# A New Hybrid from Indeed Hi-Fi Labs: does this look fun?



## ddoingwell

Valve Headphone Pre Amplifier Class A MP3 ipod Laptop X - eBay (item 260368823526 end time Mar-08-09 15:16:07 PDT)


 I know squat about specs but I do know that my Indeed Hi-Fi Labs tube buffer with the same ECC88 tube and the same look sounds really good in my mid-fi system of Rega Brio amp, Shanling HDCD player and Quad 12L speakers. I'm currently using a Meier Corda Arietta as my headphone amp in this system. My question, dear technically-minded readers, is this: does this little headphone amp by Indeed Hi-Fi Labs look fun???

 Commentary appreciated.

 Cheers,
 Don


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## zotjen

Well it's cute. I have to give it that much.


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## scootermafia

it looks pretty damn cute...i'm having trouble keeping my hands off the buy button...but why the hell is it open like that, that's disqualified it for me. There's something disconcerting about a tube amp that has no sides. I won't get it. But it's so cute...


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## XXII

And it's discrete as well. Someone should go for this!


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## Henmyr

This is THE Duggeh amp

 Imaging modding it by putting some wood on the front, sides and maybe back if it doesn't get too hot.

 I would like to remove the blue led under the tube though.


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Henmyr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is THE Duggeh amp

 I would like to remove the blue led under the tube though._

 

My Indeed tube buffer has a blue light under the tube as well and it looks quite sweet for those late evening, low lighting situations...soft blue glow....hmmm..


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## TzeYang

what a rip off.

 The schematic = drawn by Sijosae 10000 years ago. This circuit was first shown by a Korean, sijosae at headwize/zerosoft.

 I would not buy any of those stuffs. Even if the circuit is pretty much textbook stuffs (like most commercial headamps) I would at least make it an effort to improve things and to draw my own schematic drawings.


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## krmathis

Looks like fun to me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Tiny little tube amplifier for $80. No idea about the sound quality and such though...


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## apatN

Well it sure is unique...


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## atbglenn

It looks pretty cool. The shipping is a little expensive though


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## dBs

Awwwwww! Isnt it cuuuuuute! I think it just smiled at me! =D


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## roosta

i thought it looked kinda cool, but i just think its gonna be a dissapointment if i buy one. think il save up and get a beasty tube amp in a few years time.


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## mbd2884

Sure does look cool. Probably all open because of heat issues, since it's using Acryllic frame, which probably doesn't dissipate heat that well?

 Any of you going to go for it? It's incredibly small and compact, nifty.

 As for design rip off, well I think that can be said of a lot amps here. Starving Student sold by Whiplash Audio, Gilmore Lite, and so on. But difference seems credit is given where it's due where this Amp doesn't. Be interesting to see if Korean design is the same.


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## boomy3555

Inquiring minds must know. I just hit the buy button so perhaps in a couple of weeks, I can put it up against my new EF-1


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## deaconblues

that switching power supply looks sweet indeed


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## Gradofan2

Just get yourself a can of electronic dusting spray cleaner to keep it clean and dust free... and... some thick rubber gloves to protect you, if you ever work close to it while its powered up... and... who knows...


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## boomy3555

I'm going to set it down into into an oak box to protect it 1/2 " gap on both sides and open in the front and rear. I Like the RCA's on the side. I think it way help keep the audio cables away from the power plug.


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Inquiring minds must know. I just hit the buy button so perhaps in a couple of weeks, I can put it up against my new EF-1_

 


 Inquiring minds MUST know. Since I started all this, I'm very quite very curious; if you think of it, PM me when it arrives so I can watch the forums closer for your impressions. Sometimes I go "off" Head-fi for weeks on end to allow my wallet to relax. Drying out assists my 12-step program for OCD AudioHolics


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## Drag0n

My only concern with that amp is that im afraid there isnt enough support for the in and out jacks, except for some solder on the board.
 Sometimes the walls of the amp support it some. Id put a support band around it or something. But it looks so cool though, i want one.
 First thing i thought when i heard the name was Duggah, but people beat me to it...lol.

 I dont think the Gilmore Lite, or the SS Millet from Whiplash is a rip-off.
 People have to be careful what they spew around here.


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## ddoingwell

MORE CUTENESS! 

 This time, we have:

New Purple Jelly CMOY OpAmp Headphone Amplifier Amp Â* - eBay (item 250378185159 end time Mar-24-09 13:29:02 PDT)

 Purple huh?


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drag0n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My only concern with that amp is that im afraid there isnt enough support for the in and out jacks, except for some solder on the board.
 Sometimes the walls of the amp support it some. Id put a support band around it or something. But it looks so cool though, i want one.
 First thing i thought when i heard the name was Duggah, but people beat me to it...lol.

 I dont think the Gilmore Lite, or the SS Millet from Whiplash is a rip-off.
 People have to be careful what they spew around here._

 


 My Indeed Tube Buffer had a problem with the in and out jacks and I had to have my friendly local repair geek fortify them, so I see your point entirely. let's be clear here: I'm not endorsing the product, I just like the aesthetic. 

 As for the spew, there can occasionally be a bit of righteous indignation expressed here on Head-fi but those utterances usually say more about the spewer than the product. Mostly, in my experience, people with an axe to grind are truly the grinders.


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## boomy3555

I recieved my package from Indeed. I was surpirised at the fast shipping but when I opened it up I found a Topping integrated speaker amp. I emailed them and the got right back to me. They asked me to email a couple of pics and I assume they'll arrange return shipping. I'll get back on this later. The topper sells in thier ebay store for $90.00 + so I have one of thier more expensive amps. I can do a prisoner exchange.


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## olblueyez

Would fit in a laptop bag nicely. Tubes for the Hotel room, right? Anyone know if that tube has any good rolling options?


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## nsx_23

This looks intriguing, and isn't too expensive either.


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## Lornecherry

this is what you get when you mate a Darkvoice and Shanling


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## boomy3555

*"this is what you get when you mate a Darkvoice and Shanling"*

 Maybe in the embryo stage.
 The tubes look very similar to the EF-1's. 12AU7 or something like that.


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## boomy3555

Very Quick Customer Service response. They seem very eager to correct the problem. The main label had the correct EMS number but the other two labels on the box had a different number on them, so I think that someone else somewhere is getting my Tube amp instead of thier Topping.They are shipping the new amp today and offered the T-Amp for half off, free shipping or return it and they'll refund the shipping back to CN. so I'm gonna go for it. It may be just the thing to use as a pre-amp for some 600ohm Calrad 15-148's I have on B/O.


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## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would fit in a laptop bag nicely. Tubes for the Hotel room, right? Anyone know if that tube has any good rolling options?_

 

6N11, 6DJ8, 6922, ECC88. There are a few options. Anything with the same pinout and a 6.3V 300mA heater would make sound.

 It looks like the Sijosae amp is making another go around after it's initial conception a few years back. I'm not sure why people are latching on to this particular design. It does have similarities with the SSMH (tube heater biasing output transistor) but that's about it.

 There's another vendor on e-bay selling PCBs and a kit. There's a thread in the DIY forum about it.


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## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tubes look very similar to the EF-1's. 12AU7 or something like that._

 

It uses the 6.3V tube.


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## roosta

any further news on this?


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## boomy3555

Tube amp has shipped EMS express. Should get here Monday.


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## Skylab

The 6DJ8 certainly offers an huge quantity of tube rolling options. The JAN-Sylvania 6DJ8 is an very nice sounding tube, and since you can get them easily, NOS/NIB, for $15 each, anyone can afford it


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tube amp has shipped EMS express. Should get here Monday._

 

Have you tried the T amp yet? Maybe you can use the Indeed headphone amp as a pre-amp into the Topping and have yourself a bonus desktop system. The luxury of new toys...


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## boomy3555

I haven't hooked up the T-10 yet. I was thinking of making an Ipod docking station with both the tube headphone, and T-amp so I will have something to leave at work.The t-amp looks "Hard As Nails" indestructable. It'll be my first amp with bananas.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mbd2884* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure does look cool. Probably all open because of heat issues, since it's using Acryllic frame, which probably doesn't dissipate heat that well?

 Any of you going to go for it? It's incredibly small and compact, nifty.

 As for design rip off, well I think that can be said of a lot amps here. Starving Student sold by Whiplash Audio, Gilmore Lite, and so on. But difference seems credit is given where it's due where this Amp doesn't. Be interesting to see if Korean design is the same._

 


 Once again you throw out inflammatory statements without apparently any thought as to what you imply. Both Whiplash Audio and Headamp have been given permission by the amps designers to build these products as commercial ventures. How is that remotely a rip off? The amps bear the designers names. Rip off implies the amp circuits are being used unlawfully without acknowledgement or consent from the designer. That is absolutely not the case.


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## Stevesebastianb

http://vr2xmq-stevesblog.blogspot.co...headphone.html


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## boomy3555

Thanks Steve

 great review


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Stevesebastianb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_VR2XMQ - Steve's Blog HF through SHF: Indeed 6N11 Tube Class A Headphone Amplifier Vs. Qinpu Q1 + Indeed L-top 6N3 Buffer Amplifier._

 

Excellent work Steve. Thanks for that. Have you tried the Little Dot 1+ hybrid? I wonder how it would fare against the Indeed. In your opinion, could the Indeed do justice to picky headphones like the AKG K501-K601-K701s?


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ddoingwell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent work Steve. Thanks for that. Have you tried the Little Dot 1+ hybrid? I wonder how it would fare against the Indeed. In your opinion, could the Indeed do justice to picky headphones like the AKG K501-K601-K701s?_

 

^^^Have a very limited memory on the K701's which I auditioned some time ago. If you look at the specs the Indeed can handle phones with relatively low impedance rating from 16 ohms up to 600 ohms so my educated guess is it should be able to handle them adequately. Not looked into Little dot issue and maybe I should.

 Now await Boomy's evaluation of the Indeed against the EF-1 from Head Direct, that should be interesting!


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## Stevesebastianb

Boomy, how is your review coming along? I will be trying tube rolling this weekend using a Philips 6922 tube.


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## boomy3555

last known location is cleared customs in San Fancisco. on the 13th. So much for express.


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## kansei

This looks very much like the 8Audio 6dj8 amp, only the PCB is smaller and possibly improved. There is a thread in the DIY section of this forum called the "super simple" amp which discusses the 8Audio. You can get an 8Audio PCB for $14 shipped, the populated board for around $100 shipped.

Results for DIY Audio:Head-Phone Amp


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_last known location is cleared customs in San Fancisco. on the 13th. So much for express._

 

^^^ Boomy,

 Hope it arrives soon! I have been having some fun with tube rolling: On A Roll: Tube Rolling - Indeed 6N3 Buffer Amp And 6N11 Class A Headphone Amp - http://vr2xmq-stevesblog.blogspot.com/


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## Skylab

Interesting posts on your blog about tube rolling. I agree that the simple and cheap JAN-GE 5670 is so much better than the chinese 6N3 it's just shocking (note that my comments here are in relation to these tubes in other amps I own - I have not tried the "Indeed" amp).

 My personal experience is that the WE 396A is not worth the money. Slightly, but not hugely better than the ultra-cheap GE 5670. I actually prefer the Sylvania 2C51 over the WE tube.

 Lastly, the JAN-Phillips 6922 is nowhere near as good as the JAN-Sylvania 6DJ8, which is also pretty cheap at $15. Give that a try too.


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting posts on your blog about tube rolling. I agree that the simple and cheap JAN-GE 5670 is so much better than the chinese 6N3 it's just shocking (note that my comments here are in relation to these tubes in other amps I own - I have not tried the "Indeed" amp).

 My personal experience is that the WE 396A is not worth the money. Slightly, but not hugely better than the ultra-cheap GE 5670. I actually prefer the Sylvania 2C51 over the WE tube.

 Lastly, the JAN-Phillips 6922 is nowhere near as good as the JAN-Sylvania 6DJ8, which is also pretty cheap at $15. Give that a try too._

 

^^^ Thanks for the input. I agree the only way to describe the improvement of the JAN-GE 5670 over the stock Chinese 6N3 is "shocking and wicked", have not put the WE 396A yet through it's paces. I will take note on your suggestion on the Sylvania 2C51 and get one to try out. But for now I am very happy with the simple JAN-GE 5670W upgrade.

 The JAN-Philips is quite sweet already in the Indeed Class A headphone amp and also makes a dramatic impact over the stock 6N11, I have the Sylvania 6DJ8's but have not tried them yet. An evil grin just came over my face as a mental image of the Telefunken E88CC crossed my mind, may just put one in just to try and for fun.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Stevesebastianb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ An evil grin just came over my face as a mental image of the Telefunken E88CC crossed my mind, may just put one in just to try and for fun.





_

 

The evil grin that comes from using a tube more expensive than the amp itself?


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The evil grin that comes from using a tube more expensive than the amp itself? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

^^^ I know it would be sheer overkill, but would swap it in momentarily just to see what kind of result came out?


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## Skylab

I'd say if you have one lying around, GO FOR IT!!!!!!


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say if you have one lying around, GO FOR IT!!!!!!_

 

^^^ LOL, I have a matched pair in another pre amp. So I guess can do a quick test. Tried the WE and your are right although it is slightly ahead, the difference is not by such a large margin as the GE 5670W vis-a-vis the cost versus improvement ratio.


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_last known location is cleared customs in San Fancisco. on the 13th. So much for express._

 

^^^Boomy, any luck? Would expect it to have arrived?


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## boomy3555

Not yet. out of customs in LAX not SF as previoulsy posted inbound in LA since the 18th. So Much for Express. It shipped on the 5th.


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## boomy3555

USPS had them in Portland yesterday and this morning I checked and the tracking said that it was now undeliverable and it was being sent back. I emailed Peter and he responded immediately and is shipping a replacement via a different carrier, Since EMS screwed up this shipment as well as sending we the T-amp by mistake last time. ( I Have not hooked up the T-amp yet). Will keep checking.


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_USPS had them in Portland yesterday and this morning I checked and the tracking said that it was now undeliverable and it was being sent back. I emailed Peter and he responded immediately and is shipping a replacement via a different carrier, Since EMS screwed up this shipment as well as sending we the T-amp by mistake last time. ( I Have not hooked up the T-amp yet). Will keep checking._

 

^^^ Oh that is bad luck 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Batting average not too good so far? I hope things change and you get the little amp soon. 

 Sitting here typing and listening to my new Little Dot Mk III SEPP Tube Headphone amp which uses 2 x 6H6 and 2 x GE 5654. I must say I am enjoying it and it sounds promising.


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## boomy3555

My Next tube amp will definitely be a LD or Darkvoice. My EF-1 is great but I will have to hear something new in about six months or so.


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## boomy3555

Just a bump.
 Peter said that mine was the first order for the amp so he's really trying to impress me with C/S. Well, the second shipment, which was the tube amp ( I think) eneded up in the dead Letter Center of USPS because the labels on the box only had the tracking number which gets it as far as my local P.O. , But no actual address. The Postmaster said that they will try to get it back. (Hopefully, there's a packing slip inside with my name and address on it.) As this is the second package from there that got screwed up, I would assume that EMS ( which I've had no problem with in the past) or his shipping dept. is really messing up.
 The third shipment which went Hong Kong Post left Hong Kong Mail Centre on 3/28 and is still in transit. I told Peter that if the other amp does get here from USPS dead letter office, that I would buy that one from him as well (less shipping). I'll probably send it to Skylab for a listen.
 I can't wait for a listen. I think the wait is making me even more anxious to hear it.


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## boomy3555

Not to hyjack the thread, but I had a pairing question. So thanks to multiple shipping errors I will soon have two of the these little babys and the Topping integrated SS amp as well, so I was wondering about putting everything together as a hybrid, with optional straight tube bypass. I 'm thinking of running the Rt source feed to one tube amp, and then the Lt source feed to the other tube amp. then run them both seperately to the Topping SS amp. I would also keep all grounds and signal lines seperated into four wires. from the Topping, I would run four seperate wires to the front panel into a 4 pin mini-XLR in a semi balance configuration, side by side with a standard 6.3mm TRS. ( switched) I would also have another mini XLR running directly from the tube amps to the front panel, completely by-passing the SS amp. Any Thoughts out there ??

 Also, I was wondering what would happen if I ran the source lines to both Rt & Lt RCA imputs of each tube amp. Rt signal & grnd to both rt & lt RCA inputs of one tube amp, and the Lt signal & grnd to both rt and left RCA input of the other tube amp. Too Much Pre-amping?


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## joewatch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to hyjack the thread, but I had a pairing question. So thanks to multiple shipping errors I will soon have two of the these little babys and the Topping integrated SS amp as well, so I was wondering about putting everything together as a hybrid, with optional straight tube bypass. I 'm thinking of running the Rt source feed to one tube amp, and then the Lt source feed to the other tube amp. then run them both seperately to the Topping SS amp. I would also keep all grounds and signal lines seperated into four wires. from the Topping, I would run four seperate wires to the front panel into a 4 pin mini-XLR in a semi balance configuration, side by side with a standard 6.3mm TRS. ( switched) I would also have another mini XLR running directly from the tube amps to the front panel, completely by-passing the SS amp. Any Thoughts out there ??

 Also, I was wondering what would happen if I ran the source lines to both Rt & Lt RCA imputs of each tube amp. Rt signal & grnd to both rt & lt RCA inputs of one tube amp, and the Lt signal & grnd to both rt and left RCA input of the other tube amp. Too Much Pre-amping?_

 

I don't see how it would be possible for you to keep your right and left channels anywhere close to balanced. A normal stereo amp, balanced or not, would have matched ICs, caps, tubes, etc from the same lot that would keep both channels within a tight range of each other. Also, post-production, the channels would be tested and tuned if necessary to match as close as possible. 

 Don't let anyone squash your dreams, though. You may get lucky and make something amazing!


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## boomy3555

I'd keep them audibly balanced, Rt = Lt, by using the individual volume controls on each amp. but I assume you mean something different when you define balanced. I'm somewhat ignorant when it comes to the topology of amps. I just saw a logical chain of gear and thought that seperating the Rt and Lt and channeling them through seperate amps might make a more balance flow. Similar to the dual amp basis of the Grado RA1 but without a common ground.


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## joewatch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd keep them audibly balanced, Rt = Lt, by using the individual volume controls on each amp. but I assume you mean something different when you define balanced. I'm somewhat ignorant when it comes to the topology of amps. I just saw a logical chain of gear and thought that seperating the Rt and Lt and channeling them through seperate amps might make a more balance flow. Similar to the dual amp basis of the Grado RA1 but without a common ground._

 

Okay, I think I know what you're getting at. 

 The purpose of balanced audio amplification is to produce amplification while reducing noise. A "balanced" amp usually does this by creating an inverted (differential) signal, which allows subtraction of any noise that has been introduced along the amplification pathway. Obviously, you aren't able to do this with your configuration, since all of the hardware you're working with is single-ended (unbalanced.)

 By separating the audio channels into 2 different amps, I think you're suggesting that you would benefit from noise reduction due to less cross-talk / EM interference between the left and right channels. I think that is probably true, but at the same time, you would be introducing more noise due to the increased space that your signals are exposed to. 

 With regard to "balancing" the left and right channels, meaning keeping them at the same amplification level, you might be able to approximate that by ear or even better by using an oscilloscope, but the problem is that there is always going to be some drift in impedance, especially with tubes, which vary in their characteristics based on the temperature. 

 In any case, this is all theory, and in practice, it might work. So give it a shot and let us know how it works!


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## boomy3555

Thanks for the educational theory stuff. I tried to get it all from the "Tubes, FAQ" thread but I got confused after about the sixth page. I'll put it all together and try it. If I don't like it, I'll just use one tube amp as a pre-amp running to the Topping as the OP amp stage. I'll use the other one for straight "Tube" use but my cans are all fairly low impedence, so I may need to stick with the hybird.


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## boomy3555

Well it finally came today. The third try. this time via Hong Kong Post instead of EMS. It was well packaged and came with all the little cheapy goodies listed on eBay. A funky blue RCA, 3.5 to RCA cable, and 3.5 to 6.3 adapter. Personally I would suggest that Indeed keep the little cheapie things. If you care enough to want a tube amp, chances are, you'll already have better IC's than what came with the amp. Popped in the tube and powered up and warmed up for about 1 hr before first listen. First listen came from my Ipod 5.5 gen. 80gb Video headphone out>>>Milian's 3.5 neutriks OFC cable dual canare RCA >>>>>indeed amp via the 3.5 input on the front panel to the right of the volume knob to my Denon AHD7000's
 Right off I could tell that this is money well spent. smooth warm and clear with not even a hint of brightness. I then ran from the ipod LOD instead of the H/P out and the SQ was slightly brighter and less controled but still very smooth.

 I listened to my slighlty higher impedence. Fostex T50RP's and they really like this tube idea alot. A much different signature than the Denons, but we're talking apples and tangerines here between the Denon and Fostex.
 Anyway overall first impression are very good for SQ.
 There are a couple of minor poor build issues I found. The RCA and 3.5mm input jacks are of very poor quality and any movement of the IC in the plugs causes signal cut out. And I do mean "any". This is only a minor concern as I plan to run this amp as a pre-amp and I will pull the RCA jacks and run hard wire from the board to the input board of the Topping SS amp.
 There is an indent in the volume pot at 50%. When I first turned the volume knob before powering up, I felt the indent and I was afraid that they had installed a balance control by mistake.
 The 6.5 gold headphone output is strong and firm with no conectivity issues. I have posted a couple of pics of the RCA sent with the unit so you can see that the RCA jacks are out of alignment even on the inside, as the angle of the IC in the pics is the natural direction of travel for the plugs. even pushed in all the way, they are still at this angle.











 More Later.

 Oh One More Thing. This little baby runs pretty warm to hot. don't even think of touching the black heat dissipators on the right and left rear of the amp..It will burn you !!


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## ddoingwell

So Boomy...you mentioned that you thought you might wind up with 2 of these amps; is that what actually happened? If yes, were both amps similarly flawed? Did you notify Peter about the quality control issues mentioned? I also see that you "recently" had AKG K702s and I'm wondering if you still have access to them and can comment on this amp's suitability for fussy AKGs. Cheers, Don


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## boomy3555

sorry but the 702's are not availl.
 The other amp is still lost in the USPS dead letter office waiting to be opened up. I hope there's a packing slip inside. there was not one inside of the amp I just got. I will check iit out if it ever gets here.


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## Stevesebastianb

Boomy,

 Looks like you are taking a certain liking to this little amp. Have you rolled any tubes yet. You need to and you will find the stock tube although good does no justice at all for this little amp. I have tried the Phillips 6922 which is very well balanced, but after trying the Sylvania 6DJ6 I liked it even better. You need to seriously think about changing the tube. Quite a dramatic difference!


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## boomy3555

I have a couple of Russian tubes from thetubestore.com but haven't had a chance to roll them into either this or the EF-1. I have a "ken-Rad" and "Tungsol" coming from ebay in a few days so I'll need lots of time to roll them all.


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## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a couple of Russian tubes from thetubestore.com but haven't had a chance to roll them into either this or the EF-1. I have a "ken-Rad" and "Tungsol" coming from ebay in a few days so I'll need lots of time to roll them all._

 

^^^I personally do not like the Russian tubes but that is my own personal preference.


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## boomy3555

Well I ran this little bay for a good long time and I must say, I has a really fanatastic SQ. Warm, Clean, no "dead air" hiss, even at full volume. I would easily put the SQ and the synergy with my Denons equal of slighty higher than the EF-1. Now having said that, the EF-1 has a much better build quality and it will be some time before we know if this little amp will "indeed" hold up.
 I have not rolled any tubes so all of my early impressions are as "Stock".
 I took the time to chain it up with the Topping integrated amp but it did not go well. the Topper added alot if hiss and as it is made for full sized speakers it's just too powerful for low impedence phones. I tried a 50 ohm attenuator both between the source (Ipod 5th gen .WAV) and the indeed amp and between the Topping and the headphones and that did help but not enough to keep me from unplugging the whole gear chain and going right back to the Indeed all by it'self. At this price, I think everyone should try it out. Especially "Tubie Nubies". It's a great starter amp and an excellent way to learn about tube rolling. 
 I don't know if running low impedence cans off of this tube amp will hurt it. I know that there are power issues with the amp it'self, but I'm going to be using this one at work from now on.


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## boomy3555

I've spent some time with the little Indeed and my Fostex T50RP's, my baby step into "Orthodynamics",
 And it really brings out bass and fullness without recessing the wondeful mids of the Fostex's. I find, I still need to EQ a bit, but not bad stock.
 I have a couple of Russian tubes I tried with the Indeed but either they are bad or I messed 'em up trying to put them into an amp where stupidly they did not belong. I must say in my defense that they did not work correctly in this Indeed amp, even before I tried them in the EF-1. I ordered two more to try out my Semi-Balanced idea and then this one is going off to Skylab for a looksy.

 Edit: If Skylab wants to, of course.

 More Later.


----------



## mrarroyo

It sure looks sweet, but I need another amp like a hole in the head. Do look forward to hearing the reviews.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: If Skylab wants to, of course.
_

 

I'd be happy to!


----------



## boomy3555

I'll PM you when I'm ready to ship.


----------



## endless402

seems to be a new larger version for sale
 it looks to be much better built


----------



## spookygonk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *endless402* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seems to be a new larger version for sale_

 

Where did you see that?


----------



## geetarman49

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spookygonk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you see that?_

 

Or did he mean this one?
Valve Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Amplifier pre amp B - eBay (item 250494941800 end time Oct-07-09 09:24:57 PDT)

 which seems to be identical except for the cap & thru-hole in top plate.


----------



## Beerme

Any updates forthcoming??

 I have one of these (the bravo audio, not the indeed), winging it's way to me now.

 I am a 'Tubie Newbie', this will be my first, so can anyone please tell me which other tubes I can use in this amp? I can't find the 6DJ6 Sylvania on Ebay, is there an equivalent?


----------



## ttan98

equivalent of 6DJ8 are:

 ECC88(european numbering), 6922.


----------



## Skylab

The CV2492 and CV2493 also are equivalent (and very good sounding).


----------



## Beerme

Thanks people, on that advice I have just purchased these, (with a view to make a DIY amp soon),

PCC88/ECC88/6DJ8 TESLA MATCHED PAIR, SUPERB NOS 1971 on eBay (end time 25-Sep-09 18:49:28 BST)

 What do you think??


----------



## spookygonk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beerme* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have one of these (the bravo audio, not the indeed), winging it's way to me now._

 

Both the _Indeed Audio_ and the _Bravo Audio_ are (almost) identical, so is one copying the other (which is better?), are they getting the amps from the same supplier (then adding their own logo) or is there a basic kit/schematic that these are being based on?

 Missed out on the last batch from bravodeal4you's ebay page but still interested in getting one.


----------



## wern_d

Bump
 Does anyone know the difference between the Bravo Audio and the Indeed version???


----------



## FraGGleR

I am also interested. Just comparing pictures, the Bravo doesn't use the bigger Dale resistors, however it has much larger capacitor, and definitely looks to use much more robust connectors (metal instead of plastic). I don't know what any of that means for sound quality, but the Bravo certainly looks to me like it might be a more robust solution. Can anyone explain what the different resistors and capcitors might do to the sound? I would assume that the sounds should be similar, but I really don't have a clue.


----------



## FraGGleR

Oh, and could this drive a 600ohm set of headphones? Thinking the DT990 Premium 600 ohms.


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and could this drive a 600ohm set of headphones? Thinking the DT990 Premium 600 ohms._

 

No problem, I have 50ohm headphone, it drove it to a very loud level.


----------



## FraGGleR

Well, something about this little guy has compelled me. I bought it and will see that it does for the sound of my SRH840's.


----------



## barleyguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and could this drive a 600ohm set of headphones? Thinking the DT990 Premium 600 ohms._

 

Any tube hybrid should be excellent for 600 ohm headphones. One of the advantages of a tube hybrid design is linear voltage gain. The Indeed in particular is very decent. I heard Boomy's Indeed at a meet and thought it was quite good. I'm not sure if he has tried 600 ohm headphones with it, but based on the design I suspect it should be good.

 The different capacitors are likely the coupling caps, which are a vital part of the sound of a hybrid. I don't know about the particular caps they are using though.


----------



## kb1gra

I'm thinking about buying these but am wondering about a couple of things...

 thanks to the poor translation on the ebay listing, it makes it sound like the Indeed version doesn't ship with a tube??

 And the Bravo ones seem to be selling for less...has anyone heard the Bravo one with the larger coupling caps? I'm a tubie newbie too (well, new to tube amplifiers) and this seems like a really inexpensive way to try it out, but I'd like to know whether I'd be better off going with the dale resistors, etc or the larger caps and more robust connections on the Bravo?


----------



## FraGGleR

I had this question, but got sucked into the excitement of the ebay auction. I have the Bravo coming to me mainly because the more robust connections appealed to me. After seeing some pictures of misaligned ports for the Indeed, I decided to chance it on the Bravo. I don't know squat about resisters or capacitors, but the bigger ones on the Bravo looked cooler to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am getting a solder station for Christmas to start tinkering with this stuff. In the meantime I better start learning about electrical components and design. 

 BTW, I suppose if you are a good DIY'er or know one, you could get the Indeed and put better connectors on yourself. Or conversely desolder some transistors and add them yourself. I simply figured that I have no real SQ reference point and also figured that a couple resistor differences couldn't make THAT big a difference so I went with something that might stand up to more bumps than the other since this will be on my very cluttered desk (away from flammable things) and will be going to school with me.


----------



## FraGGleR

Oh and glad to hear that this little fellah might actually be a good starter amp for some DT990s. Can't beat $65 for a point of entry into tubes unless you get luckier than I did on the auctions.


----------



## ttan98

I bought 2 units from Indeed , Peter the seller was very easy to deal with and the products arrived promptly.

 Both units come with Dale resistors and tube(I ordered one with and one without).The output caps can be improved and also the tube. There are a no. of mods you can do but there are more complicated/difficult better avoid doing them, BTW I am modding one unit as I have 2 units. I think you will be happy with it as it is.

 cheers.


----------



## kb1gra

Well, maybe I'll snipe a Bravo auction and see if I can score one for ~$45 ish.


----------



## kb1gra

Well, after watching a number of these auctions progress for a couple days, I am beginning to suspect that some level of shill bidding is going on, either that or every bidder has no idea how to use eBay successfully.

 Each auction regularly jumps from .99 to $6-$10 with less than 24 hours remaining, with multiple bids being placed by the same bidder (who seems to be outbidding themselves?). 

 It's a little strange. I'm going to see what happens in the next few hours with the ones I have my eye on.


----------



## FallenAngel

Hmm... I'm sure it was brought up before, but that's a Sijosae MHHA v3.0 (Multi-Hybrid Headphone Amp). As far as I know, Sijosae is in Korea, not China, guess somebody else building them with his design.


----------



## FraGGleR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, after watching a number of these auctions progress for a couple days, I am beginning to suspect that some level of shill bidding is going on, either that or every bidder has no idea how to use eBay successfully.

 Each auction regularly jumps from .99 to $6-$10 with less than 24 hours remaining, with multiple bids being placed by the same bidder (who seems to be outbidding themselves?). 

 It's a little strange. I'm going to see what happens in the next few hours with the ones I have my eye on._

 

Hmm, that would stink if I was in a bidding war with the owner...

 Then again, I think a winning bid of $46+12 shipping isn't terrible, especially if boomy is favorably comparing the SQ to a $400 EF1. 

 Can't wait to play with it, especially once I learn how to solder. I get a Tim Taylor urge when I think about how simple it would be to add bigger! better! components for pretty cheap.


----------



## kb1gra

I have a couple waiting to be sniped, but I'm watching the bid history...it's fairly strange how the pattern goes, so I'm beginning to wonder if some of the bidders just don't understand eBay, and are upping their own bids. 

 I am hoping to win one in the $35 range. Should be possible with patience.

 I have some tubes that will fit this, so that will be fun to mess around with.


----------



## FraGGleR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a couple waiting to be sniped, but I'm watching the bid history...it's fairly strange how the pattern goes, so I'm beginning to wonder if some of the bidders just don't understand eBay, and are upping their own bids. 

 I am hoping to win one in the $35 range. Should be possible with patience.

 I have some tubes that will fit this, so that will be fun to mess around with._

 

Hope you get one so I can hear your impressions of it with your DT990's.


----------



## kb1gra

I won one of these for $39 + ship (bravo version) so we'll see what happens when it finally gets here. Not an exemplary record for arrivals from China over here.


----------



## Megaclocker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won one of these for $39 + ship (bravo version) so we'll see what happens when it finally gets here. Not an exemplary record for arrivals from China over here._

 

I just won a bravo one at 37 + 16$ too.

 I will do a mini-review to the best of my knowledge has soon has I receive it. I use Grado Sr-80.


----------



## FraGGleR

Darn it, I feel ripped off at $46 plus shipping now. Oh well. BTW, has anyone looked at sijosae's gallery? He has a modification of this tube hybrid in an altoids can! The guy is amazing!


----------



## sohels

I'm having a strange problem with my Indeed amp:

 Macbook Air -> Audioengine 5 = No hiss
 iPhone 3GS -> Indeed amp -> Audioengine 5 = No hiss
 Macbook Air -> Indeed amp -> Audioengine 5 = high pitched hiss

 Does anyone know why this might be?


----------



## kb1gra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Darn it, I feel ripped off at $46 plus shipping now. Oh well. BTW, has anyone looked at sijosae's gallery? He has a modification of this tube hybrid in an altoids can! The guy is amazing!_

 

Want.

 That is all.

 You're probably getting hiss in the third combination because you're double amping the signal, the A5 are internally amplified. Not sure why your iPhone wouldn't do the same thing, are you going LOD or headphone jack?


----------



## Megaclocker

Try to move it to another place. Not close to the computer or a wireless signal.
 Just put a metal box on it to be sure it is not some sort of interference.


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure why your iPhone wouldn't do the same thing, are you going LOD or headphone jack?_

 

Headphone out.


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Megaclocker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try to move it to another place. Not close to the computer or a wireless signal.
 Just put a metal box on it to be sure it is not some sort of interference._

 

All three arrangements were done in the exact same place using the same cables - interference would produce hiss in all three, no?


----------



## sohels

The hiss goes away when I disconnect my external display, which is strange since connecting the speakers directly to the laptop even with the display connected does not produce hiss.

 Anyway, the amp seems to be fine.


----------



## Megaclocker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sohels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The hiss goes away when I disconnect my external display, which is strange since connecting the speakers directly to the laptop even with the display connected does not produce hiss.

 Anyway, the amp seems to be fine._

 

I heard that somewhere can't explain it.

 Are the amp and the display pluged in the same wall socket ?
 Maybe some wireless waves disturb the tube (from the amp) ?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... I'm sure it was brought up before, but that's a Sijosae MHHA v3.0 (Multi-Hybrid Headphone Amp). As far as I know, Sijosae is in Korea, not China, guess somebody else building them with his design._

 

The Indeed listing on eBay states:
 D/ We are the original designer; it sell hundreds and 100% positive feedback in history!

 Variation on a theme, perhaps? Without analyzing the schematics, who knows?


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait to play with it, especially once I learn how to solder. I get a Tim Taylor urge when I think about how simple it would be to add bigger! better! components for pretty cheap._

 

Sorry if this has been covered, but what components would you replace, and what would be the expected change in sound quality?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Darn it, I feel ripped off at $46 plus shipping now. Oh well._

 

From 25 to 50+... Weekends are not the best apparent time to bid for one. My Indeed was 42. I may have that much invested in old tubes before it gets here... I can't wait to experiment with it.


----------



## boomy3555

I have four total so far. Two running as dual mono in my portable briefcase DIY rig, one in my Ipod dock fake book desktop, and one in a Craftsman toolbag for that "Man bag" portable look. They are great fun but nothing to write home about. The EF-2 pretty much smokes the Indeed and the Maverick has more power than both the Indeed and EF-2. put together. Great for DIY fun but that's about it. Good to see them going cheaper now. I paid 69.00 plus shipping back when they first appeared on the scene.


----------



## CPL593H

I ordered a Bravo. What puzzles me is how you get a 6DJ8/6922/7308/6N11 tube to run on 24 volts DC. I must be misunderstanding something.


----------



## boomy3555

IIRC, the signals are run through the multiple diodes (Triodes) of the tube.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have four total so far. Two running as dual mono in my portable briefcase DIY rig, one in my Ipod dock fake book desktop, and one in a Craftsman toolbag for that "Man bag" portable look. They are great fun but nothing to write home about. The EF-2 pretty much smokes the Indeed and the Maverick has more power than both the Indeed and EF-2. put together. Great for DIY fun but that's about it. Good to see them going cheaper now. I paid 69.00 plus shipping back when they first appeared on the scene._

 

Rolled any tubes?


----------



## boomy3555

The Jan Sylvania 7308's are about the only ones better than the stock.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Jan Sylvania 7308's are about the only ones better than the stock._

 

What other tubes have you tried?


----------



## boomy3555

I'll have to get back on that. I have to look in my tube box and check my list. but I remember the russian tubes were gritty and bright (Electroharmonix 6922, regular and gold pin)


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EF-2 pretty much smokes the Indeed and the Maverick has more power than both the Indeed and EF-2. put together._

 

Can you elaborate on this three-way comparison? I'm looking to upgrade from my Indeed amp.


----------



## boomy3555

The EF2 is a higher quality Tube/SS hybrid so you get the flavour of the tubes but then some power from the soldid state section. The EF2 also uses two 6 pin tubes (Ihave Mullards in thier now) and are easier to find thatn the Indeed 6922/7308's. The Maverick is different in that it is amuch more powerful Solid state and Tube Preamp side by side in the same unit. the Headphone out of the Maverick does not go through the tube section,rather the tube section is dedicated to the tube pre-outs. Aslo bot the EF2 and the Mav have onboard DACs. IMHO the DACs ageneraly OK but nothing High end. I bit better than my Realtech onboard soundcard, but not by much. 
 I have the Indeeds to play around with but won't turn to them for any future amp projects. The Tube/Hybrids with DAC are the way for me now as I like the flavour of the tubes but have low impedence cans which straight tube amps don't like much. (They don't like running on low power) Your Senns will need more power than anything less than the Maverick,Zero, or Compass can give them.


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Maverick is different in that it is amuch more powerful Solid state and Tube Preamp side by side in the same unit. the Headphone out of the Maverick does not go through the tube section,rather the tube section is dedicated to the tube pre-outs._

 

Have you tried this on the Maverick:
 Computer->USB->Tube pre-out->Analog audio in->Headphone out->Headphones

 ie utilizing the USB DAC, tube buffer as well as the headphone out. Is this possible?


----------



## boomy3555

Yes. I ran standard and tube pre-out from the Mav to the analog RCA input of the EF2 and found no difference from the EF2 alone save a bit more volume. The tube in the maverick did open up a bit after some burn in but still not worth using both over just the EF2


----------



## boomy3555

Ultimately this would be my recommendation for your next step, given the Senns in your sig.

 100-200 USD Zero Dac/Amp w/ HDAM upgrade
 200-400 USD Audio GD Compass with the same HDAM upgrades to siut you taste.

 If you want tubes, I think you would require something with a bit of power

 Darkvoice 336 is the first that comes to mind


----------



## Judge Buff

Boomy, I just got to tell you that the picture of that DIY with a handle reminds me of something that the Navy made me carry around in the early 1980's. Bet yours sounds better though... mine just beeped and booped.


----------



## boomy3555

I got a 20.00 alluminum breifcase tool case from HomeDepot and just started adding Stuff. It has a 4 Pin Mini xlr balanced between the two amps and a nothe Mini xlr with 160 ohms of resitance for my IEMs. The two Mono 6.3's are 0 ohms. The wood is just pieces of oak left over from when I made some kitchen cabinets. The usb Dac/Midi is an Alesis io2 mini studio. running balanced into the dual mono Indeed amps. Not true balanced as the grounds are common at the power source.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EF2 is a higher quality Tube/SS hybrid so you get the flavour of the tubes but then some power from the soldid state section. The EF2 also uses two 6 pin tubes (Ihave Mullards in thier now) and are easier to find thatn the Indeed 6922/7308's._

 


 It's pretty hard to argue that the 6AK5 and its equivalents are easier to find than the 6922/6DJ8 and its equivalents. Cheaper, for sure, but not easier to find.

 Just sayin'.


----------



## boomy3555

I should clarify that I have found plenty or cheap 6922's but not many higher end Mullards or Telle's in that group. The only reason I got some nice Jan Sylvania 7308's was I traded a tube tester for some. but Skylab is the tube guy so I must default to his judgement.


----------



## Skylab

One nice Mullard equivalent to the 6922 is the CV2492. But they can be expensive. And there are also lots of Amperex variants. Telefunken certainly had lots as well - ECC88 and E88CC, and some other variants.

 But again, they do tend to be pricey.


----------



## FraGGleR

I finally got mine today, and right out of the box it sounded bloated on the bottom end, muddy and thin in the middle and a little harsh in the highs. A couple hours later, it still doesn't sound right for electronic, but I listened to some Yo Yo Ma, and holy kerfuffel it sounded good. For the first time (not like I have listened to a lot), something I tried made a significant, audible, and enjoyable change. I got the soundstage I have been looking for. On my E2C's! A noticeable spaciousness that was just perfect for a Yo Yo Ma solo. I can't wait to see how this changes after a couple more days of burn in. I may not even use the Jan Sylvania I got from Boomy if I am satisfied with the stock tube. I could use the extra scratch to buy more cable supplies.

 To think, I was on the verge of putting this up for sale before I had received it. That one Yo Yo Ma solo has convinced me that I have to keep it now. I can't wait to try it with my SRH840's when I get home.


----------



## boomy3555

Cheers,
 Give the stock tube a good burning in and then change to the JAN Sylvania just for the heck of it. The JAN Sylvania 7308's are still what I have in the Indeeds I have around.


----------



## ashtray9

I'm not looking to ignite anything, but what exactly is "burning-in" with this amp? Is the stock Chinese tube extremely new and needs to settle?

 One other question for the owners of this amp that also have experience with full fledged tube amps:

 How does this amp compare to all the rest in terms of diminishing returns? For example, would this thing be comparable to the Grado SR60 in terms of raw performance for the price? Does this little guy deliver 80% of a thousand dollar tube amp?


----------



## FraGGleR

Yes, the tube is new and needs to settle in. I don't think that tubes needing burn in is even debated much anymore. If you want a great debate (holy war) go check out threads discussing whether super duper cables make a difference.

 Not having heard anything better than what is in my signature, I am still floored by how this little (tiny) guy has allowed me to enjoy my music, particularly my classical and jazz. I don't think any $50 amp will give you 80% of a $1000 amp (you weren't serious were you), but it certainly is an outstanding value to the point that unless I upgraded to headphones that simply couldn't be powered by this amp, I would feel no need to get anything better. But I am strictly budget fi.


----------



## boomy3555

Although this little guy can never compete with the big boys, It's a great little starter amp fo new "Tubies". There is such a big difference between solid state and tubes that I and others were shocked by the quality and richness of the SQ. partialy because it was our first tube amp period. ( I started buying these and the EF1 at the same time so I had a slightly better amp in the EF2 to a and b with)


----------



## ttan98

I suppose many headphone users here buy this small and compact headphone amplifier is because it is well priced(cheap for what it can do) and also users can tube roll the 6N1 tube with 6DJ8 or 6922.

 I thought what I can do is to replace the input tube with a solid state ie FET(costs less than 50 cents each) so that

 1. there no need to tube roll and
 2. listen whether there are any differences between tube and FET sound.

 I bought 2 units and pull one apart and the the other remains unchanged. I modified one unit in incorporate a low noise input FET and output MOSFET remains the same. I was able to compare the 2 units. What are the differences you want to ask?

 There are more similarities than differences.
 Similarities
 ----------
 a. The sound stage remains unchanged, both can generate a large soundstage.
 b. Both are able to drive low load headphones and they are Class A amp.
 c. Only subtle differences in both units, see below
 d. Distortion(THD) of both units are at similar level lying between 
 0.2 to 0.5% @ 1V rms output.

 BTW most Cmoy amp cannot drive low load headphones and cannot generate large sound stage

 Differences
 -----------
 a. FET sounds a little cleaner and more distinct in the sound reproduction whereas the tube sounds a little "tubey" and smoother.
 b. FET sounds a little more dynamic than the tube.

 According to my ears there are very little differences between the 2 units, I believe the reasons being both have similar distortion levels and both units belong to a same configuration/circuit topology.

 If those who can perform changes to this amp, I like to suggest besides changing components is put a large heatsink to the MOSFETs and current regulator. The current heatsinks are "too small" this my next project.

 Cheers enjoy this amp.


----------



## Judge Buff

Anyone else received their little bundle of joy yet? Mine left HK yesterday, so I have a couple of weeks to go. Roll some tubes y'all!

 My first tube will either be Phillips JAN 6922 or a German RCA 6922 (silver shield Siemens). Both NOS. I also have an orange label Amperex and a Philips Miniwatt en-route.


----------



## FraGGleR

Question for people more knowledgeable than me: I get some significant hiss when using the this little fellah with my 16ohm IEM's. Does anyone have any idea how strong a resistor I should use to reduce the hiss? It isn't horrible, especially once the music starts, but I have the DIY bug and want to make a resistance adapter.


----------



## boomy3555

I often end up using a resistor so I can up the source input. This helps with the low volume hiss. I use a Ultimate Ears 50 ohm inline resistor but when I made up my breifcase toolbox I put 160 ohms of resistance to one of my 4 pin mini-XLR jacks. I have only used cheap Ratshack resitors, but I hear that "Mills" resistors are excelent for making DIY attenuators.


----------



## ashtray9

Ok! Got my Bravo today! WOW! I am extremely happy with this little amp. I've been running FLAC files from my laptop to a bass guitar headphone amplifier by utilizing the aux input.

 First thing I noticed upon firing up the Bravo was that the soundstage opened up significantly. Sounds now come from many different areas in 3D space, and everything is more coherent and "together". Next was the detail. Being a bassist the first thing I noticed was that I could easily hear the tone of the bass being used. Everything has texture! I had no idea this amp would make such a big difference.

 Also, I have not heard the sound of the stock chinese tube. I had a JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 waiting and I popped that in as soon as the Bravo was unpacked.

 Funny. I am *sure* that much more expensive amps will not provide another huge leap in sound quality like I have just experienced. I am very content knowing that I can have outstanding quality from this extremely affordable amp.

 Oh, I am running Senn HD600's. Also, for what it's worth, the heat sinks on this guy became so hot so fast I found it comical. Ahhhh, class A!

 This amp is highly recommended. You can always do better for more dough, but the Bravo is so much more than adequate.


----------



## FraGGleR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I often end up using a resistor so I can up the source input. This helps with the low volume hiss. I use a Ultimate Ears 50 ohm inline resistor but when I made up my breifcase toolbox I put 160 ohms of resistance to one of my 4 pin mini-XLR jacks. I have only used cheap Ratshack resitors, but I hear that "Mills" resistors are excelent for making DIY attenuators._

 

Thanks boomy! I will I try a couple in the 50-100 range.


----------



## sohels

I just received a JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 which I purchased on Skylab's recommendation and I must say the difference over the stock tube is not subtle. The most obvious difference is that the highs have opened up and there is better clarity and definition across the spectrum. Also, the stock tube had a slight channel imbalance which has now been corrected. Very nice upgrade for $15.


----------



## boomy3555

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suppose many headphone users here buy this small and compact headphone amplifier is because it is well priced(cheap for what it can do) and also users can tube roll the 6N1 tube with 6DJ8 or 6922.

 I thought what I can do is to replace the input tube with a solid state ie FET(costs less than 50 cents each) so that

*[size=medium]1. there no need to tube roll[/size]* and
 2. listen whether there are any differences between tube and FET sound.

 I bought 2 units and pull one apart and the the other remains unchanged. I modified one unit in incorporate a low noise input FET and output MOSFET remains the same. I was able to compare the 2 units. What are the differences you want to ask?

 There are more similarities than differences.
 Similarities
 ----------
 a. The sound stage remains unchanged, both can generate a large soundstage.
 b. Both are able to drive low load headphones and they are Class A amp.
 c. Only subtle differences in both units, see below
 d. Distortion(THD) of both units are at similar level lying between 
 0.2 to 0.5% @ 1V rms output.

 BTW most Cmoy amp cannot drive low load headphones and cannot generate large sound stage

 Differences
 -----------
 a. FET sounds a little cleaner and more distinct in the sound reproduction whereas the tube sounds a little "tubey" and smoother.
 b. FET sounds a little more dynamic than the tube.

 According to my ears there are very little differences between the 2 units, I believe the reasons being both have similar distortion levels and both units belong to a same configuration/circuit topology.

 If those who can perform changes to this amp, I like to suggest besides changing components is put a large heatsink to the MOSFETs and current regulator. The current heatsinks are "too small" this my next project.

 Cheers enjoy this amp._

 


 And what would be the fun in that?


----------



## Megaclocker

I just received mine (bravo model). It definately work very well. My grado seems smoother. I will listen to the amp a bit more before making a final judgement.

 The only little problem I've found with the amp is that when it become hot (2 black heatsink) it produce a slight hiss sound. I've put the amp close to one of my computer exaust fan and now everything is fine.

 The amp is very powerfull, will probably blow my grado if I put it at 100%


----------



## ttan98

Boomy3555,

 Fun is fairly subjective, to you maybe tube rolling is fun but I have done this long time ago and not really interested now. Now I am more interested in whether there is a big difference in the sound reproduction between FET and tube(*) as input amplifier. I think I have achieve this. This is fun to me. To each its own. Have your own fun.

 Cheers.

 * The tube in the position implemented by Indeed is not optimal because the anode voltage is too low, it will work but the sound is less than optimal, it could explain why it is less dynamic than FET. Usually the anode voltage for 6922 is about 80-90Vdc not 16Vdc.


----------



## Crookshank

Whats the best imput, RCA or mini? Or its same?


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...the anode voltage is too low, it will work but the sound is less than optimal, it could explain why it is less dynamic than FET. Usually the anode voltage for 6922 is about 80-90Vdc not 16Vdc._

 

I was under the assumption some mini step-up transformer was being used on the board. Can tubes really operate at 16vdc?


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ashtray9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was under the assumption some mini step-up transformer was being used on the board. Can tubes really operate at 16vdc?_

 

It uses a switching power supply which gives 24V output to the amp., after a voltage drop about 8V across a transistor, to reach the tube's anode of about 16V. On some units it maybe more less 1~2V. You can adjust it by turning the pot near the tube, if you are not sure better not touch it.

 I have the circuit diagram if you are interested.


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It uses a switching power supply which gives 24V output to the amp., after a voltage drop about 8V across a transistor, to reach the tube's anode of about 16V. On some units it maybe more less 1~2V. You can adjust it by turning the pot near the tube, if you are not sure better not touch it._

 

Thanks for the good info. So as to the point of the two pots on the board... I am guessing wildly unbalanced triodes would need to have the voltage adjusted. If running a good tube could I max those pots? What can go wrong?

 I apologize for all the questions, tubes are still a new frontier on my end.


----------



## ttan98

By tweaking the pot will not damage the amp, it will make the heatsink esp the aluminium one even hotter if you make the anode voltage higher eg. 20V. 

 Do you have a multimeter if you do, I will guide you to measure the anode voltage.


----------



## mrB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sohels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received a JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 which I purchased on Skylab's recommendation and I must say the difference over the stock tube is not subtle. The most obvious difference is that the highs have opened up and there is better clarity and definition across the spectrum. Also, the stock tube had a slight channel imbalance which has now been corrected. Very nice upgrade for $15._

 

I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest and have noted down a number of tubes that could be swapped for the stock 6N11. Among them are: Jan Sylvania 6DJ8 and 7308, Jan GE 5670W, Mullard CV 2492, Telefunken ECC88/E88CC, ???? 6922. It seems there is considerable advantage in trying a replacement tube. Can anyone describe the nature of the improvement for each of these tubes individually and summarize by pointing out the best value for money? Does each manufacturer have his own code number for the tube, or can many manufacturers make a 6922 for instance? I intend to use the amp with my ER-4Ps, but will consider getting a P to S adapter if warranted (another topic). Sennheiser 650s are on my Xmas shopping list. Will they be a good match with this amp? Maybe with a particular tube in it?

 A lot of questions .... I'm a newbie who's just bought an Indeed on eBay. They have a "Buy It Now" listing going now for $49.99 plus shipping, for those who (like me) don't have the patience to wait out an auction. Ebay item #250530070834

 I'm in Germany at the moment. I guess I'll be able to find a recommended tube here.

 Happy to take guidance from those of you with experience with this amp and/or the phones I mentioned. Cheers!


----------



## boomy3555

I have run the Russian 6922/E88cc's and found them harsh and uninteresting. I got some Jan Slyvania 7308's which are now what I keep in the four indeeds I have. I was DIYing with these amps and pulling them apart and soldering them here and there so I never invested in the big names like Mullard of Telle. The best way I found is to simply type in all of the numbers I find here into the google or eBay search. Your numbers will hit regardless of the brand name and will also tag the listing with other supposedly compatable tubes.
 I had HD650's when I started using these amps and the Indeeds are not really strong enough to drive them well. IMHO of course. The 650's are quite power hungry and although they love tubes, they really need some powerful amp to get the best from them.


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sennheiser 650s are on my Xmas shopping list. Will they be a good match with this amp? Maybe with a particular tube in it?

 A lot of questions .... I'm a newbie who's just bought an Indeed on eBay. They have a "Buy It Now" listing going now for $49.99 plus shipping, for those who (like me) don't have the patience to wait out an auction. Ebay item #250530070834_

 

Darn! I paid $79.99 plus shipping for a Buy It Now. Looks like you got a better deal.

 I am using my Indeed amp with HD650 but I suspect mine are the older version. The only tubes I've tried are the JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 and the stock Chinese tube - the former is definitely a better match for the HD650 and well worth the extra $15 I paid for it.

 I haven't tried the HD650 with any other amps, but I'm quite happy with the sound of this combination. I was looking to upgrade my amp but the tube change has made a nice difference and I will probably postpone a new purchase.


----------



## Megaclocker

I will probably order some tubes next week. Sylvania and maybe an Amperex.

 Stock tube seems very adequate, at least for my headphones. But I would like to try other and have at least a few backup tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 After a few hours of listening, the only subtle difference I can spot is an slightly improved soundstage and a bit smoother sound.


----------



## mrB

Maaaaaan! What am I getting in to here? Following Boomy's advice I started looking around and came upon this site: 6DJ8 Tubes From Brent Jessee Recording
 There's a lot to digest there for a newbie, but it gives a lot of useful background for informed decision-making. The 7308s seem to be worth aiming for.

 What did you pay for yours Boomy?


----------



## boomy3555

My 7308's were a trade from another Head-fi'er that I gave a Tube Tester to.


----------



## Megaclocker

Just bought a Sylvania too. I will let you know how it goes


----------



## Judge Buff

I have a small collection of tubes waiting, or in route, to roll into my Indeed that is on its way: a Philips Jan 6922, an RCA 6922 (Siemens silver shield), a Mullard ECC88/01, a Philips Miniwatt PCC88, a Telefunken PCC88, a Siemens PCC88, and a Heerlen Amperex 6dj8. I'll try to get some pics posted...

 There are some very good eBay auctions at the UK and German sites. Caveat Emptor, though. There are some real obvious NEW tubes being pushed as NOS out there. But there are some bargains too: the Tele and Siemens PCCs were won at a Euro each plus shipping (<$15 total), and the Mullard was less than $20 shipped. 

 Even if they suck big time, I can show them off with the old Zippo lighters and other curios in my study. There will be other amps down the road, too... besides Christmas and Hanukkah are coming. Head-fi stocking stuffers?


----------



## Megaclocker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a small collection of tubes waiting, or in route, to roll into my Indeed that is on its way: a Philips Jan 6922, an RCA 6922 (Siemens silver shield), a Mullard ECC88/01, a Philips Miniwatt PCC88, a Telefunken PCC88, a Siemens PCC88, and a Heerlen Amperex 6dj8. I'll try to get some pics posted...

 There are some very good eBay auctions at the UK and German sites. Caveat Emptor, though. There are some real obvious NEW tubes being pushed as NOS out there. But there are some bargains too: the Tele and Siemens PCCs were won at a Euro each plus shipping (<$15 total), and the Mullard was less than $20 shipped. 

 Even if they suck big time, I can show them off with the old Zippo lighters and other curios in my study. There will be other amps down the road, too... besides Christmas and Hanukkah are coming. Head-fi stocking stuffers?_

 

Keep us updated about which one you like best


----------



## boomy3555

A Small Collection ??


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A Small Collection ??_

 

Well... they are miniature tubes. LOL 

 I tried to find some of the classic ones from the "expert" sites. I'm proud of the Siemens RCA, the Mullard and the Tele already, whether they sound good in the hybrid or not. The RCA is my most expensive... and it was only $20.

 I'm getting antsy over the amp, as it left HK on the 11th. I figure another week til it arrives: just in time for Thanksgiving holidays. Time off to play!


----------



## FraGGleR

I am really digging the stock tube with my SRH840's and other budget phones. Probably have 50+ hours on it at this point. I don't know if I noticed a whole lot of change other than a slight smoothing out of the sound. Anyone know how long it takes to burn in tubes like these? I want to make sure this is burned in fully before testing out the 7308 that I bought from Boomy. For someone who uses efficient headphones and doesn't anticipate buying any power hogs anytime soon, this has been an unreal investment. For a little under $60 delivered it is a superstar for me. Anyone know what the equivalent USB dac might be? Sub $75 superstar?


----------



## ashtray9

The AMB y1 seems like the cheapest hi-end DAC. I'm very happy with mine and can only imagine replacing it when (if ever) I've put about a grand into the other components.


----------



## weibby

found the OEM -
MHHA 6N11 µç×Ó¹Ü¶ú·Å ¶ú»ú·Å´óÆ÷ Headphone AMP-Ó°ÒôµçÆ÷ - ÌÔ±¦Íø

 248 yuan = 36 USD but without the upgraded caps.


----------



## weibby

seems like the OEM is 248 yuan on the chinese site tabao.


----------



## boomy3555

I just bought a used GoVibe in the for sale forums that I want to try out as a DAC with the Indeed. Although the one thing I like about the Indeed as well as other tubes is the "Flavour". The flavour of the Realteck soundcard on my netbook is not bad. so bypassing it with a seperate DAC make flatten the SQ a bit. Oh Well. Tasting is what is the most fun.


----------



## mmayer167

just thought i post another opinion on the 7308 vs the original 6N11 in the Indeed amp. I got my 7308 from boomy as well. I think ive got enough settle time on both of the tubes to make an assessment. Im running FLAC files off of a rockboxed ipod with a line out dock to the amp. For what its worth all the sessions were through the sweetcome cabled k240s... to the tubes! the 6N11 does sound very nice and i was quite happy with it until i settled in the 7308. As most people post, the 7308 opens up the stage and clears/smooths out the highs. I would agree, but i would rather listen to the 6n11 if r&b/pop is what im in the mood for. Mainly because i found the bit veiled uppers made beat oriented music more enjoyable. Any classical or acoustic music really benefits from the 7308 as you could imagine. The best i can come up with for this comparison is its like removing the foam between your ears and the driver found on most cans. Overall the 7308 is a better tube, but if you are on the edge and are happy with your 6N11 just keep it and put the money towards cables which IMO are a better investment and even better find lossless files such as FLACs. (take with a grain of salt, this is coming from a tubie noobie...) happy listening


----------



## Judge Buff

I wish someone could compare the Indeed with the Bravo...


----------



## aeewee

It seems like theres 2 different versions for sale for the same price. 
 Original: Valve Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Amplifier Indeed on eBay.ca (item 290365s001992 end time 29-Nov-09 11:21:45 EST)
 New: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp on eBay.ca (item 260495668768 end time 22-Nov-09 11:37:40 EST)
 I'm planning on getting the newer version but has anyone tried it yet?


----------



## wushuliu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aeewee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems like theres 2 different versions for sale for the same price. 
 Original: Valve Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Amplifier Indeed on eBay.ca (item 290365s001992 end time 29-Nov-09 11:21:45 EST)
 New: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp on eBay.ca (item 260495668768 end time 22-Nov-09 11:37:40 EST)
 I'm planning on getting the newer version but has anyone tried it yet?_

 

Two different vendors. The Indeed claims that other versions (Bravo) copy their design.


----------



## lecky

It looks obvious that both brands get their amps from the same factory, but with some differences in spec, I believe both claim to be the originators of the design, so it's a moot point.
 I have the newer Bravo version and at least I can say that the upgraded RCA connectors, which had been an issue of concern on their earlier version (same as Indeed?) is pretty solid and confidence inspiring, and my unit has no interference noise whatsoever regardless of where I put it in relation to computers and so on.


----------



## wushuliu

What's the break-in time for these tubes?


----------



## TheBigCW

Hey there folks. Looking at picking up this little bad boy, as it's very affordable and very attractive. I'm getting a pair of K601s and I don't want to go the pure tube route (i.e. little dot) but I like the hybrids. I've heard some conflicting opinions in this thread on power. Some have said it's ran their HD600s, 650s, etc. fine, other say it doesn't have enough power. Does anyone know if this will do an adequate job of powering the AKG K601s? Thanks a ton, folks!


----------



## weibby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wushuliu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Two different vendors. The Indeed claims that other versions (Bravo) copy their design._

 

MHHA 6N11 µç×Ó¹Ü¶ú·Å ¶ú»ú·Å´óÆ÷ Headphone AMP-Ó°ÒôµçÆ÷ - ÌÔ±¦Íø

 Lol then this is the ripoff from the two?


----------



## blippster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheBigCW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey there folks. Looking at picking up this little bad boy, as it's very affordable and very attractive. I'm getting a pair of K601s and I don't want to go the pure tube route (i.e. little dot) but I like the hybrids. I've heard some conflicting opinions in this thread on power. Some have said it's ran their HD600s, 650s, etc. fine, other say it doesn't have enough power. Does anyone know if this will do an adequate job of powering the AKG K601s? Thanks a ton, folks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Had a chance to try it (albeit the Bravo) with a pair of the 701s yesterday. It certainly had more than enough power to drive the AKGs to deafening volumes, and didn't sound too bad. It's not as detailed as you might like, but it's a decent starter amp.


----------



## TheBigCW

Has anyone seen this little buffer amp that popped up on their ebay listings? http://cgi.ebay.com/Class-A-Valve-Bu...item3a54afd5af

 It has a very similar design to the Hybrid amp they've been selling, except this one is rectangular.


----------



## ashtray9

Ok, so I removed the blue and red LEDs from the board and in doing so I managed to damage part of a copper "raceway" on the board. I jumpered the damaged copper with some stranded wire and now the unit is operational. The sound has changed though. First and most obvious difference is that the gain had nearly been cut in half. Second is that the amp now sounds brighter and more detailed at the cost of less 'big warmth'.

 Crazy, eh? The gain problem is I suspect directly related to the change in sound. Incredibly, this thing still has enough juice to power the HD600's to very loud levels. I've tried messing with the yellow pots but I have no multimeter and have only succeeded in altering the gain in minimal amounts. 

 Any info in restoring the amp to former SQ would be appreciated. Here's a pic.


----------



## Judge Buff

I think I've made a grave mistake. 

 You see, I picked-up my Indeed Hybrid at the post office early this am and I have been experimenting with only 4 of my tubes all day. I have 4 more in route, but I doubt that I'll ever listen to them barring a tubular disaster.

 Stock tube: "Decent" is a great descriptor. From separation to freq response to overall presentation, "decent" comes to mind. This is after only 3 hours of burn-in on the 6N11.

 NOS Mullard E88CC/01: 1 hour of burn-in produces very warm-sounding, great music. Everything is there, but there isn't any "preciseness' to it. If sound can be "too smooth" to show any real definition, this is it. I can see why Mullards are cherished as music tubes, but it's too dark for me. I may cook it for a day or two while I am at work to see if it changes any, but for now it's back in its 40 y/o box. My cMoyBB2.02 sounds similar, but cleaner.

 Amperex Holland orange & white label (no globe / used) 6dj8: No high end, no low end, but very clean mids. Sterile sound, but extremely clear. One for the display case, but it's kinda ugly, too. Probably awesome in old military radios.

 RCA 6922 (Made in Germany): My grave mistake. I don't think any other tube could ever sound this good. WIDE and spacious with incredible tight bass, sweet mids and crystalline highs. There is definition to every sound/note/effect. It makes my Zune sound like a stereo system from Patsy Cline to the Transformer soundtrack. I can see why these tubes go for ~$100. My 440s have been on my head for over 2 hours and I just hope that no one has burgled the house while I have sat here watching football and listening all afternoon. I don't know if it is a Siemens as I originally thought. The top has a large cross or X and there appears to be an *11* molded in the glass between the pins.Anybody got any idea of the maker? May be the best $20 I've spent in a long time...

 I can't wait to try it with the S4s, but I don't want to get up, yet.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ashtray9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, so I removed the blue and red LEDs from the board and in doing so I managed to damage part of a copper "raceway" on the board. I jumpered the damaged copper with some stranded wire and now the unit is operational. The sound has changed though. First and most obvious difference is that the gain had nearly been cut in half. Second is that the amp now sounds brighter and more detailed at the cost of less 'big warmth'.

 Crazy, eh? The gain problem is I suspect directly related to the change in sound. Incredibly, this thing still has enough juice to power the HD600's to very loud levels. I've tried messing with the yellow pots but I have no multimeter and have only succeeded in altering the gain in minimal amounts. 

 Any info in restoring the amp to former SQ would be appreciated. Here's a pic._

 

Maybe someone in the Bravo thread can help. Why'd you remove the leds? A dab of paint would have dimmed them a lot. The led in my BB202 is bright enough to use as a flashlight, so I put a piece of tape over it. Sometimes, low-tech answers are enough to fix whatever. That's why everybody owns duct tape...


----------



## TheBigCW

I think I've decided on this amp, the K601s, and a AMB y1 DAC. I think I'll give a full-fledged review of this baby when I get it.


----------



## ashtray9

Quick update:
 I've got the Bravo back to good health with some better soldering skills, but the amp still lacks a little of the more than ample gain it originally had. Anyway, this guy really changes it's character with those yellow pots. It seems the right pot changes the overall tube gain of the entire amp, whereas the left pot almost acts as a tone/loudness control. If anything I like the sound more after tweaking for a slightly hotter treble.

 Also, while the Bravo was under the weather I was constantly comparing it's SQ against plugging direct into the amb y1. I was very surprised by how little the sound changed. Direct from the DAC naturally sounded a bit more precise, but the Bravo was just a bit more veiled. The bass didn't even improve when using the amp + DAC. So much for all this 'night and day' business. I wish I had know just how exaggerated most people make their reviews.

 BTW, I'm sorry if this does not apply to the Indeed amp. I'm assuming they are identical.


----------



## boomy3555

Ashtray,
 I think you should buy another stock one and don't mess with it. You practicaly killed this guy and then when you brought it back to life you were surprised it didn't sound good ? Most people don't take thier amps apart and resurrect them before posting "Exaggerate Reviews"


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ashtray,
 I think you should buy another stock one and don't mess with it. You practicaly killed this guy and then when you brought it back to life you were surprised it didn't sound good ? Most people don't take thier amps apart and resurrect them before posting "Exaggerate Reviews"_

 

Uh oh. Almost got suckered into this one.


----------



## boomy3555

Granted, The stock amp with stock tubes is definitely nothig to write home about. It's not until you roll different tubes that the "Colour" and differences in tone and richness start to appear. Yes even the stock tube amp is a different SQ from a Solid State in most cases and here is where us beginners get to try our hand at "Tubing" for not much money.

 I've had all of my Indeeds in different degrees of dis-assembly and I botched a few solder joints on the panel as well so I know the Veil of which you speak. Once I got to that point it was into the drawer for parts for that one. I should have clarified that I have four of them that work,but I have another two in pieces as well.


----------



## ttan98

Ashtray9,

 You cannot just remove the red LED, it biases the transistor that supplies the current to the tube. You can reduce the current to the red Led so that it's colour is not so intrusive.


----------



## Judge Buff

It appears that I have a grounding problem in the headphone jack. I'm in communication with Peter about this. Ahhh, bat $h1+!


----------



## Solitary1

Well, I took the dive on the Bravo unit. $30 + $16 shipping. Since I have an X-Can v8, I have plenty of tubes to throw at it, Siemens & Halske 6DJ8's, Sylvania Jan 6DJ8's, Tesla ECC88's, Russian 6N23P's, Telefunken ECC88's, etc., etc. Gonna try this in my needledrop system, a Linn Axis w/ Nagoaka MP-110 cart and Graham Slee Gram Amp II SE with HD-650's. A Musical Paradise MP-301 is what will eventually be the amp in this setup, but this little sucker was too cute (and too cheap) to pass up.


----------



## Judge Buff

Just a question: Anyone had any real quality control problems with this amp?


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a question: Anyone had any real quality control problems with this amp?_

 

The headphone jack loses output if there's any slight movement and there is a perceptible hiss in the left channel.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sohels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The headphone jack loses output if there's any slight movement and there is a perceptible hiss in the left channel._

 

I thought that I had initially had a grounding problem with my headphone jack as I had the same crackling/stopping output problem based on moving the plug/cord/etc. It became apparent that it was only happening when I used the plug adapter from Indeed. My 440s came with their own screw-on adapter that I started using (after a day of searching for it) and the problem disappeared. I've thrown the Indeed adapter away, as even my IEMs' plugs would wiggle inside the adapter. Definitely a weak link there...

 I don't have a hiss, but I occasionally (intermittently, sporadically) get a very soft hum on the left. Comes and goes, and I wonder if it is due to the vagaries between using a cheap Chinese power adapter with 40-50 year old vacuum tubes.

 I posed the original question about QC because it seems that the Bravo amp thread is more active because of faulty/failing component issues. Since the amp design is the same, the difference in component brands is apparently the only real difference in the two amps.

 Does anyone know anything about the manufacturing side of these amps?


----------



## Nost

Hi all, first post.. so here goes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Just ordered this little curiosity as my quad 34 has no headphone output 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A couple of things struck me AFTER I pressed the bid button:

 1) The power/smoothing cap is a 2200uF whereas on the bravo it seems to be a 6800uF cap Would this make a big difference in terms of bass handling? In my mind, when one starts to "crank the bug*er up" would the 2200u cap be man enough?

 2) I spotted two trim pots on the PCB, resumably to set the bias. When valve swapping, do these need adjusment or would the bias cut-off be the same for most double triode valves of this family i.e. ecc88, e88cc, 6dj8, 6922 etc..

 Thanks in advance for all opinion and help


----------



## Nost

Oh, also, forgot to say...
 Would it be worth experimenting with a seperate cross-feed circuit or has this already been incorporated?
 Im judging (probably incorectly) that the leds are across both channels hence allow cross feed? this may explain the change in sound reported by another poster when the leds were removed and the circuit bridged, alowing more cross feed?

 Probably all wrong, im just eager to get this thing and have a propper look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks all


----------



## lecky

There's no crossfeed, there aren't many amps that include a crossfeed circuit, and those that do aren't nearly as inexpensive as the Indeed/Bravo. If you play files from your computer you can do crossfeed in software, otherwise you could DIY a crossfeed circuit - the Meier audio website gives some details of how to do this. I only use crossfeed sparingly and mainly only for old stereo jazz recordings.


----------



## Nost

Thanks Lecky, i had a little google and some quite interesting projects appeared. I might just have to try one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just wondering if there is any concensus on the rolling issue? my musical tastes are eclectic from zappa to meshugga to mozart.

 my setup is budget: dual 505-4 tt > quad 34 preamp > senn hd515. would i notice a great difference through valve swapping considering my setup?

 Thanks again all


----------



## lecky

The difference I got was not _very_ big but significant and absolutely worthwhile. Of course I have different kit than yours and different tubes will have different effects etc...


----------



## Nost

thanks,
 All of my kit was put into storage as i didnt have any room, thats why im going down the HP route. I'm waiting for my tt at the mo (fleebay). come to think of it im still waiting for the Indeed. I've ordered a replacement stylus as the one on the tt is prolly shot anyway...

 Once i get everything (before crimbo hopefully) i'll be able to properly think about which direction to take.


----------



## grokit

I've had my Indeed for about six months or so, just read through this thread though.

 I like mine a lot, but with my HD600s it gives me a headache, with two of my best, yet very different, sources. I think that:

 a) I need to upgrade from the stock HD600 cable to Cardas or whatever, and 
 b) I just ordered a NOS JAN-Sylvania 7308 tube to replace the "Peking" 9611

 So I'm looking forward to that, and that will be about for modding it as I stay away from circuit boards personally. I will solder wires and connectors, but... the attenuator project sounds good, anyways.

 Anyways, I want to share my QC issues; the main thing that I noticed is there is an overall "handle with care" to this thing, from the power up/down instructions (can't have any source volume going) to the connectors themselves, as you don't want to disturb this thing while it's in operation. 

 The one issue I have is that the 1/4" jack is very picky, as I cannot get both channels to work properly with my Neutrik-terminated Canare headphone extension cable; it works fine with my Senns and Grados directly though, and my Planet Waves extensions.

 And when it finds a permanent, non-stopgap home it will definitely get velcro'd to the surface it sits on, because this little amp is very light, and the Planet Waves connectors are quite heavy. The connectors like to tilt the amp off it's axis, making it stand on one edge, or threatening to scoot it off the table entirely


----------



## lecky

My sense of the Bravo with my HD580 (basically similar to HD600) is that the highs are a _bit_ harsh, the mids a bit lacking and the bass is fun but not beautifully controlled - in short these seem to be the things people ascribe to underpowering HD580/600s, and indeed when I use a more powerful amp the highs become smoother and prettier, the mids get their weight and the bass tightens up. So whilst my HD580s sound perfectly nice with the Bravo, it's not really allowing them to do what they can and should do.


----------



## Judge Buff

^ Time for you to roll some tubes, lecky.

 ^^ If that Sylvania Jan 7308 is a good tube, you should really enjoy the difference. My 1/4" adapter was the pits and I threw it away.

 My experience with the stock 6N11 is that it is really just mediocre. A nice A frame with a dimpled disk is *the way to go*.


----------



## gurusan

I just bought an Indeed for 40 usd + shipping. really excited to try it when it comes...seems like a little bargain.

 Has anyone tried modding it at all?


----------



## grokit

If you mean under-powering them to where they lose pacing because of the small SS/capacitor section, then maybe I see what you mean...

 But my HD600s are very loud by the time I get to 11am, and they sound extremely strident and forward to me. From what I have read in this thread, that is not unusual for the Indeed with the stock Chinese tube, and there are similar complaints regarding the stock HD600 cable.

 Perhaps the Indeed has a higher gain setting than the Bravo, that would make some sense; If your cans are underpowered and mine are overpowered, maybe we should look into auditioning each other's amps (but with the stock tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)

 It seems like the better the source, the more they hurt my head, so I am really looking forward to the tube roll and cable upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My sense of the Bravo with my HD580 (basically similar to HD600) is that the highs are a bit harsh, the mids a bit lacking and the bass is fun but not beautifully controlled - in short these seem to be the things people ascribe to underpowering HD580/600s, and indeed when I use a more powerful amp the highs become smoother and prettier, the mids get their weight and the bass tightens up. So whilst my HD580s sound perfectly nice with the Bravo, it's not really allowing them to do what they can and should do._


----------



## grokit

gurusan, check out the other 12 pages to this thread

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried modding it at all?_


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_gurusan, check out the other 12 pages to this thread_

 

I've read the whole thread with great interest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, people are only talking about tube rolling (which was a great help, will be getting a 6DJ8 tube for this amp). I was wondering if there would be any benefit in changing out the big capacitor for something larger? Why does the Bravo have a larger cap value in comparison with the Indeed?


----------



## lecky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Time for you to roll some tubes, lecky.

 ^^ If that Sylvania Jan 7308 is a good tube, you should really enjoy the difference. My 1/4" adapter was the pits and I threw it away.

 My experience with the stock 6N11 is that it is really just mediocre. A nice A frame with a dimpled disk is *the way to go*._

 

I'm not using the stock tube though - I'm using a Jan Sylvania 6DJ8, it sounds nice.

 The Bravo has more than enough gain to make the HD580s deafeningly loud, but this is not the same as power. I would not have thought that there is anything wrong with the way it drives these Senns if I hadn't heard them sounding better with a more powerful amp and connected the characteristics to the way people have described these cans when underpowered or well powered. To reiterate, the Bravo makes the HD580 sound very nice, but a more powerful amp will bring significantly more to the table.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not using the stock tube though - I'm using a Jan Sylvania 6DJ8, it sounds nice.

 The Bravo has more than enough gain to make the HD580s deafeningly loud, but this is not the same as power. I would not have thought that there is anything wrong with the way it drives these Senns if I hadn't heard them sounding better with a more powerful amp and connected the characteristics to the way people have described these cans when underpowered or well powered. To reiterate, the Bravo makes the HD580 sound very nice, but a more powerful amp will bring significantly more to the table._

 

I suss the situation, now, lecky. A more powerful amp probably will bring out more nuances for your phones. I wonder what differences between the Indeed and Bravo mean in this regard also, because individual component differences do have effects in the final product.

 For the Indeed, I reiterate that a dimpled-disk, Philips A frame is the tube of choice. If any of you can get your hands on one, either an ECC88 or a PCC88, regardless of the tube brand (my current choice of 3 is Mullard branded), it is the best I've heard hands down. The articulation of the sound is extremely precise and incredibly 3D, with slightly forward mids and range on both ends. Loud or soft, it is sooooo much better than any of my other tube types' SQ. 

 Zeck will be able to confirm or deny this for his hybrid, as I know he's got a couple of awesome tubes coming. One is a sweet Siemens and the other is "you guessed it," a Philips A frame. 

 I can't wait to hear his impressions.


----------



## Judge Buff

This vendor at eBay has a number of A Frame ECC88s in quads as BINs. Some are pretty expensive, some are decently priced. The getter type isn't specified anywhere as far as I can tell. At any extent, these are the most A Frame ECC88s I've seen in one place.

 And no, I'm not shilling for anyone, before some arse accuses me of such.

 The only reason that I am posting this is that after rolling about 13 different tubes into my Indeed, from a Mullard E88CC/01 (look up this tube!) through Teles and Siemens and 6922 Amperexes, the finest sounding tubes by far are A Frames with dimpled disks. One of these is a CV 5358 that I got out of the UK for .99 with two other A Frames for less than 10 pounds total including shipping. Incredible sounding tubes in this amp...


----------



## grokit

I thought I had also read about subbing out capacitors, installing attenuators, and bypassing something or other with mixed success.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read the whole thread with great interest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, people are only talking about tube rolling (which was a great help, will be getting a 6DJ8 tube for this amp). I was wondering if there would be any benefit in changing out the big capacitor for something larger? Why does the Bravo have a larger cap value in comparison with the Indeed?_


----------



## Nost

well, mine is through now and just burning in( with the orig valve), I couldnt resist playing with it and have realized:
 It has enormous gain... im only running hd 515's (50 Ohm) and they are on the loud side with the pot @ 8:00. this was via a tape out from my quad 34 pre-amp.

 Judge Buff? is there another valve with the same pin arrangement with a lower output? or perhaps add some attenuation?

 I cant help feeling that im not going to get a whole lot of any valves "character" running at such low levels...

 Any thoughts?

 And.... if anyone has a spare A-frame, dimpled getter valve PM me and we'll have a chat


----------



## grokit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, mine is through now and just burning in( with the orig valve), I couldnt resist playing with it and have realized:
 It has enormous gain... im only running hd 515's (50 Ohm) and they are on the loud side with the pot @ 8:00. this was via a tape out from my quad 34 pre-amp.

 Judge Buff? is there another valve with the same pin arrangement with a lower output? or perhaps add some attenuation?

 I cant help feeling that im not going to get a whole lot of any valves "character" running at such low levels...

 Any thoughts?

 And.... if anyone has a spare A-frame, dimpled getter valve PM me and we'll have a chat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I would also be interested in attenuating the gain ion my Indeed Hybrid, but have never attempted circuitry modding. I _can _solder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have a NOS tube en route; does the burn-in process need to start over when the tube is rolled into usage for the first time?


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a NOS tube en route; does the burn-in process need to start over when the tube is rolled into usage for the first time?_

 

Yep, new tube/valve = fresh burn in process.

 I'd like to be able to turn the pot to about 11-12 o'clock. not sure wether to attenuate the input or output.

 If i attenuate the input, i assume the valve wouid still not be driven very hard. so the better option maybe, would be to attenuate the output making my cans harder to drive. is this "sound" thinking or not? anyone want to add their two pence/cents?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, mine is through now and just burning in( with the orig valve), I couldnt resist playing with it and have realized:
 It has enormous gain... im only running hd 515's (50 Ohm) and they are on the loud side with the pot @ 8:00. this was via a tape out from my quad 34 pre-amp.

 Judge Buff? is there another valve with the same pin arrangement with a lower output? or perhaps add some attenuation?

 I cant help feeling that im not going to get a whole lot of any valves "character" running at such low levels...

 Any thoughts?

 And.... if anyone has a spare A-frame, dimpled getter valve PM me and we'll have a chat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's my experience that PCCs do not have the output strength of an ECC. The PCC is designed for ~7V while the ECC is designed for 6.3V (I think it's .3). Boomy is the mod man, but some other tweakers are surely doing some stuff. You may want to check out the Bravo thread, too.


----------



## i_djoel2000

hi all, im new here..^^

 i just ordered my indeed tube amp and will be shipped tomorrow, hopefully i dont regret buying this beautiful little amp..

 does anybody know in what level this little amp sounds? i mean, does the sound quality level let say..starving student millet hybrid or portable amp ibasso D2+ maybe?


----------



## Nost

It all depends on the source, and your kit. if your listning to mp3 from yer PC on a pair of Ross then you'll find the amp absolutley fine (although the it is a VERY high gain amp). if youve some 300-600 Ohm headphones, they will be better suited as they are harder to drive.

 My Senn HD515's (50Ohm (budjet but ok)) are quite over powered by this amp and i am in the process of devising an attenuator.

 Previous Posts will give you some idea of what valves/tubes are well suited for rolling.

 Unfortunately, your best best bet is to wait for the little thing to arrive, burn the valve or tube in (it's a class A so you dont need to apply a signal) just leave it on for a few hours. and then judge for yourself. it's a great little amp and you wont be dissapointed for your money.

 BTW, Welcome


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(*it's a class A so you dont need to apply a signal)* just leave it on for a few hours._

 

Is that true of all class A components? As I had music playing through it as I burned my Bravo in, but I didnt need to?


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It all depends on the source, and your kit. if your listning to mp3 from yer PC on a pair of Ross then you'll find the amp absolutley fine (although the it is a VERY high gain amp). if youve some 300-600 Ohm headphones, they will be better suited as they are harder to drive.

 My Senn HD515's (50Ohm (budjet but ok)) are quite over powered by this amp and i am in the process of devising an attenuator.

 Previous Posts will give you some idea of what valves/tubes are well suited for rolling.

 Unfortunately, your best best bet is to wait for the little thing to arrive, burn the valve or tube in (it's a class A so you dont need to apply a signal) just leave it on for a few hours. and then judge for yourself. it's a great little amp and you wont be dissapointed for your money.

 BTW, Welcome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

thanx Nost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 btw, i didnt exactly ask about rolling tube amp or tweaking this little amp. i simply asked how does the untweaked, unmodded indeed tube amp sound against D2 or student starving milet hybrid. i want to compare with millet hybrid cause i think the price range is about equal, and ibasso D2+ eventhough its more expensive i think maybe indeed sounds better. so i wanna ask anybody who had experienced trying one of those amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 however, thanx for your respond and warm welcome


----------



## nerd1949

A lot of tube rolling going on, but has anybody changed the output caps? My Indeed came with Elna RJJ's. Not exactly audio quality. I have some SILMICII's and Nichicon MUSE's lying around. It looks like a tight fit diameter wise, but might be possible, and I would have to find some taller posts to raise the top about 1/4 inch. Anybody tried this?


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nerd1949* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A lot of tube rolling going on, but has anybody changed the output caps? My Indeed came with Elna RJJ's. Not exactly audio quality. I have some SILMICII's and Nichicon MUSE's lying around. It looks like a tight fit diameter wise, but might be possible, and I would have to find some taller posts to raise the top about 1/4 inch. Anybody tried this?_

 

good idea..but i think you dont need to raise the top, just make a precise neat hole where the caps located, i think its behind the tube amp right?


----------



## nerd1949

No, not the power cap, the two 1000uf signal output caps. They are located near the edge of hte board and larger diameter ones for at least one of them would probably stick about 1/8 inch over the board and to the edge of the plexy, ruling out (I think) cutting a hole. I'd rather just raise it (or find some other, smaller, decent caps).


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that true of all class A components? As I had music playing through it as I burned my Bravo in, but I didnt need to?_

 

Unlike class AB where one tube/valve amplifies all +ve parts of the signal and another (identical) one amplifies all -ve parts. Class A should (in theory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) burn it's self in as it uses a single valve/tube to amplify both +ve and -ve parts of the signal.

 In order to do this, the valve/tube in class A needs to be biased (idealy) @ roughly half it's total voltage (in order to be as linear as possible in its response).

 So, (without knowing much about the circuit or the valve/tube data sheet) the valve/tube would be drawing considerable current without a signal applied. Class A is the most inefficient form of amplification because of this.

 If anyone has a good reason why applying a signal would help please post, I'm always willing to learn


----------



## i_djoel2000

any suggestion what capacitor to upgrade in indeed tube amp?


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nerd1949* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, not the power cap, the two 1000uf signal output caps. They are located near the edge of hte board and larger diameter ones for at least one of them would probably stick about 1/8 inch over the board and to the edge of the plexy, ruling out (I think) cutting a hole. I'd rather just raise it (or find some other, smaller, decent caps)._

 

Whats wrong with the Elnas?


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Senn HD515's (50Ohm (budjet but ok)) are quite over powered by this amp and i am in the process of devising an attenuator._

 

I have the exact same issue with the Alessandro ms1i. I am very interested in the attenuator you are working on. Please let me know what you come up with.

 Thanks,
 Tony


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whats wrong with the Elnas?_

 

Nothing, they are good capacitors. I try to spend more time listening to it and less time worrying about changing glad to happy. I would just mess it up it I started unsoldering stuff like perfectly good capacitors. Likely to lift a pad.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unlike class AB where one tube/valve amplifies all +ve parts of the signal and another (identical) one amplifies all -ve parts. Class A should (in theory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) burn it's self in as it uses a single valve/tube to amplify both +ve and -ve parts of the signal.

 In order to do this, the valve/tube in class A needs to be biased (idealy) @ roughly half it's total voltage (in order to be as linear as possible in its response).

 So, (without knowing much about the circuit or the valve/tube data sheet) the valve/tube would be drawing considerable current without a signal applied. Class A is the most inefficient form of amplification because of this.

 If anyone has a good reason why applying a signal would help please post, I'm always willing to learn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ah right, I dont understand the theory but thank you for the answer


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unlike class AB where one tube/valve amplifies all +ve parts of the signal and another (identical) one amplifies all -ve parts. Class A should (in theory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) burn it's self in as it uses a single valve/tube to amplify both +ve and -ve parts of the signal.

 In order to do this, the valve/tube in class A needs to be biased (idealy) @ roughly half it's total voltage (in order to be as linear as possible in its response).

 So, (without knowing much about the circuit or the valve/tube data sheet) the valve/tube would be drawing considerable current without a signal applied. Class A is the most inefficient form of amplification because of this.

 If anyone has a good reason why applying a signal would help please post, I'm always willing to learn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

the tube is in the driver stage, the output stage is mosfet class A


----------



## i_djoel2000

anybody knows how to tweak this beautiful tiny amp to excelently drive AKG K701 or Beyer DT880 600 ohm?


----------



## grokit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anybody knows how to tweak this beautiful tiny amp to excelently drive AKG K701 or Beyer DT880 600 ohm? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The K701s are a _very_ good match with my "rolled" Indeed. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the DT880s, but they may be too detailed/efficient in the high end from what I have read like my HD600s? Then again they _are_ 600 ohm, so maybe.


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The K701s are a very good match with my "rolled" Indeed. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the DT880s, but they may be too detailed/efficient in the high end from what I have read like my HD600s? Then again they are 600 ohm, so maybe._

 

it didnt answer my question. i asked about how to 'tweak' this amp, meaning what kind of modding should give significant sound difference to the amp


----------



## nerd1949

Nothing's wrong with the Elna's, but Elna doesn't recommend using them in an audio signal path. There are better audio quality caps that might offer an improvement for less money than buying a high priced tube, or for that matter, why buy a better tube and mask it with a cap not designed for audio?


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nerd1949* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing's wrong with the Elna's, but Elna doesn't recommend using them in an audio signal path. There are better audio quality caps that might offer an improvement for less money than buying a high priced tube, or for that matter, why buy a better tube and mask it with a cap not designed for audio?_

 

There's always eBay.ph: 4PCS Nichicon MUSE KZ Audio Capacitor 1000uF 25V NEW (item 250505140694 end time Jan 25, 2010 22:40:50 PHT)

 It would be interesting to know the difference, Nichicon do several caps in the "Muse" range. Try "Nichicon muse 1000uf" in google. (interesting, the packaging is aklmost identicle to the Elana's) Also, it seems the RJJ spec is a high reliablity thing. beyond that i have no idea what a cap change might offer.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's always eBay.ph: 4PCS Nichicon MUSE KZ Audio Capacitor 1000uF 25V NEW (item 250505140694 end time Jan 25, 2010 22:40:50 PHT)

 It would be interesting to know the difference, Nichicon do several caps in the "Muse" range. Try "Nichicon muse 1000uf" in google. (interesting, the packaging is aklmost identicle to the Elana's) Also, it seems the RJJ spec is a high reliablity thing. beyond that i have no idea what a cap change might offer._

 

I've been doing a little research, too. Elna's audio grade electrolytic caps are the RFS SILMIC II line. Homemade Electronics has them here.

 Oh yeah, the Elna RJJs are 105C rated. The Nichicon Muse KZs in the eBay link are only 85C. I think that the temperature rating relates to the reliability factor by operating longer at higher temps. That's just an educated guess on my part.

 Both the Elna RFS SILMIC II and the Nichicon Muse KZs are taller than the RJJs and apparently of greater diameter.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nerd1949* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing's wrong with the Elna's, but Elna doesn't recommend using them in an audio signal path. There are better audio quality caps that might offer an improvement for less money than buying a high priced tube, or for that matter, why buy a better tube and mask it with a cap not designed for audio?_

 

I don't know if anything is being "masked" by these caps. Got proof?

 I can assure you, though, that it is easier to pull out a tube and put another in the socket, than it is to desolder components and resolder new ones. This is even more true when the new components are *much* larger than their predecessors, as the audio grade electrolytics I've found are... especially in height.

 Rolling a tube 1) doesn't require high priced tubes [I've got a couple that were 99p and sound much better than the stock one. Most were less than $10.] 2) doesn't require physically redesigning the amp [like changing out components _might_] and 3) minimizes the risk of damaging the circuit board [as opposed to de and re soldering components].

 I don't know about others but it appears to me that you are volunteering to modify the caps on your amp as a service to the rest of us! Let us know how it goes after you de-mask that $2 Chinese tube.


----------



## FallenAngel

Uhm... electrolytic caps in general aren't a good thing, but if it's a necessary evil, go with Elna RFS (Silmic II) from Digikey or Nichicon ES from Mouser if you want inexpensive but good. Otherwise, BlackGate NX it is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 As for "proof", lots of people have built amps with electrolytic output caps; it's common knowledge that good signal coupling caps are important. Having said that, I've never even heard of Elna RJJ series. Going with Elna RFS or Nichicon ES, you know you're getting a good capacitor.

 As for rolling tubes, enjoy


----------



## i_djoel2000

i heard new capacitor will be used in production after 22nd November 2009 and they claim its better than old capacitor..

 anyone bought the new version, compare with older version and noticed the difference in sound?


----------



## Nost

I bought mine in mid-December, it is as it's shown in the pic on the ebay sales page. It shows the RJJ Elna caps and thats what i have, tho according to elna they are not "audio grade" as Indeed claim. What caps did the Indeed use befoe the upgrade?

 I am inclined to side with the Judge on this one - that a different valve would have more affect than a different cap.

 I havent rolled yet so am still on the lookout for a cheap A-framed, dimple-disc gettered valve.... i dont have loads of cash to play the "trial 'n' error" game so PM me if anyone has a spare. Im only using Senn HD 515s so im not looking for the best, just much better would suffice


----------



## grokit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it didnt answer my question. i asked about how to 'tweak' this amp, meaning what kind of modding should give significant sound difference to the amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

whoops, sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Both the Elna RFS SILMIC II and the Nichicon Muse KZs are taller than the RJJs and apparently of greater diameter._

 

So would that make installing them a more than challenging project for me to break into circuit board soldering with? Replacing capacitors _sounds _simple enough, but nothing like this ever really is. I have decent soldering skills, but not on tiny circuit boards yet; I just got a more precise desktop iron to try out.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nost* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought mine in mid-December, it is as it's shown in the pic on the ebay sales page. It shows the RJJ Elna caps and thats what i have, tho according to elna they are not "audio grade" as Indeed claim. What caps did the Indeed use befoe the upgrade?

 I am inclined to side with the Judge on this one - that a different valve would have more affect than a different cap._

 

These are all great points, and if I had the newer Elna caps I would probably go with my "never mind" instinct at this point, but I still am unsatisfied with this amp;s synergy with most headphones so far, it can be very fatiguing. Mine is close to a year old at this point, so most surely has the more industrial caps but I have to confirm.

 So who's gonna be first to try this cap upgrade thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


----------



## Nost

Well, i've yet to properly audition the amp. I have tried it through a minidisc player when burning in and from a zune playing mp3's. My aim is Dual 505-4 TT > quad 34 (pre-amp) > Indeed > Senn hd515

 Untill i get this all sorted i cant really comment on weather this amp will fulfill my needs. I'll have time soon (within the next week or two. then i can have a propper listen and think about what to do.


----------



## gurusan

Mine arrived this morning, so far sounds great. I have a Mullard ECC88 on its way to me...

 I might change the caps on it as the Elna RJJ don't seem that great. Just need to figure out what to change with, maybe some Panasonic FC as they are good and cheap

 **edit**
 I have dug up a few capacitors, some 16V 1000uF Nichicon Muse that will replace the Elna RJJ ...they only see less than 10V so the 16V caps will be fine. The power cap I will have to purchase ...still not sure of what I will use but having a 25V rated cap seeing 24.3V is cutting it a bit close I think...whatever I get it will be 35-50V to be safe. Physical size means it has to be less than 30mm high though so will take me awhile to find something decent.

 There's also a little blue 100nf film cap that looks of questionable quality so I will change that out with a Wima .22uF that I have. Will report back once I make the changes this afternoon.


----------



## gurusan

**ignore**


----------



## gurusan

So I changed out the 2 elna caps and the blue film cap for nichicon muse and wima....can't say I notice a whole lot of difference but the bass seems a bit more controlled...but then again it may just be in my head. Got to say I feel better having quality components in there though...and it looks good too


----------



## i_djoel2000

cmon, lets move on to caps modding. leave tube rolling behind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i think changing capacitor will improves the sound better rather than changing tube. anybody have tried changing their caps and actually got significant improvement?


----------



## i_djoel2000

one more thing..

 i think changing the 6.3mm jack connector will also give improvement. its just an opinion though


----------



## nerd1949

Thanks Gurusan, that's what I was looking for, I have nichicon KZ's (25v) on hand which don't readily fit. Yours looks like ES's? 16Vs? Which obviously are a good fit size wise. My other option is to use 470uf KZ's which look like they will fit.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for "proof", lots of people have built amps with electrolytic output caps; it's common knowledge that good signal coupling caps are important. Having said that, I've never even heard of Elna RJJ series. Going with Elna RFS or Nichicon ES, you know you're getting a good capacitor.

 As for rolling tubes, enjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I was asking for proof that these caps were "masking" the tube as nerd1949 asserted. And as for the RJJ series they are a discontinued line (now it's RJH) of high reliability caps rated at 5000 hours @ 105C. They just aren't audio grade. The audio grades are apparently rated at 1000 hours at 85C (RFS).

 My assertion is just this: You can't change a couple of caps and get the stock Chinese tube to sound as wonderful as either of my dimpled-gettered, A frame Mullards that I paid a total of 3.79 pounds plus 3 pounds for shipping.

 I am not against changing out components at all. If people mod their amps and the changes are even subjectively dramatic, I'll probably do it too. But it won't equal rolling the tube. The tube is what gives this amp personality. The differences between the various tubes I have gathered for this amp aren't subtle in the least... You can bet your caps on that.


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was asking for proof that these caps were "masking" the tube as nerd1949 asserted. And as for the RJJ series they are a discontinued line (now it's RJH) of high reliability caps rated at 5000 hours @ 105C. They just aren't audio grade. The audio grades are apparently rated at 1000 hours at 85C (RFS).

 My assertion is just this: You can't change a couple of caps and get the stock Chinese tube to sound as wonderful as either of my dimpled-gettered, A frame Mullards that I paid a total of 3.79 pounds plus 3 pounds for shipping.

 I am not against changing out components at all. If people mod their amps and the changes are even subjectively dramatic, I'll probably do it too. But it won't equal rolling the tube. The tube is what gives this amp personality. The differences between the various tubes I have gathered for this amp aren't subtle in the least... You can bet your caps on that._

 

i might agree with you. but from what i observed, the weakness of this indeed is that the mid sound is a little 'recessed'. other than that i didnt actually found them disappointing, but surprisingly good instead..

 so from what the weakness i observed..changing caps to a more better synergy would be the solution


----------



## gurusan

I just changed them because I had the caps on hand and I'm a fiend.

 However, the power filter cap I really want to change as having a 25V rated cap in a 24.3V situation is very bad practice.


----------



## Nost

I think the power filter cap is the one that deserves the most attention, The Bravo has a 6800uf cap whereas the indeed sports a modest 2200uf. For those of you with 300-600Ohm cans, i can see the bass bottoming out when the little amp is turned up. I only have 50Ohm cans, are so easy to drive that the 2200uf cap isnt a problem...


----------



## gurusan

I don't notice any bass bottoming out with my HD580s, but will certainly be replacing the cap anyway and I'm sure it can benefit from something a tad larger.


----------



## nerd1949

The whole point of swapping the signal caps for better ones is so you can more accurately hear the tube and hear the differences between tubes. It's not a substitute for using a tube you like. It's an attempt to lessen the contribution of the other components to the overall sound signature of the tube. I expect (but since I haven't gotten around to it yet, I really don't know) that by replacing the caps with better audio quality ones, good sounding tubes will sound better, and bad sounding tubes will still sound bad. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all will sound better. I've got to finish up some other projects first, but I'm going to give it a try. And then do some tube rolling... (again)


----------



## i_djoel2000

cmon headfiers..lets mod our indeed and get the best result

 because i fell in love with this beautiful amp and prefer to mod this amp to the highest performance rather than buying new amp with ugly looks..


----------



## i_djoel2000

anybody knows how to anticipate the mid? because i think the mid is a little bit recessed..


----------



## gurusan

the mids sound fine to me....in fact with my HD580s the sound is very neutral


----------



## Judge Buff

How many hours do you have on the new caps, gurusan? Is there any perceptible difference, yet?


----------



## nerd1949

I finally got around to swapping the output caps. I had some 470uf Muse KZ's that fit. All I can say is I'm glad I did. Only have a few hours listening with the original tube in but I can tell a difference. The lower end seems tighter and a general impression of better separation of instruments, vocals etc. Not an earth shaking difference but perceptible. The mids sound fine to me also. I wish I had a stock one to go back to and do an extended comparison but seems to me it's worth the couple of dollars. Gonna listen some more with the stock tube and then switch to an Edicron 6922 gold pin that sounded good before the cap swap. One thing, I had to get my soldering iron hot (680F) to get a good flow soldering the new caps in. I don't know what ounce copper the board has but it soldered like it was 2oz.


----------



## FallenAngel

KZ are not bipolar, why not just go with the Nichicon ES, they're made for this application and don't cost too much.


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_KZ are not bipolar, why not just go with the Nichicon ES, they're made for this application and don't cost too much._

 

does Nichison ES do any good on indeed? anybody tried? any links to buy it?


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the exact same issue with the Alessandro ms1i. I am very interested in the attenuator you are working on. Please let me know what you come up with.

 Thanks,
 Tony_

 

Regarding the issue with gain being too high for some headphones, would a device like this help? Does anyone have experience with this device?

Applied Research & Technology: ARTcessories™

 Thanks.


----------



## i_djoel2000

im confused with all the capacitance and voltage specs. should i go with higher capacitance and higher voltage caps?


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many hours do you have on the new caps, gurusan? Is there any perceptible difference, yet?_

 

A few hours, the bass seems to have improved quite a bit. 

 However I only had around 1 hour on the amp prior to changing the caps so obviously my testing methodology is not that great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just glad I have some better components in there.


----------



## gurusan

Just got my Mullard ECC88 and the amp sounds really incredible now. Not sure how but the imaging seems to have improved :/ Perhaps just better separation of highs and lows but I use my headphones for gaming as well and I've noticed the difference.


----------



## nerd1949

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_KZ are not bipolar, why not just go with the Nichicon ES, they're made for this application and don't cost too much._

 

Cause I had the KZ's and was impatient.

 Mouser carries the Nichicon ES: UES1C102MHM Nichicon Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - Leaded


----------



## gurusan

Found this at mouser....might make a decent small upgrade on the power filter cap?
 4700uF 25V Nichicon KW
UKW1E472MHD Nichicon Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - Leaded


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im confused with all the capacitance and voltage specs. should i go with higher capacitance and higher voltage caps?_

 

can anyone answer this question?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_KZ are not bipolar, why not just go with the Nichicon ES, they're made for this application and don't cost too much._

 

Looks like the ES would fit between the volume control pot and the mini-out jack on the Indeed but not on my Bravo. I ordered Nichicon Muse FG 1000mfd 16v for the Bravo and a couple more for the Indeed since I was already paying shipping. The FG's are a little smaller diameter than the ES or KZ.


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can anyone answer this question? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, the higher voltage and capacitance the cap, the bigger it's gonna be. the amp is stable and the power supply is 24V from a switch mode PSU, The voltage spec of the caps seem fine; If the cap you are replacing says 16v then go with 16V otherwise you could start heading into "THIS CAP WONT ******* FIT" problems. as for capacitance values, the only one I would personally change is the power smoothing cap. It's a 2200Uf and on the Bravo is a much larger 6800uF (4400uF would also be an improvement and wouldnt be as large), IMHO a far better value for this application BUT NOT CRUCIAL.
 IF you really must play, swap out the two 1000uF caps for some audio rated ones as done on an earlyer post but be warned... BAD JOOJOO MY HAPPEN SO BE IT ON YOUR HEAD

 Im afraid thats all the help i can offer. my interest in electronics is only a passing one...

 enjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am still hunting for a couple of cheap valves to roll so Im not changing anything till i sort that out.


----------



## grokit

Wouldn't one go with the 25v caps since the PSU is 24v? Probably a stupid question, I don't have much experience with this. 

 Need you guys to agree on how to switch which caps for what!


----------



## gurusan

The 2 electrolytic output caps only see around 10V so the 16V caps are fine. The power smoothing cap is the one that must be at least 25V


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 2 electrolytic output caps only see around 10V so the 16V caps are fine. The power smoothing cap is the one that must be at least 25V_

 

what if i change the power caps to 50v one? will it break the system?

 what do you think about changing the output caps to NICHICON MUSE ES 1000uF 25VDC BI POLAR CAPACITOR?


----------



## Nost

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what if i change the power caps to 50v one? will it break the system?_

 

No, It will not break the system but you will have a hard job fitting a 50v cap in the place of what ever is there already, I think.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what do you think about changing the output caps to NICHICON MUSE ES 1000uF 25VDC BI POLAR CAPACITOR?_

 

16VDC would fit easier a la gurusan... That's what he put in his mod.


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_16VDC would fit easier a la gurusan... That's what he put in his mod._

 

really?

 but if you look closely on the indeed picture, the maker also use 1000uF and 25V capacitor on the output caps CMIIW


----------



## gurusan

Yeah but if you measure the voltage it's only a tad under 10V


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_really?

 but if you look closely on the indeed picture, the maker also use 1000uF and 25V capacitor on the output caps CMIIW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Really for truly... and gurusan has his modded to 16vdc and 1000uf and nerd1949 modded his to Nichicon KZs with 470uf (but I can't suss out the VDC spec). Remember that you said that changing these caps would help you "anticipate" the mids or something like that and solve the recessed mids... Well, people are changing them out with different caps.

 The data sheet for the es series (here) shows that the 25vdc 1000uf is 31.5mm tall. I think that's just a mm or 2 too tall for mine anyway... CMIIW right back at ya!

 Look... not only does the component need to fit electronically, it must fit _physically_ unless you intend to remove the top acrylic plate in this instance...


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really for truly... and gurusan has his modded to 16vdc and 1000uf and nerd1949 modded his to Nichicon KZs with 470uf (but I can't suss out the VDC spec). Remember that you said that changing these caps would help you "anticipate" the mids or something like that and solve the recessed mids... Well, people are changing them out with different caps.

 The data sheet for the es series (here) shows that the 25vdc 1000uf is 31.5mm tall. I think that's just a mm or 2 too tall for mine anyway... CMIIW right back at ya!

 Look... not only does the component need to fit electronically, it must fit physically unless you intend to remove the top acrylic plate in this instance..._

 

thanx for the in-depth comment.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but from what i read from gurusan's comments..he said he hasn't noticed any significant improvements on the sound after he changed his caps, that's why i started to wonder whether it is a problem of unsynergy caps or not. now im thinking of changing the power caps to higher capacitance but still in 25 volt range. Let say 4700uF 25V Electrolytic Capacitors. do you guys think its a good call?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanx for the in-depth comment.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but from what i read from gurusan's comments..he said he hasn't noticed any significant improvements on the sound after he changed his caps, that's why i started to wonder whether it is a problem of unsynergy caps or not. now im thinking of changing the power caps to higher capacitance but still in 25 volt range. Let say 4700uF 25V Electrolytic Capacitors. do you guys think its a good call?_

 

That's what I plan on doing... I've already got it on order. I also have a 35V 4700uf coming. I'll decide which one after they get here. I got KZs 1000uf coming along with the ES because nerd1949 appears to like his KZ output. I also have a pair of 16V 2200uf ES coming because It appears they'll fit if I choose to use them.

 I don't hear anything indicative of a lack of "synergy" in my amp. gurusan also says that he didn't have much time on his amp *pre* cap swap to compare the result to. 

 I like my amp now. I like rolling different tubes to achieve different sound presentations. Some tubes are more spacious. Some are stronger bass/mids/highs. Some are very balanced, but some are very mid forward. The amp changes when the tube changes. It all sounds good... different, but good. Some tubes have a slight hum, but most are silent. It doesn't hiss with either of the sources I use - ever. If all that can sound any better by swapping out these caps, I'm all for it. 

 If changing the caps doesn't somehow improve the basic presentation (I can't qualify how it could be improved though), I'll be somewhat disappointed for all the effort, but my amp sounds good *now*.


----------



## gurusan

yeah, I didn't have a whole lot of time listening to the amp before I started messing with things.

 Also I really try my best to remain objective and not fool myself I am hearing differences when I'm not. I also just like good quality components in my equipment even if I can't detect huge changes (within reason of course, I don't buy into silver solder, power cables, or crazy expensive boutique passive components or any nonsense).

 The philips BC cap is pretty good quality so I am happy with it there, but in a week or so I may change it for a Nichicon KZ 4700uF just cuz 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think tube rolling will result in the most notable changes, but I'm a bit strapped for cash after Xmas, and my mother's Bday was today as well...so I don't really feel like shelling out for tube after tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would like one of those Philips Jan 6922 to play with though...


----------



## i_djoel2000

so far ive listed some tube been used by headfiers to roll the tube amp..

 1. mullard
 2. jan-sylvania

 anything else? can anyone put their impression of each tube stated on the list above?

 so any newbie or newcomers could easily identify or pick their favorite tube..


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so far ive listed some tube been used by headfiers to roll the tube amp..

 1. mullard
 2. jan-sylvania

 anything else? can anyone put their impression of each tube stated on the list above?

 so any newbie or newcomers could easily identify or pick their favorite tube.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's just not that simple. 

 Each *brand* (i.e. Mullard, Amperex, Telefunken, etc.) has multiple tube _types_ (i.e. 6dj8, 6922, 2492, ecc88, e88cc, etc) that will fit in this amp, and multiple series (i.e. different getters, labels, date codes, etc.) of those _types_. You must have an idea of the different labels, logos, getters and such that distinguish each tube. This isn't a true taxonomy by any stretch of the imagination, but it's how I've tried to suss it out. You will get confused probably, but keep reading and try to sort it all out. Try one _type_ at a time...

 My best advice is for you to Google some of the different _types_ and start reading on ALL the sites that you can find. After you know what to look for, the fun part is finding a particular _type_ and series from a particular *brand* that you can actually afford and acquiring it.

 Time for you to study...


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's just not that simple. 

 Each *brand* (i.e. Mullard, Amperex, Telefunken, etc.) has multiple tube types (i.e. 6dj8, 6922, 2492, ecc88, e88cc, etc) that will fit in this amp, and multiple series (i.e. different getters, labels, date codes, etc.) of those types. You must have an idea of the different labels, logos, getters and such that distinguish each tube. This isn't a true taxonomy by any stretch of the imagination, but it's how I've tried to suss it out. You will get confused probably, but keep reading and try to sort it all out. Try one type at a time...

 My best advice is for you to Google some of the different types and start reading on ALL the sites that you can find. After you know what to look for, the fun part is finding a particular type and series from a particular *brand* that you can actually afford and acquiring it.

 Time for you to study..._

 

i see..

 anyway, im still waiting for your caps modding.hehe

 please share your mod improvement here after it's done


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *i_djoel2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i see..

 anyway, im still waiting for your caps modding.hehe

 please share your mod improvement here after it's done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hoped to get it done this coming week, but I am going to reorder a different set of output caps. Gurusan went with the Nichicon ES and nerd1949 went with Nichicon KZs... both great caps. I decided to shift to Elna's best audio electros, the Silmic II. I think I will take after each of them though and use 16V (gurusan) 470uf (nerd1949) caps. I'm getting the 25V too for a choice.

 I'm also going to try and get the electronics lab and students at a tech school to do before and after comparisons, so I can have some objective data to report. I'm not promising anything, but I'm going to try to do this.


----------



## Judge Buff

I got my Elna Silmic IIs (16VDC 470uf) in the mail yesterday afternoon. I got antsy today and replaced both of the 1000uf caps. Sorry about not doing the analysis. I couldn't get to the electronics lab until late next week, due to work issues. Old guys get "wild hairs," too.

 If anything changed initially it would be that the sound became more refined and smoother; especially in the upper mids and trebles. They had more of an _edge_ with the old Elnas, especially with 6dj8s. I'll cook them for a while and report back. 

 I may replace the PS cap with a 4700uf KZ, like gurusan did, tomorrow. I may try to post some pics when I'm finished, but it's not like I'm hanging components all over the pcb like some folks (read gurusan) have done. Lol


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my Elna Silmic IIs (16VDC 470uf) in the mail yesterday afternoon. I got antsy today and replaced both of the 1000uf caps. Sorry about not doing the analysis. I couldn't get to the electronics lab until late next week, due to work issues. Old guys get "wild hairs," too.

 If anything changed initially it would be that the sound became more refined and smoother; especially in the upper mids and trebles. They had more of an edge with the old Elnas, especially with 6dj8s. I'll cook them for a while and report back. 

 I may replace the PS cap with a 4700uf KZ, like gurusan did, tomorrow. I may try to post some pics when I'm finished, but it's not like I'm hanging components all over the pcb like some folks (read gurusan) have done. Lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

nice report buff..

 waiting for the in-depth review


----------



## Judge Buff

Hey Folks, the real action is taking place over on the Bravo thread. Due to some in-depth analysis from a few people with more knowledge than I'll ever have, I'm reswapping the 16V caps and changing out the pots. As soon as they get here, that is. 

 I've already swapped out the PS cap with the 4700uf and the amp is mega smooth and meaty with a great Amperex 6dj8 that's essentially a Bugle Boy, but has an orange and white label. Good stuff... Check out the Bravo thread!


----------



## marcello

If you like more bass, switch to 2x 4700uf, but 35 V, 25V for 24V source is bad imo, I'm used to this value from my previous build of CMOY, now there's plenty of bass (for some too much, but it's not muddy) even on 250 ohm headphones, such as on my BeyerDynamic DT-990 PRO, there's enough volume, now it's driven properly, but the mids are kind of recessed, what is typical for those headphones. I just bought Amperex ecc88 on ebay, so I'm looking forward to test it and review it. it's a nice little amp, but tube can improve it.

 I also installed small polypropylene caps parallel with other caps on the bottom, but I can't tell you sonic difference and installed bigger passive coolers.. Damn, this thing is hot. A class amp, you know.


----------



## gurusan

The problem is space, how do you fit 2 x 4700uF 35V caps?


----------



## marcello

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is space, how do you fit 2 x 4700uF 35V caps?_

 

You're totally right, there's not enough space. I cut a hole in that plastic for one cap and second cap is just next to it. It's not looking so cute anymore, I know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , but it's about the sound. I'll post some photos as soon as I find my cable from mobile camera


----------



## gurusan

actually I've just fitted a second 4700uF cap and you are right, it has improved the bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I put it along the underside so will just elevate the PCB a bit more with some spacers. 

 I also put .1uF film caps on the LM317 outputs. Will take pics in a bit.

 And why did you upgrade the heatsinks? What fits? I think it's an unnecessary upgrade as the IRF630N is good for up to 175C but it certainly doesn't hurt.


----------



## marcello

Photos as I promised:






 I'm looking forward for your pics of modding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Those heatsinks are just temporary there, I'm thinking of changing the position of them. The reason to have it are actually condensers. The more heat on them, the shorter life, and when more heat is on resistors, there's also more noise, however, I don't think it's so audible. It's about life time and reliability. With default heatsinks the components don't have life longer than 2 years when regularly used I suspect.


----------



## gurusan

good job! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Actually upgrading the cooling would allow me to recase the amp in something nicer. I will be building a grubDAC soon as the PCB comes and maybe I will case it along with that for a nice all-in 1 solution


----------



## gurusan

pics of my mods:


----------



## marcello

WIMAs are better, but I won't go for it for the price and size, in low voltage circuits there's lower audible difference.

 I like the idea of all in one solution, thumbs up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What tube do you have it there? What about stock vs. upgraded sound? (sorry if you mentioned it earlier, this thread is too long to read and remember all posts)


----------



## gurusan

I got a good deal on a whole pack of wimas on ebay awhile back 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I am running a Mullard ECC88

 I don't really remember quite how it sounded at stock anymore, I just know that it sounds really really really good now. Actually I think what has improved the most is bass response and the highs are much crisper.

 I've spent about 20gbp on upgrades and had a lot of fun doing it so I think it's worth it


----------



## Judge Buff

While I also enjoy the sound of mine currently, I am going to swap the 16V caps to 25V 470ufs and install decent pots. I am looking at potentially installing a 6800uf or a 10K cap on the PS. To do so would require me to either remove the top acrylic sheet or remove a section of it. 

 I'm not having any luck in finding large audio grade electros either. If you have a source for these PM me.


----------



## gurusan

why are you going for 25V and 470uF? Also which caps in particular, mouser has nichicon KW which are pretty good, also panny FM


----------



## gurusan

1 question, how can I reduce the gain of this amp? It drives my HD 580 to insane volumes.


----------



## Judge Buff

I had put 16V 470s (Elna Silmic II) in it based on yours and nerd1949's comments- 16V from yours and the 470uf from his. They sound extremely good. After reading jamato8 and CPL's comments about the voltages this past weekend, I decided to go back to 25V caps for the output. 
 I'm using a 4700 KW on the PS, now, and I'm thinking about putting a big cap there, like a 10K. Mouser has one 35V 10KuF KW... Do I dare buy the last one in stock?!?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had put 16V 470s (Elna Silmic II) in it based on yours and nerd1949's comments- 16V from yours and the 470uf from his. They sound extremely good. After reading jamato8 and CPL's comments about the voltages this past weekend, I decided to go back to 25V caps for the output. 
 I'm using a 4700 KW on the PS, now, and I'm thinking about putting a big cap there, like a 10K. Mouser has one 35V 10KuF KW... Do I dare buy the last one in stock?!?_

 


 I think the high quality 16 volt caps would be ok on the output, I measured 14 volts on mine.


----------



## ovrclkd

Just got mine today ... thru a 70's Mullard in it on a recommendation from the Judge and it sounds pretty damn good through the 702's. Once you guys get the mods weeded out send me the short list!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ovrclkd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got mine today ... thru a 70's Mullard in it on a recommendation from the Judge and it sounds pretty damn good through the 702's. Once you guys get the mods weeded out send me the short list! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm glad for ya! I have not heard a Mully that wasn't sweet listening in my amp. The ECC88 in mine now is an A Frame Mully that is strong, defined, airy with great bass depth and just a joy to listen to anything that's playing... including some Kanye that I got from my kids. Find an A Frame y'all... You won't regret it at all.

 It does "indeed" sound really good right now. (Pun intended, lol.) I only feel the *need* to replace the pots on it, as they really just suck for adjusting the tube voltages. I'm looking at options to put a gigantoid cap on the PS, but I've got to determine if and how I'm going to mod the acrylic sheet. I need to research my Dremel accessories and skills, too, in that regard. 

 Nice little amp. I think I'll keep it.


----------



## Judge Buff

Replaced the pots with these. These are _very_ easy to adjust precisely and they install very easy, too. Much better than the stock trim pots.

 If you roll tubes, these are the $#!+ for ease of adjusting the voltage on the new tube. And if you are not rolling tubes, you don't know what you are missing.


----------



## 22B

I am currently out of town and would like to order a DC plug for my linear power supply. 
 Can someone please measure the DC plug dimensions for me? I need the inner and the outer diameters. 
 Thanks


----------



## gurusan

again, anyone know how I can reduce the gain of the amp?


----------



## 22B

What is the difference between using 470uf and 1000uf (25v or 16v)caps? I am about to order some to replace the two in my Bravo with kz caps. Will 470 sound better? I was planning on replacing the same specs.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_again, anyone know how I can reduce the gain of the amp?_

 

Dont know your source but how about something along the lines of an inline attenuators?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the difference between using 470uf and 1000uf (25v or 16v)caps? I am about to order some to replace the two in my Bravo with kz caps. Will 470 sound better? I was planning on replacing the same specs._

 

In the Silmic IIs, 25V 470s are much bigger than the 1000 RJJs. To my ears, the 16V Silmic II 470s sound awesome and I'm sure that nerd1949's 470 KZs (IIRC) sound much better than the RJJs, too. 

 Make sure that whatever you decide to put in there will actually fit before you buy them.


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the Silmic IIs, 25V 470s are much bigger than the 1000 RJJs. To my ears, the 16V Silmic II 470s sound awesome and I'm sure that nerd1949's 470 KZs (IIRC) sound much better than the RJJs, too. 

 Make sure that whatever you decide to put in there will actually fit before you buy them._

 

I guess Nichicon KZs are out of the question than since they start at 16mm wide in 25V 470uf. I would have to use 330uf (12.5mm x 25mm) in order to physically fit. They don't make KZs in 16V. Too bad, mouser.com does not sell Silmic IIs in 470uf.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_again, anyone know how I can reduce the gain of the amp?_

 


Designing Common-Cathode Amplifiers

 If you look through this link you will see that the plate resistor is largely responsible for setting the gain on this type of amp. I'm not an amp designer so I can't say what collateral damage you might do by just messing around with different plate resistors. But if you think you need to lower the plate resistance you can put a resistor in parallel with it without any soldering I would think. Pay attention to the current, wouldn't want to go real low on resistance.


----------



## CPL593H

The first power supply that I got was bad - super noisy. The replacement from Indeed showed up. Guess what - it is also noisy and unusable. The Indeed amp works with a power supply from a similar Bravo headphone amplifier. I have to give a thumbs down -not recommended rating on the Indeed amp based on the inability to get it to work with either the original or a replacement power supply.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The first power supply that I got was bad - super noisy. The replacement from Indeed showed up. Guess what - it is also noisy and unusable. The Indeed amp works with a power supply from a similar Bravo headphone amplifier. I have to give a thumbs down -not recommended rating on the Indeed amp based on the inability to get it to work with either the original or a replacement power supply._

 

Ouch! QC seems to be an issue with both of these amps' power supplies in general. I hate that you have had this issue, especially as I complemented my Indeed in the Bravo thread because my PS is so quiet. It's been really good. Since I put this huge filter cap on it, I can barely even hear any hum as the tubes warm up and they are completely silent afterward, even on those that were prone to hum before.

 I posted these thumbnails of my mods in the Bravo thread and I wanted to share them here also. That 10KuF KW cap is a monster, but it has done beautiful stuff to the soundstage. I'd put at least a 6800uF in it, if you decide to mod. The difference is palpable in the purity and expansiveness of the sound. As good as it sounded pre-mods, it sounds even better now.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ouch! QC seems to be an issue with both of these amps' power supplies in general. I hate that you have had this issue, especially as I complemented my Indeed in the Bravo thread because my PS is so quiet. It's been really good. Since I put this huge filter cap on it, I can barely even hear any hum as the tubes warm up and they are completely silent afterward, even on those that were prone to hum before.

 I posted these thumbnails of my mods in the Bravo thread and I wanted to share them here also. That 10KuF KW cap is a monster, but it has done beautiful stuff to the soundstage. I'd put at least a 6800uF in it, if you decide to mod. The difference is palpable in the purity and expansiveness of the sound. As good as it sounded pre-mods, it sounds even better now._

 

Nice pics looks good. The Bravo that I'm listening to has 10,800 uF capacitance in the p supply. Also has a pretty big choke in the PS.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice pics looks good. The Bravo that I'm listening to has 10,800 uF capacitance in the p supply. Also has a pretty big choke in the PS._

 

Can you throw a thumbnail up of how they are implemented?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you throw a thumbnail up of how they are implemented?_

 

I didn't modify the Bravo, just using a power supply with 4 1K filter capacitors. That plus the one on the Bravo is 10.8K.


----------



## mrB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Replaced the pots with these. These are very easy to adjust precisely and they install very easy, too. Much better than the stock trim pots.

 If you roll tubes, these are the $#!+ for ease of adjusting the voltage on the new tube. And if you are not rolling tubes, you don't know what you are missing._

 

I have put a 1970 Mullard in my Indeed. Great tube!
 Could you please indicate how to tweek the voltages (where to measure and so on), and what is the necessity and effect of so doing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Many thanks.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have put a 1970 Mullard in my Indeed. Great tube!
 Could you please indicate how to tweek the voltages (where to measure and so on), and what is the necessity and effect of so doing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Many thanks._

 

These days I just do it by ear for each tube I roll into the amp. CPL593H has the 411 on using a multimeter to adjust it in the Bravo amp thread on page 27.

 Basically, you want to adjust the tube bias to balance the voltage/current between the 2 triodes on the tube because this will provide the best sounding audio. Each triode controls a channel (L or R). If they are balanced, the music is presented as recorded for each channel. 

 If this over-simplified explanation is fundamentally flawed, I'm sure that someone will correct it for you, while pointing out every freakin' error I've made... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, try to pick up an Amperex Holland A frame for a contrast tube to roll. I have a Mullard A frame that I love and a number of Amperex and Siemens that are just awesome. Every tube has a personality of its own and you can maximize the characteristics of each tube with the bias pots. Enjoy!


----------



## erasmus

Any experience or impressions on how well this drives the K701 versus the Little Dot I+ or Millett Starving Student?


----------



## grokit

Out of all the headphones I have tried with my Indeed Hybrid, I think my K701s had the best synergy with it.


----------



## marcello

After a month of listening after burn-in process, changing tube to Amperex Holland, capacitors from stock ->Muse ES470uf->SanyoWG1000uf I must say, quality considerably changed from cheap chinese amp to budget "mid-fi" amp. I think Muse ES and Sanyo WG had the same sound, Muse need 8 hour burn-in to hear the quality of it.

 Pros:
 cost(hmm, maybe not after all those improvements)
 can drive 250ohms very well
 no distortion, whatsoever
 warm signature
 Cons:
 warm signature, I want live analytical sound, so not my taste
 highs miss that sparkle, although Tube change improved it, Cmoy BB is far more analytical

 All in all, my CmoyBB has for me better SQ, I like to hear all little things in music, my Cmoy has low-end opamp, so it distorts with high volumes, there the tube amp shines.

 Indeed is nice little amp, not so bad for the price, great for fun, but op-amp circuit done right can beat this any day if you want precise reproduction.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marcello* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After a month of listening after burn-in process, changing tube to Amperex Holland, capacitors from stock ->Muse ES470uf->SanyoWG1000uf I must say, quality considerably changed from cheap chinese amp to budget "mid-fi" amp. I think Muse ES and Sanyo WG had the same sound, Muse need 8 hour burn-in to hear the quality of it.

 Pros:
 cost(hmm, maybe not after all those improvements)
 can drive 250ohms very well
 no distortion, whatsoever
 warm signature
 Cons:
 warm signature, I want live analytical sound, so not my taste
 highs miss that sparkle, although Tube change improved it, Cmoy BB is far more analytical

 All in all, my CmoyBB has for me better SQ, I like to hear all little things in music, my Cmoy has low-end opamp, so it distorts with high volumes, there the tube amp shines.

 Indeed is nice little amp, not so bad for the price, great for fun, but op-amp circuit done right can beat this any day if you want precise reproduction._

 

While I enjoy rolling opamps in my cMoyBB2.02, The sound of my Indeed after the mods is more enjoyable for me via tube rolling. But I do have an OPA2107 and an LT1358 that I really love to listen to with my 440s and the BB202.

 The one mod that I really think made the most sonic impact on my Indeed was the addition of the 10K uF cap on the ps. I heartily recommend that y'all get the largest cap (or combination thereof) that you can fit in this position (schematically). It was as though I had built a larger, more pure, theater for the rest of the components to play the music in...the soundstage got wider, taller, deeper and cleaner.

 Just look at that mother in the avatar window... It's huge!

 Oh yeah, Marcello, if you want your tube amp to sound more "analytical," I'd suggest that you invest in a Telefunken or Siemens E88cc. They seem to be more precise and less colored to me. Roll more than one tube though before you make up your mind. I have some very clean-sounding Amperexes that are more analytical than my BB202 with the stock OPA2227. Enjoy!


----------



## netsky3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *erasmus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any experience or impressions on how well this drives the K701 versus the Little Dot I+ or Millett Starving Student?_

 

bump


----------



## grokit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *netsky3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bump 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I can't compare with the LD 1+ or Millett SS, but My Indeed drives the K701s quite adequately, better synergy than with some other good cans I tried IMO


----------



## marcello

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The one mod that I really think made the most sonic impact on my Indeed was the addition of the 10K uF cap on the ps._

 

Yeah, I didn't mention I did this too, even better than 6800uf, tube on booting really shines, I mean visually 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . Hmm. Now I'm thinking that I have cheap PS cap in there. How could low ESR PS impact the SQ? I it only in faster handling the lows?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh yeah, Marcello, if you want your tube amp to sound more "analytical," I'd suggest that you invest in a Telefunken or Siemens E88cc. ... Enjoy!_

 

 Hmmm. And I though I finished with modding this amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, I don't want to spend loads of money on this everything. When I was buying the Amperex, I chose because someone said,"Everything from Holland is good", that summed it all in the time I was browsing all those forums. I Still would like different SQ.

 Judge Buff, would you recommend me

 {search ebay for ""E88CC SIEMENS NOS""}(must be in quotes), one item should come up ?

 it was the cheapest I found, I can't see the difference in Siemens for $15 and for $150, they look the same to me


----------



## john57

Has anyone noticed the G2 version? Looks like they added more heat sinks.


----------



## mahno

Hello everybody! Hope, somebody still has attention on this preamp. Forgive me my german-english.. I bought recently the G2 version on ebay, it still coming.. I definetly overpayed, but they do not sell it in Germany.. By the same time, i took a book from Library. It´s called: Tube Projects from 6-60V. Authors name is Burkhard Kainka. I found a lot schematics on such amps, also Hybrid like this. It runs also from 24V. Uses same type of tube and looks very similar. I will compare it with Indeed`s stuff when i get it.. The Autor of the book suggestes to raise the voltage to 27V also by building AC block by yourself and make it better noise resistent.. I dont have enough idea about this stuff, so i will leave it as it is and if i dont like the sound, will try to change the tube.. It means- everything new is well forgotten old.. This book is fun, it shows many ideas of using "high voltage" tubes with less power.. Like making EL34 or EL504 or EL 95 work just from a few Volts. 6.3, 12, 24 etc. It`s interesting. If you expect to drive 600 Ohm headphones only from this preamp, you can leave many parts of the schematic out and get better sound quality. It looks so simple, i ll try out to build one.
 I have a question: I bought recently an endamp from Experience tech. It gives 2x 30W and runs 2 x ECC 83, 8 x EL 84 tubes. You can find an info on their page: 
EXPERIENCE electronics - Endstufe Quadriga Stereo 2 x 30 W
 It needs a preamp, does it?
 So, what should i do? Use an Indeeds preamp before (impedance ok?) or connect it directly to my Roland USB Interface? Or take an preamped signal from my NAD 312? (makes no sense?). Sorry for the silly question, i`m musician and know how to make sound with hands... Also, does it works well to let the signal from Indeeds preamp go into NAD end section? I wont to drive Sansui SP 1200 with it. (They are sensitive enough- 92db)
 Thank you a lot!


----------



## john57

yes you can use the Roland USB Interface as a source if it has RCA line outs to drive your NAD which in turn drives the speakers.


----------



## john57

Does anyone or can someone point me where I can find the test points to adjust the bias trim pots on the G2?


----------



## mahno

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john57* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes you can use the Roland USB Interface as a source if it has RCA line outs to drive your NAD which in turn drives the speakers._

 

Thank you for the answer!
 I could connect Roland USB directly to amp. It works well, Roland seems to give even more power then needed.
 Right now i connected Roland USB to Indeed G2 preamp and then to the End-Amplifier i descriebed above (2x 30W 8 Ohm). Sounds just great! It was a surprise, that my speakers- Elac EL75 II do better with this equipment as Sansui SP 1200... Sound is much tighter, precise, warm and it gives incredible bass. It seems to produce much more sound without distortion compairing to Nad 312 i used before. I decided not to sell Elac`s =)
 Yesterday i rolled the Chinese tube on Indeed to NOS Jan Sylvania 6922. I adjusted BIAS by ear. Sounds better, sometimes to sharp. I hope it will dissapear when tube burns in. I was able to check Bias today- it`s 37 mA on both channels however trims are not same position. Funny i could do it by ear =) I should try to calculate optimal setting for this tube. Sounds good so far. Should i try to modify this preamp? Leave headphones jack out, bypass source switch, replace volume trim with resistor. (I have a volume on Roland and end-amp) make a alluminium case for it with enough cooling space.. Capacitor seems to be different then G1- its 25V 6800 uF. No need to change? I have also another selfmade power supply- 24V 1.5A. There is time delay switch in the signal path. It connects after 3 seconds after turn on. Schould i remove it also? I believe to reduce noise level by leaving all this stuff out. Could somebody help me with advice?
 Thank you a lot!
 Have a nice day!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Here is a link to one of the most worthwhile mods you can do to these amps...
 Starts about half way down the page...
Add the Bias Capacitor...it's missing!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Bias Setting:

 I have seen many people wonder how to set the trim pots...
 The pot sets the bias voltage on the cathode of the tube.
 I have seen it suggested that it be set at 16 to 17 volts as measured at the anode of the tube.
 The proper setting is to measure the voltage at the positive terminal
 of the output capacitor. The reading should be 1/2 the supply voltage
 or 12 volts in this case. On my bravo this gave me 15.75 volts on the
 anode of the tube. Hope this helps people with setting their bias point.

 Happy listening!


----------



## john57

which output cap are you talking about? I have the G2 model and the one issue I have with it is very high gain. I was told by Indeed that the RCA inputs will overload at 1.5v which seems to be low.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john57* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which output cap are you talking about? I have the G2 model and the one issue I have with it is very high gain. I was told by Indeed that the RCA inputs will overload at 1.5v which seems to be low._

 

My comments apply only to the G1 version, not the G2 version with the double heat-sinks on the MOSFETs.
 I do not have a G2 to study or the schematic to it.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a link to one of the most worthwhile mods you can do to these amps...
 Starts about half way down the page...
Add the Bias Capacitor...it's missing!_

 

I do recommend this little mod most highly... You may end up with your amp sitting up in the air on 4 legs like mine is now, but it's worth the lack of visual aesthetics. This mod is probably more important than any other I've done. The amount of definition it brings to the music is the greatest yet.

 Based on A_A's advice, I placed two 16V 680uF _motherboard_ (Nichicon HM) capacitors in the position shown in his fingernail photo in the Bravo thread. I have no idea if smaller capacity caps would make any difference in the sound. All I know is that each tube has sonic nuances that have not been apparent before. As good as I thought the amp sounded before, it sounds better now... cleaner, smoother and much, much more precise. I understand what he says about the sound having more "punch" now. It's due to the precision that each instrument and voice exhibits, especially percussion instruments. 

 This mod really allows each tube to shine. "Bass" tubes have more profound bass. 3D tubes have more precise environments. Soundstages are larger. The top end seems expanded. I could go on, but I think I'll just enjoy the music

 Only caveat I have is to make sure that the capacitors are oriented correctly: positive toward the socket with the cap stripe toward the volume knob.


----------



## ovrclkd

Well I finally found time to do the mods on the (6N11) Indeed. I use the 10K for the PS (really enhanced base (?) then added the Bias caps and bought "stands" from lowes so the caps clear.
  I have the IRF510 Mosfets for it and am wondering if the will make a noticable difference on the 6N11 . The bias caps really brought the amp out! It has NO trouble driving the 702's. 
  BTW I'm running a '65 mullard in it .


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The IRF510's made a noticeable difference on my Bravo. Cleaned up the high range even more. You will need to give
  them at least twenty hours of burn in before they really start to sound their best though.
  
  Quote: 





ovrclkd said:


> Well I finally found time to do the mods on the (6N11) Indeed. I use the 10K for the PS (really enhanced base (?) then added the Bias caps and bought "stands" from lowes so the caps clear.
> I have the IRF510 Mosfets for it and am wondering if the will make a noticable difference on the 6N11 . The bias caps really brought the amp out! It has NO trouble driving the 702's.
> BTW I'm running a '65 mullard in it .


----------



## Judge Buff

I've got the mother lode of Indeed/Bravo info, pm me for details... Easy bias info, etc. I'm only 1/3 through one thread, but these guys are into these little amps as heavy as we are apparently. This may not be a revelation to most of you, but it was to me as I haven't been there in a long time. I haven't gotten far enough to know if they are modding heavily as the early pics look to be stock.
   
  I'd post the url, but I didn't know if hf would get po'd and ban me. Lecky's countrymen seem to be the most involved in the forum...


----------



## gurusan

my switching 2A indeed PSU blew up. Opened her  up and the KA3842A SMPS controller was all black and obviously had gone kaput :/ Looked like some chinese no-name manufacturer so ordered a Fairchild-Semiconductor KA3842ACS along with 2 Panasonic FC 470uF 35V caps that do some final smoothing on the 24V end of the PSU to replace some crapola stock ones.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





gurusan said:


> my switching 2A indeed PSU blew up. Opened her  up and the KA3842A SMPS controller was all black and obviously had gone kaput :/ Looked like some chinese no-name manufacturer so ordered a Fairchild-Semiconductor KA3842ACS along with 2 Panasonic FC 470uF 35V caps that do some final smoothing on the 24V end of the PSU to replace some crapola stock ones.


 

 Gurusan, let us know how that repair goes, as I was comparing my Indeed 2A to the smaller Bravo 1A that came with my daughter's new V2 today. The Indeed was obviously quieter. If mine goes belly up, I want to try and fix it, too... just for the #%(( of it!


----------



## gurusan

well it didn't go well. I replaced the DIP8 chip and it still didn't work so gave up and scoured ebay for a replacement PSU.

 I found a Powersolve 2.5A 24V switching PSU. It's much larger and heavier than the stock indeed one. It sells for nearly 40GBP on Farnell but i got it for 6.50 shipped brand new on the bay
 http://uk.farnell.com/powersolve/psg60-12/adaptor-60w-12v/dp/1176763

 I measured the output and it puts out 24.5V under load....and the amp sounds wonderful.


----------



## Judge Buff

Good on ya! What all have you done to your Indeed, mod wise?
  
  Quote: 





gurusan said:


> well it didn't go well. I replaced the DIP8 chip and it still didn't work so gave up and scoured ebay for a replacement PSU.
> 
> I found a Powersolve 2.5A 24V switching PSU. It's much larger and heavier than the stock indeed one. It sells for nearly 40GBP on Farnell but i got it for 6.50 shipped brand new on the bay
> http://uk.farnell.com/powersolve/psg60-12/adaptor-60w-12v/dp/1176763
> ...


----------



## gurusan

Upgraded PSU cap to a 4700uF Nichicon KW, Mullard 6922, changed out a small filmcap by the psu for a wima....bypassed some other caps with a few film caps.
   
  And changed the push-switch to a toggle switch.


----------



## maverickronin

I've got one of the new new G2s with a 6800uF power cap, IRF 510 MOS-FETs, and the 6922/12AU7 selector switch.  I'm liking it a lot so far.  It does much better with my low Z 'phones than my HD650s though.  Those sound much better from my Maverick D1.
   
  I've tried a few different tubes in it so far.  I bought it (secondhand) with an Electro-Harmonix 6922EH.  It sounded pretty good, without roll offs on either end and a little bit of that tube magic.  The Sylvania JAN 6922 was much better to my ears.  It had a hair or two of roll off at the ends, but it's very smooth and has plenty of that tube magic.  The Sylvania Gold Brand 5814A is also quite excellent.  It has a very noticeable treble roll off, which makes it unsuitable for some headphones, but is very, very smooth.  The smoothest of the three mentioned.  I like the JAN 6922 best with my SE530s and the Gold Brand 5814A best with my SR80s and XB700s.  The Gold Brand and the SE530s are an amazingly smooth combination, but the combined treble roll off is to much for even my treble-shy tastes.
   
  Now a quick question.  Does anyone know if the bypass cap mod (across the trim pots) compatible with the G2?


----------



## Judge Buff

I have my trim pots bypassed with 100uF caps on my G2. I also have a Sylvania GB 5814 that is very nice with the G2.
  
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I've got one of the new new G2s with a 6800uF power cap, IRF 510 MOS-FETs, and the 6922/12AU7 selector switch.  I'm liking it a lot so far.  It does much better with my low Z 'phones than my HD650s though.  Those sound much better from my Maverick D1.
> 
> I've tried a few different tubes in it so far.  I bought it (secondhand) with an Electro-Harmonix 6922EH.  It sounded pretty good, without roll offs on either end and a little bit of that tube magic.  The Sylvania JAN 6922 was much better to my ears.  It had a hair or two of roll off at the ends, but it's very smooth and has plenty of that tube magic.  The Sylvania Gold Brand 5814A is also quite excellent.  It has a very noticeable treble roll off, which makes it unsuitable for some headphones, but is very, very smooth.  The smoothest of the three mentioned.  I like the JAN 6922 best with my SE530s and the Gold Brand 5814A best with my SR80s and XB700s.  The Gold Brand and the SE530s are an amazingly smooth combination, but the combined treble roll off is to much for even my treble-shy tastes.
> 
> Now a quick question.  Does anyone know if the bypass cap mod (across the trim pots) compatible with the G2?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I have my trim pots bypassed with 100uF caps on my G2. I also have a Sylvania GB 5814 that is very nice with the G2.


 

 Cool, thanks!


----------



## gurusan

Just getting ready to move back to the USA (Portland, OR), and snapped some pics of my indeed amp to sell. I started writing the FS thread and just couldn't finish it! I can't bear to sell this little beauty so it's coming with me!


----------



## lazybum

Hi im thinking of getting one of these tube amps. I noticed indeed sells them with different tubes. May i know if they are all the same except for the tube that comes with them? And if so does this imply that it is compatible with any 6dj8, 12au7 tube? 
   
  Sorry quite new to tubes here.


----------



## maverickronin

There's a switch with two positions.  One for each type.


----------



## jc22c

yes there are beauty.
   
  and how about T-2010 TUBE AMPS from MIT I have see it in this forum but it is disappear.
  but it is say that can change tube in the same circuit no need change any component.
  It seems very fun.and can change tube o change sound.
   
  Is any can give a link web to see it. thanks.


----------



## Judge Buff

Lazybum, the G2 is compatible with both the 6 and 12 series of valves. It really is great for rolling tubes. I'd recommend getting the 6n23p version as the 6n23p is a very good valve and will give you a good "baseline" for comparing other tubes. It's also cheaper...


----------



## lazybum

Ok ill be hunting for one. The price of these amps seem to be pretty high nowadays. From the previous posts it seems that it used to be possible to get those bravo or indeed amps for under $40 shipped. Now they're almost always above $55 shipped.


----------



## Judge Buff

That was true for the first generation of both Indeed and Bravo amps, but I got my Indeed V2 for <$15 plus shipping. I got my G2s for about $50 each shipped.
  
  Quote: 





lazybum said:


> Ok ill be hunting for one. The price of these amps seem to be pretty high nowadays. From the previous posts it seems that it used to be possible to get those bravo or indeed amps for under $40 shipped. Now they're almost always above $55 shipped.


----------



## HK_sends

Judge Buff,
   
  Was it you that said the Sylvania 5814 was a good tube to try?  It's a 12 series, right?
  Waiting for my G2 6n23p version as we speak...
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## Judge Buff

I really like the 5814 tube type period. It was made for the military and is made to mil specs. It does have a higher filament current draw than a 12au7 or 6189. I have a Sylvania Gold Brand 5814 that is very nice and smooth with awesome detail. The GB is (was) a higher quality version with gold pins (typically). But the real winner in this tube for Sylvania are the the "black plate" versions. If you can find a balanced one of those for less than $20, you've done very well. RCA black plates are great, too. The best ones date back into the 1950s. I have several that are one year younger than I am... from 1956.
   
  Look around... they are out there and they can be had cheaply. The 5814 and 6189 are both variants of the 12au7. You can't go too far wrong with either.
  
  Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> Judge Buff,
> 
> Was it you that said the Sylvania 5814 was a good tube to try?  It's a 12 series, right?
> Waiting for my G2 6n23p version as we speak...
> ...


----------



## HK_sends

Thanks for the info!  My 5814 tube doesn't have gold pins but at this stage (toob noob), it'll do.  I'll keep an eye out for the other tubes as well.
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## Judge Buff

I thought it was time to show y'all what my G2 actually looks like:
   



   



   



   



   
  The exposed wires are positive contacts for measuring bias voltage (nominally set around 13V for all tubes). I apologize for the pictures' lack of quality, especially on the bottom pcb shot. Oh, the led on the tube bottom isn't blue... it's UV. If you have questions, PM me.


----------



## Splinter Cell38

Does anybody know how this amp compares with the FiiO E7/E9?
  I want to get my first real amp and I'm torn deciding between the two.


----------



## Timodeus

Thanks, did it. Grand lush sound


----------



## Cya|\|

Anybody can compare the g2 with the new g3?


----------



## HK_sends

Quote:


cya|\| said:


> Anybody can compare the g2 with the new g3?


 
  Whoa!  There's a G3 now?
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Anybody can compare the g2 with the new g3?


 
  I once asked Indeed about the differences?
  It seems that unless you need the pre-out, they seem to recommend the G2.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I once asked Indeed about the differences?
> It seems that unless you need the pre-out, they seem to recommend the G2.


 
  No No no, the G3 has the IRF 510 mofsets, and those help with Treble Roll offs, the G2 might have those as well but... newer is usally made to fix problems with older stuff... still review on it's way for G3


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## Makiah S

http://www.head-fi.org/t/642250/review-indeed-g3-modded-hybrid-tube-amp
   
  My review of the amp, mine has slight mods to it but still... a new take on this amp for those who are still curious about how it sounds!


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