# CEntrance HiFi-M8 with Michael Goodman - Head-Fi TV - CanJam @ RMAF (2012)



## jude

NOTE:  If you can't see the embedded video above, please CLICK HERE to see the video.​   
   
  In this episode of Head-Fi TV, I talk with Michael Goodman of CEntrance, at 2012 CanJam @ RMAF, about the latest product from CEntrance: the CEntrance HiFi-M8 portable DAC/amp!
   
   
  Products mentioned in the video:

   

 *CEntrance HiFi-M8* portable DAC/amp
   

   

  CEntrance HiFI-M8: CanJam at RMAF 2012 Coverage, Head-Fi TV_ _produced by Joseph Cwik and Jude Mansilla
   
   

  We will occasionally post Q&A episodes of Head-Fi TV.  If you want to submit any questions (or comments), you can do so via email to *tv@head-fi.org*.


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## IceClass

Interesting product with some seriously ugly looking controls. More cheap USB audio interface look than portable $700 jewel.
  Missing a 3.5mm line out and a digital out.
  Hope it sounds good.


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## mikemercer

The design is going through some changes since CanJam/RMAF.  One of the great things about Michael's view is that he takes feedback from users very seriously.  You guys gave him some fantastic feedback at the show and he is putting alot if it into action in the HiFi-M8.  So forget the actual prototype mock-up there, I know at least the back panel has changed.
   
  I wholly agree on the digital out.  AND: They're going to make it louder than the unit at CanJam.


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## vernz

Great review! Looking forward to seeing more videos about RMAF!!


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## elnero

I'm incredibly excited about the HiFi-M8, this is the type of audio product of been wanting for at least a couple of years now. It's been really fun and interesting seeing the development process, Michael has been updating a blog on a near daily basis as well as being very active in the HiFi-M8 thread in the Portable Sources forum here. The best part is Michael has been incredibly receptive to feedback given by members so there's going to potentially be a few variations available.
   
  On the rear panel you'll be able to choose between an iDevice input or optical. The optical input version is called the LX and is expected to be a bit cheaper.
   
  On the front panel there will be at least one other variation. Instead of the dual 3 pin XLR combo jacks it will have a 1/4" jack, an  1/8" combo headphone/optical output and a 4 pin XLR balanced.
   
  There's also been mention of a possible third front panel variation that is the same as just listed but replace the 4 pin XLR with RSA style balanced connector.


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## Chexxchexx

Super excited about this offering. Been loving the blog...Michael's strip tease for the audio community. Just wish I had some sense about the sound signature relative to 71-B/Intruder and RX Mk III. Needless to say, I'm in the camp hoping for the option with "RSA-style" and 1/8" connectors.


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## TheWuss

Been reading about this product, but had a "duh" moment when i heard it ponounced as "hifi mate.".


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## Angular Mo

Will this be one of the few Apple iDevice authorised devices that can take a digital signal from an iPhone, iPod, or iPad?  
   
  I power my iStreamer with a portable battery (not very portable.)


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## mikemercer

Quote: 





chexxchexx said:


> Super excited about this offering. Been loving the blog...Michael's strip tease for the audio community. Just wish I had some sense about the sound signature relative to 71-B/Intruder and RX Mk III. Needless to say, I'm in the camp hoping for the option with "RSA-style" and 1/8" connectors.


 
  I haven't spent much time w/ the HiFi-M8 (but like many peeps here know, it was one of the last projects I worked on w/ the CEntrance group) but after listening to it at CanJam (we all know its going thru changes as we've posted previously) w/ my Audeze LCD3's - I can say when comparing it to my RxMK3-B: It definitely has what I consider to be more of the CEntrance signature, which is close to no signature at all, rather, it's accurate.  Some people, for example, think something like this has "less bass", when its actually more of what I call "correct bass".  I think the CEntrance sound (on the DACport and DACmini CX for example) is a bit lean, but not in the way most people mean.  I prefer, for example, my personal audio to be a little bit on warmer side, w/ a black or dark sonic backdrop.  
   
  I LOVE my ALO RxMK3-B because it has tons of power, and the textural quality of the midrange is lush and rounded, without the low-end being overly exaggerated.  I felt the HiFi-M8 was definitely leaner, but its multi-purpose, (iDevice & computer DAC/hphone amp) so they have to compromise a little power I'm sure.  However, I do think Michael Goodman will figure out a way to squeeze every last bit of power he can out of that sucker.
   
  So, long-winder reply made short: Right now I think the RxMK3-B has alot more power, thus it sounds more dynamic to me.  AT THIS POINT!
  I can't wait to get the final product though - the HiFi-M8!  I'm waiting like a junkie for his fix!!


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## HeadphoneAddict

I enjoyed this at RMAF, and look forward to hearing the final version.


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## ExpatinJapan

Pre-order and excited.


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## eron

Quote: 





iceclass said:


> Missing a 3.5mm line out and a digital out.


 
  The final product would most likely have 3.5mm line out and digital out.
  Follow the development here: The Centrance HiFi M8 thread
  or on their blog.


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## xinghui0711

I thought that M8 dac/amp combo is very decent based on the listed features.
  XLR output is the major advantage of this unit in IMO.


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## Bojamijams

A line out would be nice... a digital out is pointless
  Quote: 





iceclass said:


> Interesting product with some seriously ugly looking controls. More cheap USB audio interface look than portable $700 jewel.
> Missing a 3.5mm line out and a digital out.
> Hope it sounds good.


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## MorbidToaster

Unfortunately this episode is way out of date. There have been a ton of new feature options and changes.
   
  If it sounds good this will be one of the most versatile and awesome devices out there. Knowing Centrance...it probably will.


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## mikemercer

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Unfortunately this episode is way out of date. There have been a ton of new feature options and changes.
> 
> If it sounds good this will be one of the most versatile and awesome devices out there. Knowing Centrance...it probably will.


 
  SO glad you think so!! That was our aim (when we started talking about the HiFi-M8 before it even had a name)!  We wanted to be the first to offer a battery-powered iDevice & computer DAC (all were one or the other at the time)!!  Feature set was a serious consideration, but what I love most about Michael Goodman's designs (I still rock my DACmini CX and PX as part of my *Audiophile Desktop System* w/ PRIDE!!) is that he goes after musicality and performance FIRST.  Everything else follows, and he follows that up well at all times.  The DACport was my portable reference DAC/head-amp for a couple years!  I still keep it on-hand in the office for reference against nu stuff.
   
  Like I said above - I'm waiting for a *HiFi-M8* like a junkie waiting for his daily dose in the vein!!!!
   
   

  the CEntrance ADS _(Audiophile Desktop System_) is the BEST portable desktop solution out there (desktop speaker & great h-phone amp solution), IMO!!
  W/ the custom Pelican case - it allows me to get my writing and consulting work done where-ever I go (pictured here at a B&B 
  in Northern Cali)!!!!


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## antberg

that's a brick i would like to be able to afford!


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## mgoodman

Big thanks to Jude for posting (and filming), to Michael Mercer for the contagious excitement, and to the head-fi community for the invaluable feedback. We are working through the holidays to put the finishing touches on this truly crowd-sourced product.  More info in the development blog, which has been and will continue to be updated daily, until product ships:
   
  http://centrance.com/products/new/blog
   
  Here is more on the product itself:
   
  http://centrance.com/products/hifi-m8/
   
  Michael


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## Zuqi

.


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## mosshorn

Hey Michael, would we be able to buy one of those shirts? ^_^


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## mrfcpa

Michael -
   
  Two questions:
   
  Will this actually work with the latest iPad? All manufacturer's appear to claim their amp/dac's work with the dock connector on the iPad but they do not unless using a generic codec. (The Predator by Ray Samuels is a perfect example of not working with iPad.)
   
  Also, when may I order one and from whom? (Todd the Vinyl Junkie advertises it on their website, but I'm sure they don't have it.)
   
  Would like to add Hifi-M8 and the new Woo Audio portable to my collection.


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## eron

Quote: 





mosshorn said:


> Hey Michael, would we be able to buy one of those shirts? ^_^


 
  The HiFi-M8 t-shirt is included free of charge I think!


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## zeinharis

Looking back to the earlier centrance's product such as the Dacport/LX and the Dacmini (the sound & the build quality), this HiFi-M8 is going to be phenomenal product. Can't wait for the HiFi-M8 to come out, definitly i'm going to purchase it no matter what the final design is going to be like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   





 to Mr.Michael


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## nk77

Definitely interested in this! I have only recently come to realise how much I love my DACmini (as suggested by someone prominent here on head-fi) and can't wait to hear more on this new product!


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## Ksef10

Quote: 





mosshorn said:


> Hey Michael, would we be able to buy one of those shirts? ^_^


 
  We can make this happen. Send me a message if you are interested.
  Quote: 





mrfcpa said:


> Michael -
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


 
  We have not tested it yet, but HiFi-M8 is supposed to work with all iProducts, including the newest iPhone/iPad.
   
  M8 is not shipping for several weeks still. Send an e-mail to HiFi-M8@centrance.com for more information.


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## Akula1321

Quick question about impedance selection. Why 1/2/10 as opposed to 1/10/120 for example? Since this is designed to drive tougher phones, wouldn't having a 120ohm option for IEC spec make sense for some of the top end German phones?

Also, is this the same potentiometer found in the DACport?


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## ExpatinJapan

akula1321 said:


> Quick question about impedance selection. Why 1/2/10 as opposed to 1/10/120 for example? Since this is designed to drive tougher phones, wouldn't having a 120ohm option for IEC spec make sense for some of the top end German phones?
> ?


LOL...wut?

Do you have some special 960ohm German headphones you really have to use on the go?

1/2/10 is just right.....and sensible for a portable/transportable device.

0.5/2/10 would be extra awesome though


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## Akula1321

expatinjapan said:


> LOL...wut?




No...no LOL, ROFL, or LMAO. 120 ohms is actually a 16 year old industry standard, unlike a 960 ohm fabrication. 300-600 ohm German phones w/ specific impedance curves are also quite real as well.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/162962-maximum-allowable-headphone-amp-output-impedance-2.html#post2502688


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## Akula1321

oops


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## mgoodman

Thanks for the link, we are investigating....


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## ExpatinJapan

Quote: 





akula1321 said:


> No...no LOL, ROFL, or LMAO. 120 ohms is actually a 16 year old industry standard, unlike a 960 ohm fabrication. 300-600 ohm German phones w/ specific impedance curves are also quite real as well.
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/162962-maximum-allowable-headphone-amp-output-impedance-2.html#post2502688


 
  I know it WAS an industry standard..... over 20 years and more ago.
   
  The headphone output impedance should be 1/8 of the headphone you are using. 4ohms device/source/amp headphone output for the usual 32ohm headphone/iems etc......Hence my quip about 960ohm headphones, 960 being 120x8.
   
  As a transportable device 1/2/10 is great, 1ohm (or even 0.5) is especially needed for multi driver IEMs and their severe fluctuations, 2ohm for the usual iems and basic headphones, 10 ohm for the larger 80ohms and above headphones.
   
  Even the link you posted seems to repeat over and over how 120ohms is redundant especially for portable devices and todays portable market, it being a standard defacto measurement when people  sat at home and listened with their large headphones on their special lazyboy chair, and how low output  impedance is the sensible and scientific way to go these days.
   
  even the large LCD-2 have an ohm of 50ohms, so 4ohms HPO would be about perfect for them, of course some like the HD600 have 300ohms and a HPO of 40ohm would suit them-but they arent really portable.
   
  One only has to go to the iriver AK100 thread and see the vitriol given to a player these days with even only 40ohms headphone output impedance.
   
  Heres a few recent players/amps and dacs and their headphone out impedances to compare where the industry standard is today
  http://monoadc.blog64.fc2.com/blog-entry-99.html
   
  kind regards,


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## Akula1321

So by your logic, noone should buy the M8 because all the available impedance selections are too high anyway. Btw, your assertion that 4 ohms output-z is ideal for Audezes is completely off. So is 2 ohms for IEMs especially when many have multiple drivers w/ crossovers. The 8ohm is a made up general ratio for damping factor and is not an 'ideal' as you claim but a minimum standard as a best practice. If you could move your theoretical off-topic debate to the other site while others wait for a constructive response from CEntrance, that would be great, thx.

Thx Michael, just thought it would be something to consider since it's in development still.


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## ExpatinJapan

akula1321 said:


> So by your logic, noone should buy the M8 because all the available impedance selections are too high anyway. ........ So is 2 ohms for IEMs especially when many have multiple drivers w/ crossovers. .


?????

No, I think the selection of output impedances are near perfect ( 1ohm and 2ohm are low) which is why i have already paid for a preorder of the hifi-m8.
I think the 1ohm option is great for multidriver iems too.

Perhaps you are confusing output power W/mW etc( and perhaps Gain) with headphone output impedance.

Hifi-M8 Specs:

Output Impedance 
1, 2, 10 Ohm, selectable 


Output Power 
 1.5W (total), drives 32...600 Ohm headphones 

Max Output level* 
+13.5dBV (32 Ohms load) (still verifying) 
+18.6dBV (300 Ohms load) (still verifying) 
+19.0dBV (600 Ohms load) (still verifying


I think you misread my post, and no i am not going to join the other site to increase their traffic nor will i continue this debate.
Best regards and bye.


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## Makiah S

Very neat! Glad to hear there have been a number of nessicary changes made  looks pretty interesting and I do like the different levels of Bass ans Treble since most certianly different cans needs different amping [that is ofc if you desire to color your sound, which in some case I think most of us want to ;3 [I love colorful EMD]]
   
  Non the less looking forward to seeing the final product!


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## mgoodman

*Regarding the 120 Ohm output impedance:*
   
  We did some research at Syn Aud Con (they know everything about standards) and it was helpful to look into the history of the standard. It looks like the 120 Ohm standard was addressing a very specific need, not particular to the HiFi community. We learned that the primary reason for that standard was to accommodate parallel connection of dissimilar headphones and the use of cheaper output op amps.
   
  Audio fidelity was never a concern, rather overall cheapness of solution was the priority. You can actually drive longer cable lines with high output impedance. You can also use cheaper op amps without fear of blowing them out. However the damping factor will invariably suffer. I can see how this may be useful in large distributed environments, such as studio headphone feeds or conference room listening setups.
   
  For HiFi use however, the higher output impedance is probably less ideal. In general, you want the amplifier to have the best possible damping factor, which is achieved by lowering the output impedance. This helps fight off any impedance non-linearity in the inductive load (headphones in this case). Raising the output impedance does not make the frequency response any more linear. While it may be a better match for a couple of high-impedance headphone models, it will be less ideal for the majority of headphones, which feature low impedance (such as most IEMs and those models that came out in the iPod era).
   
  In the result of this research we are concluding that higher output impedance will not make the sound quality any higher. If you happen to own those (rare) headphones that require higher output impedance, and are planning to get a HiFi-M8, please let us know and we will adjust one of the impedance switch positions for 120 OHm to meet your need. We don't mind making custom mods like that and in the result you will have a unique unit.
   
  Knowing that most of our customers will use IEMs, we will keep the main model at lower output impedances, for a better match with those, more popular headphones.

 Thank you for the opportunity to learn about a new standard.
   
  Michael


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## KT66

Watched the video, a confusing product, but as Europe as a market is not even mentioned I guess we will miss out again. 

Dear USA, Europe still exists BTW


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## ScuderiaHeadFi

Finally I get a size comparison... It's a bit chubbier than I thought it would be, though it sounds like they've stuffed all that space with some good filling!
   
  Edit: Post 100!


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## Akula1321

Brilliant response Michael, you nailed it perfectly and thank you for considering such requests.  For my particular needs I'll be pre-ordering the M8 w/ an impedance selection of 1/10/120 then.   
   
  Many thanx! 
   
  Since we are on the subject, I presume '1' is the lowest possible value w/ this architecture?  Obviously even less is better for say a multi BA/xover w/ 12-16 ohms impedance as even the O2 w/ 1 ohm has shown some linearity issues w/ such IEM compared to other amps.  If the actual value is really <1 but just uses '1' for the sake of simple language, then disregard the question entirely.
   
  Thanks again.  You're the man Michael!


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## mgoodman

*> Dear USA, Europe still exists BTW*
Yes, I was born in Europe, so I know  
   
We are actually in the process of setting up serious distribution in the EU, so all is not lost.
I sent you a PM. Please ask any questions you may have here or by PM. We love Europe!


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## mgoodman

Just in case you guys missed it, there is a separate HiFi-M8 thread, currently almost 50 pages long!
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/622939/the-centrance-hifi-m8-thread
   
  And please don't forget to visit our daily blog, where we talk about bringing the product to life:
   
  http://centrance.com/products/new/blog/
   
  Michael


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## kskwerl

Quote: 





mgoodman said:


> Just in case you guys missed it, there is a separate HiFi-M8 thread, currently almost 50 pages long!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/622939/the-centrance-hifi-m8-thread
> 
> ...


 
  While the M8 is a little thick but still very portable, do you guys plan to keep the same form factor in the final product?


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## mgoodman

kskwerl said:


> While the M8 is a little thick but still very portable, do you guys plan to keep the same form factor in the final product?




Yes, it will be the same size. The battery is quite large in size to give you that much output level.


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## LFC_SL

Quote: 





mgoodman said:


> *> Dear USA, Europe still exists BTW*
> Yes, I was born in Europe, so I know
> 
> We are actually in the process of setting up serious distribution in the EU, so all is not lost.
> I sent you a PM. Please ask any questions you may have here or by PM. We love Europe!


 
   
  Excellent! May I be the first to suggest the UK to reach out to the rest of Europe  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Seriously, seasoned head-fiers may be crazy enough to import, but not having to pay import charges and international shipping is always nice to minimise the wallet hurt and may even swing a purchasing decision


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## fabianb4

It does have 3.5, has two


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## mgoodman

Currently, shipping is free on all CEntrance items. 
   
  PM me if you can recommend a good distributor in UK. We are shopping.


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## Craigster75

The M8 seems like an amazing amp with great specs and features.  Unfortunately, for my needs, it is too big to be truly portable.  I hope in the future, Centrance can offer a "mini" version with scaled back features and about half the size.  However, if I was deciding between the Fostex HP-P1 and the M8, I would absolutely choose the M8 based on features, particularly adjustable bass and treble.


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## mgoodman

Thank you for your valuable feedback! Noted


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## Zuqi

I would say the size of the m8 won't be an issue for me. A high sound quality transportable amp/dac combo is what I'm looking for, it don't has to be tiny as most of us will use it to drive full-size cans, so it can't be portable anyway. As long as it won't compromise SQ, I don't mind centrance make the m8 even larger.


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## mrfcpa

Hello, Michael ...
   
  Are you still sending out the t-shirts to those of us who ordered and paid early? Not that big a deal whether or not I am sent one, but saw you were on line and decided to ask rather than bother Ms. Roma in an e-mail.


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## mgoodman

В





mrfcpa said:


> Hello, Michael ...
> 
> Are you still sending out the t-shirts to those of us who ordered and paid early? Not that big a deal whether or not I am sent one, but saw you were on line and decided to ask rather than bother Ms. Roma in an e-mail.




Our apologies for slower fulfillment of t-shirts. We are working on making a new batch. Stacie will be in touch with you next week with the ETA.


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## RubenV

Nice video review.


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## mikemercer

If ANYBODY wants to see Michael's journey while embarkin' on finiahing the HiFi-M8 - check out _*THE HIFI-M8 BLOG. (*_MOST of U know this already)
   
  VERY highly aticipated by me!!!!
   
  I'm lookin forward to having a battery-powered headphone amp/DAC for my MacBook Pro SSD Retina, iPad, iPod Classic, and iPhone 4S!!!!!
  The size is NOT an issue for me!!
   
  I know you WILL DO THIS Michael, 
  and do it WELL.
   
  Yours in Sounds,
   
  Michael
   
   

   
  Esther Lamm, LAMM Industries
  (Used with her Permission)
   
  My friend Esther Lamm (yes daughter of the good doctor behind
  LAMM Industries - that make some of the most exsquisite tube
  amplifiers in the world IMO) styling w/ my Audeze LCD3's.
   
****Making connecting to the younger generation who will be taking OVER 
  the High End stereo industry IS important for us!! You guys can give them 
  feedback as well.  Believe it or not - they will listen.  Just be humble and cool
  about i*t***


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## Craigster75

What are the differences between the standard M8 and the LX version?


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## varyV

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> What are the differences between the standard M8 and the LX version?


 

 The standard has iDevice compatible input while the LX has optical input instead. Evidently, LX is cheaper.


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## mgoodman

Quote: 





mikemercer said:


> Esther Lamm, LAMM Industries
> (Used with her Permission)
> 
> My friend Esther Lamm (yes daughter of the good doctor behind
> ...


 
  Too often around here headphones are seen as being worn by men... How unfair...
  Thanks for supporting fairness and balance with pretty pictures...


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## AML1

The m8 size is not too big imo, especially if it can compare to, or even outperform the ALO Pan Am. I see that as a potential competitor at the size, at least for me.

For me, my attraction to portable audio has 0 to do with analysis. If I want to critically evaluate music, I will sit down at my desktop monitors. Rather, for me, portable audio is about fun. Warm bassy goodness with ample thump in the low registers is what matters to me. If the Hifi-M8 can do that, and do that on par or better than the Pan Am, or Mk3, or RSA Intruder, then I will have found the one amp to rule then all and in the darkness bind them, or however Gandolf said it... 
Though, if the Hifi-M8 is more of a transparent device, that may be ideal for others, just not what I would want from an amp I would use on the move, sourced from my iPhone.


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## Craigster75

Quote: 





aml1 said:


> The m8 size is not too big imo, especially if it can compare to, or even outperform the ALO Pan Am. I see that as a potential competitor at the size, at least for me.
> 
> For me, my attraction to portable audio has 0 to do with analysis. If I want to critically evaluate music, I will sit down at my desktop monitors. Rather, for me, portable audio is about fun. Warm bassy goodness with ample thump in the low registers is what matters to me. If the Hifi-M8 can do that, and do that on par or better than the Pan Am, or Mk3, or RSA Intruder, then I will have found the one amp to rule then all and in the darkness bind them, or however Gandolf said it...
> 
> ...


 

 There is much debate regarding what constitutes a portable amp and I can certainly understand how the M8 qualifies as a portable amp.  In fact, the features and specs packed into the unit are impressive.  However, for my usage and lifestyle, the portability question that is the determining factor is this:  *Will my player and portable amp fit in my pocket?*


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## Ksef10

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> There is much debate regarding what constitutes a portable amp and I can certainly understand how the M8 qualifies as a portable amp.  In fact, the features and specs packed into the unit are impressive.  However, for my usage and lifestyle, the portability question that is the determining factor is this:  *Will my player and portable amp fit in my pocket?*


 

 For me, all my pants have front pockets that are big enough to fit my iphone. The m8+iphone adds a bit of bulge to the pocket, but certainly fits. People that wear tight fitting jeans may not have that luxury though. The bundle fits well in a hoodie or jacket pocket also.


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## mikemercer

The Hifi-M8 is definitely a portable device, just not "pocket-sized".  I think there's a small distinction there.
   
  When I personally say "portable" I don't mean "pocket-sized" which this clearly is not.  However, the device (and I CAN'T WAIT guys!!) maybe just a bit bigger than, say, my ALO International head-amp/DAC, but it's the same size, w/ iDevice, as my ALO RxMK3-B, which I've taken everywhere from Hawaii to Denver to Chicago and New York!  While it may not be the size of your smartphone - it's still totally portable.
   
  Like the rig I just took to the LAOC Audio Society event last Sunday:
   
  Astell&Kern AK100 player
  ALO International head-amp
  Audeze LCD3's (w/ ALO Green Line cables)
   
  That may not sound too portable, but imagine the reactions from old school audiophiles when I showed up with it!  One of them is pictured below (my buddy Russ, who's a live sound engineer and audiophile - and was BLOWN AWAY at the resolving capabilities and "goose-bump factor" of the system).  Many of us have such small devices we might look at the HiFi-M8 as a large item.  As somebody who's been reporting on high end audio for 20 years (man that makes me sound old, when I'm only 38) I can say all these items are portable next to some of the larger components!  It's refreshing to have such amazing sound on-the-go now.  
   
  I don't feel like I'm missing anything w/ my portable rig,
  and I've been using the E.A.R HP4 tube headphone amp + SimAudio Moon DAC100 as my reference at home lately!  WHOAH.  Review on that to come ASAP.
   
  In the meantime - I'm just excited to see you guys push the envelope of whats possible in portable today!  I know Michael and his team will hit it out of the park on this one...


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