# PINT pulled...



## cmirza

Looks like Tangent pulled the PINT... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://headwize.com/ubb/showpost.php...50894&fpage=13


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## nysulli

that really is a shame, my pint performs almost flawlessly and sounds fantastic for the amount of money it cost me


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## fierce_freak

Unfortunate, really. I hope there is a good alternative at some point. I just got my cmoy parts so I could get back into electronics before tackling the pint. Oh well.


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## threepointone

eh. at least i got a couple of boards already.

 who knows, maybe this could be an opportunity to revise the board design or something. . . maybe there's something with the board design which could help reduce oscillations or something.

 man, apart from the difficulty of making it, the PINT had just about everything good put into one--extremely small, very cheap, and excellent sound. I know there's the mini^3 (hopefully) coming out someday, but that really can't match the size of the PINT.


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## mb3k

Dang, I hope the best in future designs.
 The PINT was my major motivation into getting me hooked into DIY amps - from the disappointment of no more MINT boards being produced, then waiting eagerly to see what the PINT was up to, getting the boards in the mail, to working on the little PCB.


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## K2Grey

Time for people to find out tangent's address and then drive over to kowtow in front of his house for 7 days and nights to beg him to reverse his decision


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## bhjazz

Wow. That's too bad. We all know he puts a lot of time and effort into these projects. Well, gotta repsect him for doing what he believes is the right thing to do. Go, bruddah!


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## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K2Grey* 
_Time for people to find out tangent's address and then drive over to kowtow in front of his house for 7 days and nights to beg him to reverse his decision 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

oooh, i know it, i know it! it's right on the return address on his shipping envelope 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 anyone want to carpool to new mexico


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## Filburt

Gah! I needed some boards, too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This was one of the best portable amps I've ever used, and it offered a serious, inexpensive alternative to the more expensive amps out there.


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## gigit

dang... and just as i was about to start trying to build them also... it sounds like a fun project (though definatlely a challenging one), i was looking forward to it... I guess now it is just going to be a little harder to get my hands on some of thoes boards


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## Filburt

Well my hybrid broke from I think someone goofing around with it, though I'm not positive who. So I really need a new board to build it back up with


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## jl123

The failure rate is not Tangent's or the designs fault. I think it has to do with people not reading the documentation carefully and then coming on the forums to ask questions that are clearly answered on his site. Part of the problem is people just jumping into the project without enough experience. Who's going to control that? These things even happen with the well documented cmoy design. I'm disappointed that the PINT is now pulled because I just built two the other night without a single problem. Finally got once cased up today that is driving my ksc75s, hd650s, and k701s just fine. 

 I'll have nightmares about this tonight.


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## dhp

well, just look at the posts by so many people... one of them asked if ad8397s would work in a mini^3ified design


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## jl123

Well will it? Tell me because I can't find out for myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll seriously buy any boards anyone is not going to use. Especially if tangent won't take my bribe to bring the pint back.


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## fierce_freak

lol, we're going to have pint boards going for exorbitant prices.

 having said that, i need one.

 ouch.


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## splaz

Thank you all for attending this auction for 1 PINT board.

 Shall we start the bidding at $50US ?

 Do I hear 50... ?







 In all seriousness though it would take a lot of money to make me want to sell my 2nd board. For anyone that might be thinking of sending me a PM... I mean a lot... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not that happy with the decision, although it is tangents to make. I think that it would have been a good idea for tangent to work on a less cranky design. But should have left the PINT around until that was out and put many disclaimers on his site about potential problems and the sort of experience needed.

 As a side note. Seems quite a few want them still. Tangent would you mind if boards were made ?

 Because something like a group buy/sell for no profit could be an option for those that missed out. Although that might go against tangent's wishes of keeping these nasty PINTs off the streets...


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## kramer5150

That's too bad!!

 I was looking forward to spending some shop-time with Filburt this summer and building up a couple.... I dont have the solder-skills to do one by myself.

 I wonder if "commercial" Forum sponsors were complaining to that the amp is "Too Good".... and such?... and if that was a contributiong factor in the pints demise?

 ???
 Garrett


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## jbloudg20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* 
_That's too bad!!

 I was looking forward to spending some shop-time with Filburt this summer and building up a couple.... I dont have the solder-skills to do one by myself.

 I wonder if "commercial" Forum sponsors were complaining to that the amp is "Too Good".... and such?... and if that was a contributiong factor in the pints demise?

 ???
 Garrett_

 

I highly doubt it, as most of the PINT discussion has taken place on headwize, and not on this forum. Tangent has, for the most part, kept the PINT off this forum and away from the politics.

 That being said, this amp really is THAT GOOD.


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## dhp

I'll uh... sell my board for 300USD... parts cost 30 dollars, there, you have an amp that easily bests commercial amps in that same price range 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 j/k... or am i


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## cmirza

I never really learned what the difference was SQ-wise between the standard PINT and the Mini^3-fied PINT. 

 I know the mini^3-fied sounds more like a Mini^3 amp, but just what does it sounds like relative to the PINT?


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## The Monkey

I was wondering if Tangent might do this and while it's too bad, I can understand his reasoning.

 I'm glad I've got one almost finished. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wonder if the Mint will make a brief comeback?


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## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmirza* 
_I never really learned what the difference was SQ-wise between the standard PINT and the Mini^3-fied PINT. 

 I know the mini^3-fied sounds more like a Mini^3 amp, but just what does it sounds like relative to the PINT?_

 

less noise


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## nysulli

i think one last group buy of boards would be a good thing, simply because there are a number of people here that would like to have at least 1 board, if not a few, i for one would like to have a 3 or 4 to make for friends or to try different opamp combinations


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## [AK]Zip

Guys tangent made his decision final. He sold the rest of the boards he had and is moving on to a better and greater project.

 -Alex-


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## cire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmirza* 
_I never really learned what the difference was SQ-wise between the standard PINT and the Mini^3-fied PINT._

 

they should sound nearly identical, but the PINT has much higher floor noise.


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## Pendergast

That is quite sad.

 I had a great deal of fun making those amps.


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## Windchill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* 
_...a better and greater project.

 -Alex-_

 

Looking forward to anything Tangent comes up with.


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## quicksilver96

First surface mount project for me and mine is up and running with no hassle at all. Totally prefer smd over through hole too. Wish I could get my hands on another board for a friend, don't know why I didn't order 2 (or 10) right off. Guess its Pimeta or PPA time for the desktop anyway. Looking forward to the next portable creation though.


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## fierce_freak

My interest currently is almost soley in portable designs, so hopefully Tangent's latest and greatest will be such.


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## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* 
_My interest currently is almost soley in portable designs, so hopefully Tangent's latest and greatest will be such._

 

Tangents latest and greatest will be the same size as the Pint.


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## tangent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jl123* 
_The failure rate is not Tangent's or the designs fault._

 

Sorry, I disagree. I knew that the AD8397 does not like to be run in unity gain. I knew that it didn't have overcurrent protection. These two issues probably account for at least 80% of the failures. 

 I didn't release the design thinking that they'd still be problems. I tried to correct them in the three prototyping stages. When my latest prototype builds worked, I decided to release it. It turns out that my fixes just didn't have enough margin for the real world, though. We did need the "field trial" to find that out....now that we've got the results, I think the course of action is clear.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cire* 
_they should sound nearly identical, but the PINT has much higher floor noise._

 

No, not really. "Mini3fying" combines two unrelated changes.

 One puts the output impedance devices -- ferrites usually -- outside the feedback loop. The method suggested by AMB and adopted universally as far as I can tell is to cut some traces on the board and mount components in a hacky way, but all you really have to do is use bead type ferrites on the output wires.

 The other change lowers the noise floor, but you can do that without any of the above changes. It's shown on the second page of the PINT schematic, and it most certainly is not "Mini3fied". The second page of the PINT is relatively recent, but the instructions to do what is expressed there were in the PINT's parts selection guide from the start.

 In fact, the info was on my site before the PINT was even available: I put up the new "cranky op-amps" article and the op-amp noise calculator before I released the PINT.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *splaz* 
_Seems quite a few want them still. Tangent would you mind if boards were made ?_

 

Now why would you want to go and do that? PINT v1.3 is a flawed design.

 I'll _think_ about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't _need_ to understand it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* 
_I wonder if "commercial" Forum sponsors were complaining to that the amp is "Too Good".... and such?_

 

You know, we're about at the 4th anniversary of the META42's introduction, and in those 4 years, I don't believe I've ever heard directly from any of the commercial manufacturers. Not once, positive or negative. And the only things I've heard from them indirectly are just commentary, no pressure of any kind.

 There is no conspiracy to deprive you of PINTs. It's just physics.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* 
_Wonder if the Mint will make a brief comeback?_

 

I never was thrilled with the MINT. It was without question my lowest-end PCB design, even below the META42. I'd hoped the PINT would be the way I could raise the performance bar on the low end. That's why, in this next version, I will be continuing on roughly the same path, not going back to the MINT.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Windchill* 
_Looking forward to anything Tangent comes up with._

 

Thank you! I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards.

 Scarcity is often correlated with high worth, but not in this case!


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_... snip ...
*Thank you! I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards.
*... snip ..._

 

If you don't mind, that statement deserved some emphasis. Personally, I am content to wait for the next great thing from you. No doubt, it will be worth it.


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## 69CamaroSS396

Tangent, I don't want to debate your reasons for calling the MINT your "lowest-end PCB design". But I will say I enjoyed the two MINTs I assembled more so than any other I've done in my brief experience. I just wish I had a stash of the pcbs so I could pull one out now and then for the sheer enjoyment of the build.


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## nysulli

don't get me wrong tangent, i'm very much looking forward to your next design, if its something that can take down the PINT in terms of portability and performance, it'll be truely impressive, but, i do believe with the proper know-how and some forethought on the exact configuration, the pint can be made into a very rewarding build with few problems


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## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_I'll think about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't need to understand it._

 

One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me. It took almost 10 years. 

 My customers are happier and I have less stress.


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards._

 

Tangent, I really hope you go this route rather than making more PINT boards. I for one would rather wait for something you feel is without flaw (or closer to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) than to see you continue to produce something you're not happy with. I think I understand a bit how frustrating it is to see folks have problems building based on a board you designed. It's no fun. I hope other people understand that your motivations have their best interest in mind. Sure it leaves a bit of a hole in the portable DIY market but you can't always get what you want, right?

 Best of luck with whatever comes next, I'll be there waiting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

 Nate


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## fierce_freak

On to waiting for Tangents latest and greatest...guess I'll go explore some other DIY fun-ness during the wait


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## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_I'll think about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't need to understand it._

 

I'd really appreciate this, personally. While I realise you believe the PINT is flawed, the fact remains, for me anyhow, that it's one of the most satisfying portable amps I've used, and I'd like to have some spare boards both so I can re-do my AD8397/LM6172 PINT as it has been damaged by someone in my vicinity goofing around with it, and also 'just in case'. 

 That said, I have confidence in your ability to improve upon the design, and look forward to it. Your concerns and response seem reasonable to me, overall. However, I'd also rather not have one of my PINT configurations out of commission in the interim, and also would like to build a few other configurations during that period. I think I'm pretty qualified at this point to build these successfully, as are a few others here, and so I do think the limited run of some more boards may be a good comprimise overall.


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## Heady

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me. It took almost 10 years. 

 My customers are happier and I have less stress._

 


 OT - ha ha, that's the lesson I am trying to learn now. It isn't easy to go against your professional opinion. But then he who pays the piper gets to call the tune, right?


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## Filburt

Well, tangent does this mostly for fun and our and his benefit, as I understand it, rather than just being some sort of straight business. So with this in mind, his decision probably makes a bit more sense. That said, my personal opinion is that the PINT was a great asset to the DIY community irrespective of the problems associated, so I *will* miss it. However, if the PINT has shown us anything, it's probably that tangent is capable of putting out high quality portable amp projects...so I do have some confidence in the future project he's working on


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## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Heady* 
_OT - ha ha, that's the lesson I am trying to learn now. It isn't easy to go against your professional opinion. But then he who pays the piper gets to call the tune, right?_

 


 Exactly! But it goes way beyond that. We are all infallible and no matter how open minded we try to be (or think we are) we are on a different side of the fence than our customers. It bugs me terribly to put out code that is imperfect or out of harmony with my systems (or in extreme cases somewhat nonsensical) and it is hard to step back from that. My customers could not care less. They have a need and they are not concerned with philosophical issues of perfection and harmony. They want something "good enough" to make their life a little better.

 In the context of this situation, Tangent is in the same boat I am at times; his product is imperfect by his way of thinking, but many of his customers simply want a new project to build. Different sides of the fence.

 In my case, I ordered a couple of Pint boards and lots of alternative parts mainly because of all the problems I read here. I wanted a challenge (something beyond stuff and play) and integral to that challenge was accepting the risk that my boards might never work. It even motivated me to pull the trigger on a scope purchase that I had been waxing over for some time. Different sides of the fence.


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## Heady

I already had respect for Tangent when I saw his site and ordered a Pimeta board and parts from him, his service is very professional. But this PINT episode has deepen my respect. And it's quite clear, he is doing this for the fun and community. Thanks Tangent.


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## tangent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me._

 

Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it. 

 I, too am a software developer by day, and if anything, I'm guilty with the PINT of treating it too much like software. We software developers get in the habit of just shipping the code, knowing we can update it in the field later. I can't send out a patch to people with broken PINTs; I can't ask them to reboot to fix blown chips.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Filburt* 
_While I realise you believe the PINT is flawed, the fact remains, for me anyhow, that it's one of the most satisfying portable amps I've used_

 

You know, your messages in particular have been more successful at swaying me than probably anyone else's. Why? Your agony thread is one of the biggest reasons I decided to pull the PINT. Despite all you've been through, you're still willing to build more? I gotta say, I didn't see that coming.

  Quote:


 However, if the PINT has shown us anything, it's probably that tangent is capable of putting out high quality portable amp projects. 
 

Me, I'd say that it's shown -- in case anyone was unsure about this -- that I'm fallible. 

 Yeah, I know, send out a press release...


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## NeilR

Agony thread? Please give me a link. I don't recall any agony. If you are talking about my observation of the charging reg leakage, you seriously misread my point.

 Regards,
 Neil


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it. 

 I, too am a software developer by day, and if anything, I'm guilty with the PINT of treating it too much like software. We software developers get in the habit of just shipping the code, knowing we can update it in the field later. I can't send out a patch to people with broken PINTs; I can't ask them to reboot to fix blown chips.

 You know, your messages in particular have been more successful at swaying me than probably anyone else's. Why? Your agony thread is one of the biggest reasons I decided to pull the PINT. Despite all you've been through, you're still willing to build more? I gotta say, I didn't see that coming.

 Me, I'd say that it's shown -- in case anyone was unsure about this -- that I'm fallible. 

 Yeah, I know, send out a press release... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## dsavitsk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it._

 

I think you are underestimating the amount of damage bad software can do.

 On topic, I don't particularly care if pints are available or not, but I think a note in the docs saying the AD opamp is unstable and only intended for advanced builders who can deal with that instability should be sufficient.


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## tangent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Agony thread? Please give me a link. I don't recall any agony. If you are talking about my observation of the charging reg leakage, you seriously misread my point._

 

I wasn't quoting you, Neil. Look at my previous post again, and you'll see that I was responding to Filburt. It's this thread of his that I was referring to. 13 pages...I'd call that some serious agony.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dsavitsk* 
_I think you are underestimating the amount of damage bad software can do. ... snip ..._

 

Boy, that statement is a mouthful (about bad software - not Tangent). Try bad software in a process control system - or worse: flight controls.


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## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dsavitsk* 
_I think you are underestimating the amount of damage bad software can do.

 On topic, I don't particularly care if pints are available or not, but I think a note in the docs saying the AD opamp is unstable and *only intended for advanced builders who can deal with that instability* should be sufficient._

 

I dunno, it hasn't been sufficient yet


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## vixr

My PINT blows my mind. The cool factor is off the chart. The PINT got pulled because Tangent didn't dumb it down enough... (Insert Carlos Mencia sound effect here) what a shame...


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## kramer5150

I heard fiburts pints today and WOW.... Talk about a GREAT sounding little amp. Hard to believe its just ~$50 in parts
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Smoother, more open, and less "shouty" sounding than either of my mints. He has 2 configurations.... one was more bass-heavy, with forward mids. The other was much smoother acros the spectrum and less "in the head" sounding, with a little more spatial separation.

 I am Bummed... I was looking forward to some shop time this summer with him tutoring me on the build.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I for one dont see filburts 13 page thread as agonizing at all. IMHO it is VERY informative, and Tangent, as flawed as you might think the pint is, there are a LOT of members who disagree... I for one
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways... I respect your decision.. and will continue to wait patiently for your next project.

 Thanks all!
 Garrett


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## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_
 You know, your messages in particular have been more successful at swaying me than probably anyone else's. Why? Your agony thread is one of the biggest reasons I decided to pull the PINT. Despite all you've been through, you're still willing to build more? I gotta say, I didn't see that coming._

 

Yikes, _this_ is what actually greatly distresses me. I deeply regret that I am in some way responsible for people missing out on the PINT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 I just took the failures as part of the learning process, and I did learn a lot while doing it. I consider it a valuable experience, and I actually enjoyed it throughout, including when things didn't work out as I took it as an opportunity to learn through troubleshooting and experimentation with the parts.

 At this point, I'm rather confident I can build another one successfully, and I think I've worked out a pretty reliable way for others to as well. I mostly just see the early reports of failures as growing pains for the design that would decline with time. Considering how happy I am with the PINT and its performance (as well as the learning experience), I think of the time, effort, and even money as well spent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Me, I'd say that it's shown -- in case anyone was unsure about this -- that I'm fallible. 
 

Eh, I guess because I work in a place where people build prototypes and work out the kinks in designs, I'm used to these sorts of things happening and don't regard it as a black mark in general, especially if workarounds and fixes are eventually found (as is the case). If I'd known that my discussing each issue along the way would result in the project being pulled, it's doubtful I would have posted so much (if at all). I didn't post all of it because I was in agony or upset. I posted it to document every issue I encountered so people could use it as a resource for troubleshooting and to help in developing instructions for future builders on how to successfully implement a dual AD8397 PINT w/out input caps and high value resistors.


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## Clutz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_There is no conspiracy to deprive you of PINTs. It's just physics._

 

I'm not so sure. Personally, I think it's a conspiracy between Da Vinci and Sir Isaac Newton.


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## wowie11

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Clutz* 
_I'm not so sure. Personally, I think it's a conspiracy between Da Vinci and Sir Isaac Newton._

 

I read that book...so the PINT is what is in the grail...


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## Pendergast

A friend of mine to whom I gave my first PINT (not minified) explained how she got the interest and awe from people at a HIFI store where she went to casually purchase a male to male cable.

 They were totally impressed with the thing, not only the size, but also the sound.

 And yes, there is a little hiss, but no one was bothered by it; they loved it.

 My friend is a nurse, far from being an audiophile, although she used to sing professionally, and she is very appreciative of my gift to her.

 I have 2 minified PINTs, one portable, and one plugged to the wall electrical sockets, in a nice black box, with Grados 225 plugged in and both things sing to my ears.

 Maybe I am just an impressionable newbie. But I did not bother with measurement with the meter. I just have a very good time with it.

 Can't be thankful enough for the opportunity that was given to me to make them, and the tricks I learned in these boards about it.

 Can't wait to see the successor.


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## Edwood

FWIW, Tangent had a very nice SMD solding tutorial and video on his site, with the Pint as a great way to get started in SMD work. OR course, once you're used to SOIC soldering SMD caps and resistors are quite easy.


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## Filburt

If someone has a spare board, please contact me. I really need one


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## splaz

Filburt please remove yourself... your sad smiley and WTB thread are making me feel guilty that I have two...


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## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *splaz* 
_Filburt please remove yourself... your sad smiley and WTB thread are making me feel guilty that I have two... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 I'm sorry, but I really do need a board. I'm not sure what else to do :/


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## splaz

Tie yourself to a lamp post outside tangent's house and go on hunger strike until he gets you a board.

 I just had a thought. Has anyone actually sent you a board back tangent ?


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## jl123

I threw 10 away the other day because the pint is just that flawed.


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## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jl123* 
_I threw 10 away the other day because the pint is just that flawed.














_

 

Where is your trash can? Your in DFW so I will go looking.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Alex-


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## mik000000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Filburt* 
_If someone has a spare board, please contact me. I really need one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have a Pint board, I am not sure I am going to use. Am very new at this, and not sure my soldering skills or troubleshooting skills are up to the Pint board. 
 Am also building a Pimeta, and would be willing to trade Pint board for some buf634's which I am having trouble locating


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## vixr

west florida components on ebay has a lot of 5 BUF634U for sale...


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## mb3k

Jameco just got more BUF634P's in stock... hopefully it's a big shipment.
 Here's the secret link: Jameco URL

 EDIT: Edited the name of the url, it was too long before.


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## Filburt

Hmm...I'll see what I can do.


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## tangent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *splaz* 
_Tie yourself to a lamp post outside tangent's house_

 

There is one out there... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Has anyone actually sent you a board back tangent ? 
 

Nope. And I don't have any held back, so please don't ask.


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