# Apple Music  Now with lossless high-res and spatial audio



## CharlyBrown (Jun 8, 2021)

Wouldn’t that be just great? HiFi / High Res (unfortunately no information about Bitrate, quality given) at zero additional cost rumored.

Let’s speculate, quality would be the same as Tidal. Differentiation came down only to “AI“ Features, Suggestions. Maybe content, are they different these days, anyway?


Rumor: Apple to Announce Third-Generation AirPods and HiFi Apple Music Tier in 'Coming Weeks'

*Update 21/06/07*

Apple Music supporting Lossless Audio, High-Res Lossless Audio and Dolby Atmos (Spatial Audio) is now released to the public!

Read the news on Macrumors


*Update 21/05/17*:

*It’s now official, starting as soon as in June:* Apple Announcement

- Spacial Audio
- Dolby Atmos
- Lossless Audio Streaming at now additional costs! (Apple says 20 million songs will be available in Lossless Audio at launch, with the full 75 million songs available by the end of the year.)

W O W! This will give the other services a headache, I think!!

From macrumors:

Apple Music's standard Lossless tier will start at "CD quality," which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz, and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz, according to Apple. Apple Music will also offer Hi-Res Lossless up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.

By default, Apple Music will automatically play Dolby Atmos tracks on all AirPods and Beats headphones with an H1 or W1 chip, as well as the built-in speakers in the latest versions of the iPhone, iPad, and Mac, according to Apple.


Apple Music will be getting new Dolby Atmos tracks constantly and will offer a curated selection of Dolby Atmos playlists, according to Apple. Dolby Atmos albums will have a badge on their detail page for easy discovery.

Spatial Audio and Lossless Audio will be available on iOS 14.6, iPadOS 14.6, macOS 11.4, and tvOS 14.6 or later.

Add: Lossless seems to work with ANY kind of headphone, connected through external DAC/AMP:

How can I listen to lossless audio?​You can listen to lossless audio using the latest Apple Music app on an iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Apple TV.7 ('https://www.apple.com/apple-music/#footnote-8') Turn on lossless audio in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. You can choose between Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless for cellular or Wi-Fi connections. Note that Hi-Res Lossless requires external equipment such as a USB digital to analog converter.

„Apple Digital Master“ - Sounds like a direct attack on Tidal MQA:


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## SnowRang3r

Especially if they add a Hi-Fi tier to Apple Music they really need to look at including AptX-HD, LDAC support. Although knowing Apple they’ll probably create their own higher bitrate codec.


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## CharlyBrown

Definitely! Apples bluetooth implementation is a joke currently.


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## originalsnuffy

Yes, they would need LDAC or the equivalent to really pursue HiRes.

My personal beef with Apple Music services is that if you use them, it pretty much takes over the Apple music app.   Which means that as far as I can tell you can't use that ecosystem to upload your own music.   Yes, you could put other music apps on your phone and play music that way; but it gets messy.   Of course you could argue that using Spotify etc. is equally messy.


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## new2mus

It would be great to have another competitor with lossless CD or better quality service. But, I still have reservations from the iTunes days. At least streaming won't have the same DRM (even with purchase) issues. It'd be especially easier given some cell phone providers add Apple Music for free ... at least worth a trial.


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## jwbrent

Likely CD lossless quality only, not hi res. I certainly wouldn’t mind if I was proven wrong. 🤞


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## CharlyBrown

originalsnuffy said:


> Yes, they would need LDAC or the equivalent to really pursue HiRes.
> 
> My personal beef with Apple Music services is that if you use them, it pretty much takes over the Apple music app.   Which means that as far as I can tell you can't use that ecosystem to upload your own music.   Yes, you could put other music apps on your phone and play music that way; but it gets messy.   Of course you could argue that using Spotify etc. is equally messy.


Well you can upload your music but there are some limitations in place. I think only files better than 96kbit/s and max 200MB / less than 2h playtime or so are possible (not sure). So at current date I think it’s not possible to upload ultra high res files with more than 200MB (or whatever the limitation is…).


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## myromeo

This is interesting news. I hope they do it right and support other high bitrate bluetooth codecs. Perfect opportunity.

I’m they doing need to allow you to load your local ALAC library in addition to cloud music / downloads tho. It seems crazy I can’t sync my library to my 256gb iPhone but can stream them back at a lower bitrate!

come one apple, give us high res bluetooth compatible with existing third party brands and let us sync our local files with Apple Music. This could be amazing.


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## originalsnuffy (May 2, 2021)

CharlyBrown said:


> Well you can upload your music but there are some limitations in place. I think only files better than 96kbit/s and max 200MB / less than 2h playtime or so are possible (not sure). So at current date I think it’s not possible to upload ultra high res files with more than 200MB (or whatever the limitation is…).


Is this process documented somewhere?   I trialed Apple Music and got frustrated with the way it took over my phone.   I have playlists or lectures (sort of like podcasts) that were lost when Apple Music took over the phone.  

Right now, at least on iphones, music is limited to 24 bit 48 khz.    I do wonder if Apple will ever lift those restrictions.  And of course there is no lossless on Apple Music (at least to my knowledge) let alone hi res.  

Fortunately Amazon Music HD works fine on the phone.   I limit it to HD (which is basically redbook), as getting hi res out of a phone requires an external DAC.    That is a good compromise for me as it mates well with my wife's car.   She has wireless carplay that can apparently handle up to 16 bit 44 khz.  In my car I can directly connect the phone to the car DAC via USB and limiting to HD works pretty well also.   However my car has an aux input so I typically feed music from my HiBy R5.   On that device Amazon HD is set for hi res.


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## CharlyBrown

I just googled, and it seems that the 200MB limitation is now gone?

Reddit

In the end, the whole process with local high-res files doesn’t seem to be ideal as it is today. I think it is best to use a separate app for high-res music and Apple Music for streaming.


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## ubs28

That would be great news if they can also introduce a new high quality bluetooth codec. Since my iPhone 12 Pro Max and Apple AirPods Max are restricted to AAC, it won't benefit from this high-quality streaming option.


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## PopZeus

This is a really silly move by Apple when they've gone through considerable effort to cap audio quality at 256 kbps AAC throughout their entire hardware lineup. For a company that prides itself on ease of use, getting CD-quality audio from an iPhone is very cumbersome, if not completely impractical.


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## CharlyBrown

I think you can say a lot about Apple but not that they wouldn’t improve their lineup in iterations.


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## PopZeus

CharlyBrown said:


> I think you can say a lot about Apple but not that they wouldn’t improve their lineup in iterations.


What does "improve" even mean to Apple? What does it mean to the typical audiophile? I don't think they're the same thing. At least not historically. I don't need to go through every instance of Apple choosing convenience over quality to point out that there's good reason to be skeptical of Apple discovering CD quality audio when they still can't play back FLAC natively on any of their platforms. I won't say never though. I'm sure if they do introduce HQ bluetooth audio tech to their products, it'll sound great. But this is about goosing their low Apple Music subs, mostly. They're not going to start playing super nice with wired headphones when their brand is wireless audio. As a devoted Apple user, I feel okay in saying that Android will likely continue to be the audiophile mobile OS platform of choice. As much as I would love to be wrong, it's doubtful we'll see an explosion of dope 3rd party dongle DACs for iPhone anytime soon either.


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## visanj (May 15, 2021)

Just now noticed this thread

It looks like Apple may introduce both 24/48 and 24 192 as stated in the link

The code discovered in the Android app reveals the two choices for lossless playback:



> _Lossless
> ALAC up to 24-bit/48 kHz
> High-Res Lossless
> ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz_


https://www.xda-developers.com/apple-music-lossless-audio-animated-covers/

The problem is how they are going to achieve this. iPhones don't have headphone jack. so the only option is bluetooth and right now they support only AAC codec. So unless apple comes with some proprietary bluetooth codec for ALAC, this is not authentic news. I don't think Apple is so dumb to introduce lossless music service with iphones supporting only AAC bluetooth codec


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## CharlyBrown

True, there are some hints and some rumors going around right now. These numbers you posted look really really promising, that would cover Tidal territory…

On the other hand there are rumors Apple will only support Hi-FI with their own gear like AirPods, and that would be absolutely ridiculous. Let’s wait what will actually come but I think they will support all headphones and external gear (dac/amp/DAP) in order to stay competitive against Spotify and their upcoming Hi-FI offering. 

Competition is really a good thing for us consumers!!


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## originalsnuffy

There is more and more evidence that this is really going to happen.   I wonder how it will work as until now Apple phones are limited to 24 bit 48 khz yet the Android Apple music apps have evidence of suport for up to 192khz.


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## kumar402

originalsnuffy said:


> There is more and more evidence that this is really going to happen.   I wonder how it will work as until now Apple phones are limited to 24 bit 48 khz yet the Android Apple music apps have evidence of suport for up to 192khz.


Apple phones limited to 24/48? I don’t think so.
May be their video app as videos have 24/48Khz


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## visanj

Apple phones support upto 24/48 but thats via lightning. But I believe this time Apple is not referring to wired in any way. Whatever lossless Apple is referring to is for bluetooth

On second thought, other possibility could be a proprietary codec based on wifi. I mean Apple can do anything, why not a codec that works on wifi rather than bluetooth as wifi supports much more bandwidth for hi-res. And Apple can implement propretary codec on top of wifi like airplay but with phone controls etc


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## originalsnuffy (May 16, 2021)

Apple does do a version of wireless lossless wifi.   It is called car play; as implemented on BMW and possibly other cars.
As far as I can tell it is limited to 16 bit 44 khz.


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## originalsnuffy

kumar402 said:


> Apple phones limited to 24/48? I don’t think so.
> May be their video app as videos have 24/48Khz


To date Apple phones are in fact limited to 24 / 48.    It was never clear if that limit was in HW or SW.   You can use the iphone as a bit bucket for external DACS and get around those limits.   However, it seems they will go past those limits on Android and it is logical that they do so on the iphone.


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## CharlyBrown

visanj said:


> Apple phones support upto 24/48 but thats via lightning. But I believe this time Apple is not referring to wired in any way. Whatever lossless Apple is referring to is for bluetooth
> 
> On second thought, other possibility could be a proprietary codec based on wifi. I mean Apple can do anything, why not a codec that works on wifi rather than bluetooth as wifi supports much more bandwidth for hi-res. And Apple can implement propretary codec on top of wifi like airplay but with phone controls etc



That’s what I was afraid of at first, too. But looking at the main competitor Spotify, they will most likely not limit their HiFi offering to wireless and Apple needs to keep up, don’t they?

On the other hand, Apple might ignore „true audiophiles“ with their wired gear and external dac/amp devices as they are just a niche group. We might see what comes on Tuesday when rumors about an announcement on that day are true.


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## Kalnet101

Kinda hoping it won't be for bluetooth only but I'm lowkey hoping for them to announce a new ipod to go along with this rumoured HiFi stuff.


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## visanj

on another note I am happy with their 256 kbps apple digital matters. dont feel that i am losing much. but the problem is with mixing/recording. I will prefer good recorded 256 kbps aac over poorly recorded hi-res any day (assuming there are 2 different masters). if the core recording is crap no matter whatever lossless/hi-res end result is going to be crap. instead of focusing on technologies on listening part, companies can focus on technolgies that will help audio engineers to create better masters. i listen to 60% indian music and 90% of Indian music have very poor recording.


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## CharlyBrown

visanj said:


> on another note I am happy with their 256 kbps apple digital matters. dont feel that i am losing much. but the problem is with mixing/recording. I will prefer good recorded 256 kbps aac over poorly recorded hi-res any day (assuming there are 2 different masters). if the core recording is crap no matter whatever lossless/hi-res end result is going to be crap. instead of focusing on technologies on listening part, companies can focus on technolgies that will help audio engineers to create better masters. i listen to 60% indian music and 90% of Indian music have very poor recording.


I couldn’t agree more. I don’t hear a difference between Apple Music and Tidal MQA. But you can’t say that loud around here


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## kumar402

CharlyBrown said:


> I couldn’t agree more. I don’t hear a difference between Apple Music and Tidal MQA. But you can’t say that loud around here


For certain genre and recordings it doesn’t matter but if the master is well recorded and is good quality then you will be able to enjoy Hi-res


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## originalsnuffy

Most of the time Apple Music AAC is great.   If the music is complex or has high dynamic range you might hear a difference


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## jwbrent

I read on MacRumors today that it appears the transition to lossless is a done deal.


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## PopZeus

The way that rumors site is categorizing the move to lossless is the most ridiculous kind of Apple hype. There just aren’t enough Apple products in the pipeline in order to take advantage of lossless as a company-wide initiative.


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## jwbrent

John Darko’s website is reporting today that hi res may also be included with the anticipated Apple Music change coming as early as the 18th …


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## CharlyBrown

*It’s now official, starting as soon as in June:* Apple Announcement

- Spacial Audio
- Dolby Atmos
- Lossess at now additional costs! (Apple says 20 million songs will be available in Lossless Audio at launch, with the full 75 million songs available by the end of the year.)

W O W! This will give the other services a headache, I think!!

From macrumors:

Apple Music's standard Lossless tier will start at "CD quality," which is 16 bit at 44.1 kHz, and goes up to 24 bit at 48 kHz, according to Apple. Apple Music will also offer Hi-Res Lossless up to 24 bit at 192 kHz.

By default, Apple Music will automatically play Dolby Atmos tracks on all AirPods and Beats headphones with an H1 or W1 chip, as well as the built-in speakers in the latest versions of the iPhone, iPad, and Mac, according to Apple.


Apple Music will be getting new Dolby Atmos tracks constantly and will offer a curated selection of Dolby Atmos playlists, according to Apple. Dolby Atmos albums will have a badge on their detail page for easy discovery.

Spatial Audio and Lossless Audio will be available on iOS 14.6, iPadOS 14.6, macOS 11.4, and tvOS 14.6 or later.


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## CharlyBrown

Add: Lossless seems to work with ANY kind of headphone, connected through external DAC/AMP:

How can I listen to lossless audio?​You can listen to lossless audio using the latest Apple Music app on an iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Apple TV.7 ('https://www.apple.com/apple-music/#footnote-8') Turn on lossless audio in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. You can choose between Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless for cellular or Wi-Fi connections. Note that Hi-Res Lossless requires external equipment such as a USB digital to analog converter.


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## snapandslide (May 17, 2021)

Ooof this seems a bit of a gamechanger - Apple flexing its muscle to provide better quality at no extra cost. Lets see what music selection they have in Lossless and Hi-Res. I'm still in my Qobuz trial, I may stick with them, but I'll certainly give Apple a whirl.

EDIT: Their entire catalogue will be made available in lossless.....


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## PopZeus

Being able to listen to Apple Music lossless on a few Apple devices with tinny speakers is hardly a game changer. Also, how many of their users still have wired headphones to even start to appreciate this feature? After the whole company doing just about everything they could to eliminate wired headphones from their entire ecosystem for half a decade, calling this a game changer is pure hype.


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## snapandslide

PopZeus said:


> Being able to listen to Apple Music lossless on a few Apple devices with tinny speakers is hardly a game changer. Also, how many of their users still have wired headphones to even start to appreciate this feature? After the whole company doing just about everything they could to eliminate wired headphones from their entire ecosystem for half a decade, calling this a game changer is pure hype.


It's a gamechanger in what it is doing - putting pressure on those who rely on the additional revenue. Even Amazon has now relented and offering lossless for no additional cost. Spotify probably would have charged an additional tier, now they simply can't. Even those using Qobuz and Tidal will consider Apple Music for the convenience - remember Apple Music is also available on Android.


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## jwbrent

I wonder what Apple will be charging for hi res, certainly not $10/month I would think.


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## new2mus

Looks like Amazon responded by lowering the price of their Music Unlimited HD to $9.99 (or $7.99 for Prime members). Essentially, HD is now a free upgrade for existing Music Unlimited subscribers.


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## new2mus

jwbrent said:


> I wonder what Apple will be charging for hi res, certainly not $10/month I would think.


Looks like its part of Apple Music for $9.99


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## jamesofla80

Excited to see how it will get implemented. If there will be a noticeable difference between Spatial vs Atmos recorded tracks. Also curious if Spatial will still require to use the iPhone/iPad gyro & accelerometers. Plus, will Apple TV finally support Spatial? Guess we will find out in June!


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## PopZeus

snapandslide said:


> It's a gamechanger in what it is doing - putting pressure on those who rely on the additional revenue. Even Amazon has now relented and offering lossless for no additional cost. Spotify probably would have charged an additional tier, now they simply can't. Even those using Qobuz and Tidal will consider Apple Music for the convenience - remember Apple Music is also available on Android.


I don't see any mention of Android compatibility with Apple Music's lossless tier so far. Just more Apple hardware compatibility. But let's assume that Android version of Apple Music will have all the same features. You're right that this has forced some competition with the other streaming services. But again, is this *really* a game changer or is this just accelerating the inevitable? I tend to think it's the latter. Did people call Disney+'s 4k streaming a "game changer" or was it just old fashioned competition? I just want to actually apply value to these terms beyond how marketing departments try to use them in the moment to sell their wares. Tbf, the AirPods were more of a game changer than I'd like to admit! LOL


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## utdeep

I’m done with Tidal and MQA.  This is a game changer for me.


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## kumar402

Even though it’s not a game changer but nice to have big players coming out with CD quality music at a very competitive price. Not long back we were paying $19.99 for Hi-res on Tidal


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## PopZeus

utdeep said:


> I’m done with Tidal and MQA.  This is a game changer for me.


Ngl, I'm considering dropping Tidal as well. I just want to subscribe to a service that PAYS their artists. I did like that aspect to Tidal. Also the UI is very nice.


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## visanj

I'm using ipod 2019 (7th gen). so does the DAC support 192 khz/24 bit?


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## CANiSLAYu

PopZeus said:


> I don't see any mention of Android compatibility with Apple Music's lossless tier so far. Just more Apple hardware compatibility. But let's assume that Android version of Apple Music will have all the same features. You're right that this has forced some competition with the other streaming services. But again, is this *really* a game changer or is this just accelerating the inevitable? I tend to think it's the latter. Did people call Disney+'s 4k streaming a "game changer" or was it just old fashioned competition? I just want to actually apply value to these terms beyond how marketing departments try to use them in the moment to sell their wares. Tbf, the AirPods were more of a game changer than I'd like to admit! LOL


"Game changer" means a significant shift in the way something was traditionally done.  Apple did just change the game by making lossless available for the same price as "traditional" streaming.  Previously lossless was at a premium price point if the service even had it available in the first place.  Now consumer expectation will be that high resolution should be included at no cost.  Amazon clearly seems to agree since they just changed their pricing structure in response.  Now we'll see what Tidal, Qobuz, etc. do.  Tidal's previous move last month looks ridiculous in hindsight now as they're looking to add an extra service tier slotted between standard and their previous premium offering.

This is the same thing Apple did with charging the same price for 4K movies and retroactively upgrading previous purchases to 4K.  Previously retailers like Vudu, etc. were charging higher prices for 4K vs HD/SD, now they're the same price and consumers don't expect to pay more for 4K.

I think what you're speaking towards is "revolutionary."  Is Apple Music lossless revolutionary?  Certainly not, but the way they're doing it does "change the game" for streaming services.  High Res is no longer a USP or worthy of an upcharge; Apple just made it an expectation.


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## CANiSLAYu

visanj said:


> I'm using ipod 2019 (7th gen). so does the DAC support 192 khz/24 bit?


iOS is capped at 24/48 without an external DAC.


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## phixion

PopZeus said:


> Being able to listen to Apple Music lossless on a few Apple devices with tinny speakers is hardly a game changer. Also, how many of their users still have wired headphones to even start to appreciate this feature? After the whole company doing just about everything they could to eliminate wired headphones from their entire ecosystem for half a decade, calling this a game changer is pure hype.


Oh come on!

This is a game changer for those of us who love music and appreciate the highest quality available.

Who cares what the "average Joe" is doing with their bluetooth headphones? Lossless music for no additional fee is huge.

I will most likely stick to AAC for mobile listening as I tend to use Bluetooth anyway. For home listening I will be using Lossless.


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## PopZeus (May 17, 2021)

I'm glad you guys are psyched for cheaper lossless. I really am. I'm mildly hyped as well. But price reductions are not a game changer. They're merely an app changer, and only if the other streaming services don't lower their prices to compete! LOL Will this mean less money to the artists?

This comment is more directed to the tech sector in general, and I know it's a semantic argument, but we need to expect more from terms like innovation and "game changer". Again, a price cut was inevitable. This is all marketing terms anyways, and I'd rather keep some amount of distance between me and the hype. Carry on.


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## redrol

High res is mostly a scam anyhow.  Very very little of it actually has extra high frequency information encoded.   As far as streaming FLAC.. don't care.  Real audiophiles collect music.


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## CharlyBrown

PopZeus said:


> Being able to listen to Apple Music lossless on a few Apple devices with tinny speakers is hardly a game changer. Also, how many of their users still have wired headphones to even start to appreciate this feature? After the whole company doing just about everything they could to eliminate wired headphones from their entire ecosystem for half a decade, calling this a game changer is pure hype.


Quoting my own answer:
How can I listen to lossless audio?​You can listen to lossless audio using the latest Apple Music app on an iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Apple TV.7 ('https://www.apple.com/apple-music/#footnote-8') Turn on lossless audio in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. You can choose between Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless for cellular or Wi-Fi connections. *Note that Hi-Res Lossless requires external equipment such as a USB digital to analog converter.

It is NOT limited to Apple headphones, you can use everything through an external DAC/AMP. Not sure about Android at the moment and DAPs but I bet, they will also work.*




jwbrent said:


> I wonder what Apple will be charging for hi res, certainly not $10/month I would think.



True, it is 9.99$


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## kumar402

CharlyBrown said:


> Quoting my own answer:
> How can I listen to lossless audio?​You can listen to lossless audio using the latest Apple Music app on an iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Apple TV.7 ('https://www.apple.com/apple-music/#footnote-8') Turn on lossless audio in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. You can choose between Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless for cellular or Wi-Fi connections. *Note that Hi-Res Lossless requires external equipment such as a USB digital to analog converter.
> 
> It is NOT limited to Apple headphones, you can use everything through an external DAC/AMP. Not sure about Android at the moment and DAPs but I bet, they will also work.*
> ...


Question remains over wireless streaming as Airplay can support till 24/48KHz. So CD quality will work but not sure about their plan for Hi-res


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## kumar402

redrol said:


> High res is mostly a scam anyhow.  Very very little of it actually has extra high frequency information encoded.   As far as streaming FLAC.. don't care.  Real audiophiles collect music.


Who says Real Audiophiles collect music ?
Real Audiophiles listen to music. Just to put it in perspective Apple Music in India is available for $1/month. To be able to stream CD quality music for $1/month is a big thing considering Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors  CD here will cost me close to $30~40 to own


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## PopZeus (May 17, 2021)

CharlyBrown said:


> Quoting my own answer:
> How can I listen to lossless audio?​You can listen to lossless audio using the latest Apple Music app on an iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Apple TV.7 ('https://www.apple.com/apple-music/#footnote-8') Turn on lossless audio in Settings > Music > Audio Quality. You can choose between Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless for cellular or Wi-Fi connections. *Note that Hi-Res Lossless requires external equipment such as a USB digital to analog converter.
> 
> It is NOT limited to Apple headphones, you can use everything through an external DAC/AMP. Not sure about Android at the moment and DAPs but I bet, they will also work.*


Never said it was limited to only Apple headphones. But how many of the Apple faithful have external USB DACs vs how many of them use AirPods everyday, all the time? Most basic users who are content with the iPhone pack-in earbuds prolly can't hear the difference between AAC and lossless. Most importantly, Apple has been beating the "you don't need wires" drum for 5 years, and they've sold a ton of airpods for that effort. Now you're telling me that the deliberately cumbersome approach to hi-fi computer audio that Apple has currently adopted for 3rd party hardware is now compatible with Apple Music? I mean, that's cool, but is that a big deal? Maybe that's not your (or anyone else's) point, but when people throw around hype terms like "game changer" I can't help but think the intent is I'm supposed to be impressed, when all I see is Apple needing to pad out their bottom line with more subs to hit quarterly revenue goals. The incentives are all commonplace and unremarkable.

I'm a big Apple geek. I WANT them to jump into hifi audio. Been hoping for that since that first click wheel iPod was released. I think Apple is in a unique position to single-handedly disrupt the DAP market with a truly great audio iPod Touch IF THEY WANTED TO. I just feel as a music listener, me moving a sub to a cheaper service is a low bar for innovation or "changing the game". Now of they were to be fully transparent about royalties and reimbursing artists, then I'd be more willing to say the game was changing. I don't need to be subsidizing Joe Rogan's overpriced contract with Spotify.


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## RamGuy

I love good sound. I'm not an audiophile but I have some half-decent setups with my Shure SE846, my Hegel HD12 DAC+Schiit Magnius running fully balanced using a balanced cable to my Sennheiser HD800S and whatnot.

But I have such a hard time believing people can actually tell the difference between a good encode and lossless coming from the same master. I have yet to see any trustworthy evidence that is showing anything other than ~200 kbps VBR being transparent to pretty much 99% of all people out there. Obviously, some will be more invested than others and might train themselves to hear slight differences and young people will simply have better hearing compared to older people. Doesn't our hearing start to degrade from puberty or something around that time? And it just gets worse by the day from there. So the younger and less likely you are to have a decent setup the more likely you are to actually be able to have the hearing capability to tell the details apart.

I've been through a bunch of equipment over the years. I have never gone full crazy, but I do think my current setup using Hegel HD12, Schiit Magnius and Sennheiser HD800S are quite expensive and I enjoy it a lot. But when I sit down with Tidal HiFi, Qobuz, Apple Music and some Blu-Rays I most certainly can't tell them apart. And in scenarios I can tell them apart, it seems to be down to the master that is begin used and not because of it being 24-bit vs 16-bit, 192kHz vs 44.1kHz or lossless vs lossy. If I find the version from Tidal sounding the best I start comparing Tidals Master version with their own AAC version and those I can't tell apart so it's most likely due to me enjoying the master that Tidal got better than whatever master Apple got etc.


With that said I don't mind getting access to 24-bit, 192kHz, lossless for free. Which this basically is. I will obviously toggle the highest settings available. Why wouldn't I? I might not be able to tell them apart in comparison but the additional bandwidth doesn't cost me anything and if it's not hidden behind a higher tier pricing there is no reason for me not toggle this quality.

I have no issues with Apple going all-in on wireless. Why wouldn't they? All things point to barely anyone being capable of telling 24-bit, 192kHz apart from 16-bit, 44.1kHz apart. And everything points to Apple's use of 256 kbps AAC to be transparent to the vast majority of people in the world. As long as Apple is able to achieve transparent encodings at 256 kbps AAC and being able to use Bluetooth AAC to transmit this wirelessly it makes perfect sense for a consumer company to focus on wireless which brings a ton of added convenience to the users. Instead of focusing on what is pretty much snake oil and placebo that barely anyone will really be able truly to appreciate.


I hate to admit it myself. But after I got myself Apple's AirPods Pro my Shure SE846 is seeing far less usage. They do sound better, there is no denying that. But the pure convenience of the AirPods Pro is just more important way more often than not. And I got myself the Apple AirPods Max as well. They sure don't match my setup with Sennheiser HD800S but they do sound great for closed-back wireless headphones with great ANC. Unless I'm going to sit down and do some really focused listening I find myself using the AirPods Max in pretty much any scenario.

I'm not sure how this will benefit the AirPods Max. Apple is not able to do ALAC over Bluetooth. And I'm not sure how Apple is doing Bluetooth AAC? I'm sure they are applying some transcoding algorithm that is trying to affect the 256 kbps AAC as little as possible during Bluetooth AAC transmission but I don't think they are able to do it in any bit-perfect manner? So even though I'm not able to achieve Apple Lossless playback on the AirPods Max opting for using Apple Lossless should still improve the chain as instead of having an already lossy 256 kbps AAC source being transcoded using lossy AAC transmission over Bluetooth I would instead have lossless ALAC file being transcoded using lossy AAC for transmission.

The question is if Apple's use of on-the-fly AAC transcoding will be having a harder time maintaining the same level of quality for the transmission when being fed an ALAC source compared to an already encoded AAC source. Obviously, Apple's in-house encoding resulting in the 256 kbps AAC files available on Apple Music is going through a much better encoding process compared to whatever my iPhone is doing when tossing the ALAC file into Bluetooth AAC transmission. The question is if going lossless into lossy transmission will be better than doing the lossy into the lossy transmission.


----------



## CharlyBrown

I don’t know if it is really important honestly, and I am repeating myself on head-FI, but I bet only few (if any) can hear a difference between classic Apple 256kbit/s stream and Tidal Master when both come from the same source and are A/B double-blind tested, volume matched etc.

But it will appeal to the audiophile crowd and we can all use Apple Music with the good feeling that we get the best without sacrifices. At no additional cost. And all the others have to follow - see Amazon HD, which lowers their pricing _today_.

Good for all of us. 

Spacial Audio could be cool (it is a gamechanger for movies), could be a gimmick for audio. We will see. Still it is cool and I am looking forward trying it with my AirPods. Maybe I will even buy the AirPods Max now. Apple is smart!


----------



## InvisibleInk

RamGuy said:


> With that said I don't mind getting access to 24-bit, 192kHz, lossless for free. Which this basically is. I will obviously toggle the highest settings available. Why wouldn't I? I might not be able to tell them apart in comparison but the additional bandwidth doesn't cost me anything and if it's not hidden behind a higher tier pricing there is no reason for me not toggle this quality.



I guess we better trim our inner ears hair closely before listening to 24/192 tracks.


----------



## torifile

The big question is whether the Android-based DAPs that can run Apple Music will take advantage of the new lossless audio. If so, that is a big win for those devices.


----------



## rlw6534

torifile said:


> The big question is whether the Android-based DAPs that can run Apple Music will take advantage of the new lossless audio. If so, that is a big win for those devices.



Hehe.  That would be strange, Android devices playing higher quality Apple Music than Apple hardware.   I have to wonder if Apple will actually let that happen.


----------



## Finger Fish

Does anyone know if we'll be able to disable Dolby Atmos and Spatial Audio? I can't stand Dolby Atmos and want it off 100%. If we can't do that I'll probably just stick with Deezer.


----------



## torifile

rlw6534 said:


> Hehe.  That would be strange, Android devices playing higher quality Apple Music than Apple hardware.   I have to wonder if Apple will actually let that happen.


Well one of the clues this was happening at all was found in the android version of Apple Music.


----------



## torifile

Finger Fish said:


> Does anyone know if we'll be able to disable Dolby Atmos and Spatial Audio? I can't stand Dolby Atmos and want it off 100%. If we can't do that I'll probably just stick with Deezer.


I don’t know for sure but there definitely is a setting to turn them off for the AirPods Pro and max so I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be.


----------



## Finger Fish

torifile said:


> I don’t know for sure but there definitely is a setting to turn them off for the AirPods Pro and max so I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be.


Hope so. I just use my Blessing 2 wired. Can't stand bluetooth.


----------



## cj3209

visanj said:


> The problem is how they are going to achieve this. iPhones don't have headphone jack. so the only option is bluetooth and right now they support only AAC codec. So unless apple comes with some proprietary bluetooth codec for ALAC, this is not authentic news. I don't think Apple is so dumb to introduce lossless music service with iphones supporting only AAC bluetooth codec


I don't use my phone to listen to hi-res files.  I use ROON on my desktop DAC or ROON on my DAP.  Listening to hi-res via BT isn't quite there yet although LDAC sounds pretty good but still not as good as my wired options.  I currently have all three streaming services to get the music I want.  If I can effectively replace Tidal and Qobuz with Apple's enormous catalog - I'm SOLD.


----------



## utdeep

Hi!  Let me help you with this.  Game changer is a relative term.  What changes the game for me doesn't necessarily change the game for you.  I don't know you and I could care less if you were impressed by this. 

Here’s why I like it and why it gets me from 2.99 a month with Apple to $29.99 a month for their Apple One Premiere subscription:
- Apple Fitness Plus is good.  Might be the best virtual option I’ve used in the Pandemic.  Was considering the $79 yearly sub
- Neither Spotify or Tidal have a real offline option for the Apple Watch
- 2TB of iCloud storage is pretty good and an upgrade from $2.99 for 200GB
- Lossless Music for 5 members of my family (including a separate account for my Alexa)
- Apple TV is not terrible.  I’ve enjoyed Ted Lasso and my kids love the Helpsters.  I wouldn’t pick it over any other service but will take it for free with the package

Everything just works with Apple and they continue to provide value for this ecosystem of services and products.  We can pretend that the average Apple user won’t see the benefits of the lossless codec, but you’re ignoring a large swath of customers with tons of cash who spend money on Sonos systems and run Roon with their esoteric dac/amps and high-end headphones.


----------



## PopZeus (May 17, 2021)

I don't know if you're trying to respond to me or not @utdeep since you didn't quote me, but if you COULDN'T care less if I'm impressed, then why are you posting? Also, I'm not "pretending" anything. If you can prove to me that wireless headphones are less popular with Apple users than wired (or that cheapo TWS earbuds are less popular than ROON-ready or SONOS connect hi-fi setups), I'll happily concede the point. But there's so much anecdotal evidence to support my theory. I don't think I'm saying anything out of turn here.

For the record, I wanna point out that you're basically saying because Apple is Apple, when they do something it's a game changer. Yeah, it's your prerogative to call it that but it's also fine for me to call "sus" on the fact that you're just repeating Apple's core value prop that they've had for a better part of a decade and saying it's a game changer because they lowered their price to compete with the big boys. I'll probably end up switching over too, since I use Apple products almost exclusively, To be absolutely clear, I can see the benefits. And I might end up agreeing with once I try it out (and Apple matures their service). But whatever. If you really think Apple "changed the game", my snarky retort would be "then it wasn't much of a game to begin with".

apologies for all the editing. i'm trying to be nice about disagreements. Too much toxicity online and I don't want to contribute.


----------



## torifile (May 17, 2021)

@PopZeus It becomes a game when Apple decides to play in it. That’s how it’s always been. To say anything like Apple is trying “to compete with the big boys” is absurd. Apple *is* the big boy in every domain it plays in. It’s just coming to the game now. When it enters the field, it legitimizes it. That’s just how tech works.

Will Apple do it better than the others? Who knows, but the game’s on now. That’s a *good* thing for us audiophiles.


----------



## PopZeus (May 17, 2021)

torifile said:


> @PopZeus It becomes a game when Apple decides to play in it. That’s how it’s always been. To say anything like Apple is trying “to compete with the big boys” is absurd. Apple *is* the big boy in every domain it plays in. It’s just coming to the game now. When it enters the field, it legitimizes it. That’s just how tech works.
> 
> Will Apple do it better than the others? Who knows, but the game’s on now. That’s a *good* thing for us audiophiles.


Yeah that’s a fair point. The big boys have a lot more subscribers than Apple, regardless of Cupertino’s deep pockets but Apple can compete if they want to. I definitely would say that the key though. Apple’s commitment matters if they stick will around in a product space long enough to really end up changing things or not. They’re perfectly happy to be a niche player sometimes, even though, you’re right, it’s Apple and they’re huge. I mean, Apple TV is great but it’s less popular because it’s so expensive compared to other streaming devices. I don’t think that’s gonna change soon. And anyone who’s used an Apple mouse knows they can really botch simple things. But since Apple Music is so closely tied to the iPhone, which is their best selling device by far, I’m a little hesitant to proclaim some seismic shift in the streaming “wars” right away. Though you may be right that this is the start of something.


----------



## torifile (May 17, 2021)

PopZeus said:


> Yeah that’s a fair point. The big boys have a lot more subscribers than Apple, regardless of Cupertino’s deep pockets. I definitely would say though that Apple’s commitment matters if they stick will around in a product space long enough to really end up changing things or not. They’re perfectly happy to be a niche player sometimes, even though, you’re right, it’s Apple and they’re huge. I mean, Apple TV is great but it’s less popular because it’s so expensive compared to other streaming devices. I don’t think that’s gonna change soon. And anyone who’s used an Apple mouse knows they can really botch simple things. But since Apple Music is so closely tied to the iPhone, which is their best selling device by far, I’m a little hesitant to proclaim some seismic shift in the streaming “wars” right away. Though you may be right that this is the start of something.


Let's put Apple TV+ aside for a moment since it's still very young and its catalog isn't great relative to the competition.

The mouse isn't a good analogy because it's not a product they try to sell as its own unit. Sure, you can buy one, but they don't promote it on its own.

AirPods - there were wireless earbuds before them but nothing like them in terms of success. They also changed the industry and began acceptance of spending triple digits for headphones.

Apple Watch - wearables existed before them. Fitbit was a niche product but had a following. Now? It's pretty much only Apple Watch unless you want something more like a Garmin (I've got both).

iPad - there was zero market for tablets before it and aside from it, there's zero market for tablets now. There was a period where android tablets seemed to be making headway but that's a thing of the past.

iPhone - I don't know how old you are but if you're my age, you remember what the cellphone market was like before it. There was a marked sea change both in design and sale of cellphones after it was introduced. It's easily the most consequential product of the century.

iTunes, the predecessor to Apple Music. This one goes further back than the iPhone. Before it, the music industry was having its lunch handed to it. After it, everything changed. Its success is the reason the video market has stood so staunchly opposed to Apple's entry - they saw how dominant they were in music and didn't want a repeat.

iPod - "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.” Famous words in response to the release of the iPod in 2001. I don't think there's any reason to go into its history here.

In every one of these situations, Apple didn't invent the idea. There were cellphones before the iPhone, tablets before the iPad, online music services before iTunes and MP3 players before the iPod. In every one, those earlier entrants are only remembered by us tech geeks.

Apple's presence in a market *validates* it. Again, we audiophiles should be _thrilled_ to see Apple make this move. I was wondering what they were planning on doing with the AirPods Max and now it seems clear they are in it for the long haul.

(The only missteps I see are the HomePod (which is a great speaker system that is hobbled by Siri's reputation) and the iPod Hifi. Everything else I can remember, well, speaks for itself.)


----------



## CharlyBrown

Latest News, Apple Music Losless *will not work with AirPods *(none of them). Not even with AirPods Max via Lightning. 

Good news for us wired headphone users: It will work with external DAC/AMP combo.

From macrumors:

Apple told The Verge that when a 24-bit/48 kHz Apple Music lossless track is played to an iPhoneinto the ‌AirPods Max‌ using a Lightning cable and a Lightning-to-3.5mm dongle, the audio is converted to analog and then re-digitized to 24-bit/48 kHz. The re-digitization is not an identical match to the source and Apple is not able to say that it's lossless audio.

Listening to lossless audio on an iOS device will require wired headphones compatible with the ALAC format, and possibly a digital to analog converter. That the $549 ‌AirPods Max‌ do not work with Apple lossless is sure to upset some fans, but there is debate about whether most people can even tell the difference between standard and lossless audio formats.


----------



## utdeep

I really like the services side at this point.  My guess is that the the Apple One Premiere (which bundles Apple Music for a family of 5 along with other services) will continue to get better and better over time and force more people into the Apple ecosystem.


----------



## mammal

utdeep said:


> I really like the services side at this point. My guess is that the the Apple One Premiere (which bundles Apple Music for a family of 5 along with other services) will continue to get better and better over time and force more people into the Apple ecosystem.


Oh I remember then Apple sucked at service offerings, remember their email solution at me.com? It never worked, but they came a long way since then. More and more services added and bundled together, for a whole family to enjoy, nice way to lock me in.


----------



## RamGuy

Hardly a surprise to anyone who knows how audio stream works. The chain goes from digital-to-analogue, analogue-to-digital, digital-to-analogue when using the minijack to lightning cable connected to the AirPods Max.

The AirPods Max have digital inputs only. When you are using minijack which is analogue, to lightning which is digital-only between your device and the AirPods Max there is obviously an ADC in the chain. This ADC seems to be very limited and will not support Apple Lossless Hi-Res as it's doing 24-bit/48kHz only.

This sure does make Apple look rather foolish. I suspect the reason for AirPods Max to not feature any analogue inputs is because of its computational audio/DSP. Apple doesn't want the AirPods Max to be utilised without its computational audio taking place (which is basically just a very fancy DSP) and by offering analogue input there is no way for Apple to engage this part of the headphones without sticking both an ADC and DAC within them.

This is what happens when you use headphones like the Bose NC 700 or Bose QC35 using cable instead of wireless. You bypass the internal DAC and DSP and their tuning has been done with this DAC and its DSP in mind so they tend to sound worse using cable compared to wireless as a result of this. Apple is bypassing this scenario entirely by making the AirPods Max digital-only.

I have no issue with this. I would go as far as to claim that if you purchase the AirPods Max only to use them with analogue input you are purchasing the wrong product. They are clearly created with its heavy emphasis on computational audio/DSP in mind. If you are going to bypass this then you should be looking at a different pair of headphones. The fact that Apple sells the minijack to lightning cable is simply an optional accessory for those who might need to use a cable in certain scenarios for whatever reason. It was never meant to offer you analogue input.


It sure does make Apple look rather silly when announcing Apple Lossless and Apple Lossless Hi-Res as you won't be able to fully utilise it within their own native and integrated ecosystem. Which brings up the question, why do they even implement it in the first place? I don't think it really matters. 24-bit/192kHz is pretty much snake oil. Even 16-bit/44.1kHz lossless vs 16-bit/44.1kHz lossy 256 kbps AAC has proven to be transparent in pretty much every scenario. It's not like you are missing out on anything. Even if you were able to feed your AirPods Max or HomePod with 24-bit, 192kHz lossless it wouldn't provide you with any better audio compared to what you are already getting.

Seems like Apple is simply introducing it to bring added competition to the marketplace. They see no benefit in actually using it. But by providing it for no additional cost they give those special snowflakes that are telling themselves they need 24-bit/192kHz lossless to fully enjoy their music one less reason to chose another service instead of Apple Music.


----------



## mammal

RamGuy said:


> I have no issue with this. I would go as far as to claim that if you purchase the AirPods Max only to use them with analogue input you are purchasing the wrong product. They are clearly created with its heavy emphasis on computational audio/DSP in mind. If you are going to bypass this then you should be looking at a different pair of headphones. The fact that Apple sells the minijack to lightning cable is simply an optional accessory for those who might need to use a cable in certain scenarios for whatever reason. It was never meant to offer you analogue input.


Oh yes for sure, Apple has definitely spent some crazy man hours on implementing their DSP, to support all they want (ANC, Spatial Audio, Transparency mode). Most likely, if they offered analog input, this would go out of the window for them, or as you said, would need to include ADC in the jack itself. Why did they include a jack at all (even if digital)? I think it's because of a convenience, when you want to plug it to something (like a game controller) where you can't use Bluetooth, or it would have too much delay.



RamGuy said:


> Seems like Apple is simply introducing it to bring added competition to the marketplace. They see no benefit in actually using it. But by providing it for no additional cost they give those special snowflakes that are telling themselves they need 24-bit/192kHz lossless to fully enjoy their music one less reason to chose another service instead of Apple Music.


Well, the market keeps asking for Hi-Res, for some reason. Any time I try to ABX, I fail miserably. And it does not matter if I use my TOTL setup, or what majority of listeners have (basic Airpods). What I like about CD quality, even if I am not able to discern a difference, is that it gives me psychological warm blanket that I am listening to what the studio created, not some water down lossy version (again, totally psychological, I will be the first one to admit it).


RamGuy said:


> It sure does make Apple look rather silly when announcing Apple Lossless and Apple Lossless Hi-Res as you won't be able to fully utilise it within their own native and integrated ecosystem. Which brings up the question, why do they even implement it in the first place?


I think we will eventually see either Bluetooth revision, or some sort of WiFi streaming, so that APM can benefit from true high res. Currently, Airplay 2 supports only CD quality, so even their own streaming isn't Hi-Res, just lossless. Maybe a new revision coming down the road.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Another update: Dolby Atmos / Spatial Audio will not be available on the Android version of Apple Music at start. Makes sense, as the AirPods don’t offer all features on Android devices like phones or DAPs.

Lossless streaming, on the other hand, will be available also on Android from Day1!

Macrumors:

It's not clear exactly why Dolby Atmos won't be available for ‌Apple Music‌ users on Android when it launches, but it could be due to the lack of control Apple has over the handset and tablet hardware used, or perhaps rollout could come later. On the flip side, however, the higher quality Lossless audio streaming tier that Apple announced this week will be available on Apple Music for Android.


----------



## torifile

CharlyBrown said:


> Another update: Dolby Atmos / Spatial Audio will not be available on the Android version of Apple Music at start. Makes sense, as the AirPods don’t offer all features on Android devices like phones or DAPs.
> 
> Lossless streaming, on the other hand, will be available also on Android from Day1!
> 
> ...


Just when I was settled on the WM1A as my DAP…


----------



## visanj

any idea from when new apple music will be available? I mean date


----------



## CharlyBrown

No, just June was mentioned.


----------



## InvisibleInk

torifile said:


> Just when I was settled on the WM1A as my DAP…



Good choice!


----------



## myromeo

CharlyBrown said:


> Another update: Dolby Atmos / Spatial Audio will not be available on the Android version of Apple Music at start. Makes sense, as the AirPods don’t offer all features on Android devices like phones or DAPs.
> 
> Lossless streaming, on the other hand, will be available also on Android from Day1!
> 
> ...


I wonder if Apple will be able to use direct mode on those android devices that support it, bypassing androids handling of the audio to give hit perfect playback in the same way UAPP does. They’re certainly capable of it, I wonder if they’ll chose to do it tho.


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> I wonder if Apple will be able to use direct mode on those android devices that support it, bypassing androids handling of the audio to give hit perfect playback in the same way UAPP does. They’re certainly capable of it, I wonder if they’ll chose to do it tho.



If they do, then Android devices will be able to do what no Apple device can, currently.   That doesn't really sound like something Apple would do, but we can hope.  Can you imagine the news stories: "Android phones play Apple Music better than iPhones"....


----------



## Finger Fish

myromeo said:


> I wonder if Apple will be able to use direct mode on those android devices that support it, bypassing androids handling of the audio to give hit perfect playback in the same way UAPP does. They’re certainly capable of it, I wonder if they’ll chose to do it tho.


How does bypassing the Android audio system work exactly? I'm looking at finally switching to Android from IOS (from an iPhone X to the Sony Xperia 1 III) does using the headphone jack on the phone still get sampled? I use Deezer do UAPP is kinda useless. 

Am I going to basically have to suffer with worse audio quality than my iPhone? I just wanna switch over before Apple goes portless, as I refuse to use bluetooth.


----------



## visanj

rlw6534 said:


> If they do, then Android devices will be able to do what no Apple device can, currently.   That doesn't really sound like something Apple would do, but we can hope.  Can you imagine the news stories: "Android phones play Apple Music better than iPhones"....



Can you compare sound quality between apple music and uapp? I am using Oneplus 6. I purchased a song from itunes and then played it via UAPP (using direct mode) and I played the same song in Apple Music. I felt the sound quality in Apple music is same as UAPP if not better. But I'm not sure if Apple Music is using direct mode

Another difference I noticed is, If I change equalizer in Oneplus 6 Audio Tuner options I can notice considerable difference in sound signature in UAPP, Spotify, Youtube Music but very subtle difference in Apple Music. Does this indicate anything?


----------



## Crowbar44 (May 19, 2021)

So I just checked my Amazon HD account - and it's now $9.99 a month ($14.99 for the family plan).

Funny - I love the Amazon catalog, especially their classical, but I find the PC UI and suggestions are just mediocre.  I *almost* signed up for a Tidal free trial yesterday, with plans to jump ship...glad I didn't!

Now, if Amazon gets to work and really improves the UI and the suggestions on their Windows App, I'll stay forever.  But I will definitely be demoing Apple Music and Spotify HiFi when their lossless products hit.  Exciting times!


----------



## Currawong

This probably covers things people have been wondering already, but here's my list of questions about what Apple are offering:


----------



## rlw6534

So I guess I need to start thinking about an iPhone compatible DAC dongle that supports 24/192.   MQA would be nice as well (still using Tidal for now).  Any suggestions to investigate?  I know that Dragonfly DACs top out at 24/96 so not quite there.


----------



## InvisibleInk

rlw6534 said:


> So I guess I need to start thinking about an iPhone compatible DAC dongle that supports 24/192.   MQA would be nice as well (still using Tidal for now).  Any suggestions to investigate?  I know that Dragonfly DACs top out at 24/96 so not quite there.



Did you notice your post count? The Devil has possessed your mind!


----------



## rlw6534

InvisibleInk said:


> Did you notice your post count? The Devil has possessed your mind!


Nope, I didn't notice, but I can fix it right now...  👿


----------



## PetZoundz

rlw6534 said:


> So I guess I need to start thinking about an iPhone compatible DAC dongle that supports 24/192.   MQA would be nice as well (still using Tidal for now).  Any suggestions to investigate?  I know that Dragonfly DACs top out at 24/96 so not quite there.


Zorloo Ztella checks all your boxes, also does DSD. There is a lighting version, but it never worked for me, so I plug it into the CCK, and then into my iPhone.


----------



## rlw6534

PetZoundz said:


> Zorloo Ztella checks all your boxes, also does DSD. There is a lighting version, but it never worked for me, so I plug it into the CCK, and then into my iPhone.



Thanks.  I'll check it out.


----------



## CharlyBrown

I can recommend the Hidizs S9. This thing is a beast. I am using it on my iPhone and I think it sounds even better than my SE200. This thing is a miracle, really.


----------



## myromeo

For those asking about direct mode and how it works, here is how it works on the Sony NW-A105 courtesy of a Sony engineer (found somewhere online sorry I didn’t note the source).

Apple Music on android absolutely does not use direct mode, the giveaway is if I reduce media volume I lose Apple Music playback. On the Walkman UAPP/Walkman apps are noticeably better than Apple Music.

this graphic shows the direct route in red and indirect / android route in purple. 

I’m not a software engineer so don’t understand exactly how UAPP goes direct but believe it’s something to do with audio stream flags. Same for MQA, DSD etc, where supported.

note on Sony Walkman you can choose in system to use high res streaming in which case all purple audio channels are upscalled to 32bit 192khz. This still goes via the android path tho. There is a noticeable audio benefit to going direct, IMO opinion it’s is much clearer with a  wider soundstage. Hope this is interesting to some other geek and not just me


----------



## snapandslide

rlw6534 said:


> So I guess I need to start thinking about an iPhone compatible DAC dongle that supports 24/192.   MQA would be nice as well (still using Tidal for now).  Any suggestions to investigate?  I know that Dragonfly DACs top out at 24/96 so not quite there.


L&P W2? Pretty sure it supports 24/192 (tho finding that quality even on qobuz is really rare).


----------



## rlw6534

snapandslide said:


> L&P W2? Pretty sure it supports 24/192 (tho finding that quality even on qobuz is really rare).



Yeah, I was looking at that as well as the Lotoo PAW S1, among others.  I did not realize there were so many out there.  I've been mainly in the DAP world lately.

Wonder if Apple will release a lightning to 3.5 mm adapter with 24/192 support in the near future?   That would kinda make sense.


----------



## snapandslide

rlw6534 said:


> Yeah, I was looking at that as well as the Lotoo PAW S1, among others.  I did not realize there were so many out there.  I've been mainly in the DAP world lately.
> 
> Wonder if Apple will release a lightning to 3.5 mm adapter with 24/192 support in the near future?   That would kinda make sense.


Yea the dongle market as definitely blown up! I dunno if Apple will - it targets such a small market and goes against their philosophy of going all wireless. But who knows if having lossless tempts them to try selling something.


----------



## Finger Fish

myromeo said:


> For those asking about direct mode and how it works, here is how it works on the Sony NW-A105 courtesy of a Sony engineer (found somewhere online sorry I didn’t note the source).
> 
> Apple Music on android absolutely does not use direct mode, the giveaway is if I reduce media volume I lose Apple Music playback. On the Walkman UAPP/Walkman apps are noticeably better than Apple Music.
> 
> ...


So I should probably just stick with iPhones for the best native sound quality? UAPP is awful and I can't stand it. Plus I can't have Apple music or Deezer go through it. Or can you really hear the difference practically.


----------



## roach7

rlw6534 said:


> So I guess I need to start thinking about an iPhone compatible DAC dongle that supports 24/192.   MQA would be nice as well (still using Tidal for now).  Any suggestions to investigate?  I know that Dragonfly DACs top out at 24/96 so not quite there.


if you're looking for a dongle the thx/razer onyx might fit the bill; goes up to 32/384


----------



## myromeo (May 19, 2021)

Finger Fish said:


> So I should probably just stick with iPhones for the best native sound quality? UAPP is awful and I can't stand it. Plus I can't have Apple music or Deezer go through it. Or can you really hear the difference practically.


I prefer how UAPP sounds for local files and Tidal streaming over Apple Music but I’m itching to hear what improvements Apple are about to bring. I’m hoping the Apple lightning to 3.5mm adapter is up to the job. Lots of mixed info online regarding its capabilities. Some say 24/192 others say downsamples everything to 24/48. I think the wife will murder me if I buy a dedicated DAC to use with the iPhone too. She already thinks I’m insane.

as a side note Apple Music IMO has by far the best UI of all the major music services and fantastic algorithms for discovering new stuff. UAPP is clunky and Tidal’s suggestions are terrible


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> I prefer how UAPP sounds for local files and Tidal streaming over Apple Music but I’m itching to hear what improvements Apple are about to bring. I’m hoping the Apple lightning to 3.5mm adapter is up to the job. Lots of mixed info online regarding its capabilities. Some say 24/192 others say downsamples everything to 24/48. I think the wife will murder me if I buy a dedicated DAC to use with the iPhone too. She already thinks I’m insane.
> 
> as a side note Apple Music IMO has by far the best UI of all the major music services and fantastic algorithms for discovering new stuff. UAPP is clunky and Tidal’s suggestions are terrible



I trying to find my Apple lightning to 3.5 adapter to see if I can figure out it's capabilities.  I suspect it's 24/48.


----------



## Finger Fish

myromeo said:


> I prefer how UAPP sounds for local files and Tidal streaming over Apple Music but I’m itching to hear what improvements Apple are about to bring. I’m hoping the Apple lightning to 3.5mm adapter is up to the job. Lots of mixed info online regarding its capabilities. Some say 24/192 others say downsamples everything to 24/48. I think the wife will murder me if I buy a dedicated DAC to use with the iPhone too. She already thinks I’m insane.
> 
> as a side note Apple Music IMO has by far the best UI of all the major music services and fantastic algorithms for discovering new stuff. UAPP is clunky and Tidal’s suggestions are terrible


Maybe I'll see how the 13 Pro Max is. As long as it still has a lightning port, maybe I'll pick one up, and use it for the next 4-5 years like my X. And evaluate what to do after those 5 or so years. When it comes to OS I actually heavily dislike both IOS and Android. They both have their pros, but the cons on each one drive me to not want either one, so sticking with IOS wouldn't matter to me. I just want my god damn lightning port for wired earphones.


----------



## A Jedi

Anyone know if Apple Music has UPnP abilities? I need to be able to stream to a Pi box.


----------



## mammal (May 19, 2021)

A Jedi said:


> Anyone know if Apple Music has UPnP abilities? I need to be able to stream to a Pi box.


Not as far as I am aware

EDIT: If you want to stream from iOS/Mac, you can install shairport-sync on your Raspberry Pi, to receive Airplay over network.


----------



## A Jedi

mammal said:


> Not as far as I am aware
> 
> EDIT: If you want to stream from iOS/Mac, you can install shairport-sync on your Raspberry Pi, to receive Airplay over network.



Thanks. I can use shairport via Volumio (running on the Pi). What sort of resolution is that capable of?


----------



## mammal

A Jedi said:


> Thanks. I can use shairport via Volumio (running on the Pi). What sort of resolution is that capable of?


Airplay supports CD quality, so 16-bit 44.1 kHz


----------



## A Jedi

mammal said:


> Airplay supports CD quality, so 16-bit 44.1 kHz



This is unfortunate. I don't mind 16/44 but I don't want higher res stuff getting resampled. Dang it.


----------



## InvisibleInk

A Jedi said:


> This is unfortunate. I don't mind 16/44 but I don't want higher res stuff getting resampled. Dang it.


Airplay is faster than any Bluetooth. So full speed is good, but limited to the LAN.


----------



## rlw6534

rlw6534 said:


> I trying to find my Apple lightning to 3.5 adapter to see if I can figure out it's capabilities.  I suspect it's 24/48.



So I found the Apple lightning to 3.5 mm adapter.  Both Roon and Amazon music are reporting 24/48 as the device capabilities.


----------



## InvisibleInk

rlw6534 said:


> So I found the Apple lightning to 3.5 mm adapter.  Both Roon and Amazon music are reporting 24/48 as the device capabilities.



My iFi iDSD Black Label does 24/96 when connected directly to my Mac. Anything higher than that, the music distorts terribly.


----------



## rlw6534

InvisibleInk said:


> My iFi iDSD Black Label does 24/96 when connected directly to my Mac. Anything higher than that, the music distorts terribly.



I was able to get 24/192 out of my Fiio BTR5 in USB mode using the Apple CCK and USB-C cable.   One advantage to this setup is that the BTR5 has it's own battery so perhaps it will minimize draining the iPhone.


----------



## mammal

InvisibleInk said:


> Airplay is faster than any Bluetooth. So full speed is good, but limited to the LAN.


Airplay also works on WiFi, so not limited to only LAN.


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> So I found the Apple lightning to 3.5 mm adapter.  Both Roon and Amazon music are reporting 24/48 as the device capabilities.


that fits with what I’ve read of the lightning dac downsampling to 24/48. I wonder if iOS 14.6 will change that restriction. I’m sure the chipset in the adapter is capable of 24/192


----------



## yolosauce

I assume the windows 10 app will have lossless playback? I get apple music free with verizon and currently use deezer. It would be nice to save $15 a month!


----------



## CharlyBrown

yolosauce said:


> I assume the windows 10 app will have lossless playback? I get apple music free with verizon and currently use deezer. It would be nice to save $15 a month!


I’ve read no reports regarding the Windows app, yet. But it would be insane not to support full lossless with Windows imo.


----------



## fufula

CharlyBrown said:


> I’ve read no reports regarding the Windows app, yet. But it would be insane not to support full lossless with Windows imo.


Wouldn't surprise me that much tbh. Dealing with anything Apple-related on a Windows machine has always been a nightmare, which means they either don't care or purposefully keep the experience on a competing platform as unpleasant as permissible.


----------



## CharlyBrown (May 21, 2021)

fufula said:


> Wouldn't surprise me that much tbh. Dealing with anything Apple-related on a Windows machine has always been a nightmare, which means they either don't care or purposefully keep the experience on a competing platform as unpleasant as permissible.


I’m not an Apple fanboy but I’ll have to disagree on that. Apple’s strategy is moving more and more into services, rather than just hardware/OS. I don’t have any experience regarding Apple on Windows (at least not for the last 10 years or so…). But the Android version for example works just as the iPhone version and is confirmed to support lossless.


----------



## fufula

CharlyBrown said:


> I’m not an Apple fanboy but I’ll have to disagree on that. Apple’s strategy is moving more and more into services, rather than just hardware/OS. I don’t have any experience regarding Apple on Windows (at least not for the last 10 years or so…). But the Android version for example works just as the iPhone version and is confirmed to support lossless.


I use an iPhone, Macbook M1, and I also have a well-specced Windows desktop PC for gaming/music, so I have a very direct and clear comparison of how their apps work and what they look like on Apple devices and on Windows.

iTunes on Windows is outdated, heavy, and extremely sluggish. Using Apple Music through iTunes is hands down the worst experience out of all the possible streaming services out there. I wish Apple would spend some of their resources on providing their Windows-based clientele with an experience worthy of a multi-billion company, but the reality is that they're treating the MS platform like a red-headed stepchild.


----------



## visanj

fufula said:


> I use an iPhone, Macbook M1, and I also have a well-specced Windows desktop PC for gaming/music, so I have a very direct and clear comparison of how their apps work and what they look like on Apple devices and on Windows.
> 
> iTunes on Windows is outdated, heavy, and extremely sluggish. Using Apple Music through iTunes is hands down the worst experience out of all the possible streaming services out there. I wish Apple would spend some of their resources on providing their Windows-based clientele with an experience worthy of a multi-billion company, but the reality is that they're treating the MS platform like a red-headed stepchild.



I'm not sure about Spotify but Tidal is built on ElectronJS. its a light weight html, css, js framework and thats why Tidal is so fast. I don't know which is used to build iTunes. My guess on the UX is its built on Java as that has poor sluggish UI elements. I have seen similar UI elements in Java similar to iTunes. It will hardly take 1 or 2 months for big company like Apple to rebuild this but they won't do it


----------



## CharlyBrown

fufula said:


> I use an iPhone, Macbook M1, and I also have a well-specced Windows desktop PC for gaming/music, so I have a very direct and clear comparison of how their apps work and what they look like on Apple devices and on Windows.
> 
> iTunes on Windows is outdated, heavy, and extremely sluggish. Using Apple Music through iTunes is hands down the worst experience out of all the possible streaming services out there. I wish Apple would spend some of their resources on providing their Windows-based clientele with an experience worthy of a multi-billion company, but the reality is that they're treating the MS platform like a red-headed stepchild.


I remember it was just like that when I owned my last Windows machine over a decade ago. I think I went 100% Apple in 2009 or 2010. 

That is really unfortunate, I thought they vastly improved their Windows app by now. Hopefully lossless will work on Windows. Fingers crossed!


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> So I found the Apple lightning to 3.5 mm adapter.  Both Roon and Amazon music are reporting 24/48 as the device capabilities.



https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Apple support states here the dongle is limited to 24/48 so to get higher resolution we are going to need to use a third party DAC. That is unless Apple release a high res version. Seems crazy they’ve made listening to high res so difficult for the average user!


----------



## new2mus

myromeo said:


> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183
> 
> Apple support states here the dongle is limited to 24/48 so to get higher resolution we are going to need to use a third party DAC. That is unless Apple release a high res version. Seems crazy they’ve made listening to high res so difficult for the average user!


I'm sure they will have Apple-branded (and priced), future accessories for maximizing the listening experience.


----------



## visanj

and regarding their dolby atmos - spatial audio version, any idea what would be the codec and bitrate? can they maintain same bit rate?


----------



## Karnicopia

I’m pretty excited and I’m thinking about taking a look at this:

https://www.belkin.com/us/adapters/...nect-audio-adapter-with-airplay-2/p/p-auz002/

I’m thinking I could run this off of a battery and stream lossless/hires Airplay 2 to it and run optical out of it which should be a pretty low noise streaming option. I don’t really have a large library of local files so this kind of setup may work well for me. I have a Pi2AES but this audio adapter seems like a nice simplified option and even if I don’t replace the Pi2AES in my main setup I can already think of a use for it somewhere else.


----------



## rlw6534

Karnicopia said:


> I’m pretty excited and I’m thinking about taking a look at this:
> 
> https://www.belkin.com/us/adapters/...nect-audio-adapter-with-airplay-2/p/p-auz002/
> 
> I’m thinking I could run this off of a battery and stream lossless/hires Airplay 2 to it and run optical out of it which should be a pretty low noise streaming option. I don’t really have a large library of local files so this kind of setup may work well for me. I have a Pi2AES but this audio adapter seems like a nice simplified option and even if I don’t replace the Pi2AES in my main setup I can already think of a use for it somewhere else.



I don't believe Airplay 2 goes above 24/44.1 (or is it 24/48?) in it's current form.   Maybe that will change.


----------



## Karnicopia (May 26, 2021)

Yeah I think it can do 24/48 and then apple released a support document in the past week saying Airplay doesn’t currently support higher resolution so people think it may be coming during WWDC because they didn’t have to put the word currently but we’ll see.

I definitely would wait and see how that goes though (this is still pre order too) but I think I could still find a use for it even if it is just lossless but I do think they will roll out an update. The theory is it looked bad to roll everything out while they were making arguments in the Epic case so that was why the rollout seemed so disjointed (I think that was Prosser that said that so it was a rumor but it makes sense to me) and they plan to outline things in WWDC which is coming so we should hopefully know in a couple weeks.


----------



## rlw6534

Karnicopia said:


> Yeah I think it can do 24/48 and then apple released a support document in the past week saying Airplay doesn’t currently support higher resolution so people think it may be coming during WWDC because they didn’t have to put the word currently but we’ll see.
> 
> I definitely would wait and see how that goes though (this is still pre order too) but I think I could still find a use for it even if it is just lossless but I do think they will roll out an update. The theory is it looked bad to roll everything out while they were making arguments in the Epic case so that was why the rollout seemed so disjointed (I think that was Prosser that said that so it was a rumor but it makes sense to me) and they plan to outline things in WWDC which is coming so we should hopefully know in a couple weeks.



I have been thinking about a dongle DAC for high resolution listening from an iPhone but I don't like the extra battery drain.  That's one of the reasons I went to a DAP in the first place...   It's probably best to wait and see what shakes out (as you said)...


----------



## mammal

rlw6534 said:


> I don't believe Airplay 2 goes above 24/44.1 (or is it 24/48?) in it's current form. Maybe that will change.


One of Forbes product reviews for B&W speaker mentions Airplay being 24-bit 44.1 kHz. 

However, one of Apple's WWDC slides actually states support for 48 kHz as well, but I have never seen that done in the wild.


----------



## CharlyBrown

rlw6534 said:


> I have been thinking about a dongle DAC for high resolution listening from an iPhone but I don't like the extra battery drain.  That's one of the reasons I went to a DAP in the first place...   It's probably best to wait and see what shakes out (as you said)...


Doesn’t your Q5s come with its own battery? There are also smaller solutions like the Qudelix 5k that brings its own battery and also a world class EQ Software through iPhone app.


----------



## rlw6534

CharlyBrown said:


> Doesn’t your Q5s come with its own battery? There are also smaller solutions like the Qudelix 5k that brings its own battery and also a world class EQ Software through iPhone app.



Yes, I have a Q5s and use it with my old iPhone, it's simply a big, heavy beast for portable use.   I also have a 5k and it's limited to 24/96, same as my Dragonfly.  Perhaps I don't really *need *more hardware... but that's how this hobby seems to work, at least for me...


----------



## Pro-Jules (May 27, 2021)

I have a Qudelix 5K, SE100 (2 of them!) + Sony 507 DAP

I plan to quit them all for a dongle DAC & trailing cables mess on my iPhone 12 plus max

THX Onyx DAC
and
Luxury & Precision W2 DAC

on order - will see which wins the shoot out.

I have 3.5 and 4.4 cables for my Empire Ear Nemesis iems.

I can’t use stock iems (I had to have a custom pair made)

so to take phone calls it will be a real pain trying winkle an iem out of my ear. (They fit so tight)

lord knows how battery life will go. (But I am near power most times)

with my luck the return dates on these DACs will time out and Apple will come out with its own DAC that works great!


----------



## rlw6534

Pro-Jules said:


> I have a Qudelix 5K, SE100 (2 of them!) + Sony 507 DAP
> 
> I plan to quit them all for a dongle DAC & trailing cables mess on my iPhone 12 plus max
> 
> ...



At least the iPhone 12 Max has a really big battery!    Maybe the hit on battery life won't be too bad.


----------



## Pro-Jules

rlw6534 said:


> At least the iPhone 12 Max has a really big battery!    Maybe the hit on battery life won't be too bad.


Zakley!  My thoughts entirely!


----------



## CharlyBrown

rlw6534 said:


> Yes, I have a Q5s and use it with my old iPhone, it's simply a big, heavy beast for portable use.   I also have a 5k and it's limited to 24/96, same as my Dragonfly.  Perhaps I don't really *need *more hardware... but that's how this hobby seems to work, at least for me...


True, I just checked. I am using the Hidizs S9 currently pretty much 100% of the time since I sold off my A&K. The S9 can do up to 32/786 but of course, lacks its own battery. But it is really sleek and lightweight. 

I made a couple phone calls yesterday + the usual iPhone use + listening to music with the S9 and I went to bed with around 10% battery. I guess if you really listen for hours and use the iPhone like most people do it will not survive a whole day without intermittent charging. But for me, thats ok as I have cables / QI chargers everywhere in the house, car, bag etc.


----------



## rlw6534 (May 28, 2021)

CharlyBrown said:


> True, I just checked. I am using the Hidizs S9 currently pretty much 100% of the time since I sold off my A&K. The S9 can do up to 32/786 but of course, lacks its own battery. But it is really sleek and lightweight.
> 
> I made a couple phone calls yesterday + the usual iPhone use + listening to music with the S9 and I went to bed with around 10% battery. I guess if you really listen for hours and use the iPhone like most people do it will not survive a whole day without intermittent charging. But for me, thats ok as I have cables / QI chargers everywhere in the house, car, bag etc.



I have a BTR5 that I use for watching TV with headphones (it supports Aptx LL).  It might actually be a good solution for Apple Lossless via USB with it's built-in battery and 32/384 support.  I was also looking at the Hiby FC3 as a smaller option.


----------



## Pro-Jules

THX Onyx arrived.

(L&P W2 on way)

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/anyone-tried-out-the-new-thx-onyx.957312/page-5#post-16380246


----------



## Tooros

I’d be very surprised if apple didn’t release a specific upgrade to the lightning/3.5 dongle to offer the 192/24 option - assuming they can’t fix the current 48/24 limit. They’re in the game to make money. This seems like an easy win. Plus, of course, some new voodoo AirPods.


----------



## Sterling2 (Jun 1, 2021)

I think I am good to go: for Spatial Audio I have now connected my laptop via HDMI to my OPPO-205 which processes Dolby ATMOS and outputs to my 5.1 analog preamp. The laptop has been configured in sound control panel to Dolby ATMOS. For lossless, I have  connected my laptop via usb to my Parasound P6 DAC; and, I have set iTunes to output up to  24/192. This morning I expected Apple Music to have offerings of Spatial Audio, as well as lossless; but, I saw no such offerings upon opening iTunes this morning.


----------



## Tooros

It just says ‘June’ which could be anytime. I suspect nothing will happen until the iOS update. No idea when that’s scheduled though. Anyone know?


----------



## Sterling2

Karnicopia said:


> I’m pretty excited and I’m thinking about taking a look at this:
> 
> https://www.belkin.com/us/adapters/...nect-audio-adapter-with-airplay-2/p/p-auz002/
> 
> I’m thinking I could run this off of a battery and stream lossless/hires Airplay 2 to it and run optical out of it which should be a pretty low noise streaming option. I don’t really have a large library of local files so this kind of setup may work well for me. I have a Pi2AES but this audio adapter seems like a nice simplified option and even if I don’t replace the Pi2AES in my main setup I can already think of a use for it somewhere else. Another option is Airport Express, which will receive from Apple or Microsoft computers and devices.


----------



## kumar402

WWDC21 will kickstart on 7th June. We may get update around that time frame with launch of iOS 15


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Tooros said:


> It just says ‘June’ which could be anytime. I suspect nothing will happen until the iOS update. No idea when that’s scheduled though. Anyone know?


iOS 14.6 already enabled OS-wise.  All that’s needed now is a server-side update on Apple Music, which as you pointed out they only said “June.”


----------



## CharlyBrown

My guess would also be the launch during WWDC, let’s see. I definitely can’t wait


----------



## PopZeus

We could see more from Apple or we might not see anything radically new hardware-wise. I don't think a giant behemoth like Apple can go from compressed, wireless audio to hi-res, wired or wireless overnight. So many different software and hardware teams at Apple would have to be working on this simultaneously.


----------



## CharlyBrown

PopZeus said:


> We could see more from Apple or we might not see anything radically new hardware-wise. I don't think a giant behemoth like Apple can go from compressed, wireless audio to hi-res, wired or wireless overnight. So many different software and hardware teams at Apple would have to be working on this simultaneously.


Maybe they just don’t care for the time being. All AirPods users wouldn’t hear any difference re lossless anyways but they will have great benefits from spatial audio. All audiophile enthusiasts wouldn’t benefit from spatial audio but even with little external DACs or DAPs will have certainty that they get the best possible material for streaming. 

Win:Win:Win, if you ask me.


----------



## PopZeus

Well, it's free, so of course it's all a win. I don't think this is some game changer based on what we know currently. Of course they might be working on cool stuff in secret, but if they are, we haven't seen signs of it yet.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

I’d bet on AirPlay 3/new streaming protocol with support for HiRes streaming over any wired solution. Rumor mill has the iPhone going completely portless/wireless, so a wired DAC/amp seems unlikely.


----------



## CharlyBrown

PopZeus said:


> Well, it's free, so of course it's all a win. I don't think this is some game changer based on what we know currently. Of course they might be working on cool stuff in secret, but if they are, we haven't seen signs of it yet.



I don’t know how spatial audio will sound in reality. I only know this feature from movies and shows like The Mandalorian on Disney and there, it is a game changer imho.



CANiSLAYu said:


> I’d bet on AirPlay 3/new streaming protocol with support for HiRes streaming over any wired solution. Rumor mill has the iPhone going completely portless/wireless, so a wired DAC/amp seems unlikely.



Very likely. Still, Apple states lossless will only work with external DAC/Amps. At least currently. Maybe there is something in the making?


----------



## iamoneagain

CANiSLAYu said:


> I’d bet on AirPlay 3/new streaming protocol with support for HiRes streaming over any wired solution. Rumor mill has the iPhone going completely portless/wireless, so a wired DAC/amp seems unlikely.



I’m hoping they end up doing like Spotify and have Apple Connect. Where you only use iPhone or iPad as a remote and music plays nativity on whatever streamer. Won’t drain battery and can switch to any device to continue the remote connection. But I assume Apple will figure out how to do wireless hires. There have already been sightings of the lossless icon showing up on some people’s iPhones.


----------



## Finger Fish

CANiSLAYu said:


> I’d bet on AirPlay 3/new streaming protocol with support for HiRes streaming over any wired solution. Rumor mill has the iPhone going completely portless/wireless, so a wired DAC/amp seems unlikely.


Once they go portless I'm out. Never giving up my wired solution. Especially when I bet companies like FiiO won't be allowed to use Apples brand new wireless protocol on their wireless adapters. It'll be proprietary can almost 100% bet that.


----------



## PopZeus

If Apple significantly upgrades (and frees up the license to) Airplay as well as their BT codec, then I'll consider their foray into lossless audio legit. Otherwise, I have to consider the case of Apple Arcade, which is celebrating its 2nd year as an active service in Sept. Literally not a game changer   But seriously, I'm looking for signs of life within the company towards audiophiles.


----------



## Tooros

Just got iOS 14.6. Can’t see anything obvious.


----------



## iamoneagain

Tooros said:


> Just got iOS 14.6. Can’t see anything obvious.


I’m in 14.7 beta and it doesn’t have Apple Music update either. It’s something on the server side they need to activate. Going to assume it will go live next week.  Hope lossless is at least bit perfect with AirPlay 2.


----------



## Kiats

https://www.technologyfocus.net/can-airplay-2-support-hi-res-audio/

This may help answer the questions about what Airplay can transmit.


----------



## fufula (Jun 7, 2021)

iamoneagain said:


> I’m in 14.7 beta and it doesn’t have Apple Music update either. It’s something on the server side they need to activate. Going to assume it will go live next week.  Hope lossless is at least bit perfect with AirPlay 2.


Wouldn’t surprise me if they released it with iOS 15 as a beta feature. Gives them enough time to test it and hype it up over summer and the release of stable coincides with the annual release of new hardware in September that could include lossless support.

It makes a little more sense than releasing this as almost a non-feature of iOS 14.whatever where most of their customers won’t be able to use it and they won’t be able to monetize it in any way.


----------



## iamoneagain

fufula said:


> Wouldn’t surprise me if they released it with iOS 15 as a beta feature. Gives them enough time to test it and hype it up over summer and the release of stable coincides with the annual release of new hardware in September that could include lossless support.
> 
> It makes a little more sense than releasing this as almost a non-feature of iOS 14.whatever where most of their customers won’t be able to use it and they won’t be able to monetize it in any way.


They said they’re releasing in June, so it’s not dependent on the iOS.  Believe even iOS 14.6 is ready once they flip the switch. Plus they have an announcement today about the spatial audio. I’m perfectly happy with normal stereo output and great headphones.  Plenty of soundstage but I’m will in to see what spatial audio can do and supposed to work for any headphones. I guess find out more later today.


----------



## CharlyBrown

fufula said:


> Wouldn’t surprise me if they released it with iOS 15 as a beta feature. Gives them enough time to test it and hype it up over summer and the release of stable coincides with the annual release of new hardware in September that could include lossless support.
> 
> It makes a little more sense than releasing this as almost a non-feature of iOS 14.whatever where most of their customers won’t be able to use it and they won’t be able to monetize it in any way.



That would more than surprise me (in a negative way…). No, Apple announced June and they will deliver, for sure. 

I also think they will launch lossless/spatial today or in this very week. Let’s see.


----------



## PopZeus

Spatial audio is basically what the Mobius does without the head tracking aspect, unless I'm mistaken. As I recall, it was kind of a gimmick on that headset, albeit one that has true utility in games and movies.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Spatial Audio launches today…. Lossless also???

Macrumors - Live Coverage


----------



## visanj

Anyone able to experience Apple Music Lossless or Spatial Audio? I am not getting that option in my iPod. Also they say its a server side update, how is that possible? It is not possible to change settings UI (to include lossless option) without ios update right?


----------



## Loukasss

Hello, it's been maybe an hour since i was able to use the Lossless option. I noticed this was possible in my Ipad Pro (2nd gen) while i was looking the Music App settings in the Setting Apps. There you'll see this new section called Audio where you'll see 1. Dolby Atmos; 2. Audio Quality; 3. EQ; 4. Volume adjustment. This last two already existed but now they all belong to this new section, and in Audio Quality you can enabñe Lossless Audio. After that you'll be able to choose the quality of the content, be that AAC, ALAC 24/48 or ALC 24/192.


----------



## baldrayo

Hi all, just got this set up with my 2018 iPad Pro and ifi iDSD Diablo, and decided to give it a whirl before I went to bed.

So far so good. I wish they had a playlist or something that showcased hi-res files - I've just been going through some albums seeing if I can find anything to test out. Most titles with the hi-res label I've found so far are 48/24 or 96/24, the only 192/24 I found where Aretha Franklin's "Lady Soul" and "I've Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You". Both triggered the amber light on the Diablo. Hopefully as it rolls out to more users, people will post up good test tracks they find.

I'm sure "better" listeners than I will be able to determine how good this sounds compared to Qobuz / Tidal et al, but so far, though the Diablo and my DCA Aeon Noire's I'm digging what I'm hearing. I haven't tried spatial audio, as I can't find my AirPods Pro, but I saw that Apple put up a couple of playlists for people who want to test that feature out.


----------



## visanj

Loukasss said:


> Hello, it's been maybe an hour since i was able to use the Lossless option. I noticed this was possible in my Ipad Pro (2nd gen) while i was looking the Music App settings in the Setting Apps. There you'll see this new section called Audio where you'll see 1. Dolby Atmos; 2. Audio Quality; 3. EQ; 4. Volume adjustment. This last two already existed but now they all belong to this new section, and in Audio Quality you can enabñe Lossless Audio. After that you'll be able to choose the quality of the content, be that AAC, ALAC 24/48 or ALC 24/192.



Did you do software update by any chance? or those options appeared all of a sudden without updating your software?


----------



## Kiats

interesting thing is that I had it for a few hours on my iPhone and iPad Pro and then it seems to have disappeared again... Not sure if anyone else is facing that issue.


----------



## Luis Mad

Here in Madrid, Spain, it seems to be working fine. As advertised some fles are in AAC, some in Lossless and few in Hires. I have tried for example Schumann symphonies Rattle in 24/96. The files says “alta resolución sin perdida” must be Hiress Lossless in English. When you touch on the Hires notice, it says Alac 24/96.  My Dragonfly Black confirms and turns to the appropriate color indicating 24/96. I can’t wait to see the whole catalog in Lossless!


----------



## Chesty

It's working in Hong Kong.  I have already deleted my old albums and started to download them again in hi-res, where available.  I also own a relatively large hi-res (mainly 24/96) FLAC library of mainly classical music - about 500 albums. I have only cross-checked a few against Apple Music, but for those I have checked, only about half appear available at the same resolution. I expect this depends on the various deals Apple has made with the record labels, but don't really know.


----------



## niotio910

I'm trying the Music app, but I don't 100% sure if it is lossless or not. Also, is the Mac output bit-perfect? It seems my DAC always shows 96 kHz. Unless I manually change that in Audio MIDI Setup.


----------



## Kalnet101

It's working for me from my end. I updated my M1 MacBook Air to the latest update and I guess the app auto-updated by itself.


----------



## visanj

Does anyone know if latest ipod touch (2019) supports lossless?


----------



## Kiats

Thanks everyone. Mysteriously, about 2 hours or so later, it was back on. Technical glitch is my guess.


----------



## Loukasss

Hello everyone. How can I get the most out of my Shanling UA2 with the Highres Audio? I was able to put up to 24/96Khz but albums that are available in 24/192Khz won’t go at that resolution through my usb dac. I’m new to DACs  Thanks in advance and hope you can finally enjoy the Hifi service uwu


----------



## rlw6534

Loukasss said:


> Hello everyone. How can I get the most out of my Shanling UA2 with the Highres Audio? I was able to put up to 24/96Khz but albums that are available in 24/192Khz won’t go at that resolution through my usb dac. I’m new to DACs  Thanks in advance and hope you can finally enjoy the Hifi service uwu



What's your source device?


----------



## RamGuy

PopZeus said:


> Spatial audio is basically what the Mobius does without the head tracking aspect, unless I'm mistaken. As I recall, it was kind of a gimmick on that headset, albeit one that has true utility in games and movies.



Not really. You can enforce «Spatial Audio» on non-supported tracks and that becomes simple Dolby Atmos virtualisation/mixing. But the tracks being labelled as Dolby Atmos are new releases of the songs coming from new masters where the studio has mastered them with Dolby Atmos in mind.

This also explains why you have to choose if you want your offline downloads to be in stereo or Dolby Atmos for tracks that have Dolby Atmos available. The source is not the same so you have to make a choice if you would have one or the other for your downloaded content.

If it was simply Apple using some Dolby algorithm to resample existing tracks into Dolby Atmos there wouldn’t be any need for this option to exist as all the files would be the same. Apple is clearly going to have all tracks in a wide variaty of versions on their servers:

AAC HE, 128kbps Stereo (High Efficiency, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
AAC, 256kbps Stereo (High Quality, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
ALAC, Stereo (Lossless, 24-bit/48kHz)
ALAC, kbps Stereo (Hi-Res Lossless, 24-bit/96-192kHz depending on the track)

AAC HE, 128kbps Dolby Atmos (High Efficiency, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
AAC, 256kbps Dolby Atmos  (High Quality, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
ALAC, Dolby Atmos (Lossless, 24-bit/48kHz)
ALAC, Dolby Atmos (Hi-Res Lossless, 24-bit/96-192kHz depending on the track)

At some point all tracks will exsist in a total of eight different versions on the Apple Music servers. Obviously they don‘t as this point in time as just a very limited amount of tracks are available in Hi-Res Lossless. Even fewer are available in Dolby Atmos. Most, if not all should be available in AAC-HE stereo, AAC stereo and ALAC stereo (Lossless).


----------



## visanj

RamGuy said:


> Not really. You can enforce «Spatial Audio» on non-supported tracks and that becomes simple Dolby Atmos virtualisation/mixing. But the tracks being labelled as Dolby Atmos are new releases of the songs coming from new masters where the studio has mastered them with Dolby Atmos in mind.
> 
> This also explains why you have to choose if you want your offline downloads to be in stereo or Dolby Atmos for tracks that have Dolby Atmos available. The source is not the same so you have to make a choice if you would have one or the other for your downloaded content.
> 
> ...



I highly doubt that dolby atmos will be in lossless/hi-res as they have to support spatial audio in airpods


----------



## CharlyBrown

What do you guys think of Spatial Audio / Dolby Atmos?

I think it’s a nice addition to the service but unfortunately only works with Apples AirPods, as far as I know. I like the effect in some songs and it definitely sounds „spatial“. But I think it comes at a price as it takes some energy from certain frequencies. That’s at least my short term opinion.

Some songs sound much worse with Spatial Audio. Try Blink 182 - What’s my age again? -> This song sounds really off and weird with Spatial Audio and much better with the real track.


----------



## niotio910

Kalnet101 said:


> It's working for me from my end. I updated my M1 MacBook Air to the latest update and I guess the app auto-updated by itself.


Hmm. I don't see such "Audio Quality" in my music app's settings.


----------



## rlw6534 (Jun 8, 2021)

RamGuy said:


> Not really. You can enforce «Spatial Audio» on non-supported tracks and that becomes simple Dolby Atmos virtualisation/mixing. But the tracks being labelled as Dolby Atmos are new releases of the songs coming from new masters where the studio has mastered them with Dolby Atmos in mind.
> 
> This also explains why you have to choose if you want your offline downloads to be in stereo or Dolby Atmos for tracks that have Dolby Atmos available. The source is not the same so you have to make a choice if you would have one or the other for your downloaded content.
> 
> ...




I was just trying some tracks out this morning.  The sample rate for Dolby Atmos tracks I have tried (so far) have been 44.1 kHz on my external DAC no matter what the high resolution settings are.  If I turn off Dolby Atmos, I can then get high resolution up to 192 kHz.   Perhaps these are mutually exclusive.  This is on my iPhone.

On another subject, on my MacBook Pro, Apple Music does not use Coreaudio exclusive mode and does not adjust sample rate to the music track that is being played.  You have to go into Audio MIDI Setup and manually adjust sample rate even when you are using an external USB DAC.  I guess I'll leave it at 192 kHz for now but this is a pretty big miss...


----------



## Loukasss

rlw6534 said:


> What's your source device?


An Ipad Pro 2nd Gen and, well, like everyone in this thread, Apple Music Hifi (Temporary name i guess?) Do you have any idea why is this happening? I've asked Shangling directly but they say they haven't tried the UA2 with the Hifi service yet.


----------



## rlw6534 (Jun 8, 2021)

Loukasss said:


> An Ipad Pro 2nd Gen and, well, like everyone in this thread, Apple Music Hifi (Temporary name i guess?) Do you have any idea why is this happening? I've asked Shangling directly but they say they haven't tried the UA2 with the Hifi service yet.



I just tested on my iPad Air 2 and Fiio BTR5 and was able to play 192 kHz tracks with the BTR5 indicating 192 kHz on it's display.  Maybe a problem with your DAC?  Are you sure you were playing a 192 kHz track?  I have only found a few so far.


----------



## kael13

rlw6534 said:


> I just tested on my iPad Air 2 and Fiio BTR5 and was able to play 192 kHz tracks with the BTR5 indicating 192 kHz on it's display.  Maybe a problem with your DAC?  Are you sure you were playing a 192 kHz track?  I have only found a few so far.


How have you got that connected? Via Lightning to USB-C?

I haven't managed to get Dolby Atmos working on my Mac using a DAC, via USB or Bluetooth. It does work using the built-in headphone out though. Any reason why? Same BTR5 Bluetooth DAC works with my phone just fine.


----------



## CharlyBrown

niotio910 said:


> Hmm. I don't see such "Audio Quality" in my music app's settings.


On iPhone and iPad the settings are placed within the general iPhone / iPad settings app -> Music


----------



## rlw6534 (Jun 8, 2021)

kael13 said:


> How have you got that connected? Via Lightning to USB-C?
> 
> I haven't managed to get Dolby Atmos working on my Mac using a DAC, via USB or Bluetooth. It does work using the built-in headphone out though. Any reason why? Same BTR5 Bluetooth DAC works with my phone just fine.



Yes, I'm using the Fiio LT-LT1 cable (lightning to USB-C).  I'm sure it would work with the CCK as well.  I just turn charging off on the BTR5 so it doesn't draw power from my iPhone.  Let me test a bit on my MacBook.   You may have to set the sample rate to 44.1 for Atmos to work (using Audio MIDI Setup).

Edit:

You are correct.  I can't get Dolby Atmos on my USB connected BTR5 either (on my MacBook).   It works with AirPods Pro just fine.  I thought it was working earlier today but maybe I got confused (or Apple is having technical issues)...


----------



## Loukasss

rlw6534 said:


> I just tested on my iPad Air 2 and Fiio BTR5 and was able to play 192 kHz tracks with the BTR5 indicating 192 kHz on it's display.  Maybe a problem with your DAC?  Are you sure you were playing a 192 kHz track?  I have only found a few so far.


Yeah, pretty sure about that. I was playing one of Jonh William's live concerts available in 24/192Khz and for some reason the output i get is just 96Khz. Weird because i tried the Shanling UA2 yesterday in my PC with Foobar and Wasapi playing the Soundtrack of The Phantom Menace also in 24/192Khz and was doing just fine, even the LED changed to yellow (which indicates it's playing in that resolution) . Which i guess is a problem of either my Ipad or Apple Music. Idk  I would really want to be able to play 192Khz songs on the go without having to use my PC


----------



## tomwoo

rlw6534 said:


> I was just trying some tracks out this morning.  The sample rate for Dolby Atmos tracks I have tried (so far) have been 44.1 kHz on my external DAC no matter what the high resolution settings are.  If I turn off Dolby Atmos, I can then get high resolution up to 192 kHz.   Perhaps these are mutually exclusive.  This is on my iPhone.
> 
> On another subject, on my MacBook Pro, Apple Music does not use Coreaudio exclusive mode and does not adjust sample rate to the music track that is being played.  You have to go into Audio MIDI Setup and manually adjust sample rate even when you are using an external USB DAC.  I guess I'll leave it at 192 kHz for now but this is a pretty big miss...


It would be very disappointing if Apple chose not to implement bit-perfect playback like Amazon Music. But I think it should be very easy for them to do that because Core audio was developed by Apple after all...


----------



## rlw6534

Loukasss said:


> Yeah, pretty sure about that. I was playing one of Jonh William's live concerts available in 24/192Khz and for some reason the output i get is just 96Khz. Weird because i tried the Shanling UA2 yesterday in my PC with Foobar and Wasapi playing the Soundtrack of The Phantom Menace also in 24/192Khz and was doing just fine, even the LED changed to yellow (which indicates it's playing in that resolution) . Which i guess is a problem of either my Ipad or Apple Music. Idk  I would really want to be able to play 192Khz songs on the go without having to use my PC



Sorry I wasn't any help.  If you have specific albums or tracks you would like me to test, let me know.  I couldn't find a John Williams' album in 192 kHz.

Here is an track I know is 192 kHz if you want to test:


----------



## Loukasss

rlw6534 said:


> Sorry I wasn't any help.  If you have specific albums or tracks you would like me to test, let me know.  I couldn't find a John Williams' album in 192 kHz.
> 
> Here is an track I know is 192 kHz if you want to test:


OMG lol it worked. Why? xD I don't get it. For real it showed in some albums that it could get to 192KHz. For example look up for Joe Hisaishi's "Symphonic Suite "Kiki's Delivery Service" And they show you that the songs are in Hi-Res Lossless up to 192Khz, but somehow my UA2 won't run it. Thanks anyway because i was worried my usb Dac wasn't working properly <3 Still i want to learn more about this whole thing happening with Lossless in Apple Music. Thanks for all


----------



## rlw6534

Loukasss said:


> OMG lol it worked. Why? xD I don't get it. For real it showed in some albums that it could get to 192KHz. For example look up for Joe Hisaishi's "Symphonic Suite "Kiki's Delivery Service" And they show you that the songs are in Hi-Res Lossless up to 192Khz, but somehow my UA2 won't run it. Thanks anyway because i was worried my usb Dac wasn't working properly <3 Still i want to learn more about this whole thing happening with Lossless in Apple Music. Thanks for all



For me, Joe Hisaishi's "Symphonic Suite "Kiki's Delivery Service" shows up as 24/96.  I'm using my MacBook.  I haven't found very many 192 kHz tracks so they seem to be rare.  Also, it's certainly possible Apple may be having some technical issues with the rollout.  For example, I can't get Atmos to work with an external DAC on my MacBook (even though it works on my iPhone)...


----------



## Loukasss

rlw6534 said:


> For me, Joe Hisaishi's "Symphonic Suite "Kiki's Delivery Service" shows up as 24/96.  I'm using my MacBook.  I haven't found very many 192 kHz tracks so they seem to be rare.  Also, it's certainly possible Apple may be having some technical issues with the rollout.  For example, I can't get Atmos to work with an external DAC on my MacBook (even though it works on my iPhone)...


Hmmm, that’s very weird. I hope they fix that over the week in IPadOS and IOS. How did you found those tracks? Manually or Apple created some kind of “High Ress Lossless music” category?


----------



## Sandwiches

visanj said:


> Does anyone know if latest ipod touch (2019) supports lossless?


If the iPod Touch can run iOS 14.6 then I'd guess yes. It's not mentioned on the Apple support page.


----------



## Sandwiches

The soundstage on Atmos tracks using my PowerBeats Pro sounds quite good. I think this is going to be a popular feature. It's an easy-to-notice difference compared to lossless vs. AAC/mp3, and you don't need new gear to take advantage of it.


----------



## RamGuy

Some producers have done crap all with their Dolby Atmos releases. Listening to Linken Park and their Dolby Atmos tracks is just sad. In the End from Linken Park is simply worse in Dolby Atmos compared to regular stereo. Sounds like they simply tossed their original stereo track into a Dolby Atmos mixer and settled with whatever they got without even listening to it themselves. They for sure haven't done any mixing on their own, or at least I hope not considering how bad the result ended up being.

Other tracks work very well and provide a much more noticeable difference compared to AAC vs Lossless and Hi-Res. But still, I can't say Dolby Atmos is a smash hit for me as of yet. It's very hit and miss whether the Dolby Atmos sounds better if you ask me. Luckily it's very easy to disable Dolby Atmos through "Control Center" on iOS/iPadOS but it's still annoying having to do it all the time.


----------



## CharlyBrown

rlw6534 said:


> For me, Joe Hisaishi's "Symphonic Suite "Kiki's Delivery Service" shows up as 24/96.  I'm using my MacBook.  I haven't found very many 192 kHz tracks so they seem to be rare.  Also, it's certainly possible Apple may be having some technical issues with the rollout.  For example, I can't get Atmos to work with an external DAC on my MacBook (even though it works on my iPhone)...


I thought Dolby Atmos works only with Apples wireless headphones like AirPods and Beats with H1 and W1 chips. That’s also the case for me. As soon as I put down my AirPods and connect my dac/amps the „Dolby Atmos“ Flag gets replaced by „Lossless“ or „HighRes Lossless“.



Sandwiches said:


> The soundstage on Atmos tracks using my PowerBeats Pro sounds quite good. I think this is going to be a popular feature. It's an easy-to-notice difference compared to lossless vs. AAC/mp3, and you don't need new gear to take advantage of it.



Yes it is, but unfortunately it only works with Apples wireless devices which are lacking great audio quality for us audiophiles.


----------



## rlw6534

Loukasss said:


> Hmmm, that’s very weird. I hope they fix that over the week in IPadOS and IOS. How did you found those tracks? Manually or Apple created some kind of “High Ress Lossless music” category?



I manually found a few just by clicking through some of the new "Spatial Audio" playlists.   I haven't figured out any other way.  I do wish apple would create a category for the various high resolution formats.


----------



## CharlyBrown

RamGuy said:


> Some producers have done crap all with their Dolby Atmos releases. Listening to Linken Park and their Dolby Atmos tracks is just sad. In the End from Linken Park is simply worse in Dolby Atmos compared to regular stereo. Sounds like they simply tossed their original stereo track into a Dolby Atmos mixer and settled with whatever they got without even listening to it themselves. They for sure haven't done any mixing on their own, or at least I hope not considering how bad the result ended up being.
> 
> Other tracks work very well and provide a much more noticeable difference compared to AAC vs Lossless and Hi-Res. But still, I can't say Dolby Atmos is a smash hit for me as of yet. It's very hit and miss whether the Dolby Atmos sounds better if you ask me. Luckily it's very easy to disable Dolby Atmos through "Control Center" on iOS/iPadOS but it's still annoying having to do it all the time.



Please try Blink 182 - What’s my age again. I mentioned it before. Compare Dolby Atmos and Stereo. The Dolby version sounds really hilarious, it’s that bad. Why don’t they just listen to these tracks at least 1 time before releasing it??


----------



## rlw6534

CharlyBrown said:


> I thought Dolby Atmos works only with Apples wireless headphones like AirPods and Beats with H1 and W1 chips. That’s also the case for me. As soon as I put down my AirPods and connect my dac/amps the „Dolby Atmos“ Flag gets replaced by „Lossless“ or „HighRes Lossless“.


Same here.  I thought you could use Dolby Atmos on wired headphones by selecting "always on" for the Atmos setting.   It seems to work that way on my iPhone with an USB DAC.  Maybe just some teething pains on the MacBook.


----------



## CharlyBrown

rlw6534 said:


> Same here.  I thought you could use Dolby Atmos on wired headphones by selecting "always on" for the Atmos setting.   It seems to work that way on my iPhone with an USB DAC.  Maybe just some teething pains on the MacBook.


Good point, I left this on „automatic“. I cannot test this right now but will do later. Is the music „spatial“ with your USB DAC and wired headphones?


----------



## Sandwiches

rlw6534 said:


> Same here.  I thought you could use Dolby Atmos on wired headphones by selecting "always on" for the Atmos setting.   It seems to work that way on my iPhone with an USB DAC.  Maybe just some teething pains on the MacBook.


It seems like the lossless badge trumps the Atmos badge if both are valid. When you listen to the Gaye comparison track on a DAC/Amp it says lossless but you can still hear the differences.


----------



## Sandwiches

RamGuy said:


> Some producers have done crap all with their Dolby Atmos releases. Listening to Linken Park and their Dolby Atmos tracks is just sad. In the End from Linken Park is simply worse in Dolby Atmos compared to regular stereo. Sounds like they simply tossed their original stereo track into a Dolby Atmos mixer and settled with whatever they got without even listening to it themselves. They for sure haven't done any mixing on their own, or at least I hope not considering how bad the result ended up being.
> 
> Other tracks work very well and provide a much more noticeable difference compared to AAC vs Lossless and Hi-Res. But still, I can't say Dolby Atmos is a smash hit for me as of yet. It's very hit and miss whether the Dolby Atmos sounds better if you ask me. Luckily it's very easy to disable Dolby Atmos through "Control Center" on iOS/iPadOS but it's still annoying having to do it all the time.


This is exactly right. I was using Tidal Atmos on Apple TV before this rollout, using a 9-channel Atmos setup. Some tracks like Kraftwerk or The Band sound incredible. For others, it added nothing. Seems like it's the same deal using the headphone DSP tricks.


----------



## Sandwiches

CharlyBrown said:


> Yes it is, but unfortunately it only works with Apples wireless devices which are lacking great audio quality for us audiophiles.


It's Dolby DSP technology built into the Apple Music app. It works with any headphones; wired or wireless. Lossless (from any source) absolutely sounds richer and more satisfying. But Atmos provides the soundstage of open-backs when the track is mastered correctly. It's very impressive and you can only get it from Apple right now. Bad news for the competition


----------



## rlw6534

CharlyBrown said:


> Good point, I left this on „automatic“. I cannot test this right now but will do later. Is the music „spatial“ with your USB DAC and wired headphones?



It sounds "spatial" on my iPhone but not on my MacBook using the same DAC (BTR5 via USB) and wired headphones.


----------



## Sandwiches

rlw6534 said:


> It sounds "spatial" on my iPhone but not on my MacBook using the same DAC (BTR5 via USB) and wired headphones.


That's right, it's iOS/iPadOS only.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Does anyone else get a Dolby Atmos indicator while using the volume in control center like these images:









I have everything correct in settings and get the Atmos badge in the Music App, but my notification center doesn't get the badge:


----------



## CANiSLAYu

RamGuy said:


> If it was simply Apple using some Dolby algorithm to resample existing tracks into Dolby Atmos there wouldn’t be any need for this option to exist as all the files would be the same. Apple is clearly going to have all tracks in a wide variaty of versions on their servers:
> 
> AAC HE, 128kbps Stereo (High Efficiency, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
> AAC, 256kbps Stereo (High Quality, 16-bit, 44.1kHz)
> ...





visanj said:


> I highly doubt that dolby atmos will be in lossless/hi-res as they have to support spatial audio in airpods



I'm wondering about this as well.  It seems like it's one or the other.  When I connect my Lotoo PAW S1, which shows the sample rate, when I choose a track that has both hi res and Dolby Atmos, if I use "always on" to force Atmos it outputs at 44.1kHz, but when I put it to Automatic or Off it'll play at 96kHz.  I guess the question is, can you get both lossless or hi res with Atmos at the same time.  My quick tinkering thus far suggests no.  Has anyone successfully gotten both at the same time?


----------



## Sandwiches

A track mastered and reproduced at 16/44.1 with the Atmos DSP applied seems to be "lossless" and Atmos by Apple's standards. Hi-Res Atmos is only something you can get from a Blu-ray right now, I think.


----------



## Anaz

rlw6534 said:


> I was just trying some tracks out this morning.  The sample rate for Dolby Atmos tracks I have tried (so far) have been 44.1 kHz on my external DAC no matter what the high resolution settings are.  If I turn off Dolby Atmos, I can then get high resolution up to 192 kHz.   Perhaps these are mutually exclusive.  This is on my iPhone.
> 
> On another subject, on my *MacBook Pro, Apple Music does not use Coreaudio exclusive mode and does not adjust sample rate to the music track that is being played.*  You have to go into Audio MIDI Setup and manually adjust sample rate even when you are using an external USB DAC.  I guess I'll leave it at 192 kHz for now but this is a pretty big miss...


[emphasis mine]

Yep, same thing on my Macs. iOS audio output to my DACs changes the sample rate correctly, so hopefully they'll fix things on the Mac side.


----------



## Thomaswa (Jun 8, 2021)

I am confused, are we able to play Dolby Atmos on external DAC and wired headphones? Im guessing no? If i check the "Always on" box, it wont show the Dolby logo when using an external DAC.

Btw, someone mentioned "What's my age again?" by blink-182, check it out. It sounds pretty off on Dolby Atmos.

Oh well, it is only the first day so it's probably just growing pains.


----------



## Sandwiches

Anaz said:


> [emphasis mine]
> 
> Yep, same thing on my Macs. iOS audio output to my DACs changes the sample rate correctly, so hopefully they'll fix things on the Mac side.


According to the Apple Support page, hi-res should work if you use an external DAC and you change the macOS Music app settings to hi-res. Pretty hilarious that it sounds like that's wrong and you still need to fiddle with the MIDI stuff.


----------



## CharlyBrown

rlw6534 said:


> It sounds "spatial" on my iPhone but not on my MacBook using the same DAC (BTR5 via USB) and wired headphones.


Thanks for your answer. I just tried for myself and it works for me also on my iPhone with my W2 and  EE IEMs. Nice addition and something I will play with from time to time. Still not sure if I like this better than Stereo. 

Maybe it sounds better if brand new songs come out that are optimized for Spatial Audio from scratch. At least we can use this also with our „better“ headphones as the Apple devices are pretty weak when it comes to audio quality imo.


----------



## Sandwiches

Thomaswa said:


> I am confused, are we able to play Dolby Atmos on external DAC and wired headphones? Im guessing no? If i check the "Always on" box, it wont show the Dolby logo when using an external DAC.
> 
> Btw, someone mentioned "What's my age again?" by blink-182, check it out. It sounds pretty bad on Dolby Atmos.
> 
> Oh well, it is only the first day so it's probably just growing pains.


Does it show the "Lossless" badge instead of the Dolby Logo?


----------



## CharlyBrown

Thomaswa said:


> I am confused, are we able to play Dolby Atmos on external DAC and wired headphones? Im guessing no? If i check the "Always on" box, it wont show the Dolby logo when using an external DAC.
> 
> Btw, someone mentioned "What's my age again?" by blink-182, check it out. It sounds pretty off on Dolby Atmos.
> 
> Oh well, it is only the first day so it's probably just growing pains.



I also thought it would only work with wireless Apple headphones that run with H1 or W1 chips but after reading @rlw6534 s post I tried it with my L&P W2 USB DAC/AMP and it works as soon as I force Dolby Atmos to „always“ in the settings. I can also switch this setting on the fly during playback and it is very noticeable. 

It was me complaining about the Blink-182 song. Two reasons, 

1st I love Blink-182 and think it is a shame to present this nice song in such a bad way and 
2nd I think there are currently better and worse sounding tracks with Dolby Atmos but this special song is atrocious.


----------



## rlw6534

Thomaswa said:


> I am confused, are we able to play Dolby Atmos on external DAC and wired headphones? Im guessing no? If i check the "Always on" box, it wont show the Dolby logo when using an external DAC.


It works on iOS but not on Macs.   If you check the "always on" on iOS, it changes the tag icon to Atmos and you can hear spatial audio, but on a Mac it will only say "Lossless" no matter how the "always on" switch is set.


----------



## rlw6534

Sandwiches said:


> Does it show the "Lossless" badge instead of the Dolby Logo?



Yes, on a Mac, it stays on "Lossless".


----------



## Sandwiches

OK, I have it figured out. "Automatic" Atmos setting means it only plays Atmos on Apple gear. If you switch to "Always On," it defaults to Atmos whenever possible on any gear. In "Automatic" mode, it defaults to Lossless for external DAC/Amp.

I'm glad Apple is honoring the audiophile community by making these settings complicated enough to screw up.


----------



## Thomaswa

Thank you for the answers, figured it out on my ipad.

Yeah, Dolby seems hit or miss right now. Really sweet on some newer songs, but not convincing on some other stuff. 
Im liking the lossless option a lot though, Spotify got some catching up to do.


----------



## Sandwiches

The Band in Atmos is freakishly great. Feeding it to a Chord Mojo via AirPlay and using Focal Clear... You get the (simulated) soundstage of HD800/Arya combined with the punch of the Focals. It's not as rich and buttery as hi-res music but it's very impressive and fun in its own right


----------



## RamGuy

With iOS 15 Developer BETA1 I also have the option to simulate Dolby Atmos / Spatial Audio on things that are not Dolby Atmos. Even this works surprisingly well for music but makes all other kind of content horrendous. Podcasts and pretty much any kind of spoken word will have way too much reverb. Good thing its rather easy and quick to toggle it in the control center but even with it being this easy I will most likely just forget about it and have it disabled.


----------



## Chesty

tomwoo said:


> It would be very disappointing if Apple chose not to implement bit-perfect playback like Amazon Music. But I think it should be very easy for them to do that because Core audio was developed by Apple after all...


Other hi-res players (e.g. Audirvana) have the ability to automatically set the audio format for each album in Audio MIDI, before sending the signal to an external DAC, so I am certainly expecting an update of Music for Macs that will do the same.  It's painful otherwise having to manually adjust the format for each album in Audio Mini before playing it on Music.


----------



## Chesty

Further to my previous post above, I spoke directly with Apple Support and asked them which setting in Apple Music (for Mac) would automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI? They did not know and have bumped the query up the line.  I will follow up with them tomorrow to hear their response.


----------



## Stevko (Jun 9, 2021)

think I will try apple music with 24/192Khz.
will all ios device with right iOS and camera adapter decode 24/192Khz? without issues/dropouts etc...


----------



## Luis Mad (Jun 9, 2021)

Stevko said:


> think I will try apple music with 24/192Khz.
> will all ios device with right iOS and camera adapter decode 24/192Khz?


You need an Iphone or IPad that is capable of updating to IOS 14.6. My IPhone XR does. I have an old iPhone 5 that does not. Same here with recent IPad, does, and older, does not. Then you need the camera adapter and a dac that can handle 24/192. My Dragonfly Black goes up to 24/96.
From what I have seen so far, most hires files are 96, very few 192.
Hope it helps!


----------



## Kiats

Alternatively, you can go to Amazon, AliExpress or Taobao, where you will find plenty of USB C or lightning cables with different connectors from USB B, USB C, RCA coaxial, AES, depending on what your DAC requires.


----------



## Stevko (Jun 9, 2021)

already have an iphone,camera adapter and dac.
using qobus today. but it pops when playing hires with pc or iphone and Chromecast.
not tried qobus with cable and camera adapter yet


----------



## Currawong

I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect. 

If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html


----------



## CharlyBrown

Currawong said:


> I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.
> 
> If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html


Done, I just copied the main part of your post into my request for convenience

„Please add automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.“

Thanks!


----------



## Finger Fish

Currawong said:


> I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.
> 
> If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html


Is this just for Desktop? Is the iPhone bit perfect? Wonder if they'd do it on Android phones. I'm assuming on DAPs like the M11 it would bypass SRC anyway.


----------



## tomwoo

Currawong said:


> I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.
> 
> If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html


I think a lot of people did that for Amazon music but to no avail. Hopefully Apple is different (cue think different ad  ).



Chesty said:


> Further to my previous post above, I spoke directly with Apple Support and asked them which setting in Apple Music (for Mac) would automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI? They did not know and have bumped the query up the line.  I will follow up with them tomorrow to hear their response.


I doubt a regular tech support person would even know what you were talking about  
Let's hope Apple get this 'easy' task done!


----------



## ThePeave

Currawong said:


> I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.
> 
> If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html



I just submitted the feedback to Apple about this. I've been keeping an eye on Apple's and Spotify's lossless options, but I will be sticking with Tidal until either of them are able to correctly implement automatic sample and bit rate matching with an exclusive mode, as Tidal's application does this seamlessly on the Mac.


----------



## Luis Mad

I have my Apple TV4K connected to my tv with Hdmi and the Tv connected to my Yamaha preamp by optical toslink. Then the preamp to my old Denon amp and B&W speakers. I have been trying the combination with a few lossless tracks from Apple music (the Apple Tv does not do hires) and I was very positively impressed. Looking forward to have the whole catalog in lossless!
Also looking forward to the Android version of Apple Music for my A&K SR25 dap and to the PC version of Apple Music, I guess an updated Itunes?


----------



## Sandwiches

There is no sign they will bring anything to PC iTunes or Android yet :/


----------



## UNOE

As the Darko post said. This is truly a mess.  I'm guess it eventually gets fixed but probably need to wait a year or two to have proper sample rate switching on all platforms.


----------



## Tooros

I’ve had blue lights, green lights and red lights on my mojo fed by iPhone. It all sounds great. Im not convinced on the selectable options yet or the spacial audio thing. The Marvin Gaye demo did sound good but some quick browsing of others not so much. More fun playing due. So far, as a subscriber to both tidal for me and Apple Music for family - I’m happy to be saving the cost of tidal from now on.

Android music app is still unchanged on my HiBy though. Intrigued how that’s going to work.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Tooros said:


> I’ve had blue lights, green lights and red lights on my mojo fed by iPhone. It all sounds great. Im not convinced on the selectable options yet or the spacial audio thing. The Marvin Gaye demo did sound good but some quick browsing of others not so much. More fun playing due. So far, as a subscriber to both tidal for me and Apple Music for family - I’m happy to be saving the cost of tidal from now on.



Same. Still I think Tidal is really good as it gives good suggestions but I also love Apple Music and now with lossless at no additional cost it is a no-brained for me, moving to AM 100%. I will also cancel Spotify although I love the canvas feature but can’t justify paying 10 Euros per month just for this. 

Apple Music Family subscription is such a bargain now.


----------



## Sandwiches

Tooros said:


> I’ve had blue lights, green lights and red lights on my mojo fed by iPhone. It all sounds great. Im not convinced on the selectable options yet or the spacial audio thing. The Marvin Gaye demo did sound good but some quick browsing of others not so much. More fun playing due. So far, as a subscriber to both tidal for me and Apple Music for family - I’m happy to be saving the cost of tidal from now on.


It sounds great on my Mojo, too. I use a Poly, and the new lossless sounds amazing via AirPlay (even if you only get a red light). A huge relief as Poly has been a headache to use until now.



Tooros said:


> Android music app is still unchanged on my HiBy though. Intrigued how that’s going to work.


There's no sign that they are going to do any of this for Android or PC yet. You may want to switch to Tidal or Qobuz if you want to use the HiBy.


----------



## Tooros

Sandwiches said:


> There's no sign that they are going to do any of this for Android or PC yet. You may want to switch to Tidal or Qobuz if you want to use the HiBy.


Really? I assumed it was Apple Music. Not Apple Music on iOS. Surely it’ll happen?


----------



## brif

Sandwiches said:


> There's no sign that they are going to do any of this for Android or PC yet. You may want to switch to Tidal or Qobuz if you want to use the HiBy.





Tooros said:


> Really? I assumed it was Apple Music. Not Apple Music on iOS. Surely it’ll happen?


It seems pretty certain that is coming to the Android app. Switches for lossless have been spotted in the APK (back in May). Apple will switch it on at some point soon.


----------



## jamesofla80

Does anyone know if using an iPad with CCK USB, is a poorer signal. Than going direct to a MacBook Pro with USB?


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Currawong said:


> I strongly recommend as many people as possible give feedback to Apple and ask them for automated music sample- and bit-rate matching with the Core Audio output, as well as "exclusive output mode" so that the output to devices from Apple Music is bit-perfect.
> 
> If many people request it, then it is more likely to happen. You can give feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-music.html


Man I honestly cannot believe Apple failed so thoroughly here. They literally built the APIs for this and just decided not to use them.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

It’s already been reported that lossless/hi-res will come to Android, but Dolby Atmos will not.


----------



## visanj

Luis Mad said:


> I have my Apple TV4K connected to my tv with Hdmi and the Tv connected to my Yamaha preamp by optical toslink. Then the preamp to my old Denon amp and B&W speakers. I have been trying the combination with a few lossless tracks from Apple music (the Apple Tv does not do hires) and I was very positively impressed. Looking forward to have the whole catalog in lossless!
> Also looking forward to the Android version of Apple Music for my A&K SR25 dap and to the PC version of Apple Music, I guess an updated Itunes?



Can you tell me how did you get lossless in Apple TV 4k and how did you confirm that is lossless? I'm also using Apple TV 4K but I cannot see any indication of lossless


----------



## theory_87

Stevko said:


> think I will try apple music with 24/192Khz.
> will all ios device with right iOS and camera adapter decode 24/192Khz? without issues/dropouts etc...


So far, I have chance upon 2 24/192khz soungs. Hotel California and Colour of the Wind.


----------



## mammal

tomwoo said:


> I doubt a regular tech support person would even know what you were talking about


You would hope they have an extensive internal documentation available to their frontline, or a well optimised process of escalating questions to the backline, in case someone doesn’t have a good answer for a customer.


----------



## Stevko

theory_87 said:


> So far, I have chance upon 2 24/192khz soungs. Hotel California and Colour of the Wind.


Which ios unit are u using?


----------



## Sandwiches

brif said:


> It seems pretty certain that is coming to the Android app. Switches for lossless have been spotted in the APK (back in May). Apple will switch it on at some point soon.





CANiSLAYu said:


> It’s already been reported that lossless/hi-res will come to Android, but Dolby Atmos will not.


Glad to hear I am wrong about this!


----------



## Luis Mad

visanj said:


> Can you tell me how did you get lossless in Apple TV 4k and how did you confirm that is lossless? I'm also using Apple TV 4K but I cannot see any indication of lossless


To get lossless in the AppleTv4K go to settings - apps- music- sound quality- you can choose either AAC 256 or lossless up to 24/48 (No hires)
There in music you can also choose Dolby Atmos  -Yes or no.
Hope it helps!

Once activated files either come with no indication (not updated to lossless yet) or with lossless indication. For example Abbado Brahms 4 Symphonies, when you have the screen where it shows the line from left to right of what is being played, you have an indication in the low right side that says lossless. If you click it you see the quality of the file being played, in this case 16/44. In the case Of Chailly Brahms the Symphonies it says 24/48, this one is hires in my Iphone (24/96). Anyway I believe there is a clear sound improvement with lossless in the Appletv4k.
My Yamaha preamp WXC-50 indicates the quality in the optical input when playing something. From the computer, I have tried with Amazon HD, it goes up to 192 khz. It always says 48 khz when playing anything from AppleTv. I read somewhere that the AppleTv upsamples everything to 48 khz. Is that right?


----------



## RamGuy (Jun 10, 2021)

I think Dolby Atmos has great potential. But for it to really work the artist and the studio has to put time and effort into it making sense. And I'm doubtful this will be the case in the long run unless Dolby Atmos and Spatial Audio become the norm in the industry as a whole. Why would artists and studios spend time and effort on this if they could just toss out music that is flat and could basically be played back mono as compared to stereo without any noticeable differences, still hit various top lists and get tons of playback?

I'm sure some artists and studios care a lot more about soundstage, clever tricks and technology than others and will use this to their advantage and thus create some really awesome and new with Dolby Atmos. But I fear that most will just keep on pumping out music that barely utilises the stereo perspective and calls it a day. Sure they might pump out a "Dolby Atmos" version as well but the minimum effort will be put into it and in most cases, it will just sound less balanced overall compared to simply playing the track in stereo or even mono.

So far the list of tracks that feel enhanced with Dolby Atmos is rather small. And some genres don't really benefit from having a wider soundstage all that much. I love wide soundstages, that's why I love my Sennheiser HD800S's but some genres benefit more from the wider soundstage than others and some barely benefit at all. Genres like Hippop, Metal/Rock works very well in more V-shaped audio where the soundstage becomes more narrow and in your head compared to being wider and spacesious. While genres like Jazz, Classical and tracks that utilise orchestras tend to benefit a lot by having a greater soundstage. Some tracks with orchestras that aren't even available in Dolby Atmos sound better to me when I enable the "Spatialise Stereo" on my AirPods Max which basically takes the stereo version and tries to upsample it to Dolby Atmos. The major drawback is how the vocals become less pronounced, but everything else tends to sound better for me even when Dolby Atmos is simply emulated on a stereo track. For music with an orchestra that is.

EDIT:

I have to agree with Apple on the notion that for some Dolby Atmos will feel less natural because it's different. Tracks that are really utilising Dolby Atmos have many things going on making me focus less on the music. But I feel this is more about me not being used to the format and what it offers and not about it being worse.


----------



## theory_87

Stevko said:


> Which ios unit are u using?


I'm using ios 14.6 on my iphone 6s and iphone 12 mini.


----------



## Whitigir

If MQA is a thing then will Apple Music offer MQA ? Tehehe


----------



## CharlyBrown

jamesofla80 said:


> Does anyone know if using an iPad with CCK USB, is a poorer signal. Than going direct to a MacBook Pro with USB?


You will get the full joy through CCK USB, no matter if you are using the stock Apple cable or 3rd party. At the end of the day even with maxed out High-Res Lossless Bitrate, it is only a relatively small data stream that goes through the line compared to other stuff we are doing on computers today.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Whitigir said:


> If MQA is a thing then will Apple Music offer MQA ? Tehehe


Haha.. still, MQA was a smart marketing move by Tidal, having all the audio equipment manufacturers pointing out they support it etc. very good move. The latest development at Apple Music must be shocking to the guys at Tidal.


----------



## Currawong

Apple's Eddy Cue said something in an interview: 


> This is not a simple “take-the-file that you have in stereo, processes through this software application and out comes Dolby Atmos.” This requires somebody who’s a sound engineer, and the artist to sit back and listen, and really make the right calls and what the right things to do are. It’s a process that takes time, but it’s worth it.


That sounds like a stab at MQA, which is batch-converting TIDAL's catalog. So much for "authenticated".


----------



## Stevko

https://darko.audio/2021/06/the-best-way-to-stream-hi-res-audio-from-apple-music/


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Stevko said:


> https://darko.audio/2021/06/the-best-way-to-stream-hi-res-audio-from-apple-music/


Once the Android app is updated to support lossless Android-based DAPs that bypass Android’s SRC should work for hi-res too.


----------



## Whitigir

CANiSLAYu said:


> Once the Android app is updated to support lossless Android-based DAPs that bypass Android’s SRC should work for hi-res too.


There are many of them atm


----------



## Finger Fish

CANiSLAYu said:


> Once the Android app is updated to support lossless Android-based DAPs that bypass Android’s SRC should work for hi-res too.


Yeah I'm super excited to try Apple Music on my new M11 Plus when possible!


----------



## Skrilla 009

Made the switch from Spotify to AM....haven't tried Atmos or SA yet but honestly the lossless sounds much better compared to Spotify, like there's a slightly fuller sound to it. Idk if this stems from the master they use or lossless itself, but its hella solid. Having access to deluxe albums that weren't available on Spotify and music videos is a nice plus


----------



## myromeo

CANiSLAYu said:


> Once the Android app is updated to support lossless Android-based DAPs that bypass Android’s SRC should work for hi-res too.


Do we think apple will do this tho? Would be great if they did!


----------



## CANiSLAYu

myromeo said:


> Do we think apple will do this tho? Would be great if they did!


Yes, it’s already confirmed. Code in the Android app is how it was even leaked that Apple Music lossless was coming well in advance of the launch.


----------



## UNOE

Pure pcm like qubuz. Sounding great so far no unfolding. 

I'm sure some people might not know this yet. But one of the strong points of AM is that if your missing a album and you have the disc or lossless files to it you can upload it to iCloud library, then listen to your rare lossless album away from the home with cellular data. There has always been a few rare CD's that I could not find on the Tidal. That I have to listen to lossy formats on the go or add the files to a phone. But now I can just added them to the iCloud music library, manually and have access anywhere.


----------



## Chesty

Chesty said:


> Further to my previous post above, I spoke directly with Apple Support and asked them which setting in Apple Music (for Mac) would automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI? They did not know and have bumped the query up the line.  I will follow up with them tomorrow to hear their response.


I must say that Apple have been very attentive with my query.  I have had three subsequent calls with Apple, each time speaking to someone further up the line.  In the last call, I made a video screen capture as I walked through the issue.  The video shows how Audirvana is able to automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI Setup, whereas Apple Music is not.  The Apple rep said he would forward the video to the Apple Music team in HQ, and would revert back to me next week.  I am just looking for an acknowledgment of this issue, and a commitment that Apple Music for Mac will be updated to address this.  The rep said that, if Audirvana can do this, then Apple Music should also be able to do this!


----------



## A Jedi

Chesty said:


> I must say that Apple have been very attentive with my query.  I have had three subsequent calls with Apple, each time speaking to someone further up the line.  In the last call, I made a video screen capture as I walked through the issue.  The video shows how Audirvana is able to automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI Setup, whereas Apple Music is not.  The Apple rep said he would forward the video to the Apple Music team in HQ, and would revert back to me next week.  I am just looking for an acknowledgment of this issue, and a commitment that Apple Music for Mac will be updated to address this.  The rep said that, if Audirvana can do this, then Apple Music should also be able to do this!



Since you're fixing Apple Music, can you ask them to add UPnP so I can stream to my streamer (Airplay is limited resolution)


----------



## UNOE

A Jedi said:


> Since you're fixing Apple Music, can you ask them to add UPnP so I can stream to my streamer (Airplay is limited resolution)


Ask them to add LDAC and Aptx HD on iOS too.


----------



## theory_87

UNOE said:


> Pure pcm like qubuz. Sounding great so far no unfolding.
> 
> I'm sure some people might not know this yet. But one of the strong points of AM is that if your missing a album and you have the disc or lossless files to it you can upload it to iCloud library, then listen to your rare lossless album away from the home with cellular data. There has always been a few rare CD's that I could not find on the Tidal. That I have to listen to lossy formats on the go or add the files to a phone. But now I can just added them to the iCloud music library, manually and have access anywhere.


Agree. However, I'm not sure of the quality of the songs that I uploaded to the icloud library since the songs i uploaded is in 16/42khz. If it was convert to 256kbps AAC, i have no telling as my 2Qute will still be lighting up in the same red colour. You got any insight to this?


----------



## Luis Mad

I have managed to hear today 24/192 in Apple Music. Ipad to camera adapter, usb cable to Sony Nwa55L in dac mode. It works perfectly. Lossless is already fantastic, doubt I can hear a difference with hires.


----------



## myromeo

CANiSLAYu said:


> Yes, it’s already confirmed. Code in the Android app is how it was even leaked that Apple Music lossless was coming well in advance of the launch.


Is that confirmed they’ll be using direct mode on supported DAC’s to bypass android completely or that lossless 24/48 will be available via android audio stack? If they’re going the direct route (as UAPP does) Then that’s incredibly good news. Also a little amusing that a third party android DAP will be more capable than the current Apple devices without additional hardware. Fingers crossed!


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> Is that confirmed they’ll be using direct mode on supported DAC’s to bypass android completely or that lossless 24/48 will be available via android audio stack? If they’re going the direct route (as UAPP does) Then that’s incredibly good news. Also a little amusing that a third party android DAP will be more capable than the current Apple devices without additional hardware. Fingers crossed!



I don't think anyone knows about direct mode yet, but we can hope...


----------



## Soundizer

Thought I would try it out, but with intention to canceling after my 1 month free. Reason is i am a long term fan of Tidal and do like MQA. using ifi Diablo DAC/AMP and variety of £1000+ headphones.

Right the difference is shocking between Apple MUSIC lossless and the same MQA Albums on TIDAL. In most cases Apple Music sounded allot better - cleaner, more details and mostly less harsh/sibilant.

was not expecting this.

canceling Tidal.

also check out this video review by Abyss


----------



## Pro-Jules

Recording engineers are discussing it here. Taylor Swift's mixing engineer / producer included. 

https://gearspace.com/board/new-pro...will-bring-lossless-audio-entire-catalog.html


----------



## Pro-Jules

Luis Mad said:


> I have managed to hear today 24/192 in Apple Music. Ipad to camera adapter, usb cable to Sony Nwa55L in dac mode. It works perfectly. Lossless is already fantastic, doubt I can hear a difference with hires.


I tried that artist. 192k in AM and Qobuz 6G cellular reception. 

 AM allowed me to skip forwards better. Qobuz didn't like being started mid track much. 

iPhone - THX Onyx dongle


----------



## iamoneagain

Chesty said:


> I must say that Apple have been very attentive with my query.  I have had three subsequent calls with Apple, each time speaking to someone further up the line.  In the last call, I made a video screen capture as I walked through the issue.  The video shows how Audirvana is able to automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI Setup, whereas Apple Music is not.  The Apple rep said he would forward the video to the Apple Music team in HQ, and would revert back to me next week.  I am just looking for an acknowledgment of this issue, and a commitment that Apple Music for Mac will be updated to address this.  The rep said that, if Audirvana can do this, then Apple Music should also be able to do this!


How did you first contact Apple?  Not sure if it’s been mention on this forum but Naim tech found out that Apple Music is not lossless thru AirPlay. Even though it shows lossless on the app, it’s actually outputting the signal as aac before it goes out thru AirPlay. AirPlay can handle up to 24/48 but Apple Music is streaming at 16/44 aac thru AirPlay. Other apps can stream lossless up to 24/48.

Not sure if this was something overlooked or just not updated yet since since they actually never mention AirPlay and talk of HomePod getting lossless update in the near future.


----------



## MayaTlab

UNOE said:


> Ask them to add LDAC and Aptx HD on iOS too.



I'd rather have them simply use a higher bitrate version of AAC. Both LDAC and aptX are less sophisticated.


----------



## Chesty

iamoneagain said:


> How did you first contact Apple?  Not sure if it’s been mention on this forum but Naim tech found out that Apple Music is not lossless thru AirPlay. Even though it shows lossless on the app, it’s actually outputting the signal as aac before it goes out thru AirPlay. AirPlay can handle up to 24/48 but Apple Music is streaming at 16/44 aac thru AirPlay. Other apps can stream lossless up to 24/48.
> 
> Not sure if this was something overlooked or just not updated yet since since they actually never mention AirPlay and talk of HomePod getting lossless update in the near future.


Through Apple's website - selected Music then Get Support.  I went about it by simply asking what setting in Music would make Music automatically set the the audio format in Audio Midi Setup.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

myromeo said:


> Is that confirmed they’ll be using direct mode on supported DAC’s to bypass android completely or that lossless 24/48 will be available via android audio stack? If they’re going the direct route (as UAPP does) Then that’s incredibly good news. Also a little amusing that a third party android DAP will be more capable than the current Apple devices without additional hardware. Fingers crossed!


Unknown, but my guess would be unlikely. Android app on phones will probably behave like Amazon HD and be 24/48 and won’t play with UAPP. So that leaves only the DAPs that bypass SRC.


----------



## Sandwiches

iamoneagain said:


> How did you first contact Apple?  Not sure if it’s been mention on this forum but Naim tech found out that Apple Music is not lossless thru AirPlay. Even though it shows lossless on the app, it’s actually outputting the signal as aac before it goes out thru AirPlay. AirPlay can handle up to 24/48 but Apple Music is streaming at 16/44 aac thru AirPlay. Other apps can stream lossless up to 24/48.
> 
> Not sure if this was something overlooked or just not updated yet since since they actually never mention AirPlay and talk of HomePod getting lossless update in the near future.


Yeah, AirPlay has always made my Chord Mojo+Poly light up red (16/44), never orange (24/48). I have always wondered about that. Seems like Apple is using "Lossless" as a euphemism to mean CD Quality. I'm finding it hard to care because it sounds so good.


----------



## iamoneagain

Sandwiches said:


> Yeah, AirPlay has always made my Chord Mojo+Poly light up red (16/44), never orange (24/48). I have always wondered about that. Seems like Apple is using "Lossless" as a euphemism to mean CD Quality. I'm finding it hard to care because it sounds so good.



Well this is even worse since Apple Music is not even doing true 16/44 over AirPlay but compressed aac. The lossless selection in settings hasn’t been applied to AirPlay streaming yet. 

But yeah AirPlay 2 needs an update. Chromecast can do up to 24/192 on some systems so no reason AirPlay can’t be updated as well.


----------



## Sandwiches (Jun 14, 2021)

Deleted


----------



## UNOE

theory_87 said:


> Agree. However, I'm not sure of the quality of the songs that I uploaded to the icloud library since the songs i uploaded is in 16/42khz. If it was convert to 256kbps AAC, i have no telling as my 2Qute will still be lighting up in the same red colour. You got any insight to this?


If you upload it redbook alac. It will show up as lossless when you play a track click the lossless icon. 
Even some very old alac I uploaded few years ago showed up as lossless and I know for sure these albums are not on AM.
I haven’t tried uploading a 96kHz album yet.


----------



## Pro-Jules (Jun 11, 2021)

MayaTlab said:


> I'd rather have them simply use a higher bitrate version of AAC. Both LDAC and aptX are less sophisticated.


On the way is my guess. 

Then a new batch of headphones users will have to buy to use it! 

(Or are the M1 chip headphones able to be upgraded?)


----------



## UNOE

MayaTlab said:


> I'd rather have them simply use a higher bitrate version of AAC. Both LDAC and aptX are less sophisticated.


That would be fine if they also allow LDAC and aptx. Otherwise it’s the same old locking there system to there own eco system stinkery.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 11, 2021)

Sandwiches said:


> How compressed did the Naim device say the AirPlay audio is? If it's compressing it below CD quality I'd be surprised because it sounds a lot better than the old Apple Music (on a Chord device and fancy headphones). Also better than Tidal Hi-Fi over AirPlay when I tried some A/B tests with the same gear.
> 
> I doubt an AirPlay update is coming. Apple is downplaying Lossless/Hi-Res in all of their public statements. They are very content to make billions of dollars selling bluetooth AirPod devices to the world, hence the emphasis on Atmos



They showed it’s being sent as 256 aac. As said this is not an AirPlay issue, but an issue with the settings of Apple Music and AirPlay. Directly connected, Apple is putting out lossless and hires. The assumption was we could at least use AirPlay to get lossless sound quality now. I’ve compared to Amazon Music, and their quality match roon/Qobuz for cd level.

Just mention, Naim doesn’t currently show the bit rate of the files. A Naim tech chimed in with detailed screenshots of what was going on behind the scenes. And then in roon forum, other users also showed on different streamers with bit rate shown that same thing was happening. So wasn’t an issue with Naim but Apple Music itself.


----------



## Sandwiches (Jun 14, 2021)

Deleted


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 11, 2021)

Sandwiches said:


> Reading the Roon thread. Seems like the AAC/AirPlay issue is confined to the macOS app rather than iOS or iPadOS?




Hmm, I’ll have to re-read but I got that it was both mac and iPhone/iPad. I clearly could hear from the iPhone that songs didn’t sound as good as roon.

Just looked at the Naim forum and the tech does not say anything about this issue being limited to only the mac. Just says it’s an issue with Apple Music. If they make a change to the software, should be able to get 16/44 to work. Anything higher would require AirPlay to be updated. 

So if using other apps to stream thu AirPlay, can at least get 16/44 right now.


----------



## Sandwiches (Jun 14, 2021)

deleted


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 11, 2021)

Sandwiches said:


> That's pretty unconvincing. They are completely different apps and AirPlay on iOS is always system-wide. People on Roon forum are saying Mac is playing ALAC if AirPlay is sent as the OS audio output. If you switch from high quality to lossless on iPhone AirPlay the difference is apparent.



So I’m going to assume it’s just iOS related. I’ll test from my new iMac later to see if sounds any different. The issue is I’d never play from my iMac to my headphone setup. I’d be using iPad or iPhone, so this doesn’t solve current situation. Or do you want have this backwards? 

I’ll try playing with settings on iPhone first.


----------



## Sandwiches

To be clear this is using a Chord streamer/dac with HifiMAN Arya. I'm sure I would not be able to tell the difference on HomePod or Sonos. Those systems use their own DSP anyway


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 11, 2021)

Sandwiches said:


> To be clear this is using a Chord streamer/dac with HifiMAN Arya. I'm sure I would not be able to tell the difference on HomePod or Sonos. Those systems use their own DSP anyway



I still don’t believe Apple Music on the iPhone is lossless over AirPlay. Amazon Music clearly sounds better with more reverb, space, and air to the music. But couldn’t hear any difference between lossless and high quality setting on the iPhone for Apple Music. I’m listening with Focal Uptopia’s with Danacable Reference Lazuli cable and Naim Uniti Atom HE. I used to have Chord Dave/mscaler setup, so I know how the units compare to each other.

I’m using track “Cold Days from the Birdhouse” from Twilight Sad. Listen to the the guitar in the beginning and listen for the space around it. It’s clearly better with Amazon track. More sparkle and reverb. And next track with the drums is even easier to hear difference.


----------



## Sterling2 (Jun 11, 2021)

I am enjoying Apple Lossless via iTunes running on a 7+ iPhone connected to Airport Express, which is connected to my Parasound P6 preamp's DAC.. Of course, the Airport Express down samples the up to 24/48 streams to 16/44.1. To enjoy 24/192 I will need to connect my iPhone to the Parasound via Lightning to usb C. I am hoping iTunes on my laptop will eventually be updated to receive and transmit hi-res streams and downloads from Apple Music by means of usb from laptop to Parasound.  Regarding Spatial Audio, I connected my laptop to my OPPO via HDMI thinking perhaps I could stream or download Spatial Audio music from iTunes but all Spatial Audio is still delivered in stereo at 256k AAC. Looks like I will therefore need to buy an Apple TV and hook it up to the OPPO.


----------



## UNOE

Sterling2 said:


> I am enjoying Apple Lossless via iTunes running on a 7+ iPhone connected to Airport Express, which is connected to my Parasound P6 preamp's DAC.. Of course, the Airport Express down samples the up to 24/48 streams to 16/44.1. To enjoy 24/192 I will need to connect my iPhone to the Parasound via Lightning to usb C. I am hoping iTunes on my laptop will eventually be updated to receive and transmit hi-res streams and downloads from Apple Music by means of usb from laptop to Parasound.  Regarding Spatial Audio, I connected my laptop to my OPPO via HDMI thinking perhaps I could stream or download Spatial Audio music from iTunes but all Spatial Audio is still delivered in stereo at 256k AAC. Looks like I will therefore need to buy an Apple TV and hook it up to the OPPO.


I would wait on buying appletv. Im sure more devices will be updated shortly. My lg native apps support Atmos for Tidal. But it took about a month.


----------



## Knightsfan11

Sterling2 said:


> I am enjoying Apple Lossless via iTunes running on a 7+ iPhone connected to Airport Express, which is connected to my Parasound P6 preamp's DAC.. Of course, the Airport Express down samples the up to 24/48 streams to 16/44.1. To enjoy 24/192 I will need to connect my iPhone to the Parasound via Lightning to usb C. I am hoping iTunes on my laptop will eventually be updated to receive and transmit hi-res streams and downloads from Apple Music by means of usb from laptop to Parasound.  Regarding Spatial Audio, I connected my laptop to my OPPO via HDMI thinking perhaps I could stream or download Spatial Audio music from iTunes but all Spatial Audio is still delivered in stereo at 256k AAC. Looks like I will therefore need to buy an Apple TV and hook it up to the OPPO.


If you can afford it, highly recommend getting an Apple TV. Mine is the center of my media usage. If you have other Apple devices, like iPhone or iPad, it just integrates so easily & well.


----------



## Holdmyown83

Now I see why the redditors talk about y’all so much.


----------



## theory_87

UNOE said:


> If you upload it redbook alac. It will show up as lossless when you play a track click the lossless icon.
> Even some very old alac I uploaded few years ago showed up as lossless and I know for sure these albums are not on AM.
> I haven’t tried uploading a 96kHz album yet.


Hmmm. Album that i have upload as redbook alac did not show lossless icon. Even some of the online songs that i down it not show lossless icon. Tried redownload and still the same


----------



## GRUMPYOLDGUY

So has anyone tried generating a spectrogram for lossless and high res audio yet?


----------



## UNOE

theory_87 said:


> Hmmm. Album that i have upload as redbook alac did not show lossless icon. Even some of the online songs that i down it not show lossless icon. Tried redownload and still the same


Mine took a few hours then it said lossless


----------



## jonmbarlow

Can you get Apple Hi-Res on the Ibasso DX300?


----------



## SLMStyles

jonmbarlow said:


> Can you get Apple Hi-Res on the Ibasso DX300?


Should be able to soon. Not a limitation of the player.  Apple just hasn’t released lossless in the android app yet.


----------



## PopZeus

I just dropped Tidal in favor of the amazon music HD trial. If Apple ever decides they want my business, they'll bring full feature parity to their android app, and open up their API so that more devices (like the Bluesound Node 2i) can be an Apple Music endpoint. Otherwise, it'll be pretty clear they mean to position Apple Music for the faithful and not much else.


----------



## Tooros

Dolby Atmos. 

‘Been playing with it this morning.  Cycling the same tracks with it on/off/automatic etc.
Not using Apple headphones.

I’m pretty sure I won’t be using it.
Seems a weird priority choice but, enabling it lowers the clarity and detail of a high res master.  Try ‘abbey road’ and see.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Tooros said:


> Dolby Atmos.
> 
> ‘Been playing with it this morning.  Cycling the same tracks with it on/off/automatic etc.
> Not using Apple headphones.
> ...


I’m also not convinced and think many (or even most) of the DAtmos songs sound worse than stereo. Still, I do discovery sessions from time to time and created a playlist for good spatial audio songs. 

I will use this feature from time to time but I agree, it seems to limit dynamics, detail and clarity. But it sounds good/interesting on a few songs.


----------



## kkugel

I have lossless now and the songs are strongly edited. A lot of bassy songs have distorting bass like crazy. Highs are boosted and spatial info is also edited. I don't know how to measure this but the effects are massive for my library. Try "The Imperial Suite" from Star Wars Rogue, the bass is pure distortion


----------



## Tooros

CharlyBrown said:


> I’m also not convinced and think many (or even most) of the DAtmos songs sound worse than stereo. Still, I do discovery sessions from time to time and created a playlist for good spatial audio songs.
> 
> I will use this feature from time to time but I agree, it seems to limit dynamics, detail and clarity. But it sounds good/interesting on a few songs.


It’s a very clever way to get ‘more’ out of existing Air ***s - it really does work to some degree. But I’ll stick with lossless/high res stereo and a piece of copper I think.


----------



## Kankys

I'm listening to the Iphone12mini - FiiO Q3 - FiiO FH3 setup.  And I'm thinking of going to AM from Tidal's service.  Although I like Tidal, I don't even know why.  But the price, linking system all plays for AM when they have Hi Res.  I just tried Dolby Atmos, but I prefer the classic stereo.  I apologize for my English, I write from the Czech Republic.


----------



## Sandwiches

iamoneagain said:


> I still don’t believe Apple Music on the iPhone is lossless over AirPlay. Amazon Music clearly sounds better with more reverb, space, and air to the music. But couldn’t hear any difference between lossless and high quality setting on the iPhone for Apple Music. I’m listening with Focal Uptopia’s with Danacable Reference Lazuli cable and Naim Uniti Atom HE. I used to have Chord Dave/mscaler setup, so I know how the units compare to each other.
> 
> I’m using track “Cold Days from the Birdhouse” from Twilight Sad. Listen to the the guitar in the beginning and listen for the space around it. It’s clearly better with Amazon track. More sparkle and reverb. And next track with the drums is even easier to hear difference.


I've been listening a lot more tracks & A/B switching over AirPlay. I admit it: you're right and my first impression was wrong. When you switch via a wired connection on the Mojo w/ nice open backs, the sound gets wider and more dynamic. Over AirPlay the settings are the same. Makes sense given that Sonos' and Chord's marketing arms have been conspicuously silent about AM Lossless. Hopefully the HomePod update will improve things for all AirPlay devices but I suspect it won't.


----------



## kkugel

Guys, Apple Music is not true to source! I wonder when the first big Youtuber realizes


----------



## CharlyBrown

kkugel said:


> Guys, Apple Music is not true to source! I wonder when the first big Youtuber realizes


Could you elaborate please? Source?


----------



## kkugel

CharlyBrown said:


> Could you elaborate please? Source?


My listening tests above, try the song!


----------



## iamoneagain

kkugel said:


> My listening tests above, try the song!


How you hooking it up? Over AirPlay or turning on Spatial will both output at 256k aac. And Spatial does all other kinds of things to the music. Most are saying only sounds good on recent releases. I think only benefits cheap close headphone.  But people saying if use camera adapter and a dac, Apple Music is true to the source. Apple even says need direct connection.


----------



## utdeep

hmm - I have spatial turned off and lossless on (not hi res lossless).  "The Imperial Suite" from the Star Wars Rogue One sounds the same to me as the FLAC I have from the CD.


----------



## gerelmx1986

Can some one check if there is still the glitch on this album by using apple lossless. In AAC ot was present 

between tracks 18 and 25 is like a skip or scratch glitch


----------



## kkugel

utdeep said:


> hmm - I have spatial turned off and lossless on (not hi res lossless).  "The Imperial Suite" from the Star Wars Rogue One sounds the same to me as the FLAC I have from the CD.


How are you listening? I tried headphone out on a M1 macbook and a dac, both distorted my planars like crazy


----------



## kkugel

iamoneagain said:


> How you hooking it up? Over AirPlay or turning on Spatial will both output at 256k aac. And Spatial does all other kinds of things to the music. Most are saying only sounds good on recent releases. I think only benefits cheap close headphone.  But people saying if use camera adapter and a dac, Apple Music is true to the source. Apple even says need direct connection.


No spatial, direct on laptop out. Weird


----------



## Skrilla 009

How does the lossless on AM compared to Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer, etc? Just curious


----------



## brif

kkugel said:


> How are you listening? I tried headphone out on a M1 macbook and a dac, both distorted my planars like crazy


I just tried this track on my M1 MacBook Air. I tried the following methods with Focal Celestee (don't have planars with me atm):


Old school AAC (lossless not enabled) on MacBook 3.5 jack = no bass distortion detected
lossless to headphones on MacBook 3.5 jack (Audio MIDI can't be matched as the headphone jack is locked to 32 bit float) = no bass distortion detected
lossless to DX300 in USB DAC mode with Audio MIDI matched to the track (24/44.1) = no bass distortion detected
Qobuz to DX300 in USB DAC mode exclusive mode = I was unable to detect a difference between this and AM lossless
Are you sure you have enough power to drive the planars you are using?


----------



## Tooros

Skrilla 009 said:


> How does the lossless on AM compared to Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer, etc? Just curious


Honestly, for what it’s worth, I’m impressed and am hovering over saying it’s superior. Apple have always had amazing source as they’ve been able to hang for so long using just AAC. I’ve dropped tidal in favour.


----------



## iamoneagain

Skrilla 009 said:


> How does the lossless on AM compared to Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer, etc? Just curious



Wouldn’t they all be the same if using direct output if coming from same masters? Kind of the point of lossless. 

As said comparing Amazon to Apple over AirPlay is not a fair challenge since Apple is streaming lossy, so Amazon easily wins.


----------



## kkugel

brif said:


> I just tried this track on my M1 MacBook Air. I tried the following methods with Focal Celestee (don't have planars with me atm):
> 
> 
> Old school AAC (lossless not enabled) on MacBook 3.5 jack = no bass distortion detected
> ...


Yes, my DAC works perfectly on my phone and other computer


----------



## brif

kkugel said:


> Yes, my DAC works perfectly on my phone and other computer


Must be that Swiss internet then.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Tooros said:


> Honestly, for what it’s worth, I’m impressed and am hovering over saying it’s superior. Apple have always had amazing source as they’ve been able to hang for so long using just AAC. I’ve dropped tidal in favour.


To be honest, I couldn’t even tell any difference between regular Apple Music AAC and Tidal in the past if comparing 1:1 the same track, same source. It has been that good for years. And now with lossless / High-Res I have the good feeling of getting 100% the best possible material. No need for anything else for me too!


----------



## Sandwiches (Jun 14, 2021)

iamoneagain said:


> How you hooking it up? Over AirPlay or turning on Spatial will both output at 256k aac. And Spatial does all other kinds of things to the music. Most are saying only sounds good on recent releases. I think only benefits cheap close headphone.  But people saying if use camera adapter and a dac, Apple Music is true to the source. Apple even says need direct connection.


Spatial is working as intended, lossless Atmos requires a blu-ray or very advanced AVR and TV and streaming sources that don't yet exist.

It sounds great on Focal Clear (punch/dynamics of clear + binaural soundstage goes great together), but only if the song is mastered well. Some (many?) tracks they half-assed it or did a terrible job. The Band, Disclosure, Kraftwerk are examples of well-produced Atmos


----------



## Luis Mad

According to several users in Reddit, Apple Music in Android beta version 3.6 latest update just appeared with hi res and Dolby Atmos.
I am really hoping to get a working version for my Astell & Kern SR25.
Otherwise I am really happy with the hires and lossless of Apple Music. My Apple Tv is streaming lossless to my living room stereo. Very convenient and excellent sound. When I walk the dog, I use my Iphone with Bluetooth iems and really don’t hear any difference at all In that case with the lossy version.


----------



## kkugel

Luis Mad said:


> According to several users in Reddit, Apple Music in Android beta version 3.6 latest update just appeared with hi res and Dolby Atmos.
> I am really hoping to get a working version for my Astell & Kern SR25.
> Otherwise I am really happy with the hires and lossless of Apple Music. My Apple Tv is streaming lossless to my living room stereo. Very convenient and excellent sound. When I walk the dog, I use my Iphone with Bluetooth iems and really don’t hear any difference at all In that case with the lossy version.


Do you have a link? I have 3.6.0beta on my Android and no lossless to be found yet


----------



## Luis Mad

kkugel said:


> Do you have a link? I have 3.6.0beta on my Android and no lossless to be found yet


It seems it is starting in the US https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nzs4ya/dolby_atmos_on_android_available_now/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nzuwqb/latest_apple_music_beta_on_android_now_supports/
Also seems to include features:

Lossless
Dolby Atmos
Additional settings of "Auto, Manual, Off" for Crossfade
Now playback cache can be set upto 5GB. Earlier limit was 1GB


----------



## kkugel

Luis Mad said:


> It seems it is starting in the US https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nzs4ya/dolby_atmos_on_android_available_now/
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nzuwqb/latest_apple_music_beta_on_android_now_supports/
> Also seems to include features:
> ...


Thanks man! Beta is full now sadly, I just have the old apk. Now looking for someone to share the new apk


----------



## Tooros

Anyone have an idea how long it takes for beta to go to full release? Really intrigued to see how it looks (sounds  ) on Hiby.


----------



## kkugel

Tooros said:


> Anyone have an idea how long it takes for beta to go to full release? Really intrigued to see how it looks (sounds  ) on Hiby.


I uploaded it to apkmirror.com, install it with the SAI app while having the play store app deactivated for the installation. Got the new beta from someone and wanted to share


----------



## kkugel

I'm enjoying lossless on Android now and the quality is bananas....Qobuz and Tidal can shut down lol. Sounds like already upscaled with HQPlayer, better than my DSD recordings


----------



## Kankys

Personally, I like Deezer HiFi the most.  The sound quality will probably not be like the competition, but the community on the web, the application is all supr.


----------



## theory_87 (Jun 15, 2021)

Did android resample the files to 16bit/48khz?


----------



## rlw6534

Does anyone know what format Dolby Atmos is streaming?  As it appears that high-resolution and Atmos are mutually exclusive (one or the other), I suspect the Atmos tracks might still be 256 AAC rather than ALAC.  I haven't seen a clear answer anywhere yet.


----------



## Billyak

rlw6534 said:


> Does anyone know what format Dolby Atmos is streaming?  As it appears that high-resolution and Atmos are mutually exclusive (one or the other), I suspect the Atmos tracks might still be 256 AAC rather than ALAC.  I haven't seen a clear answer anywhere yet.


I am also assuming this. My chord mojo shows the red marble for 44.1 when playing Atmos but the correct colour for the hi Res files.


----------



## Luis Mad

Billyak said:


> I am also assuming this. My chord mojo shows the red marble for 44.1 when playing Atmos but the correct colour for the hi Res files.


My Dragonfly Black gets crazy with Atmos. The dac displays the correct colors with hi res but with Atmos it just gets stuck with the same color of the previously played file. No answer here


----------



## Tooros

I’d say it’s 256 AAC as it’s really designed, imho, to get more out of AirPods. I have nothing to measure with - just logical.


----------



## rlw6534

Luis Mad said:


> My Dragonfly Black gets crazy with Atmos. The dac displays the correct colors with hi res but with Atmos it just gets stuck with the same color of the previously played file. No answer here



Same here with my external DACs (stays stuck on previous rate).  If I start fresh though, they always say 44.1 kHz for Atmos.


----------



## Billyak

I am playing a 96khz track but my mojo is saying 192khz.


----------



## jonmbarlow

Downloaded the beta and using it on my Ibasso DX300…..I don’t see any options in the settings within the app to change audio quality, am I missing something? Or does it play spatial audio automatically?


----------



## jonmbarlow

Cancel that…..downloaded wrong apk


----------



## rlw6534 (Jun 15, 2021)

jonmbarlow said:


> Downloaded the beta and using it on my Ibasso DX300…..I don’t see any options in the settings within the app to change audio quality, am I missing something? Or does it play spatial audio automatically?



This one works (lossless and high-res, no atmos) on my Shanling M3X.  The build needs to be 1108.

https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/apple...pple-music-3-6-0-beta-3-android-apk-download/


----------



## kkugel

rlw6534 said:


> This one works (lossless and high-res, no atmos) on my Shanling M3X.  The build needs to be 1108.
> 
> https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/apple...pple-music-3-6-0-beta-3-android-apk-download/


That's the one I uploaded


----------



## rlw6534

kkugel said:


> That's the one I uploaded



Thanks for that!  I saw it on Reddit.


----------



## myromeo (Jun 15, 2021)

Just playing with the beta now on my NW-A105 and unfortunately this version is not using Direct mode and so goes the standard resolution route... To be honest looking at the code this beta needs some work, it causes a whole world of confusion trying to play high-res lossless. that said it appears a 24/96 track plays with high res streaming enabled (upscalled to 32/192)

Anyone know any 24/192 albums I could test?
Its a real shame they can't enable Direct playback for compatible DAPs


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> Just playing with the beta now on my NW-A105 and unfortunately this version is not using Direct mode and so goes the standard resolution route... To be honest looking at the code this beta needs some work, it causes a whole world of confusion trying to play high-res lossless. that said it appears a 24/96 track plays with high res streaming enabled (upscalled to 32/192)
> 
> Anyone know any 24/192 albums I could test?
> Its a real shame they can't enable Direct playback for compatible DAPs


Try this one:


----------



## HarveyLowis

myromeo said:


> Just playing with the beta now on my NW-A105 and unfortunately this version is not using Direct mode and so goes the standard resolution route... To be honest looking at the code this beta needs some work, it causes a whole world of confusion trying to play high-res lossless. that said it appears a 24/96 track plays with high res streaming enabled (upscalled to 32/192)
> 
> Anyone know any 24/192 albums I could test?
> Its a real shame they can't enable Direct playback for compatible DAPs


try x & y album by coldplay


----------



## kkugel

rlw6534 said:


> Try this one:


Works as 24/192 on Android for me.

Damn my upload has 2500 Downloads already😂 Nice that so many People can enjoy it now, I've been pulled in by Apple's Magic too


----------



## Kiats

myromeo said:


> Just playing with the beta now on my NW-A105 and unfortunately this version is not using Direct mode and so goes the standard resolution route... To be honest looking at the code this beta needs some work, it causes a whole world of confusion trying to play high-res lossless. that said it appears a 24/96 track plays with high res streaming enabled (upscalled to 32/192)
> 
> Anyone know any 24/192 albums I could test?
> Its a real shame they can't enable Direct playback for compatible DAPs


Try the Eagles albums.


----------



## Rob49

I received my Apple 4K TV box, yesterday. I must say I’m absolutely loving Apple Music & very pleased I subscribed.

Initial listening was through my surround set up & of course listening to Dolby Atmos, Hi Res Lossless, Lossless & I’m really impressed.

Finished the evening, listening via my Sony MDR-Z1R’s connected to my Sony TA-ZH1ES & it was a revelation, especially with Dolby Atmos, of course using the DSD Remastering.

Looking forward to many more new releases…


----------



## Soundizer

Rob49 said:


> I received my Apple 4K TV box, yesterday. I must say I’m absolutely loving Apple Music & very pleased I subscribed.
> 
> Initial listening was through my surround set up & of course listening to Dolby Atmos, Hi Res Lossless, Lossless & I’m really impressed.
> 
> ...


Is your Sony TAZH1ES connected to your TV via Optical.
If so does the TV do PCM stereo via Optical out as Sony TAZH1ES is not Dolby AV DAC/AMP.


----------



## Rob49 (Jun 16, 2021)

Soundizer said:


> Is your Sony TAZH1ES connected to your TV via Optical.
> If so does the TV do PCM stereo via Optical out as Sony TAZH1ES is not Dolby AV DAC/AMP.



I have my ipad connected to the TA via the USB-B port, using an Apple adapter. I’ve mainly played back this way. Of course I can play from the actual Apple box. So it’s connected via HDMI to my AVR. I’m not using any optical connection.

Whether this is the right way ? I’m not technically minded, but what I hear via speakers or headphones sounds excellent to me.


----------



## AlexCross

I was experiencing the same. Seems to be a common issue that Dolby Atmos is not working with USB-DACs. Too bad… 
https://piunikaweb.com/2021/06/11/s...s-in-apple-music-not-working-with-dac-on-mac/
Also the lossless icon next to the playing track sometimes disappears although the song is definitely lossless. Manually setting the bitrate in order to avoid up-/downsampling is a bit annoying.


----------



## myromeo

Well I've tried and man, 24/192 is a disaster on the NW-A105. The system does handle 24/192 correctly so be it via StdRes (Android audio route) so with high res streaming enabled should be able to do it however I suspect the buffer size apple have specified is insufficient for this device as it just can't keep up with streaming. It hangs every few seconds, utterly useless. It looks like they've used a buffer of 16k whereas UAPP needs 65k to be stable. I'll feed back to apple although that will likely fall on deaf ears.


----------



## gerelmx1986

gerelmx1986 said:


> Can some one check if there is still the glitch on this album by using apple lossless. In AAC ot was present
> 
> between tracks 18 and 25 is like a skip or scratch glitch


Has anyone tried looking at this? I dont want to use three month trial just to verify  this


----------



## Luis Mad (Jun 17, 2021)

Hi all, I continue experimenting with Apple Music and I am very pleased I must say. I have a windows 10 pc and I have installed an Android emulator Bluestacks 5, then with that I have installed the apkmirror app and with that I installed the Apple Music 3.6 beta for Android in my pc.
I works wonderfully and more importantly it sounds wonderfully. At first I had problems with the bigger files but increasing the size of the dedicated memory in the Apple Music seems to do the trick even with the 24/192 files.
I am looking forward to the final 3.6. version, but this installation seems to me the way to go with pc, much better than Itunes. 
Beta crashes sometimes.


----------



## Tooros

gerelmx1986 said:


> Has anyone tried looking at this? I dont want to use three month trial just to verify  this





gerelmx1986 said:


> Has anyone tried looking at this? I dont want to use three month trial just to verify  this


Give me 5 mins


----------



## Tooros

gerelmx1986 said:


> Has anyone tried looking at this? I dont want to use three month trial just to verify  this


This one right?


----------



## kkugel

Luis Mad said:


> Hi all, I continue experimenting with Apple Music and I am very pleased I must say. I have a windows 10 pc and I have installed an Android emulator Bluestacks 5, then with that I have installed the apkmirror app and with that I installed the Apple Music 3.6 beta for Android in my pc.
> I works wonderfully and more importantly it sounds wonderfully. At first I had problems with the bigger files but increasing the size of the dedicated memory in the Apple Music seems to do the trick even with the 24/192 files.
> I am looking forward to the final 3.6. version, but this installation seems to me the way to go with pc, much better than Itunes.
> Beta crashes sometimes.


You could just install Apple Music for Windows😄


----------



## gerelmx1986

kkugel said:


> You could just install Apple Music for Windows😄


Yes


----------



## gerelmx1986

Tooros said:


> This one right?


Yes that one


----------



## Tooros

gerelmx1986 said:


> Yes that one





gerelmx1986 said:


> Yes that one


Ok. So started at track 17 to be sure. Listened to the end of track 21. It just played seamlessly. I assume that’s enough as the reported errors was 18-25? This was reported as lossless using the Apple dongle. Not possible to connect to better DAC at the moment sorry. Hope that’s enough for you?


----------



## gerelmx1986

Tooros said:


> Ok. So started at track 17 to be sure. Listened to the end of track 21. It just played seamlessly. I assume that’s enough as the reported errors was 18-25? This was reported as lossless using the Apple dongle. Not possible to connect to better DAC at the moment sorry. Hope that’s enough for you?


Yes correct tracks 18 -25 

i purchased the album way back in 2012 from ITunes Store  as Aac 256 which was the format available at that time and it had glitches like skips or scratching at wood.

when i switched to lossless FLAC i got it from presto claasical, same glitches and i also reported it. The team at presto fixed the issues by contacting the label and i got since thwn a clean album.

a couple of years later decided to check it up again and logged into my apple ID the issues were still there .
So if you dont note any glitches then seems like apple music got the same master as presto music in 2013


----------



## Sterling2

Luis Mad said:


> According to several users in Reddit, Apple Music in Android beta version 3.6 latest update just appeared with hi res and Dolby Atmos.
> I am really hoping to get a working version for my Astell & Kern SR25.
> Otherwise I am really happy with the hires and lossless of Apple Music. My Apple Tv is streaming lossless to my living room stereo. Very convenient and excellent sound. When I walk the dog, I use my Iphone with Bluetooth iems and really don’t hear any difference at all In that case with the lossy version.


So, your stereo receives HDMI output?


----------



## Sterling2

Wondering, can a Lightning to usb cable send 24/192 to an external usb DAC? Example: iPhone 7+ to Parasound P6 DAC via the cable typically used to charge an iPhone.


----------



## Luis Mad (Jun 18, 2021)

Sterling2 said:


> So, your stereo receives HDMI output?


Not directly. My appletv is streaming lossless to the tv per hdmi and the tv optical to the stereo. Apparently everything comes out at 48 Khz from the Apple tv. I believe it is upsampled if not in 48.
I was compararing yesterday the same tracks from Apple TV in lossless and from the Beta Android installed in my pc in hi res, both connected to the same dac and stereo, and I could not find any audible difference. The Apple Tv is nevertheless more convenient to control remotely and also is absolutely quiet unlike my sometimes noisy pc with fan.

I made two little discoveries: what you can find in his res in an appropriate device like Iphone or Ipad in 24/96 or 24/192 seems to be always in 24/48 in the Apple Tv.
Another thing, tracks are continuously updated. A record that was a few days ago only available in lossless 16/44, today is available also in hi res 14/96 in the Ipad (in 24/48 in the Apple TV)


----------



## OneEyedHito (Jun 19, 2021)

Luis Mad said:


> Not directly. My appletv is streaming lossless to the tv per hdmi and the tv optical to the stereo. Apparently everything comes out at 48 Khz from the Apple tv. I believe it is upsampled if not in 48.
> I was compararing yesterday the same tracks from Apple TV in lossless and from the Beta Android installed in my pc in hi res, both connected to the same dac and stereo, and I could not find any audible difference. The Apple Tv is nevertheless more convenient to control remotely and also is absolutely quiet unlike my sometimes noisy pc with fan.
> 
> I made two little discoveries: what you can find in his res in an appropriate device like Iphone or Ipad in 24/96 or 24/192 seems to be always in 24/48 in the Apple Tv.
> Another thing, tracks are continuously updated. A record that was a few days ago only available in lossless 16/44, today is available also in hi res 14/96 in the Ipad (in 24/48 in the Apple TV)


Yes it appears they are batch updating constantly. Nice to see!


----------



## Tooros

Sterling2 said:


> Wondering, can a Lightning to usb cable send 24/192 to an external usb DAC? Example: iPhone 7+ to Parasound P6 DAC via the cable typically used to charge an iPhone.


I don’t think it can. You need the Apple camera connection kit and then a usb A to whatever DAC input required.  Or a specific cable with the same chip in it. I really think Apple will make a 24/196 version of their dongle at some point.


----------



## CharlyBrown

Tooros said:


> I don’t think it can. You need the Apple camera connection kit and then a usb A to whatever DAC input required.  Or a specific cable with the same chip in it. I really think Apple will make a 24/196 version of their dongle at some point.


I tried the original Apple CCK and the ddHifi TC28i adapter Lightning to usb-c. I can confirm both work with High-Res Lossless. A cable Lightning - to - USB-C will _not_ work. I also tried this, no avail unless you use a dongle that supports that e.g. the L&P W1/W2. With the W2 you can go directly with 1 cable from the iPhone to the dongle without any adapter in between.


----------



## Sterling2

O.K., so the TC28i adapter Lightning to usb-c will serve to deliver Hi-Res from my iPhone 7+ to my Parasound P6 Preamplifier's usb DAC input, is that right? I can buy this device on Amazon for about $28.


----------



## CharlyBrown (Jun 19, 2021)

Sterling2 said:


> O.K., so the TC28i adapter Lightning to usb-c will serve to deliver Hi-Res from my iPhone 7+ to my Parasound P6 Preamplifier's usb DAC input, is that right? I can buy this device on Amazon for about $28.


I don’t know the Parasound (looks cool from a quick google search btw.) but I am certain it will work. If not you have the perfect return policy by Amazon! I’d give it a try, it should work  

(You will also need a usb-c to usb-b cable…)


----------



## FooFighter

Anyone else having issues with Apple TV 4k?
I can play on my IPhone or IPad or Macbook Pro without problems, can open the music app on Apple TV, browse content, can even play the radio stations but whenever hitting a play button for the actual streaming content, it won't play!
I tried reboot, checked logged in account etc, looking good...
All other content like Amazon Music HD or Tidal is working on Apple TV 4k...


----------



## jwbrent

So far, so good …


----------



## ckhirnigs113

Has anyone experienced random, high-pitched static in the middle of a song streaming from Apple Music? It was so loud I was afraid it had damaged my eardrums. It has happened a couple of times right in the middle of a song. It is very startling to say the least.


----------



## Skrilla 009

ckhirnigs113 said:


> Has anyone experienced random, high-pitched static in the middle of a song streaming from Apple Music? It was so loud I was afraid it had damaged my eardrums. It has happened a couple of times right in the middle of a song. It is very startling to say the least.


Happened to me too, in fact sometimes it would randomly skip the song too


----------



## OneEyedHito

Not with Apple music but with Roon streaming from Tidal I have experienced this, it is likely bit errors in the streaming.


----------



## ckhirnigs113

I think it may only happen when I use my phone as the source. I sometimes get audio dropouts when switching between apps while music is playing. I may have to start using my laptop instead of my phone.


----------



## Kalnet101

ckhirnigs113 said:


> Has anyone experienced random, high-pitched static in the middle of a song streaming from Apple Music? It was so loud I was afraid it had damaged my eardrums. It has happened a couple of times right in the middle of a song. It is very startling to say the least.


It happened on my M1 MacBook Air a few times, but not frequent. It starts about 10 secs into the song. Good thing I don't listen that loud when it happens. =/


----------



## kadinh

Do usb cables/adapters matter when trying to listen to 24/192?

I am using my iPad Pro as a source (with the hi res settings on), then a USB-C to usb a adapter, usb a to usb b cable, Topping D50s/A50s, 800S.

I’m only seeing 44.1 on the display and the only thing I can think of interfering with it is the USB adapter or cable. I haven’t found any info confirming this tho. I’m going to try iphone w ACCwith the same usb cable and perhaps a different cable to see if it stays the same. I will also try with my Mojo and hipdac to see if there are different results.


----------



## OneEyedHito

Use the Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) USB-C to USB-A for iPad and Lightning to USB-A CCK for iPhone. It matters.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 22, 2021)

OneEyedHito said:


> Use the Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) USB-C to USB-A for iPad and Lightning to USB-A CCK for iPhone. It matters.



I don’t have the iPad Pro but was wondering if camera kit was still necessary and looks to be the case.  So even if iPhone switched over to usb-c in the future, would still need it as well.

I just looked it up and the iPad Pro doesn’t need a camera adapter. Just direct usb-c should work. Only if port is lightning do you need adapter.


----------



## CharlyBrown

iamoneagain said:


> I don’t have the iPad Pro but was wondering if camera kit was still necessary and looks to be the case.  So even if iPhone switched over to usb-c in the future, would still need it as well.
> 
> I just looked it up and the iPad Pro doesn’t need a camera adapter. Just direct usb-c should work. Only if port is lightning do you need adapter.



CCK is only necessary with old iPads with lightning port, as well as iPhones as long as they still use lightning. 

My 2020 iPad Pro works perfectly without such an adapter. I go straight iPad usb-c out -> L&P W2 / Hidizs S9 / Qudelix 5k usb-c in.


----------



## OneEyedHito

CharlyBrown said:


> CCK is only necessary with old iPads with lightning port, as well as iPhones as long as they still use lightning.
> 
> My 2020 iPad Pro works perfectly without such an adapter. I go straight iPad usb-c out -> L&P W2 / Hidizs S9 / Qudelix 5k usb-c in.


My 2021 iPad pro does not work with Audioquest USB-C DRAGONTAIL to AQ Cobalt or Red, it has to be the Apple CCK USB-C to USB-A then into either of the RED or the Cobalt.  I haven't tried to a desktop DAC but will now.


----------



## CharlyBrown

OneEyedHito said:


> My 2021 iPad pro does not work with Audioquest USB-C DRAGONTAIL to AQ Cobalt or Red, it has to be the Apple CCK USB-C to USB-A then into either of the RED or the Cobalt.  I haven't tried to a desktop DAC but will now.



I wouldn’t be surprised if Audioquest made the dragontail non-standard usb. They pretty much mess up everything. (I also once had dragonfly red & Dragontail…).


----------



## kadinh

Thanks everyone for your answers. I will test things tonight and report back in case someone else has this question in the future.


----------



## Lvivske

apparently Airplay accepts, but does not receive Lossless streaming from Apple Music

https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic...music_information_graphic_on_quality/h2piqc3/

anyone else seen this current issue?


----------



## OneEyedHito

Lvivske said:


> apparently Airplay accepts, but does not receive Lossless streaming from Apple Music
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic...music_information_graphic_on_quality/h2piqc3/
> 
> anyone else seen this current issue?


My Naim Uniti Nova plays Lossless 44khz via Airplay 2 from my iMac 🖥 across the room.


----------



## Lvivske (Jun 23, 2021)

OneEyedHito said:


> My Naim Uniti Nova plays Lossless 44khz via Airplay 2 from my iMac 🖥 across the room.



just to make sure, that device tells you it's ALAC / 16 bit, and not just playing AAC audio?

edit: in Music to Airplay on Apple TV it definitely shows Lossless played within AM, and 16bit output via airplay...

I assume if there was some ALAC/AAC conversion taking place, the logo wouldnt show up, or, if I switched source mid-track it would stop playing altogether, unless I'm missing a step in Apple's web of confusion here


----------



## OneEyedHito

Lvivske said:


> just to make sure, that device tells you it's ALAC / 16 bit, and not just playing AAC audio?


I believe at this point 16/44 ALAC but I’ll check after the game is over!


----------



## kadinh

OneEyedHito said:


> Use the Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) USB-C to USB-A for iPad and Lightning to USB-A CCK for iPhone. It matters.


This is correct. I used my lightning CCK with the same cable i have been using all along and got 192khz on the display. i ordered the Apple USB-C to USB-A female last night. Thanks again everyone for your answers.


----------



## kadinh

I've been researching parametric EQs for iOS/iPadOS and there doesn't seem to be anything worthwhile out there. I have considered the Schiit Loki Mini+, but not sure that would yield the same results as a parametric EQ. I guess my best option right now is to use my Mac to stream Apple Music and EQ with software (Boom, eqMac, etc.)...


----------



## DagsJT

kadinh said:


> I've been researching parametric EQs for iOS/iPadOS and there doesn't seem to be anything worthwhile out there. I have considered the Schiit Loki Mini+, but not sure that would yield the same results as a parametric EQ. I guess my best option right now is to use my Mac to stream Apple Music and EQ with software (Boom, eqMac, etc.)...



Qudelix 5K has PEQ and works well with iOS, headphone depending. I’ve had issues with getting Sundara’s to work via USB as the phone doesn’t give enough power to the 5K. But I imagine for less power-hungry headphones it’ll be great. Tons of options for EQ.


----------



## kadinh

DagsJT said:


> Qudelix 5K has PEQ and works well with iOS, headphone depending. I’ve had issues with getting Sundara’s to work via USB as the phone doesn’t give enough power to the 5K. But I imagine for less power-hungry headphones it’ll be great. Tons of options for EQ.


The only full size headphones I have at the moment are the HD660S and HD800S.


----------



## OneEyedHito

kadinh said:


> The only full size headphones I have at the moment are the HD660S and HD800S.


I would like a software solution also, if I come across something I will let you know.


----------



## TheEpicCrusader

Does anyone like the Dolby Atmos "spacial audio" feature? I feel like it makes everything sound so artificial, and it almost makes me think that I'm doing something wrong with it. I mean I guess it's ok for improving the feeling of space, but at the cost of feeling like vocals and even some instruments are very far away and flattened out. I don't EQ usually either. What does everyone think of the Atmos feature? Do you use it or turn it off?


----------



## CANiSLAYu

I’ve not been a fan with my AirPods Pro or wired IEMs with Lotoo PAW S1, at least on the handful of songs I’ve tried. Prefer lossless over spatial for sure.


----------



## OneEyedHito

TheEpicCrusader said:


> Does anyone like the Dolby Atmos "spacial audio" feature? I feel like it makes everything sound so artificial, and it almost makes me think that I'm doing something wrong with it. I mean I guess it's ok for improving the feeling of space, but at the cost of feeling like vocals and even some instruments are very far away and flattened out. I don't EQ usually either. What does everyone think of the Atmos feature? Do you use it or turn it off?


I love it for electronic music at this point. That’s all.


----------



## Kiats

Quick Q: the APK Mirror Apple Music v 3.6.0 beta works well on other android DAPs because we can use APK splitter apps to split the APK package. But not for DAPs like the AK DAPs that require the specific APKs themselves to be side loaded. Does anyone know where to find the APK itself? It’s the ARM64 one which would work with AK DAPs. Thanks everyone!


----------



## CharlyBrown

TheEpicCrusader said:


> Does anyone like the Dolby Atmos "spacial audio" feature? I feel like it makes everything sound so artificial, and it almost makes me think that I'm doing something wrong with it. I mean I guess it's ok for improving the feeling of space, but at the cost of feeling like vocals and even some instruments are very far away and flattened out. I don't EQ usually either. What does everyone think of the Atmos feature? Do you use it or turn it off?



This is not a yes or no answer for me. I like the spatial feature with well made songs but there is a lot of junk currently available, unfortunately. I am sure this will improve over time when more and more songs get optimized for Atmos and to me this is a welcome additional feature for „just listening“, e.g. during work. 

Actually, I purchased the Airpods Max with spatial audio in mind and I also like it for my phone calls. The noise cancellation feature of these headphones is _insane_! Much better than any Sony or AirPods Pro I tried. This will be great as soon as work travel will be back (airplane etc..) Also music reproduction with the AMax is much better than Airpods Pro. 

I am looking forward to spatial audio with gyro support / head tracking, coming to Apple Music in the fall. I am sure this will be great fun. I love this feature with videos.

As soon as I am in the mood of really appreciating the songs and listen focused, I prefer the lossless option with my nice gear. Versatility is king!


----------



## Lvivske

OneEyedHito said:


> I believe at this point 16/44 ALAC but I’ll check after the game is over!



seems I'm seeing more confirmation that its downgraded to AAC at some point in the chain

Will lossless audio work via Airplay 2 an… - Apple Community



> Apple Music in its lossless form streamed via AirPlay isn't only limited to 44.1 kHz (as expected like said before): unfortunately it's turned into a lossy (AAC) stream. It has been confirmed from various sources. Don't ask me why.


----------



## Lvivske

seeing more talk and possible solutions, this guy is using Apple TV 4K to HDMI-Optical converter to stereo

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...d-hi-res-mess/?do=findComment&comment=1143398

and now yesterday a large write up was done going over everything, so there are ways to output bit perfect

Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay - Bits and Bytes - Audiophile Style


----------



## Cran

Chesty said:


> I must say that Apple have been very attentive with my query.  I have had three subsequent calls with Apple, each time speaking to someone further up the line.  In the last call, I made a video screen capture as I walked through the issue.  The video shows how Audirvana is able to automatically adjust the audio format in Audio MIDI Setup, whereas Apple Music is not.  The Apple rep said he would forward the video to the Apple Music team in HQ, and would revert back to me next week.  I am just looking for an acknowledgment of this issue, and a commitment that Apple Music for Mac will be updated to address this.  The rep said that, if Audirvana can do this, then Apple Music should also be able to do this!


Did Apple support contact you again?


----------



## Chesty

Cran said:


> Did Apple support contact you again?


Only a Case Number e-mail so far, which says that they will respond when they have an answer. I will probably contact them again this week to enquire as to their progress.


----------



## OneEyedHito

John just released another (his 2nd one) video specifically on AM and it is a good one for further clarifications that we are all discussing here.

Darko Apple Music Video #2


----------



## Tooros

What’s possible on windows/iTunes? Anyone know.


----------



## Lvivske

Tooros said:


> What’s possible on windows/iTunes? Anyone know.



iTunes is possible


----------



## brif

Tooros said:


> What’s possible on windows/iTunes? Anyone know.


I'm pretty sure it just doesn't work. Apple has ignored the windows client for a while now.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252821990


----------



## myromeo

Anyone got 1111 APK for 320ppi version? Can only see 1108 on apkmirror


----------



## Brotato

Tooros said:


> What’s possible on windows/iTunes? Anyone know.


Pretty sure it is still standard iTunes quality on windows and you only get lossless on apple products (i.e. iPhones iPads Macs etc)


----------



## Arthur Weston

I really love this new service, especially the spatial audio.


----------



## Arthur Weston

I really enjoy their service, sound quality is wonderful!


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> Anyone got 1111 APK for 320ppi version? Can only see 1108 on apkmirror



You can install the 480ppi version on a 320ppi device.  There are minor ui changes (slightly crowded) but it works fine (tested on my A105).


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> You can install the 480ppi version on a 320ppi device.  There are minor ui changes (slightly crowded) but it works fine (tested on my A105).


Cheers, I’ve loaded 1111 and find it quite buggy. Often it fails to find lossless and high res tracks and plays the standard format. For example the album ‘ok human’ by weezer is 24/192 but plays in AAC… 

I’ll update to 1112 tonight and hopefully things will be improved. Hopefully buffering issues on the high res tracks will be resolved too as I believe has been mentioned before the app appears to be throttling its bandwidth to the point that a 24/192 track can’t stream


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> Cheers, I’ve loaded 1111 and find it quite buggy. Often it fails to find lossless and high res tracks and plays the standard format. For example the album ‘ok human’ by weezer is 24/192 but plays in AAC…
> 
> I’ll update to 1112 tonight and hopefully things will be improved. Hopefully buffering issues on the high res tracks will be resolved too as I believe has been mentioned before the app appears to be throttling its bandwidth to the point that a 24/192 track can’t stream



Yes, I'm having the same issues.  Sometimes it settles out after a few seconds for lossless tracks.  I haven't had any luck at 24/192 though with constant buffering.  It's not just the Sony DAP, my other Android DAPs are similar.


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> Yes, I'm having the same issues.  Sometimes it settles out after a few seconds for lossless tracks.  I haven't had any luck at 24/192 though with constant buffering.  It's not just the Sony DAP, my other Android DAPs are similar.


Mine seems to handle up to 24/96 absolutely fine but 24/192 no chance, I get a few seconds before it gives up and usually reverts to 16/44. I tried downloading some 24/192 yesterday and it downloaded in AAC! Think I’ll delete the app and reinstall the latest beta later. Oh the joys of beta apps!


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> Yes, I'm having the same issues.  Sometimes it settles out after a few seconds for lossless tracks.  I haven't had any luck at 24/192 though with constant buffering.  It's not just the Sony DAP, my other Android DAPs are similar.


1112 streaming 24/192 high res lossless perfectly on my Sony NW-A105 

not sure I can hear a difference over lossless but I’m happy it’s working! Sure sounds great.


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> 1112 streaming 24/192 high res lossless perfectly on my Sony NW-A105
> 
> not sure I can hear a difference over lossless but I’m happy it’s working! Sure sounds great.



Thanks for the update!  Just loaded and it's working well for me also.


----------



## eric5kim

Wish Apple would license Apple Music to other streaming companies or improve their airplay that can do higher bitrates!


----------



## Lvivske

Got the Apple TV running now and while 16/48 is sufficient and sounds great (A/B tested a ton), frustrated to find that AirPlay bypasses my software EQ

So guess I'm buying a secondary setup....lol...


----------



## Seancs14

Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.

I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.

Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


----------



## Kiats (Jul 4, 2021)

Seancs14 said:


> Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.
> 
> I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.
> 
> Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


Agree. Samsung has no incentive to work on a solution for a chip that is obsolete in the telco world.

The Shanling M8 and the DX300 (amongst the DAPs I have) work. AK just pushed out a FW for its DAPs and they now can load and play Apple Music. Of course, who knows if it will work for the Apple Music Lossless version. Because this is for the old Apple Music v 3.5.0.

The Sony ZX507 works too.


----------



## CANiSLAYu (Jul 4, 2021)

Seancs14 said:


> Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.
> 
> I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.
> 
> Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


Don’t hold your breath on support coming to the M11 Pro.  Shanling M6 2021 version is $570 MSRP. M3X would work as well and is $300 right now.


----------



## Luis Mad

Seancs14 said:


> Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.
> 
> I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.
> 
> Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


I have the AK Sr25 which works flawlessly with Apple Music 3.5 which is the last official Android version. According to Jason from the US distribution the new 3.6 beta with lossless works with no problem with the AK players. I am anxiously waiting for the official 3.6 to try it!


----------



## Tooros

I have Apple Music on my HiBy R6. Works perfectly today. But this is the official release only and doesn’t support the new lossless upgrade.


----------



## Seancs14

Thanks for the options @Tooros, @Luis Mad,@CANiSLAYu, and @Kiats.

I didn’t realize that the official Android app doesn’t support lossless yet.seems like the best place to start is to just wait for the 3.6 version app to come out to see how well it plays with various options. I’d hate to buy one now that ends up having issues with the new lossless formats.


----------



## Ken G

It's actually super simple to side load it on any of those android devices and DAPs. I just tried it on my iBasso DX300 and was able to successfully load the most recent beta. Here is what I did:

delete any prior versions of Apple Music on the device.
On the DAP or Android web browser go to the APK Mirror site and search for and download the Apple Music 3.6.0-beta (arm64-v8a) (480dpi) (Android 5.0+) version.
Install it and after you log into your Apple account you should be set. 

Once Apple Music 3.6 is available to the general public on the Play Store, you can delete the APK Mirror version and download it from there to get frequent updates.

The only caveat is that it is a beta version and I had some problems with the hi-res music not buffering very well and going in and out between hi-res and lossless on my DX300. Part of my issue might have been my wifi connection though. The lossless (CD quality music) worked flawlessly though and sounded every bit as good as Qobuz or Tidal.


----------



## rlw6534

CANiSLAYu said:


> Don’t hold your breath on support coming to the M11 Pro.  Shanling M6 2021 version is $570 MSRP. M3X would work as well and is $300!right now.



Yeah, I think Fiio is much more interested in selling the new M11 Plus with the "new" Apple Music feature...    as opposed to fixing the issue.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

rlw6534 said:


> Yeah, I think Fiio is much more interested in selling the new M11 Plus with the "new" Apple Music feature...    as opposed to fixing the issue.


It’s not FiiO’s fault. It has to do with the Exynos 7872 SoC the M11/Pro/M15 use that needs to be resolved by Samsung, but it’s unlikely they’re going to put any effort into a 3.5 year old discontinued chipset.


----------



## rlw6534

CANiSLAYu said:


> It’s not FiiO’s fault. It has to do with the Exynos 7872 SoC the M11/Pro/M15 use that needs to be resolved by Samsung, but it’s unlikely they’re going to put any effort into a 3.5 year old discontinued chipset.



I understand the 7872 issue and Samsung's lack of support.   It's just that every other streaming app works fine.  I guess what I am trying to say is what special feature is Apple Music using that makes it not work?   Can't Apple fix it from their end?  

Honestly, I'm just trying to influence Fiio to take another look, perhaps beyond Samsung as the only potential solution.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Has to do with the authentication Apple uses. Tidal also recently changed their authentication and Astell & Kern players could no longer login using the native app. A&K was able to do a firmware update for more current players, but couldn’t fix it on older players because Tidal stopped supporting older versions of Android.


----------



## rlw6534 (Jul 4, 2021)

CANiSLAYu said:


> Has to do with the authentication Apple uses. Tidal also recently changed their authentication and Astell & Kern players could no longer login using the native app. A&K was able to do a firmware update for more current players, but couldn’t fix it on older players because Tidal stopped supporting older versions of Android.



I imagine they use OAUTH as do many apps including Tidal.  I'm pretty sure that's what broke for A&K as they were using a deprecated method.   Of course the other apps are working on the M11 Pro so OAUTH must be working at least to a degree.  The current version of Tidal now requires Android 6 which is a limitation for older A&K devices (version 2.31 was the last to support Android 5).


----------



## myromeo

Seancs14 said:


> Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.
> 
> I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.
> 
> Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


The Sony NW-A105 works well too if your after a budget friendly option. Not bit perfect however, upscales  to 32/192


----------



## Seancs14

myromeo said:


> The Sony NW-A105 works well too if your after a budget friendly option. Not bit perfect however, upscales  to 32/192


This might be a good option too. Thanks! I haven't really looked at Sony's DAPs much before.

Looks like I can sell the m11 for ~$300-350, so hoping to keep it's replacement under $500 new or used.


----------



## Luis Mad

I have managed to install Apple Music 3.6 Beta with lossles and hires in the AK Sr25 following the the kind instructions of riclib in the Se200 thread. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ast...-with-multiple-dacs-head-fi-tv.935878/page-64. These instructions are for the particular needs of AK players.

The sound quality is remarkable. I love the tuning of the Sr25 and comparing Apple Music with Tidal (I have a discount offer about to expire) and Amazon Hd (I have a 4 month trial), I cannot find any difference in quality comparing the same recordings and all played in the SR25 to Denon Ahd7200 headphones. I have tried in the three steaming platforms a recording I know well: Brahms symphony num 4, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and Riccardo Chailly, all in hi res/ Master/ Ultra Hd and could not hear any difference. All sounded excellent to my ears. Also tried streaming the lossy Apple and then the hires Apple and the first sounds good, the second better, more detailed, more alive. Would I pass a blind test? I guess but who knows.
Unfortunatelly the Beta android version of Apple Music is unstable and full of bugs. All files stop and stutter at minute 3, really weird. I have increased the buffering but no help. Also the thing frozes sometimes and playlists are limited to 100 songs !
I am looking forward to the official 3.6 that surely will fix these problems. The SR25 plays Tidal, Amazon HD, Deezer which I also tried some time ago and the official Apple Music 3.5 without any of those problems. Anyway sound is fantastic!


----------



## kkugel

Luis Mad said:


> I have managed to install Apple Music 3.6 Beta with lossles and hires in the AK Sr25 following the the kind instructions of riclib in the Se200 thread. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ast...-with-multiple-dacs-head-fi-tv.935878/page-64. These instructions are for the particular needs of AK players.
> 
> The sound quality is remarkable. I love the tuning of the Sr25 and comparing Apple Music with Tidal (I have a discount offer about to expire) and Amazon Hd (I have a 4 month trial), I cannot find any difference in quality comparing the same recordings and all played in the SR25 to Denon Ahd7200 headphones. I have tried in the three steaming platforms a recording I know well: Brahms symphony num 4, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and Riccardo Chailly, all in hi res/ Master/ Ultra Hd and could not hear any difference. All sounded excellent to my ears. Also tried streaming the lossy Apple and then the hires Apple and the first sounds good, the second better, more detailed, more alive. Would I pass a blind test? I guess but who knows.
> Unfortunatelly the Beta android version of Apple Music is unstable and full of bugs. All files stop and stutter at minute 3, really weird. I have increased the buffering but no help. Also the thing frozes sometimes and playlists are limited to 100 songs !
> I am looking forward to the official 3.6 that surely will fix these problems. The SR25 plays Tidal, Amazon HD, Deezer which I also tried some time ago and the official Apple Music 3.5 without any of those problems. Anyway sound is fantastic!


I actually let my sister EQ my planars to her taste - what resulted in a very thick sound and me not being able to discern the difference between AM and other services anymore. The Denon you have have very thick bass and lower midrange, I imagine that prevents you from hearing the increased quality. With more neutral headphones I can discern it blindly in 10/10 recordings!


----------



## Luis Mad

kkugel said:


> I actually let my sister EQ my planars to her taste - what resulted in a very thick sound and me not being able to discern the difference between AM and other services anymore. The Denon you have have very thick bass and lower midrange, I imagine that prevents you from hearing the increased quality. With more neutral headphones I can discern it blindly in 10/10 recordings!


I do hear a difference between lossy Apple and hires Apple, but I have not done a blind test. i believe I would pass it but I have not done it.
i do not hear a difference between hires in Apple Music, Tidal and Amazon. Tidal is louder But not better to my ears.
Anyway you are probably right and I would perceive the differences better with other headphones, but I love my Denons. I will try with my Etymotic Er4xr iems that are more neutral.


----------



## Malfunkt

So Apple Music with Spatial Audio using Dolby Atmos is outstanding. It isn't new to me as I've been using a number of spatial DSP for a while.

Here are a few gripes:

- the first major issue, *on Mac OS X Apple Spatial audio does not work with an external dac*! I cannot imagine how many people have tried Dolby Atmos on there computers and thought spatial audio was a joke because it didn't do anything. You will know if it is working, as it is a significant difference in perceived sound quality and ability to position instruments in front of you in a true stereo field. Fortunately, my headphones are easy to power and the iMac's out works well. 

- Apple Spatial Audio *only works only dedicated Dolby Atmos media. *Other spatial DSP such as what can be found on Windows, can be used to process stereo and multichannel media. Dolby Atmos for Headphones on Windows works excellently for 5.1 content from Netflix (on the app not the browser). On my Mac I've rigged up a means to bus audio from Vox player to Rogue Amoeba SoundSource that is hosting Waves Abbey Road Studio as an Audio Unit plugin. The Waves studio plugin can accept head measurements and has three speaker simulations for near/mid/far field. I can process any of my stereo music content. it also does head tracking but I don't both with that. 

The positives:

- the sound quality is excellent.  Dolby Atmos transparent and does not introduce too many conflicting transients or artifacts. But the benefit of having true Dolby Atmos media is that the tracks can be specially engineered to take advantage of object-oriented positioning. Whereas my above solution is processing existing stereo media, it can only emulate how stereo music sound as reproduced on speakers in aroom space, Dolby Atmos media can go a step further and translates to both headphones _and_ Dolby Atmos speakers setups. 

- I didn't see my vintage but capable iPhone 6S listed as supported, but low-and-behold it works. You just have to set spatial audio to be 'Always On' in the Music settings. 

I've been enjoying Apple Spatial audio on my Fiio FH5S, which are awesome for this. To put in perspective, the FH5S with Apple Spatial Audio is more accurate and more spherical than listening to a set of HD800s with regular stereo! But the best headphone I've used for any spatial audio or binaural recordings are the Focal Utopia. I'm sure Stax setups would also be killer but the Utopia is convenient and can be powered easily.

unknowns:

- can someone confirm if they have got Apple spatial audio to work with external DACs using their iPhone. 

I'm only using a trial of Apple Music. I'm not that keen on streaming services and I have a huge library of FLAC and Mp3 which I can process on my Mac or iPhone with my current setup. It provides for more flexibility than what Apple currently offers though I expect that to change in the future and hopefully they open up spatial audio to use on regular stereo tracks. I can understand from a business perspective of why they may not do this as they want to change the recording industry, they want to evolve the standard and I'm all for that.


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Seancs14 said:


> Any recommendations DAPs that are working well with Apple Music? I currently have a Fiio m11 that I really like, but apparently there is an issue with the Exynos chip that there’s no solution for on the horizon that I’ve heard of.
> 
> I was told the Fiio m11 Plus works well, but hoping to find something out there in the original m11’s price range of ~$500ish.
> 
> Also wondering if I should just wait a couple months for all this current issues generally my to get sorted out instead ? However, I’m not hopeful that Fiio is going to get support for the m11 sorted out. I’m going to reach out to their support, but figured I’d start here.


Honestly with the release of the W2 it seems to me to make much more sense to buy it rather than any budget to mid-fi DAP at this point.


----------



## Seancs14

KutuzovGambit said:


> Honestly with the release of the W2 it seems to me to make much more sense to buy it rather than any budget to mid-fi DAP at this point.


What do you mean by W2? I’m feeling dense that I’m not sure what that is.


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Seancs14 said:


> What do you mean by W2? I’m feeling dense that I’m not sure what that is.


Luxury & Precision W2 dongle, dual DAC with SE and a 4.4 balanced output. The balanced can run 230mw with absurdly great measurements.


----------



## Rob49

Hi guys, what android Walkman’s are compatible with Apple Music ? I have a Sony ZX2.


----------



## jwbrent

myromeo said:


> Mine seems to handle up to 24/96 absolutely fine but 24/192 no chance, I get a few seconds before it gives up and usually reverts to 16/44. I tried downloading some 24/192 yesterday and it downloaded in AAC! Think I’ll delete the app and reinstall the latest beta later. Oh the joys of beta apps!



Apple designed ALAC (for lossless/hi res) and AAC (lossy) to use the same .M4a file type, for whatever strange reason.


----------



## rlw6534

Rob49 said:


> Hi guys, what android Walkman’s are compatible with Apple Music ? I have a Sony ZX2.



The NW-ZX500 and NW-A100 series are the only ones that I'm aware of...


----------



## Rob49 (Jul 13, 2021)

rlw6534 said:


> The NW-ZX500 and NW-A100 series are the only ones that I'm aware of...



Thanks for that. For those that have these Walkman’s, what’s your thoughts on sound quality ? Is it worth it ?

Just to clarify does that include the 507 Walkman ?


----------



## rlw6534

Rob49 said:


> Thanks for that. For those that have these Walkman’s, what’s your thoughts on sound quality ? Is it worth it ?



Sony DAPs are quite different from chi-fi in design and implementation (i.e. no off-the-shelf DAC and amps).  It might be best to take a look at the specific threads here in the forum.  I think they sound great, but like many things hi-fi, opinions vary:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-sony-40th-anniversary-walkman-thread.909629/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-sony-nw-zx500.914486/


----------



## Rob49

rlw6534 said:


> Sony DAPs are quite different from chi-fi in design and implementation (i.e. no off-the-shelf DAC and amps).  It might be best to take a look at the specific threads here in the forum.  I think they sound great, but like many things hi-fi, opinions vary:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-sony-40th-anniversary-walkman-thread.909629/
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-sony-nw-zx500.914486/



Thanks. I own Sony Daps. ZX2 & ZX300, & happy with them. You have been listening to Apple Music on your model ? If so, are you happy with it ?


----------



## rlw6534

Rob49 said:


> Thanks. I own Sony Daps. ZX2 & ZX300, & happy with them. You have been listening to Apple Music on your model ? If so, are you happy with it ?



The latest beta version of Apple Music (1114) is working fine on both my ZX507 and A105 with lossless enabled.   Atmos doesn't seem to work, but I believe that is true for most Android DAPs.   As far as sound quality - it sounds like a Sony...  not any different than Tidal or Amazon in high resolution (that I can detect).


----------



## Rob49

rlw6534 said:


> The latest beta version of Apple Music (1114) is working fine on both my ZX507 and A105 with lossless enabled.   Atmos doesn't seem to work, but I believe that is true for most Android DAPs.   As far as sound quality - it sounds like a Sony...  not any different than Tidal or Amazon in high resolution (that I can detect).



Thanks for the feedback. I really love how Apple lossless & Hi Res Lossless sounds through my Sony TA-ZH1ES Dac / Amp, so I’m definitely tempted to purchase one of the Sony Walkman’s.


----------



## rlw6534

Rob49 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I really love how Apple lossless & Hi Res Lossless sounds through my Sony TA-ZH1ES Dac / Amp, so I’m definitely tempted to purchase one of the Sony Walkman’s.



I guess the question is when will Sony release updated versions?  It been almost 2 years since release...


----------



## Luis Mad

1115 beta is out for anyone interested


----------



## CharlyBrown

KutuzovGambit said:


> Luxury & Precision W2 dongle, dual DAC with SE and a 4.4 balanced output. The balanced can run 230mw with absurdly great measurements.


I agree 100%. The W2 has even replaced my expensive Astell & Kern DAP, no regrets!


----------



## Finger Fish

KutuzovGambit said:


> Luxury & Precision W2 dongle, dual DAC with SE and a 4.4 balanced output. The balanced can run 230mw with absurdly great measurements.


Where's the best place to buy one of those? I can't seem to find any places here in Canada.


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Finger Fish said:


> Where's the best place to buy one of those? I can't seem to find any places here in Canada.


Musicteck.


----------



## Finger Fish

KutuzovGambit said:


> Musicteck.


Seems super annoying to update the firmware What. Can't find much on it.


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Finger Fish said:


> Seems super annoying to update the firmware What. Can't find much on it.


If you have a Windows machine it’s fine. I use Mac but I have an old Windows laptop lying around and it’s really no big deal.


----------



## Finger Fish

KutuzovGambit said:


> If you have a Windows machine it’s fine. I use Mac but I have an old Windows laptop lying around and it’s really no big deal.


I'm a Linux user LUL.


----------



## KutuzovGambit

Finger Fish said:


> I'm a Linux user LUL.


Then spin yourself up a VM and you’ll be issue free my bro.


----------



## Seancs14

KutuzovGambit said:


> Luxury & Precision W2 dongle, dual DAC with SE and a 4.4 balanced output. The balanced can run 230mw with absurdly great measurements.


Thanks for the clarification. This looks like it might be perfect. I tried to find a simple, high-quality inline dac when I bought my M11 a couple years ago, but couldn’t find anything that really seemed to fit.

I just picked up a Shanling m3x off the classifieds here that arrives tomorrow, but I might grab a w2 also and just keep the one I like better.


----------



## Seancs14

CharlyBrown said:


> I agree 100%. The W2 has even replaced my expensive Astell & Kern DAP, no regrets!


This is high praise. I’d like to be able to keep all my music on my phone with great sound, but without a clunky dac/amp stack, so going to check this out.

I’ve tried a dragonfly in the past, but it was just a bit too unwieldy because of the multiple dongles needed to make it work with an iPhone. The short dongle from lightning to usb-c seems like the difference maker.


----------



## Luis Mad

I have been the whole day listening to the AK SR25 with my Denon AH-D7200 headphones with Apple Music 3.6 Beta 1115, last versio. With this version finally Apple Music hires works wonderfully. Previously only lossless worked well, hires had too many bugs to be usable. Now, there are (almost) no bugs. The sound quality is excellent to my ears. Killer combination AK+Denon+Apple Music hires.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone know where to find the changelog on the different builds (1115 etc) ?


----------



## Seancs14 (Jul 14, 2021)

I just got the Shanling M3X in today and installed 3.6 Beta 1115 through the APK Mirror app. There are a couple little quirks with the beta, but everything sounds great and works well. My ears aren't refined enough to hear the difference between it and my old M11 that Apple Music won't work with, so I'm happy. Downloads to the MicroSD card work flawlessly too, which is super important for me.

I also ended up buying an L&P W2 I found on the Classifieds today, so will be able to see whether I like phone+dongle or DAP better. Overall, I'm happy to be able to consolidate streaming down to one service.


----------



## Seancs14

kkugel said:


> Anyone know where to find the changelog on the different builds (1115 etc) ?


Here you go.


----------



## kkugel

Seancs14 said:


> Here you go.


That's only the changelog of different version numbers, not build numbers sadly


----------



## Seancs14

kkugel said:


> That's only the changelog of different version numbers, not build numbers sadly


Ahhh. I misunderstood what you were asking for. I haven’t seen anything that breaks down the individual build numbers.


----------



## PopZeus

So any word on Apple doing anything new with Airplay or are they just proving their move to lossless was mostly marketing?


----------



## mintshows

PopZeus said:


> So any word on Apple doing anything new with Airplay or are they just proving their move to lossless was mostly marketing?


I mean...it's not mostly marketing...it's there. Apple moves at it's own pace...always has and always will


----------



## Luis Mad

mintshows said:


> I mean...it's not mostly marketing...it's there. Apple moves at it's own pace...always has and always will


Completely agree. For me it is not mostly marketing. I am now listening to Apple Music in hires in my SR25. Also use everyday my AppleTV4k with Apple Music in lossles connected to my stereo. It will fantastic to have in the future hires headphones for direct connection to Iphone and IPad and some wireless means (Airplay 3?) of transmission but lossless and hires are a reality already. And a very fine reality imo!


----------



## PopZeus (Jul 16, 2021)

Of course it’s real. But that doesn’t mean it’s not just mostly marketing for Apple Music. They basically flipped a switch on a server. If they were fully into lossless, the whole business would realign under a new standard but right now it looks like the whole of Apple’s hardware and software divisions is fine with 256kbps AAC. Apple Music gets to check a box in order to sell a few more subs but no Apple hardware besides that which can already handle lossless audio for video can now handle lossless music. They can’t even find a way to let 3rd party audio equipment access Apple Music lossless directly like literally every other streaming service. Airplay is fine for your car but it sounds like crap if you’re actually into quality audio.

I gotta say, It’s a little weird that you guys are so confident that Apple is going to do things it usually doesn’t do, like make it easier to break out of Apple’s locked-in ecosystem. Apple is interested in selling more hardware, not letting other hardware makers access to Apple’s toys. At best, lossless will be something that an AirPods revision will be able to access. But I doubt we’ll ever see BluOS allowed to be an Apple Music endpoint for example.


----------



## Lvivske

Whats wrong with Airplay? We're using it to stream lossless now, whats not to like?

And I think all the issues are an indightment of Music and Airplay as a whole, like others said, Apple moves at its own pace without rhyme or reason sometimes. They introduce standards and then kill them off, they go heavy on something and then leave the app to die for years without updates. That's the problem with monopolies, no focus


----------



## kkugel

PopZeus said:


> Of course it’s real. But that doesn’t mean it’s not just mostly marketing for Apple Music. They basically flipped a switch on a server. If they were fully into lossless, the whole business would realign under a new standard but right now it looks like the whole of Apple’s hardware and software divisions is fine with 256kbps AAC. Apple Music gets to check a box in order to sell a few more subs but no Apple hardware besides that which can already handle lossless audio for video can now handle lossless music. They can’t even find a way to let 3rd party audio equipment access Apple Music lossless directly like literally every other streaming service. Airplay is fine for your car but it sounds like crap if you’re actually into quality audio.
> 
> I gotta say, It’s a little weird that you guys are so confident that Apple is going to do things it usually doesn’t do, like make it easier to break out of Apple’s locked-in ecosystem. Apple is interested in selling more hardware, not letting other hardware makers access to Apple’s toys. At best, lossless will be something that an AirPods revision will be able to access. But I doubt we’ll ever see BluOS allowed to be an Apple Music endpoint for example.


Apple does love selling licenses for lightning accessoires though. They might just do that with streaming certifications, which would be very typical of them


----------



## Luis Mad




----------



## iamoneagain (Jul 18, 2021)

Lvivske said:


> Whats wrong with Airplay? We're using it to stream lossless now, whats not to like?
> 
> And I think all the issues are an indightment of Music and Airplay as a whole, like others said, Apple moves at its own pace without rhyme or reason sometimes. They introduce standards and then kill them off, they go heavy on something and then leave the app to die for years without updates. That's the problem with monopolies, no focus



Apple Music thru Airplay 2 is actually only 256 aac. Only delivers lossless if using device that doesn’t have Airplay 2. This is just with Apple Music. If you stream Qobuz or Amazon Music over Airplay 2, you’ll get 16/44 lossless. As far as I know this hasn’t been fixed yet in IOS 15 betas.


----------



## Ken G

Luis Mad said:


>


Very interesting. It only shows up as 24/96 on my iPhone 11.  What device are you using?


----------



## Luis Mad

Ken G said:


> Very interesting. It only shows up as 24/96 on my iPhone 11.  What device are you using?


Astell & Kern SR25 playing the 3.6 Beta Android app. Of the hires files that I have found so far, I would say at least 90% are 24/96, few 24/192 and this strange case 32/192.
In my IPhone it plays (or says) 24/192! Just checked, this is crazy!


----------



## Tooros

Luis Mad said:


> Astell & Kern SR25 ....................... Just checked, *this is crazy*!


No, This is beta.....


----------



## eastantrim4 (Jul 20, 2021)

So - I'm new to this whole game - so new I've only recently just purchased a pair of Sennheiser HD560s  - they sound awesome with a Gen 1 Rega Planar 2 (from the late 70s) and TEAC AH500i integrated AMP - like as good as I've heard... however, when I hook them up to a MacBook Pro it's like, I dunno - they died??
  Anyway, I have an Apple Music subscription and have turned on the Lossless option and don't really notice any differecnce, so... would you recommend I get an Amp first, a DAC first or an DAC/Amp combo ?? Had thought of something like the ifi Zen Dac but not sure - if it helps, I'm based in the UK.


----------



## Luis Mad

eastantrim4 said:


> So - I'm new to this whole game - so new I've only recently just purchased a pair of Sennheiser HD560s  - they sound awesome with a Gen 1 Rega Planar 2 (from the late 70s) and TEAC AH500i integrated AMP - like as good as I've heard... however, when I hook them up to a MacBook Pro it's like, I dunno - they died??
> Anyway, I have an Apple Music subscription and have turned on the Lossless option and don't really notice any differecnce, so... would you recommend I get an Amp first, a DAC first or an DAC/Amp combo ?? Had thought of something like the ifi Zen Dac but not sure - if it helps, I'm based in the UK.


I have a laptop and desktop pc, so maybe my answer is not appropriate for Mac , I do not know. I started not long ago with the Sennheiser HD599, a close relative of your headphones. First I bought a Dragonfly Black dac and the improvement was huge (dac and amp) both with my laptop and IPhone. Then decided I wanted something easier to move around and bought the Sony nwa55l which can work as both dac and dap but no streaming. Then I bought the AK SR25, dap, dac and streamer. During this new headphones, iems, …welcome to headfi, sorry for your wallet!
It all depends on your use: do you want a desktop stationary solution or something mobile? Anyway something like the modest Dragonfly Black is already a huge sound improvement over the pc headphones jack. I guess it must be the same with Mac. I was just using the Dragonfly recently to try Apple Music lossles with my IPad and it is night and day with the headphones jack. I think it is rather difficult to distinguish between hires and lossless but lossless and standard Apple Music, there is a clear difference imo.
Hope it helps!


----------



## Luis Mad

Apple Music official 3.6 (not a beta but the final new version) is out.


----------



## eastantrim4

Luis Mad said:


> I have a laptop and desktop pc, so maybe my answer is not appropriate for Mac , I do not know. I started not long ago with the Sennheiser HD599, a close relative of your headphones. First I bought a Dragonfly Black dac and the improvement was huge (dac and amp) both with my laptop and IPhone. Then decided I wanted something easier to move around and bought the Sony nwa55l which can work as both dac and dap but no streaming. Then I bought the AK SR25, dap, dac and streamer. During this new headphones, iems, …welcome to headfi, sorry for your wallet!
> It all depends on your use: do you want a desktop stationary solution or something mobile? Anyway something like the modest Dragonfly Black is already a huge sound improvement over the pc headphones jack. I guess it must be the same with Mac. I was just using the Dragonfly recently to try Apple Music lossles with my IPad and it is night and day with the headphones jack. I think it is rather difficult to distinguish between hires and lossless but lossless and standard Apple Music, there is a clear difference imo.
> Hope it helps!


Yep, I’m beginning to realise I could be going down a very deep rabbit hole (how do I hide it from the Mrs?) I’m not sure I fully realised that the Dragonfly was a DAC/Amp combo so I might start down that route and see how it goes from there.
  Thanks for the pointer, appreciated!


----------



## Tooros

Luis Mad said:


> Apple Music official 3.6 (not a beta but the final new version) is out.


Can’t see it yet but that’s good news.


----------



## Luis Mad

Tooros said:


> Can’t see it yet but that’s good news.


You can find it in apkmirror


----------



## Tooros

Luis Mad said:


> You can find it in apkmirror


Oh I misunderstood. I thought you meant it was actually on the play store.


----------



## Tooros

Looks like it’s out?


----------



## Kalnet101

Yup! It's officially out on the google playstore. I only had to manually find the apple music in my app management page to manually update it. If yours is still not updated automatically, do check in your app settings in the google playstore.


----------



## Tooros

Confirmed. HiBy R6 (original) working fine and dandy. 😁


----------



## Rob49

I know Apple Music is available on two of the Sony Daps, but what other Walkmans work with it ?


----------



## Tooros




----------



## seeteeyou

Could NePLAYER be yet another avenue for bit-perfect output to USB DACs?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.radius.neplayer_lite_an&hl=en&gl=US
https://www.radius.co.jp/news/2019-12-20：neplayerがapple-musicのストリーミング再生に対応！/


----------



## Archerious

Anyone know of any decent streamers that support Apple Music lossless? I assume it needs to run Android or iOS? I really don't like the idea of using an iPad or Mac for streaming, would prefer either a dedicated powered streamer or some kind of android device that can be wirelessly charged while depleting the battery streaming.


----------



## Ken G

Archerious said:


> Anyone know of any decent streamers that support Apple Music lossless? I assume it needs to run Android or iOS? I really don't like the idea of using an iPad or Mac for streaming, would prefer either a dedicated powered streamer or some kind of android device that can be wirelessly charged while depleting the battery streaming.



I would assume that any Raspberry Pi could be a streamer for Apple Music Lossless via Airplay. If you also want Apple Music Hi-Resolution content, there are no solutions outside of using an iOS device with The Camera Connection Kit (CCK) or similar device (ddhifi I think makes one).


----------



## iamoneagain

Ken G said:


> I would assume that any Raspberry Pi could be a streamer for Apple Music Lossless via Airplay. If you also want Apple Music Hi-Resolution content, there are no solutions outside of using an iOS device with The Camera Connection Kit (CCK) or similar device (ddhifi I think makes one).




Yeah currently Airplay and Airplay 2 devices support Apple Music. At current time only Airplay supports lossless 16/44. Airplay 2 with Apple Music is still aac 256k. This may change at some later point. The HomePods are currently the only devices that allow handoff where you don’t need your phone to continue to constantly stream. No talk of whether this tech will make it it other devices yet.


----------



## Stevko (Jul 28, 2021)

tried the old CCA adapter. can`t use it! too much noises and pops. do I need the new adapter?

or should it work with the old one? only tried with schiit gear.

looks like DRagonfly has same prob:

*When DragonFly (Black, Red, Cobalt) is connected to an iOS device using Apple’s older Lightning to USB Camera Connection Kit, I can hear clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?* In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black, Red, or Cobalt causes a clicking in the background of the music.

Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why this is, but, in circumstances where this occurs, we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning-to-USB 3 Camera Adapter resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and provides the ability to charge the attached iOS device while listening to music.


----------



## fufula

https://dribbble.com/shots/16116849-Apple-Music-on-Windows-11





Now wouldn't that be quite a turn of events for us Windows users?


----------



## Archerious

fufula said:


> https://dribbble.com/shots/16116849-Apple-Music-on-Windows-11
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If only….but knowing Apple we’ll get to keep using iTunes and 256Kbps AAC.


----------



## Tooros

Archerious said:


> If only….but knowing Apple we’ll get to keep using iTunes and 256Kbps AAC.


I’m sure it’ll happen. I hope so anyway.


----------



## fufula

I think it’s more likely they enable these features through their web app than release any kind of Apple Music for Windows unfortunately. I guess it’s either too much effort considering the limited user base or they think Apple Music is a strong enough brand to make people want to switch from Windows to Mac.


----------



## Crepusculum

Here are my thoughts on Apple Music vs. Tidal. I have had both services for a while, but before Apple released their HiRez I used Tidal most of the time. I have gone back and forth between the two testing different tracks and different types of music and I even included Audirvana with Tidal at times. Apple Music clearly sounds better to my ears (vs Tidal and Audirvana) and has a better selection of albums for what I listen to, which pains me, to be honest. The reason this is difficult is that the GUI and service of Tidal is preferable to me by leaps and bounds. K-NN (or whatever algorithm) Tidal uses provides me with better options for what I want to listen to. Right now I'm going to keep all my streaming services, and might even add Qobuz to the mix with the Audirvana free trial. In a perfect world, Tidal would offer me the missing albums (We Are the Others by Delain is a prime example) that I want to listen to and tweak their sound.


----------



## imackler

Probably not the only one but I'm a little confused. With an ipad or an iphone and the appropriate lightning to USB Camera adapter, will I get a bit-perfect feed with from music to an external dac? Is there a consensus?


----------



## Stevko

imackler said:


> Probably not the only one but I'm a little confused. With an ipad or an iphone and the appropriate lightning to USB Camera adapter, will I get a bit-perfect feed with from music to an external dac? Is there a consensus?


The old one don’t work


----------



## imackler

Stevko said:


> The old one don’t work


The old phones or the old camera adapters? Can anyone confirm that Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter does support bit perfect transfer? Thank you!


----------



## rlw6534

imackler said:


> Probably not the only one but I'm a little confused. With an ipad or an iphone and the appropriate lightning to USB Camera adapter, will I get a bit-perfect feed with from music to an external dac? Is there a consensus?



I'm definitely getting lossless and high resolution at the indicated bitrate on external DACs.  Not sure how to verify that it's truly bitperfect.


----------



## Stevko

imackler said:


> The old phones or the old camera adapters? Can anyone confirm that Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter does support bit perfect transfer? Thank you!


Old Camera adapter


----------



## seeteeyou

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-musics-lossless-and-hi-res-mess-r1022/


> Apple has a perfect copy of the album on its servers, the perfect copy starts, but then something changes in the stream that causes the music to not be bit perfect. I'm open to all input on what this could possibly be, but watermarking is my best educated guess for now.



https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...es-mess/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-1144347


> Apple Music stream is 0.2dB lower in level than the original track I own, with an apparent application of dither after the level reduction. This accounts for why they are not a bit-perfect match. There is no other filtering or perceptual coding applied. The files are an extremely close match when reduced to about 23 bits.


----------



## rlw6534 (Jul 28, 2021)

rlw6534 said:


> I'm definitely getting lossless and high resolution at the indicated bitrate on external DACs.  Not sure how to verify that it's truly bitperfect.


Edit:

I have both the original and the USB3 CCK adapters (genuine Apple).  They are both working for me up to 192 kHz with an external DAC.  I don't know of any higher rate tracks to test.


----------



## Archerious (Jul 28, 2021)

imackler said:


> Probably not the only one but I'm a little confused. With an ipad or an iphone and the appropriate lightning to USB Camera adapter, will I get a bit-perfect feed with from music to an external dac? Is there a consensus?


The new iPad Pros use USB-C not lightning. That being said you can use third party adapters.

I bit the bullet and bought an iPad Pro and the adapter from Amazon was $19.99.


----------



## Stevko

other  users here that use cca adapter  and apple music? 
what gear? old or new adapter?
I have the same issues with my schiit gear:

*When DragonFly (Black, Red, Cobalt) is connected to an iOS device using Apple’s older Lightning to USB Camera Connection Kit, I can hear clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?* In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black, Red, or Cobalt causes a clicking in the background of the music.

Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why this is, but, in circumstances where this occurs, we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning-to-USB 3 Camera Adapter resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and provides the ability to charge the attached iOS device while listening to music.


but john darko use the old cca and smile:

https://darko.audio/2021/06/apple-music-hi-res-audio-again/


----------



## Archerious

Stevko said:


> other  users here that use cca adapter  and apple music?
> what gear? old or new adapter?
> I have the same issues with my schiit gear:
> 
> ...


I use a third party adapter, like $19 on Amazon and it works perfectly. I'd recommend that as well. 

The official apple adapters are hit or miss, and frankly the build quality and cords aren't the best quality despite Apple charging high prices for the adapter.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

No issues with the USB 2.0 Apple CCK and iFi iDSD Diablo.  Have also used multiple USB C to lightning OTG cables with L&P W2 or Lotoo PAW S1 without issue.  Have used all of those with an iPhone SE2, iPhone 12, and iPhone 12 Pro Max with Apple Music. I also worried about the cable like @Archerious pointed out, but nothing a couple of springs from a pen couldn't fix.



It’s 5 years old now and no signs of strain.


----------



## Stevko (Jul 30, 2021)

mmm... could be my DAC. maybe I should sell my schiit Hel 2 and buy a IFI instead


----------



## fendiking

The apple lightening to 3.5mm headphone dongle has rendered my Fiio M11 DAP useless to be honest. I’m enjoying lossless on my iPhone.


----------



## seeteeyou

IMHO that's kinda funny, the official Apple Music app wouldn't even work on FiiO M11 at all since there's no way to login successfully

http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=46731
https://www.reddit.com/r/FiiO/comments/oh8rgw/hi_guys_any_news_about_when_apple_music_its_gonna/

Maybe it's the same deal with NePLAYER even though Apple Music could be accessed in different way?


----------



## PopZeus

It's pretty cool that USB-C dongle DACs work with Apple devices that have them. iPhone will never switch to USB-C until it completely overtakes Android, Airplay drains your battery, and the CCK option or whatever is a travesty of UX. Other 3rd party audiophile options offer questionable compatibility because licensing costs extra. So infuriating.


----------



## fendiking

seeteeyou said:


> IMHO that's kinda funny, the official Apple Music app wouldn't even work on FiiO M11 at all since there's no way to login successfully
> 
> http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=46731
> https://www.reddit.com/r/FiiO/comments/oh8rgw/hi_guys_any_news_about_when_apple_music_its_gonna/
> ...


That’s why the M11 has be rendered useless by a £9 dongle dac, and I can’t say I’ve noticed worse sound quality.


----------



## Finger Fish

fendiking said:


> The apple lightening to 3.5mm headphone dongle has rendered my Fiio M11 DAP useless to be honest. I’m enjoying lossless on my iPhone.


I'm glad the M11 Plus can use Apple Music. I've been really enjoying it on it. Sucks one day Apple will go portless, killing all wired options.


----------



## JoePR31

Strongly considering dropping my Tidal subscription and sticking with Apple Music, but I’ve spent the past 30 minutes trying to find a way to EQ lossless music streaming from the Apple Music app on my MacBook while connected via USB-C to my DAC and came up empty. Did I do a poor job of searching, or is there truly no software that can do this?


----------



## rlw6534

JoePR31 said:


> Strongly considering dropping my Tidal subscription and sticking with Apple Music, but I’ve spent the past 30 minutes trying to find a way to EQ lossless music streaming from the Apple Music app on my MacBook while connected via USB-C to my DAC and came up empty. Did I do a poor job of searching, or is there truly no software that can do this?



The built-in equalizer (Window->Equalizer) isn't working?


----------



## JoePR31

rlw6534 said:


> The built-in equalizer (Window->Equalizer) isn't working?


I was lead to believe that it wouldn't work when using a DAC connected via USB. Is that not true?


----------



## rlw6534

JoePR31 said:


> I was lead to believe that it wouldn't work when using a DAC connected via USB. Is that not true?



Hmm.  It's doing something but it does seem glitchy, especially the preamp adjustment (distortion).   Maybe not a good idea to use.  Sorry, I didn't know better.


----------



## JoePR31 (Jul 31, 2021)

rlw6534 said:


> Hmm.  It's doing something but it does seem glitchy, especially the preamp adjustment (distortion).   Maybe not a good idea to use.  Sorry, I didn't know better.


I just got back home and tried it. Like you said, the preamp doesn't seem to do anything beneficial, but the EQ itself does seem to work well enough. It's not nearly as useful as a parametric EQ, but it's better than nothing. Just needed a small boost to my Elegia's mid bass and lower sub bass and the results were satisfactory. Thanks for your help!

Edit: I'd still like to find a better solution, so if anyone knows any, please do share!


----------



## Papa253

ckhirnigs113 said:


> Has anyone experienced random, high-pitched static in the middle of a song streaming from Apple Music? It was so loud I was afraid it had damaged my eardrums. It has happened a couple of times right in the middle of a song. It is very startling to say the least it's just Apple preparing your mind





Skrilla 009 said:


> Happened to me too, in fact sometimes it would randomly skip the song too


Don't worry it's just a apple preparing your minds for the upcoming programming, where you become Apple drones, resistance is futile


----------



## rlw6534

JoePR31 said:


> I just got back home and tried it. Like you said, the preamp doesn't seem to do anything beneficial, but the EQ itself does seem to work well enough. It's not nearly as useful as a parametric EQ, but it's better than nothing. Just needed a small boost to my Elegia's mid bass and lower sub bass and the results were satisfactory. Thanks for your help!
> 
> Edit: I'd still like to find a better solution, so if anyone knows any, please do share!


This appears to be a possible solution:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nxz8ko/how_to_fix_dolby_atmos_on_mac_while_using_an/


----------



## rlw6534

rlw6534 said:


> This appears to be a possible solution:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nxz8ko/how_to_fix_dolby_atmos_on_mac_while_using_an/



HostingAU + BlackHole + AUNBandEq

Not trivial to setup, but it works.


----------



## JoePR31

rlw6534 said:


> This appears to be a possible solution:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/nxz8ko/how_to_fix_dolby_atmos_on_mac_while_using_an/


Thanks. I spent about an hour and a half researching other possible solutions, and the one you linked to was one of the ones I found. I was looking for something with a lot of functionality and polish that was also was easy to use. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that none of the free options met all of those criteria, and eliminated those from the list that I had compiled. After some more research, I believe I found the best affordable solution..."SoundSource". 

It's only $39 with a free trial, is chocked full of features, and seems very polished and easy to use once you get acclimated. So far, it seems great, but I still need to spend some more time using it before I give a full recommendation. Here's a link for those who want to try it for themselves.

https://rogueamoeba.com/soundsource/


----------



## rlw6534

JoePR31 said:


> Thanks. I spent about an hour and a half researching other possible solutions, and the one you linked to was one of the ones I found. I was looking for something with a lot of functionality and polish that was also was easy to use. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that none of the free options met all of those criteria, and eliminated those from the list that I had compiled. After some more research, I believe I found the best affordable solution..."SoundSource".
> 
> It's only $39 with a free trial, is chocked full of features, and seems very polished and easy to use once you get acclimated. So far, it seems great, but I still need to spend some more time using it before I give a full recommendation. Here's a link for those who want to try it for themselves.
> 
> https://rogueamoeba.com/soundsource/



I agree, Soundsource seems to be the best single solution without a lot of tinkering.   The $39 was the stumbling block for me although I may eventually succumb.  Maybe Apple will improve the built-in eq with the next OS release, now that Atmos, lossless and high-resolution are available.


----------



## Ken G

I purchased Soundsource for Mac OS and use it now and then for software that doesn't have Exclusive Audio but there are a few limitations with it. First off, it doesn't resolve the bit perfect issues for Apple Music. I emailed the developer and let them know about this but I doubt they will offer that feature. Secondly the EQ functionality isn't the best with a few exceptions. It supports the Audeze Reveal plugin so if you have an Audeze headphone it has you covered and works great being able to adjust for each individual application. It does have a system-wide headphone EQ that pulls from auto-eq curves and seems to work pretty well but application doesn't allow these Headphone EQ's to be exclusive to an individual app (like Apple Music). If you want to set up EQ's exclusive to an App, you need to use the Apple AU sound software which is very unintuitive at best.


----------



## originalsnuffy

PetZoundz said:


> Zorloo Ztella checks all your boxes, also does DSD. There is a lighting version, but it never worked for me, so I plug it into the CCK, and then into my iPhone.


I know this is a sidebar to this discussion, but I just received a Zorloo Ztella and it works just fine with lightning.   It actually sounds quite good.   It appears to decode DSD natively also (feeding it an ISO via HiBy app).  I do have  a CCK which I use with my DAPs but this is easier.   Though the Zorloo does steal juice form the phone which can be bypassed with the latest CCK.


----------



## dungmp

Is it just me? Or is sound quality on Apple Music worse than HDtrack?


----------



## Chesty

dungmp said:


> Is it just me? Or is sound quality on Apple Music worse than HDtrack?


I wasn't aware that HDtracks was a music player.  How are you comparing the two?


----------



## dungmp (Aug 3, 2021)

Chesty said:


> I wasn't aware that HDtracks was a music player.  How are you comparing the two?


I mean the albums that I bought and downloaded from HDtracks. I listened to them then I tried the same albums on Apple Music with lossless on and no dolby atmos. Same bit rate, same setup (pc, Ifi zen dac v2 and hifiman ananda). I can hear a major difference in sound quality. It is not as "clean" as HDtracks. Even with laptop speaker alone, I can still hear the difference. I tried them both with another setup (android, dragonfly dac, sen hd560s). The same result.


----------



## CharlyBrown

dungmp said:


> I mean the albums that I bought and downloaded from HDtracks. I listened to them then I tried the same albums on Apple Music with lossless on and no dolby atmos. Same bit rate, same setup (pc, Ifi zen dac v2 and hifiman ananda). I can hear a major difference in sound quality. It is not as "clean" as HDtracks. Even with laptop speaker alone, I can still hear the difference. I tried them both with another setup (android, dragonfly dac, sen hd560s). The same result.



Then there are two possible reasons:

1) HDTrack uses a good recording / Apple Music a bad one for the tracks you compare. (Possible but unlikely as Apple should be able to source the best possible recordings)
2) Psychoaccoustics. Happens to pretty much everybody from time to time. 

But if you can even hear the difference through laptop speakers, there must be something wrong with the tracks played from Apple.


----------



## dungmp (Aug 3, 2021)

CharlyBrown said:


> Then there are two possible reasons:
> 
> 1) HDTrack uses a good recording / Apple Music a bad one for the tracks you compare. (Possible but unlikely as Apple should be able to source the best possible recordings)
> 2) Psychoaccoustics. Happens to pretty much everybody from time to time.
> ...


I had high hope for Apple Music when they introduced HiFi. For me, Apple Music is like Apple converts lossy music (AAC) to lossless (ALAC) using software and make the tracks louder. I don't think Apple has original recording from studios.
And I tried 20+ albums with 200+ songs to see if I have bias for Apple music. I really want to find a reason to love it because its so convenient. And I dont want to pay $25/ album on HDtracks anymore


----------



## dungmp

dungmp said:


> I had high hope for Apple Music when they introduced HiFi. For me, Apple Music is like Apple converts lossy music (AAC) to lossless (ALAC) using software and make the tracks louder. I don't think Apple has original recording from studios.
> I tried 20+ albums with 200+ songs to see if I have bias for Apple music. I really want to find a reason to love it because its so convenient. And I dont want to pay $25/ album on HDtracks anymore


----------



## kkugel

dungmp said:


> I mean the albums that I bought and downloaded from HDtracks. I listened to them then I tried the same albums on Apple Music with lossless on and no dolby atmos. Same bit rate, same setup (pc, Ifi zen dac v2 and hifiman ananda). I can hear a major difference in sound quality. It is not as "clean" as HDtracks. Even with laptop speaker alone, I can still hear the difference. I tried them both with another setup (android, dragonfly dac, sen hd560s). The same result.





dungmp said:


> I had high hope for Apple Music when they introduced HiFi. For me, Apple Music is like Apple converts lossy music (AAC) to lossless (ALAC) using software and make the tracks louder. I don't think Apple has original recording from studios.
> And I tried 20+ albums with 200+ songs to see if I have bias for Apple music. I really want to find a reason to love it because its so convenient.


Could you send me one of those downloaded tracks? I have pretty good ears and want to try that


----------



## bru87tr

dungmp said:


> Is it just me? Or is sound quality on Apple Music worse than HDtrack?


I have files downloaded from HDT and other. I am not impressed with hi res Apple offers. Very muffled sounding. I tried all my headphones and eq off and it just doesn’t sound good.


----------



## dungmp

bru87tr said:


> I have files downloaded from HDT and other. I am not impressed with hi res Apple offers. Very muffled sounding. I tried all my headphones and eq off and it just doesn’t sound good.


Now I can cancel my Apple Music sub )


----------



## bru87tr

dungmp said:


> Now I can cancel my Apple Music sub )


Not sure why. I have my phone hooked up to my Oppo HA-2 and my DL files from HDT sound great. But the oppo HA-2 hooked up to my iPad, not so great. It’s working correctly but it just does not sound as good.


----------



## kkugel

I don't know what you guys are doing with your chain - the HDTracks test sampler sounds identical to the Apple Music recordings to me. And my ears are pretty young


----------



## kkugel

bru87tr said:


> Not sure why. I have my phone hooked up to my Oppo HA-2 and my DL files from HDT sound great. But the oppo HA-2 hooked up to my iPad, not so great. It’s working correctly but it just does not sound as good.


Try Apple Music on Android, I use it on Android and there's no difference.


----------



## dungmp (Aug 3, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Try Apple Music on Android, I use it on Android and there's no difference.


I tried Apple Music on my Android phone and Apple Music on Pc via Bluestack. I have no Idivice to try. You can try "Carmen-Fantasie" of Anne-Sophie Mutter and "Come Away With Me" of Norah Jones. Even the samples on HDtracks sound different than the songs on AM.


----------



## HeavenlyBlack

Quick question: does AM hi-res work properly on Android phones like my LG V40? or is it only capable of playing back at 48kHz (with the resampling of higher rates?)


----------



## Chesty

I must admit that I have not yet listened to any of my HDtracks albums (or for that matter any of my other albums purchased from other online shops) using AM on my SP2000.  I have only been listening to albums on AM that I don't own already.  I need to do some A/B listening to determine if I can hear any differences.


----------



## Chesty

Having said that, I have mainly listened to AM high-res through my iMac and desktop / headphone system.  I have found no significant issues with AM's SQ compared to the SQ of my purchased albums playing through Audirvana.  Again, I will need to some A/B listening to determine if I can hear any differences.


----------



## CharlyBrown

dungmp said:


> I had high hope for Apple Music when they introduced HiFi. *For me, Apple Music is like Apple converts lossy music (AAC) to lossless (ALAC) using software and make the tracks louder.* I don't think Apple has original recording from studios.
> And I tried 20+ albums with 200+ songs to see if I have bias for Apple music. I really want to find a reason to love it because its so convenient. And I dont want to pay $25/ album on HDtracks anymore



I’m not a fan of conspiracy tales and this one is ridiculous.


----------



## tomwoo

CharlyBrown said:


> not a fan of conspiracy tales and this one is ridiculous.


Exactly. Why would Apple do that? All they needed to do was asking record companies for the files already generated for TIDAL/Qobuz/Deezer...


----------



## Luis Mad

tomwoo said:


> Exactly. Why would Apple do that? All they needed to do was asking record companies for the files already generated for TIDAL/Qobuz/Deezer...


In my case, I did a few comparisons of classical between Tidal (just a few days, it was the end of an offer subscription), Amazon HD (I am in the middle of a four month free offer for Prime members) and Apple Music in hires and lossless. I compared the three with pieces and versions I know with AK SR25 and Denon AH-D7200 headphones and Etymotic ER4XR iems. I must say in most cases I did not find any difference. Tidal is louder. Occasionally one would sound better than the other but most cases no difference. I am very happy with Apple Music in hires and lossless. I believe it is a clear improvement. In my case Tidal is goodbye for good. Amazon HD is fine but I doubt I will keep both. Qobuz I have never tried so I cannot compare.

Also Apple Music is so convenient with Apple TV4K in lossless. I am now in a summer flat where I have a very basic setup with amp and speakers. Source usually is my laptop with my files. Now with Apple Music through the Apple TV4K, I barely connect the laptop anymore. Sound quality is excellent to my hears (connected hdmi to tv and this optical to amp). Very convenient using the Iphone or Ipad as remote control of the AppleTV. Only drawback for me was having the screen on with the screensavers. Those are beautiful on the AppleTV but too much light and brightness. Following advice in another place, I took a black picture and use it as screen saver, and drawback solved.


----------



## kkugel

dungmp said:


> I tried Apple Music on my Android phone and Apple Music on Pc via Bluestack. I have no Idivice to try. You can try "Carmen-Fantasie" of Anne-Sophie Mutter and "Come Away With Me" of Norah Jones. Even the samples on HDtracks sound different than the songs on AM.


Maybe they are just different masters


----------



## bru87tr (Aug 4, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Try Apple Music on Android, I use it on Android and there's no difference.


Well, maybe that's what it is. Even with the Ipad EQ off I just cant get the right sound, or with a EQ selected or even flat. I will say I use my oppo HA-2 on my Android phone with the Onkyo APP and my files sounds awesome.


----------



## ThePeave

Luis Mad said:


> Also Apple Music is so convenient with Apple TV4K in lossless. I am now in a summer flat where I have a very basic setup with amp and speakers. Source usually is my laptop with my files. Now with Apple Music through the Apple TV4K, I barely connect the laptop anymore. Sound quality is excellent to my hears *(connected hdmi to tv and this optical to amp)*. Very convenient using the Iphone or Ipad as remote control of the AppleTV. Only drawback for me was having the screen on with the screensavers. Those are beautiful on the AppleTV but too much light and brightness. Following advice in another place, I took a black picture and use it as screen saver, and drawback solved.



Depending on the way your TV handles the audio signal throughput, its very likely resampling the original output from the Apple TV and sending a set sample rate and bit depth to your DAC, no matter what sample rate the Apple TV is outputting. This may not be a noticeable problem depending on your setup, but it is a big issue for those that want to ensure that the sample rate and bit depth of the original file is what's sent to and encoded by the DAC without any resampling along the way. This is the reason I've stuck with Tidal so far, as their Mac app is one of the few that automatically adjusts the sample rate output in exclusive mode to match the source file. The Apple Music app on Mac still doesn't do this as far as I'm aware, and getting the audio output from the Apple TV HDMI out to a DAC requires some other intermediary (eg HDMI --> optical) which is typically going to resample the file, though if someone knows of a bit perfect solution to this issue I would love to hear it.


----------



## jamesofla80

ThePeave said:


> Depending on the way your TV handles the audio signal throughput, its very likely resampling the original output from the Apple TV and sending a set sample rate and bit depth to your DAC, no matter what sample rate the Apple TV is outputting. This may not be a noticeable problem depending on your setup, but it is a big issue for those that want to ensure that the sample rate and bit depth of the original file is what's sent to and encoded by the DAC without any resampling along the way. This is the reason I've stuck with Tidal so far, as their Mac app is one of the few that automatically adjusts the sample rate output in exclusive mode to match the source file. The Apple Music app on Mac still doesn't do this as far as I'm aware, and getting the audio output from the Apple TV HDMI out to a DAC requires some other intermediary (eg HDMI --> optical) which is typically going to resample the file, though if someone knows of a bit perfect solution to this issue I would love to hear it.


Anyone test out the new MacOS Monterey beta to see if they fixed the lack of source resampling in AM?


----------



## wafubloke

jamesofla80 said:


> Anyone test out the new MacOS Monterey beta to see if they fixed the lack of source resampling in AM?


They haven’t fixed it.


----------



## jamesofla80

wafubloke said:


> They haven’t fixed it.


Bummer, so its iPad or bust.


----------



## kkugel

jamesofla80 said:


> Bummer, so its iPad or bust.


Or any DAP on Android


----------



## PopZeus

As someone who's been pretty skeptical of Apple Music, I'm grateful they kicked the competition fully into lossless audio. I've been slowly bouncing around from service to service to try them out. My experience so far is that Tidal sounds better than Amazon HD. I know Apple's service sounds good but as a company they're completely aligned to the 256 kbps AAC standard. Even if they mean to embrace lossless, the whole organization can't do it overnight. They've been pretty silent ever since the "launch" of lossless, part of me still thinks the initial announcement was little more than a marketing push.

But hey, if Spotify starts offering a lossless tier at a competitive price to lay down stakes, I would just switch to them for the first time. Then Apple truly did change the game!


----------



## CharlyBrown

PopZeus said:


> As someone who's been pretty skeptical of Apple Music, I'm grateful they kicked the competition fully into lossless audio. I've been slowly bouncing around from service to service to try them out. My experience so far is that Tidal sounds better than Amazon HD. I know Apple's service sounds good but as a company they're completely aligned to the 256 kbps AAC standard. Even if they mean to embrace lossless, the whole organization can't do it overnight. They've been pretty silent ever since the "launch" of lossless, part of me still thinks the initial announcement was little more than a marketing push.
> 
> But hey, if Spotify starts offering a lossless tier at a competitive price to lay down stakes, I would just switch to them for the first time. Then Apple truly did change the game!


You should check Apple Music out once more. The majority of my playlists, covering thousands of songs, is now at least lossless, some are even high-res lossless. I dare to assume that Tidal and the others don’t offer more lossless than Apple does even today and they are still releasing more and more of their existing catalog in lossless.

Imo the only reason not to opt in for Apple is if you like features of other services better (like better suggestions in Tidal of Spotify, for example) or if you dislike Apple as a company.


----------



## lextheimpaler

CharlyBrown said:


> You should check Apple Music out once more. The majority of my playlists, covering thousands of songs, is now at least lossless, some are even high-res lossless. I dare to assume that Tidal and the others don’t offer more lossless than Apple does even today and they are still releasing more and more of their existing catalog in lossless.
> 
> Imo the only reason not to opt in for Apple is if you like features of other services better (like better suggestions in Tidal of Spotify, for example) or if you dislike Apple as a company.


Spotify have dropped the ball on this one. I am switching to Tidal.


----------



## PopZeus (Aug 20, 2021)

CharlyBrown said:


> You should check Apple Music out once more. The majority of my playlists, covering thousands of songs, is now at least lossless, some are even high-res lossless. I dare to assume that Tidal and the others don’t offer more lossless than Apple does even today and they are still releasing more and more of their existing catalog in lossless.
> 
> Imo the only reason not to opt in for Apple is if you like features of other services better (like better suggestions in Tidal of Spotify, for example) or if you dislike Apple as a company.


Disagree. BluOS can't access Apple Music and it can access all the other major streamers, as well as many niche players. Airplay performance is inconsistent at best and will always drain your device battery. Even something as basic as corporate synergy doesn't exist with Apple Music. The entire rest of Apple both software and hardware divisions have not changed their product strategy since lossless and HD was announced. You could say this is an unfair comparison but all the other streamers are incentivized to work with other companies whereas Apple doesn't and currently has shown no interest in working with other companies to extend the reach of AM (other than the Android version of their app, which is an MVP in the tech world).


----------



## Lvivske

PopZeus said:


> Airplay performance is inconsistent at best and will always drain your device battery.


using airplay from my mac to apple tv is choppy and cuts out often, is this just common across the board with airplay?

i assume the Belkin SoundForm is just as bad as an AppleTV?


----------



## Stevko

Apple music is only great with apple products ,airplay and bluetooth


----------



## PopZeus

Lvivske said:


> using airplay from my mac to apple tv is choppy and cuts out often, is this just common across the board with airplay?
> 
> i assume the Belkin SoundForm is just as bad as an AppleTV?


Airplay doesn’t work like Spotify or Tidal‘s Connect feature, so it has an extra layer where the signal loss can occur. If you have Apple Music you should be able to access it directly from the Apple TV but if you want to use Airplay on your HT receiver, your iPhone or iPad will be a bottleneck for the audio signal path. At least that’s how it was explained to me!


----------



## Lvivske

Stevko said:


> Apple music is only great with apple products ,airplay and bluetooth


Love Apple Music on my Macbook (usb to dac), but Airplay has been horrendous so far



PopZeus said:


> Airplay doesn’t work like Spotify or Tidal‘s Connect feature, so it has an extra layer where the signal loss can occur. If you have Apple Music you should be able to access it directly from the Apple TV but if you want to use Airplay on your HT receiver, your iPhone or iPad will be a bottleneck for the audio signal path. At least that’s how it was explained to me!


i'm not too concerned about a bottleneck if its still CD quality tbh, mostly just want it to play without crapping out


----------



## gleanfont

wafubloke said:


> They haven’t fixed it.



What makes them too long to fix it? More of the updates they have is about releasing new model this coming September.


----------



## PopZeus

Lvivske said:


> i'm not too concerned about a bottleneck if its still CD quality tbh, mostly just want it to play without crapping out


To be accurate, it's not a bottleneck exactly. More like your iOS device is a hotspot for the Airplay end point. It's just another link in the chain where the signal can drop out, which is what could be happening to you.


----------



## Lvivske

PopZeus said:


> To be accurate, it's not a bottleneck exactly. More like your iOS device is a hotspot for the Airplay end point. It's just another link in the chain where the signal can drop out, which is what could be happening to you.



there's only 3 links in the chain - source, router, airplay device


----------



## PopZeus

Lvivske said:


> there's only 3 links in the chain - source, router, airplay device


Yeah and my point is with other streaming services connect feature, you only use your device as a remote. The connection is otherwise direct. Anyways I hope your streaming situation improves!


----------



## DeweyCH

What's everyone's suggestion for playback settings on Windows with Apple Music? I can only play through iTunes, and I have my playback preferences set to use Direct Sound --> 44.1k sample rate --> 24 bit. Is there any way to have Apple Music match bitrate and bit depth to the song being played?

Running through a desktop DAC (SMSL SU-8).


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> What's everyone's suggestion for playback settings on Windows with Apple Music? I can only play through iTunes, and I have my playback preferences set to use Direct Sound --> 44.1k sample rate --> 24 bit. Is there any way to have Apple Music match bitrate and bit depth to the song being played?
> 
> Running through a desktop DAC (SMSL SU-8).



Good question. I like to know too as I use Apple Music on my Windows PC. The thing is I also have Roon / Tidal and my dac is Yggdrasil. At the moment though, everything sounds good.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Good question. I like to know too as I use Apple Music on my Windows PC. The thing is I also have Roon / Tidal and my dac is Yggdrasil. At the moment though, everything sounds good.


I was very down on Apple Music until I found those playback preferences; kept going back to Amazon Music and their "Exclusive Mode" toggle. With Direct Sound the way I described it above, it sounds about equal, and I don't have to toggle it every time I load the player. Just wish there were more options, like "match source file" or something.


----------



## efftee

All things being equal, ie same IEM+Cable, is there any degradation of sound quality between a wired IEM connection to the device streaming Apple Lossless, and bluetooth IEM connection?


----------



## Edyeded86

efftee said:


> All things being equal, ie same IEM+Cable, is there any degradation of sound quality between a wired IEM connection to the device streaming Apple Lossless, and bluetooth IEM connection?


Yes!


----------



## DeweyCH

efftee said:


> All things being equal, ie same IEM+Cable, is there any degradation of sound quality between a wired IEM connection to the device streaming Apple Lossless, and bluetooth IEM connection?


Yeah. Bluetooth doesn't support lossless streaming. From Apple's FAQ on lossless:

Can I listen to lossless audio over Bluetooth?​ 
We will deliver music using lossless audio compression to your iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Apple TV. Lossless will play back normally on Bluetooth speakers and headphones. However, Bluetooth connections don’t support lossless audio


----------



## efftee

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah. Bluetooth doesn't support lossless streaming. From Apple's FAQ on lossless:
> 
> Can I listen to lossless audio over Bluetooth?​
> We will deliver music using *(1) lossless audio compression *to your iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Apple TV. Lossless will play back* (2) normally* on Bluetooth speakers and headphones. However, *(3) Bluetooth connections don’t support lossless audio*


Thanks for clearing that up. Though I must say, that 1 para contains 3 confusing/misleading parts. (1) Didn't know compression could still yield lossless, (2) Normally probably be better as Lossy-ly, and (3) That just sounds like 'The Kind is dead, Long live the King!' Oh well...


----------



## fufula (Aug 24, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> What's everyone's suggestion for playback settings on Windows with Apple Music? I can only play through iTunes, and I have my playback preferences set to use Direct Sound --> 44.1k sample rate --> 24 bit. Is there any way to have Apple Music match bitrate and bit depth to the song being played?
> 
> Running through a desktop DAC (SMSL SU-8).



Did I miss something? Last I checked lossless wasn't available on Windows, so you don't need to trouble yourself with sample rate matching. My suggestion would be to not use any Apple services on Windows (or better yet, any Apple services period). Judging by how often their apps get updated and how well they perform, it's very clear they don't want them to be used on that platform.


----------



## efftee

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah. Bluetooth doesn't support lossless streaming. From Apple's FAQ on lossless:
> 
> Can I listen to lossless audio over Bluetooth?​
> We will deliver music using lossless audio compression to your iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Apple TV. Lossless will play back normally on Bluetooth speakers and headphones. However, Bluetooth connections don’t support lossless audio


Sorry but what if iPod wirelessly streams via bluetooth to a DAC/AMP, which is wired connected to the IEM. Any lossless music going on there?


----------



## pieman3141

efftee said:


> Sorry but what if iPod wirelessly streams via bluetooth to a DAC/AMP, which is wired connected to the IEM. Any lossless music going on there?


There is no lossless playback via Bluetooth, no matter what. Even the proprietary stuff that Sony uses (APTX-HD) isn't actually lossless. The only way to get lossless playback wirelessly is to use wi-fi (aka Airplay).


----------



## efftee

So I switched over to OTG mode, connecting the iPod to DAC/AMP, and frankly, I am struggling to discern any SQ difference between a fully wired and iPod-BT-DAC/AMP-IEM rig. If it is 100% true that no Lossless over BT, then I am either hearing non-Lossless all this while or I'm deaf. But then since I can't tell the difference from day-1, I could be deaf either way!


----------



## rlw6534 (Aug 25, 2021)

efftee said:


> So I switched over to OTG mode, connecting the iPod to DAC/AMP, and frankly, I am struggling to discern any SQ difference between a fully wired and iPod-BT-DAC/AMP-IEM rig. If it is 100% true that no Lossless over BT, then I am either hearing non-Lossless all this while or I'm deaf. But then since I can't tell the difference from day-1, I could be deaf either way!



Apple's bluetooth is 256 kbps AAC, a lossy, compressed format.  It's quality is actually pretty good but certainly not lossless.  For comparison, uncompressed CD audio is 1411 kbps and compressed (but not lossy) flac is around 600-800 kbps.  You aren't deaf, I personally find 256 kbps AAC difficult to distinguish from lossless. I suspect that's true for many others as well, but I'm willing to admit it...


----------



## Luis Mad

Apple acquires classical music streaming service Primephonic​https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/08/apple-acquires-classical-music-streaming-service-primephonic/


----------



## tomwoo

I think I'll stick with Qobuz unless Apple enables bit-perfect playback across platforms.


----------



## Tal00

Ok so I did some side by side more like app/app critical listening and I can’t hear a difference between Apple High-Res Lossless and Tidal MQA master of Hotel California. 
However when comparing the Dance Monkey MQA master v.s. The Apple Lossless (there was no High-Res Lossless available) the MQA sounded fuller richer and more open. I’m using the FiiO M11 Plus Ltd with balanced JVC HA-FD01.
Not sure what to do with this information. But I thought this would be a good place to share it.
Cheers.


----------



## rebuk

Luis Mad said:


> Apple acquires classical music streaming service Primephonic​https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/08/apple-acquires-classical-music-streaming-service-primephonic/



Wow, this is interesting. I haven't followed them in a few years along with IDAGIO but isn't surprising that this has happened.


----------



## Tal00

rebuk said:


> Wow, this is interesting. I haven't followed them in a few years along with IDAGIO but isn't surprising that this has happened.


Cool. Will be nice to see them expanding the high-res lossless library. Some albums that are MQA “Master Quality“ on Tidal are only available at “Apple Lossless“ format.


----------



## Soundizer

If we select DOWNLOAD IN DOLBY ATMOS on iPad does this prevent playback in high resolution. All my Albums are downloaded with this setting enabled. My external DAC only shows 44.1 as USB input. Nothing higher.


----------



## rlw6534

Soundizer said:


> If we select DOWNLOAD IN DOLBY ATMOS on iPad does this prevent playback in high resolution. All my Albums are downloaded with this setting enabled. My external DAC only shows 44.1 as USB input. Nothing higher.


My understanding is that the Atmos and lossless tracks are seperate from each other.  The Atmos tracks are still AAC and the lossless are ALAC.  There are no lossless Atmos tracks.


----------



## Soundizer

Soundizer said:


> If we select DOWNLOAD IN DOLBY ATMOS on iPad does this prevent playback in high resolution. All my Albums are downloaded with this setting enabled. My external DAC only shows 44.1 as USB input. Nothing higher.


Correction I found a high res Beatles Album which only shows/plays in 96 if Dolby Atmos is turned off when playing as a download file. This is bad. That means will have to download all Dolby Atmos Albums again because they will otherwise not play in high res.


----------



## Soundizer

rlw6534 said:


> My understanding is that the Atmos and lossless tracks are seperate from each other.  The Atmos tracks are still AAC and the lossless are ALAC.  There are no lossless Atmos tracks.


The popular Taylor Swift Album “folklore” is shown as Atmos.
Now it is also showing Lossless.

so we should get lossless if downloaded and it does show as 44.1 on my external dac this way. It also shows as 44.1 in Atmos download.  

i think above 44.1 which is labelled high res you have to turn Atmos download off otherwise you get 44.1 cd quality


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 5, 2021)

Soundizer said:


> The popular Taylor Swift Album “folklore” is shown as Atmos.
> Now it is also showing Lossless.
> 
> so we should get lossless if downloaded and it does show as 44.1 on my external dac this way. It also shows as 44.1 in Atmos download.
> ...



I believe the Atmos version tracks are lossy AAC.   They may show 44.1 on your DAC (as would any AAC file), but they are neither lossless or high resolution if downloaded as Atmos.


----------



## Soundizer

rlw6534 said:


> I believe the Atmos version tracks are lossy AAC.   They may show 44.1 on your DAC (as would any AAC file), but they are neither lossless or high resolution if downloaded as Atmos.


Ok. Then the issue is if there is a Dolby Atmos only Album why then does it also have Lossy Label?


----------



## Soundizer

Sorry i mean Lossless Label and Atmos label for same Album?


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 5, 2021)

Soundizer said:


> Sorry i mean Lossless Label and Atmos label for same Album?



For a downloaded album?  Apple Music has multiple versions on their end, normal AAC, Atmos AAC (if available), ALAC lossless/high resolution (if available).  When streaming, you get the version that matches your settings.   Likewise when downloading, so if you download in Atmos, that is the version you get.

It's always possible Apple is making changes, but this is what I understand is happening.


----------



## Soundizer

I only had 5 Albums in Atmos. So have downloaded them again with Atmos Downloads set to off.

I don’t have to re-download all other Albums again which are not Atmos?


----------



## Soundizer

I might just delete all Albums and start downloading again with Atmos Download off. My concern is that even lossless only Albums might have been downloaded in AAC. Will take me 2 days.


----------



## fendiking

But did you notice a different in sound quality 👀


----------



## Soundizer

fendiking said:


> But did you notice a different in sound quality 👀


Yes a big difference.


----------



## Soundizer

A big difference between low res and cd quality. Above cd quality difficult to tell. I am using £2200 worth headphones and dac/amp. Easily hear a difference.

not sure if I could hear a difference on HIFI speakers.


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 5, 2021)

Soundizer said:


> I only had 5 Albums in Atmos. So have downloaded them again with Atmos Downloads set to off.
> 
> I don’t have to re-download all other Albums again which are not Atmos?



Play them back (wifi off) and see what they say on the screen.

I did some experimenting with Beatles, Let it Be (2021 Mix) which is available in normal AAC, Lossless, High-resolution and Atmos.  If I turn off Atmos downloads, it downloads whichever version is selected in the Music settings under downloads.  Turn off wifi and it works exactly as expected (duh), only the downloaded version plays, AAC, Lossless or High-resolution and of course, Atmos is not available.

Leaving everything the same and turning on Atmos downloads, you get only the Atmos track.  If you set Atmos playing to off, you get a track that is neither lossless or high-resolution, probably AAC without the Atmos effects.

This is all what I expected to see.

I'm guessing if an Atmos track is not available, it will download either AAC, lossless or high-resolution {based on your Music download settings), but I need to find a high-resolution track that doesn't have an Atmos version to verify.


----------



## Soundizer

rlw6534 said:


> Play them back (wifi off) and see what they say on the screen.
> 
> I did some experimenting with Beatles, Let it Be (2021 Mix) which is available in normal AAC, Lossless, High-resolution and Atmos.  If I turn off Atmos downloads, it downloads whichever version is selected in the Music settings under downloads.  Turn off wifi and it works exactly as expected (duh), only the downloaded version plays, AAC, Lossless or High-resolution and of course, Atmos is not available.
> 
> ...


Yes my experience is the same as you stated which is not ideal. However I suppose only 1 format can be downloaded otherwise larger downloads unnecessarily.

only the 5 Albums in Atmos we’re probably low res AAC. Every thing else for me was downloaded in CD Lossless with average 621mb size per Album = 41GB for 66Albums.

if i had Airpod MAX then I would probably leave ATMOS DOWNLOADING to on.


----------



## Soundizer

It would be great if ATMOS LOSSLESS was an option.


----------



## Soundizer

Not even streaming services such as Netflix offer ATMOS LOSSLESS currently.


----------



## rlw6534

Soundizer said:


> It would be great if ATMOS LOSSLESS was an option.



I believe high res Atmos is around 18,000 kbps… pretty big.


----------



## Soundizer

rlw6534 said:


> I believe high res Atmos is around 18,000 kbps… pretty big.


Yes but tiny compared to video downloads so about time this is made available as an option atleast.


----------



## Soundizer

18mbps compared to Apple TV+ and Disney+ which can stream 30-50mbps.
Netflix Dolby Vision in UK = 15.25mbps.

also iTunes DOLBYVISION ATMOS Movies can be downloaded at 5-10GB per Movie easily.


----------



## rlw6534

Soundizer said:


> 18mbps compared to Apple TV+ and Disney+ which can stream 30-50mbps.
> Netflix Dolby Vision in UK = 15.25mbps.
> 
> also iTunes DOLBYVISION ATMOS Movies can be downloaded at 5-10GB per Movie easily.





Soundizer said:


> Yes but tiny compared to video downloads so about time this is made available as an option atleast.



Yeah, I would like the option as well.  Maybe not for everything as I would run out of space soon. But space gets cheaper with time...


----------



## Aurora0001

Anyone find that spatialise stereo sounds better than atmos?


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can someone tell me if Apple music lossless works with Bluestack on a PC and if it is BIT PERFECT?


----------



## Luis Mad

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone tell me if Apple music lossless works with Bluestack on a PC and if it is BIT PERFECT?


Apple Music works with Bluestack. It is not bit perfect. Furthermore I read in another forum that audio has limitations in Bluestack (16/44 O believe) but I have not been able to confirm it or test it.


----------



## efftee

rlw6534 said:


> Apple's bluetooth is 256 kbps AAC, a lossy, compressed format.  It's quality is actually pretty good but certainly not lossless.  For comparison, uncompressed CD audio is 1411 kbps and compressed (but not lossy) flac is around 600-800 kbps.  You aren't deaf, I personally find 256 kbps AAC difficult to distinguish from lossless. I suspect that's true for many others as well, but I'm willing to admit it...


Ok, so I have fixed the OTG issue and have been able to listen to both Lossless (OTG) and Lossy (BT) on my iPod-HM1000 Quad rig. And yes, now I can hear some difference on selected tracks -- mostly definition/clarity of details, (can I say) better dynamic range, (sounds) louder, more punch or improved PRaT. It's not always there, I understand Lossless doesn't mean Hires, which probably explains the level of discernibility and differences. On some tracks, I didn't hear any differences, or I should say -- improvements. Anyway, this is just to address a point I made previously that I couldn't tell the difference, and I can safely say that rumors of my deafness is greatly exaggerated.


----------



## Soundizer

Luis Mad said:


> Apple Music works with Bluestack. It is not bit perfect. Furthermore I read in another forum that audio has limitations in Bluestack (16/44 O believe) but I have not been able to confirm it or test it.


Hello. It is not Bitperfect currently on Mac OS. Although this might change in the next OS in October. Not sure about it.

My understanding is iOS  - iPhone/iPad via Camera Kit delivers Bit Perfect.


----------



## Luis Mad

Soundizer said:


> Hello. It is not Bitperfect currently on Mac OS. Although this might change in the next OS in October. Not sure about it.
> 
> My understanding is iOS  - iPhone/iPad via Camera Kit delivers Bit Perfect.


Ipad camera kit and Dragonfly (black in my case) is bit perfect. My dragonfly changes colour depending on the type of file: 44, 48, 96 and mqa.


----------



## Soundizer

Luis Mad said:


> Ipad camera kit and Dragonfly (black in my case) is bit perfect. My dragonfly changes colour depending on the type of file: 44, 48, 96 and mqa.


Yes iPhone and iPad are bit perfect. Don’t require special software like you do on Android.


----------



## Lucky87

What about a MacMini with a Intel Six-Core version 2018/2019. I think I am not on the newest Apple OS but I’ve been listening back in forth from Roon with Tidal, Qobuz back to Apple Music and honestly I wasn’t thinking I would hear the difference but I could. And this is not a small amount I hear, it’s huge like a way blacker background, better instrumental separation. The only thing I do not like is you have to navigate with mouse/keyboard vs like Roon with iPad. I reached out to them and they said Ipad compatible with navigation is very close.


----------



## Luis Mad

Apple Music 3.7.0 for Android is out


----------



## imackler

Luis Mad said:


> Apple Music 3.7.0 for Android is out


I'll be so excited when one of these is bitperfect... No reason not to dream.


----------



## Ken G

imackler said:


> I'll be so excited when one of these is bitperfect... No reason not to dream.


I thought the iOS and Android apps stream as bit perfect but the desktop apps do not. Is there a bit perfect limitation to the Apple Android app when playing on a DAP (ie, Hiby, iBasso, Fiio, etc)?


----------



## imackler

Ken G said:


> I thought the iOS and Android apps stream as bit perfect but the desktop apps do not. Is there a bit perfect limitation to the Apple Android app when playing on a DAP (ie, Hiby, iBasso, Fiio, etc)?



The problem is with Android. Android resamples everything unless you use a secondary app like UAPP and an external dac. Tidal has recently adjusted their android app so that it bypasses Androids resampling. It would be incredible if Apple did that for their Android app. Or if UAPP integraded Apple.


----------



## rlw6534

imackler said:


> The problem is with Android. Android resamples everything unless you use a secondary app like UAPP and an external dac. Tidal has recently adjusted their android app so that it bypasses Androids resampling. It would be incredible if Apple did that for their Android app. Or if UAPP integraded Apple.



I'm getting bitperfect (with matching sample rates) on my Hiby and Shanling DAPs.  I suspect it is working with most DAPs that have SRC bypass like Hiby's DTA.  Also Android 10 and later should support 192 kHz if the device has the hardware...


----------



## imackler

rlw6534 said:


> I'm getting bitperfect (with matching sample rates) on my Hiby and Shanling DAPs.  I suspect it is working with most DAPs that have SRC bypass like Hiby's DTA.


What does "SRC bypass like Hiby's DTA" mean? 

Can you listen off-line to lossless with the Hiby and Shanling daps? You have to sideload the Apple app, right?


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 27, 2021)

imackler said:


> What does "SRC bypass like Hiby's DTA" mean?
> 
> Can you listen off-line to lossless with the Hiby and Shanling daps? You have to sideload the Apple app, right?



SRC (Sample Rate Conversion) is what many Android devices do to music (resampled to 24 bit 48 kHz).   Hiby DTA (Direct Transport Architecture) is a feature which bypasses the forced SRC and allows music to played at the native rate.  Shanling and Fiio also do this but it's called something different (AGLO - Android Global Lossless Output - for Shanling).

Yes, offline lossless is supported and works.

My devices have Google Play so the Apple Music app is installed from the store, not side-loaded.


----------



## imackler

rlw6534 said:


> SRC (Sample Rate Conversion) is what many Android devices do to music (resampled to 24 bit 48 kHz).   Hiby DTA (Direct Transport Architecture) is a feature which bypasses the forced SRC and allows music to played at the native rate.  Shanling and Fiio also do this but it's called something different (AGLO - Android Global Lossless Output - for Shanling).
> 
> Yes, offline lossless is supported and works.
> 
> My devices have Google Play so the Apple Music app is installed from the store, not side-loaded.



This is really awesome news... Thank you! Last question: which daps do you have?


----------



## rlw6534

imackler said:


> This is really awesome news... Thank you! Last question: which daps do you have?



I have several (too many).   I know my HiBy R5 and R6 2020 and Shanling M3x all work with Apple Music lossless and hi-res and display the correct sample rate.  You can look under my "Spoiler:Gear" button for others I own.  I can test the others with Apple Music if that would help.  Not all of them display sample rate so I can't be sure on some.


----------



## Luis Mad

I have the Astell & Kern SR25, Apple Music is side loaded on the player and it is bit perfect. I download and use offline Apple Music mainly with hires files, also lossless. Sound is amazing. I have several very long playlists downloaded on the player.


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 27, 2021)

Luis Mad said:


> I have the Astell & Kern SR25, Apple Music is side loaded on the player and it is bit perfect. I download and use offline Apple Music mainly with hires files, also lossless. Sound is amazing. I have several very long playlists downloaded on the player.



How do you know it is bitperfect?  The SR25 gives no clue as to actual system sample rate, correct?  I hope it is but how can you be sure?


----------



## Luis Mad

rlw6534 said:


> How do you know it is bitperfect?  The SR25 gives no clue as to actual system sample rate, correct?  I hope it is but how can you be sure?


You are absolutely right I do not have the means to measure it! I believe it is bit perfect. The SR25 has a Usb audio out mode but I do not have amp or dac that would let me know the sample rate.


----------



## rlw6534

Luis Mad said:


> You are absolutely right I do not have the means to measure it! I believe it is bit perfect. The SR25 has a Usb audio out mode but I do not have amp or dac that would let me know the sample rate.



Actually I was hoping you had figured out a way to verify...   I like my SR15 and SP1000M but I'm never quite sure what they are actually doing bitrate-wise with 3rd party apps.


----------



## Ken G

rlw6534 said:


> I have several (too many).   I know my HiBy R5 and R6 2020 and Shanling M3x all work with Apple Music lossless and hi-res and display the correct sample rate.  You can look under my "Spoiler:Gear" button for others I own.  I can test the others with Apple Music if that would help.  Not all of them display sample rate so I can't be sure on some.


The iBasso Dx300 also works around the Android sample rate issue and displays the correct sample rate.


----------



## rlw6534

Ken G said:


> The iBasso Dx300 also works around the Android sample rate issue and displays the correct sample rate.



Yeah, I probably should have said most modern DAPs can bypass SRC, although it's always best to ask and be sure about specific models.


----------



## No Disc

rlw6534 said:


> I have several (too many).   I know my HiBy R5 and R6 2020 and Shanling M3x all work with Apple Music lossless and hi-res and display the correct sample rate.  You can look under my "Spoiler:Gear" button for others I own.  I can test the others with Apple Music if that would help.  Not all of them display sample rate so I can't be sure on some.


I was thinking of getting the R3 Pro to try out with AM to my Mojo.  What is required to get AM working with the R3?   Do I have to install an app, or is the ability built in?


----------



## rlw6534 (Sep 28, 2021)

No Disc said:


> I was thinking of getting the R3 Pro to try out with AM to my Mojo.  What is required to get AM working with the R3?   Do I have to install an app, or is the ability built in?



The R3 Pro does not run Android and only has Tidal and Qobuz built-in.  There isn't any way to install 3rd party apps.  Your best bet for lowest cost is the HiBy R5:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.9.264c3616hRbEDW


----------



## No Disc

rlw6534 said:


> The R3 Pro does not run Android and only has Tidal and Qobuz built-in.  There isn't any way to install 3rd party apps.  Your best bet for lowest cost is the HiBy R5:
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.9.264c3616hRbEDW


What is the app I would need to install for Apple Music?  Is the process straightforward?


----------



## rlw6534

No Disc said:


> What is the app I would need to install for Apple Music?  Is the process straightforward?



The R5 has the Google Play Store installed so you just install from the store like any other Android device (the app is free).  That might be different depending on your country (like China).


----------



## No Disc

rlw6534 said:


> The R5 has the Google Play Store installed so you just install from the store like any other Android device (the app is free).  That might be different depending on your country (like China).


Yeah, I’m in China. AFAIK no google play store here.


----------



## rlw6534

No Disc said:


> Yeah, I’m in China. AFAIK no google play store here.



You may be able to side-load the AM apk that you can find on the internet (like apkpure.com).   I don't know for sure, perhaps someone can verify.  I have an Astell & Kern DAP that doesn't have the Play Store and was able to get it to work, but I'm in US.


----------



## Luis Mad

rlw6534 said:


> Actually I was hoping you had figured out a way to verify...   I like my SR15 and SP1000M but I'm never quite sure what they are actually doing bitrate-wise with 3rd party apps.


I have found a way to verify. I have used a cable like this https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B01NANIKK1/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 to connect my SR25 as usb audio out to a Sony Nwa55L in dac mode. The result is the Sony displays the correct khz when using Apple Music. I change the musical piece and the Sony automatically changes to the correct type of pcm khz. See pictures of lossless and hires Apple Music.


----------



## rlw6534

Luis Mad said:


> I have found a way to verify. I have used a cable like this https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B01NANIKK1/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 to connect my SR25 as usb audio out to a Sony Nwa55L in dac mode. The result is the Sony displays the correct khz when using Apple Music. I change the musical piece and the Sony automatically changes to the correct type of pcm khz. See pictures of lossless and hires Apple Music.



Very helpful.   Thank you!


----------



## bluenight

Is anyone else having crackling sound when using airplay with apple music?

When i send from my apple tv4k to CXNv2 streamer.

I dont know if its there implatation thats faulty or if its an universal airplay issue?

Optical out from tv to hugo 2 dac dont have that crackling sound with same content. 

Really like there sound from all there atmos stuff, sounds highres and smooth.


----------



## myromeo

does the Hiby R5 support atoms also? if not what DAP do you recommend for AM high res lossless and atmos?


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> does the Hiby R5 support atoms also? if not what DAP do you recommend for AM high res lossless and atmos?



No the R5 does not support Atmos.  I am not aware of any DAPs that do.  There are some Android high-end phones that offer it (i.e. Samsung) but that's it.   There are several DAPs that support Amazon Music and Apple lossless/hi-res (but not Atmos).  What's your budget?


----------



## myromeo

rlw6534 said:


> No the R5 does not support Atmos.  I am not aware of any DAPs that do.  There are some Android high-end phones that offer it (i.e. Samsung) but that's it.   There are several DAPs that support Amazon Music and Apple lossless/hi-res (but not Atmos).  What's your budget?


Ah that’s a shame. I haven’t really looked into them enough to consider a budget to be honest, probably looking around £350. My NW-A105 is doing great still I just have that new toy itch, I fancy something that can sorta do it all, gotta be android based for third party apps, system wide bit perfect playback, MQA for tidal and have balanced out. At the moment I run a small amp with my A105 which I find helps the sound be more immersive so I only imagine going balanced with 500mW+ being an significant improvement.

I’ll probably upgrade my IEM’s before changing my DAP to be honest but when I do it’ll need to meet the above. atmos would be a bonus. i fancy a pair of blessing2:dusk but the price makes me die a little inside!


----------



## rlw6534

myromeo said:


> Ah that’s a shame. I haven’t really looked into them enough to consider a budget to be honest, probably looking around £350. My NW-A105 is doing great still I just have that new toy itch, I fancy something that can sorta do it all, gotta be android based for third party apps, system wide bit perfect playback, MQA for tidal and have balanced out. At the moment I run a small amp with my A105 which I find helps the sound be more immersive so I only imagine going balanced with 500mW+ being an significant improvement.
> 
> I’ll probably upgrade my IEM’s before changing my DAP to be honest but when I do it’ll need to meet the above. atmos would be a bonus. i fancy a pair of blessing2:dusk but the price makes me die a little inside!



Yes, I understand the itch.   The Hiby R5 is a good starting point for what you want (and only £200 currently on Aliexpress).   The Shanling M3X is also a good choice.  You can move upmarket for more $$$ but these have all of the basic desired features for an Android DAP and work well with 3rd party apps.  If you have an iPhone there are also several capable dongles out there.


----------



## originalsnuffy

I noticed that the Apple spatial (atmos) tracks are AAC; which means they are using lossy compression.   A bit disappointing.


----------



## rlw6534

originalsnuffy said:


> I noticed that the Apple spatial (atmos) tracks are AAC; which means they are using lossy compression.   A bit disappointing.


Agreed.


----------



## Soundizer

originalsnuffy said:


> I noticed that the Apple spatial (atmos) tracks are AAC; which means they are using lossy compression.   A bit disappointing.


Yes very disappointing. Hence i turned off Atmos and listen to highest available lossless version downloaded. The lossless downloaded quality is excellent.


----------



## Sandwiches

They changed the quality setting category to "Wi-Fi and 5G Streaming" which is so dumb. I want hi-res at home and AAC when I'm using my data plan, duh


----------



## Luis Mad

Sandwiches said:


> They changed the quality setting category to "Wi-Fi and 5G Streaming" which is so dumb. I want hi-res at home and AAC when I'm using my data plan, duh


Not in Europe! I’m in the latest 15.0.2 and I can choose different quality for mobile, wifi and downloads


----------



## Figjam

Luis Mad said:


> Not in Europe! I’m in the latest 15.0.2 and I can choose different quality for mobile, wifi and downloads


Same here in Australia (15.0.2).


----------



## Sandwiches

That'll teach me not to update (no it won't)


----------



## Sandwiches

Nah, updating didn't help. This is on an iPhone 13 w/ 5G. Lumping 5G and Wi-Fi together is so dumb ugh.


----------



## Figjam

Can you post a screenshot? Surely it can't be region specific?


----------



## u2u2

Sandwiches said:


> They changed the quality setting category to "Wi-Fi and 5G Streaming" which is so dumb. I want hi-res at home and AAC when I'm using my data plan, duh


North of the 49th. Just did the update on a 13 Pro Max. Same as earlier version, get to choose setting for wifi and cellular separately. The choices only show if cellular data for music is toggled on. Real long shot but could this be carrier related?


----------



## Sandwiches

AT&T USA


----------



## rlw6534 (Oct 13, 2021)

u2u2 said:


> North of the 49th. Just did the update on a 13 Pro Max. Same as earlier version, get to choose setting for wifi and cellular separately. The choices only show if cellular data for music is toggled on. Real long shot but could this be carrier related?



It's likely dependent on the specific iPhone model and cellular 5G support.  Only the iPhone 12 and later have true 5G support, and that depends on the carrier.


----------



## baldrayo

If you go to Settings > Cellular > Cellular Data Options > Data Mode, and switch to "STANDARD" instead of "Allow More Data on 5G" the Audio Quality settings in Music separate Wi-Fi and Cellular Streaming


----------



## OneEyedHito

baldrayo said:


> If you go to Settings > Cellular > Cellular Data Options > Data Mode, and switch to "STANDARD" instead of "Allow More Data on 5G" the Audio Quality settings in Music separate Wi-Fi and Cellular Streaming


Thank you!!!


----------



## Stevko (Nov 6, 2021)

Any good mfi cable with lightning / usb-c and support for digital audio stream?
Gonna use this instead of a usb cable and camera adapter.


----------



## efftee

Stevko said:


> Any good mfi cable with lightning / usb-c and support for digital audio stream?
> Gonna use this instead of a usb cable and camera adapter.


I've not found any with the MFI certification, many manufacturers are not willing to pay the Apple royalty (moon-audio has some colourful words about that!). Depending on your devices, you could try the quite reliable didihifi data cable. You should know though, some devices would only work with the camera adaptor, which is also currently the only option that offers charging while listening. Good luck!


----------



## Anaz

Stevko said:


> Any good mfi cable with lightning / usb-c and support for digital audio stream?
> Gonna use this instead of a usb cable and camera adapter.


I have a Meenova lightning to USB micro that I use to connect a Mojo - it’s been great. They have a lightning to USB C cable on Amazon.


----------



## Dbriv

Stevko said:


> Any good mfi cable with lightning / usb-c and support for digital audio stream?
> Gonna use this instead of a usb cable and camera adapter.


I just got a ddhifi lightning to usb-c from Audio 46 for $30. Seems to be better quality than the one that came with my W2.


----------



## euter

Could someone confirm that Qobuz sounds better (dynamics, clarity, resolution…) then Apple Music?


----------



## CharlyBrown

euter said:


> Could someone confirm that Qobuz sounds better (dynamics, clarity, resolution…) then Apple Music?



No, It’s all just in your brain. No way to differentiate sound quality in a well implemented blind test between the two. The only (rare) exception exists if one of the services had a better source before compression.


----------



## Anaz

euter said:


> Could someone confirm that Qobuz sounds better (dynamics, clarity, resolution…) then Apple Music?


I currently have Apple Music and Qobuz  and I honestly can't hear any difference - if there was a difference in sound like with MQA, then some would have laid out scientific evidence.  The only difference is in use case: I have Apple One for the family so tend to use Apple Music on iOS devices, and, in order to get bit perfect audio when on a computer, I use Qobuz. (I also have a couple of months remaining on an annual Tidal membership, but I'm not renewing it).


----------



## Knightsfan11

myromeo said:


> Ah that’s a shame. I haven’t really looked into them enough to consider a budget to be honest, probably looking around £350. My NW-A105 is doing great still I just have that new toy itch, I fancy something that can sorta do it all, gotta be android based for third party apps, system wide bit perfect playback, MQA for tidal and have balanced out. At the moment I run a small amp with my A105 which I find helps the sound be more immersive so I only imagine going balanced with 500mW+ being an significant improvement.
> 
> I’ll probably upgrade my IEM’s before changing my DAP to be honest but when I do it’ll need to meet the above. atmos would be a bonus. i fancy a pair of blessing2:dusk but the price makes me die a little inside!


Can highly recommend LZ A7 IEM.. check them out.


----------



## pilgrimbilly

Evening all.

New to Apple Music, and had an iPhone 12 PM for a year or so. Have so far never needed iTunes - I use iMazing and love it - but think I may have to bite the iTunes bullet.

I've converted a lot of my own FLAC music to ALAC and want to upload them to my Apple Music library, but not to my iphone - I can stream for free, and might as well upload everything to AM.

I've so far not found a non-iTunes way to do this.

Is there a way?

Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## rlw6534

pilgrimbilly said:


> Evening all.
> 
> New to Apple Music, and had an iPhone 12 PM for a year or so. Have so far never needed iTunes - I use iMazing and love it - but think I may have to bite the iTunes bullet.
> 
> ...



I don't have an answer for you outside of iTunes.  If you are considering using the iTunes Match service I would warn you that it's unclear (at least to me) how it handles ALAC files so test and make sure they aren't converted to AAC 256 when matched.  My library is a mess of mixed formats.


----------



## pilgrimbilly

rlw6534 said:


> I don't have an answer for you outside of iTunes.  If you are considering using the iTunes Match service I would warn you that it's unclear (at least to me) how it handles ALAC files so test and make sure they aren't converted to AAC 256 when matched.  My library is a mess of mixed formats.


Thanks. Just partitioned my disk on my pc in the hope that I can keep my seemingly inevitable itunes installation under some sort of control. Haven't used it for about 8 years, and that was on my kid's pc - didn't care what it did there!

I'm not deep in the Apple ecosystem - phone and APM, nothing else - and disk space isn't a problem, so I'm keeping the FLAC and ALACs. 
My Apple Music library is fortunately tiny, only started 5 days ago, so hopefully don't need Match yet.

PITA. But impressed by AM so far and if I'm going to stream I might as well go all in.


----------



## Nellie75 (Dec 7, 2021)

I am running my ATV4k to my TV with HDMI.  My Samsung TV has spdif out.  In the menu I see two options for digital out, PCM or DTS Neo 2.5.  (PCM works DTS does not) I am sending this to my DAC and then Marantz receiver for listening to Apple Lossless music.  Is there any SQ advantage to getting an audio extractor or am I fine just letting my TV act as the audio extractor.  I just dont know if the TV would mess with the SQ.


----------



## Nellie75 (Dec 8, 2021)

Well I got one from Amazon tonight and it works well. Not sure the sound quality can be improved but at least I don’t have to have the TV on to transmit a signal.


----------



## rlw6534

Nellie75 said:


> Does the family sharing option with Apple Music give family members the ability to view your entire library?  These are songs I just “added to library” not actually own.


 No.  Everyones's libraries are kept separate under each person's id.


----------



## u2u2

Nellie75 said:


> Does the family sharing option with Apple Music give family members the ability to view your entire library?  These are songs I just “added to library” not actually own.


I just tried to check this out on my spouses iPhone with whom I family share. It shows everything I have been adding all along. Added several albums a day each day over the past week on my iPad. What is interesting is that while all the content synched to both our phones some of the artwork that went to the phones is different than on the iPad… You must turn “Sync Library” on in the music settings on each device for this to work. It is only separate if sync is set to off. If a sharing member wants to view your library they just need to turn sync on and if you have your device set to on they have it!


----------



## Nellie75

u2u2 said:


> I just tried to check this out on my spouses iPhone with whom I family share. It shows everything I have been adding all along. Added several albums a day each day over the past week on my iPad. What is interesting is that while all the content synched to both our phones some of the artwork that went to the phones is different than on the iPad… You must turn “Sync Library” on in the music settings on each device for this to work. It is only separate if sync is set to off. If a sharing member wants to view your library they just need to turn sync on and if you have your device set to on they have it!


Thanks for your response.  I’ve done everything you said.  My family can access Apple Music and I can share individual songs/albums (which is basically just texting it).  They can also see what I’ve  listened to recently but that the same to anyone who follows you.  What they can’t do is see what’s in my library.  I’ll keep looking into it but it’s a couple hours and I’ve exhausted about everything now.


----------



## pilgrimbilly (Dec 9, 2021)

Afternoon all.

Have been uploading some of my music to AM (see recent post).

On about 20% of my albums, the audio quality text below the progress bar is missing. Seems to be random and I've no idea why.

All albums are my own FLAC rips from CDs and transcoded to ALAC in dbPoweramp.

Thanks for any help. It's annoying me more than it should!

Edit - just noticed that it's the same within albums too - some tracks display it, some are blank.


----------



## Nellie75

pilgrimbilly said:


> Afternoon all.
> 
> Have been uploading some of my music to AM (see recent post).
> 
> ...


None of my uploads showed Lossless or Hi Res text labels.  I figured it was just the way it is.   However, I just ripped through iTunes at 16/44.  Does ripping at higher bit rates give better SQ?  Doesn’t it have to upscale and mess with the ratios?

Out of 1000 CDs I own, I only had to rip about 25 CDs (mostly soundtracks) as everything was already there in lossless.  I was surprised, and only 4 CDs were actually missing completely.


----------



## pilgrimbilly (Dec 9, 2021)

Nellie75 said:


> None of my uploads showed Lossless or Hi Res text labels.  I figured it was just the way it is.   However, I just ripped through iTunes at 16/44.  Does ripping at higher bit rates give better SQ?  Doesn’t it have to upscale and mess with the ratios?
> 
> Out of 1000 CDs I own, I only had to rip about 25 CDs (mostly soundtracks) as everything was already there in lossless.  I was surprised, and only 4 CDs were actually missing completely.


I read your post about ripping your collection - glad you didn't have to do all 1000!

I have 1800 CDs ripped, but did it over 2 years in 2013-2015.

Maybe I shouldn't sweat it. They sound fine, and the bitrates are as they should be.

Will do a big batch and throw in some purchased downloads from Qobuz and HDtracks and see what happens.


----------



## cinemakinoeye (Dec 9, 2021)

Nellie75 said:


> [...]  I just ripped through iTunes at 16/44.  Does ripping at higher bit rates give better SQ?  Doesn’t it have to upscale and mess with the ratios? Out of 1000 CDs I own, I only had to rip about 25 CDs (mostly soundtracks) as everything was already there in lossless.  I was surprised, and only 4 CDs were actually missing completely.


There is no logical reason I can think of at the moment to rip an Audio CD into anything other than Red Book format (16-bit values sampled at 44.1 kHz sample rate). Upsampling will not improve the audio quality contrary to some myths circulating to that effect.


----------



## cinemakinoeye (Dec 9, 2021)

Between Apple adding Lossless audio to Music and their recent updates that have made ye olde Airport Express devices into Airplay 2 nodes, Apple has made a lot of improvements to the music listening experience. I hope to see more Airplay 2 compatible devices.


----------



## Failed Engineer

I'm tiring of Tidal's continuation of its library's mqa-ification and having less normal FLAC each successive day.  Now testing out Apple Music in my home setup.  I'm happily ensconced in the Apple ecosystem I already use it in the car and out and about so generally comfortable with it.  I'm pleased with the lossless audio quality out of iOS devices airplayed to my shairport endpoints.  Battery drain on airplay is a real drawback but no dealbreaker.

The stumbling block I have now is replicating something near to the music discovery features of Roon.  I know there's nothing like Roon and Apple Music does have some of it (similar artists linked on artist pages, etc) but Roon takes it to another level on album pages and with other features.

The Apple Music API has allowed for some developers to create nice apps, like Marvis, Miximum, and Soor, but those focus more on slicing and dicing your existing libraries and data.  I'm looking for more for auto playlist generation from few inputs (artists, albums) and jumping from albums to similar albums while browsing (like how you can from artist to similar artists).  Also a better way to find recent album releases and be able to sort them by date which Apple Music puzzlingly can't do.

Anyone have some hidden gems for music discovery that integrate with AM?


----------



## avgonzalez77

Anyone know how Apple's music library compares to Spotify or Tidal?


----------



## bfreedma

Failed Engineer said:


> I'm tiring of Tidal's continuation of its library's mqa-ification and having less normal FLAC each successive day.  Now testing out Apple Music in my home setup.  I'm happily ensconced in the Apple ecosystem I already use it in the car and out and about so generally comfortable with it.  I'm pleased with the lossless audio quality out of iOS devices airplayed to my shairport endpoints.  Battery drain on airplay is a real drawback but no dealbreaker.
> 
> The stumbling block I have now is replicating something near to the music discovery features of Roon.  I know there's nothing like Roon and Apple Music does have some of it (similar artists linked on artist pages, etc) but Roon takes it to another level on album pages and with other features.
> 
> ...



Will be interesting to see what, if anything, gets posted about AM integration.  I also like Roon's interface and music discovery capabilities, so have stayed with Qobuz.

Apple is on record stating that they won't be opening up the API for Roon, so unless Apple buys Roon, not sure much will change for me in the mid term.  With Tidal and Qobuz bleeding money and the big players (Apple/Amazon) entering the market in competition with Spotify, I think it is a real possibility that Roon will be acquired as Tidal and Qobuz seem to have poor long term prospects.


----------



## avgonzalez77

Does Apple Music work with Roon at this point?


----------



## cinemakinoeye

avgonzalez77 said:


> Anyone know how Apple's music library compares to Spotify or Tidal?


CNET published a comparison of the two services recently. Both Apple Music and Spotify have a similar breadth of coverage when it comes to popular music but each has some exclusives here and there but the biggest difference is Apple Music does not offer a free tier. I have Apple Music and sticking to it, my wife has Spotify and sticking to it. We each like the quirky aspects of the interfaces we've used for years. When we compare notes, there are occasionally some titles that one service will have that the other does not. For example, Spotify has Kora Jazz Trio Volumes 1 through IV, but Apple Music only has Volumes I and IV.


----------



## kumar402

avgonzalez77 said:


> Does Apple Music work with Roon at this point?


No, it doesn’t


----------



## avgonzalez77

cinemakinoeye said:


> CNET published a comparison of the two services recently. Both Apple Music and Spotify have a similar breadth of coverage when it comes to popular music but each has some exclusives here and there but the biggest difference is Apple Music does not offer a free tier. I have Apple Music and sticking to it, my wife has Spotify and sticking to it. We each like the quirky aspects of the interfaces we've used for years. When we compare notes, there are occasionally some titles that one service will have that the other does not. For example, Spotify has Kora Jazz Trio Volumes 1 through IV, but Apple Music only has Volumes I and IV.


Thank you!


----------



## Failed Engineer

I think you can pretty confidently say that Apple will never give Roon the type of API that Roon needs from its partners.

I'm just wondering how much of Roon's capability I can replicate with AM integrated sources, or AM itself.


----------



## Nellie75

avgonzalez77 said:


> Does Apple Music work with Roon at this point?


No


----------



## lamsta

Hi Head-Fiers,

Are there any audiophile level streamers / players (Innous or Antipodes level) that integrate with Apple Music?

Thanks in advance


----------



## cinemakinoeye (Dec 10, 2021)

lamsta said:


> [...] Are there any audiophile level streamers / players (Innous or Antipodes level) that integrate with Apple Music? [...]


When you think about it, the ultimate Apple Music streamer is a Mac. Really. Seriously. Consider this:

From my perspective, in terms of maximizing subjective pleasure vs. expense ratio, a system built around a Mac (e.g. MacBook Air starting at $999 USD) is better than any streamer if you choose to swim in the Apple Music ecosystem. With a Mac as your central node, you have a huge amount of storage for AIF and ALAC files, along with access to Apple Music via high-quality streaming or Lossless file downloads. From this as your base node in a system, you can send high-quality Redbook and 24/48 files via USB to the DAC of your choice connected to the Mac (e.g. JDS Labs Atom +, Schiit Modi, etc.) or you can stream via your WiFi network to one or more Airport 2 compatible nodes on your WiFi network. At the moment, a used Airport Express makes an excellent Airport 2 node with digital optical and analog SE outputs.

Now a numbers-oriented audiophile might say that this does not support exotic "high-resolution" formats, and that is true, so if those are important to you the Apple ecosystem and Apple Music might not be in the running since Apple does not always play nice with the other children (e.g. their cold shoulder to Roon). But as someone who has listened to music and film soundtracks on several high-end systems  (in people's homes as well as a couple of CES high-end audio shows) and a variety of mixing studios in Boston, Los Angeles, and New York, my Apple Music and Airport 2 ecosystem in my home sound pretty good in comparison to the memories of those experiences, and the key has been putting money into better speakers and/or headphones rather than the pursuit of exotic formats, as putting money into room treatments and transducers yields far more improvement to sound quality.

Whatever you choose, consider the entire ecosystem cost and the subjective pleasure of the whole of whatever you put together, the numbers, to me, don't matter if I can't hear a difference. I'm one of those people who can't hear the difference between [insert your favorite high-resolution audio format] and ye olde Redbook (16-bit/44.1KHz) audio files, but I can only speak to my own experience. I'm happily trapped in the Apple ecosystem, and the convenience of having my playlists across iPhone, iPad, and desktop is compelling, ruling out most other streaming options. Whether something is audiophile quality is the most subjective of evaluations and to me, what I've described is audiophile quality and depends more on the headphones and speakers as long as the other components (source files, DAC, preamplification, amplification) measure up to quality standards.


----------



## iamoneagain

cinemakinoeye said:


> When you think about it, the ultimate Apple Music streamer is a Mac. Really. Seriously. Consider this:
> 
> From my perspective, in terms of maximizing subjective pleasure vs. expense ratio, a system built around a Mac (e.g. MacBook Air starting at $999 USD) is better than any streamer if you choose to swim in the Apple Music ecosystem. With a Mac as your central node, you have a huge amount of storage for AIF and ALAC files, along with access to Apple Music via high-quality streaming or Lossless file downloads. From this as your base node in a system, you can send high-quality Redbook and 24/48 files via USB to the DAC of your choice connected to the Mac (e.g. JDS Labs Atom +, Schiit Modi, etc.) or you can stream via your WiFi network to one or more Airport 2 compatible nodes on your WiFi network. At the moment, a used Airport Express makes an excellent Airport 2 node with digital optical and analog SE outputs.
> 
> ...


Isn’t there still an issue with exclusive mode in the Mac where it won’t automatically switch sampling rates with Apple Music? And I believe Airplay might be lossless from the Mac but only up to 48/24. If you use an iPhone connected to a dac with camera connector you get automatic sampling rates working but If use Airplay to Airplay 2 device, will be aac lossy.


----------



## Soundizer

iamoneagain said:


> Isn’t there still an issue with exclusive mode in the Mac where it won’t automatically switch sampling rates with Apple Music? And I believe Airplay might be lossless from the Mac but only up to 48/24. If you use an iPhone connected to a dac with camera connector you get automatic sampling rates working but If use Airplay to Airplay 2 device, will be aac lossy.


That is exactly the problem. If Apple addressed this issue then why bother with another device player. Simply plug in DAC/AMP to the Mac.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

iamoneagain said:


> Isn’t there still an issue with exclusive mode in the Mac where it won’t automatically switch sampling rates with Apple Music? And I believe Airplay might be lossless from the Mac but only up to 48/24. If you use an iPhone connected to a dac with camera connector you get automatic sampling rates working but If use Airplay to Airplay 2 device, will be aac lossy.


This is true. If your goal is bit perfect flow from source to playback device, the Apple ecosystem is probably not the best environment for you. 

AFAIK AirPlay 1 and AirPlay 2 are capable of ALAC (lossless) streaming up to 44.1 kHz for audio and 48 kHz for video. Hi-res lossless formats over 48 kHz are not supported via AirPlay 1 or Airplay 2. AirPlay 1 streams are sometimes ALAC and sometimes AAC (high quality lossy), but AirPlay 2 streams are AAC (correct  me if I am wrong). I don’t mind as it sounds great and with Airplay 1 I experienced numerous dropouts and now with recent iOS updates and the most recent update available for the AirPort Express (making it AirPort 2 capable) I have not experienced dropouts, the only audible difference I have noticed.


----------



## iamoneagain

cinemakinoeye said:


> This is true. If your goal is bit perfect flow from source to playback device, the Apple ecosystem is probably not the best environment for you.
> 
> AFAIK AirPlay 1 and AirPlay 2 are capable of ALAC (lossless) streaming up to 44.1 kHz for audio and 48 kHz for video. Hi-res lossless formats over 48 kHz are not supported via AirPlay 1 or Airplay 2. AirPlay 1 streams are sometimes ALAC and sometimes AAC (high quality lossy), but AirPlay 2 streams are AAC (correct  me if I am wrong). I don’t mind as it sounds great and with Airplay 1 I experienced numerous dropouts and now with recent iOS updates and the most recent update available for the AirPort Express (making it AirPort 2 capable) I have not experienced dropouts, the only audible difference I have noticed.


For Airplay 2 devices, they are capable of receiving Airplay 2 steams and classic Airplay streams. The apps on the phones are also capable of streaming in both methods. It’s been shown that Qobuz steaming to a Naim device with Airplay 2 receives it as a classic Airplay steam and it’s played back lossless at 44/16. But playing Apple Music steams in Airplay 2 mode and is lossy 256 acc. What has not been shown is whether an Airplay 2 steam can also be done in lossless 44/16. But people point out Airplay 2 should be capable of lossless streaming and Apple Music seems to either be intentionally limiting this or something was overlooked. Someone thought it was intentionally in order to better handle streaming to multiple devices. Seems weird to kill the lossless feature in order to help people with weak network connections.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

iamoneagain said:


> […] Seems weird to kill the lossless feature in order to help people with weak network connections.


It’s really not so strange when you think about Apple’s design philosophy and how they emphasize simplicity and end user experience, as far as I’m concerned, I’m really happy that they chose to improve the overall experience between airplay 1 airplay 2, and I can’t hear the difference, but I certainly am happy about not getting drop outs anymore. Any product or ecosystem always involves a set of trade-offs, and Apple has their own set of trade-offs, while and other vendors make different trade-offs.


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## iamoneagain (Dec 11, 2021)

cinemakinoeye said:


> It’s really not so strange when you think about Apple’s design philosophy and how they emphasize simplicity and end user experience, as far as I’m concerned, I’m really happy that they chose to improve the overall experience between airplay 1 airplay 2, and I can’t hear the difference, but I certainly am happy about not getting drop outs anymore. Any product or ecosystem always involves a set of trade-offs, and Apple has their own set of trade-offs, while and other vendors make different trade-offs.


It’s nice that it works for you and many others but it seems like a shortcoming when they introduced lossless hires. Having to directly hook up your phone to the dac to get lossless actually seems the opposite of simplicity and ease of use. There really should be no reason the whole thing can’t work wirelessly. Roon is able to handle hires files wirelessly to multiple devices.

I think Apple should have allowed it to wirelessly stream lossless and if having drop outs, then manually change the setting to lossy. Of have auto rate setting and it switches to best rate for your network. Essential anyone streaming Apple Music to an Airplay 2 device is getting no benefit of their updated service as far as lossless goes. Most will think atmos is the bigger improvement, even though it’s lossy.


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## Luis Mad (Dec 11, 2021)

For me with the possibilities that I know, there is no contest to an AppleTV4k as streamer of Apple Music. No bit perfect everything is sent in 24/48. It goes hdmi to my Sony tv then digital toshlink to my Yamaha preamp and streamer then to my Denon amp.
I have tried streaming with the IPad camera adapter and Dragonfly direct to the Denon amp that is bit perfect and up to 24/96. Sincerely I cannot hear a difference. Maybe with a high end equipment but I could but not with my Denon amp and B&W basic floor speakers. Or maybe is my mid fifties ears that are not so sensitive anymore.
I tried also connecting my Astell Sr25 which has Apple Music in high res and has line out and bit perfect. Here there might be a very minimum improvement, I am not sure, compared with the AppleTV4k, but no remote control.
The AppleTV4k is very easy and convenient to operate using the IPhone or IPad as remote and taking control of what is playing in the AppleTV4k.
Sound quality to my ears is excellent and the AppleTV4k makes no noise at all unlike pcs and laptops.
 Also being in a windows pc world: we have 4 pc laptops and one desktop in my home, I would not dream of buying a Mac, too much hassle considering everyone at home has to use pc for work and /or study.
Furthermore with the AppleTV4k I watch and listen to Digital Concert Hall, the amazing platform of the Berliner Philarmoniker, high quality classical concerts. Lately I have wonderful sessions of Digital Concert Hall connected to the stereo in the previously explained manner and then to my new AKG K712 pro: the result is fantastic to my ears. I can feel the strings closer to a real live performance.
Also less often but sometimes I send stuff with AirPlay from apps available in the IPad (like for example the one from Elbphilarmonie) but not in the AppleTV4k. I send image and sound to the AppleTV4k with nice results.
Of course I would prefer to have something streaming hi res bit perfect but the AppleTV4k gives excellent results to my ears and eyes!


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## Nellie75 (Dec 11, 2021)

Luis Mad said:


> For me with the possibilities that I know, there is no contest to an AppleTV4k as streamer of Apple Music. No bit perfect everything is sent in 24/48. It goes hdmi to my Sony tv then digital toshlink to my Yamaha preamp and streamer then to my Denon amp.
> I have tried streaming with the IPad camera adapter and Dragonfly direct to the Denon amp that is bit perfect and up to 24/96. Sincerely I cannot hear a difference. Maybe with a high end equipment but I could but not with my Denon amp and B&W basic floor speakers. Or maybe is my mid fifties ears that are not so sensitive anymore.
> I tried also connecting my Astell Sr25 which has Apple Music in high res and has line out and bit perfect. Here there might be a very minimum improvement, I am not sure, compared with the AppleTV4k, but no remote control.
> The AppleTV4k is very easy and convenient to operate using the IPhone or IPad as remote and taking control of what is playing in the AppleTV4k.
> ...



I fully concur!  I have had apple music for just a week (switched from Amazon Music UHD) and the sound quality is amazing off my AppleTV4K.  I did an A/B test with my DAC amp input switch.  Going back and forth between my iPhone 12 and AppleTV4K on the same track.  I could not discern any difference (my ears are 46 years old thought Lol). 

Before even reading your post, earlier today I had posted in the Amazon Music thread almost the exact same thing you wrote here.  https://www.https://www.head-fi.org/threads/amazon-launches-music-hd-with-lossless-streaming.905493/post-16706921head-fi.org/threads/apple-music--now-with-lossless-high-res-and-spatial-audio.957555/


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## Luis Mad (Dec 11, 2021)

Nellie75 said:


> I fully concur!  I have had apple music for just a week (switched from Amazon Music UHD) and the sound quality is amazing off my AppleTV4K.  I did an A/B test with my DAC amp input switch.  Going back and forth between my iPhone 12 and AppleTV4K on the same track.  I could not discern any difference (my ears are 46 years old thought Lol).
> 
> Before even reading your post, earlier today I had posted in the Amazon Music thread almost the exact same thing you wrote here.  https://www.https://www.head-fi.org/threads/amazon-launches-music-hd-with-lossless-streaming.905493/post-16706921head-fi.org/threads/apple-music--now-with-lossless-high-res-and-spatial-audio.957555/


Amazing! Amazon HD launched not long ago in Spain and I had a three months free pass as an Amazon prime subscriber. My experience was similar to yours. I also ran Amazon through a pc to my dac and stereo. I also prefer Apple Music to Amazon HD.
Only thing I forgot to mention is as follows: the thing I do not like of AppleTV4K is that you have to have the tv screen on, even with beautiful screensavers it can be distractive and bring too much light. That is why I have installed as screensaver in my AppleTV4k a completely black picture. The tv screen is still on but is not as agressive.


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## Nellie75 (Dec 11, 2021)

Luis Mad said:


> Amazing! Amazon HD launched not long ago in Spain and I had a three months free pass as an Amazon prime subscriber. My experience was similar to yours. I also ran Amazon through a pc to my dac and stereo. I also prefer Apple Music to Amazon HD.
> Only thing I forgot to mention is as follows: the thing I do not like of AppleTV4K is that you have to have the tv screen on, even with beautiful screensavers it can be distractive and bring too much light. That is why I have installed as screensaver in my AppleTV4k a completely black picture. The tv screen is still on but is not as agressive.


I got an HDMI extractor so that the TV does not need to be on at all. Apple TV sends HDMI to the TV but then I have toslink going to my DAC and receiver.

Another option to the black screen is to choose "photos" as your screensaver and then connect homesharing on your PC (in iTunes). The wife and kids enjoy seeing all the family photos.


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## Nellie75 (Dec 11, 2021)

.


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## Nellie75 (Dec 11, 2021)

.


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## Nellie75

Is there a sound quality difference to playing music on your iPhone and airplaying it to an AppleTV or using the apple remote on your iPhone to control the Apple TV’s music app.  Or do they both do the same thing, essential run the app from the AppleTV?


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## Luis Mad

Nellie75 said:


> I got an HDMI extractor so that the TV does not need to be on at all. Apple TV sends HDMI to the TV but then I have toslink going to my DAC and receiver.


Thanks for that. I bought the HDMI extractor from Amazonbasics and it works wonderfully. Now I turn off the tv once I have taken control of the AppleTV with the Ipad.


----------



## Luis Mad

Nellie75 said:


> Is there a sound quality difference to playing music on your iPhone and airplaying it to an AppleTV or using the apple remote on your iPhone to control the Apple TV’s music app.  Or do they both do the same thing, essential run the app from the AppleTV?


I think it depends, for example the App Digital Concert Hall is in both the Ipad and the AppleTV, here the Ipad works just as a remote. There are other Apps like the Elbphilarmonie that are only in the Ipad and sound is sent from the Ipad to the Apple pTV wiith Airplay. That is how I understand it. Any other views?


----------



## Nellie75

Luis Mad said:


> I think it depends, for example the App Digital Concert Hall is in both the Ipad and the AppleTV, here the Ipad works just as a remote. There are other Apps like the Elbphilarmonie that are only in the Ipad and sound is sent from the Ipad to the Apple pTV wiith Airplay. That is how I understand it. Any other views?


Airplay is limited to CD quality, so I’ve assumed I get better quality not casting music to the AppleTv but rather controlling the AppleTV with the iPhone’s remote app.   This would be for Apple Music app playback (app is on both devices).  What’s not clear is whether the Apple Music app is actually running off the AppleTV in this example.  Airplay 2 has made it confusing on what device is the controller and which one, if any, are being controlled.


----------



## new2mus

Thanks for any help. Sorry, if I missed this somewhere (I tried looking for it and didn't see it). Is there any impact to sound quality hi-res lossless by using a usb c dock with  ipad pro out to dac? Specifically, I'm interested in using 2018 ipad pro 11 as source for Apple Music with a usb c dock attached so the ipad can charge via one port and send audio out via another port to dac.


----------



## Nellie75

new2mus said:


> Thanks for any help. Sorry, if I missed this somewhere (I tried looking for it and didn't see it). Is there any impact to sound quality hi-res lossless by using a usb c dock with  ipad pro out to dac? Specifically, I'm interested in using 2018 ipad pro 11 as source for Apple Music with a usb c dock attached so the ipad can charge via one port and send audio out via another port to dac.


Not sure what kind of Dock you got but if it’s basically like a standard lightning to the dac, it should be full hires.   It’s always nice to have a dac that reports the bit rate to eliminate any doubt.


----------



## new2mus

Nellie75 said:


> Not sure what kind of Dock you got but if it’s basically like a standard lightning to the dac, it should be full hires.   It’s always nice to have a dac that reports the bit rate to eliminate any doubt.


Thanks @Nellie75 I mean a simple usb c dock like this one: https://www.amazon.com/WALNEW-MacBo...ad+pro+usb+c+dock&qid=1639616392&sr=8-15&th=1


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## cinemakinoeye (Dec 15, 2021)

Nellie75 said:


> Not sure what kind of Dock you got but if it’s basically like a standard lightning to the dac, it should be full hires.   It’s always nice to have a dac that reports the bit rate to eliminate any doubt.


As I write this I am listening to Apple Music Lossless Downloads playing on an iPad mini connected to my DAC/Amp using the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter and it sounds great. I use this cable so I can power the iPad mini and connect to the DAC/Amp at the same time. Can’t confirm the bitrate, but it sounds great. In your case with USB-C you will need to connect to a a USB-C hub that has a power input if you want to connect to your DAC and power the iPad at the same time. And if you are using a DAC that requires USB power, then you certainly will need a powered USB-C hub.


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## Nellie75

This cable does the same thing as the Apple camera Adapter, in a much sleeker form factor. It doesn’t charge but I like it a lot better for portable listening.  Lightning to USB-C 




This lightning to 3.5” is also a fantastic dongle.  Beats my standard apple one by a long shot.  Apparently it has an amplify chip in it and at just $16 gives my Fiio KA3 DAC a run for its money.  It’s also made really well.  kBear Lightning to 3.5


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## Royaume

I am so happy to see the recent adoption of lossless audio streaming by all the major streaming services. Long have we waited! As someone who has cared about SQ for a number of years, I could never understand why this didn't happen sooner, given the relatively low bandwidth requirements compared to video.


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## new2mus

Nellie75 said:


> This cable does the same thing as the Apple camera Adapter, in a much sleeker form factor. It doesn’t charge but I like it a lot better for portable listening.  Lightning to USB-C
> 
> This lightning to 3.5” is also a fantastic dongle.  Beats my standard apple one by a long shot.  Apparently it has an amplify chip in it and at just $16 gives my Fiio KA3 DAC a run for its money.  It’s also made really well.  kBear Lightning to 3.5


Thank you.


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## new2mus

cinemakinoeye said:


> As I write this I am listening to Apple Music Lossless Downloads playing on an iPad mini connected to my DAC/Amp using the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter and it sounds great. I use this cable so I can power the iPad mini and connect to the DAC/Amp at the same time. Can’t confirm the bitrate, but it sounds great. In your case with USB-C you will need to connect to a a USB-C hub that has a power input if you want to connect to your DAC and power the iPad at the same time. And if you are using a DAC that requires USB power, then you certainly will need a powered USB-C hub.


I might just use https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter


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## cinemakinoeye

new2mus said:


> I might just use https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter


Pricy, but if you need the HDMI connection it looks like a good option. If you get it, let us know how it works out for you.


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## rlw6534

new2mus said:


> I might just use https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter



I'm using this one with my new iPad mini (USB-C).  It works just fine:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08KPD5S82/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## cinemakinoeye

rlw6534 said:


> I'm using this one with my new iPad mini (USB-C).  It works just fine:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08KPD5S82/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Does it work well without overheating while providing power to both DAC and tablet along with the data connection over extended periods of time?


----------



## rlw6534

cinemakinoeye said:


> Does it work well without overheating while providing power to both DAC and tablet along with the data connection over extended periods of time?



I have left it connected for days at a a time with no issues.  Which component would overheat?


----------



## new2mus

rlw6534 said:


> I have left it connected for days at a a time with no issues.  Which component would overheat?


This is very helpful, thank you. Some of the dongles overheat and/or don't perform well.


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## rlw6534 (Dec 16, 2021)

new2mus said:


> This is very helpful, thank you. Some of the dongles overheat and/or don't perform well.


Oh OK.  No, it never gets hot or even warm that I have noticed.  Obviously the DAC gets warm when playing, but that's normal regardless of the cable used.  The adapter also works on android devices with USB-C.  It's rated at 60W but I don't have anything above 20W to charge with (iPad Charger).  Note that the adapter looks almost exactly like the genuine USB 3 to lightning adapter I have (except USB-C of course).


----------



## iamoneagain

kumar402 said:


> Well I don’t think it’s a marketing gimmick. They are actually providing better product for same cost. Apple Music before Hi-res was 9.99 and with Hi-res it’s still the same. Even Tidal and Qobuz have reduced the charges.
> Better broadband connectivity, availability of hardware at lower cost have enabled larger population to consume hi-res audio and hence the service provider are now willing to provide it.


It’s possible Apple offered it for free to under cut Spotify. Apple could offer to do this at a loss. It ended up having Qobuz and Tidal adjust their rates too. Possibly caused Spotify to delay their lossless rollout, which some thought were going to charge extra for. It also seems Apple is pushing Dolby Atmos more since easy to tell the difference in any headphone. Whether it improves the music is subjective but it’s  sound quality is lossy.


----------



## Nellie75

I will say, I could not tell any difference to Apple’s 24bit/48khz and 24bit/192khz.  They both sounded excellent to me listening to the same track and flipping between them on my DAC.   My ears could not differentiate.  However, I could tell a noticeable difference to Amazon Music HD tracks played on my PC through the same DAC and Apple Music played on my Apple TV4K to the same DAC and the Amazon Music tracks was actually higher 24bit/192khz.  Although the Apple TV is limited to 48khz, there is something better about there sound compared to other streaming services.  The players could have also played a factor.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

Nellie75 said:


> My CD collection also has .wav extensions.  Somehow they sound much better than Spotify.  Yet, I can’t tell a difference to the same lossless files on Apple Music.  I switched to Apple Music because the sound quality is superior to what I was previously getting with Spotify and my Amazon Music HD trial.  I’m glad I made the switch.


If you ripped your CDs to bit-perfect files (WAV, uncompressed) then it's highly likely that when you compared them in a listening test to a streaming service, you were hearing the difference between lossless/uncompressed and lossy/compressed. 

Apple certainly knows how to market, but they also understand user experience in a way few other companies do (it's been in their corporate DNA since they were a start-up). When they say "lossless" they back it up with the experience of lossless audio indistinguishable from a file that was properly ripped from a CD. It's hard for anyone to offer anything that measurably and perceptibly sounds better than properly mastered Redbook (16/44.1 CD standard) audio files for music distribution (recording, editing, mixing, and mastering is a different ballgame where higher bit-depths and sampling rates do make a difference), so in order to sell any "higher resolution" formats, purveyors need to engage in persuasive marketing. 

I subscribe to Apple Music not because it sounds better than my Redbook audio collection, but because the interface and the seamless integration between devices make it a compelling value proposition for my personal use case.


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## iamoneagain (Dec 18, 2021)

cinemakinoeye said:


> If you ripped your CDs to bit-perfect files (WAV, uncompressed) then it's highly likely that when you compared them in a listening test to a streaming service, you were hearing the difference between lossless/uncompressed and lossy/compressed.
> 
> Apple certainly knows how to market, but they also understand user experience in a way few other companies do (it's been in their corporate DNA since they were a start-up). When they say "lossless" they back it up with the experience of lossless audio indistinguishable from a file that was properly ripped from a CD. It's hard for anyone to offer anything that measurably and perceptibly sounds better than properly mastered Redbook (16/44.1 CD standard) audio files for music distribution (recording, editing, mixing, and mastering is a different ballgame where higher bit-depths and sampling rates do make a difference), so in order to sell any "higher resolution" formats, purveyors need to engage in persuasive marketing.
> 
> I subscribe to Apple Music not because it sounds better than my Redbook audio collection, but because the interface and the seamless integration between devices make it a compelling value proposition for my personal use case.


I’m a big fan of Apple but this lossless rollout has not been seamless. You may believe you are getting lossless to all your devices but that is not the case. It has been shown that streaming from your iPhone or computer using Airplay to a Airplay 2 device is only receiving 256k aac lossy stream. In fact Mac’s latest software and recent update to Airport express have made them also steam at lossy quality. You will only get 44/16 lossless over Airplay if streaming to older device using original Airplay.

The best way to get lossless and hires is to  directly connect mobile device or computer to your dac. But this sort of defeats the idea of having a wireless connection for your home audio system.

But for the most part, no one will even realize it’s not lossless since the iPhone tells you it to playing at a higher level.

And the idea of lossy vs lossless sounding the same is for the average person on average equipment. Don’t think it’s been proven to sound exactly the same. I perceive a better soundstage and air with lossless vs lossy. Lossy can also have an etched sound to leading edges. But if don’t believe they sound different, why even bother reading about it. I at least want all the streaming services to be as good as technology from 25 years ago giving cd quality. Spotify is running out of time to keep their promises.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

iamoneagain said:


> I’m a big fan of Apple but this lossless rollout has not been seamless. You may believe you are getting lossless to all your devices but that is not the case [...]


What you say is true and I agree. 

I am aware that when I stream straight out of my Mac via USB to my DAC/Amp I'm getting a higher-quality stream than when I stream from a MacOS or iOS device to my Airport Express Gen 2 units around the house. That said, what is true, at least for my own use case, is that prior to the recent upgrades that added AirPlay 2 capabilities to my Airport Express Gen 2 units, it did not matter to me what the stream quality was, as it was unusable due to occasional dropouts. I assume that with the recent software updates Apple reduced the bitrate of the streams by moving from ALC (lossless) to AAC (lossy), and while this may reduce the quality of the stream, it has dramatically improved the usability. A year ago I mothballed all of my Airport Express Gen 2 units due to constant dropouts and was seeking a replacement solution. Thanks to the recent software updates, I now have a distributed audio system with Airport Express Gen 2 nodes all over the house with excellent sound quality and no dropouts. If the actual stream quality is lower, so be it. That is a small price to pay for an overall experience that adds Airplay 2 capabilities and eliminates dropouts and the restriction of streaming to only one device at a time from my tablet or phone. Every design decision comes with tradeoffs. So while the evolution of Airplay 2 and the introduction of Lossless audio has not been seamless, from where I stand, things are far better experience-wise than they were a year ago. The only time I am listening critically is when I'm using my Mac as the source. The rest of the time, I'm happy to have music in the kitchen, dining room, living room, etc. without annoying dropouts, and everyone in the household able to play DJ from their smartphone or tablet using Spotify or Apple Music as the source.


----------



## iamoneagain

cinemakinoeye said:


> What you say is true and I agree.
> 
> I am aware that when I stream straight out of my Mac via USB to my DAC/Amp I'm getting a higher-quality stream than when I stream from a MacOS or iOS device to my Airport Express Gen 2 units around the house. That said, what is true, at least for my own use case, is that prior to the recent upgrades that added AirPlay 2 capabilities to my Airport Express Gen 2 units, it did not matter to me what the stream quality was, as it was unusable due to occasional dropouts. I assume that with the recent software updates Apple reduced the bitrate of the streams by moving from ALC (lossless) to AAC (lossy), and while this may reduce the quality of the stream, it has dramatically improved the usability. A year ago I mothballed all of my Airport Express Gen 2 units due to constant dropouts and was seeking a replacement solution. Thanks to the recent software updates, I now have a distributed audio system with Airport Express Gen 2 nodes all over the house with excellent sound quality and no dropouts. If the actual stream quality is lower, so be it. That is a small price to pay for an overall experience that adds Airplay 2 capabilities and eliminates dropouts and the restriction of streaming to only one device at a time from my tablet or phone. Every design decision comes with tradeoffs. So while the evolution of Airplay 2 and the introduction of Lossless audio has not been seamless, from where I stand, things are far better experience-wise than they were a year ago. The only time I am listening critically is when I'm using my Mac as the source. The rest of the time, I'm happy to have music in the kitchen, dining room, living room, etc. without annoying dropouts, and everyone in the household able to play DJ from their smartphone or tablet using Spotify or Apple Music as the source.


The big difference in Airplay 2 is the buffering. They said original Airplay was streamed directly from your device with no buffering so that any network issue could cause problems. Airplay 2 fills up this s buffer and can handl small network issues. This should still be true if they switch to lossless as well. But if you were having an issue, then could change to lower quality if needed.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

iamoneagain said:


> The big difference in Airplay 2 is the buffering. They said original Airplay was streamed directly from your device with no buffering so that any network issue could cause problems. Airplay 2 fills up this s buffer and can handl small network issues. This should still be true if they switch to lossless as well. But if you were having an issue, then could change to lower quality if needed.


That is good to know. Hopefully, a future update will support lossless all around, all of the time and more people will be happy  I'm waiting for a device to replace my aging Airport Express (Gen 2) nodes (not impressed with the current Belkin offering), but so far, I'm getting a lot of mileage out of these, they have outlasted my expectations.


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## kumar402

Airplay supports till 24/48khz I guess so we can stream CD quality via Airplay which is lossless. Am I wrong ?


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## LaughMoreDaily (Dec 19, 2021)

cinemakinoeye said:


> There is no logical reason I can think of at the moment to rip an Audio CD into anything other than Red Book format (16-bit values sampled at 44.1 kHz sample rate).


How do you do that?  Thanks.


----------



## Soundizer

It turned off spatial because it is not LOSSLESS. When or if it is delivered LOSSLESS bit rates i will try again.


----------



## cinemakinoeye

cinemakinoeye said:


> There is no logical reason I can think of at the moment to rip an Audio CD into anything other than Red Book format (16-bit values sampled at 44.1 kHz sample rate).





LaughMoreDaily said:


> How do you do that?  Thanks.


I use dBpoweramp to rip CDs. It performs accurate rips and gives you a choice of audio encoders, including WAV (uncompressed), MP3, AAC, FLAC, ALAC, etc. It also supports ripping to multiple formats. To have dBpoweramp create uncompressed (PCM, 16/44.1 files) choose Uncompressed for the compression option, and then "as source" for bit-depth, sample rate, and channels. The WAV files will be bit-perfect copies of the CD audio files. They can be quite large, and there is no audible difference between these files and ALAC or FLAC, so those formats are also good to use and save on space compared to uncompressed files. There is a lot of discussion on this forum regarding the pros and cons of various formats, but the short of it is if you want a perfect copy, rip to an uncompressed format, otherwise, consider FLAC or ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec).



kumar402 said:


> Airplay supports till 24/48khz I guess so we can stream CD quality via Airplay which is lossless. Am I wrong ?


It's complicated and depends on the version of AirPlay, the source, and the target. This article: Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay (which I think was referred to earlier in this thread but right now I don't remember) outlines the specific details of which combinations of sources and destinations are lossless vs. lossy when using Airplay 1 and Airplay 2 and different sources and targets.


----------



## iamoneagain

cinemakinoeye said:


> It's complicated and depends on the version of AirPlay, the source, and the target. This article: Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay (which I think was referred to earlier in this thread but right now I don't remember) outlines the specific details of which combinations of sources and destinations are lossless vs. lossy when using Airplay 1 and Airplay 2 and different sources and targets.


Naim has posted about further updates to this, but for the worse. It used to that the Mac and PC streamed Apple Music at cd lossless quality over the original Airplay stream. In the current software versions it’s now lossy aac over Airplay 2 stream. And Airport Express recently got a Airplay 2 update, so it also receives lossy aac now. But if you still have an older device that only receives Airplay 1, then you  can get lossless cd quality. 

For most the advice is to use a direct connection. Others find hooking it to a 4k Apple TV provides good alternative but think that alway outputting at 48/24 so it’s not but perfect and being converted. 

Hopefully in a future update Apple can just flip the switch and deliver lossless of Airplay now matter what. Over even better and alway hires files too since it’s capable of that with a good home network.


----------



## gregorio

iamoneagain said:


> And the idea of lossy vs lossless sounding the same is for the average person on average equipment. Don’t think it’s been proven to sound exactly the same.



No, it's not "for the average person on average equipment", it's for any person on any equipment. Countless thousands of controlled tests have been done over the last 30 years or so by countless thousands of people, on equipment ranging from below average to laboratory, audiophile and top studio equipment. In fact, formal testing of high bit rate (320 and VBR256) lossy codecs effectively ended about a decade (or longer) ago because further testing was pointless, no one could tell a difference. Codecs are still formally tested of course but now it's just for the low bit rates, 128kbps and less. 



cinemakinoeye said:


> If you ripped your CDs to bit-perfect files (WAV, uncompressed) then it's highly likely that when you compared them in a listening test to a streaming service, you were hearing the difference between lossless/uncompressed and lossy/compressed.


I take it that's a typo, instead of "highly likely" you meant "extremely unlikely"? Obviously it's not "highly likely" that someone can hear something that no one else can. What is "highly likely" is that they're hearing something that's actually designed to be audibly differently, say a different master or loudness normalisation for example. And some bias effect is also far more "highly likely", as we are all subject to aural biases.

G


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## gregorio

Nellie75 said:


> So how low of a bit rate/lossy compression does it take for you to notice a sound quality difference to that of 24bit/192khz, pretty much the top tier offered by services today?


The top tier today is still 16/44.1. There are differences between 16/44.1 and 24/96 or 24/192 but they're inaudible, either too low in level, beyond the frequency range of human hearing or both.

Regardless though, it is possible to reliably detect a sound quality difference at 128kbps but not with all music. Trained listeners, with very good equipment struggle at around 170kbps or so. At 320 or VBR256 you're well beyond that point, with room to spare. 

A point to note: They continuously improved the codecs since they were introduced in the late 1980's. Early encoders did not rely on the more sophisticated psychoacoustic models that were developed after about a decade of controlled testing. So it is possible that say an MP3 320 encoded 20+ years ago might be differentiated.

G


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## iamoneagain (Dec 20, 2021)

Andrew_WOT said:


> Looks like someone just got lost and posting on the wrong forum.
> Can you please take this lossy vs lossless activism somewhere else to the more appropriate to this subject topic.
> Thank you


Thanks. There’s a separate audio science section for that. And if why waste time posting in lossless threads if were happy with lossy quality.

I personally can hear difference between Spotify and Qobuz on my Focal Utopia’s thru Naim HE. I’d may have stuck with Apple Music if lossless worked over Airplay 2. For most part lossy streaming suffers from sounding flat. Very little depth to the music.

The 15.3 beta is out now but I couldn’t get anyone to even confirm 15.2 was still lossy. I no longer have Apple Music membership, so not going to pay again until it’s actually lossless with Airplay 2.


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## iamoneagain

This thread should not be a debate about lossless in general. It specific to Apple Music lossless. Yes, you can bring in facts into these threads, but they can also be subjective. The audio science threads don’t allow opinions and is a better place to discuss the science of lossy files.

People are coming to this thread to figure out how to get lossless working properly, how the app compares to other services, that kind of thing. They don’t need some coming in and saying over and over you can’t hear the difference anyway. There are many that can hear the difference regardless of how many time you post they can’t. Go into a hires vs cd quality thread and see how you do there.


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## amarkabove

This argument is ignoring the two biggest factors in the entire debate: what/when/how to original recording was made and the fact that psychoacoustics are very much a very real and very important factor. I know personally I have on more than one occasion spent 20+ minutes adjusting EQ until I felt I got it jusssstttt right and everyone else in the room thought it sounded perfect, only to later realize I had been adjusting the EQ of a separate channel and hadn't actually adjusted anything. I've also had audience members go out of their way thanking me for the "adjustments" I made when they stopped by the desk at intermission when all I did was move a dummy fader. I also know I work in 48khz more often than not just to keep file size down and because no one can tell the difference in the room, even if I can certainly tell the difference on my studio monitors. 

If someone thinks Apple Lossless sounds better than lossy, then it does for them, much in the same way some people see a gold/white dress, and some people see a blue/black one.


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## Andrew_WOT (Dec 21, 2021)

I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
I am here only because I am looking for another *LOSSLESS *streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
Thank you


----------



## iamoneagain

Andrew_WOT said:


> I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
> Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
> I am here only because I am looking for another *LOSSLESS *streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
> Thank you


I’ll chime back in because I was unaware Amazon wasn’t bit perfect. Do you have any links about that? I didn’t like Amazon because the way the app is organized is bad. They don’t have the albums in order or broken out by album vs ep. They also mix and match albums track types with some hires and some cd. 

I like how Apple has theirs setup with even have complications broken out. They also have link to the album label. Scrolling lyrics works great on the phone. I think it has the slickest interface on the iPhone. Spotify is just functional easier and has more genre breakouts. 

The once Apple gets lossless worked out and Spotify get hifi, I’d probably go with Spotify just because I like how Spotify Connect works vs Airplay. Spotify Connect plays within the streamer and the mobile devices are just controllers. Airplay is streaming directly from the phone and you can’t hand it off. But in the end it will depend on which interface is the best.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

iamoneagain said:


> I’ll chime back in because I was unaware Amazon wasn’t bit perfect. Do you have any links about that?


You can pick up from here
Amazon added exclusive mode that prevents other apps from sharing audio stream and disables in app volume but did not provide direct bit-perfect path to the DAC throwing it at OS Mixer that does resampling to whatever you set in Control Panel (and not the best quality), clipping volume control, additional effects, etc.


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## iamoneagain

Andrew_WOT said:


> You can pick up from here
> Amazon added exclusive mode that prevents other apps from sharing audio stream and disables in app volume but did not provide direct bit-perfect path to the DAC throwing it at OS Mixer that does resampling to whatever you set in Control Panel (and not the best quality), clipping volume control, additional effects, etc.


Oh got it, using on the Mac. I would just be using from iPhone or iPad and streaming over Airplay. I believe that was lossless at cd quality. But as said, the interface isn’t the great, Apple Music is much better. 

And thanks for keeping this thread on track.


----------



## iamoneagain

So I decided to give Apple Music another try since they had 3 mo for one offer. Sadly I can tell the lossless issue has not been resolved. Regardless of what others are posting about lossy and lossless sounding the same, that’s not the case in my system. Playing 44/16 track from Qobuz thru roon vs Apple Music over Airplay 2, roon is the clear winner. There is more separation between instruments and vocals, more decay, air, depth, and dynamics. It’s not a huge difference but it’s adds up to make lossless version more a pleasure to listen to. I tried from iPhone with iOS 15.2 and iPad with beta 15.3 and same results.

Oh well, I guess I have to keep waiting for Spotify to come around. That’s looking more and more hopeless too. Maybe Qobuz will improve their library is my last hope.


----------



## amarkabove

iamoneagain said:


> So I decided to give Apple Music another try since they had 3 mo for one offer. Sadly I can tell the lossless issue has not been resolved. Regardless of what others are posting about lossy and lossless sounding the same, that’s not the case in my system. Playing 44/16 track from Qobuz thru roon vs Apple Music over Airplay 2, roon is the clear winner. There is more separation between instruments and vocals, more decay, air, depth, and dynamics. It’s not a huge difference but it’s adds up to make lossless version more a pleasure to listen to. I tried from iPhone with iOS 15.2 and iPad with beta 15.3 and same results.
> 
> Oh well, I guess I have to keep waiting for Spotify to come around. That’s looking more and more hopeless too. Maybe Qobuz will improve their library is my last hope.


Apologies if you’ve already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what is your set up that includes AirPlay 2. I know AirPlay only really supports up to 48k so do you think that’s where you’re noticing the difference?


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## Nellie75

Andrew_WOT said:


> I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
> Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
> I am here only because I am looking for another *LOSSLESS *streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
> Thank you


I had Amazon Music for two years.  I recently switched to Apple Music.  I like Apple Music better in every way.  The way music is organized and the UI is vastly improved.  The sound quality is a lot better as well.  I didn’t expect it to be as they are both hires.  Comparing the two, everything is the same except Amazon Music was played in exclusive mode from my laptop USB out to my Schiit Modi and Apple Music is played through Apple TV by optical to my Schiit Modi.

What settings do you set on Apple TV for the best audio?  I’ve recently gotten some crazy static chirping noises on some songs (no music at all, just static). I think these songs could be Dolby Atmos.


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## AxelCloris

We've removed a number of posts that were going off-topic, getting too far from the original spirit of the OP's post, or argumentative from the thread. Thank you for everyone who kept the conversation on-topic and for continuing any sound science discussions in the Sound Science forum. We greatly appreciate it. And now, back to Apple Music.


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## iamoneagain (Dec 23, 2021)

amarkabove said:


> Apologies if you’ve already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what is your set up that includes AirPlay 2. I know AirPlay only really supports up to 48k so do you think that’s where you’re noticing the difference?


I’ll reply to this since asked directly.

My setup is a Naim Uniti Atom HE, Focal Utopia with Danacable. It has Airplay 2, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect, Chromecast.

On the Naim forum, the tech posted screenshots showing the output of an iPhone, Mac, and pc, streaming to a Naim streamer. They all essential send a 256k aac Airplay 2 stream regardless of the Apple Music setting. Qobuz streamed at 44/16 lossless but nothing higher. On other forums, people have shown the same results to their Airplay 2 device. On older device with only Airplay 1, then it will receive 44/16 lossless. All very confusing and strange.

So when I was comparing roon/Qobuz vs Apple Music it was 44/16 lossless vs 256k aac. Regardless of what other say, I and others CAN hear the differences.


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## amarkabove

iamoneagain said:


> I’ll reply to this since asked directly.
> 
> My setup is a Naim Uniti Atom HE, Focal Utopia with Danacable. It has Airplay 2, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect, Chromecast.
> 
> ...


Very interesting on Apple’s part with the Airplay. I really wish they were more transparent about that and unlocked the Bluetooth in their devices to play with more codecs. 

It’s very apparent why there is an audible difference and will continue to be unless something changes with. AirPlay.


----------



## tmb821

So I just started using Apple Music. I’m finding that when I use iPhone and otg, my dac matches whatever output the song is. If I use Bluetooth I get 44.1. If I use android, tablet or old android phone and Apple Music , I get 192 on dac, bt or otg. Amazon music shows 192 no matter what I use, android or iOS. Just confirming that this is normal and I’m not missing anything.


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## Nellie75

Anyone know why some songs play with no sound?  For example, Jingle Bell Rovk by Hall & Oates. This is through Apple TV4K.  Works on my iPhone.  Ive had Apple Music for just a month and I never noticed it until I started playing some holiday music stations.  If I deselect “stereo” and choose “Auto” in AppleTV settings I get some nasty static.


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## dudeX

My review of Apple Lossless compared to Tidal and Apple Music AAC.
I've been a subscriber to Apple Music since I got the original HomePod, a subscriber to Tidal Premium (HiFi+ now) since last year.
First a brief review of HomePod with Apple Music. HomePod as a single speaker isn't bad, it plays music loudly with good bass, no distortion (as in bass bleed/bloom) and you can hear instrument separation. But otherwise it's a decent speaker for a mono speaker. As a stereo pair it does sound a lot better since it's stereo, but I haven't had a stereo pair in years so I can't say much more about it. As for Siri, it's terrible, but it works for my needs.

When Lossless came out for the HomePod a few months back, I tried a few songs to test it. And I have to say it does sound better in the treble and bass.  I felt that cymbals on AAC track felt muddy, and overall presentation can sound like a wall of sound as a mono speaker, but with Lossless it now reminds me of CD playback where each instrument sounds clear (for what the HomePod can resolve), bass is a little bit clearer. Midrange I can't tell a difference (since AAC is optimized for good midrange) but overall I am lot more satisfied listening to the HomePod with lossless than with AAC. Mind you, AAC is a pretty good format. I've enjoyed my iTunes collection for many years without feeling like I am losing a lot of detail on my IEMs, but on the HomePod, lossless just feels like my old CD players with speakers, but better.

Tidal using the Topping D90SE/A90 stack, using Drop 6xx, Drop HfM 5xx, and HD Poseidon. 
I've used Tidal on my 2019 MacBook Pro over the last year and I found that MQA sounds different from hi-res or CD masters of the same album. I was never amazed with it but it sounded ok. Using a program like Audirvana or the pi2aes Pi-Hat on Rpi4 did make the sound better for Tidal, but using Tidal by itself on a playlist that is mostly MQA wasn't that interesting when listening passively. Only when I used Audirvana or a pi-hat was I tapping my feet or rocking my body to the music.

When Apple Lossless came out, I did quick comparisons and I was amazed how much better Apple Lossless sounded compared to Tidal using exclusive mode, so I think there's a real problem with the Tidal software player.

Recently I got a HarmonicDyne Poseidon and have been listening to some songs on it. I've decided to listen to Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon on it the other day because that's an album I've been listening to since I was young teen which is roughly 30 years. Tidal recently updated DSotM to use MQA (192khz) instead of FLAC and I listened to the whole album at night. I found that Tidal master had quite a bit of soundstage for the instruments, especially for the choir in some songs, but the vocals sounded a bit thin. Separation of instruments was pretty decent, and overall it felt like listen to a fresh presentation of the CD.
Then I listen to the Hi-res version of DSotM on Apple Music lossless. It seems that Apple also has a new master as well, certified as an Apple Master (24 bit/96khz). I found that while it didn't have the soundstage of the Tidal master, vocals were a lot more richer, which made the songs that have choir singers (Brain Damage, Eclipse, etc) feel more impactful. Instruments had more presence, like the sax in some songs. I liked the Apple version a lot more.
Overall, the Apple Music master had the emphasis and emotion that I wanted compared to the more separate and analytical(?) Tidal master.

As for the UI of Apple Music vs Tidal, I like tidal more. Apple Music needs to make lossless outside of the iPhone/IPad/Music App and make it available via third parties so something like Roon/Audirvana/volumio can stream it but it's nice that Apple Music sounds good without locking the sound interface. Imagine how much better it can sound if it could...


----------



## Luis Mad

Apple Music 3.8.0 for Android is out. New function: search within playlists. You have to swipe down to find the search within a playlist. Very useful for me. I have some very long playlists downloaded in my Astell SR25, specially for the car.


----------



## Scarpad

Nellie75 said:


> I had Amazon Music for two years.  I recently switched to Apple Music.  I like Apple Music better in every way.  The way music is organized and the UI is vastly improved.  The sound quality is a lot better as well.  I didn’t expect it to be as they are both hires.  Comparing the two, everything is the same except Amazon Music was played in exclusive mode from my laptop USB out to my Schiit Modi and Apple Music is played through Apple TV by optical to my Schiit Modi.
> 
> What settings do you set on Apple TV for the best audio?  I’ve recently gotten some crazy static chirping noises on some songs (no music at all, just static). I think these songs could be Dolby Atmos.


it must be an older aplenty the current ones do not have an optical output


----------



## Nellie75

Scarpad said:


> it must be an older aplenty the current ones do not have an optical output


My Apple TV 4K is HDMI output only.  However, I use a HDMI extractor to optical converter.


----------



## StarFox132

dudeX said:


> My review of Apple Lossless compared to Tidal and Apple Music AAC.
> I've been a subscriber to Apple Music since I got the original HomePod, a subscriber to Tidal Premium (HiFi+ now) since last year.
> First a brief review of HomePod with Apple Music. HomePod as a single speaker isn't bad, it plays music loudly with good bass, no distortion (as in bass bleed/bloom) and you can hear instrument separation. But otherwise it's a decent speaker for a mono speaker. As a stereo pair it does sound a lot better since it's stereo, but I haven't had a stereo pair in years so I can't say much more about it. As for Siri, it's terrible, but it works for my needs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your review dudeX. I've come to some similar conclusions regarding ALAC.


----------



## dufferdan

All points of discussion here are well thought out and interesting. The key is what we can hear given the associated equipment. At home, with a decent DAC, USB connection and amp/speaker setup, maybe hi-res makes sense.
at the cabin, with a Russound whole home audio system, XStream streamer or BT streamer, 12” in ceiling speakers powering a room 20’x30’ x 25’ at the peak, Lossless is the least of my worries. But streaming 320 Kbps ALAC files via Airplay sounds pretty damn good, given the 12“ coax speakers have 18 foot dead air space to play with.

I think it is more the chain. If you are playing in a system highly enclosed and tight, yeah, the sound is highly influenced. If open, noisy and loose, the parameters for sounding good are wider. And equally pleasurable, as many have alluded to.


----------



## gregorio

dufferdan said:


> The key is what we can hear given the associated equipment. At home, with a decent DAC, USB connection and amp/speaker setup, maybe hi-res makes sense.



Given the best equipment and conditions, for example a top class commercial studio or laboratory conditions, and listening at reasonable levels, then no one can hear a difference. Thousands of controlled tests have been done, over more than 2 decades, involving pretty much every demographic, from mastering engineers to average members of the public, teenage students, professional musicians and of course audiophiles. The results are consistent and the is matter settled.

There are some valid uses for hi-res but only in the studio, more than 16bits when recording to provide extra headroom, higher sampling rates for sound design and/or when applying specific processes (such as pitch-shifting) for example but none of this is applicable to consumer playback.

Of course audiophile marketers like to misrepresent this fact and falsely state/imply it is applicable to playback (and is audible) because they can charge more for hi-res equipment and content.  To that end, it’s quite common for the standard res version/master to be doctored in some way (typically with additional audio compression) in order to create an actual audible difference with the hi-res version/master and justify a price difference. 



dufferdan said:


> If open, noisy and loose, the parameters for sounding good are wider.



I think I get what you’re trying to say. It’s been known (and applied) for many decades that different listening conditions require different “parameters”. When listening to music while driving, exercising, doing the chores, travelling, etc., there’s going to be a far higher environmental noise floor and if listening to masters with a high dynamic range, the quieter sections are going to be inaudible, so a smaller dynamic range (by applying audio compression) is preferable. In a good/better listening environment, when critically listening, the opposite is preferable. 

G


----------



## Nellie75

gregorio said:


> Given the best equipment and conditions, for example a top class commercial studio or laboratory conditions, and listening at reasonable levels, then no one can hear a difference. Thousands of controlled tests have been done, over more than 2 decades, involving pretty much every demographic, from mastering engineers to average members of the public, teenage students, professional musicians and of course audiophiles. The results are consistent and the is matter settled.
> 
> There are some valid uses for hi-res but only in the studio, more than 16bits when recording to provide extra headroom, higher sampling rates for sound design and/or when applying specific processes (such as pitch-shifting) for example but none of this is applicable to consumer playback.
> 
> ...


Take the hires “you can’t hear the difference” debate to a different thread.  Thanks.


----------



## dufferdan

Last week I also did a very rudimentary test of Apple Music hi-res (24/92) iPad via USB camera adapter to USB in on my older Beresford Caiman DAC . I compared to 16/44.1 rip of the same DSOTM tracks I had on my computer, streamed to my Squeezebox Touch, coax toslink to same Beresford DAC. I used my AKG 701 headphones out of my Cambridge receiver. I was surprised the CD rip version felt way more alive, more range, snap and pop. Dynamics were huge. The Apple Lossless version, lifeless, more compressed. So I think the different masters impact the relative experience.

One thing I haven’t controlled for is the older technology of the Caiman’s USB implementation. At the time the DAC was built, USB was the lowest quality input on any DAC. I have ordered a Topping D70S MQA which will be home when I get back tomorrow. I will re-run the same tracks to see what they sound like via a more modern USB implementation.


----------



## iamoneagain

I have that user blocked now but I wish what he was saying was true. I have Tidal, Apple Music and Spotify currently on trial. I prefer Apple and Spotify app on the iPhone over Tidal and roon. I like Apple’s interface the best just because it fits in with the rest of iPhone’s built in apps. 

Anyway I was testing the same 44.1/16 tracks from Tidal (thru roon) vs Apple Music (using Airplay 2 at 256k) and Spotify Connect (320 ogg) and Tidal sounds best followed by Apple and finally Spotify. It’s not big differences. Just less smearing with lossless so edges are clearer and more open sounding. I want Apple to sound the same because I would prefer use that as my main app. Tidal has too many MQA tracks and Qobuz library is lacking. Also, roon on iPhone is just ok as far as functionality. 

I’m still holding out hope that Apple will come out with a lossless wireless solution soon. I’ve sort of given up hope on Spotify at this point. Just the fact that reports of airpods getting lossless later this year gives me hope. Spotify hasn’t had any updates since last February.


----------



## gregorio

Nellie75 said:


> Take the hires “you can’t hear the difference” debate to a different thread.


There is no (rational) “debate”. 


dufferdan said:


> So I think the different masters impact the relative experience.


Which of course is entirely rational if you think about it. What would be the point of paying a mastering engineer to create a new master which sounds exactly the same as a master they’ve already paid for?


iamoneagain said:


> I have that user blocked now but I wish what he was saying was true.



You wish it were true that the same song/track in different formats sometimes sound different because they’ve been doctored/changed?

You seem to be saying the opposite: ”_I want Apple to sound the same because I would prefer use that as my main app_.” 

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT




----------



## kumar402

Any chance of Apple coming out with feature like Spotify connect for Apple Music ?


----------



## AxelCloris

Given that Apple Music can't seem to prevent my computer notifying me that I need to pause playback on my phone to resume on my computer _when there was no music playing on the computer_, I have doubts about their ability to pull off an Apple Connect.


----------



## kumar402

AxelCloris said:


> Given that Apple Music can't seem to prevent my computer notifying me that I need to pause playback on my phone to resume on my computer _when there was no music playing on the computer_, I have doubts about their ability to pull off an Apple Connect.


Well Apple Music has good catalogue of Indian regional language music but alas there is no way to stream it bit perfect and I don’t want to strangle my phone or iPad to USB duties. I just wish they come up with some solution


----------



## dufferdan

OK so stage two. Topping D70S MQA arrived on the weekend. Set it up tonight, pulling the Beresford Caiman.

My 5 disk Rotel CD player has RCA out to Cambridge 640 integrated amp, and Coax digital audio out to the Topping.

Squeezebox Touch Toslink Audio out to Topping

iPad Air 2 via card reader/camera adapter out to USB. While the Camera adapter I have will take a lightning in for power, I did not hook this up for this test. 

I set up the Topping as RCA out only, Filter 3. Everything else was essentially default I think

Listening was with AKG 704 headphones via the headphone out on the Cambridge 640. 

Test 1. CD player RCA out to receiver vs coax digital audio out to Topping and into amp via RCS. Zero difference whatsoever. The switching between the two inputs was virtually silent. Without the click of the switch, I thought it had been stuck on one of the inputs. Levels perfectly matched and details/punch/range identical. I can test later with more exacting CD recording, but I was frankly surprised. CD wasn’t necessarily the cleanest most technical recording, Bruce Springsteens 4 disk Songs collection. Forget the exact title. 

Test 2. Squeezebox Touch, Ethernet connection to iMac storing files on external USB 2.0 12TB drive. IPad Air 2 via the lightning to USB connector to USB in. The Touch was pulling Doors LA WOman I had ripped from DVD Audio, 24/88.2. The iPad, Apple Music, hi res copy of same record. That source was 24/96. After listening, I was positive they were the same masters. I teed up LA WOman, synched the start and started to flip between USB and Opt inputs. Virtually indistinguishable To my ear. The USB feed may have been ever ever so very slightly less loud, but the dynamics, detail, punch, everything sounded the same. Riders on the storm, the rain in the intro, no difference. Snap of the thunderclaps, and then the organ starting to come in and crescendo. Spectacular. And the Topping showed the bitrates on all sources, which was nice. Never had that before. 

Once the Aussi open is done I’ll have more time to keep testing. Try different headphones. My speakers are little Royd Minstrels c. 1997. A nice little speaker, but I may see if I can sneak some PMC Fact 2.somethings in the door. That will take some time. In the meantime, the DROP 789 THX balanced headphone amp arrived. Will likely order a Bifrost 2 and Magnius Balanced headphone amp for the computer system with my Valhalla 2 tube amp….compare tube with sterile. The 789 may end up in the main system for headphones. 

So far, no post purchase cognitive dissonance.


----------



## dufferdan

More digging. 
More rathole. More Beatles.

Comparing Apple 24/96 2019 remastering of Abbey Road vs my 16/44.1 2009 remastered CD lossless rip to ALAC. The iPad is input into the USB of the DAC. The newer remastering is a snuck quieter so I had to level match with my Squeezebox, set it at 92%, which was close. The 2009 remasters definitely more snap. First song. Come together. There are cymbals near the end of Come Together that are quiet but present on the CD but completely absent on the 2019 hi-res. I was astonished.

Not sure who did the 2019 remastering, but now listening straight through to I Want You, IMO, the 2009 16/44.1 remaster is totally superior to the Apple 24/96 2019 remaster to my tinnitus infected ears. Would love hear impressions from others.

So now comparing basically the same masters: Let It Be Naked. From 2003. The Apple Music version is 16/44.1. As is the CD ALAC lossless rip. Level matched they are virtually identical. 

Now I have a concern with my brand new Topping DAC. The Topping USB input fails after 5-8 minutes. Has happened five times tonight. Just goes silent. While I have been switching to the optical and back a lot to compare sources, I don’t see why this would be an issue.  Annoying as heck. And inexcusable for a brand new item. Not the right thread, but anyone have any ideas?


----------



## kumar402

dufferdan said:


> More digging.
> More rathole. More Beatles.
> 
> Comparing Apple 24/96 2019 remastering of Abbey Road vs my 16/44.1 2009 remastered CD lossless rip to ALAC. The iPad is input into the USB of the DAC. The newer remastering is a snuck quieter so I had to level match with my Squeezebox, set it at 92%, which was close. The 2009 remasters definitely more snap. First song. Come together. There are cymbals near the end of Come Together that are quiet but present on the CD but completely absent on the 2019 hi-res. I was astonished.
> ...


May be your laptop is going to sleep and USB connection drops off? Does it happen when the song gets over and new one is about to play? Keep laptop screen on and check if the USB still drops


----------



## dufferdan

Running Apple Lossless via my iPad Touch 2. I think I figured the issue out. The Lightning camera connector/card reader connector coming out of the iPad was set up sideways. The weight of the camera connector and lightning connector pulling down, as the iPad warmed up, may have resulted in the lightning connection to iPad slipping a bit and losing connection. 

That is an easy test, will try tonight as I think my return limit is 15 days.


----------



## dufferdan

OK. Happened again. After about 15 minutes. Still registering nitrate but no sound. Unplug and plug in lightning to iPad got it back. This could be a problem any other experiences here?


----------



## new2mus

I've had issues with the lightning connector in the past for data transfers and restarting iphone when connecting to a device. Had to replace a couple and third new one was good. I wasn't using it in this context but always worth a try to try a different adapter to see if that is the issue.


----------



## PetZoundz

dufferdan said:


> More digging.
> More rathole. More Beatles.
> 
> Comparing Apple 24/96 2019 remastering of Abbey Road vs my 16/44.1 2009 remastered CD lossless rip to ALAC. The iPad is input into the USB of the DAC. The newer remastering is a snuck quieter so I had to level match with my Squeezebox, set it at 92%, which was close. The 2009 remasters definitely more snap. First song. Come together. There are cymbals near the end of Come Together that are quiet but present on the CD but completely absent on the 2019 hi-res. I was astonished.
> ...


The 2009 edition of Abbey Road was a remaster, the 2019 was a remix. Comparing apples and oranges, basically.


----------



## dufferdan

I get that totally. It was more that, obviously depending on your view of which is better, the 2019 remix in hi-res sounded worse to my ears than the 2009 16/44.1 rip I did in plain old lossless. So just because it is hi res doesn’t necessarily mean it is a better reproduction of the music. To my ears, the lossless sounded punchier, more forceful, more detailed than the hi res file. That’s all.


----------



## gregorio

dufferdan said:


> So just because it is hi res doesn’t necessarily mean it is a better reproduction of the music.



As the difference between 16/44 and higher sample rates/bit depths is inaudible, it’s always going to come down to either preferences between different masters or bias/placebo.

G


----------



## .Sup

Can anyone explain to me what Dolby Atmos on Apple music does? I take you have to have supported hardware or does it do some kind of virtualisation. I know the basics of the protocol as I have Sonos Beam gen. 2 that supports Atmos but I don't intend to listen to music on a soundbar.


----------



## waxler

.Sup said:


> Can anyone explain to me what Dolby Atmos on Apple music does? I take you have to have supported hardware or does it do some kind of virtualisation. I know the basics of the protocol as I have Sonos Beam gen. 2 that supports Atmos but I don't intend to listen to music on a soundbar.


I believe it creates a virtual surround sound. It's not real surround sound, just some programming to trick your brains. It's kind of cool if you actively look for the difference, but by the end of the day, totally forgettable. My 2 cents.


----------



## PreeminentPeace

Giving this the old trial run... So far I'm highly impressed. May be a tidal replacement for me. Time will tell.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Any rumors if lossless coming to PC and Android?


----------



## PreeminentPeace

Andrew_WOT said:


> Any rumors if lossless coming to PC and Android?


Lossless is already available on Android through the app on google play store. I don't think they plan on ever bringing it over to the pc though sadly.


----------



## imackler

PreeminentPeace said:


> Lossless is already available on Android through the app on google play store. I don't think they plan on ever bringing it over to the pc though sadly.


Yeah, but Android (on most phones) will upsample it.


----------



## PreeminentPeace

imackler said:


> Yeah, but Android (on most phones) will upsample it.


I actually hadn't thought of that. Wonder if there is a list somewhere of what android may not upsample and keep it a direct signal line to the lossless track.


----------



## ST33L

My iMac is a few years old. I followed an on-line tutorial to enable lossless, but it isn’t available under my Apple Preference. Evidently older IMacs do not have supported hardware. Perhaps the M1 chip is required. Anyone have any insight on this matter?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

imackler said:


> Yeah, but Android (on most phones) will upsample it.


Not with UAPP.


----------



## dudeX

ST33L said:


> My iMac is a few years old. I followed an on-line tutorial to enable lossless, but it isn’t available under my Apple Preference. Evidently older IMacs do not have supported hardware. Perhaps the M1 chip is required. Anyone have any insight on this matter?


Are you on Catalina?


----------



## imackler

Andrew_WOT said:


> Not with UAPP.


Apple Music works on UAPP?!


----------



## Andrew_WOT

imackler said:


> Apple Music works on UAPP?!


Tidal and Qobuz do, probably not Apple, never tried it.


----------



## Ab10

Apple must offer the similar external DAC detection feature like Tidal native Android app (only detect MQA enable DAC) - but I highly doubt Apple will ever implement this feature for Android, Instead they likely sale their own hardware (iDevice).

Same goes for UAPP - Apple will never support this app as fork.


----------



## rlw6534

ST33L said:


> My iMac is a few years old. I followed an on-line tutorial to enable lossless, but it isn’t available under my Apple Preference. Evidently older IMacs do not have supported hardware. Perhaps the M1 chip is required. Anyone have any insight on this matter?



The built-in Audio Midi Setup app will tell you what audio your Mac supports, for my MacBook Pro (non M1) it goes up to 32/96.


----------



## rlw6534

imackler said:


> Yeah, but Android (on most phones) will upsample it.



Depends on the device.  Most recent Android DAPs work correctly with Apple Music without resampling.


----------



## innocentblood

rlw6534 said:


> Depends on the device.  Most recent Android DAPs work correctly with Apple Music without resampling.


Yes an example would be AK SP2000.


----------



## jmtocali

Nvidia Shield also pass bit perfect audio for Apple Music over HDMI


----------



## Luis Mad

innocentblood said:


> Yes an example would be AK SP2000.


Also AK SR25 delivering bit perfect Apple Music hires in the digital out up to 24/192


----------



## gregorio

What difference does it make when all the recordings you listen to have already been resampled, often multiple times and it's going to be resampled by pretty much every DAC any way?

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Android devices with decent internal DAC (most DAPs, LG V30, etc) can do bit perfect. The problem is getting it bit perfect to external DAC, USB without UAPP is resampled to 24/48, BT LDAC 990 can do 16/44.1 lossless (oversampled to 24/96 by default) but starts compressing at bitrate higher than that.


----------



## gregorio

Andrew_WOT said:


> Android devices with decent internal DAC (most DAPs, LG V30, etc) can do bit perfect.


No, they re-sample, including the LG V30.

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT

gregorio said:


> No, they re-sample, including the LG V30.
> 
> G


To internal DAC when Hi-Fi DAC is activated? I don't think so.


----------



## rlw6534 (Feb 15, 2022)

Andrew_WOT said:


> To internal DAC when Hi-Fi DAC is activated? I don't think so.



I have multiple Android DAPs that play Apple Music at the correct sample rates, with no resampling.  This does assume the bitrate indicators on the DAPs are accurate - I have no reason to think they aren't.


----------



## gregorio

Andrew_WOT said:


> To internal DAC when Hi-Fi DAC is activated? I don't think so.


Yes, the internal DAC re-samples, as do almost all DACs. 

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT

I have found something interesting that might explain this resampling.
Seems like it skips resampling only if bit depth is 24 bit, if it's 16/44.1 it resamples to 48Khz.
UAPP and Neuron goes around this by padding 16 bit to 24 bit.
Seems like with high-res it should go through bit-perfect, and this is what I've seen playing high res Amazon files when it's player shows device capability and as which bitrate it plays.
This is LG30 though, DAPs might use own internal medial player that does the same padding.


----------



## gregorio

The DAC itself re-samples.

G


----------



## rlw6534

gregorio said:


> The DAC itself re-samples.
> 
> G



I'm not sure what your point is here.  Surely you aren't saying that a 24/192 track resampled to 24/48 is the same thing.   Yes, DACs oversample and change modulation schemes internally, but it's not comparable to software resampling prior to the DAC where information is clearly lost in the process.


----------



## gregorio

rlw6534 said:


> Surely you aren't saying that a 24/192 track resampled to 24/48 is the same thing. Yes, DACs oversample and change modulation schemes internally, but it's not comparable to software resampling prior to the DAC where information is clearly lost in the process.


What audible “_information is clearly lost in the process_”?

Information is clearly lost during the mixing, and again during the mastering process. It’s likewise not audible information though. 

G


----------



## rlw6534

gregorio said:


> What audible “_information is clearly lost in the process_”?
> 
> Information is clearly lost during the mixing, and again during the mastering process. It’s likewise not audible information though.
> 
> G



Ah, I see that you don't believe in hi-res music, so I'm certainly not going to change your mind...  I like to think that it adds some value, however small, or it wouldn't exist.


----------



## gregorio

rlw6534 said:


> Ah, I see that you don't believe in hi-res music, so I'm certainly not going to change your mind...


I do believe in hi-res music but I don’t believe that inaudible information has any value. 


rlw6534 said:


> I like to think that it adds some value, however small, or it wouldn't exist.


You’re of course free to believe that inaudible information “_adds some value_”.   I just don’t understand what that value could be, especially as it occurs multiple times during the creation process any way and during the DAC reconstruction process. 

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT

https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Resampling


> Low-quality resampling algorithms, whether upsampling or downsampling, can introduce artifacts which are clearly audible in the resampled audio file.


You can also check this discussion here and even audition artifacts by playing attached to the post there 10 kHz to 20 kHz sweep.


----------



## gregorio

Andrew_WOT said:


> https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Resampling
> Low-quality resampling algorithms, whether upsampling or downsampling, can introduce artifacts which are clearly audible in the resampled audio file.


Sure, in about 2006 when it appears the article was written! However, it also states this: "_Modern PC processors (~2 GHz clock) can easily deal with very high-quality resampling in real time._" - So, if a 2002 Pentium 4 can easily deal with very high quality resampling, how easy do you think it is for a current mobile processor with probably about 50 times the processing power, along with more efficient modern algorithms?


Andrew_WOT said:


> You can also check this discussion here and even audition artifacts by playing attached to the post there 10 kHz to 20 kHz sweep.


Again, sure, Windows 10 had notoriously terrible SRC, it's relative though because even with this terrible SRC, the artefacts are still inaudible! The one poster who reported something audible (with attached examples) appears to be due to a specific fault or incorrect setting between Win 10, REW and Audacity. We don't know if the suggested fix solved the problem because the poster never responded.

G


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Try it yourself. 
In audio player set output to Direct Sound so it goes through OS Mixer.
Set Sound format in control panel to 48Khz and play 44.1 file, you will hear "sirens", set output to 44.1 and play 48khz file, and you will hear the same.
It has always been a problem with bit-imperfect.
Switch to WASAPI exclusive or ASIO and both will play fine regardless of control panel audio format settings (bit-perfect).


----------



## gregorio

Andrew_WOT said:


> Try it yourself.
> In audio player set output to Direct Sound so it goes through OS Mixer.
> Set Sound format in control panel to 48Khz and play 44.1 file, you will hear "sirens", set output to 44.1 and play 48khz file, and you will hear the same.


I have tried it myself, without issue, nothing like the example files to which you linked. There certainly can/could be an issue with Win 10, though not because of DS's sample rate conversion but it's built-in limiter. This is easily avoided by simply reducing the player's volume by a percent or two. (See the posts by bennetng here.)

Besides, the LG V30 doesn't use Win 10 does it?

G


----------



## KutuzovGambit

If you want automatic bit-perfect playback on Apple Music on macOS, check out this app: https://github.com/vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher/releases/tag/1.0.0

Only issue I've found is that it only changes bitrate not depth.


----------



## Lvivske

I'm having some issues with it at the moment. Conflicting with my EQ so every track or start of playing will skip 3-4 times. I also found sometimes it didnt change

no luck with ripped lossless files, only picks up on the meta tag from Apple Music lossless streams

overall though its what weve been begging for


----------



## Failed Engineer

Does it work on M1 Macs?


----------



## Lvivske

Yeah finding it doesn't really work as intended. I tried this 96k album and it switched from 44 to 48. As I was typing this, it changed to 96. I then skipped to the next track (which is also 96k) and the app changed my output back to 48k (and now its back to 96k after 30 seconds of being wrong).

So...bugs....


----------



## Figjam

Lvivske said:


> Yeah finding it doesn't really work as intended. I tried this 96k album and it switched from 44 to 48. As I was typing this, it changed to 96. I then skipped to the next track (which is also 96k) and the app changed my output back to 48k (and now its back to 96k after 30 seconds of being wrong).
> 
> So...bugs....


Yep, getting the same thing.


----------



## Lvivske

im using the comments on github to help, he put out a new beta so hopefully this eventually gets sorted

found that 96k goes to 48k but 192k works fine, albeit everything has a 1 second skip in it as its checking, which hopefully eventually gets resolved


----------



## Figjam

Lvivske said:


> im using the comments on github to help, he put out a new beta so hopefully this eventually gets sorted
> 
> found that 96k goes to 48k but 192k works fine, albeit everything has a 1 second skip in it as its checking, which hopefully eventually gets resolved


192k always revolves to 48k for me on my M1 Mac.


----------



## Lvivske

Figjam said:


> 192k always revolves to 48k for me on my M1 Mac.



on the beta, or standard?


----------



## FatihEnes

Lvivske said:


> Yeah finding it doesn't really work as intended. I tried this 96k album and it switched from 44 to 48. As I was typing this, it changed to 96. I then skipped to the next track (which is also 96k) and the app changed my output back to 48k (and now its back to 96k after 30 seconds of being wrong).
> 
> So...bugs....



The numbers doesn't change so fast in the menu bar, but my external DAC switches the sample rate immediately.


----------



## FooFighter

FatihEnes said:


> The numbers doesn't change so fast in the menu bar, but my external DAC switches the sample rate immediately.


So that means the bit rate change is effectively working and is applied to the DAC but just not correctly displayed in the app?


----------



## Figjam

Lvivske said:


> on the beta, or standard?


Standard


----------



## jabz10 (May 13, 2022)

I use Apple Music lossless with my Mac and iPhone using the FiiO BTR5, with the USB-c cable for Mac, and with their LT-LT1 USB type-c to Lightning data cable with iPhone and my Beyerdynamic T5 3rd gen.  Sounds great to me.
Would I get any upgrade if I switch to using a DAP that supports Apple Music lossless?  Like the FiiO M11 Plus?


----------



## Herman

I think you will. After having been using Apple Music lossless on iPhone and Mac I was pleasantly surprised that it sounds even better on Fiio M11 Plus ESS. Not to mention that the Fiio supports APTX and the iPhone does not.


----------



## FooFighter (May 16, 2022)

jabz10 said:


> I use Apple Music lossless with my Mac and iPhone using the FiiO BTR5, with the USB-c cable for Mac, and with their LT-LT1 USB type-c to Lightning data cable with iPhone and my Beyerdynamic T5 3rd gen.  Sounds great to me.
> Would I get any upgrade if I switch to using a DAP that supports Apple Music lossless?  Like the FiiO M11 Plus?


The question is how mobile you want to be.
24/96 is I think the highest sample rate you can find in Apple Music and almost all DAPs / DACs should be supporting that rate nowadays.
Of course your headphones should scale with better gear and it's up to your purse how far you want to go.
There are fabulous DAPs meanwhile catching up with desktop gear like FIIO M17 and DX300 Max or Cayin N8 II but if you don't need portability you can drive your headphones best with desktop gear price performance wise, whereas the ratio is gravitating to desktop gear with more demanding headphones


----------



## Figjam

jabz10 said:


> Would I get any upgrade if I switch to using a DAP that supports Apple Music lossless?


Definitely. I hear a big difference between using my Mac or iPhone and my A&K Kann Alpha.


----------



## padawan25

FooFighter said:


> The question is how mobile you want to be.
> 24/96 is I think the highest sample rate you can find in Apple Music and almost all DAPs / DACs should be supporting that rate nowadays.
> Of course your headphones should scale with better gear and it's up to your purse how far you want to go.
> There are fabulous DAPs meanwhile catching up with desktop gear like FIIO M17 and DX300 Max or Cayin N8 II but if you don't need portability you can drive your headphones best with desktop gear price performance wise, whereas the ratio is gravitating to desktop gear with more demanding headphones



Apple has many 24/192 tracks.  My favourite album , Pink Floyd Pulse is 24/192 in its entirety


----------



## FooFighter

padawan25 said:


> Apple has many 24/192 tracks.  My favourite album , Pink Floyd Pulse is 24/192 in its entirety


Doesn't change the fact that the phones scale wurh better gear and almost all DACs can do 24/192 too


----------



## padawan25

FooFighter said:


> Doesn't change the fact that the phones scale wurh better gear and almost all DACs can do 24/192 too



I agree……just pointing out that Apple Music offers tracks with a higher sample rate than the 24/96


----------



## rlw6534

jabz10 said:


> I use Apple Music lossless with my Mac and iPhone using the FiiO BTR5, with the USB-c cable for Mac, and with their LT-LT1 USB type-c to Lightning data cable with iPhone and my Beyerdynamic T5 3rd gen.  Sounds great to me.
> Would I get any upgrade if I switch to using a DAP that supports Apple Music lossless?  Like the FiiO M11 Plus?



I guess I'm in the minority here, but the BTR5 should drive your phones just fine, especially in balanced mode.  I would not expect much sound quality difference from a DAP when compared with USB DAC mode from the BTR5.   And yes, I have and use both a BTR5 and an M11 Plus ESS.


----------



## efftee

Absolutely befuddled. Why do some tracks play on other iOS devices -- iPhone, iPad, but NOT on an iPod? Restarted, logged out and back in, even updated to 15.5. Still wouldn't play some tracks that play perfectly on other devices. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks ahead.


----------



## padawan25

efftee said:


> Absolutely befuddled. Why do some tracks play on other iOS devices -- iPhone, iPad, but NOT on an iPod? Restarted, logged out and back in, even updated to 15.5. Still wouldn't play some tracks that play perfectly on other devices. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks ahead.



Do the tracks that don’t play on the iPod have a high sample rate ?


----------



## efftee

padawan25 said:


> Do the tracks that don’t play on the iPod have a high sample rate ?


No, and they have been playing in the past, just decided to stop playing recently. And the same tracks are still playing on other devices.


----------



## 529128

I am not an Apple Music subscriber. I have recently started ripping the cds in my collection I am not able to find on Qobuz. For convenience I have imported them as ALAC to iTunes. Will I be able to listen to these files lossless via the Music app on my iPhone or are they converted to AAC when they are transferred to the iPhone from iTunes? I have read somewhere that I need a subscription to be able to listen to lossless files in the Music app on the iPhone.


----------



## mynamesjeff

Any announcements at WWDC regarding possible exclusive mode for Mac OS?


----------



## Lvivske

mynamesjeff said:


> Any announcements at WWDC regarding possible exclusive mode for Mac OS?



nothing music related announced


----------



## Neweymatt

Lvivske said:


> nothing music related announced


One thing music related announced, at least as relates to the new M2 based MBA & MBP:

”3.5 mm headphone jack with advanced support for high-impedance headphones”

Pure Applespeak, like what does “advanced support” mean? Truth will be in the listening I suppose..

Anyway, it’s encouraging to see Apple not forgetting that wired headphones actually exist, and doing something (maybe?) to improve the experience on their laptops.


----------



## FatihEnes

Nothing knew about Apple Music on WWDC, but at least, they added sorting options for songs in playlists with iOS 🙏🏽


----------



## Luis Mad

Apple Music 3.10 Android is out. No news of the Apple Music special classical branch yet.


----------



## Lvivske

Luis Mad said:


> Apple Music 3.10 Android is out. No news of the Apple Music special classical branch yet.



dont notice any changes tbh

though it did say i now had a 'music alarm timer' but when i went into the android clock app Music wasnt an option for alarm clocks so no clue


----------



## Surf Monkey

Apple Music has a lot going for it but it’s deeply flawed on both platforms. 

For example, try searching for soundtracks and original scores. Good luck. You’ll get what’s popular right now and very little else. And that’s just one small example of the feeble, broken nature of Apple’s music search on mobile devices. 

Then there’s play-counts. If you’ve been an iTunes user for ages (like me) you’ve no doubt got a bunch of play-count dependent smart lists. Even if you don’t you may use Apple’s built in “recently played” feature. All of these lists require real-time play-count (and library content) updates across all platforms where a user has an Apple Music account active. But play-counts (and library contents) don’t update in real time. They MAYBE update once a day or so, if they do at all. 

Another big issue is finding hi-res files. There’s no specific section for them so you’re left fishing around and or sorting though Apple’s pre-loaded lists, which are generally limited in scope. 

These are a few of the more visible issues with Apple Music. The absolute crap-show that is Classical on Apple Music is another issue but at least Apple seems to be trying to address it.


----------



## Edyeded86

Surf Monkey said:


> Apple Music has a lot going for it but it’s deeply flawed on both platforms.
> 
> For example, try searching for soundtracks and original scores. Good luck. You’ll get what’s popular right now and very little else. And that’s just one small example of the feeble, broken nature of Apple’s music search on mobile devices.
> 
> ...


Agree with this.

For me, the biggest frustration with Apple, is when using MacBook - it wont auto sample to the correct sampling rate. Have to use Audio Midi to change it..Not sure if it makes a whole lot of difference, but it's really frustrating!


----------



## slick1ru2

So,  been using on y iPad and decided to get a DAC. Got the Hiby FC3 from amazon but waiting for the cable to arrive from China. So I tried it out on my Galaxy A32 5g with the Apple Music app set to Hi-Rez and it only plays at PCM 32-48kHz. Anyone know a fix?


----------



## Surf Monkey

slick1ru2 said:


> So,  been using on y iPad and decided to get a DAC. Got the Hiby FC3 from amazon but waiting for the cable to arrive from China. So I tried it out on my Galaxy A32 5g with the Apple Music app set to Hi-Rez and it only plays at PCM 32-48kHz. Anyone know a fix?



This cable works well for me with the FC3. 

https://a.co/d/gj2MJMb

You can probably get it to your doorstep faster than the one coming from China and it can’t hurt to have more than one.

I don’t know how to resolve the bit-rate with your Galaxy. Maybe someone has had similar issues?


----------



## vthee

Is the only way to play Apple Music lossless on a PC is to install the Android app in Windows?


----------



## Lvivske

vthee said:


> Is the only way to play Apple Music lossless on a PC is to install the Android app in Windows?



Ye.


----------



## Nellie75

Do any of you get a pop/stutter when first playing a song?  Only happens the first time but it’s consistent and across all my devices.


----------



## PHLHarmonic

Nellie75 said:


> Do any of you get a pop/stutter when first playing a song?  Only happens the first time but it’s consistent and across all my devices.



I often have a momentary (quarter second or less) speed-up of the track at the 2-3 second mark when starting songs on the Mac. I have no idea what causes it. I don't think I've noticed it on the iPhone.


----------



## Surf Monkey

Nellie75 said:


> Do any of you get a pop/stutter when first playing a song?  Only happens the first time but it’s consistent and across all my devices.



Yes, it happens on my iPhone, usually only on the first track of an album. If I skip back and start over it doesn’t happen. It’s a weird and internment bug that doesn’t show consistent behavior.


----------



## Edyeded86

slick1ru2 said:


> So,  been using on y iPad and decided to get a DAC. Got the Hiby FC3 from amazon but waiting for the cable to arrive from China. So I tried it out on my Galaxy A32 5g with the Apple Music app set to Hi-Rez and it only plays at PCM 32-48kHz. Anyone know a fix?


I may be wrong in saything this but I think the only way to play bit perfect stuff on android phones is by using USB audio player Pro app.


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## Andrew_WOT (Jun 18, 2022)

Edyeded86 said:


> I may be wrong in saything this but I think the only way to play bit perfect stuff on android phones is by using USB audio player Pro app.


No, you are not wrong, it's the only way for USB DACs. Some phones like LG V30 allow wired phones to get bit perfect through internal Hi-Fi DAC, you need to turn on this option.


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## Surf Monkey

Andrew_WOT said:


> No, you are not wrong, it's the only way for USB DACs. Some phones like LG V30 allow wired phones to get bit perfect through internal Hi-Fi DAC, you need to turn on this option.



This is a long standing and frustrating “feature” of Android. HiBy was able to bypass the down-sample and get a bit perfect output out of their Android based R6 2020 and that’s the exact reason I bought one.


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## slick1ru2

Edyeded86 said:


> I may be wrong in saything this but I think the only way to play bit perfect stuff on android phones is by using USB audio player Pro app.



Well luckily I got it to work with my iPad which is what  I really wantEd anyway. So everything is good.


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## Edyeded86 (Jul 9, 2022)

Hey all, does anyone else find that Apple Music (Hi-Res) doesn’t always sample at the correct bit rates. I’ve been using my chord mojo 2 and listening to music on apple Music and have found that the mojo sample colour is not matching the bit-rate specified on the album details. In some cases, where it should be 192 (blue on mojo), it samples at 96 (green on mojo). I thought it might be the Mojo 2, but i tested on Quobuz and everything works fine? I had the same issue when listening on my iPad too? Anyone have any idea why this happens? P.s. It sounds noticeably better on Quobuz!


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## slick1ru2

Edyeded86 said:


> Hey all, does anyone else find that Apple Music (Hi-Res) doesn’t always sample at the correct bit rates. I’ve been using my chord mojo 2 and listening to music on apple Music and have found that the mojo sample colour is not matching the bit-rate specified on the album details. In some cases, where it should be 192 (blue on mojo), it samples at 96 (green on mojo). I thought it might be the Mojo 2, but i tested on Quobuz and everything works fine? I had the same issue when listening on my iPad too? Anyone have any idea why this happens? P.s. It sounds noticeably better on Quobuz!


I’m using an FC3 on the iPad and it seems to show correct LED color when it’s plpaying Hi-Rez.


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## Edyeded86

slick1ru2 said:


> I’m using an FC3 on the iPad and it seems to show correct LED color when it’s plpaying Hi-Rez.


Yes, I’ve turned it the setting for automatically allowing the Dolby atmos feature, that has seemed to do the trick. Although, every one and then it still doesn’t sample correctly. 

Interestingly, also doing a SQ comparison (AB) with Apple Music and Quobuz, and I’m noticing that the Quobuz is slightly better on the SQ. will probably also try tidal too.


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## slick1ru2

Edyeded86 said:


> Yes, I’ve turned it the setting for automatically allowing the Dolby atmos feature, that has seemed to do the trick. Although, every one and then it still doesn’t sample correctly.
> 
> Interestingly, also doing a SQ comparison (AB) with Apple Music and Quobuz, and I’m noticing that the Quobuz is slightly better on the SQ. will probably also try tidal too.


Ok, I had it happen today, the indicator was showing lossless, cd bit rate, for every bit rate song and did so on every track until I pulled out  my dac and reattached it. Then it was indicating correctly.


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## Failed Engineer

Is there an app that can control a headless Mac's Apple Music (and it's full library) from iOS or MacOS?  I recently figured out how to send the Apple Music stream to HQPlayer so wanted to give it a proper evaluation to see if I can ditch Roon/Tidal but a proper controller is critical.  As far as I've searched, there's only the iOS Remote app but that only allows access to the traditional iTunes library, not Apple Music.  Then there's screen sharing which is clunky and not really a proper solution.


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## iamoneagain

Failed Engineer said:


> Is there an app that can control a headless Mac's Apple Music (and it's full library) from iOS or MacOS?  I recently figured out how to send the Apple Music stream to HQPlayer so wanted to give it a proper evaluation to see if I can ditch Roon/Tidal but a proper controller is critical.  As far as I've searched, there's only the iOS Remote app but that only allows access to the traditional iTunes library, not Apple Music.  Then there's screen sharing which is clunky and not really a proper solution.


Hopefully Apple will come out with some kind of handoff feature like Spotify Connect. Right now I believe can only do that with the HomePod mini and maybe Apple TV. But really they should allow you to control any device running Apple Music.  

Hoping for some more announcements later this year when they release their classical app. Would think those people would more likely want to listen on a home setup, so lossless Airplay 2 or a handoff feature would be important. I guess even a HomePod with digital line outs would be a solutions for some.


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## Redvic

Hi all, i have maybe noob questions regarding spatial audio:

1. Is spatial audio can be described by audiophile terms such as staging, separation, etc. Or it is something else?

 2. Are those gimmick can be applied to other application, such as gaming audio?


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## gregorio

Redvic said:


> 1. Is spatial audio can be described by audiophile terms such as staging, separation, etc. Or it is something else?


Sort of but not entirely. Those audiophile terms are rather vague and can describe purely perceptual/physiological effects, while spatial audio is an actual physical audio difference. Spatial audio describes some form of surround sound, so the difference between (2 channel) stereo and 5.1 surround sound for example. Typically though, it describes a surround sound format that also includes height information, EG. A surround format with speakers above your listening position as well as around. Dolby Atmos being the most common example of such a format. 


Redvic said:


> 2. Are those gimmick can be applied to other application, such as gaming audio?


It’s not really a gimmick, it’s a real thing that has tangible benefits. How well it works and how well it’s been employed when it’s re-mixed/processed for headphone output is a different question though, which depends on a number of variables, including your personal attributes (such as head size/width and many others). And yes, it can be applied to game audio and other applications, such as VR for example. 

G


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## Redvic

gregorio said:


> Sort of but not entirely. Those audiophile terms are rather vague and can describe purely perceptual/physiological effects, while spatial audio is an actual physical audio difference. Spatial audio describes some form of surround sound, so the difference between (2 channel) stereo and 5.1 surround sound for example. Typically though, it describes a surround sound format that also includes height information, EG. A surround format with speakers above your listening position as well as around. Dolby Atmos being the most common example of such a format.
> 
> It’s not really a gimmick, it’s a real thing that has tangible benefits. How well it works and how well it’s been employed when it’s re-mixed/processed for headphone output is a different question though, which depends on a number of variables, including your personal attributes (such as head size/width and many others). And yes, it can be applied to game audio and other applications, such as VR for example.
> 
> G


Okay, so, apple try to recreate for example 5.1 or 7.1 sound through their iem? Is this hardware application or software application? 
How well it can be applied for a regular earbud?


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## Surf Monkey (Jul 30, 2022)

Redvic said:


> Okay, so, apple try to recreate for example 5.1 or 7.1 sound through their iem? Is this hardware application or software application?
> How well it can be applied for a regular earbud?



It’s kind of confusing. There are two things happening with Apple’s audio.

1) Spatial Audio: this is a hardware/software feature that uses sensors to place sound in a specific spot. So, if you’re wearing headphones and watching TV, the sound will always seem to come from the TV regardless of where your head is pointing. It only works with Apple and Beats branded headphones.

2) Dolby Atmos: Atmos is a system that adds height channel speakers to a 5.1 surround system. BUT it is ALSO a software codec that can create the impression of _virtual _width and height channels. In that capacity it works with any stereo headphones.

Apple is pretty loose with their terms around these two things. They tend to refer to them both as “spatial audio.” But spatial audio only works with Apple/Beats headphones with an accelerometer. Atmos doesn’t need physical sensors.

Here’s a relatively straight forward explainer:

https://www.gearpatrol.com/tech/a36932143/apple-spatial-audio-vs-dolby-atmos-whats-the-difference/


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## gregorio

Redvic said:


> Is this hardware application or software application?
> How well it can be applied for a regular earbud?


It’s software. 

It’s impossible to say how well it will work for any particular individual, due to personal characteristics as I mentioned. It works by applying binaural techniques (head related transfer function, HRTF)  to which Apple also applies head-tracking. The software is proprietary, so no one outside Dolby or Apple knows exactly what it’s doing.

G


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## Surf Monkey

gregorio said:


> It’s software.
> 
> It’s impossible to say how well it will work for any particular individual, due to personal characteristics as I mentioned. It works by applying binaural techniques (head related transfer function, HRTF)  to which Apple also applies head-tracking. The software is proprietary, so no one outside Dolby or Apple knows exactly what it’s doing.
> 
> G



See above. Spatial Audio is hardware and software. Dolby Atmos is alternately hardware in a 5.1 system and purely software in a stereo headphone system.


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## gregorio

Surf Monkey said:


> Dolby Atmos is alternately hardware in a 5.1 system and purely software in a stereo headphone system.


Dolby Atmos is a clever system that uses “audio objects”, essentially it’s based on a 7.1 “bed” plus up to 128 audio objects. These “audio objects” are assigned by software to physical outputs (speakers) depending on what speakers your system has, up to 64 in the case of cinemas. 

With a 5.1 system, what you’re effectively getting is a software mix down of the 7.1 + audio objects mix encoded in the Dolby Atmos data stream. With headphones you’re getting a software mix-down from that 7.1 + audio objects mix to binaural stereo. 

G


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## Surf Monkey

gregorio said:


> Dolby Atmos is a clever system that uses “audio objects”, essentially it’s based on a 7.1 “bed” plus up to 128 audio objects. These “audio objects” are assigned by software to physical outputs (speakers) depending on what speakers your system has, up to 64 in the case of cinemas.
> 
> With a 5.1 system, what you’re effectively getting is a software mix down of the 7.1 + audio objects mix encoded in the Dolby Atmos data stream. With headphones you’re getting a software mix-down from that 7.1 + audio objects mix to binaural stereo.
> 
> G



^^^ This


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## Redvic

Thank u all i think i get the gist of it. Excellent explanation from everyone


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## Ken G

After using both Spacial Audio and Atmos, below are some of my thoughts and observations:

*Spatial Audio *- Works fantastic on the iPad/iPhone with the AirPods Pro. It does give the sense that main dialogue is coming from a speaker in front of you even when you turn your head. I think there are some surround effects but didn't notice it as much as the main soundtrack and dialogue coming from in front of you. I think Audeze has similar DSP software on some of their gaming headsets. I have not tried using Spatial Audio/AirPods Pro with the Apple TV but guessing it works the same as on the iPad.

*Dolby Atmos* -  

With AirPods Pro - Definitely enhances the Soundstage and the Instrument/Vocal Separation - probably as much or more than the average audiophile IEM. In my experience though, IEM offerings from Campfire Audio and 64 Audio are still better with Soundstage and Separation (without Atmos DSP) while blowing the AirPods out of the water with their technical abilities (Details, Dynamics, Speed, etc). For the price though, the AirPod Pro's sound pretty decent and you can't beat the versatility - Bluetooth, decent for calls, noise cancelling works very well, sweat proof and great for exercise (which is my main use case for them).
With an Atmos Speaker setup - This is where the Atmos music really shines. I have a 5.4.1 setup (5 traditional Dolby speaker setup with 4 add'l ceiling atmospheric speakers, 1 sub) and Apple Music sounds terrific. If you have a home theater setup and a receiver that can decode Dolby Atmos, I highly recommend trying it out. It sounds very spacious and better than the usual DSP on receivers for 5.1 music or all channel stereo (Receiver makers usually call these DSP modes different things depending on Brand).


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## iamoneagain

One thing to note about using the Spacial stuff on Apple Music. The sound quality will only be 256k. That might not matter to you if what it achieves sounds better to you than lossless music. I didn’t like to at all with my Focal Utopia but with the Beats studio, some stuff was more fun to listen to.


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## Edyeded86

Ken G said:


> After using both Spacial Audio and Atmos, below are some of my thoughts and observations:
> 
> *Spatial Audio *- Works fantastic on the iPad/iPhone with the AirPods Pro. It does give the sense that main dialogue is coming from a speaker in front of you even when you turn your head. I think there are some surround effects but didn't notice it as much as the main soundtrack and dialogue coming from in front of you. I think Audeze has similar DSP software on some of their gaming headsets. I have not tried using Spatial Audio/AirPods Pro with the Apple TV but guessing it works the same as on the iPad.
> 
> ...


I've always found spatial audio to be hit or miss on headphones/AirPods - sometimes sounds great, other time terrible. I always notice that volume is also a lot lower.


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## R3NA1SSANC3

How are you able to verify that the Shield is passing audio bit perfectly?


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## R3NA1SSANC3

jmtocali said:


> Nvidia Shield also pass bit perfect audio for Apple Music over HDMI


How are you able to verify that the Shield is passing audio bit perfectly over HDMI?


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## jmtocali

R3NA1SSANC3 said:


> How are you able to verify that the Shield is passing audio bit perfectly over HDMI?


My receiver shows the audio stream info. It shows the bitrate/freq equally as Apple music shows (16/44.1, 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.2, 24/96, 24/176.4 and 24/192)


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## Tal00

Ken G said:


> After using both Spacial Audio and Atmos, below are some of my thoughts and observations:
> 
> *Spatial Audio *- Works fantastic on the iPad/iPhone with the AirPods Pro. It does give the sense that main dialogue is coming from a speaker in front of you even when you turn your head. I think there are some surround effects but didn't notice it as much as the main soundtrack and dialogue coming from in front of you. I think Audeze has similar DSP software on some of their gaming headsets. I have not tried using Spatial Audio/AirPods Pro with the Apple TV but guessing it works the same as on the iPad.
> 
> ...


Only 2nd Generation AppleTV 4K (check me on that) will broadcast Dolby Atmos sound for Apple Music via HDMI.


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## R3NA1SSANC3 (Dec 12, 2022)

jmtocali said:


> My receiver shows the audio stream info. It shows the bitrate/freq equally as Apple music shows (16/44.1, 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.2, 24/96, 24/176.4 and 24/192)


Thanks for the reply.

So here's where I'm at. I have a TV as the hub of my audio setup (Samsung TV, Amazon Fire TV 4k, Focusrite Scarlett audio interface or iFi xDSD Gryphon as the DAC), that I'd like to get bit perfect audio to stream to. I've been looking at devices like the Shield to replace the Fire TV since it doesn't send bit perfect audio over USB and the Apple Music app doesn't work in the Fire TV.

With that said, what settings are you using on the Shield for bit perfect playback? Have you tried using an external DAC with the Shield? If so, is the output bit perfect?


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## Sterling2

Tal00 said:


> Only 2nd Generation AppleTV 4K (check me on that) will broadcast Dolby Atmos sound for Apple Music via HDMI.


I am going to attempt Apple Music’s Spatial Audio via Apple TV connected to my OPPO-205 in PrePro role feeding a multi-channel Sony TA-P9000ES analog preamplifier. The OPPO will decode Dolby ATMOS but since the Sony zpresmp is just 5.1 the ATMOS channels will end up coming from front channels. At a later date I hope to get a modern PrePro and an additional stereo power amp to get the full ATMOS experience.


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## Tal00

Sterling2 said:


> I am going to attempt Apple Music’s Spatial Audio via Apple TV connected to my OPPO-205 in PrePro role feeding a multi-channel Sony TA-P9000ES analog preamplifier. The OPPO will decode Dolby ATMOS but since the Sony zpresmp is just 5.1 the ATMOS channels will end up coming from front channels. At a later date I hope to get a modern PrePro and an additional stereo power amp to get the full ATMOS experience.


That might work but I’m not sure how a downmixed Atmos track will sound on 5.1. I believe it a 7.1 feed with “Atmos spatial data”  embedded in the stream. My guess it can sound pretty nice. I have not had a chance to setup my refurbished Apple TV which I purchased specifically for this job yet 😢. Too much work 🤦🏻‍♂️ I used to listen to some DTS audio DVDs which were sampled from old quadrophonic tapes. And some sounded fantastic. And that was from 35 years ago!


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## R3NA1SSANC3

jmtocali said:


> My receiver shows the audio stream info. It shows the bitrate/freq equally as Apple music shows (16/44.1, 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.2, 24/96, 24/176.4 and 24/192)


Did you sideload the Apple Music app on the Shield? Or are you casting to it?


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## jmtocali

R3NA1SSANC3 said:


> Did you sideload the Apple Music app on the Shield? Or are you casting to it?


I sideloaded to the Shield. Normally I download the APK from apkmirror in my phone and use an app named send files to tv


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## R3NA1SSANC3

jmtocali said:


> I sideloaded to the Shield. Normally I download the APK from apkmirror in my phone and use an app named send files to tv


Have you used the Shield to stream over Chromecast? If so, is it bit perfect?


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