. So, I understand when people pass on OOYH. However, I always encourage people to stick with it and spend time. When I eventually found the preset that worked for me (Cello Spkrs), it was stunningly good!


----------



## SupperTime

I don't understand, even did a factory reset. Just trying to get this demo to see if I like this. Please someone help.


----------



## SupperTime

I got this to work finally, but unfortunately only 1 kind of sounded good... The online demo sounded best... What is another software that does this, that's relatively easy to use?


----------



## Zenvota

SupperTime said:


> I got this to work finally, but unfortunately only 1 kind of sounded good... The online demo sounded best... What is another software that does this, that's relatively easy to use?


Did you try EQ?  Bet OOYH sounds _bright _on those Ethers.  Try a pair of dark headphones if you don't want to EQ, like nighthawks/nightowls, t50rp mk3... what else is really dark...


----------



## FlavioWolff

Guys, I’ve seen a lot of different suggestions and it all became a little confusing.
What’s the recommended target curve to eq our headphones in order to enjoy OOYH the best? Or, at least, the best curve to start?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

edwardsean said:


> Yeah, for sure. There are a lot complicated factors that are at play as to whether a certain preset will work with you. If you had the real speakers in front of you live, it would be a really different story. With surround virtualization you're shopping for the fit more than the speaker.
> 
> In a hifi store, all the speakers would "work" for you. It would be a matter of which one you like more in terms of sound signature, imaging, needs of your space, etc.
> 
> ...


Same here;  It's unrealistic to expect any one preset to work well.  But for me the Magico Q7s and the Focal Scala work exceptionally well.  I also use Sonarworks Reference 3 EQ.  As a matter of fact my LCD X were sent to Riga, Latvia so they could do a custom curve.  So yeah, EQ IMHO makes a huge difference here.


----------



## edwardsean

phoenixdogfan said:


> Same here;  It's unrealistic to expect any one preset to work well.  But for me the Magico Q7s and the Focal Scala work exceptionally well.  I also use Sonarworks Reference 3 EQ.  As a matter of fact my LCD X were sent to Riga, Latvia so they could do a custom curve.  So yeah, EQ IMHO makes a huge difference here.



Ditto on the Sonarworks Reference. I think their curve presents a really good base for OOYH presets.


----------



## FlavioWolff

Another question: is it really necessary to output 48.000 hz sample rate to OOYH (as recommended on earlier posts)? I use Spotify and it doesn’t have the option. Sounds normal, btw


----------



## darinf

FlavioWolff said:


> Another question: is it really necessary to output 48.000 hz sample rate to OOYH (as recommended on earlier posts)? I use Spotify and it doesn’t have the option. Sounds normal, btw


No need to upsample anything to 48KHz. The main thing is to downsample everything to 48KHz. But on Windows, if you use Direct Sound, then you don't have to worry about resampling, it will be done through Direct Sound.


----------



## FlavioWolff

darinf said:


> No need to upsample anything to 48KHz. The main thing is to downsample everything to 48KHz. But on Windows, if you use Direct Sound, then you don't have to worry about resampling, it will be done through Direct Sound.



I see! But my dac still sees 44.1khz when playing music through OOYH


----------



## FlavioWolff (Apr 10, 2020)

FlavioWolff said:


> Guys, I’ve seen a lot of different suggestions and it all became a little confusing.
> What’s the recommended target curve to eq our headphones in order to enjoy OOYH the best? Or, at least, the best curve to start?



Adding a bit to this:

Regarding EQ (target curve), there is apparently no consensus here.

This is what I gathered so far by reading most of this thread:

*- edwardsean and phoenixdogfan recommend the Sonarworks Reference 3 curve 

- Zenvota suggests that we do some "inverting EQ" to compensate from double HRTF* (by reducing the 2-6khz area, IIRC. Didn't understand if he EQed to any other curve before EQing that region)

*- Jakko advocates the Harman Curve or the Diffuse Field Curve,* saying that absolute flat could be bad because it removes the natural 3khz peak from the ear canal's ressonance (but could work for wonky/very bright measurements).

So, while zenvota suggests reducing the 2-6khz region gain, jakko suggests using curves that boost 3khz. Despite me being a total noob, they seem to be taking opposite directions here.

*- Darin, when answering an email I sent him asking about headphone EQ and OOYH, said:*

_"Hi Flavio,

In theory, a neutral response in the headphones is desirable. That way the sound you hear will be a representation of the sound of the speakers in the room when they were measured.

But I would EQ the headphones so they sound good to you and your preferences.
Also spending on the headphones, some people find some of the presets to be a little bright. You can EQ your headphones to taste if the sound from that particular preset sounds good to you.

It's hardly an exact science when it comes to EQing headphones."_

Then I asked this:

_"Thanks again. Reading the OOYH thread, I found a post of yours saying that you checked the effects with headphones eqed to “flat”. Do you recall what flat target that was? A flat line? The Harman target? 
I’m really curious and fond to achieve the best reproduction of the rooms.
Thanks!"_

And the final answer was:

_*"Hi Flavio,*_
*The target was a flat line vs. Harman Target.
-Darin"*
______________________________________________________

In my particular case (AKG K371 which follows the Harman Curve very closely), most presets are too bassy (almost unbearable) and also too bright when uneq'd or eq'd to Harman (2013 or 2018)
I have then created a Diffuse Field and a total flat EQ using AutoEQ (based on oratory1990's measurements), and *total flat sounds excellent *with almost all of the OOYH presets. Great tight bass and balanced mids and highs (Cello preset is a total bliss - I can picture myself in a very deep retangular room with speakers far far beyond me!); diffuse field sounded a bit bass shy and too bright with most, but still much better than Harman (or no-eq).

*Can we discuss a bit more about this topic? I think this is absolutely essential. *

(sorry for my English)


----------



## edwardsean

FlavioWolff said:


> Adding a bit to this:
> 
> Regarding EQ (target curve), there is apparently no consensus here.
> 
> ...



Flavio, I think it is awesome that you're taking such a comprehensive approach. I do think a flatter EQ is desirable so that you're not adding correction on top of correction, if that makes sense. I think part of why you are getting such a wide range of responses, is because there are so many variables at play here.  A theoretically "flat" curve helps to provide at least some basis to play around with other factors.

In the end, I guess it goes without saying that, you do have to explore, adjust, and trust your ears. I know that it is a bit of useless advice. However, as I've often said, in these discussions, "if it sounds good it is good." I don't think it's efficient to get too bogged down with all complications of theoretical psychoacoustics. Not that it's not complicated, but because adjusting for each individual set of ears, perceptions, systems, tastes, etc., is more complicated than we can account for at present. So, you have to go with a fair amount of tuning by ear. 

I use sonarworks for my HD800 and Audeze reveal for my LCDi4s. Both of these are custom solutions for their respective phones, but I also have another EQ in the chain that I adjust manually. 

As an aside, the Cello setting is my bliss as well!

All the best to you.


----------



## FlavioWolff (Apr 10, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Flavio, I think it is awesome that you're taking such a comprehensive approach. I do think a flatter EQ is desirable so that you're not adding correction on top of correction, if that makes sense. I think part of why you are getting such a wide range of responses, is because there are so many variables at play here.  A theoretically "flat" curve helps to provide at least some basis to play around with other factors.
> 
> In the end, I guess it goes without saying that, you do have to explore, adjust, and trust your ears. I know that it is a bit of useless advice. However, as I've often said, in these discussions, "if it sounds good it is good." I don't think it's efficient to get too bogged down with all complications of theoretical psychoacoustics. Not that it's not complicated, but because adjusting for each individual set of ears, perceptions, systems, tastes, etc., is more complicated than we can account for at present. So, you have to go with a fair amount of tuning by ear.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your insights.
I understand what you mean! I'm aware that there will never be perfection, and that every pair of ears will hear things differently. What I'm seeking is a bit of a consensus on what are the best practices regarding EQ when using OOYH, more about achieving the original recorded sound (albeit impossible) than about individual preferences (which could be tweaked afterwards).
Flatter (your answer), for example, is a good guideline, but some of the advices found here are not towards "flatter" at all, if I understood them correctly. That's what causing confusion! What should be a starting point before adjusting to our preferences and HRTF particularities?

In the end, it's all about enjoyment. But the mind plays a great role in perceived sound quality, especially when one is aware that he/she is following recommended practices.


----------



## edwardsean

FlavioWolff said:


> Thank you for your insights.
> I understand what you mean! I'm aware that there will never be perfection, and that every pair of ears will hear things differently. What I'm seeking is a bit of a consensus on what are the best practices regarding EQ when using OOYH, more about achieving the original recorded sound (albeit impossible) than about individual preferences (which could be tweaked afterwards).
> Flatter (your answer), for example, is a good guideline, but some of the advices found here are not towards "flatter" at all, if I understood them correctly. That's what causing confusion! What should be a starting point before adjusting to our preferences and HRTF particularities?
> 
> In the end, it's all about enjoyment. But the mind plays a great role in perceived sound quality, especially when one is aware that he/she is following recommended practices.



Yes, I think I understand what you're getting at. I think it's a worthwhile endeavor. I would be interested if there is a consensus as well. 

However, in everything I mentioned, my focus wasn't really about personal preferences. I was also talking about the best route to get optimum sound quality. I emphasize the need for manual EQ editing, and using your ears throughout from beginning to end, not just as a matter to suit to taste. I think it is necessary as a guide and correction for proper sound, even if you do find a consensus. 

I don't mean to say that SQ is all subjective, and that everyone hears differently so go with whatever sounds good to you. I think there is an objective scientific answer to what you are looking for. I don't think that's quite possible within the limitations of OOYH. To find the actual right EQ curve, you really need to measure your own ears with the actual system in the actual room. 

This is some really complicated stuff mathematically, and you need to get a lot right for it to work. Here, with OOYH we are dealing with approximations. We are using systems, rooms, HRTFs, etc, with frequency responses that have no objective relation to your ears, equipment, and the curve you select. We are trying to gain consistent results with the way a curve responds with the arbitrary relations of an IR of one system/room to another, and to the donor HRTF to your HRTF and system.

The only proper solution is to correct EQ by a personal measurement. Barring that, I tend to think that listening throughout the process of selecting presets, and making final adjustments by ear may be more important than whether you start with one theoretical curve or another. 

Still, you are asking for a best practice, and that makes a lot of sense. I've chosen the flat curve as my starting point, and I would also be curious to hear other thoughts.


----------



## jincuteguy

So it's 2020 and does anyone still use this Out Of Your Head software for gaming with your High End headphones and DAC / Amp?


----------



## Zenvota

jincuteguy said:


> So it's 2020 and does anyone still use this Out Of Your Head software for gaming with your High End headphones and DAC / Amp?


I'm still using it for music and occasionally movies(just due to my own circumstances), havent been playing games lately.  but it does work fantastic for gaming, especially paired with bass shakers.


----------



## manukmanohar

Zenvota said:


> I'm still using it for music and occasionally movies(just due to my own circumstances), havent been playing games lately.  but it does work fantastic for gaming, especially paired with bass shakers.



Would be interested to know what hp/iems you are using them with, and what preset worked for you?


----------



## Zenvota (Jul 16, 2020)

manukmanohar said:


> Would be interested to know what hp/iems you are using them with, and what preset worked for you?



desktop system in my sig, primarily open planars with large angled velour pads, current signal non negative feedback amplifiers, and signal/power conditioning.  I havent found dynamic/hybrid iems to work as well(i recently got a planar set but i havent tried them yet).  They seem to lack the response of the planars and dont render the natural decay and reflections as well.  Really benefits from low distortion, fast impulse, free of ringing/resonance, to get a really natural sounding rendering.  I primarily use the Genelecs preset for music due to the type of music i listen to and the studio monitor sound as im sitting at a desk with no tactile transducers.  But i have several presets and they all work well, typically only needing a little channel balance or treble rolloff to sound great.  The more reverberant large speakers large room presets work much better with tactile transducers and lights off, feeling those low frequencies on most of your body compared to just your head makes a huge difference in externalization.  I just do the headphone correction manually with eq apo and id imagine im doing some hrtf correction as well.  If im not listening to metal a wide array of presets sound perfectly natural for other music.

Let's see, I have the
Acoustic Zen Crescendos
Magico Q3(boomy)
Genelecs(most lofi metal)
Egyptian Theater(big theater sound for old movies)
Focal Scala Utopian(rich)
Ribbons(clinical)
Cello Stradivari Premiere(very reverberant)
AZen Adagio Plus(bit more forgiving of crap recordings)
Volti Vittoras(good for crunchy guitars)
PBN Audio Sammy(good for bass guitars)
JMLab Nova Utopia Be(bigger brighter sounding room)
Marten Coltrane Memento V2(bigger bassier room)

Using specific equipment, correcting the headphones/hrtf, tactile transducers, and cleaning up external noise made a tremendous difference in the perceived naturalness and externalization of the rendering, "phantom like imaging"


----------



## jincuteguy

Zenvota said:


> desktop system in my sig, primarily open planars with large angled velour pads, current signal non negative feedback amplifiers, and signal/power conditioning.  I havent found dynamic/hybrid iems to work as well(i recently got a planar set but i havent tried them yet).  They seem to lack the response of the planars and dont render the natural decay and reflections as well.  Really benefits from low distortion, fast impulse, free of ringing/resonance, to get a really natural sounding rendering.  I primarily use the Genelecs preset for music due to the type of music i listen to and the studio monitor sound as im sitting at a desk with no tactile transducers.  But i have several presets and they all work well, typically only needing a little channel balance or treble rolloff to sound great.  The more reverberant large speakers large room presets work much better with tactile transducers and lights off, feeling those low frequencies on most of your body compared to just your head makes a huge difference in externalization.  I just do the headphone correction manually with eq apo and id imagine im doing some hrtf correction as well.  If im not listening to metal a wide array of presets sound perfectly natural for other music.
> 
> Let's see, I have the
> Acoustic Zen Crescendos
> ...



Damn that's a lot of presets, i think you have to pay $150 for 1 preset, then every extra preset costs $25 more.
So which Preset to you that you think is the best for gaming? like in terms of surround sound cues.  I don't care for music.  I have Hifiman Arya headphones.


----------



## Zenvota

jincuteguy said:


> Damn that's a lot of presets, i think you have to pay $150 for 1 preset, then every extra preset costs $25 more.
> So which Preset to you that you think is the best for gaming? like in terms of surround sound cues.  I don't care for music.  I have Hifiman Arya headphones.


I tended to pick up chunks of presets during of of the bi-annual half off sales.

Ah, well, Genelecs or AZen Adagio Pluses if you're not using bass shakers, but if you have shakers then alot of em sound really cool... the JMLabs are very spacious and bright so that could help with localization.  The coltrane memento v2 is very spacious but bassy if you're looking for a more immersive tactile experience.  The ribbons could also be good for localization.  

gotta eq those Aryas though, just start with flattening em out / rolling off 2-10khz


----------



## Takeanidea

The OOYH software is a generic version of the Smyth Realiser. Most of the presets are copied from a file sharing system that Smyth setup for owners of the A8. It's clever that they've been made available through software, but they don't compare to the Realiser because the Realiser uses your own ears as a source rather than someone else's.


----------



## edwardsean

Takeanidea said:


> The OOYH software is a generic version of the Smyth Realiser. Most of the presets are copied from a file sharing system that Smyth setup for owners of the A8. It's clever that they've been made available through software, but they don't compare to the Realiser because the Realiser uses your own ears as a source rather than someone else's.



True. At the same time the Realiser also has the IR exchange and James Smyth said that one of his favorite IR captures was made from someone else's HRTF measurements.


----------



## Zenvota

Takeanidea said:


> The OOYH software is a generic version of the Smyth Realiser. Most of the presets are copied from a file sharing system that Smyth setup for owners of the A8. It's clever that they've been made available through software, but they don't compare to the Realiser because the Realiser uses your own ears as a source rather than someone else's.


Theyre all made with an A8.  And yes personalized measurements will surely  provide the best quality.  But some basic hrtf correction can be made that will help the preset sound more natural / personalized.



Additionally these various programs and devices give us multiple options for different scenarios.  The Realisers can be used without a pc, Impulcifer allows for all sorts of room correction, etc.  And all of them require some level of user input.  And Ill keep banging the equipment drum as it makes a world of difference.

@edwardsean did I see you posting on the uptone forum recently? :]


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> Theyre all made with an A8.  And yes personalized measurements will surely  provide the best quality.  But some basic hrtf correction can be made that will help the preset sound more natural / personalized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, yeah, I recently got a DAVE and that sent me on a deep dive of getting it the best signal. This has meant assembling a whole chain from server to reclocker and master clock, and, sigh, multiple high quality power supplies. So, Uptone has been in the mix. 

I'm still devoted to OOYH. As my chain has gotten better and better, OOYH has scaled right along. 

If you recall I was upscaling from 48KHz to DSD512–after OOYH processing. Now with Dave, I've switched to PCM and I'm upscaling from 48KHz to PCM768KHz. We discussed how we clearly heard an improvement to OOYH, but I saw a post calling for an end to such "ridiculous" assertions. I understand so much better now why this works. 

Back then I didn't know the difference between upsampling and upscaling. I thought they referred to the same thing. I've come to realize that upscaling, as done by MScaler and HQP, are not just multiplying the sample rate. It's not just about increasing the frequency but how you're filling all that additional data.They are using extremely computationally heavy algorithms to "tap" the base (44.1/48KHz) digital waveform up to a million+ times. They then take this information and–intelligently–interpolate missing information to reconstruct the original _analog_ waveform.

When this process is done post OOYH, it is not only attempting to reconstruct the original 2-channel data but OOYH's convolution of that source data. This is to say, it is not only  digitally restoring the sounds and reverberations of the studio master but the sounds and reverberations of the system and room that OOYH captured. So, now I've added signal regeneration and reclocking downstream of the upscaling and each stage not only improves the audio data but OOYH's effect. The degradation of digital reproduction and digital convolution are being corrected simultaneously. Everything sounds more real, both the music and the effect of listening to it on speakers, while using headphones. 

So, the sonic artifacts that made me feel like OOYH is off from actual speaker listening have steadily vanished. There is still the physics problem as no waves are actuating pressure in the room, but aside from that, OOYH–upsampled, upscaled, regenerated, and reclocked–is spectacularly convincing. 

This again underscores the point that sometimes you know better to hear better, and other times you hear better to know better. 

What's been new with you?


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## Zenvota (Jul 17, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Hi, yeah, I recently got a DAVE and that sent me on a deep dive of getting it the best signal. This has meant assembling a whole chain from server to reclocker and master clock, and, sigh, multiple high quality power supplies. So, Uptone has been in the mix.


Oh very cool, do you have the whole chain typed out? :]




edwardsean said:


> I'm still devoted to OOYH. As my chain has gotten better and better, OOYH has scaled right along.


absolutely 100% prir binaural rendering benefits from specific equipment to a greater degree than stereo music.




edwardsean said:


> If you recall I was upscaling from 48KHz to DSD512–after OOYH processing. Now with Dave, I've switched to PCM and I'm upscaling from 48KHz to PCM768KHz. We discussed how we clearly heard an improvement to OOYH, but I saw a post calling for an end to such "ridiculous" assertions. I understand so much better now why this works.


Ya in the A16 thread... I just gave them some longwinded archimago blogs to waste their time and walked away.  Not gonna learn anything from those types... I get alot that with projectors on AVS.  Frequently people telling me that certain metrics are irrelevant.  That their 3chip liquid crystal + broad spectrum uhp lamp is comparable in pixel response and color gradations to my single chip dmd + narrow band high yield led.  /sigh 

In my case real time dsd processing just took too much computing power so I hadn't been using it, but it's always been in the back of my mind as one of the few improvements I could make, and I thank you for sharing that information because no one else on the planet has tried that.



edwardsean said:


> Back then I didn't know the difference between upsampling and upscaling. I thought they referred to the same thing. I've come to realize that upscaling, as done by MScaler and HQP, are not just multiplying the sample rate. It's not just about increasing the frequency but how you're filling all that additional data.They are using extremely computationally heavy algorithms to "tap" the base (44.1/48KHz) digital waveform up to a million+ times. They then take this information and–intelligently–interpolate missing information to reconstruct the original analog waveform.  When this process is done post OOYH, it is not only attempting to reconstruct the original 2-channel data but OOYH's convolution of that source data. This is to say, it is not only  digitally restoring the sounds and reverberations of the studio master but the sounds and reverberations of the system and room that OOYH captured. So, now I've added signal regeneration and reclocking downstream of the upscaling and each stage not only improves the audio data but OOYH's effect. The degradation of digital reproduction and digital convolution are being corrected simultaneously. Everything sounds more real, both the music and the effect of listening to it on speakers, while using headphones.  So, the sonic artifacts that made me feel like OOYH is off from actual speaker listening have steadily vanished. There is still the physics problem as no waves are actuating pressure in the room, but aside from that, OOYH–upsampled, upscaled, regenerated, and reclocked–is spectacularly convincing.  This again underscores the point that sometimes you know better to hear better, and other times you hear better to know better.


Ah fantastic thanks for sharing that.  At some point I'm going to have to take a deep dive into upscaling.

I can relate with video though, in that using madVRs hardware accelerated 32 bit math 16 bit surface dithered to 10 bit video rendering with cutting edge upscaling/downscaling/sharpening algorithms can make ancient dvds look like 4k remasters.




edwardsean said:


> What's been new with you?


It's been deep dive with projection for me.  Looking at everything available I settled on a 10 year old used Sim2 Mico 40 and using madVRs dynamic tone mapping for HDR and will use a 3dlut for color correction.

The projector essentially has the widest native color gamut available at 90% bt2020, until the Chiq C8ut(rgb laser for $10k) which hits 100% bt2020.  DLP dmds have a 0.01ms black to white impulse pixel response imparting crt-like motion, 95% uniformity superior to oled and d-ila, 3000:1 native contrast but 15,000:1 gamma corrected near-artifact free dynamic contrast with water cooled leds, and appears much brighter and with a higher perceived contrast due to the narrow band wavelength of the leds and color contrast/performance, so it looks more like 25,000:1 and 200nits, excellent black level(not pure black but black) and very defined highlights, with pixel perfect emissive display level sharpness and detail.  The pixel performance and light source provide the best color performance I've ever seen.  ever.  Absolutely perfect instantaneous low level detail/color, shadow detail, gradations.  Just astounding.  All that with no bulbs, no filters, low power usage, and low heat output, perfect optical engine.


----------



## edwardsean

Zenvota said:


> Oh very cool, do you have the whole chain typed out? :]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My chain has been rapidly in flux. There are things to which I said a week ago, "Why would I need that?" that I'm getting. I keep getting pulled upward even as something inside pushes me. I avoided going the full blown purpose built computer server route, but now I've gone all in. I have one coming in, and I'm charting my way though audiophile linux solutions and all their esoteric computer code flags. I just bought an Innuos Phoenix reclocker and the letters OCXO have me all excited. 

It's fascinating though isn't it? All this science behind the sensory experience, which, ultimately, is about very unscientific things. Like yourself, I thoroughly enjoy the technical details, even as it often drives me crazy. Yet, I know, at the foundations, it's not being driven by a sheer love of bits and nits. We've _felt_ the effects of these things on they way we take in music and movies. All these cold data points correlate to emotional impact and the insights we gain about the world, relationship, life. It is why we drive ourselves crazy about all this stuff, isn't it?


----------



## Zenvota

edwardsean said:


> My chain has been rapidly in flux. There are things to which I said a week ago, "Why would I need that?" that I'm getting. I keep getting pulled upward even as something inside pushes me. I avoided going the full blown purpose built computer server route, but now I've gone all in. I have one coming in, and I'm charting my way though audiophile linux solutions and all their esoteric computer code flags. I just bought an Innuos Phoenix reclocker and the letters OCXO have me all excited. It's fascinating though isn't it? All this science behind the sensory experience, which, ultimately, is about very unscientific things. Like yourself, I thoroughly enjoy the technical details, even as it often drives me crazy. Yet, I know, at the foundations, it's not being driven by a sheer love of bits and nits. We've _felt_ the effects of these things on they way we take in music and movies. All these cold data points correlate to emotional impact and the insights we gain about the world, relationship, life. It is why we drive ourselves crazy about all this stuff, isn't it?


Yes, when I first started experimenting with equipment I had 0 bias to different transducers and circuits, and really very little knowledge of the differences between them as well, and made ab comparisons spanning months to try to achieve the most objective results I could.  Using specific components there were crystal clear differences in how natural the virtualization sounded and a lack of fatiguing qualities.  I also wanted to keep things as inexpensive or simple as possible, to better be able to make suggestions to interested persons.  I would've loved to have been satisfied using a pair of $30 jvc dynamics and the computers built-in headamp, but the differences were to astounding and elating to ignore.

To cover the main issues I came up with the following, everything can be bought used for under $500 total.

PC to an Uptone USB Regen powered by a linear supply(a $15 jameco supply worked, and preferably with a quadrapole dc cable)
into an XMOS USB to SPDIF converter with a linear supply and TCXO
optical out to a budget Audio-GD ESS combo with a TCXO, a quadrapole AC power cable, and a Topaz Line Noise Suppressor
using Hifiman HE-400i with Dekoni LCD Velour pads, custom rear grill with 5mm wire mesh and melamine, and sorbothane lined cups

the dac/amp is completely isolated, drastically reduced ac line noise, drastically reduced usb phy noise and jitter, drastically reduced ringing/resonance in the headphones.  Resulted in extremely clear and natural binaural rendering.  My absolute minimum for enjoyable prir virtualization now.  

Really suprising were the improvements made on the digital transport side reclocking and noise reduction before the dac chip.  Powering an iso regen and the amanero usb to i2s board with an ultracap lps was a big improvement, and running the planars balanced with the amplifiers upgraded power supplies were a big improvement as well.  Everything got bigger, more externalized, and sounded more like actual loudspeakers, as more natural decay/reflections were more accurately rendered.  I probably swapped out the dc power cable to the iso regen out 20 times, and every time imaging and non-fatiguing treble quality was readily apparent, for $2 of cable and connectors, and supported by scientific reasoning, as the varied current draw of digital devices causing a noise generating voltage to develop across the inductance of the cable, low inductance cable, low noise, and that type of noise passes through the voltage regulators.

It's re-assuring and enjoyable to know that people, like yourself, are observing improvements in quality from other methods as well.


----------



## jincuteguy

Takeanidea said:


> The OOYH software is a generic version of the Smyth Realiser. Most of the presets are copied from a file sharing system that Smyth setup for owners of the A8. It's clever that they've been made available through software, but they don't compare to the Realiser because the Realiser uses your own ears as a source rather than someone else's.



So you're saying if I have the A8, I can make those kind of Presets and save them?


----------



## castleofargh

jincuteguy said:


> So you're saying if I have the A8, I can make those kind of Presets and save them?


If your purpose is to record binaural impulses from a room+speakers on yourself, you might want to look at this instead:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/


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## Takeanidea

jincuteguy said:


> So you're saying if I have the A8, I can make those kind of Presets and save them?


Yes, if you have an A8, they're no longer produced, but they fetch a lot of money 2ndhand


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## W1ll1eTheP1mp

Hey! Im pretty new to software virtualization. I love binaurally recorded albums but its really hard to find! Therefore i want to try a a software. Ive used DTS: 3D Side by side setting on my phone and its actually pretty good. I have a few questions for someone who has a lot of knownledge with this:

1. Is it possible to set up Out Of Your Head to work with streaming service's on PC? Almost all my music comes from streaming.
2. Do i need HeSuVi in addition?
3. Is there a good guide of how i can setup this software to emulate binaural recordings with using other people's HRTF?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Zenvota

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Hey! Im pretty new to software virtualization. I love binaurally recorded albums but its really hard to find! Therefore i want to try a a software. Ive used DTS: 3D Side by side setting on my phone and its actually pretty good. I have a few questions for someone who has a lot of knownledge with this:
> 
> 1. Is it possible to set up Out Of Your Head to work with streaming service's on PC? Almost all my music comes from streaming.
> 2. Do i need HeSuVi in addition?
> ...


1. yes all aufio can go through ooyh
2. nope no hesuvi
3. the softwares very straight forward and you can demo it for free.

the one advise id give is to use equalizer apo to flatten out your headphones frewuency response over 2khz


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## phoenixdogfan (Sep 1, 2020)

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Hey! Im pretty new to software virtualization. I love binaurally recorded albums but its really hard to find! Therefore i want to try a a software. Ive used DTS: 3D Side by side setting on my phone and its actually pretty good. I have a few questions for someone who has a lot of knownledge with this:
> 
> 1. Is it possible to set up Out Of Your Head to work with streaming service's on PC? Almost all my music comes from streaming.
> 2. Do i need HeSuVi in addition?
> ...


In answer to your questions (I am a long time OOYH user--since 2015)
window
1.Yes.  Pretty much all I listen to are streaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, Qobuz). Just set up OOYH as the default speaker in Windows.  Alternatively, many of the streaming services allow you to set up a WASAPI exclusive mode to OOYH. You will need a media player like JRiver if you opt for this alternative.
2. No.  OOYH works as a standalone, although HeSu/vi can use OOYH presets, as I understand it
3. OOYH is binaural emulation software, and it has historically been used as a stand alone virtual sound card on Windows and Mac PCs, the OOYH manual provides a very good guide to get you started, this thread will answer some of your FAQs, as will the OOYH website, and Darin Fong is very available and promptly responsive in his support capacity.

Ditto to the previous post on EQ.  I use Sonarworks, and I think it has made all the difference.  After all, you want to hear the speakers, not your headphones.


----------



## W1ll1eTheP1mp

phoenixdogfan said:


> In answer to your questions (I am a long time OOYH user--since 2015)
> window
> 1.Yes.  Pretty much all I listen to are streaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, Qobuz). Just set up OOYH as the default speaker in Windows.  Alternatively, many of the streaming services allow you to set up a WASAPI exclusive mode to OOYH. You will need a media player like JRiver if you opt for this alternative.
> 2. No.  OOYH works as a standalone, although HeSu/vi can use OOYH presets, as I understand it
> ...


Thanks alot to both! What do u use sonarworks for? Flatten the EQ with their presets?


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## phoenixdogfan

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Thanks alot to both! What do u use sonarworks for? Flatten the EQ with their presets?


Flatten the headphone so all you hear is the way the speakers in the presets sound, not the added effect of the headphone's frequency nonlinearities.


----------



## Zenvota

Additionally i find headphones that follow the harman target to be much to bright, something about a double hrtf with the measured impulse responses so i like the uncompensated frequency response to be much closer to flat


----------



## W1ll1eTheP1mp

phoenixdogfan said:


> Flatten the headphone so all you hear is the way the speakers in the presets sound, not the added effect of the headphone's frequency nonlinearities.


I should probably use PM3 since that is the flattest ive got. I also use IE800.  Do i use equalizerAPO for that? Oratory has presets,but they arent flat, they are like harman curve i guess.

Gonna try the OOYH tonight.. Hope its worth the money.. Love binaural/spatial effects as long its not coloring the sound to much or sound very artificial(enhanched bass+reverb its pretty common in bad effects loke early sfi creative aurvana effects).


----------



## Zenvota

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> I should probably use PM3 since that is the flattest ive got. I also use IE800.  Do i use equalizerAPO for that? Oratory has presets,but they arent flat, they are like harman curve i guess.
> 
> Gonna try the OOYH tonight.. Hope its worth the money.. Love binaural/spatial effects as long its not coloring the sound to much or sound very artificial(enhanched bass+reverb its pretty common in bad effects loke early sfi creative aurvana effects).


Its free to try all of the presets have a 2min timer and you just change to another preset, theres a base preset without the measured room that has a 1 week trial as well

Theyre measured rooms so theres no added effects

You're still going to have to reduce 1-5khz on the pm3.  I like just using eq apo as is with the parametric filters


----------



## W1ll1eTheP1mp

Zenvota said:


> Its free to try all of the presets have a 2min timer and you just change to another preset, theres a base preset without the measured room that has a 1 week trial as well
> 
> Theyre measured rooms so theres no added effects
> 
> You're still going to have to reduce 1-5khz on the pm3.  I like just using eq apo as is with the parametric filters


do you now if i can find a graph to get it very flat or do i need to trust my ears?


----------



## Zenvota

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> do you now if i can find a graph to get it very flat or do i need to trust my ears?


https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/10004662.png

I also like to listen to frequency sweeps with and without ooyh and sometimes you can adjust your own hrtf a bit


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## edwardsean

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> I should probably use PM3 since that is the flattest ive got. I also use IE800.  Do i use equalizerAPO for that? Oratory has presets,but they arent flat, they are like harman curve i guess.
> 
> Gonna try the OOYH tonight.. Hope its worth the money.. Love binaural/spatial effects as long its not coloring the sound to much or sound very artificial(enhanched bass+reverb its pretty common in bad effects loke early sfi creative aurvana effects).



Hey! Well, since the usual suspects are here, @Zenvota, @phoenixdogfan, I thought I'd join in. I also love OOYH and have been a user from the start. Just a tip to orient you:

_Don't think of OOYH having a sound of its own. It will all come down to the individual preset (speaker system, room). The presets vary–wildly–in every way, e.g., frequency response, room size, coloration, etc. etc. The presets are far, far from neutral._

That is why the guys are telling you to get your own system EQ neutral. You can use Sonarworks or EQ to Harman Curve, just whatever sounds as flat as possible to you. That way you will minimize negative interactions and have some consistency to judge the presets. If your current system, e.g., flatters bass, or excites the high end, or attenuates/boosts mids, etc., this may "improve" certain presets in some areas and intensify problems in others–at random. A relatively flat system will render a "blank canvas" to allow each preset to color the sound as it will, and it will. 

Because there is such a variance between presets you have to take your time go through each one. Some will immediately sound way off: harsh, boomy, "phasey," metallic, etc. This means there is a fundamental mismatch between that capture and your HRTF/system. You can move on. If they all sound "off," artificial, then either 1) none of the captures are close enough to work with your HRTF, 2) it's a psychoacoustic problem. 

There is a lot of mental adjustment that comes with OOYH which is why a lot of people write if off without giving it a legitimate effort. You have to make psychoacoustic adjustments to the way you listen every time you make a major change in your setup. You have to spend some time with a new headphone, DAC, amp, and to a lesser degree, cables, before you can assess it properly. Now, all of sudden, there are two radical changes that need to be made. Firstly, you are still listening through headphones but you are getting the sound of a live speaker system. That will cause a big shift in how you hear and judge all the sonic elements coming your way. Secondly, each preset brings a completely different setup: speaker, amps, configuration, room, etc. 

So, you have to give your head some time to get "out of itself." 

Best of luck!


----------



## phoenixdogfan

jincuteguy said:


> So you're saying if I have the A8, I can make those kind of Presets and save them?


You can't have an A8 anymore, b/c Smyth no longer makes it (unless you want to buy used), but you can buy the much more conplex and ambitious A16 Realiser which will now render 24 channel Atmos, and hopefully DTS-X and Auro 3D (though that will have to wait for an update.)


----------



## AppleheadMay

phoenixdogfan said:


> You can't have an A8 anymore, b/c Smyth no longer makes it (unless you want to buy used), but you can buy the much more conplex and ambitious A16 Realiser which will now render 24 channel Atmos, and hopefully DTS-X and Auro 3D (though that will have to wait for an update.)



And by the time you receive your A16 it will come with Auro 5D pre-installed.


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## phoenixdogfan

AppleheadMay said:


> And by the time you receive your A16 it will come with Auro 5D pre-installed.


I know when mine is coming--September 9th


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## AppleheadMay

phoenixdogfan said:


> I know when mine is coming--September 9th



You're one of the Kickstarters then? I'm one of the early pre-orders, October 31 2016.


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## phoenixdogfan (Sep 3, 2020)

AppleheadMay said:


> You're one of the Kickstarters then? I'm one of the early pre-orders, October 31 2016.


No I bought it in January at retail.  Had to sell a kid, but what the heck.  It arrived in January, froze repeatedly and was totally unresponsive to remote commands, so it was sent to Bangor on January 28th.  Uk customs would not release it for a month, by then they ran out of the old boards, so they upgraded everyone who had not received theirs to the 24 channel board, and I waited several months for them to accomplish that.  They sent it back via UPS in July.  Ups lost it for a month and wound up returning it to Bangor instead of sending to me even after they billed me and I paid incoming custom duty.  Smyth retested the unit and sent it out September 1 via DHL, and it's due to arrive at my front door on September 9th, hopefully in perfect working order with the latest firmware already installed.


----------



## AppleheadMay

phoenixdogfan said:


> No I bought it in January at retail.  Had to sell a kid, but what the heck.  It arrived in January, froze repeatedly and was totally unresponsive to remote commands, so it was sent to Bangor on January 28th.  Uk customs would not release it for a month, by then they ran out of the old boards, so they upgraded everyone who had not received theirs to the 24 channel board, and I waited several months for them to accomplish that.  They sent it back via UPS in July.  Ups lost it for a month and wound up returning it to Bangor instead of sending to me even after they billed me and I paid incoming custom duty.  Smyth retested the unit and sent it out September 1 via DHL, and it's due to arrive at my front door on September 9th, hopefully in perfect working order with the latest firmware already installed.



You haven’t been lucky either with Smyth, even while paying over 4k.
Personally, I find it pretty bad practice and manners they start selling units at full price, then doing paid upgrades while not bothering to fulfill pre-orders paid over 4 years ago.
I’m not in a hurry anymore though because without a HDMI 2.1 board the thing is pretty much obsolete for me. 
Maybe I’ll get lucky and when I get it in a year or so it will have an up to date HDMI board.


----------



## Zenvota




----------



## phoenixdogfan

AppleheadMay said:


> You haven’t been lucky either with Smyth, even while paying over 4k.
> Personally, I find it pretty bad practice and manners they start selling units at full price, then doing paid upgrades while not bothering to fulfill pre-orders paid over 4 years ago.
> I’m not in a hurry anymore though because without a HDMI 2.1 board the thing is pretty much obsolete for me.
> Maybe I’ll get lucky and when I get it in a year or so it will have an up to date HDMI board.


Why not just use an HDMI splitter, and send the audio leg to the A16 and the video to the monitor?  Or don't they make those at a reasonable price?  Or is it a copyright licensing issue?


----------



## AppleheadMay

phoenixdogfan said:


> Why not just use an HDMI splitter, and send the audio leg to the A16 and the video to the monitor?  Or don't they make those at a reasonable price?  Or is it a copyright licensing issue?



There are different solutions but none let you put 4 devices (like I have) into the Realiser and pass through the video at 4k/120/4:4:4 with VRR etc.. , using it as an AV receiver for headphones, which it was intended to be.
You could use splitters but your success rate will vary, I used a $1600 2-piece system and sent it back because I had all kinds of problems, then tried a $130 thingie that worked albeit getting a lot of handshake problems which means unplugging the cables a lot. That was a long time ago and I haven't found any that are HDMI 2.1 compatible yet.
You could use an AV receiver with HDMI 2.1 input, some models have a second HDMI out that passes through surround sound, others pass through stereo only on the second output. Currently I think there are only models available with 1 HDMI 2.1 port. Useless as well.
You could plug everything into the TV and use the eARC out to the Realiser but that leaves you with only 3 inputs. Would have to test how that would work and if the handshaking is ok.
So all in all if you need to use problematic workarounds to use new gear then it's outdated.


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## AppleheadMay

Here's where they get their HDMI boards from: http://www.mds.com/products/hdmivideo/5th-gen-hdmi/
Currently they have no HDMI 2.1 boards yet but as far as I was informed once they do the board in the Realiser would be user replaceable.
It's confirmed by Snyth in the comment section of their Kickstarter page.


----------



## edwardsean

phoenixdogfan said:


> No I bought it in January at retail.  Had to sell a kid, but what the heck.  It arrived in January, froze repeatedly and was totally unresponsive to remote commands, so it was sent to Bangor on January 28th.  Uk customs would not release it for a month, by then they ran out of the old boards, so they upgraded everyone who had not received theirs to the 24 channel board, and I waited several months for them to accomplish that.  They sent it back via UPS in July.  Ups lost it for a month and wound up returning it to Bangor instead of sending to me even after they billed me and I paid incoming custom duty.  Smyth retested the unit and sent it out September 1 via DHL, and it's due to arrive at my front door on September 9th, hopefully in perfect working order with the latest firmware already installed.



O man, sorry you had to go through all that, but I'm happy for you that the new A16 is close to being delivered. 

I'm one of the early preorders too, and I don't even see my unit on the horizon. The only thing that has kept me peaceable is OOYH. 

Curiously enough if I did get my A16 anywhere near when I was supposed to, I wouldn't have overhauled my system. I would've been spending all my time capturing speaker rooms and optimizing the A16. As it is, I got a Chord DAVE and spent the price of the DAVE over again on building a new system around it. 

Each step of the way OOYH never got shown up as a bottleneck to fidelity. Instead it just kept revealing more and more of its quality. I thought I would have to get the A16 to get this level of convincing speaker virtualization. However, OOYH has proven itself as a serious tool that has a place in top flight systems.


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## W1ll1eTheP1mp

edwardsean said:


> Hey! Well, since the usual suspects are here, @Zenvota, @phoenixdogfan, I thought I'd join in. I also love OOYH and have been a user from the start. Just a tip to orient you:
> 
> _Don't think of OOYH having a sound of its own. It will all come down to the individual preset (speaker system, room). The presets vary–wildly–in every way, e.g., frequency response, room size, coloration, etc. etc. The presets are far, far from neutral._
> 
> ...


Hmm thanks alot. Ive already eq'ed all my gear to harman. What gear do i need except pc and headphones/IEM? I dont have a speaker system at all.. Ive got a BT speaker i use when im on mountaintrips in the tent. Thats it! Haha.. Ive signed out for the download 2 times at OOYH, but havent got the confirmation mail yet. So i dont know the full price for it. What is the full price? Is HeSuVi kinda the same but free?without the speaker presets?

I really like the few binaural recordings ive got, but they are so incredible hard to find! As Digital(only know about nativedsd.com,but quite expensive) i only know about a few. I really would like to hear f.ex GY!BE, Gogo Penguin and Nils Frahm and rest of erased records binaurally. My kind of music. Since they havent released any binaurally as i know of i have to try to simulate it. 

If i had enough cash i would have bought myself a realizer a16 or something. But thats not possible for me. So u i have to make it work the budget way


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## castleofargh

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Hmm thanks alot. Ive already eq'ed all my gear to harman. What gear do i need except pc and headphones/IEM? I dont have a speaker system at all.. Ive got a BT speaker i use when im on mountaintrips in the tent. Thats it! Haha.. Ive signed out for the download 2 times at OOYH, but havent got the confirmation mail yet. So i dont know the full price for it. What is the full price? Is HeSuVi kinda the same but free?without the speaker presets?
> 
> I really like the few binaural recordings ive got, but they are so incredible hard to find! As Digital(only know about nativedsd.com,but quite expensive) i only know about a few. I really would like to hear f.ex GY!BE, Gogo Penguin and Nils Frahm and rest of erased records binaurally. My kind of music. Since they havent released any binaurally as i know of i have to try to simulate it.
> 
> If i had enough cash i would have bought myself a realizer a16 or something. But thats not possible for me. So u i have to make it work the budget way


The concept of flat headphone is either arbitrary(graphs) or a personal quest(because of HRTF, past experiences...). With anything related to binaural, crossfeed, speaker simulation, I would suggest to start with EQing mono. Whatever idea you have for this can help, but Mr Griesinger explains the concept pretty well here: 
 
Basically, when you listen to mono, your brain doesn't get many of the audio cues that help with spatial interpretation. Instead all you have is some correlation between frequency response and elevation(because of the shape of the outer ear). So it's a situation where you can expect a pretty direct relation between the EQ and your impressions.

If you get that right, even if you don't get the impression of distance(that's listener dependent and a few people will just never feel like something is in front of them when their eyes don't see it), at least you'll hopefully have a more accurate sens of elevation for sounds in front of you. And as most sounds will be in front of you or slightly on the sides, this might be enough for the entire playback experience to improve.
The flaw is that it's not easy to do, at all.


Now about binaural records, some are done with a random pair of mics and some distance between them, and some are done with a given dummy head(so the dummy head's HRTF is baked in the record). as a result, binaural records from different origins may give very different subjective results for you.
Another note about binaural, OOYH is not made for that! It's a speaker simulation, so typical albums should be played with it(albums made with and for speakers). For binaural stuff, EQ mono however you can, and just play them without OOYH. That should be the way.


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## edwardsean (Sep 3, 2020)

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Hmm thanks alot. Ive already eq'ed all my gear to harman. What gear do i need except pc and headphones/IEM? I dont have a speaker system at all.. Ive got a BT speaker i use when im on mountaintrips in the tent. Thats it! Haha.. Ive signed out for the download 2 times at OOYH, but havent got the confirmation mail yet. So i dont know the full price for it. What is the full price? Is HeSuVi kinda the same but free?without the speaker presets?
> 
> I really like the few binaural recordings ive got, but they are so incredible hard to find! As Digital(only know about nativedsd.com,but quite expensive) i only know about a few. I really would like to hear f.ex GY!BE, Gogo Penguin and Nils Frahm and rest of erased records binaurally. My kind of music. Since they havent released any binaurally as i know of i have to try to simulate it.
> 
> If i had enough cash i would have bought myself a realizer a16 or something. But thats not possible for me. So u i have to make it work the budget way



You don't need a speaker system, just a PC and headphone system.

There is an option to purchase all the presets at a discount bulk rate, but most people just buy the individual presets that work for them.

The email with the download link usually comes right away. If you've checked your spam folder and it still hasn't arrived, you should contact Darin in "contact us."


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## louiebh

is there an update coming for windows, i recently updated to 2004 windows 10 and now the audio is permanently crackled


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## oppman99

I am having similar issues louie


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## edwardsean

Hey, anyone on the Big Sur beta? It seems to have knocked out OOYH.


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## W1ll1eTheP1mp

edwardsean said:


> Hey, anyone on the Big Sur beta? It seems to have knocked out OOYH.


You mean the Apple thing where you need to use Airpods?


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## directx1971

I am afraid that OOYH is currently un-usable as it doesn't work with windows 10 2004
The developer should put some warning in his web site about that , when asked they said they are working on a fix
But Release 2004 landed in MAY 28  (more than 5 months ago) and still no fix for this ? come on.


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## RadioCity07

Hello...new member here, but a big fan of OOYH, and also someone very appreciative of all the discussions that have happened here in the past...I've certainly read, learned, and borrowed a lot, so thanks to all.  I decided to finally join in the discussion because I believe I've found a somewhat reasonable "workaround" for the Windows 10 2004 issue.

I kind of happened upon the answer indirectly thru some random google searches of 2004 audio issues (which seem to be by no means limited to OOYH) a few months ago.  I had seen several discussions about Razer Surround Pro that seemed to involve a similar sounding problem...and an odd little "fix" a user had noted when BlueStacks was also installed and running at the same time.  Well, I am not a BlueStacks user and was definitely not overly eager to install...particularly to take up pretty substantial hard drive space / cpu resources etc, but after my OOYH computer (that I'd intentionally rolled back and kept at the version prior to 2004) recently stopped working, I decided to give BlueStacks a try and sure enough it worked.

But then I also tried searching around just a little more, and I found what I think is a much better option...and for me at least so far, seems to be a pretty workable solution all things considered:  Oracle's Virtual Box.  Similar to BlueStacks, when started prior to OOYH and running in the background, OOYH seems to sound just as it should...none of the new "crackling" that happened with 2004 appears to occur...and the Virtual Box can importantly be setup to have pretty minimal impact on the CPU.

Now, I admittedly have no idea how/why it works, but I can follow the well written instructions of others, so I will simply link to the "how to" guide I discovered:  https://www.reddit.com/r/razer/comments/khziai/razer_surround_pro_crackling_workaround_on/. Hope others will also find this to be useful.


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## directx1971

Well , i received a feedback from Darin fong the developper of out of your head stating this fix , i tried it on my pc and it works.
The virtual machine may not be the best solution but at least it is a doable workaround until a proper fix is implemented.


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## edwardsean

Yeah, just a PSA for anyone who already doesn't know. 

If you want to keep using OOYH and haven't upgraded to Win10 2004, defeat your auto updates for Windows.


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## phoenixdogfan

edwardsean said:


> Yeah, just a PSA for anyone who already doesn't know.
> 
> If you want to keep using OOYH and haven't upgraded to Win10 2004, defeat your auto updates for Windows.


Is it possible to roll back to an earlier version of Windows.  If that can be done, it would be very useful to publish that in this forum.


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## Peti

Just bought a new Intel NUC and installed OOYH. Cracking noise galore. Pity. I had been using this software on my old laptop with 2015 windows 10 (updates disables on WIN10) with great pleasure. Hopefully Darin gets his software amended so it will be able to be used on the Win10 version I have now and then I will re-purchase my favourite presets.


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## renanrischiotto (Mar 16, 2021)

WOW, this surround software is very different from the classic ones (Dolby, DTS, CMSS etc), its actually very different. I don't know if I like it tho (because is so different, I've never heard something like this before), I need to test some more. I'm using HeSuVi by the way, so no need to mess with that crappy oficial software. I just need to select OOYH and bum  It does look like the sound is out of my head lmao


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## renanrischiotto (Mar 16, 2021)

Yeah this is fun. It's not necessary better than conventional surround softwares, but it's very fun. I strongly recommend to give it a try. The good thing about HeSuVi is that the surrounds "profiles" works deep in Windows, so it affects every sound output, meaning that even videos on YouTube will be affected, any surround option that you choose will affect the whole system, while conventional softwares is limited on what it can actually function. HeSuVi bypasses anything, bypasses the stereo barrier that browsers and YouTube videos have (videos are compressed to stereo), any sound that's coming out of your system, will be affected by the surround "profile" (HRIR) that you choose inside HeSuVi. The system actually thinks that you have a full surround setup. Amazing.


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## Jose Hidalgo (Mar 23, 2021)

To be fair you can do the same thing with Out Of Your Head. Since Out Of Your Head is seen by the system as an audio interface, you just have to configure apps (including browsers, etc.) to output to Out Of Your Head instead of the usual audio interface. Or just define Out Of Your Head as the default audio interface. That can be done pretty easily.

I'm a HeSuVi user too, and I'm happy with it. I find the OOYH_0 preset (the Genelec-based one) quite convincing. With that said, I wonder if there are presets that I would enjoy even more from the Out Of Your Head app, or if I'd better create a custom HRIR from my own head spatial measurements (which may be a difficult task, I don't know).

To me the real problem of Out Of Your Head is *pricing*. Given the fact that HeSuVi is free, I'm clearly not willing to pay 150 bucks + 25 bucks per additional preset just for a couple of additional HRIRs with marginal benefits. I think Darin Fong should seriously revise his business model. I understand that it was probably expensive to create all those HRIRs in various places around the world, but right now the pricing doesn't reflect the software's merits for the final user.

First of all, Out Of Your Head should include all presets. Having people pay more just for additional HRIRs is a bit petty IMO.
And second, the whole package shouldn't cost more than 50 bucks. And that's already expensive given the fact that that great free solutions like HeSuVi exist.
Not to mention that Out Of Your Head isn't even fully compatible with Windows 10 yet. That's a real shame for a software that costs so much !
Don't get me wrong : I love Out Of Your Head, and I think Darin Fong has a lot of merit in capturing all those great HRIRs. I just think the pricing is wrong, and updates could clearly be more efficient.


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## DenverW

I'm a big fan of OOYH too, but the first thing that needs to get fixed isn't the business model, its the software issue with windows 10.  The work around didnt work for me, and its pretty darn annoying that there has been little to no communication, and no fix.  I'm seeing this as money down the drain at this point, as I'm not convinced anything is actively being done.

Sorry to be grumpy about it.


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## W1ll1eTheP1mp

Hey. Is it possible to use OOYH or HeSuVi with Roon? Ive became a huge fan of binauarally recorded music and i really like spatial sudio/3d audio etc. What is the difference between OOYH and HeSuVi? 

If i could wish my self two things:

1: a small portable device like Smyth Realiser A16 in pocket for and not coating more than 500 usd. That device should make your own music sound extremely convincing in regards of the "out of your head" feeling. Like a lot of the binauarally recorded albums. 

2:That most artist also recorded their albums/music binaurally for all the people who use headphones/IEMs. It should be standardized! 

What do u guys think? Is there a solution with Roon so i can enjoy my music with that kind of tech? Either hardware or software without coating an arm?


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## Jose Hidalgo

Clearly any half-serious developer would have fixed a Windows 10 compatibility issue in a matter of days/weeks. Especially for a software that costs so much. Sorry but it's the truth. If Darin Fong can't find a way to make his software work with Windows 10, maybe he should seek external help and pay for it ?


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## Jose Hidalgo

W1ll1eTheP1mp said:


> Hey. Is it possible to use OOYH or HeSuVi with Roon? Ive became a huge fan of binauarally recorded music and i really like spatial sudio/3d audio etc. What is the difference between OOYH and HeSuVi?


Why couldn't you ?
Roon is a music player.
HeSuVi is an Equalizer APO plug-in, and Equalizer APO is a system-wide equalizer. Hence HeSuVi should be compatible with Roon.
As for OOYH, it's seen as an audio interface, so Roon should see it in a list of audio interfaces and be able to output to it.


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## edwardsean (Jun 15, 2021)

Well, I finally caved and tried out* Apple Music's Spatial Audio. *

I was attracted because I love the idea of engineers having Atmos at their disposal to mix tracks. I was resistant because the downside is that this means that each track has to be manually remixed. Even if takes hold, the chance of any significant portion of my library seeing the Atmos treatment is slim. It's like the situation with Hi-Res or Tidal Masters but much, much worse. (With those you don't need a top-flight engineer, and even the artist, to go back to release a higher sample rate or MQA version.)

Still, I try to listen to every piece of tech that attempts virtual surround, so I had to give it a spin. Well, let me cut to the chase: Yuck. No, that's too harsh. I mean: Ick. Okay, I'm being childish, but with good reason. The reason is that it's kinda gross.

I listened to their "made for spatial audio," "hits in spatial audio," and the one album that even won praise from critics: Norah Jones' "Come Away with Me." Reviewers said that it was this album that showed off the potential of Atmos over stereo. I don't know, give me the 2-channel mix.

You have to understand I wasn't using AirPods or whatever. I was running it through my $30K headphone system (Dave + Upscaler + Sean Jacobs power supply + Innuous Phoenix + Custom built server, etc. etc.). I've never hated the sound from this system.

Don't get me wrong I could not be more impressed with Atmos technology. I believe it is astonishing for what it does for movies. It's why I was mildly excited for Spatial Audio even against my reservations. But, this experience made me feel like we've made such little progress from the cheap, echoey, phasey, mushy messes of the early "3D" algorithms. If you ask me how did Spatial Audio sound? It sounded better than that but still results in that ilk of artificial, hollow imagery.

Anway... I'm writing this (ranting this) here because OOYH setup properly is just incomparably superior. The simplest way I can describe the difference is that Spatial Audio sounds fake. After all that effort, money, and brilliance it doesn't get closer to realism than 2.0.  OOYH–if you get it right–sounds real. It is an actual audiophile tool and not a gimmick. It fits in my system and elevates it instead of degrading it. I also mean "real" in the sense that it achieves the goal of audiophile equipment to render a realistic reproduction. I know there are those who may feel that OOYH sounds fake, but it does require work to get it to sound right. There is really nothing to do with spatial audio but to turn it on.

Atmos still seems promising to me in theory, but so far, excepting more esoteric technology: BAACH, the most effective approach is still convolution like Realiser and OOYH.


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## Jose Hidalgo

edwardsean said:


> OOYH–if you get it right–sounds real. [...] it does require work to get it to sound right.


Thanks for your insight. And what would you advise ? What work are you talking about exactly ?  
I'm asking this for the day OOYH will offer full Win 10 compatibility, because that's a bummer right now.


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## edwardsean

Jose Hidalgo said:


> Thanks for your insight. And what would you advise ? What work are you talking about exactly ?
> I'm asking this for the day OOYH will offer full Win 10 compatibility, because that's a bummer right now.


I'm waiting on Win10 compatibility too. In the meanwhile I'm staving off Win updates though it's causing problems with other parts of my system. Luckily on the Mac side, OOYH works on the current builds without an update. Still, I'm not taking chances and I've stopped updating there too. Monterrey will really force a decision for me, but I am doing whatever I can to keep using OOYH. 

As for "work," the essential effort goes into finding the preset that fits your HRTF and hearing. It takes time to test different presets properly allowing yourself to adjust to each one. One day, I still hope for my Realiser to be delivered and I can make a custom preset for Darin to convert. 

Once you've settled on the preset, I find you still have to tune with good quality parametric EQ software.  I've also found upscaling with HQPlayer to 768KHz–after–OOYH improves the OOYH processing along with the information on the source wav file. 

From there, you do have to work on the level of system building. I thought as my gear improved I would find OOYH would become a bottleneck. Instead I found that the limiting factor was my gear. With each upgrade of the system OOYH's processing became more natural and precise. So, I've chosen and tested my components, hardware and software, with OOYH in the chain. I've treated it like any other component and factor it into the overall system synergy.

I love euphonic, romantic sounding gear, but I know that my OOYH preset is also adding some of that through the IR of sampled gear. So, I've shifted to more pristine, neutral sounding hardware/software. If I didn't do that I might blame OOYH entirely for sounding too soft and warm. If I were set on a very clean, bright preset I would do the opposite. 

When I work on my system, whether adding a new piece, or tuning with cables, I listen with OOYH. For example I use Audeze Reveal with my Audeze headphones. I calibrate it with OOYH in the mix. If I set it without OOYH and then switched it on, it would sound off, and I would be tempted to think it was a problem with OOYH. I'm also using a complicated upmixing processing chain to send 2.0 into OOYH's surround speakers. It is amazingly effective. 

This may just be common sense, but I initially thought of OOYH as an effect that gets put on top of my established system. I thought I could I just install it and dial in any preset I like. I had to shift into thinking of it rather as a component of the system. This has required my willingness to not just adjust OOYH to my system but to adapt my system to it. The effort has been truly well rewarded.


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## audiohobbit

edwardsean said:


> good quality parametric EQ software


What software do you use here, freeware or paid?


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## edwardsean

audiohobbit said:


> What software do you use here, freeware or paid?


I have a raft of pro-level EQs. Fabfilter, Sonnox, Equilibrium may be a bit pricey, but are great. There was a cheap alternative Apqualizer that was very transparent and good quality, but I don't know if it's still around.


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## mammal

Anyone using macOS Big Sur? I am getting an error installing OOYH on it, something with legacy extensions no longer being supported  or has the development of this amazing software (Realiser A16 replacement) stopped? Thanks


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## edwardsean

I’m using OOYH on Big Sur. It didn’t work and then with one of the updates, it started to work again. I’m on 11.3.1 and scared to move. I’m still not sure what I’m going to do once Monterey hits.


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## Benny-x

edwardsean said:


> I'm waiting on Win10 compatibility too. In the meanwhile I'm staving off Win updates though it's causing problems with other parts of my system. Luckily on the Mac side, OOYH works on the current builds without an update. Still, I'm not taking chances and I've stopped updating there too. Monterrey will really force a decision for me, but I am doing whatever I can to keep using OOYH.
> 
> As for "work," the essential effort goes into finding the preset that fits your HRTF and hearing. It takes time to test different presets properly allowing yourself to adjust to each one. One day, I still hope for my Realiser to be delivered and I can make a custom preset for Darin to convert.
> 
> ...


What's your chain like? 

I have Roon, HQPlayer, and OOYH, but I have never thought of how they could be connected together.


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## edwardsean

My hardware chain basically is: Custom server (+modified Farad LPS) > optical (+LPS1.2)> Innuos Phoenix>SRC-DX dual BNC> Chord Dave (Sean Jacobs PS)

My software chain is complex because of all the preprocessing/remastering I do. I use OOYH in that process. I take 44.1 wav files and run them through a matrix where I EQ, apply Reveal, upmix via Nugen to quad channel output to OOYH and then upscale to 768KHz. For the last part I used to use HQP-Pro, but now I’m on the new PGGB, which is just stellar. 

I’ve become convinced that upscaling (via HQP, PGGB) the results of OOYH not only upscales the source file but also OOYH’s effect. I’ve been stunned by the results. Of course, you can only upscale/upsample after OOYH (48Khz), which is how I stumbled on to it. 

I use preprocessing for all of it because that gets me around the noise generated by live processing. However, if you are willing to take the hit there is no reason you can’t do it live, as long as your computer can handle the load. You would need something like Rogue Amoeba’s Audio Hijack or Loopback, but I think you can also just set it up through free extensions like Soundflower or IShowU. 

You would set Roon to output to OOYH then set OOYH to output to, e.g., IShowU, and then select IShowU as the input for HQPlayer and then output HQP to your DAC as normal. 

It’s worth experimenting. Good luck!


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## Benny-x

It still kills me that the developer called it Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. 

That's cool to hear that you've got the DAVE, the real target of PGGB, and you've tested all these other combinations and you still ended up with PGGB. 

I have a T+A DAC 8 DSD, so DSD512 is my delivery format. 

That's for going into the details on the chain and recommending how I could swing it. I appreciate it


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## edwardsean

Benny-x said:


> It still kills me that the developer called it Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.
> 
> That's cool to hear that you've got the DAVE, the real target of PGGB, and you've tested all these other combinations and you still ended up with PGGB.
> 
> ...


Yeah for DSD especially, Jussi (HQP) really knows what’s he’s doing!

If you have time though PGGB does have a free trial. It really is out of this world, galaxy, even.


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## Virtualizerman

Has there been any news or progress on further development of OOYH? I hope Darin F. is doing well. Having used Hesuvi with the recommended Genelec preset from Mega Switcher's developer, I was very impressed. The trial I thought was very honest and I picked up on a few presets that I wouldn't mind paying for to support the developer, but it is not fully functional (crackle, hissing and pops because of latency due to OS changes) and apparently the Windows version has not been updated since 2017. The site is also a bit of a ramshackle affair as of 2021 and I wouldn't feel comfortable handing over payment information or other details through the portal at this point.

I understand with the events of the past few years things have been difficult for everybody and maybe things have changed entirely in some people's lives. I also hope that none of the brands associated with the various presets have seen fit to put a halt to the program for various reasons, because this is probably some of the best advertising available for big ticket items that most people will never even know of or be able to hear otherwise (though some may feel the presets don't do their products justice). If that is not the case, I think Darin could move to a more mass market approach and have the program added to Steam or other marketplaces once it is fully functional. 

In any case, I'd like to thank the developer for contributing to the popularization of room-effect HRTF and the idea of speaker emulation which seems at this point to be superior to most of the generic output from most of the competing algorithms. Please allow it to continue if you are still able.


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## Jose Hidalgo

Virtualizerman said:


> Having used Hesuvi with the recommended Genelec preset from Mega Switcher's developer, I was very impressed.


Hi @Virtualizerman . I'm Mega Switcher's developer, and I'm glad that you are enjoying it. 
Most of the merit goes to HeSuVi's developer, and to Darin F. I suppose for the ooyh_0 preset included with HeSuVi.
I too hope OOHY can be updated to avoid its current share of issues.
In the meantime, Mega Switcher may be the "next best thing" for headphone lovers. It works and it's free !


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## DenverW

I'm at the point where I would like an update on if this is ever being worked on, or a refund.   I haven't received a reply to a direct message I sent a while ago, so I don't think i'll be getting anything I like .


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## davidtriune (Oct 2, 2021)

wait, you guys haven't tried this solution yet? https://fongaudio.com/work-around-for-windows-10-2004-bug/

It's worked for me for several months now. my win is always updated.


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## davidtriune (Oct 15, 2021)

im a big fan of OOYH and my favorite setup is ER4SR with a -30db slant EQ (using equalizer APO) on PBN Audio Sammy preset. It sounds exactly like its in my room.





HD600 w/no EQ is good too.


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## Jose Hidalgo

A -30 dB tilt ? 😱 Oh boy, that can't be any good...
If we take 1 KHz as the reference "zero" frequency, you are talking about a +20 dB bass/midrange boost, and then a -10 dB treble attenuation. That's... I have no words for that. 😳


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## edwardsean

Jose Hidalgo said:


> A -30 dB tilt ? 😱 Oh boy, that can't be any good...
> If we take 1 KHz as the reference "zero" frequency, you are talking about a +20 dB bass/midrange boost, and then a -10 dB treble attenuation. That's... I have no words for that. 😳


That does seem like an extreme slant to me too, but then again I think the Ety's could use a lift in the bass and some of the OOYH presets are hot in the treble region. 

If the OP is happy, then that's what counts. It may also be worth it though to revisit EQ over time.


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## davidtriune

PBN Audio Sammy is both the screechiest but also the smoothest treble. it usually sounds better with a -10 db tilt. 
ety IEMs are way too screechy and need a -20 db tilt by themselves to sound like full size headphones. but they have the advantage of only simulating the ear canal which is better for binaural recordings, which usually include pinna gain. headphones add your pinna gain on top of the pinna gain and would not sound as accurate.


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## DenverW

davidtriune said:


> wait, you guys haven't tried this solution yet? https://fongaudio.com/work-around-for-windows-10-2004-bug/
> 
> It's worked for me for several months now. my win is always updated.


Tried it, and not only is it an extremely annoying work around, it did not work for me.  There was no change.  I think several others had no luck with this as well.


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## edwardsean

I've been able to stave off updating Windows, but I'm at a point where I'm going to have to move to the current version. The one thing that is holding me back is, of course, OOYH. 

I've been reading conflicting reports on the Virtual Box workaround. Is it effective? I wanted to ask here before I updated Windows, since there is no going back.

Thanks!


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## davidtriune

ok i thought my windows is updated, but actually it's only 20H2. Latest is 21H1. Dont know why it doesnt install the latest one. 
It's definitely working in this version, and I'm using it at the moment. 
You can even pause the virtualbox instance to save some CPU power and itll work fine.


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## directx1971

edwardsean said:


> I've been able to stave off updating Windows, but I'm at a point where I'm going to have to move to the current version. The one thing that is holding me back is, of course, OOYH.
> 
> I've been reading conflicting reports on the Virtual Box workaround. Is it effective? I wanted to ask here before I updated Windows, since there is no going back.
> 
> Thanks!


I can also confirm that it works very well , dont be alarmed by the length of this workaround as it biols down to a double click on the 
desktop shortcut you created for the virtual machine , that's all there is to it , also you have 10 days to rollback the update , so when you install the update if it didnt work out
Well you can go back to normal (i also tried upgrading then rolling back may be more than once (before this workaround) ) as the first time i decided to give up on OOYH
And go for the update then after few days i missed it so i had to rollback as there was no workaround at the time then i needed the update for better 
compatibility with some apps so i did the update once again ...etc dont remember how many times i kept doing the update then rolling back thing , but the important thing is
i had my fare share of the update and rolling back so can confirm that it works , so you have nothing to lose really.


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## dlaloum

Has anyone tried Windows 11 with OOYH? 

It would be good to know whether the bug is still there with Win11 or whether the Windows update gets rid of it.


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## edwardsean (Oct 26, 2021)

Along those lines, please post if you know if OOYH Mac works on newly released Monterrey.

Edit: Also, I don't know the details of the virtual machine workaround, but has anyone tried getting OOYH to work on a Mac using Windows on Parallels?


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## dlaloum

Just thought I would bump the thread - anyone tried OOYH with Win11 or the latest Win10 updates?

Is the workaround still needed - or does it work on its own?

Thanks


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## laserjet6

dlaloum said:


> Just thought I would bump the thread - anyone tried OOYH with Win11 or the latest Win10 updates?
> 
> Is the workaround still needed - or does it work on its own?
> 
> Thanks


Hi, 
I'm running OOYH on Win 11 on Alder Lake and it works the same as Win10 Used to. You still need a  VM running in the background, but other than that all is fine.


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## Benny-x

@darinf 
Do we have any kind of hope that OOYH will get like a "last stand" update to native compatibility with W11? 

It'd be pretty meaningful for us longtime customers to get some clear guidance on this, especially if it's all EOL now and the background VM workaround is all there's going to be and thems just the breaks after ~10 years.


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## Benny-x

Almost 6 months on, I'm still holding out for an answer (hopefully the positive one) from @darinf


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## Nec3

I think it's safe to say HeSuVi has totally replaced OOYH for me. The ease of installation, flawless integration (no bugs), the lack of latency, and having an active FR graph laid out on a visual software (equalizer APO) has turned me away from OOYH.
I've purchased 4 plugins from Darin Fong, but having to email him everytime I want my plugins enabled is such a hassle for both parties.

HeSuVi, EQ APO and Foobar have been my holy trinity for music.


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