# Usb 24 192khz M2tech Hiface



## gattari

M2Tech
 Another fun toy after the monitor musiland. 01 us.
 It was sold in the hifi show in Milan at a price of 99 euros


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## TheShaman

It'd be really interesting to see a picture of the unit opened up...
 Anyone tried it, btw?


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## GuidoR

A very interesting device.
 I also had the opportunity to hear a demo (with state-of-the-art system) in Milan at the hifi show, and I spoken with the designer.
 "Inside the case" there is a micro, a two quartz precision oscillators clock ref, and a s/pdif interface.
 The "devil" is in the proprietary driver, it's able to release from USB clock and to use USB-2.
 Yes, it's really 24/192
 No more PCM 270*, no Tas1020, no more ASIO drivers.

 And driving it is a very easy task for a PC, so that even a Intel Atom is enough.
 And yes, the sound is really OK.
 I think that soon we will get wind of it.

 And no, the designer is not my cousin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Ciao!


 GuidoR


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## DoYouRight

WHERE CAN I GET ONE? JESUS CHRIST ITS PERFECT!


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## GuidoR

It will be distributed through the italian review Audiofilemusic.com
 When it will become available, I'll inform you
 Or contact them directly.
 BTW, on their site there are two tracks (freely downloadable) in different resolutions: AudioFileMusic.com
 44KHz/16bit WAV / FLAC
 88KHz/24bit WAV / FLAC
 176 KHz / 24 bit WAV / FLAC
 MP3 128 Kbps

 Stay tuned! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Guido


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GuidoR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It will be distributed through the italian review Audiofilemusic.com
 When it will become available, I'll inform you
 Or contact them directly._

 

I have just bought the M2tech hiface converter this morning through contacting them by e-mail

 From what I understood, they have an exclusive distributor only in Italy. For all other countries, you can contact them by mail to order the unit.


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## argentum

What was the price? 99 euros + shipping or something different ?


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *argentum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What was the price? 99 euros + shipping or something different ?_

 

When you contact them directly, the asking price is 82.5 euros + shipping.


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## argentum

What about payment method - wire transfer or do they accept Paypal ?


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## DoYouRight

yes let me know also


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *argentum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about payment method - wire transfer or do they accept Paypal ?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes let me know also 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I paid using paypal but they seem to accept wire transfers too.


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## TheShaman

You already know we are all waiting for a comparison to your Musiland...


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## Patu

This thing is extremely interesting. I also got the price for the device through e-mail. I also got a link to some Italian forum where they have discussed more about the product. There should be some impressions about the little gadget. 

Videohifi Forum

 Now where are all our Italian Head-Fi'ers. Some translation maybe?


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## gevorg

Looks interesting but with little information available I don't see anything that can make it better than Musiland variants. Anyone have pics of internals and/or more details on how it works?


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## DoYouRight

I want one now! what is 99 euros to USD?


 says it bypasses a clock to reduce jitter even more, and NO CABLE helps with variations.


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## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I want one now! what is 99 euros to USD?

_

 

Just google "99 euros to USD"


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks interesting but with little information available I don't see anything that can make it better than Musiland variants. Anyone have pics of internals and/or more details on how it works?_

 

While the Musiland is very good as a transport (better than the emu 0404 usb), I have found that the Teralink-x is even better probably because it uses a low jitter clock and good capacitors (while the cmedia chip is in theory inferior to the async protocol of the musiland). 
 Anyway, the m2tech converter should be sent tomorrow and I will post a comparison with the other usb to spdif converters I have on hand. And as you said, there is no way to know beforehand. But it looks promising since the conceptor is well aware of the effect of jitter and tried to minimize it.


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I want one now! what is 99 euros to USD?


 says it bypasses a clock to reduce jitter even more, and NO CABLE helps with variations._

 

Approx $150.


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## DoYouRight

sweet. It also will have Linux and Mac Drivers!!!!


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## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While the Musiland is very good as a transport (better than the emu 0404 usb), I have found that the Teralink-x is even better probably because it uses a low jitter clock and good capacitors (while the cmedia chip is in theory inferior to the async protocol of the musiland). 
 Anyway, the m2tech converter should be sent tomorrow and I will post a comparison with the other usb to spdif converters I have on hand. And as you said, there is no way to know beforehand. But it looks promising since the conceptor is well aware of the effect of jitter and tried to minimize it._

 

Well, I have a musiland U.S. 02 and I am very satisfied. 
 Also used as the DAC musiland 02 defends very well. 
 I will wait anxiously for your proof
 Ciao Massimo


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## GuidoR

White paper from constructor's site:
http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/Whi...n%20hiFace.pdf

 Promising, isn't it?


 Guido


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## Adda

Sigh... yet another awesome peace of HW made useless by proprietary drivers...

 Edit: OH Linux drivers!!! I take it back.


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GuidoR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_White paper from constructor's site:
http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/Whi...n%20hiFace.pdf

 Promising, isn't it?


 Guido_

 

Hrm. I thought RCA can't be truly 75ohm...


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## DoYouRight

yea maybe a mod or I am going to email them about that.


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## TheShaman

Canare manufacture 75 Ohm RCAs..


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Canare manufacture 75 Ohm RCAs.._

 

I thought I read that there is no true RCA 75ohm connector. I believe I read it while researching on SB3 mod and the modder is named "Arts" with "Pat" as a sig name.


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## DoYouRight

its very difficult. just some reason bnc sounds better to me than coax. might be the cable! who knows. either way this thing isnt going to be held back.


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## tosehee

There. I found it.

The SB3/SPDIF output thread.......

 About the middle where Art put the link.


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## tosehee

Italian translated to English. Seems like some stability issues with the driver.......

  Quote:


 
 Indeed, after a couple of days of use, I'm noticing that every time the PC crashes and reboots itself, if not take off in the process of restarting the memory stick, PC continues to reboottare until you pull it out. Una volta riavviato regolarmente, la reinserisco e il tutto riprende a funzionare regolarmente. Once rebooted regularly, rehabilitation and everything starts to work properly.
 Inoltre, ma non sempre, quando in Foobar attivo il comando di Start, si sente come un crepitio e niente musica. Furthermore, but not always, when in active command of Foobar Start, feels like a crackling sound and no music. Attivo lo Stop per due o tre volte ea questo punto parte la musica. Stop active for two or three times, at which point the music.
 Scusate il linguaggio non del tutto appropriato. Sorry for the language is not entirely appropriate. Ma l'informatica, soprattutto quella applicata alla ripeoduzione audio, non è il mio mestiere. But computer science, especially applied to ripeoduzione audio is not my job.
 In ogni caso domani proverò a mettermi in contatto con la ditta costruttrice per sentire cosa mi dicono a tale riguardo. Anyway, tomorrow I'll try to get in touch with the developer to hear what I say in this regard.
 Come suona? How does it sound? Dovrò fare altre sedute di ascolto più approfondite, ma non mi sembra molto superiore a un DAC USB di un'anonima (e sicuramente cinese) Soundking BS032-2 acquistata in un negozio di strumenti musicali a 27,00 euro. I have to do more listening sessions in greater depth, but it seems to me far superior to a USB DAC of an unnamed (and certainly China) Soundking BS032-2 purchased in a shop of musical instruments to 27.00 euros.
 Preciso che non l'ho provata con files a 192 Khz, ma solo con files Wav (a 44,1 Khz ?). Clear that I have not tested with a 192 kHz files, but only with WAV files (44.1 kHz?).
 Renato Colombo Renato Colombo


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## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Italian translated to English. Seems like some stability issues with the driver......._

 

I am a member of the forum videohifi for now only one person has given a negative opinion about this toy. 
 I would say to wait for further evidence before making judgments.


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gattari* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am a member of the forum videohifi for now only one person has given a negative opinion about this toy. 
 I would say to wait for further evidence before making judgments._

 

Definitely. A few more days, we'll hear more impressions and reviews.

 I also have sent emails to m2tech, asking if bnc output is possible as default.


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## DoYouRight

patience is a virtue. and these things will keep coming out like crazy over time. especially when the usb2.0 implementation of usb audio that was released is used more. there will be converters out the azz


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## tosehee

For those who are interested in bnc connector, i got this in email.

  Quote:


 Hi,

 we can arrange a custom interface with 75 Ohms BNC connector at a slightly higher cost. It will be a real 75 Ohms interface.
 You can pay with Paypal.
 Delivery time should be around one week or ten days from the date of shipment.

 Regards, 
 

i decided to give a try. the price went up by $18, but I guess it's worth it. the type of connector is Tyco for mechanical limits, but he says that the quality is very high on this connector also.


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## tosehee

For those who are interested, the mac drivers are said to be released within a month or so.


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## gattari

Italians comment for hiface are very good concerning quality sound, but there are little problems for now with the software.


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## MikeW

does this thing have pulse transformers? hard to imagine in that little bitty enclosure.


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## DoYouRight

very curious when someone gets theirs to compare to musiland!


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## tosehee

Mine just shipped, so I will get in next 5-7 business days.


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## gattari

From italy - videohifi forum :
 With the new drv the hiface seems to go in very excellent way.

 quote:
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Per chi ha l'interfaccia: fateci sapere come va con i nuovi driver...

 Cordiali saluti

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 va alla grande! i vari problemi di instabilità del driver sono stati risolti, su win xp la penna va alla stragrande.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I am curious if it is more good then the musiland interface.
 Ciao


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## tosehee

Quote:


 P.S.: you're about to receive the latest version of both microcode and driver. 
 

I guess I am getting a new microcode upgrade as well. Not sure how this gets upgraded though if they release a new one.


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## DoYouRight

excellent


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine just shipped, so I will get in next 5-7 business days._

 

Mine was shipped today too


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## DoYouRight

very good news!


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## Patu

Where are all the impressions? I thought that some of you received this thing early this week.


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where are all the impressions? I thought that some of you received this thing early this week._

 

I think that there was a delay of the shipment of the converters because an issue with the drivers had to be solved. Mine was sent wednsday, so I guess it could arrive anytime soon


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## tosehee

Mine shipped wed also. i don't think I will get it until at the end of next week though.


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## slim.a

While my unit is still on its way (the italian post does not seem to be the fastest one), I asked Marco at m2tech about spdif cables and media players.

 Spdif Cables :
 After reading this article about spdif and cable length, I asked if Marco had any recommendations about a specific brand or length of cables to use.
 I copied his answer below :
_theoretically, with a perfect matching cable length doesn't matter. With a partial mismatch, you can have a benefit by a longer cable when the length is such that the reflected wave is either in phase with the direct wave or the length is an exact multiple of the wavelength. But you can't control this, so it's absolutely random. On the other hand, every cable shows an attenuation which is proportional to length, so a long cable would have reflections with a slightly lower magnitude because of the extra path they run with respect to the direct wave (which travels the shortest path).
 Summarizing: with a good match, short cables are better because attenuation is reduced and EMI sensitivity is low too; with a poor match, we're in the hands of God._


 Media Players :
 Apparently, with the new drivers, the m2tech can work with Foobar, Media Monkey and WinAmp.


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## tosehee

I should get it ether today or tomorrow. As for the cable length and such, it makes sense, and I doubt it's audible. If you got the default hiface, then it's rca -> bnc. The rca cannot truly output 75ohm, so there is impedance mismatch already.

 i have ordered the custom one, so I get true 75 ohm, so the shorter length would be better for me.


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## DoYouRight

very excited about the news!


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## gattari

*Courtesy of Giorgio a videohifi forumers*

 We just finished a session of the digital measurement of the following apparatus: 


 - M2Tech HiFace 

 - Nagra DII 

 - Marantz CDR620 

 - Lynx Two 

 The instrument used to measure the jitter and the status channel is Neutrik A2D. 

 Here are the results:










 The first place as the stability of jitter is the pen USB-> SPDIF, then the Nagra DII, then the Lynx Two PCI card, and finally the CD Recorder Professional. 

 In terms of the deviation in frequency, we find the Lynx in the first place, followed by pen USB-> SPDIF on par with the Nagra DII and finally, in this case, the Marantz CD recorder. 


 At this point, any doubt about the quality of the output signal should be dispelled. The problem with some of the coupling is almost certainly due to the DAC output level that should applied concurrently to 0.5V pp and instead is equal to 2.74V pp. The designers are working to put in "template" level output signal while ensuring full compatibility with all DAC Marketing


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## gevorg

Do they have discussion/interpretation of the results and how the measurements were done?

 If "JIT=0.970ns" means 970ps of jitter, it doesn't look too well against some of the gear Stereophile measured for jitter.


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## DoYouRight

yea I just wanna see musiland vs m2tech vs say offrampturbo


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## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do they have discussion/interpretation of the results and how the measurements were done?

 If "JIT=0.970ns" means 970ps of jitter, it doesn't look too well against some of the gear Stereophile measured for jitter._

 

The discussion is just starting Videohifi Forum


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do they have discussion/interpretation of the results and how the measurements were done?

 If "JIT=0.970ns" means 970ps of jitter, it doesn't look too well against some of the gear Stereophile measured for jitter._

 

This seems worse than musiland if true. I thought musiland is talking about sub 100ps here.. And this thing is 970ps??? What the....


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do they have discussion/interpretation of the results and how the measurements were done?

 If "JIT=0.970ns" means 970ps of jitter, it doesn't look too well against some of the gear Stereophile measured for jitter._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems worse than musiland if true._

 

From what I understand jitter measurements should be handled and interpreted with great care.

 First, Stereophile usually measures jitter at the DAC output, which means that the signal coming from the transport has already gone through many steps before being measured. The only time I saw stereophile measure jitter at the digital level, it gave very high level : The bel canto usb link was measured at 2 ns and the emu 0404 usb at around 8ns of jitter.
 Anyway, those numbers should not been compared directly to other measurements if the other tests are not using the same parameters : test protocol, measured frequency, test equipment, ...

 Second, I have seen a lot of jitter numbers thrown about the Musiland but not all of them are comparable in my opinion to those that are measured at videohifi. Some people suggested that the total jitter of the Musiland depends on the jitter of the FPGA used in it. However, in the specs of the Xilinx, there isn't a direct reference to which jitter is actually being measured. Also, the Musiland use some very cheap clocks that hold back its potential (bad phase clock noise performance). This might explain why a simple unit such as the Teralink-x (which however uses high quality clock and power filtration) can outperform the Musiland. 

 As an owner of the Musiland Monitor 01, I am a little bit disappointed of its performance consedering that it uses asynch usb that is in theory way superior to the usual adaptive mode.

 In my opinion, if the m2tech Hiface converter has comparable performance to the Lynx PCI cards, it is great news.

 Anyway, all of this is pure speculation from me. I am still awaiting for the m2tech hiface so that I can directly compare it to the other converters I own (musiland monitor 01 usd, Teralink-x and Emu 0404 usb)


 Edit --- I found here a different measurement of the LynxTwo which shows its jitter (at the analog outputs at around 20ps)


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## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I understand jitter measurements should be handled and interpreted with great care.

 First, Stereophile usually measures jitter ...........


 Edit ---
 I found here an different measurement of the LynxTwo which shows its jitter (at the analog outputs at around 20ps)_

 

_ I agree_


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## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I understand jitter measurements should be handled and interpreted with great care._

 

Of course, this is why I asked about discussion/interpretation of the results. Google Translate is pretty cool. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 The only time I saw stereophile measure jitter at the digital level, it gave very high level : The bel canto usb link was measured at 2 ns and the emu 0404 usb at around 8ns of jitter. 
 

Interesting. Do you have a link for this?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...
 Anyway, all of this is pure speculation from me. I am still awaiting for the m2tech hiface so that I can directly compare it to the other converters I own (musiland monitor 01 usd, Teralink-x and Emu 0404 usb)_

 

Looking forward to your comparisons!


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## tosehee

Well, I am all for more update on this matter.


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting. Do you have a link for this?_

 

The jitter numbers are here : Stereophile: Bel Canto USB Link 24/96 USB-S/PDIF converter

 I copied below the text discussing jitter at the digital output of the converters. 
 Also, the bel canto has around 6ns of jitter (instead of 2ns as I typed yesterday).

_Fig.1, for example, shows the eye pattern of the Boulder 1021 disc player's data output, plotted over one "unit cycle" as, for 60 seconds, it fed the Audio Precision a 16-bit AES/EBU datastream comprising the Miller/Dunn J-Test Signal. The calculated jitter level was the lowest I have so far measured with the SYS2722, at 1.75ns, and you can see that, other than a slight thickening of the horizontal sections of the traces, the eye is indeed wide open.

 Fig.1 Boulder 1021, eye pattern of AES/EBU data output carrying 16-bit J-Test signal (±3V vertical scale, 175ns horizontal scale).

 For comparison, fig.2 shows the eye pattern of the Bel Canto USB Link's output feeding the same data to the Audio Precision, sourced from a WAV file on the Mac mini. You can see that while the eye is still wide open, there is greater timing uncertainty at the start and finish of the unit cycle than there was with the Boulder. The measured jitter level was 5.85ns; ie, three times greater than the Boulder. To put this in perspective, the jitter from the E-Mu 0404 fed the 16-bit Miller/Dunn data was 7.9ns, and that of the M-Audio Transit USB was 2ns. _

 By the way, the Boulder CD player that is mentioned by Stereophile costs $24,000!


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## DoYouRight

if you match the stereophile of the transit at 2ns and the m2tech at 0.97ns that is significant. However there are no real standards of testing between any tests talked about.


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you match the stereophile of the transit at 2ns and the m2tech at 0.97ns that is significant. However there are no real standards of testing between any tests talked about._

 

There is yet another thing that is bothering me with the stereophile test : out of the 4 units that are mentioned (Boulder, Bel canto, emu, Transit) the Transit is the ony one who has an optical only output. I have read on other tests on stereophile that they use a DCS digital to Digital converter on some gear that do not have the appropriate digital output. So maybe they did it for the Transit and that explains why the measure of the Transit is so close to the Boulder Unit (which costs $24,000).

 Anyone compared a Transit to other units in their systems to see if that measurement correlates to how it sounds ?


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## gattari

The explanations of Giorgio in videohifi forum about the measures, confirms the thought of Slim.a. 
 In summary measures are excellent, now we see in practice.
 Ciao


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## tosehee

Well, if these results are really true, then I am really damn happy with 0.97ns result. Still better than Lynx II which I didn't pay too much attention to.


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## gattari

Not come to anyone yet?


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## slim.a

The italian post seems to be exceedingly slow. My unit left Rome to France 5 days ago and there has not been an update in the tracking status since last friday.


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## tosehee

Mine should arrive today. If not tomorrow

 Edit:

 just got mine, but I am having an installation issue. I am using Windows 7 64, and it refuses to install the driver..

 I guess those who are using Windows 7 are lucked out or something... I sent email to m2tech and waiting on their response.


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## DoYouRight

have patience you are the sole american holder atm they wont let you struggle very long.


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_have patience you are the sole american holder atm they wont let you struggle very long._

 

I hope so too.

 The exact error message is:

 "You have to run the 64 bit version of DPInst.exe on this machine.

 Contact the vendor that provided you this package"


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## hawkhead

DPInst Command-Line Switches


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## DoYouRight

Im assuming that they didnt default the 64 bit drivers to you, just assumed most had 32bit. Shoot em an email. I wanna know how this thing sounds!


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im assuming that they didnt default the 64 bit drivers to you, just assumed most had 32bit. Shoot em an email. I wanna know how this thing sounds!_

 

I did and still waiting on their response. I can't believe that none of the italians have the 64bit Windows 7 users.


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## DoYouRight

64bit used to be a taboo for hardcore, now its just to be able to use over 3GB ram. My 3 year old laptop is running it flawlessly. Hope they realize. If it wont work on x64 Windows 7 Im not interested. I will not abandon this OS it is too perfect.



 EDIT: Have you tried installing it in Vista 64 bit compatibility mode?


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## tosehee

Yes. I tried with different compatibility modes, and none of them works. I have installed on my spare laptop which has XP 32bit on, and that works with KS streaming.

 But like you said, I will be very disappointed if I have to install 32bit just to use this thing. Not to mention that there is no Mac/Linux drivers yet for this either.


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## HotHead

Does anyone know if this Windows 7 64bit driver issue is also a problem with the Musiland Monitor 01/02 USD/US devices?


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## DoYouRight

How does it sound on 32bit? Give us a taste! Wish you had a musiland to compare with


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does it sound on 32bit? Give us a taste! Wish you had a musiland to compare with_

 

I am ABxing right now with this setup.

 1. Mac Pro (boot camp) using Foo bar 0.9.6.9 with Wasapi -> Optical out to Ref1
 2. laptop -> XP 32bit -> Foo bar 0.9.6.9 with KS using Hiface -> BNC to Ref1.

 I am playing the exact same song with same software. only difference is the input method on Ref1 and Operating System used(and Wasapi vs. KS obviously)

 A few things that are noticed right away.

 a. When I play on Mac Pro, I get this noise/click when the music first starts. This issue disappears on hiface.
 b. Not all songs shows the noticeable differences. Some are more apparent than the others. 
 c. Overall, the sound is smoother, but not by much.
 d. #c contributes to less fatigue sounding
 e. The instruments sound more natural to me. Mostly playing with Chopin's.
 f. Listening to "oh, danny boy", the holographic imaging is more audible through hiface. With optical, it disappears rather rapidly, but with hiface, it remains longer.
 g. There is occassional pauses with hiface when the laptop is locking the screen and etc. This probably disappears with high performance power options.

 Longer I listen to, it's hard to tell the differences.  

 Now, I am onto other songs. I will update more if i find more. Hopefully I get the solution from m2tech on 64bit drivers soon.


 EDIT: 
 g. The pause does disappear with high performance power options.


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## tosehee

Due to time differences, I doubt I will hear anything from m2tech for today.

 EDIT:

 Trying to see if it works under Windows XP VMware.

 The driver installs fine, but when I try to run in foobar, it hangs. so, big no-no if you want to play around with vmware + xp.

 EDIT:

 I found another way around it. Instead of using Mac Pro + OSX + VMWare + XP, I used XP Mode under Windows 7. It installs fine and it also lets you play the music.

 However, there are so many glitches, clicks, noises in the system that this mode is not usable at all. I have also increased the memory of xp mode to 2g and that helps a bit with glitches, but still far from the quality that you can expect from this device.

 With that said, I think this device is FAR from ready for a public use. There is no 64bit driver available, and it still hangs and crashes the Foobar2000. IMO, this product needs more thorough testing, more solid driver, and availablility of 64bit driver is the bare minimum.

 I will continue to play around and monitor the progress on this device, but for now, Musiland seems like a better buy.


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## slim.a

I should get my unit today, I hope that it works fine with windows xp media center I am using

 Any new update on how it sounds/more comparisons ?


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## tosehee

Just got a response from m2tech that they have 64 bit compiled already and performing the test with foobar.

 EDIT:

 I have volunteered to be a beta tester for m2tech folks, and I might be able to get the developer compiled driver for x64. I won't report here any issues with the driver as it is 'beta' and should be reported back directly to the m2tech, but I can/will share the sound quality once it's verified to work.


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should get my unit today, I hope that it works fine with windows xp media center I am using

 Any new update on how it sounds/more comparisons ?_

 

Does the media center work with KS? Hiface only works with Kernel Streaming as far as I know.


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## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the media center work with KS? Hiface only works with Kernel Streaming as far as I know._

 

The media center doesn't work with KS. I will have to use foobar or mediamonkey with the hiface. 
 If the hiface outperform my other converters, I will still have to connect another usb converter (through optical) to use the Media Center. Hopefully, m2tech will release DS drivers down the road.


----------



## DoYouRight

why use media center for your headphones?

 i have mediadirect on my dell its a slimlined xp tho


----------



## tosehee

Doesn't DS can't output bitperfect? I thought KS, Wasapi, ASIO are the ones that are capable.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why use media center for your headphones?

 i have mediadirect on my dell its a slimlined xp tho_

 

I am using media center to watch movies and tv series (not for music). In fact since I did all my recent upgrades to my system, I watch movies and series (whenever I am alone) with my headphones as it provides a unique immersive experience 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It is a much more enjoyable experience than through speakers (in my set-up). So for me, it would be nice to have DS drivers.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't DS can't output bitperfect? I thought KS, Wasapi, ASIO are the ones that are capable._

 

I think that in some conditions (as claimed by Benchmark Media) there is a possibility to have bit perfect output with DS. But it seems that the majority prefers KS, wasapi and Asio.


----------



## DoYouRight

Im sure you can find a media player that excepts wasapi or asio or something.


----------



## tosehee

I just received the dev compiled x64 driver to test out. What a quick turnaround. I will let you guys know how it works out.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received the dev compiled x64 driver to test out. What a quick turnaround. I will let you guys know how it works out._

 

let us know, it seems that you are the first one to get it on head-fi


----------



## DoYouRight

sweetness. great to be an early adopter youll get everything faster


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sweetness. great to be an early adopter youll get everything faster 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, I am helping myself by helping them out. 

 I have listened many hours yesterday on Windows XP using laptop, and I enjoyed the music through hiface immensely . I actually re-partitioned my Mac Pro (boot camp) using Disk manager in Windows 7, so I could install the older Vista 32bit to use. I enjoy that much to go through such hassle.

 Now that there is 64bit driver to work with, I could avoid that route.Thank God I was tired and couldn't install the Vista 32 on it yet. 

 I will report on 64bit compatibility and how it sounds. This, if works out and stable under 64bit environment, will be 1.02 from what I hear.

 Regards


----------



## K3cT

I can't wait until the inevitable comparison between this, Musiland 01 USD and Teralink-X.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't wait until the inevitable comparison between this, Musiland 01 USD and Teralink-X._

 

Well I received my m2tech unit today and initial impressions are extremely good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I still need to do some more thorough testing but for now all I can say is that straight out of the box, the m2tech is (much) better than the Musiland 01 USD and Teralink-X. 
 I will post a full length comparison review of 4 usb to spdif converters (including the m2tech) this week-end. 
 For now, I will let it burn-in to see if the sound changes.


----------



## MikeW

not surprzing really, teralink and musiland build quality /parts never impressed me. This is exciting, can't wait for your comparison. Wish I knew more about the insides of this thing. Be nice if it had Directsound support for games.


----------



## tosehee

slima. 

 Do you have a regular coaxial output or did you customize it to be BNC? 

 BTW, the changes are a lot more noticeable if your DAC is not re-clocking. Hooking this up to my receiver (Pioneer VSX-92 TXH), the sound is FAR superior to using Apple Airport Express, or directly out of onboard Coaxial on my media/file server (Asus P5E-VM HDMI)


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_slima. 

 Do you have a regular RCA output or did you customize it to be BNC? 

 BTW, the changes are a lot more noticeable if your DAC is not re-clocking. Hooking this up to my receiver (Pioneer VSX-92 TXH), the sound is FAR superior to using Apple Airport Express, or directly out of onboard Coaxial on my media/file server (Asus P5E-VM HDMI)_

 

I ordered mine with a BNC output.

 As for the re-clocking, I totally agree with you : a perfect DAC should not be affected by the transport. However this is not the case with the DAC I am using (the audio-gd dac-19mk3)which is extremely transparent in the analog section but sensitive to transport jitter/quality in the digital side. This might explain why I hear such big diffrences between usb to spdif converters and digital cables.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered mine with a BNC output.

 As for the re-clocking, I totally agree with you : a perfect DAC should not be affected by the transport. However this is not the case with the DAC I am using (the audio-gd dac-19mk3)which is extremely transparent in the analog section but sensitive to transport jitter/quality in the digital side. This might explain why I hear such big diffrences between usb to spdif converters and digital cables._

 

Well, mine supposed to have a pretty damn good jitter correction dsp inside, and I still hear a difference. So, I do not think having THE bad-ass jitter rejection DAC would fight off all the jitters. This is definitely a keeper in my box.


----------



## StateRadioFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I received my m2tech unit today and initial impressions are extremely good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I still need to do some more thorough testing but for now all I can say is that straight out of the box, the m2tech is (much) better than the Musiland 01 USD and Teralink-X. 
 I will post a full length comparison review of 4 usb to spdif converters (including the m2tech) this week-end. 
 For now, I will let it burn-in to see if the sound changes._

 

So the m2tech is (much) better "straight out of the box?" How is it even possible to make a comparison to the Musiland and Teralink converters without an a/b test? Are you basing that opinion purely on memory? I hope the m2tech lives up to the hype but there are far to many flavor of the month products on this forum.


----------



## DoYouRight

Hope I dont suffer from waiting to order one and now get stuck waiting foreveer or paying more.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StateRadioFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the m2tech is (much) better "straight out of the box?" How is it even possible to make a comparison to the Musiland and Teralink converters without an a/b test? Are you basing that opinion purely on memory? I hope the m2tech lives up to the hype but there are far to many flavor of the month products on this forum._

 

I thought he has all those on hand, and his review is based on AB testing, not from a past memory.


----------



## DoYouRight

slim you got bnc right?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_slim you got bnc right?_

 

Just read a few lines above.


----------



## DoYouRight

So are the x64 Seven drivers working well? Are there any options or a panel or something?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So are the x64 Seven drivers working well? Are there any options or a panel or something?_

 

x64 drivers do not work yet. I have notified the m2tech, so awaiting on their reply.

 As for 32bit drivers, slim.a, what OS are you using?

 I have run with these two OS(es), and I seem to hear the difference. Call me crazy..

 1. Windows XP
 2. Windows 7 32bit

 With two above, windows XP sounds much better to me. I don't know why.

 Also, windows 7 32bit crashes a lot. I get BSOD and the system immediately reboots. I reported this also to m2tech for further investigation. Under XP 32bit, the driver is rock solid so far. I haven't crashed once.

 In short, I am seeing that m2tech drivers are little unstable under Windows 7 environment. I am sure it'll get stabilized over time though. I will keep this thread updated with more information as I found/test more stuffs under different environments.

 Regards


----------



## DoYouRight

tos since you didnt get a musiland so no comparison. What improvements are you hearing with your REF1?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tos since you didnt get a musiland so no comparison. What improvements are you hearing with your REF1?_

 

I have reported my findings in previous thread, but in short, the sounds are smoother in general. I can go in depth, but I don't want to sound like m2tech fanboy either, so I will leave the actual review to those who have m2tech and musiland. They (slim.a for one) can probably do a better job at comparison those two.

 As for xp vs. windows 7 (both 32bit), KS in XP sounds more smoother, less harsh to me. The soundstage seems more accurate with more distinction. Again, call me crazy, but that's what I hear. The driver on Windows 7 is not really stable, and this might contribute to this also.

 Regards


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StateRadioFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the m2tech is (much) better "straight out of the box?" How is it even possible to make a comparison to the Musiland and Teralink converters without an a/b test? Are you basing that opinion purely on memory? I hope the m2tech lives up to the hype but there are far to many flavor of the month products on this forum._

 

What I meant about "straight out of the box" is withouth burn-in or warm-up. 

 As for making a comparison, I did an a/b test with the Teralink-X. My method was to listen for a few different songs I am very familiar with using the Teralink-X before giving a try to the m2tech to get used once again to the sound of my system. So purely speaking, there was only a few seconds of gap that took me to switch the digital BNC cable (I used the same cable to make a worthwile comparison).

 Anyway, all of those precautions were not necessary since the difference was very easy to spot. I will go more in depth with the description of the sound later : I already have started writing a review of the 4 usb to spdif converters I currently own : EMU 0404 USB, Teralink-X, Musiland Monitor and m2tech Hiface.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for 32bit drivers, slim.a, what OS are you using?_

 

I am using the m2tech hiface with Windows XP Media Center SP3.


----------



## K3cT

That's interesting, I've never been able to tell sound differences of KS or ASIO between Operating Sytsems so perhaps my ears are not as sensitive as some of you guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've been using Ploytech USB ASIO with Vista 32-bit and this seemed to make things a tad more detailed than WASAPI/KS/ASIO.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hope I dont suffer from waiting to order one and now get stuck waiting foreveer or paying more._

 

Nail head hit:

 "to receive hiFace you should send us 99 Euros + 9 Euros for S/H"
 "Please be adviced that shipping could take a while, as we are presently out of stock due to the large request by customers"


----------



## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I meant about "straight out of the box" is withouth burn-in or warm-up. 

 As for making a comparison, I did an a/b test with the Teralink-X. My method was to listen for a few different songs I am very familiar with using the Teralink-X before giving a try to the m2tech to get used once again to the sound of my system. So purely speaking, there was only a few seconds of gap that took me to switch the digital BNC cable (I used the same cable to make a worthwile comparison).

 Anyway, all of those precautions were not necessary since the difference was very easy to spot. I will go more in depth with the description of the sound later : I already have started writing a review of the 4 usb to spdif converters I currently own : EMU 0404 USB, Teralink-X, Musiland Monitor and m2tech Hiface._

 

Well, based on your feedback I decided to take the m2tech. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks


----------



## tosehee

I got the newer driver from m2tech that addresses the invalid INF issue. The driver now installs properly. The driver is NOT signed yet because it's still being tested and etc, but i got it to work in 'test mode' and test signing the signature.

 The sound quality seems to be little harsher than XP KS, but then this might be a placebo. so who knows.

 The driver was quite unstable in Windows 7 32bit mode, but the new driver is rock solid and does not have the same behavior that I had under 32 bit Windows 7. I've been playing the songs non-stop for past 30+ minutes. 

 I will update if anything changes.

 EDIT: I still hear the small 'clicks' when the music starts. Less louder than optical input, but still noticeable and apparent.


----------



## tosehee

Happy to report 64bit driver development is steady and getting more stable.

 Also, I was told that Mac Drivers are ready for "testing" in 15 days. So, I will report on that later as well.


----------



## K3cT

Is that 'click' noise present with the other converters you have, tosehee? I remember the crap one that used to come with my Zero had that very annoying issue.


----------



## regal

To me the Teralink-X looks superior to this as it has a clean power supply, I2S, pulse transformers, and doesn't require silly drivers. What am I missing that this M2Tech costs 3x as much? I would be concerned that one couldn't get bit-perfect output with these proprietary drivers. Has anyone tried the bit-perfect test? Is it ASIO?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To me the Teralink-X looks superior to this as it has a clean power supply, I2S, pulse transformers, and doesn't require silly drivers. What am I missing that this M2Tech costs 3x as much? I would be concerned that one couldn't get bit-perfect output with these proprietary drivers. Has anyone tried the bit-perfect test? Is it ASIO?_

 

There is an intersting white paper in the m2tech site about hiface converter here.
 Basically, it uses 2 high quality clocks and proprietary drivers to avoid using the not so clean clock of the computer.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an intersting white paper in the m2tech site about hiface converter here.
 Basically, it uses 2 high quality clocks and proprietary drivers to avoid using the not so clean clock of the computer._

 



 But a clock is only as good as its power supply and this is getting the 5V feed from the computer. I have seen some very extensive powersupply designs for clocks, look at what Tent Labs do, I think this will be an issue with the M2Tech.


----------



## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an intersting white paper in the m2tech site about hiface converter here.
 Basically, it uses 2 high quality clocks and proprietary drivers to avoid using the not so clean clock of the computer._

 

You prefer the mytech hiface over the Teralink-X, yes, as you write.
 How much do you prefer the MyTech?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gattari* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You prefer the mytech hiface over the Teralink-X, yes, as you write.
 How much do you prefer the MyTech?_

 

I wrote a comparative review of 4 usb to spdif converters here It will probably answer your question


----------



## DoYouRight

Bitperfect via asio or even clean power from non usb or clock. The Cryoparts Diverter has none of those and is $1000. Dont get confused in power hype, engineering is possible. Converting USB>SPDIF is no where near as power hungry as an actual DAC runnin on usb power alone.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that 'click' noise present with the other converters you have, tosehee? I remember the crap one that used to come with my Zero had that very annoying issue._

 

The click is little bit of noise that only occurs when the music starts. It's more noticeable for some songs than the others. If the music is already playing, the next song does not show this. It's only when you play the musics for the first time or stop/pause/restart the musics.


----------



## Tachikoma

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bitperfect via asio or even clean power from non usb or clock. The Cryoparts Diverter has none of those and is $1000. Dont get confused in power hype, engineering is possible. Converting USB>SPDIF is no where near as power hungry as an actual DAC runnin on usb power alone._

 

The point is that its a lot easier to get clean power by not taking a noisy 5V line from the PC (the power isn't a huge deal). Yes engineering is possible but why go out of your way to solve a problem you could have avoided entirely in the first place?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point is that its a lot easier to get clean power by not taking a noisy 5V line from the PC (the power isn't a huge deal). Yes engineering is possible but why go out of your way to solve a problem you could have avoided entirely in the first place?_

 

If this is such a big issue, I doubt Diverter with $1000 would go then route.


----------



## JayDee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point is that its a lot easier to get clean power by not taking a noisy 5V line from the PC..._

 

True, the 5V supply from a USB connection has a certain degree of noise, which is a function of the aggregate internal noise inside the computer, the coupling to other noise sources, as well as the characteristic noise of the computer's power supply. But a cheap external switching power supply is often no better, and in fact may be worse.

 The scope plot below below was taken directly from the V+ and ground terminals of a generic USB cable, connected to an equally unremarkable PC. The scope has a 1.1GHz bandwidth, and the probe used is an 2.5GHz active unit with very low loading and an extremely short ground connection.







 The next plot was taken under identical conditions, directly from the output connector of an external power supply provided as part of one of my competitor's USB to SPDIF products.






 The USB's supply has a slightly higher RMS noise value, mostly because of some subtle, low-frequency undulations - easy for a linear regulator to track. IMO the more egregious offender here is the external supply, because of the high-amplitude, high-frequency noise spikes riding on its DC. These spikes are much more difficult to filter out, and linear regulators won't touch them at all - their control loops simply lack the bandwidth to do so, and even if they did, the parasitic elements in the regulator would likely prevent nulling spikes like this. Keep in mind that a power supply isn't _inherently_ better merely because it is external, yet this concept seems to almost be a fundamental tenet of high-end audio. Granted, this external supply example isn't necessarily representative of all external supplies, but I wish people wouldn't automatically categorize a supply's performance simply as a function of being internal or external, because the assumptions are often erroneous.


----------



## glt

Very nice!. Thanks for sharing. First time I see real measurements of the usb power. Perhaps a laptop would be even cleaner?

 This sort of helps me understand why I couldn't hear differences betwee usb power and alkaline batteries with the musiland (digital out). The local regulators will further filter the noise and the predominant noise becomes that of the local regulators.


----------



## JayDee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps a laptop would be even cleaner?_

 

Certainly a legitimate question. Here's your answer (at least one of them; you'd really need to take quite a few such measurements before drawing any valid general conclusions).

 These plots were taken from an old Dell Latitude D600. All other conditions were identical to the ones from the measurements I posted last night.

 The first plot shows the USB Vbus running from battery power:






 This is indeed considerably better in all respects. The second plot shows the same laptop, but connected to the external AC supply brick:






 Here, you can clearly see the ripple from the AC supply riding on the +5V. What you can't see is that the entire DC level shifts as the Li-Ion charge controller goes about charging the batteries in burst mode - there's a charging phase and then a relaxation phase (which is done so that the battery voltage can be accurately read) about every half second or so. In practice this shouldn't be a big deal, as any linear regulator of even marginal quality would be able to track it. Even with these new anomalies, the laptop appears to be better than the PC I tested last night, and is still considerably better than the outboard supply that came with the other USB to SPDIF device.


----------



## DoYouRight

And for those of you who don't know, JayDee is the creator of the Diverter. Wish I could afford one, but JayDee would you think this is the best of the bunch under $500 in terms of USB>SPDIF?


----------



## JayDee

I honestly don't know much about this product, but even if I did I think it would be unprofessional of me, as a competitor, to comment on it.


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point is that its a lot easier to get clean power by not taking a noisy 5V line from the PC (the power isn't a huge deal). Yes engineering is possible but why go out of your way to solve a problem you could have avoided entirely in the first place?_

 

Exactly! There is nothing magical about USB power, its just a small power line from some switching PC power supply with added EMI/RFI/etc from the components of a given computer.

 The graphs above for external power supply are misleading by using a random switching power supply, instead of a decent _linear _power supply which are available on the cheap too (~20 bucks).

 USB power is acceptable for $100 or so devices, but if you're going with a high-end device, like Empirical Audio Off-Ramp, you expect there to be a dedicated/battery power. Unless of course, its a snake-oil product that claims some secret "magic sauce" inside that fixes all problems.


----------



## Edwood

Would really be nice if the M2Tech Hiface were available in the USA.


----------



## laevi

JayDee,

 What would the USB Vbus plot look like from a laptop running off of its external AC supply brick but without its battery inserted? 

 Would it be cleaner than the external brick + battery because the Li-Ion charge controller may be deactivated?


----------



## JayDee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly! There is nothing magical about USB power, its just a small power line..._

 

Correct, there's nothing special about the USB supply, but my whole point was that there's not necessarily anything special about an outboard supply, either. I wasn't comparing switchers to linear supplies, I was only addressing USB-derived power versus and external supply, and the mistaken assumption on the part of many the that latter is somehow inherently superior. It may be in some cases, but certainly not always, and this was just an illustration of that. I posted it because I'm frankly rather tired of hearing people simply parroting the idea about on forums that the 5V supply from USB is some dark and evil thing, and that no serious product could possibly use it - so here's some real data to show otherwise.

 Incidentally, the USB supply is capable of 500mA - more than enough for any USB to SPDIF conversion I could conceive of, and then some. There's no benefit to additional amperage capacity, unless it it has the side effect of yielding a lower output impedance, which _is_ beneficial.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The graphs above for external power supply are misleading by using a random switching power supply, instead of a decent linear power supply which are available on the cheap too (~20 bucks)._

 

I can't see how the graphs are in any way misleading. If I had taken a measurement of a switching supply and labeled it as a linear supply (or the reverse), _that_ would be misleading. What you see is what you get, and this was representative of the supply that was actually shipped with one of the USB to SPDIF converters on the market currently (and not an inexpensive one, either) - hardly "random." No deception here.

 EMI/RFI is an unavoidable consequence of the modern world, regardless of whether you choose a linear or switcher supply. A linear supply in the $20 range would likely offer poor filtering indeed for high-frequency interference.

 Said another way, my point here was simply that the individual implementation is what really matters, not the underlying design principle. Its is entirely possible to achieve excellent performance with linear, switching, internal, or external supplies. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, but in the hands of a good designer any combination of these can be made to work well.


----------



## JayDee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JayDee,

 What would the USB Vbus plot look like from a laptop running off of its external AC supply brick but without its battery inserted? 

 Would it be cleaner than the external brick + battery because the Li-Ion charge controller may be deactivated?_

 

Very likely yes, it would be cleaner. I've already indulged in too many measurements in this vein today, so I can't go take a measurement just now. If the battery were fully charged, the supply would also be cleaner in that case because the charging cycle would be completed.

 I wouldn't advocate that people go and take the batteries out of their laptops in order to listen, because this charger noise is relatively benign and easily tracked by any decent linear regulator. Also, it is low enough in frequency that it's outside of the audio passband, so even if you used the straight, unprocessed supply, this particular effect would likely be inaudible unless the charging were severe enough to current-starve the USB supply (unlikely).

 If we want to get into some tech details, I should note that there are linear Li-Ion charge controllers, and there are also switching ones. Just as in the case of supplies in general, the former type would tend to be quieter than the latter type. In the case of the measurements I made, I suspect the charge controller was a linear type because I didn't notice an increase in high-frequency noise when the charge controller was active.

 The "bad" components of the power supply we'd want to avoid in these plots would be the high-frequency hash, not the very low-frequency anomalies.


----------



## Tachikoma

The thing is you could measure the V+ on 10 computers and get 10 different looking plots (In the end, all USB power lines are derived from one massive switching PSU, and you could easily have plenty of variance in the quality of those). Is there any reason you couldn't have used something fancy like say, a super-reg to power your device?


----------



## JayDee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any reason you couldn't have used something fancy like say, a super-reg to power your device?_

 

It sounds like you got the impression that I'm powering the Diverter's circuitry from the USB V+ line directly, with no further conditioning. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact there are three very high performance regulators inside, and quite a bit of pre-regulator filtration as well. My point in these posts is simply that for something like USB to SPDIF conversion, the USB's V+ line is a perfectly workable _starting_ point, and if it's processed properly, it can be the basis of a truly high-performance power supply.

 I kind of feel like I'm hijacking this thread, which is supposed to be about the M2tech Hiface. That wasn't my intent, so I'm going to fade out here. I've written quite a lot about the Diverter (including the power supply) over here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/son...review-445553/ So if you have more questions about it, I think it would be most appropriate to continue the discussion over there.


----------



## DoYouRight

tosehee, any news on the x64 drivers and stability/sq? I am all for one when Windows Seven x64 is working flawlessly like XP.


----------



## Tachikoma

Quote:


 It sounds like you got the impression that I'm powering the Diverter's circuitry from the USB V+ line directly, with no further conditioning. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact there are three very high performance regulators inside, and quite a bit of pre-regulator filtration as well. My point in these posts is simply that for something like USB to SPDIF conversion, the USB's V+ line is a perfectly workable starting point, and if it's processed properly, it can be the basis of a truly high-performance power supply. 
 

Thats not what I was trying to imply, but I figured that there are better starting points than the USB +5V, and that with USB there is no "standard" starting point either. And well, this doesn't only apply to your product so I'll keep this post over here.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tosehee, any news on the x64 drivers and stability/sq? I am all for one when Windows Seven x64 is working flawlessly like XP._

 

I have gotten the newer driver from m2tech last Saturday, and ran the song non-stop. The stability has improved drastically, and I haven't seen the BSOD once so far. So, i think that' a good start.

 I have run into foobar unresponsive time to time, but I do not know whether that is related to the driver or not, but I reported this back to the m2tech. 

 I heard that they are getting a digital signature for the 64bit driver very soon and will be releasing a 1.02 with both 32/64 bit drivers very soon, and Mac drivers in 10+ days. I will be testing that driver as well, so I will notify with any updates.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats not what I was trying to imply, but I figured that there are better starting points than the USB +5V, and that with USB there is no "standard" starting point either. And well, this doesn't only apply to your product so I'll keep this post over here._

 

I think those plot pictures show more than thousand words. Laptop would be the most ideal solution, but even with PC, the power supplies seem to be more than okay for this type of device.


----------



## colinharding

So currently how much is this bad boy going to run in me dollars? I feel like someone early on said it was 88 euros or something. So plus shipping tosehee how much did you end up shelling out?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colinharding* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So currently how much is this bad boy going to run in me dollars? I feel like someone early on said it was 88 euros or something. So plus shipping tosehee how much did you end up shelling out?_

 

Depends on the option you've taken. I got it with BNC output and that adds about $11-15 euro. I can't recall exactly.

 But, all in all, I paid like $160. If you go with RCA, it would be $140 or so, I assume.


----------



## colinharding

And why, assuming you've got more connections on your DAC than a BNC, did you go with that output as opposed to the RCA one? Is there an inherent quality different between them or is it just simply a matter of opinion to which one each person prefers?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colinharding* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And why, assuming you've got more connections on your DAC than a BNC, did you go with that output as opposed to the RCA one? Is there an inherent quality different between them or is it just simply a matter of opinion to which one each person prefers?_

 

There is no true 75ohm rca connector. Also, my DAC provides BNC input. So, it's natural for me to go with true 75ohm BNC to BNC. You can get 75 ohm RCA cable, but that differs from connector type.


----------



## Edwood

Is there somewhere I can order the HiFace with BNC?

 -Ed


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there somewhere I can order the HiFace with BNC?

 -Ed_

 

sales@m2tech.biz and ask for BNC output option.


----------



## Edwood

Thanks, but no way to order online? Not really comfortable ordering over email with a credit card, and I doubt they have a USA phone number to call.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, but no way to order online? Not really comfortable ordering over email with a credit card, and I doubt they have a USA phone number to call._

 

You basically send an email and they send out the paypal to your email address. Once confirmed with payment, they ship it after it's built.

 It's not an online purchase per se like amazon, but you do not send your CC # either.


----------



## tosehee

I am happy to report that 1.02 beta driver that I am testing is very solid. No crash or BSOD so far. I just got a newer version that is now properly signed and have 1 more defect fixed. I foresee this will be released soon.

 1.02beta works in Foobar and Winamp using KS kernel.


----------



## EphemeralHope

there seems to be a lot of comparison with the musiland 01 - but this directly competes in the price range of musiland 02(which reviews seems to indicate are significantly better).... any comments on which one(M2tech of musiland 02) is better?


----------



## FauDrei

@tosehee:

 Since my setup is pretty much the same as yours - can you describe more in detail the perceived audio differences between Monitor 01 USD and M2tech converters?

 I am, at the moment, using Monitor 01 USD (XP with latest 1.0.5.0 drivers, BNC output) connected through externally powered USB hub and I'm very pleased with it. But if this M2tech "dongle" is so much better...

 Thanks


----------



## gattari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EphemeralHope* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there seems to be a lot of comparison with the musiland 01 - but this directly competes in the price range of musiland 02(which reviews seems to indicate are significantly better).... any comments on which one(M2tech of musiland 02) is better? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Next week I think for comparison with my 02 us


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@tosehee:

 Since my setup is pretty much the same as yours - can you describe more in detail the perceived audio differences between Monitor 01 USD and M2tech converters?

 I am, at the moment, using Monitor 01 USD (XP with latest 1.0.5.0 drivers, BNC output) connected through externally powered USB hub and I'm very pleased with it. But if this M2tech "dongle" is so much better...

 Thanks_

 

I don't have the Musiland to compare. It was done by slim.a. I have compared it directly to the optical output from the Mac Pro and BNC from M2tech. And to me, m2tech was definitely an upgrade path. To Musiland USD01? I have no clue. You can read up on the Slim.a, but then our DACs do the reclocking, so the differences would be marginal at best. But then again, at this point in game, how much are we spending to get that 'last' juice out of it to hear the 'magic' sound?

 So, it's really up to you. If you can sell musiland USD, I'd buy m2tech and do a honest comparison. Whichever you don't like, you can always sell it back. I chose m2tech mostly due to:

 1. Easier communication
 2. No need for extra USB Cable.
 3. BNC Option
 4. Two very stable oscillators for jitter management.
 5. Forth-coming Mac Driver (10 days or so now).


----------



## EphemeralHope

i've been seeing a lot of mention that a usb isn't needed - can anyone explain breifly why? I musta missed something -_-


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EphemeralHope* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i've been seeing a lot of mention that a usb isn't needed - can anyone explain breifly why? I musta missed something -_-_

 

M2Tech

 It connects directly to your USB hub.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You basically send an email and they send out the paypal to your email address. Once confirmed with payment, they ship it after it's built.

 It's not an online purchase per se like amazon, but you do not send your CC # either._

 

Ah, OK. That would work. Not as protected as ordering with a Credit card, but the Hiface isn't really overly expensive, either. 

 I was going to get the Musicland M01, but didn't want to deal with paying extra for a special non-crippled driver.

 -Ed


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, OK. That would work. Not as protected as ordering with a Credit card, but the Hiface isn't really overly expensive, either. 

 I was going to get the Musicland M01, but didn't want to deal with paying extra for a special non-crippled driver.

 -Ed_

 

Paying by Paypal you can use your credit card.

 There is no paid for driver or even different featured versions for the Musiland


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Paying by Paypal you can use your credit card.

 There is no paid for driver or even different featured versions for the Musiland_

 

Paying be Credit Card via PayPal is still not as protected as paying directly by Credit Card, unless you are OK with waiting for PayPal to resolve, or let your Credit Card company do a chargeback and have PayPal lock your account.

 Anyways, I read about there being a License Key required for the better driver for the Musicland. Is it free and requires a License Key? That's a little weird. Normally a License Key is for paid for apps. 

 -Ed


----------



## hawkhead

There is NO better driver 

 for version 1.0.5.0 a license key is required and is free


----------



## MikeW

mac book pro jitter has been mesured at 1600ps, so saying it's better then that is not saying much.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mac book pro jitter has been mesured at 1600ps, so saying it's better then that is not saying much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

where is this from? And is this directed at me? I am using Mac Pro, not Macbook Pro.

 edit:
 i asked the availability if the osx driver and here is the response.

  Quote:


 We're still on the way. I just can tell you that we're working on a kernel extension driver to avoid going thru the audio core which, as you probably know, implies two format conversions (integer-float and float-integer) and other processing which disrupt samples' integrity. More news ASAP.


----------



## wuwhere

I'm interested in this product as well. I would like to use it with my D10 (the D10 has a coax input). I'm thinking of BNC (M2Tech) to a BNC-coax adapter to my D10.

 I'm looking forward to more reviews/comparisons.


----------



## MikeW

Gordon rankin of wavelength audio took these measurements

 TAS1020 USB Adaptive Mode -- 2838ps
 TI PCM2706/7 I2S output -- 3433ps
 S/PDIF from Prism dScope III analyzer (really low output jitter!) -- 629ps
 S/PDIF from Mac Book Toslink -- 1607ps
 S/PDIF from Apple Airport Express Toslink -- 2418ps
 TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gordon rankin of wavelength audio took these measurements

 TAS1020 USB Adaptive Mode -- 2838ps
 TI PCM2706/7 I2S output -- 3433ps
 S/PDIF from Prism dScope III analyzer (really low output jitter!) -- 629ps
 S/PDIF from Mac Book Toslink -- 1607ps
 S/PDIF from Apple Airport Express Toslink -- 2418ps
 TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps_

 

TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps 

 what product is this/


----------



## rmask

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps 

 what product is this/_

 

... "gordon"..."wavelength"... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS. I'm a bit skeptical about the these spdif devices (sure 100eur is fine, but the expensive ones are IMHO true SXXXX OXX), as *I* did not hear much differences with my mid-range gear (I've compared x-meridian spdif, musiland o1 usd spdif, belcanto usblink bnc>spdif). I've also had the chance to listen to the empirical off-ramp (the m-audio transit mod) vs original 60eur transit and was completely unimpressed as most of the difference came from the empirical supplied SRC (FREE) upsampling plugin. As long as they were in bit perfect mode, they sounded pretty much the same to *my ears*...


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gordon rankin of wavelength audio took these measurements

 TAS1020 USB Adaptive Mode -- 2838ps
 TI PCM2706/7 I2S output -- 3433ps
 S/PDIF from Prism dScope III analyzer (really low output jitter!) -- 629ps
 S/PDIF from Mac Book Toslink -- 1607ps
 S/PDIF from Apple Airport Express Toslink -- 2418ps
 TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps_

 

S/PDIF from Prism dScope III analyzer (really low output jitter!) -- 629ps
 TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode -- 78.2ps

 I find it weird that the TAS1020 USB is so much better than a professional analyzer. 
 It is a little bit misleading to compare the spdif out of the Prism and whatever jitter measurement of the TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode. 
 Also, I am curious to know which device was used to measure the jitter of the TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode since most equipement cannot get below 500ps at the spdif (stereophile, ...)

 Anyway, it seems that both units that are using the TAS1020 USB Asynchronous Mode are good at jitter measurements :
Stereophile: Ayre Acoustics QB-9 USB DAC
Stereophile: Wavelength Cosecant v3 USB digital/analog converter


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rmask* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... "gordon"..."wavelength"... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS. I'm a bit skeptical about the these spdif devices (sure 100eur is fine, but the expensive ones are IMHO true SXXXX OXX), as *I* did not hear much differences with my mid-range gear (I've compared x-meridian spdif, musiland o1 usd spdif, belcanto usblink bnc>spdif). I've also had the chance to listen to the empirical off-ramp (the m-audio transit mod) vs original 60eur transit and was completely unimpressed as most of the difference came from the empirical supplied SRC (FREE) upsampling plugin. As long as they were in bit perfect mode, they sounded pretty much the same to *my ears*..._

 

This is completely normal, don't be surprised if you won't tell the difference in a DBT. Just because something has better jitter ratings, doesn't mean it will sound better over something that already sounds good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Stuff like off-ramp and wavelength are to squeeze the last 1% of sound quality, and only a top high end system will make these differences worthwhile. Nowadays, its not that hard to get a good digital output for 90+% of hifi systems. Of course there still be systems that demand the latest and greatest.


----------



## crhodes64

Folks

 I've just spent all morning trying to purchase the hiFace fro delivery to the UK. So far I've emailed everyone at M2tech as well as tried to call their phone number multiple times, but this just seems to ring out.

 Any advice? Are they still in business? Do they sell via any reseller here in the UK?

 Many thanks


 Colin


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crhodes64* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Folks

 I've just spent all morning trying to purchase the hiFace fro delivery to the UK. So far I've emailed everyone at M2tech as well as tried to call their phone number multiple times, but this just seems to ring out.

 Any advice? Are they still in business? Do they sell via any reseller here in the UK?

 Many thanks


 Colin



_

 

As far as I know, they have a reseller only for Italy. 

 Usually, they respond relatively quickly to emails but since it is a very small company it is not surprising that no one is responding. I would start worrying if you don't get any answer by tomorrow.


----------



## tosehee

I also little wodner about the method of measurement.

 I can see that you can attach the device with SPDIF. But how do you test the async usb?


----------



## crhodes64

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as I know, they have a reseller only for Italy. 

 Usually, they respond relatively quickly to emails but since it is a very small company it is not surprising that no one is responding. I would start worrying if you don't get any answer by tomorrow._

 


 Thanks Slim.a - They've responded now and I've ordered it.

 Hope it works as I expect - I'm planning on plugging it into a DACmagic box from Cambridge Audio and squirting 24/96 at it. Anyone any comments on my planned rig?

 24/96 FLAC - Monkey Audio - PC - USB - M2Tech hiFace - electrical RCA SPDIF - Cambridge Audio DACmagic - Phono - AVI PreAMP - ATC SCM 50A active speakers ( Iknow no Headphones yet but I'm working on that).

 Main concern is what the DAC ig going to do to 24/96 stuff, it says that it upsamples everything to 24/192khz, any thoughts?

 Cheers

 Colin


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crhodes64* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hope it works as I expect - I'm planning on plugging it into a DACmagic box from Cambridge Audio and squirting 24/96 at it. Anyone any comments on my planned rig?

 24/96 FLAC - Monkey Audio - PC - USB - M2Tech hiFace - electrical RCA SPDIF - Cambridge Audio DACmagic - Phono - AVI PreAMP - ATC SCM 50A active speakers ( Iknow no Headphones yet but I'm working on that).

 Main concern is what the DAC ig going to do to 24/96 stuff, it says that it upsamples everything to 24/192khz, any thoughts?_

 

Do not worry - DacMagic benefits significantly from good SPDIF input. I've had excellent results with Monitor 01 USD and DacMagic. According to hiFace (p)reviews here - it should do at least as good with DacMagic.

 Yes, DacMagic accepts up to 24/96 and upsampes anything accepted to 24/192 and then converts it to audio. It does it good - nothing to worry about again. Very clean and detailed.


----------



## joost_db

I'm considering ordering a hiFace to feed 24/96 into my DAC. 

 However one thing worries me from a design point of view. It seems like (with a heavy coaxial cable attached to it) it would put a lot of stress on the USB socket of my PC. Is this an issue I should be worried about? Are people using this with a USB extension cable? Is there an audible SQ difference?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *joost_db* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm considering ordering a hiFace to feed 24/96 into my DAC. 

 However one thing worries me from a design point of view. It seems like (with a heavy coaxial cable attached to it) it would put a lot of stress on the USB socket of my PC. Is this an issue I should be worried about? Are people using this with a USB extension cable? Is there an audible SQ difference?_

 

A heavy cable might put some stress on the unit, but it doesn't seem to affect its perfomance. As for using a USB extension cable, it might very well decrease the sound quality of the device. You might want to write to m2tech to ask about using an extension, they are usually very helpful.


----------



## joost_db

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A heavy cable might put some stress on the unit, but it doesn't seem to affect its perfomance. As for using a USB extension cable, it might very well decrease the sound quality of the device. You might want to write to m2tech to ask about using an extension, they are usually very helpful._

 

I just read the following in their FAQ:

  Quote:


 21)May I use an USB joint cable with hiFace?
 Yes, but attention must be paid to cable’s length: over 4 meters the performance of an
 USB connection worsen and it may happens that 192kHz file transfer is impeded. 
 

So seems if I get a short USB extension cable this should not cause any problems... good news.

 On a second note, my DAC has a RCA SPDIF input. Would it make any sense to go for the BNC version of the hiFace and then use a BNC-RCA digital cable? I guess the RCA would be the bottleneck and this wouldnt have any SQ improvements?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *joost_db* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On a second note, my DAC has a RCA SPDIF input. Would it make any sense to go for the BNC version of the hiFace and then use a BNC-RCA digital cable? I guess the RCA would be the bottleneck and this wouldnt have any SQ improvements?_

 

I think that BNC is useful only if you have a BNC to BNC cable and a BNC input in your DAC. Otherwise, there might not be a significant improvement in ordering a unit with BNC ... unless you intend to upgrade your DAC and digital cable later


----------



## tosehee

Having BNC connector allows you to have a true 75ohm. there is no conversion of ohm with RCA. I'd go with BNC and get BNC to RCA connector for now. If you ever decided to upgrade your DAC that has BNC, you do not need to buy anothrer hiface.. 

 On top of this, BNC to RCA connector is like $3.00.


----------



## tosehee

Little update on the 1.02 driver.

 The 1.01 driver seems to have some stability issue with windows 7 32/64bits. I will be getting 1.02 driver that are updated to have better stability.

 On top of this, this version will have a direct sound support up to 96khz. It supports 192khz too, but there are some stability issue that right now. I will update along with OSX drivers in coming weeks as I continue to stress test this. i will report with DS vs. KS sound comparison (if any).


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Little update on the 1.02 driver.

 The 1.01 driver seems to have some stability issue with windows 7 32/64bits. I will be getting 1.02 driver that are updated to have better stability.

 On top of this, this version will have a direct sound support up to 96khz. It supports 192khz too, but there are some stability issue that right now. I will update along with OSX drivers in coming weeks as I continue to stress test this. i will report with DS vs. KS sound comparison (if any)._

 

The support for DS is good news. Do you know when they will issue there 1.02 driver ?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The support for DS is good news. Do you know when they will issue there 1.02 driver ?_

 

I can't predict their schedule, but from the sign of stability of the driver, I can see it coming out very soon. I think they want to add more features into it before releasing it, like DS support and possibly some form of OSX driver.

 Don't quote me on the latter part though. While it's progressing along the line, I don't know much about the actual dev progress.

 If I hear anything, I will update here. I should be getting a 1.02 driver very soon, so I will update about the DS and other features and the stability issues in Windows 7.


----------



## Patu

DS support is great news. Shouldn't it work with youtube videos and stuff like that when it supports DS?


----------



## slim.a

I asked Marco yesterday at m2tech to send me the beta pre-release drivers to try on my system and after a short try yesterday night, it seems that they are working fine with the added support of DS drivers.

 First, with KS, the 1.02 drivers seem to have solve an annoying visual bug specific with foobar 0.8.3 where the time tracker was always stuck at the beginning of the song. 

 As for the DS drivers, they worked fine on my Windows XP Media Center (32bits). I tried playing music and videos with VLC, Windows Media Player and the Windows Media Center interface and it worked fine. 

 While the DS drivers are not as good as KS, it is still the best sound I got using Windows Media Player.

 It also works with youtube.


----------



## tosehee

I can attest to this. DS works out fine as a default sound card.

 However, DS support is only limited to 32bit OS right now. 64bit OS needs special signature, and their beta drivers do not have yet.

 I am sure it'll be signed with proper signature and etc when it gets released.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked Marco yesterday at m2tech to send me the beta pre-release drivers to try on my system and after a short try yesterday night, it seems that they are working fine with the added support of DS drivers.

 First, with KS, the 1.02 drivers seem to have solve an annoying visual bug specific with foobar 0.8.3 where the time tracker was always stuck at the beginning of the song. 

 As for the DS drivers, they worked fine on my Windows XP Media Center (32bits). I tried playing music and videos with VLC, Windows Media Player and the Windows Media Center interface and it worked fine. 

 While the DS drivers are not as good as KS, it is still the best sound I got using Windows Media Player.

 It also works with youtube._


----------



## tosehee

1.02 driver is officially released.


----------



## Ektalog

I am looking for one that does this for a friend. He wants the closest to audiophile quality that also can work with Media Center (and variants) for movies, USB type. The only good choice I currently see is the M-Audio Transit USB. M2Tech does not even mention HT audio but then again, who knows...

 For myself (audio only), the M2tech HiFace is most appealing and the Musiland 01 USD is intriguing (perhaps with tweaks). The basic HRT Streamer could also be in the run if I decide not to pursue 24/192...but it really would need to be superior in sound (at this price point, of course).

 Any pointers will be appreciated.


----------



## momomo6789

hiface also has a waiting line . ordered on the 11th 

 Hello David,

 sorry for the delay: we presently are scheduled for November 20th, but we're working to shorten this lead time. This delay is not our will, as you can imagine: it's the suppliers who are heaviliy backordered due to the crisis stop and the following reprise of the market...

 Marco 

 O_o


----------



## Patu

So with the new 1.02 drivers I can listen to music with foobar and if I want, pause/stop the music and check a random youtube video (with sounds) in between? Or do I have to do some configurations in control panel to enable sounds in youtube? 

 Ease of use is something I'm also looking for.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So with the new 1.02 drivers I can listen to music with foobar and if I want, pause/stop the music and check a random youtube video (with sounds) in between? Or do I have to do some configurations in control panel to enable sounds in youtube? 

 Ease of use is something I'm also looking for._

 

Yes, with the 1.02 drivers, you can do that. 
 You just have to set (once and for all) the m2tech as your main soundcard in the audio control panel. Then it works as any other sound card.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, with the 1.02 drivers, you can do that. 
 You just have to set (once and for all) the m2tech as your main soundcard in the audio control panel. Then it works as any other sound card._

 

I guess it's finally time to order one. Of course I'm late now when there's so many orders in line before me.


----------



## dszabi

The HiFace is on its way to my me, but in the mean time I'm wondering what could be the best way to connect it to my stereo. I can think of at least 2 different approach.

 Option 1: the "classic" method, plug it into an USB port on my computer, then connect to external DAC with a long (3-4 m) digital interconnect.

 Option 2: plug the RCA output of the HiFace directly into the RCA input of my DAC. In this case, there is no digital interconnect (only an RCA-RCA connector), but I would need to use an USB extension cable between computer and HiFace.

 Any idea if option 2 has any benefit? I'm not an expert, but I would expect that sound would be better without a digital interconnect cable. And I could save some money, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm aware of the issue with too long USB extension cables not being able to transfer 192kHz data.


----------



## tosehee

I have no clue what you are referring to with option 2.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dszabi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HiFace is on its way to my me, but in the mean time I'm wondering what could be the best way to connect it to my stereo. I can think of at least 2 different approach.

 Option 1: the "classic" method, plug it into an USB port on my computer, then connect to external DAC with a long (3-4 m) digital interconnect.

 Option 2: plug the RCA output of the HiFace directly into the RCA input of my DAC. In this case, there is no digital interconnect (only an RCA-RCA connector), but I would need to use an USB extension cable between computer and HiFace.

 Any idea if option 2 has any benefit? I'm not an expert, but I would expect that sound would be better without a digital interconnect cable. And I could save some money, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm aware of the issue with too long USB extension cables not being able to transfer 192kHz data._


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dszabi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Option 2: plug the RCA output of the HiFace directly into the RCA input of my DAC. In this case, there is no digital interconnect (only an RCA-RCA connector), but I would need to use an USB extension cable between computer and HiFace._

 

I suspect this would not work well: your RCA-RCA connector still have to comply to 75ohm rule. You would most probably have a lot of strong reflections/dropouts. Beter solution would be:

 Option 3: disassemble hiFace, change male A USB connector for female B and incorporate it into your DAC, solder SPDIF out directly to SPDIF inside your dac.


----------



## dszabi

This is what I mean (see picture): no interconnect cable, only a male-to-male connector between HiFace output and DAC input.






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no clue what you are referring to with option 2._


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dszabi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is what I mean (see picture): no interconnect cable, only a male-to-male connector between HiFace output and DAC input.




_

 

There is no true 75ohm rca connector. You are probably better off using BNC to BNC and use the 75ohm cable throughout for maximum performance. With that said, are you going to plug this thing right next to hiface and your DAC? 

 If not, you'd need the USB extension cable, and I think that basically negates any positives that this plug provides. Get the Hiface with BNC output. I think that's the best option for you.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dszabi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HiFace is on its way to my me, but in the mean time I'm wondering what could be the best way to connect it to my stereo. I can think of at least 2 different approach.

 Option 1: the "classic" method, plug it into an USB port on my computer, then connect to external DAC with a long (3-4 m) digital interconnect.

 Option 2: plug the RCA output of the HiFace directly into the RCA input of my DAC. In this case, there is no digital interconnect (only an RCA-RCA connector), but I would need to use an USB extension cable between computer and HiFace.

 Any idea if option 2 has any benefit? I'm not an expert, but I would expect that sound would be better without a digital interconnect cable. And I could save some money, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm aware of the issue with too long USB extension cables not being able to transfer 192kHz data._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no true 75ohm rca connector. You are probably better off using BNC to BNC and use the 75ohm cable throughout for maximum performance. With that said, are you going to plug this thing right next to hiface and your DAC? 

 If not, you'd need the USB extension cable, and I think that basically negates any positives that this plug provides. Get the Hiface with BNC output. I think that's the best option for you._

 

I agree with tosehee, one of the benefits of this unit is that you get rid of the usb cable. 
 However, if you use an extension cable (of unknown quality) and you use an rca to rca connector which is not a true 75 ohm, the results might be unpredictable ... but it shouldn't stop you from trying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Also, if you are looking for an affordable digital cable, Blue Jeans Cable make some nice affordable cables here.


----------



## tosehee

BTW, I was told that OSX driver is compiled and only USB communication protocol needs to be implemented. Should be ready for testing in 1 or 2 business days. I will report with more findings once I get the beta driver to test out.


----------



## Patu

Well I finally ordered one to try out. I hope this solves the dropout problems I've been having with internal sound cards.


----------



## argentum

Patu how lengthy will the waiting list be? I'm interested myself, but if it is too long I might revisit this idea later or choose another product.


----------



## Patu

Marco told me it'd be ~20 days now until the product ships. He also told me that he tries to speed things up but I'm prepared for a long wait.


----------



## argentum

Did you pay now or will you do it when it is ready for shipping?


----------



## momomo6789

i wouldnt hold his word to be truth he said he would have mine shipped out on the 8th now its pushed back to the 20th 40 days =/


----------



## xdanny

Does anyone know if the hiFace is capable of bit perfect output?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xdanny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know if the hiFace is capable of bit perfect output?_

 

Do you think this thread would be this long if it couldn't?


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you think this thread would be this long if it couldn't?_

 

No need for sarcasm, a simple "yes" would have been enough or you could have simply ignored my question. I've been on longer threads that basically say nothing.

 Nonetheless, thank you...


----------



## FauDrei

Sorry, wasn't meant to be rude...

 Yes. Even at 24/192.


----------



## xdanny

No problem!!


----------



## Patu

I paid mine already. Through PayPal. Marco told me that I have to pay in advance if I want to get in line. I hope that 20 days it is. This is already very long wait.


----------



## yossi126

Seems that tweek geek is stocking it ''mid november'' at 150$/180 for bnc.
 I have a few questions:
 1. How this will synchronise with my nos dac, or do to the signal?

 2. I have a true digital cable, am i better off with bnc?

 3. Will i be able to play sound in pc games? What about winamp and bsplayer? What about regular web video-streaming that are not youtube?

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yossi126* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems that tweek geek is stocking it ''mid november'' at 150$/180 for bnc.
 I have a few questions:
 1. How this will synchronise with my nos dac, or do to the signal?

 2. I have a true digital cable, am i better off with bnc?

 3. Will i be able to play sound in pc games? What about winamp and bsplayer? What about regular web video-streaming that are not youtube?

 Thanks in advance._

 

1. You will have the most benefits out of this device since you are not reclocking the signal to fight the jitters in the first place.

 2. What's true digital cable? Coax or optical you mean? BNC is better since their adapters are true 75ohm and there is no loss of signal due to incorrect impedance mismatching. Whether this is audible or not, that's another story.

 3. Yes


----------



## dszabi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, if you are looking for an affordable digital cable, Blue Jeans Cable make some nice affordable cables here._

 

Thanks for the cable tip, I'll need something soon! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But haven't you said somewhere that the Belden ain't that great?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dszabi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the cable tip, I'll need something soon! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But haven't you said somewhere that the Belden ain't that great?_

 

While I have found that the Stereovox XV2 and Hifi Cables Sobek clearly outperform the Belden cable, they are priced many times higher.

 Out of the budget digital cables I tried (Belden, Canare, Belkin), the Belden was the best. If you want a better performance you have to aim for something that costs at least $150/meter in my experience.


----------



## Lantis

Took the bite and ordered one today. Marco of M2Tech is really helpful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He told me France is going to have its stock next week, hopefully our items should be shipped next week also


----------



## hughwi

I am currently using a Hagermann HAGUSB USB to SPDIF converter as found here with my laptop running windows 7 64bit, and was wondering if anyone has used both? I am strongly tempted to order this with BNC connections and try it anyway!


----------



## totozero53

Hi all, 1st time poster here but long time reader 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

 Got word form Marco that Hiface units shipment is scheduled for Saturday.
 I ordered mine long time agoooooo (october 19) so I don't know delivery time for people who've just ordered.

 I'm currently using a musiland 02 us as usb/spdif converter, I'm really pleased with it (got a musiland 01 usd tho, the 02 us sounds definitively better).

 I'll let you know when I'll receive the hiface which unit I prefer in my rig.

 And FIY, Marco told me he's planning on releasing a "wasapi-like" driver anytime soon.

 C'ya.


----------



## Mike Portnoy

Hello! I have Musiland USD01, and i love it.

 However, will i be happy with hiface? (more than with musiland?)

 The Dac will be AudioGD dac19MK3.

 Thanks from Brazil!

 Fernando.

 *sorry the bad english.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mike Portnoy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello! I have Musiland USD01, and i love it.

 However, will i be happy with hiface? (more than with musiland?)

 The Dac will be AudioGD dac19MK3.

 Thanks from Brazil!

 Fernando.

 *sorry the bad english._

 

Hi, I have the audio-gd dac-19mk3 too and I prefer the Hiface over the musiland. 
 By the way, you can read my review here where I compare the 2 units.


----------



## Mike Portnoy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, I have the audio-gd dac-19mk3 too and I prefer the Hiface over the musiland. 
 By the way, you can read my review here where I compare the 2 units._

 

Thank you!

 Fernando.


----------



## educator

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *totozero53* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got word form Marco that Hiface units shipment is scheduled for Saturday.
 I ordered mine long time agoooooo (october 19) so I don't know delivery time for people who've just ordered.
 I_

 

I ordered a Hiface 10 days ago too. I had been reasonably happy using my 0404 usb until it fell on the floor and broke. I am hoping to hear an improvement when the Hiface arrives. For now, my rig is silent
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope mine is included in the current shipment


----------



## Lantis

any feedback from the guys who received theirs?

 I got a bad news from Marco, mine will be shipped December 8-10.


----------



## Patu

I know there was some pictures of HiFace innards online at some Italian forum but is there any way to get them here? I couldn't download them because it required registration.


----------



## glt

They are here: M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - diyAudio


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are here: M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - diyAudio_

 

As I said in my previous post, you can't open them without registering to the forum. I have no intentions to do that so if someone could kindly post the pictures here.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are here: M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - diyAudio_

 

You have to register in order to view the pictures.
 Can you upload them in this thread?

 Thanks.


----------



## glt

I thought you were referring to some italian forum... Anyways, I hope it is not against any kind of forum rules...


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought you were referring to some italian forum... Anyways, I hope it is not against any kind of forum rules..._

 

That was my mistake. I remembered the forum wrong.

 Thanks for the pics.


----------



## slim.a

It looks like from the pictures that the hiface is using two different clocks for 44.1 and 48 multiples. It is amazing how much is stacked in such a small enclosure. 

 Anybody knows if m2tech is planning to release new products ? I think that a product based on the hiface technology which uses an outboard enclosure and a separate power supply could be interesting ... Just a thought


----------



## Patu

Yesterday I quickly switched back to my ESI Juli@ which is connected to DAC19Mk3 with Blue Jeans optical cable. HiFace is connected to coaxial input with Belden digital cable. I only did a very short listening this time so don't take anything I say too seriously. These are initial impressions. Before testing I thought that there wouldn't be any differences or at least I couldn't hear them... I was wrong. Even with a very short comparison, the difference was quite easy to hear actually. 

 HiFace has clearly blacker background with less "stuff" going on over the sound. Everything was more clear and instruments were easier to separate. More air between the notes. What stroke me most was the difference in dynamics. I tested with few tracks including deep bass notes and there was huge difference. It sounded like Juli@ would lack the deepest bass completely compared to HiFace. I remember that Bel Canto USBLink had also very clear sound but the problem was that the upper register was harsh, digital sounding. With HiFace this problem is gone. Upper register is pleasure to listen to. 

 If I would have to describe the sound difference with picture, this would be quite a good one: 






*Please don't care what this picture means/measures originally but try to image these two lines as HiFace's and Juli@'s sound.* Upper one is HiFace and lower one is Juli@. This picture shows well how HiFace is able to do quicker turns and it's reaction times are much faster when Juli@ takes it easier and is slower in it's reactions and movements. If this picture would be perfect, the upper lines peaks would also be on higher and lower level than the peaks of the lower line. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry if this picture confused someone. IMO it's good to picture the differences.


----------



## lindamar

I received my hiface a few days ago (BNC connector) and beta drivers for Mac along with it.

 Can say that mac drivers do work with Snow Leopard 10.6 , but I did not manage to make it work with Leopard 10.5 though. It looks promising , and sounds good too !. 
 , 2.4
 My laptop is a Macbook intel (white old model) 2.4 GHz Inter Core 2 Duo.

 Kudos to M2Tech !


----------



## tosehee

First async adapter with mac driver support, I say.. Well, except the ones that do not need the driver, that is.


----------



## dburna

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lindamar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received my hiface a few days ago (BNC connector) and beta drivers for Mac along with it.

 Can say that mac drivers do work with Snow Leopard 10.6 , but I did not manage to make it work with Leopard 10.5 though. It looks promising , and sounds good too !. 
 , 2.4
 My laptop is a Macbook intel (white old model) 2.4 GHz Inter Core 2 Duo.

 Kudos to M2Tech !_

 

I have been unable to get this to work with Leopard 10.5 either. My MacBook (last generation) can not seem to see this device. Is this the same problem you found, Lindamar? I don't have 10.6, so I can't use this until the driver is fixed.

 I have reported this bug to M2Tech and they are supposed to be working on it.

 Thanks, -dB


----------



## lindamar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dburna* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been unable to get this to work with Leopard 10.5 either. My MacBook (last generation) can not seem to see this device. Is this the same problem you found, Lindamar? I don't have 10.6, so I can't use this until the driver is fixed.

 I have reported this bug to M2Tech and they are supposed to be working on it.

 Thanks, -dB_

 

Absolutely !, exactly the same issue. It has been reported to Marco, but no solution yet. The problem is that the Audio MIDI Setup application fails to see the HiFace when connected. 

 Some apps like Winamp (running on Paralells / Windows XP , Leopard 10.5) does recognize the HiFace whenever you connect it to the Mac, but you will not have sound out of it though.

 best regards


----------



## momomo6789

they really need to step up and fix their drivers still no DS for win7 64bit .


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_they really need to step up and fix their drivers still no DS for win7 64bit ._

 

This is the reason why I'm still using XP. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But seriously, this thing sounds awesome. It really brought something new in to my music. I just put FS add on our local forums for two of my sound cards. I may keep one of them, just in case.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seriously, this thing sounds awesome. It really brought something new in to my music. I just put FS add on our local forums for two of my sound cards._

 

Do you represent M2Tech or are you maybe somehow connected to them? It feels like it.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/wh...8/#post6126539


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the reason why I'm still using XP. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, this thing sounds awesome. It really brought something new in to my music. I just put FS add on our local forums for two of my sound cards. I may keep one of them, just in case._

 

Your using this device to feed your other gear?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

has anyone tried this with OSX 10.4? i have the original Macbook Pro, and i havent upgraded to either leopard yet. Though if this only works with 10.6 it might push me over the edge to go get it for 30 bucks...


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you represent M2Tech or are you maybe somehow connected to them? It feels like it.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/wh...8/#post6126539



_

 

You got me. Though my positive feedback isn't comparable to your praising in the other thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your using this device to feed your other gear?_

 

Yes of course. This little device has only one function. To transfer the digital signal from computer to DAC. It can't be used without "other gear".


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the reason why I'm still using XP. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, this thing sounds awesome. It really brought something new in to my music. I just put FS add on our local forums for two of my sound cards. I may keep one of them, just in case._

 

It sounds awesome, no doubt, better than anything I've tried to day. Still curious how it would fare against more expensive solutions like one from Empirical or that shiny metal Diverter.


----------



## doctorcilantro

You were able to order one with BNC? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lindamar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received my hiface a few days ago (BNC connector) and beta drivers for Mac along with it.

 Can say that mac drivers do work with Snow Leopard 10.6 , but I did not manage to make it work with Leopard 10.5 though. It looks promising , and sounds good too !. 
 , 2.4
 My laptop is a Macbook intel (white old model) 2.4 GHz Inter Core 2 Duo.

 Kudos to M2Tech !_


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes of course. This little device has only one function. To transfer the digital signal from computer to DAC. It can't be used without "other gear"._

 

Sorry, I kind of missed that mistake. I wanted to ask what gear you were using with it. 
 So:
 Your using this device to feed your other gear, such as?
 It is just a USB to S/Pdif converter so you have to have an external gear ofcourse, I was just curious as to what you were using with it.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I kind of missed that mistake. I wanted to ask what gear you were using with it. 
 So:
 Your using this device to feed your other gear, such as?
 It is just a USB to S/Pdif converter so you have to have an external gear ofcourse, I was just curious as to what you were using with it._

 

You can see my other gear in my signature. That's the signal chain. Only now there's HiFace between FLAC and DAC19Mk3.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can see my other gear in my signature. That's the signal chain. Only now there's HiFace between FLAC and DAC19Mk3. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I understand where it goes in the signal chain. Thx.


----------



## fenixdown110

Right after FLAC and before the DAC19MK3. It runs off the computer usb to the dac.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes. He just said that.


----------



## fenixdown110

You had a "don't" in front of understand earlier.


----------



## ROBSCIX

What is there to understand, a USB to S/Pdif converter.
 I don't relay on what people write in their specs's as they change often for some or some like to post
 the gear they want as opposed to the gear they have. Sometimes it is easier to ask, to verify what is being used.
 Thanks for the information.


----------



## slackman

Just received my hiFace today.
 Hooked it up to my Lavry DA10 and have been listening to music through it for 12 hours non stop now.
 It's amazingly good!
 Used an Edirol UA-1EX before (bitperfect output, asio driver) and thought the DA10 would clean up any jitter comming from the Edirol, so I didn't expect any difference but just wanted to be sure so ordered a hiFace anyhow.
 Then to my big surprise, the difference in soundquality is HUGE!
 Everything (soundstage / depth, tonal balance, detail, realism, speed, dynamics, blackness, etc) is significantly better. Apparent immediately.
 I was allready very impressed by the DA10 fed by the Edirol, but now I have no words 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So this one comes highly recomended! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks Marco from m2tech! (And thanks Dan Lavry!)


----------



## fenixdown110

Well back on topic. Are you planning on getting one?

 Will the Hiface work with any bit-exact output then? So Kernal, ASIO, and wasapi would all work?


----------



## ROBSCIX

So is the concensus by owners that this digital source provides a higher quality digital source then others?
 Just want to be clear on this.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Many are claiming it doesn't matter what source you use when pushing to a Sabre DAC which their propriety jitter reduction. Many also completely disagree with this. 

 I just try to stick with BNC whenever possible vs. Toslink and RCA Coax. 

 I think Gordon Rankin and others who use async USB are on the right track, especially given that WASAPI is an option now.

 Happy holidays all!

 (P.S. still haven't heard back from HiFace - since I'm in the States I'll prbably just grab a cheaper BNC Musiland unit)


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will the Hiface work with any bit-exact output then? So Kernel, ASIO, and wasapi would all work?_

 

yep, good question! KS on XP, and WASAPI exclusive on W7? are the drivers WaveRT compliant on W7?

 it's all automatically bit-matched/bit-perfect if I get it right? I might grab one when the supply matches the demand, within a few months hopefully.


----------



## momomo6789

Their are no Win7 64x DS DRIVERS making this a very expensive paper weight atm.


----------



## slackman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many are claiming it doesn't matter what source you use when pushing to a Sabre DAC which their propriety jitter reduction. Many also completely disagree with this. 

 I just try to stick with BNC whenever possible vs. Toslink and RCA Coax. 

 I think Gordon Rankin and others who use async USB are on the right track, especially given that WASAPI is an option now.

 Happy holidays all!

 (P.S. still haven't heard back from HiFace - since I'm in the States I'll prbably just grab a cheaper BNC Musiland unit)_

 

About the jitter, that's what I thought too about the DA10, that the source jitter doesn't matter.
 But my ears tell me a very different story.
 Both UA-1EX and hiFace are bit-perfect, so the only difference is the jitter.

 As for BNC vs RCA, Marco from m2tech told me that if the DAC has a BNC input go with BNC hiFace, if the DAC has RCA input go with RCA hiFace, as BNC to RCA does bad things.

 As for the Musiland. I've never heard it but I read that though it does do async usb, it has a terrible clock that is never 44.1 or 48 / 88.2 / 96, but allways a % off. I wouldn't want such a thing as a source myself.
 Also in another thread the hiFace compared favourably to the Musiland.


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Their are no Win7 64x DS DRIVERS making this a very expensive paper weight atm._

 

I almost forgot about that. Damn. I'll have to wait until they release a driver for Win7 64 bit.


----------



## KevM2

Is there a direct sound driver for Vista 64 bit? My computer is not detecting it through DS mode.


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KevM2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a direct sound driver for Vista 64 bit? My computer is not detecting it through DS mode._

 

No. That's what we're complaining about.


----------



## slackman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I almost forgot about that. Damn. I'll have to wait until they release a driver for Win7 64 bit._

 

They have 64 bit drivers for Windows 7 allready.

 This is what it sais on the website about the driver:
 "Latest version: 1.02

 Compatibility extended to Windows 7 64bits
 Direct Sound operation mode enabled
 Fixed some minor click when going into play
 Stability increased with Windows 7 32bits
 Driver certification"


----------



## fenixdown110

I stand corrected then.


----------



## momomo6789

nope still no ds in win7 with those drivers.


----------



## fenixdown110

That's perhaps compatibility for bit-exact output.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's perhaps compatibility for bit-exact output._

 

No.

 DS in 64bit requires the certification from MS, and that's really costly. That's why m2tech is not going that route.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No.

 DS in 64bit requires the certification from MS, and that's really costly. That's why m2tech is not going that route._

 

What!?!?!? You have to pay a tax to Microsoft in order to have certified drivers?
 That's just not helping anyone except themselves by making profits and controling the market.
 This whole driver issue about the HiFace or other gear is not helping IMO.
 I wish technology could evolve faster without having the trouble to depend on complex rules in order to have a fully functioning program or device.


----------



## tosehee

punk-guy182.

 That's just from the horse's mouth. I asked why there is no DS for 64bit, and that's what I got from Marco from m2tech.

 I actually do not know for certain whether that's true and why.


----------



## momomo6789

lol i already lost faith in them after it took 45 days for them to ship. 

 anyways i installed windows xp mode and have ds in that only need for watching movies and such anyways


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No.

 DS in 64bit requires the certification from MS, and that's really costly. That's why m2tech is not going that route._

 

I don't see DS option or HiFace as auido device in control panel in 32 bit Vista either. Guess it's just OS related and DS works only in XP.


----------



## Sieg9198

so basically only KS is usable in Windows 7??

 If that's true and they(M2tech) do not have the intention to provide DS support in the future. The hiFace would be pretty much useless with a Windows 7 system


----------



## momomo6789

found a good fix use realtek -> mini -> rca -> pheonix , then hiface -> dac -> pheonix.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_found a good fix use realtek -> mini -> rca -> pheonix , then hiface -> dac -> pheonix._

 

I'm not sure I understand your fix. Can you elaborate?


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so basically only KS is usable in Windows 7??

 If that's true and they(M2tech) do not have the intention to provide DS support in the future. The hiFace would be pretty much useless with a Windows 7 system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think you can use another bit-exact output such as ASIO or wasapi, but that's only when running foobar. Does that mean that system sounds and everything else outside of foobar has no sound due to lack of drivers?


----------



## momomo6789

lol their is no fix just using onboard for ds.

 i made a 3.5mm -> L/R RCA so i just switch between 1 and 3 on the amp for ds and the hiface.
 so
 DS->realtek>mini->rca->phoenix select 1
 Hiface->bnc-bnc->Re1->phoenix select 3


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slackman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the Musiland. I've never heard it but I read that though it does do async usb, it has a terrible clock that is never 44.1 or 48 / 88.2 / 96, but allways a % off. I wouldn't want such a thing as a source myself.
 Also in another thread the hiFace compared favourably to the Musiland._

 

Can you source where you heard this. I;m thinking of buying a HiFace or Musiland for my new EE DAC>Raptor.

 thanks!
 Jon


----------



## doctorcilantro

I'm confused at the fetish for DirectSound, what about ASIO4ALL?


----------



## momomo6789

without DS their is no asio , wasabi , youtube, video files no sound other then useing foobar with ks.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_without DS their is no asio , wasabi , youtube, video files no sound other then useing foobar with ks._

 

I'm not sure I understand, but I use an EMU1616M with ASIO.

 I have J. River set to use ASIO for Zone 1.

 Zone 2 can use Emu wave device which can be set as default for Windows for junk like internet, or films (directshow filters only connect to wave or ds output).

 Zone 3 can use WASAPI for my other USB DAC. 

 Zone 4 can use Wave output to outdoor speakers and play computer sound as default device.

 Why do I need DS for PC sound?
 DC


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slackman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About the jitter, that's what I thought too about the DA10, that the source jitter doesn't matter.
 But my ears tell me a very different story.
 Both UA-1EX and hiFace are bit-perfect, so the only difference is the jitter.

 As for BNC vs RCA, Marco from m2tech told me that if the DAC has a BNC input go with BNC hiFace, if the DAC has RCA input go with RCA hiFace, as BNC to RCA does bad things.

 As for the Musiland. I've never heard it but I read that though it does do async usb, it has a terrible clock that is never 44.1 or 48 / 88.2 / 96, but allways a % off. I wouldn't want such a thing as a source myself.
 Also in another thread the hiFace compared favourably to the Musiland._

 

Strange the reviewer in this thread claims the Musiland was rock solid even with heavy PC usage. Later on in thread someone, and verified by another poster, claims they get digital artifacts on the HiFace (at beginning of song and when power on/off devices in the home).

 I think you got you devices backwards.


----------



## Patu

No DS for Win7 even in future? Wow, that really sucks. Makes me wonder if I can keep this device. It's useless if I can't watch youtube videos and normal videos on Win7. In WinXP everything works fine though. This is really sad because it sounds very good.


----------



## slackman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No DS for Win7 even in future? Wow, that really sucks. Makes me wonder if I can keep this device. It's useless if I can't watch youtube videos and normal videos on Win7. In WinXP everything works fine though. This is really sad because it sounds very good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm on windows xp but I'm only using kernel streaming in foobar.
 Why would you want to use the hiFace for youtube videos etc?
 Just any onboard soundcard would do fine for that, it's not like youtube has any audio quality worhty of jitter free transmission to a dac.
 And all music that is worthy quality wise you'll have in wav of flac etc and can be played in foobar.

 I'm not easily wowed by a piece of equipment but the hiFace did it for me.
 I was expecting to have to wait a long time before a cheap solution (i was thinking likely from china) for high quality digital out from the computer, as all other solutions up till now were $500+.
 Now the hiFace is here, 100 euro, made in italy, it's small, bus powered and doesn't need a usb cable. What more could we want? It's perfect


----------



## TheShaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slackman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..all music that is worthy quality wise you'll have in wav of flac etc and can be played in foobar._

 

Exactly.

 I don't care about DS support, either.

 I'm using these usb transport devices (Musiland and M2Tech type) solely with Foobar for HiFi auditions.. 
 For youtube, gaming and stuff like that I use my Logitech Z-Cinemas. 
 For HD movies on my TV I either use the digital out of the onboard soundcard or the HDMI of my VGA.


----------



## fenixdown110

It's great is you only use foobar to listen to music, but no sound playback for media players for movies and such? I'll pass.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's great is you only use foobar to listen to music, but no sound playback for media players for movies and such? I'll pass._

 

I posted above about how directshow filters connect to both DS and Wave devices. I'm unclear why you have to have DS. I have used FFDshow and done some half-tricky upsamlping to 96KHz (as EMU patchmix must be manually changed and I'm lazy) using both DS and Wave.

 So just set the Wave output for Windows sound and use the K-mixer for movies and sub-par internet content.

 You can retain use of ASIO or WASAPI with your player of choice, I think, at least that's the case in J. River. I can push ASIO on ZONE 1 to my hifi, and if I watch film, the renderer pushes to wave device on ZONE 1, so I get the best of both worlds.

 Maybe I'm missing something? Can't you simply make the HiFace your default device in Windows, and have the player of your choice use WASAPI for hifi listening (as stated if you use J. River the video rendered is chosen separately which allows you to push film/video to any device except ASIO).

 DC


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm confused at the fetish for DirectSound, what about ASIO4ALL?_

 

KS is only available in foobar2000 if you want to use m2tech for playback in other programs you need it registered with the system as auido device, which it doesn't under Vista or Windows 7, and support DS. Asio4all crackles severely under Vista and you still can't use it in anything but foobar2000.


----------



## Sieg9198

Alright, if I'm not mistaken, using the hiFace with Windows 7 would be like using the earlier version driver of the hiFace on Windows XP. You wont hear ANY sound out of your computer other than your foobar!! So no gaming, no youtube, no videos and so, this would be extremely inconvenient if your PC only sound source is your DAC(like me)


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe I'm missing something? Can't you simply make the HiFace your default device in Windows, and have the player of your choice use WASAPI for hifi listening (as stated if you use J. River the video rendered is chosen separately which allows you to push film/video to any device except ASIO).

 DC_

 

It does not appear as audio device in Sound Control Panel on Vista or W7.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It does not appear as audio device in Sound Control Panel on Vista or W7._

 

Well that sucks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pointless device; not everyone wants the inflexibility of just using KS in Foobar.

 What about the Musiland? Hopefully it can be recognized by J. River.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well that sucks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pointless device; not everyone wants the inflexibility of just using KS in Foobar.

 What about the Musiland? Hopefully it can be recognized by J. River._

 

That's what most are getting it for, inflexible playback out of foobar2000. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I got two already for two systems and can't be happier.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what most are getting it for, inflexible playback out of foobar2000. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I got two already for two systems and can't be happier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No offense, but I'll stick with J. River, it sounds as good if not better than Foobar, with far greater functionality, tweakability, & usability.


----------



## Sieg9198

Ok, good news, just shot M2tech few hours ago with an email about the DS support issue and here's the reply I got.

  Quote:


 Hi,

 it's correct that no direct sound is presently possible with Win 7, but it's also not true at all that a support is not planned: we're working on a new wasapi-compliant driver which will allow for direct sound. It will come for free. We only put this topic at a low importance leve, as direct sound is not bit perfet nor high quality listening. hiFace was aimed at audiophiles who are not really interested to listen to Youtube or similar. For audiophiles, a PC IS to be a music transport, the more transparent as possible.
 Anyway, we're working on it right now: market dictates.

 Best regards,

 Marco Manunta 
 

So it's seems like we will still get DS but no very soon


----------



## momomo6789

I understand your disappointment. We're working on the new driver with wasapi compliance for direct sound right now. Your satisfaction is our most important goal. Alas, our human resources are limited, we are a small company, but we're striving to give customers all they need to enjoy hiFace.

 Cheers,

 Marco


----------



## leeperry

when the WASAPI drivers will be out, that'd be interesting to hear your feedback on those snake-oil players: Measuring XXHighEnd

 maybe it'd also work w/ ASIO4ALL? anyway, that'd be interesting to know if all the stuff(that's impossible to verify) about those players really does make an audible difference on uber-low jitter equipment(provided that your DAC also plays nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slackman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm on windows xp but I'm only using kernel streaming in foobar.
 Why would you want to use the hiFace for youtube videos etc?
 Just any onboard soundcard would do fine for that, it's not like youtube has any audio quality worhty of jitter free transmission to a dac.
 And all music that is worthy quality wise you'll have in wav of flac etc and can be played in foobar.

 I'm not easily wowed by a piece of equipment but the hiFace did it for me.
 I was expecting to have to wait a long time before a cheap solution (i was thinking likely from china) for high quality digital out from the computer, as all other solutions up till now were $500+.
 Now the hiFace is here, 100 euro, made in italy, it's small, bus powered and doesn't need a usb cable. What more could we want? It's perfect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't care about the sound quality in youtube videos. It all comes to convenience and ease of use. I have three inputs in my DAC. If I'd want to use some other sound card for youtube videos and movies I'd have to waste another input from the DAC for the other sound card. You think I want to waste two inputs for computer when there's three inputs overall (and one of them is USB which is pretty much useless to me)? Also I'd have to switch the mode from the DAC every time I watch some short clip from youtube. That's just dumb. My DAC isn't right next to me when I'm on computer and there's no remote control. I also watch movies from my computer which is plugged in to my TV and speaker setup. So it's essential that I get DS from my computer to my DAC. 

 I saved my ESI Maya44 but it has TSR outputs instead of RCA outputs. I would have to use adapters to plug that straight to my integrated amp. Then also, if I would like to watch some random youtube video every now and then, I'd have to switch the input from my integrated amp for that. That's not very convenient. 

 Any other questions?

 EDIT:

 So it seems that they're still developing DS support for Win7. Well I have no problems sticking with WinXP for a while longer. I've been using it for 7-8 years already.


----------



## TheShaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No offense, but I'll stick with J. River, it sounds as good if not better than Foobar, with far greater functionality, tweakability, & usability._

 

If it sounds "better" then there's something wrong with it and you should be worried. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Usability, you're right.
 Tweakability and functionality, I doubt it.
 The Foobar community is huge and has some very skilled people. There are numerous plugins for almost anything you might need (from simple skins to advanced ones like DSP) and it's all free to try and experiment (or improve upon, if you've got the skillz).


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, good news, just shot M2tech few hours ago with an email about the DS support issue and here's the reply I got.
 "Hi,

 it's correct that no direct sound is presently possible with Win 7, but it's also not true at all that a support is not planned: we're working on a new *wasapi-compliant driver which will allow for direct sound. It will come for free. We only put this topic at a low importance leve, as direct sound is not bit perfet* nor high quality listening. hiFace was aimed at audiophiles who are not really interested to listen to Youtube or similar. For audiophiles, a PC IS to be a music transport, the more transparent as possible.
 Anyway, we're working on it right now: market dictates.

 Best regards,

 Marco Manunta "


 So it's seems like we will still get DS but no very soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Is it wasapi or DS, wasapi should be bit-perfect?


----------



## rosgr63

Marco,

 The hiFace is very good and the new Mac 1.03.2 driver is stable.

 HiFace can run 32bit/192kHz the only issue is the reduced volume output.


----------



## Bails

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand your disappointment. We're working on the new driver with wasapi compliance for direct sound right now. Your satisfaction is our most important goal. Alas, our human resources are limited, we are a small company, but we're striving to give customers all they need to enjoy hiFace.

 Cheers,

 Marco_

 

That's excellent news.


----------



## The-One

Here's a question:

 Does the HiFace sound better than USB socket it's plugged into?

 What I mean is, I have a DAC that accepts both USB and Coaxial. So if one uses the HiFace instead of USB, will it sound better?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The-One* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a question:

 Does the HiFace sound better than USB socket it's plugged into?

 What I mean is, I have a DAC that accepts both USB and Coaxial. So if one uses the HiFace instead of USB, will it sound better?_

 

It depends on USB receiver implementation in your DAC. Generally, if you do not have f.e. Ayre DAC, hiFace will better DAC USB inputs.

 What kind of DAC do you have?

 EDIT: I see Beresford in your signature. It's manual says 16/48 USB capability. I'd say hiFace WOULD better it.


----------



## athenaesword

i only just got to know about the m2tech hiface, and was wondering if it's worth putting in money for the hiface + dac or just go with a good usb dac solution like the benchmark. 

 i'm currently using an oritek audio dac, and am running off the coax from my motherboard (bad) and wanna upgrade.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i only just got to know about the m2tech hiface, and was wondering if it's worth putting in money for the hiface + dac or just go with a good usb dac solution like the benchmark. 

 i'm currently using an oritek audio dac, and am running off the coax from my motherboard (bad) and wanna upgrade._

 

In my opinion, it all depends on how much you are willing to spend. If you are looking for improving the sound quality of your current DAC, the Hiface will probably bring a big improvement over a motherboard coaxial out. Anyway, if you buy it now, it could still be usefull in the future unless you buy async usb dac (Ayre, Wavelength, ...). In fact, even if your future DAC has good reclocking, it can still benefit from the Hiface (or another high quality transport). A few pages ago (here), slackman noticed a considerable improvement using the Hiface with the Lavry DA10 which has good reclocking.


----------



## athenaesword

but if i get a usb dac like the benchmark then i wouldn't need the hiface usb to spdif converter anymore? 

 also, my current dac only has rca.. which i read is inferior to BNC connections..(since the hiface only has only the choice of either, i can't upgrade to bnc connectors later without changing the hiface) so i guess that will be another reason why i would change the dac. can i expect a BNC to RCA connection to be inferior to a BNC to BNC connection?

 then again, a 150usd instant upgrade without changing the rest of my components is immensely tempting.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my opinion, it all depends on how much you are willing to spend. If you are looking for improving the sound quality of your current DAC, the Hiface will probably bring a big improvement over a motherboard coaxial out. Anyway, if you buy it now, it could still be usefull in the future unless you buy async usb dac (Ayre, Wavelength, ...). In fact, even if your future DAC has good reclocking, it can still benefit from the Hiface (or another high quality transport). A few pages ago (here), slackman noticed a considerable improvement using the Hiface with the Lavry DA10 which has good reclocking._


----------



## sadhill

I think a RCA socket with a good cable does'nt make much difference with a BNC connexion.

 Having the Hiface opens to you the world of better DACs than the Benchmark (for example CIAudio VDA.2, among other).

 You may also wait for new 192 kHz USB capable DACs to come... which shouldn't be too long !


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sadhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a RCA socket with a good cable does'nt make much difference with a BNC connexion.

 Having the Hiface opens to you the world of better DACs than the Benchmark (for example CIAudio VDA.2, among other).

 You may also wait for new 192 kHz USB capable DACs to come... which shouldn't be too long !_

 

I'm hoping for the same thing so I don't have to deal with Win 7 incompatible devices.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sadhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a RCA socket with a good cable does'nt make much difference with a BNC connexion.

 Having the Hiface opens to you the world of better DACs than the Benchmark (for example CIAudio VDA.2, among other).

 You may also wait for new 192 kHz USB capable DACs to come... which shouldn't be too long !_

 

hey sadhill,

 with regards to your last statement - waiting meaning i don't get the hiface? or get the hiface, and hold off on the dac (i.e get a bnc hiface and use a bnc - RCA connector)


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm hoping for the same thing so I don't have to deal with Win 7 incompatible devices._

 

what devices are you refering to? i've been on win7 for months and haven't really heard much of incompatible devices.


----------



## sadhill

Quote:


 with regards to your last statement - waiting meaning i don't get the hiface? or get the hiface, and hold off on the dac (i.e get a bnc hiface and use a bnc - RCA connector) 
 

It depends if you are in a hurry....

 As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the HiFace. And at least it's here and it works , and very well.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sadhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It depends if you are in a hurry....

 As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the HiFace. And at least it's here and it works , and very well._

 

i'll probably go with this as well. i read earlier on the in the thread about bnc supposedly being better than rca though, but haven't heard anyone claim that it actually sounds better. 

 has anyone actually compared both types and concluded that bnc sounds superior? even the benchmark dac1 pre doesnt' have bnc, so i'm thinking perhaps it's not that big a deal.


----------



## Dat_Dude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm hoping for the same thing so I don't have to deal with Win 7 incompatible devices._

 

Forgive me for not reading through the entire thread, but are you saying this device is not compatible with Win 7? I have a USB-SPDIF converter currently and do not think it is compatible. Was hoping to find a different one instead of going right into my DacMagic.


----------



## momomo6789

it works in foobar only in win7.


----------



## athenaesword

ah... i see. read through a couple of extra pages in the thread just now. so this thing can't play youtube videos or videos from another media player in win7. now that just sucks balls doesn't it ^^


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ah... i see. read through a couple of extra pages in the thread just now. so this thing can't play youtube videos or videos from another media player in win7. now that just sucks balls doesn't it ^^_

 

IMHO it's an excellent hi quality for the price Audio converter.
 Would you get hi quality 24bit/192kHz audio from a youtube video?
 An updated driver might allow you to do this any way, as M2Tech are updating their drivers all the time.


----------



## momomo6789

i had to build a 50$ cable mini -> rca b/c it has no ds : (


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMHO it's an excellent hi quality for the price Audio converter.
 Would you get hi quality 24bit/192kHz audio from a youtube video?
 An updated driver might allow you to do this any way, as M2Tech are updating their drivers all the time._

 

it's not so much to the lack of high quality audio, but the lack of any audio, that might be a problem. i certainly do not need 24/192 on youtube, but have no sound at all would take away immensely from videos.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'll probably go with this as well. i read earlier on the in the thread about bnc supposedly being better than rca though, but haven't heard anyone claim that it actually sounds better. 

 has anyone actually compared both types and concluded that bnc sounds superior? even the benchmark dac1 pre doesnt' have bnc, so i'm thinking perhaps it's not that big a deal._

 

There's an impedance and noise issue.

 For digital interconnects 75 Ohm termination is important - it prevents signal reflections bouncing inside the cable and the associated signal degradation. BNC connectors are spot on 75 Ohm, while RCA are hard to match.

 BNC connectors also introduce less signal-noise than RCA connectors do.

 That said, if you have a good RCA terminated digital cable for digital audio you can "live happily ever after" and forget about everything said. It is just more probable that this "happily ever after" will happen with BNC terminated digital cable.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's not so much to the lack of high quality audio, but the lack of any audio, that might be a problem. i certainly do not need 24/192 on youtube, but have no sound at all would take away immensely from videos._

 

You surely have some kind of onboard audio? Use this onboard audio for youtube, film watching, audio chimes, exclamations and whatnot.

 Use hiFace for quality listening to your music. On Win7 for time being through Kernel Streaming capable media player(s).


----------



## Ciu

Hello !

 May be one would explain what is the impedance of a connector, more precisely for RCA and BNC ?
 Z comes from R and L.... but seems to be 0 , for some mm of metal ? May be I'm wrong ?
 Thanks
 R.C.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's an impedance and noise issue.

 For digital interconnects 75 Ohm termination is important - it prevents signal reflections bouncing inside the cable and the associated signal degradation. BNC connectors are spot on 75 Ohm, while RCA are hard to match.

 BNC connectors also introduce less signal-noise than RCA connectors do.

 That said, if you have a good RCA terminated digital cable for digital audio you can "live happily ever after" and forget about everything said. It is just more probable that this "happily ever after" will happen with BNC terminated digital cable.



 You surely have some kind of onboard audio? Use this onboard audio for youtube, film watching, audio chimes, exclamations and whatnot.

 Use hiFace for quality listening to your music. On Win7 for time being through Kernel Streaming capable media player(s)._

 

so u're saying essentially if i have a good RCA cable it doesn't matter? are BNC cables generally cheaper than RCA then?

 yes i have onboard audio. however, my dac (the oritek) only has 1 input, and that's the RCA. there's no way for me to put multiple inputs to the speakers.... that's my limitation.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so u're saying essentially if i have a good RCA cable it doesn't matter? are BNC cables generally cheaper than RCA then?_

 

Yes, if you have good RCA digital cable (with no or minimal reflections/noise) - it does not matter for stereo audio.

 There should be no or minimal price difference between BNC and RCA cables. BNC tend to be slightly more expensive because of the word "better" in marketing materials. In any case a decent digital cable can go for $20-$25. I'd add that anything over $100 (we are speaking of normal length cables) is overpriced.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes i have onboard audio. however, my dac (the oritek) only has 1 input, and that's the RCA. there's no way for me to put multiple inputs to the speakers.... that's my limitation._

 

Hmm, what about your amplifier? Does it have more inputs?

 If it does, connect hiFace to Oritek, Oritek to one amp input. Connect your computer audio out directly to other amp input. Hopefully your amp will also have an easy and elegant way of switching inputs.


----------



## athenaesword

thanks for the replies faudrei. I'm currently using active studio monitors, so the pre, amp, and speakers are all in the monitor housing, so that option is not available to me.

 would i still benefit from getting the hiface if i ended buying a benchmark dac1 pre? i'm told that the benchmark's clock is completely independent of the input clock and so having a good transport should provide little to no improvement.

 a quick glance at my setup and you'll see that the weakest link is probably the digital side, and that's where i'm looking to improve things:
 motherboard coax -->$30 digital cable --> Oritek OMZ --> chord cobra cables --> Adam A7 active monitors
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, if you have good RCA digital cable (with no or minimal reflections/noise) - it does not matter for stereo audio.

 There should be no or minimal price difference between BNC and RCA cables. BNC tend to be slightly more expensive because of the word "better" in marketing materials. In any case a decent digital cable can go for $20-$25. I'd add that anything over $100 (we are speaking of normal length cables) is overpriced.

 Hmm, what about your amplifier? Does it have more inputs?

 If it does, connect hiFace to Oritek, Oritek to one amp input. Connect your computer audio out directly to other amp input. Hopefully your amp will also have an easy and elegant way of switching inputs._


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_would i still benefit from getting the hiface if i ended buying a benchmark dac1 pre? i'm told that the benchmark's clock is completely independent of the input clock and so having a good transport should provide little to no improvement._

 

I have the RE-1 and it still helps. I would say yes - you would still benefit.


----------



## fenixdown110

I think I'm going to go with the Musiland 01 USD instead.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the RE-1 and it still helps. I would say yes - you would still benefit._

 

does the re1 have usb input? cus i'm just about the purchase a dac1 pre that has usb and i'm thinking if i should spdif with the hiface instead of usb on the dac1pre


----------



## Sieg9198

The support for DS(which allows you to have sound in youtube) in Win7 will be available eventually anyway. So for those who can wait, I would suggest to wait for the new driver to come out.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does the re1 have usb input? cus i'm just about the purchase a dac1 pre that has usb and i'm thinking if i should spdif with the hiface instead of usb on the dac1pre_

 

No. RE-1 does not have USB input.

 As I read, DAC1 PRE USB input does 24/96 "no drivers required". It should be OK. Still, I think, hiFace (or perhaps even Musilands toys) would fare better.

 $1,6K for a USB DAC and pre? It might be just me - I do not fancy the Benchmark's fatiguing brightness, but I wonder could you be satisfied with something like this? It uses dual differential DAC chips that you can find in Cambridge Audio's top of the line CD player...


----------



## doctorcilantro

I have a Musiland coming to play with in my vinyl archiving setup, but I just bought a HiFace from TweekGeek yesterday (for my office rig), and today it has shipped.

 I like cutting out another cable out of the loop with the HiFace, and will run BNC direct to my DAC.

 DC


----------



## somestranger26

I knew the Windows 7 (x64) drivers were fairly new and needed some work but wow this is ridiculous. Not only does it not work with DirectSound, it won't work with WASAPI either. It only shows up using ASIO/KS but I've tried both with Foobar2000 and ASIO (ASIO4ALL driver) with J River Media Center and Winamp and it crashes all of them. Not just any crash either, I can't even end the process; I have to restart my computer... manually because the hung process(es) cause shutdown to hang.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I knew the Windows 7 (x64) drivers were fairly new and needed some work but wow this is ridiculous. Not only does it not work with DirectSound, it won't work with WASAPI either. It only shows up using ASIO/KS but I've tried both with Foobar2000 and ASIO (ASIO4ALL driver) with J River Media Center and Winamp and it crashes all of them. Not just any crash either, I can't even end the process; I have to restart my computer... manually because the hung process(es) cause shutdown to hang._

 

In Vista and W7 it officially supports only KS. It might change with new drivers as they dropped a word of adding support for WASAPI/DS. Why are you trying to use ASIO4ALL with foobar2000, use KS?


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In Vista and W7 it officially supports only KS. It might change with new drivers as they dropped a word of adding support for WASAPI/DS. Why are you trying to use ASIO4ALL with foobar2000, use KS?_

 

First off, ASIO4All is nothing but a wrapper for Kernel Streaming and it works PERFECTLY FINE ON 32 BIT.

 Second, I already used KS with Foobar2000 and it caused epic crashes like every other piece of software I tried. Read my post.  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Somestranger26* 
_It only shows up using ASIO/KS but I've tried both with Foobar2000_


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I already used KS with Foobar2000 and it caused epic crashes like every other piece of software I tried._

 

Wrapper or not, they seem to work differently for m2tech, ASIO4ALL crackles a lot on Vista. Some have had some success with it on XP.
 I haven't heard of any issues with KS on foobar2000 though, but if you are saying any piece of software crashes on your computer, there might be something really wrong with it. Have you tried it on other lap or comp? If you continue having issues, contact m2tech support, showing your anger here would not help.


----------



## momomo6789

works fine for me in win7 64 ult with ks in foobar


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I knew the Windows 7 (x64) drivers were fairly new and needed some work but wow this is ridiculous. Not only does it not work with DirectSound, it won't work with WASAPI either. It only shows up using ASIO/KS but I've tried both with Foobar2000 and ASIO (ASIO4ALL driver) with J River Media Center and Winamp and it crashes all of them. Not just any crash either, I can't even end the process; I have to restart my computer... manually because the hung process(es) cause shutdown to hang._

 

When this happen next time - try unplugging hiFace and see what happens. You just might regain the control of your computer.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When this happen next time - try unplugging hiFace and see what happens. You just might regain the control of your computer._

 

Fresh Windows 7 install with no previous audio drivers installed. I've tried reinstalling drivers, unplugging and plugging the Hiface back in, etc. and still issues. It works with zero problems on my laptop running 32 bit except I do *not* use my laptop for music.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fresh Windows 7 install with no previous audio drivers installed. I've tried reinstalling drivers, unplugging and plugging the Hiface back in, etc. and still issues. It works with zero problems on my laptop running 32 bit except I do *not* use my laptop for music._

 

May I ask obvious, did you use Setup64.exe, as it works fine for me on Vista 64bit?


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_May I ask obvious, did you use Setup64.exe, as it works fine for me on Vista 64bit?_

 

Of course I did. And just to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not an issue with Windows, I just reinstalled and am having the same issue. I play something in Foobar with KS enabled to the hiface, my DAC locks it but nothing plays, Foobar crashes tragically. I'm definitely contacting m2tech about this now.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Did you try compatibility mode? For Vista or maybe XP SP3?

 Probably won't matter since you are getting it to actually commence the install process, but just an idea....

 DC

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course I did. And just to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not an issue with Windows, I just reinstalled and am having the same issue. I play something in Foobar with KS enabled to the hiface, my DAC locks it but nothing plays, Foobar crashes tragically. I'm definitely contacting m2tech about this now._


----------



## macrog

My Hiface arrived this morning and is running in as I type. I sounds very different to my Musiland monitor 02us digital output from new. I wont post extended thoughts until it has had a couple of days of running in.

 Initial impression is of a very large soundstage but a bit soft and emotionally detached. I am hoping it will change dramatically with run in.

 It was very easy to install under windows xp pro. Amongst the easiest things I have ever installed. The firmware upgrade for the musiland was one of the worst installs I have ever done (but a great wee gadget). I hate it when I see musilands described as toys. I love them and bang for buck they are great.

 I am using the Hiface through an audio-gd reference 1 dac.

 regards

 macrog


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate it when I see musilands described as toys. I love them and bang for buck they are great._

 

I also like my 01 USD, excellent performance and certainly great VfM.

 But economically speaking and compared to Diverter or Bel Canto's converter - Musilands are toys.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using the Hiface through an audio-gd reference 1 dac._

 

Let us know if the HiFace is a worthy upgrade with the RE1.
 RE1 does a good job at reclocking the signal and I was wondering if the HiFace was worth it for someone who could get a bit perfect digital signal from the motherboard via TOSlink or RCA jacks.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let us know if the HiFace is a worthy upgrade with the RE1.
 RE1 does a good job at recloking the signal and I was wondering if the HiFace was worth it for someone who could get a bit perfect digital signal from the motherboard via TOSlink or RCA jacks._

 

Yes the Hiface is great and a clear improvement on the musiland monitor 02us which was an improvement on the Xonar ST which was an improvement on the coaxial digital output from my motherboard.

 There is no doubt it is a huge improvement on motherboard digital output.

 Reclocking at the dac is a great idea but clearly the better your digital source the more information that is resolved by the dac.

 You seriously wont regret getting the Hiface.

 macrog


----------



## punk_guy182

Thanks for the fast response Macrog. I will get this device.


----------



## goodvibes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course I did. And just to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not an issue with Windows, I just reinstalled and am having the same issue. I play something in Foobar with KS enabled to the hiface, my DAC locks it but nothing plays, Foobar crashes tragically. I'm definitely contacting m2tech about this now._

 

Uninstall ASIO4all and then try KS again after a reboot. It can cause this in certain configurations.


----------



## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey sadhill,

 with regards to your last statement - waiting meaning i don't get the hiface? or get the hiface, and hold off on the dac (i.e get a bnc hiface and use a bnc - RCA connector)_

 

Is BNC better than RCA?


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *.Sup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is BNC better than RCA?_

 

technically yes because it's true 75ohm


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_technically yes because it's true 75ohm_

 

... and has less jitter.


----------



## .Sup

Damn but my DAC doesn't have BNC input


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *.Sup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn but my DAC doesn't have BNC input_

 

Some DACs, even Hi End ones don't have BNC inputs, as standard but as an option.


----------



## Ciu

A connector has no "characteristic impedance", a cable have one (at high frequencies)...
 R.C.


----------



## macrog

The Hiface does seem better than the Musiland monitor 02us but the difference isn't night and day. 

 The improvements I have noticed are:
 - Better imaging (height and depth)
 - Perhaps a bit more micro detail e.g. extended decay on instruments (The Bells on tubular bells sound wonderful)

 I think the bass may be a little weaker than the musiland. 

 The performance of the Hiface does highlight the value of the Musiland monitor 02us which costs significantly less performs very nearly as well but also includes a good quality dac and headphone amp. 

 How long does the Hiface take to sound its best?

 Macrog


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Hiface does seem better than the Musiland monitor 02us but the difference isn't night and day. 

 The improvements I have noticed are:
 - Better imaging (height and depth)
 - Perhaps a bit more micro detail e.g. extended decay on instruments (The Bells on tubular bells sound wonderful)

 I think the bass may be a little weaker than the musiland. 

*The performance of the Hiface does highlight the value of the Musiland monitor 02us which costs significantly less* performs very nearly as well but also includes a good quality dac and headphone amp. 

 How long does the Hiface take to sound its best?

 Macrog_

 

Now I am confused, doesn't M2Tech RCA cost $150, same as Musiland Monitor 02US.


----------



## hawkhead

Musiland is $138 incl shipping


----------



## macrog

To get to me in New Zealand Hiface cost $234 vs $174 for musiland monitor 02us. Prices are in NZ dollars.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Musiland is $138 incl shipping_

 

It's $150, but there seems to be promotional 3-day sale for $142.
USB Digital Sound Card - Musiland Monitor 02 US - eBay (item 260437930872 end time Jan-24-10 23:25:28 PST)
 Anyway, $138 or $150 is nowhere a *significant* price difference as previous poster mentioned, esp. considering that everyone seems to agree that it's better.


----------



## macrog

Over 25% cheaper is significant to me particularly with the cheaper option having the DAC and headphone amp built in.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Over 25% cheaper is significant to me particularly with the cheaper option having the DAC and headphone amp built in._

 

I am just trying to make my point across. Here in US they cost THE SAME. You post on significant price difference is very misleading. Although it might be the case for your local dealer or whoever you are purchasing your equipment from.
 And to be fair, do you really think dac and headphone amp in Musicland are really that great to mention them as a winning point?


----------



## macrog

Yes, the Dac in the musiland monitor 02us is definately worth mentioning. It significantly out performs the Cambridge Dacmagic which many people are running as their primary source when both are fed a usb signal. I own both and would far prefer to listen to the musiland. Head phone amp wise the musiland headphone amp is much better when running my shure se420s than my ipod 160gb, ipod tiuch 64gb or Iaudio X5. I am not suggesting the musiland is perfect just giving credit where credit is due.

 Regards

 macrog


----------



## ulfp

Yesterday I bought a HiFace with RCA connection from RaindropAudio in Singapore (stock in the shop, so no time lost ordering). If I would have read the last few pages on this thread earlier, I would probably have gone for the BNC and used a BNC to RCA adapter at DAC end.

 The Hiface gave me improvement strait out of the box when compared to my Xonar DX with SPDIF optical connected to Audio-GD Compass (improvement both with HD650 and DAC+Amp+speakers).

 After reading some "coax theories" last evening, I made a new DIY 40cm RCA coax today (using Belden 75ohm cable and some $10 RCA connects). When replacing what I thought was a decent 1.5m quality coax/RCA cable, SQ improved even more. I now hear details like never before with an improved soundstage (perhaps 1 day burn-in also contributing to improvement). On some recordings the highs sound a bit sharp while on others it is smooth and natural (I guess the HiFace just bring out more of both good and bad in recordings). 

 Mixing music with different sample rate work like a charm (I normally play a mix of music of 44k, 88k and 96k). In fact, this ability to automatically handle transition between different sample rates was the key reasons I bought the Hiface. The sound quality improvement was a BIG BONUS.

 On the down side, the just downloaded driver seems to hang-up somewhat now and then on my low-end XP system. This seems to happen when I go between tracks of different sample rate. Normally it resolves itself in 10-15 sec or by quick restart of foobar (still faster and easier than changing sample rate with the Xonar driver) . 

 I was a bit skeptical to all the cable theories earlier in this thread, but after the improvement gained with a simple DIY RCA coax, I regret even more not getting the BNC version. I guess there is more SQ to unleash using a real quality cable connection.


----------



## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the Dac in the musiland monitor 02us is definately worth mentioning. It significantly out performs the Cambridge Dacmagic which many people are running as their primary source when both are fed a usb signal._

 

Are you serious?!?

 How does musiland have a better DAC than DacMagic? Please describe both. I find that really hard to believe.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ulfp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems to happen when I go between tracks of different sample rate. Normally it resolves itself in 10-15 sec or by quick restart of foobar (still faster and easier than changing sample rate with the Xonar driver) . _

 

You can upsample them all to the same rate in foobar2000. SoX is a perfect upsampling plug in, I upsample everything to 176.4 (4X) when feeding Chord DAC64, and to 88.2 (2X) with Stello DA-100 (it only accepts up to 96khz).


----------



## paaj

Received mine last week, using it with Snow Leopard and it has a sort of digital sparkle (pops/clicks) over the sound that is really anoying. Anyone know what the problem could be? It is not there when I use the optical output of my Mac Mini.


----------



## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Received mine last week, using it with Snow Leopard and it has a sort of digital sparkle (pops/clicks) over the sound that is really anoying. Anyone know what the problem could be? It is not there when I use the optical output of my Mac Mini._

 

You on wireless?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Received mine last week, using it with Snow Leopard and it has a sort of digital sparkle (pops/clicks) over the sound that is really anoying. Anyone know what the problem could be? It is not there when I use the optical output of my Mac Mini._

 

Have you tried reducing the sampling rate and/or as slim.a suggested different ports?


----------



## paaj

I tried moving the music files from NAS to SSD (built in the Mini), no difference. 
 I use 44.1Khz as I only listen to CD rips. I changed USB ports, tried an USB extension cable and changed DAC but that didn't help either. Strange thing is that it does not happen with my optical output and I've never noticed it when I used an 0404USB as digital source earlier.

 I'll try it on my Macbook later, maybe my Mini is faulty and it also has Windows7 so I'll try that too.


----------



## rosgr63

I understand you use 16bit/41.1 kHz files, but have you tried to lower the HiFace to 44.1kHz or is it running at 192kHz?


----------



## paaj

AudiMidi said 44.1kHz, I've tripple checked it. Only difference in output setting relative to the optical output is 32bit instead of 24 bits but M2Tech sais it is not the problem and it is not changeable anyway.

 Tomorrow I'll check if my Macbook has the same problem and otherwise I can start up windows 7 on it. That'd make clear if the device itself is broken or if there is something wrong inside the Mini.


----------



## rosgr63

Please keep us posted


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *.Sup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you serious?!?

 How does musiland have a better DAC than DacMagic? Please describe both. I find that really hard to believe._

 

The DAC isn't better but the usb implementation on the musiland is so much better than the usb input on the dacmagic that the musiland sounds much better than the dacmagic.

 After I got rid of my Cambridge 840C, whilst I waited for my audio-gd reference 1 to arrive, it was the musiland I was listening to as my primary source not my dacmagic.

 Regards

 macrog


----------



## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The DAC isn't better but the usb implementation on the musiland is so much better than the usb input on the dacmagic that the musiland sounds much better than the dacmagic.

 After I got rid of my Cambridge 840C, whilst I waited for my audio-gd reference 1 to arrive, it was the musiland I was listening to as my primary source not my dacmagic.

 Regards

 macrog_

 

Well I have to say the USB input actually works better than optical/coaxial for me. So what about hiface+Dacmagic? Any improvement?


----------



## macrog

Yes the Dacmagic sounds better fed by the Musiland through the coaxial input.

 I did notice quite a difference with different coaxial digital cables on the dacmagic. I am using an Eichman which I prefer even to the Kimber ks2020. The Eichmans just more natural.

 We are going off thread a bit. Personal Mail me if you like to continue this conversation.

 Regards

 Macrog


----------



## ulfp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can upsample them all to the same rate in foobar2000. SoX is a perfect upsampling plug in, I upsample everything to 176.4 (4X) when feeding Chord DAC64, and to 88.2 (2X) with Stello DA-100 (it only accepts up to 96khz)._

 

Earlier, I sometimes configured my Xonar for 96k and re-sampled in foobar to 96k to match (using SSRC, SSRC-X or PPHS). Somehow this config did not “feel” quite right as my 44k and 88k music then was re-sampled to 96k (my Xonar soundcard did not support 88). Cant say I could hear a whole lot of difference, but IMHO it does not “feel” right to re-sample 88 to 96. In addition, my PC is old and not very high-end and there was a higher tendency for drop-outs when using re-sampling in foobar (especially while also using other apps). 

 Anyhow, I consider the occasional hung-up on using Hiface as a minor inconvenience and prefer this rather than re-sampling in foobar.

 In my earlier configuration using ASIO4ALL, I also used to have an annoying “click” each time I jumped forward or back in a track (or manually changed track). With the Hiface driver, I have noticed that this “click” is gone and there is smooth transaction when moving between or within tracks.


----------



## regal

Anyone have the link to the DIYaudio thread where they modified the powersupply and added I2S output?


----------



## paaj

the Macbook plays flawless, also wireless content, so it is not the HiFace itself. 
 Tried re-installing the driver but didn't help, maybe a lower version and I guess I could try a Snow Leopard re-install...


----------



## glt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have the link to the DIYaudio thread where they modified the powersupply and added I2S output?_

 

PS mods: Music Server Computer transport - Hop On! - diyAudio

 I2S: H I F I D U I N O: Musiland I2S

 Sorry, wrong device 

 Hiface mods: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...hz-asynch.html


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ulfp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Earlier, I sometimes configured my Xonar for 96k and re-sampled in foobar to 96k to match (using SSRC, SSRC-X or PPHS). Somehow this config did not “feel” quite right as my 44k and 88k music then was re-sampled to 96k (my Xonar soundcard did not support 88). Cant say I could hear a whole lot of difference, but IMHO it does not “feel” right to re-sample 88 to 96. In addition, my PC is old and not very high-end and there was a higher tendency for drop-outs when using re-sampling in foobar (especially while also using other apps). 

 Anyhow, I consider the occasional hung-up on using Hiface as a minor inconvenience and prefer this rather than re-sampling in foobar.

 In my earlier configuration using ASIO4ALL, I also used to have an annoying “click” each time I jumped forward or back in a track (or manually changed track). With the Hiface driver, I have noticed that this “click” is gone and there is smooth transaction when moving between or within tracks._

 

Use SoX and set target rate to 88.2, this way your 88khz files will be untouched. SoX also less demanding on resources than other resamplers.
Resampler plugin - Hydrogenaudio Forums

 You can also set a list of frequencies you want to bypass resampler
Resampler plugin - Hydrogenaudio Forums


----------



## ulfp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can also set a list of frequencies you want to bypass resampler
Resampler plugin - Hydrogenaudio Forums_

 

Thanks. 

 Did'nt know there was selective bypass. Will give it a try.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Macbook plays flawless, also wireless content, so it is not the HiFace itself. 
 Tried re-installing the driver but didn't help, maybe a lower version and I guess I could try a Snow Leopard re-install..._

 

This pops/clicks problem on OS X is known, they are working on it.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sebhelyesfarku* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This pops/clicks problem on OS X is known, they are working on it._

 

I am running for a few weeks now the 1.03.3 driver at 32bit/192kHz and don't get any pops/clicks!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

has anyone tried this with OSX 10.4? i got an email from hiface telling me they released Tiger drivers, was hoping someone had given it a shot


----------



## athenaesword

has this now gotten support for direct sound?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone tried this with OSX 10.4? i got an email from hiface telling me they released Tiger drivers, was hoping someone had given it a shot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What's your OS?
 The Tiger driver is not suitable for 10.5 or 10.6 I checked this with Marco.
 If you run 10.4 it's OK, otherwise I suggest you don't use it.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has this now gotten support for direct sound?_

 

This is a Mac driver for an older version of the Mac OS.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's your OS?
 The Tiger driver is not suitable for 10.5 or 10.6 I checked this with Marco.
 If you run 10.4 it's OK, otherwise I suggest you don't use it._

 

yeah ive got 10.4, but the driver just came out, i was just curious if anyone had given it a shot, wondering if there were any problems with it.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a Mac driver for an older version of the Mac OS._

 

so with windows can i play youtube?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so with windows can i play youtube?_

 

I am sorry I am only using/testing Mac Drivers.

 Ask Marco, he'll answer all your questions promptly and accurately.


----------



## macrog

The Hiface only seemed to take a couple of days to reach its best (I know some people don't believe in burn in)

 The differences between the musiland and the hiface are subtle.

 The musiland drivers are more stable. I have had to unpug the hiface and plug it in again at least every couple of days when it stops working. The musiland has only played up about 3 times since I bought it 4 months ago (static through right channel which hasn't happened since firmware & driver upgrade)

 The Hiface is more detailed but perhaps a little more sterile in its presentation (I dont think I find the Hiface quite as emotionally connected to acoustic music).

 Image is definitely better on the Hiface (higher and with depth information not apparent on musiland. The hiface definitely does decay on instruments way better.

 Bass I'm not sure the musiland is probably the deeper in the bass but it may just be less detailed in the bass. I think that the less detailed sound of the musiland sometimes sounds warmer and more inviting.

 I like the musiland software control panel with its choice of sample rates etc.

 There is no software control panel for the Hiface

 The first day or two with the Hiface I was awe struck with the sheer detail now I think I want to keep both.

 I think the Hiface is the better one but still choose to listen to some music through the musiland as well at times and enjoy it immensely. I might get a bnc terminated hiface and see if it sounds any better from bnc into the bnc input of my audio-gd reference 1 dac.

 macrog


----------



## helian

I've searched a few pages back but didn't find any info, so I'm asking here, is there
 any news on the linux driver ?



 -helian


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The musiland drivers are more stable. I have had to unpug the hiface and plug it in again at least every couple of days when it stops working._

 

Are you on Mac? I have it non-stop on Vista for over a month in two systems (32 and 64bit) and have never had any issues.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you on Mac? I have it non-stop on Vista for over a month in two systems (32 and 64bit) and have never had any issues._

 

I am running windows XP 32bit. I have made no other software hardware changes since installing the Hiface

 I am pleased that your Hiface has been so stable. Not my experience so far.

 I have no regrets having bought it though

 Macrog


----------



## glt

macrog, that's a nicely written review. It would be interesting to do the comparison again when Musiland releases the 44.1K only driver that they are currently developing.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_macrog, that's a nicely written review. It would be interesting to do the comparison again when Musiland releases the 44.1K only driver that they are currently developing._

 

That driver has been talked about for a long time (? vapourware).

 I wonder myself if a new version of the musiland hardware with reclocking chips like the Hiface but still with a psu rather than usb bus powered like Hiface. Equally Hiface could do this.

 I would happily pay twice the current prices for something like this that performed.

 Anyone got any prototypes they want tested?

 Macrog


----------



## punk_guy182

I'm willing to be a beta tester also. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm looking for the best way to get a S/PDIF signal through a BNC plug from my computer to my DAC without paying 500$.
 HiFace seems like a good option but I'd like to wait a little more for something to come out that is considerably than the HiFace for the same price.


----------



## glt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That driver has been talked about for a long time (? vapourware).

 ...
 Macrog_

 

A couple of days ago in a post in the musiland forum it was indicated that the driver is almost ready...


----------



## macrog

Excellent news. Keep us updated.

 Macrog


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That driver has been talked about for a long time (? vapourware).

 I wonder myself if a new version of the musiland hardware with reclocking chips like the Hiface but still with a psu rather than usb bus powered like Hiface. Equally Hiface could do this.

 I would happily pay twice the current prices for something like this that performed.

 Anyone got any prototypes they want tested?

 Macrog_

 


 I'm still working on prototype Pace-Car USB that uses M2Tech USB interface. This has everything you want and more. The problem is that it will be a lot more than twice the price. A stock Pace-Car is $1250.00

Async 192 USB upgrade to Pace-Car 2

 Look at it this way, the USB to S/PDIF converter from dCS is $4999.00 and only supports 24/96.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still working on prototype Pace-Car USB that uses M2Tech USB interface. This has everything you want and more. The problem is that it will be a lot more than twice the price. A stock Pace-Car is $1250.00

Async 192 USB upgrade to Pace-Car 2

 Look at it this way, the USB to S/PDIF converter from dCS is $4999.00 and only supports 24/96.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

At the end of the day if it sounds significantly better I would buy it. The Hiface is incredible value and should cost a lot more as should the musiland monitor 02us.

 I cant resistgear that gets me closer to the music.

 macrog


----------



## hawkhead

Here's my brief impressions (posted originally in Dedicated source components)

 My setup apart from the sig gear is Windows 7 64bit using Foobar with FLAC's extracted via EAC. I am using a Blue Jeans Cable digital interconnect 1m long. Musiland is running the 1.0.0.7 driver

 Firstly some of the negatives with the Hiface:

 It sticks a long way out of the back of my PC (I don't want to use the front ports since the wires to them go through the PC) especially after adding the fairly stiff BJC cable.

 I cannot use the USB port adjacent to the Hiface any more.

 Now onto the software

 I installed 1.02 drivers which went without a hitch but it does not show as a device in Audio only device manager. You must also download the Kernel streaming component for Foobar. You cannot as yet use this in Media Monkey. Foobar is slightly unresponsive when using the Hiface (though not with the Musiland 01 USD)

 How does it sound ?
 The 01 USD and Hiface are similar but the Hiface is definitely more resolving - you can hear this at the beginning of EVA Cassidy's People get ready especially on the cymbals. The guitar on Clapton's Tears in Heaven sounds less veiled on the Hiface.
 Bass is similar in quantity on both but the Hiface seems better controlled.
 On Creed - A thousand faces the Hiface was more coherent and airy when the track got busy.

 I did my listening with HF-2's

 I shall be keeping the Hiface


----------



## athenaesword

does anyone know if the drivers that allow ds on windows 7 is out?

 edit: ah... just read hawkhead's post, and it appears that such a capability is still beyond the hiface.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does anyone know if the drivers that allow ds on windows 7 is out?_

 

Not at all! They're apparently working on it.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not at all! They're apparently working on it._

 

shucks.... that's the only thign holding me back from grabbing one right now. and i kinda desperately need a transport. hurry up in there m2tech!


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_shucks.... that's the only thign holding me back from grabbing one right now. and i kinda desperately need a transport. hurry up in there m2tech!_

 

I see that your DAC has TOSlink input also, Why not use it for your other audio applicationand keep the RCA input for Foorbar200 w/ KS via the HiFace.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see that your DAC has TOSlink input also, Why not use it for your other audio applicationand keep the RCA input for Foorbar200 w/ KS via the HiFace._

 

the ori dac has toslink disabled so the only input available is the RCA.


----------



## endless402

just got my m2tech. very happy with it

 time to update my sig hehe

 cleaner than my m-audio so far. listening to complex jazz


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still working on prototype Pace-Car USB that uses M2Tech USB interface. This has everything you want and more. The problem is that it will be a lot more than twice the price. A stock Pace-Car is $1250.00

Async 192 USB upgrade to Pace-Car 2

 Look at it this way, the USB to S/PDIF converter from dCS is $4999.00 and only supports 24/96.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 







 At least dCS innovates instead of just replacing power supplies, superclocks, etc. And you don't need to be on the level of $5k to innovate, M2tech did it at just $150. Without mass production too.


----------



## macrog

I think at the end of the day the market will decide and companies that produce crap (with the exception of Bose whose marketing appears to overcome crap products) generally dont survive.

 I am always keen to get a bargain but if I have to pay more to get something that truly sets a new benchmark so be it. 

 The Hiface is great but how good could it have been with less compromises?

 Macrog


----------



## ondesx

Hi Folks,

 I tried the last driver for the HiFace from Marco (i. e. 1.03.5) but I still have clicks and pops (though a lot less...). Hope they will ASAP solve this driver issue for MAC OS...


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ondesx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Folks,

 I tried the last driver for the HiFace from Marco (i. e. 1.03.5) but I still have clicks and pops (though a lot less...). Hope they will ASAP solve this driver issue for MAC OS..._

 

Is this a Beta driver?
 I don't get any clicks/pops with 1.03.3.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 At least dCS innovates instead of just replacing power supplies, superclocks, etc. And you don't need to be on the level of $5k to innovate, M2tech did it at just $150. Without mass production too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Are you saying that I dont innovate? I'm insulted. You have no concept as to what is in my products. The fact that I use Superclock and Ultraclock points to the fact that every designer cannot be an expert at every aspect of the design. What you dont know is that I actually helped Audiocom with the latest Ultraclock and also made a small change to the Superclock4. I let others that have more experience in these areas do a better job, and I do a better job in the areas where I'm an expert. This is simply smart design practice. This is also why I am planning to use M2Tech technology. I'm no software expert, I'm a hardware expert.

 If my products are not innovative, then how is it that my Overdrive DAC got rated "best USB DAC" and my Off-Ramp 3 with Ultraclock got rated "best USB converter" in the February issue of TAS?






 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## rosgr63

Steve I wouldn't loose any sleep over somebody's comments.
 There are those who know and that's what counts.


----------



## ondesx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this a Beta driver?
 I don't get any clicks/pops with 1.03.3._

 

But this isn't the case for some of us... Unfortunately ! The manufacturer is aware of this issue and is working on it, but for now they're unsuccessful.

 And of course, I got much more clicks & pops with the previous versions... Obviously !


----------



## rosgr63

What DAC are you feeding?


----------



## paaj

I've got the same problem (probably, unless there are more clicking problems). Both in VDA2 and M192. Only on my Mac Mini, not from my Macbook.
 It does seem better, but still there very obviously.

 I really hope it is fixable, after switching back to a (very cheap) optical I was very surprised to actually hear the difference, so far for my 'digital is digital' thinking. Much duller sound from the optical cable.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got the same problem (probably, unless there are more clicking problems). Both in VDA2 and M192. Only on my Mac Mini, not from my Macbook.
 It does seem better, but still there very obviously.

 I really hope it is fixable, after switching back to a (very cheap) optical I was very surprised to actually hear the difference, so far for my 'digital is digital' thinking. Much duller sound from the optical cable._

 

paaj I can't hear much difference between Mac Optical and Mac USB/hiFace/Coaxial in my system.


----------



## ondesx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What DAC are you feeding?_

 

Source MBPro and DAC is a stage IV moded By Rick Cullen PS Audi DLIII...


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_paaj I can't hear much difference between Mac Optical and Mac USB/hiFace/Coaxial in my system._

 

hi rosgr what gear are you using with the hiface?


----------



## rosgr63

MacBook Pro => USB Hub (Terrible I know!) => hiFace => Stereovox XV2 (RCA) => North Star Design 192 MK2 (Balanced) => Nordost Heimdal (Balanced) => Rudistor PRO10B MK2 (Balanced) => Grado GS1000 (Balanced)


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I let others that have more experience in these areas do a better job, and I do a better job in the areas where I'm an expert. This is simply smart design practice. This is also why I am planning to use M2Tech technology. I'm no software expert, I'm a hardware expert.

 If my products are not innovative, then how is it that my Overdrive DAC got rated "best USB DAC" and my Off-Ramp 3 with Ultraclock got rated "best USB converter" in the February issue of TAS?_

 

Being compared with last February's "best USB converter" is nice compliment for hiFace. Especially if you consider the price difference.

 If I understood correctly, you'll take hiFace base, swap it's crystals with Audiocom clocks, give it a nice and clean external power supply (or 2-3 separate ones) and put everything in nice black Off-Ramp 4 enclosure?

 Innovative or not, I foresee others doing similar things for far less money. M2Tech probably first, giving they own basic design, firmware and drivers.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MacBook Pro => USB Hub (Terrible I know!) => hiFace => Stereovox XV2 (RCA) => North Star Design 192 MK2 (Balanced) => Nordost Heimdal (Balanced) => Rudistor PRO10B MK2 (Balanced) => Grado GS1000 (Balanced)_

 

have you tested without the usb hub before? your experience seems contrary to the many rave reviews about the device, and i'm quite interested in procuring one so it's good to have realistic expectations.


----------



## rosgr63

Yes I have, but could not find much difference, so I use my USB hub now.
 Mind I really like the hiFace, that's why I am keeping it.
 Marco of M2Tech is a great guy.
 Don't forget that the last part of the equipment chain is perhaps the most important of all (EARS).
 Maybe that's where the difference is. Mine are old, well used possibly worn out!


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Being compared with last February's "best USB converter" is nice compliment for hiFace. Especially if you consider the price difference._

 

The review is in Feb. 2010 TAS issue, just on the newsstands.

  Quote:


 If I understood correctly, you'll take hiFace base, swap it's crystals with Audiocom clocks, give it a nice and clean external power supply (or 2-3 separate ones) and put everything in nice black Off-Ramp 4 enclosure? 
 

The Pace-Car USB is much more than that. It is a complete third-generation reclocker with the M2Tech USB interface on the front-end. See my link for more details:
Async 192 USB upgrade to Pace-Car 2

 The Off-Ramp 3 will be upgraded from my current CEntrance USB module to a new async 192 module in late spring. Only the module is replaced and the clocks updated.

  Quote:


 Innovative or not, I foresee others doing similar things for far less money. M2Tech probably first, giving they own basic design, firmware and drivers. 
 

The design can be licensed.

 I happen to be good at the digital hardware piece, and particularly taking it to the limit of performance. M2Tech can do the software/firmware part. It's the combination of these expertises that produces an exceptional no compromises, cost no-limit product. My Pace-Car is already there, one of the best digital sources. Several of my customers have had shootouts and it leaves all others in the dust. When I add the M2Tech USB interface, it will be a stand-out product, equivalent to what I already have using the Pace-Car 2 with Lynx AES16 or Fireface400. It's the convenience and neatness of having the USB interface integrated that is better, not the sound quality. I already have the SQ with the Pace-Car 2.

 The high-quality parts and complex design that I use is simply not possible for a low price, try as they will. It's like trying to do a really cheap turntable and cartridge that is a giant-killer. Very difficult. Performance costs. Just the bare PC board alone costs about $50. With the usual 5X multiplier, this puts the price already above most cheap solutions. The only reason that I can sell it at the price that I do is that I dont sell through dealers, only direct. I'm also evaluating the possibility of Hynes regulator options. These are not cheap.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## mmerrill99

For those that might be interested I modded the HiFace along these lines
 - providing a clean 3.3V clock supply
 - providing a clean 3.3V CPLD supply
 - providing a clean 5V DIT supply
 - tapping the I2S signal to a local ESS DAC

 Report/pics here M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 13 - diyAudio


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The review is in Feb. 2010 TAS issue, just on the newsstands._

 

Sorry, I don't know why I deducted the review was from last (2009) february and not upcoming one.

 As for my prediction - I just said many will try because the development path is clear and market demand is growing. Will the best product be "hiFace de Luxe", "Diverter HD", "Monitor 03 Turbo", "USB UltraLink", "TeraLink-XXX" or "Off-Ramp IV" - it does not matter in the bottom line. Users win in any case: greater number and variety of new and improved products, better understanding of (and less snake-oil around) the topic.


----------



## audioengr

Here are the things that make the Pace-Car USB unique:

 1) USB has galvanically isolated ground, even with I2S output
 2) optimum master clock frequency for 192 - best for sound quality and critical for I2S (not available with HiFace)
 3) I2S output, optional AES/EBU output
 4) Superior clocks - Standard, Superclock4 and Ultraclock
 5) Separate isolated power supply for FIFO output, optionally LI battery
 6) Still maintains full functionality of original Pace-Car for use in Mode 1, 2 and 3. Inputs are USB, S/PDIF coax and Toslink

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for my prediction - I just said many will try because the development path is clear and market demand is growing._

 

Many have tried for years to compete with the Off-Ramp to no avail. Someone has to offer something on the bleeding edge, no compromises.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## FauDrei

Personally, and to be completely honest, I didn't know converters were an issue at all until I got Musiland's device and compared it to my previous standard reference - HagUSB. Thanks to such affordable new entries on this field and audio communities like this one, many others will, like me, realize the importance of such computer transports.

 Being a software engineer, I would stress the importance of the drivers and firmware of such devices. So far, "no drivers required" approach was seen as an advantage, which is absurd: "one fits all" driver policy for your $1K converter and for $30 external USB audio-something? Don't think so: a well implemented proprietary device controlled and preferably asynchronous low latency driver can make audible SQ improvement.

...and I beg to differ on "no compromises" approach: many will settle on a couple of $25 precision clocks instead on couple of $300 ones, both with specified jitter around 1,5 ps RMS. Of course, we can assume which ones are better... but 12 times better?!?


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you saying that I dont innovate? I'm insulted. You have no concept as to what is in my products. The fact that I use Superclock and Ultraclock points to the fact that every designer cannot be an expert at every aspect of the design. What you dont know is that I actually helped Audiocom with the latest Ultraclock and also made a small change to the Superclock4. I let others that have more experience in these areas do a better job, and I do a better job in the areas where I'm an expert. This is simply smart design practice. This is also why I am planning to use M2Tech technology. I'm no software expert, I'm a hardware expert.

 If my products are not innovative, then how is it that my Overdrive DAC got rated "best USB DAC" and my Off-Ramp 3 with Ultraclock got rated "best USB converter" in the February issue of TAS?






 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

I haven't seen a single innovative product from Empirical Audio, including your new Pace-Car. You are a modder from the day one.

 From M-Audio Transit in your first PaceCar/Offramp, then to modding Benchmark DAC1, then to your own implementation of Centrance USB after you found out how Benchmark did it, and now M2tech HiFace. There is nothing wrong with this of course, but its just silly to call Empirical Audio innovative. Being featured or not as the best product in a magazine is irrelevant, just like your blunt marketing in a non-MOT thread ("Many have tried for years to compete with the Off-Ramp to no avail").

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here are the things that make the Pace-Car USB unique:

 1) USB has galvanically isolated ground, even with I2S output
 2) optimum master clock frequency for 192 - best for sound quality and critical for I2S (not available with HiFace)
 3) I2S output, optional AES/EBU output
 4) Superior clocks - Standard, Superclock4 and Ultraclock
 5) Separate isolated power supply for FIFO output, optionally LI battery
 6) Still maintains full functionality of original Pace-Car for use in Mode 1, 2 and 3. Inputs are USB, S/PDIF coax and Toslink

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

All of these are just mods, almost any capable manufacturer can do the same if they decide to get into that upper highend segment. HiFace could have done it if they wanted it. I bet there are dozens of modders at DIYAudio and even here at HeadFi who can take the HiFace and mod it with a superclock, power supply, etc. Its not innovation when all you do is look for compromises and replace with much more expensive and possibly better sounding components. Its a business. A modding business. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Being unique doesn't make you innovative.


----------



## mmerrill99

That's why I posted my link to my modded HiFace - to show how these units can achieve great sound with mods that are not too difficult or expensive! I don't claim to be an innovator 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!

 I have to say I was was cautioned by Mr Nugent about tapping the I2S out of this unit as it was non-standard, wouldn't work with every DAC & Marco was working on it - a claim that Marco refuted when I emailed him!


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's why I posted my link to my modded HiFace - to show how these units can achieve great sound with mods that are not too difficult or expensive! I don't claim to be an innovator 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





!

 I have to say I was was cautioned by Mr Nugent about tapping the I2S out of this unit as it was non-standard, wouldn't work with every DAC & Marco was working on it - a claim that Marco refuted when I emailed him!_

 

did you hear much of a difference though pre and post mod?


----------



## rosgr63

Bear in mind if you carry out any mods you void the makers warranty.
 Some of the mods may require good DIY skills which I am sure John has!


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ondesx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Folks,
 I tried the last driver for the HiFace from Marco (i. e. 1.03.5) but I still have clicks and pops (though a lot less...). Hope they will ASAP solve this driver issue for MAC OS..._

 

Same here, on fresh install of Snow Leopard and also on Tiger. I got some mail from Marco saying that it's maybe a problem with specific Apple machines as he got reports that some people had the clicks and pops even in Windows/Bootcamp on the same machine. On the other hand I saw reports that in Bootcamp there are no clicks and pops... so the situation is messy, I hope there will be a clear solution. If you have Windows you may try to install it with Bootcamp to check it out...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_did you hear much of a difference though pre and post mod?_

 

Big improvement in sound when supplying a clean 3.3V to the clocks. If I was asked to nominate one single mod that was easy but had the biggest impact, this would be it. Requires the removing of a smd inductor chip at the edge of the board & supplying the 3.3V to the exposed pad or smd cap beside it.

 But remember that warranty is voided & don't attempt this if in doubt - it's a small tight layout & requires DIY confidence to attempt as rosgr63 stated.

 BUT, with these PS improvements the HiFace is shockingly good and you don't have to pay 1.000's to get this sound!


----------



## rosgr63

John you are a very experienced DIYer so for you it's very easy!
 BTW any chance we can see your photos please without becoming members to the DIYaudio forums?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John you are a very experienced DIYer so for you it's very easy!
 BTW any chance we can see your photos please without becoming members to the DIYaudio forums?_

 

x2.
 I'd like to see what the HiFace looks like when modded.


----------



## athenaesword

if it was so simple and garnered such a large improvement why would m2tech not implement it in their initial design? o.0


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Big improvement in sound when supplying a clean 3.3V to the clocks. If I was asked to nominate one single mod that was easy but had the biggest impact, this would be it. Requires the removing of a smd inductor chip at the edge of the board & supplying the 3.3V to the exposed pad or smd cap beside it.

 But remember that warranty is voided & don't attempt this if in doubt - it's a small tight layout & requires DIY confidence to attempt as rosgr63 stated.

 BUT, with these PS improvements the HiFace is shockingly good and you don't have to pay 1.000's to get this sound!_


----------



## Cortes

I guess nobody knows here... but anyone knows whether the M2tech would be an improvement over my current transport: Waveterminal u24?.

 best.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John you are a very experienced DIYer so for you it's very easy!
 BTW any chance we can see your photos please without becoming members to the DIYaudio forums?_

 

I seem to remember that the size limit of 97K on attached jpg files here makes pics not very useful - but anyway, heres' a pic showing the I2S socket (a DIP8 socket) glued to the top of the Xilinx chip (you can just see the fine wires carrying the I2S signal from the other side of the board & these connect to the 4 pins on the right side of the I2S socket - the left side pins are connected to ground).

 A Blue Oscon cap across the 5V supply coming in on the USB socket (I modded a cable to supply an external 5V) and the inductor removed from the PS supply to the two clocks (that's it sitting on the Bluetak & the pads with red dots are where it was removed from.) The red dot on the right of the pic is where we attach our 3.3V PS for the clocks (or the resistor beside it). 

 This PS mod to the clock is the one I suggest will give the best results.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if it was so simple and garnered such a large improvement why would m2tech not implement it in their initial design? o.0_

 

This question gets asked on practically every product that gets modded. I know, I used to mod everything.

 I cant read Marcos mind, but I imagine that this decision was taken mainly for these reasons:

 1) space constraints
 2) thermal considerations

 When you design something so compact, there are always constraints.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if it was so simple and garnered such a large improvement why would m2tech not implement it in their initial design? o.0_

 

Do you doubt my report? I presume they had a number of goals in mind & this wasn't one of them - maybe it wouldn't fit in with the product size they had planned? I have sent my results to Marco & he has acknowledged it. I'm hoping that it will improve the product - if he simply replaces the existing switching down-converters for lower noise ones it will help.

 A lot of people make the mistake that by providing a low jitter clock we get low jitter signals - in fact a really stable, dedicated low noise PS is also required for the clock. 

 I can now finally hear what low jitter sounds like - good analogue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: Steve, you got there before me! PS I'll email you about clock!


----------



## punk_guy182

I'm interested in mods on the hiFace with BNC output. Can you mod it while still keeping the casing or do you have to build another one? Might as well wrap the board in ERS paper.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't seen a single innovative product from Empirical Audio, including your new Pace-Car. You are a modder from the day one.

 From M-Audio Transit in your first PaceCar/Offramp, then to modding Benchmark DAC1, then to your own implementation of Centrance USB after you found out how Benchmark did it, and now M2tech HiFace. There is nothing wrong with this of course, but its just silly to call Empirical Audio innovative. Being featured or not as the best product in a magazine is irrelevant, just like your blunt marketing in a non-MOT thread ("Many have tried for years to compete with the Off-Ramp to no avail").



 All of these are just mods, almost any capable manufacturer can do the same if they decide to get into that upper highend segment. HiFace could have done it if they wanted it. I bet there are dozens of modders at DIYAudio and even here at HeadFi who can take the HiFace and mod it with a superclock, power supply, etc. Its not innovation when all you do is look for compromises and replace with much more expensive and possibly better sounding components. Its a business. A modding business. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Being unique doesn't make you innovative._

 

Modding is taking other companies products and making them sound better. I dont do this anymore. They are all my own designs. Modules for power regulation or clocks are just that, modules. IC's are just highly integrated modules also. 

 It's the design and implementation of these that makes a really outstanding product, such as the Off-Ramp or Overdrive. Design is much more that just putting modules and IC's together. If you were an engineer worth his salt, you would know this. You simply dont have a clue.

 Steve N.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested in mods on the hiFace with BNC output. Can you mod it while still keeping the casing or do you have to build another one? Might as well wrap the board in ERS paper._

 

ERS paper is not advised for digital circuits. It produces low-pass filtering, which increases jitter.

 Steve N.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested in mods on the hiFace with BNC output. Can you mod it while still keeping the casing or do you have to build another one? Might as well wrap the board in ERS paper._

 

Well, first you have to open the case - this is a two part case glued together - I could only open it by carefully cutting through the seam with a Stanley knife. This could be glued back together again but wouldn't look as pristine as the stock casing, I'm sure.

 If just doing the clock Power Supply mod then once the +3.3V wire is soldered to the point I specified & a ground wire soldered to nearest ground point, these two wires could be fed outside the unit (some small gaps around the BNC connector would do) & connected to your clean PS. (I use a LiFePO4 3.3V battery - about the same length as the hifac but a cylinder of about an inch diameter) 

 Indeed a switch could well be put in place so it was operational in stock form or from an external 3.3V supply


----------



## athenaesword

what makes you think i doubt your findings? on the contrary, i think it's great that people are looking for ways to improve on existing products. did marco mention anything about upcoming improvements? it would be a thrill to hear that improvements could be made based on enduser suggestions.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you doubt my report? I presume they had a number of goals in mind & this wasn't one of them - maybe it wouldn't fit in with the product size they had planned? I have sent my results to Marco & he has acknowledged it. I'm hoping that it will improve the product - if he simply replaces the existing switching down-converters for lower noise ones it will help.

 A lot of people make the mistake that by providing a low jitter clock we get low jitter signals - in fact a really stable, dedicated low noise PS is also required for the clock. 

 I can now finally hear what low jitter sounds like - good analogue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Edit: Steve, you got there before me! PS I'll email you about clock!_


----------



## mmerrill99

OK, it always seems like a doubting Thomas statement to hear that phrase "well if it was that easy why didn't XXX do it"

 Anyway, I doubt M2Tech will be changing anything - as Steve said there are many criteria to be adhered to & compromises that go into the manufacturing of a product.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what makes you think i doubt your findings? on the contrary, i think it's great that people are looking for ways to improve on existing products. did marco mention anything about upcoming improvements? it would be a thrill to hear that improvements could be made based on enduser suggestions._


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Modding is taking other companies products and making them sound better. I dont do this anymore. They are all my own designs. Modules for power regulation or clocks are just that, modules. IC's are just highly integrated modules also.


 It's the design and implementation of these that makes a really outstanding product, such as the Off-Ramp or Overdrive. Design is much more that just putting modules and IC's together. If you were an engineer worth his salt, you would know this. You simply dont have a clue.

 Steve N._

 

Don't do this anymore? So you're not going to take the M2tech HiFace, add a superclock, use dedicated power, galvanize something something, and snap it all in an Empirical Audio case. Wow, then it must be so innovative! A unique design indeed! 

 Just missing a few blunt marketing stunts all over audio forums.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_. (I use a LiFePO4 3.3V battery - about the same length as the hifac but a cylinder of about an inch diameter) _

 


 Thanks for trying this, I've been saying the PS on this needs work since day one.

 Do you have a socket for the battery? (and a part #), also how often do you have to recharge the battery?


----------



## Cortes

what's the size of the company M2Tech ?. How long has been in business?.

 I'm worried about the capability of supporting drivers and updates of this company in the future. We already had SinglePower, Xin, etc.


----------



## rosgr63

SinglePower cost a lot more than hiFace.
 Those of us who bought it took a risk, but EUR100 is not a huge amount and Marco is really nice. Hopefully he won't let us down.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SinglePower cost a lot more than hiFace.
 Those of us who bought it took a risk, but EUR100 is not a huge amount and Marco is really nice. Hopefully he won't let us down._

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it at $150 price point, at least it's a company, not some one man operation. And in a year or two there will be other, nicer converters. Things like these get outdated pretty quickly.


----------



## Sieg9198

Just received mine today, but sadly I cant get it working, my computer would freeze at the moment it tries to send data to the hiface.(or even at the moment I plug it in) Did anybody have the same problem?? I'm using windows xp 32 bit BTW.


----------



## hawkhead

Which driver are you using ?


----------



## Sieg9198

1.02.139

 And I tried it on my brother computer and I think it works fine since his computer didnt freeze(I didnt plug in the DAC to listen to it). It's really disappointing right now


----------



## mmerrill99

What is the make/model of the computer - I presume it support USB 2.0? Have you tried any other USB devices on it? Are any of them USB 2.0? HAve you tried other sound-cards with it?


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just received mine today, but sadly I cant get it working, my computer would freeze at the moment it tries to send data to the hiface.(or even at the moment I plug it in) Did anybody have the same problem?? I'm using windows xp 32 bit BTW._

 

*Finally* someone with the same problem I had! I emailed Marco about the issue on W7 x64 a few weeks ago and haven't heard anything since he said he was "sending it to his programmer."

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the make/model of the computer - I presume it support USB 2.0? Have you tried any other USB devices on it? Are any of them USB 2.0? HAve you tried other sound-cards with it?_

 

I've tried everything, and have concluded it's some sort of freak driver issue that needs to be resolved; Marco also said it was probably a driver issue.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1.02.139

 And I tried it on my brother computer and I think it works fine since his computer didnt freeze(I didnt plug in the DAC to listen to it). It's really disappointing right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yep, it worked on my laptop but not on my desktop with a 30-seconds-new Windows 7 install... frustrating.


----------



## Sieg9198

Oo, glad to hear there are ppl who have the same problem.(although it's not a good thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 mind telling me what is the spec of your computer?? I'm trying to rule out hardware conflict issue here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mine is an AMD Phenom II 955, Asus M4A78T-E mainboard, using the built-in graphic, 4GB DDRIII and 2x1TB hardisk running RAID 0.

 I sure hope it's the driver problem, at least there are hope of fixes for it


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oo, glad to hear there are ppl who have the same problem.(although it's not a good thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 mind telling me what is the spec of your computer?? I'm trying to rule out hardware conflict issue here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mine is an AMD Phenom II 955, Asus M4A78T-E mainboard, using the built-in graphic, 4GB DDRIII and 2x1TB hardisk running RAID 0.

 I sure hope it's the driver problem, at least there are hope of fixes for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Whoa, we have similar hardware!

 AMD Phenom II 720
 ASUS M4A78T-E Mobo
 Using onboard plus discrete graphics (3 monitors)
 2x2GB DDR3 1600
 3x1.5TB RAID 5 connected to a PERC 6/i

 When I emailed about the issue, I included a dxdiag so hopefully "Marco's programmer" is able to solve this if it's a hardware conflict.


----------



## Sieg9198

oh god that's not what I wanted to hear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The culprit is most likely the motherboard, and now seeing that we have the exact same model, chances are it's likely one of the problem. I should email Marco about this.

 Is there any other that is using this model of motherboard with hiFace?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: or rather, anyone who is using the hiface with a computer whose motherboard south bridge is consist of either of these three model SB600, SB700 or SB750.


----------



## hawkhead

OK bit of a wild suggestion:

 Have you the latest BIOS and chipset drivers for that motherboard ?


----------



## Sieg9198

yup


----------



## punk_guy182

If anyone wants to sell their hiFace: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/wt...ce-bnc-462475/


----------



## paaj

Why not buy a new one? $150 is pretty close to new price.


----------



## punk_guy182

hiFace w/ BNC + shipping to Canada via FedEX + crazy customs brokerage fees = >200$ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyhow, the good about this thing is the no need for a USB cable. I wish more converters could bypass the need for the investement for an expansive high quality USB cable in order to obtain good SQ.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey guys, I am using my comp true essence stx as digital source has someone compared this beautiful device whit it. If its better I would be very interested.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, I am using my comp true essence stx as digital source has someone compared this beautiful device whit it. If its better I would be very interested._

 

Yes I have run STX as coaxial digital source

 I found M2tech Hiface > musiland monitor 02us > Xonar essence ST > xonar essence stx as digital output from computer

 The musiland monitor 02us and st significantly outperformed the STX and the Hiface gives more detail again. The difference from the STX to musiland monitor 02us or ST was much larger though.

 Hope this helps

 Macrog

 P.S. I never got a convincing image out of the STX even when run as a coaxial digital output only.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

REally. Thats something... Only bad thing is the M2 has no linux drivers!!!!!


----------



## endless402

only cost me aboubt 170cdn for my hiface from tweekgeek. no customs / duties via fedex. got here in a week


----------



## SoFGR

helllo i'm interested in getting this for dac19mk3, i already use x-fi titanium via toslink as a transport since it's indespensible for my gaming needs 

 1) any shops for us europeans ? any bargains at the moment ? 

 2) how can i create a shortfcut for changing the default playback device in windows XP from x-fi to "USB DAC"(or whatever it's called in the device manager ) with the press of a button ?

 3) any news for a windows 7 driver ? 

 4) will i need ASIO4ALL or is this card asio compatible ? what about kernel streaming in foobar ? will i have to experiment with the buffer length ? will i be forced to use version 0.8.3 ? 

 5) I'm thinking of getting a belden 1694A since the stock coaxial cable is known to be bad, any other options in the 100$ range ?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoFGR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_helllo i'm interested in getting this for dac19mk3, i already use x-fi titanium via toslink as a transport since it's indespensible for my gaming needs 

 1) any shops for us europeans ? any bargains at the moment ? 

 2) how can i create a shortfcut for changing the default playback device in windows XP from x-fi to "USB DAC"(or whatever it's called in the device manager ) with the press of a button ?

 3) any news for a windows 7 driver ? 

 4) will i need ASIO4ALL or is this card asio compatible ? what about kernel streaming in foobar ? will i have to experiment with the buffer length ? will i be forced to use version 0.8.3 ? 

 5) I'm thinking of getting a belden 1694A since the stock coaxial cable is known to be bad, any other options in the 100$ range ?_

 

2 & 4) I am not aware of any shortcut to do what you are asking for. However, you can set your X-fi as your primary output and Select Kernel Streaming for the Hiface in Foobar. By doing so, you would be able to play games/watch movies with your X-FI and listen to music with foobar. You will still need to switch manually the digital inputs in your dac19mk3.

 You can use the official mode which is Kernel Streaming with foobar 0.8.3 or the new foobar v1.0 for example. The best sound I got in my set-up was using KS with foobar v1.0.
 if you wish to use ASIO4ALL, it worked for me in foobar, MediaMonkey and cPlay.
 FYI, I have windows xp media center, so I don't know how it works in Vista/Seven.

 5) The Belden 1694A is a very good cable for the money. It is better than the similarily priced Canare coaxial cable for example.
 However, in comparison to higher end cables (in the same configuration as yours : Hiface -> dac19mk3), I found out it lacked resolution and imaging precision. I have tried recently 4 different high end cables : Stereovox XV2 (sold a few weeks ago), Actinote (borrowed), Hifi Cables Sobek, Oyaide DB-510 (recently acquired). While each of those cables has different strengths, they all outperformed the Belden cable by a wide margin. Those cables cost between 130€ (Sobek) and 400€ (Actinote). But there seems to be a lot of interesting cables at around $100 that I haven't tried such as the Moon Audio Blue Dragon or the DH-Labs 75. (see here)


----------



## TheShaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoFGR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) any shops for us europeans ? any bargains at the moment ?_

 

As stated numerous times in this thread, you can buy direct from M2Tech. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 An added benefit is that they're based in EU (Italy) so you don't have to worry about customs.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have tried recently 4 different high end cables : Stereovox XV2 (sold a few weeks ago), Actinote (borrowed), Hifi Cables Sobek, Oyaide DB-510 (recently acquired). While each of those cables has different strengths, they all outperformed the Belden cable by a wide margin. Those cables cost between 130€ (Sobek) and 400€ (Actinote). But there seems to be a lot of interesting cables at around $100 that I haven't tried such as the Moon Audio Blue Dragon or the DH-Labs 75. (see here)_

 

What did you think of the Oyaide DB-510? I have heard that its build quality is very good but nothing in terms of SQ.
 I'm considering getting it but I'd like to see some feedback on the cable first.

http://www.kosmic.us/oyaide-db-510.html


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What did you think of the Oyaide DB-510? I have heard that its build quality is very good but nothing in terms of SQ.
 I'm considering getting it but I'd like to see some feedback on the cable first.

Oyaide DB-510 Digital Interconnect | KOSMIC.us_

 

It's a great cable, at a great price.
 I have it as well but have not done extensive testing yet.
 Joe Pittman at Kosmic.us provides first class service.


----------



## punk_guy182

Which BNC cable are you using with the HiFace and which would you recommend if you are not using the Oyaide DB-510?


----------



## StateRadioFan

The Stereovox VX-2 (discontinued) or the new VX-Ultra are very good coax cables with BNC termination


----------



## crowlie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh god that's not what I wanted to hear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The culprit is most likely the motherboard, and now seeing that we have the exact same model, chances are it's likely one of the problem. I should email Marco about this.

 Is there any other that is using this model of motherboard with hiFace?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: or rather, anyone who is using the hiface with a computer whose motherboard south bridge is consist of either of these three model SB600, SB700 or SB750._

 

I've had freeze problems with a laptop HP 6715b(SB600) and GA-MA78GM-US2H(SB700). Working great with my old Shuttle(P4 HT). I'm using Windows XP.


----------



## clar2391

I'm really liking what I'm reading about the USB interface. Can anyone recommend a 24/192 capable DAC that will take full advantage of the Hiface's sonic qualities. Under $500 would be great, but perhaps not possible. I've also been reading about the DacMagic and V-Dac, both of which could handle the coax output from the Hiface, but I believe that both are limited to 24/96 via coax.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crowlie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had freeze problems with a laptop HP 6715b(SB600) and GA-MA78GM-US2H(SB700). Working great with my old Shuttle(P4 HT). I'm using Windows XP._

 

The problem seems pretty clear to me... freezing issues on motherboards with AMD chipsets. How the hell could this get past testing though? Probably 1 out of 6 of their customers has an AMD mobo based on market share alone.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clar2391* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm really liking what I'm reading about the USB interface. Can anyone recommend a 24/192 capable DAC that will take full advantage of the Hiface's sonic qualities. Under $500 would be great, but perhaps not possible. I've also been reading about the DacMagic and V-Dac, both of which could handle the coax output from the Hiface, but I believe that both are limited to 24/96 via coax._

 

DAC-19DSP? It "only" does 96/24 like the others but is far better. Why do you even need 24/192, do you actually have tracks recorded at 192kHz?


----------



## educator

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crowlie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had freeze problems with a laptop HP 6715b(SB600) and GA-MA78GM-US2H(SB700). Working great with my old Shuttle(P4 HT). I'm using Windows XP._

 

I have also had freeze problems with a Sony Vaio FW laptop running Vista 64. I don't think it has an AMD mothrboard.


----------



## Bails

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoFGR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_helllo i'm interested in getting this for dac19mk3, i already use x-fi titanium via toslink as a transport since it's indespensible for my gaming needs 

 1) any shops for us europeans ? any bargains at the moment ? 

 2) how can i create a shortfcut for changing the default playback device in windows XP from x-fi to "USB DAC"(or whatever it's called in the device manager ) with the press of a button ?

 3) any news for a windows 7 driver ? 

 4) will i need ASIO4ALL or is this card asio compatible ? what about kernel streaming in foobar ? will i have to experiment with the buffer length ? will i be forced to use version 0.8.3 ? 

 5) I'm thinking of getting a belden 1694A since the stock coaxial cable is known to be bad, any other options in the 100$ range ?_

 


 I'm particularly interested in question 3. Has anyone heard anything about possible release dates for the windows 7 wasapi driver?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What did you think of the Oyaide DB-510? I have heard that its build quality is very good but nothing in terms of SQ.
 I'm considering getting it but I'd like to see some feedback on the cable first.

Oyaide DB-510 Digital Interconnect | KOSMIC.us_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a great cable, at a great price.
 I have it as well but have not done extensive testing yet.
 Joe Pittman at Kosmic.us provides first class service._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StateRadioFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Stereovox VX-2 (discontinued) or the new VX-Ultra are very good coax cables with BNC termination_

 

The Oyaide DB-510, which was pointed me by rosgr63 is truly an excellent cable. It is the most "analog sounding" digital cable I have listened to. What I mean by "analog sounding" is that it is free from grain and mid treble harshness unlike some other high end cables. It is very detailed and very natural sounding. 
 The Belden cable is also very smooth sounding but mainly because it glosses over details and smooths transients. 
 The Stereovox XV2 is a lot more detailed an open sounding than Belden (and lesser cables) but it had a slight metallic timber and it was a little too thin sounding for my system. I am sure that there are tube systems that could benefit from the extra clarity brought by the Stereovox XV2.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Oyaide DB-510, which was pointed me by rosgr63 is truly an excellent cable. It is the most "analog sounding" digital cable I have listened to. What I mean by "analog sounding" is that it is free from grain and mid treble harshness unlike some other high end cables. It is very detailed and very natural sounding. 
 The Belden cable is also very smooth sounding but mainly because it glosses over details and smooths transients. 
 The Stereovox XV2 is a lot more detailed an open sounding than Belden (and lesser cables) but it had a slight metallic timber and it was a little too thin sounding for my system. I am sure that there are tube systems that could benefit from the extra clarity brought by the Stereovox XV2._

 

Thanks for the info, please keep us updated.


----------



## hawkhead

@slim.a 

 I am really beginning to dislike you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well actually my it's my wallet

 Do you want to sell that Stereovox ?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@slim.a 

 I am really beginning to dislike you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well actually my it's my wallet

 Do you want to sell that Stereovox ?_

 

You are 2nd in line!


----------



## FauDrei

If your hiFace freezes you can try this:

Download DevCon command-line utility.
Extract _devcon.exe_ from downloaded self-extracting archive to a directory of your choice.
In the same directory create a batch file containing:
  Code:


```
[left]devcon disable "USB\VID_04B4&PID_930B*" devcon enable "USB\VID_04B4&PID_930B*"[/left]
```

...and each time hiFace freezes just run the batch file from step 3.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Oyaide DB-510, which was pointed me by rosgr63 is truly an excellent cable. It is the most "analog sounding" digital cable I have listened to. What I mean by "analog sounding" is that it is free from grain and mid treble harshness unlike some other high end cables. It is very detailed and very natural sounding. 
 The Belden cable is also very smooth sounding but mainly because it glosses over details and smooths transients. 
 The Stereovox XV2 is a lot more detailed an open sounding than Belden (and lesser cables) but it had a slight metallic timber and it was a little too thin sounding for my system. I am sure that there are tube systems that could benefit from the extra clarity brought by the Stereovox XV2._

 

I currently am using the BJC 1694 RCA coaxial cable (15Ft) and I'm considering upgrading to something significantly better.
 Putting the price aside, which would you recommend between the Oyaide DB-510 and the Stereovox XV2?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I currently am using the BJC 1694 RCA coaxial cable and I'm considering upgrading to something significantly better.
 Putting the price aside, which would you recommend between the Oyaide DB-510 and the Stereovox XV2?_

 

Putting the price aside, I would recommend the Oyaide DB-510.


----------



## Sieg9198

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crowlie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had freeze problems with a laptop HP 6715b(SB600) and GA-MA78GM-US2H(SB700). Working great with my old Shuttle(P4 HT). I'm using Windows XP._

 

That further confirms my speculation. I've already contacted Marco about this and provided him with information about the problem. Marco reply that he already passed the information to his programmer and they'll see what they can do. Fingers crossed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem seems pretty clear to me... freezing issues on motherboards with AMD chipsets. How the hell could this get past testing though? Probably 1 out of 6 of their customers has an AMD mobo based on market share alone._

 

The problem will only occur with devices that uses asynchronous transmission like the hiFace. Most device on the market doesnt use this type of topology so a lot of people does not have complain with the SB700 family. AMD realizes this problem but they claim that there are no workarounds for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If your hiFace freezes you can try this:

Download DevCon command-line utility.
Extract devcon.exe from downloaded self-extracting archive to a directory of your choice.
In the same directory create a batch file containing:
  Code:



		Code:
	

[left]devcon disable "USB\VID_04B4&PID_930B*" devcon enable "USB\VID_04B4&PID_930B*"[/left]


...and each time hiFace freezes just run the batch file from step 3._

 

From the command I'm assuming it just disconnect and reconnect the device right?? Unfortunately in our case when the hiFace freezes, it takes the computer together with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Based on my guess, currently the only way to avoid this problem is by using another USB 2.0 PCI/PCIe card. However do note that I have not tested it personally and I cannot guarantee that it'll work. :O


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the command I'm assuming it just disconnect and reconnect the device right?? Unfortunately in our case when the hiFace freezes, it takes the computer together with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes it disables and re-enables hiFace. This approach solved a couple of freeze-ups after standby/resume on my laptop.

 If computer freezes completely you can try physically disconnecting hiFace, but I suppose if it is low level HW related error - additional USB card would be the best solution.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That further confirms my speculation. I've already contacted Marco about this and provided him with information about the problem. Marco reply that he already passed the information to his programmer and they'll see what they can do. Fingers crossed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







 The problem will only occur with devices that uses asynchronous transmission like the hiFace. Most device on the market doesnt use this type of topology so a lot of people does not have complain with the SB700 family. AMD realizes this problem but they claim that there are no workarounds for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 From the command I'm assuming it just disconnect and reconnect the device right?? Unfortunately in our case when the hiFace freezes, it takes the computer together with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Based on my guess, currently the only way to avoid this problem is by using another USB 2.0 PCI/PCIe card. However do note that I have not tested it personally and I cannot guarantee that it'll work. :O_

 

Thanks for the suggestion but as the above states, resetting the device isn't the issue since it *always* freezes and basically takes your computer or atleast the audio with it.

 I'm hesitant to purchase a USB expansion card just to see if the device will work with it, it should just work to begin with when we're paying $130+ for it. I'd also conjecture that the same problem will occur if it is a chipset incompatibility issue since the chipset's also controlling the PCI-e bus.


----------



## Sieg9198

It's been only 5 days since I emailed Marco. I've also sent an email to Asus asking if there's anything they can do about it. They passed the related information to their related department and will update me as soon as possible. I'm waiting for response from either side. 

 However if there arent any response in another week I'll get an USB expansion card and I'll report back if it works or not


----------



## mmerrill99

Hey slim.a, just wanted to tell you I bought a HiFace & you are correct in your evaluation between it & the Musiland - stock the HiFace is better than the Musiland I would reckon it's about equivalent to the sound of my modded Musiland. But when the HiFace is modded it soars - the sound of low jitter=very good analogue! I've put a report here M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 18 - diyAudio

 some pics here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...ml#post2040507
 & if you go through the thread after this you will see Valeriano has also done this mod & confirms the sound

 I hope this has shaken off the Musiland fan-boy image you had of me


----------



## lgo51

Of course, I have to ask... have you tried a similar PS mod to any of the Musiland's ? Found my Monitor01USD got better SQ just by replacing the cheap electro's w/ Panny organic's and R&R'n the zip cord to the connectors for 75R mini-coax. DIRC that the 5v and 3.3v regs were linear on that? Anyway, just curious to know how far you went with that toy.

 Cheers


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey slim.a, just wanted to tell you I bought a HiFace & you are correct in your evaluation between it & the Musiland - stock the HiFace is better than the Musiland I would reckon it's about equivalent to the sound of my modded Musiland. But when the HiFace is modded it soars - the sound of low jitter=very good analogue! I've put a report here M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 18 - diyAudio

 some pics here: M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 13 - diyAudio
 & if you go through the thread after this you will see Valeriano has also done this mod & confirms the sound

 I hope this has shaken off the Musiland fan-boy image you had of me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 John, we can't see your photos, can you please make it easier for us non DIYAudio members?

 I am sure slim.a is not "branding" anybody!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lgo51* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course, I have to ask... have you tried a similar PS mod to any of the Musiland's ? Found my Monitor01USD got better SQ just by replacing the cheap electro's w/ Panny organic's and R&R'n the zip cord to the connectors for 75R mini-coax. DIRC that the 5v and 3.3v regs were linear on that? Anyway, just curious to know how far you went with that toy.

 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yep, I've modded the 01US as far as it will go - see here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...nto-sabre.html
  Quote:


 I started my recording of mods to the Musiland 01US USB DAC board here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...ml#post1955840

 I first focused on getting the most from the internal PCM1793 DAC that's on this board so my mods involved:
 - external USB power
 - changed digital decoupling caps for Oscons
 - changed 24MHz crystal for low jitter 24MHz Crystek clock
 - bypassed op-amp output stage & went direct from PCM1793 DAc Vouts to transformer


 But somebody told me I should open a separate thread. Seeing as I have just done another round of mods, I decided now would be a good time.

 I decided to experiment with the power supplies to the board so I cut some traces to isolate sections that I could then supply separately:
 - First I wanted to isolate the PS to the PCM1793 DAC
 - this has two PS a 3.3V digital & 5V analog supply
 - The PCM1793 DAC is at the end of a 3.3V supply that feeds the Cypress USB chip, the Xilinx FPGA - so I cut the trace just before the decoupling cap to the DAC
 - The 5V supply is provided through a circuit that has a dc-dc converter chip (NCP3063) - I cut the trace feeding the USB power to this circuit
 - I also lifted the + & - PS pins on the OP275 output op-amp as I was using output transformers anyway.

 So now I have the complete out stages isolated & they can be powered off also. 

 So now my total supplies to the board are:
 - external 5V through USB cable
 - 3.3V to clock
 - 3.3V to digital supplies of DAC
 - 5V to analog supplies of DAC
 This improved the sound some but I finally tried the cheap Sabre 2 channel Vout DAC (ES9022) board which I had tried before but found then that I had a lot of noise on it. Because I was now able to power off the output stage I was happier feeding I2S to the Sabre DAC. So I only need a 3.3V supply for the Sabre - I disconnected the 3.3V & 5V analog supply to PCM DAC. I don't believe I need an external USB supply anymore as it's only supplying the Cypress & FPGA chips - not as critically noise sensitive as the PCM DAC.

 This sounds far superior to the PCM1793 (not surprisingly, I guess) & there's no noise on it. It brings a much more natural, rich sound & there seems to be more resolution of detail which might have to do with the ESS jitter handling - hyperstream?. Sound now more divorced from the speakers. The output level is far higher than the Vout from the PCM1793 & The bass is now noticeably superior.

 So the Sabre is a good cheap DAC (I think it was $2-3?), I would recommend (not sure if you need a NDA though - I had one already for the ES9018). I'll be listening some more & will post some pics.

 In terms of bang for buck, I reckon this combo is dam good.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey slim.a, just wanted to tell you I bought a HiFace & you are correct in your evaluation between it & the Musiland - stock the HiFace is better than the Musiland I would reckon it's about equivalent to the sound of my modded Musiland. But when the HiFace is modded it soars - the sound of low jitter=very good analogue! I've put a report here M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 18 - diyAudio

 some pics here: M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 13 - diyAudio
 & if you go through the thread after this you will see Valeriano has also done this mod & confirms the sound

 I hope this has shaken off the Musiland fan-boy image you had of me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for your feedback jkeny, and I am glad you liked the m2tech. As for the mod, I believe that it can be further improved. I just don't have the skills to try the mod myself.

 Concerning fanboyism, I guess that now, we can both be accused of m2tech fanboyism


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John, we can't see your photos, can you please make it easier for us non DIYAudio members?

 I am sure slim.a is not "branding" anybody!_

 

I'm sorry but too many photos to re-host & resize for this forum because of size limitations here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It was a joke to slim.a


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for your feedback jkeny, and I am glad you liked the m2tech. As for the mod, I believe that it can be further improved. I just don't have the skills to try the mod myself._

 

 Tell me more about how it can be improved - I'm interested!

  Quote:


 Concerning fanboyism, I guess that now, we can both be accused of m2tech fanboyism 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

 I'm glad you got the joke


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was a joke to slim.a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I know John!


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tell me more about how it can be improved - I'm interested!_

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my statement. I wanted to say, that I believe that the stock hiface can benfit from modding. You have probably addressed many issues but I guess there is always room for improvement : better power supply, lower jitter clocks, better shielding, higher quality output transformer, better vibration control, ...

 Empirical Audio is coming up with a new model based on the m2tech hiface. It will probably provide many improvements but at a very high cost. I wish someone offered a "lighter mod" with some of the stuff you already put in your mod in a commercial enclosure. But maybe, it is just wishfull thinking ...


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry but too many photos to re-host & resize for this forum because of size limitations here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It was a joke to slim.a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Use imgur: the simple image sharer and copy the Forum codes. No size limits.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Use imgur: the simple image sharer and copy the Forum codes. No size limits._

 

OK, I'll try that - here's an image of the HiFace modded for I2S 

][/url]



 Edit: it seems to work fine - so what you see here is ESS DAC board at the top of the pic & HiFace with I2S socket glued to top of Xilinx chip.


----------



## mmerrill99

Underside of the ESS DAC showing the I2S socket






[/url][/IMG]


----------



## mmerrill99

HiFace with ESS DAC connected. I haven't got pics of the PS mods to show but you can see a red & black wire coming out of the USB connector for an external 5V supply


----------



## rosgr63

Nice work, thanks a lot John.
 Can you do brain surgery in your spare time?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work, thanks a lot John.
 Can you do brain surgery in your spare time?_

 

The cost of liability insurance is too high


----------



## slim.a

Great work jkeny! Is the ESS dac board that small or is it connected to something else ?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great work jkeny! Is the ESS dac board that small or is it connected to something else ?_

 

Yep, it's that small - it's their bottom of the range Vout DAC - it has the jitter reduction & hyperstream technology of the 32bit flagship DAC but not up to the SNR specs of it. As a result it's a simple implementation, as you can see, with only one 3.3V PS.

 Although it's not specifically specified for headphone use it drives my 70ohm Sony MDR with aplomb & this is the sort of role I envisage for it.

 I'll be using a ES9018 with this USB interface in my main system.

 Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?


----------



## lgo51

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, I've modded the 01US as far as it will go - see here: Musiland 01US USB DAC I2S into Sabre - diyAudio_

 

...and I'm guess'n that since you did not stop there, the HiFace betters your SQ and warrants the mod work


----------



## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, it's that small - it's their bottom of the range Vout DAC - it has the jitter reduction & hyperstream technology of the 32bit flagship DAC but not up to the SNR specs of it. As a result it's a simple implementation, as you can see, with only one 3.3V PS.

 Although it's not specifically specified for headphone use it drives my 70ohm Sony MDR with aplomb & this is the sort of role I envisage for it.

 I'll be using a ES9018 with this USB interface in my main system.

 Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?_

 

I'm interested and would like to hear more!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *.Sup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested and would like to hear more!_

 

You read my linked thread which contains the mods I did, pics & my short review? Valeriano also did the mods & reported on the clock PS mod near the end of the thread.

 I'm not sure discussing this sort of service is allowed on the forum so I'll have to read the rules before I say anything else or a moderator could pitch in & set me straight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PM me if I'm not allowed from discussing these issues here!


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?_

 

He, I'd be interested in hiFace with USB-B female socket in a nice box with a couple of lowest jitter clock boards, with as many high speed, low noise PS regulators as needed, and all that tied to a nice R-core shielded in the other part of the nice box. Oh yes... BNC and I2S (if there is such thing as standard I2S output connector/socket) outputs would be imperative. RCA and/or TOSLINK optional...

 Have we reached (half of) the Off-Ramp price yet?


----------



## mmerrill99

Faudrei,
 Are you being serious? 

 I'm not trying to compete with the Off_Ramp at $700 for the standard + $300 to $800 for an upgraded clock (which Steve says is needed) + $370 for I2S cable (Total of something $1500 to $2000) for 24/96 USB transport

 For $150 + mod price you will get a modded 24/192 USB transport which will reveal how low jitter the on-board clock actually is & how good this unit can sound.


----------



## FauDrei

Let's say half-serious JKeny. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am interested, but if this involves wires and batteries hanging around...


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Faudrei,
 Are you being serious? 

 I'm not trying to compete with the Off_Ramp at $700 for the standard + $300 to $800 for an upgraded clock (which Steve says is needed) + $370 for I2S cable (Total of something $1500 to $2000) for 24/96 USB transport

 For $150 + mod price you will get a modded 24/192 USB transport which will reveal how low jitter the on-board clock actually is & how good this unit can sound._

 

Don't underestimate your skills Jkeny, a lot of benjamins in Off Ramp's price are just markup.


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_......Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?_

 

I've already signed up!!!


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The cost of liability insurance is too high 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL, I thought that was a California thing!!!!


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?_

 

Very interesting, but you have to tell us more! Details, options, and comparisons.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: I'm thinking of offering a modding service for people who don't want to tackle these mods themselves - any interest - could include the ESS DAC ?_

 

Count me in John, at least it won't be as damaging to me as your brain surgery!


----------



## FauDrei

Technical question... (if Marco is around, this would be a question for him, but anyone who KNOWS the answer can jump in)

 You have hiFace (kernel streaming) and standard 16/44,1 CD music. In foobar2000 (foobar2000 is mentioned here just as example - it can be any music player that can vary the output data word length) you have 8-bit, 16-bit, 24-bit and 32-bit output data format options (8-bit output does not work because of KS plugin or hiFace driver... whatever - it doesn't matter).

 When you set foobar2000 output to 16-bit, hiFace receives just that - unaltered 16/44,1 data.

 When output is set to 24-bit, foobar2000 pads each 16-bit data word with additional 8 least significant zeroed bits and hiFace receives 24/44,1 data stream.

 When output is set to 32-bit, each data word is padded with 16 zeroed LSBs and hiFace receives 32/44,1 data stream.

 My question is: *What kind of SPDIF output stream hiFace produces in relation to three mentioned input data formats?
*
 Do we get same SPDIF data word lengths (16/44,1; 24/44,1 and 32/44,1) at the hiFace output, or there is a uniform SPDIF data word length that goes out in any case (f.e. 16-bit is expanded to 24-bit, 32-bit is truncated to 24-bit and hiFace always has 24-bit output)?

 This is quite important to me because I'm trying to understand and optimize the DSP capabilities of my DAC.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very interesting, but you have to tell us more! Details, options, and comparisons. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Ok, First the stock HiFace is an excellent product built with some particular goals in mind that I'm going to guess at here:
 - compactness (this makes it a bitch to mod)
 - portability; related to above but it also means that it takes it 5V supply from USB & regulates it down to 3.3V & 1.2V not unlike other USB transports
 - asynchronous USB - HiFace have written proprietary drivers which do the job
 - two low-jitter clocks in the right place

 The clocks & their implementation are the jewel in the crown of the HiFace but they are held back significantly by the PS.

 Modding details - The HiFace is modded to address this last point
 - the on-board 3.3V switching regulator is removed & the PS trace to the clocks is cut
 - I connect leads to now supply the clocks can their own independent 3.3V PS which should be as clean as possible. I use a 3.3V LiFePo4 battery which lasts for days possibly week(s), I haven't timed it. This is where the big jump in sound happens - clean PS to clocks allows their low jitter to be heard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 - I connect leads to supply the rest of circuit with 3.3V which also provides some increase in SQ.
 - Both of these PS may be combined, I haven't tested the effect of this.

 - I also modded the unit to tap out I2S because I'm using a 24bit ESS DAC - not their big kick-ass expensive one but the one that has an integrated output stage on board which gives 2V RMS output but also has the jitter reduction & other technology from it's bigger brothers. I use the output from this ESS DAC direct into my headphones, no caps or other, which provides an amazing sound. My headphones are cheap Sony MDR-XD200 (don't laugh) 70ohm impedance. I haven't heard this on decent cans yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will be using the HiFace on a 32bit ESS DAC board which is under test at the moment & will be launched in Feb. The modded HiFace will just plug into the board. 

 The SPDIF output of the HiFace is unaffected by the I2S mods & operate as normal delivering the low jitter sound that the PS mods have revealed.

 I2S is the native digital signalling used between chips (short runs) & as such is not meant to be used like SPDIF for external connection of devices . As a result there is no standard connector or cable - PSaudio are the only ones I know that are using I2S between their models & they use a HDMI cable & drivers & receivers to cover the cable length (I2S should only be used at < 6 inches, possibly even 2 inches)

 So, my I2S is really designed for my ESS DAC & the 32bit ESS DAC board in Feb.

 I need to organise a listening session with my local DIY & Golden Ear group but weather & holidays got in the way of this. maybe soon. However, on the DIYAudio thread that I linked to another member did these mods & independently concurred with what I said about it sounding like very expensive analogue with no digititis whatsoever. I'll dig out his post in a minute


----------



## mmerrill99

For those who haven't or don't want to follow my DIYaudio link I gave already http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...ml#post2048687, here's my review of the HiFAce mods:
  Quote:


 The HiFace has better clarity all through the frequency range
 - bass is amazingly textured & powerful
 - treble has an airiness to it
 - finer details are revealed
 - soundstage is deep & wide with venues & recording ambience being revealed clearly
 - as I said already, just like really good analogue, not a bit of digititis in it. Last night I listened for about 4 hours through headphones without a hint of harshness or headache 
 - This unit really is a killer when modded - I would love to hear others try it & report their impressions! It would be interesting to hear how it compares against some of the big ticket Transports/DACs (Ayre, Wavelength,dCs, etc) - I don't own or have access to these units 
 

Here's the link to Valeriano's post who did the clock mod (but not the other PS mod yet) M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - Page 23 - diyAudio

  Quote:


 anyway.. I confirm my initial impression.. battery supply on clocks makes a difference.. listening is really effortless.. super!
 my system now is: TP wolfson 8742 + aleph p.1.7 + F4 + fostex 103 sigma in tqwt box .


----------



## FauDrei

How will your mod look like physically (you'll have hiFace and...)?


----------



## mmerrill99

The final piece of information I want to give is how this effects the unit itself in terms of it's physical design & looks & portability.

 Obviously, with external power supply, the unit is less portable, I wouldn't suggest plugging it directly into the USB port (not a good idea anyway, in my opinion). 

 As far as the look, I haven't really worked on this for myself, but if only the PS mods are done then I believe it's possible that these wires can be brought out through the case & connected to sockets attached to the side of the HiFace's case (I'm working on this for Xdanny). The I2S mod cannot be cased in the existing case & would have to be raw or re-cased (which you would have to do). Hmm, maybe not - let me think about this one!

 Edit: Just saw we crossed posted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have a pic of a differently modded HiFace which will give you an idea - just have to find the link


----------



## mmerrill99

Found the image, it's from here: Audio Asylum Thread Printer
 The modifications in the picture are an attempt to clean up the 5V USB power that the whole system operates off. My mods don't rely on the quality of the USB power just on the quality of the external 3.3V power you supply. So the variability in sound with different PCs is somewhat eliminated (maybe totally eliminated?)
 I imagine my PS sockets will fit on either side of the wide end of the case.


----------



## mmerrill99

As I said I'm using this as a nice little USB headphone device using this HiFace & the ESS DAC plugged in via I2S. The ESS DAC is about half the size of the HiFace. No need for any amplification, the DAC does 2V RMS - too loud when turned up full using Foobar's vol control. I currently have the DAC mounted at right angles to the HiFace.


----------



## punk_guy182

That's the HiFace with the complete PS mod?
 That looks pretty decent. I can manage having that and I like the fact that you can avoid using a USB cable.
 I2S is not a necessity for me and I don't know if better clocks will improve SQ by a considerable margin. I wouldn't want to spend so much money on better clocks for a slight increase in SQ.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the HiFace with the complete PS mod?
 That looks pretty decent. I can manage having that and I like the fact that you can avoid using a USB cable.
 I2S is not a necessity for me and I don't know if better clocks will improve SQ by a considerable margin. I wouldn't want to spend so much money on better clocks for a slight increase in SQ._

 

No, i believe that is just a picture of a different mod, that used the existing PS, but cleaned it up a bit. His requires the use of an external battery


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the HiFace with the complete PS mod?
 That looks pretty decent. I can manage having that and I like the fact that you can avoid using a USB cable.
 I2S is not a necessity for me and I don't know if better clocks will improve SQ by a considerable margin. I wouldn't want to spend so much money on better clocks for a slight increase in SQ._

 

No, that's another mod done by another person - my mod would involve a white socket on each side of the case into which you would plug your external 3.3V power supply. It would probably be neater than the pic shown - I just posted this to give people an idea of how a modded HiFace looks (not mine) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: I crossed post with SoupR - yes, correct, Soupr but not necessarily batteries - any power supply of your choice will do but the cleaner, the better - I go for LiFePO4 batteries for their superior bang for the buck ($10)

 Edit: Oops, I didn't see the second part of your question/comment - I don't provide better clocks - just by supplying better PS to the existing on-board clocks really lets their low jitter sound shine. It's not a slight increase in sound but I'm probably biased & can wait on others to report their impressions. Lots of people talk about low jitter clocks but the real secret to low jitter is very low noise dedicated clock supply - only then will the clock specs be realised (the reported jitter figures in the datasheets are for such low noise supplies)


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, that's another mod done by another person - my mod would involve a white socket on each side of the case into which you would plug your external 3.3V power supply. It would probably be neater than the pic shown - I just posted this to give people an idea of how a modded HiFace looks (not mine) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: I crossed post with SoupR - yes, correct, Soupr but not necessarily batteries - any power supply of your choice will do but the cleaner, the better - I go for LiFePO4 batteries for their superior bang for the buck ($10)_

 

but im guessing a Sigma11 would be overkill??


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but im guessing a Sigma11 would be overkill?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't know, it's up to you - it's something that can be experimented with, using different clock PS supplies will certainly effect the sound. One of the most import aspect aspect of the supply is noise - the lower, the better. I don't know about impedance etc of the PS - I use my batteries without caps as they have <8mohm impedance (not many caps are this low an impedance).

 I haven't tried other supplies on the clocks other than the on-board switching supplies.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


 PSaudio are the only ones I know that are using I2S between their models 
 

Empirical Audio and Perpetual Technologies (formerly Audio Alchemy) also offer cabled I2S, but single-ended.

 Most digital interfaces can be converted to short external cabled without problems, particularly source-synchronous ones like I2S.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## tosehee

Phew.. Is m2tech even a m2tech now?  You guys seem to mod the heck out of it..


----------



## p2k

yeesh... that m2techenstein is downright scary looking. I love mine. I listen mostly to 16/44 and squeezing the turnip for the last drop is beyond my needs. Nice to see the theoretical become reality.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know, it's up to you - it's something that can be experimented with, using different clock PS supplies will certainly effect the sound. One of the most import aspect aspect of the supply is noise - the lower, the better. I don't know about impedance etc of the PS - I use my batteries without caps as they have <8mohm impedance (not many caps are this low an impedance).

 I haven't tried other supplies on the clocks other than the on-board switching supplies._

 

could you post a link to the batteries you are using?


----------



## punk_guy182

x2 Yeah I'd like to see the whole thing in action without the I2S also!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2 Yeah I'd like to see the whole thing in action without the I2S also!_

 

The I2S is only an option for the device to work with the ESS DACs (or with your own DAC if you are able to do the mods necessary to it?) - the low jitter HiFace comes from providing a clean power supply to the clocks & to a lesser extent to the Xilinx chip which performs mux & buffering for the clocks. So the SPDIF out from the HiFace is also low jitter as a result of the mods & can be connected to any DAC!

 Hi Steve, I see you're looking in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Did you post that clock to me yet? I wasn't aware of the other I2S products you mentioned, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## mmerrill99

BTW, can you headphone experts recommend a good value h/p that will reveal all that this set-up has to offer - one that beats the Sony MDR-XD200 for 50 euro?

 Also, I know I say that this ESS DAC drives my headphones directly but according to it's datasheet it shouldn't so does anybody know a DAC that is designed to drive headphones directly? Are my Sony headphones high sensitivity & this is why it works?

 I have tried a WM8051 DAC which can do it but it has 2.5V riding on it's output so requires a cap in line to block this DC. I never like the sound of caps & they become expensive. Transformers will do it, sound wonderful but are bulky & expensive.


----------



## Architeuthis

Hi, I'm a very new newbie (I figure that'll cover my ass in case I come up with something illogical).........

 The Hiface really looks intriguing as part of a decent pc audio setup....
 Am I correct in assuming that it doesn't work on its own and needs something like a DAC to go with it?
 I had been interested in a Xonar Essence ST, but I'd rather deal with something external.


----------



## hawkhead

Yes Hiface "just" send a load of bits out of the computer via USB. You then need a DAC via RCA/BNC cable (and an amp)


----------



## mmerrill99

I put it back in it's case & here's a pic. I don't think most people will need or know how to use the i2S socket which is the 8 pin thing sticking up from the top (Sorry M2Tech for defacing your case & removing your name - final version will be without I2S). The white power connections are on the side. Two separate 3.3V ps can be plugged in here or one supply can feed both. The plugs will only go in one way so no chance of reverse connection unless forced.

 Just back from a audio meeting where it was run through BNC into an Airtight amplifier , QUad ESL 989 speakers. Cooments were screwing Hell! Another person said they hadn't heard as good a sound out of PC. It beat the Lector CDP (with tube output stage) as this had some edginess in comparison to the HiFace - tubes had recently been changed on this! The owner was experiencing this edginess for a while now so maybe an unfair comparison.

 Didn't manage to listen to headphones as we didn't have a adaptor for the headphone lead!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Oh wow jkeny that looks really good. and sorry to bother you, but could you provide a link to the batteries you're using?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh wow jkeny that looks really good. and sorry to bother you, but could you provide a link to the batteries you're using?_

 

Where I bought mine no longer stock them but the newer versions are here on ebay - item no 190361322039 - The pic & the specs are correct in this link but I haven't bought from that listing so I'm not guaranteeing anything. Here's the specs:

 100% New A123 3.3V 2300 Li-Ion ANR26650M1A Battery
 Nominal Capacity: 2.3AH/PC

 Nominal Voltage: 3.3V

 Internal Impendence: 8 mΩ typical

 Recommended Charge : 3A to 3.6V CCCV 45min

 Recommended Fast Charge: 10A to 3.6V CCCV 15min

 Max Continuous Discharge: 70A 

 Max Peak Discharge: 120A

 Cycle Life at 10C discharge: 1000+

 Weight: 70 grams

 BTW, I'm listening to this through HD650 at about half volume on Foobar & it sounds wonderful to me but I need some experienced h/p users to listen & give me their opinions. But it proves the ESS DAC drives them easily - full volume is uncomfortable!


----------



## Architeuthis

I have a Dell Dimension 4550 PC from 2003...
 Apologies if I should be starting my own thread with these questions, but if it's not a problem.......
 -Will the Hiface work well with AudioEngine 5 powered speakers?
 -What are some DAC's that pair up well with the Hiface?
 -I can probably go close to $500.00 on a DAC, if it'll really increase sound quality, so something in that range.
 -Can I use Winamp?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Architeuthis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, I'm a very new newbie (I figure that'll cover my ass in case I come up with something illogical).........

 The Hiface really looks intriguing as part of a decent pc audio setup....
 Am I correct in assuming that it doesn't work on its own and needs something like a DAC to go with it?
 I had been interested in a Xonar Essence ST, but I'd rather deal with something external._

 

My advise to you better cover your walklet not your ass.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where I bought mine no longer stock them but the newer versions are here on ebay - item no 190361322039 - The pic & the specs are correct in this link but I haven't bought from that listing so I'm not guaranteeing anything. Here's the specs:
 !_

 



 What about a socket for the battery?, thats what I can't find.

 Thanks.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Technical question... (if Marco is around, this would be a question for him, but anyone who KNOWS the answer can jump in)

 You have hiFace (kernel streaming) and standard 16/44,1 CD music. In foobar2000 (foobar2000 is mentioned here just as example - it can be any music player that can vary the output data word length) you have 8-bit, 16-bit, 24-bit and 32-bit output data format options (8-bit output does not work because of KS plugin or hiFace driver... whatever - it doesn't matter).

 When you set foobar2000 output to 16-bit, hiFace receives just that - unaltered 16/44,1 data.

 When output is set to 24-bit, foobar2000 pads each 16-bit data word with additional 8 least significant zeroed bits and hiFace receives 24/44,1 data stream.

 When output is set to 32-bit, each data word is padded with 16 zeroed LSBs and hiFace receives 32/44,1 data stream.

 My question is: *What kind of SPDIF output stream hiFace produces in relation to three mentioned input data formats?
*
 Do we get same SPDIF data word lengths (16/44,1; 24/44,1 and 32/44,1) at the hiFace output, or there is a uniform SPDIF data word length that goes out in any case (f.e. 16-bit is expanded to 24-bit, 32-bit is truncated to 24-bit and hiFace always has 24-bit output)?

 This is quite important to me because I'm trying to understand and optimize the DSP capabilities of my DAC._

 

FauDrei, 

 I was wondering the same question myself. With Foobar v1.0 and Kernel Streaming, I have a very slight preference for 24 bits. But sometimes I am not even sure there is a difference between 24 and 32 bits output.

 However, it would be nice to know what kind of data stream the hiface outputs to the dac. Did anyone already ask Marco the question?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Architeuthis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a Dell Dimension 4550 PC from 2003...
 Apologies if I should be starting my own thread with these questions, but if it's not a problem.......
 -Will the Hiface work well with AudioEngine 5 powered speakers?
 -What are some DAC's that pair up well with the Hiface?
 -I can probably go close to $500.00 on a DAC, if it'll really increase sound quality, so something in that range.
 -Can I use Winamp?_

 

The Hiface is just a usb to spdif converter. You will still need a DAC with spdif input (rca or BNC).

 If you use a DAC you will have 2 choices to control the volume : in the digital domain with your media player (winamp, foobar, ...) or in the analog domain (with a preamp).
 There are some DACs that have variable output such as the audio-gd FUN that I recently reviewed here, or something like the StyleAudio Carat-Topaz.

 In my opinion, you should avoid the digital volume control as there is a possible loss of resolution if it is not done properly. Some high end DACs have digitally controled volume but they do it properly and have resolution to "spare" unlike entry level DACs.

 If you are just looking for a DAC on the 500 range, you can do a search in the Source forum, there are a lot of threads discussing DACs (such as this one : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/exc...ipping-462517/). All of them should work well with the Hiface.


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FauDrei, 

 I was wondering the same question myself. With Foobar v1.0 and Kernel Streaming, I have a very slight preference for 24 bits. But sometimes I am not even sure there is a difference between 24 and 32 bits output.

 However, it would be nice to know what kind of data stream the hiface outputs to the dac. Did anyone already ask Marco the question?_

 

I don't know if this is exactly the answer, but I think it might help. It's a response from Marco to an email I sent him a few months back:

_Hello Danny,

 when you use FooBar2000 with hiFace you need to installa the KS component from FooBar website in order to have hiFace working in KS mode. Otherwise, with the latest release of our driver, you can use it in direct sound mode. But I don't recommend it...
 When you use FooBar together with the KS component, I assure you that the file's original samples are passed untouched to hiFace, at every sampling frequency up to 192kHz (depending on the sampling frequency of the file itself, of course: no conversion is made by either FooBar or hiFace).
 .....................
 It is asymchronous. If you use it in kernel streaming mode (as most users do) it's bit-perfect, too._

 So, according to Marco, whatever hiFace gets from Foobar it passes untouched. 

 I hope this helps...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about a socket for the battery?, thats what I can't find.

 Thanks._

 

Do you mean a holder into which the batteries are fitted which is connected to the HiFace? I don't have such - here's a photo of the batteries attached.




 If you mean where's the socket for the external 3.3V (batteries or whatever else you wish) to the HiFace - it's the white socket at the side that you see the battery connect to.




 Here's the ESS DAC attached - I know it's uncased but it's driving HD650s beautifully! It shouldn't but it is? The red & black wire are for 3.3V supply(the same battery as above), the two core shielded black cable feeds the headphones directly, no amplifier, no caps, nada


----------



## SoupRKnowva

So im guessing you just soldered the wires directly to the battery?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So im guessing you just soldered the wires directly to the battery?_

 

Yep, with care, using a high power soldering iron & large tip. You can order the batteries with tabs pre-welded to the ends which makes soldering to them easy.

 If you want to know about these batteries & how to case them up you need to go to some of the remote control aircraft forums where they use these extensively in packs. I don't have a link.


----------



## hawkhead

Thinking out loud - what about this as an alternative to batteries ?

Adjustable DC Regulated Power Supply (CSI 1802X) [CSI 1802X] - £34.77 : Circuit Specialists Europe, circuit boards, soldering, PCB equipment, power supplies, test equipment

 any comments on the specifications ?


----------



## Zerotohero

Jkeny - what a great amount of work you have achieved!

 I'm very impressed.

 If i was to purchase a bnc hiface from you with your mods except for the dac and i2s connections, what would it likely cost to produce?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, it would be nice to know what kind of data stream the hiface outputs to the dac. Did anyone already ask Marco the question?_

 

Here is Marco's answer (hope he does not mind posting his answer):





> _S/PDIF has a fixed word lenght of 24 bits. So, when you listen to 44.1kHz/16bits files you always got 16bits + 8 zeroes no matter the output format you choose in FooBar.
> 
> Things are different when you listen to 24bit files: if you choose 16 bits out, you get 16bits + 8 zeroes, but if you choose another output format, then you get all the 24bits out._


So, no matter what we select for output data word length in our software media players, SPDIF always sends out 24-bit stream.

 Thanks to Marco, we too know that now.


----------



## rosgr63

So the 32bit data from the Mac driver gets truncated to 24bits by the hiface.
 I wonder why the Mac driver outputs 32bits and not 24bits.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which BNC cable are you using with the HiFace and which would you recommend if you are not using the Oyaide DB-510?_

 

For those interested in pairing their hiface with a good digital cable, I just wrote a review of the Oyaide digital cable with comparisons to other cables (Stereovox XV2, Belden, ...) here : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/oy...-cable-469313/


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those interested in pairing their hiface with a good digital cable, I just wrote a review of the Oyaide digital cable with comparisons to other cables (Stereovox XV2, Belden, ...) here : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/oy...-cable-469313/_

 

And what a fantastic review this is!
 Thanks for your effort, you never fail to amaze me!


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the 32bit data from the Mac driver gets truncated to 24bits by the hiface.
 I wonder why the Mac driver outputs 32bits and not 24bits._

 

As I understand it - every SPDIF interface does the same, this is not just hiFace's specific behavior.


----------



## mmerrill99

I'm listening to this through HD650 headphones directly connected to the ESS DAC's outputs, no caps, etc needed (the ESS DAC outputs 2V rms with no voltage bias). Everything sounds wonderful right through the frequency range - very much like heard on the QUAD ESL 989 speakers last night. The datasheet recommends a load >5Kohm but is not complaining with the HD650's impedance of 300ohm. 

 The vol in foobar cannot be turned up full as it's painful but as someone pointed out digital vol control is not the best idea in the world (it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect here, maybe because the system operates in 24bit mode even on 16bit material?).

 But my idea to kill two birds is to put a nice LDR vol control (fixed 27kohm R + shunt LDR) on the Vouts of the DAC bringing the DAC within it's comfort zone & dispensing with digital vol control. 

 A nice 24/192 USB transport + 24/192 DAC/headphone amplifier/LDR vol control? Whadya reckon?


----------



## punk_guy182

So is it better to always have Foobar output a 24bit signal even for for 16bit files?
 On an other note I am definetely getting the HiFace in March when M2Tech has it back in stock and this Oyaide cable.


----------



## FauDrei

@JKeny

 If you use "digital volume" you are really "lowering the digital amplitudes" and microdynamics will surely suffer. With good attenuator/pot (on a good headamp) and full unaltered digital signal you can enjoy the dynamic changes and details even on the lowest volumes.

 @punk_guy182

 By Marco's description of SPDIF standard it really should not matter whether you send 16-bit or 24-bit when listening CD quality music - resulting SPDIF output should be the same 24-bit stream. Perhaps 24-bit setting would be more practical: you would not have to switch output data word length if a 24/xxx track enters your playlist.


----------



## mmerrill99

I just hooked up a DIY tube based headphone amp that I borrowed last night (must get the details of it) & had a listen through it - I can't hear much, if any difference between this & direct from DAC. So I have digital vol control up full & use the h/p amp to control vol but no discernible diff. & it also tells me that the DAC is happy with the 300 ohm h/p load - all frequencies particularly bass was just as from the h/p amp full bodied & tight.

 Edit: I just found out the headphone amp that I borrowed is a Millet Hybrid max.


----------



## punk_guy182

That's kind of weird! You should hear a difference between your DIY DAC and a your tube headphone amp. The sound signature shouldn't be the same.


----------



## mmerrill99

Another test (I hope I'm not hogging this thread now?) I paralleled my Sony h/ps (70 ohm) with the HD650 (300ohm) for a load of 56ohm & there is the beginnings of some audible distortion being heard. So AKG701 (32ohm) would not be happy, I guess. 

 There is probably some distortion below 5K but I can't hear it. I guess putting a 27K LDR vol control before the h/p would solve this.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's kind of weird! You should hear a difference between your DIY DAC and a your tube headphone amp. The sound signature shouldn't be the same._

 

 Yep, but I can't hear any - I will be doing some more intensive tests with LDR vol control, AKG701s & an Aikido h/p amp sometime soon!

 All I know at the moment is that this is an amazing sounding portable USB transport/DAC/headphone driver (all running on batteries)


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm listening to this through HD650 headphones directly connected to the ESS DAC's outputs, no caps, etc needed (the ESS DAC outputs 2V rms with no voltage bias). Everything sounds wonderful right through the frequency range - very much like heard on the QUAD ESL 989 speakers last night. The datasheet recommends a load >5Kohm but is not complaining with the HD650's impedance of 300ohm. 

 The vol in foobar cannot be turned up full as it's painful but as someone pointed out digital vol control is not the best idea in the world (it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect here, maybe because the system operates in 24bit mode even on 16bit material?).

 But my idea to kill two birds is to put a nice LDR vol control (fixed 27kohm R + shunt LDR) on the Vouts of the DAC bringing the DAC within it's comfort zone & dispensing with digital vol control. 

 A nice 24/192 USB transport + 24/192 DAC/headphone amplifier/LDR vol control? Whadya reckon?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another test (I hope I'm not hogging this thread now?) I paralleled my Sony h/ps (70 ohm) with the HD650 (300ohm) for a load of 56ohm & there is the beginnings of some audible distortion being heard. So AKG701 (32ohm) would not be happy, I guess. 

 There is probably some distortion below 5K but I can't hear it. I guess putting a 27K LDR vol control before the h/p would solve this.

 Yep, but I can't hear any - I will be doing some more intensive tests with LDR vol control, AKG701s & an Aikido h/p amp sometime soon!

 All I know at the moment is that this is an amazing sounding portable USB transport/DAC/headphone driver (all running on batteries)_

 

jkeny, 

 I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe that the Sennheiser hd-650 can be properly driven straight from a DAC without the help of any kind of beefy buffer/headphone amp. You are probably hearing only a fraction of what they can do with a proper headphone amp.

 Here is an interesting read Sufficient volume vs. Sufficient headphone amping and critical listening - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

 By the way, if the ESS DAC data sheet is recommending loads over 5K ohms, it probably means that it doesn't have a super low output impedance. In that case, you will probably have a (measurable) roll off at the highs and lows and an increase in distortion and intermodulation. I am just bringing this up because the expected increase in distortion could yield unpredictable results (it could mask or overemphasize details).


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jkeny, 

 I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe that the Sennheiser hd-650 can be properly driven straight from a DAC without the help of any kind of beefy buffer/headphone amp. You are probably hearing only a fraction of what they can do with a proper headphone amp._

 

I know it's hard to believe but I did say that it sounds exactly the same as when I use a Millet Hybrid max tube based headphone amp. So I'm not basing it on sound memory but on direct A/B comparison - no change in reproduction of the frequency range - bass is as strong, highs are as crystalline! 

  Quote:


 Here is an interesting read Sufficient volume vs. Sufficient headphone amping and critical listening - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

 By the way, if the ESS DAC data sheet is recommending loads over 5K ohms, it probably means that it doesn't have a super low output impedance. In that case, you will probably have a (measurable) roll off at the highs and lows and an increase in distortion and intermodulation. I am just bringing this up because the expected increase in distortion could yield unpredictable results (it could mask or overemphasize details). 
 

I already said that the ESS DAC has a recommended minimum of 5K & all along I've been saying that this shouldn't work BUT it does. We don't know the internal structure of the output stage of this DAC - it uses a charge pump to generate -3.3V & can swing it's output close to the rails - maybe this has a bearing?

 I posted that I started to find the load impedance range at which distortion is starting to be audible & this was maybe at 56ohm. There may be some distortion on my cheap 70ohm Sony MDR-XD200 that I had put down to a vibration in one of the drivers but this only happens very seldom & only happens at very, very low powerful bass where I thought I heard a break-up in the right ear driver.

 So, these my findings, so far - as I say more tests will be done on AKG701(35ohm?) & Aikido headphone amp


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know it's hard to believe but I did say that it sounds exactly the same as when I use a Millet Hybrid max tube based headphone amp. So I'm not basing it on sound memory but on direct A/B comparison - no change in reproduction of the frequency range - bass is as strong, highs are as crystalline! 

 I already said that the ESS DAC has a recommended minimum of 5K & all along I've been saying that this shouldn't work BUT it does. We don't know the internal structure of the output stage of this DAC - it uses a charge pump to generate -3.3V & can swing it's output close to the rails - maybe this has a bearing?

 I posted that I started to find the load impedance range at which distortion is starting to be audible & this was maybe at 56ohm. There may be some distortion on my cheap 70ohm Sony MDR-XD200 that I had put down to a vibration in one of the drivers but this only happens very seldom & only happens at very, very low powerful bass where I thought I heard a break-up in the right ear driver.

 So, these my findings, so far - as I say more tests will be done on AKG701(35ohm?) & Aikido headphone amp_

 

Those are interesting findings ... maybe its the battery power? Anyway, I am getting off topic. Let's go back to the hiface


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm listening to this through HD650 headphones directly connected to the ESS DAC's outputs, no caps, etc needed (the ESS DAC outputs 2V rms with no voltage bias). Everything sounds wonderful right through the frequency range - very much like heard on the QUAD ESL 989 speakers last night. The datasheet recommends a load >5Kohm but is not complaining with the HD650's impedance of 300ohm. 

 The vol in foobar cannot be turned up full as it's painful but as someone pointed out digital vol control is not the best idea in the world (it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect here, maybe because the system operates in 24bit mode even on 16bit material?).

 But my idea to kill two birds is to put a nice LDR vol control (fixed 27kohm R + shunt LDR) on the Vouts of the DAC bringing the DAC within it's comfort zone & dispensing with digital vol control. 

 A nice 24/192 USB transport + 24/192 DAC/headphone amplifier/LDR vol control? Whadya reckon?_

 

Transport+DAC would be a better product IMHO.
 Leave the amp out and upgrade the Transport+DAC components as much as you can.
 Whatever you decide count me in from now!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thinking out loud - what about this as an alternative to batteries ?

Adjustable DC Regulated Power Supply (CSI 1802X) [CSI 1802X] - £34.77 : Circuit Specialists Europe, circuit boards, soldering, PCB equipment, power supplies, test equipment

 any comments on the specifications ?_

 

No batteries are the ultimate solution to powering sensitive clocks. There are specialized powersupplies for driving clocks but they are expensive and hard to find.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you mean a holder into which the batteries are fitted which is connected to the HiFace? I don't have such - here's a photo of the batteries attached.


 If you mean where's the socket for the external 3.3V (batteries or whatever else you wish) to the HiFace - it's the white socket at the side that you see the battery connect to.

 ][/URL]_

 

I meant a socket for the battery so you don't have to desolder everytime you want to recharge, or are you able to slide the battery into the charger with the wires attached?

 Excellent work btw


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant a socket for the battery so you don't have to desolder everytime you want to recharge, or are you able to slide the battery into the charger with the wires attached?

 Excellent work btw_

 

I haven't decided on a battery charger yet so I don't know the ergonomics. Have you got a LiFePo4 battery charger?


----------



## Emokid

Hi guys, does M2Tech hiFace have working DS on Windows 7 x64? I know it's primary for music tru KS but i'd like to use it too with MPCHC or other media player for music DVD's, downmixed DTS audio and other stuff, thanks for replies.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Emokid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys, does M2Tech hiFace have working DS on Windows 7 x64? I know it's primary for music tru KS but i'd like to use it too with MPCHC or other media player for music DVD's, downmixed DTS audio and other stuff, thanks for replies._

 

This has been answered a few times in the thread already.
 They don't have a driver out for DS in Win 7. However, they are working on it.
 Currently Hiface is optmimized to work with Foobar in KS mode.


----------



## sniper0710

1.02 version supports DS and works on win7 too

 The followings are from the faq in M2tech website

 5)Which drivers are available at the moment?
 To date, the driver for Microsoft OSes is available. It’s compatible with XP, Vista and 7,
 both 32 and 64 bits. Mac drivers will be released shortly; Linux drivers to follow.

 13)How can I use hiFace in Direct Sound mode?
 Just select it as system audio card: this way, every player will use it to play back music files and streams. Instead, Kernel Streaming mode is only used when explicitly chosen by the user, which select it for a specific player when configuring it (please check FooBar configuration procedure indicated in the installation manual provided in the installation CDROM
 or zip file for driver release 1.00).



 By the way,the freeze problem is handled?
 I cant find any solution for this problem.
 The following systems are tested by mt friend,and they can't work with M2tech even with the latest driver.

 AMD AM2-5000 GA-78GM-S2H v2.0
 AMD AM2-4200 GA-78GM-S2H v1.1
 AMD AM2-5000 MSI-K9A2VM


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sniper0710* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1.02 version supports DS and works on win7 too_

 

It works on Win7 and Vista but not in DS mode, unfortunately. And you can't select it as a default card as it's not get registered in Control Panel as audio device, visible in Device Manager under "Sound, video and game controllers" though.


----------



## doctorcilantro

M2Tech hiFace 24-bit/192kHz USB Digital Audio Interface A journey into the world of PC audio. Review By Mike Galusha


----------



## pompon

Why not use USB extention with the hiface and bypass completely the need to use coax cable ?

 Just plug the hiface directly on the dac with a simple gender changer (or bypass completely thoses connectors (but need to open the HiFace)).

 Seem good or bad idea ?
 I look for good coax and the price I see (StereoVox 1.5m it's 500$ ... and DB-510 is 215$ for 1.3m). For 1-2$ I have 1.5m USB extention!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not use USB extention with the hiface and bypass completely the need to use coax cable ?

 Just plug the hiface directly on the dac with a simple gender changer (or bypass completely thoses connectors (but need to open the HiFace)).

 Seem good or bad idea ?
 I look for good coax and the price I see (StereoVox 1.5m it's 500$ ... and DB-510 is 215$ for 1.3m). For 1-2$ I have 1.5m USB extention! _

 

Good idea, the SPDIF is the weaker link since Hiface is using a good protocol on USB. If you have a USB DAC, you can even put the Hiface inside and bypass USB entirely.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not use USB extention with the hiface and bypass completely the need to use coax cable ?

 Just plug the hiface directly on the dac with a simple gender changer (or bypass completely thoses connectors (but need to open the HiFace)).

 Seem good or bad idea ?
 I look for good coax and the price I see (StereoVox 1.5m it's 500$ ... and DB-510 is 215$ for 1.3m). For 1-2$ I have 1.5m USB extention! _

 

pompon,

 It is probably something to try. But I have found that even async usb converters (such as EMU 0404 USB and Musiland Monitor 01 USD) are affected by the quality of the usb cable. 

 My guess (but this is just a personal opinion) is that the usb cable carries both the data and power from the computer to the usb converter. By using the Wireworld Ultraviolet usb cable I found that the sound quality improved a lot in comparison with basic usb cables. 

 However, I believe that even the data part is affected by the quality of the usb cable. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the usb cable is causing data errors because this is simply not possible with async method. But what I think is happening is that with a poor quality usb cable the async converter has to ask again for the data which causes a lot overhead. 
 I was able to verify that the quality of the usb cable matters with trying different latency settings in the control panel of the EMU 0404 USB. By setting the latency at 4ms for example, I would have a perfect playback with the wireworld ultraviolet usb and I would have a lot of dropouts/glitches with a basic usb cable. 

 So I am not saying that using a USB extender won't yield better results than using no usb+spdif. But I just wanted to point out that going the usb extender way, you just shift the problem from the digital cable to the usb cable.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not use USB extention with the hiface and bypass completely the need to use coax cable ?

 Just plug the hiface directly on the dac with a simple gender changer (or bypass completely thoses connectors (but need to open the HiFace)).

 Seem good or bad idea ?
 I look for good coax and the price I see (StereoVox 1.5m it's 500$ ... and DB-510 is 215$ for 1.3m). For 1-2$ I have 1.5m USB extention! _

 

That's exactly what I have done with my modded HiFace - the ESS DAC plugs directly into the HiFace using I2S, no coaxial cable, no impedance issues, no transformers to worry about


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's exactly what I have done with my modded HiFace - the ESS DAC plugs directly into the HiFace using I2S, no coaxial cable, no impedance issues, no transformers to worry about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

There are always impedance matching/transmission line issues, even with traces on a circuit board. High-speed signals like I2S are particularly sensitive to this.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## mmerrill99

Can the person who sent me a HiFace & Grado HF2 phones please email me (email is the only way to keep control of my communications) - there's no name on the package that I can identify as somebody I have been in contact with. Sorry for any confusion!


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


 I am not saying that the usb cable is causing data errors because this is simply not possible with async method. But what I think is happening is that with a poor quality usb cable the async converter has to ask again for the data which causes a lot overhead. 
 

I dont believe any of these Async protocols have retry capability or error recovery. They only pace the data rate so that the receiver can be the master clock. This is a question for Marco.

 Errors are certainly possible, but unlikely if you have taken reasonable precautions.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## Gibertus Jeunus

And what about purchasing a new motherboard providing coax and optical outputs, there are many cheap ones in the market now. the m2 interface is overpriced to my mind in comparison to this option.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are always impedance matching/transmission line issues, even with traces on a circuit board. High-speed signals like I2S are particularly sensitive to this.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Yes, but keeping lines/traces short & of equal length should help this - as does taking the I2S off before it goes through the DIT4192 (which is needed for SPDIF generation) & SPDIF transformer (2:1 oh how Jocko would moan) eliminates both potential source of noise/jitter/impedance issues.

 Tomorrow a few of us will be testing this modded HiFace connected to a Bufallo. We will be testing I2S Vs BNC Vs RCA SPDIF among other configs.


----------



## Bails

Has anyone heard anything recently about the Windows 7 DS/Wasapi driver? It was going to be released around mid-January...


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gibertus Jeunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And what about purchasing a new motherboard providing coax and optical outputs, there are many cheap ones in the market now. the m2 interface is overpriced to my mind in comparison to this option._

 

I have that and it sounds like crap even though my audio controler (Realtek ALC889A) is bit perfect capable.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can the person who sent me a HiFace & Grado HF2 phones please email me (email is the only way to keep control of my communications) - there's no name on the package that I can identify as somebody I have been in contact with. Sorry for any confusion!_

 

YHM


----------



## mmerrill99

I just returned from a listening session with a fellow DIY audio friend who has a range of equipment. He will be writing a review of the session shortly which I will link to.

 One thing that amazed him was the sound of headphones direct from the ESS DAC - we tried Senn HD650, Grado HF2, AKG701 - all sounded wonderful - the 701s were as loud as I would want to listen to them but they weren't as loud as the HD650s - I expected the 701s to be thin & have drive problems but not so! We A/Bed with an Aikido headphone amp & it was it's match on SQ. Volume could obviously go louder on the h/p amp but the AKG was the only one that you might want more vol using the ESS DAC - I don't!


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bails* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone heard anything recently about the Windows 7 DS/Wasapi driver? It was going to be released around mid-January..._

 

I got it from Marco, but I have not had time to test it.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## sniper0710

It seems a test version?
 I dont see any new version driver on M2tech website.


----------



## somestranger26

I asked Marco if I could test the latest driver version, as it's supposed to fix the freezing issue present for people with AMD chipsets. Alas, it doesn't seem fixed yet. It does indeed support WASAPI and DS now though, so I can't wait for this bug to be fixed.


----------



## momomo6789

DS WORKS ! omg !


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked Marco if I could test the latest driver version, as it's supposed to fix the freezing issue present for people with AMD chipsets. Alas, it doesn't seem fixed yet. It does indeed support WASAPI and DS now though, so I can't wait for this bug to be fixed._

 

This is exactly why I stay clear of AMD CPUs.

 Steve N.
 former Intel employee


----------



## momomo6789

blame amd for a driver problem you sir are weird.

 on side note ipod touchs / phones dont work on intel p55 mobos and they have no plan to fix it.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Where is this new driver?

  Quote:


 _*Latest version: 1.02

*
 Compatibility extended to Windows 7 64bits
 Direct Sound operation mode enabled_ 
 

As stated earlier, no DS or WASAPi with 1.02.


----------



## momomo6789

ill upload it for every one http://rapidshare.com/files/34552883...ta103.zip.html


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is exactly why I stay clear of AMD CPUs.

 Steve N.
 former Intel employee_

 

I don't erroneously blame AMD when one of my drivers doesn't function correctly.

 Mike R.
 Current AMD Shareholder


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ill upload it for every one RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting_

 

Consider trying Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire when you're uploading small files; it has no wait time for free users and is very fast.


----------



## momomo6789

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Consider trying Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire when you're uploading small files; it has no wait time for free users and is very fast._

 

you go do that


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't erroneously blame AMD when one of my drivers doesn't function correctly.

 Mike R.
 Current AMD Shareholder_

 



 The problem is the AMD motherboard chipsets, which causes driver issues. So I agree with Steve N.


----------



## momomo6789

every thing else works with there chipset


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you go do that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hiface_1.03_vista_and_7.zip

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_every thing else works with their chipset_

 

Exactly.. you don't blame the chipset when your mouse isn't working unless none of your other USB devices work either.


 Edit: Earlier in the thread there was mention of trying out a USB expansion card with the hiFace to avoid the freeze bug; I don't think it will work since I most recently tested the hiFace on a 790FX board using an NEC USB 3.0 controller (using one of the USB 3.0 slots obviously) and still experienced it.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Thanks for posting!

 Crashes J. River MC14 using WASAPI or DS though.

 Windows 7 x64.

 DC


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for posting!

 Crashes J. River MC14 using WASAPI or DS though.

 Windows 7 x64.

 DC_

 

Nice, guess I'd better wait for the official release. Thanks for heads up.


----------



## tomasino

New drivers from your links works perfectly with Vista! Finnally low jittery sound even in films


----------



## Gibertus Jeunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have that and it sounds like crap even though my audio controler (Realtek ALC889A) is bit perfect capable._

 

I've tried both my asus P6T motherboard opt output and my essence stx's and it sounds absolutely the same through my stello da100sig.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gibertus Jeunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried both my asus P6T motherboard opt output and my essence stx's and it sounds absolutely the same through my stello da100sig._

 

I am using RCA coaxial and I can tell yo without a doubt that the sound is crap.
 I pick up all sorts of buzzing and crackling sounds as my CPU works.
 I should receive the HiFace shortly to compare.


----------



## Bails

I've installed the new driver and it works perfectly in Windows 7 32-bit with Windows Media Player - it sounds good, too! That's with an Intel chipset.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bails* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've installed the new driver and it works perfectly in Windows 7 32-bit with Windows Media Player - it sounds good, too! That's with an Intel chipset._

 

What about the Win7-64 do they have stable drivers for that yet?


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about the Win7-64 do they have stable drivers for that yet?_

 

Nope.


----------



## momomo6789

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about the Win7-64 do they have stable drivers for that yet?_

 

working fine here ds , wasabi , ks been runing for 48 hours without any crash's intel p55 mobo


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using RCA coaxial and I can tell yo without a doubt that the sound is crap.
*I pick up all sorts of buzzing and crackling sounds as my CPU works.*
 I should receive the HiFace shortly to compare._

 

You have ground loop, my friend, afraid hiface won't change that.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_working fine here ds , wasabi , ks been runing for 48 hours without any crash's intel p55 mobo_

 

Hmmm...I'm using an AMD 790? chipset. The new driver actually screws up all my other devices too; HDMI, EMU, and Reltkek HD.


----------



## momomo6789

yep bad drivers for amd maybe they fix sometime soon =/ but for intel works great


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have ground loop, my friend, afraid hiface won't change that._

 

Well I don't get it when I run TOSlink out of my mobo and please don't get my hopes down like that. It's very depressing!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I don't get it when I run TOSlink out of my mobo and please don't get my hopes down like that. It's very depressing!_

 

well yeah, cause the toslink electrically decouples the connnection by running it as light, one of the few benefits of TOSlink


----------



## punk_guy182

The thing is that I only get those sounds with my speakers when preamp function is turned on and power amp turned on also.
 And I don't get those sounds when using the BJC Belden 1694A RCA.
 But I do get the sounds when using the Canare BNC with the RCA out to BNC adapter pluged into my mobo.

 Please explain this to me.


----------



## endless402

wasapi causes BSOD, will wait for official version

 this is on win 7 64bit


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have ground loop, my friend, afraid hiface won't change that._

 

It would if it had proper pulse transformers as any quality transport should.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thing is that I only get those sounds with my speakers when preamp function is turned on and power amp turned on also.
 And I don't get those sounds when using the BJC Belden 1694A RCA.
 But I do get the sounds when using the Canare BNC with the RCA out to BNC adapter pluged into my mobo.

 Please explain this to me._

 

thats pretty strange, im at a loss dude


----------



## punk_guy182

Yeah I have the same What look on my face aswell.
 I can't wait to try out the HiFace. Perhaps it will solve the problem once and for all.
 One other weird thing is with the Canare BNC and the adapter I don't always get the sounds.

 I guess if I do the PS mod I won't get any fuzzy sounds or ground loop right?


----------



## rosgr63

The hiface is galvanicaly isolated, so If you have a ground loop it should solve it.
 Reading your posts I think you have a cable or adapter problem.


----------



## xdanny

Dirty power can also cause crackling noises. I went nuts trying to troubleshoot something like this, and it went away completely after I plugged it into a power conditioner...


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xdanny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dirty power can also cause crackling noises. I went nuts trying to troubleshoot something like this, and it went away completely after I plugged it into a power conditioner._

 

you're refering to your PC's power/?

 i also experience tonnes of crackling. e.g. when i windowskey+D when something's running there's all sorts of pops and stuff. when my hdd is doing heavy seeking i get the same thing. highly annoying.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The hiface is galvanicaly isolated, so If you have a ground loop it should solve it.
 Reading your posts I think you have a cable or adapter problem._

 

I think so too.
 Thanks for the good news!


----------



## rosgr63

Maybe you can try a contact enhancer like Silclear to see if it cures it.
 BTW this is my opinion I am not an electronics person.


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you're refering to your PC's power/?

 i also experience tonnes of crackling. e.g. when i windowskey+D when something's running there's all sorts of pops and stuff. when my hdd is doing heavy seeking i get the same thing. highly annoying._

 

No, wall power... The pc was my only component not plugged into my Panamax 5400 surge proterctor/voltage regulator. It took me two weeks of updating drivers, doing tons of research on why this might happen. Nothing. Then someone suggested this on a forum. Just like that ALL pops and cracklings went away...


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The hiface is galvanicaly isolated, so If you have a ground loop it should solve it.
 Reading your posts I think you have a cable or adapter problem._

 

I had this problem with previous transports which were connected with coaxial cable to DAC, that when I switched some lights on/off in my apartment, I could get cracks and dropouts to the sound. With HiFace I haven't had this problem anymore.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using RCA coaxial and I can tell yo without a doubt that the sound is crap.
 I pick up all sorts of buzzing and crackling sounds as my CPU works.
 I should receive the HiFace shortly to compare._

 

This sounds like a classic latency issue. You either dont have enough memory or the internal architecture of your computer creates high latency. Even the disk access time can cause this. A newer computer may be the only solution. I had a lot of trouble with older XP machine and Kernel streaming.

 Have you tried defragging?

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thing is that I only get those sounds with my speakers when preamp function is turned on and power amp turned on also.
 And I don't get those sounds when using the BJC Belden 1694A RCA.
 But I do get the sounds when using the Canare BNC with the RCA out to BNC adapter pluged into my mobo.

 Please explain this to me._

 

Steve the above comment makes me think that it could be a cable/adapter problem


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steve the above comment makes me think that it could be a cable/adapter problem_

 

I think so too. I have 8gb of RAM and 2TB of HD space.
 Once I get the HiFace we will see.
 Although I reckon that I ran out of disk space lately and I had to continualy delete files.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

I had to use HumX before because of the ground loop issue and can confirm that with hifiace I can remove them and still has dead black background even at the maxed out volume in high gain. Guess it's indeed galvanicaly isolated, like toslink. Another big plus to the already wonderful device.


----------



## rosgr63

Wonderful device at a wonderful price I may add.


----------



## Weez

Hmm, I’m thinking of buying a Havana DAC (which hasn’t a BNC input) and I read somewhere in this thread that a BNC to RCA adapter does bad things to the sound. Does it? And the Hiface doesn’t support Asio, right?


----------



## punk_guy182

Adapters might not be the best thing. You can always go for a Hiface with RCA output and you will save 30$.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, I’m thinking of buying a Havana DAC (which hasn’t a BNC input) and I read somewhere in this thread that a BNC to RCA adapter does bad things to the sound. Does it? And the Hiface doesn’t support Asio, right?_

 

Impedance mismatch, reflections... ya, generally bad things. You can do a couple things:

get a BNC to RCA SPDIF cable (still bad thing)
get a 5-7 m BNC to RCA SPDIF cable (still relatively bad thing)
remove RCA SPDIF in, install BNC SPDIF in on your Havana (better thing)
get DAC-3 SE/DV/REF instead of Havana for approx. same money (best thing; if you do not insist on tubes) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


hiFace does not have native ASIO driver (like Musiland Monitor), but hiFace does ASIO if you use f.e. ASIO4ALL wrapper.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think so too. I have 8gb of RAM and 2TB of HD space.
 Once I get the HiFace we will see.
 Although I reckon that I ran out of disk space lately and I had to continualy delete files._

 


 also, here's a question for you guys. if i'm getting a lavry da11 dac, which has usb out, would the m2tech hiface + spdif likely make an improvement, or would i be getting about the same thing from the usb, which should be of decent quality?

 also, if i have a groundloop issue like xdanny, would using usb solve anything? or would i still benefit from the galvanised isolation from the hiface


----------



## punk_guy182

I think Dan Lavry carefuly implemented USB technology in his DACs.
 I However am using S/PDIF with the Audio-GD Reference One DAC.
 This DAC is a much better performer over the DA11 from what I heard and S/PDIF is a very well implemented technology. USB audio still has a long way to go before being a strong standard IMO.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think Dan Lavry carefuly implemented USB technology in his DACs.
 I However am using S/PDIF with the Audio-GD Reference One DAC.
 This DAC is a much better performer over the DA11 from what I heard and S/PDIF is a very well implemented technology. USB audio still has a long way to go before being a strong standard IMO._

 

are the prices comparable? is the reference one generally considered a better buy then?

 i ask because i was told that in that price range, it's either the dac 1 pre or da11. i haven't heard much about the reference one where i live - do enlighten me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 also, where would be the best place to get one? it's kinda hard to look for 2nd hand since ppl either put reference 1 or reference one or ref1 re1 ref one etc etc


----------



## punk_guy182

Have a look over Audio-GD website: CD×ªÅÌ/DAC
 Much has been said about the Reference One and DAC19MK3 or the new version DAC - 19.
 Have a look on the forums.
 If you are into neutral sound than this is the real bang for the buck. Now let's get back on the Hiface topic.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think so too. I have 8gb of RAM and 2TB of HD space.
 Once I get the HiFace we will see.
 Although I reckon that I ran out of disk space lately and I had to continualy delete files._

 

Running out of disk space can cause this too.

 Steve N.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also, here's a question for you guys. if i'm getting a lavry da11 dac, which has usb out, would the m2tech hiface + spdif likely make an improvement, or would i be getting about the same thing from the usb, which should be of decent quality?_

 

The USB interface is likely CEntrance based, as my older products used, based on the fact that it is only 24-bit. The Async interface of the HiFace or any other async interface will probably be better, however like all things it depends on implementation. Powering the HiFace from the USB port (standard) may turn the tables.

  Quote:


 also, if i have a groundloop issue like xdanny, would using usb solve anything? or would i still benefit from the galvanised isolation from the hiface 
 

The USB input on the Lavry is probably not isolated, so the HiFace may help if you have this problem.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## rosgr63

@audioengr
 Steve have you experienced any "crash due to surprise removal" with the 1.03.3 Mac driver?


----------



## Shahrose

Does anyone know where the M2Tech HiFace can be bought in Canada?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know where the M2Tech HiFace can be bought in Canada?_

 

The HiFace can only be bought online over at Tweekgeek.com: M2Tech HiFace USB to SPDIF or BNC Interface

 Or directly from M2Tech if you are in Europe or elsewhere preferably: M2tech - homepage

 I got mine from a fellow Headfier.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HiFace can only be bought online over at Tweekgeek.com: M2Tech HiFace USB to SPDIF or BNC Interface

 Or directly from M2Tech if you are in Europe or elsewhere preferably: M2tech - homepage

 I got mine from a fellow Headfier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks pg.


----------



## Sieg9198

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also, here's a question for you guys. if i'm getting a lavry da11 dac, which has usb out, would the m2tech hiface + spdif likely make an improvement, or would i be getting about the same thing from the usb, which should be of decent quality?

 also, if i have a groundloop issue like xdanny, would using usb solve anything? or would i still benefit from the galvanised isolation from the hiface_

 

I have tested this personally and the m2tech -> coaxial -> da11 approach is indeed a pretty big improvement over the usb -> da11 approach 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hiface_1.03_vista_and_7.zip



 Exactly.. you don't blame the chipset when your mouse isn't working unless none of your other USB devices work either.


 Edit: Earlier in the thread there was mention of trying out a USB expansion card with the hiFace to avoid the freeze bug; I don't think it will work since I most recently tested the hiFace on a 790FX board using an NEC USB 3.0 controller (using one of the USB 3.0 slots obviously) and still experienced it._

 

Did you use the Gigabyte motherboard which already has the NEC controller built in to the motherboard?? Or is it an extension card??


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@audioengr
 Steve have you experienced any "crash due to surprise removal" with the 1.03.3 Mac driver?_

 

I believe I have. I routinely stop the music and close out iTunes and Amarra when I pull the USB cable. I have Snow Leopard now and its pretty stable with it.

 Steve N.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe I have. I routinely stop the music and close out iTunes and Amarra when I pull the USB cable. I have Snow Leopard now and its pretty stable with it.

 Steve N._

 

Thanks Steve, oddly enough I get crashes with Snow Leopard when I connect one of my DACs to the hiface.
 To minimise it I put the computer into sleep mode during removal/connection of the hiface to the DAC.
 When I just connect/disconnect the hiface to the computer I don't have any problems, it's only when I connect one of my DACs.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sieg9198* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have tested this personally and the m2tech -> coaxial -> da11 approach is indeed a pretty big improvement over the usb -> da11 approach 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Did you use the Gigabyte motherboard which already has the NEC controller built in to the motherboard?? Or is it an extension card??_

 

Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-790FXTA-UD5 AM3 AMD 790FX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards


----------



## koven

sorry for not having read the entire thread, but could anyone tell me if this would be an improvement from the m-audio transit?


----------



## endless402

^not a dac, it's a way to output SPDIF 24/192 to your dac with BNC or coax


----------



## koven

oh i see.. what are some similar options in this price range? is it like the bel canto usb link?


----------



## Il Mostro

Does anyone have information regarding the Tube Audio Designs "Spiffy". This is a re-work of the rather uninspiring and non-descript Behringer but how is it tweaked, if at all?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh i see.. what are some similar options in this price range? is it like the bel canto usb link?_

 

I don't know about the Bel Canto USB Link but hiface uses two clocks, is galvanicaly isolated and doesn't require a USB cable.
 If you have to use a USB cable, it doesn't need to be special (like your Polestar), a standard one will do as it operates in asynchronous mode.
 It uses it's own drivers so check for compatibility issues.
 The SQ is excellent in my system.


----------



## riderforever

Looks nice, despite I don't like proprietary drivers. Are Linux drivers in the plans?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks nice, despite I don't like proprietary drivers. Are Linux drivers in the plans?_

 

As per their website yes.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks nice, despite I don't like proprietary drivers. Are Linux drivers in the plans?_

 

Yes and no.

 Yes, it is in plan, but no, since I haven't even seen an alpha version of this.

 I'd guess windows is their first and primary target, along with mac as a secondary. Linux is trailing way behind...


----------



## paaj

Anyone has the clicking problem in OSX solved yet? (using a Mac Mini with Snow Leopard in my case) 
 Had a lot of help the first few weeks, but now it's being quiet.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone has the clicking problem in OSX solved yet? (using a Mac Mini with Snow Leopard in my case) 
 Had a lot of help the first few weeks, but now it's being quiet._

 

Paaj I don't have a clicking problem with Snow Leopard.
 What exactly is the problem you have?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe I have. I routinely stop the music and close out iTunes and Amarra when I pull the USB cable. I have Snow Leopard now and its pretty stable with it.

 Steve N._

 

Does the Amarra work pretty good with the Hiface?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the Amarra work pretty good with the Hiface?_

 

I don't think hiface is recognized by Amarra yet. Maybe in the future as Steve mentioned in another post hiface may get approval for use with Amarra.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the Amarra work pretty good with the Hiface?_

 

Seems to, although I had strange behaviour yesterday and had to restart Amarra. After playing a playlist overnight, I selected some other tracks inthe playlist. Rather than playing these tracks, it continued playing the same track, but put the title of the new track at the top of the iTunes window. Got really quirky after that.

 I'll report this to Marco.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems to, although I had strange behaviour yesterday and had to restart Amarra. After playing a playlist overnight, I selected some other tracks inthe playlist. Rather than playing these tracks, it continued playing the same track, but put the title of the new track at the top of the iTunes window. Got really quirky after that.

 I'll report this to Marco.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

thanks for the info steve


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think hiface is recognized by Amarra yet. Maybe in the future as Steve mentioned in another post hiface may get approval for use with Amarra._

 

It's strange that Amarra would be reluctant to give hiFace its full support. You'd think that Amarra would first hurry up and get Flac support then work with all manufacturers like M2tech who want to provide better sound to the consumers to make sure everything integrates well together. Especially with Foobar around!! Them providing all kinds of itunes support leaves me completely uninterested for some odd reason!


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hiface_1.03_vista_and_7.zip



 Exactly.. you don't blame the chipset when your mouse isn't working unless none of your other USB devices work either.


 Edit: Earlier in the thread there was mention of trying out a USB expansion card with the hiFace to avoid the freeze bug; I don't think it will work since I most recently tested the hiFace on a 790FX board using an NEC USB 3.0 controller (using one of the USB 3.0 slots obviously) and still experienced it._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doctorcilantro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for posting!

 Crashes J. River MC14 using WASAPI or DS though.

 Windows 7 x64.

 DC_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice, guess I'd better wait for the official release. Thanks for heads up._

 

Works perfect for me on W7 64-bit, listening to Slacker radio right now, splendid. Wondering when official release is out.


----------



## kranius

has anyone experienced the hiFace under GNU/Linux ?


----------



## paaj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Paaj I don't have a clicking problem with Snow Leopard.
 What exactly is the problem you have?_

 

it's 'clicking' like it loses connection every 4/5 seconds or something. only on my mac mini, not on macbook pro though.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's 'clicking' like it loses connection every 4/5 seconds or something. only on my mac mini, not on macbook pro though._

 

I use a MacBook Pro, that's why I don't have the problem.
 Do you ever get a crash due to surprise removal?
 Have you tried the 1.03.5 driver yet?


----------



## hawkhead

1.03 for Windows is released


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1.03 for Windows is released_

 

Installed. For some reason this version is slower than 1.02. I use Windows XP. 

 For example when I start playing a track through foobar there's about 1 second lag before the track actually starts playing. I didn't notice this with 1.02. With XP 1.02 works better and DS support works also so I'm not sure if there's any reason to update.


----------



## tosehee

Maybe they are trying to address the 'beep' that happens when the music first starts?


----------



## punk_guy182

I just received the HiFace and it's a great little piece of hardware.
 I upgraded from S/PDIF output from my computer motherboard which has the Realtek ALC889A codec and a BJC Belden 1694A RCA (15Ft).

 Here are the improvements with Vista 64 Foobar2000 v1.0, 1.03 driver with DS and Canare BNC (1m):

 -Sound is less muddy, a lot clearer, fluid (musical) and I notice more details especialy when listening to electronic music that has distortion effects. This thing makes the sound so smooth and musical that I feel like listening rhough a tube amp. I guess that the reclocking made by the hiface is responsible for the smooth sound.
 -Highs are a little bit sharper, a little sweet and I think that I can hear higher notes but I'm not sure.
 -Bass is definetely there. There might be a little bit more bass impact but I can definetely hear a lot more lower sounds. I can now listen to some songs where Ircould not previously hear low notes.
 -As for soundstage, there is little improvement in 2d (width) and it is a tad better with 3D effects.

 I mostly listened to the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack composed and directed by Philip Glass. I'm rediscovering the music. The songs feel more a lot more musical, smooth and I can hear the musicians breath before blowing air in their tubas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Overall, I very much like the HiFace. The ammount of improvements procured by the Hiface make me rediscover certain songs and that is a major plus when considering an upgrade.
 The most noticeable improvements are with the less muddy, more detailed and musical sound. Other than that, I can enjoy listening to lower sounds that were previously absent. Although, I have the RE1 which has the DSP1 chip for jitter reduction and the HiFace definitely braught some improvement in that area as I can hear a smoother sound.

 Do you guys know how much burning-in time is required before it matures completely?
 I also notice some small distortion sounds once in awhile. Is the driver causing this? I'll try using WASAPI to see if the problem persists.
 I should receive the Oyaide DB-510 (0.7m) next week if Joe pitman can get them in stock.
 So far, the Hiface is a definite winner for what I paid for.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should receive the Oyaide DB-510 (0.7m) next week if Joe pitman can get them in stock._

 

How much are they asking for that cable ?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much are they asking for that cable ?_

 

Oyaide DB-510 Digital Interconnect | KOSMIC.us


----------



## Shahrose

Thanks for the impressions PG.

 BTW, according to the m2tech website, DS is now enabled on the hiFace for W7 and Vista users. Can anyone confirm this and if it's bug-free?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the impressions PG.

 BTW, according to the m2tech website, DS is now enabled on the hiFace for W7 and Vista users. Can anyone confirm this and if it's bug-free?_

 

Yeah like I said in my short review, DS works with Vista 64. I used DS with Foobar2000 for my impressions. I however am getting some small distortion sounds once in awhile. I did try WASAPI and I didn't get those sounds.

 I will do some more listening to see if the problem persists. Perhaps the driver is at fault or perhaps the cause is something else.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1.03 for Windows is released_

 

Still freezes for me.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the impressions PG.

 BTW, according to the m2tech website, DS is now enabled on the hiFace for W7 and Vista users. Can anyone confirm this and if it's bug-free?_

 

friend couldn't get it to work, but he has a soundcard installed as well, so maybe the drivers were somehow conflcting. sounds like a bit of a bummer though they haven't gotten the drivers for win 7 nailed


----------



## tosehee

Hrm. Is that distortion like a short stop? or is it actual distorted sound?


----------



## rosgr63

The hiface uses an asynch implementation so if you need to use a USB extention cable with it it doesn't have to be expensive.
 The Oyaide DB-510 or DR-510 are excellent cables, a steal at the current price.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received the HiFace and it's a great little piece of hardware.
 I upgraded from S/PDIF output from my computer motherboard which has the Realtek ALC889A codec and a BJC Belden 1694A RCA (15Ft).

 Here are the improvements with Vista 64 Foobar2000 v1.0, 1.03 driver with DS and Canare BNC (1m):

 -Sound is less muddy, a lot clearer, fluid (musical) and I notice more details especialy when listening to electronic music that has distortion effects. This thing makes the sound so smooth and musical that I feel like listening rhough a tube amp. I guess that the reclocking made by the hiface is responsible for the smooth sound.
 -Highs are a little bit sharper, a little sweet and I think that I can hear higher notes but I'm not sure.
 -Bass is definetely there. There might be a little bit more bass impact but I can definetely hear a lot more lower sounds. I can now listen to some songs where Ircould not previously hear low notes.
 -As for soundstage, there is little improvement in 2d (width) and it is a tad better with 3D effects.

 I mostly listened to the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack composed and directed by Philip Glass. I'm rediscovering the music. The songs feel more a lot more musical, smooth and I can hear the musicians breath before blowing air in their tubas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Overall, I very much like the HiFace. The ammount of improvements procured by the Hiface make me rediscover certain songs and that is a major plus when considering an upgrade.
 The most noticeable improvements are with the less muddy, more detailed and musical sound. Other than that, I can enjoy listening to lower sounds that were previously absent. Although, I have the RE1 which has the DSP1 chip for jitter reduction and the HiFace definitely braught some improvement in that area as I can hear a smoother sound.

 Do you guys know how much burning-in time is required before it matures completely?
 I also notice some small distortion sounds once in awhile. Is the driver causing this? I'll try using WASAPI to see if the problem persists.
 I should receive the Oyaide DB-510 (0.7m) next week if Joe pitman can get them in stock.
 So far, the Hiface is a definite winner for what I paid for. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

All the improvements by updating drivers? I couldn't hear any difference in SQ between 1.02 and 1.03. Though I quickly rolled back to 1.02 because 1.03 works much slower. Also I experienced a clicking sound when starting to play with 1.03. I can't hear it with 1.02. I hope this driver works better in Win7.

 EDIT:

 I forgot to mention that I got dropouts on sound when playing games with 1.03. 1.02 doesn't do this. Remember that I'm using WinXP.


----------



## gevorg

^^^

 Yeah, those improvements above sound like you have upgraded a DAC or something.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

not from upgrading the drivers, that was the upgrades by switching to the hiface to begin with.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hrm. Is that distortion like a short stop? or is it actual distorted sound?_

 

Not a short stop. It's like a small very short crackling sound. It appears once in awhile with DS output.
 I however used WASAPI for 2 hours last night on Foobar2000 and I didn't notice them at all. However, with WASAPI, there is a time delay between the execution of a song a song and starting to hear it. Also, I'm not able to play a certain part of the song, because the play speeds up. I also had trouble with my program windows like firefox because I couldn't minimize or maximize them smoothly.
 This 1.03 driver is not working very well for me.


----------



## Necrolic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, with WASAPI, there is a time delay between the execution of a song a song and starting to hear it._

 

Is this just the way that bit-perfect works? Because I've read similar things to this a few times.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Necrolic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this just the way that bit-perfect works? Because I've read similar things to this a few times._

 

This is dependent on the buffer length selected in foobar. The lower the buffer, the smaller the delay. At the lowest setting, the lag effect is absent.


----------



## hawkhead

With the exact same buffer settings the Musiland is very responsive and the Hiface not so


----------



## punk_guy182

Alright, I did lower the buffer length to 50 ms and I doN,t get this annoying time delay anymore. However, I still think that it is less responsive.
 One other problem is that when selecting a part of the song, it starts speeding up with WASAPI. I do not have this problem with DS or WASAPI without the hiFace.
 Finally, when I unpluged my USB memory keys, Foobar2000 stoped playing froze. Same thing happened with other audio programs.

 One last thing, I get frequent very short dopouts with Media Player Classic.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hrm. Is that distortion like a short stop? or is it actual distorted sound?_

 

You're actually right. They are dropoffs or whatever you call it. I only get that in Direct Sound mode in either Foobar2000, Media pLayer Classic or any other programs.
 I however, don't get those dropoffs with WASAPI in Foobar. They are very annoying by the way and I hope M2tech corrects that with some new drivers shortly.


----------



## Il Mostro

Man, this thread is making me smile. Only the Italians could turn ones & zeros into a half-baked product that conjures up a love/hate relationship. I say this with the greatest of affection, as high-tech seems no different than low-tech and the four Italian cars I own. It is difficult -- no, truly an art form -- to develop products that are wonderful *when* they work and require their owners' to develop an inordinate level of expertise and work-arounds in relationship to the product's function. Two thumbs up and a big "che stronzo!" to M2Tech. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS I'm getting one!


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're actually right. They are dropoffs or whatever you call it. I only get that in Direct Sound mode in either Foobar2000, Media pLayer Classic or any other programs.
 I however, don't get those dropoffs with WASAPI in Foobar. They are very annoying by the way and I hope M2tech corrects that with some new drivers shortly._

 

Why not KS, that part should be stable as it was the very first supported mode.


----------



## momomo6789

KS crashed once after the new drivers so i switched to wasapi never have any troubles yet


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Il Mostro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I say this with the greatest of affection, as high-tech seems no different than low-tech and the four Italian cars I own._

 

LOL Fiant Punto is an cool car I wish they had it available here in the USA , I can't wait until the orient perfects the Hiface design, makes it reliable and less expensive.


----------



## Patu

I finally updated my OS to Win7. 1.03 drivers seem to work fine in foobar, browser and videos. Haven't tried games yet. KS works better than WASAPI for foobar. WASAPI is extremely slow and laggy and I can't skip on tracks with it. It stops playing if I try to. KS works fine though, just like it did with WinXP.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I finally updated my OS to Win7. 1.03 drivers seem to work fine in foobar, browser and videos. Haven't tried games yet. KS works better than WASAPI for foobar. WASAPI is extremely slow and laggy and I can't skip on tracks with it. It stops playing if I try to. KS works fine though, just like it did with WinXP._

 

Win7x64 or x86 ?


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Win7x64 or x86 ?_

 

I have 64bit edition. No sense in installing the old 32bit anymore.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not KS, that part should be stable as it was the very first supported mode._

 

I tried KS 3 times and it only worked the first time. I get a Foobar error message saying:  Quote:


 Unrecoverable playback error: KS output error: error opening device


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried KS 3 times and it only worked the first time. I get a Foobar error message saying: ""Unrecoverable playback error: KS output error: error opening device""_

 

Have you tried asking for help over at the hydrogen audio foobar forum? Those guys are really good, and they would probably have you post logs of the above error. There "might" be something else going on which could contribute to your problem. 

 I had a couple of situations in the past where I could have sworn something was at fault and after posting error and diagnostic logs it turned out to be some minor thing like an outdated dll component file.

 Just a thought...

 Regards,
 Danny


----------



## Il Mostro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL Fiant Punto is an cool car I wish they had it available here in the USA , I can't wait until the orient perfects the Hiface design, makes it reliable and less expensive._

 


 Well, you will be able to get an Alfa Romeo MiTo which is based on the Punto platform with a bit of added Cuore Sportivo. They are reportedly bringing a hot GTA version stateside, too. The 500 (including one in Abarth trim) is also slated for the USA. I saw both an Abarth 500 and Special Edition MiTo at the Alfa dealership in Shinjuku a couple of months ago -- very nice city-cars and long overdue for the USA.


----------



## GreenLeo

Can anyone help me for the following:

 1. When using the HiFace in Foobar 2000, win XP, should I use the kernel streaming mode or the ASIO mode?

 2. Which OS(Win 7, Vista, XP) sounds best and which software to be used in that OS?

 Thanks.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreenLeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone help me for the following:

 1. When using the HiFace in Foobar 2000, win XP, should I use the kernel streaming mode or the ASIO mode?

 2. Which OS(Win 7, Vista, XP) sounds best and which software to be used in that OS?

 Thanks._

 

1. It doesn't support ASIO so you have to use Kernel Streaming. 

 2. I just updated my OS from XP to 7. I haven't done any thorough comparisons but in casual listening, I can't hear any difference in SQ. I use Kernel Streaming in Windows 7 also.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreenLeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. When using the HiFace in Foobar 2000, win XP, should I use the kernel streaming mode or the ASIO mode?_

 

KS is easier to set up and do not need wrapper like ASIO do. Beside that, it is a matter of personal preference - both modes are bitperfect.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreenLeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2. Which OS(Win 7, Vista, XP) sounds best and which software to be used in that OS?_

 

Hard to tell, in theory bitperfect should be bit perfect.

 My preference is KS (and now WASAPI) on 7x64, not because it "sounds much better" but because I prefer 64 bit OS. KS is foobar, WASAPI can be any player that supports it.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. It doesn't support ASIO so you have to use Kernel Streaming._

 

hiFace can do ASIO on XP. You just need ASIO wrapper like ASIO4all and there is also some configuration work.


----------



## iFly55

i just put my order in with mutine (Canada), gentlemen over the phone was a true audiophile. he told me that BNC is a waste of money and time right now; i was convinced because he did claim that RCA research and development have been ongoing for over 30 years versus BNC which doesn't any of that; his company won't be carrying BNC for good reason. If you want to better understand go talk to him. But he did say he has a few people who were persistent and wanted it.

 the RCA unit is $160CAD, Mutine's very first batch is arriving on Monday and their planning on setting up a PayPal system to process the orders. I'm very excited, i did reserve a unit over the phone but they are almost sold out.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iFly55* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i just put my order in with mutine (Canada), gentlemen over the phone was a true audiophile. he told me that BNC is a waste of money and time right now; i was convinced because he did claim that RCA research and development have been ongoing for over 30 years versus BNC which doesn't any of that; his company won't be carrying BNC for good reason. If you want to better understand go talk to him. But he did say he has a few people who were persistent and wanted it.

 the RCA unit is $160CAD, Mutine's very first batch is arriving on Monday and their planning on setting up a PayPal system to process the orders. I'm very excited, i did reserve a unit over the phone but they are almost sold out._

 


 That statement has a lot of room for debate, but probably not a good one for this thread..

 I think BNC is superior to RCA.


----------



## Ciu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I think BNC is superior to RCA._

 

Would you explain why ?

 Thanks
 R.C.


----------



## tosehee

There are many literatures out there if you do research, but in short..

 1. BNC has professional connections designed from the ground up for performance
 2. A top quality BNC connector such as those made by Canare is correct 75 Ohm impedance.
 3. Correct matching impedance, in return, helps with the reflection.

 If i can think of anything, I will update this~.


----------



## mmerrill99

Toshee is correct - BNC is superior if connecting to another unit with BNC connector. It's of no advantage otherwise & has to do with impedance matching & thus avoiding reflections, as much as possible.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hiFace can do ASIO on XP. You just need ASIO wrapper like ASIO4all and there is also some configuration work._

 

Well, what's the point?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xdanny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you tried asking for help over at the hydrogen audio foobar forum? Those guys are really good, and they would probably have you post logs of the above error. There "might" be something else going on which could contribute to your problem. 

 I had a couple of situations in the past where I could have sworn something was at fault and after posting error and diagnostic logs it turned out to be some minor thing like an outdated dll component file.

 Just a thought...

 Regards,
 Danny_

 

My components are not outdated. Do you really think I can get KS working on vista 64?

 I've read that it is hit or miss with KS on Vista or Win7.
 I'll post anyway just to see what solution comes up.
 I hope they come out with a better driver.


----------



## tosehee

KS works on Vista and Windows 7 without a hitch on my setup. I would expect the same.


----------



## punk_guy182

Tosehee: Have a look!


Help with Kernel Streaming - Hydrogenaudio Forums
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...6&#entry690566


----------



## TheShaman

There are *75 Ohm RCAs *out there. They're not the norm, but they're out there. 
 Not that it matters in this case since the RCA used on the HiFace is probably not 75 Ohm, but still good to know for your DIY projects.
 This is the second or third time I post this, but people just won't listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Check this out, for example. There is also a matching receptacle here (RJ-R)
 If you trust Canare for their BNCs, I'm sure you'll trust them not to publish fake specs on their RCAs..


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iFly55* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i just put my order in with mutine (Canada), gentlemen over the phone was a true audiophile. he told me that BNC is a waste of money and time right now; i was convinced because he did claim that RCA research and development have been ongoing for over 30 years versus BNC which doesn't any of that; his company won't be carrying BNC for good reason. If you want to better understand go talk to him. But he did say he has a few people who were persistent and wanted it.

 the RCA unit is $160CAD, Mutine's very first batch is arriving on Monday and their planning on setting up a PayPal system to process the orders. I'm very excited, i did reserve a unit over the phone but they are almost sold out._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are *75 Ohm RCAs *out there. They're not the norm, but they're out there. 
 Not that it matters in this case since the RCA used on the HiFace is probably not 75 Ohm, but still good to know for your DIY projects.
 This is the second or third time I post this, but people just won't listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Check this out, for example. There is also a matching receptacle here (RJ-R)
 If you trust Canare for their BNCs, I'm sure you'll trust them not to publish fake specs on their RCAs.._

 

I agree that there are some (claimed) 75 ohm RCA. However, most RCA connectors aren't 75 ohms and it is really wrong and misleading to tell people that RCA is better than BNC.

 It is really a shame that Mutine spreads that kind of misinformation. I think that they do not carry the BNC because most of the gear that they sell do not use BNC. For example, the €3000 Audiomat 2.6 dac they carry doesn't come with BNC. 
 By the way, I have had the opportunity to listen to some of the gear they carry (Audiomat DACs and amps, Actinote cables, ...) since most of those brands are French. And while they sound good, they are way overpriced.

 iFly55, if I were you I wouldn't put much weight to what the guys at Mutine might say: saying that BNC is not good for digital spdif is plain stupid from a technical point of view and some of the gear they carry is way overpriced from a sonic/audiophile point of view.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are *75 Ohm RCAs *out there. They're not the norm, but they're out there. 
 Not that it matters in this case since the RCA used on the HiFace is probably not 75 Ohm, but still good to know for your DIY projects.
 This is the second or third time I post this, but people just won't listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Check this out, for example. There is also a matching receptacle here (RJ-R)
 If you trust Canare for their BNCs, I'm sure you'll trust them not to publish fake specs on their RCAs.._

 

Yes, shaman, thanks for the links. It's fine if you are building things yourself (as you said) & can control the type of RCA's used thereby guaranteeing 75ohm at both ends but most people can't control this. 

 So when considering commercial units, there's much more of a chance that devices with BNC connectors are really 75ohm than devices with RCA connectors.

 I agree with slim.a, Mutine really should know better than to make sweeping & incorrect statements like that.


----------



## TheShaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, shaman, thanks for the links. It's fine if you are building things yourself (as you said) & can control the type of RCA's used thereby guaranteeing 75ohm at both ends but most people can't control this. 

 So when considering commercial units, there's much more of a chance that devices with BNC connectors are really 75ohm than devices with RCA connectors.

 I agree with slim.a, Mutine really should know better than to make sweeping & incorrect statements like that._

 

I can't say I disagree with you or slim.a on that matter (although slim could have skipped that "claimed" part unless he's got reasons to suspect or evidence to support that a serious company like Canare would be making false claims to mislead their customers).
 I'm not trying to chip in on the "Mutine debate". It was more of a general remark.


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't say I disagree with you or slim.a on that matter (although slim could have skipped that "claimed" part unless he's got reasons to suspect or evidence to support that a serious company like Canare would be making false claims to mislead their customers).
 I'm not trying to chip in on the "Mutine debate". It was more of a general remark._

 

Your genral remark was indeed intersting as there are some 75 ohms RCA. 
 By the way, when I put "claimed" I didn't intend it for Canare. Canare is a well known and reputable company and I have no reason to doubt them. 
 However, I have come across many companies that claim 75 ohms, and I am not sure all of them are true 75 ohms. 
 Overall, as jkeny pointed out, it is far less risky to use BNC than RCA (in most commercial devices) if you want to make sure to have 75 ohms.


----------



## rosgr63

Oyaide also have 75 Ohm RCA connectors and I personally believe they are so.


----------



## slim.a

Sorry to bring back the subject of RCA connectors once again but I find an interesting article here : Is There Such a Thing as a 75 Ohm RCA Plug? -- Blue Jeans Cable

 Here are some passages from the text :

_Maintaining 75 ohm impedance on mini-DIN and HD-15 plugs is a lost cause; but is there such a thing as a true 75 ohm RCA plug? Not really; Canare's RCAP-series plugs, which we feel are the best RCA plugs available for video, are often referred to as "true 75 ohm" plugs, but that's not quite accurate. At the same time, a look at the construction of these plugs shows that they are easily the best plug on the market for a good impedance match with 75 ohm cable.

 Characteristic impedance of a coaxial cable, or of a connector with a coaxial (that is, two conductors sharing a common axis) construction, is determined by the size of the conductors, the distance between them, and the type of dielectric that separates them. Unfortunately, where RCA plugs are concerned, this just doesn't work out. The plug's dimensions don't present a 75 ohm characteristic impedance, and obviously these dimensions are pretty well fixed by the standard sizing of the jacks the plugs must fit.

 So, the dimensions of the RCA plug and jack are all wrong for 75 ohm characteristic impedance. What's to be done? The best answer to the problem is to limit the damage. The shorter the distance over which an impedance mismatch occurs, the less likelihood there is that it will result in perceptible image degradation. This is where the Canare design--though it can't remedy the basic faults of the RCA plug dimensions--really shines._

 From what I understand the best RCA connectors (Canare, Oyaide, WBT, Eichmann, Furutech to name a few) can limit the damage but only a BNC connector can guarantee a true 75 ohms impedance ... simply because it was designed from the start to do so!
 Edit -- BNC was initially used for 50 ohms but its dimensions can easily permit to make a 75 ohms connector (with a change in the dielectric).


----------



## ulfp

I just installed 1.03 on XP with foobar and KS (output format set to 32 bits).

 I noticed that the new driver download come with a small app display.exe.

 When I run the app it shows correct sample rate 44k, 88k, 96k, etc, but somehow it is always stuck on 16 bits even though I'm pretty sure my 88k and 96k music is 24 bits. Is this expected?

 Regarding BNC vs RCA, I use USB cable and eliminated the RCA coax cable by use of a DIY back-to-back RCA connector (i.e. I plug HiFace to the DAC using a "RCA cable" with zero length). I thought this would be best alternative as I only have RCA input on the DAC (at the same time, I bypass the USB 5V by providing 5V from separate source).


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your genral remark was indeed intersting as there are some 75 ohms RCA. 
 By the way, when I put "claimed" I didn't intend it for Canare. Canare is a well known and reputable company and I have no reason to doubt them. 
 However, I have come across many companies that claim 75 ohms, and I am not sure all of them are true 75 ohms. 
 Overall, as jkeny pointed out, it is far less risky to use BNC than RCA (in most commercial devices) if you want to make sure to have 75 ohms._

 

This is really simple guys:

 You look into the jack and if there is an insulator, usually teflon, around the inner contact, then it is 50 ohms. No insulator, its 75 ohms.

 I use 75 ohm Canare.

 Also, Some RCAs will outperform or match 75 ohm BNC, particularly those that use copper and teflon. Canare is the best and it's brass.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is really simple guys:

 You look into the jack and if there is an insulator, usually teflon, around the inner contact, then it is 50 ohms. No insulator, its 75 ohms.

 I use 75 ohm Canare.

 Also, Some RCAs will outperform or match 75 ohm BNC, particularly those that use copper and teflon. Canare is the best and it's brass.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Thanks for the info Steve!


----------



## athenaesword

are there still any issues with windows 7 drivers for the hiface? esp with directsound?


----------



## momomo6789

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are there still any issues with windows 7 drivers for the hiface? esp with directsound?_

 

not for me


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *athenaesword* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are there still any issues with windows 7 drivers for the hiface? esp with directsound?_

 

1.03 drivers work great in 64bit Win7.


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is really simple guys:

 You look into the jack and if there is an insulator, usually teflon, around the inner contact, then it is 50 ohms. No insulator, its 75 ohms.

 I use 75 ohm Canare.

 Also, Some RCAs will outperform or match 75 ohm BNC, particularly those that use copper and teflon. Canare is the best and it's brass.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Thanks Steve!

 So is the BNC of the HiFace 75ohms? 

 Also, would you explain why some RCAs will outperform 75 ohm BNC if their impedances can't be 75 ohm? 

 Finally, does it means that the the Canare RCA can outperform the best 75 ohm BNC connector (if such a thing exist)?


----------



## ulfp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ulfp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just installed 1.03 on XP with foobar and KS (output format set to 32 bits).

 I noticed that the new driver download come with a small app display.exe.

 When I run the app it shows correct sample rate 44k, 88k, 96k, etc, but somehow it is always stuck on 16 bits even though I'm pretty sure my 88k and 96k music is 24 bits. Is this expected?_

 

Found the problem
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. After installing 1.03 I picked "DS: HIFACE Kernel Streaming" instead of "KS: HIFACE Kernel Streaming".


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreenLeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Steve!

 So is the BNC of the HiFace 75ohms? 

 Also, would you explain why some RCAs will outperform 75 ohm BNC if their impedances can't be 75 ohm? 

 Finally, does it means that the the Canare RCA can outperform the best 75 ohm BNC connector (if such a thing exist)?_

 

Take a look at the link above. There is no true 75ohm rca cables really. Plus, the connector which you are hooking up your cable to needs to go through the impedance conversion also.

 Board -> Connector -> RCA cable.

 If all things are 75 up to board, there is a conversion (lack of better term) in connector, then from conenctor to RCA cable. Even if the RCA cable is true 75ohm, what it is connected to, isn't.


----------



## Pacha

Is it OK using HiFace BNC with 75 Ohms BNC cable and a cheap BNC to RCA adapter to plug on the DAC when it's not possible having BNC on it?
 I mean does the adapter would be not too cheap and degrade anything?

 Or is it better to use a RCA 75 Ohms like Oyaide DR-510 with HiFace RCA and RCA on the DAC?


----------



## tosehee

Don't waste your money on those crazy priced rca to rca cables. Like I stated, there is impedance mismatch from your connector to the cable already.

 If you know how, you can DIY your connector (RCA) to BNC. This isn't terribly hard at all. If not, I'd get bnc to bnc cable and then get a connector. That is essentially same as what you are about to do anyway.., but future proof (If you want to upgrade your DAC or whatever).


----------



## Pacha

Ok, I must admit that upgrade wise it is a better solution. So I just have to pick an adapter BNC to RCA and whatever cheap one will do its purpose then? No need to spend more on a particular adapter?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I must admit that upgrade wise it is a better solution. So I just have to pick an adapter BNC to RCA and whatever cheap one will do its purpose then? No need to spend more on a particular adapter?_

 

Just get a decent one. Most are quite cheap (relatively speaking, of course).


----------



## Ciu

I think BNC or not BNC is not a debate with audio frequencies...even in spdif line
 The link given above(Slim.a) is about BNC connectors for audio (UHF or VHF).
 Someone may prefer a BNC, because of a good locking ....I agree
 But I would someone to demonstrate "How to measure a 75 Ohms BNC cable " .... 

 R.C.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ciu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think BNC or not BNC is not a debate with audio frequencies...even in spdif line
 The link given above(Slim.a) is about BNC connectors for audio (UHF or VHF).
 Someone may prefer a BNC, because of a good locking ....I agree
 But I would someone to demonstrate "How to measure a 75 Ohms BNC cable " .... 

 R.C._

 

There is a measurement done for this.. in another website.. can't remember where and what it is though..

 Use of different connector type was shown in graph by the measurement. It was for Logitech SB mod thread, if I remember correctly.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Take a look at the link above. There is no true 75ohm rca cables really. Plus, the connector which you are hooking up your cable to needs to go through the impedance conversion also.

 Board -> Connector -> RCA cable.

 If all things are 75 up to board, there is a conversion (lack of better term) in connector, then from conenctor to RCA cable. Even if the RCA cable is true 75ohm, what it is connected to, isn't._

 

Quite true. If the wiring to the circuit board and traces on the board are not impedance controlled, then there is a discontinuity. The BNC may not make any difference at all.

 This is why I go to the trouble of wiring the connector to the board using 75 ohm coax rated at over 10GHz.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it OK using HiFace BNC with 75 Ohms BNC cable and a cheap BNC to RCA adapter to plug on the DAC when it's not possible having BNC on it?
 I mean does the adapter would be not too cheap and degrade anything?

 Or is it better to use a RCA 75 Ohms like Oyaide DR-510 with HiFace RCA and RCA on the DAC?_

 

These BNC to RCA adapters have no impedance control, and they are usually made of pot-metal. Dont use them.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't waste your money on those crazy priced rca to rca cables. Like I stated, there is impedance mismatch from your connector to the cable already.

 If you know how, you can DIY your connector (RCA) to BNC. This isn't terribly hard at all. If not, I'd get bnc to bnc cable and then get a connector. That is essentially same as what you are about to do anyway.., but future proof (If you want to upgrade your DAC or whatever)._

 


 I suppose that you have personally listened to all of these "crazy" digital cables so you are qualified to give this advice?

 Steve N.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ciu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think BNC or not BNC is not a debate with audio frequencies...even in spdif line
 The link given above(Slim.a) is about BNC connectors for audio (UHF or VHF).
 Someone may prefer a BNC, because of a good locking ....I agree
 But I would someone to demonstrate "How to measure a 75 Ohms BNC cable " .... 

 R.C._

 

Characteristic impedance measurement is usually done with a TDR or Time Domain Reflectometer. There are other proprietary bench test fixtures that will do this also using a very fast scope. Not something for the hobbyist.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suppose that you have personally listened to all of these "crazy" digital cables so you are qualified to give this advice?

 Steve N._

 

I did personally tried many, but obviously not "all" cables, and I got to this conclusion. I like to be proven wrong, but every mini-meet with all these digital cable changes, I have yet to experience "any" difference at all.

 That's just me though. Maybe your golden ear may identify something that I can't.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did personally tried many, but obviously not "all" cables, and I got to this conclusion. I like to be proven wrong, but every mini-meet with all these digital cable changes, I have yet to experience "any" difference at all.

 That's just me though. Maybe your golden ear may identify something that I can't._

 

Most high-end cables are similar. There are a few stand-outs however. My Bitmeister was rated the best production cable by a Positive-Feedback reviewer.

 Sibilance, distortion and noise may prevent you from hearing the benefits, depending on your other system components and cables. Most audiophiles feel that their system is resolving. 95% are not IME.

 Steve N.


----------



## Pacha

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_These BNC to RCA adapters have no impedance control, and they are usually made of pot-metal. Dont use them.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

So what should I use then? A special kind of adapter? Or no adapter at all and preferably stick with RCA?


----------



## slim.a

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sibilance, distortion and noise may prevent you from hearing the benefits, depending on your other system components and cables. Most audiophiles feel that their system is resolving. 95% are not IME.

 Steve N._

 

I totally agree with you Steve. I have listened to very expensive "audiophile" systems ($20,000+) that were not resolving enough to let hear reliably the differences between differences between interconnects and digital cables. It takes a lot of time and experimenting to make a system more resolving.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what should I use then? A special kind of adapter? Or no adapter at all and preferably stick with RCA?_

 

My own cable is ONLY available with RCA's so that is what I use. I also use excellent copper/teflon RCA jacks. It turns out that the cable is much more important than the connectors. Get the best cable as a first priority.

 Steve N.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slim.a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I totally agree with you Steve. I have listened to very expensive "audiophile" systems ($20,000+) that were not resolving enough to let hear reliably the differences between differences between interconnects and digital cables. It takes a lot of time and experimenting to make a system more resolving._

 

I've done at least 20 upgrades over 25 years. Nothing in my system is stock and lots of it is LI battery powered.

 Steve N.


----------



## Pacha

Now I am a bit lost having read a few pages before that a man from M2tech said it is not good using a BNC to RCA adapter, someone else said that it is not good too using a BNC/RCA cable. Elsewhere others said that it is not bad using BNC to RCA adapter.

 Is the SQ really better with the BNC version of the HiFace over the RCA or not? That would have sense for me to buy the BNC version especially to reuse the BNC cable in the future on a DAC with BNC on it, but if the adapter is not at all a good solution, what's the best between these two in the end?

 I cannot make a decision as opinions are opposed on this subject.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what should I use then? A special kind of adapter? Or no adapter at all and preferably stick with RCA?_

 

Look at how much his cables cost and make a sound decision with what you currently have and will own.

 His product might be all that great, but like everyone says, the IC is the 'last' thing you want to upgrade before PSU and etc.

 If you have that much money to spend on IC, I'd strongly advise to upgrade your source/transport/amp first. Or even a new headphone~!

 Those "digital" cable make a lease, if not none, differences in your setup. You will hear more distinct changes from other upgrade.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I am a bit lost having read a few pages before that a man from M2tech said it is not good using a BNC to RCA adapter, someone else said that it is not good too using a BNC/RCA cable. Elsewhere others said that it is not bad using BNC to RCA adapter.

 Is the SQ really better with the BNC version of the HiFace over the RCA or not? That would have sense for me to buy the BNC version especially to reuse the BNC cable in the future on a DAC with BNC on it, but if the adapter is not at all a good solution, what's the best between these two in the end?

 I cannot make a decision as opinions are opposed on this subject._

 

In the perfect world, BNC adapter -> bnc cable -> dac is the best route.

 If your DAC doesn't have BNC input, then you got a choice.

 Steve N. would argue that these bnc to rca adapters are poor, but I say that having rca connector in your DAC itself already degrades the quality. There is no point, imo, to buy anything fancy for these digital cables. 

 Why don't you buy the cheap bnc/rca from Bluejeans Cables (well trusted company) and actually ask some of your local-fi members to audition their fancy digital cables? It'll save you hundreds of dollars.


----------



## hawkhead

I had been following the work done by Jkeny (John) modding the Hiface and decided to contact him to see if he would undertake the work. He agreed which was a relief because my soldering skills will make you wince.

 My Hiface winged it's way to Ireland and returned a few days later

 Batteries
 2 3.3V LiFE batteries were needed to power the Hiface (the standard leads from the connector are a little short so these were perched on top of a box for testing)
 This worked fine and the batteries are a great technology but by their nature you have no warning when they will stop, they need charging and won't last forever.

 By the time you add up the cost of the batteries (2 sets), a box and connectors for neatness/safety and a suitable charger it begins to stack up

 Given all this I decided to switch to a PSU

*PSU*
 I bought a variable regulated PSU
 I have extended the leads from the Hiface and will shield and heat tube them







 Internal pics of the PSU

 AC inlet






 Middle






 DC out






*Bracket*
 One thing I intend doing is to fabricate a support bracket for the Hiface

*Sound*

 I used three tracks for comparison (from memory)
 Eva Cassidy - People Get ready
 Deep Purple - Smoke on the Water (made in Japan)
 Travis - Turn

 The first thing that struck me was the bass - deeper with incredible control, a very dark background, more detail especially noticeable on cymbals, larger soundstage. I could have been in the room with Eva (nature is cruel sometimes :[)
 Overall a very positive jump in quality

 Software

 I am using 1.03 on Windows 7 64bit and have not had any problems with KS or Wasapi with Foobar V1 (both sound the same) 

 thanks John


----------



## Zerotohero

Hawkhead - did you hear a difference going from batteries to a psu?


----------



## tosehee

Wow..

 So, the above picture is the mod done to the hiface? That is unbelievable. Great work there jkeny. Off the record, how much does it take to do such mod?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow..

 So, the above picture is the mod done to the hiface? That is unbelievable. Great work there jkeny. Off the record, how much does it take to do such mod?_

 

Where do you see the hiFace?
 I just don't see it and I can't see a USB or S/PDIF cable sticking out.


----------



## athenaesword

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow..

 So, the above picture is the mod done to the hiface? That is unbelievable. Great work there jkeny. Off the record, how much does it take to do such mod?_

 

isn't that the psu?


----------



## rosgr63

hawkhead, how does the Abrahamsen V6 DAC + hiface compare to the CIAudio VDA-2/VAC-1 + hiface
 Did you have a chance to compare them?


----------



## regal

The battery is a much better solution if you are after the top SQ. I bought a battery holder for a 18650 2000mHa LiFE 3.3V battery from digikey. With these big batteries they will last hundreds of hours, when it goes dead I'll have another charged ready to swap. Still haven't bought the Hiface yet as I'm waiting on the Win7x64 driver issue to get resolved. I'm also looking for an adapter so it can use a USB cord as there is no room on my computer without it (plus I think its a best idea to keep it away from the EMI of the computer.)


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The battery is a much better solution if you are after the top SQ. I bought a battery holder for a 18650 2000mHa LiFE 3.3V battery from digikey. With these big batteries they will last hundreds of hours, when it goes dead I'll have another charged ready to swap. Still haven't bought the Hiface yet as I'm waiting on the Win7x64 driver issue to get resolved. I'm also looking for an adapter so it can use a USB cord as there is no room on my computer without it (plus I think its a best idea to keep it away from the EMI of the computer.)_

 

I've looked into battery noise (noise is the most important issue with clock PS - particularly 1/f noise) & the oft-quoted report on TNT about battery noise is way off - I have read papers from IEEE showing battery noise (under load) for a range of batteries, down at -200dB - you don't get any better than that!

 Also remember that these LiFePO4 batteries will last 10 years or more depending on use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I consider them a great PS option considering what a well regarded low-noise 3.3V regulated PS supply would cost. The only issue might be re-charging & I'm working on this


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've looked into battery noise (noise is the most important issue with clock PS - particularly 1/f noise) & the oft-quoted report on TNT about battery noise is way off - I have read papers from IEEE showing battery noise (under load) for a range of batteries, down at -200dB - you don't get any better than that!

 Also remember that these LiFePO4 batteries will last 10 years or more depending on use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I consider them a great PS option considering what a well regarded low-noise 3.3V regulated PS supply would cost. The only issue might be re-charging & I'm working on this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The actual voltage of LiFEPo4 batteries is technically 3.2V's, but fresh off the charger it can be higher some advertise them as 3.3V's, it shouldn't matter to the clock. Check out the candlepower forums for all the LiFeP04 battery and charger info you could ever want. They have a marketplace section where you can get the charger and the batteries. They're relatively inexpensive.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The actual voltage of LiFEPo4 batteries is technically 3.2V's, but fresh off the charger it can be higher some advertise them as 3.3V's, it shouldn't matter to the clock. Check out the candlepower forums for all the LiFeP04 battery and charger info you could ever want. They have a marketplace section where you can get the charger and the batteries. They're relatively inexpensive._

 

Yes, 3.2V but as you say this is within spec for clocks or any chips that operate on 3.3V supplies. 

 Thanks, regal, I've looked at that forum but most of the chargers are for battery packs with balancing circuitry rather than single chargers. I use 26650 2300mAH A123 batteries - most of the commercial chargers there are for 18650 size batteries.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zerotohero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hawkhead - did you hear a difference going from batteries to a psu?_

 

No to me they are identical (and I've just tried the batteries again)


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow..

 So, the above picture is the mod done to the hiface? T_

 

No not of the actual Hiface - John has posted some pics earlier


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hawkhead, how does the Abrahamsen V6 DAC + hiface compare to the CIAudio VDA-2/VAC-1 + hiface
 Did you have a chance to compare them?_

 

I'll post separately on that - OK ?


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm waiting on the Win7x64 driver issue to get resolved._

 

Which issue ?


----------



## regal

Yea I am going with 18650 because it is more common and the digikey base is available.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No to me they are identical (and I've just tried the batteries again)_

 

That's interesting - I have a Paul Hynes 3.3V shunt regulator coming in the next month - I'll compare then (but this costs 30GBP). How much did your PSU cost?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which issue ?_

 

I haven't been following this thread closely, the last I checked there were stability issues with the 7x64 drivers, has this been fixed? I'm anal about having a rock solid system, I haven't rebooted in months.


----------



## hawkhead

The PSU was £40

 Driver: 1.03 - zero issues for me and is more responsive than 1.02


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hawkhead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The PSU was £40

 Driver: 1.03 - zero issues for me and is more responsive than 1.02_

 

yours looks like a bench powersupply, I assume you bought it used? Cause those are usually very expensive new.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yours looks like a bench powersupply, I assume you bought it used? Cause those are usually very expensive new._

 

New

Adjustable DC Regulated Power Supply (CSI 1802X) [CSI 1802X] - £34.77 : Circuit Specialists Europe, circuit boards, soldering, PCB equipment, power supplies, test equipment


----------



## Pacha

I've just asked Kingwa from Audio-gd if I'd better go with BNC cable and BNC to RCA adapter to plug on the FUN, but he told me I'd better go with RCA instead, otherwise using an adapter degrades the sound.
 M2tech guy and Steve N also said that.
 So even if I'd prefer go with a BNC cable because of the impedance story and the future proof feature which interests me much, I think I'll go with RCA HiFace and RCA cable and maybe sell that to move to BNC if I buy another DAC which has BNC someday.


----------



## mmerrill99

I see the current mA reading on the PSU is 119 - is this a steady state reading or do you see fluctuations from this current draw?


----------



## shadowlord

just received the mail that my Hiface is ready to ship.
 I will report in a few days.


----------



## hawkhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see the current mA reading on the PSU is 119 - is this a steady state reading or do you see fluctuations from this current draw?_

 

It only changes when I actually play something - goes up by 3mA


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't been following this thread closely, the last I checked there were stability issues with the 7x64 drivers, has this been fixed? I'm anal about having a rock solid system, I haven't rebooted in months._

 

I use Win7 64bit + 1.03 drivers and they've worked flawlessly. So yes, I think the problem is fixed.


----------



## punk_guy182

I have vista 64bit, driver version 1.03 and I have problems with Direct Sound, WASAPI and Kernel Streaming.

 If someone is running the same setup as I do and has no problems please let me know. I have reinstalled Foobar2000 plus all its components and the 1.03 driver and I'm getting the same problems.


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have vista 64bit, driver version 1.03 and I have problems with Direct Sound, WASAPI and Kernel Streaming.

 If someone is running the same setup as I do and has no problems please let me know. I have reinstalled Foobar2000 plus all its components and the 1.03 driver and I'm getting the same problems._

 

Could you be more specific. What kind of problems?


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have vista 64bit, driver version 1.03 and I have problems with Direct Sound, WASAPI and Kernel Streaming.

 If someone is running the same setup as I do and has no problems please let me know. I have reinstalled Foobar2000 plus all its components and the 1.03 driver and I'm getting the same problems._

 

What sort of problems? Freezing when you try to play something? If so, and you're using an AMD chipset, it's a known problem.


----------



## punk_guy182

Okay I just reinstalled the drivers and I do see some improvement after 2 hours of listening time.
 I have disabled in my Device Manager all my other audio controlers (motherboard and Video card) so now I just have the Hiface enabled.

 So far I can get Kernel Streaming mode work. It is a bit slow but that's okay. I however cannot use it when I'm playing a Youtube video with sound. However, this is my first time using KS so maybe this is normal.

 Regarding WASAPI I get the same results when I try to forward into the song. The playback gets very fast and I have to stop and play the song again to get back to a normal speed. Also, it is a lot slower than Kernel Streaming mode.

 As for Direct Sound, I haven't used it enough since the new installation of the drivers to get a very good idea of what has changed. Nevertheless from what I heard so far, I'm quite satisfied. I do not hear those frequent short distorted sounds or sound dropoffs.

 To conclude, reinstalling the drivers and disabling my motherboard and videocard audio controlers helped. However, WASAPI is still slow and I have problems when forwarding into the song.

*Update (8 hours after reinstalling the drivers):*

 Well folks it is back to normal, all the problems have come back. KS mode doesn't work and I get those very annoying short frequent sound dropoffs in DS mode.
 I was gone during those 8 hours and my computer was in sleep mode.


----------



## Sieg9198

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What sort of problems? Freezing when you try to play something? If so, and you're using an AMD chipset, it's a known problem._

 

It would be a bit unfair to say that it does not work with ALL AMD chipset, I can be sure that it does not work with all motherboard that uses the SB700 family series southbridge, so basically all NEW AMD system is a no-no. But with old AMD system it still works fine. It works perfectly with my brother's old AMD Xpress 200 chipset system at least.


----------



## riderforever

*punk_guy182* these kind of problems are really annoying, I hope they will be solved with next driver release!

 In the meantime, have you received the Oyaide DB-510 digital cable? Any thought about it?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*punk_guy182* these kind of problems are really annoying, I hope they will be solved with next driver release!

 In the meantime, have you received the Oyaide DB-510 digital cable? Any thought about it?_

 

M2Tech just sent me a new beta driver and I noticed some great improvements.

 WASAPI is working without a glitch. I can now forward into the song without getting Foobar in full speed mode. However, I have to set the buffer length over 200-300ms or else I get those problems mentioned. Also, it is still quite slow and I have to set the buffer length close to zéro to have a normal response but when I do so Foobar gets in full speed mode when forwarding into the song.

 KS is working! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, I cannot play simultaneously Youtube videos in my Firefox browsers or movies with Media player Classic while Foobar2000 is on pause. KS will stop functioning and I need to close all my programs like Firefox and MPC to get KS working again. Also, it is still a bit slow.

 DS is also a lot better. I get a lot less sound dropoffs or small distortion sounds but I do get some from time to time.

 So far so good. I hope M2Tech can correct those little glitches with the next driver release.

 I don't really need WASAPI and I can stick to KS as long as I'm able to keep my Firefox windows running with media content while using Foobar in KS mode.
 WASAPI will block all other programs using sound and I need to close and restart downloading all the media content in my Firefox browsers. That takes some time and bandwith.

 Regarding that cable, Joe Pitman from Konus.us told me that I should be receiving it this week. I can't wait to try it out and I will let you know what my impressions are. BTW does anyone know how much burning in is required?


----------



## momomo6789

burn in is fake for electronics !


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_burn in is fake for electronics !_

 

Please give advice on something you have a clue about.


----------



## Pacha

This debate is for sure going to go wrong.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_burn in is fake for electronics !_

 

Not true IME, but we'll save this discussion for another thread.


----------



## tosehee

Burn in is true and false, depending on what context you apply that to. Pure SS, I don't think there is one. Tube/speakers? hell yeah. They tend to sound their best after some burn in.


----------



## Pacha

I have problems with mine using KernelStreaming with plugin v3.63 for Winamp. Drivers 1.0.3. Windows XP. Intel chipset.

 I hear clicks for half a second when I press play almost all the time (not when resuming playing, only when starting to play something), which could be fine and is not the most annoying but sometimes after having played a few songs, I hear clicks and pops all the time whenever I start listening to any song. It stops and go back to normal when I try to play other things with another player, or if I reboot, and I can then play music normally through Winamp. This is indeed very annoying.

 Any suggestions?


----------



## punk_guy182

I would email M2Tech and report your findings. I did it and they sent me a a new beta driver that corrected a big chunk of the the problems I had.


----------



## Pacha

That's what I did in fact. I was going to ask for help here only but when I read your post I thought they may send me also a beta version of the latest drivers so I emailed them to see what happens.

 I had a BSOD 15 minutes ago because of SPDIF output stuck and also scratches and pops are still here sometimes, plus playing stops at the end of some song sometimes also.

 I really need to try a new driver.


----------



## Zerotohero

What spec is your cpu and how many services are you running in the background?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have problems with mine using KernelStreaming with plugin v3.63 for Winamp. Drivers 1.0.3. Windows XP. Intel chipset.

 I hear clicks for half a second when I press play almost all the time (not when resuming playing, only when starting to play something), which could be fine and is not the most annoying but sometimes after having played a few songs, I hear clicks and pops all the time whenever I start listening to any song. It stops and go back to normal when I try to play other things with another player, or if I reboot, and I can then play music normally through Winamp. This is indeed very annoying.

 Any suggestions?_


----------



## shadowlord

Hi all!

 Anyone else have problems with using the HiFace on a VIA C7 based system ?

 My sound is heavily distorted. Like 8 bit sounds.

 I tried 2 differnt VIA C7 systems with no luck, but the HiFace works fine on my core2duo system.

 Specs of the C7 systems
 Via C7 processor with 1000MHz
 512 Mb Ram
 400Gb 2,5" Sata HDD
 Windows XP, Foobar2000 with Kernel Streaming Pluggin.


----------



## FauDrei

@shadowlord

 Two questions:

Do you use USB 2.0 socket?
Is your DCP latency under 500µs?
If either of those two answers is "no", and you can not "make it" to be "yes" - no luck, your system is too weak to work properly with hiFace.

 As hiFace FAQ says (you have read it, haven't you?):





> [size=xx-small]7) Which features are required to use hiFace with a PC?
> [/size]
> [size=xx-small] 1.6GHz CPU, 1GB RAM and a 2.0 USB interface are the base requirements to properly [/size][size=xx-small]operate hiFace up to 192kHz/24bit. With lower sampling frequencies, even less powerful [/size][size=xx-small]Pc’s suffice (1.3GHz with 512MB RAM is enough to play 44.1kHz/16bit files).
> [/size]


----------



## shadowlord

Hi FauDrei!

 Yes, it's an USB 2.0 socket. I will try the latency checker tomorrow.

 the CPU of this ITX board may only have 1GHz, but i checked and during playback i see only 20% cpu load.

 btw
 coming from the musiland interface, i kinda miss the settings menu.


----------



## hawkhead

20% !!

 Task manager shows 0 for me


----------



## Pacha

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zerotohero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What spec is your cpu and how many services are you running in the background?_

 

Intel quad core running at 3.20GHz, 4GB of RAM (3GB recognized as I'm using XP 32 bits).
 I have just encountered clicks again in Winamp a few minutes ago, commit charge was 18% and RAM usage 35%. CPU usage was 0%. 25 processes running.
 Thus nothing to deal with a heavy load.

 I had a reply from M2tech asking me the same thing as you did, I gave more information and sent a crash dump analysis, hoping they'll bring me more info and support.


----------



## shadowlord

Marco from M2tech just confirmed to me that my 1Ghz CPU can't handle it.

 i did a bit of research and i think i will buy an Atom based board on my way home.
 I hope a dual core Atom and 1gb (or better 2?) of RAM will do it.
 Only downside is that i will lose the S-video output which i used to select the songs until now.


----------



## Pacha

If you are using XP you may consider buying 2GB, except if you do basic office use of your PC and use light software, you will have more headroom with the available RAM left, plus RAM is cheap now.
 If you are using Vista or 7 you must buy 2GB (especially under Vista which uses by itself around 1GB when no programs are launched) or you will experience frequent slowdowns.


----------



## shadowlord

OS is XP, the pc is dedicated to music listening, so no other programms than Foobar2k and the IR remote software.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shadowlord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marco from M2tech just confirmed to me that my 1Ghz CPU can't handle it.

 i did a bit of research and i think i will buy an Atom based board on my way home.
 I hope a dual core Atom and 1gb (or better 2?) of RAM will do it.
 Only downside is that i will lose the S-video output which i used to select the songs until now._

 

I can confirm that an Atom processor can handle the HiFace. I have not tried it at 192/24, just 44.1/16 but I cannot imagine why it wouldn't be able to. I used my netbook with 2GB RAM (1GB vs 2GB shouldn't make a difference, that's for your operating system and programs -- not running sound drivers) and an N270 (1.6GHz) to make sure the issues I was/am experiencing are software-related.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are using Vista or 7 you must buy 2GB (especially under Vista which uses by itself around 1GB when no programs are launched) or you will experience frequent slowdowns._

 

I agree with you, but would like to point out that the amount of RAM Vista/7 uses is dependent on how much RAM is available so Vista would actually use more like 5-700MB with 1GB of RAM available to it. The operating system caches commonly used programs in memory so that they launch faster. Only a fraction of the RAM is actually being utilized unless you're running a ton of programs, and is made available to your applications if you run out. 

 My desktop and netbook both run Windows 7 -- the desktop uses over 1GB of RAM while the netbook uses just under 500MB with 4 and 2GB, respectively (Yes, I compared when both were running 32-bit as 64-bit uses slightly more). See: Windows Vista I/O technologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pacha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are using XP you may consider buying 2GB, except if you do basic office use of your PC and use light software, you will have more headroom with the available RAM left, plus RAM is cheap now._

 

Mmm... no. RAM is not a magical tool to make your computer go faster when you have a serious bottleneck elsewhere (the VIA C7) especially when he's having issues running only Foobar2000. 2GB of RAM wasn't necessary when XP came out nor when SP2 came out, and it still isn't.


----------



## shadowlord

Installed the new Mobo last night, now the HiFace works fine. Thank you all for the help.
 I hope i can find some time to listen to it this weekend and post a small review.

 just to be on the save side i installed 2GB of RAM.
 I can remember when XP first came out, a lot of people i know (and myself to) had to upgrade to 256Mb Ram to be XP ready


----------



## GerardA

Hi All,
 I got my new HiFace two days ago, but the happiness was shortlived.
 The HTPC freezes beacause of AMD SB700(Gigabyte), the laptop (Centrino) plays but with hicups and I have to do a reboot before I can play a second album.

 Now I'm thinking to replace the Mobo with a new one with nVidia 8300 chipset.
 Or will a pcie-to-usb-card work?
 Or better change to intel?

 Or should I wait for new drivers?

 Gerard.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi All,
 I got my new HiFace two days ago, but the happiness was shortlived.
 The HTPC freezes beacause of AMD SB700(Gigabyte), the laptop (Centrino) plays but with hicups and I have to do a reboot before I can play a second album.

 Now I'm thinking to replace the Mobo with a new one with nVidia 8300 chipset.
 Or will a pcie-to-usb-card work?
 Or better change to intel?

 Or should I wait for new drivers?

 Gerard._

 

I'd wait for new drivers, it's clearly a software issue that they know about and seem to be working on. The latest beta driver fixed the freezing for me, but still no sound.


----------



## GerardA

So I'll wait.
 But maybe somebody can post the beta-drivers somewhere,
 or doesn't Marco want this to happen?
 Then at least I can maybe use the laptop.


----------



## Pacha

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *somestranger26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with you, but would like to point out that the amount of RAM Vista/7 uses is dependent on how much RAM is available so Vista would actually use more like 5-700MB with 1GB of RAM available to it. The operating system caches commonly used programs in memory so that they launch faster. Only a fraction of the RAM is actually being utilized unless you're running a ton of programs, and is made available to your applications if you run out. 

 My desktop and netbook both run Windows 7 -- the desktop uses over 1GB of RAM while the netbook uses just under 500MB with 4 and 2GB, respectively (Yes, I compared when both were running 32-bit as 64-bit uses slightly more). See: Windows Vista I/O technologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



 Mmm... no. RAM is not a magical tool to make your computer go faster when you have a serious bottleneck elsewhere (the VIA C7) especially when he's having issues running only Foobar2000. 2GB of RAM wasn't necessary when XP came out nor when SP2 came out, and it still isn't._

 

I agree with you on Vista RAM usage depending on the total amount available, I know that. But though it doesnt use all the RAM it allocates for itself all the time, it is still slow using 1GB when doing almost nothing. I found all that is allocated by Superfetch does not make the whole thing as fast as it is supposed to be with that tech.
 I do as a part time job computer troubleshooting and saw many different computers running vista slowly with 1GB, and much smoother when I upgraded them to 2GB. And with several scenarios, from the basic and clean installation with little programs running to the heavy loaded complete trash.


 I didn't say that under XP he will need 2GB as it is definitely not needed as you said, a fresh and clean installation of XP SP2 32 bits uses 250-300MB and thus 2GB is not needed. I just recommanded him to upgrade to 2GB if he does quite heavy multitasking and not basic office use (that's why I asked him). Because he could also run with 512MB for instance but will have more commit charge and experience slowdowns because more memory will be paged and will spend his time waiting for the hard drive if he does heavy tasks. I did myself changed my usage over the last 10 years with XP and upgraded from 256MB to 512MB to 1GB to 2GB to 4GB because it suited my needs and was not useless upgrades. Though it certainly will not make the PC faster as you said. Just not slower sometimes in some specific scenarios.


----------



## Pacha

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But maybe somebody can post the beta-drivers somewhere,
 or doesn't Marco want this to happen?_

 

I am also very interested. 
 Marco didn't send me the beta driver though he transfered my report and crash dump to the dev team as he told me, and following the issue with care apparently. So I guess maybe he doesn't want it to be too much spreaded right now, maybe it is considered too much unstable, I don't know.


----------



## punk_guy182

For those interested in the new beta driver, pm me!


----------



## waterlogic

All clicks and static is gone.

 PM me if you would like to have it (not posted yet on M2tech site)


----------



## Pacha

So they've developped the beta drivers for MAC OS and Vista/7 but not XP yet apparently.


----------



## GerardA

Hey Pacha.
 what beta-drivers are you talking about?
 At the website they have 1.03141 for Win7.
 Punk Guy has beta 1.03140 and you have a newer one?
 Would be good to now what versions are around!


----------



## Pacha

Punk Guy sent one to me but it is the Vista/7 driver.
 And waterlogic said he now has Mac OS X driver.

 So, as I said they have apparently finished developping the beta driver for MAC OS and Win 7/Vista.
 The one for XP/2003 is not around yet. I am still waiting impatiently for it as I experience clicks and crashes all day long under XP.


----------



## Il Mostro

Marco sent the beta version of the new OS X drivers today. I can confirm that I no longer have noise on my MBP (mid-2008 with Snow Leopard). This is a terrific interface now that they have worked the Mac bugs out.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Il Mostro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marco sent the beta version of the new OS X drivers today. I can confirm that I no longer have noise on my MBP (mid-2008 with Snow Leopard). This is a terrific interface now that they have worked the Mac bugs out._

 

Can you send me this new driver please?


----------



## mike60

Any news for the owners of motherboards with chipset AMD ? I've a Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H with SB 700. I've installed the HiFace_W7_Vista_103141 driver also but the pc freezes still wen play foobar.


----------



## GerardA

Hi Mike60,

 I'm going to try a Asrock pcie to usb 3 card this week and see if it works with the AMD chips. Marco wrote that some of his customers have their AMD's working with an USB-card.
 Some say a PCI(e) to USB-card has better controllers and sounds better then the mobo-chipset.
 Let you know when it arrives!

 Hope for new drivers too of course!


----------



## mike60

ok I'll waiting your next post.


----------



## momomo6789

you guys can just email the sales email on there website to get drivers from them just saying.


----------



## mike60

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Mike60,

 I'm going to try a Asrock pcie to usb 3 card this week and see if it works with the AMD chips. Marco wrote that some of his customers have their AMD's working with an USB-card.
 Some say a PCI(e) to USB-card has better controllers and sounds better then the mobo-chipset.
 Let you know when it arrives!

 Hope for new drivers too of course!_

 

Hi GerardA today I've put in my pc a pcie to usb 2.0 card and ...
 All ok !!!


----------



## riderforever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some say a PCI(e) to USB-card has better controllers and sounds better then the mobo-chipset._

 

Probably that's because to the USB of the card the hiFace is probably the only device connected, while the USB ports of the mobo are shared among the mouse, keyboard, external hd, printers and whatelse!

 Just a guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mike60* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi GerardA today I've put in my pc a pcie to usb 2.0 card and ...
 All ok !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Happy to hear that


----------



## Mambosenior

Is there a thread here about this product that only relates to Mac OS users?

 I just bought one of these devices for MacBook Pro (Intel). So far, I am very impressed with it as well as the help from the m2tech folks. After installing the drivers, it's been plug-and-enjoy.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mambosenior* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a thread here about this product that only relates to Mac OS users?

 I just bought one of these devices for MacBook Pro (Intel). So far, I am very impressed with it as well as the help from the m2tech folks. After installing the drivers, it's been plug-and-enjoy._

 

im thinking about buying it as well. Could you compare the output of the HiFace to the optical output of the mbp? and what version of osx are you using? im still trying to find someone using 10.4 to see how it works lol i should just go pay the 30 bucks for snow leopard though...


----------



## ROBSCIX

I am looking forward to testing out one of these units very soon.


----------



## paaj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those interested in the new beta driver, pm me!_

 

This seems to have solved the clicking problem on my Mac Mini/Snow Leopard.

 I put it online for anyone else interested, it's beta so try at your own risk of course.
OSX 10.6 driver 1.044


----------



## Mambosenior

I'm using OSX Leopard. The m2tech easily bests the optical out (have used a glass toslink). I have the RCA version of the m2tech.

 Previously, I had been using a Trends UD 10.1 to connect, via a pricey USB cable, to DAC. The limitation there is: only 16/44 output.


----------



## Kawai_man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mambosenior* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using OSX Leopard. The m2tech easily bests the optical out (have used a glass toslink). I have the RCA version of the m2tech.

 Previously, I had been using a Trends UD 10.1 to connect, via a pricey USB cable, to DAC. The limitation there is: only 16/44 output._

 


 Hi I just bought a ud10.1 I was wondering if you compared the optical out from the ud10 to the optical out from the macbook pro, and if you noticed a difference?


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking forward to testing out one of these units very soon._

 

About time you got here Rob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Don't hold back any impressions from us.


----------



## GerardA

@Mike60
 Congratulations!
 I received the PCIe to USB3 but it did not work.
 After installing drivers, updating bios, finding new drivers, updating firmware I gave up and then I read on the nice small box that it only works with ASRock motherboards
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So I sent it back and ordered a sharkoon, hope it arrives soon, and works well.


----------



## Mambosenior

kawai_man,

 The optical out of the Trends sounded much better than the one out of the MacBook Pro. I also used the coax out of the Trends which I found about-the-same as the optical.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About time you got here Rob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Don't hold back any impressions from us._

 

I have many different types of gear, many of you have been saying this unit supplies a very precise S/pdif signal so I figured it would great to use for external DAC's, digital reference monitors and as part of my toolbox when testing.
 I will post my impressions once I have had a chance to test it out.


----------



## Kawai_man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mambosenior* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_kawai_man,

 The optical out of the Trends sounded much better than the one out of the MacBook Pro. I also used the coax out of the Trends which I found about-the-same as the optical._

 

Cool , so how would you compare the optical from the trends to the coax sound from the m2tech?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Mike60
 Congratulations!
 I received the PCIe to USB3 but it did not work.
 After installing drivers, updating bios, finding new drivers, updating firmware I gave up and then I read on the nice small box that it only works with ASRock motherboards
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So I sent it back and ordered a sharkoon, hope it arrives soon, and works well._

 

haha.. So much time wasted, eh? I guess you missed the small print.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kawai_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool , so how would you compare the optical from the trends to the coax sound from the m2tech?_

 

I'm interested in this comparison as well.

 USG


----------



## Mambosenior

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kawai_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool , so how would you compare the optical from the trends to the coax sound from the m2tech?_

 

The m2 tech provides better sound, all-around, than any/all outputs from the Trends. For the price (which will probably swell like everything else) it’s a unqualified, screaming bargain. At the moment teaming it with the Maverick D1: Another outrageously good buy. I use them going into a Darkvoice 3322 driving the HD-800. The D1 also has a terrific SS earphone out which, much to my surprise, drives the HD-800 without strain or harshness.

 It doesn’t take a large investment of money any more to get top quality sound. If you're sitting on the sidelines and have the necessary cash, you won't regret getting the m2tech or the D1 (or both: m2tech=$150.; D1=$199.).


----------



## rasmushorn

This might be a stupid question? But does the M2Tech support 5.1 Surround? I would like to connect my Mac Mini to my homecinema....


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This might be a stupid question? But does the M2Tech support 5.1 Surround? I would like to connect my Mac Mini to my homecinema...._

 

nope, but you dont need an m2tech hiface to do 5.1 out of your mac mini, you've got optical digital out built in, i use it all the time, specially for movies acquired by less then scrupulous means...


----------



## rasmushorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nope, but you dont need an m2tech hiface to do 5.1 out of your mac mini, you've got optical digital out built in, i use it all the time, specially for movies acquired by less then scrupulous means..._

 

I am using the Optical out now. But my TV only has coax digital input and I have to use a Optical --> COAX converter in between. I just thought that the M2Tech was a great idea and I could throw away that converter and go COAX from the M2Tech. But if it does not support 5.1 I will give it some extra thought. Thanks


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using the Optical out now. But my TV only has coax digital input and I have to use a Optical --> COAX converter in between. I just thought that the M2Tech was a great idea and I could throw away that converter and go COAX from the M2Tech. But if it does not support 5.1 I will give it some extra thought. Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

ah, sorry bout that then...i dont know if any of the usb to SPDIF converters support tranmission of DTS or DD 5.1 . Slim.a would be the one to ask 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 though i have my doubts that they do


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nope, but you dont need an m2tech hiface to do 5.1 out of your mac mini, you've got optical digital out built in, i use it all the time, specially for movies acquired by less then scrupulous means..._

 

it should pass Dolby 5.1 and DTS if its bitperfect, shouldn't be a problem, especially with a Mac.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it should pass Dolby 5.1 and DTS if its bitperfect, shouldn't be a problem, especially with a Mac._

 

i guess it could, i just remember reading somewhere that it didnt, so my knowledge wasnt first hand.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i just dont know what the clock rate would be for a dolby or dts signal, it may not be standard


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i guess it could, i just remember reading somewhere that it didnt, so my knowledge wasnt first hand.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i just dont know what the clock rate would be for a dolby or dts signal, it may not be standard_

 

44.1


----------



## rasmushorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i guess it could, i just remember reading somewhere that it didnt, so my knowledge wasnt first hand.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i just dont know what the clock rate would be for a dolby or dts signal, it may not be standard_

 

Hmm.. ok no problem. I guess it would still be possible to use it then. I might have to ask the producer or the local supplier. 

 If it will not work for my Mac mini with surround I could still use it in between my macbook and iBasso D10. Here I also normally use the optical out but would it be any better using the M2Tech instead of optical out? I mean optiacal out still has possibility for jitter, right?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_44.1_

 

The sampling frequency would be 48khz for films, but that isnt necessarily the clock for the which the data would be transfered. Because DD runs at EDIT: 448kbps(not 480 like i wrote first) i think for dvd's usually, and 640kbps for blu rays, and DTS runs at 768kbps for dvd's and 1.5mbps for blu rays usually, so that would be what would determine the clock for those data streams, since it is an encoded signal, not pcm data.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm.. ok no problem. I guess it would still be possible to use it then. I might have to ask the producer or the local supplier. 

 If it will not work for my Mac mini with surround I could still use it in between my macbook and iBasso D10. Here I also normally use the optical out but would it be any better using the M2Tech instead of optical out? I mean optiacal out still has possibility for jitter, right?_

 

But yeah, your best bet would be to send marco at m2tech an email and ask lol instead of running our heresay. But yes, for regular audio you would certainly gain all of its benefits


----------



## auee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems to have solved the clicking problem on my Mac Mini/Snow Leopard.

 I put it online for anyone else interested, it's beta so try at your own risk of course.
OSX 10.6 driver 1.044_

 

Ok, guys I need your help. My set up now consists of Mac Mini with Snow Leopard, iTunes lossless files on external HD, USB out to DACMagic to amp. The USB input on the DacMagic is not the best sounding and the optical out from Mini to DacMagic was horrible to my ears.

 I am a plug and play computer user. For example, I got exasperated in trying to set up Foobar with drivers on a Dell laptop with Windows XP. Therefore in reading the posts and seeing that the M2tech needs drivers and that the drivers have been causing clicking gives me cause to look for something else. However, I am attracted to this product based on the price and positive comments posted here. 

 So I would be very appreciative is someone lets me know whether the company itself has a non-beta driver that works perfectly with Snow Leopard and where I can find it and instructions for downloading and installing the driver and the unit itself.

 Thanks for the help.


----------



## Mambosenior

Go here and scroll down to the Mac versions.

M2Tech

 I have experienced no "clicking" or other noises with the m2tech on my MacBook Pro (Leopard).


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The sampling frequency would be 48khz for films, but that isnt necessarily the clock for the which the data would be transfered. Because DD runs at EDIT: 448kbps(not 480 like i wrote first) i think for dvd's usually, and 640kbps for blu rays, and DTS runs at 768kbps for dvd's and 1.5mbps for blu rays usually, so that would be what would determine the clock for those data streams, since it is an encoded signal, not pcm data.



 But yeah, your best bet would be to send marco at m2tech an email and ask lol instead of running our heresay. But yes, for regular audio you would certainly gain all of its benefits 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

All my DTS CD's run at 44.1. Anytime I rip a DD or DTS soundtrack off a DVD it is 48khz. When I play it back thru my computer ASIO EMU0404PCI bitperfect verified my reciever decodes. In fact this is the test that most use to determine if a transport is bit-berfect. Search this forum for the old DTS bit-fect test thread. 

 I would be very concerned if the Hi-face doesn't pass this test.


----------



## rasmushorn

I asked M2Tech whether they know if it is possible to transfer 5.1 surround sound through the hiFace. This was their answer:

_"I can't tell for sure as we didn't do any test in our laboratory, but we have some PC users who are using hiFace the way you like. So, I guess it should be possible on Macs also."_

 I guess if noone here has tried this with a Mac I will have to test it myself and just go ahead and buy one.


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *auee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...............
 I am a plug and play computer user. For example, I got exasperated in trying to set up Foobar with drivers on a Dell laptop with Windows XP. Therefore in reading the posts and seeing that the M2tech needs drivers and that the drivers have been causing clicking gives me cause to look for something else. However, I am attracted to this product based on the price and positive comments posted here. 
 ..........._

 

Although my computer skills are mediocre at best, I must have installed foobar on at least 12 Windows xp based machines. I do not recall having to install any drivers in order to make that work. Foobar is probably the most straightforward program one can find. 

 If the pc and mac monopolies did their job properly, we would not need devices like the hiFace. Of course the hiFace needs drivers to bypass all that sound processing! Actually, it's quite a small price to pay to get excellent sound and anyone interested in such sound will definitely put up with installing a few drivers especially when m2Tech provides honest support for them.

 Regards


----------



## rasmushorn

@xdanny: What is a "modded hiFace" - as I can see you have on order... How is it modded?


----------



## xdanny

rasmushorn,

 Cleaner power supply: two separate 3.3V lithium batteries - one for the clocks & one for the Xilinx chip.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked M2Tech whether they know if it is possible to transfer 5.1 surround sound through the hiFace. This was their answer:

"I can't tell for sure as we didn't do any test in our laboratory, but we have some PC users who are using hiFace the way you like. So, I guess it should be possible on Macs also."

 I guess if noone here has tried this with a Mac I will have to test it myself and just go ahead and buy one._

 

S/Pdif is originally specs for stereo audio. There are many devices out there that will transfer Dolby Digital or DTS over S/Pdif but for this to work with all audio on the PC you need an encoder/compressor. 5.1 audio takes up much more bandwidth as it is just much more data and you get the same with DTS.
 Both the encoders avilable now, Dolby Digitla Live and DTS-Connect are lossy encoders. You lose some fidelity in a trade off to make 5.1 audio avilable over S/pdif. 
 Just to be sure, are you just talking about passthrough or 5.1 for all audio on the PC?


----------



## rasmushorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_S/Pdif is originally specs for stereo audio. There are many devices out there that will transfer Dolby Digital or DTS over S/Pdif but for this to work with all audio on the PC you need an encoder/compressor. 5.1 audio takes up much more bandwidth as it is just much more data and you get the same with DTS.
 Both the encoders avilable now, Dolby Digitla Live and DTS-Connect are lossy encoders. You lose some fidelity in a trade off to make 5.1 audio avilable over S/pdif. 
 Just to be sure, are you just talking about passthrough or 5.1 for all audio on the PC?_

 

No my wish is to use a Mac-mini with our TV and at the moment I am transferring music via the Optical out which has to run through a OPtical --> coax converter because the TV only has Coax input. The M2Tech will work perfectly for audio only and at the moment we only have two speakers. I am thinking that in the future we might upgrade with two speakers in the back and a Sub. And when we watch a DVD from the Mac Mini - will we then have sound in all speakers if I use the M2Tech for this purpose?

 I think not - based on what you write. M2Tech has heard from customers who has done it - and nobody knows if it will work on a Mac with the Mac-drivers. I willl have to try this when I get it... at least I have ordered on now


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No my wish is to use a Mac-mini with our TV and at the moment I am transferring music via the Optical out which has to run through a OPtical --> coax converter because the TV only has Coax input. The M2Tech will work perfectly for audio only and at the moment we only have two speakers. I am thinking that in the future we might upgrade with two speakers in the back and a Sub. And when we watch a DVD from the Mac Mini - will we then have sound in all speakers if I use the M2Tech for this purpose?

 I think not - based on what you write. M2Tech has heard from customers who has done it - and nobody knows if it will work on a Mac with the Mac-drivers. I willl have to try this when I get it... at least I have ordered on now
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If they have customer that have done it then they must be talking about just passing through audio from an encoded source such as a DVD as the Hiface has no encoders in this sense. I am waiting for mine so I cannot even suggest if it will work on the PC. Possibly though as I cannot see why it would not allow encoded audio to be passed through on a PC. It may work on a MAC that is just a guees though in both cases as I have not tested it. I wish I could offer more help.


----------



## rasmushorn

I guess we juat have to wait and see. In any way this is a great little gadget and I look forward to be testing it with my iBasso D10 when it arrives next week.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess we juat have to wait and see. In any way this is a great little gadget and I look forward to be testing it with my iBasso D10 when it arrives next week._

 

Yes, I am looking foward to testing it out aswell as the posted results have been great from the owners.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rasmushorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No my wish is to use a Mac-mini with our TV and at the moment I am transferring music via the Optical out which has to run through a OPtical --> coax converter because the TV only has Coax input. The M2Tech will work perfectly for audio only and at the moment we only have two speakers. I am thinking that in the future we might upgrade with two speakers in the back and a Sub. And when we watch a DVD from the Mac Mini - will we then have sound in all speakers if I use the M2Tech for this purpose?

 I think not - based on what you write. M2Tech has heard from customers who has done it - and nobody knows if it will work on a Mac with the Mac-drivers. I willl have to try this when I get it... at least I have ordered on now
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hiface does not have a decoder if I am right. It only gets feed the pcm. If you want 5.1 or any other setup that takes different codec (dts and what not), then this is not for you.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hiface does not have a decoder if I am right. It only gets feed the pcm. If you want 5.1 or any other setup that takes different codec (dts and what not), then this is not for you._

 

thats what i think too, i still dont think it can pass a encoded dts or dd signal, since they wouldnt be at either 44.1 or 48, or multiples thereof in the actual signal.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well there is no mention of an encoder. Pass through would be the most this device would allow and there is no solid information on that either. Looks like there is some testing to be done.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well there is no mention of an encoder. Pass through would be the most this device would allow and there is no solid information on that either. Looks like there is some testing to be done._

 


 Just tried following :

 5.1 file in apple lossless (24bit/96kHz - Mozart Requiem played/sent from Soundtrack Pro 3 (MacPro 2009) through m2tech Hiface gets through (also if sent through digital out i.e. toslink - optical on MacPro). 
 So if you have pass through on your DAC (coax, Toslink) you can feed the signal (probably directly from Hiface works too) to a 5.1 surround receiver.

 Unfortunatelly I could not try the last part (I do not have a surround receiver, speakers) . Maybe someone with 5.1 setup and coax in on the receiver can check this ??

 I could hear the music from my DAC - HP amp - HD800 (probably downmixed to stereo or sth.) so looks the signal with 5.1 information gets through Hiface unaltered ?

 As you know itunes can not play 5.1 files (not yet). I believe Audacity can play 5.1 as well or some other player supporting 5.1.

 Matrix Mini i DAC & HP Amp has a coax out (pass through) for example.

 Cheers


----------



## paaj

I"m using the HiFace on a Mac Mini with image to a television and audio routed to my headphone amp. I notice a big gap between sound and image that is not there with the optical output. Maybe this is what they programmed to get rid of the crackles?


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I"m using the HiFace on a Mac Mini with image to a television and audio routed to my headphone amp. I notice a big gap between sound and image that is not there with the optical output. Maybe this is what they programmed to get rid of the crackles?_

 

Interesting. Playing a HD movie with VLC (macmini) or quicktime (audio goes through Hiface) no gaps here ? Note: Snow leopard last version.

 Can you specify what are you doing, which player are you using?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just tried following :

 5.1 file in apple lossless (24bit/96kHz - Mozart Requiem played/sent from Soundtrack Pro 3 (MacPro 2009) through m2tech Hiface gets through (also if sent through digital out i.e. toslink - optical on MacPro). 
 So if you have pass through on your DAC (coax, Toslink) you can feed the signal (probably directly from Hiface works too) to a 5.1 surround receiver.

 Unfortunatelly I could not try the last part (I do not have a surround receiver, speakers) . Maybe someone with 5.1 setup and coax in on the receiver can check this ??

 I could hear the music from my DAC - HP amp - HD800 (probably downmixed to stereo or sth.) so looks the signal with 5.1 information gets through Hiface unaltered ?

 As you know itunes can not play 5.1 files (not yet). I believe Audacity can play 5.1 as well or some other player supporting 5.1.

 Matrix Mini i DAC & HP Amp has a coax out (pass through) for example.

 Cheers_

 

I figured it would allow pasthrough....


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I figured it would allow pasthrough...._

 

Depending on the format of the 5.1 file it may be decoding in the computer and just sending two speaker PCM.

 The way to find out is to lower the volume in your computer audio program, it should turn to static on the speakers if the reciever is doing the decoding as the volume change corrputs the encoding.


----------



## paaj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting. Playing a HD movie with VLC (macmini) or quicktime (audio goes through Hiface) no gaps here ? Note: Snow leopard last version.

 Can you specify what are you doing, which player are you using?_

 

it's with various 350mb episodes, tried with VLC/Quicktime and I have played with the timing correction settings in VLC, from -200 to 200 in various steps but it does not seem to help. Sound is later than the image which is unusual with HDTV use. Not subtile either at almost a second... it's not there with optical so it is related to the HiFace drivers. 
 I mainly use headphones for music so it's no real problem at the moment but I do fear my coming digital piano setup plan where I want to use a MIDI input modeled piano (Pianoteq 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## SoupRKnowva

that is kind of unfortunate that it ahd a delay...i mainly use it for music, but when iu download anime id rather not have to switch back to optical into my dac19. which as a funny side note, every episode of FMA brotherhood when i was using my HT reciever had high frequency noise and weird crackling either through headphones or speakers, but now that im using the dac its all gone? im not complaining, im just curious if anyone has any idea?


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's with various 350mb episodes, tried with VLC/Quicktime and I have played with the timing correction settings in VLC, from -200 to 200 in various steps but it does not seem to help. Sound is later than the image which is unusual with HDTV use. Not subtile either at almost a second... it's not there with optical so it is related to the HiFace drivers. 
 I mainly use headphones for music so it's no real problem at the moment but I do fear my coming digital piano setup plan where I want to use a MIDI input modeled piano (Pianoteq 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)._

 

HI !

 After further investigation I have to confirm that you are right about gaps with VLC and Quicktime. The problem is absent with only few 720p hd films.
 Talking to a friend who has the same setup (MacMini 2009, 2GB ram, Panasonic Plasma, Hiface) - but he watches a lot of movies (I do music only most of the time), he said I should use PLEX player with HD movies.

 In his opinion VLC, Quicktime players are not suited for HD (yet) - so it is a software issue and not the Hiface or MacMini processing power.
 I downloaded and installed Plex Plex Media Center for OS X checked with few 1080p and 720p movies - no gaps anymore.

 Hope this helps!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HI !

 After further investigation I have to confirm that you are right about gaps with VLC and Quicktime. The problem is absent with only few 720p hd films.
 Talking to a friend who has the same setup (MacMini 2009, 2GB ram, Panasonic Plasma, Hiface) - but he watches a lot of movies (I do music only most of the time), he said I should use PLEX player with HD movies.

 In his opinion VLC, Quicktime players are not suited for HD (yet) - so it is a software issue and not the Hiface or MacMini processing power.
 I downloaded and installed Plex Plex Media Center for OS X checked with few 1080p and 720p movies - no gaps anymore.

 Hope this helps!_

 


 Thats the nice thing about Macs, every player is bitperfect no kmixer. On a PC I wouldn't have a clue how to get DTS/DD passthru with a video player.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

yeah, with vlc its a menu bar option and with MPlayer OSX extended edition(my personal favorite video player) its a check box in preferences


----------



## rasmushorn

This is good news indeed. Now I look forward to recieve the hiface both for video and for headphone enjoyment.


----------



## GerardA

@Mike60 Quote:


 Hi GerardA today I've put in my pc a pcie to usb 2.0 card and ... 
 

I finally received my Freecom PCIe to USB3 card and no succes...
 The hiFace installs but no sound. Also in the properties there are no samplingrates and it can not be tested.

 I put the latest southbridge drivers (10.3) and the the onboard usb 2 looks good with the hiFace but also no sound.

 Mike, what brand of PCIe to USB card do you use?

 And are there more people having succes with AMD-chipsets with hiFace?


----------



## Pacha

Still no new beta nor final release for XP yet.


----------



## paaj

Strange thing about the gaps though, is that is much much less using the optical output. (still not perfect but really good enough). And it's not HD content that has to be decoded so processor power should not be a problem. Anyway, I'll try Plex later to see how that works.


----------



## mike60

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Mike60

 Mike, what brand of PCIe to USB card do you use?
_

 

I'm using a NEC uPD720101 USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller .


----------



## momomo6789

go get cccp and never worry about videos again ^_^


----------



## GerardA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mike60* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using a NEC uPD720101 USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller .
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And might that be a Belkin card? Or another brand?
 I've been looking at the Belkin PCIe-version, but for the price you can almost buy a new motherboard. Or did you find an alternative?


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And might that be a Belkin card? Or another brand?
 I've been looking at the Belkin PCIe-version, but for the price you can almost buy a new motherboard. Or did you find an alternative?_

 

I'm not sure why you would buy a Belkin card when they're marked up about 400% over generic brands. There are a ton of cards using the NEC controller and they're all going to perform the same unless they're defective. $10 here: Amazon.com: SYBA PCI USB 2.0 Controller Card 4+1 Ports - uPD720101: Electronics


----------



## GerardA

I only have a PCIe slot available...
 So all cheap cards are PCI and not PCIe.
 I only found the Belkin PCIe-card, but I guess there must be others out there...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Can I ask what is the point of using the Hiface with a controller card, are user finding it a better USB interface for use with this unit?
 Just curious about this.


----------



## GerardA

Quote:


 Can I ask what is the point of using the Hiface with a controller card, are user finding it a better USB interface for use with this unit? 
 

It is supposed to be a solution for the poor people that are using an AMD-based motherboard with SB700 chipset. This chipset does not have proper USB-support, or the hiFace drivers don't work correctly with them.
 Mike60 had success but with PCI/USB2 i.s.o. PCIe/USB3.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is supposed to be a solution for the poor people that are using an AMD-based motherboard with SB700 chipset. This chipset does not have proper USB-support, or the hiFace drivers don't work correctly with them.
 Mike60 had success but with PCI/USB2 i.s.o. PCIe/USB3._

 

OK, I must have missed that. Thanx for the information.
 One more thing, is it the mobo, the Hiface or both that is causing the incompatibility?


----------



## momomo6789

hiface drivers.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's with various 350mb episodes, tried with VLC/Quicktime and I have played with the timing correction settings in VLC, from -200 to 200 in various steps but it does not seem to help. Sound is later than the image which is unusual with HDTV use. Not subtile either at almost a second... it's not there with optical so it is related to the HiFace drivers. 
 I mainly use headphones for music so it's no real problem at the moment but I do fear my coming digital piano setup plan where I want to use a MIDI input modeled piano (Pianoteq 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)._

 

This is the hiFace driver's buffering that's why there's this audio delay. I have to set audio in VLC to 500-600msec advance to keep it in sync with the video (ie. Audio delay -500msec). Looks like this is the price to eliminate the clicks and pops on some Apple hardware by buffering.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hiface drivers._

 

Good to know. Thanks.


----------



## sleepy dan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sebhelyesfarku* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the hiFace driver's buffering that's why there's this audio delay. I have to set audio in VLC to 500-600msec advance to keep it in sync with the video (ie. Audio delay -500msec). Looks like this is the price to eliminate the clicks and pops on some Apple hardware by buffering._

 


 Apparently the new driver coming will allow users to specify buffer size. I'm getting clicks and pops with the Windows Direct Sound driver, so this should fix it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

What output options are presented when using this device?
 It is compatible with Direct sound and what else?


----------



## momomo6789

ds wasabi ks


----------



## mmerrill99

I just started a thread on my modded hiface here http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/mod...-units-481293/ for those wishing to hear a leap in sound quality above the already excellent sounding stock hiface.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ds wasabi ks_

 

Thanks. I have one on the way but I am doing some research on them before it gets here.


----------



## GerardA

Quote:


 I'm using a NEC uPD720101 USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller . 
 

Today tried a PCI to USB2.0 card with VIA 6212 chip.
 It works. I hear sound through the hiFace, but... very distorted.
 Most cards available here (Holland) have the Via-chip, but I'll have to find one with the NEC-chip!!!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just started a thread on my modded hiface here http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/mod...-units-481293/ for those wishing to hear a leap in sound quality above the already excellent sounding stock hiface._

 

Wow, great stuff. Thanks for the thread!


----------



## sleepy dan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What output options are presented when using this device?_

 

Just the basic stuff - word length and sample rate.


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats the nice thing about Macs, every player is bitperfect no kmixer. On a PC I wouldn't have a clue how to get DTS/DD passthru with a video player._

 

You would think so, but it has been determined by lots of listeners that Mac audio stack also mucks-up the sound quality. I dont know how or why, but it definitely does. Later versions of iTunes are a bit better, but still not there IMO. This is why software such as Amarra and Pure Vinyl sells for so much money. It fixes more than jitter in iTunes. Its worth it if you have a resolving system IMO.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## shadowlord

while listening to my Hiface on the weekend i noticed that the Hiface produces a lot of crazy noise (static/digital noise) during booting of the computers. it goes away as soon as windows loads. The noise is really loud, the music i start with the same volume setting is not as loud as the noise!

 anybody else noticed this ? i tried different usb settings in bios with no luck.
 any ideas ?


----------



## Fujak

Hi shadowlord,

 I also noticed this digital noise while starting my Netbook connected to Hiface and DAC. So my starting procedure is first strating the Netbook and then switching on DAC and finally Amp. In any way it is the best sequence of starting up. The Speakers/Headphones will thank you for this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Regards 
 Fujak


----------



## shadowlord

i noticed that it only happens during a cold boot.
 When re-booting the system there is no noise,


----------



## GerardA

I found a PCI to USB2 card with NEC chip here for 10 Euro: Longshine is VET met DT

 And guess what? It works!

 So USB from AMD-chipset: No
 PCIe to USB3 (Nec) : No
 PCI to USB2 (Via) : Yes but distorted.
 PCI to USB2 (Nec) : YES!


----------



## Fujak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found a PCI to USB2 card with NEC chip here for 10 Euro: Longshine is VET met DT

 And guess what? It works!

 So USB from AMD-chipset: No
 PCIe to USB3 (Nec) : No
 PCI to USB2 (Via) : Yes but distorted.
 PCI to USB2 (Nec) : YES!







_

 

We are talking about conversion of audio signal from USB to SPDIF and not conversion of PCI to USB. Can't catch your point how your posting is concerned with the topic of this thread.

 Kind regards
 Fujak


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fujak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We are talking about conversion of audio signal from USB to SPDIF and not conversion of PCI to USB. Can't catch your point how your posting is concerned with the topic of this thread.

 Kind regards
 Fujak_

 

He is talking about using a PCI to USB add in card as IIRC, some of the add-in cards people had tried had issue with this device.


----------



## regal

Because the Hiface drivers aren't mature enough to deal with all PC configurations yet. Still waiting before I buy mine.


----------



## Fujak

@ROBSCIX and regal

 Thanks for your explanation, this made things clearer for me. Fortunately the Hiface deals with my configuration (Asus EEE PC).

 Kind regards
 Fujak


----------



## ROBSCIX

I think in most cases you're OK, just it has been posted that with some when using PCI to USB add-in cards there is some compatibility issues.


----------



## regal

Another interesting thing about PCI is it allows a mod to a completely separate high quality powersupply, so none of the issues with the Hiface being galvanically isolated from the PC.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another interesting thing about PCI is it allows a mod to a completely separate high quality powersupply, so none of the issues with the Hiface being galvanically isolated from the PC._

 

Do you mean with an adapter card?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you mean with an adapter card?_

 

Yes with a PCI-USB adapter card it is possible to power the PCI card completely separate from the computer, so the Hiface becomes galvanically isolated from the computer which is an issue people have been dealing with.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes with a PCI-USB adapter card it is possible to power the PCI card completely separate from the computer, so the Hiface becomes galvanically isolated from the computer which is an issue people have been dealing with._

 

Is there any cards made like this or do you have to DIY it.
 I have seen some PCI-E to PCI that allow you to add in a seperate power supply. Are you using a system like this or just mentioning it?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any cards made like this or do you have to DIY it.
 I have seen some PCI-E to PCI that allow you to add in a seperate power supply. Are you using a system like this or just mentioning it?_

 

Do you have a link? I think you are seeing a plug to add extra power not replacing it. I have not set up a system like this, but plan to when I am satisfied that Hiface has their drivers 100%. It is a dIY mod, If you search the computer audio forum I believe there is a post where this was done to the soundcard (JULI@) people were using to get I2S out last year, I'll see if I can find it. It was a similiar situation to what we are facing with the Hiface.


----------



## GerardA

Here is a link to a pcie to pci connector were you can add a separate powersupply:

PCI Express to PCI Adapter


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have a link? I think you are seeing a plug to add extra power not replacing it. I have not set up a system like this, but plan to when I am satisfied that Hiface has their drivers 100%. It is a dIY mod, If you search the computer audio forum I believe there is a post where this was done to the soundcard (JULI@) people were using to get I2S out last year, I'll see if I can find it. It was a similiar situation to what we are facing with the Hiface._

 

Oh, possibly I was just going from memory. IIRC, PCI has additional power requirments that PCI-E doesn't have. Again, I am not sure without looking through my notes. Here is an example of the units I have seen: Adapter
 If you find the link post it...


----------



## tosehee

This new PCIe to PCI + Hiface + USB Addon. This thing quickly adds up..


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This new PCIe to PCI + Hiface + USB Addon. This thing quickly adds up.. _

 

If cost is an issue just buy one of the 3.3V batteries to power the clocks, thats the biggest bang for your buck, instructions on the diyaudio thread. You can get two batteries and a charger for $23 from awwan01@yahoo.com.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a link to a pcie to pci connector were you can add a separate powersupply:

PCI Express to PCI Adapter_

 

Interesting ideas, guys but "real" galvanic isolation means BOTH ground & power are isolated - I believe these solutions still leave the grounds connected between computer & Hiface. Two reasons for isolating the grounds are possible dirty ground from PC & ground loops caused by the connection.

 That link also shows an add-on card that requires 12V & 5V supply & I presume it is regulated down to whatever voltages required? Is this regulation any better than the PC's supply - who knows?

 Regal, your link is just an email address - I presume this is a mistake?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Regal, your link is just an email address - I presume this is a mistake?_

 

No he is a seller of these batteries.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting ideas, guys but "real" galvanic isolation means BOTH ground & power are isolated - I believe these solutions still leave the grounds connected between computer & Hiface. Two reasons for isolating the grounds are possible dirty ground from PC & ground loops caused by the connection.

 That link also shows an add-on card that requires 12V & 5V supply & I presume it is regulated down to whatever voltages required? Is this regulation any better than the PC's supply - who knows?

 Regal, your link is just an email address - I presume this is a mistake?_

 

OK, so if both devices are sharing the ground but nothing else, how can there be any noise transfered between them? 

 @Regal, you're considering using rechargables for a power source?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, so if both devices are sharing the ground but nothing else, how can there be any noise transfered between them? 

 @Regal, you're considering using rechargables for a power source?_

 

Ah, ground planes are such a sticky area in electronics - I won't pretend to be an expert but in my reading I've seen that the idea of a ground plane as just being a 0V, neutral area is misplaced. 

 It is the return path for currents & completes the circuit. It is an area that can have current loops & can have voltage differences between different parts of it.

 This is because it is NOT zero impedance i.e. it has some resistance & different resistances in different parts of it & so there can be voltage differences between these areas.

 These issues can give rise to noise problems in sensitive digital circuits.

 This is my simplistic understanding of this complex area


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, ground planes are such a sticky area in electronics - I won't pretend to be an expert but in my reading I've seen that the idea of a ground plane as just being a 0V, neutral area is misplaced. 

 It is the return path for currents & completes the circuit. It is an area that can have current loops & can have voltage differences between different parts of it._

 

Quite right. Also, you can have crosstalk between traces above the plane.

  Quote:


 This is because it is NOT zero impedance i.e. it has some resistance & different resistances in different parts of it & so there can be voltage differences between these areas. 
 

Actually the inductance, not the resistance is usually the issue.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quite right. Also, you can have crosstalk between traces above the plane.



 Actually the inductance, not the resistance is usually the issue.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Thank you, Steve, for the correction my L plates are still warranted & my lack of e'ee background is showing.


----------



## leeperry

I'm not sure what the plan is w/ those PCI>PCI-E adapters, but both I and other friends tried several of them and they didn't pass 12V at all...it'd make sense considering a vanilla PCI card is not supposed to be using it I guess.


----------



## GerardA

Isn't the 12V supposed to come from the Molex-connector and passed from the adapter to the PCI-card? (If this needs 12V?)

 What about an inductor in the groundconnection?
 Shouldn't this block high frequency garbage?
 Or is it part of the signalconnection-loop?


----------



## leeperry

yes, but they don't seem to let it go through the PCI connector...we tried several adapters and several soundcards that needed 12V and that was a no-go, only the 5V DSP's were working.

 but well I'm not saying jkeny couldn't get it working


----------



## regal

I can't find the thread but I know there was a modder here a year or so back who was taking I2S directly from the PCI Juli@ soundcard, he had issues with the ground very similiar to the issues folks are having taking I2S from the Hiface and was powering the PCI card from a completely separate powersupply. This was before adapters like have been posted, he cut traces and soldered.


 Also I probably will go the battery route, but there is also the Salas LV Shunt regulator that looks nice on diyaudio.


----------



## regal

Hey I have one other question. My DAC has a BNC input so logically I should buy the BNC version of the Hiface. If down the road I change DAC's is there an adapter or adapter cord to go BNC to Coax(RCA) ?


----------



## paaj

yes, you can get small RCA-BNC bits for that


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey I have one other question. My DAC has a BNC input so logically I should buy the BNC version of the Hiface. If down the road I change DAC's is there an adapter or adapter cord to go BNC to Coax(RCA) ?_

 

Regal are you happy with the M2tech drivers now?

 If you get a Stereovox cable it comes in BNC with RCA adaptors.
 It's avery good cable but not as good as the Oyaide 510


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, ground planes are such a sticky area in electronics - I won't pretend to be an expert but in my reading I've seen that the idea of a ground plane as just being a 0V, neutral area is misplaced. 

 It is the return path for currents & completes the circuit. It is an area that can have current loops & can have voltage differences between different parts of it.

 This is because it is NOT zero impedance i.e. it has some resistance & different resistances in different parts of it & so there can be voltage differences between these areas.

 These issues can give rise to noise problems in sensitive digital circuits.

 This is my simplistic understanding of this complex area_

 

I understand your reasoning and your right it can be a very complex topic in electronics design. I guess it can depend on the design but ideally, total isolation is the idea for some. Having no electrical connection between the source and the DAC.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't find the thread but I know there was a modder here a year or so back who was taking I2S directly from the PCI Juli@ soundcard, he had issues with the ground very similiar to the issues folks are having taking I2S from the Hiface and was powering the PCI card from a completely separate powersupply. This was before adapters like have been posted, he cut traces and soldered.


 Also I probably will go the battery route, but there is also the Salas LV Shunt regulator that looks nice on diyaudio._

 

It would depend on the design but in saome cases you would require a common ground and in others you won't. 

 I would be interested in hearing your plans for the battery power supply.
 Are you doing other modifications also to improve quality?
 I am interested in peoples DIY ideas and tests.

 Has anybody considered a optical modification? 
 Aside from the this is better then that argument....has it been done by anyone?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If down the road I change DAC's is there an adapter or adapter cord to go BNC to Coax(RCA) ?_

 

sure, there are adapters...widely used in the video world, but the induced jitter might make your ears bleed. for real. I'm not kidding.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey I have one other question. My DAC has a BNC input so logically I should buy the BNC version of the Hiface. If down the road I change DAC's is there an adapter or adapter cord to go BNC to Coax(RCA) ?_

 

For only $0.67 each when QTY 50+ purchased - BNC Male to RCA Female Adaptor - Gold Plated | BNC <--> RCA Adaptors

 or

For only $1.79 each when QTY 50+ purchased - BNC M/ RCA M RG59U - 6ft | BNC/RCA Cables

 or

For only $0.48 each when QTY 50+ purchased - BNC Female to RCA Male Adaptor - Gold Plated | BNC <--> RCA Adaptors

 Lotsa choices there


----------



## rasmushorn

I received my HiFace today. I find the sound getting more body and texture when using the HiFace feeding the iBasso D10 as DAC as when compared to it being fed optically. I also noticed a kind of very thin hiss dissapeared. It was a kind of almost not audible hiss and I only noticed it when I go back and forth between optical and the HiFace feeding the D10. Could this be jitter I am hearing on the optical and not hearing through the HiFace? 
 All I can say is that I am very satisfied with the HiFace. Now I am going to try using it in the homecinema from a Mac Mini. It will be interresting to see if it will transmit 5.1 surround.


----------



## LeBaron

Hello,

 I am new here. I have been reading this thread and the one by Slim.A about the HiFace (among others) from start to end but I still haven’t found the answer I am looking for. I might have missed it, If so, please forgive me. 

 At the moment I am building an HTPC and I am looking for a solution to get the audio to my HT preamp. Not to a standalone dac or something like that. And I am also skipping the HDMI bandwagon, since the analogue stage and the dacs of my ht preamp aren’t easily matched. And I am not going to trade it in for something else because of HDMI.

 I have been reading a lot here and on other forums, and I was thinking the Musiland Monitor US 02 or the M2Tech HiFace. Last one is my favorite. Especially since my HT preamp accepts BNC. The one modded by Jkeny has my attention.

 My question is: Does the HiFace do DD/DTS passthrough? Movies are just as important for me as music.

 The Musiland does, according to their website. I mailed Marco from M2Tech with this question. His answer was that some people got it working with the HiFace. Can someone confirm this? Without DD/DTS pass-through I will have to skip the HiFace. And I don’t like a compromise when it comes to 2 channel music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I came to the Hiface (or Musiland), since I want my htpc to act as an superior audiophile media player as well, not just a dvd/bluray player. Although it is more of a home theater question, I choose to post it here since the thorough audiophile approach to computer audio I came across here at Head Fi. I found that most users on HT forums seem to be less picky, as long as the device does DD/DTS through spdif.

 But perhaps I am missing something. Isn’t it merely a question of data throughput, since my ht preamp does all the decoding? Can an usb->spdif device -not- do it?

 My question is about usb – spdif transports, and mainly the M2Tech HiFace. Since I only need to connect the htpc to the preamp, this device looks perfect. 

 Another question:

 My (current) HT preamp has an s/pdif bnc input, but this is rare amongst these devices. I’m planning to go for the BNC HiFace for now. But if I must attach it to another preamp over time (with rca only), would it ‘hurt’ if I put a bnc-rca coupling in-between? Otherwise it would be a better choice to go for the rca HiFace now.

 Regards,

 Joost


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeBaron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello,

 I am new here. I have been reading this thread and the one by Slim.A about the HiFace (among others) from start to end but I still haven’t found the answer I am looking for. I might have missed it, If so, please forgive me. 

 At the moment I am building an HTPC and I am looking for a solution to get the audio to my HT preamp. Not to a standalone dac or something like that. And I am also skipping the HDMI bandwagon, since the analogue stage and the dacs of my ht preamp aren’t easily matched. And I am not going to trade it in for something else because of HDMI.

 I have been reading a lot here and on other forums, and I was thinking the Musiland Monitor US 02 or the M2Tech HiFace. Last one is my favorite. Especially since my HT preamp accepts BNC. The one modded by Jkeny has my attention.

 My question is: Does the HiFace do DD/DTS passthrough? Movies are just as important for me as music.

 The Musiland does, according to their website. I mailed Marco from M2Tech with this question. His answer was that some people got it working with the HiFace. Can someone confirm this? Without DD/DTS pass-through I will have to skip the HiFace. And I don’t like a compromise when it comes to 2 channel music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I came to the Hiface (or Musiland), since I want my htpc to act as an superior audiophile media player as well, not just a dvd/bluray player. Although it is more of a home theater question, I choose to post it here since the thorough audiophile approach to computer audio I came across here at Head Fi. I found that most users on HT forums seem to be less picky, as long as the device does DD/DTS through spdif.

 But perhaps I am missing something. Isn’t it merely a question of data throughput, since my ht preamp does all the decoding? Can an usb->spdif device -not- do it?

 My question is about usb – spdif transports, and mainly the M2Tech HiFace. Since I only need to connect the htpc to the preamp, this device looks perfect. 

 Another question:

 My (current) HT preamp has an s/pdif bnc input, but this is rare amongst these devices. I’m planning to go for the BNC HiFace for now. But if I must attach it to another preamp over time (with rca only), would it ‘hurt’ if I put a bnc-rca coupling in-between? Otherwise it would be a better choice to go for the rca HiFace now.

 Regards,

 Joost_

 

I managed to get 5.1 pass-through with Hiface.

 Go BNC always (with RCA it is impossible to get 75 Ohm on the connection line) - if you need a RCA later on you can use an BNC-RCA adapter.


----------



## LeBaron

Ha, that sounds good. Did you have to do something special for that? And was that with pc or Mac?


----------



## shadowlord

after solving most of the problems with my Hiface after i received it, it was playing fine for a few weeks.
 But since today i get at random errors with playback. Foobar reports:  Quote:


 unrecoverable playback error : I/O error 
 

 and stops playback.
 When i hit play, it plays again until the next error happens.

 Nothing was changed on the system.
 To be honest, after all the problems i lost faith in the build quality of the Hiface unit.


----------



## FauDrei

This sounds like buffering issue: try playing with _Buffer Length_ and _Output data format_ in Foobar's _Prerferences->Playback->Output_.

 Old/slow machine?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shadowlord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be honest, after all the problems i lost faith in the build quality of the Hiface unit._

 

I also read about random BSOD's, writing proper drivers is indeed rocket science...I'll wait for a while before picking one(possibly second hand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## rosgr63

shadowlord have you reported this to M2tech?
 And if you have what did they say?


----------



## shadowlord

i have yet to report it to m2tech.

 the pc is new and dedicated as a music server (so no other load).
 2x1.6 GHz Atom processor, 2gb ram
 Foobars buffer length is 1000ms. output is via KS.

 based on recommendation i had the output format on 24bit but that led to clicks when changing tracks. So i set it to 16 bit and the clicks are gone.
 the problem that the Hiface makes loud noises during boot up still exists. (but thats a minor annoyance)

 i tried if i can re-produce the "unrecoverable playback error" and found out that it happens more often after manually changing tracks. but as i said already it was running fine for over 3 weeks until yesterday.


 i raise the buffer length to 2000ms and see if that helps.


----------



## xdanny

@shadowlord

 Does your foobar also crash without the hiFace connected?

 If yes, then I would try to get some help over at the hydrogen foobar forums. Your problem may not necessarily be hiFace related. Those guys will have you post error logs and figure out exactly what causes the crash.

 As far as the loud noises during the cold boot, if I remember correctly about 3 pages back Fujak made a good observation. The sequence these components are turned on in is important. I never turn my amp on before the preamp, or I get loud pops that can damage my speakers. 

 Do keep us posted of your findings...

 Regards


----------



## regal

When my Hiface arrives I am going to do a different mod than the Jenky. I plan on the classic Tenlabs XO low jitter clock on a flea board PS. Should give lower jitter and no batteries to charge. The board is cheap and available, the tent labs XO is a little pricey but has a very good rep. I'm only doing this for the RBCD clock as I don't listen to anything else. Need to find a USB male to female adapter. The flea is a NFP so I will post pictures and share to this thread how to do the mod.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When my Hiface arrives I am going to do a different mod than the Jenky. I plan on the classic Tenlabs XO low jitter clock on a flea board PS. Should give lower jitter and no batteries to charge. The board is cheap and available, the tent labs XO is a little pricey but has a very good rep. I'm only doing this for the* RBCD clock* as I don't listen to anything else. Need to find a USB male to female adapter. The flea is a NFP so I will post pictures and share to this thread how to do the mod._

 

Hi Regal

 Embarrassing as this is, I wonder if you could explain this a little more. I don't know what a RBCD clock is or what you mean by you "don't listen to anything else".

 USG


----------



## mattkosem

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Regal

 Embarrassing as this is, I wonder if you could explain this a little more. I don't know what a RBCD clock is or what you mean by you "don't listen to anything else".

 USG_

 

I believe he's refering to Red Book audio, aka retail audio CDs.

 --Matt


----------



## xdanny

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Regal

 Embarrassing as this is, I wonder if you could explain this a little more. I don't know what a RBCD clock is or what you mean by you "don't listen to anything else".

 USG_

 

I'm a bit confused also, and I'm sure it's my lack of knowledge...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @regal: unless you play your cd's on the pc via foobar or other program compatible with the hiFace, how would this mod affect the way you listen to your cd's? Also, what is a RBCD clock?

 Regards


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xdanny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a bit confused also, and I'm sure it's my lack of knowledge...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 @regal: unless you play your cd's on the pc via foobar or other program compatible with the hiFace, how would this mod affect the way you listen to your cd's? Also, what is a RBCD clock?

 Regards_

 

What really makes the Hiface a step above is not the asynch USB its the fact that they designed it to have two clocks. One is a 48khz(DVD) multiple and one is a 44.1khz(RBCD) multiple. When you listen to normal CD's it is fantastic that Hiface put an extra clock to get accurate non PLL derived timing. We consumers haven't seen this in a long time. Ever notice that your new DVD player is a crumby transport vs your 15 year old CDP? This is why (because the DVD players only have a 48 mult clock.)

 Now Tent Labs sells for all practicle purposes the lowest Jitter clocks available. And there was a DIY project on PinkFishMedia.com a few years ago where some British engineers built a super low noise powersupply for the Tent Labs XO clock, arguably better than batteries due to much lower output impedance and even noise (along with much more stable voltage.) When you use batteries fresh off the charger they are 3.5V then over the weeks you use them they go down to 3.1ish, my guess is this affects the clock is some manner. Do a search "PFM Flea" and you can read about this remarkable totally not for profit DIY group project.

 So I will power the 48 mult. stock hiface clock with one Flea and the RBCD clock will be replaced with a separate Tent XO + flea. I'll take picture so all can do the work themselves. The design/wiring will be easy, as always the casing will be the challenge. I have to finish building my Trafomatic inspired headphone amp first so it will be some time till I dig into this.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Cool stuff will have to look that up.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool stuff will have to look that up._

 

There is literally a whole industry based on CDP clock upgrades, just google "CD clock upgrade", lot of products same thing we are doing here. The flea just has a good rep and is a DIY open source project so I prefer that route. You do have to make sure the clock/PS you buy is 3.3V not the old style 5V.


----------



## mmerrill99

Regal is correct to a large extent - the advantage of the Hiface is that they have used 2 clocks to address the full speed spectrum from 44.1KHz to 192KHz but that is only the start of the story (but a good start). After all there are lots of products that just address the single speed of 44.1KHz & don't use a PLL to derive the audio clock that don't sound as good as the Hiface. Why? It's all about clock implementation.

 Hiface put the clocks near the end of the digital audio processing chain so that they go through fewer processes than in other implementations & are therefore least effected by the jitter that these processes introduce.

 What I address in my mods is the final piece of the jigsaw which is that low jitter can only be realised by excellent power to the clocks & *clock handling* parts of the device. I've done this with these particular batteries that I've just had a report back about - from a person who wanted to test it against some well known & highly regarded commercial & free shunt & series regulator designs. 

 These were carefully implemented with 1KVA isoalation transformer feeding a highly bypassed & quiet feed to these regulators. The battery beat these regs. So I will be interested in your findings with the PCM flea.

 One thing to be careful of when chasing the elusive lower jitter goal & something that is overlooked a lot - a low jitter clock is ruined by a less than perfect power supply. One of the secrets that the clock mongers don't tell you is that their jitter figures are often derived from power supply & physical implementations that they couldn't possibly recreate in a real operating environment i.e. the quietest power supplies they can get (possibly batteries 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), a clock isolated from all disturbances i.e surrounding equipment, vibrations, electrical, magnetic, etc (possibly using a Faraday cage, RFI protection). 

 I don't know about the "lowest jitter clocks available" tent clocks but I do know that one was tested on DiyHiFi.org - results are interesting (you'll have to find the link yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 So you can see it's not just a simple matter of buying a low-jitter clock (the ones on the Hiface are not bad, BTW), it's how you implement it & handle it.

 Interesting to hear what your results sound like though & then you can move on to optimising the other *clock handling* parts of the Hiface


----------



## sleepy dan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've done this with these particular batteries that I've just had a report back about - from a person who wanted to test it against some well known & highly regarded commercial & free shunt & series regulator designs. 

 These were carefully implemented with 1KVA isoalation transformer feeding a highly bypassed & quiet feed to these regulators. The battery beat these regs. So I will be interested in your findings with the PCM flea._

 

That was me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I compared one of the A123 batteries that Jkeny uses to a number of other highly regarded regs, including a PFM flea, and the battery was easily superior to any of them. Kinda sad really as I've spent years building and designing discrete regs. I'm not sure what actually makes the batteries better, so I need to run some more tests, but I suspect it's either self noise from the regs or earth leakage currents causing problems. Good batteries solve these problems, but obviously charging/maintenance becomes the issue.


----------



## mmerrill99

Thanks Dan,
 I hope you didn't mind me posting your comments (without attribution) & hope I represented them accurately?

 I would love to get a noise analysis of these under load 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - I suspect that their formulation/structure is responsible for their good performance. They use a patented nanophosphates - a developed in MIT - that provides higher current output i.e lower internal impedance (<8mOhm, better than most capacitors) & this I believe results in their lower noise. In other battery technology the chemical reaction gave rise to noise when the batteries were pushing out current i.e internal chemical reactions taking place. These batteries can put out 120 Amps in 7 second bursts or 70Amps continuous (4 of these in series will start a car at -21C - search for youtube video)


----------



## mmerrill99

I meant to say, Dan, that it is sad in one sense but also great in another - now you can get an excellent PS for €10 (battery) - about 1/2 to 1/4 the price of other regs.

 Charging is needed but those in the US have a choice for LiFePO4 chargers for $14 to $25 which are perfect & take away any consideration that you are running on batteries. It's just a matter of finding a reasonable source for these over here.

 BTW, these batteries have a lifetime of 10 years when powering electric vehicles or power tools - make that 15 years for our low current use.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 that provides higher current output i.e lower internal impedance (<8mOhm, better than most capacitors) & this I believe results in their lower noise.)_

 

I got to admit when I am wrong, I thought the output impedance of these batteries was 8ohms when I studied up on them, missed the mili. That is incredible performance for a battery.

 I guess my only "concern" left with these batteries is how the voltage changes from fresh charge to the end of the 8hrs. I know clocks are typically spec'd at say 50ppm, but how they react as the voltage input changes hasn't really been studied in the audiophile world. There is potential that the pitch could change, just a speculation. All in all though these batteries may turn into sort of revolution in the audio digital clock industry. Someone should run to a patent attorney before these show up on the next $20k TEAC.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got to admit when I am wrong, I thought the output impedance of these batteries was 8ohms when I studied up on them, missed the mili. That is incredible performance for a battery._

 

I was wondering why you seemed luke warm even darn cold about these - now I know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I guess my only "concern" left with these batteries is how the voltage changes from fresh charge to the end of the 8hrs. I know clocks are typically spec'd at say 50ppm, but how they react as the voltage input changes hasn't really been studied in the audiophile world. There is potential that the pitch could change, just a speculation. 
 

Even if trues, think about it - are you going to notice a minute change in pitch over a day or two (the time between charges)? The really important figure for clocks is not their long term drift but their short term fluctuations i.e forget about ppm & focus on jitter (phase noise) - this is where the real action is happening when you are considering sound quality 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 All in all though these batteries may turn into sort of revolution in the audio digital clock industry. Someone should run to a patent attorney before these show up on the next $20k TEAC. 
 

Do you really think that this usage can be patented?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Do you really think that this usage can be patented?_

 

If AudioNote can patent a mic transformer in an I/V stage , anything is possible. Just put a snazzy time operated relay to switch batteries every 4 hrs or so. Maybe not but you never know, this is quite a find IMO. People have been pursuing the best audio digital clock PS regulator for years.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If AudioNote can patent a mic transformer in an I/V stage , anything is possible. Just put a snazzy time operated relay to switch batteries every 4 hrs or so. Maybe not but you never know, this is quite a find IMO. People have been pursuing the best audio digital clock PS regulator for years._

 

Over on rockgrotto forum they have already given me the sig from way back "the battery man"


----------



## mmerrill99

BTW, remember that DAN tested the battery on the AVCC supply AFAIK, not on the clock or digital supplies. These are, as we know, probably one of the most sensitive supplies on the Sabre DAC. It might be interesting to hear what he has to say about using the battery in other supply roles - I wonder how it might fare in the role of Tent clock supply?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Over on rockgrotto forum they have already given me the sig form way back "the battery man" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My Hiface hasn't arrived yet but I'm pretty confident the batteries are the way to go now.

 Also you may want to explore a higher grade SPDIF transmitter and better pulse transformers for the Hiface mod, thats probably the bottleneck now, just speculating .


----------



## hughwi

I have just bought one of these off a friend, hooked it up to my PC feeding a Buffalo DAC over BNC, and it is a great improvement over the on board Realtek SPDIF out. Fantastic for the price of a reasonable soundcard, with the added bonus that I can take it anywhere with me, and use it on any computer!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Hiface hasn't arrived yet but I'm pretty confident the batteries are the way to go now._

 

 Make sure you get the right batteries - not just any LiFePO4


----------



## GerardA

Quote:


 Make sure you get the right batteries - not just any LiFePO4 
 

So what brand? And do they make them in other voltages too? Like 12V?


----------



## mmerrill99

A123 & no, only 3.3V but you can connect in 4 in series for 12V. To see how special these batteries are, have a look at this video of 4 of them jump-starting a car at -21C in Montreal, YouTube - A123 Worlds Smallest VS. "Strongest" 12V Jumpstart battery


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And do they make them in other voltages too? Like 12V?_

 

Yes! but don't use 12V batteries for the Hiface because you will kill it.
 Just search LiFePo4 batteries on ebay and you will find a whole bunch. What you need for the hiface are 3.3V batteries.

http://shop.ebay.ca/?_from=R40&_trks...w=LiFePo4+3.3V


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A123 & no, only 3.3V but you can connect in 4 in series for 12V. To see how special these batteries are, have a look at this video of 4 of them jump-starting a car at -21C in Montreal, YouTube - A123 Worlds Smallest VS. "Strongest" 12V Jumpstart battery_

 

That's Quebec City and not Montreal.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's Quebec City and not Montreal. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's more important that I get the brand of batteries correct, don't you think? Your ebay link is incorrect & all these batteries are incorrect!

 Vive le Québec libre!


----------



## regal

I've been using these for flashlights, they are the OEM to all the LiFePO4 R123 batteries that you pay more money for.

 Stop asking jkeny for his trade secrets, he has done a great thing for us. Time for us DIYERS to do our own work and the rest should send their Hiface to jkeny.


NEW R123 with safe chemistry - CPFMarketPlace


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been using these for flashlights, they are the OEM to all the LiFePO4 R123 batteries that you pay more money for.

 Stop asking jkeny for his trade secrets, he has done a great thing for us. Time for us DIYERS to do our own work and the rest should send their Hiface to jkeny.


NEW R123 with safe chemistry - CPFMarketPlace_

 

Sorry Regal, these are not the correct ones either but I agree completely with the rest of your post


----------



## punk_guy182

There they are: New and used LiFePo4 26650, Toys Hobbies, Electronics on eBay.ca


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry Regal, these are not the correct ones either_

 

Of course they're not
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, you know I like you too much to argue about it. With my damn work schedule I'll probably just send mine to you, just wish you weren't across the pond.


----------



## GerardA

No, no secret business here!
 Just want to put my phonopreamp on batteries...
 You know, vinyl?! (2 x 12 V)
 And maybe the pre that's working on a car battery that's inverted to 200V for the tubes. So they need some strong juice.
 And maybe the Gigaworks DAC can use the cleaner 12V then the carbattery.
 I'm thinking of sending my hiFace to John too, but a little bit scared of the mailman...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GerardA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...........
 I'm thinking of sending my hiFace to John too, but a little bit scared of the mailman..._

 

Why scared of mailman? What country are you in? I send mine out by registered post & insured - haven't lost one yet.

 You could always sell yours & buy one form me - some have done this - saves double shipping costs.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


 Just want to put my phonopreamp on batteries... 
 


 Basically if I understand correctly, a power regenerator like the PS Audio Power Plant Premier or the Isotek Sigma acts like a LiFePo4 battery by providing clean power to the amp, DAC or what ever just like the jkeny mod does to the hiface?

 That means we could build some LiFePo4 battery mods for let's say the Audio-GD Reference One DAC and Audio-GD Phoenix headphone amp and get a significant increase in SQ?

 That sounds like a very worthy mod considering that those power regenerators cost at least 1000-2000$.
 What's your take on this jkeny?


----------



## lordsegan

So I just got my BNC Hiface. Plugged into my Little Dot DAC I. I found that it is impossible to use a foobar resampler above 96khz, otherwise I get insane crackles. 96 sounds fine, however.

 This was using the SOX resampler plug in.

 I was just messing around, honestly I don't expect to resample most of my music, but what's the deal?


----------



## delavagus

I have a problem that's arisen because of how I'm using the Hi-face, and I can't find any information about it online, so I was hoping someone here could help me out.

 I use the coax Hi-Face connected to a MacBook Pro running Windows XP (SP3) via Bootcamp. The MBP has a RealTek sound card.

 I was advised to remove the Hi-Face from XP's mixer. So I went into "Sound and Audio Devices Properties," hit the "Hardware Tab," selected the HiFace, clicked "Properties," then "Properties" again, and "Properties" a third and fourth time to get to the "Mixer Devices" properties and the "Audio Devices" properties. Phew! Okay. So under "Mixer Devices" I selected "Do not use Mixer features on this device." Under "Audio Devices," I checked "Do not map through this device" and selected "Do not use audio features on this device."

 The result is that no sound comes out of the HiFace except my kernel-streamed audio -- and the sound seems much cleaner. I'm very pleased with the results.

 The problem is that *for some reason the settings of the HiFace and the settings of the soundcard mirror each other!* I mean that when I remove the HiFace from the XP mixer, the computer automatically removes the soundcard from the XP mixer -- which means that there is "No Audio Device" under "Sounds and Audio Devices Properties." It would be awfully convenient if I could switch, with a push of a button, between my super-clean HiFace audio when I want straight music and the less-clean audio coming out of the spdif output of the soundcard when I want, say, to watch something on Hulu or YouTube. But I can't do that, and I have no idea why.

*Is there any way to disassociate the HiFace's and the soundcard's settings such that I can have the HiFace removed from the XP mixer but still have the soundcard recognized as a system audio device???*

 Thanks in advance! I appreciate any help anyone can give me about this!


----------



## bearbb

I just received my hiface. I am using 785g itx mb (sb710 southbridge). I think hiface got some problem to work with this chipset. It works fine on my intel based netbook.

 Does anyone know willl m2tech solve this problem in the future driver update? If not, I think I need to get a pci-e usb 3.0 card or even to change the mb.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bearbb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If not, I think I need to get a pci-e usb 3.0 card or even to change the mb._

 

Bad idea... no USB 3 controller has been confirmed to work (IIRC, I've read every page of this thread). You need a USB 2.0 card (PCI vs PCIe shouldn't matter) with an NEC chipset on it. I finally gave in and purchased Newegg.com - MASSCOOL 5-Port USB2.0 PCI Card Model MTU25 because I had a $10 voucher expiring this week... $1.64 and works flawlessly, plug and play.


----------



## bearbb

Thanks for your reminder, somestranger26. Then I mgiht get a new mb or buy a pci 2.0 card.

 Since I am using amd 250u cpu, I might change my mb to ZOTAC GeForce 6100-ITX or just change the whole platform to atom d510. But I always think atom is too slow


----------



## bearbb

sorry duplicated post.


----------



## hawkhead

I can confirm that the Hiface works with USB 3.0 (NEC)


----------



## bearbb

really? which brand are you using? some people said it doesn't work (in this thread)


----------



## ROBSCIX

I think it depends on the add-in card. IIRC, The HiFace works on some but not with others..


----------



## bearbb

I tried magic pro mp-n73 which use nec d720200f1 chipset, it doesn't work with hiface.


----------



## Lenni

got the hiface today. first impression a clear improvement over the usb, but I find the sound a little unnatural, and the bass has got leaner. after reading some of the comments I thought I could've saved £3k on a CDP, but ain't gonna happen. it's a keeper, but not a substitute for a good CD transport, not even close. perhaps a better DAC would give different results


----------



## skybluega

anyone can give me a link for online shopping?


----------



## Mambosenior

skybluega, here you go:

M2Tech HiFace USB to SPDIF or BNC Interface


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got the hiface today. first impression a clear improvement over the usb, but I find the sound a little unnatural, and the bass has got leaner. after reading some of the comments I thought I could've saved £3k on a CDP, but ain't gonna happen. it's a keeper, but not a substitute for a good CD transport, not even close. perhaps a better DAC would give different results_

 

The S/Pdif source can only so so much if your DAC is lacking.


----------



## noinimod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The S/Pdif source can only so so much if your DAC is lacking._

 

x2. I think that all this talk about jitter is making people spend more on spdif transports when what they should be doing instead, is getting a better DAC


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got the hiface today. first impression a clear improvement over the usb, but I find the sound a little unnatural, and the bass has got leaner. after reading some of the comments I thought I could've saved £3k on a CDP, but ain't gonna happen. it's a keeper, but not a substitute for a good CD transport, not even close. perhaps a better DAC would give different results_

 

I have a couple of questions. (It was unclear exactly what equipment and source material you used from you sig.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 When you write, "first impression a clear improvement over the usb," what are you comparing it to and what type of improvement did you hear?

 Second, when you say, " I find the sound a little unnatural, and the bass has got leaner", again what are you comparing it to and how was it unnatural?


 Thanks

 USG


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2. I think that all this talk about jitter is making people spend more on spdif transports when what they should be doing instead, is getting a better DAC_

 

I disagree, if the source ain't right even the best DAC in the world ain't going to fix it. Get the source right and even mediocre DACs can sound great but great DACs will sound excellent. See here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/rev...hiface-483900/

  Quote:


 Once again, since the modified Hiface is only a usb to spdif converter, the limiting factor in most situation will probably be the DAC itself. But in comparison to other converters, the modified Hiface gave the most dynamic results regardless of the DAC. So my bet is that is this characteristic will be audible in all DACs.


----------



## kunalraiker

When will you start selling the modded hifaces mate, also what would you charge.


----------



## noinimod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jkeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree, if the source ain't right even the best DAC in the world ain't going to fix it. Get the source right and even mediocre DACs can sound great but great DACs will sound excellent. See here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/rev...hiface-483900/_

 

Mediocre DACs will not sound great even with the best transport in the world, period. Don't blow things out of proportion. Coming from someone with a vested interest in the hiface, i'm not too sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Btw, i had the hiface myself and i tried to justify the cost i paid for it - i had every reason to.

 While there were sonic differences not only in my system, but with my friend's one as well (his 20k+ setup), it wasn't mind-blowing by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mediocre DACs will not sound great even with the best transport in the world, period. Don't blow things out of proportion. Coming from someone with a vested interest in the hiface, i'm not too sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Btw, i had the hiface myself *and i tried to justify the cost i paid for it - i had every reason to.

 While there were sonic differences not only in my system, but with my friend's one as well (his 20k+ setup), it wasn't mind-blowing by any stretch of the imagination. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why did you sell it? 

 What did you compare it to? 

 What are you using now?

 USG


----------



## noinimod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did you sell it? 

 What did you compare it to? 

 What are you using now?

 USG_

 

It was bought on home trial.

 Compared it to the USB of the audio gd dac19 df and benchmark dac1 pre. Friend's setup is focal electra 1027be floorstanders with full plinius amp and preamp; mine is dynaudio bm5A monitors.

 On the dac1 pre, there was _hardly_ any difference between the usb and hiface. On the DAC19, there was, mainly a cleaner sound with leaner bass. Again, not a big difference. 

 Right now.. i'm using onboard sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm ordering another AG dac soon.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was bought on home trial.

 Compared it to the USB of the audio gd dac19 df and benchmark dac1 pre. Friend's setup is focal electra 1027be floorstanders with full plinius amp and preamp; mine is dynaudio bm5A monitors.

*On the dac1 pre, there was hardly any difference between the usb and hiface.* On the DAC19, there was, mainly a cleaner sound with leaner bass. Again, not a big difference. 

 Right now.. i'm using onboard sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm ordering another AG dac soon._

 

So you were comparing the on-board USB of the Benchmark to the HiFace's coax out to the Benchmark?

 Did you plug the HiFace directly into the usb port? How long a coax cable did you use?

 Did you get a leaner bass from the Benchmark too?

 USG


----------



## noinimod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you were comparing the on-board USB of the Benchmark to the HiFace's coax out to the Benchmark?_

 

That's right.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you plug the HiFace directly into the usb port? How long a coax cable did you use?_

 

Yes. Coax cable was 1.5m. It was a van den hul, can't remember which model it was. BNC coax btw
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you get a leaner bass from the Benchmark too?_

 

Nope. Sounded almost the same


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's right.

 Yes. Coax cable was 1.5m. It was a van den hul, can't remember which model it was. BNC coax btw

 Nope. Sounded almost the same_

 

Did you get a chance to compare any of the Benchmark's other inputs with the USB input?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mediocre DACs will not sound great even with the best transport in the world, period. Don't blow things out of proportion. Coming from someone with a vested interest in the hiface, i'm not too sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 I know I'm biased because I sell modified Hiface units but that doesn't change my statement. This is my & others experience, that's why I gave the quote.

  Quote:


 Btw, i had the hiface myself and i tried to justify the cost i paid for it - i had every reason to.

 While there were sonic differences not only in my system, but with my friend's one as well (his 20k+ setup), it wasn't mind-blowing by any stretch of the imagination. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

I agree, the stock unit, while very good, I didn't find it mind blowing either (what is at that price? ) but compared to other USB transports that I heard (Musiland) it was far better.


----------



## Pacha

edited : jkeny, pm sent


----------



## shamu144

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noinimod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the dac1 pre, there was hardly any difference between the usb and hiface._

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I compared as well the USB direct input on the Lavry vs the stock HiFace with coaxial RCA, and the difference was indeed rather subtle _at first listen_. But after some more extended listening, oh boy I realized how I was wrong. The HiFace goes much further, but without sounding different !

 My first experience with the HiFace was relatively small - if any - improvements heard in soundstage, macro-dynamic or transparency... Globally, I wasn't too much impressed (nor disapointed), untill I started to focus on the time response (transcients), smoothness, and micro-dynamic. That is were the HiFace proved to be fundamentally and vastly superior to the direct USB conection. I also have currenlty a Musiland 01 at home, and the verdict is exactly the same, though the Musiland 01 betters the USB input.

 So no, don't expect "obvious in-your-face" changes with the HiFace, but rather the ability to dig very very deep into the recordings and simply allow the music to flow. It can sound like minor improvement, but once you perceive it and get used to it, there is simply no way back.


----------



## Atlplasma

I have a basic question and hope someone can provide an answer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can I use the M2Tech to connect my Mac Mini and Yamaha RX-V2700 receiver?

 Yamaha says the 2700 has 192kHz/24bit internal DAC. I was planning to load Pure Music on the Mini and then experiment with high resolution music. My current DAC won't go beyond 44.1 kHz (without upsampling), so I was wondering if there was a workaround.

 Steve


----------



## K_19

With my DA100 at least, I find appreciatable differences with my RCA Hiface. The biggest things I notice compared to USB (and this is through Gilmore Lite, an amp well known for just letting the source shine through):

 - Soundstage depth/layering. There really isn't much improvement in width at all (I'd argue there's none, actually), but I do find that the sound gets "deeper". 

 - More coherent detailing. With USB, I find that it loses some detail in complex passages. While Hiface is no complete cure for this, I do notice an improvement. 

 - Controlled Highs and bass. I find that with USB, the highs can get shrill and the bass being a bit loose and weak. Hiface addresses both of these weaknesses very well.


 Overall this is definitely not an equipment that is going to bring about ground breaking changes, but something that can bring about that last bit of refinement in your overall rig. Whether that's worth its cost is really for you to decide, but to me it was well spent... can't really go back to the Stello USB mode after having listened to it!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K_19* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With my DA100 at least, I find appreciatable differences with my RCA Hiface. The biggest things I notice compared to USB (and this is through Gilmore Lite, an amp well known for just letting the source shine through):

 - Soundstage depth/layering. There really isn't much improvement in width at all (I'd argue there's none, actually), but I do find that the sound gets "deeper". 

 - More coherent detailing. With USB, I find that it loses some detail in complex passages. While Hiface is no complete cure for this, I do notice an improvement. 

 - Controlled Highs and bass. I find that with USB, the highs can get shrill and the bass being a bit loose and weak. Hiface addresses both of these weaknesses very well.


 Overall this is definitely not an equipment that is going to bring about ground breaking changes, but something that can bring about that last bit of refinement in your overall rig. Whether that's worth its cost is really for you to decide, but to me it was well spent... can't really go back to the Stello USB mode after having listened to it!_

 

Now the Stello DA100 is something I can talk about in some detail with you because I'm using a similar amp (GS-1). First, I found the Stello's native USB implementation to be noticeably inferior to its coax or optical implementations. The USB sound was thin and the bass was light when compared directly to optical out of my dedicated music computer.

 I found this to be the case with my Constantine USB DAC as well, so in order to use the Constantine with a laptop, I bought a Blue Circle Thingee to do the USB conversion.

 Of course, I had to try the Thingee with the Stello to see if I could obtain an equal improvement in the Stello's USB's sound. I found that all things being equal, the USB Thingee to the Stello's optical or coxial inputs sounded exactly the same as optical from my dedicated music computer. This is curious because as far as I know, the Stello uses the same chip as the Thingee does for the conversion.

 A further interesting note was that I took the Stello to a meet last year and had a chance to compare it to SiBurning's Benchmark. We hooked the DACs up to the two imputs on the GS-1 and toggled back and forth between them, with the Thingee feeding either coaxial or optical to the DACs. We switched the leads back and forth so many times that we lost track of what was hooked up to what...... it was then that we realized that we couldn't discriminate between the two DACs. This, of course, was under meet conditions, but an interesting finding anyway.

 I ordered a HiFace and will compare it to the Thingee with this rig: laptop > Thingee/HFace > North Star MKII > GS-1 > 650s. 

 It will be interesting to see if the HiFace takes USB conversion to a higher level than the Thingee or if I end up agreeing with noinimod, that was was little improvement. 

 USG


----------



## Lenni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a couple of questions. (It was unclear exactly what equipment and source material you used from you sig.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When you write, "first impression a clear improvement over the usb," what are you comparing it to and what type of improvement did you hear?

 Second, when you say, " I find the sound a little unnatural, and the bass has got leaner", again what are you comparing it to and how was it unnatural?


 Thanks

 USG_

 

you right I wasn't very specific.. . but I'm gonna find it difficult to answer your questions specifically as I don't possess a large terminology on the subject. like it's already been said the difference is not like night and day, but subtle changes. these changes become more apparent if you listen closely.

 I compared it from: laptop>usb>dac>amp>speakers - to: laptop>HiFace(S/Pdif)>dac>amp>speakers.
 the sound was somewhat clearer, more defined, there seemed to be more energy, but there was some kind of roll off, especially in the bass. in comparison the usb sound was fuller, more relaxed, more extended, even if less defined, even muddier. 

 (I've to say I find the usb direct sound of my laptop when compared to a half decent CDP pretty bad. crap actually).

 I chose the "KS:HIFACE Kernel Streaming" in Foobar output device option for the comparison, but there was also a "DS:HIFACE Kernel Streaming" option (it was already there so why not) so I tried that, and the result was better - much less roll off - the sound was somewhat between the usb and the "KS:HIFACE Kernel Streaming". I'd already decided to return the HiFace, but I've been listening to this option for awhile and I kinda like it. I may keep it after all.

_please note different PCs, DACs, cables etc. may yield different results_


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

There is something I don't understand about this device and I wonder if some kind soul can enlighten me?

 The previous poster, Lenni, said about the HiFace.

  Quote:


 I compared it from: laptop>usb>dac>amp>speakers - to: laptop>HiFace(S/Pdif)>dac>amp>speakers. 
 

but I think he is actually going.

 I compared it from: laptop>usb>dac>amp>speakers - to: laptop>*USB*>HiFace(S/Pdif)>dac>amp>speakers.

 i.e. His audio app. is addressing his signal to USB in the first instance in both cases. 

 In the second example he has replaced a few feet of usb cable with the Hiface & and a few feet of SPDIF cable. It looks like adding an unnecessary step. Unless the DAC has a particularly poor USB implementation. 

 Since you can now buy USB 2.0 capable DACs that operate at a native 24/192 for the same price as the Hiface what is the point? 

 What am I missing?


----------



## Bubu1

On most DACs the USB implementation is limited to 16/44.1. It is not the USB interface that is limiting, but the software drivers and the usb receiver chips on the DAC. For higher rate files you need to use coax or optical. This limits computer based audio to lower resolution files when using USB. Even optical out, which is common on macs, is limited to 24/96 by the on board sound card and even in this case, you have to choose this rate and all files will be played at this resolution. The software then has to upsample the lower res files and some on these forums think that this is a bad idea. This is the reason that there are now several USB to SPDIF converters on the market that can play at least 24/96 files. The HiFace has its own propietary USB drivers that allow you to play 24/192 files (and other rates) natively through USB.
 Hope this helps.
 Tom


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Thank you Tom. 

 I looked it up. As I should have done.

 If anyone else is new to this like me and interested then search for the differences between 'adaptive' and 'asynchronous' USB. 

 Seems like many currently popular hi-fi grade DACs in use an inexpensive previous generation of chip. The latest designs utilise a more capable chip but require specialised software. 

 It still begs the question though. Why stick with an adaptive USB DAC and buy a HiFace when for less money you can buy a new audio interface that supports 24/96 via asynchronous USB?


----------



## transient orca

HiFace is asynchronous.


----------



## yossi126

Got my HiFace yesterday. 
 Just a question to get it clear..
 On XP, ASIO is not compatible?
 I tried the ploytec and it doesn't recognize the hiface.


----------



## Fujak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yossi126* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my HiFace yesterday. 
 Just a question to get it clear..
 On XP, ASIO is not compatible?
 I tried the ploytec and it doesn't recognize the hiface._

 

Hi, as far as I know Hiface works only with Kernel Streaming (if your Playersoftware supports it) or with Direct Sound (both WinXP SP3). I recommend using Foobar with Kernel Streaming Plugin and everything will work fine.

 Kind regards
 Fujak


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bubu1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On most DACs the USB implementation is limited to 16/44.1. It is not the USB interface that is limiting, but the software drivers and the usb receiver chips on the DAC. For higher rate files you need to use coax or optical. This limits computer based audio to lower resolution files when using USB. Even optical out, which is common on macs, is limited to 24/96 by the on board sound card and even in this case, you have to choose this rate and all files will be played at this resolution. The software then has to upsample the lower res files and some on these forums think that this is a bad idea. This is the reason that there are now several USB to SPDIF converters on the market that can play at least 24/96 files. The HiFace has its own propietary USB drivers that allow you to play 24/192 files (and other rates) natively through USB.
 Hope this helps.
 Tom_

 

Really the Hiface is sold as a 24/192 USB transport thats its the real marketing. Luckily they gave it asynchrous and a RBCD clock. If SQ was the selling point the clocks would have gotten better power. You would have to have the battery mod for a big bump in SQ.


----------



## yossi126

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fujak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, as far as I know Hiface works only with Kernel Streaming (if your Playersoftware supports it) or with Direct Sound (both WinXP SP3). I recommend using Foobar with Kernel Streaming Plugin and everything will work fine.

 Kind regards
 Fujak_

 

Actually my winamp KS plugin works just fine.
 But thanks anyway


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yossi126* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my HiFace yesterday. 
 Just a question to get it clear..
 On XP, ASIO is not compatible?
 I tried the ploytec and it doesn't recognize the hiface._

 

ASIO works like a charm on XP, but seting up ASIO is somewhat different: you need asio4all or something similar and your player must suport ASIO output.

 If those prerequisites are met - you just select the ASIO output in your player and then choose your playback preferences through asio4all tray icon. Could be a bit confusing at first, search for _asio4all_ on this forum might help.


----------



## K_19

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now the Stello DA100 is something I can talk about in some detail with you because I'm using a similar amp (GS-1). First, I found the Stello's native USB implementation to be noticeably inferior to its coax or optical implementations. The USB sound was thin and the bass was light when compared directly to optical out of my dedicated music computer.

 I found this to be the case with my Constantine USB DAC as well, so in order to use the Constantine with a laptop, I bought a Blue Circle Thingee to do the USB conversion.

 Of course, I had to try the Thingee with the Stello to see if I could obtain an equal improvement in the Stello's USB's sound. I found that all things being equal, the USB Thingee to the Stello's optical or coxial inputs sounded exactly the same as optical from my dedicated music computer. This is curious because as far as I know, the Stello uses the same chip as the Thingee does for the conversion.

 A further interesting note was that I took the Stello to a meet last year and had a chance to compare it to SiBurning's Benchmark. We hooked the DACs up to the two imputs on the GS-1 and toggled back and forth between them, with the Thingee feeding either coaxial or optical to the DACs. We switched the leads back and forth so many times that we lost track of what was hooked up to what...... it was then that we realized that we couldn't discriminate between the two DACs. This, of course, was under meet conditions, but an interesting finding anyway.

 I ordered a HiFace and will compare it to the Thingee with this rig: laptop > Thingee/HFace > North Star MKII > GS-1 > 650s. 

 It will be interesting to see if the HiFace takes USB conversion to a higher level than the Thingee or if I end up agreeing with noinimod, that was was little improvement. 

 USG_

 

Yup, I've definitely found the USB inplementation of Stello to be inferior to its coax and optical as well. And IIRC, I believe this is something that April Music themselves have admitted to before as well (albeit in an indirect way). The USB of course isn't rubbish or anything and its harsher high frequencies can be beneficial to some headphones (ones that have attenuated highs), but in dimensionality of soundstage, bass, detailing, and probably everything else, the digital options are superior.

 I've also tried the comparisons with the FLAC files -> Hiface -> DA100 (coax) -> HD800 against CD version of those same FLAC files (with PS3 as cd player transport) -> DA100 (optical) -> HD800 and it seems to be that the hiface/coax combo to DA100 has bit more highs and detail than PS3 -> Optical combo and the latter generally sounding more warm.

 And against the only other SPDIF transport that I've tried in my rig, the uDAC, Hiface is definitely superior in more or less all aspects... it kills it, burns it, then prods it with a stick.


----------



## Lenni

after the initial impression I find the HiFace a real welcome improvement over the usb. now I know what jitters are. I didn't think they were that bad. terrible

 the HiFace wins over budget CDP's like the Marantz 6003 hands down, but I doubt it can compete with more expensive CDP's


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ now I know what jitters are. I didn't think they were that bad. terrible
_

 

How do they 'sound'?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do they 'sound'?_

 

Low jitter sounds like really good (read expensive) analogue


----------



## Lenni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do they 'sound'?_

 

I've read how usb produce jitter so I'm assuming this's what it sounds. from the usb there's distortion, degradation (not sure how to call it) in sound. with the HiFace the sound is clearer, better defined. I was listening to Randy Crawford today with the HiFace; when I switched to the usb there was clearly degradation, especially at higher volume, not just in the vocals, but on all around the sound spectrum. on first impression the bass seemed leaner, it's in fact better defined. still could be better.

 I'm using a two-year old low budget laptop, so I'm not sure if it's just the usb jitter. I think anybody using a laptop as a source should consider the HiFace. I'm definitely keeping mine for now. a good needed improvement


----------



## regal

I've always been pretty much a non believer in Jitter,  but this thread convinced me to try the Hiface.
   
  I swear I ordered mine (USA) a month ago,  how long has it been taking for delivery?  mine is still not here,  maybe the BNC version has a long lead time?


----------



## SoFGR

Since I own the  19mk3,  would it  make sense to buy  the  hiface BNC version    and  a  BNC to RCA spdif cable like this one ?  http://www.artisansilvercables.com/digitaldream.htm


----------



## TheShaman

Some of you might be interested in this.
  I know I'll be ordering one!


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





regal said:


> I've always been pretty much a non believer in Jitter,  but this thread convinced me to try the Hiface.


 

 Then I heard hiFace, now I'm a believer
 Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
 I'm in love, I'm a believer!
 I couldn't leave her if I tried.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote: 





theshaman said:


> Some of you might be interested in this.
> I know I'll be ordering one!


 
  Looks interesting indeed. I might go for one to see how it does the job.


----------



## regal

Any word on shipment times for the BNC version from TweekGeek?  been waiting three weeks.


----------



## xnor

.


----------



## FauDrei

Just a short remark...
   
  Recently I've managed to make some time and finally migrated my ThinkPad from XP to 7 x64... Whoa! Foobar2000 + hiFace sound audibly better on 7 x64. Even DS playback (watch out: WASAPI playback has certain problems when seeking within a song; driver 1.03).
   
  This came to me as quite a surprise because I've tried several "audiophile" players on XP (same ThinkPad), with no difference vs. Foobar2000. Could it be that XP USB controller (chipset) drivers were the culprit? Or the 7 x64 OS architecture drastically changed the way of handling multimedia (audio)?
   
  ...anyway - recommended. One more reason to upgrade your OS.


----------



## Zerotohero

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Just a short remark...
> 
> Recently I've managed to make some time and finally migrated my ThinkPad from XP to 7 x64... Whoa! Foobar2000 + hiFace sound audibly better on 7 x64. Even DS playback (watch out: WASAPI playback has certain problems when seeking within a song; driver 1.03).
> 
> ...


 

 Did you use asio or asio4all on your xp setup?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





zerotohero said:


> Did you use asio or asio4all on your xp setup?


 
   
  I did. Preferred KS though, not because of SQ differences - ASIO and KS were pretty much the same. KS was much less fussy about the setup and did not require additional wrappers (asio4all).
   
  So, my main output was KS on XP. There were (slightly) audible differences between KS and DS on XP in favour of KS. KS and ASIO were not audibly different (to me).
  
  At the moment I'm evaluating hiFace differences between DS, WASAPI and KS on 7 x64... and even DS on 7 x64 is better than KS on XP.


----------



## regal

I noticed an improvement with Win7x64 over XP with all my soundcards/usb's.  Even with Xp bitperfect.   There was an article on how the Win7 designers changed the way audio is handled.   Since the XP was verified bitperfect I really think that there were micro-second dropouts occuring that weren't distinctly heard but never the less degraded the SQ.
  
  Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Just a short remark...
> 
> Recently I've managed to make some time and finally migrated my ThinkPad from XP to 7 x64... Whoa! Foobar2000 + hiFace sound audibly better on 7 x64. Even DS playback (watch out: WASAPI playback has certain problems when seeking within a song; driver 1.03).
> 
> ...


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





regal said:


> I noticed an improvement with Win7x64 over XP with all my soundcards/usb's.  Even with Xp bitperfect.   There was an article on how the Win7 designers changed the way audio is handled.   Since the XP was verified bitperfect I really think that there were micro-second dropouts occuring that weren't distinctly heard but never the less degraded the SQ.


 

 Does the SQ bump was that huge for you also? Or minimal?
  I'm sticking with XP at the moment with HiFace and KS, so if the SQ improvement is big I'm tempted.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

I had occasional crackling on Vista, esp. during heavy browsing. After switching to W7, haven't heard a peep since. KS also works better, somehow WASAPI can't resume play when setting playback control to random position in the song, I also feel SQ is a bit better too. But KS seems having issues playing mono mp3.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I am hoping to get a Hiface this week for some testing with some DAC's.


----------



## stocklaz

I also experienced some problem in win7 .  I used the Hiface in MacOSX without any problem (just using itunes).  However yesterday night I started to test HiFace in win7, using Direct Sound way and play file in itunes, the first 10mins is completely OK without any problem. 
   
  However after around 10mins, the noise came up.  In around 15-30 seconds song have a skipping occur, just like playing CD with scar on the disk.  I found a workaround way that I have to ask Win7 to use another sound device and click back to use HiFace then the problem solve for another 10mins..........  I need to reply this step everytime the problem occur.
   
  I will going to try using Foobar to see if problem continue.  I am using Win7 64bit with M2tech most updated driver (1.03? )


----------



## FauDrei

For the moment, KS has least problems on 7 x64 (no random skipping and seeking works).


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> For the moment, KS has least problems on 7 x64 (no random skipping and seeking works).


 

 What problem does wasapi have with hi-tech.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





kunalraiker said:


> What problem does wasapi have with hi-tech.


 

 On my 7 x64 laptop hiFace through WASAPI on foobar2000 has problems with seeking within a song (buffer flush/refill problem?).


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> On my 7 x64 laptop hiFace through WASAPI on foobar2000 has problems with seeking within a song (buffer flush/refill problem?).


 

 thanks for clearing that out, would you recommend hi-face in an audio gd setup,if yes then what are the changes you noticed in the sound  that would vouch the hiface price.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> *I noticed an improvement *with Win7x64 over XP with all my soundcards/usb's.  Even with Xp bitperfect.   There was an article on how the Win7 designers changed the way audio is handled.   Since the XP was verified bitperfect I really think that there were micro-second dropouts occuring that weren't distinctly heard but never the less degraded the SQ.


 
   
  I did too, with 7x32.  Used WASAPI and was surprised that it sounded better than bitperfect XP.  The difference was not dramatic but it was noticeable....  better than XP > foobar > ASIO4ALL > the rest of my system.
   
  USG


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





kunalraiker said:


> thanks for clearing that out, would you recommend hi-face in an audio gd setup,if yes then what are the changes you noticed in the sound  that would vouch the hiface price.


 

 If your music library is computer based - yes, I would recommend hiFace. Not only with A-GD gear, but with majority of nowadays DACs, even the ones with USB input.
   
  Changes? You mean why do I reckon hiFace is better than any other interface I've tried for playback from my computers? This is pretty much already answered in thread you are reading right now, and also in another thread where various USB to SPDIF converters are compared.


----------



## regal

I noticed a big improvement,  but I think my XP was worm/virus infected it would skip a lot even with a quadcore &4GB Ram.  Win 7x64 is a great OS for computer transports.   I wish my laptop had enough memory to upgrade to Win7,   make sure you check the minimum system requirements.   And if you want some info on how to _try_ Win7 shoot me a PM.
  
   
  Quote: 





pacha said:


> Does the SQ bump was that huge for you also? Or minimal?
> I'm sticking with XP at the moment with HiFace and KS, so if the SQ improvement is big I'm tempted.


----------



## Hybrys

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> And if you want some info on how to _try_ Win7 shoot me a PM.


 

 1.  Download one of the old RC ISOs
  2.  Set your BIOS clock to 2009
  3.  Install
  4.  ???
  5.  PROFIT.


----------



## stocklaz

Spent a hour to test HiFace on my Win7 64bit tonight. Using Foobar 2000 with plugin.
   
  Both KS and WASAPI work without any problem. Not sure if it is true but I "feel" KS sound a very little bit better that WASAPI, but that is a feeling only.
   
  However using the DS in foobar resulted the same problem in last night: after 4-5 songs the skipping occur.  It seems that the driver still cannot solve all the problem.


----------



## Pacha

Ok thanks, so the improvement is here. Thank you very much for your proposal. I have a quad at 3.2GHz with 4GB or RAM (only 3GB recognized under XP 32 as it is 32 bits). Indeed I had several professional occasions to try 7 32 and 64 on different computers but never on mine with my audio setup though. I have both genuine version of 7 32 and 64 bits with volume licence keys for each before its public release so I could install it whenever I want to but I wasn't very pleased by 7 even though I find it better than Vista and quite fast running with better ergonomics, but SQ improvement may carry enough weight so that I upgrade.
   
   
  Quote:


regal said:


> I noticed a big improvement,  but I think my XP was worm/virus infected it would skip a lot even with a quadcore &4GB Ram.  Win 7x64 is a great OS for computer transports.   I wish my laptop had enough memory to upgrade to Win7,   make sure you check the minimum system requirements.   And if you want some info on how to _try_ Win7 shoot me a PM.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





stocklaz said:


> However using the DS in foobar resulted the same problem in last night: after 4-5 songs the skipping occur.  It seems that the driver still cannot solve all the problem.


 
  A couple of things to try in foobar2000 in attempt to solve skipping with DS:

 *Preferences -> Playback -> Output*: increase *Buffer Length* to 2000ms (or more if it helps).
 *Preferences -> Advanced -> Playback*: increase *Full file buffering up to (kb)* so that in majority of cases buffers the whole song in RAM (f.e. 32000 Kb).
 *Preferences -> Advanced -> Playback*: increase _*Thread priority (1-7)*_ to f.e. 6.
   
  If any of those can not help, try raising priority of _*foobar2000.exe*_ from _*Normal*_ to _*Above Normal*_ in Task Manager.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





pacha said:


> Does the SQ bump was that huge for you also? Or minimal?
> I'm sticking with XP at the moment with HiFace and KS, so if the SQ improvement is big I'm tempted.


 

 It was minimal, but noticeable. 
   
  While I was setting up my wife's new laptop ( 7x32) I downloaded foobar etc. and plugged in the USB I used for my laptop.  Since it was just a computer swap, with all the same equipment, I didn't expect to hear any differences.  That didn't seem to be the case.  Over a number of days, the WASAPI - Win 7 laptop sounded better than my XP ASIO4ALL laptop.  Now I'm back to my laptop and what I remember was that WASAPI sounded Sharper, clearer..... better.  Placebo?  Maybe.
   
  The rest of the chain went like this:  laptop > Blue Circle Thingee > North Star MKII > GS-1 > 650s/'03 880s.
   
  USG


----------



## Pacha

Thank you for your direct comparison thoughts. I'm still a little reluctant to go with 7 right now, I'll see in the near future anyway.


----------



## Zorlac

I just ordered one of these. I plan to use Foobar and WASAPI for music w/Windows 7 x64, but I do play games too. Has anyone used this transport to play games? What are your thoughts on gaming sound quality? I figure since Creative Labs EAX is dead and even OpenAL is not getting much hype anymore...things should be okay. Seems like most gaming studios are using software based sound engines now.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> I just ordered one of these. I plan to use Foobar and WASAPI for music w/Windows 7 x64, but I do play games too. Has anyone used this transport to play games? What are your thoughts on gaming sound quality? I figure since Creative Labs EAX is dead and even OpenAL is not getting much hype anymore...things should be okay. Seems like most gaming studios are using software based sound engines now.


 

 Where did you order from Zorlac? ''
   
  USG


----------



## Rudivanb

Thank you all so much for recommending the hiFace. Even tracks that I have heard ad nauseam fascinated me, the hiFace brought the SQ with my Havana DAC to a whole new level. Marco from M2Tech gave the advice to use a USB hub that takes its power from an external power supply unit, which even to my not so golden ears  sounds cleaner then plugging the hiFace directly in the usb port of the computer. So connection is now USB port -> short USB cable -> USB hub (ext. powered) -> hiFace -> BNC male/male adapter -> DAC. Luckily I have had no problems with my Win7x64 and Wasapi.

 Have some of you compared above set up to a connection like: USB port -> USB male/male adapter -> ext. powered USB hub -> hiFace -> BNC coax cable -> DAC? Or maybe you have your hiFace ext. powered even without using a hub? In a few days a friend will lend me his Oyaide DB-510 coax cable, so I hope to test this way of connecting as well. Unfortunately I have no high quality USB cable, am I going to compare apples and pears? What do you think will be a better investment: a good USB cable or a good coax cable?


----------



## SoFGR

high quality USB cable ?  hell no,  a good coax cable  will make all the difference  imho
   
  Btw I'm not sure if i understand what marco said about  "   a USB hub that takes its power from an external power supply unit " did he  mean something like  that -> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-2-0-Hub-CARD-READER-UK-Power-Supply-/280471128854?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccess_RL&hash=item414d61cb16#ht_1720wt_991  or something a bit more sophisticated ?
   
  edit : here's another one for the folks  with EU plugs  instead of UK ones http://global.ebay.com/USB_Hub_Digitus_4_Port/380077028312/item   
   
  edit 2 : what do you  guys know about this  power surge ? http://www.audio-soul.gr/vovoxt4.html  I thinking of  buying one for the  digitus hub + 19mk3 + C2C


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> high quality USB cable ?  hell no,  a good coax cable  will make all the difference  imho
> 
> Btw I'm not sure if i understand what marco said about  "   a USB hub that takes its power from an external power supply unit " did he  mean something like  that -> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-2-0-Hub-CARD-READER-UK-Power-Supply-/280471128854?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccess_RL&hash=item414d61cb16#ht_1720wt_991  or something a bit more sophisticated ?


 
  I believe Marco meant exactly that - get your power externally if possible , rather than use the 5V coming from the PC via the USB cable. The better this 5V power is the better will be your sound up to the point at which the Hiface on-board regulators are the determining factor holding back further improvement in the sound i.e these regulators produce their own noise so improving the power supply beyond this noise level will not gain you any sound improvement - the only thing you can then do for further improvements is to replace these regulators with something better. 
   
  Nice find on the externally powered hub - I wonder how good it's PS is?


----------



## shamu144

Another option is plugging your computer into an AC filtering device, like Monster or Belkin are selling if you don't have one already...And If you use a laptop, I recommend trying removing the internal battery as well. It works wonders for me...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Another option is plugging your computer into an AC filtering device, like Monster or Belkin are selling if you don't have one already...And If you use a laptop, I recommend trying removing the internal battery as well. It works wonders for me...


 

 I doubt this is as good as feeding the 5V from external source - remember that the USB 5V is generated inside the PC/laptop with all the switching regulators that are in the PC so even if the PC/laptop gets a clean power feed, it's 5V power over USB will be dirty because of these issues. The external 5V supply avoids all these concerns.


----------



## rosgr63

John I've been using an external USB Hub (see post#409) with good results.
  But using your modified cable with an external 5V supply I am sure will yield better results, not to mention your other mods.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> John I've been using an external USB Hub (see post#409) with good results.
> But using your modified cable with an external 5V supply I am sure will yield better results, not to mention your other mods.


 

 My take on it is that my mods to the Hiface that optimise the internal 3.3V supplies which power the clocks & clock handling circuits account for about a 95% improvement in sound & the external 5V supply 5% improvement.


----------



## Pacha

Can someone please tell me if the HiFace drivers (latest beta or not, whatever) are also for win7 x64, not only x86?
   
  I've read regal and Peete saying they had better SQ with 7 (Vista too then, same sound architecture) than XP and I'm sticking with XP, considering upgrading to 7 but I'd prefer go with x64.


----------



## regal

Finally recieved my BNC Hiface,  TweekGeek were real good to deal with and got the hiface to me just within the 30 day paypal dispute grace period,  they answered emails promptly.
   
  First test was for bit perfectness.   Downloaded the latest Win7x64 driver installed the wasapi(sp) foobar plugin.  
  Changed foobar preferences to Wasapi HiFace output.  Wouldn't work, got a message that can't decode 16/44.1 also notice that I had a windows popup that says the device will perform better on a USB2.0 port.  So I moved it till I didn't get that message.
   
   
  Fired up some HDCD encoded Grateful dead with the newly configured foobar playing into my AudioGD 3SE HDCD DAC.   The indicator light came on for HDCD rips and didn't for nonHDCD rips.   So this device is bitperfect.    For me that is 90% of the battle with computer audio,  a lot easier to setup than what I had been using (PCI EMU 0404.)
   
   
  Doing a torture test now.  Leaving foobar playing in the background thru the hiface while I have a gazillion IE windows open and ripping a DVD.  So far the drivers are stable.   
   
  How long does it need to burn in before I evaluate the SQ?


----------



## rosgr63

200hrs might me a good starting point. slim.a has done extensive tests.http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/449885/usb-to-spdif-converters-shoot-out-emu-0404-usb-vs-musiland-monitor-01-usd-vs-teralink-x-vs-m2tech-hiface


----------



## Rudivanb

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I believe Marco meant exactly that - get your power externally if possible , rather than use the 5V coming from the PC via the USB cable. The better this 5V power is the better will be your sound up to the point at which the Hiface on-board regulators are the determining factor holding back further improvement in the sound i.e these regulators produce their own noise so improving the power supply beyond this noise level will not gain you any sound improvement - the only thing you can then do for further improvements is to replace these regulators with something better.
> 
> Nice find on the externally powered hub - I wonder how good it's PS is?


 
  Good question, the USB hub gets its power from a 230VAC -> to 12V adapter. But how good that is?

 Yes, indeed, that is what Marco meant, get your power externally in stead of from the computer via the USB port. I appreciate the mods Jkeny is doing to the hiFace, I am sure that will give even better results. But I prefer not to modifiy my hiFace, because of resale value. How often I thougt that I will keep a product in my rig for a long time, to see a new star on the horizon in only a few months time  The switching PSU of my computer is not that clean, but with the hiFace externally powered via the USB-hub that makes no problem, as far as I can hear through my headphones, then silence is almost dead silent, better then ever. I am afraid I am very sensitive to noise.
 The USB hub needs to be connected to the PC, either via an USB male/male adapter or via an USB cable. I think I will buy a good USB cable, I am still doubting which one, so I can compare connecting both ways of connecting. I realize that way I compare two variables at once:
 1. The hiFace closer to the computer and with coax cable (Oyaide DB-510?) to dac.
 2. USB cable (Furutech GT-2?) to USB hub and connecting the hiFace directly to the dac
 I will report which might sound better, guess if I don't try I will never know. Do you have some ideas on this experiment?


----------



## regal

I'm using a 3ft BNC-BNC  2964 mogami 75R HD digital cable,  have no idea how this relates to other cables as I have never seen it mentioned here,   I'm a cheapstake when it comes to cables so I don't know how valid my impressions of the Hiface will be.


----------



## regal

Also I noticed that Foobar has a new version v1.03,  has anyone tried the Hiface with the wasapi plugin with the new version of foobar?


----------



## rosgr63

regal are you going to mod your hiface?


----------



## mmerrill99

Here's another variable in the whole mix that I have heard is important but I haven't had the chance to try it yet:
  - Galvanic isolation of the USB 
   
  That is the complete electrical isolation of the PS from the Hiface. With the arrangement above the 5V no longer comes from the PC but the ground still has to remain connected & the D+ & D-  USB wires are still electrically connected between Hiface & PC. These are all potentially channels for transmission of PC noise & for ground loops.
   
  There is a chip from Analogue Devices, ADUM4160 that sits on the USB line & galvanically separates the two sides. The only issue (I believe) is that it cannot handle data rates above 24/96.
   
  I have heard good reports about it but haven't been able to try it yet myself. Already some mention of it here http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/481488/any-experience-with-adum4160-usb-isolator
   
  Given this, I don't believe you need an expensive USB cable.


----------



## regal

One possibility is to get a 480MBS USB 2.0 wireless hub and power it with a quality powersupply. Then you have galvanic isolation from the PC.    I have a feeling the Hiface won't work with the ADUM4160 because the Hiface won't work with a USB 1.0 port even at 16/44.1khz.I think the Asynch driver needs 480mbs.


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





regal said:


> Also I noticed that Foobar has a new version v1.03,  has anyone tried the Hiface with the wasapi plugin with the new version of foobar?


 

 Yes, I have tried it (Win 7 64-bit + foobar 1.03 + latest wasapi for foobar). There is no difference in SQ or functionality when comparing with the previous version of foobar. Everything is ok, except the problem with seeking inside a track in foobar2000 (via wasapi) - it still occurs on my notebook with win 7 64-bit.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> One possibility is to get a 480MBS USB 2.0 wireless hub and power it with a quality powersupply. Then you have galvanic isolation from the PC.    I have a feeling the Hiface won't work with the ADUM4160 because the Hiface won't work with a USB 1.0 port even at 16/44.1khz.I think the Asynch driver needs 480mbs.


 

 Hmm, I don't know anything about wireless hubs but inherently I have an aversion to anything wireless in digital audio transmission - I just don't see it being robust enough for flawless 24/192 transmission but maybe I'm wrong.
   
  I suspected that too & have had an ADUM chip here for a long time but never put it in a circuit as I was put off by experts saying that it wouldn't work with hi-speed USB 2.0 by which I took to mean that the Hiface wouldn't even communicate with the PC. I saw reports from forums that it works on the Musiland devices upto 24/96 so I put together a circuit & tested it but there's something wrong with my circuit or the chip or it won't work on Win 7 as no devices are working with the Adum in line. So I'm no wiser.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Hmm, I don't know anything about wireless hubs but inherently I have an aversion to anything wireless in digital audio transmission - I just don't see it being robust enough for flawless 24/192 transmission but maybe I'm wrong.


 


 Yea asychrous might be an issue wireless.   Sooner or later there will be optico-isolators with 480mbs capability.


----------



## regal

Sonic impressions after 8 hrs burn in,  with material I am extremely familiar with there is a lot more detail,  but there is a bit of a harshness.    Could be that I mowed the grass prior to listening and my ears were ringing.   Definately a lot a potential with this device.    Guess I am going to order batteries and if I hear an improvement will try tent clocks flea powered.   I just want to avoid batteries so that the clocks recieve a set voltage and I don't have to worry about charging etc.  My OCD kicks in and can't relax knowing a battery could go drained.   I noticed the bass is a crystal clear,  which doesn't surprise me since my DIR9001 takes care of most jitter above the bass frequencies.    Thiis is worth the $'s just for the ease of setup vs a soundcard.   I'll do some foobar ABX testing tonight vs the PCI EMU.


----------



## Pacha

Ok so compatible with 7 x64 so far. And apparently less issues when using multiple sources on the PC than with XP.


----------



## upstateguy

My RCA HiFace should be arriving today. I'll be comparing it to the "Thingee"  I've been using.
   
   
  Test Rig:


----------



## upstateguy

It's up and running.....


----------



## xdanny

regal, pacha and upstateguy, congrats on your purchases!
   
  Based on earlier discussions where the hiFace reportedly proved to be a bit more stable with XP than Vista and 7, I've been trying hard to maintain my older xp machine in anticipation of receiving the hiFace.  This machine will be used only as a  music server and only with fb2k, so other sources are irrelevant to me.  But now there have been reports of 7 actually sounding a little cleaner than xp...
   
  regal and upstateguy, are you guys going to test it with both 7 and xp?


----------



## upstateguy

Looks like a double post.............   sorry


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> Sonic impressions after 8 hrs burn in,  with material I am extremely familiar with *there is a lot more detail,  but there is a bit of a harshness*.    Could be that I mowed the grass prior to listening and my ears were ringing.   Definately a lot a potential with this device.    Guess I am going to order batteries and if I hear an improvement will try tent clocks flea powered.   I just want to avoid batteries so that the clocks recieve a set voltage and I don't have to worry about charging etc.  My OCD kicks in and can't relax knowing a battery could go drained.   I noticed the bass is a crystal clear,  which doesn't surprise me since my DIR9001 takes care of most jitter above the bass frequencies.    Thiis is worth the $'s just for the ease of setup vs a soundcard.   I'll do some foobar ABX testing tonight vs the PCI EMU.


 
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> regal, pacha and upstateguy, congrats on your purchases!
> 
> Based on earlier discussions where the hiFace reportedly proved to be a bit more stable with XP than Vista and 7, I've been trying hard to maintain my older xp machine in anticipation of receiving the hiFace.  This machine will be used only as a  music server and only with fb2k, so other sources are irrelevant to me.  But now there have been reports of 7 actually sounding a little cleaner than xp...
> 
> regal and upstateguy, *are you guys going to test it with both 7 and xp*?


 

 Well, day two and although I feel that the HiFace is on to something, I don't feel that it is ready for prime time yet.  The staticy clicking and popping when you change windows or songs is annoying, but it also does this when a stream buffers.... so instead of just getting a drop out, you get a pre and post pop as it cuts in and out.  I also noticed some skipping on my flac files that was never there before.
   
  The other thing that I don't like is that frequency balance is all off.  The vocals and treble are elevated so it sounds the way early CDs used to sound.  Sure, there's extra detail and clarity, but it's out of proportion to the rest of the spectrum.  The bass is there, but the snare drum dominates everything, followed by the vocals and the rest of the music is recessed by comparison.  Classical is less effected by this because there is much less information up there.
   
  I wish there was some way to push the detail and clarity back into the music so it doesn't dominate the track the way it does not.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, this is the EQ applied to my 880s to get the track balanced again relative to how the Thingee presents it.
   




   
  So on day 2, with my XP laptop rig, I feel HiFace is on to something but clearly not ready for prime time. 
   
  My opinion may change, we'll see.
   
  USG


----------



## ROBSCIX

My HiFace came in today.  Hopefully I can get in some testing later today and post my impressions.
   
  Anybody have any suggestions as to drivers or tips to make sure it works as it should?
   
  Thanks for any info.


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Well, day two and although I feel that the HiFace is on to something, I don't feel that it is ready for prime time yet.  The staticy clicking and popping when you change windows or songs is annoying, but it also does this when a stream buffers.... so instead of just getting a drop out, you get a pre and post pop as it cuts in and out.  I also noticed some skipping on my flac files that was never there before.
> 
> The other thing that I don't like is that frequency balance is all off.  The vocals and treble are elevated so it sounds the way early CDs used to sound.  Sure, there's extra detail and clarity, but it's out of proportion to the rest of the spectrum.  The bass is there, but the snare drum dominates everything, followed by the vocals and the rest of the music is recessed by comparison.  Classical is less effected by this because there is much less information up there.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi,
   
  Did you get rid of the clicking problem ? I do have that problem too....Hybrys suggested i should ass a component from Foobar....I'll see, but I wondered if you did something else...
   
  Denys


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





robscix said:


> My HiFace came in today.  Hopefully I can get in some testing later today and post my impressions.
> 
> Anybody have any suggestions as to drivers or tips to make sure it works as it should?
> 
> Thanks for any info.


 

 Hi *ROBSCIX*
   
  It worked with the drivers provided on the little CD.  I Just followed the directions.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Are you using XP or 7?
   
  What's your rig like?  What headphones are you evaluating with?
   
  How are you supporting the weight of the HiFace?
   
  Let us know about the clicking and popping and the unbalanced audio spectrum.
   
  Regards
   
  USG


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hi *ROBSCIX*
> 
> It worked with the drivers provided on the little CD.  I Just followed the directions.
> 
> ...


 


 What I was asking is, are there version that people prefer over the stock drivers on the CD.
  I have heard no clicking or popping and if you are hearing and unbalanced audio spectrum I think that may be more of a DAC issue then the transport.  Sounds fine to me so far....I have only been listening since this morning though.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





denys said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did you get rid of the clicking problem ? I do have that problem too....Hybrys suggested i should ass a component from Foobar....I'll see, but I wondered if you did something else...
> 
> Denys


 
   
  Hi *Denys*
   
  What component the Hybrys suggest you remove?
   
  I don't think it is possible to eliminate the clicking and popping with this generation of the HiFace.  Everyone seems to have it, especially when opening or closing windows, where it's more of a 'pop-hesitation-pop' than just a click or pop.  Perhaps it will be solved with the next generation of hardware and/or software??  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG
   
  I also found that while HiFace works with You Tube it does not work with Netflix. Anyone have a work around for Netflix?


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hi *Denys*
> 
> What component the Hybrys suggest you remove?
> 
> ...


 

 Hi,
   
  Hybris suggested to add WASAPI components .dll from the Foobar website. I'll give it a try tonight. If I still hear those clicks, I will sell the USB key. Although it improves the sound a lot, those clicks are really annoying me.
   
  Denys


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





robscix said:


> What I was asking is, are there version that people prefer over the stock drivers on the CD.  I have heard no clicking or popping and if you are hearing and unbalanced audio spectrum I think that may be more of a DAC issue then the transport.  Sounds fine to me so far....I have only been listening since this morning though.


 

 I have a pretty good DAC so I doubt that is the issue and I'm computer only so there's no other transport.
   
  Let me understand what you've said.  You're saying that on your rig there is no clicking, popping, or hesitation when you open or close a window, for instance?
   
  About the drivers, I checked with the HiFace website and the version on the CD is the most current and I've never noticed anyone, including jkeny post anything about an alternative driver.
   
  What type of rig do you have and how are you using the HiFace?
   
  USG
   
  Edit to ask what you were using before the HiFace>>>


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





denys said:


> Hi,
> 
> Hybris suggested to add WASAPI components .dll from the Foobar website. I'll give it a try tonight. If I still hear those clicks, I will sell the USB key. Although it improves the sound a lot, those clicks are really annoying me.
> 
> Denys


 
   
  IC, yo're running Windows 7. 
   
  When I set up my wife's new laptop with 7, I found WASAPI to sound slightly better than ASIO4ALL did out of my laptop  XP rig.
   
  I didn't realize that the HiFace would run on anything besides "HiFace kernal Streaming"?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I don't imagine that adding WASAPI to the components folder, without choosing it as the output device, will do anything. 
   
  Be sure to keep us updated on your findings.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> IC, yo're running Windows 7.
> 
> When I set up my wife's new laptop with 7, I found WASAPI to sound slightly better than ASIO4ALL did out of my laptop  XP rig.
> 
> ...


 

 I also compared KS and WASAPI. Only difference I found was that WASAPI didn't work very well at all. It started playing tracks but when I tried to skip to a certain point of the track it stopped and crashed. Only booting the foobar helped. KS works without problems so I'm using it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> I also compared KS and WASAPI. Only difference I found was that WASAPI didn't work very well at all. It started playing tracks but when I tried to skip to a certain point of the track it stopped and crashed. Only booting the foobar helped. KS works without problems so I'm using it.


 

 Hiya Patu
   
  What transport did you use before the HiFace?
   
  USG


----------



## seaice

Hi upstageuy,
   
  I hear no clicking/cracking or something else in Win 7 64. The sound is always absolutely clear when playing in foobar through WASAPI. I can work in Windows and no clicking, popping, or hesitation when opening/closing a window etc. Nothing odd, the music always plays without a prob. It must be something in your computer.  - So you have added WASAPI to the foobar components folder and chose WASAPI (hiFACE) as output. Have you tried to increase the buffer length in foobar?
   
  By the way, WASAPI sounds good and it is the only possibility in Win7 64 for me, because KS does not play in my Win 7 at all.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





seaice said:


> Hi upstageuy,
> 
> I hear no clicking/cracking or something else in Win 7 64. The sound is always absolutely clear when playing in foobar through WASAPI. I can work in Windows and no clicking, popping, or hesitation when opening/closing a window etc. Nothing odd, the music always plays without a prob. It must be something in your computer.  - So you have added WASAPI to the foobar components folder and chose WASAPI (hiFACE) as output. Have you tried to increase the buffer length in foobar?
> 
> By the way, WASAPI sounds good and it is the only possibility in Win7 64 for me, because KS does not play in my Win 7 at all.


 

 Thanks for answering.
   
  I have XP on my HiFace test rig., so no WASAPI.
   
  I also found a solution to the clicking/hesitation/popping while opening and closing and working in windows.  I opened the device manager and made sure each of my USB devices was on a separate port.  End of Problem.
   
  So simple I should have thought of it earlier.
   
  USG
   
Edit to say I was only partially right.  I think the real reason all the clicks and pop were gone was due to accidentally leaving the latency set to 1960ms (ASIO setting) instead of the recommended HiFace setting of 100ms.


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hiya Patu
> 
> What transport did you use before the HiFace?
> 
> USG


 
   
  I used ESI Juli@. After switching to HiFace, I sold it very quickly. There really was no contest there.
   
  By the way have you noticed this new competitor for HiFace, Halide Design Bridge:
   
  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Halide-Design-Bridge-Review
  
  Reviewer says it outperforms HiFace. Well it costs four times the price of HiFace so it better outperform it.


----------



## regal

I also have Win7x64 with the Wasapi plugin on Foobar.   It is extremely slow to navigate(seek) thru a file.  I do this when I download some old audience recordings to listen to the quality,   is this an issue anyone else is seeing?


----------



## seaice

Hi regal,
   
  I have the problem with navigating (seeking) inside a track in foobar too (and there are more people as far as I know) - the problem occurs only in wasapi mode; with direct sound it is ok, but I do not like DS mode. On my notebook with win7 64 it is not possible to shift the position inside a track in foobar (with wasapi) at all - there is no sound after shifting the position inside a track even if it looks the foobar is still playing - the time is continuing, the track slider is moving and the visualization is visualizating the music, but there is no sound going out. In this situation I have to manually start another (or the same) track.... But I can live with this because I do not really need this function, great sound quality of hiFace fully rehabilitates this for me.
   
  To add: everything fully updated/last releases: Win 7 64 + Foobar 1.03 (I have tried some older versions too) + latest wasapi for foobar + hiFace drivers 1.03


----------



## FauDrei

Hmmm...
  
  Quote: 





patu said:


> By the way have you noticed this new competitor for HiFace, Halide Design Bridge:
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Halide-Design-Bridge-Review
> 
> Reviewer says it outperforms HiFace. Well it costs four times the price of HiFace so it better outperform it.


 

 Great to see that we have a new contender, though I somewhat doubt that "plug&play" drivers will ever be better than dedicated ones.


----------



## upstateguy

Here's another one, the ART Legato http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Analog-Reseach-Technologies-ART-Legato-First-impressions.  It makes a really good read.  It compares the ART Legato to the HiFace and about 1/3 down the page, someone posted a shoot out between the Hagerman, the HiFace and the Legato.
   
   
  I also found a post by Gordon Rankin of Wavelegnth Audio explaining why the HiFace plays louder:
   
Submitted by Wavelength on Tue, 01/26/2010 - 09:41.  Joined: 12/10/2007 .:. Offline .:. Comments: 421
Gang, Simple... The Legato
Gang,
Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
Thanks
 Gordon
__________________ J. Gordon Rankin
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 Wavelength Audio
http://www.usbdacs.com/
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/
http://www.guitar-engines.com/
   
  USG


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





patu said:


> Well it costs four times the price of HiFace so it better outperform it.


 

 Ahh, only about, ahh, 3 times?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Seeking with WASAPI didn't work for me either, switched back to KS.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> I also have Win7x64 with the Wasapi plugin on Foobar.   It is extremely slow to navigate(seek) thru a file.  I do this when I download some old audience recordings to listen to the quality,   is this an issue anyone else is seeing?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I have a pretty good DAC so I doubt that is the issue and I'm computer only so there's no other transport.
> 
> Let me understand what you've said.  You're saying that on your rig there is no clicking, popping, or hesitation when you open or close a window, for instance?
> 
> ...


 
   
  No, I notice no popping, clicking or lagging windows. 
  The system is a triple boot with XPSP3,Vista,Win7....but I have only did prelim testing using XPSP3.


----------



## padam

Here are some specs for the new M2Tech 'Evo' their development of the hiface.

 Usb/ s/pdif convertor based on the same technology as the 'hiface but with many improvements.

 Aluminium case 105x100x 45mm,

 [size=x-small]input for external supply (7 to 11VDC);[/size]

 [size=x-small]- input for external Master Clock (BNC with transformer);[/size]
 [size=x-small]- 2 x S/PDIF outputs (RCA and 75 Ohms BNC);[/size]
 [size=x-small]- AES/EBU output with XLR connector and settable format (consumer and provessional) by an internal jumper;[/size]
 [size=x-small]- Toslink output;[/size]
 [size=x-small]- ST output;[/size]
 [size=x-small]- direct I2S output with 3.3V interface.[/size]
 [size=x-small]All outputs (except I2S) are transformer-decoupled to avoid ground noise and EMI interference. Three leds indicate power, data stream in input and external clock presence.[/size]
 [size=x-small]Estimated price inc vat is Euros £300 (so is it GBP or EUR...?), delivery hopefully July.[/size]


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





padam said:


> Here are some specs for the new M2Tech 'Evo' their development of the hiface.
> 
> Usb/ s/pdif convertor based on the same technology as the 'hiface but with many improvements.
> 
> ...


 

 It would be interesting to check this out and compare it to the existing unit.  The specs and features look great.


----------



## greenrenewables

x2 on hearing the comparison


----------



## Zorlac

I just got my hiFace and will be able to test it out as soon as my new amp comes in (in a few days).
   
  Regarding the future M2Tech 'EVO', I have a few questions:
   
  1. When you use an external power source, how do you disable the power coming through USB?
   
  2. What are some recommended external clocks?
   
  This is some hardcore audio stuff and my OCD is already telling me to upgrade to the EVO when it comes out (and buy an external clock).... /sigh  hehehe   \m/\m/


----------



## regal

I see no advantage of the EVO to what Jnkey is doing.    An external clock is like a Big Ben (google it).   It would be good if your DAC had a clock out but otherwise I don't see the advantage of the EVO yet.
  Quote: 





zorlac said:


> I just got my hiFace and will be able to test it out as soon as my new amp comes in (in a few days).
> 
> Regarding the future M2Tech 'EVO', I have a few questions:
> 
> ...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> I see no advantage of the EVO to what Jnkey is doing.    An external clock is like a Big Ben (google it).   It would be good if your DAC had a clock out but otherwise I don't see the advantage of the EVO yet.


 
  Yes, Regal, I agree (I would, wouldn't I 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  I haven't heard an EVO yet but I've talked to Marco about it - the EVO is a Hiface with more flexibility. It still has regulators on board which is crucial! My modified Hiface removes the regulators from the stock Hiface & supplies these jitter sensitive areas with the cleanest power supply, I know. You could ask Marco yourself where my modified Hiface stands - I know the answer he will give you!  I can't post user feedback here but I might be able to give you a link to my website where the latest feedback is posted http://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/reviews


----------



## rosgr63

Cheaper than the EVO too.


----------



## upstateguy

Today is day 6 for my HiFace / ’03 880 evaluation and the thing I notice most today is how well I can adapt to the sound of a new device.  The imbalance I wrote about is barely noticeable and the slight bass boost EQ settings I used initially don’t sound “right” any more…. Apparently, I have become acclimated to the sound and clarity of the HiFace.
   
  The fact that the HiFace plays 3dbs louder than my “Thingee”  has been troubling, because as we know, louder always sounds better.  So I think that for the HD650 part of this evaluation, I’m going to use another rig, with two identical Shuttle computers and a Stello DAC, as a test bed.
   
  The computers are 3.4 Northwoods with a gig of RAM running XP/SP3.
   
  A while ago, I used these computers to compare the Neko DAC to the Stello.  Previous to using the dueling computers, I had posted that the Stello had a ‘smile’ EQ relative to the ‘frown’ EQ of the Neko.  Once I had them volume balanced, (each on a separate but identical computer), with their outputs sent to the two inputs on my GS-1, and I toggled back and forth, I was not able to tell them apart and the “smile” and the “frown” EQs turned out to be nothing more than placebo’d effects.  This was a bummer because I had to write a “Chicken Tastes Better Than Crow” post.
   
  So, now, over the weekend, I’m going to fire up the dueling computers, volume balance through foobar, send each signal to the Stello where I can toggle back and forth to see how much better the HiFace is than my old Blue Circle Thingee. 
   
  This, of course, is not meant as any kind of scientific test, but it will offer a pretty good basis for comparison.
   
  USG


----------



## FauDrei

Eppur si muove...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Eppur si muove...


 

 Che vuoi dire?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Che vuoi dire?


 
   
  Niente in particolare. Ho sensazione che ci muoviamo nella stessa direzione (con un pizzico di ironia).

 Sorry for hijacking.


----------



## patate

Does it support ASIO? If so could someone screenshot the control panel please


----------



## audioengr

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Today is day 6 for my HiFace / ’03 880 evaluation and the thing I notice most today is how well I can adapt to the sound of a new device.  The imbalance I wrote about is barely noticeable and the slight bass boost EQ settings I used initially don’t sound “right” any more…. Apparently, I have become acclimated to the sound and clarity of the HiFace.
> 
> The fact that the HiFace plays 3dbs louder than my “Thingee”  has been troubling, because as we know, louder always sounds better.  So I think that for the HD650 part of this evaluation, I’m going to use another rig, with two identical Shuttle computers and a Stello DAC, as a test bed.
> 
> ...


 


 A comparison in your particular system that is useful to you.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> A comparison in your particular system that is useful to you.


 

 That is true to the extent, that every review (and the comparisons and observations made in those reviews), is only useful to the reviewer, in their particular systems.....
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

anyone tried this kind of adapter on the Hiface to plug it directly to their DAC? http://cgi.ebay.com/RCA-Male-RCA-Male-M-M-Converter-Adapter-Coupler-/250584708129
   
  they say that the USB cable doesn't matter in asychronous mode, and I don't wanna pay for snake-oil coax cables..
   
  BTW, are the XP drivers dead stable? do they run KS in exclusive mode?


----------



## K_19

I thought about going that route before with my Hiface before (if the method even works... I'm afraid I do not know for sure) but I was worried that the weight of the adapter+hiface itself would put too much weight/stress to my coax input of my DAC as well as the one on hiface. 
   
  IMO the unit itself is way too long and heavy to directly plug into anything from the way it is designed right now... it really needs some sort of weight support on the bottom for this because it seems to put too much stress to the USB inputs of most laptop/computers.  I'm currently using a USB female -> male extension to alleviate this problem, and it doesn't seem to have any effect on sound.


----------



## leeperry

oh it's heavy? I won't mind making an elevation foot for it then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I think I've seen a pulse transformer in the HiFace, so that will offer the same galvanic isolation as toslink hopefully...Still wondering whether the XP drivers are dead stable and if KS runs in exclusive mode on XP, anyone knows please?
   
  then I might give it a shot, there's a local site selling it for $150 shipped and they have a 1 week return policy anyway.


----------



## Pacha

On my rig KS works with XP with the latest 1.0.3 drivers but they're not very stable... Some said the new beta is more stable but it has been developped for Vista/7 and Mac only. It's been a long time I didn't have any reply from Marco at m2tech about new beta XP drivers. They're working on a new product, Evo, as someone already mentionned here before, so not on HiFace anymore apparently. Yes, the thing is a bit heavy and is a little pain for the USB plug but it can handle it.


----------



## leeperry

oh....yes, I read ppl complaining about stability on XP.
   
  does KS work in exclusive mode? meaning if you open an audio file in foobar then a youtube page afterwards, can you hear both simultaneously?
   
  jkeny and others(Musiland 03 anyone?) are biting their *ss so they need to make a newer/better/bigger interface, and indeed when you buy a computer part it's already obsolete. I'm not paying $150 to buy an outdated coax interface w/ seldom updates that'll be worth $50 in 6 months when the new model's out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I know the musiland drivers are dead stable in KS/ASIO on XP, they forbid resampling, and the 01USD is half price over the Hiface...and in high precision mode, it's supposed to output spot-on sample rates: http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-are-clocks-generated-in-musiland.html
   
  and I could use this sort of adapter on the 01USD(which also has pulse transformers to offer galvanic isolation) to plug it directly to my DAC: http://cgi.ebay.com/5-pcs-BNC-Male-RCA-Male-plug-adapters-/290438701657
   
*PS:* http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/M2Tech-Evo-and-DAC-details-and-photo


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





pacha said:


> On my rig KS works with XP with the latest 1.0.3 drivers but they're not very stable... Some said the new beta is more stable but it has been developped for Vista/7 and Mac only. It's been a long time I didn't have any reply from Marco at m2tech about new beta XP drivers. They're working on a new product, Evo, as someone already mentionned here before, so not on HiFace anymore apparently. Yes, the thing is a bit heavy and is a little pain for the USB plug but it can handle it.


 
   
  I was checking it out with the latest driver using KS on a XP system and everything works fine.


----------



## bhjazz

Quote: 





padam said:


> Here are some specs for the new M2Tech 'Evo' their development of the hiface.
> Usb/ s/pdif convertor based on the same technology as the 'hiface but with many improvements.
> 
> Aluminium case 105x100x 45mm,
> ...


 
  This unit looks like it's trying to compare directly with the Emprical Audio Offramp, which should be pretty difficult to beat. 

  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> I'm not paying $150 to buy an outdated coax interface w/ seldom updates that'll be worth $50 in 6 months when the new model's out


 
  Well, the price of the updated unit is certainly higher.  I don't see it as a direct replacement, just an upgrade.  Do you need the additional I2S or AES/EBU options?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> anyone tried this kind of adapter on the Hiface to plug it directly to their DAC? http://cgi.ebay.com/RCA-Male-RCA-Male-M-M-Converter-Adapter-Coupler-/250584708129
> 
> they say that the USB cable doesn't matter in asychronous mode, and I don't wanna pay for snake-oil coax cables..
> 
> BTW, are the XP drivers dead stable? do they run KS in exclusive mode?


 

 I would like to think that the designers had the option of making the HiFace with a USB plugin and a long Coax, a Coax plugin and a long USB or a two medium cables with the HiFace in the middle,  and they chose the one that sounded the best.  Long Coax and no USB.

  
  Quote: 





k_19 said:


> I thought about going that route before with my Hiface before (if the method even works... I'm afraid I do not know for sure) but I was worried that the weight of the adapter+hiface itself would put too much weight/stress to my coax input of my DAC as well as the one on hiface.
> 
> *IMO the unit itself is way too long and heavy to directly plug into anything from the way it is designed right now*... it really needs some sort of weight support on the bottom for this because it seems to put too much stress to the USB inputs of most laptop/computers.  I'm currently using a USB female -> male extension to alleviate this problem, and it doesn't seem to have any effect on sound.


 

 I'm using a foot like leeperry suggested
   



  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> oh....yes, I read ppl complaining about stability on XP.
> 
> does KS work in exclusive mode? meaning if you open an audio file in foobar then a youtube page afterwards, can you hear both simultaneously?


 
   
  Stable on XP here.
   
  I'm not sure what you call it, but  if I am listening to foobar and open a youtube video I can't hear the video until I turn off foobar and restart the video page.   Same for netflix movies.
   
   
  USG


----------



## ROBSCIX

That issue, is not really an issue, based on what people have posted aroudn here the interface is bitperfect with autosample rate adjustment.  This is great when playing music but if you play multiple files with varying bit rates the interface will stay locked to the first one playing.  This is similar with any audio interface that offers these features.  Atleast that is how I take it from what you wrote.


----------



## regal

Yea my 0404 PCI is the same way except you have to manually adjust the sample rates,  this is a little more convenient.  Too bad the 0404PCI sounds better,  however I'm just running the Hiface stock no batteries yet.
  
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> That issue, is not really an issue, based on what people have posted aroudn here the interface is bitperfect with autosample rate adjustment.  This is great when playing music but if you play multiple files with varying bit rates the interface will stay locked to the first one playing.  This is similar with any audio interface that offers these features.  Atleast that is how I take it from what you wrote.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> Yea my 0404 PCI is the same way except you have to manually adjust the sample rates,  this is a little more convenient.  Too bad the 0404PCI sounds better,  however I'm just running the Hiface stock no batteries yet.


 

 Yes, it is a standard operating mode.  With bitperfect/auto sample rate devices, IMO it is better if you can disable that setting also.  For instance, in case you are playing more then 1 tsream of music at varying bit-rates. Some devices just crash when you try this.


----------



## leeperry

upstateguy said:


> Stable on XP here.


 
   
  ok, sounds good! coz I read some ppl complaining about BSOD's and/or their player losing track and stopping playback altogether. So many companies sell you datasheets and fail in the drivers departement that it's not even funny.
   
  so you can use it in KS for weeks w/o any hiccup?
   



> Too bad the 0404PCI sounds better,  however I'm just running the Hiface stock no batteries yet.


 
   
  huh? how is that even possible after all the technical blabla surrounding the Hiface?


----------



## K_19

Perfectly stable on XP with KS here also.  And I've used it for the past 2 months or so without any problems on my low spec netbook (except for the well known ticking when manually switching tracks on 24 bit or higher mode).


----------



## leeperry

k_19 said:


> (except for the well known ticking when manually switching tracks on 24 bit or higher mode).


 
   
  care to elaborate please? I'm not paying $150 to get clicks and pops on 24bit material


----------



## Pacha

Maybe everything is fine in KS with foobar but with winamp it is far worse for me.


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> care to elaborate please? I'm not paying $150 to get clicks and pops on 24bit material


 

 Basically, in Foobar preferences, if the "output data format" is set to anything higher than 16 bit (regardless of ASIO4ALL or KS), you will often hear a quick, annoying "pop"/"click" static sound when you switch tracks manually (it's mostly evident if you go from one file format to another; e.g: switching from 320kbps mp3 track to a FLAC track).  upstateguy as well as few other posters from the USB/SPDIF converter thread have reported the same thing with their units.  The problem doesn't happen at all in 16 bit setting though.  I didn't have too many 24bit files at all so it hasn't been a huge concern for me personally, but if you have a good amount of them, it's definitely something to worry about.


----------



## leeperry

pacha said:


> Maybe everything is fine in KS with foobar but with winamp it is far worse for me.


 
   
  I plan on using uLilith+ASIO4ALL, and Reclock...both in KS.
   
  What happens to you? BSOD's?
   


k_19 said:


> The problem doesn't happen at all in 16 bit setting though.  I didn't have too many 24bit files at all so it hasn't been a huge concern for me personally, but if you have a good amount of them, it's definitely something to worry about.


 
   
  Ah, so 24bit is unusable...great! OTOH, 24bit over S/PDIF requires VERY low jitter apparently, I think I prefer 16bit tbh: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=34057&forum=51


> *for 16 bit data there can be no more than 100 picoseconds (1 picosecond =1/1,000,000,000,000th of a second) of jitter for full resolution whereas 24 bit Data can have no more than 0.5 picoseconds of jitter to maintain full resolution.*


----------



## K_19

Nonono, I strictly use the* 16 bit setting *as there are no glitches with that setting and I don't really have too many 24 bit files to play anyways.  *24 bit setting* and higher is where I and others would be affected by those annoying tics and pops that I personally cannot stand.


----------



## Patu

I use foobar2000, 150ms latency and 24bit output with HiFace Kernel Streaming output. No problems or glitches whatsoever.


----------



## leeperry

k_19 said:


> I strictly use the* 16 bit setting *as there are no glitches with that setting


 
   
  so you can play audio files w/ different samples rates in a row, and no clicks/pops whatsoever in 16bit? like 44.1 > 48 >96 several times?


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





patu said:


> I use foobar2000, 150ms latency and 24bit output with HiFace Kernel Streaming output. No problems or glitches whatsoever.


 

 Are you on XP, Vista, or 7?   From what I've seen this only seems to effect XP users.

  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> so you can play audio files w/ different samples rates in a row, and no clicks/pops whatsoever in 16bit? like 44.1 > 48 >96 several times?


 

 Yup, in 16 bit setting it is flawless from what I've seen even with different sampling rates.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Nonono, I strictly use the* 16 bit setting *as there are no glitches with that setting and I don't really have too many 24 bit files to play anyways.  *24 bit setting* and higher is where I and others would be affected by those annoying tics and pops that I personally cannot stand.


 
   
  I've been comparing the sound at 16 bits and 32 bits (which is the default setting) and they do not appear to be the same.
   
  Maybe you could verify this for me.


  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> I plan on using uLilith+ASIO4ALL, and Reclock...both in KS.


 

 I'm not sure what you mean leeperry? Are you saying that you want to use ASIO4ALL with the HiFace?
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

yep, coz uLilith doesn't support KS...doesn't A4A work? Reclock does KS natively.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> yep, coz uLilith doesn't support KS...doesn't A4A work? Reclock does KS natively.


 
  The HiFace only works with "HiFace KS"


----------



## ROBSCIX

Tested 24 bit settings with Foobar using XP and hear no clicking etc...


----------



## leeperry

upstateguy said:


> The HiFace only works with "HiFace KS"


 
  did you try to set A4A to use the Hiface? A4A is an ASIO>KS wrapper, why wouldn't it work


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> did you try to set A4A to use the Hiface? A4A is an ASIO>KS wrapper, why wouldn't it work


 

 the only settings that the HiFace device recognizes are the *HIFACE Kernel Streaming* settings.  probably because of the proprietary drivers.


----------



## upstateguy

Would someone please check the sound quality and volume levels of 16 bits and 32 bits?
   
  Foobar 1.03 makes it very easy to do.  just change 16 to 32 and click apply.  You can go back and forth like that while a track is playing.
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

A4A will work w/ any KS drivers AFAIK...proprietary or not. They would have to be seriously broken to not work w/ A4A: http://www.google.com/search?q=asio4all+m2tech+hiface


> *Hiface* on a Windows XP computer but through *ASIO4All*. It works perfectly.


----------



## K_19

I can try more intensive comparison between the two (16 bit vs 32 bit) tomorrow with my HD800, but from my earlier recollection of going back and forth for a bit I don't recall there being any differences in sound between them.  And even if there was, I probably wouldn't want to deal with the ticking glitch that it brings anyways.


----------



## leeperry

foobar should only pad zeros in the bottom bits, so good luck spotting a difference


----------



## Freeze

wait was is the purpose of this? Does all this thing do is pass the digital audio signal? So is this thing the same as using the optical output from the Auzentech X-meridian PCI express sound card.


----------



## regal

Yes all it does is pass a digital signal and in my opinion it doesn't sound as good as a well built PCI soundcard digital out,  however there is great potential when the Hiface is modded.
  
  Quote: 





freeze said:


> wait was is the purpose of this? Does all this thing do is pass the digital audio signal? So is this thing the same as using the optical output from the Auzentech X-meridian PCI express sound card.


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> I plan on using uLilith+ASIO4ALL, and Reclock...both in KS.
> 
> What happens to you? BSOD's?


 


 I had a BSOD on the HiFace driver (I sent a crash dump analysis to Marco) only once, switching to multiple sources (trying to figure if the HiFace works only in exclusive mode or could handle several things playing sound). This has never happened again.
  Under XP with no sounds with Winamp or KMPlayer in KS it usually can play a file and play sound also in Youtube for example, but it can lead to sound crashing in the end and HiFace not responding to anything anymore, even if shutting it down and repowering it in peripherals manager. Only solution is to unplug/replug it or reboot. Don't blame me, I do not intend listening to music when watching a video online, I'm not an idiot, that's just that some web pages open content without asking sometimes or if someone give me a link which I don't know what's inside.
   
  What bothers me is that if the sound gets stuck (because of exlusive mode behaviour (bitperfect)), I can hardly play music anymore in Winamp without a reboot (closing/reopening XP session doesn't fix the problem).
  For example, if I'm listening to some music with Winamp and want to PAUSE for a sec and listen/watch to music or video online, I can do so but when returning to Winamp to PLAY, Winamp refuses to play music, even if restarting it, while KMPlayer usually can play again.
  This must have to deal with Pause not releasing the HiFace while a STOP will do so. If I STOP music before watching/listening to something online, I can play back music in Winamp afterwards but I cannot recover from where I stopped directly. This is annoying.
  Other thing is that regularly playing gets stuck at the end of each track of a playlist, and that is pretty annoying also.
  So for me stable or not, as I'm not planning to use foobar, I'm a bit bored of all that even if I got used to it and try to be careful of what I do with playing. A few things has to be fixed/brought compatible with Winamp in KS mode.


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> The HiFace only works with "HiFace KS"


 

 HiFace works with the ASIO4ALL V2 as well in Windows XP.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> Yes all it does is pass a digital signal and in my opinion it doesn't sound as good as a well built PCI soundcard digital out,  however there is great potential when the Hiface is modded.


 
  Well, I think that would depend on the card.  Some cards have high quality S/Pdif outputs with transformer coupling etc.. and others are garbage.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> I can try more intensive comparison between the two (16 bit vs 32 bit) tomorrow with my HD800, but from my earlier recollection of going back and forth for a bit I don't recall there being any differences in sound between them.  And even if there was, I probably wouldn't want to deal with the ticking glitch that it brings anyways.


 


 There is a noticeable volume difference btw 16 bit and 32 bit but  I don't want to say any more because it might influence your observations.
  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> foobar should only pad zeros in the bottom bits, so good luck spotting a difference


 

 Except for the volume difference between 16 bit and 32 bit.

  
  Quote: 





greenleo said:


> HiFace works with the ASIO4ALL V2 as well in Windows XP.


 

 Are you using foobar?
   
  If so, how did you get it to work?  What settings did you use?
   
  My ASIO4ALL sure doesn't work with the HiFace.
   
  If you're using A4A, does that mean you are no longer using the proprietary HiFace drivers?
   
  USG


----------



## K_19

Well, I've just spent 2 hours going back and forth with the two settings with various music on my HD800 (if any headphone can detect the differences, I am certain this could).  Tried both my WA6 and Gilmore Lite for amps.
   
  Conclusion is that I noticed a VERY SLIGHT difference in volume between the two.  You have to really listen carefully to notice, and even then, it's one of those things where you are unsure and wonder afterwards if it was just placebo.  16 bit seems a tad bit louder than the 32 bit from my findings, again the margins being VERY little, no more than something like 1db at best.  Other than that, I noticed no differences in the actual sound signature at all, it's exactly the same.
   
  Oh, as for the ASIO4ALL, I can get it to work fine with my foobar and hiface as well.  As it's been said it's only a wrapper and there is no reason why it wouldn't work.  I don't use it though since it also gives that aforementioned tick issues when skipping tracks.


----------



## leeperry

k_19 said:


> ASIO4ALL, [..] I don't use it though since it also gives that aforementioned tick issues when skipping tracks.


 
  hah, ok I might just give up


----------



## K_19

Yeah, this ticking issue is a major pain for XP users. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    Apparently M2tech aren't really going to update the XP drivers for it either... if I had more 24bit files then it would have been way too annoying.
   
  Interesting thing is that with ASIO4ALL, I can't even change the output data format.  It's greyed out completely.  So I can't even switch it to 16bit even though I want to.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Well, I've just spent 2 hours going back and forth with the two settings with various music on my HD800 (if any headphone can detect the differences, I am certain this could).  Tried both my WA6 and Gilmore Lite for amps.
> 
> Conclusion is that I noticed a VERY SLIGHT difference in volume between the two.  You have to really listen carefully to notice, and even then, it's one of those things where you are unsure and wonder afterwards if it was just placebo.  16 bit seems a tad bit louder than the 32 bit from my findings, again the margins being VERY little, no more than something like 1db at best.  Other than that, I noticed no differences in the actual sound signature at all, it's exactly the same.
> 
> Oh, as for the ASIO4ALL, I can get it to work fine with my foobar and hiface as well.  As it's been said it's only a wrapper and there is no reason why it wouldn't work.  I don't use it though since it also gives that aforementioned tick issues when skipping tracks.


 

 Bummer. 
   
  When I tried it, the 32 bit was noticeably louder than the 16 bit.  The 32 bit also sounded brighter with a little more impact, but I attributed that to the volume difference.  I evaluated it with my GS-1 and '03 880s.
   
  My A4A still does not work with my HiFace.  I get silence when I choose that setting.

  
  Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Yeah, this ticking issue is a major pain for XP users.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I was under the impression that A4A was 16 bit only.
   
  With the 32 bit setting, I don't hear any ticking when tracks change automatically, just when I manually change them.
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

either foobar or the hiface drivers might be doing a slightly inaccurate 16int>32int conversion, so you may wanna try other players. I really don't think foobar is good at anything anyway, especially not SQ.


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





patu said:


> I used ESI Juli@. After switching to HiFace, I sold it very quickly. There really was no contest there.
> 
> By the way have you noticed this new competitor for HiFace, Halide Design Bridge:
> 
> ...


 
  well that's a stupid price


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





.sup said:


> well that's a stupid price


 

 Agreed.


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> ... I really don't think foobar is good at anything anyway, especially not SQ.


 

 That is a bold statement...  LOL, you MUST have known someone was going to call you on this one...  Seriously now, can you elaborate a little?  With all the testing I've done (within my limited capabilities) I've reached one conclusion about foobar: it is definitely at least as good as anything else out there.  How is it that foobar sounds worse than say WMP??


----------



## Hybrys

Do NOT get him started.  He'll push uLilith/Reclock/XXhighend player on you, where you'll see a placebo induced performance increase, and start spreading more non-sense.


----------



## leeperry

xdanny said:


> can you elaborate a little?


 
   
  well, sure! compare to Reclock in KS/WASAPI exclusive: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/438010/tutorial-wasapi-support-for-kmplayer-having-a-top-notch-video-audio-player


> Comparing to foobar2k with WASAPI plug-in the difference in sound quality is HUGE ! (relatively) You don't need to listen several time to hear a little difference its really strike at you !


 
   
  many little whiners complain that they can't hear a diference....but they have $50 headphones, duh


----------



## xdanny

oops, sorry...


----------



## ROBSCIX

That bridge may be an option but that price puts it out of the range of most people just looking for a S/Pdif source.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> well, sure! compare to Reclock in KS/WASAPI exclusive: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/438010/tutorial-wasapi-support-for-kmplayer-having-a-top-notch-video-audio-player
> 
> many little whiners complain that they can't hear a diference....but they have $50 headphones, duh


 

 I have "slightly" better headphones and from my experience nothing that uses DirectShow filters can sound better than KS or WASAPI. ReClock is a DS filter. If you perceive that DS is better, you most probably like your music "sweetened" through kernel mixer, and if so I can only recommend Izotope Ozone or other mastering plugins from Waves or Native Instruments that can make your music even more "better".
   
  That said, I also use ReClock - but only when watching videos on computer.
   
  For audio you should have a DAC with converter that does it's own reclocking and is preferably fed asynchronously so it controls itself the amount and speed of data sent to it. No plug&play driver can do that. hiFace (and Musiland) driver does.


----------



## leeperry

faudrei said:


> from my experience nothing that uses DirectShow filters can sound better than KS or WASAPI. ReClock is a DS filter. If you perceive that DS is better [..]


 
   
  Quite honestly, I think you're mixing DirectSound and DirectShow...Reclock is a DShow filter that outputs in KS/WASAPI exclusive if you check the right options..your so-called mo'better KMixer is not even being used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  on XP it goes the DirectKS route: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/directks.mspx


----------



## FauDrei

Yes, you are right... recent builds do have option for KS. Never used it in film watching - didn't even know it was there.
   
  Still, I fail to understand what ReClock synchronizes to what if there is only audio (audio to video card clock?!?), and what way is this DirectShow filter better than "plain old" KS?
   
  Want better SW audio? Install 7. All "audiophile players" I've tried on XP were just circumventing OS architecture non-intendend for multimedia streaming (DPCs, IRQs, disk reads, thread priorities...). If your computer was not an "obsolete piece of junk" hogged with pile of useless disk/memory/CPU eating applications and was properly configured and maintained - they all sounded pretty much the same. 7 is another story...
   
  hiFace thread... back to that.


----------



## leeperry

faudrei said:


> I fail to understand what ReClock synchronizes to what


 
  Reclock synchronizes to the PM timer(on XP) or HPET(on Vista/W7), it provides the most accurate timings you can get on a PC...besides it runs its audio thread w/ a small buffer in realtime priority. KS support in Reclock has been there for years...you should try it sometime, it's free 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I've sent an email to Marco asking if he knew about those clicking problems w/ A4A/24 bit KS on XP, and whether some fixes were in the works.....time will tell.


----------



## leeperry

anyone ran this kind of test on the Hiface by any chance? http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/reading-sample-rate/
   
  is getting *spot-on* sample rates a reality or plain fiction? m2tech say at the end of this white paper that we've prolly never heard our music at the right pitch: http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/White%20Paper%20on%20hiFace.pdf
   
  they say that the max. error at 192kHz on the hiface will be 0.5Hz, so it means that for 44.1 it'll be 0.125hz 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  hopefully someone ran this test to attest whether they were serious in that PDF


----------



## xdanny

I was reading through the troubleshooting document on M2Tech's web page and they are saying that the pops and clicks some people report is _"... a bug of the internal
 microcode found on very early production.  Require servicing for microcode update or unit replacement."_ 
   
  Has anyone had their unit replaced by them and if so, are the clicks gone and how was the overall experience?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Reclock synchronizes to the PM timer(on XP) or HPET(on Vista/W7), it provides the most accurate timings you can get on a PC...besides it runs its audio thread w/ a small buffer in realtime priority. KS support in Reclock has been there for years...you should try it sometime, it's free


 

 Most accurate timings of what? Of audio data packets streaming? Nonsense. If there is no video stream that should be synchronized to audio there are nothing to be synchronized. Unless it can improve precision of DAC's receiver/converter it has no effect, and this, if it can at all be done, is device dependent and driver controlled. It certainly can not affect hiFace timers. hiFace drivers can.
   
  BTW, foobar runs it's output thread in priority you define with the buffer size you define... you should try it sometime, it's free.


----------



## leeperry

faudrei said:


> Most accurate timings of what? Of audio data packets streaming? Nonsense.


 
   
  Some links explaining what I'm talking about: 
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CPlay.SoftwareInducedJitter
   
http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=692.0;all
   
  so you believe that cables and transports can add audible jitter, but not computers? It's so nice to be able to discuss w/ computer audio specialists that mix DirectSound and DirectShow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  and no, you cannot set foobar's audio thread in realtime priority AFAIK.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> I was reading through the troubleshooting document on M2Tech's web page and they are saying that the pops and clicks some people report is _"... a bug of the internal
> microcode found on very early production.  Require servicing for microcode update or unit replacement."_
> 
> Has anyone had their unit replaced by them and if so, are the clicks gone and how was the overall experience?


 


 Is this with older version or new ones?


----------



## Pacha

older ones.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It's so nice to be able to discuss w/ computer audio specialists that mix DirectSound and DirectShow


 
  Oh, so it is personal...  OK, if you want continue this , PM me... this is not the place for our debate.
   
  I'll just explain why I think you are misleading people in this thread: with asynchronous USB DACs/USB converters that do their own (re)clocking, the software importance is minimal (except driver!): only prerequisites are that computer HW/SW combination can keep up with DAC's/converter's data requests. Once play command is given - DAC/converter becomes _master_ with converter's driver as _slave_ in such communication, nothing to reclock or synchronize there - DAC/converter runs the show. All possible _software introduced jitter _happens in the driver, thus the importance of well written low latency asynchronous drivers. Any music playing software that would like to "sound better" (or sound different at all) on such device should be able to bypass async drivers and access DAC/converter's HW directly (good luck with that).
   
  Things change if DAC/converter is _normal_, _"no drivers required"_, _plug&play_ device... where "one fits all" driver runs the communication. Much more software influence there.
   
  ...but we are in hiFace thread and hiFace is async converter.
  
  This again does not mean that hiFace is "be all - end all" converter (as JKeny and others demonstrated), but it is a definite step in the right direction.
 and I'll  now.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> I was reading through the troubleshooting document on M2Tech's web page and they are saying that the pops and clicks some people report is _"... a bug of the internal
> microcode found on very early production.  Require servicing for microcode update or unit replacement."_
> 
> Has anyone had their unit replaced by them and if so, are the clicks gone and how was the overall experience?


 

 I don't think this is a hardware problem, it's the driver. On Mac OS X there was this pops/clicks problem, too, latest driver version eliminated it.


----------



## leeperry

yes, the XP drivers look wonky to me. I'll pass, not paying $150 to get clicks and pops.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> I don't think this is a hardware problem, it's the driver. On Mac OS X there was this pops/clicks problem, too, latest driver version eliminated it.


 

 I tested it on XP and the device is fine.  Actually, I have tested it on XP and Vista and both were fine with no popping or clicking..etc...whatever just a good stream of S/Pdif.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I tested it on XP and the device is fine.  Actually, I have tested it on XP and Vista and both were fine with no popping or clicking..etc...whatever just a good stream of S/Pdif.


 
  The situation was similar on the Macintosh side, some people have no problems, a lot have pops/clicks all the time. It may depend on motherboard/USB chipset/whatever. Hopefully will be solved for good just like on OS X.


----------



## chronomitch

Is there still a delay when using the Hiface in Direct Sound mode, or was that fixed with the latest drivers? Although I normally listen to music using WASAPI, I also use my pc for gaming, so it needs to be able to perform well in that department, too.
   
  I was able to find a few posts in this thread talking about such a delay, but I don't know if the problem was ever resolved.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





chronomitch said:


> Is there still a delay when using the Hiface in Direct Sound mode, or was that fixed with the latest drivers? Although I normally listen to music using WASAPI, I also use my pc for gaming, so it needs to be able to perform well in that department, too.
> 
> I was able to find a few posts in this thread talking about such a delay, but I don't know if the problem was ever resolved.


 


 Just tried Direct sound in Vista and there is no delay aside from what you set with the buffer setting.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> The situation was similar on the Macintosh side, some people have no problems, a lot have pops/clicks all the time. It may depend on motherboard/USB chipset/whatever. Hopefully will be solved for good just like on OS X.


 

 Well the devices is working great based on some testing. Some people always seem to have difficulty with USB based devices.  Not sure if it is low level driver for the USB controllers etc...who knows.


----------



## chronomitch

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Just tried Direct sound in Vista and there is no delay aside from what you set with the buffer setting.


 
  Thanks for the info.


----------



## rurika

Just bought a new computer (AMD) can't use hiface, even use PCI-E to usb 2.0 ( NEC D720101GJ chipset  ) still can't use the hiface.
   
  $24 (pci-e to usb 2.0) for nothing ..
  So sad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Waiting new driver for AMD chipset.


----------



## Pacha

You may look somewhere else as M2tech is working on new products and seems to have discarded HiFace drivers development.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





pacha said:


> You may look somewhere else as M2tech is working on new products and seems to have discarded HiFace drivers development.


 


 ..is that a guess or you have info to back up this assumption that they have discadred driver development?
  I find that hard to beleive considering it is their #1 product right now.


----------



## Pacha

It is part of both, as it's been more than 2 months that they don't have released any new driver though they were working on a beta one that a few had chance to receive be email if asked, and especially that they didn't release the XP beta drivers while others OSes have been honoured, which really looks like a complete discard of the development.
   
  Plus we now know that they're working on new products as others have already said here, and I had confirmation of that, so HiFace isn't their current priority and may not be after new products release.
   
  I anyway hope that they'll release a new build as soon as possible, or at least someday in the near future but this seems to be out of the project for the next two months.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Hmm, just because they are working on something new doesn't mean they stop development on their other devices.
  As far as beta drivers, are you having issue with the Hiface?


----------



## Pacha

I didn't stated that, just part of an educated guess. I only said "may" and "seems to" as last two months has been very poor regarding news about the HiFace drivers while previous ones were quite rich with several new versions.
  Which match with the info of the 3 new products to be released in july which surely implies a lot of work from them. So as he's waiting for AMD chipset support which isn't supported in the beta he may wait quite a long time.
   
  I didn't try beta drivers as I'm running XP and there's no beta for XP yet. I emailed Marco several times about that but he told me there was no news on this subject, while support for other OSes has been quite quick when info about new beta was out.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





pacha said:


> I didn't stated that, just part of an educated guess. I only said "may" and "seems to" as last two months has been very poor regarding news about the HiFace drivers while previous ones were quite rich with several new versions.
> Which match with the info of the 3 new products to be released in july which surely implies a lot of work from them. So as he's waiting for AMD chipset support which isn't supported in the beta he may wait quite a long time.
> 
> I didn't try beta drivers as I'm running XP and there's no beta for XP yet. I emailed Marco several times about that but he told me there was no news on this subject, while support for other OSes has been quite quick when info about new beta was out.


 


 Ah I see.  I thought you may have had some inside info but as you said just a guess.
   
  Are you having any issues with your unit?


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Ah I see.  I thought you may have had some inside info but as you said just a guess.
> 
> Are you having any issues with your unit?


 

 Yes, a few :
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/1125#post_6673964


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well never had anything like that happen, I will keep my fingers crossed that it doens't happen.


----------



## mmerrill99

Pacha,
  I think you might be jumping the gun somewhat in your comments about M2tech having to develop/support multiple drivers with the arrival of their new products. These new products, as far as I'm aware, are based on the same chipset & functionality as the Hiface itself - it's just that they have exposed more of it's functionality & added some external components.
   
  So you see rather than weaken the M2tech driver support/development, it actually strengthens their resolve, don't you think?


----------



## Pacha

I only said it was a guess, and that the current "pause" in the development can lead some to wait quite a while (one asked about AMD support and may not want to wait 2 months or so if he's not aware of the situation).
  And I didn't said they dropped totally the HiFace drivers development, I meant this seems to be the case for the moment as there's no news about new drivers since around 2 months and that may keep going for a while as they're working on something else.
  Not blaming them for that, I guess they're not many to work on the projects so it takes time, and it's nice if they keep the same implementation keeping the current base of the HiFace design also. Even better if they improve the drivers, as I said before I'm hoping this too.
   
  I'm not trying to give a shot to their work, I just wanted to inform that the steady floating situation about no new driver releases at the moment and maybe for the next two months may not suit to the one who was asking for AMD chipset support, as he doesn't have clicks and pops but no sound at all with his HiFace.


----------



## rurika

Update.
   
  Now the Hiface work !!!
   
  It's work with my front panel usb.
   
  It work if I plug in 2 of my front panel usb , 1 for usb wireless adapter & 1 for the Hiface
   
  If I plug in only the Hiface alone it's not work.  I don't know why ..
   
  Anyway It's work with my new PC so I don't care.
   
  My PC case is Cooler Master CM 690 II Advance.


----------



## Pacha

Weird. Glad that you found a workaround and that it finally works for you. No more matter of new driver waiting


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





rurika said:


> Update.
> 
> Now the Hiface work !!!
> 
> ...


 
   
  Curious why you're using a USB wireless adapter instead of a wireless card with a new computer, Kemosabe.
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Can you see if your hiface works with the wireless USB adapter??


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





pacha said:


> I only said it was a guess, and that the current "pause" in the development can lead some to wait quite a while (one asked about AMD support and may not want to wait 2 months or so if he's not aware of the situation).
> And I didn't said they dropped totally the HiFace drivers development, I meant this seems to be the case for the moment as there's no news about new drivers since around 2 months and that may keep going for a while as they're working on something else.
> Not blaming them for that, I guess they're not many to work on the projects so it takes time, and it's nice if they keep the same implementation keeping the current base of the HiFace design also. Even better if they improve the drivers, as I said before I'm hoping this too.
> 
> I'm not trying to give a shot to their work, I just wanted to inform that the steady floating situation about no new driver releases at the moment and maybe for the next two months may not suit to the one who was asking for AMD chipset support, as he doesn't have clicks and pops but no sound at all with his HiFace.


 

 No, I know you are not attacking M2tech as I'm not defending them - I'm also just guessing. I just hoped my perspective might put the new products in a different light & hopefully will lead to stronger & better developed drivers!


----------



## rurika

uote: 





upstateguy said:


> Curious why you're using a USB wireless adapter instead of a wireless card with a new computer, Kemosabe.
> 
> USG


 
   
  The usb wireless adapter is my backup component.
  I'm to lazy to put my wireless card pci adapter ( Netgear WN311B ) on my new PC (cause it's on my old pc).
   
  Well I don't know why it can use only my front panel usb. I try to plugin my usb wireless adapter & the Hiface on the back panel usb but the Hiface didn't work. ( all of my back panel usb 2.0 or usb 3.0 even my pci-e to usb 2.0 nec chipset)
   
  My usb wireless adapter is Trendnet TEW-424UB.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





rurika said:


> The usb wireless adapter is my backup component.
> I'm to lazy to put my wireless card pci adapter ( Netgear WN311B ) on my new PC (cause it's on my old pc).
> 
> Well I don't know why it can use only my front panel usb. I try to plugin my usb wireless adapter & the Hiface on the back panel usb but the Hiface didn't work. ( all of my back panel usb 2.0 or usb 3.0 even my pci-e to usb 2.0 nec chipset)
> ...


 

 Are you sure all your USB ports working and have full power?


----------



## rurika

Yes, all of my usb ports are working.


----------



## GerardA

Just an email to Marco can give us some hope!
  Here is the reply:
   
  Gerard,

 you're right to complain and we're really ashamed of the delay in addressing 
 this issue. We are a small company and we had to face several different 
 problems on the road, but I'm sure you're not interested in excuses... We 
 have now a testbench on which we can replicate the problem and we hope to 
 release the new driver soon.

 Thank you for your patience.

 Marco


----------



## ROBSCIX

Atleast they are not pasing the buck and assuming responsibility. 
  Hopefully they will get it worked out for those that have the issue.


----------



## Wavelength

Gang,
   
  Someone just emailed me the link... Since I know a little about clocks and oscillators let me tell you a few things.
   
  First it is correct that any change in the circuitry can change the sound, even with a USB to SPDIF converter. Using batteries of any kind can be a real hit or miss if you cannot test the low frequency noise for the end result. I use a modified Stanford Research SR760 to test all oscillator used for audio. This with correction is good to test noise below 1nVrms at about 100mHz (yes milli hertz). Oscillators and audio really require ultra low noise regulation below 10Hz. This is a very audible range for oscillators. Also above that and too about 1KHz were then the noise becomes less of an issue since it tends to cancel itself out.
   
  I have used both high end regulators and discrete regulators as well as SLA and Lithium Ion. Really without a way to test it you would never know. Though it is possible to test with ear, it can be also very frustrating as some of you have realized. For example... in my highend stuff with discrete supplies I am getting better than 10nVrms with some discrete regulation. Using a batter before that (SLA) I get a little better.... but the sound is also different.
   
  I have now 8 different USB to SPDIF converters that I developed over the last 3 years. Some with LiIon some without... The big problem with some of the Lithium Ion batteries is they have a ton of low frequency noise below 60Hz. This should be taken into account because most regulators will let most of that pass as they are designed to filter between 50-120Hz to be effective for use with standard power supplies.
   
  The big deal maybe in the end, to change out the oscillators all together. Many of the off the shelf parts require tons of regulation to get them even close to the specs they talk about in the data sheets. I spent almost six months with the QA engineer with Crystek to design the discrete units I use. Their supplies for use with their test sets are below 1nVrms at 1Hz. They are simply crazy designs but they have good repeatability and something required for that industry.
   
  Thanks
  Gordon


----------



## Zorlac

I am really enjoying my hiFace using Foobar2000 and WASAPI.
   
  My only problem is that when playing games in Windows 7 x64, the sound starts skipping after about 10 to 15 mins. I have to restart the game to fix the issue until it returns again in another 10 to 15 minutes.
   
  I sent M2Tech an email regarding this.
   
  Anyone else with this issue?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> I am really enjoying my hiFace using Foobar2000 and WASAPI.
> 
> My only problem is that when playing games in Windows 7 x64, the sound starts skipping after about 10 to 15 mins. I have to restart the game to fix the issue until it returns again in another 10 to 15 minutes.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi Zorlac
   
  I have experienced some intermittent skipping while using foobar with internet radio and to a much lesser extent with regular files. Although, random and infrequent, I also found a similar skipping with netflix movies.
   
  Restarting the stream usually fixes it.  In rare instances I have to restart foobar.
   
  USG


----------



## Zorlac

Seems like a "shared" mode issue rather than an "exclusive" mode because I have not had the skipping problem in WASAPI. Only non-WASAPI content like games.
   
  I hope this can be fixed because I really like the hiFace and plan to purchase the EVO when it releases.


----------



## sleepy dan

I get this too.  The clicking is likely a buffer under-run/over-run issue with the Direct Sound driver.  Marco is aware of it and has promised an adjustable buffer in the next driver, so hopefully this will sort the problem.


----------



## Zorlac

Nice! I was thinking about an adjustable buffer too.
   
  Also, I wonder if it would be possible for the hiFace driver to report how many channels, the bit depth and what sample rate it is receiving from the USB connector? This would help in trying to determine if the computer is truly sending a bit perfect signal.
   
  I asked Marco about this, but I am not sure if it is possible.


----------



## SoFGR

Just got mine  hiface  too    using  XP sp3 + foobar 1.0.3 +  kernel streaming  at the moments, nothing to complain  except when using  a buffer of 50ms ( lowest possible ) i got really annoying  pauses  everytime i  was browsing through  steam and chrome,  even minimizing  foobar itself produced an annoying click-pause, i got back to 530ms and it seems  fine, is there any reason to  use  a low buffer  length anyway ?  if yes please enlighten me


----------



## seaice

In foobar, the recommended buffer size is 1000-2000ms, I personally use 1000ms without any prob, no parasit sounds/clicking etc. I would recommmend to use the buffer in size with no audible problems. This is the purpose of it. Btw, do you hear any sound quality improvements when listening with small buffer? (except the clickings  )


----------



## SoFGR

nahh,  but i could not be bothered doing  A/B comparisons  on such  little things, got it  up to 1000ms  just to be safe,  testing  in  windows 7 - foobar - WASAPI   now,  no audible clicks  at all  when  going back and  forth between tracks, btw  i got  everything  set to 44.1khz - 16bit because i mainly listen   audio cds ripped  in FLAC and some mp3s,  in case  i want  to playback  some 96khz  material  should i first change the sampling rate settings in foobar and  windows  control panel  ?   isn't there any way for  foobar / hiface  to change  the playback sampling rate of my system automatically  just by matching it with  the rate of the  audio file being played ?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





wavelength said:


> Some with LiIon some without... The big problem with some of the Lithium Ion batteries is they have a ton of low frequency noise below 60Hz. This should be taken into account because most regulators will let most of that pass as they are designed to filter between 50-120Hz to be effective for use with standard power supplies.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Gordon


 


 Note that Mr. Gordon isn't testing the new LiFePO4 batteries,  he's a few years behind the times when it comes to batteries I think.


----------



## sleepy dan

Yeah the LiFePO4's are superb, better than the regulators I've tried so far.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Note that Mr. Gordon isn't testing the new LiFePO4 batteries,  he's a few years behind the times when it comes to batteries I think.


----------



## leeperry

zorlac said:


> I hope this can be fixed because I really like the hiFace


 
   
  hehe, it seems to me that M2tech is very good at making statements about killing the competition on their website: http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/White%20Paper%20on%20hiFace.pdf
   
  but we have yet to see this kind of measurements to assess their stellar 2.5ppm clocking(explained at the end of that PDF): http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/reading-sample-rate/
   
  and they really seem to lag behind in the drivers department...on windows many ppl report click/pops/incompatibilities with AMD chipsets/BSOD's....$150 is quite steep for a USB coax output using beta drivers. Their excuse is that they're a small company....well, it sure as hell isn't the customer's fault. If it were cheaper, it'd make perfect sense to buy a product w/ a beta software bundle and hope for better days.
   
  The stx asus soundcard seems to have created a trend, and now similar products start showing up....how long to get a low jitter coax output w/ fully working drivers? let's hope the musiland03 will do just that...as their drivers are perfect from what I've seen.


----------



## EphemeralHope

Is a musiland 03 announced? :O


----------



## regal

The hiface is for 3 customer bases:
   
  1.  People who must have 24/192 with accurate timing
  2.  People who will mod it by changing the power supply scheme to give a transport
       that competes with $20k units.
  3.  Laptop users who want above normal SQ
   
  You fit neither of the above.   There are no driver issues with Win7x64.
   
  In stock form it doesn't sound as good as a decent ASIO PCI card IMO, so move on this isn't the device for you.

  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> hehe, it seems to me that M2tech is very good at making statements about killing the competition on their website: http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/White%20Paper%20on%20hiFace.pdf
> 
> but we have yet to see this kind of measurements to assess their stellar 2.5ppm clocking(explained at the end of that PDF): http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/reading-sample-rate/
> 
> ...


----------



## EphemeralHope

So... m2tech is able to become an extremely high end transport just by changing the power supply - but without it... it's not even as good as a soundcard? :O.. I'm thinking about getting this as a transport to another DAC but I really don't want to try to change power supplies unless they come with that option when I buy it...
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> The hiface is for 3 customer bases:
> 
> 1.  People who must have 24/192 with accurate timing
> 2.  People who will mod it by changing the power supply scheme to give a transport
> ...


----------



## leeperry

ephemeralhope said:


> Is a musiland 03 announced?


 
   
  It would only make sense that they start using their new 250K gate fpga: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/443786/musiland-monitor-02-us/600#post_6624136
   
  and yes, the Musiland 03 is being discussed on the official board: http://bbs.musiland.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7124&extra=page%3D5


----------



## leeperry

ephemeralhope said:


> So... m2tech is able to become an extremely high end transport just by changing the power supply - but without it... it's not even as good as a soundcard?


 
   
  bahaha, the self-proclaimed expert surrounding all that forum hype runs a HD650 and yet, he can make pages talking about soundstage depth/width for each new freebie he gets...and the MOT that sells $1K power cables to improve the sound of his reclockers doesn't have the gear to measure jitter. And lot of clueless ppl believe everything they write as if it were God's word. Bottom line is: Don't believe everything you read 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  M2tech make a lot of claims, but don't prove any w/ real world measurements....and the drivers would very much appear to still be at the beta stage. As they say at the very end of that PDF: "trust your ears", they forgot "and whine at us if the drivers don't work as expected"


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> hehe, .....*$150 is quite steep for a USB coax output .......*


 


 That's not very much LP.  My geeky looking Thingee was around $175.


----------



## glingrem

They start using new FPGA yesterday
  They use it in Monitor 01 USD and Monitor 01 PS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> It would only make sense that they start using their new 250K gate fpga: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/443786/musiland-monitor-02-us/600#post_6624136


----------



## leeperry

glingrem said:


> They start using new FPGA yesterday
> They use it in Monitor 01 USD


 
   
http://www.musiland.cn/Attachments/200908/20090807_160615_120.jpg
   
  XC3S50A has 50K system gates: http://www.xilinx.com/publications/prod_mktg/extended-spartan3a-product-table.pdf
   
  their newer cards run a 250K gates FPGA(including the Monitor 01PS): http://www.soomal.com/pic/10100004679.htm


----------



## regal

Quote: 





ephemeralhope said:


> So... m2tech is able to become an extremely high end transport just by changing the power supply - but without it... it's not even as good as a soundcard? :


 
   
   
  Being as good as a PCI soundcard is quite a feat for USB,  the studios are using firewire not USB and for good reason.  The Mtech is for laptop mac and win7 users who want decent SQ in a small package.  If they wanted to compete with firewire or PCI,  it would have had a better power supply and been kept at 96khz max so it could have been galvanically isolated on both ends.  MTech chose feature (192khx wow!) over SQ (galvanic isolation.)  Its all marketing.   And thats what modding is for,  its a good platform to mod the way I see it.
   
  As far as XP drivers being beta,    anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist.


----------



## dishkyun

Hello hiface experts! I currently have a BNC modded Peachtree Nova. Will there be a substantial benefit of adding hiface to the chain?
   
[size=x-small]According to a Peachtree webpage, "The ESS Sabre DAC’s patented jitter reduction circuit re-clocks the digital signal to* almost 0 jitter *before passing it through a high-resolution 24/96 upsampling processor that’s also capable of 122dB s/n ratio."[/size]
   
  Right now I've connected only using USB. I'm happy with the sound. But a product like hiface or devilsound's bridge will let me hear at higher resolutions - is that the only benefit?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> As far as XP drivers being beta,    *anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist.*


 

 Any suggestions for those of us stuck with XP platforms?
   
  USG


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote: 





regal said:


> Being as good as a PCI soundcard is quite a feat for USB,  the studios are using firewire not USB and for good reason.  The Mtech is for laptop mac and win7 users who want decent SQ in a small package.  If they wanted to compete with firewire or PCI,  it would have had a better power supply and been kept at 96khz max so it could have been galvanically isolated on both ends.  MTech chose feature (192khx wow!) over SQ (galvanic isolation.)  Its all marketing.   And thats what modding is for,  its a good platform to mod the way I see it.
> 
> As far as XP drivers being beta,    anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist.


 
  Does Jkeny's mod make the HiFace outperform the galvanic isolation?
   
  Also, why  anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist?  Is it the SQ of foobar using in XP is worse than that of the Win7?  I use XP and would like to learn more about this.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





greenleo said:


> Does Jkeny's mod make the HiFace outperform the galvanic isolation?
> 
> Also, why  anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist?  Is it the SQ of foobar using in XP is worse than that of the Win7?  I use XP and would like to learn more about this.


 
  I can answer the first part of this. The stock Hiface is not galvanically isolated from the PC until it's output stage. It uses a SPDIF transformer on it's output (no connection to ground) which is driven by the differential (no ground connection) line drivers of the DIT4192 chip. So you can see that it isolates the DAC from any noisy PC grounds.
   
  So this focus on galvanic isolation is mute really as it happens at the SPDIF output stage.


----------



## regal

Wrong the clocks aren't galvanically isolated,  thats critical
  
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I can answer the first part of this. The stock Hiface is not galvanically isolated from the PC until it's output stage. It uses a SPDIF transformer on it's output (no connection to ground) which is driven by the differential (no ground connection) line drivers of the DIT4192 chip. So you can see that it isolates the DAC from any noisy PC grounds.
> 
> So this focus on galvanic isolation is mute really as it happens at the SPDIF output stage.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





greenleo said:


> Also, why  anyone listening to music from an XP computer is a masochist?  Is it the SQ of foobar using in XP is worse than that of the Win7?  I use XP and would like to learn more about this.


 

 Perhaps not masochist, but XP OS architecture is not multimedia oriented/optimized as opposed to 7. Not to bother you with details - 7 has audible improvements over XP in equivalent (f.e. KS) foobar2000 setup.
   
  I was reluctant to upgrade my 'ol trusty, "optimized to the bone" XP and mentioned SQ improvement was one of reasons I've done it.


----------



## Patu

I couldn't hear any notable difference when I changed from XP to win7. I used KS output + foobar already on XP. I don't know why there would be any difference using the same output method in win7.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> Wrong the clocks aren't galvanically isolated,  thats critical


 

 OK, maybe it is critical but my modded Hiface clocks do not suffer critically in this regard.
   
  I also would imagine that breaking the ground loop (galvanic isolation) between transport & DAC is worthwhile & counts as a large benefit, no?


----------



## leeperry

patu said:


> I couldn't hear any notable difference when I changed from XP to win7. I used KS output + foobar already on XP.


 

 heheh, the amount of bs this regal guy can put up is astounding...the odd thing is that I think he really believes in what he says 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  OMG XP sounds horrid, OMG the clocks on the HiFace don't get a clean ground signal(and I prolly forgot others as he's on my ignore list, so I only get to read his fantastic posts when ppl quote him) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  if something had to be done...rest assured that jkeny would be modding it, duh.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





patu said:


> I don't know why there would be any difference using the same output method in win7.


 

 Because 7 has several OS related audio improvements over XP?
   
  Quote:


leeperry said:


> heheh, the amount of bs this regal guy can put up is astounding...the odd thing is that I think he really believes in what he says
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 This is quite offensive and not constructive at all.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> OK, maybe it is critical but my modded Hiface clocks do not suffer critically in this regard.
> 
> I also would imagine that breaking the ground loop (galvanic isolation) between transport & DAC is worthwhile & counts as a large benefit, no?


 
   
   
  Yes,  And you would have galvanically isolated the front end if you could have but there is no way to do that with  with current opto-isolator technology. 
  Of course Mr. Lee has done no research on the subject and wouldn't understand that.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> Yes,  And you would have galvanically isolated the front end if you could have but there is no way to do that with  with current opto-isolator technology.
> Of course Mr. Lee has done no research on the subject and wouldn't understand that.


 
  I would have tried it as an experiment but I have an open mind about whether it would have sounded any better. I cleaned up the PS to the clocks & this cleaned up the sound enormously. The clock ground is still connected to the PC/laptop ground so maybe there is still some more to be gained?
   
  The only way to test this is to do a similar cleaning of the clock(s) on another DAC that can use an ADUM & test it with/without USB galvanic isolation. Then one has to ask what noise/distortion/jitter does the ADUM itself introduce, etc?


----------



## sleepy dan

Hi dishkyun,
   
  My ESS Sabre based DAC certainly benefited when using the Hiface.  The Sabre in theory is immune to jitter, but practice seems to be another thing.
   
  Quote: 





dishkyun said:


> Hello hiface experts! I currently have a BNC modded Peachtree Nova. Will there be a substantial benefit of adding hiface to the chain?
> 
> [size=x-small]According to a Peachtree webpage, "The ESS Sabre DAC’s patented jitter reduction circuit re-clocks the digital signal to* almost 0 jitter *before passing it through a high-resolution 24/96 upsampling processor that’s also capable of 122dB s/n ratio."[/size]
> 
> Right now I've connected only using USB. I'm happy with the sound. But a product like hiface or devilsound's bridge will let me hear at higher resolutions - is that the only benefit?


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Because 7 has several OS related audio improvements over XP?


 
   
  XP and Win7 should be compared side by side and I haven't done that. There might be differences but I couldn't hear them after I formatted my HD and installed Win7 on it. Anyway, if there's a difference, it's definitely not substantial.


----------



## FauDrei

Perceived SQ increase can, beside OS, also be driver dependent. It could just be that M2Tech just have better 7 x64 drivers. Although, in my case, Musiland's Monitor and onboard audio also improved in SQ... to lesser extent than hiFace but still improved...
   
  On my ThinkPad it was quite obvious: I had two disks and used new one for 7 installation, this way I had the possibility to go back and forth and test it thoroughly. Win 7 has definite edge over XP (on my laptop).


----------



## SoFGR

Quote:


sofgr said:


> nahh,  but i could not be bothered doing  A/B comparisons  on such  little things, got it  up to 1000ms  just to be safe,  testing  in  windows 7 - foobar - WASAPI   now,  no audible clicks  at all  when  going back and  forth between tracks, btw  i got  everything  set to 44.1khz - 16bit because i mainly listen   audio cds ripped  in FLAC and some mp3s,  in case  i want  to playback  some 96khz  material  should i first change the sampling rate settings in foobar and  windows  control panel  ?   isn't there any way for  foobar / hiface  to change  the playback sampling rate of my system automatically  just by matching it with  the rate of the  audio file being played ?



   
  some more observations  for the ones  who have still not  made up their minds .... 
   
  1)  windows 7 64bit + foobar 1.0.3 +  kernel streaming + 1000ms buffer length   works  perfectly, no crackling  no pauses  nothing 
  2)  gaming wise  i had  some problems  with  tactical ops crossfire ( ut2004 mod ) mostly  frequent and ANNOYING  but  i reinstalled  it because my  nvidia card sucks  in XP anyways  and now the mod works perfectly  when playing it  on windows 7 ( i got  both OSs in dual boot mind you )  i tried the  "sound test" level which simulates footsteps doing  circles around AND above  your head, positioning was up  par with  x-fi game mode + cmss3d  headphone  + 5.1  control panel settings,
   
  I even used  the ingame settings  that i use with  my x-fi without  noticing  any problems,  H/W 3D + EAX   + system driver OFF ( it just uses  the openal libraries located on  the windows   folder instead of the ones located on the  actual game folder )    
  maybe elevation cues were a little bit   off due to the  absence of the cmss3d headphone elevation filter  but  most of the FPSs  i play  don't have  elevation  cues  anyways   ( like  L4D2 versus, where they would be REALLY useful )   
  3) when using foobar   the  master sampling rate options  located on  windows 7  sound control panel  dissapear,  that's propably a  good  thing


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> XP and Win7 should be compared side by side and I haven't done that. There might be differences but I couldn't hear them after I formatted my HD and installed Win7 on it. Anyway, if there's a difference, it's definitely not substantial.


 
   
  When I set up my wife's Win 7 laptop I could easily swap the USB between my older XP laptop and hers.  Win 7 with WASAPI seemed to sound bette than XP with ASIO4ALL,  through the same rig.  Go figure?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






  
  Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Perceived SQ increase can, beside OS, also be driver dependent. It could just be that M2Tech just have better 7 x64 drivers. Although, in my case, Musiland's Monitor and onboard audio also improved in SQ... to lesser extent than hiFace but still improved...
> 
> On my ThinkPad it was quite obvious: I had two disks and used new one for 7 installation, this way I had the possibility to go back and forth and test it thoroughly. *Win 7 has definite edge over XP (on my laptop).*


 
   
  Agreed.  7 has a definite edge over XP.... (at least subjectively anyway).
   
  USG


----------



## Kawai_man

I just got my hiface which I'm using on my macbook pro with osx leopard, I installed the latest driver from mtechs website.
   
  When I go to the audio midi set-up it the only bits option I get is for 32 bits, and for the khz I found that I like 44.1khz the best but there is a big lag like 1-2seconds when Im watching any videos, the lag decreases if I move it up to 192khz but its still noticeable. Is this normal?


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





kawai_man said:


> [...] there is a big lag like 1-2seconds when Im watching any videos, the lag decreases if I move it up to 192khz but its still noticeable. Is this normal?


 
  It's the buffering against the pops and clicks, about 600msec at 44.1kHz. I use VLC for watching videos, audio offset can be set.


----------



## bhjazz

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> heheh, the amount of bs this regal guy can put up is astounding..
> 
> if something had to be done...rest assured that jkeny would be modding it, duh.


 

 So very polite of you.  Why you would obsess over modding a $150 dongle is surprising.  I think it would be fun, but not worth blowing off someone's post.


----------



## padam

M2Tech EVO pic:


----------



## punk_guy182

What's this ST output for?


----------



## Zorlac

Awesome! Is there a pic of the other side too?


----------



## Bubu1

Here's a link.
  http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Portable_Computer_Audio/product/Evo/Evo_USB_to_SPDIF_Interface.htm


----------



## regal

Well I opened up my Hiface today.  May explain why myself and SlimA disagree so much about the SQ.   Hiface is now shipping these with a  22.579MHZ clock instead of the original 22.5792MHZ clock,   this new clock is also much smaller,  barely even fits the pads on the board.  I imagine this is why SlimA likes the Hiface and I don't,  I usually agree with his listening.  I'm sending Hiface an email.
   
  New Hiface  (see the tiny clock they are substituting for the original)


----------



## regal

Compared to the original units 44.1khz clock (photo from Jenky's DIYAUDIO THREAD)


----------



## Kawai_man

Wow keep us updated on what they say regal, I have one of the newer Hifaces I believe, while it is a good improvement Im not stunned or in aww with the improvement like so many people here seem to be, my opinion of it is that there alot more detail to the sound and some more texture and much better highs but there is not really a bigger soundstage and everything sounds thinner which I dont like, listening to my dac without the hiface and just the optical connection from my mac there is more wieght to the sound. 
   
  500th post for me


----------



## regal

Well after I got over the shock of the pissant audio clock substitution   I was able to by-pass the internal 3.3V regulators and feed the clocks directly off a 18650 LiFePO4 battery.  It works,  I can start a new mod thread if folks are interested.  Total investment is under $40 for the upgrade but you do need at least a Hakko soldering station with the sharp tips.   I had posted a link the the 18650 battery holder I bought,  but I can't find the dang thing so for now the battery is soldered on.
  This is by no means meant to compete with Jenky, as I bought the cheapest chinese batteries and charger I could find.
   
  Just 5 minutes listening to a track that I am very familiar with and the sound improvement is absolutely stunning,  I have never ever heard digital like this.  Its a live concert SBD track and I can hear the reverb off the music halls walls,  never heard that before.
   
  I probably will upgrade to tent clocks just because I am pissed that they pulled a bait and switch,  but I think the battery power probably equalizes things.  Only Jenky would know if the old style Hiface sounds better than the new when battery powered.  I think it is safe to say without batteries the new Hiface is a downgrade.  They should have at least told us they went with a cheaper clock.
   
   
  Anyway I had planned on starting a new thread in the DIY section on how to do the mod yourself if there is interest,  if you aren't skilled with SMD I would recommend sending it to Jenky because it is easy to make a fatal (for the hiface) mistake.  You need surgical tweezers and a jewlers magnifying glass.


----------



## Zorlac

What would be a good 7 - 11 VDC power supply for the Evo? I am thinking 9 VDC would be most common. Any suggestions?


----------



## regal

Wait until someone looks under the hood,  there are regulators inside the evo that automatically make it inferior to Jenky's mods (whether audible or not is not known yet).  My guess is a simple Tread powersupply will suffice.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





zorlac said:


> What would be a good 7 - 11 VDC power supply for the Evo? I am thinking 9 VDC would be most common. Any suggestions?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





regal said:


> Well I opened up my Hiface today.  May explain why myself and SlimA disagree so much about the SQ.   Hiface is now shipping these with a  22.579MHZ clock instead of the original 22.5792MHZ clock,   this new clock is also much smaller,  barely even fits the pads on the board.  I imagine this is why SlimA likes the Hiface and I don't,  I usually agree with his listening.  I'm sending Hiface an email.
> 
> New Hiface  (see the tiny clock they are substituting for the original)


 

 I am verry disapointed. I wonder how significant is the sound difference of the two units. I had to sell my hiFace awhile ago and I'm intending to order a new one from Jkeny.


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote: 





regal said:


> Well I opened up my Hiface today.  ...   this new clock is also much smaller,  barely even fits the pads on the board.


 

 Sorry to hear that.  I hope that you can swap it back.  Could it be that the EVO is coming out so that they need to widen the gap between the HiFace and the EVO?


----------



## GreenLeo

It seems that I saw a link like that too and that's in digi key or something similar.  Can't remember exactly though.  Hope this may help.
  Quote: 





regal said:


> ...   I had posted a link the the 18650 battery holder I bought,  but I can't find the dang thing so for now the battery is soldered on.


----------



## sleepy dan

If it's only the 22MHz clock that has changed (and is inferior as you claim), you should hear an obvious difference between e.g. 44.1KHz and 48KHz (and their multiples).  Do you know the make of the new crystal?  Do you know it's jitter specs, compared to the original?
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Well after I got over the shock of the pissant audio clock substitution


----------



## Douwe

I checked the Dutch distibutor. He replied:
  "According to Marco there have been units with a larger size and a smaller size clock. Performance of both to be supposed to be equal (in this case size doesn't seem to matter). I guess I know what he is doing and to be honest I don't even know which ones we had. I only know that clients have been very happy with the performance."
  Regal, is there a significant difference between 44.1 and 48KHz?


----------



## Zorlac

The Tread would be fine if I could find it pre-built. Know where I could find one? 
   
  Also, can anyone explain ST output and the external Master Clock input on the Evo?
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Wait until someone looks under the hood,  there are regulators inside the evo that automatically make it inferior to Jenky's mods (whether audible or not is not known yet).  My guess is a simple Tread powersupply will suffice.


----------



## Kawai_man

I think I may have the newer ones In my case I prefer the sound of 44.1khz over any other of the frequencies, it sounds the most natural and theres a little more weight to the sound compared to the other resolution rates


----------



## mmerrill99

Did you ever stop & think for a moment that perhaps the clock is not a different speed - it's just that they can't print 22.5792 on an SMD device of this size 3.2mm * 2.5mm?
   
  Edit: Regal, you need to stop jumping to unfounded conclusions - did you test the clocks to verify that they are worse? How do you know they are cheaper? Do you even have the specs or know the make of the clocks? It seems like you have condemned them without too much evidence - yes you don't like the sound of the stock Hiface but is this because of the clocks?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Edit: Regal, you need to stop jumping to unfounded conclusions - did you test the clocks to verify that they are worse? How do you know they are cheaper? Do you even have the specs or know the make of the clocks? It seems like you have condemned them without too much evidence - yes you don't like the sound of the stock Hiface but is this because of the clocks?


 

 The burden of proof is on Hiface not their customers!  They pulled a bait and switch.  It is very obvious looking thru the posts that the original batch is loved and the later batch is called harsh by several users.
   
  I posted pictures,  its obvious that the the clock has been changed rendering all the glowing reviews of the stock hiface worthless.
   
   
  Another thing I don't understand is why you aren't listed as a member of the trade?  You obviously have motives here.


----------



## bhjazz

Hmm.  Just ordered one of these last Friday.  Not sure if I'm too excited about that or not right now. 
  Nice work Regal and jkeny!  I'll be


----------



## slackman

I have no idea which one I have but it sounds great and I ordered a while back.
  I have the cinch version btw which is black plastic connector with gold cinch, I'm assuming the picture is of a BNC connector (white plastic grey metal BNC connector?)
   
  I do think difference in sound quality could easily come from the difference in USB power quality.
  I'm on an IBM laptop and I've seen reports and charts of laptop USB power quality here compared to desktop computers and the difference was huge. (laptop performing better than external power suplies even).
   
  As for difference between 44.1 and 48khz, some DACs will sound fairly different at 44.1 than at 48khz. I know this from experience, this doesn't have to say anything about the hiface quality.
   
  So unless somebody here has both versions of the hiface and is doing clear measurements out of thesame computer, all of the above about quality beeing less is speculation it seems to me.


----------



## regal

I agree this is a definate possibility,  when I went to LiFePO4 battery power,  the SQ was stunningly good.  Just don't like a manufacturer changing a critical component after the reviews are in with no notification,  it is shady business practice.
  
  Quote: 





slackman said:


> I do think difference in sound quality could easily come from the difference in USB power quality.


----------



## sleepy dan

Hiface have no burden of proof - YOU do.  You are claiming M2Tech have started fitting inferior components based only on the fact that one is smaller.  Do you really think a component being smaller makes it worse?  Do you have even the slightest evidence that the new clock is of lower performance?  Have you test it 44.1KHz Vs 48KHz?  Come to think of it, don't you think if M2Tech were penny pinching, they'd replace BOTH clocks with cheaper parts?
   
  Manufacturers change components all the time due mainly to availability.  Components become obsolete and need to be replaced by an equivalent.  Nothing shady about it at all.  You really should check your facts before making wild claims.
  Quote: 





regal said:


> The burden of proof is on Hiface not their customers!  They pulled a bait and switch.  It is very obvious looking thru the posts that the original batch is loved and the later batch is called harsh by several users.
> 
> I posted pictures,  its obvious that the the clock has been changed rendering all the glowing reviews of the stock hiface worthless.
> 
> ...


----------



## leeperry

regal said:


> after I got over the shock of the pissant audio clock substitution


 
   
  hehe, the nonsense continues...conspiracy theory, my favorite 


   
  there's missing numbers because there wasn't enough room to fit them, duh! that's a 14.31818Mhz PLL: 

   
  and the bag it came in: 


   
  PLL's and oscillators can come in many different packages, size is irrelevant towards their rated specs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




    


bhjazz said:


> So very polite of you. Why you would obsess over modding a $150 dongle is surprising. I think it would be fun, but not worth blowing off someone's post.


   
  Clueless self-proclaimed experts need a reality check from time to time...otherwise they end up taking themselves too seriously


----------



## regal

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Come to think of it, don't you think if M2Tech were penny pinching, they'd replace BOTH clocks with cheaper parts?
> 
> Manufacturers change components all the time due mainly to availability.  Components become obsolete and need to be replaced by an equivalent.  Nothing shady about it at all.  You really should check your facts before making wild claims.


 


 Actually if you look at the pictures the 44.1khz mult audio clock is the expensive hard to get model,  48khz multiples are easy to come by.   And yes manufactures substitute components all the time,  but good manufactures don't substitute the critical components.   How would you like it if you bought a AudioGD rference 1 and they subbed a PCM1702?   Here we have clock A which goes out to all the reviewers,  gets glowing reviews.   Then they change the heart of the whole device without even a rev change,  this is shady, shady, shady,  did I say shady?   You seem to deny the very probably possibility that this little pissant clock is the reason so many have been unhappy with the sound of their hiface,  this is the WWW and is the only way we consumers can keep rougue manufacturers in check. 
   
  M2tech neeeds to apologize and supply SlimA with the new unit for sonic evaluation,  if he deems it as good I'll shut up.
   
  I'm just looking out for the poor guy who reads Slim's reviews and buys this and get this completely different product.
   
  I'll be replacing both clocks with TentLabs XO's even though the sound of this Hiface with the LiFePO4 battery is absolutely great.
   
  LeePerry as usual has no idea what he is talking about, a clock quality/performance is not determined by the number stamped on it.


----------



## sleepy dan

The clock responsible for 44.1KHz sample rates has been replaced by a new model.  You are claiming this is responsible for a large drop in sound quality.  If this was the case, it would sound much worse than 48KHz.  This is an easy and obvious test of your theory,yes?
   
  Good manufacturers don't substitute critical compnents?  Seriously?  Of course they do.
   
  "So many have been unhappy with the sound of their Hiface" is a big exaggeration, but yes your theory is a possibility, although unlikely.  However, the sensible thing to do would be to test your theory by doing some research - email M2Tech, look up the specs of the new oscillator - rather than making claims online that you have no evidence for.  For all we know the new clock might be better than the old one.
   
  You mention that your Hiface has gone from poor to outstanding with a battery supply.  Well the clock can't be that bad then can it?  And doesn't this suggest that your USB supply might be particularly noisy?  I built my first clock 15 years ago, before Guido Tent started selling them, and I've built a few since.  PSU noise is a much larger factor in jitter performance than the intrinsic quality of the oscillator. 
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Actually if you look at the pictures the 44.1khz mult audio clock is the expensive hard to get model,  48khz multiples are easy to come by.   And yes manufactures substitute components all the time,  but good manufactures don't substitute the critical components.   How would you like it if you bought a AudioGD rference 1 and they subbed a PCM1702?   Here we have clock A which goes out to all the reviewers,  gets glowing reviews.   Then they change the heart of the whole device without even a rev change,  this is shady, shady, shady,  did I say shady?   You seem to deny the very probably possibility that this little pissant clock is the reason so many have been unhappy with the sound of their hiface,  this is the WWW and is the only way we consumers can keep rougue manufacturers in check.
> 
> M2tech neeeds to apologize and supply SlimA with the new unit for sonic evaluation,  if he deems it as good I'll shut up.
> 
> ...


----------



## regal

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> The clock responsible for 44.1KHz sample rates has been replaced by a new model.  You are claiming this is responsible for a large drop in sound quality.  If this was the case, it would sound much worse than 48KHz.  This is an easy and obvious test of your theory,yes?
> 
> Good manufacturers don't substitute critical compnents?  Seriously?  Of course they do.
> 
> ...


 

 This is a sensible post but I still say that with a USB transport the clock is going to make a big impact on the sound and the substitution should not be taken lightly.
  You aren't going to determine the sonics of a clock by a datasheet,  you know better than that.   And that is all M2tech went with when they made the substitution.
   
  Better than the other posts that regurgitates M2Techs email about the issue.
   
  Is the new clock SD modulated, is it SAW is it quartz?  What does the phase noise vs freq look like?   Not my job to do M2Techs engineering.
   
   
   
  I'll offer to buy anyone a brand new Hiface in trade for one with the old clock.   You can check my feedback,  any taker on this offer must have good feedback.
   
  I have a good notion there will be no takers.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Is this theory or you have actually compared the old and new units?


----------



## regal

Look at the pictures posted the clock is different, no theory there.  How it affects SQ no one knows,  but I didn't like the sound of my Hiface with the new style clock vs my TerraLinX1 or PCI EMU0404.
   
  With the LiFePo4 battery mod it is the best transport I've ever heard.   
   .


----------



## sleepy dan

Regal, you said "Not my job to do M2Techs engineering."  Well actually it is your job to back up your claim that M2Tech have fitted a sub-standard part with some semblance of evidence.  Currently the only evidence that you have suggests that your USB power source was noisy.  
   
  interesting, I have an EMU 0404 PCI too.  The Hiface sounded a little better when fed from a motherboard based USB port, and much better when fed from a PCI based USB port with a  cleaned up PSU.  It's not perfect of course, and I don't doubt powering it with batteries will improve it further.  Even good regulators (let alone the switchers found on the Hiface) chuck out a lot of low frequency noise due to the reference.  I'm using an A123 battery (from Jkeny) for the analog supply of my Sabre DAC.  It's fantastic, easily better than any of the other discrete regs I've tried.
   
  I'll be curious to see if you get an improvement with a Tent clock.  How long do you find your battery lasts with you current clock?


----------



## qusp

even if they did , since when does a manufacturer have to inform its customers of a small component substitution? you have no idea why/if they started to use the new component, availability may be poor and causing them to be unable to meet their orders, it may not be available anymore, there may have even been some sort of performance issue with the part. calling it bait and switch implies that they used this clock and then when good reviews came in decided they would save a few dollars by changing a single part? the new part may actually be more expensive.
   
  using such language with nothing to base it on is bad practice IMO


----------



## mmerrill99

Regal,
  Until you personally compare the Hiface with MEC clocks Vs the Hiface with ? clocks, I don't think you can make any statements about the difference in sound (if any) between the clocks. Otherwise it's pure speculation & opinion.


----------



## punk_guy182

Hey, jkeny!
   
  How is your work on the hiFace S/PDIF adapter to reduce sound degradation due to signal reflection evolving?
  Also, what is this device that you have on your picture profile?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> Hey, jkeny!
> 
> How is your work on the hiFace S/PDIF adapter to reduce sound degradation due to signal reflection evolving?
> Also, what is this device that you have on your picture profile?


 

 Very good, thanks - it works & it works well, not just in theory but in practise . I now have to do some research to determine best match. More than that I'm not willing to say but be prepared for another sonic improvement. I'll be announcing details soon.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> Look at the pictures posted the clock is different, no theory there.  How it affects SQ no one knows,  but I didn't like the sound of my Hiface with the new style clock vs my TerraLinX1 or PCI EMU0404.
> 
> With the LiFePo4 battery mod it is the best transport I've ever heard.
> .


 

 Well considering you have no idea either way, it is all guess work and theory.  You really don't know, perhaps they used the new clock because it is a better unit.
  Unless you have tested both "new" and "old" versions then you are just guessing...


----------



## regal

The battery I am using is only 1500 or so mAH,  I've only listened about 4 hrs ,   the voltage is still 3.2V's.  When I unplug the Hiface from USB but still leave the battery hooked up to the clock I am not seeing the voltage drop.
   
  The mod to battery power took me about 1 hr,  it is well worth the effort.  I have honestly never heard digital sound this good.
   
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> .  How long do you find your battery lasts with you current clock?


----------



## Zorlac

Has anyone been able to get the *display.exe* (included with the 1.03 hiFace driver) to work correctly showing bit depth and sample rate?
   
  Mine is stuck on *1 Khz 1637984 Bits*!   0.o


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote: 





regal said:


> The battery I am using is only 1500 or so mAH,  I've only listened about 4 hrs ,   the voltage is still 3.2V's.  When I unplug the Hiface from USB but still leave the battery hooked up to the clock I am not seeing the voltage drop.
> 
> The mod to battery power took me about 1 hr,  it is well worth the effort.  I have honestly never heard digital sound this good.


 
  Can you set up a thread in the DIY forum on this?  The mod of using the better clocks would be interesting as well.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> The battery I am using is only 1500 or so mAH,  I've only listened about 4 hrs ,   the voltage is still 3.2V's.  When I unplug the Hiface from USB but still leave the battery hooked up to the clock I am not seeing the voltage drop.
> 
> The mod to battery power took me about 1 hr,  it is well worth the effort.  I have honestly never heard digital sound this good.


 
  Great stuff.  So in your opinion this is a major mod, and the power is the weak link in this chain?
  Post some pics, some us your handy work.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Great stuff.  So in your opinion this is a major mod, and the power is the weak link in this chain?
> Post some pics, some us your handy work.


 

 Yes,  the Hiface is a brillant design from the USB reciever up to the software,  the rest is pretty much dimestore stuff.   The battery is an ingenuis low cost solution to clock power which used to cost $200-$500 (just look at partsconnexion.com)  This photo is a temporary solution.  Need to get the case and battery holders from Digikey and power the rest of the 3.3V with a separate battery.  I'll post a parts list and instruction in a separate thread if there is interest.


----------



## FauDrei

Love the _"short circuit made in China"_ part...


----------



## regal

Yes this is the budget mod,  you can use better name brand batteries but these are nice because digikey sells a battery holder that fits them and they are  LiFePO4  ,  the the online shop that sells them actual has a great charger for cheap.  I paid I think $20 for 2 batteries and a charger delivered from china.
   
   
  Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Love the _"short circuit made in China"_ part...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> Yes,  the Hiface is a brillant design from the USB reciever up to the software,  the rest is pretty much dimestore stuff.   The battery is an ingenuis low cost solution to clock power which used to cost $200-$500 (just look at partsconnexion.com)  This photo is a temporary solution.  Need to get the case and battery holders from Digikey and power the rest of the 3.3V with a separate battery.  I'll post a parts list and instruction in a separate thread if there is interest.


 
  hmm, I will have to give this a try and see or rather hear if there is indeed a difference.  I would think there is as everybody that uses discrete power with these suggests they make all the difference.


----------



## ccschua

I woud be interested too about the mod especially the 3.3V mod to the clock power supply. appreciate parts list and instr on how to.)
   
  For a 5V start, can I just mod the usb cable (by cutting out the 5V supply and use a 5V battery to supply hiface ?


----------



## regal

Best (cheapest) test would be to compare the battery to the well designed PFM Flea
   
   
   
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/flea_manual.pdf


----------



## Pacha

One guy who reviewed his jkeny modded HiFace reported about LiFePO4 vs PFM Flea  :
   


> _I compared one of the A123 batteries that Jkeny uses to a number of other highly regarded regs, including a PFM flea, and the battery was easily superior to any of them. Kinda sad really as I've spent years building and designing discrete regs. I'm not sure what actually makes the batteries better, so I need to run some more tests, but I suspect it's either self noise from the regs or earth leakage currents causing problems. Good batteries solve these problems, but obviously charging/maintenance becomes the issue._


----------



## ROBSCIX

I have seen these USB isolation circuits, I wonder if they would provide the same type of thing for those that do not want to open up their units.


----------



## sleepy dan

That was me!  Actually I was using the battery to power the analog supply of my Sabre DAC.  Further listening has confirmed my initial positive impressions.
  
  Quote: 





pacha said:


> One guy who reviewed his jkeny modded HiFace reported about LiFePO4 vs PFM Flea  :
> 
> 
> 
> > _I compared one of the A123 batteries that Jkeny uses to a number of other highly regarded regs, including a PFM flea, and the battery was easily superior to any of them. Kinda sad really as I've spent years building and designing discrete regs. I'm not sure what actually makes the batteries better, so I need to run some more tests, but I suspect it's either self noise from the regs or earth leakage currents causing problems. Good batteries solve these problems, but obviously charging/maintenance becomes the issue._


----------



## ROBSCIX

I think I am going to order the USB isolator and see if that improves anything.
  The unit I seen has an adapter input so I guess you could improve that with a battery pack.


----------



## Zorlac

Would this work?
   
http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=1226&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Product+Search&utm_campaign=Product+Search+%28Jun10%29
   
   
http://www.circuitsathome.com/mcu/usb/usb-isolator


----------



## mmerrill99

No USB isolator will work at Hi-speed USB 2.0 so no isolator will work with the Hiface - just stopping you wasting your money


----------



## Zorlac

Doh!!! Nice catch!


----------



## mmerrill99

Also, two different power supplies are being confused here - the 5V supply & the 3.3V supply BUT I'll let Regal explain that as I already did all this a long time ago.


----------



## punk_guy182

5V is for USB but the battery or PSU providing 5V is only responsible for 5% of the gain in SQ.
  3.3V is for the clocks or oscillators which benefit alot of the clean power provided by the batteries. The battereies providing clean 3.3V power to the clocks are responsible for the major gain in SQ.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> No USB isolator will work at Hi-speed USB 2.0 so no isolator will work with the Hiface - just stopping you wasting your money


 

 So your saying units that use this chip, LINK Don't support full speed USB 2.0 bandwidths? 
  Have you tested one built around this chip as it says it supports these speeds just fine.
   
  I am asking as I was curious as to if such devices would work properly or not.  However, if it couldn't keep up with the data from any devices then what would be the point of building them at all?


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





robscix said:


> So your saying units that use this chip, LINK Don't support full speed USB 2.0 bandwidths?
> Have you tested one built around this chip as it says it supports these speeds just fine.
> 
> I am asking as I was curious as to if such devices would work properly or not.  However, if it couldn't keep up with the data from any devices then what would be the point of building them at all?


 

 No, it doesn't say that at all. Read the page:
   
    Fully USB 2.0 Compliant
  Low and full speed data rate: 1.5 Mbps and 12 Mbps
   
  It may be "compliant", but the full USB 2.0 data rate is 480 Mbps. You may want to check out the Lab Brick USB Hub. It's a powered hub that provides as much isolation from 5V computer noise as possible without compromising the full USB 2.0 spec.


----------



## mmerrill99

Read it again - it doesn't say it supports _*HI-SPEED*_ USB 2.0 - so no it won't work with the Hiface!


----------



## ROBSCIX

I did read it, that is what I am asking you...  How much bandwidth would/does the HiFace use?
  I am not trying to come across as saying it should work or I know it will work etc...I am asking for more info on the subject...
  I don't get how they can say it is USB2 compliant, compatible..etc and yet it will not support full USB 2.0 speeds.That bites!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> No, it doesn't say that at all. Read the page:
> 
> Fully USB 2.0 Compliant
> Low and full speed data rate: 1.5 Mbps and 12 Mbps
> ...


 
  I have looked at about 10 different ideas around this type of circuit.  Thx for the info


----------



## mmerrill99

It needs the full HI-speed USB 2.0 bandwith (480 Mbps) for data bursts apparently, AFAIR. You won't be able to do Hi-speed  isolation with any known method, at the moment - we've been through all this before, I think.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> It needs the full HI-speed USB 2.0 bandwith (480 Mbps) for data bursts apparently, AFAIR. You won't be able to do Hi-speed  isolation with any known method, at the moment - we've been through all this before, I think.


 

 Yeah, I was wondering about the actual speeds of the HiFace, however, I will say that is pretty high for a simple USB to S/Pdif converter.  WIll have to figure out something else.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Yeah, I was wondering about the actual speeds of the HiFace, however, I will say that is pretty high for a simple USB to S/Pdif converter.  WIll have to figure out something el


 

 Ask Marco he will tell you what are the speeds required for the hiface.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> It needs the full HI-speed USB 2.0 bandwith (480 Mbps) for data bursts apparently, AFAIR. You won't be able to do Hi-speed  isolation with any known method, at the moment - we've been through all this before, I think.


 


 No one has tested the 480MBs wireless USB hubs,  that is the only known isolation that claims 480mbs.  Personally I find the Hiface sound good enough with the battery power that I am not worried about the isolation at this point.
   
  Everyone should use the batteries first,  then I think you won't be sweating the small stuff so much.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





regal said:


> Personally I find the Hiface sound good enough with the battery power that I am not worried about the isolation at this point.
> Everyone should use the batteries first,  then I think you won't be sweating the small stuff so much.


 

 Are you still planning to replace the clocks on your battery powered Hiface? I'm wondering if swapping in Tentlabs XO clocks would be a worthwhile upgrade in addition to battery power.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Has anyone been able to get the *display.exe* (included with the 1.03 hiFace driver) to work correctly showing bit depth and sample rate?
> 
> Mine is stuck on *1 Khz 1637984 Bits*!   0.o


 

 Mine is stuck on  1244672


----------



## regal

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Are you still planning to replace the clocks on your battery powered Hiface? I'm wondering if swapping in Tentlabs XO clocks would be a worthwhile upgrade in addition to battery power.


 

 Eventually,  I want to case this up power all 3.3V devices (not just the clocks) with the batteries,  live with it for a while then order the clocks.


----------



## sleepy dan

With regard to Hiface bandwidth requirements, here's a measurement I did a while back at 44.1KHz 24bit:
   
   
   
   
  I'll try to get some measurements done at higher sample rates.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> With regard to Hiface bandwidth requirements, here's a measurement I did a while back at 44.1KHz 24bit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for the tests.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> No one has tested the 480MBs wireless USB hubs,  that is the only known isolation that claims 480mbs.  Personally I find the Hiface sound good enough with the battery power that I am not worried about the isolation at this point.
> 
> Everyone should use the batteries first,  then I think you won't be sweating the small stuff so much.


 
  Exactly! Couldn't agree with you more - everything else is just fussing about the edges!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> No one has tested the 480MBs wireless USB hubs,  that is the only known isolation that claims 480mbs.  Personally I find the Hiface sound good enough with the battery power that I am not worried about the isolation at this point.
> 
> Everyone should use the batteries first,  then I think you won't be sweating the small stuff so much.


 

 Nobody was really "sweating the small stuff" just looking for alternate ways to get cleaner power to the device.
  Can you post some better pics so we can see where you connected up the new power source?
  I am all for ordering some components and doing some modding.


----------



## ccschua

with regards to the mod, I wonder if a clean 3.3V supply to the CPLD and a clean 1.8V supply to the CPLD bring s about some improvement say 20% of the 3.3V clock supply mod?
   
  I wonder if its possible to put a switch on the hiface between stock supply and battery supply. This is to provide a switch in case the battery is low.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





ccschua said:


> with regards to the mod, I wonder if a clean 3.3V supply to the CPLD and a clean 1.8V supply to the CPLD bring s about some improvement say 20% of the 3.3V clock supply mod?
> 
> I wonder if its possible to put a switch on the hiface between stock supply and battery supply. This is to provide a switch in case the battery is low.


 
  A clean 3.3V to the CPLD will bring about some improvement - maybe in the ballpark % you mention. It powers the I-O pins of the CPLD which is where the clocks are muxed/buffered. The 1.8V shouldn't make too much of a difference as it powers the CPLD logic core only!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> A clean 3.3V to the CPLD will bring about some improvement - maybe in the ballpark % you mention. It powers the I-O pins of the CPLD which is where the clocks are muxed/buffered. The 1.8V shouldn't make too much of a difference as it powers the CPLD logic core only!


 

 So in your expert opinion, which power modification brings the best sonic gains?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





robscix said:


> So in your expert opinion, which power modification brings the best sonic gains?


 

 It's already been told to you - the clocks being powered by 3.3V batteries !!!!


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> So in your expert opinion, which power modification brings the best sonic gains?


 

 Yo ROBBY check this out my man!
   
https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/Options


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> It's already been told to you - the clocks being powered by 3.3V batteries !!!!


 


 Just asking a quesiton based on what you wrote above.  Yes I know about the 3.3 V batteries...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> Yo ROBBY check this out my man!
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/Options


 
  Yo punky...might aswell just do the mods yourself.


----------



## mmerrill99

YO robix here you go but why ask the same question over & over again when it's been answered already by two different people?! - check this out - all the Hiface modifications detailed in high-res annotated pictures already: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=68000&highlight=hiface+jkeny&r=
   
  Sorry Regal if this steals your thunder but it might save you all the work of photographing it - I leave you to explain it as this is this is the path you are following, I believe!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> YO robix here you go but why ask the same question over & over again when it's been answered already by two different people?! - check this out - all the Hiface modifications detailed in high-res annotated pictures already: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=68000&highlight=hiface+jkeny&r=
> 
> Sorry Regal if this steals your thunder but it might save you all the work of photographing it - I leave you to explain it as this is this is the path you are following, I believe!


 
  I asked you once. I was following what you said in post #1295.
  Also, if you want to try and be rude atleast get the name right.
  Why do you keep saying the same info you have said to others over and over and over?
  Perhaps because it is a discussion forum and similar points come up again and again?
  Remind me not to ask you anything related to your mods anymore.....
   
  Thanks for the pic though.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I asked you once. I was following what you said in post #1295.
> Also, if you want to try and be rude atleast get the name right.
> Why do you keep saying the same info you have said to others over and over and over?
> Perhaps because it is a discussion forum and similar points come up again and again?
> Remind me not to ask you anything related to your mods anymore.....


 
   
  Yeah jkeny can be abrupt in speech at times.
  That's too bad that there isn't a picture of your modded USB cable on the link you just shared with us.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> Yeah jkeny can be abrupt in speech at times.
> That's too bad that here isn't a picture of your modded USB cable on the link you just shared with us.


 
  We all can be I guess.  I wasn't meaning to ask a similar question to which was answered.  I have read quite a bit of information on modding these devices.  for instance, in that link he posted here is more power info:
  - Supply an external clean 5V supply in place of the USB 5V - evaluate
 - Supply an external clean 3.3V supply to the two audio clocks - evaluate
 - Supply a separate clean 3.3V supply to the CPLD - evaluate
 - Supply a clean 1.8V supply to the CPLD - evaluate
   
  What I meant is more along the lines of, Based on what you have tested the 3.3 is the best?
  So go with the 3.3 and forget about the 5v..etc?
  I wasn't meaning to ask a similar question as I understand what has been done by regal but I like to clarify based on things other people have done in relation to modding.
  Hope that makes sense.
   
  BTW, what modded USB cable are you talking about?


----------



## mmerrill99

I just get frustrated with the same question being asked & answered many times - I don't know what else to say - it's not all about the person asking the question & you don't have a "right " to get an answer so when a question is answered, I think a bit of understanding & appreciation about the time taken to answer it would not go amiss.
   
  Punk_guy, this relate to your questions also - I've answered a number of times your request for a pic of the cable or a video of the modified Hiface in action - it really is an annoyance!
   
  If you consider this abrupt language then you should examine why I feel the need to use direct language - maybe the message isn't getting through in the normal communication?


----------



## mmerrill99

Having said that,I'm done here - I'll strike this one off my subscribed threads - Regal will be doing these mods anyway & can answer your questions, I'm sure.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I just get frustrated with the same question being asked & answered many times - I don't know what else to say - it's not all about the person asking the question & you don't have a "right " to get an answer so when a question is answered, I think a bit of understanding & appreciation about the time taken to answer it would not go amiss.
> 
> Punk_guy, this relate to your questions also - I've answered a number of times your request for a pic of the cable or a video of the modified Hiface in action - it really is an annoyance!
> 
> If you consider this abrupt language then you should examine why I feel the need to use direct language - maybe the message isn't getting through in the normal communication?


 
  I asked you once.  I never said I had a "right to get an answer"  Don't answer...who cares? -I was trying to participate in a discussion....
  You think you are owed something from people because you participate in a conversation and answer a question or two?
  Whatever.....
   
  Back to the Hiface...


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Punk_guy, this relate to your questions also - I've answered a number of times your request for a pic of the cable or a video of the modified Hiface in action - it really is an annoyance!
> If you consider this abrupt language then you should examine why I feel the need to use direct language - maybe the message isn't getting through in the normal communication?


 
  We all appreciate very much what you have done so far on the hiFace. Regarding my last comment on the USB cable, I was just teasing. Hence the smiley face 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  I look very much forward to see how your latest mod on the hiface works. As soon as you reveal the info I'll order one from you. My setup definitely needs a good source like the hiFace w/ jkeny mod.
   
  The man has done some terrific work on the hiface and he has helped us understand what he has done by answering our questions.
  I raise my pint of Guinness to jkeny!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I asked you once.  I never said I had a "right to get an answer"  Don't answer...who cares? -I was trying to participate in a discussion....
> You think you are owed something from people because you participate in a conversation and answer a question or two?
> Whatever.....
> 
> Back to the Hiface...


 
  Listen, ROBSCIX, I posted when I saw that you were going to buy an ADUM device & I thought I'd save you some money & time & frustration - you posted wanting proof - I answered - you asked some more - I answered - you asked about power then - I answered - & again - I answered - have a look back over the last two or three pages of posts, OK, -
   
  Your post above says all I need to know about you -  I won't bother any more - sayonara!
   
  That link I gave was the wrong one BTW, there is a thread somewhere with all the annotated pics in high res!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


jkeny said:


> Listen, ROBSCIX, I posted when I saw that you were going to buy an ADUM device & I thought I'd save you some money & time & frustration - you posted wanting proof - I answered - you asked some more - I answered - you asked about power then - I answered - & again - I answered - have a look back over the last two or three pages of posts, OK, -
> 
> Your post above says all I need to know about you -  I won't bother any more - sayonara!
> 
> That link I gave was the wrong one BTW, there is a thread somewhere with all the annotated pics in high res!


 

 Wow, so you were having a discussion on a discussion forum?
  Your posting says all I need to know about you too.  I don't care if you invented the Hiface, doesn't give you the right to be rude to people because you think you are some how owed something for gracing us with your presence and answering a few questions.  Let some air out of your big head...
  I asked you once about the power mod based on the information posted before it.
  Anyway, answer peoples questions or don't answer...personally, I don't care.
   
  perhaps we can get back on topic.


----------



## GreenLeo

Technically the 480 Mbps is called USB Hi speed and 12 Mbps is called the USB full speed.  Stupid names because the full speed of USB 1.1 was (and is) 12Mbps and the naming convention remains.  I saw this confusion came up a few times and hope this post helps.
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> No, it doesn't say that at all. Read the page:
> 
> Fully USB 2.0 Compliant
> Low and full speed data rate: 1.5 Mbps and 12 Mbps
> ...


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Quote:
> 
> Wow, so you were having a discussion on a discussion forum?
> Your posting says all I need to know about you too.  I don't care if you invented the Hiface, doesn't give you the right to be rude to people because you think you are some how owed something for gracing us with your presence and answering a few questions.  Let some air out of your big head...
> ...


 
  I understand what your feeling.
  I think that the best way to settle this confusion regarding Q&A should be to have a some way to be directed to jkeny's homepage of the hiFace mod or have all those general questions answered briefly in the first post.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> I understand what your feeling.
> I think that the best way to settle this confusion regarding Q&A should be to have a some way to be directed to jkeny's homepage of the hiFace mod or have all those general questions answered briefly in the first post.


 
  I basically have what I need if I decide to do any mods on one of these...
  Thanks for the help.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





greenleo said:


> Technically the 480 Mbps is called USB Hi speed and 12 Mbps is called the USB full speed.  Stupid names because the full speed of USB 1.1 was (and is) 12Mbps and the naming convention remains.  I saw this confusion came up a few times and hope this post helps.


 

 I appreciate the clarification.


----------



## Zorlac

Sorry if I am asking a question that has already been asked/answered, but is there anyway to have this mod work using a separate power supply rather than a battery and still get good results? I just dont want to worry and/or deal with batteries.
   
  Also, from the leaked info on the EVO, do you guys think it will essentially match the quality (sonically) of Jkeny's mod?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Sorry if I am asking a question that has already been asked/answered, but is there anyway to have this mod work using a separate power supply rather than a battery and still get good results? I just dont want to worry and/or deal with batteries.
> 
> Also, from the leaked info on the EVO, do you guys think it will essentially match the quality (sonically) of Jkeny's mod?


 
   
  No way the EVO will match the Jkeny mod (I know I'm theorizing again)  but I really don't see how it could.
   
   
  As far as a separate power supply to the clocks instead of batteries you might consider one of these (notice the price tag):
   
http://www.partsconnexion.com/digital_dexans.html 
   
  You'll need 2.
   
  You may want to try the pfmflea as a cheaper alternative if you can't live with batteries but don't have an extra grand in your pocket.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Sorry if I am asking a question that has already been asked/answered, but is there anyway to have this mod work using a separate power supply rather than a battery and still get good results? I just dont want to worry and/or deal with batteries.
> 
> Also, from the leaked info on the EVO, do you guys think it will essentially match the quality (sonically) of Jkeny's mod?


 

 You can get the hiFace to work with any other PSU but you will not get near the good results of jkeny's batteries.
 The batteries that he is using are quite something apparently.
  From what has been said so far on the Evo, it will not be as good as the Hiface w/ jkeny mod but we'll see once the unit comes out in early september and people start tweaking it.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Having said that,I'm done here - I'll strike this one off my subscribed threads - Regal will be doing these mods anyway & can answer your questions, I'm sure.


 
   
  I won't be doing any mods other than my own hiface,  not here to make a buck. But I will share my experiences the best I can with my digital camera.  Any tips on taking closeup macro pic's would be appreciated.
   
  You guys really pissed jkeny off,  understand that he is breaking every rule in the book posting in here without paying "member of the trade" dues.  But I'm sure his business isn't big enough to justify his dues.  He is merely providing a service to those who are soldering inept,  thats all he is doing. 
   
  If he wants to play it up bigger than that this, you should see "member of the trade" by his avatar.  Understand?
   
  The guy that said he invented the Hiface :  I really hope you were being sarcastic.


----------



## xdanny

Just got my jkeny modded hiFace today.  Man, what an odyssey it has been for this little package...  USPS almost screwed it up for me, first they blamed the sender for not having the address correctly written on the envelope, then admitting they effed up...  Phewww...  Anyway, here are my first impressions...
   
  It arrived carefully packed.  The black box containing the batteries and the hiFace unit looks to me very professional and factory made...  Sturdy too, with no rattling noises inside or anything.   I also received the modded usb cable.
   
  I'm itching really badly to plug it in.  However, in my infinite wisdom, I forgot I didn't have a BNC cable (duh!!).  So I've ordered an Oyaide 510...  I'm also ordering a charger for the batteries.
   
  Unfortunately, I will not have a regular hiFace to compare it to.  But I can tell you for sure this was the weak link in my system, getting an unmolested file from the computer to the dac.  For my budget, I believe I've put together a pretty revealing system, so I am looking forward to see what improvements the hiFace will bring.   I am using strictly foobar on a dedicated computer.  My os is XP, but I will also have a Win 7 machine to compare between the two.  The discussion that took place a few pages ago on XP vs 7 really got me interested...  I will keep you all posted.
   
  IMHO, you guys need to understand how jkeny can get a little tired of answering the same question over and over again...  I feel guilty too, because I literally bombarded the man with all kinds of dumb questions via PM...  He did explain all this stuff earlier in the thread.  I have nothing but good things to say about how he handled my mod.  For what it's worth, he is very honest, and to me that goes a long way...
   
  Regards,
  Danny


----------



## ccschua

Would appreciate if someone can write a faq / close up picture of the mod. first 3.3v to the clock and the next 3.3v to the CPLD


----------



## xdanny

There are close up pics earlier in the thread, with some detailed instructions on how to do it.  You might have to look for them a bit, but they are there.  Check around pages 45 to 65, I'm not totally sure but I think it's somewhere in that range...


----------



## regal

See below,  this is how you power the clocks with the LiFePO4 battery.   To remove the inductor cover it in flux and heat up the metal ends left to right back and forth till it pries off.   Clean up the pads with flux and solder wick,  use a magnifying glass to make sure there is no solder bridge between the left and right pads. 
  Connect the positive terminal of the battery to the RIGHT pad.  Soon I will have part numbers for a case that fits the hiface and battery holders perfectly,  have a wedding to go to first.  Will figure out the CPLD as well,  but below will get you 90% there.


----------



## regal

Battery Holders from Digikey,  Part # BK-18650-PC2-ND,  they have solder tabs. Buy two.  I'm 90% sure this is the best case:SR113B-ND but don't order till I verify fitment next week.


----------



## regal




----------



## GreenLeo

@Regal,
   
  Can you post the link that you got 2 LiFePO4 18650 batteries with a charger for 20$?  I"m tempted to try them.


----------



## sleepy dan

Hi Regal, nice work, and thanks for the photos.  A suggestion: Ideally the negative of the battery should be connected as close as possible to it's load, the clock, otherwise the clock is seeing any noise on the earth between it and the battery connection.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Hi Regal, nice work, and thanks for the photos.  A suggestion: Ideally the negative of the battery should be connected as close as possible to it's load, the clock, otherwise the clock is seeing any noise on the earth between it and the battery connection.


 
  this is closer to a star ground IMO.  But to each is own.  We all have our ears to expirement with and decide whats best.



  
  Quote: 





greenleo said:


> @Regal,
> 
> Can you post the link that you got 2 LiFePO4 18650 batteries with a charger for 20$?  I"m tempted to try them.


 

  
http://www.szwholesale.com/18650-32vrechargeable-battery1865032v-p-1139.html     - LiFePO4 Batteries
   
http://www.szwholesale.com/universal-charger-18650-16340-lion-nimh-nicd-battery-p-3241.html     -Charger
   
  I think the total was around $20 shipped to the USA,  took about a week.  Again IMO a LiFePO4 battery is an LiFePO4 battery for our purposes.


----------



## sleepy dan

Sure.  If you are interested, start grounding isn't used in digital electronics - ground planes are.  Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses, but in this application, I'd strongly recommend anyone wanting to try this to connect the battery as close as possible to the clock.  It may not make much difference when it comes to listening, but technically it's the correct method.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> this is closer to a star ground IMO.  But to each is own.  We all have our ears to expirement with and decide whats best.


----------



## regal

When I case it up I'll move it but if it degrades the sounds I'm hunting you down   Appreciate any and all feedback commentary this is truly a unique device and the SQ improvement from the 1 hr I put into was just plain incredible. With a well mastered CD there is no need for vinyl with this baby.
   
   
  One positive is you don't need a switch to keep the clocks from draining the battery when not in use,  just pull the USB cord,  the clocks no longer pull any juice.
   
  You do need a male-femal USB cord to do this mod.   I made the mistake of ordering a 3M cord instead of 3ft!,  but the sound is still good.  Maybe keeping this thing as far from the PC as possible is good.   The case + Batteries will be light enough that a BNC femal-femal adapter will support the whole thing at the back of the DAC negating the need for an expensive digital cable!
  
   
   
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Sure.  If you are interested, start grounding isn't used in digital electronics - ground planes are.  Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses, but in this application, I'd strongly recommend anyone wanting to try this to connect the battery as close as possible to the clock.  It may not make much difference when it comes to listening, but technically it's the correct method.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





regal said:


> The case + Batteries will be light enough that a BNC femal-femal adapter will support the whole thing at the back of the DAC negating the need for an expensive digital cable!


 

 I think that's a very good idea to get rid of the S/PDIF cable. What kind of adapter will you be using? The only one I found that could fit the hiface was a Male BNC to Male BNC adapter on ebay. I don't think that a female one will fit.
  I,d like to know if you find any SQ improvement with your adapter compared to a pricey S/PDIF cable like the Oyaide DB-510.


----------



## regal

http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1053
  
  Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> I think that's a very good idea to get rid of the S/PDIF cable. What kind of adapter will you be using? The only one I found that could fit the hiface was a Male BNC to Male BNC adapter on ebay. I don't think that a female one will fit.
> I,d like to know if you find any SQ improvement with your adapter compared to a pricey S/PDIF cable like the Oyaide DB-510.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> I won't be doing any mods other than my own hiface,  not here to make a buck. But I will share my experiences the best I can with my digital camera.  Any tips on taking closeup macro pic's would be appreciated.
> 
> You guys really pissed jkeny off,  understand that he is breaking every rule in the book posting in here without paying "member of the trade" dues.  But I'm sure his business isn't big enough to justify his dues.  He is merely providing a service to those who are soldering inept,  thats all he is doing.
> 
> ...


 

 Do you have a tripod?  Works great for Macro shots.
   
  I think he did his share of pissing people off also.  That is great that he is helping  out but that gives him no right to come across as he did.
  I didn't actually mean that HE invented the hiface,....read it again. I meant, I wouldn't care IF he invented the unit, that still gives him no right to act rudely to others.  That is not to say he did....


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> I think that's a very good idea to get rid of the S/PDIF cable. What kind of adapter will you be using? The only one I found that could fit the hiface was a Male BNC to Male BNC adapter on ebay. I don't think that a female one will fit.
> I,d like to know if you find any SQ improvement with your adapter compared to a pricey S/PDIF cable like the Oyaide DB-510.


 
   
  So your using a male to male BNC adapter and connecting the Hiface to the DAC itself?

 I guess you are just using a USB extension cable then?


----------



## regal

No posted the wrong link,  its corrected above
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> So your using a male to male BNC adapter and connecting the Hiface to the DAC itself?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Do you have a tripod?  Works great for Macro shots.
> 
> I think he did his share of pissing people off also.  That is great that he is helping  out but that gives him no right to come across as he did.
> I didn't actually mean that HE invented the hiface,....read it again. I meant, I wouldn't care IF he invented the unit, that still gives him no right to act rudely to others.  That is not to say he did....


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> No posted the wrong link,  its corrected above


 

 It is still early here...no coffee yet.  You guys are connecting the HiFace as close to the DAC as possible correct?
  I guess that negates the need for the S/Pdif cable...cool.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





regal said:


> http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1053


 
  I don't see how this adapter can work?
  The plugs on the hiFace and the DAC are female. Therefore, you need a Male to male adapter.
  It would probably interesting to have Male BNC PCB mounted plug on the hiFace but I could't find one and so did Marco.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> I don't see how this adapter can work?
> The plugs on the hiFace and the DAc are female. Therefore, you need a Male to male adapter.


 

 Yes, that is what I thought...male to male adapter that goes between the two female jacks. 
  The question is from a design standpoint, is it better to have an extended USB cable or an extended S/Pdif cable.
  Are you using a USB extension or just sitting the hiface between a DAC and laptop? -not sure if that would work but possible.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Yes, that is what I thought...male to male adapter that goes between the two female jacks.
> The question is from a design standpoint, is it better to have an extended USB cable or an extended S/Pdif cable.
> Are you using a USB extension or just sitting the hiface between a DAC and laptop? -not sure if that would work but possible.


 
  That's right male pin goes into female hole. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  From the design standpoint I don't know. Marco favors S/PDIF cables over USB ones apparently but he hasn't explained to me why. I still think that we should try using a short USB cable like jkeny's and have some sort of Male BNC to Male BNC adapter or a Male BNC plug mounted on the PCB of the hiface to be hooked directly to the DAC.
   
  I sold my hiFace awhile ago and I'm waiting impatiently for jkeny to release some info on his latest mod on the hiface. When that is done, I will order one from him with his USB cable. My setup deperatly needs a good source.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> That's right male pin goes into female hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I understand that but I am following you guys who seem to be a bit mixed up
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyway, my hiFace is Coax unless I decide to mod that also...  The idea of putting the hiface right on the DAC is simple enough but as I said I am wondering, if that is the way to go.
  I would think it would be better to extend the S/Pdif instead of the USB but that is just guess work.  I am rebuilding the entire system from the USB out to the S/Pdif in...
  Hopefully things will work out as I want.  Why not do the mods yourself?  That new EVO looks like it may be a great modding platform but I have not tried it so I am unsure how it compares to the HiFace


----------



## regal

http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1054&gclid=CNLx88CGp6ICFRRM5QodlmbxSw
   
   
  They sell male/male too,  I ordered both,  will let you know which one works.
   
   
   
  With stock hiface it would be better to have a no USB cable,  but as we go to powering it mostly by battery then it makes sense to eliminate the digital cable,   because the hiface is the master the computer the slave,  its as close as you can get to slaving the transport to the DAC . .   We can experiment and see which is best..


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I would think it would be better to extend the S/Pdif instead of the USB but that is just guess work.  I am rebuilding the entire system from the USB out to the S/Pdif in...
> Hopefully things will work out as I want.  Why not do the mods yourself?  That new EVO looks like it may be a great modding platform but I have not tried it so I am unsure how it compares to the HiFace


 

 S/PDIF cables are more vulnerable to SQ degradation du to signal reflections and USB cables don't hav ethat problem apparently. therefore it would be more convenient SQ wise and money wise to use a USB cable instead of an S/PDIF one.
  I now that jkeny is working on something to minimize the vulnerability of S/PDIF signals with the hiFace. he share with us very soon his ideas.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> S/PDIF cables are more vulnerable to SQ degradation du to signal reflections and USB cables don't hav ethat problem apparently. therefore it would be more convenient SQ wise and money wise to use a USB cable instead of an S/PDIF one.
> I now that jkeny is working on something to minimize the vulnerability of S/PDIF signals with the hiFace. he share with us very soon his ideas.


 

 I understand all that but I bet people would suggest the opposite also.  Saying that a long USB cable could influence the signal...I guess testing would answer the question.
   
  What do you think of the EVO?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1054&gclid=CNLx88CGp6ICFRRM5QodlmbxSw
> 
> 
> They sell male/male too,  I ordered both,  will let you know which one works.
> ...


 
  I have seen people that use adapters on their DAC's to go from S/Pdif to BNC. I have read that some sugegst that BNC cable is the best way to go but I don't think you would get the same benefits using the adapters. 
  I think I might look for a male to male RCA adapter similar to what you posted but for Coax based HiFace,  I will see if I can find one.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> I agree,  and people should complain that he is pitching his products without being listed as a member of the trade.


 

 Was that comment really necessary? 

  
  Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> I now that jkeny is working on something to minimize the vulnerability of S/PDIF signals with the hiFace. *he share with us *very soon his ideas.


 
   
  And he should want to share it with us because.....................?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Was that comment really necessary?
> 
> 
> 
> And he should want to share it with us because.....................?


 
  Can we get back to the topic at hand, which is the Hiface?


----------



## regal

/img/forum/go_quote.gif  Absolutely read the FAQ:
   
*I am a manufacturer. Is there anything special for me?*
Our site's focus is user generated content, so we ask that you do not review your own products. However, we do think it's important to get manufacturers in the conversation. As such, we've got a program to help you engage your potential customers, get feedback from key influencers, build brand loyalty, and even drive traffic to your website and consequently sales.  For more details on the Industry Insiders program, email advertise@head-fi.org.  
   
   
   





  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Was that comment really necessary?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1054&gclid=CNLx88CGp6ICFRRM5QodlmbxSw
> 
> 
> They sell male/male too,  I ordered both,  will let you know which one works.
> ...


 

 I found the adapter but I am not sure about the quality.  If I want it between one of my DAC's and the Hiface I was it to be high quality.  Perhaps it may be a better idea to just build one.
  Did you ever notice any differences between COaxial cable and BNC for S/Pdif usage?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I found the adapter but I am not sure about the quality.  If I want it between one of my DAC's and the Hiface I was it to be high quality.  Perhaps it may be a better idea to just build one.
> Did you ever notice any differences between COaxial cable and BNC for S/Pdif usage?


 

 The connector looks fine to me its not irridium plated and cryo-treated but I don't think the electrons will care. You could have it gold plated or you could always change the BNC on your dac so the Hiface plugs in directly without an adapter if you're concerned.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> The connector looks fine to me its not irridium plated and cryo-treated but I don't think the electrons will care. You could have it gold plated or you could always change the BNC on your dac so the Hiface plugs in directly without an adapter if you're concerned.


 

 No, no I meant I found a RCA to RCA adapter to use with the Hiface but I think it looks a bit cheap so I am considering just building one.
  DId you take any macro shots yet?


----------



## FauDrei

I think someone is trolling here... perhaps unintentionally, but still trolling.
   
  All those questions are, repeatedly, answered before (BNC vs. RCA, USB cable vs. SPDIF cable, which hiFace PSes are most important, etc.). It takes just going some pages back and/or searching through this thread.
   
  If you repeatedly fail to ask/give something informative/constructive about the topic that has not been posted already, please avoid "submit" button - this is not your _stream of consciousness_ thread.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Can we get back to the topic at hand, which is the Hiface?


 

 Advice that perhaps you could have benefited from.
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Probably the most constructive 3 pages of this damn 91 page thread and we get accused of trolling.  What a freakin joke. Faudrie has all the answers, no if and or buts he knows everything there is to know about the Hiface,  all questions have all been answered before by the experts.  And what has he contributed to the thread?  he's a troll spotter.
   
  Submit


----------



## FauDrei

Interesting...
   
  My rant was not targeted at regal, but he still identified himself there...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Interesting...
> 
> My rant was not targeted at regal, but he still identified himself there...


 

 We were discussing topics and having a conversation. All I was doing was following along with the discussion brought up by another and asking question of the people I was talking with.  If you don't like it perhaps you should avoid the submit button.
  The only person trolling here is you.
  Perhaps all the larger threads should be locked and be for reference only considering they all go in the same circular direction.  Is the idea of a discussion forum lost on you?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> Probably the most constructive 3 pages of this damn 91 page thread and we get accused of trolling.  What a freakin joke. Faudrie has all the answers, no if and or buts he knows everything there is to know about the Hiface,  all questions have all been answered before by the experts.  And what has he contributed to the thread?  he's a troll spotter.
> 
> Submit


 

 I was asking questions and discussing the topics being mentioned by others as were you.  Pretty bad when we cannot do that without some troll sticking his big mouth in there.
   
  Anyway...
  I wanted to ask you what ideas you had for the case and the power. I understand you have the batteries etc, but are you considering adding a holder and charging circuit?
  I was messing with different ideas for charging circuits so was wondering if you thought anything up.  Thanks for the links the the batteries and charger...


----------



## FauDrei




----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

What is SPDIF anyways?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> What is SPDIF anyways?


 

 From Wikki,
*S/PDIF* is a Data Link Layer protocol and a set of Physical Layer specifications for carrying digital audio signals between devices and stereo components over either optical or electrical cable. The name stands for *Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format* (more commonly known as *Sony Philips Digital Interface*), Sony and Philips being the primary designers of S/PDIF. S/PDIF is standardized in IEC 60958 where it is known as *IEC 60958 type II*. S/PDIF is essentially a minor modification for consumer use of the original AES/EBU standard, providing small differences in the protocol and requiring less-expensive hardware.
   
  Hope that helps.


----------



## Zorlac

I bought these for mine http://www.crutchfield.com/p_211ZNADP2M/StreetWires-Couplers.html?search=male+to+male+rca&ssi=0
  
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> No, no I meant I found a RCA to RCA adapter to use with the Hiface but I think it looks a bit cheap so I am considering just building one.
> DId you take any macro shots yet?


----------



## punk_guy182

For those interested in BNC Male to Male couplers: http://shop.ebay.ca/i.html?_nkw=bnc+male+to+male+coupler&_sacat=0&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_odkw=bnc+coupler&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313
   
  I don't know if they are all the same but they are inexpensive.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> I bought these for mine http://www.crutchfield.com/p_211ZNADP2M/StreetWires-Couplers.html?search=male+to+male+rca&ssi=0


 

 Those are a bit better looking for quality.  Thanks for the link.
  I still may just make a small adapter for fun but buy one also.


----------



## DaveBSC

A Hiface competitor called Audiophilleo is designed to connect directly to the DAC's BNC input with an adapter. They seem to think that's the preferable solution over using an S/Pdif cable. As for BNC vs RCA, it's all in the connector. RCA connectors aren't anywhere close to 75 Ohm. I wish more DAC manufacturers would use BNC as RCA based S/Pdif is a significant compromise. Or at least offer both jacks, it's not like its that big of deal. BNC is much more useful than AES/EBU in most cases.


----------



## glingrem

BNC unapplicable in AES/EBU because it's three-wire interface
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> . BNC is much more useful than AES/EBU in most cases.


----------



## glingrem




----------



## glingrem




----------



## DaveBSC

I meant that BNC is easier to implement and more practical than AES/EBU. I'm not sure how close the standard XLR connector can get to 110 Ohm, but I doubt it does a better job than BNC. Most high-end DACs have RCA and AES/EBU digital inputs, yet leave out BNC. Toslink is always there though, even though its pretty much useless in truly high-end applications.
   
  What would _really_ be nice is if everybody could agree on an I2S standard. No more DINs, RJ-45s, HDMI, etc. Just pick one already and stick to it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

That unit you posted seems great but it is way out of the price range of the HiFace.


----------



## regal

And I wouldn't trade a battery powered hiface for one either.
   
  I'll be back on Monday with pics of the finished mod.
   
   
  Hopefully that troll sniper will be gone by then, sounds like he targeting everyone who posts,  be careful out there.
   
   
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> That unit you posted seems great but it is way out of the price range of the HiFace.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





regal said:


> And I wouldn't trade a battery powered hiface for one either.
> 
> I'll be back on Monday with pics of the finished mod.
> 
> ...


 
  Hopefully I will be able to test out a battery powered unit myself very soon.  Hopefully it is as good as everybody suggests.
  I learned along time to put negative -trolling people on ignore...it makes the forums so much better.
  Pretty bad that a few of us cannot have a conversation without some jerk coming in and telling us we shouldn't be talking about those topics!
  Large threads are always circular and topics come up again and again.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





robscix said:


> That unit you posted seems great but it is way out of the price range of the HiFace.


 

 Yeah, it probably sounds better than the standard Hiface, but I really doubt its a match for the battery mod. Definitely not worth the money they are charging, and the Hiface EVO walks all over it in terms of capabilities.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Yeah, it probably sounds better than the standard Hiface, but I really doubt its a match for the battery mod. Definitely not worth the money they are charging, and the Hiface EVO walks all over it in terms of capabilities.


 
  If you look around there are some very expensive S/Pdif sources out there.  Many suggest that for the price the Hiface can hang with most of these higher priced units.  However, it is hard to say without actually doing the comparisons.


----------



## Rudivanb

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Those are a bit better looking for quality.  Thanks for the link.
> I still may just make a small adapter for fun but buy one also.


 

 A while ago I promised to experiment and compare between these connections:
 1. USB port -> USB cable -> USB hub (ext. powered) -> hiFace -> BNC male/male adapter -> DAC
 or
 2. USB port -> USB male/male adapter -> ext. powered USB hub -> hiFace -> BNC coax cable -> DAC
 Took me a while, but now I have Oyaide DB-510 BNC S/PDIF 1,3 meter and an USB Wireworld Starlight cable of 0,9 meter both burned in.
 I realize there are two factors in this comparison, the different cables and way of connecting.
 So which sounds better? Well at least it sounds different. Here are my two pennies worth:
   
  Connection 2. with the S/PDIF cable sounds warmer, more natural, conveying the emotion far better, where as
  1. with the USB cable in between sounds more hi-fi, more hiss and some details jumped up more.
 Will repeat this comparison later to see if I hear and feel the same, I am also curious what some friends of me have to say when they will hear it.


----------



## dburna

Funny you should mention this, Rudivanb.  I just undertook a similar experiment today:
   
  Config #1: HiFace S/PDIF -> Stealth Varidig digital (S/PDIF) cable -> AudioSector S/PDIF DAC
   
  Config #2: Crap-ass (Ativa) USB extender cable (male-to-female) -> HiFace S/PDIF -> RCA male-to-male adapter -> AudioSector S/PDIF DAC
   
  Configuration #1 won out for me.  It was a little warmer, but the bigger problem was that the soundstage shrunk a good deal in Config #2.  It was pretty flat and uninvolving emotionally. 
   
  Admittedly, it was a quick listen, and the Ativa USB extender cable was not broken in (everything else was).  I think it would be worthwhile to repeat this experiment in a little more detail once I get a somewhat better USB extender cable.  From what I had heard around the water cooler, a short S/PDIF should be better.  Also, the USB cable should be more immune to reflections than the S/PDIF.  Anyway, that was the theory I was testing, but initial results did not bear this out.
   
  Any ideas from other Head-Fi'ers about whether they have tried a similar experiment (and what results you got)?
   
  Thanks in advance,  -dB


----------



## xdanny

@dburna;
   
  I'll be doing a lot of tests in the next few days, when my bnc cable arrives. 
   
  So, in config #1 you had the hiFace plugged directly into the pc whereas in Config #2 you used an extension usb cable and had the hiFace plugged into your dac via an adapter.  Am I understanding this correctly?


----------



## dburna

Correct, XDanny, with one modification.  I use a MacBook, so I had the HiFace plugged into the MacBook in the first configuration, and in the second it was a USB extender cable (hard to find higher-end USB extender cables) -> HiFace -> male-to-male RCA adapter -> DAC.
   
  Will be very interested to hear what you find.  I am going to try a somewhat better (Belkin) USB extender cable and run this experiment again.
   
  Regards,  -dB


----------



## FauDrei

Might be wrong, but I suppose the 2nd config sounded crap because of impedance mismatch caused by RCA to RCA adapter. Impedance mismatch on such short length (and with hiFace's 5x higher than rated signal) must have caused havoc of reflections...
   
  Better on such "direct mechanical connection" would be 75Ω BNC male to BNC male adapter (better impedance match = fewer reflections) with 6-10dB 75Ω BNC attenuator (as per previous suggestions - hiFace SPDIF signal closer to prescribed values and faster "dying" reflections of lower amplitude).
   
  IMO, the advantages of better USB cable in same "direct" RCA to RCA hiFace connection would be minimal, if any.
   
  But let's see what will you find out...


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Better on such "direct mechanical connection" would be 75Ω BNC male to BNC male adapter (better impedance match = fewer reflections) with 6-10dB 75Ω BNC attenuator (as per previous suggestions - hiFace SPDIF signal closer to prescribed values and faster "dying" reflections of lower amplitude).
> 
> IMO, the advantages of better USB cable in same "direct" RCA to RCA hiFace connection would be minimal, if any.
> 
> But let's see what will you find out...


 
   
  I'd be curious about a direct BNC connection and USB extender vs. a S/Pdif cable with BNC as well. The Vardig is one of the best digitals out there, only the Sextet and a few other ultra pricey cables are better. I'm sure it's much better at getting near 75 Ohms than a basic RCA M-to-M.


----------



## dburna

Agreed with the previous couple of posters.  The RCA male-to-male is a bargain cheapie from Radio Shack.  It's just a stub, but who knows if it meets any sort of decent specs at all.  The USB extender was likewise the only one I could find in several stores -- finally had to resort to getting it from Office Depot (horrors!!).
   
  If all this sounds less-than-rigorous, it is.  Unfortunately, due to being downsized a couple months back, I wasn't going to commit to making this a pricey test -- I had to do this on-the-cheap.  And yes, the Varidig is pretty special as digital cables go.  According to Sergei, it's supposed to measure out at a true 75 ohms (believe that if you want to, but it *might* be close).  Since my DAC doesn't have a BNC, I didn't have that as a option for the HiFace.
   
  When things turn around, I may be looking to upgrade my AudioSector DAC, but I'll probably look at the Audio-gd DAC19, so even then....no BNC.
   
  Anyway, I was hoping vaguely that I would learn something conclusive from this test, but alas it was not to be.  Those that know better than I (and whose judgment I trust) seem to feel that the USB cable will not make too much difference across an asynch. USB interface, so you are probably right that a better USB cable will not improve the situation appreciably.  If so, the only way to better this test would be to find a better male-to-male RCA adapter....but where?
   
  Thanks to everyone who contributes their knowledge to this forum and this thread in particular.  I learn so much from reading your posts.
   
  Best,
   
  -dB (a unit measure of noise)


----------



## Pacha

If you want BNC on the DAC19 just ask Kingwa to replace the RCA input with a BNC one and he'll do it for you.

  
  Quote: 





dburna said:


> When things turn around, I may be looking to upgrade my AudioSector DAC, but I'll probably look at the Audio-gd DAC19, so even then....no BNC.


----------



## ccschua

hi regal, awaiting your pictures of the hiface mod. wonder if u had located a new ground instead of the one at the usb. Is it right to say the coaxial cable is grounded at the dac and so that ground is the better ground for the clock ?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





ccschua said:


> hi regal, awaiting your pictures of the hiface mod. wonder if u had located a new ground instead of the one at the usb. Is it right to say the coaxial cable is grounded at the dac and so that ground is the better ground for the clock ?


 

 No my case is 1/4" too short.  If you want to ground to the clock in the picture I show the upper right pad of the small clock is the groundpad,  personally its all one groundplane and I don't think it will affect SQ.
   
  There is a new thread in the DIY section for these questions,  go there.  I did find that the pulse transformer used on the Hiface doesn't have the proper 75 ohm impedance,  looking for one that does.  Also posted a quick fix to the high 2V SPDIF output.


----------



## Weez

Anyone here running Hiface without any problem on Windows XP 64x? No luck here : / In foobar2000 I get “error opening device” and in Winamp it just skips through all my tracks. I have although not tried everything yet. Just got home from work and I’m tired as hell. I will try some other things tomorrow.


----------



## FauDrei

I use hiFace on 7 x64.
   
  If you are trying to lock hiFace exclusively via KS or WASAPI, make sure that some other application does not already have such lock. Also, (re)setting output data format can help (16, 24 or 32 bits).


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> No my case is 1/4" too short.  If you want to ground to the clock in the picture I show the upper right pad of the small clock is the groundpad,  personally its all one groundplane and I don't think it will affect SQ.
> 
> There is a new thread in the DIY section for these questions,  go there.  I did find that the pulse transformer used on the Hiface doesn't have the proper 75 ohm impedance,  looking for one that does.  Also posted a quick fix to the high 2V SPDIF output.


 

 Hi Regal
   
  What length cables are you using with your mod?  Are you plugging the HiFace in directly?
   
  USG


----------



## regal

I use Win7x64.  I had to find a USB2.0 plug on my old computer,  you also have to use the new Foobar version and the Wasapi plugin,  then select the Hiface as the output device.  Also make sure you download and install the latest Hiface drivers.  I have had no issues,  actually more stable than my EMU.
   

  
  Quote: 





weez said:


> Anyone here running Hiface without any problem on Windows XP 64x? No luck here : / In foobar2000 I get “error opening device” and in Winamp it just skips through all my tracks. I have although not tried everything yet. Just got home from work and I’m tired as hell. I will try some other things tomorrow.


 




  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hi Regal
> 
> What length cables are you using with your mod?  Are you plugging the HiFace in directly?
> 
> USG


 


 Right now a 3 ft BNC-BNC Mogami.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> IAlso make sure you download and install the latest Hiface drivers.
> 
> Right now a 3 ft BNC-BNC Mogami.


 
   
  I have version 02/05/2010,1.0.3.141.  Is this the latest as far as you know?
   
  Thanks
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Thats what I have.   What about foobar I remember I had to upgrade to the latest version in order to get the Wasapi plugin to work?
   
  Does your foobar list the Hiface as an output device?
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I have version 02/05/2010,1.0.3.141.  Is this the latest as far as you know?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> Thats what I have.   What about foobar I remember I had to upgrade to the latest version in order to get the Wasapi plugin to work?
> 
> Does your foobar list the Hiface as an output device?


 

 I'm working fine w / XP,  just wanted to make sure I had the latest drivers.....  thanx


----------



## Weez

It was as simply as using a USB 2.0 controller card instead of a USB 3.0 one (even if it’s backwards compatible, and did discover the Hiface when I plugged it in the USB-port). I didn’t think about that when I got home from work; I was too excited and tired ;D Thanks anyway.


----------



## xdanny

It's been quiet around here lately...
   
  I've ordered my BNC cable about a week ago from kosmic.  The bad news is that particular cable is on back order from Japan and it might take another week or perhaps a bit more.  I'm dying to try the hiFace out, I might just order a cheapo BNC from monoprice to get it rolling...


----------



## Pacha

If you can, try using USB extension lead an BNC/BNC male adapter to see how it performs. There are few better than crappy ones, but there should be one or two better using a very cheap BNC cable instead.


----------



## johangrb

I can attest that adding a 10db attenuator seems to mellow out the sound from the Hiface without loss of detail.
   
  See: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/168901-rf-attenuators-jitter-reducers.html
   
  (I run Win 7 x64, Foobar 1.0.3, 50ms buffer -no problems).
   
  Anyone else tried it?


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

These attenuators exist only in BNC form I guess? So people with RCA hiFace like me are doomed again!


----------



## regal

No just do the Steve N mod,  it does the same thing (attenuates the output to SPDIF spec)
  Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> These attenuators exist only in BNC form I guess? So people with RCA hiFace like me are doomed again!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





johangrb said:


> I can attest that adding a 10db attenuator seems to mellow out the sound from the Hiface without loss of detail.
> 
> See: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/168901-rf-attenuators-jitter-reducers.html
> 
> ...


 
  Great, Johan - can you tell us what you are using - BNC cable to what DAC. When you say mellow out the sound, do you mean it took an edge off it?
  There'a another guy on Audiocircle who reports positive effects http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72468.msg797774#msg797774
   
  Hey, johan, pity you didn't post on that thread - i needed some support


----------



## johangrb

I'm using a Stereovox X2 BNC cable w the attenuator on the DAC side (running into a RCA convertor into my Ref5). (Bought form mini-circuits for $20). It did remove some grain -this is through my HD800's. My setup (see sig) is not harsh, but the attenuator definitely changed the sound for the better.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





johangrb said:


> I'm using a Stereovox X2 BNC cable w the attenuator on the DAC side (running into a RCA convertor into my Ref5). (Bought form mini-circuits for $20). It did remove some grain -this is through my HD800's. My setup (see sig) is not harsh, but the attenuator definitely changed the sound for the better.


 

 This is good news.
  I can't wait to try it out.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





johangrb said:


> I can attest that adding a *10db attenuator seems to mellow out the sound from the Hiface without loss of detail.*
> 
> See: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/168901-rf-attenuators-jitter-reducers.html
> 
> ...


 

 It's unclear what you mean.  How is the sound mellowed without loosing some of the high frequency information?  Please explain further.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> No just do the Steve N mod,  it does the same thing (attenuates the output to SPDIF spec)


 

 What's the Steve N mod Regal?  Is this for those of us with RCAs?

  
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Great, Johan - can you tell us what you are using - BNC cable to what DAC. When you say mellow out the sound, do you mean it *took an edge off it?*
> There'a another guy on Audiocircle who reports positive effects http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72468.msg797774#msg797774
> 
> Hey, johan, pity you didn't post on that thread - i needed some support


 

 I've been following this here as well as on DIY and DIYhifi and there doesn't seem to be a consensus on audibility and what there does seem to be a consensus on is that there are many variables that are involved and that these variables vary system by system....
   
  The other thing that bothers me is that we're now seem to be relying on subjective impressions of whether or not this mod does anything.  Even Jocko seemed enigmatic in his posts.  Maybe it's just me but this mod doesn't seem to have the same predictability as your battery mod.
   
  I don't know what, "took an edge off it" means to you? 
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> What's the Steve N mod Regal?  Is this for those of us with RCAs?


 

 yes and I posted a schematic in the DIY forum thread.  You guys are making a simple voltage divider into some kind of complex voodo,  it ain't rocket science.  All we are doing is putting the SPDIF out of the Hifice to SPDIF spec (its Vp-p is 4x what it should be.)


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I've been following this here as well as on DIY and DIYhifi and there doesn't seem to be a consensus on audibility and what there does seem to be a consensus on is that there are many variables that are involved and that these variables vary system by system....
> 
> The other thing that bothers me is that we're now seem to be relying on subjective impressions of whether or not this mod does anything.  Even Jocko seemed enigmatic in his posts.  Maybe it's just me but this mod doesn't seem to have the same predictability as your battery mod.
> 
> ...


 
  USG,
  I'll answer the bit that refers to me - yes, of course, there are many variables, that's why I recommend it as a cheap & interesting experiment for Hiface owners. If you followed those threads (god help you subjecting yourself to that torture ), you will have seen that the audibility of it never really got discussed as on DIYA it got stuck in an argument over technical aspects of jitter, etc (I'm not going to get into that here) & on DIYHifi, they are more interested in the e'ee aspects of it. If you look you will find that Joe_K, FMAK, myself, Johan & the HLl on AC have found it improved the sound - & we seem to b in agreement over how it improved. Jocko is always enigmatic (among other things ) so why would you reference him as the yardstick - he has said, yes try it, it may be the best thing ever? 
   
  About subjective impressions - this is what the modified Hiface is about - I have no measurements to prove that it's better than the stock but it is noticeably better. Could this be backed up with measurements? Tell me what measurements will prove A is better SOUNDING than B?
   
  Here's what I found in my listening. I was not using my own equipment & this may be considered the worst case scenario but it proved to me that the attenuator had a noticeably beneficial effect. I used a BNC stock Hiface with BNC/RCA adaptor & RCA to RCA SPDIF cable. I played a Nat King Cole song that I could hear some spit on the sibilant parts of his vocals & the massed violins also sounded a tiny bit harsh. With the attenuator in line these effects went away but the detail was still there i.e it didn't roll off the HF.
   
  Now, I'm just suggesting this as an experiment for people to try who own a Hiface so please take it in this way - not a proof of anything or a dogged view on my part - I've had enough with the fighting on other forums!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> yes and I posted a schematic in the DIY forum thread.  You guys are making a simple voltage divider into some kind of complex voodo,  it ain't rocket science.  All we are doing is putting the SPDIF out of the Hifice to SPDIF spec (its Vp-p is 4x what it should be.)


 
  Well yes, I agree it's not rocket science & it's not some kind of vodoo, so I too don't know why people are being so critical & in some cases, negative about this. If somebody came along & said i just got a new cable for $12 & it''s the best thing I ever heard would there be as much demand for "proof" as this? I bet more people would just go buy it & try it & consensus would be reached on it's merits or otherwise.
   
  No, it's not as simple as just cutting down the SPDIF signal to spec levels (some have argued that high signal level is beneficial & it is for some receivers). Yes it does this but as a side benefit it also cuts down the reflections that might be on the cable due to impedance anomalies. It cuts down the reflections at twice the amount that it cuts down the SPDIF signal so you can see that it is doubly effective at reducing reflections
   
  If you bought a very well designed cable which had a tight 75ohm cable tolerance (+/- 0.5ohm) & its BNC terminations (forget RCA) were also well speced, you would have a digital cable that didn't cause any of these reflections. It would be expensive!!  Reflections could still be generated when the signal hit the SPDIF receiver input stage which, by & large, isn't a well designed 75ohm termination. These reflections will be returned to the Hiface end (which isn't a well designed 75ohm termination) & some of this reflection will be bounced back to the receiver. If this returned reflected signal hits the receiver at the time when it is interpreting a 1 or 0 bit, it can effect the timing of that bit - this is called jitter. An attenuator should reduce these reflections to a negligible level - the experiment is to find which works best or whether one at both ends of the cable is best, etc
  
  Edit: Sorry, regal, I just realised your answer was in relation to Steve's mod but hopefully the information above is useful, nonetheless?


----------



## Zorlac

Quote: 





regal said:


> yes and I posted a schematic in the DIY forum thread.  You guys are making a simple voltage divider into some kind of complex voodo,  it ain't rocket science.  All we are doing is putting the SPDIF out of the Hifice to SPDIF spec (its Vp-p is 4x what it should be.)


 

 Have you reported this to Marco at M2Tech? I would think he would want to make sure this is fixed in future revisions of the hiFace and/or hiFace Evo.


----------



## mmerrill99

Marco , already knows this!


----------



## mmerrill99

BTW, Upstateguy (or anybody else), you can download the Nat King Cole WAV file ( But Beautiful.WAV) I used for the test & check out what I'm talking about http://www.4shared.com/dir/_nTfhC5b/Music.html


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Marco , already knows this!


 

 Marco must have known this all along, no?
   
  Is there anything we can do with our RCA HiFaces?
   
  Slim.a and Regal have said that your battery mod is day and night noticeable.  How noticeable is this attenuator mod?  How does it compare with your 5V mod?
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Marco must have known this all along, no?
> 
> Is there anything we can do with our RCA HiFaces?
> 
> ...


 
  Guys, please don't make of this something that it isn't - in my opinion the high SPDIF signal is not causing any harm to the sound whatsoever - in most cases it probably is helping the sound.
   
  Let me tell you why.  A lot of DACs sue the CS84** SPDIF receiver chip & this chip works much better with signals higher than the SPDIF spec of 0.5Vpp.
   
*So let's be clear about this & get it right - the attenuator sounds better (this hasn't yet been proven generally) ONLY BECAUSE it cuts down reflections NOT because it cuts down the overall SPDIF signal level. The high SPDIF signal is the reason we can do this & the reason why we can't use an attenuator on any other SPDIF transport that I know of. *
  
  As for the sound improvement using an attenuator - is it anything approaching the night & day improvement from the modified Hiface? - No, nothing like! I've tried to say what it is like above - it takes any edge off the sound that might be in existence - listen to the Nat King Cole track & if you discern a spittyness on his "S"s then this is what is smoothed out.
   
*So again, this is NOT a flaw with the Hiface, it can be exploited! If it didn't have a high signal we wouldn't be able to do this.*


----------



## mmerrill99

BTW, I see there have been something like 7 downloads of the Nat King Cole track - could people report back if they hear a spittyness in Nat's "S"'s or not? This is the area that the attenuator will address.
   
  PS I got a private mail that someone had a negative result with attenuators i.e the sound was more grainy! On investigation it seemed to be that they bought these attenuators from their local electrical store & they were an  unknown brand even.

 So it's important that the attenuators themselves are of a good manufacturing quality & tight tolerance. Otherwise you could be making matters worse, not better. Look for a datasheet or stick with the recommended ones - minicircuits


----------



## mmerrill99

Have a look here for a good discussion of SPDIF output design & Attenautor http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/67247-s-pdif-digital-output-5.html
   
  Note that this stuff needs to be done with SMD parts & tight layout to avoid stray inductance - that's why i suggest the attenuator plug to be a good approach - it is already tightly designed up to 2 GHz


----------



## Pacha

For me a little spittyness on the song. I cannot really say whether it is the recording or his way of singing or reflections problems, but there is a slight spittyness on the "love is funny or it's sad" at the beginning. Not a very hard pain though. I didn't notice that kind of problems on other songs of mine.
  Do you have other recordings that point that out?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





pacha said:


> For me a little spittyness on the song. I cannot really say whether it is the recording or his way of singing or reflections problems, but there is a slight spittyness on the "love is funny or it's sad" at the beginning. Not a very hard pain though. I didn't notice that kind of problems on other songs of mine.
> Do you have other recordings that point that out?


 

  I know it's not annoying or a big deal but that's the most obvious manifestation.  It could be considered subtle but when you hear it without this then you are happier, no?
   
  This is the issue that he attenuator gets rid of giving a smooth analogue sound to the song without any loss of detail. It also smooths out the violins some & I would say tightens up the 3D sound stage. I reckon it's pretty good bang for $12
   
  No, I don't have any other recordings that I want to upload - this is proof enough!


----------



## regal

Patricia Barber "Touch of Trash",  that really separates the R2R's from the lower quality S-D DAC's  as well as poor transports.
  
  Quote: 





pacha said:


> For me a little spittyness on the song. I cannot really say whether it is the recording or his way of singing or reflections problems, but there is a slight spittyness on the "love is funny or it's sad" at the beginning. Not a very hard pain though. I didn't notice that kind of problems on other songs of mine.
> Do you have other recordings that point that out?


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I know it's not annoying or a big deal but that's the most obvious manifestation.  It could be considered subtle but when you hear it without this then you are happier, no?
> 
> This is the issue that he attenuator gets rid of giving a smooth analogue sound to the song without any loss of detail. It also smooths out the violins some & I would say tightens up the 3D sound stage. I reckon it's pretty good bang for $12
> 
> No, I don't have any other recordings that I want to upload - this is proof enough!


 


 For sure, I didn't meant it's not a problem, just not a huge problem. If it could be improved, I wouldn't be reluctant to try that out.
   
  Well for $12 I guess I could give it a try. Which one would you recommand? Only BNC, isn't it? I'd have to go with a RCA to BNC adapter, it'd look like adapters cascade behind my DAC


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





regal said:


> Patricia Barber "Touch of Trash",  that really separates the R2R's from the lower quality S-D DAC's  as well as poor transports.


 


 I'm getting this song in lossless to try it out.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





pacha said:


> For sure, I didn't meant it's not a problem, just not a huge problem. If it could be improved, I wouldn't be reluctant to try that out.
> 
> Well for $12 I guess I could give it a try. Which one would you recommand? Only BNC, isn't it? I'd have to go with a RCA to BNC adapter, it'd look like adapters cascade behind my DAC


 
  I don't know if using a RCA to BNC adaptor won't defeat the purpose - introducing another impedance jump from 50 ohm to 75ohm. You are using RCA to RCA at the moment, I presume?
   
  In my testing I used a BNC output Hiface with an RCA SPDIF Canare cable. I used it with BNC/RCA adapator & heard the sibilance (let's call it that). When I put in the attenuator this sibilance ent away & the other positive benefits showed up as mentioned.
   
  I didn't try this with a RCA output Hiface as I would have then Hiface to RCA/BNC adaptor to BNC attenuator to BNC/RCA adpator to RCA SPDIF cable - don't know if it's worth it?  I presume this is what you would be involved in?


----------



## noinimod

Quote: 





regal said:


> Patricia Barber "Touch of Trash",  that really separates the R2R's from the lower quality S-D DAC's  as well as poor transports.


 
  Pretty good recording, although the double bass is turned up pretty hot


  
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> BTW, I see there have been something like 7 downloads of the Nat King Cole track - could people report back if they hear a spittyness in Nat's "S"'s or not? This is the area that the attenuator will address.


 
  No spittyness at my side, no weird sibilance. I'm using the hiface bnc -> audio gd dac9mk3.If anything, it's probably a slight fuzzy gruff in his voice that sounds like a fault of the recording


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





noinimod said:


> Pretty good recording, although the double bass is turned up pretty hot
> 
> 
> 
> No spittyness at my side, no weird sibilance. I'm using the hiface bnc -> audio gd dac9mk3.If anything, it's probably a slight fuzzy gruff in his voice that sounds like a fault of the recording


 
  So it just shows that different set-ups produce different sonic results. I don't think this gruffness is in the recording but I could be wrong - I don't have a set-up to listen to at the moment.


----------



## FauDrei

Not my preferred style, but excellent _piano_ & *forte* dynamics as well as sibilance scrutinizer... didn't know that one can hear that many different splashes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  ..."she's just a culture short of class"...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Not my preferred style, but excellent _piano_ & *forte* dynamics as well as sibilance scrutinizer... didn't know that one can hear that many different splashes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes but do you hear any edge or sibilance on the Nat track?


----------



## FauDrei

Oh, I was referring to regals suggestion - "Touch of Trash" track... extraordinary micros & macros there... I never considered tin can as a percussion instrument before... you can tell the track is mixed and not recorded together... different ambiance around different instruments/voice.
   
  No edge/sibilance whatsoever on Nat's wav. Just flowing. I got a feeling like strings were stolen from an old Hollywood soundtrack and "glued" together with bass and Nat's voice. Very pleasant listen.
   
  (both tracks: USB cable "vulgaris" → modded hiFace → Oyaide DB-510 → RE-1 → A-GD ACSS sharkwire → Roc → balanced dual starquad recabled HE-5)


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Oh, I was referring to regals suggestion - "Touch of Trash" track... extraordinary micros & macros there... I never considered tin can as a percussion instrument before... you can tell the track is mixed and not recorded together... different ambiance around different instruments/voice.
> 
> No edge/sibilance whatsoever on Nat's wav. Just flowing. I got a feeling like strings were stolen from an old Hollywood soundtrack and "glued" together with bass and Nat's voice. Very pleasant listen.
> 
> (both tracks: USB cable "vulgaris" → modded hiFace → Oyaide DB-510 → RE-1 → A-GD ACSS sharkwire → Roc → balanced dual starquad recabled HE-5)


 

 Cool, Faudrei, it looks like you've no need for one of these attenuators (but it probably wouldn't do any harm) - yes I kinda got that feeling about the strings


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I don't know if using a RCA to BNC adaptor won't defeat the purpose - introducing another impedance jump from 50 ohm to 75ohm. You are using RCA to RCA at the moment, I presume?
> 
> In my testing I used a BNC output Hiface with an RCA SPDIF Canare cable. I used it with BNC/RCA adapator & heard the sibilance (let's call it that). When I put in the attenuator this sibilance ent away & the other positive benefits showed up as mentioned.
> 
> I didn't try this with a RCA output Hiface as I would have then Hiface to RCA/BNC adaptor to BNC attenuator to BNC/RCA adpator to RCA SPDIF cable - don't know if it's worth it?  I presume this is what you would be involved in?


 


 I'm using the modded HiFace RCA to RCA/RCA male adapter, so it would mean putting in between a RCA/BNC adapter and the BNC attenuator and BNC/RCA adapter to the DAC.
  I know Van Den Hul makes true 75 ohms BNC/RCA adapter which seem good but not the reverse, so I don't know if a cheap RCA/BNC adapter would be good in the chain.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Yes but do you hear any edge or sibilance on the Nat track?


 

 No obvious sibliance or edge there, past what seems like was in the original recording.  You know, it's not a modern recording, the master tape is from 5/8/58.  (http://www.classictvinfo.com/NKCDiscography/) 
   
  [ laptop > RCA HiFace > 3ft. Dayton coax > North Star MkII > GS-1 > T-1 ]


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> No obvious sibliance or edge there, past what seems like was in the original recording.  You know, it's not a modern recording, the master tape is from 5/8/58.  (http://www.classictvinfo.com/NKCDiscography/)
> 
> [ laptop > RCA HiFace > 3ft. Dayton coax > North Star MkII > GS-1 > T-1 ]


 

 I know it's an old recording & I too thought that this might be in the original recording but when I put the attenuator in-line it all became analogue like so ......................? 
   
  This may be relevant to nonimod too, who heard a fuzzy gruffness & assumed it was te recording - I don't remember this with the attenuators in-line, just smooth silky Nat's voice 
   
  BTW, there has been 17 downloads of the track but only 4 people commenting on the sound - let's hear from the others - what does it sound like to you?


----------



## xdanny

^^
   
  John, good to see you posting here again!  I've also downloaded the track.  My BNC cable together with other cables I need are scheduled to arrive July 8 and I will finally be able to plug the hiFace into the mix.  I will report back...


----------



## mmerrill99

Thanks Danny,
  I think it's a good idea to have a recording that we can all state what we are hearing in it - gives a much better point of reference for discussing sonic differences!


----------



## mmerrill99

Speaking of old recordings - some of you (9 downloaders) already noticed the other track in that download folder "True Love Ways" - a Buddy Holly track from 1958 - I think this might be the 1967 stereo remixed version but the sound is stunning.
   
  I'm not sure if this was done in one take?


----------



## mmerrill99

22 downloads of this Nat King Cole track now! Guys, if your not going to use it to evaluate your system & post your evaluation here please don't download it  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It is meant as a tool for evaluating the effect (if any) of attenuators in your system not as a free download. I have now cut down the track so as it's no longer a full song!


----------



## noinimod

Man, the hiface is getting to me. Is there anyone else on windows 7, 64 bit getting random BSODs also? I'm using JRMC 15 on KS. WASAPI doesn't work, for some reason. I'm writing an email to Marco to ask him how to solve the problem.
  http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/noinimod/hifaceBSOD.jpg


----------



## FauDrei

Use KS.
   
  WASAPI has problems with seeking within track(s).


----------



## xdanny

I have an XP machine.  Once my cable gets here, I will have a friend over with his Win7 laptop to AB the two systems.
   
  Just to make sure I got this right (I will be using foobar exclusively):
   
  - download and install the corresponding drivers from m2tech
  - use KS for XP
  - I am not familiar with Win7, can I also use KS for it or do I have to use WASAPI?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## FauDrei

KS can be used on XP x32 and on 7 x64. It is most probably the best way to compare audio differences between two OSes because there is no WASAPI on XP.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> KS can be used on XP x32 and on 7 x64. It is most probably the best way to compare audio differences between two OSes because there is no WASAPI on XP.


 

 Any sonic advantage to KS in 7 over WASAPI?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Speaking of old recordings - some of you (9 downloaders) already noticed the other track in that download folder "True Love Ways" - a Buddy Holly track from 1958 - I think this might be the 1967 stereo remixed version but the sound is stunning.
> 
> I'm not sure if this was done in one take?


 

 Sounds like it could be a single take.......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But I'd like to ask a foobar question.  I was under the impression that the lower the buffer the better the sound...  one of the posters on the DIY forum mentioned that he didn't like ASIO because it needed a 300 ms buffer (to quiet clicks and pops) and he preferred the lowest buffer value ..... Do you know anything about that?
   
  Thanks
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Witchcraft and black magic questions should be kept on the Voodo forums,  not this thread IMO

  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> But I'd like to ask a foobar question.  I was under the impression that the lower the buffer the better the sound...  one of the posters on the DIY forum mentioned that he didn't like ASIO because it needed a 300 ms buffer (to quiet clicks and pops) and he preferred the lowest buffer value ..... Do you know anything about that?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> Witchcraft and black magic questions should be kept on the Voodo forums,  not this thread IMO


 

 I apologize for my obvious lack of knowledge, but just to be clear, you're saying that foobar buffer size has no effect on sound quality, is that correct?
   
  USG


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I apologize for my obvious lack of knowledge, but just to be clear, you're saying that foobar buffer size has no effect on sound quality, is that correct?


 
   
  Correct. It only affects the suspectibility to pops/clicks if buffer is too low, and the response time when you press play/pause (lower buffer = quicker response). No SQ to gain here.


----------



## Patu

Did anyone post this here yet?
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/USBface/USBfaceEN.htm
   
  Interesting.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> Did anyone post this here yet?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/USBface/USBfaceEN.htm
> 
> Interesting.


 

 I saw it Patu.  Do you know what the DSP-3 actually does for the transport?  Is this somehow better than the async. approach?
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Correct. It only affects the suspectibility to pops/clicks if buffer is too low, and the response time when you press play/pause (lower buffer = quicker response). No SQ to gain here.


 

 Thank you for the straight answer. 
   
  USG


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





patu said:


> Did anyone post this here yet?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/USBface/USBfaceEN.htm
> 
> Interesting.


 
_    " Now we are burning both our USBface and hiFace, once we finished burn in, we will compare their sound level.  If our USBface sound worst, we will kill it."_
   
  Funny, why do I have the feeling the USBface is going to stay alive after all...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Come on, I welcome new products but at least mix in a name without the word "face" in it.  So obvious...


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Funny, why do I have the feeling the USBface is going to stay alive after all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Could be worse like lowFace or faceHi.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> Could be worse like lowFace or faceHi.


 

 Or could be called Face-Off (if you remember that terrible movie, you'll get what I mean)


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Or could be called Face-Off (if you remember that terrible movie, you'll get what I mean)


 

 C'mon, Face-Off is one of the better movies of Nicolas Cage.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Or could be called Face-Off (if you remember that terrible movie, you'll get what I mean)


 

 I agree, it wasn't the greatest movie....
   
  Didn't the actress who played John Travolta's wife go on to play Pamela Landy in the Bourne trilogy?
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





patu said:


> C'mon, Face-Off is one of the better movies of Nicolas Cage.


 

 Well, yes, it's one of his better movies, QED it's pretty crap


----------



## regal

It stands for USB Inter-FACE (to me its a better name than Hi-Face).  
   
  One thing I don't like about it is the DSP chip inside.  It was proven a long time ago that these Asych upsamplers like the Audio Alchemy DTI can significantly reduce jitter if your transport has high jitter.   But if your tansport is low Jitter,  they add Jitter.   They are sort of jitter neutralizers where it can help but sometimes hurt.  I really don't see the reason for that chip in there,  unless it is being used in a completely new way that I am unfamiliar with.  I won't be trading in my modded Hi-Face.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Cool, Faudrei, it looks like you've no need for one of these attenuators (but it probably wouldn't do any harm)


 

 Just got back from vacation and a couple of Pasternack 6dB BNC attenuators were waiting for me... so I've warmed up my system (USB cable "vulgaris" → modded hiFace → Oyaide DB-510 → RE-1 → A-GD ACSS sharkwire → Roc → balanced dual starquad recabled HE-5) and listened for a while to "get back into the sound".
   
  Then I've introduced one attenuator at DAC's end of DB-510 and listened...
   
  After that I've added second attenuator at hiFace's end of digital cable and listened again...
   
  Not to start any kind of debate or try to explain why, also knowing it is too soon to draw any (firm) conclusions I would just mention that everybody who owns hiFace (modded or not) should consider one or a pair of similar attenuators and try them with his preferred digital cable. Definitely worth $35 (2x attenuators + worldwide delivery) and, system depending, perhaps good deal more than that.
   
  It isn't "edge" or "sibilance" as JKeny described attenuators in his system - with my gear it's like a set of good polarized glasses on a bright sunny day - without them you still have all the information, but with them nothing glares your view... ambiance and details that were there before are portrayed clearer, perceived with less effort yet they by no mean Benchmark style scream for your attention.
   
  IV movement of Dvořák's 9th raised all the hair on my body like never before...
   
  P.S.
  Those neverending SPDIF improvements and tweaks just demonstrate how digital audio absolutely needs new transport protocol/standard.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Just got back from vacation and a couple of Pasternack 6dB BNC attenuators were waiting for me... so I've warmed up my system (USB cable "vulgaris" → modded hiFace → Oyaide DB-510 → RE-1 → A-GD ACSS sharkwire → Roc → balanced dual starquad recabled HE-5) and listened for a while to "get back into the sound".
> 
> Then I've introduced one attenuator at DAC's end of DB-510 and listened...
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent, Faudrei, when you get a chance & have done some more listening you might like to post what value attenuators you used & the difference, if any, between both attenuators at one end Vs an attenuator at each end of the cable. Is your Hiface BNC & your DAC input BNC?
   
  What you are hearing is a reduction in the jitter induced by reflections created in the cable. These reflections arise because of impedance mismatches that the SPDIF signal encounters on it's journey to your DAC receiver chip.
   
  I believe that this might make cheap cables sound as good as expensive ones! Do you have another cable other than the Oyaide DB510 to experiment with?
   
  I don't totally agree with your last point, although I do think SPDIF is not a great method of transporting digital audio. But I2S also has to be carefully implemented to avoid issues & possibly just as difficult as SPDIF. Really, it comes down to care with implementation.
   
  But these attenuators cure a lot of the badly terminated implementation issues that plague nearly all our digital equipment. The great thing is we can use them with the Hiface & I've been told that certain other pieces of equipment also outputs a high SPDIF signal which means these attenuators could also be used there too ( some Arcam transports & some soundcards).
   
  EDIT: Just a note, I would be happier with the minicircuits attenuators - they have datasheets with them & work out to 2GHz. The Pasternak one you linked to are only good to 1GHz & I didn't find a datasheet for them. Also if the female end has a white ring of plastic insulation inside the ground shield ring then it's a 50 ohm end rather than 75 ohm one. I've seen this on Huber & Suhner 75 ohm attenuators which had this white plastic ring - I emailed H & S about this.
   
  Same price for both!


----------



## punk_guy182

@FauDrei
  Damn! That's pretty good news.
  I wonder if there could be a benefit of using let's say 2 times 5dB attenuators instead of just one. If the job adds there should be no difference in terms of SQ.
   
  @Joseph K
  What do you think?


----------



## xdanny

I have finally been able to hook everything up and take the hiFace for a spin!  Here are some of my impressions, in case anyone is interested.
   
  I own the modded version, jkeny was kind enough to help me with it - I have neither the tools nor the time and knowledge so for me it worked out great. 
   
  The black case containing the batteries and the hiFace itself is well put together and looks very professional.  Honestly, I cannot imagine it looking any better without spending a fortune. 
   
  My equipment:
  - FLAC files, 16 and 24 bit, 44, 48, 88 and 92 kHz
  - WinXP with foobar, KS
  - 6 foot regular USB extension cable to the hiFace
  - Oyaide DB510 BNC from the hiFace to a Bryston BDA-1 DAC w/BNC
  - Odyssey Candela preamp
  - dbx 223 XL crossover
  - Pass Labs X350.5 amp
  - Monitor Audio GR20 speakers
  - Velodyne subwoofer
   
  A few things to consider:
  - I have not had a chance to see what a stock hiFace sounds like, so I cannot provide a comparison between the modded and unmodded versions. 
  - A few days ago I upgraded my amp from the X250.5 to an X350.5
  - The Oyaide is the only BNC cable I have
   
  Also, please keep in mind  the system also sounded really good before I got the hiFace, mainly because of  the Bryston BDA-1 DAC which is considered, rightfully so, one of the best out there.
   
  I mainly tested it with songs which I am really familiar with in terms of the instrumentation and voice inflections and modulations.  Tori Amos' "Bells For Her" is one such song.   What I heard first was a richness of the sound that was not as noticeable before, almost like vinyl with a good phono stage.  Nothing was overemphasized, and no trace of sibilance at least to my ears.  I also tested jkeny's "But Beautiful" by NKC and again no trace of sibilance that I could hear.  The bass appeared a bit tighter although I can't yet figure it out exactly;  midrange and highs sounded very clean and precise.  The level of detail has increased, which I absolutely love.  You can literally hear when the singer's lips separate before he/she even says anything and the same level of detail can also be found in the instruments.  Another improvement I noticed and one of my friends also commented on was the soundstage, it seems even more defined than before.  The voice is dead centered between the two speakers with the instruments flanking it. 
   
  So far I logged in about 6 hours of listening.  As I listen more, my opinions may change and I will post accordingly.
   
  So was it worth it you ask?  Absolutely!  Even if the sound had remained the same as before, just the peace of mind that I have a portable device which enables me to get a clean digital signal to my DAC would have been a huge deal...
   
  Thanks to jkeny for a job well done and to all of you who contribute to this thread!!


----------



## mmerrill99

Thanks Danny, much appreciate your words. It's always great to hear how somebody enjoys your work - even if it is a modification of an existing product & not the design of the product to begin with 
   
  You probably should have posted this on the other thread but seeing as you have posted here, it's perhaps time to look into the attenuators - I think you will find them a sonic upgrade!


----------



## xdanny

John, could you post a link to that thread?
   
  I am definitely interested in the attenuators, where do I start???


----------



## wushuliu

So what recourse is there for those w/ RCAs and not BNC as far as attenuation?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> John, could you post a link to that thread?
> 
> I am definitely interested in the attenuators, where do I start???


 

 http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/498151/m2tech-hiface-mods-and-discussions#post_6725332

  
  Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> So what recourse is there for those w/ RCAs and not BNC as far as attenuation?


 
  You would need to use a BNC/RCA adaptor & I'm not sure how much this might affect the benefit of the attenuators. I suspect the benefits will still be evident!


----------



## audioengr

Changing to a 1.5-2m length digital cable would likely have the same effect, assuming that reflections are the problem.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## Dragon2010

This USBface is 24/96 input or 24/192input?


----------



## Dragon2010

Quote: 





patu said:


> Did anyone post this here yet?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/USBface/USBfaceEN.htm
> 
> Interesting.


 

 This USBface input is support 24/96 or 24/192?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> Changing to a 1.5-2m length digital cable would likely have the same effect, assuming that reflections are the problem.
> 
> Steve N.
> Empirical Audio


 
  Ah, yes the cable length chosen so as reflections hopefully arrive at the DAC in between the transition decision stages. I reckon it's probably better to try getting rid of the reflections rather than try to manipulate their arrival time at the DAC. Anyway, what's the price of buying a quality cable of 1.5 - 2m ? I doubt its' anything like the price of two attenuators.


----------



## audioengr

A good S/PDIF cable is at least $500 IME.  It's needed anyway, even with the attenuators, in order to minimize skin-effect, dispersion and losses that slow and move the edges.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## punk_guy182

I'm never going to spend that kind of money only for an S/PDIF cable. This is quite ridiculous. I got the Oyaide DB-510 and this is as far as I will go. I'd rather put my money somewhere else in the audio chain.


----------



## wushuliu

I got my Hiface yesterday. This is my forst foray into computer-based music server. Previously I've used media players like WDTV and Popcorn A-200 with toslink and coax out respectively. I wanted to hear if a laptop/hiface combo would offer better sound quality as a digital transport.
   
  I listened for a few hours with several permutations:
   
  1) 3M Belkin USB -> Hiface->RCA-RCA Adapter-> AD1865-based DIY DAC
  2) Hiface -> 4ft. Neotech PCOCC Coaxial -> DAC
   
  Software
   
  1) 1.03 Foobar w/WASAPI
  2) .8.3 Foobar w/ KS
   
  My laptop runs Vista
   
  First off the overall the sound quality is indeed superior to the media players I have used. No question. Hiface is clean, clear, and quiet.
   
  I preferred what I heard using the long Belkin USB. Tones were warmer, highs very slightly recessed, but very very quiet background. With the Neotech Coax the sound was more neutral/cool, more dynamic, a teeny bit splashy on the top end but overall I'd say neutral. Now I obviously did not wait for any burn-in, this is just fresh out the box impressions. Also, I would not be surprised if the coax was the more accurate presentation due to recent component changes in my set-up. I can see how some may find the Hiface forward and bright, but I'll side with previous comments that this may have more to do with other components. Most retail speakers for instance tend to have a hotter top end and this could be a not so great match for the Hiface. I think the Hiface gives a straight neutral presentation. My DIY speakers were designed with a pretty flat response and the Hi-face sounded just a hair splashy, but not forward, and I am very sensitive to bright/forward sound. Drives me nuts. If indeed it does break-in it would probably be perfect.
   
  The soundstage was fine. I would not describe it as closed or narrow. I think 'intimate' is the word I would use to describe what I heard.
   
  Imaging is off the hook/chain/rope/whatever
  Very good detail retrieval
   
  Software
   
  I found the 8.3 w/ KS to not sound as good as the 1.03 w/ WASAPI. But I am very
  new to the software side of things and I probably missed some optimizations along the way.
  WASAPI sounds really, really good.
   
  I think the Hiface is very much an 'audiophile' product. What I hear caters to that delicate, precise
  balance of transparency and detail. The Hiface I think will let you know if you have any weak links
  in the chain.
   
   
  That said, I am trying to order the Audio-gd DSP-3. That thing looks tight!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> A good S/PDIF cable is at least $500 IME.  It's needed anyway, even with the attenuators, in order to minimize skin-effect, dispersion and losses that slow and move the edges.
> 
> Steve N.
> Empirical Audio


 

 Can you say something about each of these & say how they are minimised in a quality cable & if minimising their effects is worth 30 times the cost of an attenuator?


----------



## wushuliu

Would a 3.3v regulated supply like these be an improvement over the stock hiface?
   
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=114
   
http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/796
   
  I know it would be best to get the lithium LiFe batteries, charger, etc. but that's going to come more money (if via jkeny) and more time (if i diy) than I have right now. If either of those only get me halfway there as far increase in sound quality i'll be happy...


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> Would a 3.3v regulated supply like these be an improvement over the stock hiface?
> 
> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=114
> 
> ...


 
  To supply this 3.3V to the Hiface, you need to do the DIY bit that isolates the clock supply & clock handling supplies - once you've done this you can use any supply you want (the batteries are the best I've heard) but this is the bit that you don't have the time to do so you can't use the 3.3V supply unless you first do this DIY first! Circular answer I know!


----------



## ccschua

From my experience, battery mod polish up the slight digital edginess and slightly improves on most other sound elements that makes a difference.


----------



## regal

No offense but with a resolving  dac- amp and headphones the improvement is anything but slight
  Quote: 





ccschua said:


> From my experience, battery mod polish up the slight digital edginess and slightly improves on most other sound elements that makes a difference.


----------



## ccschua

OK. The improvement is obvious, my mileage might be different but it does improve.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





ccschua said:


> OK. The improvement is obvious, my mileage might be different but it does improve.


 


 Remember when a lot of us (myself included) thought that all transports sounded the same?  I guess this is why I find the difference so dramatic.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





ccschua said:


> From my experience, battery mod polish up the slight digital edginess and slightly improves on most other sound elements that makes a difference.


 

 I agree with Regal, the mod hugely improves the sound with the right equipment. Your description sounds to me how I would describe the improvement with the attenuators!


----------



## audioengr

Quote: 





> Can you say something about each of these & say how they are minimised in a quality cable & if minimising their effects is worth 30 times the cost of an attenuator?


 
   

 Skin-effect - mostly a function of the conductor diameter
 Losses and Dispersion - a function of the dielectric - teflon is good, expanded Teflon is better, air is even better, vacuum is best
 Impedance matching - as close to 75 ohms as possible
 Conductor metallurgy - jumbled crystal lattice causes lots of micro-reflections.  Good cables use pure perfect crystal silver or gold
 Conductor Geometry - Correct geometry rejects common-mode noise and RF
   
  This is needed in ADDITION to the attenuator, not to replace it.  The problem is that the signal is out of spec.
   
  This is just like any other claim someone makes.  Unless you have heard a really good S/PDIF cable, most just dont get it and refuse to believe it.  BTW, there are plenty of $500 cables out there that are junk too.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> This is just like any other claim someone makes.  Unless you have heard a really good S/PDIF cable, most just dont get it and refuse to believe it.  BTW, there are plenty of $500 cables out there that are junk too.
> Steve N.
> Empirical Audio


 

 My big question is how the Hiface with a high quality S/Pdif cable like a Vardig would compare to USB going straight into an asych capable DAC like the North Star USB DAC 32. With two computers it would be possible to do a very fast A/B comparison.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> My big question is how the Hiface with a high quality S/Pdif cable like a Vardig would compare to USB going straight into an asych capable DAC like the North Star USB DAC 32. With two computers it would be possible to do a very fast A/B comparison.


 


 I don't think the Northstar has BNC input does it?


----------



## regal

A vacuum or air dielectric 75 ohm cable?   Get real,  completly impractical and downright rediculous.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





audioengr said:


> Skin-effect - mostly a function of the conductor diameter
> Losses and Dispersion - a function of the dielectric - teflon is good, expanded Teflon is better, air is even better, vacuum is best
> Impedance matching - as close to 75 ohms as possible
> Conductor metallurgy - jumbled crystal lattice causes lots of micro-reflections.  Good cables use pure perfect crystal silver or gold
> ...


----------



## DaveBSC

No, I don't think any of the currently available DACs with asynch USB built in also have BNC inputs. I wish more DACs had them. M2Tech's Young DAC will have both BNC and asynch USB, but I don't think its up to the level of the North Star, and the Vaughan costs as much as a Weiss DAC202!


----------



## regal

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> No, I don't think any of the currently available DACs with asynch USB built in also have BNC inputs. I wish more DACs had them. M2Tech's Young DAC will have both BNC and asynch USB, but I don't think its up to the level of the North Star, and the Vaughan costs as much as a Weiss DAC202!


 


 The specifically don't because they don't want you to compare their USB implementation to a quality conventional transport


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





regal said:


> The specifically don't because they don't want you to compare their USB implementation to a quality conventional transport


 

 I don't think there's some nefarious plot, I just think that they expect you to either use AES/EBU which any decent transport will have, or the I2S input if you have a North Star transport. BNC inputs on DACs just aren't all that common.


----------



## digger945

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I don't think there's some nefarious plot, I just think that they expect you to either use AES/EBU which any decent transport will have, or the I2S input if you have a North Star transport. BNC inputs on DACs just aren't all that common.


 


 It would be great if there was a formal format for I2S.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





digger945 said:


> It would be great if there was a formal format for I2S.


 

 Yeah, no kidding. Mostly I2S is either some type of DIN format or RJ-45 based. PS Audio's idea to use HDMI is a clever one, but of course it only works with the PWT/PWD or the W4S DACs. If everybody could just agree to pick a connector and stick with it, it would make things a hell of a lot easier.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> Skin-effect - mostly a function of the conductor diameter
> Losses and Dispersion - a function of the dielectric - teflon is good, expanded Teflon is better, air is even better, vacuum is best
> Impedance matching - as close to 75 ohms as possible
> Conductor metallurgy - jumbled crystal lattice causes lots of micro-reflections.  Good cables use pure perfect crystal silver or gold
> ...


 
  I was hoping you might say what effect each of these had on the SPDIF signal - I already knew what most meant just wasn't sure about their effects in digital signalling so let's take each one:
  - skin effect - this is where the HF signal stays mostly in the outer layer of the wire. How is this a problem in digital signals? I can understand how it might be a problem at audio freqs where LF rides inside the wire & HF on the outside - different characteristics/speed?  
  - losses aren't that significant in the length of cables we are using in SPDIF, are they?
  - dispersion - what do you mean here?
  - impedance tolerance i.e staying as close to the 75 ohm as possible is always good but this can be affected by a kink in the cable or somebody standing on it, no? So even with the best cable if not treated carefully you can lose this attribute. Does the attenuator not ameliorate these impedance mismatches both in the cable & at the connectors & through to the DAC & to the transport i.e anywhere along the signal path?
  - metallurgy - now we might be getting into bybee territory? Can these micro-reflections be demonstrated/measured or where does this notion come from?
  - common mode noise - I thought we were talking about coaxial SPDIF cables & not differential ones?


----------



## Dalamar

Quote: 





audioengr said:


> This is just like any other claim someone makes.  Unless you have heard a really good S/PDIF cable, most just dont get it and refuse to believe it.  BTW, there are plenty of $500 cables out there that are junk too.
> 
> Steve N.
> Empirical Audio


 

 Mr Snake Oil Salesman, are you sure you don't want to sell us on some blackbodies or $500,000 solid gold/platinum/insert other absurdly expensive B.S. cables while you're here?


----------



## audioengr

Dalamar - When you are ready to learn something, let me know.  I was doing this long before you were born.
   
  Steve N.


----------



## leeperry

the main issue w/ $500 interconnects is to know where your  money is? you're paying for R&D I presume? Do these half-grand cable sellers use every pricey measurements package like AP? Why does a mere copper cable cost more than solid gold, and possibly platinum?
   
  Do they have anything to backup that their "supergood" cables measure better than the competition? Or should we believe them on good faith? Is pricetag a valid point of reference?
   
  And I'd hate to sound personal, but on your site you're selling $1300 power cables: http://www.empiricalaudio.com/cables/power-cables
   
  for that kind of money, you can get a much bigger improvement than what a power cable will ever be able to do for you IMVHO.
   
  Anyway, each to his one...as we say in France: "_as long as there'll be someone to buy it, there'll be someone to sell it_".


----------



## h.rav

has anyone read this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ ?


----------



## leeperry

h.rav said:


> has anyone read this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ ?


 

 What truly sucks is that Mr Lavry is always right, hah. One of the only persons I fully trust in the audio world.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





h.rav said:


> has anyone read this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ ?


 

 Thanks for the link - I went to Lavry's site & registered on the forum to read the technical papers - so far great reading!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Should be an interesting read.


----------



## Lenni

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> And I'd hate to sound personal, but on your site you're selling $1300 power cables: http://www.empiricalaudio.com/cables/power-cables
> 
> for that kind of money, you can get a much bigger improvement than what a power cable will ever be able to do for you IMVHO.
> 
> Anyway, each to his one...as we say in France: "_as long as there'll be someone to buy it, there'll be someone to sell it_".


 

 I'd hate to sound personal either, but your logical thinking is not where it has. it would make sense if the person involved was not happy with their system, then off course the logical thing would be to find a system their happy with first. but if their already happy with what they got I don't see what is wrong with trying to improve even more. they don't want to buy new speakers, amp, etc., they're already happy with it, they just want to hopefully get even more than what they already like. does it make sense?
   
  let's say you buy a car, and you like the car. it drives well, it performs great, it makes you feel good, the girls...oh yeah - you're happy with the car. then, for example, you decide to change the car exhaust system to a "supposedly" better one just to maybe get even a better performance. but someone tells you, "you'd be better off buying a new car than spending on a new exhaust". doesn't make sense, and borders on the offensive.
   
  just wanted to point that out.


----------



## wushuliu

Yeah, seriously, do people not have other hobbies? Because, yeah, the word 'aftermarket' doesn't just apply to audio and I sure would love to see the 'discussion' with an auto enthusiast about whether those expensive tires make a 'difference'...
   

  
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> I'd hate to sound personal either, but your logical thinking is not where it has. it would make sense if the person involved was not happy with their system, then off course the logical thing would be to find a system their happy with first. but if their already happy with what they got I don't see what is wrong with trying to improve even more. they don't want to buy new speakers, amp, etc., they're already happy with it, they just want to hopefully get even more than what they already like. does it make sense?
> 
> let's say you buy a car, and you like the car. it drives well, it performs great, it makes you feel good, the girls...oh yeah - you're happy with the car. then, for example, you decide to change the car exhaust system to a "supposedly" better one just to maybe get even a better performance. but someone tells you, "you'd be better off buying a new car than spending on a new exhaust". doesn't make sense, and borders on the offensive.
> 
> just wanted to point that out.


----------



## leeperry

lenni said:


> let's say you buy a car, and you like the car. it drives well, it performs great, it makes you feel good, the girls...oh yeah - you're happy with the car. then, for example, you decide to change the car exhaust system to a "supposedly" better one just to maybe get even a better performance. but someone tells you, "you'd be better off buying a new car than spending on a new exhaust". doesn't make sense, and borders on the offensive.


 

 hah! so we're talking about ppl who are so bored w/ their money that they are willing to shell out $1.3K on a power cable? even though the seller is honest and says on his webpage: "_We are not privy to the technology in the Top Fuel, we just know that it works_."
   
  The seller doesn't even need to come up w/ technical fluff, as he "_knows that it works_"....well, it'd better damn work for $1.3K 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  So OK, we're talking about the guy who's got the most expensive DAC/amp on the planet, platinum IC's, a MDR-R10 and all his little brothers(T1/HD800/O2/etc)...and that guy is greatly upset coz the SQ is not up to his expectations
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So of course he also bought a serious power conditioner, but he's so sure that the weak link is indeed the cable between his power conditioner and his source...that he has to buy a $1.3K power cable to find out what he's been missing all along, that's the only solution to his problem. I fully get it now, this cable is aimed at mentally dumb OCD'ed millionaires


----------



## wushuliu

Mmmm, no. I think it's called a hobby and it's also called Steve charges what he thinks represents the time and effort he put into it. Whether or not it performs as advertised is unrelated to the question of cost. If you have an issue with getting what you pay for then I assume you're living off-grid in the mountains texting from the outhouse.
   
  Don't call people mentally dumb for indulging in their interest/hobby/passion whether you consider their decision prudent or not.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> hah! so we're talking about ppl who are so bored w/ their money that they are willing to shell out $1.3K on a power cable? even though the seller is honest and says on his webpage: "_We are not privy to the technology in the Top Fuel, we just know that it works_."
> 
> The seller doesn't even need to come up w/ technical fluff, as he "_knows that it works_"....well, it'd better damn work for $1.3K
> 
> ...


----------



## Lenni

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> My big question is how the Hiface with a high quality S/Pdif cable like a Vardig would compare to USB going straight into an asych capable DAC like the North Star USB DAC 32. With two computers it would be possible to do a very fast A/B comparison.


 

 I've been wondering about something like that myself for awhile.
  DaveBSC, do you have the HiFace, and do you use the pc as a souce? if the answer to the first question is no, then I'd highly reccomends the HiFace. I've realised how good really is once I stopped using it.
   
  I bought a new pc. it came with windows 7, and AMD chip based. the HiFace doesn't work with it, and have to wait for a replacement. instead of disconnecting and moving everything I decided to use the usb cable to connect the pc to the dac. a couple of days passed, but I wasn't happy with the sound; the sense of frustration didn't want to let go. in the end I moved everything back and brought the laptop to use the HiFace with. it's been a couple day since, and my sense of frustration has disappeared , and am much more enjoying the sound.
   
  I can honestly say the HiFace is the reason I have not completely abandoned using the pc as a source instead of a cdp. if the EVO turn out to be an improvement in performance over the HiFace, I'm gonna be a happy guy.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I've been wondering about something like that myself for awhile.  DaveBSC, do you have the HiFace, and do you use the pc as a souce? if the answer to the first question is no, then I'd highly reccomends the HiFace. I've realised how good really is once I stopped using it.


 

 No, at this point I'm still using a sound card with S/Pdif out into my DAC. Before springing for anything I want to see what the production Hiface EVO is like, and whether Jkeny can mod it in much the same fashion as the original. A (mostly) battery powered Hiface with BNC, RCA, and AES output has a lot more appeal for me. The big question for me though is what ultimately provides the best sound out of a PC? 1. Lynx card > AES > DAC, 2. USB > Asynch DAC (Ayre, North Star, etc.) 3. Modified Hiface > BNC or AES > DAC.


----------



## xdanny

XP users, I have a quick question:
   
  In KS mode, latest foobar version:  when I cycle through songs, for example play one, then hit "next" and so on I noticed that there is something like a 20 second (maybe more) lag until the next song plays IF I go from a 16 bit format to a 24 bit format.  Also, my dac locks and stays on the 44khz sample rate.
   
  However, it does not do it if I first hit "stop" then "next".  The dac also shows the correct sample rates.
   
  Anyone knows what's going on, and is there a fix?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## MikoLayer

Quote: 





h.rav said:


> has anyone read this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ ?


 

 that was an awfully good read, that's all I have to day. thx!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





h.rav said:


> has anyone read this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ ?


 
   
   
  Read the whole thread.  Good perspective.  Thanks.
   
  USG


----------



## audioengr

Quote: 





> the word 'aftermarket' doesn't just apply to audio


 
   
  Actually, it does.  It's called the modding business, which I dont do anymore incidently.  It was a great learning experience to see all of the other Mfgrs products and what they did right and wrong.  Also, lots of experimenting with different components, particularly capacitors was very valuable.  Very few designers do this.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## audioengr

Quote: 





> Regal wrote: A vacuum or air dielectric 75 ohm cable?   Get real,  completly impractical and downright rediculous.


 
   
  Really?  It just so happens that my interconnects are and have always been air dielectric.  Its patented.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## audioengr

Quote: 





> the main issue w/ $500 interconnects is to know where your  money is? you're paying for R&D I presume? Do these half-grand cable sellers use every pricey measurements package like AP? Why does a mere copper cable cost more than solid gold, and possibly platinum?


 
   
  I cant speak for others cables, but my Bitmeister uses pure 5-nines perfect crystal silver and is hand-made using air and expanded teflon dielectrics.  Double-shielded with pure copper direct gold-plated connectors.  No brass here.  It takes 2 days to make one of them.  Very labor intensive.  Then there is the cost of the patent, which is about $15K out of my pocket plus my time.  It was voted by reviewers of Positive-Feedback as the best commercially available digital cable.
   
  If you think you can make a better one, go for it.  I've had all versions of Steath Varidig cables here BTW.
   
   
  Quote: 





> And I'd hate to sound personal, but on your site you're selling $1300 power cables: http://www.empiricalaudio.com/cables/power-cables


 
   
  I previously made my own power cables, and they were pretty good, but when my good friend showed me his design, I was blown away.  Therefore, I buy these from him and sell them under my brand name.  This is my only product like this.  I compared this power cable at CES in 2005 to several other cables, including Kimber, Acoustic Zen, Audience and Clarity as well as my own designs.  All of these are in the same price range or more.  It was so much better than any of them that I had to stop building cables myself and buy this one and resell it.  I bought several of these that I use in my own system and at shows.  It's the best I have heard.  It was evidently designed by a retired university professor and my friend licensed the design from him.
   
  If you dont hear differences in power cords, your system is not very resolving IME.
   
  Steve N.
  Empirical Audio


----------



## xnor

And what are you buying those cables for? 50 bucks?


----------



## h.rav

After reading the thread that I posted, do you guys still bother reading this guy's (audioengr) posts?


----------



## Dalamar

Quote: 





h.rav said:


> After reading the thread that I posted, do you guys still bother reading this guy's (audioengr) posts?


 

 After reading that, I started wondering why he hasn't been banned.
   
  He's full of it.


----------



## leeperry

h.rav said:


> After reading the thread that I posted, do you guys still bother reading this guy's (audioengr) posts?


 

 Yes, I definitely do! They work as a sanity check for me, and I like the " _your system is not very resolving_" part...as it's meant to make you feel dumb and vulnerable. I still rest my case that $1.3K can be much better invested than in some power cable...but we're not in the MOT thread, and I'm afraid this is getting terribly OT. Some ppl like to buy very pricey cables, it's great that some other ppl are here to help them...they basically run an OCD charity business.


----------



## mmerrill99




----------



## Lenni

Quote:


leeperry said:


> Yes, I definitely do! They work as a sanity check for me, and I like the " _your system is not very resolving_" part...as it's meant to make you feel dumb and vulnerable. I still rest my case that $1.3K can be much better invested than in some power cable...but we're not in the MOT thread, and I'm afraid this is getting terribly OT. Some ppl like to buy very pricey cables, it's great that some other ppl are here to help them...they basically run an OCD charity business.


 
   

   
  I totally agree with you. spending money on those power cables in your case would be a total waste of money. much better spent in something else... like... this
   
  (sorry but could not resist)


----------



## MikoLayer

well sort of, not necessarily giving him much credibility though...


----------



## leeperry

lenni said:


> spending money on those power cables in your case would be a total waste of money. much better spent in something else... like... this
> 
> (sorry but could not resist)


 
   
  Wow, I have to admit that you are quite an entertainer mister! Tbh, if I had $1300 to burn right now...I just wouldn't know what to buy?! The only phone that would top the cd3k in my SONY fanboy head is the R10, which usually goes for ±$7000...so I guess I would put that money on a bank account w/ a high interest, and wait for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  BTW, I see pricey cables got their supporters


----------



## RHMMMM

Regarding the HiFace, sorry if this is a dumb question, but...

 it sounds like it can be used on the mac with iTunes with no problem as long as the HiFace is chosen as the interface in the audio control panel, correct? (a "system-wide setting," right?)

 On a PC, from what I can gather, you have to use an audio program like foobar and configure it to output thru the HiFace, so it's more of an "application-specific setting" on the PC? What I'm getting at is...is it possible to make this thing work at it's optimum configuration on a PC using iTunes? 

 Thanks


----------



## MikoLayer

wasn't too fond of CD3000s back when i had them but definitely would like to try the R10s one day 
  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Wow, I have to admit that you are quite an entertainer mister! Tbh, if I had $1300 to burn right now...I just wouldn't know what to buy?! The only phone that would top the cd3k in my SONY fanboy head is the R10, which usually goes for ±$7000...so I guess I would put that money on a bank account w/ a high interest, and wait for a while
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





rhmmmm said:


> ...
> On a PC, from what I can gather, you have to use an audio program like foobar and configure it to output thru the HiFace, so it's more of an "application-specific setting" on the PC? What I'm getting at is...is it possible to make this thing work at it's optimum configuration on a PC using iTunes?


 
   
  It works in all programs in Windows as a standard Windows sound device, but foobar is better when using bitperfect ASIO, kernel streaming or WASAPI.


----------



## RHMMMM

Quote:  





> It works in all programs in Windows as a standard Windows sound device, but foobar is better when using bitperfect ASIO, kernel streaming or WASAPI.


 

 Right, so it looks like to use the bitperfect functionality on a PC, I have to use foobar or MediaMonkey with a plugin? 
   
  My original concern is that my computer isn't in the same room as my audio system.  I currently have both a Sonos and an Airport Express, but am not 100% happy with their performance.  Rather than get the Sonos modded, I was considering a nice network player like a Linn, waiting for the PS Audio PerfectWave Bridge module or lastly, going the USB asynchronous DAC route for 24/192 support until I came upon these asynchronous converters.  I went ahead and preordered the M2Tech HiFace EVO and will connect it to my existing DAC via coax (Stereovox XV-2) or the AES/EBU connection. 
   
  I don't like having a computer near my audio stuff, so was looking into USB-over-IP solutions (like Digi's AnywhereUSB, SIIG's product, or the Belkin USB Network Hub, etc) and/or wireless USB to get this into where my audio system is.  If those options fail, but the quality is sufficient from the EVO, I suppose I could build a low power fanless mini-ITX system with an SSD and hide it somewhere... but I'd rather not and might as well get the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC and Network Bridge instead.  That, or wait for their next-gen Digital Lens product which will supposedly have a slot for the bridge module.
   
  I enjoy using the Sonos and Apple Remote apps on my iPhone and iPad - especially looking forward to the Sonos iPad app...so was initially disappointed I could not use iTunes on PC without sacrificing quality due to not using the Kernel Streaming feature.  Theoretically, it looks like I could use this "MonkeyTunes" Server app along with MediaMonkey with the Kernel Streaming plugin to allow the Apple Remote app to control MediaMonkey:
   
http://melloware.com/products/monkeytunes/
   
  Pair that with a USB-over-IP solution, and I might be able to have a high-quality computer-controlled media streamer controllable via my iPhone.
   
  Any other ideas on remote-controlling this thing?


----------



## Lenni

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> 
> BTW, I see pricey cables got their supporters


 

 all tongue in cheek leeperry


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *RHMMMM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Theoretically, it looks like I could use this "MonkeyTunes" Server app along with MediaMonkey with the Kernel Streaming plugin to allow the Apple Remote app to control MediaMonkey:
> 
> Any other ideas on remote-controlling this thing?


 

 Foobar is also controllable via iPhone and presumably iPad as well via a plug-in. Apple seems to have no interest in iTunes quality for Windows, not surprising considering how little they care about the rest of their software for the Windows platform.


----------



## RHMMMM

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Foobar is also controllable via iPhone and presumably iPad as well via a plug-in. Apple seems to have no interest in iTunes quality for Windows, not surprising considering how little they care about the rest of their software for the Windows platform.


 

 Brilliant, this whole thing just might work for me.


----------



## dszabi

Is there a non-iPhone remote control for Foobar? I have a HTC smart phone with Windows Mobile, Wifi and 3G, it'd be nice to have a solution. Thanks!

  
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Foobar is also controllable via iPhone and presumably iPad as well via a plug-in. Apple seems to have no interest in iTunes quality for Windows, not surprising considering how little they care about the rest of their software for the Windows platform.


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





dszabi said:


> Is there a non-iPhone remote control for Foobar? I have a HTC smart phone with Windows Mobile, Wifi and 3G, it'd be nice to have a solution. Thanks!


 
   
  We are little OT here, but this could help you:
  http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components_0.9#Remote_control
  I hope you will find good solution for your needs.
   
  And there are more remote control plugins available, eg.:
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/foobarandroidrc/
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/foohttpserver/
  http://pelit.koillismaa.fi/plugins/show.php?id=63
  ... try to find "remote" on this page: http://pelit.koillismaa.fi/plugins/general.php
  ... and you can try to google more


----------



## sanne

Sorry guys I'm late to the whole party here and am having trouble keeping track of everything.
   
  I have a Stello DA100, and I find the USB input to be very lacking in the SQ department.  I want to buy the M2Tech Hiface to go directly to the Coax input, which supposedly sounds much better.  The Stello only has an RCA Coax input, not the BNC input.
   
  What should I buy?  The RCA M2Tech Hiface, or the BNC version and then get a BNC-RCA adapter?


----------



## shawn_low

Quote: 





sanne said:


> Sorry guys I'm late to the whole party here and am having trouble keeping track of everything.
> 
> I have a Stello DA100, and I find the USB input to be very lacking in the SQ department.  I want to buy the M2Tech Hiface to go directly to the Coax input, which supposedly sounds much better.  The Stello only has an RCA Coax input, not the BNC input.
> 
> What should I buy?  The RCA M2Tech Hiface, or the BNC version and then get a BNC-RCA adapter?


 
   
  If you aren't going to get a DAC/Source that has BNC, save your $30 and get the RCA version.


----------



## baka1969

Hi,
 Will the Hiface work with iTunes? Will it make a significant improvement while iTunes? I prefer the iTunes interface over Foobar. Yes I know. Foorbar is better. That's not my question though.

 Thanks.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> Hi,
> Will the Hiface work with iTunes? Will it make a significant improvement while iTunes? I prefer the iTunes interface over Foobar. Yes I know. Foorbar is better. That's not my question though.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 My HiFace works with netflix and you tube, I would think it should work with any audio coming out of your computer.  Don't use itunes though.
   
  USG


----------



## DaveBSC

I noticed over at Computer Audiophile that some people have started receiving their Hiface EVOs, and one was kind enough to open it up and post a shot of the guts. Jkeny I'd really like to hear your thoughts specifically on what you think can be done with it.


----------



## mmerrill99

It's too early to say much about it - I would need to get one into my hands to look at it's innards & listen to it's sound. You probably saw that I had a post over on CA asking the guy if he would identify some chip IDs for me. I didn't hear back.
   
  I can say this:
  - it uses a different Xilinx chip
  - it uses this chip to output all it's outputs i.e no DIT4192 for SPDIF output
  - it uses two MEC LARGE OSCILLATORS!!!! 
  - it uses at least 3 on-board regulators that I can see
   
  More than that I cannot say


----------



## regal

And one small oscillator  for a total of three.


----------



## mmerrill99

Yes, regal, that's a 24MHz clock for the Cypress USB chip & doesn't really have direct bearing on the audio quality, I believe (unless it's complete rubbish!). There's one of these in all the Hifaces too.
   
  Can you see anything else noteworthy in that pic? I asked specifically about the buffer chip IDs that seem to be used between the FPGA & the outputs - they are probably 74HC types?


----------



## DaveBSC

I noticed in the manual its very clear that the EVO is using a 75Ohm BNC connector, so hopefully there will be no confusion there. Interestingly they also recommend several choices as far as powering it - a 9V power supply, a 7.2/10.8V lithium battery, or 9V alkaline. Running to the store for new Duracells all the time seems a bit impractical. Since its possible to power the whole thing without using the USB bus, would there be a need for specific power to the clocks as with the standard Hiface, or would just running the whole thing on batteries be all that is required to get the most out of it?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I noticed in the manual its very clear that the EVO is using a 75Ohm BNC connector, so hopefully there will be no confusion there. Interestingly they also recommend several choices as far as powering it - a 9V power supply, a 7.2/10.8V lithium battery, or 9V alkaline. Running to the store for new Duracells all the time seems a bit impractical.


 

 Looks to me like the same BNC connectors as in the Hiface but I can't really tell, so I think the debate might rage on?
   
  Yes battery operation - hmmm, a good idea perhaps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But still using a regulator, hmmm?


----------



## regal

Nope,  the third clock is for synching to the external clock input.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I noticed in the manual its very clear that the EVO is using a 75Ohm BNC connector, so hopefully there will be no confusion there. Interestingly they also recommend several choices as far as powering it - a 9V power supply, a 7.2/10.8V lithium battery, or 9V alkaline. Running to the store for new Duracells all the time seems a bit impractical. Since its possible to power the whole thing without using the USB bus, would there be a need for specific power to the clocks as with the standard Hiface, or would just running the whole thing on batteries be all that is required to get the most out of it?


 
   
   
  I would be very surprised if those 99 cent regulators outperform Jkeny's batteries. And you would have to bypass them to prevent them from degrading the sound. Plus And you would have to bypass them to prevent them from degrading the sound.    And you  An


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> Nope,  the third clock is for synching to the external clock input.


 

 How does this synching work then & what is the point of an external clock if an internal clock is needed to synch to it? It would seem to me that this internal clock have some sonic role. I've never looked into external word clocks before so I don't know how they work but I assumed no other clock was needed for this function?
   
  There should be a clock for the Cypress chip USB function & I'm pretty sure I can see the traces from this clock to the Cypress chip?


----------



## regal

You are thinking of the LessLoss method, ,  the way sound cards and studios accept an external clock is thru a PLL via a wordclock input at least they are using an oscillator and not a synthesizer to generate the master clock.  Google "Big-Ben digital clock" that home studios use
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> How does this synching work then & what is the point of an external clock if an internal clock is needed to synch to it? It would seem to me that this internal clock have some sonic role. I've never looked into external word clocks before so I don't know how they work but I assumed no other clock was needed for this function?
> 
> There should be a clock for the Cypress chip USB function, no?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> You are thinking of the LessLoss method, ,  the way sound cards and studios accept an external clock is thru a PLL via a wordclock input at least they are using an oscillator and not a synthesizer to generate the master clock.  Google "Big-Ben digital clock" that home studios use


 
  But this isn't a Word Clock input as in Pro studio use - here's the extract from the manual:
   
   
  Quote: 





> 2) External clock in. Apply a clock source if you need higher precision and stability than
> provided by the internal oscillators. Please remember that a suitable clock (22.5792MHz or
> 24.576MHz) must be provided depending on the sampling frequency of files to be played
> back. Please see the specifications section for absolute maximum ratings. This input is
> galvanically isolated by a pulse transformer. 75 Ohm female BNC connector.


----------



## regal

Thats unorthodox but it opens a whole can of worms if we think transmission issues are bad with SPDIF, 512fs can be much worse,  I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole unless I built a DAC with the EVO inside it.  LessLoss had a $4k DAC built that they would modify your CD player to run off the 512fs clock inside their DAC,  its the ultimate methode to eliminate jitter if you can figure out the transmission.
   
   
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> But this isn't a Word Clock input as in Pro studio use - here's the extract from the manual:


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





regal said:


> Thats unorthodox but it opens a whole can of worms if we think transmission issues are bad with SPDIF, 512fs can be much worse,  I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole unless I built a DAC with the EVO inside it.  LessLoss had a $4k DAC built that they would modify your CD player to run off the 512fs clock inside their DAC,  its the ultimate methode to eliminate jitter if you can figure out the transmission.


 
  I agree about the transmission issues being just as onerous as SPDIF, if not more so, (I believe SPDIF has the speed of the signal rise time as it's fastest signal - so it's not as slow as quoted). So if you are struggling with SPDIF cable considerations be prepared to pull your hair out over this clock cable. I'm not sure why Marco implemented this?
   
  I2S also comes into the same category except there are now 4 high speed lines to think about cleanly transmitting & connector issues, etc. I have come around to the opinion that SPDIF, although a non-optimal solution, can work excellently, if the unavoidable jitter issues can be addressed. It already has galvanic isolation, agreed connectors & cabling - all these have to be decided for I2S. This is my experience after trying to generally implement I2S - it's great in a controlled internal environment where DAC is next to I2S transmitter but is not really for external exposure to unknown conditions.
   
  I always thought good digital engineering entailed putting high speed clocks as close to the chip as possible preferably on a straight trace to the chip's clock input pin i.e no bends. Looking at the Evo, clocks are close but not straight in line with Xilinx clock input pins but this is maybe splitting hairs?


----------



## ManBeard

Interesting, the Evo is now $479. It used to be listed for $365.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





manbeard said:


> Interesting, the Evo is now $479. It used to be listed for $365.


 

 Yeah, I noticed that as well. Boo TweekGeek.


----------



## mmerrill99

Looks like it might have been a mix-up between Euro & Dollars - €365 = $479


----------



## LOUD

Hi Sanne,
   
 [size=medium] 
  You posted several days ago and I didn't see it until now.  
   
  I am using the DA100 signature and bought a JKeny modded hiface with BNC output.  I bought a very reasonably priced cable from Blue Jeans Cables that was terminated with BNC on one side and RCA on the other.
   
  John Keny also recommended an inexpensive filter be installed on the cable that attenuates the signal from the hiface and to his ears (which I trust) improves transmission so that there is no degredation going from BNC to RCA.
   
  Information on the filter can be found on his website.
   
  I have not personally heard any of this as yet.  I just purchased a new main board for my computer and have had problems getting everything working again.  In the process my hard drive crashed and would not boot so I had to do a clean install using a new drive.  Then I had problems with the drivers which I just succeeded yesterday in getting straightened out.  I am going to install the hiface today.
   
  Best,
  Lou​[/size]


----------



## Bojamijams

Has anyone here tried feeding the Hifiman HM801 from the Hiface?


----------



## mmerrill99

This guy has tried, I'm sure! http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/492634/hifiman-hm-801-dac-performance#post_6647897


----------



## virushaus

Please excuse me my ignorance but I'm kind of new to all these stuff. That hiface has so many positive reviews that I eventually would like to add it to my audio system. But actually I'm not sure whether it's possible  while having an USB DAC ? If I get it right hiface cannot be hooked up with some DAC that has only USB input  - is that correct ?


----------



## Bojamijams

Correct. The point of the hiface is to convert from a USB to a Coaxial and feed your DAC with that.
  
  Quote: 





virushaus said:


> Please excuse me my ignorance but I'm kind of new to all these stuff. That hiface has so many positive reviews that I eventually would like to add it to my audio system. But actually I'm not sure whether it's possible  while having an USB DAC ? If I get it right hiface cannot be hooked up with some DAC that has only USB input  - is that correct ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

If your DAC is stuck with USB input only, then you are stuck with it.


----------



## GerardA

News on AMD:
   
  The HiFace can get a firmware update in Italy and then the PC's with AMD chipset will work again with the hiFace using the regular USB-connections from the motherboard.
   
  Only problem: Italian mail is slow...
  Guess new hiFaces and Evo's already come with this latest firmware.
   
  Checked yesterday and everything looks to work OK.


----------



## DaveBSC

Wavelength has a new 192kHz capable Hiface style converter called the WaveLink. $900 seems like an awful lot of cash, unless it does something that I'm missing.


----------



## ROBSCIX

That is a pricy converter.  I wonder if we will get some impressions for any takers around here?


----------



## DaveBSC

Apparently it's battery powered, but there's no external charger. It switches to charging mode when there's no incoming signal.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





loud said:


> Hi Sanne,
> 
> [size=medium]
> ............
> ...


 
  Have a look here for more information & early adopters comments about these attenuators! http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72468.msg796176#msg796176


----------



## Zorlac

Looks like it shows incoming sample rate which is really nice, but $900 is crazy.
  
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Wavelength has a new 192kHz capable Hiface style converter called the WaveLink. $900 seems like an awful lot of cash, unless it does something that I'm missing.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> $900 seems like an awful lot of cash, unless it does something that I'm missing.


 

 It walks your dog and does the laundry.


----------



## Pacha

Seems like there are no new drivers yet for HiFace. Maybe anyone has some info about that?


----------



## nvhoang

I want to buy the EVO but there are no review in internet so i can not decide. I´m using now hiface rca, it sounds good but somehow it´s too cold for my ears, it lacks the feeling, harmony and emotion when i listen to vocals. I´m having Dac Magic and Matrix mini, the Matrix mi ni passt with Hiface better than Dac Magic, but this combination is still not the level which i get from the spdif out put of my onboard soundcard.
   
  I like the clarity, details of Hiface RCA but i hate the unemotional of it. I dont know  if the Evo can fix this weakness of Hiface RCA ????


----------



## KingStyles

here is a little info on the evo.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Just-upgraded-Hiface-EVO


----------



## ccklone

Hey Now,
   
  I need some help getting the Hiface to work on my old G4 running Mac OS X 10.4.11. I installed the latest driver for Tiger but the computer will not recognize the Hiface in the System Preferences > Sound panel. It does show up in the System Profiler for the USB port. I tried the Hiface directly into the computer and plugged into the back of the DAC with an RCA male - to - male adapter, as well with no luck.  I tried to download the previous version driver, but it will not install or overwrite the latest version. M2Tech provided some instructions to delete the driver via the terminal window and Unix commands. I am not Unix literate. Here is what is in the Evo manual:
   
   
      4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac 
      Open a console, then type the following commands:
   
      sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp 
      sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions 
      sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
   
      Then, restart the Mac.
   
  I made some sad attempts at using the terminal window to no avail. Any thoughts out there on how I might get this Hiface to work on my old G4. I would like to get rid of the latest version driver and try to install the previous version to see if the Hiface would be recognized by the G4.
   
  I got it to work on my new iMac with the latest drivers for 10.6.4. Works like a champ and sounds great. So I know it works. I would use it on my iMac, but I have  an RWA Transit (which to my ear sounds more detailed). I want to use the Hiface on the backroom music server for my father-in-law. He will not remember to turn the RWA Transit on/off for each listening session since it runs on a battery, so the Hiface would be better for him. Thanks in advance for any assistance anyone might be able to provide me. 
   
  --
  Finest kind,
  Chris
   
   
  4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.
   
  4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.
   
   
  4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac Open a console, then type the following commands:
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
  Then, restart the Mac.
   
  4.4.3. Uninstalling the driver on a Mac 
  Open a console, then type the following commands:
   
  sudo mv /System/Library/Extensions/Hiface.kext /tmp 
  sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions 
  sudo pkgutil --forget com.m2tech.driver
   
  Then, restart the Mac.


----------



## LostOne.TR

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> It walks your dog and does the laundry.


 

 I'd actually buy it, if only it could...


----------



## AntuanMark

Hi Guys!
   
  I am looking for digital spdif output for my PC (Win 7). I have Zero DAC (with HDAM).
  It has Usb, but it is limited to 16bit/48kHz. My Audigy 4 sound card has spdif output with 24bit/192kHz, but as I know it is not very good for digital output.
  What type of digital interface will be better for me (to use with Zero Dac)?
   
  I have found for now: 
  1. M2tech Hiface (minus: do not have external power supply)
  2. PCI Musiland Digital Times sound card (minus: should be placed to the PC case)
  3. 01USD Monitor Musiland (minus: do not have external power supply)
  4. 02US Monitor Musiland (plus: has external power; minus: has analog part, I dont need it)
  ....
  Any other ideas? Or what will be better from list?
  BTW. I am not ready for solutions for about 1000 $ (Lynx, RME and so on)


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





antuanmark said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> I am looking for digital spdif output for my PC (Win 7). I have Zero DAC (with HDAM).
> It has Usb, but it is limited to 16bit/48kHz. My Audigy 4 sound card has spdif output with 24bit/192kHz, but as I know it is not very good for digital output.
> ...


 


 You might want to check HiFace (possibly battery modded by jkeny, see with him if he stills do some mods but you need to buy a brand new HiFace modded directly through him), M2tech EVO as well, or Audio-gd Digital Interface maybe, which are the top competitors of the moment.


----------



## AntuanMark

I have a variant of LynxOne for about 125$.
  It has 96kHz, but not 192kHz.
  Will it be better than M2tech for spdif output?


----------



## AntuanMark

LynxOne is not a variant. Doesnt have support of Wndows 7


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





nvhoang said:


> I want to buy the EVO but there are no review in internet so i can not decide. *I´m using now hiface rca,* it sounds good but somehow it´s *too cold* for my ears, it *lacks the feeling*,* harmony* and *emotion* when i listen to vocals. I´m having Dac Magic and Matrix mini, the Matrix mi ni passt with Hiface better than Dac Magic, but this combination is still not the level which i get from the spdif out put of my onboard soundcard.
> 
> I like the clarity, details of Hiface RCA but i hate the unemotional of it. I dont know  if the Evo can fix this weakness of Hiface RCA ????


 

 Hi
   
  I was wondering what other transports you've listened to?  I have a HiFace and agree with you assessment.  IMO the HiFace has a treble tilted pseudo-detailed, bass light, sound signature, that plays 3 or 4db louder than other transports so you have to be careful not to be fooled by the louder sounds better syndrome.  Do the instruments and vocals really sound more realistic with the HiFace?
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hi
> 
> I was wondering what other transports you've listened to?  I have a HiFace and agree with you assessment.  IMO the HiFace has a treble tilted pseudo-detailed, bass light, sound signature, that plays 3 or 4db louder than other transports so you have to be careful not to be fooled by the louder sounds better syndrome.  Do the instruments and vocals really sound more realistic with the HiFace?
> 
> USG


 

  
   
  I am not dismissing what you are hearing but it is impossible for a bit perfect transport like the Hiface to play louder than another bitperfect transport.  Have you performed the bit perfect test on any of the other transports you are comparing the Hiface to?
   
_I have: _ EMU0404PCI ASIO verified bitperfect via DTS test.   Played a 0 dbs 1khz sine wave.  Measured 2.05V AC output from my DAC.   Repeated the test with the Hiface playing the same 0dbs 1khz sine wave,  same 2.05V output from the DAC.   So this myth that the Hiface is "louder" is just not true, it is physically possible.
   
  What you may be experiencing is an overvoltage at your DAC's receiver.  SPDIF spec is around .5V,  the Hiface outputs around 2.0V !'s.  A good DAC will have a division resistor of 75 ohms which will bring this down to around 1.0V's at the receiver which most can handle,  but some DAC recievers can't.   As an engineer I can tell you this is the best explaination for what you are hearing, _ it sounds "louder" because it is distorting_.  The fix is to use BNC to BNC and a 75ohm 10dB attenuator.
   
  As far as the sound signature : First using USB to power the clocks on the Hiface is akin to a F1 car running on 87 octane gas.   The thing must have the clocks powered by a low noise powersupply like a shunt regulator or batteries,  the cheap internal regulators must be removed.   The difference in sound quality is phenomenal.  Also Hiface has made public that they made a mistake and substituted the original MEC clocks with an offbrand of suspect quality,  they did this breifly but many of us have found that these units with the no-name clocks don't sound as good as the MEC variants.  Possibly you have one of these units.
   
  I can understand folks not wanting to go thru all this trouble for a FOTM computer transport, it should be plug and play,  IMO Hiface made a lot of mistakes But this is really the first audiophile _quality _asynychrous USB computer transport made available to the average consumer.  The technology put together in this unit was a first (Asynch USB, dual clocks, bitperfect.)   But unfortunately you have to mod it for it to be worth buying.   In other words if I wasn't going to mod it I would just buy a EMU or Juli@ PCI card,  but if you take the time to mod it and have the patience to deal with batteries it stands in a league of its on as one of the best transports I have ever heard.
   
  Best thing to do if you haven't bought a Hiface is wait,  in 12 months there will be superior alternatives with all the growing pains worked out.


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





regal said:


> But unfortunately you have to mod it for it to be worth buying.   In other words if I wasn't going to mod it I would just buy a EMU or Juli@ PCI card...





>





> Best thing to do if you haven't bought a Hiface is wait,  in 12 months there will be superior alternatives with all the growing pains worked out.


 

 What a ridiculous statement.
   
  I own one of the first HiFace units ever made. I just recently found out about the clocks difference between the earlier and latter units, so I probably have that "better" clocks inside mine. Anyway my unit CLEARLY improved sound quality compared to ESI Juli@ and M-Audio Audiophile 192. Between the two sound cards I couldn't tell any difference but HiFace made the sound much livelier, deeper and detailed. It's actually a first transport which I could clearly differentiate from other transports I've used (including many sub $200 sound cards and Bel Canto USB-Link).
   
  I know competition has gotten fierce but why would you go and say that something isn't worth buying if you aren't going to mod it? I can't understand such statements. I would choose HiFace over similarly priced professional sound cards anytime.
   
  Oh and remember next time you're thinking of buying a car. The best thing to do is wait for another ten years. Maybe by then you can have a flying car for the same price.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> I am not dismissing what you are hearing but* it is impossible for a bit perfect transport like the Hiface to play louder than another bitperfect transport. * Have you performed the bit perfect test on any of the other transports you are comparing the Hiface to?


 

 In the CA Legato review, it was noted that the HiFace played about 3db louder than the Legato.  I have found that the HiFace plays noticeably louder than my Blue Circle Thingee and I have had conversations with others who have observed the same thing with various transports.  So as impossible as it sounds, it is a fact.  There is a reason for this, but it escapes me tonight.
   
  I completely agree with your statement that *"you have to mod it for it to be worth buying."*  And I believe your evaluation of your HiFace running under battery power, but the modification and dealing with the batteries is beyond something I want to deal with. 
   
  I have great respect for your knowledge and expertise as an engineer, so let me ask you a question.  What kind of moron would design a circuit that outputs 2V when they knew the specification called for 0.5V?   And who would want to buy a transport that needs a battery modification and a BNC attenuator to "fix" it?
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> What a ridiculous statement.
> 
> I own one of the first HiFace units ever made. I just recently found out about the clocks difference between the earlier and latter units, so I probably have that "better" clocks inside mine. Anyway my unit CLEARLY improved sound quality compared to ESI Juli@ and M-Audio Audiophile 192. Between the two sound cards I couldn't tell any difference but HiFace made the sound much *livelier, deeper and detailed*. It's actually a first transport which I could clearly differentiate from other transports I've used (including many sub $200 sound cards and *Bel Canto USB-Link*).
> 
> ...


 
   
  Apparently your experience was much better than mine.  In fact quite the opposite.  I found the HiFace to be bright, with treble tilted pseudo-details, bass light and have an unnatural quality to instruments and vocals.
   
  Just curious if you noticed that your HiFaces played louder than the other transports you mentioned ?
   
  USG
  
  edit to clarify


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I have great respect for your knowledge and expertise as an engineer, so let me ask you a question.  What kind of moron would design a circuit that outputs 2V when they knew the specification called for 0.5V?   And who would want to buy a transport that needs a battery modification and a BNC attenuator to "fix" it?
> 
> USG


 


 Thankyou.  What I saw when this unit was released was the hiface had great engineers but the marketing guys came in and slashed and cut it up to be a "cute" plugin for students and business persons with laptops .  I think the Evo was probably their original design intention.
   
  Anyway   who would want to buy one?  There was a time when audiophiles either built or modified all their gear as a hobby.  But there are so few of us left  that I was particularly concerned when I saw this becoming FOTM,  I actually warned folks about this early in this thread.  Now plenty of owners are happy and probably have an exceptionally clean USB bus,  but others not so lucky.  With the USB power you can have low overall jitter but it is concentrated at certain frequencies and it can be more annoying than a decent soundcard with higher jitter that is spread evenly across the frequencies. 
   
  I'll admit since doing the battery mod it is cumbersom,  if you forget to disconnect them,  they drain and can be ruined,  its a real PITA.   Hopefully in the next year or so we will have a good user friendly usb transport .


----------



## regal

First of all note that you bought one of the first Hiface units made,  everyone except you by now knows they pulled a bait and switch,  see the other thread for detail.
   
  Even with that you do have to mod it A for it to be in spec and B to get it off the USB power.
   
  You just got lucky,  you got a well built unit,  you have a clean USB hub, and your DAC can handle an out of spec SPDIF.  My statement wasn't rediculous,  you need to open your eyes a bit and lay off the coolaid
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





patu said:


> What a ridiculous statement.
> 
> I own one of the first HiFace units ever made. I just recently found out about the clocks difference between the earlier and latter units, so I probably have that "better" clocks inside mine. Anyway my unit CLEARLY improved sound quality compared to ESI Juli@ and M-Audio Audiophile 192. Between the two sound cards I couldn't tell any difference but HiFace made the sound much livelier, deeper and detailed. It's actually a first transport which I could clearly differentiate from other transports I've used (including many sub $200 sound cards and Bel Canto USB-Link).
> 
> ...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> Thankyou.  What I saw when this unit was released was the hiface had great engineers but the marketing guys came in and slashed and cut it up to be a "cute" plugin for students and business persons with laptops .  I think the Evo was probably their original design intention.


 
   
  I see what you're saying but I still don't understand why they weren't able to get the output down to spec? 
   
  USG


----------



## regal

The output driver on the Hiface is a Texas Instument DIT4192,  they followed the datasheet.  Its is wrong for spdif spec,  their engineers missed it,  happens all the time in a rush to market product.
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I see what you're saying but I still don't understand why they weren't able to get the output down to spec?
> 
> USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> The output driver on the Hiface is a Texas Instument DIT4192,  they followed the datasheet.  Its is wrong for spdif spec,  their engineers missed it,  happens all the time in a rush to market product.


 

 Hummm, OK, but it's been out a while, why not just get the right part and fix the problem?  (They had no trouble changing from large clocks to small clocks and then back again..)
   
  USG


----------



## regal

ever work for a company?  Politics,  don't want to admit a screw up, recalls, etc.   The fix btw is a .05 cent resistor.  Company politics can be bad especially at a small firm.  And the issue only affects a few DAC's.
   
  BTW I'm not making excusing for them,  I think their fake tech actual PR guy (Marco) is a scondrel.
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Hummm, OK, but it's been out a while, why not just get the right part and fix the problem?  (They had no trouble changing from large clocks to small clocks and then back again..)
> 
> USG


----------



## Patu

upstateguy:
   
  I haven't noticed any of the things you mentioned in your post. It's the most natural sounding transport I've used. I'm very sensitive to exaggerated highs and my system is quite capable of producing them. That's one of the reasons I sold Bel Canto DAC3, it made everything so super-detailed that I just couldn't bear it. DAC19 with its smoother sound signature fits me better. It might also be that HiFace is capable of producing them too but DAC19 makes the sound more enjoyable, I really don't know.
   
  I can't remember the sound levels when I compared the ESI Juli@ and HiFace but of course volume on my computer was maxed out and I only adjusted volume level through my amp.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> First of all note that you bought one of the first Hiface units made,  everyone except you by now knows they pulled a bait and switch,  see the other thread for detail.
> 
> Even with that you do have to mod it A for it to be in spec and B to get it off the USB power.
> 
> You just got lucky,  you got a well built unit,  you have a clean USB hub, and your DAC can handle an out of spec SPDIF.  My statement wasn't rediculous,  you need to open your eyes a bit and lay off the coolaid


 

 I haven't been following Head-Fi for some time now. That's why I don't know about it. Your post was one of the first ones I read. This might explain the very negative Computer Audiophile review of the unit.
   
  It still won't change anything. Saying that it isn't worth it to buy a complete finished product unless you mod it just doesn't apply to me. The unit is designed to work with USB-power and it works well with it so I see no need for an external power source. You could probably mod every single amplifier, DAC, CDP, speaker, headphone etc. on the market to sound better but to me, it's not worth it. I'm not a into DIY.
   
  Your point of view is from the engineering side of things, I prefer to trust my ears in these things. I appreciate your engineering knowledge (which I don't have) but everything just isn't about the specs or hardware.


----------



## leeperry

upstateguy said:


> it was noted that the HiFace played about 3db louder than the Legato.  I have found that the HiFace plays noticeably louder than my Blue Circle Thingee


 
   
  It still cracks me up to no end how everyone was calling the Hiface the eighth world wonder 6 months ago...and now it's become a worthless piece of...plastic


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> It still cracks me up to no end how everyone was calling the Hiface the eighth world wonder 6 months ago...and now it's become a worthless piece of...plastic


 
   
  Unfortunately, my initial impression of the stock HiFace has not changed:  It is a bright, sibilant, pseudo-detailed, treble tilted, bass light transport that takes full advantage of the "louder sounds better" trick.
   
  Added to that, IMO, I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick: * It doesn't work with upsampling DACs.*
   
   
  From jkeny's web site:
   
[size=10pt]"There have been a few people who have reported that they hear no difference between the Hiface & other inputs to their DAC. In all cases the reason for this has been that they are using an upsampling DAC or an upsampling device before their DAC. *This upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised. *Please be aware of this issue & unless you can use the Hiface into your DAC without upsampling you may well experience the same!"[/size]
   
   
[size=10pt]USG[/size]


----------



## leeperry

well, bit-perfect doesn't guarantee anything jitter-wise...but it'd need some really hard proof before saying that it's 3dB louder than any other bit-perfect interface....and possibly ask Marco what he thinks of it, even though he seems rather careless about support.
   
  real men don't upsample, they rely on their DAC oversampling stage.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> well, bit-perfect doesn't guarantee anything jitter-wise...but *it'd need some really hard proof before saying that it's 3dB louder *than any other bit-perfect interface....and possibly ask Marco what he thinks of it, even though he seems rather careless about support.
> 
> real men don't upsample, they rely on their DAC oversampling stage.


 

 Hiya Leeperry
   
  I read about it in a CA review about the Legato.....  I don't remember exactly where it is but  you're a good researcher, so I'm sure you will find it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If I'm not mistaken, most of the newer, higher end  type DACs like new Benchmark, Lavry and North Star upsample.
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

well, if you were to compare it to another interface...do they both pass the HDCD flag? the "louder, yet bit-perfect" transport theory sounds rather dubious.


----------



## digger945

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> well, if you were to compare it to another interface...do they both pass the HDCD flag? the "louder, yet bit-perfect" transport theory sounds rather dubious.


 

 It may not make logical sense, but it is a very _*real*_ phenomenon.
   
  I don't know what to make of it, but I certainly do hear it. To the tune of 3 or 4 clicks on a Dact 24 step attenuator.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





			
				upstateguy said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, my initial impression of the stock HiFace has not changed:  It is a bright, sibilant, pseudo-detailed, treble tilted, bass light transport that *takes full advantage of the "louder sounds better" trick*.
> 
> Added to that, IMO, I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick:  It doesn't work with upsampling DACs.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Quote: 





digger945 said:


> It may not make logical sense, but it is a very _*real*_ phenomenon.
> 
> I don't know what to make of it, but I certainly do hear it. To the tune of 3 or 4 clicks on a Dact 24 step attenuator.


 

 I'll echo both statements made here. I also found the HiFace to be louder than the direct USB-input of my DAC. It's not something unique to the HiFace though. I've owned several transports that changed the volume somehow.


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Unfortunately, my initial impression of the stock HiFace has not changed:  It is a bright, sibilant, pseudo-detailed, treble tilted, bass light transport that takes full advantage of the "louder sounds better" trick.
> 
> Added to that, IMO, I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick: * It doesn't work with upsampling DACs.*
> 
> ...


 
   
  To me it's not bright nor sibilant (I'm extremely sensitive to these two). Details are there and so are the basses. Really quite neutral sound to me and I can't find that any part of the sound spectrum would be exaggerated. 
   
  Out of curiosity, what are you using as your primary transport? Your description of the HiFace is so far from mine that there must be something wrong with your unit or then the change of parts in the later units really makes that big of a decrease in SQ.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> To me it's not bright nor sibilant (I'm extremely sensitive to these two). Details are there and so are the basses. Really quite neutral sound to me and I can't find that any part of the sound spectrum would be exaggerated.
> 
> *Out of curiosity, what are you using as your primary transport?* Your description of the HiFace is so far from mine that there *must be something wrong with your unit *or then the change of parts in the later units really makes that big of a decrease in SQ.


 
   
  1-  I'm not sure what you mean by primary transport????  I was using the HiFace.
   
  2-  I had a unit with the small clock and Tweak Geek is exchanging it for one with the large clocks.  How big a difference that will make remains to be seen.
   
  3-  Do you notice that your HiFace plays louder than your other transports?  Btw, what did you use before the HiFace?
   
  USG


----------



## Patu

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> 1-  I'm not sure what you mean by primary transport????  I was using the HiFace.
> 
> 2-  I had a unit with the small clock and Tweak Geek is exchanging it for one with the large clocks.  How big a difference that will make remains to be seen.
> 
> ...


 
   
  1. I meant that what do you compare it with, what did you have before HiFace?
   
  3. I haven't noticed it. I don't have any of my previous transports anymore. I have one backup professional sound card though but it's not plugged in (ESI Maya44). Before HiFace I owned several professional sound cards including EMU1212m, ESI Juli@, M-Audio Audiophile 192 and ESI Maya44. They all sounded pretty much the same to me. I couldn't tell a clear difference between them so I chose the one which functioned the best, had the best software etc. I also directly compared ESI Juli@ with Bel Canto USB-Link and preferred Juli@.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

If it doesn't work with upsampling DACs, why I can't hear volume difference with Stello DA100 in upsampling and bypass mode?
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Unfortunately, my initial impression of the stock HiFace has not changed:  It is a bright, sibilant, pseudo-detailed, treble tilted, bass light transport that takes full advantage of the "louder sounds better" trick.
> 
> Added to that, IMO, I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick: * It doesn't work with upsampling DACs.*
> 
> ...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





patu said:


> 1. I meant that what do you compare it with, what did you have before HiFace?
> 
> 3. I haven't noticed it. I don't have any of my previous transports anymore. I have one backup professional sound card though but it's not plugged in (ESI Maya44). Before HiFace I owned several professional sound cards including EMU1212m, ESI Juli@, M-Audio Audiophile 192 and ESI Maya44. They all sounded pretty much the same to me. I couldn't tell a clear difference between them so I chose the one which functioned the best, had the best software etc. I also directly compared ESI Juli@ with Bel Canto USB-Link and preferred Juli@.


 
   
  The short answer is a Blue Circle Thingee..............  (which sounds the same as the MB optical out of my Shuttle music computer.)  Also have listened to the on board USB implementations of my Stello and Constantine DACs.

  
  Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> If it doesn't work with upsampling DACs, why I can't hear volume difference with Stello DA100 in upsampling and bypass mode?


 
   
  Hi Andrew
   
  Could you explain your question a little more?  
   
  If you're just asking about the volume of the HiFace, I think its volume remains the same regardless what mode you're in, and, if you still have your UD-10 you should  be able to notice that the HiFace plays about 3db louder.
   
  USG


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> The short answer is a Blue Circle Thingee..............  (which sounds the same as the MB optical out of my Shuttle music computer.)  Also have listened to the on board USB implementations of my Stello and Constantine DACs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry, I must be misinterpreting that your comment "I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick:  *It doesn't work with upsampling DACs"*


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> Sorry, I must be misinterpreting that your comment "I have recently discovered why the HiFace needed to use the "louder sounds better" trick:  *It doesn't work with upsampling DACs"*


 

 It does work with upsampling DACs, but such DACs tend to hide much of the improvement that low-jitter transports can provide (according to jkeny). Both of my DACs are upsampling and I hear an improvement with the modded HiFace on both of them.


----------



## baka1969

Does that mean it will or won't work with the DacMagic?


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> Does that mean it will or won't work with the DacMagic?


 

 To be honest with you, I'd upgrade the DAC first. It's not that the HiFace won't work with it, it's just that you may not hear much of a difference.


----------



## xdanny

I've never cared for the upsample feature, no matter if done by the card internally or dac.  My dac has an optional button to enable it but I never turn it on.  In all honesty it's not bad, the differences are rather small, but it sounds a bit better with it disabled.  Same goes for the pre-hiface configuration.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> It does work with upsampling DACs, but such DACs tend to hide much of the improvement that low-jitter transports can provide (according to jkeny). Both of my DACs are upsampling and I hear an improvement with the modded HiFace on both of them.


 

 Thanks Shah, I wasn't clear. Of course the HiFace will still function as a transport....
   
  But I think the improvement you're alluding to is only from the battery power.  If you had a non upsampling DAC you might also hear "the improvement that low-jitter transports can provide."
   
  Don'tcha think?

  
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> I've never cared for the upsample feature, no matter if done by the card internally or dac.  *My dac has an optional button to enable it but I never turn it on.*  In all honesty it's not bad, the differences are rather small, but it sounds a bit better with it disabled.  Same goes for the pre-hiface configuration.


 

 My older Stello DAC has that option and I never turn it on either.
   
  But, on the other hand, and I could be wrong on this,  I think most of the newer, better DACs upsample automatically. (Exept the Havana, which is probably a very good candidate for a Jkeny Modded HiFace)  
   
  USG


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Thanks Shah, I wasn't clear. Of course the HiFace will still function as a transport....
> 
> *But I think the improvement you're alluding to is only from the battery power. * If you had a non upsampling DAC you might also hear "the improvement that low-jitter transports can provide."
> 
> *Don'tcha think?*


 
   
  It could be, I can't tell for sure. Although, it wouldn't explain the improvements I got from using other transports in my system prior to the modded HiFace.


----------



## regal

This is a little silly,  If you own an upsampling DAC you have bought a mid level budget (not cheap) DAC and not necessarily concerned of ever owning a high end transport cause they cost more than a new car!   Frankly the oversampling DAC was a good choice before the Hitech,  as I have said its a game changer.
   
  If you had plans to introduce a high end transport you would have bought an _oversampling_ DAC where the benefits of plugging in a $20k transport or a battery powered Hiface can be realized.  I would guess 9 out of 10 DAC's are oversampling,  not asynchronous upsampling.  Some DAC's like the EZDAC are both.
   
  Non of this means the Hiface won't work with an up sampling DAC,  just that it really won't improve things and more than a $20k Boulder would,  the Hiface is no different than any other $5k+ transport in that regard.
   
  If you have a NOS DAC I can offer no advice because I hate their sound and believe they are part of some twisted evil mastermind's plot to destroy digital audio


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> It could be, I can't tell for sure. Although, *it wouldn't explain the improvements I got from using other transports* in my system prior to the modded HiFace.


 

 Why?  I thought Jkeny's comments were only directed at the HiFace.

  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> This is a little silly,  If you own an upsampling DAC you have bought a mid level budget (not cheap) DAC and not necessarily concerned of ever owning a high end transport cause they cost more than a new car!   Frankly the oversampling DAC was a good choice before the Hitech,  as I have said its a game changer.
> 
> If you had plans to introduce a high end transport you would have bought an _oversampling_ DAC where the benefits of plugging in a $20k transport or a battery powered Hiface can be realized.  I would guess 9 out of 10 DAC's are oversampling,  not asynchronous upsampling.  Some DAC's like the EZDAC are both.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Regal
   
  Glad you weighed in on this because it's getting confusing which DACs might offer an improvement with the HiFace.  I am at a loss to come up with the names of any common non-DIY DACs that are just oversamplers.....  can you help with this?
   
  I bought a mid-level North Star MKII and a Blue Circle Thingee for a laptop rig that needs a USB connection, so it looks like my goose is cooked regarding the stock  HiFace.   When I bought the DAC, however, there was no such thing as a HiFace and like you said,  I had no intention of buying a high end transport.
   
*There are two things that are not **really** clear from your post:  *
   
*One is if a stock HiFace will offer any improvements over the Blue Circle device using the DAC I already have.  *
   
*And the other is that you seem to say (but maybe I've misinterpreted) that a stock HiFace is the equivalent of a $5K transport?*
   
  From their web site, the chips in the North Star MKII are:
   

 CS8416 - a very low jitter 192kHz digital receiver from Cirrus Logic
 AD1895 - an high dynamic 192/24 upsampler from Analog Devices
 2 x PCM1796 - 123 dB, 192/24 DAC from Texas
   
  I see that you don't care for the NOS offerings.  Wouldn't the HiFace and the mod work offer an improvement with them since they don't upsample??  If so, the HiFace could be something the Havana people might be interested in??
   
  USG


----------



## baka1969

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Shahrose  


 " To be honest with you, I'd upgrade the DAC first. It's not that the HiFace won't work with it, it's just that you may not hear much of a difference."



 I have no plans to upgrade my DAC. I'm quite happy with the DacMagic.


----------



## Patu

Why do I (once again) get this feeling like people would be talking about their subjective opinions as facts.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Why?  I thought Jkeny's comments were only directed at the HiFace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
   
  The AD1895 is a bottlekneck,  you will never have lower jitter than the clock feeding that upsampler,  this DAC is designed to improve performance with budget transports but leaves a bottleneck that prevents it from feeding a low jitter signal to the dac chips.
   
  As far as NOS,  yes they would have improvement with the Hiface.  But you will never hear me recommend a Havana or any other NOS DAC.  Look at AudioGD ,  they are the best bang for the buck right now,  even Swenson recommends them, they aren't just a FOTM.


----------



## ccbass

I searched around for a long ass time, but I couldn't find anything on this...even though I know people talked about it, since I read it here.
   
  How do you tell which Hiface you're buying?  Crappy clock vs good clock?  I'm really tempted to buy this as the toslink connection from my macbook pro is pissing me off with anything over 44.1 sample rate.
   
  Macbook pro to hiface coaxial/rca to dacmagic to bx5a.
   
  AH HA!  Found it!
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503323/hiface-sensitive-information
   
   
  Ok, well the real question is....
   
   
  Is there going to be that much of a change from toslink to the hiface?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> The AD1895 is a bottlekneck,  you will never have lower jitter than the clock feeding that upsampler,  *this DAC is designed to improve performance with budget transports* but leaves a bottleneck that prevents it from feeding a low jitter signal to the dac chips.
> 
> As far as NOS,  yes they would have improvement with the Hiface.  But you will never hear me recommend a Havana or any other NOS DAC.  Look at AudioGD ,  they are the best bang for the buck right now,  even Swenson recommends them, they aren't just a FOTM.


 
   
  Thanks for the info Regal.
   
  Can you recommend any DACs that are serviced in the US?  I don't want to buy another Chinese DAC.
   
  I have a Zhaolu that stopped working and shipping it back and forth to China for a repair is ridiculous.
   
  The reason I bought the North Star was that (should something happen), it's serviced in Connecticut.
   
  It looks like the new Benchmark, Lavry 11, PS Audio DLIII or Perfect Wave and Bel Canto DAC 3 all upsample like my North Star, so I think I'm going to wait for  an affordable  transport that works with upsampling DACs.
   
  Btw, does this same upsampling bottl apply to the WaveLink Async USB to SPDIF converter as well?
   
   
   
  USG

  
  Quote: 





ccbass said:


> I searched around for a long ass time, but I couldn't find anything on this...even though I know people talked about it, since I read it here.
> 
> How do you tell which Hiface you're buying?  Crappy clock vs good clock?  I'm really tempted to buy this as the toslink connection from my macbook pro is pissing me off with anything over 44.1 sample rate.
> 
> ...


 
   
  HiFace apparently doesnt' work well with upsampling dac like your dacmagic. 
   
  USG


----------



## leeperry

> Originally Posted by *ccbass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> How do you tell which Hiface you're buying?  Crappy clock vs good clock?
> 
> Is there going to be that much of a change from toslink to the hiface?


 
   
  1) you have to open it and it voids the warranty. also, there's no hard proof that the SQ is worse...just some OCD'ed hearsay, vastly prone to placebo. It would require jitter measurements or datasheet specs....four dirty words, I know.
    
  2) oh yes, toslink is the worst jitter-wise, something like +800ps...when a good coax connection will be <100ps and possibly lower.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Thanks for the info Regal.
> 
> Can you recommend any DACs that are serviced in the US?  I don't want to buy another Chinese DAC.
> 
> ...


 


 The Zhaolu especially the "ORI" modified was one of the most laughable hyped up junk ever to make the pages of FOTM here.   You are going to to have to spend at least $5k for a domestic DAC on the level of the AudioGD's,  look at the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC.  The "Chime" from Hagtech is a decent DAC that does _synchronous _upsampling,  which doesn't "throw away" the transport clock,  it is the prefered means to upsample but rarely found in mid-level DAC's.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





regal said:


> You are going to to have to spend at least $5k for a domestic DAC on the level of the AudioGD's,  look at the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC.  The "Chime" from Hagtech is a decent DAC that does _synchronous _upsampling,  which doesn't "throw away" the transport clock,  it is the prefered means to upsample but rarely found in mid-level DAC's.


 

 Once you start hitting $2000+ for a DAC, I don't think the Hiface makes any sense. You might as well just buy the Ayre and be done with it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> *The Zhaolu especially the "ORI" modified was one of the most laughable hyped up junk ever to make the pages of FOTM here. *  You are going to to have to spend at least $5k for a domestic DAC on the level of the AudioGD's,  look at the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC.  The "Chime" from Hagtech is a decent DAC that does _synchronous _upsampling,  which doesn't "throw away" the transport clock,  it is the prefered means to upsample but rarely found in mid-level DAC's.


 
   
  LOL    No doubt!   I have fallen for many FOTM products that have turned out to be hyped up junk, like the stock HiFace.
   
  I checked out the Chime, but I really don't have the patience for a kit right now.......  but thanks for the lead, maybe some day I'll drag out the soldering iron again.
   
  I know you like Audio GD, but I don't want to spend anything more than a few hundred dollars on something that has to be serviced on the other side of the planet.    Now suppose I got a Reference DAC 7, which is in the same price range as the North Star, and it arrived with an annoying scratch on the case (I don't accept cosmetic imperfections on $1k+ equipment), or something wasn't soldered up just right or there was some other unforeseen problem.....  
   
  It was annoying enough to have to send the HiFace back to Colorado and wait for an exchange.   I don't want to have to deal with sending something back to china (again).
   
  Some of the guys don't mind packing and insuring and shipping and tracking and then hoping that it arrives in china in one piece, and then survives the return trip intact,  but unfortunately I'm not one of them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Oh well.
   
  And talk about Hyped Up.  Audio GD is one of the most hyped things on the forum....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG


----------



## Zorlac

Kingwa w/Audio-gd has folks in the US repair his products. The Phoenix I had was repaired in Florida by another fellow Head-fier.  
   
  Kingwa has the best customer service I have experience in the audio world, so I would definitely recommend his gear to you as well.


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> LOL    No doubt!   I have fallen for many FOTM products that have turned out to be hyped up junk, like the stock HiFace.
> 
> I checked out the Chime, but I really don't have the patience for a kit right now.......  but thanks for the lead, maybe some day I'll drag out the soldering iron again.
> 
> ...


 


 Well, packing and shipping to China IN CASE ONLY of some failure of the device is certainly cheaper than paying FOR SURE a lot more when buying some stuff from reputed US brands, not mentionning the potential shipping fees to other US state if any failure appears.
   
  If you can afford gear sounding as good as DAC19DSP, Ref1 or 7, etc for 3 times the price then it's a nice thing for you but not everyone can do so, or at least they prefer spending the difference on upgrading their cans or other gear.
   
  There are so many people here who own(ed) a lot of high-end stuff and who compared this to Audio-gd gear and said the latter to be bang for the buck, that I tend to believe them. And I personally have listened myself to 3DLab BD Player at $3500 with supa high-end interconnects and power setup, Naim DAC with extra high end interconnects and power cable (a $1700 power cable) and Metronome transport at $7300, and I didn't feel it to be really better than my Audio-gd DAC19DSP/C2 setup with modded HiFace, at least better than the FUN for sure.
   
  No fanboy stuff to me then, just pure observation and will to not get stealed by some manufacturers. Not looking at the manufacturing fees and service that is not the same with China and US or Japan etc, no possible comparison here, talking about electronic costs, I personally will never pay $7000 for a piece of hardware. I mean, come on, does a CPU really need less techies to design and produce such a concentrate of technologie compared to "old school" audio electronic to justify that a CPU can cost $50 to $300 and an transport $7000? Taken separately, the hardware costs won't exceed 10% of the price, and I'm not ok to pay 90% of this kind of amount for R&D, design and marketing. Whatever improvement is there over Ref 1 or 7 there could be, it's just not worth it, except if you really can afford it easily and don't care spending so much. There are so many things manufactured at $20 sold $650 like sport gear, and such, even food sold at $25/kg while it's sold at $5 at the producer place 50km away.
   
  Audio stuff can be sold cheap, overpriced gear is only a matter of companies making a lot of money, nothing more.


----------



## FauDrei

OK, we got it.
   
  In fact we understood you back at "I don't want to buy another Chinese DAC". No need to repeat/reproduce that.
   
  So go out and spend your $2K or more on a better DAC than RE-7. It is all hype around it anyway. 
   
  Oh, BTW... others that love the hype can get this aforementioned "another Chinese DAC" for $1865 from Pacific Valve with: "email help, user manuals, USA based warranty, USA based 30 day return and SWAP agreements, and most importantly, USA based repair"
   
  ...and be happy with your new domestic non hyped DAC... and do report the effect of stock/modded HiFace on it in this very thread.
   
  (sorry for OT)


----------



## Andrew_WOT

You can get used Chord DAC64 for under $2K if you are lucky, there are US distributors/dealers that can help with the repair. They don't pop up for sale very often so you should be patient, watch ebay uk, it's more frequent there. And this DAC is marvelous. 

  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> LOL    No doubt!   I have fallen for many FOTM products that have turned out to be hyped up junk, like the stock HiFace.
> 
> I checked out the Chime, but I really don't have the patience for a kit right now.......  but thanks for the lead, maybe some day I'll drag out the soldering iron again.
> 
> ...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Kingwa w/Audio-gd has folks in the US repair his products. The Phoenix I had was repaired in Florida by another fellow Head-fier.
> 
> Kingwa has the best customer service I have experience in the audio world, so I would definitely recommend his gear to you as well.


 

 Are you one of the fanboys?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





pacha said:


> Well, packing and shipping to China IN CASE ONLY of some failure of the device is certainly cheaper than paying FOR SURE a lot more when buying some stuff from reputed US brands, not mentionning the potential shipping fees to other US state if any failure appears.
> 
> If you can afford gear sounding as good as DAC19DSP, Ref1 or 7, etc for 3 times the price then it's a nice thing for you but not everyone can do so, or at least they prefer spending the difference on upgrading their cans or other gear.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Pacha
   
  I think what I said was that I didn't like *packing* and *insuring* and *shipping* and *tracking* and then* hoping* that it arrives in china *in one piece*, and then hoping it *survives* the return trip *intact*......... but it's perfectly alright if you do.
   
  USG

  
  Quote: 





faudrei said:


> OK, we got it.
> 
> In fact we understood you back at "I don't want to buy another Chinese DAC". No need to repeat/reproduce that.
> 
> <snip>


 

 OK, FraGua, so I got burned on some Chinese equipment and I'm not done complaining about it yet........... gimme a little slack.     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And now I've got this HiFace exchange to deal with..........   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  
  Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> You can get used Chord DAC64 for under $2K if you are lucky, there are US distributors/dealers that can help with the repair. They don't pop up for sale very often so you should be patient, watch ebay uk, it's more frequent there. And this DAC is marvelous.


 
   
  How are you Andrew?  I've never heard a Chord DAC....  But how much better than a Stello can it really be?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

You guys might be interested in a just published Positive Feedback round-up article on a wide range of USB transports http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/usb_converters.htm


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> How are you Andrew?  I've never heard a Chord DAC....  But how much better than a Stello can it really be?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It can run circles around any DAC I've heard to day all day long.  Quick search against this board should return you some useful hits. It's quite rare but very regarded in hi-fi circles, I have MKI (bought from UK shop) that is considered more detailed and into your face than smoothed out (rolled off) MKII, but the latest reincarnation (QBD76 ) seems to trump both (damn expensive as well).
  Link to the manufacturer site
  http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products_detail.asp?id=33
   
  QBD76 (the latest one)
  http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products_detail.asp?id=52
   
  Review of MKI
  http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/624/index.html
  MKII
  http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/807chord/index.html


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> You guys might be interested in a just published Positive Feedback round-up article on a wide range of USB transports http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/usb_converters.htm


 

 Interesting that he seemed to prefer the adaptive converters overall rather than the asynch converters.


----------



## Pacha

Quote:


upstateguy said:


> Hi Pacha
> 
> I think what I said was that I didn't like *packing* and *insuring* and *shipping* and *tracking* and then* hoping* that it arrives in china *in one piece*, and then hoping it *survives* the return trip *intact*......... but it's perfectly alright if you do.
> 
> USG


 


 Well at least if you pack it as Kingwa does, you may not have bad surprise except package lost, which can happen in US too. I don't know if your USPS/FedEx/UPS/DHL service is perfect in US but here in France any of the delivery companies often deliver damaged parcels, so I'm not more confident in sending some frenchie DAC to my own country than to China with the Audio-gd packing which I kept and was beefy. I don't think all US guys are far more respectful of the parcel than some here do, throwing ruthless the boxes in the van and the plane parcel container.
  But well, it's ok, just a matter of personal decision, if you wish to buy local stuff nobody will blame you for that.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Can anyone point to the reliable online source of those 75Ohm attenuators and which model HiFace benefits from the most?
  Thanks


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Interesting that he seemed to prefer the adaptive converters overall rather than the asynch converters.


 

 Yep, but then he doesn't seem to know that digital audio contains timing information as well as data - not just bits as he keeps talking about bit delivery from A to B. Anyway, he doesn't seem to care about the technology but yet he spent $15,000 on his "jitter immune" DAC & $1,200 on his Divertus adaptive converter, so go figure?
   
  I guess he also recognised that a $12 attenuator was also worthwhile even on the $129 SPDIF cable!
   
  He wasn't discriminating enough & left a lot of questions unanswered, I felt. For instance, he throws accolades on the cables he used & yet he used a stock USB cable on the JKHiface, without sonic penalty, it seems! He also just highly recommended everything which surely couldn't be the case!
   
  Still, I guess he represents a lot of people who aren't bothered about the innards & the technology & just want to judge the sound which of course is what it ultimately is about, right!


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> Can anyone point to the reliable online source of those 75Ohm attenuators and which model HiFace benefits from the most?
> Thanks


 

 This is where I got mine, as per John's recommendations.  Scroll down to the bottom of the page and pick your db level.  I got a pair of 10s, the HAT-10-75 and a pair of 6s just to try out. 
   
  http://www.minicircuits.com/products/attenuators_coax_fixed.html
   
  I have the modded version, so I couldn't tell you which one would benefit the most from the attenuators.  From what I can remember reading a few threads, both versions should yield a slight improvement.


----------



## Pacha

Any attenuator recommended for RCA?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Thanks, just ordered myself 10db one.
  Do you just install them on the hiface or on the other end of the SPDIF cable too?
  
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> This is where I got mine, as per John's recommendations.  Scroll down to the bottom of the page and pick your db level.  I got a pair of 10s, the HAT-10-75 and a pair of 6s just to try out.
> 
> http://www.minicircuits.com/products/attenuators_coax_fixed.html
> 
> I have the modded version, so I couldn't tell you which one would benefit the most from the attenuators.  From what I can remember reading a few threads, both versions should yield a slight improvement.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Yep, but then he doesn't seem to know that digital audio contains timing information as well as data - not just bits as he keeps talking about bit delivery from A to B. Anyway, he doesn't seem to care about the technology but yet he spent $15,000 on his "jitter immune" DAC & $1,200 on his Divertus adaptive converter, so go figure?
> I guess he also recognised that a $12 attenuator was also worthwhile even on the $129 SPDIF cable!
> 
> He wasn't discriminating enough & left a lot of questions unanswered, I felt. For instance, he throws accolades on the cables he used & yet he used a stock USB cable on the JKHiface, without sonic penalty, it seems! He also just highly recommended everything which surely couldn't be the case!
> ...


 

 Yeah, straight away he comes out and says that he's not going to rank them or really criticize them in any way. It was sort of hard to tell from first read through, but I think the only one that wasn't "highly recommended!" was the stock Hiface. It's too bad Chris at Computer Audiophile wasn't able to test the modded version in his Hiface review, as that would've been a much more worthwhile read.
   
  Still, it does make me curious about the Sonicweld. A USB bus powered adaptive converter should be clearly inferior, secret sauce hardware or no, and yet he didn't seem like he was rushing to replace his with the battery mod Hiface or the supposedly ultra low jitter Audiophilleo.


----------



## xdanny

I've got one at each end. Still in the experimental stage, so I can't give an accurate report on how the sound is affected.  The 6db  ones are on their way from minicircuits, I should get them any day now.  I'll post my impressions if any after I play with them for a while...
  
  Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> Thanks, just ordered myself 10db one.
> Do you just install them on the hiface or on the other end of the SPDIF cable too?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> .......... It's too bad Chris at Computer Audiophile wasn't able to test the modded version in his Hiface review, as that would've been a much more worthwhile read.
> 
> Still, it does make me curious about the Sonicweld. A USB bus powered adaptive converter should be clearly inferior, secret sauce hardware or no, and yet he didn't seem like he was rushing to replace his with the battery mod Hiface or the supposedly ultra low jitter Audiophilleo.


 
  I offered one to Chris when he was doing his Hiface review a couple of months ago but he declined!
   
  Dave's stated preference is the sound of adaptive USB transports -  as he stated about asynchronous "Light and airy while being very articulate with wonderful sense of detail combined with enough retrieval of ambient information to make images more 3D than 2D. While not as 'substantial' sounding as that heard from the isosynchronous Diverter nor as musically engaging in any overall sense either, even when combined with the Cardas/Black Cat cabling, converters featuring the asynchronous all sound more alike than different."


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Yeah, straight away he comes out and says that he's not going to rank them or really criticize them in any way. It was sort of hard to tell from first read through, but I think the only one that wasn't "highly recommended!" was the stock Hiface. It's too bad Chris at Computer Audiophile wasn't able to test the modded version in his Hiface review, as that would've been a much more worthwhile read.
> 
> Still, it does make me curious about the Sonicweld. A USB bus powered adaptive converter should be clearly inferior, secret sauce hardware or no, and yet he didn't seem like he was rushing to replace his with the battery mod Hiface or the supposedly ultra low jitter Audiophilleo.


 
   
  This is my impression as well.  Has anyone here had a chance to listen to the Diverter?


----------



## baka1969

I too would like to find an attenuator for RCA. Any suggestions please?


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> This is my impression as well.  Has anyone here had a chance to listen to the Diverter?


 

 There are a few threads about it here, as well as some Positive Feedback reviews and such. Not too much in the way of direct comparisons though, at least not with direct rivals such as the WaveLink or the Weiss INT 202. Sonicweld is also apparently working on a complete USB DAC with volume control and a headphone output which would be a direct challenger to the Weiss DAC 202.


----------



## sleepy dan

The thing with Chord is that they actually understand what happens inside a D to A converter, to the point where they have designed their own conversion and filtering techniques.  They have some extremely clever people working for them.  Most manufacturers simply pick chips from the usual suspects (Texas Instruments, Cirrus Logic, Analog Devices, AKM etc) and put them together. 
  Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> It can run circles around any DAC I've heard to day all day long.  Quick search against this board should return you some useful hits. It's quite rare but very regarded in hi-fi circles, I have MKI (bought from UK shop) that is considered more detailed and into your face than smoothed out (rolled off) MKII, but the latest reincarnation (QBD76 ) seems to trump both (damn expensive as well).


----------



## Bubu1

Guys,
  Here are my impressions with the attenuators.  I have tried both a 10 and 15dB attenuator attached to the DAC input.  I have not tried it on the HIface output end. I have a Headroom Ultra Desktop DAC which only has an RCA jack for coax input.  As reference, this DAC uses the ESS9008 chip.   I ordered adapters from Allied electronics (http://www.alliedelec.com/. The parts are listed below) so that I could use the attenuators with my RCA cable and DAC.
  The 10dB attenuator did help with the imaging and soundstaging.  Placement of instruments was more accurate and soundstage was a bit better layered but it was not a huge difference. I had this for one week and decided to order the 15dB attenuator as violins and such still seemed a bit harsh.  When I plugged the15dB attenuator in, WOW!  The bass, Oh the bass.  What extension!  The bass became much more palpable and provided a much more solid foundation to the music.  I can clearly hear bowing of string basses.  The tonality and the resonance of the bass becomes so much clearer.  In addition the imaging and soundstaging improved even more than with the 10dB attenuator.  The layering becomes superb and low level detail is astounding!!   Any grain to the sound is completely gone to my ears and the violins sound more believable and not harsh.  I know that this is cliche, but everything just sounds right!!! Even piano sounds more believable.   If you order the attenuators order at least 2 different dBs! They are well worth the money. Another excellent suggestion from John!!!
   
  Here is my order from allied electronics!
  Let me know your impressions!
   

 Items Ordered 
 *Qty. 
 Ordered* *Qty. 
 Shipped* *Stock #* *Mfr. Part #* *Your Part #* *Price* *Total* 1 1 202-0840 R0844   $4.06 $4.06 CONNECTOR, RF COAXIAL, BETWEEN SERIES ADAPTER, RCA PLUG TO BNC JACK   1 1 202-0835 R0843   $2.64 $2.64 CONNECTOR, RF COAXIAL, BETWEEN SERIES ADAPTER, RCA JACK TO BNC PLUG   Tax: $1.46 Handling: $5.00 Freight: $9.15 *Order Total:* $22.31
 
 
  Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> I too would like to find an attenuator for RCA. Any suggestions please?


 




  Quote: 





andrew_wot said:


> Thanks, just ordered myself 10db one.
> Do you just install them on the hiface or on the other end of the SPDIF cable too?


 




  Quote: 





pacha said:


> Any attenuator recommended for RCA?


----------



## Bubu1

Here are some images of my setup.  Sorry for the pic quality.  I had to use my iPhone!!!
  !


----------



## mmerrill99

Thanks for the words of encouragement, bubu1 - I sincerely believe that these attenuators do a great job & my explanation for their operation is that they reduce reflections reaching the DAC. These reflections are well known as the source of jitter!
   
  There is an in-depth review from enjoythemusic coming out on the 10th which compares stock & modified Hiface along with Evo & Audiophileo. In it scope shots are shown of the effect on SPDIF output of the Hiface modifications & also of the attenuators. There are already scope shots of the effects of attenuators on the digital lines in a thread over on DIYAudio. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/168901-rf-attenuators-jitter-reducers.html
   
  Beware this thread starts out all nice & gentle but I get accused of all sorts quiet quickly - like bringing the whole audio designer engineering community into disrepute, I ask you !  Here's where the scope shots start http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/168901-rf-attenuators-jitter-reducers-5.html#post2222973


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Thanks for the words of encouragement, bubu1 - I sincerely believe that these attenuators do a great job & my explanation for their operation is that they reduce reflections reaching the DAC. These reflections are well known as the source of jitter!


 
  John,
  You are quite welcome.  You have not steered me wrong yet!  The sound of my system keeps getting better and better thanks to you and your suggestions.  I know that you have gotten some grief lately that in my opinion is not justified!!  Thanks for freely sharing your findings.  You represent what this hobby is all about!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Tom


----------



## Shahrose

I'm wondering if ordering the 20dB attenuator would be even better than the 15dB.


----------



## Bubu1

Shahrose,
  Don't tempt me.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  In all seriousness I'm not sure if it would be better but at ~$12 US you can order an entire set and try it out.  Don't do what I did and order them separately.  I needlessly paid an extra $10 for shipping.  FYI, I did try to use the 10 and 15 together in series and as you might expect the signal was so attenuated that the DAC could not get a lock!


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> Shahrose,
> Don't tempt me.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for informing me. That means it's probably not wise to go above 15-20dB. Good advice too about ordering all at once. I'll pick up 10, 15 and 20 and see which works best.


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Thanks for informing me. That means it's probably not wise to go above 15-20dB.


 

 You're welcome!  Let us know how and what attenuators work out for you.


----------



## upstateguy

My exchange HiFace arrived today.  I'm going to post about it here , in the HiFace sensitive information thread.
   
  USG


----------



## baka1969

So that attenuator does work with both sides the RCA Hiface and the RCA of the cable or DAC input?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Yep, but then he doesn't seem to know that digital audio contains timing information as well as data - not just bits as he keeps talking about bit delivery from A to B. Anyway, he doesn't seem to care about the technology but yet he spent $15,000 on his "jitter immune" DAC & $1,200 on his Divertus adaptive converter, so go figure?
> I guess he also recognised that a $12 attenuator was also worthwhile even on the $129 SPDIF cable!
> 
> *He wasn't discriminating enough & left a lot of questions unanswered, I felt. *For instance, he throws accolades on the cables he used & yet he used a stock USB cable on the JKHiface, without sonic penalty, it seems! He also just highly recommended everything which surely couldn't be the case!
> ...


 
   
  One of the things he didn't address was the *upsampling bottle neck*.  Perhaps that's why, as you suggested, his preference was for the sound of the adaptive USB transports rather than the asynchronous ones.
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> So that attenuator does work with both sides the RCA Hiface and the RCA of the cable or DAC input?


 

If, as jkeny suggests, that "upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised", I'm wondering what difference an attenuator will make if you are using an upsampling DAC?
   
[size=10pt]USG[/size]


----------



## regal

Depending on how the upsampling is implemented and on whose theory you believe on asynochrous upsampling jitter propogation it would be worth a try,  it is a bit of an empirical science at this point.   I could send you a 9 dB attentuator to try that I ordered by mistake but it isn't 75 ohm.
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> If, as jkeny suggests, that "upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised", I'm wondering what difference an attenuator will make if you are using an upsampling DAC?
> 
> [size=10pt]USG[/size]


----------



## regal

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> You guys might be interested in a just published Positive Feedback round-up article on a wide range of USB transports http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/usb_converters.htm


 

 From the review: "[size=x-small]While not as 'substantial' sounding as that heard from the isosynchronous Diverter nor as musically engaging in any overall sense either[/size]",  I read this as the guy has been listening to heavy 60 hz jitter his whole life and without it things just don't sound substantial.  I stopped reading the review right there,  I'll bet he has never heard a high end transport before.  Jitter is normally prominant at 60 hz,  because that is the frequency of the AC from the wall and 120hz (rectified),  this smearing of the bass can be preferred by some as I imagine some like bass boost on their boom box.


----------



## AntuanMark

As for attenuators.
  Is it what is needed? 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mini-Circuits-15542-CAT-15-75-Attenuator-15-dB-75-OHM-/200515143920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eafa248f0#ht_1359wt_1138
  Thanks!


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





antuanmark said:


> As for attenuators.
> Is it what is needed?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Mini-Circuits-15542-CAT-15-75-Attenuator-15-dB-75-OHM-/200515143920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eafa248f0#ht_1359wt_1138
> Thanks!


 

 You want DC to 2gHz not 500MHz.  Buy direct from mini circuits! Here is the part # for a 15dB att. HAT-15-75+ FXD ATTEN / BNC / RoHS EA 1 11.950 $11.95


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> So that attenuator does work with both sides the RCA Hiface and the RCA of the cable or DAC input?


 

 It should work on either end.  It was just more convenient for me to put it on the DAC end rather than the HiFace.  My other thought was that it might be better to have the 75ohm end closest to the DAC! If I have time this evening I'll put the att. on the hiface and see how it works.


----------



## baka1969

Quote:
 Originally Posted by upstateguy  


 " If, as jkeny suggests, that "upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised", I' m wondering what difference an attenuator will make if you are using an upsampling DAC?
 USG"



 It shouldn't be an issue as the DacMagic only upsamples when using the balanced outputs. That still doesn't answer the question: So that attenuator does work with both sides the RCA Hiface and the RCA of the cable or DAC input? I would appreciate an answer as the Hiface I got will arrive today. Thanks.


 EDIT:

 It pays to read the entire thread before posting. Thanks bubu1 for the help!


----------



## Bubu1

I have noticed the changes that I have described with my Headroom DAC based on the ESS9008 chip.  This chip upsamples the incoming signal and according to specs tolerates a fair amount of jitter and uses the upsampling to remove it (this is an extreme oversimplification of what this chip does!!!!).  So FWIW, I hear improvements in sound using an upsampling DAC.  YMMV.
   
  baka1969, you're quite welcome. I hope this tweak improves your system!
  Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by upstateguy
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mmerrill99

Yes, it depends on the upsampler & how it's implemented. The ESS Sabre DACs are not your usual upsampling technology! The message on my website is really to be careful when using a low jitter source with an upsampler - it will, as a generalisation, tend to limit the improvement that can be realised.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> From the review: "[size=x-small]While not as 'substantial' sounding as that heard from the isosynchronous Diverter nor as musically engaging in any overall sense either[/size]", * I read this as the guy has been listening to heavy 60 hz jitter his whole life and without it things just don't sound substantial.  *I stopped reading the review right there,  I'll bet he has never heard a high end transport before.  Jitter is normally prominant at 60 hz,  because that is the frequency of the AC from the wall and 120hz (rectified),  this smearing of the bass can be preferred by some as I imagine some like bass boost on their boom box.


 

 Good point.  I never thought of it that way.  I wonder how many of us fall into that category?

  
  Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> I have noticed the changes that I have described with my Headroom DAC based on the ESS9008 chip.  This chip upsamples the incoming signal and according to specs tolerates a fair amount of jitter and uses the upsampling to remove it (this is an extreme oversimplification of what this chip does!!!!).  *So FWIW, I hear improvements in sound using an upsampling DAC.  *YMMV.
> 
> baka1969, you're quite welcome. I hope this tweak improves your system!


 

 Two questions to gain some perspective:
   
  1-  what kind of improvements are you hearing?
   
  2-  what are you comparing the HiFace to?
   

 USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> It shouldn't be an issue as *the DacMagic only upsamples when using the balanced outputs*. That still doesn't answer the question: So that attenuator does work with both sides the RCA Hiface and the RCA of the cable or DAC input? I would appreciate an answer as the Hiface I got will arrive today. Thanks.


 
   
  Are you sure?
   
  They don't advertise it like it only upsamples in balanced mode :  from their web site
   
_"Adapted Time Filtering (ATF) asynchronous upsampling technology might sound complicated but the benefits are instantly audible. Essentially it converts 16-24 bit audio to 24 bit/192kHz so you hear so much more from compressed material. Meanwhile a 32 bit Digital Signal Processor (DSP) eradicates jitter which is especially effective with hard disk playback from PCs or Macintosh computers. Whether your digital music collection is stored on a PC or you use a network music client – Squeezebox™, SoundBridge™, Sonos™ etc - the difference in audible quality is incredible!"_
   
  Then they go on to say:
   
_*Once upsampled,* the DacMagic offers both unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR outputs for the best quality analogue transfer. _
   
  USG


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Two questions to gain some perspective:
> 
> 1-  what kind of improvements are you hearing?
> 
> ...


 

 1. Improvements with the 15dB attenuator are most obvious with the bass, at least in my system.  Much better defined and deeper.  As I said earlier, it provides a more solid foundation to the music.  Tonality is very good as I can very clearly distinguish different notes on various instruments and the distinct sound of similar instruments, as an example bowing on string basses is much clearer and distinct even in complex passages (e.g. LSO with Abbado conducting Mendelssohn's 4th) .  The soundstage doesn't get wider but maybe a little deeper and the layering is quite good.  Imaging is also improved and the instruments occupy distinct places in space.  In a cursory comparison, hi rez files (96/24) seem to be better in all of these areas.
   
  2.  I compared the modded hiface with or without the use of the attenuator.  I no longer have a stock unit and admittedly I have no experience with other transports as I have been happy with the modded hiface unit.  Frankly, my original reason for getting the stock Hiface was that it was inexpensive and it allowed me to use software such as Pure Music that can do automatic sample rate switching and play Hi Rez music files natively.  I never expected a large change in the sound. The stock HiFace from what I can remember was a bit better than the optical out on my macbook.  When I read the reviews about JK Hiface I just had to try it (for ~$160 for the mod it was worth the gamble).  I'm glad that I did. The attenuator is just icing on the cake.


----------



## baka1969

Quote:
 Originally Posted by upstateguy  


 " Are you sure?
 They don't advertise it like it only upsamples in balanced mode :  from their web site
 "Adapted Time Filtering (ATF) asynchronous upsampling technology might sound complicated but the benefits are instantly audible. Essentially it converts 16-24 bit audio to 24 bit/192kHz so you hear so much more from compressed material. Meanwhile a 32 bit Digital Signal Processor (DSP) eradicates jitter which is especially effective with hard disk playback from PCs or Macintosh computers. Whether your digital music collection is stored on a PC or you use a network music client – Squeezebox™, SoundBridge™, Sonos™ etc - the difference in audible quality is incredible!"
 Then they go on to say:
 Once upsampled , the DacMagic offers both unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR outputs for the best quality analogue transfer.
 USG"


 I probably read it in the DacMagic thread. I know I read it somewhere. I will look to find the source. There is no way to select upsampling on or off. When I used the Marantz CDP as a transport it sampled at 44.1 and there was no choice. The three buttons on the DM, from left to right, are the power button, the source selection button and the filter/phase button. None of which offer a sampling choice. There are 5 LED's on the right of the front panel that will tell you the sampling rate (32, 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96), but again no option to choose. When I play my lossless (ripped from CD's into .wav) files out of the computer (with or without the Hiface) it plays them at 44.1.


 I will do my best to track down where I read that the DM only upsamples via it's balanced outputs. It's out there somewhere. LoL


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Yes, it depends on the upsampler & how it's implemented. The ESS Sabre DACs are not your usual upsampling technology! The message on my website is really to be careful when using a low jitter source with an upsampler - it will, as a generalisation, tend to limit the improvement that can be realised.


 

 I don't know the details of how the ESS Sabre chip upsamples, but that does not take away from the fact that it does upsample, and I understand that 'upsampling' forms a bottle neck to improvements that can be gained from a low jitter device.
   
  Regarding the stock HiFace: 
   
  I think it's a spin to say that *upsampling, as a generalization*, would *"tend to limit the improvement that can be realised," *unless by *'tend to limit'*, you mean *Masks and Prevents*, as in "masks the benefits of the low jitter output from the HiFace" and "will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realized."
   
  In any event, that has certainly been my experience in trying to use a stock HiFace with an upsampling DAC, and it certainly is *no reflection on you* or your modifications, that m2tech did not alert users to this serious limitation and instead produced a treble tilted, louder playing device designed to trick those with upsampling DACs into believing that the pseudo-details they heard from the 3db treble tilt was the sonic benefit of low jitter.
   
  USG
   
   
_*"There have been a few people who have reported that they hear no difference between the Hiface & other inputs to their DAC. In all cases the reason for this has been that they are using an upsampling DAC or an upsampling device before their DAC. This upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised. Please be aware of this issue & unless you can use the Hiface into your DAC without upsampling you may well experience the same!"*_


----------



## FauDrei

DM always upsamples to 24/192.
   
  RCA outputs are derived from XLR ones. Between XLR and RCA outputs there are just a couple of opamps (OP275) to bring RCA outputs level to the level of XLR outputs (thus quick&dirty tweak of using XLR2RCA adapter for better SE SQ, bypassing those two OP275).


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> 1. Improvements with the 15dB attenuator are most obvious with the bass, at least in my system.  Much better defined and deeper.  As I said earlier, it provides a more solid foundation to the music.  Tonality is very good as I can very clearly distinguish different notes on various instruments and the distinct sound of similar instruments, as an example bowing on string basses is much clearer and distinct even in complex passages (e.g. LSO with Abbado conducting Mendelssohn's 4th) .  The soundstage doesn't get wider but maybe a little deeper and the layering is quite good.  Imaging is also improved and the instruments occupy distinct places in space.  In a cursory comparison, hi rez files (96/24) seem to be better in all of these areas.
> 2.  I compared the modded hiface with or without the use of the attenuator.  I no longer have a stock unit and admittedly I have no experience with other transports as I have been happy with the modded hiface unit.  Frankly, my original reason for getting the stock Hiface was that it was inexpensive and it allowed me to use software such as Pure Music that can do automatic sample rate switching and play Hi Rez music files natively.  I never expected a large change in the sound. The stock HiFace from what I can remember was a bit better than the optical out on my macbook.  When I read the reviews about JK Hiface I just had to try it (for ~$160 for the mod it was worth the gamble).  I'm glad that I did. The attenuator is just icing on the cake.


 

 Thank you for your concise description. 
   
  How did it do with the tinkley stuff on the top?  Did it do anything to the volume level? 
   
  I can understand how the bass can become more defined as reflections are eliminated, but I'm not sure how it could become deeper?  Perhaps the bass just seemed deeper because it was more articulated?  Maybe Regal can weigh in on this because there still is an upsampling bottle neck?
   
  I didn't realize you were only talking about the mod, which I understand is quite good.  Which one did you get, btw?

  
  Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by upstateguy
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I quoted directly from the* Cambridgeaudio web site*. 
   
  I'll post the link again, in case you missed it in the previous post.....   http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320
   
  So now that we see that the DacMagic upsamples both balanced and single ended, you have the same issue I do,  regarding the "masked" benefits of a low jitter transport.
   
  So the question to you is this:  Is it possible that the improvements you're hearing, are actually the pseudo-details from a +3db treble tilted sound signature?
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I don't know the details of how the ESS Sabre chip upsamples, but that does not take away from the fact that it does upsample, and I understand that 'upsampling' forms a bottle neck to improvements that can be gained from a low jitter device.
> 
> Regarding the stock HiFace:
> 
> ...


 

 I was going to bite my tongue & stay out of this but you really are going too far.
   
  You are full of ire for M2tech, it seems & now miss no opportunity to try to denigrate them even if it's based on half-understood statements.
   
  My statement on my website says "a *few *people have reported ..." - you proceed to blow this up into " m2tech did not alert users to this serious limitation and instead produced a treble tilted, louder playing device designed to trick those with upsampling DACs into believing that the pseudo-details they heard from the 3db treble tilt was the sonic benefit of low jitter."
   
  Good god man, get a grip! Do you not see how hysterical this is?
   
  You don't understand what upsampling is & yet you are levelling accusations at a manufacturer based on your made-up reasoning. The reason I said that it was a generalisation is that it won't apply to all upsampling DACs - I was hoping that you might have picked up on this!
   
  You overestimate the importance of head-fi to M2tech - do you have any idea of their total sales Vs sales from head-fi? You will find that it is a trickle believe me!
   
  Your statement about the recall proving that M2tech is "guilty" of something is laughable! Firstly do you have definite assurance that M2tech are doing a recall or is it just a distributor that's doing it? Secondly, it could be simply to keep some unreasonable customers happy!
   
  I guess if you are determined to sully the name of M2tech regardless then I'm not sure what will happen next.
   
  Please be more reasonable in what you say & don't use my mis-understood statements as fodder for your ranting. I'm taking down that text form my site as it's being abused!
   
  The bass is an improvement because when one lowers jitter (by using an attenuator), the first place that it is heard is in the bass area which gains more focus - this tends to translate into bass heft & texture, just as Bubu1 described & not some further accusation against M2tech. You are really wearing out that record! The fact of the matter is that he has a DAcmagic DAC (upsampling) & has no problem with masking of details - so you see my statement is a generalisation & doesn't apply in all cases


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Thank you for your concise description.
> 
> How did it do with the tinkley stuff on the top?  Did it do anything to the volume level?
> 
> ...


 

 USG,
  You're welcome.  The upper registers sound good to me with the modded unit and seem a bit more natural after adding the attenuator.  To me there is just the right amount of sparkle!  As far as the volume goes, the only thing I have to compare to is the optical out on my Macbook and to my ears there doesn't seem to an obvious volume difference.
   
  I guess by deeper I mean that the lower registers are very well rendered more prominent and not lost in the mix;  perhaps your description is better.  I can literally feel the lower octaves in my jaw bones when they are there and I don't listen at high levels (probably lower than most).  It is quite striking. 
   
  I have John's boxed mod and I really like it.  If you have a chance to listen to a modded unit do so. You will not be disappointed.  I agree with Regal's assessment that the battery modded unit is quite exceptional and can probably compete with much more expensive transports!
   
  I'm a bit confused about the upsampling bottleneck as I would think that putting cleaner signal in would be a benefit as there would be less "work" for the upsampling circuitry to do to clean up and reduce jitter.


----------



## baka1969

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FauDrei  
 " DM always upsamples to 24/192.
 RCA outputs are derived from XLR ones. Between XLR and RCA outputs there are just a couple of opamps ( OP275) to bring RCA outputs level to the level of XLR outputs (thus quick&dirty tweak of using XLR2RCA adapter for better SE SQ, bypassing those two OP275)."


 So why does it indicate I'm playing at 44.1? Maybe I'm confused somewhere along the chain?


----------



## FauDrei

Because those leds are input sample rate indicators.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> *I was going to bite my tongue & stay out of this *but you really are going too far.
> <snip>
> 
> *The reason I said that it was a generalisation is that* *it won't apply to all upsampling DACs** -* I was hoping that you might have picked up on this!
> ...


 

 Let me start by saying that the last thing I wanted was to have an argument with you John, since I specifically didn't involve you or your modifications in what I said and feel you offer a respectable product at a fair price.
   
  I am a consumer and  I am posting about a product I bought.   In this case I am the opposite of a fanboy, but no less valid.
   
  That you have involved yourself, as a member of the trade, speaks for itself.
   
  To that end, I have no intention of engaging you in a manner that might close the thread.
   
  But, never the less, *you raised an interesting question*. You say in your web statement:
   
_*"This upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the Hiface & will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realised. Please be aware of this issue & unless you can use the Hiface into your DAC without upsampling you may well experience the same!*_*"  *
   
  But then you go on to say in your post that* "**it won't apply to all upsampling DACs." *
   
  I'm sure more than a few of us would like to know *which* DACs you're referring to, *and more importantly*, what is it about those DACs that makes them immune to the upsampling bottleneck (other than a bypass switch of course)? 
  (Please don't cite anecdotal reports as evidence, as they have little meaning in the scientific world).
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

USG, it was just a note of caution & yes it was anecdotal, not scientific - every statement of fact doesn't have to be scientific - it might lead to some conclusions eventually but I was simply reporting my findings. I have since taken it down.
   
  I keep getting this MOT tag thrown back at me over any posting that isn't liked & frankly I'm fed up hearing this. If posters can't differentiate between information that's meant to help them in their audio quest from information that is just marketing then I give up. Judging by this thread & the "sensitive" thread, I don't feel that there is an open-minded attitude displayed here so I'm un-subscribing & will not be giving any information out in future - it has been a thankless & pointless exercise - I wish I could say it has been emotional  
   
  In future all my posts will be of a marketing nature - starting with - there is a review due this weekend from enjoythemusic that compares the stock, modified, Evo Hifaces together with the Halide Bridge & Audiophileo. It will be much more in-depth (& informative) than the positive feedback article! Enjoy!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> USG, it was just a note of caution & yes it was anecdotal, not scientific - every statement of fact doesn't have to be scientific - it might lead to some conclusions eventually but I was simply reporting my findings. I have since taken it down.
> 
> I keep getting this MOT tag thrown back at me over any posting that isn't liked & frankly I'm fed up hearing this. If posters can't differentiate between information that's meant to help them in their audio quest from information that is just marketing then I give up. Judging by this thread & the "sensitive" thread, I don't feel that there is an open-minded attitude displayed here so I'm un-subscribing & will not be giving any information out in future - it has been a thankless & pointless exercise - I wish I could say it has been emotional
> 
> *In future all my posts will be of a marketing nature *- starting with - there is a review due this weekend from enjoythemusic that compares the stock, modified, Evo Hifaces together with the Halide Bridge & Audiophileo. It will be much more in-depth (& informative) than the positive feedback article! Enjoy!


 

 LOL, that's actually pretty funny. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  USG


----------



## Zorlac

Oooh! Cant wait to read this one.  
  
  Quote: 





jkeny said:


> ...there is a review due this weekend from enjoythemusic that compares the stock, modified, Evo Hifaces together with the Halide Bridge & Audiophileo. It will be much more in-depth (& informative) than the positive feedback article! Enjoy!


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Oooh! Cant wait to read this one.


 

 Sorry, it appears I'm wrong - the article is written & being submitted today but I believe it won't appear until the 1st October


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Sorry, it appears I'm wrong - the article is written & being submitted today but I believe it won't appear until the 1st October


 

 Look forward to that comparisons. I have a stock HiFace but waiting for Evo reviews.


----------



## upstateguy

Still, the upsampling bottleneck remains a concern for current HiFace owners and future purchasers.
   
  Until someone is able to answer the question of *which upsampling DACs might be immune* to the masking effects of upsampling, *and what is it about those DACs that makes them immune, * we, as consumers, will  be on our own to look further into the following statement to see if there is any truth in it:
   
   
*That  upsampling will mask the benefits of the low jitter output from the HiFace and will prevent it's true sonic benefits from being realized.*
   
   
   
  Not content with the statement I found on jkeny's web site as my only source, I started to look around to see if any other manufacturers had posted information regarding the negative effects of upsampling on low jitter output devices.
   
  Sure enough, on the PS Audio site, I found a discussion of upsampling, and why, on their flagship DAC, The Perfect Wave, which, btw, has 6 choices of upsample rates, they chose to incorporate a by pass switch, called the "Native Mode", for playing low jitter digital signals.  [[[  the entire discussion can be found HERE and HERE   (to skip all the promotional stuff, start about 1/2 way down the page at *Sample Rate Converter (SRC)*) ]]]
   
  What they say is essentially this:   *The function of  upsampling is to remove jitter and if you run low jitter data through an upsampler, it will be sonically inferior to the same data with the upsampler turned off.      *.....So it looks like jkeny may have been essentially correct in his original statement.
   
  Maybe some of you can find additional information on the effects of upsampling low jitter data?
   
  USG


----------



## zenpunk

The idea that upsampling a low jitter source will degrade the sound is nonsense.There is no doubt that upsampling alter the sound (mainly by spreading jitter equally among samples so it is easily removed by the DAC) but you can't say it is inferior or superior. Some prefer the sound when upsampled (I do) while other would will do anything to make sure they get bit-perfect. Try both and choose the presentation you like the most and enjoy....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Looks like another case of audiophilia nervosa.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> *The idea that upsampling a low jitter source will degrade the sound is nonsense.*


 
   
   
  I think that was PS Audio's reason for placing a bypass switch on their Perfect Wave DAC. (see links in my post)
   
  I prefer "masks the benefits", as you stated in your 'sensitive information' post,* "So if you have a well designed upsampling DAC there is just no need for the hi-face as it it will bring no further benefit or increase in SQ." *
   
  But what I don't fully understand is *why* upsampling would *"mask"* or *"bring no further benefit"* to a low jitter source.
   
  USG


----------



## Pacha

to be deleted


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I think that was PS Audio's reason for placing a bypass switch on their Perfect Wave DAC. (see links in my post)
> 
> I prefer "masks the benefits", as you stated in your 'sensitive information' post,* "So if you have a well designed upsampling DAC there is just no need for the hi-face as it it will bring no further benefit or increase in SQ." *
> 
> ...


 
  USG,
  I did a little experiment at work yesterday comparing optical out on a macbook and imac to the modded hiface feeding a headroom ultra micro dac (it has undefeatable upsampling). I also compared the optical out to the modded hiface with a 15dB attenuator.  I was using my SE530's, an inexpensive coax cable from esoteric usa and an optical cable from lifatech.  The DAC has a manual switch that I can flip to optical or coax input.
  The setup I used included two computers with one computer feeding optical and the other feeding the Hiface and both coax and optical inputs of the DAC were simultaneously being fed signal.  Lest I be accused of not being thorough, I switched computers and checked my results and they were similar.  I had to sync iTunes/Pure music between the 2 computers and then changed inputs on the DAC as the tracks were playing.  This was no means a blind test.  
   
  First off, I did not hear any volume differences between inputs in this setup. The optical out of the Mac's and modded hiface were similar sounding; however it was clear that the presentation with the hiface was more organic and had a bit more dimensionality.  When I added the attenuator the sound improved a great deal.  The presentation became 3 dimensional and the tonality of the instruments was much better than without the att. or the optical input.  The reverberation within the recording venue was revealed more clearly.  In addition there was a better lower end presentation that grounded the music and provided a more solid and satisfying experience.  I was listening to a redbook recording of Carmignola Vivaldi late violin concertos. 
   
  Even using this modest setup consisting of the ultra micro stack with SE530's, I was able to detect these differences.
   
  What I took away from this is that the attenuator helps as John has suggested by reducing reflections.  I have now tried 2 upsampling DACs and I can hear differences with the modded hiface feeding the DAC's  compared at least with optical out. The sound improves greatly by including the attenuator in the HIface setup!!!!!  In my experience, the benefits of feeding good (presumably low jitter) digital signal to an upsampling DAC can be heard but it becomes extremely obvious and clear with the addition of  the attenuator. As has been stated by Regal in other posts, using the attenuator makes the battery modded hiface a phenomenal transport!!


----------



## zenpunk

I find very strange that adding an attenuator can improve the sound so much. Logic suggest than any digital coaxial connection should benefit from adding one of those. How comes no company came up with a cable with a built-in attenuator?
  I probably shouldn't have said that as few cable companies will start selling those for few hundreds...If they happen to work..or not


----------



## Shahrose

Someone needs to check if all coaxial outputs can be made to sound good with merely an attenuator. What if we don't even need the modded HiFace?


----------



## Bubu1

I don't blame you guys for being doubtful.  I have no way to substantiate what I'm saying. I don't have the technical knowledge or equipment to test cables outputs etc.
  John has explained elsewhere why he thinks using an attenuator works for the HiFace.  I just tried it and found that it improved the sound.  I don't think that this will work for all transports or digital cables as the Hiface has higher output voltage than spec'd for SPDIF coax and that's why the attenuator trick works.  I spent $40 to try this and I think it was worth it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> USG,
> I did a little experiment at work yesterday comparing optical out on a macbook and imac to the modded hiface feeding a headroom ultra micro dac (it has undefeatable upsampling). I also compared the optical out to the modded hiface with a 15dB attenuator.  I was using my SE530's, an inexpensive coax cable from esoteric usa and an optical cable from lifatech.  The DAC has a manual switch that I can flip to optical or coax input.
> The setup I used included two computers with one computer feeding optical and the other feeding the Hiface and both coax and optical inputs of the DAC were simultaneously being fed signal.  Lest I be accused of not being thorough, I switched computers and checked my results and they were similar.  I had to sync iTunes/Pure music between the 2 computers and then changed inputs on the DAC as the tracks were playing.  This was no means a blind test.
> 
> ...


 

 That was a very neat little test you set up Bubu.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Just to be clear, you're saying that the *volume* out of your macbook's optical connection and the *volume* USB of the modified HiFace from the same computer, when played through the headroom ultra micro dac were  exactly the same?
   
  I think it was on DIYiIFi that an attenuator was first demonstrated to have an effect with the HiFace.  I don't recall, however, that the effect was anything more than a rounding out the edges.
   
  Btw, were you using long cables or short cables?
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> I don't blame you guys for being doubtful.  I have no way to substantiate what I'm saying. I don't have the technical knowledge or equipment to test cables outputs etc.
> John has explained elsewhere why he thinks using an attenuator works for the HiFace.  I just tried it and found that it improved the sound.  I don't think that this will work for all transports or digital cables as the Hiface has higher output voltage than spec'd for SPDIF coax and that's why the attenuator trick works.  I spent $40 to try this and I think it was worth it.


 

 I meant to ask you *why *you're talking about the efficacy of using an attenuator?
   
  JosephK posted about it in DIYHiFi.org back in June.
   
  This is what he said:  regarding the high output level fromthe HiFace. * THREAD LOCATED HERE*
   
  "This same high level also permits the* "Jocko" trick* to be applied, that is padding the line. It permits to fit in a 75ohm 10dB attenuator, with still a lot of headroom left. And the 75ohm padding makes simply wonders, at least for me.. It restores the the proper termination at least at one side in the line, so the energy is absorbed much quicker.
 I use it at the receiver end. In theory it would need a BNC input on the dac, ( I have it like that) but it works also if you fit a bnc/RCA converter AFTER it.
 Like: SPDIF line with 75ohm BNC conn.-> 10dB att. -> BNC to RCA converter -> DAC with RCA socket."
   
  USG


----------



## Bubu1

USG,
  Thanks for the compliment!
   
  I guess I'm talking about the attenuator because I'm surprised how well it worked for me.  Just thought I would share my experience and my enthusiasm for this little tweak.  I take my hat off to the guys who you credited with originally coming up with the idea. I asked John about my observation with the attenuator and he said that his experience was similar.
   
  You are correct about the volume. That was my assessment based on my hearing and not on any measurements.  Take it for what it's worth. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  The cables I used were both 1 meter.
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I meant to ask you *why *you're talking about the efficacy of using an attenuator?
> 
> JosephK posted about it in DIYHiFi.org back in June.
> 
> ...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> USG,
> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> I guess I'm talking about the attenuator because I'm surprised how well it worked for me.  Just thought I would share my experience and my enthusiasm for this little tweak.  I take my hat off to the guys who you credited with originally coming up with the idea. I asked John about my observation with the attenuator and he said that his experience was similar.
> ...


 
   
  I wonder if you'd come over to the HiFace, sensitive information thread where I'm discussing the exact same macbook volume issue with aimlink.  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503323/hiface-sensitive-information/300
  
  USG


----------



## sleepy dan

It depends on the quality of the implementation of the upsampling.  The ideal upsampler would a) eliminate incoming jitter, b) not add any jitter of it's own and c) not add artifacts from the sample rate conversion.  However no upsampler is perfect in any of these regards.
   
  So, and ideal with an ideal upsampler, fitting the best or worst transport in the world would make no difference.  A poorer upsampler will let through significant amounts of jitter, making differences more audible.  But it may also mask differences by adding jitter/artifacts of its own.
   
  Clearly it's not a simple issue, and there is no easy way to determine the amount of benefit that will be obtained short of testing for oneself.  My personal experience has been that even very good upsamplers can benefit from a lower jitter source.  Hope this sheds some light on the matter.
   
   
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> ... and I understand that 'upsampling' forms a bottle neck to improvements that can be gained from a low jitter device.


----------



## sleepy dan

Do you have any measurements for this 3dB treble tilt, or is it  just a guess?
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> In any event, that has certainly been my experience in trying to use a stock HiFace with an upsampling DAC, and it certainly is *no reflection on you* or your modifications, that m2tech did not alert users to this serious limitation and instead produced a treble tilted, louder playing device designed to trick those with upsampling DACs into believing that the pseudo-details they heard from the 3db treble tilt was the sonic benefit of low jitter.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> It depends on the quality of the implementation of the upsampling.  The ideal upsampler would a) eliminate incoming jitter, b) not add any jitter of it's own and c) not add artifacts from the sample rate conversion.  However no upsampler is perfect in any of these regards.
> 
> So, and ideal with an ideal upsampler, fitting the best or worst transport in the world would make no difference.  A poorer upsampler will let through significant amounts of jitter, making differences more audible.  But it may also mask differences by adding jitter/artifacts of its own.
> 
> Clearly it's not a simple issue, and there is no easy way to determine the amount of benefit that will be obtained short of testing for oneself.  My personal experience has been that *even very good upsamplers can benefit from a lower jitter source. * Hope this sheds some light on the matter.


 
   
  Hummm,  what you say makes sense, but PS Audio seems to think that with a low jitter source (or no jitter as they 'claim' their transport can produce), the upsampled data stream is sonically inferior to one that is bypassed..... (and this with their top of the line DAC.)


  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Do you have any measurements for this 3dB treble tilt, or is it  just a guess?


 

 IIRC it came from a CA Legato review that I linked to a few pages back.  Let me know if you can't find it.
   
  There was also a short discussion of the HF "playing louder", either in this thread or the "sensitive information" thread.
   
  To be accurate,  the treble tilt is the observation of many people I've talk to about the (stock) HiFace (including myself), playing  3dbs louder comes from the Legato review.... (also the stock HF.)
   
  I've done some pretty extensive comparisons with the Blue Circle Thingee which I had before the HiFace and I've done similar comparisons with forum members at some of the meets.  The upshot is that the USB Thingee pretty much sounds exactly like optical or coaxial into the Stello and Benchmark I DACs as well as  the North Star, Constantine and Stello on my home rigs.  By sounds pretty much the same I mean that there is no tonal shift (bass or treble accentuation) to the sound as compared to previously mentioned DACs other inputs.  This is not the case with the HiFace, which is immediately noticed to be treble tilted and bass light,  when compared via quick switching,  to the  neutral rendition of the  Thingee.
   
  The HF treble tilt is a bitter pill to swallow  for those who have perceived extra detail a the top,  but when you combine a treble tilt with a volume boost, the result is the same kind of perceived "pseudo details" that can reproduced by boosting the volume and EQing the treble of a neutral transport like the BCT.
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

USG,
  Can you show this by playing a frequency sweep through the Hiface & through the Thingee & recording the outputs from both. This can be analysed for differences. This should show the frequency lift that you claim. At the moment it's anecdotal. Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong but perceptions aren't always accurately translated into a technical description such as yours "3db HF lift"


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> I find very strange that adding an attenuator can improve the sound so much. Logic suggest than any digital coaxial connection should benefit from adding one of those. How comes no company came up with a cable with a built-in attenuator?
> I probably shouldn't have said that as few cable companies will start selling those for few hundreds...If they happen to work..or not


 

 Will an attenuator as this one from Harrison Labs work?


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Will an attenuator as this one from Harrison Labs work?


 

 No! This is not an RF attenuator!
  Why not buy one of the minicircuit ones I recommended over on the DIY thread - it's $12 ?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> No! This is not an RF attenuator!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 After some sleuthing and fortune, I happened across your post here  which took me here .  I'll get me one of those.  May as well go that extra since it's relatively inexpensive.  Not to mention I've never tried an attenuator and your explanation was well written.  Even an ignoramus as myself understood it!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit: BTW, I'll need a couple adaptors for this thing to work with my RCA Modded HiFace.  Looks like I'll need a male RCA to female BNC to connect the attenuator to the HiFace and then a male BNC to female RCA to use with my coaxial cable.  Should these adaptors be the same 75 ohms.  I see that they have a resistance rating.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> USG,
> Can you show this by playing a frequency sweep through the Hiface & through the Thingee & recording the outputs from both. This can be analysed for differences. This should show the frequency lift that you claim. At the moment it's anecdotal. Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong but perceptions aren't always accurately translated into a technical description such as yours *"3db **HF** lift"  *


 
   
  When you use the letters *HF* do you mean *HiFace* or do you mean *high frequency*?
   
  [[  Btw, glad to have you back on board ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 looks like you got over the, * "I'm un-subscribing... "* and * "In future all my posts will be of a marketing nature." *





   ]]


----------



## mmerrill99

I keep forgetting yours is a Mac. On the PC there is a Kernel Streaming audio stream (KS) & a Direct Sound audio stream (DS). The Hiface can use either stream - the KS is far superior to DS sound! I don't know if there is equivalent on the Mac?
   
  Quote: 





> - An iMac connected to a vDAC is different from an iMac connected to an Ultra Desktop.


 
  Yes but it is showing that optical out is clearly inferior to USB Hiface out in this configuration.
   
  It boils down to this:
  Either your sound is fantastic from the optical out & the Hiface is no improvement on this
  OR
  Your sound is not fantastic BUT the Hiface still sounds the same
   
  If it's the first option above then we are wasting our time trying to improve anything but I believe it's the later & am trying to investigate it & show you that something is wrong in your system. Try the attenuators (get a 6 & 10dB one) & this will show you if it's your SPDIF cable. But if it is then your cable must be really terrible to make it sound as bad as optical out.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> I keep forgetting yours is a Mac. On the PC there is a Kernel Streaming audio stream (KS) & a Direct Sound audio stream (DS). The Hiface can use either stream - the KS is far superior to DS sound! I don't know if there is equivalent on the Mac?
> 
> Yes but it is showing that optical out is clearly inferior to USB Hiface out in this configuration.
> 
> ...


 
   
  In your boils down to possibilities, you left out one possibility:
   
  The UltraDesktop's Upsampling is making the Optical out sound great and the HiFace also sounds great, but not audibly better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  We aren't sure about the contribution of the UltraDesktop DAC's upsampling to the Optical output's overall performance.  You seem inclined to think that the DAC's upsampling and jitter handling routine isn't that good and that it's also stifling the HiFace.  While I agree that this is a possibility, in the interest of futile spending, I have to seriously entertain the possibility that the UltraDesktop's DAC's upsampling and dejitter routine are doing great with the optical out and bringing its performance up to an audible equivalent to the HiFace my ears.  We have a conflict here and I like that.  Good often comes out of conflicts.
   
  I've decided to go with the attenuator since it's a curious option that I have an interest in and don't mind fiddling with for my own edification considering the reasonable cost.


----------



## mmerrill99

Quote: 





> In your boils down to possibilities, you left out one possibility:
> 
> 
> 
> The UltraDesktop's Upsampling is making the Optical out sound great and the HiFace also sounds great, but not audibly better.


 
  That's exactly what my first possibility is! So are you saying that the optical out sounds fantastic or just OK  (& therefore the modified HIface)? 
   
  What you are always coming back to is this - that the Ultradesktop's upsampling is making all your inputs equal sounding - now the question is - is this equally fantastic or equally mediocre (or somewhere in-between).
   
  You see what I'm getting at:
  Either you are hearing the best sound possible because your upsampler is doing a fabulous job on all inputs
  OR
  You are hearing all inputs the same but it's not the best sound possible


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> That's exactly what my first possibility is! So are you saying that the optical out sounds fantastic or just OK  (& therefore the modified HIface)?
> 
> What you are always coming back to is this - that the Ultradesktop's upsampling is making all your inputs equal sounding - now the question is - is this equally fantastic or equally mediocre (or somewhere in-between).
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   Is a DAC's sound reproduction determined only by jitter control, where-ever that happens?  How much difference in jitter is genuinely audible?

 In terms of *jitter control*, I'm proposing that it could well be the best audible sound reproduction possible. This is exactly what I'm saying.  However, in terms of DAC performance, it may well not be the best sound reproduction possible.


----------



## Pacha

The attenuator from minicircuits is rated at a very decent price ($12), unfortunately shipping costs for the lowest priced shipping solution is $92!!
  I've asked them to ship via EMS for cheap, they agreed, but it's still $29!
  Did you guys managed to have these lightweight attenuators shipped for a decent price?


----------



## sleepy dan

I found the article and could find no measurements of a deviation in frequency response.  This isn't surprising, as there is no way a bit perfect device can alter either the volume or the frequency response.  saying otherwise is like saying two identical objects are different - i.e. a logical contradiction.
   
  The reason I mention this is that saying there is a 3dB treble tilt implies some objective measurement has been made, when clearly there hasn't, and it's very important not to "twist" or put "spin" on things, as you reminded Jkeny.
   
  What is possible is that someone perceives the Hiface as being brighter as it has a different jitter spectrum than what they are used to.  It is well know that low frequency jitter makes the sound fatter.  The CA measurements show the Hiface to have low levels of jitter, particularly at low frequencies.  So, if one is used to listening to transports that sound fatter than neutral due to low frequency jitter, it's plausible that switching to the Hiface alters the balance of the whole system to sound thinner.  But of course it's wrong to blame the Hiface for sounding "thin".
   
  Again, there is no treble tilt or volume boost with the Hiface, and if you believe otherwise the best thing to do is educate yourself on the issue at hand .... or just listen to something else that gives you more enjoyment.  But making uniinformed objective claims helps no-one.
   

  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> IIRC it came from a CA Legato review that I linked to a few pages back.  Let me know if you can't find it.
> 
> There was also a short discussion of the HF "playing louder", either in this thread or the "sensitive information" thread.
> 
> ...


----------



## sleepy dan

No, there are many factors that determine the sound of a DAC.  Jitter is just one, but it is a big one.  Our ears are especially sensitive to it as it is generally non-harmonic.  How much is audible?  I'm afraid there is no simple answer to that.
   
  I'm not sure what you are referring to when you talk about "the best audible sound reproduction possible" .....?  If you want to really kill jitter, the best way is to have some kind of sync-lock between DAC and transport.  Upsampling also works, but is a compromise, although it can be a very good one if done well.
  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


>


 


> Is a DAC's sound reproduction determined only by jitter control, where-ever that happens?  How much difference in jitter is genuinely audible?
> 
> In terms of *jitter control*, I'm proposing that it could well be the best audible sound reproduction possible. This is exactly what I'm saying.  However, in terms of DAC performance, it may well not be the best sound reproduction possible.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> No, there are many factors that determine the sound of a DAC.  Jitter is just one, but it is a big one.  Our ears are especially sensitive to it as it is generally non-harmonic.  How much is audible?  I'm afraid there is no simple answer to that.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are referring to when you talk about "the best audible sound reproduction possible" .....?  If you want to really kill jitter, the best way is to have some kind of sync-lock between DAC and transport.  Upsampling also works, but is a compromise, although it can be a very good one if done well.


 

 I mean best audible sound reproduction that my DAC is capable of once jitter is reduced to a level where further reduction leads to minimal if any audible improvement.  It's not well established just how much jitter has to be present for us to detect it or any further reduction in it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> The reason I mention this is that saying there is a 3dB treble tilt implies some objective measurement has been made, when clearly there hasn't, and it's very important not to "twist" or put "spin" on things, as you reminded Jkeny.
> 
> 
> Again, there is no treble tilt or volume boost with the Hiface, and if you believe otherwise the best thing to do is *educate yourself on the issue *at hand .... or just listen to something else that gives you more enjoyment.  But making uniinformed objective claims helps no-one.


 
   
   
  Hi Sleepy
   
  That the HiFace plays louder is a reality. 
   
  There is a reason for this and I suggest you take your own advice and find out why.
   
  USG


----------



## mmerrill99

Unsupported claims, as usual, USG,. No matter how many people disagree with you & point out your lack of understanding, you still persist in this. What's your agenda here?


----------



## sleepy dan

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> Unsupported claims, as usual, USG,. No matter how many people disagree with you & point out your lack of understanding, you still persist in this. What's your agenda here?


 
   
  There is no loudness issue.  There is not treble tilt.  There is no mass recall.  The clock issue at best is highly dubious.  
   
  His agenda seems to be to spread misinformation, but why, who can guess.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

You guys are way too harsh on USG, he just shared his findings. Every system is different, may be his setup is on the bright side and hiface just revealed what was masked by Blue Circle, he also might be overly sensitive to high frequencies too. And just to remind everyone, it wasn't USG who brought up the clock issue first.


----------



## mmerrill99

Andrew, if all he was doing was reporting anomalies in his system with the use of the Hiface, then you would have a point BUT he is using every opportunity to lambast the Hiface & the company M2tech with unfounded & inaccurate statements. He has shown no interest in doing any test to prove his statement preferring to repeat, ad-nauseum, his false claims. I seem to remember you even asked what the agenda is. He has it up for sale anyway so why does he persist? Although why would anyone want to buy this obviously flawed device particularly for the $150 he is asking for it?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> .....why does he persist?


 

 Why do you persist? 
   
  Never mind, I know.  
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





jkeny said:


> * ..... false claims.*


 
   
    Now I guess I'll have to post this here as well.
   
*I suppose we should clear up some issues.*
   
*This is the e-mail that was sent to me from Mike at Tweak Geek:*
   
“M2Tech is replacing anybody's hiFace for new MEC clocked and firmwared hiFaces. I was told that even if someone thinks they have a hiFace with a small clock that they can exchange it . That makes sense since M2Tech did not want customers opening their hiFaces up.”
   
*Now let’s clear up why the HiFace plays louder.  The Legato review I linked to contains this post :  HERE*
   
Gang,
   
Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
Thanks
 Gordon
__________________ 
J. Gordon Rankin
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 Wavelength Audio


----------



## mmerrill99

Just continually repeating these things on various threads will not make them true.
  The answer to both of points is over on the other thread where you posted them http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503323/hiface-sensitive-information/345#post_6929290
  You are selling your Hiface - why not let all this go, it's leading you nowhere!


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Gang,
> 
> Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
> Thanks
> ...


 

  Fact is that a proper DAC will play 24 bit and 16 bit padded to 24 bit and plain 16 bit at the same level,  for example my AudioGN and AudioAlchemy DAC's have the same volume level whether the Hiface is the transport or any other product is the transport.  Thats what a good DAC does.  When you throw asynch upsampling (scrambling) in the mix instead of proper oversampling,  who knows what kind of volume differences will manifest.  The interface between the digital receiver and the upsampler or oversampling filter has to be set up just right to handle all bit depths,  I know I have set these up myself and it is not easy.  Budget DAC's sometimes don't get it perfect,  I've seen it.
   
  I guess what I am saying is the Hiface isn't meant for everyone,  you must have a decent DAC and amplifier for it to be worth the trouble and even then the Hiface should be modded.   If you own a DACMajic or other budget DAC stick with a budget transport,  really the very last thing you upgrade is the transport otherwise its just a painful worthless upgrade.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> Fact is that a proper DAC will play 24 bit and 16 bit padded to 24 bit and plain 16 bit at the same level,  for example my AudioGN and AudioAlchemy DAC's have the same volume level whether the Hiface is the transport or any other product is the transport.  Thats what a good DAC does.  When you throw asynch upsampling (scrambling) in the mix instead of proper oversampling,  who knows what kind of volume differences will manifest.  The interface between the digital receiver and the upsampler or oversampling filter has to be set up just right to handle all bit depths,  I know I have set these up myself and it is not easy.  Budget DAC's sometimes don't get it perfect,  I've seen it.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is the Hiface isn't meant for everyone,  you must have a decent DAC and amplifier for it to be worth the trouble and even then the Hiface should be modded.   If you own a DACMajic or other budget DAC stick with a budget transport,  really the very last thing you upgrade is the transport otherwise its just a painful worthless upgrade.


 

 I hear you Regal, and I'm not questioning what you say, but I have 3 DACS, up and running, none of which I would classify as budget DACs, with three different categories of amps, that I also wouldn't call budget amps and the HiFace plays louder in all of them, just they way it was reported in the Legato review I linked to. And it can't be discounted that in the Legato review, that the HiFace was noted to play louder enough (than the Legato), that they were talking about it....  and this with a 5K Berkley Alpha DAC.   Then there was the post by Gordon Rankin.  Was that complete BS or was there something to what he said, because I would sure like to believe that he wasn't BSing the forum with pseudo-science?  In addition, the same "playing louder"  was also mentioned by Shahrose and Digger, who also don't' have budget amps or DACs either, so I find it quite confusing when I try to understand the technicality of what's going on.
   
  On another note, I dragged out the HiFace and connected it to my Stello DAC which has defeatable upampling.  As I toggled back and forth between upsampling and bypass I could tell that you were absolutely right about upsampling being a bottle neck.  There is no question that upsampling seems to neutralize (for lack of a better word) what ever benefits the stock HiFace has to offer and curiously, the upsampling mode made the sound slightly quieter, or more mellow and uniform, which is the opposite of the way it usually works.  But in general,  the sound was still on the treble tilted side of neutral and the tone seemed off on the pianos because of it.
   
  I also know that you feel the treble tilt that I'm experiencing with the HF is  because I'm used to listening to low level jitter, but never the less, it's as present as "the playing louder" phenomena and I'm hard pressed to say that one isn't caused by, or is the effect of, the other.  And regarding what I'm used to listening to, I listened to Nate's 150lb Menace rig at one of the NY meets and it sounded exceptionally good, so I think I know good when I hear it, it's just that I don't think I'm hearing good when I use the unmodded HiFace.
   
  It's troubling that the stock HiFace seems to do better with my NOS Constantine and Stello (with upsampling off) than it does with the North Star which was specifically purchased for the usb needy, secondary, laptop rig.
   
  Now that I've covered all the things you don't agree with,   what's your take on the small clock - large clock issue.  Do you think the small clock is sonically inferior to the large clock or do you think, as some have said, that there is no sonic difference between the two?
   
  USG


----------



## regal

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> It's troubling that the stock HiFace seems to do better with my NOS Constantine and Stello (with upsampling off) than it does with the North Star which was specifically purchased for the usb needy, secondary, laptop rig.
> 
> Now that I've covered all the things you don't agree with,   what's your take on the small clock - large clock issue.  Do you think the small clock is sonically inferior to the large clock or do you think, as some have said, that there is no sonic difference between the two?
> 
> USG


 


 First keep this in mind,  for the average DAC under a few grand in price it is much easier to implement NOS properly,  that is one of the reasons NOS became popular.
   
  As far as the clock issue,  see the clock thread for my take on it.  I will never buy another Hiface product until Mr. Marco is "redeployed" some where else.
   
  Rankin's claim would be 8 bits shifted where 1 bit is 6dB,  so that would be a 48 dB difference!  Obviously the hiface volume difference some of you are hearing isn't the difference between load headphones and a jet taking off (48 dB),  so yes his claim is a bit off from the science of digital audio,  I'm sure he would clear up his statement to be exactly as I said,  some DAC's don't handle the padding correctly.
   
  As far a the treble tilt,  I just don't hear it at all.  And the fact that my DTS decoding receiver decodes a DTS encoded signal from the Hiface proves that it is a physical impossibility,  I'm sorry but I will never by into that one.  I have seen DAC's handle volume poorly usually as I said in getting the format correct from the reciever chip,  so I believe you on that but you are blaming the wrong device.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

I agree, in digital the maximum level is 0dBFS that is the maximum value of a sample, 65k at 16bit and 16M at 24bit, the number of bits defines the dynamic range which is 96dB and 144dB (the 0 sample is -96dBFS  and -144dBFS accordingly). 0dBFS should produce the same analog maximum level so this "hiFace is 3dB louder because it's 24bit not 16" doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





regal said:


> I will never buy another Hiface product until Mr. Marco is "redeployed" some where else.


 

 MWUAHAHAHA, reading your posts about M2Tech one could think that poor Marco is --- Dr. Evil!!!


----------



## Dynobot

I have a question...
   
  In what year, if ever will M2Tech come out with Linux drivers???
   
  Are there any companies that have a Asynch USB device for Linux???


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Are there any companies that have a Asynch USB device for Linux???


 

 The Audiophilleo models work with Linux. Presumably the ones that don't need drivers - Legato, Bridge, Wavelength, do as well.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> I agree, in digital the maximum level is 0dBFS that is the maximum value of a sample, 65k at 16bit and 16M at 24bit, the number of bits defines the dynamic range which is 96dB and 144dB (the 0 sample is -96dBFS  and -144dBFS accordingly). 0dBFS should produce the same analog maximum level so this "hiFace is 3dB louder because it's 24bit not 16" doesn't make any sense to me.


 

 I PM'd Gordon Rankin about this.  I'm curious to see what he says.
   
  USSG


----------



## upstateguy

This is Gordon Rankin's reply: 
   
*Eric,*
   
*In the future, just send me an email. 16 bit data is shifted 8 bits to make 24 bit data and that's the reason.*
   
*Thanks
 Gordon*
   
   
  My expertise on *why the HiFace plays louder* ends with asking the question.
   
  I would like to believe that Gordon Rankin knows what he's talking about when he says, "that;s  the reason" the HiFace plays louder.
   
  In any event, make of this what you will, because the reason _why_ the HiFace plays louder was never the issue.
   
  USG


----------



## Pacha

Did you guys managed to order an attenuator from minicircuits for a decent shipping price?
  They replied me that shipping with EMS for $29 instead of their ridiculous $92 with UPS is possible but since then no reply.
   
  Attenuators price is very decent but shipping price is stupid...


----------



## wuwhere

Yup, they charged me $9 for shipping, UPS ground. But I'm in FL, USA.
  
  Quote: 





pacha said:


> Did you guys managed to order an attenuator from minicircuits for a decent shipping price?
> They replied me that shipping with EMS for $29 instead of their ridiculous $92 with UPS is possible but since then no reply.
> 
> Attenuators price is very decent but shipping price is stupid...


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





pacha said:


> Did you guys managed to order an attenuator from minicircuits for a decent shipping price?
> They replied me that shipping with EMS for $29 instead of their ridiculous $92 with UPS is possible but since then no reply.
> 
> Attenuators price is very decent but shipping price is stupid...


 


 Pacha, which one do you want to get? I might have a couple of extra ones, I bought 2 10db and 2 6db.  I think I will keep a 10 and a 6.  PM me if interested...


----------



## Pacha

PM sent. Thank you very much.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> This is Gordon Rankin's reply:
> 
> *Eric,*
> 
> ...


 

 He may mean that if a DAC expects 24bit data, the 16bit sample gets padded with 0s at the bottom so the original maximum value becomes maximum-256. And this -256 would be -3dB? He must know what he's talking about, he's the guru.


----------



## ccbass

Can anybody explain why the DACMagic does not do well with the Hiface?
   
  I'm really in need of a USB to RCA Coaxial converter.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





ccbass said:


> Can anybody explain why the DACMagic does not do well with the Hiface?
> 
> I'm really in need of a USB to RCA Coaxial converter.


 
   
  Hi ccbass,
  Some are using the HiFace to improve the sound of their system.  Some are using it for your purpose, i.e., in that you need a USB to RCA Coaxial converter.  For your personal need, you'll find that the HiFace works a treat and I'd highly recommend it.
   
  However, if you're looking out for an improvement in sound as well, then that's another matter.  You may or may not hear one, even with the DacMagic.
  If you hear an improvement in sound, that's great since it's apparently expected.  However, if you don't, this is apparently not what should be and the main argument that would be given for this is that the DacMagic is an upsampling DAC.
   
  Apparently, upsampling can be deleterious to the quality of an already highly jitter free signal.  Just how deleterious this is and whether or not this is at all audible in all setups is left to be settled.
   
  I'm personally on the skeptic side in that I too have an upsampling DAC.  My HiFace works well, but it doesn't improve on the optical output from my iMac.  They both sound great to me and I'm not really surprised with my findings, to be honest.  A lot of claims are being made, but with very little backup through controlled testing.
   
  So if you really need the rca coaxial interface, then go for it.  If you don't really need it and are trying to tweak your system's sound further, then your mileage will vary.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





> A lot of claims are being made, but with very little backup through controlled testing.


 


 The testing was done years ago,  it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how it applies today.
   
http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/index4.html


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





regal said:


> The testing was done years ago,  it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how it applies today.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/index4.html


 
   
  I found this paragraph from your referenced article to be quite fascinating.  It reads:
   
   


> [size=small]_I repeated these measurements using a prototype jitter-reduction box that uses the new __Analog Devices AD1890 Asynchronous Sampling Rate Converter chip described in last May's "Industry Update" (Vol.16 No.5, p.41). The prototype box, designed by Bob Katz (Digital Domain, Chesky__), greatly reduced the jitter of high-jitter sources (from 4250ps to 45ps—an order of magnitude greater reduction than the DTI), and very slightly degraded the low-jitter Lambda (from 32ps to 42ps). All jitter-reduction devices are, however, limited by the fact that their reduced-jitter outputs must still then pass through another jitter-inducing interface between their output and the digital processor._[/size]


 
   
   
[size=small]Firstly, the sample converter in the UltraDesktop Amp uses the AD1896 chip and I should be able to conclude the possibility that it could be impressively lowering jitter in my alternate transport options from my iMac such as the optical out.  Secondly, do we have good evidence that a change in jitter from 32ps to 42ps is actually audible?[/size]


----------



## leeperry

aimlink said:


> [size=small]a change in jitter from 32ps to 42ps is actually audible?[/size]


 
   
  night and day.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> night and day.


 

 LOL....You and Steve with your super hearing.  SETI has a job for you....


----------



## macrog

Quote: 





ccbass said:


> Can anybody explain why the DACMagic does not do well with the Hiface?
> 
> I'm really in need of a USB to RCA Coaxial converter.


 

 I had the hiface on my dacmagic and thought it was a great improvement. The usb input on the dacmagic was shocking and clearly outperformed by Musiland monitor 02us


----------



## ccbass

I'm looking for a better connection to my DACMagic.  If sound quality increases, then great, but I'm really just interested in a better connection.
   
  Toslink is giving me crap with anything over 48khz sample rate.  And given that I have a few hours of 24/96, it really doesn't help that I need to hold the toslink cable perfectly for it to work. 
   
  I'll probably buy this next month because I'm sick of dicking around with the cable to listen to better quality music.
  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Hi ccbass,
> Some are using the HiFace to improve the sound of their system.  Some are using it for your purpose, i.e., in that you need a USB to RCA Coaxial converter.  For your personal need, you'll find that the HiFace works a treat and I'd highly recommend it.
> 
> However, if you're looking out for an improvement in sound as well, then that's another matter.  You may or may not hear one, even with the DacMagic.
> ...


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





ccbass said:


> I'm looking for a better connection to my DACMagic.  If sound quality increases, then great, but I'm really just interested in a better connection.
> 
> Toslink is giving me crap with anything over 48khz sample rate.  And given that I have a few hours of 24/96, it really doesn't help that I need to hold the toslink cable perfectly for it to work.
> 
> I'll probably buy this next month because I'm sick of dicking around with the cable to listen to better quality music.


 
   
  You should find that the HiFace works well for you so I'd go for it.  Even if the DacMagic holds it back a bit, this shouldn't deter you from getting one from the reason you describe.   Are you using a Mac or Windows?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> night and day.


 

 I'm sure..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  From that article, I can now confirm that it's entirely possible that a DAC is making the HiFace sound the same as an alternative transport method and yet they both sound great without any appreciable degradation in sound quality of the HiFace.  Unless a 10ps jitter difference is easily audible.


----------



## volume

Quote: 





ccbass said:


> I'm looking for a better connection to my DACMagic.  If sound quality increases, then great, but I'm really just interested in a better connection.
> 
> Toslink is giving me crap with anything over 48khz sample rate.  And given that I have a few hours of 24/96, it really doesn't help that I need to hold the toslink cable perfectly for it to work.
> 
> I'll probably buy this next month because I'm sick of dicking around with the cable to listen to better quality music.


 


 I would also recommend the audio-gd Digital Interface


----------



## Currawong

I would recommend getting a better DAC.


----------



## ccbass

Mac.   OSX obviously.
  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> You should find that the HiFace works well for you so I'd go for it.  Even if the DacMagic holds it back a bit, this shouldn't deter you from getting one from the reason you describe.   Are you using a Mac or Windows?


 


 I'll take a look!
  
  Quote: 





volume said:


> I would also recommend the audio-gd Digital Interface


 


 Hey, don't rip on my DAC!  I'm looking at having some upgrades done to it!  And for $380 its price/performance is damn good.
  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> I would recommend getting a better DAC.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I would recommend getting a better DAC.


 


 I agree,  I see posts with people buying this Hiface that shouldn't.   You should have a good DAC first.  And don't judge your DAC's by the costs of Audio-GD's !  The Audio-gd lineup could easily have $2k added their price (the PCM1704'd) and probably will as they gain recognition.


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I would recommend getting a better DAC.


 

 How about those of us who just want to make sure we get bit-perfect source out of our computers?  I'm not talking hiface in particular, but any of these new usb transports which bypass the internal sound card.  This is what led me to this forum and to getting the hiface.
   
  In all honesty, I did not expect any sound differences with the hiface.  My realtek built in card upsamples and modifies sample rates at will, and I dread replacing soundcards.  The cards I wanted did not fit in my pc due to different pci slot formats, we always get a new pc, etc etc.  Just wanted a "constant" in my system where I can plug in any computer without worrying.  No matter how good a dac, isn't it better to bypass a sound card that does wild things before it sends a signal to the dac?


----------



## volume

the bit perfect can easily beachived by some plugins in foobar, another case if you are using MAC.
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> How about those of us who just want to make sure we get bit-perfect source out of our computers?  I'm not talking hiface in particular, but any of these new usb transports which bypass the internal sound card.  This is what led me to this forum and to getting the hiface.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> How about those of us who just want to make sure we get bit-perfect source out of our computers?  I'm not talking hiface in particular, but any of these new usb transports which bypass the internal sound card.  This is what led me to this forum and to getting the hiface.
> 
> In all honesty, I did not expect any sound differences with the hiface.  My realtek built in card upsamples and modifies sample rates at will, and I dread replacing soundcards.  The cards I wanted did not fit in my pc due to different pci slot formats, we always get a new pc, etc etc.  Just wanted a "constant" in my system where I can plug in any computer without worrying.  No matter how good a dac, isn't it better to bypass a sound card that does wild things before it sends a signal to the dac?


 

 I do notice an improvement in sound stage, bass/treble extension when using The Blue Circle USB Thingee when converting my USB to toslink (it can do both coax/optical, but my DAC already has the coax used by my Marantz CD player). The improvement was noticeable right away and I've tried it with both my HD800s and LCD-2s.
   
  The LCD-2s saw the biggest improvement as I literally stopped using PC audio with them as they sounded just too congested. I relegated them to CDs only. But with the USB Thingee, I'm listening to PC audio again without reservation. So just another option to think about.


----------



## OverlordXenu

So, are the Mac OS X drivers good? Anyone have any issue with them?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





overlordxenu said:


> So, are the Mac OS X drivers good? Anyone have any issue with them?


 

 With the modded hiface, I get kernel panics on starting up the device.  To prevent a kernel panic, I log out, turn on the unit and then log back in.  Once things are running, I haven't had an issue.  I understand that this problem doesn't exist with the unmodded HiFace.


----------



## paaj

no real issues under OSX, the clicking problem is long solved and I have not experienced panics for months now. Excellent for music, though it did have a 600ms delay that made it unusable for movies (haven't tried since... probably still exists)


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I mean best audible sound reproduction that my DAC is capable of once jitter is reduced to a level where further reduction leads to minimal if any audible improvement.  It's not well established just how much jitter has to be present for us to detect it or any further reduction in it.


 
   
  I tried the 15db attenuator with my Modded HiFace and still hear no appreciable difference in sound.  No change in volume either.  It continues to sound great, as does my optical output through my UltraDesktop Amp's DAC stage.
   
  I've always thought my system sounded fabulous as it stood.  I got the modded HiFace out of the genuine curiosity that things could actually sound even better.  Not to mention the sheer fun of trying it.  Well, I've tried all sorts of things and end up with pretty much the same sound from optical as with the HiFace.
   
  I'm thinking that this here HiFace will work a treat for those with a normally jitter heavy source and who do not use an upsampling DAC that already effectively reduces jitter.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I tried the 15db attenuator with my Modded HiFace and still hear no appreciable difference in sound.  No change in volume either.  It continues to sound great, as does my optical output through my UltraDesktop Amp's DAC stage.
> 
> I've always thought my system sounded fabulous as it stood.  I got the modded HiFace out of the genuine curiosity that things could actually sound even better.  Not to mention the sheer fun of trying it.  Well, I've tried all sorts of things and end up with pretty much the same sound from optical as with the HiFace.
> 
> I'm thinking that this here HiFace will work a treat for those with a normally jitter heavy source and who do not use an upsampling DAC that already effectively reduces jitter.


 

 You didn't notice any effect from the modded HiFace itself, so it's not hard to believe that you can't hear any improvement from attenuators either. It may be your system or the fact that you use equalizers (which mask subtle effects IME...I used EQ's for years). I don't mean anything negative by my comment; just pointing out some things I feel are relevant.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> You didn't notice any effect from the modded HiFace itself, so it's not hard to believe that you can't hear any improvement from attenuators either. It may be your system or the fact that you use equalizers (which mask subtle effects IME...I used EQ's for years). I don't mean anything negative by my comment; just pointing out some things I feel are relevant.


 

 I'm not using any EQ'ing at the moment so.....


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> You didn't notice any effect from the modded HiFace itself, so it's not hard to believe that you can't hear any improvement from attenuators either. It may be your system or the fact that you use equalizers (which mask subtle effects IME...I used EQ's for years). I don't mean anything negative by my comment; just pointing out some things I feel are relevant.


 
   
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I'm not using any EQ'ing at the moment so.....


 

 The interesting thing is that Shahrose hears improvement while you don't.
   
  You both have highly resolving gear, so equipment aside,  the main difference seems to be that Shahrose has 2 large clocks in his modification and you don't....  
   
  Occam's Razor.
   
  USG


----------



## Shahrose

Hey E.
   
  I'll be testing out the attenuators this weekend (I got them thanks to the very generous and helpful Bubu1 on Head-Fi). I'll post my impressions here.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Hey E.
> 
> I'll be testing out the attenuators this weekend (I got them thanks to the very generous and helpful Bubu1 on Head-Fi). I'll post my impressions here.


 

 Listen carefully and try to listen blindly.  There's much expectation surrounding those attenuators.
   
  E


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Hey E.
> 
> I'll be testing out the attenuators this weekend (I got them thanks to the very generous and helpful Bubu1 on Head-Fi). I'll post my impressions here.


 

 Glad to see that you got them.  Hope they work out for you!


----------



## Bubu1

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I tried the 15db attenuator with my Modded HiFace and still hear no appreciable difference in sound.  No change in volume either.  It continues to sound great, as does my optical output through my UltraDesktop Amp's DAC stage.
> 
> I've always thought my system sounded fabulous as it stood.  I got the modded HiFace out of the genuine curiosity that things could actually sound even better.  Not to mention the sheer fun of trying it.  Well, I've tried all sorts of things and end up with pretty much the same sound from optical as with the HiFace.
> 
> I'm thinking that this here HiFace will work a treat for those with a normally jitter heavy source and who do not use an upsampling DAC that already effectively reduces jitter.


 
  aimlink,
  Thanks for posting your impressions.  While your impressions are different than mine, I'm glad to hear that you gave them a try. Keep enjoying the music!!!


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Listen carefully and try to listen blindly.  There's much expectation surrounding those attenuators.
> 
> E


 

 Definitely. I'm not expecting anything. For all I know, it could make my system sound worse. I hope that's not the case, but even if it is, it's not a big deal since the funds invested were small.

  
  Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> Glad to see that you got them.  Hope they work out for you!


 

 Thanks


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> The interesting thing is that Shahrose hears improvement while you don't.
> 
> You both have highly resolving gear, so equipment aside,  the main difference seems to be that Shahrose has 2 large clocks in his modification and you don't....
> 
> ...


 

 I didn't know that I had small clocks in mine.  What makes you think that?


----------



## leeperry

aimlink said:


> I didn't know that I had small clocks in mine.  What makes you think that?


 

 crack it open or we kill the bunny.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> crack it open or we kill the bunny.


 
   
  Should I really get involved in mine are small while they should be big wild goose chase?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I didn't know that I had small clocks in mine.  What makes you think that?


 

 Oops, I thought you had looked.......

  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> crack it open or we kill the bunny.


 

 Ditto.

  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Should I really get involved in mine are small while they should be big wild goose chase?


 

 Well, you have had problems hearing any differences from the beginning, while Shahrose did not.  You both have the same modification unit.   You both have similar DACs and very good equipment so the reason why you don't hear any differences, and Shahrose does, might very well be the clock issue.....   which might not turn out to be a wild goose chase after all.  
   
  There is no question that my large clocked replacementFace sounded better than my small clocked originalFace and Shamu reported a similar thing when he compared the two of them...  There is also the fact that Regal replaced his small clock mod with a large clock mod, at his own expense, because Marco wouldn't exchange it for him.
   
  On the other side of the coin, xdanny couldn't hear any differences between his small clock and a borrowed large clock version through his speaker rig....  but I'm wondering  *if he opened the borrowed unit to see what was in it*?   (many apologies if pics of the internals of the borrowed unit were already posted, and even more if it was not xdanny who did the large clock-small clock  comparison)
   
  So bottom line:  open it up, inquiring minds need to know....... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG


----------



## Shahrose

So I tried the 20dB attenuator and i noticed a subtle improvement. I mean on the level of cables. I did some comparisons back and forth and I agree with Bubu1's assessment. There is a bit more bass and everything is a bit more focused. The treble wasn't affected (I was anticipating a rolloff for some reason). Not a bad improvement for the price paid.


----------



## xdanny

Correct, I did do the small vs big comparison.  But I did not open the borrowed unit, because it would be kinda disrespectful of me to open up a man's modded hiface before he even saw it.  I do believe that it had 2 big clocks in it because jkeny had to guarantee his customer that I wouldn't swap the units...  You can imagine how he would be worried about that.  Also, that unit was manufactured long after this whole thing started so I don't think John would want to deal with a small clock issue. 
   
  I'm going to have another opportunity to do a side by side.  One of my friends ordered a modded hiface and I can post pics of the inside of both if anyone is interested.
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> On the other side of the coin, xdanny couldn't hear any differences between his small clock and a borrowed large clock version through his speaker rig....  but I'm wondering  *if he opened the borrowed unit to see what was in it*?   (many apologies if pics of the internals of the borrowed unit were already posted, and even more if it was not xdanny who did the large clock-small clock  comparison)
> ...


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Well, you have had problems hearing any differences from the beginning, while Shahrose did not.  You both have the same modification unit.   You both have similar DACs and very good equipment so the reason why you don't hear any differences, and Shahrose does, might very well be the clock issue.....   which might not turn out to be a wild goose chase after all.
> 
> There is no question that my large clocked replacementFace sounded better than my small clocked originalFace and Shamu reported a similar thing when he compared the two of them...  There is also the fact that Regal replaced his small clock mod with a large clock mod, at his own expense, because Marco wouldn't exchange it for him.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ok.  So I opened it and it wasn't near as difficult as I thought and here's a photo.
   

   
  So, am I using the small or large clocks?  After looking at images in the other thread addressing clock size, I see that I have the larger clocks.  Again, I'm not in the least surprised.


----------



## leeperry

upstateguy said:


> Ditto.


 





   


aimlink said:


> here's a photo.


 

 You live in the bizzaro world, that doesn't count.


----------



## Bubu1

Shahrose,
  I'm glad that the level of improvement was worth it to you and that you were able to get the 20dB attenuator to work.  I would not steer you in the wrong direction!!!!
  I have found that the more I listen with the attenuator in my system the more subtleties I notice in the music such as wall reflections or identifying less obvious instruments in the mix. I have found that layering is particularly good with this setup and that if I remove the attenuator the sound becomes more 2 dimensional.
  Glad I could help!
  Cheers and enjoy,
  Tom
  Quote: 





shahrose said:


> So I tried the 20dB attenuator and i noticed a subtle improvement. I mean on the level of cables. I did some comparisons back and forth and I agree with Bubu1's assessment. There is a bit more bass and everything is a bit more focused. The treble wasn't affected (I was anticipating a rolloff for some reason). Not a bad improvement for the price paid.Ss


----------



## regal

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Correct, I did do the small vs big comparison.  But I did not open the borrowed unit, because it would be kinda disrespectful of me to open up a man's modded hiface before he even saw it.  I do believe that it had 2 big clocks in it because jkeny had to guarantee his customer that I wouldn't swap the units...


 

 Here a great review of your DAC which perhaps explains why you think the small clocks sound the same as the large,  it takes a decent DAC to notice the difference between transports.
   
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=151541


----------



## Bubu1

aimlink,
  Nice pic. It is quite easy to open up the modded unit.  I was quite impressed with John's work when I opened mine up.  
  Are you relieved to know that you have 2 big clocks?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
   
  Will you be keeping the attenuator in your system?
   
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Ok.  So I opened it and it wasn't near as difficult as I thought and here's a photo.
> 
> 
> 
> So, am I using the small or large clocks?  After looking at images in the other thread addressing clock size, I see that I have the larger clocks.  Again, I'm not in the least surprised.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> aimlink,
> Nice pic. It is quite easy to open up the modded unit.  I was quite impressed with John's work when I opened mine up.
> Are you relieved to know that you have 2 big clocks?
> 
> ...


 
   
  About the big clocks... I'm relieved since I'll not be hearing speculations about it being the clocks that are the problem.
   
  I'll leave the attenuator in place, yes.


----------



## xdanny

Ooooh yeah!  You've found a good one there didn't ya?  Took you what, 3 weeks to dig it out?  Brilliant review, stellar!!
   
  Here is one for you by your good friend!  More legit too, and guess what, this one's not using  words like "s..t" and "suck".  Perhaps you should give it a listen sometime, that is for the few moments when you're actually off that valium you're taking.
   
  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/bryston-bda-1-dac-review
   
   
  And while you're at it, kindly explain why not too long ago you were saying that the modded hiface (even with the small clock) was "the best digital sound you've ever heard" . 
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503323/hiface-sensitive-information/165#post_6888956
   
  So, according to your statement and post, can we all assume a) that your dac sucks as much as mine, or b) that you have NO clue of what the heck you're talking about.
   
   
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Here a great review of your DAC which perhaps explains why you think the small clocks sound the same as the large,  it takes a decent DAC to notice the difference between transports.
> 
> http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=151541


----------



## regal

Just trying to help,  I guess you'll be buried with that DAC tucked under your vest.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Ooooh yeah!  You've found a good one there didn't ya?  Took you what, 3 weeks to dig it out?  Brilliant review, stellar!!
> 
> Here is one for you by your good friend!  More legit too, and guess what, this one's not using  words like "s..t" and "suck".  Perhaps you should give it a listen sometime, that is for the few moments when you're actually off that valium you're taking.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/bryston-bda-1-dac-review


 
   
  Haha!  I see you love your DAC as I do mine.
   
  From the review you sited, it would seem that the same thing comes up as with an article sited by Regal himself.
   
  You have a DAC capable of markedly reducing jitter from an incoming digital signal.
   
  The same DAC only mildly adds jitter to an already jitter free source
   
  You end up with consistently low jitter digital signal going to the DAC stage for conversion.
   
  You therefore end up with no audible difference detected between two transports, one with little jitter and another, with quite a bit of jitter.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Haha!  I see you love your DAC as I do mine.
> 
> From the review you sited, it would seem that the same thing comes up as with an article sited by Regal himself.
> 
> ...


 


 Exactly,  but I am sure Xdanny's thin skin will flare up with your post so watch out.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





regal said:


> Exactly,  but I am sure Xdanny's thin skin will flare up with your post so watch out.


 
   
  You had mentioned that only a decent DAC will detect differences between transports and I agree with this only if upsampling is disabled.  I'm unable to disable upsampling on mine.  Does this limitation make it not decent enough? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If the Bryson's upsampling can be disabled, then it should be able to differentiate two transports with significant differences in jitter.  However, with effective upsampling, the inferior transport will sound better to the point where it's inaudibly different from the transport with low jitter.
   
  Finally, without some objective testing, a lot of the testimony here has to be taken for what it is..., i.e., a subjective assessment.  You therefore have to be careful in how you respond to it in terms of chasing after a similar experience.  You may well never get it, even with identical setups.  On that note, I'm thinking that it's time for me to stop.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> So I tried the 20dB attenuator and i noticed a subtle improvement. I mean on the level of cables. I did some comparisons back and forth and I agree with Bubu1's assessment. There is a bit more bass and everything is a bit more focused. The treble wasn't affected (I was anticipating a rolloff for some reason). Not a bad improvement for the price paid.


 
   
  I too, would have thought the treble should have been improved the way Regal described.  The bass improvement is a an unexpected benefit.  
   
  On the other hand, the improvements are so subtle, are you really sure  they are there, or could they be the result of.... well, you know.......   considering that you have an upsampling DAC?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Correct, I did do the small vs big comparison.  But I did not open the borrowed unit, because it would be kinda disrespectful of me to open up a man's modded hiface before he even saw it.  I do believe that it had 2 big clocks in it because* jkeny had to guarantee his customer that I wouldn't swap the units...  You can imagine how he would be worried about that.*  Also, that unit was manufactured long after this whole thing started so I don't think John would want to deal with a small clock issue.
> 
> I'm going to have another opportunity to do a side by side.  One of my friends ordered a modded hiface and I can post pics of the inside of both if anyone is interested.


 
   
  That's an interesting comment.  Would I be right in assuming that the other customer wanted the large clocks?
  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Ok.  So I opened it and it wasn't near as difficult as I thought and here's a photo.
> 
> 
> 
> So, am I using the small or large clocks?  After looking at images in the other thread addressing clock size, I see that I have the larger clocks.  Again, I'm not in the least surprised.


 

 Hi Aimlink
   
  OK, so that's not the reason you hear no difference between the HF mod and optical out of your MB.  Back to square one on that issue.
   
  (It would be so much better if you posted your equipment in your profile so I didn't have to go through a bunch posts all the time to make sure I knew what you had.....  just saying.

  
  Quote: 





bubu1 said:


> Shahrose,
> I'm glad that the level of improvement was worth it to you and that you were able to get the 20dB attenuator to work.  I would not steer you in the wrong direction!!!!
> *I have found that the more I listen with the attenuator in my system the more subtleties I notice in the music such as wall reflections or identifying less obvious instruments in the mix. *I have found that layering is particularly good with this setup and that if I remove the attenuator the sound becomes more 2 dimensional.
> Glad I could help!
> ...


 

 Are you really sure of this?  Have you tried any unsighted experiments?  Knowing what you're listening to makes such a big difference.  I'm always wary of discoveries made during sighted trials, having fallen into that quagmire myself.
  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> Here a great review of your DAC which perhaps explains why you think the small clocks sound the same as the large,  it takes a decent DAC to notice the difference between transports.
> 
> http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=151541


 
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Ooooh yeah!  You've found a good one there didn't ya?  Took you what, 3 weeks to dig it out?  Brilliant review, stellar!!
> 
> Here is one for you by your good friend!  More legit too, and guess what, this one's not using  words like "s..t" and "suck".  Perhaps you should give it a listen sometime, that is for the few moments when you're actually off that valium you're taking.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/bryston-bda-1-dac-review


 
   
*If you follow the dollar*, the essence of those 2 reviews becomes clear.  One was written by a consumer and the other was written by a promoter.....  just my opinion.
   
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> You had mentioned that only a decent DAC will detect differences between transports and I agree with this only if upsampling is disabled.  I'm unable to disable upsampling on mine.  Does this limitation make it not decent enough?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Shahrose reported that he hears transport differences with his upsampling DAC.
   
  I'm sure xdanny tried it both ways and didn't hear a difference between the clocks but hears a difference with transports.
   
  What is troubling is that you hear no difference at all... even the transport volume difference that Shahrose,  myself, and others hear, so I don't think it's time for you stop because we still haven't figured out the cause of your anomaly.
   
  On the other hand, maybe it's time to try another transport since this one clearly doesn't work in your system, (through no fault of your own).  
   
  Why not take jkeny up on his generous public offer of a refund and report back if the offer turns out to be bogus.  How you're treated would be something  that  future modification purchasers would like to know.
   
  USG


----------



## Shahrose

Hey E, I'm wondering what regal's source is? Has he tried the attenuators?
   
  In my system, everything became more focused and tight, including the bass. The lowest octave became a bit more prominent too. The attenuator and converter plugs with shipping only cost me around $30, so it's definitely worth it. People pay hundreds for cables to get a similar change.
*Wikipedia:* undefined *»*


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Hey E, I'm wondering what regal's source is? Has he tried the attenuators?
> 
> In my system, everything became more focused and tight, including the bass. The lowest octave became a bit more prominent too. The attenuator and converter plugs with shipping only cost me around $30, so it's definitely worth it. People pay hundreds for cables to get a similar change.
> *Wikipedia:* undefined *»*
> ...


 
   
   
  Regal's sig says:  Source: Hiface (battery mod), Audiogd 19MK3 (PMD100), AudioGD 3SE(PMD100), AA DDE1.2(PMD100-AD1862)
   
  But Regal will have to weigh in on everything else.
   
  E


----------



## Shahrose

Yea, I ask because I think it was him who said the attenuators just roll-off the sound, but the transient response increased and treble became more extended and prominent with the attenuators (not in a bad way).
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Regal's sig says:  Source: Hiface (battery mod), Audiogd 19MK3 (PMD100), AudioGD 3SE(PMD100), AA DDE1.2(PMD100-AD1862)
> 
> But Regal will have to weigh in on everything else.
> 
> E


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Yea, I ask because I think it was him who said the attenuators just roll-off the sound, but the transient response increased and treble became more extended and prominent with the attenuators (not in a bad way).


 
   
  I see what you mean, your experience doesn't coincide with his, in fact IIRC, it's the _opposite_ of every other attenuator review.
   
  E


----------



## TheShaman

Could the modded HiFace crew let us know how it worked out for them in terms of practicality? Do the batteries last long enough? Did you box it up?
  Or did everyone use Jkeny's service?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> What is troubling is that you hear no difference at all... even the transport volume difference that Shahrose,  myself, and others hear, so I don't think it's time for you stop because we still haven't figured out the cause of your anomaly.
> 
> On the other hand, maybe it's time to try another transport since this one clearly doesn't work in your system, (through no fault of your own).
> 
> ...


 
  Now that you got me to open and photograph the thing, what does that do for the return policy?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





theshaman said:


> Could the modded HiFace crew let us know how it worked out for them in terms of practicality? Do the batteries last long enough? Did you box it up?
> Or did everyone use Jkeny's service?


 
   
  On a Mac you really have to tippy toe to avoid the kernel panics.  I power up the HiFace now only prior to a system startup or after logging out.  If I power it up while logged in, I'm pretty much guaranteed a kernel panic.  Otherwise, it's been working fine.  I don't use the batteries for too long at a time.  6 hours at the most, I'd say.


----------



## sleepy dan

A little while ago USG claimed that the Hiface was louder than other transports.  He also said it had an upward tilted treble response of 3 decibels.  According to him this is why Hiface owners believed they heard more detail.
   
  I've done some measurements comparing the Hiface to my EMU 0404 PCI.
   
  First the EMU as a base-line:


----------



## sleepy dan

Now here's the Hiface:
   

   
  The small dip in the high treble is due to the low pass filtering in my DAC.  Crucially it's identical in both, as is the output level.  I also measured both with my meter at the output of my DIY DAC .... both the Hiface and the EMU gave 870mV.


----------



## Bubu1

Originally Posted by *Bubu1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


*I have found that the more I listen with the attenuator in my system the more subtleties I notice in the music such as wall reflections or identifying less obvious instruments in the mix. *I have found that layering is particularly good with this setup and that if I remove the attenuator the sound becomes more 2 dimensional.

   

  USG,

  You just have to take me at my word. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I'm just sharing what I hear and I'm not alone in my assessment.  I am a scientist and think about well controlled experiments all of the time.  Testing would be nice and would remove subjectivity, but I simply don't have the time right now to do it properly.  In any case, I just simply want to enjoy the music.  I am loving what I hear and I didn't have to spend too much money to try it out. Feel free to try it out yourself.  It will cost you $30-40.  What have you got to lose????


----------



## Shahrose

Nothing.
   
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Now that you got me to open and photograph the thing, what does that do for the return policy?


----------



## xdanny

The longest I've run the batteries is about 14 hours.  I listened to music for about 1 hour and forgot to turn it off.
   
  I used jkeny's service, he built a nice enclosure for it.
  
  Quote: 





theshaman said:


> Could the modded HiFace crew let us know how it worked out for them in terms of practicality? Do the batteries last long enough? Did you box it up?
> Or did everyone use Jkeny's service?


----------



## xdanny

Thanks for taking the time to do these measurements.  It sure helps with some of the confusion.
  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Now here's the Hiface:
> 
> 
> 
> The small dip in the high treble is due to the low pass filtering in my DAC.  Crucially it's identical in both, as is the output level.  I also measured both with my meter at the output of my DIY DAC .... both the Hiface and the EMU gave 870mV.


----------



## Bubu1

Thanks for the measurements sleepy dan.  The results are pretty conclusive!!!!!!


----------



## Bubu1

JKenny has done a nice job with this mod.  I bought mine from him and I would buy from him again. As far as the batteries are concerned, they are great.  As xdanny said, you can probably listen to the unit for an entire day (12hrs) and not completely discharge it.  
  Aimlink pointed out a legitimate concern if you are using a Mac.  If you do not power it up prior to launching iTunes, you are likely to induce a kernel panic.  Aimlink's suggestion on how to avoid this problem is a good one.
  Quote: 





theshaman said:


> Could the modded HiFace crew let us know how it worked out for them in terms of practicality? Do the batteries last long enough? Did you box it up?
> Or did everyone use Jkeny's service?


----------



## digger945

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Now here's the Hiface:
> 
> 
> 
> The small dip in the high treble is due to the low pass filtering in my DAC.  Crucially it's identical in both, as is the output level.  I also measured both with my meter at the output of my DIY DAC .... both the Hiface and the EMU gave 870mV.


 




  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> A little while ago USG claimed that the Hiface was louder than other transports.  He also said it had an upward tilted treble response of 3 decibels.  According to him this is why Hiface owners believed they heard more detail.
> 
> I've done some measurements comparing the Hiface to my EMU 0404 PCI.
> 
> First the EMU as a base-line:


 


 Would you be so kind as to share with us what kind of software and microphones you used for recording?
  Also it wouldn't hurt to know what the "dac" used for playback would be, and amp and cans wouldn't hurt as long as we're at it.
  Just for reference of course.


----------



## Shahrose

Interesting development...I'm noticing that along with the more focused sound, all the attenuators (10, 15, and 20dB) increase a certain portion of the treble. The higher the attenuation, the greater the treble and faster the sound. I initially said that the attenuators didn't do anything to the treble, but what I meant to say was that they don't attenuate the treble (as I was expecting them to). 
  I really think it will depend on the system whether these changes are viewed as positive or negative. I'm ambivalent at this point. The attenuators give me something good, but also something unwanted.


----------



## xdanny

No, I wasn't saying that, sorry.  Room/sound measuring software requires calibration of the PC's soundcard to be used in a test.  The impulse test tone is generated at the current soundcard settings, in this case 48khz.  The claim was (correct me if I'm wrong) that the hiface exhibits an upward treble tilt of about 3db's with either clock - in your case you have two large oscillators so if it's 44 or 48 they should have the same output because they are identical. (This is what I was trying to say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
   
  Logic dictates that if you thought the improvement in detail at the upper range was due to the treble tilt - and measurements show there isn't a treble tilt - then perhaps the improvement in detail is legit?  Honestly, I am not telling you what you're hearing, just trying to look at this from another angle.  Sleepy dan's measurements have all of a sudden added a different perspective to this - including him physically measuring both the EMU and hiface at the output of the dac (identical readings).
   
  Not speaking  for sleepy dan, but base on previous posts I think he has a stock unit.  And sorry but I also do not believe he'd be someone to fake this graph.
   
  I'm not sure I'm understanding the PCI vs USB question.  The impact is in the results...
   
  To be honest, no I hadn't looked carefully at the doctored graph you posted, it's actually pretty funny!!
   
  Regards


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> So it looks like *everybody who's heard/measured different things than you is liar*, fabricator or cover up operative. Be careful, these could be the first signs of mild paranoia. Did you use to dream about small clocks chasing you or similar things?


 
  LOL, of course not!   ..................  but how did you know about the dreams?????
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Interesting development...I'm noticing that along with the more focused sound, all the attenuators (10, 15, and 20dB) increase a certain portion of the treble. The higher the attenuation, the greater the treble and faster the sound. I initially said that the attenuators didn't do anything to the treble, but what I meant to say was that they don't attenuate the treble (as I was expecting them to).
> I really think it will depend on the system whether these changes are viewed as positive or negative. I'm ambivalent at this point. The attenuators give me something good, but also something unwanted.


 

 Hummm, you mean it is starting to sound, um, er, brighter?

  
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> No, I wasn't saying that, sorry.  Room/sound measuring software requires calibration of the PC's soundcard to be used in a test.  The impulse test tone is generated at the current soundcard settings, in this case 48khz.  *The claim was (correct me if I'm wrong) that the hiface exhibits an upward treble tilt of about 3db's with either clock* - in your case you have two large oscillators so if it's 44 or 48 they should have the same output because they are identical. (This is what I was trying to say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi xdanny
   
  No, that's not what I'm saying at all.  First, I only have  44.1kHz material, so the 48kHz clock is not used. The 3db number comes from the Legato review, in CA, that I linked to a number of pages back and it pertains to volume only.  What I noticed was that the HF plays louder than the BCT or the onboard dacs in my Constantine and Stello, which all play at the same relative volume. 
   
  There is no getting around that, in many systems the HF plays noticeably louder. Gordon Rankin agreed, both in a post in the CA review explaining why, and again when I wrote to him about it.   The 3db number from the review sounded like it could be right, so I went with it.  Enough people have corroborated this so I'm not going to go into it further except to say that the exact db louder it plays is not important, what is important is that it plays noticeably louder.  I suppose if you need further clarification, you can write to Gordon Rankin yourself.  I found him very responsive.
   
  The treble tilt or brightness is another issue.  Not only does the HF play louder, it plays brighter.  Many people have commented on this also.  I called it a treble tilt because the bass seemed to be attenuated by the amount the treble is boosted, changing the tone of instruments and vocals, and especially the piano.  Listening to the treble end, and shimmer of a drum kit with the HF  doesn't sound as realistic as listening to it with the BCT, (which is my control).  Brighter, treble tilted, yes, but more realistic or detailed, no.
   
  Then there is the issue of upsampling DACs which neutralize the effects of low jitter sources.  I found a good narrative about this phenomena on the PS Audio site and posted links to it. This phenomena was real enough for jkeny to post about it on his web site (although he removed it when it became an issue).  If you haven't seen it, here it is. Please read it carefully.  It's exactly what they say on the PS Audio site regarding the masking effects of upsampling dacs on low jitter sources, and why their top of the line dac, even though it has 6 levels of upsampling,  has a bypass switch for use with low jitter sources.
   

   
  So, here  I was,  listening with my T-1 headphones > GS-1 amp > North Star Mk II DAC > and HF and it sounded to me like what I was hearing was a louder playing, treble tilted, pseudo-detailed transport, that was using the "louder sounds better" treick to gain advantage over the masking effect of my upsampling dac. 
   
  When I went back to the BCT, (which the HF was suppose to replace) everything went back to normal.  Pianos sounded like my piano again, and the bright, treble tilt was gone. 
   
  I thought this might be a function of the small clock, and contacted Tweak Geek for an exchange,  but, even though the exchangeFace sounded noticeably better than the originalFace, it still had the same loud, treble tilted, pseudo-detailed sound signature... which makes it appear to sound better than other transports (when used with upsampling dacs), until you volume balance.....  Then you realize it was just louder and brighter, not better.
   
  So I went back to the BCT, and that's where I am now until I find another transport.
   
  USG
   
  Edit to say that before you embrace those measurements as scientific fact, they need to be reproduced and until they are reproduced and verified,  they are merely anecdotal.


----------



## xdanny

About that screenshot from John's site:  he's never denied he had it up there, or that he said it.  Just a caution based on what some of his clients have reported.  He took it down because it got misinterpreted a lot.  Just thought I'd say this since he cannot be here to defend himself.  And I do agree with that statement, as on mine there is a very slight difference between the upsampled and the original format, but that is not only apparent with the hiface:  it's pretty much in all the sources I've tried.  Not significant to make an impact, I doubt regular people would notice, but for someone picky  it's enough to keep the upsampling switch to "off".
   
  Also, I was not able to notice either a difference in volume or a brighter sound on mine.  We disagree here, so I guess we'll leave it at that.
   
  Shamu, someone does not have to post a lot to be credible, nor to be a long time member.  Not because I agree with sleepy dan, but his posts have always made sense from a technical point of view.  Very level-headed and knowledgeable and in my opinion some of the most informative.


----------



## shamu144

Indeed, a bit too much knowledgeable about the Hiface for a new comer if you follow me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Shamu, someone does not have to post a lot to be credible, nor to be a long time member.  Not because I agree with sleepy dan, but his posts have always made sense from a technical point of view.  Very level-headed and knowledgeable and in my opinion some of the most informative.


----------



## sleepy dan

I don't know what Gordon Rankin has said, but it was you who made the claim here and that is what I am contesting.
   
  If you find the Hiface bright in your system, that's one thing.  But you were making technical claims based on your impressions that weren't true.  There has been a lot of that around here with regard to the Hiface.
   
  My tests were with the Stock Hiface, with both clocks the smaller ones.  But whichever clocks or other modifications are present will not make the slightest difference to loudness or frequency response.  Similarly 44.1KHz or 48KHz, and PCI vs USB will make no difference.  If you understood the issues at hand you would know that.
   
  The point is that the Hiface doesn't alter frequency response or loudness, and the EMU is there as a comparison.
   
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> If you want to argue the point of the stock RCA HiFace playing louder you'll have to take it up with Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio.  I wrote to him about it and I posted his reason why the HiFace plays louder.  If you think you know better, he's the man to argue with.
> 
> I am far from the only person who has posted about the brightness of the stock RCA  HiFace.  My experience is that a stock RCA HiFace, has a treble tilted pseudo-detailed sound that gives impression of greater details, when played through an upsampling dac like my North Star Mk II.
> 
> ...


----------



## sleepy dan

Honestly, if you knew what happened at the input of a DAC, you would not be saying this.  2V S/PDIF will not upset a DAC.  Plenty of DACs actually _boost_ the S/PDIF level up to the logic level maximum (3.3V or 5V) because the interface receiver _likes_ a higher level.
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> However, we all know at this point that the SPDIF output of the Hiface is out of specs, at 2Vpp if I remember correctly, and some DAC SPDIF receivers don't like it. Maybe some DACs do actually play louder, as the SPDIF receiver is overloaded, and it is not something that should be ignored, especially if more people than USG did notice it. The Hiface certainly do not play louder in my system than say native USB from the Lavry, or optical out from my Macbook. But it doesn't mean it can't play louder with another DAC.


----------



## sleepy dan

I think I'll take that as a compliment.  Thanks!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> SUBMIT
> 
> 
> Indeed, a bit too much knowledgeable about the Hiface for a new comer if you follow me.


----------



## sleepy dan

Sure.  The software is DSSF3 from http://www.ymec.com/  Downloadable for free in case anyone wants to replicate my results.  No microphone is used - it's a straight loop-back, DAC out -> PC in.
   
  My DAC is based on the Twisted Pear Buffalo, but heavily modified.  The rest of my system is DIY too, except the heaphones of course which are made by Koss, although I use speakers most of the time.

  
  Quote: 





digger945 said:


> Would you be so kind as to share with us what kind of software and microphones you used for recording?
> Also it wouldn't hurt to know what the "dac" used for playback would be, and amp and cans wouldn't hurt as long as we're at it.
> Just for reference of course.


----------



## K3cT

You know, the rising trend of these jitter reducer solutions have been really interesting so I snagged a Musiland 01 USD (I couldn't get the HiFace because the friend who had it has sold the thing already) along with a fairly transparent Stax system (SR-404LE) for a simple assisted blind test. My DAC of choice is my old and trusty DIY AMB γ2 which has an ASRC circuitry built-in. 
   
  The result? I couldn't tell any difference between USB and S/PDIF using the Musiland unit. That's right, USB straight to my notebook sounds as similar as ever with coaxial via the 01 USD. Upon speaking with other Head-Fiers, it seems that the ASRC upsampling circuit does help in this respect somewhat so perhaps that's the reason why I failed the blind test. Perhaps the Hi-face will produce different results with different DACs so one cannot expect it to automatically improve your system. My conclusion? Good design is indeed everything. 
   
  Or perhaps my ears are crappy.


----------



## Nebby

gah, didn't notice that a new page had appeared...redundant question has been answered already


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> You know, the rising trend of these jitter reducer solutions have been really interesting so I snagged a Musiland 01 USD (I couldn't get the HiFace because the friend who had it has sold the thing already) along with a fairly transparent Stax system (SR-404LE) for a simple assisted blind test. My DAC of choice is my old and trusty DIY AMB γ2 which has an ASRC circuitry built-in.
> 
> The result? I couldn't tell any difference between USB and S/PDIF using the Musiland unit. That's right, USB straight to my notebook sounds as similar as ever with coaxial via the 01 USD. Upon speaking with other Head-Fiers, it seems that the ASRC upsampling circuit does help in this respect somewhat so perhaps that's the reason why I failed the blind test. Perhaps the Hi-face will produce different results with different DACs so one cannot expect it to automatically improve your system. My conclusion? Good design is indeed everything.
> 
> Or perhaps my ears are crappy.


 

 I heard a difference with the Musiland 02US + y2 (not sure about the 01). It really depends on the amp and headphones as well. I couldn't hear the differences with a couple of my previous amps. The only ones that were transparent enough to reveal differences were the M^3 and GS-1. I passed a blind test between the HiFace (stock) and USB of the y2. It required a lot of concentration though, since I'm used to forming impressions over long periods of time. I find that's a more effective way to discern subtle differences in audio.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> About that screenshot from John's site:  he's never denied he had it up there, or that he said it.  Just a caution based on what some of his clients have reported.  He took it down because it got misinterpreted a lot.  Just thought I'd say this since he cannot be here to defend himself.  And I do agree with that statement, as on mine there is a very slight difference between the upsampled and the original format, but that is not only apparent with the hiface:  it's pretty much in all the sources I've tried.  Not significant to make an impact, I doubt regular people would notice, but for someone picky  it's enough to keep the upsampling switch to "off".
> 
> Also, I was not able to notice either a difference in volume or a brighter sound on mine.  We disagree here, so I guess we'll leave it at that.


 
   
*Ah, I see you're using a macbook*.  That is why you hear no differences.  There are several people who report no differences in volume or being able to hear the brightness I spoke about, with macbooks.  Aimlink reports hearing *no difference at all between his jkeny mod and the optical out of his mac book *and Shamu also reports that he doesn't hear the volume or brightness issues with his. Now you're reporting the same thing.   I'm not sure why this is peculiar to macbooks but it seems to be consistently reported with them. But if you go through this thread and the other HF thread you will find ample posts where people have reported otherwise.... and then there is the Legago review I linked to and Gordon Rankin's explanation of why the HF plays louder.  Regal said Gordon over simplified it when he explained it to me, but that doesn't change the fact that it plays louder.
   
  No one is saying that upsampling dacs completely negate the effect of low jitter sources to the point where you hear no difference at all, but they certainly level the playing field to the point where those who have the option, turn it off.  This is why jkeny posted what he did and why PS Audio designed their top of the line DAC with a bypass switch.
   
*To clear something up, Jkeny's "caution", as you call it, was well stated and my posting it is in no way an attack on him nor does he have to be defended. * It was just an additional illustration of the problem the HF encounters with uspampling  DACs....that the HiFace does not work well with upsampling dacs, is a fact  and even you have upsampling turned off because of it. 
   
  Regarding "regular people" or "picky people", I think it would be safe to assume that the ones you find here are of the "picky" variety and a even slight difference is enough for them to turn upsampling off.  I'm not even sure how "regular people" would even find out about something like the HF if they didn't frequent audio forums.  New Egg doesn't sell it, nor does B&H and it's not listed on Amazon.  And once "regular people" start frequenting the audio forums, it won't be long before they become converted to the "picky" variety, don'tchathink? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  As an aside, you are basing what you say on your modified unit which doesn't sound anything like the stock unit I've been discussing.... this, according to most of the people who have heard both versions, including jkeny himself.... not looking for a fight, just saying.

  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> *I don't know what Gordon Rankin has said,* .....


 

 If you're interested, I posted the link to the entire CA Legato review and Gordon Rankin's response in that review, as well as links to the PS Audio discussion.  I also posted my correspondence with Mr. Rankin. 
   
  Not being an engineer like yourself,  I guess I'll have to go with Gordon Rankin's take on the loudness issue.  I would like to think that he has, at least, a working knowledge about usb transports.
  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> My DAC is based on the Twisted Pear Buffalo, but heavily modified.  The rest of my system is DIY too, except the heaphones of course which are made by Koss, although I use speakers most of the time.


 
   
  I'm curious if you can disable upsampling on your Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC?
   
  I'm also curious which Koss headphones you have and what speakers you have, as you have no profile for me to reference.... and I'm sorry if you have mentioned this already, but what is your source?
   
  The other thing in question is whether the nuances that can be readily detected with headphones can be detected with speakers and at what volume and with what room treatments and at what distance?
   
  As I said to xdanny, I'm not looking for a fight, just continuing the discussion.
   
   
  USG


----------



## momomo6789

so much debate over this surprising, considering the price it costs is very cheap.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Aimlink reports hearing *no difference at all between his jkeny mod and the optical out of his mac book *and Shamu also reports that he doesn't hear the volume or brightness issues with his. Now you're reporting the same thing.   I'm not sure why this is peculiar to macbooks but it seems to be consistently reported with them.
> USG


 

 I report no volume diff but "brightness" compared to optical from my MacBook! Just to make it simpler! MWUAHAHA


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> I heard a difference with the Musiland 02US + y2 (not sure about the 01). It really depends on the amp and headphones as well. I couldn't hear the differences with a couple of my previous amps. The only ones that were transparent enough to reveal differences were the M^3 and GS-1. I passed a blind test between the HiFace (stock) and USB of the y2. It required a lot of concentration though, since I'm used to forming impressions over long periods of time. I find that's a more effective way to discern subtle differences in audio.


 

 Do you remember which headphones you used ?
   
  USG


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Do you remember which headphones you used ?
> 
> USG


 

 HD800, HE-5 and HD650 at the time. The HD800 and 650 were recabled. (For the blind test, I only used the 800s).


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> I report no volume diff but "brightness" compared to optical from my MacBook! Just to make it simpler! MWUAHAHA


 


  LOL...................... 
   
  OK, but add another vote for the HF brightness factor. 
   
  If you're really serious, and just not kidding around, do you find the brightness to be a "treble tilt", where the bass is less than the bass from your macbook's optical out and the treble is more, or is the brightness just a treble boost with the same bass as the macbook optical?
   
  USG


----------



## xdanny

USG,
   
  l don't know how you came to the conclusion that I'm using a macbook, my gear has always been listed in my sig...  Windows XP with Foobar2000... 
   
  I do have the upsampling turned off on my dac, but it's not the hifaces's fault.  So I don't know why it is being criticized as such...  I prefer the upsampling off with other sources/transports also.  The less processing of my audio files the better.  Is the upsampling feature required to properly evaluate a component?  No.  Personally, I've never wanted it, never cared for it and I will never use it
   
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> *Ah, I see you're using a macbook*.  That is why you hear no differences.  There are several people who report no differences in volume or being able to hear the brightness I spoke about, with macbooks.  Aimlink reports hearing *no difference at all between his jkeny mod and the optical out of his mac book *and Shamu also reports that he doesn't hear the volume or brightness issues with his. Now you're reporting the same thing.   I'm not sure why this is peculiar to macbooks but it seems to be consistently reported with them.
> 
> *..... * It was just an additional illustration of the problem the HF encounters with uspampling  DACs....that the HiFace does not work well with upsampling dacs, is a fact  and even you have upsampling turned off because of it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> USG,
> 
> *l don't know how you came to the conclusion that I'm using a macbook, *my gear has always been listed in my sig...  Windows XP with Foobar2000...
> 
> I do have the upsampling turned off on my dac, but it's not the hifaces's fault.  So I don't know why it is being criticized as such...  I prefer the upsampling off with other sources/transports also.  The less processing of my audio files the better.  Is the upsampling feature required to properly evaluate a component?  No.  Personally, I've never wanted it, never cared for it and I will never use it


 

 Gee willikers.  I must have scrolled up to see what equipment you were using and accidentally landed on the wrong sig.  Sometimes it's hard to see the sigs when you  are posting.  Many apologies.  It clearly says Windows XP.  What kind of computer are you using?
   
*We've been going back and forth but you are talking about your battery powered modification like it was a stock unit.  It is not. *
   
*I am discussing the **stock USB powered unit  ** and you are not.*  I'm sure you don't think your modded unit sounds like my stock unit.
   
  Regarding upsampling.  I don't have it turned on with my Stello, but it seems to be built into my North Star and the Lavry 11, Benchmark, DacMagic, Bel Canto, Buffalo, Y2, and many others.
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> HD800, HE-5 and HD650 at the time. The HD800 and 650 were recabled. (For the blind test, I only used the 800s).


 


  Well that pretty much settles that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  USG


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> I heard a difference with the Musiland 02US + y2 (not sure about the 01). It really depends on the amp and headphones as well. I couldn't hear the differences with a couple of my previous amps. The only ones that were transparent enough to reveal differences were the M^3 and GS-1. I passed a blind test between the HiFace (stock) and USB of the y2. It required a lot of concentration though, since I'm used to forming impressions over long periods of time. I find that's a more effective way to discern subtle differences in audio.


 
   
  Interesting. I really should get different converters to further corroborate my findings. I used to do it your way, forming impressions after an extended period of time, but I realized that you're more subject to placebo effects in that manner so I've been trying to keep it shorter. What I did was I spent 2 days with the Musiland unit before doing an extensive blind test after I deemed myself familiar enough with the gear already. I'm all ears if anyone has a better reviewing method though as I'm still learning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Still, at the moment the ADUM4160 isolator is more interesting for me as it's way cheaper to experiment with. I could probably build the isolator and a nice simple linear regulated supply, either TREAD or Sigma25, and case it under $100...


----------



## sleepy dan

I am interested .... Couldn't find your link but did find this from CA ....
   
"Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
 Thanks
 Gordon"

 Is this the reasoning what you are referring to?  If so, it's mistaken - I don't think Gordon thought this through before posting.  According to this logic, 16 bit audio will be 2 to the power 8 = 256 times louder than 24 bit audio when played through a 24 bit DAC.  Obviously it's not, or the DAC would be clipping horribly.  I'm going away soon for a few days, so if you are interested I can go into more detail when I get back next week.  i think it's an important issue that needs ironing out.  But you can easily test this for yourself by comparing 16 bit and 24 bit recordings .... there should be no loudness difference, let alone one being 256 times louder than the other.




upstateguy said:


> If you're interested, I posted the link to the entire CA Legato review and Gordon Rankin's response in that review, as well as links to the PS Audio discussion.  I also posted my correspondence with Mr. Rankin.


----------



## sleepy dan

Upsampling with the Sabre can only be turned off by re-writing it's firmware.  But the Hiface has no "problem" with upsampling.
   
  I have no problem with listing my system, other than 1) my system is entirely DIY and heavily modded, so it's hard to make a judgement on how transparent it is by comparing it to commercial stuff.  But it is very, very transparent. 2) I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion and 3) I started building my own clock circuits when after-market clocks came on the market maybe 15 years ago or so.  I could easily hear the difference between circuits on my then modest speaker based system.  "You can't hear it because your system isn't good enough" that is often mentioned, particularly by regal, really should stop.
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I'm curious if you can disable upsampling on your Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC?
> 
> I'm also curious which Koss headphones you have and what speakers you have, as you have no profile for me to reference.... and I'm sorry if you have mentioned this already, but what is your source?
> 
> ...


----------



## leeperry

sleepy dan said:


> I don't think Gordon thought this through before posting.  According to this logic, 16 bit audio will be 2 to the power 8 = 256 times louder than 24 bit audio when played through a 24 bit DAC.  Obviously it's not, or the DAC would be clipping horribly.


 
   
  What is highly sarcastic is that it's the same guy who sells his custom TAS1020B firmwares for stellar prices..


----------



## shamu144

To clarify my position 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I have never been a Hiface detractor. In fact, I love what this little device does in my system and how it opened my eyes to a new era of digital playback. However, I have been extremely disappointed by M2Tech folks attitude and handling of the "clock war" issue. Hence my decision to not deal in the future with any M2Tech product. As you can see, a very rational and expected consumer reaction.
  Considering your skills and knowledge, I would be most interested to read your contribution in other threads if you ever decide to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> This follows a consistent pattern from those who have been detractors of the Hiface, of making personal insinuations.  That you do so says a lot about your position.
> 
> For the record, as my personal credentials have been called into question, I have no connection with M2Tech other than that I own a Hiface.  I have worked in electronics and software all my life, and have qualifications in both.  I am no guru - I have never worked in audio.  I just like making HiFI, especially digital electronics stuff (DACs).  Any other questions about where I am coming from, please ask.


 

  
   
  You are abslotely right, I have no clue about what is going on in a DAC chip receiver. However, maybe some of those guys understand better what they are talking about:
   
  On Audio Asylum, here posted by Thorsten: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/7/78654.html
   
_"As things range from devices with so little output as to make several receivers not lock at all (Musiland Monitor series) to devices with so much output that most modern receivers scream for mercy (HiFace) and it heavily depends on the design of your DAC which device will have what undesirable consequences (they all do BTW) with your DAC."_
  
  Or the founder of Computer Audiophile in his Hiface review: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/M2Tech-hiFace-Asynchronous-USB-SPDIF-Converter-Review

_"Note: As shown in the measurements below the hiFace's output voltage is 2.328 Vpp. This is higher than the standard 0.5 Vpp. It is possible the D-07 does not handle higher voltages as well as the Alpha DAC or DAC202. The bottom line is readers should look at the specs of their DAC and test components in person before purchasing."_
   
  Someone here made concrete jitter measurment of the Hiface and a few other devices, and also mention the issue: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/45#post_6063226
   
_"The problem with some of the coupling is almost certainly due to the DAC output level that should applied concurrently to 0.5V pp and instead is equal to 2.74V pp. The designers are working to put in "template" level output signal while ensuring full compatibility with all DAC Marketing "_
    
  Quote:


sleepy dan said:


> Honestly, if you knew what happened at the input of a DAC, you would not be saying this.  2V S/PDIF will not upset a DAC.  Plenty of DACs actually _boost_ the S/PDIF level up to the logic level maximum (3.3V or 5V) because the interface receiver _likes_ a higher level.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Is this the reasoning what you are referring to?  If so, it's mistaken - I don't think Gordon thought this through before posting.  According to this logic, 16 bit audio will be 2 to the power 8 = 256 times louder than 24 bit audio when played through a 24 bit DAC.  Obviously it's not, or the DAC would be clipping horribly.  I'm going away soon for a few days, so if you are interested I can go into more detail when I get back next week.  i think it's an important issue that needs ironing out.  But you can easily test this for yourself by comparing 16 bit and 24 bit recordings .... there should be no loudness difference, let alone one being 256 times louder than the other.


 

 A possible explanation is if the 16 bits are shifted *up* in the 24bit frame, so the lower 8 bits are filled with 0s, the 16bit max value (0dBFS) will become max value - 256 in 24bit. Or not.


----------



## sleepy dan

Does anyone find 16 bit data to be 256 times louder than 24 bit?  Or vice versa for that matter?  I'd be happy to read Gordon's explanation in full if I can find it in case there's something I'm missing, but i really think he's had a brain-fart on this one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  No disrespect intended - he's a very inventive designer.
  
  Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> A possible explanation is if the 16 bits are shifted *up* in the 24bit frame, so the lower 8 bits are filled with 0s, the 16bit max value (0dBFS) will become max value - 256 in 24bit. Or not.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Interesting. I really should get different converters to further corroborate my findings. I used to do it your way, forming impressions after an extended period of time, but I realized that *you're more subject to placebo effects in that manner *so I've been trying to keep it shorter. What I did was I spent 2 days with the Musiland unit before doing an extensive blind test after I deemed myself familiar enough with the gear already. I'm all ears if anyone has a better reviewing method though as I'm still learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have to agree with you.  I prefer short sessions.
   
  USG


  
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> I am interested .... Couldn't find your link but did find this from CA ....
> 
> "Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
> Thanks
> ...


 

 I wrote to him about that comment and he responded with the essentially the same answer, so he's had a chance to think about what he was saying. 
   
  (His response is posted a few pages back in this thread or the other HF thread...  you might search the threads for gordon rankin)
   
  He seems to be a very nice guy and I'm sure he would write back to you.  Why don't you share your computations him at Wavelength Audio.com. 
   
  I'm as curious as you are to know why the HF plays louder if that's not the reason. 
   
   
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Upsampling with the Sabre can only be turned off by re-writing it's firmware. * But the Hiface has no "problem" with upsampling.*
> 
> I have no problem with listing my system, other than 1) my system is entirely DIY and heavily modded, so it's hard to make a judgement on how transparent it is by comparing it to commercial stuff.  But it is very, very transparent. 2) I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion and 3) I started building my own clock circuits when after-market clocks came on the market maybe 15 years ago or so.  I could easily hear the difference between circuits on my then modest speaker based system.  "You can't hear it because your system isn't good enough" that is often mentioned, particularly by regal, really should stop.


 

 According to what jkeny posted and PS Audio,  upsampling neutralizes the effects of using a low jitter source like the HF, and could possibly add jitter.  
   
  That you don't hear the increased volume of the HF seems to indicate that somewhere in your system that effect is being neutralized or that you don't have another transport like the BCT to compare it to.

 In any event, I'm glad the HF is working well in your system, I have removed it from mine.
   
  What were you using before the HF and what have you had a chance to compare it to?
   
Btw, would it be so hard for you to fill out your profile so I can reference your equipment while I'm responding to your posts?
   
Thanks
   
  Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Does anyone find 16 bit data to be 256 times louder than 24 bit?  Or vice versa for that matter?  I'd be happy to read Gordon's explanation in full if I can find it in case there's something I'm missing, but* i really think he's had a brain-fart on this one*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Write to him about it.  I want to hear about the brain-fart too.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> Does anyone find 16 bit data to be 256 times louder than 24 bit?  Or vice versa for that matter?  I'd be happy to read Gordon's explanation in full if I can find it in case there's something I'm missing, but i really think he's had a brain-fart on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That could be the point, it's not 256x, it's just 16,777,216 – 256, the low 8bit is 0. Why would that be 3dB is another question. Gordon is a digital audio guru floating over an asynch interface in lotus position, maybe mortal Head-Fi-ers simply couldn't understand the divine logic.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





sleepy dan said:


> .  Digital receivers these days work off of 3.3V supplies.
> Have a nice weekend!


 

 I lot of smart audiophiles are still using 90's models DAC's,  so I wouldn't make too broad of an assumption.   SPDIF spec is published and set for a reason,  and any transport manufacturer should follow the spec. Of course with the Hiface the best thing to do is use a Newata 1:1 output transformer and use a voltage divider to bring it into spec and maintain 75 ohms output impedance.  But should the average consumer have to disect a product and tediously solder components to make it meet the standard specification thats been held since the early 80's?


----------



## regal

I know there have been a lot of discussions of the Hiface and its relation to upsampling DACs.  System matching is critical,  something that just gets lost on head-fi.  The fact that price is no longer an indicator of quality/high end makes it even more confusing.  The battery powered Hiface is a very low jitter high end transport. 
   
  I admit I haven't done a good job explaining why upsampling DAC's are inherently mid-budget level DAC's.  I thought this excellent post on Audiasylum would explain my position and many others on why you shouldn't spend the money on a Hiface for a budget DAC.  Of course not everyone agrees with this,  but at least if you have an open mind you can understand why I recommend a high quality oversampling DAC be purchased before buying a modded Hiface.
   
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/15/154564.html


----------



## Currawong

I have removed a couple of pages of posts overall.  
   
  First: Personal attacks of any kind, even veiled via insinuation, are not on. This will be the first and last warning about it. 
  Second: Bans are not discussed publicly, ever. The issues are between the moderators and the member. Suffice to say, people are only ever banned when they break the rules repeatedly, even after warnings.  
   
   
   
   
  Ok, the above being over and done with, here is my thought (as a member) on the discussion about the Hiface sounding 'bright'.  You guys need to read what Dan Lavry wrote about the audible effects on jitter.  It was discussed comprehensively in a thread elsewhere. The frequency response of a device when a sine wave is put through it doesn't show harmonic distortions and the like when music is playing. I've had, for example, issues with obvious (to me with my gear) distortion in the treble using 75 Ohm cable terminated with RCA plugs (rather than BNC), as well as with DACs using hard-cut-off filters (though that might not have been what was responsible) and under other circumstances. Now I can't obviously say exactly what was the cause without serious measuring equipment, but I believe there is enough information out there that I can speculate, or, at the very least, it is teaching me what things to avoid in the future.  Also, has anyone thought to look up how up-sampling works?
   
  You guys need to be less aggressive about this.  Like many of you, I have experimented with the equipment I have with varying results. There is somewhat of a lack of useful technical info for us to be able to usefully understand what is going on though.  More worrying is the lack of effort, from what I can see, of people wanting to research and learn.  None of you, as far as I know, are engineers of the type capable of understanding what is going on, so can I suggest adopting an attitude more towards what you are, that is, curious end-users?


----------



## K3cT

PS Audio PerfectWave DAC is considered high-end and getting rave reviews and I'm fairly sure it's an upsampling DAC...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> PS Audio PerfectWave DAC is considered high-end and getting rave reviews and I'm fairly sure it's an upsampling DAC...


 

 It is an upsampling dac, but the upsampling is defeatable for use with low jitter sources like the HiFace. 
   
  From the PS Audio web site:  (read the entire discussion here) 
   
"It is technically possible to raise any sample rate and bit rate to a higher level through the use of a sample rate converter (SRC).  These devices are amazing number crunching mathematic marvels that have been used since the beginning of the CD.  They perform their magic by what is known as data manipulation.  *Their principal value is to reduce jitter  , increase bit depth and sample rate so subsequent digital filters can sound better.......*
   
The PWD has one of the most sophisticate SRC's made providing* 6 choices of sample rate improvement* through the front panel touch screen.  We included this sophisticated SRC for two reasons: it is expected and in some cases, beneficial.  *We also included a way to defeat the SRC.*
   
*We labeled the SRC bypass as "Native Mode"* because it allows you to bypass completely the SRC's data manipulation and listen to the raw data as it is sent natively from the source. * In most cases, Native Mode sounds far superior to any of the SRC choices, including 24 bit 192 kHz. *(when using low jitter sources)..........."
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Ok, the above being over and done with, here is my thought (as a member) on the discussion about the Hiface sounding 'bright'.  You guys need to read what Dan Lavry wrote about the audible effects on jitter.  It was discussed comprehensively in a thread elsewhere. The frequency response of a device when a sine wave is put through it doesn't show harmonic distortions and the like when music is playing. *I've had, for example, issues with obvious (to me with my gear) distortion in the treble using 75 Ohm cable terminated with RCA plugs (rather than BNC), as well as with DACs using hard-cut-off filters* (though that might not have been what was responsible) and under other circumstances. Now I can't obviously say exactly what was the cause without serious measuring equipment, but I believe there is enough information out there that I can speculate, or, at the very least, it is teaching me what things to avoid in the future.  Also, has anyone thought to look up how up-sampling works?


 
   
  Hi Currawong
   
  Could you go into a little more detail about they type of treble distortion you heard when a 75 Ohm cable was terminated with RCA plugs? 
   
  Since My HiFace is terminated with a 75 Ohm RCA, maybe this what is responsible for the brightness (or treble tilt) I've been experiencing?
   
  USG


----------



## Currawong

I haven't been methodical about nailing it down, but between the Reference 3 and Reference 1, if I used a Van Den Hul The First Ultimate as a digital cable, I'd get a kind of annoying glare around the mids and treble with some music.  Replacing it with a proper BNC Belden cable rectified this.


----------



## Happy Camper

USG
   
  Your cable copper or silver?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> USG
> 
> Your cable copper or silver?


 
   
  This one:  3ft. Dayton Digital Coaxial Cable
   
  USG


----------



## Pacha

I had more irritating treble peak with my silver Oyaide cable than with my current RCA/RCA male adapter fitted directly between DAC and HiFace. Less harshness with same level of details.
  I'd like to see how it could have sounded with BNC, but I have no BNC input on my DAC-19DSP anyway.


----------



## Pacha

Yes I know the differences between my jkeny modded version and the stock HiFace. I do own the modified version and should have specified it for those who don't know. It's already in my profile anyway.
   
  I have two adapters like this.
   
  Real Cable :
http://www.cables-hifi.fr/102-157-thickbox/real-cable-a6071-prolongateur-rca-rca-male.jpg
   
  HQ :
http://www.transistek.com/photos_produits/1p/1_HQS-SAC064.jpg
   
  I tried both and didn't see much of a difference. Real Cable one is gold plated (don't know to how much carat though), HQ one is 24K gold plated. Both seem to use Teflon as dielectric, the latter PTFE as far as I know, and I don't know if they're 75 ohms or not unfortunately. Nothing mentionned on the websites.
  Each was sounding more or less as good as my Oyaide DR-510 cable for me, with less emphasized treble and smoother sound so I sold the Oyaide as these cost $5 while the Oyaide was $250. It helped to upgrade my DAC.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Btw, referring to your battery powered modification as a "HiFace" is quite misleading, as the term "HiFace" is usually applied to the stock version sold by m2tech.
> 
> USG


 

 Maybe the jkeny modded hiFace should be called *jFace*?


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Btw, referring to your battery powered modification as a "HiFace" is quite misleading, as the term "HiFace" is usually applied to the stock version sold by m2tech.  If the two units sounded the same no one would pay hundreds of dollars more for the battery powered version, nor put up with the hassle of constantly charging it nor dealing with accidentally draining the batteries because they forgot to turn it off......  The only thing they have in common is that an upsampling DAC will mask their low jitter effects.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 There is no hassle whatsoever.  In fact, a very well thought out design, plug it in and forget about it. I have it next to my gear and I turn it off and on with my amp and preamp.


----------



## Pacha

I agree. Charging is pretty quick, and you can listen for more than 12 hours non stop (I let the music play when I wanted to burn-in my new DAC). You just turn it ON when you put the cans on your head, and OFF when you take them off. There is more practical but no big deal here.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> There is no hassle whatsoever.  In fact, a very well thought out design, plug it in and forget about it. I have it next to my gear and I turn it off and on with my amp and preamp.


 


  Hiya Danny
   
  LOL, I wish I could say the same thing.  I've often left my amp and dac on all night after late night headphone sessions.  I'm sure a lot of the headphone guys can relate to this..  Interestingly, that never happens with my speaker system.
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> Maybe the jkeny modded hiFace should be called *jFace*?


 


  I didn't see you post before....  jFace,  ha ha, pretty good, but some modifications, like Regal's for instance,  are DIY, so how about *modFace* to cover all the modded units?
   
  USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





pacha said:


> I tried both and didn't see much of a difference. Real Cable one is gold plated (don't know to how much carat though), HQ one is 24K gold plated. Both seem to use Teflon as dielectric, the latter PTFE as far as I know, and I don't know if they're 75 ohms or not unfortunately. Nothing mentionned on the websites.
> *Each was sounding more or less as good as my Oyaide DR-510 cable for me, with less emphasized treble and smoother sound so I sold the Oyaide as these cost $5 while the Oyaide was $250. It helped to upgrade my DAC.*


 

 Just noticed this.....   good information Pacha. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    I didn't know a short RCA audio coupler would sound as good as an expensive digital cable.  Can you hear a difference between the two you have?
   
  USG


----------



## Pacha

Well, maybe the shorter the path, the better.
  I didn't make long time comparisons but the adapter setup wasn't sounding obviously bad like differences I could have easily spotted between cables at slim.a's place when I tried some.
  I just found less treble emphasis with no apparent detail loss, and for $5 vs $250 the choice to make some money selling the Oyaide to buy a better DAC made sense to me.
   
  As I said before about the two adapters I tried both and didn't see much of a difference yet.
   
  You can try these adapters (possibly not the cheap ones one could usually find) if you are interested to compare them to your digital cable and see how it performs.


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote: 





pacha said:


> Well, maybe the shorter the path, the better.


----------



## Pacha

I said maybe, so read I have no clue.
   
  If you have any relevant statement to make to comment please do so.


----------



## leeperry

god forbid, the longer and the most expensive your coax the better it'll sound...I read it somewhere.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> god forbid, the longer and the most expensive your coax the better it'll sound...I read it somewhere.


 


  Yea I read that too...just so unfamiliar members don't understand your tongue-in-cheek comment, that statement is absolute baloney. The best cable is none at all, so it should be as short as possible.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Yea I read that too...just so unfamiliar members don't understand your tongue-in-cheek comment, that statement is absolute baloney. The best cable is none at all, so it should be as short as possible.


 

 Jocko Homo thinks long cables sound better......  just saying.


----------



## Pacha

So in the end, what wins between long path with less reflections but with more impurities on the path and any other crap that a long path could bring to negatively impact the sound, and inversely in a short path?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





pacha said:


> So in the end, what wins between long path with less reflections but with more impurities on the path and any other crap that a long path could bring to negatively impact the sound, and inversely in a short path?


 


 Its an empirical science,  in other words buy a scope and test what works best for your system.


----------



## Pacha

I know how to use an oscilloscope but I'm not an electronic engineer so I won't know what to do exactly about this problem discussed nor how to interpret the results.
  I do understand that the results will depend on the system and that there is probably no best average ratio to advise for everyone.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





pacha said:


> I do understand that the results will depend on the system and that there is probably no best average ratio to advise for everyone.


 


 Exactly


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





regal said:


> Exactly


 


   BTW, how does the reflections get smaller on long length cables?


----------



## nick_charles

Quote: 





regal said:


> Jocko also has an oscilloscope and sees that reflections are smaller with a longer cable,


 
   
   
  But has anyone done any empirical listening tests to show what magnitude of said reflections are (or are not) audible as distortion, since to date nobody has managed to provide any good *listening* data that digital cables make any audible differences I would be inclined to lose no sleep over cable length, jitter and so on until I had **much** better empirical evidence of audible differences...sure the jitter/reflections are measurable and different but so is distortion such as THD/IMD that is frequently far from humanly audible... this all looks a bit like angels on pinheads


----------



## Pacha

Well, these last posts make a lot of sense guys. Thank you for your input.
  There are more things to discuss than I thought.


----------



## leeperry

The other problem is that the cheapest adapters on ebay are made from very poor quality material....but yes, nothing beats a shootout on your own gear. If you prefer a $15 adapter/very short 75Ω DIY cable over a $300 cryo-shaman cable, well..more power to you!
   
  Dan Lavry didn't advise to go for the shortest ever, he simply said that the "longer the better" theory is non-sense. And reflections are one thing, but EMI/RFI/wifi another...my place is plagued by the neighbors wifi, and a 15cm DIY 75Ω cable sounds the best to me. It was cheap too, so I can focus on more important stuff.
   
  There's something terribly wrong when ppl pair a $150 transport w/ a $300 cable IMHO. Get a cable-free $450 transport instead, if need be.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> There's something terribly wrong when ppl pair a $150 transport w/ a $300 cable IMHO. Get a cable-free $450 transport instead, if need be.


 
  Very wise words!


----------



## leeperry

and at least the Halide doesn't require drivers...always a nice touch!


----------



## regal

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> and at least the Halide doesn't require drivers...always a nice touch!


 


 Too bad the Halide doesn't sound near as good as the cumbersome battery powered Hiface.  At least you don't have to worry about driver support for Win8.


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote: 





pacha said:


> I said maybe, so read I have no clue.
> 
> If you have any relevant statement to make to comment please do so.


 


  I believe the same as you mentioned, the shorter the better.


----------



## Pacha

Ok, understood. The emoticon was ambiguous.


----------



## digger945

Quote: 





regal said:


> Too bad the Halide doesn't sound near as good as the cumbersome battery powered Hiface.


 

 I don't expect a full blown review, but I'm curious as to what it was you didn't like about the Bridge.
  I've compared it to an unmodded HiFace, but not the battery modded version.


----------



## shamu144

That would be the Audiophilleo2... And I have one one its way to compare. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> There's something terribly wrong when ppl pair a $150 transport w/ a $300 cable IMHO. Get a cable-free $450 transport instead, if need be.


----------



## regal

I compared it to my modded Hiface and found it has the similiar sound of asynchronous  clocking that I've heard in DAC's that feature it,  changes the pure tone of a Les Paul Guitar for example.  There are a lot of folks who just don't like reclocking like this,  you can never perfectly change a sample rate that isn't a multiple of the original,  so the music is altered.  But this isn't the thread to bicker about it.  I told my friend I would mod it to battery power which I think would help it tremendously but he likes things neat and unmodded.
  Quote: 





digger945 said:


> I don't expect a full blown review, but I'm curious as to what it was you didn't like about the Bridge.
> I've compared it to an unmodded HiFace, but not the battery modded version.


----------



## digger945

Quote: 





regal said:


> I compared it to my modded Hiface and found it has the similiar sound of asynchronous  clocking that I've heard in DAC's that feature it,  changes the pure tone of a Les Paul Guitar for example.  There are a lot of folks who just don't like reclocking like this,  you can never perfectly change a sample rate that isn't a multiple of the original,  so the music is altered.  But this isn't the thread to bicker about it.  I told my friend I would mod it to battery power which I think would help it tremendously but he likes things neat and unmodded.


 


   Reclocking? Change sample rate? Perhaps you are confusing these with another product?


----------



## padam

shamu144, looking forward to your comparison. There is already one here, still unfinished:
   
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Audiophilleo-Vs-Hiface-Evo-My-Tale


----------



## regal

We are talking about the Firestrone?  I think I am subscribed to too many threads.  I apologize.
  Quote: 





digger945 said:


> Reclocking? Change sample rate? Perhaps you are confusing these with another product?


----------



## Zorlac

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> That would be the Audiophilleo2... And I have one one its way to compare.


 


  Cant wait to hear about your Audiophilleo. I am very interested on how this stacks up against the modded hiFace!


----------



## Zorlac

I forgot to tell you guys that my Matrix Mini-i (AD1955 DAC chips) would not display 176.4 kHz sources on its sample rate display when I played them using the modded hiFace (BNC), but as soon as I installed the 10 dB 75 Ohm BNC attenuator, the problem was fixed. Anyone else noticed similar issues fixed by using an attenuator with the hiFace?
   
   
  EDIT: Corrected the sample rate.


----------



## TheShaman

Speaking of those attenuators, is 10dB the optimal attenuation value after all?
  And for us M2Tech RCA users, do the RCA-BNC adaptors needed (to be able to utilize the attenuators) compromise performance?


----------



## ROBSCIX

IIRC, Jkeny mentioned a 10 or 15db attenuator. 
   
  @zorlac, did you notice any improvments aside from the display locking properly?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





theshaman said:


> Speaking of those attenuators, is 10dB the optimal attenuation value after all?
> And for us M2Tech RCA users, do the RCA-BNC adaptors needed (to be able to utilize the attenuators) compromise performance?


 

 I wouldn't mind knowing the answer to this too....  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Could it be done with an RCA to BNC adaper on the end of a stock RCA HiFace, attach the attenuator and connect a BNC to RCA to the attenuator and use the RCA coaxial cable we were originally using, without compromising performance?  Would it matter which end it these adapters were on?

  
  Quote: 





regal said:


> I* compared it to my modded Hiface and found it has the similar sound of asynchronous  clocking that I've heard in DAC's that feature it,  changes the pure tone of a Les Paul Guitar for example.  *


 

 Hi Regal
   
  You are ever the source of interesting information.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Could you delve a little further into what you feel the "sound" of asynchronous clocking is?  One of the biggest complaints I had with the stock HiFace was that I felt it changed the tone of the instruments and vocals.  Maybe this "sound" is what I was referring to?
   
  USG


----------



## regal

The hiface does not use asynchronous reclocking,  it uses asynchrous USB protocol which is entirely different.  If you are interested in asynchronous reclocking the topic has been beat to death on several of the usual forums.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





robscix said:


> IIRC, Jkeny mentioned a 10 or 15db attenuator.


 

 It depends on the receiver in the DAC what is the maximum. Mine with CS8416 works with 21dB attenuation but stops working with 24dB.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





regal said:


> The hiface does not use asynchronous reclocking,  it uses asynchrous USB protocol which is entirely different.  If you are interested in *asynchronous reclocking the topic has been beat to death on several of the usual forums*.


 


  So I see.......  thanks for the clarification....
   
  USG


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sebhelyesfarku said:


> It depends on the receiver in the DAC what is the maximum. Mine with CS8416 works with 21dB attenuation but stops working with 24dB.


 

 I was just relaying information that I remember was mentioned awhile back in the context of the Hiface.  It would make sense that different values would be needed for different receivers.
  I have been considering getting some different values and doing some experimenting.


----------



## SoFGR

I've been watching this thread  for many months now,  but i'm kind of confused  mainly  because english  is not my native language,  i  own  a  BNC hiface ( couldn't find  any RCA versions at that time )    that is connected to the RCA coax input of an audio-gd dac19mk3,  i use  an artisan  digital   dream silver coax cable, it's BNC terminated at the  one end  and RCA terminated at the other  http://www.artisansilvercables.com/digitaldream.htm
   
  You can see the rest of my setup  by  checking my profile, i usually   use  AKG K601 and i notice  some harshness  in the highs  and  generally   can't notice much difference  when doing  A/B comparisons between  hiface coax ( kernel streaming )  -  x-fi  optical in audio creation mode + bitmatched playback ON  ( direct sound )  
   
  Do you think an attenuator  would  help ?  what exactly do i need ?  where  can i get it from ?  keep in mind i live  in greece and i don't want to pay ludicrous  shipping costs.


----------



## leeperry

sofgr said:


> i usually use AKG K601 and i notice some harshness in the highs


 

 I think you have the wrong enemy...first you need to suppress your middle ear resonances: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial


----------



## wuwhere

The attenuator is for something else, not a cure for harshness. If you remove the hiface from your system does the harshness persists? If so, try to solve that first.
  
  Quote: 





sofgr said:


> I've been watching this thread  for many months now,  but i'm kind of confused  mainly  because english  is not my native language,  i  own  a  BNC hiface ( couldn't find  any RCA versions at that time )    that is connected to the RCA coax input of an audio-gd dac19mk3,  i use  an artisan  digital   dream silver coax cable, it's BNC terminated at the  one end  and RCA terminated at the other  http://www.artisansilvercables.com/digitaldream.htm
> 
> You can see the rest of my setup  by  checking my profile, i usually   use  AKG K601 and i notice  some harshness  in the highs  and  generally   can't notice much difference  when doing  A/B comparisons between  hiface coax ( kernel streaming )  -  x-fi  optical in audio creation mode + bitmatched playback ON  ( direct sound )
> 
> Do you think an attenuator  would  help ?  what exactly do i need ?  where  can i get it from ?  keep in mind i live  in greece and i don't want to pay ludicrous  shipping costs.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *aimlink* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Now that you got me to open and photograph the thing, what does that do for the return policy?


 
   
  Shahrose, I can confirm your answer to this question being 'nothing'. 
   
  I returned my modded HiFace and got a full refund minus the ridiculous clearance charges imposed by Irish customs.  Clearance charges which included calculations based on my own shipping expense to return the HiFace via DHL.  JKeny was also gracious enough to purchase the attenuator that I had bought for the HiFace as well.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Shahrose, I can confirm your answer to this question being 'nothing'.
> 
> I returned my modded HiFace and got a full refund minus the ridiculous clearance charges imposed by Irish customs.  Clearance charges which included calculations based on my own shipping expense to return the HiFace via DHL.  JKeny was also gracious enough to purchase the attenuator that I had bought for the HiFace as well.


 
   
  I'm glad you got it sorted out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  (I've been bit by customs several times so I know how that feels).


----------



## regal

As a Hiface owner who has put considerable time and effort into getting the thing _right_,  I've noticed that it seems to have fallen off the earth from FOTM status.  The last test I was sent showed around 30ps of jitter on the JFace (and USG has me hearing the unexplainable treble issues),  now there is Jocko Homo's  Legato which is measured at only 3 ps of jitter.   Has anyone compared the two? 
   
  My concern with the Hiface is Windows 8.  I honestly don't see this company being around with their customer service the way it is.  Not only that but the batteries are a PITA.  I think they promised Linux drivers a year ago and that never happened,  so if sales are dropping like a rock I am looking for an alternative.


----------



## Pacha

I pointed out that m2tech may have dropped driver development a while ago and today still no new driver release and linux release.


----------



## Happy Camper

Is &inglepower involved with this?


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> Is &inglepower involved with this?


 

 Yeah, Mikhail had plastic surgery to switch face and identity and relocated to Italy.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> The attenuator is for something else, not a cure for harshness. If you remove the hiface from your system does the harshness persists? If so, try to solve that first.


 

 well  i  upgraded from   olflex power cords to vovox  initio   and everything is clearer "stronger" kai smoother  at the same time  so  I guess it was  a power problem. Now i'm thinking of doing some A/B comparisons between pluging  the hiface on an cheapie external powered usb hub versus  my motherboard's  usb ports, damn if  only i could send my hiface to jkeny


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> well  i  upgraded from   olflex power cords to vovox  initio   and everything is clearer "stronger" kai smoother  at the same time  so  I guess it was  a power problem. Now i'm thinking of doing some A/B comparisons between pluging  the hiface on an cheapie external powered usb hub versus  my motherboard's  usb ports, damn if  only i could send my hiface to jkeny


 

 Hi SoFGR
   
  Could you explain what you did in a little more detail? 
   
  It's unclear which piece of equipment received the power cord upgrade.
   
  USG


----------



## SoFGR

of course, I bought one 100cm cable  for my  vovox textura distribution and  two  other cables  for  audio gd c2c and  dac19mk3, it seems i was barking at the wrong tree the whole time, my hiface is  an early BNC version so i'm 99% sure I got the  big clocks.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> of course, I bought one 100cm cable  for my  vovox textura distribution and  two  other cables  for  audio gd c2c and  dac19mk3, it seems i was barking at the wrong tree the whole time, my hiface is  an early BNC version so i'm 99% sure I got the  big clocks.


 
   
  IC thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  USG


----------



## regal

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> of course, I bought one 100cm cable  for my  vovox textura distribution and  two  other cables  for  audio gd c2c and  dac19mk3, it seems i was barking at the wrong tree the whole time, my hiface is  an early BNC version so i'm 99% sure I got the  big clocks.


 


 You never will know till you open it up.


----------



## lag0a

I got interested in your RF attenuator discussion so I googled about it and I think I found the science to what you're hearing.
   
  A nice website about the db to power ratio for attenuators: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14183/css/14183_99.htm
   
  It seems what you're hearing is less dirty power (I'm assuming your ac power isn't all that good) by attenuating the db to power ratio, for example, 20 db is 100x less power according to that table provided for the attenuated signal so a higher db level attenuator uses less power.
  As stated before, someone tried a 10 db attenuator and a 15 db attenuator together which adds up to a 25 db attenuator which means probably 500x less power so your DAC won't lock to such a low db attenuated power signal.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





lag0a said:


> I got interested in your RF attenuator discussion so I googled about it and I think I found the science to what you're hearing.
> 
> A nice website about the db to power ratio for attenuators: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14183/css/14183_99.htm
> 
> ...


 


 Nope same amount of power is drawn from the DIT4192 in the Hiface,  it is just shunted to ground with the attenuator.


----------



## lag0a

I'm assuming the power lowers as it passes the RF attenuator not how much power your hiface initially draws. From that website it states that as the the power signal passes the RF attenuator, the power lowers depending on the db RF attenuator you use or does that table not apply to this RF attenuator? Let's say you send a non-attenuated signal from the hiface to a RF attenuator that connects to the input of your DAC then after it passes that RF attenuator the power will be less than the non-attenuated signal. Can someone measure it?
   
  Hmm. I was looking around for some cheap rca attenuators on ebay and I found this product:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rothwell-Audio-RCA-Line-Attenuators-pair-/290487375909?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item43a2659825
   
  It claims one reason to use attenuators is because the gain in your amplifier is too high.
   
  I think I understand what you mean now from this review.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0803/rothwell.htm


----------



## regal

First law of thermodynamics,  power doesn't disappear ,  the attenuator shunts it to ground so the power drawn from the DIT4192 transmitter in the Hiface stays that same since it is a 75 ohm device.
  Quote: 





lag0a said:


> I'm assuming the power lowers as it passes the RF attenuator not how much power your hiface initially draws. From that website it states that as the the power signal passes the RF attenuator, the power lowers depending on the db RF attenuator you use or does that table not apply to this RF attenuator? Let's say you send a non-attenuated signal from the hiface to a RF attenuator that connects to the input of your DAC then after it passes that RF attenuator the power will be less than the non-attenuated signal. Can someone measure it?
> 
> Hmm. I was looking around for some cheap rca attenuators on ebay and I found this product:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Rothwell-Audio-RCA-Line-Attenuators-pair-/290487375909?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item43a2659825
> ...


----------



## slowpogo

I use a Gamma2. I'm using the optical input, from my on-board sound. I found this to sound marginally better than using USB.
   
  I've been thinking about getting the HiFace for a long time now, but I have a question I cannot find an answer to. I do a lot of music composition using Cubase and VST virtual instruments. I need to know how the Hiface drivers will perform in this kind of environment, specifically its latency with virtual instruments. My PC has plenty of processing power and memory.
   
  My on-board sound card gets the job done, but the latency with instruments is a bit much...I have adjusted to it for recording purposes, but it's not really possible to sit down and practice piano with the Ivory VST instrument, for example. Latency is too high.
   
  If the Hiface is not a big improvement in this regard, I can't justify getting it for the SQ improvement alone.


----------



## regal

You need ASIO,  Hiface is not for low latency musical performance.    Quote:


slowpogo said:


> I use a Gamma2. I'm using the optical input, from my on-board sound. I found this to sound marginally better than using USB.
> 
> I've been thinking about getting the HiFace for a long time now, but I have a question I cannot find an answer to. I do a lot of music composition using Cubase and VST virtual instruments. I need to know how the Hiface drivers will perform in this kind of environment, specifically its latency with virtual instruments. My PC has plenty of processing power and memory.
> 
> ...


----------



## slowpogo

Quote: 





regal said:


> You need ASIO,  Hiface is not for low latency musical performance.


 
   
  But it works with ASIO4ALL, doesn't it? The specs say it is DirectX compatible, which means it should work with asio4all. That should get the latency down to at least a decent level; I'm wondering if anyone has done this and what the results were.


----------



## slackman

Yes it works with asio4all with very low latency.
  I've been using the hiface in my studio with a da10.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





slowpogo said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Why would you want to choose ASIO4ALL over HiFace Kernel Streaming?


----------



## slowpogo

Did you read my initial post? My concern is about running virtual instruments in a DAW - asio provides the lowest latency for this purpose, as far as I am aware. I plan on using kernel streaming with foobar.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





slowpogo said:


> Did you read my initial post? My concern is about running virtual instruments in a DAW - asio provides the lowest latency for this purpose, as far as I am aware. I plan on using kernel streaming with foobar.


 


  I read it but I didn't really understand what you meant. 
   
  By latency, do you mean the time delay between pressing the key and  hearing the sound?


----------



## slowpogo

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Yes, that's exactly it..


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





slowpogo said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I wonder if ReClock would work?


----------



## regal

Has anyone read the the CEO of PS Audio's assement of the Hiface: "I have been looking at the chipset they use and it’s clear that while technically asynchronous it is done in the wrong way and I wouldn’t be happy with the results.  By that I mean the chip they use claims to be asynchronous but they use the internal clocks and it goes through some unacceptable processes that is severe enough to have prevented us from licensing what they are doing.
  I know a few manufacturers will be licensing their drivers, but we decided against it because of the implementation.  The good news is that despite all that, it does allow you to get higher bit rates out of the device and converted to S/PDIF.  I am just unconvinced that this solution is better than a high quality sound car"
   
  Not that I would believe anything from this guy after buying a DLII and finding it to be a worst assult on my ears than an ipod,  I just don't understand how he claims Hiface's protocol is the wrong way to do asynchronous,  sounds like maybe he didn't like their licensing fees?"


----------



## Pacha

Quote: 





regal said:


> Not that I would believe anything from this guy after buying a DLII and finding it to be a worst assult on my ears than an ipod,  I just don't understand how he claims Hiface's protocol is the wrong way to do asynchronous,  sounds like maybe he didn't like their licensing fees?"


 
   
  Lol I don't know but that looks like the way you said.


----------



## valeamk0

Patu said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> This thing is extremely interesting. I also got the price for the device through e-mail. I also got a link to some Italian forum where they have discussed more about the product. There should be some impressions about the little gadget.
> 
> ...






Nice writing, It is exactly what I need, Many thanks to your description!


----------



## thread

Anyone know how these devices fair on the Mac? Are there issues? I've started a thread here.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/531980/m2tech-mac-driver


----------



## JiggaD369

Hi guys,
   
  Couple questions.
   
  1. If I get the RCA version, can I swap out the RCA jack for a true 75ohm BNC jack? Meaning are the pins the same?
   
  2. The 78604 transformer that is there before the jack, can that be removed if my DAC has true 75ohm transformer coupled digital inputs?
   
  3. I'm a newbie so I'm trying to learn. If my DAC inputs are transformer coupled (75ohm BNC), is it even required for the Hiface output to be 75ohm? Or do the hiface output and my DAC input both HAVE to be 75ohms on each side?


----------



## shadowlord

i ran into some problems with my hiface.
  i get short sound distortions when watching avi or mkv files with windows media player classic home cinema 64bit.
  now in foobar i would increase buffer size more to get rid of it (as i had to do)
  but what to do in WMPCHC ?


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





jiggad369 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Couple questions.
> 
> ...


 


  You can't swap, but the BNC vs. RCA is not, IMHO, critical.  The BNC is a locking connection, but unless you have BNC on both ends, I'm not really clear on the value.  The connection does not define the 75 ohm impedance, it's the circuitry on either end of the chain, and the impedance of the cable.  RCA or BNC, the key thing is to get a true 75ohm cable, for which I generally suggest Belkin.  it's not flash, but it's made in USA and they really actually engineer the cables to have correct impedance, so signal transfer is optimized.
   
  2: NO.
   
  3:  See above.


----------



## EphemeralHope

Need some help, my USB came loose off my m2tech... I guess it was maltreatment on my part though I did nothing except leave it in my computer.....
  anyone else encounter the same problem and can help me out?


----------



## mrspeakers

Warranty period?


----------



## mrspeakers

Well, it arrived today an no problems at all.  I installed the driver, launched Pure Music, and it came right up.  It's hard to compare A/B, and I may have "buyers desires" but it does appear to add an additional layer of clarity and snap to the sound.  Listening to "dreams" by Fleetwood Mac, I noticed that the percussion popped forward and was more clearly popping out of the background.  On Shpongle's "Molecular Superstructure," the acoustic bass sounded quite clean and smooth, no fuzz at all. From memory it seems a bit clearner, but it's hard to say. 
   
  I'll play more this weekend, and see if USB/coax switching via Pure Music works smoothly, and if I can get some A/B going where levels are matched and I can switch quickly.
   
  I did try a hot-disonnect and nothing bad happened, for what that is worth.
   
  Lastly, I am VERY happy I can play my 88.2 source material without downsampling!  The Pure Music/HiFace combination does, at least, work smoothly, and even when I mixed sample-rate source material in a playlist, actually handled it graciously.


----------



## mrspeakers

Grey screen tonight.  Not happy.


----------



## ccschua

my hiface dont seem to work 24/192.
   
  using win7/32bit and foobar2k and the dac is NFB 7. the drivers for hiface is 1.03. is this the latest version ?


----------



## johangrb

1.03 is the latest drivers. I don't think the problem is w the HiFace. I saw a post on here somewhere that early NFB7's had a problem w 192k - patch in works.


----------



## mrspeakers

The latest driver for OSX 10.6 is very stable on my system.  I decided to keep the card.  It's a Mac Mini as a music server, so there's no hot swapping, which was related to the crashes.


----------



## upstateguy

Have they made any new XP drivers?


----------



## ccschua

the NFB 7 is confirmed to run 24/192. this unit was tested by audio-gd
   
  m2tech email me a driver version 1.03. (still)
   
  yesterday I tried mediamonkey as a player and it can now play 24/192 or 24/96. It only allows me to choice SPDIF 1.03 driver  but the volume is definitely softer with WASAPI.
   
  so I went back to try foobar2k. now instead of WASAPI (hiface 1.03 24/192) I choose DS (hiface 1.03 24/192) as the output.
   
  it can play 24/192 and 24/96 but still the volume is definitely softer (even at max volume). what I know is DS is directsound which is window based. Why I cant use WASAPI or KS even i downloaded the latest KS and WASAPI


----------



## johangrb

Did you d/load the WASAPI plugin for Foobar?
   
  I'm running Win7, Foobar WASAPI and m2tech (Evo & Hiface) with Audio gd Ref1 dac - no problems.


----------



## ccschua

yes. downloaded from foobar component.


----------



## ccschua

yes. downloaded from foobar component.


----------



## todd77

I'm not sure if this has been addressed as I've yet to go through all 127 pages (still on page 29) of this thread but I'd like to ask if the Hiface can help in eliminating the pops and crackles I'm currently getting with my audio setup, which is:
   
  laptop (2.8GHz dual core, 8GB RAM, nVidia 8800M GTX, Vista x64) -> Foobar2k (WASAPI) -> Yulong D100 DAC (via USB) -> FiiO E9
   
  While I understand that such problems would occur if my laptop is under heavy load, they also occur during menial tasks such as web browsing (especially when loading web pages) or even simply scrolling web pages. Through the help from other Headfiers as well as the DPC latency checker utility, it seems that these tasks cause large latency spikes which in turn, result in the audio pops. From here on, I've down a few tweaks on my laptop - updating drivers, disabling CPU and GPU throttling, altering the MCSS registry settings, not using Google Chrome (for some reason, the pops occur more frequently on Chrome than on other browsers like Firefox particularly when scrolling web pages), etc, etc. Also, the DAC is connected to the single dedicated USB slot on the right side of my machine (the other 2 are a shared hub). While I've managed to reduce their occurrence by a fair margin, the odd pop and crackle would still occur, particularly when loading heavy web pages. As such, I'd like to ask if using the Hiface can help reduce their occurrences further or better yet, eliminate them completely. Thanks.


----------



## monoethylene

Maybe it is worth that you try another sound advice firstly like Kernelstreaming and/or Asio4all instead of WASAPI regarding the pops and crackles to see if it still happens. You can also try to increase the buffer length. Nevertheless it seems not necessary IMO when I look at your Laptop features but no one knows and sometimes a change may help


----------



## todd77

I've tried Asio4All and I've tweaked the buffer lengths for both WASAPI and Asio4All (as well as Asio's buffer size) but although they do minimize the occurrence of crackles (by increasing the buffer length - for WASAPI, max I can go is 1000ms, anymore and the playback is fast forwarded; for Asio, I put the max allowed for both buffer length and buffer size), they don't eliminate them completely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It seems that minimizing the buffers makes audio playback more prone to pops for my setup.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





todd77 said:


> I'm not sure if this has been addressed as I've yet to go through all 127 pages (still on page 29) of this thread but I'd like to ask if the Hiface can help in eliminating the pops and crackles I'm currently getting with my audio setup, which is:
> 
> laptop (2.8GHz dual core, 8GB RAM, nVidia 8800M GTX, Vista x64) -> Foobar2k (WASAPI) -> Yulong D100 DAC (via USB) -> FiiO E9
> 
> While I understand that such problems would occur if my laptop is under heavy load, they also occur during menial tasks such as web browsing (especially when loading web pages) or even simply scrolling web pages. Through the help from other Headfiers as well as the DPC latency checker utility, it seems that these tasks cause large latency spikes which in turn, result in the audio pops. From here on, I've down a few tweaks on my laptop - updating drivers, disabling CPU and GPU throttling, altering the MCSS registry settings, not using Google Chrome (for some reason, the pops occur more frequently on Chrome than on other browsers like Firefox particularly when scrolling web pages), etc, etc. Also, the DAC is connected to the single dedicated USB slot on the right side of my machine (the other 2 are a shared hub). While I've managed to reduce their occurrence by a fair margin, the odd pop and crackle would still occur, particularly when loading heavy web pages. As such,* I'd like to ask if using the Hiface can help reduce their occurrences further or better yet, eliminate them completely.* Thanks.


 

 No it won't.
   
  You shouldn't be getting all that interference.  Do you get the interference if you are just listening to music without any applications open?
   
  The Buffer idea was a good one.  Increase the foobar buffer to 2000.  See if it helps.


----------



## todd77

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> You shouldn't be getting all that interference.  Do you get the interference if you are just listening to music without any applications open?


 


  There are no pops or crackles when nothing is running (well, except Foobar). I can even do processor intensive work like 3D modeling and large file copying with hardly any hiccups. It's only when I'm using a web browser that the problems become more apparent. Simply loading web pages or even scrolling them either with a mouse wheel or the keyboard would cause the most problems. The latency reading from DPC latency checker confirms this as there are huge latency spikes when these activities take place. Based on what I can find from Googling, the problem may be attributed to outdated graphics card drivers. Unfortunately, I have no way to test this since support for my graphics card (which is an older nVidia hybrid type), I believe, has been abandoned for sometime and the latest stable build that I could use is over a year old (186.82 vs 26x.xx). Oh well, I guess I'll look for other options...


----------



## todd77

Well, I believe I've solved my problem by... simply avoiding it altogether. I've assigned all music playing duties to my 6-year old desktop PC running 32bit Windows XP. So far, everything's running without any problems, even when running upsampling DSPs which would usually result in nasty static cut offs with my laptop (well it should be since the PC doesn't do much else other than running Foobar). Anyway, I'm still interested in getting the Hiface and I'm wondering which version would be best for me. My DAC has a coaxial input with an RCA connector. I remember reading from one of the earlier posts in this thread stating that the developers recommend choosing a Hiface that has the same connector as the intended DAC. However, based on Hiface's user manual, choosing the BNC Hiface and then using a cable with both BNC and RCA connectors to an RCA DAC could yield slight improvements. Is this true? Which would you guys recommend for my setup? As I have no coaxial cables at the moment, I'll probably get one (likely a Blue Jeans one too) based on the version of the Hiface that I'm considering of getting.


----------



## leeperry

todd77 said:


> based on the version of the Hiface that I'm considering of getting.


 

 I don't mean to threadcrap or anything, but why not moving on to newer async transports? the V-LINK costs more or less the same as the Hiface, supports 88.2kHz as well, and doesn't require drivers: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Musical-Fidelity-M1DAC-M1HPA-and-V-Link-Async-USB-Converter-Review
   
  This UK reseller even has a coupon that's good until the end of the month: http://www.avforums.com/forums/bargains-special-offers-our-advertisers/1412440-0-off-musical-fidelity-v-link-usb-coaxial-optical-convertor.html
   
  I think I'm gonna pull the trigger and compare it against the Firestone Bravo...what's holding me back is that it's bus powered and god knowns whether there's a discrete clock for 44.1. Also, the manufacturer has made damn sure that you can't send them any email.


----------



## Justin Uthadude

My V-link just went out Fed-Ex. Unfortunately, I don't have a Hiface to compare it to, so I won't be able to help.


----------



## leeperry

some shots of the inside would really rock!


----------



## ccschua

somehow I tried the EVO and it works seamlessly with the drivers, play 24/192 without problem.
   
  however on the hiface, it just does not work.


----------



## elwappo99

Found a posting earlier someone comparing the M2tech and a xonar stx.   I've got a Xonar D2, would i get any improvements by adding this to my system?
   
  Edit: Also I've been looking at the Saffire Pro 24 dsp, any idea how it stacks up? Thanks!


----------



## mrspeakers

V-Link looks nice, but the MTech has up to 192K out, which I've been using to drive my main sound system.  So stuck with a solution using drivers, as I am still not aware of affordable driverless 24/192 interfaces...


----------



## leeperry

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-USB-TO-S_PDIF-Reclocking-Adapter/productinfo/USBADAPTER%2DCL/ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
_"Even highly miniaturized circuits like these suffer from signal-induced internal vibrations. Our Amish woodworkers assemble a beautifully crafted (and ultra-low dielectric absorption) maple enclosure directly to the circuit board, thereby greatly stiffening the board while creating an ample sink for draining internal board vibrations"_


----------



## mrspeakers

Funny...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Found a posting earlier someone comparing the M2tech and a xonar stx.   I've got a Xonar D2, would i get any improvements by adding this to my system?
> 
> Edit: Also I've been looking at the Saffire Pro 24 dsp, any idea how it stacks up? Thanks!


 

 The M2Tech should produce a better signal compared to a consumer level soundcards digital output.  If that is what you are asking?  If you have both sitting around you can do some testing though and decide for yourself.
   
  One of the only reasons I could see for using a soundcard for S/Pdif to a DAC is any features on the card should be avialable through the S/Pdif output also. E.g Dolby routines..etc


----------



## leeperry

mrspeakers said:


> V-Link looks nice, but the MTech has up to 192K out, which I've been using to drive my main sound system.  So stuck with a solution using drivers, as I am still not aware of affordable driverless 24/192 interfaces...


 

 Your Burson only does 24/96 top, though...and there's a 24/192 Tenor chip available, but it requires NDA's to get the datasheet: http://www.google.com/search?&q=tenor%2Bte8802l
   
   USB2.0 Audio Class v2.0 and v1.0
  2-Inputs supported by one I2S pairs with 24bit /192KHz.
   
  But still no 88.2kHz support I guess, and I'm not sure Windows supports class 2.0


----------



## mrspeakers

Burson takes 192K through coax... The Tenor is just for USB...
   
   
Inputs:​       1 x USB Connection (Support up to 24bit @ 96Khz with 10ppm low jitter clock)​       1 x Coaxial RCA (Support up to 24bit @ 192Khz)​


----------



## leeperry

mrspeakers said:


> Burson takes 192K through coax...


 
   
  DIR9001 is capped at 96kHz: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/burson5/24_big.jpg


----------



## mrspeakers

Well this is off Burson's specs.  
   
  I have had trouble with my 192, and Burson made it clear it's supported on coax.  I'm troubleshooting next week when I'm home, but they indicated if there's any problem I should mail the DAC board back to them.  
   
  To be clear, though, I have a main stereo, which I have got 192 working on via the HiFace, which was what I was referring to.  The Burson has been a problem in this regard...


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





robscix said:


> The M2Tech should produce a better signal compared to a consumer level soundcards digital output.  If that is what you are asking?  If you have both sitting around you can do some testing though and decide for yourself.
> 
> One of the only reasons I could see for using a soundcard for S/Pdif to a DAC is any features on the card should be avialable through the S/Pdif output also. E.g Dolby routines..etc


 
   
  Thank you very much for the reply... I think I'll end up grabbing one of these, or that evo is looking more and more tempting, maybe I'll think about that one too. Either way, results will be posted !!!


----------



## paquiem

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Your Burson only does 24/96 top, though...and there's a 24/192 Tenor chip available, but it requires NDA's to get the datasheet: http://www.google.com/search?&q=tenor%2Bte8802l
> 
>  USB2.0 Audio Class v2.0 and v1.0
>  2-Inputs supported by one I2S pairs with 24bit /192KHz.
> ...


 

 Windows can support audio class 2.0 through drivers: http://www.usbdacs.com/hs24192/hs24192.html
   
  I don't understand why people are afraid of drivers. Every system uses drivers. On the mac side the build-in system drivers just support usb audio class 2.0 by default. On the windows side you need updated drivers.
   
  Many DACs have updated firmware that you can only get through service. For example the Audiophilleo can be updated through the usb port. So I see drivers more as a possibility than a weakness.


----------



## mrspeakers

The reason to be "afraid" of drivers is a) new OS' break them, frequently and b) there's a lag between release of OS and support.  For a smaller company, if they produce a product and go out of business, there's no support, and no assurance of future drivers to maintain function.


----------



## upstateguy

I was checking out the Tweak Geek web site yesterday and they are recommending the Harrison Attenuators for RCA HiFaces.  Is there any downside to using an audio attenuator on a coax cable?
   
*"Attenuators* - The hiFace is known to have a pretty high output, too high for some DACS. We have had great success using signal attenuators to get the output to a lower level, and the end result is a smoother sound.

 RCA Attenuators - for RCA hiFaces, the Harrison Labs 12 dB RCA line level attenuators are highly recommended.*"*
   

   
   
http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Portable_Computer_Audio/product/HiFace/M2Tech_HiFace.htm


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I was checking out the Tweak Geek web site yesterday and they are recommending the Harrison Attenuators for RCA HiFaces.  Is there any downside to using an audio attenuator on a coax cable?
> 
> *"Attenuators* - The hiFace is known to have a pretty high output, too high for some DACS. We have had great success using signal attenuators to get the output to a lower level, and the end result is a smoother sound.
> 
> ...


 
   
  This does not look like the right way to attenuate the signal.  Unless this is a 75 ohm stepdown transformer, it could REALLY mess up the signal, especially at higher bit rates. I couldn't find a spec on the device, but from what I could tell, it appears to be meant as a gain adjustment between preamp and amp, or source and preamp.  As such, it's probably a high impedance resistive device, and will not work reliably in a 75ohm setup.


----------



## elwappo99

Question for the group. I've got a BNC Hiface. When using it during normal playback, every 15-20 seconds I get a small click that is a fraction of a second. It's quite irritating, and makes this pretty unusable. Any ideas on how to address this?


----------



## mrspeakers

elwappo99 said:


> Question for the group. I've got a BNC Hiface. When using it during normal playback, every 15-20 seconds I get a small click that is a fraction of a second. It's quite irritating, and makes this pretty unusable. Any ideas on how to address this?




Try their tech support, Marco is quite responsive.


----------



## elwappo99

Thanks for the suggestion. I did figure it out though. It was an issue with my reference 1! If I had more than one source connected, the hiface got completely erradic! So as long as it's the only thing connected, so hiccups at all. 
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Yahoe

Bonjour,

 Marco Manunta from M2tech has sent me the following answer by email on April 30th:

 "I'm afraid hiFace cannot be used with Linux as we didn't develope the driver, nor we have plans to do that so far."

 So we won't be able to use the hiFace with Linux after all. To bad for the millions of Linux users out there.

 Regards.

 Alain-Olivier


----------



## simonleger

I am new to this forum, I joined as I saw this huge thread on the hiface. Basically since I switched from my old mac mini to the new mac mini (the hdmi one) I have problems when watching movies through VLC as I only get stereo output and there seems to be no way to select anything else. The sound does go through the hiface to the receiver but only as stereo. It used to work fine with my previous mac mini but cant figure out the difference...
   
  I have it configure in audio midi setup and when i right click on it to select "configure speakers" it only offers stereo setup. Do other people have the same, is it normal ? Is there something else to do to be able to pass DTS and such... ?
   
  Thanks for your help !


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





simonleger said:


> I am new to this forum, I joined as I saw this huge thread on the hiface. Basically since I switched from my old mac mini to the new mac mini (the hdmi one) I have problems when watching movies through VLC as I only get stereo output and there seems to be no way to select anything else. The sound does go through the hiface to the receiver but only as stereo. It used to work fine with my previous mac mini but cant figure out the difference...
> 
> I have it configure in audio midi setup and when i right click on it to select "configure speakers" it only offers stereo setup. Do other people have the same, is it normal ? Is there something else to do to be able to pass DTS and such... ?
> 
> Thanks for your help !


 

 I use HDMI out of my new mini for home theatre, so I have a different configuration and don't have this problem.  I would suggest your first thing is to verify you have the most recent driver.


----------



## simonleger

This is the first thing I did : went to the website downloaded installed latest driver and rebooted, but did not work. Another difference is that my previous mac was on Leopard vs Snow Leopard now.


----------



## gameguytw

DIYER MOD From Taiwan (courtry on the Earth)
   
  1.MOD Frist Time (Not Good = Fail)







































































  2.MOD Second Time (So Good = Sucess)


----------



## lltfdaniel

I keep hearing cracks and pops like you would with an old vinyl.
   
  Maybe it is the latency jitter???? 
   
  Music plays fine though.


----------



## lltfdaniel

The cracks and pops are not normal.


----------



## mrspeakers

Cracks and pops are not jitter, that's data loss.  It could be multiple possibilities, one is that the high output voltage of the HiFace is overloading your input, another is a driver issue with the HiFace.  Contact M2Tech support and get the latest driver, the driver that was on the website (when I last checked) was not current (why?  who knows.).
   
  It would make debugging easier if you had a second DAC to try.  If not pops, then the problem is the HiFace output voltage.  They can be modified to be S/PDIF voltage spec (they made the voltage much higher than spec to support long cable runs like my 18 footer).


----------



## cYbernation

I'm planing on buying the hiface and connect it to the dacmagic.
  Has anyone experience with this combination?
  Can the dacmagic handle the higher output of the hiface?


----------



## cYbernation

anyone?
  is it common that the hiface overload the input stage of DACs?


----------



## mrspeakers

I have had trouble at 192K on my Burson and my iBasso D12.  I haven't found a good RCA 75ohm 6db attenuator to see if dropping the voltage helps but that is the next step.  I think it was a bad design idea to set the voltage so high, most good cables won't have a huge drop over moderate runs.


----------



## cYbernation

That doesn't sound really encouraging.
  I'm still wondering if the spdif output of my alc892 onboard chip is really bitperfect using wasapi.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





cybernation said:


> That doesn't sound really encouraging.
> I'm still wondering if the spdif output of my alc892 onboard chip is really bitperfect using wasapi.


 

 Bitperfect output isn't a function of the card, it's a function of the music player.  The card will simply output whatever the music player sends it.  I'm not a Windows guy, but a lot of them seem to like Foobar for bit perfect output.
   
  The point of the card is to have reduced jitter.  The M2Tech is also able to drive very long cables, which is why they put the gain in.  It works great up to 96K, and I'm running an 18' cable.  The problem is 192 for my devices.  It could also be my card, but as I have no 192 source I don't lose sleep over it.


----------



## Freeze

192 is complete overkill anyways. There is no one on the earth that can reliably blind A/B an exact audio file 192 vs 96


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





freeze said:


> 192 is complete overkill anyways. There is no one on the earth that can reliably blind A/B an exact audio file 192 vs 96


 
   
  Golly, nothing like a giant sweeping generalization to finish the day....


----------



## xdanny

Hi,

 I get this error when I try to use WASAPI: Unrecoverable playback error: Unsupported buffer size (0x88890016)
  
   
  Here is some info:

 -foobar 1.1.8
 -just downloaded WASAPI
 -brand new computer, Pentium 3 ghz, 4 gigs ram, windows 7 64bit home premium edition.
 -I get the error in all modes: 16, 24 and 32 bit in foobar preferences/output
  -in foobar's preferences/output I selected WASAPI-hiface option
 -I tried setting the buffer to the max with no change
 -I disabled all unnecessary sounds in Windows
  -I installed the m2Tech drivers for Windows7- 64 bit.
 -it works in DS mode...

 Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





xdanny said:


> Hi,
> 
> I get this error when I try to use WASAPI: Unrecoverable playback error: Unsupported buffer size (0x88890016)
> 
> ...


 

 Go into preference then Output. Look for the buffer sliding thingy. That buffer number cannot exceed 1000


----------



## xdanny

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Go into preference then Output. Look for the buffer sliding thingy. That buffer number cannot exceed 1000


 


 THANK YOU !! THANK YOU!!  I was going nuts!


----------



## gregorio

mrspeakers said:


> Golly, nothing like a giant sweeping generalization to finish the day....




He's right though when he says no one has managed to identify the difference in DBT. If you like sweeping generalizations though, here's another for you: 192k is inferior quality to 96k!

G


----------



## mrspeakers

Technically I agree with you, and lot's of quantifiable tests and data verify that so as a generalization at least there's a real basis for the statement.  I can generalize and say "atoms are all very small" and that'd stand up to scrutiny, too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  All my gear is optimized around 88.2 or 96K.  
   
  I don't rule out that 192 won't get better, but right now the technology isn't there to make it linear and accurate, and I'm not aware of any 192 ADC or DAC that is more linear and lower noise than a 96K, though there may well be...


----------



## 405line

I have been using the USB hiface for about a 2/3 weeks now, got a Belkin F5U237QEA Hi-Speed USB 2.0 7-port Hub to power it as using the computer (USB) or switched mode based power was a no-no for me regardless of the internal regulators etc, my assumption/reasoning is if the hiface is expecting the PSU to be potentially noisy/varying and the actual PSU is then less noisy (I hope) and likely more stable, then the PSU quality to the to the hiface internals should now be very clean and even more stable.The Belkin hub came with an unregulated 6v/4A linear PSU which should be a good thing and I will keep my fingers crossed that the Belkin hub does a good job of regulating and filtering the 5v supply. I also for good measure bought a  _Belkin Premium_ Series _USB_ 2.0 to 5-Pin _Mini_-_B Cable_ 1.8M  >>>(link for illustration purposes only) as they are gold plated, have screened conductors and are seemingly very well made, the mini-B end fits the hub more securely than the supplied cable and can be had for about £3.50...why not?.
   
  I stick to x2 upsampling (which in practice means 88.2/96khz as seen by the Hiface/DAC I think) use 24 bit mode as it apparently stops you losing resolution when you "turn down" the volume and I always stick to kernal streaming mode, 2 reasons...1, It was the original operating mode for the hiface and I guess the most developed of the drivers and 2, the wasapi mode sometimes gives some buffer messages that I do not ever get in kernal mode. I set my other USB sound card as the default sound card as that it connected to my A/V setup via toslink, the hiface usually is just used by Foobar and is connected to the DAC/hifi/..no need to change or swap soundcards for general browsing and all other windows mixer applications, you can even have both sounds at the same time. My understanding is that the hiface "clocks out" the data to the DAC from the p.c so I use about 200ms of buffer..I suppose if you are multi tasking your own p.c you might want to use a little more buffer to ensure you don't get dropouts while the p.c is otherwise engaged.
   
  On sound quality..just brillant in all departments even on less than perfect mp3's...not as nice as analogue but the sound has great seperation, a more organized and 3D sound stage and the quality of the bass is like no CD or digital player i've ever heard, smooth, not the usual digital "hammering bass" but more subtle, extended and textured too ..might be because of the precision clocks etc coupled with the fact that the sound/digits are no longer meandering through the various windows sound mixers. Looks like I finally can accept digital as good and possibly excellent sounding..maybe I should have had my previous CD players clocked. Made me hear things I never heard before and made me listen to tracks I previously may not have listened to. Be in no doubt the Hi-Face is worth every single penny if you have a DAC and a p.c...it sure ain't hype.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





405line said:


> On sound quality..just brillant in all departments *even on less than perfect mp3's*...*not as nice as analogue* but the sound has great seperation, a more organized and 3D sound stage and the quality of the bass is like no CD or digital player i've ever heard, smooth, not the usual digital "hammering bass" but more subtle, extended and textured too ..might be because of the precision clocks etc coupled with the fact that the sound/digits are no longer meandering through the various windows sound mixers. Looks like I finally can accept digital as good and possibly excellent sounding..maybe I should have had my previous CD players clocked. *Made me hear things I never heard before *and made me listen to tracks I previously may not have listened to.


----------



## waterl00

Hi,
   
  I have a Hiface here with AMD 760G chipset board, running on Windows 7 Prof. SP1 64 bit. 
   
  Unfortunally I have the same problem as many others had when connecting
  the Hiface to the USB port. The Audioplayer (jriver, foobar) freezes, audio controll freezes, etc.
   
  I read some posts about this common problem but could not find a solution yet.
   
  Is there any fix available for this problem? 
   
  Thanks and regards
  Loo


----------



## korpijaakko

I wonder if you more tech-savvy people could clarify something for me.
  
 I recently got a Steam Link which works fine except no audio when streaming to my TV.
 The hookup is: ethernet cable from mb to 4G router -> ethernet to Link -> HDMI to TV.
  
 There is sound when not streaming, that is, the HDMI audio connection works between the Link & TV.
  
  
 The question is if it's even possible for Steam to capture audio & send it to the Link using HiFace as the only playback device?
 (Win 10 Pro 64-bit)


----------



## paaj

I'd say the playback device on the server should have not impact on the Link sound output, but you can try enabling the onboard audio in W10 (and maybe remove HiFace) and see if it changes? Troubleshooting step 1.
  
 Also, check if the sound output of the Link/Game is in PCM stereo, PCM signal has the widest support in televisions. Maybe it just gets a surround signal it doesn't understand.


----------



## korpijaakko

Onboard Realtek didn't work either, sob!
  
 I disabled hiFace, stereo from Steam/Link settings, audio streaming enabled... Any ideas?


----------



## korpijaakko

Well, I disabled everything except hiFace but the real culprit was the audio setting in Link. Switched to auto detect (5.1) and voila! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Games and video seems to work but not music which isn't a big a deal anyway.


----------



## musickid

HELP NEEDED.....

Ive been using usb on my dacs till now. im buying a gunjnir multibit and a breeze du-u8 usb to spdif convertor in april. i prefer coax here. im new to coax implementation and have these two questions..

1)is it a matter of importance that the convertor has galvanic isolation built in to offer the same protection that say an intona can. i rarely see this described in the specs as on the breeze unit or other convertors. or is usbisolation something different here. i understand optical is not affected for eg.

2)is a chain as i will be using due to budgetary limits and a believer in keeping things simple okay like this...*imac--bridge(du u8 breeze)--gungnir multibit dac. with decent cable connections*. is this enough without the need for extra hardware tweaks (psu's ,regens etc) to do a good job. i understand the breeze convertor has excellent feedback low jitter etc.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I recommend that you take a look at the Singxer F-1 , or X-1. I had the breeze, and the X-1 smokes the breeze in every aspect. By a lot. 

Just my $0.02
Cheers



musickid said:


> [COLOR=333333]HELP NEEDED.....[/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]Ive been using [/COLOR]usb[COLOR=333333] on my dacs till now. im buying a gunjnir multibit and a breeze du-u8 [/COLOR]usb[COLOR=333333] to spdif convertor in april. i prefer coax here. im new to coax implementation and have these two questions..[/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> ...


----------



## winders

This thing is supposed to rock:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## Guidostrunk

+1 , comes highly regarded in the XMOS USB bridge thread. 





winders said:


> This thing is supposed to rock:
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------

