# Speaker upgrade help. Bower and Wilkins CM8 or ASW Cantius 404?



## obzilla

So guys, I'm looking to upgrade my loudspeakers.
  I currently have a pair of BW 685s, which are great, but I got the bug, heard some better stuff, and now they just won't do.
   
  I'm looking at about $2400 CDN as my ceiling, and as prices in Canada aren't quite fair, that is the best deal I can get for the CM8s, "all in". Normally that is their retail for the pair, but I can get them tax and shipping in for $2400 outright.
   
  I have also auditioned the ASW Cantius 404s, they are $2000 for the pair, and I reckon I can get the dealer to come down to that much all in, as I have purchased enough gear with them and they know I am on the fence as to which model.
  The 504s are $2400 before taxes etc, and I may be able to get that as an all in price, but really I just see them as being a bit louder and bigger.
   
  Does anyone have experience with both brands? An opinion on what I ought to do? I have auditioned them both, and really love them both, but I could no audition them A/B due to one dealer stocking one brand, and the other the other. So, since hearing memory over prolonged periods is a bit difficult to trust, I'm looking to you guys for advice.
   
  I'm not too interested in other models as these both have the sound and stylings that I like, but I am open minded, so if there is something in the $2,000-$2,400 CDN retail price that you guys would suggest to me, I'll have a look.
   
  I'm using a Marantz NR1602 with Ipod direct connection, and UD5005 universal disc player as my sources, the PM8004 (75w @ 4ohm/100w @ 8ohms) is my amp.
  I'm 90% music oriented with these speakers, thought the lady and I do like to watch blurays with good sound.
   
  Any advice or suggestions will be welcome.


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## Lenni

have you auditioned other speakers other than these two? I know you said you like their sound signature, but I would strongly suggest that you audition other speakers, if you haven't. personally I find B&W speakers way overpriced. I also wouldn't rule out stand-mount's - in that price range you might be surprised - since they're mostly used for music.


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## obzilla

Quote: 





lenni said:


> have you auditioned other speakers other than these two? I know you said you like their sound signature, but I would strongly suggest that you audition other speakers, if you haven't. personally I find B&W speakers way overpriced. I also wouldn't rule out stand-mount's - in that price range you might be surprised - since they're mostly used for music.


 

 I'm open minded, and understand that better can be had for the money with B&W, but they have done right by me so far.
  The AWSs Cantius are amazing as well, furthermore handmade in Germany as opposed to Chinese manufactured Bowers.... what do you recommend in my price range?
   
  I currently have stand-mounts, but was leaning towards floor standers.
  Unfortunately, or not, aesthetics are a consideration as the girlfriend doesn't want hideous blocks in the living room.
  That said, I am all ears if you have some ideas.


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## Lenni

someone posted these on another thread... they seem interesting, but aesthetically probably are out the question. the AWSs Cantius seem interesting too. unfortunately most of the speakers that I know or would consider are slightly over the budget (around $3-4K). others that I can think of are maybe the LSA 2, or the GoldenEar Triton Two; the Paradigm Signature 2; the Amphion Argon3, or the Merlin's. another one would be the NOLA's Boxer, and if you find a place to audition them don't forget to give the Conterder's a listen too. also some of Totem's or PSB's. so many speakers...


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## obzilla

Thanks for the links, I think I'm leaning towards the cantius, and another I've just checked out.

Any opinions on Zu's omen or soulfly models?


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## obzilla

Quote: 





lenni said:


> someone posted these on another thread... they seem interesting, but aesthetically probably are out the question. the AWSs Cantius seem interesting too. unfortunately most of the speakers that I know or would consider are slightly over the budget (around $3-4K). others that I can think of are maybe the LSA 2, or the GoldenEar Triton Two; the Paradigm Signature 2; the Amphion Argon3, or the Merlin's. another one would be the NOLA's Boxer, and if you find a place to audition them don't forget to give the Conterder's a listen too. also some of Totem's or PSB's. so many speakers...


 


  Well, I half took your advice. I had already checked out other speakers, but I spent a little more time with it.
  Auditioned some Totems, Paradigms, and  Monitor Audios. And went back to the BWs, to be fair.
  They left me kind of "meh" for the price after listening to some of the other stuff. Especially after another audition of the ASWs.
   
  I wound up climbing the ladder a bit and getting the model above what I was looking at initially, after haggling just a bit, the Cantius 504s. For less than $2300 I have a brand new pair burning in. They are much more musical than the BWs and I'm quite happy. I can't wait to hear them after 100 hours or so. This weekend should be fun.
   
  $3-4K, would have surely bought me something even better, but for my budget, I think I've done just about as well I as I could have.
   
  Thanks much for not letting me fall into the brand name trap, I know better anyways, but since I'm a bit newer with the speakers, something was telling me to just "stick with what I know" instead of exploring more interesting, yet lesser known alternatives.
   
  Super sharp looking too.
   
http://www.asw-loudspeaker.com/asw-we/produkte/cantius/cantius-504-standlautsprecher.php?sprache=english


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## Lenni

Congratz! They’re fine looking speakers. I would have auditioned a few more, but I guess you had already made up your mind. well I hope it was the right decision


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## Ryan1980

We must have the same taste in speakers or shop at the same stores.
   
  I have been casually looking to upgrade for the last 2 years, auditioned a dozen different "slim" floor standing speakers in the $2000 range. Narrowed it down to ASW Cantius 404, Elac 247, and B&W CM8. Surprisingly with such small drivers the ASW 404 stand out from the rest, music through them just sounds more interesting. The only thing that holds me back is that I am worried about the longevity of the 4" speakers ASW uses.
   
  My question for you (having heard them both) is 504 a significant upgrade from the 404, what made you decide to purchase these?  I want to keep the cost as low as possible but I also want a speaker that will give me at least 10-15 years of enjoyment.


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## obzilla

Quote: 





ryan1980 said:


> We must have the same taste in speakers or shop at the same stores.
> 
> I have been casually looking to upgrade for the last 2 years, auditioned a dozen different "slim" floor standing speakers in the $2000 range. Narrowed it down to ASW Cantius 404, Elac 247, and B&W CM8. Surprisingly with such small drivers the ASW 404 stand out from the rest, music through them just sounds more interesting. The only thing that holds me back is that I am worried about the longevity of the 4" speakers ASW uses.
> 
> My question for you (having heard them both) is 504 a significant upgrade from the 404, what made you decide to purchase these?  I want to keep the cost as low as possible but I also want a speaker that will give me at least 10-15 years of enjoyment.


 

 Honestly? No not really, they are almost identical.
  Slightly larger driver on the 504, impedance, and just a bit more range on the low end frequency range (due to the larger driver), aside from a larger speaker capable of higher volumes, I really think that is the only benefit. I got a good price though, so I went with the 504s over the 404s, simply because it was a good deal.
  I doubt one would hear much of a difference between the two at equal listening levels... save for that very bottom end of the spectrum (where, as you know, the 404s excell, the 504 is just a bit further, a bit more, a bit better, but not much)
   
  The 604 on the other hand has a sub that covers the whole range, almost, kind of wish I had gone for that, but not really. I'm super content.
   
  I did just get mine, so I can't speak to longevity, and by the time I could (in the 10-15 years you mention), well, something else will be around. The warranty is good for 5 years, I can't see why they wouldn't last 2 or more times longer than that in terms of functionality.
   
  I've burned them in now, and when I sit at home and listen, my face is painted with a smile. I just need an Earmes Lounger, and I am set
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  The only upgrades I see any time soon for me, are source/component related. Perhaps a nicer amp, better DAC, etc, I think the speakers are the strongest part of my loudspeaker chain currently. There are obviously finer speakers available in their size, but I don't believe anything bests them in their price range.
   
  I just got some Kimber Kables today, looking forward to trying them out after I get home from work, see how they behave.
   
  Here is a tech data comparison between the two, for what it's worth.
   
*504*
*technical data: *

 *Network:* *18 dB impedance linearizes* *Woofer:* *2 x 130 mm aluminium-cone* *Tweeter:* *30 mm high quality silk-dome* *Cabinet finish:* *Realwood / eggshell painted / high glossy lacquered struted and interlocked cabinet* *Size:* *hight: 1135 mm / width: 165 mm / depth: 375 mm* *Cantinous power RMS:* *140 Watt* *Maximum power hdlg:* *200 Watt* *Frequency range:* *32 - 25000 Hz* *Sensitivity (2,83 V/m):* *91,2 dB* *Crossover frequency:* *2000 Hz* *Suitable for ampl.:* *4 - 8 Ohm* *Impedance:* *4 Ohm* *Packing:* *1 piece* *Weight:* *23,5 kg*
   
   
*404*
*technical data: *

 *Network:* *18 dB impedance linearizes* *Woofer:* *2 x 100 mm aluminium-cone* *Tweeter:* *30 mm high quality silk-dome* *Cabinet finish:* *Realwood / eggshell painted / high glossy lacquered struded and interlocked cabinet* *Size:* *hight: 1050 mm / width: 140 mm / depth: 340 mm* *Cantinous power RMS:* *100 Watt* *Maximum power hdlg:* *150 Watt* *Frequency range:* *35 - 25000 Hz* *Sensitivity (2,83 V/m):* *89,5 dB* *Crossover frequency:* *2000 Hz* *Suitable for ampl.:* *4 - 8 Ohm* *Impedance:* *4 Ohm* *Packing:* *1 piece* *Weight:* *17 kg*
   
   
  I will say my decision was made very difficult by the offerings from Totem Acoustic, if you have access to them in your area, give them a listen too.
  Otherwise, not knowing you, your music/listening tastes, or what you expect... the Cantius are a fantastic value in my humble opinion and admittedly limited experience in loudspeakers.
  Hope that helps!


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## Ryan1980

I think you made a good choice with ASW, the Germans seem to have a good handle on building great loudspeakers. I have heard the Totem Arro/Sttaf before, they spit out some nice sound, but something is missing... wish I could put them side by side with the 404s and find out. I guess I am just concerned because ASW has not been on the N.A. market for long (from what I can remember) hope the build quality of these tiny speakers stacks up to the sound quality. 
   
  As for 504 vs. 404? Thanks very much for your feedback, I can see the efficiency, driver size and enclosure volume is a bit different, same luxurious 1.25 inch tweeter but I cant hear what that equates to. I have to special order these from my dealer because I want gloss white, its a bit of a leap of faith and a lot of money for me.
   
  Thanks for your insight, not a whole lot of reviews on these speakers, Im putting a lot of trust in my ears.


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## Ryan1980

I'm not having a great experience with the ASW Cantius 404 so far.
   
  Fresh out of the box one of the woofers was defective (voice coil alignment issue) so "breaking in" didn't have any improvement. Upon closer inspection the 4" drivers don't overly impress me they have stamped steel baskets and are not vented as advertised, although they DO sound quite nice I'm a little concerned to over drive them. Tweeters look and sound pretty solid. The box construction could use a little more bracing but the build quality is nice, the x-over is made of high grade components. ASW doesn't have a repair facility in Canada so I have to wait over a month to have a new speaker shipped to me. Almost $2000 tied up and no enjoyment yet.
   
  Thought I would share, unfortunately I can't give much of a review on how they sound.


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## boclcown

Please please please check out the Dynaudio Focus series.


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## Ryan1980

I do like the Dynaudio Focus series and the in house approach they take. Just not sure it's the right fit for my budget, existing equipment and small "soft" listening room. I've found in the past that larger (dual/triple 6") tower speakers "strong arm" the sound stage, I also find MTM design is helpful when your seated up close... think centre channel speakers? Maybe it's just my impression but the B&W CM8/9, Monitor Audio Silver, Paradigm Monitor, Totem Forrest (Dnyaudio drivers) lacked the same dimensional image I experienced with the ASW.. abide very different opinion with the bookshelf models.


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## obzilla

Sorry to hear about the bad luck with that woofer man.
  If you bought from an authorized dealer they should be able to set you up with a loaner while your 404s are taken care of.
  You do say yourself that they sound quite nice, so hopefully you get a repair-replacement ASAP, and can begin just enjoying them.
   
  My 504s have settled in quite nicely. I enjoy them regularly.


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## Ryan1980

Quote:


obzilla said:


> Sorry to hear about the bad luck with that woofer man.
> If you bought from an authorized dealer they should be able to set you up with a loaner while your 404s are taken care of.
> You do say yourself that they sound quite nice, so hopefully you get a repair-replacement ASAP, and can begin just enjoying them.
> 
> My 504s have settled in quite nicely. I enjoy them regularly.


 
   
  It's a bit of a long story and I'm a little picky, maybe stubborn at times, so I'll just wait for the new speaker to come. I just wanted to share my experience with the drivers ASW is using, maybe lack of testing (QC), or just bad luck? 
   
  I might pick up a new Cambridge Audio Azur 650A V2 to drive them. Any thoughts on this amp compared to my existing Yamaha AX-570 from the late 90's (still in great shape).


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## obzilla

I'm using a Marantz PM8004, and it drives them quite well, but the only comparison I have for them would be an old gutless Denon AVR unit I've since sold. So no help on the Cambridge in specific, though the Cambridge you mention and my Marantz are roughly even in terms of output. 75 vs 70w @ 8ohms. Which is more than enough.
   
  I might spend a little more on an amp though since they generally last quite a while if upgrade-itus doesn't come into play.
   
  And let's just hope it was only a spot of bad luck and nothing more with your 404s.
   
  Cheers.


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## Ryan1980

I think the Marantz PM8004 and Azur 650A are similar enough (specification) to be a direct comparison, I'm glad to hear that's enough power to drive the Cantius series nicely. I always thought my next purchase would be separate pre-amp/amplifier but it seems every few years I put this off, the price goes up! The main reason I consider another integrated amplifier is because with the addition of the Azur 651A the price has dropped significantly on the 650A, the only difference I can see is the addition of a USB audio input (not an issue considering I have the DacMagic).
   
  My problem now is finding a good home for my recently restored AX-570 and still waiting for the 404's to cross the pond.


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