# Do Interconnects Impact SQ in an Audio Chain?



## myinitialsaredac

Okay, I am writing a research paper for my English 101 course and I am writing about whether or not interconnects impact SQ in an audio chain. As I've seen many of the flame wars going on here I felt that where would be a better place to get an opinion from the very people buying or nay-saying them. Please answer yes or no. 

 SQ means Sound Quality and refers to any aspect of the sound your transducer reproduces. So soundstage, decay, attack, any change in sound should be reported as an opinion of yes. If you are looking for the yes, but only by a small amount then answer yes. This means that you believe there is even the slightest difference in sound between a paperclip IC and a Cardas Reference etc. 

 If you believe interconnects do not affect sound at all, please say no. This means that you believe there isn't even the slightest difference in sound between a paperclip IC and a Cardas Reference etc. 

 Please keep any arguments away from this thread, there are countless others to argue in. I'm assuming there may have been a poll done like this before, but I need current data, and as there is a continuously growing head-fi population, I want as many opinions as possible.

 The poll is private to ensure honesty!

 Thank You!

 Dave


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## panda

you should have just done a scale of 0-5 where as 0 represents no impact and 5 means 100%
 i would have voted a 1 on that scale.


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## markieta

I believe they are very important.

 Don't skimp on anything, 
 listen in bliss,
 say sorry to your wallet after.


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## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *panda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you should have just done a scale of 0-5 where as 0 represents no impact and 5 means 100%
 i would have voted a 1 on that scale._

 

I did think about that but I felt it best to keep it as a binary question. After all, if you feel that they effect the SQ to a small degree then the variables of your system, your outlets, your hearing, and what cables did you try - as well as a plethora of other variables - comes into play as counter arguments to the effectiveness of your experience. 

 In other words, if you feel it changes it a to a small degree, one could ask, "was your system able to optimize the cable, was the cable able to optimize your system, and is your hearing acute enough to hear the minutiae?'

 This creates far too broad a subject for my paper, I would have written through all 15 pages discussing it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for voting!
 Dave


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## qusp

absolutely theres a difference, not night and day, but to my ears and with my gear; I notice a difference. its not a night and day difference, but as tweaks go its substantial. plus I have peace of mind knowing that I have given my other components the best chance of sounding good, so its easier for me to know what can be improved in my system


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## JaZZ

Yes, clearly so (although still subtly, compared to sound transducers).


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## tintin47

I don't really know if it makes a difference. Probably not, but I am always going to get decent gold plated interconnects just to make sure that they don't negatively affect anything. I am never going to fork over $30+ for a pair of RCA jacks but I have no problem with ~$10 for decent Vampire connectors or the such. It seems to me that all you really need to worry about is whether the interconnect is better than the worst piece of wire in your entire chain. If it is, then I say they can't change the sound, because they are such a short part of the chain.

 Also, why are you writing a paper about this in an english class?


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## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tintin47* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, why are you writing a paper about this in an english class?_

 

Thanks for voting first off. 
 Secondly, I am interested in electrical engineering with a specific focus on audio applications, and have already done an experiment doing electrical measurements on interconnects. That said, I found it to be a very fitting topic for a paper I'll be cuddling with at night for a month. 

 *EDIT* I think i misinterpreted your question. The research paper was on a topic of our choosing.

 Dave


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## webbie64

Good question so I checked. Tried the system without interconnects. Got my answer.


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## Happy Camper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *webbie64* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good question so I checked. Tried the system without interconnects. Got my answer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm guessing the sound was airier with no bass. 

 Yepper they do make a difference.


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## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *webbie64* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good question so I checked. Tried the system without interconnects. Got my answer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha thanks for the opinion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Dave


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## my.self

personally for me, i believe IC's do change sq, but not much. only a little bit or somewhat. what i wonder tho is what makes the change in SQ enjoyable to the human ears? like do they raise the level of this and that or what? and why is it that it sounds good to most people. i believe that the more expensive ones, possibly ALO audio or soloz audio do make a difference in terms of sq, but not much imo. i wonder what is it about their IC's that make us like the sq of them. an IC is just supposed to transfer data from one spot to another. what is it about the IC's and the sound improvement? as well as what is that sound that makes it sound "good" to the human ear?

 heh, i know it may sound confusing and i possibly asked multiple questions. it was hard to explain what i was getting to. i dont think theres a definite answer to it tho. maybe there is, idk.


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## analogbox

It does make a real difference but the cost always seems more than what you get in return.


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## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *my.self* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_personally for me, i believe IC's do change sq, but not much. only a little bit or somewhat. what i wonder tho is what makes the change in SQ enjoyable to the human ears? like do they raise the level of this and that or what? and why is it that it sounds good to most people. i believe that the more expensive ones, possibly ALO audio or soloz audio do make a difference in terms of sq, but not much imo. i wonder what is it about their IC's that make us like the sq of them. an IC is just supposed to transfer data from one spot to another. what is it about the IC's and the sound improvement? as well as what is that sound that makes it sound "good" to the human ear?

 heh, i know it may sound confusing and i possibly asked multiple questions. it was hard to explain what i was getting to. i dont think theres a definite answer to it tho. maybe there is, idk._

 

The other side is what makes the other ICs sound bad? One can argue that a "good" IC doesn't sound great to everyone, the problem is sound is all subjective, which is why there are many headphone companies 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We all have different tastes which is why you see people going through multiple pairs of transducers/amps/dacs/ICs etc. to find the sound that suits them. 

 Just food for thought,

 Dave


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## my.self

hmm yea i see what ur saying. i really just wanna know tho whats the connection between the human brain/ears and an IC that makes them sound "good". an IC is mainly just used for connecting dap's to amps. the sq change is more of a add-on or bonus. i just wonder how something just meant for transfering data from one place to another can alter the sq in a way we like it. i guess im kinda asking how come bass is attractive to people or lots of mids or little bass for others, how is that similar to IC's and the human brain. and of course, like u said, everyone likes something different. what is it about that certain sound that makes us attracted to it?


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## screwglue

my idea: someone build a machine that has a place to dock ipod, and a headphone jack. then inside it's like a cd changer. you can like press 1. for copper 2. for silver 3. for silver plated copper


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## NajoBB

No


 unless they're bad²


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No


 unless they're bad²_

 

Yes, unless your deaf.


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## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No


 unless they're bad²_

 

I like this answer.


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## Currawong

Maybe not as much the difference in components, but with, say, a Stax rig, I can easily discern the difference in interconnects. Some that I have here reveal more detail in a (high quality) recording, using others results in a slightly different EQ (eg: brighter sound). I agree it's somewhat subtle, unless you went from Radioshack cheapies to what I'm using right now.


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## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, unless your deaf._

 


 Wrong.


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## nick_charles

The data from blind tests of interconnect cables to date would suggest a range of none to none, but if anyone can point to contrary blind listening test data I am always happy to read it , and no "My Wife was in the kitchen and she noticed the difference" anecdotes please


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrong._


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## NajoBB

Nice pic. I recommend a haircut though. This one is nice: stylish and improves visibility.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice pic. I recommend a haircut though. This one is nice: stylish and improves visibility.




_

 

Yes but it does cover your ears, maybe that is why you have hearing problems.

 Maybe when more of your equipment is not "On The Way" then you can buy a nice set of cables and compare to your cheapo cables and then tell us what your opinion is. So far your comments have been made using no real world experience and are usless to the rest of us who are willing to drink when lead to water.

 Over and out.


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## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but it does cover your ears, maybe that is why you have hearing problems._

 

Instructions: follow the arrow below to see my haircut.
 <

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe when more of your equipment is not "On The Way" then you can buy a nice set of cables and compare to your cheapo cables and then tell us what your opinion is. So far your comments have been made using no real world experience and are usless to the rest of us who are willing to drink when lead to water.

 Over and out._

 

My apologies and thanks for reminding me to update my profile. As for real world experience, i have it and you're wrong. Instead of writing useless comments yourself try to figure out why.


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## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe when more of your equipment is not "On The Way" then you can buy a nice set of cables and compare to your cheapo cables and then tell us what your opinion is. So far your comments have been made using no real world experience and are usless to the rest of us who are willing to drink when lead to water._

 

That's quite the assumption, and quite a bit of unwarranted rudeness.


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## krmathis

Yeah, they do. Imo that is...
 So many variables (conductor material, insulation, connectors, cable length, design, ...), which all effect the sound quality.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No


 unless they're bad²_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's quite the assumption, and quite a bit of unwarranted rudeness._

 

I am not the one making assumptions. I am also not the one speaking in absolutes without experience.


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## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not the one making assumptions. I am also not the one speaking in absolutes without experience._

 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrong._

 

Again.


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## olblueyez

It is my humble opinion that this cable sounds different and better, not subtle mind you







 Than this cable.






 This cable also sounds different and better and its not subtle






 Than this cable.






 I also strongly suggest that people who make statements like "Interconnects do not make a difference" suffer from one of three things, the world is flat syndrome, a loss of hearing, or a strong desire to argue about something right wrong or indifferent. This is just my opinion mind you.


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## MaZa

Quote:


 I also strongly suggest that people who make statements like "Interconnects do not make a difference" suffer from one of three things, the world is flat syndrome 
 

Actually it probaply is otherway around now that I think about it. Science has proven long ago that earth is not flat but round, and science also claims nowadays that cables as long as they are good do not alter the sound in a way that human ear can pick it up. Others claiming otherwise might be holding on to older apparently nonscientific belief that they do and its audible.

 Personally? I dont know. Of special cables I only have Tara Labs Prism-33 (supposedly warm sounding from what I remember reading about it) interconnects and frankly I dont hear any difference between it and my other cheaper Macrom audio RCA cable. Perhaps there is no difference between copper and copper, which makes sense: copper is a copper is a copper. But I want to hear silver someday too to hear if it alters the sound audibly. It is completely different material from copper afterall. I do consider my rig rather resolving, DAC being possibly only weakish link, so I doubt that is not it.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually it probaply is otherway around now that I think about it. Science has proven long ago that earth is not flat but round, and science also claims nowadays that cables as long as they are good do not alter the sound in a way that human ear can pick it up. Others claiming otherwise might be holding on to older apparently nonscientific belief that they do and its audible.

 Personally? I dont know. Of special cables I only have Tara Labs Prism-33 (supposedly warm sounding from what I remember reading about it) interconnects and frankly I dont hear any difference between it and my other cheaper Macrom audio RCA cable. Perhaps there is no difference between copper and copper, which makes sense: copper is a copper is a copper. But I want to hear silver someday too to hear if it alters the sound audibly. It is completely different material from copper afterall._

 

Just so we are crystal clear on this, its not a theory or a belief, I can hear the difference, and it is not a small difference. I had silver/copper hybrid interconnects and headphone cable previously and they did alter the sound in a way I did not like, they have been replaced because I did not like the way they sounded. Also realize your comments are directed at everyone who does hear a difference. Maybe you should ask yourself if they are all hallucinating?

 Science has not proven that cables do not affect sound quality.


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## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just so we are crystal clear on this, its not a theory or a belief, I can hear the difference, and it is not a small difference. I had silver/copper hybrid interconnects and headphone cable previously and they did alter the sound in a way I did not like, they have been replaced because I did not like the way they sounded. Also realize your comments are directed at everyone who does hear a difference. Maybe you should ask yourself if they are all hallucinating?

 Science has not proven that cables do not affect sound quality._

 


 I was more like pointing out how the otherside sees it. In anycase, the flat earth syndrom insult is wrong from both sides.

 As I said, I have limited experience in cables and so far I havent heard a difference between two pure copper cables. I do want to hear a pure silver someday, so I could compare it against my copper ones. Try to compare extremes, you see.


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## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just so we are crystal clear on this, its not a theory or a belief, I can hear the difference, and it is not a small difference. I had silver/copper hybrid interconnects and headphone cable previously and they did alter the sound in a way I did not like, they have been replaced because I did not like the way they sounded. Also realize your comments are directed at everyone who does hear a difference. Maybe you should ask yourself if they are all hallucinating?

 Science has not proven that cables do not affect sound quality._

 

Forget about the specifics of which cable is being compared to what, but the fact that you can hear a difference doesn't mean there is an objective (measurable). Simply the expectation of a difference is enough for someone to believe they perceive something, and that is very real subjectively, but it may not mean that physically their ears can detect any difference.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Forget about the specifics of which cable is being compared to what, but the fact that you can hear a difference doesn't mean there is an objective (measurable). Simply the expectation of a difference is enough for someone to believe they perceive something, and that is very real subjectively, but it may not mean that physically their ears can detect any difference._

 

I already explained to you that is not the case. What experience do you bring to the table? Saying to everyone who hears a difference that its merely expectations and not a concrete difference is the most insulting comment in this thread. I will say to everyone, maybe you should consider the source when reading threads about cables making a difference or not. Judge the statements based on who is making them instead of taking everything as gospel. Sorry Mr. Maza, that was directed more at the "I want to argue no matter what crowd". I would also like to say that when people say IC's can improve the sound quality of your system its because they wish to share knowledge gained through experience so others can enjoy as well. If some people here wish to try and ruin that for others then there is nothing more I can do than what I have done.


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Science has not proven that cables do not affect sound quality._

 

Where though are the blind listening tests that suggest audible differences between properly designed cables ? . 

 Clearly it is possible to deliberately design a cable that has massive attenuation for some frequency bands. By any rational criteria this could not be considered Hi Fi and you could do this with a simple RLC circuit anyway.

 But where two cables (of whatever price) are designed to let through the signal unaltered is there any evidence that any two such (competent) cables are audibly different other than in overall signal loss due to differences in gauge ? I have seen no reliable evdence so far.


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## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I already explained to you that is not the case._

 

Where did you explain it?

  Quote:


 What experience do you bring to the table? Saying to everone who hears a difference that its merely expectations and not a concrete difference is the most insulting comment in this thread. 
 

I'm not really implying anything, just enjoying a discussion. However one can choose to look at this from a scientific point of view if they want and they will probably believe that everyone who hears a difference is most likely in many cases imagining it. That does _not_ mean they are not perceiving it, that perception is real but it is manifested from various mental processes be it the power of suggestion (from others), brand, cost justification etc. Most people who feel that way are probably not going to come out and say much about it because it could indeed be insulting to others. 

 There's nothing insulting about implying the "placebo effect" as is often discussed on this forum. That's a well known, proven and demonstrated phenomenon.

 And what experience do I bring? Quite a bit, although I really don't see why you need to bicker with people and try to have them prove themselves to you. It's unlikely you will change your opinion soon if ever, same for many others. Enjoy what you enjoy, listen to the music and let people have a civilized discussion. No reason to be so abrasive.


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## MaZa

Quote:


 But where two cables (of whatever price) are designed to let through the signal unaltered is there any evidence that any two such (competent) cables are audibly different other than in overall signal loss due to differences in gauge ? I have seen no reliable evdence so far. 
 

Thats a good point. People seem to forget that cables are not supposed to have a sound of their own. If some cable adjusts the sound, then that cable is automatically FAULTY cuz it is doing something cable is not supposed to do. It is supposed to transport the signal from equipment to equipment without alteration and loss afterall.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats a good point. People seem to forget that cables are not supposed to have a sound of their own. If some cable adjusts the sound, then that cable is automatically FAULTY cuz it is doing something cable is not supposed to do. It is supposed to transport the signal from equipment to equipment without alteration and loss afterall._

 

Criteria for judging what cable falls into what catagory is where? If they are designed to not alter the signal then why do some use copper and some silver and some both? They are designed to affect sound quality, isnt that the point. If you have a warm thick sounding setup then the coloration offered by silver may be a great thing for you. If you have a 701 headphone (BTW, headphones and amps color the sound just like most every component in your system) and a very analytical solid state amp then copper may be to your liking. Its about using every part your system to Tune the sound to meet your desires. Example of this: I added the Equinox HP cable to my system and it added more bass impact and made the mids more forward, to adjust for added impact in the bass department I removed some Sylvania 5687-GB tubes from my amp and replaced them with Tongsol 5687 tubes and I love what I am hearing. Result of the new cable and replaced tubes are two things the 650's lack in my system according to my taste. I now have more bass impact and a little less weight in the bass and the mids are more forward and sound amazing with vocals, I like Standards and Jazz. Experimenting to find what suits you makes you an audiophile, not searching for some kind of imaginary neutrality that may or may not be to your liking.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where though are the blind listening tests that suggest audible differences between properly designed cables ? . 

 Clearly it is possible to deliberately design a cable that has massive attenuation for some frequency bands. By any rational criteria this could not be considered Hi Fi and you could do this with a simple RLC circuit anyway.

But where two cables (of whatever price) are designed to let through the signal unaltered is there any evidence that any two such (competent) cables are audibly different other than in overall signal loss due to differences in gauge ? I have seen no reliable evdence so far._

 

Your right about one thing, If they were all designed to be the same then they would all sound the same.


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## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Criteria for judging what cable falls into what catagory is where?_

 


 Not sure what you mean?

 From subjective POV, this matter cannot be judged. If cables alter the sound, then what cable is faithfull to original signal?

 From scientific POV, any cable that is measurably good, non resistance and low impedance etc... will do, and if its thick or conductive enough for the signal strength. Preferably well shielded from outside interference too. All in all, it measurably shouldnt do anything than conduct that is.


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## MooBin

Interconnects make a big difference - but it is impossîble to make absolute statements about the quality of specific ones. A general statement about tendencies how they alter the sound, however, may be given. (They always alter the sound - but they wont make a bad system sound good). The system as a whole needs to be optimized and this is always in context with the other components. I tried interconnects in my big system in a price range from 200 until more than 1500 $ for the pair (one meter length). The Fastaudio interconnects for 280 sounded better in the context of my system than anything more expensive. Every optimization may be a small change but everything together will make a really very huge difference. This includes the room as well etc., etc. I think I was optimizing for many years until I got the sound right. Now I feel the system may not be optimized anymore further. If I tell you I use only Canton Digital 2 speakers you would never believe what I get out of them.

 ...however this cannot be said about my bedside earphone based system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here some help is needed concerning an interconnect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 although I am well aware that I may only expect general tendencies as an answer to my question.


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your right about one thing, If they were all designed to be the same then they would all sound the same._

 

Why would you want to design a cable that deliberately alters the sound, something which any Equalizer could do and with much more predictale results than arbitrarily swapping wires.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would you want to design a cable that deliberately alters the sound, something which any Equalizer could do and with much more predictale results than arbitrarily swapping wires._

 

Like I said, where is the criteria for your cable judgements?


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## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saying to everyone who hears a difference that its merely expectations and not a concrete difference is the most insulting comment in this thread._

 

And that's from the same person who previously posted this:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, unless your deaf._

 

...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would also like to say that when people say IC's can improve the sound quality of your system its because they wish to share knowledge gained through experience so others can enjoy as well. If some people here wish to try and ruin that for others then there is nothing more I can do than what I have done._

 

I didn't seen anybody arguing with other guys that have said that it makes a difference. Why? Because you're the only one here pushing your believing on others. No one said that people who spend a lot of money on cables are stupid. For whatever reason they do it i respect them. But i don't respect people who get offended when someone disagrees with them.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MooBin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interconnects make a big difference - but it is impossîble to make absolute statements about the quality of specific ones. A general statement about tendencies how they alter the sound, however, may be given. (They always alter the sound - but they wont make a bad system sound good). The system as a whole needs to be optimized and this is always in context with the other components. I tried interconnects in my big system in a price range from 200 until more than 1500 $ for the pair (one meter length). The Fastaudio interconnects for 280 sounded better in the context of my system than anything more expensive. Every optimization may be a small change but everything together will make a really very huge difference. This includes the room as well etc., etc. I think I was optimizing for many years until I got the sound right. Now I feel the system may not be optimized anymore further. If I tell you I use only Canton Digital 2 speakers you would never believe what I get out of them.

 ...however this cannot be said about my bedside earphone based system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Here some help is needed concerning an interconnect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 although I am well aware that I may only expect general tendencies as an answer to my question._

 

Someone who gets it!


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## MooBin

Equalizer may only alter certain parameters, I think the cable question is more complex. As they do alter something this needs to be for "the better" - meaning they compensate for something else in the reproduction chain - if for example the preamp shows too much analytic tendencies which do sound not good to you (the listener is also part of the whole system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) then an antidote in form of the "right" interconnects may be given (without compromising on transparency). An equalizer (most of the equalizers actually worsen things) may not be able to do that. What is "right" is subjective. I believe the aim should be to reproduce what has been played - but who has been there when it was recorded ? However you probably know how a trumpet should sound and you immediately feel that there is something missing if it does not sound "right" and vice versa.


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## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said, where is the criteria for your cable judgements?_

 


 Now I see the point you are aiming.

 Ask yourself, what is an interconnect, not necessarily audio device but interconnects in general be it audio rca or video cable? What it was originally designed to do and what it should do and what is expected of it? Answer is quite obvious.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And that's from the same person who previously posted this:

*"No.....Unless they are bad"*

 I didn't seen anybody arguing with other guys that have said that it makes a difference. Why? Because you're the only one here pushing your believing on others. No one said that people who spend a lot of money on cables are stupid. For whatever reason they do it i respect them. But i don't respect people who get offended when someone disagrees with them._

 

I see this is still some kind of an argument game for you and that you still have nothing to offer except "No.....Unless they are bad"

 You are now on my ignore list, don't bother writing any more posts directed at me.


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said, where is the criteria for your cable judgements?_

 

It should have been obvious from my posts, but to be explict. A cable should, in so far as is possible[1], pass a signal from source to target with no changes or degradation. 


 1 - Some signal loss is inevitable, but the cable should alter the signal as little as possible.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MooBin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Equalizer may only alter certain parameters, I think the cable question is more complex. As they do alter something this needs to be for "the better" - meaning they compensate for something else in the reproduction chain - if for example the preamp shows too much analytic tendencies which do sound not good to you (the listener is also part of the whole system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) then an antidote in form of the "right" interconnects may be given (without compromising on transparency). An equalizer (most of the equalizers actually worsen things) may not be able to do that. What is "right" is subjective. I believe the aim should be to reproduce what has been played - but who has been there when it was recorded ? However you probably know how a trumpet should sound and you immediately feel that there is something missing if it does not sound "right" and vice versa._

 

Smart person, nice comments.


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## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats a good point. People seem to forget that cables are not supposed to have a sound of their own. If some cable adjusts the sound, then that cable is automatically FAULTY cuz it is doing something cable is not supposed to do. *It is supposed to transport the signal from equipment to equipment without alteration and loss afterall*._

 


 I agree.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It should have been obvious from my posts, but to be explict. A cable should, in so far as is possible[1], pass a signal from source to target with no changes or degradation. 


 1 - Some signal loss is inevitable, but the cable should alter the signal as little as possible._

 

How should everybody else other than you judge this?

 "I believe the aim should be to reproduce what has been played - but who has been there when it was recorded ? However you probably know how a trumpet should sound and you immediately feel that there is something missing if it does not sound "right" and vice versa".

 It seems you have not accounted for individual taste and different equipment other than your own. If someone could build a cable that sounded neutral on every amp and with every headphone dont you think someone would have made a fortune already? Your logic would dictate that all cables are faulty except for ??????


----------



## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How should everybody else other than you judge this?

 "I believe the aim should be to reproduce what has been played - but who has been there when it was recorded ? However you probably know how a trumpet should sound and you immediately feel that there is something missing if it does not sound "right" and vice versa"._

 



 No, it shouldnt try to reproduce what the trumpet sounded in the recording studio as that is impossible because of the recording equipment used between it and final mixing and mastering, but how it sounds in the recording, accurate reproduction of the source. If cable does some alterations, it deviates from the recording. This is ofcourse how I personally see hifi equipment.

 Are you honestly claiming that cables should alter the signal and it is their job? Now, if you like it thats different story, people use all kinds of means to EQ the sound all the time to adjust sound for their liking and thats fine. Still, signal altering cable doesnt really do what interconnects originally were supposed to do.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it shouldnt try to reproduce what the trumpet sounded in the recording studio as that is impossible because of the recording equipment used, but how it sounds in the recording. If cable does some alterations, it deviates from the recording.

 Are you honestly claiming that cables should alter the signal and it is their job? Now, if you like it thats different story, people use all kinds of means to EQ the sound all the time to adjust sound for their liking and thats fine. Still, signal altering cable doesnt really do what interconnects originally were supposed to do._

 

Define neutral as it applies to every headphone system owned in this forum. Why is it OK for an amp to color sound or a source and not a cable? Thread title is "Do IC's affect sound quality? Not the theory of cable design and what cables should do.


----------



## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Define neutral as it applies to every headphone system owned in this fourm._

 


 Yes yes I know I know, there isnt perfectly neutral rig. Such is impossible especially because how headphones interact with our ears, flat isnt necessarily "flat". Again, all I am saying that if you want to use some means of EQ to shape the sound for your liking, that is fine. I just want to clarify that interconnects are not supposed to alter the signal, they are supposed to transport signal from device to another. If you use them for other means, then thats fine. I am still interested in finding out it such alteration is even possible by any cable that is well made and using good materials.


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is it ok for an amp to color sound or a source and not a cable?_

 

Ok, this is the most ridiculous post I've seen for a while. Thanks for putting me on that list even if you cant see this. I fell stupid right now for arguing with someone like you.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes yes I know I know, there isnt perfectly neutral rig. Such is impossible especially because how headphones interact with our ears, flat isnt necessarily "flat". Again, all I am saying that if you want to use some means of EQ to shape the sound for your liking, that is fine._

 

Ok Maza, I hear you.


----------



## mark_h

Yup!


----------



## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, this is the most ridiculous post I've seen for a while. Thanks for putting me on that list even if you cant see this. I fell stupid right now for arguing with someone like you._

 

From what I've seen, if you agree with him he'll call you smart, however if you disagree he'll argue with you, blame everyone for arguing with him (while he's the one starting the argument) and say some sort of curt and abrasive thing implying you're hopelessly outclassed and misinformed


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Still, signal altering cable doesnt really do what interconnects originally were supposed to do._

 

I think what he meant was that alterations are inevitable. Like there's no neutral source, amp or sound transducer, although they all* are produced with the goal of minimizing colorations. (* there are exceptions)

 Indeed every hi-fi component I have encountered has altered the sound more or less in one or the other way (to my ears). Cables are no exception.
.


----------



## MaZa

To Najobb and olblueyez

 Personally I think ignore feature is often used bit too hastily, in this case too. It does nothing but close your eyes on the problem... You had a disagreement, so what? People cant have differing views? Thats just my opinion though...


----------



## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think what he meant was that alterations are inevitable. Like there's no neutral source, amp or sound transducer, although they all* are produced with the goal of minimizing colorations. (* there are exceptions)

 Indeed every hi-fi component I have encountered has altered the sound more or less in one or the other way (to my ears). Cables are no exception.
._

 



 Aaaa... Now I see where he is coming from. Thanks for clarification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, INTENTIONALLY designing a cable that alters the signal feels oxymoron.


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I've seen, if you agree with him he'll call you smart, however if you disagree he'll argue with you, blame everyone for arguing with him (while he's the one starting the argument) and say some sort of curt and abrasive thing implying you're hopelessly outclassed and misinformed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I got a similar impression and i really don't like that kind of persons. Anyway, i don't care anymore.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aaaa... Now I see where he is coming from. Thanks for clarification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, INTENTIONALLY designing a cable that alters the signal feels oxymoron._

 

Physics conveys that every signal would alter a signal to some degree. The argument here is that some may alter it in certain ways or to a lesser degree, which some hear as highs/soundstage/attack etc. 
 Saying that cabling was designed to not alter a signal is actually an impossible feat. Cables have to alter a signal inherently (even if the cable doesn't directly any source around it will to some degree etc.) so a possible reason for cables to sound "different" is that they may alter the signal in different ways. 
 Or for those who disbelieve, psychoacoustic/placebo effect may affect people in different ways.

 Cheers,
 Dave


----------



## csroc

Certainly a cable may affect something in transmission, however to really understand whether that matters to a listener, you need to know what the threshold of change for audibility is, and determine how that change in transmission in a cable affects the actual reproduced frequencies. Put simply the question is whether those changes are audible.

 Of course one can simply do double blind testing on all varieties of cables and not worry about the measurements and whatnot and determine whether two cables are audibly different that way.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Certainly a cable may affect something in transmission, however to really understand whether that matters to a listener, you need to know what the threshold of change for audibility is, and determine how that change in transmission in a cable affects the actual reproduced frequencies. Put simply the question is whether those changes are audible.

 Of course one can simply do double blind testing on all varieties of cables and not worry about the measurements and whatnot and determine whether two cables are audibly different that way._

 

Ahh I have given this a bit of thought, and I've taken a few measurements using a pulse generator and an oscilloscope of various interconnects and was able to see electrical differences. That said, we end up in the realm of whether or not those differences are audible. Unfortunately double blind testing is still qualitative. 

 To gain quantitative data on whether or not they can be heard one would need a human head, a sound isolated room, a transducer set, amp, dac, source, the mic, and then various interconnects. Reminds me a bit of.... never mind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Dave


----------



## csroc

Yes they're two different approaches which ultimately tell you different things.

 Similar to the world of color and color matching, etc. there are many measurable differences in colors but do they meet or exceed the just noticeable difference?


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aaaa... Now I see where he is coming from. Thanks for clarification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, INTENTIONALLY designing a cable that alters the signal feels oxymoron._

 

Thats all I was getting at.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes they're two different approaches which ultimately tell you different things.

 Similar to the world of color and color matching, etc. there are many measurable differences in colors but do they meet or exceed the just noticeable difference?_

 

Im curious, your saying the colorations we are talking about are beyond human hearing or very slight as to be extremely hard to notice? Are you also saying that Placebo has a greater effect than actual coloration by the cable?


----------



## csroc

That's the possibility which I am talking about. You can go out on the great wide interwebs and find many people discussing cables (or sonic differences between DACs, amplifiers etc) and there will be staunch naysayers as well as those who will insist they hear differences. 

 Sometimes there really are differences anyone without significant hearing loss should be able to hear. Other times a person who has claimed there are clear differences between things (such as two cables) will not be able to reliably distinguish that difference in a double blind test. That result applies to that person alone, you'd have to test other people to see if it's more generalizable. Performing measurements and knowing something about the limits of human hearing can lead to similar conclusions though.


----------



## olblueyez

Ok, I am with you on that. Do you think its possible for much greater potential when trying to tell the difference if the listener uses one cable for a month and plays the same 20 songs over and over before changing to the second cable?


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I am with you on that. Do you think its possible for much greater potential when trying to tell the difference if the listener uses one cable for a month and plays the same 20 songs over and over before changing to the second cable?_

 

Likely, repetition really helps memory.

 Dave


----------



## csroc

If there's a difference you can tell and it's big enough, perhaps. I don't know what that would really do, although our auditory memory is generally not regarded as being very good IIRC.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If there's a difference you can tell and it's big enough, perhaps. I don't know what that would really do, although our auditory memory is generally not regarded as being very good IIRC._

 

I spent the last year farting with cables and the last six months tube rolling and one thing I learned is quick A-B testing does nothing but add confusion and force a quick decision. When buying a new input tube (Makes the most difference in the sound signature) I would install the new tube and listen and then replace the old tube back into the amp. This did nothing but confuse me as I could hear a difference but I could not tell exactly what that difference was. Spending more time with each tube afforded me a much better understanding of what each different tube sounds like and what it has to offer as far as the sound signature. When I bought my Dac I could tell the difference between non-upsampling and 24/192 but I was unable to tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 until I had the Dac for about a month and listening to my favorite tracks.

 Here is a Monet painting I chose because it is complex.







 If I made some subtle changes, nothing big mind you, would hanging this painting on the wall in the living room for a month or two increase your chances of discovering the changes as apposed to doing an A-B comparison where I flashed pictures at you and asked you to pick out the altered picture? I submit to all the Blind testing people that they are right, blind A-B testing usually confuses people and makes it very hard to make an educated choice. Stereo equipment however, is something we live with and spend many many hours with and I think giving a piece of equipment a fair shot at pleasing you in the long run is so much more productive than dismissing said equipment based on quick decisions. I think this is why so many people do so much equipment swapping, "I bought the AKG 701's for the third time" is a common thing to read in the forums. Anyone can fool people by forcing a rash decision, there is no Science there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I offer these opinions in the hope that some of the nay-sayers might take the time to consider good cables as they had and continue to have a great impact on my listening experience. Thats all I can offer the people in this thread.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent the last year farting with cables and the last six months tube rolling and one thing I learned is quick A-B testing does nothing but add confusion and force a quick decision. When buying a new input tube (Makes the most difference in the sound signature) I would install the new tube and listen and then replace the old tube back into the amp. This did nothing but confuse me as I could hear a difference but I could not tell exactly what that difference was. Spending more time with each tube afforded me a much better understanding of what each different tube sounds like and what it has to offer as far as the sound signature. When I bought my Dac I could tell the difference between non-upsampling and 24/192 but I was unable to tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 until I had the Dac for about a month and listening to my favorite tracks.

 Here is a Monet painting I chose because it is complex.






 If I made some subtle changes, nothing big mind you, would hanging this painting on the wall in the living room for a month or two increase your chances of discovering the changes as apposed to doing an A-B comparison where I flashed pictures at you and asked you to pick out the altered picture? I submit to all the Blind testing people that they are right, blind A-B testing usually confuses people and makes it very hard to make an educated choice. Stereo equipment however, is something we live with and spend many many hours with and I think giving a piece of equipment a fair shot at pleasing you in the long run is so much more productive than dismissing said equipment based on quick decisions. I think this is why so many people do so much equipment swapping, "I bought the AKG 701's for the third time" is a common thing to read in the forums. Anyone can fool people by forcing a rash decision, there is no Science there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I offer these opinions in the hope that some of the nay-sayers might take the time to consider good cables as they had and continue to have a great impact on my listening experience. Thats all I can offer the people in this thread._

 

Great explanation and methodology. Thank you for sharing!

 Dave


----------



## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I offer these opinions in the hope that some of the nay-sayers might take the time to consider good cables as they had and continue to have a great impact on my listening experience. Thats all I can offer the people in this thread._

 

That's the fun of it, those differences you hear are real. It doesn't matter whether it's a measurable/objective difference or a subjective/placebo difference, you still notice them and it improves your enjoyment of the music. I'm not going to tell someone is wrong for what they do in spite of what I know or believe about the matter, and everyone will have to decide for themselves if they're not sure. Experience in the matter never hurt anyone in figuring out for themselves.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the fun of it, those differences you hear are real. It doesn't matter whether it's a measurable/objective difference or a subjective/placebo difference, you still notice them and it improves your enjoyment of the music. I'm not going to tell someone is wrong for what they do in spite of what I know or believe about the matter, and everyone will have to decide for themselves if they're not sure. Experience in the matter never hurt anyone in figuring out for themselves._

 

Also well said!

 Dave


----------



## olblueyez

I know your thinking "If they are so subtle then are they there or do they matter"? I think if you consider yourself an Audiophile then they should. If anyone is near Wash DC then send me a message and I can have you over to see if you can tell. I think the cable will be obvious but the dac thing is very hard to discern at first.


----------



## dallan

Those quantum theories would say that whether you believe that it effects the SQ or not would actually affect whether you did or not. That is to say that your thought or belief would add to the physical outcome. Thus even if it were a placebo the belief would change the actual outcome not just your perception of the outcome.

 On a more pragmatic standpoint i do believe i hear the difference and it started when i got the Zu recable for my HD650s. After that i noticed every upgrade to one extent or another. In a chain it is a combination of doing the best you can at each point to create the end result, hopefully transparent, true sounding music. I do have to admit though generally speaking cable has much less impact than components in my view.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those quantum theories would say that whether you believe that it effects the SQ or not would actually affect whether you did or not. That is to say that your thought or belief would add to the physical outcome. Thus even if it were a placebo the belief would change the actual outcome not just your perception of the outcome._

 

Indeed, I believe it would.

 Dave


----------



## olblueyez

I have watched the word Placebo being tossed around a lot and I just want to make sure everyone knows that I don't believe Placebo is a part of the equation. People spending money to hear things that are not there is a theory and its fine for anyone to think that but I don't.

CSROC
 Cable Inventory
 really doesn't matter


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have watched the word Placebo being tossed around a lot and I just want to make sure everyone knows that I don't believe Placebo is a part of the equation. People spending money to hear things that are not there is a theory and its fine for anyone to think that but I don't.

CSROC
 Cable Inventory
 really doesn't matter_

 

Personal beliefs, I believe if you hear it you hear it, and that is all that matters, not so much the root cause. Unfortunately for my paper I have to understand the root cause too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Dave


----------



## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have watched the word Placebo being tossed around a lot and I just want to make sure everyone knows that I don't believe Placebo is a part of the equation. People spending money to hear things that are not there is a theory and its fine for anyone to think that but I don't.

CSROC
 Cable Inventory
 really doesn't matter_

 

I have had my experience with expensive cables of many types. I know enough to make a sound judgment on the matter for most cases. It's quite obvious that you don't believe "placebo" is a part of the equation. It is proven in many double blind tests that people have been unable to identify the differences between cables that they claim are there. I can only suggest you try such a thing as well.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had my experience with expensive cables of many types. I know enough to make a sound judgment on the matter for most cases. It's quite obvious that you don't believe "placebo" is a part of the equation. It is proven in many double blind tests that people have been unable to identify the differences between cables that they claim are there. I can only suggest you try such a thing as well._

 

That fine, as long as we agree to disagree on that one.


----------



## screwglue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent the last year farting with cables and the last six months tube rolling and one thing I learned is quick A-B testing does nothing but add confusion and force a quick decision. When buying a new input tube (Makes the most difference in the sound signature) I would install the new tube and listen and then replace the old tube back into the amp. This did nothing but confuse me as I could hear a difference but I could not tell exactly what that difference was. Spending more time with each tube afforded me a much better understanding of what each different tube sounds like and what it has to offer as far as the sound signature. When I bought my Dac I could tell the difference between non-upsampling and 24/192 but I was unable to tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 until I had the Dac for about a month and listening to my favorite tracks.

 Here is a Monet painting I chose because it is complex.






 If I made some subtle changes, nothing big mind you, would hanging this painting on the wall in the living room for a month or two increase your chances of discovering the changes as apposed to doing an A-B comparison where I flashed pictures at you and asked you to pick out the altered picture? I submit to all the Blind testing people that they are right, blind A-B testing usually confuses people and makes it very hard to make an educated choice. Stereo equipment however, is something we live with and spend many many hours with and I think giving a piece of equipment a fair shot at pleasing you in the long run is so much more productive than dismissing said equipment based on quick decisions. I think this is why so many people do so much equipment swapping, "I bought the AKG 701's for the third time" is a common thing to read in the forums. Anyone can fool people by forcing a rash decision, there is no Science there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I offer these opinions in the hope that some of the nay-sayers might take the time to consider good cables as they had and continue to have a great impact on my listening experience. Thats all I can offer the people in this thread._

 

QUOTED FOR TRUTH


----------



## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That fine, as long as we agree to disagree on that one._

 

Based on your early responses in this thread I did not expect you to agree. I can only suggest you try it for yourself. Even if you don't, as long as you continue to enjoy the music then you really don't have to care. But as long as you and others are sharing your thoughts with other people there will always be the opposition, as it were. 

 Anyway, as I mentioned in the other thread, all that can be said has been said so I don't really expect to return to or be active in this thread.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Based on your early responses in this thread I did not expect you to agree. I can only suggest you try it for yourself. Even if you don't, as long as you continue to enjoy the music then you really don't have to care. But as long as you and others are sharing your thoughts with other people there will always be the opposition, as it were. 

 Anyway, as I mentioned in the other thread, all that can be said has been said so I don't really expect to return to or be active in this thread._

 

Please stay active if you like, I don't want you to leave on my account. I also am done as you put it. I'm going to be a spectator for the most part.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csroc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had my experience with expensive cables of many types. I know enough to make a sound judgment on the matter for most cases. It's quite obvious that you don't believe "placebo" is a part of the equation. It is proven in many double blind tests that people have been unable to identify the differences between cables that they claim are there. I can only suggest you try such a thing as well._

 

What amuses me is that people use DBT to make un-scientific conclusions. What a DBT shows is that _the people tested_ couldn't hear a difference between the _sound_ when _specific_ cables were swapped around. It doesn't, as a whole generalisation, mean that there is no difference between the effect on sound as from all cables as a result. Almost always, these DBT tests only compare speaker cables, which have far lower demands than do interconnects. I'm sure with a Stax rig and a serious DAC, just as those tests were set up to show failure, I'm sure I could set up a DBT that would prove the opposite. But it still only shows a result that can be used for equally limited conclusions.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What amuses me is that people use DBT to make un-scientific conclusions. What a DBT shows is that the people tested couldn't hear a difference between the sound when specific cables were swapped around. It doesn't, as a whole generalisation, mean that there is no difference between the effect on sound as from all cables as a result. _

 

Indeed, you can never rule out that two cables might be audibly different in some system with some listeners at some future date. 

 However if your purchase choice is informed by evidence of current and past blind listening tests then rationally you have to ask "how likely is it that this cable at $X + n is audibly different from this cable at $X ?" . To buy the cable at $X + n based on expectations of sonic differences where there is no credible evidence for audible difference is an act of faith.


  Quote:


 Almost always, these DBT tests only compare speaker cables, which have far lower demands than do interconnects. 
 

Er, a line level output cable carries a maximum of 2 to 2.5V, a speaker cable carries a good deal more. 

 V=IR. and P=IV. so I = V/R Thus P= V^2/R thus V^2=PR, 
 so V=sqrt(PR). 

 So for 10 watts into 8 ohms the rms voltage is sqrt(8 * 10) = ~ 8.94V, when the speaker is carrying say 100 W then the voltage = ~ 28V 


  Quote:


 I'm sure with a Stax rig and a serious DAC, just as those tests were set up to show failure, I'm sure I could set up a DBT that would prove the opposite. But it still only shows a result that can be used for equally limited conclusions. 
 

Then why not do it , with competent interconnects nobody has been able to show an audible difference in level matched blind testing, you could be the first. But this testing has been done loads of time by folks like David Carlstrom, John Dunlavy and Tom Nousaine (no slouches) and always with null result.


----------



## KevM2

Yes they do make a difference. I have 3 interconnects available for me to do A-B testing. One is some $30 Monster interconnects (copper). Another is the Stefan Audio Art Endorphin Interconnects (copper), and the final set is the Mapleshade Clearview Excalber Interconnects (silver). There is definitely a difference in sound between the different interconnects.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KevM2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes they do make a difference. I have 3 interconnects available for me to do A-B testing. One is some $30 Monster interconnects (copper). Another is the Stefan Audio Art Endorphin Interconnects (copper), and the final set is the Mapleshade Clearview Excalber Interconnects (silver). There is definitely a difference in sound between the different interconnects._

 

Another person who decided to find out for himself and speaks with experience. Nice post, thanks.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KevM2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes they do make a difference. I have 3 interconnects available for me to do A-B testing. One is some $30 Monster interconnects (copper). Another is the Stefan Audio Art Endorphin Interconnects (copper), and the final set is the Mapleshade Clearview Excalber Interconnects (silver). There is definitely a difference in sound between the different interconnects._

 

Would you be prepared to take part in a small experiment ?

 I suggest the following...

 Do listening (sighted) tests between your cables and for each describe the low , mid and high frequencies in simple terms i.e lots , a moderate amount and not much or flat, recessed, pronounced.

 Then record the same track from a CD player via each cable to your PC as a WAV file. Then simply load each resulting file into an editor such as Audacity and trim to the same length.

 Then compare pairs of files in the spectrum analyzer ?


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you be prepared to take part in a small experiment ?

 I suggest the following...

 Do listening (sighted) tests between your cables and for each describe the low , mid and high frequencies in simple terms i.e lots , a moderate amount and not much or flat, recessed, pronounced.

 Then record the same track from a CD player via each cable to your PC as a WAV file. Then simply load each resulting file into an editor such as Audacity and trim to the same length.

 Then compare pairs of files in the spectrum analyzer ?_

 


 Interesting idea...


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you be prepared to take part in a small experiment ?

 I suggest the following...

 Do listening (sighted) tests between your cables and for each describe the low , mid and high frequencies in simple terms i.e lots , a moderate amount and not much or flat, recessed, pronounced.

 Then record the same track from a CD player via each cable to your PC as a WAV file. Then simply load each resulting file into an editor such as Audacity and trim to the same length.

 Then compare pairs of files in the spectrum analyzer ?_

 

Nick, can you tell us about the cables you have comapred during your audiophile journey?


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting idea..._

 

I do this all the time with different CD players and so on, the measurable differences are always there but audible differences are much rarer. 

 I have just done this with three different cables. I recorded a 15 sec clip (telemann) , aligned the tracks to +/1 one sample and clipped to the exact length.

 Then I ran a spectrum analyser and exported the resullts to Excel, I calculated mins, maxes and differences between all pairs of cables. All cables showed the same FR pattern, none differed notably in the intensity level of any frequencies.

 Between 20 and 20K the maximum difference between any two cables (these differences were utterly consistent in their direction by the way) was.......drum roll
 .........0.079db.

 The average difference between cable A and cable B was 0.053db , between A and C was 0.057 and between B and C was 0.004 db.

 Thus the measurable differences were utterly insignificant. I will do a blind test , but there is no way I can hear such small differences.

 The cheapest cable was 1/20th of the cost of the most expensive. Technically the most expensive cable measured the worst of the three.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nick, can you tell us about the cables you have comapred during your audiophile journey?_

 

Various different Monster, different AR, different Monoprice (premium and bog standard) Tandy (radioshack) gold and bog standard, Recoton, some cables from eBay that I cannot remember. I have more AR than others but I have gone off them a bit as they are quite a tight fit. Many others that I just cannot remember I have been into audio since the 1970s.

 If what you want to know is the prices of cables I have owned then it varies from best guess ( I will use American terms) $0.77 to about $30.

 If you want to lend me your best cables I will happily test them out, but as I suggested you can do this quite trivially with Audacity...and you can even run your own blind tests afterwards if you feel so inclined.

 My experience with cables however is utterly irrelevant to the test I suggested, so I really do not know why you bring it up ?

 Unless to somehow suggest that my not using boutique cables alters the laws of physics in some way ?


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do this all the time with different CD players and so on, the measurable differences are always there but audible differences are much rarer. 

 I have just done this with three different cables. I recorded a 15 sec clip (telemann) , aligned the tracks to +/1 one sample and clipped to the exact length.

 Then I ran a spectrum analyser and exported the resullts to Excel, I calculated mins, maxes and differences between all pairs of cables. All cables showed the same FR pattern, none differed notably in the intensity level of any frequencies.

 Between 20 and 20K the maximum difference between any two cables (these differences were utterly consistent in their direction by the way) was.......drum roll
 .........0.079db.

 The average difference between cable A and cable B was 0.053db , between A and C was 0.057 and between B and C was 0.004 db.

 Thus the measurable differences were utterly insignificant. I will do a blind test , but there is no way I can hear such small differences.

 The cheapest cable was 1/20th of the cost of the most expensive. Technically the most expensive cable measured the worst of the three._

 


 Again, very interesting idea. I've done something much simpler myself. Here in Italy (at least in my town, although in the web shops too), the sennheiser is the most famous headphone manufacture. Because of that, before joining the head-fi i practically tried almost all famous/important models since they was easy to find, and many of my friends have them. So, when i joined head-fi and started seeing all the people talking about cables i was really interested. In the mean time, i was finishing my Electronic/Computer technician school and had some "basic" knowledge about components, current, cables and such. So i wanted to test if i can hear the difference and is the notice worth the relatively high cost. All the stuff i learned was telling me it was practically impossible thing to do, but non the less, i wanted to try.

 How to do it? Well, blind testing would be useless since i was expecting rather subtle difference only noticeable in long terms. But, based on my crazy logic, if i compare the worst cable i can find (then soldering it to HD650 stock plugs since they guy didn't needed the stock cable anymore) to a Cardas HD650 cable that my friend had for last two years (the one from headroom), i should notice at least something since the difference in price is 300 times in favor of Cardas. Well, i didn't notice anything then. Couple of weeks ago i tried it again. I've train my ears quite much in the mean time since i went from thinking C751 is the best earphone in existence especially for the price, to noticing that there's not enough detail, highs and previously incredibly good bass for an iem could actually be better and allot of other things. Along with that i got my first amp (x-can v8) that is actually better than the one my friend has (x-can v2 modified), i tried really hard this time, and spend couple of days testing with various music. Result: nothing.

 Now we all know everything is possible: I've read on many places on the net that 1db difference is not noticeable, yet i can notice it. Same thing with lossy against lossless, and i said on another thread i actually prefer standard encoding to VBR. So there might be some people who can actually benefit with better cabling and that's fine. I don't understand however, how some of them like that guy who put me on ignore list
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 thinks that if someone can't he's deaf. It's totally opposite; if someone can, it's a rarity, and an extreme one. I've tried and i can't. On the bright side, now i can spend more money on (for me) more useful stuff in this awesome hobby. Just my opinion based on my experience, nothing more.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Various different Monster, different AR, different Monoprice (premium and bog standard) Tandy (radioshack) gold and bog standard, Recoton, some cables from eBay that I cannot remember. I have more AR than others but I have gone off them a bit as they are quite a tight fit. Many others that I just cannot remember I have been into audio since the 1970s.

 If what you want to know is the prices of cables I have owned then it varies from best guess ( I will use American terms) $0.77 to about $30.

 If you want to lend me your best cables I will happily test them out, but as I suggested you can do this quite trivially with Audacity...and you can even run your own blind tests afterwards if you feel so inclined.

 My experience with cables however is utterly irrelevant to the test I suggested, so I really do not know why you bring it up ?

 Unless to somehow suggest that my not using boutique cables alters the laws of physics in some way ?_

 

Why bother to say cables dont make a difference if we are not talking about boutique cables? Comparing Rat-Shack to BestBuy(AR) tells you what exactly? That inexpensive cables all sound the same (bad)? Cheap stranded copper vs cheap stranded copper? Try cheap stranded copper against expensive silver, then maybe you can stop going on about DBT and open your eyes, sorry Nick couldnt resist after looking at your avatar. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Come to think of it Frank looks blind in my avatar!


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why bother to say cables dont make a difference if we are not talking about boutique cables? Comparing Rat-Shack to BestBuy(AR) tells you what exactly? That inexpensive cables all sound the same (bad)? Cheap stranded copper vs cheap stranded copper? Try cheap stranded copper against expensive silver, then maybe you can stop going on about DBT and open your eyes, sorry Nick couldnt resist after looking at your avatar. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Come to think of it Frank looks blind in my avatar!_

 

If you want to lend me one of your better cables I will happily test it against my cables, or how about this I will buy a silver cable (RCA Analog) that you suggest at up up to $100 but you agree to buy it from me when I have finished testing it if I choose not to keep it. 


 I will test it by making recordings through it and also recordings via my own low end cables, I will do a frequency analysis on all cables and publish the results and I will upload (fair use) segments of each recording unidentified for members to blind test . Sound fair ?


----------



## olblueyez

So what you are saying is, I need to trust you with my money and equipment for you to be open minded about the whole thing. I paid for mine and sold the cables I didnt like. Both cables I wasnt fond of were silver coated copper, didnt sound natural to me. Now my headphone cable and IC's are solid core copper and really sound great. If you cant do a little experimenting with cables then are you really an Audiophile? BTW, stores have return policies so there is no need to involve me, you can try them out at no risk to yourself or anyone else.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what you are saying is, I need to trust you with my money and equipment for you to be open minded about the whole thing._

 

I hope you are not (in a public forum and one actively frequented by several lawyers) suggesting that I am in any way not trustworthy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Meanwhile back on topic. You suggest that I invest a presumably large sum of money on the vague promise that it might make a difference. You do see how one might think that a poor bargain.

  Quote:


 I paid for mine and sold the cables I didnt like. Both cables I wasnt fond of were silver coated copper, didnt sound natural to me. Now my headphone cable and IC's are solid core copper and really sound great. If you cant do a little experimenting with cables then are you really an Audiophile? BTW, stores have return policies so there is no need to involve me, you can try them out at no risk to yourself or anyone else. 
 

I have never called myself an Audiophile. I am a music lover. I have an interest in audio kit and I am curious so experiment with stuff like measuring the differences between components, and playing about with different vintage CD players, I have 3 at the moment, but I do not call myself an audiophile. 

 I hesitate to buy a cable knowing that I may return it meaning that the seller cannot sell it as new. What are your cables by the way and where might one obtain them ?


----------



## olblueyez

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...5/#post5313585

 Why do you think Skylab wont write about amps he hasnt had a chance take home and spend time with?


----------



## Relinquished

Not much of a difference.But yes


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## olblueyez

Sorry Nick, that sounds terrible, I know your a decent fellow, I should have said im not willing to use this for a few weeks.


----------



## KevM2

As has been said before, some of these cable manufacturers have a 30 day return policy, so it's up to you to audition them and get your money back if you aren't pleased with them. If you ask nicely enough, they may just allow you to audition them without 'purchasing' them first. To be honest, I don't really have a desire to record music and run it through a spectrum analyzer or whatever elaborate process will convince people that I'm not fibbing, especially when there's an option to test with your own ears for basically the cost of shipping and a 'hold' on your funds if you don't like them.

 The difference in sound quality between interconnects is definitely noticeable to my ears. Will it be as mindblowing as jumping up to some expensive new amp? Probably not. Anyhow, the biggest difference in sound will come from going from one metal to another. Try silver if you have copper and vice versa. Copper is heavier sounding (more focus on bass), with everything having more weight. Silver is generally leaner and faster with more of a treble focus. 

 Now, I'm not here to win converts and to sway the unswayable and lead the flock into the land of interconnect bliss. I'm just posting impressions based upon my own experience. If you want to do a cheap test, although they are not interconnects, you can experience the difference of a cable's effect on sound. If you have an HD600 or HD650, order the other cable for your phones. For example, if you have HD600, order the 650 cables. If you can notice the difference in sound quality between the two relatively cheap cables, then that'll give you some hint of what cabling can do. If you can't, you might as well just not worry about it and just keep your money in your pocket.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KevM2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As has been said before, some of these cable manufacturers have a 30 day return policy, so it's up to you to audition them and get your money back if you aren't pleased with them. If you ask nicely enough, they may just allow you to audition them without 'purchasing' them first. To be honest, I don't really have a desire to record music and run it through a spectrum analyzer or whatever elaborate process will convince people that I'm not fibbing, especially when there's an option to test with your own ears for basically the cost of shipping and a 'hold' on your funds if you don't like them.

 The difference in sound quality between interconnects is definitely noticeable to my ears. Will it be as mindblowing as jumping up to some expensive new amp? Probably not. Anyhow, the biggest difference in sound will come from going from one metal to another. Try silver if you have copper and vice versa. Copper is heavier sounding (more focus on bass), with everything having more weight. Silver is generally leaner and faster with more of a treble focus. 

 Now, I'm not here to win converts and to sway the unswayable and lead the flock into the land of interconnect bliss. I'm just posting impressions based upon my own experience. If you want to do a cheap test, although they are not interconnects, you can experience the difference of a cable's effect on sound. If you have an HD600 or HD650, order the other cable for your phones. For example, if you have HD600, order the 650 cables. If you can notice the difference in sound quality between the two relatively cheap cables, then that'll give you some hint of what cabling can do. If you can't, you might as well just not worry about it and just keep your money in your pocket._

 

Good point, if you have a 200 dollar amp then please dont spend 200 on cables. Save that cable money for a new amp that will fully utillize a 200 dollar interconnect or headphone cable.


----------



## KevM2

The good thing about cables is that you can always reuse them on your next system. I would say they are good at adding some finishing touches on the sound. My cable combination (Equinox and Excaliber) was critical in eliminating the traces of that heavy, somewhat muddy sound often talked about with Sennheisers ("the veil").

 I often hear that people should upgrade the cables as a sort of last resort... only when they absolutely have nothing else to upgrade. My opinion slightly differs from that line of thinking. I'd say that it'd be wise for someone to experiment with a cable upgrade after he has purchased a decent source and amp as opposed to shuffling through amp after expensive amp. Key word here being decent. It's worthless to spend crazy amounts of money buying cables when you have a lackluster amp. However, once you get something decent, then cabling is something to look into. The reasoning behind this is that people need to really see what they have in an amp and a source before deciding to spend 600 to 1,000 dollars getting a new one. Proper cabling can bring out sound that you never even though was possible from your sound system.

 My cabling combination eliminated much, if not all of that sleepy, overly polite sound that the Sennheisers have a reputation for. It made music much more lively and engaging by getting rid of those recessed vocals as well as adding overall impact to the sound. Also, as stated before, whenever I do decide to get a new amp, I can always reuse the cables and make sure I'm hearing the most out of my system.

 Before interconnects, I'd recommend a headphone cable upgrade, especially for the Sennheiser 6XX series, since those make a more noticeable improvement than interconnects. Equinox is very noticeable. In terms of how much of an improvement cabling can make, it's all relative. For some, they will say it's major because the cable added whatever element they required, while others will say it's subtle. The only way to really know is by trying yourself. As said before, a lot of these cable sellers have 30 day return guarantees. Me posting graphs, bar charts and pie graphs won't do anything to tell you if a cable upgrade is worth the money, just as looking at graphs won't tell you if a certain headphone is for you. The ultimate decider should be your own two ears.


----------



## KevM2

This is a very good link 'reviewing' interconnects and power cables.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f22/jp...-review-13785/

 This is a guy who was also skeptical and felt 'a wire is a wire,' until he got his hands on some different cables.

 Here is also the forum for reviews of tons of cables 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f22/


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## Vandal

I'd say that cabling does affect sound. But the difference noticed will vary depending on the quality difference between the cables. For example I moved from a cheap RCA interconnect to a more decent OFC interconnect with neutrik connects and definitely noticed a difference - I had been using my A900 at the time on the LD MT amp and noticed that the highs weren't as unfocussed as they used to be straight off.

 But the difference in sound between top quality interconnects will be more subtle and probably also depend on ones ears.


----------



## Currawong

nick_charles: While I appreciate the idea of your experiment, frequency response differences wont indicate why some cables allow more detail in music to be revealed, and some less.

 Possibly what's needed is a measurement of frequency of frequency changes when different cables are plugged in, with the same music.

 Interestingly, a friend of mine is a manager in a well established and highly reputed hi-fi store. He regularly bets wealthy cynical customers $500 that there is a difference between cables. He has never lost in the years he's been there.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[Why do you think Skylab wont write about amps he hasnt had a chance take home and spend time with?_

 

What has that got to do with this ? . I have not once here said that cables cannot not make an audible difference. I have admitted a level of skepticism and have asked repeatedly for *good* evidence for this proposition. 

 Since you asked me about my cables and I was perfectly honest about them it is only fair that you return the compliment and tell me what cables you use.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nick_charles: While I appreciate the idea of your experiment, frequency response differences wont indicate why some cables allow more detail in music to be revealed, and some less._

 

Then how does one operationalize detail ? If it is not an accurate rendering of the frequencies and intensities in the recording I am not quite sure what else it could be ?


  Quote:


 Possibly what's needed is a measurement of frequency of frequency changes when different cables are plugged in, with the same music. 
 

Sorry I will have to ask you to explain this. A cable has a certain frequency response that is measurable and as far as I am aware under a given set of circumstances quite consistent. Unless there is bizarre impedance matching issues with the amp (such as some NAIMs) the behavior will be consistent.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry Nick, that sounds terrible, I know your a decent fellow, I should have said im not willing to use this for a few weeks.




_

 

You are not being very open minded here


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then how does one operationalize detail ? If it is not an accurate rendering of the frequencies and intensities in the recording I am not quite sure what else it could be ?




 Sorry I will have to ask you to explain this. A cable has a certain frequency response that is measurable and as far as I am aware under a given set of circumstances quite consistent. Unless there is bizarre impedance matching issues with the amp (such as some NAIMs) the behavior will be consistent._

 

Using your ears has always been the answer.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Using your ears has always been the answer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

But what does more or less detailed mean ?. It just seems like a vague statement that cannot be the same for any two persons.

 If you say cable A is more detailed than cable B but somebody else with equivalent hearing and experience says the opposite is true then where does that leave us ?

 PS what cables do you use ?


----------



## mark_h

I went from Cambridge Audio to Stereovox to Nordost each one different from its predecessor, with the move from the Cambridge Audio to the Stereovox being the most significant difference. The Stereovox was compellingly musical, the Nordost more revealing, things of a cognitive, philosophical nature not a scientific one. I am frugal and do not squander money on anything other than records, if I could not differentiate between the cables I would not have changed them. I actually miss the Stereovox. I would be willing to take a DBT between them all though I am skeptical of its validity. The experience of music defies scientific explanation beyond the basics, as does the experience of art.

 I need to add, that between the three the most expensive was not my preferred cable, I thought it was but made the wrong choice. There is something I miss from the Stereovox the Nordost doesn't have? But this is a realization that has occurred slowly, over several weeks and not a A/Bing thing, I can only describe it as the familiarity one develops of a music collection is changed and the subtle differences are chanced upon, not deliberately sought.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But what does more or less detailed mean ?. It just seems like a vague statement that cannot be the same for any two persons.

 If you say cable A is more detailed than cable B but somebody else with equivalent hearing and experience says the opposite is true then where does that leave us ?

 PS what cables do you use ?_

 

It means you can listen to "Sinatra Live at the Sands" and hear silverware tapping a plate in the background during the monologue. Not something you will hear with an iPod or a low end amp. A nicer cable can make the music much more resolute.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It means you can listen to "Sinatra Live at the Sands" and hear silverware tapping a plate in the background during the monologue. Not something you will hear with an iPod or a low end amp. A nicer cable can make the music much more resolute._

 

Okay, so it allows you to hear low level details that other cables might obscure through noise or attenuation.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then how does one operationalize detail ? If it is not an accurate rendering of the frequencies and intensities in the recording I am not quite sure what else it could be ?

 Sorry I will have to ask you to explain this. A cable has a certain frequency response that is measurable and as far as I am aware under a given set of circumstances quite consistent. Unless there is bizarre impedance matching issues with the amp (such as some NAIMs) the behavior will be consistent._

 

What I wrote before, in the very same post: Possibly what's needed is a measurement of frequency of frequency changes when different cables are plugged in, with the same music.

 What you wrote about previously was changes in frequency, ie: EQ changes. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But what does more or less detailed mean ?. It just seems like a vague statement that cannot be the same for any two persons.

 If you say cable A is more detailed than cable B but somebody else with equivalent hearing and experience says the opposite is true then where does that leave us ?

 PS what cables do you use ?_

 

I think we all know what detail is. A synonym is clarity. You've been dealing with audio for 30 years. I'm guessing either you want to play the devil's advocate or you think we're all wrong.

 One of the pieces of music I use for testing gear ends with a piano solo. I listen for the decay of the notes on the strings in the piano, and to how readily I can hear the subtle shifts of tone as the vibration in the strings dissipate and pass between each other.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, so it allows you to hear low level details that other cables might obscure through noise or attenuation._

 

Yep


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we all know what detail is. A synonym is clarity. You've been dealing with audio for 30 years. I'm guessing either you want to play the devil's advocate or you think we're all wrong._

 

As I grow (much) older I develop a respect for language. I have seen the word detail used as a synonym for bright. These days a graph or a set of numbers communicates much more unambiguously for me.

 Latterly I find Audiophile language too much of a linguistic moving feast...


----------



## powertoold

I'm sure many people in the past have made bold claims about cables. Unfortunately, none of them was able to pass an ABX test.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure many people in the past have made bold claims about cables. Unfortunately, none of them was able to pass an ABX test._

 

Tell us about your system and your cable experience.


----------



## powertoold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tell us about your system and your cable experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Would you mind explaining how experience matters in this debate? 

 The people who have made bold claims about cables have probably had more "experience" with cables than most audiophiles, yet I have never read about any that could consistently distinguish between cheap Radio Shack cables and more expensive ones.

 Even if I had experience with many different cables, I would not trust my aural perception. Audio is not the same as video, where you can simply pause a scene and compare the picture quality of two TVs. Your aural perception is very tricky, and if you believe everything you think you hear, your impressions may be wrong unless properly tested.

 Also, olblueyez, why do you think no one has been able to produce a significant result with regards to cable differences? Do you think you'd be able to?


----------



## olblueyez

See next post.


----------



## Maxvla

Careful guys, lets vote on the poll and keep the opinions in check. I don't believe in cables making a difference once you get a quality inexpensive cable, but I can also appreciate the opinions of those who discuss the differences in cables.

 The mods/admin made a rule about no DBT discussion mostly because of flame wars from cable disputes so lets just agree to disagree.


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## olblueyez

Did it ever occur to the disbeleivers that there is one type of person absent from these cable debates? Why is it that we never seem to hear from someone who says "I bought some expensive IC's and they sounded the same as my cheap cables"? If you guys are correct dont you think that you would hear something like this from *at least one person?* Think you can find a test to explain that? Must mean that everyone who buys a nice cable is affected by placebo.


----------



## KevM2

Why is it automatically placebo when we talk about cables, especially when one can do an AB test due to having several cables in front of him, but it's perfectly fine to trust one's perceptions when it comes to ABing amps? Obviously an amp can make a more noticeable difference, but the principle should hold the same across the board if it's going to be applied. How is it possible to trust your audio perception in the case of amps, op-amp mods and tubes, but not the case of cables?

 I bet if you did an experiment of testing people's abilities to tell tubes apart, a lot of people would get tubes wrong as well, but it's commonly accepted that tubes change sound.

 The bottom line is if you want to see if it makes a difference is to TRY IT yourself. As has been constantly said, there are companies who will refund your money if you feel you aren't getting value or even if you ask around, you might be able to audition a cable free of charge.

 Only after trying it yourself will you be able to truly say that they make a difference or not. if it doesn't, return the product and get your money back or return your audition cable and you can sit back knowing that that's one component of your system that youa re satisfied with.


----------



## MaZa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did it ever occur to the disbeleivers that there is one type of person absent from these cable debates? Why is it that we never seem to hear from someone who says "I bought some expensive IC's and they sounded the same as my cheap cables"? If you guys are correct dont you think that you would hear something like this from *at least one person?* Think you can find a test to explain that? Must mean that everyone who buys a nice cable is affected by placebo._

 


 The guy which you ignored was one...


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KevM2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is it automatically placebo when we talk about cables, especially when one can do an AB test due to having several cables in front of him, but it's perfectly fine to trust one's perceptions when it comes to ABing amps? Obviously an amp can make a more noticeable difference, but the principle should hold the same across the board if it's going to be applied. How is it possible to trust your audio perception in the case of amps, op-amp mods and tubes, but not the case of cables?

*I bet if you did an experiment of testing people's abilities to tell tubes apart, a lot of people would get tubes wrong as well, but it's commonly accepted that tubes change sound.*

 The bottom line is if you want to see if it makes a difference is to TRY IT yourself. As has been constantly said, there are companies who will refund your money if you feel you aren't getting value or even if you ask around, you might be able to audition a cable free of charge.

 Only after trying it yourself will you be able to truly say that they make a difference or not. if it doesn't, return the product and get your money back or return your audition cable and you can sit back knowing that that's one component of your system that youa re satisfied with._

 

Your right, people will have a hard time with short term testing like that. I have swapped tubes in that way and all it ever does is to confuse me. But the Tubes do change the sound. Tubes can change the sound 100 percent. I still think its automatic because cables changing SQ is hard for people to accept. Short term testing will only hinder your descision making process people. Sure you can tell the difference between a clock radio and a Linn stack but when your dealing with a multitude of good midline stuff it gets very very hard to distinguish one peice of equipment to another. The thing is, just because it took you a week to discover an improvement doesnt mean it is not an important discovery, all improvements are important when your spending thousands on headphone equipment.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaZa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The guy which you ignored was one..._

 

Again, very interesting idea. I've done something much simpler myself. Here in Italy (at least in my town, although in the web shops too), the sennheiser is the most famous headphone manufacture. Because of that, before joining the head-fi i practically tried almost all famous/important models since they was easy to find, and many of my friends have them. So, when i joined head-fi and started seeing all the people talking about cables i was really interested. In the mean time, i was finishing my Electronic/Computer technician school and had some "basic" knowledge about components, current, cables and such. So i wanted to test if i can hear the difference and is the notice worth the relatively high cost. All the stuff i learned was telling me it was practically impossible thing to do, but non the less, i wanted to try.

 How to do it? *Well, blind testing would be useless since i was expecting rather subtle difference only noticeable in long terms*. But, based on my crazy logic, if i compare the worst cable i can find *(then soldering it to HD650 stock plugs* since they guy didn't needed the stock cable anymore) *to a Cardas HD650 cable* Why solder used tips on a 650 Cardas cable??? that my friend had for last two years (the one from headroom), i should notice at least something since the difference in price is 300 times in favor of Cardas. *Well, i didn't notice anything* How Long did he listen? then. *Couple of weeks ago i tried it again.* Again, how long? I've train my ears quite much in the mean time since i went from thinking C751 is the best earphone in existence especially for the price, to noticing that there's not enough detail, highs and previously incredibly good bass for an iem could actually be better and allot of other things. Along with that i got my first amp (x-can v8) that is actually better than the one my friend has (x-can v2 modified), i tried really hard this time, and *spend couple of days testing* 2 days??? How long were the last two sessions? with various music. Result: nothing.

 Now we all know everything is possible: *I've read on many places on the net that 1db difference is not noticeable, yet i can notice it. Same thing with lossy against lossless, and i said on another thread i actually prefer standard encoding to VBR.* ???? He prefers Compressed??? So there might be some people who can actually benefit with better cabling and that's fine. I don't understand however, how some of them like that guy who put me on ignore list thinks that if someone can't he's deaf. *It's totally opposite; if someone can, it's a rarity,* I thought his ears were highly trained??? and an extreme one. I've tried and i can't. On the bright side, now i can spend more money on (for me) more useful stuff in this awesome hobby. Just my opinion based on my experience, nothing more.

 What was the source?

 Maza, are you sure this is the example you want to use? He states short term testing is useless then proceeds to use short term testing. With a Cardas 650 cable that apparently needed to have tips that were cut off a stock cable and soldered to the 650 cable that should have the proper tips already. WTH??????

 Your Troll radar needs to go in for service. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 __________________


----------



## KevM2

Oh yeah, I definitely believe that tubes can change sound. I was just curious why it's acceptable to deliver AB impressions for tubes and amps, but our hearing becomes impaired and a placebo effect takes place when it comes to cabling. 

 Honestly, I think a lot of people don't want to feel like they're missing out and saying you have to buy this $300 cable to get the most out of your system has people somewhat wary. But my message is, you don't HAVE to upgrade the cables if you don't want to. Feel free to upgrade your amp or source instead. My concern just comes from those who think we're lying when we say that cables can bring a relatively significant change to the sound.

 In regards to this topic, I must make one statement. Ultimately, degrees of change is relative. For example, if you sit back and listen and feel you want more of some specific element from your sound system, when you buy an upgrade that delivers that, you'll say the sound change is huge. Now someone who wasn't looking for that particular element in sound will say that the sound change wasn't that big or there really wasn't a difference at all. I'll call it the thirsty audio effect. Someone who hasn't drank any water in days will find a glass of water the best thing in the world. Someone who has more than enough to drink won't particularly be excited by a glass of water. Same with audio. If I want more refined bass out of the music, buying a cable that is more bass oriented than the one I am using will be a sizeable upgrade for me. Not so for someone else.

 With the HD600, EF1 amp and Equinox cable (copper based) I was looking for a somewhat leaner sound to my system and some more treble detail, since I had a pretty heavy sounding system. So, with the Excaliber interconnects, which is silver based, I found the addition of some speed and treble detail just what I was looking for. Therefore, I felt the improvement a sizeable and worthy one.

 Someone who isn't really thoroughly delving in into the details of the music as I am, or are searching for a different element of sound than I am won't feel that the upgrade was all that huge.

 olblueyez, I believe you have a Raptor, which I hear is a pretty fast and lean amp, so I can understand why you would go with copper instead of silver, since you'd probably want more body to your sound.

 When it comes down to it, the only real way to find out if something does or doesn't work as touted is experimentation.


----------



## olblueyez

Looks like the majority of people are hearing things that don't really exist.


----------



## NajoBB

Just to clarify:

 I didn't solder used tips on Cardas cable, i compare Cardas cable with cheap 1 EUR cable soldered to Sennheiser stock cable tips (so, it should be probably even worst than stock cable itself).

 First time i listened only about two hours.

 I meant short test was useless when comparing good with better. But in this case it was "incredibly bad" vs "statement product", so it was applicable.

 First time the source was X-Fi Pro Elite, and the second X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series and DCD-1500AE (not mine of course, needed just for the test).


----------



## MaZa

Quote:


 Maza, are you sure this is the example you want to use? He states short term testing is useless then proceeds to use short term testing. With a Cardas 650 cable that apparently needed to have tips that were cut off a stock cable and soldered to the 650 cable that should have the proper tips already. WTH??????

 Your Troll radar needs to go in for service. 
 

Hmmm... Yeah, you're right, it isnt best example, it was just first one that came into my mind in haste. But now that NajoBB clarified couple of things it is somewhat valid comparison.



 ...troll radar?


----------



## qusp

I think its not noted enough that the people that could be bothered doing testing and looking for 'answers' are usually people that are already predisposed to not hearing a difference. they are already clearly skeptical and by their own language the placebo would come into play and cause them NOT to hear a difference


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify:

 I didn't solder used tips on Cardas cable, i compare Cardas cable with cheap 1 EUR cable soldered to Sennheiser stock cable tips (so, it should be probably even worst than stock cable itself).

 First time i listened only about two hours.

 I meant short test was useless when comparing good with better. But in this case it was "incredibly bad" vs "statement product", so it was applicable.

 First time the source was X-Fi Pro Elite, and the second X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series and DCD-1500AE (not mine of course, needed just for the test)._

 

IC's used?

 Why not just use the 650 cable, its not a bad OEM cable, why butcher it, and add junky cable? Sorry we got off on thr wrong foot but your story is late and full of holes. Of the three sit downs 2 hours was the longest and part of that time was spent using a sound card that cost less than a Cardas headphone cable? You do realize that your story indicates you never used a decent IC with your testing and would be a giant gap in your audio chain? Original question: Do Interconnects Impact the SQ of an Audio Chain?


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IC's used?

 Why not just use the 650 cable, its not a bad OEM cable, why butcher it, and add junky cable?_

 


 Cardas headphone upgrade cable from Headroom (the older, blue one)

 Because, as i said earlier, this would made the test much easier. In other words, if blind testing is impossible between good and better i wanted to try very bad vs very good.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cardas headphone upgrade cable from Headroom (the older, blue one)

 Because, as i said earlier, this would made the test much easier. In other words, if blind testing is impossible between good and better i wanted to try very bad vs very good._

 

IC your point.


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry we got off on thr wrong foot but your story is late and full of holes. Of the three sit downs 2 hours was the longest and part of that time was spent using a sound card that cost less than a Cardas headphone cable? You do realize that your story indicates you never used a decent IC with your testing and would be a giant gap in your audio chain?_

 


 I'm aware that my English is not the best out there but believe me, it wasn't intentionally confusing. I had two sittings: first time about two hours, and second a couple of days.


----------



## MaZa

nvm


----------



## powertoold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think its not noted enough that the people that could be bothered doing testing and looking for 'answers' are usually people that are already predisposed to not hearing a difference. they are already clearly skeptical and by their own language the placebo would come into play and cause them NOT to hear a difference_

 

Please think about what you're saying, lol!


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please think about what you're saying, lol!_

 

actually I think thats perfectly acceptable and I did think it through; I wouldnt actually seriously say that; but thats the sort of crap us 'cable believers' have to put up with all the time. this was exactly the point I was trying to make; you replied to me that my statement sound silly to you; whereas apparently any difference we here is a placebo caused by wanting to believe we havent wasted our money; why doesnt it cut both ways?? the same variables are in place


----------



## olblueyez

Im still waiting for someone with valid experience to chime in and say "Cables made no difference in SQ". Of 88 people who voted not one has used good cables and says they dont make a difference.


----------



## NajoBB

Just of curiosity, i would like to see someone with some valid proof that they do (make the difference).


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just of curiosity, i would like to see someone with some valid proof that they do (make the difference)._

 

Do you have the expression "don't hold your breath" in Italy ?

 What I really want to know is what cables olblueyez uses or why he steadfastly refuses to vouchsafe this information despite insisting I describe my cable history, which I happily did...

 I intend to buy some agreeed-upon better than stock cables and test them against my own, If I can do this for $100 that is...if I can get more than one that would be interesting...


----------



## NajoBB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have the expression "don't hold your breath" in Italy ?

 What I really want to know is what cables olblueyez uses or why he steadfastly refuses to vouchsafe this information despite insisting I describe my cable history, which I happily did...

 I intend to buy some agreeed-upon better than stock cables and test them against my own, If I can do this for $100 that is...if I can get more than one that would be interesting..._

 


 Yeah, there is some similar expression. 
 I subscribed to your test thread and will be waiting for the probably interesting results. Did you find something interesting for a comparison yet?

 BTW: forgot to mention but all my years of studding have thought me that if a cable make a sonic difference it can be only in volume (depending of resistance, the worst wouldn't play as loud as good ones, but it has to be pretty bad). However i tried to notice difference in details and sound signature, but nothing for now. So if I'm right, you may find difference but it should be only in volume. I'm not sure, we shall see.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NajoBB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, there is some similar expression. 
 I subscribed to your test thread and will be waiting for the probably interesting results. Did you find something interesting for a comparison yet?_

 

So far no solid suggestions someone mentioned Audioquest Jade ($30) but that does not appear to be a current model...and it has to have a reccomendation from someone who has compared it against a stock cable.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far no solid suggestions someone mentioned Audioquest Jade ($30) but that does not appear to be a current model...and it has to have a reccomendation from someone who has compared it against a stock cable._

 

Choose the best Audioquest cable you can afford and then compare to the cheapest Radio-shack cable they sell. I have the Audioquest King Cobra, love them. I usually recommend copper as copper sounds natural, silver doesn't sound so good to me. BTW, if price is an issue then how bout a coax copper model from BlueJeansCables. People claim they are nice and the prices are very reasonable. Whatever it is I would make sure it is shielded because if it isn't then its likely to pick up some noise from neighboring components. Even if you donr beleive in diferent cable types then surely you do beleive EMI and RF can damage a signal, right?


----------



## aimlink

An interesting thread. 

 I'm relatively new to this discussion board and also relatively new to head-fi'ing.

 My music collection was originally made up mp3's - 256Kbit and some with even lower bit rates. I was happy with this. I really couldn't hear the difference between lossless and compressed versions with the equipment I used, i.e., my car stereo, rather cheap headphones, and my computer connected to a BOSE wave radio as well as external computer speakers (not cheap really - $350 pair).

 Since discovering the world of headphones and that I could listen without disturbing my wife and kids, I decided to upgrade my listening.

 I first bought a pair of Sony MDR 7506. They sounded great. A convincing start.

 After a month or so, I then moved to the Sennheiser HD 595 and also felt it deserved a dedicated headphone amp. I settled with a Firestone Fubar III with external Power Supply Unit. For the first time folks, I could easily hear the difference between 256 Kbit/sec and lossless formats. For some recordings, it would be subtle but discernible. For others, it would be quite striking. I found it most marked with music featuring specialist vocalists, for example, Barbra Streisand or Celine Dione. My feeling when I heard this was, 'I thought I'd never really hear this difference, but golly gee, this is what the fuss is about.' I could also easily tell when a recording was very good as opposed to another recording being genuinely bad.

 I then upgraded to the Sennheiser HD 650. This has been the most profound upgrade for me so far. I was astonished!!! The first thing I did when I first heard the HD 650's was to disable my iTunes equalizer. The HD 650's now sounded right. For the FIRST time, to my listening ear, the iTunes equalizer distorted the sound (something I kept hearing and could never appreciate). This was an immediate impression for me and the decision to disable the equalizer took a single A/B test. That one had me shaking my head with disbelief.

 I then upgraded the amp and DAC to a FireStone SpitFire and HeadPhone MicroAmp - again, gains in sound clarity, sound separation and staging.

 Why all the build up? ---- Equipment quality allows you to hear things that lesser equipment will not allow. Plain and simple. This is why experience helps and why I greatly respect experience rather than talking out of one's you know where.

 Now, for the cabling. I decided to upgrade to the Cardas Cable. To be frank, I was disappointed. There was a difference, but way too subtle for the investment. I was also not sure that it actually improved my listening. I suspiciously eyed the Grado 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor that I had to be using with the cable. The adaptor had a short, 6", length of cable. I was suspicious that the adaptor could be affecting the sound.

 I reached for the Sennheiser adaptor which is identical in configuration and switched them around. My jaw dropped... well I'll be damned. It did make a difference. The Grado gave more base, boomy in nature, and more colour to the mids. I didn't really like the effect. I preferred the sound over the stock adaptor provided by Sennheiser. I now knew that the adaptor was making a difference. I then obtained the Cardas adaptor and I like it more than the other two. I doubt that I'm being biased. I'm a skeptic and experimenter. I have no desire to be hearing a difference and would have been willing to go the route of getting an amp with a 1/4" socket. 

 So my experience has shown me that equipment matters where hearing differences are concerned.

 Additionally, training your ears is very important. Blind individuals hear better than those who aren't. If they can't see, their other senses are more heavily used, i.e., touch, smell and hearing. Their other senses become more developed with increased acuity and discriminatory ability. Audiophiles, over time and with effort, will increase their ability to discriminate between sounds.

 Finally, in my experience, more than subtle differences with changes of equipment and cabling are heavily dependent on the recording type, quality, sound volume etc. This is why differences are not fully appreciated through simple A/B tests, but through prolonged listening. When you initially hear a difference, that's only the start of the overall assessment of just how different the sound is and whether or not it's in a positive or negative direction where your sound preference is concerned.

 Cables can never have a neutral influence. I have no doubts now that it's audible to most human ears with training one's hearing and investing in equipment that's up to showing up the difference. It's therefore not at all surprising that those who are willing to invest the money to seriously upgrade their equipment, will in turn, invest the time and attention to seriously listen to the sound coming from their precious equipment. This very significant, but worthwhile investment will not only make them able to discern differences as a result of the sheer quality of the equipment at their disposal, but also, their improved ability to hear discriminately.

 Without actually taking a small trip down that road, I'd never have been personally convinced. I was hoping there wouldn't be a difference since there would be no justification for spending thousands on equipment, but unfortunately it does.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An interesting thread. 

 I'm relatively new to this discussion board and also relatively new to head-fi'ing.

 My music collection was originally made up mp3's - 256Kbit and some with even lower bit rates. I was happy with this. I really couldn't hear the difference between lossless and compressed versions with the equipment I used, i.e., my car stereo, rather cheap headphones, and my computer connected to a BOSE wave radio as well as external computer speakers (not cheap really - $350 pair).

 Since discovering the world of headphones and that I could listen without disturbing my wife and kids, I decided to upgrade my listening.

 I first bought a pair of Sony MDR 7506. They sounded great. A convincing start.

 After a month or so, I then moved to the Sennheiser HD 595 and also felt it deserved a dedicated headphone amp. I settled with a Firestone Fubar III with external Power Supply Unit. For the first time folks, I could easily hear the difference between 256 Kbit/sec and lossless formats. For some recordings, it would be subtle but discernible. For others, it would be quite striking. I found it most marked with music featuring specialist vocalists, for example, Barbra Streisand or Celine Dione. My feeling when I heard this was, 'I thought I'd never really hear this difference, but golly gee, this is what the fuss is about.' I could also easily tell when a recording was very good as opposed to another recording being genuinely bad.

 I then upgraded to the Sennheiser HD 650. This has been the most profound upgrade for me so far. I was astonished!!! The first thing I did when I first heard the HD 650's was to disable my iTunes equalizer. The HD 650's now sounded right. For the FIRST time, to my listening ear, the iTunes equalizer distorted the sound (something I kept hearing and could never appreciate). This was an immediate impression for me and the decision to disable the equalizer took a single A/B test. That one had me shaking my head with disbelief.

 I then upgraded the amp and DAC to a FireStone SpitFire and HeadPhone MicroAmp - again, gains in sound clarity, sound separation and staging.

 Why all the build up? ---- Equipment quality allows you to hear things that lesser equipment will not allow. Plain and simple. This is why experience helps and why I greatly respect experience rather than talking out of one's you know where.

 Now, for the cabling. I decided to upgrade to the Cardas Cable. To be frank, I was disappointed. There was a difference, but way too subtle for the investment. I was also not sure that it actually improved my listening. I suspiciously eyed the Grado 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor that I had to be using with the cable. The adaptor had a short, 6", length of cable. I was suspicious that the adaptor could be affecting the sound.

 I reached for the Sennheiser adaptor which is identical in configuration and switched them around. My jaw dropped... well I'll be damned. It did make a difference. The Grado gave more base, boomy in nature, and more colour to the mids. I didn't really like the effect. I preferred the sound over the stock adaptor provided by Sennheiser. I now knew that the adaptor was making a difference. I then obtained the Cardas adaptor and I like it more than the other two. I doubt that I'm being biased. I'm a skeptic and experimenter. I have no desire to be hearing a difference and would have been willing to go the route of getting an amp with a 1/4" socket. 

 So my experience has shown me that equipment matters where hearing differences are concerned.

 Additionally, training your ears is very important. Blind individuals hear better than those who aren't. If they can't see, their other senses are more heavily used, i.e., touch, smell and hearing. Their other senses become more developed with increased acuity and discriminatory ability. Audiophiles, over time and with effort, will increase their ability to discriminate between sounds.

 Finally, in my experience, more than subtle differences with changes of equipment and cabling are heavily dependent on the recording type, quality, sound volume etc. This is why differences are not fully appreciated through simple A/B tests, but through prolonged listening. When you initially hear a difference, that's only the start of the overall assessment of just how different the sound is and whether or not it's in a positive or negative direction where your sound preference is concerned.

 Cables can never have a neutral influence. I have no doubts now that it's audible to most human ears with training one's hearing and investing in equipment that's up to showing up the difference. *It's therefore not at all surprising that those who are willing to invest the money to seriously upgrade their equipment, will in turn, invest* the time and attention to seriously listen to the sound coming from their precious equipment. This very significant, but worthwhile investment will not only make them able to discern differences as a result of the sheer quality of the equipment at their disposal, but also, their improved ability to hear discriminately.

 Without actually taking a small trip down that road, I'd never have been personally convinced. I was hoping there wouldn't be a difference since there would be no justification for spending thousands on equipment, but unfortunately it does._

 

Their own time to tell other people of this great discovery. Its kinda sad really, buying amps and headphones over and over when all you need is to roll some tubes and experiment with cables.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Choose the best Audioquest cable you can afford and then compare to the cheapest Radio-shack cable they sell. I have the Audioquest King Cobra, love them. I usually recommend copper as copper sounds natural, silver doesn't sound so good to me. BTW, if price is an issue then how bout a coax copper model from BlueJeansCables. People claim they are nice and the prices are very reasonable. Whatever it is I would make sure it is shielded because if it isn't then its likely to pick up some noise from neighboring components. Even if you donr beleive in diferent cable types then surely you do beleive EMI and RF can damage a signal, right?_

 

I have ordered a pair of Sidewinder and a pair of G-Snake. Plus a pair of BJC cable , all 1m. It may be some time before I report back on this.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have ordered a pair of Sidewinder and a pair of G-Snake. Plus a pair of BJC cable , all 1m. It may be some time before I report back on this._

 

It should take some time, if it doesnt then something is screwy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Should I send you these are do you have a set?





 Notice some of the cables you ordered are directional, the model I have has a separate drain wire but they must have used a different approach on the G-snake and Sidewinder. I dont think the BJC is directional, just a good amount of shielding.

*"*The conductor under the shield does double duty as a low distortion audio connection, and as the drain wire connecting the shield to ground*"*.

 Im pumped up, cant wait to see what you think.


----------



## olblueyez

I have been skeptical about power cords, after all my preaching it makes me wonder.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Their own time to tell other people of this great discovery. Its kinda sad really, buying amps and headphones over and over when all you need is to roll some tubes and experiment with cables. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

IMO, this only seems to make sense once your equipment goes beyond a certain minimum standard or determined by your budget, whichever one comes first. At that point, a cable change can lead to just as much difference as changing the amp. Each headphone has its characteristic signature, and while a cable change may adjust the sound, a headphone change is more likely to produce a marked difference in sound character.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMO, this only seems to make sense once your equipment goes beyond a certain minimum standard or determined by your budget, whichever one comes first. At that point, a cable change can lead to just as much difference as changing the amp. Each headphone has its characteristic signature, and while a cable change may adjust the sound, a headphone change is more likely to produce a marked difference in sound character._

 

I think this is the crux of the issue: Speakers (and headphones) have obvious and easily measurable sonic characteristics. Cables, while measurably electrically different, have sonic characteristics that are difficult to measure in a way that meaningfully relates to what we hear.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this is the crux of the issue: Speakers (and headphones) have obvious and easily measurable sonic characteristics. Cables, while measurably electrically different, have sonic characteristics that are difficult to measure in a way that meaningfully relates to what we hear._

 

It's not all the time that you switch cables that you'll find it easy to discern a difference. This may be because of the cable design and materials used for conduction, not being much different from the one you were previously used; it could be that your equipment isn't sensitive enough to show up the difference; it could be that the type of music, the format, quality of recording, or a combination of these, do not allow you to hear it; and finally, if your ears have been trained and are up to discerning it.

 IOW's, it's a hit and miss, and it takes effort, as well as direct experience to appreciate this. If you're skeptic, or worse, cannot afford to make the effort for whatever reason (no time... no money... no time or money), it's better to just deny that they do make a difference that's discernible to human hearing in a meaningful way.

 I've read posts on these boards of claims that fancy dedicated DACs and Amps don't make a difference and that it's the ego playing tricks on the listener. The cable issue is identical but takes it to another level that's outrageous to conceive for some, but real for others. I've been on both sides and I now know.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It should take some time, if it doesnt then something is screwy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Should I send you these are do you have a set?



_

 

No thanks I have plenty of those.


  Quote:


 Notice some of the cables you ordered are directional 
 

Indeed, I aim to test this directionality. I am curious as to how an AC carrying cable can work properly if it is directional ?, but I will reserve judgment for now.

  Quote:


 Im pumped up, cant wait to see what you think. 
 

This will be a while, but I will start a new thread.

 Finally I am about to receive a credit card refund which will give me approximately $35 which could be used for one last cable, would a Canare LV-61S cable be better than a stock cable ?


----------



## aimlink

Here's a nice pdf provided by a Cardas cables distributor.

 It's interesting to read.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No thanks I have plenty of those.




 Indeed, I aim to test this directionality. I am curious as to how an AC carrying cable can work properly if it is directional ?, but I will reserve judgment for now.



 This will be a while, but I will start a new thread.

 Finally I am about to receive a credit card refund which will give me approximately $35 which could be used for one last cable, would a Canare LV-61S cable be better than a stock cable ?_

 

Its designed to draw RF and EMI away from your amp, the king cobra has a separate drain wire connected to only one end, that end goes on the source.

 As for cable choices I think you have enough, I would have combined my money for a single higher end cable but what you have should work nicer than the Rat-Shack cable pictured. I was looking at the cables you picked out and apparently people who bought them from Amazon and wrote in to review the cables seemed to like them and hear a difference.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for cable choices I think you have enough, I would have combined my money for a single higher end cable but what you have should work nicer than the Rat-Shack cable pictured. I was looking at the cables you picked out and apparently people who bought them from Amazon and wrote in to review the cables seemed to like them and hear a difference._

 

I considered some higher end Audoquests I found on eBay, but I know that there are a lot of Audioquest knock-offs on eBay and the prices were so much lower than retail that I did not want to risk it.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I considered some higher end Audoquests I found on eBay, but I know that there are a lot of Audioquest knock-offs on eBay and the prices were so much lower than retail that I did not want to risk it._

 

Its ok, you have shielded solid core copper cables as apposed to the non shielded stranded copper Rat-shack, I think that should work.


----------



## powertoold

People claiming to be skeptics and experimenters should understand that differences will be "heard" even when they don't exist. This fact invalidates all your conclusions unless you were properly tested, and with cables, there's no way to do the test on yourself.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People claiming to be skeptics and experimenters should understand that differences will be "heard" even when they don't exist. This fact invalidates all your conclusions unless you were properly tested, and with cables, there's no way to do the test on yourself._

 

Differences will be heard when they don't exist.

 Differences will also not be heard when they do exist. 

 What does that have to with anything when the question being asked from the very beginning, and the point being made by myself and others is that:

 Differences in SQ, secondary to cable changes will often BE HEARD when they DO EXIST. Instances where there's a difference heard that's not there, do not take away anything from this basic point.

 So the answer is, yes, cables can make a discernible difference to sound that's significant enough to influence a serious listener to pay attention to cabling when tuning his/her system's sound.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Differences will be heard when they don't exist.

 Differences will also not be heard when they do exist. 

 What does that have to with anything when the question being asked from the very beginning, and the point being made by myself and others is that:

 Differences in SQ, secondary to cable changes will often BE HEARD when they DO EXIST. Instances where there's a difference heard that's not there, do not take away anything from this basic point.

 So the answer is, yes, cables can make a discernible difference to sound that's significant enough to influence a serious listener to pay attention to cabling when tuning his/her system's sound._

 


 or, perception can equal reality.

 or, perception is reality.


----------



## myinitialsaredac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_or, perception can equal reality.

 or, perception is reality._

 

"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream"


 Dave


----------



## powertoold

Man tries cable 1 - perceives a positive difference. 

 Man concludes cables make difference.

 Man tries cable 2 - perceives a negative difference.

 Man concludes cable 2 is worse than cable 1.

 Later, man tries cable 2 again - perceives a positive difference.

 Man concludes cable burn-in exists.

 Man goes on Head-Fi to write about his conclusions.

 Here we are.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_or, perception can equal reality.

 or, perception is reality._

 

Perception has to do with how we perceive what is out there.

 The question is, can our sense of hearing perceive a change in sound quality out there secondary to a cable change. 

 YES, it can.

 No need to be obtuse and "smart". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I don't hear anyone putting a headphone to someone's head, switching on the music and then saying, 'if you hear something then it's just perception and it's not real'. The fact is that something is happening and we perceive it as sound. 

 This need to talk about perception is implying that this difference in sound quality produced by cables has no real measurable component and that it's purely imaginary and a mind game.


----------



## powertoold

Quote:


 purely imaginary and a mind game 
 

I don't think it's purely imaginary, but it _is_ a mind game. How you perceive differences not only depends on your focus but also how much attention you give to your focus. Comparing audio equipment is tricky because it's difficult to replicate your exact focus and attention. If you deviate your focus just a little, you may hear more "detail" or "transparency." Further, your level of attention may depend on your mood, time of day, position, etc. As a test, turn off the lights and listen to your headphones lying flat on the floor. I'll bet that it'll sound different than with the lights on and in the seated position.

 To make matters even worse, people often compare audio equipment without regard to volume matching, so that leaves too many variables unconsidered.


----------



## olblueyez

Any people with real experience step up to the plate and say something equivilent to "I compared a 5 dollar cable to a 200 dollar cable and they sounded the same" yet? Even for those of you who dont beleive then surely you can understand the difference between a shielded cable and a non shielded cable, right? If you can say "I understand why they use shielding in cables", then you CANNOT say cables do not affect sound quality. Let me know when someone with proper experience steps up and says they change nothing. Isnt it funny how the very people who can hear the difference between 2 different amps or two different sets of headphones are considered normal but when we speak of cables then its all in the mind. Its also funny how these statements always come from people who never bothered to try a 200 dollar cable against a 5 dollar cable. Just for the record, *"What I hear is not my mind playing tricks on me"*, anyone saying other wise is admitting to the beleif that *"they know me better than I know myself"*.


----------



## powertoold

If you can hear a difference, great! 

 But you'd be kidding yourself if you don't think aural perception is tricky. No one can reliably remember the musical details he hears, so he'd be setting himself up to be deceived by his own perception.

 You also have to consider the fact that there are too many variables to consider if you're doing your own testing. 

 If having considered all these things you're still sure there are differences, then that's great! Your hobby just expanded to cables.


----------



## olblueyez

What color were Peter Brady's pants in episode 8 in the third season? Better yet, how many colors are in the Monet painting? I dont think I should have to explain this but I guess I do. Just because you cant remember something doesnt mean you dont hear it. Explain in scientific terms why hearing perception is more "tricky" than sight or smell. The simple fact is it isnt any more tricky than the other senses, its the best thing a cable disbeleiver can come up with, isnt that what it really is? Saying anything no matter how logical or un logical it is because the whole point is to be right at the expense of common sense and logical thought? I dont think I am the one kidding myself. Why not go to a camera fourm and tell everyone that lenses dont matter and that it is a simple matter of perception (mind playing games on them) when they see a difference between different lenses.


----------



## Lamenthe

I'd say it's a tricky question. If we're talking headphone cables, I personally believe that they do affect SQ to some degree. 

 However something like a digital interconnect, (e.g. USB cables) unless it's very poorly made, won't affect anything over short distances. Only over long distances there can be degradation.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lamenthe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say it's a tricky question. If we're talking headphone cables, I personally believe that they do affect SQ to some degree. 

 However something like a digital interconnect, (e.g. USB cables) unless it's very poorly made, won't affect anything over short distances. Only over long distances there can be degradation._

 

I don't see the trickiness of the question and you just answered it. Cables do affect SQ. If there is no discernible difference between two particular cables, how does this then negate the validity of the statement that "interconnect cables can affect SQ in a humanly discernible way?"


----------



## Lamenthe

Well I guess "tricky" is a misnomer. Really the answer would be "it depends." So if we're talking the big picture (the entirety of the audio chain), your assessment of my statement is correct. I just wanted to be more specific about my answer than just a yes or no considering this is for a research paper.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lamenthe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I guess "tricky" is a misnomer. Really the answer would be "it depends." So if we're talking the big picture (the entirety of the audio chain), your assessment of my statement is correct. I just wanted to be more specific about my answer than just a yes or no considering this is for a research paper._

 

I have to thank "oblueyez" for the link he provided to HDTracks. It again opened a new frontier of possibilities I had not really heard before. For the first time I was listening to SACD quality music. One ~6 min track in flac format is about 120MB and the encoding is in excess of 3000Kb/sec. The music uses all the potential afforded. The detail and dynamic range are astonishing to my inexperienced ears using my current setup. I can't wait to see what these quality recordings sound like when I get my HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp and DAC later this week.

 It's with this sort of recording and equipment that you easily appreciate the changes that cables will offer. So many commercial recordings sound pretty much the same once you play them with equipment beyond a minimum standard. Increasing the standard does nothing significant. More and more, I'm beginning to realize the obvious factor of equipment and recording quality when listening for minor differences, and that what may sound minor or insignificant with one setup and recording combo, could easily sound very significant with another setup and recording combo.

 Olblueyez, thanks for that tip, although I couldn't find the free recordings you mentioned, so I bought some music. I bought the 'Ultimate Demonstration CD vol.2". It's actually a CD for audiophiles, with each track being given a writeup on its strengths, what you should listen for, and how it will test the strength of your equipment and ears. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fantastic!


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to thank "oblueyez" for the link he provided to HDTracks. It again opened a new frontier of possibilities I had not really heard before. For the first time I was listening to SACD quality music. One ~6 min track in flac format is about 120MB and the encoding is in excess of 3000Kb/sec. The music uses all the potential afforded. The detail and dynamic range are astonishing to my inexperienced ears using my current setup. I can't wait to see what these quality recordings sound like when I get my HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp and DAC later this week.

 It's with this sort of recording and equipment that you easily appreciate the changes that cables will offer. So many commercial recordings sound pretty much the same once you play them with equipment beyond a minimum standard. Increasing the standard does nothing significant. More and more, I'm beginning to realize the obvious factor of equipment and recording quality when listening for minor differences, and that what may sound minor or insignificant with one setup and recording combo, could easily sound very significant with another setup and recording combo.

 Olblueyez, thanks for that tip, although I couldn't find the free recordings you mentioned, so I bought some music. I bought the 'Ultimate Demonstration CD vol.2". It's actually a CD for audiophiles, with each track being given a writeup on its strengths, what you should listen for, and how it will test the strength of your equipment and ears. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fantastic! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry you had trouble. I E-mailed the link to my Dad yesterday and he was able to get to the free stuff so I hope it is still working. Did you register and get an E-mail from them?

 "To download Hot Tones in High-Definition now, go to HDtracks.com and register your information. You'll receive a full set of instructions detailing how to immediately download your free Hot Tones in High-Definition. You'll also receive a PDF file containing the album cover art and liner notes".

 Kinda makes you pissed that all your CD's are not recorded like that.


----------



## mark_h

Woah this thread got really heavy!! Philosophy and all that!


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mark_h* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Woah this thread got really heavy!! Philosophy and all that!_

 

Funny huh.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Not even musicians ? No one at all ?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No one can reliably remember the musical details he hears, so he'd be setting himself up to be deceived by his own perception._


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


 No one can reliably remember the musical details he hears, so he'd be setting himself up to be deceived by his own perception 
 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not even musicians ? No one at all ?_

 

You have to remember that there are two kinds of remembering. There is recognition and recall. 

 Recall would be Mozart playing back a tune perfectly after one hearing. Recognition would be identifying the opening bars of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D BWV565, that my wife insists on calling "The Dracula music". 

 Also one can recognize the difference between Ton Koopman's noodling and a different organist. Recall would be replicating the two performances.

 However, the differences between two organists playing the same piece on different organs are several orders of magnitude bigger than the differences between two cables, unless at least one cable is seriously pathological.

 Therefore the question is not how good is the general acoustic recognition memory of musicians , pretty good probably, but are they significantly better at recognizing miniscule differences of level in the spectra rather than fundamental changes in the music, and after a significant delay. This is rather harder than telling the difference between a sharp , a natural and a flat I woud posit.


----------



## olblueyez

Interconnects, loudspeaker cables and mains leads. Do they affect sound quality and why? Suggestions for building your own and 'burning' them in.

 Hi-fi cabling is one of the most controversial topics in hi-fi circles, although much less so now than a few years ago. 
 At one time, we all connected our hi-fi together with the skinny cables supplied with the equipment and were quite happy with the bell-wire which joined our 'speakers to our amplifier. Then somebody, somewhere (I wonder who it was) started trying different types of cables and suggested that they could affect the sound of a hi-fi. 
 At first, many people ridiculed this suggestion including many who were qualified electronics engineers. Perhaps what annoyed the doubters most, was the plethora of over-priced cables which suddenly appeared on the market and sold with all sorts of ridiculous claims. However, as time passed and more people discovered that the type of cable does affect sound quality, the market for exotic interconnects and 'speaker cables grew and the arguments diminished. 
 The arguments have resurfaced recently as it has been suggested that apart from interconnects and 'speaker cable, the type of cable connecting equipment to the mains electricity supply can also have an effect on sound quality. Many quite respected hi-fi experts still dismiss this theory as rubbish. 
 I should state which side of the fence I am on regarding this issue so let me say that from my own experiments, I have found that different types of cable (including mains) do affect the sound. 
 Before I receive floods of e-mails taking issue with me, I would like to qualify what I mean when I say 'different'. This applies to all hi-fi cabling, not just mains cables. 
 The explanation generally given for the effect of cables on the sound of a hi-fi system goes something like this. Any length of wire or cable has properties such as resistance, capacitance and inductance. These are also the properties which are used to build electrical filters such as loudspeaker crossovers and tone controls. An electrical filter of this type attenuates certain frequencies while allowing others to pass. The result is an effect on the overall tonal quality of a music signal. So the wire or cable is acting like a filter. 
 Many will still argue that the filter effects caused by a short length of cable are not enough to make an audible difference and it is true that any differences are more noticeable with longer interconnects and 'speaker cables. 
 I'm no scientist or engineer but I can detect differences in interconnects, even as short as nine inches. 
 So I accept that there are differences between cables but I don't subscribe to the idea that one cable sounds better than another. A cable might sound good in one system but not in another. Bearing in mind that the sound we hear from our loudspeakers is the result of the signal traveling through a variety of cables, connectors and electronic components, it is impossible to praise, or blame any one as there are so many variables. 
 Sometimes, there is a type of cable which does seem to work well in a majority of systems but most of the time, the only way to know if something works in your system is to try it. I have certainly found it worthwhile to try as many types of cable in my system as I can although I caution anyone against getting too carried away with cable experiments. The most common mistake in hi-fi is not realizing the difference between 'different' and 'better'!

 Experimenting
 There are two ways to experiment with cables: you can buy or borrow commercial examples or make your own. Even if you can find a supplier who will let you audition different cables before buying them, it will still involve visits back and forth to the store, or postage costs so I recommend the DIY approach. 
 If you do prefer to go with the ready-built cables, don't get fooled by all the hype. A popular trick is to offer '£200 interconnects for only £80'. Believe that and you'll believe anything. After all, an interconnect is a piece of cable with a simple plug on either end, material cost about £10 on average. Sure, there are overhead costs like marketing, and profits for the dealers, but the same goes for all hi-fi. It's getting silly when an interconnect costs more than an amplifier or CD player! 
 Making up your own hi-fi cables, whether interconnects, 'speaker cables or mains leads is not at all difficult and is a good way to get started in DIY hi-fi. The components need not cost too much and you don't need to work with high voltages (if you avoid mains cables). Just make sure that you don't create a short between the conductors and you can't go wrong. 
 At present, I don't intend to include any specific cable recipes as there are plenty to be found on the internet. You may like to start on the TNT site. 
 I will however, make a few general suggestions to start you off. 
 I've tried silver-plated cables and found that they sound different but not necessarily better than those with a plain copper conductor. Unless you've got money to throw away, I suggest sticking to copper conductors, at least while you are in the experimenting stage. The insulation used on wires is also a factor in how the wire 'sounds'. Materials such as PTFE are considered better than the usual PVC types (although they are usually only found on silver-plated conductors) However, I have now been told that PTFE/Teflon has a 'memory effect' and is therefore NOT recommended in hi-fi!
 If you do use silver-plated (or solid silver) conductors, make sure you use silver loaded solder.
 In my experience, a plug is a plug. I've tried all sorts, from the very cheap plastic types to expensive gold-plated ones. I don't think that there is any difference between them as regards sound quality and providing that the pins make good contact with the sockets they all seem to work fine. I now use the cheapo plastic types unless I need a larger cable entry which is necessary when using large diameter cables. 

 - Some of the larger cable configurations can be nigh on impossible to solder into even the larger phono plugs. An alternative is to use the larger XLO type plugs and sockets. Even if they don't improve sound quality, they are a lot easier to solder to!


 Phono plugs and XLO type plugs (right)
 Some of the readily available coaxial cables work well as interconnects or 'speaker cables. 

 - A coaxial cable known as RG58 works very well as a 'speaker cable. I used two lengths per 'speaker, one length with a solid conductor (RG58BU) and the other with a stranded conductor (RG58CU).


 A typical single conductor coaxial cable
 Use screened cables if your hi-fi is situated near equipment like TVs and VCRs. Kitchen foil works well when used with a drain wire. The drain wire is simply an uninsulated wire running the length of the cable and in contact with the foil. It is then soldered to the ground side of one of the phono plugs.
 When you discover a cable design which you like, see if you can refine that design to make it better.
 Use heat-shrink sleeving to finish your cables off neatly.
 A trial of IBM Type6
 Having finally managed to get hold of some IBM Type6 cable (thanks to Peter Bradley) I eventually got around to soldering on some phono plugs and trying out the results between my preamp and poweramps. The length of these interconnects is 1.4 metres. 
 The following coments are based on listening to these cables in MY system and should be read accordingly. The sound was well controlled and the bass lines defined but also integrated with the rest of the music. There is more bass than you would get with the 'bog standard' interconnect supplied with hi-fi equipment. 
 If I had come across IBM Type6 in my early days of playing with cables, I may well have settled with it on a long-term basis. However, repeadedly swapping between them and my 'reference' leads, I noticed that the latter were quite a bit more 'open' or transparent. Having said that, it is only fair to point out that the IMB Type6 leads had taken about 30 minutes to assemble while my 'reference' leads had taken the best part of a day. So, if you are looking for an 'easy' DIY interconnect, I would recommend the IBM Type6 as a very good starting point.

DIY Hi-fi cables


----------



## Quaddy

most definitely.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Quaddy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_most definitely._

 

You sure it real? Its not in your head?


----------



## Quaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You sure it real? Its not in your head? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

no please.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry you had trouble. I E-mailed the link to my Dad yesterday and he was able to get to the free stuff so I hope it is still working. Did you register and get an E-mail from them?

 "To download Hot Tones in High-Definition now, go to HDtracks.com and register your information. You'll receive a full set of instructions detailing how to immediately download your free Hot Tones in High-Definition. You'll also receive a PDF file containing the album cover art and liner notes".

 Kinda makes you pissed that all your CD's are not recorded like that._

 

I'm registered and have purchased 2 albums already. This is despite my not being in the US. I guess paying the PayPal made me able to be able to purchase without having a furnish a non-US address as billing information.

 Anyway, I looked around and didn't see any free material.

 I agree with you that it's a pity that all CD's are not recorded as these really high quality stuff.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not even musicians ? No one at all ?_

 

Good question.

 Only muscles can be built and trained to be stronger. The mind and senses are not trainable in similar ways. Yeah right! If this were true then we'd be in trouble. BTW, the converse applies in that if you don't exercise any part of yourself, it will become weak and inept. Same for hearing and remembering!


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good question.

 Only muscles can be built and trained to be stronger. The mind and senses are not trainable in similar ways. Yeah right! If this were true then we'd be in trouble. BTW, the converse applies in that if you don't exercise any part of yourself, it will become weak and inept. Same for hearing and remembering! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I re-registered and didnt get the e-mail for the free material, I guess that was a temporary thing. Glad you are enjoying the 2 you bought though.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any people with real experience step up to the plate and say something equivilent to "I compared a 5 dollar cable to a 200 dollar cable and they sounded the same" yet?._

 

Not sure that this would qualify...but...

 A few years ago I was running Totem Sinew RCA and XLR in my system, I remember paying $300.00 Canuckadollars for these +/-. I borrowed several cables one was the MIT Shotgun the other was the Transparent equlivent both RCA and XLR, these were listed at $1200.00 Canuckadollars +/-.
 They were used to connect an Arcam CD 23 to a Sunfire Classic Pre-amp (RCA) and Sunfire power amp (xlr).
 I could not hear a difference in the Totem cables and the MIT or Transparent.
 A while later I tried Tara Labs the Two and noticed the sound was more to my liking.

 After trying a few others I settled on Tara Labs the One. I still remember the day that I replaced all the cables RCA, XLR and Speaker, the music just snapped into place. I have replaced the One with the Sinew, with the sinew I quit listening to music after 20minutes to an hour, it gets tiring. 

 So in my experience just because a cable costs more does not mean it will sound better. There appears to be more going on than just price. 
 Experiment, if you find something that enhances your listening pleasure then great.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I re-registered and didnt get the e-mail for the free material, I guess that was a temporary thing. Glad you are enjoying the 2 you bought though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The 96khz/24bit Store is great. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is a great find.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interconnects, loudspeaker cables and mains leads. Do they affect sound quality and why? Suggestions for building your own and 'burning' them in.

 Hi-fi cabling is one of the most controversial topics in hi-fi circles, although much less so now than a few years ago. 
 At one time, we all connected our hi-fi together with the skinny cables supplied with the equipment and were quite happy with the bell-wire which joined our 'speakers to our amplifier. Then somebody, somewhere (I wonder who it was) started trying different types of cables and suggested that they could affect the sound of a hi-fi. 
 At first, many people ridiculed this suggestion including many who were qualified electronics engineers. Perhaps what annoyed the doubters most, was the plethora of over-priced cables which suddenly appeared on the market and sold with all sorts of ridiculous claims. However, as time passed and more people discovered that the type of cable does affect sound quality, the market for exotic interconnects and 'speaker cables grew and the arguments diminished. 
 The arguments have resurfaced recently as it has been suggested that apart from interconnects and 'speaker cable, the type of cable connecting equipment to the mains electricity supply can also have an effect on sound quality. Many quite respected hi-fi experts still dismiss this theory as rubbish. 
 I should state which side of the fence I am on regarding this issue so let me say that from my own experiments, I have found that different types of cable (including mains) do affect the sound. 
 Before I receive floods of e-mails taking issue with me, I would like to qualify what I mean when I say 'different'. This applies to all hi-fi cabling, not just mains cables. 
 The explanation generally given for the effect of cables on the sound of a hi-fi system goes something like this. Any length of wire or cable has properties such as resistance, capacitance and inductance. These are also the properties which are used to build electrical filters such as loudspeaker crossovers and tone controls. An electrical filter of this type attenuates certain frequencies while allowing others to pass. The result is an effect on the overall tonal quality of a music signal. So the wire or cable is acting like a filter. 
 Many will still argue that the filter effects caused by a short length of cable are not enough to make an audible difference and it is true that any differences are more noticeable with longer interconnects and 'speaker cables. 
 I'm no scientist or engineer but I can detect differences in interconnects, even as short as nine inches. 
 So I accept that there are differences between cables but I don't subscribe to the idea that one cable sounds better than another. A cable might sound good in one system but not in another. Bearing in mind that the sound we hear from our loudspeakers is the result of the signal traveling through a variety of cables, connectors and electronic components, it is impossible to praise, or blame any one as there are so many variables. 
 Sometimes, there is a type of cable which does seem to work well in a majority of systems but most of the time, the only way to know if something works in your system is to try it. I have certainly found it worthwhile to try as many types of cable in my system as I can although I caution anyone against getting too carried away with cable experiments. *The most common mistake in hi-fi is not realizing the difference between 'different' and 'better'!*

 Experimenting
 There are two ways to experiment with cables: you can buy or borrow commercial examples or make your own. Even if you can find a supplier who will let you audition different cables before buying them, it will still involve visits back and forth to the store, or postage costs so I recommend the DIY approach. 
 If you do prefer to go with the ready-built cables, don't get fooled by all the hype. A popular trick is to offer '£200 interconnects for only £80'. Believe that and you'll believe anything. After all, an interconnect is a piece of cable with a simple plug on either end, material cost about £10 on average. Sure, there are overhead costs like marketing, and profits for the dealers, but the same goes for all hi-fi. It's getting silly when an interconnect costs more than an amplifier or CD player! 
 Making up your own hi-fi cables, whether interconnects, 'speaker cables or mains leads is not at all difficult and is a good way to get started in DIY hi-fi. The components need not cost too much and you don't need to work with high voltages (if you avoid mains cables). Just make sure that you don't create a short between the conductors and you can't go wrong. 
 At present, I don't intend to include any specific cable recipes as there are plenty to be found on the internet. You may like to start on the TNT site. 
 I will however, make a few general suggestions to start you off. 
 I've tried silver-plated cables and found that they sound different but not necessarily better than those with a plain copper conductor. Unless you've got money to throw away, I suggest sticking to copper conductors, at least while you are in the experimenting stage. The insulation used on wires is also a factor in how the wire 'sounds'. Materials such as PTFE are considered better than the usual PVC types (although they are usually only found on silver-plated conductors) However, I have now been told that PTFE/Teflon has a 'memory effect' and is therefore NOT recommended in hi-fi!
 If you do use silver-plated (or solid silver) conductors, make sure you use silver loaded solder.
 In my experience, a plug is a plug. I've tried all sorts, from the very cheap plastic types to expensive gold-plated ones. I don't think that there is any difference between them as regards sound quality and providing that the pins make good contact with the sockets they all seem to work fine. I now use the cheapo plastic types unless I need a larger cable entry which is necessary when using large diameter cables. 

 - Some of the larger cable configurations can be nigh on impossible to solder into even the larger phono plugs. An alternative is to use the larger XLO type plugs and sockets. Even if they don't improve sound quality, they are a lot easier to solder to!


 Phono plugs and XLO type plugs (right)
 Some of the readily available coaxial cables work well as interconnects or 'speaker cables. 

 - A coaxial cable known as RG58 works very well as a 'speaker cable. I used two lengths per 'speaker, one length with a solid conductor (RG58BU) and the other with a stranded conductor (RG58CU).


 A typical single conductor coaxial cable
 Use screened cables if your hi-fi is situated near equipment like TVs and VCRs. Kitchen foil works well when used with a drain wire. The drain wire is simply an uninsulated wire running the length of the cable and in contact with the foil. It is then soldered to the ground side of one of the phono plugs.
 When you discover a cable design which you like, see if you can refine that design to make it better.
 Use heat-shrink sleeving to finish your cables off neatly.
 A trial of IBM Type6
 Having finally managed to get hold of some IBM Type6 cable (thanks to Peter Bradley) I eventually got around to soldering on some phono plugs and trying out the results between my preamp and poweramps. The length of these interconnects is 1.4 metres. 
 The following coments are based on listening to these cables in MY system and should be read accordingly. The sound was well controlled and the bass lines defined but also integrated with the rest of the music. There is more bass than you would get with the 'bog standard' interconnect supplied with hi-fi equipment. 
 If I had come across IBM Type6 in my early days of playing with cables, I may well have settled with it on a long-term basis. However, repeadedly swapping between them and my 'reference' leads, I noticed that the latter were quite a bit more 'open' or transparent. Having said that, it is only fair to point out that the IMB Type6 leads had taken about 30 minutes to assemble while my 'reference' leads had taken the best part of a day. So, if you are looking for an 'easy' DIY interconnect, I would recommend the IBM Type6 as a very good starting point.

DIY Hi-fi cables_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure that this would qualify...but...

 A few years ago I was running Totem Sinew RCA and XLR in my system, I remember paying $300.00 Canuckadollars for these +/-. I borrowed several cables one was the MIT Shotgun the other was the Transparent equlivent both RCA and XLR, these were listed at $1200.00 Canuckadollars +/-.
 They were used to connect an Arcam CD 23 to a Sunfire Classic Pre-amp (RCA) and Sunfire power amp (xlr).
 I could not hear a difference in the Totem cables and the MIT or Transparent.
 A while later I tried Tara Labs the Two and noticed the sound was more to my liking.

 After trying a few others I settled on Tara Labs the One. I still remember the day that I replaced all the cables RCA, XLR and Speaker, the music just snapped into place. I have replaced the One with the Sinew, with the sinew I quit listening to music after 20minutes to an hour, it gets tiring. 

*So in my experience just because a cable costs more does not mean it will sound better.* There appears to be more going on than just price. 
 Experiment, if you find something that enhances your listening pleasure then great._

 

I think this was covered.


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## KevM2

Exactly. Rushing out and dumping money into something doesn't necessitate that you will get superior sound. You have to build your system with synergy in mind and do the research to make sure you'll be getting value for your money.


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## olblueyez

Thats why I spent weeks and even months in some cases, reading up on a purchase. The only impulsive buys I made were tubes. Its ok though I have changed my favorite tube set a couple of times. Specifically the last time I replaced interconnects and also when I added a new headphone cable. Changing tubes was necessary because of the way both cables affected the sound.


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## qusp

I wonder why you recommend using silver loaded solder in silver cables but you dont see the point of using high quality silver connectors. or dont hear a difference. I always try and match the quality of the connectors tio the quality of the conductors. for a silver or jena labs cryo RCA cable I would use eichmann silver or sometimes copper bullets, but for a vampire cryo copper or cheaper cable I might use an entry level cardas. I use XLO minis if I want the best performance but switchacraft if I need it top be more rugged. I have found eichmann RCA to make a noticable difference in the SQ when copmpared to a cheap connector. they are mid level as far as price but can be a bitch to solder if you havent used them before. the low mass design seems to make the sound quality leaner and quicker, so great to use with silver in particular, to get the most detail possible. I think there is a good reason to use good connectors and that is the connector is the point that causes there to either be a great connection or an average one. I use cardas or WBT silver solder; but to me the connector is more important. a decent solder joint is just that, a solder joint; it either makes a good connection or not. 

 XLO do make great connectors though and not too expensive; not cheap; but not expensive either


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## olblueyez

Shooting werewolves and making trinkets to throw at the wife once in awhile are the only two good uses for silver that I can think of.


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## brotherlen

I believe that they do.


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## astroid

Interesting topic, my experience (and i have several expensive IC) is that they dont make a SQ change to MY system.

 I can however accept that it is possible.

 They did a good test here :

ABX Double Blind Tests: Interconnects and Wires


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Therefore the question is not how good is the general acoustic recognition memory of musicians , pretty good probably, but are they significantly better at recognizing miniscule differences of level in the spectra rather than fundamental changes in the music, and after a significant delay. This is rather harder than telling the difference between a sharp , a natural and a flat I woud posit._

 

I'd agree entirely here. Most people don't listen for those details when they are listen for music, nor would they consider such things. For wacky audiophiles like us, those micro details, like hearing the singer's lips parting as she opens her mouth to sing adds something to our experience. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So in my experience just because a cable costs more does not mean it will sound better. There appears to be more going on than just price. 
 Experiment, if you find something that enhances your listening pleasure then great._

 

I sometimes feel that listening to music in my car is more fun, where it's all mushed together. I have read lots of comments where a head-fi'er has given a friend a listen to their expensive headphones and said friend has said "I prefer my ibuds", much to their horror. The first time a regular joe hears their favourite pop or rock with a lot of clarity, it sounds rather empty.


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## progo

Voted 'yes': I believe it always impacts the signal (it's not zero resistant) but whether the impact can be heard is up to other factors. I've had some $5 cables that let the external noises 'leak' into and the sound is weird in other ways also.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *astroid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting topic, my experience (and i have several expensive IC) is that they dont make a SQ change to MY system.

 I can however accept that it is possible.

 They did a good test here :

ABX Double Blind Tests: Interconnects and Wires_

 

Tell us more about your system and your IC's.


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## astroid

Source is currently 2 cd players , a brand new Yamaha CD-S700 and an old Marantz CD63.
 Amp is Rotel RA-04 (going to buy the Yamaha 700 amp when i have some spare mulah) and i am using Russ Andrews Crystal-Cu at the moment, speakers are Quad 11L2.
 I usually compare ICs to some brandless IC iinherited with the Rotel amp.


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *astroid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Source is currently 2 cd players , a brand new Yamaha CD-S700 and an old Marantz CD63.
 Amp is Rotel RA-04 (going to buy the Yamaha 700 amp when i have some spare mulah) and i am using Russ Andrews Crystal-Cu at the moment, speakers are Quad 11L2.
 I usually compare ICs to some brandless IC iinherited with the Rotel amp._

 

Looks like your IC is not shielded, have you used shielded IC's? Any thoughts on using a shielded cable?


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## astroid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like your IC is not shielded, have you used shielded IC's? Any thoughts on using a shielded cable?_

 

I am happy with my setup at the moment , it has a lot of room for upgrading but the ICs are last on my list.


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## olblueyez

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...1/#post4997613

 This is a very good deal on a really nice cable.


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## gadgetman

I'm a non believer, AND it's very hard to dispute a proper double blind test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Although... there's no doubt that the price and visual aspect of the packaging affects the psychological 'value' of the product to the listener. Since SQ is a very subjective experience, would you say that the improvements caused from these aspects (psychological increase of perceived value from the price and visual packaging) is a valid improvement of SQ?


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## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gadgetman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a non believer, AND it's very hard to dispute a proper double blind test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Although... there's no doubt that the price and visual aspect of the packaging affects the psychological 'value' of the product to the listener. Since SQ is a very subjective experience, would you say that the improvements caused from these aspects (psychological increase of perceived value from the price and visual packaging) is a valid improvement of SQ?_

 

Please tell us about your sound system and your experience with cables. Also, what are your thoughts on cable shielding?


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## nick_charles

Cables arrived




 All cables





 Audioquest





 Audioquest-unboxed




 Blue jeans




 Tartan (Belden)




 Stocky




 Monoprice




 Audioquest-Blue-jeans-AR


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## olblueyez

Pretty Pretty


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## Pale Rider

I think progro said it well. Personally, I believe that "everything matters," in the quantum sense. Whether we can hear it may be debatable, and there are plenty of tests that folks flunk. When I started out in audio in my early teens, I had trouble hearing some very obvious things. It was time and exposure, and the learning that came with them, that taught me what to listen for in the first place. As I have gotten older, and had some tinnitus start up on me, I know there are things I no longer hear. But there are things I hear just fine, such as the effect of breaking or burning in[yes, I know they are different terms] some equipment. I also know there are differences in conductivity of different materials, that there are differences arising from equipment and cable matching, etc. To me, it makes sense to do my best job to match my stuff up well, on the theory that it contributes to the greatest possible fidelity to the original signal, and that it will give me the opportunity to hear the most that my budget affords. 

 It's also fun, and as gadgetman notes above, there is a psychological factor as well. Right now, I am waiting on a new set of Grover Huffman balanced ICs, and half the fun--well, maybe a little less--will be in seeing the construction quality, and trying to see if I can hear any difference from my other cables. In one sense, that's the same reason I am putting together a balanced system, to do it, and to see what I can hear.


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