# That night and day thing the cable skeptics fear...



## earwicker7

I've found it... the holy grail of power cables, one that makes a difference so audible a semi-deaf person could hear it!

 As many of you know, even the best digital circuits on CD Players are somewhat noisy. No matter how good your power supply, amps, headphones, interconnects, etc., there is usually going to be some digital interference noise if you run a CD player. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, do the following... make sure you have your CD player selected as the input. Power up the CD player, but don't play anything. Crank the volume up all the way. You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud. "So what?" you're thinking... "I never crank my amp up all the way, I'd go deaf!" Well, dial it back to your normal listening level and, now that you know what you're listening for, you should still be able to hear it without straining too much.

 I had come to the conclusion that this was just something I had to live with. I tried switching from the stock power cable to the cheapest Cardas cable; there may have been a difference, but I couldn't hear it. I knew that the very lowest of low level details was disappearing in this hiss, and I just had to let life go on. Then I saw something in the Music Direct catalog that peaked my interest. Shunyata makes a power cable with a patented (not the "proprietary" stuff the skeptics always make fun of) digital noise reduction compound added to the cable. It was really expensive, but Music Direct offers a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy, so I figured "What the hell?" I had returned a few things that I didn't like and they quickly gave me the money back.

 Interested in playing around with the placebo effect, I decided to not test the hiss level right away, as this would be too easy. Instead, I listened to some music that I knew well to see if it sounded different. The main thing I noticed was that the decay of the notes on well recorded piano CDs was much more evident. Hmm, seems like the low level detail is indeed more apparent, which led me to believe that there was less of that digital noise involved. But again, at this point it could have certainly been placebo. So, I then did the hiss test. At the halfway point, where hiss was normally fairly apparent, there was dead silence. At the full point, where hiss was normally LOUD, there was a tiny bit, but it was literally a whisper, probably 5% of the original volume.

 I think this is about as close to you can get to proof that the "Power cables can't possibly effect the sound" belief is wrong. This is the proverbial night and day proof skeptics have claimed they would never see. It's not (as they like to dismissively call it) "flowery language" like more weight, more air between instruments, etc. This is digital noise disappearing to the point that it is only BARELY audible if you crank your amp up all the way. Maybe some skeptics will be unable to give up the ghost and say that high levels of noise won't obscure low level details, but unless you believe this a**-backward nuttiness, I think the debate has just been settled.


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## Vul Kuolun

Would be interesting, if the noise you get from turning up the volume hadn't its origin most likely in the amp, not in the cdp.

 While not playing anything, your CDP will in all likelyhood completely mute his outputs, so the noise you heard could probably have been from nearly everywhere, except the CDP.

 Placebo can be realy amazing, don't you think?


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## bigshot

Edit: Sorry... I scanned the first time through. I went back and read that second paragraph more closely. Vul Kuolun is absolutely right. Any hiss when a CD player isn't playing anything is a result of the amp, not the CD player. Cabling would make absolutely no difference.

 Original response: I don't think anyone claims that cables can't affect the sound. Sure, a cable could be designed that would hobble the high or low end. However, if a cable is designed to conduct properly and is reasonably well built, it will perform exactly the same as any other properly designed and well built cable.

 The cable you've got there seems to be attenuating the high frequencies where the hiss lies. A tone control would do basically the same thing, with the added advantage of being adjustable.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Tarkovsky

Ouch.


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## soundfreq

as the other camp would say: that's not DBT! I want my DBT!


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would be interesting, if the noise you get from turning up the volume hadn't its origin most likely in the amp, not in the cdp.

 While not playing anything, your CDP will in all likelyhood completely mute his outputs, so the noise you heard could probably have been from nearly everywhere, except the CDP.

 Placebo can be realy amazing, don't you think? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nope, doesn't happen with any other inputs, only when the CD Player is running. 

 Denial can be realy amazing, don't you think?


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## UseName

Perhaps you have a ground loop...


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think anyone claims that cables can't affect the sound. Sure, a cable could be designed that would hobble the high or low end. However, if a cable is designed to conduct properly and is reasonably well built, it will perform exactly the same as any other properly designed and well built cable.

 The cable you've got there seems to be attenuating the high frequencies where the hiss lies. A tone control would do basically the same thing, with the added advantage of being adjustable.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Please, there are TONS of people that claim power cords can't affect sound
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . They've heckled almost every post I've made about them.

 The cable isn't doing anything negative to the high frequencies; I've heard that this can be a problem with power cords that use ferrite, but this isn't one of them. The high frequencies are still there, and in some cases where they are at a low level (dB wise) show up much more, as they aren't competing with the digital interference anymore.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, doesn't happen with any other inputs, only when the CD Player is running. 

 Denial can be realy amazing, don't you think? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What do you mean with "running"? Connected? Switched on? CD playing a "digital zero"-signal?

 And your amp does not give any hiss with any other input with a device connnected?

 Did you check for ground loops?


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you have a ground loop..._

 

I can't be the only person here who knows about the digital noise thing, am I?

 There's nothing wrong with my system, it's a well known (well, it should be
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) fact that digital circuits are highly succeptible to picking up interference and this noise shows up on a really resolving system. At least it did until I put the Shunyata on; now it's virtually gone.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, doesn't happen with any other inputs, only when the CD Player is running. 

 Denial can be realy amazing, don't you think? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ground loops are also really amazing... well.. more annoying than amazing.


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## JohnFerrier

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Power up the CD player, but don't play anything. Crank the volume up all the way. You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud._

 

Your source/system doesn't seem like it mets decent specs. Volume all the way up, I can't tell if my system is on or off, until I hit play.


 .


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you mean with "running"? Connected? Switched on? CD playing a "digital zero"-signal?

 And your amp does not give any hiss with any other input with a device connnected?

 Did you check for ground loops?_

 

Well, my CD Player (Linn Akurate) is one of those "always on" CD Players, but this happens when it is in standby, when it is powered on but not playing, and during play. And the amp has zero noise with other inputs.

 When I first got the amp, I called Ray about it, as I assumed something was wrong. Immediately, he said "It's only on the digital players, right?" I told him this was the case, and he explained digital circuit noise to me. I did a bit of browsing and found that this is indeed a common problem.

 Long story short... I don't see how there's any wiggle room anymore for the "Power Cables can't change sound" idea. Hopefully we can all get along now


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## Uncle Erik

Sounds like a grounding issue with your amp.

 I don't experience the "hiss" you described with my player and amp. I got my power cord free with a computer power supply.

 How can my cheap power cord perform the same as your Shunyata?

 Further, the hiss should be a measurable waveform. Use an oscilloscope to measure the waveform coming out of your wall socket. Then plug the power cord into the same socket and measure again with the oscilloscope. If the power cord is making a night and day difference, it'll show up.

 I'd be happy to admit you're right if you prove it.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't be the only person here who knows about the digital noise thing, am I?

 There's nothing wrong with my system, it's a well known (well, it should be
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) fact that digital circuits are highly succeptible to picking up interference and this noise shows up on a really resolving system. At least it did until I put the Shunyata on; now it's virtually gone._

 

Enlighten me as to how a powercord would make any difference.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ If you're not sure what I'm talking about, do the following... make sure you have your CD player selected as the input. Power up the CD player, but don't play anything. Crank the volume up all the way. *You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud. *_

 

I have no idea at all what you are hearing.

 With my SA8001 feeding my CK²III into HD600's.....nothing playing......level of the CK²III maxed......I hear nothing. Nothing at all regardless of where I set the volume.

 With my 0404 USB feeding the same amp and headphones......connected via USB......no player app running......I hear nothing.

 They're all using stock cords plugged into a $10 power strip that I bought in 1988. The 0404 USB is powered by a wall wart plugged into that strip.

 That claim in bold is *the most preposterous piece of rot *that I have ever read on this forum. How can you be so presumptuous that other gear would suffer from the same problem as your Linn?


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your source doesn't seem like it mets decent specs. I can't tell if my system is on or off, until I hit play.


 ._

 

Dude, did you read my signature? The Linn Akurate is considered one of the best CD players on the market.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no idea at all what you are hearing.

 With my SA8001 feeding my CK²III into HD600's.....nothing playing......level of the CK²III maxed......I hear nothing. Nothing at all regardless of where I set the volume.

 With my 0404 USB feeding the same amp and headphones......connected via USB......no player app running......I hear nothing.

 That claim in bold is the most preposterous piece of rot that I have ever read on this forum._

 


 Meh, go easy on him...the kid probably had some kind of ground loop, had a 2 minute conversation about digital noise, then swapped powercords and corrected the problem. Then got excited, exagerated the claim about the 'holy grail' and now is on the defensive.


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## mark_h

_over and over and over and over, like a monkey playing minature cymbals_


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## earwicker7

Wow, people are getting defensive. The interference, like any interference, may not show up if you live in the middle of the woods, so maybe I should have clarified that this may not happen to EVERYONE. But plenty of people do have this problem, and plenty of head-in-the-sand types refuse to believe that power cords can change sound. Am I going to have to invite people over to my house to proove this?


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## earwicker7

Could people please explain how, since every power cord is coming out of my Nordost Thor, I would have a ground loop only on my CD Player? How would this be possible.

 It's not a ground loop, people.


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## JustPhilbo

Well, I am glad you solved your hiss problem. 

 I am not convinced that either power cable was causal in either direction, but that does not matter if it sounds better to you, I suppose. I do wish I could experience this phenomena myself, I truly do. 

 Enjoy listening!


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, people are getting defensive. The interference, like any interference, may not show up if you live in the middle of the woods, so maybe I should have clarified that this may not happen to EVERYONE. But plenty of people do have this problem, and plenty of head-in-the-sand types refuse to believe that power cords can change sound. Am I going to have to invite people over to my house to proove this?_

 

Nobody is on the defensive but you... you are the one making the claim, others are simply saying they don't experience the same thing that you said they WOULD hear, "Night and Day" difference. 

 Others still are offering other reasons for your problem (i.e. ground loop). 

 As far as 'Head in the Sand' types... there isn't really any evidence to show a difference between 2 well-made, properly spec power cables. This would make the 'skeptic' view the conservative opinion. No point buying expensive cables if they don't make a difference.


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## JustPhilbo

Just a curious question, if you swap the original cable back in, does the hiss return as well?


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## chesebert

feels like an eps of 1 vs 100 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 with the 100 copy/paste their arguments from prior threads (I am sure you all have your arguments save in a note pad file...all loaded up and ready to fire).....the state of this forum is laughable.


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## JohnFerrier

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any hiss when a CD player isn't playing anything is a result of the amp, not the CD player._

 

Well, if it's dependent on the volume setting, I expect the noise source to be upstream from the volume control.


 .


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## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, did you read my signature? The Linn Akurate is considered one of the best CD players on the market._

 

Marketing ain't reality. I'm not saying your player is bad, but keep in mind that a lot of what you read in audio is designed to move products. "Normal" members of audio forums quietly earn commissions on sales.

 I think it is valuable to visit other websites than here. There are other audio and headphone websites where products that are never criticized here are savaged in the forums. And by highly qualified members, as well.

 And high price tag items are not always the best. Get a Consumer Reports car guide and check out the reliability of the most expensive cars. Audio isn't any different.


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## earwicker7

Ok, one more time... all of my power comes from a single source, my Nordost Thor. How do I get a selective ground loop that only affects one component? And when I switch CD Players, it also just affects that CD player?

 As to the properly spec'd cables... I'm supposed to assume that the stock cable that Linn includes with their $7k CD player is bad, the Cardas cable that I got was also bad, and the Shunyata just happens to be good. Sorry, I just can't live in that world.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could people please explain how, since every power cord is coming out of my Nordost Thor, I would have a ground loop only on my CD Player? How would this be possible.

 It's not a ground loop, people._

 

If you've ever had the (dis)pleasure of working with ground loops you would know that it isn't always easy to determine the exact cause of the problem, and is often a combination of things that contribute to the problem. 

 Is the CD player powering the speakers/headphones? If not, then it's not affecting *just* the CD player, it's affecting the entire curcuit that the CD player is connected.


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## JustPhilbo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, one more time... all of my power comes from a single source, my Nordost Thor. How do I get a selective ground loop that only affects one component? And when I switch CD Players, it also just affects that CD player?

 As to the properly spec'd cables... I'm supposed to assume that the stock cable that Linn includes with their $7k CD player is bad, the Cardas cable that I got was also bad, and the Shunyata just happens to be good. Sorry, I just can't live in that world._

 

You may have missed where I asked if you have tried switching the old cable back in and see if the hiss returns. Is that something you have tried yet?


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marketing ain't reality. I'm not saying your player is bad, but keep in mind that a lot of what you read in audio is designed to move products. "Normal" members of audio forums quietly earn commissions on sales.

 I think it is valuable to visit other websites than here. There are other audio and headphone websites where products that are never criticized here are savaged in the forums. And by highly qualified members, as well.

 And high price tag items are not always the best. Get a Consumer Reports car guide and check out the reliability of the most expensive cars. Audio isn't any different._

 

So the Opus 21 was also a poor CD player? Cause it picked up the same digital interference.


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## Kees

I see several people going on about a ground loop, but wouldn't a ground loop be audible on ANY INPUT?????
 It was clearly stated that the hum/hiss is only on one input channel: the CD player.
 Second: there is a real audible (measurable no doubt) difference after changing the power cord of the CD PLAYER. 

 I mean.....????????? Do I miss something???????


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_feels like an eps of 1 vs 100 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 with the 100 copy/paste their arguments from prior threads (I am sure you all have your arguments save in a note pad file...all loaded up and ready to fire).....the state of this forum is laughable._

 

Nobody is against him, he posted a problem with his system, and found a solution. I think everyone would be happiest if we find the actual reason for his problems, and why that solution worked. 

 I enjoy participating in a forum that is willing to work through different solutions.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JustPhilbo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You may have missed where I asked if you have tried switching the old cable back in and see if the hiss returns. Is that something you have tried yet?_

 

Yep. The hiss was also there with my old CD player.

 Perhaps this is just me being a perfectionist. Maybe others have this hiss, but it is so quiet unless you crank your amp that they just never noticed it. But making it go away seems to add some details that I hadn't picked up on before.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see several people going on about a ground loop, but wouldn't a ground loop be audible on ANY INPUT?????_

 

I asked the same thing. It's not a ground loop, people are just reaching because they don't want to admit the possibility that a cable believer is right.


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## JustPhilbo

And I am going to ask one more time, does the hiss return when the original cable is put back into the configuration?

 If not, then the hiss was caused by something other than the power cable. 

 I'm just looking for more information here.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see several people going on about a ground loop, but wouldn't a ground loop be audible on ANY INPUT?????
 It was clearly stated that the hum/hiss is only on one input channel: the CD player.
 Second: there is a real audible (measurable no doubt) difference after changing the power cord of the CD PLAYER. 

 I mean.....????????? Do I miss something???????_

 

No... By switching input devices you are changing the cct. 

 I would be interested in the frequency that the hiss is happening.


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## mark_h

They look really good, and they have cool names but man are they expensive!


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## Brian_the_King

I feel like people need to find a happy medium here on some of these discussions, give each other a little leeway.. 
 Don't tell me some of you that have replied can turn up your amplifier to 100% and not hear even the slightest amount of hissing/white noise.. 
 I mean I believe earwickers claim that his cable did indeed reduce hiss in his system, but I also believe this this added detail during listening he speaks of is placebo.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked the same thing. It's not a ground loop, people are just reaching because they don't want to admit the possibility that a cable believer is right._

 

It's not reaching... hissing (especially in quality components) is usually caused by a ground loop. 

 Here is a decent article on ground loops:

Ground loop problems and how to get rid of them


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As many of you know, even the best digital circuits on CD Players are somewhat noisy. No matter how good your power supply, amps, headphones, interconnects, etc., there is usually going to be some digital interference noise if you run a CD player. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, do the following... make sure you have your CD player selected as the input. Power up the CD player, but don't play anything. Crank the volume up all the way. You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud. _

 

My combo is silent at full volume with CD player connected but not playing, I have done this test many many times with the same result. I have had many CD players since my first gen 14 x 4 in 1984 and none of them have ever shown any notable noise problems. 

 Now if you can measure these differences and post the results then it would be more interesting.

 How about this ?

 1 Record a CD with a minute of digital silence, you can find a silent wav file here...

CD-R Files

 2 Then play the CD back and record the digital output from the CD player using the digital in on your soundcard, with the two different cables connected to your CD player. You might want to do this 5 or 6 times to cater for random variation, a well-known phenomenon. 

 If there is more digital noise with the bog-end cable it will be obvious on the recordings. Host them somewhere we can download them and we can judge for ourselves.

 or 

 Just digitize the analog outputs, this is pretty easy to do but you will get more random variation, so you will need to do this at least 5 times for each cable. If you are right the differences should be obvious to everyone.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brian_the_King* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel like people need to find a happy medium here on some of these discussions, give each other a little leeway.. 
 Don't tell me some of you that have replied can turn up your amplifier to 100% and not hear even the slightest amount of hissing/white noise.. 
 I mean I believe earwickers claim that his cable did indeed reduce hiss in his system, but I also believe this this added detail during listening he speaks of is placebo._

 

I agree, I have no doubt that he noticed a difference and it was corrected by a different cable. However, this is no reason to start spending hundreds or thousands on power cables, power conditioners, and connectors.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JustPhilbo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I am going to ask one more time, does the hiss return when the original cable is put back into the configuration?

 If not, then the hiss was caused by something other than the power cable. 

 I'm just looking for more information here._

 

I've had three cables in there... stock, Cardas, and the Shunyata. I've put the original back in. The only one that takes care of it is the Shunyata.


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## JustPhilbo

Hmmm, just thought of something. Is it possible that the ground leg of the new cable isn't connected end to end, in other words no continuuity? If there was a ground loop between CD player and power supply, that would certainly break it. <grin>


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## Brian_the_King

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...However, this is no reason to start spending hundreds or thousands on power cables, power conditioners, and connectors._

 

Well I certainly agree with you there. It pains me to no end seeing people walk out of BB with a $3000 LCD set, a $600 HTiB, and a $300 conditioning unit, not to speak of some of the people here spending so much on power cables etc.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brian_the_King* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel like people need to find a happy medium here on some of these discussions, give each other a little leeway.. 
 Don't tell me some of you that have replied can turn up your amplifier to 100% and not hear even the slightest amount of hissing/white noise.. 
 I mean I believe earwickers claim that his cable did indeed reduce hiss in his system, but I also believe this this added detail during listening he speaks of is placebo._

 

Wouldn't it make sense that the hiss would have covered up some of the (extremely) low level details? I'm not talking about "Hey, I never knew there was a second guitar" type stuff; more along the lines of fingers brushing across guitar strings and hearing the pianist's feet on the pedals.


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## sejarzo

I just took a look at a picture of the back of the Linn player, and it does have a three conductor IEC........so JustPhilbo's thought is spot on. There is a good reason that most consumer audio gear doesn't have a three-prong IEC and cord, but only a two-conductor.....to prevent ground loops and noise! 

 earwicker7, do you have a DMM or continuity tester? See if all of the cables you have used have the ground pin on the wall plug connected to the corresponding contact on the IEC end.


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## Brian_the_King

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't it make sense that the hiss would have covered up some of the (extremely) low level details? I'm not talking about "Hey, I never knew there was a second guitar" type stuff; more along the lines of fingers brushing across guitar strings and hearing the pianist's feet on the pedals._

 

It does make sense to me, but I mean you are talking about the reduction a barely audible sound at maximum volume. I really do not see the reduction of this tiny amount of interference taking an active place at your normal listening levels.

 Set the volume to a comfortably high level. Can you hear any hiss, with either cord? I would hope not, with the spec of your gear. The more I think about it, the more it seems you are saying the improvement is a subconscious, yet appreciable one.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JustPhilbo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, just thought of something. Is it possible that the ground leg of the new cable isn't connected end to end, in other words no continuuity? If there was a ground loop between CD player and power supply, that would certainly break it. <grin>_

 

Sure, but I don't think it even needs to be that severe. Anything that would cause a difference reference voltage between cables could cause it.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't it make sense that the hiss would have covered up some of the (extremely) low level details?_

 

I have to be blunt: if you were experiencing that level of hiss in your system without the miracle power cable, something was wrong. The player might be designed to be totally quiet, but how can you be certain that there isn't a bad connection from signal ground to chassis ground in your player due to a component that is faulty after a power surge or something like that?


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just took a look at a picture of the back of the Linn player, and it does have a three conductor IEC........so JustPhilbo's thought is spot on. There is a good reason that most consumer audio gear doesn't have a three-prong IEC and cord, but only a two-conductor.....to prevent ground loops and noise! 

 earwicker7, do you have a DMM or continuity tester? See if all of the cables you have used have the ground pin on the wall plug connected to the corresponding contact on the IEC end._

 

Linn is of course a UK brand and all our home electric plugs are grounded three pin types from TVs down to kettles, we also put fuses in the plugs, easier to replace


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_earwicker7, do you have a DMM or continuity tester?_

 

No, I don't.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to be blunt: if you were experiencing that level of hiss in your system without the miracle power cable, something was wrong. The player might be designed to be totally quiet, but how can you be certain that there isn't a bad connection from signal ground to chassis ground in your player due to a component that is faulty after a power surge or something like that?_

 

I think people might be misinterpreting the levels that I'm speaking of. The B-52 is an EXTREMELY loud headphone amp, capable of pushing cans quite a bit further than most. I never listen to it at half level unless it is a really quiet recording. If I were to do so, I would have to strain to hear the hiss, and it would only be audible during silent sections. The hiss is very obvious at full blast, but I'd be willing to bet that the B-52's full blast is three or four times as loud as most headphone amps (it certainly is much louder than my HeadRoom Balanced Desktop). Full blast on a B-52 is immediate hearing damage.

 This is about an audio obsessive. 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out. But I'm looking for perfection, and I am a firm believer in low level details being the heart of music reproduction.


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## JustPhilbo

Here is an interesting read from HDTV magazine HDTV Magazine - HDTV Forum - View topic - Grounding - hum, noise bars, interference


 Annoying Ground Loops 

 Most consumer equipment does not have the ground pin but some do and depending on your application may be the source of a ground loop. First step is to understand that every electronic product must be referenced to a common point we call ground. This can be floating, very common, or referenced to the AC power or an antenna cable. For this example it is floating and an antenna cable is not being used in the system. So lets say you have a component audio system and your CD player is one of those hi-end jobs and has a three pin AC cord and this is plugged into your wall outlet. It runs to a preamp and from there across the room to power amplifiers which also have the 3 pin AC plug and they are plugged into a different wall outlet. More than likely this system will have a hum problem due to a ground loop. The ground of the interconnect cables creates the correct reference point between the components. Like most consumer products the CD player and amps have tied the circuit and case to the ground pin of the AC plug. This creates another ground connection using the house wiring between them. This creates a ground loop between the interconnect cables and the house wiring and ground current is divided unequally between them. This is what causes the hum because the circuits no longer have a clear ground reference for the signals connected to them. *This is easily resolved by defeating one of the ground pin of one of the plugs*. Another method, quite rare, is that one of the units has a ground switch that will disconnect the circuit ground from the case. This will eliminate the ground loop while retaining RF shielding for the circuits because the case is grounded via the AC cord. Even if you disconnect the ground pin on a unit the case is still performing RF shielding provided you have at least one unit in the system connected to AC ground. With that information you can also see why you would not want to float a system where you want the best performance. You would not have any RF shielding.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I don't._

 

If I were a gambling chappie my money would be on expectation bias. 

 How about doing the test I suggested earlier ?

 So far there are lots of explanations or solutions for a problem that so far has not been empirically proven and may not exist at all.

 As for the Linn, this is a CD player created by a guy who was convinced that just having a passive digital clock in the same room as a turntable would degrade the sound


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JustPhilbo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is an interesting read from HDTV magazine HDTV Magazine - HDTV Forum - View topic - Grounding - hum, noise bars, interference


 Annoying Ground Loops 

 Most consumer equipment does not have the ground pin but some do and depending on your application may be the source of a ground loop. First step is to understand that every electronic product must be referenced to a common point we call ground. This can be floating, very common, or referenced to the AC power or an antenna cable. For this example it is floating and an antenna cable is not being used in the system. So lets say you have a component audio system and your CD player is one of those hi-end jobs and has a three pin AC cord and this is plugged into your wall outlet. It runs to a preamp and from there across the room to power amplifiers which also have the 3 pin AC plug and they are plugged into a different wall outlet. More than likely this system will have a hum problem due to a ground loop. The ground of the interconnect cables creates the correct reference point between the components. Like most consumer products the CD player and amps have tied the circuit and case to the ground pin of the AC plug. This creates another ground connection using the house wiring between them. This creates a ground loop between the interconnect cables and the house wiring and ground current is divided unequally between them. This is what causes the hum because the circuits no longer have a clear ground reference for the signals connected to them. *This is easily resolved by defeating one of the ground pin of one of the plugs*. Another method, quite rare, is that one of the units has a ground switch that will disconnect the circuit ground from the case. This will eliminate the ground loop while retaining RF shielding for the circuits because the case is grounded via the AC cord. Even if you disconnect the ground pin on a unit the case is still performing RF shielding provided you have at least one unit in the system connected to AC ground. With that information you can also see why you would not want to float a system where you want the best performance. You would not have any RF shielding._

 

Guys, I know what a ground loop sounds like!!! It's a hum, not radio-like (fluctuating) interference.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about doing the test I suggested earlier ?_

 

My computer is on the opposite side of my apartment, I'm not sure if I have enough cable to reach it. It's not a laptop either
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll see if I can figure out a way to do it.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think people might be misinterpreting the levels that I'm speaking of. The B-52 is an EXTREMELY loud headphone amp, capable of pushing cans quite a bit further than most. I never listen to it at half level unless it is a really quiet recording. _

 

I never listen to my M^3 at above 1/4 level unless it is a really quiet recording, even then at half volume it is really loud into 580s. At no point however do I have any noise problems, ever.

  Quote:


 If I were to do so, I would have to strain to hear the hiss, and it would only be audible during silent sections. The hiss is very obvious at full blast, but I'd be willing to bet that the B-52's full blast is three or four times as loud as most headphone amps (it certainly is much louder than my HeadRoom Balanced Desktop). Full blast on a B-52 is immediate hearing damage. 
 

So it is a problem that isnt actually a problem in the real world at all ?

  Quote:


 This is about an audio obsessive. 
 

No argument here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out. But I'm looking for perfection, and I am a firm believer in low level details being the heart of music reproduction. 
 

So lets see if I have this straight. A power cable makes a night and day difference to 1% of people who are actively listening for defects at super high levels and who would never even listen at the levels where any difference would be audible since they would instantly burst their eardrums ? ...but knowing that a difference can exist at these theoretical levels are happy to invest in kit to solve this problem that isn't by most rational criteria a problem as such .


----------



## earwicker7

Two points... 

 1. I have a very resolving, high power setup. It's possible that people don't know what I'm referring to (most people seem to be drawing a blank) when I talk about the digital noise because their system doesn't put stuff under a microscope like mine does. I don't hear the same music when I listen to my HeadRoom Desktop setup; it's a sweet setup, but things are much less resolved on it.

 2. The digital noise reduction compound is patented. I'm not a patent lawyer, but doesn't there have to be some evidence that it does what it says to get a patent?


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So lets see if I have this straight. A power cable makes a night and day difference to 1% of people who are actively listening for defects at super high levels and who would never even listen at the levels where any difference would be audible since they would instantly burst their eardrums ? ...but knowing that a difference can exist at these theoretical levels are happy to invest in kit to solve this problem that isn't by most rational criteria a problem as such ._

 

Well, the night and day reference was specifically aimed at the fact that you can make the noise disappear, which (IMO) is proof that power cables can change the sound. I wouldn't say there was a night and day change in actual performance during normal listening, although there seemed to be a small amount. It just proves (to me, at least) that power cables can have SOME effect on sound, which seems to a big bone of contention.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Two points... 

 1. I have a very resolving, high power setup. It's possible that people don't know what I'm referring to (most people seem to be drawing a blank) when I talk about the digital noise because their system doesn't put stuff under a microscope like mine does. I don't hear the same music when I listen to my HeadRoom Desktop setup; it's a sweet setup, but things are much less resolved on it.

 2. The digital noise reduction compound is patented. I'm not a patent lawyer, but doesn't there have to be some evidence that it does what it says to get a patent?_

 

Nick_Charles pretty much covered 1 better than I could. 

 2. Absolutely not! Patent protects the inventor's invention, if the invention is garbage, the garbage is protected. There doesn't have to be proof of it working anywhere. Unfortunately, many people think it means something, so you will always see "Patented Design" on many products, as if it were a feature.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think people might be misinterpreting the levels that I'm speaking of. The B-52 is an EXTREMELY loud headphone amp, capable of pushing cans quite a bit further than most. I never listen to it at half level unless it is a really quiet recording. If I were to do so, I would have to strain to hear the hiss, and it would only be audible during silent sections. The hiss is very obvious at full blast, but I'd be willing to bet that the B-52's full blast is three or four times as loud as most headphone amps (it certainly is much louder than my HeadRoom Balanced Desktop). Full blast on a B-52 is immediate hearing damage.

 This is about an audio obsessive. 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out. But I'm looking for perfection, and I am a firm believer in low level details being the heart of music reproduction._

 


 There is no way the B52 is 3-4x louder than most headamps. You likely have more voltage gain and a louder output lower on the volume control. But, at some point the amp will clip well before you max out the volume control. The amp with less voltage gain will go farther on the volume control before clipping and sound essentially the same loudness at their respective peak power outputs; before clipping.

 The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently?

 The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nick_Charles pretty much covered 1 better than I could. 

 2. Absolutely not! Patent protects the inventor's invention, if the invention is garbage, the garbage is protected. There doesn't have to be proof of it working anywhere. Unfortunately, many people think it means something, so you will always see "Patented Design" on many products, as if it were a feature._

 

Digital noise reduction compound? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Ferrite beads will filter out RF noise and dull the top end .... but unfortunately takes much of the high frequency extension with it.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no way the B52 is 3-4x louder than most headamps. You likely have more voltage gain and a louder output lower on the volume control. But, at some point the amp will clip well before you max out the volume control. The amp with less voltage gain will go farther on the volume control before clipping and sound essentially the same loudness at their respective peak power outputs; before clipping.

 The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently?

 The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise._

 

If this is the case, why would the problem be corrected by changing cords?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If this is the case, why would the problem be corrected by changing cords?_

 

No idea. But, IMO, what he is describing is not digital noise. He should unhook the amp from the cd player IC's and turn the volume full up. If he hears hiss that is tube rush. At this point we cant even be sure where the hiss is coming from.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

The internet is a fantastic place.

 You can put up hypothesis worth the next nobel-price in physics while not even owning a DMM. Amazing!


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The digital noise reduction compound is patented. I'm not a patent lawyer, but doesn't there have to be some evidence that it does what it says to get a patent?_

 

I'm not a patent attorney, but here's a little info:

 Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.

 Design patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new, original, and ornamental design for an article of manufacture.

 The nature and purpose of patents is not necessarily to prove or disprove anything, but to protect intellectual property. The two words that tend to stick out in the legal definition are "novel" and "un-obvious". They don't have much to do with "scientific validity".

 and for $hits and giggles, here's one of Shunyata's patents:

United States Patent: 6545213

 Kind of interesting - its a similar idea to the VD cables that are so entertainingly lambasted 'round here, but using some specific piezoelectric and ferrous materials in a little different configuration.

 as far as the original topic: I'd be interested to hear your opinions on what a PC with a lifted ground would do, or a shield tied to ground at the wall vs. at the player; if you hear any differences.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently?

 The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise._

 

That's what I though originally (about the tubes causing the noise) but it only happens with the CD player.

 As to my "digital noise" thing... you may be describing what I'm talking about. If I remember what Ray told me, it was that CDs have extremely noisy op-amps. I assume that's digital, but I'm not an engineer. The op-amp issue is what the Shunyata attempts to correct.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Digital noise reduction compound? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ferrite beads will filter out RF noise and dull the top end .... but unfortunately takes much of the high frequency extension with it._

 

Yep, and this is why Shunyata says they don't use ferrite.


----------



## vcoheda

whatever the source of the noise, it seems that the power cord has lessened it. this aligns with my belief that power cords filter and ICs adjust tone. they don't seem to do anything more or less. but to say that they do nothing is absurd to anyone who has spent a lot of time with different types and levels of gear.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what I though originally (about the tubes causing the noise) but it only happens with the CD player.

 As to my "digital noise" thing... you may be describing what I'm talking about. If I remember what Ray told me, it was that CDs have extremely noisy op-amps. I assume that's digital, but I'm not an engineer. The op-amp issue is what the Shunyata attempts to correct._

 

The noisy op amps are almost assuredly the cd players ANALOG output stage.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise._

 

Even the final output noise (analog) on a decent CD player is pretty damn low. The Linn isn't the quietest player in the world perhaps but it manages an SNR of about 108db. By comparison an amp can be a lot noisier, the spec for the B-52 states and SNR of 90db, which is actually pretty damn quiet and inaudible in all but extreme situations, but that is 8x the noise level of the CD player, so any noise from the CD player would be easily swamped by the noise from the amp.


----------



## sejarzo

So the thread titled *"That night and day thing the cable skeptics fear..." *started here:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've found it... the holy grail of power cables, one that makes a difference so audible a semi-deaf person could hear it! .... You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't be the only person here who knows about the digital noise thing, am I?_

 

Paused here:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Maybe others have this hiss, but it is so quiet unless you crank your amp that they just never noticed it._

 

And now it's somewhere around here:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I wouldn't say there was a night and day change in actual performance during normal listening, although there seemed to be a small amount. _


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even the final output noise (analog) on a decent CD player is pretty damn low. The Linn isn't the quietest player in the world perhaps but it manages an SNR of about 108db. By comparison an amp can be a lot noisier, the spec for the B-52 states and SNR of 90db, which is actually pretty damn quiet and inaudible in all but extreme situations, but that is 8x the noise level of the CD player, so any noise from the CD player would be easily swamped by the noise from the amp._

 

I agree. My first guess would be the amp itself. That is why I asked inf he changed tubes recently. If he has ruled this out the cd players output stage is my second guess. I think something is being missed as a phono stage universally has higher gain and more noise than a cd player.

 One thing I just thought of is .... where are the cd players IC's located in relation to the power cord .... and were the IC's or past power cord shielded. The IC's from the cd player to the amp could be picking up power supply hum from the other power cord whereas the new power cord has a different path or is shielded.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IThe IC's from the cd player to the amp could be picking up power supply hum from the other power cord whereas the new power cord has a different path or is shielded._

 

Yes, but the OP insists that the problem is Hiss not hum.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The noisy op amps are almost assuredly the cd players ANALOG output stage._

 

Right, but apparently the type of noise I'm referring to is endemic to digital players. That's what Ray told me, that's what Shunyata and many other cable makers say, and that's (again, apparently) what was cured.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the thread started here:





 Paused here:



 And now it's somewhere around here:









_

 

Just goes to show that taking things out of context is a great tool
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 My original point stands--I am asserting a night and day reduction in whatever you guys want to call the low level hiss on my CD player, which is a change in sound due to a power cord, which is supposedly impossible. I NEVER said that this made a night and day sound in the music itself. That is a red herring.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right, but apparently the type of noise I'm referring to is endemic to digital players. That's what Ray told me, that's what Shunyata and many other cable makers say, and that's (again, apparently) what was cured._

 

I dont see how that is possible and I believe cables do sound different.

 Have you tried maxing the volume with the amp alone and no connection to any source?

 What gain tube are you using?

 Does the new power cord lay/ follow the same physical route as the old one?

 Have you lifted the ground on the cd player to rule out a ground loop?


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right, but apparently the type of noise I'm referring to is endemic to digital players. That's what Ray told me, that's what Shunyata and many other cable makers say, and that's (again, apparently) what was cured._

 

But your CD player really does have a very very low measured noise levels and it matters not how this low level noise gets output, whether it comes from opamps or digital circuitry is irrelevant, the measured noise levels on your CD player are around - 108db, by any rational criteria that is very quiet and objectively much quieter than your amp, unless your CD player is faulty or some external force is interfering with it big time, the noise from your CD player will be dwarfed by the noise from your amp. Do you have any strangely exotic ICs ?


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whatever the source of the noise, it seems that the power cord has lessened it. this aligns with my belief that power cords filter and ICs adjust tone. they don't seem to do anything more or less. but to say that they do nothing is absurd to anyone who has spent a lot of time with different types and levels of gear._

 

There has been something called an "electron pool" that can be enhanced for some components that do not have large ground planes. I have read about small devices that attach to each input and output connected to the ground side just to provide for a larger "electron pool." This apparently does have some effect on those devices with smaller ground planes. Power cables that are design in certain ways can add to the default device ground plane. 

 I could provide links to these discussions but I think few hear actually want to understand anything about power cables anyway, at least the Flat Earthers don't.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just goes to show that taking things out of context is a great tool
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 My original point stands--I am asserting a night and day reduction in whatever you guys want to call the low level hiss on my CD player, which is a change in sound due to a power cord, which is supposedly impossible. I NEVER said that this made a night and day sound in the music itself. That is a red herring._

 

So why did you title the thread "That night and day thing the cable skeptics fear... " and then say it doesn't make a night and day difference in the music?


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My original point stands--I am asserting a night and day reduction in whatever you guys want to call the low level hiss on my CD player, which is a change in sound due to a power cord, which is supposedly impossible. I NEVER said that this made a night and day sound in the music itself. That is a red herring._

 

I really think at this point that we need measurements to support this night and day reduction in low level hiss, are we talking a 6db drop , a 12db drop or a 1db drop , a 0.5db drop ? A 6db drop may be worth bothering with perhaps a 1db less so and a 0.5db drop pretty pointless.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....... at least the Flat Earthers don't._

 

If all one depended on was his own eyes, he would indeed believe the Earth was flat.

 It took scientific inquiry and greater understanding of reality to determine that virtually every human's long-standing perception of the Earth as being flat was in error.

 To skeptics, it's the believers (I'm certainly not saying that you're one of them) who steadfastly refuse to learn or accept any basics whatsoever of electricity....and depend strictly upon their ears, much like people in the past only depended upon their eyes vis-a-vis the shape of the Earth.....that are the Flat Earthers.

 It's all relative, just like voltage.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but the OP insists that the problem is Hiss not hum._

 

Yeah, I was a musician using amplifiers for long enough to recognize a hum. That's not what it is. I'm positive it's some kind of interference.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So why did you title the thread "That night and day thing the cable skeptics fear... " and then say it doesn't make a night and day difference in the music?_

 

This is aimed at are the people who say "Power cords cannot possibly make any difference in sound." Due to this belief, they stop listening to reason. We can debate the level of difference that it makes; I'm just trying to establish that it makes SOME difference. I think this scares some people who have HUGE emotional investments in what they call "skepticism" (I actually believe skepticism is very healthy), but is actually dogmatism. 

 NIGHT--low levels of interference when turned up high enough
 DAY--no levels of interference when turned up the same amount


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, if it's dependent on the volume setting, I expect the noise source to be upstream from the volume control._

 

Could be a noisy preamp, but most likely it's a ground issue.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do I get a selective ground loop that only affects one component?_

 

Ground loops are very difficult to trace. They can be the effect of combinations of units, not just any particular unit. Turntables and equalizers are the most frequent culpret though. Sometimes you have to ground the unit causing the problem. Sometimes grounding the amp will solve it. Get a clean ground wire and touch it to the chassis of several of your components and see if the noise goes away.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is aimed at are the people who say "Power cords cannot possibly make any difference in sound."_

 

Who said that? A defective power cord that shorts out can add static. An improperly grounded one can add all kinds of noise.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## earwicker7

Wow, people are really insistent about this being a ground issue
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Again, I'm going to default to what a guy who makes amps for a living told me. He could have easily said "You have a ground issue" or whatever. Instead, the first thing he said when I described it to him was that he knew the sound I was speaking of, and it's noisy digital op-amps. He took me through all the steps you suggested and I determined he was right. I do think he thought I was anal, but he seemed to think it was a genuine issue.

 This was never an issue of something like a ground loop, which is, IMO, something bad enough to ruin the experience of listening to music. It was something that I just accepted (like I accept a bit of hiss on vinyl) as a fault of CD players until I saw an ad for the Shunyata cord. Turns out I can try it for 30 days and return it if I don't like it. I've dealt with Music Direct and I know their "no questions asked" policy is rock solid; they've never complained about me returning stuff and don't try to talk me into just switching to another product.

 I tried the product, and it did exactly what it said... reduce noise on digital equipment.

 Wow.


----------



## sejarzo

OK, now I think I've got it.

 A multiformat audio disc player that lists for $7495 is unfortunately designed so that any non-defective standard power cable somehow allows power mains interference to create a hiss on the analog outputs that a user fears might obscure low-level detail, and that doesn't get better with other power cables, but hey.......it only takes an extra $1600 investment in the right power cable to take care of the problem!

 Thank goodness most of us don't have those issues with sub-$500 players, or sub-$200 USB DAC's and headamp, because we'd be pretty sore about it.

 Wow, indeed.


----------



## Sovkiller

I don't know what the source of noise is but my amp is dead quiet at any volume, my hepadhone amp is dead quiet as well using any DVD/CD player here, I have like three here (actually two, the third is a crappy Philips that I use to watch movies at bed and is horribly noisy)


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ This is aimed at are the people who say "Power cords cannot possibly make any difference in sound." Due to this belief, they stop listening to reason._

 

Absolutely not. We do get tired listening to someone who has a perception or impression of a difference that goes on and on simply explaining *that* the perception exists, but stops there......and neither formulates a reasonable hypothesis as to *why* the difference exists, nor conducts an objective test to prove *why* the difference exists.

 Truth be told, without such an approach used by scientists and engineers to weed out what really works and what only seems to work--and then understand why it works--you'd be lucky to be listening to music played from a wax cylinder with a steel pin.

 But hey, at least then we'd not be having this debate.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NIGHT--low levels of interference when turned up high enough
 DAY--no levels of interference when turned up the same amount_

 

Hardly night and day.

 This is an honest question, no hidden agenda or anything......you have all that gear in your sig, but don't own a $7 DMM to do something as simple as check continuity (there is actually an unbelievably capable one on sale at Harbor Freight for $4 right now)....why not?


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 and for $hits and giggles, here's one of Shunyata's patents:

United States Patent: 6545213
_

 

How did you find this patent? That's very good work on finding it. Because the assignee is not Shunyata, I tried searching Shunyata in the assignee field and couldn't get any result. 

 Do they have any other patents of interest?


----------



## Michael415

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How did you find this patent? That's very good work on finding it. Because the assignee is not Shunyata, I tried searching Shunyata in the assignee field and couldn't get any result. 

 Do they have any other patents of interest?_

 

Their website lists all their patents by number.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How did you find this patent? That's very good work on finding it. Because the assignee is not Shunyata, I tried searching Shunyata in the assignee field and couldn't get any result. 

 Do they have any other patents of interest?_

 

Was this patent ever granted, to file for a patent is one thing, and to get it is another, all I see there is that they filed an application for the patent, but I could not find any place where is says it was granted...It is a little confusing though...


----------



## sejarzo

That is indeed a granted patent that three subsequent patents reference.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is indeed a granted patent that three subsequent patents reference._

 


 OK...


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, people are really insistent about this being a ground issue
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Again, I'm going to default to what a guy who makes amps for a living told me. He could have easily said "You have a ground issue" or whatever. Instead, the first thing he said when I described it to him was that he knew the sound I was speaking of, and it's noisy digital op-amps. He took me through all the steps you suggested and I determined he was right. I do think he thought I was anal, but he seemed to think it was a genuine issue.

 This was never an issue of something like a ground loop, which is, IMO, something bad enough to ruin the experience of listening to music. It was something that I just accepted (like I accept a bit of hiss on vinyl) as a fault of CD players until I saw an ad for the Shunyata cord. Turns out I can try it for 30 days and return it if I don't like it. I've dealt with Music Direct and I know their "no questions asked" policy is rock solid; they've never complained about me returning stuff and don't try to talk me into just switching to another product.

 I tried the product, and it did exactly what it said... reduce noise on digital equipment.

 Wow.




_

 

Are you familiar with the _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy? It's what lets you argue that water causes cancer because everyone who has cancer has had water at some time. Just because a ground loop was eliminated after changing a cable does not necessarily mean that the cable solved it. There are other factors involved.

 You're probably dealing with a grounding issue of some type. Why not try dealing with it directly, as opposed to spending $1,800?

 Patents don't necessarily mean that something works. Take a look at all the ones for quack medicine and other pseudoscience. The examiners mostly judge on whether the application violates prior art; not so much that the device does what is claimed.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


 Originally Posted by yotacowboy 

 and for $hits and giggles, here's one of Shunyata's patents:

United States Patent: 6545213 
 

That patent, if valid, would seem to indicate that another company with PCs being ripped apart by kitties, seems to be in violation of said patent... unless of course they licensed it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To the OP's problem and solution: it is my belief that if a PC makes a difference, I would suspect there are issues with the PSU of the piece of equipment in question. The "noisy digital opamps" is a cop out. Proper application of bypassing and ground plane design, paying attention to loop lengths on the PCB and ground current return paths can remove this as an issue. Reference http://www.tentlabs.com/Components/X...decoupling.pdf for one example of an excellent article on the subject.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is an honest question, no hidden agenda or anything......you have all that gear in your sig, but don't own a $7 DMM to do something as simple as check continuity (there is actually an unbelievably capable one on sale at Harbor Freight for $4 right now)....why not?_

 

Because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 What is this thing, why do I need one, and why is this the first time anyone has mentioned it in the 20 years I've been buying high-end equipment?

 Honest question, no agenda


----------



## earwicker7

A couple of questions for the people who have dead quiet amps. These are questions based on genuine curiousity; I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

 Do you guys live in houses? I'm in an apartment complex... a really big apartment complex. I've got a feeling that a lot of the interference I'm dealing with has something to do with the fact that I'm sharing electricity with (guessing) four to five hundred people.

 Do you guys live in cities? I'm in the Los Angeles area, and I'm (literally) next door to the Burbank Power Plant. Again, looking at this as an interference issue, I can't see how being near to so many TV and radio stations and cell phone relays and a power station that supplies electricity to tens of thousands of people, etc., can be a good thing.

 Also, and this one is to everyone, not just the people who are lucky enough to not have to deal with my (perceived) interference issues... do you guys believe that resolving systems have bad sides to them? It seems to me that many people believe that high-end equipment should be perfect. I'm of the opinion that holding up a microscope to your system is going to have both great aspects (it is an amazing feeling to be able to hear stuff you won't hear on non-resolving systems) and bad aspects (it doesn't gloss over ANY problems... if you have issues, you will hear them). My issue happens to be (I think) that my super sensitive CP player op-amps pick up on the massive loads of Los Angeles interference and my super sensitive amps and super sensitive cans amplify this interference so that I notice it. I stress "notice"... it's not something that would be an issue to some people. But it's there, and this cable made it go away. The stock cable didn't, the Cardas cable (I actually have two models, and neither address the problem) didn't, but somehow the Shunyata does.

 Anyways, these are in the interest of genuine debate, so please be nice.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 What is this thing, why do I need one, and why is this the first time anyone has mentioned it in the 20 years I've been buying high-end equipment?

 Honest question, no agenda
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He's talking about a digital multimeter. It measures resistance, capacitance, and many other electrical properties. Some even test solid state devices and measure temperature. They're useful for learning what's going on in a circuit.

 For example, when you build an amp, you can use your meter to measure the B+ at various checkpoints in the circuit. If the reading is wrong, you go back and check your wiring. If you don't get a reading at all, you can start taking measurements at the transformer and slowly work through the circuit until you find what went wrong. Here, you can use a meter to hunt down a ground loop. Once you find where it is, you can correct it and the hiss will go away.

 Since you like high-end stuff, Fluke (arguably) makes the best. Here's multimeters on their site:

http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fl...keUnitedStates

 You might also want to look into an oscilloscope. It displays the waveform of electricity. Most of them are dual trace these days, so you could overlay the waveform out of your electrical socket over the waveform from the power cord. That way, you can see if the power cord changes the waveform of the electricity. The really nice oscilloscopes have memory, so you could save the waveforms of a dozen power cords and compare them to each other.

 High-end audio doesn't really cater to DIY types and people who like to hack on electronics. When you've built and repaired dozens of pieces of tube gear, you tend to balk at someone asking $5,500 for tubes on a PCB, especially when you know the manufacturer probably has $700-$800 of parts in there. The people who sell at audio boutiques know this, too. Most of them aren't hot about DIY, since people who do tend to ask a lot of questions about what's inside and have a pretty good knowledge of prices.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That patent, if valid, would seem to indicate that another company with PCs being ripped apart by kitties, seems to be in violation of said patent... unless of course they licensed it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's (at least according to Shunyata) not the same stuff. They make a point of not using ferrite materials, which is what I believe the kitty ate.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_High-end audio doesn't really cater to DIY types and people who like to hack on electronics. When you've built and repaired dozens of pieces of tube gear, you tend to balk at someone asking $5,500 for tubes on a PCB, especially when you know the manufacturer probably has $700-$800 of parts in there. The people who sell at audio boutiques know this, too. Most of them aren't hot about DIY, since people who do tend to ask a lot of questions about what's inside and have a pretty good knowledge of prices._

 

Valid point. On the other hand, DIY doesn't really work for people like me with zero knowledge of electricity (I was able to not kill myself when I changed the sockets that are feeding my system) and too little time to build there own stuff. Dead and out of time hurts my head


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, people are really insistent about this being a ground issue_

 

If you are dead certain that it isn't a ground issue- and that the noise is coming from your CD player and the cable is filtering out the noise, then two things are true:

 1) Your CD player has a noisier than normal output.

 2) Your cable is attenuating the high frequencies.

 Neither of those things are good. If it was me and that was the case, I would ditch the CD player and get one that's quiet. When nothing is playing, you should be able to turn up the volume without noise. It's like that with the Macbook I use as my source. Using a deliberately colored cable to act as a noise filter is an extremely inefficient way of dealing with the problem, particularly at the price point you are talking about. A cable that filters out hiss is probably also filtering out your other high frequencies as well.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

I live in NoHo, and I haven't had problems in my apartment, but I had a really hard time with noise at my old office. I moved a xerox machine across the office and it didn't help at all. Finally, I grounded my preamp instead of my equalizer and the noise went away.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A couple of questions for the people who have dead quiet amps. These are questions based on genuine curiousity; I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

 Do you guys live in houses? I'm in an apartment complex... a really big apartment complex. I've got a feeling that a lot of the interference I'm dealing with has something to do with the fact that I'm sharing electricity with (guessing) four to five hundred people.

 Do you guys live in cities? I'm in the Los Angeles area, and I'm (literally) next door to the Burbank Power Plant. Again, looking at this as an interference issue, I can't see how being near to so many TV and radio stations and cell phone relays and a power station that supplies electricity to tens of thousands of people, etc., can be a good thing.

 Also, and this one is to everyone, not just the people who are lucky enough to not have to deal with my (perceived) interference issues... do you guys believe that resolving systems have bad sides to them? It seems to me that many people believe that high-end equipment should be perfect. I'm of the opinion that holding up a microscope to your system is going to have both great aspects (it is an amazing feeling to be able to hear stuff you won't hear on non-resolving systems) and bad aspects (it doesn't gloss over ANY problems... if you have issues, you will hear them). My issue happens to be (I think) that my super sensitive CP player op-amps pick up on the massive loads of Los Angeles interference and my super sensitive amps and super sensitive cans amplify this interference so that I notice it. I stress "notice"... it's not something that would be an issue to some people. But it's there, and this cable made it go away. The stock cable didn't, the Cardas cable (I actually have two models, and neither address the problem) didn't, but somehow the Shunyata does.

 Anyways, these are in the interest of genuine debate, so please be nice._

 

I live in a house with good grounding. There are no big transmitters nearby, but still have cell towers in the area and a repeater about 2 miles away. I don't usually run the audio gear with the amateur radio gear, but I've been OK putting out 50W-100W of RF on 6m, and 5-20W on 2m and 440.

 If you're concerned about RFI coming in over the power lines, you can head south on the 110 to:

 Torrance Electronics
 1545 West Carson Street
 Torrance, CA 90501

 They're open 10-3 on Saturdays. If you go in and turn right at the second aisle, you'll see a bunch of RF filters in a box on the floor on the right side. They're $3 and take the RF hash off your line. I like to use these in my audio projects. I don't deny that RF causes problems, but you don't need an expensive cable. A $3 filter will take care of it. You can also order them from Mouser, Digikey, etc. for about the same price.

 RF is also transmitted just like radio waves, which it is. The only way to keep it out of a room is to build a Faraday cage, but that's pretty extreme. ERS paper (which does work, by the way, but I am skeptical of the extent some take it to) and other shielding will block it. I like to build in aluminum enclosures, since it offers good shielding.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are dead certain that it isn't a ground issue- and that the noise is coming from your CD player and the cable is filtering out the noise, then two things are true:

 1) Your CD player has a noisier than normal output.

 2) Your cable is attenuating the high frequencies.

 Neither of those things are good. If it was me and that was the case, I would ditch the CD player and get one that's quiet. When nothing is playing, you should be able to turn up the volume without noise. It's like that with the Macbook I use as my source. Using a deliberately colored cable to act as a noise filter is an extremely inefficient way of dealing with the problem, particularly at the price point you are talking about. A cable that filters out hiss is probably also filtering out your other high frequencies as well.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

As to 1... it did the same thing with my Opus 21. I guess it's possible that two CD players that are renowned for their quality have problems, but I don't think it's likely.

 As to 2... which cable are you referring to? Again, three cables (stock, Cardas Twinlink and Cardas Quadlink) had the same issue.

 As to your point about filtering out the high frequencies... well, here's how Shunyata puts it. They say it will filter out noise at the expense of dynamic range. Frankly, I didn't notice any dynamic issues, but I wasn't using any meters. I paid a lot of attention to the high frequencies as I honestly expected the same thing; the really high frequencies seem to be a little more clear. My opinion is that they are freed up by not having to compete with the interference.

 Overall, I'm happy with the tone of the skeptics on this thread... there's an openess I haven't seen on the cable forum for a while. That's a great thing... there is dialogue, not ranting. I like it
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is aimed at are the people who say "Power cords cannot possibly make any difference in sound." Due to this belief, they stop listening to reason. We can debate the level of difference that it makes; I'm just trying to establish that it makes SOME difference. I think this scares some people who have HUGE emotional investments in what they call "skepticism" (I actually believe skepticism is very healthy), but is actually dogmatism. 

 NIGHT--low levels of interference when turned up high enough
 DAY--no levels of interference when turned up the same amount_

 

And I still maintain it's your setup. I've got my CD player plugged into my Receiver. Both are mid-consumer, neither is "stellar". I'm using the Receiver's AC out jacks for the CD player, its speaker outputs, and its headphone jack. Boy, if there was ever potential for a ground loop, I'd have it.

 Turn the dial to my CD player (which is on). Turn the volume not just all the way to 0, but overdriving to +16dB (the receiver's max). This is so loud that I can hear the clicks of the variable resistor moving as I turn the volume up. But then....silence. Not the slightest bit of hiss in the speakers. Plug in the RS-1 (which are quite sensitive)....not a hiss. Mind you, if I started playing music right now I'd wake the neighbors with the speakers and probably blow the RS-1 drivers. And I get....nothing. With a generic power strip plugged into my wall. Digital hiss indeed.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As to 2... which cable are you referring to?_

 

The one that is filtering out the noise. Assuming a cable is designed to filter out noise, odds are it is filtering out signal too. I would try my darndest to eliminate the source of the noise before resorting to filtering it out.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 My issue happens to be (I think) that my super sensitive CP player op-amps pick up on the massive loads of Los Angeles interference and my super sensitive amps and super sensitive cans amplify this interference so that I notice it. I stress "notice"... it's not something that would be an issue to some people. But it's there, and this cable made it go away. The stock cable didn't, the Cardas cable (I actually have two models, and neither address the problem) didn't, but somehow the Shunyata does.

 Anyways, these are in the interest of genuine debate, so please be nice._

 

I have a dead quiet output on my CD player. I haven't tried all my CD players. However, I do have problem on open inputs (i.e. unconnected inputs). The noise is caused by high impedance (i.e. open) picking up all the interference. You can try and verify this by unconnecting the CD player from the amp.

 Of course this does not explain the noise you are hearing with a connected active CD player. But let me first explain the turned off CD player. A turned off player presents a low iimpedance input to the amp, so it is dead quiet.

 However, in your case, I speculate that you must be using a balanced input from the Linn to the B-52. The balanced input presents a 600 ohm input impedance and which might pick up just enough noise after amplification to be audible. Balanced connection are good in taking out differential noise but not common mode noise (the noise from the ground). The Linn actually has a chasis ground in the back for you to connect to a ground for this specific purpose (kind of like the ground pin for your phono player).

 I have no explanation for why the Shunyata works and others don't without taking a look and do some measurement. My speculation is the shielding either create extra shielding or extra grounding. I did not have time to download Shunyata's construction from the patent office. IMO, what you're hearing has more to do with common mode ground noise than ground loop.

 If this is the case, a shielded hospital cord will also do the job. I think a lot of people in this forum use them and they are relatively inexpensive. I think you should give it a try.

 I think most people has a dead quiet input use singled ended connection. i.e. there is no extra ground.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's (at least according to Shunyata) not the same stuff. They make a point of not using ferrite materials, which is what I believe the kitty ate._

 

In their patent description, they actually described it as a ferro-electric material. But at the bottom of the patent, they also said it's a variation of silicon dioxide. My guess is they are using ferrosilicon.


----------



## spyder187

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently?_

 

Tube rush was what I was thinking as well. However, if the Shunyata goes on the CD player, then not sure how that could be connected. 

 The type of sound he seems to describe could very well be tube rush though.


----------



## sejarzo

Re the DMM.......

 Everybody makes mistakes, like possibly running over a cable with a desk chair caster (which is why I need to shorten my HD650 cable.....) Or maybe that you notice that simply moving a cable causes a little bit of static/noise.

 If you wanted to be sure that there isn't a short between the signal and ground conductors, you simply check the resistance between them with the cable disconnected. It should be infinite. Next, you check the signal and ground conductors end to end, the resistance should be zero, no matter how you flex or bend the cable. 

 I also make my own interconnects, and I always check them to be absolutely certain there are solid connections and no shorts before I put them in the system.

 Also, it is wise to check sources to be sure that there is no DC voltage offset on their outputs before connecting them to a direct-coupled amp.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Valid point. On the other hand, DIY doesn't really work for people like me with zero knowledge of electricity (I was able to not kill myself when I changed the sockets that are feeding my system) and too little time to build there own stuff. Dead and out of time hurts my head
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorta off topic, but you obviously have some interest in the subject, so I would recommend you take a bit of time to learn about electricity. Buying a DMM is a good start. Even if you don't use it right away, it might come in handy some day when something isn't working properly.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ .... However, in your case, I speculate that you must be using a balanced input from the Linn to the B-52. The balanced input presents a 600 ohm input impedance and which might pick up just enough noise after amplification to be audible. Balanced connection are good in taking out differential noise but not common mode noise (the noise from the ground). 

 ... I think most people has a dead quiet input use singled ended connection. i.e. there is no extra ground._

 

Lots of misinformation there, sorry to say.....

 First, the input Z on the B-52 is 50 kohms, not 600 ohms. The output Z of the Linn might be 600 ohms, but their specs on the unit are ridiculously sparse. Believe it or not, Ray Samuels and I had a discussion about the reasons for the typical 47.1 or 50 kohm input Z on amps at the recent Chicago meet....and there is no way that any decent amp would present such a low input Z. Absolutely not.

 Next, the entire reason for being of balanced connections is to reject common mode noise, which is defined thusly:

 "Common mode noise couples onto each conductor of a perfectly balanced twisted-pair equally." 

 Common mode noise rejection is what allows some balanced connections to operate without a shield!

 Next, a problem does exist with respect to what is really connected to pin 1 of the XLR. Some devices connect signal ground to that pin, others connect chassis ground to that pin. The following info from Rane Audio makes a strong case that it should be chassis ground--because the purpose of the shield is (logically?) shielding.....not to provide a common signal ground, because that is superfluous to the proper operation of a balanced connection!

Grounding and Shielding Audio Devices

 Also, the potential problem with single ended connections that use a shield is that noise induced into the shield can modulate signal ground at the connection on either end. The only possible result is that single ended connections could be more impacted by interference than properly designed balanced connections.

 I'm thoroughly confused by your comment that implies balanced connections have an extra ground....or am I misinterpreting that?

 Another Rane Audio document that also is quite helpful in understanding the real differences between single-ended and balanced connections is here:

Sound System Interconnection


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... do you guys believe that resolving systems have bad sides to them? It seems to me that many people believe that high-end equipment should be perfect. I'm of the opinion that holding up a microscope to your system is going to have both great aspects (it is an amazing feeling to be able to hear stuff you won't hear on non-resolving systems) and bad aspects (it doesn't gloss over ANY problems... if you have issues, you will hear them)._

 

My personal belief is that High Fidelity kit has to be as sonically unobtrusive as possible, that it neither adds or takes away from what it is presented with. So a CD player should have a razor flat FR, an amp should have noise and distortion that is *humanly* inaudible, speakers/headphones are a bit of a special case, but at each stage where a signal is presented it should exit that stage fundamentally unchanged except for gain or format changes. So good recordings sound good and crappy recordings sound crappy, I have many crappy recordings and it sometimes can be an irritation. Just this week I replaced my entire Complete Bach Organ Works because the recordings were very noisy, I have some Solo lute CDs where the recording noise is highly noticeable. A Stereo system cannot actually improve sound at all _if you think about it in the terms above_, it can merely do more or less damage to the signal. 

 Some folks prefer to have a signature to the sound, that is fine too, it is a matter of personal preference and life would be quite uninteresting if we all felt the same.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A couple of questions for the people who have dead quiet amps. These are questions based on genuine curiousity; I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

 Do you guys live in houses? I'm in an apartment complex... a really big apartment complex. I've got a feeling that a lot of the interference I'm dealing with has something to do with the fact that I'm sharing electricity with (guessing) four to five hundred people.

 Do you guys live in cities? I'm in the Los Angeles area, and I'm (literally) next door to the Burbank Power Plant. Again, looking at this as an interference issue, I can't see how being near to so many TV and radio stations and cell phone relays and a power station that supplies electricity to tens of thousands of people, etc., can be a good thing.

 Also, and this one is to everyone, not just the people who are lucky enough to not have to deal with my (perceived) interference issues... do you guys believe that resolving systems have bad sides to them? It seems to me that many people believe that high-end equipment should be perfect. I'm of the opinion that holding up a microscope to your system is going to have both great aspects (it is an amazing feeling to be able to hear stuff you won't hear on non-resolving systems) and bad aspects (it doesn't gloss over ANY problems... if you have issues, you will hear them). My issue happens to be (I think) that my super sensitive CP player op-amps pick up on the massive loads of Los Angeles interference and my super sensitive amps and super sensitive cans amplify this interference so that I notice it. I stress "notice"... it's not something that would be an issue to some people. But it's there, and this cable made it go away. The stock cable didn't, the Cardas cable (I actually have two models, and neither address the problem) didn't, but somehow the Shunyata does.

 Anyways, these are in the interest of genuine debate, so please be nice._

 


 I live in an apartment building downtown in a midsized city. I don't think there is any major causes of interference in area that would affect my system outside the normal city type things. It is certainly possible that your area could negitively affect your system, of course, if you don't have problems, I wouldn't worry too much about it. 

 As far as revealing systems, Nick covered a lot of the technical aspects. It's sorta like broadcasting a song on a telephone to a friend. If you use one poor quality recording and a high quality recording, he probably cannot tell the difference. 

 One thing to add is the negitive psychological aspects of high-end audio. It's easy for a high end system to take a person _away_ from the music. The problem is, that we enjoy music, and we want the best possible experience from it. So we spend a lot of time adjusting, auditioning, and studing our hobby and less listening and enjoying. When problems arise, however minor they may be, we obsess over them and it's starts to be all we can hear. 

 If a set of cans doesn't have the bass response we would like and sound muddy boomy, all we hear is blosh, blosh, blosh. Where, if we were using a system we don't expect much from, we don't have to analyse; we can just listen.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lots of misinformation there, sorry to say.....

 First, the input Z on the B-52 is 50 kohms, not 600 ohms. The output Z of the Linn might be 600 ohms, but their specs on the unit are ridiculously sparse. Believe it or not, Ray Samuels and I had a discussion about the reasons for the typical 47.1 or 50 kohm input Z on amps at the recent Chicago meet....and there is no way that any decent amp would present such a low input Z. Absolutely not.

 Next, the entire reason for being of balanced connections is to reject common mode noise, which is defined thusly:

 "Common mode noise couples onto each conductor of a perfectly balanced twisted-pair equally." 

 Common mode noise rejection is what allows some balanced connections to operate without a shield!

 Next, a problem does exist with respect to what is really connected to pin 1 of the XLR. Some devices connect signal ground to that pin, others connect chassis ground to that pin. The following info from Rane Audio makes a strong case that it should be chassis ground--because the purpose of the shield is (logically?) shielding.....not to provide a common signal ground, because that is superfluous to the proper operation of a balanced connection!

Grounding and Shielding Audio Devices

 Also, the potential problem with single ended connections that use a shield is that noise induced into the shield can modulate signal ground at the connection on either end. The only possible result is that single ended connections could be more impacted by interference than properly designed balanced connections.

 I'm thoroughly confused by your comment that implies balanced connections have an extra ground....or am I misinterpreting that?

 Another Rane Audio document that also is quite helpful in understanding the real differences between single-ended and balanced connections is here:

Sound System Interconnection_

 

You are quite correct. I am less than precise in this description. The Rane link should be used as the standard reference. The common mode noise I am refering to is the ground noise feed through as the ground reference could differ and not the common mode noise pick up on the balanced pair cable. If you put a scope probe on the two different end of the cable ground. You might see the noise. And this noise is what I am referring to.

 The input impedance of the B-52 has to be high impedance but the output impedance of the Linn is 600 ohm (described in the owner manual). So when the CD player is active, the player presents a 600 ohm input impedance to the B-52. However when it is off, the B-52 see the nonisolated PN junction of the output amplifier which is zero. This is similar to putting a shorting plug on unused connector to reduce noise.

 The Rane link has very good illustration on all the correct grounding for balanced connection.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The input impedance of the B-52 has to be high impedance but the output impedance of the Linn is 600 ohm (described in the owner manual). So when the CD player is active, the player presents a 600 ohm input impedance to the B-52. However when it is off, the B-52 see the nonisolated PN junction of the output amplifier which is zero. This is similar to putting a shorting plug on unused connector to reduce noise.

 ._

 

The input impedance of the B-52 has to be high impedance but the output impedance of the Linn is 600 ohm (described in the owner manual). So when the CD player is active, the player presents a 600 ohm *output* impedance to the B-52's 50k ohm *input* impedence.


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## sejarzo

I'm an engineer who often must read technical docs for work that are not in my precise discipline or area of expertise. Without question, I've rarely read any other docs that presume little or no tech knowledge and within a few pages have conveyed so much so clearly as the papers on the Rane site.


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## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm an engineer who often must read technical docs for work that are not in my precise discipline or area of expertise. Without question, I've rarely read no other docs that presume little or no tech knowledge and within a few pages have conveyed so much so clearly as the papers on the Rane site._

 

Especially fig.4 and fig.5


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## 10068

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm an engineer who often must read technical docs for work that are not in my precise discipline or area of expertise. Without question, I've rarely read no other docs that presume little or no tech knowledge and within a few pages have conveyed so much so clearly as the papers on the Rane site._

 

What this sarcasm or said in seriousness? I can't tell


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sduibek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What this sarcasm or said in seriousness? I can't tell 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Definitely serious. Their documents are very helpful in understanding the differences between pro and consumer gear. Given that line is becoming more and more blurry, with the popularity of the Benchmark DAC-1, Apogee Mini-DAC, Lavry DA-10, down to the PreSonus Central Station and E-MU 0404 USB here, anyone considering using a pro audio device for consumer listening would do well to poke around that site and learn a few things.

 I just realized that I typed a word in error in that post...I meant to write that I rarely read _*any*_ other docs that were as good as the Rane info, not "rarely read *no* other docs".


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, in your case, I speculate that you must be using a balanced input from the Linn to the B-52. The balanced input presents a 600 ohm input impedance and which might pick up just enough noise after amplification to be audible. Balanced connection are good in taking out differential noise but not common mode noise (the noise from the ground). The Linn actually has a chasis ground in the back for you to connect to a ground for this specific purpose (kind of like the ground pin for your phono player)._

 

Bingo!

 I'm really curious about something now... to all of the people with the dead silence on your systems, are you using a fully balanced system? Everything in my system is balanced.


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## JohnFerrier

Balanced v non-balanced; or, tube v solid state? Balanced may have slightly lower (common mode) noise. However, tubes have higher (even harmonic) distortion and noise (than solid state). Some people like the "euphoric coloration." Which is what "tube rolling" is about.


 .


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo!

 I'm really curious about something now... to all of the people with the dead silence on your systems, are you using a fully balanced system? Everything in my system is balanced._

 

Nope mine is completelly single ended...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, not sure about that Linn you are using, I'm not familiar with the Linn line at all, but the one Nik has, according to them, they reco to use SE outputs over the balanced ones, as they are better than the balanced, it seems that what they use is an internal splitter to convert the SE signal from the DAC into balanced, so you have far more parts degrading the signal in that connection over the simple straight through SE...the balanced operation most of the times in those players are just to add versatility, in case you have balanced gear, and have to use it, but they are not fully balanced from the DAC out, so using balanced output on those sometimes is worst than the SE...


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## Uncle Erik

I came across this article on practical solutions to killing buzz/hum in audio. He discusses balanced applications, as well, so it might be useful here.

Kill Studio Hum and Buzz at the Source


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo!

 I'm really curious about something now... to all of the people with the dead silence on your systems, are you using a fully balanced system? Everything in my system is balanced._

 

You need to re-read my response to dvw's post that you quoted and my response to that. He effectively retracted the comment that you reference.

 Balanced systems, connected and working properly, have lower noise than single-ended systems. That, my friend, is the only reason that balanced systems were invented--to reduce noise.

 Also, it is good to note Sovkiller's response. One noted recording engineer who moderates a home recording forum says that in his studio, properly designed and wired, he uses single-ended connections whereever possible. Why? The internal signal path in a lot of recording gear is natively single-ended. In such units, there are bal-to-unbal circuits on the inputs and unbal-to-bal circuits on the outputs that exist solely to interface the units with other balanced gear. He says the extra circuitry contributes unnecessary noise and distortion, so why bother if you don't need to use balanced connections to reduce noise from interference?

 On the other hand, most DAC chips put out a differential signal, and often use a circuit that combines conversion to single-ended with the required filtering between the output of the chip and the analog outputs. Sometimes players/DAC's that have balanced outputs feed the output from the DAC chip itself to true balanced output circuits designed to drive balanced lines, and a parallel circuit then derives the single-ended output from the balanced outputs. One would need a schematic to be sure of what is in any particular unit with both types of output.


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## rsaavedra

I´ll only post a link to an analogy submitted not too long ago:

Analogy between power cord before a regulated power supply, and a water pipe before a regulated boiler system.


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## sejarzo

Excellent analogy.....I've often wondered how adding anything claimed to be additional filtration upstream of a properly designed PSU should have anything to do with noise at the other end of the device.


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## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You need to re-read my response to dvw's post that you quoted and my response to that. He effectively retracted the comment that you reference.
_

 

As I said before, I was less than precise, what I really mean to say in in this link.

http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/ece4391/noise_a.pdf

 Zs is directly proportional to noise pickup. In this case output impedance of the Linn. The reference is only a single ended model. But I think is good enough to show the effect of Zs. If Zs is close to zero, the noise will be limited. In the case of Linn, Zs will be half in a single ended configuration. 

 In a balance system, there is more than one ground. An improper connection will create more noise. The most precise description is in fig. 4 and 5 of the Rane reference. For the Linn, in the back of the player there is a connector for signal ground.

 I hoped this is a clearer post than my last one.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In a balance system, there is more than one ground. An improper connection will create more noise. The most precise description is in fig. 4 and 5 of the Rane reference. For the Linn, in the back of the player there is a connector for signal ground._

 

Sure, there are both chassis ground and signal ground, but as noted in the Rane info, they are generally connected at a single point somewhere inside the unit. It is important to note that Figure 4 shows what would be ideal, but most gear isn't built that way; pin 1 on most XLR outputs seems to be tied to signal ground, not chassis ground.

 The connection on the back of the Linn appears to be directly to chassis ground, not signal ground, because it doesn't appear to be insulated from the chassis. As far as I know, if a piece of gear uses a three-conductor power cable, then the case/chassis is generally tied to the earth/ground pin on that cable.

 In fact, this is what the Linn manual states re that connector:

 "*EARTH GROUND* For connecting the unit to an earthing terminal if no mains earth is available"

 That implies it's not meant at all to be used as a signal ground.

 All of that leads me to believe that pin 1 of the XLR in the Linn *is *connected to signal ground--the typical situation.


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## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, there are both chassis ground and signal ground, but as noted in the Rane info, they are generally connected at a single point somewhere inside the unit. It is important to note that Figure 4 shows what would be ideal, but most gear isn't built that way; pin 1 on most XLR outputs seems to be tied to signal ground, not chassis ground.

 The connection on the back of the Linn appears to be directly to chassis ground, not signal ground, because it doesn't appear to be insulated from the chassis. As far as I know, if a piece of gear uses a three-conductor power cable, then the case/chassis is generally tied to the earth/ground pin on that cable.

 In fact, this is what the Linn manual states re that connector:

 "*EARTH GROUND* For connecting the unit to an earthing terminal if no mains earth is available"

 That implies it's not meant at all to be used as a signal ground.

 All of that leads me to believe that pin 1 of the XLR in the Linn *is *connected to signal ground--the typical situation._

 

If all connections are connected correctly, then the amp should be dead quiet. If the noise is picked up from the source, how would a power cord make a different. My only theory is that somehow the Shunyata ground has create a ground reference that corrected a typical balanced system connection error. 

 The bottom line is whatever the reason is. I'm pretty sure it's measurable and traceable.


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## AudioCats

Does anybody know what kind of "sand" was used to stuff the garden hose?


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## spritzer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody know what kind of "sand" was used to stuff the garden hose?_

 

I have some older Power 3's and they had some ferrite powder in them. It's magnetic that's for sure so it isn't sand.


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## AudioCats

I am sure it is not the common aluminumoxide, and I kind of suspect the whole purpose of the "cat ate VD cable" thread is to squeeze VD to reveal the detail of that ferrite powder. Using ferrite powder is actually a smart idea. 

 Just checked McMaster.com for magnetic powder, they have some ultra-fine stuff for flaw detection, but that is $71/10 LB, which is way too much for experimenting a few cables with....


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## pompon

71$ for 10 lbs ... I think power 3 will have a good 2 lbs.

 15$ in part + 10-12$ for the powder. So 25-27$ in part + labor.

 Not to expansive to try in DIY and see what happening. After try a bigger gauge wire.


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## AudioCats

the problem is you will have to buy 10LB, plus shipping, if that material doesn't work well then it will be ~$80 down the drain....


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## pompon

Imagine how much tests the cables cie have to do to have something they think good ?

 Once they know how to build them they have to sell at high price to be able to stay in business. Peaple have trouble to understand that ... Cable cost 40$ in part and when they see cie sell them for 99$ they cry .. it's a steal ... 

 Take Adidas .. in "part" it's probably 1-2$ to do and they sell for 100$.


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## JustPhilbo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure it is not the common aluminumoxide, and I kind of suspect the whole purpose of the "cat ate VD cable" thread is to squeeze VD to reveal the detail of that ferrite powder. Using ferrite powder is actually a smart idea. 

 Just checked McMaster.com for magnetic powder, they have some ultra-fine stuff for flaw detection, but that is $71/10 LB, which is way too much for experimenting a few cables with...._

 

Except a rep from VD said in the original thread that the "sand" in the cord was common, iron based sand-blasting media. Available at pretty much any hardware store for next to nothing per bag.

 So, I'm pretty sure the higher priced magnetic powder would be overkill, but maybe not. YMMV.


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## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Imagine how much tests the cables cie have to do to have something they think good ?

 Once they know how to build them they have to sell at high price to be able to stay in business. Peaple have trouble to understand that ... Cable cost 40$ in part and when they see cie sell them for 99$ they cry .. it's a steal ... 

 Take Adidas .. in "part" it's probably 1-2$ to do and they sell for 100$. _

 

I don't necessarily think that the manufacturing cost of cables is why some decry the high price. Rather, they don't believe that the cables actually benefit from the increased manufacturing cost. I could put diamond studs all over a power cable and charge an arm and a leg for it. Sure it would cost quite a bit to make, but it won't do anything to the cost of the cable and most would consider it a ripoff.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I could put diamond studs all over a power cable and charge an arm and a leg for it. Sure it would cost quite a bit to make, but it won't do anything to the cost of the cable and most would consider it a ripoff._

 

For the prices of some cables, only *with* the diamonds it wouldn't be a rip-off


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## earwicker7

I don't think something that completely solved an interference issue (sorry, it's not a ground issue as some people keep insisting) is a rip off at around $1000 (if you include shipping) when my components are pretty close to $40,000. It's about 2.5% of the total value. I tried stock cables and two relatively cheap cables ($130 and $195) and the only thing that got rid of the interference is the Shunyata cable.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think something that completely solved an interference issue (sorry, it's not a ground issue as some people keep insisting) is a rip off at around $1000 (if you include shipping) when my components are pretty close to $40,000. It's about 2.5% of the total value. I tried stock cables and two relatively cheap cables ($130 and $195) and the only thing that got rid of the interference is the Shunyata cable._

 

If is is not a grounding issue, there is a possiblity that you have a problem with the power supply in your CDP. 

 Dispite outputing an signal, the CDP circuits run off of DC power. If the cord is actually making a difference, it is possible that you have a problem with the power supply or voltage regulator within the amp itself. 

 These (the ground loop, power supply) are IMO more likely causes of unwanted noise than some unexplainable, mystical effect of a powercord. The fact is the 'science' behind why power cords make a difference isn't proven, or completely accepted. In this case (and in most), I think it is more reasonable to look at what is known about electronics and their affect on signals before jumping to an unexplained phenomenon. 

 That said, nobody has the right (except possibly your wife) to tell you what you can spend your money on.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If is is not a grounding issue, there is a possiblity that you have a problem with the power supply in your CDP. 

 Dispite outputing an signal, the CDP circuits run off of DC power. If the cord is actually making a difference, it is possible that you have a problem with the power supply or voltage regulator within the amp itself. 

 These (the ground loop, power supply) are IMO more likely causes of unwanted noise than some unexplainable, mystical effect of a powercord. The fact is the 'science' behind why power cords make a difference isn't proven, or completely accepted. In this case (and in most), I think it is more reasonable to look at what is known about electronics and their affect on signals before jumping to an unexplained phenomenon. 

 That said, nobody has the right (except possibly your wife) to tell you what you can spend your money on._

 

That would make complete sense if it didn't also happen to the Opus 21. I'm personally convinced that a high resolution system will amplify the hell out of interference that might not show up on a middle of the road system. When I use my HeadRoom Desktop or my iPod, I miss out on a lot of the sweet details that show up in my main system, but I also get to gloss over the flaws (both in the music and system).

 By the way, when I wasn't single, my ex had zero say in what I spent... there was community money for bills, but she had her toy money and I had mine. It's the only way to live in a relationship, IMO
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'm personally convinced that a high resolution system will amplify the hell out of interference that might not show up on a middle of the road system._

 

Another fundamental misconception on the way amplifiers work.....why would a high end system "amplify the hell" out of interference and not do the same for music?

 Are you saying that your system has greater gain overall than a mid-fi rig?

 That can't be right. The same gain is applied to the entire input signal.....gain is simply a question of loudness, and for the most part, system gains are all in the same range, more or less.

 Are you saying that your system otherwise has a lower noise floor downstream of the CDP that allows you to hear the interference?

 Sorry, but even much lower priced gear is so quiet that one should be able to easily pick up on significant interference. I reiterate--my Marantz SA8001 or E-MU 0404 USB are dead quiet out of their internal headphone outputs or into a CK²III at full volume. No difference between max volume, minimum volume, or with the power off.

 Borrow or buy a DMM or continuity tester, and check if the ground pin on the plug of the $$$ power cable that "works" is connected to the corresponding terminal on the socket end. It might be that a shield in that cable is connected to the pin on the plug but not to the terminal in the socket, but that is sort of a long shot.


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## sejarzo

In lieu of getting a DMM or continuity tester (dang, over $40k in a rig, and no DMM......that's still hard for me to swallow!) here's another experiment to try to understand the reason for your observations:

 Connect a cheater plug to the end of the $$$ cord, and see if you note the same reduction in interference.

 You *do *have a cheater plug somewhere around, right, earwicker?


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Connect a cheater plug to the end of the $$$ cord, and see if you note the same reduction in interference.

 You *do *have a cheater plug somewhere around, right, earwicker?_

 

I was going to suggest this as well. Funny what a ground connection can do when present or absent. It's possible that the main audible difference, if any, between the "diamond" cable and the others is really the grounding scheme, not the shielding or anything else (wiring topology, materials, or what not.)

 Btw, shielding and grounding are well understood phenomena and there are very mature and robust practices in the electrical/electronics industry to deal with them. A cable with excellent shield and proper grounding can be really very affordable. There's little fancy engineering in them to pay high dollars for.


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## earwicker7

God, I give up. I provide pretty conclusive evidence that a power cable can indeed affect sound and instead of people saying "Wow, I didn't expect that, this is interesting!" and exploring the subject, it's the same old head in the sand response I expected. Instead of making this about what it obviously is (interference) the skeptics decide to proove that I'm wrong by telling me I have a problem I don't have. This is not a ground loop issue. Frankly, it's like telling a person who discovers a new type of engine coolant "But that can't work, it's a flat tire!"


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I provide pretty conclusive evidence_

 

Obviously you don't know what conclusive evidence really means.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Frankly, it's like telling a person who discovers a new type of engine coolant "But that can't work, it's a flat tire!"_

 

That's silly. What if the person really did have a flat tire? You don't know authoritatively that the power cable really did make a difference. That's why it's important, if not absolutely essential, to make sure that causation isn't established without clear warrant. I mean, what if it really was a problem that could've been solved with a cheaper solution? Why not view the posts as an opportunity to explore other possibilities, and possibly even save money? Your post sounds awfully like you're simply trying to push an agenda (power cables make a difference) instead of engaging in true discourse with other members.

 I'm not saying cables do or don't make a difference. However, there is something to be said about legitimate discourse. You assert that your problem isn't a ground loop, yet you haven't tried all of the solutions given by the members to ensure that it really isn't the case. To use your analogy, it seems much more in tune with the guy saying "look, my tire isn't flat!" without actually checking the psi of his tires with a tire-pressure-checker-tool (I have no ideas what they're called, even though I have one sitting in my garage).


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your post sounds awfully like you're simply trying to push an agenda (power cables make a difference) instead of engaging in true discourse with other members._

 

How can I? I want to talk about interference, they insist on talking about ground loops. It's silly.

 I'm just going to leave this thread, it's not worth the frustration.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_God, I give up. I provide pretty conclusive evidence that a power cable can indeed affect sound and instead of people saying "Wow, I didn't expect that, this is interesting!" and exploring the subject, it's the same old head in the sand response I expected. Instead of making this about what it obviously is (interference) the skeptics decide to proove that I'm wrong by telling me I have a problem I don't have. This is not a ground loop issue. Frankly, it's like telling a person who discovers a new type of engine coolant "But that can't work, it's a flat tire!"_

 

1) You provided anecdotal evidence, (give me numbers and graphs)

 that

 2) A bizarre (and slight) equipment noise problem that pretty much nobody else here suffers from ......and


 3) Is of unknown etiology, having dismissed several wild and untenable theories....and


 4) isnt actually a problem at all at sane listening levels for anyone

 can

 5) For no readily apparent reason be fixed by one power cord but not by others.

 Did I miss anything


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How can I? I want to talk about interference, they insist on talking about ground loops. It's silly._

 

But what if they're right? It seems somewhat egotistical at the very least to assert that you KNOW it's interference and not a ground loop unless you've conclusively ruled out grounding problems in the first instance (which you haven't unless you've tried a cheater plug at the very least).


----------



## sejarzo

OK, I just sent earwicker7 a PM explaining that my question re the cheater plug isn't trying to call it a ground issue whatsover. 

 Rather, it is simply to try and find where the shield on his cable is terminated.

 Seems to me that if the shield is only terminated on the plug side and not the player side, EMI could be shunted away from the player. Breaking that connection via a cheater plug would isolate the shield and make it ineffective (or at least much less effective.)

 I hope he sees the point.


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## PITTM

and a bargain at only $2k...


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) You provided anecdotal evidence, (give me numbers and graphs)

 that

 2) A bizarre (and slight) equipment noise problem that pretty much nobody else here suffers from ......and


 3) Is of unknown etiology, having dismissed several wild and untenable theories....and


 4) isnt actually a problem at all at sane listening levels for anyone

 can

 5) For no readily apparent reason be fixed by one power cord but not by others.

 Did I miss anything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

cliffnotes for the entire thread imo


----------

