# MHDT Havana DAC



## Turn&cough

Anybody checked this out yet? As a former Paradisea owner I'd be curious to hear how it compares.
MHDT Havana


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## Fing

I currently own a Paradisea+ and if it's a definite upgrade, then I'd certainly want to get one too 

 I think they're great little units.


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## Turn&cough

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I currently own a Paradisea+ and if it's a definite upgrade..._

 

At roughly 40% more I would like to think it is.


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## elnero

I had a Dialogue II quite a while back, one of the things that bugged me about it was it was very noisy, I wonder if he's fixed that with these newer DAC's.


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a Dialogue II quite a while back, one of the things that bugged me about it was it was very noisy, I wonder if he's fixed that with these newer DAC's._

 

they did.


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## Towert7

Wow, so this is cool. Gotta say I kinda miss the all acrylic look, but the metal looks nice too.

 I wonder if this is targeted as an upgrade over the Paradisea.
 If it is, I may just have to get myself one to compare.

 Thanks for the info Turn&Cough


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## charley phogg

I find it a shame it doesnt do hdcd, especially for that amount og money. But htats just me.


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## Fing

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, so this is cool. Gotta say I kinda miss the all acrylic look, but the metal looks nice too.

 I wonder if this is targeted as an upgrade over the Paradisea.
 If it is, I may just have to get myself one to compare.

 Thanks for the info Turn&Cough_

 

Please do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I wish there was more info actually about how these are designed and especially whether the USB interface has been updated.


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wish there was more info actually about how these are designed and especially whether the USB interface has been updated._

 

Haha, even if I did get it I wouldn't be able to tell you those things.
 I can only say how I think it sounds.

 I do want to purchase it.


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## pftrvlr

The concept of leaving out op-amp and using tube buffer in DAC is just what I am looking for. But I balk at the 900 price tag.


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## pftrvlr

Did some more digging and found something here 

diyAudio Forums - PCM56P with tube output stage non oversampling dac opinion

 Looks like that the circuit or design idea has been around for sometime, and is becoming popular again?


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## Towert7

I have asked to purchase one when they have it ready. The Havana is targeted as an upgrade over the Paradisea+, so I am very interested to compare it with my Paradisea (because I absolutely love my Paradisea+). This should be a very nice comparison. 

 Boy, I wonder what the 
 Havana > Woo WA5-LE > headphone
 setup would sound like.


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## Turn&cough

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do want to purchase it._

 

So do I.
 Does anybody out there need a kidney? I'll let you have one of mine for a grand.


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## Towert7

It seems that the Havana has arrived at my home. I get home tomorrow. This should be a fun week!

 I'm very excited.


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## Fing

Damn - that was fast!

 Nice going! Eagerly awaiting impressions


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## HDen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems that the Havana has arrived at my home. I get home tomorrow. This should be a fun week!

 I'm very excited._

 

Wow that's very nice, do you know if there any more available? I'm interested in a comparison between the Stello DA100 signature and this one, they're in similar price tags as well...


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## musicmind

Towert7, hope you like it.
 I'd be keen to hear how you rate it's sound, especially since I have the Woo WA6 as well. 

 Happy listening


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## Towert7

Sadly, I'm a college student and *maybe* get 5 hours to really listen to music a week, so don't expect anything from me anytime soon unless it's very obvious.

 I have no idea if they have any more units. Best thing to do is check their e-bay account or send them an e-mail.


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Towert7, hope you like it.
 I'd be keen to hear how you rate it's sound, especially since I have the Woo WA6 as well. 

 Happy listening_

 

Thanks, I hope it's another solid upgrade.


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## Towert7

It arrived fast mid week last week, but I only got home on Friday. I brought it back to my system today and just started to listen to it.

 You know, this is the first DAC where I can _actually_ A/B it with another DAC and notice an instant difference.
 On one song I listened to the opening and noticed that the Havana threw a sound to the far right, whereas the Paradisea+ really didn't focus on this (it almost went unnoticed). As such, the Havana created a different 'effect' that was not present on the Paradisea+. If this is any indication of what's to come, I will be very happy. 

 The highs also sound a little more present and detailed vs. the Paradisea+.

 I'm going to keep listening and see what else I noticed.

 ^_^!!!!!!!!!

*Some pics:*













 The brushed aluminium is very fancy! It is very similar to my GS-1, and will look very nice stacked on top. 
 Overall build quality is top notch as always.


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## Towert7

You know, I gotta say that I'm very giddy. You know when you go through your music collection at random, and each song sounds new..................... Yup, that's what it has been so far.


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## MrLA

how much does this dAC cost include shipping to usa?

 from what i can tell the layout looks pretty much like the paradisea. what are the differences? any jitter spec?


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## musicmind

Great looking DAC Towert7, glad you are hearing improvements over your Paradisea+. Which input have you been using it with?


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great looking DAC Towert7, glad you are hearing improvements over your Paradisea+. Which input have you been using it with?_

 

Thanks musicmind.
 I use the coax input.


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## Towert7

Playing another song and A/B'ing between the two I noticed the same effect happening as before. Sounds that are placed a far distance away carry with them the sense of space on the Havana, while my Paradisea+ doesn't highlight them (they are almost not even there). This gives the music a new sense of dimensionality, and can create a whole new effect to the music that wasn't there on the Paradisea+.

 I am amazed that I am able to hear these night and day differences on certain songs with my headphones. I wonder how it would sound on speakers.

 The Havana is a more detailed and spacious sounding DAC vs. the Paradisea+ with overall better sonic refinement. Most certainly an upgrade in my book.


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## MrLA

towert7, next step, you need to do compare your havana to the popular dacs such as lavry da10 and benchmark dac1.


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrLA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_towert7, next step, you need to do compare your havana to the popular dacs such as lavry da10 and benchmark dac1._

 

Haha, you arrange it so that I can get a hold of a Lavry da10 and benchmark dac1 and I would be happy to. ^_^
 Sadly, that is not too likely.


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## nopietns

Doesn't the tube buffer output make the sound somewhat slow?
 Or is the tube in this DAC working different than the tubes in amplifiers?


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## Fing

Picked one up and been listening to it since Wednesday.

 A very definite upgrade from the Paradisea+ and I agree with TowerT7's comments about spaciousness, detail and refinement. I'm using the USB input from my computer.


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## aljordan

I also have been listening to the MHDT Havana for about six weeks. I don't have the Paradisea but I do have both a Benchmark DAC 1 and a Lynx Studio 2B. I'll chime in with some observations.

 First, I swapped out the stock tube with one recommended on the MHDT web site, and this has made somewhat of a difference in detail and overall tonal balance. I did a lot of listening back and forth between the Havana and the Benchmark. While the Benchmark didn't seem to care much about what input is being used, the Havana sounds slightly cleaner using the coax input over the USB and optical inputs. I can also hear differences between sources using the Havana even when driving the same coax input on the DAC, I suppose this is because the Havana does not resample and reclock the input stream as the Benchmark does. 

 Regarding a comparison between the Benchmark and the Havana, the Havana is very nearly as detailed as the Benchmark, has more midbass presence (or midbass thickness, depending on your point of view), and more midrange presence. While I can't pick out background noise with the Havana, music still appears to emerge from a quieter background when listening through the Benchmark, although for me this difference disappears when using a source such as the M-Audio Delta 410 card in my PC. I think this is again probably due to the Benchmark being less sensitive to jitter.

 It is worth mentioning that in the crude measurements I took of both DACs, the Benchmark measures far better than the Havana. Hence I think the Benchmark would excel at it stated purpose, which is primarily a DAC for monitoring while mixing and mastering.

 I've briefly described some of the qualitative differences I hear in the two DACs, but haven't yet described which DAC I prefer and why. In my opinion, the Havana is a far more satisfying DAC when sitting back and listening to music. The first reason is that the added presence in the midrange sounds closer to what I hear in live venues. Both percussion instruments and stringed instruments sound like real instruments in space rather than being thin and wispy. The second reason has to do with timing, and is harder to describe. In comparison to the Havana, the Benchmark seems to homogenize subtle timing details and dynamic inflections to the point that they are not noticeable. The Havana reproduces such subtle details extremely well. I am a drummer, and when I listen to excellent percussionists through the Havana, I can hear the sticking so well that I can see, in my mind, the type of sticking that the drummer must be doing in the performance. I can't pick out the same timing and dynamic details when listening through the Benchmark. I think it is these details that allow me to easily get into the music and the groove when listening to the Havana. When listening via the Benchmark, I tend to focus on the sounds, but not get into the music.


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## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aljordan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am a drummer, and when I listen to excellent percussionists through the Havana, I can hear the sticking so well that I can see, in my mind, the type of sticking that the drummer must be doing in the performance. I can't pick out the same timing and dynamic details when listening through the Benchmark. I think it is these details that allow me to easily get into the music and the groove when listening to the Havana. When listening via the Benchmark, I tend to focus on the sounds, but not get into the music._

 

Fantastic comments.

 I stumbled around saying very nearly the same thing earlier today when a certain acquaintance of mine expressed curiosity regarding the difference between oversampling and non-oversampling DACS.

 My words, comparing an oversampling DAC to my Paradisea+, were thus: 

_"Bottom line, I constantly found myself being wowed by the sound effects as opposed to the music. Like I was playing a video game instead of listening to my favorite band."_







 I'm a long time musician and studio recording guy myself and I'm now on the non-oversampling DAC team.

 I want to hear music and my own MHDT Paradisea+ provides it quite richly.

 ...

 Funny thing ...

 I quite nearly groveled trying to get the MHDT folks to mail me a Havana to demo against my Paradisea+. Needless to say, they didn't bite ... but otherwise have been exceptional folks to deal with.

 I remain utterly intrigued by what differences the Paradisea's OPAMP-free, bigger brother might render to my ear, though and once my bills are caught up, I'll most likely be trying to devise some means of getting on.



 Thanks for your comments ...


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## btbluesky

As a proud owner of a paradisea+, I didn't even know the Havana existence until now. Just email the guys in TW, and hopefully can make the purchase soon.

 A NOS tube DAC without opamp, are there even other similar DAC out there with the same architecture to compare at all?


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## bdh

Make sure you order an LM Ericsson or Tung-Sol 2c51 tube now also, or you may be disappointed. The stock tube they supply sucks.


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## btbluesky

I have a pair of NOS Raytheon 5670 and tungSol for paradisea, haven't try the WE. Since I intend on using full tube, not sure if the WE w/ its high price is good in a already full tube system.


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## bdh

I have a WE. I prefer the TungSol in my MPX3 to it. And the LM Ericsson in the Havana and also in the Extreme, more than the WE. But of course it could well be dependent on the rest of the system.


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## btbluesky

Just got the quote from the guys. $799 including shipping (promotional price).

 Now I have no idea how much better it is than the Paradisea, but if its like some comments on audioasylum say, I believe it's worth the $200 extra. 

 Was gonna get the Keces 151 for the office, but now with this. Gonna use the paradisea+ for office, and Havana at home. Oh my...

 Plus from some of the history price I saw on audiogon, paradisea never dip below 20% (actually most 10-15%).

 And after hearing NOS against over sampling, I'm a believer.


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## Orcin

Good job, bravo! We'll be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Havana vs. the Paradisea.


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## btbluesky

Man the guys in Taiwan sure got their stuff together, got my Havana and been listening to it for the last couple hours.

 And it's just one word, SWEET!!!







 I don't know what they do, but man this thing got some nice sound.
 The BIGGEST difference I notice right away is the fluidity, the dynamic, have improve over paradisea+. I have both a SS and Tube amp, in both cases, I can tell the sound is more fluid(which itself is already a tall order comparing to paradisea). Female vocal come across as more musical (I only had time to test female vocal, since I listen it the most).

 Since I already have another Raytheon 5670, the next thing right away is to roll it in to replace the GE stock.






 Immediately it improve the detail, there are more air to it. I can imagine how the singer move their mouth/lips when singing. It is definitely a audible step up with this little tweak. Also the gain increase slightly.

 Since I only got it for 2-3 hours, more time is needed to really A/B it with paradisea+. Plus I'd need to pair this up with a Trafomatic Head One(still waiting) to breath some life in the DT880.

 But I feel like in this mid-fi setup of mine where price/performance is #1 goal(warm and musicality is second), this pricy little DAC is still reign king. The $200 is worth the price just for that detail and air it brings.

 My thinking is this: a good USB->SPDIF card is $150 itself, a good tube amp is 6-700 (an 10 yr old Cal Lab Sigma 12ax7 DAC is selling for 4-500 on the bay). OR to go another route, a good SS Dac like a Keces 151 is 370(no USB) + a good tube buffer/impedance matcher is a good $200. You get all these in one package for a good 750 (800 shipped). 
 I don't have the privilege to attain shows to audition other highend DAC, but from what I hear the paradisea Non over-sampling DAC's performance can blow everything else less than 1k away musicality wise. In Paradisea it was already true, now with a bit more resolving power and air, I don't know where else I can get all this for this price.

 P.S. since I do not have a decent CD player, I just used Amarok with CD-rom for CD testing.

 System used:
 Linux Flac, Linux CD
 Havana (Zu Cable Bok, Zu Cable oxyfuel RCA)
 Jolida 1501 100WTube/SS
 Jolida JD1000A 100W 8xEL34 Tubes (Signal Magic power cord)
 Ascend Sierra 1 (QED SILVER ANNIVERSARY XT)


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## mrarroyo

It sure looks nice. However at $800 (promotional price) it is getting up there in price. I recently bought a Monarchy Audio NM24 DAC which Mr. Poon has on sale in Audiogon for $1080.

 The Monarchy is both an SS and a Tube output DAC w/ a tube Line Stage which I felt it was a very good deal. I would love to compare the sound of both. Mostly because I love the sound out of NOS DACs.


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## Turn&cough

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I would love to compare the sound of both. Mostly because I love the sound out of NOS DACs._

 

*X2*


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## btbluesky

Sweet deal for 1k. WIMA caps, Alps knot. If there is a USB circuit, it'd top the scale. 

 Too bad anything over 1k would trigger the wife-alert....


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## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too bad anything over 1k would trigger the wife-alert...._

 


 Please explain how you got this setting so high. My wife-alert is stuck at $250, and I cannot seem to tweak it any higher!


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## btbluesky

For me the trick is to buy her something that's over $100 when shopping w/ her, say a pair of earring, and then right when the dopamine still in effect for her, tell her you just got a small upgrade for "._..just a couple hundreds, honey_". 

 The female brain would interpret this as very reasonable as you already got her a gift in 3 digits.

 Obviously over 1k doesn't work, OR if she's an accountant.


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## Orcin

Ahhh... there's my problem. She has a MBA in Finance.


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## btbluesky

...In that case, there are no tricks that'd work. Just need to come clean of our addition and take the beating once in a while.


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## arnaud

I have had a mixed experience with the Havana...

 The good part: MHDT Lab. I do not think I have ever gotten better customer support than with Lin-Li and Jiun-Hsien. 

 How it started: I expressed some interest for the Havana through email exchange with MHDT Lab. Next thing I knew, a package from China was knocking at my door. I HAD NOT EVEN PAID FOR THE UNIT!! Actually, I believe that part was a mistake, but Lin-Li did not freak out or anything, he was patient.

 Meanwhile, the bad part of the story comes... Unlucky me, I happen to have several audio tracks that just did not sound right with the Havana. To cut the story short, I would hear significant hiss and "crackle" on the right channel when the music balance was toward the left channel (thus right channel supposed to be quieter).

 We worked through various potential culprits like a bad tube (fortunately I had a spare TungSol, and it exhibit the same issue), computer related issue (but this happened regardless of the input and on both my imac and PC laptop), faulty DAC (I flipped the left and right channel DACs but that did not solve / flip the problem).

 Next big surprise, I receive a SECOND unit by mail (I still haven't even paid for the first one)! Talk about no compromise customer support! Unfortunately, this time, the noise was on the left channel.

 I finally sent both unit backs to MHDT lab, sadly because apart from this issue, I actually truly love the sound of the DAC (it beats the cr*p out of my Black Cube Linear built-in DAC). Very detailed, smooth, deep soundstage, honest bass, dynamic, basically lifelike.

 Now comes my 2 cents question to you Havana owners... If you happen to have any of the following audio tracks, do you notice anything like I did?

 1. "Touch" from Christopher Hardy on "This is K2 HD Sound": the opening bell sounds highly distorted on the right channel (like it's going through a guitar distortion unit or something!). 

 2. Beginning of "Monsoon" on Jack Johnson's "Sleep through the static": the hiss and "crackeling" noise is clearly present on the right channel and modulated by the left channel signal (intermittent keyboard).

 3. I have a few others but that's an old french audio test CD so nobody is going to have that... I can provide the wav files to anyone who wants them though...

 Note that I created "flipped version of the tracks" with left and right channels inverted. I thought that maybe that would make the hiss / distortion switch to the left channel. But that was not the case, still the problem is heard on the right channel (with the original DAC unit they sent).

 When I sent the units back to MHDT (and they reimbursed me the shipping fees by paypal! Kudos MHDT), I included and audio CD with the above excerpts. I haven't heard from them (I feel for them though, as they spent so much time for my case already). 

 My conclusion at this time, is that unfortunately, there might be a flaw in the design philosophy of the DAC... In particular, I can imagine you can have a more transparent signal by including the minimum amount of processing after the D/A conversion, such as skipping low pass filtering. But in my experience with the Havana, I have a feeling the low level distortion / noise heard on the right channel (or left depending on the unit somehow) might be an illustration of the spurious noise not filtered by the DAC. But man, I would be curious to see measuremements on the DAC because I could CLEARLY hear the problem, so we're not talking -80dB noise here, maybe -20dB at most!

 Anyhow, Havana owners, I am hoping to hear your experience!

 Arnaud.


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## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnaud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_illustration of the spurious noise not filtered by the DAC. But man, I would be curious to see measuremements on the DAC because I could CLEARLY hear the problem, so we're not talking -80dB noise here, maybe -20dB at most!

 Anyhow, Havana owners, I am hoping to hear your experience!

 Arnaud._

 

That's so wierd.

 Wonder if any Havanah owners could chime in regarding that anomaly. 

 I've practically begged Mouse to send me a Havanah for demo but he' never responded.

 My Paradisea+, which obviously shares a very similar architecture to the Havanah, certainly has no distortion in either channel. And I'm about as clinically nit picky as it gets.

 Thanks for the info.


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## Killercrush

Did you tried it with the Coax input instead of USB ?! Maybe the USB input is faulty.


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## Towert7

My first Havana had static in the right channel (which is what I based my initial impressions off of). It was funny, because that was the channel that I noticed huge improvements over the Paradisea+ (a very big difference between the two)!

 I received a second unit that did not have the static, but it also didn't sound as revealing out of that channel. I wasn't sure what to make of it, and I'm still not sure. I think it is what you have experienced Arnaud.

 Either way though, I use my Havana as my main DAC, though the second unit (static free) sounds similar to my Paradisea+. I've been very very busy now that I started graduate school, so I have not had enough time to compare the two using my speakers, but on headphones any differences (if any) are very subtle.

 I love the way the Havana sounds. It has that beautiful and luscious mid range which I've come to associate with MHDT labs!


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## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Killercrush* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you tried it with the Coax input instead of USB ?! Maybe the USB input is faulty._

 

Yes indeed, it was one of the first comments of MHDT Lab. I actually tried both USB and optical out of the imac. Then tried USB out of laptop PC. Finally used coaxial from M-Audio FireWire Solo soundcard. Same problem in all the configurations and regardless of the source sample rate...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's so wierd.

 Wonder if any Havanah owners could chime in regarding that anomaly. 

 I've practically begged Mouse to send me a Havanah for demo but he' never responded.

 My Paradisea+, which obviously shares a very similar architecture to the Havanah, certainly has no distortion in either channel. And I'm about as clinically nit picky as it gets.

 Thanks for the info._

 

I can send ftp links to sample files to any MHDT owner who sends me a p.m. I created 30sec sample for "Monsoon" (5MB wav file) and 1min sample for "Touch" (10MB wav file). If you want to check with your Paradisea, let me know.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received a second unit that did not have the static, but it also didn't sound as revealing out of that channel. I wasn't sure what to make of it, and I'm still not sure. I think it is what you have experienced Arnaud.

 Either way though, I use my Havana as my main DAC, though the second unit (static free) sounds similar to my Paradisea+. I've been very very busy now that I started graduate school, so I have not had enough time to compare the two using my speakers, but on headphones any differences (if any) are very subtle.

 I love the way the Havana sounds. It has that beautiful and luscious mid range which I've come to associate with MHDT labs!_

 

Looks like you got lucky. Unfortunately, second unit had the static on the left channel for me... I concur with the midrange of the Havana, it's really hard to go back to Lehmann DAC or the M-audio Firewire Solo... Both these sound identical to me, there's no much magic going in, it sounds dry compared to the Havana.


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## btbluesky

PM sent. I can test it with my Havana. Mine's been doing great. Compared it with my paradisea+ (before changing BB opamp), and it was more dynamic and fluid. I love it.


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## MONVMENTVM

Meh... that makes me quite sceptical. I ordered a Havana some days ago and wanted to pay it tomorrow.


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## cooperpwc

Btbluesky, there actually is another non-OS DAC that doesn't use an op-amp: USB Monica uses the Rudolf Broertjes' SS I/V Gain Stage. It's a lovely DAC - warm and musical - and at about $350 including Super E black gates, it's also excellent value.

 (Edit: Monica 3 is the coaxial version.)


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## rad212

I have been listening critically through my WA 6 and HD 600's today. I don't hear any static issues however I don't hear much difference between the Havana DAC being fed by my Rega Apollo and the analog outputs of my Apollo. I have tried some tube rolling and still not much difference between the Havana and the Apollo CD player even through my Melody I880 integrated amp and my Gallo Ref 3's. 

 In comparison, a number of years ago when I got a Perpetual Technologies P3A and had it modded by Dan Wright (Modwright)- it totally blew away the sound compared to my Pioneer PD-65 CD player.

 Just my opinion for now. Unless the Havana needs more break in time, I don't see it as a giant killer - either that or the Rega Apollo is the real giant killer considering I bought it new when it first came out for $995 and the Havana was $799.


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rad212* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_a giant killer_

 

Rad, what are the giants?
 In addition, do you own any of the giants you will list?


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## rad212

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rad, what are the giants?
 In addition, do you own any of the giants you will list?_

 

Giant Killers are pieces of gear that cost a little $$ and sound better than much more expensive $$$ pieces of gear ie, a DAC that cost $800 sounding as good as those costing $2000. Like the statements in this review of the Paradisea:

mhdt paradisea


 Just like I said in my post- for my money the Rega Apollo is a far better value to me than the Havana. I really thought the Havana, a dedicated NOS tube DAC with no Op Amps and no digital filters at $800 would trounce a CD player like the Apollo costing $995....


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## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rad212* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Giant Killers are pieces of gear that cost a little $$ and sound better than much more expensive $$$ pieces of gear ie, a DAC that cost $800 sounding as good as those costing $2000. Like the statements in this review of the Paradisea:

mhdt paradisea


 Just like I said in my post- for my money the Rega Apollo is a far better value to me than the Havana. I really thought the Havana, a dedicated NOS tube DAC with no Op Amps and no digital filters at $800 would trounce a CD player like the Apollo costing $995...._

 

Nono, I know what a Giant killer is.
 I'm asking you what you consider the Giants are.
 If the Havana will be a Giant killer, which Giants are they killing?

 And, do you own any of the giants you will list?


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## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rad212* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been listening critically through my WA 6 and HD 600's today. I don't hear any static issues however I don't hear much difference between the Havana DAC being fed by my Rega Apollo and the analog outputs of my Apollo.._

 

If the Havana and the Rega Apollo sound the same (as you say) and you think the Rega Apollo is a giant-killer, I don't see how you can think that the cheaper Havana is not equally a giant-killer...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ... Maybe you were expecting too much from it?


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## tubes

I had a Rega Apollo for a short time (yes it was burned in) and could not get by the steely highs and sold it. Not trying to dump on the Rega but there are documented operational problems where they do strange things, Doug Schneider a reviewer with an on-line mag. documented problems with 6 consecutive Rega players, not my idea of a giant killer.

 Phill


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## btbluesky

I've just tested the 4 files, 30 secs, and 1 mins. They're all okay with my Havana. Seems you were just unlucky.


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## Torero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rad212* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Giant Killers are pieces of gear that cost a little $$ and sound better than much more expensive $$$ pieces of gear ie, a DAC that cost $800 sounding as good as those costing $2000. Like the statements in this review of the Paradisea:

mhdt paradisea


 Just like I said in my post- for my money the Rega Apollo is a far better value to me than the Havana. I really thought the Havana, a dedicated NOS tube DAC with no Op Amps and no digital filters at $800 would trounce a CD player like the Apollo costing $995...._

 

Hi Rad, i don't understand that you consider the Paradisea+ like a Giant Killer but not the Havana being better than Paradisea+.

 What is your impression of Habana+WA6 combination? valvule+valvule sounds good? or better a ss dac?

 Thanks.


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## uhcmos1

Great looking DAC Towert7, glad you are hearing improvements over your Paradisea+. Which input have you been using it with?


----------



## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've just tested the 4 files, 30 secs, and 1 mins. They're all okay with my Havana. Seems you were just unlucky._

 

Well, it's too bad you're the only one who could test the Havana with those samples. I would have liked to understand if the problem was localized to some units or some setups.
 For instance, I was running the DAC on 100V/50Hz while I assume you're in the US? (120V/60Hz). 

 Also, maybe my amp (Lehmann BCL) has wide bandwidth and is picking that noise and amplifying it more? I guess this is high frequency noise outside audio range but through some amplification circuits, it could result in noise back in the audio range. c.f. post from Dan Lavry which I read through an other thread recently: 

PSW Recording Forums: Dan Lavry => Why do Non Oversampling Filterless DAC sound so good

 "A DA without a filter introduces image energy that is nearly as high as the energy in the audible range. In the case of non up-sampling DA, the audio content is centered at the sample rate, twice the sample rate, 3 times…. And it goes up to very high frequencies. The amplitude decay curve is rather slow…

 Assuming that you could not hear above 22KHz, you say that the image energy will not be heard. But in fact, the DA output signal, both the audio and the images at frequencies above audio must go through some electronics before reaching your ears. Such electronics may be a preamp, a power amp, a speaker, a headphone amp and a headphone… or in a music production environment the signal may be sent to an analog mixer…

 It is one thing to ask an amp, or a speaker (or whatever gear is there) to “process” a signal with energy content that is limited to 20Hz-20KHz (or say 10Hz-50KHz) accurately. It is another thing to expect accurate results when the signal contains relatively high energy at high frequencies. When you try to do that, you will find out that the image energy interferes with the electronics in many way. It degrades the transfer curve, which causes inter modulation at all frequencies including the audible ones, it can ruins circuit badly. 
 ...
 I could say much more, but those reasons are more then enough to explain that non up sampling has problems, and why no filter is bad news. 

 Regards
 Dan Lavry"


----------



## btbluesky

Different type of DAs try to achieve different things. Some do super detail and linear, other do minor euphoric coloration, some try to be ultra fast transient, other doesn't....Depends on what you do with it, one DA can be bad in an env that doesn't suit it, and w/ a diff objective.

 The fact is, there are at least 10-20 small vendors out there who have NOS products (with no digital filters, and/or minimal analog filters) that have won the hearts and ears of alot of people. 

 To dismissed something out right simply because it doesn't follow a theory that is believed to be absolute (not that anything in this world is absolute), is to me unscientific.

 Even Albert Einstein needed to revised his theories several times.
 And Newton stuff can be dead wrong when apply to atomic/quantum level.

 Oh BTW, I tested your files with Havana, and the Trafomatic Head ONE-A SET TC amp with extreme detail+ DT880 250ohm.


----------



## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To dismissed something out right simply because it doesn't follow a theory that is believed to be absolute (not that anything in this world is absolute), is to me unscientific._

 

I agree with this. I actually read about potential issues with NOS/filterless DACs only after having noticed the problem on the DAC. It got interesting when I read this actual post from Dan Lavry is it does describe exactly what I observed (like the opening bells on k2hd track with significant non-harmonic / non-pleasant distortion on one of the channels).

 Well, I am happy for you that the DAC is working fine. Can you confirm though that you did listen to the same tracks with a "standard" DAC? I am not questioning hearing, but not knowing the tracks before hand, you might not be able to pick up the problem without comparing to a reference... I knew the tracks well so it jumped at me.

 arnaud.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnaud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with this. I actually read about potential issues with NOS/filterless DACs only after having noticed the problem on the DAC. It got interesting when I read this actual post from Dan Lavry is it does describe exactly what I observed (like the opening bells on k2hd track with significant non-harmonic / non-pleasant distortion on one of the channels).

 Well, I am happy for you that the DAC is working fine. Can you confirm though that you did listen to the same tracks with a "standard" DAC? I am not questioning hearing, but not knowing the tracks before hand, you might not be able to pick up the problem without comparing to a reference... I knew the tracks well so it jumped at me.

 arnaud._

 

If designed and built right ... I can see no reason why lack of filters would result in random distortion.

 Don't take this the wrong way ... just off the top of my head.

 I'd love to read any material you might have that might support such explanations ...

 Thanks for the provocative thread/issue ... 

 As stated via PM ... my Paradisea+ ... also a completely NOS/filterless DAC ... has produced nothing but faithful representations of whatever I play through it.

 In the spirit of fun commentary ... I will say this ... those tracks suffering from errors in production (clipping, etc. at the studio level) are very obvious when listening through the Paradisea ...

 Those tracks recorded well, in turn, are reproduced very well ...

 Just some thoughts ...

 Best.

 .joel


----------



## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd love to read any material you might have that might support such explanations ..._

 

Well, it's standard theory for A/D D/A, any textbook on signal processing discusses aliasing. I do not know about electronic circuit design though, and the impact of feeding a given preamp stage with high frequency noise beside the audio signal itself.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the provocative thread/issue ... _

 

I was trying to be more constructive than provocative, but apparently, it's being perceived as such. I wish this DAC could have worked in my setup, as I said I actually loved the sound apart from that!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the spirit of fun commentary ... I will say this ... those tracks suffering from errors in production (clipping, etc. at the studio level) are very obvious when listening through the Paradisea ...

 Those tracks recorded well, in turn, are reproduced very well ...

 Just some thoughts ...

 Best.

 .joel_

 

Hahaha, amen to that, this is the reason why I provided a sample of "This is K2HD sound". If you have an issue with that particular recording / mastering, well, I don't know what to say! This is one of the best audiophile CDs I have ever come across. Frankly speaking, I am not a big fan of these K2HD CDs as far as the content, but suspecting the quality of the recording / mastering is barking at the wrong tree imho. But, I think you mentioned this in the spirit of fun commentary, you did not mean you discredit my observations. I do agree though that problems can often reside in the recording rather than the source. Just not the case here, that's for sure (as I said, the CD sounds prestine out of any other DAC I have tried).

 Thanks again for testing this out anyhow,

 arnaud.


----------



## MONVMENTVM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnaud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had a mixed experience with the Havana...

 The good part: MHDT Lab. I do not think I have ever gotten better customer support than with Lin-Li and Jiun-Hsien. 

 How it started: I expressed some interest for the Havana through email exchange with MHDT Lab. Next thing I knew, a package from China was knocking at my door. I HAD NOT EVEN PAID FOR THE UNIT!! Actually, I believe that part was a mistake, but Lin-Li did not freak out or anything, he was patient.

 Meanwhile, the bad part of the story comes... Unlucky me, I happen to have several audio tracks that just did not sound right with the Havana. To cut the story short, I would hear significant hiss and "crackle" on the right channel when the music balance was toward the left channel (thus right channel supposed to be quieter).

 We worked through various potential culprits like a bad tube (fortunately I had a spare TungSol, and it exhibit the same issue), computer related issue (but this happened regardless of the input and on both my imac and PC laptop), faulty DAC (I flipped the left and right channel DACs but that did not solve / flip the problem).

 Next big surprise, I receive a SECOND unit by mail (I still haven't even paid for the first one)! Talk about no compromise customer support! Unfortunately, this time, the noise was on the left channel.

 I finally sent both unit backs to MHDT lab, sadly because apart from this issue, I actually truly love the sound of the DAC (it beats the cr*p out of my Black Cube Linear built-in DAC). Very detailed, smooth, deep soundstage, honest bass, dynamic, basically lifelike.

 Now comes my 2 cents question to you Havana owners... If you happen to have any of the following audio tracks, do you notice anything like I did?

 1. "Touch" from Christopher Hardy on "This is K2 HD Sound": the opening bell sounds highly distorted on the right channel (like it's going through a guitar distortion unit or something!). 

 2. Beginning of "Monsoon" on Jack Johnson's "Sleep through the static": the hiss and "crackeling" noise is clearly present on the right channel and modulated by the left channel signal (intermittent keyboard).

 3. I have a few others but that's an old french audio test CD so nobody is going to have that... I can provide the wav files to anyone who wants them though...

 Note that I created "flipped version of the tracks" with left and right channels inverted. I thought that maybe that would make the hiss / distortion switch to the left channel. But that was not the case, still the problem is heard on the right channel (with the original DAC unit they sent).

 When I sent the units back to MHDT (and they reimbursed me the shipping fees by paypal! Kudos MHDT), I included and audio CD with the above excerpts. I haven't heard from them (I feel for them though, as they spent so much time for my case already). 

 My conclusion at this time, is that unfortunately, there might be a flaw in the design philosophy of the DAC... In particular, I can imagine you can have a more transparent signal by including the minimum amount of processing after the D/A conversion, such as skipping low pass filtering. But in my experience with the Havana, I have a feeling the low level distortion / noise heard on the right channel (or left depending on the unit somehow) might be an illustration of the spurious noise not filtered by the DAC. But man, I would be curious to see measuremements on the DAC because I could CLEARLY hear the problem, so we're not talking -80dB noise here, maybe -20dB at most!

 Anyhow, Havana owners, I am hoping to hear your experience!

 Arnaud._

 

Hey, 

 Today I got my Havana and my first thought was: It sounds heavenly.

 But I wanted to test the songs you mentioned. So I took Jack Johnson's "Monsoon" in FLAC and played it. So I cannot hear any distortion at all. I even took my headphones off and put just the right cup onto my ear and turned up the volume very high (as at the beginning the right channel is almost silent).

 This was tested with USB -> Havana -> standard 1.5m cable -> Trafomatic Experience Head One -> GS-1000

 But I can tell you that I hear much more details/soundstage/smoothness than going through my modded iBasso D2. For example one of the first songs I played was "Fire Above, Ice Below" from Agalloch. And I noticed for the first time the guitarist touching the strings not only the guitar tone itself. I don't know exactly how to describe it... but there are a lot of details I never heard before, while it maintains a very musical sound, quite warm and full. I wouldn't call it a analytical.

 At the moment with about 100h of burn in of the Head One and 4h of the Havana I'm really happy with the Havana/Trafomatic Head One/GS-1000 combination.

 As soon as I'll have more time (don't know if it will be this week) I'll post a more detailed review of both.


----------



## btbluesky

100% agree. I'm using Havana/Trafomatic Head One too. The DT880 is being pushed to the limit, the sound is so smooth, detail and natural, I actually sometime prefer the DT880 instead of my main bookshelf.

 The headphone setup was suppose to achieve the goal of not disturbing my family when I want some good sound. Now I use my headphone when there are no one around...funny....


----------



## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MONVMENTVM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, 

 Today I got my Havana and my first thought was: It sounds heavenly.

 But I wanted to test the songs you mentioned. So I took Jack Johnson's "Monsoon" in FLAC and played it. So I cannot hear any distortion at all. I even took my headphones off and put just the right cup onto my ear and turned up the volume very high (as at the beginning the right channel is almost silent).

 This was tested with USB -> Havana -> standard 1.5m cable -> Trafomatic Experience Head One -> GS-1000

 But I can tell you that I hear much more details/soundstage/smoothness than going through my modded iBasso D2. For example one of the first songs I played was "Fire Above, Ice Below" from Agalloch. And I noticed for the first time the guitarist touching the strings not only the guitar tone itself. I don't know exactly how to describe it... but there are a lot of details I never heard before, while it maintains a very musical sound, quite warm and full. I wouldn't call it a analytical.

 At the moment with about 100h of burn in of the Head One and 4h of the Havana I'm really happy with the Havana/Trafomatic Head One/GS-1000 combination.

 As soon as I'll have more time (don't know if it will be this week) I'll post a more detailed review of both._

 

Glad it's working for you! MHDT said it could possibly be the voltage difference (unit for designed for 110V/220V while Japan is 100V). I just wish they had a fix for me...

 As for the overall sound quality of this DAC, I agree it's very detailed while not sounding in the least bit digital.

 Send me a P.M if you want to try the other tune (K2HD CD). The problem was more obvious in this case because distortion of bell sound is easy to pick up. But again, it looks like only the units were performing wrong only in my system.

 arnaud.


----------



## XXII

Arnaud, have you tried to see if you get the same problem with another non-oversampling DAC?


----------



## s1rrah

To those who might be interested:

 ...







 ...

 Tubeworld.com has a cryo treated NOS Bendix 6385 for sale for the rather insane price of 375.00 US:

https://www.tubeworld.com/6005.htm

 ...


 Search that page on, "6385" and you'll find it.

 Considering I've passed on opps to pay 80 bucks for the same tube in the past ...

 I'm certainly not going to spend that sort of money on a Bendix 6385 but maybe your crazy enough too.



 So, FYI to you (and anyone else looking for the much bally-hood Bendix 6385 tube).

 I am only the messenger.


----------



## s1rrah

@ARnaud and others...

 I have received a MHDT Labs Havana DAC in the mail as of Oct. 21 ... 10am or so.

 And I've spent a few hours listening ( it appears to be a brand new unit ) ...

 And there's no distortion, in either channel, that I can discern.

 It's a bit more airy and spatious sounding than my tried and true Paradisea+ ... a bit more "refined" and articulate ...

 But there is no distortion as per the OP's original comments.

 ???

 Dunno.

 I'm liking it more and more every hour I listen.






 ...

 Here's some recent shots (well, from today and no later):

 ...






 ...







 ...






 ...

 More later and as I have time to demo the unit.

 But for now ...

 It sounds like my Paradisea+ ... but with a bit more detail, "air", and seperation among intruments.

 ...

 (Thanks MHDT!)


----------



## MONVMENTVM

Wow it has a slightly different design... nice!

 Btw. I still haven't paid mine. I asked them almost 2 weeks ago about their paypal account, so I can finally finish the deal... but didn't get any answer until now... weird.


----------



## shadowlord

does anybody know if there will be a havana without the tube buffer? like the constantine was the paradisea without tube buffer ?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MONVMENTVM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow it has a slightly different design... nice!

 Btw. I still haven't paid mine. I asked them almost 2 weeks ago about their paypal account, so I can finally finish the deal... but didn't get any answer until now... weird._

 

The one I got is a demo unit.

 I emailed asking if they would send one for review at the Houston Head-fi meet this weekend.

 Never heard back.

 Just got this the DAC in the mail.

 I plan on sending it back to them after the meet.

 Nice folk at MHDT, for sure.


----------



## s1rrah

Just a note for any Havana/Paradisea+ owners out there ...

 The Bendix 6385 is, by far, the best tube I've heard in the Havana (and I'm sure in my Paradisea+ as well) ...

 Utterly quiet, smooth and more detailed than the Bendix 2C51.

 ...






 ...

 Worth the 80 bucks or so that I paid for it, to be sure.

 Just a tip.


----------



## s1rrah

This just in from "Mouse" at MHDT in Taiwan.

 I got this email from him while attending the Houston head-fi.org meet earlier today.

 (I've edited out some of the expected taiwanese to english translation problems)

 ...

_Hi Joel,

 During the development and "trial testing" of the Havana DAC, many considerations needed to be taken into account.

 To us, the source of real digital music ... the center of the DAC world, is the Havana DAC ...

 So, we arrived at the name, "Havana." 

 Meaning that this DAC was all encompassing enough ... all inclusive enough of a DAC ... that it could perform well with any kind of music produced nowadays, ...  jazz, classic, rap, rock, electric ... etc.

 Some of the more important and essential aspects of the Havana DAC?: 

 It's more detailed and refined, all the while remaining musical and natural... the same general characteristics that are hallmarks of all of our NOS DACs.

AND ... a surprising fact ... though being a digital DAC, ... the Havana produces "REAL and NATURAL SOUND"

 Find yourself an instrument player such as a pianist, violinist, drummer...etc..., and let them listen to the Havana DAC ... then, let them comment on what they hear ... and you will know what I mean.

 Real instruments play real sound.

 It could be smooth, sharp, loose, edged, harmonic... 

 Whatever the originally recorded and musical qualities were/are ... that's what you get from the Havana DAC.

 The Havana uses dual PCM56P DAC chips; it is a true R2R DAC.

 FYI: We will be stopping production of the Havana within the next year due to its expensive manufacturing cost (when compared to other delta-sigma DACS).

 ...

 Otherwise ... and regarding your questions/comments ...

 There are many secrets to the Havana DAC, however, I am to busy at the moment to discuss them (I haven't even been able to post new Ebay ads!).

 If I have time later, I shall talk more of these "secrets" with you ...

 Best Regards,
 Jiun-Hsien
 Mhdt Labs_

 ...

 Ah, hell.

 I love this DAC (Havana) 

 And I _love_ talking to the designers in Taiwan.

 Their lack of English/grammatical skills not withstanding ...

 I've found everything he said about the Havana (and Paradisea+) to be on point, true and accurate.






 To "Mouse" and gang ... thanks again for your contributions to the head-fi/hi-fi scene!!

 Best.

 .joel (aka "s1rrah")


----------



## cclragnarok

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This just in from "Mouse" at MHDT in China._

 

AFAIK, MHDT is in Taiwan, not China.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cclragnarok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AFAIK, MHDT is in Taiwan, not China._

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 Honest mistake.

 Best.

 ./joel/.


----------



## Riffle

I had no problems with my copies of Arnaud's tracks. BTW thanks for turning me on to Jack Johnson's Monsoon. I was wondering if anyone out there could comment on the tubes in their Havana DAC? I seem to like the sound better immediately after I swap tubes or when I keep my DAC off and turn it on when I listen to music. If I leave the DAC on all the time and allow the tubes to settle in at their "temperature" I don't like the sound as much. At first I thought it was a mental block, but my wife has become convinced of this as well. I switch the tube out quite a bit. I have some LM Ericsson Gold Pins, Raytheon CK5670's, Ge 5-Stars and Bendix 2c51'a that are my favorites, but the issue seems to be the same with all of them.


----------



## promethk

Yes, sometimes the early impression of the tube in swapping is better than after extended on. At first, I thought it is my sub-par ac mains conditions.

 Do you think it is heat-related ?
 As I use the Havana in open top now (because of my caps mod and also dual battery mod), it seems to suffer less from this problem.

 Do you use close the case after each tube swap?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *promethk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, sometimes the early impression of the tube in swapping is better than after extended on. At first, I thought it is my sub-par ac mains conditions.

 Do you think it is heat-related ?
 As I use the Havana in open top now (because of my caps mod and also dual battery mod), it seems to suffer less from this problem.

 Do you use close the case after each tube swap?_

 

Can you please post some photos of your above mentioned mods?

 Also ... can you comment on the sonic differences that the mods made?

 Thanks!

 .joel


----------



## s1rrah

Just a quick word regarding the Havana that MHDT labs sent me for review at the Houston Head-fi.org get together ...

 As some might have suspected ... I can now not tolerate having to send the Havana DAC back and so have made arrangements with MHDT to keep it.

 Anyway ... 

 I'm posting the contents of a recent PM between myself and a fellow Head-fi user who is selling his Paradisea+ in order to get a Havana.

 I thought my very brief comments regarding the relative differences between the two DACs (Paradisea+ vs. Havana) might be of interest to others, so here goes:

  Quote:


 Wow man.

 Your gonna freak at the difference between the Paradisea+ and the Havana!

 I've spent a lot of time today doing very quick switch A/B listens between the Paradisea+ and the Havana and it's unbelievable how narrow, soft, blurry and veiled the Paradisea+ sounds in direct comparison with the Havana.

 That's certainly not a comment meant to diss on the Paradisea because it's certainly not that ... but rather, I mean to say that the Havana does indeed sound appropriate for it's 900.00 price tag while the _also very fine sounding_ Paradisea+ is quite well suited to it's lesser cost of 600.00.

 Both great DACs and both are an _insane_ value ... but the Havana indeed takes it to a whole other level.

 BTW: I did the test listening using the Bendix 6385 in both DACs.

 What's insane is that I really didn't think a DAC could get too much better than the Paradisea ... having no benchmark or otherwise to compare it too.

 But man ...

 The Havana is near crystalline in clarity compared to the Paradisea+!

 Soundstage is much better ... and, as is so often mentioned with the recabling of Senn HD650's ... it's like a thick woolen curtain (or, "veil") between myself and the music had been suddenly raised once I switched over to the Havana during the test listens.

 I wish you could keep your Paradisea for direct A/B listening ... cause it's rather astonishing.

 The differences between the Paradisea+ and Havana, though evident in all sorts of music, were nonetheless most hugely apparent when listening to quiet bits like mello solo piano work or otherwise delicately produced and communicated music ... it was like instant x2 in presence, detail and soundstage once switched to the Havana.

 That difference, again, is quite noticeable in all types of music ... but for the softer, more delicate bits where levels sometimes sink down near inaudible, ... the accessibility of the instruments and music becomes all the more greater with the Havana.

 Anyway ... just a word that its very much worth the wait and extra effort to land the Havana ... especially since MHDT is discontinuing it this year.

 Good luck.

 Best.

 .joel 
 


 Happy listening!


----------



## tk3

Sounds like your Paradisea+ was broken.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like your Paradisea+ was broken. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh, it's not broken ... it sounds fantastic ... but the Havana is certainly an upgrade.






 Seems the lack of an OPAMP circuit and the inclusion of *dual* Burr Brown PCM56P DACS really does make a pretty dramatic difference.


----------



## btbluesky

Got both Paradisea and Havana myself. To me the difference are not as night and day maybe because I already have full tube in downstream, but it's pretty noticeable, the fluidity and the dynamic are so nice, and with more detail.

 Maybe its the bendix?! I got Raytheon for both, ordered a batch of 10 russian new issues 6N3P-EV for like $1.20 a pc from Russia. Will try it out in Dec.


----------



## promethk

Havana with Duelund caps and dual battery mod.


----------



## promethk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you please post some photos of your above mentioned mods?

 Also ... can you comment on the sonic differences that the mods made?

 Thanks!

 .joel_

 






 While I was expecting a lot for the dual battery mod, especially that I don't have very good power conditions here, the immediate result is not that impressive. After one day, I added the two "golden caps" to the battery terminals, and another went by, things start to get much better. 

 I still don't have time to do a complete A/B comparison with the stock power yet, but I am very very impressed with my system right now I also have a bendix 5670 and two tungsols.


----------



## Riffle

Wow now that's some modification Promethk! I like to swap out the tube quite a bit so I run my Havana topless as well. Xcel built a 2 million dollar substation a 1/2 mile from my house so I'm not going to get into the AC line conditioning issue. What value output capacitors are you using? I'm thinking about picking up some 2.0µF / 200VDC Gen I Sonicaps to start with. The battery mod will have a miniscule WAF, so I'm stuck with AC.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow now that's some modification Promethk! I like to swap out the tube quite a bit so I run my Havana topless as well. Xcel built a 2 million dollar substation a 1/2 mile from my house so I'm not going to get into the AC line conditioning issue. What value output capacitors are you using? I'm thinking about picking up some 2.0µF / 200VDC Gen I Sonicaps to start with. The battery mod will have a miniscule WAF, so I'm stuck with AC._

 

yeah.

 I second that.

 To be honest ... I have no clue as to what the intention of that posted bit was in regards to sonics ... but I know he wouldn't run his DAC half taken apart if it didn't result in *some* sonic improvements.







 I too am tossing around the idea of a significant CAP upgrade on my havana ... but I'm just not sure which, if any, of the MHDT produced CAPS should be replaced.

 Was thinking Mundorff, Blackgate or Sonicap ...

 Just not enough info for mod n00bs like myself to make me take the plunge, yet.


----------



## promethk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah.

 I second that.

 To be honest ... I have no clue as to what the intention of that posted bit was in regards to sonics ... but I know he wouldn't run his DAC half taken apart if it didn't result in *some* sonic improvements.






 I too am tossing around the idea of a significant CAP upgrade on my havana ... but I'm just not sure which, if any, of the MHDT produced CAPS should be replaced.

 Was thinking Mundorff, Blackgate or Sonicap ...

 Just not enough info for mod n00bs like myself to make me take the plunge, yet.




_

 

Well, it is a complicated enough situation, as I was also working on my digital source, so I may not be able to pin-point the gain in sonics is 100% due to the mods in the dac. 

 Anyway, this is a short summary of the dac mod:

 Stage 1. Output coupling caps changed to Duelund copper foil 

 The Havana output coupling caps are upgraded with the Duelund vst copper foil. As the Havana already has quality film and foil caps, the replacement with Duelund caps is not night and day differences. The Duelund does sound more controlled and there is an increase of the darkness that brings out more 3D spatial quality. 

 I guess the VH teflon caps could even be better, but I am not sure if I want to spend 3 times more than the Duelund. Furthermore, mine is a lower voltage DC-designed caps and is cheaper than those reviewed in the web. 

 After about two weeks, I am still not too satisfied, so I start the dual batteries mod.

 Stage 2: Two batteries with small caps into the +&- AC9V of Havana, only slight improvement
 Stage 3: Two batteries with bigger caps & also power supply changes to the digital input source that feeds the havana, improvement in both dynamics and resolutions that I never thought possible in my system is here, finally. 

 Before the batteries mod, my Bendix does sounds too smooth and seems lack a bit of the frequency extremes and dynamics, while the tungsol is preferred as it has a bit more high frequency energy. After the mod, the Bendix is very well balanced.


----------



## Riffle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah.

 I second that.

 To be honest ... I have no clue as to what the intention of that posted bit was in regards to sonics ... but I know he wouldn't run his DAC half taken apart if it didn't result in *some* sonic improvements.






 I too am tossing around the idea of a significant CAP upgrade on my havana ... but I'm just not sure which, if any, of the MHDT produced CAPS should be replaced.

 Was thinking Mundorff, Blackgate or Sonicap ...

 Just not enough info for mod n00bs like myself to make me take the plunge, yet.




_

 

The Xcel substation comment was my poor attempt at a joke. I've never really noticed much of a difference with any of the modest AC line conditioners or power cords that I have tried. Battery modifications on the other hand have always interested me. 

 I'm pretty new to mods myself, I have only modded an Elpac power supply for my squeezebox. I've tried dozens of different tubes, except for the fabled Bendix 6385, and I'm hoping that switching the output caps will fatten the sound of the GE 5-stars a little or add a little more detail to the Ericsson gold pins. Maybe the Bendix 6385's are a better solution, but I can't find any. You have got to love this addiction...I mean hobby.


----------



## arnaud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had no problems with my copies of Arnaud's tracks. BTW thanks for turning me on to Jack Johnson's Monsoon. I was wondering if anyone out there could comment on the tubes in their Havana DAC? I seem to like the sound better immediately after I swap tubes or when I keep my DAC off and turn it on when I listen to music. If I leave the DAC on all the time and allow the tubes to settle in at their "temperature" I don't like the sound as much. At first I thought it was a mental block, but my wife has become convinced of this as well. I switch the tube out quite a bit. I have some LM Ericsson Gold Pins, Raytheon CK5670's, Ge 5-Stars and Bendix 2c51'a that are my favorites, but the issue seems to be the same with all of them._

 

Glad you discovered Jack Johnson's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Thanks for reporting here.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Arnaud, have you tried to see if you get the same problem with another non-oversampling DAC?_

 

Nope, never had another NOS DAC in my system. Also, I haven't had my current amp for so long so haven't tried any other DAC (apart from my M-Audio FireWire Solo) with it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ARnaud and others...

 I have received a MHDT Labs Havana DAC in the mail as of Oct. 21 ... 10am or so.

 And I've spent a few hours listening ( it appears to be a brand new unit ) ...

 And there's no distortion, in either channel, that I can discern.

 It's a bit more airy and spatious sounding than my tried and true Paradisea+ ... a bit more "refined" and articulate ...

 But there is no distortion as per the OP's original comments.

 ???
_

 

What can I say, I have either been unlucky twice or else there is something else fishy in my setup: 100V 50Hz voltage in Japan or the wide bandwidth of the amplifier which is picking up HF noise and somehow aliasing into the audio band. Anyhow, I am moving on, there surely is choice out there for DACs! Thank you for your promotion effort though, I would not have tried this DAC without reading about it here...

 arnaud.


----------



## s1rrah

Well, the Bendix 6385 is the hands down winner tube in my Havana.

 I was praising it before now ...

 But I just popped it back into my Havana after letting my roommate use it for a week ...

 In that period I used a Cryo treated RCA 2c51, a Bendix 2C51 and a Tung Sol 396A ... in place of my standard Bendix 6385

 And although some of those were nice, especially the Bendix 2C51 and the RCA tube ...

 The Bendix 6385 is just majestic sounding compared to all of them.

 The bass is tauter and deeper, the soundstage explodes, the highs are perfectly resolved but not irritating ... and overall ... there's a lush (even what you might call "tubey" smoothness to the mix.

 I'd said previously that the Bendix 6385 is more detailed than the Bendix 2C51 and this is true ... but I can now hear that it's also a more warm and lush tube than the Bendix 2C51 ... the differences are even more dramatic since giving up the 6385 for a week and then returning to it.

 Anyway ... 

 I just bought another one (supposedly NOS, but who knows) and will be testing it against my current one. I'll end up selling one of them to my roommate.

 Just a word to try one in your Havana (and Paradisea's) if you haven't already ...

 Best.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just bought another one (supposedly NOS, but who knows) and will be testing it against my current one. I'll end up selling one of them to my roommate._

 



 &&*$#^$%$##!!!

 Where did you find it?!?!? I've been looking for one for the past two weeks.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_&&*$#^$%$##!!!

 Where did you find it?!?!? I've been looking for one for the past two weeks._

 

Hey ...

 I got it from XXII ... he had an extra one as he bought four in one batch. 

 BTW ... 

 Once I get the new one ... and once I've decided which of the two I'm going to keep ...

 You can have the extra one for a week or so before I offload it to Micheal ...

 Try before you buy and all.

 I think XXII might have a single backup tube but he might be planning on keeping it as a spare.

 Considering the Paradisea/Havana DACs put so little power through the tube, though ... I'm beginning to think that identical backup tubes are pretty much unneeded as the tubes should last for 20000 hours or better.


----------



## XXII

PM sent Orcin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


 Actually, for the last few days I had my paradisea I switched back to the Tesla tube. I missed the impact too much.


----------



## Towert7

The Bendix 6385 are too expensive.
 Not worth more than 40$ in my book.


----------



## XXII

oooo another Havana +GS-1 user! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Towert7, can I ask what tube you use with your Havana GS-1 combo?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oooo another Havana +GS-1 user! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Towert7, can I ask what tube you use with your Havana GS-1 combo?_

 

Of course.
 I've got a old WE396A in mine.
 From the various ones I've tried all in the sub 30$ category, it was the one that I stuck with. I carried it over from my Paradisea+.

 Do you use your HF-1 with that combo?
 I really should give my HF-1 more listening time than I do.


----------



## Ricey20

I've been thinking about getting a new source recently and currently using my Cary 306 SACD as a DAC and while its the best SS upsampling I've heard, it does sound a little too digital sometimes, so I want to try a NOS DAC. There are few options on the market of course but I've narrowed it down to the Havana or RWA Isabellina but not quite sure which to get yet. Does the Havana have any pros vs the much more expensive Isabellina? Anyone happen to have heard both?


----------



## XXII

I think the only person on head-fi with an isabellina is krmathis...


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you use your HF-1 with that combo?
 I really should give my HF-1 more listening time than I do._

 

Well my main listening is with the HF-1 and I think it's a good match, even with an unmodded HF-1...


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ currently using my Cary 306 SACD as a DAC and while its the best SS upsampling I've heard, it does sound a little too digital sometimes, so I want to try a NOS DAC._

 

Whaaat?. I would look into getting a better spdif source for your Cary 306 SACD DAC. For example, I would not go with a USb-to-spdif converter, and look into better digital cables and/or interconnects/power cables. 

 Also go easy on the upsampling button on the Cary. I personally like it at 44.1 straight-up..


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whaaat?. I would look into getting a better spdif source for your Cary 306 SACD DAC. For example, I would not go with a USb-to-spdif converter, and look into better digital cables and/or interconnects/power cables. 

 Also go easy on the upsampling button on the Cary. I personally like it at 44.1 straight-up.._

 

Well I have a Empirical Off-Ramp 3 on order that I'm waiting for. I'll probably be buying new interconnects in the next few days, and I agree, I usually leave it at 44.1. Still want to try a NOS dac though, have a bit warmer contrast option to the Cary


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PM sent Orcin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 


 Ahhh, XXII is going to hook me up to a Bendix 6385, so I feel better now. Thanks!!

 He's right, I did say that I had stopped looking, but I never stopped lusting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would like to have at least one different tube to roll into the Paradisea as a change of pace from the WE396A, and to mix & match with different combinations in my amp. This or the rare Tesla are the best options.

 s1rrah: Thanks for the offer, but I am going to buy this one while XXII feels like selling.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Bendix 6385 are too expensive.
 Not worth more than 40$ in my book._

 

I'm sure my opinion is hard clad tied to my own particular system ...

 But that said ... I'd pay double the 90 dollar price of the 6385 (what I paid, anyway) if mine busted.

 It's disgustingly detailed while also having remarkable qualities in regards to soundstage, warmth and "air".

 It's head an shoulders above my former fav Bendix 2C51 (more "tubey" while also being more detailed) ... it's also far far finer sounding than all of the 396A variants I have had ... (although, I'm still craving a 1951 like Orcin has) ...

 Anyway ...

 Just another word ...

 I recently ordered a set of NOS Sylvania "gold pin" 5670 tubes and man do they suck in the Havana!

 There's some static online about these tubes ... some folks loving them and some (like myself) hating them ...

 But to my ear anyway ... they are straight up "ugly" sounding in the Havana ... dull, blurry, muddy and sluggish.

 YMMV.


----------



## Torero

One question for owners of Havana. The 2,6V of Havana output are 2,6V RMS? 

 And it accepts 24 bits or only 16 bits input data?


----------



## XXII

only 16bits


----------



## Ricey20

Hmm, I emailed mhdt about the havana 5 days ago but still haven't gotten a response. Is this normal?


----------



## XXII

Sometimes they're very quick, sometimes they're not, and sometimes a Havana just appears on your doorstep.. 

 They tend to reply more quickly in the weekend. No harm in sending another email though I guess.


----------



## Ricey20

Yep just sent another email. So how much does it cost including shipping, and does anyone have a picture of it next to something else? Saw the dimensions and it seems pretty small but would like to see a picture


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep just sent another email. So how much does it cost including shipping, and does anyone have a picture of it next to something else? Saw the dimensions and it seems pretty small but would like to see a picture 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Regarding the mailing MHDT ...

 Yes ... takes a bit for them to translate and reply to the emails. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Havana's cost 899.99 typically and shipping is generally 30 to 50 bucks depending on where you are.

 Also ...

 Here's a pic or two:

 ...






 ...






 ...


----------



## Ricey20

Ah ic. Thanks for the info and pics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Been in a transport frenzy lately. Have a Audio Sector SPDIF dac coming and considering a Havana now for a tube dac 
 Maybe even a Valab or something cheap to play around with


----------



## donunus

do they usually configure these for the country they ship to so far as voltage is concerned? or is it 220 shipped anywhere and you have to change it 110 yourself???


----------



## tubes

Internal jumpers are configurable for your country's voltage, quick and easy job.

 Phill


----------



## donunus

well I know, I was just wondering about their practices if they keep it at 220 or 110 just so I know if i really have to tinker with it before using.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do they usually configure these for the country they ship to so far as voltage is concerned? or is it 220 shipped anywhere and you have to change it 110 yourself???_

 

You tell them what you want, and you'll get it preset for your voltage.


----------



## donunus

ah ok, thanks towert7


----------



## xenithon

I've sent four emails in the past two weeks with no response. Pity, I was keen on getting one of these.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've sent four emails in the past two weeks with no response. Pity, I was keen on getting one of these._

 


 There is one for sale on eBay right now.

MHDT Havana DAC on eBay

 Do it... you know you want to.


----------



## donunus

That is actually the manufacturers selling page for the havana I think. It does say seller: mhdt labs


----------



## Ricey20

Yep, they have one listed as a bid, starting $799. I bought the other one that was listed using the live.com discount, so $200 off the havana for me


----------



## Gollie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, they have one listed as a bid, starting $799. I bought the other one that was listed using the live.com discount, so $200 off the havana for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nothing wrong with that!


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is actually the manufacturers selling page for the havana I think. It does say seller: mhdt labs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Yes, it is.


----------



## tk3

A new review here of the Havana DAC, done by the same guy who reviewed the other MHDT DACs.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A new review here of the Havana DAC, done by the same guy who reviewed the other MHDT DACs._

 

Thanks for that link.

 That's the guy who first got me hot and bothered about the Paradisea.

 I agree with his comments completely.

 Especially the improved low level resolution of the Havana, which is quite striking compared to the Paradisea.

 Also, as I've posted before ... Havana does indeed have a noticeably better soundstage and the detail is far better ...


----------



## Ricey20

Gotta say, MHDT service is good (as well as a bit weird). I bought the Havana from ebay on the 23rd but paid by e-check and it wasn't going to clear until today and guess what was delivered today? lol they weren't kidding when someone said you'll find an unexpected package soon after you give a big hint your going to buy


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gotta say, MHDT service is good (as well as a bit weird). I bought the Havana from ebay on the 23rd but paid by e-check and it wasn't going to clear until today and guess what was delivered? lol_

 

Congrats!!


----------



## XXII

Has anyone here tried/heard the havana with a stax rig?


----------



## donunus

mine is coming up and I'm gonna be using it with a stax 2050


----------



## Ricey20

Im using the Havana with my T1/O2 MK1s. All I can say is wow, it sounds much different than my Cary 306. Voices especially sound incredibly natural. My Havana isn't anywhere near being burned in yet, but it sounds VERY nice. Its also a lot smaller than I thought it would be, I'd actually label it "Cute" looking lol. Its actually quite detailed where I thought one of NOS dacs weaknesses were detail. Soundstage sounds quite expansive as well. I need to let it burn in some more though, maybe get a better tube since I hear the GE 5670 isn't exactly the greatest. I might add, the synergy with the O2s is very good, I think better than my Cary. The Cary does sound quite digital, especially after listening to the Havana, so now the music sounds a lot fuller and natural and works well with the O2 (some things through the Cary sound incredibly dry with the O2).

 Edit: Man I just cannot get over how enthralling female vocals are through this tiny thing. Oh and piano and violin sound very natural. Its hard to mimic its real tone and stuff but I think the Havana does an excellent job. So what are good tubes for the Havana? I heard the Bendix 6385 was the best but incredibly hard to find and Sylv gold pins stink 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any other good choices?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im using the Havana with my T1/O2 MK1s. All I can say is wow, it sounds much different than my Cary 306. Voices especially sound incredibly natural. My Havana isn't anywhere near being burned in yet, but it sounds VERY nice. Its also a lot smaller than I thought it would be, I'd actually label it "Cute" looking lol. Its actually quite detailed where I thought one of NOS dacs weaknesses were detail. Soundstage sounds quite expansive as well. I need to let it burn in some more though, maybe get a better tube since I hear the GE 5670 isn't exactly the greatest. I might add, the synergy with the O2s is very good, I think better than my Cary. The Cary does sound quite digital, especially after listening to the Havana, so now the music sounds a lot fuller and natural and works well with the O2 (some things through the Cary sound incredibly dry with the O2).

 Edit: Man I just cannot get over how enthralling female vocals are through this tiny thing. Oh and piano and violin sound very natural. Its hard to mimic its real tone and stuff but I think the Havana does an excellent job. So what are good tubes for the Havana? I heard the Bendix 6385 was the best but incredibly hard to find and Sylv gold pins stink 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any other good choices? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My personal opinion on tubes?

 bendix 6385
 bendix 2C51
 western electric 396A

 In that order.

 Glad your digging it.

 Tis a wonderful bit of hardware to be sure.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My personal opinion on tubes?

 bendix 6385
 bendix 2C51
 western electric 396A_

 

Tube rolling definitely matters less for the Havana compared to the Paradisea. But to my ears the Bendix 6385 is also the best sounding one.


----------



## tk3

Any source for the Bendix 6385 that doesn't cost 300?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any source for the Bendix 6385 that doesn't cost 300? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Put a WTB (want to buy) add in the for sale section here at head-fi. That's how I got mine (the first one).

 Took a month or two but I eventually got one.

 I almost pulled the trigger on that 395 priced one at tube world ... glad I didn't ... the year is quite good and I'm sure it sounds sweet as butter but the price is just insane.

 Check your PM ... I've got a Bendix 2C51 which is close to the 6385 and much cheaper.


----------



## Ricey20

Thanks for the offer sirrah. I'm trying to land a 6385 right now from someone on ebay. His quad didn't sell so hes willing to split them into singles or pairs so I've been communicating with him, cuz I sure don't want to buy 4 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If it doesn't work, I may buy the 2C51 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, has anyone compared the USB input to the SPDIF? Not sure how the USB is implemented so haven't tried it yet.


----------



## tk3

Are there any different types between the Bendix 6385?
 Sometimes people describe them just as "Bendix 6385" and others add "Red Bank TE21".

 I found a pair online here on Yahoo Auction Japan with a 5000 yen start bid and zero bids.

 The price seems insanely good and it ends in 11 hours, any thoughts?
 I wish I could go for it myself, but it´s too late to send any funds to deputy services before the auction ends.

 Edit - just saw it says the reserve price hasn´t been met yet, so it could end up being really expensive after all.
 Someone who is able to; want to give a try at bidding? The price might not be too unreasonable.
 If you don't need them yourself, I'm sure there are others out there who would buy them off you.


----------



## Ricey20

from what I've read the 6385 is coded TE-21 so they are the same. The Bendix 2C51 are TE-1, which are one of their first Red Banks (5670 is TE-9 and TE-16). 5000 yen is around $55, thats a good starting deal for 2. They are a bit hard to find but not that expensive I think. Not like EL34 XF1s which cost $300 per tube lightly used and around $500-600 NOS. I think the most I've seen a 6385 go for is around $90-100 for one. The guy who I'm communicating with were selling a quad 6385 for $385. If I can buy a pair for $180 or so I'll probably go for it and I can give you his info if you want to buy too, after I see what he's gonna do (He does live in the UK so it might be good for you, I don't know)


----------



## tk3

I might be interested in your seller, could you send the specifics in PM?

 Also, the auction I linked to has ~1 hr remaining as of now, no one going or able to make a bid on it?
 It would be a shame if the reserve was set at 7000 yen or something and no one bid on it.


----------



## XXII

It's set at least 10000 yen I think. He has sold a pair before whose reserve was 10000 yen. Just by the way, I have bought from this seller before (through kuboten) and everything was working fine.


----------



## Ricey20

I ended up bidding on the yahoo japan one through kuboten lol. I won it for 10,000 yen so came out cheaper than if I bought it from the guy I was talking to.


----------



## xenithon

Hey all. I am very interested in the Havana and am particularly enticed with the NOS sound. I'm a little weary of pairing it with a warm(ish) tube amp....any Havana owners out there with warm tube amps (such as OTL amps) and have any synergy issues?

 Also, has anyone compared the Havana to the Cambridge 840C?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey all. I am very interested in the Havana and am particularly enticed with the NOS sound. I'm a little weary of pairing it with a warm(ish) tube amp....any Havana owners out there with warm tube amps (such as OTL amps) and have any synergy issues?

 Also, has anyone compared the Havana to the Cambridge 840C?_

 

Thanks to the choices in tubes for the Havana, you have a lot to mix and match with.

 That being said, I have a solid state amp (HeadAmp GS-1) and a tube amp (basic WooAudio WA6). With my Vintage WE396A, I always prefer the presentation of the Havana + GS-1. The soundstage is preserved better as is the realism of the highs. Though, I doubt this will be of much help to you since the WA6 probably isn't the 'warmest' tube amp out there.

 It's not that the Havana + WA6 sounded bad, far from it. It is simply that it wasn't as involving as with the GS-1. With the GS-1, I get a more involving experience without any negatives such as listening fatigue, brightness, etc.

 I listen to these setups using my Sennheiser HD650, so that should be taken into account as well since it is a fairly 'warm' headphone (so to speak).


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey all. I am very interested in the Havana and am particularly enticed with the NOS sound. I'm a little weary of pairing it with a warm(ish) tube amp....any Havana owners out there with warm tube amps (such as OTL amps) and have any synergy issues?

 Also, has anyone compared the Havana to the Cambridge 840C?_

 

I echo Towert7's comment that depending on which tube you go with ... any sort of tube amp should be fine with the Havana.

 To my ear, and using a Stello HP100 SS amp, I don't find the Havana to be too terribly "tubey" sounding. It's very smooth, easy on the ears, natural (almost analogue sounding) while retaining a darn respectable amount of detail.

 Again, those traits can be emphasized or detracted from depening on tube choice.

 I've heard a couple person's now comment that they felt the Havana isn't that affected by tube choice but I've found the exact opposite to be the case ... from tube to tube, I notice fairly dramatic differences.

 Depending on the tube amp, if you stick with a decently resolving tube like the Bendix variants or even an RCA 2C51 ... then I'd expect the Havana to be fantastic with a tube amp.

 BTW: if any current Havana owners want to hear just how bad it *can* sound and if you cover shipping, I'll send you a NOS Sylvannia Gold pin tube to try/have. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Whooo, does it ever sound nasty in the Havana!


----------



## Ricey20

I received my Signal Cable order consisting of one of each of their silver resolution line minus the power cable. All I can say is WOW, these are much better a match for my Havana + T1 amp than my Blue Jeans was. Its incredibly transparent and detailed and adds a little bit more bass tightness/slam, resolution, and "emotion". I love it, when I first got my BJC I was never "wowed" like this, except that they were almost dirt cheap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This combination is very satisfying for me (just need the 6385 now), so what type of ICs are you guys using with the Havana?


----------



## xenithon

Much obliged - thanks for those impressions.

 Has anyone compared the Havana to the 840C perhaps? I believe they should be quite different in terms of character; but do you think they play in the same sonic league? (detail, control, refinement, etc.)


----------



## Ricey20

I used to own an 840c. It was a superb unit for the price. You are correct in they sound incredibly different from one another. They are in the same league in control I think but the 840c was brighter and more detail sounding than the Havana, which is why many consider it cold and analytical. It was good paired with a warm tube amp. The Havana is more refined and musical and while it's not quite as detailed as the 840c it still isn't a slouch either. Control was about the same on both I think with the 840c having a bit more slam. Resolution I don't remember enough of the 840c to say. Havana does have a bit of warmness and smoothness to it, probably because it uses tubes. If I remember the 840c, I think I prefer the Havana to it, you just get lost in the music while the 840c was brighter and detailed it was harder to not analyze and listen hard at everything.


----------



## xenithon

One more quick question - has anyone used the Havana with an OTL amp? I have read about some hum issues with the Havana and Paradisea which has been attributed to impedance mismatches with certain amps.

 Cheers,
 X


----------



## donunus

Was there a problem with the havana specifically? The manufacturer explains that it could be the acrylic casing of the paradisea which lacks grounding or something like that. The havana has a metal enclosure though so it is possible that the problem only exists with the paradisea


----------



## tk3

That's kind of too bad if it causes issues, I think the transparent case looks more interesting and unique.

 Anyone have pictures of the tube glow through the front panel of the Havana?


----------



## xenithon

Thanks all. One final question, which I have not managed to find out yet here or on the A'gon forums, is regarding high-res data. Specifically, I believe the Havana can accept up to 24-bit/96kHz, but since it is a 16-bit DAC, what does it do to that data? Does it discard the extra bits? Does it negatively impact SQ? My Macbook is normally set to output all data at 24/96; I also have quite a few audio files (hi-res downloads, e.g., Linn) which are 24/96.

 Also, I have read that NOS DACs like the MHDT are more sensitive to transports. Would a Macbook outputting digital optical be ok? It would be using a Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII digital optical cable (I prefer optical to USB).

 Cheers,
 X


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have pictures of the tube glow through the front panel of the Havana?_

 

Yea, when I get home I'll put some up.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was there a problem with the havana specifically? The manufacturer explains that it could be the acrylic casing of the paradisea which lacks grounding or something like that. The havana has a metal enclosure though so it is possible that the problem only exists with the paradisea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've had both the Constantine USB+ and the Paradisea+ and they didn't have any grounding issues.


----------



## xenithon

Thanks for that info Towert. I see you are hooking up the Audigy to the DAC - do you stick to 16/44.1? Are there any issues or negative effects if you upsample and output at 24/96?


----------



## rlpaul

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that info Towert. I see you are hooking up the Audigy to the DAC - do you stick to 16/44.1? Are there any issues or negative effects if you upsample and output at 24/96?_

 

Wouldn't upsampling at the soundcard defeat the purpose of buying an NOS DAC?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that info Towert. I see you are hooking up the Audigy to the DAC - do you stick to 16/44.1? Are there any issues or negative effects if you upsample and output at 24/96?_

 

I actually have foobar2000 take the 16bit stream and padd it to 24bit, with a sampling rate of 44.1kHz.
 I really can't hear any noticible difference between 44.1 and 96, so I leave it at 44.1.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea, when I get home I'll put some up._

 

I just noticed I don't have any pictures of the tube glow in the Havana.
 I'll have to take some.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had both the Constantine USB+ and the Paradisea+ and they didn't have any grounding issues._

 

Wanted to also say that having had an early version Paradisea (non USB) and a newer Paradisea+ before getting my Havana ... I never noticed any hum either ... and that's with some rather sensitive Grado RS1's ... 

 The Havana is similarly clean sounding ...

 FYI.


----------



## Gollie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One more quick question - has anyone used the Havana with an OTL amp? I have read about some hum issues with the Havana and Paradisea which has been attributed to impedance mismatches with certain amps.

 Cheers,
 X_

 

I don't know if it was an impedance mismatch exactly but I did have a level of floor noise that for me was uncomfortable. It was only really audible when the volume was off.

 Since getting the 840C I can tell you that I am amazed by the sound. 2 months ago I was still using a Beresford MKIII. The Paradisea was an amazing upgrade and I thought the detail and musicality of the unit was perfect for my ears.

 Fortunate for me (unfortunate for the pocket book) I found a great deal on an 840C. Since the upgrade I can say that I am in love with the CDP. Not only because of the CDP but because the of DAC that I can run from my PC.

 It is more detailed than the Paradisea w/ Bendix 6385. The floor is dead silent. I only have to turn my MPX3 up to around 9 o'clock to reach my comfort level (11 or 12 w/ the Paradisea). The oversampling provides exactly what I was looking for with my upgrade cycle. Some might call the sound analytical because it is very accurate but I find the sound to be very enjoyable. I have about 50 hours on the unit now and I feel that it is worth every penny I paid for it. Deep accurate bass with transparent musical highs. The 840C is a winner.


----------



## xenithon

Gollie - do you find it bright? Or more specifically, can you use the 840C for long-term listening without inducing any fatigue?

 Havana owners - anyone find it too soft for their tastes (and can tube rolling alleviate that)? Specifically, do you find it missing any dynamics/punch or a little curbed at the frequency extremes.

 BTW, my frame of reference: found the DAC-1 too bright/clinical/sterile; found the Mini-DAC to be about right in terms of warmth/musicality/punch.


----------



## Gollie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gollie - do you find it bright? Or more specifically, can you use the 840C for long-term listening without inducing any fatigue?

 Havana owners - anyone find it too soft for their tastes (and can tube rolling alleviate that)? Specifically, do you find it missing any dynamics/punch or a little curbed at the frequency extremes.

 BTW, my frame of reference: found the DAC-1 too bright/clinical/sterile; found the Mini-DAC to be about right in terms of warmth/musicality/punch._

 

Personally, I don't find the sound to be to bright. I love the fact that it really brings out some of the background detail in my classical music or how it gives extra life to what were recessed Jazz instruments with my Paradisea. Some people really don't like upsampling DAC's but the 840c really fits my tastes.

 Also, I really don't like burning classical music to Flac or Apple lossless. I will, but it is not preferred because I can't seem to get a very high bit rate. When I play the tracks through the CDP, I don't have to adjust my volume like I do when playing lossless files. I do think this is a user error on my part. I might be doing something wrong. I only get between 6-700kb/s with classical and 800-1kb/s with most of my other lossless files.


----------



## xenithon

IIRC the bitrate has nothing to do with the quality of the file - that is, lossless is lossless. The bitrate is determined by how much _musical information_ is in the track. For example, a complex symphony may have a lot of data which is compressed and results in a higher bitrate; a quiet instrumental track will be far lower. In either case though, the quality should be identicaly.


----------



## tk3

Got my Havana today, paid on the 26th last month, and it was 2 days in customs, so pretty fast shipping.
 Can't try it yet though, since I have to take it home as I have no cables here.

 They even sent an extra GE tube besides the one that was already socketed.
 If I wanted to roll the tube, is it possible without taking off the cover?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They even sent an extra GE tube besides the one that was already socketed.
 If I wanted to roll the tube, is it possible without taking off the cover?_

 

No, you risk a chance of breaking both the tube and possibly the socket with the cover on.
 Just take the cover off (4 screws) and grab the tube at the base and gently wiggle it out.


----------



## tk3

Okay, thought so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Thanks for the info.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Havana owners - anyone find it too soft for their tastes (and can tube rolling alleviate that)? Specifically, do you find it missing any dynamics/punch or a little curbed at the frequency extremes.

 BTW, my frame of reference: found the DAC-1 too bright/clinical/sterile; found the Mini-DAC to be about right in terms of warmth/musicality/punch._

 

I too found my first DAC purchase (a Musiland MD-10) to sound unnaturally detailed and bright. As mentioned in previous reviews ... I found myself constantly wanting to analyze and pay attention to the "sound effects" as opposed to becoming transparently and absolutely involved in the music.

 Mind you, this is with my particular audio chain, which ultimately culminates/terminates with the notoriously finicky Grado RS1's ... so who is too know what another set of phones would have yielded with the MD-10? Just didn't work for me ...

 The Havana, however, was a revelation in musicality with my particular gear.

 No other way to say it. I was suddenly entralled with music again and all of the emphasized, near effects laden features of my previous DAC simply melted into a lovely, very detailed, rich and musical experience.

 The same held true for the Paradisea+ that I had prior to the Havana but the Havana took it to the next level in regards to transparency, detail and soundstage while still retaining the very musical qualities of the Paradisea.

 I've heard similar descriptions of the DAC1 as those you use above; I've also heard others claim it as sonically perfect to their ear.

 What I've found to be most true when reading the 100's of review pages of 100's of different DACs is that generally you are in a NOS/analogue-esque camp, where naturalness ease and realistic detail are preferred ... or you are in the oversampling camp where analytic, near clinical (but still fun because of it) sound and razor sharp detail are preferred.

 Myself? I'm in the NOS camp for sure.

 I've played live music and listened to live music for two decades and to my ear, the NOS sound is the sound that best represents what I'd hear in a real physical room with real physical players.

 But that's just me, so take all that with a healthy pinch of salt.

 This game is as fun as it is because of the diversity of opinions and gear ... so to say one thing is the penultimate ... or even the ultimate ... to me is near blasphemous.

 Have fun.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have pictures of the tube glow through the front panel of the Havana?_


----------



## Ricey20

I agree with S1rrah. The Havana sound is intoxicating. Now I'm wondering if there's any even higher end NOS dacs out there, like a balanced version with XLRs?


----------



## tk3

Hey nice pics, thanks.


----------



## Ricey20

I picked up a WE2C51/396A to tide me over until I could get a 6385. Already its slightly more detailed and smoother than the stock tube. I loved the Havana with stock tube, love it even more now. Just waiting for my stinking 6385 to be shipped to kuboten now.

 I'm loving the NOS dac sound. Wonder if MHDT will make an even higher end dac sometime down the line.


----------



## xenithon

Hi all. I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to try out the 840C at home this weekend....a private seller was kind enough to entrust the player to me to help with the decision.

 Rather than go off-topic about it here, I've started a new thread in case anyone is interested.


----------



## donunus

I just got my havana and was wondering what to do to make it sound its best... besides burn in which I'm doing now. Any particular asio driver and setting etc when using it with my laptops usb???

 I am using windows vista and was wondering if asio will benefit the sound at all. I put the asio dll in the components folder in foobar and it doesnt seem to do anything. It doesnt detect any asio devices even with the usb dac connected and working


----------



## Ricey20

Well, finally received my Bendix 6385s. They are in REALLY good shape, none of the wording on the tube is even the slightest bit smeared like my other old tubes. And they DO sound good, better than my WE 396A. They add a bit more detail, the bass seems to be a bit better controlled, it adds a bit of air to things, and decay seems to be more to my tastes. Very nice sounding.

 Now who was it that PMed me that wanted to buy the other tube since I bought a dual? I recently cleaned out my PMs and now I can't find it


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, finally received my Bendix 6385s. They are in REALLY good shape, none of the wording on the tube is even the slightest bit smeared like my other old tubes. And they DO sound good, better than my WE 396A. They add a bit more detail, the bass seems to be a bit better controlled, it adds a bit of air to things, and decay seems to be more to my tastes. Very nice sounding.

 Now who was it that PMed me that wanted to buy the other tube since I bought a dual? I recently cleaned out my PMs and now I can't find it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Do you have a year for the tube manufacture? I might be interested ...


----------



## Ricey20

How do I find out the year? Also I'd like to give whoever it was who PMed me first a shot first, since it seemed they really wanted one for their new Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also have to add, I received my Audio Sector NOS DAC that cost me $410. Its based on the TDA1543. All I can say is WOW. This thing sounds incredible for the price. Its slightly more detailed than the Havana and not quite as warm and doesn't have the tubey smoothy goodness but does seem to have more impact though the Havana is much more romantic sounding and better still, especially with the 6385(guess basically tube vs SS), still very nice. I think this sounds better than my Cary 306 and my previous 840c & Stello DA220. Either that, or I'm just a NOS guy now


----------



## donunus

After 3 days burn in... and listening to the ge and we tubes, I can say that the WE definitely gives a more human quality to voices. The 396A makes reference recordings shine more than the stock ge tube. When listening to fast paced music though, my quick impression is that the ge tube sounds more like it is a solid state dac in that it has a faster dryer sound. The GE is better for rock music that doesnt need a human quality to the sound as much as it needs speed. Now anxiously waiting for the Bendix 2c51


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After 3 days burn in... and listening to the ge and we tubes, I can say that the WE definitely gives a more human quality to voices. The 396A makes reference recordings shine more than the stock ge tube. When listening to fast paced music though, my quick impression is that the ge tube sounds more like it is a solid state dac in that it has a faster dryer sound. The GE is better for rock music that doesnt need a human quality to the sound as much as it needs speed. Now anxiously waiting for the Bendix 2c51 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I find your comments on the stock tube vs. the 396A to be *exactly* as I would describe it.

 BTW: the Bendix should be there in 5 to 6 days.

 Great tube. Didn't want to sell it but figured with the low power draw that the Havana puts through the tube ... my 6385 will probably last for the life of the DAC.

 Post some thoughts re: Bendix once you get it ...


----------



## Ricey20

or don, you could go for
Translated version of http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e83547474






 1964 packaged in November. Sadly my boxes only say 6385 and no package date and year.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do I find out the year? Also I'd like to give whoever it was who PMed me first a shot first, since it seemed they really wanted one for their new Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

tk3 told me that he was getting a Bendix off you so I think it should be him...

 About tubes, I've now gone back to preferring the Tesla 6CC42 compared to the Bendix 6385. I guess I prefer a less laid-back more warm sound (but at the expense of detail).

 S1rrah: Is there any difference between the Bendix 6385 I sold you and your original one?


----------



## Ricey20

Ah, ya I believe it was him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Yea, I like warm but only to a point. Too much seems too muddy to me. I like a nice balance of warm, smooth, detail so the 6385s seem perfect for me. And I find it odd that my box has 6385 printed on the cardboard flap while others have the entire info printed on the box.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find your comments on the stock tube vs. the 396A to be *exactly* as I would describe it.

 BTW: the Bendix should be there in 5 to 6 days.

 Great tube. Didn't want to sell it but figured with the low power draw that the Havana puts through the tube ... my 6385 will probably last for the life of the DAC.

 Post some thoughts re: Bendix once you get it ...




_

 

Thanks for selling it to me. I'll post impressions within a day of receiving it. The dac will probably also be ready and burned in enough by then


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_or don, you could go for
Translated version of http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e83547474






 1964 packaged in November. Sadly my boxes only say 6385 and no package date and year._

 

starting bid of 1000 yen meaning around 10 dollars for a 6385. Wow!


----------



## Ricey20

Man, been listening to the Havana with the 6385. I've never been this satisfied with my setup before, its a new feeling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It just sounds so right. I guess I should say, FINALLY.


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_starting bid of 1000 yen meaning around 10 dollars for a 6385. Wow!_

 

Yep, I bought mine for 10,000 yen in the end. It comes out to around $65 for one after fees through Kuboten and such. Still very worth it IMO. Mine came with a spec sheet for the 6385 too for some reason lol.


----------



## donunus

when we compare the bendix 2c51 and the 6385, are we talking minor differences in sound quality? or are they a bigger change in quality than the 2c51 vs the stock ge tube


----------



## Ricey20

not sure, I went from a WE396 to the 6385. Don't have a bendix 2C51. I do agree with my WE396 it was already a very noticeable difference to the stock GE tube. The stock tube is ok, but theres apparently way better. Now I want to try a 6CC42, but I'm in no hurry.......yet


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, been listening to the Havana with the 6385. I've never been this satisfied with my setup before, its a new feeling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It just sounds so right. I guess I should say, FINALLY._

 

Wow, that's amazing!
 Glad you are throughly enjoying your new Havana.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_when we compare the bendix 2c51 and the 6385, are we talking minor differences in sound quality? or are they a bigger change in quality than the 2c51 vs the stock ge tube_

 

As I've mentioned in previous PM's ...

 The Bendix 2C51 and the Bendix 6385 both share the notorious Bendix detail, air and soundstage ...

 But that said ... and regarding the certain and quite peculiar Bendix 6385 that I'm using (peculiar because the logo on the tube is different from the standard/most popular Bendix logo) ... I find that my 6385 is a bit more lush and "tubey" sounding than the Bendix 2C51 that I sold you, Donunus ...

 That said, though ... they both sound amazing in my Havana ... so enjoy the tube. As I mentioned before ... I originally wanted to hold on to the 2C51 Bendix tube, for posterity if for nothing else ... but I figure my 6385 will last plenty long.

 BTW:

 @XXII ...

 I liked my original Bendix 6385 better than the one I bought from you.

 It is slightly warmer, thicker and more relaxed than the one you shipped me while also retaining the uber refined detail and soundstage that both tube variants exhibit.

 No offense ... but I think my original Bendix 6385 is an earlier variant than the 1964 version you sent me.

 BTW: My roommate purchased it from me for the same price I paid you ... and he loves it. He's using it 24/7 with his MHDT Paradisea DAC, for what it's worth.

 So everybody wins!






 Best ya'll.


----------



## donunus

ahh cant wait! hehehehe got a feeling i'm really gonna love the bendix


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I've mentioned in previous PM's ...

 The Bendix 2C51 and the Bendix 6385 both share the notorious Bendix detail, air and soundstage ...

 But that said ... and regarding the certain and quite peculiar Bendix 6385 that I'm using (peculiar because the logo on the tube is different from the standard/most popular Bendix logo) ... I find that my 6385 is a bit more lush and "tubey" sounding than the Bendix 2C51 that I sold you, Donunus ...

 That said, though ... they both sound amazing in my Havana ... so enjoy the tube. As I mentioned before ... I originally wanted to hold on to the 2C51 Bendix tube, for posterity if for nothing else ... but I figure my 6385 will last plenty long.
_

 

You know what? one of my tubes looks like the more normal 6385 with the lettering on the tube centered, but the other one I have has the "Bendix" name off center and bit larger font I think. Is this what your talking about? Which one is the more lush to you?

 Also, the one with the centered lettering was tested to have a higher mA, 4.53/4.54 compared to 4.36/4.16 of the one thats off-centered.
 I might have to compare the 2. If they do sound different, I might have to hold on to both.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know what? one of my tubes looks like the more normal 6385 with the lettering on the tube centered, but the other one I have has the "Bendix" name off center and bit larger font I think. Is this what your talking about? Which one is the more lush to you?

 Also, the one with the centered lettering was tested to have a higher mA, 4.53/4.54 compared to 4.36/4.16 of the one thats off-centered.
 I might have to compare the 2. If they do sound different, I might have to hold on to both._

 

Here's a pic showing the difference between my current fav 6385 and the other one I bought:

 ...






 ...

 Strangeness for sure.

 But I like my original tube best.


----------



## Ricey20

Hmm, the other one I got is like the 3rd but off center. The one I'm using is like the 3rd one though. Let me take a picture of it.

 Edit: Here. Its completely off center. Not sure if its any different.


----------



## tk3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tk3 told me that he was getting a Bendix off you so I think it should be him...

 About tubes, I've now gone back to preferring the Tesla 6CC42 compared to the Bendix 6385. I guess I prefer a less laid-back more warm sound (but at the expense of detail).

 S1rrah: Is there any difference between the Bendix 6385 I sold you and your original one?_

 

Yes, that was me.

 About the different Bendix 6385, I asked a guy about that who had them for sale, and he said this about them:

  Quote:


 I have current stock 5pcs BENDIX 6385 Red Bank Type TE21
 in Military Boxes(7,000 Japan yen each) .

 Also, I have current stock 48pcs BENDIX 6385 Red Bank Type TE21
 in Military Boxes(6,000 Japan yen each) .

 These either tubes are same internal construction and same printed on tubes.
 These either tubes are NOS(New Old Stock) and good condition.
 But these either tubes are different in Military boxes.

 Tubes of 7,000 Japan yen cost are in the military boxes of detailed descriptions.
 Tubes of 6,000 Japan yen cost are in the military boxes of simple descriptions. 
 

He says the print is the same though, which is not the case on the pictures below.


----------



## Ricey20

maybe my off-centered one was made in 1960 New Years and someone was drunk


----------



## xenithon

Hey guys. I have read up on the recommended tubes and the two talked about a lot are the WE396A (warm, lush, slightly soft at the extremes) and the Bendix 6385/2C51 (clean, crisp, detailed). However, I wanted to ask what you guys thought about the more common tubes, such as:

 - RCA black-plate D-getter
 - RCA "Command" series
 - Raytheon 5670 black-plate
 - Raytheon 5670 windmill getter

 Cheers
 X

 PS. other than the Japanese auctions, where else do you source the 6385?


----------



## Fairbanks

If you can get hold of the GE JG 5670 from the 1950s it is a great cheap alternative to the Bendix 2C51.Either square getters or D getters.They sound very simulor to the Bendix 2C51 and nothing like the later production GE 5670.


----------



## Riffle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys. I have read up on the recommended tubes and the two talked about a lot are the WE396A (warm, lush, slightly soft at the extremes) and the Bendix 6385/2C51 (clean, crisp, detailed). However, I wanted to ask what you guys thought about the more common tubes, such as:

 - RCA black-plate D-getter
 - RCA "Command" series
 - Raytheon 5670 black-plate
 - Raytheon 5670 windmill getter

 Cheers
 X

 PS. other than the Japanese auctions, where else do you source the 6385?_

 

Here's my tube list, the ones I listen to the most are at the top, YMMV. I love female vocals and small venue live jazz through my Havana.

 LM Ericsson 2C51 Gold Pin. My favorite, smooth, detailed an involving. Brent Jesse is asking $100 for this tube. At the $25 I paid it's an absolute steal!

 GE 5-Star 5670WA - The detail champion, but this tube can sound a little thin an analytical on some vintage or vocal recordings.

 Bendix 2C51- This tube provides a very happy middle ground between the Ericsson and the GE 5-Star.

 1950's Raytheon JRP-5670 & 1964 CK-5670 Grey Plate Windmill Getter- A great tube top to bottom. Not quite as smooth or detailed as the Ericsson. For $7 this has the best price to performance I've found.

 1950's Tungsol 2C51 - This is a very rich, balanced tube. It would rank higher if not for the loss in detail at both frequency extremes.

 RCA Command - Maybe a notch below the Raytheon and Bendix in terms of detail. Overall a very good tube for the $7 these can be had for.

 WE396a - Too much mid emphasis for me. However, to my ear no tube sounds better with Beatles recordings and some other recordings of that era. I may have got a crap pair off of Ebay though.

 Havana stock tube - not bad at all, I used it for burn in. 

 6N3P-E & DR - A decent tube for the price, but a liitle bit off in the mid range to my ears. They seem more smeared than smooth.

 I have one more order to place through my tube supplier. I'll ask him if he wants to deal with quite a few more audio nuts like me. He still has 21 Bendix 2C51's at $15 a pop and tons of other great tubes, although I bought his entire stock of Ericsson gold pins!. A great company to deal with and the guy is selling his tubes below market IMHO.


----------



## XXII

wow, Riffle, thanks for your detailed analysis!


----------



## mmwwhats

anyone have idea about the new DAC chip they chose for the Havana (the Burr Brown PCM56P)? In the positive-feedback.com article reviewing the Paradisea+, he hails praise on the legendary status of the DAC chip in the Paradisea+ (the Phillips TDA1545A) and the fact that a similar variant is used in the $15K Zanden DAC. Does anyone know why they chose a different DAC chip for the Havana, or anything about that DAC chip in particular?


----------



## Towert7

Two pictures from a local Head-Fi meet featuring a Havana Setup ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## xenithon

Thanks for the excellent tube tips _Riffle_ and that eye-candy _Towert7_.

 Other than Japanese auctions, anyone have a good source for Bendix tubes (either 6385 or, preferably, the 2C51)?


----------



## Ricey20

I don't think so. The most recent one that I saw from uk ebay was a quad for like $85 starting for each. There's also a tube shop that has a cryo one for $300ish. So far the most reasonable ones I've seen are from Japan auctions.


----------



## xenithon

Thanks Ricey. Also heard good things about the Raytheon's - I see there are two version, the "regular" black-plate which is relatively inexpensive, and the more costly windmill getter version. Either seem easier to come by than the Bendix.


----------



## xenithon

I had one more quick question to ask regarding the Havana - did you guys notice a significant difference with burn in? I have read a few impressions, of both the Havana and its sibling the Paradisea, mentioning a closed-in (somewhat claustrophobic) sound which subsequently opens up with 30-50 hours or so. Did you guys experience this with the Havana?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had one more quick question to ask regarding the Havana - did you guys notice a significant difference with burn in? I have read a few impressions, of both the Havana and its sibling the Paradisea, mentioning a closed-in (somewhat claustrophobic) sound which subsequently opens up with 30-50 hours or so. Did you guys experience this with the Havana?_

 

I wouldn't call it "claustrophobic" by any means ... 

 But I did notice a pretty big difference after 200 hours play time.

 Mostly, the sound smoothed out a bit ... I was demo'ing my brand new Havana against a 1000+ hour burnt-in Paradisea and the Paradisea, at first, sounded a lot more liquid and lush whereas the Havana, though having obviously better soundstage and detail, sounded a bit thin and just the slightest bit edgy compared to the well used Paradisea.

 That changed, however, quite dramatically, after a proper period of burn-in.

 After two hundred hours or so, the Havana was just as liquid smooth and inviting as the Paradisea only better due to it's retention of the much better detail and soundstage.

 So short answer (IMHO): Burn in makes a bid difference with the Havana.


----------



## s1rrah

Anybody looking for a Havana ... MHDT just put one up on Ebay recently: Mhdt Labs PCM56P Non-OS USB Tube DAC - Havana - eBay (item 120354087122 end time Jan-22-09 15:16:24 PST)


 ...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone have idea about the new DAC chip they chose for the Havana (the Burr Brown PCM56P)? In the positive-feedback.com article reviewing the Paradisea+, he hails praise on the legendary status of the DAC chip in the Paradisea+ (the Phillips TDA1545A) and the fact that a similar variant is used in the $15K Zanden DAC. Does anyone know why they chose a different DAC chip for the Havana, or anything about that DAC chip in particular?_

 

The Burr Brown PCM56PK DAC chips is equally well regarded in the audio world.

 The main difference (and I'm by no means an expert) is that the Paradisea variants use a single DAC chip which contains both channels and the Havana uses a single DAC chip for each channel. 

 If somebody with a bit more technical expertise could chime in and comment on why one DAC (Paradisea) uses one DAC chip and the other (Havana) uses two DAC chips, it would be appreciated.

 I know one thing that MHDT Lab's designer told me was that the Havana was a "true R2R DAC design," which is a pretty much well established and liked DAC design that's been around for quite some time and supposedly offers lower noise and greater accuracy over designs ("String DAC", etc.) which use OPAMPS.

 There's a good review of the Havana (by a guy who previously very favorably commented on the Paradisea) here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...abs_havana.htm

 He sums up many of the subtle but definite differences in the two DACs in his article.

 Best.


----------



## donunus

Just got your bendix S1rrah, my god. the we396 is crap compared to this. This is articulate, juicy and extended not rolled off and fragile sounding like the 396


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got your bendix S1rrah, my god. the we396 is crap compared to this. This is articulate, juicy and extended not rolled off and fragile sounding like the 396 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

It's funny how some people can prefer one over the other so much.
 Donunus, do you strive for a detailed system, or a 'warmer' system that is easier to listen to?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got your bendix S1rrah, my god. the we396 is crap compared to this. This is articulate, juicy and extended not rolled off and fragile sounding like the 396 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Glad you got it okay ... 

 It's a good'un to be sure ... 

 enjoy.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's funny how some people can prefer one over the other so much.
 Donunus, do you strive for a detailed system, or a 'warmer' system that is easier to listen to?_

 

I love both detail and warmth. The WEs are not that much warmer than the bendix, they are just noticeably less crispy and more rolled off on top. Maybe if I had some beyers I might prefer the WE396


----------



## Towert7

I enjoy the WE396a out of my HD650, but I'm thankful when I switch over to my HE60. With the HE60, I can't take any more treble.


----------



## donunus

hmm in that case you might not like the bendix. It is not neccesarily brighter though(as in 6-8khz bright), it just adds the last octave(10 to 20khz) back to the music. Still sounds like a tube dac though and is less bright than my stock pioneer dvd players highs even with the bendix.


----------



## s1rrah

Just a heads up to anyone looking ...

 A nearly new Havana just came up on Audiogon for $780.00 ...

 (I am only the messenger)

AudiogoN ForSale: Mhdt Labs Havana DAC


----------



## s1rrah

I need some assistance identifying the fuse size in the Paradisea/Havana DACS ...

 I'm contemplating ordering one of these: 






 Here's a link showing the sizes: *https://www.thecableco.com/product.php?id=3496*

 But I'm not sure which size I should get. 

 Could somebody look at those fuse sizes on the above linked page and let me know which size is appropriate?

 Also ... would slow or fast blow of that high-fi fuse type be best and why?

 Thanks for any assistance ...

 .joel


----------



## Towert7

Joel, If you open the top of your Havana and, with the power off and it unplugged, you take out the fuse, you should be able to see what it is. It should have the voltage rating and current rating written on the metal ends, and you can take a ruler and measure how long it is.

 Slow blow vs. fast blow depends on how critical the fuse should be. If you want it to blow with any increase, buy the fast blow. I would suspect these dacs use a slow blow type so they are more forgiving.


----------



## coldkeith

Can you leave this dac on all the time?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coldkeith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you leave this dac on all the time?_

 

I know of a fellow who leaves his on 24/7 ...

 That said ... I turn mine off when not home and leave it on full time when I'm at the house.

 I spent a good penny on my Bendix 6385 tube and even though the power being run through the tube stage is such that the tube should last the life of the DAC, I still want to preserve it as much as possible.

 But the DAC, even when run full time and what not ... doesn't get too hot to leave on ...


----------



## coldkeith

Thanks


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coldkeith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you leave this dac on all the time?_

 

yes


----------



## donunus

Towert7... There is a reason after all that the we396a was made... It is the future prediction of WE that akg was gonna make the k701 hahaha. The k701 really benefits with this tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It gives a good improvement with the k701s highs


----------



## Towert7

That's interesting that you are enjoying it with the K701. I've been enjoying both of my WE396A tubes with my HE60. Both a vintage JAN version and a late production WE396a.


----------



## XXII

I just received my cryoed we 396a which I bought off ebay. Waiting to burn it in a bit before forming an impression. Towert7, what are the differenced between the 2 of your WE396a?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received my cryoed we 396a which I bought off ebay. Waiting to burn it in a bit before forming an impression. Towert7, what are the differenced between the 2 of your WE396a?_

 

I never really did a real comparison. Going between one and the other is very similar, so I just left it at that. Much more similar than between the we396a and the ge 5670.
 the Jan glows much brighter though............ so probably a different filament


----------



## donunus

My god! my 396a must not have been burned in enough yet before because now even with my hd600s these are addictive F'N TOOBS! I'm keeping these on!


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My god! my 396a must not have been burned in enough yet before because now even with my hd600s these are addictive F'N TOOBS! I'm keeping these on!_

 

So what's the final word? Bendix 2c51 or WE 396a ?


----------



## donunus

Its we396a for me right now. Bendix is almost there. But you have to think of the synergy with the rest of your system also I guess


----------



## XXII

I agree. The we396a sounds spectacular. I should have tried it earlier. So far, in order of preference, I've tried:

 1)Cryo we396a
 2) Tesla 6cc42
 3) Bendix 6385 (11/64)
 4) Cryo 6N3P
 5) RCA 5670
 6) Stock 5670


----------



## donunus

At first listen... maybe before the 396a and the dac burned in completely, the bendix gave back a shimmer that the 396 lacked but now, there is an interplay of instruments that feel like their are speaking to you in a spooky manner with the 396 that the bendix just doesn't do. Its as if the 396 adds soul to the music


----------



## donunus

The bendix tube sounds thin and lacks meat in the mids compared to the we396a


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bendix tube sounds thin and lacks meat in the mids compared to the we396a_

 

I concur 100%.

 However, my Bendix (6385) is still better for my ear as I like it's detail and sound stage over the we396a. 

 But it's true, my 396A tube is a later model one ... late 60's? I've heard the earlier ones are much better.

 So I'm currently eyeing a NOS 1953 WE396A but haven't gotten over the 80 dollar price tag.


----------



## donunus

i think mine is a basic newer model o getter. i still like them a lot. i might try the d getter ones one of these days.


----------



## Riffle

I ended up upgrading the output caps to 3.9 uf Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Caps. As you can see from the photo they barely fit. I had to stack them somewhat offset and file down the leads to get them to fit in the holes for soldering.

 The caps add a little detail and clarity. I've also noticed a slighty wider and deeper soundstage. My tube impressions are the same, but the detail I liked with the GE 5670WA is now apparent on my two favorites, the LM Ericsson Gold Pins and the Raytheon CK5670 Black Plates w/ Square Getters. I highly recommend the Jantzen Superior Z-Caps, although you might want to get the 2.2 uf's for a better fit. You really can't go wrong with these at about $20 each. Check out the following link for cap reviews:
Humble Homemade Hifi


----------



## Visto

Dear All,

 one comment regarding Havana "1'st class tubes".

 Tesla 6CC42 has at least 3 versions (getters too).
 I have 1 Tesla 6CC42 EX - different glass shape and rectangle getter - sounds BEST - and 2 EY versions - one has square getter another has "plate or UFO" getter - don't know english word for this shape.
 All of them are NOS and sounds different,as already posted, no 1 is EX than EY with "plate getter", last but not least EY with square one.
 See pictures to recognize diffrences.


----------



## Visto




----------



## Visto




----------



## Visto




----------



## hew

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ended up upgrading the output caps to 3.9 uf Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Caps. As you can see from the photo they barely fit. I had to stack them somewhat offset and file down the leads to get them to fit in the holes for soldering.

 The caps add a little detail and clarity. I've also noticed a slighty wider and deeper soundstage. My tube impressions are the same, but the detail I liked with the GE 5670WA is now apparent on my two favorites, the LM Ericsson Gold Pins and the Raytheon CK5670 Black Plates w/ Square Getters. I highly recommend the Jantzen Superior Z-Caps, although you might want to get the 2.2 uf's for a better fit. You really can't go wrong with these at about $20 each. Check out the following link for cap reviews:
Humble Homemade Hifi_

 

I went crazy and tried a couple of Mundorf SGOs in my Paradisea+. Total overkill at over $200, but I was encouraged by a member who had tried them in his Paradisea+. They require some modding skills and require a lenghty burn-in but significantly surpass the changes wrought by my 396a or Bendix tube, imo. At ten times less the Z-Caps may be a more sensible alternative for those who may want to try this.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ended up upgrading the output caps to 3.9 uf Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Caps. As you can see from the photo they barely fit. I had to stack them somewhat offset and file down the leads to get them to fit in the holes for soldering.

 The caps add a little detail and clarity. I've also noticed a slighty wider and deeper soundstage. My tube impressions are the same, but the detail I liked with the GE 5670WA is now apparent on my two favorites, the LM Ericsson Gold Pins and the Raytheon CK5670 Black Plates w/ Square Getters. I highly recommend the Jantzen Superior Z-Caps, although you might want to get the 2.2 uf's for a better fit. You really can't go wrong with these at about $20 each. Check out the following link for cap reviews:
Humble Homemade Hifi_

 

Have you thought about changing out *all* the MHDT caps? Bit of work but could be interesting. Imagine the break in time, though ... ugh.


----------



## Riffle

Jantzen Audio actually claims their caps don't need break in because of their construction, I guess I'll see. I'd sooner buy another DAC than switch everything out. I switched the output caps to a higher value because of my integrated amps input impedance and I figured I'd upgrade to a higher quality cap in the process. Maybe it's the caps, maybe it's the better system synergy, but I like the difference!


----------



## s1rrah

I just put some super duper Havana tubes up for sale:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...1/#post5425704

 FYI.


----------



## s1rrah

Can someone identify the details of the fuse that's in the Havana?

 I'm ordering some IsoClean fuses, one for my amp and one for the Havana and although I'm pretty sure the Havana fuse is of the 5 X 20mm variety ... I'm still not sure if I should get "1A, 2A, 2.5A, 3A" or what?

 Any assist?

 Thanks.
 .joel


----------



## btbluesky

I would like to know too! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can someone identify the details of the fuse that's in the Havana?

 I'm ordering some IsoClean fuses, one for my amp and one for the Havana and although I'm pretty sure the Havana fuse is of the 5 X 20mm variety ... I'm still not sure if I should get "1A, 2A, 2.5A, 3A" or what?

 Any assist?

 Thanks.
 .joel_


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would like to know too!_

 

On the Havana PCB it says: 

 "Fuse AGC2 400mA SLOW"

 That fits one of the descriptions for the HiFi Tuning ceramic fuses ...

 But all the IsoCleans say "1A, 2A, 3A, etc." I'm looking at the drop down menus at this site:

HiFi Tuning and IsoClean Fuses

 I'll most likely just go with the HiFi Tuning fuse unless I hear back from IsoClean in a bit ...


----------



## Orcin

Have you thought about sending an email to Mouse?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you thought about sending an email to Mouse?_

 

Haven't heard back yet ...

 I went ahead and ordered the HiFi Tuning ceramic fuse that's described as 400mA ... which is what the Havana's board says it is ... should be fine.

 Also got one for my Stello ...






 70 dollars altogether but there's a gazillion testimonials out there to their value (and I don't think I saw a single complaint) ... so since I'm going to sit on this rig for another year or more, figure I'll max it out any way I can.

 Also ordering a NOS JW branded WE396a in a few minutes ... it will either be a 1954 or 1955 tube depending on what the guy at tubeworld suggests ...

 .joel


----------



## pzm9pzm9

To owners of Havana, 

 When it arrived from Taiwan,

 did it come with an extra tube in the package?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To owners of Havana, 

 When it arrived from Taiwan,

 did it come with an extra tube in the package?_

 

No.


----------



## Orcin

Oh my, so this is what we have come down to, brother? Fuse-rolling??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 I have to try this.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh my, so this is what we have come down to, brother? Fuse-rolling??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 I have to try this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

HEEElarious!

 Yes ... I'm committed to Tweak City now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Think about it though ... it's a direct choke point in the electrical path ... all power goes through that little baby ... and if I spent hundreds on all my other power related components with some crappy little glass fuse thrown right in to the middle of the chain ...

 Well ... makes sense to my mind anyhow ...

 I'll be sure and post some before/after thoughts ... search around the Audiogon forums ... there's lots of static around the HiFi Tunings and the IsoCleans ... 

 LMAO.

 Fuse rolling.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No._

 

Wow! thats bit strange. cause i just received one extra!


----------



## Zorlac

ooooh! I need to look at my gear now...new fuses!!! hehehe

 You might check these out too...never knew they existed until someone mentioned them on here recently:

Herbie's Audio Lab: Tube Dampers


----------



## Ricey20

When I received my havana I also got a spare GE tube.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ooooh! I need to look at my gear now...new fuses!!! hehehe

 You might check these out too...never knew they existed until someone mentioned them on here recently:

Herbie's Audio Lab: Tube Dampers






_

 

@Zorlac 

 Thanks for the tip on the Herbie's dampeners but I've already got one ...

 BTW: I rode Zorlac skateboards all through high school ... pools and ramps mostly ... is that what your alias is referring too?

 ...


----------



## Zorlac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Zorlac 

 Thanks for the tip on the Herbie's dampeners but I've already got one ...

 BTW: I rode Zorlac skateboards all through high school ... pools and ramps mostly ... is that what your alias is referring too?

 ..._

 

In the 80s, Zorlac made some "Metallica" boards with the infamous Pushead drawn artwork. I was a wannabe skatedork and a huge Metallica fan and had dreams of getting one (kinda like Ralphie wanting the BB gun)...unfortunately I didnt have that kind of money back then and Mom wouldnt buy it LOL! ...but yeah, the name stuck with me because of those childhood dreams. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So anyways, you think MHDT will ever build a NOS DAC that supports sources up to 24/96? I would buy the Havana now, but really would like to find a NOS that supports the higher res files (because I have several high res wavs ripped from DVDA, HDCD, downloaded, etc.)


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the 80s, Zorlac made some "Metallica" boards with the infamous Pushead drawn artwork. I was a wannabe skatedork and a huge Metallica fan and had dreams of getting one (kinda like Ralphie wanting the BB gun)...unfortunately I didnt have that kind of money back then and Mom wouldnt buy it LOL! ...but yeah, the name stuck with me because of those childhood dreams. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So anyways, you think MHDT will ever build a NOS DAC that supports sources up to 24/96? I would buy the Havana now, but really would like to find a NOS that supports the higher res files (because I have several high res wavs ripped from DVDA, HDCD, downloaded, etc.)_

 

LOL.

 I skated with John Gibson (zorlac owner and bad ass skater in his day) on several occasions in empty pools around my neighborhood (Houston/Clear Lake City/Galveston) ...

 Also saw his band on several different occasions, ... they were called "barkhard" if memory serves ... but that's going pretty far back (I'm 41) ...

 BTW: I play 96/24 flacs all the time and they sound great on the Havana ... I'm sure it's not rendering them at that khz and bitrate, however but it certainly accepts the stream and plays it fine ... I'm not sure how it accomplishes this though ... 

 I download 96/24 files often via HDtracks high resolution audiophile music downloads ...

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I received my havana I also got a spare GE tube._

 

haha i thought i was the lucky one


----------



## s1rrah

So I got the HI-FI Tuning fuses in today ...

 ...






 ...

 A definite improvement over the stock fuse!

 x2 resolution and especially ... well ... resolution. Yet another bit of veil removed is the best way to put it ... 

 But there's more ...

 What's _really_ mind boggling is how much of a difference changing the polarity/orientation of the fuse makes!

 It's downright maddening to be honest.

 Turn it one way and the bass tightens up dramatically but loses a bit of depth/extension ... the mids become a tad recessed ... the highs become a tad rolled off but very very sweet and forgiving (especially with the GS1000's) and the soundstage becomes crazy huge and almost like you turned on a stereo effect of some kind ...

 Turn it the _opposite way_ and the mids become less recessed and a bit forward, the bass fattens up and gains depth but loses tautness, the highs gain a bit more sizzle and "splash" and the soundstage, while still really nice, becomes a bit more centered and not as wide ...

 Really ... it's freakishly *horrible* to start such comparisons on a Friday evening, a night before work and all.

 I had to settle on a certain setting (mind you for DAC _*and*_ AMP, where the above holds identically true) so as to be able to get some work/listening done and also get to bed at a certain time ...

 Anyway ...

 They are legit and I can't imagine the trauma I'm going to suffer this weekend while trying to figure out which polarity setting I'm going to stick with between the DAC and AMP ... LOL.


----------



## SleepyOne

s1rrah, how do one know which version (fast or slow blown) of the fuse to choose from for ones DAC/amp?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SleepyOne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_s1rrah, how do one know which version (fast or slow blown) of the fuse to choose from for ones DAC/amp?_

 

Well the fuse experts at IsoClean say that SLOW blow fuses are best for audio equipment ... for whatever reason.

 That said ... as you can see on the circuit board in the above shot of my Havana, it ships with a SLOW blow fuse stock.

 My Stello HP100 amp, however, shipped with a FAST blow fuse stock. I changed that to SLOW blow, however when I upgraded to the HiFi Tuning fuses.

 BTW: SLOW blow and FAST blow simply mean how fast the fuse will respond to surges or spikes in the power flow that could possibly damage your equipment ... that's all a fuse does, really is protect vital components from power damage ... I'm pretty sure, anyway.

 I consulted April Music to be sure of exactly what type of fuse my Stello had and the Havana was fairly easy to determine once I opened the case and looked around a bit.

 Be sure you match fuses exactly ... 

 Hope that helps.


----------



## SleepyOne

Thank you, that really helps! I am guessing the reason they recommend slow blow is that the wire in the slow blow fuse is thicker so more conductivity. Only catch is of course the risk of damage to ones gear.


----------



## Zorlac

I opened the top cover of my new Audio-gd C-2C amp, and I didnt see a fuse. Dumb question, but shouldnt it have a fuse??? There is another compartment that I could open (probably where the power supply is). I wonder if its in there?

 So do these fuses have a truly correct way to be seated? (kinda like a battery has a positive and negative end)


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 What's really mind boggling is how much of a difference changing the polarity/orientation of the fuse makes!

 It's downright maddening to be honest.

 Turn it one way and the bass tightens up dramatically but loses a bit of depth/extension ... the mids become a tad recessed ... the highs become a tad rolled off but very very sweet and forgiving (especially with the GS1000's) and the soundstage becomes crazy huge and almost like you turned on a stereo effect of some kind ...

 Turn it the opposite way and the mids become less recessed and a bit forward, the bass fattens up and gains depth but loses tautness, the highs gain a bit more sizzle and "splash" and the soundstage, while still really nice, becomes a bit more centered and not as wide ...
_

 

Ok, that's when I call BS.
 Your funny s1rrah.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, that's when I call BS.
 Your funny s1rrah._

 

It's true. 

 Switching the polarity of the fuse (as the company said it would) drastically changes the sound ...

 Not even a chance for placebo on this one ... 

 It's only a measly 30 US ... buy one and try it.


----------



## Towert7

exotic fuses is where I draw the line.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_exotic fuses is where I draw the line._

 

I've heard tale that bypassing the fuse altogether, if you've some DIY skillz, can also be advantageous ... though of course, you run the risk of losing your gear. 

 A good bud of mine has bypassed the fuse in all his gear as he has invested in an in-wall outlet that handles the fusing external of any gear.

 But regarding the possibility of a fuse impacting sound ... 

 It's really the same principle that dictates a change in sonics when using different IC's and cables/cords in general: the fuse is a critical and independant stage in the power line/travel circuit ... all juice that hits the rest of the circuit path must pass through it as it's job is to protect the rest of the circuit path ... 

 So to me, anyway ... it really doesn't make any sense to have thousands of dollars worth of outlets, cables and what not if your dropping a cheaply made (materials) fuse to interrupt the flow ...

 But of course it's highly subjective, as all things audio ...

 Good cheap tweak IMO ... but the drawing of lines is also a very respectable and (to me anyway) an envied personal trait so, Namaste, friend.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_exotic fuses is where I draw the line._

 

Can't call it bullsh!t until you stick your nose in it... that's what we say down here in Texas y'all.


----------



## s1rrah

Well I have to concur with those who have praised the joys of early 50's JW-2C51 (WE396A) tubes ...

 Mine arrived a couple days ago (paid 65 dollars at TubeWorld.com) and I have to admit ... I'm enjoying it just slightly more than my much loved Bendix 6385.

 The two tubes (JW/6385) sound very similar in regards to detail and bass ... but the WE396A claims the win in regards to high frequencies ... so sweet and easy ... where the Bendix 6385 is just a bit "splashy" in comparison ...

 And having had a much later year (1964) WE396A ... I can quite easily say there is no comparison with the later versions and the earlier, 1950's, "JW" branded versions of the same Western Electric tube ...

 I feel complete now.






 I've got the Bendix 6385 for those certain moods and music and the "JW" WE396A for those other moods and music ... 

 Def the best two tubes I've heard with the Havana ...

 Rock on, yo.


----------



## vic1890

I was wonder Sirrah, how does JW compare in terms of soundstage and airy-ness to the bendix? (will be using it on the original Paradisea)


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vic1890* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wonder Sirrah, how does JW compare in terms of soundstage and airy-ness to the bendix? (will be using it on the original Paradisea)_

 

I think the soundstage on the Bendix and JW branded WE396A are about the same ... 

 But the Bendix is just a tad more "airy" ... if I understand what that term means, that is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ... and, as I've heard mentioned before ... this might equate to "thinner" sounding to some listeners ...

 The Bendix 6385 and the JW branded WE396A are remarkably similar: low noise, great soundstage, insanely good detail and instrument seperation ...

 But where the main difference comes up (at least to me, mind you) is in how the JW branded WE396a renders high's versus how the 6385 renders highs ...

 To my ear ... the JW branded WE396a is just as detailed in the high frequency range but lacks just the slightest bit of "splashiness/sizzle" that the 6385 provides ...

 And since I'm a full time Grado listener ... I prefer the slightly sweeter JW branded WE396a to the 6385, though no way am I going to get rid of the Bendix ... just going to reserve it for future listening as I'm 90% in favor of it as I am with this new JW tube ...

 As I told another head-fi friend o' mine ... get a early 50's JW branded WE396a and a Bendix 6385 and then stop looking for tubes and start listening.






 Have fun.

 .joel


----------



## vic1890

Hmmm, so, is there a time limit on 'early' bit of the 50s? - would a 1954 version be the same? (what year is yours, btw? - just to double check)

 I swear, you're like an encyclopedia when its comes to the MHDT dacs for me. I might actually consider getting the HI-Fi fuse as well, since I blew mine off today, forgetting to change it from 110v to 220v (thank goodness just that blew)

 But being in the UK its hard to get these things..


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vic1890* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, so, is there a time limit on 'early' bit of the 50s? - would a 1954 version be the same? (what year is yours, btw? - just to double check)

 I swear, you're like an encyclopedia when its comes to the MHDT dacs for me. I might actually consider getting the HI-Fi fuse as well, since I blew mine off today, forgetting to change it from 110v to 220v (thank goodness just that blew)

 But being in the UK its hard to get these things.._

 

54 should be fine as long as your buying from a reputable dealer (tubeworld, etc.) ...

 I think (according to the tubeworld guy, anyway) that 53 thru 56 or so are going to test/sound the same ...

 And yes ... they are WAY better than the 60's variants of the same (non JW branded) WE396A tube ...

 The fuse is for each person to figure out ...

 But believing in cables ... believing in tubes ... I can only admit that it seems to me that a fuse (being a direct choke point of the power line) ... is just as important ... I found it worthwhile ... but as with most stuff ... Your mileage may vary ...






 Best.
 .joel


----------



## s1rrah

So I put my Bendix 6385 back in the Havana last night and I gotta say ... I'm absolutely on the fence between it and the 50's JW WE396A ... they are both so so great!

 Does anyone have one of those extra tall Tesla tubes that work with the Havana DACs?

 Wanna send it to me for a week demo/review?


----------



## donunus

just put in the stock ge tube just now because the 396a doesn't have the right synergy with the audio technica ad900s... i like the overall balance better now but it sounds dry in comparison to the 396.... hmm what tube is as bright as the stock ge but maybe a little sweeter? The bendix is a little sterile to me. I have to try it again with the new cans but I dont have them at the moment.


----------



## Veefy

Anyone using the Havana with horn or high efficiency speakers?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Veefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone using the Havana with horn or high efficiency speakers?_

 

I'm headphone only ... 

 But as I recall ... a couple of the more accessible online Havana reviews were done by guys using a speaker setup ...

 And they were pretty much fawning and fainting all over the place in praise of it.

 If I get some time I'll hunt the reviews down ... but in the meantime ... google around.


----------



## Veefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm headphone only ... 

 But as I recall ... a couple of the more accessible online Havana reviews were done by guys using a speaker setup ...

 And they were pretty much fawning and fainting all over the place in praise of it.

 If I get some time I'll hunt the reviews down ... but in the meantime ... google around._

 

Yeah, I'm aware of that review where the guy seems to comment about non oversampling DAC's being good match for horns.

MHDT Labs Havana Non-Oversampling Tubed DAC With USB Input CD players are absolutely dead! Review By Scott Faller

 I would be interested to hear if anyone has used a Cambridge CD player as a transport to the Havana.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Veefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone using the Havana with horn or high efficiency speakers?_

 

I'm not using the havana with my horns but a cousin of mine really loves the havana with his horn system


----------



## Veefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not using the havana with my horns but a cousin of mine really loves the havana with his horn system_

 

Which hornspeakers does your cousin have? I just *very* recently acquired 2nd hand Avantgarde Unos.


----------



## donunus

he has custom horns with ale drivers. heres some pics










 And this is the one hes using the havana with these days


----------



## Veefy

WOW! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That must sound fairly epic..


----------



## Ricey20

holy horns batman, never seen ones like those before. Nice!


----------



## donunus

Any more people here with havanas and tube rolling experience with more rare tubes? I'm trying to find a tube with great synergy for my audio technica ad900s


----------



## shellylh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_he has custom horns with ale drivers. heres some pics




_

 

Wow, I am not even sure how to respond to this!


----------



## shellylh

oops, double post.


----------



## s1rrah

Sweet Baby Vishnu!

 ...






 ...

 It's the Incredible Hulk Horn!

 LOL.

 Those things look crazy.

 Poor Havana's probably cowering in abject fear on the rack.


----------



## donunus

Hes the guy that borrowed my bendix tube that i got from you


----------



## donunus

So anyone here listen to a ge 5 star 5670 or a raytheon windmill getter on the havanas?


----------



## Veefy

Not sure if somehow had posted this before.

mhdt


 Anyone using the Bel Canto USB Link 24/96 or similar device with Havana?

 I've done some more digging and that USB link seems to have quite a bit of good press/user comments although it's very recently been released.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Veefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone using the Bel Canto USB Link 24/96 or similar device with Havana?

 I've done some more digging and that USB link seems to have quite a bit of good press/user comments although it's very recently been released._

 

It would have to be VERY good to justify it's price IMO. Besides, the Havana doesn't support 24/96. You are probably better off getting a cheaper USB -> coaxial converter.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would have to be VERY good to justify it's price IMO. Besides, the Havana doesn't support 24/96. You are probably better off getting a cheaper USB -> coaxial converter._

 

There's a new Havana review at Positive Feedback where the reviewer spends quite a bit of time discussing the Bel Canto 24/96 thingy ...

 Some very insightful comments.

 Also, he spends quite a bit of time comparing the humble Havana to a $9000 dollar Cary DAC and the Havana comes out looking pretty dang decent ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mostly, his comments echo my own appreciation of the Havana: Musicality, pace, ease and natural tone ... especially when paired with Grado headphones!

 Here's the review/comparison:
*
Audio Ramblings - the mhdt Havana DAC and the Bel Canto USB Link 24/96... with a few words on the Xavian Mediterranea loudspeakers*

 ...


----------



## ttnl

Hi S1rrah, if I use this DAC with a tube amp and Senn Hd600, is the sound too warm and dark? How does this DAC compare to the Paradisea DAC? Thanks.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi S1rrah, if I use this DAC with a tube amp and Senn Hd600, is the sound too warm and dark? How does this DAC compare to the Paradisea DAC? Thanks._

 

Regarding the Havana?

 I would say, no. Definitely not too warm or "dark" ... especially if you went with a Bendix 6385 or an early 50's WE396A tube. Both of which are very resolving and detailed with the 6385 Bendix tube being just a bit more "tinny" and "airy" sounding.

 You've also got a huge amount of flexibility in your choice of tubes with your amp.

 Same comment holds for the Paradisea, BTW.

 Technically speaking and having spent far too many hours A/B testing between the Havana and Paradisea ... I have to say that the Havana, and considering your above configuration, would get the vote in my opinion if only because of it's significant advantage in regards to detail and low level sonics reproduction over the Paradisea. There is a quite noticeble veil removed once moving from the Paradisea to the Havana and this is most certainly due to the lack of an OPAMP and it's associated circuitry in the Havana.

 Both are kick ass DACS though ... and both will work great with a tube amp and the Senns ...

 But if you can afford it ... I think the Havana would be the most refined and rewarding listen between the two ...

 Hope that helps.


----------



## ttnl

yes, it definitely helps. Thanks for your opinion. I have never owned a DAC before, so I am torn between a SS DAC and this Paradisea tube DAC. If you have experience with both of them, can you share your opinion? Thanks.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, it definitely helps. Thanks for your opinion. I have never owned a DAC before, so I am torn between a SS DAC and this Paradisea tube DAC. If you have experience with both of them, can you share your opinion? Thanks._

 

The only SS experience I've had with DACs was a Musiland MD10 DAC ... which I just could not stand with my Grados ... way to "brittle" and sharp sounding ... was annoying ... 

 Once I switched to the Paradisea DAC, it was like I had finally rediscovered the Music again and was not being wow'd by sound effects anymore.

 The Paradisea and Havana DACS made me forget all about equipment and (really, sounds gay but it's true) all I could think about was the band, artist, song I was listening too. I think that's the basis for the term, "musical" when describing audio listening gear.

 And in the end, this is my goal ... 

 A headphone rig that lends itself towards sheer musicality and appreciation of the music ... and *not* one that generates "neat sound" sonic affects or illusions.

 Again ... both MHDT Labs DAC do this for me and I quite confidently recommend them both (as though the other online reviews weren't enough).

 Really ... I've never seen a negative review of the MHDT products ... and that's pretty exceptional in our lofty circles, no?

 Best.

 And have fun on your journey.

 .joel


----------



## PascalT

Thanks s1rrah for the comparison.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like I'll be joining the club!

 Three questions 

 1- Will any generic power cable work for the Havana? I read it doesn't come with one but I do not have any extras around.

 2- Should I use USB or use toslink from my Chaintech Av-710 (bitperfect) ? Will any USB cable work?

 3- Finally, do ICs really make a big difference? I'm using some really generic RCA cables right now but I could see myself spending a few bucks on something better if it does improve the sound. My setup is lying right on top of my computer and surrounded by 2 big LCD screens, a phone, printer, etc...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks s1rrah for the comparison.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like I'll be joining the club!

 Three questions 

 1- Will any generic power cable work for the Havana? I read it doesn't come with one but I do not have any extras around.

 2- Should I use USB or use toslink from my Chaintech Av-710 (bitperfect) ? Will any USB cable work?

 3- Finally, do ICs really make a big difference? I'm using some really generic RCA cables right now but I could see myself spending a few bucks on something better if it does improve the sound. My setup is lying right on top of my computer and surrounded by 2 big LCD screens, a phone, printer, etc..._

 

I got your questions via PM ...

 But otherwise?

 Ahhh yes. Another falls to the MHDT Labs World Domination Team(tm).

 You will be pleased.


----------



## PascalT

you forgot the evil laugh... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I told my wife how much the DAC was and I got the "what??" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But it wasn't in a bad way, just in the "wow that's expensive" kind of way. She said we need to buy a new bedroom set.. and I told her that that would be boring.

 So is USB better than toslink?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you forgot the evil laugh... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I told my wife how much the DAC was and I got the "what??" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But it wasn't in a bad way, just in the "wow that's expensive" kind of way. She said we need to buy a new bedroom set.. and I told her that that would be boring.

 So is USB better than toslink? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've found dig coaxial to be better than USB or Optical.

 To my ear, USB is the worst of the three. Not as dynamic, soundstage is a bit constrained and things just sound lifeless compared to dig coaxial. Toslink (optical) sounds good too but a little thin compared to the coaxial.

 Dig coaxial is also fun cause there's a wide variety of 75ohm cables that you can try.


----------



## PascalT

Hmm my chaintech only has Toslink. Do you think it's worth getting a different card just for coax? if so do you know of good cheap alternatives? I could get a spdif converter but I doubt it's an optimal solution.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've found dig coaxial to be better than USB or Optical.

 To my ear, USB is the worst of the three. Not as dynamic, soundstage is a bit constrained and things just sound lifeless compared to dig coaxial. Toslink (optical) sounds good too but a little thin compared to the coaxial.

 Dig coaxial is also fun cause there's a wide variety of 75ohm cables that you can try._

 

^^^ I have also found that the coaxial input on my Havana sounds better then the Toslink or the USB. I use Canare cable with Canare's true 75 Ohm RCA plug.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm my chaintech only has Toslink. Do you think it's worth getting a different card just for coax? if so do you know of good cheap alternatives? I could get a spdif converter but I doubt it's an optimal solution._

 

If you have a spare PCI-Express slot (the little white one that nothings ever been in) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... then the new Auzentech X-fi Forte is very decent at about 150 bucks: Auzentech, Inc. X-Fi Forte PCI-Express Soundcard : World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

 It also has a *supposedly* pretty decent headamp built in if your ever stuck having to use it as your DAC/amp.

 ...

 I use an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 : Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

 It's a bit pricier ... maybe 175 to 200 bucks. Main difference being a few more input/output options.

 ...

 Otherwise ... the optical on your chaintech should be fine. If you feel gratuitous and have some spare coin laying around you could investigate the coax later. Optical sounds very very good and other folks might like it better than coaxial in so far as digital signals go ... but I like having the different cables to chose from. Somehow, to my "third ear" anyway ... it sounds more organic and natural ...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Stevesebastianb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^^ I have also found that the coaxial input on my Havana sounds better then the Toslink or the USB. I use Canare cable with Canare's true 75 Ohm RCA plug.



_

 

@Stevesebastianb:

 You might go to the For Sale section, cables department and send me an email to get signed up for a free Zu Firemine 75 ohm cable.

 I'll be drawing a winner this monday.

 Here's a link: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fr...1/#post5589262

 Really great cable. In fact, if I don't like the new Zu Ash that Zu Audio is sending me more than the Zu Firemine ... then I'll be giving away the Ash (200+ dollar bit of wire) ...

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## PascalT

thanks for the info once again. you guys are great.

 I guess i'll wait before I put more money into my setup. In between buying the DAC, some tubes for my amp and DAC and a new cable for my 650s... it's becoming expensive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try optical and USB and compare those first.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Stevesebastianb:

 You might go to the For Sale section, cables department and send me an email to get signed up for a free Zu Firemine 75 ohm cable.

 I'll be drawing a winner this monday.

 Here's a link: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fr...1/#post5589262

 Really great cable. In fact, if I don't like the new Zu Ash that Zu Audio is sending me more than the Zu Firemine ... then I'll be giving away the Ash (200+ dollar bit of wire) ...

 Best.
 .joel_

 

^^^ Joel, Thanks for the heads up!

 Steve


----------



## Fing

Tried coax just using a bluejeans coax cable out of a EMU 1212m soundcard, which sounds pretty good.

 On a whim, I switched to USB and found there was a lot more detail coming through, which I preferred.

 Just a preference thing I guess.


----------



## zaccio

I also find that there is much more detail with USB compare to coax cable with my Squeezebox 3 so I've sold my Squeezebox


----------



## PascalT

Here's what Lin-Li had to say about it:

 Coaxial is better in my experience.
 Good toslink cable is very expensive, so usually we can't judge the sound quality by poor toslink cable, it is probably not fair in this condition.


----------



## scootermafia

Hmm, this thing is so sexy that I can barely restrain myself even though I totally can't afford one right now. However, I am very much put off by the fact that it can't handle 24-bit audio, I use my Moodlab DAC to decode dvd-audio and 24-bit 96khz flac. I'd have to give up all that.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, this thing is so sexy that I can barely restrain myself even though I totally can't afford one right now. However, I am very much put off by the fact that it can't handle 24-bit audio, I use my Moodlab DAC to decode dvd-audio and 24-bit 96khz flac. I'd have to give up all that._

 

^^^ The Havana NOS DAC is a complete different kettle of fish! I also thought along the same lines as you did since I already have a tube output 24-bit, 96Kz DAC - LITE-60, but that was until I heard the Havana! I simply could not resist and Lucifer got the better of me.

 I still like the Lite60 but in a different way, the music reproduced from the Havana is much more engaging.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

I have been listening Havana with wa2 (all stock) over the weekend & I just cannot stop listening!!

 The first word I want to describe Havana is a "refinement" of the sound. That thin sound of instruments from my sound card is gone. I really enjoy the sound of every instruments it presents. 
 While listening, I thought it has the ability to seperate the instruments so well that it adds the depth to the music. To me, Havana sounds very neutral , meaning no eq like effect from top to bottom frequency. (not sure this is what we call neutral ....) I think this is the reason that we find Havana so musical. I get the larger picture of music while having every instruments sounds detailed & controlled. This also could be a problem for those who prefer the instruments playing right in the head, because to me, it is like sitting in the 10th row or even back depends on the recordings. I wonder if the sounds (especially mid) can be brought up closer by rolling tubes or changing headphone. Anyone? ( I ask this because I would like to have two opposite charicteristics of soundings like upfront and laidback. Will I need another Dac to achive the upfront sound?)

 My opinion is very subjective!


----------



## PascalT

I just keep refreshing the EMS page to see where the DAC is. I'm such a geek. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ^^ these reviews do NOT help


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, this thing is so sexy that I can barely restrain myself even though I totally can't afford one right now. However, I am very much put off by the fact that it can't handle 24-bit audio, I use my Moodlab DAC to decode dvd-audio and 24-bit 96khz flac. I'd have to give up all that._

 

It plays 24/96 files just fine.

 I buy such .FLACs from HDTracks.com frequently.

 I'm sure the Havana renders them _at it's limited capacity_, however ... but they still sound better to my ear than a standard 16/44 files.

 FYI.


----------



## PascalT

Is 24/96 even perceivable to our ears? I read in a thread here on Head-fi that it's basically impossible. But I could be wrong.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Stevesebastianb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^^ The Havana NOS DAC is a complete different kettle of fish! I also thought along the same lines as you did since I already have a tube output 24-bit, 96Kz DAC - LITE-60, but that was until I heard the Havana! I simply could not resist and Lucifer got the better of me.

 I still like the Lite60 but in a different way, the music reproduced from the Havana is much more engaging.





_

 

Interesting your comments on Havana vs. Lite-60. 

 I've seen the Lite 60 at Pacific Valve a couple times and always wondered how it would compare to the Havana DAC.

 Thanks for the info.


----------



## K3cT

Is the Havana worth the 40% premium over the Paradisea 3?


----------



## donunus

I was already about to sell my bendix 2c51s because the I thought the stock tube was best for most my pcs rock mp3s. I just tried listening to some jazz cds and wow the bendix 2c51 does have a much better soundstage than the stock tube. You were right all along Joel. It was unnoticeable in the songs I was testing it with before. I'm keeping the tubes now. I dont understand why some rock benefits from the stock tube though. Maybe the grainier more forward mids suits rock better hmmm


----------



## Koolpsych

Has anyone paired the Havana with a Darkvoice 332/3322? I'm interested in how a tube dac sounds with a tube amp, if this is audio bliss or a tube overload


----------



## paara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koolpsych* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone paired the Havana with a Darkvoice 332/3322? I'm interested in how a tube dac sounds with a tube amp, if this is audio bliss or a tube overload 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

x2 (DV 336)


----------



## scootermafia

I do hear a difference in sound quality with my high resolution recordings. It could just be mostly that they are in a class of better mastered records. I do know their primary benefit is 6 channel listening which is of course useless to us. But I'd be sad if I had to decode them on my player.

 I'll still buy a Havana, eventually.

 I appreciate the advice that the Havana will crush my Moodlab, it's about as I expected...and it's pleasing that it can at least do something with that high res audio even if it's not rendering it at full 24-bit, as long as it doesn't reject it outright.

 I probably wouldn't buy the Paradisea just because I want that metal top, I think it's cool looking, and I'd just get upgradeitis or wonder what the Havana would be like.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koolpsych* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone paired the Havana with a Darkvoice 332/3322? I'm interested in how a tube dac sounds with a tube amp, if this is audio bliss or a tube overload 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

^^^ I have used the Havana with the 336SE and all I can say is
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Audio Heaven.

 I have also paired it up using RCA to balanced cable for the Little Dot MK VI and


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the Havana worth the 40% premium over the Paradisea 3?_

 

For myself and as a former Paradisea owner, definitely.

 They are definite sonic relatives ... but the Havana removes just a bit of grain from the signal that's quite apparent when A/B listening to both the Paradisea and the Havana.

 Havana's low level resolution is much better than Paradisea's.

 Overall, Havana is more detailed, more refined of a delivery.

 So if small but important and quite noticeable gains like that happen to be things you appreciate, then get a Havana.

 You'd be happy with either one, though ...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I appreciate the advice that the Havana will crush my Moodlab, it's about as I expected...and it's pleasing that it can at least do something with that high res audio even if it's not rendering it at full 24-bit, as long as it doesn't reject it outright._

 

I don't know if the Havana would crush the Moodlab or not ... 

 As I understand it, the Moodlab is also a NOS design, yes? Otherwise, it would depend on how much junk is in the Moodlab's signal path ... does it utilize an OPAMP? 

 I wouldn't be surprised if they sounded fairly similar as NOS DACs go ... the big advantage that the Havana has is it's true R2R design featuring no OPAMPS in the signal path which is what so dramatically improves it's performance over the Paradisea I think.


----------



## PascalT

Agh hurry up EMS. My package has been at "Left Taiwan" for 2-3 days.


----------



## Koolpsych

I would love to get my hands on a Havana but I'm not quite sure the 900 USD price tag quite justifies the purchase quite yet over my upgraded zero. Hoping to see one pop up in the for sale thread of possibly considering the Constantine with my tube amp.


----------



## scootermafia

I'm about to pull the trigger on the Havana, I emailed the MHDT people for where to send payment. 

 The Moodlab's up for sale in the classifieds forum. Looks like both of them have no op amps but the Moodlab is fully passive, sound is IV'd with resistors. The Havana has a tubed output stage. Its power supply is vastly superior and I think the chips are better than the TDA1541 in the Moodlab.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm about to pull the trigger on the Havana, I emailed the MHDT people for where to send payment. 

 The Moodlab's up for sale in the classifieds forum. Looks like both of them have no op amps but the Moodlab is fully passive, sound is IV'd with resistors. The Havana has a tubed output stage. Its power supply is vastly superior and I think the chips are better than the TDA1541 in the Moodlab._

 

^^^ I am sure you will be pleased with the purchase.


----------



## PascalT

Well I just got the DAC. I'll write a brief review later when everything is burned in. My initial impression: Wow, I'm never ever leaving this chair again.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For myself and as a former Paradisea owner, definitely.

 They are definite sonic relatives ... but the Havana removes just a bit of grain from the signal that's quite apparent when A/B listening to both the Paradisea and the Havana.

 Havana's low level resolution is much better than Paradisea's.

 Overall, Havana is more detailed, more refined of a delivery.

 So if small but important and quite noticeable gains like that happen to be things you appreciate, then get a Havana.

 You'd be happy with either one, though ..._

 

Thanks. I guess if I were to end up with the Paradisea, I will end up wondering how much better the Havana is going to be. Oh well, plenty of time to mule over the issue.


----------



## PascalT

Any recommendations for the DAC for someone who has 2 cats? I'm scared a lot of cat hair will get in through the top holes. should I just open it up and clean it often? would covering the holes with a book or something be bad? (something softer for the tube hole)


----------



## scootermafia

Just put it up in a high place to where cats can't get at it. The holes are for ventilation, I probably wouldn't cover them.

 This reminds me of when I did a carbon fiber clad cable for someone and they said as we were working out the details "One last question - what if my cat chews on it?". I said that cat's not going to like the taste.


----------



## Riffle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. I guess if I were to end up with the Paradisea, I will end up wondering how much better the Havana is going to be. Oh well, plenty of time to mule over the issue._

 

The Paradisea also has a a slightly exaggerated mid-bass, 80hz-120hz. I liked it, but I definitely enjoy the extra detail and flatter response of the Havana.


----------



## scootermafia

It's been more than 24 hours and no response from MHDT...I'm freakin out maaaaaan. They sure aren't eager to take my hard earned $$. At least Kingwa creepily emails me back 5 minutes after I write, even at like 3am...


----------



## Stevesebastianb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's been more than 24 hours and no response from MHDT...I'm freakin out maaaaaan. They sure aren't eager to take my hard earned $$. At least Kingwa creepily emails me back 5 minutes after I write, even at like 3am..._

 

^^^ Don't freak out as it happened to me the first time as my email ended up in their spam folder and they didn't see it. I sent them a second email and Lin-Li responded immediately and apoligized, two more emails and he sent me a PayPal invoice and it was paid for and my Havana arrived with that same week!


----------



## scootermafia

Woohoo my Havana shipped, Lin-Li must've just taken a day off...yayayayay!


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Woohoo my Havana shipped, Lin-Li must've just taken a day off...yayayayay!_

 

Unlike Audio-gd, Mhdt is just a part-time thing for it's 4 founders. So I guess you can't expect the same level of service as with Audio-gd.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unlike Audio-gd, Mhdt is just a part-time thing for it's 4 founders. So I guess you can't expect the same level of service as with Audio-gd. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

But man!

 Have you spent any time checking their feedback on Ebay? 

 They are making some serious coin off the Havana and Paradisea ...

 And I personally think it's well deserved. Good design and attention to detail are worth the money.


----------



## scootermafia

They're a little more specific than audio-GD in what they do. But they seem to churn out plenty of these DACs and lots of people around here seem to have them. And I wouldn't have bought them if they weren't so well received and so damn sexy...Havana being so musical, I think it's a terrific match for my HD650s with Mundorf cable.


----------



## scootermafia

Got a fancy fuse coming. You better be right s1rrah...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got a fancy fuse coming. You better be right s1rrah..._

 

Be sure you test it both polarities.


----------



## emelius

hi-fi tuning fuses?...i might get 4 for my Panache...let us know what ya think...


----------



## s1rrah

Anyone believe much in the idea of Synchronicity?

 Or is it just that MySpace has some really invasive personal information bots?

 This is what was on my MySpace profile edit/home page just now:

 ...






 ...

 Now how the hell did MyGay's marketing bot know that I spend each and every Saturday night listening to my Havana based headphone rig?

_How_, damnit!?

 It's enough to give me goose pimples.


----------



## s1rrah

Here's some random Havana/Stello pr0n! to keep you all enthralled:

 ...






 ...


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## shellylh

Very nice, that Havana sure is a looker! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's some random Havana/Stello pr0n! to keep you all enthralled:

 ...






 ...




_


----------



## Skin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any recommendations for the DAC for someone who has 2 cats? I'm scared a lot of cat hair will get in through the top holes. should I just open it up and clean it often? would covering the holes with a book or something be bad? (something softer for the tube hole)_

 

keep in covered all the time when not in use and clean it every once in awhile and it will be fine.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that Havana sure is a looker!_

 

If I were a machine I would stalk it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Woohoo my Havana shipped, Lin-Li must've just taken a day off...yayayayay!_

 

Hi Scooter

 Now all you need is a GS-1 to go with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## s1rrah

So thanks to our very own Shellylh, I now have the following DAC to review against the Havana:

 ...






 ...

 I've only tentatively listened at this point but the differences are rather striking.

 What I will say and as preface to the eventual review/writeup ... 

 They are both outstanding sounding DACS. Different, both with strong suits ... but both top notch for the price range. 






 More later.


----------



## emelius

think i might wait & see if live cashback goes back up, but things like this sure are tempting...

 gone already
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So thanks to our very own Shellylh, I now have the following DAC to review against the Havana:

 ...

http://resume.jbhfile.com/temp/da100.jpg

 ...

 I've only tentatively listened at this point but the differences are rather striking.

 What I will say and as preface to the eventual review/writeup ... 

 They are both outstanding sounding DACS. Different, both with strong suits ... but both top notch for the price range. 






 More later._

 

How about some preliminary impressions....


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about some preliminary impressions....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'll do a proper write up within the week.

 But after an hours listen? And just off the cuff and all?

*Havana* = seductive, real, engaging, musical, sweet, detailed, more like analogue

*DA100* = extremely detailed, fun, articulate, exact, meticulous, more like digital

 There are quite a few other mentions that I'll explore in the review, regarding bass and high frequency differences, especially ... but I'll save that for later.

 RE: my brief comments above, ... 

 Having a really decent turntable rig in the house, I consider myself a pretty fair judge of what analogue sounds like. So whenever I say analogue ... I really mean vinyl.






 More later ...


----------



## shellylh

Looking good! 

 Your impressions so far are not so surprising. I wonder which you will prefer? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So thanks to our very own Shellylh, I now have the following DAC to review against the Havana:

 ...






 ...

 I've only tentatively listened at this point but the differences are rather striking.

 What I will say and as preface to the eventual review/writeup ... 

 They are both outstanding sounding DACS. Different, both with strong suits ... but both top notch for the price range. 






 More later._


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking good! 

 Your impressions so far are not so surprising. I wonder which you will prefer? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Don't you start trying to sell it to me, damnit.






 I'll remain a Havana guy ... this I know ... my Grados demand it.

 But the Stello DAC is indeed a very intriguing bit of gear. I've only listened via optical at the moment ...

 And BTW ... as much as I would have liked to used that Mapletree switch box, I simply can't as there's no way to run a digital feed from my computer and to both DACs simultaneously.

 DAngo!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you start trying to sell it to me, damnit.






 I'll remain a Havana guy ... this I know ... my Grados demand it.

 But the Stello DAC is indeed a very intriguing bit of gear. I've only listened via optical at the moment ...

 And BTW ... as much as I would have liked to used that Mapletree switch box, I simply can't as there's no way to run a digital feed from my computer and to both DACs simultaneously.

 DAngo!_

 

I notice in the photo that the upsample is engaged. 

*You might want to turn that off.* 

 IMHO the upsample switch, on the DA100, brings the treble and midrange forward, decreasing the depth of the sound stage and decreasing the bass. You may not agree with my assessment, but you will certainly notice the increase in bass with upsampling off.

 USG


----------



## shellylh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you start trying to sell it to me, damnit.






 I'll remain a Havana guy ... this I know ... my Grados demand it.

 But the Stello DAC is indeed a very intriguing bit of gear. I've only listened via optical at the moment ...

 And BTW ... as much as I would have liked to used that Mapletree switch box, I simply can't as there's no way to run a digital feed from my computer and to both DACs simultaneously.

 DAngo!_

 

You could run one via optical and one via USB. Then you would just need switch the digital output on your computer while simultaneously turning the switch on the switchbox. At least, I can do this with my mac. [It is easier than patting your head and rubbing your tummy]. Even better, you could run them both via USB (assuming your super computer has two usb ports free).


----------



## XXII

I look forward to reading your review S1rrah. I had the chance to compare the DA100 and the Havana a while ago and my conclusion was that the Havana was far superior to my tastes. In fact I would put the DA100 in the same class as the Paradisea. 

 Actually, overall I wasn't that impressed with the Stello: The bass was too weak in the bypass mode and the edges were too sharp in the upsampling mode; I didn't enjoy listening to either.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*You could run one via optical and one via USB. * Then you would just need switch the digital output on your computer while simultaneously turning the switch on the switchbox. At least, I can do this with my mac. [It is easier than patting your head and rubbing your tummy]. Even better, you could run them both via USB (assuming your super computer has two usb ports free). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't think that's going to work.

*USB and the Optical Do not sound the same on the DA100. *

 FWIW, at the last NY meet, the USB implementation of a Blue Circle Thingee (to either optical or coaxial) was preferred over the Stello's native USB by quite a number of people.

 USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look forward to reading your review S1rrah. I had the chance to compare the DA100 and the Havana a while ago and my conclusion was that the Havana was far superior to my tastes. In fact I would put the DA100 in the same class as the Paradisea. 

 Actually, overall I wasn't that impressed with the Stello: *The bass was too weak in the bypass mode *and the edges were too sharp in the upsampling mode; I didn't enjoy listening to either._

 

This is *not* the experience a number of us had at the last NY meet. The bass was noticeably stronger when upsampling was bypassed.

 USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look forward to reading your review S1rrah. I had the chance to compare the DA100 and the Havana a while ago and my conclusion was that the Havana was far superior to my tastes. In fact I would put the DA100 in the same class as the Paradisea. 

 Actually, overall I wasn't that impressed with the Stello: *The bass was too weak in the bypass mode *and the edges were too sharp in the upsampling mode; I didn't enjoy listening to either._

 

This is *not* the experience a number of us had at the last NY meet. The bass was noticeably stronger when upsampling was bypassed.

 USG


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I look forward to reading your review S1rrah. I had the chance to compare the DA100 and the Havana a while ago and my conclusion was that the Havana was far superior to my tastes. In fact I would put the DA100 in the same class as the Paradisea. 

 Actually, overall I wasn't that impressed with the Stello: The bass was too weak in the bypass mode and the edges were too sharp in the upsampling mode; I didn't enjoy listening to either._

 

More later, of course ...

 But I was personally and intitially _very_ impressed with the DA100 ...

 I could be biased, though, as I simply love the way it looks sitting on top of my HP100 amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway ... I found it to be rather enjoyable during my brief listen. Even some things I liked better than the Havana ... 

 But musically, the Havana invariably made me forget I was comparing two DACS and very subtly invited me to just continute listening instead of reviewing. The DA100, though intriguing, did not have that same effect on me.

 Again ... just preliminary ... 

 Gonna be fun this next week spending adequate time with both.

 And for the record ... once I get around to serious review listening ... I'm going to run both DACs via coaxial out of my sound card.

 Instead of running both simultaneously, I'm going to spend a full song with each, running separately and then comment on what the general experience was with each. 

 Direct A/B listening (via a switch, etc.) can be interesting but I find it far more effective to simply spend time with each bit of gear and for a full song's length ... and then ponder on what I was engaged by for each.

 Rock on.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is *not* the experience a number of us had at the last NY meet. The bass was noticeably stronger when upsampling was bypassed.

 USG_

 

Perhaps, I've gotten it mixed up. Either way, I felt like both modes had their inadequacies which made me uncomfortable listening to the DA100.

 Edit: Okay, so I remember now: It was the lack of detail in bypass mode and the lack of bass and digititis in upsampling mode that got to me.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More later, of course ...

 But I was personally and intitially very impressed with the DA100 ...

 I could be biased, though, as I simply love the way it looks sitting on top of my HP100 amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well it wouldn't surprise me at all if the HP100 and the DA100 have some special synergy. Overall, I felt like the Havana was just funner to listen to. I think the comment you made in your review of the Paradisea describes the situation well: With the DA100, it felt like I was listening to "sound effects" and not the actual music.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 More later, of course ...

 But I was personally and intitially very impressed with the DA100 ...




_

 


 Hi s1rrah

 How is the comparison going? 

 I have a Stello DA100 so I'm very interested in your findings. 

 One of my other DACs died recently and needs replacement. The Havana was one of those I was considering. 

 Your review is like a developing news story. Keep it coming... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Rock On........ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi s1rrah

 How is the comparison going? 

 I have a Stello DA100 so I'm very interested in your findings. 

 One of my other DACs died recently and needs replacement. The Havana was one of those I was considering. 

 Your review is like a developing news story. Keep it coming... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Rock On........ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

I won't be able to spend any real time comparing/listening to the two until next weekend. Work week and all and besides, such things require nearly a full day. 

 Should have a decent write up early first part of next week.

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## krisio06

Hi everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Have anyouone copared the Havana/ Paradisea3 to much more expensive DAC's such as North Star Design M192? In the future I am buying new DAC ( I can spend about 1000USD ) and MHDT products are very interesting for me ( custom sound using other tubes ). 
 I am gonna use it with mine Semi Vintage RS1 ( with buttons, in cardboard box ) and my GainClone ( Peter Daniel Premium kit, 300 W Traffo, Black Gates N, Neutrik connectors, Alps RK097 pot.).
 Can you help?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisio06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Have anyouone copared the Havana/ Paradisea3 to much more expensive DAC's such as North Star Design M192? In the future I am buying new DAC ( I can spend about 1000USD ) and MHDT products are very interesting for me ( custom sound using other tubes ). 
 I am gonna use it with mine Semi Vintage RS1 ( with buttons, in cardboard box ) and my GainClone ( Peter Daniel Premium kit, 300 W Traffo, Black Gates N, Neutrik connectors, Alps RK097 pot.).
 Can you help?_

 

Well I haven't heard the Northstar in particular but I do have a DIY Buffalo DAC which is supposed to be comparable to the Northstar. It is clear that the Buffalo DAC is more detailed, more neutral and more transparent compared to the Havana. On the other hand, the Havana has sweeter mids and is smoother. It also has this quality of being more fun to listen to.

 Overall, I don't think either DAC is strictly better than the other. The Havana definitely holds it's own against the Buffalo.

 On the other hand, I managed to find a vintage Sonic Frontiers DAC which completely blows the Havana away.


----------



## PascalT

Here's a brief review of the DAC so far after having listened to it for about a week.

 Here's my setup:












 My first impression of the DAC was pure amazement as the sound I was hearing was such a huge improvement over my Beresford TC7510 that I was giggling like a school girl. The soundstage had improved drastically and the sound now had a level of detail I had never heard before. Everything was punchier as well, the bass, the drums, everything felt more dynamic and more lively. The vocals were especially amazing as it felt like the singer was right next to me singing in my ear. The separation was also excellent. 

 I did feel however that the treble/highs were a bit too harsh at first. I believe that was just a weakness that burning in would alleviate a good amount as it has now not been an issue to me. I think the DAC's sound really evolves rapidly over the first 50 hours, and according to other people's experience it keeps evolving up to ~200 hours. I'm quite excited to see how it keeps improving past this stage.

 If I had to describe the sound of the Havana in a couple of words I'd say: detailed, musical yet silky smooth with excellent bass and attack. I have a limited experience with DACs but I'm quite amazed at how balanced it is. It handles all types of music very well. I've thrown all sorts of things at it from live acoustic to heavy metal and trance music and they all sound amazing. From heavy bass to instrumental acoustic song, this DAC can make all of them sing like an angel. For someone like me who listens to all sorts of music it's awesome. 

 For all the good things I've said about this DAC I cannot say enough about the differences the Bendix tube did to the sound. It tightened up everything and made everything even smoother and controlled. If you can get your hands on one of those tubes, you really should, it's well worth the investment and patience. It took the 9.5 sound to 10/10 for me.

 And as a final note, the DAC ships extremely quickly from Taiwan. I ordered mine on a Saturday and Thursday I had it (3-4 days shipping to Canada). They also sent me an extra tube, USB and power cable to my demand.

 Overall, an incredible DAC that will make me forget about upgrading for a LONG time. This is the sound I wanted out of my headphones for the last 2 yrs and I finally got it thanks to the Havana.


----------



## ttnl

Hey XXII, what is your Buffalo DAC configuration? I have just ordered the newest version of Buffalo DAC. Although the Buffalo is a DIY project, it costs me about the same as the HAVANA (~$900). It will be a big blow to me if the newest version Buffalo does not beat the Havana.
 Since you are in HK, have you had any chance to try out a Audio-Gd DAC? I would like to know


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey XXII, what is your Buffalo DAC configuration? I have just ordered the newest version of Buffalo DAC. Although the Buffalo is a DIY project, it costs me about the same as the HAVANA (~$900). It will be a big blow to me if the newest version Buffalo does not beat the Havana.
 Since you are in HK, have you had any chance to try out a Audio-Gd DAC? I would like to know_

 

My buffalo dac was built by fallenangel. It's not the newly released one. I'm not sure how much better the buffalo32 will be. I haven't had a chance to try out the audiogd yet but I hope to do so at some point. I can't see it being sognificantly better than the buffalo dac though


----------



## qusp

I would be surprised if the sabre32 didnt beat the pants off the havana (based on spec, but I guess we all know how much that means); in all areas except perhaps musicality. i'm waiting for the next round thanks to people like YOU 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 jk LOL. had to be quick off the mark to get one this round. wouldve blow too big a hole in my wallet anyway really. so pretty happy to wait till next time; I look forward to yours and others impressions though. I would consider a havana if it werent for the fact that I love to tweak and just the case alone empty would cost a crapload to ship to oz, so dacs like the sabre32 = win win for me as I have plenty of musical sounding gear to give a little life to the SQ. great looking stuff though and the tube output stage intrigues me.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Hey XXII, what is your Buffalo DAC configuration? I have just ordered the newest version of Buffalo DAC. Although the Buffalo is a DIY project, *it costs me about the same as the HAVANA (~$900)*. It will be a big blow to me if the newest version Buffalo does not beat the Havana.
 Since you are in HK, have you had any chance to try out a Audio-Gd DAC? I would like to know
_

 

*Hi ttnl

 Just to clairfy, you're saying the parts alone cost you $900?*

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Well I haven't heard the Northstar in particular but I do have a DIY Buffalo DAC which is supposed to be comparable to the Northstar. It is clear that the Buffalo DAC is more detailed, more neutral and more transparent compared to the Havana. On the other hand, the Havana has sweeter mids and is smoother. It also has this quality of being more* fun *to listen to.

 Overall, I don't think either DAC is strictly better than the other. The Havana definitely holds it's own against the Buffalo.

 On the other hand, I managed to find a vintage Sonic Frontiers DAC which completely blows the Havana away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_

 

*Hi 22

 You've used the word fun before, I'm not sure what you mean, would you be able to expand on that term?

 Thanks guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG*


----------



## krisio06

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I haven't heard the Northstar in particular but I do have a DIY Buffalo DAC which is supposed to be comparable to the Northstar. It is clear that the Buffalo DAC is more detailed, more neutral and more transparent compared to the Havana. On the other hand, the Havana has sweeter mids and is smoother. It also has this quality of being more fun to listen to.

 Overall, I don't think either DAC is strictly better than the other. The Havana definitely holds it's own against the Buffalo.

 On the other hand, I managed to find a vintage Sonic Frontiers DAC which completely blows the Havana away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You mean this one? :Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 vacuum tube DAC - eBay (item 320358956981 end time May-10-09 15:22:47 PDT)

 Maybe it's better than the Havana but it's 500$ more. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I heard about the Buffalo but I don't think that is the DAC for Grados ( can be to *neutral* to these headphones ). With Senns, Ok, but I'd like a DAC that would fit Grados. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PascalT- Your opinion is very interesing. I am an owner of Beresford TC7510 and I want to change it for something *much, much better*





 When I go to me dad's listening room and listen to his Cyrrus CD 8SE, it makes a difference between Beresford and that CD player. Can you tell us more about Havana/ Beresford TC7510 comparassion?


----------



## ttnl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Hi ttnl

 Just to clairfy, you're saying the parts alone cost you $900?*

 USG[/B]_

 

Yeah, Buffalo DAC board + 3 PSU + 3 Transfo + Toslink Module = 570 + 60 + 20 = 650
 Then the chassis cost about 100, misc costs about 50 more
 Total base cost is 800 now. Then if I want USB, I need to spen another 130 + the MUX board which is about 100
 Seriously, the new Buffalo DAC better live up to the expectation. At first I thought I get the better bang for the buck by going with DIY DAC, but I have to reconsider my decision now.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Overall, an incredible DAC that will make me forget about upgrading for a LONG time. This is the sound I wanted out of my headphones for the last 2 yrs and I finally got it thanks to the Havana._

 

Your new IC's are gonna be another huge improvement. Are you having silver or copper wire used? Or both?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 You've used the word fun before, I'm not sure what you mean, would you be able to expand on that term?

 Thanks guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 USG[/B]_

 

Well, for myself ... I used the word "fun" to describe gear that offers interesting sound 'effects' ... unnaturally big/snappy bass ... or detail that's so freakish I find myself focusing more on the various aspects of the high frequency image or the spatial separations than I do the music ... all sort of fun and peculiar and this can be enjoyable for a time.

 This differs dramatically from my interpretation of the term "musical" ...

 "Musical", to me anyway ... is the quality of any piece of gear to make you instantly forget about sonic anomalies or sound affects (or any other singular part of a song or production) and instead simply be carried away by the music. When my gear is "musical", I'm hearing the artist and the message and the players and the room and the reasons and not any given sonic anomaly associated with the piece.

 I prefer musicality, myself but know of many who prefer "fun" ...

 But again ... such terms are highly subjective in interpretation and those are just some of my own brief thoughts.


----------



## PascalT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisio06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Can you tell us more about Havana/ Beresford TC7510 comparassion? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's not too hard to compare. Take every single thing the Beresford does and improve it tenfold. It's night and day really. More clarity, more detail, LOTS more punch, much bigger soundstage, etc... I'd say the biggest differences are in the detail level and how engaging the Havana is compared to the Beresford.

 sirrah: the ICs are pure copper UP-OCC.


----------



## PascalT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I prefer musicality, myself but know of many who prefer "fun" ..._

 

I think that's where the Havana shines the most. It's highly detailed and clear but still extremely engaging and fun to listen to. I didn't want something too analytical like a DAC1 and I felt like the Paradisa might be a bit too "tubey" for the HD650s. The Havana feels like the best of both worlds.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Hi 22

 You've used the word fun before, I'm not sure what you mean, would you be able to expand on that term?

 Thanks guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG*_

 

Well I use the word "fun" to simply indicate "fun to listen to". I guess technically it's a combination of factors like musicality, smoothness, and Prat etc. (obviously this is highly subjective!)


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..._

 

Great review PascalT! I enjoyed reading it.


----------



## donunus

Just put the raytheon jrp-5670 tube in my dac. it is more organic than the bendix is the first impression i get


----------



## s1rrah

...

 So after a good 5 hours of listening and considering and writing ...

 I've finally managed to get a good review bit written up regarding the Stello DA100 vs. the Havana ...

 Here's the link:

 [size=large]*Stello DA100 vs. MHDT Havana - $1000.00 DAC Showdown!*[/size]

 ...

 enjoy.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just put the raytheon jrp-5670 tube in my dac. it is more organic than the bendix is the first impression i get_

 

In the end... It was only organic at first because its slightly darker... Bendix for the havana is still my fave with my ad900s


----------



## K3cT

Since my laptop only has USB, I wonder if someone here in this thread is using a USB converter like Blue Circle Thingee or Prodigy Cube to their Havana DAC to make use of its coax or tos-link output? 

 How's the Havana's implementation of USB anyway? Is it via conversion from SPDIF or I2S?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since my laptop only has USB, I wonder if someone here in this thread is using a USB converter like Blue Circle Thingee or Prodigy Cube to their Havana DAC to make use of its coax or tos-link output? 

 How's the Havana's implementation of USB anyway? Is it via conversion from SPDIF or I2S?_

 

I brought a laptop to the last NY meet along with a Blue Circle Thingee and a Stello DA100. The consensus was that the sound was better, Blue Circle > coax > Stello than what the Stello could do with it's own USB. That is interesting because IIRC, the Havana and the Stello use the same chip to do the conversion and I'd be willing to bet, if you could get it apart, the Thingee uses the same chip too.

 USG

 Edit to add photos


----------



## K3cT

@USG
 A lot better compared to your Stello DA100's USB? Less digital harshness and all that? 

 Hmm... I really dig that ghetto look of the Thingee. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you have experience with other converters like the HagUSB for example? How does the Thingee compare to that?

 EDIT: There's also a much cheaper option in the form of this: HA NG Coax-USB Converter. It uses _BB PCM2902E chip, 74HC04 high-speed plastic, and ST - DV709 Special digital audio coupler_ whatever they mean.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@USG
 A lot better compared to your Stello DA100's USB? Less digital harshness and all that? 

 Hmm... I really dig that ghetto look of the Thingee. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you have experience with other converters like the HagUSB for example? How does the Thingee compare to that?

 EDIT: There's also a much cheaper option in the form of this: HA NG Coax-USB Converter. It uses BB PCM2902E chip, 74HC04 high-speed plastic, and ST - DV709 Special digital audio coupler whatever they mean._

 

I don't have any hands on experience with any other converters except the ones built into my constantine (Thingee is much better) and Stello(Thingee is slightly better). The Trends UD10 uses the same chip as the Stello and should also do a good job too for less money than the Thingee.

 What bothers me about the Thingee is that you can't open it up to to see what's really in there. They are probably using the same chip as everyone else and get away with charging more, because there's no way to tell what they are actually using.

 There are some threads you can read comparing the Trends, Thingee and Hag. IIRC, they both were rated better than the Hag.

 USG


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Anybody know the size of hexagonal screw to use with Havana? Can you just swap the tubes from opening of front panel?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know the size of hexagonal screw to use with Havana? Can you just swap the tubes from opening of front panel?_

 

I'm not sure of the size ... I just used a cheap little allen wrench set and tried a couple till I found one that worked.

 And no.

 Definitely not advised to try removing the tube by first removing the front panel.

 Way easier (and possibly the only way) by removing the top panel.

 You would have to use an allen wrench on either scenario, though so just find one that fits the top screws ...

 Best.
 .jjoel


----------



## scootermafia

I think they're a 4/40 thread, not sure though. I swapped my stock screws out for grey titanium machine screws.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't have any hands on experience with any other converters except the ones built into my constantine (Thingee is much better) and Stello(Thingee is slightly better). The Trends UD10 uses the same chip as the Stello and should also do a good job too for less money than the Thingee.

 What bothers me about the Thingee is that you can't open it up to to see what's really in there. They are probably using the same chip as everyone else and get away with charging more, because there's no way to tell what they are actually using.

 There are some threads you can read comparing the Trends, Thingee and Hag. IIRC, they both were rated better than the Hag.

 USG_

 

Thanks! Plenty of time to do my research until I scraped enough funds to buy these anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 As a side question, upgrading your source will yield more improvement compared to upgrading amp no? I'm currently using the Audio-gd Compass and this thing already sounds pretty decent so I really want my next upgrade to really make a difference.


----------



## s1rrah

Will someone sell me *back* my Bendix 6385 tube for use in the Havana?

 [embarassed]

 I'm prepared to immediately PayPay you the exact amount you payed me.

 It's just that I've got this new RSA Raptor amp ... and .. well ... I just think the 6385 would be perfect for it and all ...

 So PM me if we can do some bizness.


----------



## donunus

Hi Joel,
 Have you ever tried the lm ericssons on your havana?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Joel,
 Have you ever tried the lm ericssons on your havana?_

 

No I have not.

 But I will.

 Wanna send me some?


----------



## donunus

Im looking for some myself. I could never win any of the auctions on ebay. Maybe If you win an auction of 2 or 8 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I could buy one from you.


----------



## s1rrah

Really decent deal on a "like new" Havana:

AudiogoN ForSale: Mhdt Labs Havana dac w s/pdif, usb -

 ...

 $650.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really decent deal on a "like new" Havana:

AudiogoN ForSale: Mhdt Labs Havana dac w s/pdif, usb -

 ...

 $650._

 

It says *"Sales Pending"*

 USG


----------



## vic1890

Hehe sigh, Joel, you have no clue on how many times I've looked at that Havana you posted the link of. If I could only afford it - but getting the Raptor, my funds have completely depleted!


----------



## twylight

that one is sold - i checked heh


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twylight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that one is sold - i checked heh_

 

And mines certainly not for sale ... so you guys are S.O.O.L.


----------



## kkib

I am interested in MHDT Havana DAC and was wondering if it will perform well connected to a fit-pc(2)? Any experience, insights?


----------



## scootermafia

My Havana sounds even better now with the GE 1962 swapped out for a NOS (yay yellow writing) WE 396A. Huge soundstage, way crisper but still silky smooth, bass penetrates a little deeper. The tube is very important...hehe


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Havana sounds even better now with the GE 1962 swapped out for a NOS (yay yellow writing) WE 396A. Huge soundstage, way crisper but still silky smooth, bass penetrates a little deeper. The tube is very important...hehe_

 

Is your WE 396A "JW" branded?

 If so, the tube will read JW WE396A.

 These tube are 100% better than the non JW branded tubes. I have had them both and it's amazing how much better the JW tubes are (the "JW" means military spec, as I understand it but Orcin might be able to clarify).

 You'll pay more for them but it's worth it. Got mine for 70 dollars from tube world.

 Main difference between the JW and non-JW is detail, air and resolution. 

 Best ...
 .joel


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kkib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am interested in MHDT Havana DAC and was wondering if it will perform well connected to a fit-pc(2)? Any experience, insights?_

 

RE: Fit-PC2??

 Yes. As long as you've got either a coaxial/toslink or USB output to feed the Havana ... it would be excellent with that little unit.

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## kkib

Thanks, joel. I ordered a fit-pc2.

 Now I need to find a Havana. Do they show up on the used market often?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kkib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, joel. I ordered a fit-pc2.

 Now I need to find a Havana. Do they show up on the used market often?_

 

Stalk Audiogon (AudiogoN high end audio auctions, classifieds, hifi chat) and search regularly ... they come up their more than anywhere else, really. Very seldom here at Head-fi.

 Good luck.

 .joel


----------



## DarKu

Recieved my Havana yesterday.
 It looks very nice, i really like the black anodised aluminium and the light of the tube in the night, it is just stunnig to look at.
 Yesterday i listened to the music till 02.00 in the morning. Even before burn-in this DAC sounds more, more and again a lot more musical and involving compared to what a have or ever heard. Without burn-in and without a proper tube i really enjoyed the sound, so much weight to the music without a gram of sibilance or brightness, a very relaxing, smooth, musical sound. I liked how it sounds so much that today i got a day off from my job
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and started to listen to the music from morning again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 till now..
 So far, without a doubt this is my best purchase in my audio history i ever did, i think i will keep it for a loooong time ...
 More impressions after i will get an NOS Cryo JW WE396A.
 Now i can happily retire from head-fi, it seems that i found what i was looking for, everytime i upgraded to something better i found my system lacking of something, but never really knew what i wanted more, it was just..not so involving, not so musical, not so smooth and relaxing, now it is just a different story!
 Regards,
 Darku


----------



## GLdgShDjKsHT

congrats, i hope you'll enjoy it for a long time


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kkib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, joel. I ordered a fit-pc2.

 Now I need to find a Havana. Do they show up on the used market often?_

 

I might be selling my havana soon with all 4 tubes... I might downgrade to a pico dac since I'm on the move more. My havana is 220 volts though but Ive heard its easy to convert to 110.


----------



## alexboo12

hehe, let me know if you do want to sell it. I am in Bangkok at the moment so 220v is fine by me.
 Cheers,
 AP


----------



## donunus

Its already posted on the FS forum. I've already got a PM but no definites yet so first come first serve


----------



## donunus

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs...s-sold-430285/

 heres the link for the Havana for sale. Sorry for the bad pic. I don't have a nice camera


----------



## kkib

I missed the one on Audiogon. The price was very good too.


----------



## donunus

.


----------



## scootermafia

Well, I just relented and moved my gaming computer into my listening room, replacing my Macbook Pro + optical with my PC + USB into my Havana with WE396A. I'm using Foobar with Kernel Streaming. It sounds way, way better. Bigger, more intense, more transparent...better everything. Fail source was fail.


----------



## DoYouRight

these have always intrigued me but the tube sound makes me think I should listen before I invest in it as an alternative to a Buffalo. Anyone have both to compare?


----------



## XXII

I've had both. I don't think the buffalo supersedes the Havana. It depends on what you are looking for: for example, the Buffalo (with Ivy) is very neutral and detailed while the Havana is slightly less detailed but more musical.


----------



## DoYouRight

musical meaning warmer? or what?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_musical meaning warmer? or what?_

 

From the Glossary: 

 "Musical (or musicality) - A sense of cohesion and subjective "rightness" in the sound."

 Don't forget of course, that you can roll tubes in the Havana for different flavours.


----------



## DoYouRight

so as you kept the buffalo by your sig you preferred the neutrality?


----------



## scootermafia

If the $900 Havana can keep up with just about the best DIY DAC out there, that's good news...should help with the upgradeitis. Foobar is a big improvement, I'm loving it.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so as you kept the buffalo by your sig you preferred the neutrality?_

 

My Sonic Frontiers DAC covers my "musical" needs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the $900 Havana can keep up with just about the best DIY DAC out there, that's good news...should help with the upgradeitis. Foobar is a big improvement, I'm loving it._

 

It's not really about "keeping up". Obviously, on paper, the Havana doesn't compare with the Buffalo. But I can definitely understand that some people would prefer the Havana over the Buffalo DAC.


----------



## scootermafia

Well yeah, if you say the Havana is still enjoyable compared to the Buffalo and isn't totally shamed by it, then that's about what I'd like to hear.


----------



## DarKu

for me Havana is the most musical DAC i heard, by musical i mean very enjoyable and easy to listen, brings a big "fun" factor to the music, it is not about warm/bright/dark/upfront, it is just about the joy to listen to the music. It is also a non-fatiguing source wich i like a lot, with SS sources i always get a bit o sibilance and some fatiguing sound, not any more! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Edit: Forgot to tell, go to a rock concert or to an Opera, then come home and listen to a SS source and then the Havana, you'll understand why Havana it is natural sounding, it presents a more life like music, just like a real concert.


----------



## Towert7

You know, I thought I liked my Paradisea and Havana when I used it with my HD650 or HF-1, but upgrading to the HE60 I found out just how much hidden potential this little dac has.

 Fantastic piece of equipment!


----------



## donunus

towert7, what tube is your current fave for the Havana?


----------



## DoYouRight

that makes me nervous about a buffalo, is it great but bland sounding?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_towert7, what tube is your current fave for the Havana?_

 

I just have two nice WE396A's in my two units. One is an old one, one is a little more recent. Both sound fantastic to me, so I'm happy. And, to be honest, they were a very good price.


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that makes me nervous about a buffalo, is it great but bland sounding?_

 

If by bland you mean neutral, then yes it is very neutral and detailed. I personally love mine, as its better than my Cary 306 SACD as a DAC. I don't find it too cold and analytical like my previous Cambridge 840C, it's a good balance. I also owned the havana but ended up selling it.


----------



## Stevesebastianb

I am very happy with my Havana!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just have two nice WE396A's in my two units. One is an old one, one is a little more recent. Both sound fantastic to me, so I'm happy. And, to be honest, they were a very good price._

 

The "JW" branded versions of the very same tube will astound you.

 Get one (them).

 10x more quiet, detailed and lovely:

 1 tube $80) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1955 original box (35/26 and 41/26) (recommended)
 1 tube $80) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (35/26 and 41/26)
 1 tube $70) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (32/26 and 36/26)
 1 tube $55) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (30/26 and 38/26)
 1 tube $60) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1954 original box (32/26 and 41/26)
 1 tube $70) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (34/26 and 40/26)
 1 tube $60) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1959 original box (31/26 and 34/26)
 1 tube $49) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1954 original box (32/26 and 29/26)
 1 tube $49) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1959 original box (30/26 and 33/26)

 ...

 All of them at Tubeworld.com.

 I couldn't find a safe and fast way to paste a direct link ... so your on your own.

 Good luck.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The "JW" branded versions of the very same tube will astound you.

 Get one (them).

 10x more quiet, detailed and lovely:

 1 tube $80) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1955 original box (35/26 and 41/26) (recommended)
 1 tube $80) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (35/26 and 41/26)
 1 tube $70) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (32/26 and 36/26)
 1 tube $55) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (30/26 and 38/26)
 1 tube $60) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1954 original box (32/26 and 41/26)
 1 tube $70) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1956 original box (34/26 and 40/26)
 1 tube $60) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1959 original box (31/26 and 34/26)
 1 tube $49) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1954 original box (32/26 and 29/26)
 1 tube $49) JW-2C51 WE NOS 1959 original box (30/26 and 33/26)

 ...

 All of them at Tubeworld.com.

 I couldn't find a safe and fast way to paste a direct link ... so your on your own.

 Good luck.




_

 

Who said mine wasn't a JW?


----------



## DarKu

i'm getting a Cryoed JW WE396A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 can't wait


----------



## donunus

just ordered an ericsson 2c51... cant wait to see what all the fuss is about with these tubes


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who said mine wasn't a JW?_

 

Silly me. There I go again. Jumping to conclusions.


----------



## DoYouRight

Thanks Rice that is helpful, I was worried I might need to get a Havana and Buffalo to have some help with poorly mastered cd's and the Havana to not show the flaws as bad.


----------



## spahn_ranch

Is anyone pairing a tube amp with the Havana?

 I just ordered HF-2's and planning on getting a MAD EAR+ HD amp. Next in line for upgrade would be my V-DAC, and the Havana has been on my mind due to USB; NOS; favourable user reports; manageable size and weight (transportable computer-audio system).

 Too much tubes? What do you think?


----------



## DoYouRight

im thinking it should be nice if they have similar tubes! and later on if you feel its too "tubey" throw a SS amp with the havana and ss dac with the ear+


----------



## spahn_ranch

From a more general perspective and of course in terms of mo better hi quality sound, does anyone have any good reasons for whether it should matter where in a system tube components are placed; up- or downstream?


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spahn_ranch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone pairing a tube amp with the Havana?

 I just ordered HF-2's and planning on getting a MAD EAR+ HD amp. Next in line for upgrade would be my V-DAC, and the Havana has been on my mind due to USB; NOS; favourable user reports; manageable size and weight (transportable computer-audio system).

 Too much tubes? What do you think?_

 

Im having so much fun changing tubes on both havana and tube amp. Changing a tube on havana is already fun, but also by changing tubes on the amp, I have more choices of sounds I would like to play around for different headphones.


----------



## donunus

this dac really lets you play with the wallet too. the tubes are pretty expensive with rare tubes costing over 100 bucks


----------



## Kclone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spahn_ranch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone pairing a tube amp with the Havana?

 I just ordered HF-2's and planning on getting a MAD EAR+ HD amp. Next in line for upgrade would be my V-DAC, and the Havana has been on my mind due to USB; NOS; favourable user reports; manageable size and weight (transportable computer-audio system).

 Too much tubes? What do you think?_

 

That is going to be a great setup. Good luck.


----------



## spahn_ranch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kclone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is going to be a great setup. Good luck._

 

It'll be the best I've had, that's for sure, cheers!

 Did anyone here purchase or otherwise know whether MHDT's $95 "powercord basic" is a good value -- "best buy" for the Havana?


----------



## donunus

OOOOHHH MMMMY! LM Ericsson Tube blows every other tube ive had to dust! Ive never heard such realistic sounding cymbals. such a quiet background, such a lovely tone. such defined mids. wow everyone that has a havana needs to get one


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spahn_ranch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone pairing a tube amp with the Havana?

 I just ordered HF-2's and planning on getting a MAD EAR+ HD amp. Next in line for upgrade would be my V-DAC, and the Havana has been on my mind due to USB; NOS; favourable user reports; manageable size and weight (transportable computer-audio system).

 Too much tubes? What do you think?_

 

I am happy with Paradisea 3 not Hava pairing with WA6SE. Well balance with many choices of tubes to roll and roll. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im having so much fun changing tubes on both havana and tube amp. Changing a tube on havana is already fun, but also by changing tubes on the amp, I have more choices of sounds I would like to play around for different headphones._

 

I ended up buying more tubes .... He he

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OOOOHHH MMMMY! LM Ericsson Tube blows every other tube ive had to dust! Ive never heard such realistic sounding cymbals. such a quiet background, such a lovely tone. such defined mids. wow everyone that has a havana needs to get one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Glad to hear that you received such great tube and I may wanna try it out with my DAC..


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OOOOHHH MMMMY! LM Ericsson Tube blows every other tube ive had to dust! Ive never heard such realistic sounding cymbals. such a quiet background, such a lovely tone. such defined mids. wow everyone that has a havana needs to get one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

too much wow factor. Give it a few months and tells us if you still like it.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

LM ericsson gold should be used for any critical listening session. its fast, detailed, has enough soundstage & tight bass. But sometimes too bright for me when listening violin for hours.


----------



## donunus

the ericsson 2c51 is not as bright as the stock tube but brighter than we396a which is too dull for me


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_too much wow factor. Give it a few months and tells us if you still like it._

 

I don't usually get wowed by anything except neutrality so I have a feeling I'll use these til they are busted


----------



## PascalT

So i've had the Havana for around 2 months. At first I was really pleased with the sound, but 2 months later there's something wrong. I don't really think the issue is with the Havana though. I thought maybe someone here could help me troubleshoot it.

 There's a slight grain in the sound now, and overall it just doesn't sound as good in just about every aspect. Could it be a bad tube on my amp? I also tried USB from Optical from the Havana and it was pretty bad. I tried switching from 96khz to 44khz in foobar and it sounded worse again.

 Is it possible my amp is starting to give out? I've had it for 2 yrs I think, using it every day almost. Is there anything I can look out for in the driver tubes for signs of wear?

 thanks


----------



## spahn_ranch

I don't have a Havana, but read the various and scattered posts on Head-Fi, and according to a couple of reports, MHDT says the old Burr Brown PCM56P can need replacement.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

If you have a spare tube, try it on before taking out the BB PCM56P.


----------



## donunus

listening through a bunch of my recordings and wow just wow... These Ericssons sound like all positives of the we396a and bendix 2c51 combined in one without the weaknesses. Quiet as the bendix at least from memory and creamy as the 396a without the upper mid glare and much better bass than both and realistic highs. As if all that isn't enough, THE MIDS! I feel like listening to vinyl without the negatives(pops, ticks, hassle, etc...)


----------



## DoYouRight

I would check your tubes and or any fuses in the stream? Or a cable mishap. Test each unit in the chain singlehandedly.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So i've had the Havana for around 2 months. At first I was really pleased with the sound, but 2 months later there's something wrong. I don't really think the issue is with the Havana though. I thought maybe someone here could help me troubleshoot it.

 There's a slight grain in the sound now, and overall it just doesn't sound as good in just about every aspect. Could it be a bad tube on my amp? I also *tried USB from Optical *from the Havana and it was pretty bad. *I tried switching from 96khz to 44khz in foobar *and it sounded worse again.

 Is it possible my amp is starting to give out? I've had it for 2 yrs I think, using it every day almost. Is there anything I can look out for in the driver tubes for signs of wear?

 thanks_

 

I have a Constantine and found its USB implementation to be poor when I tried to use it with a laptop, so I bought a "Thingee" to use as a transport and that solved the USB problem. But you have a 710 card, so that isn't really a problem for you.

 I don't understand how you have foobar configured? Where are you selecting 96khz?

 USG


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spahn_ranch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't have a Havana, but read the various and scattered posts on Head-Fi, and according to a couple of reports, MHDT says the old Burr Brown PCM56P can need replacement._

 

could anyone else confirm this? I have never heard this before. If the chip has to be replaced every couple of years, this is NOT GOOD .... I just can't (don't wanna) believe it.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_could anyone else confirm this? I have never heard this before. If the chip has to be replaced every couple of years, this is NOT GOOD .... I just can't (don't wanna) believe it._

 

I've never heard anything about replacing chips. ??? Can you post some reference links to back that sort of claim up?

 @Pascal ...

 Good luck mang ... hope it works out. Not to rub salt into wounds and all ... but I'm love'n the Havana DAC still. Could not imagine replacing it. 

 Perfect match with my RSA RAptor tube amp and my GS1000's ...

 Sonic sex.


----------



## spahn_ranch

At your service,
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/da-...7/#post5168591

 IIRC it's mentioned elsewhere too; you know that to do.

 Thomas


----------



## PascalT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would check your tubes and or any fuses in the stream? Or a cable mishap. Test each unit in the chain singlehandedly._

 

Is there anything specific i should look for inside the DAC's box?

 96khz: I use a resampler for it in Foobar, it sounds a lot better than the std 44.1khz sound for some reason. Much nicer soundstage.

 I tried other tube amps and it wasn't the problem.. guess tomorrow i'll try my generic cables and see if those might be the problem.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there anything specific i should look for inside the DAC's box?

*96khz: I use a resampler for it in Foobar, it sounds a lot better than the std 44.1khz sound for some reason*. Much nicer soundstage.

 I tried other tube amps and it wasn't the problem.. guess tomorrow i'll try my generic cables and see if those might be the problem._

 

What happened to bit perfect?

 Are you using DS, KS or ASIO4ALL?

 USG


----------



## PascalT

I use WASAPI. I don't know about the bit-perfect part all I know is it sounds better with the 96khz resampler on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 there's an obvious difference to me.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use WASAPI. I don't know about the bit-perfect part all I know is it sounds better with the 96khz resampler on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 there's an obvious difference to me._

 

That's curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 USG


----------



## pzm9pzm9

when you set the wasapi in vista, do u need foobar volume to be 100%? i think i read somewhere it is recommened. if so, what is the reason behind of it?


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_when you set the wasapi in vista, do u need foobar volume to be 100%? i think i read somewhere it is recommened. if so, what is the reason behind of it?_

 

Yes 100%....Control volume with amp.....Maxxed volume on media player = Better dynamics, extension and basically no middle man...


----------



## DoYouRight

Wow I never knew that about 100% volume on foobar


----------



## Koolpsych

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow I never knew that about 100% volume on foobar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Same, in fact I had previously asked this question on the forum and people at the time said foobar volume control did not matter.


----------



## btbluesky

I've posted on foobar forum awhile ago about this same question. I cannot remotely understand why foobar volume is working AT ALL when you're using ASIO/WASAPI, because just like using a SPDIF out of a good cd player, the vol should not be working at all, coz......it's freakin digital. That's the reason why we have a DAC....!to convert!

 Winamp+ASIO_out plugin+ASIO4ALL....vol wouldn't work. Same for J river jukebox w/ builtin ASIO out plugin. Only foobar does that.

 Finally a senior member/admin posted that IF the output is ASIO/WASAPI, foobar add a type of preamp layer for sound vol. 
 From that day on I have not touch foobar. j river jukebox sounds superb to me w/ my office equip (paradisea-ASL MG III-HD600).

 If someone know something diff than that, please lemme know.


----------



## donunus

so youre saying its not bitperfect anymore because of the volume control? Wouldn't the software go out of sync if it cant do bitperfect or something like that?


----------



## btbluesky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so youre saying its not bitperfect anymore because of the volume control? Wouldn't the software go out of sync if it cant do bitperfect or something like that?_

 

which software out of sync?? There are only 2 software involve foobar->ASIO4ALL->(hardware)DAC chip, signal goes in that order. Before foobar send the 010101 to ASIO, vol changes the signal.

 It's in theory/logically speaking impossible to have a vol control in the digital stream and bit perfect UNLESS there is a builtin software switch that says 

_if (vol == 100)
 {
 do direct_stream_without_changing_a_thing
 }
 else 
 { Apply_a_preamp_layer_and_do_digital_vol_change_the n_send_signal(vol).
 }_

 Remember, at this stage its pure software and digital. Changing vol is like changing 10010101 to 10010100. How is it possible to be bit-perfect.

 I do these stuff 8 hrs a day, so I kinda know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . I do admit it sounds pretty damn good even when I'm changing the vol. But I can't use something I'm not sure.


----------



## btbluesky

BTW. I was just resetting up my machine at work, and comparing J river jbox and winamp5 w/ asio plugin. somehow even between them they sound diff. I'd like to hear someone's exp on that as well.


----------



## donunus

Thats what I was thinking.. the if vol=100 then no preamp software. Wasn't there a volume control disable in foobar before?


----------



## btbluesky

I didn't use foobar too far back. But several versions I used recently, do not have that disable function. As for the vol/preamp, the member who reply me on that forum w/ certainty that if its ASIO/WASAPI, foobar add a layer of preamp to make vol works. He didn't say there's an if statement in the code, or if it's disable when in 100%, its just my "hope". 

 The thing is when u try and change the digital vol, even the simplest logic would require calcuations. Thats why NOBODY does volume changing before DAC. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a company call ALPS electric, building the best damn knob in the world.

 Take benchmark DAC1 HDR....from website:

_The DAC1 HDR features Benchmark’s HDR-VC™ (High Dynamic Range Volume Control). The HDR-VC™ is achieved with a custom-built motorized Alps potentiometer. The DAC1 HDR’s motor-driven volume control maintains the dynamic range of the converter and audio output. In contrast, digital volume controls reduce dynamic range, and analog volume IC’s introduce distortion and noise._

 'nuff said...


----------



## PascalT

So for someone using Vista what would you recommend I use? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I put my foobar at WASAPI and I always leave the volume at 100%, i just use my amp for that.

 And about my noise issue.. I swapped amp tubes and tried a different IC and it didn't fix it. I also tried a different optical input on my computer.. no dice. Is there a way to find out if my DAC tube is dying? What about my amp power tubes? It's driving me nuts because from the day I got the DAC to now there's a huge difference in sound. This seems to happen every few months after I upgrade part of my rig.. it sounds awesome at first and then later on I just get annoyed because it doesn't sound nearly as good anymore.. but this is a big difference, there's a constant subtle noise overlaying all my tracks and i'd say out of 10 on a quality rating it now sounds like a 4.


----------



## btbluesky

Maybe you can try using ASIO4ALL with J River Jukebox and see if that helps.
 I tested it w/ winamp and foobar, and it comes out ahead for my setup. YMMV
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BUT a noise like is not normal at all, even when using a bad setup, it shouldn't be like that. If using that combo dun solve it. Maybe u can try test it going from source all the way down to amp one by one:
 - Use ASIO, but select your soundcard as DAC to decode the sound, use any 3.5mm headphone and see if your soundcard analog IC is working good with ASIO. If you can borrow a USB DAC from someone would be better, one layer of doubt eliminated.
 - Then test the DAC, ASIO select that DAC u using, and use another amp to see if the noise is from DAC. You can even use car sound setup to test. IF you have an amp and speakers in car that are decent, hook it up from DAC to that amp. IF there are such noise.dac is no good.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PascalT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So for someone using Vista what would you recommend I use? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I put my foobar at WASAPI and I always leave the volume at 100%, i just use my amp for that.

 And about my noise issue.. I swapped amp tubes and tried a different IC and it didn't fix it. I also tried a different optical input on my computer.. no dice. Is there a way to find out if my DAC tube is dying? What about my amp power tubes? It's driving me nuts because from the day I got the DAC to now there's a huge difference in sound. This seems to happen every few months after I upgrade part of my rig.. it sounds awesome at first and then later on I just get annoyed because it doesn't sound nearly as good anymore.. but this is a big difference, there's a constant subtle noise overlaying all my tracks and i'd say out of 10 on a quality rating it now sounds like a 4. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## twylight

I just got my havana - very nice upgrade in clarity. Ill roll my tube stock - I dont think they will sound too different with the change (coming from a paradisea+)

 This is very revealing - if you have a havana and cant tell the difference between CD and mp3 you might need an audiologist...


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twylight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 if you have a havana and cant tell the difference between CD and mp3 you might need an audiologist..._

 

Either that or your mp3 encoder just sucks.


----------



## donunus

I was wondering if you guys have any recommended ASIO4ALL settings for the havana.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wondering if you guys have any recommended ASIO4ALL settings for the havana._


----------



## donunus

can you highlight the usb audio dacs settings. The setting youre showing is not even enabled


----------



## DoYouRight

what is a good buffer size?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is a good buffer size?_

 

long enough that you don't get skips when playing the music. Typical defaults are 1second I think on foobar2000 with Kernal Streaming.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_long enough that you don't get skips when playing the music. Typical defaults are 1second I think on foobar2000 with Kernal Streaming._

 

I've used the default Asi04all settings with no problems.


----------



## donunus

My cousin that got his Havana at the same time I did is modding his havana now with new caps. He is using inexpensive but well known to be great Russian military caps(forgot the brand, all I know is that it is green in color) and he has reported the difference like a faucet being half open with the stock caps while now being fully opened with better transparency/dynamics/instrument separation, you name it with just the 2 caps before the tubes being changed. He is also doing a full mod with all the power supply caps changed next week too to see what that does and is bringing the dac over to me to do some listening comparisons with my unmodded havana. Well see just how much better this baby can grow. His first impressions are that the sound is night and day and more substantial than just changing tubes but instead of just changing a little of the flavor of the sound, we get a clearer window to the sound with this mod.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My cousin that got his Havana at the same time I did is modding his havana now with new caps. He is using inexpensive but well known to be great Russian military caps(forgot the brand, all I know is that it is green in color) and he has reported the difference like a faucet being half open with the stock caps while now being fully opened with better transparency/dynamics/instrument separation, you name it with just the 2 caps before the tubes being changed. He is also doing a full mod with all the power supply caps changed next week too to see what that does and is bringing the dac over to me to do some listening comparisons with my unmodded havana. Well see just how much better this baby can grow. His first impressions are that the sound is night and day and more substantial than just changing tubes but instead of just changing a little of the flavor of the sound, we get a clearer window to the sound with this mod._

 

Some visuals on the mods will be great.


----------



## s1rrah

Second on the pics!

 I was considering wading into the Havana mod myself but decided not too.

 Also, the guys at HotRod Audio (pretty reputable mod crew) wanted me to send my Havana to them for some adjustments as well (for about 350 US). 

 May still do the Hot Rod Audio thing but for now am still utterly pleased with the stock Havana.


----------



## donunus

hahaha $350 is a business. I'm not spending more than $10 to mod mine. Were talking cheap and effective here. I dont have pics because my cousin is out of town. I'll definitely take those pics when he arrives to mod mine.


----------



## s1rrah

A recent Havana review that I just stumbled upon:

_"So you can add this reviewer to the Mhdt Lab fan club! When it comes to making a decent sounding DAC, they certainly appear to know what they are doing. The Havana gets a very hearty recommendation. I started this review talking about how a lot of (if not most) hi-fi is sold these days, ie directly from the Far East. ... "_

 ...

 More here:

Mhdt Lab Havana DAC review - [English]

 ...

 Fair review.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Read that review sometime back and indeed it is a well written review. I move up from Paradisea 3 to Havana today. As expected the package came fast, only 3 days from Taiwan following the recent typhoon. Appearance wise, it looks the same as my Paradisea 3 as it is also is housed in the brushed aluminum casing with smoked acrylic front panel. Better sonic even before it is broken in. I find the stock tube is too bright for my liking and I switched it with the 50's Bendix 2C51 from the previous DAC. More impression to come soon.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read that review sometime back and indeed it is a well written review. I move up from Paradisea 3 to Havana today. As expected the package came fast, only 3 days from Taiwan following the recent typhoon. Appearance wise, it looks the same as my Paradisea 3 as it is also is housed in the brushed aluminum casing with smoked acrylic front panel. Better sonic even before it is broken in. I find the stock tube is too bright for my liking and I switched it with the 50's Bendix 2C51 from the previous DAC. More impression to come soon._

 

Since you are selling your Paradisea, you will not be able to compare them in two weeks time. So I was wondering, what differences have you heard even before the havana is broken in?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since you are selling your Paradisea, you will not be able to compare them in two weeks time. So I was wondering, what differences have you heard even before the havana is broken in?_

 

Straight out of the box, I am hearing tighter bass, more details and better focus on vocal. On some track, it is awesomely musical too. All this comes with additional cost... So I need to part with the Paradisea 3 to recover from financial burden. I wish I could keep both, maybe at later time.. 

 I wonder what would I be hearing what what should I be expecting in 2 weeks time? Will there be any similarity to a bigger setup like I used to owned ARC CD3 MKII ~ ARC VSi55 ~ Sonus Faber Concertino Domus?? I will do an A/B test by then if I am still holding on to the Paradisea 3.


----------



## DarKu

Recieved my Kuhl Tube (Cryo) JW WE396A, put it inside, turned on my Havana and......HOLY SH!T, what a difference compared with the stock tube!
 Everything just sound more balanced with more of everything, better image, detail, soundstage and a lot better bass
 Love it!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Recieved my Kuhl Tube (Cryo) JW WE396A, put it inside, turned on my Havana and......HOLY SH!T, what a difference compared with the stock tube!
 Everything just sound more balanced with more of everything, better image, detail, soundstage and a lot better bass
 Love it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah. That tube is a definite winner. Congratz!


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I wonder what power cables you guys uses for the great Havana? I am currently using a Black Rhodium Jazz Super Mains Cable and it sounds meaty and warm.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder what power cables you guys uses for the great Havana? I am currently using a Black Rhodium Jazz Super Mains Cable and it sounds meaty and warm._

 

LOL.

 I'm using a Black Sand's "Violet" with my Havana. 

 Lovely.


----------



## kostas

Hello all,
 I'm a new happy owner of havana dac and I'd like to know from your experience when burn in period completes.
 At first havana was very very sweet and smooth (day 1). Now (day 4) is quite more harsh in the mid-high region but with more dynamics and body.
 Will things calm down? My tube is ericsson 2c51 NOS. 
 A friend of mine told me that these capacitors take 300 hours to burn in, and mhdt says 1 month for the tube! 

 I can't wait!

 K.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello all,
 I'm a new happy owner of havana dac and I'd like to know from your experience when burn in period completes.
 At first havana was very very sweet and smooth (day 1). Now (day 4) is quite more harsh in the mid-high region but with more dynamics and body.
 Will things calm down? My tube is ericsson 2c51 NOS. 
 A friend of mine told me that these capacitors take 300 hours to burn in, and mhdt says 1 month for the tube! 

 I can't wait!

 K._

 

Welcome to the club. MHDT is right... A month continuous burn in is the best and have now worries on the tube as it will out last your DAC. Enjoy the changes together with the great music.


----------



## DarKu

Also you may change the 2c51 with a JW WE396A for a more lush, warm and involving sound, a Cryoed WE396A it is even better!
 Congrats on your new toy, i really love mine


----------



## AdamWysokinski

A pair of very inexpensive (~2 EUR for a pair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) Tesla 6CC42 tubes has arrived today. Must say it sounds very nice - the difference between stock tube and this one is not huge, but overall - the sound is nicer, as if more "refined" - I'm listening to Motets by J.S. Bach and all these background sounds and noises made by choir singers (pretty frightening when listening at night 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) are less distracting. I like it


----------



## kostas

thanks for the replies guys!
 I should wait before I make any changes or make a definite comment about the dac. For now the sound is full (just like adding a nice pre amp I might dare to say!) but not so dead quiet and smooth as I would like to. 
 I hope it's all about the burn-in... we'll see!
 Also I'm wondering if the dac is extra sensitive to ac noise junk.. (I'm using a plain power cable) 
 cheers!


----------



## boozcool

Kostas,
 When you mention how it is not so dead quiet, are you speaking about the static/crackling that is present during use? I'm not sure if its my unit in particular, but there is significant noise when using the DAC that is especially obvious during quiet moments of a song. I switched out the tubes, amplifier, and cans, but the static remains the same... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Does anyone else have the same issue?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boozcool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kostas,
 When you mention how it is not so dead quiet, are you speaking about the static/crackling that is present during use? I'm not sure if its my unit in particular, but there is significant noise when using the DAC that is especially obvious during quiet moments of a song. I switched out the tubes, amplifier, and cans, but the static remains the same... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Does anyone else have the same issue?_

 

As I mentioned via PM ... my DAC is perfectly quiet ... and considering I'm using it with a Raptor amp, which is notorious for it's background silence, I feel pretty confident in saying that.

 That said ... 

 Something you might investigate is your power chain ... maybe try a different outlet/power cord? I know a very dirty power feed can definitely translate to audible static from your gear. Also, are you running to your DAC/amp from a power conditioner or power strip? If so, what are the other devices plugged into that? Maybe try a process of elimination?

 Also, inspect/clean all your interconnects. As well, try different interconnects.

 Finally, there have been a couple Havana owners who have had strange noise issues ... but more so distortion in certain frequency ranges (bass especially) as opposed to noise in the silent areas of a track. These folks have reported very good experiences with sending the DAC back to MHDT for a replacement unit. So if all else fails, try contacting MHDT Labs directly and discuss the issue with them. They are good folk to deal with regarding such issues. 

 Best and good luck.


----------



## kostas

boozcool I haven't noticed any background noise. what I've noticed is a little fuss with large orchestras of violins, like things are not settled down yet, a sort of signal stress, especially with classical music but I suppose this is a combination of bad quality power signal during the day and not burned in equipment. 

 Overall havana dac is an absolutely great piece of equipment, a real bargain. I've tried some dacs before, including more expensive and "famous" but havana dac has the soul and expression I was looking for, without all that unnecessary glare and sparkle. I say it again, it performs like a good tube preamp. A happy surprise!


----------



## boozcool

Thanks guys for the replies
 Just sent an email to MHDT, so I'm sure I will hear back from them soon
 After switching out the Havana for the Constantine, there was significantly less noise... I also tried plugging the Havana directly into the wall as opposed to the power conditioner, with no change
 The Havana is a spectacular DAC, and I have been absolutely floored by how amazing it sounds, so this is no doubt a keeper, just as soon as the noise issue is addressed


----------



## koven

i wish i knew if this was an upgrade from the pico.. ugh, cant decide if it's worth it


----------



## scootermafia

Of course it will be a significant upgrade...the Havana is very well regarded and I know how an 8740 wolfson DAC sounds compared to it...

 Positive Feedback just compared the Havana in a full review to the Wavelength Audio $3500 USB DAC which packs all sorts of bells and whistles, and said that the Havana stomped the Wavelength. So it's not just our imagination that it's a great DAC...it has a very purist design compared to my Audiogd Ref1/DAC8 -- it's hard to say how big of an upgrade the Audiogd is since I never got to use my Havana with my Phoenix.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boozcool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks guys for the replies
 Just sent an email to MHDT, so I'm sure I will hear back from them soon
 After switching out the Havana for the Constantine, there was significantly less noise... I also tried plugging the Havana directly into the wall as opposed to the power conditioner, with no change
 The Havana is a spectacular DAC, and I have been absolutely floored by how amazing it sounds, so this is no doubt a keeper, just as soon as the noise issue is addressed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The unit I am having is dead quiet. Have you try changing the tube? It may just be a bad tube and it saves you from unnecessary shipping cost.


----------



## DarKu

I have a Pico that i use at work,
 At home there is no doubt that i love the Havana a lot more, I'm not saying the Pico is bad, it' great but the Havana it is ever greater. I don't think I will ever sell my Havana no matter what 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Edit: Oh, and my Havana is deadly dead quiet, absolutely black background, no hiss, no noise, no piercing hights, just pure music


----------



## kostas

can anyone tell me what are the differences between ericsson 2c51 goldpin (which I own) and JW WE396A?, which has more body and control?
 I've noticed that the plates in ericsson are about 2/3 of the size of stocked GE5670, well the sound of ericsson is much much more refined but I think GE has a little better drive


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can anyone tell me what are the differences between ericsson 2c51 goldpin (which I own) and JW WE396A?, which has more body and control?
 I've noticed that the plates in ericsson are about 2/3 of the size of stocked GE5670, well the sound of ericsson is much much more refined but I think GE has a little better drive_

 

JW WE396A is the best and most body with slight warm. The other WE 396A is marginally inferior. Bendix 2C51 is the alternative with is slightly brighter.


----------



## Marc303

I got a havana about a month ago , I played it via the spdif from my Primare CD21 and didn't hear any difference at all... Definately no burn in as a month on it still sounds exactly the same.


----------



## Towert7

What equipment do you use it with?


----------



## MikoLayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hahaha $350 is a business. I'm not spending more than $10 to mod mine. Were talking cheap and effective here. I dont have pics because my cousin is out of town. I'll definitely take those pics when he arrives to mod mine._

 

Hey, didn't you pick up a Valab too? It would be nice if you could do some comparison between that and the Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Meanwhile, I will be burning in my Valab and wait for the parts to get my HD650 compared so I can compare it to my Monica USB.


----------



## donunus

My Havana is gone. Now I have a Valab and an emu0404 coming. But Comparison from memory when using the stock tube on the Havana vs the Valab... I prefer the Valab in tonality because it is less soft sounding but the Havana is more grainless. With the ericsson 2c51, the Havana Rocks!


----------



## _Vetal_

Hi all!
 I'm a new owner of Havana DAC)
 Now I want to try replace the tube. How I can do it correctly? I just try to pull up, but the tube sit strongly.


----------



## AdamWysokinski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *_Vetal_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all!
 I'm a new owner of Havana DAC)
 Now I want to try replace the tube. How I can do it correctly? I just try to pull up, but the tube sit strongly._

 

Hi,
 Just pull it up. Try not to squeeze the tube too strong. Sometimes moving it sideways *a little* helps.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Havana is gone. Now I have a Valab and an emu0404 coming. But Comparison from memory when using the stock tube on the Havana vs the Valab... I prefer the Valab in tonality because it is less soft sounding but the Havana is more grainless. With the ericsson 2c51, the Havana Rocks!_

 

Who is the lucky member who owns your Havana now..?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *_Vetal_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all!
 I'm a new owner of Havana DAC)
 Now I want to try replace the tube. How I can do it correctly? I just try to pull up, but the tube sit strongly._

 

Gently move the tube left and right and pull it out while holding on to the base with the other hand....

 May I know what tube are you replacing now? I am considering a JW WE396A pending the disposal of the great Bendix 2C51.


----------



## donunus

M3NTAL is the new owner


----------



## _Vetal_

*AdamWysokinski*
*OutdoorXplorer*
 Thank's, I did it!)
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* 
_May I know what tube are you replacing now? I am considering a JW WE396A pending the disposal of the great Bendix 2C51._

 

I bought Havana slightly used, and it came to me with installed WE396A. Now I know the sign of WE396A and want to compare it with Bendix 6385.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_M3NTAL is the new owner_

 

M3NTAL have not report in... Congrats in advance for securing a awesome DAC.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *_Vetal_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*AdamWysokinski*
*OutdoorXplorer*
 Thank's, I did it!)

 I bought Havana slightly used, and it came to me with installed WE396A. Now I know the sign of WE396A and want to compare it with Bendix 6385._

 

I read that WE396A and JW WE396A have different sound signature. I have sold the WE396A earlier... Can't wait to get my hands on the JW series..


----------



## Marc303

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What equipment do you use it with?_

 

Primare I30 amp , Dali Helicon 400 speakers , QED Revelation/Silver Spiral cables , all in an acoustically treated room (10x Gik panels) 

 Definately no change in sound over time.


----------



## AdamWysokinski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marc303* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Primare I30 amp , Dali Helicon 400 speakers , QED Revelation/Silver Spiral cables , all in an acoustically treated room (10x Gik panels) 

 Definately no change in sound over time._

 

Well, considering the price of Primare CD, not hearing any differences is quite a good result for Havana


----------



## DarKu

Marc can you tell us which tube is used now in your Havana? cos stock one is not so great, you will need to change it with a JW WE396A for a maxxed Havana


----------



## Marc303

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marc can you tell us which tube is used now in your Havana? cos stock one is not so great, you will need to change it with a JW WE396A for a maxxed Havana_

 

yeah it's the stock one , but since I can't hear a difference between two totally different types of digital sources then I have my doubts that I'll hear much difference with a change of valve. 

 How much are these valves by the way?


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marc303* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah it's the stock one , but since I can't hear a difference between two totally different types of digital sources then I have my doubts that I'll hear much difference with a change of valve. 

 How much are these valves by the way?_

 

Even through my HD650 a year ago I heard the change between the GE 5670 and the WE396A.

 Doing an A-B-A was no good. Hearing the difference was easy when I listed to one for a week, and then switched out. If you have even more revealing equipment the differences should be noticeable (which I'm assuming your speaker setup is).

 Your typical NOS WE396A will go for about 20$. A NOS JW WE396A can run from 20-30$.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read that WE396A and JW WE396A have different sound signature._

 

Just want to re affirm ... yes ... the standard WE396A and the "JW" branded WE396A are *totally* different!

 I wouldn't be so madly vocal about this if it hadn't been for Orcin and his own personal testimony regarding the JW branded 396A variants.

 He went on and on about how it was just as good as the Bendix 6385 in the Havana/Paradisea's (which I almost sold my kidney to get and which I quite liked) ... but with a bit more sexiness and "curves" to the sound.

 And I have to back him up.

 The "JW" branded WE396A is FAR and away better than the standard WE396A. Much more detailed and quiet and resolving. The standard WE396A sounds like a woolen dolt compared to the "JW" branded variety. It's really that dramatic of a difference. Try it and see.

 That said ...

 I continue my listening session.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just want to re affirm ... yes ... the standard WE396A and the "JW" branded WE396A are *totally* different!

 I wouldn't be so madly vocal about this if it hadn't been for Orcin and his own personal testimony regarding the JW branded 396A variants.

 He went on and on about how it was just as good as the Bendix 6385 in the Havana/Paradisea's (which I almost sold my kidney to get and which I quite liked) ... but with a bit more sexiness and "curves" to the sound.

 And I have to back him up.

 The "JW" branded WE396A is FAR and away better than the standard WE396A. Much more detailed and quiet and resolving. The standard WE396A sounds like a woolen dolt compared to the "JW" branded variety. It's really that dramatic of a difference. Try it and see.

 That said ...

 I continue my listening session.




_

 

I didn't think there was much difference between the JW and the normal WE396A. How strange.


----------



## _Vetal_

I don't know what WE396A I have, "JW" or not, but if compare it with Bendix 6385, my WE396A with more expensive(fat) sound than Bendix, with magic voices and have more bass. Bendix seems little brighter. When record with more sibilants then need, it's hear very nice. Bendix have less bass but more detailed. Actually in all frequency Bendix seems more detail especially in the HF, and the sound of drum cymbals is very very real and fascinating.


----------



## kostas

Yesterday I made a direct comparison between Havana and my Rega Apollo cd player.
 The differences were easily distinguishable in all frequencies, as well as tonality was different.
 In mid to high frequencies Havana was clearly better, more organic and natural sounding. Total another level of reproducing music. Voices were fuller, and without that slight metal echo that apollo has to my ears. 
 In low frequencies Havana had more mass in the bass but was little softer comparing to Apollo, there was a little woolen blanket in the bass. Big and warm bass, although a little soft. 
 Overall Havana is better and I'm thinking of selling my Cd player or just keeping it as transport which is a bit fun.
 I also like to try another tube with a bit more tight bass. Currently I'm using Ericsson goldpin. Or try a cryo. Is cryo treatment having effect to the bass also? any suggestions? 
 cheers!


----------



## DarKu

i went directly and ordered the best possible tube for the Havana which is an Cryoed JW WE396A, paid around 110$ (including shipping) for one tube, and differences compared with the stock tube is night and day! however i never tryed other tubes, and i don't intend to do so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i just love it how it is now


----------



## Riffle

Anybody read this article?
mhdt havana

 I'm intrigued with the part about the AD 1856 chips and others being a direct replacement for the PCM56P. Has anyone tried swapping out the chips?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody read this article?
mhdt havana

 I'm intrigued with the part about the AD 1856 chips and others being a direct replacement for the PCM56P. Has anyone tried swapping out the chips?_

 

Great review. No. I haven't read that as of yet.

 I'm quite stoked to learn that I can replace the Burr Brown Monolithic PCM56P chips with other variants like the AD1856 chips. I was always curious why the DAC chip's were socketed. Now I know.

 Color me learned.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody read this article?
mhdt havana

 I'm intrigued with the part about the AD 1856 chips and others being a direct replacement for the PCM56P. Has anyone tried swapping out the chips?_

 

Do let us know the impression if you ever experience the replacement.


----------



## Marc303

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even through my HD650 a year ago I heard the change between the GE 5670 and the WE396A.

 Doing an A-B-A was no good. Hearing the difference was easy when I listed to one for a week, and then switched out. If you have even more revealing equipment the differences should be noticeable (which I'm assuming your speaker setup is)._

 

why was doing an A/B comparison no good? 
 Surely if there is any difference then it will show up under a direct A/B comparison and not on one based on some distant memory of last week/month


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marc303* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why was doing an A/B comparison no good? _

 

You're asking the wrong person. Ask a bio-psychologist, they might have a chance of knowing that answer. And when you find out, let me know too because I have no idea. ^_^

 I simply stated what happened.


----------



## Marc303

err yeah cheers.. 

 I think I'll file this under placebo, sorry.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marc303* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_err yeah cheers.. 

 I think I'll file this under placebo, sorry._

 

Don't be sorry. You're entitled to think what you want.


----------



## btbluesky

regardless....the "organic", "round", "fluid"...wutever u wanna call it kinda quality DO exist in Hanava and is very noticeable. once u heard it, u know wut we're talkin about. some ppl like it, others might not.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_regardless....the "organic", "round", "fluid"...wutever u wanna call it kinda quality DO exist in Hanava and is very noticeable. once u heard it, u know wut we're talkin about. some ppl like it, others might not._

 

It's made online pr0n sound _way_ more realistic to my ear.


----------



## DoYouRight

makes me curious to have one alongside my buffalo.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's made online pr0n sound way more realistic to my ear.





_

 

Not that I speak from personal experience or anything, but the better the audio equipment I sometimes find the harder it is to listen to that stuff.
 Again, not that I would know or anything......
 ^_^


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not that I speak from personal experience or anything, but the better the audio equipment I sometimes find the harder it is to listen to that stuff.
 Again, not that I would know or anything......
 ^_^_

 

LOL.


----------



## scootermafia

Yep, Simpsons sound tooo realistic...also video gaming with HD800 is a bit creepy.


----------



## Omega17TheTrue

Did someone use the havanna with a minimillet max ? Do it have good synergy ? I bet it does. I'm planning to use this setup as an upgrade from my compass.


----------



## scootermafia

I did do that a few times. Very smooth/rich sound, made me forget I owned an M3...
 Er...actually a starving student, but you get the idea.


----------



## kostas

Has anyone tried any usb to spdif link between havana and pc for better (!) signal transfer? 

 Check out this
CryoParts Pop Pulse USB to SPDIF Converter

 at this price level sounds like appealing comparing to much more expensive bel canto link.

 K.


----------



## btbluesky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried any usb to spdif link between havana and pc for better (!) signal transfer? 

 Check out this
CryoParts Pop Pulse USB to SPDIF Converter

 at this price level sounds like appealing comparing to much more expensive bel canto link.

 K._

 

(o.0)! That thing is doing 70% of the work for a DAC, taking a stream, reclock it, convert it. USB signal is quite different than a spdif. 
 If you're doing that....a Trend audio USB 10.2 is same price, good review.

 All the manufacturers are jumping into USB now, there will be some really nice USB DAC within couple years that cost like a car, spec like a space shuttle, but for me Havana is real satisfying for a long time.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(o.0)! That thing is doing 70% of the work for a DAC, taking a stream, reclock it, convert it. USB signal is quite different than a spdif. 
 If you're doing that....a Trend audio USB 10.2 is same price, good review.

 All the manufacturers are jumping into USB now, there will be some really nice USB DAC within couple years that cost like a car, spec like a space shuttle, but for me Havana is real satisfying for a long time._

 

Great thought's btbluesky. 

 But I haven't used my Havana via USB at all. 

 Cept' to maybe demo it against it's Coaxial/SPDIF options. And across the board ... I found the USB to be a bit sub par compared to Coaxial/SPDIF ... just a bit bland and dull sounding compared to the other input options. 

 My primary listening mode is Coaxial from my PC ... flac's etc. ... but I also like the occasional SPDIF/Optical option when choosing to listen to CD's with my Sony CD deck.

 But USB? I think it sounds pretty bad compared to the other options.

 But that's just me.


----------



## kostas

thanks guys, I got your point!, 
 but what is the best way to listen from a computer? 
 well I listen 8-10 hours a day from my pc, Havana is outstanding comparing to my ex dac (kingrex), though listening through usb but I want to get the best out of havana, is a sound card with spdif output a good solution?


----------



## koven

quick question for uguys

 is there anyway to get another output on the havana?

 i really want this beautiful dac, but the thing stopping me is that i need 2 outputs

 one for my wa6, one for my speakers


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_quick question for uguys

 is there anyway to get another output on the havana?

 i really want this beautiful dac, but the thing stopping me is that i need 2 outputs

 one for my wa6, one for my speakers_

 

Loop out or RCA splitter.
 My Havana sources my GS-1, HEV70, and Denon Receiver.


----------



## scootermafia

I think the stock usb is probably fine, the pop pulse is going to have similar hardware in it. If you wanted to actually improve sound, the Sonicweld Diverter is great, but it costs more than a Havana.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_quick question for uguys

 is there anyway to get another output on the havana?

 i really want this beautiful dac, but the thing stopping me is that i need 2 outputs

 one for my wa6, one for my speakers_

 

What Towert7 said ... 

 Split the signal after the Havana ... your gonna have to split it any way, right?

 So why split it at the DAC level? Split it after the DAC. Better in my estimate.

 Speaking of such ...

 My roomies got a Woo 6 SE ... and it's fewkn awesome. 

 But if you run two headphones out of it ... it's quite crippled sounding compared to running a single phone ... 

 So again ... 

 Split the signal after the DAC ... 

 Or even better, don't split the signal at all.

 Rock on.


----------



## Mr.Mantas

I would recommend Musiland monitor, which does terific job of improving usb SQ and the price is realy decent. 

 Check this out:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/mu...-spdif-423960/


----------



## boozcool

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boozcool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Havana is a spectacular DAC, and I have been absolutely floored by how amazing it sounds, so this is no doubt a keeper, just as soon as the noise issue is addressed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Update:
 Turns out it was the IC chips. I just switched out the two BB PCM56P chips for a pair of AD1856NKs, and the now it is dead silent


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boozcool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Update:
 Turns out it was the IC chips. I just switched out the two BB PCM56P chips for a pair of AD1856NKs, and the now it is dead silent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Sweet.

 And congrads!


----------



## Mr.Mantas

WOW WOW, wait a minute!
 Some review about sound change with new dac chips?
 Thank you


----------



## Aranet

Hi!
 I recived Havana 4 days ago.This morning i opened it and see that my pcm56k chips is Korean not Japan.Now waiting an answer from MHDTLabs.
 Foto from MHDT site: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...vana/hav06.jpg
 My chips is not the same as foto.My chips-"PCM56P KOREA",at foto-"PCM56PK JAPAN".


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aranet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi!
 I recived Havana 4 days ago.This morning i opened it and see that my pcm56k chips is Korean not Japan.Now waiting an answer from MHDTLabs.
 Foto from MHDT site: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...vana/hav06.jpg
 My chips is not the same as foto.My chips-"PCM56P KOREA",at foto-"PCM56PK JAPAN".
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You did not say the most important part:
 Who made your chips? was it BB?

 If it was a Korea BB, then you have nothing to complain about.


----------



## Aranet

BB,korea BB.
 But a paid my money for device with japan BB.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

i don't think u need to worry about it. we are talking about a chip. not some hand built wallet. also, koreans are very good with semiconductor chips.


----------



## Aranet

It`s cheating..korean is not japan)..at site and rewiews JAPAN pcm,i don`t want to be a pioneer fo my 1K $.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

hey, i just looked at mine, and its also korean. i bought it a year ago. so i think many ppl got korean BB chip.


----------



## Aranet

wow....magic


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

This made me checking my unit which was received mid August 2009... It is BB Korea too.


----------



## Aranet

I have no words,becouse i don`t know english)))


----------



## Budley007

Being an ex-Navy man, I've had the rare opportunity to date both a Korean and a Japanese woman. I liked the Korean woman better.

 ....just sayin.


----------



## DarKu

there are NONE audible difference between the *same* DAC chip's made in different countries
 an chinese BB PCM56 will sound the as an Japanese/German/American BB PCM56 (those micro chips are made by machines, not by human hands, and they use the same materials for it)
 Relax dudes, just enjoy the sound of it, that's all
 BTW i have an korean BB chip too, so what ?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aranet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BB,korea BB.
 But a paid my money for device with japan BB._

 

As others have said. Relax ... it's simply a BB manufacturing facility in Korea and not Japan. The process and materials are the same.

 It would be like me being upset that my car was manufactured in Texas instead of New York.


----------



## Aranet

I like "Japan" it`s kind of fetish)))and it`s my right for my money)))
 In Russia we have a "Toyota Camry v40 made in Japan" and same "Toyota Camry v40 made in Russia"....same detals,same quality..different only prices,delta-~5k$...I HAVE A JAPAN))))
 i will ask MHDT to sell me a Japan chip
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i think it`s very hard to undestand me,becouse i have a very bad english)
 Matt Bianco-Matt`s mood relax me,Havana is a good DAC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Peace)


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aranet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like "Japan" it`s kind of fetish)))and it`s my right for my money)))
 In Russia we have a "Toyota Camry v40 made in Japan" and same "Toyota Camry v40 made in Russia"....same detals,same quality..different only prices,delta-~5k$...I HAVE A JAPAN))))
 i will ask MHDT to sell me a Japan chip
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 i think it`s very hard to undestand me,becouse i have a very bad english)
 Matt Bianco-Matt`s mood relax me,Havana is a good DAC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Peace)_

 

Not hard to understand at all.

 I have my own idiosyncrasies/eccentricities ... so hope you get the chip you want.

 Hell. Like I should talk. I've got my own fair share of quirks 

 Any time I get a new bit of gear, be it computer or audio related, I have to clean my *entire* house before I unbox and set it up. I'll be driven crazy if I don't do this. Maybe it's a bit of OCD, dunno but I enjoy it.

 So rock on and good luck (my Havana is on loan to a fellow head-fier at the moment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and so I can't open it to check my chip) ...

 @ Shellylh -> 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .joel


----------



## shellylh

Joel: No worries, I see a BB Japan.

 By the way, the board looks so sweet on the Havana.... very jealous. 

 You may want to get out the vacuum though... it is a bit dusty in there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not hard to understand at all.

 I have my own idiosyncrasies/eccentricities ... so hope you get the chip you want.

 Hell. Like I should talk. I've got my own fair share of quirks 

 Any time I get a new bit of gear, be it computer or audio related, I have to clean my *entire* house before I unbox and set it up. I'll be driven crazy if I don't do this. Maybe it's a bit of OCD, dunno but I enjoy it.

 So rock on and good luck (my Havana is on loan to a fellow head-fier at the moment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and so I can't open it to check my chip) ...

 @ Shellylh -> 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .joel_


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Joel: No worries, I see a BB Japan.

 By the way, the board looks so sweet on the Havana.... very jealous. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

wOW!

 So I got the mystical "Ninja Japan" model of the BB chip, eh?

 I feel so POWERFUL!!!

 (just don't use it via Coax with your CDP and we'll all still be friends)


----------



## shellylh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wOW!

 So I got the mystical "Ninja Japan" model of the BB chip, eh?

 I feel so POWERFUL!!!

 (just don't use it via Coax with your CDP and we'll all still be friends)




_

 

Deal


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You may want to get out the vacuum though... it is a bit dusty in there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Now dammit woman ... 

 I have compressed air blown out that DAC's internals on a weekly basis.

 I've even used my roomies vacuum to suck out the air/dust from the internals ...

 So damnit! 

 You can bet I'm pissed that your implying that my Havana DAC has dusyt/dirty insides!

 LMAO. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Your the one that can't even run COAX out from your CDP ... so who the hell has dirt/viruses, eh? Lord knows I don't want anything, EVER, to do with that CDp!

 LOL!!!

 Sorry ... I couldn't help but run with it.

 ...

 Truth be told ... I really enjoy the DA100 ... it's just ever so slightly more detailed than the Havana ... but I still miss the wholly organic, warm, and natural image that the Havana provides.

 Can't wait till this coming Thursday ...

 (blush)

 ...

 Rock on, Shelly. Stay gold ...


----------



## shellylh

Thought that might get your attention.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thought that might get your attention. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Crassus

I ordered a Havana yesterday and I'm thinking about swapping the tube to something better. Is there a consensus about which tube to get? Obviously it's somewhat a matter of opinion and there are good and bad tubes but narrowing down the choices to (JW) WE396A, Bendix 6385 or ericsson 2c51, which one is the one to get? What about the 5670=2C51 Tungsol?

 Any ideas where to get the Ericsson (with a reasonable price)? I've heard plenty of good things about that tube (reading this thread and browsing other forums).

 Btw. Has anyone experimented with different dac chips? I wonder how a newer AD chip would compare to the stock BB.


----------



## Mr.Mantas

boozcool switched out the two BB PCM56P chips for a pair of AD1856NKs,
 but he didn't report back about SQ after that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 All he said is that Havana became dead silent.


----------



## DarKu

*shellylh* how do you find the Havana in general?
 And how it is paired with your WA5 LE ? I will soon get an WA6 SE with some upgrades (and best tubes for it) want to have an idea what to expect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Crasus* go directly for the best one, the JW WE396A (if you want to spent on the best one - buy an Cryoed one, even better!)

*Aranet* don't forget to swap the stock tube with a better one, the changes are dramatical, well at least for me it was a really big change (in a good way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Aranet

* DarKu * yesterday i recived a bendix 2c51 from * outdooorxplorer *,and i waiting 5 different tubes from e-bay next week.will try to compaire it.


----------



## robeeert1

^


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) Bendix 6385 from 1964 - the most natural ever heard, detailed, very wide soundstage - the best
 2) Bendix 6385 from fifties - to me dry and lifeless, It has very strange 
 characteristic, but some people like it much.
 3) JW 396a early fifties- very very nice sounding tube, my second favourite;
 4) Ericsson 396a - dark but first class tube
 5) tesla 6cc42 - warm, first class

 I can supply any of these listed above._

 

Very accurate observations.

 Almost *exactly* as I'd describe them.

 Although I find the JW 396A to be ever so slightly more enjoyable over the 50's Bendix 6385.

 But it's *REALLY REALLY* close.

 Jus sayin ...

 (thanks for the write up!)


----------



## shellylh

I am really enjoying my time with the Havana. It sounds very natural but still detailed. It sounds great with both my WA5-LE and GS-1. I don't think you will disappointed with a Havana + WA6 SE setup. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*shellylh* how do you find the Havana in general?
 And how it is paired with your WA5 LE ? I will soon get an WA6 SE with some upgrades (and best tubes for it) want to have an idea what to expect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Crasus* go directly for the best one, the JW WE396A (if you want to spent on the best one - buy an Cryoed one, even better!)

*Aranet* don't forget to swap the stock tube with a better one, the changes are dramatical, well at least for me it was a really big change (in a good way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)._


----------



## pzm9pzm9

my impressions were,

 Bendix 6385 - Widest soundstage, bit thin sounding compared to Bendix 2c51 or JW 396a
 Bendix 2c51 - second widest soundstage, slightly fuller bodied middle than 6385
 JW 396a (50') - still very wide soundstage, the sweetest middle, smooth, analogue sounding
 Ericsson 2c51 (gold pin) - leaner sounding, balanced, fast, clear

 They all have their own purposes to suite my moods and music style.


----------



## boozcool

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Mantas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_boozcool switched out the two BB PCM56P chips for a pair of AD1856NKs,
 but he didn't report back about SQ after that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 All he said is that Havana became dead silent._

 

Hey guys, sorry bout the MIA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I gotta say, switching out the chips is not as easy as it sounds. The slots on the DAC are very strong/durable, but hold the chips in a bit too well as the pins on the chips have a tendency to bend when removing them. 
 I bought the AD1856NKs from a supplier on HKin.com for roughly $35 shipped. Perhaps it was the fact that the AD1856NKs were not new when I bought them, or maybe the pins are normally so weak/fragile compared to the PCM56P, but one of the pins on an AD1856NK ended up chipping on me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The chips themselves were only $3 a piece, but shipping was $25 via DHL. FWIW, I would definitely recommended buying a couple of extra ones just incase 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In terms of differences in SQ, due to the limited usage, its a difficult to point out specific strong and weak points. Overall though, I found the AD1856NKs to sound a bit more dynamic and lively, whereas the PCM56P chips were a bit more laid back and smooth. I can't honestly say that I preferred one over the other, as they both sounded equally impressive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On a side note, the replacement MHDT sent me for the faulty chip was a PCM56P Korea, and compared to the PCM56PK Japan which originally came with the DAC, I could notice no discernible differences


----------



## Mr.Mantas

Thank you boozcool for useful and practical information


----------



## kostas

about the tubes. 
 I've changed from stock tube to ericsson 2c51 gold pin and the differences were huge in terms of soundstaging (more layers) detail - tremble accuracy. Now I'm using JW 396a which is even better in everything, more balanced, fuller bass. The impressive is that it has even more detail in mid - high region which was a good surprise. I'm staying with western electric. best choice so far.


----------



## Crassus

Sorry about the slight offtopic, but all I've been able to find are the WE369A tubes (made in USA with yellow print). I quess this isn't the JW/d-getter tube or is it (it says in the mhdt pages that WE 396A/2C51 O-getter is a second class tube so I don't want to mix these up). How do you distinguish between these two?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crassus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry about the slight offtopic, but all I've been able to find are the WE369A tubes (made in USA with yellow print). I quess this isn't the JW/d-getter tube or is it (it says in the mhdt pages that WE 396A/2C51 O-getter is a second class tube so I don't want to mix these up). How do you distinguish between these two?_

 

The JW branded variant will have the same yellow text but with a "JW" too ...


----------



## pzm9pzm9

JW tubes are marked as JW. aren't they? mine does have yellow JW mark.


----------



## regal

I like the concept of this DAC but even after 40 pages it seems no one knows anything about it. 

 1. What is the tube stage? Is it SRPP like most chinese tube DAC's ? 
 2. What is used for I/V ? I'm guessing a resistor, it blows my mind that people are changing the DAC chip without even considering the I/V impedance. There is probably a huge room for improvement by upgrading the I/V resistors.
 3. What is the digital reciever? 
 4. HV power supply is ?


 Also every NOS filterless DAC I have run across has an issue that needs discussed. Its difficult to explain ,so here I will try. If you send a test tone over say 16khz a filterless DAC will have aliasing which will for example deflect a 17khz tone into a 14khz. This is why I quit using NOS DAC's, however they do have a lot of good qualities so I would be interested to see some measurements of this DAC.

 I am a huge fan of tube DACs (especially with an R2R chip.) I built a Pass D1 and converted it to a tube output, so I am enthused to see this Havana but we need to know whats inside.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. What is the tube stage? Is it SRPP like most chinese tube DAC's ? 
 2. What is used for I/V ? I'm guessing a resistor, it blows my mind that people are changing the DAC chip without even considering the I/V impedance. There is probably a huge room for improvement by upgrading the I/V resistors.
 3. What is the digital reciever? 
 4. HV power supply is ?


 Also every NOS filterless DAC I have run across has an issue that needs discussed. Its difficult to explain ,so here I will try. If you send a test tone over say 16khz a filterless DAC will have aliasing which will for example deflect a 17khz tone into a 14khz. This is why I quit using NOS DAC's, however they do have a lot of good qualities so I would be interested to see some measurements of this DAC.

 I am a huge fan of tube DACs (especially with an R2R chip.) I built a Pass D1 and converted it to a tube output, so I am enthused to see this Havana but we need to know whats inside._

 

You should email MHDT Labs ... even though their English is a little difficult at times, they are very receptive to technical inquiry. Their email is mhdtgang@yahoo.com

 Personally, I wouldn't know the first thing about your questions ... I'm no DIY sort ... 

 I just love the way it sounds in my system.






 Good luck, though.

 .joel


----------



## Crassus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the concept of this DAC but even after 40 pages it seems no one knows anything about it. 

 1. What is the tube stage? Is it SRPP like most chinese tube DAC's ?
 2. What is used for I/V ? I'm guessing a resistor, it blows my mind that people are changing the DAC chip without even considering the I/V impedance. There is probably a huge room for improvement by upgrading the I/V resistors._

 

1) I don't know about the tube stage but 2) I thought they chose the PCM56P because it has both current and voltage output? MHDT have mentioned that one chip from Analog Devices is also compatible so people aren't exactly using random chips.
  Quote:


 3. What is the digital reciever? 
 4. HV power supply is ? 
 

3) The receiver is CS8414. Don't know the answer to the fourth question.


----------



## donunus

By the way guys and gals, My cousin is selling his modded Havana with extra tubes including the badass ericsson 2c51 for a decent price and is sending it to me soon to post for sale on headfi. I will do some listening to see how much better the mods made the havana first and report here


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way guys and gals, My cousin is selling his modded Havana with extra tubes including the badass ericsson 2c51 for a decent price and is sending it to me soon to post for sale on headfi. I will do some listening to see how much better the mods made the havana first and report here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Please post pix with impression ya.


----------



## Flea Bag

Hi Guys,

 I've been away for quite a long time and have recently came back looking for a nice 'musical' DAC. Long story short; I've done my research for months now and have decided on the Havana.

 However, I lack open shelf space for the thing and it will almost certainly have to be placed in my crowded audio rack where ventilation 'may' be an issue. As such, and to play on the safe-side, I thought it'd be good to have the tube raised as high above the Havana's 'hole' as possible. Could you guys advise me on which socket/extender I should buy from this place or any other recommended place?

 As long as I have the right number of pins, any version of the extenders should fit right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm completely new to tubes though I do know I'll eventually buy some 'Cryoed' Western Electric tubes too! Any advise on that would be greatly appreciated too! Thanks in advance!


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Flea Bag* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Guys,

 I've been away for quite a long time and have recently came back looking for a nice 'musical' DAC. Long story short; I've done my research for months now and have decided on the Havana.

 However, I lack open shelf space for the thing and it will almost certainly have to be placed in my crowded audio rack where ventilation 'may' be an issue. As such, and to play on the safe-side, I thought it'd be good to have the tube raised as high above the Havana's 'hole' as possible. Could you guys advise me on which socket/extender I should buy from this place or any other recommended place?

 As long as I have the right number of pins, any version of the extenders should fit right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm completely new to tubes though I do know I'll eventually buy some 'Cryoed' Western Electric tubes too! Any advise on that would be greatly appreciated too! Thanks in advance!_

 

Some tubes run really hot, but the guys at MHDT labs have the tube running below full voltage, so the tube does not get very hot (it gets warm to the touch at most).

 In this case, I don't think a tube extender is going to do anything.
 Others can chime in.


----------



## DarKu

after 3 hours of runnig the Havana, the tube itself in just barely warm, i think i will not be an issue.
 Flea_Bag you will love it !


----------



## donunus

Flea_bag,
 If you can wait a little while... maybe a week or two. I will receive the modded havana with some WE, stock tubes, and LM ericssons. I think my cousin will be selling it for $750 shipped even coming with the expensive tubes and mods!!! A badass value if you ask me


----------



## Flea Bag

Thanks for the interesting pointers guys!

 With regards to heat, I'm not actually worried about the tubes themselves (well, a little but it's clearly just paranoia. I like to baby my equipment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)! Actually, I'm more concerned about the heat that the tubes radiate to the rest of the circuit components. It may sound counter-intuitive but the fact that the tubes get only slightly warm could mean three things:
 a) That they produce very little heat in the first place or
 b) That they produce moderate amounts of heat but can radiate that heat away very well (into the rest of the circuits, therefore keeping the tube only slightly warm or
 c) Halfway between a & b.

 Before I end up sounding more and more nutty; Let me just remind you: I'm paranoid so I already have an excuse! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Whether it's a, b or c, I'd rather be 'extremely safe' and find a tube extension socket!

 Now here's the hard part: I think the extension sockets are likely to introduce unwanted microphonics and extra resistance. So... All said and done; the good and the bad cancel out and I'll just leave the Havana in stock form! After reading all that crap, I hope you're not feeling like this: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *Why didn't that bum just work that out on his own instead of wasting my and our brain space?*

 However, I came across this earlier in the thread. What do you think?


----------



## Flea Bag

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Flea_bag,
 If you can wait a little while... maybe a week or two. I will receive the modded havana with some WE, stock tubes, and LM ericssons. I think my cousin will be selling it for $750 shipped even coming with the expensive tubes and mods!!! A badass value if you ask me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Badass indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately, I gave the guy at MHDT my word that I'll buy it from him. I'm just waiting for the invoice to make payment actually. If your cousin is willing to split the tubes, I'd gladly buy them! PM me with a price if he's willing!


----------



## _Vetal_

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Flea Bag* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Badass indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately, I gave the guy at MHDT my word that I'll buy it from him. I'm just waiting for the invoice to make payment actually. If your cousin is willing to split the tubes, I'd gladly buy them! PM me with a price if he's willing!_

 

Guys from Mhdt send invoice on your paypal account, just login and check there)


----------



## donunus

ok i'll send you a PM if I get final prices and if he will sell the tubes separately. I'll send him an sms text message now


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Flea Bag* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_a) That they produce very little heat in the first place._

 

This is what I tried to get across.

 I would be more worried about your other components heating up the havana.


----------



## Flea Bag

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is what I tried to get across.

 I would be more worried about your other components heating up the havana._

 

I know that's what you and DarKu were trying to get at! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just wanted to point out that touch alone isn't always a good indicator of the energy that a surface puts out. If the tube were painted opaque black and still be only slightly warm after a few hours then indeed cooling won't be an issue throught the rest of the Havana's circuits. Guess you're right though. Don't think the Havana consumes that many watts on the whole.

 As for my crowded shelf, there are quite a number of components I employ!

 1. Logitech Squeezebox Classic
 2. Behringer DEQ2496
 3. Musical Fidelity X-10v3 Tube Buffer
 4. Accuphase E-206 Integrated Amp.
 5. Meier Audio Corda Prehead MkII Amp.

 In the next few days, these two fellows will be squeezing into my shelves so I'm trying my best to watch the cooling:

 6. Apogee Big Ben Master Clock
 7. MHDT Havana!!!

 Speaking of which, I probably need to update my equipment profile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just sent the Paypal payment! Oh yeah!


----------



## pzm9pzm9

anyone has fed Havana into Stax system? how do you like it?


----------



## donunus

My stax 2050 liked my pioneer cd player more than the havana. The Havana is a little soft sounding like the stax IMO


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My stax 2050 liked my pioneer cd player more than the havana. The Havana is a little soft sounding like the stax IMO_

 

ouch! not so good to hear. how soft are we talking about here? is it noticeably soft? when we say soft, you mean less detailed and excessive smoothing sound or perhaps tuby??


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ouch! not so good to hear. how soft are we talking about here? is it noticeably soft? when we say soft, you mean less detailed and excessive smoothing sound or perhaps tuby??_

 

The havana is not 'soft' sounding if you pair it with 'unsoft' headphones. Trust me on that.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The havana is not 'soft' sounding if you pair it with 'unsoft' headphones. Trust me on that._

 

Or roll some tubes. It's quite adaptable. And I concur ... not "soft" sounding at all ... pretty damn articulate actually once mated with the proper tube (Bendix 6385 or JW 396A) ...


----------



## pzm9pzm9

great to hear!

 I love this dac evertime I flick the switch on


----------



## Mr.Mantas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Flea_bag,
 If you can wait a little while... maybe a week or two. I will receive the modded havana with some WE, stock tubes, and LM ericssons. I think my cousin will be selling it for $750 shipped even coming with the expensive tubes and mods!!! A badass value if you ask me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hi Donunus,

 what about yours cousins Havana?

 Where your cousin lives?


----------



## david1978jp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone has fed Havana into Stax system? how do you like it?_

 

I am feeding an almost new Stax srs-005a in ear system. First I thought it sounded grain, and then, I realized it was soft. I found myself turned up volume to gain more details and impact. I usually listen to very very low volume, so it may be just me. I think I need to wait another 100 hours for my little 005a to finally have its kicks. My experience is possibly no help to you, yours are full size and mine is in-ear, do they have similar sound? Anyway, I'll let you know in a few days.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Mantas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Donunus,

 what about yours cousins Havana?

 Where your cousin lives?_

 

I'm still waiting for him to send the Havana to me. he might still be deciding on the price or whether he should sell them or not


----------



## Mr.Mantas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still waiting for him to send the Havana to me. he might still be deciding on the price or whether he should sell them or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Please let me know about his decision


----------



## donunus

Ok Mr Mantas. You are first in line in case they are finally up for sale.


----------



## Mr.Mantas

OK,

 Thanks.


----------



## regal

Anyone tried the Havana clone on ebay that you can build for a few hundred bucks?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone tried the Havana clone on ebay that you can build for a few hundred bucks?_

 

Where is the link to the clone??


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where is the link to the clone??_

 

DAC kit AD1865N-K NOS 1.0 NOS w/ transformer - eBay (item 220496718285 end time Oct-27-09 19:41:43 PDT)


 They sent me the schematics, well thought out. The tube buffer is bought separately.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DAC kit AD1865N-K NOS 1.0 NOS w/ transformer - eBay (item 220496718285 end time Oct-27-09 19:41:43 PDT)


 They sent me the schematics, well thought out. The tube buffer is bought separately._

 

That looks interesting but I am a lousy DIYer...


----------



## regal

I'm not a fan of NOS so I doubt I would build this. An exact match could be made if we knew the tube topology of the Havana.


----------



## Crassus

That doesn't really look like a clone at all? The dac chips are different, caps are different etc. Just because it's NOS doesn't make it a clone. I'm having a hard time finding similarities let alone say that it's a clone.


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crassus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That doesn't really look like a clone at all? The dac chips are different, caps are different etc. Just because it's NOS doesn't make it a clone. I'm having a hard time finding similarities let alone say that it's a clone._

 

X2


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2_

 

youre right its an Audio Not clone, I mistakenly thought the Havana was based on the Audio Not Dac 1.x


----------



## donunus

My cousins modded havana finally arrived and is now up for sale. Its pretty darn smooth sounding and beefier sounding than I remember my stock havana.

 Heres the FS link
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs...6/#post6143746


----------



## Landis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My cousins modded havana finally arrived and is now up for sale. Its pretty darn smooth sounding and beefier sounding than I remember my stock havana.

 Heres the FS link
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs...6/#post6143746_

 

And I was too slow!

 I've pretty well decided that the Havana will be the first purchased part of my new rig. 

 Question; is the tube removable without opening it up? It looks quite well sunk into the enclosure!


----------



## limpidglitch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Landis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I was too slow!

 I've pretty well decided that the Havana will be the first purchased part of my new rig. 

 Question; is the tube removable without opening it up? It looks quite well sunk into the enclosure!_

 

You need to remove the top by unscrewing four hex-screws.


----------



## kostas

in case no one noticed there is a new production tube for our beloved dac, 
 the JJ 6386.
 Wondering how that new tube performs though I am extremely satisfied with WE jw 2c51... just rocks!
 cheers,
 K.

 ps. when I ll have time to write, I will tell you about a super comparison we made between benchmark dac1, weiss minerva, an esoteric cd-player (5000 eur), dacmagic and the super Havana!!


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in case no one noticed there is a new production tube for our beloved dac, 
 the JJ 6386.
 Wondering how that new tube performs though I am extremely satisfied with WE jw 2c51... just rocks!
 cheers,
 K.

 ps. when I ll have time to write, I will tell you about a super comparison we made between benchmark dac1, weiss minerva, an esoteric cd-player (5000 eur), dacmagic and the super Havana!!_

 

Waiting for your impresions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, some time ago i compared my Havana to a benchmark DAC1, havana was clearly superior in all departments

 Holy Moly this new tube is HOT! Just look at it's specs!!:
http://www.jj-electronic.com/pdf/6386LGP.pdf
http://www.tubedepot.com/jj-6386.html
 I have a feeling that it is better than our beloved JW WE396A's


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My cousins modded havana finally arrived and is now up for sale. Its pretty darn smooth sounding and beefier sounding than I remember my stock havana.

 Heres the FS link
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs...6/#post6143746_

 

What were the feet on that DAC?


----------



## classfolkphile

Hi all,

 I recently purchased a stock (used) Havana DAC. I'm using an Ericsson gold pin 2C51 (also have tried a Bendix red label) and while I love it, I'm hearing a slight dryness and graininess to the vocals. This has me thinking about modding it, specifically changing some of the caps.

 Am I correct in thinking that the two 2.0uf (output coupling caps?) will have the largest effect on the sound?

 How about the one .22uf250v and the two .01/1000v caps?

 And is it okay to change the two 2.0uf/250v caps to 2.2uf/650v ones?

 TIA


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Just won a pair of 51s and 59s WE396A tubes off eBay and awaiting shipping. Hope this will do justice to my Havana.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Speederlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What were the feet on that DAC?_

 

I'm not really sure what spiked footing my cousin put on there but it was just connected with double sided tape to the stock footing


----------



## classfolkphile

Changed the stock fuse to a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse (from The Cable Company). I've done this on several other pieces of equipment and it always made for a small but immediately noticeable increase in resolution; well worth the small price.

 In the Havana, however, I don't so much notice a small increase in resolution as I find a huge increase in image and soundstage size (this is with speakers, obviously - I just got my headphones back from a friend and haven't tried them with the Havana yet). This holds with both the Gold and the new Silver Fuses. IMS (with a Gold KCI Pegasus Digital IC) the Silver Fuse was superior, giving a bit more clarity and sparkle.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Changed the stock fuse to a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse (from The Cable Company). I've done this on several other pieces of equipment and it always made for a small but immediately noticeable increase in resolution; well worth the small price.

 In the Havana, however, I don't so much notice a small increase in resolution as I find a huge increase in image and soundstage size (this is with speakers, obviously - I just got my headphones back from a friend and haven't tried them with the Havana yet). This holds with both the Gold and the new Silver Fuses. IMS (with a Gold KCI Pegasus Digital IC) the Silver Fuse was superior, giving a bit more clarity and sparkle._

 

I too have installed a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in my Havana ... and ... naysayers not withstanding ... I found it quite beneficial in the way of a more quiet and more "liquid"/"smooth" sound over what was typically heard with the stock fuse.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I wanna try those magical fuse too. Mind to share which specific size and amperage to order?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Changed the stock fuse to a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse (from The Cable Company). I've done this on several other pieces of equipment and it always made for a small but immediately noticeable increase in resolution; well worth the small price.

 In the Havana, however, I don't so much notice a small increase in resolution as I find a huge increase in image and soundstage size (this is with speakers, obviously - I just got my headphones back from a friend and haven't tried them with the Havana yet). This holds with both the Gold and the new Silver Fuses. IMS (with a Gold KCI Pegasus Digital IC) the Silver Fuse was superior, giving a bit more clarity and sparkle._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I too have installed a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in my Havana ... and ... naysayers not withstanding ... I found it quite beneficial in the way of a more quiet and more "liquid"/"smooth" sound over what was typically heard with the stock fuse.




_


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

So does this means NO GO? It will be great if someone can tell me what fuse specification should I be getting for WooAudio 6SE too.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this means NO GO? It will be great if someone can tell me what fuse specification should I be getting for WooAudio 6SE too._

 

I have to admit ... it makes me laugh.

 LOL ...


----------



## dura

I've got a havana on order, and intend to replace the tube; if I got the case open anyway, why not try the fuse too?
 So I would like otk now which type of fuse exactly I should order. (230V/50hz over here, if that matters).


----------



## classfolkphile

The stock fuse is a 400MA/250V - 5x20MM fuse. The Hi-Fi Tuning fuse comes in that denomination in the gold version. The silver one only comes in a 500MA (everything else is the same). I was assured by The Cable Company that either value could be used without a problem.

 Edit: the above is for the US version!

 The difference has always been immediately noticeable with any equipment: with the Havana (w spkrs., IMS), it's huge. That said, I also find the photo post above amusing.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The stock fuse is a 400MA/250V - 5x20MM fuse. The Hi-Fi Tuning fuse comes in that denomination in the gold version. The silver one only comes in a 500MA (everything else is the same). I was assured by The Cable Company that either value could be used without a problem.

 The difference has always been immediately noticeable with any equipment: with the Havana (w spkrs.), it's huge. That said, I also find the photo post above amusing._

 

I got your back, mang. LOL ... (while trying not to laugh too hard) ... 

 I noticed a definite improvement once moving to the Hi-if Tuning fuse.

 To the detractors?

 Don't knock it till you've tried it yo.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The stock fuse is a 400MA/250V - 5x20MM fuse. The Hi-Fi Tuning fuse comes in that denomination in the gold version. The silver one only comes in a 500MA (everything else is the same). I was assured by The Cable Company that either value could be used without a problem.

 The difference has always been immediately noticeable with any equipment: with the Havana (w spkrs.), it's huge. That said, I also find the photo post above amusing._

 

It says directional and which is the ultimate orientation should the fuse be placed in the Havana?

_"For best performance, the HiFi Tuning fuses should be installed one way, listened to, and then reversed the other way to determine the best sonic orientation"._

 Any visual to share?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

The magical fuse in now on order and awaiting to be shipped from VH Audio. Wanna try it myself the improvement which people has been talking all about. I shall hear it when it arrives.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Thanks you classfolkphile for sharing the best orientation for the HiFi Tuning fuse to be installed. I wonder is the SilClear Contact Enhancer application is gonna bring further improvement.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks you classfolkphile for sharing the best orientation for the HiFi Tuning fuse to be installed. I wonder is the SilClear Contact Enhancer application is gonna bring further improvement._

 

LOL!

 Don't get me started!

 I just spent an hour earlier today reapplying Walkers SST to all my IC's, power cords and tubes!


----------



## pzm9pzm9

I spent most of my afternoon spending time with newly acquired Woo GES & O2 hooking to Havana. Main reason for this practice was to find best tube of Havana to go with. With my dynamic setup, Wooaudio2, I liked JW396a from 50's for its sweet middle/smooth sounding, and Bendix 6385 for wide soundstage. 
 This account did not hold same for Stax setup. JW396a became little muddy and tuby. Treble was tamed. Zero harshness but tuby
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ericsson 2c51 Gold Pin sounded awesome. It is leanear sounding with least bass punchy but it has the magic sound! It is like... hearing Grado! if JW396a was HD650. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Brent Jessee calls it sonically superior, and I never thought I would believe it! The only downside is the slight lack of being full-bodied sounding. Then, there was Bendix 6385. Sweet, analogue, full body sounds from top to bottom frequency. I still haven't tried Bendix 2c51. I am dead tired and drunk that I can't possibly swap another Havana tubes. 
 I was bit surprised to find out my tube preferences have changed as I move from dynamic to Stax. 
 In the end, guess what I am listening now... HF2! After so many hours with O2, I miss this screaming highs!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent most of my afternoon spending time with newly acquired Woo GES & O2 hooking to Havana. Main reason for this practice was to find best tube of Havana to go with. With my dynamic setup, Wooaudio2, I liked JW396a from 50's for its sweet middle/smooth sounding, and Bendix 6385 for wide soundstage. 
 This account did not hold same for Stax setup. JW396a became little muddy and tuby. Treble was tamed. Zero harshness but tuby
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ericsson 2c51 Gold Pin sounded awesome. It is leanear sounding with least bass punchy but it has the magic sound! It is like... hearing Grado! if JW396a was HD650. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Brent Jessee calls it sonically superior, and I never thought I would believe it! The only downside is the slight lack of being full-bodied sounding. Then, there was Bendix 6385. Sweet, analogue, full body sounds from top to bottom frequency. I still haven't tried Bendix 2c51. I am dead tired and drunk that I can't possibly swap another Havana tubes. 
 I was bit surprised to find out my tube preferences have changed as I move from dynamic to Stax. 
 In the end, guess what I am listening now... HF2! After so many hours with O2, I miss this screaming highs!_

 

I find the 1950's JW 396A and the Bendix 6385 Red Bank tubes to be the near perfect combination of tubes for the Havana.

 I just ordered a new 6385 in fact as I had sold mine about six months ago.

 Great tube ...


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find the 1950's JW 396A and the Bendix 6385 Red Bank tubes to be the near perfect combination of tubes for the Havana.

 I just ordered a new 6385 in fact as I had sold mine about six months ago.

 Great tube ..._

 

I won a pair of 1951 and 1959 WE396A and wondering whether there will be much sonically difference with those JW series.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find the 1950's JW 396A and the Bendix 6385 Red Bank tubes to be the near perfect combination of tubes for the Havana.

 I just ordered a new 6385 in fact as I had sold mine about six months ago.

 Great tube ..._

 

Agreed! for dynamics JW and 6385 are the best sounding. After yesterday's extensive listening, I withdrew selling back-up Bendix 6385.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won a pair of 1951 and 1959 WE396A and wondering whether there will be much sonically difference with those JW series._

 

After looking at the prices of these in TubeWorld, I think they all share same sonical qualities. But earlier ones are almost always better bet.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After looking at the prices of these in TubeWorld, I think they all share same sonical qualities. But earlier ones are almost always better bet._

 

Thanks. Will hear it out once it arrives. Will be applying SilClear to those pins too.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed! for dynamics JW and 6385 are the best sounding. After yesterday's extensive listening, I withdrew selling back-up Bendix 6385._

 

Hi guys,
 I'm a bendix 6385 lover, I have three different sounding bendix 6385 tubes.
 One from 1957 rtma, the other from 1964 te-21 and white boxed probably from late 60's.
 Talking about the sound of them, write when they were manufactured, because there is big difference in sound reproduction depends on the manufacture date.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,
 I'm a bendix 6385 lover, I have three different sounding bendix 6385 tubes.
 One from 1957 rtma, the other from 1964 te-21 and white boxed probably from late 60's.
 Talking about the sound of them, write when they were manufactured, because there is big difference in sound reproduction depends on the manufacture date._

 

How would you know the date of production of Bendix 6385? I have searched web before but never succeed on getting any info about serial number of tube. Mine was bought from Japan auction in white box. So this is usually refer to late 60?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you know the date of production of Bendix 6385? I have searched web before but never succeed on getting any info about serial number of tube. Mine was bought from Japan auction in white box. So this is usually refer to late 60?_

 

Manufacture date is written on the box. Tubes look the same. Yours is from late 60's white boxed.
 Very specific characteristic sounding tube.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,
 I'm a bendix 6385 lover, I have three different sounding bendix 6385 tubes.
 One from 1957 rtma, the other from 1964 te-21 and white boxed probably from late 60's.
 Talking about the sound of them, write when they were manufactured, because there is big difference in sound reproduction depends on the manufacture date._

 

How do the different era Bendix 6385s each sound?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do the different era Bendix 6385s each sound?_

 

The bendix white boxed from late 60's:
 1) Dry and lifeless sound but very detailed and widestaged, not common at all, the highs are excellent, your ears are not being stung when the music's very loud. They can kick your ears. 
 2) bendix 1964 - full of life and truthful sound, very analogue sounding tube,
 extremely detailed, widestaged, close to JW WE396A from eary fifties but much more accurate,faster bass response, better dynamics.
 3) bendix from 1957, best in my opinion, refine and exquisite analogue
 very real sound. Probably superior to all 2c51's, very close to bendix 1964's

 Analogue does't mean warm but there is some warmth in the sounds of them all.


 There is a bendix rtma 1954 which I do not own yet and never heard.


 The tubes were tested on mhdt havana, shanling t200, sennheiser hd800, sonus faber speakers, and DIY tube monoblocks.

 My post was to pay attention to differences between bendix's 6385 tubes depends on the manufacture dates.

 All best Robert


----------



## robeeert1

Choosing bendix 6385 era tube, you should consider the kinds of music you listen to. If you listen to jazz and classical music, the 1957,1964 bendix is the right choice.
 If you listen to pop, rock etc, white boxed bendix you may like better.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2) bendix 1964 - full of life and truthful sound, very analogue sounding tube,
 extremely detailed, widestaged, close to JW WE396A from eary fifties but much more accurate. Faster bass response. _

 

I'm going to give this a try in my rig this evening. I have been using my 1953 JW WE396A exclusively since getting my HD800's. It will be interesting to see what my 1964 Bendix 6385 does with the phones. I hope I can hear these same improvements. I'm looking forward to hearing "more accurate" as these phones are so detailed already.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to give this a try in my rig this evening. I have been using my 1953 JW WE396A exclusively since getting my HD800's. It will be interesting to see what my 1964 Bendix 6385 does with the phones. I hope I can hear these same improvements. I'm looking forward to hearing "more accurate" as these phones are so detailed already._

 

Try to compare them. I'm convinced the 1964 bendix will crash the early fifties we396a tubes especially on hd800.


----------



## Orcin

Well, I just finished and I thought the Western Electric was some better. Go figure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It is a 1953 JW *2C51* 396A, so maybe that makes a difference. Plus, I have a Paradisea+ and not a Havana, so maybe that is a factor (different synergy perhaps?). Or maybe I have a bad 6385 tube, although it was a NOS tube so I don't think so.

 I just think the WE396A has all of the detail of the Bendix plus a warmth that I really like. The Bendix sounds thinner, especially in the midrange. Vocals do not sound as real.

 Lots of variables here, so I am not sure my impressions really contradict yours. Both tubes are certainly outstanding. We are talking about one being a 90 and the other a 95.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I just think the WE396A has all of the detail of the Bendix plus a warmth that I really like. The Bendix sounds thinner, especially in the midrange. Vocals do not sound as real._

 

This was also my impression, too, regarding JW & Bendix tubes. However, this has changed since connecting Havana to my Stax setup. Bendix 6385 became full and warm, not thin at all at the midrange. And JW became dull and tuby. surprise!
 Perhaps my Woo GES and Havana makes the overall sounds tuby as both utilize tubes.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After looking at the prices of these in TubeWorld, I think they all share same sonical qualities. But earlier ones are almost always better bet._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. Will hear it out once it arrives. Will be applying SilClear to those pins too._

 

I am so sorry but I have miss read your question. I thought you won JW pairs. I have not heard regular 396a but I think I read somewhere that there IS the difference between regular and JWs.
 I hope you got them really really cheap as you can get JW 396a for $50 from tubeworld.


----------



## robeeert1

I just think the WE396A has all of the detail of the Bendix plus a warmth that I really like. The Bendix sounds thinner, especially in the midrange. Vocals do not sound as real.
 .[/QUOTE]
 You're wright about the vocals, but using bendix late 60's. The vocals are very real with bendix 1964 on my system at least.


----------



## robeeert1

Orcin:
 Are you absolutely sure your bendix is from 1964?


----------



## robeeert1

The bendix 1964 is analogue real sound, with little tuby warmth,
 jwwe396a is warmer - yes, if someone looks for max warmth the western electric is a better choice for him. Personal preferences.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pzm9pzm9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am so sorry but I have miss read your question. I thought you won JW pairs. I have not heard regular 396a but I think I read somewhere that there IS the difference between regular and JWs.
 I hope you got them really really cheap as you can get JW 396a for $50 from tubeworld._

 

Indeed, I paid less than that for a pair of 50's WE396A plus shipping to Malaysia. Hope the tubes gonna arrive soon.


----------



## DarKu

So who wanna try first the JJ/Tesla 6386 LGP ?
 I want to read some impressions about that tube


----------



## pzm9pzm9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So who wanna try first the JJ/Tesla 6386 LGP ?
 I want to read some impressions about that tube_

 

haha i was wondering about it too. I was waiting for someone to get them. So I can save money


----------



## robeeert1

orcin,
 i saw in your public profile you have Blue Dragon v3 cable with hd800, what is the difference in sound comparing it to stock cable?
 Where did you get it?


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Orcin:
 Are you absolutely sure your bendix is from 1964?_

 


 Yes.

 I agree with your comment that the WE396A has more warmth, and that is what I want. I am looking for a sound that is closer to vinyl.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_orcin,
 i saw in your public profile you have Blue Dragon v3 cable with hd800, what is the difference in sound comparing it to stock cable?
 Where did you get it?_

 


 I bought the Blue Dragon from Moon Audio. It adds depth and extension to the bottom end, and opens up the soundstage even more. Plus I like the looks and feel of the cable and the Furutech plug compared to the stock.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won a pair of 1951 and 1959 WE396A and wondering whether there will be much sonically difference with those JW series._

 

There will be much sonically difference between we396a and "JW" series. I compared jwwe396a from 1952 to we396a from 1960. I couldn't believe what a huge difference was.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There will be much sonically difference between we396a and "JW" series. I compared jwwe396a from 1952 to we396a from 1960. I couldn't believe what a huge difference was._

 

But how would the comparison be if the non-JW series were made during the 50's?


----------



## dura

Hello everybody, after reading this entire threat and the enthusiastic reviews I got myself a Havana too.

 Now I also want a good tube; stock sound is decent but it can be bettered I feel.

 I was thinking about this one: WE 396A (=2C51, 6N3P) Western Electric NOS Tube Tube Amp Doctor - TAD Tools & more

 On the same page there are also Bendix and Tung Sol tubes.
 What do the experts here think, is the WE the way to go?

 Edit: and to proof that I actually read this threat and that I'm crazy too, I also ordered the silver hifi-tuning fuse (BTW it is available in 400 MA).
 And a fusedamper and sorbothane feet.


----------



## DarKu

i recomend to you to go for a *JW* WE396A, you can find one at tubeworld at 70-100$ depending on tube ratings
 If you are low on the money right now go for a Bendix 2c51


----------



## dura

Thanks DarKu. 
 Upon studying the picture the yellow letters say:
 JW 2C51 Western Electronics 396A.
 the datasheet says 1954.
 So that seems the one to get, right?


----------



## DarKu

Sure!
 I have the same one, JW 2c51 WE396A with yellow letters, but mine is cryoed, nevermind it's a *great *tube with the Havana! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Post some impressions after you get that tube


----------



## dura

Will do!
 Thanks for the confirmation, ordered.


----------



## pzm9pzm9

good choice! I also have JW 54'
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 im sure you will love it


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I received a pair of WE396A tubes made in the 50s and the sound awesome. They are much meatier with warmth, detail and much more dynamics in comparison with the Bendix 2C51 made during the 50s too. So the Bendix will be resting for now.

 Incidentally, I won a single JW 2C51/WE396A from eBay too. Therefore a have a spare WE396A now for fast grab.

 A Hifi Tuning fuse in on order and awaiting its arrival which I hope it gonna improve the listening experience with this minor tweak in the great Havana.


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received a pair of WE396A tubes made in the 50s and the sound awesome. They are much meatier with warmth, detail and much more dynamics in comparison with the Bendix 2C51 made during the 50s too. So the Bendix will be resting for now.

 Incidentally, I won a single JW 2C51/WE396A from eBay too. Therefore a have a spare WE396A now for fast grab.

 A Hifi Tuning fuse in on order and awaiting its arrival which I hope it gonna improve the listening experience with this minor tweak in the great Havana._

 

If your JW (military grade) WE396A still have good ratings it will perform better than WE396A, it has better characteristics and a little more "oomph" and weight
 I'm still curious about that JJ/Tesla tube


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If your JW (military grade) WE396A still have good ratings it will perform better than WE396A, it has better characteristics and a little more "oomph" and weight
 I'm still curious about that JJ/Tesla tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It only described as tested NOS and NIB.. Hope the deal is good.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I
 A Hifi Tuning fuse in on order and awaiting its arrival which I hope it gonna improve the listening experience with this minor tweak in the great Havana._

 

I'm very curious about the fuse, write something about the sound changes when it shows up.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Scroll back to page 43 ad a member did commented improvements using the fuse tweak.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Anyone ever thought of replacing the toroidal transformer in the Havana? I am looking at Avel Lindberg and Plitron to begin with.. I am wondering whether it will improves the SQ should the transformer is upgraded.... Trying to google the specification of the stock toroidal transformer but nothing is found, perhaps some member may help..


----------



## unloagora

In it something is. Many thanks for the information, now I will not commit such error.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very curious about the fuse, write something about the sound changes when it shows up._

 


 I commented on the change on page 43.


----------



## dura

A tip for havana users in areas with symetrical mainsplugs, like here in the Netherlands; experiment with polarity, with the 'right' polarity in my house (I got a van den Hul polarity checker) sound is clean, turn it around and the sound gets more boomy bass and sharp treble. Not a day and night difference but clearly audible. Same goes, in my experience, for the Rega Apollo I used to own (great player BTW, especially for the new low price of €600,- over here, but the Havana is clearly better making the Apollo sound rolled of and undetailed in comparison).


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

JW WE396A are in da house of Havana now. The JW is indeed performing much more better than the normal WE396A. I am hearing much more details, better vocal and low bass control. The JW is with 113 code and rating is good. The Bendix and WE396A is awaiting new owner now, some may like its sounding though. My only regret is that I should have got JW tube much earlier... Burning in the great tube now and I believe it will get better over time.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am hearing much more details, better vocal and low bass control._

 

This is exactly how I would describe the JW 396A compared to the standard 396A ...

 Are you going to have a Bendix 6385 for sale? PM me the details if so.

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HiFi Tuning fuse and JW WE396A are in da house of Havana now. The combination is awesome and JW is indeed performing much more better than the normal WE396A. I am hearing much more details, better vocal and low bass control. The JW is with 113 code and rating is good. The Bendix and WE396A is awaiting new owner now, some may like its sounding though. My only regret is that I should have got JW tube and tweaking magical fuse much earlier... Burning in the great tube now and I believe it will get better over time._

 

Exactly the same here; I have a silver hifi tuning fuse (which is BTW available in 400 MA) and a JW WE396A and I love that natural sound i've never heart before out of midrange digital hifi.
 Burn-in is definitely necessary; the Hava went from boomy bass to no bass and back again and a small sound stage before settling on this pleasantly big yet detailed juicy sound signature. 
 I also added a tube damper and sorbothane feet (love what they do under CD-players, they also work great under computers damping noise).

 Burn-in seems to make more difference then in my former digital sources; after having doubts the first days I now love this DAC!

 since it all happened more or less at once, adding the fuse, new tube, tube-damper, feet, burn-in (and the arrival of the DAC less then 2 weeks ago) I do not know what caused what difference in the sound signature, but the endresult is very very pleasant, completely devoid of that digital edge I hated ever since I bought my first CDP in the eighties with a full sounding bass, smooth mids and treble with naturally sounding details (not pseudo-detailed due to mid-treble sharpness like so many digital devices) and a large sound-stage.
 Definately a keeper!
 And I suspect it can sound even better, once I chance my Squeezebox Xlassic for the upcoming Squeezebox Touch, which seems to have a better digital out and a cleaner powersupply.
 Big kudos to the people here that posted about the Havana, that set me on its tail, like Joel with his kind, extended and enthusiastic reports and his comparison with the Stello.

 Oh, BTW, Did any one try out that new JJ 6386 tube yet? 
 Tubeampdoctor has this to say about it:  Quote:


 Comparing the WE396A directly with the 6386 LPG the 6386 opens up like removing a curtain and is offering airy clear details while the WE396A appears a bit smoother and relaxed.


----------



## classfolkphile

So, as I posted a few pages ago, I was bothered by a bit of dryness and grain in the vocal reproduction of the Havana and decided to change the two output coupling caps. 

 I chose Jupiter HTs; partly because of what I've read about them but largely because they are the only hi-end caps close to the original spec (I used 2.2 uf/650 V) that will fit (just), and that don't cost a few hundred dollars apiece. While they list for $76 each, I got them at 20% off through Parts Connexion's current sale.

 They were professionally installed and although one is _very_ close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm.

 The result is that all dryness and graininess is gone while resolution and clarity are improved. Most dramatically the dynamics and bass pitch/definition are hugely increased. All without losing any of the coherence and flow that are a NOS DAC's greatest attraction. 

 I think this is now the best digital front end I've heard in my system (as best as memory serves) and I've had more than a half dozen acclaimed three to five thousand dollar rigs here (all oversampling/upsampling types). A highly recommended upgrade.

 Rob


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, as I posted a few pages ago, I was bothered by a bit of dryness and grain in the vocal reproduction of the Havana and decided to change the two output coupling caps. 

 I chose Jupiter HTs; partly because of what I've read about them but largely because they are the only hi-end caps close to the original spec (I used 2.2 uf/650 V) that will fit (just), and that don't cost a few hundred dollars apiece. While they list for $76 each, I got them at 20% off through Parts Connexion's current sale.

 They were professionally installed and although one is very close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm.

 The result is that all dryness and graininess is gone while resolution and clarity are improved. Most dramatically the dynamics and bass pitch/definition are hugely increased. All without losing any of the coherence and flow that are a NOS DAC's greatest attraction. 

 I think this is now the best digital front end I've heard in my system (as best as memory serves) and I've had more than a half dozen acclaimed three to five thousand dollar rigs here (all oversampling/upsampling types). A highly recommended upgrade.

 Rob_

 

That's quite interesting ... thanks for the update. Can you post some pics of the new caps in the case?

 I might try this my self a bit down the road. Who did you get to install them for you? I have zero soldering skills, personally and would probably seek assistance from somebody.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I am keen to know more and of course some visual will be great. Was planning to replace with V-Cap earlier but hanging on due to soldering poor skill.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, as I posted a few pages ago, I was bothered by a bit of dryness and grain in the vocal reproduction of the Havana and decided to change the two output coupling caps. 

 I chose Jupiter HTs; partly because of what I've read about them but largely because they are the only hi-end caps close to the original spec (I used 2.2 uf/650 V) that will fit (just), and that don't cost a few hundred dollars apiece. While they list for $76 each, I got them at 20% off through Parts Connexion's current sale.

 They were professionally installed and although one is very close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm.

 The result is that all dryness and graininess is gone while resolution and clarity are improved. Most dramatically the dynamics and bass pitch/definition are hugely increased. All without losing any of the coherence and flow that are a NOS DAC's greatest attraction. 

 I think this is now the best digital front end I've heard in my system (as best as memory serves) and I've had more than a half dozen acclaimed three to five thousand dollar rigs here (all oversampling/upsampling types). A highly recommended upgrade.

 Rob_

 

I find it interesting as well.

 How long did it take to do it? 

 USG


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, as I posted a few pages ago, I was bothered by a bit of dryness and grain in the vocal reproduction of the Havana and decided to change the two output coupling caps. 

 I chose Jupiter HTs; partly because of what I've read about them but largely because they are the only hi-end caps close to the original spec (I used 2.2 uf/650 V) that will fit (just), and that don't cost a few hundred dollars apiece. While they list for $76 each, I got them at 20% off through Parts Connexion's current sale.

 They were professionally installed and although one is very close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm.

 The result is that all dryness and graininess is gone while resolution and clarity are improved. Most dramatically the dynamics and bass pitch/definition are hugely increased. All without losing any of the coherence and flow that are a NOS DAC's greatest attraction. 

 I think this is now the best digital front end I've heard in my system (as best as memory serves) and I've had more than a half dozen acclaimed three to five thousand dollar rigs here (all oversampling/upsampling types). A highly recommended upgrade.

 Rob_

 

*Thanky you* for this very nice mod, could you please give to us the direct link to which caps we need to buy? I think removing and placing another cap is very easy to do, even for starters or with no DIY skills at all, it's very easy.
 I want to mod my beloved Havana too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 EDIT: i found the Jupiter caps here: http://www.partsconnexion.com/capaci...m_jupiter.html the exact product name in the catalog is the: JUPITER-009-72891
 I also found V-Cap's for about the same amount of money http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_vcap.html and the exact product is here: http://www.partsconnexion.com/product6343.html if you buy two of those it will be 77,99$ a piece and not 103,99$ a piece. V-Cap's may be a better deal i think, let the modding start! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW 400th post, YAY!


----------



## classfolkphile

Yes, that's the Jupiter cap. The V-cap, being 3" long, won't fit.

 When trying to follow the instructions for creating a picture album in order to post pics of the mod, I received a message that I don't have access to this feature?

 Anyone who can post pics want to receive them via email?

 Rob


----------



## classfolkphile

I had a local tech do it and got it back the next day. Not a hard job for someone skilled but the tight spaces may make it problematic for a beginner. 

 Sound improvement was immediate and got better with break-in. Now have about 70 hours on them.


----------



## M3NTAL

Sonicap GEN I also has a 2.2/600vdc in the small package size if you are looking for something more compact.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sonicap GEN I also has a 2.2/600vdc in the small package size if you are looking for something more compact._

 

Yes, they'll fit and could be an excellent low cost alternative. A lot of people like the Sonicap Gen I and II. 

 As the Gen. Is are very inexpensive and as I didn't care for the Sonicap Platinums in a pair of mono-blocks I had, I succumbed to audiophile snobbery and went with the Jupiters. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm very happy with the result.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, that's the Jupiter cap. The V-cap, being 3" long, won't fit.

 When trying to follow the instructions for creating a picture album in order to post pics of the mod, I received a message that I don't have access to this feature?

 Anyone who can post pics want to receive them via email?

 Rob_

 

Here are the pictures ....


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

The JUPITER-009-72891 caps is huge comparing to the stock caps. I wonder there is any polarity difference when install this caps... There are specific instruction when for V-Caps, anyone care to share.. I may be able to desolder and re-solder the caps but I am a newbie when comes to electronics....

 Can anyone remember the stock capacitor value, is it also 2.2 uf/600V? I am just lazy to pop the cover of the Havana.


----------



## classfolkphile

The value of the stock Havana output coupling caps is 2.0uf/250V.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The value of the stock Havana output coupling caps is 2.0uf/250V._

 

Thanks. I see the increase in values, does it harm the Havana in long run? How bout the polarity/direction in installing the caps?

 ** I did some reading and found this..**
_One thing to consider is that some high voltage capacitors are said to perform better at higher voltages. If used in low voltage circuits, they are said to sound a bit flat. My tests did not reveal huge differences, but in places with less than a volt of DC I have found some caps to sound flat._

 Should this be a concern on Havana?

 Wonder how will this perform VCAP 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series (5% tolerance), W(0.67") x L(1.7") vs stock and Jupiter caps...?


----------



## classfolkphile

I don't know about the polarity/direction of the caps. I had them installed by a very good technician who I'm confident did so properly.

 I posted a question about using the higher values in this thread (where I didn't get much response) and on AC where the consensus (including from several manufacturers) was that it was okay. The thread is here: Help with cap replacement?

 Flatness is not something I'm experiencing with the new caps.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Wonder how will this perform VCAP 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series (5% tolerance), W(0.67") x L(1.7") vs stock and Jupiter caps...?_

 

I might have missed that one - the Parts Connexion listing being ordered by V, not uf as first seems the case. Someone needs to try these caps and report on them.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I find this interesting ...

_Yes, you can. You can always go higher in voltage with your replacement coupling caps without worrying about saftey. As for capacitance, the difference between 2.0 and 2.2 uF is probably within the tolerance variation of the parts anyway, so it's not an issue. If space is an issue, you may find that you don't need the whole 2uF of coupling capacitance. For example, I am using 0.47uF copper paper in oil in my Constantine+, and there was no feeling of inadequate bass drive after stepping down from the MHDT 2uF caps. The sound quality sure got better though_


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I might have missed that one - the Parts Connexion listing being ordered by V, not uf as first seems the case. Someone needs to try these caps and report on them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have this on order as we chat..

 2 JUPITER 2.2uf / 600VJUPITER-009-72891$76.00$152.00

 Hope I had place a correct order..


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have this on order as we chat..

 2 JUPITER 2.2uf / 600VJUPITER-009-72891$76.00$152.00

 Hope I had place a correct order.._

 

Wow, impulse by of the century!


----------



## Bobby Empire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly the same here; I have a silver hifi tuning fuse (which is BTW available in 400 MA) and a JW WE396A and I love that natural sound i've never heart before out of midrange digital hifi.
 Burn-in is definitely necessary; the Hava went from boomy bass to no bass and back again and a small sound stage before settling on this pleasantly big yet detailed juicy sound signature. 
 I also added a tube damper and sorbothane feet (love what they do under CD-players, they also work great under computers damping noise).

 Burn-in seems to make more difference then in my former digital sources; after having doubts the first days I now love this DAC!

 since it all happened more or less at once, adding the fuse, new tube, tube-damper, feet, burn-in (and the arrival of the DAC less then 2 weeks ago) I do not know what caused what difference in the sound signature, but the endresult is very very pleasant, completely devoid of that digital edge I hated ever since I bought my first CDP in the eighties with a full sounding bass, smooth mids and treble with naturally sounding details (not pseudo-detailed due to mid-treble sharpness like so many digital devices) and a large sound-stage.
 Definately a keeper!
 And I suspect it can sound even better, once I chance my Squeezebox Xlassic for the upcoming Squeezebox Touch, which seems to have a better digital out and a cleaner powersupply.
 Big kudos to the people here that posted about the Havana, that set me on its tail, like Joel with his kind, extended and enthusiastic reports and his comparison with the Stello.

 Oh, BTW, Did any one try out that new J.J. 6386 tube yet? 
 Tubeampdoctor has this to say about it:_

 

Hi, how are you. I thought you might be interested to know that the JJ 6386 tubes were brought back to life by Simon Saywood and J.J. Electronics for use in the AT-101 Fairchild 670 replica. They are fantastic and actually have a longer life span than the originals.

 Best,
 Robert McCormick
analoguetube.com
 Hollywood, CA.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bobby Empire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, how are you. I thought you might be interested to know that the JJ 6386 tubes were brought back to life by Simon Saywood and J.J. Electronics for use in the AT-101 Fairchild 670 replica. They are fantastic and actually have a longer life span than the originals.

 Best,
 Robert McCormick
analoguetube.com
 Hollywood, CA._

 

I was just put a hold on tube rolling and another tube is recommended. I am trying out to replace output capacitors for now and hope it will change the sound signature of the DAC. Might move into isolation feets later.


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bobby Empire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, how are you. I thought you might be interested to know that the JJ 6386 tubes were brought back to life by Simon Saywood and J.J. Electronics for use in the AT-101 Fairchild 670 replica. They are fantastic and actually have a longer life span than the originals.

 Best,
 Robert McCormick
analoguetube.com
 Hollywood, CA._

 

Hi Robert,

 yes, I know. 
 I was hoping someone had already tried them in the Havana and could tell us about that combination, but no luck.
 After my holiday to SE Asia next month I'll probably try them myself and will report back.
 I love the WJ WE396 (1954) I got right now, but a slightly more open and extended signature might be interesting as well.

 I love my Havana more and more. 
 It's very good for vocal music, slightly less for electronic music (where a digital sounding DAC accentuating the extremes is better) and a big surprise: it rocks! I was listening to Led Zeppelin the other night and always found it sound irritatingly peeky; now the music was 'architectonic'; large but at the same time had real speed.
 The Havana is also very friendly with old recordings; f.i. old Ella Fitzgerard records were suddenly very enjoyable letting me in on how lovely her voice really was while my former sources tend to accentuate the imperfections and spoil the fun.


----------



## DarKu

Oh Yeah, Havana definitely rocks hard with old rock recordings I listen.
 waiting for some JJ 8386 impressions dura 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Still cannot decide V-Cap OIMP or Jupiter....


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh Yeah, Havana definitely rocks hard with old rock recordings I listen.
 waiting for some JJ 8386 impressions dura 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Still cannot decide V-Cap OIMP or Jupiter...._

 

If you decide V-CAP 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series, you will save some $$$. The Jupiter HT 2.0 uF / 600V will be slightly more expensive. The is from the costing point.

 As for sonic performance, I am equally awaiting for feedback although I have the Jupiter on order... but I have not receive the payment instruction from PCX. Can't wait to get my hand on the upgrade output capacitor... Gotta brush up my soldering skills now.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

So the verdict of which the direction the fuse is as displayed or otherwise...? 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 It's downright maddening to be honest.

 Turn it one way and the bass tightens up dramatically but loses a bit of depth/extension ... the mids become a tad recessed ... the highs become a tad rolled off but very very sweet and forgiving (especially with the GS1000's) and the soundstage becomes crazy huge and almost like you turned on a stereo effect of some kind ...

 Turn it the opposite way and the mids become less recessed and a bit forward, the bass fattens up and gains depth but loses tautness, the highs gain a bit more sizzle and "splash" and the soundstage, while still really nice, becomes a bit more centered and not as wide ...




_


----------



## bdh

Can you somehow rig two fuses in parallel and put them in both ways so you get the best of both configurations? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Joking of course, but would be interesting to at least try.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bdh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you somehow rig two fuses in parallel and put them in both ways so you get the best of both configurations? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Joking of course, but would be interesting to at least try._

 

Hoping santa will send me another Havana with HiFi Tuning Fuse installed and let my abnormality, I meant 4 ears on my bald head to hear the difference..


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the verdict of which the direction the fuse is as displayed or otherwise...?_

 

Yes. I found that as displayed above sounded the best for me.

 The Hi Fi Tuning folks say to try it both ways and go with whatever polarity your ear prefers ...

 BTW: if you confirm classphile's findings on the Jupiter caps, I'll be the next in line to mod mine as well. Especially if it tightens the bass up a tad. I dig the bass in the Havana stock, but with the Raptor amp, it can get a little too "big" sounding with my GS1000's ... with my Shure 840's and any other cans I have laying around (K701's, etc.) it's perfect but since my GS1000's are my primary listening cans, it would be nice if I could "voice" my rig towards them mostly.

 But as my reluctance to mod the Havana further should already indicate, ... I'm loving the DAC's (mostly) stock sound and am reluctant to mess with something that almost totally satisfies me.

 Do a little write up once you get your new caps installed.

 Rock on.

 .joel


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

classfolkphile's recommendation was to place the fuse with the direction of the arrow facing the acrylic panel which I did from the start and I will rotate the to opposite for now.

 As for the Jupiter caps, I have not heard from parts connecXion since order placed on December 18, 2009. I may consider an alternative to order a pair of V-Cap 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series from VH Audio if I don't hear from PC by end of 2009.

 I will post the impression if I ever get the capacitors installed.

 Thanks for sharing your view in regard to the fuse's polarity.

 Merry Xmas & Happy New Year.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. I found that as displayed above sounded the best for me.

 The Hi Fi Tuning folks say to try it both ways and go with whatever polarity your ear prefers ...

 Felix,

 BTW: if you confirm classphile's findings on the Jupiter caps, I'll be the next in line to mod mine as well. Especially if it tightens the bass up a tad. I dig the bass in the Havana stock, but with the Raptor amp, it can get a little too "big" sounding with my GS1000's ... with my Shure 840's and any other cans I have laying around (K701's, etc.) it's perfect but since my GS1000's are my primary listening cans, it would be nice if I could "voice" my rig towards them mostly.

 But as my reluctance to mod the Havana further should already indicate, ... I'm loving the DAC's (mostly) stock sound and am reluctant to mess with something that almost totally satisfies me.

 Do a little write up once you get your new caps installed.

 Rock on.

 .joel_


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The stock fuse is a 400MA/250V - 5x20MM fuse. The Hi-Fi Tuning fuse comes in that denomination in the gold version. The silver one only comes in a 500MA (everything else is the same). I was assured by The Cable Company that either value could be used without a problem.

 Edit: the above is for the US version!_

 

The Asian version of Havana is fitted with stock fuse is a 400MA/250V - 5x20MM fuse too.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I got the HI-FI Tuning fuses in today ...

 ...

http://resume.jbhfile.com/temp/fuse_havana.jpg

 ...

 A definite improvement over the stock fuse!

*x2 resolution* and especially ... well ... resolution. Yet another bit of veil removed is the best way to put it ... 

 But there's more ...

 What's really mind boggling is how much of a difference changing the polarity/orientation of the fuse makes!

 It's downright maddening to be honest.

 Turn it one way and the bass tightens up dramatically but loses a bit of depth/extension ... the mids become a tad recessed ... the highs become a tad rolled off but very very sweet and forgiving (especially with the GS1000's) and the soundstage becomes crazy huge and almost like you turned on a stereo effect of some kind ...

 Turn it the opposite way and the mids become less recessed and a bit forward, the bass fattens up and gains depth but loses tautness, the highs gain a bit more sizzle and "splash" and the soundstage, while still really nice, becomes a bit more centered and not as wide ...

 Really ... it's freakishly *horrible* to start such comparisons on a Friday evening, a night before work and all.

 I had to settle on a certain setting (mind you for DAC *and* AMP, where the above holds identically true) so as to be able to get some work/listening done and also get to bed at a certain time ...

 Anyway ...

 They are legit and I can't imagine the trauma I'm going to suffer this weekend while trying to figure out which polarity setting I'm going to stick with between the DAC and AMP ... LOL.





_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. I found that as displayed above sounded the best for me.

 The Hi Fi Tuning folks say to try it both ways and go with whatever polarity your ear prefers ...

 BTW: if you confirm classphile's findings on the Jupiter caps, I'll be the next in line to mod mine as well. Especially if it tightens the bass up a tad. I dig the bass in the Havana stock, but with the Raptor amp, it can get a little too "big" sounding with my GS1000's ... with my Shure 840's and any other cans I have laying around (K701's, etc.) it's perfect but since my GS1000's are my primary listening cans, it would be nice if I could "voice" my rig towards them mostly.

 But as my reluctance to mod the Havana further should already indicate, ... I'm loving the DAC's (mostly) stock sound and am reluctant to mess with something that almost totally satisfies me.

 Do a little write up once you get your new caps installed.

 Rock on.

 .joel_

 

Hi

 I was just wondering. Considering the difference is as large as you describe, would you record a short WAV with the fuze in either position VS the stock fuze and post it so we can hear the differences you are experiencing? I am especially interested in hearing the *2x resolution* that was reported.

 Perhaps some others might do this as well.

 I've done this exercise with several DACs, most notably a Stello DA100 and a Neko D100, and after volume balancing the WAVs, I was not able to tell them apart. 

 I also discovered that after volume balancing the DACs themselves, I was not able to tell them apart during direct listening comparisons with my 650s and GS-1. 

 It was a most unpleasant experience to come face to face with the placebo effect after posting about the significant differences between those two DACs.

 USG


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi

 I was just wondering. Considering the difference is as large as you describe, would you record a short WAV with the fuze in either position VS the stock fuze and post it so we can hear the differences you are experiencing? I am especially interested in hearing the *2x resolution* that was reported.

 Perhaps some others might do this as well.

 I've done this exercise with several DACs, most notably a Stello DA100 and a Neko D100, and after volume balancing the WAVs, I was not able to tell them apart. 

 I also discovered that after volume balancing the DACs themselves, I was not able to tell them apart during direct listening comparisons with my 650s and GS-1. 

 It was a most unpleasant experience to come face to face with the placebo effect after posting about the significant differences between those two DACs.

 USG_

 

Hey ... perhaps in the future I might break down and do this but for now I want to leave the fuse as is since when I installed it I applied Walkers SST (silver treatment compound) to the metal ends of the fuse and don't have any walkers left to reapply once I remove/re install the fuse. So, not wanting to mar the compounds contact that has long since 'settled' ... I'm reluctant to remove the fuse. Maybe somebody who is getting a new fuse will follow up on this.

 Your experience/comment about testing two individual .WAV files is interesting, though.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey ... perhaps in the future I might break down and do this but for now I want to leave the fuse as is since when I installed it I applied Walkers SST (silver treatment compound) to the metal ends of the fuse and don't have any walkers left to reapply once I remove/re install the fuse. So, not wanting to mar the compounds contact that has long since 'settled' ... I'm reluctant to remove the fuse. Maybe somebody who is getting a new fuse will follow up on this.

 Your experience/comment about testing two individual .WAV files is interesting, though._

 

That's understandable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe someone else will try it.

 USG


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I am looking at the orientation on the output capacitors of the and to be sure I go it right. The V-Cap and stock caps are pointing the same direction but Jupiter is the opposite.

 I need some input on this as I am totally a newbie in electronics..

 This is what I received from Chris of VH Audio...

_A few notes about the V-Caps:

 These caps use 18 AWG Teflon-insulated, or bare solid copper leads. Because of the stiffness of these leads, extra care should be exercised when bending the leads for installation.
 Although the V-Caps are not polarized, many have found it is best to keep the lead orientation relative to the innermost and outermost foil consistent. The green lead (short lead on OIMP series) indicates the outermost foil, and should always be connected to the lowest impedance return path to ground in the circuit. In practice, this means the outer foil should be connected towards the plate of first stage, when used in amplifiers. If using as a bypass cap to ground, connect outer foil to ground. If using as a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect outer foil to B+. Another way to identify is the “V” in the V-Cap label indicates “inner foil” side of the cap. Leads should be kept as short as possible, and the caps should be mounted securely. 3M double -sided foam tape and plastic ties work well for this. Avoid over-tightening with ties._


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I rotated the HF Tuning fuse pointing to the rear panel this morning and been listening for the last hour... Wider soundstage, more emphasis on vocals and mids, bass tighten up are what I am experiencing. Appreciates all these improvements at the cost of some detail loss.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I rotated the HF Tuning fuse pointing to the rear panel this morning and been listening for the last hour... Wider soundstage, more emphasis on vocals and mids, bass tighten up are what I am experiencing. Appreciates all these improvements at the cost of some detail loss._

 

Hi OutdoorX

 Make a few WAV recordings in each position with Audacity. See if you are able to record what you are hearing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_















 I am looking at the orientation on the output capacitors of the and to be sure I go it right. The V-Cap and stock caps are pointing the same direction but Jupiter is the opposite.

 I need some input on this as I am totally a newbie in electronics..

 This is what I received from Chris of VH Audio...

A few notes about the V-Caps:

 These caps use 18 AWG Teflon-insulated, or bare solid copper leads. Because of the stiffness of these leads, extra care should be exercised when bending the leads for installation.
 Although the V-Caps are not polarized, many have found it is best to keep the lead orientation relative to the innermost and outermost foil consistent. The green lead (short lead on OIMP series) indicates the outermost foil, and should always be connected to the lowest impedance return path to ground in the circuit. In practice, this means the outer foil should be connected towards the plate of first stage, when used in amplifiers. If using as a bypass cap to ground, connect outer foil to ground. If using as a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect outer foil to B+. Another way to identify is the “V” in the V-Cap label indicates “inner foil” side of the cap. Leads should be kept as short as possible, and the caps should be mounted securely. 3M double -sided foam tape and plastic ties work well for this. Avoid over-tightening with ties._

 



 How long do you expect those Jupiters to last without a fan blowing on them?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How long do you expect those Jupiters to last without a fan blowing on them?_

 

I thought these are the newer Jupiter with better heat resistance than the earlier Jupiter which were like candle stick.. Accordingly to classfolkphile, _"They were professionally installed and although one is very close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm."_. So why is a fan needed?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought these are the newer Jupiter with better heat resistance than the earlier Jupiter which were like candle stick.. Accordingly to classfolkphile, "They were professionally installed and although one is very close to the heat sink, they do not even get warm.". So why is a fan needed?_

 

The operating temperature of the cap is 70C max but its still beeswax inside. Did classfolphile put a temp probe on them with the cover on? It will be interesting to see how long this newer version lasts stuffed in this DAC. Listen for changes in sound in a few months, keep us posted.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

To be safe, should I be considering V-Cap 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series instead? The values are rated per the stock caps and costing wise is cheaper than Jupiter. No worries of operating temperature too. What say you??


----------



## btbluesky

If someone can use the modded Havana with a very transparent system (like a tube amp w/ high eff bookshelf), then we can compare truly what it can do. Otherwise, there are so many limitations to what even a highend headphone can do.


----------



## M3NTAL

which DAC is pictured with the v-caps?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be safe, should I be considering V-Cap 2.0 uF / 250V OIMP Series instead? The values are rated per the stock caps and costing wise is cheaper than Jupiter. No worries of operating temperature too. What say you??_

 


 Let me put it this way, Jupiter has a bad track record anywhere near heatsinks, the new series may be better but I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig for that kind of money.

 I always use oil output caps with tube equipment, they just compliment the sound. You don't need 2.2 uF sized caps if your source has atleast a typical 50kohm imput impedance. I would look for Russian K40 1uF's on ebay, they sound fantastic as tube DAC output caps, but that's just my preference.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which DAC is pictured with the v-caps?_

 







  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me put it this way, Jupiter has a bad track record anywhere near heatsinks, the new series may be better but I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig for that kind of money.

 I always use oil output caps with tube equipment, they just compliment the sound. You don't need 2.2 uF sized caps if your source has atleast a typical 50kohm imput impedance. I would look for Russian K40 1uF's on ebay, they sound fantastic as tube DAC output caps, but that's just my preference._

 

Point taken.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi

 I was just wondering. Considering the difference is as large as you describe, would you record a short WAV with the fuze in either position VS the stock fuze and post it so we can hear the differences you are experiencing? I am especially interested in hearing the *2x resolution* that was reported.

 Perhaps some others might do this as well.

 I've done this exercise with several DACs, most notably a Stello DA100 and a Neko D100, and after volume balancing the WAVs, I was not able to tell them apart. 

 I also discovered that after volume balancing the DACs themselves, I was not able to tell them apart during direct listening comparisons with my 650s and GS-1. 

 It was a most unpleasant experience to come face to face with the placebo effect after posting about the significant differences between those two DACs.

 USG_

 

I don't know how you did the listening comparison but I've found that a short term AB test does not always illuminate differences in equipment. Sometimes one has to listen for an extended period to really hear the differences in gear. Factors like fatigue, ability to focus and even mood alter how our brains process sound as well. I think it's an exaggeration to describe what you heard (or rather didn't hear) as a placebo effect. That said, similarly designed and constructed equipment can certainly sound quite alike. Placebo effects, whether of medicine or sound, do not last for a long time, so repeated or extended listening sessions will usually produce a consistent result.

 I posted earlier that I heard a significant improvement with the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse (the differences were consistent after re-inserting the stock fuse and also in going from a gold to silver aftermarket one). However, although I heard a difference in sound depending upon how the upgraded fuses were oriented, it was very slight.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The operating temperature of the cap is 70C max but its still beeswax inside. Did classfolphile put a temp probe on them with the cover on? It will be interesting to see how long this newer version lasts stuffed in this DAC. Listen for changes in sound in a few months, keep us posted._

 

70C = 158F. The old Jupiter caps melted above 110F: the new ones are improved by an almost 50 degree margin. What difference does it make if they're beeswax inside if they can in fact operate at the stated temps? Here is Jupiter's description of the HTs.

 "A unique blend of the old sound with refinements of the new. New high temp series replaces the original beeswax/paper design. Jupiter Condenser HT line of capacitors features a reinforced beeswax paper dielectric and (with further improved impregnation techinques) _is now cased in a non drip/melt casing_ (italics mine) and can withstand higher operating temperatures. Perfect for DIY and OEM use where natural sound is demanded."

 Of course if their claims are not true, then there could be a problem. Fwiw, I did read a couple of reviews (I don't remember where) of the HTs that stated that they were in fact far more durable and supposedly better sounding (more dynamic and transparent, IIRC) than the originals.

 No, I haven't put a temperature probe on them but I ran the DAC with both the top off and on (then taking the top off after running it for several hours and immediately putting my fingers over the caps), and there was no significant (or perhaps even perceptible) difference in my perception of the caps' (negligible; i.e., _extremely slight_) warmth. I can't imagine that they could be operating anywhere near their stated limit. Time, of course, will tell.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me put it this way, Jupiter has a bad track record anywhere near heatsinks, the new series may be better but I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig for that kind of money.

 I always use oil output caps with tube equipment, they just compliment the sound. You don't need 2.2 uF sized caps if your source has atleast a typical 50kohm imput impedance. I would look for Russian K40 1uF's on ebay, they sound fantastic as tube DAC output caps, but that's just my preference._

 

I understand your caution. However given what I'd read about the improvement in the HTs and being uneducated in electronics and a novice in changing caps, I was more concerned with utilizing caps that were close in uf.

 I find your observation about oil output caps being complimentary with tube equipment interesting. I, intuitively, would have thought they might be too similar in sound and therefore an unbalanced combination. Can you specify some examples that you found worked well?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I am caught between Jupiter and V-Cap for now and the good news is I have yet to receive the payment advise from parts conneXion todate. Those guy must have gone for their holidays.. But I still wanna experience the awesome DAC with further upgrades, be it cosmetically or sonically.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know how you did the listening comparison but I've found that a short term AB test does not always illuminate differences in equipment. Sometimes one has to listen for an extended period to really hear the differences in gear. Factors like fatigue, ability to focus and even mood alter how our brains process sound as well. I think it's an exaggeration to describe what you heard (or rather didn't hear) as a placebo effect. That said, similarly designed and constructed equipment can certainly sound quite alike. Placebo effects, whether of medicine or sound, do not last for a long time, so repeated or extended listening sessions will usually produce a consistent result.

*I posted earlier that I heard a significant improvement with the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse (the differences were consistent after re-inserting the stock fuse* and also in going from a gold to silver aftermarket one). However, although I heard a difference in sound depending upon how the upgraded fuses were oriented, it was very slight._

 

Hi CFP

 Listening tests, especially those dependent on long term memory of "how you remember something used to sound" aren't very scientific because the placebo effect, by definition, allows you to experience great differences where there are none.

 One of our resident geniuses suggested that, just by listening, anyone could probably convenience themselves that "various differences exist" and outlined a better way to determine if what "you thought you heard" was really there.

 Let's focus on the "*significant improvement*" you heard with the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse over the stock fuse, since that is a very large difference and should be easily heard and recorded. 

 He suggested this simple procedure:

 - recording a WAV of the "before" and one of the "after" in Audacity. (Volume balance if necessary)

 - convert them to mono. 

 - combine the two mono tracks into a stereo track.

 - line them up so the peaks and valleys coincide.

 - now invert one of the tracks and convert the stereo to mono.

 - anything that doesn't cancel out will be your "significant improvement".

 Now, of course you could cheat, but if you don't, I am sure that you will find, as I did, that coming face to face with the placebo effect is quite an unpleasant experience.

 You other guys can try this too. The only person you have to be honest with is yourself.

 USG


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi CFP

 Listening tests, especially those dependent on long term memory of "how you remember something used to sound" aren't very scientific because the placebo effect, by definition, allows you to experience great differences where there are none.

 One of our resident geniuses suggested that, just by listening, anyone could probably convenience themselves that "various differences exist" and outlined a better way to determine if what "you thought you heard" was really there.

 Let's focus on the "*significant improvement*" you heard with the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse over the stock fuse, since that is a very large difference and should be easily heard and recorded. 

 He suggested this simple procedure:

 - recording a WAV of the "before" and one of the "after" in Audacity. (Volume balance if necessary)

 - convert them to mono. 

 - combine the two mono tracks into a stereo track.

 - line them up so the peaks and valleys coincide.

 - now invert one of the tracks and convert the stereo to mono.

 - anything that doesn't cancel out will be your "significant improvement".

 Now, of course you could cheat, but if you don't, I am sure that you will find, as I did, that coming face to face with the placebo effect is quite an unpleasant experience.

 You other guys can try this too. The only person you have to be honest with is yourself.

 USG_

 

I would if I could but that procedure is beyond me at this point in time. I'm not yet using my Mac as a source and know nothing, yet, of recording or playback software.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am caught between Jupiter and V-Cap for now and the good news is I have yet to receive the payment advise from parts conneXion todate. Those guy must have gone for their holidays.. But I still wanna experience the awesome DAC with further upgrades, be it cosmetically or sonically._

 

I think you should try the V-caps just so the rest of us can hear about a different option for the Havana. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, for further info about the heat issue, I decided to be brave/foolish and, after running the Havana for several hours with the top on (w/o screws), removed it, and actually put my fingers on the Jupiter caps. Barely warm, i.e., barely above room temperature. For conclusive scientific evidence, I'll see if RS has a surface temp probe when I get a chance. It should be noted that there are relatively large ventilation holes in the Havana top, including right over the heat sink.

 At around a hundred hours, I am continually impressed with the transparency and beauty of the sound.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- convert them to mono. 

 - combine the two mono tracks into a stereo track.

 - line them up so the peaks and valleys coincide.

 - now invert one of the tracks and convert the stereo to mono.

 - anything that doesn't cancel out will be your "significant improvement".

 USG_

 

USG, just so you know, this suffers from the same problem that exists by trying to find out what a headphone sounds like from the frequency response graph.
 Sure, it can tell you the relative amounts of the frequency range present, but it doesn't tell you *how* it sounds. You also do not gain any knowledge of how the sound is presented.
 (it would tell you how fast the music is presented though, which is a cool feature).

 Your method is very clever, but it's flawed in some respects.
 Sadly, when you start buying very high end components, you have to go beyond the frequency response graphs, beyond the simplistic 'spl' measurements.


 All that said, who ever said they are hearing 2x better music with a fuse swap or a cap change I don't believe one bit. Sounds like patrick wanna-be's.
 Pitty they have picked the Havana to be their playground for such acts.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I might end up with the V-Cap as suggested. Meanwhile I have not heard from MHDT Labs in regard to the orientation of the caps, I gonna be installing the caps myself rather than sending it to Audio shop... if I ever perform the upgrade.

 There will be some savings if I am opting V-Cap and the it will be a 250V where Jupiter is rated at 600V. Wonder how will the performance difference from stock in comparison with stock caps.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you should try the V-caps just so the rest of us can hear about a different option for the Havana. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, for further info about the heat issue, I decided to be brave/foolish and, after running the Havana for several hours with the top on (w/o screws), removed it, and actually put my fingers on the Jupiter caps. Barely warm, i.e., barely above room temperature. For conclusive scientific evidence, I'll see if RS has a surface temp probe when I get a chance. It should be noted that there are relatively large ventilation holes in the Havana top, including right over the heat sink.

 At around a hundred hours, I am continually impressed with the transparency and beauty of the sound._


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_USG, just so you know, this suffers from the same problem that exists by trying to find out what a headphone sounds like from the frequency response graph.
 Sure, it can tell you the relative amounts of the frequency range present, but it doesn't tell you *how* it sounds. You also do not gain any knowledge of how the sound is presented.
 (it would tell you how fast the music is presented though, which is a cool feature).

 Your method is very clever, but it's flawed in some respects.
 Sadly, when you start buying very high end components, you have to go beyond the frequency response graphs, beyond the simplistic 'spl' measurements.


 All that said, who ever said they are hearing 2x better music with a fuse swap or a cap change I don't believe one bit. Sounds like patrick wanna-be's.
 Pitty they have picked the Havana to be their playground for such acts._

 

Hi T7

 I know you indirectly from some of the NY meets.... so all I'm going to say is this:

 No test is perfect, but any attempt at a scientific test is better than trying to wing it from our auditory memory system. 

 This exercise is merely to determine if the differences that were reported by changing a fuse are really there or are the result of expectation, anticipation or just plain old placebo effect. 

 It was not designed to determine *how* the Havana sounds, just how much difference the fuse tweak makes in that sound.

 It is an easy exercise and a humbling experience.

 USG


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi T7

 It is an easy exercise and a humbling experience.

 USG_

 

Yes, it sure is. To be honest, I never would have thought of trying that.

 Wish it would work to show the differences between the soundstage. Sadly, I know of no easy test for how dacs position instruments, etc.

 Hm, I might just give it a try and compare my HD580 and HD650 and see what it comes up with.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, it sure is. To be honest, I never would have thought of trying that.

 Wish it would work to show the differences between the soundstage. Sadly, I know of no easy test for how dacs position instruments, etc.

 Hm, I might just give it a try and compare my HD580 and HD650 and see what it comes up with._

 

I would think that the spacial cues that contribute to soundstage should be right there in the WAV and therefore recordable. I've been playing with the 5.1 surround plugins in foobar (5.1 thread) and "that" effect is recordable. 

 I don't know how to compare headphones with this technique. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You could compare the difference between DACs, the difference between amps, the difference between various tubes or opamps in a DAC or an Amp, and the difference between power cords, cables and other tweaks. 

 It's very cool, too bad I didn't think it up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## s1rrah

You guys rock.

 Sh1t man .. 

 I don't think I understood a single word of what everyone was going about in the above, past, 10 posts and all. But it sounded really good and so I thank you.

 But I do know one thing ...

 I love my Havana DAC.

 (and I'm trying not to order some Jupiter caps; really, I'm trying real hard)


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys rock.

 I love my Havana DAC.

 (and I'm trying not to order some Jupiter caps; really, I'm trying real hard)




_

 

How do you feel on V-Cap 2.0uF/250VDC or even the 2.0uF/600VDC OIMP Series Audio Capacitors instead? I doubt parts conneXion is gonna take my biz. I may end up with VH Audio instead which has proven reliability so far.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you feel on V-Cap 2.0uF/250VDC or even the 2.0uF/600VDC OIMP Series Audio Capacitors instead? I doubt parts conneXion is gonna take my biz. I may end up with VH Audio instead which has proven reliability so far._

 


 Felix, you might want to send them another email with a copy of your original one. It's possible they just lost the latter. I've found them responsive in my dealings with them and there's no reason you should miss out on the 20% discount, whichever cap you go with.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I have sent twice and still no reply, perhaps I should make a new order and see how it goes.


----------



## Riffle

JJ 6386 on the way. $108 with free shipping at tubesandmore.com through 12/31. For those considering a cap upgrade go for it. Here are a couple of good links:
ecp.cc
Humble Homemade Hifi
 I still love my Jantzens.


----------



## dura

Beat you to it, I received my new JJ6386 yesterday. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I installed it right away, together with an Duende Criatura tube damper.
 That damper BTW, fits over the op of the tube. Since the 6383 is slightly longer then f.i. the WE396 the damper fits right between the tube and the round hole in the top plate, seemingly giving extra damping. I have to admit though that do not have much experience with tubes and am not sure if a tubedamper does anything benificial for the sound.

 About the 6386 itself, I find it hard to decide what to say; on the one hand it is not burned-in and that is clearly audible. Rough treble especially.
 On the other hand, by the time it is burned-in I'll probably have forgotten how the JW WE396E (1954) I had installed before sounded like.
 A few lines perhaps, also keep in my mind I have a speakerbased system.

 The differences that most strike me is the soundstage and the bass.
 The bass looses that pleasant blanket of warm full undamped midbass the 396 added. It might chance, but right now the bass is leaner and has more authority, more muscular, male voices sound cleaner and more sonor instead of 'resonating'. 
 Soundstage is remarkably different; the 396 projects most of the music behind the lines between the speakers, the 6386 keeps the depth backwards but also adds depth forward, reaching out to me. I like that a lot. Soundstage got slightly broader too, and the whole space is filled with music, some sounds hanging in the air in a very attractive way.

 Before I have to makes WAVs or something
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, let me point out that the differences are _relative _to each other and similarities are bigger.
 Chancing tubes is something like chancing LS-cables; it does make a chance, not too big, the character from the system remains largely the same, but if you know the system well, the _relative _chance can be worth it. After all, a small chance can be the difference between pretty and ugly, right?

 Too soon to say what will be my favorite tube in a month (I'll be on vacation in SE-Asia anyway then, too cold here right now) it largely dfepends on how the treble will smooth out, but I have high hopes for the 3986, finding the 396 overdoing it sometimes and I love the extra clarity, especially on electronic music.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I don't seem to be able to google any feedback on the expected improvement by swapping the stock output caps with V-Cap OIMP Caps. The only feedback found was on a Paradisea .... Hope to hear positively before the year ends.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't seem to be able to google any feedback on the expected improvement by swapping the stock output caps with V-Cap OIMP Caps. The only feedback found was on a Paradisea .... Hope to hear positively before the year ends._

 

OutdoorX

 You might want to consider *resale value* before you muck about inside your Havana....

 If you're not happy with the performance you're getting from the stock unit, why not sell it while it's still intact and move on to a DAC that sounds better to you?

 USG


----------



## dura

After 48 hours burn-in the 6386 has smoothed out in the treble. The burn-in proces is probably not completed, but all the typical new rough edges are gone. Treble is clear yet never sharp.
 Compared to the 396 I stay with my first observations: bass is less fat and more defined, soundstage is larger, the sound is clear yet smooth. I think I prefer the 6386 to the WE396, the warmth of the latter combined with the laid-back character of the DAC is too much of a good thing too my ears, but it is a matter of taste and system synergy, not of the 6386 being clearly superior. But all in all I feel the 6386 gives less coloration. 

 The DAC still misses the macro-dynamics SS/OS and enormous soundstage mainstream digital players can give, in exchange you get the lovely unforced natural micro-dynamic detail and perfect timing. Again, on my speakerbased system (see sign), this will probably less of a problem in a headphone based system.
 I can see where the experiments with capacitors find their motivation, but I have to say I doubt if lack of macrodynamics is cured by chancing the capacitors, since I think it seems to be a characteristic of NOS-DACs and tube amplification. 
 Too me the advantages outweight the disadvantages, expecting perfection at this price point is probably asking too much, because depite the very enthousiastic reviews the Havana is not perfect, and as I said before, IMO its main fault is its lack of macrodynamics. 
 But, like often in life, it is probably this characteristic that also gives the DAC its greatest strenghts; smoothness, timing, unforced musicality, and very important to me, no fatigue. I can listen to this thing for hours.
 Two sides of the same coin IMO.

 I agree with Upstateguy; modding will reduce the resale value. 
 See if you can take the bad with the good or look somewhere else, is my advice concerning the Havana. 
 Me, I have occasional doubts and have to remind myself sometimes of the points made above, but all in all I think the Havana is a keeper, especially since I'm completely allergic to "digital" sound, the only CD-player I ever could afford and like was the Rega Apollo, which was less perfect then the Havana but shared some strengths; so I strongly doubt I can find something more enjoyable for my taste at this pricepoint then the Havana.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Noted with thanks. I will stay away from modifying the great Havana for now as I am even not connivence of the improvements after the capacitors replacement. I would probably spend my excess money on either IC or other cables..

 Happy New Year.


----------



## dura

Ik think that is a sensible decision. 
 Oh, btw, that little grayness mentioned by someone who tried to cure it with chancing the capacitors?
 Completely gone with the 6386. So that is yet another way to spent your money 


 Edit: Update 6386: after having spent a few comfortable hours listening to music it has become clear to me that I definitely prefer the 6383 above the WE396E.
 The 6386 is simply letting more through, the 396 in comparison seems to add such a large amount of midbass warmth that I call it very coloured in comparison. Especially since the price is the loss of definition in the bass and mids.
 The 6386 gives deeper better defined bass, very clear, well defined voices, treble is less soft but purer, but still no harshness at all. It sounds more powerful and has a larger soundstage. 
 Again, to my ears on my speakerbased system. 
 I can easily understand people with f.i. gradoheadphones preferring the 396 but to me the JJ 6386 is my favorite tube from now on.


----------



## robeeert1

talking about best tubes for havana: there is nothing better than bendix 6385 from fifties!!


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_talking about best tubes for havana: there is nothing better than bendix 6385 from fifties!!_

 

Your post should read:

 "talking about tubes for havana: My favorite is the bendix 6385 from fifties!!"


----------



## Riffle

The JJ 6386 has supplanted my reigning favorite, the Ericsson gold pin. Out of the box the 6386’s gave me listener fatigue in 15 minutes, but I heard some things that were very promising. I let them burn in for two days and sat down to listen today. I listened through my speakers and the most notable improvements were in the bass and soundstage. The bass was solid and tight, so much so that I had to turn the bass amp gain down a little to balance out my system. The soundstage is neither forward nor recessed, it is deep and extends several feet behind and in front of the speakers. The width of the sound stage extends beyond the speakers; this is the one area where I felt the Ericsson matched the 6386. If you have a C note to burn I’d plunk it down on a new JJ.

 As far as caps and resale value, if your good enough at soldering to swap them out in the first place you can hold on to the old caps and put them back in later. If you are not confident with soldering, stay away as you’re likely to risk ruining your DAC and voiding any warranty you have left. You can find a good pair of caps for $60 or less. IMHO, caps don’t make a huge difference or “transform” the Havana; they just get out of the way and let whatever qualities you like in a particular tube shine through more clearly. If I only had $108 to spend I would get the 6386. As for me I don’t plan on selling my Havana in the foreseeable future. Happy listening!


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The JJ 6386 has supplanted my reigning favorite, the Ericsson gold pin. Out of the box the 6386’s gave me listener fatigue in 15 minutes, but I heard some things that were very promising. I let them burn in for two days and sat down to listen today. I listened through my speakers and the most notable improvements were in the bass and soundstage. The bass was solid and tight, so much so that I had to turn the bass amp gain down a little to balance out my system. The soundstage is neither forward nor recessed, it is deep and extends several feet behind and in front of the speakers. The width of the sound stage extends beyond the speakers; this is the one area where I felt the Ericsson matched the 6386. If you have a C note to burn I’d plunk it down on a new JJ.

 As far as caps and resale value, if your good enough at soldering to swap them out in the first place you can hold on to the old caps and put them back in later. If you are not confident with soldering, stay away as you’re likely to risk ruining your DAC and voiding any warranty you have left. You can find a good pair of caps for $60 or less. IMHO, caps don’t make a huge difference or “transform” the Havana; they just get out of the way and let whatever qualities you like in a particular tube shine through more clearly. If I only had $108 to spend I would get the 6386. As for me I don’t plan on selling my Havana in the foreseeable future. Happy listening!_

 

Thanks for the JJ's impression. I am keeping in mind of the caps upgrading for now since I am poorer after getting myself a Logitech Harmony 900 Universal Remote Control.

 Ass for the desoldering and resoldering the capacitors, I will pass it to a technician to do the job. I guess any techy who has been handling a solder iron can do the simple job rather than buying a set of solder iron for my shaky hands..


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The JJ 6386 has supplanted my reigning favorite, the Ericsson gold pin. Out of the box the 6386’s gave me listener fatigue in 15 minutes, but I heard some things that were very promising. I let them burn in for two days and sat down to listen today. I listened through my speakers and the most notable improvements were in the bass and soundstage. The bass was solid and tight, so much so that I had to turn the bass amp gain down a little to balance out my system. The soundstage is neither forward nor recessed, it is deep and extends several feet behind and in front of the speakers. The width of the sound stage extends beyond the speakers; this is the one area where I felt the Ericsson matched the 6386. If you have a C note to burn I’d plunk it down on a new JJ._

 

Clearly your experience with the 6386 is the same as mine. 
 Good news IMO, that will give future buyers more confidence.
 Enjoy!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riffle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don’t plan on selling my Havana in the foreseeable future._

 

Now _that's_ worth quoting ...

 Me neither, man.

 Me neither.


----------



## Riffle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Clearly your experience with the 6386 is the same as mine. 
 Good news IMO, that will give future buyers more confidence.
 Enjoy!_

 

I found your review of the JJ to be spot on, it has a better soundstage and better bass than the Ericsson gold pin. I also agree with your comments about the 396A seeming colored in comparison. In my system the 396A has an exaggerated mid range when compared to either the Ericsson or the JJ. I hope/expect to see high end NOS tube prices drop because of the JJ, but time will tell.


----------



## dura

I've just done some experimenting with powercables because I was still not satisfied with the sound. 
 So I removed the powercord, a van den Hul Mainsserver of which the manufacturer says:
  Quote:


 First of all The MAINSSERVER HYBRID’s special Hybrid conductor structure and configuration have been designed to work as an embedded powerline filter.
 This unique built-in filter effectively suppresses high frequency powerline noise (*1) without imposing any current delivery limitations: Unlike conventional powerline filters, The MAINSSERVER HYBRID does not employ any filtering components in series with its AC current path... 
 

I abolutely loved the difference this powercable made with my previous CDP, the Rega Apollo, cleaning up the sound and thereby improving it; a tweak that was its money worth in my system then IMO.
 So I installed in on the Havana without giving it a second though. 

 Compared to the Rega I liked the Havana's natural detail, but the Apollo had a larger soundstage, sounded livelier and projected voices in front of the instruments whereas they blended more with the Havana. 

 You guessed it, today I chanced the Mainsserver for a shielded but otherwise simple straight powercord without any claims about filtering and there was suddenly exactly the sound I was looking for; forward projected voices and more life while still having that lovely natural sound.
 Finally the Havana system is equal or better in all aspects then the Apollo system was.
 The difference was shockingly apparent, somehow the Mainsserver and the Havana are a really very unhappy pairing, the Mainsserver seeming to choke the Havana. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I remember me being so enthousiastic about the Mainsserver that I also bought the high current version, the Mainsstream, for my amp. I returned that one, giving a rather sterile sound.

 I generally hear no worthwhile difference between powercords with comparable simple non-filtering layouts, shielded or not, but the difference between these filtered powercords and other powercords is shockingly large.
 I strongly advice against the Mainsserver as a powercord for the Havana, it is probably that filtering, whatever it is (a braid?). 
 And if you use a powercord with filtering, my advice is to start some simple experiments right away. 
 The Mainsserver is banned to the computer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm Happy I found this out; I was still not 100% convinced I had made a good choice with this DAC. No more doubts now.

 BTW, speaking of powercords, I mentioned this before but if you have a symetrical mainsplug on the powercord, like we got here in the Netherlands, try out both polarities, one side sounds a bit cleaner then the other.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Although I am happy with the JW WE396A tube and Black Rhodium Jazz Super Mains Cable and hands are getting itchy, I pulled the trigger and ordered a pair of V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC for the MHDT Havana.

 I will get in professionally installed and will report the impressions soon.


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Although I am happy with the JW WE396A tube and Black Rhodium Jazz Super Mains Cable and hands are getting itchy, I pulled the trigger and ordered a pair of V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC for the MHDT Havana.

 I will get in professionally installed and will report the impressions soon._

 


 Interesting. May I ask, what problem are you trying to improve?

 And another question, completely, totally off topic; I see you are in Kuala Lumpur, and I intend to go on a 4 week vacation to Malaysia next week, how is the weather there, temperature and rain?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

There's o problem with the stock capacitors. By changing the capacitors, it will change the sound signature as far as I am made to understand. I can't tell how much improvement until the new capacitors are drop into the lovely DAC.

 As for the weather in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, it is unpredictable. Temperature ranging from 26 ~ 32 degree C and occasional rains. Today has been raining for almost the entire day.

 Welcome to Malaysia and hope you enjoy your stay... Cheers.


----------



## dura

Okay, as long as it is not the "grayish voice" mentioned before; that got completely cured in my case by chancing the powercord and the tube.

 Thanks for the update, 26-32C sounds heavenly, it is freezing and snowing here. 
 Really looking forward to it; we are going to make a long trip through the country planning as we go, seeing the cities, monuments, beautiful nature and doing some snorkling and diving.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

There are many blind test and positive review of V-Caps and I hope it will do some justice in enhancing the listening pleasure to another satisfaction level.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

The V-Caps in now being shipping across the Atlantic to my destination and once installed it requires another long process of burn in....


----------



## dura

Amazing, the sensitivity of this DAC to powercables.
 The filtering vd Hul Mainsserver was, as I said before, a very bad combination, robbing the music from live and power. 
 I then tried a shielded unfiltered Audio Agile I had lying around; better, but rather bright and sometimes sharp. 
 A cheap plastic unshielded computer cable sounded likewise, not very pleasant.
 I now have a double Shielded Belden Cable, solidly assembled by a local hifi shop with good plugs for €35,-, a very reasonable price IMO.

 Bingo! Sound now is as dynamic and detailed as I could wish for, tonally balanced and clear but still smooth. I love it, the sound is really beautiful.
 So it seems powercables make a big difference with the Havana at least in my rig, but spending big money is unnecessary.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amazing, the sensitivity of this DAC to powercables.
 The filtering vd Hul Mainsserver was, as I said before, a very bad combination, robbing the music from live and power. 
 I then tried a shielded unfiltered Audio Agile I had lying around; better, but rather bright and sometimes sharp. 
 A cheap plastic unshielded computer cable sounded likewise, not very pleasant.
 I now have a double Shielded Belden Cable, solidly assembled by a local hifi shop with good plugs for €35,-, a very reasonable price IMO.

 Bingo! Sound now is as dynamic and detailed as I could wish for, tonally balanced and clear but still smooth. I love it, the sound is really beautiful.
 So it seems powercables make a big difference with the Havana at least in my rig, but spending big money is unnecessary._

 

I also found it to be somewhat responsive to power cord changes. I tested an Iron Lung Jelly Fish, and Audio Arts Power 1 Furtech and a Black Sands Violet and ended up liking the Violet cord the best.

 As a matter of comparison, and using the same cords, I could find no real audible difference between them when applying the same listening tests to my Raptor tube amp ... 

 But on the Havana, the Black Sands Violet cord is outstanding ... very smooth, balanced between frequencies and detailed ... the Jellyfish cord was also pretty nice sounding but lacked some of the dynamics of the Violet ... and the Power 1 was just to "loud/hot" sounding ... didn't sound bad, but was just too "in your face" sounding (it now resides on my Raptor amp).


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

The V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC are soldered on my Havana now. Immediate improvements on bigger soundstage, focused midrange and tighter bass can be heard during the last 10 hours burn in period. The volume knob needs to be cranked up 2 additional clicks for now and probably the caps are not broken in yet. Overall satisfactory with the money spent. Can't wait till it reaches 100, 200, 300, 400 & 500 hours of burn in..


----------



## _Vetal_

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC are soldered on my Havana now. Immediate improvements on bigger soundstage, focused midrange and tighter bass can be heard during the last 10 hours burn in period. The volume knob needs to be cranked up 2 additional clicks for now and probably the caps are not broken in yet. Overall satisfactory with the money spent. Can't wait till it reaches 100, 200, 300, 400 & 500 hours of burn in.._

 

Can you make a photo of your Havana with V-Cap's? I want same too


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *_Vetal_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you make a photo of your Havana with V-Cap's? I want same too
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you scroll back to page 49 and look at the post # 728 & 735, there is a visual of V-Cap fitted in a Paradisea. I will try to snap some photos during the weekend.


----------



## _Vetal_

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you scroll back to page 49 and look at the post # 728 & 735, there is a visual of V-Cap fitted in a Paradisea. I will try to snap some photos during the weekend._

 

Thank's!
 Actually, in Havana detail loss too or not?


----------



## dura

Tempting, but no, not now, at the moment I'm completely happy with my Havana (I described the sound elsewhere as "being in a warm bath drinking a glass of superb vintage port in honeycoloured light").
 Again, the powercable is important for the soudsignature, and I'm very satisfied with the JJ6386 tube. It sound cleaner then my JE WE396E but till maintains that lovely golden sound.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC are soldered on my Havana now. Immediate improvements on bigger soundstage, focused midrange and tighter bass can be heard during the last 10 hours burn in period. The volume knob needs to be cranked up 2 additional clicks for now and probably the caps are not broken in yet. Overall satisfactory with the money spent. Can't wait till it reaches 100, 200, 300, 400 & 500 hours of burn in.._

 

Glad you like the changes, as do I. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 In addition to the above, I suspect you will hear greater transparency and smoother vocals as the caps break in. At least I do, with the Jupiter caps.

 Despite the skepticism voiced by some, I find the improvements equal to or greater than those of power cord and tube swaps. 

 I've tried a Black Sands Violet Z1, a Violet ZII and a Kaplan PC. All are good, the latter is best (IMS) giving increased weight and dynamics.

 I've tried an RCA 5670, a Bendix Red Label 2C51, a '50s WE 396A, and an Ericcson gold pin 2C51. All have various strengths, with the last two being my favorites. Interestingly, I've found the differences between them reduced since I changed the caps.


----------



## classfolkphile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *_Vetal_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank's!
 Actually, in Havana detail loss too or not?_

 

Increased resolution with the Jupiter caps. Can't speak for the V-caps, although I'd be surprised if it weren't true for them as well.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC are soldered on my Havana now. Immediate improvements on bigger soundstage, focused midrange and tighter bass can be heard during the last 10 hours burn in period. The volume knob needs to be cranked up 2 additional clicks for now and probably the caps are not broken in yet. Overall satisfactory with the money spent. Can't wait till it reaches 100, 200, 300, 400 & 500 hours of burn in.._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Increased resolution with the Jupiter caps. Can't speak for the V-caps, although I'd be surprised if it weren't true for them as well._

 

Come on guys, since you can't go back and compare it to the stock set up, you are making statements that rely on what you think you remember it sounded like. That's pretty far from anything conclusive.

 Now factor in the effort it took to make the change and your expectations of how much better it was going to sound with the new caps. So of course you're going to think it sounds better.

 While this tweak may or may not have improved the over all sound of the Havana, you would need a direct comparison to be sure. And it would be even better if you didn't know which one you were listening to while you made your comparisons, so 'that knowledge' wouldn't prejudice your judgment.

 And BTW, have you noticed that almost every tweak is claimed to provide an increased sound stage and increased resolution?

 USG


----------



## DarKu

@*upstateguy* there are tons of impressions over the net about the capacitors and *sonical* differences between them, this is not snake oil like your avatar say, it is true and can be easily heard. I modded my Havana with Jupiter caps today and also put a hi-fi tunnig fuse, the difference betweeen what i had and now is stunning, also my wife told me she likes the havana a lot more now because voices and others instruments just sound more clear and real (she listens a lot of jazz and choral)
 I'm sure now, i will never let go my Havana. Soon i will compare it to the newest Emm Labs DAC2 (~10.000 USD) to see how it compares.


----------



## dura

@upstateguy

 The same goes for you; you weren't there, haven't heart what the modders heart and yet you are quick to explain the perceived differences as selfdeception? 
 I find that unrespectful.

 Yes, I know psychological phenomena exists, in fact I should know it very well since I have an MD psychology and have read literally thousand of pages about related research.
 But the fact that humans lack a reliable acoustic "nullbase" doesn't necessarely mean attributing perceived differences to psychological factors is always or even often correct. 

 Asking that people get themselve an extra unmodded Havana to satisfy your scientific demands is not realistic. 

 Extra food for thought: 
 1) the fact that sometimes DBT do not show differences is no conclusive proof either; let people drink warm beer out of plastic cups on a monday morning and you can "proof" all beer taste the same. 
 There is a time and place related to optimal perceiving. which can be scientifically proved by measuring brainwaves; in DBT people will verly likely show mostly beta waves, alert but not concentrated. 
 People enjoying music will usually show alfa waves (depending on the sort of music), relaxed yet utterly concentrated.
 2) how big is the difference between handsome and ugly? A little chance in sound, measured in distortion, f.i. the removal of a small 'edge' in treble can mean the difference between fatigue and enjoyment., a very big subjective difference. People are often able to perceive and value these small difference in optimal circumstances, which are usually not testsettings.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@upstateguy
 I find that unrespectful._

 

Unrespectful my arse.
 It is commendable to be critical and skeptical. 
 It's a trait that some of the smartest people posses.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I don't have the luxury to have 2 Havanas side by side to do a blind test. However recalling from listening memory of the favorite songs, I can tell the differences are awesome. "Voices and others instruments just sound more clear and real" I second this statement. Resolution and clarity improves, soundstage is wider and I love tight low bass....

 I would consider this as a cheap tweak for those at stateside and it may be a small fortune for Asian like me to have this done. Try rolling some capacitors and if you if you find not your kind of taste just replace the stock caps....

 I also agree that every capacitors have their unique sonic differences. Get the one you like... The Havana is now a keeper.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*.....I'm sure now, i will never let go my Havana.....*
_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*..... The Havana is now a keeper.*
_

 

Hey, this is Head Fi guys, it's only a matter of time before you move on to the next "keeper"..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*.....Asking that people get themselve an extra unmodded Havana to satisfy your scientific demands is not realistic. *
_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*I don't have the luxury to have 2 Havanas side by side to do a blind test. *
_

 

I'm not suggesting anyone buy an extra Havana. 

 I am suggesting, however, that without one you don't have a basis for some of the statements you are making regarding the degree of improvement your cap tweak makes.

 I have no doubt that different caps can have different sound signatures, but unlike tube rolling, you can't go back and forth a few times to evaluate their relative sound signatures. This leaves you with nothing more than what you think you remember it used to sound like, compounded by the psychological phenomena we've already discussed.... pretty thin ice to be walking on.

 And I don't even want to talk about fuses and power cords.

 USG


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I am loving the Havana more with the V-Cap upgrades. Some may say it is placebo but it indeeds enhance my listening experience. I am satisfied with the money spent.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am loving the Havana more with the V-Cap upgrades. Some may say it is placebo but it indeeds enhance my listening experience. I am satisfied with the money spent._

 

Good for you, man. Placebo or not ... it's about having fun, no? So fewk the naysayers, eh?

 (that said, I _do agree_ that criticism is central to any real discovery, as stated by someone above, but here, I think _fun_ is the more more important factor)






 BTW, did you solder them yourself? Or did you get somebody else to do it? I'm thinking of modding my own Havana some time soon but I have zero soldering skills and I'm not about to try it.

 Any details regarding the process would be appreciated.

 Best.

 .joel


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good for you, man. Placebo or not ... it's about having fun, no? So fewk the naysayers, eh?

 (that said, I do agree that criticism is central to any real discovery, as stated by someone above, but here, I think fun is the more more important factor)






 BTW, did you solder them yourself? Or did you get somebody else to do it? I'm thinking of modding my own Havana some time soon but I have zero soldering skills and I'm not about to try it.

 Any details regarding the process would be appreciated.

 Best.

 .joel_

 

I did the soldering myself, it was pretty easy though. Just desolder the stock caps, clean the solder points with rubbing alcohol and re-solder the new caps. I took more time dismantling the PCB from the case than the desoldering and resoldering the caps. Take you time and you should enjoy the changes...


----------



## BAHADIRXIHSAN

Hi
 I want to send to a friend a Havana Dac as a gift.
 He is living in London.I will order directly from the manufacturer.
 Do you know if he has to pay any import tax.?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BAHADIRXIHSAN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi
 I want to send to a friend a Havana Dac as a gift.
 He is living in London.I will order directly from the manufacturer.
 Do you know if he has to pay any import tax.?_

 

Can I be your friend?

 (LOL).

 Okay, seriously ...

 No. I have no idea about the import tax.

 But seriously, ... can I be your friend?


----------



## dura

You already got one, Joel.
 Yes, you have to pay tax, however, MHDT values the DAC as $150,- so in the Netherlands I only paid about €45,- total.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am loving the Havana more with the V-Cap upgrades. *Some may say it is placebo *but it indeeds enhance my listening experience. I am satisfied with the money spent._

 

I think all I said was that without a stock unit to compare it to, you don't have a basis for comparison, and all you're left with is the fading memory of what you think you remember it used to sound like...

 This, of course, has nothing to do with the enjoyment of modding a DAC yourself or the enjoyment of listening to music with it.

 USG


----------



## BAHADIRXIHSAN

Thank you very much for your answers about the import tax
 I wish I could afford more friends -))


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

My Havana is now fitted with JW WE396, Hifi Tuning Fuse and V-Cap OIMP output capacitors. I came across somewhere the input capacitor are replaced with V-Cap .01uf TFTF 
 Reference grade audio capacitors and wonder what improvements to be expected...

 This is now on my wishlist.


----------



## classfolkphile

The stock input caps are rated for 1000V. The V-caps are only rated for 600V. Not a good idea.

 I've also been thinking about changing those caps, being so impressed with the output cap upgrade. There's also a single cap (.22uf/600V) right behind the two input ones. I don't know what it does but it seems significant given its position and singularity. I'm looking at Jensen copper foils ($25. list each) for the two, and another Jupiter HT ($36. list) for the single. They are the same sizes as the stock caps.

 It seems like the move.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The stock input caps are rated for 1000V. The V-caps are only rated for 600V. Not a good idea.

 I've also been thinking about changing those caps, being so impressed with the output cap upgrade. There's also a single cap (.22uf/600V) right behind the two input ones. I don't know what it does but it seems significant given its position and singularity. I'm looking at Jensen copper foils ($25. list each) for the two, and another Jupiter HT ($36. list) for the single. They are the same sizes as the stock caps.

 It seems like the move._

 

It is interesting. Awaiting your tryout and will follow if the outcome is positive. Keep us posted.


----------



## Weez

In the near future I’m thinking of doing a serious DAC upgrade and the Havana DAC is probably something for me. I was looking at Stello DA100 as well but a review made me think twice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, I have Grado RS1 and from what I’ve read I’m sure the DAC will sound awesome with them, but do you think it well sound as good through my speakers (B&W CM1)? I’m using my computer as a source (I know, not the best source, but it’s less hassel to have your music collection digitalized).

 Speaker set-up:

*ESI Juli@ (Analog output) *--> *ARAGON Ground Loop Isolator *--> *QED Performance Audio 1 cable (Analog)* --> *Herman Kardon HK980* -–> *B&W CM1 and a Velodyne MiniVee SPL-800i subwoofer
*

 Headphone set-up:

*Belkin PureAV USB* --> *Keces DA-151 *--> *QED Qunex 4S cable (Analog) *--> *Little-Dot MKIII* --> *Grado RS1*

 So, I’m thinking of this set-up:

*M2Tech hiFace* ---> *Coax* (or BNC if it’s possible to have that installed on the Havana DAC. A BNC/RCA adapter is another option and most likely cheaper ^.^) --> *Mdt Labs Havana* --> *QED Qunex 4S cable (Analog)* --> *Little-Dot MKIII* (I will upgrade to Mapletree Ear+ HD Super Headphone Amplifier later down the road) for headphone usage and just switch analog cables when I decide to use my speakers.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the near future I’m thinking of doing a serious DAC upgrade and the Havana DAC is probably something for me. I was looking at Stello DA100 as well but a review made me think twice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I have Grado RS1 and from what I’ve read I’m sure the DAC will sound awesome with them, but do you think it well sound as good through my speakers (B&W CM1)? I’m using my computer as a source (I know, not the best source, but it’s comfortable to have everything digital).

 Speaker set-up:
*ESI Juli@ (Analog output) *--> *ARAGON Ground Loop Isolator *--> *QED Performance Audio 1 cable* --> *Herman Kardon HK980* -–> *2x B&W CM1 and a Velodyne MiniVee SPL-800i subwoofer
*

 Headphone set-up:
*Belkin PureAV USB* --> *Keces DA-151 *--> *QED Qunex 4S cable *--> *Little-Dot MKIII*

 So, I’m thinking of this set-up:
*M2Tech hiFace* ---> *Coax cable *(or BNC if it’s possible to have that installed on the Havana DAC, a BNC/RCA adapter is another option) --> *Mdt Labs Havana* --> *QED Qunex 4S cable (Analog)* --> *Little-Dot MKIII* (I will upgrade Mapletree Ear+ HD Super Headphone Amplifier later down the road) for headphone usage and just switch analog cables to QED Performance Audio 1 cable which connected to my stereo amplifier etc when I decide to use my speakers._

 

The Havana and RS1's are a match made in heaven. 

 Also, it should be phenomenal with your speakers as well. In fact, just about all the major online Havana reviews (Positive Feedback, etc.) have been done with speaker rigs.

 Go for it.


----------



## classfolkphile

Of course only someone with your identical equipment can offer an accurate assessment, and only you can really decide that question. 

 However, FWIW, I primarily use my Havana with speakers. It sounds wonderful and bests many much more expensive digital rigs I've had. I should state that I've finally realized that I dislike up-sampling DACs (which is what I've owned over the last several years, up until recently). I now own the NOS Havana and an oversampling DAC (with selectable/defeatable up-sampling).


----------



## Weez

Okey, I didn’t know that : o Thanks for the link, just what I’ve been looking for! It will however probably make me crave the DAC to an unbearable level haha! : )

 Yeah, obviously. But I’m not looking for a super accurate answer, just some opinions and thoughts, which I got : ) For some dumb reason I saw Havana as a headphone DAC, a DAC is a DAC haha…^^


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Believe it or not..., merely 250 hours with the V-Cap OIMP caps seated in the Havana, I am hearing more details, bigger soundstage and much lower bass than the stock caps. No regrets with this caps upgrade.

 classfolkphile, have you replace the input caps? Awaiting your feedback before me moving into the next mod...


----------



## dura

I believe it! 
 BTW, your country is lovely. Right now I'm on Cenang beach, Langkawi, fantastic place place to spent a winter month. Before, I was among other places in the Taman Negara, impressive!
 I hate to have to go back home next week, only thing I'm really looking forward too is enjoying the dark chocolate sound of the Havana.

 @Weez: I use the Havana in a speakerbased system, it is perfectly suited for that. Some Dacs add volume or headphone out or crossfeed, and those are more headphone-oriented, but the Havana is a DAC only, no added features,


----------



## classfolkphile

Not yet. I'm in the middle of a gut kitchen renovation, which is pretty distracting. I'm also hoping Parts Connexions starts another sale soon.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Believe it or not..., merely *250 hours* with the V-Cap OIMP caps seated in the Havana, I am hearing *more details*, *bigger soundstage* and *much lower bass* than the stock caps. No regrets with this caps upgrade.

 classfolkphile, have you replace the input caps? Awaiting your feedback before me moving into the next mod..._

 

Hi OutdoorXplorer

 I don't mean any disrespect but it seems that you're basing your impressions an auditory memory of something you experienced weeks ago. I don't see any way you might verify that these improvements really exist, like you can with tube rolling.

 And, don't you find it curious that the improvements you mentioned, details, sound stage and bass, are the exact same improvements that every other tweak or upgrade claims to provide?

 Could it be that you thought _'V-Caps'_ would give you these types of improvements and that's why you installed them?

 No criticism, just not very scientific, or factual. <shrugs shoulders>

 USG


----------



## dura

@ upstateguy:Why is it that you do have to question what ODE writes that gives you so much reason for scepsis while these forums are filled with hundred thousands of posts claiming to hear differences between all kinds of components/over time (often by memory, almost never with any scientific backup)?

 You discourage people to give their observations, which I for one like to read.

 We know your opion now, and if it wasn't for you and my scientific MD I would still be in the darkness. 
 But I'm not, and I'm adult enough to judge the value of what I read myself and so I think are the other Havana afficionado's here, so please stop pointing out the obvious 'no scientific proof'.


----------



## Marc303

Dura, I have one of these DACs and I find it sounds "fine", nothing amazing yet nothing bad. As I've already stated in this thread,when I A/B testd it, it sounded identical to a £1000 Primare CD21 CD player. (which is no big deal as my Xbox 360 once level matched, also sounded identical too) 

 This thread is 54 pages long of people swapping this and that out of the DACs internals and every single mod improves warmth/width/bass/seperation. 

 I have a pretty revealing system (£12k+ of Classé Audio/Modwright/Dali amp/speakers and room treatment) and I can't hear these improvements on the simple mods I've done. I'm not even sure I can hear a difference when I swap the valve with a different type. No matter what I do it still sounds the same as the CD21.

 What I'm trying to say here without being rude is that if you start on a fully modded DAC, with all the posh valves/caps/phono plugs etc, all connected and then started to reverse mod it back to stock. Each mod is taking away the sounds warm/stereo image width/detail etc ..So by the time you got back to the original unit it would be have to sound like a mono device capable of playing the same frequency range as the average land line telephone.

 Some mods may work slightly, though I really doubt they are anything worth posting about.


----------



## dura

I completely agree Marc.
 More often then not differences are not for the better, and/or minor and/or caused by wishful thinking/more attentive listening. 

 My point is, I still like to read about it, sometimes try out something for myself that seem like a good idea, and sometimes they are, sometimes they are not, that's life.
 But I'm adult enough not to take everything I read on the internet for granted. 
 On the other hand, I love to read about gear I'm interested in, even if the statements made are not always dependable.

 Now imagine the other extreme: no statement is allowed unless solidly backed up by DBT and objective measurements. You could probably read everything on Head-fi in half day, this place (and the whole internet) would be completely barren and probably not even exist, no subjective reviews elsewhere of the Havana would exist either (which I found very usable and in hindsight matching my own experience). 
 Not a desirable situation IMO, like a library only having bona fide declared masterpieces and thereby being reduced to a single bookshell.

 So my proposal is to allow people to make subjective judgements if they want, without every post being followed by demands of objective evidence. 
 And if someone really wants objective evidence, simple, let him look elshewhere, start a new thread or forum, or best of all, let him buy a Havana, measure, test and post about it; I'll be happy to read those posts.


----------



## twylight

If you really like your havana - ditch headphones and go back to speakers - headphones made me realize I like music alot still - so I had some custom speakers built...Im selling off headphones, but the havana stays.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

You guys may not agree on the improvement that I am hearing now but I am satisfy with the money spent for the additional details and clarity which I have been hearing since I swapped the output capacitors. This is no placebo and I know it is subjective argument but at least I have done the modding which is sweet to my hears...

 I believed every mod has it cause and effect...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys may not agree on the improvement that I am hearing now but I am satisfy with the money spent for the additional details and clarity which I have been hearing since I swapped the output capacitors. This is no placebo and I know it is subjective argument but at least I have done the modding which is sweet to my hears...

 I believed every mod has it cause and effect..._

 

I, for one, agree.

 Why do you think popular amp builders like Woo and others charge extra for "boutique" parts (caps, tubes, etc.) ??

 Cause "boutique" parts make a real difference, yo!

 It affects the sound, you dumb chodes!

 I find it hilarious that folks would question the very thing that allows amp builders (*all* amp builders) to price their products more highly against the next, or, at the very least, their standard offering of such sonic hardware ... 

 Various parts make a difference ...

 Boutique elements too.

 Get over it if your not in agreement.

 We will understand.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I, for one, agree.

 Why do you think popular amp builders like Woo and others charge extra for "boutique" parts (caps, tubes, etc.) ??

 Cause "boutique" parts make a real difference, yo!

 It affects the sound, you dumb chodes!

 I find it hilarious that folks would question the very thing that allows amp builders (*all* amp builders) to price their products more highly against the next, or, at the very least, their standard offering of such sonic hardware ... 

 Various parts make a difference ...

 Boutique elements too.

 Get over it if your not in agreement.

 We will understand.




_

 

TQ for the +ve & constructive feedback... This will suppress the queries raised by some in earlier post..


----------



## pdhanwada

It seems they are out of stock. May be we need to buy from the website. Is it safe to do so.

 Any of you have teh experiance of doing so.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems they are out of stock. May be we need to buy from the website. Is it safe to do so.

 Any of you have teh experiance of doing so.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

Email the MHDT Lab guys directly ...

mhdtgang@yahoo.com

 Tell them "s1rrah" sent you ... 

 I'm sure they will be happy to oblige (but cut 'em some slack, their english is not very good; but they are troopers nonetheless!).


----------



## pdhanwada

I emailed yesterday. They havent replied me yet.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I emailed yesterday. They havent replied me yet._

 

Patience, padawan ... patience ...


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Patience, padawan ... patience ..._

 

You are right, before the 23rd February is it practically impossible to contact them because the Chinese New Year's celebrations. Two weeks ago, I have also tried to reach them without reply.

 "Padawan"??? Wow, he must be really very young!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are right, before the 23rd February is it practically impossible to contact them because the Chinese New Year's celebrations. Two weeks ago, I have also tried to reach them without reply.

 "Padawan"??? Wow, he must be really very young! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL. It's a Star Wars(tm) thing ...

 yes. Chinese New Year is jacking everything up these days ... including the ship date for my S.Flo 2 portable ... I'm on the Feb. wait list ... 

 Funny also cause I live in Houston's most prominent China Town area ... 

 I love it, even if I have to wait for delayed shipping.

 Pho soup. Udon. Sushi. Ramen noodles?

 There's something for everyone here in Houston's chinatown ...

 Here's a handy link:

History of Houston Chinatown


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Funny also cause I live in Houston's most prominent China Town area ... I love it, even if I have to wait for delayed shipping.

 Pho soup. Udon. Sushi. Ramen noodles?
 There's something for everyone here in Houston's chinatown ...

 Here's a handy link: History of Houston Chinatown_

 

Thank you for the information, I did not know that the Chinese community is so large in Houston. I can imagine what's going on this days there. You are very lucky!


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Greetings from Malaysia to all Chinese Head Fi community and members...

 HAPPY CHINESE NEW YEAR!!


----------



## pdhanwada

Hello guys,


 Just now ordered MHDT HAVANA on the ebay site. I should get it in next few days.

 Few clarifications.

 1. Power cord. This is not supplied by MHDT by default. Is it nessacary to get it from them. I have one power cable which was used for a computer. Cant I use it.

 2. Usb cable . How important is that be bought from MHDT. 

 3. What tube is the best and where can I buy them.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Welcome to the CLUB.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello guys,


 Just now ordered MHDT HAVANA on the ebay site. I should get it in next few days.

 Few clarifications.

 1. Power cord. This is not supplied by MHDT by default. Is it nessacary to get it from them. I have one power cable which was used for a computer. Cant I use it.

Temporarily is OK to have the computer's power cord. You may wanna have a aftermarket or DIY power cable at later time.

 2. Usb cable . How important is that be bought from MHDT. 

Their USB Cable quality is made and tested for their product as far I know. QC should be better than those made for PC.

 3. What tube is the best and where can I buy them.
Many chose JW WE396A or WE396A made during the 50s. I have a pair to let go though.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu_


----------



## pdhanwada

Mine is a complicated case.

 Panasonic 110 disc changer ( transport)

 B&K ref30 Preamp
 B&K 7270 AMP(7 X 200W)
 Paradigm S4/C3 Signature speakers.
 REL strata subwoofer

 On top of that I run everything in India and all the equipment was bought in USA. 

 Our Mains voltage is 220V where as all the equipment needs 110 Volts as input.

 I have a step down transformer upstream which has 2.5 KW capacity.

 220 V --> stabilizer --> step down transformer --> All the Audio equipment. 

 With so many power modifiers upstream probably some amount of inaccuracies already introduced in the power at the source itself. In addition to that I am not sure about the cleanliness of the power at the source here in India, It could very well be have been disturbed. Owing to all this should we really care for clean power at the end of the stream.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine is a complicated case.

 Panasonic 110 disc changer ( transport)

 B&K ref30 Preamp
 B&K 7270 AMP(7 X 200W)
 Paradigm S4/C3 Signature speakers.
 REL strata subwoofer

 On top of that I run everything in India and all the equipment was bought in USA. 

 Our Mains voltage is 220V where as all the equipment needs 110 Volts as input.

 I have a step down transformer upstream which has 2.5 KW capacity.

 220 V --> stabilizer --> step down transformer --> All the Audio equipment. 

 With so many power modifiers upstream probably some amount of inaccuracies already introduced in the power at the source itself. In addition to that I am not sure about the cleanliness of the power at the source here in India, It could very well be have been disturbed. Owing to all this should we really care for clean power at the end of the stream.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

I guess a better power cable is needed in this scenario. Perhaps a Zu Cable from eBay is justifiable or Supra Power Cable...


----------



## dura

Complex system, with the voltage conversion.
 As you might have read some pages ago, my experience is that the Havana is unusually sensitive to power cables. 
 One cable in my system gave unattractive, lifeless sound, another cable gave a nice full bass and a large sound stage.
 The good news is, the best sounding cable in my system was also the cheapest, a Belden based cable made by a local shop and sold for €35,- or so. 
 How it will turn out in your system I don't know, but if the Havana sound is not to your satisfaction, remember to experiment with the powercords.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On top of that I run everything in India and all the equipment was bought in USA. Our Mains voltage is 220V where as all the equipment needs 110 Volts as input. I have a step down transformer upstream which has 2,5 kW capacity.

 220 V --> stabilizer --> step down transformer --> All the Audio equipment. 

 With so many power modifiers upstream probably some amount of inaccuracies already introduced in the power at the source itself. In addition to that, I am not sure about the cleanliness of the power at the source here in India, It could very well be have been disturbed. *Owing to all this should we really care for clean power at the end of the stream.*_

 

You are right, under this circumstances is it strongly recommended to move your audio equipment as a whole to Taiwan. There are 110 VAC / 60 Hz, very stable and clean without undesirable transients in the power network. All you have to do than is to change the connectors of your power cords, that's it. No stabiliser, no step down transformer, only pure enjoyment. Think about it!


----------



## ciphercomplete

I can't wait for this weekend. A friend and I are going to swap DACS for a week -- he gets my Monarchy and I get to try the Havana. I can't wait to hear it in my system.


----------



## pdhanwada

Hello All,

 Should Havana be switched on always. What is the life of the TUBES. I am new to the tube world. What are the precautions we need to take for tubes life.

 LEt me know.
 Pandu


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello All,

 Should Havana be switched on always. What is the life of the TUBES. I am new to the tube world. What are the precautions we need to take for tubes life.

 LEt me know.
 Pandu_

 

I turn mine off when not using it ... simply to prolong the life of my fairly expensive tube (1950's JW 396A) ...

 I don't think the current to the tube stage is very high, though and so I'd figure the tube would last for a very long time, even if playing non stop (6 to 8 years?).

 Can anybody else clarify? I'm just kind of guessing ...


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I turn mine off when not using it ... simply to prolong the life of my fairly expensive tube (1950's JW 396A) ...

 I don't think the current to the tube stage is very high, though and so I'd figure the tube would last for a very long time, even if playing non stop (6 to 8 years?).

 Can anybody else clarify? I'm just kind of guessing ..._

 

I remembered read in earlier post, keeping the DAC power on indefinitely will not kill the tube as it only the tube only draws little current through it... Well, to be on the safe side, I do keep it off when not in use.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Now imagine the other extreme: no statement is allowed unless solidly backed up by DBT and objective measurements. 
_

 

Certainly would eliminate a massive amount of BS. 

 USG


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Certainly would eliminate a massive amount of BS. 

 USG_

 

A/B'ing isn't the best way to distinguish subtle audio details. I've always found that long term listening revealed differences that simple DBT didn't.

 I won't get into this argument (regardless of your or anyone's reply) because I spent countless hours over a span of years with a lot of equipment to come to the conclusion that I did.

 Back on topic: I tried the MHDT Havana last weekend and I found it had an enjoyable non-fatiguing (forgiving) sound signature to it. I was partly expecting uncontrolled bass (relative to SS DACs) but I found this was not the case at all. Surprisingly, the soundstage (which I thought was a forte of tubes) was not as deep as the Parasound/y2/Pico that I heard side-by-side.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ...I spent countless hours over a span of years with a lot of equipment to come to the conclusion that I did.
_

 

That's what the UFO guys say, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A/B'ing isn't the best way to distinguish subtle audio details. I've always found that long term listening revealed differences that simple DBT didn't.

 I won't get into this argument (regardless of your or anyone's reply) because I spent countless hours over a span of years with a lot of equipment to come to the conclusion that I did.

 Back on topic: I tried the MHDT Havana last weekend and I found it had an enjoyable non-fatiguing (forgiving) sound signature to it. I was partly expecting uncontrolled bass (relative to SS DACs) but I found this was not the case at all. Surprisingly, the soundstage (which I thought was a forte of tubes) was not as deep as the Parasound/y2/Pico that I heard side-by-side._

 

I agree about the A/B; the brain is then usually in Beta-state (normal state, rather concentrated but chaotic), while it is in Alfa (in rest yet very concentrated on one thing) when listening to music uninterupted for longer then say 20 minutes. Alfa is the way to enjoy music, and audio equipment should be judged in that state. 

 The Havana soundstage is IMO different then that of more analytical DAC's.
 Recently I tried the Meier Stagedac and it had incredible depth, and every instrument had it's place from left to right. (wasn't to my taste though, not warm and no realistic tonal colors).
 In contrast the Havana soundstage is more like a life event; everything is discrete but not separated in place; rather the voice is a big central ball, the bass is the fundament near the floor, backchoirs are like the backwall, no pinpointing in width or depth.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what the UFO guys say, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

LOL.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*Alfa is the way to enjoy music, and audio equipment should be judged in that state. *
_

 


 My understanding is that in an alpha-meditative state, you may hear the music but you're not really "listening" to it and therefore by definition, you are not making any judgments. In this state, you are not aware of audio quality.

 Once you start to pay attention to the quality of what you're listening to (type of music, treble, bass, instrument location, lyrics, vocal timber, soundstage, etc) your brain waves speed up and you move into a beta state.

 USG


----------



## s1rrah

I've always been a Theta Wave sort of guy, myself ... but that's just me.



 I mean c'mon ... we can't *all* be masters of astral projection, now can we?

 (quietly laughing)


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Havana soundstage is IMO different then that of more analytical DAC's.
 Recently I tried the Meier Stagedac and it had incredible depth, and every instrument had it's place from left to right. (wasn't to my taste though, not warm and no realistic tonal colors).
 In contrast the Havana soundstage is more like a life event; everything is discrete but not separated in place; rather the voice is a big central ball, the bass is the fundament near the floor, backchoirs are like the backwall, no pinpointing in width or depth._

 

So the Havana is more distorted than the Meier and you personally prefer the added distortion.


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Speederlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the Havana is more distorted than the Meier and you personally prefer the added distortion._

 

What a friendly formulated conclusion.

 No, that is not the way I perceive it. 
 The Stagedac's representation of voices and instruments is unnatural to my ears, while the Havana does very well in representing the characteristic sounds of different instrumens and voices.

 It seems more a matter of taste; some like an analytical sound, but to my ears that is listening to a system with not enough energy; then the images get small and can be better pinpointed .
 I like more energetic systems, the images are larger and therefore less seperated. 
 I perceive the same thing when I listen to real music life performed.


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a friendly formulated conclusion.

 No, that is not the way I perceive it. 
 The Stagedac's representation of voices and instruments is unnatural to my ears, while the Havana does very well in representing the characteristic sounds of different instrumens and voices.

 It seems more a matter of taste; some like an analytical sound, but to my ears that is listening to a system with not enough energy; then the images get small and can be better pinpointed .
 I like more energetic systems, the images are larger and therefore less seperated. 
 I perceive the same thing when I listen to real music life performed._

 

How does "analytical" = "not enough energy"? I understand you say to your ears this is the case, but can you explain how?
 By "larger images" do you mean more smeared out across the spectrum? That seems like distortion to me. I am unsure how a "more energetic" system means you have larger images unless its nothing more than blurring the sound and reducing accuracy via added distortion, while increasing the energy at frequencies different than and in addition to those originally in the recording.

 Again, I don't doubt this is pleasant to some people (or many people). I mean, distorted guitars are pleasant to many, but the distortion there is the original intended sound. In this case, aren't you distorting the original analytical signal (even if that signal is of distorted guitars) in a way that is pleasant to the listener? If so, that's fine, but it's added distortion for euphonious effect nonetheless.

 And please don't take this as a challenge or attempt to make a point at your expense. It's neither. 

 Sorry for the slightly off-topic, I'll back this off from this thread now, but it seems relevant for a NOS DAC with a tube output where a lot of people are talking about similar experiences.


----------



## dura

Okay, no offense taken.
 I'll try to explain what I mean with some slightly offtopic examples.
 Last week I was in a jazzclub, not a very large space (60-80 m20), the sax, drums and piano were unamplified. 
 Looking, it was easy to couple instrument to location. 
 However, when I closed my eyes, each instrument seemed to fill the whole soundstage.

 I attribute this to the raw power of instruments, the image gets so large is fills the whole soundstage, yet is clearly distinctive from other instruments. Pinpointing is clearly not the only way to distinguish instuments (easy to hear when listening to a mono recording).

 Last year I had some silver LS-cables on audition; these cables were very thin, about 0.5mm across, too thin to transfer the power from my amp to my speakers. 
 The result was perfectly formed miniature images, clearly distinct in space because they were so small; great for analysing, but not at all sounding like real music.

 So this is how I connect energy and soundstage, more energy gives larger images overlaying each other, smaller images are more discrete.

 Now what is more distorted? IMO larger images are closer to music in reality.

 Edit: this on my -speakerbased- system (see sign) compared to other sources.


----------



## ciphercomplete

I am demoing my friends Havana right now and I have to say that I agree with Dura's comments. It is less precise than most DACs/CDPs that I have heard in the $1k + range. 

 Let me clarify the last sentence. The Havana is probably my favorite DAC for low level listening and its only when I turn the volume up that its slight lack of precision becomes apparent. Now mind you I am evaluating it in a speaker system where the acoustics of the room come into play. To that end, if you are using it to source a headphone amp you will never hear what I am talking about. The Havana starts off a little behind in the precision area and once the acoustics of the room, most notably sound reflections, come into play at a certain volume level it really exacerbates the issue. I am in the process of having my room evaluated for its acoustics and after I am finished I will demo the Havana again and I won't be surprised if it convinces me to sell whatever DAC i am using at that moment.

 Its lack of precision (warmth) is a plus in analytic or dry systems. Its probably the perfect DAC for AKGs, Grados and based on its description the HD800.

 READ: The lack of precision is absolutely not a bad thing. As Dura states -- it sounds more real and more natural. So as in all things let your preferences decide. If you are a precision, detail nut then buy a Benchmark DAC. If you prefer emotional depth with a little warmth like I do and don't mind sacrificing a small bit of precision then THIS IS YOUR DAC seriously. I was able to push my speakers farther apart without losing warmth with it as my source --physically widening my soundstage. Other DACs become too cold the farther I push my speakers apart.

 ALSO READ: (lol) Precision is not equal to detail because the Havana can do detail quite well. What we are talking about her is soundstage placement.

 One of the things I am a little disappointed about is dynamics. I had heard that NOS DACs are supposed to be dynamics dynamos so to speak but to me the Havana comes in fourth behind the Monarchy NM24, Decware ZCD, Stello DA220 - the sources I have heard in my system in terms of dynamics. Perhaps I took a comment on Pacific Valves website regard NOS DACs a little to far though.


----------



## DarKu

@*ciphercomplete* did you auditioned the Havana with a JW WE396A/ JJ6386 tube, or with the stock one? Cos stock one sounds exactly how you say, however WE tube in my system sounds very dynamic with good impact/tone and coherency


----------



## ciphercomplete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@*ciphercomplete* did you auditioned the Havana with a JW WE396A/ JJ6386 tube, or with the stock one? Cos stock one sounds exactly how you say, however WE tube in my system sounds very dynamic with good impact/tone and coherency_

 

You know I never asked my friend which tube he has in there. I'll pull it out later today and see which one it is.


----------



## ciphercomplete

Yep, its the stock tube. I don't know man, the stock tube is no slouch. 

 I hope my earlier post wasn't taken as a slam on Havana's dynamics. It is extremely dynamic, I just expected to crush the Decware and Monarchy in that area.


----------



## dura

Something more about the soundstage. My comments above were mostly about the lateral image, but on my speakerbasedsystem the depth image of the Havana is different from my former Rega Apollo. There is hardly any depth; sound remains on the line were the speakers stand, it doesn't go back far and it doesn't 'reach out' forward. 
 I'm not sure how to explain this; is it the inevitable NOS-DAC rollof or are upsampling machines wrong, adding phase distortions and thereby distorting the image?

 Anyway, this is not so much a criticism as a peculair trait of the DAC, that remains to my ears very enjoyable.

 Edit: I should add I'm one of those people that have been trying to enjoy every since it started and having had lots of cheap/midprize CDPs and got desperate when I find none was really enjoyable, due to something in digital sound, always hated the treble and the overdone transients. Until I got the Rega Apollo, the first CDP I could listen to and effort. 
 For me the Havana is an ideal choice, completely missing that aggressive 'digital edge', but your taste may very well differ. 


 P.S. My tubes are the JW/WE396 (1954, but square getters) and the new JJ 6386 I'm using right now.


----------



## bdh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ciphercomplete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, its the stock tube. I don't know man, the stock tube is no slouch. 

 I hope my earlier post wasn't taken as a slam on Havana's dynamics. It is extremely dynamic, I just expected to crush the Decware and Monarchy in that area._

 

I don't know what stock tube you got, but mine sucked compared to the Western Electric JW 25c1.


----------



## ciphercomplete

I am not sure if this thing has the stock tube or not. I think I misread MHDT's website. A Western Electric 396A is what my friend has in there right now and he hasn't responded back to me about whether or not this is the stock tube yet.
 Anyone else have experience with this particular tube?


----------



## bdh

Despite being a 'Western Electric', it's not that good of a tube. On the other hand I haven't heard better than the Western Electric JW 25c1, which is a different tube than the Western Electric 396A, (although they are compatible, of course).


----------



## donunus

the regular 396a is muddy and barbaric sounding IMO


----------



## ciphercomplete

Well I wouldn't call the tube barbaric, at least not in my system. But I have a passive preamp. Donunus - your description did remind me of what the tube sounded like over my friends place -- he has a active preamp.

 I wish I got a chance to hear this thing with a better tube. I like emotion but the 396a was too much. The rich tones I loved on Monday became very fatiguing last night, it reminded me of how my ears felt after 2+ hour sessions with the HD580 where the switch to the almost too thin K701 would be like lemonade on a 98 degree day. I would prefer a thinner tube with a tad bit more air to balance out the NOS sound. I don't know if this means that I prefer oversampling or just dislike this particular tube for long sessions. 

 I didn't get a chance to directly compare it with the Monarchy since my friend has it, but the Havana with the 396a is clearly far behind the Decware ZCD. The Monarchy usually bests the Decware by a smidge so thats my order. Given what other folks have experienced with the 396a I don't think thats unexpected. 

 I am just going to have to convince my buddy to shell out for more tubes so I can borrow the thing again and develop a more informed opinion.

 Thanks for the help guys and I will pass some of your tube choices along to my buddy.


----------



## pdhanwada

My HAVANA on the way. In the process of selecting one TUBE over the standard one supplied with HAVANA.

 I went thru the whole thread and got confused saw different opinions from different people on the lot of the tubes

 I am intrested to know your opinion on the following tubes

 1. Tsung sol

 2. JW WE396a

 3. WE396a

 4. Bendix 2c51

 5. Ericsson

 Any other ones you know off. I am new into the tube world. Bear with me.

 Are used Tubes ok. Any issues there. I hope the Tubes should last atleast 5 years with 10 hours per week usage.


 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## koven

my havana is on the way too... 

 i'll be comparing it with a paradisea+ and the peachtree nova (ess sabre dac)


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am interested to know your opinion on the following tubes:
Tung-Sol
JW WE396A
WE396A
Bendix 2C51
Ericsson
Any other ones you know off? I am new into the tube world. Bear with me. Are used Tubes ok? Any issues there? I hope the Tubes should last at least 5 years with 10 hours per week usage._

 

Hi Padawan, to be fair I have to say that I don't own one of the MHDT's right now, but I can tell you what quality you can expect of some tubes.

 Yes used tubes are ok if you find a reliable source, but it depends on some factors. Is the tube hard to find and expensive or not? Is it tested? What ever you do, there is a risk remaining on it, especially if you buy it from eBay.

 JAN GE 5670(W), Sylvania 2C51, RCA 5670;
 Are good, long lasting and cheap tubes of acceptable quality for many HiFi products.

 WE 396A, Raytheon 396A;
 Are very good tubes, higher quality and also higher priced.

 Tung-Sol 2C51;
 Is from a running production in Russia, better than the Chinese products, cheap and reliable.

 Ericsson 386A (Goldpin), Sylvania 5670 (Goldpin), Bendix 6385 (red bank);
 Are extremely good audiophile tubes, very expensive and rare.

 The sound of that tubes depends on the circuitry of the device and also the remaining audio chain and it's interaction. The acoustic impression is mostly different by individual tastes.


----------



## Elk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my havana is on the way too... 

 i'll be comparing it with a paradisea+ and the peachtree nova (ess sabre dac)_

 

Where did you order it from? Google shopping gives no results and neither does ebay. I want one bad!


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Padawan, to be fair I have to say that I don't own one of the MHDT's right now, but I can tell you what quality you can expect of some tubes.

 Yes used tubes are ok if you find a reliable source, but it depends on some factors. Is the tube hard to find and expensive or not? Is it tested? What ever you do, there is a risk remaining on it, especially if you buy it from eBay.

 JAN GE 5670(W), Sylvania 2C51, RCA 5670;
 Are good, long lasting and cheap tubes of acceptable quality for many HiFi products.

 WE 396A, Raytheon 396A;
 Are very good tubes, higher quality and also higher priced.

 Tung-Sol 2C51;
 Is from a running production in Russia, better than the Chinese products, cheap and reliable.

 Ericsson 386A (Goldpin), Sylvania 5670 (Goldpin), Bendix 6385 (red bank);
 Are extremely good audiophile tubes, very expensive and rare.

 The sound of that tubes depends on the circuitry of the device and also the remaining audio chain and it's interaction. The acoustic impression is mostly different by individual tastes._

 

I'd say that JW WE396A and JJ 6386 are the best available tubes for the Havana, i also recommend to change the stock fuse with a better one like hi-fi tuning fuse or furutech


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say that JW WE396A and JJ 6386 are the best available tubes for the Havana, i also recommend to change the stock fuse with a better one like hi-fi tuning fuse or furutech_

 

The JJ 6386 is also from a running production (in Slovakia) and one of the best tubes, but technically not exactly the same, so I didn't mention it. For a beginner is it better to have an eye on the affordable direct substitutes.


----------



## dura

Since discovering my 'filtering' powercord did not do good for my Havana and chancing it for a simple Belden cable two months ago (described in this tread in far too many words) I have used the new JJ6386 tube.
 This weekend I realized never had listened to my JW WE396 (1954, square getters) with this configuration.
 So I put in the WE396 had some long listening sessions and I now prefer the WE396 to the 6386.
 In my speakerbased system (see sign) the 6386 sounds neutral and smooth, especially in the treble, voices and instruments are more or less on the same line line, soundstage is broad.
 the WE396 puts voices more in front of the instruments and adds more sparkle in the treble and more life to the bass. Soundstage seems slightly less broad but with more depth. The WE396 also sounds louder subjectively, probably because of its more lively character.


----------



## pdhanwada

Dura and Acoustic dreams,

 Thanks for your comments.
 What is the best site to buy from used or new.


----------



## pdhanwada

*"2C51 / WE396A USA, current stock is all CBS with D-Getter
 [396A-USA] 22,50 Euro
 (incl. 19% Vat excl. shipping, exportvalue: 18,91 Euro) 


 2C51 (=WE396A, 6385, 6N3P) made in USA 

 LIMITED SUPPLY !

 The 2C51 is the identical tube as the WE 396A just not made by Western Electric but other US manufacturers like SYLVANIA, RCA, Bendix and others."
*

 2C51 is found on western electric, tung sol sylvania bendix. What is that we are looking for. What is this D-Getter.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2C51 is found on Western Electric, Tung-Sol, Sylvania, Bendix. What is that we are looking for? What is this D-Getter?_

 

What a getter exactly is, you may find *here*. In the most tubes are ring-getters, but some special tubes are made with a D-getter. This getter has the shape of the character "*D*". They are mostly expensive and also hard to find, for example PHILIPS Miniwatt ECC83 (straight D-getter with flat cross bar, stapled plates). But a D-getter doesn't automatically guarantee a better sound!

 What we are looking for, is all mentioned on my short list. For a rough overview at first is it enough. For further information I recommend a good book about the basics of valves and amplifiers. There are also the individual elements of the valve structure commonly explained.


----------



## indydieselnut

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Elk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you order it from? Google shopping gives no results and neither does ebay. I want one bad! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just bought one off eBay...just about two hours ago direct from MHDT. I was a bit shocked by the $899 but wanted to give a NOS dac a try. I also bought two different NOS WE 396 tubes from two different sources. 

 Cheers!


----------



## h.rav

^ You can get one directly from MHDT for $854 + $45 (US)
Ordering Information

 I bought a Havana a few weeks ago, the sound is silky smooth but the sound stage is noticeably narrower than my tiny Gamma 2.


----------



## indydieselnut

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h.rav* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ You can get one directly from MHDT for $854 + $45 (US)
Ordering Information

 I bought a Havana a few weeks ago, the sound is silky smooth but the sound stage is noticeably narrower than my tiny Gamma 2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You just saved me $45! If you're at CanJam this year I owe you a beer...

 I wrote MHDT and asked for the $45 refund. I'm assuming they'll give it to me. 

 Thanks!
 John


----------



## Weez

Has everyone that ordered from Mhdt Labs recently been in contact with them? I’m trying to get a answer to a question, but I haven’t gotten an answer in 2 weeks :/ The Chinese New Year is over now right?


----------



## indydieselnut

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has everyone that ordered from Mhdt Labs recently been in contact with them? I’m trying to get a answer to a question, but I haven’t gotten an answer in 2 weeks :/ The Chinese New Year is over now right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I haven't gotten any word from them but I just ordered yesterday. Hopefully it won't take them too long to get in touch with me.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has everyone that ordered from Mhdt Labs recently been in contact with them? I’m trying to get a answer to a question, but I haven’t gotten an answer in 2 weeks :/ The Chinese New Year is over now right?_

 

I also tried to contact them a few weeks ago, but no answer at all. These people isn't willing to answer technical questions, that is reason enough for me to stop dealing with them. Communication is normally part of the service, in this case is it probably more a barrier.


----------



## indydieselnut

I just received shipment confirmation and a reply to my email about the difference between the price listed on their website and the price on ebay. The price difference is due to the ebay charges incurred. My suggestion is to buy directly to avoid any confusion. 

 So, just letting people know that I did receive communication today. I don't know what that means for everyone else.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also tried to contact them a few weeks ago, but no answer at all. These people isn't willing to answer technical questions, that is reason enough for me to stop dealing with them. Communication is normally part of the service, in this case is it probably more a barrier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

what contact address are you using?


----------



## Weez

I've contacted them through eBay. I got answers but I didn’t get an answer to my final follow-up question. It’s that answer I’ve been waiting for in 2 weeks lol. I will probably buy a Havana DAC but well…I want my answer. I’ve just recently sent another e-mail just to be sure. At this point I feel a bit ignored


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what contact address are you using?_

 

I used mhdtgang@yahoo.com repeatedly.


----------



## classfolkphile

Ordered the Jensen caps to replace the stock MHDT input caps. Should arrive this week and hopefully I'll be able to have them installed by next weekend.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ordered the Jensen caps to replace the stock MHDT input caps. Should arrive this week and hopefully I'll be able to have them installed by next weekend._

 

Please update once it is done ya. I am happy with the V-Caps installed though.


----------



## Weez

I have a question. How do you think the sound would be affected if I replace the coax jack with a BNC jack on the Havana? Would it result in any noticeable difference at all?


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a question. How do you think the sound would be affected if I replace the coax jack with a BNC jack on the Havana? Would it result in any noticeable difference at all?_

 

NO


----------



## pdhanwada

My Havana is on the way.

 I am planning on JW 396A and LM Erricson 2C51 tubes from tubeworld.com

 I need a power cord, usb cable and a TOSLINK fiber optic cable.

 Can you suggest me a single buyer on the internet where I can buy all from one guy so that I can save shipping costs.

 My Budget is not high. In the range of $50.00

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## pdhanwada

What is your opinion on Cryo Tubes in Tubeworld.com


----------



## Weez

MHDT Labs contacted me today and answered my question(s) (or well partly, the rest I figured out when I was waiting for a replay). Better late than never 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Apparently they are busy planning and organizing audio shows in Shanghai and Munich. I would definitely attend that if I had the opportunity. 
 Anyway, my Havana is on the way with a BNC jack instead of a coax jack. I’m planning to buy M2Tech hiFace USB --> S/PDIF (BNC) later on 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Damn, I’m excited


----------



## indydieselnut

My Havana is in the country and trying to be delivered. I purchased two NOS Western Electric 396A tubes from two different sources and they have arrived. 

 My question is that one says "2C51/396A" and one just says "396A"...does this just mean two different manufacturing "eras" or is one tube genuinely different than the other? 

 Thanks!


----------



## indydieselnut

Also, how do I track with EMS? It shows that it got to Chicago, was released to the destination office, and one failed delivery attempt on the 6th. However, I still haven't received it. Would it be at my local USPS office? I just don't know how to handle it once it's here...andy help would be appreciated.


----------



## M3NTAL

Any updates on the capacitor upgrades? Wondering what peoples feelings are - now that there is a little more time on them.


----------



## Weez

I just received my Havana, talk about quick delivery : o I’m really pleased, it’s a very engaging DAC and definitely an upgrade from KECES DA-151. 
 When I have some more money over I will buy the hiFace, a good BNC cable, other tubes etc. If it sounds good through USB I can’t image how it sounds through BNC : )


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Weez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received my Havana, talk about quick delivery : o I’m really pleased, it’s a very engaging DAC and definitely an upgrade from KECES DA-151. 
 When I have some more money over I will buy the hiFace, a good BNC cable, other tubes etc. If it sounds good through USB I can’t image how it sounds through BNC : )_

 

Glad you find it better than the KECES DA-151.
 That was nice of MHDT labs to install a BNC jack for you.


----------



## M3NTAL

Weez - tubes make a surprising difference in the sound on these - enjoy rolling them out!


----------



## jcoops16

I have read through all 60 pages of this thread over the last couple of days and I really like the look of the Havana. Even though I cant see me being able to afford one this year im really tempted to get a couple of tubes for it


----------



## indydieselnut

Can anyone give me the size of the hex wrench needed to take the top bolts off? I'm ready to tube-roll and none of my wrench sizes seemed to be a perfect fit...tried English and Metric. 

 I'm also pretty tired and might be missing something...


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *indydieselnut* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone give me the size of the hex wrench needed to take the top bolts off? I'm ready to tube-roll and none of my wrench sizes seemed to be a perfect fit...tried English and Metric. 

 I'm also pretty tired and might be missing something..._

 

It's a torx T8


----------



## indydieselnut

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a torx T8_

 

Many thanks!


----------



## classfolkphile

So I got the Jensen and Jupiter input caps and dropped them and the Havana off at my tech's shop today. Should have it back by Sat.

 Will post my initial impressions soon afterwards.


----------



## pdhanwada

I am looking for Budget power cord. Preferably under $50.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking for Budget power cord. Preferably under $50.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

I get good results out of the Havana with a Belden powercable, locally made by a hifishop that sells it for €35,-
 Perhaps you can find about the same cable in your part of the world, or order online or DIY.


----------



## indydieselnut

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking for Budget power cord. Preferably under $50.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

I get fuzzy on whether or not this is against the rules, but I have several DIY power cables I made from Belden 19364 cable and Wattgate connectors that I'd be happy to sell. Please PM me if you're interested. 

 Also - these are VERY easy to make...I'm not typically a DIY'er but this is like falling off a log. Source the cable, buy the plugs, and build it. You can use a little Progold on the contacts, techflex and heatshrink it for pretty's sake...but it is all very easy.


----------



## pdhanwada

Indy,

 Let me know the price and length of each of those cables.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking for Budget power cord. Preferably under $50.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

Another option is to find a Zu Birth on Ebay ... they often sell for 40 to 50 bucks there as a promotional item ...

 Great power cord.

 Best.
 .joel


----------



## sk3383

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking for Budget power cord. Preferably under $50.

 Let me know.

 Thanks
 Pandu_

 

Try one of these out, very inexpensive. Offer great value.

 Iron Lung Jellyfish OR Volex 17604

 Found these on this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/it...viewed-219202/


----------



## DarKu

Who wanna make a big improvement using Havana, i recommend to you all the M2tech Hi-face, I recieved it yesterday and the improvement it did to Havana is unbelivable !
 Much better imaging, bigger and deeper soundstage, more air around the notes, better impact too, well worth 107 euro (150 $) !


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Does the M2tech HiFace mess with the sampling rate of the signal or does it just pass it through as 16/44?


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who wanna make a big improvement using Havana, i recommend to you all the M2tech Hi-face, I recieved it yesterday and the improvement it did to Havana is unbelivable !
 Much better imaging, bigger and deeper soundstage, more air around the notes, better impact too, well worth 107 euro (150 $) !_

 

Interesting. Isn't this device very source dependent, or is it the sensitivity of the receiving machine the most determinant factor? 
 In other words, do you think it will work equally well on all Havana-systems, or is the digital source the most important?


----------



## DarKu

As you may know NOS DAC's do not have the best master clocks and are pretty susceptible to jitter. Also NOS DAC's are very dependent of transports. I used the coax out and optic out from my on-board till now, hi-face made a big improvement in my system. This means that Havana need the cleanest transport it can get, it seems that this little device (hi-face) was built quite nice and do wonders in some systems. I'm sure it will do in your systems too.

 It doesnt mess with sampling rates, it plays the original sample rate of your music be it 44.1, 96 or 192Khz. I do have only 44.1 and 96Khz music and Havana plays them equally well


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As you may know NOS DAC's do not have the best master clocks and are pretty susceptible to jitter. Also NOS DAC's are very dependent of transports. I used the coax out and optic out from my on-board till now, hi-face made a big improvement in my system. This means that Havana need the cleanest transport it can get, it seems that this little device (hi-face) was built quite nice and do wonders in some systems. It sure it will do in your systems too.

 It doesnt mess with sampling rates, it plays the original sample rate of your music be it 44.1, 96 or 192Khz. I do have only 44.1 and 96Khz music and Havana plays them equally well_

 

Thanks for the words ... 

 But that said, ...

 My Havana don't jitter!

 In fact, (not to judge you or your post) ... I don't even know what "jitter" is!

 Is this something that mostly plagues USB listeners?

 I don't listen via USB, so maybe I'm missing the party ... I listen via coaxial, primarily and some times optical ...

 What up with "jitter"? Is it USB only for the most part?


----------



## DarKu

My Havana was perfectly fine, very detailed and sounded very good...until i heard it with the Hi-Face. It's like listening to a Super Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Jitter exists in analog and digital cables (be it USB, coax, optic or analog interconnect cables) and it changes the source signal (a bad thing) which can cause distorsions or just makes music a little veiled.
 It will be best if you can try somewhere this device first.
 Soon i will be upgrading my havana too (al film caps changed, all electrolitics, output caps, adding carbon resistors and maybe a teflon tube socket), i wanna make an ultimate Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Example of an ultimate Havana: http://www.dms-audio.com/havana-dac-mods
 mine will be something similar


----------



## Weez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Weez - tubes make a surprising difference in the sound on these - enjoy rolling them out!_

 

So I’ve heard : ) However; tubes are a pretty unfamiliar territory for me. 
 I listen to a lot of rock and metal so I need a “fast” tube, not a tube which is crossly warm (I do like warmth though) which may be better suited for reggae or jazz. A dynamic and liquid tube with a touch of well rounded warmth would be awesome : )


----------



## DarKu

fast, dynamic, with a good midrange and low end, smooth as butter, good separation and imaging capabilities, then definetely the JW WE396A !


----------



## Weez

Ok, will look into that tube.

 Where do you normally buy tubes like the JW WE396A? Ebay?


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the words ... 

 But that said, ...

 My Havana don't jitter!

 In fact, (not to judge you or your post) ... I don't even know what "jitter" is!

 Is this something that mostly plagues USB listeners?

 I don't listen via USB, so maybe I'm missing the party ... I listen via coaxial, primarily and some times optical ...

 What up with "jitter"? Is it USB only for the most part?_

 

The Device Darku ment is used for computeraudio only if I understand correctly. You can plug it into an USB buss on the source computer, then put in a digital coax cable on the other side that'll go to our beloved Havana.
 USB busses are rather polluted with noise it seems, and the digital signal can be jittery.
 But if you use a good digital source other then a PC, you cannot use this thingy, and might not need it either.


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Device Darku ment is used for computeraudio only if I understand correctly. You can plug it into an USB buss on the source computer, then put in a digital coax cable on the other side that'll go to our beloved Havana.
 USB busses are rather polluted with noise it seems, and the digital signal can be jittery.
 But if you use a good digital source other then a PC, you cannot use this thingy, and might not need it either._

 

Exactly!
 But a CD player with a very good trasport inside of it is hard to find 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Some CD players do have very nice transports but are expensive, so a hi-face was a no brainer for me. For a computer based system I will recommend this thing to everyone, I'm hearing a lot more details right now and the music became more airy and transparent.


----------



## himynameis

@DarKu

 Glad to hear the HiFace made as big an improvement (if not bigger) with the Havana as it did with the Lavry DA10 in my rig.

 One more thing I can add to the HiFace "praise" (no fan-boy-ism) is that when compared to the EMU0404 (used only as coax transport), the EMU gets trumped big-time. So, a big thumbs-up for M2Tech for making this affrodable, excellent value-fro-money device 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Regarding an earlier statement that you made: that changeing the RCA to BNC on the Havana won't make a difference in sound - can you tell me in a few words why you think that is.
 I read several interesting views regarding RCA vs BNC but I still don't have a good grip on the matter...

 One oppinion I value is that of Dan Lavry, which I found here: Lavry Engineering - View topic - AES vs Coaxial

 He says that _*"XLR, RCA and BNC are all circular connectors, all very simple structures. From signal transmission standpoint, one looks at it as a very short transmission path with a certain very small series resistance, small series inductance, and some small parallel capacitance."*_* 

 and that

*_ "*The connector alone has nothing to do with jitter. The cable alone has nothing to do with jitter. The issues making jitter are, as I mentioned already, the lower and upper cutoff of the transmission link, the termination tolerance, the cable impedance tolerance and more.*"_


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *himynameis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 @DarKu

 Glad to hear the HiFace made as big an improvement (if not bigger) with the Havana as it did with the Lavry DA10 in my rig.
_

 

Just curious, have either of you guys compared your HiFace to a Trends UD10 or Blue Circle Thingee?

 USG


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *himynameis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@DarKu

 Glad to hear the HiFace made as big an improvement (if not bigger) with the Havana as it did with the Lavry DA10 in my rig.

 One more thing I can add to the HiFace "praise" (no fan-boy-ism) is that when compared to the EMU0404 (used only as coax transport), the EMU gets trumped big-time. So, a big thumbs-up for M2Tech for making this affrodable, excellent value-fro-money device 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Regarding an earlier statement that you made: that changeing the RCA to BNC on the Havana won't make a difference in sound - can you tell me in a few words why you think that is.
 I read several interesting views regarding RCA vs BNC but I still don't have a good grip on the matter...

 One oppinion I value is that of Dan Lavry, which I found here: Lavry Engineering - View topic - AES vs Coaxial

 He says that *"XLR, RCA and BNC are all circular connectors, all very simple structures. From signal transmission standpoint, one looks at it as a very short transmission path with a certain very small series resistance, small series inductance, and some small parallel capacitance."** 

 and that

* "*The connector alone has nothing to do with jitter. The cable alone has nothing to do with jitter. The issues making jitter are, as I mentioned already, the lower and upper cutoff of the transmission link, the termination tolerance, the cable impedance tolerance and more.*"_

 

Well, Dan allready told you why a single connector would not do a difference, this is what i think also, a connector (or two) alone could not make a difference, however a cable would do (number of strands, cable shield, cable impedance, etc) 

 @USG 
 Never heard a Trends or a BCT, after the hi-face + Havana i'm not interested in other combos


----------



## FOXY

Is there a comparison of havana DAC against other products like twistedpear buffalo?


----------



## dura

Nothing new to contribute; just wanted to say how happy I still am with my Havana. 
 It has a gorgeous sound, not spectaculair at first hearing but completely free of that nasty digital edge that prevented me from enjoying digital sources for longer times.
 Recently I often found myself enjoying music (if possible with a good glass of scotch) into the small hours, long after I usually go to sleep.


----------



## DarKu

you cannot compare a pure SS DAC to a completely different NOS DAC with tube output stage, they will sound *very *different. If you seek the absolute detailness and the last bit from from audio: a SS DAC will be advisable. If you seek a real, natural, relaxing, analog sound without colorations or digital harshness, yet dynamic and fast you can opt for a NOS DAC like Havana. Depends on what you like more
 PS:  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Recently I often found myself enjoying music (if possible with a good glass of scotch) into the small hours, long after I usually go to sleep._

 

Haha, i do the same, but with a good glass of Cognac


----------



## s1rrah

Does anyone else occasionally grow terrified that some strange technical flaw might afflict their Havana DAC, rendering it useless? Have you then fretted over how you might have to cough up another 900 bucks to get another one?

 I do. I have.

 All the time.

 In fact, I'm considering buying another one to just keep "on the shelf" and all ... just in case my current DAC fails.

 Yes.

 It's *that* good.



 (best kept secret and all)

 Rock on.

 .joel


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone else ..._

 

No


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone else occasionally grow terrified that some strange technical flaw might afflict their Havana DAC, rendering it useless? Have you then fretted over how you might have to cough up another 900 bucks to get another one?

 I do. I have.

 All the time.

 In fact, I'm considering buying another one to just keep "on the shelf" and all ... just in case my current DAC fails.

 Yes.

 It's *that* good.



 (best kept secret and all)

 Rock on.

 .joel_

 

Buying an extra one is a little bit over the top for me, but I can see where your worries come from. 
 It is probably not being unable to buy one because of lack of money (if you can buy a spare one now, you could also put that money on the bank in case, which would be a more rational approach. But hear who's talking, I'm not so good with money myself).
 But MHDT once threatened to stop producing the Havana (see the beginning of this tread) and there is, AFAIK, no other DAC that gives this sound signature with this quality below $1000,-
 I cannot see myself ever enjoying that digital analytical sound of f.i. the Stello 100 Signature, no matter how excellent that machine is valuewise.
 Without the Havana I would probably have to resort to the Red Wine DAC, much more expensive.


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Buying an extra one is a little bit over the top for me, but I can see where your worries come from. 
 It is probably not being unable to buy one because of lack of money (if you can buy a spare one now, you could also put that money on the bank in case, which would be a more rational approach. But hear who's talking, I'm not so good with money myself).
 But MHDT once threatened to stop producing the Havana (see the beginning of this tread) and there is, AFAIK, no other DAC that gives this sound signature with this quality below $1000,-
 I cannot see myself ever enjoying that digital analytical sound of f.i. the Stello 100 Signature, no matter how excellent that machine is valuewise.
 Without the Havana I would probably have to resort to the Red Wine DAC, much more expensive._

 

Totaly agree with you. In the next month i'm planing to upgrade my Havana with *best *parts available on the market. I want to replace all electrolytic caps with BlackGates (very rare and expesnsive, unfortunately), all film caps (thinking about Jupiter HT for output, and mundorf gold/silver/oil for input - also very expensive) and some resistors (on critical locations), plus a better fuse (furutech or hi-fi tunning) and maybe a teflon tube socket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , all of this will rise the price of Havana for about 50%
 Will see how it turns out.


----------



## himynameis

@DarKu
 Those mods must be really good. Hopefully, we'll be able to compare the stock Havana with your modded one once you'll be done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Have any of you guys, who enjoy the Havana, managed to compare JJ6386 to WE396A or any other 1'st class recommende tube?

 I can't wait to get the Havana and see what it's all about - I really built up some high expectations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got myself preparde with a JJ6386 and a WE396A D getter (not JW though).

 The JW verison is supposed to be better sounding or just last longer?


----------



## DarKu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *himynameis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@DarKu
 Those mods must be really good. Hopefully, we'll be able to compare the stock Havana with your modded one once you'll be done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Have any of you guys, who enjoy the Havana, managed to compare JJ6386 to WE396A or any other 1'st class recommende tube?

 I can't wait to get the Havana and see what it's all about - I really built up some high expectations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got myself preparde with a JJ6386 and a WE396A D getter (not JW though).

 The JW verison is supposed to be better sounding or just last longer?_

 

JW is military grade 396A, made between 1950-70 for US army. I believe it has better parts inside, *s1rrah* has both of them and compared them side by side, he will tell you more about them.
 I've got my JW version from tubeworld (i seen they do not have JW's no more), but i found in Europe some, see here: WE 396A (=2C51, 6N3P) Western Electric NOS Röhre Röhren, AMP Kits und Lautsprecher - Tube Amp Doctor
 Ask them if it is a JW, on picture it seems so, my tube looks exatly the same


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *himynameis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have any of you guys, who enjoy the Havana, managed to compare JJ6386 to WE396A or any other 1'st class recommende tube?_

 

I have both tubes.
 I started with the JW WE396A, sounded okay but a little bit lacklustre. Then I switched to the JJ6386 and I got more bass and a larger soundtage.
 Then it turned out my filtering powercord choked the Havana and caused it to sound far less energetic then it can. 
 After sorting that out I was quite happy with the 6386, which gave a very smooth sound, nothing standing out.
 But a month ago I realised I never had given the 396 a proper chance.
 Inserted it and was rewarded with a more lively sound. Voices came more to the foreground, bass seems more nimble, treble was more sparkling.
 Soundstage lost a little in width but gained in depth. 
 I would say the choice between the two it depends on the rest of your system and your preferences: 6368 is smooth, 396 is lively.


----------



## himynameis

Thanks for the feedback dura. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This morning I finally got the Havana - paired it with jj 6386 and it sounds fantastic. Some emphasis on bass, but good emphasis. Clear, natural, not-tiring sound. I like it alot. 
 The Lavry DA10 might make acquaintance with the for sale section.

 I have a non-JW WE396A D-getter which I'll try in a few days.

 Truly a bang for the buck piece of kit!

 PS: What do you mean when you say "lacklustre"?

 I also use a conditioning power cord to power the DAC: the Wireworld Electra alongside a Isotek Orion power-conditioner. I'll try the MHDT Basic Powercord as an alternative.


----------



## dura

Recognisable description of the Havana sound, Himynameis, glad you love it too.

 I used a 'filtering' powercord, the van den Hul Mainsserver, that worked great with my former Rega Apollo. 
 Somehow the music sounded too clean with the Havana, lost its energy and dynamic impact giving a detailed but sterile sound.
 I tried some other powercords with a simple configurations (three wires and a shield) and finally settled on a humble Belden. 
 The Havana seems to be sensitive to PCs, so perhaps after burning in and familiarising yourself with the sound you can do a few little pailess experiments to see what fits your needs best.
 I'm interested in your opinions about the 6386 vs the 396A, please keep us posted.


----------



## Superpredator

I started listening closely to my Monarchy M24 again, and it makes me miss the Storm D02 terribly. To anyone who's heard both, is the Havana anything like it? I know this is probably a long shot, and I don't want to stir up any crap-covered hornets, so don't go digging if you don't already know what it is.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Superpredator* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I started listening closely to my Monarchy M24 again, and it makes me miss the Storm D02 terribly. To anyone who's heard both, is the Havana anything like it? I know this is probably a long shot, and I don't want to stir up any crap-covered hornets, so don't go digging if you don't already know what it is._

 

I think you might be one of the only people to have a D02, so there is almost no point in looking for comparisons.

 I would just get the Havana. See if you like it. If so, great. If not, the resale value on them is quite good, so you'll be like 50-100$ out of pocket (peanuts). Do give a 20$ WE396A a try in it though!


----------



## Henerenry

What is the soundstage like on the havana on a "good" speaker system?


----------



## himynameis

@dura
 I'll say what I think about 6386, WE396A, power cords & co. but I'll only do so when I'm quite sure of the differences I can hear. 
 And when I do, I'll have describe the differeces the best way I can because I don't have a really good grasp on how to identify and diffentiate such things as energy, dynamics, micro-details, 3d effects etc. 

 @Superpredator If you use the EMU 1212 to feed the M24, do give the M2tech HiFace a try. You may very well be very surprised by the improvments. 
 (And if you're not, you can resell it at an ~10% loss...)

 @Henerenry I'm also curious how a good speaker rig sounds with this baby. Maybe someone who listens to both heaphones and speakers will give us an idea.


----------



## Superpredator

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you might be one of the only people to have a D02, so there is almost no point in looking for comparisons.

 I would just get the Havana. See if you like it. If so, great. If not, the resale value on them is quite good, so you'll be like 50-100$ out of pocket (peanuts). Do give a 20$ WE396A a try in it though!_

 

The people who liked the D02 seemed to continue chasing NOS, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Unlikely, as you say.

 I don't really want to get into the habit of owning gear of duplicate function again, and neither do I really want to let the M24 go until I have a solid replacement lined up. We'll see.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *himynameis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Superpredator If you use the EMU 1212 to feed the M24, do give the M2tech HiFace a try. You may very well be very surprised by the improvments. 
 (And if you're not, you can resell it at an ~10% loss...)_

 

Will look into it, thanks. I have a feeling I'm just craving NOS again, and MHDT seems to be taking it more seriously than anyone else at this point.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you might be one of the only people to have a D02, so there is almost no point in looking for comparisons.

 I would just get the Havana. See if you like it. If so, great. If not, the resale value on them is quite good, so you'll be like 50-100$ out of pocket (peanuts). Do give a 20$ WE396A a try in it though!_

 

I have to concur.

 A wise bit of commentary.

 Listen well.


----------



## dura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Henerenry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the soundstage like on the havana on a "good" speaker system?_

 

I only listen to the Havana on my speaker-based system.
 The soundstage is nice, but not special. 
 Before I had the Havana I tried a Meier Stagedac and that had a really large soundstage, enormous width and really layered depth.
 The Havana does not have much depth and width is average.
 It also does not reach out but sounds laid back, the action seems to happen around and behind the speakers, not in front of them.
 No pinpointing placement.
 I think this is because the treble is not accentuated as up/oversampling seems to do in some way (that I really hate, I love a large soundstage as much as the next guy, but I can't stand the sound signature of these machines).
 So what you loose in soundstage size with the Havana you gain in tonal purity IMO.

 This might sound more negative then I intended; 
 Soundstage still feel natural and completely free from the speakers, like listening to live music, it is just not that enlarged holographic thing.

 I personally greatly prefer the Havana's natural tonal colors and soundstage above the analytical over-detailed picture painted by many digital devices (except for electronic music), but YMMV.


----------



## himynameis

Thanks for the excellent comments dura 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 For electronic music, I find to combination of Havana + Electra Wireworld power cable to be a little bit more enjoyable than the Havana + MHDT, ATLAS or any other "classic" powercord.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I used a 'filtering' powercord, the van den Hul Mainsserver, that worked great with my former Rega Apollo. 
 Somehow the music sounded too clean with the Havana, lost its energy and dynamic impact giving a detailed but sterile sound.
 I tried some other powercords with a simple configurations (three wires and a shield) and finally settled on a humble Belden._

 

That is a very good observation. I have been using a filtering cord as well and it has worked well with other players and other pieces of equipment. After reading your post, I swapped out the special cord for a very basic one and noticed an immediate improvement along the lines you did. The sound was very smooth, even and not all that exciting. With the more basic power cord, the sound is much livelier and interesting. More dynamic.

 I have also noticed the Havana is quite sensitive to the digital signal being sent. I happen to be using cMP/cPlay as my player via USB and there are many configuration options to choose from: Buffer size, SRC vs Sox, ASIO4ALL settings, etc. All of these make a big difference in the sound. It has taken me some time to go through them all and determine a combination of settings that sounds best to me. The process has been well worth the effort. The Havana is sounding so good I am enjoying it even more now than I did when I first got it a couple month ago.


----------



## pdhanwada

My fronts are Paradigm Signature S4, Signature C3
 Amp B&K 7270 7 X 200
 preamp B&K ref 30
 REL strata III subwoofer
 My cd player being the Technics SL MC 7.

 First Impressions out of the box with stock tube:

 Highs are smoother, Bass is fully extended. Sound stage covers bigger area. 
 Depths got increased.

 Now I see the need for a dac when you want to run High powered speakers and Amps.

 Listening fatigue is gone. I used to have trouble with some of the songs which had prominent treble for which my signatures were quite edgy, sharp. That has been rolled off. Now I can listen to all the songs without any fatigue. 

 Soundstage: Between the two speakers, I used to feel that the sound stage was kind of narrow, After the DAC insertion, Fronts dissappear, sound seems to come from wider area.


 Depth has also increased significantly. 

 I expect the dac to still smooth out during the first 50 hours of playing.

 I changed the tube to LM Ericsion 2C51. This is better than the Ge stock tube. Bass was tighter but the more roll off on the Highs.

 After couple of hours of playing I changed it JW 396a Western electric one of 1954. Here the High rolloffs was smoother bass was as tight as the Ericsson one also the sound stage got bigger. It has only been couple of hours of running on this tube, I expect this to still smooth out and music becomes more enjoyable.

 MHDT sent me free power cord, which is doing a good job. I dont intend to change it anytime soon. 

 My interconnects are the Audioquest basic ones. I dont know their names. I will change some of these later in my next audio improvement project.

 My transport is SL MC7 Technics 110 cd changer, doing wonderful job. Not observed any jitter. As of now I dont want to worry about Jitter. Leave it as it is. There is so much improvement. 

 I have been a quite of reader of this thread. I do agree with DURA where in he says, music is lively, natural, cream like butter. 

 I have never listened to vinyl, but this is as good as it gets.

 I will put back my impressions in the next edition.

 Thanks
 Pandu


----------



## Rudivanb

Thank you all for your recommendations of the MHDT Havana. Today I compared between these D/A converters: 
 Benchmark DAC-1, 
 Yamamoto YDA-01 and 
 MHDT Havana with Western Electric JW396 tube.

 Source: WAV files extracted with EAC all from original CD's -> Foobar -> Sox resampler set to 96 Khz **1* -> Wasapi -> Canare RCA/BNC or standard USB Cable **2* -> Soundcard set to 96 Khz when SoX resampler was in use, set to 44,1 Khz without SoX -> Various DAC's -> Home brew analog cable made of silver, C37 and cotton -> Yamamoto HA-02 -> Sennheiser HD-800 with stock cable.
**1*) Only with the YDA-01 and the DAC-1 I have used the SoX resampler as I liked it better then without. For the Havana I preferred using no resampler
**2*) With the Havana I used a standard USB cable, this imho sounded better then the Canare SPDIF connection

 Playlist:
 01 - Silence.wav 
 02 - Mozart - Heau, Manfred String Quartet - Clarinet Quartet in Es Dur, K380-374f - Rondo.wav
 03 - Eine kleine Nachtmusik G-Dur KV 525 - 3 - Menuetto. Allegretto.wav
 04 - Shostakovich - Osiris Trio - Seven romances after Poems by Alexander Blok - 1967 nr. 7.wav
 05 - Olivier Messiaen - Quatuor pour la fin du temps - Liturgie de cristal.wav
 06 - Lucette van den Berg - Hulyet, hulyet kinderlekh.wav **3*
 07 - Louis Andriessen - Ralph van Raat - Wals 1974.wav
 08 - Louis Andriessen - Ralph van Raat - Lied 1993.wav
 09 - Sivan Perwer - Heybiyenin.wav
 10 - Keith Jarett - Sonata for Violin and Piano
 11 - Karunesh - Morning Celebration.wav
 12 - Lekeu, Guillaume - Spiegel String Quartet - Quator (1887) Capriccio.wav
 13 - Jorane - Battayum 2.wav
 14 - John Adams - Four Songs 2 - A sermon on romance.wav
 15 - John Adams - Four Songs 3 - Leila's song.wav
 16 - Jan Garbarek - Without Visible Sign.wav
 17 - Giovanni Sollima - Nyagrodha.wav
 18 - Djivan Gasparyan - Mayrik Em (Mother Of Mine).wav
**3*) Have heard her sing live unamplified with here beautiful voice, something I will never forget, as I had water pouring out of my eyes for most part of the concert, so touched I was. We were sitting like two meters distance from here

*Disclaimer *4*: 
 The Havana was on power for more 20 hours on a row. The YDA-01 and the DAC-1 were powered up only just before listening. But I know these machines quite well, I think my findings would be the same if I had them powered up much more time beforehand. The Havana I only have for less then two weeks with between 75-100 hours burning in time.

 My goal was to find out which set up sounded, at least to my ears and my mood today, most natural, most realistic, as when I am listening to musicians playing on stage, preferably unamplified.

 Until today I was a bit disappointed by the Havana, that made me try it without the SoX resampler. This yielded some nice improvement. Then I thought I might try the USB connection; at first I did not want to believe my ears. But yes, I like it more. 

 Okay, let me give some scores now **4*)
 Dynamics: Best are imho the YDA-01 and the Havana
 Black background: The DAC-1
 Grabbing me by my ba***, eh... ears: The YDA-01 and the Havana
 Neutrality: The DAC-1
 Details: All three D/A converters give me all of the details, hard to choose here. Maybe the DAC-1 because it painted the musical pictures against the blackest background
 Transparency: Same as with details
 Colors: The Havana and the Yammie
 Fluidity: The Havana
 Naturalness, my main issue: Here it is easy to choose: The MHDT Havana

 Maybe with a different S/PDIF cable, like the Oyaide DB-510 BNC the results will be different. Have tried SPDIF calbes like Stereovox XV-2 and Nordost Moonglo which were less to my liking. I hope to hear the DB-510 in my set one day, if my findings with these DAC's will change with this cable I will report. 

 If I wanted to buy a DAC now with a limited budget I would probably choose a HiFace BNC with a Benchmark DAC-1 second hand. For amplified instruments and electronic music I think I prefer the Yamamoto YDA-01. But because the main part of my musical diet nowadays from cd's and at real concerts consist of classical music, I think I will be happy with the MHDT Havana DAC for a long time to come. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But what a surprise that I preferred it without upsampling via USB.


----------



## pdhanwada

Eversince I got my MHDT havana DAC, I had done quite an amount of listening. Was not happy about the output. There was improvement in the sound stage and depth but was not happy about it. Wasnt feeling the improvement which was worth $1000 I spent on the DAC.

 Until before this weekend, Blue jeans interconnect was connected between preamp and the amps and the audio quest interconnects( These were the free bies provided by the dealer at the time of purchasing my signatures) connected between the DAC and preamp. I interchanged the interconnects. Now Blue jeans connects between my havana and the preamp and audio quest ones connect between preamp and amp. Suddenly I see a change in the sound signature.

 After listening for a while Just decreased the TOE in angle. This changed everything in my system. Now the soundstage has become wide and deep. I used to have problems with the highs. Thats all gone. 

 Logically going thru my situation, Crap from source is Crap out of the AMP. Keep the source data clean. Having better cables at the source level is more important than at the amp level.

 WIthout a dac I used to have high toe in angle. That is probably because the off-axis response by the speaker was not good because of source. Once I cleanup the source, Off-axis response improves, making me decrease my toe in angle and increasing my sound stage.
 THanks
 Pandu


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdhanwada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_THanks_

 

No need to thank us.


----------



## mafaldich

Hi Folks,

 I just received my Havana. Very fast shipping. It looks beautiful. The size is much smaller than I thought. And I start to burn in it. Just have a silly question. What tools should I use open it if I want to try changing tubes? Thanks.


----------



## jjinh

The finish on the edges of the acrylic faceplate of my Havana are a bit rough. The replacement I got was worse. Does anyone else have this problem? There is absolutely no problem with the acrylic on my Paradisea+ (which is a lot thinner).


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jjinh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The finish on the edges of the acrylic faceplate of my Havana are a bit rough. The replacement I got was worse. Does anyone else have this problem? There is absolutely no problem with the acrylic on my Paradisea+ (which is a lot thinner)._

 

Mine are smooth. I remember my Paradisea had slight "striations" in it, though.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Mine are smooth too. No sharp edges.


----------



## Rudivanb

I guess I am also lucky to have received it with smooth edges. 
 Yesterday I brought the Havana over to a friend, he has a speaker based system. The various interlinks we tried made quite a difference.


----------



## jjinh

That's interesting. I also looked at towert7's pics on page 2 and it also looks perfect. Our distributor says all of his stock are in a similar condition (i.e. rough edges). Oh well, I can live with it. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I remember my Paradisea had slight "striations" in it, though._

 

Same here.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jjinh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's interesting. I also looked at towert7's pics on page 2 and it also looks perfect. Our distributor says all of his stock are in a similar condition (i.e. rough edges). Oh well, I can live with it. _

 

Yes, my edges are smooth as can be.


----------



## indydieselnut

If you find a plastics company that handles acrylic, they can probably do a light flame-polishing on the edges and they will smooth out. There's always the risk it will end up worse (like if they put a big scratch on the face while handling it), but you can at least approach them and see what they say.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jjinh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The finish on the edges of the acrylic faceplate of my Havana are a bit rough. The replacement I got was worse. Does anyone else have this problem? There is absolutely no problem with the acrylic on my Paradisea+ (which is a lot thinner)._

 

Could you post a picture of what the edges look like?

 I'm sure I missed it in the thread, but why did you need a replacement?

 USG


----------



## jjinh

It wont let me attach a pic so I put it in an album in my profile. 

 Sorry the pic is of such a poor resolution (took it with my phone), but you should be able to see all these little chips off the top inner edge. Its the same all the way around. 

 I got a replacement unit as the rod on the toslink plug was broken inside the port - hence I could not use toslink with the unit. 

 The faceplate on the replacement unit was really bad, so I just took it off and replaced it with the one from my first havana.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jjinh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It wont let me attach a pic so I put it in an album in my profile. 

 Sorry the pic is of such a poor resolution (took it with my phone), but you should be able to see all these little chips off the top inner edge. Its the same all the way around. 

 I got a replacement unit as the rod on the toslink plug was broken inside the port - hence I could not use toslink with the unit. 

 The faceplate on the replacement unit was really bad, so I just took it off and replaced it with the one from my first havana._

 

Can't see the pic, all I get is "invalid link".


----------



## suseeb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarKu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who wanna make a big improvement using Havana, i recommend to you all the M2tech Hi-face, I recieved it yesterday and the improvement it did to Havana is unbelivable !
 Much better imaging, bigger and deeper soundstage, more air around the notes, better impact too, well worth 107 euro (150 $) !_

 

Hi Darku, Why our members and Havana owners dont discuss about the

 Mhdt labs own power cable? Is nobody consider that's quality?

 Regards.,

 suseeb.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *suseeb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Darku, Why our members and Havana owners dont discuss about the

 Mhdt labs own power cable? Is nobody consider that's quality?

 Regards.,

 suseeb._

 

Their "power cable" is sort of a new thing ...

 I don't have one. Nor do I want one. But it is, still, sort of new.

 So there.


----------



## mafaldich

Hi all,

 I have listened to my new bought havana for the last 10 days. My system currently is: 
 LAPTOP (windows 7 64 bit, vaio cw series) usb out (a normal usb cable)-->Havana (with the havana power cable and JW WE 2c51 tube)--> BJC interconnect-->Grado RA1 or Arietta-->RS1/HD600/k501

 Compared with my previous source (Echo Indigo IOx), the vocals and midrange are s lot better. I think it is the so-called musicality. However, I felt that on some records the resolution is a bit lower, sometimes I feel a veil there. Also the bass is not as deep as Indigo (test by e.g. dream theater's image and words or The Rock OST) and the sound stage is clearly narrower (test by Kleiber beethoven symphony no.5&7 DG and other symphonies). Considering the price gap between the two, honestly I am a little disappointed. I think the burn-in process should have been finished (more than 100 hrs on havana). Could someone give me some prescription about the phenomenon? I am wondering if it is due to the USB output. Thank you. And sorry for my poor English.

 Scott


----------



## jjinh

Okay, I've now got a better response regarding the condition of my faceplate.
   
  Apparently the company that was machining the face plates decided to increase the speed of the machining tool. Because of the increased speed more heat was produced, the increased heat 'hardened' the acrylic and made it brittle. This is why the edges were developing chips.


----------



## dura

mafaldich said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have listened to my new bought havana for the last 10 days. My system currently is:
> LAPTOP (windows 7 64 bit, vaio cw series) usb out (a normal usb cable)-->Havana (with the havana power cable and JW WE 2c51 tube)--> BJC interconnect-->Grado RA1 or Arietta-->RS1/HD600/k501
> ...





 USB seems to sound less good then coax. You might be interested in the M2tech us to Coax converter, see Darku's recent posts in this tread. Having said that the Havana sounds different then mainstream up/oversampling the devices. The latter seems more extended in bass and teble, giving a larger soundstage and more details. But tonality suffers, the Havana is the other way around. It is a matter of taste, I absolutely love the Havana but I never got along with the majority of CDPs and DACs, feeling they sounded unnatural and edgy. Some albums sound rolled off (veiled) but I don't mind too much, preferring this to other digital nasties. But YMMV, in this review it is nicely formulatd: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1208/mhdt_labs_havana.htm


----------



## mafaldich

Thanks for your response, dura. I will try the hiface definitely. It seems I need to wait till mid May for it to be in stock in tweekgeek again.
   
  I changed the fuse to hifi-tuning fuse yesterday. The resolution and soundstage improved significantly. Now I am more comfortable with it when listening to symphonies. However, I still hope it can be better when coupled with hiface. After using echo indigo for several years (from pcmcia version to express card), I am so familiar with its sound and can't help using it as a benchmark.
   
  @jjinh:
  my havana also has the same rough edge in the inner side. Well, I think I can live with it....at least, it is not on the front side.


----------



## sk3383

It will pass it through as 16/44.
   
  It is capable of 16 or 24 bits, passing though the following sample rates: 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4khZ, 192kHz


----------



## Weez

I’m thinking of replacing the stock fuse but I’m not sure how to replace it. I opened up my Havana and located the fuse. How do you remove the plastic top cover and get the fuse out? It’s probably simple as hell but I don’t want to pull anything in the wrong direction or with too much force. : p


----------



## mafaldich

You can rotate the plastic top horizontally, either clockwise or counterclockwise. Then it will loosen.
   
   
   
  Scott


----------



## Weez

Thanks.
  After the plastic top is removed I guess the removal of the actual fuse is straight forward?
   
  I’ll probably go for the HiFi Tuning Fuse Slow 400mA.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I would like to mention this again ..... Have with V-Caps output capacitors replace is awesome...


----------



## suseeb

Quote:Hi DarKu, If I want to change the 'stock fuse' of Havana,then which type & specification of fuse to be replaced?
  Slow glow or fast glow? For what Amps? Please let me know. Thank you.
  Cheers.


darku said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## suseeb

Quote:Hi DarKu, If I want to change the 'stock fuse' of Havana,then which type & specification of fuse to be replaced?
  Slow glow or fast glow? For what Amps? Please let me know. Thank you.
  Cheers.


darku said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## zaccio

Hi OutdoorXplorer,
  Where have you bought the V-Caps ?I need to order 4 for me and a friend. The Hiface is also awesome I'll compare with the Squeezebox Touch this week-end


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Quote: 





zaccio said:


> Hi OutdoorXplorer,
> Where have you bought the V-Caps ?I need to order 4 for me and a friend. The Hiface is also awesome I'll compare with the Squeezebox Touch this week-end


 
   
  You can have the V-Caps here http://www.vhaudio.com/


----------



## suseeb

Quote:Hi s1rrah, Have you replaced the stock fuse in Havana with HiFI Tuning for what specification? Slow glow? Amps?
  Please let me know. Thank you.
  Cheers. 


s1rrah said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *OutdoorXplorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## s1rrah

Yes ... I did replace the fuse with the HI Fi Tuning variety. I don't recall the exact fuse I used but I do remember I went off of what was written on the PCB/circuit board, just beneath the fuse. Also, I think there is mention of it in this thread somewhere ...
   
  Best.
  .joel


----------



## s1rrah

UPDATE: You want the "Hi Fi Tuning Fuse SLOW 400ma" ... just did  a search of the thread and found it ...


----------



## Weez

I received my HiFi tuning fuse today and I can definitely say it made a positive impact. Who would have thought fuses made a difference before joining Head-Fi?  What surprised me the most though was how the orientation of the fuse affected the outcome of the sound signature. I prefer the fuse mounted with the arrow pointing towards the acrylic panel. The other way around rendered my system sounding relatively “thin”. It somehow lost a bit of the round and warm characteristics which make the Havana fun to listen to.  The midrange however became clearer when having the fuses mounted with the arrow pointing towards the rear panel. And the sound got a little wider, or well not so “centered”.
   
  Capacitors next? : P


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





weez said:


> I received my HiFi tuning fuse today and I can definitely say it made a positive impact. Who would have thought fuses made a difference before joining Head-Fi?  What surprised me the most though was how the orientation of the fuse affected the outcome of the sound signature. I prefer the fuse mounted with the arrow pointing towards the acrylic panel. The other way around rendered my system sounding relatively “thin”. It somehow lost a bit of the round and warm characteristics which make the Havana fun to listen to.  The midrange however became clearer when having the fuses mounted with the arrow pointing towards the rear panel. And the sound got a little wider, or well not so “centered”.
> 
> Capacitors next? : P


----------



## Weez

Well, I switched back and forth so that is a pretty strong placebo pill. But yeah, that’s my highly subjective opinion. I don’t have any scientific measurements, as with many things audio related; take it with a pinch of salt.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





weez said:


> Well, I switched back and forth so that is a pretty strong placebo pill. But yeah, that’s my highly subjective opinion. I don’t have any scientific measurements, as with many things audio related; take it with a pinch of salt.


 

 It's a very strong pill.  Stronger than you could ever realize.
   
  But you can easily check this for yourself.  Find the orientation where your magic fuse sounds the absolute best and record a minute or so directly into your computer from the headphone jack, with Audacity, and save it as a WAV.  Now install the factory fuse and do the same without changing any of the settings.  Give both files exactly the same name so you can't tell them apart and play them in foobar.
   
  Although this is not a scientific test, the results will still be a bitter pill to swallow.
   
  USG


----------



## 1stimer

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> It's a very strong pill.  Stronger than you could ever realize.
> 
> But you can easily check this for yourself.  Find the orientation where your magic fuse sounds the absolute best and record a minute or so directly into your computer from the headphone jack, with Audacity, and save it as a WAV.  Now install the factory fuse and do the same without changing any of the settings.  Give both files exactly the same name so you can't tell them apart and play them in foobar.
> 
> ...


 
   
 ABX Comparator _By: Peter_
  Performs a double-blind listening test between two tracks.
   
  http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx


----------



## suseeb

Quote:Thanks s1rrah, I think it's gold plated caps. I will get. I am just collecting the things to upgrade
  the Havana before I buy that. Yes, yet to buy Havana. But I bought tubes- Tungsol 2c51 D getter, Bendix 6385 red bank.
  I am searching for Zu-Birth mains cable( according to your recommendation in an other post).
  Thank you,
  Cheers. 


s1rrah said:


> UPDATE: You want the "Hi Fi Tuning Fuse SLOW 400ma" ... just did  a search of the thread and found it ...


----------



## suseeb

Quote: Is that Large size or Small? and Silver or Gold?. Thank you. 





s1rrah said:


> UPDATE: You want the "Hi Fi Tuning Fuse SLOW 400ma" ... just did  a search of the thread and found it ...


----------



## mafaldich

Small and Gold. AFAIK, there is no 400mA for silver.


----------



## dura

How about this one?: http://www.tweaks4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=21&products_id=1889 Got it myself. Haven't AB-ed it though, nor tested if it is directional. Edit: Note that this is a 250V fuse.


----------



## mafaldich

I could not find the 400mA silver before on the web, thanks.
   
  And some updates about my Havana experience. I received my hiface yesterday and have been running it continuously since then. What I want to say is, compared to USB input, it improves the performance A LOT!!! 
   
  My chain is now: Laptop-->Hiface-->BJC coaxial-->Havana-->BJC interconnect-->RA1 (Arietta)-->RS1 (HD600,K501)
   
  Now the sound stage greatly widens, before all sound seems clustered in a central part, especially with RS1. And the high and low extension is much better than my previous soundcard Echo Indigo. The bass is deeper now.
   
  Roughly speaking, I feel the performance of Havana increases from 60% to 90%. I am very satisfied with it now!! And I really enjoy the non-fatigue sound of havana. I can hardly listen to RS1 more than one hour before and need some rest, but now I am comfortable with listening to it. When listening to symphonies with HD600, I am very pleased with the sound stage.
   
  I am not sure whether all these changes is because the hiface is really that good, or it is because the USB input on havana is much worse compared with coaxial input (or the USB port of my laptop or my USB cord). I never tried any other USB/SPDIF device.


----------



## dura

Tip: if someone here uses the Squeezebox Classic, like me, with FLAC-files, set the server to pump out PCM instead of FLAC; this causes the server to ' unzip' FLAC to PCM instead of the Squeezebox. There is a clearly noticeable improvement in SQ.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





dura said:


> Tip: if someone here uses the Squeezebox Classic, like me, with FLAC-files, set the server to pump out PCM instead of FLAC; this causes the server to ' unzip' FLAC to PCM instead of the Squeezebox. There is a clearly noticeable improvement in SQ.


 

 Humm, I wonder why that should be???
   
  USG


----------



## dura

Theory on Slimdevices forum where I got the tip is that the Classic has a notorious dirty digital output; letting the processor work harder gives more pollution. Don't know if that is true, but the difference is clear and benificial.


----------



## zaccio

If you plug the Hiface without the coax cable ( DIY Neutrik male rca adapter on Hiface  with cheapo 50cm usb extension cable the sound improve again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Halide-Design-Bridge-Review


----------



## mafaldich

Quote: 





zaccio said:


> If you plug the Hiface without the coax cable ( DIY Neutrik male rca adapter on Hiface  with cheapo 50cm usb extension cable the sound improve again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  It sounds interesting..but I have no DIY skill....
  What if I try an male to male adapter like this:
  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102663
  And use an external USB hub to connect Hiface and laptop?
  Will it be any further improvement in SQ?


----------



## zaccio

For me yes the sound is better with only usb cable ( or without if possible ) Even the best coax cable can't be better then no cable at all ...the male to male adapter is also a good solution.
http://www.zenn.com.sg/zero_connector.htm


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





dura said:


> Theory on Slimdevices forum where I got the tip is that the Classic has a notorious dirty digital output; letting the processor work harder gives more pollution. Don't know if that is true, but the difference is clear and benificial.


 


 Thanks dura.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





zaccio said:


> If you plug the Hiface without the coax cable ( DIY Neutrik male rca adapter on Hiface  with cheapo 50cm usb extension cable the sound improve again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 IIRC the opposite sounds better, which is why the HiFace plugs directly into the computer eliminating the USB cable completely. 
   
  If you logic it out, the HiFace could have been made either way.  Direct plug into the DAC with a long USB cable or a direct plug into the computer with a long coaxial cable.  I would like to assume the designers listened to it both ways and chose the best sounding implementation.
   
  For an improved sound from a HiFace, check out jkeny's HiFace mods. 
   
  USG


----------



## eelekim

Hi all,
   
  I'm new to this forum. What brought me here is Havana. I've got mine in used condition. It looks fine but didn't work well. I found that one of the Japan PCM56P DAC chips is faulty. Mhdt was so nice to send me a new pair of Korea PCM56P-L. Now my Havana sings with lovely sound. 
   
  I'm wondering why you guys haven't explored much about replacing the chips. I surely don't want to go for any hard mods like changing the caps. I'm interested in trying other chips. I've bought a pair of PCM56P-K and a pair of AD1856N-K. Will surely report my findings here.
   
  I've tried JW WE 396A but prefer the stock GE... If I have a chance, I'd like to see if other hot tubes can do better to my ears. With the GE, I'd like to tighten up the mid-bass. Considering to replace my Furutech PC with Kimber PK10 Palladian. What do you think?
   
  I'd like to replace the stock fuse too. Hi-Fi Tuning or Furutech? Any opinion?
   
  I've owned Benchmark DAC1, Lavry DA-10 and Mytek Stereo96. They're all very good soundwise. But they can't pull me into music. Havana can. With it, I just want to listen to music non-stop. Wonderful.
   
  Best regard,
  mike


----------



## s1rrah

RE: "tighten up mid bass"
   
  In my talks with some of the designers of the Havana, I recall them mentioning that swapping the main output cap for a smaller uF size can work wonders for this.
   
  RE: "fuse"
   
  I'm using the Hi-fi Tuning Fuse and have enjoyed it for nearly a year now. I did indeed notice an improvement in sound quality (mostly cleanliness, and background noise regarding).
   
  RE: "JW WE 396A"
   
  Have to disagree, here; I find the JW 396A to be much more enjoyable than the stock tube (but hey, opinions, you know; dime a doze); that said, I was quite pleased to see somebody make the claim that you do. Refreshing.
   
  RE: "DAC chips"
   
  My unit has the original production chips in it (Korea?) not sure. It's about two years old (mas o minos). And like you, it was a relevatory experience the first time I listened to it, sucking me into a simply enjoyment of the music like no other machine I'd heard ever did.
   
  ...
   
  Best ...
   
  And post on as you experiment with new components.
   
  BTW: I use a Black Sands Violet PC with mine and love it.
   
  Best.
   
  .joel.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





dura said:


> Tip: if someone here uses the Squeezebox Classic, like me, with FLAC-files, set the server to pump out PCM instead of FLAC; this causes the server to ' unzip' FLAC to PCM instead of the Squeezebox. There is a clearly noticeable improvement in SQ.


 
  Quote: 





dura said:


> Theory on Slimdevices forum where I got the tip is that the Classic has a notorious dirty digital output; letting the processor work harder gives more pollution. Don't know if that is true, but the difference is clear and benificial.


 

 I've had a chance to think about this and although I know that it's been reported, I'm having a lot of trouble with this explanation.    It doesn't take that much processor work to decode flac.  Heck, if my Sansa Clip can do it easily, so can a Squeezebox.
   
   
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> RE: "fuse"
> 
> I'm using the Hi-fi Tuning Fuse and have enjoyed it for nearly a year now. I did indeed notice an improvement in sound quality (mostly cleanliness, and background noise regarding).
> 
> ...


 
   
   
*Perhaps it might be worth while for all new members reading about tweaks such as these fuses,* *to stop by the *
*Sound Science Forum  and discuss the various pros and cons of these things before actually spending any money.*
   
  USG


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> *Perhaps it might be worth while for all new members reading about tweaks such as these fuses,* *to stop by the *
> *Sound Science Forum  and discuss the various pros and cons of these things before actually spending any money.*


 
   
   
  I think you see things too desperately, dispassionately and granular. My opinion, of course.
   
  I mean look at your own amp and DAC inventory for instance (quite damn respectable BTW). If components don't matter (a simple electrical fuse being a component, simply a minor one) then why not just drive all your headphones with your portable and the cheapest amp you can find? Why invest in any other gear otherwise if the build and components don't make a difference? Or is it just that certain components make a difference but others don't?
   
  Your sort of like the guy somewhere else here on these forums saying that his little machine generated sound graphs are proof that the very expensive HiFiMan player isn't any better than a Sansa Clip (that it's in fact not as good, even!) since a machine interpreted the signal a certain way.
   
  Which, just speaking philosophically, is about the most inane thing anyone can say since they are, in essence, comparing a human being, with all of our subtle means of interpreting sound...emotionally, physically, spiritually, personally, historically, etc. ... and then comparing that to a machine which simply analyzes the electronic qualities of a signal. It's almost insulting, really.
   
  But anyway, the main reason I think we talk about these things and get caught up in them is because it's fun to do so.
   
  So I say, no, don't visit the Ghey Science Forum (is that what it was called?); no, in fact, go spend your money on having a good time and what your heart/ears/mind tell you the difference is (whether they are lieing or not!); cause personally, I don't care to reduce my passions down to machine interpretation.
   
  But that's just me.
   
  And I apologize, that was all very UN-Havana-like of me, breaking topic like that, but then again so was that which inspired it.
   
  That said, I apologize for the topic swerve.
   
  Now, please carry on. I'm gonna go switch the polarity of my fuse now.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I think you see things too desperately, dispassionately and granular. My opinion, of course.
> 
> I mean look at your own amp and DAC inventory for instance (quite damn respectable BTW). If components don't matter (a simple electrical fuse being a component, simply a minor one) then why not just drive all your headphones with your portable and the cheapest amp you can find? Why invest in any other gear otherwise if the build and components don't make a difference? Or is it just that certain components make a difference but others don't?
> 
> ...


 

 Ah, a personal attack and an attempt to discredit science and technology. 
   
  I stand by my suggestion.
   
  USG


----------



## dura

I've a brother who is an engineer, he likes measuremens that lead to numbers that can be compared to other numbers.
  He also likes red wine, and so do I.
  Usually the only numbers on a bottle are the price, percentage alcohol and year.
  In his view, these should be high, high and low to get the best.
  I buy on my one subjective non-scientific taste, sharing with friends and experience, without zero hypotheses, control groups and usually I'm not quite sober when making judgements.
  Where do you think you can get the best glass of wine?


----------



## niamex

Hi,
  I am following the thread from a long time and decided to try the Havana. I have to admit that I don't have any experience with headphones and I do not think I will ever try but that is not pushing me out of this forum I believe.
  My first feelinngs after setting up time and burning time for the original tube, was not let's say very impressive therefore I decided to go for an upgrade. First thing was to change the two DAC's implemented there. It is good to know that at the end of the chips mfg there is quality control where the best items are marked K, the next good are J and so so meeting the requirements are without grade - simply PCM 56 P. What remains in the basket is marked L and sold cheap. So I do not make any comment, just triyng to see the things rignt /i am a lawyer/ OK you get somewhere an old Japanese CD player / Technics or Sony etc, - I have a listing with all old models using PCM56P/ and take out the original Japanese /no Korea or Malaisia/ Burr Brouwn PCM chips - they have there everything exept L grade ?!? It is OK for today - you are getting tired. I could continue if you are interested.
  Regards,
  Ignat, Sofia, Bolgaria


----------



## s1rrah

The Havana DAC continues to rock my ****!! Especially with all my custom fuses and silver wiring and caps! It rocks me! 
   
  (all tweaks included!)
   
  Just like this parrot did to this documentary film maker. (seriously). JUST like this:
   





   
  (check it; Havana style!)
   




   
  LOL.


----------



## eelekim

I've got my PCM56P-K. Replaced the L-grade ones. After 24 hours of break-in, I found the result is better. Sharper imaging with more details and tighter bass. I especially like the tighter bass. I'm wondering what differences will be made with the forthcoming AD1856N-K.


----------



## niamex

So you are just confirming what I have written in my previuos post. The Japan made chips should be even better - even lpwer grades - J and nongrade. Some ppl in the net prefer no grade .after a lot of tests/. AD are said to be more digital but you can believe only your own ears.


----------



## niamex

*There you can find real Japanese BB PCM56P stuff*
   
*NEC CD-810 2 x PCM56P-J KSS-123A
 ONKYO DX-6640 2 x PCM56P ?SM5817AP KSS-152A
 PIONEER PD-515 2 x PCM56P-J ?SM5807EP
 PIONEER PD-7070 2 x PCM56P-J ?SM5807EP PWY
 PIONEER PD-7100 2 x PCM56P-J ?PD0036 PWY1009
 PIONEER PD-M700 2 x PCM56P-J PWY1009
 SANSUI CD-a907 4 x PCM56P ? Magnetic
 SANSUI CD-E910 2 x PCM56P
 SANSUI CD-X701i 2 x PCM56P-S KSS-152A
 SONY CDP-222ES 2 x PCM56P-J ?CX23034 KSS-151A
 SONY CDP-490 2 x PCM56P KSS-240A
 SONY CDP-590 2 x PCM56P KSS-240A
 SONY CDP-670 2 x PCM56P ? CXD2550 KSS-210A
 SONY CDP-770 2 x PCM56P ? CXD2550 KSS-210A
 TECHNICS SL-P350 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3404 SOAD 70
 TECHNICS SL-P550 2 x PCM56P-J SOAD 70
 TECHNICS SL-P770 2 x PCM56P-J + 2 x PCM56P SOAD 70
 TECHNICS SL-P990 4 x PCM56P-J SOAD 70
 TECHNICS SL-P999 4 x PCM56P-J ?SM5813AP SOAD 70A
 TECHNICS SL-P1300 4 x PCM56P-K + 2 x MB671431 SOALP 1200
 TELEFUNKEN HS895 2 x PCM56P ?YM3433 KSS-210A
 VICTOR XL-Z521 2 x PCM56P OPTIMA-4
 VICTOR XL-Z621 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3414
 VICTOR XL-Z711 2 x PCM56P-J
 YAMAHA CDX-600 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3414 TAOHS-JP3
 YAMAHA CDX-700 1 x PCM56P-J MLP-7
 YAMAHA CDX-710 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3414 TAOHS-JP1
 YAMAHA CDX-800 2 x PCM56P-J
 YAMAHA CDX-810 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3414 TAOHS-JP3
 YAMAHA CDX-900 2 x PCM56P-J TAOHS-DG1
 YAMAHA CDX-1000 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3023
 YAMAHA CDX-1100 2 x PCM56P ? YM3404 MLP-7
 YAMAHA CDX-1110 2 x PCM56P-K TAOHS-HGI
 YAMAHA CDX-2000 2 x PCM56P-K MLP-7
 YAMAHA CDX-2200 2 x PCM56P-K ?YM3404 MLP-7
 YAMAHA CDX-5000 2 x PCM56P-K MLP-7
 YAMAHA CDX-10000 2 x PCM56P-K ?YM3404-Gold MLP-7
 YAMAHA DX-U1 2 x PCM56P-K ?YM3623B DAC
*


----------



## eelekim

I'm satisfied with the current sound so much that I doubt I'll replace the PCM56P-K chips with AD1856N-K. It's pretty hard for me to take the chips out... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 May I know the easiest and safest way to do this? Thanks!


----------



## niamex

You have to make a so called "chip extractor". For tha Havana PCM it shoul be - no it is stupid to explain. I do not know how to upload a picture, otherwise I can mail you a pic of mine. Better give me yr e-mail and I'll attach it there


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> The Havana DAC continues to *rock *my ****!! Especially with all my custom fuses and silver wiring and caps! *It rocks me*!
> 
> (all tweaks included!)
> .


 

 LOL,  you're very funny.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





niamex said:


> You have to make a so called "chip extractor". For tha Havana PCM it shoul be - no it is stupid to explain. I do not know how to upload a picture, otherwise I can mail you a pic of mine. Better give me yr e-mail and I'll attach it there


 

 You can use a long nose pliers.  Just be gentle.
   
  USG


----------



## niamex




----------



## niamex

Sending a photo of the extractor


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> LOL,  you're very funny.


----------



## suseeb

Quote:     Hi niamex, this is my e-mail id, suseeb@indiatimes.com. please send the picture of "chip extractor" to me too.                              Thanks in advance.
                 Regards.
                 suseeb.


niamex said:


> You have to make a so called "chip extractor". For tha Havana PCM it shoul be - no it is stupid to explain. I do not know how to upload a picture, otherwise I can mail you a pic of mine. Better give me yr e-mail and I'll attach it there


----------



## niamex

Hi Suseeb,
  it is already there. Just disasemble one old blade from your car, take out the steel crap from the rubber plate and using a pliers bend it as you see at the picture. It really easy job. Than be carefull and pull gently the chip side by side untill it is out. That's all.
  Best


----------



## niamex




----------



## s1rrah

I think I'm starting to like this guy.
   

  
  Quote: 





niamex said:


>


----------



## niamex

Sirrah, try to find a Russian NOS tube 6n3p-*E* , for my ears sounds better than JW.  I think listening to  the other Russian stock - 6n3p, 6n3p-I, 6n3p-dr is timewasting.
  Best


----------



## dura

My preference is the JJ6386; Smoother, more extended en bigger soundstage then my JW WE 396.


----------



## niamex

I've never had a JJ and planning to get it but try 6n3p-E and compare. Price was funny 0 about 3 US a pc.


----------



## niamex

here you are
  http://www.tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=176


----------



## niamex

That's all I have for the timebeing
  Cheers


----------



## freakmax

Anybody use Havana with Mac?
  How does it sound out of USB?
  I'm looking for an upgrade for my apogee duet.
  This really looks tempting.


----------



## niamex

As far as I am concened, no idea, sorry. I do not use MAC niether USB.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

freakmax, you will find lot of upgrade ideas in the thread ref. tube rolling, dacs rolling, caps, resistors, power supply etc. Almost all of them work, believe me. Just be persistant and go step by step always ready to go back in case you do not see an improvment. I have taken out all the caps one by one listening some time after any replacement. Otherwise you will loose the base. Have a look at the mods in the net as well.


----------



## freakmax

Thanks for your info, naimax.





  I never do any mod before .I'm not skillful with this kind of thing.
  Maybe it's time to start learning.


----------



## niamex

Hm, than you better get some experience soldering. Delicate job, you can spoil the unit or PCB by unexperiensed move. In the meantime you can enjoy rolling tubes and dacs. Freely ask for assistance.
  Cheers.


----------



## jjinh

Quote: 





niamex said:


> here you are
> http://www.tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=176


 

 $1.30 - these things are so cheap


----------



## Rudivanb

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> The Havana DAC continues to rock my ****!! Especially with all my custom fuses and silver wiring and caps! ...


 
  Thank you *s1rrah* and others for mentioning the fuse upgrade. I am amazed how much of a difference it makes. Tried the stock fuse, an AHP, a Hifi-tuning gold caps and a Padis (Fututech) fuse, all treated with Mapleshade's Silclear. The Padis is most to my taste; most transparent and grip on the sound in all frequency ranges. Tried them with both very good and less good recordings.
 A very good DAC became even better


----------



## niamex

Hi *Rudivanb,*
  Nice to share your experience, thanks !
  Have you installed a Padis 0,5 A instead of 0,4 as originally mounted in the Havana /since Furutech do not have 0,4 A/ ?
  Regards


----------



## Rudivanb

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Hi *Rudivanb,*
> Nice to share your experience, thanks !
> Have you installed a Padis 0,5 A instead of 0,4 as originally mounted in the Havana /since Furutech do not have 0,4 A/ ?
> Regards


 

 Thank you for the welcome *Niamex*. Using 315 mA, because power here is 230VAC think I can use a bit lower value. Am wondering though what I would hear if using the same brand / type in a higher value, like 0.5A


----------



## btbluesky

So where do you guys buy the Padis fuse?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





btbluesky said:


> So where do you guys buy the Padis fuse?


 

 Second that ... would also like to try one.


----------



## niamex

http://www.furutech.com/a2008/product2.asp?prodNo=303  - that;s Padis
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Sorry, I may be wrong anout Furutech , anyhow I got the padis fuses offer from info@progressiveaudio.de
  Rgds


----------



## Rudivanb

Lots of online shops in Germany sell the Padis fuses. Furutech are Padis fuses, but they say:
 "further improved by demagnetization and a high-tech deep-cryogenic treatment. Padis fuses do not inhabit these characteristics".
 Furutech fuses cost considerably more. Maybe the extra costs are worth it? Demagnetization I have done myself by giving them several runs on a Furutech RD-2 demagnetizer.


----------



## btbluesky

Um, I should clarify. Any good retailer within US that we can try the furutech?
  I see xtremecables.com But any bigger, trustworthy retail u guys get it from?


----------



## haveblue

Is it better to use the USB or coax input on the Havana when linking it up to a motherboard with onboard audio (Realtek ALC888 chipset)  running WASAPI?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





haveblue said:


> Is it better to use the USB or coax input on the Havana when linking it up to a motherboard with onboard audio (Realtek ALC888 chipset)  running WASAPI?


 

 Personal preference, I'd reckon.
   
  I run coax out of an Auzentech Prelude sound card's digital out. I've never much cared for the sound of the USB option on the Havana. It's not "bad" by any means, but I think coax is better sounding, personally. But hey, at least it's an option, eh? Furthermore, I also like the sound of coax better than optical, too.
   
  Rock it.


----------



## suseeb

Hi Weez, Please clear my confusions that : In Paradisea v1, the fuse to be fixed as the 'arrow' is facing towards front side,
   
  isnt it? Are you sure?  Can we put 500mA instead of 400mA?. Is Furutech better than Hifi tuning? Please share your
   
  experiences regarding replacing the fuses.
   
  Thank you,
   
  Regards,
   
  suseeb   

  
  Quote: 





weez said:


> I received my HiFi tuning fuse today and I can definitely say it made a positive impact. Who would have thought fuses made a difference before joining Head-Fi?  What surprised me the most though was how the orientation of the fuse affected the outcome of the sound signature. I prefer the fuse mounted with the arrow pointing towards the acrylic panel. The other way around rendered my system sounding relatively “thin”. It somehow lost a bit of the round and warm characteristics which make the Havana fun to listen to.  The midrange however became clearer when having the fuses mounted with the arrow pointing towards the rear panel. And the sound got a little wider, or well not so “centered”.
> 
> Capacitors next? : P


----------



## lahtis

Does anyone have idea how well Havana would get along with Mad Ear+ HD? I do really considering Havana to be my next DAC but i would like to know how good synergy it would have with that Mad Ear. Since i think no one did test it yet with Mad Ear+ Super HD II which i have in order but that would say already something if someone did test it with that normal Ear+.


----------



## jjinh

I recently got a new faceplate to replace my faulty (i.e. scratched) one, yeah!  =D


----------



## lahtis

Or anyone have Havana and some other tube headphone amp since i'm curious how it sound if have tube DAC and tube amp or should i get transistor DAC?


----------



## twylight

ive run a variety of amps behind the havana, they sound so nice (the havana)
   
  Here is the order of enjoyment:
   
  Havana DAC
  Room treatments and math if speakers
  FLAC or CD source >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mp3
  Amps
   
  I use my havana with speakers and headphones, mostly speakers now.  I usually can level match and not tell the difference between four figure amps - the Havana I can get 50 times out of 50 when I have someone A/B it for me blind - I love the sound, its just more alive...I wish there were better terms to describe - a song not on the havana will not give me goose bumps - same song, same gear, level matched thru the havana and I look like a plucked chicken.  I really cant explain it very well.
   
  I use coax, with monoprice cut length wires, have meters for leveling matching and tuning.  I have a non cyro we496a 195x? tube in it - love it - going to try a cyro sometime for grins.
   
  I love the Havana so much I am starting to look for a second for my work system.
   
  I would buy a high quality chinese (audio GD) solid state amp and call it a day...if you are using speakers do the room treatments before doing anything else.


----------



## btbluesky

The Havana opened my ears to what's good sound (vs an all SS *accurate* sound...). Get some good Single-ended Triode (2a3/45/300b...many) and a Full range speakers (cheap ones:decware, tekton, madisound fostex kit, Wild Burro..., mid: audio note used, johnblue). Or if it's not too practical in your application, get something like Coincident Triumph Extreme Signature (94db).
  you will be amazed. I really picked my jaw off the floor the first time I heard fostex in OB.
   
  Bruce Lee, after learning bunch of styles, deduced that speed is most important, everything comes afterward. So he trained the muscle to be lean and high-den, as well as heighten reflex. Same thing here, phase, time alignment....all these sub elements contribute to->SPEED across all freq, that is the key to cheating our ears/brain to believing it's live performance.
   
  ok, going back to havana. I have a trafomatice headphone amp using as preamp into dared VP-300B w/ EH 300B->tekton OB4.5(soon to be OB6.5). extreme bass shy, true, but the realism and staging (again, it comes from time coherency...speed) is truly amazing.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





lahtis said:


> Or anyone have Havana and some other tube headphone amp since i'm curious how it sound if have tube DAC and tube amp or should i get transistor DAC?


 

 I've used the Havana with a Ray Sam Raptor tube amp for well over a year and absolutely love it.


----------



## bdh

Quote: 





btbluesky said:


> The Havana opened my ears to what's good sound (vs an all SS *accurate* sound...). Get some good Single-ended Triode (2a3/45/300b...many) and a Full range speakers ...  but the realism and staging (again, it comes from time coherency...speed) is truly amazing.


 
   
  A few months ago I got back into speakers and picked up a pair of Emerald Physics CS2.3 Open Baffle speakers and a pair of Dali Helicon 400's.  I got a VAC 30/30 (push-pull 300B, not a SET 300B).  The Havana is much better with the speakers than the Empirical modded Benchmark DAC1 is.  It's more open, musical, and natural sounding.  However, in both of my headphone systems I prefer the modded DAC1.  While the Havana can be more a bit more musical, it doesn't make up for the drive, PRAT, and focus of the DAC1 with my headphones.  (And FYI, the modded DAC1 is much better than a stock DAC1.)

 And I will agree with you about OB speakers -- well at least mine, I've never heard any other pair before.  They're so much more real sounding than any speaker I've heard before.  Much better than the B&W 801's I owned a number of years ago and better than the Dali's.  Although the Dali's are better at their intended purpose (for me), which is a 'background' speaker or maybe the term is 'lifestyle' speaker -- the Emerald Physics have a narrow dispersion pattern and the dipole bass requires quite a bit of distance from the back wall.  The EP's soundstage is so holographic and live sounding, I'm truly amazed every time I listen.


----------



## btbluesky

I agree that Havana is definitely not the last word in detail, but it's just musical.
  The Emerald Physics is really something special. How was the software used to tune the speakers? They really innovative with the latest software+hardware combo.
  Still, I cannot trust any crossover, I'd rather give up lower/upper range and crossoverless. A crossoverless high eff. with SET is something magical.


----------



## niamex

Btbluesky - please explain that - A crossoverless high eff. with SET is something magical. I was considering an active crossover before the two power amps - bass and mid/high sections.
  Regards


----------



## bdh

Active how?
   
  I'm considering getting the Prism Orpheus to do the digital crossover.  My biggest fear though is paying so much and not liking the Prism as much as the Havana regardless of all the praise for the Prism's DAC.


----------



## niamex

bdh, look at these - active crossovers
   
http://cgi.ebay.de/KRELL-KRX-Top-Active-Crossover-/330461263811?pt=Audio_Zubeh%C3%B6r
   
http://cgi.ebay.de/Burmster-866-Top-active-Crossover-top-condition-/330461277859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77
   
http://cgi.ebay.de/Behringer-CX3400-Super-X-Pro-Active-Crossover-/330461250952?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77
   
  Rgds


----------



## btbluesky

There are enough technology nowaday to build a truly convincing Single driver (meaning 1 cone) that can do 50Hz-20kHz.
  Take a look at this (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/voxativ/voxativ.html)
  Also, google solovox, ocellia, rethm.
  These are speakers that have no tweeters. Fullranger. The best crossover is no crossover, thats audio101.
   
  Frankly I will never pay for a crossover regardless how good it is. I'd rather invest it in the driver itself.
  SET is single-ended Triode. Single-ended meaning pure class-A setup without any negative feedback.
  If you have world class pure single drivers, you want to feed the purest signal into them. What you get out of it would be very much like the real deal. I have an el cheapo SET high eff setup, and human voice its so convincing and the disappearing act is so good. Oonce anyone hear it, he will never go back to normal 500 watt pullpush/SS going into 5 drivers with crossover the size of a server motherboard.
   
  I advice anyone who is serious about getting good sound (meaing mid to hi fi) shoudl read this
Why The SET And Efficient Loudspeaker
 Approach Works 
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0703/


----------



## btbluesky

One more important info I feel anyone need to know.
  db, the sensitivity of speakers, are in logarithmic base.
  You need double the watt from amplifier for every 3db.
  typical speakers have 86-88db.
  a live concert usually is 96-105db(depends on what kinds....)
  your home has a noise floor of 55db
  meaning if you get a 96db speakers, with 1 watt amp, you can get 96-55=~40db DYNAMIC sound,
  a 86db speakers w/ crossover(itself eats up 1-2watt), you'd need 10watts to do the same thing, cause you need DOUBLE the power everytime to gain 3db.
   
  thats 10x different.
   
  what's 10x get u. A world class 8 watt 300b SET amplifier that cost $1500, vs a world class 80 watt amp thats $15000 that has to pull all the tricks in the books to generate that power in quantity and quality, and a crossover network complex with silver/PCOCC all over.
   
  that's one concrete way to look at it. the other would be the sound. Its much much easier to get 10watt of best sound out of amp, vs 100w.
   
  Always invest in the driver first and foremost. the old school formula is using half the fund for speakers, the other half for everything else, and after many buy/trade, I find that very true.


----------



## realmassy

I'm thinking of this DAC, but I'm not sure if the Havana will work with the Halide Bridge USB/SPDIF converter.
  The Havana has a 16 bit chip (as far as I understand), while the bridge outputs at 24bit: any experience with this converter or the Hiface?


----------



## jjinh

I've used an M2Tech HiFace with my Havana without any issues so I think you should be fine.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Will be trying Logitech Touch 24/96 with Havana later this evening.


----------



## jjinh

Quote: 





outdoorxplorer said:


> Will be trying Logitech Touch 24/96 with Havana later this evening.


 

 Interesting. Please post your impressions later


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





jjinh said:


> I've used an M2Tech HiFace with my Havana without any issues so I think you should be fine.


 

 Thanks jjnh
  I sent an email to the MHDT labs, and Jiun has replied the Havana accepts only 16 bit input.
  If you have used with it with the the Hiface (which outputs 32 bit signal) I guess the Havana will simply ignore the extra bits. This would be fine, since my music library is 99.9% redbook files.


----------



## Dynobot

If anyone is interested in Tubes for their Havana DAC I have some good ones....brand new Never Used.
   
  RCA 5670
  Tung-Sol - 2c51
  Raytheon 5670
   
  Cheap!


----------



## Riffle

Quote: 





outdoorxplorer said:


> Will be trying Logitech Touch 24/96 with Havana later this evening.


 

 I have one on the way too. I'll be replacing my Squeezebox Classic and re-using my Elpac linear power supply with the Touch. Let us know what you think.


----------



## dura

I went from Classic to Touch one month ago. In my system (see sig) the difference was rather big. The Touch sound cleaner and more dynamic on the digital out. The Classic sounded more flat with a rolled off treble, but rather pleasantly musical, a bit tube like. It seems the Classics digital out ( I use coax) is polluted by jitter and RFI, the Touch digital out is very clean, all this I picked up at the slimdevices forum. But it also depends on the DAC. I do not own the Havana anymore, but my guess is the combination with the Touch will be good.


----------



## realmassy

Can someone describe how the Havana sounds with classical musical, especially with large orchestra and symphonic works?
  I'm very very tempted by this dac, being a Valab owner.
  I like the signature of the Valab, but with large orchestral works it shows some limits: distortion and congested soundstage.
  I'm wondering if that is something typical of NOS dacs, or is an issue with the Valab implementation.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Can someone describe how the Havana sounds with classical musical, especially with large orchestra and symphonic works?
> I'm very very tempted by this dac, being a Valab owner.
> I like the signature of the Valab, but with large orchestral works it shows some limits: distortion and congested soundstage.
> I'm wondering if that is something typical of NOS dacs, or is an issue with the Valab implementation.


 


  I can't really comment re: Valab. Sorry.
   
  I do happen to listen to classical (orchestral/chamber/small room/big venue/opera/etc) quite a bit. I'm also, while I'm at it, a huge fan of personally visiting live performances of said music genre's here in Houston.
   
  That said, ... I find nothing but good things in regards to the Havana's reproduction of such works.
   
  True. I listen to Indie, Alt Country, Sludge metal, Post Punk and a bunch of other more less defined genres ... but Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Handel, Schubert, Grossman, Mendelson, Brahms, YO YO ma, Perlman, Schumann, Brainin, etc ... *all* sound disgustingly good out of the Havana DAC. I have no complaints. What's more? Said sorts of music sound organic and real ... not only spacious and true to any given recording ... but *natural* ... be it "woody" ... "brassy" ... "tinny" or "harmonic" ...; it sounds like a live performance. I have especially noted how glorious major choral works (Jesu Meine Freude, etc.) sound through the Havana. 
   
  But I digress ... 
   
  Buy one. If you don't like it (the Havana), you won't have any problem selling it for near it's asking price either here or on Audiogon.
   
  Buene Suerte!
   
  .s1rrah.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I can only tell that I loved my modified Havana.... It was just a simple mod of the output capacitors and fuse..


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





outdoorxplorer said:


> I can only tell that I loved my modified Havana.... It was just a simple mod of the output capacitors and fuse..


 

 Which kind of mod, if I may ask you? Was there something defective?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

These are the enhancements made to the Havana:
   
  * HiFi Tuning Slow 400mA small Fuse for MHDT Havana
 * V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF/250VDC for MHDT Havana
   
  The units were perfectly in great working conditions before the mod.
  
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Which kind of mod, if I may ask you? Was there something defective?


----------



## realmassy

Cheers OutdoorXplorer!
  I guess V-Cap replacement needed some kind of soldering, didn't it?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Yup, just desolder the stock caps and solder the upgraded caps.
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Cheers OutdoorXplorer!
> I guess V-Cap replacement needed some kind of soldering, didn't it?


----------



## mafaldich

MHDT announced a balanced version of Havana. Just found this on their site.
   
  http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana%20balanced.htm
   
  $1145


----------



## jjinh

Quote: 





mafaldich said:


> MHDT announced a balanced version of Havana. Just found this on their site.
> 
> http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana%20balanced.htm
> 
> $1145


 

 Change of case colour too!


----------



## niamex

Funny but they have replaced some caps /with silver mica/ and the resistors around the tubes exactly as in our mods with David of dms-audio.com ? Seems we were on the right side
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You better follow up !


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





darku said:


> In the next month i'm planing to upgrade my Havana with *best *parts available on the market. I want to replace all electrolytic caps with BlackGates (very rare and expesnsive, unfortunately), all film caps (thinking about Jupiter HT for output, and mundorf gold/silver/oil for input - also very expensive) and some resistors (on critical locations), plus a better fuse (furutech or hi-fi tunning) and maybe a teflon tube socket
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Please share some impressions in case you have realized your ambitious project, I am still slowly but surely replacing the stock caps and resistors - one at a time - for the time being still improving the sound. Would go same way as you have described even trying to see what happens if I separate the PS from the mainboard and install another toroidal transformer for separation of the analog from digital section ?
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## realmassy

I finally got the Havana!
  I've found it used here in Europe, at a good price. Finger crossed 
  I've been thinking about the Havana and the Satch dac for a few months, and I'll probably build the Satch anyway, but I was so interested in trying the Havana that I couldn't pass on this.
   
  I'm now going to read the 71 pages of this thread


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I finally got the Havana!
> I've found it used here in Europe, at a good price. Finger crossed
> I've been thinking about the Havana and the Satch dac for a few months, and I'll probably build the Satch anyway, but I was so interested in trying the Havana that I couldn't pass on this.
> 
> I'm now going to read the 71 pages of this thread


 

 Congrats ... post some thoughts once you've acquainted yourself with it.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Congrats ... post some thoughts once you've acquainted yourself with it.


 
  I will!
  Unfortunately I will get it on January as I'm going on holiday now...that's why I crossing my fingers..I hope everything will be fine with the transaction.
  And you s1rrah...you're one of those to blame for my purchase (just kidding) Your thoughts and impressions about this dac have been so convincing, especially when I aked about classical music.
   
  And I've noticed that many of the users that posted their impressions in this thred are still using this dac, and they're still listing it in their signature. This is something reassuring.


----------



## Wood

Let us know how your Halide Bridge benefits it too.
   
  And have nice holiday


----------



## realmassy

I sold the Halide a few months ago (damn...I have to update my profile): I will use a Squeezebox Touch and a Sonos.
  Sometimes I miss that nice converter, but I don't want to use a computer as source.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I sold the Halide a few months ago (damn...I have to update my profile): I will use a Squeezebox Touch and a Sonos.
> Sometimes I miss that nice converter, but *I don't want to use a computer as source.*


 

 Wondering why not?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I finally got the Havana!
> I've found it used here in Europe, at a good price. Finger crossed
> I've been thinking about the Havana and the Satch dac for a few months, and I'll probably build the Satch anyway, but I was so interested in trying the Havana that I couldn't pass on this.
> 
> I'm now going to read the 71 pages of this thread


 

 I'll be following your impressions with anticipation. 
   
  What is it with reading threads...after purchasing a product.  I do the same, though it would make more sense to read before purchase.  I guess the reduction of post purchase anxiety plays a prime role in psychology. 
   
  This new Havana balanced has my interest, I seem to favour Burr Brown chips, R2R and NOS...I also seem to favour rolled off trebles and fat mids.  Perhaps I could sell off my tube amp and use a tube source for my upcoming Phoenix as a compliment to pure solid state presentation.  Then again, it'd probably be so much cheaper just to purchase an ebay kit.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Wondering why not?


 
  They're noisy, they have too many available configurations, options, tweaks etc etc and I just want to listen to my music.
  I'm a software engineer, love computer for my work but I don't for my entertainment.
  If I had space I would still be spinning CDs.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'll be following your impressions with anticipation.
> 
> What is it with reading threads...after purchasing a product.  I do the same, though it would make more sense to read before purchase.  I guess the reduction of post purchase anxiety plays a prime role in psychology.


 
  LOL
  very true!!
  Funny thing, before purchasing the havana I noticed only positive reviews...and now only negative :-O


----------



## reiserFS

I'll be jumping onto the balanced Havana near the end of January, looking forward to it. Anyone else thinking about ordering one?


----------



## Mr.Mantas

Looking forward for your review on balanced Havana!
  Comparison between Havana SE and Havana XLR would be really great


----------



## reiserFS

Although I don't own the SE Havana, I'll be comparing it between the Yulong D100, which also received much praise here.
  
  Quote: 





mr.mantas said:


> Looking forward for your review on balanced Havana!
> Comparison between Havana SE and Havana XLR would be really great


----------



## loserica

I upgraded to OIMP V-Cap capacitors and feel the difference. I am happy.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I upgraded to OIMP V-Cap capacitors and feel the difference. I am happy.


 

 I am going the same way so I wander what you have payed to VH for the caps ? I have already replaced many caps and resistors, also installed a BNC for the coax and eliminated the USB and optical inputs., Planning to replace the diodes with schotkeys and separate the digital from analog PS /second transformer/. Even now the Havana sounds sweet I love it. Please share your listening experience after sveral hours with the new caps.
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## realmassy

My Havana will be delivered today, can't wait to come back and listen to it


----------



## realmassy

Listening to the Havana right now.
  I'm the second owner but the previous owner used it only for a few hours, so probably some break-in is till needed.
  It comes with the stock tube.
  Sonos ZP90 --> Havana (coax) --> WA3 (Cardas 300b) -->HD650 (Zu Mobius)
  I also have a netbook with MPD 0.16 to try the USB connection.
  I listen mainly to classical music.
   
  In the last 15 months I tried many DACs: Little Dot DAC_I, V-DAC, DacMagic, X-DAC V3, HRT Music Streamer, Audio-GD Ref.5 and I'm currently using a Valab Luxury. The Valab has been (and it still is) a real love, and my introduction to the NOS world. As I said in a different thread I prefer the Valab to the Ref.5.
   
  First impression of the Havana is...it sounds closer to the Ref.5 than to the Valab!
  There's a great control in the low and high end: percussion and cellos sound more clean and less bloated, transients are slower, with a smaller dynamic impact.
  The stage isn't wider, but deeper, while the Valab has a more intimate presentation. The Valab has also better mycrodynamics: with string quartets you can "feel" the bow over the strings, and you can touch them during the pizzicatos. The Havana sounds softer, and to my ears less detailed.
   
  Where the Havana is absolutely superior is with large orchestra works. Beethoven's 5th (deutsche grammophon, karlos kleiber) is exemplar, never heard so well: a lot of air between instruments and perfect control over percussions. Brasses are particularly great, they don't tend to cover the rest of the orchestra, they are part of it. With the Valab and the Ref.5 they weren't so natural, they sound raw. The result is amazing with period instruments: Beethoven's 7th (van immerseel and anima eterna orchestra) left me speechless.
   
  Going back to listen now!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Listening to the Havana right now.
> I'm the second owner but the previous owner used it only for a few hours, so probably some break-in is till needed.
> It comes with the stock tube.
> Sonos ZP90 --> Havana (coax) --> WA3 (Cardas 300b) -->HD650 (Zu Mobius)
> ...


 

 Thanks for the initial impressions. Very interesting comments. Looking forward to reading more.
   
  BTW: the Havana is quite responsive to tube rolling; for instance, some counterpoint to the impression it sounding a tad "softer" than some of the more analytic DACS (which I happen to agree with, BTW) could possibly be changed via tube rolling.
   
  Some good tubes to try for detail/microdynamics:
   
  1. Bendix 6385 - extremely nice sounding tube; one of the best with the Havana; at the upper end of detail and "air," crisp, great soundstage. I had one for about a year and loved it. Fairly rare and expensive (you would pay between $100 and $300 depending on year and usage)
   
  2. Bendix 2C51 - almost as good as the Bendix 6385, very similar sound, leaning towards detail and "air;" just the tiniest bit more laid back than the 6385, however and soundstage not as impressive but still a fantastic tube ($50 to $100 or so)
   
  ...
   
  My current tube is a _JW_ _branded_ WE396A (JW WE396A) from 1954. It is outstanding and far superior to the earlier year 396A's (I've had a variety and then just decided to drop the $ on a JW 396A from the mid to early 50's as I'd read so much about them and heard a friends in his Paradisea DAC. It's got the detail of the Bendix 6385 but a bit more "meat" and "weight" in the midrange, which I enjoy. If you research this tube, be sure you specifically look for the "JW" variant, which simply means that they were created for military use. The difference is very great. Also, I'm not sure about the post '55 tubes as I've not heard any. You'll pay around $100+ for a NOS tube. 
   
  Have fun.


----------



## realmassy

Thanks s1rrah.
  As always happens when a new toy is in the house, the listening sessions yesterday has been addictive...I couldn't stop!
  I will spend some time during the weekend, my son permitting!
   
  BTW, a few days ago I let him wear my HD650 (he's only 1 year old) connected to the WA3: you can't imagine how big was the grin on his face 
  I put some Mozart's music (concerto for flute and harp) and he listened to it for 15 minutes.
   
  Anyway, I'l try to resist and not to buy any tube replacement for now, I just want to understand how the Havana sounds with the stock one, so I can spot easily the differences.
  Thanks for your suggestions, I'll put an eye on ebay


----------



## loserica

Yes, I agree.  WE396A are very good.


----------



## loserica

[size=medium]
Sorry I have not answered yet.
 V-Cap sound has improved noticeably. Basically, the two capacitors have cost me about $ 132 without transport, but it was worth. The differences with the stock capacitors are especially visible at the level of transparency, texture, sound separation and resolution. The sound is open ... Before instaling V-Cap capacitors, I compared Havana with a Dyi converter of a friend and I noticed something that Havana sounds dark on medium and high frecvents. Transparency! Even the Lavry DA10 I liked more than Havana in this chapter. As vocal, Havana is superior without question, but classical music felt differences. Lavry have a brighter sound.
 After about 100-150 hours of listening to mount V-Cap capacitors felt a change in the sense that I liked Havana increasingly more. Same effect as when I changed the tube (with WE396A).
 I use Havana with a solid state amplifier DIY "eXStatA" based on discrete circuits and a pair of electrostatic STAX SR-404LE "Limited Edition". At this level can honestly say that she felt any change in sound: which may come from the output capacitors, tube, power filter, interconnections,...
   


   



​[/size]


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Sorry I have not answered yet.
> V-Cap sound has improved noticeably. Basically, the two capacitors have cost me about $ 132 without transport, but it was worth. The differences with the stock capacitors are especially visible at the level of transparency, texture, sound separation and resolution. The sound is open ... Before instaling V-Cap capacitors, I compared Havana with a Dyi converter of a friend and I noticed something that Havana sounds dark on medium and high frecvents. Transparency! Even the Lavry DA10 I liked more than Havana in this chapter. As vocal, Havana is superior without question, but classical music felt differences. Lavry have a brighter sound.
> After about 100-150 hours of listening to mount V-Cap capacitors felt a change in the sense that I liked Havana increasingly more. Same effect as when I changed the tube (with WE396A).
> I use Havana with a solid state amplifier DIY "eXStatA" based on discrete circuits and a pair of electrostatic STAX SR-404LE "Limited Edition". At this level can honestly say that she felt any change in sound: which may come from the output capacitors, tube, power filter, interconnections,...
> ...


 

 Just curious:   if you can't go back and A-B it to the original components how do you know that the V-cap sound is improving or is even better, maybe you're just getting used to it over time?  <--- just asking
   
  Did you make any recordings of the original sound that you can compare with the new V-cap sound?    http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm


----------



## loserica

I feel the diferences in the first audition. It must be very prepared to hear that. 
  I say as we did. I heard Havana with a speaker setup for about an hour, may be two hour. I compared with a converter (DYI) made by a friend. Here we have the selector switch quickly, becouse both were conected to the source. 
  After I changed the capacitors, we made comparative audition again. Diferences between the two converters have decreased now. Havana, which sounds slightly dark before it was opened. It became bright. This is the improvement that I thought was significant. 
  Same thing heppened to my setup at home on headphones (actually electrostatics). I immediately felt a slight improvement. Now, everyone can decide if it's worth the price paid. I said firmly, yes!! I heaven't taken after rewiew sites on the net, they flood the pages. I was guided by experience and comparative time audition.


----------



## reiserFS

Update on my balanced Havana: Currently sourcing the money for it, probably until my next paycheck in February. I'll keep you guys updated.


----------



## SP Wild

Please do.  The Havana has earned a formidable reputation on the internet and I have my sights aimed at the balanced unit.  When I run my solid state NOS dac through my tube amp the synergy is quite exquisite.  Perhaps a tube balanced DAC can replace my valve amp? 
   
  I find details where I listen for details...in the midrange body and in this respect I hear more details in my NOS dac than my hi-end DS dac...even though, granted, the hi-end unit has significant greater detailing in an area of the frequency response where I do not seek for details.


----------



## realmassy

Still listening to the new toy, after a few changes I made to the setup.
  I've changed the transport, as I had the feeling the Sonos player was the bottle neck. I'm now using my fanless netbook with Linux Voyage. The system uses a real-time kernel, the latest version of MPD, an SSD for the OS, it's wired to the router and all my music is stored on a NAS. I'm using the USB connection into the Havana.
  I then placed the dac on a granite platform with sorbothane feet, the same I'm using for the Woo amp.
   
  With this setup the USB connection sounds different from the SPDIF of the Sonos, definitely not worse.
  The sound now is more "live", still smooth, but with improved dynamics and faster transients: the differences are not night and day but noticeable.
   
  What strikes me most about the Havana is how easy is on the ears, even with very complex music, like Brahms or Tchaikovsky symphonies.
  I'm not a big fan for example of Karajan, which is supposed to be one of the greatest conductors of Tchaikovsky, but I always hated the sound of many recordings of him, very dry, huge stage...not the intimate presentation I like. Well, it's maybe the enthusiasm for the new dac, but so far I'm enjoying them. 
  And I rediscovered some organ works by Handel I didn't listen to since I sold the Ref.5: the Valab simply couldn't handle them.
  The Havana may not be the most detailed source on the market, but has a fantastic timbre (though as I said before I'm not entirely happy with the piano)  and harmonic richness.
   
  I've also rolled the power tube on my Woo, to balance the sound: the 5998 I used to use was a good match with the raw sound of the Valab, while the GEC 6080 is slightly leaner and refined. I've lost some depth in the stage, which is now less 3D,
   
  So I have to carefully choose the tube I want to use on the Havana, I don't want to loose any magic 
   
  And probably next week I will get a pair of DT880, 600ohm, completely different signature from my HD650.
  I still have to test the Havana with the other headphone amp I have, the Earmax, with its wonderful midrange.


----------



## niamex

That's my recent upgrade - I have almost completed it /there is a lot on the bottom as well/. Ready to share experience if someone is interested. The DAC is jumping into the next category !
  Cheers,
  /Thanks to sirrah for his posts - they made me a fan of Havana/
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## s1rrah

@RealMassy:
   
  Re: Detail ... agreed, there are more clinically detailed DACs out there ...
   
  However, try this for an interesting change in dynamics (also, just a highly favorable tube in the Havana):
   

  6385 type 396A (2C51 or 5670)Bendix Red Bank military, labeled 2C51 MATCHED PAIR
  New old stock, original box. A very scarce, out of production, high-frequency dual triode. These are the ultra-rare Red Bank series made by Bendix for the military. This 396A variant has internal shielding and a 10,000 hour rated heater. Totally plug and play compatible with the 396A, 2C51, and 5670. Awesome sonics, and fast becoming extinct! One tube has a Bendix label with the Bendix Red Bank logo. SINGLE TUBES ARE $100.00 EACH.
  $200.00 per pair
  0

   

   
  http://www.audiotubes.com/audtube.htm
   
  (I'm not real familiar with that seller; was just the first page that came up in a search; it can be difficult to find the Bendix 6385 but at 100 bucks for a NOS Bendix Red Bank (military use) 6385, it's almost a bargain.)
   
  I'd be curious to  hear if your impressions are favorable or  non. I've really wanted to buy another one but  haven't had the coin and am completely enjoying the JW branded 396A tube that I've had in the Havana for a couple years. Either will run you about 100 bucks or more but definitely a worthwhile investment.
   
  Best.


----------



## realmassy

Hi S1rrah,
  and thanks for helping to spend my money 
   
  I haven't updated my impressions, mostly because I've been very deep into the music..less audiophile, more musicophile! Cheers for that, Havana!
   
  A few changes in my setup: I moved my rack in a different corner, changed the power cord and replaced the feet with Soundcare ones. The difference is pretty obvious with deeper stage and more precise separation of layer.
  I haven't tried tube rolling (yet), but the Havana is very responsive to tweaks....I may try the fuse rolling in the future 
   
  One of my test recordings is a Mozart's Bassoon concerto by the Chamber Orchestra of Europe: it's not a perfect recording, but the music is lovely.
  The bassoon slightly on the left, very close to the audience, while the orchestra is in the background. This kind of separation is so "clean", obvious, the orchestra is not blurry... bassoon right in front of you, physical, full of harmonics, warm...and the orchestra in the background, playing its music, and you can hear every note, without loosing focus on the solo instrument. That's the sort of detail I'm looking for, life-like detail...And that's what the Havana delivers. Not players turning their sheet music, if you know what I mean. That sort of detail is just clinical and keep your mind away from music.
   
  Bear in mind I'm still using the USB connection, but I'm planning to build a music server with a ESI Juli@ soundcard. 
  I also have a WE396 coming soon: it's not the JW version unfortunately, and as far as I understand this is a warm, sweet tube.  Maybe not the perfect match...but it was cheap! I'll keep in mind your suggestion (unfortunately the 6385 is not in stock right now), as well as the JJ 6386.


----------



## niamex

http://cgi.ebay.com/bendix-6385-396a-5670-6cc42-/290517887394 - that is the real tube - no label 2c51
  Cheers


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





niamex said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/bendix-6385-396a-5670-6cc42-/290517887394 - that is the real tube - no label 2c51
> Cheers


 

 Thanks niamex!
  Any idea about that tube and the JJ 6386? Price is roughly the same


----------



## burgunder

Wow it better be good at that price!
  Quote: 





niamex said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/bendix-6385-396a-5670-6cc42-/290517887394 - that is the real tube - no label 2c51
> Cheers


----------



## niamex

That is definitely the BEST tube for the HAVANA. OK there are two really rare Bendix tubes which never appear on the market. Will pass you info just for curiosity later today.
  Cheers


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





niamex said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/bendix-6385-396a-5670-6cc42-/290517887394 - that is the real tube - no label 2c51
> Cheers


 


  Had I the money to burn and were I not completely pleased with my current JW396A, I'd jump on that in a second. NOS Red Bank 6385's are very rare and usually sell for even more than that. TubeWorld.com had one recently that was selling for 400 bucks (some whiz bang super "Cryo" thing). Would love to have that tube frome Ebay, though. And all the branding is still visible; that's pretty rad.
   
  Text search on "6385" at this page:
   
  https://www.tubeworld.com/6005.htm
   
  He's got a pair of 1959 (!!!) Bendix 6385's for 750 dollars. Anyone want to go in on the set?
   

   
  JK.


----------



## niamex

I have tried many of them but will share my experience after I complete the mod.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

I am quoting a friend of mine who knows all about the matter -
   
  [size=x-small]bendix 19[/size][size=x-small]64 is more real than JW396a, tighter and deeper bass;[/size]
  [size=x-small]if you look something what will definitely beat the JW396a from 50's, than for look for bendix 6385 rtma from 50's; (genuine tube, best ever produced of this type) - that is a reply to REALMASSY[/size]


----------



## niamex

[size=x-small]Here is some more info about the bendix:[/size]
  [size=x-small]The Bendix Red Bank TE-21 is a 2C51 type dual triode that was produced exclusively by a division of Bendix Aviation during the late '50s and early '60s. It was manufactured solely for the military and was an integral part of the on-board guidance circuitry for ICBMs. [/size][size=x-small]Every TE-21 p[/size][size=x-small]roduced was tested for 100 hours[/size][size=x-small] run-in. [/size][size=x-small]under various overload vibration and shock conditions likely to be encountered in service[/size][size=x-small], and had to match sections exactly, before it was allowed out the door.[/size][size=x-small]The cost, to the government, of every tube produced is estimated to be in excess of $250 (1950s dollars.) In the true cold war, M.A.D. dark humor of the era, the TE-21 was nicknamed the "Commie Smasher" by the plant employees at Red Bank, NJ. It's the only triode whose data sheet graphs characteristics at different altitudes and temperatures (an important consideration in a missile), as well as warm-up time (45 seconds) and minimum service life (10,000 hours.) It has a transconductance of nearly twice any other commercially produced tube of its type. Its amplification factor is in excess of 40 -- versus a factor of 35 for the standard 2C51.....[/size][size=x-small]The tube is higher than standard 2c51 and built like a tank. [/size][size=x-small]Heater cycling - life test - 3000 on-off.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]That was also from the friend of mine. As far as I know there were some quantities produced later - may be 70's but do not spend money for it.[/size]
  [size=x-small]Cheers[/size]


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





niamex said:


> I am quoting a friend of mine who knows all about the matter -
> 
> [size=x-small]bendix 19[/size][size=x-small]64 is more real than JW396a, tighter and deeper bass;[/size]
> [size=x-small]if you look something what will definitely beat the JW396a from 50's, than for look for bendix 6385 rtma from 50's; (genuine tube, best ever produced of this type) - that is a reply to REALMASSY[/size]


 
   
  I really don't know, technically. But it sounds good ... and so, I'd go with your suggestion.
   
  I mean, really ... couldn't hurt (long as one is long in the tooth/coin and all) ... 
   
  (BWAHAHAHAHHAHA!)


----------



## niamex

*S1rahh, please note this one the ebay is not  [size=small]bendix 6385 rtma- it is next good -6385 '64 production and I am sure you will not regret.[/size]*
*[size=small]Cheers[/size]*


----------



## realmassy

I pulled the trigger on that Bendix...I hope I'll end my tube rolling soon :-O


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I pulled the trigger on that Bendix...I hope I'll end my tube rolling soon :-O


 
  Let us know about your impressions after the tube burning time /may be even the first raw sound/


----------



## jona.p

Hmm, been reading these threads about the MHDT kit for a while now. I am considering getting a paradisea 3. I would get the havana but that's really out of my budget. Paradisea is already stretching it. 
   
  I can't audition this one though. I tried a Musical fidelity M1 in my setup, which sounds pretty good. But on fast tracks it's just a tad bit too slow for my liking and I'd really love to get back into tubes. Tube rolling used to be alot of fun with my now gone Darkvoice 336. Right now my setup sounds a little congested I've tried multiple amps and speakers and nothing really sounds quite right. So I figured this must be the dac.. Project USB box, I think I really regret buying this one, the usb box.
   
  any opinions on this upgrade path? I don't think I can go wrong with a dac upgrade. Scared customs will catch it though and add 2x 20%. Anyone care to share some of their opinions on this?


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





jona.p said:


> Hmm, been reading these threads about the MHDT kit for a while now. I am considering getting a paradisea 3. I would get the havana but that's really out of my budget. Paradisea is already stretching it.
> 
> I can't audition this one though. I tried a Musical fidelity M1 in my setup, which sounds pretty good. But on fast tracks it's just a tad bit too slow for my liking and I'd really love to get back into tubes. Tube rolling used to be alot of fun with my now gone Darkvoice 336. Right now my setup sounds a little congested I've tried multiple amps and speakers and nothing really sounds quite right. So I figured this must be the dac.. Project USB box, I think I really regret buying this one, the usb box.
> 
> any opinions on this upgrade path? I don't think I can go wrong with a dac upgrade. Scared customs will catch it though and add 2x 20%. Anyone care to share some of their opinions on this?


 

 I never listened to the Paradisea, but from what I read I don't think it will be a good match if you're looking for something faster than the M1.
  Maybe a good SS Dac?


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Let us know about your impressions after the tube burning time /may be even the first raw sound/


 
  Of course!
  Can't wait to try it. I never spent all this money on a single tube..hope everything will be OK with the seller: I sent him an email yesterday but I got no reply yet...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 EDIT: just got a reply, the Bendix will be shipped out tomorrow!


----------



## twylight

I have both, The havana is less tubey but more detailed...I bought them both used and put new tubes in them (cyro NOS bendix or 396s)
   
  I could never go back to non audio grade DACs now - they sound dead and terrible to me.  I fricking love the MHDT stuff.  I am sure other high end DACs are good too.
   
  I have a Havana with Salk Signature speakers right now and it wrecks my non MHDT build so bad I dont even want to listen to it...buy them used - if you dont like it resell it - they sell in a day or two on the 'gon


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





twylight said:


> I have both, The havana is less tubey but more detailed...I bought them both used and put new tubes in them (cyro NOS bendix or 396s)
> 
> I could never go back to non audio grade DACs now - they sound dead and terrible to me.  I fricking love the MHDT stuff.  I am sure other high end DACs are good too.
> 
> I have a Havana with Salk Signature speakers right now and it wrecks my non MHDT build so bad I dont even want to listen to it...buy them used - if you dont like it resell it - they sell in a day or two on the 'gon


 


  Awesome.


----------



## Towert7

I'm glad to hear MHDT labs finally released a balanced version.
  That was the one thing I wish my Havana was, balanced.
   
  Too bad their website is down.  I would really like to see photos of it.
   
  Edit:  Saw it on e-bay.
  Cool!


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





twylight said:


> I could never go back to non audio grade DACs now - they sound dead and terrible to me.  I fricking love the MHDT stuff.  I am sure other high end DACs are good too.
> I


 

  
  That's with sure but tweaked is even better.  Just for example do you thig the yellow brother will
   
  sing as the Clarity Cap ? I've replaced all of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Cheers


----------



## loserica

@,

   
  @niamex,
   
  Please, tell me step by step, which model of capacitors have been asambled instead of input (0,01u/1Kv), and if you look inside my Havana dac, what I can replace?
  Thank's.


----------



## niamex

Qte
  loserica
  Please, tell me step by step, which model of capacitors have been asambled instead of input (0,01u/1Kv), and if you look inside my Havana dac, what I can replace?
  unqte
   
  Nice looking Vcaps from my friend Chris, one day I will get them as well. I do not know how far you dear to go but it is a long story. Everything has started with David from DMS audio -  http://www.dms-audio.com/havana-dac-mods  and not finished yet. I promise to make a detailed report of the mod after I complete it. Will be in a separate issue - but really long one. At the moment the Havana is breaking up the big output caps  /really big ones/ - sorry for the poor foto -


----------



## realmassy

Got in the mail the Bendix yesterday! perfectly packed and good communication by the ebay seller.
  Two things stand out: the tube is taller than the stock one, and it's really dark (glow less), I can barely say that the dac is on.
  I played some music for a couple of hours, and difference is quite obvious: man this tube is creamy! Greater harmonic richness, especially at lower listening volume. Tonally seems to be slightly warmer than the stock, but it's probably due to the smooooth top end. Honestly I can't wait to came back home and listen!


----------



## russelllemc1

Towert7 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Wow, so this is cool. Gotta say I kinda miss the all acrylic look, but the metal looks nice too.
> 
> ...






It's helpful to me, Thanks for your analysis!


----------



## loserica

Who listened this transport, manufactured by MHDT LAB?
  Seems a nice combination with Havana. Currently, I use Hi-Face (which is moded by rechargeable battery).
   
http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/USBridge.htm
   
  I'm curious if USBridge is higher than Hi-Face.
  Thank's.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Who listened this transport, manufactured by MHDT LAB?
> Seems a nice combination with Havana. Currently, I use Hi-Face (which is moded by rechargeable battery).
> 
> http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/USBridge.htm
> ...


 

 Very interesting. I just sent an email asking for possible Linux compatibility...I'm ready to pull the trigger on it


----------



## robeeert1

Did anyone compare havana balanced version with not balanced?. Description says that :  In RCA connection, this dac is the same as original Havana Dac., is that really true statement?, I know balanced havana needs two tubes to work on rca connection, So how does the new havana sound on rca connection compared with the old one?


----------



## realmassy

I finally got the Halide Bridge to place between the pc and the Havana.
  This is my second Bridge, as I used it in the past with the Audio-GD REf 5. It's a very elegant solution and it sounds great.
  Having said that, the difference with the coax or optical output of the Juli@ that I've used so far is not huge: better channel separation and pinpoint accuracy, slightly more transparency.
  Actually the changes I made to my linux box had more impact on the sound.


----------



## upstateguy

y
  
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I finally got the Halide Bridge to place between the pc and the Havana.
> This is my second Bridge, as I used it in the past with the Audio-GD REf 5. It's a very elegant solution and it sounds great.
> Having said that, the difference with the coax or optical output of the Juli@ that I've used so far is not huge: better channel separation and pinpoint accuracy, slightly more transparency.
> Actually the changes I made to my linux box had more impact on the sound.


 

 Hi
   
  Have you had an opportunity to compare the Halide to any other transports?
   
  USG


----------



## realmassy

I compared the Bridge against an unmodded Hface, on OSX and Pure Music: the Halide sounds fuller, richer while the Hiface is brighter, giving illusion of better detail. The difference was more noticeable with hi-res files. I posted the comparison a few months ago in the Halide thread.
  It's not night and day difference and I think it really depends on personal preference.
  I guess the better dac (and the rest of the rig) the biggest the difference.
   
  While typing I'm listening to Haydn's Symphony No. 85 conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken: very good recording, natural, clear. Strings were brighter on the Juli@, not harsh though. Decay of notes seems longer with the Halide..again 'natural' is the word I'd use to describe the sound. Headphones (DT880 now) literally disappear, and it's like being a few steps from the orchestra...very involving indeed.
  Most of the credits go to the Havana though


----------



## log0

Curious, has anyone compared this amp directly to a Audio-GD Reference 7? I'm considering buy a new Havana Balanced or perhaps a used Reference 7. I wouldn't be able to listen to either one so some impressions would be helpful. I believe the tube output would be something I would very much enjoy and something that sets this DAC apart from many others.


----------



## Amarphael

I have a friend who is very intersted in the Havana, He's looking for a warm and musical DAC for his VS 4jr speakers. He quite liked my CIAudio VDA-2 but he said he's looking for a fuller sound with a better timbre. Now the Havana probaly has those but he's afraid to lose some resolution with NOS. yeah I know it's the most tired question regarding NOS dac so i'll just ask if anyones knows how both stand in terms of detail retrieval, Any input on this would be welcome.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





amarphael said:


> I have a friend who is very intersted in the Havana, He's looking for a warm and musical DAC for his VS 4jr speakers. He quite liked my CIAudio VDA-2 but he said he's looking for a fuller sound with a better timbre. Now the Havana probaly has those but he's afraid to lose some resolution with NOS. yeah I know it's the most tired question regarding NOS dac so i'll just ask if anyones knows how both stand in terms of detail retrieval, Any input on this would be welcome.


 


  I've had both the VDA-2 and the Havana (VDA-2 was my roommates, actually) and although I liked the VDA-2, thought it was quite the respectable DAC, I nonetheless preferred the sound of the tube staged Havana ... a more effortless sound, more involving and seductive.
   
  As far as detail retrieval of a the NOS Havana vs. other DACs (oversampling, etc.) ... I find the detail retrieval to be spot on ... not hyper articulated to the point of being bothersome, like I've heard in other DACs and the overall delivery (as discussed by MHDT) is a very real world, live/analogue sound with excellent detail. The Havana does not sound dull or "blurred" about the edges, though and I think (unless your addicted to sound effects and not music) the micro detail retrieval is perfect.
   
  But I listen through cans and your bud has speakers so I guess the thing to do would be to simply try the Havana ... not a difficult bit of gear to sell if you happen to not like it.
   
  Best.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> As far as detail retrieval of a the NOS Havana vs. other DACs (oversampling, etc.) ... I find the detail retrieval to be spot on ... not hyper articulated to the point of being bothersome, like I've heard in other DACs and the overall delivery (as discussed by MHDT) is a very real world, live/analogue sound with excellent detail. The Havana does not sound dull or "blurred" about the edges, though and I think (unless your addicted to sound effects and not music) the micro detail retrieval is perfect.


 
  Totally agree.
  The Havana offers no wow effect, and with a quick listening I doubt one would be blown away. 
  Its focus is the music, and the naturalness of timbre is its main quality.
 It really shines with acoustic music IMHO: a few days ago I put Kind of Blue after more than 6 months (I'm not much into jazz right now), and the instruments were simply spot on. Adderley's sax was amazing
   
  By the way s1rrah, which tube are you currently using?
  I'm using the Bendix, and initially I couldn't spot much difference with the WE396A (non JW version). I put the WE back a few days ago, but the stage is somewhat flat. Not night and day difference, but it's noticeable when you get used to the sound.
  I'm still thinking of the JJ 6386...


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





log0 said:


> Curious, has anyone compared this amp directly to a Audio-GD Reference 7? I'm considering buy a new Havana Balanced or perhaps a used Reference 7. I wouldn't be able to listen to either one so some impressions would be helpful. I believe the tube output would be something I would very much enjoy and something that sets this DAC apart from many others.


 

 I used to own a Ref.5, and I'd say the Havana is in the same league.
  The Ref.5 was a bit darker, the Havana has better micro-dynamics, but a narrower stage, which is huge on the Ref.5.
  But, the Havana has a tube buffer, and you can play with it to tailor the sound. On the other hand it is more sensitive to the transport.
  Having said that, I think the Ref.7 is definitely a step over both...but I'm not going to spend $1800 for a dac


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> .
> By the way s1rrah, which tube are you currently using?
> I'm using the Bendix, and initially I couldn't spot much difference with the WE396A (non JW version). I put the WE back a few days ago, but the stage is somewhat flat. Not night and day difference, but it's noticeable when you get used to the sound.
> I'm still thinking of the JJ 6386...


 

 Had the JW WE396A in for well over a year now and love it. I liked the Bendix 6385 equally but couldn't pass up selling it when offered a decent amount. I found the JW 369A to be far and away better than the non JW branded, in all ways. 
   
  Best.
   
  .joel
   
  (ps > I too would like to hear the 6386 but have been tickled pink with my desktop rig forever now and don't want to change anything.)


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Had the JW WE396A in for well over a year now and love it. I liked the Bendix 6385 equally but couldn't pass up selling it when offered a decent amount. I found the JW 369A to be far and away better than the non JW branded, in all ways.


 
  Just placed an order for the JW!
  I'll keep you posted


----------



## Amarphael

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I've had both the VDA-2 and the Havana (VDA-2 was my roommates, actually) and although I liked the VDA-2, thought it was quite the respectable DAC, I nonetheless preferred the sound of the tube staged Havana ... a more effortless sound, more involving and seductive.
> 
> ...


 

 My friend has read your reply and says he couldn't have asked for a better answer, and will probably go for it one way or the other, it's just a matter of waiting for the chip to drop so to speak...


----------



## realmassy

Got the WE396A JW version in the mail yesterday as well as the hifituning fuse.
  So far I only put the fuse, but I couldn't spend much time listening. I'll use it for a few days and then I'll put the stock fuse back...curious to see if I'll notice any difference.
   
  As for the JW, I'll play with it next week end.


----------



## realmassy

I couldn't resist and I put the WE396A JW! I played only a couple of CDs, but so far is a no-no.
   
  Angel Hewitt, Bach harpsichord concerto no 1: compared to the bendix piano is forward, and "too rich"...I don't know how to explain it
  It lacks of clarity, transparency, I have to turn up the volume on the WA3 to get the same level of detail.
  With detail I mean correct positioning of instruments, focus, imaging. Dynamics seem good, but I have to test with different recording.
  But...it reminds me of milk choc: it's OK, but it leaves that mellow taste in mouth that can be boring.
   
  Same work, this time played by Christophe Rousset on harpsichord: the recording usually crisp, clear is now muddy.
  Strings almost hide the harpsichord
   
  Last recording: Beethoven's Eroica conducted by Andrew Manze. That's another quality recording, but again it sounds very different.
  Percussions and the bottom end in general are boomy, but sound is pleasant anyway. This version of Beethoven's third is played on period instruments, and strings can be glassy and bright, but with the WE the result is very sweet, but I'm not convinced I like it more.
   
  I guess some burn-in is required, so I'll post my impressions in the next days.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> but so far is a no-no.
> 
> 
> I guess some burn-in is required, so I'll post my impressions in the next days.


 

 Do yourself a favor and test the tube with a tube tester.
  There is a chance the tube is way past it's lifetime.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Do yourself a favor and test the tube with a tube tester.
> There is a chance the tube is way past it's lifetime.


 
   
  I wish I had a tester!
  Tonight I replaced the WE with Bendix....I guess I'll complete the burn-in in the future 
  But tomorrow or the day after I should get the JJ 6386


----------



## realmassy

Got the JJ 6386 yesterday: so far it's very very interesting.
  First impressions are positive, to my ears it's a clear step over the WE396 JW, assuming the one I got is good.
   
  Sound is similar to the Bendix, probably not as refined, but more transparent...very good with piano, which I always thought wasn't perfect with the Havana. 
   
  I'm listening right now to Bach's Brandeburg Concertos conducted by Gardiner, attacks are clean and fast, good focus and imaging, stage is slight narrower, but still a lot of air between instruments. Bottom end, which I didn't like at all on the WE, is tight and transparent, not boomy or muddy. No signs of harshness with brasses, despite the DT880's hot treble.


----------



## robeeert1

Totally agreed with realmassy, JW WE 396a is not a good tube for classical music, not natural timbre, muddy sound.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Totally agreed with realmassy, JW WE 396a is not a good tube for classical music, not natural timbre, muddy sound.


 


  Speak for yourself.  Mine sounds excellent in the Havana.


----------



## robeeert1

In my opinion havana and JW WE 396a sound awful with classics, especially with stax amps. May be in your system it sounds excellent, I don't doubt it.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Got the JJ 6386 yesterday: so far it's very very interesting.
> First impressions are positive, to my ears it's a clear step over the WE396 JW, assuming the one I got is good.
> 
> Sound is similar to the Bendix, probably not as refined, but more transparent...very good with piano, which I always thought wasn't perfect with the Havana.
> ...


 
   
  Interesting comments on your experience with the JW WE396 variant ...
   
  In my own experience with a JW WE396 tube (ordered from TubeWord)I ... I found mine to be strikingly similar to the Bendix 6385, nearly indistinguishable from each other were it not for a bit more "silk" in the JW tube ... but certainly classed them in the same category. 
   
  I confess to now wanting to aquire another Bendix.
   

   
  And thanks for the comments on the 6386 ... will be investigating this tube, myself. 
   
  And in all seriousness, to my ear, anyway and even though I sold it, ... the Bendix 6385 was the sweet-spot-tube for me and my gear. 
   
  Hope to get another one, soon.
   
  Thanks again for the insight. Rock. 
   
  .j


----------



## realmassy

Joel,
  I actually don't know whether my JW tube is bad or I simply don't like it...you and other seems to love it!
  Or maybe simply it's not a good match with my tube headphone amp: has the tube buffer stage anything to do with the impedance output of the DAC? could this change swapping tubes? Just a thought....


----------



## twylight

WE 396a is a perfectly good tube in the havana and paradisea - I think you have have a bad tube.  I have tested all my high end tubes and they are slightly different, but I doubt many people could AB the difference between the better tubes (50-60s WE 396a, bendix 6385, cyro treated)
   
  Now they are audibly different than the russian tubes and tubes from 80's.
   
  The russian and chinese tubes being stock with tons of tube gear is just a crime.


----------



## robeeert1

Comparing these two (JW 396a and a bendix) with electrostatic headphones (stax omega) which are very very sensitive, you can easily hear the difference,
  JW is dull without natural timbre in classics of course, but I like the sound of JW with rock.


----------



## realmassy

More updates on the JJ 6386: I just listened to some Mozart's early symphonies conducted by Trevor Pinnock, and with this recording the difference between the JJ and the Bendix is very clear.
   
  The JJ is tonally similar, but it makes sound the Havana like a solid state dac. Great detail and transparency, it's like removing a veil...but it's dry and it has not the magic of the Bendix.
  With the Bendix everything is a bit blurred (at least compared to the JJ), attacks are softer, decays longer, but stage is well deeper, and the sound has that typical tube distortion that is missing in the JJ.
   
  It really comes down to personal preferences and recordings I think. Well recorded acoustic music can sound superb with the JJ, excellent with large orchestra, but with small ensembles, chamber music, or performance with period instruments (and I guess with amplified music as well) the Bendix is way more music and less clinical
   
  By the way, the difference between the tubes is more apparent using the MHDT power cord, which I finally put in place, but it may depends also on the power cord I'm now using on the WA3, previously used on the Havana.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> More updates on the JJ 6386: I just listened to some Mozart's early symphonies conducted by Trevor Pinnock, and with this recording the difference between the JJ and the Bendix is very clear.
> 
> The JJ is tonally similar, but it makes sound the Havana like a solid state dac. Great detail and transparency, it's like removing a veil...but it's dry and it has not the magic of the Bendix.
> With the Bendix everything is a bit blurred (at least compared to the JJ), attacks are softer, decays longer, but stage is well deeper, and the sound has that typical tube distortion that is missing in the JJ.
> ...


 

 If you think you can tell the difference between tubes with your setup now, wait until you upgrade your amp / headphones!


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> If you think you can tell the difference between tubes with your setup now, wait until you upgrade your amp / headphones!


 
 True, I want to upgrade my headphones first, probably I'll get the T1, but I'd love to listen to the HD800 first.
  All in all I'm very happy with this setup so I have no urgency: if upgrading headphones means upgrading the amp as well, then I'm happy to stick with my current setup and spend $2000 in music.
   
  Differences in tubes is not night day but it's still noticeable. Swapping driver tubes on my WA3 for example has no major effect, they all sound pretty similar, while the power tube has bigger impact.


----------



## Solarjam

Hi all, I have read all 76 pages of this forum over the past few days. I am new and I want to thank all of you for the info you have shared . I bought my havana about 2 weeks ago used. I got 3 tubes  with it. One a silvania, one a WE 396A without the JW logo and a( What seams to be) a bendix 2c51. The bendix is clearly the best in my system. I have since tried a tungsol 5670 and a JW-396A. I just can't get into that JW-396A tube, It sounds somewhat dull. I have a tube tester and it tests strong. I guess it just does not work in my system. (all audio research tube gear with montana speakers) Thats OK. What I really would like to ask you all is----Have you ever seen or listened to the eclipse-pioneer 5670 tubes?. I picked up a pair of these a few days ago and they are on the way to me. I did some digging and found out that these were made by bendix in the early to mid fifties. There is very little info on them. I have never even seen anyone write anything on them. I hope I have found a real gem here. Once again thank you all. The info on the 6386 jj was just what I was wondering about. Also next to the 2c51 bendix. I like the 5670 tungsol the best. None of these tubes have the upper open kind of air and space the bendix 2c51 has.    regards-------  Solar


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> ...
> I just can't get into that JW-396A tube, It sounds somewhat dull. I have a tube tester and it tests strong. I guess it just does not work in my system. (all audio research tube gear with montana speakers) Thats OK. What I really would like to ask you all is----Have you ever seen or listened to the eclipse-pioneer 5670 tubes?.


 
  Never heard about this tube, so please post your impressions once you tried it in your system.
  Today I'm in "JJ 6386" mood  right now listening to Mahler's second conducted by Gergiev...very very good, great dynamics and transparent sound.
   
  I can't make up my mind, on some recordings this tube is superb.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> Hi all, I have read all 76 pages of this forum over the past few days. I am new and I want to thank all of you for the info you have shared . I bought my havana about 2 weeks ago used. I got 3 tubes  with it. One a silvania, one a WE 396A without the JW logo and a( What seams to be) a bendix 2c51. The bendix is clearly the best in my system. I have since tried a tungsol 5670 and a JW-396A. I just can't get into that JW-396A tube, It sounds somewhat dull. I have a tube tester and it tests strong. I guess it just does not work in my system. (all audio research tube gear with montana speakers) Thats OK. What I really would like to ask you all is----Have you ever seen or listened to the eclipse-pioneer 5670 tubes?. I picked up a pair of these a few days ago and they are on the way to me. I did some digging and found out that these were made by bendix in the early to mid fifties. There is very little info on them. I have never even seen anyone write anything on them. I hope I have found a real gem here. Once again thank you all. The info on the 6386 jj was just what I was wondering about. Also next to the 2c51 bendix. I like the 5670 tungsol the best. None of these tubes have the upper open kind of air and space the bendix 2c51 has.    regards-------  Solar


 

 x2 on the Bendix 2C51, a very nice tube in the Havana; from what I've heard myself, with various tubes I've owned in the past, it's a matter of fairly rigorous nit picking to claim the 6385 tube as being worth the price difference. I was rather pleased to hear only slight differences between the 2C51 and the (generally) more costly 6385 tube but admittedly, I *did* prefer the 6385 (maybe because it stuck out from the Havana's top and therefore just looked cooler but also maybe because of a slight improvement in spatial qualities, dynamics and the like) ... while the general freq response seems very very similar between the two .. most likely gonna try and find another set of Bendix tubes soon, for backup/rolling as it's a fairly decent investment, especially the 2C51. 
   
  Thanks for the insight. 
   
  .j


----------



## Solarjam

Hi -J. After reading your many interesting posts on the tubes you have rolled. I tend to value your opinon.  I have never listened to a 6385. I have been tube rolling in my gear for years. So I have learned many things about the changes tubes can make in a piece of gear. But by the way you explain the 6385 I think I can just about  figure what to expect from that tube. I am trying to find one at a fair price from someone I can trust. I may go the route of realmassy and get a 6386JJ. I need to think about it. Have you tried one of those? I know you like the WE 396A, but I don't think that is for me. I love those airy extended highs that just seem to roll out to know where. 
    Realmassy You think I can get that with the 6386JJ? 
  OR Slrrah--  maybe I will just take my time and see what comes along. One thing I have plenty of is time. Thanks Again
    Solar


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> Hi -J. After reading your many interesting posts on the tubes you have rolled. I tend to value your opinon.  I have never listened to a 6385. I have been tube rolling in my gear for years. So I have learned many things about the changes tubes can make in a piece of gear. But by the way you explain the 6385 I think I can just about  figure what to expect from that tube. I am trying to find one at a fair price from someone I can trust. I may go the route of realmassy and get a 6386JJ. I need to think about it. Have you tried one of those? I know you like the WE 396A, but I don't think that is for me. I love those airy extended highs that just seem to roll out to know where.
> Realmassy You think I can get that with the 6386JJ?
> OR Slrrah--  maybe I will just take my time and see what comes along. One thing I have plenty of is time. Thanks Again
> Solar


 

 Yes ... 'tis true, I love the particular JW 396A that I have. I found the difference between the JW branded and non JW branded tubes to be quite dramatic. At the time, I also had a Bendix 2C51 and a Bendix 6385. I had spent quite a bit of coin on the 6385 (at least for me) and so it was the fact that my JW 396A had (the main selling point, actually) the same sparkle in the highs, the same "air" or cleanliness between instruments (sounds in general) while having (for my system, mind you) ever more slightly present low end.
   
  Really ... it took a week or so of listening (I borrowed a spare JW 396A from a local friend, bought from Tubeworld.com) for me to decide that the differences between the two Bendix tubes I had and the JW tube were just too slim to warrant keeping the Bendix's when I knew I could sell them near instantly.
   
  But again, that's simply the tube I happened to purchase, a 1954 JW 396A from tubeworld.com (where I think the prices are a bit steep but the dudes reputation and testing is reportedly quite trustworthy). I really enjoy with my particular system.
   
  If I had to pick a favorite tube with the Havana, then it would def be a toss up between the JW 396A and the Bendix 6385; ultimately, I will purchase another 6385 to keep as an alternate.
   
  But to answer your question re: 6385? It's spatial qualities and general cleanliness across all frequency ranges is what I adore about it. As others have mentioned, the high's are simply amazing and otherwise, it's a very 3 dimensional sounding and very engaging tube in the Havana. Also, ... def try and find a reputable dealer. I wanted to purchase a particular 6385 that Tubeworld had but it was like some ungodly price, in the range of 400 bucks or something and I simply couldn't warrant the investment for DAC purposes. I ended up buying from a long time head-fi user whom I trusted and was not disappointed. I think if it's someone who has tested the tube adequately (and you can verify test) and if it's in the early to middle period for when that tube was produced, then $100.00 to $150.00 dollars could be considered a fair price 
   
  Unfortunately, I have not heard the 6386 tube although I would like to some day. I've very much settled on a desktop (and portable for that matter) rig that is near perfect for me and so I haven't really changed much (other than wires) in the past couple years. 
   
  Let us know how it works if you get it.
   
  Best.
   
  .joel


----------



## SteveM324

Here is my Havana story.  I bought my Havana in January and immediately swapped the stock tube for a WE396A and upgraded the fuse to a HiFi Tuning fuse.  I let it burn in for about 300-400 hours before making any judgements.  For reference, I own 2 PS Audio PW transports and 2 PW DACs (obviously I like them a lot).  I felt the stock Havana was too laid back and not on the same playing field in terms of dynamics, bass and soundstaging (IMO of course) but this is not a revelation considering the price difference (the PWD street price is about $2000 brand new).   After reading through this thread (great source of information), I decided to have my Havana modified like a few others have done.  I'm not particularly skilled with the soldering iron so I set out to find a modification source that I could trust.  I made a few phone calls and decided to go with the Parts Connexion because I felt comfortable after talking with Chris Johnson (formerly of Sonic Frontiers).  He told me he would review the DAC and make recommendations and if I decided to go ahead, he would give me a detailed list of all the parts that were swapped out and give me back the stock parts (not every modifier that I called was willing to do this).
   
  I sent my Havana to the Parts Connexion and the total turnaround time including shipping both ways using UPS ground (International shipping from the US to Canada and back) was 10 days.  I think that timing is absolutely incredible.  I'm not going into all the details of the mod but_ _I will summarize it : (1) the output cap were changed to Vcaps and larger size, (2) other caps were changed as well and the replacements were not only better quality but larger as well, (2)  pure silver wiring replace stock wiring, (3) output connectors were changed to very high quality WBT RCA connectors, (4) Schottkey (sp?) diodes were installed,  (5) dampening material was installed in the chassis to reduce vibrations, (5) isolation feet were installed, (6) if I recall correctly, I think the labor was about 2-3 hrs.  These are the changes he recommended as being the biggest bang for my buck.  Of course other changes could have been made such as resistors, etc; but Chris said it would take a lot more time and money on my part and he felt it would not make that big of an impact.  I felt good about Chris' honesty and  I never felt like he was trying to take me for a ride.  Cost you ask?  Including labor and shipping about $500 USD (parts alone were about $320).
   
  So what improvements did it make?  Only everything, you name it, it improved.  Bass improved by a big margin.  Dynamics?  Absolutely huge improvement.  Midrange clarity and a much blacker background leading to improved instrument separation and a deeper and wider soundstage.  I thought the stock Havana had a greyish background and just an ever so slight amount of grain.  The modded Havana's background is blacker than black and no grain is present at all.  I've had my modded Havana for more than 2 months now and I know it pretty well.  How does it stack up against my PW DAC?  They are now on the same playing field which I think says a lot because I think the PW DAC punches well above its weight class.  I think on acoustic music I would give a very slight edge to the modded Havana.  On classic rock like Santana, maybe a very very slight edge to the PWD (but I'm not sure I could pick either out in a blind test).  Bass on the modded Havana is very good (tight as drum) and matches the PWD.  For vocals, I give the edge to the Havana for better clarity, immediacy and focus. Overall, I think its a matter of taste which is better but they are very closely matched.  For reference, my amps are Zana Deux Se and a Luxman SQ-N100 and I used the PS Audio PWT on both DACs.  A Signal Cable Magic Power cord was used on the Havana and Signal Cable Analog 2 ICs connected the amp and DAC.  All components were plugged into my Running Springs Haley.  So was it worth spending $500 USD on a DAC that cost only $850?  I think so.   Sorry for rambling on but I thought a few of you would be interested in this.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> Here is my Havana story.  I bought my Havana in January and immediately swapped the stock tube for a WE396A and upgraded the fuse to a HiFi Tuning fuse.  I let it burn in for about 300-400 hours before making any judgements.  For reference, I own 2 PS Audio PW transports and 2 PW DACs (obviously I like them a lot).  I felt the stock Havana was too laid back and not on the same playing field in terms of dynamics, bass and soundstaging (IMO of course) but this is not a revelation considering the price difference (the PWD street price is about $2000 brand new).   After reading through this thread (great source of information), I decided to have my Havana modified like a few others have done.  I'm not particularly skilled with the soldering iron so I set out to find a modification source that I could trust.  I made a few phone calls and decided to go with the Parts Connexion because I felt comfortable after talking with Chris Johnson (formerly of Sonic Frontiers).  He told me he would review the DAC and make recommendations and if I decided to go ahead, he would give me a detailed list of all the parts that were swapped out and give me back the stock parts (not every modifier that I called was willing to do this).
> 
> I sent my Havana to the Parts Connexion and the total turnaround time including shipping both ways using UPS ground (International shipping from the US to Canada and back) was 10 days.  I think that timing is absolutely incredible.  I'm not going into all the details of the mod but_ _I will summarize it : (1) the output cap were changed to Vcaps and larger size, (2) other caps were changed as well and the replacements were not only better quality but larger as well, (2)  pure silver wiring replace stock wiring, (3) output connectors were changed to very high quality WBT RCA connectors, (4) Schottkey (sp?) diodes were installed,  (5) dampening material was installed in the chassis to reduce vibrations, (5) isolation feet were installed, (6) if I recall correctly, I think the labor was about 2-3 hrs.  These are the changes he recommended as being the biggest bang for my buck.  Of course other changes could have been made such as resistors, etc; but Chris said it would take a lot more time and money on my part and he felt it would not make that big of an impact.  I felt good about Chris' honesty and  I never felt like he was trying to take me for a ride.  Cost you ask?  Including labor and shipping about $500 USD (parts alone were about $320).
> 
> So what improvements did it make?  Only everything, you name it, it improved.  Bass improved by a big margin.  Dynamics?  Absolutely huge improvement.  Midrange clarity and a much blacker background leading to improved instrument separation and a deeper and wider soundstage.  I thought the stock Havana had a greyish background and just an ever so slight amount of grain.  The modded Havana's background is blacker than black and no grain is present at all.  I've had my modded Havana for more than 2 months now and I know it pretty well.  How does it stack up against my PW DAC?  They are now on the same playing field which I think says a lot because I think the PW DAC punches well above its weight class.  I think on acoustic music I would give a very slight edge to the modded Havana.  On classic rock like Santana, maybe a very very slight edge to the PWD (but I'm not sure I could pick either out in a blind test).  Bass on the modded Havana is very good (tight as drum) and matches the PWD.  For vocals, I give the edge to the Havana for better clarity, immediacy and focus. Overall, I think its a matter of taste which is better but they are very closely matched.  For reference, my amps are Zana Deux Se and a Luxman SQ-N100 and I used the PS Audio PWT on both DACs.  A Signal Cable Magic Power cord was used on the Havana and Signal Cable Analog 2 ICs connected the amp and DAC.  All components were plugged into my Running Springs Haley.  So was it worth spending $500 USD on a DAC that cost only $850?  I think so.   Sorry for rambling on but I thought a few of you would be interested in this.


 


  Wow. Interesting. Thanks for posting the details.
   
  Could you take some photos of the internals?
   
  Also, is this fellow interested in possibly replicating the mod for other owners?
   
  Feel free to PM me any info.
   
  Thanks.
   
  .joel


----------



## SteveM324

Joel,
  I'm sure Chris at the Parts Connexion would be glad to modify other Havana owners here.  He was great to work with and his company is one of our sponsors at Headfi.  I think another benefit of working with the Parts Connexion is that they likely have all the parts in stock so they can put just about any part you want to specify in their mod. 

  
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Wow. Interesting. Thanks for posting the details.
> 
> Could you take some photos of the internals?
> 
> ...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> In my opinion havana and JW WE 396a sound awful with classics, especially with stax amps. May be in your system it sounds excellent, I don't doubt it.


 

 Totally agree! STAX amp. sounds great with Havana. Feel better together.
  I taste STAX "Signature" SRS 4040II (SRM-006tII&SR404), and now,  eXStatA with SR404LE "Limited Ed", and the sound is very good any style, (classical or other...). Stamp, transparency, channel separation, refinement...
  *Robeeert1, if you can, please replace output capacitors with V-Cap OIMP. After about 200 hours the running, the sound change, allow me to say, dramatically! Micro details, transparency and a higher resolution. Yes, it is true, depends very much the rest of the system: transport, amplification, headphone, cables, synergy of them...


----------



## robeeert1

I'm gonna replace the stock output capacitors to V-Cap OIMP and the fuse (gold or silver is better?) next week I'm looking for them and order.
  I hope I'll hear some improvements after that operation.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> I sent my Havana to the Parts Connexion and the total turnaround time including shipping both ways using UPS ground (International shipping from the US to Canada and back) was 10 days.  I think that timing is absolutely incredible.  I'm not going into all the details of the mod but_ _I will summarize it : (1) the output cap were changed to Vcaps and larger size, (2) other caps were changed as well and the replacements were not only better quality but larger as well, (2)  pure silver wiring replace stock wiring, (3) output connectors were changed to very high quality WBT RCA connectors, (4) Schottkey (sp?) diodes were installed,  (5) dampening material was installed in the chassis to reduce vibrations, (5) isolation feet were installed, (6) if I recall correctly, I think the labor was about 2-3 hrs.  These are the changes he recommended as being the biggest bang for my buck.  Of course other changes could have been made such as resistors, etc; but Chris said it would take a lot more time and money on my part and he felt it would not make that big of an impact.  I felt good about Chris' honesty and  I never felt like he was trying to take me for a ride.  Cost you ask?  Including labor and shipping about $500 USD (parts alone were about $320).


 
   
  Consider this information important, and I think that what you described is exactly. Havana is relatively ok, but needs clearly the changes in key points (output capacitors are only one moves. I thing that it is not enough; change tubes, fuse, etc. is relative...). Althoug honestly say, output capacitors (V-Cap OIMP) have made improvements exactly where we expected. A DIY converter assembled by a friend (professional electronics), was over the Havana sound at transparency and resolution level; highs better defined. Felt like Havana is "anemic", missing something. I made direct comparisons between two dac's. Then it's by that black backgrund and midrange clarity, that Havana has not really "native". I think , this year I do the movement. Thank You!


----------



## SteveM324

I have a Bendix 6385 on its way to me.  I will post my thoughts after burning it in.

  
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Yes ... 'tis true, I love the particular JW 396A that I have. I found the difference between the JW branded and non JW branded tubes to be quite dramatic. At the time, I also had a Bendix 2C51 and a Bendix 6385. I had spent quite a bit of coin on the 6385 (at least for me) and so it was the fact that my JW 396A had (the main selling point, actually) the same sparkle in the highs, the same "air" or cleanliness between instruments (sounds in general) while having (for my system, mind you) ever more slightly present low end.
> 
> Really ... it took a week or so of listening (I borrowed a spare JW 396A from a local friend, bought from Tubeworld.com) for me to decide that the differences between the two Bendix tubes I had and the JW tube were just too slim to warrant keeping the Bendix's when I knew I could sell them near instantly.
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

I just picked up a Havana on Audiogon. Pretty nice DAC. I have a lot of 5670/2C51 type tubes, but it came with the Bendix 2C51 in it, and I'm not in any horry to change that out. Initial listening is very promising - I bought this for use in my second system, and I think it will fit the bill nicely!


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I just picked up a Havana on Audiogon. Pretty nice DAC. I have a lot of 5670/2C51 type tubes, but it came with the Bendix 2C51 in it, and I'm not in any horry to change that out. Initial listening is very promising - I bought this for use in my second system, and I think it will fit the bill nicely!


 


   
  That *seems* so unlike you, audiowise. I wonder what you are you looking for, and if you will find it?


----------



## Skylab

A DAC with a tube output stage is unlike me? Not hardly! My main system DAC is also a tube/hybrid output stage (the AVA Vision DAC). I was using a Yulong D100 in my second system, but I really began to find it too bright. It's much cheaper than the Havana, of course. the AVA is about 2X the price of the Havana...I was thinking of getting a second one of those for this rig, which is my man-cave "vintage" rig, not my he-man 2-channel rig, but I was convinced by a friend that it's better to have something different. And this does sound different from the AVA, but I am liking the little Havana.

Listening to one of my favorite GD shows, 5-19-77 right now. Yummy.


----------



## pigmode

[size=medium]
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> A DAC with a tube output stage is unlike me? Not hardly! My main system DAC is also a tube/hybrid output stage (the AVA Vision DAC). I was using a Yulong D100 in my second system, but I really began to find it too bright. It's much cheaper than the Havana, of course. the AVA is about 2X the price of the Havana...I was thinking of getting a second one of those for this rig, which is my man-cave "vintage" rig, not my he-man 2-channel rig, but I was convinced by a friend that it's better to have something different. And this does sound different from the AVA, but I am liking the little Havana.
> 
> Listening to one of my favorite GD shows, 5-19-77 right now. Yummy.






  
   
   ​[/size]

   
   Ah okay, system tuning. Still for posterities sake, it would be very interesting to see how the Havana fits in with the Leben.


----------



## Skylab

Ahhhh...OK.  I hadn't planned to use the Leben and the Havana together, but I can sure try it.  My use of the Leben is very unconventional - it's headphone-amp only in my bedside rig.  My main 2-channel speaker rig is all separates, Cary tube pre and Sunfire uber-powerful amps driving B&W N800 signatures - the Leben couldn't possibly handle those behemoths.  And the Havana is for my "other" speaker rig, which was based around the Fisher KX-100 tube amp but is now based around the monsterous Pioneer SX-1250 receiver from the 1970's driving N805's.


----------



## tme110

Skylab, I'm not sure which equipment you have where but are you using the DAC in your OPPO-95 or have you felt the need to bypass it?


----------



## Skylab

The Havana is not in the same rig with the Oppo. the Oppo is in my Big Rig, and I use it for SACD and DVD-Audio, but everything else goes though my AVA Vision hybrid DAC in that rig. The Havana is in my "vintage rig" which is B&W N805 speakers or Audeze LCD-2's driven by a Pioneer SX1250 monster receiver from the 70's.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> One thing I have plenty of is time.


 
   
  Are you in prison? 
   
  (I'm sorry. I just couldn't stop myself)


----------



## niamex

Hi there,
  I would just exchange some of my modest experience -
  1. I believe we talk here only about tubes with a D-getter - everything else is out of question. Fully agree that Bendix 2c51 is one of the best /haven;t tried the 6385 yet/ followed by Tesla 6c42 /very rear/ and JW 2c51 WE 396 A - all of them with D-getter.
  2. After my moddings I thing the most important points are foll:
  -replacing the two input caps /0,01 uf/ with russian NOS military glass silver mica -/ David's mod /
  -replacing C12 - 1000 pf silver mica  with 0,01 uf silver mica /same as above/
  -replacing four electrolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones - /David's mod/
  -replacing the resistors around the tube socket with low noise tantalum - Shinkoh or Audio Note
  -replacing the output caps with LARGER ones - in my case Sonicap 3,6 uf - depends on the preamp impedance. The last is giving you a profound articulated   bass.
   
  That is already moving the Havana into the higher class but still you can work on the PS - separate toroids for the analogue and digital parts, hyperfast soft recovery diodes, bigger filtering caps etc.
   
  If someone is interested please see http://www.dms-audio.com/havana-dac-mods.
  I am also prepared to answer any questions in that respect on PM.
   
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Hi there,
> I would just exchange some of my modest experience -
> 1. I believe we talk here only about tubes with a D-getter - everything else is out of question. Fully agree that Bendix 2c51 is one of the best /haven;t tried the 6385 yet/ followed by Tesla 6c42 /very rear/ and JW 2c51 WE 396 A - all of them with D-getter.
> 2. After my moddings I thing the most important points are foll:
> ...


 

 Link is busted.  Dot at the end.
   
http://www.dms-audio.com/havana-dac-mods


----------



## niamex

Sorry, just remove the dot - easy,
  Cheers


----------



## Solarjam

Hi Joel---That is funny!! No I am not in prison.  I don't work anymore. I just relax and listen to music. So I do have very much time on my hands. ( That is a good thing) Hey do you remember those tubes I talked about a while back?  The 5670 tubes I asked about? I got them in and they sound exactly like a 2c51 Bendix. What a find. So all is well with my system for now anyway. How you doing??
      Solar


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> Hi Joel---That is funny!! No I am not in prison.  I don't work anymore. I just relax and listen to music. So I do have very much time on my hands. ( That is a good thing) Hey do you remember those tubes I talked about a while back?  The 5670 tubes I asked about? I got them in and they sound exactly like a 2c51 Bendix. What a find. So all is well with my system for now anyway. How you doing??
> Solar


 
  Hi, are you talking about the normal GE 5670 or some other brand ?


----------



## gbamboo

come to learn more about DAC


----------



## Solarjam

Hi niamex, about 3 or 4 weeks ago I found a pair of 5670 eclipse- pioneer tubes for sale on the internet. I did some digging and found out that they were very early made Bendix tubes. I had never seen these tubes before anywhere. (come to find out they are very rare, made in early fifties). I bought them cheap and they sound wonderful !!. Just like my Bendix 2C51 tubes. I doubt that I will ever see them again. They appear to be that rare.
  Regards----Solar


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> Hi niamex, about 3 or 4 weeks ago I found a pair of 5670 eclipse- pioneer tubes for sale on the internet. I did some digging and found out that they were very early made Bendix tubes. I had never seen these tubes before anywhere. (come to find out they are very rare, made in early fifties). I bought them cheap and they sound wonderful !!. Just like my Bendix 2C51 tubes. I doubt that I will ever see them again. They appear to be that rare.
> Regards----Solar


 

 Thanks Solar, feel happy for you and sorry for me and the rest of this thread society, ENJOY !
  Cheers


----------



## FOXY

After hearing a number of upsampling dacs that I didnt liked I decided to purchase the mhdt havana dac.
   
The sound after a few days is quite dark, and not so detailed in high.
 Is this phenomenon of  tube burn-in? 
   
  what tubes is recommend for the best sound?

  
 The dac is connected to the computer's built-in Sound card, Does adding a USB to _S/PDIF will improve the sound?_


----------



## twylight

try straight USB
   
  I like all the 3 inputs the same
   
  USB elimantes the terrible noise prone internal sound cards
   
   
  Bendix 2x51, 6385, WE 396A are great tubes, the older the better - I think it comes with a 80's we396a - I liked the 60's one much better as well as a bendix 2c51 from the 60s as well.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





foxy said:


> After hearing a number of upsampling dacs that I didnt liked I decided to purchase the mhdt havana dac.
> 
> The sound after a few days is quite dark, and not so detailed in high.
> Is this phenomenon of  tube burn-in?
> ...


 

 Foxy, you just read this thread and you will get all the answers,
  Cheers


----------



## FOXY

After a week more of burn in, the dac sounds a lot better.

 I understand from reading this thread that vacuum tube replacement is recommended.
  Especially for the WE396A JW.

 What are the differences between it stock tube and the WE396A JW ?
   
  And from where i should purchase it?


----------



## Solarjam

Hi Foxy, I have spent some time going through tubes for this dac.I have been rolling tubes in and out of my gear  for years. I have an Audio Research pre-amp that holds a total of 15 tubes, and an ARC power amp that holds a total of 17 tubes. So I think I can say that I kind of know my tubes. There are many different ideas on this forum as to what is the best tube for this DAC is. Joel and many others have  opinions also. And I do agree that the going thought around here is the  WE- JW 396A tube is up there with the best . I can only say that for me I have not had very good luck with this tube.(and they are going up in price). To me the Bendix 2C51 is clearly the best sounding tube for this Dac That I have been through. If you can find it on e-bay, you will pay about 75.00 for it. Bendix also makes a 6385 that is said to sound just a tad better. But it is about 150.00 and I have not been able to hear that one. ( I am not going to pay that price).
   But I want to tell you about a tube I just got in the mail a couple of days ago. I am listening to it at this very moment. First I AM  Shocked!!  I took out my bendix 2c51 and poped  this in and I was not expecting much (for 3.00 for two tubes= 8.00 shipping=11.00 total) I can not believe my ears!!!  This tube sounds every bit as good as the bendix(maybe better). I gave the other to my friend with one of these dacs so he can listen also. I expect the same response from him in his high end system when he gets back to me.
  The Tube???---the Russian 6np3-e---  it is important that you get the E- model and not the other ones.( there is a 6n3p, a-6n3p-i, and a 6n3p-dr) I have only tried the E model. And I am not sure the other models would sound as good. At such a cheap price. I can't see why anyone would not at least try them. You should leave your dac on all night so the tube can cook some (improved bass). It seems to sound better after about 15 or 20 hours burn in. I understand that there may be some out there that disagree. But I feel that this is the bargin of the century for a tube for this DAC. If any of you others can use this tube in any of your other gear? I would love to here your thoughts. I hope this helps.
   Solar


----------



## Wedge

I just joined the ranks of Havana owners this week.  What an awesome DAC, I'm still using the stock tubes in it, which is a first for me, but I didn't have any of these tubes laying around, waiting for some WEs and Tung-Sols to come in though.  Should be fun.


----------



## Solarjam

Wedge--order one of those 6n3p-e tubes off of e-bay. I promise , you won't regret it.  It takes about 3-weeks to get it from russia. But it is well worth it


----------



## niamex

Hi Solarjam,
  I have listened to almost all of them exept the Bendix 6385-/which I consider expensive/ and agree with you that Bendix 2C51 is the best along with Tesla 6CC42 and JW - all of them D-getter. Have tried all the Russian triodes and consider E-type the best of them but in my opinion not better than the Bendix. Anyhow better than all the rest of GE tubes etc. At the end - hearing is believing - so let's see what the community will say about it.
  Cheers !


----------



## Solarjam

Hi Niamex---Yes lets see what will be said about the russian tube. What gets me is the price. I don't really think it is better than the bendix 2c51. But I do think it is as good and I see no reason to pay the kind of prices we have been paying for these tubes when there is this russian tube to be had for about 2.00+ shipping. Just my 2 cents worth.
  Best regards ---Solar


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> I see no reason to pay the kind of prices we have been paying for these tubes when there is this russian tube to be had for about 2.00+ shipping. Just my 2 cents worth.
> Best regards ---Solar


 
  Absolutely right, on top of it the difference is negligible IMHO.
  Regards,
  Ignat


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





solarjam said:


> Hi Niamex---Yes lets see what will be said about the russian tube. What gets me is the price. I don't really think it is better than the bendix 2c51. But I do think it is as good and I see no reason to pay the kind of prices we have been paying for these tubes when there is this russian tube to be had for about 2.00+ shipping. Just my 2 cents worth.
> Best regards ---Solar


 


  Thanks for the mention. I'm gonna order a couple of these.


----------



## Skylab

I was able to score 5 Tung-Sol 2C51's for $10. They sound great. This tube type can often be very cheap if you poke around.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I was able to score 5 Tung-Sol 2C51's for $10. They sound great. This tube type can often be very cheap if you poke around.


 
  Please consider an exchange of one of yours Tung Sol for a Tesla 6CC42 /also very rare/. We have to pay just the transport. I have four of them. Sounds great - if you do not like it I will pay to collect it back. I have just bought a Bendix 2c51 in Germany for 40 Euro.
  Regards


----------



## Skylab

Sure, PM sent - I can trade one (already sold two others).


----------



## s1rrah

(edit)


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> (oh please!) (stop talking about all this Havana tube rolling sex) ; I've been sold on the early year JW 396A tube for about 1.5 years. I know, I know .. afficiandaos will always complain (myself included). And though I will always claim the Bendix 6385 as my favorite tube in the Havana, I will still nonetheless pimp the second best tube (IMHO) ... the JW 396A ... (so ****ing sexy) .... .. ... (sigh() ... (I'm drinking). ( blush ) ...
> You are bloody right but you know it - it's a diagnose - not a mood
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

I've started to become aware of a coloration of the Havana that on occasion bothers me, and wondered what other owners think. I am using the Bendix 2C51 tube. I find there is a kind of forwardness in the very lower mids that isn't natural. Sometimes, like all colorations, this is kind of pleasant, but sometimes it can be quite annoying. 

Before I embark on a huge tube-rolling adventure, what do other Havana owners who have had the DAC longer than I have think? Is this just the way the Havana is?


----------



## twylight

Skylab I dont have all the gear you have, but its that tube - the 2c51 variants add a little more tubey sound in that range - drop a decent we396a in there - its a little less rich, but cleaner.  I have well testing tubes (1 or 2 points off per channel) and go back and forth between the bendix 2c51 and we396a from the early 60's and I hear the same thing.
   
  The havana is pretty clear and doesnt add a lot of tube anyways - the paradisea is way more tubey.  (have them both and others)  I was running strait through some emotiva DSPs last night and the havana (so I could sell the havana) but I just cant do it, love it.
   
  Based on the number of tubes you have I assume you have access to a tester so I doubt there is a problem with your tube.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, I have a tester, and the Bendix tests perfect.  I do have a WE 396A - I will roll that in and see what happens.  Thanks!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I've started to become aware of a coloration of the Havana that on occasion bothers me, and wondered what other owners think. I am using the Bendix 2C51 tube. I find there is a kind of forwardness in the very lower mids that isn't natural. Sometimes, like all colorations, this is kind of pleasant, but sometimes it can be quite annoying.
> 
> Before I embark on a huge tube-rolling adventure, what do other Havana owners who have had the DAC longer than I have think? Is this just the way the Havana is?


 


  That's an interesting note; I can't say that I've noticed such with my own but then again, I might not be in quite as critical of a listening group as your self (although, I do own a slew of Chesky records). But would be curious to hear if your tube changes affected things much. I've been stuck on a JW 396A for more than a year or two and just love everything about my current set up and so haven't really gotten much into critical examination of sonics (I just know it pleases me and so I spend hours simply wading through the beautiful mire that is my 30,000 track .flac collection. .
   
  Anyway ...
   
  Again ... would be interested to hear of any sonic differences amongst tubes.
   
  Best.
   
  .j


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> ...I just know it pleases me and so I spend hours simply wading through the beautiful mire that is my 30,000 track .flac collection. .


 
  Love that!
  Anyway, I don't think the Havana sounds "bassy" or adds coloration, at least not my ears...or maybe I simply got used to 
  I think it sounds rich, harmonically rich, if you see what I mean.
  The JJ6386 sounds very clean and transparent, but I always come back to the bendix.
  On a side note, I put the WE (JW version) back last week and it didn't sound as bad as I remembered...I actually liked it


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, what I am hearing from it versus my other DACs is often very pleasant. I still think the Havana is an excellent sounding DAC. It's just a wee bit too forward in the lower mids with my particular Bendix tube, IMO. I hope this weekend I will have time to try another tube.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





foxy said:


> After hearing a number of upsampling dacs that I didnt liked I decided to purchase the mhdt havana dac.
> 
> The sound after a few days is quite dark, and not so detailed in high.
> Is this phenomenon of  tube burn-in?
> ...






  How to open Havana sound? ... A good question! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Unfortunatly, the "stock" converter is slightly darker and not so detailed in high, and my recommendation is to read what he said SteveM324 (on 77 page). 
  Since I have Havana, I realized about same changes: JW 396A tube + tube dampers from EAT, Hi-Fi Tunning Fuse, output capacitors - V-Cap OIMP, WBT - connectors; diodes, dampening material, isolation feet, etc. Chris Johnson from Parts Connexion, will certainly help-you with them! Must confirm that changed the sound are substantial. Is exactly how said Steve.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  But, we must be mindful of these: Havana is very dependent of transport!! (as was also pointed on forum). Actually, he respond positively any change in the sense of up-grade...Being a "NOS" dac, is weakness the jitter rejection. Any change of transport will affect the sound quality. For example, I use a transport which is modding with separate power on oscillator and the USB interface (Hi-Face M2Tech). Not least, that Havana sounds very good an optimal setup with a very, very good sinergy beetwen them and expensive wiring , filter, etc. In combination with electrostatic amp + headphone (Cavalli eXStatA SS - version + STAX SR-404LE "Limited Ed.") and a cable Audioquest Colorado between them, forget the shortcomings!! High are well defined, detailed (with very good extension) and the sound is transparent and a refined texture. Is a real pleasure to hear Havana this setup!


----------



## brasewel

Alright guys I have joined the Havana bandwagon. Using it currently with a pair of Tung-sols. I am really impressed with this dac, it gives my Apache a very warm, lush sound. Does anyone know what is output voltage when running balanced?


----------



## sk3383

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yeah, what I am hearing from it versus my other DACs is often very pleasant. I still think the Havana is an excellent sounding DAC. It's just a wee bit too forward in the lower mids with my particular Bendix tube, IMO. I hope this weekend I will have time to try another tube.


 


 Did you have a chance to try a different tube lately? Looking for your impressions, do you still hear a forwardness in the lower mids?


----------



## Skylab

Ahhh, yes, sorry I should have posted.  This was largely a tube related issue, it seems.  While the Havana is a little on the warm/lush/dark side overall, I believe, after swapping in the WE 396A and taking the Bendix out, I am MUCH happier - the lower midrange emphasis I heard with the Bendix doesn't seem to be an issue with the WE.


----------



## FOXY

A friend suggested not to use the tube Buffer , can it be done by removel of the tube and than using jumper on the tube socket?
   
  It will be interesting to see if it improves the sound at all..


----------



## robeeert1

Havana uses tube instead of opamp, it can't be omitted or something. It's reasonable construction opposite to other ones where tube stands behind the opamp just for a good taste.


----------



## Skylab

It makes no sense to want to use the Havana without the tube - this is the part of the design. If you don't want to have a tube in your DAC, buy a different DAC!


----------



## Currawong

I have been habouring ideas of getting the balanced Havana for use in my rig for more casual listening as I understand that while it inevitably will lose some detail through distortion, it will be possibly be more pleasant to listen with for long periods. I also have what I think is a very good transport, which should help considerably. What I'd be interested to read about is comparisons with other high-end DACs. I suspect I may have to go through quite a bit of this thread, however more info from people who have experiemented with different transports would be welcome.


----------



## FOXY

SKYLAB, see this post:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/252392/comparison-mhdt-constantine-and-paradisea/30#post_3246607


----------



## robeeert1

Foxy: Havana  will not work without the tube because there is no opamp there,  paradisea has opamp and the tube buffer can be omitted.


----------



## Skylab

I read that, but that doesn't change my opinion at all...which is that there are a zillion solid state DACs. If you want a SS DSC, buy a SS DAC, don't buy a tube DAC and then try to mod it to make it a SS DAC, which is not what the designer had in mind. That's just silly.


----------



## FOXY

Ok, whice tube you liked the most with the havana?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I read that, but that doesn't change my opinion at all...which is that there are a zillion solid state DACs. If you want a SS DSC, buy a SS DAC, don't buy a tube DAC and then try to mod it to make it a SS DAC, which is not what the designer had in mind. That's just silly.


 


  X2.


----------



## Skylab

foxy said:


> Ok, whice tube you liked the most with the havana?


So far my preference is for the Western Electric 396A. I found the Bendix 2C51 to be just a little too rich in the lower mids. The WE396A is very clean, nicely detailed, but still generally very musical.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





foxy said:


> A friend suggested not to use the tube Buffer , can it be done by removel of the tube and than using jumper on the tube socket?
> 
> It will be interesting to see if it improves the sound at all..


 

 Yes FOXY, it is a very good idea but you can eventually go further than just "remuvel" of the tube - you can add some op amps and a digital filter and go to some other thread - OK,
  Go ahead


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Alright guys I have joined the Havana bandwagon. Using it currently with a pair of Tung-sols. I am really impressed with this dac, it gives my Apache a very warm, lush sound. Does anyone know what is output voltage when running balanced?


 


  Congratulations!  You should be set for a while...  Unless the upgrade bug bites you again.  But really.  Now's the time to dramatically expand your music collection and enjoy what you've achieved!
   
  best,
   
  Frank


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Congratulations!  You should be set for a while...  Unless the upgrade bug bites you again.  But really.  Now's the time to dramatically expand your music collection and enjoy what you've achieved!
> 
> best,
> 
> Frank


 

 Haha thanks Frank. I am done as far as headphone setups are concerned. I was now looking into getting some budget speakers =]


----------



## FOXY

After a week with the stock tube, I can say the tube with a dark and littleboring sound.

 There are many recommendations for replacement tube:
 WE396A JW
  Bendix 6385 
  Russian 6np3-e

 What tube will be better if I'm looking for good and warmer sound?


----------



## Amarphael

Wy would you want a *warmer* sound if it's already sounding too dark for you now? Anyway, If you go over this thread you'll find the WE396A is the most well-thought of option. you got a solid recomendation for it just on this page.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





> Foxy: After a week with the stock tube, I can say the tube with a dark and littleboring sound.


 
   
  If you need more impact and clearer sound (not so boring) - purchase bendix 6385 1964 release,
  if you need warmer sound look for a jw we396a.
   
  Whatever you purchase of those above listed you will notice a better resolution sound.


----------



## brasewel

Any tube recommendation for getting a slightly brighter sound without losing the midrange or lows?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Any tube recommendation for getting a slightly brighter sound without losing the midrange or lows?


 


  Brighter will be bendix 6385 (release 1964 only)


----------



## FOXY

From where i can buy the WE396A JW in good price? and what year and version is the best?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Brighter will be bendix 6385 (release 1964 only)


 

 Thanks. Where do I get these tubes? Sorry for the newbie questions, I'm just getting into tube rolling.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Thanks. Where do I get these tubes? Sorry for the newbie questions, I'm just getting into tube rolling.


 

 I do not know where, these are extremely rare tubes.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





foxy said:


> From where i can buy the WE396A JW in good price? and what year and version is the best?


 


  I did not notice any differences between JW WE 396a releases.


----------



## niamex

Guys, do not forget that the first, easiest but most important upgrade is replacement of the Corean BB PCM56P-L  which are the lowest possible grade of that DAC with a couple of higher grade dacs - least choice is no grade, next J-grade and the best is K grade /obligatory Made in Japan/. It will give you a considerable improvement. You roll on tubes after. The easiest way to get these is to buy cheap on Ebay some old CD player /there is a list in the net - "Players and their Dac's" or something of a kind/ and than take out the matched couple from there. If you want to keep the player /these players used to be the SONY, TECHNICS and KENWOOD top models at that time/ you have just to place there the removed L-grade and the player will be  OK..
  Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

What is the difference between PCM56P-L and PCM56P-K ?


----------



## niamex

Please have a look there - http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/BurrBrown/mXrstrq.pdf .Completely different values - I mean better for all the other grades


----------



## robeeert1

Does anyone tried to replace PCM56P-L with PCM56P-K? . What is a sonic difference? Mine is Korea made and marked "L" letter. Is there anything better for Havana?


----------



## niamex

Everything else is better, believe me


----------



## robeeert1

Niamex - Have you tried  AD1856N-K?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Guys, do not forget that the first, easiest but most important upgrade is replacement of the Corean BB PCM56P-L  which are the lowest possible grade of that DAC with a couple of higher grade dacs - least choice is no grade, next J-grade and the best is K grade /obligatory Made in Japan/. It will give you a considerable improvement. You roll on tubes after. The easiest way to get these is to buy cheap on Ebay some old CD player /there is a list in the net - "Players and their Dac's" or something of a kind/ and than take out the matched couple from there. If you want to keep the player /these players used to be the SONY, TECHNICS and KENWOOD top models at that time/ you have just to place there the removed L-grade and the player will be  OK..
> Cheers


 
   
  Interesting .. thanks for that.
   
  .j


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Niamex - Have you tried  AD1856N-K?


 


  Yes but it was a bit cold for my ears


----------



## robeeert1

http://cgi.ebay.com/PCM56PK-PCM56P-K-/150589430202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230fd459ba
   
  Is that the best PCM56P to your ears?


----------



## niamex

That;s right but you need a matched couple and you have to be sure they are not a chinese monkey - they are able to print anything on a chip. I will send a pic of the original by tomorrow. The matched couple you can get from the CD players I have mentioned before or eventualy find them on Ebay /than the origin is not guaranteed/.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





niamex said:


> there is a list in the net - "Players and their Dac's" or something of a kind/ and than take out the matched couple from there. If you want to keep the player /these players used to be the SONY, TECHNICS and KENWOOD top models at that time/ you have just to place there the removed L-grade and the player will be  OK..
> Cheers


 

 To anybody that is interested:
   
  (copied from audioreview.com: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=317087 )
   
  ... 
   
   
*The complete CD Player D/A DAC converter list and laser head list*
 ACCUPHASE DAC10 2 x AD1853 DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DAC20 2 x AD1955 DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-61 12 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AP DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-81 8 x ICL8010ACPD ?2 x SM5801P DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-81L 10 x ICL8010ACPD ?SM5803AP DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-91 16 x PCM63P-K DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-101 6 x AD1853 DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-330 6 x AD1853 DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DC-801 8 x AD1955 DAC 
 ACCUPHASE DP-11 2 x PCM58P-S ?SM5803AP Sony KSS-190A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-55 6 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AP Sony KSS-240A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-55V 2 x AD1853 Sony KSS-240A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-57 2 x PCM1796 ?AK4114VQ Sony KSS-240A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-60 2 x PCM58P-K ?SM5803AP Sony KSS-190A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-65 8 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AP Sony KSS-272A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-65V 8 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AS Sony KSS-272A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-67 4 x AD1955 ?AK4114VQ Sony KSS-240A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-70 8 x ICL8010ACPD Sony BU-1C 
 ACCUPHASE DP-70V 10 x ICL8010ACPD ?SM5803AP Sony KSS-190A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-75 16 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AP Sony KSS-272A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-75V 6 x AD1853 Sony KSS-272A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-77 4 x AD1853 
 ACCUPHASE DP-78 6 x AD1955 ?AK4114VQ 
 ACCUPHASE DP-80 It抯 a Transport ?CX23035 Sony BU-1C 
 ACCUPHASE DP-80L It抯 a Transport ?CXD1125QZ Sony KSS-190A 
 ACCUPHASE DP-85 6 x AD1853 
 ACCUPHASE DP-90 It抯 a Transport ?CXD2500BQ Sony KSS 
 ACCUPHASE DP-500 4 x PCM1796 
 ACCUPHASE DP-700 8 x AD1955 
 ACOUSTIC RESEARCH CD-06 TDA1541 CDM-2 
 ACOUSTIC RESEARCH CD-06SE TDA1541A CDM-4 
 ACOUSTIC RESEARCH CD-07 SAA7 220 -TDA1541 CDM-4 
 ACOUSTIC RESEARCH CD-07SE SAA7350 CDM-4 
 ADC CD-3 2 x CX20152 ?CX23034 KSS-123A 
 ADC CD-250XR PCM54 
 ADC CD-350XR PCM54HP KSS-123A 
 ADCOM GCD-575 TDA1541A KSS-212B 
 ADCOM GCD-750 4 x PCM1702 ?PMD100 Panasonic RAE0113Z 
 ADCOM GDA-600 PCM63P DAC 
 ADVANTAGE CD1 2 x PCM1702 ?NPC filter Pioneer Stable Platter PEA1343 
 AIWA DX-1000 PCM53JG-V 
 AIWA DX-M45 TDA1541 CDM-4 /25 
 AIWA XC-002 1 x PCM56P KSS-150A 
 AIWA XC-003 1 x PCM56P ?PD0036 KSS-150A 
 AIWA XC-005 2 x PCM58P KSS-150A 
 AIWA XC-007 2 x PCM56P-K KSS-151A 
 AIWA XC-300 TC9237N KSS-210A 
 AIWA XC-333 礟D6376 KSS-210A 
 AIWA XC-500 TC9237N KSS-210A 
 AIWA XC-950 SAA7350 KSS-213 
 A&D DP-7000 2 x PCM56P KSS-151A 
 A&D DP-9000 2 x PCM56P KSS-151A 
 AKAI CD-26 TDA1543A KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-37 PCM67P KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-52 PCM56P KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-55 2 x AD1856 / PCM56P ?PD0036 KSS-210A / KSS-150A 
 AKAI CD-57 PCM67P-J ?CXD1167Q KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-62 2 x PCM56P ?YM3414 Sankyo Magnetic SPM1001 
 AKAI CD-69 PCM63P ?SM5813 KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-73 2 x PCM56P KSS-151A 
 AKAI CD-79 2 x PCM63P-K ?SM5813AP KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 AKAI CD-93 2 x PCM56P KSS-151A 
 AKAI CD-A7 PCM53JP-V ?HD61902A KSS-120A / KSS-123A 
 AKAI CD-A405 1 x PCM56P KSS-123A 
 AKAI CD-D1 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 TAOHS 
 AKAI CD-M459 PCM56 
 AKAI CD-M719 1 x PCM56P MLP-7 
 AKAI CD-M839 PCM56 
 ALBA CD420 PCM54 
 ALCHEMIST FORSETI APD32A 2 x CS4334 ?CS8414 Philips 
 ALCHEMIST FORSETI APD33A It抯 a Transport Philips ECO Module 
 ALCHEMIST FORSETI APD34A 2 x CS4334 DAC 
 ALCHEMIST KRAKEN APD39A CS4334 ?CS8414 Philips 
 ALCHEMIST NEXUS APD32A 2 x TDA1549 CDM 12.1 
 ALCHEMIST TS- D-1 CS4334 ?CS8414 DAC 
 ALPINE AD-7100 CX890 Toshiba OPH-31 
 ALTIS AUDIO CENTAURI It抯 a Transport CDM 12 Ind 
 AMC CD6 SAA7323GP ?SAA7220P/B CDM-4 
 AMC CD7 SAA7323GP 
 AMC CD8A MN6474 KSS-210A 
 AMC CD8B PCM1716 
 AMC CD8D 2 x PCM1730 
 AMC CD60 PCM1716 
 ANTHEM CD1 2 x PCM1702 ?PMD100 KSK-2000A 
 APOGEE DA-1000 2 x PCM63P DAC 
 APRIL MUSIC STELLO CDT200 It抯 a Transport VAM 1210 
 APRIL MUSIC STELLO DA100 AKM4395 DAC 
 APRIL MUSIC STELLO DA220 AKM4395 DAC 
 ARAGON D2A 2 x PCM58P ?YM3623B DAC 
 ARAGON D2A2 D20400A + 2 x PCM63P-J + PMD100 DAC 
 ARCAM ALPHA TDA1541A CDM-4 
 ARCAM ALPHA ONE PCM1710 
 ARCAM ALPHA PLUS TDA1541A CDM-4 
 ARCAM ALPHA 5 TDA1541 CDM-4 
 ARCAM ALPHA 5 PLUS TDA1541A CDM-4 
 ARCAM ALPHA 6 SM5864 ?SM5840 CDM-9 
 ARCAM ALPHA 7 PCM1710 Sony CDM14 
 ARCAM ALPHA 7SE PCM1716 Sony CDM14 
 ARCAM ALPHA 8 SM5864AP ? SM5843 Sony CDM14 
 ARCAM ALPHA 8SE SM5864AP ? PMD100 Sony CDM14 
 ARCAM ALPHA 9 dCS RingDAC ? PMD100 
 ARCAM DELTA 70.2 TDA1541-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4/11 / CDM-4/31 
 ARCAM DELTA 70.3 SAA7350 
 ARCAM DELTA 110 2 x SAA7321 
 ARCAM DELTA 110.2 2 x PCM67P-J 
 ARCAM DELTA 270 PCM69AP-J CDM-9 
 ARCAM DELTA BOX 1 TDA1541A 
 ARCAM DELTA BOX 2 TDA1541A 
 ARCAM DELTA BOX 3 4 x SAA7321 
 ARCAM DELTA BOX 5 2 x PCM67P-J 
 ARCAM DIVA CD72 PCM1716 KSS-213 
 ARCAM DIVA CD73T WM8740 KSS-213 
 ARCAM DIVA CD82 2 x?WM8740s 
 ARCAM DIVA CD92 dCS RingDAC 24bit + PMD200 KSS-213 
 ARCAM DIVA CD93 4 x WM8740s 
 ARCAM FMJ CD23T dCS RingDAC KSS-213B / KSS-240A 
 ARCAM FMJ CD33 4 x WM8740 ?AD1896A KSS-213 
 ARCAM FMJ CD36 4 x WM8740 ?AD1896A KSS-213 
 ARISTON CD PLAYER TDA1541-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4/19 
 ASSEMBLAGE DAC-2 2 x PCM1702 ?PMD100 ?CS8412-CP DAC 
 ASSEMBLAGE DAC-2.6 2 x PCM1704 ?PMD100 ?CS8412-CS DAC 
 ASSEMBLAGE DAC-2.7 2 x PCM1704 ?PMD200 ?CS8414-CS DAC 
 ASSEMBLAGE DAC-3 4 x PCM1704 ?PMD100 ?CS8414-CS DAC 
 ASSEMBLAGE DAC-3.1 4 x PCM1704 ?PMD200 DAC 
 ATOLL CD 200 PCM1794 VAM 1202/12 
 AUDIO AERO CAPITOLE AD1853 Philips CD-Pro 2 (VAM 1254) 
 AUDIO AERO PRESTIGE SACD PCM1792 SACD 
 AUDIO AERO PRIMA PCM1739 VAM 1201 
 AUDIO AGILE JOCKER扴 CD SM5872BS CDM 12 
 AUDIO ALCHEMY DDE v1.0 SAA7323GP ?SAA7274P DAC 
 AUDIO ALCHEMY DDE v1.2 2 x AD1862 ?PMD100 DAC 
 AUDIO ALCHEMY DDE v3.0 2 x AD1862N ?PMD100 - CS8412-CP DAC 
 AUDIO ALCHEMY D-I-T-B 2 x AD1860 ?YM3433 DAC 
 AUDIO ANALOGUE MAESTRO AD1855 KSS-210 
 AUDIO ANALOGUE PAGANINI CS4390 
 Audio Crafters Guild X-DAC 3.0 CS4328-CP ?AD1891JN DAC 
 AUDIO DYNAMICS CD-2000E 1 x PCM56P-J ?SM5807EP CDM 12 
 AUDIO INNOVATIONS ALTO PCM1716 
 AUDIO NOTE CD-1 PCM1710 Sony / Samsung SOH-A1 
 AUDIO NOTE CD-2 AD1865 ?SM5843 KSS-210 / SOH-A1 
 AUDIO NOTE CD-2.1x AD1865 N KSS-213 
 AUDIO NOTE CD-3 AD1865 ?SM5843 SOH-A1 
 AUDIO NOTE CD-3.1x AD1865 N KSS-213 
 AUDIO NOTE CDT-ZERO PCM1710 KSS-213 
 AUDIO NOTE DAC-1 PCM63P DAC 
 AUDIO NOTE DAC-2 PCM63P-J DAC 
 AUDIO NOTE DAC-3 PCM63P-K DAC 
 AUDIO NOTE DAC-4 PCM63 P-K DAC 
 AUDIO NOTE DAC-5 AD1862N-J DAC 
 AUDIO RESEARCH CD1 SAA7341 CDM 12 
 AUDIO RESEARCH CD2 CS4329-KP CDM12.1 
 AUDIO RESEARCH CDT1 It抯 a Transport CDM12.1 
 AUDIO RESEARCH DAC1-20 UltraAnalog D20400A ?SM5803APT DAC 
 AUDIO RESEARCH DAC2 UltraAnalog D20400A ?NPC filter DAC 
 AUDIO RESEARCH DAC3 CS4328-KP ?CS8412 DAC 
 AUDIO SYNTHESIS DA-X UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 AUDIOLAB 8000 CD CS4329 CDM 12.4 
 AUDIOLAB 8000 CDM It抯 a Transport CDM-9 Pro 
 AUDIOLAB 8000 CDM II It抯 a Transport Philips CD-Pro (VAM 1252) 
 AUDIOLAB 8000 DAC TDA1547 ? SAA7350 ?SM5843AP DAC 
 AUDIOLABOR 531 PCM1702 CDM-1 Mk II 
 AUDIOMECA DAMNATION It抯 a Transport CDM 12 
 AUDIOMECA ELIXIR SAA7321GP ?CS8412-CP DAC 
 AUDIOMECA OBSESSION TDA1305T CEC-Sanyo 
 AUDIONET AudioART CD V2 AKM4395 ?CS8420 CDM 12.3 
 AURA CD-50 SAA7321 CDM-9 
 AURA CD-100 TDA1305T ?SAA7345 
 AUREX XR-V9R TD6709N 
 AUREX XR-Z90 CX890 Toshiba OPH-31 
 AVI SC2000MC PCM63P ?DF1700 ?SAA7310 CDM 12.1 / CDM-9/44 
 AYRE CX-7 PCM1738 ?DF1706 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 AYRE D-1 4 x PCM1704 ?DF1704 DVD 

 Balanced Audio Tech. VK-D5 4 x PCM63P-K ?PMD100 CDM 12 
 Bang & Olufsen Beogram CDX 2 x TDA1540P CDM-1 
 Bang & Olufsen Beogram CDX2 TDA1541A ?SAA7220 CDM-2 
 Bang & Olufsen CD5500 TDA1541A CDM-4/11 
 BENCHMARK DAC 1 AD1853 DAC 
 BESTAR CD 900 YM3020 ? YM3805 Hitachi HOP-M3 
 BLAUPUNKT CP-2650 PCM54 KSS-210 
 BLAUPUNKT CP-2950 Artech PCM54HP MLP-3C 
 BLAUPUNKT CP-2990 Artech 2 x PCM56P-J KSS-152A 
 BOW TECHNOLOGIES Wizard TDA1305 CDM 12 Pro 
 BOW TECHNOLOGIES ZZ-Eight 4 x PCM1702-K CDM 12 Pro 
 BROUN CD2/3 2 x PCM56P-J ?CXD1135QZ Sony 
 BURMEISTER 979 It抯 a Transport CDM-9 Pro 

 California Audio Labs Aria Mk III 2 x PCM58P-K 
 California Audio Labs CL10 PCM1702 + HDCD 
 California Audio Labs CL15 PCM1702 + HDCD 
 California Audio Labs Delta It抯 a Transport Panasonic RAE 
 California Audio Labs DX-1 MN66271 Panasonic RAE 
 California Audio Labs Sigma CS4328 DAC 
 California Audio Labs Sigma II PCM1728E DAC 
 California Audio Labs Tempest 2 x TDA1540 ?SAA7030 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur340c CS4338 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur540c 1 x Wolfson WM8716 Sony 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur540c v2 1 x Wolfson WM8740 Sony 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur640c 1 x Wolfson WM8740 Sony KSS-213 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur640c v2 2 x Wolfson WM8740 Sony 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO azur840c 2 x AD1955 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD1 TDA1541 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD2 4 x TDA1541 ?SAA7220 CDM-2/10 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD3 4 x TDA1541A ?SAA7220P/B CDM-1 Mk II 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD4 TDA1305 Sanyo 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD4SE CS4327 CDM 12 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD6 2 x TDA1305T Sanyo SF-91 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO D300SE CS4338 Sony 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO D500 CS4327 KSS-213 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO D500SE CS4391 KSS-213 
 Cambridge Audio DACMAGIC 2 2 x TDA1305 DAC 
 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO S700 SAA7350 DAC 
 CARVER SD/A 450 MN6474 
 CARVER TL-3100 LC7881-C 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD-300 PCM63P ? PMD100 Pioneer Stable Platter 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD-301 SM5872 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD-303 2 x PCM1704U ?PMD100 VAM 1202/12 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD 303/200 2 x PCM1704U-K ?PMD100 VAM 1202 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD 303/300 2 x PCM1792U DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710ALT 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD 306 4 x PCM1794U SCD-1 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CD-308 PCM1704U + HDCD CDM 12 
 CARY AUDIO DESIGN CDP 1 2 x PCM1792 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710ALT 
 CASEA CEPHEUS CS43122 ?CS8416 DAC 
 CASEA CORONA CS4390-KP ?CS8412 DAC 
 CAYIN CD-50T PCM1732 KSS-213Q 
 CAYIN CDT-15A PCM1732 Philips CDM 12.10 
 CAYIN CDT-17A 2 x PCM1792 Philips VAM 1206 
 CAYIN CDT-23 PCM1792 
 CAYIN VENUS CD-10i PCM1792 
 C.E.C. 530CD2 Y3015 
 C.E.C. 540CD / 640CD LC7880 ? Sanyo SF-P1 
 C.E.C. 680CD LC7881 Sanyo SF-P1 
 C.E.C. 780CD LC7881 ?YM7121R (filter) Sanyo SF-P1 
 CEC CD2100 TDA1305T CEC-Sanyo SF-P1 
 CEC CD3100 PCM67U CEC-Sanyo SF-P1 
 CEC CD3300 PCM1738 CEC-Sanyo SF-P101N 
 CEC CD3300R PCM1796 CEC-Sanyo SF-P101N 
 CEC CD5300 2 x PCM1796 
 CEC DA53 2 x PCM1796 + PCM2906 DAC 
 CEC DX71 Mk II 2 x SM5865CM DAC 
 CEC TL0 It抯 a Transport CEC-Sanyo SF-90 
 CEC TL1 It抯 a Transport CEC-Sanyo SF-90 
 CEC TL51XR 2 x PCM1796 CEC-Sanyo SF-P101N 
 CEC TL51XZ SM5865CM CEC-Sanyo SF-P101N 
 CEC TL51Z 4 x PCM1704 ?DF1706 CEC-Sanyo SF-P1 
 CEC TL51Z Mk II SM5865CM CEC-Sanyo SF-P101N 
 CEC TL53Z 2 x PCM1792 
 CEC TL5100Z 2 x PCM1702 ?SM5843AP CEC-Sanyo SF-P1 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP-1 UltraAnalog D20400 ?PMD100 CDM 12 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP-1.5 2 x PCM1704 CEC-Sanyo SF-P 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP.3 2 x PCM1702 ?PMD100 CEC-Sanyo SF-P1 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP.5 PCM1702 CDM 12.4 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP-10 2 x PCM1738 Philips VAE 1250 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDP-100 2 x PCM1738 Philips VAE 1250 Pro 
 CLASSE AUDIO CDT-1 It抯 a Transport CDM 12.4 
 CLASSE AUDIO DAC-1 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A ?PMD100 DAC 
 COMBAK REIMYO DAP-777 JVC ? JCE4315 ? K2 DAC 
 CONDOR CD950 YM3020 
 CONSONANCE CD 120 CS4396 
 CONSONANCE Droplet CDP5.0 CS4398 KSS-213 / CDM 12 
 COPLAND CDA 266 2 x PCM63P ?PMD100 KSS-240A 
 COPLAND CDA 277 2 x PCM63P ?PMD100 VRDS CMK-4 ?KSS-240A 
 COPLAND CDA 288 4 x PCM63P-K ?PMD100 VRDS CMK-4 ?KSS-240A 
 COPLAND CDA 289 4 x PCM63P ?PMD100 KSS-240A 
 COUNTERPOINT DA10E-AD AD1862N DAC 
 COUNTERPOINT DA10E-BB PCM69P DAC 
 COUNTERPOINT DA10E-CS CS4328 DAC 
 COUNTERPOINT DA10E-UA UltraAnalog D20400 DAC 
 CREEK CD42 Mk 2 CS4328 
 CREEK CD43 CS4390 CDM 14 Sony 
 CREEK CD43 Mk 2 CS4396 CDM 12 
 CREEK CD50 CS4396 CDM 12 
 CREEK CD50 Mk 2 CS4396 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 CREEK CD53 CS4396 CDM 12 
 CREEK CD60 TDA1541A-S1 ?SAA7220P/B CDM - 4/14 
 CREEK EVO CDP PCM1738 Philips VAM 1201 
 CROWN AVC-9500 AD1864 
 CROWN CD2111R LC7881 

 DBX DX 5 2 x PCM56P 
 DBX DX 900 2 x PCM56P ?SM5804B KSS-152A 
 DENON CDR-1000 AD1855 Writer 
 DENON DA-500 2 x PCM1702-J DAC 
 DENON DAP-5500 4 x PCM56P-K ?SM5804D DAC 
 DENON DCD-210 2 x PCM56P-L ?CXD2551P KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-425 PCM1712 KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-435 PCM1716E KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-460 2 x PCM56P-L KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-480 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5840AP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-485 PCM1735 KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-500 PCM54 KSS-123 / KSS-152 
 DENON DCD-500AE PCM1791 
 DENON DCD-520 PCM56P ? SM5807FP KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-560 2 x PCM61 KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-580 PCM67P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-590 PCM61 KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-595 2 x PCM61P 
 DENON DCD-610 1 x PCM56P-L KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-615 2 x PCM61P-L KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-620 2 x PCM61P KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-625 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5841 KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-635 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5841BP KSS-213B 
 DENON DCD-650F PCM1700P 
 DENON DCD-655 PCM1702 KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-660 2 x PCM61 ?CXD2551 KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-685 2 x PCM1702 KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-690 PCM61P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-695 2 x PCM61P KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-7.5 2 x PCM56P-L ?SM5840CP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-700 PCM54HP KSS-123 / KSS-152 
 DENON DCD-700AE PCM1791 
 DENON DCD-715 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5841BP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-725 2 x PCM61P-L KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-735 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5845AF KSS-213B 
 DENON DCD-755AR 2 x PCM1702 ?SM5845AF KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-770 2 x PCM61P-L ?SM5840 KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-800 1 x PCM56P ?SM5807 KSS-152A 
 DENON DCD-810 2 x PCM56P ?SM5807 KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-815 PCM61P KSS-213 
 DENON DCD-820 2 x PCM56P KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-825 2 x PCM61P ?SM5841BP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-830 2 x PCM56P KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-860 2 x PCM61P KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-890 PCM61P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-895 2 x PCM61P ?SM5841AP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-910 2 x PCM56P ?PD0036 KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-920 2 x PCM61P KSS-210A 
 DENON DCD-960 2 x PCM61P ?SM5840AP KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-970 2 x PCM61P-J KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-980 PCM61P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-1000 1 x PCM53JP-V ?CX23035 KSS-123A 
 DENON DCD-1015 2 x PCM61P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-1100 PCM53JP-V / PCM54HP ?CX23035 KSS-123A 
 DENON DCD-1130 2 x PCM61P ?SM5840 KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1290 2 x AD1860N-D ?SM5840AP KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-1300 PCM54HP-J ?SM5806P KSS-123A 
 DENON DCD-1400 2 x PCM56P-J KSS-152A 
 DENON DCD-1420 2 x PCM54HP ?SM5813 KSS-150A / KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1450AR 2 x PCM1702-L ?SM5845AF Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-1460 2 x PCM61P-J KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1500 2 x PCM54HP-K ?2 x SM5801P KSS-123A 
 DENON DCD-1500 Mk II 2 x PCM56P-J ? SM5807BP KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1500AE PCM1791 
 DENON DCD-1510 2 x PCM54HP ? SM5813AP KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1515AL 2 x PCM61P KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-1520 2 x PCM64P ? SM5813AP KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1530 2 x PCM61P ?SM5818AP KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1550AR 2 x PCM61P ?SM5845AF Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-1560 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813AP KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1600 2 x PCM56P-J KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1610 2 x PCM64P ?SM5803 KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-1630 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813 KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1650GL 4 x AD1862N-Z - SM5841- SM5828P KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-1650AR 4 x PCM1702 Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-1650SR 4 x PCM1704U 
 DENON DCD-1650AE PCM1790 ?SACD SACD 
 DENON DCD-1700 2 x PCM56P-K KSS- 123A 
 DENON DCD-1800 PCM53 Toshiba 4990039006 
 DENON DCD-1800R PCM53JP-V 4990039006 / 4990074003 
 DENON DCD-1880AR PCM61P Sharp 
 DENON DCD-2000AE PCM1790 ?SACD SACD 
 DENON DCD-2060 2 x AD1861N KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-2560 4 x AD1862N-D - SM5840-SM5828P KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-2560GL 4 x AD1862N-Z - SM5841- SM5828P KSS-150A 
 DENON DCD-2700 4 x PCM1702-J KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-2880AR 4 x PCM1702 Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-3000 4 x PCM1702-J ?SM5845 KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-3300 2 x PCM56P-K ?SM5804D KSS-123A 
 DENON DCD-3500G 2 x PCM64P ?SM5813 KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-3500RG 4 x PCM58P-K ?SM5803AP KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-3520 2 x PCM64P KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-3560 4 x PCM58P-K ?SM5803AP KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-S1 4 x PCM1702-K KSS-151A 
 DENON DCD-S10 4 x PCM1702-J ?SM5845AF KSS-240A 
 DENON DCD-S10 Mk II 4 x PCM1702-J Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-S10 Mk III 4 x PCM1704 + HDCD Sharp H8147AF 
 DENON DCD-SA1 2 x PCM1792 ?SACD SACD 
 DENON DCM-270 PCM1716E KSS-213C 
 DENON DCM-280 PCM1748 
 DENON RCD-100 PCM1710 
 DENON UCD-F1 2 x PCM61 KSS-240A 
 DENON UCD-F10 PCM61 KSS-210A 
 DIATONE DP-1000H 2 x PCM56P-S MLP-4 
 DIORA CD-502 TDA1543 CDM-4 
 DIORA CD-504 TDA1311 CDM 12.1 
 DIORA CD-704 TDA1301 ?SAA7345 CDM 12.1 
 DPA BIGGER BIT TDA1547 (DAC7) DAC 
 DPA ENLIGHTENMENT DRIVE It抯 a Transport CDM12.1 
 DPA LITTLE BIT SAA7350 ?YM3414 ?YM3623B DAC 
 DPA PDM 1 SAA7320 DAC 
 DPA PDM 1.2 SAA7322 DAC 
 DPA PDM 1.3 SAA7350 DAC 
 DPA PDM 2 2 x TDA1547 ?SAA7350 DAC 
 DPA T1 It抯 a Transport CDM-4/19 
 DUAL CD20 PCM53 KSS-123A 
 DUAL CD40 TD6705AP ?TC9179F 
 DUAL CD41 CX20017 KSS-123A 
 DUAL CD100 2 x AD1861N / PCM61P ?YM3433 KSS-210A 
 DUAL CD115 MN6471M / MN6474A KSS-210A 
 DUAL CD120 PCM53JG-V ?HD61902 
 DUAL CD130 PCM53JG-V ?TM5001 (HD61902) 
 DUAL CD135 MN6471M / MN6474A KSS-210A 
 DUAL CD1050RC 2 x AD1856N KSS-150A 
 DUAL CD1080 MN6471 / MN6474 KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 DUAL CD5070 1 x PCM56P-J ? CXD1130Q Sanyo SF-88 
 DUAL CD5150 TDA1541A ?SAA7220P/B CDM-4/19 
 DUGOOD BOUNDLESS 4 x PCM1702 ?DF1704 VAM 1201 
 DUGOOD DAC-3 AK4394VF DAC 
 DUGOOD GLORY YEAR TDA1541A ?SAA7220 VAM 1201 
 DUGOOD NEW CENTURY AK4394 Philips 

 EAD CD-1000 2 x PCM63P-K ?DF1700P Pioneer Stable Platter 
 EAD DSP-1000 SERIES II 2 x PCM63P-K DAC 
 EAD DSP-1000 SERIES III 2 x PCM63P-K ?PMD100 DAC 
 EAD DSP-7000 2 x AD1862N-J ?SM5813AP DAC 
 EAD DSP-7000 SERIES II 2 x PCM63P-K ?DF1700P ?CS8412 DAC 
 EAD DSP-7000 SERIES III 2 x PCM63P-K ?PMD100 DAC 
 EAD T-7000 It抯 a Transport Sony KHS-130A 
 EASTSOUND CD-E3 CS4390 CDM 12 
 EASTSOUND CD-E5 CS4390-KP VAM 1202 
 ELECTROCOMPANIET ECC-1 CS4398 Philips 
 EMT 981 PROFESSIONAL TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II 
 EMT 982 PROFESSIONAL TDA1547 (DAC7) CDM-9 Pro 
 ENSEMBLE DICHRONO DRIVE It抯 a Transport TEAC VRDS CMK-3 
 ENSEMBLE DICHRONO HI-DAC CS4397 DAC 
 ENSEMBLE DIRONDO DRIVE It抯 a Transport Philips CD-Pro 2 (VAM 1254) 
 Entech Number Cruncher 203.2 CS4329-KP ?CS8412-CP DAC 
 Entech Number Cruncher 205.2 CS4329-KP ?CS8412-KP DAC 
 ESTONIA 001 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-2 
 EXPOSURE CD Player TDA1545A CDM 12.4 
 EXPOSURE CD 2010 PCM1716 KSS-213 
 EXPOSURE CD 3010 2 x PCM1704 KSS-213 
 EXPOSURE CD XXII 2 x PCM1704 Sony 
 EZO FOG STAGE3 AD1853 
 FISHER AD-800 CX20017 4 180T00271 
 FISHER AD-935 LC7881 Sanyo SF-P1 
 FISHER AD-9020 PCM67P ? SM5840 KSS-210A 
 FISHER AD-M700 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 
 FISHER AD-Z1 PCM58P Sanyo SF-P1 
 Forsell Air Reference Air Bearing It抯 a Transport CDM-9 Pro 
 FUNAI CD 6600 YM3020 

 GAMUT CD1 CS4390 
 GAMUT CD3 PCM1792 
 GRUNDIG CD1 FineArts SAA7341GP CDM 12.1 
 GRUNDIG CD3 FineArts TDA1547 CDM 12.1 
 GRUNDIG CD 30 TDA1540 CDM-0 
 GRUNDIG CD 103 LC7881 Sanyo SF-90 
 GRUNDIG CD 435 LC78816 M ?YM7121C (filter) Hitachi HOP-M3 
 GRUNDIG CD 660 LC7881 Sanyo SF-90 
 GRUNDIG CD-903 TDA1541A ? SAA7220P/B CDM-2 / CDM-4 
 GRUNDIG CD-905 JVC ? JCE4302A JVC OPTIMA-5S 
 GRUNDIG CD 1000 FineArts 2 x DAC(TDA1547) ?TDA1307 CDM 12.1 
 GRUNDIG CD 5500 TDA1543 CDM-4/19 
 GRUNDIG CD 7500 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 GRUNDIG CD 7550 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-1 
 GRUNDIG CD 8100 TDA1541 CDM-2/29 
 GRUNDIG CD 8150 TDA1543 CDM-4/19 
 GRUNDIG CD 8200 TDA1541 CDM-2/10 
 GRUNDIG CD 8400 TDA1541 ? SAA7220P/A CDM-2/10 
 GRUNDIG CD 8400 Mk II TDA1541A ? SAA7220P/B CDM-2 / CDM-4 
 GRUNDIG CD 9000 TDA1541A CDM-2/29 / CDM-4/11 
 GRUNDIG CD 9009 2 x TDA1541A -S1 ? CXD1244 CDM-1 Mk II

 HARMAN KARDON HD200 YM3020 
 HARMAN KARDON HD500 PCM53 KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD710 MN6474 Sanyo 
 HARMAN KARDON HD720 PCM1710 ?LC78681 Sanyo SF-P101 
 HARMAN KARDON HD730 SAA7350 ?YM3433 KSS-240A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD740 2 x PCM1702U ?SM5843AP Sanyo SF-P101 
 HARMAN KARDON HD750 PCM1732U KSS-213C 
 HARMAN KARDON HD755 PCM1732 
 HARMAN KARDON HD760 PCM1702-K ?PMD100 Sanyo 
 HARMAN KARDON HD800 PCM56P 
 HARMAN KARDON HD970 AD1955 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7225 MN6474 KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7300 PCM61 KSS-150A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7325 MN6474 KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7400 PCM67 KSS-150A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7525 4 x PCM61P KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7625 4 x PCM61P ?SM5840 KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON HD7725 4 x PCM61P-K ?SM5840CP KSS-210A 
 HARMAN KARDON FL8350 TDA1305 
 HARMAN KARDON FL8370 PCM1732 
 HARMAN KARDON FL8380 PCM1732 
 HARMAN KARDON FL8550 PCM1702 
 HARMAN KARDON FL8570 PCM61P 
 HELIOS MODEL 1S CS4328 CDM 12.4 - Pro 
 HELIOS MODEL 2S CS4328 CDM 12.4 - Pro 
 HELIOS MODEL 3S CS4328 CDM 12.4 - Pro 
 HELIOS STARGATE CS4328 CDM 12.4 - Pro 
 HEYBROOK SIGNATURE PCM67 
 HI-VI?SOUND CD-01 2 x SM5864AP ?SM5841CS CDM 12 
 High Tech GoldLine CX904 YM3020 
 HITACHI DA-005 1 x PCM54HP-J ?2 x SM5800P Hitachi HOP-M3TR 
 HITACHI DA-006 HA12096NT 
 HITACHI DA-007 HA12096 ?TM6002 (MSM6285) 
 HITACHI DA-009 HA12096NT ?MSM6285 
 HITACHI DA-403 2 x PCM56-L ?CXD1088 Hitachi HOP-M3 
 HITACHI DA-404D 2 x AD1860N Hitachi HOP-M3 
 HITACHI DA-800 CX20017 

 JADIS JD-1 It抯 a Transport CDM-9 Pro 
 JAS-AUDIO MUSIK 1.2 PCM1732 KSS-213 
 JOLIDA JD-100A PCM1716E CDM 12.1 
 JVC XL-E900 PCM56P OPTIMA-3 
 JVC XL-V3 PCM53JP 
 JVC XL-V22 PCM54 OPTIMA-2 
 JVC XL-V221 LC7881 OPTIMA-5 
 JVC XL-V242 JVC ? JCE4501 ?CXD2551P (filter) OPTIMA-5S 
 JVC XL-V250BK PCM56 OPTIMA-2 
 JVC XL-V264 MN35500 OPTIMA-6S 
 JVC XL-V300B PCM53JP 
 JVC XL-V311BK MN6471 OPTIMA-4S 
 JVC XL-V450 PCM56 OPTIMA-2 
 JVC XL-V464 MN35500 OPTIMA-6S 
 JVC XL-V1100 2 x PCM54 OPTIMA-1 
 JVC XL-Z555 2 x PCM56P ?SM5807EP ?YM3613B OPTIMA-4S 
 JVC XL-Z1010 2 x PCM56P-J ?YM3414 OPTIMA-4S 
 JVC XL-Z1050 JVC ? JCE4501 JVC OPTIMA-5S 
 KAVENT CD831 PCM1732 Philips VAM 1202 
 KENWOOD DP-3R PCM56P Toshiba TOPH7833 
 KENWOOD DP-7i 礟D6376CX ?PD0060 
 KENWOOD DP-28 TC9268P ?LC78681E T25-0032-08 
 KENWOOD DP-47 TD6720N KSS-152A 
 KENWOOD DP-460 TD6709N 
 KENWOOD DP-700 TD6705AP Toshiba OPH-32 
 KENWOOD DP-850 CX20152 
 KENWOOD DP-880SG 2 x PCM56P X92122003 
 KENWOOD DP-990SG 2 x PCM56P-K Kenwood Metallic J91-0341 
 KENWOOD DP-1000 CX20152 ?CX23035 MLP-3C 
 KENWOOD DP-1001G TDA1547 (DAC7) 
 KENWOOD DP-1060 TC9268P ?LC78681 Sharp H8136A 
 KENWOOD DP-1080 LC78620E T25-0051-05 
 KENWOOD DP-1100 CX20017 Toshiba OPH-32 
 KENWOOD DP-1100D CX20152 
 KENWOOD DP-1100SG 2 x PCM56P -K Kenwood Metallic J91-0341 
 KENWOOD DP-1510 2 x PCM56-L ?SM5807 KSS-150A / KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-2000 CX20152 MLP-3C 
 KENWOOD DP-2010 PCM56P KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-2060 TC9268P Sharp H8136 
 KENWOOD DP-2080 LC78620E (LC78820) Sharp H8151AF 
 KENWOOD DP-3000 PCM56P -K 
 KENWOOD DP-3010 2 x PCM56P -L ? PD0036 KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-3060 SM5872BS KSS-240A 
 KENWOOD DP-3080 SM5864 ?SM5841 KSS-240A / T25-0010-05 
 KENWOOD DP-3080 Mk II Kenwood KAN-03 ?CXD2507AQ Sharp KCP1H 
 KENWOOD DP-3090 Kenwood KAN-03 ?CXD2507AQ Sharp KCP1H 
 KENWOOD DP-3300-D 2 x PCM56P-K ?SM5804B 
 KENWOOD DP-4090 Kenwood KAN-03 ?CXD2507AQ Sharp KCP1H 
 KENWOOD DP-5010 2 x PCM56P ?SM5813AP KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-5020 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5818AP KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-5040 CXD2552Q KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-5050 SAA7350 
 KENWOOD DP-5060 SM5864AP ?SM5841AP KSS-240A 
 KENWOOD DP-5090 KAN- 05 (MN35502) ? SM5843AS Sharp KCP1H 
 KENWOOD DP-6020 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5818AP KSS-150A 
 KENWOOD DP-7010 2 x PCM58P ?SM5813AP KSS-150A 
 KENWOOD DP-7020 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813AP KSS-150A 
 KENWOOD DP-7030 CXD2552Q ?SM5840CP ?SM5827 KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-7040 CXD2552Q ?SM5840CP KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-7050 TDA1547 (DAC7) ?SM5840CP KSS-210A 
 KENWOOD DP-7060 TDA1547 (DAC7) ?SM5843AP KSS-240A 
 KENWOOD DP-7090 8 x PCM1702 ?SM5843 T25-0041-05 - KSS213 
 KENWOOD DP-8010 2 x PCM58P ?SM5813AP DLBA2Z002A - Magnetic 
 KENWOOD DP-8020 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813AP KSS-152 - Magnetic 
 KENWOOD DP-X9010 It抯 a Transport ?CXD1125Q DLBA2Z002B - Magnetic 
 KENWOOD DPF-1010 CXD2587Q KSS-213C 
 KENWOOD DPF-1030 LC78620E Sharp HPC1LX 
 KENWOOD DPF-2010 CXD2587Q KSS-213C 
 KENWOOD DPF-2030 LC78620E Sharp HPC1LX 
 KENWOOD DPF-3010 Kenwood KAN-03 ?CXD2587Q KSS-213C 
 KENWOOD DPF-3030 AD1855 ?KAN06 KSS-213C 
 KENWOOD DPF-7002 8 x PCM1702 ?SM5843 KSS-213B 
 KENWOOD L-03DP CX890 Toshiba OPH-31 
 KENWOOD L-1000D 2 x CX20152 ?CXD1144 KSS-152 - Magnetic 
 KENWOOD L-D1 TDA1547 (DAC7) Kenwood CDM-21 
 KENWOOD LVD-Z1 TDA1547 (DAC7) 
 Kinergetics Research KCD-20 TDA1541A CDM-2/10 
 Kinergetics Research KCD-40 4 x AD1860N-K ?CXD1144 CDM-2 
 Kinergetics Research KCD-55 Ultra 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 KOREA CHINA CD 022 KDA0316LN (Samsung) 
 KOREA HCD 630 Y3015 
 KRELL KAV-250cd 2 x PCM1702 ?PMD100 C.E.C. ?Sanyo 
 KRELL KAV-280cd 4 x PCM1704 CDM 12 Pro 
 KRELL KAV-300cd 2 x PCM1702-K ?PMD100 VRDS CMK-4 ?KSS-240A 
 KRELL KPS 20i 4 x PCM63P-K ?Motorola XC56002F CDM-9 Pro ( CDM-9/60 ) 
 KRELL KPS 25s 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A - XC56009F JVC EXU-901A 
 KRELL KPS 25sc 4 x PCM1704 ?XC56009F ?PMD100 JVC Pro 
 KRELL KPS 28c 4 x PCM1704K ?PMD100 TEAC VRDS 
 KRELL KPS 30i 4 x PCM63P-K ?PMD100 CDM 12 Pro 
 KRELL MD-1 It抯 a Transport CDM-3 
 KRELL MD-10 It抯 a Transport CDM-3 / CDM-4 Pro 
 KRELL MD-20 It抯 a Transport CDM-1 Mk II 
 KRELL SACD STANDARD 3 x PCM1738 Philips 5.2 SACD 
 KYOCERA DA-01 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 TAOHS 
 KYOCERA DA-410cx CX20152 
 KYOCERA DA-710cx 2 x PCM56P ?SM5804B KSS-152A 
 KYOCERA DA-910 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 HLPL030010 / HLPL030020 
 LINN CD12 SONDEK 4 x PCM1702-K ?PMD100 
 LINN GENKI PCM1732 CDM 12 
 LINN MIMIK CS4328 Sony 
 LINN NUMERIC 2 x PCM63P ?DF1700 DAC 
 LINN NUMERIC Mk 3 PCM1702 DAC 
 LO?D?DA-404D 2 x AD1860N 
 LO?D?DA-703D 2 x PCM56P-J + 2 x PCM56P 
 LO?D?DAD-003 1 x PCM54HP-J ?2 x SM5800P Hitachi 
 LO?D?DAD-800 PCM53JG-V ? TM5001 (HD61902H) 
 LOEWE CD9000 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 LUXMAN D 007a It抯 a Transport ?CXD1135QZ KSS-152A 
 LUXMAN D-102 TD6709N Toshiba OPH-32 
 LUXMAN D-103U 2 x PCM1701P KSS-152A 
 LUXMAN D-105 TD6705AP 
 LUXMAN D-105U 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813AP KSS-152A 
 LUXMAN D-107U 2 x AD1860 ?SM5813AP KSS-152A 
 LUXMAN D-109 1 x PCM56P-J Sony BU-1C 
 LUXMAN D-112 1 x PCM56 
 LUXMAN D-322 2 x PCM61P ?SM5841AP KSS-240A 
 LUXMAN D-373 AD1864N-J 
 LUXMAN D-404 TD6705AP 
 LUXMAN D-500 2 x PCM1701P CDM-3 
 LUXMAN D-500X抯 II TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-3 
 LUXMAN DX-104 CX890 Toshiba OPH-31 
 LUXMAN DZ-03 2 x PCM1701P KSS-152A 
 LUXMAN DZ-92 LC7881 
 LUXMAN DZ-112 2 x PCM1701P ?SM5813 KSS-152A
 MAGNAVOX CDB465 TDA1541 CDM-2 
 MAGNAVOX CDB560 TDA1541 
 MAGNAVOX CDB650 TDA1541 CDM-2 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-1000 2 x TDA1540D CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-1010 2 x TDA1540D CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-1040 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-2000 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-2020 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-2040 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-2041 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-2 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-3000 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-3030 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 CDM-0 
 MAGNAVOX?FD-3040 2 x TDA1540P ?SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MANLEY A TO D CONVERTER 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 MANLEY DELTA SIGMA DAC CS4328-KP ?CS8412 DAC 
 MANLEY JUNIOR 20 Bit DAC 1 x UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 MANLEY Reference 20 Bit DAC 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 MANLEY WAVE 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A DAC 
 MANLEY WAVE 24 Bit 2 x PCM1704 DAC 
 MARANTZ CD-5L 1 x TDA1541 ?SAA7220P/A CDM-2/10 
 MARANTZ CD-7 2 x TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) Philips CD-Pro (VAM 1252) 
 MARANTZ CD-10 2 x TDA1547 CDM-4/36MD 
 MARANTZ CD-11 LE TDA1547 CDM-4 /D36 
 MARANTZ CD-11 Mk II 2 x TDA1547 CDM-4/D36 
 MARANTZ CD-12 TDA1541A-S1 (Double Crown) CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-14 2 x TDA1547 ?TDA1307 CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-15 2 x TDA1547 CDM-4-MD 
 MARANTZ CD-16 / CD-16SE 2 x TDA1547 ?SM5803APT CDM-4 - Metallic 
 MARANTZ CD-16D TDA1547 VAM 1201 
 MARANTZ CD-17 1 x TDA1547 ?SM5841 - SAA7350 CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-17 Mk II TDA1547 ? SM5841 - SAA7350 CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-17 Mk III 2 x PCM1716E VAM 1201 
 MARANTZ CD-19 2 x SM5872BS CDM 12 
 MARANTZ CD-23 2 x TDA1547 (DAC7) CDM-9 Pro 
 MARANTZ CD-25 2 x TDA1540 CDM-2 
 MARANTZ CD-32 SAA7350 CDM - 4 
 MARANTZ CD-34 2 x TDA1540P - SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-38 TDA1545 CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-40 TDA1541A CDM-4/19 
 MARANTZ CD-42 SAA7350 CDM - 4 
 MARANTZ CD-42 Mk II SM5872BS CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-43 1 x SM5872BS CDM 12.1/05 
 MARANTZ CD-44 2 x TDA1540 CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-45 2 x TDA1540P - SAA7030 CDM-2/29 
 MARANTZ CD-46 TDA1545A ?SAA7345GP CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-48 TDA1549 CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-50 TDA1541A ? SAA7220P/B CDM-4/Composite 
 MARANTZ CD-52 SAA7321GP ?SM5840 CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-52 Mk II SAA7350 CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-52SE SAA7350 CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-53 1 x SM5872BS CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-54 2 x TDA1540D - SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-56 TDA1541 ?SAA7220P/A CDM-2/10 / CDM-4 /25 
 MARANTZ CD-60 TDA1541A CDM-4/19 
 MARANTZ CD-62 SAA7350 CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-63 Japan Old 2 x TDA1540D CDM-0 
 MARANTZ CD-63 1 x SM5872BS CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-63 II SM5872BS CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-63 Mk II KI SM5872BS CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-63SE SM5872BS CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-65 TDA1541 CDM-2 
 MARANTZ CD-65 DX TDA1541 ? SAA7220A-SAA7210P CDM-4 /11 
 MARANTZ CD-65 Gold TDA1541-S1 ?SAA7220P/A CDM-2 
 MARANTZ CD65 Mk II TDA1541 A ?SAA7220P/B CDM-4/19 
 MARANTZ CD-67 SM5872 CDM 12.1 
 MARANTZ CD-67SE SM5872 CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-67 II OSE SM5872 CDM 12.3 
 MARANTZ CD-72 SAA7350 CDM-4/19 
 MARANTZ CD-72a TDA1547 CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD-72 Mk II SE TDA1547 CDM-4 /28 
 MARANTZ CD-73 2 x TDA1540D - SAA7030 CDM-0 
 MARANTZ CD-74 2 x TDA1540P - SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-75 TDA1541 ?SAA7220 CDM-2/10 / CDM-4/25 
 MARANTZ CD75 Mk II TDA1541 A CDM-1 Mk II 
 MARANTZ CD-80 TDA1541 A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II 
 MARANTZ CD-84 2 x TDA1540P - SAA7030 CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD84 Mk II TDA1541 CDM-2 
 MARANTZ CD-85 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II 
 MARANTZ CD-94 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD94 Mk II 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-95 2 x TDA1541A-S1 + 2 x SAA7220P/B CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD-99SE 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 
 MARANTZ CD273 TDA1541A CDM-2 
 MARANTZ CD583 TDA1541A CDM-2 / CDM-4 
 MARANTZ CD650 TDA1541 ?SAA7220P/A CDM-2/10 / CDM-4/25 
 MARANTZ CD880J TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II 
 MARANTZ CC3000 TDA1545 
 MARANTZ CD4000 TDA1545 - SAA7378 CDM 12.1 (VAM 1201) 
 MARANTZ CD5000 TDA1549 - SAA7378 CDM 12.1 (VAM 1201) 
 MARANTZ CD5001 CS4392 KSS-213C 
 MARANTZ CD5001-OSE CS4392 KSS-213C 
 MARANTZ CD5400 CS4392 KSS-213C 
 MARANTZ CD5400-OSE CS4392 KSS-213C 
 MARANTZ CD6000 2 x SM5872 - SAA7378 CDM 12.3 (VAM 1203) 
 MARANTZ CD6000KI 2 x SM5872 BS ?SAA7372 CDM 12.3 (VAM 1203) 
 MARANTZ CD6000-OSE 2 x SM5872 BS ?SAA7372 VAM 1201 
 MARANTZ CD6002 CS4398 
 MARANTZ CD7300 CS4396 VAM 1202 
 MARANTZ CDA 94 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) DAC 
 MARANTZ CDV780 TDA1541A 
 MARANTZ PROJECT D-1 2 x TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) DAC 
 MARANTZ SA-1 4 x DAC7 (TDA1547) ? TDA1307 CDM-10 
 MARANTZ SA-7S1 2 x SM5866AS SACDM-1 
 MARANTZ SA-11S1 / S2 SM5866AS SACDM-1 
 MARANTZ SA-12S1 2 x CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA-13S1 CS4397-KS SACD 
 MARANTZ SA-14 CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA-15S1 CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA-17S1 3 x CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA7001 CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA8001 CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA8260 3 x CS4397 SACD 
 MARANTZ SA8400 CS4397 SACD 
 MARK LEVINSON No 30 2 x UltraAnalog D20400 ?NPC Filter DAC 
 MARK LEVINSON No 30.5 2 x UltraAnalog D20400A ?PMD100 DAC 
 MARK LEVINSON No 30.6 4 x PCM1704 DAC 
 MARK LEVINSON No 31.5 It抯 a Transport CDM 12 Ind 
 MARK LEVINSON No 36 4 x PCM1702-K ?PMD100 ?CS8412 DAC 
 MARK LEVINSON No 37 It抯 a Transport CDM 12 Ind 
 MARK LEVINSON No 39 PCM1702 (PCM1704) CDM 12 Ind 
 MARK LEVINSON No 360S 4 x PCM1704 DAC 
 MARK LEVINSON No 390S 2 x AD1853 Philips CD-Pro (VAM 1252) 
 MBL 1521 It抯 a Transport CDM 12 Ind 
 MBL 1621 It抯 a Transport CDM 12 Pro 
 MCINTOSH? MCD201 CS4398 RAYMEDIA RMC RL-S880 
 MCINTOSH? MCD751 It抯 a Transport TEAC VRDS 
 MCINTOSH? MCD7000 TDA1540 CDM-0 
 MCINTOSH? MCD7005 TDA1541A CDM-2/10 
 MCINTOSH? MCD7007 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 
 MCINTOSH? MCD7008 2 x PCM1700P 
 MERACUS TANTO CS4327KS 
 MERIDIAN MCD TDA1540 CDM-1 
 MERIDIAN MCD-Pro TDA1540 CDM-1 
 MERIDIAN 203 2 x SAA7321 
 MERIDIAN 203 Mk II TDA1547 (DAC7) 
 MERIDIAN 206 TDA1541 
 MERIDIAN 207 TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) CDM-1 / CDM-4 
 MERIDIAN 208 2 x SAA7321 
 MERIDIAN 500 It抯 a Transport CDM 12 
 MERIDIAN 506 CS4328 - SAA7310 CDM 12.4 
 MERIDIAN 506.24 CS4390 CDM 12 
 MERIDIAN 507 CS4390 
 MERIDIAN 507.24 AD1852JRC Philips VAL 1250 
 MERIDIAN 508 CS4329 - SAA7310 CDM 12.3 
 MERIDIAN 508.24 CS4390 CDM 12.5 
 MERIDIAN 588 CS4391 VAE 1250 
 MERIDIAN G06 AD1852 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 MERIDIAN G07 AD1852 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 MERIDIAN G08 AD1852 DVD-ROM DVS DSL-710A 
 METAXAS MASDAC UltraAnalog D20400 DAC 
 METAXAS MAS PHOS It抯 a Transport CDM-9 
 MICRO CD-M1 2 x TDA1540D ?SAA7030 TAOHS 
 MICRO CD-M2 TDA1541 CDM-1 
 MICROMEGA CD AD1852 VAM 1202 
 MICROMEGA CD132 AD1853 VAM 1202 
 MICROMEGA CD F1 It抯 a Transport CDM-1 Mk II 
 MICROMEGA DATA It抯 a Transport CDM 12 
 MICROMEGA DIALOG TDA1547 DAC 
 MICROMEGA LEADER SAA7321GP CDM-4/19 
 MICROMEGA LOGIC SAA7321 
 MICROMEGA MINIUM TDA1549 CDM 12.2 
 MICROMEGA PREMIUM18 CS4327 KSS-213 CCM 
 MICROMEGA SOLO TDA1547 CDM 12 
 MICROMEGA STAGE2 SAA7321GP CDM 12.4 
 MICROMEGA STAGE4 TDA1305 CDM 12.3 
 MICROMEGA STAGE5 2 x TDA1305 CDM 12.1 
 MICROMEGA STAGE6 2 x TDA1305 CDM 12.3 
 MISSION-Cyrus CD 6S PCM1738 CDM 12 
 MISSION-Cyrus CD 7 PCM1716 CDM 12.1 
 MISSION-Cyrus CD 8x 2 x PCM1738 Philips 
 MISSION-Cyrus DAC5 TDA1547 DAC 
 MISSION-Cyrus Dacmaster 2 x AD1862N ?SM5813APT DAC 
 MISSION-Cyrus dAD1 TDA1311 CDM 12.4 
 MISSION-Cyrus dAD3 TDA1305 CDM 12.4 
 MISSION-Cyrus dAD3Q AD1861 CDM 12.4 
 MISSION-Cyrus dAD7 AD1861 CDM-9 
 MISSION DAD7000 TDA1540 CDM-1 
 MISSION PCM II TDA1541A CDM-4/11 
 MISSION PCM4000 TDA1541 
 MISSION PCM7000 TDA1541 CDM-2/10 
 MITSUBISHI DP109 PCM56 
 MITSUBISHI M-C5100 2 x PCM56P ?YM3414 Sankyo SPM1001-8811A 
 MONARCHY AUDIO MODEL 18B 2 x AD1860N ?YM3434 DAC 
 MONARCHY AUDIO MODEL 22B 2 x PCM63P-K ?SM5813APT DAC 
 MONARCHY AUDIO MODEL 22C 4 x PCM63P-K ? DF1704 DAC 
 MONARCHY AUDIO MODEL 24 2 x PCM63P-K ?DF1704 DAC 
 MONARCHY AUDIO MODEL 33 2 x PCM63P-K ?SM5813APT DAC 
 MONRIO TOP-LOADER CS4390-KP Philips CD-Pro (VAM 1252) 
 MUSIC HALL CD-25 PCM1732 CDM 12.10 
 MUSIC HALL CD25.2 PCM1738 VAM 1202 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY A2 YDC103 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY A3 DAC PCM1738E ?CS8420 DAC 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY A3.2 PCM1738E 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY A3.5 PCM1738 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY C2 YDC103 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY Digilog TDA1541 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY E60 YDC103 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY E624 PCM1716 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY FCD SAA7350 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY Nu -Vista 3D PCM1738 Sony 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY Tri-Vista PCM1738 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY Tri-Vista 21 PCM1792 DAC 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY X-24K PCM1716 DAC 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY X-RAY PCM1716 Sony 
 MUSICAL FIDELITY X-RAY V3 PCM1732 Philips 
 MYRYAD T-10 CS4327 Sony 
 MYRYAD T-20 CS4327 Sony 
 MYRYAD MC100 CXD2565 CDM 14 - Sony 
 MYRYAD MCD600 CS4396 
 MYRYAD MXC6000 2 x CS4396 Sony 
 MYRYAD Z110 CS4391 KSS-213B


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/PCM56PK-PCM56P-K-/150589430202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230fd459ba
> 
> Is that the best PCM56P to your ears?


 

 Sorry *robeert1*-I was too busy and haven't payed attention to that matter - NO - that one on Ebay  is not K grade - it is J grade. The index of the grade you will find down on the left side of the chip - please have a look again. Principally J grade is not bad at all but not as good as K grade. It seems to me the one on the picture in Ebay is fake one - first it is coming from Hong Kong and the sign is *PCM56PK - J* which is not mentioned in the official BurrBrown specification I have already sent to you.. My opinion.
  Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

niamex: I bought a pair of those from ebay yesterday. I'll see if they are better then the stock ones.


----------



## robeeert1

Any source of PCM56P-K original? I'm very interested. thanks guys


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> niamex: I bought a pair of those from ebay yesterday. I'll see if they are better then the stock ones.


 


  Please note that you need a matched pair what means that both channels /left and right/ will sound same - you got it ?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Please note that you need a matched pair what means that both channels /left and right/ will sound same - you got it ?


 

 I guess they are not matched. I see I hurried up with that purchase. It must be difficult to find a matched pair unless they are taken out from working CD-player.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I guess they are not matched. I see I hurried up with that purchase. It must be difficult to find a matched pair unless they are taken out from working CD-player.


 
  That's right. I will look around and imform in case I find some pair. There is a chance yours to be quite similar and by all means much better than the L grade but only in case they are really Japanese which I hardly believe. Please note that Burr Brown  /now Texas instruments/ ceased the PCM56P production in Japan long time ago so the crooks are simply cleaning off the sign and printing another /Japan/ on the chips.


----------



## robeeert1

Niamex:
   
  http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/84608S9189437N7713?region=na&whereFrom=partDetailClickThrough
   
  Is there any chance they are selling originals?


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Niamex:
> 
> http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/84608S9189437N7713?region=na&whereFrom=partDetailClickThrough
> 
> Is there any chance they are selling originals?


 
  I do not know, may be someone else will give us some info but I haven't seen a matched pairs,  which is the most important goal and frankly speaking I wouldn't pay attention to that offer. For  about 100 EUR you can get a top player which may need some cleaning and some power line or whatever upgrade and you will have a good transport for your CD collection and a pair of original PCM56P-K chips. It is your decision anyway.
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## niamex




----------



## Alexdad54

Digi-Key has them (no indication if they're made in Japan or not) but the minimum quantity is 50 for ordering.
  http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/482814-ic-serial-input-16-bit-d-a-16dip-pcm56p-k.html


----------



## fdhfdy

this is a nice dac.


----------



## robeeert1

I've  received the DACs today. The difference is fundamental at least in classics.
 It's very hard to describe the sonic differences between the DACS because everything changed. It's not the same like changing cables or tubes,
 you can easily hear that different DACs (parts of the Havana) are creating the sound.
  The timbre and resolution are better.
 Especially on transparent system and my electrostatic headphones.
 The super change for super change money.  Thanks Niamex. WOW !

 I do not really think these are fake, quality of writings are better than on original Korea DACs.
 I have to purchase another pair of these for spare.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I've  received the DACs today. The difference is fundamental at least in classics.
> It's very hard to explain the sonic differences between the DACS because everything changed. It's not the same like changing cables or tubes,
> you can easily hear that different DACs (parts of the Havana) are creating the sound.
> The timbre and resolution are better.
> ...


 
   
  Are those the ones you ordered from Arrow?


----------



## robeeert1

http://cgi.ebay.com/PCM56PK-PCM56P-K-/150589430202?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D2%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D809791056519016468
   
  These are actually shipped from Singapure not from Hong Kong.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I've  received the DACs today. The difference is fundamental at least in classics.
> It's very hard to describe the sonic differences between the DACS because everything changed. It's not the same like changing cables or tubes,
> you can easily hear that different DACs (parts of the Havana) are creating the sound.
> The timbre and resolution are better.
> ...


 

 I am happy you are pleased with the replacement. Let's see what is happening after I send you the matched couple from the KENWOOD. Otherwise the coupe you got seems OK to me.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Sorry Robert, I have just payed attention - your DAC/s are J grade and I will send you a K grade which is the top grade. So do not order J grade please.
  Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Sorry Robert, I have just payed attention - your DAC/s are J grade and I will send you a K grade which is the top grade. So do not order J grade please.
> Cheers


 


 What is the difference between K and L grade? Is it so big as between L and J grade?


----------



## Dynobot

Maybe this is incorrect.....
   
*TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION*
*VO = ±FS at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –94 –92 dB*
*PCM56P-J –94 –88 dB*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –94 –82 dB
*PCM56P-L –94 –80 dB*

*VO = –20dB at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –75 –74 dB*
*PCM56P-J –75 –68 dB*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –75 –68 dB
*PCM56P-L –75 –60 dB*

*VO = –60dB at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –35 –34 dB*
*PCM56P-J –35 –28 dB*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –35 –28 dB
*PCM56P-L –35 –20 dB*


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Maybe this is incorrect.....
> 
> *TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION*
> *VO = ±FS at f = 991Hz: *
> ...


 

 No,that's correct and explains everything !   Forget about the high values on the left side - there is no chance the quality control to miss a chip showing for example 92 db and mark it as J grade - no  - it is marked K and goes to the first qlty basket. Therefore if you have a J grade chip the best chance is to get 91 db and the worst 88 db - at the same time K grade is  min 92 db and in the best case 94 db which is really very good. I mean you can hear better the blackness or the silence in case you have better S/N -/signalt to noise/ ratio.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

*TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION*
*VO = ±FS at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –94 –92 dB*
*PCM56P-J –94 –88 dB    /92-88/*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –94 –82 dB   /88-82/
*PCM56P-L –94 –80 dB  /     82-80/*

*VO = –20dB at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –75 –74 dB*
*PCM56P-J –75 –68 dB  /74-68/*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –75 –68 dB  /74-68/
*PCM56P-L –75 –60 dB   /68-60.*

*VO = –60dB at f = 991Hz: *
*PCM56P-K –35 –34 dB*
*PCM56P-J –35 –28 dB  /34-28/*
 PCM56P, PCM56U –35 –28 dB  /34-28/
*PCM56P-L –35 –20 dB  /28-20/*
   
   
  Look at the figures in the brackets - I thing they show more realistic maximum values you can expect.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Sorry, even worse - the maximum values are  even 1 db less than I mentioned in my previous post - excuse me.


----------



## robeeert1

Thanks guys, all clear, It's time to get K grade ones and test them now.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Thanks guys, all clear, It's time to get K grade ones and test them now.


 


  If you locate more than two ... let me know and I'll pick up a couple as well. 
   
  Thanks in advance...
   
  .j


----------



## Alexdad54

I'd be in for two as well!


----------



## Dynobot

Check Mouser for the K grade.
   
  $18.00 each
   
  http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=PCM56P-K


----------



## robeeert1

What is the difference between PCM56P-K and PCM56P-KG4 ? KG4 is only one in stock on mouser.


----------



## Dynobot

I contacted Mouser to ask the about the KG4 and the K product.
   
   
*




*Please wait for a Web Chat Representative to respond.
*



*You are now chatting with 'Tamara'
*Tamara: *Good Morning Edward
*Tamara: *How may I assist you
*Edward: *Good morning
* Edward: Can you tell me the difference between the PCM56P-KG4 and the PCM56P-K product?*
*Tamara: *One moment please, let me get a tech to assist you
*Edward: *Ok
*



*Please wait while I transfer you to 'Tech Larry'.
*



*You are now chatting with 'Tech Larry'
*Tech Larry: *Hello, I am a technical support representative.  Please give me a moment while I review your request.
*Edward: *Ok
* Tech Larry: The G4 indicates this product was given a "green" rating. There no notable difference in these two part numbers.*
*Edward: *Ok, so both products are the "K" series?
*Tech Larry: *correct
*Edward: *Ok thank you very much.


----------



## Alexdad54

Any idea if these are made in Japan or not? Or doesn't it matter......


----------



## niamex

I think it matters very much. These are unknown products made somewhere sometime. They do not have even the sign of BB - forget it. Could be manufactured somewhere by order of TI but I do not believe it - I wander whether TI are producing something without a sign.


----------



## Dynobot

Do you think a product that performs to spec will sound differently if is were made in two different locations?
   
  Products out of tolerance will get rejected in either case.
   
  However if a stamping helps the perception of superiority then so be it....


----------



## Dynobot

Made by Texas Instruments in Malaysia....if it makes any difference.  I would guess that Texas Instruments has factories all over the world and they all operate to the same standards....I guess.
   
*Chat with Mouser:* 10:50AM EST
   
*



*You are now chatting with 'Emily'
*Emily: *Good morning Edward, how may I help you today?
*Edward: *Hello, I have a question about the PCM56P-K product
*Edward: *The photo does not show any identification on the chip, is this made by Texas Instruments or some other company? In the US or other?
*Edward: *Hello, good morning Emily
*Emily: *I am reviewing the product.  One moment.
*Emily: This product is made by Texas Instruments, and its country of origin is Malaysia.*
*Edward: *Ok Thank you


----------



## robeeert1

What purpose did Texas Instruments build factories in several countries doing the same. (Korea, Japan, Malaysia)?. I suppose they don't have its own factory at all.
 They simply order their DACs in various factories choosing the best offer. (the cheapest).
 I think there is no quality standard. This is my opinion only. I may be wrong.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> What purpose did Texas Instruments build factories in several countries doing the same. (Korea, Japan, Malaysia)?. I suppose they don't have its own factory at all.
> They simply order their DACs in varies factories choosing the best offer. (the cheapest).
> I think there is no quality standard. This is my opinion only. I may be wrong.


 

 Absolutely right.
  First - there is no such an animal - a chip without a sign,
  Second - I have two matched pairs of brand new and unused PCM56P-K officially manufactured in Malaisia by BB and they have all the printings on them - year of production, number of the mfg line etc.
  Third - I will never put them in my Havana.
  Fourth - It is your money and your decision
   
  Cheers


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> What purpose did Texas Instruments build factories in several countries doing the same. (Korea, Japan, Malaysia)?. I suppose they don't have its own factory at all.
> They simply order their DACs in varies factories choosing the best offer. (the cheapest).
> I think there is no quality standard. This is my opinion only. I may be wrong.


 


  Absolutely correct.
   
  TI owns the specs for the product, they survey the world for a chip maker who can produce the chips in the amount required "to spec" for the least amount of money.
   
  However all products, from burgers to hotdogs to volume knobs are made with quality. No quality specs = you turn a product on and it might work, or blow up or who knows what.
   
  Done deal.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> TI owns the specs for the product, they survey the world for a chip maker who can produce the chips in the amount required "to spec" for the least amount of money.
> 
> ...


 

 So why does the same product made in various factories sound different? The answer is:  because it's made of different materials.


----------



## Dynobot

Which product?


----------



## Dynobot

Has anyone tried the JAN tubes in their Havana???
   
  When I used to own one I purchased just about every 5670,369A,2C51 tube I could find. 
   
  Still have a bunch of tubes left and was thinking about giving the Havana another shot.


----------



## Dynobot




----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> What purpose did Texas Instruments build factories in several countries doing the same. (Korea, Japan, Malaysia)?. I suppose they don't have its own factory at all.
> They simply order their DACs in various factories choosing the best offer. (the cheapest).
> I think there is no quality standard. This is my opinion only. I may be wrong.


 


  Supply chain management. It is a complex management of parts, components and manufacturing of a product. From component lead time, customer projected orders, inventory control, etc...


----------



## Dynobot

This is no different than Apple computers, TV's, Cars, cloths or any other product.
   
  In todays Global economies products are built where costs are cheapest in order to maximize profits.
   
  Nothing new.


----------



## wuwhere

Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Believe me this happens all the time. A sales account manager gets a call for an order of 5k DAC chips to be delivered at the beginning of July. That's a very small order. So the sales guy calls the factory in Malaysia, they can't do it, their line is tide up for the next 6 months from an Apple's big order. He calls the factory in in Japan, same thing, Motorola has a big order for the next 3 months. He calls the factory on Korea, they have an idle time of one week from the beginning of August, 5k DACs can be made in a week but parts have to be ordered and what is the lead time on these parts? The sales account manager calls back the customer, he can have it in 8 weeks.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Believe me this happens all the time. A sales account manager gets a call for an order of 5k DAC chips to be delivered at the beginning of July. That's a very small order. So the sales guy calls the factory in Malaysia, they can't do it, their line is tide up for the next 6 months from an Apple's big order. He calls the factory in in Japan, same thing, Motorola has a big order for the next 3 months. He calls the factory on Korea, they have an idle time of one week from the beginning of August, 5k DACs can be made in a week but parts have to be ordered and what is the lead time on these parts? The sales account manager calls back the customer, he can have it in 8 weeks.


 
   
  However, even though all the factories produce the exact same product from the exact same spec Audiophile consumers think that the Japanese product sounds best.
   
  Now the Sales account manager is stuck with 5K chips that were to be destine for the Audiophile market that he can't move because the ink says Korea instead of Japan.
   
  Go figure


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> However, even though all the factories produce the exact same product from the exact same spec Audiophile consumers think that the Japanese product sounds best.
> 
> Now the Sales account manager is stuck with 5K chips that were to be destine for the Audiophile market that he can't move because the ink says Korea instead of Japan.
> 
> Go figure


 


  Not really. The customer can go somewhere else if he wants a DAC chip with a made in Japan stamp. The machines that make the chips are all the same, the manufacturing process is all the same.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> Not really. The customer can go somewhere else if he wants a DAC chip with a made in Japan stamp. The machines that make the chips are all the same, the manufacturing process is all the same.


 


  The only place the consumer can do is dig around in old vintage gear with old used chips that were made in Japan. Because the Japanese factory that once made the chips is now tied up making chips for TV's and Phones.
   
  Such is the very real situation we are in today.
   
  But this consumer [knowing that all the chips are the same] will go ahead and purchase the Malaysian chips and be on his marry way....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  BTW, Mouser informed me that BB is no longer making the chips anywhere, so once all inventories are gone the chip is history.  Mouser only has 42 of the K series chips left. Ebay has none...


----------



## wuwhere

There may very well be differences in sound, the wafer, components inside, manufacturing environment, etc... But the measured specs are within the limit but borderline. I've experienced this before so sometimes the limits are "relaxed".


----------



## Dynobot

Ok by me....
   
  Production runs today are no doubt of higher tolerance that 20 years ago.
   
  I will let me ears be the judge.
   
  Happy Listening...


----------



## loserica

Hi,
   
  A significant change which will highlights entire rig is the source! Say to those who does not have an Apple Mac.
  Operating system and the hardware are superior than `classical` computers. Differences in sound playback are substantial.  We can say that Havana has indeed a beautiful sound-stage and sound elements are well placed in `listening space`.




  Thank`s.


----------



## niamex

Guys,
  I think something  is very wrong  around here. We are talking about music – not technical developments. Music is what matters and everything else is just computers,  oscilloscopes and whatever. You have to know that that dac chips, caps, resistors, connectors,  interconnects, power cords etc . are supposed  to bring your sound  at home as much as possible to the real musical ambient which you experienced. But how do you now   the “real’ taste of acoustic if you have never heard alive Nigel Kennedy, Marcus Miller, Chick Corea, Ibrahim Ferrer, Al  DiMeola, Antonio Forcione, Philharmonic orchestras etc. etc.  Please do not try to impose  an abstract opinion which is not based on the real musical effect of the components and rigs. Otherwise there is a chance to wrongly influence some young /or may be some not so young/ people in their sonic imaginations and research in this field.
  Cheers,


----------



## mikemalter

I think it's a good idea to get a stand-alone DAC.  That way you can evolve parts of your system over time.


----------



## kendrab

This thread has been a great source of info for me, and has convinced me to get a Havana DAC for my system.
  I ran across a used Havana DAC online, with Bendix 2c51 and WE 396a tubes included as well as upgraded output caps for $650.
  It is ordered, and I should have it in a week or so.
   
  My plan is to feed it a signal from my Windows 7 PC with J. River Media Center running WASAPI through a USB cable to an Audiophilleo 2 USB to SPDIF convertor. This is an extremely low jitter asynchronous USB to SPDIF convertor, with jitter rated at less than 5 ps.  It was indicated in this thread that R2R NOS DAC's are sensitive to jitter, so this should help quite a bit.
   
  I will spend the first month using a Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB cable direct from my PC, and will add the Audiophilleo 2 in about a month.
  If the Havana DAC is as good as it is reputed to be, I will eventually tweak it further. I want to get this DAC performing at its best, as I plan on keeping it for a long time.
   
  From what I have gathered, the following are potential upgrades:
   
  Replace the OEM fuse with a 5 mm x 20 mm 400 mA Slow Blow fuse from Hi Fi Tuning or Furutech
  Use a JW WE 396a vacuum tube from the 50's
  Replace the two input caps /0.01 uf/ with russian NOS military glass silver mica 
  Replace C12 - 1000 pf silver mica  with 0.01 uf silver mica
  Replace the four electolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones 
  electrolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones elreplacing four electrolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones replacing four electrolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones replacing four electrolytic caps in the signal path with non-polar ones electrolyticelelelUpgrade the output caps to something between 2-3.6 uF 600VA (don't know what this DAC was upgraded with yet).
  Replace the resistors around the tube socket with low noise tantalum versions
  Upgrade from the Burr Brown PCM56L DAC chips to a higher spec Burr Brown PCM56J's (preferrably from Japan??), provided I can get a matched set (How do you test for a proper match anyway?)
  Mounting the Havana DAC on good vibration damping feet, like Vibracones with Vibrapods to reduce microphonic influences.
  Use a good non-shielded power cord
    
  I will start with replacing the fuse, as it seems to have an impact on how the tubes sound.
  Then I will order a good cryoed vacuum tube, like a 1954 JW-2C51 WE
  The next step will be to mount the DAC on a set of Vibrapods and matching vibracones, to reduce vibration.
  I will try to find a set of matched DAC chips to replace the current ones, prefferably in the PCM56J versions, although I am also willing to try a set of AD1856NK 's for comparison.
   
  At this point, I will evaluate if I need to take things further. If I do take anothernext step, it will be to have the caps and resistors replaced by a competent company like Parts Connexion.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> tential upgrades:
> Upgrade from the Burr Brown PCM56L DAC chips to a higher spec Burr Brown PCM56J's (preferrably from Japan??), provided I can get a matched set (How do you test for a proper match anyway?)


 

 FYI the highest grade is K for the PCM56 chips, I doubt very seriously if any chips are matched or can be matched realistically. Also they have not been made in Japan for years, in fact they are no longer produced at all...only chips from Malaysia are available until stock runs out.  For what its worth they are still BB chips just from a different factory.


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Thanks guys, all clear, It's time to get K grade ones and test them now.


 


 If you find a source for these, let me know, as I want to buy a set as well.


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





niamex said:


> I am happy you are pleased with the replacement. Let's see what is happening after I send you the matched couple from the KENWOOD. Otherwise the coupe you got seems OK to me.
> Cheers


 


 Do you have a set of matched PCM56P-k's you are willing to sell?
  I am looking at ordering a pair from Arrow  at $13.07 USD each, but am not sure if they are a close match or what, and they couldn't tell me anything beyong the fact these are the top of the line and are a closer match as a result.
   


  Quote: 





niamex said:


> Sorry Robert, I have just payed attention - your DAC/s are J grade and I will send you a K grade which is the top grade. So do not order J grade please.
> Cheers


----------



## milosolo

Is it really necessary to do these mods to make it function/sound better? It makes me wonder why something in this price range should need such extensive mods and why it doesn't perform better out of the box? You might as well go the DIY route. I don't have the time nor desire to mess around with something this much so I guess I'll pass on this unit. Good luck with it! 
  
  Quote: 





kendrab said:


> This thread has been a great source of info for me, and has convinced me to get a Havana DAC for my system.
> I ran across a used Havana DAC online, with Bendix 2c51 and WE 396a tubes included as well as upgraded output caps for $650.
> It is ordered, and I should have it in a week or so.
> 
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





milosolo said:


> Is it really necessary to do these mods to make it function/sound better? It makes me wonder why something in this price range should need such extensive mods and why it doesn't perform better out of the box? You might as well go the DIY route. I don't have the time nor desire to mess around with something this much so I guess I'll pass on this unit. Good luck with it!


 

 It is not necessary to perform these mods. The Havana sounds great unmodded and upgrading the tubes should give you the sound you are looking for.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> Do you have a set of matched PCM56P-k's you are willing to sell?
> I am looking at ordering a pair from Arrow  at $13.07 USD each, but am not sure if they are a close match or what, and they couldn't tell me anything beyong the fact these are the top of the line and are a closer match as a result.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





milosolo said:


> Is it really necessary to do these mods to make it function/sound better? It makes me wonder why something in this price range should need such extensive mods and why it doesn't perform better out of the box? You might as well go the DIY route. I don't have the time nor desire to mess around with something this much so I guess I'll pass on this unit. Good luck with it!


 

 There are plenty of people who have Havana DACs and are perfectly happy with them. It was the fact the Havana DAC got such good reviews from owners here that made me buy one. When I listed the possible modifications in my previous post, it was partly to summarize what other people were doing. It was not a must do "prescription" for a bad design. Rather it is an ingredient list that can be mixed in as desired to make a very good DAC an even better one.
   
  I have a modest income, and will never be able to buy the latest in Audio Research or DCS D/A conversion. But I can take a great DAC purchased at a good price ($700 with spare tubes) and put another $400-$500 into it to make it better. Given that I am trying to maximize 16 bit 44.1 kHz files and have no interest in 24 bit 96 kHz/192 kHz files, the Havana DAC is a really good fit for me. Making a few changes to enhance its already solid performance will simply make that fit a little better.


----------



## robeeert1

Kendrap,
   
  Make the following changes:
   
  First of all replace the chip (the stock one is really bad) with PCM56P-K grade (made in Korea or made in Japan)  remember  "K" grade only (made in Japan is a little better)
  Replace the tube with Bendix 6385,
  Replace three caps with Russian silver mica ones.
   
   
  After these mods you can compare Havana to $3k worth DACs


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Kendrap,
> 
> Make the following changes:
> 
> ...


 


 I have two sets of PCM56P-K DAC chips on order from Arrow Electronics.
  I hope they are from Korea or Japan, but am not positive.
  But at $13.09 each, it is a relatively small gamble.
  If they don't work out, I will consider that set you told me about.
   
  As far as tubes go, I have a JW Western Electric 396a right now, and I have a line on one of the rare Bendix TE-21 tubes that were used by the military.
  At about $100, it is a little expensive, but I have heard good things about it. If it is still available in mid-September, I will order it up.
   
  Are the white capacitors in the pictures the ones to be upgraded to silver mica versions?
  Would these silver mica capacitors be a suitable choice? http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_silvermica.html 
  If not, where do I find NOS Russian silver mica caps?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I have two sets of PCM56P-K DAC chips on order from Arrow Electronics.
> I hope they are from Korea or Japan, but am not positive.
> But at $13.09 each, it is a relatively small gamble.
> If they don't work out, I will consider that set you told me about.
> ...


 

  

 Arrow Electronics don't have Korean nor Japanese chips PCM56P. They have Malaysian. (ask headfier "niamex" about their sound, he owns some pairs)
  The best cheap is from Japan K-grade, you can find it only purchasing a vintage cd player. You can have it for about $100, but believe me it's worth
  buying. Korean chips PCM56P-K are also very good.
  Bendix 6385 is the best, if you have a chance to get it for $100 good condition,  do not hesitate. Ask the seller about the year of manufacture.
  Bendix 6385 from '50 and Bendix 6385 from '60 are different sounding ones.
   
  About the Russian caps 0,1uF ask my friend "niamex", He's the one who shipped me some of them.
  They are on the photo below.


----------



## kendrab

"The best cheap is from Japan K-grade, you can find it only purchasing a vintage cd player." """
   
  I think I found a CD player with the right Burr-Brown PCM56P-K chipsets.
  It is a Yamaha CDX-910U Natural Sound CD Player , and I can get it for $110 CAD.
  Can anyone confirm this has the proper K level chips?
   
  I will be using them for my Havana DAC.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kendrab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have a modest income, and will never be able to buy the latest in Audio Research or DCS D/A conversion. But I can take a great DAC purchased at a good price ($700 with spare tubes) and put another $400-$500 into it to make it better. Given that I am trying to maximize 16 bit 44.1 kHz files and have no interest in 24 bit 96 kHz/192 kHz files, the Havana DAC is a really good fit for me. Making a few changes to enhance its already solid performance will simply make that fit a little better.


 
   
  x2


----------



## kendrab

I recently upgraded to a set of Burr-Brown PCM56PK-K chips from a used Denon CD player. They made a noticeable improvement in sound quality, with my music having a bit more punch, clarity, and a slightly broadened/deepened soundstage.
   
  As a note to anyone thinking of switching DAC chips on a Mdht Labs Havana DAC: It is easy to remove the old chips, but it can be a real pain to get the new chips back in the socket. Get one row of pins started, and then use a jeweller's small flat screwdriver to coax the 2nd row of pins into place. I rate this as being better than a tube upgrade, and in my case, it was less expensive too!


----------



## Dynobot

Believe it or not, you can get the same experience with Burr Brown PCM56PK-K chips NOT made in Japan. In fact besides the chips meeting spec no other matching needs to be done, they all are within close enough tolerance that further matching is pointless.


----------



## realmassy

Just want to share the experience I had with my Havana yesterday.
  I own this DAC for almost a year now, I've been very happy with it, I only upgraded the tube and the fuse, and I've always been plugging it in my PS Audio Duet.
   
  Yesterday I moved the rack and plugged it into the wall: what a difference! I couldn't believe my ears! Biggest improvement is the stage definition, deeper, much deeper and on focus. How is that possible? The PS Audio Duet has always been a good device, transparent, and actually it made a good difference on my WA3


----------



## Dynobot

How satisfied are you with your Havana on a scale from 0-10, 10 being the highest.
   
  I had one some time ago but after listening to my friends with the K version chips inside I get the urge to try one again.
   
  Something about the NOS sound that is very pleasing to the ear.
   
   
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Just want to share the experience I had with my Havana yesterday.
> I own this DAC for almost a year now, I've been very happy with it, I only upgraded the tube and the fuse, and I've always been plugging it in my PS Audio Duet.
> 
> Yesterday I moved the rack and plugged it into the wall: what a difference! I couldn't believe my ears! Biggest improvement is the stage definition, deeper, much deeper and on focus. How is that possible? The PS Audio Duet has always been a good device, transparent, and actually it made a good difference on my WA3


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> How satisfied are you with your Havana on a scale from 0-10, 10 being the highest.
> 
> I had one some time ago but after listening to my friends with the K version chips inside I get the urge to try one again.
> 
> Something about the NOS sound that is very pleasing to the ear.


 

 Good question: I think 8.
  I have no urge to upgrade, and that's a good point, even tough I'd like to have a dac with balanced output to use with my next Stax amp and I'd like to listen to some hi-res music.
  The Havana'd appear to work extremely well with my current Stax system (a simple 2050), I think I like it more now than with my WA3 + HD650/DT880.
   
  I have only praise for the timbre accuracy, it's simply better than the other DACs I heard in the past (DacMagic, V-DAC, Little Dot, Audio-GD Ref.5, Valab). The stage is a bit flat though, and not extremely wide. With the wrong tube dynamics are also a bit soft and it can sound dull.
  The JJ 6386 has been my preferred choice for the last 3 months: the Bendix is very good but a bit too tubey if you see what I mean.
   
  Personally, stage width is less important than timbre accuracy and dynamics, as long as instruments are on-focus, with a full body and easy to pinpoint. Depth is a different story, I like when orchestra is clearly well behind the soloists or the chorus.
  And this is the reason I give the Havana an 8, the stage is not particularly deep, at least with my setup.


----------



## Dynobot

That says it all, esp over time.  I think our ears will never lie to us, no matter what the cost of the Dac or measurements if something is missing we will be uneasy until it is fixed.
   
  Usually this ends up with upgrading or constant tweaking.
   
  Thank you for the reply.
   

  
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I have no urge to upgrade


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> That says it all, esp over time.  I think our ears will never lie to us, no matter what the cost of the Dac or measurements if something is missing we will be uneasy until it is fixed.
> 
> Usually this ends up with upgrading or constant tweaking.
> 
> Thank you for the reply.


 

 You're welcome!
  That tube is enough for me as a tweak. I mean, if I want to try something different I play with one of my 3 tubes for a week, and this gives me a different perspective of the music. As you know the Havana is pretty sensitive to the transport, and the Halide I own works pretty well, BUT  even the adaptive USB from a well configured MPD server (you know what I'm talking about!) gives a very good sound. And so does the Onkyo dock with upgraded PSU.


----------



## Dynobot

I see, you are using some good sources!
   
  Sounds great, enjoy the music!! 
   
   
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> You're welcome!
> That tube is enough for me as a tweak. I mean, if I want to try something different I play with one of my 3 tubes for a week, and this gives me a different perspective of the music. As you know the Havana is pretty sensitive to the transport, and the Halide I own works pretty well, BUT  even the adaptive USB from a well configured MPD server (you know what I'm talking about!) gives a very good sound. And so does the Onkyo dock with upgraded PSU.


----------



## robeeert1

Realmassy,
   
  You have no idea what you are missing without good K grade chips, especially in classics.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Realmassy,
> 
> You have no idea what you are missing without good K grade chips, especially in classics.


 


  I know Robert, but I have absolutely no DIY skills to do that job, and ask a professional to do it is too expensive. At that point I'd rather getting the balanced version of the Havana.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I know Robert, but I have absolutely no DIY skills to do that job, and ask a professional to do it is too expensive. At that point I'd rather getting the balanced version of the Havana.


 

  
  I have  thought about the balanced Havana myself, but upgrading it will be more expensive (two tubes, 4 X PCM56P, 4 x output capacitors etc....), but for stax flagship amp. (I'm convinced you'll have this one in the future) it should be a better DAC.


----------



## realmassy

I'll keep my SE Havana with the 323S + 507. If I'll ever upgrade the amp to a 600ltd then I'll go for a balanced Havana.
  If I have to spend more than $200 to upgrade my Havana, then I'd rather selling it and get the balanced version 
   
  BTW, A few weeks ago I promised you some impression on the Stax system, I'll shoot you a PM tonight!


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> How satisfied are you with your Havana on a scale from 0-10, 10 being the highest.
> 
> I had one some time ago but after listening to my friends with the K version chips inside I get the urge to try one again.
> 
> Something about the NOS sound that is very pleasing to the ear.


 


 I find this Havana DAC to be quite satisfying once you get a better tube in it. Rate it an 8 out of 10 that way. Having said that, replacing the J spec chipsets with a K spec chip added at least another .5 to the mix. I am getting the output capacitors upgraded to a set of V Cap OIMPs in about a month.That should address the slightly flat depth of soundstage issue, which is the only real negative I have found with this DAC (and tends to show up mostly with poorer recordings). There are other NOS DACs on the market, but I expect to keep this unit around for quite a while.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I find this Havana DAC to be quite satisfying once you get a better tube in it. Rate it an 8 out of 10 that way. Having said that, replacing the J spec chipsets with a K spec chip added at least another .5 to the mix. I am getting the output capacitors upgraded to a set of V Cap OIMPs in about a month.That should address the slightly flat depth of soundstage issue, which is the only real negative I have found with this DAC (and tends to show up mostly with poorer recordings). There are other NOS DACs on the market, but I expect to keep this unit around for quite a while.


 

 Glad you guys are enjoying the Havana.
   
  I have to admit, the K chip sounds great, in fact its making me want to buy the Havana again.  Even though the last thing I need is another dac....


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> That should address the slightly flat depth of soundstage issue, which is the only real negative I have found with this DAC (and tends to show up mostly with poorer recordings). There are other NOS DACs on the market, but I expect to keep this unit around for quite a while.


 


  It's always nice when subjective opinions are shared with other people! 
  Speaking of NOS dacs, I've been tempted by the Metrum Octave, but there are few reviews out there and my concern it could be just a FOTM.


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> It's always nice when subjective opinions are shared with other people!
> Speaking of NOS dacs, I've been tempted by the Metrum Octave, but there are few reviews out there and my concern it could be just a FOTM.


 

 It is easy to be tempted by new NOS designs, and the Metrum Octave sounds impressive, but this thread is a testament to the fact that the Mdht Labs Havana DAC does a very good job for the price, and can be made even better with a few simple upgrades. DACs based on the R2R architecture don't like jitter, so adding something like a JKenny HiFace Mk3 or a Audiophilleo 2 before the Havana DAC should really help elevate its performance.  The Metrum Octave is a case in point: it is an NOS DAC based on the R2R design, and it's performance appears to be substantially improved by adding a good low jitter asynchronous USB to SPDIF convertor.
   
  If I didn't already own a really decent NOS DAC, something like the Metrum Octave would be tempting. But it may well be a "flavor of the month" thing, with much of the hype being generated by how well it responds with a good asynch USB to SPDIF convertor. I suspect once you get to the performance level of a Mdht Labs Havana DAC or a Metrum Octave DAC, it is the added benefit of a low jitter asynchronous USB signal that makes the biggest difference.
   
  I will test that theory in a few weeks. I am going in for some stomach surgery in mid September, and once I am home recuperating, I will order up a Audiophilleo 2 convertor for myself. Once I have had it in my system for a while, I will post on how it changed my systems sound.


----------



## realmassy

Good luck with the surgery, looking forward to your impressions.
  When I got the Halide Bridge I also thought about the ART Legato, which should be a very very good usb to spdif converter....but it's limited to 16/44.  There's a new ART Veloce going to be released soon, and that will go up 24/96.


----------



## LjF

I'm looking for suggestions for a dac that would be an upgrade to a Havana -- I could go as high as 3k.
   
  It looks like people in this thread are very happy with the Havana. I also love mine, BUT... I need an additional dac for another system. I suppose I could just get another Havana, but surely there are other interesting DACs out there. I have the chance to upgrade, and I'd like to take it.
   
  Any suggestions?


----------



## loserica

Hi,
  I replaced the stock chips with PCM56P "K" grade. They are made in Korea, not japanese, but I think thay are "BB" original.
  First, I want to say that it was very fair what has been reportet on the forum. The changed in terms of rezolution, better transparency, deeper and powerfull low frequents, better instruments separation, focus and stage present, are all affected by chip upgrade. The changed is critical, so the stock chips replacement is justified and very welcome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Second, I want to mention what kind of changes I realized in Havana (and major importance):
  1. Change stock chips with Burr-Brown PCM56P "K" grade,
  2. Change the tube with Western Electric (JW) 396A tube
  3. Replace stock output capacitors with V-Cap OIMP
  4. Replace connectors with WBT "Pure silver" (RCA) high-quality connectors
  5. Modded Hiface (M2Tech) transport with two rechargeable batteries, with separate power to usb interface and oscilator, for lower jitter.
  6. Source! that is very important in my opinion. Currently I use the "Pure Music" player, which is installed on Apple iMac computer (Snow Leopard SO). I listened as well other players as Amarra, Audacity, Audirvana, but it seems that i like "Pure Music" some more.
   
  They are of course other changes as fuse, "Hi-Fi tuning fuse", EAT-Cool tube dumper, diodes, damping materials and isolation feet, but they are less critical. I have not change until now the film and the electrolytic capacitors, although I think the replacement will be less important compared with those mentioned. I think that Rubycon Blackgate or Silmic II Elna are better compared with Nichicon capacitors, but Blackgate capacitors are not cheap.
   
  I am very, very glad that I realized these upgrade's in Havana, first for better sound quality. In term of classical music or jazz&blues, Havana sounds lovely with STAX headphones. Is something You play much emotion and refinement. Music listening is very pleasant and relaxed, with a clear feeling of extinction of the ear headphones! What remains is the privacy of the artist and instruments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Thank's and we wish pleasant listening.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Where can I get a couple K grade chips? I managed to find a couple J grade very cheap and replaced the stock L grade ones. Even that was a very nice upgrade. Tightened everything up, more solid image, quite noticeable. I would assume the J grade would bring it along a little more.
   
  Love this dac.


----------



## robeeert1

Stephen,
  Try to find "K" grade, (Korean or Japanese), you will find further sound improvement.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

I will still be looking for a pair. I don't know if the ones they have at Mouser Electronics (PCM56P-K) are the correct ones or not. I have also seen the list of old cd players that use this chip but those older machines seem to be just a tough to locate.
   
  Anyway, I will keep looking. I think the upgrade is well worth the effort.


----------



## Dynobot

Yes the ones at Mouser are correct.  It does not matter where they were made....a Burr Brown plant in the US operates to the same specs as a BB plant in China, Japan or anywhere else.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Yes the ones at Mouser are correct.  It does not matter where they were made....a Burr Brown plant in the US operates to the same specs as a BB plant in China, Japan or anywhere else.


 


  Did you check these chips personally or you base your opinion on specs of BB?  Japanese "K", Korean "K" and Malaysian "K" sound different !!


----------



## Dynobot

Well I have a few Malaysian chips right now, my friend uses Japanese chips in his Dac and tried the Malaysian chips.  There was no difference in sound.  I recently purchased a Havana and will be using the M chips, I will post a pic by Monday.
   
  So I can say I heard the Japanese and the Malasysian chips personally.
   
  You can do what ever you want....


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Well I have a few Malaysian chips right now, my friend uses Japanese chips in his Dac and tried the Malaysian chips.  There was no difference in sound.  I recently purchased a Havana and will be using the M chips, I will post a pic by Monday.
> 
> So I can say I heard the Japanese and the Malasysian chips personally.
> 
> You can do what ever you want....


 
   
  I'm not going to argue about it. I can easily hear the difference between them in my system.


----------



## Dynobot

okay I respect your opinion.


----------



## Dynobot

Interesting Factoid from the Horses Mouth ie Texas Instruments concerning the PCM56P chip made at various locations.  I suspect looking at the word Japan ads to the music experience.
   
*Hi Ed,*
*Welcome to the forum!  The PCM56, regardless of the assembly site, should meet all performance specifications based on the grade.  All of the test sites use the same criteria and setups for testing the end product so it should not matter where the device came from. *

* *​ *Regards,*​ *Tom*​


----------



## robeeert1

Ears are the best tester.


----------



## Dynobot

Yes the human senses are wonderful....great for testing Wine for example.
   
  To each his/her own, no worries.
   
  On another note, has anyone tried to Piggy-back the PCM56 chips?  I understand its do-able.


----------



## Dynobot

FYI, I put a request in at Texas Instruments to look into the chips from ebay [shown as PCM56PK] in the pic.  If you notice they are the only chips that have a K right after the P >and< also show a J grade on the chip.  This baffled the TI rep as he first thought it was a K grade chip. If you notice in the spec sheet this type of nomenclature is not used on any chip. At any rate the lot trace code on the chip will tell all eventually. As we all know, counterfeit Chinese products are nothing new. Compare the chips size to any other PCM56 chip and you will see they are also slightly smaller.
   
  I got an email back from TI.
   
  [size=12.0pt]Hello Ed,[/size]
  [size=12.0pt] [/size]
  [size=12.0pt]Your request for verification of the PCM56PK devices has been forwarded to the TI Anti-Counterfeit Team.[/size]
  [size=12.0pt]...................... [/size]
  [size=12.0pt]TI strongly encourages you to purchase all your TI parts either directly from TI or from authorized TI distributors (http://focus.ti.com/docs/general/distribcountryresults.jhtml) and not from the gray market or brokers.[/size]
  [size=12.0pt] [/size]
  [size=12.0pt]Thanks and regards,[/size]
  [size=18.0pt]XXXXXXXX[/size]
  [size=12.0pt]QA Facilitator[/size]
  [size=12.0pt]Quality Assurance[/size]
  [size=12.0pt]Texas Instruments [/size]
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I've  received the DACs today. The difference is fundamental at least in classics.
> It's very hard to describe the sonic differences between the DACS because everything changed. It's not the same like changing cables or tubes,
> you can easily hear that different DACs (parts of the Havana) are creating the sound.
> The timbre and resolution are better.
> ...


----------



## Dynobot

Also put a request in at Piltron for a Transformer.  Unfortunately that would be a no-go....
   
  I got the transformer specs directly from Mdht.
   
   
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  [size=x-small]Hello Ed,[/size]
  [size=x-small]We do not have a standard available that meets your specifications.[/size]
  [size=x-small]Thanks[/size]
  [size=x-small] [/size]
  [size=x-small] [/size]
  [size=x-small]Regards[/size]
XXXXXXX
  [size=x-small]Plitron Manufacturing Inc[/size]
  [size=x-small] [/size]
   ----------------------- *Original Message* -----------------------
*Cc:*
*Date:* Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: Fw: Havana Dac*
    

  Hi do you have a toroidal transformer that meets these specs?
   
*I/P:0-115V 0-115V  50/60Hz*
*O/P:15V-0-15V  0.3A (-15A -- 0 0.3A, 0 -- +15V 0.3A)*
*    8V-0-8V  0.8A (-8V -- 0 0.8A, 0  -- +8A 0.8A)

 Thank You
 Ed*


----------



## robeeert1

Donobot, you're so smart, that's unbelievable, ask TI about these.


----------



## Dynobot

Well robeert this is kind of a moot subject as I already have the chips I want in my Havana and have moved on to finding a transformer.  Caps already on the way and should be in place by late next week.
   
  I have 3 sets of verified chips along with some AD chips on the way for comparison.
   
  I will post my comparison of this Dac against the Audio-gd Ref 7 and Ref 5 soon.
   
  Cheers!!!


----------



## robeeert1

Dynobot,
  I have also upgraded my DAC, replaced caps, some resistors, diodes, chips, tube, I'm also interested in transformer, Let me know if you find something matching. thanks.


----------



## jjinh

Havent been in this thread for a while.
   
  Havent read about changing to the 'K' chips before. I suppose I'll have to give it a go sometime in the future!
   
  So from reading above, is Mouser the best and most reliable place to get these things??


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Dynobot,
> I have also upgraded my DAC, replaced caps, some resistors, diodes, chips, tube, I'm also interested in transformer, Let me know if you find something matching. thanks.


 

 Will do!!
   
  Sometimes if you buy more they will give a discount.
   
  The Havana transformer is not a standard transformer which makes it difficult.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Good luck with the surgery, looking forward to your impressions.
> When I got the Halide Bridge I also thought about the ART Legato, which should be a very very good usb to spdif converter....but it's limited to 16/44.  There's a new ART Veloce going to be released soon, and that will go up 24/96.


 

 I test Havana with ART Legato these days. Probably I am not yet ready to characterize Legato sound becouse is somewhat early. But, I can say some things: first, needs about an hour to warm (sounds a little better after).
  I did not find major (critical!) differences between Legato and modded Hiface on my setup (Havana>>eXStatA>> STAX SR404LE), but still there are some: lower frequencies have become less deeper, there is a slight improvement in space between instruments, something more airy. Audition is slightly relaxing. The resolution is also slightly deeper; stage presence, focus a little better, more refined texture from Hiface. Legato is certainly a good transport for Havana and this result directly on the sound quality. But again, not something critical...
  Considering Legato' s price, I don't know is justified the jump from Hiface (this is also a subjective aspect). The modded Hiface sounds already good, but Legato is better. These small and refined differences matter! In recent years I made some changes to approach the sound of "my dreams", but now aware it is verry dificult when you have a limited budget. Without upset someone, I think that the weak link in my setup might be even the analog to digital converter. I could be wrong, but Havana is a good converter in its price category and not comparable with players or converters several times more expensive. From the standard price I upgraded components in Havana about five hundred dollars. Deserved? Definitely Yes! It's time to calm down..


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
  Havana is a very difficult DAC to upgrade, it has some constructional errors(for example, try to remove C5 cap - you'll see what happens), I'm ending upgrading my Havana tomorrow,
  The sound is two class higher. I really love the DAC now.


----------



## Dynobot

Robeert
   
  I'm thinking about an R-Core transformer....possibly two in a separate enclosure.
   
  Any ideas??


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> Havana is a very difficult DAC to upgrade, it has some constructional errors(for example, try to remove C5 cap - you'll see what happens), I'm ending upgrading my Havana tomorrow,
> The sound is two class higher. I really love the DAC now.


 
  Ok, Robeert. I am very curious the changes! I don't know what can make Havana to become a better class (except changes with connectors, capacitors, chips, resistors, tube, fuse, etc, etc...) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  My question is: how can Havana to overcome its class, with relatively "small" changes. When I say that I spent about five hundred dollars with up-grade components, without being necessarily a targhet, I would say it was even cheaper, compared to more quality!! Fuse change is clearly a fad.
  LEGATO may brings a touch of superior musicality, but it's not a touch of class. It is a sound "dressing" of course toward better, but it's not the jumping in another class..


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Fuse change is clearly a fad.


 


  I agree, which is why I always bypass the fuses.  X amount of current being forced through a piece of wire as this as a hair [in some cases] is a serious bottle-neck.
   
  Besides during standard operation how many times has anyone blown a fuse in their Havana....


----------



## robeeert1

Dynobot, I suppose we have to think about two separate transformers, I'll look around tomorrow,
  My newly upgraded toy:
  .


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Dynobot, I suppose we have to think about two separate transformers, I'll look around tomorrow,
> My newly upgraded toy:
> .


 


  SWEET!!!!!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Ok, Robeert. I am very curious the changes! I don't know what can make Havana to become a better class (except changes with connectors, capacitors, chips, resistors, tube, fuse, etc, etc...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Upgrading only DAC will not give you the highest quality sound, check the rest of the system, cables etc...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Upgrading only DAC will not give you the highest quality sound, check the rest of the system, cables etc...


 

 As I deepen in auditions and get used with sound of LEGATO, I think it is an ideal transport for Havana! Otherwise, the converter gain exactly where needed. The sound has improved the texture and resolution. Like I said, instruments have a settlement not only in length, but deep, and the effect from Hiface is substantially the level of perception the listener! A high relaxation and musicality, in other words I feel me more in "the middle" of listening, is something intimate and pleasant. With Hiface everything is like artificial light, without crittical differences, but immediately obvious. In audio you pay something for these differences, and if you look strictly in terms of quality, deserve. LEGATO is really good! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Now, if we turn the other components (the rest of system...), can you confirm that are good. So I allowed to say that might as Havana to be the vulnerable component of my rig. But finnaly, Havana does its job and do even charming on electrostatic headphone system. Sounds lovely on classical and jazz music.


----------



## Dynobot

Okay I finally got my V-caps today, it took about 2 minutes to install them. 
   
  Impressions:
   
  Stock Havana was very good and slightly on the dark side with of course nice black backgrounds with somewhat under extended vocals [not exactly airy] but still very good.
   
  Installed the K grade chips, the clarity in the mids and air became evident, bass seemed a bit tighter and lower/fuller than my Audiogd Ref 7...possibly due to the tubes in the Havana.
   
  Installed the V-caps and yet another major leap in every aspect.  All that was good and great before became perfection...and the caps are not even broken in yet.  Mids are just outstanding, bass is very tuneful and the highs shimmer with perfect air.  The Ref 7 has all the same attributes but seems much more stiff in comparison with not nearly as much swing as the Havana.  Two totally different sounding Dacs.
   
  Next I am going to replace the remaining yellow caps with Cardas and replace the fuse...still looking for a suitable power supply, most likely dual R-core outboard.


----------



## Dynobot

Hello all,
   
  Don't mean to ruffle any feathers or cause problems BUT from the photos I have seen here of people who have replaced their caps....it looks like the caps are in backwards!
   
  According to the V-cap instructions the flow of power should run in the same direction as the writing on the cap ie the same direction as the original caps are going..that would be towards the rca outputs.
   
  Any thoughts?


----------



## robeeert1

Dynobot, I did not notice any differences between directions, I installed Vcaps and mundorfs. I like the Mundorfs much better - elegance and beauty.
  I did not like vcaps, sold them.
  Archive photo


----------



## Dynobot

Okay great!
   
  Thanks for the info!!!
   
  Mundorfs.....Hmmmmm, you know you are feeding this addiction right...thanks!
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Dynobot, I did not notice any differences between directions, I installed Vcaps and mundorfs. I like the Mundorfs much better - elegance and beauty.
> I did not like vcaps, sold them.
> Archive photo


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Dynobot, I did not notice any differences between directions, I installed Vcaps and mundorfs. I like the Mundorfs much better - elegance and beauty.
> I did not like vcaps, sold them.


 
   
  Come on, Robeeert! Not remove man pleasure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  V Cap OIMP may sound very elegant! I think that deserves patience with running V-Cap capacitors. Now the problem is pure subjective.
   
  @ Dynobot, You can be quiet with V-Cap capacitors. They are good and differences from other are "shades". I don't contradict Robeeert, only try to realize that sometimes we lose in detail and forget the essential: the music and her beautiful experience. On the other hand I don't think that changing films capacitors, you get a critical change in sound. But this is my purely personal opinion and I don't want to influence you. Enjoy the new sound and breathe deeply.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Enjoy the new sound and breathe deeply.


 

 Yes I do enjoy the sound...lucky for me I don't let numbers or opinions stand in the way of good sound.
   
  I too spent the time to de-solder and re-solder the V-caps and there was no difference in sound that I could hear.  I left them in their final configuration which is actually opposite of what I think should be the way they are supposed to be installed. 
   
  Anyways next up is the other yellow caps and the power supply...


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
   
  The Mundorfs silver/gold 2,2uF are extremely nice. They have the same details and resolution like Vcaps, but they are refined and tasty. I absolutely love their timbre and quality. Vcaps are definitely better than stock ones.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> 
> The Mundorfs silver/gold 2,2uF are extremely nice. They have the same details and resolution like Vcaps, but they are refined and tasty. I absolutely love their timbre and quality. Vcaps are definitely better than stock ones.


 


  Now who would not like "tasty" caps???
   
  I must try these tasty caps!!!!
   
  After I try the other stuff...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Anyways next up is the other yellow caps and the power supply...


 


  When you are upgrading power supply, try to remove C5 cap, and check the sound. (you should hear noticeable improvement)
  Good appetite.
  Cheers


----------



## Dynobot

Ok will have to try that too esp when I get some replacements for those power supply caps.
   
  FYI I bypassed the fuse with a nice improvement....I always bypass fusses only because the only reason they are their is because of regulations, not because they actually blow....anyone ever replace a blown fuse?????


----------



## robeeert1

I also bypassed the fuse. Removing C5 you'll hear five times more effect. There is a fuse because of security reasons.


----------



## robeeert1

and remove also  C25, this cap is bypassing the output caps, there is no need it be there, remember "the best capacitor is no capacitor"


----------



## robeeert1

Does anyone have a schematic of the Havana?


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Does anyone have a schematic of the Havana?


 


  I will work at getting the schematic.


----------



## LionelH2

Where is it located physically?
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> When you are upgrading power supply, try to remove C5 cap, and check the sound. (you should hear noticeable improvement)
> Good appetite.
> Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Where is it located physically?


 
  I used the photo taken by Loserica


----------



## Dynobot

That is a different Havana than the one I have....different caps etc.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> That is a different Havana than the one I have....different caps etc.


 


  C5,C25 are 0,1uF 250V, they are white or yellow.
  Dynobot, different HAVANA?


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> C5,C25 are 0,1uF 250V, they are white or yellow.
> Dynobot, different HAVANA?


 
  Looks like this one....maybe this is the old version!


----------



## LionelH2

Thank you very much for the photo.  Can you describe the improvement you noted after removing these two caps?

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I used the photo taken by Loserica


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Thank you very much for the photo.  Can you describe the improvement you noted after removing these two caps?


 
  I removed them in the middle of upgrading the DAC, many components were replaced then, after removing them (especially C5) you should hear definitely brighter and more detailed sound. This move is very welcome when you replace caps in the digital section with BG non-polar. (BG N are a little dry sounding)
  The foil caps used in power supply are not needed !! They only "spoil" the music.


----------



## robeeert1

replaced components:


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> @ Dynobot, You can be quiet with V-Cap capacitors. They are good and differences from other are "shades".


 

 It is not "shade" difference. Believe me.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> replaced components:


 


   
  Robeert what value cap did you replace the .01uf/1k caps with??  Its hard to find exact value replacements.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Robeert what value cap did you replace the .01uf/1k caps with??  Its hard to find exact value replacements.


 


  I replaced them with http://www.ebay.com/itm/200606563148?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  One of the best silver mica caps you can find. The voltage is not important.
   
  The most important change is when you replace C12 with silver mica 0,01uF.


----------



## Dynobot

Okay great, I will probably replace C12 with a Silver Mica.....
   
  But the others...I want to try to stick as close as possible to the original values.  I am going to try the Mundorf's for the remaining yellow caps, I found some really close to the same value.
   
  I also found a couple of power supplies that might be able to be used.  Waiting for word back from the manufacturer.


----------



## Dynobot

This is a great Dac to mod, very easy to get to everything.
   
  However before I get carried away in a world-wind of solder smoke I want to get it straight in my head exactly what my goals are in terms of a final sound.  For me, I want to tighten up the bass, open up the vocals and extend the highs to become a bit more airy.  The stock Havana has a true thick tube flavor with the classic NOS sound, even with the new chips and caps its still there which is great.  Its hard to compare the Havana to my Audiogd Dacs because the sound is just so different and both Dacs are of different designs....not apples-to-apples. I think after I replace the remaining 3 yellow caps and ad the Silver Mica I will be done.


----------



## robeeert1

Upgrading the Havana is not simple. To achieve maximum sound quality you have to replace several caps the same values but different
  manufacturer always checking the sound. Several different tubes, chips. Do not replace all at one move. Everything must match, tube, caps, chips, otherwise the sound may be worse than before upgrade. I was checking sevaral manufacturers products to choose the right ones to achieve the sound I love. Now the Havana is a hi-end DAC.
  It's very helpful to have another DAC for comparison
   
  Good Luck.


----------



## Dynobot

So what are people feeding their Havana [usb, coax, or toslink] any preference?
   
  I was going to get a V-link since I heard good things about it and its asynch.  Maybe thats the only thing missing from Mhdt Dacs is a upgraded usb input, seems like everyone is adding Asynch to their Dacs now.  Hmmmmmm I wonder.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Upgrading the Havana is not simple. To achieve maximum sound quality you have to replace several caps the same values but different
> manufacturer always checking the sound. Several different tubes, chips. Do not replace all at one move. Everything must match, tube, caps, chips, otherwise the sound may be worse than before upgrade. I was checking sevaral manufacturers products to choose the right ones to achieve the sound I love. Now the Havana is a hi-end DAC.
> It's very helpful to have another DAC for comparison
> 
> Good Luck.


 


  Of course, achieving the right synergistic affect is never easy, its time consuming for one thing and can be a lot of hit and miss.  But its fun....


----------



## robeeert1

First step upgrade is tube, chips, C12 cap and output caps. The Havana sounds extremely nice then. Further upgrades are for demanding people who are looking for authenticity, best sound reproduction.


----------



## Dynobot

Thanks for the info Robeert, I am also getting a lot of good information from Mdht about the caps / chips etc.
   
  btw, you are right about c5 and c25, but apparently there is a cap next to c5 that can be changed to a higher value to get better bass response...original value of 47uf but can be changed to 100uf or more for better bass.  I also learned a lot about the PCM56P chips floating around as well as the newer production TI PCM56P chips.  I even saw the future of the Havana


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Thanks for the info Robeert, I am also getting a lot of good information from Mdht about the caps / chips etc.
> 
> btw, you are right about c5 and c25, but apparently there is a cap next to c5 that can be changed to a higher value to get better bass response...original value of 47uf but can be changed to 100uf or more for better bass.  I also learned a lot about the PCM56P chips floating around as well as the newer production TI PCM56P chips.  I even saw the future of the Havana


 


  I experienced with that cap next to C5, the best result I obtained with Black Gate 47uF FK series.
  But thanks for the info, I'll try once again with that cap.
   
  Sometimes only one cap can change so much that we cannot believe it.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I replaced them with http://www.ebay.com/itm/200606563148?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> 
> One of the best silver mica caps you can find. The voltage is not important.
> 
> The most important change is when you replace C12 with silver mica 0,01uF.


 


  These Mica's are .01uF or 10000pF.
   
  According to Mdht the value for C12 should be 1000p or .001uF
   
  Conversion chart
  http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html


----------



## robeeert1

I know the conversion, replace c12 with Russian silver mica 0,01uF, it is one of the key replacement of this dac


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I know the conversion, replace c12 with russion silver mica 0,01uF, it is one of the key replacement of this dac


 


  I am saying that according to Mdht it should be 0.001uF not 0.01uF
   
  They told me to use 1000p [which would be .001uF]


----------



## Dynobot

The .01uF Mica's are taller than the .001uF Mica's...the Havana uses the shorter .001uF Mica's
   
  .01uF Mica

   
   
   
  .001uF mica


----------



## robeeert1

I bet you'll never come back to 1000p there


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> The .01uF Mica's are taller than the .001uF Mica's...the Havana uses the shorter .001uF Mica's


 

  
  I see mhdt uses silver mica in their Havana's balanced version, hmmmm well...   )))))))))) and uses higher grade "J" chips.


----------



## robeeert1

better purchase both, they are not expensive and compare by yourself, I ensure you nothing will happen with Havana when using 0,01uF.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> better purchase both, they are not expensive and compare by yourself, I ensure you nothing will happen with Havana when using 0,01uF.


 


  I believe you, because you are already using them with great success...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyways, yes I went ahead and bought both kinds, I will put the .01uF in the back in place of the 0.1uF/1K caps and a .001uF in the C12 spot.
   
  Also I think you have the best PCM56P chips, as Mdht agrees that the older ones from Japan were the best.  They said that the newer TI versions are just not the same....as far as grading goes.  And stay away from the Chinese PCM56PK chips, they are sub grade junk.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Also I think you have the best PCM56P chips, as Mdht agrees that the older ones from Japan were the best.  They said that the newer TI versions are just not the same....as far as grading goes.  And stay away from the Chinese PCM56PK chips, they are sub grade junk.


 

 I know, ears are the best tester and judge.


----------



## Dynobot

Robeert
   
  What about this power supply, possible two in a enclosure.
   
 PSU 20115  Linear, 115V / 240V 60 / 50Hz a.c. input, 15V / 300mA d.c. regulated output 
 
 115/240V a.c. Input
 15V/300mA d.c. Output
 Encapsulated Transformer
 Low Profile
 Screw Terminal Connection
 








  The PSU 20115 is a linear power supply with 115V / 240V @ 60 / 50Hz a.c. input and a regulated 15V / 300mA d.c. output. The unit is low profile and features an encapsulated mains transformer and screw terminal connections. The design includes over-current and over-temperature protection. This is a popular part, normally stocked in high quantity and suitable for new designs.
   
   
   
   
   
  http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=128


----------



## dura

As an ex Havana owner I'm deeply impressed with all the mods here; powercord, fuse, caps, tubes, chips, and now the powersupply.
  But why buy a Havana anyway, if almost everything goes out? And is the original that bad?
  (personally I loved the tonality but found the soundstage on my speakerbased system lacking in width and depth, more so then any other digital device I ever had in my system).


----------



## Dynobot

I used to own a Havana too, it was the mod-ability that made me buy another.
   
  Glad I did.
   
  I bought it for the purpose to mod.


----------



## Dynobot

Ok I found some "Original" Japanese K-grade chips directly from my source in Japan.  I should be getting them in a week or so....


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


dura said:


> As an ex Havana owner I'm deeply impressed with all the mods here; powercord, fuse, caps, tubes, chips, and now the powersupply.
> But why buy a Havana anyway, if almost everything goes out? And is the original that bad?
> (personally I loved the tonality but found the soundstage on my speakerbased system lacking in width and depth, more so then any other digital device I ever had in my system).


 


  Yes. The stock Havana is awesome. I'm digging mine just as much as I was a couple/few years back when I first got it.
   
  That said ... I totally dig reading about all the mods and hope folks keep pushing the envelope. I'm sure the changes make a notable difference but I lack the skills to do it myself (and too lazy to get off my arse and learn) ...
   
  Had I the skills, however? I would certainly buy it to mod it cause it's sort of ready-made for modding.
   
  Great DAC though. I have no desire to upgrade (or money) ... LOL.


----------



## robeeert1

Dynobot, Havana needs  2x15V and 2x9V, toroids are good enough.
   
  To upgrade it professionally we would have to separate digital and analogue section.
  The schematic would be very welcome.


----------



## Dynobot

I did not look to verify but these are the numbers Mdht gave to me for a transformer.
  
 Transformer A
 I/P:0-120V 50/60Hz
 O/P:15V-0-15V  0.3A

Transformer B
 IP:0-120V 50/60Hz
O/P: 8V-0-8V  0.8A
   
  I sent a email to Piltron so see if they had two that could fit the bill.  I don't think Mdht will hand over the schematic but they have been giving me any information I ask for via email.  I will try not to push his patience with a lot of questions, but he has been very kind so far...he knows my intentions are to mod the Havana. He even recommended that I try the Silver Mica, which is a good sign.
   
  I think some level of extra regulation between the new transformers and the Havana board would help.


----------



## loserica

dura said:


> As an ex Havana owner I'm deeply impressed with all the mods here; powercord, fuse, caps, tubes, chips, and now the powersupply.
> But why buy a Havana anyway, if almost everything goes out? And is the original that bad?
> (personally I loved the tonality but found the soundstage on my speakerbased system lacking in width and depth, more so then any other digital device I ever had in my system).




Havana unchanged and Havana modified are different dacs, undoubtedly! The changes mentioned above are very important to up Havana in a higher class. I know what I mean, becouse I made changes step by step: first I changed the tube, tube damper; followed the output capacitors, rca-connectors, the chips, etc. BUT, it's not enough. If couple Havana to a "SPDIF" integrated sound board output, or a sound card output, the rezult is unsatisfactory. If you buy a Hiface interface, is much better. With a Hiface modded, everything comes to life... 
But, with ART LEGATO, all is rise to a higher playback (refinement)! I think that this transport remove everything that can play Havana. Indeed, many are concerned to make changes inside the converter, but treat superficial what kind of digital signal get into it. Havana has a weak immune to jitter!! LEGATO is very good at this aspect: the soundstage is deeper and improved in width and depth (audio layering)! If we return to what we first said, the "stock" Havana would not be able such a. 

I neaver heard a more transparent sound playback in headphones as well as now with LEGATO. I tried something a few years ago with a "Solid-State" setup that I was in love at the time (Lavry DA10>Meier-Audio CORDA PREHEAD-I>AKG K701) :normal_smile :, again, I refer strictly to the transparency sound level in headphones. This setup, ART Legato>Havana>Alex Cavalli eXStatA>STAX SR404LE is higher in most areas and is now disappearing from the head headphones!, What is an extraordinary thing in headphone world...Is about emotion and the feeling listening. Just world instruments...
Here is obviously the Havana's contribution.

I can only thank those on the forum for suggestions.


----------



## loserica

Has anybody ideea where I could find the best BNC (digital input) connector for Havana? I want to replace the "stock-RCA" connector with BNC, becouse Legato is equipped with BNC output and cable connectors. I would be interested and if it was tested, compared with RCA conector. Theoretically it should be a superior solution.


----------



## Dynobot

VAMPIRE BNC PCB mount female jack- as above - 7/16"(11mm) dia. hole, includes gold plated lock washer and nut
   
  http://www.partsconnexion.com/vampire_56013.html


----------



## Dynobot

I think Piltron can do it!!!!!  Robeert what do you think????
   
*Requirements:*
  Transformer A
I/P:0-120V 50/60Hz
O/P:15V-0-15V  0.3A

 Transformer B
 IP:0-120V 50/60Hz
O/P: 8V-0-8V  0.8A
   
*Piltron Reply:*
   
  [size=x-small][size=x-small]Our closest to Transformer A is:[/size][/size]
  [size=x-small][size=x-small]007013201 - Input: 115VAC @ 50/60 Hz, Output: 15VAC-0-15VAC @ 0.5A[/size][/size]
  [size=x-small][size=x-small]Our closest to Transformer B are:[/size][/size]
  [size=x-small][size=x-small]007010201 - Input: 115VAC @ 50/60 Hz, Output: 6VAC-0-6VAC @ 1.25A[/size][/size]
  [size=x-small][size=x-small]007011201 - Input: 115VAC @ 50/60 Hz, Output: 9VAC-0-9VAC @ 0.83A[/size][/size]


----------



## robeeert1

dynobot said:


> I think Piltron can do it!!!!!  Robeert what do you think????
> 
> 
> *Piltron Reply:*
> ...



 
Sounds great, they are the closest, but it would be the best for sound if they were more powerful,
for example:
Transformer A:
Input 115VAC, output 15VAC-0-15VAC @ 5A
Transformer B:
Input 115VAC, output 9VAC-0-9VAC @ 5A
 
In my case input 230VAC
 
They will be much bigger than stock one, but you need separate chassis anyway.


----------



## robeeert1

Some engineers say the CD-player's powersupply should have 20 times more power than it needs. They are right, it works, you should hear further improvement. I'll mod transformers in Havana next month, will post my impressions.


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Dynobot, I did not notice any differences between directions, I installed Vcaps and mundorfs. I like the Mundorfs much better - elegance and beauty.
> I did not like vcaps, sold them.
> Archive photo


 


 I have been contemplating going with a set of V Cap OIMP 2.7 uF 250VDC caps with a set of small VCAP CuTF bridging capacitors (1-5% of the 2.7 uF value) as recommended on VCAP website. I wanted to get a bit of feedback from you about why you switched these VCAPs out?


----------



## s1rrah

This thread is boggling my brain! Keep it up, ya'll ... I love reading the mod details.  I'm actually starting to watch youtube soldering videos because of you freaks. LOL ...


----------



## kendrab

One of my next steps is to get a good USB ro SPDIF convertor, so I can feed a better signal to my Havana DAC. At this time, I am looking at an Audiophilleo 2, which is one of the best convertors on the market (although a bit expensive at $595 USD). Has anyone been using one of these with their Havana DAC, and if so, what has been your experience?


----------



## robeeert1

kendrab said:


> I have been contemplating going with a set of V Cap OIMP 2.7 uF 250VDC caps with a set of small VCAP CuTF bridging capacitors (1-5% of the 2.7 uF value) as recommended on VCAP website. I wanted to get a bit of feedback from you about why you switched these VCAPs out?




I switched them out because I did not like the timbre, they sound artificial to me, but they are more detailed than stock ones. The Mundorf silver/gold has the same detail, dramatically better timbre, richer presentation from top to bottom, poor quality recordings are more tasty. Vocals are superb sounding. Unfortunatelly they are very expensive, over 100 GBP for a pair.

quotation from another forum:

"I do not believe detail resolution is any less than VCaps, but a tiny bit more harmonic "bloom" over the notes makes music both sexier and less pellucid at the same time. Some people will absolutely love this quality and call Silver/Gold much "better" than VCaps while others will absolutely declare VCaps to be the better cap for the same reasons. To throw more wrench into the equation, the optimal tube set for one cap is NOT the best set for the other cap and vice versa. Such is life."


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Some engineers say the CD-player's powersupply should have 20 times more power than it needs. They are right, it works, you should hear further improvement. I'll mod transformers in Havana next month, will post my impressions.


 


  Okay great!
   
  By then I should have received my Mica caps and Japanese PCM56P-K chips have them in place. 
   
  I also have a balanced power supply coming next week, so we shall see what difference balanced power makes vs. unbalanced power.
   
  I also have some of those Russian 6N3P tubes coming.  Right now I like my Raytheons better than the Tung-Sol or RCA's that I have on hand.


----------



## loserica

kendrab said:


> One of my next steps is to get a good USB ro SPDIF convertor, so I can feed a better signal to my Havana DAC. At this time, I am looking at an Audiophilleo 2, which is one of the best convertors on the market (although a bit expensive at $595 USD). Has anyone been using one of these with their Havana DAC, and if so, what has been your experience?




Price of "ART Legato" is about all there. Havana breathe better now! After I will change into Havana the digital connector with BNC, I will make a few impressions. Currently I think, Legato is limited by the "bad" stock Havana connector, not to mention that I will get a high amplitude with this. Connector change was evident also on the output side, where "WBT" made law! Change in sound was evident. Havana needs a good transport, and there are superior solutions besides M2Tech Hiface: Halide Bridge, ART Legato, MHDT USBridge, Audiophilleo 2, etc. I can't and I doesn't intend to test them all


----------



## korzena

Guys, would you describe the sound of Havana more bright or dark?
I am considering buying this DAC for my Audio-Technica W5000 which is a bit hot in treble and I wonder if the DAC could tame the brightness a little bit.

(BRIGHT - a sound that emphasizes the upper midrange/lower treble. Harmonics are strong relative to fundamentals) 
(DARK - a tonal balance that tilts downwards with increasing frequency. Opposite of bright. Weak high frequencies.)


----------



## robeeert1

The stock Havana is rather dark sounding. If you like detailed and bright sound you'll have to upgrade. Three moves and the Havana is bright like a sun.


----------



## korzena

>The stock Havana is rather dark sounding. If you like detailed and bright sound you'll have to upgrade. Three moves and the Havana is bright like a sun.

Hi Robert,
Thanks for the quick reply. 
Funny as the very same moment I've sent you PM with this question on Polish forum - audiohobby.pl 
Could you tell me which tubes make it dark (and better quality than the stock one) and what other mods I could make to make it darker and better quality. 
I want the dark sound for my AT-W5000
Thanks,
Andrzej


----------



## korzena

And does Havana provide dense/thick/bodied sound or it's more light/airy/thin?


----------



## loserica

korzena said:


> And does Havana provide dense/thick/bodied sound or it's more light/airy/thin?




Havana is good enough in this chapter. I compared a year ago Havana with Lavry DA10, Havana was not modified, except the tube. Lavry was thinner in sound, and Havana has provided better texture, harmonic and musicality (bodied sound!) On the other hand, I don't thing that upgrades provide light/thin sound. I use for example WE 396A tube and I realized some upgrades, and the Havana's sound is better at all chapters (texture, refinement, better soundstage, better focus, etc.) Would not be allowed to become thinner. Relax!


----------



## korzena

>Havana is good enough in this chapter. I compared a year ago Havana with Lavry DA10, Havana haesn't been modified, except the tube. Lavry was thinner in sound. On the other hand, >I don't thing that upgrades provide light/thin sound. I use for example WE 396A tube and I realized some upgrades, and the Havana's sound is better at all chapters (texture, refinement, >better soundstage, better focus, etc.) Would not be allowed to become thinner. Relax! 

Thanks! I am a bit more relaxed now as it is good news to me

Can you tell what difference the WE 396A tube alone (without other mods) introduced to the sound in comparison to the stock one? I am interested in getting this tube as MDHT offers it with Havana for $45 extra.


----------



## loserica

korzena said:


> >Havana is good enough in this chapter. I compared a year ago Havana with Lavry DA10, Havana haesn't been modified, except the tube. Lavry was thinner in sound. On the other hand, >I don't thing that upgrades provide light/thin sound. I use for example WE 396A tube and I realized some upgrades, and the Havana's sound is better at all chapters (texture, refinement, >better soundstage, better focus, etc.) Would not be allowed to become thinner. Relax!
> Thanks! I am a bit more relaxed now as it is good news to me
> Can you tell what difference the WE 396A tube alone (without other mods) introduced to the sound in comparison to the stock one? I am interested in getting this tube as MDHT offers it with Havana for $45 extra.




Actually I mean to Cryo (JW) WE396A, not WE 396A (simple). I fooled  On page 33 of this topic, DarKU said "With JW WE396A "everything just sound more balanced with more of everything, better image, detail, soundstage and a lot better bass". Clearly suggests what kind of changes bring it.


----------



## robeeert1

korzena said:


> >Havana is good enough in this chapter. I compared a year ago Havana with Lavry DA10, Havana haesn't been modified, except the tube. Lavry was thinner in sound. On the other hand, >I don't thing that upgrades provide light/thin sound. I use for example WE 396A tube and I realized some upgrades, and the Havana's sound is better at all chapters (texture, refinement, >better soundstage, better focus, etc.) Would not be allowed to become thinner. Relax!
> Thanks! I am a bit more relaxed now as it is good news to me
> Can you tell what difference the WE 396A tube alone (without other mods) introduced to the sound in comparison to the stock one? I am interested in getting this tube as MDHT offers it with Havana for $45 extra.




I'm not keen on Western Electric, I know you guys like it very much, In my opinion this is a very good tube, but nothing compares to bendix 6385 especially 1964 edition,
bendix from '50 (rtma or OEM version) will be very similar sounding to JW, but with better timbre, but still colored sound. Make your choice, better buy both and choose the right matching your preferences.


----------



## korzena

>Actually I mean to Cryo (JW) WE396A, not WE 396A (simple). I fooled  On page 33 of this topic, DarKU said "With JW WE396A "everything just sound more balanced with more >of everything, better image, detail, soundstage and a lot better bass". Clearly suggests what kind of changes bring it.

I am a bit confused with these tubes (I am a beginner with tubes).
MDHT website (http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/tube.htm) lists: "WE396A (D getter, JW Military version)". 
There is "JW" in it. But is it the same JW, you are talking about?


----------



## robeeert1

korzena said:


> >Actually I mean to Cryo (JW) WE396A, not WE 396A (simple). I fooled  On page 33 of this topic, DarKU said "With JW WE396A "everything just sound more balanced with more >of everything, better image, detail, soundstage and a lot better bass". Clearly suggests what kind of changes bring it.
> I am a bit confused with these tubes (I am a beginner with tubes).
> MDHT website (http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/tube.htm) lists: "WE396A (D getter, JW Military version)".
> There is "JW" in it. But is it the same JW, you are talking about?




YES


----------



## GP77

Hi !
   
  New Havana announced for October !!
   
http://www.audio-visual-factory.ch/produits_hifi_stereo.php/idelement/mhdt_laboratory_stockholm_dac_a_tube_24_bit_192_khz_920.html


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Guys, would you describe the sound of Havana more bright or dark?
> I am considering buying this DAC for my Audio-Technica W5000 which is a bit hot in treble and I wonder if the DAC could tame the brightness a little bit.
> (BRIGHT - a sound that emphasizes the upper midrange/lower treble. Harmonics are strong relative to fundamentals)
> (DARK - a tonal balance that tilts downwards with increasing frequency. Opposite of bright. Weak high frequencies.)


 
   
  I'm not sure the term "dark" is appropriate ... although I do understand the intention with the term. It tends to imply some sort of "coloration," which ... short of certain tubes in the Havana, I think is not too accurate.
   
  I'd more so lean towards describing the sound of the stock Havana as "natural" ... "organic" ... or, "analog" sounding. 
   
  Case in point: 
   
  When first researching DACs, I sort of did an impulse buy from Pacific Valve and Elect ... a Musiland MD=10 DAC: http://www.pacificvalve.us/MusilandMD10.html
   
  I had no idea what to expect as it was the first stand alone DAC I'd ever tried ... and what I found when first listening to it was that I hated it. Now, this is no slant on the folks at Musiland and in no way do I mean to "attack" their product ... but to my ear, it was like listening to a machine replicate music. It was hard, overtly bright, "tinkly," thin and everything about it just screamed "DIGITAL" to me. I found myself hyper aware of "sounds" instead of music. I sent it back after only a few days.
   
  So I then read about NOS DACs and took the plunge with the Havana (a plunge for me, mind you as I'm a poor schmuck).  
   
  On first listen, I knew I had finally arrived. The Havana just more so approximates natural music to my ear. More than my computer sound card, for sure. Far more than the Musiland MD-10 (understatement). 
   
  My roommate has a fairly sophisticated vinyl rig. 4 or 5 grand worth of record player and nothing I've heard, other than the Havana, captures the same sort of analogue like presentation in a digital arena.
   
  Is it "dark?" ... I'd say no. Does it sound natural? I'd say yes. Possibly, just an issue of semantics but thought I'd elaborate.
   
  For cans leaning towards the "bright" side of things, think Grado, for instance ... I've found the Havana along with a decent tube amp to be truly excellent.
   
  ...
   
  That said? I really really really really *really* want to hear the new Stockholm DAC.
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1

S1rah,
I'd more so lean towards describing the sound of the stock Havana as "natural" ... "organic" ... or, "analog" sounding. 
Is it "dark?" ... I'd say no. Does it sound natural? I'd say yes. 

Good joke!

The stock Havana is not natural, give me a break, the middle class of cd player is more natural,
Colorations, no details, sounds dark but very pleasant I have to admit.

s1rah please be gentle with me, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.



Cheers


----------



## s1rrah

No worries, mate.


----------



## korzena

Well, I would assiociate "organic" or "analog" sounding more with the "dark" side.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Well, I would assiociate "organic" or "analog" sounding more with the "dark" side.


 

 That's because analog has now become synonym of sweet top-end, roll-ff, etc etc....which is wrong.
  In my opinion the stock Havana is not dark, the Ref.5 I used to own was darker. I wouldn't describe neither of them "analog"


----------



## LionelH2

Is this the part number?  How is the size fit?
   

  MUNDORF-70309  QTY ADD *2.2uf / 1200V*, *M-CAP® Supreme Silver & Gold,* 36*56mm

   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> 
> The Mundorfs silver/gold 2,2uF are extremely nice. They have the same details and resolution like Vcaps, but they are refined and tasty. I absolutely love their timbre and quality. Vcaps are definitely better than stock ones.


----------



## loserica

realmassy said:


> That's because analog has now become synonym of sweet top-end, roll-ff, etc etc....which is wrong.
> In my opinion the stock Havana is not dark, the Ref.5 I used to own was darker. I wouldn't describe neither of them "analog"




Yes, when I heard for the first time Havana, coincided with the moment when I went on electrostatics (STAX SRS-4040II "Signature"). Sound presents an analog play, without loss of transparency or texture refinement and without become "dark". Electrostatics are known for accuracy in play details and for transparent sound. Therefore, depends on the listening.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Yes, when I heard for the first time Havana, coincided with the moment when I went on electrostatics (STAX SRS-4040II "Signature"). Sound presents an analog play, without loss of transparency or texture refinement and without become "dark". Electrostatics are known for accuracy in play details and for transparent sound. Therefore, depends on the listening.


 

 I had the STAX SRS-4040 (stock provided amp) and thought it was really really good with the Havana. I regret selling it, actually. Will most likely end up investing in Stax again because of it.
   
  When my Proverbial Ship(tm) comes in ... I'm going to get an 009 setup.
   
  Big emphasis on "when," BTW.  
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I had the STAX SRS-4040 (stock provided amp) and thought it was really really good with the Havana. I regret selling it, actually. Will most likely end up investing in Stax again because of it.
> 
> When my Proverbial Ship(tm) comes in ... I'm going to get an 009 setup.
> 
> ...


 

 I sold my (decent) dynamic rig as soon as I heard a basic Stax 2050 system 
  Now I'm waiting the delivery of a 507 + 323S combo: I should get them on Thursday, and obviously can't wait to listen to them, after 40 days of iPod + Ety ER4


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Is this the part number?  How is the size fit?
> 
> 
> MUNDORF-70309  QTY ADD *2.2uf / 1200V*, *M-CAP® Supreme Silver & Gold,* 36*56mm


 

 The output caps are 2 x (SUPSG-230) - 2.2uF 1200V M Cap Supreme silver/gold Cap, these are really great, in my opinion these are higher level than vcaps, you'll love them like family.
   
  To install them you'll have to solder out some caps, extend their legs and solder them back.
  These are very big and the Havana is a compact DAC.
  see enclosed photos


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The output caps are 2 x (SUPSG-230) - 2.2uF 1200V M Cap Supreme silver/gold Cap, these are really great, in my opinion these are higher level than vcaps, you'll love them like family.
> 
> To install them you'll have to solder out some caps, extend their legs and solder them back.
> These are very big and the Havana is a compact DAC.
> see enclosed photos


 


  my guess is you havent heard the vcap CuTF then? best from duelund, vcap tftf and mundorf sgio rolled into one. dont think they go that large yet though. they replaced mundorf as bypass caps on the output of my ackodac in parallel to 4.7uf auricaps and arent going anywhere.


----------



## robeeert1

Qusp,
  I haven't heard the Vcaps CuTF nor TFTF. I compared them only to Vcaps OIMP.


----------



## korzena

One more question about the Havana sound: How is its speed and dynamics?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I sold my (decent) dynamic rig as soon as I heard a basic Stax 2050 system
> Now I'm waiting the delivery of a 507 + 323S combo: I should get them on Thursday, and obviously can't wait to listen to them, after 40 days of iPod + Ety ER4


 

 Good step forward, you will be enjoying the combo very much, I think the next step is Omega2. I'm waiting for opportunity to listen to 009. I heard very good things about that headphones,
  details, details and details but no magic opposite to Omega2 mk1.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The output caps are 2 x (SUPSG-230) - 2.2uF 1200V M Cap Supreme silver/gold Cap, these are really great, in my opinion these are higher level than vcaps, you'll love them like family.
> 
> To install them you'll have to solder out some caps, extend their legs and solder them back.
> These are very big and the Havana is a compact DAC.


 

 Congratulation, Robeeert! It looks very, very nice!


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Qusp,
> I haven't heard the Vcaps CuTF nor TFTF. I compared them only to Vcaps OIMP.


 


  aaaahh, yeah well that makes more sense, oimp is a very good polypropylene cap, but its still just a polypropylene cap. it can get a touch tubby and 'round' with the wrong gear and i would expect tubes to fall into that category. I highly recommend the CuTF if you get the chance, settles in a bit quicker than tftf and is more listenable while doing so. think sgio with more transient pop and exceedingly natural


----------



## jjinh

Good to see some Stax love here!
   
  I've always used my Stax with my Havana (and Buffalo with my dynamics) and I find it a good match.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The output caps are 2 x (SUPSG-230) - 2.2uF 1200V M Cap Supreme silver/gold Cap, these are really great, in my opinion these are higher level than vcaps, you'll love them like family.
> 
> To install them you'll have to solder out some caps, extend their legs and solder them back.
> These are very big and the Havana is a compact DAC.
> see enclosed photos


 
   
  Please tell me what capacitor are they: 4X2.200 uf/25V, and 1000 uf/16V (they are marked with red color - X). Thank You!


----------



## robeeert1

4x2200uF 25V Nichicon I repalced with 4 x Elna ROB TONEREX 3300uF 25V (the best you can find - believe me, cost did not matter), 1000uF 16V Nichicon I replaced with 1000uF 16V Black Gate FK series (best you can find for this job)


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> 4x2200uF 25V Nichicon I repalced with 4 x Elna ROB TONEREX 3300uF 25V (the best you can find - believe me, cost did not matter), 1000uF 16V Nichicon I replaced with 1000uF 16V Black Gate FK series (best you can find for this job)


 

 Robeeert, I intend to change all Nichicon capacitors with ELNA Silmic II (or what are), becouse I know that Elna are a superior solution. In comparative tests, Elna are better in terms of tone realism, softness, dynamic, definition, etc. I am looking for this becouse electrostatics are very sensitive and respond immediately any change, no matter how small. On the other hand, Elna are very recommanded for classical and jazz music! It's those type of musical styles requiring refinement. Two friends use ELNA capacitors in an amplifier and a DIY pre-amplifier&converter and both are very satisfied with the result. ELNA give a musical and relaxed sound. I heard the sound and was very good. Piano and voice sounds so natural...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Other changes: I want to replace all film capacitors, three with Russian Silver MIca (0,01 uF) and the remaining six, if I thought well , with AUDIENCE AuriCap (0,22uF, 0,1 uf);
  "Vampire" BNC connector for S/PDif digital input (it will provide a digital audio signal with a high amplitude). LEGATO is equipped with only bnc connector and now, I use an adaptor (rca>>bnc);
  On this occasion, I will remove the two stock-film capacitors (C5, C25).
   
  In terms of output capacitors, I keep V-Cap! I dont't know how much I would encourage Mundorf cap., anyway polypropylene capacitors are very good conductors and in terms of performance! On the other hand it comes and money...But I do feel clear what do these capacitors with electrostatic sound: give details, many details, and realism..
  What is your opinion, about ELNA capacitors and stock-capacitors replacement (for Havana)? Worth movement? What you felt in sound, after you replaced? I think, after they...you say quietly you are in high-end audio headphone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Thank You!


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> I sold my (decent) dynamic rig as soon as I heard a basic Stax 2050 system
> Now I'm waiting the delivery of a 507 + 323S combo: I should get them on Thursday, and obviously can't wait to listen to them, after 40 days of iPod + Ety ER4


 


  It's now a week with the new Stax system: very nice indeed. I had to swap the tube on my Havana though, I put the JJ 6386 back, in my opinion the Bendix was too soft. Still, I wish the bass to be more articulate and defined, I'll probably complete the burn in of my 507 and then think of the source, I'm kinda feeling it's the bottle neck now.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Robeeert, I intend to change all Nichicon capacitors with ELNA Silmic II (or what are), becouse I know that Elna are a superior solution. In comparative tests, Elna are better in terms of tone realism, softness, dynamic, definition, etc. I am looking for this becouse electrostatics are very sensitive and respond immediately any change, no matter how small. On the other hand, Elna are very recommanded for classical and jazz music! It's those type of musical styles requiring refinement. Two friends use ELNA capacitors in an amplifier and a DIY pre-amplifier&converter and both are very satisfied with the result. ELNA give a musical and relaxed sound. I heard the sound and was very good. Piano and voice sounds so natural...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Loserica,
 You can replace all Nichicons with Elna. (Havana will sound quite different after the mod but nobody knows how),
 I suppose it should sound better, but you can achieve much more with Havana's construction mixing the caps.


 Vcaps OIMP are good caps and only good, but if you're looking for extreme sound quality,
 they are not perfect solution.
 Vcaps CuTF and TFTF are extremely expensive ( Vcaps CuTF 1uF - $486 each - ($2000 output set), Vcaps 2uF TFTF $459 each($920 set)), I bet they are not better than Mundorfs top of the line which are cheaper  - $100 each ($200 set))


 I found the Havana had some key caps which should be replaced with care.

 Digital section's caps, powersupply's caps, some of the foil caps etc....
 (hundreds moves to achieve satisfaction)

 Next weekend I'm replacing the stock 0,22uF foil cap with:
 Candidates to that place are:
 Mundorf silver/gold,
 FT-3 Russian cap,
 Jupiter yellow vintage tone.

 Will send photos and my impressions about that operation.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> It's now a week with the new Stax system: very nice indeed. I had to swap the tube on my Havana though, I put the JJ 6386 back, in my opinion the Bendix was too soft. Still, I wish the bass to be more articulate and defined, I'll probably complete the burn in of my 507 and then think of the source, I'm kinda feeling it's the bottle neck now.


 

 Very nice!
  I put to beat STAX SR404LE + eXStatA!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Last year I was also interested of 507, but it was to be only SR404LE. However, the differences from SR404 "Signature" were high in favor of Limited Edition! Without discussion, instruments have body, were more clearly defined with higher focus, and much lower frequencies present. Then I compared the STAX amplifier (SRM-006IIt) who has up-graded tubes with Clear Top 6CG7 RCA (NOS) and EAT Cool dampers, with an electrostatic amp designed by Alex Cavalli. It was with integrate discret circuit (Solid-State). Comparative auditions lasted days and days, becouse I love the sound of STAX... But with all due respect, eXStatA given class and it sounded better from Stax at all chapter. Not only to those chapters than I expect to be better, I mean fast and focus, rezolution, decay and audio layering, etc, but also at refinement, transparency and texture! Not to mention an issue that aroused the curiosity: there are users who have compared this amplifier with "all the big fish" electrostatic amplifiers: KGSS Gilmore, Blue Hawaii SE, Woo Audio WES, etc. Of course, these solutions have sounded "slightly" better, but at what price!
   
  Finnaly I repeat again: Havana is very, very sensitive any change: power cables, transports, conectors. Amplification is very, very important in headphones electrostatic world!
  I'm afraid that SRM323S is not good enough becouse 507 has great potential!
   
  I  wish you pleasant listening with them and enjoy electrostatics sound!


----------



## robeeert1

Upgraded components - x red, going to upgrade - x green.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *loserica*
> I love the sound of STAX... But with all due respect, eXStatA given class and it sounded better from Stax at all chapter. Not only to those chapters than I expect to be better, I mean fast and focus, rezolution, decay and audio layering, etc, but also at refinement, transparency and texture! Not to mention an issue that aroused the curiosity: there are users who have compared this amplifier with "all the big fish" electrostatic amplifiers: KGSS Gilmore, Blue Hawaii SE, Woo Audio WES, etc. Of course, these solutions have sounded "slightly" better, but at what price!
> 
> Finnaly I repeat again: Havana is very, very sensitive any change: power cables, transports, conectors. Amplification is very, very important in headphones electrostatic world!
> ...


 

 Yes, the Havana is very very sensitive to any changes. I love powercables, they give me the substantial differences in the sound reproduction, no excellent powercord!, no hi-end sound!.
  I love stax too.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> e are users who have compared this amplifier with "all the big fish" electrostatic amplifiers: KGSS Gilmore, Blue Hawaii SE, Woo Audio WES, etc. Of course, these solutions have sounded "slightly" better, but at what price!


 

 This is the same with DACs..
   
  Let's assume we have the DAC priced for $400, we like the sound of it, now the x-man brings us the DAC worth $800, we like it much more than the $400 worth DAC,
  now let's double the price to $1600, we hear better sound but the differece is not the same big as between $400 and $800 DAC,
  Let's double the price again to $3200 DAC, the difference is "slight" but audible, ..and so on.... and the differeneces between DACs worth $10.000 and $20.000
  -  the matter of preferences or the rest of our system.


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
   
  The stax srm-007 is "slightly" better than srm-006 but the price's doubled.
  The good tubes make more differences.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Finnaly I repeat again: Havana is very, very sensitive any change: power cables, transports, conectors. Amplification is very, very important in headphones electrostatic world!
> I'm afraid that SRM323S is not good enough becouse 507 has great potential!


 
   
  It might be, I don't have enough experience with other amps. I'm saying the source is the bottleneck IMHO because simply changing the tube the sound was completely different. The 323S is still a budget amp (relatively speaking) but the 507 are so easy to drive.
  As I said before, I love the Havana, but IMHO there's no point in spending the same price trying to improve it.
   
  In the next few weeks I'll have the opportunity to try some DACs and I'm curious to see how the Havana stacks against the Calix, the W4S DAC-2, the M2Tech Young.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> It might be, I don't have enough experience with other amps. I'm saying the source is the bottleneck IMHO because simply changing the tube the sound was completely different. The 323S is still a budget amp (relatively speaking) but the 507 are so easy to drive.
> As I said before, I love the Havana, but IMHO there's no point in spending the same price trying to improve it.
> 
> In the next few weeks I'll have the opportunity to try some DACs and I'm curious to see how the Havana stacks against the Calix, the W4S DAC-2, the M2Tech Young.


 

 The reason to which I said this is becouse I noticed: STAX headphones are very, very sensitive to the source and amplification. Practical, these headphones may sound increasingly better simply by changing something in the audio setup. Their reponse reaction is incredibly, and we don't imagine where could end audio experience with them. I heavn't reffered to the fact that may not be conducted of STAX amp., might lead them even better, but rather that there are solutions DIY which provides higher. And eXStatA is one of them. It's kind of what I would call "brute force" of amplification, the real power! With electrostatic headphones, if you want to sound really good, than You need power amplifier...Otherwise you will lose some "details", that could be played so nice. The last thing that I would change in my audio setup is the headphone! Becouse it is "STAX", and call their own. Of course, they are superior solutions from SR404LE, or 507, but that would be require the respectfull way as possible review the entire setup. What would be a real financial fun...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Add quality could come from the amp, or from the DAC, or from the transport, filter, source, players, cables, etc., last time I would think headphones (I only keep this reasoning in this context).


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> In the next few weeks I'll have the opportunity to try some DACs and I'm curious to see how the Havana stacks against the Calix, the W4S DAC-2, the M2Tech Young.


 

 Please post some thoughts/comparisons.


----------



## loserica

@Robeeert,
   
  I told you that I intend to change all film capacitors into Havana, and I thought to Audience Auricap (polypropylene capacitors). But they are only 400V, (not 250V such as those stock-capacitors). What do you think?


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
   
  400V is better, go ahead.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Has anybody ideea where I could find the best BNC (digital input) connector for Havana? I want to replace the "stock-RCA" connector with BNC, becouse Legato is equipped with BNC output and cable connectors. I would be interested and if it was tested, compared with RCA conector. Theoretically it should be a superior solution.


 
  Try this one. It is better that Vampire- berrilium copper -  http://bg.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/5222092-1/jack-bnc-75ohm-rt-a-pcb-au/dp/1831680?Ntt=1831680 - I have ordered one for a test.
  Cheers


----------



## loserica

Hi, Ignat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I already ordered Vampire.., although these jacks are cheap, so there it's not a problem to buy another one. With this international trade, I wait some time, but this is the situation...
  Besides BNC jacks, I will change all electrolytic Nichicon capacitors with ELNA, all stock film-capacitors with Auricap Audience (for 0,1/ 0,22 uf) and Russian Silver Mica capacitors (for 0,01 uf). I'm very curious how it sounds Havana after I complete these modification. I feel that LEGATO request these changes! I can confirm once again, the sound has improved substantially with this efficient transport (in terms of sound stamp and texture, refinement and higher decay&audio layering). Playing and placing instruments in depth, not only in width.., consistent and coherent playback, naturalness and relaxation listening, all these are present. I am very, very happy for that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will make an ample review after I finish.


----------



## niamex

Hi Mois,
  I have warned you that the upgrading is an endless process , getting more and more costly but at the end of the day you have a feeling that something is improved..Frankly speaking I have already forgotten the original sound of the HAVANA so it doesn't matter anymore.
  Anyhow I will not go so expensive like Robert with his Black Gate non polar caps /they are the best/ but recently found  some ELNA non polar which should be much better than the stock Nichikon's and better than mine - Nichikon's green non polar. Will send you four pieces as soon as I get them.
  Cheers,


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Thanks for the info Robeert, I am also getting a lot of good information from Mdht about the caps / chips etc.
> 
> btw, you are right about c5 and c25, but apparently there is a cap next to c5 that can be changed to a higher value to get better bass response...original value of 47uf but can be changed to 100uf or more for better bass.  I also learned a lot about the PCM56P chips floating around as well as the newer production TI PCM56P chips.  I even saw the future of the Havana


 

 Hi,
  which one do you mean by next to C5 ?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Hi Mois,
> I have warned you that the upgrading is an endless process , getting more and more costly but at the end of the day you have a feeling that something is improved..Frankly speaking I have already forgotten the original sound of the HAVANA so it doesn't matter anymore.
> Anyhow I will not go so expensive like Robert with his Black Gate non polar caps /they are the best/ but recently found  some ELNA non polar which should be much better than the stock Nichikon's and better than mine - Nichikon's green non polar. Will send you four pieces as soon as I get them.
> Cheers,


 
   
  Thank's. I already ordered the capacitors. I expect that ELNA to be more refined from Nichicon, and Auricap give me a touch of naturalness and at the same time a more dynamic in sound. I see after. A friend told me: " Once you have entered in "high-end" audio headphone, you will pay increasingly more for increasingly less!". Now , I don't know if it's "hi-fi" or "high-end" and  I don't like to consider me somewhere very high. But I'm happy with what I already have, that sounds pretty. High-end experience may cover an electrostatic amplifier that costs several thousand dollars and an SR-007 or 009 Stax headphone. I can not figure out how they would sound, but I wouldn't like it, the only reason being the financial. Otherwise you're out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, it is more convenient for more quality to change something into Havana. Especially as I get to be very ok! At least I hope so.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Robeert
> 
> I'm thinking about an R-Core transformer....possibly two in a separate enclosure.
> 
> Any ideas??


 
  Generally speaking you need three transformers - one for the receiver part, one for the DAC's and one for the analogue part. .So there are three separate PS /now you have two/ - you have to add four hyper fast soft recovery diodes and two filtering caps. Additionally I have installed trimmers in order to regulate the voltage of the PCM56 feeding - I have raised it from the original 9,5 V to 12,5 V in order to push the chips in higher class /OK not class A but still/. Now they get worm and theoretically work better. You will see some preliminary variant - still test run.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Dynobot, I have found the bloody evil - 47 uf and imm changed it with some very ordinary 100 uf cap - UNBELIEVABLE Will go ahead and try some other values and finally install some quality cap there.
  Thanks for the good suggestion !


----------



## LionelH2

Quote: 





niamex said:


> Hi,
> which one do you mean by next to C5 ?


 


 Sorry to be a pest, but could you please share the value and choice of Cap when you are satisfied?  Also, a picture with the location would be awesome.  Thanks in advance.  All the changes you guys have sugested have been wonderful improvements.


----------



## robeeert1

Some new high quality components have just arrived for the next upgrade. I wonder how Jupiter, Mundorf M-cap, FT-3 and the stock Havana 0,22uF caps compare to one another.
  I'm going to upgrade the tube socket also. Will post impressions and pictures by the end of the week.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Sorry to be a pest, but could you please share the value and choice of Cap when you are satisfied?  Also, a picture with the location would be awesome.  Thanks in advance.  All the changes you guys have sugested have been wonderful improvements.


 

 I haven't decided yet for myself. First I have replaced it with a cheap 100 uf and there was a noticeable improvement as *dinobot* suggested. After I tried 220 uf but I couldn't hear an improvement - just the opposite IMHO. Let me listen some more time and let's see what is the impression of Robert - than we will decide.
  Cheers


----------



## kimchee411

Hi, modding/soldering n00b here.  I've decided to be a little adventurous and try the PCM56P-K and output cap (Jupiter) mods myself.  Couple questions:
   
  1.  How do you keep the caps and ICs in a stable position when soldering them to the PCB since you need 2 hands to do the soldering?
   
  2.  Is it hard to unmount the PCB?  What tools are required?
   
  3.  From the pics of the ICs, it looks like they are mounted by through hole soldering.  Is that right?  Probably a very dumb question, but better safe than sorry!
   
  Any soldering tips/pitfalls I should be aware of?  I already have the iron and solder (Cardas tri-eutectic -- that should work, right?), just need a wick to clean up the old stuff.  I have soldered exactly once in my life, which was a pair of new tweeters (okay, 4 times if you count all the connections), never on a PCB.  Is it too risky to try it on this relatively expensive piece of equipment?  I have no problem taking it to my tech, but would rather avoid the travel and turnaround time.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## kimchee411

I have decided against the Jupiter caps as I already have a rather dark sounding amp.  Has anybody tried the Mundorf Silver/Oil caps or know definitively that they will fit?


----------



## kimchee411

Nevermind, I think I got the answers to my questions.  No soldering required for the DAC chips!  Woo hoo!  I also saw what robeeert1 had to do to make the Mundorf caps fit -- no, thanks.
   
  Has anybody had the chance to compare V-Cap OIMP to Jupiter HT yet?  Any other good caps that will fit without hacking?  I've spent a LOT of time reading this thread, but didn't notice mention of other similar or better grade caps.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Nevermind, I think I got the answers to my questions.  No soldering required for the DAC chips!  Woo hoo!  I also saw what robeeert1 had to do to make the Mundorf caps fit -- no, thanks.
> 
> Has anybody had the chance to compare V-Cap OIMP to Jupiter HT yet?  Any other good caps that will fit without hacking?  I've spent a LOT of time reading this thread, but didn't notice mention of other similar or better grade caps.


 

 M-caps silver/gold made by Mundorf are hard to fit, but they're worth the effort. The Jupiter HT may be great sounding also, it'll be not easy to fit them in, too. The same diameter as Mundor's silver/gold.
   
  Jupiter HT 2,2uF   -     50mm x 35mm
  Mundorf silver/gold -    56mm x 36mm
   
  Diameter is more important in the case of Havana.


----------



## korzena

Anybody compared Havana to Rega DAC? What are the main sonic differences between the two DACs?
   
  After reading many impressions/reviews of Rega and Havana DAC, the two seem to have lots of in common (sound earthy and organic, tonally dense, overall "rightness", musicality, good rhythm, not over-detailed). The differences I could spot after reading only (unfortunately I haven't listened to either of the DACs) are that Havana provides more delicate, subtle sound (which some people claim, might not be aggresive enough for rock music) and Havana has a wide and very deep soundstage (which I consider a big advantage - not sure about the soundstage of Rega DAC)
   
  I am considering buying one of these DACs and it is difficult to decide which one will be better for me as I don't have a chance to listen to them beforehand.
  (I'm mostly interested in sonic abilities. I will use coaxial input only).
   
  Any help appreciated!


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Anybody compared Havana to Rega DAC? What are the main sonic differences between the two DACs?


 

 IMHO that kind of comparison is not correct - they are completely different as architecture - NOS Single Ended  tube buffered against a digital filter and they sounds different - depends what your preferences are /mainly what kind of music you are listening to/. So instead of asking this you better find a way to listen to both of them and take your decision.
  Cheers,


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *niamex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> IMHO that kind of comparison is not correct - they are completely different as architecture - NOS Single Ended  tube buffered against a digital filter and they sounds different - depends what your preferences are /mainly what kind of music you are listening to/. So instead of asking this you better find a way to listen to both of them and take your decision.
> Cheers,


 

 Perhaps the sonic differences between these very different two DACs, from some one who has owned both, is exactly what the dude is looking for?
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Perhaps the sonic differences between these very different two DACs, from some one who has owned both, is exactly what the dude is looking for?
> 
> Ro
> .j


 


   
  Exactly! I would be happy to audition them prior to purchase. Then I would know which one I like. Unfortunately it's not possible, that's why I am asking here. I know it can't replace own listening, but what to do..


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Exactly! I would be happy to audition them prior to purchase. Then I would know which one I like. Unfortunately it's not possible, that's why I am asking here. I know it can't replace own listening, but what to do..


 

 You better get in touch with *robeeert1* and ask whether he can help you.
  Cheers


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Exactly! I would be happy to audition them prior to purchase. Then I would know which one I like. Unfortunately it's not possible, that's why I am asking here. I know it can't replace own listening, but what to do..


 

 Another thing I'd suggest is to post a "Rega DAC vs Havana DAC" sort of message in the "Dedicated Source Components" forum (not just here in the Havana thread); you might run a better chance of encountering feedback from those who have owned both.
   
  Good luck, mate.
   
  .j


----------



## kimchee411

Try starting a thread on Audiogon as well.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Another thing I'd suggest is to post a "Rega DAC vs Havana DAC" sort of message in the "Dedicated Source Components" forum (not just here in the Havana thread); you might run a better chance of encountering feedback from those who have owned both.
> 
> 
> kimchee411
> ...


 
   
  Thank you for the suggestions!


----------



## robeeert1

---


----------



## s1rrah

@ Robeert1: 
   
  Looks sick, man. Wish I could hear it. 
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1




----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You have not the slightest notion what differences I'm talking about.
> 
> I read in this thread you heard the fuse, , changing one cap gives you effect x 10.
> Good luck. mate.


 

 Oh, no worries, mate.
   
  I'm *completely* satisfied with my (nearly) stock Havana. I'm not much of a DIY guy (if at all) ... but I sure like watching you guys tweak.
   
  Keep it up.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I read in this thread you heard the fuse, , changing one cap gives you effect x 10.
> Good luck. mate.


 

 BTW, mate, why not box up that sick ass Havana mod of yours and send it to me?
   
  LOL.
   
  JK,
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1




----------



## robeeert1

Sirrah,
   
  Shipping oversees is not easy, taxes, customs, costs etc. but it doesn't mean it is not possible.
   
  Some day you'll get my DAC for testing. Now I'm preparing it for the next upgrade.
  Cheers


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Sirrah,
> 
> Shipping oversees is not easy, taxes, customs, costs etc. but it doesn't mean it is not possible.
> 
> ...


 

 "The NEXT UPGRADE!??", Robert? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  PS: How far can go Havana? and how far can you go?


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
  I'm just finishing, several caps left to replace, and maybe power supply(ugrading power supply needs seperate chassis, I'll have to think this upgrade over). This will be the end. I'm not touching the DAC any more. ))))))))
  The DAC will beat over $10k worth DACs.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> I'm just finishing, several caps left to replace, and maybe power supply(ugrading power supply needs seperate chassis, I'll have to think this upgrade over). This will be the end. I'm not touching the DAC any more. ))))))))
> The DAC will beat over $10k worth DACs.


 
   
  Robert,
  I think it would be something to change in your dac, which is worth!
 Why not change stock conectors (or those that appearing in one of the pictures you posted a few weeks ago) with *WBT* (AG RCA Pure silver), and "white silver hook-up whire (from DHLABS)? I say, I immediately felt a change in sound, after I installed WBT conectors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  After I finish a few "cosmetic" (Elna, Auricap, R.Silver Mica, bnc-conector), I will post photos to see how beautiful they are working conectors.


----------



## robeeert1

loserica,
   
  I intend to change all connectors, will start with a good teflon tube socket (I have one), I expect rather a "slight" change in sound.
  Will replace the rest connectors as last upgrade-move with pure silver ones.


----------



## robeeert1

The biggest results we obtain changing the caps and some resistors, I match them with care, because sometimes one cap in inappropriate place spoils everything. Of course DACS and tube are the key upgrade (without it all futher upgrades are senseless).


----------



## sridhar3

This thread is amazing.


----------



## LionelH2

I just ordered the Russian FT-3 cap, would like to do the upgrade to the 47uf cap at the same time. Any progress on the listening test on which value and cap choice?
   
  Thanks, guys I very much appreciate your efforts!


----------



## robeeert1

Russian FT3 0,22uF is a great cap, very hard to fit, but it is worth the effort (considerably improves the sound). I replaced almost all 47uF with Black Gates FK (BG N series in digital section), to my eras they are the best, Elna Silmic RFS Electroltic is a second best. Ignat(niamex) suggested to replace one of 47uF (marked on the photo) with higher value like 100uF. I will check it by the next occasion. Now I'm concentrated on the 470uF cap behind the big output caps (Havana strongly reacts to its change), ordered Elna Silmic RFS 470uF 35V, I have BG FK one and looking for something extremely good yet. Ordered also FT3 0,1uF, will try to replace C5 with it.  (now I have no C5 at all, removed it)
  (You can fit max two of the big Russian caps in the Havana)
   

   
  edit:
   
  BG have a long time "burn in", 100 hours or longer


----------



## LionelH2

Thanks, awesome.  By the way, I love the Mundorf silver/gold output caps. 
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Russian FT3 0,22uF is a great cap, very hard to fit, but sound improvement is worth the effort. I replaced all 47uF with Black Gates FK, to my eras they are the best, but Elna Silmic RFS Electroltic is a second best. Ignat suggested to replace one of 47uF(marked on the photo) with higher value like 100uF. I will check it by the next occasion. Now I'm concentrated on the 470uF behind the big output caps (Havana strongly reacts to its change), ordered Elna Silmic RFS 470uF 35V, I have BG FK one and looking for something extremely good yet. Ordered also FT3 0,1uF, will try to replace C5 with it.  (now I have no C5 at all, removed it)
> (You can fit max two of the big Russian caps in the Havana)


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Thanks, awesome.  By the way, I love the Mundorf silver/gold output caps.


 


  Me too.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Me too.


 


  RE: Mundorf silver/gold output caps?
   
  Can any of you guys who have modded your Havana with these caps comment on the general differences verses the stock MHDT labs caps?
   
  I'm not a modder ... but I *am* considering the fairly simple mod of replacing the main MHDT output caps with something else ... (actually, I might get someone else to do it for me) ... LOL ...
   
  So any thoughts re: sound quality differences re: the Mundorf silver/gold?
   
  Thanks in advance...
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> RE: Mundorf silver/gold output caps?
> 
> Can any of you guys who have modded your Havana with these caps comment on the general differences verses the stock MHDT labs caps?
> 
> ...


 

 The Mundorf silver/gold has better articulation, better separation of instruments than the stock cap, it has a little creamy texture,
  poor quality recordings are more tasty. Supper choice for classics and jazz.
   
  If you decide to purchase them, I can send you the best bendix for a test if you like of course.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The Mundorf silver/gold has better articulation, better separation of instruments than the stock cap, it has a little creamy texture,
> worse recorded songs are more tasty. Supper choice for classics and jazz.
> 
> If you decide to purchase them, I can send you the best bendix for a test if you like of course


 


  I might be interested in trying the Bendix (although, I've owned several NOS 6385's and 2C51's and am fairly familiar with them; however, in conjunction with the Mundorf's, I have not) ...
   
  Anyway ... the Mundorf's are fairly pricey little beasts I see and I'll be waiting until I get my new Shure SE535's payed off before investing in any caps for the Havana...
   
  Thanks for the comments on the caps, btw ... if and when I upgrade the output caps, my main objective will be to find a piece that improves on what I think is just a slight bit of "looseness" in the bass of the default MHDT Labs caps. Would like to tighten the bass up a bit for the most part ... better dynamics, of course, would be nice too ... 
   
  I'll hit you guys up if and when.
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> ..... my main objective will be to find a piece that improves on what I think is just a slight bit of "looseness" in the bass of the default MHDT Labs caps. Would like to tighten the bass up a bit for the most part ... better dynamics, of course, would be nice too ...
> 
> I'll hit you guys up if and when.
> 
> ...


 

  
  We can obtain considerably better dynamics only by upgrading the powersupply. We have to use stronger separate transformers (powersupply) and the bass will be tighten up and fast,
  this upgrade needs separate chassis.
   
  We can "slightly" improve dynamic using higher values for certain caps.
  I'll keep you informed.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Ignat(niamex) suggested to replace one of 47uF (marked on the photo) with higher value like 100uF. I will check it by the next occasion. Now I'm concentrated on the 470uF cap behind the big output caps (Havana strongly reacts to its change), ordered Elna Silmic RFS 470uF 35V, I have BG FK one and looking for something extremely good yet. Ordered also FT3 0,1uF, will try to replace C5 with it.  (now I have no C5 at all, removed it)
> (You can fit max two of the big Russian caps in the Havana)
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Frankly speaking it was firstly  suggested by someone in the previous posts /I have quoted him/ but the best result in my case was after I simply placed there one general purpose / mean very simple one/ 100 uF.100V in parallel - on the bottom part of the board. Now I have ordered an ELNA Silmic II for there. Be careful - in parallel the value will be the sum of them but the voltage is shared - therefore you need 100 V for the second one.
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## niamex

In the meantime I have soldered one AMPOHM Paper in Oil ,22 uF and will make a cold test run within the next five minutes.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> In the meantime I have soldered one AMPOHM Paper in Oil ,22 uF and will make a cold test run within the next five minutes.


 


  Waiting for your impressions, Havana reacts to this cap.


----------



## loserica

Havana reacts very easily to every change.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Waiting for your impressions, Havana reacts to this cap.


 

 OK very promising  at the very beginning but it takes hours as you know. Anyway normally it is always getting better so let's see.
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

Dynobot,
  I found the transformer meets the Havana specs. It's a superior R-Core type, it should be better than the stock toroid.
  This one is appropriate dimentions, you should fit it with no problem.
  I ordered that transformer and expect further sound improvement, even better dynamics, we'll see when it comes.
   
  The other variant would be 2 or 3 separate transformers R-Cores or toroids. (much more powerful)
  (I found them also), in this case the improvemnt of dymanics and bass control
  should be obvious but it needs separate chassis due to dimentions.
   
   
  The best trans. is C-Core type, Audio Note uses it in the highest DACs or preamps,
  they are very hard to make and very expensive.
   
   
   
  on the photo R-core type, also very good one. (will be trying this in two weeks time)


----------



## LionelH2

I see you changed your .22uf ranking. How is the FT3 as far as dynamics? ?  Is it as punchy as the Mundorf? I cant decide to go FT3 or Mundorf. 

  
  Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Thanks, awesome.  By the way, I love the Mundorf silver/gold output caps.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> I see you changed your .22uf ranking. How is the FT3 as far as dynamics? ?  Is it as punchy as the Mundorf? I cant decide to go FT3 or Mundorf.


 


  Mundorf is more punchy then FT3. I'll probably stay with Jupiter. Personal preferences.


----------



## LionelH2

Thanks, that is what I suspected. Appreciate the help. 
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Mundorf is more punchy then FT3. I'll probably stay with Jupiter. Personal preferences.


----------



## ronl

This is my first post here. I have worked my way through most of this thread and believe I have a good plan for my Havana. I'm working on locating a PCM56P-K chip. I do have basic soldering skills and minimal experience with simple boards, but have never worked with a chip like this. So, newbie question - What is the best way to desolder the chip without damaging anything? What equipment (besides the soldering iron) would make things easier?
   
  Also, I've taken the cover off the Havana, but how is the board removed? Just unscrew the bottom?
   
  Thanks very much. Looking forward to getting to work.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





ronl said:


> This is my first post here. I have worked my way through most of this thread and believe I have a good plan for my Havana. I'm working on locating a PCM56P-K chip. I do have basic soldering skills and minimal experience with simple boards, but have never worked with a chip like this. So, newbie question - What is the best way to desolder the chip without damaging anything? What equipment (besides the soldering iron) would make things easier?
> 
> Also, I've taken the cover off the Havana, but how is the board removed? Just unscrew the bottom?
> 
> Thanks very much. Looking forward to getting to work.


 


  Chips PCM56P-L are in sockets, you do not need to desolder anything, just take them out with care.
  To take the board out, unscrew the bottom, the front panel and the rca connectors on the back of the DAC.


----------



## ronl

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Chips PCM56P-L are in sockets, you do not need to desolder anything, just take them out with care.
> To take the board out, unscrew the bottom, the front panel and the rca connectors on the back of the DAC.


 


 Thanks. That's what I suspected for the board.
   
  For the chips, I should have been more specific. I am referring to removing them from an old donor CD player. If all those pins are soldered in, do I need some type of solder sucker? I'm just not sure of the best way to proceed. Thanks for any input.


----------



## LionelH2

I got my Japan manufactured PCM56P-K on Ebay from this vendor.  Specify you only want Japan chips.  Huge difference over everything else out there.  I tried them all.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-BB-TI-DIP-PCM56P-PCM56PK-PCM56P-K-PCM56P-J-PCM56P-L-/250826335316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a666a2454


  
  Quote: 





ronl said:


> This is my first post here. I have worked my way through most of this thread and believe I have a good plan for my Havana. I'm working on locating a PCM56P-K chip. I do have basic soldering skills and minimal experience with simple boards, but have never worked with a chip like this. So, newbie question - What is the best way to desolder the chip without damaging anything? What equipment (besides the soldering iron) would make things easier?
> 
> Also, I've taken the cover off the Havana, but how is the board removed? Just unscrew the bottom?
> 
> Thanks very much. Looking forward to getting to work.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> I got my Japan manufactured PCM56P-K on Ebay from this vendor.  Specify you only want Japan chips.  Huge difference over everything else out there.  I tried them all.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-BB-TI-DIP-PCM56P-PCM56PK-PCM56P-K-PCM56P-J-PCM56P-L-/250826335316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a666a2454


 

 Can you send a photo of the "K" grade chips from that seller?


----------



## s1rrah

I just today received a review sample of the newly released MHDT Stockholm DAC ...
   
  So in a few weeks I should have a fairly extensive review done in comparison to the Havana...I'm doubtful that they will perform that much differently but I *am* curious as to how the higher bit depth/resolution capabilities of the Stockholm will sound.
   
  If you haven't read about it yet, here's a link to the Stockholm info:
   
http://aloaudio.com/stockholm-dac-from-mhdt-labs.html
   
  FYI.
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1

For those interested in 470uF replacement, Elna silmic II RFS 35V is a genius cap there. (better than BG FK)
  My mod is about to end, The Havana sounds perfect, when I first listened to that unmodded DAC,
  the piano sounded horrible, now the piano sounds *PERFECT*,
  fully holographic sound stage with a beautiful timbre.
  Now you can count how many violins play in the orchestra.
   
  The only transformer is left to be checked.


----------



## LionelH2

Which one is this?  Can I trouble you for a picture?  I think I am at the end of my mods as well. Thanks!

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> For those interested in 470uF replacement, Elna silmic II RFS 35V is a genius cap there. (better than BG FK)
> My mod is about to end, The Havana sounds perfect, when I first listened to that unmodded DAC,
> the piano sounded horrible, now the piano sounds *PERFECT*,
> fully holographic sound stage with a beautiful timbre.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Which one is this?  Can I trouble you for a picture?  I think I am at the end of my mods as well. Thanks!


----------



## LionelH2

Thanks one more time, I will do the .22uf, 100uf, and 470uf upgrades, then done.

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


>


----------



## RichGuy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I just today received a review sample of the newly released MHDT Stockholm DAC ...
> 
> So in a few weeks I should have a fairly extensive review done in comparison to the Havana...I'm doubtful that they will perform that much differently but I *am* curious as to how the higher bit depth/resolution capabilities of the Stockholm will sound.
> 
> ...


 
  I look forward to your review of the new Stockholm. I was just about to buy an Havana and just found out about the new Stockholm now I am thinking I will get the Stockholm but I haven't seen any review of it yet. I am hoping it may be a nice upgrade from the Havana.


----------



## robeeert1

My new chinese transformer came home today.
  It looks pretty nice, not like a chinese junk. I prepared it to installation.
   
  Voltages are very close to the stock one:
   
  Mesurements on secondary circuits are (no load) :
   
  The stock:   34,8V - 17,40V;   20,70V - 10,35V;
  The R-core:   37,40V - 18,70V;     22V - 11V;
  They are very close, aren't they?
   
  The Havana's powersupply uses positive adjustable regulator, so it'll be properly fed anyway.
  I'll get and install the plugs to R-core like the stock transformer has in order to switch them quickly for better comparison.
   
  We'll see what happens.
   
  I hope there will be no fire on the house )))


----------



## s1rrah

> I hope there will be no fire on the house


 
   
  LOL


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





richguy said:


> I look forward to your review of the new Stockholm. I was just about to buy an Havana and just found out about the new Stockholm now I am thinking I will get the Stockholm but I haven't seen any review of it yet. I am hoping it may be a nice upgrade from the Havana.


 

 It's going to be a bit (maybe some time before 2012, but not too sure) before I actually do a serious sit down comparison/review with both the Havana and the Stockholm (stock versions btw and both will be reviewed with JW WE396A tubes).
   
  I want the Stockholm to have at least a few hundred hours play time on it. And so my roommate and I have been taking turns "burning it in" (cause I don't know if it makes a difference or not and I lean towards covering all my bases). 
   
  Anyway, preliminary listening with the Stockholm (and only a few minutes at this point) have me placing it right around the same sonic signature of the Havana... smooth, musical, and perhaps just a bit more "extended" in the highs (but not in an ugly way at all), plenty of detail retrieval and super involving (running out of adjectives so I'll digress and save it for later)  .
   
  Once I have done a proper review, I'll make a new thread and post a link here.
   
  But if you needed to purchase right away? And *specifically*  if your personal needs involve "asynchronous USB" and "24bits/192kHz" input? Then I'd just go with the Stockholm. Myself? I'm quite content with the 16bit/96khz capabilities of the Havana and I don't do USB, so; but I know a lot of other folks want more in regards to both...so if that's your cup of tea, then the Stockholm might be a better choice.
   
  Regardless, the price difference is fairly nominal between the two and I think granular user preferences will decide who buys what.
   
  More later...
   
  Rock.
   
  .j


----------



## LionelH2

I installed the Mundorf .22UF yesterday and let it burn in overnight.  WOW.  Amazing!!!!

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Mundorf is more punchy then FT3. I'll probably stay with Jupiter. Personal preferences.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> I installed the Mundorf .22UF yesterday and let it burn in overnight.  WOW.  Amazing!!!!


 

 When your acquainted with the changes could you share a few thoughts? Those are the caps I'm considering purchasing to install in my own Havana; any impact on the bass? What else?
   
  Thanks in advance...
   
  .joel


----------



## robeeert1

Fortunately the house is not on fire ,
   
  I temporarily installed the R-core transformer, I'm shocked by the sound improvement,
  Mundorf .22 upgrade is nothing compared to R-core.
   
  This baby causes jaw dropping effect. WOW,  EVERYTHING is much improved,
   
  (separation, air, timbre, kick, etc...)
   
  I'm extremely close to real performance quality.
   
  I was to stop upgrading the DAC,  NO WAY !! 
   
  Frankly speaking the MHDT could source a better transformer for this DAC. The stock one is very poor.
   
  This is one of the most important upgrades for Havana in my opinion. !!!!!!
   
  Lionel, I'll give .22 Mundorf silver/gold a second chance next time.


----------



## Infoseeker

What are the pros/cons of these tube-DAC hybrids over a purely solid-state DAC? Including the advantages a solid state would have too please. (I am not trolling, if you fear it may start a troll war, then please just pm me the answer.)


----------



## robeeert1




----------



## LionelH2

Where did you source the transformer?  Looking forward to see how you install it physically.  Are you planning a separate chassis?
   

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Fortunately the house is not on fire ,
> 
> I temporarily installed the R-core transformer, I'm shocked by the sound improvement,
> Mundorf .22 upgrade is nothing compared to R-core.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Where did you source the transformer?  Looking forward to see how you install it physically.  Are you planning a separate chassis?


 
  I sourced it on ebay. I'll try to fit it in the Havana,t it seems it shouldn't be any problems. (For the time being I'm enjoying the new sound)
   
  I'm planning a separate chassis when I separate digital and analogue sections in the nearest future. (will need two or maybe there tranformers)


----------



## virtualvoid

Hi guys, I'm new here. Just sigend up for this great thread (but far too long . I've got a question: Has anyone compared the Havana to a PS Audio Digital Link III? 
   
  The thing is, I've just gotten myself the DLIII, but that was before I learned about this little puppy... I should say that I have some experience with affordable DACs (compared 5 or 6 DACs before going with the Eastern Electric Minimax a year ago), but just never tried a R/2R NOS DAC. Could it be that they are a little bit similar to the DLIII? In the various reviews I've read about the DLIII one aspect always was the "analog-like sound", musicality and so on. Just like a NOS, no?
   
  Actually, despite the DLIII, I'm somewhat eager to try the Havana, or more generally any good NOS DAC. But I'm not sure I'm really a NOS guy. What would be a reasonable way to find out? Get one of the supposedly best (Havana) for a first try, or maybe start with some cheaper NOS variant to get a feel, for example the Valab TDA1543 Luxury Edition (or the Chameleon) from ebay? Anyone experience with those, at best in comparison to the Havana?
   
  What confuses me the most is that I really like the DLIII - and it's not even burned in yet! The Minimax just pales in comparison, well, in every aspect I'd say. You know, I'm afraid the Havana is more like a step sidewards, instead of upwards. Any thoughts?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





infoseeker said:


> What are the pros/cons of these tube-DAC hybrids over a purely solid-state DAC? Including the advantages a solid state would have too please. (I am not trolling, if you fear it may start a troll war, then please just pm me the answer.)


 

 My main reason for using the Havana (other than simply sounding "just right" to my ear) is the ability to tailor the sound via tube choice; also, I chose a NOS R2/R design as I was looking first for a very "musical" source that put emphasis on sounding like music instead of "sound effects," while still yielding excellent dynamics and detail retrieval. I was also attracted to the fact that it's a fully discrete circuit, incorporating no OPAMPS in the signal path, which, having owned the Paradisea DAC before the Havana, I can say makes a real difference in clarity of signal and overall "cleanliness" of sound...
   
  Otherwise, I think the only differences between solid state and tube DACs will revolve strictly around the possibilities/differences introduced by the tube stage being present or not.
   
  There's probably greatly more differences between DACs which are non-oversampling vs. those that employ oversampling, filters and the like...I mean, moreso than the question of pure solid state vs. solid state w/ tube buffer...as, in the end, the Havana is simply a solid state DAC with a fairly simple tube *buffer* in the signal path...really not that big of a difference other than the changes you might introduce by tube choice.
   
  Best.
   
  .j


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> You can replace all Nichicons with Elna. (Havana will sound quite different after the mod but nobody knows how),
> I suppose it should sound better, but you can achieve much more with Havana's construction mixing the caps.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Finally came the long awaited day!
   
  I attached some pictures and I will change them with some better quality, if I have better light condition. As you can see, I chose Elna and Auricap capacitors and I replaced rca plug with bnc conector as I said. A move which is clearly imposed. "Hot" impressions are quite positive, in a word "WOW" sounds great!! I am very happy with the result: sound image is now "opened", more medium and high texture, transparency and natural playback, superior sound detail. High are detailed and refined. Piano, saxophone, guitar, violin, voice etc, sounds more natural. Sound image is smooth and coherent, stage presence, excellent separation of instruments... It's amazing how much has changed the sound! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  PS: Now I can say that Havana sounds excellent with Legato, but anyway , I think that Havana is now another "Havana", much better, much refined, brings a "touch" of high-end...


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
  Your Havana looks very nice, congratulations, I like your RCA connectors , Have to purchase these for my DAC.
   
  I'm going further in my upgrades. I'm preparing to feed the DACs with separate power, and thinking about  upgrading the clock.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> Your Havana looks very nice, congratulations, I like your RCA connectors , Have to purchase these for my DAC.
> 
> I'm going further in my upgrades. I'm preparing to feed the DACs with separate power, and thinking about  upgrading the clock.


 


  Thank You, Robert! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .. follows about two hundred hours the running (of capacitors).. then I return with impressions. My only regret is that the lack of time, I could not hear Havana in intermediate stages of capacitors replacing, and I cannot tell which is the contribution of each component (electrolytic, film capacitors, bnc conector). But it does not matter so much, the end result is more important.


----------



## LionelH2

I should have the transformer in a week. I need as much detail as possible as far as pin outs, connecting to rear power connector etc. thanks.
  
  Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Where did you source the transformer?  Looking forward to see how you install it physically.  Are you planning a separate chassis?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Upgrading the Havana is not simple. To achieve maximum sound quality you have to replace several caps the same values but different
> manufacturer always checking the sound. Several different tubes, chips. Do not replace all at one move. Everything must match, tube, caps, chips, otherwise the sound may be worse than before upgrade. I was checking sevaral manufacturers products to choose the right ones to achieve the sound I love. Now the Havana is a hi-end DAC.
> It's very helpful to have another DAC for comparison
> 
> Good Luck.


 

 Robert,
  Begin to understand litle by little how important is the converter in audio setup. But recognise also: the role of transport is not much inferior, is even very critical for a "NOS"  architecture... It seems, here, every detail counts. I didn't think that by changing capacitors, the sound will change so radically. Yes, "everything must match"! And you must choose good components!
  In another train of thoughts, I ask myself if Havana can be a high-end DAC, thinking of stock module. I say this becouse, changing components, leaving aside the technical aspects now, change considerably the sound stamp also. As they afect the sound even from day to day, even we admit that Havana isn't a high-end converter, is not very far! It feels best just listening. Havana is capable of naturalness, refinement, musicality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  One direct and immediately observable benefits of changing capacitors is (I begin to think without doubt that Elna are superior to Nichicon) is spaciousness of the sound, audio layering observable, decay very good, coherent "mix" of instruments and last but not least, the sound transparency!  On the other hand, I feel that voice is renderend much more textured, more natural, more credible! I hear low frequencies that I heavn't heard before, much lower bass, and high frequencies are significantly larger and more refined! I think here is the contribution of Auricap capacitors, also (especially in the midrange playback). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Havana before and after:


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> I should have the transformer in a week. I need as much detail as possible as far as pin outs, connecting to rear power connector etc. thanks.


 

 I'll try to find some time and describe the procedure of switching the transformers this week. (with photos)


----------



## LionelH2

Awesome.  Thank you so much.

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I'll try to find some time and describe the procedure of switching the transformers this week. (with photos)


----------



## robeeert1

*The procedure of switching the transformers in the Havana.*
   
If you're not sure you can handle this, ask someone experienced to do that for you.
BE CAREFUL, one mistake can damage the Havana.
BE CAREFUL - HIGH VOLTAGE !
   
shorter internal cables - better quality !!!


----------



## s1rrah

Good job on the  transformer mount/install. Looks awesome.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,
   
  Thank you for this excellent write up. I have two questions. I'm not sure about the jumpers, what determines if I have to change it from the original setting?  Also unclear about the L details. Not sure what you are referring to. 
   
  Otherwise, looking forward to making this upgrade and hearing the improvement. 
   
  Lionel


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> Thank you for this excellent write up. I have two questions. I'm not sure about the jumpers, what determines if I have to change it from the original setting?  Also unclear about the L details. Not sure what you are referring to.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Lionel,

 Jumpers are to set the voltage (230V or 115V) on the stock transformer. In the case of R-Core in our circuit they are not needed, (omitted), you can leave them where they are or remove completely. (I suggest to remove).
   
  Great sound improvement is obvious.
   
   
   
*Set the LIVE line correctly for better sound quality !*
   

   
   
   
  Check the lines on IEC plug not on connector inside the Havana.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,  
   
  Thanks, now I understand. Did you buy the connectors locally or on line?
   
  Lionel


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> Thanks, now I understand. Did you buy the connectors locally or on line?
> 
> Lionel


 


  Locally in the electronic spare parts shop.


----------



## HiFi-Rookie

@robeert1

 Hi, as you can see I'm new here.
 I'm following with great interest the modification of your Havana, because also I upgraded my Havana a little.
 I'm also using the Bendix 6385 (white boxed) I tried some different output caps. At this moment I only have bypassed the original caps with a Hovland MusiCap 0,047uf (until now is this the best solution) 
 A Hifi Tuning fuse (gold) didn't work in my system, I lost a lot of detail.
 I feel that you've completed the modification now approximately.
 Because how you think about power, power cables and your description of the stock Havana is exactly the same I have! Dark sounding, bad soundstage, bad piano etc. etc. that's why I want to give your modification a try.

 I have some questions if you don't mind;
 What can you say about sound of the modified Havana DAC?
 Should I think of a sort of an Audio Note DAC sound, or is the sound totally different?

 Because the discussion here on this forum consists of a lot posts, and finally I lost the thread a little, that's why I have some important questions about your final modification.
 I saw you changed many original parts as caps, resistors etc.
 1. Which brand/type resistors did you use in your modification?
 2. Did you change caps for a different/higher value, other than the Silver Mica?
 3. Are C5 and C25 still out in your final modification
 4. I think I lost something about the Mundorf 0.22; did you use this cap? and where?


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





hifi-rookie said:


> @robeert1
> 
> Hi, as you can see I'm new here.
> I'm following with great interest the modification of your Havana, because also I upgraded my Havana a little.
> ...


 

 As soon as we work in close cooperation with Robert I will post my modest opinion which is based on my experience -
  1. It is so long a story I wouldn't like to go across it again and again - pls read the thread.
  2.Resistors shoud be audio note or even better shinkoh - tantalum
  3.Yes, depends on your setup - I prefer c15 - 220 uF Elna Silmic II rfs and the output caps Mundorf Silver in Oil 2,7 uF bypassed with NOS Russian Silver mica 0,01 uF
  4. C5 and C25 are still there in my case - still replacing and testing different caps but value is always ,47 uF instead of 0,1 / for all the yellow ****s around/
  5.About 0,22 uF - the only place is coupling cup after the Siver micas at the input but we have different opinions with Robert - he uses Jupiter and myself a NOS Russian K71 polypropylene military from 1974 - pls note he has expensive non polar BG which I don't - I have there  Nichikon MUSE non polar ones.
   
  You haven\t asked anything about the PS but I think you have to start there !
   
  That's it for now.
  Cheers


----------



## HiFi-Rookie

Quote: 





niamex said:


> As soon as we work in close cooperation with Robert I will post my modest opinion which is based on my experience -
> 1. It is so long a story I wouldn't like to go across it again and again - pls read the thread.
> 2.Resistors shoud be audio note or even better shinkoh - tantalum
> 3.Yes, depends on your setup - I prefer c15 - 220 uF Elna Silmic II rfs and the output caps Mundorf Silver in Oil 2,7 uF bypassed with NOS Russian Silver mica 0,01 uF
> ...


 


  Thanks,
  No, I have no questions at all about the Power Supply that's very clear to me! (I'm not really a HiFi-Rookie, I only choose that name because I'm a Rookie on this forum 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  I only asked some questions because in this whole modify story, caps are changing several times, they go in and out, and at least I missed the final modified configuration a little.


----------



## HiFi-Rookie

Quote: 





fathead said:


> If you take the time and read the thread all your questions will be answered with either pics or words.
> 
> Slow down and read, these mods took months to come up with, you can at least spend a couple of days reading.


 

 Thank you Mister fathead, for your interest.
   
  I really believe that you want to tell me something, but you are telling me something that I already know, otherwise I didn't posts my questions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Sorry for my answer to you, but I'm only interested in helpful comments.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,

 The transformer arrived today!!! I'll let you know how the upgrade goes.
   
  Lionel
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Locally in the electronic spare parts shop.


----------



## robeeert1

Be careful. I'm looking forward to your impressions.
   
  If you like to have a better bass which should be tighter and faster after trans upgrade, I'll tell you which cap else to replace.
   
  Check exactly the voltages and do not mix up the connectors! (9-0-9 and 15-0-15)
   

  
  Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> The transformer arrived today!!! I'll let you know how the upgrade goes.
> 
> Lionel


----------



## LionelH2

Go ahead and give me the cap info so I can get it on order. Thanks. 
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Be careful. I'm looking forward to your impressions.
> 
> If you like to have a better bass which should be tighter and faster after trans upgrade, I'll tell you which cap else to replace.
> 
> Check exactly the voltages and do not mix up the connectors! (9-0-9 and 15-0-15)


----------



## robeeert1

Upgrade the trans first, take your time and check the sound, maybe it's no need to do it.
   
  Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Go ahead and give me the cap info so I can get it on order. Thanks.


----------



## LionelH2

Agreed. I'll let you know how it works out. 
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Upgrade the trans first, take your time and check the sound, maybe it's no need to do it.


----------



## LionelH2

Ok, I'll let you know how it works out. 
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Upgrade the trans first, take your time and check the sound, maybe it's no need to do it.


----------



## robeeert1

Fathead,
  Congratulations, R-Core is superior to toroid. It is normal the sound quality improves when we feed the DAC with better quality current.
  When you replace power filtering caps with better ones, you'll hear further
  improvement. Good Luck.


----------



## LionelH2

Still waiting for my connectors to arrive, looking forward to the improvements. 
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Fathead,
> Congratulations, R-Core is superior to toroid. It is normal the sound quality improves when we feed the DAC with better quality current.
> When you replace power filtering caps with better ones, you'll hear further
> improvement. Good Luck.


----------



## sridhar3

Has anybody tried tweaking a balanced Havana?


----------



## calloyaddy

Just a quick note comparing the SE and balanced Havanas (and break from all the tweaker noise : ))
   
  I was looking for info on here about the differences between the SE and the balanced version of the Havana and in the end ordered the balanced version blind from Aphroditecu39 then AB'ed the two outputs. Here's what I found: in this case, balanced is better. I'm using a Primare A30.1, which is truly a balanced mono design, with Audioquest King Cobra in both applications (SE and balanced), so YMMV depending on your amp/integrated and cables, but here the balanced Havana is far quieter than the SE. The background is significantly blacker, the overall image is fuller, clearer, and without grainI by no means would have thought much of the difference if I hadn't heard it. Anyways, I'm impressed and I wasn't really prepared to be. I'd thought of it as a harmless experiment, thinking if the difference was negligible I'd just sell the balanced version and keep my SE Havana. But I'm keeping the balanced version. The difference in the end is significant enough to me to warrant the extra cost.  Anyone else have any experience with the Balanced yet? Just curious what others' experiences have been like.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





calloyaddy said:


> Just a quick note comparing the SE and balanced Havanas (and break from all the tweaker noise : ))
> 
> I was looking for info on here about the differences between the SE and the balanced version of the Havana and in the end ordered the balanced version blind from Aphroditecu39 then AB'ed the two outputs. Here's what I found: in this case, balanced is better. I'm using a Primare A30.1, which is truly a balanced mono design, with Audioquest King Cobra in both applications (SE and balanced), so YMMV depending on your amp/integrated and cables, but here the balanced Havana is far quieter than the SE. The background is significantly blacker, the overall image is fuller, clearer, and without grainI by no means would have thought much of the difference if I hadn't heard it. Anyways, I'm impressed and I wasn't really prepared to be. I'd thought of it as a harmless experiment, thinking if the difference was negligible I'd just sell the balanced version and keep my SE Havana. But I'm keeping the balanced version. The difference in the end is significant enough to me to warrant the extra cost.  Anyone else have any experience with the Balanced yet? Just curious what others' experiences have been like.


 

 In my personal opinion the balanced Havana should sound a little better that SE, it has better chips "J" not "L" grade, different construction.
  But it is still made of cheap components (cheapest in the market).
  I'm sure the sound change doesn't justify the price difference.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> The balanced version also used a Silver Mica Cap, were as the SE version does not.
> 
> That alone is enough to increase fidelity.
> 
> ...


 
  They could offer the only PCB and chassis - nothing else.
  You're right, one silver mica is enough to change the sound significantly especially the one you changed.
   
  They could disclose the schematic, I do not really understand what they are affraid of, copying the Havana is not any problem without it.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Okay, the ELNA Silmic II caps came today for the power supply.
> 
> Got them in without a hitch. I will let them burn in over night but so far...oh the clarity...
> 
> ...


 

 Fathead,
  Replace six resistors around the tube socket - you'll feel much better, great improvement.....
  step by step..., the fidelity increase. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You have so many components to uprade left and so much fun before you.
   
  Purchase shinkoh tantalum resistors - they are better.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Okay, the ELNA Silmic II caps came today for the power supply.
> 
> Got them in without a hitch. I will let them burn in over night but so far...oh the clarity...
> 
> ...


 

 Rush for these - very good price - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290638727086&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:1123
  Cheers


----------



## SteveM324

Several months ago there was a lot of discussion in this thread about PCM56P-K chips and where they were manufactured being a big factor in their sound quality.  Well I ordered a couple K grade chips from a seller on E-bay that were supposedly made in Japan.  I say supposedly because who knows if these are authentic or not.  About 3 weeks ago, I received the chips and installed them in my already modded Havana. One chip turned out to be DOA, no sound in the right channel, so I switched it around in the Havana and then no sound came out of the left channel.  So I'm getting a replacement from the seller on e-bay.  In the mean time, I ordered a couple of PCM56P- K chips from Arrow Electronics for $13 per chip knowing that they are not made in Japan but they are cheap so what the heck.  These chips are made in Malaysia and I put them in my Havana a little over a week ago.  Well the Malaysian chips sound fantastic and they are a big improvement over the stock L chips.  Before the chip upgrade, my modded Havana sounded very good but not quite competitive with my PWD or my W4S DAC2.  After the chip upgrade, the Havana is much improved and very competitive with my other 2 DACs.  My Havana is actually better in some ways than the PWD or DAC2.  I need to get more listening time with all 3 to be able to say definitively which sounds best.  This chip upgrade was very easy to do with the Radio Shack chip extractor and installation tool for someone that hasn't replaced chips before.  This was a cheap and excellent upgrade and I highly recommend it.  Also, the chips need atleast 50-100 hrs of burn-in to start sounding their best.  After burn-in this is a wonderful upgrade.  The made in Japan chips may be better but the Malaysian chips are a huge upgrade over the stock chips and they are so cheap that I ordered some back ups.


----------



## SteveM324

Quote: 





fathead said:


> I have some chips made in Malaysia as well from Arrow. And like yourself ordered some from ebay that were supposed to be made in Japan. I am pretty sure the ebay chips are not real. In Fact I sent a few emails to Juin of Mdht and even he got ripped off by the fake Chinese chips
> 
> *"There are too many fake PCM56P chips out of the market now.  We been cheated once from Chinese vender, it was marked as PCM56PK but a sub J, that was a real chip but remarked by someone or something from China."*
> 
> ...


 

 For $26, I'll take 90% and save myself time and money.  I'm using the my PS Audio PWT as my source for the Havana and it sounds very very nice.  The Havana sounds great with either my Liquid Fire or my Luxman SQ-N100 amps and the LCD3.


----------



## robeeert1

All productions of "K" grade chips are super sounding and uncomparably better than the stock 'L" grade ones but after extreme Havana's mods, the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears.
  (the most musical and natural of them all)
  If you can say Malaysian "K" chips are 90% Japanese "K" 100%, then the Korean "K" I can say are 110% )))))


----------



## SteveM324

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> All productions of "K" grade chips are super sounding and uncomparably better than the stock 'L" grade ones but after extreme Havana's mods, the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears.
> (the most musical and natural of them all)
> If you can say Malaysian "K" chips are 90% Japanese "K" 100%, then the Korean "K" I can say are 110% )))))


 

 Maybe for your mods, your system, and your tastes, but you can't say that in general because your system (including ears and brain) are different than mine and everyone else's.  But if it makes you happy to think that, go right ahead.


----------



## robeeert1

stevem324,
  Read my post thoroughly. I wrote "  the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears"
  TO MY EARS !
  You may prefer "L"  to "K" and you have the right for it.
   
  I suppose you did not compare Japanese with Korean, you know nothing about the differences.


----------



## SteveM324

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> stevem324,
> Read my post thoroughly. I wrote "  the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears"
> TO MY EARS !
> You may prefer "L"  to "K" and you have the right for it.
> ...


 
  robeeert1,
  Until you can provide data showing that the Korean chips are the best, it is just your opinion.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> robeeert1,
> Until you can provide data showing that the Korean chips are the best, it is just your opinion.


 

 Yes, it is just my opinion only, I base it on my experience, not on guessing like you do.
   
  I do not have to provide or prove you anything.


----------



## SteveM324

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Yes, it is just my opinion only, I base it on my experience, not on guessing like you do.
> 
> I do not have to provide or prove you anything.


 


 Read my post.  I did not make any stupid claims putting percentages (that was Fathead) or claims of my chip is better than yours.  I just said that my chip upgrade is a big improvement over the stock chip.  I made the post only help others here to let them know of a cheap and readily available upgrade.  They need not seek out chips that are difficult to find such as the made in Japan chip to get a big improvement.


----------



## robeeert1

Steve,
   
  MHDT put in the Havana trashes, I do not know any of the CD players or dacs that use 'L" grade chips.
  The Havana is made of the cheapest components possible.
  Replace anything, you'll get a better sound. -


----------



## HiFi-Rookie

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Steve,
> 
> MHDT put in the Havana trashes, I do not know any of the CD players or dacs that use 'L" grade chips.
> The Havana is made of the cheapest components possible.
> Replace anything, you'll get a better sound. -


 

 Yes, the Havana "sounds better"  that's the only thing I hear, nobody tells us what's happening with the sound when you do this or this is happening with the sound when you do that. Or after my modification the Havana sounds more this or that, better/deeper/faster bass, mids or highs, better soundstage, deeper or wider, more or less open, more natural or whatever.
   
  My God, what's the simple expression "sounds better"


----------



## LionelH2

PM me with where you found these. 
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> All productions of "K" grade chips are super sounding and uncomparably better than the stock 'L" grade ones but after extreme Havana's mods, the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears.
> (the most musical and natural of them all)
> If you can say Malaysian "K" chips are 90% Japanese "K" 100%, then the Korean "K" I can say are 110% )))))


----------



## calloyaddy

Quote: 





calloyaddy said:


> Just a quick note comparing the SE and balanced Havanas (and break from all the tweaker noise : ))
> 
> I was looking for info on here about the differences between the SE and the balanced version of the Havana and in the end ordered the balanced version blind from Aphroditecu39 then AB'ed the two outputs. Here's what I found: in this case, balanced is better. I'm using a Primare A30.1, which is truly a balanced mono design, with Audioquest King Cobra in both applications (SE and balanced), so YMMV depending on your amp/integrated and cables, but here the balanced Havana is far quieter than the SE. The background is significantly blacker, the overall image is fuller, clearer, and without grainI by no means would have thought much of the difference if I hadn't heard it. Anyways, I'm impressed and I wasn't really prepared to be. I'd thought of it as a harmless experiment, thinking if the difference was negligible I'd just sell the balanced version and keep my SE Havana. But I'm keeping the balanced version. The difference in the end is significant enough to me to warrant the extra cost.  Anyone else have any experience with the Balanced yet? Just curious what others' experiences have been like.


 

 I think my above review is a bit misleading. I was comparing the RCA outs of the Balanced Version with the XLR out of the same unit, not one SE unit and a balanced. The differences I heard came from the same unit for what it's worth. It might simply mean I have a lot of noise in my AC line. Who knows. Just saying too, if you're not into DIY that the unit still represents a real value to these ears. Not at all disputing that it can't be made better via parts upgrades, as can most consumer-grade products.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> All productions of "K" grade chips are super sounding and uncomparably better than the stock 'L" grade ones but after extreme Havana's mods, the chips made in Korea are the best to my ears.
> (the most musical and natural of them all)
> If you can say Malaysian "K" chips are 90% Japanese "K" 100%, then the Korean "K" I can say are 110% )))))


 

 Robert, I agree with You, but how much experience do You have with Havana..., might not otherwise! "K" grade Korean chips are really good; and I can only thank You!
   
  On the other hand, after about a hundred hours of running capacitors, I feel a positive change in sound: sound stage has considerably expanded, the level of detail and sound transparency is another, superior texture, high dynamics, rezolution&decay, audio layering is present! It was worth to change the capacitors with ELNA and Auricap!


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Steve,
> 
> MHDT put in the Havana trashes, I do not know any of the CD players or dacs that use 'L" grade chips.
> The Havana is made of the cheapest components possible.
> Replace anything, you'll get a better sound. -


 
  I am sick and tired of this DAC and the attitude of the Chinese " laboratory " keeping in secret the schematics as a military innovation ?!? It means that if you have a problem with the DAC you have to send it to China to be repaired and pay all the transport costs plus the service - clever ! I will not mention the efforts of the enthusiasts trying to upgrade the unit and make it sounds acceptable - that is their problem.
  Concerning the PCM56P story at the beginning the DAC was offered with PCM56P-K chips / you have a look there - http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1208/mhdt_labs_havana.htm   [size=x-small]and you can read this - Jiun-Hsien told me that the *BB PCM56PK* DAC chip would cease production on February 2009. In turn, MHDT has stocked up on this chip to insure a long production run of these units.[/size]- which seems not to be true. In their balanced version they are installing a J grade - which is already much better than L.
  If you take out the components - a handful of caps and resistors etc. and try to evaluate them you see that everything  is 'el cheapo' and hardly reaches 100 USD - so the rest of 788 USD should go for the nice box and the PROFIT. Not funny.
  Just my modest opinion !
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

I entirely agree with Niamex opinion, the schematic is kept secret like military project, used components are the cheapest possible,
  the stock havana sound awful to me, but you have a very nice looking metal case, with silk brushing aluminium and acrylic front panel at least.


----------



## rx79ez08

I am not for or against MDHT, but I think the last two comments are a bit unfair.
  Which electronic/electrical appliances you buy give you the complete schematic in its manual?  Or does MS give you a copy of the source code when you buy a copy of Windows?
  Self repair or modification is always done at a user's skill and risk.  If you don't like it, tough, go and buy something else.
  No company is going to give you the schematic so you can copy their design, what is next do you want the PCB design file as well?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





rx79ez08 said:


> I am not for or against MDHT, but I think the last two comments are a bit unfair.
> Which electronic/electrical appliances you buy give you the complete schematic in its manual?  Or does MS give you a copy of the source code when you buy a copy of Windows?
> Self repair or modification is always done at a user's skill and risk.  If you don't like it, tough, go and buy something else.
> No company is going to give you the schematic so you can copy their design, what is next do you want the PCB design file as well?


 


  The schematic is not necessary for copying the Havana. I can personally do some fakes for you if you want. How many?
  You can find many FAMOUS designs in the internet like audio note, stax and many more.
   
  Like I said before Havana is made of very cheap components, I checked it out replacing almost every part of it with another ALWAYS getting better result..


----------



## rx79ez08

I am not commenting on whether or not the components are cheap. 
 I am commenting on the fact that you expect a company to release its schematic.  Not many company will do that. 
  Design of different products floating around the internet is most likely either from internal repair manual, or reverse enginneer by someone else.
  The design of a product is the IP of a company, it should at least be respected as such.
  A large amount of what you buy in a product is the design and engineering cost, parts are often a small part of it.
  If you don't like it, go and buy something else or modify it, don't whinge about it.


----------



## robeeert1

The Havana uses caps made by MHDT, try to buy the cheapest in the market the same value any of these caps and put it in the Havana.
  Satisfaction guaranteed.


----------



## rx79ez08

Again, go ahead and do it, don't whinge about it.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





rx79ez08 said:


> Again, go ahead and do it, don't whinge about it.


 


  I heard recently that 60% of possitive opinions of any products are posted by people sponsored by companies to increase their sales results.
  I do not suggest anything, but I see you here for the first time.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I heard recently that 60% of possitive opinions of any products are posted by people sponsored by companies to increase their sales results.
> I do not suggest anything, but I see you here for the first time.


 

 Can you provide a source for that number? I'm pretty sure that most of the positive reviews of the Havana are not from people sponsored by them, myself included.


----------



## s1rrah

The first thing the Havana has taught me: Cheap sounds pretty damn good.
   
  The second?: Ignorance is, indeed, bliss.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





rx79ez08 said:


> I am not for or against MDHT, but I think the last two comments are a bit unfair.
> Which electronic/electrical appliances you buy give you the complete schematic in its manual?  Or does MS give you a copy of the source code when you buy a copy of Windows?
> Self repair or modification is always done at a user's skill and risk.  If you don't like it, tough, go and buy something else.
> No company is going to give you the schematic so you can copy their design, what is next do you want the PCB design file as well?


 

 Sorry but I have several products at home of LINN, KENWOOD, HARMAN KARDON and I think these are not comparable with Lilliputs but all of them are providing very profound schematics and manuals. From another side you read on the MHDT website - http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm - [size=medium]No digital filter, no Op-amp ![/size]
  [size=medium]But you check and find they are using the internal opamps of the PCM56P chips - so how do you call this ?  [/size][size=12.0pt]In one review in the  The Audio Critic magazine [/size] Mr.David Rich says - To see high-feedback integrated op-amps used in an expensive unit is equivalent to finding a rabbi eating a bacon cheeseburger.  Please think about it,
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> From another side you read on the MHDT website - http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm - [size=medium]No digital filter, no Op-amp ![/size]
> [size=medium]But you check and find they are using the internal opamps of the PCM56P chips - so how do you call this ?[/size]


 

 I would call this a fraud, my friends.


----------



## mafaldich

Agreed. I cannot see why a firm is obligated to disclose the schematic. You paid for the product, not the schematic. There is nothing wrong with MHDT.

  
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> Oh-well.
> 
> Don't forget the first rule "GOAL" of any business.  Do I need to say it?  To make a profit.
> 
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mafaldich said:


> Agreed. I cannot see why a firm is obligated to disclose the schematic. You paid for the product, not the schematic. There is nothing wrong with MHDT.


 

  
  MHDT advertised their Havana was not using OPAMPS that's why I had purchased it.
I was deceived and now I'm demanding the schematic to remove low quality internal OPMAPs out of the circuit.
  I spent much money for the DAC itself and upgrade, I can confess it sounds great now (after deep surgery), but
  it would sound much better without the OPAMPS.
   
   
So Dear MHDT, do not cheat us any more about your non-opamp brilliant constructions and disclose the schematic so we could
clean up this constructional mess.
   
   
  If I had known tha Havana used internal OPAMPS, I would have never even considered it to buy.. !!!!


----------



## rx79ez08

Ah, sorry to burst your bubble.  The so call "op-amp" is part of the DAC chip used, it is the output buffer stage of the PCM56P chip.  What do you think an active output buffer stage is?


----------



## robeeert1

I know what active stage buffer is. I'm not so stupid as you think.
  PCM56P chip has two kinds of outputs, one "Iout" - 13th leg the other "Vout" - 9th leg, you should take signal from Iout (as you advertised non-opmap construction) and use tube to convert it to Vout.
  There is nothing wrong with using internal low quality opmaps , but do not cheat people that Havana has no opamp.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> The first thing the Havana has taught me: Cheap sounds pretty damn good.
> 
> The second?: Ignorance is, indeed, bliss.


 

 Totally agree


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I spent much money for the DAC itself and upgrade, I can confess it sounds great now (after deep surgery), but
> it would sound much better without the OPAMPS.
> 
> If I had known tha Havana used internal OPAMPS, I would have never even considered it to buy.. !!!!


 

 Robert,
  I bought Havana second (but very care), I think for 750 dollars and I made upgrades about 750 dollars... With every upgrade I felt an improvement in sound and obviously I enjoyed very much! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   Although a respectable friend gave me different suggestions (told me that in this price category -  about 1.500 $ can I find other offers, with a high quality, also! but probably, referring to "OS" category dac's... Because I started to hate resale hi-fi components, I had enough in the past five years,... I decided to keep Havana and inspired in this thread, I made some changes step by step. After all, I think it was more comfortable to buy another dac; I was not forced to change anything, because of cheap components and mediocre quality.
 Now I would change further some things, such as resistors (S. Tantalum), Non-polar Blackgate capacitors (47uF), R-Core transformer, another tube, etc.,  but unfortunately, I have other financial priorities, and I think pretty much as we changed...
   
  I think our sin is that we allowed to make Havana other than exist the manufacturing!; and we must bear sole responsibility for our decisions, although is not very easy...I wasn't forced to do this and I did it over with great pleasure!
    
  Now I can only think and pray : Christmas, beyond all these passions, I was a good boy, ... please give us the most beautiful gifts that you own (if you're generous and good heart will understand what I mean). 
   Yours faithfully,


----------



## mafaldich

So basically you demand mhdt to turn in the schematics because you were tricked into buying havana . I think I understand the logic now. Well...good luck.
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> MHDT advertised their Havana was not using OPAMPS that's why I had purchased it.
> I was deceived and now I'm demanding the schematic to remove low quality internal OPMAPs out of the circuit.
> I spent much money for the DAC itself and upgrade, I can confess it sounds great now (after deep surgery), but
> it would sound much better without the OPAMPS.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mafaldich said:


> So basically you demand mhdt to turn in the schematics because you were tricked into buying havana . I think I understand the logic now. Well...good luck.


 
   
  Let the MHDT choke with the schematic, we have already managed to get rid of the shiiitty opmaps without it.
  I work on another project based on TDA1541A crown chip. There will be new ultimate quality DAC,
  with analogue section based on tubes, not tricks.


----------



## nsk1

$750 in upgrades to Havana? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're f... killing me.


----------



## rx79ez08

You know what is funny.  I look at the datasheet of TDA1541A and there are two internal op amps at the output stages, one at each channel......
  I still don't get what the big deal is, the DAC chip got an output opamp buffer, big deal, the overall product sound good, that is all that matter isn't it?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





rx79ez08 said:


> You know what is funny.  I look at the datasheet of TDA1541A and there are two internal op amps at the output stages, one at each channel......
> I still don't get what the big deal is, the DAC chip got an output opamp buffer, big deal, the overall product sound good, that is all that matter isn't it?


 

  
   
 
   
  It's very simple to omit internal op-amps. ))
  (some chips have only current outputs - no internal op-amps, and some of them have both current and voltage outputs - then you may choose to use internal or external op-map)
   
  And you are using op-amps and tubes in one circuit. Tubes for a good look and taste only.


----------



## robeeert1

It is not a big deal, overall product sounds good,
   
  Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all users of the Havana.
   
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> If the opamp is supplying of amplification would the gain be the same with or without the tube in place?
> 
> For example with the Paradisea I think you can run it without the tube with no problems with gain, same with the EE minimax Dac. In those cases it appears that the opamp is supplying the gain.
> 
> However in the Havana if you don't have a tube in place the gain is almost nothing.


 
   
   
  Tubes should be used for amplification of a weak current.
   
  In both cases (Paradisea and Havana) the op-amps are supplying the amplification and the gain is the same with or without the tube.
  Tubes are used for changing the characteristic of the sound in both cases, they simply spoil it.
   
  <<<However in the Havana if you don't have a tube in place the gain is almost nothing.
   
  No, you're wrong, the gain is the same with or without the tube in place. The op-amp does the work.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





nsk1 said:


> $750 in upgrades to Havana?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Definitely worth it, because differences in sound between the stock Havana  and Havana modded are substantial! Otherwise I could not bear to hear him so "anemic". Agreed, at vocal timbre level, texture, refinement, Havana doesn't sound bad either before, but at the level of focus, speed, dynamic, detail,  etc., differences are very important.
 If adding all these a good digital signal, and Legato do this very well, sound huge increase in terms of transparency, stage presence, separation between instruments, decay and audio layering. Other financial fun...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Overall satisfaction is guaranteed!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Robeeert
> 
> My Havana most definitely has no gain when I take the tube out.  The first time I did it by mistake and wondered why hardly no sound. I did it on purpose a second time just for kicks and right before I typed this I did it a third time.  My Havana is feeding my amp directly with a passive volume control between the two. There is no mistake, when I take the tube out their is NO gain.
> This is not a case of perception.


 
  There is no gain because you brake the circuit, itt is normal.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Does that $750 include the cost of labor or only parts?
> 
> I am guessing that it is parts + labor, because I am only at $220 or so and another $120 should be enough to finish the job with replacing all the caps in the unit.
> 
> The biggest expense was the V-Caps, which could have been avoided had I done some smart shopping.  I recently heard a Havana with Sonicaps Gen I and it was fantastic, seemed like even more extension and separation during heavy passages. The details of instruments really stood out during complex passages.


 

 Only parts, fathead: 2 x V-Cap OIMP, Auricap (Audience) Film capacitors, ELNA electrolytic capacitors , HI-Fi Tuning Fuse, WE 396A(JW) tube, tube damper (from EAT), 2 x chips PCM-56P "K" grade, 2 conectors (WBT pure silver), bnc conector, diodes,...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Labor: advantage of a very good friend electronics.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Lionel,
> Jumpers are to set the voltage (230V or 115V) on the stock transformer. In the case of R-Core in our circuit they are not needed, (omitted), you can leave them where they are or remove completely. (I suggest to remove).
> 
> Great sound improvement is obvious.
> ...


 
   
  Robert,
  Please elaborate a little, how the sound improves by changing the transformer? What changes actually received? Thank's!


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
   
  I heard definitely even better timbre and more natural sound. Absolutely no overshoot or ringing when trumpets hit or when soprano kicks into high gear.
  I replaced one cap yet then and received reference bass (replaced Nichicon with BG F series 100uf25V - the one marked on photo). I remember I adored the change.
  I know there are some people on this forum who replaced the transformer as well. Let's wait until someone else share his impressions.
   
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

According to Jiun cap improving the bass response was the one next to C5, I left it with original value 47uF and changed it for BG FK (super welcome change).
  And marked on photo was originally 100uF and stayed 100uF but changed only for BG F series. (you can really feel reference bass response after that change)


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> The cap just above the one you pointed out IS the only cap next to C5 and has a original value of 47uf....correct?


 
   
  The one above I pointed out (the only one next to c5) is originally 47uF, pointed out one is originally 100uF.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> according to Juin.  In short they both should be 100uf.


 
   
  Try both values, the sound will differ, and choose the right for you.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,
   
  With the holiday here, I am just now getting to the transformer upgrade. 
   
  By the way, did you upgrade the RCA audio connectors to WBT? If so, can you help me with the correct WBT part number?  
   
  Lionel
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Try both values, the sound will differ, and choose the right for you.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> With the holiday here, I am just now getting to the transformer upgrade.
> 
> ...


 

 If I understand your question, I replaced the RCA connectors with WBT Ag (Ms - metal nut), "Next Gen" Pure Silver, female jack. Are the best, but quite expensive.
  Their impact is evident in sound, especially in terms of coherence and separation between channels. From what I remember, is affected positively the detail and transparency, also.
   
  But have to buy and silver wire. For example, I choose White silver hook-up wire, by DH LABS (product code, 63006). Is very good!
   
  http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_dhlabs.html
   

   
  http://www.wbtusa.com/pages/0210ags.html


----------



## robeeert1

Lionel,
   
  Loserica uses the best WBT solid silver (WBT-0210 Ag), they are expensive as mentioned, but you should hear more. (better transparancy)
  I intend to purchase them in the nearest future.


----------



## LionelH2

Thanks, guys. You guys are incredible. 

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Lionel,
> 
> Loserica uses the best WBT solid silver (WBT-0210 Ag), they are expensive as mentioned, but you should hear more. (better transparancy)
> I intend to purchase them in the nearest future.


----------



## calloyaddy

Would love to see someone start going after a balanced version. I have to admit, while I love the sound of mine, I'm wondering what's replaceable too in terms of its topology (damn this thread). Here's what I'm thinking (but I'd love some confirmation from someone who might actually know the circuit better):
   
  new tubes
  new output caps
  new ps caps to replace Nichicon
  new trans (is the trans in the balanced version any different from the SE?)
   
  What else? I'm not about to go whole hog and get down to resistors . . .


----------



## ZenFire

Hi All, and thanks for all the info, have read every thread from the beginning and compiled a list of everything from a-z, and will post here in a few days in the way of thanks, and for your edits to consistency.
   
  My questions: where do I source the R-Core transformer, where do I source original DAC Japan chips besides old stereos, and where do I source tubes cheaper than some of the referenced depots that seem quite pricey?
   
  Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post.
   
  Also, is there one of you that would consider doing the R-Core replacement for me? Or recommend how to find a local electronics shop to do it for me?  I think I can handle most of the caps, etc in solder and such.
   
  My Havana already has oil caps, and some tubes to roll.
   
  Cheers, Z


----------



## calloyaddy

I believe this is the R-core robeert1 and others have used, but they'd have to confirm. Ratings/specs are the same and the picture looks familiar:
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/320680108067?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





calloyaddy said:


> I believe this is the R-core robeert1 and others have used, but they'd have to confirm. Ratings/specs are the same and the picture looks familiar:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/320680108067?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


 


  I confirm, I purchased the r-core from this seller. Due to not serious MHDT's attitude to their clients, I do not have access for the schematics and I can't tell you which r-core transformer will be appropriate for the balanced Havana until I have the DAC in the place.


----------



## ZenFire

Thanks folks.  There are so many versions I didn't want to get it wrong.  I understand this is rather dangerous to change, and I have all of your notes.  I haven't soldered for 30+ years, when I repaired a couple car stereos, yet I am pretty steady, and can follow directions.  Do you recommend I do all the mods, including the R-Core myself, or find a shop?  And can you give me an idea what the more dangerous aspects of fiddling in there are?  As in what will kill me or zap me pretty good if I do the wrong thing? 
   
  Cheers!  And Happy New Year.  Z


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Due to not serious MHDT's attitude to their clients, I do not have access for the schematics and I can't tell you which r-core transformer will be appropriate for the balanced Havana until I have the DAC in the place.


 

 I think you guys rock for making all the so far mentioned changes to the MHDT Havana DAC. Really, it's inspiring and has very nearly gotten me to purchase some soldering gear (perhaps in time).
   
  But that said...
   
  I also think it's _COMPLETELY IDIOTIC_ for Random User(tm) to repeatedly condemn any sort of successful designer (much less audio circuit designers) for not sharing an exact blue print of his/her (again) very successful and profitable designs.
   
  Is the Coca Cola company crapping on it's clients for not printing the recipe for Coca Cola on it's bottles or providing it to the random inquirer or otherwise who might like to try their hand at making their own drink or in some way bettering the original?
   
  Is the Intel corporation crapping on it's clients or presenting a bad attitude to it's users for choosing not to share the exact details of their nano-processing facilities or the exact design of it's circuitry to those who might like to try their hand at improving the design of the Intel Core i7 CPU?
   
  Both random and off-the-cuff examples but in each case I think the answer should be, "No. I think not."
   
  So (referencing the above quoted text) why IN THE WORLD would you claim that the MHDT design team is exhibiting a "bad attitude" by refusing to supply an exact schematic of their very successful and pretty much _universally_ lauded Havana DAC to you Robeert1 or any other random hack/user.
   
  It makes no sense and it absolutely raises my ire to hear it.
   
  Sheez, man...I say good on them for refusing you!  I wouldn't share it with you either!
   
  Not because I don't like you; and, not because I don't appreciate your (admittedly) respectable efforts but, much to the contrary, because I'm a designer myself (visual/software interface) and I also run a business...and no. Sorry. You cannot borrow my exact designs to use in your own efforts, personal, professional or otherwise...either to replicate said designs exactly or to somehow seek to better my design. I can help you learn to design. I can provide all sorts of tips regarding the ins and outs of the visual design process, I can inspire you possibly...but no way am I going to give you an _exact blue print or, perhaps more importantly, free license to use said blue print (schematic) at your leisure_. I designed it. I'm proud of it. It's _my_ *work*. It was a personal effort and something I spent a great deal of time developing; I am connected with it in a personal, professional and perhaps even spiritual way ... so regarding your request for the Whole Enchilada(tm) as they say?  
   
  I would say, "Eat me. It's mine. It's made me a crap ton of money and no way am I going to just throw it out to the random requester."
   
  MHDT Labs (Juin and others) have been BEYOND generous in dealing with me over the years: loaning me DACs for review, loaning our Houston Head-fi user group DACs for use at multiple local meets...lightly discussing many of the unpublished aspects of their various gear and being _more_ than reasonable in working with me (and others I know on payment and pricing).  
   
  You should be grateful that MHDT (as you've mentioned in the past) has been cordial enough to field some of your previous questions regarding mods and what not. They didn't have to do that either, you know.
   
  Shoosh!  The nerve.
   
  [/end rant]
   
  ...
   
  Now.
   
  That said.
   
  I hope you keep inspiring us (all of you). I think what you guys are doing with the Havana is super freakin' awesome.
   
  Yours in proud design standards,
  .joel


----------



## eantala

I was wanting to upgrade my dac from HRT Stream 2+ so I picked up a Havana that should be coming in tomorrow.
  In anticipation I ordered 2 "K" level dacs(PCM56P-K) from Arrow which is an authorized seller for TI(who bought burr brown).
   
  My question is why were the MHDT folks saying this chip was discontinued in Jan of 2009 in a review?
  seems its still in production and you can buy from authorized sellers like Arrow, Newar or Mouser.
  Did they do it just so they could start putting in L or J chips in dacs?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





eantala said:


> I was wanting to upgrade my dac from HRT Stream 2+ so I picked up a Havana that should be coming in tomorrow.
> In anticipation I ordered 2 "K" level dacs(PCM56P-K) from Arrow which is an authorized seller for TI(who bought burr brown).
> 
> My question is why were the MHDT folks saying this chip was discontinued in Jan of 2009 in a review?
> ...


 
  I do not really know what pushed MHDT using the lowest possible quality DACs (L grade) in their products.
  I suppose they were the cheapest like all the rest of the components of the Havana is made of.
   
  I know Sirrah that cheap can sound pretty damn good.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> But that said...
> ....


 

 Totally agree again Joel, and great post.
  Really, I can't see the point of asking again for the schematics of the Havana. When you buy a product you agree to company terms, which DOES NOT include the schematics for it.
   
  There's a plethora of open designs: you can get one of them, modify it, upgrade it...but the Havana is NOT an open design. And they don't claim it either.
   
  The Coke example is perfect: you can't blame them because they are using cheap ingredients or because they don't want to share them with you...that's just childish, sorry.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Totally agree again Joel, and great post.
> Really, I can't see the point of asking again for the schematics of the Havana. When you buy a product you agree to company terms, which DOES NOT include the schematics for it.
> 
> There's a plethora of open designs: you can get one of them, modify it, upgrade it...but the Havana is NOT an open design. And they don't claim it either.
> ...


 
   
  Let's make it all clear.
  We do not need the schematic of the Havana any more. We have already managed to get rid of the shiit quality built-in op-amp out of the circuit and
  we all respect the rights for private "brilliant MHDT's no op-amp constructions",
  I'm just being objective, nothing else.


----------



## s1rrah

ote: 





fathead said:


> Well gang,
> 
> At this point I have already upgraded a lot in my Havana and have 90% of the remaining parts on the way. I have information about the voltage regulators so I can feel confident in upgrading those as well.
> 
> ...


 


 uote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Let's make it all clear.
> We do not need the schematic of the Havana any more. We have already managed to get rid of the shiit quality built-in op-amp out of the circuit and
> we all respect the rights for private "brilliant MHDT's no op-amp constructions",
> I'm just being objective, nothing else.


 


  Robeert1: it is not a public design. You should spend three months (minimim) flailing yourself afor thinking that MHDT should send you the truth of their designs.
   
  You have things to learn. Obviously.
   
  So wait in line like the rest of us.
   
  And your "shiit quality" comment is really sad. (I even want to sympathize with you cause your so off base) (really, I don't know what happened with you but I have time to hear about it).
   
  I'll type more once I'm free to type such and once I think it's worth typing.
   
  Otherwise? Till then?
   
  I digress.
   
  A sad designer is trying to place his sadness upon the rest of us...
   
  Bless.
   
  .joel


----------



## robeeert1

Sirrah,

 We are the clients of MHDT, we buy their products, we let them exist however,
 without our support MHDT is gone,  worth nothing along with their designs.
 We don't have to stay in line and wait, we'll just stop buying their products.

 >> You have things to learn. Obviously.

 Man learns all his life,  what I have learnt so far is the respect for someone who gives
 you existance.
 We sent them several emails asking about the schematic, did not get ANY answers,
 MHDT neglect us all, so please stop taking their side and stop telling us that we should learn something
 or wait for something in lines we don't even need yet.

 Happy New Year Guys


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Sirrah,
> 
> We are the clients of MHDT, we buy their products, we let them exist however,
> without our support MHDT is gone,  worth nothing along with their designs.
> ...


 


  The line between consumer and producer is defined by: "We are the _clients_ of MHDT".
   
  I agree and it really is as simple as you indicate.
   
  MHDT is a company.
   
  You, on the other hand, are an individual human.
   
  A company, with proven ideas and designs does not owe you any thing.
   
  You should get a pet or something. 
   
  Cause a company does not cater to your whim.
   
  Good luck with that.
   
  .joel


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





fathead said:


> How did I get dragged into this.....


 


  It's a _good _thing to get dragged in to, mate. Count your blessings...


----------



## robeeert1

Joel,
  Once again, MHDT doesn't owe me anything, me and my friends just gently asked them for a schematic, did not get any reply,
  I guessed they were not willing to give it to us for some reasons.
  We do not need it now !
   
  What is all the fuss about?
   
  Cheers,


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Joel,
> Once again, MHDT doesn't owe me anything, me and my friends just gently asked them for a schematic, did not get any reply,
> I guessed they were not willing to give it to us for some reasons.


 

  
  Yes, the reason is THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO.
  I'll tell you how things work with economics and capitalism, it will apply to EU, US, and China as well: customers buy a ready made product, sellers have they profit. Period.
   
  MHDT never claimed their design is open, they have spent time (which means money) designing their DACs, they have the right not to share the schematics with customers.
  It doesn't matter how gently you ask for them, they are not required to give them.
  You bought a PRODUCT, not a PROJECT or the idea behind it.
   
  Happy new year


----------



## robeeert1

Realmassy:
   
  It's a very nice to have well educated people like you on this forum, knowing economy, understanding capitalism's rights etc.
  I would never discover that myself, all I have to do is to thank you for your post.
   
  Quote: 





realmassy said:


> Yes, the reason is THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO.
> I'll tell you how things work with economics and capitalism, it will apply to EU, US, and China as well: customers buy a ready made product, sellers have they profit. Period.
> 
> MHDT never claimed their design is open, they have spent time (which means money) designing their DACs, they have the right not to share the schematics with customers.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Realmaasy: Why did you sell your havana?


----------



## Orangecrush

Thanks to everyone for sharing your mods and enthusiasm. It seems this thread has perhaps lost it way from the reasons why we were attracted to the Havana in the first place. 
   
  So to change pace a bit, I was wondering if some mods sacrifice the natural strengths (musicality, midrange, seductiveness) of the Havana. I want to upgrade some key parts from a quality point of view but still keep the authentic Havana sound. For example, some have changed the .47uf cap next to C5 to a 100uf to get better bass response. Juin even commented on this change. However, there must be a trade-off to this increased bass. What is that trade-off?
   
  Also, I don't understand Juin's explanation 'critical use' for the c5 and c25 caps. Can anyone explain what they do and why they are not needed? Some took them out but found the sound thin. 
   
  My Havana (8 months ago) came stock with the silver mica cap like the new balanced one has and also the j grade Korea chips.
   
  Currenty, I feel the output caps are a safe mod in tweaking the sound. After trying many caps, Scott Faller prefers bypassing original caps with Vitamen Q PIOs. I have decided to go with V-caps 2uf OIMPs but bypass them with .1uf CuFTs. Chris reccomends bypassing OIMPs. That combo will fit (size) nicely in the dac. 
   
  What other key mods would you reccomend to improve the Havana but not take away from the seductive musicality or whatever else that may have attracted you to MHDT's products in the first place?


----------



## robeeert1

Orangecrush,
   
<<I want to upgrade some parts but still keep the Havana sound.
  If you are not prepared for big changes in the sound reproduction don't start tweaking it.
  My advice: safe mod is replacing the tube (bendix or JWWE396a) and chips with "K" grade.
   
<<I have decided to go with V-caps 2uf OIMPs but bypass them with .1uf CuFTs.
  Output caps are not safe mod, I remember that horror when I replaced them with V-caps OIMP.
   
<<<What other key mods would you reccomend to improve the Havana but not take away from the seductive sound/midrange or whatever else that may have attracted you to it in the first place?
  No mods at all.
   
  don't remove c5 unless you start with BG caps or r-core transformer.


----------



## Orangecrush

Thanks Robert. I appreciate your experience with the Havana. I am not surprised by your findings with the OIMP. Several people have reacted the same way even with other gear. Chris strongly recommends the OIMP be used with CuFT or TFTF bypass caps. I have heard this combo in another DIY project of a friend, and the result was magical. That is also why some prefer bypassing the stock Havana cap with Vitamen Q's. Scott Faller likes this much better than the V-caps. However, I think bypassing the OIMP with CuFT's would be a very worthy experiment.


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Realmaasy: Why did you sell your havana?


 


  Because I had the opportunity to try different DACs and I preferred them over the Havana.
  I'm now using a M2Tech Young and I'm trying a Calyx 24/192.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





orangecrush said:


> Thanks Robert. I appreciate your experience with the Havana. I am not surprised by your findings with the OIMP. Several people have reacted the same way even with other gear. Chris strongly recommends the OIMP be used with CuFT or TFTF bypass caps. I have heard this combo in another DIY project of a friend, and the result was magical. That is also why some prefer bypassing the stock Havana cap with Vitamen Q's. Scott Faller likes this much better than the V-caps. However, I think bypassing the OIMP with CuFT's would be a very worthy experiment.


 


  The V-caps OIMP are good caps, better than the stock ones, first of all - I heard better resolution with them, more details, but there was no magic, too bright for me, artificial timbre, maybe used with another configuration they could show the high class.
   
  <<< I think bypassing the OIMP with CuFT's would be a very worthy experiment.
  I think it surely would, try to do it if you can and post your impressions.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The V-caps OIMP are good caps, better than the stock ones, first of all - I heard better resolution with them, more details, but there was no magic, too bright for me, artificial timbre, maybe used with another configuration they could show the high class.
> 
> <<< I think bypassing the OIMP with CuFT's would be a very worthy experiment.
> I think it surely would, try to do it if you can and post your impressions.


 
  Robert, how many hours have been run V-Cap OIMP?, ...because you say that you have noticed an artificial timbre. Naturally not be so... However, I think that Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold are very good capacitors, and I think that in your ears and in your audio-setup, Mundorf are superior in the aspects mentioned! For me it is now demanding to replace OIMP with Supreme...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  But points out once again how important it is changing stock parts in Havana with others qualitatively superior, how important is running completely of capacitors, and last but not least, the quality of digital signal and source! Very, very important.
  How much can be opened Havana in terms of transparency, detail, sound-stage, not to mention the dynamic, resolution, decay or audio-layering! Very nice.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Robert, how many hours have been run V-Cap OIMP?, ...because you say that you have noticed an artificial timbre. Naturally not be so... However, I think that Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold are very good capacitors, and I think that in your ears and in your audio-setup, Mundorf are superior in the aspects mentioned! For me it is now demanding to replace OIMP with Supreme...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Mundorfs S/G are superior to Vcaps OIMP  to my ears, but you may prefer Vcaps, Jensens or another. Your system is quite different and sounds quite different and your preferences may be different.
  I can only say havana needs upgrades to sound excellent, and you decide when to stop.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> I think the Havana is the best toy I have had in a long time.
> 
> Now that I have gotten my feet wet with soldering I want to venture into AudioNote DIY territory.
> 
> I put my Shinkoh's in today, they look pretty neat.


 

 How do they sound? I remember I adored the change.


----------



## eantala

I wish I had some experience soldering.. for now I'm a plug and play guy, I got the JW Western Electric tube and the "K" level dac chips are on the way.
   
  Is the hifi  fuse upgrade worth it?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





eantala said:


> Is the hifi  fuse upgrade worth it?


 

 No, waste of money.


----------



## kkqewl

Just curious what values are those Sinkoh Tantalum replacement resistor values.......... 100 ohm for the 4 on the side of the tube and looks like 290 ohm for the two others ?
   
  I just looked at my stock Havana and I have 4 100 ohm in the same location but my other two are at 25K  !!
   
   
   
   
   
  So far have just switched out the stock tube for a 60's Northern Electric 396A and that was a nice step up in sonics.
   
  Capacitor and power supply mods are next in addition to some resistor changes also


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kkqewl said:


> Just curious what values are those Sinkoh Tantalum replacement resistor values.......... 100 ohm for the 4 on the side of the tube and looks like 290 ohm for the two others ?
> 
> I just looked at my stock Havana and I have 4 100 ohm in the same location but my other two are at 25K  !!


 
   
  you need for the Havana:
  4 x 100R 1W
  2 x 390K 1W


----------



## kkqewl

Thanks for the info but unless I am color blind the coding on those two resistors in the picture is Orange-White-Black-Black-Brown, which would make it 390 ohms not 390K !
  
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> you need for the Havana:
> 4 x 100R 1W
> 2 x 390K 1W


----------



## kkqewl

Any specific reason you used 390 ohms , the stock ones on my unit are 390K ?
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> You are correct they are 390 ohms


----------



## robeeert1

The stock Havana uses 390K, we have code: orange-white-yelow-red which means 3-9-0000 -+2% tolerance = 390.000 ohms = 390K -+2%


----------



## kkqewl

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The stock Havana uses 390K, we have code: orange-white-yelow-red which means 3-9-0000 -+2% tolerance = 390.000 ohms = 390K -+2%


 

 You are correct, but just wondering why "Fathead " changed these to 390 ohms instead of staying with 390K ??


----------



## niamex

Guys, please stop counting the colours - it is no good for you eyes - it is easier to have a look here -

 [size=8.0pt]ID[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Value[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Spec /Grade[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Parts [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R1[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]301R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R3[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K04[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R4[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K04[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R5[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]121R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2W, 1%[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R6[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R7[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R8[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]243R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R9[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]75R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R10[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]270R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1%[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R11[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]5K62[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R12[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R13[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]270R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1%[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R14[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]5K62[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R15[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R16[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]39R2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R17[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2k26[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R18[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R19[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]475K[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R20[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]475K[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R21[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]475K[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R22[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R23[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R24[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]402R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R25[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]33R2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R26[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]33R2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R27[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R28[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R29[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]20K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R30[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]20K0[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R31[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]390K[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R32[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]390K[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R33[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]R34[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]100R[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1W, 1% [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RL[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1K53[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]0.6W, 1%[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]RESISTER[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]H1[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]BRED[/size]
   [size=8.0pt]BRED[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]H2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]BRED[/size]
   [size=8.0pt]BRED[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D1[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D3[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D4[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D5[/size]
 [size=8.0pt] Led Blue[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]3mm[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D6[/size]
 [size=8.0pt] Led Green [/size]
 [size=8.0pt]3mm[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D7[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led Red[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]3mm[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DU[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led Yellow[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]3mm[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Led[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D8[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D9[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D10[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]D11[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2A/800V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]1N5062[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]DIODE[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]C1[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2200U/25V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Fine Gold[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]CAPACITOR[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]C2[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2200U/25V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Fine Gold[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]CAPACITOR[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]C3[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2200U/25V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Fine Gold[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]CAPACITOR[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]C4[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]2200U/25V[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]Fine Gold[/size]
 [size=8.0pt]CAPACITOR[/size]
   

   
   
  Cheers,


----------



## robeeert1

Niamex,
   
  I see you're disclosing MHDT's secrets.)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Now I'm sure some fakes will appear on the market very soon.
   
  cheers,


----------



## ZenFire

Hi again.  How do I remove the op-amp from the Havana?  Also, has anyone tried, or know if it works, the Hazen mod that Steve Deckert uses in his amps?  It modifies the tube socket in a way that they are raving about on the Decware.com forums for amps and other tube gear.  Cheers!  Z


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





zenfire said:


> Hi again.  How do I remove the op-amp from the Havana?  Also, has anyone tried, or know if it works, the Hazen mod that Steve Deckert uses in his amps?  It modifies the tube socket in a way that they are raving about on the Decware.com forums for amps and other tube gear.  Cheers!  Z


 

 Easy, just have a good look at Robert,s posts concerning the PCM56 opamp and you will find out where to start /pin 13/. Will post a brief schematic where to go further.
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Something like that - just principle schematics -
   
  the old one
   

  the new one 
   

   
  Please neglect the other parts and connections - I will send you the real schematics later - not completed yet,
  /All above info is absolutely not a military project as the Havana schematics - you can find in the NET/.
  Cheers


----------



## ZenFire

Thank you!  What is to be gained from removing the opamp?  And is there a need to replace the opamp feature with any other feature? 
   
  By the way of contribution, if you haven't looked into the CCE/Hazen mod described in Decware forums that has to do with connecting an electrical device to 2 pegs on the tube socket, do take a look at it.  I'll ask Steve Deckert tomorrow if it works on the Havana for sure, yet I've seen in posts DIY'ers doing it on other tube equipment and raving about it.  To the point it is now built in to every Decware tube amp since mid 2009.
   
  Cheers!  Z


----------



## ZenFire

One more question, as I thought I could find Robeert's opamp page and I couldn't just now. Do you happen to know what page of this thread it is on?   Is it just a matter of snipping the prong? Or is there more to it?  Rewiring and such...   And what does the DAC gain from removing the opamp?  Thanks so much for walking this rookie through the process.  Cheers! Z


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





zenfire said:


> One more question, as I thought I could find Robeert's opamp page and I couldn't just now. Do you happen to know what page of this thread it is on?   Is it just a matter of snipping the prong? Or is there more to it?  Rewiring and such...   And what does the DAC gain from removing the opamp?  Thanks so much for walking this rookie through the process.  Cheers! Z


 


   


  Quote: 





zenfire said:


> Thank you!  What is to be gained from removing the opamp?  And is there a need to replace the opamp feature with any other feature?
> 
> By the way of contribution, if you haven't looked into the CCE/Hazen mod described in Decware forums that has to do with connecting an electrical device to 2 pegs on the tube socket, do take a look at it.  I'll ask Steve Deckert tomorrow if it works on the Havana for sure, yet I've seen in posts DIY'ers doing it on other tube equipment and raving about it.  To the point it is now built in to every Decware tube amp since mid 2009.
> 
> Cheers!  Z


 
  Thanks ZenFire , I have registered to the Decware forums and will have a look at the topic tomorrow. The gain is you just avoid using the ****ty internal OpAmp and go for a passive I / V conversion which is let's say High End approach / what I know/ Attached please find the Robert's suggestion. Please do not forget you do not just connect the Pin 13 to the tube's grid - there should be added one very high quality resistor from pin 13 to the ground /in my case Z-foil - the best/ - tha value to be defined by tests before ordering 2 pcs /expensive/
  
  Cheers,


----------



## ZenFire

Yay!  Thank you.  I hope the CCE/Hazen Mod works for the Havana, as it would thrill me to see everyone here jump for joy at something that could be better than a tube replacement, more toward the effect of a BB chip change or transformer upgrade.  I look forward to your experience, as I am not a solderer to this point, yet intend to be in 2 weeks when I get back from a trip and can focus in on some of these mods.  Cheers!  Z


----------



## rocky500

I am finding it hard to source some PCM56P-K chips made in Korea.
  Does anyone know where I could order them?
  From the thread it looks like the Malaysia ones are not as good, but would they be better than the original "L" ones?


----------



## ZenFire

Just spoken to Steve Deckert about CCE/Hazen mod on Havana, and he says the mod is for a very specific type of tube/socket, using Svetlana 83, SV83, and all the other tubes that cross reference it, (not the Mullard equivalent, because it has an internal weld, I think, that doesn't gain from the mod).  So therefor not for Havana.  If you have other device using the SV83, etc, it is very worth your while to look into the mod.  Perhaps others here will know if the 2c51 format tubes could gain from a similar idea as the CCE/Hazen mod, as I am not an engineer in any sense of the word.  Cheers! Z


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> I am finding it hard to source some PCM56P-K chips made in Korea.
> Does anyone know where I could order them?
> From the thread it looks like the Malaysia ones are not as good, but would they be better than the original "L" ones?


 

 They have too "engineering" sound -  the Korean L seem more musical
   


  Quote: 





zenfire said:


> Just spoken to Steve Deckert about CCE/Hazen mod on Havana, and he says the mod is for a very specific type of tube/socket, using Svetlana 83, SV83, and all the other tubes that cross reference it, (not the Mullard equivalent, because it has an internal weld, I think, that doesn't gain from the mod).  So therefor not for Havana.  If you have other device using the SV83, etc, it is very worth your while to look into the mod.  Perhaps others here will know if the 2c51 format tubes could gain from a similar idea as the CCE/Hazen mod, as I am not an engineer in any sense of the word.  Cheers! Z


 

 As far as I understood that project works for a penthode - we have a double triode tube ?
   


  Quote: 





fathead said:


> Still something 'like it' should work with other tubed components.
> 
> In principal they work the same don't they??
> 
> ...


 

 That is an example of the completely different approach and mentality ?
  Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Question
> 
> The white .1u/250v caps are +/-5%, would it make sense to replace them with say a "name brand" cap of a higher tolerance say like 10%?
> 
> ...


 

 The cap choice is more important than tolerance. I'm sure Auricaps are much better quality than the stock ones.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The cap choice is more important than tolerance. I'm sure Auricaps are much better quality than the stock ones.


 
  Yes, Robert. Auricap are superior quality from stock capacitors! Already we know that every brand component has a higher quality.. But everyone will be able to appreciate with their own ears, which is the best value for money, and if he is willing to do this financial effort.
   
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> Question
> 
> The white .1u/250v caps are +/-5%, would it make sense to replace them with say a "name brand" cap of a higher tolerance say like 10%?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I use Auricap about two months. I noticed some things: primarily an extension of the sound right and left ear, not so deep as in width! And this is great, because the effect of soundstage, spatial sound exposure, become more obvious. We know that Havana is capable a three-dimensional sound presentation. Now it becomes more evident.
  (In other news, I noticed that the effect of depth of sound - audio layering is decisive contribution of source and transport. So I pointed out several times that Legato make a very good job as transport: very perceptible audio layering, relaxed and coherent sound). 
  Auricap capacitors are very good to play midrange: natural and textured voice. Fine details and the transparency of sound widened considerably after about a hundred hours of running of Elna and Auricap capacitors. Compared to the stock capacitors, I would say the sound has improved considerably in all sections. A good work!


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Question
> 
> The white .1u/250v caps are +/-5%, would it make sense to replace them with say a "name brand" cap of a higher tolerance say like 10%?
> 
> ...


 

 I think I will come with some ideas end of next week, these are bypassing the electrolytic caps at each power supply point of the receiver and dacs - not so easy to decide their type and value - my opinion,
  Cheers


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Well here is the damage...still waiting on the correct resistors to come in...
> 
> In the mean time I can finish replacing the electrolytic caps with Elna


 

 @Fathead,
  Jupiter caps looks great! Exterior finish are impeccable, I think that sounds good.
  ELNA electrolytic capacitors are clearly better than Nichicon. I think it's worth changing all Nichicon capacitors, surely. It's a very good upgrade!
  Auricap do their work in my setup. Although not cheap, I am very pleased with them.
   
  Now, here it comes and matching of the capacitors! I was scared a bit when I changed Nichicon and film-stock capacitors,  that might I don't like the new sound. I liked the sound very much! Between Elna and Auricap capacitors there is a good match. Otherwise I would explain this coherent, rich in texture and musical sound (and very natural and at the same time).
   
  I wait to receive these days the six Shinkoh resistors (near the tube) and I will change as soon as possible the cap at C17 with Russian Silver Mica. Last time I did this omission...
  I'm not obsessed too much to change the transformer with R-Core, becouse I use already a current filter and that feeling of "black-background" is present. However is one of the cheapest modifications.
   
  Here appear last changes:
   

   
  I wish you success and I am very curious to hear impressions after finishing the changes. I hope you do well!


----------



## mako44

Hi all,
   
  I'm new here but follow this topic with care for two years when I bought my Havana Dac. I just changed my amp and speakers for quite expensive ones and would like to improve also my source but as I'm a bit short in money now I hesitate between upgrading my havana dac or buy a new one.
   
  I'm tempted in trying the tweak experience and so I read all your discussions with care but wonder how high you rate your modified havana now ? I know it is a major improve regarding all your comments but do you think it can compete with big/expensive cd players or dacs ? Did you have the opportunity to compare it with better sources ?
   
  If I ask it's because before starting anything I want to be sure the result worths the money & time instead of spending this in another dac that would give better quality in my hifi system. I already own 3 tubes (jw 396a, 6386 & ericsson 2c51) and plan to buy an audiophilleo transport if I keep the havana. So as I couldn't hear and estimate tweakd havana I don't know what choice is the best...
   
  What's your opinion ?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Diode question
> 
> Schottky diodes only come in 600 or 1200v, the spec calls for 800...which did you use???


 


  I'm using these: SBYV27 200V 2A, very fast and great sounding,
  the stock: 800V?? hmm...., we have there no more than 20V.
   
  Up to 200V are the fastest.
  http://www.vishay.com/docs/88736/sbyv27.pdf


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new here but follow this topic with care for two years when I bought my Havana Dac. I just changed my amp and speakers for quite expensive ones and would like to improve also my source but as I'm a bit short in money now I hesitate between upgrading my havana dac or buy a new one.
> 
> ...


 

  
  I'd love to hear one of the heavily modified Havana's as well...
   
  As for your question, though...I really couldn't say.
   
  I happen to have an Electrocompaniet ECD-1 DAC in my system at the moment (along side the Havana) and the two DACs sound *totally* different (my Havana is stock, BTW). 
   
  The ECD-1 definitely has a wider soundstage, more 3 dimensional sounding and quite a bit more detailed (approaching what I would call eerie, even "bothersome" detail and it's a pretty neat thing to listen too. Both the ECD-1 and Havana both have super delicious and excellent bass in my opinion. The ECD-1, at least with my headphones (Grado GS1000's) is a bit too strident in the highs, there's a bit to much "sizzle" and "splash" with high hat and cymbal crashes and overall the sound is just too "edgy" for my rig. Overall, I prefer the more natural "room-like"/analogue-esque sound of the Havana with my particular set up.
   
  That said, had I a decent speaker rig (or even different headphones), my opinion could easily be swayed towards the Electrocompaniet ECD-1 or some other sort of upsampling DAC as such a rig might benefit more from the increased detail and imaging that the ECD-1 provides...but through my cans, I'd rather not have a microscopic view into any given recording and prefer a more musical resolution of the digital signal where emphasis is on delivery of the whole production as opposed to a clinical separation of sounds. If that even makes any sense... 
   
  So try and borrow/sample a few different DACs if you can and see if you might prefer something different with your new gear...
   
  At one time I thought I would never move beyond the Havana (though I sill might not) but having listened to the ECD-1 (and some other DACs), I've realized that *everything* is rig dependent and that each unique setup of source/amp/speaker/headphones requires a great deal of work in truly nailing the particular synergy that suits the listeners preferences).


----------



## mako44

S1rrah,
   
  thanks for your answer I'm really conscious that all is a question of synergy between the different parts of the hifi chain but as I'm short in money I have to find a temporary solution. Regarding me I know that_ _I won't keep the havannah, I mean at least the stock one, since even in my old system I found it too "bad" especially the lack of air, transparency, accuracy and so on... It could be much much better.
   
  I saw the tweaks greatly improve these aspects of the sound so it's tempting as on the other hand I like the natural analogue and musical sound of this dac. I plan to change the output capacitors with mundorfs, 6 resistors with shinkoh, the two input caps, 1 Mundorf silver/gold 0,22uF 1000V and the 4 on the left in front of the transformer.
   
  Does anyone knows at least if tweaked havannah + a good transport competes with (or is better than) Calyx or Heed Obelisk Dacs as I couldn't pay more (for used ones) for the moment ? I saw Realmaasy sold his havanah for a m2tech young dac so don't really know what to think...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> I found some Schottky made by Cree at higher value.


 

 what for?  800V? It seems MHDT purchased the cheapest trashes like L grade chips!  800V are slow! you need extremely fast rectifier to extract better picture (details).
   
  You need 8 x SBYV27 200V 2A.


----------



## robeeert1

Fathead,
  You will not hear the difference between the two.
  Do what you want. For me you can use 15kV value and 1kA current, and speedlight fast components.
  You will not hear any improvement but why not to try. 
  Post your impressions.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Diode question
> 
> Schottky diodes only come in 600 or 1200v, the spec calls for 800...which did you use???


 

 I am using these allover my components - not the fastest /55ns/ but acceptable -
 *FAIRCHILD SEMICONDUCTOR - RHRP8120 - DIODE,FAST,8A,1200V,2-TO220AC * Cheers.


----------



## niamex

The most important  parameter is of these diodes - "The RHRP8120 is a hyperfast diode with *soft recovery* characteristics (< 55ns). It has half the recovery time of ultrafast diodes and is of *silicon nitride passivated ion-implanted epitaxial planar construction*" - that is the issue !
  Cheers,


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Looks like loserica is using Schottky diodes as well....


 

 [size=xx-small][size=xx-small]Yes, SCHOTTKY diodes.[/size][/size]..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  How's the sound after you install Auricap?


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Mako
> 
> My modded Havana has a huge soundstage and reached further and deeper than the original, the information that the Dac chips can resolve from the data is rendered beautifully -but- the Havana can not yet resolve as much information as my Audiogd Ref7.


 

 The Audiogd ref 7 is known to be very detailed and may be also quite analytical depending on the other elements of the hifi system with its saber chip so it's not a shame the havana is lower on this aspect. I'm not a fan of huge detailed sources anyway, and not at all of analytical ones, I much favor musicality and rich timbers.
   
  From what I read, changing main components give a better aeration between instruments, transparency, more timber nuances, bigger soundstage and also dynamics (not sure for this); that's what I'm looking for so I may try the improvement. Can be fun anyway.
   
  If tweaked Havana would balance the audiogd dac and be worst only on details it would fine for me.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Good information here
> 
> Different approaches at work....I will stick with Schottky for my diode of choice.
> 
> ...


 
  You are absolutely right to decide by yourself - just check here and there before final step. Michael Percy is a high end guru - http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf  and he says -
  Soft Recovery (FRED) & Schottky Diodes
 "Fast Recovery Epitaxial Diode.The FRED soft recovery and Schottky diodes are the high
 speed device of choice for rectification. Their fast response time, soft recovery, and lack of
 ringing and overshoot places them a big step beyond other high speed diodes which have
 much higher noise and distortion. Replacing your diode bridges with these (4 usually
 required) will yield significant improvements including increased dynamics, dramatically
 lower noise, and reduced grain and glare. Use the 1000V/1200V types where your B+ is
 above 350VDC or so, thereby allowing for turn on surges. We carry diodes of this type from
 Vishay, IXYS, and Fairchild, including the exceptionally soft recovery "Stealth" types. Please
 note that the soft recovery characteristic of these diodes is far more important than the
 absolute speed (trr) of one or the other."
  Cheers,


----------



## realmassy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *mako44* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...
> I saw Realmaasy sold his havanah for a m2tech young dac so don't really know what to think...


 
   
  Here I am, I'm still subscribed to the thread, although now is all about mods.
  You're right, I sold the Havana, as I felt was the bottle neck of my system.
  I'm now using the Young, and I just bought the Palmer (battery power) as well. The two dacs sound completely different, and I guess the Young will not work very well in bright systems.
  The USB input is great, so I could sell the Halide Bridge as well.
  I'm happy about the sound, but I ended up upgrading the Stax amp  :-O
   
  But, I'd never changed the source without listening to it first, so my suggestion is obvious, try to get a demo and listen to it in your system.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Apparently the Havana can use a wide range in values for parts. For example Jiun said the output caps can range from 0.47 to 10u and >50V is OK.  So I went ahead and sent him an email about the range in values for other parts.


 
  That's right and depends on the input impedance of next component in the system - preamp or whaever. In my case for example Chris VenHouse suggested 3,3 uF in order to get better /cleaner and deeper/ bass.
  Cheers,


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





realmassy said:


> You're right, I sold the Havana, as I felt was the bottle neck of my system.
> I'm now using the Young, and I just bought the Palmer (battery power) as well. The two dacs sound completely different, and I guess the Young will not work very well in bright systems.
> 
> But, I'd never changed the source without listening to it first, so my suggestion is obvious, try to get a demo and listen to it in your system.


 
   
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> BTW, its not really "details" that are meant by resolution.  The Ref 7 is not as detailed as say a LavryDA10 which I have owned, but it does retrieve more information from the source data. When I say resolution I mean just more information, not crisp, hard, detailed sound. Maybe its hard to explain, but sound wise the Ref7 is extremely musical and not harsh sounding at all by any stretch of the imagination.


 


 Hi, thanks for your comments. Well I guess a more neutral source would be better in my new hifi system as my amp is already with tubes - even if it doesn't sound that tuby but quite realistic - and the M2tech young could fit better but as I plan to buy a streamer like Linn akurate ds (not this one as I dont like the sound but same type of streamer) when there will be a good one I guess the Havanah can stay a bit with me. Ideally I'd like to have a dac sounding like Eera or Primare cd players if you know them : refined, nuanced, soft but entertaining, neutral and realistic but musical, detailed but not analitycal and cold.
   
  I don't think I can get that with havana (and dacs of that range) but can try to approach until I find a good streamer and can pay it. FT-3 Russian 0,22uF cap looks good for this according to Robert comment but its size is a problem, I may consider the mundorf silver/oil instead. Elna silmic capacitors + Auricap look good too for this. I will se for the rest.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> FT-3 Russian 0,22uF cap looks good for this according to Robert comment but its size is a problem, I may consider the mundorf silver/oil instead. .


 
  The size of FT3 is really a problem, you can fit it in the case you like it, sounds fantastic. I  encourage you to try it. It's a cheap one.


----------



## mako44

However what a mess to find a website located in europa who sells all these parts ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  By now I found Parts Connexion located in canada. Well, if they have everything it will easier and cheaper anyway.
   
  I will also buy a malaysian chip in TI also as ebay ones are not japan/korean guaranteed, too bad.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The size of FT3 is really a problem, you can fit it in the case you like it, sounds fantastic. I  encourage you to try it. It's a cheap one.


 

  
  I'm a real soldery and tweaking begginer so may spend a whole month with this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. However do you think put two jupiter output caps instead of mundorf silver/gold would be better ? I saw Fathead did that


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I'm a real soldery and tweaking begginer so may spend a whole month with this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Jupiter HT and Mundorfs silver/gold are I'm sure different sounding. You ask me which are better, I didn't compare them, I think it is a matter of taste. I'm sure both are great.
   
  I also tried Jensens 2,7uF 630V Copper Foil as output caps, really great, liked them better than Mundorfs silver/gold, but due to their size (much bigger than Mundorfs) I couldn't fit them. I'm gonna try different values (smaller) in the future. I'm fully satisfied with Mundorfs silver/gold for the time being.


----------



## mako44

yes everyone looks happy with mundorf silver/gold output caps, I was just wondering if it wouldn't be a good deal to put Jupiter ones instead with Mundorf Silver/oil 0,22uF cap (as the ft3-russian is a bit big to fit into). I'll try both if jupiter output caps are not too expensive.


----------



## mako44

Will be fun to try this


----------



## s1rrah

Any of you modders in the states? I want to get some minimal upgrade components (output caps and whatever few other components some of the more experienced might suggest) and then _pay_ somebody to do the solder work (I'm strapped with work at the moment and have no time to put towards solder practice). I know a guy at Hot Rod audio who has offered to mod my DAC but I'd rather a current Havana owner do it. PM me if your interested...
   
  .joel.


----------



## robeeert1

Joel,
   
  I would suggest you to borrow the upgraded DAC from someone if it is possible. I think shipping within US is not any problem.
  You would be able to compare the DACs and think over the costs hearing the final result.
  Full upgade is very expensive about $1000 - $1200 - components only (max quality - worth it),
  Are you willing to cover the cost? I suppose you're not without the audition..
  Advice: borrow, test, decide.
   
  Cheers,


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Also I might be going back to the VCaps for my output caps, the Jupiter caps everywhere seem to be too much of a good thing...a little too mellow for my tastes. I'm going to let is burn in for awhile longer and see what happens.


 

 To which V-Cap you refer (CuTF, TFTF or OIMP)? I don't remember what you had before in the output section.


----------



## mako44

By the way did someone tried Mundorf Silver/gold & oil output caps instead of Mundorf Silver/gold ? Wonder what can be the difference


----------



## mako44

That's what I plan to get personnaly except for the Jupiter Cap (I want somenthing more neutral) and vcap outputs (I plan to put Mundorf Silver/gold & oil ones like for 0.22 uf cap).
   
  I don't want to make something too colored but neutral/realistic with tube advantages : liquidity, body...


----------



## LionelH2

After many delays due to travel and work, I finally finished the R-Core transformer upgrade. A lot of work, but worth it.  I think Fathead described the benefits quite well: stunning punchy dynamics and lower distortion/better clarity across the board. 
   
  I have the tube related resistors in hand and should have the Schottky diodes in a few days. Can one you guys show me the diode locations and any tips would be helpful. I'm very grateful to all for these great mods.


----------



## LionelH2

Got it, thanks very much. I'll let you know how it goes in a few days. BTW, your summary of mods/benefits is right on. I went Mundorf for output caps, and I think you have changed out more yellow caps than me, but I'm close behind you guys. 
  
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> The diodes go in this configuration...the ones behind the caps all face towards the rear.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Here is my complete upgrade summary:
> 
> 
> -Upgraded PCM56P chips gave me more of the classic NOS Dac sound and increased extension
> ...


 
   
  Could you try a summary in order of importance? Even if it were subjective...I'm interested strictly in terms of audio impact. Thank's!


----------



## robeeert1

here is my list in order of importance:
   
  1) Chips
  2) tube
  3) shinkoh res.
  4) r-core
  5) output caps
  6) electrolytic caps
  7) foil small caps
  7) silver mica caps
  8) diodes vishay
  9) fuse


----------



## LionelH2

What PS caps did you use and what values/voltage are needed?


  
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> In order of priority...1=highest priority
> 
> Shinkoh-1
> Schottky-1
> ...


----------



## LionelH2

Thanks, these are the 4 caps in the front left of the DAC?
  
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> All of my Electrolytic caps are Elna Silmic II in the whole Dac now.  For the PS its 2200uF 25v.


----------



## ZenFire

I wish you guys made a video or series of photos of your hands and tools actually doing your escapades, as I'd like to become a DIY-er with this Havana as my first go.  I have the V-caps and tubes and tube dampener only, as my DAC came that way on Audiogon.  Ready to take it all on, get the parts all sent to me to do all at once.
   
  Can you recommend what soldering irons, solder, pliers, tools, tweezers, hemostats, mats or grounding cloths, goggles!, and other assorted accoutrements someone with absolutely no tools or anything to his name needs to get this done, and start on this path?  (I'm sure this is good for a giggle.)
   
  It's either that or I'm going to have to beg one of you to do my Havana for me, et al the lists above.
   
  Cheers, Z


----------



## LionelH2

None of my usual parts sources have this value/voltage. Can you recommend a source?
  
  Quote: 





fathead said:


> Yep...


----------



## rocky500

Are these the correct Schottky Diodes.
  http://au.element14.com/infineon/idv02s60c/diode-schottky-600v-2a-to220fp/dp/1844978
   
  element14 is good for us in Australia as it is free freight.
   
  Reverse Recovery Time trr Max: 10ns
  Is there 8 of them to change?
  Also fathead you have something wedged between the back ones in pic below. What is that stuff?
  http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/7e/7e912f47_P1110460.jpeg


----------



## ZenFire

Can you PM me a source for the Silmic caps, I'd like to not miss out, from what I've read they're sweet.  I hear there are way too many fakes.  Thanks for all!!!  Z


----------



## mako44

Hi all,
   
   
  I'm going to order my new components but I need your expert agreement : Can you confirm everything's ok, especially values of different components (as i'm a bit confused with some of them)
   
  - output caps : 2x MUNDORF Silver / Gold / Oil  2.2uf  1000V 
  - 1 Mundorf Silver / Gold / Oil  0,22uF 1200V
  - shinkoh tantalum : 4 x 100R 1W + 2 x 390R 1W
  - 470 uf cap : Elna silmic II RFS 35V
  - Elna Silmic capacitors : 4 x ELNA Silmic II 2200uf 25V  + 1 x Elna Silmic II 1000uf 35v 
  - 6 x AUDIENCE AuriCap (0,1uf  400v)  
   
  I'm especially not sure of the voltage of the mundorf caps as one website says 1000V and another one says 1200V (?...). The 4 x 2200uf Elna Silmic Caps are 25V only as 35V are discontinued, is it important ?
   
   
  I'm also going to buy Russian silver micas but I don't find them for the moment.
  - 2 x Russian Silver Mica (0,01 uf) on C12
  - 3 x Russian silver mica 0.1uf
   
  Does it make sense for you ?


----------



## rocky500

This is my order of the shinkoh Resistors from Hifi Collective

 2 x (RES-1S640) 390K 1W Shinkoh Resistor 4 x (RES-1S210) 100R 1W Shinkoh Resistor
   
  It is the "K" you want after the 390 if you want them to be the original value ones.
  Measured the same as the old ones I pulled out.

   
  Just checked the old one again.


----------



## mako44

yes that's the ones I selected Rocky500


----------



## LionelH2

My Mundorf Caps are Silver/Gold Supreme, not the S/G Oil.  I think the other DIYers have used the Silver/Gold also.

  
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I'm going to order my new components but I need your expert agreement : Can you confirm everything's ok, especially values of different components (as i'm a bit confused with some of them)
> ...


----------



## mako44

Yes I saw but I thought that Silver/gold & Oil would still be better as it's the upper range don't you think ?
   
  Did number and values of the other components seem good to you ?
   
  Someone spoke about 6 x audience auricap 0.1uf but in fact I count 7 in the havana...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Yes I saw but I thought that Silver/gold & Oil would still be better as it's the upper range don't you think ?


 

 Remember upper range doesn't always mean better, silver/gold sounds perfect in Havana but take a risk and install SGIO.
  I also tried Elna Silmic II 3300uF and compared them with  Elna ROB Tonerex 3300uF. (PS Big filtering caps 3300uF are better than 2200uF in the case of Havana)
  Tonerex is more natural and I liked them much better, so lower grade doen't mean worse,
  but the best cap choice is Black Gate FK series. Elna Silmic II is not as half good as BG "Fk", "F", "NX" series.
   
  Everyone makes his choice and that is right.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> Are these the correct Schottky Diodes.
> http://au.element14.com/infineon/idv02s60c/diode-schottky-600v-2a-to220fp/dp/1844978
> 
> element14 is good for us in Australia as it is free freight.
> ...


 


 I think it's ok, x8 yes


----------



## mako44

Quote:


robeeert1 said:


> Remember upper range doesn't always mean better, silver/gold sounds perfect in Havana but take a risk and install SGIO.
> I also tried Elna Silmic II 3300uF and compared them with  Elna ROB Tonerex 3300uF. (PS Big filtering caps 3300uF are better than 2200uF in the case of Havana)
> Tonerex is more natural and I liked them much better, so lower grade doen't mean worse,
> but the best cap choice is Black Gate FK series. Elna Silmic II is not as half good as BG "Fk", "F", "NX" series.
> ...


 


 Thanks for your comments Robeeert I'll look at that.
   
  I will also order 8 Shottky diodes if I find some. Small question : do "russian silver micas" are different of these "Silver micas" : http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/silver_mica.html ?
   
   
  EDIT : #### Elna 3300uf look discontinued too...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I will also order 8 Shottky diodes if I find some. Small question : do "russian silver micas" are different of these "Silver micas" : http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/silver_mica.html ?


 

 I've just received some values of silver mica caps from hificollective for my new DIY DAC some days ago, compare them with russian, let you know about the differences.
  Russian are cheap and should be better.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,

  
  What do you recommend for the PS Caps, 3300uf and Black Gate FK?
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Remember upper range doesn't always mean better, silver/gold sounds perfect in Havana but take a risk and install SGIO.
> I also tried Elna Silmic II 3300uF and compared them with  Elna ROB Tonerex 3300uF. (PS Big filtering caps 3300uF are better than 2200uF in the case of Havana)
> Tonerex is more natural and I liked them much better, so lower grade doen't mean worse,
> but the best cap choice is Black Gate FK series. Elna Silmic II is not as half good as BG "Fk", "F", "NX" series.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> What do you recommend for the PS Caps, 3300uf and Black Gate FK?


 


  I recommend higher value like 3300uF instead of 2200uF, BG higher values will cost a fortune! (I do not recommend)
  You may use Elna Simlic II, Vishay, Elna ROB tonerex .
   
   
  And higher voltage is always better but Check the size of the caps before you purchase


----------



## LionelH2

Dumb question - do I buy the radial leads version or the "snap in" version?
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I recommend higher value like 3300uF instead of 2200uF, BG higher values will cost a fortune! (I do not recommend)
> ...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Yes I saw but I thought that Silver/gold & Oil would still be better as it's the upper range don't you think ?
> 
> Did number and values of the other components seem good to you ?
> 
> Someone spoke about 6 x audience auricap 0.1uf but in fact I count 7 in the havana...


 

 I changed 7 Auricap capacitors (0,1uf). There is no recipe, or change them all or do not change. I chose to change all film stock capacitors becouse I haven't agreed to have cheap and mediocre quality capacitors. This was the only reason. What followed later was still positive meaning that you can satisfied.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Remember upper range doesn't always mean better, silver/gold sounds perfect in Havana but take a risk and install SGIO.
> I also tried Elna Silmic II 3300uF and compared them with  Elna ROB Tonerex 3300uF. (PS Big filtering caps 3300uF are better than 2200uF in the case of Havana)


 

 Robeeert, do you think Elna Silmic 3300uf 50V are ok for the havana ? It's a real pain to find 2200 or 3300 35V, they are discontinued everywhere... (and I don't find black gate neither).


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Robeeert, do you think Elna Silmic 3300uf 50V are ok for the havana ? It's a real pain to find 2200 or 3300 35V, they are discontinued everywhere... (and I don't find black gate neither).


 
  .
 You will not fit 3300uF 50V in the Havana. Check the sizes and spaces.
   
  You can easily fit these,
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elna-Tonerex-ROB-3300uF-25V-Audio-Kondensator-2St-/370387449418?pt=Lautsprecher_Selbstbau&hash=item563ccff64a
   
  Note that Elna Silmic II are considered to be better than Elna ROB TONEREX, but my impressions were different.
  I finally installed ROB TONEREX 3300uF 25V. (ROB is unbeatable for its naturalness for me)
   
  BG high capacitance are very hard to find and very expensive.
   
  Make your own choice.


----------



## mako44

According to different discussions several people think that Tonerex are very warm capacitors so I don't know if it's what I need... I think i'll take 4 x Silmic 1 2200uf 25v because the silmic 1 series are reputated to be a bit less tubey sounding and colored on the midrage than the silmic 2 while keeping a very good quality of timbers (according to all the comments i read). Black Gate looked good, more neutral, but are impossible to find (and expensive) too bad. Anyway, I think it's only hearing the silmic that i'll know if it's what I want or not so....


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> According to different discussions several people think that Tonerex are very warm capacitors so I don't know if it's what I need... I think i'll take 4 x Silmic 1 2200uf 25v because the silmic 1 series are reputated to be a bit less tubey sounding and colored on the midrage than the silmic 2 while keeping a very good quality of timbers (according to all the comments i read). Black Gate looked good, more neutral, but are impossible to find (and expensive) too bad. Anyway, I think it's only hearing the silmic that i'll know if it's what I want or not so...


 
   
  In section electrolytic, I have a "mix" of ELNA capacitors including Silmic I, Silmic II, (silk-fiber); 1 pieces (2,200ufX16V) Cerafine (super fine ceremic particles) and 4 pieces (2,200ufX25V) Red Starget ROD (Aluminium electrolytic capacitors). It is very funny. I say again, I don't believe in the existence of generally valid recipes. The sound has a textured character, but at the same time is naturally. Mid-range frequencies are expressed very natural, relaxed, pleasant. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




    
  I found an interesting presentation on www.hificollective.co.uk site:
   
  "Which capacitor to use is Difficult to determine without actually trying. It depends on Too Many Factors. To Hear A Certain part of the potential, it's nessecary to change Other shares Often too. Experimenting with different combinations is a more robust way to lift to a higher level of design. In principle the original music signal HAS TO BE preserved as much as Possible, But It's Difficult to Tell Which shares do. For analysing the music signal (harmonic structures changing in time) is still the most our Ears Useful tool. But we're all Calibrated differently. To Some of the color and warmth and SILMIC Adds the Black Gate FK sounds neutral. Others to a neutral SILMIC Because it sounds exactly reproduces natural colors and warmth from the recording, the Black Gate FK sounds more 'hifi' to Them, making the signal more pulsed, peaky (giving attack) and too clean (filtering out natural timbres) .

 Often the Combination of different (high quality) capacitors in the right places Gives the best result. Best thing is to try yourself and trust your Ears. Still, We Want Some to mention as a rough guideline General Characteristics (of course tissue has our personal, biased, subject experiences). Apply for tissue characters capacitors in the signal path either used or in the power supply (for digital different rules apply, But There are simularities as well). Lower voltage of the capacitor CAN versions offer more refinement (it's faster, more Presence Gives Towards the mid-highs).

 The SILMIC II is best for reproducing different timbres, natural colors and warmth in the recording. It offers most Presence in the low-mid range with lots of texture (tangible). Bass is round and warm, the mid and highrange is very refined, 'silky', quiet, with lots of openess But (More Than CERAFINE open, less open Than Black Gate FK).

 Also very good is the CERAFINE for reproducing different timbres, natural colors, But Has More Than SILMIC direct sound (less directly Than Black Gate FK). Bass is round and warm, the midrange and the high Presence HAS most range is lively.

 The Black Gate FK HAS the most open and clean sound, with the main Presence in the high range. It sounds thinner, offers somewhat less texture and stamps. It offers most pulse, attack in Both the low, mid and high ranges."


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> In section electrolytic, I have a "mix" of ELNA capacitors including Silmic I, Silmic II, (silk-fiber); 1 pieces (2,200ufX16V) Cerafine (super fine ceremic particles) and 4 pieces (2,200ufX25V) Red Starget ROD (Aluminium electrolytic capacitors). It is very funny. I say again, I don't believe in the existence of generally valid recipes. The sound has a textured character, but at the same time is naturally. Mid-range frequencies


 
   
  I have also a mix of caps, Elna SiImlic II, BG FK, BG F, Elna ROB Tonerex and some left Nichicon.


----------



## mako44

I totally agree, this is what I said to myself when I read all the comments on the web about existing caps. each one can give a different touch to the sound and mix them together certainly can build a combination that would more or less approach what you really expect (or not depending of the cap combination !). On the other hand, like Fathead said these caps just have a part of the overall sound, and i guess it's quite difficult to find the right combination... It must be a funny puzzle to imrpove.


----------



## kkqewl

Just a word of caution to all those looking to upgrade capacitors, some of the Silmic ll caps on Ebay are fakes,  especially those from China.
  Some are obvious such as  3300uf  @ 50V  etc.
   
  Elna never made a Sillmic ll in any thing over 1000uf  @25v   , 2200uf only goes up to 16v rating and 3300uf a max of 10volts.
   
  Do not get suckered in to overpaying for these clearly inferior and unreliable fake caps !!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kkqewl said:


> Just a word of caution to all those looking to upgrade capacitors, some of the Silmic ll caps on Ebay are fakes,  especially those from China.
> Some are obvious such as  3300uf  @ 50V  etc.
> 
> Elna never made a Sillmic ll in any thing over 1000uf  @25v   , 2200uf only goes up to 16v rating and 3300uf a max of 10volts.
> ...


 


  Check in hificollective shop in UK, they do not sell fakes, you can find there Elna Silmic II 3300uf 50V, I would also avoid buying items from china sellers.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> All my caps came from either hificollective or parts connexion.
> 
> Also I heard that high uF is better because of less roll-off...I know the 50v is too big but I wonder if a 10v would work


 
   
  Max Havana's PS voltage is set to about 20V.
  You are not allowed to use cap spec. less than 25V !!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Then I guess due to the slim choices of available PS caps it might be hard to find a good cap.


 
   
  That's why I chose Tonerex 3300uF, fitted in the Havana with no problem, they sound great, they are cheap and I'm sure they are originals from Elna.
  I couldn't source better PS caps for this DAC.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Check in hificollective shop in UK, they do not sell fakes, you can find there Elna Silmic II 3300uf 50V, I would also avoid buying items from china sellers.


 

 That's right and I do not believe they are fake
  Cheers,


----------



## mako44

There's no sound coming from my dac anymore, I don't know what happens 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I unplugged it to look at some values on my window, changed the tube and then nothing now...
   
  I tried a different cable, a second usb plug on my computer and another tube, it's the same. My pc sees the dac as the two green lights are on and Windows XP makes a sound when I unplug the havana. Usually I have a small "poc" in the speakers when I turn it on but now not, however I can hear the dac initialize 2 seconds after I turn it on (i think this is the moment when the "poc" appeared before) : i hear a small clic on the dac. But no music when I start the player... Strange.


----------



## rocky500

I had a similar thing happen but only 1 CH went dead.
  Lasted about 2 hours after putting them in.
  I actually wonder if it is heat as it gets quite toasty inside the Havana.
  Tried first swapping them over and the dead ch swapped over too. Put the originals back in and now have 2 CH.


----------



## mako44

I didn't used it for my message yesterday, plugged it to my computer 20 mns ago to test again and here it works ...  May be there's a loose connection or i don't know.


----------



## mako44

I have one last question before ordering all the components :
   
  I'm confused about the 3 russian silver mica capacitors, is this the place where you put them ? It looks strange for me as silver micas are much more tall than 1 & 2...
   
  I'll try silver mica that are at hificollective, If i'm not wrong I have to buy 10000 pf ones no (same value than 0.01uf) ?


----------



## rocky500

I would like to know which ones to change as well as mine arrive soon.
   
  Also noticed the orange original one in my Havana has 1000 +- 10% which seems to me to be 0.001uf. I ordered these below. Could anyone tell me if I got the correct values?
  Replace the orange one
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/190539885380?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
  and to replace the yellow ones in the pic in the previous post
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200659264475?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
  Thanks
   
  I also will have spares if anyone in Australia wants a set.


----------



## mako44

ok everything's clear thanks to you 2. It seems it's also possible to put a 0.01uf cap (or 10000pf) on C12 according to Robeeert in a past comment. Well, I'm going to order all this stuff !


----------



## mako44

My dac will look like  a new one after that...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Greater decay, clearer voices, better able to hear sonic characteristics of the tube.
> 
> Fine nuances in voices when the person harmonises really stands out.  Like before you would hear one tone or note for a voice, now I realise they are really going slightly up and down with the note.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> How do they sound? I remember I adored the change.


 
  Shinkoh Tantalum resistors are very, very good, indeed. A very welcome change of texture at the sound! Surely, this change is _one__ of the most __important_, as You have pointed out.
   In addition to superior sound clarity, "greater decay, clearer voices, better able to hear sonic characteristics of the TUBE!" .... is affected as much as possible the positive perception of separation of instruments and audio-layering! Sound mix is homogeneous and coherent; and that superior texture ....Beautiful!!!


----------



## LionelH2

My Tonerex 3300uf are on the way from Germany. Thanks for the advice. 
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> That's why I chose Tonerex 3300uF, fitted in the Havana with no problem, they sound great, they are cheap and I'm sure they are originals from Elna.
> I couldn't source better PS caps for this DAC.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> My Tonerex 3300uf are on the way from Germany. Thanks for the advice.


 

  
  Good choice. You should hear improvement over the stock Nichicons. Tonerex ROB is the New design. They're the best from Elna to my ears.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> There's no sound coming from my dac anymore, I don't know what happens
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Quote:


rocky500 said:


> I had a similar thing happen but only 1 CH went dead. It happen to be the Dac chips I brought off ebay. Made in Japan "K" version. Yeah right.
> Lasted about 2 hours after putting them in.
> I actually wonder if it is heat as it gets quite toasty inside the Havana.
> Tried first swapping them over and the dead ch swapped over too. Put the originals back in and now have 2 CH.


 

  
  Well as I said I unplugged the dac and moved it a bit few days ago and then it worked again but today I put the 2 pcm56p-k chips I received today from mouser and then no sound again... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So i don't think the problem of the sound that disappear comes from the chips as these ones are new and sometimes i've got some sound, sometimes not... I thought it came from the cable power as touching it just a bit made the dac reinitialize but I tried 2 other ones and nothing change. I don't understand what's the problem as I didn't change anything in the dac yet (except the chips).
   
  P.S : there's no sound but the K chips look good in my dac !


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> P.S : there's no sound but the K chips look good in my dac !


 

 Any photo of the K-grade chips from mouser?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Well as I said I unplugged the dac and moved it a bit few days ago and then it worked again but today I put the 2 pcm56p-k chips I received today from mouser and then no sound again...
> ...


 
   
  Check the PS connector with black and green cables first, unplug and plug it or push it, then check out the digital cable, plug,unplug, both ends.
  If it doens't help then look for a loose connection.


----------



## mako44

I already checked that but no change. Looks like I will have to give it to a repairer as I don't know how to look for loose connections....
   
  Here's the k-chips of mouser, from malaysia as expected :


----------



## eantala

I got my K chips from Arrow, they are made in Malaysia.
   
  Yours look quite different mine look machined engraved, yours look  the K is handwritten by someone with a marker?


----------



## mako44

The K looks handwritten for you ? Well i guess it's because of the flash because the chips look totally normal for me in real and i would say machine engraved. I'll send a better photo if I can.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





fathead said:


> No worries Mouser sells real stuff.


 
  Chips from mouser seem to be real.

 Writings are printed during the production's process by laser engraver, and the grade is printed by hand atfer mesurements.
  On the left I suppose we have the fake chips, on the right 100% originals BB. Take a look at the grade writings.


----------



## mako44

The dac works today (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and these chips are great ! Magical sound, it seems much more natural to me for the few I listened to, more accurate, I would say more limpid if you understand this word. The music seems to flow better like water. Good


----------



## eantala

Glad your DAC is working again mako,
   
  Robeert thanks for posting those pics its helps clarify things regarding the K chips..


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





fathead said:


> You still need to figure out why your Dac keeps dieing.


 


 I still don't know why but it looks to me that if I turn off the computer (not reboot but turn off) and then turn it on back then the problem disapears ! I'll receive all the new components in a few days may be it will help to resolve the problem. Anyway today it works again


----------



## mako44

I don't know if it's a placebo effect but I feel like the dac made a big jump forwards since I put the K chips. With the 2c51 ericsson tube the sound is really great. I just listened to Dire straits live and some smooth jazz, it's a real pleasure. Not perfect but a very good basis for improvment, I can't wait to change the transistors and so on.


----------



## mako44

I listen to carefully different musics for this morning here's an information that can be useful :  I much prefered the sound of the 2c51 Ericsson tube instead of the others (jw 3w96a, ge 5 star 6386) but were always disapointed because it was too thin/lean on mids and sometimes too bright on some recordings making it less magical than the other tubes despite of better clarity, details, soundstage and so on...
   
  For I put the K-chips it's "wonderful" (for what they can do, many things can still be improved). It doesn't sound too thin or lean anymore but very well balanced compared to the bass and highs. Highs are not harsh or too bright anymore, once again all is very good i'm impressed as I didn't expect that. So I don't exactly know if the k chips are fuller in the mids or just duller than the L ones but it's a really good combination with the 2c51 ericsson tube : in fact for those who use or liked this tube despite the defaults I explained before, k-chips + 2c51 is a must have, really.


----------



## mako44

Nest step : Mundorf silver/gold/oil output caps ! But pffffew they are huge 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 !


----------



## loserica

Swich that behind Havana is about without sense for those who don't use Toslink (optical) input. I think this negatively affect the sound! Question is to what extent might implement an input separately only for SPDIF in the input stage. As a general idea switches are not suitable.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> You're about to be in for a real treat now!!!


 
   
  Approximately, the path is like this. If I counted right, I changed until now about sixty components (a little madness)...
  Blue arrow indicates of course, the next change.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Wow, great job!!!
> I counted mine, I replace 54 parts.
> 
> Would be interesting to hear one of these modded Dacs next to a stock Havana Dac.


 
   
  Is remarkable in that note starts the Thread: "Anybody checked this out yet? As a former Paradisea owner I'd be curious to hear how it compares", and where you actually get. Being aware of how sound has progressed step by step, Havana modded is another dac compared to stock version, in terms of sound quality. We can not doubt that. If I remember from memory, I think that Havana has improved critical in the level of detail, sound-transparency, clarity along the entire spectrum frequency, definition&dynamic, and notable at texture, sound-stage, decay, audio-layering (depending on how permit the scheme and implementation). So I think that detail, dynamic and transparency will be clearly perceptible in other level of sound quality from the stock version (I remember that the latter was slightly "anemic", lacked depth detail of instruments mix, have notable deficiencies at dynamic, speed...)


----------



## mako44

I desoldered the two output caps of the Havana but the wire of the Mundorf ones is too big to fit into the existing holes. How did you soldered them : you made a bigger hole in the dac or you soldered them to the wires of the former output caps (after cuting them) ?
   
  P.S : well looks like several of you chose the second solution, i'll try this as it can been removed easily


----------



## LionelH2

Yes, Second solution for me.

  
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I desoldered the two output caps of the Havana but the wire of the Mundorf ones is too big to fit into the existing holes. How did you soldered them : you made a bigger hole in the dac or you soldered them to the wires of the former output caps (after cuting them) ?
> 
> P.S : well looks like several of you chose the second solution, i'll try this as it can been removed easily


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I desoldered the two output caps of the Havana but the wire of the Mundorf ones is too big to fit into the existing holes. How did you soldered them : you made a bigger hole in the dac or you soldered them to the wires of the former output caps (after cuting them) ?
> 
> P.S : well looks like several of you chose the second solution, i'll try this as it can been removed easily


 
   
  I removed the stock ones. soldered another longer silver plated wires into the existing holes, and soldered them to the caps. Your second solution.


----------



## mako44

I did it ! Wow it was quite hard for a first try 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I was afraid of getting no sound after that but it works ! These caps are not easy to fit into I can't imagine put larger ones in this dac...


----------



## mako44

First impressions : it's not a revolution but it's better. It's not a revolution because I can't say the sound has completely changed compared to before when I turned the dac on. For the few I listened to it seems to me it's clearer and above all I have a better definition. For exemples more details on live recordings like We get request K2HD from Oscar peterson (track "you look good to me") or Layla from Clapton unplugged giving a better ambience and immersion into the music. The bells at the beginning of "Time" from Pink Floyd seems much more clear and shining too.
   
  For the rest I listened to (few tracks) I didn't notice real big changes but it's listening longer that i'll be abble to see. For me the change of the chips was a more obvious improvement, to resume this one a would say it gives a better immersion into the music. May be because of better definition (details)/clarity but music seems also to be much more involving, I don't know why.
   
  Robeeert I saw you put a kind of piece of paper on the left output cap (the one that is touching another component - the heater i think-, is is important to put it ?
   
   
  Edit : I rewind : IT IS a revolution, music comes to me as never 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Robeeert I saw you put a kind of piece of paper on the left output cap (the one that is touching another component - the heater i think-, is is important to put it ?
> 
> 
> Edit : I rewind : IT IS a revolution, music comes to me as never
> ...


 
   
  I put the tape isolating the left cap from the radiator (heater). I think it is not necessary. But I feel better, two caps have the same working temperature. This radiator is the hottest in the DAC.


----------



## LionelH2

The Mundorfs have quite a long burn in time untl they really wow you.  I felt the same way you did initially, but its going to get better and better.


  
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> First impressions : it's not a revolution but it's better. It's not a revolution because I can't say the sound has completely changed compared to before when I turned the dac on. For the few I listened to it seems to me it's clearer and above all I have a better definition. For exemples more details on live recordings like We get request K2HD from Oscar peterson (track "you look good to me") or Layla from Clapton unplugged giving a better ambience and immersion into the music. The bells at the beginning of "Time" from Pink Floyd seems much more clear and shining too.
> 
> For the rest I listened to (few tracks) I didn't notice real big changes but it's listening longer that i'll be abble to see. For me the change of the chips was a more obvious improvement, to resume this one a would say it gives a better immersion into the music. May be because of better definition (details)/clarity but music seems also to be much more involving, I don't know why.
> 
> ...


----------



## mako44

Well it sounds like Mcaps worked well during the night. The sound is noticely cleaner and clearer than with the old caps, it's a major improvement. I was impatiently waiting for that kind of upgrade because the stock havana is so dark and rough to my ears that I couldn't stand it anymore. I particularly love the mid-highs and highs now.
   
  However whereas sometimes it's really "wow" (jackson - This is it, Daft Punk, some pop & acoustic music) on some other recordings I don't hear many changes (for example "Night & the city" from Charlie Haden & Kenny Barron), it's a bit frustrating. But in general it's much better, changing only the chips and these caps it's aldready not the same dac anymore and it quite clearly transcended my hifi system. I would have liked the mcaps to go a bit farer however as it's still a bit frustrating (more aeration in particular), may be next changes will fulfil this.
   
  P.S : I just changed C12 with silver mica 0.01uf from hificollective but here I don't hear direct changes.


----------



## LionelH2

I think that after a week or two of burn-in, you will be very pleased with the results.

  
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Well it sounds like Mcaps worked well during the night. The sound is noticely cleaner and clearer than with the old caps, it's a major improvement. I was impatiently waiting for that kind of upgrade because the stock havana is so dark and rough to my ears that I couldn't stand it anymore. I particularly love the mid-highs and highs now.
> 
> However whereas sometimes it's really "wow" (jackson - This is it, Daft Punk, some pop & acoustic music) on some other recordings I don't hear many changes (for example "Night & the city" from Charlie Haden & Kenny Barron), it's a bit frustrating. But in general it's much better, changing only the chips and these caps it's aldready not the same dac anymore and it quite clearly transcended my hifi system. I would have liked the mcaps to go a bit farer however as it's still a bit frustrating (more aeration in particular), may be next changes will fulfil this.
> 
> P.S : I just changed C12 with silver mica 0.01uf from hificollective but here I don't hear direct changes.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





> P.S : I just changed C12 with silver mica 0.01uf from hificollective but here I don't hear direct changes.


 


 There is no changes because silver mica from hificollective is different than Russian. Replacing c12 with Russian silver mica 0.01uF you can hear one of the most
  important changes in the sound of all upgraded parts in the DAC. This cap opens the DAC.
  I'm convinced  Mundorfs silver/gold/oil are also different sounding than Mundorfs silver/gold.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> I think that after a week or two of burn-in, you will be very pleased with the results.


 
   
  No LionelH2, no burn-in this time. Once you put it in the DAC, you hear a great improvement!.


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,
   
  I was referring to the Mundorf caps he just installed.  I did the C12 a while back.
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> No LionelH2, no burn-in this time. Once you put it in the DAC, you hear a great improvement!.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> I was referring to the Mundorf caps he just installed.  I did the C12 a while back.


 

 Misunderstanding - sorry, the output caps do need
  some time to show their best sound.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> First impressions : it's not a revolution but it's better. It's not a revolution because I can't say the sound has completely changed compared to before when I turned the dac on. For the few I listened to it seems to me it's clearer and above all I have a better definition. For exemples more details on live recordings like We get request K2HD from Oscar peterson (track "you look good to me") or Layla from Clapton unplugged giving a better ambience and immersion into the music. The bells at the beginning of "Time" from Pink Floyd seems much more clear and shining too.
> 
> For the rest I listened to (few tracks) I didn't notice real big changes but it's listening longer that i'll be abble to see. For me the change of the chips was a more obvious improvement, to resume this one a would say it gives a better immersion into the music. May be because of better definition (details)/clarity but music seems also to be much more involving, I don't know why.


 
   
  @mako44, each up-grade made in this dac is important and I'm sure you've made a good choice. Output capacitors is clearly a critical change in this DAC! Try as you can, detach the idea's  and listen...The sound will improve with passing weeks, months. Just be patient and you will hear with your own ears what will happen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> There is no changes because silver mica from hificollective is different than Russian. Replacing c12 with Russian silver mica 0.01uF you can hear one of the most
> important changes in the sound of all upgraded parts in the DAC. This cap opens the DAC.


 
   
  I confirm what you said here, Robeeert. The sound opens significantly!


----------



## LionelH2

Robert,
   
  Just got my Tonerex Caps, Shinkoh resistors, and my Shottky doides.  I think this is the final mod session.  Thanks to you and all the gang, the DAC sounds incredible.
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Misunderstanding - sorry, the output caps do need
> some time to show their best sound.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Robert,
> 
> Just got my Tonerex Caps, Shinkoh resistors, and my Shottky doides.  I think this is the final mod session.  Thanks to you and all the gang, the DAC sounds incredible.


 

  
  Nice to hear you're pleased with our upgrade. We do our best to improve the DAC. Enjoy the music.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Replacing c12 with Russian silver mica 0.01uF you can hear one of the most
> important changes in the sound of all upgraded parts in the DAC. This cap opens the DAC.
> I'm convinced  Mundorfs silver/gold/oil are also different sounding than Mundorfs silver/gold.


 


 Ok so I'll buy one ! Don't try silver micas from hifi collective they don't seem to give much/anything in the case of the havana.
   
  Regarding Silver/gold/oil caps I'm very happy with them, they're great no doubt. The music's dramatically purer and more beautiful than before. I listened to many different tracks and, as I said before, many times I said to myself "wow....". In fact It's like if I had changed my source for a new more expensive Dac or Cd, you know I rediscover all my cds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  It's just that on some tracks it's less radical or there's something I like less but I can't put the finger on it, I would say it deals with low fequencies, may be too dull ones or I don't know (I can't tell for the moment). But it can also be my speakers as I don't recognize them anymore, a lack of break in or the tube. I have to try the Jw 3w96a by the way (2c51 ericsson at moment).
   
  You're right when you say it's getting better and better with time, I still can notice a great improvement this morning. I'm listening to a Bach concerto by Hilary Hahn actually, the change of the output caps is an incredible jump forward I don't recognize my hifi system at all now...


----------



## mako44

I'm trying to put the Shinkoh diodes but the actual ones are very well soldered to the dac, they don't want to go out


----------



## mako44

They're impossible to put out from the dac, the wires break inside each time (second diode whose wires break when i try to pull them out). You soldered the shinkoh directly from the up side of the dac no ? if it's like this for each diode I think Dremel will be my friend


----------



## mako44

I did it ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It's a job... I'm going to listen to this now to make a break.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Swich that behind Havana is about without sense for those who don't use Toslink (optical) input. I think this negatively affect the sound! Question is to what extent might implement an input separately only for SPDIF in the input stage. As a general idea switches are not suitable.


 
  That's right - I've cut all the connections to the USB and Optical input - completely out.
  Cheers


----------



## mako44

Here's my feedback on Shinkoh resistors. First they're very musical it's obvious, they transform the dac in something that makes music and not only sound. In classical I particularly love violin concertos and sonatas and with stock havana violin was harsh and metalic sounding, that is no more the case with shinoh res. Voices are much more beautiful as well, well in general everything is more refined, softer and natural sounding. I must say it's a radical change regarding this points (it still can be better but it seems Shotky diodes improve that as well according to some comments).
   
  However Shinkoh res dramatically dull, warm and close the sound. Such a point that I didn't recognize my cds and for me low frequencies and low-mids were not at their right place, I was completely lost. To my ears, even if it was much more musical, it was completely unbalanced and very dull. I must precise that I always prefer airy and opened systems to dull and too warm ones. I also found the dac very fat, as if I was listening to a bad Sugden mk2 series if you know these amps. So last night I was not sure at all I would keep Shinkohs in the dac.
   
  This afternoon I put the 0.22uf Silver/gold/oil mundorf cap on C11 to see and phew what a relief. It was then airy again, opened, and above all, well balanced. Everything sounds much more at its place now. So to my ears Shinkoh res a a big deal if they are balanced with a more bright and transparent component but I can't imagine put them without the mundorf cap on c11. I think FT3 russian cap on c11 must be very interesting with shinkohs, too bad it's so huge and hard to fit into the havana.
   
  It's still a bit too dull and warm for me like this but this time it's more a question of tastes (I also need to let the mundorf cap break in more). I also need to tighten the low frequencies as they sound a bit fat or round to me. But I must say the havana is very musical now and quite well balanced to my ears and in another league than before once again. I'll go on a bit like this but I may try to mix Shinkoh res with more thin/neutral ones later, I noticed Caddock MK-132
 and Holco H2/H4 were good ones so why not having a trydepending on how Havana' sound will evolve with next changes.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> However Shinkoh res dramatically dull, warm and close the sound. Such a point that I didn't recognize my cds and for me low frequencies and low-mids were not at their right place, I was completely lost. To my ears, even if it was much more musical, it was completely unbalanced and very dull. I must precise that I always prefer airy and opened systems to dull and too warm ones. I also found the dac very fat, as if I was listening to a bad Sugden mk2 series if you know these amps. So last night I was not sure at all I would keep Shinkohs in the dac.


 
   
  I think it depends in some measure the entire audio system. I had no impression of this kind of sound that you have described here, or at least not in this way. I felt that on the contrary, the sound became more airy, and...no way dull! I find it very strange that you said here from this point of view. I suggest you see what happens in about ten days, maybe change something.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I think it depends in some measure the entire audio system. I had no impression of this kind of sound that you have described here, or at least not in this way. I felt that on the contrary, the sound became more airy, and...no way dull! I find it very strange that you said here from this point of view. I suggest you see what happens in about ten days, maybe change something.


 

 x 2


----------



## mako44

Well I really don't understand it was as obvious that the sound was more closed with shinkoh as it was more musical (singing, less metalic). Could it be a problem of wrong way ? I soldered them like this, and output caps like on the right photo :
   
                    
  By thr way I notice I soldered the 0.22uf mundorf cap the other way but anyway it was after Shinkohs.


----------



## mako44

I changed the way of the fuse and I must say it's really better. The problem I had with low frequencies for the beginning has disappeard and it's very well balanced now. It's nothing but this fuse completely got in the mess.
   
  It doesn't explain why I heard shinkoh res that dull first but I must admit that tonight, with the 0.22 mundorf cap breaking in, I have a extremely good definition and musicality. A real pleasure.
   
  I receive my new speakers tomorrow, it should be even better.


----------



## rocky500

I have ordered some 2.2uf & 0.22uf mundorf caps. Is there a direction(preference) these should face when I put them in?


----------



## rocMcBan

Question about this DAC: I have an opportunity to buy one at a  very decent price. Is it worth getting this with an average ( read budget) amplifier and speakers ?
  thanks in advance,
  rmcb


----------



## mako44

@ Rocky500 : I don't think so for these components but may be the others have advices as I don't know much in electronics. You won't regret, it substantially opened my dac (air, details, clarity...) and added energy to the music.
   
  @ RocMcBan : it depends on what you call budget and above all it depends on how sound your speakers and amplifiers. I would say stock havana is quite laid back, warm, and dark sounding so if you want to use it with a system quite similar (for example nad, denon, luxman) I wouldn't suggest this combination. At the opposite, if you have an opened, bright, clear or very detailed system it would fit much better on my mind. I think the stock Havana worths its price, not much more. For example I was using it with a 3000+ euros system (amp+speakers) and it was clearly not at the level. It should challenge a 700-800 euros cd I think but I never did a direct comparison so it's just an opinion. I could compare it to the vdac2 from Musical Fidelity and havana's better (hopefully, it's not the same price) but sounds completely different : less neutral, more analogic. Hope it can help you


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





rocmcban said:


> Question about this DAC: I have an opportunity to buy one at a  very decent price. Is it worth getting this with an average ( read budget) amplifier and speakers ?
> thanks in advance,
> rmcb


 
  About a year ago, I compared Havana with Lavry DA10 and I remember that Havana had a high note of texture, musicality from Lavry (I mention that I had just changed only the tube and output capacitors). I realized listening to headphones: Meier-Audio PREHEAD-I>>Senheiser HD650, and STAX "Signature". However, to put in the full value potential, it must have balance in full quality audio setup. In dynamic and electrostatic headphones systems I think that is fully justified.
  As you climb the rest of the line audio quality standard, begin to justify increasingly the change of stock components..


----------



## mako44

Hi all,
   
  I just soldered the 2200uf Elna Silmic 1 (Ros) into the dac & the 1000uf one is a silmic 2 RFS. It's not easy to compare as my speakers are new and breaking in so I don't know them very well but for the moment I mainly notice a thicker (may be too much as there is something "heavy" in the sound), more textured and warmer sound. But I must let them break in, I guess they improve with time like Mundorf output/input caps.
   
  Now I must choose the seven 0.22uf caps and I hesitate a lot. I saw Auricap works fine with Silmic and that others stayed with different ones, but did you tried this ones :
   
- Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Cap 
- Clarity Cap MR Polypropylene capacitors
- Jupiter HT BeesWax
- Jantzen Audio
- Amp hom paper in oil
   
   
It's really exciting to imagine all the different combinations, the problem is the cost...!  For the moment Intertechnik audyn are my favourites in theory but I'd like to knon if you tried them or have better suggestions (well I dream of Duelund caps but it's completely out of budget...). 
   
I wonder if I'm not going to try Black gates or similar caps for the 2200 ones as well instead of Silmic to try a clearer/thiner sound. I precise that I mainly made my choice with Humble homemade comments.


----------



## mako44

Thanks for the info about Auricap' strands but I think I would try Claritycap MR caps with Silmic to add more air, separate intruments and open everything.
   
  For the moment they sound a bit too warm for me, I wonder if I'm not going to test Black Gate caps (or something clear, neutral)  instead of Silmic and then for 0.22uf : 
  - either Intertechnik Audyn True Copper for harmonics, spatiality, air, but a bit of warmth
  - or Jupiter HT Beeswax for more or less the same reasons but different tonality.
   
  I'm curious of those 2 combinations, can be nice to try. It would give something open, airy, detailed but musical with some warmth, at least I imagine it like this....


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





fathead said:


> Jupiter is a good choice. They are not too thick or warm sounding, they have a nice lushness to them and are definitely very open and clear.
> I used them instead of the Russian Mica Caps.


 


  He good idea ! I could try something like :
   
  - 2200uf Black Gate NX instead of Silmic ROS
  - 0.22uf [size=x-small]Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Cap[/size]
  [size=x-small]- and jupiter caps instead of silver mica.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]Audyn True copper are already a bit warm so I don't know if it may be a good combination but I keep this in mind, it may worth a try as I'm attracted by Jupiter caps too.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]I understand why Robeeert said it needs hundreds of changes to achieve the goal, this "game" can cost more than the dac itself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/size]


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> [size=x-small]I understand why Robeeert said it needs hundreds of changes to achieve the goal, this "game" can cost more than the dac itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 This is crazy, of course. Once you have changed the stock components, keep them! However there are higher quality. Otherwise, another consideration would be better, I think, change of the dac. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  The overall quality of sound depends on the rest of the system...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


loserica said:


> This is crazy, of course. Once you have changed the stock components, keep them! However there are higher quality.


 


  The aim of the upgrade is to achieve the best sound you like not application of the highest quality components.
  The components must fit to one another, it's a hard job.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Quote:
> The aim of the upgrade is to achieve the best sound you like not application of the highest quality components.
> The components must fit to one another, it's a hard job.


 

 Absolutely, You're right Robert. I just wanted to minimize the financial costs with a wise advice and at the same time to encourage me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Tending to the best possible sound is not an easy way...
   What good is that there are some on this forum, who tested different combinations before and who can give competent advice to those who follow them! I appreciate it and thank him once again (Your advice helped me more).
   
  I will change the transformer with R-Core. What do you suggest that would be better: to keep the capacitors (C5, C25) or remove them completely?
  Nice thank you,


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I will change the transformer with R-Core. What do you suggest that would be better: to keep the capacitors (C5, C25) or remove them completely?
> Nice thank you,


 

  
  I suggest you to listen to the music with and without the cap and then decide. Especially C5 is important. You can leave C25 on its place - do not touch it.
   
  I have another configuration of caps (mostly BG - they are dark, removing c5 gave me more air and better treble that BGs dimmed).
  You may prefer C5 on its place.
   
  When you feel the sound is too dark after installing the R-Core, don't hesitate and remove C5.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> What good is that there are some on this forum, who tested different combinations before and who can give competent advice to those who follow them! I appreciate it and thank him once again (Your advice helped me more).


 

 Exact, your trials and comments at all helped me a lot ! Anyway, I wouldn't have started that without all your tests and comments, I really thank you for this. My dac sounds incredibly better now, it's a real pleasure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So a big thanks
   
   
  SGM silver micas are on their way and I install Shottky diodes tomorrow, so the sound will still change. This weekend my reseller lend me what is supposed to be my next amp so I will be abble to judge better how the dac fits with my future system. And what 0.22uf caps would be the best for me according to what I'll hear. Important step I guess as it seems these caps will give the final touch/tonality I want.


----------



## LionelH2

Just finished the Schottky diode/Shinkoh resistor/3300uf Tonerex PS cap upgrade.  Much much cleaner vocals, whole presentation sounds so smooth and effortless.  Thanks guys!!!  Im done.


----------



## mako44

I can imagine the huge improvement you feel if you changed everything at once, enjoy ! It's a nice combination, let the Elna break in a bit, it will be better in 1 or 2 days.
   
  I installed the Shottky diodes two days ago. To make short it's more musical, more natural (instruments sound more real), more refined (something I was waiting fot the beginning to really make the havana a higher class dac), and softer. I love them. Violins, sax, voices and so on are very nice now (it was still a bit harsh and metalic sounding before).
   
  However I noticed mines are not the same than on the photos I saw on this forum. Mines doesn't have the silver color at the top but are totally black : http://fr.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C3D02060Fvirtualkey57280000virtualkey941-C3D02060F. I don't know if it's a lower class ones but they sound really good.
   
  Installation notes : the ones I bought are less large than original havana diodes and thus were not that easy to put properly. I also had to enlarge (a little bit) the holes in the dac as wires were too thick. But nothing impossible don't worry and it worths it !


----------



## LionelH2

Agree with everything you pointed out.  The DAC sounds very fluid and smooth, the highs have no harshness or "fuzziness".  The diodes were somewhat of a challenge, as you say, physically much larger and different that the stock diodes.


----------



## mako44

Sorry fathead but you have nothing I need.
   
  I'm still looking for what caps I'm going to buy for my next change but before can you tell me how much important is the change of the seven 0.1uf caps ?
   
  I hesitate between several ones like Jupiter HT beeswax and Amp Hom Copper paper in oil (more neutral) and as Jupiters are quite earthy I'm planning to mix them with the Amp hom (because my hifi system is not particularly airy currently). But I wonder if the impact on sound of this change is significant enough to mix 0.1uf caps together. Do you think it's a good idea to mix them or is it better to enforce the complete specifities of one cap model (in case of the change is not that important on the sound) ?
   
  Same question said differently : if I put only 3 jupiter caps (0.1uf), do you think I will hear them or I need to put the seven ones for that.
   
  P.S : I guess most of you know Jon L. caps review but it can be very useful for the others. He gives his opinion on many different caps after having tested them : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0411/capacitor2.htm


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I suggest you to listen to the music with and without the cap and then decide. Especially C5 is important. You can leave C25 on its place - do not touch it.
> 
> I have another configuration of caps (mostly BG - they are dark, removing c5 gave me more air and better treble that BGs dimmed).
> You may prefer C5 on its place.
> ...


 


  
  I agree, this is a very significant change but depends on your system and configuration. With my usual amp it was not good at all because this one is alreay very opened and quite clear. With the amp I'm testing this weekend removing the c5 cap is a must as the amp is duller and earthier.
   
  I'll put a Clarity cap MR here to see what it makes because they're hugely opened (they may be a bit too big to fit I'll see). I guess the best is no cap at all but if they are there for security reasons I prefer to take no risks.
   
  By the way unfortunately Amp hom caps are definitively too long to fit into the Havana. That's the ones I mainly wanted too bad :/.... So I decided to replace them with Clarity caps MR and mix them with Jupiter HT Beeswax to test. I wanted to test some more but they don't have them at Hificollective.


----------



## mako44

Yes I'll buy 7 0.1uf jupiter caps and 3 Clarity MR and then test different configurations. Regarding values 1000vdc is it too much to replace 0.1uf 250v film caps ? I saw the Duelund Alexander caps are not that expensive at hificollective and well rated on forums so it could be another option to Clarity cap.


----------



## rocky500

Thanks everyone for a great thread.
  Got some more parts today. Installed the MCaps, Clarity and changed c6 fron 47uf to 100uf for added bass.
  I did this with the more afordable caps and so far with only half an hour listening I'm impressed. Hopefully will only get better.
  I think I'm finished for now though.
  Pic under hood.

   
  I also got a MCap for the 0.22uf and might try that after a while instead of the clarity cap.(It is quite large though) But right now it is sounding great.


----------



## rocky500

Thanks fathead.
  I have some dac chips coming from a mate. Also some other tubes to try.
  I was unsure which Schottky Diodes to get so left them for now. Might lsten for a few hundred hours and then look at them again.


----------



## rocky500

mako44 it looks like higher voltage is fine. Its just that they are normally larger and harder to fit in the same place sometimes.
  http://www.niccomp.com/help/capsubguide.asp
  Voltage Ratings (VDC or VAC) : 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*Substitution Rule:** A component with a higher voltage rating may be used in place of, or as a substitute for, a lower voltage rated component*
 i.e… 1000V rated part can replace 500V, 250V or 100V rated part
 i.e… 500V rated part can replace 250V , 100V or 50V rated part
 i.e… 250V rated part can replace 100V, 50V or 25V rated part


----------



## rocky500

I found these from our local supplier who has free freight here in Australia.
  Schottky Diodes.
http://au.element14.com/infineon/idv02s60c/diode-schottky-600v-2a-to220fp/dp/1844978
  Reverse Recovery Time trr Max: 10ns
   
  These look alright?
  8x would be $27 AU
   
  or these
  http://au.element14.com/cree/c3d02060a/diode/dp/1715186


----------



## mako44

I completely agree with Fathead I really encourage you to install Schottky diodes they're really great and just add good things without unbalancing the dac. Your first link is ok according to me but nobody tried this brand I think (we both bought Cree). There's no values on your second link so I can't say.
   
  If you want to be sure I bought this ones on mouser (and you can also buy K chips there) : http://fr.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C3D02060Fvirtualkey57280000virtualkey941-C3D02060F
   
   
  Thanks for the info about voltage but in fact I don't know what to do now... With the amp I had this weekend - and I ordered - the dac sounded perfect (well it can always be better) in the sense it was very well balanced, natural sounding, refined and so on. May be just very slightly too clear so I really hesitate to change something else. I'm afraid the sound will be too clear if I add Jupiter or Clarity film caps now. I didn't put Silver mica neither.
   
  I guess it would be better with Jupiter caps for example instead of stock caps in the absolute but I risk to loose the balance. I'm a bit confused on what to do.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Thanks for the info about voltage but in fact I don't know what to do now... With the amp I had this weekend - and I ordered - the dac sounded perfect (well it can always be better) in the sense it was very well balanced, natural sounding, refined and so on. May be just very slightly too clear so I really hesitate to change something else. I'm afraid the sound will be too clear if I add Jupiter or Clarity film caps now. I didn't put Silver mica neither.
> 
> I guess it would be better with Jupiter caps for example instead of stock caps in the absolute but I risk to loose the balance. I'm a bit confused on what to do.


 

 @mako44,
   Can you give me more details about how the sound evolved from the first day, after changing the output capacitors?  After several reflections, I think I will change V-Cap OIMP with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Increasingly beginning to understand what he said earlier Robert, comparing the two capacitors. I'm sure that Mundorf gives a touch of pleasant listening tone, superior texture and a more musical sound. Amp Ohm (polyester in oil aluminium foil) caps are too long and don't fit inside, Jupiter HT BeesWax (2,2uF) no longer found in stock and Duelund VSF Cooper are too expensive. I think, Mundorf are the right choice.
  Thank's!


----------



## mako44

Hi Ioserica, you didn't received my pm ? Here's what I wrote with some more details :
   
  I bought these ones : http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/supsgo090-22uf-1000v-supreme-silvergoldoil-p-3967.html
   
  I'm extremely happy with them, they mainly improved dynamics and opening. They're clear, with lot of details, very large soundstage and very nice highs. I would say sparkling highs, but can even be very slightly bright according to me depending on the rest of your system. In fact I heard a big overall improvement (separation of instruments, depth...). Timbers sound good to my ears. Good textures as well according to me : doesn't sound thin at all (but not too thick neither).
   
  You won't regret as they're really great but I don't know how much better they are vs v-caps and I didn't have the opportunity to compare them to any other.
   
  To fit them I cuted the wires of original caps and soldered them to Mundorf wires but nothing more special. As they're a big large one of the caps will be higher than the other but it's not a problem. They're not difficult to install. You can see photos of Robert's dac with these caps around the page 96 or so of this thread.
   
  I didn't compare to other caps but it's sure they're really good.
   
  On this page you can read reviews of Jon L. about Mundorf SG and SO (I guess SGO are a kind of mix of both, sort of smooth Silver/gold) : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor2.htm . Don't hesitate to ask if you want more precisions 
   
  PS : my 0.22uf cap is also Mundorf SGO.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Hi Ioserica, you didn't received my pm ? Here's what I wrote with some more details :
> I bought these ones : http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/supsgo090-22uf-1000v-supreme-silvergoldoil-p-3967.html
> I'm extremely happy with them, they mainly improved dynamics and opening. They're clear, with lot of details, very large soundstage and very nice highs. I would say sparkling highs, but can even be very slightly bright according to me depending on the rest of your system. In fact I heard a big overall improvement (separation of instruments, depth...). Timbers sound good to my ears. Good textures as well according to me : doesn't sound thin at all (but not too thick neither).
> You won't regret as they're really great but I don't know how much better they are vs v-caps and I didn't have the opportunity to compare them to any other.
> ...


 

 Thank You, the effort to write. V-Cap OIMP are wholly decent capacitors but I think its worth it to change with Mundorf. It seems that Mundorf Supreme is the cream on the cake..
  These days I felt a real difference to the sound, very nice: an extension to the entire frequency spectrum, a better position depth of instruments (audio-layering), higher decay and obviously, a more refined texture of sound! The voice, the instruments have body and better stage presence than before. On the electrostatic headphone system, the transparent sound (life-like feeling) and details are outstanding!! I think this is due primarily running-capacitors and probably Shinkoh resistances have evolved inside the dac. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, they do a very good game with Schottky diodes.
   
  The R-Core transformer is on the way..
   
  PS: To give Havana a _"high-end touch"_, after you finish with all the changes inside, I recommend you change the stock RCA connectors with WBT Ag (Ms Metal nut) pure silver and DH Labs silver hook up wire. Is also important the change of stock input SP/Dif with BNC conector, to get a slightly better impedance. The source and transport are again, _very _important!! I am extremely pleased of the work done AR-T Legato and iMac Apple with audio player that runs on Macintosh.
  Legato contribute decisively to articulate the bass, down to extremely low; low frequencies are so well controlled quantitatively and qualitatively, played convincingly. The sound is _very_ relaxed with Legato and has a similar play analog sources, beautiful and natural. But probably the decisive question of a transport capable of extremely low values ​​of jitter is something that bears audition to another level of quality: is the natural expression and the unmistakable perception of audio-layering! Without doubt, Legato is capable of playing audio layerin's such a level.
   
  I wish you pleasant listening!


----------



## LionelH2

This connector change is the one mod I have not done.  Can you describe the sonic improvement and compare to the other mods benefits?

  
  Quote: 





loserica said:


> Thank You, the effort to write. V-Cap OIMP are wholly decent capacitors but I think its worth it to change with Mundorf. It seems that Mundorf Supreme is the cream on the cake..
> These days I felt a real difference to the sound, very nice: an extension to the entire frequency spectrum, a better position depth of instruments (audio-layering), higher decay and obviously, a more refined texture of sound! The voice, the instruments have body and better stage presence than before. On the electrostatic headphone system, the transparent sound (life-like feeling) and details are outstanding!! I think this is due primarily running-capacitors and probably Shinkoh resistances have evolved inside the dac.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> This connector change is the one mod I have not done.  Can you describe the sonic improvement and compare to the other mods benefits?


 

 WBT (model mentioned) rate the best consistency in sound, additional clarity in sound, and it is logical to be so, because change and the wire one of pure silver! On the electrostatic system, on the first audition I noticed a good change at sound. Is related to homogeneous perception of sound (left right the channel). Before, with stock connectors, Havana sent a sound I must say, somewhat weak in this sense.  Its give a greater transparency in the sound. In a word, sound expression become more coherent, more transparent with WBT conectors, it's something that changing the dynamic, also.
  On the other hand, bnc connector depends on the implementation of transport and I think change is felt more strongly with RCA connectors). From my point of view this is an amendment to a similar impact as the chips (with K -grade), the electrolytic caps, etc...and deserve, while not exactly cheap. However, considering that I already upgrade many components is rather important to put quality connectors out of..


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





fathead said:


> WBT


 
  @fathead,
  They are Gold plate over copper - Cu (MS metal nut),
   
  Mine are "Pure silver" Ag (Ms Metal nut): I think the best impact in terms of opening sound! Havana needs superior transparent sound, a better resolution, and therefore are recommended the silver. There are of course two times more expensive, but I think it's worth the effort!


----------



## mako44

Your dacs are not too clear after changing all these components ? I didn't change stock film capacitors, nor put silver mica caps, r-core or high quality connectors yet and mine was quite clear in fact. I'd like more definition but fear the sound to be too bright or loose some magic by doing so.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Your dacs are not too clear after changing all these components ? I didn't change stock film capacitors, nor put silver mica caps, r-core or high quality connectors yet and mine was quite clear in fact. I'd like more definition but fear the sound to be too bright or loose some magic by doing so.


 


  what have you replaced so far?
  Choice of the components is not simple.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Your dacs are not too clear after changing all these components ? I didn't change stock film capacitors, nor put silver mica caps, r-core or high quality connectors yet and mine was quite clear in fact. I'd like more definition but fear the sound to be too bright or loose some magic by doing so.


 

 The sound is not bright at all after You change these components. I said, it's primarily a high coherence. Transparent sound should not necessarily escalate in sound brighter; is if you, a deep feeling of "life-like", a more realism.
  But depends on personal preference and only after comparative tests you can correctly conclude. 
   
  Actually I know two sources which recommend the connector upgrade: http://www.dms-audio.com/havana-dac-mods
  Chris Johnson from Parts ConneXion also recommended as a critical change, or to call at least medium importance.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Anyone heard this dac compared to the RWA dac?


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> With the amp I'm testing this weekend removing the c5 cap is a must as the amp is duller and earthier.


 


I am a bit unclear about what removing C5 or C25 capacitor entails. When you remove C5 or C25, do you need to run a hookup wire to complete the circuit?
   
Also, will 2 Watt versions of the Audio Note Tantalum resistors work, or do you need to stick with 1 watt versions? I read somewhere that the 2 watt versions are supposed to sound better...


----------



## kkqewl

Hi,
   
  No need to run any hook up wire etc, just remove C5 and C25, they are only being used as bypass caps.
   
  Also no difference between 2W and 1W resistors in this application just use 1W,   2 watts are much bigger in size and would be a pain to fit in easily.    
   

  
  Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I am a bit unclear about what removing C5 or C25 capacitor entails. When you remove C5 or C25, do you need to run a hookup wire to complete the circuit?
> 
> Also, will 2 Watt versions of the Audio Note Tantalum resistors work, or do you need to stick with 1 watt versions? I read somewhere that the 2 watt versions are supposed to sound better...


----------



## mako44

@ Kendrab : I agree with Kkqewl.
   
  @ the others :
   
  I compared the havana with a Primare cd31 cd amp this afternoon : 2500 euros http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=9566
   
  At the stage of my upgrades in the dac, the cd31 is still better : slightly more refined and above all more opened. Lack of highs and clarity was the first main impression, the havana sounded too dense/thick compared to Primare. Depending on recordings mids could also appear too proeminent but I believe it's exactly because of the lack of highs we felt. A bit les details. It results a narrower soundstage and thick sound in comparison.
   
  Second difference music is a bit more natural and liquid (what i called refined) with primare. Havana can appear slighlty rough. It's nicer on the primare.
   
  I also noticed a better accuracy (a bit) regarding instruments placement.
   
  We both had the same impressions. In conclusion, the primare is still more musical than havana, more high end. It's quite noticeable, especially clarity and opening.
   
  Havana was plugged on coax audioquest cable and both were on an audio research LS1 pre-amp and PEL Kantor S2 speakers.
   
  What I've changed in the havana at the moment : k-chips, silmic ps caps, mundorf sgo output caps, mundorf sgo input cap, shinkoh res, shottky diodes and removed c5 cap.
   
  I must precise that the room was quite dull with carpets and pieces of furniture, mine is quite brilliant and I don't feel that lack of highs at home. But direct comparison clearly gives cd31 as a winner. I hope I chose the proper english words and you can understand what I said.
   
   I'm waiting for my new amp for the moment, so I don't change anything more and will start again after (siilver mica caps, film caps....).


----------



## rocky500

mako44 have you ran your Dac for 200+ hours since putting in the mundorf sgo caps?
  I heard they have a long breakin time.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I compared the havana with a Primare cd31 cd amp this afternoon : 2500 euros http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=9566
> At the stage of my upgrades in the dac, the cd31 is still better : slightly more refined and above all more opened. Lack of highs and clarity was the first main impression, the havana sounded too dense/thick compared to Primare. Depending on recordings mids could also appear too proeminent but I believe it's exactly because of the lack of highs we felt. A bit les details. It results a narrower soundstage and thick sound in comparison.
> Second difference music is a bit more natural and liquid (what i called refined) with primare. Havana can appear slighlty rough. It's nicer on the primare.
> I also noticed a better accuracy (a bit) regarding instruments placement.
> We both had the same impressions. In conclusion, the primare is still more musical than havana, more high end. It's quite noticeable, especially clarity and opening.


 
   
  Instead, the audition on electrostatic headphones with Havana is nice, very relaxed. However, I noticed before doing all up-grades the lack of transparency, sound somewhat dark, lacked expression, and of course, lack detail and clarity, evident in the manner in which I expect to be the sound in these chapters; ...too many gaps,
  Probably a Bendix (1964 production) would open the sound in detail level and transparency!
   
  PS: I heard for the first time this weekend Havana on a speaker setup. It was a system of approx. 10.000 euros: Audio Alchemy Mark 7 with ScanSpeak and Rockna Audio (Wavequest). The system was equipped with a performing power conditioner and good cables. I was impressed with how it performed Havana. 
  Emphasize again that something must be remembered here: Havana is highly dependent the transport capable lowered value of jitter (rejection native due to poor!!). Very wide criticism..
  Here may result spectacular differences in terms of sound; then the power source, etc..Every detail counts.
  ... and last but not least, the approximately two hundred hours of running capacitors.


----------



## LionelH2

Agreed.  When I added the Sonic Diverter USB/SPDIF converter ahead of the Havana, the improvement across the board was amazing.
  
  Quote: 





loserica said:


> Instead, the audition on electrostatic headphones with Havana is nice, very relaxed. However, I noticed before doing all up-grades the lack of transparency, sound somewhat dark, lacked expression, and of course, lack detail and clarity, evident in the manner in which I expect to be the sound in these chapters; ...too many gaps,
> Probably a Bendix (1964 production) would open the sound in detail level and transparency!
> 
> PS: I heard for the first time this weekend Havana on a speaker setup. It was a system of approx. 10.000 euros: Audio Alchemy Mark 7 with ScanSpeak and Rockna Audio (Wavequest). The system was equipped with a performing power conditioner and good cables. I was impressed with how it performed Havana.
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Probably a Bendix (1964 production) would open the sound in detail level and transparency!


 
   
  If you're looking for much better transparancy this is the tube for you. Someone who prefers warmth should choose JWWE396a or any Bendix from fifties.
  Differences are huge between Bendixes.


----------



## LionelH2

1964 Bendix 6385 is awesome.  JW WE 396 just not engaging in my setup.

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> If you're looking for much better transparancy this is the tube for you. Someone who prefers warmth should choose JWWE396a or any Bendix from fifties.
> Differences are huge between Bendixes.


----------



## mako44

@Rocky : I can't say if mundorf caps runned 200 hours but at least 150 (or not far) and may be 200+ (difficult to say). Anyway I'm pretty sure breaking in is over.
   
  @ all : comparison with Primare has been done with a 2c51 ericsson from 1949 tube in the dac. I also have the jw we396a but I don't like it that much as I find it a bit too warm and even fat in the lows or low-mids with my setup. Keep in mind everything is a question of synergy, for example as I said, at home I don't feel the lack of highs we heard in my friend's apartment. In his room it was noticeably unbalanced towards the lows, whereas in my room, which is noticeably brighter, it sounds well balanced.
   
  However transparency, refinment, smoothness, musicality were better with Primare, Especially transparency/clarity and this is easily improvable in my dac with silver mica caps, film caps and so on. The gap was less important regarding refinment and smoothness. Remember also if you don't know it that this Primare cd31 is especially clean, clear and detailed while refined and smooth : it's a very nice sounding cd, I love it, so hard to compete for a 700 euros dac, even tweaked.
   
  I plan to buy the audiophileo usb/spdif once the output power version will be done as well and will make a new comparison after changing silver mica and film caps.


----------



## mako44

By the way I received SGM silver mica caps few days ago. I don't know if it's normal but I ordered 3 of them on ebay and received something like 25 0.01uf and 25 0.1 uf ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'll be abble to open an international trade company with that ^^


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> @ Kendrab : I agree with Kkqewl.
> 
> @ the others :
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  If you are expecting extreme transparancy and musicality from tha Havana I think you should pay attention to:
  first of all - 1964 Bendix 6385. Not any Ericsson (even gold pins) or not JWWE396a or not
  any of other replacement of 5670 family can give you better transparancy.
  Mundorf sgio 0,22uF, try to put there FT3 Russian (the most transparent and musical of those I tried there),
  Output caps - Mundorfs silver gold in oil (they are great but..) - (better transparancy you get when you put Jensen's pure copper foil, paper in oil type caps there, smaller values because of big sizes)
  Elna PS caps, I wouldn't trust Chinese sellers. 
  K-grade chips only from Korea or Japan (originals olny !!!).
  Silver mica 0,01uF from Russia to C12 place - important.
  Remember the new caps need 200h of burn-in time at least, black gates even more.
  For direct comparisons with CD-players you must use very good digital cable. (power cable is a very important too)
  None of 2500Euro priced cd-player should be a competition for the appropriate tweaked Havana, but it is a matter of taste and a good synergy.


----------



## LionelH2

Although i was highly skeptical, the power cord does make a noticeable difference.  I just bought the [size=12pt]SHUNYATA - VENOM 3 [/size]cable, around $100USD.  You wont believe the improvement.  I have never believed in aftermarket power cables, but now I do.

  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> If you are expecting extreme transparancy and musicality from tha Havana I think you should pay attention to:
> first of all - 1964 Bendix 6385. Not any Ericsson (even gold pins) or not JWWE396a or not
> any of other replacement of 5670 family can give you better transparancy.
> Mundorf sgio 0,22uF, try to put there FT3 Russian (the most transparent and musical of those I tried there),
> ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





lionelh2 said:


> Although i was highly skeptical, the power cord does make a noticeable difference.  I just bought the [size=12pt]SHUNYATA - VENOM 3 [/size]cable, around $100USD.  You wont believe the improvement.  I have never believed in aftermarket power cables, but now I do.


 

 Lionel,
  No extreme quality cables, no hi-end sound. Try to borrow from some-one shunyata anaconda, you'll see what happens to Havana's sound, you'll never send it back ),
  You will not recognize the DAC, sound stage will be breath taking. And the timbre......something to die for.
   
)


----------



## Riffle

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> If you are expecting extreme transparancy and musicality from tha Havana I think you should pay attention to:
> first of all - 1964 Bendix 6385. Not any Ericsson (even gold pins) or not JWWE396a or not
> any of other replacement of 5670 family can give you better transparancy.
> Mundorf sgio 0,22uF, try to put there FT3 Russian (the most transparent and musical of those I tried there),
> ...


 


  

 This may be a dumb question, but if the tube is just a buffer and is not required is there an easy way to bypass it and complete the circuit? I don't really want to solder, but maybe there is an off the shelf wire type jumper you could plug into the tube socket or a way to jumper it with your own wire. Any ideas or direction here would be appreciated. I like to rotate a few tubes in the Havana, but I'd like to see for myself if the most transparent sound comes from no tube at all.
   
  Thanks,
  Steve


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





riffle said:


> This may be a dumb question, but if the tube is just a buffer and is not required is there an easy way to bypass it and complete the circuit? I don't really want to solder, but maybe there is an off the shelf wire type jumper you could plug into the tube socket or a way to jumper it with your own wire. Any ideas or direction here would be appreciated. I like to rotate a few tubes in the Havana, but I'd like to see for myself if the most transparent sound comes from no tube at all.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve


 
   
  I'm sure there is a possibility to bypass the tube. But what for to buy a tube DAC?
  Tube gives some nice charactaristic we like and takes part in the amplification in the case of Havana.
  There are many transparent tubes on the market like WE 300B, CCa made by Siemens, 1964 Bendix 6385 and many others.
   
  Final sonic result depends on all parts of audio system.


----------



## Riffle

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I'm sure there is a possibility to bypass the tube. But what for to buy a tube DAC?
> Tube gives some nice charactaristic we like and takes part in the amplification in the case of Havana.
> There are many transparent tubes on the market like WE 300B, CCa made by Siemens, 1964 Bendix 6385 and many others.
> 
> Final sonic result depends on all parts of audio system.


 

 I have a transparent tube, the JJ-6386 and several others that are probably a notch below the Bendix 6385. Why buy the Havana if you need to replace every part, why buy a tube DAC and bypass the tube? The answer is the same, because we can, it's a hobby and it's fun. I guess my reason to want to bypass the tube is the same as yours and everyone else's who changes from the stock setup. I want to tweak it to learn and see if I get better sound. Is there an easy way to bypass the tube, has anyone tried? I also notice I prefer every tube I put in immediately after insertion and like them less after they have warmed up 30-45 minutes later. I think bypassing the tube will help me confirm this perception or chalk it up to the imperfect ear brain circuit.
   
  Thanks,
  Steve


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





riffle said:


> I also notice I prefer every tube I put in immediately after insertion and like them less after they have warmed up 30-45 minutes later. I think bypassing the tube will help me confirm this perception or chalk it up to the imperfect ear brain circuit.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve


 

 The tube's warm up time is max 3 minutes. The sound changes bacause the transformer's and other components's temperature is changing for the first 60min. Sometimes even longer.


----------



## Riffle

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> The tube's warm up time is max 3 minutes. The sound changes bacause the transformer's and other components's temperature is changing for the first 60min. Sometimes even longer.


 
   
  Thanks for the info, the transformer might be an issue. I notice what I thought was a tube issue even when the dac was warmed up fully and I take 2 or 3 minutes to swap out a tube, but I guess things besides the tube could cool off in a few minutes. The transformer upgrade is over my head, I've limited myself to tubes, chips and output caps. Maybe there's an easy way to make it battery powered? I seem to remember a previous post where someone did so.


----------



## Pingfloid

Hi! I have just received my Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I'm sure there is a possibility to bypass the tube. But what for to buy a tube DAC?
> Tube gives some nice charactaristic we like and takes part in the amplification in the case of Havana.
> There are many transparent tubes on the market like WE 300B, CCa made by Siemens, 1964 Bendix 6385 and many others.


 
   
  [size=10pt]I agree with you: we buy a tube DAC because we like the tube flavor. But for this reason, I would like to try non ”transparent” tubes. [/size]
   
  [size=10pt]My Havana came with a GE JAN-5670W. I still have to evaluate it. But in the meantime, are there some warm and beautifully colored alternatives to that tube? I really do not care if it they gently roll off the highs and they introduce artifacts and distortion, as far as they are pleasant to the ear.[/size]


----------



## s1rrah

Try a NOS JW 396A (be sure and get the JW branded variant as these are the best, military tubes) ... not as detailed or "airy" as say, the Bendix 6385 but excellent tonality and still on the detailed, clean side of the tube spectrum in the Havana. In fact, others may argue the fact, but owning both the Bendix 6385 (I had three of the Bendix's at the time) and the JW 396A, I could  find very small differences, only):
   
   

   
   
  ...
   
   
  My other (by far) favorite tube in the Havana is the Bendix 6385, a gorgeous, very crisp, detailed sounding tube with lots of "air" and "space between the notes". It's pricey at  $140 to $400.00 (depending on source) but worth it in my estimation:
   

   
   
  ...
   
  The stock tube (GE) is okay . .. but compared to the two above? It's dry, grainy and lifeless.
   
  BTW: Tubeworld.com stocks both of the one's mentioned above (pricey but he's consistent and quality is always top notch): www.tubeworld.com
   
  And also ... your not really going to get overly powerful influence from *any* tube in the Havana as it is simply a subtle buffer circuit. Were the tubes used in a drive/gain capacity at all, this might be different but as designed, I think the tube is intended to make very small/subtle influences on the Havana's sound. I think the light touch nicely accompanies the already somewhat laid back, musical approach of the NOS DAC topology... post some thoughts once you listen a bit.
   
  Cheers,
   
  Joel


----------



## Pingfloid

Thank you for the recommendation Joel. And also: thank you for burning the Havana for me! 
  It has arrived in perfect condition after the long trip from TX to BKK. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I do not think I am going to buy tubes for the Havana at those prices. I have already spent a lot of money collecting many different tubes for the Sense-G3, Cavalli CTH and LaFigaro 332C. From all those, the Sense G3 (aka Earmax Pro or Morgan Jones) is my favourite. It is the most non-fatigue and warm headphone amp that I’ve tried so far. I am impatient to connect it to the Havana this weekend.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *classfolkphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
   
  Right now listen to a Bendix 6385 from '1964 and I'm really excited about how it sounds! (Apple iMac>>AR-T Legato>>Havana MAxx>>eXStatA by Alex Cavalli>>Stax SR-404LE "Limited Ed.")
  of well characterized: _"full of life and truthful sound, very analogue sounding tube, extremely detailed, widestaged, faster bass response and better dynamics"!_ compared with Western Electric (JW) 396A (cryo).
  It give class even WE (JW) 396A and the differences are even more obvious on the electrostatic systems.
  There really incredible space between instruments, lots of "air"!
   
  Bendix 6385 from '1964 is gorgeous!
   
  PS: Now I understand what you said in a somewhat old post: with Russian Silver Mica, Shinkoh Tantalum and Bendix 6385, Havana is in another class...
   
Thank You, Robert !!!


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Thank you for the recommendation Joel. And also: thank you for burning the Havana for me!
> It has arrived in perfect condition after the long trip from TX to BKK.
> 
> 
> ...


 


  BTW Pingfloyd ... a JW branded WE396A is just about one of the best tubes you can get for the Havana and you can get a really decent one for 40 to 60 dollars at a variety of places online. Tubeworld has some that are reasonably priced.... fyi.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Right now listen to a Bendix 6385 from '1964 and I'm really excited about how it sounds!
> 
> Bendix 6385 from '1964 is gorgeous!
> 
> ...


 

  You quoted my very old post. Now I have quite different rig.
 I'm glad you're fully satisfied with the Bendix 6385. JWWE396a and the Bendix 6385 are the best tubes for the Havana. I prefer bendix over the JWWE396a.
  The differences between these two are not big for some audiophiles, they are huge for me especially with electrostatic headphones.
  JWWE is definitely cheaper tube's upgrade solution.
   
  Loserica - Enjoy the new Havana!


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You quoted my very old post. Now I have quite different rig.
> I'm glad you're fully satisfied with the Bendix 6385. JWWE396a and the Bendix 6385 are the best tubes for the Havana. I prefer bendix over the JWWE396a.
> The differences between these two are not big for some audiophiles, they are huge for me especially with electrostatic headphones.


 

 Probably the effect of the tube will be much better if I will replace the output capacitors V-Cap OIMP with Mundorf SUPREME Silver/Gold/Oil.. I think there is a direct synergy between the tube and the output capacitors. If I have choose Mundorf, it would be an idea to change the 0,22 uf capacitor, also (with Mundorf Supreme). I have already the R-Core, but still waiting .. and after that, a well-deserved break.
   
  I noticed that Bendix 6385 sounds _great_ on jazz and classical music (with Stax)...and, after about 20-30 hours, I confirm that the differences between WE (JW)396A and Bendix 6385 (from 1964) are huge!!! WAW! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 audition raised to another qualitative level.


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





niamex said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/bendix-6385-396a-5670-6cc42-/290517887394 - that is the real tube - no label 2c51
> Cheers


 


 Hi. What is wrong with the 2C51 label? The military Bendix Red Bank labeled 2C51 is available for $100. Is it worth?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Hi. What is wrong with the 2C51 label? The military Bendix Red Bank labeled 2C51 is available for $100. Is it worth?


 


  The 2C51 is also a very excellent choice ... generally, it shares all the finer qualities of the 6385 tube (which costs more). I found the two tubes to sound very very similar. And yes, I think it's worth the asking price of 100 dollars. Either that or the JW WE396A would be excellent replacement tubes without breaking the bank.
   
  Best...
  .joel


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> The 2C51 is also a very excellent choice ... generally, it shares all the finer qualities of the 6385 tube (which costs more). I found the two tubes to sound very very similar. And yes, I think it's worth the asking price of 100 dollars. Either that or the JW WE396A would be excellent replacement tubes without breaking the bank.
> 
> Best...
> .joel


 

 Bendix 2C51 is a very good tube,  but not as good as 6385. Is it worth a hundred? I think not.


----------



## Pingfloid

.


----------



## kendrab

I have been gathering info on modifying the Mdht Labs Havana Dac for a while. I like what people are saying about the modified versions. A round of purchases from here and on e-bay has got me pretty close.
   
  I am trying to build to a pretty high standard. This means I am using Blackgate capacitors wherever possible. I have the larger capacitors all on hand, and am just left to sort out the 0.1uf and 0.22uf ones.
   
  I see that some people are replacing the 0.1uf capacitors with Auricaps, and some are leaving them alone. I am wondering if the people who changed them out can comment on what that change gave them? Is there an added benefit to using a higher quality capacitor here, or is a minor upgrade to an Auricap XO or Hovland Supercap good enough?
   
  I see quite a few people are using the Mundorf Silver in Oil or Silver Gold in Oil to replace the stock 0.22uf250VDC capacitor. I have heard some great things about V-Caps CuTF capacitors, so am going to see what it can do here. It is pretty pricy, but hopefully it will be worth it.
   
  I am initially using a set of V-Cap OIMP 2.0 uF 250VDC output capacitors. I might eventually try using a pair of V-Cap TFTF or CuTF 0.068uf 600VDC capacitors as a bypass as per V-Cap recommendations.
   
  I am going with a set of WBT 0234 Right Angel PCB based Female RCA connectors to replace the OEM audio out connectors, and have a Vampire Wire Right Angle PCB BNC connector to replace the standard right angle RCA connector.
   
  I will have the parts all together this month, and will be taking it in to be professionally modified at my friend's electronic repair shop in early April. I should have it all together by mid-April, and then will give it a couple of weeks to break in.
   
  As a side note, I replaced the generic power cord I was using with this dac for an Audio Art 2 meter Power 1 cable, and the diffference was not subtle. It helped both the bass and treble regions, and made the sound noticeably more cohesive. I know some people swear by very high end power cables, but this one comes in at under $200 and is very well built (and is built in the USA to boot).


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> here is my list in order of importance:
> 1) Chips 2) tube 3) shinkoh res. 4) r-core 5) output caps 6) electrolytic caps 7) foil small caps 7) silver mica caps 8) diodes vishay 9) fuse


 
   
  I think the order is justified and well punctuated, the only explanation, I have not tested it yet the R-Core. Already knowing that Havana react positively to a better power supply, I think it will be a major change!
   
  Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I have been gathering info on modifying the Mdht Labs Havana Dac for a while. I like what people are saying about the modified versions. A round of purchases from here and on e-bay has got me pretty close.
> I am trying to build to a pretty high standard. This means I am using Blackgate capacitors wherever possible. I have the larger capacitors all on hand, and am just left to sort out the 0.1uf and 0.22uf ones.
> I see that some people are replacing the 0.1uf capacitors with Auricaps, and some are leaving them alone. I am wondering if the people who changed them out can comment on what that change gave them? Is there an added benefit to using a higher quality capacitor here, or is a minor upgrade to an Auricap XO or Hovland Supercap good enough?
> I see quite a few people are using the Mundorf Silver in Oil or Silver Gold in Oil to replace the stock 0.22uf250VDC capacitor. I have heard some great things about V-Caps CuTF capacitors, so am going to see what it can do here. It is pretty pricy, but hopefully it will be worth it.
> ...


 

 @kendrab,
  Auricaps are certainly better than stock-film (0,1uf/0.22uf) capacitors. They offer a superior sound texture. But, as said Robert, electrolytic (and add, film) capacitors have a somewhat secondary importance as a direct impact on the sound quality compared with these changes: Chips - K grade, tube: Bendix 6385 from 1964, Shinkoh Tantalum res., _R-Core_ and output-caps. On the other hand, Havana reacts pozitively to change connectors with top models (like WBT), and this is not very critical change, also. About bnc conector can say the same thing. But I cannot imagine Havana without them..
  I do not know what to say about the V-Cap TFTF or CuTF capacitors(as a bypass OIMP's). Although I am concerned the problem capacitors input / output, also. I am thinking more and more, a superior solution instead of OIMP's capacitors! So I was thinking to change them with Mundorf SUPREME Silver/Gold (SGOi). Who can help? I can not tell if in our case, V-cap TFTF/CuTF really worth the price inside Havana (!?..)


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Probably the effect of the tube will be much better if I will replace the output capacitors V-Cap OIMP with Mundorf SUPREME Silver/Gold/Oil.. I think there is a direct synergy between the tube and the output capacitors. If I have choose Mundorf, it would be an idea to change the 0,22 uf capacitor, also (with Mundorf Supreme). I have already the R-Core, but still waiting .. and after that, a well-deserved break.
> I noticed that Bendix 6385 sounds _great_ on jazz and classical music (with Stax)...and, after about 20-30 hours, I confirm that the differences between WE (JW)396A and Bendix 6385 (from 1964) are huge!!! WAW!
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Few words about Bendix (after about 50 hours): the strangest but very nice thing that happened is the increased resolution, while keeping body and weight in sound! I noticed something for stringed instruments like guitar, violin, viola, harp, piano.., string sound not too far detached from the body of the instrument. This is related to what I remembered, instruments and voice have more body than before, although the resolution, transparency of  sound and details are better. For example,  piano sounds very clean, clear, crystal sound. sounds, ambient noises are dying slow, progressive (improved decay). WE (JW)396A wasn't capable of it.
  The sound acquired a good stage positioning of instruments, a clearly perceptible layering and consistency in play (very coherent). 
  In parts of jazz, Bendix reveal what it is capable: the saxophone has body and transparency as well. Sound is warm and refined (obviously, the sound texture have raised to another level). Here is much "air" in the atmosphere listening.
  Percussion is well emphasized, with lots of details, very good separation between instruments and different frequencies.
  I am very, very pleased.


----------



## mako44

Back from holidays ! And I receive my new amp soon, great ! I wanted to buy the 6385 bendix tube but it was not available, for the moment my favourite one is the 2c51 ericsson from 50's which is very clean and opened with a very nice overall sound compared to the other ones I heard : very nice soundstage, depth, details and so on. JW we396a (1949)  is great too but too warm for me, however I understand why people love it, its sound is nice and can give a kind of magic to the music. I also tried the GE 5 stars 6386 (not JJ) but didn't like it that much : it's a kind of JW we396a, a bit less warm, but not as good as the western tube in many aspects. I would say we396a to be more refined. Both are much better than the stock tube anyway.
   
  Regarding silver mica input caps can you tell me how you installed them as I saw one of the holes is too small to fit the cap into whereas the other hole is large enough (horizontal). There is another horizontal hole, unused, just below the c14 engraved number, is it possible to sold the silver mica in this unused hole or do I have to enlarge the "original" hole ?


----------



## robeeert1

Makko,
  Do not enlarge the original holes! Use extension wires which fit the holes and solder the silver mica caps to them.


----------



## mako44

Thanks Robeeert, I don't like to do that a lot as extensions are not really a part of the component (not the same material for example) and I guess contacts and conductivity are not as good as only one component but well no choice here...


----------



## mako44

Done but **** I broke two copper foils around the holes... I wanted to go too fast and they've been away desoldering... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For the moment I don't hear obvious problems in the sound, I hope it's not too important.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Done but **** I broke two copper foils around the holes... I wanted to go too fast and they've been away desoldering...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  It is not important if the circuit is not broken off. Check all connections around.


----------



## mako44

Well for the few I see it doesn't look broken. I didn't have the time to listen to it long but it sounds ok hopefully. Next step : 0.1 uf film caps when I receive them !


----------



## Pingfloid

I have started testing an unused Raytheon CK5670. With only a couple of hours burning, the highs are more harsh than a veteran GE 5670. I will let the Raytheon burn for a couple of days befor futher consideration.
   
Anyone has experience comparing the Raytheon CK5670? In the list from Mhdt it is considered 2nd class, above the 3rd class GE 5670. So I hope that the sound will improve.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> I have started testing an unused Raytheon CK5670. With only a couple of hours burning, the highs are more harsh than a veteran GE 5670. I will let the Raytheon burn for a couple of days befor futher consideration.
> 
> Anyone has experience comparing the Raytheon CK5670? In the list from Mhdt it is considered 2nd class, above the 3rd class GE 5670. So I hope that the sound will improve.


 

 If you do not like it "at the first sight", the tube is not for you.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> If you do not like it "at the first sight", the tube is not for you.


 

 I would tend to agree with that. 
   
  BTW Pingfloyd... have you tried any other tubes other than the Raytheon? I personally have never heard the Raytheon tubes. Only tubes I've heard are the JW396A and the Bendix tubes (2C51 & 6385) ... I've liked them all. I also think the stock tube is okay...I mean, it doesn't sound real bad or anything...but the Bendix and the Western Electrics sound much better to my ear.
   
  Good luck.


----------



## mako44

I never heard the Raytheon no but I guess it will improve with some more hours of using. If you're brave enough to read the whole discussions you can find many comments about tubes with havana (may be you already did it). Here's some from different people :
   
  1) Bendix 6385 from 1964 - the most natural ever heard, detailed, very wide soundstage - the best
 2) Bendix 6385 from fifties - to me dry and lifeless, It has very strange characteristic, but some people like it much.
 3) JW 396a early fifties- very very nice sounding tube, my second favourite; May be a bit more enjoyable than Bendix 6385 50's
 4) Ericsson 396a - dark but first class tube
 5) tesla 6cc42 - warm, first class
   
  Bendix 6385 - Widest soundstage, bit thin sounding compared to Bendix 2c51 or JW 396a
 Bendix 2c51 - second widest soundstage, slightly fuller bodied middle than 6385
 JW 396a (50') - still very wide soundstage, the sweetest middle, smooth, analogue sounding
 Ericsson 2c51 (gold pin) - leaner sounding, balanced, fast, clear
   
  1) The bendix white boxed from late 60's : Dry and lifeless sound but very detailed and widestaged, not common at all, the highs are excellent, your ears are not being stung when the music's very loud. They can kick your ears. 
 2) bendix 1964 - full of life and truthful sound, very analogue sounding tube, extremely detailed, widestaged, close to JW WE396A from eary fifties but much more accurate,faster bass response, better dynamics.
 3) bendix from 1957, best in my opinion, refine and exquisite analogue very real sound. Probably superior to all 2c51's, very close to bendix 1964's
   
  LM Ericsson 2C51 Gold Pin. My favorite, smooth, detailed an involving. Brent Jesse is asking $100 for this tube. At the $25 I paid it's an absolute steal!
  GE 5-Star 5670WA - The detail champion, but this tube can sound a little thin an analytical on some vintage or vocal recordings.
  Bendix 2C51- This tube provides a very happy middle ground between the Ericsson and the GE 5-Star.
  1950's Raytheon JRP-5670 & 1964 CK-5670 Grey Plate Windmill Getter- A great tube top to bottom. Not quite as smooth or detailed as the Ericsson. For $7 this has the best price to performance I've found.
  1950's Tungsol 2C51 - This is a very rich, balanced tube. It would rank higher if not for the loss in detail at both frequency extremes.
  RCA Command - Maybe a notch below the Raytheon and Bendix in terms of detail. Overall a very good tube for the $7 these can be had for.
  WE396a - Too much mid emphasis for me. However, to my ear no tube sounds better with Beatles recordings and some other recordings of that era. I may have got a crap pair off of Ebay though.
  Havana stock tube - not bad at all, I used it for burn in.
   
  * note : JJ 6386 is also much appreciated


----------



## Pingfloid

[size=medium]Mako44, thank you very much for this concise resume about the tube reviews.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]So far I only have the stock GE 5670, the Raytheon CK5670, and a spare GE 5670 that I’ve bought for only $4 at Bangkok's Ban-Mor market. [/size]
   
  [size=medium]And I have just ordered a WE 396A/2C51 from Tube World:[/size]

 _[size=medium]Platinum tube 1950’s 396A/2C51 WE NOS D getter original box (326=1953) (37/26 and 38/26)[/size]_   
   
     Quote:


robeeert1 said:


> If you do not like it "at the first sight", the tube is not for you.


 

 [size=medium]Probably, but in this case this is not easy to decide, because I still have many other parameters to combine in order to get the best synergy from my gear.[/size]
   

 _[size=medium]Havana > Sense G3 [size=8pt](Telefunken ECC801S & E88CC Tesla Gold Ring Cz. Rep) [size=small]> HD650[/size][/size][/size]_
  [size=medium]                  Sweet, warm and non-fatigue. Very enjoyable for my personal taste. I find myself again listening music for hours, like on those old times before the CD players and the remote controls with _FF_ and _Skip Track _buttons were invented.[/size]
   

 _[size=medium]Havana > Cavalli CTH [size=8pt](Amperex Buggle Boy 6DJ8)[size=x-small] [/size][size=small]> HD650[/size][/size][/size]_
  [size=medium]                    A little bit more of soundstage, detail, and bass punch/definition than the G3. But I find the highs harsh and sound-fatiguing. Less harsh when I use the GE 5670 instead of the Raytheon at the Havana, as I have commented. I should try if it can be improved by replacing the MKS film caps at the CTH for PIO caps.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]I do not mind to scarify certain “analytical details” or “sparkness” for the sake of a warm and non-fatiguing sound. (I have spend few years doing music-production with the RME FF-400. The RME gives you enough analytical details, when monitoring through headphones, to generate a nasty migraine on your head. It is good for production, but not enjoyable for relaxed music listening) The ideal thing would be a combination of the sweetness of the G3 with the soundstage and bass definition of the CTH. [/size]
   
  [size=medium]I have not yet tried the Havana with my other headphone amps (La Figaro 332C, RME FF400 and Practical Devices XM6). And there are other parameters that I still have to combine: more than 30 different NOS tubes for the amplifiers, and a box full of capacitors.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]I will experiment with different combinations before jumping to the Bendix.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]There is no room for boredom. Like someone said: “so many tubes so little time”  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



[/size]


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> _[size=medium]Havana > Sense G3 [size=8pt](Telefunken ECC801S & E88CC Tesla Gold Ring Cz. Rep) [size=small]> HD650[/size][/size][/size]_
> [size=medium]                  Sweet, warm and non-fatigue. Very enjoyable for my personal taste. I find myself again listening music for hours, like on those old times before the CD players and the remote controls with _FF_ and _Skip Track _buttons were invented.[/size]


 
   
  So you should like the WE 396a you ordered, this is exactly that kind of sound. A bit expensive compared to others but quality is here, you can't really find better for havana if you want something warm and sweet (except bendix may be but they're so expensive, I'm not sure the difference of price worth it).


----------



## loserica

Let's talk about power supply. What power-cables use / have used for Havana? (I intend to change soon the transformer with R-Core and thought to a PS-Audio PerfectWave AC5, or Wireworld Electra 5.2 power cord...Budget is somewhere around $ 400. I already have a filter Fisch Audiotechnik). I think that Havana is sensitive to power supply.


----------



## mako44

My power cable is a Clearer Audio Copper Line one I bought on futureshop : http://www.futureshop.co.uk/the-copperline-power-cable-iec-1m-p-2871.html. However I unfortunately can't give you details on it as I didn't make comparisons with other ones so I guess it won't help you a lot. All I can say is it works and don't feel necessary to change it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Other subect : My new amp is a bit duller than my last one (it was a Primare i30, quite detailed and opened) so I replaced the 3 silver mica caps by 0.1uf Clarity Caps MR, it completely revolutioned my DAC (and hifi system) ! Silver mica caps gave clarity but Clarity MR caps go 3 times more far... Improvements are very big regarding resolution, spatiality and live feeling. I you like dull sensations don't try it but if you want more highs or just to open your hifi system you absolutely have to keep these caps in mind.
   
  Everything sounds much more realistic as I hear much more details such as chords noises on guitars or violins, breathes of singers, applauses, atmosphere of the room/hall and so on, it's extremely enjoyable. percussions are incredible as well. For me it's a main improvement such as shinkoh or output caps were, really. But once again, it gives a lot more highs so if you don't like that or if your system is already a bit bright I wouldn't recommend them as these caps are bright themselves. However it's never harsh at all, even on muted trumpets or violins highs are always very sweet. They're a bit expensive, around 20e, but they worth a try as they really greatly improve impressions of reality and live performance (thanks to atmosphere and details).  I think one on C12 is enough (a good place for it on my mind), coupled by more neutral caps, don't put them everywhere on the dac ot it will be too much!
   
  I'll see in the next days if I keep them but for the moment It's not tiring at all or less musical than before.
   
  One note however : I didn't try any other cap than SGM Silver Mica caps here so may be some others approach these feelings


----------



## kendrab

A while ago, there was mention of the benefits of changing the 47uf and 100 uf capacitors below/in front of C5 to improve sound. Both Robeeert1 and Naimex posted on this. I believe use of Blackgate FK series 47uf 16v and 100uf 16V capacitors were mentioned. Now that I have my dac apart, I see the original parts were rated at 25V. Will the Blackgate 16V capacitors work in this situation, or will they fail because of lower rating?
   
  Also, did anyone replace the 100uf25V and 100uf50V capacitors, and if so, what did you use?


----------



## mako44

I know while it's possible to put higher voltage it's usually not recommended to put low ones si I don't know if it's a good idea. there's none with equal or upper voltage ? I changed two 47uf caps with 100uf silmic personnaly but didn't touch the 100uf caps yet.
   
  I tested 0.1uf Jupiter cap instead of Clarity MR on C12, well Jupiter are very clear as well ! They're both close from each others I thought differences would have been larger. However there's more air and extension with Clarity MR while everything's a bit more confined with Jupiter. Extra details and atmosphere feelings with Clarity ones, I really love them on my system but Jupiter are from very good quality as well, it's a question of tastes and synergy now. I'd say Clarity MR go a tight futher in naturality and reality whereas I had a bit more the feeling to listen to the cap with Jupiter but this one would be slightly more tender with bad recordings or low quality tracks (mp3) or harsh systems. They're close anyway.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> A while ago, there was mention of the benefits of changing the 47uf and 100 uf capacitors below/in front of C5 to improve sound. Both Robeeert1 and Naimex posted on this. I believe use of Blackgate FK series 47uf 16v and 100uf 16V capacitors were mentioned. Now that I have my dac apart, I see the original parts were rated at 25V. Will the Blackgate 16V capacitors work in this situation, or will they fail because of lower rating?
> 
> Also, did anyone replace the 100uf25V and 100uf50V capacitors, and if so, what did you use?


 


  As I remember I changed Nichicon 100uf 25V with BG "F" 100uF 25V for much better bass response and Nichicon 47uF with BG "FK" 47uF for better tonality.
  Do some experiments with higher values. Higher values are better for 8/10 cases.


----------



## kendrab

Blackgate capacitors have gotten quite pricey now that they are discontinued. I have a Blackgate FK series 47uf16V capacitor and an FK series 100uf16V capacitor. Blackgate only made the 47uf one in a 16V version, although I can get a Blackgate FK series 100uf25V capacitor. Blackgate never made a 100uf F series capacitor with a 25V rating; it was rated for 35V. Unfortunately, I have no source for F series Blackgate capacitors.
   
  My options at this point are to:
  1) Use the 47uf16V and 100uf16V Blackgate FK series capacitors I have
  2) Use the 47uf16V FK Series Blackgate capacitor and leave the 100uf one as stock
  3) Use the 47uf16V FK Series Blackgate capacitor, and order a 100uf25V Blackgate FK series capacitor
  3) Use the 47uf16V FK Series Blackgate capacitor, and order a higher rating ELNA Silmic II RFS 100uf25V capacitor
  4) Order an ELNA Silmic II RFS 47uf25V capacitor AND a ELNA Silmic II RFS 100uf25V capacitor
   
  My use of the two Blackgate FK series 16V capacitors will depend on what other people have successfully used in their Havana dac, so please let me know what you have used.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> . Blackgate never made a 100uf F series capacitor with a 25V rating; it was rated for 35V. Unfortunately, I have no source for F series Blackgate capacitors.


 

 BG made 100uF 25V "F",
   
  I put there BG 100uF 25V "F" and BG 47uF "FK" 16V. In the case of 16V ratings you have to measure the voltage while the DAC is running.
  It is always better to use higher voltage rating caps.
  I tried also Elna SilmicII, but the result was not so good as in the BG case but satisfactory as I remember.


----------



## mako44

Why don't you use BG FK 100uf 25V for example Kendrab ? It would fit and there only at 5euros.


----------



## aajax26

Wondering if anyone has had problem connecting the latest 2011 macmini to Havana DAC using toslink? It works with USB but with toslink i get data error. It connects to the CD player toslink out with the same cable without any issue. 
   
  Any tips to fix?
   
  Problem fixed. Bad toslink to 3.5mm plug


----------



## mako44

I suggest to test this player if you don't know it : Jplay http://jplay.eu/
   
  I don't know how you play your tracks but I use Foobar on my PC and tested Jplay this morning, this player is really good. In fact it tries to reduce the jitter occured by computers and acts like spdif transports (legato, audiophileo, m2tech evo...) by putting the tracks directly in RAM. Results are great !
   
  You just have to install Jplay on your computer, copy foo_jplay.dll into foobar\components directory, restart the computer and it's done. It will work automaticaly when playing music with foobar (lossless only, it doesn't work with mp3).
   
  It costs 99e but the free trial version enables to test it easily. As you know Havana is very sentitive to transport and the sound is much better with Jplay on my computer (works better with windows 7 and a minimum of ram - I have 8Go) : more natural, more resolution, atmosphere, spatiality, presence, realistic timbres... I suggest you to test it if you can ! It works also on Jriver and Itunes.
   
  By the way i'd be interested to know if there's also an improvement if an spdif transport is already connected to the Havana !


----------



## mako44

Listening to what I hear on my hifi system for this morning I really don't understand why Mhdt labs put so low quality components in their dac, they could sell them much better ! Do they know they can reach high end levels with them ? That's mad....


----------



## ilDottore

Hi guys,
  Just bought for my Havana new DAC chips - see photo below:
   

   
  To be honest - no sonical difference between new chip and the original one (Korean J-grade).
  My question is: REAL OR FAKE? I'm asking you, because some friends told me that the chip from my photo was never produced by Burr Brown.
  So, in their opinion, what we got here, is fake from Malaysian factory with new description on the body.
   
  By the way: have a nice Havana Easter!


----------



## robeeert1

As I told you on audiostereo, these on the photo are faked and never produced by BB.


----------



## ilDottore

Anyone else?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I really don't understand why Mhdt labs put so low quality components in their dac


 
   
  Isn't it obvious? Because low quality components sound bloody hell good!
   





  
  BTW:
   
  I've had the opp to listen to a Stockholm DAC with a Bendix 6385 recently (which I am considering purchasing) and I have to say, having  not heard the 6385 in a Havana or Stockholm (the new Havana "upgrade" DAC from MHDT) that it really is, sonically, the best all around tube I've heard ... just slightly eclipsing my typical JW 396A tube... 
   
  The 6385 has a clarity and air about it that makes the whole presentation just sound "finer" all the way around... ...really enjoying it.
   
  I'm slowly hacking away at a review of the Stockholm DAC but said writing is progressing in line with the amount of time I get to listen to the new DAC (which hasn't been a whole lot over the past few months as I've been strapped with personal obligations) ... but as I get the time to finish the review and publish it here at Head-fi, I'll post a link. I like the stock flavor/performance of the DAC a tad better than the Havana, mostly in regards to high frequency treatment; sounds a bit more refined and detailed. And, also...some of the brief but serious listening I've done has involved high res files (192/24) etc. and here, for whatever reason, it *definitely* performs better than the Havana. The USB implementation (asynchronous) sounds much much better as well ...
   
  More later ...
   
  .j


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Isn't it obvious? Because low quality components sound bloody hell good!


 
   It's obvious to me, I entirely agree with that. Low quality compomnents sound pretty damn good.
  Havana is a great DAC !


----------



## s1rrah

dude. triple post. feck! I kept getting all these "system error" messages from the forum but apparently it was posting like crazy. Mods? Can you delete these, please?


----------



## s1rrah

(double post) ... something is going on with the system, obviously.


----------



## s1rrah

(double post)


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Isn't it obvious? Because low quality components sound bloody hell good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  It's very true, Bendix 6385 has clarity and air,.. and refinement! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The limited edition of Stax (SR-404LE) sounds good amplified with eXStatA (the SS version) after about half an hour/an hour from start of audition, and... sounds lovely after relaxation of headphone membrane. Absolutely gorgeous! The synergy between SR-404LE and eXStatA is indisputable; but here contribute greatly Bendix 6385.
  The usb implementation (asynchronous) is very good. For example, with Apple iMac (Macintosch audio players) and AR-T Legato, Havana feels great: very consistent, coherent and.. credible sound playback! these solutions can do in most lines, the difference!
  
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> It's obvious to me, I entirely agree with that. Low quality compomnents sound pretty damn good.
> Havana is a great DAC !


 
  Havana is a great DAC, indeed.


----------



## ilDottore

OK, OK, Havana sounds great, but what with the chip on my picture? REAL OR FAKE?


----------



## mako44

@ Ildottore : sorry I really don't know
   

   
  @ Ildottore : sorry I really don't know
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I like the stock flavor/performance of the DAC a tad better than the Havana, mostly in regards to high frequency treatment; sounds a bit more refined and detailed. And, also...some of the brief but serious listening I've done has involved high res files (192/24) etc. and here, for whatever reason, it *definitely* performs better than the Havana. The USB implementation (asynchronous) sounds much much better as well ...


 


  Reassure me you speak about stock havana ? Or do you mean Stockholm Dac is better than modified Havana ?...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





loserica said:


> The usb implementation (asynchronous) is very good. For example, with Apple iMac (Macintosch audio players) and AR-T Legato, Havana feels great: very consistent, coherent and.. credible sound playback! these solutions can do in most lines, the difference!
> 
> Havana is a great DAC, indeed.


 

 The Havana, to the best of my knowledge is "synchronous" USB only ... the Stockholm can be configured to be either "synchronous" or "asynchronous" ... 
   
  And yes, at least on my particular computer system, I find the Stockholm's asynchronous USB to sound much better than the Havana's synchronous USB. In fact, prior to getting to hear the Stockholm, I never used the Havana much with USB (other than for testing) as I simply enjoyed the coaxial and optical options much more.
   
  With the Stockholm, however...I am primarily listening through it's "asynchronous" USB as I find it to sound just as good as the optical and coaxial...especially with the higher bit rate files.
   
  That said...
   
  I will be honest and confess that my knowledge of asynchronous vs synchronous is very limited; but, for what it's worth, an "asynchronous" implementation has a jitter control/management circuit built in to the DAC itself whereas a "synchronous" (the typical) USB implementation depends on the host computer to manage the jitter control.  
   
  I haven't had a chance to listen via the Stockholm's BNC connector as I have no BNC output devices so I can't comment on that


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Reassure me you speak about stock havana ? Or do you mean Stockholm Dac is better than modified Havana ?...


 

 I haven't had a chance to listen to a modified Havana (or modified Stockholm for that matter) ... but I'm certain the differences are quite palpable (yes, I definitely think component quality makes a difference sonically)...
   
  But yes, just regarding the *stock* Havana vs the *stock* Stockholm DAC ... I feel the Stockholm is a very slight improvement (mostly in detail and high freq rendering) over the Havana when listening to standard resolution files. I mean it is nit picking to say one is better than the other but the Stockholm does show a bit more refinement.
   
  With high resolution files, however...I find the Stockholm to be quite dramatically better sounding than the Havana. Much better detail and resolution (again, especially when considering high frequencies...where so much of the "detail" seems to reside). I'm guessing this has to do with the slightly different topology of the digital receiver between the two DACs since this is the only primary difference...while both DACs still send the final analogue out through the PCM56(*) DAC chips. 
   
  But in the end, when listening to both of the unmodified DACS (Havana and Stockholm)...it is very easy to hear that the both are built around the same basic DAC architecture as they sound very very much alike (with the Stockholm showing more refinement here and there and especially with higher bit rate/resolution files).


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *mako44*
> 
> 
> I really don't understand why Mhdt labs put so low quality components in their dac
> ...


 


 Sure! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  [size=10pt]I would rewrite that as: [/size]
   
*[size=10pt]Unreasonably expensive components are not necessarily better than components of reasonable price.[/size]*


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Sure!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well, certainly an *discussion* is worthwhile around such a topic and I don't think it's a bad thing to discuss (even though I'm personally very happy with the stock performance of the Havana and Stockholm DACs.
   
  I for one think that more expensive components can and do _indeed_ make for positive sonic gains in audio equipment. Different materials, different construction processes, etc. can all impact the final audio quality and delivery (easy case in point is the sonic differences among various tubes but I think the same principles apply to caps, resistors, etc.). I also think that the age old situation of diminishing returns is a very real factor and one's willingness to invest either the money or skills/labor to achieve them are going to be a very personal decision.
   
  I personally think the stock Havana is EASILY worth it's humble asking price. Hell, I already *know* I find it generally more pleasing and satisfying than other DACs costing quite a bit more. Just look around the web. The vast majority of reviewers/users out there are most likely not wrong in this case and folks with INSANELY expensive speaker rigs and otherwise have been quite appreciative of the DACs sonic qualities (also lots of discussion on Audiogon if you search around).
   
  For what it's worth, even MHDT Labs cheaper DACs like the Constantine and Paradisea are also very much lauded by their  many users. In fact, it's quite difficult to find too much negative commentary on any of their DACs, *anywhere* online or elsewhere...a salient point that just can't be ignored when considering the hyper critical mind of your average hi-fi users. LOL ... .
   
  On the flip side, however... I don't doubt for a_ second _that the Havana could be made to perform much better with the addition of new components. I'm just not ready to embark on that journey yet as I'm very much satisfied with the way things sound for now. 
  It sounds like a lot of fun, though and should I remain a user of MHDT Labs DACs, I'll most likely and at some point end up doing some sort of modifications (mostly because I like pushing gear to the max and have long been in to the computer modification scene); but again, that will be in the future if  it should happen at all.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Sure!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Well my modified havana is 3 times better than the stock one (dramatically more open, refined and natural sounding) so that's why I don't understand Mhdt labs only provide a low range components dac as they could also provide a high range dac with better components.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> The Havana, to the best of my knowledge is "synchronous" USB only ... the Stockholm can be configured to be either "synchronous" or "asynchronous" ...
> 
> And yes, at least on my particular computer system, I find the Stockholm's asynchronous USB to sound much better than the Havana's synchronous USB. In fact, prior to getting to hear the Stockholm, I never used the Havana much with USB (other than for testing) as I simply enjoyed the coaxial and optical options much more.
> 
> With the Stockholm, however...I am primarily listening through it's "asynchronous" USB as I find it to sound just as good as the optical and coaxial...especially with the higher bit rate files.


 


  By the way nobody tried Jplay I mentionned before ?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> By the way nobody tried Jplay I mentionned before ?


 


  I might try it this weekend if I get some time. I'm pretty  happy with Jriver Media Center (Asio/WASAPI) and Foobar (Asio/WASAPI) ... and the Stockholm does an (apparently) fantastic job with jitter control and what not ... but I still like trying new players. Will mention something if I get a chance to check it out ...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Well my modified havana is 3 times better than the stock one (dramatically more open, refined and natural sounding) so that's why I don't understand Mhdt labs only provide a low range components dac as they could also provide a high range dac with better components.


 

 @ mako44, if you upgrade the key points of Havana, you get more open sound, refined and natural sounding; substantially increase the speed, dynamics, resolution, etc.. Yes,  is true and repeat what he said Robert, the stock Havana and the modiffied Havana are surely in _different_ classes of sound quality! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I don't think we are interested in why Mhdt LABS only provide a low range components dac, becouse our converters sounded clearly above the _standard_ solution and _in principle_ financially worthwhile. Good connectors, good capacitors, chips, resistors, good tubes, etc, all competed for superior sound. On the other hand, we must maintain objectivity: I think there are other solutions, even some with higher price-quality ratio, ...but must be tested! it can be a great disadvantage. Why I choose it to keep Havana? The upgrade effort was comfortably, happened over one/two years and know the sound will improve even more. Overall I am pleased with the outcome: the last up-grade - the R'core, next week.


----------



## mako44

Well I didn't mean at all stock havana is weak, it's a good dac for its price (if you don't want a too analytical one), I'm just surprised that Mhdt labs doesn't provide a higher range dac with better components as the stock one enables it easily by changing few caps and resistors. But well it's their business...

  
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> the 6385 in a Havana or Stockholm (the new Havana "upgrade" DAC from MHDT) that it really is, sonically, the best all around tube I've heard ... just slightly eclipsing my typical JW 396A tube...
> 
> The 6385 has a clarity and air about it that makes the whole presentation just sound "finer" all the way around... ...really enjoying it.


 
   
   
  That's exactly what I reproach to we396a tube. I just listened to it again it's wonderful on jazz and old recordings like beatles, stones or so on (really incredible on sax like stan getz or webster) but is slightly too fat and closed on other ones for my tastes. On the other hand 2c51 ericsson I use (sonically the opposite : widely open, detailed, neutral, airy...) have a lack of magic on some recordings and can sound a tad too thin or lifeless sometimes. It's however brilliant on classic and main pop, rock or acoustic ones, but not very indulgent with bad quality recordings it can be annoying sometimes. You made me curious about 6385 I'm going to order one as it's available : 6385 Bendix Red Bank military, labeled 2C51 from 1963. I hope it's a good one as I read they can sound different depending on differents factors. May be it will be a good compromise between my 2c51 tube and we396a.
   
  Good luck for R-core, it looks hard to install. I may buy it too after, i'm still thinking about the way I want to improve my sound.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> 6385 Bendix Red Bank military, labeled 2C51 from 1963


 
  bendix 2C51 is not the same as bendix 6385. 6385 is longer and double mica construction, sounds different, but bendix 2C51 is a good tube. You should like it.


----------



## mako44

Ups I didn't notice that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. According to some comments bendix 2c51 appears to be closer to JW we396a than the bendix 6385 so it may not fit with what I want....
   
  In fact Ideally I'd like the 2c51 LM ericsson but a bit warmer or a mix between 2c51 ericsson & jw we396a, Everybody says bendix 6385 s the best so it was the opportunity to test.


----------



## Pingfloid

[size=11pt]I have spent many hours reading the comments about mods... wow! That’s a great work! Thank you robeert1, loserica, Mako44, and everyone else. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


[/size]
   
  [size=11pt]Although [/size][size=11pt]I am still on page 116, I have already ordered the c-core transformer from ebay.[/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]
  [size=11pt]Mouser only has one PCM56P-K in stock. Do you know another reliable source? [/size]
   
  [size=11pt]RS- has this one: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/dac/6607751/?searchTerm=PCM56P-KG4 named PCM56P-KG4, but they do not show a detailed picture. Do you think it is the Korean one?[/size]
   
  [size=11pt][size=medium]NOTE:[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=medium]I am not going to modify the Havana because I am dissatisfied with it, but because it is a fun hobby.[/size][/size]
   
  [size=11pt][size=medium]As I have said before, since I replaced my old vinyl collection with CD’s, [/size][size=medium]this is the first time that I can enjoy music for hours without listening fatigue. Thanks to the combination of the Havana with other tube gear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


[/size][/size]


----------



## mako44

Unfortunately I bought mines at mouser and don't know any other source. But if you're a bit patient it's sure they'll receive a new stock. You can send them en email and ask the delay.
   
  By the way it's malaysian chips at mouser, not korean. But you're sure it's not fakes. So if you don't find korean ones, what i think, don't panic those from mouser work fine.
   
  It's a funny hobby right and you'll hear nice improvements if you go on modifying your dac with better components. Mundorf, Jupiter, Black gate or Clarity CAP are good but cheaper ones can provide improvements too. At the moment I'm trying to desolder rca connectors but they don't want to go out lol ! Good luck


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote:


mako44 said:


> At the moment I'm trying to desolder rca connectors but they don't want to go out lol ! Good luck


 

 Do you have one of that desoldering irons with hand operated vacuum bulb? They are very handy


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I temporarily installed the R-core transformer, I'm shocked by the sound improvement,
> Mundorf .22 upgrade is nothing compared to R-core.
> This baby causes jaw dropping effect. WOW,  EVERYTHING is much improved,
> (separation, air, timbre, kick, etc...)
> ...


 
  Well, Robert..you were right and this time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  The R-Core delivers a better separation, better stage presence, air!!! (Oh YES!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , instruments _breathe_, timbre, audio-layering and better decay...
   
  As said _Dynobot  _after changing the R-Core:  "I can hear sounds like fingers moving on guitar strings which I did not hear before, voices have a in-the-room realism and decays last longer and are more obviously heard than before".
   
  This is really, one of the most important upgrades for Havana!
   
  PS: On this occasion, I changed the power cable, Clearer Audio (Alpha CopperLine) with Audioquest NRG-5. The black-background effect and the stage presence were intensified/expanded perceptibly (It's probably and synergy with AQ Colorado), excellent separation and positioning of instruments!  Sound is natural, beautiful.


----------



## loserica

Your attention, for who is looking a good Havana dac at a decent price:
   
  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105289.0
  (I hope I haven't offended anyone)
   
  I need of inside only the two Beeswax Jupiter HT (2,2 uF) capacitors. I didn't find anywhere in stock.


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica,
  The DAC looks very nice, I think it is fully upgraded now and sounds great.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica,
> The DAC looks very nice, I think it is fully upgraded now and sounds great.


 
  Yes, Robert, ...sounds great. I am now very happy with the sound! Once again, a very important aspect is that Havana moded and the stock are totally different. Amazing how much we won in speed, dynamics, detail, texture, layering, etc, etc..
  Next time I try to solve the digital section by implementing Sanyo Oscon capacitors. I understand that these capacitors are very good here. Havana is still slightly weak on the resolution and this change can probably solve this very well. I hope! I will come back with details once we know exactly what to do.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Yes, Robert, ...sounds great. I am now very happy with the sound! Once again, a very important aspect is that Havana moded and the stock are totally different. Amazing how much we won in speed, dynamics, detail, texture, layering, etc, etc..
> Next time I try to solve the digital section by implementing Sanyo Oscon capacitors. I understand that these capacitors are very good here. Havana is still slightly weak on the resolution and this change can probably solve this very well. I hope! I will come back with details once we know exactly what to do.


 


  To increase the resolution to maximum level (in your case) you have to replace the chips with Japanese "K" ones (but real ones, only taken out from the vintage CD player, not from ebay or not from other available stocks, only vintage ones!!!!!!!),
  you will hear *slightly* more resolution (easily noticeable), but will lose texture and musicality a little. I prefer Korean "K" chips. I don't think the Oscon caps can increase the resolution, but try them.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Well, Robert..you were right and this time!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Nice ! It's tempting. I'm not experienced enough to do it even with the good explanations of Robert but I may find someone if needed. Looks great anyway according to you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Did you remove C5 Ioserica ? I wonder if it's not more or less the same or an easier way to approach the same results... Anyway if I put R core I guess I'll have to replace C5 back or the dac should be too clear this time.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Pingfloid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Do you have one of that desoldering irons with hand operated vacuum bulb? They are very handy


 


 Yes sure, it's very useful


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Ignat(niamex) suggested to replace one of 47uF (marked on the photo) with higher value like 100uF. I will check it by the next occasion.


 

 I should have done it sooner. I changed it for elna silmic 100uf 2 days ago, difference is welcome in my case. Before that basses were rough in many ways, now it's tighter and more balanced. I don't hear these low frequencies that were disturbing me on some recordings by trailing around where they shouldn't. Recommended


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Nice ! It's tempting. I'm not experienced enough to do it even with the good explanations of Robert but I may find someone if needed. Looks great anyway according to you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, I removed the C5 caps! and I think it was the right decision (Thank's Robert for suggestions! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Sound is rich enough in highs and far from being dark by removing C5 cap. Superior texture!
  Few more words: R-Core contributed greatly to improving the speed of the dac, I got a better separation on low and medium frequencies and I discover new voice inflections (of course, higher decay, as I said). Overall sound is clearer, I think they have gone some distortion that I had before the higher frequencies; superior extension on the bass, mid bass, mid and highs! in a word: natural and beautiful!


----------



## mako44

Really ? I'm very surprised you can use both r-core and c5 removed together, I thought it would be too clear. Well it worthes a try to judge by myself, i'll do it if i have the opportunity. Thanks for your comments
   
  By the way, to get more resolution you can try Clarity mr caps on c12 & input caps they go a tad farer than jupiter. But are more neutral too, you may not like, and I still find a lack of resolution on mine.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I should have done it sooner. I changed it for elna silmic 100uf 2 days ago, difference is welcome in my case. Before that basses were rough in many ways, now it's tighter and more balanced. I don't hear these low frequencies that were disturbing me on some recordings by trailing around where they shouldn't. Recommended


 
   

 As a matter of fact that was suggested earlier by someone in this thread - I went further and after the good result with 100 uF Elna Silmic I have installed one Elna 47 uF in parallel /from the bottom of the first one/ - so altogether 147 uF and in my case the picture got even better - more open and articulated bass - you have to try that. Please also note I have replaced the output caps with Mundorf Silver/Oil *2.7 uF.*
  Cheers,
  Ignat


----------



## kendrab

I ordered the last of the parts for my Havana A/A convertor today. It will be fairly similar to Robeeert1's dac.
   
  I decided to go a little further and replace the 5 remaining 0.1uf capacitors with Mundorf Silver Oil versions. The .22uf capacitor will be replaced with a Mundorf Silver Gold capacitor. I ordered up to Blackgate FK series 100uf25V capacitors to go beneath the C5 capacitor area of the PCB board. The two output capcitors are V-Cap 2.0uf250VDC, and they will each be bridged by a V-Cap CuTF series 0.1uf600VDC capacitor. I am upgrading to a Vampire Wire BNC, and will replace the RCA output jacks with WBT 0234 versions.
   
  I have one of those R-Core 35W transformers, and will be mounting it (and everything else) in a chassis 7" wider than stock. This way, the transformer can mount directly to the chassis at the left side, and there will be 2" of extra room on the right so all the capacitors will fit.
   
  I expect the parts Monday or Tuesday of next week. At that time, I will be taking it in to a well respected electronis repair shop to have the mods done. Once I get it home, I will put 500 hrs on it to break everything in before sitting down for a serious listening session.
   
  When I get it back, I will post a few pictures...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> To increase the resolution to maximum level (in your case) you have to replace the chips with Japanese "K" ones (but real ones, only taken out from the vintage CD player, not from ebay or not from other available stocks, only vintage ones!!!!!!!),
> you will hear *slightly* more resolution (easily noticeable), but will lose texture and musicality a little. I prefer Korean "K" chips. I don't think the Oscon caps can increase the resolution, but try them.


 
  Finally arrived Oscon capacitors (Sanyo Oscon, 4,7uF, 10V; 10 pcs. I bought from here: http://int.rsdelivers.com). Six were implemented on digital section and four on analog section of the dac. What is new about this movement? Enough to deserve. Notable differences are in terms of texture and micro details. Layering and micro details,...I'm glad because Havana is capable of its! Ambient noises, are finally present in audition. Higher frequencies, they are more present, but played very natural. I think we can speak of a slight widening of the resolution at this time! (it takes several days of burning, of course ...)
  I recommend this upgrade.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  and a picture:


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Finally arrived Oscon capacitors (Sanyo Oscon, 4,7uF, 10V; 10 pcs. I bought from here: http://int.rsdelivers.com). Six were implemented on digital section and four on analog section of the dac. What is new about this movement? Enough to deserve. Notable differences are in terms of texture and micro details. Layering and micro details,...I'm glad because Havana is capable of its! Ambient noises, are finally present in audition. Higher frequencies, they are more present, but played very natural. I think we can speak of a slight widening of the resolution at this time! (it takes several days of burning, of course ...)
> I recommend this upgrade.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Awesome.


----------



## robeeert1

Loserica, it looks nice, I'll try to decouple the chips better.


----------



## Pingfloid

Hi.
   
  Do you have a part-list that includes the capacitors? I want to prepare a shopping list for the upgrade, and that would make life a lot of easier. 
   
  I have this one that includes the resistors and some caps. I do not remember who posted it. *Thank You!!*
   
   

 *[size=small]ID[/size]* *[size=small]Value[/size]* *[size=small]Spec /Grade[/size]* *[size=small]Parts[/size]* [size=small]R1[/size] [size=small]301R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R2[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R3[/size] [size=small]1K04[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R4[/size] [size=small]1K04[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R5[/size] [size=small]121R[/size] [size=small]2W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R6[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R7[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R8[/size] [size=small]243R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R9[/size] [size=small]75R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R10[/size] [size=small]270R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R11[/size] [size=small]5K62[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R12[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R13[/size] [size=small]270R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R14[/size] [size=small]5K62[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R15[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R16[/size] [size=small]39R2[/size] [size=small]2W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R17[/size] [size=small]2k26[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R18[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R19[/size] [size=small]475K[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R20[/size] [size=small]475K[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R21[/size] [size=small]475K[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R22[/size] [size=small]1K0[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R23[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R24[/size] [size=small]402R[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R25[/size] [size=small]33R2[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R26[/size] [size=small]33R2[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R27[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R28[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R29[/size] [size=small]20K0[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R30[/size] [size=small]20K0[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R31[/size] [size=small]390K[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R32[/size] [size=small]390K[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R33[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]R34[/size] [size=small]100R[/size] [size=small]1W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]RL[/size] [size=small]1K53[/size] [size=small]0.6W, 1%[/size] [size=small]Resistor[/size] [size=small]H1[/size] [size=small]BRED[/size]   [size=small]BRED[/size] [size=small]H2[/size] [size=small]BRED[/size]   [size=small]BRED[/size] [size=small]D1[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D2[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D3[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D4[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D5[/size] [size=small] Led Blue[/size] [size=small]3mm[/size] [size=small]Led[/size] [size=small]D6[/size] [size=small] Led Green[/size] [size=small]3mm[/size] [size=small]Led[/size] [size=small]D7[/size] [size=small]Led Red[/size] [size=small]3mm[/size] [size=small]Led[/size] [size=small]DU[/size] [size=small]Led Yellow[/size] [size=small]3mm[/size] [size=small]Led[/size] [size=small]D8[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D9[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D10[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]D11[/size] [size=small]2A/800V[/size] [size=small]1N5062[/size] [size=small]DIODE[/size] [size=small]C1[/size] [size=small]2200U/25V[/size] [size=small]Fine Gold[/size] [size=small]CAPACITOR[/size] [size=small]C2[/size] [size=small]2200U/25V[/size] [size=small]Fine Gold[/size] [size=small]CAPACITOR[/size] [size=small]C3[/size] [size=small]2200U/25V[/size] [size=small]Fine Gold[/size] [size=small]CAPACITOR[/size] [size=small]C4[/size] [size=small]2200U/25V[/size] [size=small]Fine Gold[/size] [size=small]CAPACITOR[/size]


----------



## robeeert1

Mhdt Havana  BOM                
 ID    Value    Spec /Grade    Parts             
 R1    301R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R2    100R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R3    1K04    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R4    1K04    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R5    121R    2W, 1%    RESISTER            
 R6    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R7    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R8    243R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R9    75R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R10    270R    1W, 1%    RESISTER            
 R11    5K62    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R12    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R13    270R    1W, 1%    RESISTER            
 R14    5K62    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R15    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R16    39R2    2W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R17    2k26    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R18    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R19    475K    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R20    475K    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R21    475K    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R22    1K0    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R23    100R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R24    402R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R25    33R2    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R26    33R2    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R27    100R    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R28    100R    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R29    20K0    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R30    20K0    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R31    390K    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R32    390K    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R33    100R    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 R34    100R    1W, 1%     RESISTER            
 RL    1K53    0.6W, 1%    RESISTER            
 H1    BRED        BRED            
 H2    BRED        BRED            
 D1    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D2    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D3    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D4    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D5     Led Blue    3mm    Led            
 D6     Led Green     3mm    Led            
 D7    Led Red    3mm    Led            
 DU    Led Yellow    3mm    Led            
 D8    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D9    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D10    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 D11    2A/800V    1N5062    DIODE            
 C1    2200U/25V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C2    2200U/25V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C3    2200U/25V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C4    2200U/25V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C5    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C6    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C7    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C8    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C9    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C10    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C11    0.22U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C12    1000P    Silver Mica    CAPACITOR            
 C13    0.01U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C14    0.01U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C15    470U/10V    OSCON    CAPACITOR            
 C16    100U/50V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C17    0.1U    ECQ-P    CAPACITOR            
 C17    100U/50V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C18    100U/50V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C19    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C20    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C21    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C22    100U/50V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C23    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C24    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C25    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C26    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C27    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C28    100U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C29    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C30    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C31    0.1U    ECQ-P    CAPACITOR            
 C32    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C33    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C33    2.0U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C34    33U/16V    OSCON    CAPACITOR            
 C35    2.0U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 C37    1000U/16V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C38    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 C39    470U/25V    Fine Gold    CAPACITOR            
 C40    332P    Y2    CAPACITOR            
 U1    LT317A    LT317A    IC            
 U2    NJM431LA    NJM431LA    IC            
 U3    NJM431LA    NJM431LA    IC            
 U4    NJM431LA    NJM431LA    IC            
 U5    CS8414    CS8414    IC            
 U6    74ACT86    74ACT86    IC            
 U9    NJM431LA    NJM431LA    IC            
 U10    2N2222    2N2222    IC            
 U11    2N2222    2N2222    IC            
 U12    DLR1151    DLR1151    OPTIC RECIEVER            
 U13    LT1085CT    LT1085CT    IC            
 U14    Nais TX-2     4.5V    RELAY            
 S1    Main Switch    OEM    Toggle SWITCH            
 S3    90D PCB USB     OEM    Type B  USB Jack            
 S4    90D PCB      OEM    RCA JACK              
 S5    90D PCB      OEM    RCA JACK              
 S6    90D PCB      OEM    RCA JACK              
 S7    Toggle SWITCH    OEM    Toggle SWITCH            
 S7    4P Molex    OEM    AC Input             
 S8    3P Molex    OEM    9-0-9V AC Input            
 S9    3P Molex    OEM    15-0-15V AC Input            
     9PIN CERAMIC GOLD        TUBE SOCKET            
 UR1    33R2    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 UR2    1K50    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 UR3    33R2    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 UR4    1M    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 UR5    301R    0.6W, 1%     RESISTER            
 UU1    0.1U    FILM & FOIL    CAPACITOR            
 UU1    CM102    CM102S+    IC            
 UU2    Nais TX-2     4.5V    RELAY            
 UU3    12Mhz    10ppm    Crystal            
 UH1    BRED        BRED            
 UH2    BRED        BRED            
 UC1    47U/25V    MUSE KZ    CAPACITOR            
 UC2    150V/16V    OSCON    CAPACITOR            
 UC3    22p    NPO    CAPACITOR            
 UC4    22p    NPO    CAPACITOR            
 UC5    22p    NPO    CAPACITOR            
 UC6    22p    NPO    CAPACITOR            
     FUSE    500mA 5x20mm Slow    FUSE            
 UGB    BRED


----------



## Pingfloid

Thank You for the BOM!
   
  Do you know where can I find a reliable source of K-Grade PCM56's?
   
  There is one seller on Ebay, and the K letter on the left corner is so obviously hand-painted!


----------



## GP77

http://ch.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/PCM56P-K/?qs=wgAEGBTxy7ki03HFDcBlUxoeKQWvlThkylKm9dBgLHk%3d


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





gp77 said:


> http://ch.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/PCM56P-K/?qs=wgAEGBTxy7ki03HFDcBlUxoeKQWvlThkylKm9dBgLHk%3d


 
  Thank you GP77.
   
  My chips are already labeled as *PCM56PK* (K letter at the end). The same at the Mouser Reference (PCM56P-K), but mine have a *J *at the right side of the chip (apparently indicating that they are J grade). The only difference is the dash before the K.
   
  My chips look like this one. I am wondering what is the meaning of the K at PM56PK and the J on the right.

   
  The data sheet does not mention the existance of a separated letter on the right, neither a PCM56PK without dash. That is confusing


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Thank you GP77.
> 
> My chips are already labeled as *PCM56PK* (K letter at the end). The same at the Mouser Reference (PCM56P-K), but mine have a *J *at the right side of the chip (apparently indicating that they are J grade). The only difference is the dash before the K.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm almost sure this one on the photo above is a fake, BB never produced chips marked "PCM56PK-J" inscription,
  I bought the same from ebay seller some time ago, sounds different than PCM56P-L.
  But this is not the first class sound like present real Japanese or Korean "K" chips.
  On the photo below 100% originals.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica, it looks nice, I'll try to decouple the chips better.


 
   
  Robert,

 After about a week of _burning_ of Oscon's caps, the sound changes slowly to what we expect: ambient noise and micro details can make the difference!!! 
  Is incredible how much improved the sound in terms of consistency... (until this time, after implementation of capacitors the sound was slightly inhibited, and only now I feel really the burning...) Listening spectrum has been greatly enriched, they do present new elements that not only I haven't heard before but even if they were, wouldn't be combined so harmoniously, so musical. This change greatly favors the layering and decay of the acoustic image: nice and smooth! If before I was outside of listening, now I feel I'm in the middle of instrumentation, I feel closely linked by the singer, audition send me more privacy! Now I decided to say without reservation: I love Havana!


----------



## robeeert1

Horace,
  You're tempting ! I will try them as soon as I finish my new NOS DIY DAC based on TDA1541A. In a month time or so...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Horace,
> You're tempting ! I will try them as soon as I finish my new NOS DIY DAC based on TDA1541A. In a month time or so...


 

 So to do! If I hadn't so happy, I wouldn't insist. But, Robert, if you think is the best upgrade as quality-price ratio! (,,,besides, R-Core). I'm not able yet to evaluate how much help in sound R-Core compared with implementing the Oscon capacitors, but never mind. This upgrade is not that others, is a _critical _up-grade one even! Havana needs to open sea in this way by a lot of micro-details! It does all the charm of listening. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I speaking most seriously! Dare to compare this upgrade with the first line, critical: experienced similar effect by changing the resistance, chips, electrolytic cap's, etc...
  What I enjoy more, is that my friend's electronics gave me the suggestion to implement Oscon's and analog side, too. Is known from practice that they are great just on the digital section. But we realized that Havana is poor, so even after a number of other important changes, ...so, it is deficient in the medium-high resolution, and it features a somewhat dark play compared with other digital-analog converters (not go into details). Although it wasn't advisable in theoretical to put four capacitors here (on the analog section), We dared. The risk that may arise, as was appear too high, or to feel that effect "sss ..." in voice, but it wasn't at all! Highs became a house specialty, a delicacy! (STAX know why 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
   
  Currently, the most important thing is that it's the idea. 
  Success!


----------



## Pingfloid

I started to peep into the output section. Still uncompleted and unverified. Has anyone gone further than that? Perhaps we can do more if we join forces together 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

  It seems to be a Cathode Follower with 16.3V at the plate Not enough to get a proper read at the Tube Curves!!


----------



## robeeert1

yes it is a cathode follower, in the case of Havana the tube works at 10-15% of its power. What do you want to improve?
  Niamex omitted the built-in op-amp and took signal from 13th leg (Iout) of PCM56 for better micro details and air around.
   
  Read lampizator's solution for tube analogue output stage, works great.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Thank You for the BOM!
> 
> Do you know where can I find a reliable source of K-Grade PCM56's?
> 
> There is one seller on Ebay, and the K letter on the left corner is so obviously hand-painted!


 
  The grade is marked after the chips are controlled /after production/. Obviously the grade will be marked by hand by a tampon - just think and do not worry .
  Cheers,


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> yes it is a cathode follower, in the case of Havana the tube works at 10-15% of its power. What do you want to improve?
> Niamex omitted the built-in op-amp and took signal from 13th leg (Iout) of PCM56 for better micro details and air around.
> 
> Read lampizator's solution for tube analogue output stage, works great.


 

 But please do not forget you have to place a VERY good quality resistor for the I/V conversion there /in my case Z-foil bulk metal ultra low noise Texas/
  Cheers


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> But please do not forget you have to place a VERY good quality resistor for the I/V conversion there /in my case Z-foil bulk metal ultra low noise Texas/
> Cheers


 
   
  thanks for suggestion, will be omitting the the low quality bulit-in op-amp in the Havana.


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote:


niamex said:


> But please do not forget you have to place a VERY good quality resistor for the I/V conversion there /in my case Z-foil bulk metal ultra low noise Texas/


 
   
  [size=10pt]Thank you for pointing this detail. Do you mean that it is not enough to just take the output directly from Pin 13 instead of Pin 9, so we have to use resistors to convert from V to I? What values are recommended for the resistors? [/size]
   
   
  [size=10pt]Robert, thank you for mentioning the Lampizator. I didn’t know about it.[/size]


----------



## redcat2

Well i am glade to say i have sold my paradisea Dac and have just ordered my Havana.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Well i am glade to say i have sold my paradisea Dac and have just ordered my Havana.


 
   
  Congrats! A very good upgrade to be sure. I had the Paradisea too, before the Havana and really noticed a difference. Post some thoughts once you get it ...


----------



## preproman

Hey guys,
   
  New to this thread.  I planning on getting the Havana DAC.  I have a question or two.  Do any of you pair this DAC with the WOO WA22 amp or does it pair better with Solid State amps?  Does anyone use a complete tube rig - or do you mix and match more than not?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> New to this thread.  I planning on getting the Havana DAC.  I have a question or two.  Do any of you pair this DAC with the WOO WA22 amp or does it pair better with Solid State amps?  Does anyone use a complete tube rig - or do you mix and match more than not?


 
   
  I've  not heard it specifically with a WA22 but I've listened for quite some time via a Raptor tube amp and also through my roommates Woo 6 SE. It pairs very well with tube amps. The tube influence on sonics with the Havana is subtle but definitely noticeable. You will not get extreme tube warmth (aka sometimes referred to as "smearing" or "lush") with the Havana. The variations among tubes with the Havana are definite and real, some warmer than others, some more analytical, some more clean than others, more detailed, better soundstage, etc. But, you will not find as dramatic of an influence from tube to tube as you would, say with a good valve amplifier.
   
  That said. I think the Havana would be an excellent match with the WA22 (the newer Stockholm DAC as well) and especially if using a Bendix 6385 tube and/or even the slightly more affordable Bendix 2C51. Both lean towards the detailed, airy side of things with the 6385 being a bit better with just about all aspects, especially detail and soundstage.
   
  Best of luck...
   
  .joel


----------



## s1rrah

BTW ... forgot to mention this here but for those who might be interested, I did a little write up of the newer MHDT Labs Stockholm DAC which just so happens to feature the same basic analogue circuit as the Havana but with the addition of "asynchronous" USB capabilities and a new digital receiver allowing it to receive input from 192khz files. 
   
  You can read about it here, should you be so inclined:  MHDT Labs Stockholm Review
   
  FYI.


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> yes it is a cathode follower, in the case of Havana the tube works at 10-15% of its power. What do you want to improve?
> Niamex omitted the built-in op-amp and took signal from 13th leg (Iout) of PCM56 for better micro details and air around.


 
   
  [size=9pt]I do not know if I can improve something. Just to learn, experiment, have fun, and who knows... maybe something can accidentaly be improved (I hope not barbequed)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


[/size]
   
  [size=9pt]I am still wondering if I have to add resistors to use the direct output from pin 13. Will it work if I just bend Pin-9 before inserting the IC into the socket, and wire a link between pin 13 and pin 9 at the PCB?[/size]
   
   
  [size=9pt]I have replaced the output caps with Jantzen Audio Silver Cap 3.3 uF 800V. It is a great improvement. I did enjoy listening to the Havana before any change, but the Jantzen caps add more separation at the instruments. This is particularly noticeable at the low notes (i.e. the bass is more separated from the bass-drum) and more clarity and detail at the highs. I am not going to invest in more expensive capacitors. This improvement is substantial enough for me.[/size]

   
  [size=9pt]Now I am working on the C-core transformer. I have [size=x-small]already cut the legs (to accomodate it on the space of the old one)[/size], but I still haven’t found the connectors. Maybe I will re-use the old ones.[/size]
   
  [size=9pt]K Chips, Elna caps, and Audio Note film resistors (I could not find Shinkon)  are already on the way [/size]
   
  [size=9pt]Cheers![/size]


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> [size=9pt]Now I am working on the C-core transformer. I have [size=x-small]already cut the legs (to accomodate it on the space of the old one)[/size], but I still haven’t found the connectors. Maybe I will re-use the old ones.[/size]
> 
> [size=9pt]K Chips, Elna caps, and Audio Note film resistors (I could not find Shinkon)  are already on the way [/size]
> 
> [size=9pt]Cheers![/size]


 
   
  Awesome.
   
  I'm going to have to break down and learn how to solder, I think. It's beginning to bug me.


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote:


s1rrah said:


> Awesome.
> 
> I'm going to have to break down and learn how to solder, I think. It's beginning to bug me.


 
  You will not recognize your old Havana when I finish with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I am going to show you what I believe is the most important mod. It is a preservative to protect the head of the very estimated Bendix 6385 
   

   
  This modification is non-intrusive. You just need a cutter to cut the plastic bottle and four small "cable stipe holders" (I don't know the name of that things in English). Anyone can do it:

   
  It is an essential mod for those who have the Havana in a place where accidents can happen, or transport it frequently from home to the office.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> It is an essential mod for those who have the Havana in a place where accidents can happen, or transport it frequently from home to the office.


 
   
 
   
  Looks ghetto but functional. 
   
  I don't move my DAC around at all so not a big deal. I enjoy seeing the tube poke through, also.
   
  It would be sort of cool to try that with some sort of wire mesh, if one could shape it right. Aesthetically, the plastic leaves a bit to be desired.
   
  How do you like the Bendix 6385, though?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> [size=10pt]What values are recommended for the resistors?[/size]
> 
> [size=9pt]I am still wondering if I have to add resistors to use the direct output from pin 13. Will it work if I just bend Pin-9 before inserting the IC into the socket, and wire a link between pin 13 and pin 9 at the PCB?[/size]


 
   
  You can use "Iout - 13th leg" of PCM56 connecting it to the ground by the resistor. Niamex suggested 181R.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> New to this thread.  I planning on getting the Havana DAC.  I have a question or two.  Do any of you pair this DAC with the WOO WA22 amp or does it pair better with Solid State amps?  Does anyone use a complete tube rig - or do you mix and match more than not?


 
  Havana fits seamlessly with both, tubes and SS amps. Personally I prefer the Solid State version, eXStatA sounds better than Stax SRM-006tII. In dynamic headphone rig, I tested the Jan Meier Prehead-I with Havana and the result was again very good in combination with SS amp. Very good! It depends on personal taste, of course.
  (I haven't tested anything from Woo).


----------



## kendrab

It was mentioned near the start of this thread that the Mdht Labs Havana dac can use the Analog Devices AD1865 series chipsets as well as the regular Burr Brown/TI PCM56P series. I believe someone tried switching them, and reported they were more "electronic" sounding, but I believe this was in a relatively unmodified Havana dac.
   
  My question is this: "Has anyone tried the Analog Devices AD1865 chipsets in a fully modified Havana dac to see if the earlier testing result still holds true?"


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> How do you like the Bendix 6385, though?


 
  Since I had the Havana I have tried the following tubes:
  GE 5670 > Raytheon CK5670 > WE 2C51/396A > Bendix 6385
  I have the feeling of an improvement but it may be psychological. One day I will do a proper A/B test.
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You can use "Iout - 13th leg" of PCM56 connecting it to the ground by the resistor. Niamex suggested 181R.


 
   
  Thank You for the information, Robert.
   
  This is how I see the current Havana circuit:
   

   
  If we connect Pin 13 output to ground with a resistor, isn't 181 Ohm a very low value? Perhaps Niamex meant 181K? Otherwise the signal is going to drop down.
   

   
  BTW, I am surprised to see that R26 and R32 (33R2) are not in the list of resistors to substitute with better quality ones. They are right in the middle of the signal path!


----------



## robeeert1

Pingfloid,
   
  You connect 13th leg directly to the grid, and to the ground by the resistor, we omit R26.
  Resistance for I/V conversion for most Iout Dacs is in the range 30-500R. I think 180R maybe the right choice, but try close values.
  BBPCM56 tolerates max 1k value. Test it by yourself. Lower value resistor - slower sound.


----------



## Pingfloid

Thank you!. I will try this with the existing J-grade chips as soon as I receive the new K-grade ones (I want to have a backup in the case that I barbeque them)


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Since I had the Havana I have tried the following tubes:
> GE 5670 > Raytheon CK5670 > WE 2C51/396A > Bendix 6385
> I have the feeling of an improvement but it may be psychological. One day I will do a proper A/B test.


 
   
  I do not know how to understand this.  Does every tube sound the same?


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I do not know how to understand this.  Does every tube sound the same?


 
  I mean that I admit that the improvements that I have perceived so far could be psychological (or maybe not). I have not spent enough time listening to the different tubes to compare them by memory. Furthermore, it is very difficult to make a proper A/B test with tubes because of the time required to swap the tubes and wait for the new tube to heat up.
   
  At the same time, I have also changed some components at my headphone amplifiers while I was swapping tubes, so I have not concentrated so much in listening to the tube characteristics. I will go back to the old tubes when I finish with all the modifications. And by that time, I will already have a better feeling about the flavor of the Bendix to compare it with the others.
   
  With the Jantzen capacitors I am confident of what I have said about the improvement, because I used crocodrile clips for quick A/B changes and compare them before soldering them into the board.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Horace,
> You're tempting ! I will try them as soon as I finish my new NOS DIY DAC based on TDA1541A. In a month time or so...


 
   
  Back after about 3 weeks of running Oscon's capacitors: is undoubtedly one of the most important upgrades to Havana. Not only with excellent quality-price ratio, but from my point of view, I dare to call it critical! I cannot seem to believe how much additional information is able to reveal this dac,..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 From here, I can only conclude that it is very limited in details and transparency, and the implementation substantially _open_ the sound! (disappears and the slightest trace of dark..)
  Texture increases greatly with the first signs of running Oscon's capacitors, a wealth of micro details and harmonics. I didn't until now that difference can make it. High-audio playback in terms of consistency and realism (but have patience to burn capacitors, as of course you realize). the result after is..more than satisfactory.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Back after about 3 weeks of running Oscon's capacitors: is undoubtedly one of the most important upgrades to Havana. Not only with excellent quality-price ratio, but from my point of view, I dare to call it critical! I cannot seem to believe how much additional information is able to reveal this dac,..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You convinced me to try.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. http://int.rsdelivers.com - temporarily out of stock. I see they are hard to find. (4,7uF 10V -os-con Sanyo)


----------



## kendrab

I had my Havana D/A convertor updated recently. It is back in my home, and has about 50 hrs on it. I can already tell it is vastly improved over the original unit. A friend of mine has a Naim CDS II CD player with Naim XPS power supply, and the modified Havana being fed from my PC is pretty much its equal BEFORE the required 300-500 hr break in (Blackgate Capacitors and V-Cap CuTF capacitors take quite a while to break in).
   
  I know upgrading can get expensive, but the results seem well worth it. I am still working on the cosmetics of my new chassis, but once it is finished, I will post pictures.
   
  I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Without your ideas and feedback, this project would have never got off the ground. I particularly want to thank Roberteeer1, Naimex, and Loserica...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I had my Havana D/A convertor updated recently. It is back in my home, and has about 50 hrs on it. I can already tell it is vastly improved over the original unit. A friend of mine has a Naim CDS II CD player with Naim XPS power supply, and the modified Havana being fed from my PC is pretty much its equal BEFORE the required 300-500 hr break in (Blackgate Capacitors and V-Cap CuTF capacitors take quite a while to break in).
> 
> I know upgrading can get expensive, but the results seem well worth it. I am still working on the cosmetics of my new chassis, but once it is finished, I will post pictures.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Without your ideas and feedback, this project would have never got off the ground. I particularly want to thank Roberteeer1, Naimex, and Loserica...


----------



## loserica

kendrab said:


> I had my Havana D/A convertor updated recently. It is back in my home, and has about 50 hrs on it. I can already tell it is vastly improved over the original unit. A friend of mine has a Naim CDS II CD player with Naim XPS power supply, and the modified Havana being fed from my PC is pretty much its equal BEFORE the required 300-500 hr break in (Blackgate Capacitors and V-Cap CuTF capacitors take quite a while to break in).
> I know upgrading can get expensive, but the results seem well worth it. I am still working on the cosmetics of my new chassis, but once it is finished, I will post pictures.
> I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Without your ideas and feedback, this project would have never got off the ground. I particularly want to thank Roberteeer1, Naimex, and Loserica...


 
   
  I am very glad to hear it! I expect pictures and I imagine it looks great ..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can only say whenever I get: Havana upgrade at full and Havana-stock are two different things! Unbelievable how much can it improve to details, transparency, resolution, speed, dynamic, texture, etc..
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You convinced me to try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I see, no longer in stock..and the same problem: space and matching. I looked and I, including on eBay, but I haven't find yet. Idea is that if he had a different model, you could mount them otherwise (I chose normal, or standing, but it can and invert to 90 degrees, only to carefully measure the available space in height, approx. 6 mm). Mine are the right ones, as you've already noticed.
   

   
  I hope you find the right size!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I had my Havana D/A convertor updated recently. It is back in my home, and has about 50 hrs on it. I can already tell it is vastly improved over the original unit. A friend of mine has a Naim CDS II CD player with Naim XPS power supply, and the modified Havana being fed from my PC is pretty much its equal BEFORE the required 300-500 hr break in (Blackgate Capacitors and V-Cap CuTF capacitors take quite a while to break in).
> 
> I know upgrading can get expensive, but the results seem well worth it. I am still working on the cosmetics of my new chassis, but once it is finished, I will post pictures.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Without your ideas and feedback, this project would have never got off the ground. I particularly want to thank Roberteeer1, Naimex, and Loserica...


 
   
  Enjoy the music mate.
   
  We did our best to improve the DAC. This is very important what quality components we use, as we all know stock units will cost a fortune if they use Black Gates caps, best Mundorsfs, V-caps, tantanlum resistors etc..
  When I purchased Havana, I compared it with my heavily modified SACD player Shanling T200, shanling was far better than the stock Havana in transparancy, musicality, details etc...
  Now the same shanling has NO CHANCE with the modified Havana.  Havana presents higher class (layered) sound in all aspects.


----------



## kendrab

I have a few more upgrades in mind, but want to enjoy what I have for a while first.
   
  My next (last?) upgrades are going to be the addition of an Audio Note Model 280 silver toroidal transformer for the digital section, and a Furutech AC-1501R IEC inlet with EMI filter. If I can lay my hands on some of those Sanyo Os-Con capacitors, I will install them as well.
   
  Note: I have 12 spare Russian Military Surplus Silver Mica capacitors. They are 0.01uF(10,000pF)350V =/-0.3% versions, which are a better spec than the typical +/-5-10% versions. If you want a set for your Havana dac (you need 3 per dac), send me a PM.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I had my Havana D/A convertor updated recently. It is back in my home, and has about 50 hrs on it. I can already tell it is vastly improved over the original unit. A friend of mine has a Naim CDS II CD player with Naim XPS power supply, and the modified Havana being fed from my PC is pretty much its equal BEFORE the required 300-500 hr break in (Blackgate Capacitors and V-Cap CuTF capacitors take quite a while to break in).
> 
> I know upgrading can get expensive, but the results seem well worth it. I am still working on the cosmetics of my new chassis, but once it is finished, I will post pictures.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Without your ideas and feedback, this project would have never got off the ground. I particularly want to thank Roberteeer1, Naimex, and Loserica...


 

 I am glad you enjoy the upgrade !
  Be good,
  Cheers


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Pingfloid,
> 
> You connect 13th leg directly to the grid, and to the ground by the resistor, we omit R26.
> Resistance for I/V conversion for most Iout Dacs is in the range 30-500R. I think 180R maybe the right choice, but try close values.
> BBPCM56 tolerates max 1k value. Test it by yourself. Lower value resistor - slower sound.


 

 I fully agree with this. I have tried plenty of resistors in that range and for me the best choice /compromise/  is 181 ohms.Please note again it's quality is very important - should be extremely low noise one.
  Cheers
  Cheers


----------



## redcat2

Ok,Havana arrived today, first thing i noticed when switched on compered to the Paradisea dac, is how black the silence is in the back ground very silent, left running now to burn in.


----------



## kendrab

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I have a few more upgrades in mind, but want to enjoy what I have for a while first.
> 
> My next (last?) upgrades are going to be the addition of an Audio Note Model 280 silver toroidal transformer for the digital section, and a Furutech AC-1501R IEC inlet with EMI filter. If I can lay my hands on some of those Sanyo Os-Con capacitors, I will install them as well.
> 
> Note: I have 12 spare Russian Military Surplus Silver Mica capacitors. They are 0.01uF(10,000pF)350V =/-0.3% versions, which are a better spec than the typical +/-5-10% versions. If you want a set for your Havana dac (you need 3 per dac), send me a PM.


 
  I forgot to mention these capacitors are a give away...


----------



## kendrab

I see a few posts now about bypassing the op-amp in the PCM56P chipset. If you have done all the main upgrades in the Havana dac already, how much of an improvement is doing the op-amp bypass? What do we gain sonically?
   
  Also, at this point, the capacitors I offered have now been spoken for...


----------



## Pingfloid

Hi.
   
  I have bypassed the PCM56P chipset, as instructed, but there is almost no sound on the output (it requires to rise the volume at the amplifier at 100% and it is still too low). I am not surprised, because inserting a resistor of such a low value from signal to ground is decreasing it too much. If that resistor is needed, it will probably require more gain at the tube stage.
   
  Here are the detailed steps:
   
*1.- Remove R25 and R26*

   

   
*2.- Link pin 13 of the PCM56P chipset with the opposite extreme of R25, R26 (the one connecter to the tube grid).*
*3.- Connect the resistors (220R in my case) in between this point and Ground.*

   
*4.- Undo everything. This is not working.*
   
  I will appreciate any suggestion


----------



## robeeert1

I installed new output caps in the Havana V-caps CuTF and comparing them with Mundorfs silver/gold.
   
  V-caps are new, I have to give them some burn-in time. First impression is wow, I adore the quality.
  I will write some more after they are burnt in.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I installed new output caps in the Havana V-caps CuTF and comparing them with Mundorfs silver/gold.
> V-caps are new, I have to give them some burn-in time. First impression is wow, I adore the quality.
> I will write some more after they are burnt in.


 
   
  I can only envy you right now!


----------



## kendrab

I know I am very happy with the V-Cap setup in my Havana. I used two V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF capacitors, then bridged each capacitor with a V-Cap CuTF .1uF600VDC capacitor. My dac now has about 310 hrs on it, and sounds very nice. When I listen to some of my favorite albums, there is a whole new level of fluidity and detail to it.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kendrab said:


> I know I am very happy with the V-Cap setup in my Havana. I used two V-Cap OIMP 2.0uF capacitors, then bridged each capacitor with a V-Cap CuTF .1uF600VDC capacitor. My dac now has about 310 hrs on it, and sounds very nice. When I listen to some of my favorite albums, there is a whole new level of fluidity and detail to it.


 
   
  Yes, but I think that CuTF in place of OIMP (those who use them Robert), is another sound experience. OIMP's are the _entry level_ V-Cap, while CuTF used as output capacitors are High-End ('"The killer caps" as they were called..)
  I'm sure that sounds great to you, also! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can You add a picture with Havana?
  Thank's!
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I installed new output caps in the Havana V-caps CuTF and comparing them with Mundorfs silver/gold.
> V-caps are new, I have to give them some burn-in time. First impression is wow, I adore the quality.
> I will write some more after they are burnt in


 
   
  Robert, You didn't plan to change the Russian Silver mica capacitors?


----------



## robeeert1

To have a long story short V-caps CuTF are the killers. There is no sense to compare them with  Mundorfs.
  They sound quite different, control everything much better, Mundorfs sound like an old computer.
   
  V-caps CuTF are extremely opened caps. Unbelievable what they do in the modified Havana.
   
  I know they are bloody expensive but worth every penny !! 0.47uF is quite enough for Havana, they are fast, not slowed by a big capacitance. (bass response is great)
   
  Loserica, Russian silver Micas are great but I think is it a good idea to look for something better.
   
  v-caps ?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit:
  I'm going to replace input caps "Russian silver mica" with V-cap CuFT .01uF...
  I think they could open the DAC more.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Loserica, Russian silver Micas are great but I think is it a good idea to look for something better.
> v-caps ??
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Nice, Robert! Sure will be better.
  Can You send us a picture with Havana inside? Can You evaluate at this point Havana's sound? In what price category is now compared to a classic CD player? I know that You have invested in top quality components (Black Gates, Bendix, etc...)
   
  PS: You don't think in the near future, if you sell Mundorf caps, ... to upgrade the "rca" connectors with WBT 0210 Ag (Ms) Metal nut and Silver hook-up wire (from DH Labs), for improve coherence? 0210 Ag - Ms are one of the best connectors and believe me, Havana react positively to this change.
  it is less important compared with V-Cap CuTF, (If you have not so far..)
   
  http://www.wbtusa.com/pages/0210ags.html
   
  I think, You already achieved a completely different sound from Havana-stock! (difference day-to-night 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## robeeert1

Actually I bought the v-caps for my new DIY DAC based on TDA1541A from analoguemetric.com
  No mercy for components there, I built a genuine tube's analogue output stage  based on lampizator's scheme, (not a buffer)
  The new DAC is built of the best quality components (best ever made siemens CCA grey shields tubes, v-caps CuTF input/output, shinkoh tantalum resistors, LCR, BG, Elna caps, two r-core transformers, etc..),
  Will send pictures when it is finished in some days.
   
  I will be using the Havana in my second rig in the nearest future or sell it.
   
  I put V-caps CuTF in the Havana for curiousity and BINGO!. The caps must stay there !!!
  I will order a second pair for my DIY.
   
  You ask me about the price range, It's hard to say. It is one of the best sounding DA converters in the world now.
   
  0210AG WB solid silver are great and will use them.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> Hi.
> 
> I have bypassed the PCM56P chipset, as instructed, but there is almost no sound on the output (it requires to rise the volume at the amplifier at 100% and it is still too low). I am not surprised, because inserting a resistor of such a low value from signal to ground is decreasing it too much. If that resistor is needed, it will probably require more gain at the tube stage.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I hope you will get an answer to this question. There have been many posts here saying how bad the Havana opamp approach is. It would be nice to see how to bypass it in pictures and also get someone's listening impressions of the difference before and after.


----------



## robeeert1

Stephen,
  Niamex(Ignat) seems to be the only person who bypassed the built-in op-amps, send him PM or wait for him to appear on the thread and answer the question.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Thanks for the clarification Robert. Hopefully Niamex can post his findings so we can determine if that mod is worth pursuing.
   
  While I'm at it, thanks as well for all the great information you have posted to this thread. It has been very valuable for me and many other people, I'm sure.


----------



## robeeert1

I'm just sitting and thinking  if there is a sense to post something more about the output caps in the Havana.
   
  I mean V-caps CuTF which I have the opportunity to install in Havana and observe what they do in there.
  They're priced nearly half of the DAC itself, so it seems to be senseless to use them there.
  So these are for extreme modders,
  They turn the Havana to another higher sound level, you're going to become a slave of this sound.
  They simply create a quality level of their own. Extremely opened and mild, truth, not bloomy, the mids are reference - no dispute, I never heard so good caps like CuTF before (heard many)
   
  There are no other caps which can compete with CuTF.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I'm just sitting and thinking  if there is a sense to post something more about the output caps in the modified Havana.
> I mean V-caps CuTF which I have the opportunity to install in Havana and observe what they do in there.
> They're priced nearly half of this DAC, so it seems to be senseless to use them there.
> So this is a post for extreme modders,
> ...


 
   
  Robert, 
  I think that, this comment strengthens what you said here:
   
  "Their sound, (CuTF) has significantly more robust body compared to Aura-T or VCap TFT, giving you a more of an anchor around the mid-midrange, as opposed to more of upper-midrange/treble anchoring of Aura-T or TFT.  I know there are some people who feel  Teflon caps are "lean" in low-midrange/upper-bass area, which I don't really agree with.  However, with the new caps, one tends to realize _how much more music resides in this area_.  However, this does not mean this area is exaggerated or bloated like overcompensated  bass-reflex 2-way bookshelf speakers because linearity and transparency are excellent throughout all the ranges.
 The other thing that makes an impression is just how DETAILED these capacitors are.  Once again, combined with robust density, detail resolution is unparalleled, especially in the mid-midrange region.  Other capacitors that I love, including Mundorf silver-in-oil and AmpOhm PIO, just cannot compete with the amount of detail in these areas.  The good oils types tend to "massage" out recordings' rough edges slightly for beauty, but bad recordings have nowhere to hide with the new caps.  This also means top-notch recordings with top-notch equipment WILL show you things you've never heard before, so be careful with where you use these new caps.  With power comes responsibility, as they say.
 There's no need to mention other usual parameters such as bass, dynamics, imaging, soundstaging, etc because these aspects are in line with what's best out there.  It's just that the special combination of extraordinary  body and resolution just does not exist anywhere else.  Another quality to note  is that unlike certain teflons and "audiophile" caps, there does not seem to be any *extra* sheen or highlighting of the uppermost frequencies to flatter dull recording/systems.  If your system has been tuned to sound just right around these more "flashy" caps, you may need to re-tune your system with the new VCaps in place, but the effort would be worth it".  
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/284863/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread/285


----------



## gliderboy

Robeert,
   
  After reading this thread and initially being attracted to this DAC over claims of "no opamps" which was debunked here long ago , you now appear to be saying that your heavily modded DAC still uses theses derided internal chip opamps?  If so could I ask if you feel it is not anything that can be remedied?


----------



## redcat2

Hi,All here is a review of the Havana from my view point, i have let this burn in now for around 350 hours and have come to the Havana form a basic Paradisea so to my basic thoughts,
  The first thing is the unit is so much better build quality all so there is now no earth hum which always seemed to be there on the Paradisea unit first thing i noticed was how silent the sound and space was all most like a black silence very nice, i could here more detail the little sizzle in the end of the sound i could not here before, at 150 hours burn in the unit changed quite a bit and i found it to be a little chesty and vocals coming to far forward at around 200 hours this settled down and then the bass came in more as well. Now that we are at 350 hours i like the sound there is so much more depth and space in the sound and the unit seems to have settled down now.


----------



## rosgr63

If one uses a Balanced Stockholm or Havana in a Single End mode are both tube sections on?


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Stephen,
> Niamex(Ignat) seems to be the only person who bypassed the built-in op-amps, send him PM or wait for him to appear on the thread and answer the question.


 

 I am sorry guys I am so busy with some other stuff and simply had forgotten this project /in the meantime I have already a grandson - DAVID/ so no sense to make any suggestions before I go back there - probably end of the summer. I live now at the seaside where I miss my audio rig but as far as I remember I HAVEN:T disconnected any resistors there - just disconnected the existing connection to the grid and connected instead the grid to pin 13 plus a resistor of 161 ohms to ground. It means I was eventually using some  existing grounding because the volume was lower than original but still OK.
  I hope I am of some help.
  Best regards,
  Ignat


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





niamex said:


> I am sorry guys I am so busy with some other stuff and simply had forgotten this project /in the meantime I have already a grandson - DAVID/ so no sense to make any suggestions before I go back there - probably end of the summer.


 
  Congratulations on the arrival of your grandson.


----------



## niamex

Thanks a lot !
  I hope he will become  a head-fier !
  Cheers,


----------



## redcat2

Had an issue today with noise coming from the right channel very low when a CD would start up, tracked it down to the Bendix tube pulled out and cleaned up the feet? What do you call those, bits replaced back in Dac all is well.


----------



## rosgr63

Redcat they are called pins


----------



## redcat2

Lol,,yes i no just a blond moment!!


----------



## rosgr63

You might want to check this thread for advise on how to clean the "feet"
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/614954/deoxidizing-question


----------



## Pingfloid

[size=medium]Congratulations grandpa Niamex J[/size]
   

   
   
  [size=medium]If you do not remove R25/R26, I think that you are still receiving the OpAmp output signal from pins 9 and 10, unless you cut the PCB track or bend the pins 9 and 10 of the IC.[/size]
   
  [size=medium][/size]


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> Thanks everyone for a great thread.
> Got some more parts today. Installed the MCaps, Clarity and changed c6 fron 47uf to 100uf for added bass.
> I did this with the more afordable caps and so far with only half an hour listening I'm impressed. Hopefully will only get better.
> I think I'm finished for now though.
> ...


 

 That clarity cap 0.22uF x 630v yes? Can any body please just confirm that for me.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> That clarity cap 0.22uF x 630v yes? Can any body please just confirm that for me.


 
   

 220nF = 0,22uF


----------



## rocky500

I did an order with Hifi Collective as follows. I aready did some other mods before as well.

   1 x (SUP8-030) - 0.22uF 1200V M Cap Supreme polypropylene Caps £6.77 1 x (CCESA-030)- 0.22uF 630Vdc Claritycap ESA Range polypropylene £4.40 2 x (SUP8-120) - 2.2uF 600V M Cap Supreme polypropylene Caps £24.86 1 x NFG-790 - 100uF 25V FG Nichicon type, UFG1E101MPM £0.50 1 x NKZ-110 - 100uF 25V Nichicon KZ type, UKZ1E101MPM £0.33
   
  I had intentions of trying both the ClarityCap and MCap. Installed the clarityCap first and liked what I heard so kept tht one in.
  The 2 100uF caps I ordered were to get a matching one for the bass enhancement change. Not sure which one I actually used but it was the same brand/type as the 47uF it replaced.
   
  I never noticed too much of the changes I did, as they were all over a time period and my audio memory is not very good. Also I was changing between many brands of speakers at the time.
  I ended up selling my modded Havana to someone in another forum who already owned a stock Havana. Here was his coments back to me, once he recieved it.
   
  "DAC is here safe and sound. 5 minutes of auditioning. WOW !!!. no small difference. I'll give you a more decent report when I work out how it is so different. First impression is that my much loved Havana sounds like its's playing through a wet sock compared to the Dolly Parton mods."
  "The biggest difference between the two is  increased resolution across the frequency spectrum- whether that is because of a reduction of noise floor or whatever.
  The sound stage is wider. I'll take my time to work out as well as I can what else is going on."


----------



## redcat2

Thanks for that, i have been putting together a parts list now for around four months the hardest things to track down where the HT Jupiter caps round 2.2uf 600v but i have now done that after going around the world.


----------



## robeeert1

I posted a photo of the original BB PCM56-K chips on the page 115 this thread... This photo was taken by me!
  Now someone is using it selling pcm56p-K chips on ebay. Beware I think these are another fakes from China....
   
   
  this is my picture:
   
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-IC-BB-TI-DIP-16-PCM56P-K-PCM56PK-Made-in-KOREA-/251096155743?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a767f465f
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-IC-BB-TI-DIP-16-PCM56P-K-PCM56PK-Made-in-JAPAN-/251096154815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a767f42bf


----------



## loserica

It seem extremely cheap, ... can't be sure what is true and what fakes in electronic trading on e-bay. Original is imitated almost perfect!


----------



## rosgr63

I think you should report it to ebay.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I think you should report it to ebay.


 

 Will do it later.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks, this way you are protecting all of us.


----------



## robeeert1

reported


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks.
  How can one tell if a chip is genuine or fake?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks.
> How can one tell if a chip is genuine or fake?


 
   
  Genuine BB ones sound different.
  Maybe they are selling genuine chips - who knows, but why do they use my private photo?
  I bet these ones they are selling have different print or don't have print at all.


----------



## rosgr63

They can only use your photos with your permission, they are your property.


----------



## robeeert1

for those who are looking for genuine Japan "K" grade chips for their Havana. 4 pcs in every CD player.
   
  20 pcs of PCM56P-K for sale...
   
  picture of the main control board of these babies:


----------



## s1rrah

That's interesting, thanks for the heads up ... I'm certainly not interested in buying all five of them but if somebody manages to get him to part them out, I'll pitch in on a single unit so as to get two of the chips.
   
  Quick question ... when getting chips from boards like this do you have to solder them directly to the Havana? I wouldn't think they would have legs appropriate for the socket insert, would they?
   
  Thanks ...
   
  .joel


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> Quick question ... when getting chips from boards like this do you have to solder them directly to the Havana? I wouldn't think they would have legs appropriate for the socket insert, would they?
> 
> Thanks ...
> 
> .joel


 
   
  Joel,
 When you take the chips out of the board, they have the same legs as new ones. You put them into sockets in Havana and fire..
  Some small quantities of tin may stay, but it shouldn't bother....if so, we clean the legs..(pins)


----------



## robeeert1

I took out the chips from the control board of Technics SL-P1300 lately. Installed them in the Havana.
  These Japanese chips are the brightest and fastest I have ever heard but they are somewhat flat, 
  I'm really impressed for the speed and details. Wow...
  They are technically better than Korean "K". It is a matter of taste.
   
  Edit:
   
  There is no doubt these "K" on the photo below are the best of PCM56's.
   
  When the system is getting better than Japanese chips start to take charge. 
   
  I mean the Japanese taken out from vintage CD-player, not the shiits from China sellers from ebay.


----------



## mink70

Hi, considering getting one of these, and sorry for the blockheaded question, but I'm wondering whether the USB and Toslink inputs on the Havana accept a 24/96khz signal. Or is it only coax? Thank you!


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Hi, considering getting one of these, and sorry for the blockheaded question, but I'm wondering whether the USB and Toslink inputs on the Havana accept a 24/96khz signal. Or is it only coax? Thank you!


 

 Answer to your question is here: http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Answer to your question is here: http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm


 
  I went to graduate school and everything, but I swear I can't find the answer there. Does it mean that the Havana can only receive 24/96 signals over coax, but NOT over Tos link or USB?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> I went to graduate school and everything, but I swear I can't find the answer there. Does it mean that the Havana can only receive 24/96 signals over coax, but NOT over Tos link or USB?


 
   
  96KHz/24 bits input Spdif & toslink format. The USB input is limited to 16/44 and 16/48 KHz.


----------



## mako44

Hi all, I'm finally back ! I didn't really have the opportunity to post because of huge mass of work, change of appartement and problems of internet connection... But feel better now, I'm sorry for all those who sent me a pm I'll answer you quick !
   
  And see that you're still improving the Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I didn't have much time to listen to music lately for the same reasons, I'm going to read at the 5 last pages to see if there's something new.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> To have a long story short V-caps CuTF are the killers. There is no sense to compare them with  Mundorfs.
> They sound quite different, control everything much better, Mundorfs sound like an old computer.
> V-caps CuTF are extremely opened caps. Unbelievable what they do in the modified Havana.
> I know they are bloody expensive but worth every penny !! 0.47uF is quite enough for Havana, they are fast, not slowed by a big capacitance. (bass response is great)
> ...


 
   
  Hi,
  Some pictures of my new output capacitors:
  (After several hours of listening I am delighted by the sound of V-Cap CuTF! Beautiful!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will return with impressions after lengthy hours of running..)
   
  Thank's Robert for suggestions!


----------



## robeeert1

Looks very nice. No doubt these are really hi-end caps (best I know).
  Burn-in (play) at least 250-300h !!!
  They will open up the soundstage which will be wider and deeper definitely. And the resolution and sound texture will be to die for.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm waiting for your impressions after burning-in time period.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Looks very nice. No doubt these are really hi-end caps (best I know).
> Burn-in (play) at least 250-300h !!!
> They will open up the soundstage which will be wider and deeper definitely. And the resolution and sound texture will be to die for.
> 
> ...


 
  Robert,
  V-Cap CuTF sounded better than OIMP capacitors (and OIMP's have over 600-800 hours of burn-). I remembered an old post when you said that OIMP's are detailed, have better resolution than stock capacitors, but only that. They lack accurate rendering of the entire frequency spectrum and lack musicality, refinement. It is. First thing I noticed is that CuTF cap's are more detalied from OIMP, they have high bass and treble extension. Human voice has a higher realism and is fuller, more coherent played. Still perceive in sound somewhat a limiting factor, slight roughness, etc...
   
  I hope to be really excited after burning-in time period. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Thank's.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





> Still perceive in sound somewhat a limiting factor, slight roughness, etc...


 
   
  Everything will change in 300h of playing... you'll see, you will not recognize the DAC


----------



## MomijiTMO

robeeert1 said:


> Everything will change in 300h of playing... you'll see, *you will not recognize the DAC*




Not sure if serious...


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





momijitmo said:


> Not sure if serious...


 
   
  I'd say he's serious.


----------



## MomijiTMO




----------



## redcat2

I have changed how i communicate with the Havana, i have changed from using the coaxial input to using the Toslink input i purchased an Van Den Hul Toslink 2 cable, love it can here more detail in every aspect of the sound.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> I have changed how i communicate with the Havana, i have changed from using the coaxial input to using the Toslink input i purchased an Van Den Hul Toslink 2 cable, love it can here more detail in every aspect of the sound.


 
   
  Interesting option ..
  Havana is extremely sensitive to the power cable, also. I remember for example, when I changed Clearer Audio (Alpha Copper-line) with AudioQuest NRG-5, I felt an immediate improvement in dynamic, sound-stage and details. I had a similar feeling when I changed the transport (hiFace with Legato). Sound has become not only more detailed, but more refined, more naturally expressed! So, I can say that is important also the digital signal quality given by source and transport. All contribute to what makes this converter an excellent option for music playback through the computer, for who uses him as source. If I was asked before five years if it is possible to achieve this quality through computers, It was hard to believe. Havana can compete in this way with any dedicated CD player (I say, on the category 1.500 - 2.500$).


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Interesting option ..
> Havana is extremely sensitive to the power cable, also. I remember for example, when I changed Clearer Audio (Alpha Copper-line) with AudioQuest NRG-5, I felt an immediate improvement in dynamic, sound-stage and details. I had a similar feeling when I changed the transport (hiFace with Legato). Sound has become not only more detailed, but more refined, more naturally expressed! So, I can say that is important also the digital signal quality given by source and transport. All contribute to what makes this converter an excellent option for music playback through the computer, for who uses him as source. If I was asked before five years if it is possible to achieve this quality through computers, It was hard to believe. Havana can compete in this way with any dedicated CD player (I say, on the category 1.500 - 2.500$).


 

 CD player is my means of delivery Quad CDP-2, yes power cables big believer in clean power and power box,s which i have good quality power cables on the Havana makes i big difference.
  I tried out three cables before settling on this one: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-5M-5FT-US-Mains-Power-OFC-Cable-Shield-Cord-IEC-Plug-Turntable-Hi-Fi-CPH2S-/300706745555?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item460384ccd3
   
  With an AU plug combination.


----------



## rosgr63

What Coaxial cable are you using?
  That's important too.
  In theory the Coaxial input should be better than the Optical one.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> What Coaxial cable are you using?
> That's important too.
> In theory the Coaxial input should be better than the Optical one.


 

 I use a cable with _BNC_ terminations at both ends which is shipped with Legato.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I use a cable with _BNC_ terminations at both ends which is shipped with Legato.


 
   
  Did you pull the coaxial jack and replace it with a BNC chassis jack?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Did you pull the coaxial jack and replace it with a BNC chassis jack?


 

 Yes, I replace the rca coaxial jack with a BNC chassis jack. I don't agree to use adapters.
   
  @Stephen,
  I have said here, to not pollute the forum; the one I bought is indeed _Vampire_ bnc (the model to which you refer).
  But, in a previous post, _Niamex _suggested to try this one: becouse it is better that Vampire- berrilium copper -  http://bg.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/5222092-1/jack-bnc-75ohm-rt-a-pcb-au/dp/1831680?Ntt=1831680 -
  Now, I don't know what to say..


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Parts Connexion has some Vampire bnc pcb connectors. Are these the kind you used? My usb to spdif unit has both bnc and rca outputs and I was thinking I might switch over to bnc. I was reading that a straight coax cable connection is the best for spdif transmission.


----------



## Pingfloid

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Havana is extremely sensitive to the power cable, also. I remember for example, when I changed Clearer Audio (Alpha Copper-line) with AudioQuest NRG-5, I felt an immediate improvement in dynamic, sound-stage and details. I had a similar feeling when I changed the transport (hiFace with Legato). Sound has become not only more detailed, but more refined, more naturally expressed! So, I can say that is important also the digital signal quality given by source and transport. All contribute to what makes this converter an excellent option for music playback through the computer, for who uses him as source. If I was asked before five years if it is possible to achieve this quality through computers, It was hard to believe. Havana can compete in this way with any dedicated CD player (I say, on the category 1.500 - 2.500$).


 
   
  How is the Havana sensitive to the power cables inside the house? and to the female plug on the wall? and to the quality of the Electrical Meter? and the distribution box with all the protection devices? and the cables that go from the Electrical Meter of the house to the Power Transformer on the Street? Have you replaced them? It is all in the same electrical circuit (the secondary of the power transformer on the street) and it is a law that the best possible quality is determined by the worst part of that circuit, no matter how much gold you add to a portion of that circuit


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> How is the Havana sensitive to the power cables inside the house? and to the female plug on the wall? and to the quality of the Electrical Meter? and the distribution box with all the protection devices? and the cables that go from the Electrical Meter of the house to the Power Transformer on the Street? Have you replaced them? It is all in the same electrical circuit (the secondary of the power transformer on the street) and it is a law that the best possible quality is determined by the worst part of that circuit, no matter how much gold you add to a portion of that circuit


 
   
  I don't know what to answer you about them, I know only that: for example, with AudioQuest NRG-5  the sound is expressed more natural, with better texture and layering. I directly compared with Clearer Audio - Alpha CopperLine.
  Other opinions?
   
  PS: I noticed that late night, supplied by the electricity is cleaner and the result is a superior sound quality. I hope, ..not placebo. Theoretically, the current is not affected by many sources of pollution acting during the day. I don't know how to solve the distribution box with all the protection devices this problem (I living in apartment building).


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





momijitmo said:


> Not sure if serious...


 
   
  I evaluate the sound after approximately 50-100 hours of burning-in. CuTF certainly changed a lot! The most obvious changes are at dynamics, details, rezolution. The sound becomes more transparent and coherent.
  I will return after 250-300 hours with impressions.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Everything will change in 300h of playing... you'll see, you will not recognize the DAC


 
   
  Robert,
  I am absolutely convinced right now, that the stock Havana and the dac changed with what was posted on this forum _plus CuTF_, are two different DACs (unrecognizable!) Begin to understand what they were saying: in the absence of V-Cap CuTF, .. there is no high end! (saying that, I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy CuTF, just say so: the differences from OIMP's are important for a truly audiophile audition!!).


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





> Robert,  I am absolutely convinced right now, that the stock Havana and the dac changed with what was posted on this forum _plus CuTF_, are two different DACs (unrecognizable!) Begin to understand what they were saying: in the absence of V-Cap CuTF, .. there is no high end! (saying that, I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy CuTF, just say so: the differences from OIMP's are important for a truly audiophile audition!!).


 
   
_No CuTF - no hi-end sound_ - that's absolutely true statemant, the most effective upgrade of all I made so far, and the most expensive.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  There are caps which could probably compete with CuTF,
   
  http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_duelund_pio_elec_new.html
   
  they have very good price now , tempting me


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> _No CuTF - no hi-end sound_ - that's absolutely true statemant, the most effective upgrade of all I made so far, and the most expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Naturally, as sound CuTF to the first 100 hours burning-in, I wouldn't look for anything... but nothing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I keep wondering (you know what I mean here), and it's a shame, because some might to form a bias in this, and wonder: it is Havana that sounds like this!?? Waw...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am so happy that I chose this path to upgrade to the extreme-mode, I would say, this DAC. Even if these capacitors are not cheap, it fully deserved! Very much.
  (Of course, Duelund would be in principle the number one competitor for CuTF, but not interest me; not at this special moment, where I savor the beauty).
  Amazing how the sound changed pitch (timbre) from the first moment when I heard for the first time this DAC; and even before the upgrade of output capacitors. Amazing!


----------



## .Sup

loserica said:


> I don't know what to answer you about them, I know only that: for example, with AudioQuest NRG-5  the sound is expressed more natural, with better texture and layering. I directly compared with Clearer Audio - Alpha CopperLine.
> Other opinions?
> 
> PS: I noticed that late night, supplied by the electricity is cleaner and the result is a superior sound quality. I hope, ..not placebo. Theoretically, the current is not affected by many sources of pollution acting during the day. I don't know how to solve the distribution box with all the protection devices this problem (I living in apartment building).



Its placebo. Everything sounds better late at night when you are tired.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Naturally, as sound CuTF to the first 100 hours burning-in, I wouldn't look for anything... but nothing!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think any capacitor you chose to put in above the stock ones supplied would sound better, i chose to replace mine with Jupiter HT round bees wax 2.2uf x 600vdc and love them.
  I am glade you love your new capacitors.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> I think any capacitor you chose to put in above the stock ones supplied would sound better, i chose to replace mine with Jupiter HT round bees wax 2.2uf x 600vdc and love them.
> I am glade you love your new capacitors.


 

 Yes, It is true. But, here talking about _how good can it sound compared_. And I am absolutely convinced that Jupiter HT is one of those capacitors that wearing the audition on the heights of emotion and musicality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  If I could go back to remember OIMP's sound (it had over 500 hours of burning-in), once again: the _major _difference is made ​​whether they are or not the High-End capacitors! And clear, OIMP's aren't. Differences from what they are capable of sound ...(V-Cap CUTF), and that said and Robert, are huge! Simply, no terms of comparison becouse the sound is amazing change. 
   
  This is what said Robert, in a private conversation (I can afford to do public): 
   
  "Mundorfs do have separated layers, but v-caps have much better depth (no seperated layers), all layers are combined creating breathtaking better DEPTH of the image, the soundstage is much deeper and _coherent_ with V-caps. (I never heard so well coherent soundstage)
  But the most important thing is TRANSPARANCY and RESOLUTION incomparably better the Mundorf's have.
  V-caps CuTF have a very characteristic sound... _It's hard to describe, it's like you turned off all "loudness filters" and added max resolution_".
   
  ..I never heard Mundorf, but I can imagine (sound from OIMP's is changed completely). 
  I remember that, that to me is significant: "It's hard to describe, it's like you turned off all loudness filters and added max. resolution".  Yes, ... there is all that can Havana in terms of max. resolution!


----------



## mink70

Quick question: I'm considering a Havana or Stockholm, and wondering whether it's possible to influence the sound, especially finesse the upper-midrange/treble area, with tube substitution. I have a pair of speakers that produce fairly forthright highs (not bright, just forthright—mid-70s-vintage Tannoy Ardens with cast metal horn tweeters) and every DAC I've tried so far (DACport LX, Tranquility, etc.) tends to sound at least somewhat hard and grating in that region. Can the Havana be "tuned" with a more mid- or bass-centric tube choice?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Quick question: I'm considering a Havana or Stockholm, and wondering whether it's possible to influence the sound, especially finesse the upper-midrange/treble area, with tube substitution. I have a pair of speakers that produce fairly forthright highs (not bright, just forthright—mid-70s-vintage Tannoy Ardens with cast metal horn tweeters) and every DAC I've tried so far (DACport LX, Tranquility, etc.) tends to sound at least somewhat hard and grating in that region. Can the Havana be "tuned" with a more mid- or bass-centric tube choice?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 

 On a personal note i would say yes, i first purchased a Paradise Dac before the Havana on the hope it would take out some of the brightens/treble at the time i was running a Wadia6 with Martin Logan speakers and found the sound to bright at the top end, very sharp at some points and just wanted to take that edge of it and give it some warmth.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Quick question: I'm considering a Havana or Stockholm, and wondering whether it's possible to influence the sound, especially finesse the upper-midrange/treble area, with tube substitution. I have a pair of speakers that produce fairly forthright highs (not bright, just forthright—mid-70s-vintage Tannoy Ardens with cast metal horn tweeters) and every DAC I've tried so far (DACport LX, Tranquility, etc.) tends to sound at least somewhat hard and grating in that region. Can the Havana be "tuned" with a more mid- or bass-centric tube choice?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 
   
  Yes.  WE396A would be a very good starting point ... as would the stock tube, in fact.


----------



## Pingfloid

My favourite output caps are the Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap
   
  1.- They provide the same quality as the ultra expensive ones.
  2.- They do not require "burn" time; they sound good since the first minute


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> My favourite output caps are the Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap
> 
> 1.- They provide the same quality as the ultra expensive ones.
> 2.- They do not require "burn" time; they sound good since the first minute


 
   
  On: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html, I found this:
   
"Technical specifications: metallized polypropylene film, high-grade silver lead wire. The finish is a flame-retardant tape wrap, and the end of the caps is resin sealed to protect against humidity. Loss angle tan = 0.00002 to 1K; Loss angle tan = 0.00001 to 10K.
Sound: More transparent than the less expensive Superior Z-Cap, very detailed. Sometimes too detailed for my liking which makes them less coherent than the Superior Z-Cap. They give some emphasis on the upper treble but are still more civilised than a Clarity Cap SA for example; they have a so-called “high-end” flair. Objectively speaking they are better than the Superior Z-Cap but I prefer the Superior Z-Cap for it’s more neutral presentation. I guess you could call the Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap the “audiophile” capacitor and the Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap the “musical” capacitor".
   
  ...they are called with "audiophile" claims.
   
  @Pingfloid
  What other capacitors have tried (in Havana)? About what you said here, do not know what to say (I understand the "burn"-thing). It's shame that we can not meet somewhere to test upgraded DAC's in several stages.
  Another aspect is the fact that, there are other important changes here and supporting the signal quality that reaches to out capacitors. Remaind them: electrolytic caps, film caps, the tube, chips, resistors, etc, and after... quality connectors. All counts.
  Once again, I have some reservations and I think that the differences between the output capacitors can make substantial differences in sound! (There is a part of subjectivity as well).
  You have to wish me luck in burning-in!


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> _No CuTF - no hi-end sound_ - that's absolutely true statemant, the most effective upgrade of all I made so far, and the most expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Any compromises using 0.47uF caps?  I'm thinking bass.  Any possibility of going lower?  It would be great if 0.22uF would work as they are less than half the price and also available in 300V for a better fit.
   
  After having just replaced the coupling caps in my Almarro A205A MkII with CuTF I am salivating.  The improvement transformation is truly astounding!  Among the many other superlatives, I have never heard timbres so real before.  I have an Almarro A318B SET on the way and am planning on replacing the coupling caps on those as well.  Incidentally the stock value is 0.47uF so if it's not a huge improvement there I can stick them in the Havana.  I am not counting on coming to that conclusion, though, so it would be nice to be able to buy a lower value and smaller cap for the Havana.
   
  Ugh, I feel an (expensive) addiction coming...


----------



## rosgr63

Nice.
  The tube addiction will soon follow!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Any compromises using 0.47uF caps?  I'm thinking bass.  Any possibility of going lower?  It would be great if 0.22uF would work as they are less than half the price and also available in 300V for a better fit.
> 
> After having just replaced the coupling caps in my Almarro A205A MkII with CuTF I am salivating.  The improvement transformation is truly astounding!  Among the many other superlatives, I have never heard timbres so real before.  I have an Almarro A318B SET on the way and am planning on replacing the coupling caps on those as well.  Incidentally the stock value is 0.47uF so if it's not a huge improvement there I can stick them in the Havana.  I am not counting on coming to that conclusion, though, so it would be nice to be able to buy a lower value and smaller cap for the Havana.
> 
> Ugh, I feel an (expensive) addiction coming...


 

 Bass is faster and deeper with CuTF  .47uF compared with Mundorf 2,2uF and the stock ones,
   
  Due to CuTF are very expensive I didn't installed there other values than .47uF but I think .22uF would fit there, too.
   
   
  I'm going to order .22 CuTF to filter CS8414... I don't expect much, just curious....


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Bass is faster and deeper with CuTF  .47uF compared with Mundorf 2,2uF and the stock ones,
> 
> Due to CuTF are very expensive I didn't installed there other values than .47uF but I think .22uF would fit there, too.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks, Robert.  If it's not too much trouble can you try the .22 CuTF as output coupling caps to see if/how they work?  I think it would be great for the Havana user community to know if we can get the super CuTF sound for a lot less $$.
   
  Beyond output caps, tubes, fuses, and K grade chips, what is the next mod providing the most impact in your experience?
   
  I really appreciate what you and others here have contributed to getting so much more performance out of this DAC.  It is a special piece that I've held onto while so much other gear has come and gone.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Thanks, Robert.  If it's not too much trouble can you try the .22 CuTF as output coupling caps to see if/how they work?  I think it would be great for the Havana user community to know if we can get the super CuTF sound for a lot less $$.
> 
> Beyond output caps, tubes, fuses, and K grade chips, what is the next mod providing the most impact in your experience?
> 
> I really appreciate what you and others here have contributed to getting so much more performance out of this DAC.  It is a special piece that I've held onto while so much other gear has come and gone.


 

 Of course I will try .22 as output caps but .47 is a better fit I suppose.
  Beyond these pointed try to improve power supply (shottky diodes, better transformer), it always helps the sound.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Of course I will try .22 as output caps but .47 is a better fit I suppose.
> Beyond these pointed try to improve power supply (shottky diodes, better transformer), it always helps the sound.


 
   
  Fantastic!  I will give the transformer a try.  This one?
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251077692849&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160
   
  I need some guidance on installing it, though.  I have looked through the pictures in this thread and I think I got it, but it would be good for you to confirm so I can feel more confident that I won't burn my house down or kill myself.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Sorry, I know little about electronics, though I'm starting to get comfortable with a soldering iron and am using this DAC to learn on.
   
  Please tell me:
   
  - I am in the U.S. -- this should work for 115V power with the green input wire, yes?
   
  - For the input connector, I connect the hot wire (in my case, green) to the hole nearest to the power cord plug and the black neutral wire to the hole on the opposite end towards the front of the DAC?  What is this 4 pin connector called, so I know how to buy it?  How is it installed?  Soldered or crimped?
   
  - The green+yellow wire is case ground and soldered directly to the ground pin on the power cord inlet?
   
  - The blue and white wires are all the same 9V so it does not matter which of the three holes in the middle connector they go in?  I noticed the stock transformer wires connecting in alternating order (green, black, green) and you have them wired white, blue, blue.  What is the 3-pin connector called?
   
  - Same as above for the 15V brown and yellow wires connected nearest to the front of the DAC.
   
  - Do I have to remove and _can_ I remove C5 and/or C25 caps?  That is do either of them have to go or will anything break if they both go?
   
  - Any retrofitting needed to mount it to the PCB?  Any particular tools needed that I should be aware of?
   
  I am also looking into the Shinkoh resistors but it looks like 100R 1W isn't available anymore.  Can 82R or 120R be substituted?
   
  Again, many thanks.


----------



## robeeert1

All information needed for replacing the transformer you have on the page 102 this thread,
  remove C5 if the sound is too dark for you (this cap ought to be removed in extreme mods)
   
  100R value made by Shinkoh is out of stock indeed, get Audio Note resistor or get Shinkoh's 82R (values + - 20% are always ok.)
  Unfortunately Shinkoh's tantalum resistors are out of production. If I were you I would get 82R made by Shinkoh.
   
  If you have any doubts you can handle with replacing the transformer by yourself, you *better ask someone to do the job for you* !


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> All information needed for replacing the transformer you have on the page 102 this thread,
> remove C5 if the sound is too dark for you (this cap ought to be removed in extreme mods)
> 
> 100R value made by Shinkoh is out of stock indeed, get Audio Note resistor or get Shinkoh's 82R (values + - 20% are always ok.)
> ...


 
   
  Excellent, the installation looks pretty straight forward except one thing... I see now that of each pair of same colored output wires one is hot and one is 0V, but how can you tell which one is which?  Are they labeled as such in any way?
   
  Thanks for the info on the resistor.  I will get the 82R Shinkoh... and throw in some Schottky diodes while I'm at it.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Thanks, Robert.  If it's not too much trouble can you try the .22 CuTF as output coupling caps to see if/how they work?  I think it would be great for the Havana user community to know if we can get the super CuTF sound for a lot less $$.
> Beyond output caps, tubes, fuses, and K grade chips, what is the next mod providing the most impact in your experience?
> I really appreciate what you and others here have contributed to getting so much more performance out of this DAC.  It is a special piece that I've held onto while so much other gear has come and gone.


 
   
  I want to confirm what he said Robert, ..CuTF sounds great at Havana (bass is present in audition both quantitatively and qualitatively, with 0.47 uF).
  The next mod providing the most impact...well, Robert is again quite right: shottky diodes, R-Core transformer, Shinkoh Tantalum resistors, electrolytic caps, ...and I would add the Sanyo Oscon capacitors implementation on the back of the motherboard (page 126). Havana is quite limited in the resolution section from my point of view, quite low in micro detail rendering of sound. For me, these Oscon capacitors helped me to gain micro details and to open the sound considerably across mid and high frequencies. Differences in terms of sound-transparency and micro details are _large_ between the stock and the full upgrade Havana. Yes, and you may take into consideration quality connectors (eg. WBT, + Silver hook-up wire from DH-Labs).


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I see now that of each pair of same colored output wires one is hot and one is 0V, but how can you tell which one is which?  Are they labeled as such in any way?


 
   
  They are not labeled in any way. You have to experiment  and switch the cables if needed.


----------



## mink70

My Havana arrived in the mail last night from the previous owner, already broken in. It came with a few tubes, including two US-made Tung Sol 2C51s, but I wanted to hear it completely stock, with the GE tube and a no-name power cord. I sat in my chair for an hour, slack jawed. I have never, not once, been able to listen to digital for simple enjoyment. I've owned a dozed CD players, probably half a dozen DACs, and have heard many more. It's always been a case of damage control—how much of the hollow, etched, sharp, ghostly sound that digital is known for can the player banish? It was never very much—always the listening left me some flavor of tense and disappointed. Even a good friend's $30K DCS stack set the teeth on edge when listening to a carelessly mastered Billy Holiday on Verve CD. And the Halide HD that I had a chance to borrow recently did away with the the edge, for the most part, but also the detail and inner life. The Havana, however, did several things I've never heard, and honestly wasn't sure were possible—not only did it make music pleasant to listen to, but it made made it completely exciting. I could play anything, regardless of the recording quality, not worrying about the sound, and everything made want to listen more. I felt totally relaxed and found myself simply enjoying the music—thinking about the performance instead of the sound. The lousy sounding CD rip of "Rock Lobster" made me dance around my chair. As it should. The Havana even has tone—a beautiful, mellow, delicate tone—dead-on timing, and plenty of detail to make the listening exciting from an audiophile point of view. But the way it presents detail is special. It's the first digital source I've heard that manages to convey detail without etching it into the soundfield. It's there the way detail occurs during a good live performance, being richly present but not localized with pinpoint, video-game specificity. That can be a cool effect but it's also a digital artifact that does not occur when hearing live music. In other words, I'm gobsmacked by the Havana. It allowed me to enjoy digital files from my Mac in the same way I enjoy listening to LPs on my Garrard 301 turntable, and I honestly wasn't sure I'd ever be able to say that. No, the Havana isn't quite as good as a complex, well-oiled vinyl, moving-coil, and transformer setup, but it's satisfying in the same way. The fact that I bought it used for $500 makes it almost reality-defying. Elephant-size props to MHDT in Taiwan. 
   
  One question: I noticed that I got the best sound via USB, using a custom cable from Larry Moore of Ultra-Fi. When I tried an optical cable (4' Lifatec Silflex glass Toslink-to-Mini) the sound stage got higher and deeper, but the tone became slightly more strident and, most importantly, the timing sounded off, with the beat plodding. Going back to USB made timbres sound richer and every drum beat and bass note was just where it belonged. Has anyone had good experiences with the optical input on the Havana? Is it markedly inferior to Coax and USB?
   
  So excited. Can't wait to try the Tung Sol.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> They are not labeled in any way. You have to experiment  and switch the cables if needed.


 
   
  Yikes.  Any chance of damage in any incorrect configuration?


----------



## robeeert1

You better not experiment with incorrect configuration.. make a correct connection and enjoy the improvement..


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> My Havana arrived in the mail last night from the previous owner, already broken in. It came with a few tubes, including two US-made Tung Sol 2C51s, but I wanted to hear it completely stock, with the GE tube and a no-name power cord. I sat in my chair for an hour, slack jawed. I have never, not once, been able to listen to digital for simple enjoyment. I've owned a dozed CD players, probably half a dozen DACs, and have heard many more. It's always been a case of damage control—how much of the hollow, etched, sharp, ghostly sound that digital is known for can the player banish? It was never very much—always the listening left me some flavor of tense and disappointed. Even a good friend's $30K DCS stack set the teeth on edge when listening to a carelessly mastered Billy Holiday on Verve CD. And the Halide HD that I had a chance to borrow recently did away with the the edge, for the most part, but also the detail and inner life. The Havana, however, did several things I've never heard, and honestly wasn't sure were possible—not only did it make music pleasant to listen to, but it made made it completely exciting. I could play anything, regardless of the recording quality, not worrying about the sound, and everything made want to listen more. I felt totally relaxed and found myself simply enjoying the music—thinking about the performance instead of the sound. The lousy sounding CD rip of "Rock Lobster" made me dance around my chair. As it should. The Havana even has tone—a beautiful, mellow, delicate tone—dead-on timing, and plenty of detail to make the listening exciting from an audiophile point of view. But the way it presents detail is special. It's the first digital source I've heard that manages to convey detail without etching it into the soundfield. It's there the way detail occurs during a good live performance, being richly present but not localized with pinpoint, video-game specificity. That can be a cool effect but it's also a digital artifact that does not occur when hearing live music. In other words, I'm gobsmacked by the Havana. It allowed me to enjoy digital files from my Mac in the same way I enjoy listening to LPs on my Garrard 301 turntable, and I honestly wasn't sure I'd ever be able to say that. No, the Havana isn't quite as good as a complex, well-oiled vinyl, moving-coil, and transformer setup, but it's satisfying in the same way. The fact that I bought it used for $500 makes it almost reality-defying. Elephant-size props to MHDT in Taiwan.
> 
> One question: I noticed that I got the best sound via USB, using a custom cable from Larry Moore of Ultra-Fi. When I tried an optical cable (4' Lifatec Silflex glass Toslink-to-Mini) the sound stage got higher and deeper, but the tone became slightly more strident and, most importantly, the timing sounded off, with the beat plodding. Going back to USB made timbres sound richer and every drum beat and bass note was just where it belonged. Has anyone had good experiences with the optical input on the Havana? Is it markedly inferior to Coax and USB?
> 
> So excited. Can't wait to try the Tung Sol.


 
   
  I have found the Havana USB input to be the worst interface and actually used it for a long time with a Wireworld Supernova 5+ TOSlink, but the best interface by far in my experience is using an external low jitter USB-SPDIF converter with a BNC cable (BNC-RCA adapter on the DAC end unless you switch out the RCA input for a BNC).  These are very popular now and there are many options from about $100 (Hiface) to $4k+ (Soulution 590).  I am now using a Wavelength Wavelink HS with Black Cat Silverstar 75 cable and it is miles better than any of the stock inputs.
   
  Have fun with this DAC.  There are many improvements to be made, as you can see by the length and longevity of this thread.  First and foremost is the tube.  The Russian 6N3P-DR is an incredible value at less than $10 a pop new on eBay with a good balance between dynamics, extension, and rich tone.  Since you seem to like a smooth, lush type of sound you would probably enjoy the Bendix 2C51 ($) or 6385 ($$$).  Western Electric 396a/2c51 is the most popular choice, but too much compromise in warmth and body compared to the Bendix for me.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You better not experiment with incorrect configuration.. make a correct connection and enjoy the improvement..


 
   
  I mean is there a chance of damage with an incorrect configuration between blue/white and yellow/brown as long as you keep different colors on each end of the connector?  Since two like colors (0V and +) are not labeled, you have a 3/4 chance of getting it wrong the first time.  Do you test by just plugging it in and see if you get sound?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Do you test by just plugging it in and see if you get sound?


 
   
  No, I measure the voltages first and when I'm absolutely sure that everything is ok. I plug the connectors in the DAC


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> No, I measure the voltages first and when I'm absolutely sure that everything is ok. I plug the connectors in the DAC


 
   
  Oh OK.  So install the transformer with all the connectors installed, plug in the input connector, leave the output connectors unplugged, connect a power cord, turn on power switch, and measure the voltage across the pins on the output connectors.  If any voltages are wrong, turn off the power switch, unplug power cord, rewire and try again.  Does that sound right?  Sorry for asking so many questions.  Just don't want to mess up.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Oh OK.  So install the transformer with all the connectors installed, plug in the input connector, leave the output connectors unplugged, connect a power cord, turn on power switch, and measure the voltage across the pins on the output connectors.  If any voltages are wrong, turn off the power switch, unplug power cord, rewire and try again.  Does that sound right?  Sorry for asking so many questions.  Just don't want to mess up.


 

 yes, something like that


----------



## loserica

mink70 said:


> One question: I noticed that I got the best sound via USB, using a custom cable from Larry Moore of Ultra-Fi. When I tried an optical cable (4' Lifatec Silflex glass Toslink-to-Mini) the sound stage got higher and deeper, but the tone became slightly more strident and, most importantly, the timing sounded off, with the beat plodding. Going back to USB made timbres sound richer and every drum beat and bass note was just where it belonged. Has anyone had good experiences with the optical input on the Havana? Is it markedly inferior to Coax and USB?
> 
> So excited. Can't wait to try the Tung Sol.


 
   
  The best choice as is said @kimchee411 is to use an external low jitter USB-SPDIF converter with a BNC cable! I'm not encourage to use adapters, but in my case wasn't needed. Legato has a bnc output also. Fairest would be to implement a bnc-input conector instead of the stock. You wouldn't belive what changes would be in sound if you interpolate between your Mac and Havana an external converter like LEGATO!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Havana will breathe differently, with significant improvement on layering section, texture and rendering firmly bass!! Is unbelievable how low can go down bass with Legato (it has very low jitter..)
   
  hiFace not convinced me just only partially in these chapters, but it is stil an option with a great value/price.
   
  You find here a small _summary_ about Usb-SPDIF converters:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/534094/usb-to-spif-converter-for-500
   
   Quote:


kimchee411 said:


> I have found the Havana USB input to be the worst interface and actually used it for a long time with a Wireworld Supernova 5+ TOSlink, but the best interface by far in my experience is using an external low jitter USB-SPDIF converter with a BNC cable (BNC-RCA adapter on the DAC end unless you switch out the RCA input for a BNC).  These are very popular now and there are many options from about $100 (Hiface) to $4k+ (Soulution 590).  I am now using a Wavelength Wavelink HS with Black Cat Silverstar 75 cable and it is miles better than any of the stock inputs.


 
   
  I have testet the Wireworld Supernova 5+ TOSlink cable on Lavry DA10 and I found substantial improvements from other cables (eg. Chord Prodac Pro Digital). Supernova 5+ is excellent.
  Anyway Legato comes with its own cable, and that I think is somewhat optimized.  A friend compared the cable supplied with a _more expensive_ cable and was surprised to find that the latter wasn't better.


----------



## mink70

Thanks for the responses. There's still just a touch of edge and bright, strident sound that I'm getting with the Havana (though my speakers admittedly are unforgiving in this regard) and I've been experimenting with tubes, AC polarity and power cords.  Interestingly, the stock (GE '87) tube sounds the smoothest in my system, while the Tung Sols and the older GE add more treble, which doesn't work with my speakers. I'd love to make it richer yet, and get rid of the last vestiges of hardness and brightness. Can anyone suggest something further? I'm happy to buy additional tubes—is the JW Western Electric 396A the one with the least prominent treble among the major contenders? Something with fairly gentle or even reticent highs—tubes, cables, etc.—would probably work well. Thanks in advance.


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I have found the Havana USB input to be the worst interface and actually used it for a long time with a Wireworld Supernova 5+ TOSlink, but the best interface by far in my experience is using an external low jitter USB-SPDIF converter with a BNC cable (BNC-RCA adapter on the DAC end unless you switch out the RCA input for a BNC).  These are very popular now and there are many options from about $100 (Hiface) to $4k+ (Soulution 590).  I am now using a Wavelength Wavelink HS with Black Cat Silverstar 75 cable and it is miles better than any of the stock inputs.
> 
> Have fun with this DAC.  There are many improvements to be made, as you can see by the length and longevity of this thread.  First and foremost is the tube.  The Russian 6N3P-DR is an incredible value at less than $10 a pop new on eBay with a good balance between dynamics, extension, and rich tone.  Since you seem to like a smooth, lush type of sound you would probably enjoy the Bendix 2C51 ($) or 6385 ($$$).  Western Electric 396a/2c51 is the most popular choice, but too much compromise in warmth and body compared to the Bendix for me.


 
   
  Thanks kimchee—one question. What changes can be expected when using a USB-SPDIF converter over the stock inputs? Is it the usual detail-bass stuff, or does it actually alleviate the hardness/brightness thing? Thanks, Alex.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> So to do! If I hadn't so happy, I wouldn't insist. But, Robert, if you think is the best upgrade as quality-price ratio! (,,,besides, R-Core). I'm not able yet to evaluate how much help in sound R-Core compared with implementing the Oscon capacitors, but never mind. This upgrade is not that others, is a _critical _up-grade one even! Havana needs to open sea in this way by a lot of micro-details! It does all the charm of listening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  For me it's the major problem of havana, i don't know if we speak about the same thing but on my system it feels too dark, like introverted, shy... I had the opportunity to test other dacs recently like Euphya Junction - 2000 euros - and music is more alive, foot taping, punchy. I talked about my difficulties to find the good balance to Robert 2 months ago then he sent me the 6385 tube and I admit it's a very good one but it doesn't solve this introverted feeling i feel listening to havana dac.
   
  I don't know if it's a problem with my dac and components I put inside (whereas it's common ones most of you used too) because nobody seems to meet the same feeling here, but on my system it's clearly too shy a bit like if the dac was still sleeping and needed too wake up. I don't speak about a question of tastes : on my mind havana is clearly introverted compared to other ones. At least mine. So it's sweet, fluent, emotion's here but a bit too boring after a while, you want to rmove a kind of veil on music and say "now go and swing". Unfortunately i have very few time at the moment to look at it. Am I the only one do feel this ?
   
  EDIT : i didn't change the transformer with the R-core so may be it would improve this point ? I neither didn't change all the 0.01uf caps, I don't know if it may play


----------



## robeeert1

Makko44,
   
  We can do whatever you want with the sound of the Havana... it's a matter of what components are used there inside...
   
  If you feel your Havana is too dark and lifeless then first try to remove c5, and give us the impressions ...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Thanks for the responses. There's still just a touch of edge and bright, strident sound that I'm getting with the Havana (though my speakers admittedly are unforgiving in this regard) and I've been experimenting with tubes, AC polarity and power cords.  Interestingly,* the stock (GE '87) tube sounds the smoothest in my system, while the Tung Sols and the older GE add more treble, which doesn't work with my speakers.* I'd love to make it richer yet, and get rid of the last vestiges of hardness and brightness. Can anyone suggest something further? I'm happy to buy additional tubes—is the JW Western Electric 396A the one with the least prominent treble among the major contenders? Something with fairly gentle or even reticent highs—tubes, cables, etc.—would probably work well. Thanks in advance.


 
   
  JWWE396a and Bednidx 6385 are not for you then, try Russian 6N3P - it's the sweetest and even warmer than the stock GE with restrained highs..


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> For me it's the major problem of havana, i don't know if we speak about the same thing but on my system it feels too dark, like introverted, shy... I had the opportunity to test other dacs recently like Euphya Junction - 2000 euros - and music is more alive, foot taping, punchy. I talked about my difficulties to find the good balance to Robert 2 months ago then he sent me the 6385 tube and I admit it's a very good one but it doesn't solve this introverted feeling i feel listening to havana dac.
> 
> I don't know if it's a problem with my dac and components I put inside (whereas it's common ones most of you used too) because nobody seems to meet the same feeling here, but on my system it's clearly too shy a bit like if the dac was still sleeping and needed too wake up. I don't speak about a question of tastes : on my mind havana is clearly introverted compared to other ones. At least mine. So it's sweet, fluent, emotion's here but a bit too boring after a while, you want to rmove a kind of veil on music and say "now go and swing". Unfortunately i have very few time at the moment to look at it. Am I the only one do feel this ?
> EDIT : i didn't change the transformer with the R-core so may be it would improve this point ? I neither didn't change all the 0.01uf caps, I don't know if it may play


 
   
  @mako44,
   
  I know the sound of Havana before ...
   
  Here's what I think: here is the recipe from my point of view, to become _more_ transparent, with more open-sound, more resolutely and stop completely the dark sound perception and anemic level of resolution&micro details playback:
  - R-Core installation & remove C5 film cap (it is mandatory);
  - implement Sanyo Oscon's in _both_ sections (Havana react very positively if you put Oscon's on the analog section!). Usually they are excellent on digital section only. Once they were installed there, you will perceive more shades of high frequencies, they will be quantitatively more present in the audition;
  - replace the stock connectors with WBT 0210-Ag (Ms - metal nut) RCA _"Next Gen"  _Pure Silver and Silver hook-up wire (DH Labs);
  - for a sound detached from the point of view of expressiveness and for a considerable punchy, sonic attack, etc... you need to consider seriously (if you're willing to invest so), to change the output capacitors with V-Cap CuTF!! You don't come to believe how can enrich the sound in terms of details, transparency and resolution after you put these capacitors. Output capacitors are most strongly, the most decisive impact on sound quality.
  (Is clear: without this luxury it is impossible to get playing this DAC where you really want).


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> - for a sound detached from the point of view of expressivenesV-Cap CuTF!! You don't come to believe how can enrich the sound in terms of details, transparency and resolution after you put these capacitors. Output capacitors are most strongly, the most decisive impact on sound quality.


 
   
  No CuTF, no top-end sound, Mundorfs, Jantzens, Jensens or whatever you install there are not even close the CuTF, in my opinion the caps have their own the highest quality class possible not reachable for others for a while )
   
  I think it's too much tequila for tonight.


----------



## rosgr63

Naughty boy!


----------



## robeeert1

I bought lot of 5 Technics SL-P1300 CD-players. The boards with chips came this morning. I desoldered the first matched quad and compared the two pairs each other - they sound the same, really awesome sound, much better than from the Japanese K I currently have in my Havana, unbelievable... my old Japanese K are worse sounding, how is it possible?
   
  Will all quads sound different? This is what I'm going to find out.
   
  So this weekend I'm comparing 8 pairs of PCM56P-K genuine Japanese to one another.
  Someone would say this is insane, they should sound the same... but I think not.. First quad I have just soldered out is far better than old mine.
  It is going to be a very nice experience.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I bought lot of 5 Technics SL-P1300 CD-players. The boards with chips came this morning. I desoldered the first matched quad and compared the two pairs each other - they sound the same, really awesome sound, much better than from the Japanese K I currently have in my Havana, unbelievable... my old Japanese K are worse sounding, how is it possible?
> Will all quads sound different? This is what I'm going to find out.
> So this weekend I'm comparing 8 pairs of PCM56P-K genuine Japanese to one another.
> Someone would say this is insane, they should sound the same... but I think not.. First quad I have just soldered out is far better than old mine.
> It is going to be a very nice experience.


 
   
  Heavy-duty!


----------



## robeeert1

I'm 100% sure that the companies had to pair chips for their hi-end CD-players.
  Pairs coming from the same player sound the same.
  Every quad has different characteristic of the sound, they sound close but not the same !
   
  It is easily heard on transparent systems.


----------



## kimchee411

Ugh, I ended up buying the wrong R-core transformer.  230V only when the photo had 115/230.  If anybody lives in 230V land and wants this, PM me...


----------



## mako44

Robert & Ioserica,
   
  I listened carefully to the havana last week and during several hours, what I didn't have the opportunity to do for June, with the 6385 tube robert selled me and I must say it was much better than before with LS Ericsson 2c51 tube. It was even sexy and very pleasant to listen to now 6385 tube is burnt. More balanced, more sexy than ericsson tube with a full body sound lot of matter (i'm not sure of the translation of this word). Beautiful voices, a sensual feeling. On the other hand I loose accuracy and transparency, air, some small details but curiously this dark feeling bother me less now even if 6385 tube goes farer on low frequencies. I think it's just better balanced and more musical. Less surgical.
   
  As i couldn't find the right sound I was to be to test some other dacs, especially the Etalon Supradac, but I feel like improving havana dac again for last week. I think if I can keep this balance and improve details and transparency it should be "perfect". I already removed c5 cap however I can still change connectors (I have WBT next gen connectors at home but couldn't remove the old ones I don't know why they don't come, I'll try again). I don't feel self confident enough to change r-core transformer but i'll see if i can find a solution. Why not put vcap cutf caps also as it would be cheaper than buy a new dac anyway... However Sanyo Oscon are difficult to find isn't it ?
   
  This listening was a good surprise !


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> The best choice as is said @kimchee411 is to use an external low jitter USB-SPDIF converter with a BNC cable! I'm not encourage to use adapters, but in my case wasn't needed. Legato has a bnc output also. Fairest would be to implement a bnc-input conector instead of the stock. You wouldn't belive what changes would be in sound if you interpolate between your Mac and Havana an external converter like LEGATO!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I already spoke about it here but it's good enough to remind it again : if you don't want to invest in a spdif converter and play your music from a computer you can also try the Jplay software solution. Jplay has the same effect this is to say to reduce the jitter and transform your computer in a good drive. Havana is VERY sentitive to this. I don't know if it's as good as stello, audiophilleo and so on but with me Jplay dramatically improves the sound. It costs 100 euros but you can try it free before to make your mind.
   
  You can of course use Jplay and an spdif converter in the same time. It works with foobar, jriver or standalone. I recommend it. http://jplay.eu/


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> As i couldn't find the right sound I was to be to test some other dacs, especially the Etalon Supradac, but I feel like improving havana dac again for last week. I think if I can keep this balance and improve details and transparency it should be "perfect". I already removed c5 cap however I can still change connectors (I have WBT next gen connectors at home but couldn't remove the old ones I don't know why they don't come, I'll try again). I don't feel self confident enough to change r-core transformer but i'll see if i can find a solution. Why not put vcap cutf caps also as it would be cheaper than buy a new dac anyway... However Sanyo Oscon are difficult to find isn't it ?
> 
> This listening was a good surprise !


 
  Yes, Oscon's are difficult to find... However, the good news is that you liked the sound of Bendix 6385. Havana is refined over and over after doing an critical upgrade. If you have the patience to do the output capacitors upgrade (with Cutf) and the R-Core, and...probably one of the genuine Japanese K-grade chips 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so..I think you should to reach the point of maximum satisfaction with this converter!! (just my opinion, I don't want to influence you at all). For me, almost every time hearing Havana, emotion is present in audition. 
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I already spoke about it here but it's good enough to remind it again : if you don't want to invest in a spdif converter and play your music from a computer you can also try the Jplay software solution. Jplay has the same effect this is to say to reduce the jitter and transform your computer in a good drive. Havana is VERY sentitive to this. I don't know if it's as good as stello, audiophilleo and so on but with me Jplay dramatically improves the sound. It costs 100 euros but you can try it free before to make your mind.
> You can of course use Jplay and an spdif converter in the same time. It works with foobar, jriver or standalone. I recommend it. http://jplay.eu/


 
  It is true. Havana is VERY sensitive to digital signal quality.


----------



## mink70

I'm a very recent Havana owner, and last week, based on the recommendations in this thread, I picked up a WE JW 2c51 tube (1949 date code) and a Halide Bridge SPDIF converter. I've listened and made some interesting observations. First, the WE tube, compared to the stock GE, is richer, bassier and more realistic in almost every way, bit it's also brighter, adding more of a strident edge to recordings. (The Tung-Sol is brighter still.) And then, more surprisingly, the Bridge, with its asynchronous protocol, made the Havana sound more detailed, propulsive and pristine, but at the expense of the rich, gooey tone I've been getting with a direct USB connection using a Larry Moore (double-stranded) USB cable. In comparison, it made the recordings sound more digital—thinner, tilted up, and lighter. Not at all what I expected. 
   
  I realize that this is a question of synergy, and that my speakers (Tannoy Ardens) are fairly unforgiving of brightness and treble edge. I love the sound of the Havana, but I'm trying to banish the last bit hardness in the highs. So far, the WE tube and the Bridge seem to be busts in my application. I've experimented with polarity, switching USB ports on my MacBook Pro, and power cords (all create audible changes on the Havana). I have some Russian 6N3P-DRs on order. Can anyone recommend any other ways to relax the highs on the Havana? I'd love to make the Havana work in my system, and I'm deeply grateful for any suggestions.


----------



## mako44

may be the cause is your cables, what do you use to link your amp, havana and halide ?
   
  I don't remember WE jw 2c51 tube is harsh on trebles are you sure it's burnt in ?


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> may be the cause is your cables, what do you use to link your amp, havana and halide ?
> 
> I don't remember WE jw 2c51 tube is harsh on trebles are you sure it's burnt in ?


 
   
  The cables: Shindo tube components connected with Analysis Plus ICs and Auditorium24 speaker cables.
   
  I haven't burned in the tube. It was labelled "like new," not NOS (new old stock), and I didn't think a previously-used 63-year-old tube needed burn-in. Am I wrong?


----------



## niamex

Hi there,
  I think Robert made a wrong try buying them CD players. My opinion is that ONLY DENON selection is good - the signs of the chips are green colored / K and J grade/.
  IMHO
  Regards,
  Ignat


----------



## robeeert1

I had green ones and sold them, did not like them much. Korean K are better,
  These from Technics are better than Korean. This is my opinion only... you may feel different.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> I'm a very recent Havana owner, and last week, based on the recommendations in this thread, I picked up a WE JW 2c51 tube (1949 date code) and a Halide Bridge SPDIF converter. I've listened and made some interesting observations. First, the WE tube, compared to the stock GE, is richer, bassier and more realistic in almost every way, bit it's also brighter, adding more of a strident edge to recordings. (The Tung-Sol is brighter still.) And then, more surprisingly, the Bridge, with its asynchronous protocol, made the Havana sound more detailed, propulsive and pristine, but at the expense of the rich, gooey tone I've been getting with a direct USB connection using a Larry Moore (double-stranded) USB cable. In comparison, it made the recordings sound more digital—thinner, tilted up, and lighter. Not at all what I expected.
> 
> I realize that this is a question of synergy, and that my speakers (Tannoy Ardens) are fairly unforgiving of brightness and treble edge. I love the sound of the Havana, but I'm trying to banish the last bit hardness in the highs. So far, the WE tube and the Bridge seem to be busts in my application. I've experimented with polarity, switching USB ports on my MacBook Pro, and power cords (all create audible changes on the Havana). I have some Russian 6N3P-DRs on order. Can anyone recommend any other ways to relax the highs on the Havana? I'd love to make the Havana work in my system, and I'm deeply grateful for any suggestions.


 
   
  Try the JKSPDIF Mk3 USB-SPDIF converter.  It has an easy, relaxed sound, yet detailed, transparent, and natural.  I much preferred it to the Audiophilleo, which I found hard in the upper mids/lower treble.  Actually I will have one to sell in a few weeks if you're interested.
   
  I don't think I've ever heard this DAC described as bright.  What amp/pre are you using?


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I want to confirm what he said Robert, ..CuTF sounds great at Havana (bass is present in audition both quantitatively and qualitatively, with 0.47 uF).
> The next mod providing the most impact...well, Robert is again quite right: shottky diodes, R-Core transformer, Shinkoh Tantalum resistors, electrolytic caps, ...and I would add the Sanyo Oscon capacitors implementation on the back of the motherboard (page 126). Havana is quite limited in the resolution section from my point of view, quite low in micro detail rendering of sound. For me, these Oscon capacitors helped me to gain micro details and to open the sound considerably across mid and high frequencies. Differences in terms of sound-transparency and micro details are _large_ between the stock and the full upgrade Havana. Yes, and you may take into consideration quality connectors (eg. WBT, + Silver hook-up wire from DH-Labs).


 
   
  Can you tell me exactly where you placed the Oscon caps?  Sorry if it's already been explained, but I didn't see that info.  Are they soldered to the same joints as other caps in parallel?  Also, were they a really tight fit in terms of height?  I bought some 4.7 uF from eBay but realized they are 16V, which are 2.4mm taller.  Hopefully they will fit!


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Can you tell me exactly where you placed the Oscon caps?  Sorry if it's already been explained, but I didn't see that info.  Are they soldered to the same joints as other caps in parallel?  Also, were they a really tight fit in terms of height?  I bought some 4.7 uF from eBay but realized they are 16V, which are 2.4mm taller.  Hopefully they will fit!


 
   
  Return to previous post: You need Sanyo Oscon, 4,7uF, 10V; 10 pcs. Six were implemented on digital section and four on analog section of the dac. Usually they are excellent on digital section only!!
   
  What is new about this movement? Enough to deserve. Notable differences are in terms of texture and micro details. Layering and micro details,...I'm glad because Havana is capable of its! Ambient noises, are finally present in audition. Higher frequencies, they are more present, but played very natural. I think we can speak of a slight widening of the resolution at this time (it takes several days of burning, of course ...) Once they were installed there, you will perceive more shades of high frequencies, they will be quantitatively more present in the audition;
   
  I understand that 10V Oscon's no longer in stock..and the same problem: space and matching.
  Idea is that if he had a different model, you could mount them otherwise (I chose normal, or standing, but it can and invert to 90 degrees, only to carefully measure the available space in height, approx. 6 mm). Mine are the right ones, as you've already noticed.
   
  Obvious, I recommend this upgrade.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> No CuTF, no top-end sound, Mundorfs, Jantzens, Jensens or whatever you install there are not even close the CuTF, in my opinion the caps have their own the highest quality class possible not reachable for others for a while )


 
   
  I'm back to CuTF impressions:
  After about 300 hours of burning-in, CuTF really reveals their potential! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Not only a substantial opening sound and the texture to die for, but  "much better depth (no seperated layers), all layers are combined creating breathtaking better DEPTH of the image, the soundstage is much deeper and coherent with V-caps CuTF. (I never heard so well coherent soundstage)" It is absolutely gorgeous, and these layers of instruments... and the "life-like" feeling... V-Cap CuTF seems almost to perfection and do _wonders_ on this DAC, without any reservation.
  PS: differences between the first 50 hours and after 300 hours of burning-in are huge!!


----------



## mako44

I'll buy two 0.47uf vcap cutf for output next month, do you think it's worth to put this caps elsewhere on havana for example on C12, or even c14... ? (currently i have mundorf s/g/o, clarity cap mr, jupiter so quite good ones).


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I'll buy two 0.47uf vcap cutf for output next month, do you think it's worth to put this caps elsewhere on havana for example on C12, or even c14... ? (currently i have mundorf s/g/o, clarity cap mr, jupiter so quite good ones).


 
   
  @mako44,
  I suggest you, if you decided to make this upgrade, just change the output capacitors; let the remaining components as they are. CuTF will bring you the maximum resolution that is capable Havana and they are placed exactly in the critical section... You have a very good chance to be happy with the final result, just by changing the 0,47 uF capacitors. However, be sure it's the best upgrade possible compared to others that I've done so far  (convince yourself of this after 300 hours of burning-in). 
  All the best,


----------



## mako44

ok thanks Ios ! Some money saved then


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





loserica said:


> PS: differences between the first 50 hours and after 300 hours of burning-in are huge!!


 
   As I told you, they need burning in like fish need water 
   
  I adore the quality with CuTF.


----------



## mink70

I know the topic on this thread seems mostly to be about capacitors, but I'm wondering whether anyone can weigh in on a strange issue. I've had my Havana, bought used, for a few weeks, and I have to admit that I can't figure out what's happening. Fact is, it's sounding different from day to day. When I first listened to it with a WE JW 2c51 tube a week ago, from a Mac over USB, it sounded kind of edgy and still wiry in the treble, as it had with the other tubes I've tried. After a few days, the sound changed to the point where the WE tube began to sound very soft, with rolled off treble, reduced dynamics and detail. I figured it had simply burned in, so I popped in a Tung-Sol, which restored dynamics and grunt, and also made the treble a little edgy. When I went back to the WE, it was sounding forward and big again, with an edgy treble. NOTHING else had changed. This has been the story all along. Some days the Havana sounds lush and lovely, others it's edgy and harsh—even when nothing else has changed. I'm listening to Amarra 2.4.1 on a MacBook Pro. Could something be up with the Havana, or perhaps something on the computer/software side? I know this sounds weird. Has anyone experienced anything like this?


----------



## preproman

Who can I contact to perform these upgrades for me for a donation?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> I know the topic on this thread seems mostly to be about capacitors, but I'm wondering whether anyone can weigh in on a strange issue. I've had my Havana, bought used, for a few weeks, and I have to admit that I can't figure out what's happening. Fact is, it's sounding different from day to day. When I first listened to it with a WE JW 2c51 tube a week ago, from a Mac over USB, it sounded kind of edgy and still wiry in the treble, as it had with the other tubes I've tried. After a few days, the sound changed to the point where the WE tube began to sound very soft, with rolled off treble, reduced dynamics and detail. I figured it had simply burned in, so I popped in a Tung-Sol, which restored dynamics and grunt, and also made the treble a little edgy. When I went back to the WE, it was sounding forward and big again, with an edgy treble. NOTHING else had changed. This has been the story all along. Some days the Havana sounds lush and lovely, others it's edgy and harsh—even when nothing else has changed. I'm listening to Amarra 2.4.1 on a MacBook Pro. Could something be up with the Havana, or perhaps something on the computer/software side? I know this sounds weird. Has anyone experienced anything like this?


 
   
  One problem is that it's hard to make an objective evaluation without prior testing of all setup components (matching, synergy, influence of cables, transport, etc). Taking now only the DAC, we mostly recommended upgrades that we personally tested into Havana and have given some of the best sound results. But again we face the problem of balance the whole setup...
  Solution of digital signal output from Mac over USB is good, my only clear suggestion that I can give now is to replace Amarra with Pure Music! (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/). From my point of wiev, PM offers a superior sound stage and transparency. Of course you may do some optimizations on your Mac, but the player remains the base.


----------



## kimchee411

OK, so I replaced V-Cap OIMP output caps for 0.47 uF CuTF last night... HOLY SMOKES you guys weren't kidding.  These caps just raise this DAC to an entirely new level!  I took the caps out of an amp I had just put them in but decided not to keep and they only have about 100 hours on them so I'm sure things will continue to get substantially better up to 300-500 hours.
   
  I also installed the Shinkoh Tantalum resistors at the same time so I'm sure that was a contributing factor.  Aside from that I installed the Vishay 200V diodes and 1000uF Elna Silmic II a few days ago.  Anyway I am going all-in with this DAC now and am going to buy another one.  It already has better tone and texture than the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 and is getting there in terms of transparency and image precision.
   
  On the way:
  - R-core transformer
  - 470uF 35V Elna Silmic II
  - (4) Elna Tonerex 3300uF 35V
   
  Just ordered:
  - (2) V-Cap CuTF 0.01 uF 600V 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  - WBT 0210-Ag RCA connectors
  - Vampire BNC connector
  - (5) Elna Silmic II 47uF 25V
  - (8) Elna Silmic II 100uF 25V
  - (3) Elna Silmic II 470uF 16V
  - (2) Elna Silmic II 100uF 50V
   
  - Clarity Cap ESA 0.22uF 630V
  - Russian silver mica 0.01uF 250V
   
   
  Unfortunately I can't find the Auricap 0.1uF/400V or the correct size Oscons for the underside.  Any recommendations for other 0.1uF caps that are small enough to replace all those little MHDT caps?
   
  I have seen discussions of replacing 2 of the 47uF/25V caps with 100uF values, which I have accounted for.  Any other cap values recommended for changing?   Aside from that I pretty much just looked at the existing Nichicons and planned to replace with Elna Silmic II.
   
  The Elna Silmic II appear to be too big for the 2 little 100uF/50V caps behind the TOSlink input.  Anybody change those and if so, with what?
   
  Thanks to all the contributors to this thread.  I am in love with this DAC all over again.


----------



## kimchee411

I'm going to buy another CuTF 0.01uF to try on C12 instead of the Russian silver mica, but because of the size it would pretty much be sitting on top of the resistors around it.  Could this pose any heat issues with the cap or resistors?  Doesn't seem like those small resistors would produce a lot of heat but just thought I'd ask.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I'll buy two 0.47uf vcap cutf for output next month, do you think it's worth to put this caps elsewhere on havana for example on C12, or even c14... ? (currently i have mundorf s/g/o, clarity cap mr, jupiter so quite good ones).


 

 I am sorry I am not following the tread but do you mean replacing the output 2,2 caps with CuTF 0,47 ?


----------



## mako44

you're absolutely right I don't know why I wrote 0.47 uf I meant 2.2uf of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Kimchee I hesitate to buy a vcap cutf for c12 too but Ioserica thinks it's not necessary. Currently i have a Clarity MR cap on c12 which is quite big and it works fine : 35x25mm. If I'm not wrong 0.1uf vcap cutf are 30x11mm so it should fit without problem but the others will confirm it's not dangerous for other components. It's like this for 4 months on my dac and it's ok but of course the clarity cap is above all the others : it doesn't look made for being here.
   
  Take care about your impressions on vcap cutf if you changed shinkoh tantalum as well, i remmeber that they have a big impact on sound and immediately (no burn in) so the change you hear on sound is also due to them, not only vcap (if i'm not wrong it had to do with better textures, silk sound, fluent).
   
  Regarding Auricap on Audiocap they say they sould receive new ones in 2-3 weeks. I tested Silver mica caps but the ones I got were disapointing : i didn't hear a lot of improvements with them at the opposite of clarity mr caps (very opened) or jupiter (very good too).


----------



## niamex

The caps value depends very much on the rig - in my case Chris Venhaus recommended 3,3 uF for deeper bass and was right - you can try with some cheaper brand for a test.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> you're absolutely right I don't know why I wrote 0.47 uf I meant 2.2uf of course
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  0.47 is correct in place of the 2.2/2.0uF output caps and it works *great*.  CuTF only goes up to 1.0uF and I think would be too large to fit.
   
  I'm sure the Tantalum provided some of the improvement I heard, but I have no doubt most of it came from the CuTF.  Based on my past experiences with this cap the sound is consistent (and gorgeous).  I've gone ahead and added another .01 CuTF for C12, so output caps + C12-C14 all CuTF.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The little ones aren't super expensive like the output caps so I figure what the hell.  I am a believer in these caps.
   
  Thanks for the heads up on the Auricaps.  I'll have to think about buying them from Audiocap as I'm in the USA and considering the exchange rate and number of caps for 2 DACs the cost is very steep, upwards of $450.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Is the improvement in this mod worth that much?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> you're absolutely right I don't know why I wrote 0.47 uf I meant 2.2uf of course
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't think if you can find CuTF in these parameters. Search on site, or trying to contact Mr. Chris VenHaus. On the other hand, make sure to fit in.
   
  Sit easily!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Teflon capacitors are burning-in extremely hard, and will have the opportunity after a few hundred hours (but minimum 300 hours!), to compare each contribution. But you're right, of course. I remember that I adored the change in sound on Shinkoh T. resistors. They have contributed to a better perception of the effect given by the tube, "with better textures, silk sound, fluent".  CuTF not only bring this improvement at higher rates, but provides support where this DAC is most deficient (the really critical points): transparency, scene depth&layering, the background,  micro-details, a superior resolution and LOTS OF AIR - around instruments (coherence).  All these are present naturally and completely with these capacitors. 
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I had green ones and sold them, did not like them much. Korean K are better,
> These from Technics are better than Korean. This is my opinion only... you may feel different.


 
   
  I broke a pin on K-grade Korean chips  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 when I removed of the socket.  The socket on the right side was very close of V-Cap capacitor... Ufff... Then I installed the Japanese chips from Technics, to get over anger. After a few minutes of listening, I can forget the Korean chips becouse those from Robert are clearly better! Are better in terms of transparency, speed and resolution (superior layering, also).
  Robert, you were absolutely right. These chips are welcome, and I couldn't imagine the audition without them. Anyone who wants to upgrade the output capacitors with CuTF, should take into serious account these chips. With these, Havana came very close to its topology. Is all it can give in terms of resolution.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> OK, so I replaced V-Cap OIMP output caps for 0.47 uF CuTF last night... HOLY SMOKES you guys weren't kidding.  These caps just raise this DAC to an entirely new level!  I took the caps out of an amp I had just put them in but decided not to keep and they only have about 100 hours on them so I'm sure things will continue to get substantially better up to 300-500 hours.
> I also installed the Shinkoh Tantalum resistors at the same time so I'm sure that was a contributing factor.  Aside from that I installed the Vishay 200V diodes and 1000uF Elna Silmic II a few days ago.  Anyway I am going all-in with this DAC now and am going to buy another one.  It already has better tone and texture than the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 and is getting there in terms of transparency and image precision.
> Thanks to all the contributors to this thread.  I am in love with this DAC all over again.


 
   
  @ kimchee411,
   
  I'm glad to hear it. I must confess that I gave suggestions with V-Cap CuTF (absolutely determined) just when I was least 250-300 hours of burning-in. Breathe deeply! They will sound completely different at the level of coherence&resolution!, after 300 hours (it will disappear completely any trace of harshness in sound) and will sound as harmonious ...
  OIMP's was a kind of child's play, seriously.
   
  PS: I repeat what I said before: these chips from Robert emphasize even more potential (of CuTF)!!! High's are so well highlighted, crystal sound. Piano and flute, guitar, violin, all sounds more natural and superior in terms of credibility. Micro details of background noise scene, are shown _separately_. ..What? Come on!... This one I've never heard it before, quite frankly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I think it would be a shame to not try these chips, believe me! I conclude: V-Cap CuTF & K -"grade" Japanese chips "prepare your trip to the moon",  like he told me Robert.  
  I have to say, I never thought before as Havana is capable of such a thing! ... so clear, so homogeneous & coherent sound, lots of micro-details, and such a resolution. It's awesome!


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> 0.47 is correct in place of the 2.2/2.0uF output caps and it works *great*.  CuTF only goes up to 1.0uF and I think would be too large to fit.


 
   
  CuTF 0.47uF used in Havana circuit  as output caps gives 85% of improvement, shinkoh tantalum resistors 15%.
  0.47 seems to be optimum value.
   
  Bass response is great with 0.47uf, much better than from OIMP's and Mundorfs 2,2uF or higher... with 0,47uF is deeper and faster and much better quality...
*bass is not slowed by a big capacitance,*
  You will never believe until you try...
   
  I'm not going to persuade anyone to buy CuTF, no way, like Niamex said, test cheaper ones like Mundorfs, Jensens, etc...
  But you will never reach the maximum qaulity of this DAC without CuTF
  Differences are huge with or without these caps.
   
   
  Chips PCM56P-K from Technics SL-P1300 are the best I tried so far.


----------



## mako44

@ Kimchee : i felt several times on available Auricap Xo caps on internet, the new caps from auricap, they're a bit longer and expensive than common ones but may be it could solve your problem ?


----------



## kimchee411

I saw the Auricap XO, but think I will hold off until some reasonably priced original Auricaps pop up, or just forgo them altogether.  The XO are a fair deal larger in diameter and some of those 0.1uF polys are already a tight fit with the stock ones.
   
  Installed the R-core transformer, eight 100uF/25V Elna Silmic IIs, three 0.01uF CuTF, and C12 Clarity Cap ESA last night.  Back tracking a little, I listened to the DAC before doing the work and the sound had improved substantially than 2 days prior when I last listened -- more open, coherent sound, natural tone -- it was sounding fantastic.  Now after the next mods I have gotten great improvements in micro and macro dynamics, temporal and spatial precision, and even more detail!  I can now say with confidence that this surpasses the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 in every way except maybe, MAYBE image precision, micro dynamics, and soundstage depth, and if not it is VERY close.  Soundstage is widest I've ever had in my system and lateral separation of instruments is superb.  This is with the aforementioned parts pretty much fresh out of the box and other mods including output caps not fully broken in.
   
  Parts coming: five 47uF/25V + four 100uF/50V + three 470uF/16V Silmic IIs, Elna Tonerex 3300uF/35V, WBT 0210-Ag Ms RCA connectors, Vampire BNC connector, and Japanese PCM56P-K chips from vintage Technics (thanks, Robert!  Currently using new stock Malaysian K grade).
   
  I am absolutely floored that the neat little Havana that I have known and loved can sound like this serious piece of high end gear.  Anyway, I will save the hyperbole until everything else is installed and burned in.


----------



## mako44

Precision and micro details are not the strong points of havana (more musical than precise/pro dac) having said that it can still be improved on your setup with cutf caps, oscons or the parts you'll receive soon. The tube plays too : 2c51 ericsson is very opened and precise wheras JW WE396A or Bendix 6385 are less (but I still prefer 6385 on my system for its musicality).
   
  At the moment I wouldn't recommend my havana to someone who wants a particularly precise and analytical dac, but I still have several things to change that should improve at least resolution and air, so I would be able to judge at this moment. In any case havana's musicality is great, I can't listen to it for 12 days as my hdd is broken but last time I listened to it i was seduced by its sensuality, something I find just hard to find without losing too much precision & realism. 
   
  Regarding Auricap, I'm afraid common ones are now discontinued and replaced by Xo so thay may be hard to find.


----------



## kimchee411

Agreed, those are not the strong points of the Havana, but they can be vastly improved with mods and become quite good nonetheless.  I have CuTF caps at output coupling and C11-C14 and although I am not in the best position to say that these alone provide extreme benefits since I did many mods at the same time, it has been said before and I am not inclined to disagree.  But, I am a bit fanatical about them in general.
   
  I am not seeing where those Oscons go from the photo on page 126/137... are you guys adding these directly at arbitrary places in the trace (no holes)?  I have the 4.7uF/16V versions and they will just *barely* fit if lying sideways under the board.
   
  Also, I tried removing C5 and while it did liven things up a bit, images lost an appreciable amount of depth and weight so I put it back.  I am using this in a speaker set up so it is more important to me than through cans.  It does tell me that the 0.1uF polys make a noticeable difference so I may consider the Auricap XO after everything else is done and settled in.
   
  Anybody experiment with internal damping?  Especially those that have inserted large components that "float" off the board?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kimchee411* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I am not seeing where those Oscons go from the photo on page 126/137... are you guys adding these directly at arbitrary places in the trace (no holes)?  I have the 4.7uF/16V versions and they will just *barely* fit if lying sideways under the board.


 
  No holes for Oscons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is an unconventional up-grade, of course. It is advisable to leave in the hands of electronics (someone who knows and has done this) to mounting these capacitors. Should be studied carefully the scheme and know exactly where her stick. 
  From my point of view, this upgrade gave me the best value for price. Micro-details are highlighted better and it is extremely important for Havana, it is deficient in micro-detail rendering.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Also, I tried removing C5 and while it did liven things up a bit, images lost an appreciable amount of depth and weight so I put it back.  I am using this in a speaker set up so it is more important to me than through cans.  It does tell me that the 0.1uF polys make a noticeable difference so I may consider the Auricap XO after everything else is done and settled in.
> 
> Anybody experiment with internal damping?  Especially those that have inserted large components that "float" off the board?


 
   
  I also use it with speakers and I don't remember I lost depth or width but I made it a long time ago. Anyway it's ok (could be better especially in depth but not a problem). Regarding Xo Caps if you take the 0.1uf 400v they're 0.59"D x 0.55"L so I think it should fit into. 0.1uf 600v must be too long. I tried with 0.1uf Jupiter HT and it doesn't fit everywhere on my dac (not really too wide but too long).
   
  I think you'd better solder these caps first as you'll may have to desolder other ones after to put them inside.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Parts coming: five 47uF/25V + four 100uF/50V + three 470uF/16V Silmic IIs, Elna Tonerex 3300uF/35V, WBT 0210-Ag Ms RCA connectors, Vampire BNC connector, and Japanese PCM56P-K chips from vintage Technics (thanks, Robert!  Currently using new stock Malaysian K grade).


 
   
  You will see that WBT 0210-Ag and the Japanese K-chips you will make a more accurate stereo image. Coherence of left and right sound channels and depth of sound field will be better!


----------



## mink70

So I've combed through this thread several times and still can't solve an essential problem—the Havana, in my speaker system, still has a bit of edge and hardness in the low treble. Here's what I've tried to ameliorate the problem—NOS tubes (WE JW 2c51, Tung Sol, GE, Russian 63NP-DR), Halide Bridge, Stello U2 (bought but haven't tried yet—arriving soon), Synergistic Research Basik and JPS digital power cords, fancy USB cables (Wireword, Larry Moore, Voodoo), fancy Toslink cable (Lifatec glass). USB-SPDIF conversion does sound better than direct USB or Toslink, but also brighter. Can anyone suggest a way to tame the Havana a little more? It's the best DAC I've heard, and I can hear it's promise, I just need to get the tonal balance right. Many thanks in advance. Alex.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> So I've combed through this thread several times and still can't solve an essential problem—the Havana, in my speaker system, still has a bit of edge and hardness in the low treble. Here's what I've tried to ameliorate the problem—NOS tubes (WE JW 2c51, Tung Sol, GE, Russian 63NP-DR), Halide Bridge, Stello U2 (bought but haven't tried yet—arriving soon), Synergistic Research Basik and JPS digital power cords, fancy USB cables (Wireword, Larry Moore, Voodoo), fancy Toslink cable (Lifatec glass). USB-SPDIF conversion does sound better than direct USB or Toslink, but also brighter. Can anyone suggest a way to tame the Havana a little more? It's the best DAC I've heard, and I can hear it's promise, I just need to get the tonal balance right. Many thanks in advance. Alex.


 
   
  For your situation I would lean in the direction of interconnects, speaker cables, and to a lesser extent power cords.  Try some that are known to be more relaxed on the top end.  From my experience I say avoid JPS and Audience, also anything silver.  Maybe Cardas.
   
  Again, JKSPDIF Mk3 helped me with this issue vs. Audiophilleo.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> So I've combed through this thread several times and still can't solve an essential problem—the Havana, in my speaker system, still has a bit of edge and hardness in the low treble. Here's what I've tried to ameliorate the problem—NOS tubes (WE JW 2c51, Tung Sol, GE, Russian 63NP-DR),


 
   
  Try Russian 6N3P (not DR version) to tame the DAC.


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Try Russian 6N3P (not DR version) to tame the DAC.


 
  Does the DR version sound brighter?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Does the DR version sound brighter?


 

 yes


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> yes


 
  Any other tubes that could work, maybe NOS?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Any other tubes that could work, maybe NOS?


 
   
  You say your DAC has screaming hights even with the stock tube, then my advice is to try Russian 6N3P.
  The sweetest of the sweetest


----------



## kimchee411

I was asked for photos of the 0.01uF CuTF caps inside the Havana so I thought I'd share them in case anybody else would be interested.  Here they are...


----------



## mako44

Nice, they fit inside well. But your Clarity Cap takes a lot of place oo
   
  By the way if it interests someone I put Clarity cap MR on C12 and on input but will switch them with Jupiter HT because I hear a slight lack of musicality, a kind of dryness sometimes (especially on highs). Works fine most of the time but the more I reduce Jitter with Jplay the more it's obvious (jplay can be a bit harsh on treble with some settings). I think Jupiter may be more kind on this aspect, I'll tell you.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I was asked for photos of the 0.01uF CuTF caps inside the Havana so I thought I'd share them in case anybody else would be interested.  Here they are...


 
   
  Looks very nice, I wonder how they compare with silver micas. I'm also ordering .01uF of CuTF...


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Nice, they fit inside well. But your Clarity Cap takes a lot of place oo
> 
> By the way if it interests someone I put Clarity cap MR on C12 and on input but will switch them with Jupiter HT because I hear a slight lack of musicality, a kind of dryness sometimes (especially on highs). Works fine most of the time but the more I reduce Jitter with Jplay the more it's obvious (jplay can be a bit harsh on treble with some settings). I think Jupiter may be more kind on this aspect, I'll tell you.


 
   
  Yeah, the Clarity cap actually fit just right with the stock Nichicon 470uF/16 to the left of it, but then I replaced it with the Elna and had to put it in that awkward position because it is much bigger.  If I had put in the Elna first I could raise the Clarity Cap and move it over to the right a bit on top of the MHDT cap, but now my leads are too short.
   
  For me I think Jupiter would be too warm.  As it is I am looking more towards the direction of definition/incisiveness/transparency.  Last night I replaced the power supply caps with Elna Tonerex 3300uF/25V and swapped the RCA input for Vampire BNC.  These definitely added some more inner detail/definition and also airy highs and liquid midrange.  Bass seemed a bit wooly but I'm sure will get better with burn in time.
   
  Tonight I put in the WBT silver RCAs -- I'm anxious to see what that brings to the table.  Then I just wait for the vintage Japanese K grade chips and 6 Auricaps I was able to find and I'm probably done!


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You say your DAC has screaming hights even with the stock tube, then my advice is to try Russian 6N3P.
> The sweetest of the sweetest


 
  So not the DR or EV or E, just a plain vanilla 6N3P? Does anyone else have experience with this tube? The manufacturer's website seems not to think of them too highly.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> So not the DR or EV or E, just a plain vanilla 6N3P? Does anyone else have experience with this tube? The manufacturer's website seems not to think of them too highly.


 
   
  I never heard about that tube. I'm not sure you should look for the reason of your problem on havana dac but on something else in your setup because, even if havana is not perfect on trebles, it's usually not a problem with highs. It's more rolled off than accurate and harsh. Did you change something in it or is it the stock one ? May be this dac highlights a default your system aready had ?... Difficult to say as I don't know most of your products.
   
   
  Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> For me I think Jupiter would be too warm.  As it is I am looking more towards the direction of definition/incisiveness/transparency.


 
   
  I agree with you that's why I chose the Clarity Mr which are known for their fantastic transparency and focus on recordings atmospheres. I must say it works great except this slight lack of musicality/dryness (that I impute to clarity caps but may be it's not the case). You give me a doubt now i wouldn't loose too many details and atmosphere feelings. May be I should wait to install vcaps cutf and the rest before changing.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> So not the DR or EV or E, just a plain vanilla 6N3P? Does anyone else have experience with this tube? The manufacturer's website seems not to think of them too highly.


 
   


 Purchase all versions of Russian 6N3P (they're dirty cheap) and try them yourself. They are very warm and smóoth. I personally prefer crystal clear sound that's why I stay away from Russian tubes.
  JWWE396a and bendix 6385 '50 are too smooth for me too.
   
   
  Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> For me I think Jupiter would be too warm.  As it is I am looking more towards the direction of definition/incisiveness/transparency.


 
   
  I put different caps in the place of  0,22uF to decouple CS8414 chip. The clearest is Jupiter vintage tone, I tried it to replace many times (tested Mundorfs, FT3s, Wimas), but Jupiter always backs to its place. 
  I'll try CuTF in the future there, but I don't think CuTF will be improving on every place.
   
  Elna Tonerex 3300uF 35V power supply caps are my favourite too.  So cheap can sound pretty damn good


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I put different caps in the place of  0,22uF to decouple CS8414 chip. The clearest is Jupiter vintage tone, I tried it to replace many times (tested Mundorfs, FT3s, Wimas), but Jupiter always backs to its place.
> I'll try CuTF in the future there, but I don't think CuTF will be improving on every place.
> 
> Elna Tonerex 3300uF 35V power supply caps are my favourite too.  So cheap can sound pretty damn good


 
   
   
  Interesting, I didn't even know about this cap, but I just ordered one.  When I said Jupiter I was thinking of the HT beeswax caps.  I think I'm going to draw the line at spending $100-$130 to put a CuTF here, but let us know how it works out for you!  If it's a big improvement I may push that line back a little.
   
  I think the Havana already sounds like a several $k DAC with the mods I've put in so I wouldn't balk too much at spending a couple hundred more.  At least that is what I keep telling myself!


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I put different caps in the place of  0,22uF to decouple CS8414 chip. The clearest is Jupiter vintage tone, I tried it to replace many times (tested Mundorfs, FT3s, Wimas), but Jupiter always backs to its place.
> I'll try CuTF in the future there, but I don't think CuTF will be improving on every place.


 
   
  Right I was surprised how Jupiter HT are clear, quite airy. I wouldn't say they're warm in the sense bold or "tuby". I could say warm but more on a pleasant feeling with nice textures, however I listened to them very few so don't remember how they rank about spatiality, atmosphere and so on but they're very good caps. On my mind Clarity MR caps go a bit more far everywhere regarding opening (a bit more highs, very wide, incredible transparency...) but may be less musical ? My dac is taken down at now so I'll put the Jupiter HT to see. Everything's a question of compromise, but I note it's not easy to decide on what's the best setup as everytime there's new changes to make elsewhere on the dac so change the situation then.


----------



## mako44

I listened to Jupiter HT instead of Clarity Cap MR on C12 only during 1h30 : the change is "radical". Clarity MR is definitely more opened, clear and transparent and goes farer on extreme frequencies especially trebles :  with Jupiter HT they sound like shortened while Clarity MR is more sparkling on that point. With Clarity MR trebles come to titillate your ears, to break out sometimes in them like a buble of soda. With Jupiter HT listening is more "calm" and even intimist. Atmosphere is a bit less present on recordings as I expected and I'm sure some details are lost too (it's a bit smoothed), in fact Clarity MR goes always a bit farer on all these aspects to finally transcend realism during the listening.
   
  The problem is that Jupiter HT is obviously more musical . This dryness I heard sometimes has simply completely disapeard. And how silky and lovely textures are ! I forgot that but that's striking. With Jupiter voices are just... crazy. Listening to music I oftened said to myself "wow voices are so great on my setup" but jupiter still brings something more : silky textures, full body sound. It gives a warm & friendly sound : imagine a beautiful girl who comes to sing sofly in your ears, well no this is Jupiter HT. Sax are so sensual too....
   
  Well it seems obvious that Clarity MR caps are more analytical and excel in details, opening or atmospheres (realism in general) and are better than Jupiter HT on this aspects so it can be interesting to put one or two on the right place (I still have 2 on input and will keep them) but Jupiter are for me more musical and just let the music flow. They're obviously very pleasant to listen to. I wouldn't put too many however as sound is more stuffy (besides that's the reason why i didn't keep it on c12 first and was seduced by Clarity MR).
   
  So what about my dac now : starts to be really pleasant and it looks like I finally found the right balance/sound I was looking for . However it's still too closed for me and I feel a lack of air & details. I'll receive vcap cutf soon for output and i still have to put WBT nextgen connectors so may be it will help. Didn't put rcore neither because don't know how to do but seems good for that according to what I read. To be continued so...


----------



## mako44

Memo for myself : could be interesting to test 2 Jupiter HT on input and Clarity MR on C12 to see if it's more opened but still as pleasant and musical


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Interesting, I didn't even know about this cap, but I just ordered one.  When I said Jupiter I was thinking of the HT beeswax caps.  I think I'm going to draw the line at spending $100-$130 to put a CuTF here, but let us know how it works out for you!  If it's a big improvement I may push that line back a little.
> I think the Havana already sounds like a several $k DAC with the mods I've put in so I wouldn't balk too much at spending a couple hundred more.  At least that is what I keep telling myself!


 
   
  Where are the limits of it's topology? Inclined to believe that the strongest possible impact of CuTF is on the output section, becouse it is critical for Havana. But you never know...I am very, VERY curious!
  Quote: 





mako44 said:


> So what about my dac now : starts to be really pleasant and it looks like I finally found the right balance/sound I was looking for . However it's still too closed for me and I feel a lack of air & details. I'll receive vcap cutf soon for output and i still have to put WBT nextgen connectors so may be it will help. Didn't put rcore neither because don't know how to do but seems good for that according to what I read. To be continued so...


 
   
  Get ready for the great adventure with CuTF!! After hundreds of hours of burning-in, you will really feel *what you missed **before*. CuTF place there (to the output) gives life to all instruments&voices and transform the audition into something wonderful. It's incredible how much changes the sound stamp across all frequencies (I would say, decisively in the mid and low frequencies).
  I love these capacitors!


----------



## mako44

Very nice to read, I'll receive them next week, was happy with Mundorf S/G/O but they seem still better according to all your comments. Looks like we'll all finish with dacs full of Vcap cutf (output, input, c12...) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Interesting, I didn't even know about this cap, but I just ordered one.


 
   
  Are you speaking about Jupiter HT ? Because as you mentionned before I'm not sure it's what you're looking for as they definitely don't go towards definition/incisiveness & transparency. They're more relaxing, warm, soft. But very nice in that way. However I hope I will be abble to extend the extremes with next upgrades because it's too short for the moment especially on highs.
   
  It's just a thought but I don't know if Havana is the best raw material to go towards analytical sound like antelope dacs for example. I wonder if  Havana is not above all especially good to make relaxing, full body, soft/warm configs. Still with some good definition, details but not as far as pro dacs (studio dacs). Everytime I tried something more precise and analytical (jw 2c51 ericsson, clarity cap mr) on havana I was not completely happy especially with highs. And the only really good (best ?) tube on havana, if you want a very high level of quality, looks like to be the bendix 6385 which is not especially very precise or opened (it is but not on the analytical way).


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Are you speaking about Jupiter HT ? Because as you mentionned before I'm not sure it's what you're looking for as they definitely don't go towards definition/incisiveness & transparency. They're more relaxing, warm, soft. But very nice in that way. However I hope I will be abble to extend the extremes with next upgrades because it's too short for the moment especially on highs.
> 
> It's just a thought but I don't know if Havana is the best raw material to go towards analytical sound like antelope dacs for example. I wonder if  Havana is not above all especially good to make relaxing, full body, soft/warm configs. Still with some good definition, details but not as far as pro dacs (studio dacs). Everytime I tried something more precise and analytical (jw 2c51 ericsson, clarity cap mr) on havana I was not completely happy especially with highs. And the only really good (best ?) tube on havana, if you want a very high level of quality, looks like to be the bendix 6385 which is not especially very precise or opened (it is but not on the analytical way).


 
   
  Nope, what Robert is using and what I was referring to is the Jupiter Vintage Tone cap, not the HT Beeswax.
   
http://jupitercondenser.com/vintage-tone-yellow-capacitors.html
   
  You are correct that if you're looking for analytical, extremely resolving sound then Havana is not your DAC.  I have owned this DAC the longest of any piece of gear I have and keep coming back to it for its tone, texture, and musicality.  My taste is definitely on the warm side -- tube DAC, preamp, power amps with Tannoy dual concentric speakers.  That said, I do enjoy and appreciate a high degree of clarity, transparency, openness, detail, etc. and the Havana is relatively lacking in these parameters so I'm trying to tip the balance in that direction.
   
  Last night I installed the WBT-0210 Ag Ms RCA connectors.  Going in somewhat skeptical I was surprised to find that transparency, image/soundstage precision, and fine details were improved significantly with a cooler, but not *bright* sound.  Detail and tonal accuracy of treble are notably better, percussion in particular, especially cymbals.  Interestingly the presentation was also pushed back and is more recessed rather than up front now... perhaps a little too much on vocals.  Overall it is a welcome change, though, as it better captures large scale music (especially orchestral) with the music hall ambiance.  Of course, lots of components yet to burn in.
   
  Now I don't know which direction to head with the C12 cap.  I already have Jupiter Vintage Tone on the way and am thinking of Jupiter HT or Mudorf SIO.  Maybe even SGIO but if I'm going to spend that much I might just double down and get the CuTF.  I will sit on this until after the Auricaps and Technics chips are installed and everything burns in.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Now I don't know which direction to head with the C12 cap.  I already have Jupiter Vintage Tone on the way and am thinking of Jupiter HT or Mudorf SIO.  Maybe even SGIO but if I'm going to spend that much I might just double down and get the CuTF.  I will sit on this until after the Auricaps and Technics chips are installed and everything burns in.


 
   
  I'm also still looking for C12 replacement, the DAC strongly reacts to its change, the best synegry I obtain with Jupiter vintage vone but this is not my last move, this cap is very cheap, its worth testing, you can easily tame the DAC putting there some teflons like Russian FT3 for example (very nice experience), Mundorf SGIO gives technical sound, (I avoid that kind of presentation).
  I wonder what would happen when CuTF was there . I'm gonna find out.
   
  Cheers, Robert


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Last night I installed the WBT-0210 Ag Ms RCA connectors.  Going in somewhat skeptical I was surprised to find that transparency, image/soundstage precision, and fine details were improved significantly with a cooler, but not *bright* sound.  Detail and tonal accuracy of treble are notably better, percussion in particular, especially cymbals.  Interestingly the presentation was also pushed back and is more recessed rather than up front now... perhaps a little too much on vocals.  Overall it is a welcome change, though, as it better captures large scale music (especially orchestral) with the music hall ambiance.  Of course, lots of components yet to burn in.


 
   
  @kimchee411,
  It was a shame as Havana not benefit from all this. WBT-0210 Ag Ms are probably the best. I was pleasantly surprised also, to see what sensitive reacts Havana to these conectors. It gives a superior layering, certainly.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Everytime I tried something more precise and analytical (jw 2c51 ericsson, clarity cap mr) on havana I was not completely happy especially with highs. And the only really good (best ?) tube on havana, if you want a very high level of quality, looks like to be the bendix 6385 which is not especially very precise or opened (it is but not on the analytical way).


 
   
  You will definitely change your mind about Bendix when you hear 1964's production.  Perfect clearance and precision *which you will not get with other tubes.* - no way !


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You will definitely change your mind about Bendix when you hear 1964's production.  Perfect clearance and precision *which you will not get with other tubes.* - no way !


 

 A few days ago I took out the Bendix (from 1964') and I tried to see how it sounds Western Electric (JW)396A. Bendix was better when I bought it after about one half a year ago, and obvious now. The sound is more refined with Bendix..


----------



## robeeert1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-6385-tube-/130781095796?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e73292774
   
  Ask the seller if it is 1964 or 1968 tube, if so, take it, it seems to be a good final price. These are very rare..
   
  Why is the year of production so important?
   
  Two of my loaner Bendix 6385 (1964 and 1956) have been sent to my 10 friends (Havana's owners) or so all over the world last and this year just to compare them.
*For your curiocity no-one pointed 1956 as better. *
  Some of them are members of this forum...
   
*Tournée is over now.*
   
  1954,1956,1957,1959 were advertised as RTMA -  they all sound the same,
  1964, 1968 - sound the same (but quite different than the ones from fifties)


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> A few days ago I took out the Bendix (from 1964') and I tried to see how it sounds Western Electric (JW)396A. Bendix was better when I bought it after about one half a year ago, and obvious now. The sound is more refined with Bendix..


 
   
  Well you even can't compare them together, JW 396a (at least the one I own)  is a good tube but just sounds like a first draft of bendix 6385. I never loved it that much in fact i find it too "tuby" : bold, lack of air, closed. I also own a 6386 ge 5 star but even if it's a bit different it's not better than jw 396a (too closed too). Bendix 6385 is a first class tube much more clean and airy according to me
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You will definitely change your mind about Bendix when you hear 1964's production.  Perfect clearance and precision *which you will not get with other tubes.* - no way !


 
   
  I know I agree with you I love Bendix 6385, it's very nice to hear, and can't go back to another one now. I just meant that some other tubes are more analytical & opened than Bendix for example Ericsson 2c51 which is extremely opened and transparent. I liked it more than JW 396a or 6386 because of its openess (stock havana needs to be more opened) but I listened to it again yesterday and it sounds too harsh and "stiffness" after changes we made on the dac. Bendix 6385 is undoubtly more balanced and pleasant (at least on havana).


----------



## robeeert1

Makko, I owned several Ericssons 2C51 and even I owned very rare ones with gold pins, these are very good especially gold pin version. In my opinion these tubes are not more transparent than bendix 6385 1964, 
  I bet you have Bendix 6385 from fifties, it is rather on warm side, for me this tube is muddy.
  Do know what are the date codes of your Bendix 6385?
  The most important thing in our hobby is satisfaction with the sound quality and music.
  I'm not going to argue which tube is more transparent and opened any more.
   
  You will see plenty of opening space when you install CuFT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers Robert


----------



## mako44

.


----------



## mako44

I don't remember the date of my 6385 but I love it and prefer it to jw 2c51 anyway. For I changed my amp and speakers at the beginning of the year something kept on disturbing me when listening to havana and I couldn't find the right balance, but I think I did now thanks to Bendix 6385 and by switching Clarity MR with Jupiter HT on C12. I love the sound of my hifi system now.
   
  I had the opportunity to listen to the atoll dac 100 (500 euros) yesterdays, well... the kind of situation where you can hear how huge the difference is between entry level dacs and tweaked havana .
   
  And  where you confirm how much havana sounds natural. On Atoll dac I had the impression to listen to a synthetizer with presets erk... I must say it was also with speakers and an amp (davis acoustics matisse hd and atoll in 100se) less good as mines but anyway i've been surprised on how it sounded like a computer... And no air, horrible basses, bad precision. Smooth feeling, spatialization, agreable trebles and more or less correct medium were the good points. Stock havana works much better from memories.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I had the impression to listen to a synthetizer with presets erk...


 
   
  That is *EXACTLY* my thoughts on so many DACs that I've heard. Good description..


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> As I told you, they need burning in like fish need water
> I adore the quality with CuTF.


 
   
  Hi,
  Because we are interested in all about this topic, I found here very interesting remarks:
  (I checked on the write up to 300>>400 hours of CuTF burning-in and I found sound characteristics described here).
   
  quote:
   
  "<<Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark (25 days). It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours (50 days). You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon. During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages.
   
  During the initial 150 hours (6 days) , you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon. What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours (6 days), the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark (8-10 days). This is where they start to become more 'listenable'  but you are still only half way there.  The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

 Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark (12 days), things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours (12-16 days). You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

 One you reach the 400 hour mark (16 days), you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.>>"


----------



## mako44

This vcap cutf is a real bottle of wine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I have a question : sound quality fluctuates depending on the time spent but is it better than, let's say, Mundorf S/G from the beginning and even during worst stages or can it become worse sometimes ?


----------



## mako44

"_What you will notice is that one day your system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken_" : it has nothing to do with vcaps but I often note that for my myself, I mean curiously depending of the days or moment i listen to music I may not appreciate it the same as before. For example yesterday I found the sound incredible and this evening a bit less tasty. I spoke about that to a friend and he told me it can be explained by electric current which is not the same depending on hour, by tiredness, or even your mood. Is it the same for you too ?


----------



## kimchee411

loserica, how did you get the 0.1uF Auricap leads through the holes?  I am having a hell of a time because the stranded leads are too thick and give way from little pressure.


----------



## mako44

You can't put them like this you need to extend wires with thinner ones or enlarge holes with dremel


----------



## kimchee411

Thanks for clarifying -- I ended up just cutting off some strands (actually a lot) to make the total gauge smaller.  It was a pain in the ass and doesn't look so pretty but it got the job done.
   
  In addition to the Auricaps I also switched out the 0.22 Clarity Cap ESA for Jupiter Vintage Tone and tried removing C5 again.  Initial impression is smoother (most apparent change), sweeter, more micro detail, and better micro dynamics, especially attack, and a bit snappier leading edge.  I still think I prefer C5 in as I think I lost some body like the last time I removed it, but I'll let the new parts burn in some before I make a call on that.
   
  Added vintage Japanese K grade I got from Robert yesterday and that provided a somewhat subtle yet significant improvement that brought more distinct timbres, a touch more micro detail, and more effortless sense of PRaT -- overall more musicality, which is always a big +.


----------



## tweaker829

Mink70, One way to tone down glare and brightness is to use ferrite cores on interconnect and PS wires. Another way is to use x or y type caps across the ac line. I agree with another that the WE 396a has poor dynamics. Mass violins sound perhaps the best on this tube but it is otherwise  thin sounding. The Jan 5670 is a very ballanced tube. I am using the JG5670 and believe it is superior to the Jan but I havn't listened to them side by side yet. The Raytheon 5670 Black plate is brighter than the JG5670 and the sylvania is an other thin and allitle bright sounding tube. The 1950's Tungsol 2c51 is considered to be warm and full sounding by some. You say it's brighter than the GE Jan5670??  I have a pair of WE396a (not JW), russian 63n . I would like to hear theTungsols if they are the black plate d getter type. Let me know if you want to  maybe share loaning of tubes... Tweaker


----------



## mink70

Hi tweaker—
   
  Yeah, I'd be game. 
   
  By Jan GE 5670 you mean the stock tube, right? And what's a JG5670? 
   
  I found that while the stock tube is warmer, the Western JW 2C51 I have sounds bigger and juicier, if you know what I mean, with better dynamics and color and bass. But it also sounds edgier, with a more strident treble. I also have a GE 5670 that has similar plates to the stock tube, but and extra mica element and a square getter instead of a round one. Testing it now, along with the Tung-Sol.
   
  Will post what I discover.
   
  Alex
   
  Quote: 





tweaker829 said:


> Mink70, One way to tone down glare and brightness is to use ferrite cores on interconnect and PS wires. Another way is to use x or y type caps across the ac line. I agree with another that the WE 396a has poor dynamics. Mass violins sound perhaps the best on this tube but it is otherwise  thin sounding. The Jan 5670 is a very ballanced tube. I am using the JG5670 and believe it is superior to the Jan but I havn't listened to them side by side yet. The Raytheon 5670 Black plate is brighter than the JG5670 and the sylvania is an other thin and allitle bright sounding tube. The 1950's Tungsol 2c51 is considered to be warm and full sounding by some. You say it's brighter than the GE Jan5670??  I have a pair of WE396a (not JW), russian 63n . I would like to hear theTungsols if they are the black plate d getter type. Let me know if you want to  maybe share loaning of tubes... Tweaker


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Also, I tried removing C5 and while it did liven things up a bit, images lost an appreciable amount of depth and weight so I put it back.  I am using this in a speaker set up so it is more important to me than through cans.  It does tell me that the 0.1uF polys make a noticeable difference so I may consider the Auricap XO after everything else is done and settled in.


 
  I was back to C5 this evening, in fact the images lose some depth and body when the cap is out. Finally the cap backs to its place.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I was back to C5 this evening, in fact the images lose some depth and body when the cap is out. Finally the cap backs to its place.


 
   
  Yeah, it didn't take me long to know that something was definitely missing and put back in the C5.  I wish there was a way to reap the advantages of when it is in and out.  I think the only solution is to try different caps at that position.  And it gets me thinking that every cap has a noticeable impact on the sound, so on my next Havana I may just put CuTF in place of ALL poly caps!
   
  Anybody try Duelund VSF in this DAC or in general?  I am interested in how they compare to CuTF.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Yeah, it didn't take me long to know that something was definitely missing and put back in the C5.  I wish there was a way to reap the advantages of when it is in and out.  I think the only solution is to try different caps at that position.  And it gets me thinking that every cap has a noticeable impact on the sound, so on my next Havana I may just put CuTF in place of ALL poly caps!
> 
> Anybody try Duelund VSF in this DAC or in general?  I am interested in how they compare to CuTF.


 
   
  I tried many caps on that position, the result was always unsatisfactory, that's why I decided to remove it, but it was at the beginning, almost no upgraded parts in the DAC.
  Do you really  think CuTF in every place should increase the quality to maximum? I do not think so, but try and let us know.
   
  If you want to run extreme upgrade do not use Elna but look for Black Gate caps, FK, F, N.


----------



## robeeert1

Next weekend I'm gonna replace silver mica with CuTF .01uF (the input and output caps are in the circuit, their quality is important)
   
  I think there is no need for further foil caps replacement with CuTF, but who knows.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> I tried many caps on that position, the result was always unsatisfactory, that's why I decided to remove it, but it was at the beginning, almost no upgraded parts in the DAC.
> Do you really  think CuTF in every place should increase the quality to maximum? I do not think so, but try and let us know.
> 
> If you want to run extreme upgrade do not use Elna but look for Black Gate caps, FK, F, N.


 
   
  I am beginning to think every cap makes a difference.  You would think C5 is insignificant because it's not in the signal path, right?  And yet there is a stark contrast from when it is in place and when it is removed.  Everybody here who mods this thing hears it.  And if I'm going to put in an upgraded cap, I can't think of a better one than CuTF.  I don't recognize any deficiencies in its sound, meaning too much CuTF would sound too bright or too soft or too clinical, but I don't know, maybe there is such a thing as too much CuTF.  I have read many good things about Duelund VSF, and one direct comparison with CuTF stating that it plays in the same league, but offers a lighter, more delicate touch to the vivid presentation of the VCap, which could be a good attribute to add to my DAC at this point.  What other caps are on the same level?
   
  The price of some higher value Black Gates these days can approach that of teflon VCaps and considering the number of electrolytics there are the overall cost would probably equal or exceed that of replacing all the other foil caps with CuTF.  Some values can also be hard to find and age of the stock is a concern.  Is the step from Elna to BG as big as, say, Jupiter HT to CuTF?  That is, is the value for money as great?  Do electrolytics generally influence the sound more than foil caps in this design or in general?  I will have to try replacing some Elnas with BG NX to see for myself.
   
  BTW this the great thing about this thread.  That somebody tries something new, learns from it, and shares with the community.  Then others try and offer their experiences so we all gain a better understanding or what works and what doesn't.  We can theorize all we want about what would happen (and there are far too many pages wasted in the bickering of this type on audio boards), but the proof is in the pudding.  So, big thanks to all who have contributed, especially Robert.  I hope I can help out myself because I feel I have gained a tremendous amount from the input of others.  At this point I have little to offer in terms of specifics because I just kind of dove in and threw everything at my DAC at once, but as time passes and I tinker with this and that I will be sure to share my impressions.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> The price of some higher value Black Gates these days can approach that of teflon VCaps and considering the number of electrolytics there are the overall cost would probably equal or exceed that of replacing all the other foil caps with CuTF.  Some values can also be hard to find and age of the stock is a concern.  Is the step from Elna to BG as big as, say, Jupiter HT to CuTF?  That is, is the value for money as great?  Do electrolytics generally influence the sound more than foil caps in this design or in general?  I will have to try replacing some Elnas with BG NX to see for myself.


 
   
  Electrolitic caps influence the sound I'd say more than foils. BG lower values like we have in Havana are not very expensive, I replaced 16pcs of Nichicons with BG, the most expensive were the red ones N-series,
  the total cost of a set of BG FK,F,N for Havana is around $350-$400.
  You are asking me if they are better than Elna silmic II. Yes, BGs are better caps, the differences are not huge but significant.
  It's like with chips, Malaysian K are very good sounding but Japanese K are better, right?
   
  Remember every cap makes a difference, so you have to set up the sound characteristic due to your presonal preferences.


----------



## mako44

I put C5 back to see and that's very true I hear a much better depth and wider image. Also a bit more accuracy (better position of instruments in space). But it's especially true on classical music, music's more involved and enjoyable, more realistic. However, on my system and in its current stage (no rcore, no cutf..), on the other music styles I tried (pop, rock, jazz, electro...) this difference is less marked, at least what you loose on the other side in openess (air, details, shades...) makes me prefer with C5, even if there's a bit less body. So at the moment I'd say I prefer with C5 to listen to classical music because depth and the wide image improves this music but with C5 the rest of the time.
   
  I'll try again when my dac will be more opened. I must say that the cap I put back on C5 is a stock one because of lack of room in the dac so result must be different with a better cap.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I put C5 back to see and that's very true I hear a much better depth and wider image. Also a bit more accuracy (better position of instruments in space). But it's especially true on classical music, music's more involved and enjoyable, more realistic.


 
   
  ...and better texture!


----------



## kimchee411

If anybody is planning to get the 0.47 CuTF output coupling caps let me know.  I have an extra pair I am saving for a second Havana but I think I want to try Duelund CAST Cu instead if somebody will take these V-Caps off my hands.  I can offer a small but meaningful discount off retail.


----------



## mako44

Vcap cutf installed for 15 mns (output), first impressions. Compared to Mundorf Silver/gold/oil I don't hear many differences in fact (what is quite surprising because s/g/o are burnt in for a long time). The global tonality is similar. The only real change is that bass are more controlled, it's a big weak of havana and I hear a nice improvement.
   
  The rest is only impressions and can be placebo effect : may be trebles are slightly clearer and the sound very slightly fuller but I wouldn't stake my life on it. On last track of Summer - 4 seasons of Vivaldi (Carmignola version) in particular, which is a full ensemble and very fast track I have the impression the whole ensemble is better kept. More precise, not in the sense instruments are at their right place, but that the dac deals better with informations he receives (if you understand what I mean). This track can be a mess when not well controlled and i have the impression it's slightly better.
   
  In fact for the moment I can't really highlight something special, except bass, but i have the slight impression the whole ensemble is a bit more homogeneous, better kept, precise. All this give a slight more natural sound. I must let it burn in now.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Vcap cutf installed for 15 mns (output), first impressions. Compared to Mundorf Silver/gold/oil I don't hear many differences in fact (what is quite surprising because s/g/o are burnt in for a long time). The global tonality is similar. The only real change is that bass are more controlled, it's a big weak of havana and I hear a nice improvement.
> 
> The rest is only impressions and can be placebo effect : may be trebles are slightly clearer and the sound very slightly fuller but I wouldn't stake my life on it. On last track of Summer - 4 seasons of Vivaldi (Carmignola version) in particular, which is a full ensemble and very fast track I have the impression the whole ensemble is better kept. More precise, not in the sense instruments are at their right place, but that the dac deals better with informations he receives (if you understand what I mean). This track can be a mess when not well controlled and i have the impression it's slightly better.
> 
> In fact for the moment I can't really highlight something special, except bass, but i have the slight impression the whole ensemble is a bit more homogeneous, better kept, precise. All this give a slight more natural sound. I must let it burn in now.


 
   
  CuTF will sound different after 250 - 300 hours and they will reach their full sound potential after 400-600 hours! The changes that occur after about 400 hours of burn are incredible. You will see..
  Medium frequencies expressed on human voices are really beautiful and absolutely reliable in terms of realism & coherence (for me this means the feeling of disappearance headphones on my head!). Bass is already controlled and the higher frequencies extended and very refined. From this moment I feel like I want to listen to music without stopping.


----------



## mako44

Vcap cutf are burnt in for 30 hours or so but they're already fantastic I understand why you love them. It's another dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Expensive but they worth their price, with them I listen to music and not a system anymore (well I tend to). Mundorf s/g/o sound very digital compared to them. Very nice silky textures, refinment, naturalness, openess, smooth rendering, definition. What a pleasure to hear tight bass at least. And this very enjoyable black background too.
   
  I still hear some limits and a slight veil on sound but it can also come from my amp now. My note : 15/10...


----------



## kimchee411

I think CuTF sound pretty damn good out of the box, but now that mine are pretty much fully burned in I gotta say it gets way better!  The end result is very refined and truly exquisite.  You will see...


----------



## mako44

I think I'm going to order a rcore and find somone to install it. Do you remember what it provides to the sound and if he also has defaults (brings bad things compared to stock one) ?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I think CuTF sound pretty damn good out of the box, but now that mine are pretty much fully burned in I gotta say it gets way better!  The end result is very refined and truly exquisite.  You will see...


 

 CuTF rules!


----------



## mako44

Simply magical... I must say I also changed stock 0.1uf caps (nichikon i think) by Auricap Xo in the same time but their impact on sound must be very minor compared to cutf. For those who would be interested they're easy to install but just a bit large so I put them slightly upper than stock caps. Not ideal but as original auricap are discontinued now... No need to enlarge holes or solder thinner wires.
   
  I put back C5 cap as cutf bring a lot of openess and ordered Rcore this evening, it will be next step. It's useless to say that the Euphya Junction Dac I tested this summer, and which is objectively very good musically, is far far behind Havana regarding all aspects.


----------



## kimchee411

I have a question for you guys.  I want to try the Duelund CAST Cu caps 0.47uF for output coupling to compare to CuTF, but these have radial leads so I would have to lay them sideways as if they have axial leads and bend one of the leads back along the body of the cap, so one lead would be considerably longer than the other.  Is there anything wrong with doing this?  I would insulate them to avoid a short, of course.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I have a question for you guys.  I want to try the Duelund CAST Cu caps 0.47uF for output coupling to compare to CuTF, but these have radial leads so I would have to lay them sideways as if they have axial leads and bend one of the leads back along the body of the cap, so one lead would be considerably longer than the other.  Is there anything wrong with doing this?  I would insulate them to avoid a short, of course.


 
   


 Have you checked the dimensions?, Havana is compact, will they fit? Aswering to your question - leads should be as short as possible, but they are very good quality I suppose, this will not influence the sound when one is longer. Let us know the results, please.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I have a question for you guys.  I want to try the Duelund CAST Cu caps 0.47uF for output coupling to compare to CuTF, but these have radial leads so I would have to lay them sideways as if they have axial leads and bend one of the leads back along the body of the cap, so one lead would be considerably longer than the other.  Is there anything wrong with doing this?  I would insulate them to avoid a short, of course.


 
  Sounds awesome!  Let us know how it sounds!  From me looking online, the only cap that some people say is better than vcap CuTF is Duelund cast cu, so I'm very interested to see if that's true in this case.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Have you checked the dimensions?, Havana is compact, will they fit? Aswering to your question - leads should be as short as possible, but they are very good quality I suppose, this will not influence the sound when one is longer. Let us know the results, please.


 
   
  Should fit.  They are a little longer, but a little skinnier as well.  May have to push aside a cap or two.
   
  CuTF: 1.4" dia x 2.25" len
  CAST: 1.33" dia x 2.48" len
   
  I can only do this if I can sell my extra CuTF at a minimal loss.  Maybe I jumped the gun a little on that purchase


----------



## mako44

Well my previous order of Rcore has been canceled because not in stock, can you confirm this one is the good one (there are many references i don't want to order the wrong one :
   
*30W R-Core Transformer for amp 9V*2 15V*2 230V/115v (220V/110V) DUAL 9V,DUAL 15V*
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30W-R-Core-Transformer-amp-9V-2-15V-2-230V-115v-220V-110V-DUAL-9V-DUAL-15V-/221025279682?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D3272064305374728756%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D320680108067%26


----------



## robeeert1

Mako44,
  The transformer seems to be appropriate for the DAC.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Well my previous order of Rcore has been canceled because not in stock, can you confirm this one is the good one (there are many references i don't want to order the wrong one :
> 
> *30W R-Core Transformer for amp 9V*2 15V*2 230V/115v (220V/110V) DUAL 9V,DUAL 15V*
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30W-R-Core-Transformer-amp-9V-2-15V-2-230V-115v-220V-110V-DUAL-9V-DUAL-15V-/221025279682?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D3272064305374728756%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D320680108067%26


 
   
  That looks right to me.  Do you need 230V or 115V?  I have an extra one that is 230V only.  I bought it by mistake because the picture had a 230V+115V.  PM me if this is the one you need and I'll give you a deal.
   
  A note on installation: I noticed in photos or loserica and robert's units that the output wiring was 0V-(hot)-(hot)-0V in left to right order of the wires coming out of the transformer so I tried and tested this configuration first and sure enough that was it for me too.  You might want to try that first.  TEST BEFORE CONNECTING TO YOUR DAC!  Are you pretty clear on the procedure otherwise?


----------



## mako44

Thanks for your confirmation Robert. Sorry kimchee but I already have ordered it yersterday morning. Try to put an ad on head-fi or an electronics forum i'm sure it would interest someone else who do diy tweaks.


----------



## kimchee411

Guys, I installed the Duelund CAST PIO Cu output caps last night and without going into too much detail yet I will say I think I like them better than V-Cap CuTF!  The CuTF sound more vivid and super saturated by comparison whereas the CAST are smooooooth but every bit as detailed, possibly a tiny bit more.  Imaging is so rock solid with so much depth and definition all all the way back through the sound stage.  It's kind of like the CuTF are like an HDTV set up in an a store display where the picture is really bold and pretty, but the CAST are like a properly calibrated set that's natural and easy on the eyes (ears in this case).  Not to say the CAST produce a subdued sound -- not at all.  It's hard to explain.  If you've ever heard the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 vs. Series 1 it is kind of the same difference in sound to my ear.
   
  I will let them burn in more and report back.  Still like the CuTF very much and luckily I will get to enjoy both sets of caps with a second Havana on the way.


----------



## niamex

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I will let them burn in more and report back.  Still like the CuTF very much and luckily I will get to enjoy both sets of caps with a second Havana on the way.


 
  We are expecting your judgment after some burning time, What capacitance you installed - 0.47 ?
  Rgds


----------



## kimchee411

Yeah, 0.47.  Just BARELY fit EXACTLY.  I had to install a new pair of 100/25 + 47/25 electrolytics with longer leads to push them off to the side.  I couldn't even put 1 layer of ripwrap around even 1 cap to tie the long radial lead to the body.  Will post photos later.  WHEW!


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Guys, I installed the Duelund CAST PIO Cu output caps last night and without going into too much detail yet I will say I think I like them better than V-Cap CuTF!  The CuTF sound more vivid and super saturated by comparison whereas the CAST are smooooooth but every bit as detailed, possibly a tiny bit more.  Imaging is so rock solid with so much depth and definition all all the way back through the sound stage.  It's kind of like the CuTF are like an HDTV set up in an a store display where the picture is really bold and pretty, but the CAST are like a properly calibrated set that's natural and easy on the eyes (ears in this case).  Not to say the CAST produce a subdued sound -- not at all.  It's hard to explain.  If you've ever heard the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 vs. Series 1 it is kind of the same difference in sound to my ear.
> 
> I will let them burn in more and report back.  Still like the CuTF very much and luckily I will get to enjoy both sets of caps with a second Havana on the way.


 
   
  I think I would have liked some more Cast PIO, imagining the sound..BUT, musicality is the most important thing into a sound system and I think we can talk about musicality without reserve in both case. 
  Thank you for impressions.
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Electrolitic caps influence the sound I'd say more than foils. BG lower values like we have in Havana are not very expensive, I replaced 16pcs of Nichicons with BG, the most expensive were the red ones N-series,
> the total cost of a set of BG FK,F,N for Havana is around $350-$400.
> You are asking me if they are better than Elna silmic II. Yes, BGs are better caps, the differences are not huge but significant.
> It's like with chips, Malaysian K are very good sounding but Japanese K are better, right?
> ...


 
   
  I mounted a week ago two 47uf/50V Black Gate Non-polars and I bought another one  (only one because they are extremely difficult to find out,..) and I'm extremely happy with the result! 
  These capacitors giving a more natural sound, a texture that I hadn't another chance to taste with Elna Silmic-l. So, to put in value the full potential of CuTF (or Cast PIO), you needed performing electrolytic caps..
  I spent about two dollars/for a piece (Elna 47uf/25V), so they are very cheap compared to other components. Considering that BG "FK" are hard to find and quite expensive, I opted for the "F" series, so I will replace about 10-12 Elna Silmic capacitors.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Guys, I installed the Duelund CAST PIO Cu output caps last night and without going into too much detail yet I will say I think I like them better than V-Cap CuTF!  The CuTF sound more vivid and super saturated by comparison whereas the CAST are smooooooth but every bit as detailed, possibly a tiny bit more.  Imaging is so rock solid with so much depth and definition all all the way back through the sound stage.  It's kind of like the CuTF are like an HDTV set up in an a store display where the picture is really bold and pretty, but the CAST are like a properly calibrated set that's natural and easy on the eyes (ears in this case).  Not to say the CAST produce a subdued sound -- not at all.  It's hard to explain.  If you've ever heard the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 vs. Series 1 it is kind of the same difference in sound to my ear.
> 
> I will let them burn in more and report back.  Still like the CuTF very much and luckily I will get to enjoy both sets of caps with a second Havana on the way.


 

 Hi,Am i wright in thinking Cu means copper foil ? I was looking for something else to try i have been using Jupiter HT Round bees wax which i am happy with but always int-rested to see the next step.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Hi,Am i wright in thinking Cu means copper foil ? I was looking for something else to try i have been using Jupiter HT Round bees wax which i am happy with but always int-rested to see the next step.


 
   
  Yup.
   
  CuTF = Copper Teflon Foil
   
  PIO Cu = Paper in Oil Copper


----------



## kimchee411

Well, my previous comments regarding Duelund CAST Cu still stand -- they are no doubt better than CuTF in my opinion.  Again, timbre is so accurate and so natural sounding it's scary.  CuTF have a more juicy, vivid sound, but CAST are more delicate and refined.  I found the same thing when I replaced CuTF with CAST in my Almarro A205A MkII.  I still think CuTF are fantastic sounding caps, but if you are a Havana lover I have little doubt you will easily prefer Duelund.
   
  My opinion, in general: CAST PIO-Cu > V-Cap CuTF >> ClarityCap MR... and the rest.

 I'm just going to pretend Duelund CAST Ag do not exist!  Also Duelund VSF makes no sense when smaller values cost more than CAST.


----------



## robeeert1

Kimchee411,
   
  When I use  Vcaps CuTF I can hear the highest resolution I have heard so far,  I can hear details, that I could't hear with other caps (best Mundorfs SGiO, Jensens copper foil and ther rest), Vcpas CuTF are just extremely opened, nobody can understand what I'm talking about without prior listening to them.
_"Violins sound like violins, flutes sound like flutes"_. Timbre and image are really breathtaking.
   
   
*How do the Duelunds PIO Cu compare with Vcaps CuTF with terms of transparency and resolution?*
   
  Vcaps are also very delicate, refined and very natural sounding  in my system.


----------



## kimchee411

The Duelunds give up nothing to the CuTF in terms of transparency and resolution and dare I say even do a little better.
   
  Robert, trust me, I know how you feel.  I didn't think it could get any better than CuTF myself... but curiosity got the best of me.  If you search the web you will see a couple people who have experience with both caps.  I have yet to read a report of anybody preferring CuTF, or any cap, to Duelund CAST.  Don't let "PIO" fool you -- there is nothing smoothed out about these caps.
   
  That said, if you prefer a super pristine and somewhat sparkly presentation (without being bright or overly etched), you may prefer the CuTF.  But if you want the most organic and honest sound, I think CAST is the winner.


----------



## mshoratiu

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> When I use  Vcaps CuTF I can hear the highest resolution I have heard so far,  I can hear details, that I could't hear with other caps (best Mundorfs SGiO, Jensens copper foil and ther rest), Vcpas CuTF are just extremely opened, nobody can understand what I'm talking about without prior listening to them.
> _"Violins sound like violins, flutes sound like flutes"_. Timbre and image are really breathtaking.
> 
> Vcaps are also very delicate, refined and very natural sounding  in my system.


 
   
  I am so happy with V-Cap CuTF! After about 500-600 hours of burning-in, I can say:  they sound absolutely beautiful. Stax's sound is definitely more ennobled by CuTF, and if we add some Black Gate, it is an audiophile delight. The sound texture is refined, but also has naturalness and credibility throughout the frequency spectrum. YES! Timbre and image are really breathtaking! Amazing how much information reveal CuTF, differences from mediocre capacitors are huge...
  I imagine the sound of Duelund and I'm sure I would love more than CuTF from those discussed. BUT, I remember what I said before: I am so happy with CuTF, so satisfied! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Amazing in what can transform Havana, with these upgrades.
   
  PS: I'm back with impressions after I will mount another two BG non-polars (47uf/50V) in the chips area and change all Elna Silmic-I & Cerafine capacitors (with BG F & FK series).


----------



## kimchee411

If you have CuTF and are happy with them (and I'm sure anyone who has them is VERY happy), then I am not going to say you've got to try the Duelunds, but if you have been thinking about adding CuTF output caps I urge you  to go with Duelund CAST Cu instead.  The 0.47 uF values from Parts Connexion even cost a bit less than the CuTF... and if you are not happy I will gladly trade you for the CuTF in my second Havana.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Last night I replaced the CuTF bypass caps in my Tannoy Turnberry SE high frequency crossover with CAST Cu and again I have gotten more realistic, refined sound with even more inner details.  The subtleties in the music that these caps brings out is unparalleled.  When listening to Rilo Kiley's "More Adventurous" -- an album I listen to a lot -- I noticed certain emphases that the singer puts at the beginning of some words for the first time and then my wife, who usually prefers to listen to Pandora through her laptop speakers over my hifi systems, started mocking the singer in the same way.  Today I watched Nirvana's MTV Unplugged performance and was just floored at how real every instrument sounded and how the ambiance of the room was captured.
   
  Anybody know of a good source for reasonably priced BG F/FK and N/NX?  As much as I would love to try some, I am not paying $50+ for one electrolytic cap from a Chinese eBay seller.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Anybody know of a good source for reasonably priced BG F/FK and N/NX?  As much as I would love to try some, I am not paying $50+ for one electrolytic cap from a Chinese eBay seller.


 
   
  Yes, you're write. 50$ for a piece is excessively! But, I searched desperately four pieces of BG Non-polars, regardless of price and luckily I found them. The problem is that both, N and the FK series are very hard to find and if you find them on e-bay (I don't know other sources),.. are still expensive. I bought two capacitors BG N series 47uf/50V and one FK series 2.200uF/35V from Canada, and another two non-polars from Russia. I understand that they are the best on the digital section near the tube&chips. I am very curious to see what changes It make in sound all BG capacitors from Elna Silmic&Cerafine. I will find in about a week or two.
   
  On: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/cerafines.html
  I found this:
  " Which capacitor to use is difficult to determine without actually trying. It depends on too many factors. To hear the potential of a certain part, it's often nessecary to change other parts too. Experimenting with different combinations is a more solid way to lift a design to a higher level. In principle the original music signal has to be preserved as much as possible, but it's difficult to tell which parts do. For analysing a music signal (harmonic structures changing in time), our ears are still the most useful instrument. But we're all calibrated differently. To some a SILMIC adds color and warmth and a Black Gate FK sounds neutral. To others a SILMIC sounds neutral because it exactly reproduces natural colors and warmth from the recording, a Black Gate FK sounds more 'hifi' to them, making the signal more pulsed, peaky (giving attack) and too clean (filtering out natural timbres).
  Often a combination of different (high quality) capacitors in the right places gives the best result. Best thing is to try yourself and trust your ears. Still, we want to mention some general characteristics as a rough guideline (of course these are our personal, biased, subjective experiences). These characters apply for capacitors used either in the signal path or in the power supply (for digital different rules apply, but there are simularities as well). Lower voltage versions of a capacitor can offer more refinement (it's faster, gives more presence towards the mid-highs).
  The _SILMIC II_ is best for reproducing different timbres, natural colors and warmth in a recording. It offers most presence in the low-mid range with lots of texture (tangible). Bass is round and warm, the mid and highrange are very refined, 'silky', quiet, but with lots of openess (more open than CERAFINE, less open than Black Gate FK).
  The _CERAFINE_ is also very good for reproducing different timbres, natural colors, but has a more direct sound than SILMIC (less direct than Black Gate FK). Bass is round and warm, the midrange has most presence and the high range is lively.
  The _Black Gate FK_ has the most open and clean sound, with the main presence in the high range. It sounds thinner, offers somewhat less texture and timbre. It offers most pulse, attack in both the low, mid and high ranges".
  
  I think that the changing of electrolytic caps with Black Gate, and possibly Duelund CAST-PIO Cu instead CuTF, it would be the last step to Havana. We passed this critical point beyond which any change is very expensive and no longer justified intro this DAC!


----------



## robeeert1

Black Gates "FK" are really the best electrolitics I have tried in Havana. I know they are hard to find and extremely expensive. I know some values reach $50/pc. Do you think they are not worth the price? So what for do we use Vcaps or Duelunds which cost a lot of  money, too?
  Black Gates improve the sound considerably compared with any Elna.  I think there is no use trying Duelunds or Vcaps without having Black Gates on board first.
   
  I think the last step is to try Duelunds, but it's gonna be a cosmetic change, maybe I'm wrong, that's what I'm gonna find out.
  Kimchee411, can you enclose a photo here of these babies?


----------



## kimchee411

When you say there is no use trying Duelunds or VCaps without BG first that implies either that BG are better than them or BG somehow influences their performance to a great extent.  Can you really say that BG FK can compete with the likes of V-Cap CuTF in terms of performance?  I have a hard time believing that any electrolytic will provide improvements even close to CuTF.  $50+ is what you would pay for 2.2.uF Clarity MR, which is one of the very best film caps that smokes your run of the mill Solen or Bennic PP.  Is the gap between Elna and BG _that _wide?  Plus it's not just the per cap price that I am balking at, it's the number of caps too.  At today's prices replacing every electrolytic in the Havana can easily run you $1000 assuming you can find all of them.  Can changing one or two provide huge improvements?  If so, what are the key electrolytics to replace first?  I may start with one or two and see what happens.
   
  I am adding a 0.22 C12 CuTF this week and will post photos of the Duelunds when I do that.


----------



## robeeert1

Kimchee,
   
  I wanted to give you a hint seeing you are doing extreme upgrade, you are using Duelunds or Vcaps not kowning how considerable changes provides bendix 6386 '64 or BGs.
  You have your mind of course and decide yourself which parts to replace, as I said before I'm only giving you a hint. One electrolitic BG wiil not provide improvements close to CuTF but 10 x BG I wouldn't be so sure.
   
_Can changing one or two provide huge improvements?  If so, what are the key electrolytics to replace first?  I may start with one or two and see what happens._
   
  Start with 1000uf BG FK and see what happens..
   
  Cheers Robert


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> When you say there is no use trying Duelunds or VCaps without BG first that implies either that BG are better than them or BG somehow influences their performance to a great extent.  Can you really say that BG FK can compete with the likes of V-Cap CuTF in terms of performance?  I have a hard time believing that any electrolytic will provide improvements even close to CuTF.  $50+ is what you would pay for 2.2.uF Clarity MR, which is one of the very best film caps that smokes your run of the mill Solen or Bennic PP.  Is the gap between Elna and BG _that _wide?  Plus it's not just the per cap price that I am balking at, it's the number of caps too.  At today's prices replacing every electrolytic in the Havana can easily run you $1000 assuming you can find all of them.  Can changing one or two provide huge improvements?  If so, what are the key electrolytics to replace first?  I may start with one or two and see what happens.
> 
> I am adding a 0.22 C12 CuTF this week and will post photos of the Duelunds when I do that.


 
   
  @kimchee411,

 I think, the correct answer is ...   b). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  So, Robert refer to these: without BG on the electrolytic section, you don't touch the truly "high-end" sound, or BG influences their performance to a great extent! After I installed about a month ago two non-polars BG (the orange capacitors), I exclaimed: Wow! I couldn't believe that two electrolytic capacitors (placed where they belong) can influence so evident the sound: more refined texture on all frequencies, more rezolution & coherence, a more natural sound! I replaced Elna Silmic-I (47uf/25V) with BG N-series (47uf/50V), just like in the picture made ​​by Robert (two arrows marked with gray).
   
_Can changing one or too provide huge improvements?_
   
  No, it's not a huge difference. Yet it is so important that must be done on this level of quality that we have achieved. I'm totally agree with what he said Robert some time ago: " I can not imagine the Havana sound without them!!" (refers to non-polar BG).
   

   
  The next in importance are those marked with purple arrows. The large capacitor near the R-Core should be replaced (mandatory) with BG FK series! I understand from Robert that it is a critical capacitor and it is important to be replaced with what is better.
  I will try to change the remaining (smal) capacitors : Silmic-I of 47uF with 100uF BG F- series.
   
  Ignat suggested to replace one of 47uF (marked on the photo) with higher value like 100uF.
   

   
  This is Ignat post: "Frankly speaking it was firstly  suggested by someone in the previous posts /I have quoted him/ but the best result in my case was after I simply placed there one general purpose / mean very simple one/ 100 uF.100V in parallel - on the bottom part of the board. Now I have ordered an ELNA Silmic II for there. Be careful - in parallel the value will be the sum of them but the voltage is shared - therefore you need 100 V for the second one".
   
  So I think that the key of electrolytic to be replaced first are those marked in the picture.


----------



## kimchee411

Thanks for pointing out the key positions.
   
  I am already committed to the pot so I might as well go all-in!  So far I have purchased:
   
  (8) F series 100uF/25V
  (5) VK 47/160
  (2) FK 470/16 (<-- Scored these babies at HifiCollective for 8.50 GBP each... last of their BG stock, period!  So proud of myself, haha.)
  (1) K 100/50
  (1) F 470/35
   
  I am debating between either F 1000/25 or FK 1000/16, plus maybe adding 2 FK 100/25 and 2 N 100/50 to use in place of 4 of the 100/25 F series, but going with the FK/N option over the regular F series will cost me *dearly* -- like $200+ more.  Is it worth it?  Is FK that much better than F?  I know N is even better.  Also, what is the deal with K and VK?  Are they as good as FK?  I think K/FK/VK are all grouped together as "K Series" but what are the differences?


----------



## robeeert1

First try 1000uF16V FK and put at least two N-polar BGs in digital section as a second move, nobody can guarantee you better sound, you may not like it, BGs have a very long period of burning-in, for the first several days the sound  is hardly acceptable in some cases.
  You are asking if it is worth to spend over $200 for BGs, you have to risk like you risked purchasing the Duelunds, )
   
  Today I got Vcaps CuTF 0.01uF and installed them as input caps removing the Russian silver micas. I've been listening for 3 hours now.
  The sound is opening *more* with them, trebles are dimmed, (I hope it changes in time), timbre, precision of instruments and depth of image seem to be better.  I'm becoming a true believer of CuTF 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  If they stay longer in my DAC, it depends on the final sonic result after burning-in period. They are very promising...


----------



## kimchee411

So are you saying that you think BG FK is probably worth the large premium over regular BG F for 1000/16 and BG N >> BG F in the digital section?  Yes, obviously there are no guarantees and ultimately I am taking a risk, but I am asking for your opinion so I am not jumping in the deep end completely blind.  I actually already bought BG F 1000/25 and for all 100/25 caps, plus BG VK for all 47/25.  Is it your opinion that N in the digital section and FK for the 1000 uF cap is a worthwhile upgrade from F and/or VK?  What would be the differences?
   
  Here are the pics of the Duelunds.
   
   

  One of the caps is pretty much touching the heatsink, but no signs of any problems so far.
   
   

  Had to insert a new 47 + 100 uF pair with longer leads to push aside
   

  *Just* fits in the case, and I didn't have to "squeeze" it in.
   

   

  NOTE: I added 14 AWG teflon tubing over the bare copper leads.  Since they are running parallel I wanted to avoid the danger of contact between them and also provide some protection against oxidation.  These are radial leads and are too thick for the holes, so I used leftovers from CuTF to extend.
   
   
  I took these as pics I installed the 0.22 300V CuTF.
   
   

   

   
  I only listened 30 minutes or so after making the change, but CuTF definitely shows its magic here!  Obviously things will open up substantially through the long break-in period, but straight out of the box there is a palpable improvement in micro detail, air, clarity, and precision.  I was not sure how much difference the three 0.01uF CuTF made as I was going through a number of changes at the time, but this one is undoubtable, IMO.  Note that I was using Jupiter Vintage Tone here, which does have a... hmm, somewhat warm, creaminess to it.  It sounds indeed quite "vintage" -- hard to describe.  It would be great for an electric guitar amp, but bringing out the nuances in all the pieces of an orchestra is not its forte.  So if you have something like a Clarity MR the contrast might not as be as stark, but nevertheless the character of whatever cap you put there seems to come out at this position.
   
  One more off-topic pic I took on my way to work yesterday...
   
   

   
  The future of daily transportation?


----------



## robeeert1

Your Havana looks great , FK are the highest grade of BGs, they are very rare these days. I didn't directly compare F with FK 1000uF in Havana, I only had 1000uf FK and  the improvement was great, BGs you can buy blind if the price is good even STD grade.
   
   
_So are you saying that you think BG FK is probably worth the large premium over regular BG F for 1000/16 and BG N >> BG F in the digital section?_
   
  I think it is not worth it, but small differences can be heard between F, FK and N. (in digital section you better use N if possible).
   
  How does your new .22 CuTF sound?


----------



## kimchee411

Thanks for your input.  I will hold off on the NX/FK and stick with plain F until I come across a good deal.  I was planning on buying new from Sonic Craft, but the price is high -- $35 per 100/25 FK, $60 for 100/50 N, $75 for 1000/16 FK.  The invoice for 2 + 2 + 1 of the aforementioned came out to $277.  Too painful at this point.
   
  .22 CuTF is a _big _improvement in my opinion -- one of the most noticeable mods.  I would add more punchy and immediate sound to my previous comments.  Are you still using Jupiter Vintage Tone?  If so, I think you will be very happy with an investment in 0.22 300V CuTF.  It costs under $100 if buying more than one, so think if you have any other applications you can apply second one to, or get a group buy going with anyone else who's interested.  Actually Chris gave me the 2-4 qty price for a single because I was also buying a pair of .068 CuTF at the same time, so if you're thinking of adding different values elsewhere you may be able to get a discount on just one .22 as well.


----------



## robeeert1

I'm still using the Jupiter 0.22 "Vintage Tone", it was chosen out of 5 good caps at least, I like its "vintage tone". After reading your very possitive opinion on CuTF 0.22, there is nothing left but to get it somehow.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> .22 CuTF is a _big _improvement in my opinion -- one of the most noticeable mods.  I would add more punchy and immediate sound to my previous comments.  Are you still using Jupiter Vintage Tone?  If so, I think you will be very happy with an investment in 0.22 300V CuTF.  It costs under $100 if buying more than one, so think if you have any other applications you can apply second one to, or get a group buy going with anyone else who's interested.  Actually Chris gave me the 2-4 qty price for a single because I was also buying a pair of .068 CuTF at the same time, so if you're thinking of adding different values elsewhere you may be able to get a discount on just one .22 as well.


 
   
  Those capacitors (0,01 & 0,22 CuTF) tempted me! I think they will be an audiophile delight after burning-in. This weekend is reserved for me for Black Gate.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Those capacitors (0,01 & 0,22 CuTF) tempted me! I think they will be an audiophile delight after burning-in. This weekend is reserved for me for Black Gate.


 
   
  But remember ... no alcohol or your impressions won't count.
   




   
  (just feckin' mate!)
   
  LOL ...
   
  .j


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the key positions. I am already committed to the pot so I might as well go all-in!  So far I have purchased:
> (8) F series 100uF/25V (5) VK 47/160 (2) FK 470/16 (<-- Scored these babies at HifiCollective for 8.50 GBP each... last of their BG stock, period!  So proud of myself, haha.) (1) K 100/50 (1) F 470/35


 
   
  I just changed the electrolytic capacitors, as saying: 10 x BG F 100uF/25V, 1 FK 2.200uF/35V, 2 x N series 47uF/50V (I have now four non-polars). I love BG since at the first time audition. 
  Russian Silver Mica were changed with V-Cap CuTF (0,01 uf/600V);
  Elna Rod Starget were changed with Elna ROB Tonerex (3.300uF/25V);
   
  The sound is much richer, more refined than Elna Silmic-I & Cerafine; Black Gate sounds more natural, with a higher attack, layering, separation and decay. The air between instruments is incredible.
  The voice has become so coherent and so realistic with a very refined texture. By comparison, Elna Silmic-I has provided a muddy sound, expressionless. I think that Havana react positively to the change from 47uF to 100uF capacitance. I haven't tested individual's contribution, for ex. the 2.200uF of FK BG, but I think the rule is the same. Higher capacitance is better.
   
  Black Gate and V-Cap CuTF to the input sounds absolutely gorgeous! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  and some pictures:


----------



## robeeert1




----------



## loserica

the perfect "gift" for Havana:
   

   
  These Black Gate (especially FK and N series) sounds really good.  
   
*Wish You a Happy New Year!*


----------



## loserica

I ordered two pieces of 0,01 uF CuTF for input and I am extremely curious how can improve Havana's sound yet. This is incredible, in what has turned this DAC with these components, especially CuTF & electrolytic Black Gate, japanese K-grade chips. I think that it is able to become a highly refined DAC!


----------



## robeeert1

Vcap 0.01uF CuTF used as inputs in Havana compared to Russian silver mica play closer to your face and sound richer with incredible precision, extremely well separated instruments.
  They have much better timbre, refinement and fun of listening. Silver Micas play flat in comparison. The articulation of CuTF is much better (stronger) and you'll hear a *better dynamics*.
  It's one of the best upgrades. This is after 200h.
   
  Joel, I'm sober this time, my impressions should count.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  This is it.


----------



## kimchee411

I've installed 1000/25 F, 8x 100/25 F, 2x 470/16 FK, 100/50 K, (4) 47/25 VK and they are surely a worthwhile upgrade!  I can see what you guys mean buy "not huge, but significant".  Definitely more open, clear, and direct, better attack, substantially more air, more micro detail, and more accurate timbre, especially percussion.  I was afraid they might sound thin but that is not the case.  The imaging retains 99% of the weight of the Elna Silmic II but much cleaner sounding.  Very musical and engaging!  The *K are new and not burned in so I will see how they evolve.  I would not pay current N series prices to fill the DAC, but what I paid for the F and *K caps I am very happy!  I may slowly add N caps here and there.   I can see how in some systems BG might be "analytical" or "hi-fi" sounding but for this warm, organic sounding DAC and in my system, which is all tube (6SN7 + 6550) with Tannoy Turnberry SE, the openness and clarity are much welcomed.
   
  Loserica, congrats on the .01 CuTF's.  If you find a big improvement with those, I highly recommend getting the 0.22 to match.
   
  This DAC is really starting to separate itself from all other DACs I've tried.  I believe the PS Audio PWD Mk II has nothing on it now.


----------



## robeeert1

So now you know why Black Gates and Vcaps are so expensive. They are simply the best and you can hear it.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I've installed 1000/25 F, 8x 100/25 F, 2x 470/16 FK, 100/50 K, (4) 47/25 VK and they are surely a worthwhile upgrade!  I can see what you guys mean buy "not huge, but significant".  Definitely more open, clear, and direct, better attack, substantially more air, more micro detail, and more accurate timbre, especially percussion.  I was afraid they might sound thin but that is not the case.  The imaging retains 99% of the weight of the Elna Silmic II but much cleaner sounding.  Very musical and engaging!  The *K are new and not burned in so I will see how they evolve.  I would not pay current N series prices to fill the DAC, but what I paid for the F and *K caps I am very happy!  I may slowly add N caps here and there. I can see how in some systems BG might be "analytical" or "hi-fi" sounding but for this warm, organic sounding DAC and in my system, which is all tube (6SN7 + 6550) with Tannoy Turnberry SE, the openness and clarity are much welcomed.


 
   
  I think, considering what you got (Duelund, V-Cap CuTF, BG, ...) you have now the finest Havana from History 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Black Gate (FK, F, N series) are better than Elna Silmic-I & II for this DAC and sound increasingly better. Differences are indeed, substantially quantitatively and qualitatively. I especially remember the micro details & attack and more refined texture, which are incomparably better from the beginning...I think that with these upgrades (including CuTF input caps), Havana is in a special class sound quality&refinement..
  My congratulations!


----------



## 213Cobra

I've just joined head-fi, and the reason is this thread, specifically. I do very little of my listening via headphones, but when I do it is via Stax SR5 driven from a Stax SRA-3S active tube headphone amplifier. I have for many years been active on Audiogon and AudioAsylum under this same handle as here. My hifi systems are built around Zu speakers and Audion tube SET amplification. I'm just beginning to rip my large CD collection and expect to have a Mac-based server up and running within the year. Vinyl and optical disc are my sources now. In prep for adding computer audio, I began auditioning DACs several months ago, from $1000 - $10,000, adding that as someone long working in the software industry I am very skeptical of the intrinsic value of expensive digital products. I am on the other hand very open to relatively inexpensive digital done well and that openness to simple and inexpensive led me to buying a Havana Balanced, blind, some months ago. I've now bought a second one so I have them in both of my systems.

I'm impressed with the zeal for modification evident among the contributors to this thread, and grateful for the wealth of detail aggregated here. At this stage of my life I don't have as much time for complete rebuild of a stock component as I did earlier in my audio life, but I will make a few changes to internal parts. That's not my topic here.

I use the Zu Mission power cord on both my Havanas, along with Zu digital cable terminated BNC. The Havana Balanced on my main system has Bendix 6385 tubes from 1964 production, and the DAC in the second system has NOS Tung Sol 2c51. After break in and one other discovery early, both DACs sound big, bursty, spatially dimensioned, natural and totally beautiful, to the point where I routinely hear guests say "...that's the best digital I ever heard..."

What is the one other change? It's something I haven't seen addressed here in depth yet. When I first received several DACs to evaluate, including my first Havana Balanced, I wasn't impressed with it. Or perhaps I should just say I was disappointed. I don't have a high-res library yet and with 3000 CDs to rip, still climbing, 16/44 is my only priority for the next couple of years. The first batch of DACs I got my hands on were Berkeley Alpha, Auralic ARK+, Havana Balanced and Yulong D18 Sabre. I wanted a range of prices, methods, core chipsets to get calibrated. If you're interested I can post comments on these and others but for now, I'll stick to mhdt.

I had prior experience noticing the acute sensitivity of digital electronics to isolation or coupling, and the surface they rest upon. Out of the box and still with a week of burn-in and listening, Havana was smooth, but just wouldn't wake up. It was dead boring. I bought a range of the acceptable alternate buffer tubes and that improved things somewhat, once I got out of the WE 396 variants. Then I started experimenting with resonance control. My racks on both systems are custom laminated solid maple. Everything analog and my optical decks sound good on the surfaces. The racks are coupled to the floor of a slab house via large brass cones, with 10-16 DB of attenuation of any remaining floor-transmitted vibration courtesy of Herbie's Audio Labs decoupling sliders. It was clear from the start that Havana Balanced doesn'l like to rest on its own feet on any surface -- I tried several surfaces listening through Stax phones as well as Zu Definition 4 speakers. Magnetic levitation made things worse. Herbie's Grungebuster Dots were neutral to the cause. Large brass cones on maple improved things significantly and I almost stopped there. But then I put Havana Balanced on a set of Aurios Media Bearings, to achieve a transformational result. I've had similar results with bearings under certain other gear, so wasn't too surprised, except the magnitude of this change was truly exceptional, even extraordinary. I'm going to make some cap changes, but having dones so in other gear in the past I'll venture to say that this change can exceed a fair combination of accumulated electronic component changes. I also then installed K chips (Malaysian) for some further improvement to resolution and projection.

The other DACs all had their resting preferences too. The Aurilic's engineering included physical design of the case and materials to address resonance and it sounded the same on any surface. It needed no further attention. The Berkeley was conclusively improved in different ways by Aurios bearings and magnetic levitation. The Yulong did not like sitting on anything but its own feet on maple.

I think a variety of bearing types will improve Havana and Havana Balanced, including Symposium Rollerblocks. I am also going to try some of the cheaper Herbie's options like Tenderfeet and Iso-cups, for recommendation to people on more of a budget. Also wood cones, carbon fiber, and laminated multi-materials. I'll also say that bearings or cones under Havana Balanced's feet works better than under the bottom plate directly.

I encourage you all to experiment with the physical supports under your Havana and Havana Balanced DACs. Different options will sound different. I find this DAC to be very sensitive to what it rests on and some materials take it backwards, if you have anything like Aurios Media Bearings around, the results of using them may be very surprising in a positive way, to you.

Phil


----------



## s1rrah

Nice comments. Welcome...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Remember upper range doesn't always mean better, silver/gold sounds perfect in Havana but take a risk and install SGIO.
> I also tried Elna Silmic II 3300uF and compared them with  Elna ROB Tonerex 3300uF. (PS Big filtering caps 3300uF are better than 2200uF in the case of Havana)
> Tonerex is more natural and I liked them much better, so lower grade doen't mean worse,
> but the best cap choice is Black Gate FK series. Elna Silmic II is not as half good as BG "Fk", "F", "NX" series.


 
   
  I found this old post. Yes, It is very true: BG "Fk", "F", "N" series are the best choice for Havana, clearly better from Elna Silmic I & Silmic II and Cerafine! And what enjoyable sound have those Blake Gate!
  After the minimum hours of burning-in, audio layering, the separation of instruments&sound-stage and the transparency (texture) are gorgeous (in collaboration with CuTF, obvious..)
   
  I LOVE them.


----------



## loserica

Because there are many who use V-Cap CuTF, I think it is important what is noted here:
   
  "

  All V-Cap series use 18 AWG solid copper leads. Because of the nature of solid core copper, extra care should be exercised when bending the leads for installation.
  Leads should be kept as short as possible, and the caps should be mounted securely. 3M double-sided foam tape works well, as does nylon ties for the heavier parts. _If using nylon ties, secure towards the *outer edges* of the part vs, the central portion of the winding, and avoid over-tightening._
  Although the V-Caps are not polarized, many have found it best to keep the lead orientation relative to the innermost and outermost foil consistent between left and right channels. Placement of the outer foil for each V-Cap series is listed below. Note that these are general guidelines, and there may be instances where reversing the caps may prove to be preferred in your system.
   
  For CuTF & TFTF series:
   

 The green lead indicates the outermost foil, and should be connected to the lowest impedance path to ground. Another way to identify outer foil is the writing on the label flows towards the outer foil.
 When used in amplifiers, outer foil should be connected towards the plate of first stage
 If using as a bypass cap to ground, connect green lead to ground.
 If using as a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect green lead to B+.
 If using in a feedback position, connect green lead towards the output ".
   
  http://www.v-cap.com/installation-notes.php


----------



## redcat2

As Xmas has just passed some spare time on my hands to test some 6385 tubes i purchased of EBay, i purchased these about 3 months ago been waiting for some time to test and burn them in and give my opinion on these Russian tubes.
  All tubes where left to burn in for 20 hours then 40 hours, now i no these tubes are cheap to buy so here goes.
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6N3P-E-2C51-6385-ECC42-Russian-double-triode-NIB-NOS-Tubes-2-pcs-/280758505664?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item415e82d0c0
   
  These where ok, for the money better than some 5670 4 times the price.
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USSR-6N3P-E-2C51-6385-ECC42-double-triode-tubes-NEW-NOS-QTY-2pcs-/320915190672?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab8093390
   
  These where not good, the sound of strings or percussion sounds just feel off the end no room to breath with this tube.
   
  Now i no this is not a perfect world, but if i was to compare these to my Bendix 6385 on a score bored them the Bendix would be a 9 out of 10, these Russian tubes above would be a low 2 out of 10.
  They did not give the sparkle of sound or depth to the sound stage, in closing do not waste money on these.


----------



## loserica

Quote:


robeeert1 said:


> Vcap 0.01uF CuTF used as inputs in Havana compared to Russian silver mica play closer to your face and sound richer with incredible precision, extremely well separated instruments.
> They have much better timbre, refinement and fun of listening. Silver Micas play flat in comparison. The articulation of CuTF is much better (stronger) and you'll hear a *better dynamics*.
> It's one of the best upgrades. This is after 200h.


 
   
  I have only twenty-thirty hours with CuTF (to the input stage) and it is too early to make elaborated judgments, but I would not be able to return to Silver Mica!! With CuTF, instruments are credible in terms of realism. Resolution and the micro-details are also improved and I think these issues will improve gradually with their burning-in. It seems to be one of the best upgrades for Havana, without reservation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Loserica, congrats on the .01 CuTF's.  If you find a big improvement with those, I highly recommend getting the 0.22 to match.
> This DAC is really starting to separate itself from all other DACs I've tried.  I believe the PS Audio PWD Mk II has nothing on it now.


 
   
  I ordered the 0,22uF capacity and the third 0,01 CuTF. In about two weeks the CuTF "set" will be almost completely and I think, ...here is the end of the road with this DAC (for me)!


----------



## twinkle

There is a new MHDT DAC out, using AK4396.
   
  A head-fi thread got started at:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/650126/mhdt-steeplechase-nos-tube-24-192-dac-thoughts#post_9143290
  
  Any Havana user having tried this new DAC yet? and if so, how does it compare?


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





213cobra said:


> I've just joined head-fi, and the reason is this thread, specifically. I do very little of my listening via headphones, but when I do it is via Stax SR5 driven from a Stax SRA-3S active tube headphone amplifier. I have for many years been active on Audiogon and AudioAsylum under this same handle as here. My hifi systems are built around Zu speakers and Audion tube SET amplification. I'm just beginning to rip my large CD collection and expect to have a Mac-based server up and running within the year. Vinyl and optical disc are my sources now. In prep for adding computer audio, I began auditioning DACs several months ago, from $1000 - $10,000, adding that as someone long working in the software industry I am very skeptical of the intrinsic value of expensive digital products. I am on the other hand very open to relatively inexpensive digital done well and that openness to simple and inexpensive led me to buying a Havana Balanced, blind, some months ago. I've now bought a second one so I have them in both of my systems.
> 
> I'm impressed with the zeal for modification evident among the contributors to this thread, and grateful for the wealth of detail aggregated here. At this stage of my life I don't have as much time for complete rebuild of a stock component as I did earlier in my audio life, but I will make a few changes to internal parts. That's not my topic here.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Welcome, Phil, and thanks for your observations!  Indeed, resonance control is a big aspect that hasn't really been addressed in this thread.  I admittedly haven't done much in terms for feet/platforms with this DAC and my systems in general, though the changes I have made have been certainly noticeable.  I am planning on trying various metal and wood spikes and will eventually get thick maple platforms for my electronics.  Currently I am using some cheap bearing type metal feet I got off eBay.  Not sure what kind of difference they make but will do some testing.  Question for you: how do you attach the feet/spikes/pods to the component?  I have used thin double sided tape but am thinking maybe thin dab of Blu Tac to provide better coupling and energy transfer between the component to the footers.
   
   
  On another note, I got my hands on a pair of NOS 1966 Bendix 6385 at an amazingly good price and tried one out last night.  WOW, unquestionably the best tube I've used in this DAC.  So much detail and separation compared to any other tube, even the Bendix 2C51.  Unbelievable bass as well and a vibrant, musical sound across the spectrum.
   
  There is an eBay fixed price listing that went up today for NOS 1964 6385 at $150.  "More than 10 available" -- get em while they last.  I bought 2 of those as well.  It is a decent price for a tube that is hard to find.  I know because I've been looking for months!  Even though it's double what I paid for the 1966 pair I currently have I still think it's well worth the cost because it's that good.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-6385-2C51-396A-5670-6N3P-NOS-NIB-/281062535003?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4170a1ef5b


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Welcome, Phil, and thanks for your observations!  Indeed, resonance control is a big aspect that hasn't really been addressed in this thread.  I admittedly haven't done much in terms for feet/platforms with this DAC and my systems in general, though the changes I have made have been certainly noticeable.  I am planning on trying various metal and wood spikes and will eventually get thick maple platforms for my electronics.  Currently I am using some cheap bearing type metal feet I got off eBay.  Not sure what kind of difference they make but will do some testing.  Question for you: how do you attach the feet/spikes/pods to the component?  I have used thin double sided tape but am thinking maybe thin dab of Blu Tac to provide better coupling and energy transfer between the component to the footers.
> 
> 
> On another note, I got my hands on a pair of NOS 1966 Bendix 6385 at an amazingly good price and tried one out last night.  WOW, unquestionably the best tube I've used in this DAC.  So much detail and separation compared to any other tube, even the Bendix 2C51.  Unbelievable bass as well and a vibrant, musical sound across the spectrum.
> ...


 
   
  Well done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> I took these as pics I installed the 0.22 300V CuTF.
> 
> 
> 
> I only listened 30 minutes or so after making the change, but CuTF definitely shows its magic here!  Obviously things will open up substantially through the long break-in period, but straight out of the box there is a palpable improvement in micro detail, air, clarity, and precision.  I was not sure how much difference the three 0.01uF CuTF made as I was going through a number of changes at the time, but this one is undoubtable, IMO.  Note that I was using Jupiter Vintage Tone here, which does have a... hmm, somewhat warm, creaminess to it.  It sounds indeed quite "vintage" -- hard to describe.  It would be great for an electric guitar amp, but bringing out the nuances in all the pieces of an orchestra is not its forte.  So if you have something like a Clarity MR the contrast might not as be as stark, but nevertheless the character of whatever cap you put there seems to come out at this position.


 
   
  I felt what you said here, also. But takes time for burning-in (they are CuTF..) Mine 0,22 CuTF is of 600V, therefore is slightly larger - but perfect fit.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> On another note, I got my hands on a pair of NOS 1966 Bendix 6385 at an amazingly good price and tried one out last night.  WOW, unquestionably the best tube I've used in this DAC.  So much detail and separation compared to any other tube, even the Bendix 2C51.  Unbelievable bass as well and a vibrant, musical sound across the spectrum.
> 
> There is an eBay fixed price listing that went up today for NOS 1964 6385 at $150.  "More than 10 available" -- get em while they last.  I bought 2 of those as well.  It is a decent price for a tube that is hard to find.  I know because I've been looking for months!  Even though it's double what I paid for the 1966 pair I currently have I still think it's well worth the cost because it's that good.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-6385-2C51-396A-5670-6N3P-NOS-NIB-/281062535003?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4170a1ef5b


 
   
  Nice find, congratulations! That Bendix is a good tube, some day you'll find much better tube, believe me.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Nice find, congratulations! That Bendix is a good tube, some day you'll find much better tube, believe me.


 
   
  Thanks.  Do you mean you think there's a better tube out there than the 1960's Bendix 6385, or better deals?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Thanks.  Do you mean you think there's a better tube out there than the 1960's Bendix 6385, or better deals?


 

 There is a better tube out there. The deals were great especially the first one. (1966).


----------



## redcat2

Hi, i have been using some 6386 GE 5 star which are a great tube to look at to, i love the bendix 6385 and the 2C51. I like the 2C51 for good hard rock dance music and the 6385 for when more space is needed in the sound.


----------



## 213Cobra

>>how do you attach the feet/spikes/pods to the component<<
   
  When I have to attach a cone to the underside of equipment where the cone has a flat top or there is no option for a bolt, I use appropriate size GrungeBuster dots from Herbie's Audio Lab. These can be ordered with adhesive on one side or both sides. The Grungebuster dots (also available in sheets to cut to needs, or for interior damping) are made from a flexible elastomer that attenuates mechanical energy and despite its flexibiltily, compresses very little. The adhesive Herbie's uses is tenacious but removeable. This is sonically and mechanically much better than Blu-tak. GrungeBuster Dots are here: http://herbiesaudiolab.net/gb.htm.
   
  >>unquestionably the best tube I've used in this DAC. So much detail and separation compared to any other tube, even the Bendix 2C51.<<
   
  Bendix 6385 is a spacious and revealing tube in this circuit. I think preference for it is going to be quite system and listener dependent however. Of the many tubes I've tried, the Bendix '60s 6385 is the most detailed, spacious and articulate, but the Bendix 2c51 is close in these respects and its tone density counters the leaner sound of the 6385. I find, for example that the 6385 vs. 2c51 is a close call in the Havana Balanced in which I am using PCM56P-K chips, with one tube being preferable on some music but losing out to the other on some performances. We're on the fringe when we're changing output buffer tubes in our DACs by the album or track! But the 6385 is definitely not the right tube to use with the AD1865 chips in the Havana Balanced. The AD1865 bring exactly what the Bendix 6385 does, but at the point of D>A origin: more definition, more articulate leading-edge transient detail, more event separation but leaner tonality. With the AD1865 chipset that I run in my second Havana Balanced, the Bendix 2c51 sounds tonally and harmonically more complete. I am interested in trying the 6386 to see if it splits the difference. I just got Russian 6N3P-DR to try as well. My Bendix 6385s are from 1964. The '64 is reputed to be the grail version. I haven't heard the 1966 production. I wonder whether you'll prefer it to the '64 when you get the latter.
   
  Phil


----------



## redcat2

Let me no when you have tested out those Russian 6N3P-DR, i don't hold out much hope as i tried quite a number of those tubes and they all fall short be quite some distance.
  But what you say is very true some tubes sound better with different music.


----------



## davidtemple

nice, thanks for the info!


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kimchee411* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I only listened 30 minutes or so after making the change, but CuTF definitely shows its magic here!  Obviously things will open up substantially through the long break-in period, but straight out of the box there is a palpable improvement in micro detail, air, clarity, and precision.  I was not sure how much difference the three 0.01uF CuTF made as I was going through a number of changes at the time, but this one is undoubtable, IMO.  Note that I was using Jupiter Vintage Tone here, which does have a... hmm, somewhat warm, creaminess to it.  It sounds indeed quite "vintage" -- hard to describe.  It would be great for an electric guitar amp, but bringing out the nuances in all the pieces of an orchestra is not its forte.  So if you have something like a Clarity MR the contrast might not as be as stark, but nevertheless the character of whatever cap you put there seems to come out at this position.


 
   
  Eugene,
   
  I feel that the 0,22 CuTF V-Cap it shows its potential here only now, after 250 hours (for me).. I don't know how it sounds Jupiter vintage tone or Clarity Cap (although I would like to know), but somethink is clear for me: CuTF is suitable here. The sound is more articulate, with a better separation and layering. However, differences between CuTF and Auricap (of 0,22 capacitance) are substantial; the same is true for the differences between Russian Silver Mica and CuTF (of 0,01uF). Simply, audition turns into something emotional and alive with V-Cap.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,All got a problem with the Havana the unit has today dropped its output volume to half what it was and there is an humming sound that gets louder when the volume is turned up.
   
  Any ideas please before i start pulling the thing apart over the weekend?
   
  One thing that i noticed today myself was the on/off switch on the front panel seems very lose.


----------



## MomijiTMO

It's not a bad tube is it?


----------



## redcat2

That's a good question, should not be i had just changed the tubes when this had happened, i will have a look. Another dead Bendix lol.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,Yes changed the tube, woo never had anything fail like that before, one dead Bendix.
   
  I have put a brand new nos Bendix in got complete silence, no earth sound just black.


----------



## s1rrah

Quick question for the Havana folk ... what other readily available DAC chips will work in the Havana/Stockholm other than the PCM56 variants?
   
  I remember reading something from MHDT where Jiun was discussion other DAC chips that could work but I can't find that bit anywhere ... I'm wanting to try some different (non PCM56 chips....anything I  might be able to order from Arrow or Ebay and the like ...
   
  Thanks!
   
  PS > I got a second DAC recently, a Stello DA100 (which I've heard before) and it's really interesting to switch between the Stockholm and the Stello; it's amazing how much more smooth the NOS Stockholm sound is than the oversampling Stello. The Stello is a good DAC and I'm going to keep it as counterpoint ... slightly more detailed and a tad deeper/tighter bass but it doesn't come close to equaling the Havana/Stockholm musicality and liquid highs. The Stello's highs are just a tad too "hot" or "sizzling" at the trailing edges. Overall, I prefer the Havana/Stockholm...


----------



## robeeert1

You can replace PCM56 with AD1856 D/A converter


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> You can replace PCM56 with AD1856 D/A converter


 
   
  Thanks Robert ... 
   
  What term should I look for in the description to ensure that it's the sort that can plug in to the socket? Is this what SOIC means? I ask because some of the providers I have found show the chip with "flat" feet, of the sort that seem only appropriate for surface solder applications.
   
  For instance, I found this one (though not in stock) ... the picture doesn't look right, though: 
   
  http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&keywords=ad1856rz&WT.term=ad1856rz&WT.mc_id=Integrated%20Circuits%20(ICs)&WT.medium=cpc&WT.campaign=Integrated%20Circuits%20(ICs)&WT.srch=1&WT.content=text&type=Exact&WT.source=google&cshift_ck=62717650-6c4c-4c39-8775-eced7460d950cs917030986&cur=USD
   
  Thanks for any assist.
   
  .joel


----------



## robeeert1

You have to pay attention to package/case. R=SOIC (small outline integrated circuit)
   
  Look for AD1856*N*-K


----------



## s1rrah

Thank you Jedi Master.


----------



## loserica

Hi,
   
  Who compared directly Auricap with Clarity Cap MR series into Havana? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I will try to replace all Auricaps with them (of 0,1uF capacity)
  They should be better from Auricap...
  here's what it says here:
  "...Whatever they did performed some major transformation to the sound, as the MR sounds nothing like SA, sounding far more extended, neutral, dynamic, and yes, resolved.  As far as frequency extension, there is nothing to fault here, as both top and bottom go as high and low as can be desired; however, what’s even more impressive is how all the ranges in between seem coherent, finely-textured, and natural, with nothing sticking out like a sore thumb.  I kept thinking how smooth everything sounds while presenting a high degree of detail resolution across the frequency range, as good as a polypropylene cap gets including the exotic ones from Mundorf, etc.

 Another benefit of this smooth precision seems to be outstanding imaging and separation within the soundstage, which is filled with air and “space”.  No smudging and blending together of instruments into blobs, which can happen with less precise caps.  These characteristics enable the MR to sound like the proverbial “no cap” better than most, if not all, polypropylene caps I have tested.  In fact, the MR sounds less colored than quite a few exotics, including some teflons, PIO’s, polystyrene, etc.  There is a downside to this neutrality, however, as the MR may not be the cap to shave off some rough edges from a bright source, plump up the low-midrange of that lean amp, or add extra “wetness” to that dry solid-state system.  But if your system is reasonably neutral and resolute and if you don’t want to “hear the cap” at a reasonable price, then the ClarityCap MR just may be the cap you have been waiting for". 
   
  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.540


----------



## MomijiTMO

redcat2 said:


> Hi,Yes changed the tube, woo never had anything fail like that before, one dead Bendix.
> 
> I have put a brand new nos Bendix in got complete silence, no earth sound just black.




Glad it was something less scary


----------



## loserica

V-Cap CuTF of 0,22uF/600V & 0,01uF instead of Auricap&Russian silver mica turns Havana into something that makes me a great pleasure to listen. CuTF have more than four hundred hours and differences from 200-300 hours are consistent. I feel like listening (as I said) to another dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. It has deepened this impression compared that some time ago when I first installed CuTF capacitors. They do a very good job  here. Everything is changed in the positive way: there is more control, a sense of texture and realism, the bass is quick and firm and the highs are extended and refined with a great sense of AIR!! The midrange turns into something delicate but able to be played very realistically at the same time. The sound has opened beautiful. Havana is capable now for a wide, spacious presentation. This is incredible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I feel like ,..I don't want to change anything from now on. Everything seems to be so perfect for Havana, but I have to say that I listen music exclusively on headphones and I perceive a limiting factor on them. It's not like listening speakers. Still I have a strange impression: I realize that I'm not highlight the entire Havana sound potential...that's it.  But, I'm absolutely convinced that CuTF is also here  one of the best options.


----------



## M3NTAL

Just received my Mouser order for the PCMP56PK.  
   
  They are printed as:
  PCMP56P with a K grade on the right side and a country of origin of MLA
   
  The originals are printed as:
  PCMP56PK with a J grade on the right side and a country of origin of Japan
   
  Hope this helps anyone looking to make an order.


----------



## mink70

Question for the Havana experts. My Havana sounds amazing with my speaker setup, especially with the triple-mica GE tube. The priority there is on mellowness and good tone. But when I connect it to one of my headphone amps—Bottlehead Crack and CTH—it sounds indistinct, soft, and low in gain. By comparison, the Centrance Dacport LE—which is a lot brighter and less juicy—sounds much more full and detailed through headphones. Anyone else experience this? Does the Havana have a low output level, or high impedance, or something else?


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Question for the Havana experts. My Havana sounds amazing with my speaker setup, especially with the triple-mica GE tube. The priority there is on mellowness and good tone. But when I connect it to one of my headphone amps—Bottlehead Crack and CTH—it sounds indistinct, soft, and low in gain. By comparison, the Centrance Dacport LE—which is a lot brighter and less juicy—sounds much more full and detailed through headphones. Anyone else experience this? Does the Havana have a low output level, or high impedance, or something else?


 
   
  I'm not consider myself an "Havana expert", I just followed the recipe for success whit this DAC, to be closer to the dream sound. I, Robert, and other  owners of this DAC, we listen in large part on headphones (in our case, electrostatic ear-speakers). I have never reported such problems. I use for example only the digital coaxial input and the signal coming out of PC (iMac) is converted usb>>Spdif by an external transport. Which input (usb, coax or optic) you use when heard on headphones?


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





loserica said:


> I'm not consider myself an "Havana expert", I just followed the recipe for success whit this DAC, to be closer to the dream sound. I, Robert, and other  owners of this DAC, we listen in large part on headphones (in our case, electrostatic ear-speakers). I have never reported such problems. I use for example only the digital coaxial input and the signal coming out of PC (iMac) is converted usb>>Spdif by an external transport. Which input (usb, coax or optic) you use when heard on headphones?


 

 Thanks for that. I use a good USB cable out of my Mac into a Stello U2 USB-Spdif converter, then a Wireworld Coax into the Havana. I prefer that sound over USB direct into Havana. At least on the speakers.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Thanks for that. I use a good USB cable out of my Mac into a Stello U2 USB-Spdif converter, then a Wireworld Coax into the Havana. I prefer that sound over USB direct into Havana. At least on the speakers.


 

 It's a good setup. I successfully use the Legato. My eXStatA is made in a purist way, also: there isn't lights, volume potentiometer, the transformer (which is a Hammond 369JX)  is positioned outside/not inside into amplifier, etc. Bottlehead Crack is based on tubes, mine is solid state. From experience (confirmed by others), Havana is synergistic and prefer the "SS" amplifying becouse, ...there are to many tubes. You know what I mean?
  So, with my electrostatic setup I perform the volume control from the player (just digital control). I noticed that the sound into headphones  was allways undistorted and *extremely** powerful!*


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> Question for the Havana experts. My Havana sounds amazing with my speaker setup, especially with the triple-mica GE tube. The priority there is on mellowness and good tone. But when I connect it to one of my headphone amps—Bottlehead Crack and CTH—it sounds indistinct, soft, and low in gain. By comparison, the Centrance Dacport LE—which is a lot brighter and less juicy—sounds much more full and detailed through headphones. Anyone else experience this? Does the Havana have a low output level, or high impedance, or something else?


 
   
  I'm no expert, either but I _have_ used MHDT DACs for more than a few years; going on five or six? I'm not sure. First a Paradisea, then a Paradisea+, then a Havana (for the longest) and now a Stockholm (v1).
   
  I've used them with electrostatics myself (SR-404/SRM-006T) and for the past four years or so, with Grado GS1000's (the headphones I've found to best approximate the speed and soundstage of the Stax set up I had, which I loved but sold in favor of a more flexible dynamic set up). Across the board, with both solid state amps (a Stello HP100 for a couple years) and a Ray Samuel's Raptor tube amp, I've never found the MHDT DACs (especially the Havana and even more so the Stockholm) to sound indistinct or soft. Granted, the v1 Stockholm that I have, has slightly less output than the Havana previously but this simply means a very slight up tick in my amps volume pot; I in fact, find the Stockholm to be a slightly more lively and detailed (spacious) DAC than I do the Havana but I enjoy them equally.
   
  I also have had several other DACs in my house, an Electrocompaniet ECD-1, a Neko D100 Mk2 and a Stello DA100 ... and just speaking clinically, both the ECD-1 and Stello DACs were quite a bit more "digital" sounding, more hyper (execrated to my ear) detail and what I consider in so many DACs to have a very unrealistic character to the high frequencies which I just don't like ... especially with Stax ear phones and even more so with the Grado GS1000's. The Neko DAC, to it's credit and though not technically a NOS design, was still _very_ reminiscent of the Havana/Stockholm DACs with perhaps a bit better, tighter and deeper bass.
   
  But I certainly never have found the Havana to sound soft or lifeless or anything like that; it could have to do with my earphone choice as the GS1000's are extremely sensitive to source and amp, having about the most detailed voice of any headphone I've ever heard (short of certain Stax I've heard) ... and the high freqs, especially, can become troubling if not amped/sourced correctly. But the Havana has always been one of my favorite DACs for them, even with my Ray Sam Raptor tube amp (which, technically, is a hybrid amp as it uses a solid state power supply cabled to a separate tube output amp stage; it's a very fast but still obviously tube sound).
   
  Anyway ... hope you get it suss'd. I know that having multiple sources/amps in my house sort of gets me confused at times and I can spend, literally, DAYS A/B listening. But once I settle on any give set up and leave it in place for more than a couple days? I end up loving it, no matter what it is, really (though in the end, I prefer the NOS sound over up sampling, any day and specifically with my cans).
   
  Best...
  .joel


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I've used them with electrostatics myself (SR-404/SRM-006T) and for the past four years or so,


 
   
  I've had this setup two years ago. Then Havana was upgraded only with JW 396A (WE) and V-Cap OIMP. The sound was relaxed, and I really enjoyed. After that, I went to SR-404LE and eXStatA (SS). I owned both setups simultaneously and I made some comparations between them. The "Limited Ed." of Stax was clearly better. Instruments were FULL-body... and with 404LE the sound texture was more refined compared with SR-404.
  Today, after going through lengthy series of changes (but it was my non-audiophile pleasure: the tunning!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Havana sounds special with 404LE & eXStatA!!  If I remember correctly, it was about seven / eight upgrade session with Havana; to many, yet...but it was worth.
   
  Quote: 





s1rrah said:


> I also have had several other DACs in my house, an Electrocompaniet ECD-1, a Neko D100 Mk2 and a Stello DA100 ... and just speaking clinically, both the ECD-1 and Stello DACs were quite a bit more "digital" sounding, more hyper (execrated to my ear) detail and what I consider in so many DACs to have a very unrealistic character to the high frequencies which I just don't like ... especially with Stax ear phones and even more so with the Grado GS1000's. The Neko DAC, to it's credit and though not technically a NOS design, was still _very_ reminiscent of the Havana/Stockholm DACs with perhaps a bit better, tighter and deeper bass.


 
   
  Eugene compared Havana (it was the full-upgraded version with CuTF, Black Gate, K-grade japanese chips, etc.) with other more expensive DACs, including Calyx, Metrum Octave and Berkeley Alpha and the results were surprising. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  allow me to *quote*: >>[size=smaller][size=larger]"I cannot understate how much the Havana can improve over its stock incarnation -- I mean many leagues better. Havana owners can probably all agree that it is not a highly detailed or dynamic DAC, but it is clearly the most detailed DAC I've had in my system now and maybe the most dynamic as well. It is really something special when you put very good parts in it. The costs add up (especially the teflon V-Caps!) and well exceed the price of DAC itself, but in the end it can easily stand up to, and I would imagine for many people beat, far more expensive units".<<[/size][/size]
  Very interesting.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *loserica* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Eugene compared Havana (it was the full-upgraded version with CuTF, Black Gate, K-grade japanese chips, etc.) with other more expensive DACs, including Calyx, Metrum Octave and Berkeley Alpha and the results were surprising.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't doubt this at all. I'm not going to mod my own DAC any time soon, mostly as I don't have the skillz necessary and nor the money at this point; but, I *am* stalking Audigon and various other forums on the chance a mod'd Havana comes up for sale ...
   
  Further, and for those who might be considering such themselves? I find the stock Havana and Stockholm for that matter, to be an *exceptional* value for the asking price ... like I said, I've tried a bunch of others, some twice the price and have never thought about changing (going on quite a few years now).
   
  Rock.
   
  .joel


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Hi,
> 
> Who compared directly Auricap with Clarity Cap MR series into Havana?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I didn't compare Auricaps and Clarity Cap Mr but I don't recommend those (i mean the MR caps) on strategic points as, if widely open, they're not musical. I put 2 on input in my havana because they're famous to open the sound and create a lot of air but my trebles are quite harsh, straights (stiff). There's something not musical in the sound of my havana. I strongly suspect them to create this and I'm going to change them for something silkier, more analogic. I already changed one on C12 some months ago by a Jupiter HT cap and the sound was more pleasant, more analogic.
   
  I also have a Mundorf silver/gold/oil cap, and several Silmic on power section inside, so they must have their impact on what i hear but i'm pretty sure harsh trebles and lack of musicality I hear are caused by Mr caps on input.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I didn't compare Auricaps and Clarity Cap Mr but I don't recommend those (i mean the MR caps) on strategic points as, if widely open, they're not musical. I put 2 on input in my havana because they're famous to open the sound and create a lot of air but my trebles are quite harsh, straights (stiff). There's something not musical in the sound of my havana. I strongly suspect them to create this and I'm going to change them for something silkier, more analogic. I already changed one on C12 some months ago by a Jupiter HT cap and the sound was more pleasant, more analogic.
> I also have a Mundorf silver/gold/oil cap, and several Silmic on power section inside, so they must have their impact on what i hear but i'm pretty sure harsh trebles and lack of musicality I hear are caused by Mr caps on input.


 
  ok, Thank you. Havana remains unchanged this time.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





loserica said:


> Eugene compared Havana (it was the full-upgraded version with CuTF, Black Gate, K-grade japanese chips, etc.) with other more expensive DACs, including ........Berkeley Alpha and the results were surprising.


 
   
  Really ? We all have different Havanas here depending on what we put inside but I actually have the Total Dac A1 at home (which is famous here to be a very good NOS dac http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac/1.html - worth 3000 euros now) and on my setup A1 is better than Havana. It's not night & day but significative enough, A1 is definitively more pleasant to listen to. As I said previously Clarity MR caps I put on input are really not musical (well I think this is due to Mr caps) and I guess if I change them by something else differences between both dacs would be less important. However I'm not sure it will be enough to make up A1 as it sounds very coherent in many aspects to my ears.
   
  Except problem of musicality and harsh trebles I mentionned the other thing I noticed easily when listening back to Havana after A1 is that my Havana is a bit more flat and lifeless. Timbres & presence feelings are as good on both, and even very slightly better on havana (jupiter and silmic effect may be), recordings atmospheres, mids in general, spatiality too. But otherwise I'd say A1 is a bit better on the rest or at least especially : better coherence, balance, micro details, micro trebles that bring life to music, fluency, may be better dynamic ? May be air, attacks and decay are also better on A1 too but I'm not sure i would have to compare more carefully. For example sometimes there's something that hurts my ears on low frequencies or low mids on my dac that disapears with A1, it seems low frequencies, mids and trebles are more homegenous, coherent in their globality (better fluency). I also hear more impact, life in music on most of recordings this may be due to a lack of micro trebles on havana, something Ioserica mentionned when he spoke about the Sanyo oscon.
   
  Once again it's not night & day (except the problem regarding Clarity Mr caps) but nor marginal, let's say the difference is as big as if I would put rcore back from havana. The result is that A1 sounds more refined, musical, involving & coherent.
   
  I only compared both dacs directly 3 times because it's not practical to do it in my room (I mean now i'm just listening A1 without trying direct comparison), but will try to compare more in details on sunday to higlight differences. I would have liked to compare them once my MR caps are replaced by something else but I won't have the opportunity unfortunately. There still has room to improve it with vcap cutf and black gate for example.
   
  Here's my setup : Clarity Mr caps on input, Mundorf silver/gold/oil on C11, Jupiter HT on c12, Silmic 2 on the caps Ioserica/Robert recommend to change by Black Gate (& by the way 3 of them are still the stock ones), and Silmic 1 on power section (don't think it has a big impact on sound). The rest is common at yours I think : rcore, vcap cutf on output, shottky, shinkoh, auricaps, bendix 6385 64'.


----------



## mako44

Well I made another direct comparison, on Jack Johnson tracks this time, my havana is definitively dryer and less musical than A1. I knew that but it's particularly obvious on direct comparison, my havana sounds "horrible" with JJ tracks. It's sharp & dry, digital. Where A1 is silk, soft (in the good sense), analogic, welcoming. I'm not worry about that as I remember I had the same feeling with MR caps on c12 and it disapeard with Jupiter HT. Don't know if it will make up all the gap comparing to A1 though. I wanted to keep Clarity caps to open the sound but i see how much it was an error now.
   
  I have the impression that low frequencies are a bit slower/rounder than A1 (it's slight) however with a more detailed listening there is no more air nor more trebles (there's even a bit more highs on my havana, but they're too harsh). I didn't noticed problems of decay neither.
   
  This Total dac is really nice.... I'll try to swap the MR caps with Silver mica before giving it back if I have the time, I'd like to make a direct comparison without them.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Except problem of musicality and harsh trebles I mentionned the other thing I noticed easily when listening back to Havana after A1 is that my Havana is a bit more flat and lifeless. Timbres & presence feelings are as good on both, and even very slightly better on havana (jupiter and silmic effect may be), recordings atmospheres, mids in general, spatiality too. But otherwise I'd say A1 is a bit better on the rest or at least especially : better coherence, balance, micro details, micro trebles that bring life to music, fluency, may be better dynamic ? May be air, attacks and decay are also better on A1 too but I'm not sure i would have to compare more carefully. For example sometimes there's something that hurts my ears on low frequencies or low mids on my dac that disapears with A1, it seems low frequencies, mids and trebles are more homegenous, coherent in their globality (better fluency). I also hear more impact, life in music on most of recordings this may be due to a lack of micro trebles on havana, something Ioserica mentionned when he spoke about the Sanyo oscon.
> 
> Here's my setup : Clarity Mr caps on input, Mundorf silver/gold/oil on C11, Jupiter HT on c12, Silmic 2 on the caps Ioserica/Robert recommend to change by Black Gate (& by the way 3 of them are still the stock ones), and Silmic 1 on power section (don't think it has a big impact on sound). The rest is common at yours I think : rcore, vcap cutf on output, shottky, shinkoh, auricaps, bendix 6385 64'.


 
   
  @mako44, one question: Have you changed the CuTF (to output)? I remember that you tried the CuTF after a few months ago...
   
  Havana increases _more _just by the latest changes that are very critical for him: Black Gate capacitors (instead Elna), but more importantly CuTF to the input section (and I would add the 0,22uF capacitance). To these are added the japanese K grade chips and probably ROB Tonerex on power section. But the most important changes for this DAC are the BG and V-Cap CuTF capacitors. It need to be reminded the Duelund also, that would be better than CuTf to the output section (Eugene compared them both and it seems that Duelund Cast PIO is a little more natural, more refined..)


----------



## mako44

Yes I have the vcap cutf on output (it brought very nice improvements), I gave my full setup at the end of the previous message if you want the details. Once again I'm sure swapping Mr caps by something else, especially vcap cutf, will change a lot of things : I hear exactly the same bad things than on c12 before choosing for Jupiter HT. And I remember how vcap cutf improved the sound comparing to Mundorf s/g/o on output so no doubt it should be a nice step.
   
  I may also try Black Gate too if you think they're better on havana (cleaner but I read silmic have better timber shades....). However on Jack Johnson direct comparison it was night & day : A1 was on another class. Anyway MR caps (well I hope this is them) distort eveything so I need to put them away before comparing further.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I may also try Black Gate too if you think they're better on havana (cleaner but I read silmic have better timber shades....). However on Jack Johnson direct comparison it was night & day : A1 was on another class. Anyway MR caps (well I hope this is them) distort eveything so I need to put them away before comparing further.


 
   
  BG are better than Elna for Havana! Eugene's post is very convincing to figure out why:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/2145
   
*quote:* "I've installed 1000/25 F, 8x 100/25 F, 2x 470/16 FK, 100/50 K, (4) 47/25 VK and they are surely a worthwhile upgrade!  I can see what you guys mean buy "not huge, but significant".  Definitely more open, clear, and direct, better attack, substantially more air, more micro detail, and more accurate timbre, especially percussion.  I was afraid they might sound thin but that is not the case.  The imaging retains 99% of the weight of the Elna Silmic II but much cleaner sounding.  Very musical and engaging!  The *K are new and not burned in so I will see how they evolve.  I would not pay current N series prices to fill the DAC, but what I paid for the F and *K caps I am very happy!  I may slowly add N caps here and there.   I can see how in some systems BG might be "analytical" or "hi-fi" sounding but for this warm, organic sounding DAC and in my system, which is all tube (6SN7 + 6550) with Tannoy Turnberry SE, the openness and clarity are much welcomed".
   
  Probably you will have a big surprise if you decide to put CuTF of 0,01uF to the input. After the complete burning-in (minimum 500/600 hours) the sound will be changed substantially in better dynamics and texture. You will hear a richer sound with better precision, extremely well separated instruments. CuTF have much better timbre and refinement (compared with Rusian Silver Mica for example). I think, CuTF will be better than ClarityCap MR, also


----------



## kimchee411

mako44, I'd be surprised if your issues are really related to ClarityCap MR.  My experience is that this cap is probably as neutral as any component or part I've ever heard. Definitely no brightness or hardness in the treble.  It is very open, detailed, and clear sounding.  I agree whole-heartedly with the comments quoted by loserica from the AC thread.  I think this best describes my impressions of ClarityCap MR:
   
_[size=small]The MRs are even handed and neutral. They are really quite close to some the most neutral and transparent performers. Ultimately they just lack that last ounce of "the vocalist or instrument is in the room" characteristic, so the last fraction of magic and intimacy isn't quite there, there's a depth of soul that the very best capacitors have a part in portraying, and this is missing. For many this will be a wonderful capacitor when neutrality and transparency are priorities. No harshness was observed. Some capacitors have character, I place the Jupiter in the character category whereas the ClarityCap is neutral it however does not have the depth of soul of the more complete and expensive capacitors.[/size]_
   
  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0511/coupling_capacitors.htm
   
  Technically hard to fault, but just doesn't have that magic/emotion that you pay top $ for.
   
  These caps are easily my 3rd choice next to Duelund CAST and V-Cap CuTF, at a much more reasonable price.  I have used them in all my speaker x-over upgrades (with Duelund/CuTF bypass) with great results.  If replacing all the 0.1uF Auricaps with MR is feasible I will almost certainly end up doing it some day.
   
  I would be looking at Mundorf SGIO as a possible suspect of hard treble.
   
   


s1rrah said:


> The Neko DAC, to it's credit and though not technically a NOS design, was still _very_ reminiscent of the Havana/Stockholm DACs with perhaps a bit better, tighter and deeper bass.


 
   
  I auditioned the Neko Mk2 a bit and agree with this.  The Neko does have that "organic" and "musical" sound like the Havana.  Stock for stock, I would take the Neko over the Havana (if price were not a factor!), but at least compared to the modified Havana the Neko sounded more homogenous with less distinct timbre between instruments.  Not quite as delicate and refined as the Havana, but quite dynamic with good detail, clarity, and separation.


----------



## mako44

I don't know, I remember when I had Clarity MR cap on c12 I already heard "a lot" of harshness and no musicality in sound, then I decided to put Jupiter HT instead and the result was much (much) more musical and better. More balanced, pleasant, I'd say analogic.
   
  When listening to my dac I'm not satisfied, for me it's harsh, dry, lifeless... I have exactly the same feeling than when I had Mr caps on c12, I know I already heard it. So that's why I greatly suspect them to bring this bad sound but may be I'm wrong. I hope not because it would mean I have no issue to improve it.
   
  It's not by chance I borrowed A1 dac, I wanted to listen to it because something was missing on my ears, something was not balanced, there was a problem. Amp, dac , cables ?... Always difficult to say. At the moment I'm listening to Nils Lofgren - Acoustic Live and I have to admit I never heard him like this. A1 brings life and musicality compared to my havana it's obvious.
   
  I read that some others find MR caps are soft/neutral (not in my opinion, at least in havana), an explanation could be that they highlight limits of havana ? Or they're not compatible with my system (reputed to be neutral however) ? Or may be the problem comes from somewhere else I don't know, I'll try with silver mica tomorrow, I'll tell you !


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I don't know, I remember when I had Clarity MR cap on c12 I already heard "a lot" of harshness and no musicality in sound, then I decided to put Jupiter HT instead and the result was much (much) more musical and better. More balanced, pleasant, I'd say analogic.


 
   
  Jupiter HT are pretty well known to be quite warm and rich so perhaps they are compensating for harshness from another source.  I'm interested to see what happens when you swap them out for silver mica.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Jupiter HT are pretty well known to be quite warm and rich so perhaps they are compensating for harshness from another source.  I'm interested to see what happens when you swap them out for silver mica.


 

 If he get better results with silver mica, ...it worth changing the silver mica with CuTF (for _surprisingly_ good results!).
  I think I'm obsessed with CuTF; I think I need to take a break.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





			
				kimchee411 said:
			
		

> I would be looking at Mundorf SGIO as a possible suspect of hard treble.


 
   
  Mako44,
  I would tend to agree with that, replace Mundorf SGIO with something PIO (paper in oil), the harsh treble should dissapper.
   
*C11and C12 are responsible for your problems*.
   
  Replace C13,C14 with 0,01uF Vcaps CuTF.


----------



## mako44

I swapped Clarity MR caps with Silver Mica it's better ! Highs are a bit shortened but it sounds less dry, much better from what I heard. I just listened to 2 tracks so too short to be really sure but I can't listen to more at the moment, i'll make a longer listening & direct comparison tomorrow.
   
  I think the combination of more extended trebles and some properties of the sound of Mr caps created this but will verify this tomorrow.


----------



## mako44

Mhh it's not easy to decide between havana and A1, they're very close from each others on my system...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Mhh it's not easy to decide between havana and A1, they're very close from each others on my system...


 
   
  Well upgraded Havana easily handles 3.000 Euro priced stock DAC.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> Mhh it's not easy to decide between havana and A1, they're very close from each others on my system...


 
   
  I recently compared a DIY "OS" category DAC with Havana and I realized how important is the implementation. Audition was performed on DIY standing-floor speakers. I can not do into details about what components were used.
 So, which were the differences between the two DACs? First, the "OS" dac was able to render a wider stereo image and superior dynamics also. Differences were not large, but immediately obvious. This was revealed very well at medium frequencies; I felt that the voice was more extensive and filled better the room space. Compared with it, Havana sounded slightly inhibited (and this is not due as the V-Cap CuTf capacitors aren't burning-in enough… they actually have over 500 hours). The sound texture was slightly better, also. Afterwards, the "OS" dac was able to play better with greater accuracy the fine micro details. I believe that these differences (with few exceptions) are actually the architectural differences: "NOS" versus "OS".
 On the other DAC are mounted (for the most part) Elna Silmic-II capacitors. Havana certainly benefited by Black Gates capacitors, but not in the radical way! I think the opening sound and a better resolution are given in a largely way by the topology and less matter the capacitors if you compare a non over-sampling with a "OS" dac very well and carefully implemented!!
 In other chapters, both DAC's have sound refined and musical, far to the analytical and digital sound and the differences between them were not great at all.
   
  Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Well upgraded Havana easily handles 3.000 Euro priced stock DAC.


 
   
  So i think that (the full) upgraded Havana is in this price category, it may overtake even more expensive DAC's but the converse is also true: Havana can be surprisingly beaten by cheaper Over sampling Dac's performed in a DIY project (very well implemented).


----------



## mako44

I agree with your vision of NOS and OS dacs, NOS are reputated to be less extended, less resolving but more analogic : favouring musicality vs technical aspects (3d, details and so on). I find back havana in this description (if you compare with zodiac gold range for example).
   
  Regarding Havana vs A1, none easily beat the other on my system. Remember also that A1 was sold nearly 4000 euros few months ago and price has been dropped because a new model is now available. Anyway, i'm very pleased to see my havana, which can still be improved, can compete with a good 3000 euros dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## mako44

Regarding the change of Clarity Mr caps by silver micas on input as I said previously I lost some highs as expected and also a bit of air and may be very slightly less atmosphere feelings (ambiance of recordings) but it's marginal. The real change is less extension (less trebles). But the harsh, unpleasant and dry sound, also tiring, I always heard on my havana has disapeard. It was particularly true on classical music, compressed recordings and classical/acoustic guitar.
   
  I made the choice to extend trebles and try to open more havana by keeping these caps on input, even if I knew they brought some harshness and un-musicality on my system, it was a mistake. I feel this need of more extended trebles but at least it's pleasant to listen to. I had the same bad experience with them on C12.
   
  My floor standing speakers have ribbon tweeters reputated to be soft and precise, and I already heard my speakers + amp with several highly opened CD players (which provide more trebles than havana) : it was very nice and pleasant so I'm sure the problem doesn't come from here. My system is (very) neutral so may be it highlights some defaults of MR caps ? I didn't change many electrolytics caps on my havana  then may be MR caps highlights stock caps limits ? May be it comes from my source (pc) or some of my cables ? I don't know, what is sure is that implementing them doesn't work on my system.
   
  If one of you wants I can send my caps to him and try (I live in europa).


----------



## mako44

I'm looking at BG caps on ebay their price is insane..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm going to order 4 vcap cutf yet : 3 x 0.01uf + 1 x 0.22uf (for c11) if I'm not wrong.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I'm going to order 4 vcap cutf yet : 3 x 0.01uf + 1 x 0.22uf (for c11) if I'm not wrong.


 
   
  Have you ever tried Jupiter Vintage tone of 0,22uF (with Russian silver mica on 0,001uF point)? I want to try it and compare it with CuTF, to see if the financial effort and the "pain of CuTF burning-in" worth (but it can take a few weeks until). So at this point, we can not know exactly how good is here CuTF compared with Jupiter VT and probably not less true that it depends on everyone's taste. I must confess that CuTF (of 0,22uf) is burning-in terribly hard, meaning that up to 400 hours will be often disappointed on the way that sounds. Only after four hundred hours beginning to let go and prove themselves.
  The two capacitors on the input section (0,01 uF) are very important and I haven't the slightest doubt that not doing their job (for hundred percent..)
  So once again, be tested both combinations: CuTF of 0,22+ 0,01uF (one pieces) and Jupiter Vintage tone + silver mica. I think, both are winning solutions but not yet know which is the best...


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I'm looking at BG caps on ebay their price is insane.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  BGs prices are indeed insane.
  My suggestion:
  Order 0,01uF x 2  for input only at the beginning. (C13,C14)
  For C11 (0,22uF) try Jupiter VT (its very cheap) or TF3 Russian (cheap) or something PIO like Jensen,
  and Silver Mica 0,01uF (C12).
  I don't trust Vcpas everywhere, but who knows.
   
  Jupiter VT has really vintage tone at the beginning, after burning-in period it's hard to beat, very good synergy with CS8414 (frankly speaking I didn't find aything better for this place - my favourite)
  FT3 is silky, good cap to tame the trebles. (hard to install in Havana due to its size)
  Jensen Copper - very musical, much air around, withdrawn trebles.


----------



## mako44

Ok thanks for your advices. It's funny/surprising that Vcap Cutf don't have more differences compared with Vintage Tone on C11 than that... I remember they provided more refined and silkier sound than Mundorf s/g/o on output, a big improvement.
   
  I never tried Jupiter Vintage Tone no, I'm a bit afraid about the "old vintage tone", I don't see at all what it can be. Does it colour the sound ?
   
  I already tried Silver micas on c12 and it didn't let me unforgettable memories. Then I tried Clarity MR (same than on input : big opening but harsh sound on my system), then I tried Jupiter HT and I remember I absolutely loved them here : extremely pleasant to listen to, rich presentation, dense textures with lot of matter, bringing a lot of presence and a kind of magic (but less extensiona dn clarity than MR caps of course). Not at all the more neutral but they're still there. Did you try them on c12 as well ?
   
  On my mind s/g/o make a good job on C11, on my mind they provide what you like in black gate (I never heard BG though) : clean sound, a straight presentation, liveliness, opening, details... I'll order and test Jensen and vintage tone (jensen look big, may not be easy to fit into). I'm curious to hear the difference with Mundorf S/G/O may be I'll like the change. I would have liked to try amphom as i read several good comments on them but they're too big.
   
  If I didn't yet installed Vcap cutf on input I'll try Clarity MR caps without Mundorf s/g/o on c11 : as Robert mentionned recently they may not be compatible. They're both widely opened (still more MR caps, with both opened trebles), and s/g/o sound a bit dry/digital compared to vcap cutf as I remember.


----------



## robeeert1

Mako, I haven't tried CuTF on C11. Jupiter VT does color the sound before it burns-in. Later we have very dynamic and expressive sound (in my case) not colored at all.
  This is cheap, very good cap that's why I suggest you to try it.
  It my opinion it surpasses Mundorf SGIO, Jensen Copper PIO, FT3 Russian, Wima MkP4 and many more.
  You can spoil the sound by one cap and c11 is a perfect example to do that. 
  Mundorfs are digital sounding caps to my ears.
   
  I wish you would configure your DAC as you like the best, now you see it is not easy job.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *robeeert1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Mundorfs are digital sounding caps to my ears.


 
   
  And you certainly wouldn't be wrong. Despite all their qualities from what I remember they're a bit rough with lack of softness and naturalness.
   
  If Jupiter VT don't colour the sound I really don't see what can be a "vintage tone". How long do you recommend to burn them in ?
   
  It's not that easy to find the proper synergy to achieve the best sound but it's fun (I don't have enough time to do it though). And you did a very good job till now with ioserica, kimchee and the others, I mostly followed your recommendations except some parts and it's very good.
   
  A1 is a bit cleaner & right than my havana (i'll try to correct this) but on both I feel a lack of transparency, extension (treble mainly) and too round/slow basses, that's what I would mainly like to improve. 2 first ones are characteristics of NOS dacs though.


----------



## mako44

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *loserica* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The two capacitors on the input section (0,01 uF) are very important and I haven't the slightest doubt that not doing their job (for hundred percent..)


 
   
  I don't understand what you mean by you don't doubt they're "not doing their job" ? You mean your cutf caps on input are not burnt in enough or doesn't give their potential because 0.22 vccap cutf is not burnt in yet ? I don't understand very well. According to your previous comments vcap here are a good improvement.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I don't understand what you mean by you don't doubt they're "not doing their job" ? You mean your cutf caps on input are not burnt in enough or doesn't give their potential because 0.22 vccap cutf is not burnt in yet ? I don't understand very well. According to your previous comments vcap here are a good improvement.


 
   
  Actually they have about six or seven hundred hours, they are certainly burnt. Sorry because I expressed incoherently... just remember that: get your 0,01uF CuTf for input without any retention! They are very suitable here, not "good" improvement, very good!


----------



## kimchee411

If anybody's looking for 47uF Black Gates I have several 47/160 VK for sale - $25 shipped each.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,All just in case any of you are looking for some
 WBT 0210-Ag RCA "Next Gen" Pure Silver, Female Jack PAIR ,   
  On spacial at parts connection http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9724.html


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Hi,All just in case any of you are looking for some
> WBT 0210-Ag RCA "Next Gen" Pure Silver, Female Jack PAIR ,
> On spacial at parts connection http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9724.html


 

 They are definitely some of the best connectors for Havana! We felt the change in sound for the first moment of listening. At $100 they are one of the best upgrades in that value price (top 5 or something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, after CuTF for input, tubes, japanese K-grade chips, and probably R-core&Shinkoh tantalum resistors..)


----------



## kusanagi

Hi, I'm looking for an 2nd Havana DAC. Anyone here want to sell ? Please shoot me a PM. Thanks


----------



## mako44

Hi all, so I gave back Total Dac A1 last week but couldn't post a message before as I was away. So while I'd say my Havana had slightly more air and better separation of instruments, A1 is a bit cleaner, right and precise than my havana, on my mind that's where the differences are. A1 is slightly more fluent and especially provides a faster/tighter bass. At the beginning I thought he had more informations but in fact I think it may be a bit more dynamics, and may be some small other things I don't precisely identify. The result is that my havana hurts a little bit more ears whereas A1 is slightly more liquid and natural sounding. But keep in mind it was really subtle : I mainly heard it by direct comparison and even if most of the time I slightly prefered A1 I'm not sure at all I would be abble to identify each dac on blind comparisons. However may be on another hifi system differences would have been bigger, audio monitors or high end speakers would have helped to know. It wouldn't have been night & day though on my mind : may be a bit more precision, a bit more something...
   
  I've been surpised that both dacs were so close from each others. I think my hifi system showed some limits to make more detailed comparisons, so I think I'll change the only 2 flaws I see (and I knew) :
   
  - change my Qed coax cables (dac -> amp) which are correct but not high end (http://www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-signature-audio-cable-1m-p-2106.html) by very good, neutral & transparent ones
  - change my usb/spdif converter by a better one, may be audiophilleo + pure power or something like this. Art legato looks good too but is limited to 44.1 khz.
   
  I have the impression it becomes necessary now to really appreciate changes in micro details, position of instruments, attacks and so on. I already knew that, the only thing is that I don't want my system to be too much transparent as I'm afraid more recordings will then become unhearable or worse to listen to. Which is always frustrating and a below-average performance as it's supposed to give more pleasure with music. However I think my converter and coax cables don't allow me to appreciate changes/improvements, so it worths trying.


----------



## Pingfloid

I am selling my upgraded Havana, including Bendix 6385 and other tubes.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/657908/mhdt-havana-dac-improved-with-high-quality-components-bendix-6385-others
   
  I love this DAC, but I recently find myself dedicating more time playing and writing my own music than listening music from others. I plan to buy an Audio Interface with good Microphone Preamplifiers and Analog to Digital Converters, probably the RME Fireface UCX.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





pingfloid said:


> I am selling my upgraded Havana, including Bendix 6385 and other tubes.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/657908/mhdt-havana-dac-improved-with-high-quality-components-bendix-6385-others
> 
> I love this DAC, but I recently find myself dedicating more time playing and writing my own music than listening music from others. I plan to buy an Audio Interface with good Microphone Preamplifiers and Analog to Digital Converters, probably the RME Fireface UCX.


 
   
  @Pingfloid,
  When I see an ad that sells Havana, I feel something in my heart that throbs,.. because we have dedicated to many session changes with this DAC.
  Yours should sound great for asking price! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wish you success in sales and in the work that you propose it.


----------



## s1rrah

pingfloid said:


> I am selling my upgraded Havana, including Bendix 6385 and other tubes.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/657908/mhdt-havana-dac-improved-with-high-quality-components-bendix-6385-others
> 
> I love this DAC, but I recently find myself dedicating more time playing and writing my own music than listening music from others. I plan to buy an Audio Interface with good Microphone Preamplifiers and Analog to Digital Converters, probably the RME Fireface UCX.




Oh man... I would love to get this ... not sure though...have to check finances. More later...


----------



## mako44

Looking for usb/spdif converters for havana I felt on this page, the guy changed a part of the metal case by wood, it looks nice, i don't know if it improves the sound though : https://sites.google.com/site/computeraudioorg/mdht-havana-dac-modifications
   

   
   
  I also read a discussion on audiogon where a havana owner changed the feets of the case for high end ones and he heard many improvements. He bought very expensive ones (350$) but gave a link for 100 euros ones which should give good results too. I don't find the page back unfortunately.
   
   
  Regarding me I think I'm going to order vcap cutf for input now as I still don't know if I buy an usb/spdif converter or wait for Munich's fair in may where some new streamers should be presented. I would have prefered to set up my hifi system before making further changes to my havana but I'm not patient enough...


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> I also read a discussion on audiogon where a havana owner changed the feets of the case for high end ones and he heard many improvements. He bought very expensive ones (350$) but gave a link for 100 euros ones which should give good results too. I don't find the page back unfortunately.


 
   
  I do not know what to say about it. We are very pleased with the quality of the sound provided by this DAC. In some ways it is possible to exaggerate the importance of various changes. Personally I don't think they can compare with the replacement of some capacitors (for example: Black Gate in the digital section, or CuTF on the input/output sections), or with the replacement of tubes, chips, conectors...


----------



## audiojan

Looking for a good CD transport for my new Havana Balanced. (yes, the antiquated CD is still alive...). For some reason, I've always loved top loading transports (just seems to be less moving parts). Woo Audio WTP-1 looks amazing, but not for sale yet. What about Aune Cyclone? Or if I could find a Stello CDT-1, I would be happy...
   
  Any other transports I should be looking at? Budget of $1k, but can do up and down as needed (like most people, would prefer down..)


----------



## mako44

Do you absolutely need a cd player or just looking for a drive ? If only a drive I suggest you the Squeezebox touch (still available at 250-300 euros) : it's a good drive with better ps and/or audio fidelity mods. I can't recommend cd players which are good drives as well to you as I don't know well these products.
   
  Quote: 





loserica said:


> I do not know what to say about it. We are very pleased with the quality of the sound provided by this DAC. In some ways it is possible to exaggerate the importance of various changes. Personally I don't think they can compare with the replacement of some capacitors (for example: Black Gate in the digital section, or CuTF on the input/output sections), or with the replacement of tubes, chips, conectors...


 
   
  Certainly not, I would think it deal with same improvements than changing connectors (rca, bnc...) by high end ones but may be on a lower level : may be better precision, 3d soundstage, micro details... For 100 euros can worth a try, for 300 it's risky.


----------



## audiojan

Yes, definitely need a CD player. Has lots and lots of them and I don't want to add them to a drive. Cal me old fashioned, but I actually like being able to touch the media (and that's why I love records...)


----------



## audiojan

First time I had time to spend some serious time with the Havana and my jaw will hurt tomorrow from this big grin... Live recordings sound, well, live! First time I've ever heard digital sound like my analog rig... Impressed!!!


----------



## audiojan

Ok, so I've decided to kind of blow the budget... It'll be a CEC TL1. Heard that transport a few years back with Thiel CS7.2 driven by some very large (and I'm certain ultra expensive) VTL's. It was truly glorious and if the CEC can only bring me a small step closer to that, I'll be all smiles (it's already sounding amazing just with the Havana!)


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





audiojan said:


> Ok, so I've decided to kind of blow the budget... It'll be a CEC TL1. Heard that transport a few years back with Thiel CS7.2 driven by some very large (and I'm certain ultra expensive) VTL's. It was truly glorious and if the CEC can only bring me a small step closer to that, I'll be all smiles (it's already sounding amazing just with the Havana!)


 
   


 CEC TL1 is one of the best world's transports. I've been thinking to get it for myself, too.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,All some findings on Bendix 6385 tubes, i will start by saying not all tubes are equal someone in a past post had made a comment about a 1964 Bendix sounding a bit itch in the vocals. I purchased a 1964 Nos Bendix did not like it lack of bass vocals where just not sweet in fact the Bendix 2C51 sounded better and more bass.
  All was forgiven when my 1955 Red Bendix arrived as this has it all full bass great detail full vocals a fantastic tube very happy.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





loserica said:


> quote:
> 
> "<<Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark (25 days). It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours (50 days). You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon. During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages.
> 
> One you reach the 400 hour mark (16 days), you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me...>>"


 
   
  ..back on an old issues which refers to the 0,22 V-Cap CuTF capacitor:
   
  I want to confirm what is write here and to draw attention about CuTF burning-in (I am referring on especially to the 0,22uF capacitance). This capacitor is burning-in extremely hard on this position!! Considering that, I perceive increasingly better what is narrated here about sound effects: the bass is quick and firm, the midrange are coherent and reliable; the highs extended with a great sense of air; a wide, spacious prezentation as well. And last but not least, is apparent a clear improvement in the texture (realistically). 
  Ok. I estimate that CuTF have about 900 hours of burning-in...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 In the range which is marked with four houndred >> eight/nine houndred hours, their sound is changing a lot from one week to another, and only gradually you realize what they prepare. I would say it is extremely annoying to listen to in the meantime. These capacitors are for those who want to exercise the patience!


----------



## robeeert1

I am selling my upgraded Havana.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/661537/mhdt-havana


----------



## mako44

Regarding the very low price of Vintage Jupiter cap and the huge burning in time period of vcap cutf I think I'll try Vintage Tone Jupiter on c11 and vcap cutf on c9-c10 only first. It would give me another possible improvement after if I need as i think vcap cutf should bring some extra improvements compared to Vintage Tone. But it seems more logical to try Jupiter on c11 first because of price and burning in.
   
  I'm still patienting to find a better no-cd drive before though (streamer, audio pc...). 
   
  @Robert : you're selling your havana after all that work on it and all your experiments ? I know it was also a hobby but according to your comments you like it, I'm surprised. You found something better ?


----------



## robeeert1

Mako44 I liked my modded Havana very much. It sounded really great.
  I finished my new project based on TDA1541A chip. I've been waiting for chassis and Vcaps CuTF yet.
  I didn't need two DACs, decided to sell one.
   
  First minutes of working my new babe.


----------



## mako44

It looks very nice, the conception is completely yours ? 
   
   
  2 rcore ! This is heatsinks near Elna caps ? It sounds better than modded havana even without vcap cutf ?


----------



## robeeert1

Quote: 





mako44 said:


> It looks very nice, the conception is completely yours ?
> 
> 
> 2 rcore ! This is heatsinks near Elna caps ? It sounds better than modded havana even without vcap cutf ?


 
   
  Board is taken from analogmetric, my choice is what components are used.
  It sounds different than Havana.
   
  Yes ,there are heatsinks near the black gates and elna.
  [size=medium]Built-in seven independent regulation circuits for dedicated power supply to each block[/size]


----------



## loserica

Havana sounds absolutely great with the full 0,22uF CuTF burning-in!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am absolutely convinced that CuTF is worth every penny for total upgrade. Who does not believe me should listen the full-upgraded Havana to understand what I want to express. It sounds special indeed.


----------



## che15

Does anyone know where I can get my balanced Havana modded?
Thanks


----------



## robeeert1

Costs of modding balanced Havana will be very high due to more components to change.
  4 x output capacitors, 2 x tubes, 4 x chips.
  Of course you can do some modds, but fully modded will cost you a fortune, not worth it.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,All question about PCM56P chips, i have just replaced my chips today with PCM56P K.
  What is it that i am supposed to hear?
   
  Because one thing i have noticed straight away is that the vocals do not sit as forward as they did before still there but just a little bit back. Or are my ears just playing tricks and i need to get used to the new chips?


----------



## kimchee411

Can't recall exactly the changes but you definitely need to let them burn in.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Can't recall exactly the changes but you definitely need to let them burn in.


 

 As was thinking that as i posted.


----------



## robeeert1

Are you sure the chips you purchased are genuine K from Japan?


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





robeeert1 said:


> Are you sure the chips you purchased are genuine K from Japan?


 

 Yes there out of a CD players. An unused CD player. I have two sets one from Japan one from Korea.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Yes there out of a CD players. An unused CD player. I have two sets one from Japan one from Korea.


 

 Just went back and had a listen been running now for around 3 hours sounds better then when i first switched on.


----------



## redcat2

Ok,Well i have as you all no replaced the PCM56P with K chips the ones i have put in are Korea 48 hours of burn in not happy, so i have pulled them out and replaced them with Japan K chips.
   
  HAPPY DAYS, the sound is back but better cannot wight for burn in, straight off more bass more highs and i little wider sound stage vocals back up front where they should be not sitting back like they where. I am a happy bunny once again.
   
  Just goes to prove a point with this DAC should only change one thing at a time so you can see what is going on.


----------



## redcat2

Story of upgrades so fair and what difference it made and things that happened, first things i changed where the Russian micro C13,C14 very straight forward, the sound changed in that the sharp some times hard top end smoothed out the highs where nicer to listen to.
  Next thing i changed was the Jupiter HT Round bees wax 2.2uf x 600vdc some strange things happened with these, when i first switched back on the Dac the tube would burn very bright like a torch been switched on and then die back down to normal after 5 seconds, what happened as time went by on burn in around 350 hours it did not do this any more and just would switch on as normal, i put this down first time switch as capacitors breaking in.
  Sound wise i love them, on a personal not i did notice a difference at 100 hours and then around 300 hours and then around 450 hours where they seem to settle in to a set sound.Difference in many ways more bass more highs more space in the music and the sound is smooth as silk and i can here a lot more detail in every way.
  PCM56P-K chip what a pain in the ass this is to change when you have a capacitor the size of a Jupiter HT, slowly does it when taken out it tuck me around 2 hours yes that is correct, as i tried  both the japan chips and the Korea where just crap , Japan chips where the best these did open up the sound more detail and more tight focused bass and better image.
  One interesting thing that has happened the Tube 6835 bendix is at this stage not the best sounding tube , it is the 2C51 bendix? I think this will change with the next upgrade which i will be doing some time in the next week which will be the Resistors Tantalum & i think at the same time Clarity Cap ESA Range polypropylene 0.22uf 630vdc.
  I have all the parts here for a full upgrades power section, Schottky Diodes C3D02060F Elna ROB TONEREX, just taking me time so i can get a good feel of what works and does not work, will take some photos latter in the week.
  One more thing soldering, oh those little bunny's have solder from both sides which is a pain as when you go to remove a part the hole will fill with solder, do not put the end of the solder iron in the hole you mite over heat the track, get your self a set of solder tools.


----------



## Llloyd

Hey guys,
   
  Long thread here and I've tried searching around but it's a little tough, maybe someone can point me in the right direction.  I've been considering upgrading my havana for a long time, but I figured before I do that I would try new chips before I do that at the very least, if in fact swapping to PCM56P-K chips makes the havana competitive with higher level DACs for the little money it costs for the chips. I would much rather give that a shot.
   
  Could someone kindly point me to,  or summarize some of the differences between the stock chip and the K chip, I know there are different opinions on the manufacturer of the chips, so just a generalization. Increased detail and extension with the same havana sound would suit me really well. I do like my havana just fine but I feel I'm missing out on the next level of detail.
   
  Thank you very much.


----------



## kimchee411

You're not going to get anything huge out of the chip upgrades.  If my memory serves me correctly, the differences are somewhat subtle, but surely noticeable.  A little more extension and definition, not a whole lot of increase in detail, more "presence" and refined textures.  Start with the cheap Malaysian K grades and see what you think.  Going Japanese K grade at a price premium will get you maybe the difference J to Malaysian K does, maybe less.
   
  The biggest thing with this DAC is the output caps.  That is #1 in my opinion, but it responds well to pretty much every change.  Well, either that or the tube, but the tube is a given, I think.
   
  I see you're in the Bay Area.  You can try both of my heavily modded Havanas before you head down this road if you want.  No point in investing the effort if the end result isn't good enough.  PM me if you're interested.


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> You're not going to get anything huge out of the chip upgrades.  If my memory serves me correctly, the differences are somewhat subtle, but surely noticeable.  A little more extension and definition, not a whole lot of increase in detail, more "presence" and refined textures.  Start with the cheap Malaysian K grades and see what you think.  Going Japanese K grade at a price premium will get you maybe the difference J to Malaysian K does, maybe less.
> 
> The biggest thing with this DAC is the output caps.  That is #1 in my opinion, but it responds well to pretty much every change.  Well, either that or the tube, but the tube is a given, I think.


 
   
  ...and after the output caps, the input capacitors and the 0,22 uF value which is in accordance with the 0,001uF (0,01uF) are also important for the maximum quality. In my case, V-Cap CuTF transformed Havana into something really special (but the burning process of 0,22uF value is lenghty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). and also, Black Gate electrolytics; they are better than Elna Silmic. It is incredible how this humble DAC  (as it was in the beginning) has been transformed into something so serious, with so much weight in sound. It's impressive how much has evolved in details, sound texture, resolution and stage presentation.


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





loserica said:


> ...and after the output caps, the input capacitors and the 0,22 uF value which is in accordance with the 0,001uF (0,01uF) are also important for the maximum quality. In my case, V-Cap CuTF transformed Havana into something really special (but the burning process of 0,22uF value is lenghty
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  In the end how much did all of your mods cost, I would be find putting less than $200 into it to improve the dynamics and resolution. Any more than that and I will just trade or sell the havana for something different I think. There's a lot of good options in the DAC market right now for under 1k USD.  More of the same would work really well for me though. I already like the stock havana.
   
  I've almost had it for a year now. I did roll the tubes a bit though since mine came second hand with 5 spare tubes. I felt the stock tube was quite bad and had the bad, generic "tubey" sound, overly warm, overly smoothed out, loss of detail and sharpness etc..


----------



## loserica

Quote: 





llloyd said:


> In the end how much did all of your mods cost, I would be find putting less than $200 into it to improve the dynamics and resolution. Any more than that and I will just trade or sell the havana for something different I think. There's a lot of good options in the DAC market right now for under 1k USD.  More of the same would work really well for me though. I already like the stock havana.


 
   
  All upgrades cost me about 1,3k usd (only the price components) and if you ask me if it was worth the money, I answer that fully deserved. When you put in it Black Gate & V-Cap CuTF (to the critical section) the sound changes radically.
*@ kimchee411* made comparisons with DACs at the same level of price and even over and was fascinated by the Havanas performance. I don't want to influence anyone in this regard, especially as the financial effort is considerable..For me Havana became the desired DAC in terms of refinement and musicality.


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





loserica said:


> All upgrades cost me about 1,3k usd (only the price components) and if you ask me if it was worth the money, I answer that fully deserved. When you put in it Black Gate & V-Cap CuTF (to the critical section) the sound changes radically.
> *@ kimchee411* made comparisons with DACs at the same level of price and even over and was fascinated by the Havanas performance. I don't want to influence anyone in this regard, especially as the financial effort is considerable..For me Havana became the desired DAC in terms of refinement and musicality.


 
   
  Yeah, I'm glad that worked out for you and it sounds awesome. I'm just not in the market for that sort of investment haha. I don't need that extreme of an improvement tbh. Maybe I'll just start with the chips and see where that gets me and if I don't approve that could be the end of it. I will probably just buy a concero dac to replace my havana. It seems like a very good value to me.


----------



## mako44

you can have a look at Teac ud 501 as it's also a good value reputedly, while not sounding at all like havana dac : more clear, transparent, neutral...But a good bargain Under 1000 euros.
   
  And by the way, it's far more expensive but it can interest someone, I read many good things about Metrum Hex dac for this summer, especially with usb which seems very well thought to avoid jitter.


----------



## mink70

Hey, does anyone know whether the Havana still being manufactured? And is the company still in business? I feel like I haven't seen or heard anything from them in a long while.


----------



## Llloyd

mink70 said:


> Hey, does anyone know whether the Havana still being manufactured? And is the company still in business? I feel like I haven't seen or heard anything from them in a long while.


 
  
 They've released a few new products. I think it's just ALO stopped selling their products.
  
http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/order.htm
  
 Havana "in stock"


----------



## mako44

Did you notice it's possible to play 24 bits files with havana ? This week I was listening to several albums, and looking at specs of the playing track I noticed it was a 24 bits/96 khz recording. I must say that I use a usb/spdif converter and havana alone can't play these files (the player refuses) but I'm surprise the dac accepts to read 24 bit files when a converter is plugged in.
  
 May be it's resampled in 16 bits when arriving to the dac, I don't know.


----------



## s1rrah

You are correct, I think ... even though you are sending it a 24bit input, it only sees 16bit ... I remember this about the Havana when I had it too ...
  
 Still enjoying my vanilla Stockholm, BTW ... haven't found any reason to upgrade and probably won't (unless a modded Havana comes up for sale, in which case I might have to get it) ...


----------



## Llloyd

This is how I was taught to do it for best results with a redbook dac. There was a thread on here at some point I actually don't remember the reason for it anymore. I just know it's best to have a locked stream of 16 bit so things don't get converted around too much.


----------



## s1rrah

Have any of you seen this diagram at the MHDT Labs page?
  
 It would seem to indicate that their are two new tube stage DACs in the works, the "Atlantis" and the "Pagoda."  Unlike the Havana and the Stockholm's 16bit output, these will have 20bit and 24bit outputs respectively. Both still maintaining the R2R NOS architecture and both, like the Stockholm2 will have "discrete transistors" and will utilize different DAC's than the Havana and Stockholm.
  
 Interesting:
  
MHDT DAC Families
  
..


----------



## M3NTAL

Pagoda sure looks interesting!


----------



## robeeert1

m3ntal said:


> Pagoda sure looks interesting!


 
 Pagoda looks interesting indeed. PCM1704 is a very nice sounding DAC chip.
 What is the price of this baby?
  
 Any photos of internal parts?


----------



## s1rrah

robeeert1 said:


> Pagoda looks interesting indeed. PCM1704 is a very nice sounding DAC chip.
> What is the price of this baby?
> 
> Any photos of internal parts?


 
  
 I believe these are DACs that are "in the works" as they aren't listed on their page yet ...
  
 I'm curious about the pricing as well.


----------



## jkorten

robeeert1 said:


> Pagoda looks interesting indeed. PCM1704 is a very nice sounding DAC chip.
> What is the price of this baby?
> 
> Any photos of internal parts?


 
  
 I bought the Steeplechase for $399, which sounded so nice in my non-primary system (country house), I bought the Pagoda to see if it sounds better than my Rega DAC in my main listening system. The Pagoda cost me $1350. Still on the less expensive side of DACs. I now have the MYTEK192 (for recording purposes - allows capture of PCM data from the MYTEK ADC), the Rega and the MHDT. Should be an interesting shootout after I break in the MHDT. I'll report back!


----------



## s1rrah

jkorten said:


> I bought the Steeplechase for $399, which sounded so nice in my non-primary system (country house), I bought the Pagoda to see if it sounds better than my Rega DAC in my main listening system. The Pagoda cost me $1350. Still on the less expensive side of DACs. I now have the MYTEK192 (for recording purposes - allows capture of PCM data from the MYTEK ADC), the Rega and the MHDT. Should be an interesting shootout after I break in the MHDT. I'll report back!


 
  
 Where is there information online regarding the Pagoda? I couldn't find a product page for it.
  
 ???


----------



## jkorten

s1rrah said:


> Where is there information online regarding the Pagoda? I couldn't find a product page for it.
> 
> ???


 
 You must email them and ask them to send you a paypal invoice. They build to order, so you may have a week or two to wait.
  
 I don't think this is a full time company for them, not sure.


----------



## bdh

I would think it would be worthwhile for MHDT to ask one of the regulars here if they could lend them one of each for an in-depth review.  How many people have bought a Havana due to this thread?  How many of us would be willing to upgrade if we knew there was a significantly better sounding model, and we knew the different sonic characteristics of the different models:
  

Havana 2Stockholm 2AtlantisPagodaSteeplechase


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Need moar Pagoda info, seems legit...


----------



## jkorten

bdh said:


> I would think it would be worthwhile for MHDT to ask one of the regulars here if they could lend them one of each for an in-depth review.  How many people have bought a Havana due to this thread?  How many of us would be willing to upgrade if we knew there was a significantly better sounding model, and we knew the different sonic characteristics of the different models:
> 
> 
> Havana 2Stockholm 2AtlantisPagodaSteeplechase


 
  
 Well I am not that regular, but do have both the Steeplechase and the Pagoda. These two models by the way are the only ones that put out 24 bit resolution that is converted to analog. The Havana and Stockhom are 16 bit output format. So those are relegated to bluebook CD playback in my opinion. The Pagoda and Steeplechase are HD format capable (192kHz 24 bit). So I'd think that would be a worthy comparison. As I mentioned earlier, I have also a Rega DAC and a Mytek192. So I'm thinking of having a DAC shootout and my two audiophile buddies over to help discern differences and render in words. I have a fairly revealing system. Are there other qualifications for reviewing?


----------



## robeeert1

jkorten said:


> Well I am not that regular, but do have both the Steeplechase and the Pagoda.


 
  
 Could you please let us see these DACs posting here some photos?
  
 thanks


----------



## bdh

I guess my point was, how much better is the Pagoda than the original Havana?  Just because it supports true 24-bit resolution does not mean the sound, sound stage, etc. is better, since the DAC chips and presumably other parts are different between the two.  I would hope so, but that's no guarantee.  And how does it compare to the Atlantis, which while 'only' 20-bit, it uses yet another type of DAC chip.


----------



## jkorten

bdh said:


> I guess my point was, how much better is the Pagoda than the original Havana?  Just because it supports true 24-bit resolution does not mean the sound, sound stage, etc. is better, since the DAC chips and presumably other parts are different between the two.  I would hope so, but that's no guarantee.  And how does it compare to the Atlantis, which while 'only' 20-bit, it uses yet another type of DAC chip.


 
  
 My guess is that for bluebook CDs they'd sound fairly similar. I believe they both use the same discrete IV converter and the pics on their website show similar layout to the Pagoda. But what do we know without a schematic?


----------



## jkorten

Looks like they've added a heat sink to the LM317 and laid out the parts in a more symmetrical way on the Pagoda.


----------



## mako44

I finally tried 0.22uf Jupiter Vintage Tone on c11 instead of Mundorf Silver Gold Oil (6 months later it's never too late...), I'm surprised how it sounds silkier compared to Mundorf S/G/O. A bit warmer but more natural on my mind (not regarding timbres though) : music sounds liquid when it was harsh with Mundorf. Surprising because they cost 20x less... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Jupiter is less shaded and may be a bit thinner than mundorf (less micro détails or body ?), may be technically inferior so but more pleasant to listen to on my system for the moment because of this analogic sounding property. It only has 1 hour burnin in but anyway I'm impressed by the natural and liquid sound it brings instead of Mundorf.
  
  
 I Wonder if I won't grow tired of their slightly colored sound however with the time...


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> I finally tried 0.22uf Jupiter Vintage Tone on c11 instead of Mundorf Silver Gold Oil (6 months later it's never too late...), I'm surprised how it sounds silkier compared to Mundorf S/G/O. A bit warmer but more natural on my mind (not regarding timbres though) : music sounds liquid when it was harsh with Mundorf. Surprising because they cost 20x less...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 V-cap CuTF will be better than Jupiter, but it is more expensive indeed. CuTF of 0,22uF needs a huge burning-in period (above 1.200 hours, but I estimate even 2.000 hours!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). V-Cap CuTF will sound better at the level of transparency, image and resolution compared with Jupiter VT. I inclined to think that it is one of the best solutions here (on c11 place).
 I received for several days seven Rike S-Cap PIO capacitors (paper in oil aluminium foil - 0,1uF/600VDC). They are very large compared to Auricap. I will come back with impressions in about a week. I'll find out then what happens if I change all 0,1uF capacitors, whether it will be a revelation in sound or a disappointment.. I hope to get more texture and liquidity and also better dynamics and depth. We'll see.


----------



## mako44

I ordered 3x 0.1uf vcap cutf for c9-c10 & c12 I should receive them in a couple of days. However for c11 I'm waiting to see Jupiter vintage tone issues. Compared to Mundorf SGO the music is slightly simplified, for example with mundorf live recordings were really alive, atmospheres in general were really great, with Jupiter I have a little bit less the feeling to be there. Background is less black and some micro informations are missing however it's very sweet (in the good way) and more pleasant to listen to because mundorf were a bit harsh sometimes and the listening tiring on my system.
  
 Jupiter VT burnt in only 5-6 hours for the moment so it may improve nicely, even if it's very pleasant yet.


----------



## kimchee411

mako I used Jupiter VT before switching to CuTF and I know what you mean about their sound.  It is pleasant and really has a "vintage" tone to it, but ultimately they did not sound open and visceral enough for my bigger room compared to CuTF.
  
 If you want to try another cap I suggest Intertechnik Audyn Cap True Copper.  I just went from ClarityCap MR to Mundorf SGIO to the Audyn True Copper in my speaker crossovers and I am kind of in love with it.  It is a very musical sounding cap with SET-like bloom and body to it, but very good separation, soundstage, and detail retrieval as well as tons of air.  In my mind it gives the V-Cap CuTF a run for its money.  Maybe not quite as ultimately resolving or clean (the CuTF is rather pristine), but maybe more natural.  I kind of think of it as a Duelund CAST Jr. at a much more reasonable cost.  I think the sound is somewhere between the Duelund and Jupiter HT Beeswax, which is what I use in 2nd Havana for 0.22uF.  The caps are huge though!  Substantially bigger than Clarity MR, but not has big as the dynamite-sized Duelunds.
  
 I tried the Audyn True Copper after reading Tony Gee's eval of it in the infamous Humble Homemade Hifi list and I think his description is pretty dead on (actually I agree with his assessments on all the caps I've tried from that list).


----------



## mako44

Thanks for your suggestion Kimchee I ordered one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 A mix between Duelund and Jupiter HT looks really seducing... Jupiter Vintage tone would be perfect if I was not slighly frustrated sometimes : my dac is very pleasant to listen to with it but I'd like to improve lack of atmospheres and it's a bit lean too... I'll compare both and see if I keep Jupiter VT or go on with Audyn.
  
 I could also try Clarity MR but I suspect it would be too open and may be not that musical like with Mundorf SGIO. Jupiter VT has the quality to let the music flows (with a sweet mellow sound), with a bit more body and openess it would be really nice on my system.


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> A mix between Duelund and Jupiter HT looks really seducing... Jupiter Vintage tone would be perfect if I was not slighly frustrated sometimes : my dac is very pleasant to listen to with it but I'd like to improve lack of atmospheres and it's a bit lean too... I'll compare both and see if I keep Jupiter VT or go on with Audyn.
> I could also try Clarity MR but I suspect it would be too open and may be not that musical like with Mundorf SGIO. Jupiter VT has the quality to let the music flows (with a sweet mellow sound), with a bit more body and openess it would be really nice on my system.


 


kimchee411 said:


> I tried the Audyn True Copper after reading Tony Gee's eval of it in the infamous Humble Homemade Hifi list and I think his description is pretty dead on (actually I agree with his assessments on all the caps I've tried from that list).


 
  
 I had the same source of inspiration when I bought the Rike S-Caps. I oscillated between Audyn True Copper and Rike for 0,1uF capacity. Both are rated at the same level of quality in these reviews. I will test in the future for my curiosity on C11 place both 0,22uF capacitors to see what is still better and compare them with CuTF...I would also like a Duelund Cast PIO.


----------



## robeeert1

mako44 said:


> Jupiter VT has the quality to let the music flows (with a sweet mellow sound), with a bit more body and openess it would be really nice on my system.


 
  
  
 Jutiper VT is one of the best solutions there, it lets the music flow like Makk44 says. I put there several caps and  finally Jupiter VT was the best one.


----------



## mako44

You're right that's the most pleasant version of my dac with this cap, I'd like to test Audyn True copper to see if i find the same balance but a tad further technically.
  
 I liked it with Jupiter HT on c12 too and neutral cap on c11 (incredible voices/medium, wonderful presence feeling, magic & sensual sound) but a bit too much on the warm side. Would worth a try though : clarity MR on c11 and Jupiter HT on c12 to compare.


----------



## loserica

I replaced today the seven 0,1uF Auricap (400Vdc) capacitors with Rike S-Cap PIO (Paper in Oil Aluminium foil) and I'm surprised in the most positive sense. I can say that Rike are in another level of quality. Notable differences appears on dynamics, resolution, micro-details and texture. The sound is very coherent now with a consistent depth and a darker black background. The S-Caps are more lively and open compared with Auricaps and give a touch of liquidity and higher refinement (and it sounds more natural of course). It is what I wanted so much. With Auricap the sound was somewhat dry, and for me lacked the emotion. I guessed right when I thought which were the weaknesses in this DAC. Auricap was undoubtedly the weak link compared with other components upgraded. 
 Rike has a rich texture and tonality. High frequencies are better highlighted, more present, more extensive and a with a superior decay.
 The difference is in my opinion considerable, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I felt something similar when I changed the output capacitors OIMP with V-Cap CuTF, I mean something so notable. 
 So, after the first impression I can say honest that I LOVE the sound of these capacitors (I mean Rike S-Cap)!! The change in the sound, especially on the resolution side is impressive. All this after just a few hours by running...
  
 I will come back with pictures this weekend.


----------



## mako44

I saw these caps have good comments but i never heard of them before you mentionned them, happy to see you're satisfied of the results. This dac will never stop imrpoving ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Did you all changed the stock cap by something else on C5 by the way (auricap or another) ? I ordered an auricap xo because I noticed I still have the stock one here i don't know if it will change anything to the sound.


----------



## che15

I have a balanced Havana , would you guys please guided me on what caps and anything else I can upgrade on it, I love a very detailed but sweet sound none of that harsh sound most DACs are known for.
Thank u so much
And also did u guys installed the caps your selves , I have no experience with soldering.


----------



## mako44

I think we all did it by ourselves but it's very easy most of the time, you just have to desolder and solder the new component : just be patient, careful and have good Tools. However you can break the circuit so you must take care if you don't feel confident enough ask a friend who could do it for you.
  
 I can't tell you what to change on balanced havana but you can start by changing the chip and ouput caps for instance.
  
 On normal havana output caps, input caps, c11 & c12, diodes around the tube and power supply caps are the main reactive points on my mind. Removing stock transformer by a more powerful one is also highly recomended but much more difficult (a pro did it for me).


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> I saw these caps have good comments but i never heard of them before you mentionned them, happy to see you're satisfied of the results. This dac will never stop imrpoving !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I had here before just Auricap, but... I say once again, the difference between Auricap and Rike (for me) it is really signficant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I put some pictures made tonight. Rike S-Cap are huge comparative with Auricap and the stock 0,10uF caps. I can say that they fully deserved the money (about $40/capacitor). Believe me, I would have given even double for this upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (but then maybe I would have opted for CuTF...). However, Havana reacts incredible when changing all 0,10uF with some upper class capacitors. The differences are consistent (to not say huge..) at the level of texture, coherence, imaging, dynamics and resolution. For the first time since I felt this DAC, I perceive what it means "the tube": that warmth and refinement to die for!!
 I'm hundred percent satisfied and highly recommend this upgrade! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 PS: please, do not worry of what you see inside Havana 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but really I didn't have another solution to put them.


----------



## robeeert1

Congratulations mate! The best tweaked Havana on this planet.


----------



## loserica

robeeert1 said:


> Congratulations mate! The best tweaked Havana on this planet.


 

 Thank you, Robert. This isn't a joke: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html..
Rike S-Cap PIO ..."are very coherent, nothing is over high-lighted, they just do all things right. They are clear but never too bright and open things up nicely without any artificial emphasis on certain parts of the spectrum. They have depth that lets you look deep into the recorded information in a very natural and coherent way, seperating the individual instruments of an orchestra in a very convincing manner. Another thing that the Rike Audio S-Caps do well in making the music sound more realistic is dynamics. 
... Compared to the Jupiter Condenser VT Stacked Cryo Capacitors (also an aluminium foil with paper capacitor) the S-Caps are more lively and open. They both give a nice "analogue" feel to the music but the Jupiter sounds a bit muffled, more "old school" if you like. Compared to very high-grade copper foil capacitors the Rike Audio S-Cap could do with a little more richness and tonal colour but then we are talking about capacitors that cost far more. 
In general I consider the Rike Audio S-Cap to be one of the best capacitors I have tested in that it produces acoustic instruments and vocals in a very natural and convincing way, well detailed but never fatiguing. For example an Instanbul Mehmet Sultan 22" ride cymbal sounds like it should: a nice metal "ping" combined with a certain warmth. Piano music comes across very realisticly with a wide dynamic range, full-bodied and open".


----------



## kimchee411

Very nice!  I was debating between the Rike S-Cap and Audyn True Copper at the time as well, but ultimately got the impression that Audyn is warmer and "tubier", which is what I wanted for my speakers.  I'm going to have to queue up the Rike S-Cap 0.01uF upgrade for my main DAC.
  
 I wish Tony Gee would review the V-Cap CuTF already so we can get an even better idea of how others sound by comparison.  The Duelund CAST Cu comparison isn't too helpful because it's head and shoulders above the rest.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Very nice!  I was debating between the Rike S-Cap and Audyn True Copper at the time as well, but ultimately got the impression that Audyn is warmer and "tubier", which is what I wanted for my speakers.  I'm going to have to queue up the Rike S-Cap 0.01uF upgrade for my main DAC.
> 
> I wish Tony Gee would review the V-Cap CuTF already so we can get an even better idea of how others sound by comparison.  The Duelund CAST Cu comparison isn't too helpful because it's head and shoulders above the rest.


 
  
 Yes, this is true about the comparative capacitors test. Something is missing there...CuTF.
 I explored more than a half year with Audyn True Copper, but something seems stopped me. But I am absolutely convinced that I would have liked their sound.


----------



## mako44

loserica said:


>


 
  
 Very nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !  But no way iput them inside my havana when I'm already lacking of room Inside 
  
 If i'd know i would have ordered a 0.22uf audyn AND a Rike-S to compare 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Edit : By the way : I listened to my dac 30 mns this evening, after 30 hours or so of burning in Jupiter VT sounds more incisive and accurate, very nice


----------



## s1rrah

loserica said:


> I had here before just Auricap, but... I say once again, the difference between Auricap and Rike (for me) is really significant
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## loserica

So..after ten hours (pretty soon..), I can say that I never felt before such a substantial differences in sound and which impressed me so much; not even when I changed the chips, all electrolytic caps with Black Gate, not even when I switched to .. V-Cap CuTF 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  and I think it is right now becouse all components are reinforce each others.
 The sound texture seems to move toward something special, and the coherence and separation between instruments are unbelievable (for this DAC). The voice stepped in front and fills up much better on the audible spectrum, being rendered more spacious, more lush, more ample. It is what I call really believable. Voices are large, really large! Substantially increased the resolution also, being felt the finest details and voice inflections. The same thing can i say about imaging and depth.
 Instruments are more articulated and trebles are extended and with a consistent decay. Audition is definitely more relaxed and everywhere there is space and air around, everything is coherent and airy. In a word, with these last changes Havana is a GREAT dac!


----------



## mako44

Must be really great, stop make me dreaming !... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 How are bad recordings however, can you still listen to them with pleasure ? I mean music's must be incredible on good recordings but are all these improvements also ok to listen to common ones ? For example with mundorf sgo it was hardly possible on my system (this cap is too resolving and not sweet enough), with jupiter Vt it's better and I can listen to them with more pleasure (of course you hear the recording is bad but it can be ok).


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> Must be really great, stop make me dreaming !...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 yes, I understand what you say. You will not feel all these issues, I assure you. The key words coming to my mind regarding these capacitors are "friendly", "natural", "lifelike", "beautiful"...
 It is a really pleasure to listen to music on this quality and I say again, I did't expected that Havana reacts so positively to the changing of these 0,10uF capacitors. I mean to say that is well above expectations and for me this upgrade has the greatest impact on the sound quality. Rike are surely a fair deal.


----------



## che15

mako44 said:


> I think we all did it by ourselves but it's very easy most of the time, you just have to desolder and solder the new component : just be patient, careful and have good Tools. However you can break the circuit so you must take care if you don't feel confident enough ask a friend who could do it for you.
> 
> I can't tell you what to change on balanced havana but you can start by changing the chip and ouput caps for instance.
> 
> On normal havana output caps, input caps, c11 & c12, diodes around the tube and power supply caps are the main reactive points on my mind. Removing stock transformer by a more powerful one is also highly recomended but much more difficult (a pro did it for me).



Thank u so much for your help, I don't like ess 32 bit chips, which other ones do u sudgest , do they all work with my balanced Havana ?


----------



## loserica

I think they will work perfectly.


----------



## s1rrah

loserica said:


>


 
  
 That's just pornographic.


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> That's just pornographic.


 
  
 Yes, I know! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have to put a curtain?


----------



## mako44

kimchee411 said:


> If you want to try another cap I suggest Intertechnik Audyn Cap True Copper.


 
  
 Woo thanks for your advice these caps are killers ! I put them in two hours ago I found back mateer/body in the music I was missing as well as space feeling. Piano and voices are really great. If they improve (still more air and trebles) with burning in they have a huge potential. Just a bit dull for the moment but may be it will change with the time.  I'll give more detailed impressions later.


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> Woo thanks for your advice these caps are killers ! I put them in two hours ago I found back mateer/body in the music I was missing as well as space feeling. Piano and voices are really great. If they improve (still more air and trebles) with burning in they have a huge potential. Just a bit dull for the moment but may be it will change with the time.  I'll give more detailed impressions later.


 

 If you put quality film capacitors, you will have a very positive effect for this DAC. Enjoy the sound!


----------



## mako44

After several listenings here what I can say about Audyn True copper : what struck me above all is they are rich, with strong bass and a capacity to immerse yourself into the music.
  
 More in details I'd say mids are dense full of mateer and body, extremes are extended but well controlled (soft highs and firm bass - much more than mundorf sgio regarding bass), lot of air and good separation of instruments, spatious, with a nice space and atmosphere feeling on live recordings. Precision and dynamics are good too. Not the more neutral caps though, they make me think to Jupiter HT but in better.
  
 The sum of all these qualities give you the sensation to be shrouded into the music, they're quite foot tapping.
  
 Jupiter VT are sweeter, I'd say a bit more musical (very subjective concept) because easier to listen to but simplify more the message, mundorf sgio are colder, more tiring and from what I remember a bit rougher (I didn't like them a lot on my system).
  
  
 I just installed vcap cutf on input and c12, let's start for a long long burning in time !


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> After several listenings here what I can say about Audyn True copper : what struck me above all is they are rich, with strong bass and a capacity to immerse yourself into the music.
> 
> I just installed vcap cutf on input and c12, let's start for a long long burning in time !


 
 What about CuTF? what were your first impressions? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The same feeling I have it about S-Cap, compared with Auricap: that capacity to immerse yourself into the music. On the first 50-100 hours of burning, I perceive some roughness in the sound, which is normal. Everything should be clear up over time.


----------



## mako44

My impressions about cutf on input & c12 : I listened to them 5 mns only just after the change and I didn't hear much, it was a bit like before but not surprising it was the same on output.
  
 I let it burn a while and made a new listening after 24 hours and then I immediately heard back a part of the sound of cutf I loved when I put them on ouput. Sweeter than before, cutf removed the dryness of silver mica caps and added some relief to the music. It's now more analogic/natural and slightly more rich than with silver mica.
  
 However the change is less radical than changing a cap on c11, I mean audyn true copper cap on c11 completely transformed the sound of my system, as well as jupiter vintage vt (in a different way), the impact of cutf on input and c12 was less important when I listened after 24 hours. May be because the changes on c11 were with completely different caps (mundorf sgio -> jupiter vt -> audyn true copper). Important though and I love it I wouldn't go back, for the moment I would compare it to shinkoh tantalum résistors upgrade : more refined, more natural but not as dramatic as output for example. And they still have to burn in.
  
  
 Regarding audyn true copper I like them too : they brought lot of richness in music without real defaults. Even if opened it's not the clearest or neutral ones (I mean you can go further in opening with clarity mr or even mundorf sgio for example), I didn't try but think cutf should be slightly more fluent & refined, but it's a nice compromise between details and warmth. I may try your Rike cap too later to compare and see if a more neutral cap fits well too but for the moment I want to go on with them a bit.


----------



## mako44

I'm listening to my previous amp for 2 days, primare I30, and now havana is highly upgraded I clearly understand I hear limitations of my current amp. Even if it's better than Primare, more natural, precise, real with great timbers air and so on, it brings dryness sometimes and a kind of dark character sound, something sterile or slightly harsh especially on some recordings. It's a bit like if a component was broken -but it's not the case-, problem seems to be mainly on low mids.
  
 I'm sure Mundorf and clarity mr highlighted these limitations that's why it was not pleasant on my system.
  
 Compared to it Primare I30 sounds clearly hifi but is more luminous and less harsh/sterile.
  
 I saw my amp is made of sonic craft sonicap and rubycon caps on power supply I wonder if I would be abble to remove these defaults just by swapping these caps with better ones (but without losing its qualities).


----------



## loserica

Hello guys,
  
 I compared Havana with DAC7 (Audio Research). It is capable of higher resolution that better highlights micro-details, it shows music with better extension, articulation of instruments, superior speed and timing (better imaging also).
 I noticed that there is a wealth of information on the low, medium and low-treble frequencies, where Havana is slightly poor in comparison. On the classical music instruments sound more natural with DAC7, I think they are a little closer to how it sound in the reality.
 The sound texture, tonality, well.. have been played roughly similar on both converters, I can say I like both. Yet, DAC7 it sounds more coherent, more homogeneous and a slightly more natural compared with Havana, instruments and the human voices seems more believable and played with more authority.
 The differences aren't big, but noticeable between the two converters.
 (PS: whether Havana hadn't been upgraded in extreme way, it wouldn't have no chance,.. this is clear as daylight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 .even though I said before that Audio Research DAC7 has a more natural tonality and that plays information in a more comprehensive manner compared with Havana (in my system), I still love Havana. I could be happy with any of these, since both converters are capable of refinement and musicality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 At upper-high frequencies I liked maybe more Havana, even if treble were not as detailed compared with DAC7 (I hope I'm not wrong..) , it were all present, reliable and showed clear and with delicacy.


----------



## loserica

I put Havana on sale here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-changed-in-a-very-extreme-way


----------



## jkorten

Wouldn't you think a $3500 DAC should sound better than a $1000 DAC (previous generation too)?
  
 You should compare to their current top of the line (Pagoda) and let's be real, compare to competition up to 2X the price, but 3X?
  
 I think compared to other $1300 DACs the Pagoda is a bargain.


----------



## rosgr63

X2
 One has to compare DACs/gear in the same price range.


----------



## kimchee411

Nothing wrong with comparing gear in different price ranges. I often appreciate such comparisons now as it puts impressions of the cheaper piece into perspective. All too often reviews shower the item with praise, but it is implicitly within the context of its price range. That said I think especially with the highly modded Havana the comparison is valid. I prefer my Havanas to the $4k PWD MkII and even the $5k Berkeley Alpha I and II that I owned. Now I'm curious about the Arc DAC7! Other DACs I've had certainly can do some "audiophile" things better -- finest details, spaciousness, speed, big dynamics -- but texture, timbre, well-articulated harmonics, and toe tapping musicality is where it counts in my book and this little guy does it for me.


----------



## che15

Does any one know of someone who would install caps and replace wires in my balanced Havana , for a fee of course? As well as a new better DAC chip


----------



## jkorten

I would say put your money on the Pagoda first. The amount you'd spend on the Havana will still leave you with a 16 bit playback system in the end.


----------



## loserica

jkorten said:


> Wouldn't you think a $3500 DAC should sound better than a $1000 DAC (previous generation too)?
> You should compare to their current top of the line (Pagoda) and let's be real, compare to competition up to 2X the price, but 3X?
> I think compared to other $1300 DACs the Pagoda is a bargain.


 
 Havana was upgraded with very good components (V-Cap CuTF, Black Gate, Rike S-Cap, WBT conectors,  etc..). Compared with the stock version it was hilarious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I wanted to evaluate how it sounds a highly modified dac  and I tell you frankly, Havana not embarrassed in front of Dac7. On my setup I prefer DAC7 instead Havana, but I decided pretty hard becouse Havana has a relaxed tone, a slightly dark presentation. It has something special in its tonality, indeed.


----------



## kimchee411

jkorten said:


> I would say put your money on the Pagoda first. The amount you'd spend on the Havana will still leave you with a 16 bit playback system in the end.


 
  
 16-bit R-2R NOS DAC has its own sound.  Different, not worse, than 24-bit, and preferred by many.  It is why the Paradisea, Havana, and even MHDT itself were invented, as I understand it.  A 24/192 DAC can be had for much less money than the Havana, but there's a reason this DAC is popular, and can sound even better with chips pulled from CD players that are 20+ years old.


----------



## kimchee411

che15 said:


> Does any one know of someone who would install caps and replace wires in my balanced Havana , for a fee of course? As well as a new better DAC chip


 
  
 Just look up a local electronics repair shop?  It is a very easy job for anyone who uses a soldering iron for a living.  If you don't have anyone in your area, Nick Gowan of True Sound in Campbell, CA, is great and you can ship to them.
  
http://www.tsound.com


----------



## jkorten

But if you want to listen to 192kHz 24 bit, then you would purchase MHDT's Pagoda and still be able to listen to 16 bit 44.1 if you wanted to. Are you saying the R2R of a 16 bit DAC sounds better than a 24 bit R2R DAC?
  
 I believe the term NOS here is used to connote "Non Over Sampling" not "New Old Stock". I don't think they are pulling DAC chips out of old CD players for their production, do you?


----------



## kimchee411

jkorten said:


> But if you want to listen to 192kHz 24 bit, then you would purchase MHDT's Pagoda and still be able to listen to 16 bit 44.1 if you wanted to. Are you saying the R2R of a 16 bit DAC sounds better than a 24 bit R2R DAC?
> 
> I believe the term NOS here is used to connote "Non Over Sampling" not "New Old Stock". I don't think they are pulling DAC chips out of old CD players for their production, do you?


 
  
 No, I'm not saying it sounds better, but I'm not saying it sounds worse, so I wouldn't necessarily "put my money" on the Pagoda.  What I'm saying is that taste comes into play and it's not just the number of bits that matter.  I also didn't know the Pagoda is R-2R, which is cool.  For me, the Havana is proven in matching my preferences and ability to upgrade extensively to become a very high quality DAC.  With the mods it is beyond great for the money, it is flat out great.
  
 Yes, NOS means "Non Over Sampling" but what I was referring to is the Japanese PCM56P-K chips pulled from old CD players that several of us here have found to sound better than more current production Malaysian K grade chips.  Point being that older doesn't mean inferior.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> No, I'm not saying it sounds better, but I'm not saying it sounds worse, so I wouldn't necessarily "put my money" on the Pagoda.  What I'm saying is that taste comes into play and it's not just the number of bits that matter.  I also didn't know the Pagoda is R-2R, which is cool.  For me, the Havana is proven in matching my preferences and ability to upgrade extensively to become a very high quality DAC.  With the mods it is beyond great for the money, it is flat out great.
> Yes, NOS means "Non Over Sampling" but what I was referring to is the Japanese PCM56P-K chips pulled from old CD players that several of us here have found to sound better than more current production Malaysian K grade chips.  Point being that older doesn't mean inferior.


 
 Yep, it's about personal preference and system synergy. Havana sounded good on my electrostatic Stax system but maybe sometimes too relaxed.
 I personally feel the need to revitalize the sound, which can be normal at a time. It's a different approach to implementation and another sound, somewhat complementary to "NOS" dac. Here it is not "_just" _about components and about its quality, ..K-grade Japanese chips are great!! they deserve taken into account when doing an upgrade.
  
 Of some financial considerations, I kept Havana and I put off the replacement with DAC7, although I still have in mind the AR sound. Do not do this if you cannot keep more DACs in your systems! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 That wide sound and beautiful stereo image or excellent bass extension even on headphones. Medium frequencies are extensive and covers the whole spectrum of sound and have that impact, that firmness and strength: very good sound-stage!
 Still, I like something more Havana on treble, it render better high frequencies in the upper range. Here this converter is the king (should note that I haven't felt this before and that only Rike S-Cap capacitors gave me this change on highs in this manner. Before I felt a lack of treble and even V-Cap CuTF after they had over a thousand hours of burning were unable to do so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). It is now a very difficult decision to sell Havana because it has something special in terms of tonality. AR DAC7 was slightly different and it had his own refinement, I must say it sounded so natural in terms of sound texture and very relaxed too..
  
 PS: Havana react so positively to the upgrade of operating system. Now I use OS X Mavericks 10.9 (Apple iMac with ART Legato-I) and as player Pure Music.


----------



## loserica

http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-changed-in-a-very-extreme-way
  
 The price is perfectly justified.


----------



## robeeert1

loserica said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-changed-in-a-very-extreme-way
> 
> The price is perfectly justified.


 

 Why??
  
 It's a bargain price. WOW


----------



## loserica

robeeert1 said:


> Why??
> 
> It's a bargain price. WOW


 
  
 Robert,
 I am very undecided what to do with Havana. Yet I leave it to sale. I'm feel embarrassed asking this price considering that one stock is just slightly cheaper.. I think that someone will realize what components are inside. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Price is lowered, practically less than half compared to how much it cost me. At this money it is difficult to surpass Havana in terms of tonality and refinement.


----------



## BORDELO

Hi,
  
 I'm a new Havana user and i like it very much !!!
 I read the 156 pages of this post and i really want to thank all contributors.
  
 So, i'm going to change the transformer with an R-CORE one.
 could someone tell me where I can buy these connectors ? I don't find them.
 May be a link ?
  
 Thanks very much 
 STEF


----------



## mako44

This one will fit perfectly : http://www.ebay.com/itm/115V-230V-30W-high-quality-Audio-R-Core-Transformer-15V-15V-9V-9V-/130708821508?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item1e6eda5604.
  
 However this is the more difficult change on havana. Don't know if you already did it but it should be better to change output caps first for example.


----------



## BORDELO

Thanks Mako,
  
 I installed chips "K grade" and "Japan Made" and i have a 6385 Bendix 
 I planned to change the outputs caps also.
 Then I would change the transformer.
 What i am looking for are the connectors.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Alexdad54

Does anyone have any info on the MHDT Havana 2?
 It's listed on their website and it's evidently 24bits/192kHz ​capable but uses the same PCM56-J DAC chip....intriguing....
  
 http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt%20dac%20families.htm
 .


----------



## jkorten

alexdad54 said:


> Does anyone have any info on the MHDT Havana 2?
> It's listed on their website and it's evidently 24bits/192kHz ​capable but uses the same PCM56-J DAC chip....intriguing....
> 
> http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt%20dac%20families.htm
> .


 

 That means it will accept 24 bit length data on the input (S/PDIF or USB) but it will truncate it to 16 bit for the analog output section. So the same DAC makes sense it is only a 16 bit playback device. If you are a CD listener then this is no problem and will probably sound the same as the Pagoda. If you are in to hi-res 24 bit 192kHz playback then you should purchase the Pagoda.


----------



## Alexdad54

Ah, got it, thanks!
 I'm intrigued by the Pagoda but can't find any comparative reviews vs. the Havana.
 I love the sound of my Parts Connexion-modded Havana (with V-caps, etc.) and am a bit leery of moving away from that sound but would also love to have high-res capability as I'm not really enamored of the SABRE-based sound of my Oppo 95....


----------



## mako44

bordelo said:


> What i am looking for are the connectors.


 
  
 Good rca plugs cost at least 25 euros, you will get more improvements buying a good cap for the same price for c11 or c12 for example


----------



## kimchee411

bordelo said:


> Thanks Mako,
> 
> I installed chips "K grade" and "Japan Made" and i have a 6385 Bendix
> I planned to change the outputs caps also.
> ...


 
  
 It was kind of a bitch for me to ID these too.  I bought all the necessary Molex terminations and housings from Mouser.  Here's the list from my order:
  
  
538-08-56-0110
08-56-0110
Molex Headers & Wire Housings
CRIMP TERM 22-30 GLD
US HTS: 8536904000 ECCN:EAR99 COO:US
  
538-22-01-3037
22-01-3037
Molex Headers & Wire Housings
HSG 3P W/RAMP/RIBS
US HTS: 8538906000 ECCN:EAR99 COO:US
  
538-08-56-0108
08-56-0108
Molex Headers & Wire Housings
TERMINAL 22-26 BULK
US HTS: 8536904000 ECCN:EAR99 COO:US
  
538-09-50-3041
09-50-3041
Molex Headers & Wire Housings
HSG 4P W/LKG RAMP
US HTS: 8536694040 ECCN:EAR99 COO:US


----------



## BORDELO

A GREAT GREAT thanks Kimchee.
  
 I have already contacted several vendors without finding these famous connectors.
 MOUSER HAS !!!
  
 Cheers
 STEF


----------



## BORDELO

Hello everybody,
  
 Shinkoh Tantalum resistors 390K 1w are out of stock everywhere.
 If someone have 2 for sale, I BUY .
 Otherwise, What other resistors can i pu at this place ? Audio note tantalum are good ?
  
 I found and ordered 4x Shinkoh 100R
  
 Thanks
 STEF


----------



## robeeert1

bordelo said:


> Hello everybody,
> Otherwise, What other resistors can i pu at this place ? Audio note tantalum are good ?


 
  
 Audio Note tantalums are almost as good as Shinkoh. Get them if Shinkoh is out of stock.


----------



## BORDELO

Hi Robert,
  
 It's what i think. Thanks for confirm.
  
 Cheers
 STEF


----------



## loserica

...few words about S-Caps
 I decided to keep Havana (at least one time) for one reason: to see if the sound improve toward what I wanted, or not.
 So, Rike S-Caps brought a generous sound-stage, a lot of details, a good spacialize of instruments, higher coherence, more present treble, etc. , BUT after 150 hours the medium frequencies sound unsatisfactory for the price of these capacitors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Now, there will be two possibilities: the capacitors aren't burn enough or something does not fit here. Voices seems a little inhibited, thin and rough at the same time, without the initial refinement. This "extra" resolution looks at the moment that broked the tonal balance, something is not settled, cleared in sound.
  
 I'll see how it shows the situation after the next one hundred hours, if there is a favorable outcome and if the above mentioned is due to insufficient running. We'll see..


----------



## kimchee411

loserica said:


> ...few words about S-Caps
> I decided to keep Havana (at least one time) for one reason: to see if the sound improve toward what I wanted, or not.
> So, Rike S-Caps brought a generous sound-stage, a lot of details, a good spacialize of instruments, higher coherence, more present treble, etc. , BUT after 150 hours the medium frequencies sound unsatisfactory for the price of these capacitors. :rolleyes: Now, there will be two possibilities: the capacitors aren't burn enough or something does not fit here. Voices seems a little inhibited, thin and rough at the same time, without the initial refinement. This "extra" resolution looks at the moment that broked the tonal balance, something is not settled, cleared in sound.
> 
> I'll see how it shows the situation after the next one hundred hours, if there is a favorable outcome and if the above mentioned is due to insufficient running. We'll see..




Great, I ordered Rike S caps for my crossovers 2 days ago. Thanks for making me waste my money! J/k I'm sure things will clear up with more burn in. Other reports say vocals are a particular strong suit of this cap. Lets see.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Great, I ordered Rike S caps for my crossovers 2 days ago. Thanks for making me waste my money! J/k I'm sure things will clear up with more burn in. Other reports say vocals are a particular strong suit of this cap. Lets see.


 

 Don't worry Eugene, vocals have a superior texture compared with Auricap, I feel something there.. the key is patience, but I must confess that I've lost my patience with Havana.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Great, I ordered Rike S caps for my crossovers 2 days ago. Thanks for making me waste my money! J/k I'm sure things will clear up with more burn in. Other reports say vocals are a particular strong suit of this cap. Lets see.


 
  
 YES, the problem was the insufficient burning!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 <I can not abstain from a new comparison from my memory with ARC DAC7>.
  
 Vocals getting better, more beautiful. The sound loss their "harsh character" or what I called too colorful or artificial..
 It is now incredible what did those capacitors. I'm sure that the sound-stage, details, the separation between instruments, and probably imaging are about on the same level with DAC7. I do not remember to be better with ARC. Speed, timing, dynamics, the tonal balance, hmm..I am thinking that Havana can not be better but even to much weaker. It was what I would call closer to perfection when I heard Dac7.
 So, voices became more realistic, extensive and firm and are expressed with a superior texture, certainly richer compared with Auricap (differences are consistent).  Probably the vocals will sound slightly more natural and refined with ARC, but here I can not see critical differences from now on. 
  
 My only categorical reservation would be on the bass side, if I were to compare the two DACs. With ARC bass is more consistent, with a slightly better extension and expressed more complete, more nuanced in frequency. But I say that you can live peacefully with Havana becouse the bass quantity and quality is still impressive compared with the "stock" version. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Personal I like more the treble with Havana overall. The difference it makes by the upper treble area. "Highs" are somewhat attenuated on the upper area with ARC. The decay level of middle treble is similar for both DACs. Still, the transparency seems better with Havana (of course minor differences..)
  
 The wide and depth of the scene is impressive with Rike S-Caps, the layering is very different compared with Auricap! There are better discernible fine micro-details on the background and some noises that I couldn't hear at all before. Audition is very relaxed becouse S-Caps are very coherent capacitors!! ..superior refinement and musicality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think that the change of seven 0,10uF film capacitors with Rike S-cap is one of the most efficient upgrade for Havana.


----------



## kimchee411

I just replaced the ClarityCap MR in my Magnepan 1.6 series crossover with Rike S caps. With only 9 hours on them...

I am astounded! WOW!

The separation, precision, detail and simultaneous coherence, flow, dynamics, balance, natural tone... These are going to end up in every piece I have modded in one way or another. If I had to nit pick, once again I would agree with Tony Gee - a little more richness, though they are in no way lightweight or thin - and tonal color, but just a little. These are more honest caps than Audyn True Copper, but True Copper have more character. More lush, bold, saturated. When I think of TC sonic signature SET always comes to mind. TC makes me feel more cozy and immersed but Rike S cap is at least equally engaging if not more as the music just flows so nicely and pulls you in. Separation of instruments is exceptional. Every section in orchestra is expressed justly, right hand and left hand piano are never confused or drowned out by one or the other. Rike S cap does classical music like... I don't even know what to say but it is fantastic. 

Still need lots of burn-in from which I expect more delicacy and refinement.

I will pony up for the 0.1uF pieces in both my Havanas, no doubt. Another good thing is that they come in large values, up to 22uF at least. I have been using Mundorf Supreme in such cases with better caps in parallel and it has worked well for me but Rike S caps are going to replace those. 

More later.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> The separation, precision, detail and simultaneous coherence, flow, dynamics, balance, natural tone... These are going to end up in every piece I have modded in one way or another. If I had to nit pick, once again I would agree with Tony Gee - a little more richness, though they are in no way lightweight or thin - and tonal color, but just a little. These are more honest caps than Audyn True Copper, but True Copper have more character. More lush, bold, saturated. When I think of TC sonic signature SET always comes to mind. TC makes me feel more cozy and immersed but Rike S cap is at least equally engaging if not more as the music just flows so nicely and pulls you in. Separation of instruments is exceptional. Every section in orchestra is expressed justly, right hand and left hand piano are never confused or drowned out by one or the other. Rike S cap does classical music like... I don't even know what to say but it is fantastic.


 
  
 I'm glad to hear it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You pointed very well: separation of instruments is very good with Rike S-Cap. Another important thing, these capacitors express the sound in a coherent and realistic manner (justly). 
 The feeling that you have is an emotional participation to the sound.
  


kimchee411 said:


> Still need lots of burn-in from which I expect more delicacy and refinement.


 
  
 It is true. You'll need a minimum 200/300 hours.


----------



## kimchee411

Whoa, smaller values of Duelund CAST Cu are now available.  Tempted to replace the 0.01uF CuTF caps... at $450 *ouch*
  
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_duelund_pio_elec_new.html
  
 Hell, I am tempted to build a custom enclosure and replace ALL film caps with Duelund - the KING of caps!  It would only cost upwards of $2k, not counting the output caps I already have. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I wish Rike would make a copper foil version of the S-Cap.  I bet that would sound fantastic.  Would be pricey though.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Whoa, smaller values of Duelund CAST Cu are now available.  Tempted to replace the 0.01uF CuTF caps... at $450 *ouch*
> 
> http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_duelund_pio_elec_new.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 It will sounds really good (special) with Duelund, Eugene.. but I do not think it's worth it. On that money you can look for other DACs category. So the scheme/implementation is not limited with Havana!? I have reservations. Change the output capacitors with Duelund, but stop right there. 
  
 Back to Havana: after several hundred hours of burning, S-Caps bring that transparent sound which leaves me stunned. I would have never thought that Havana is able to do this, I speak very seriously.
 even if the sound is not yet fully settled (bass is not yet into its optimal parameters, instruments and vocals may have a more heavier&fuller body. I'm sure this will be outlined at a later), the sound transparency is incredible. With Auricap I felt my electrostatic earspeakers on my head, now I feel the music around the head and if I close my eyes I get the feeling to find myself in the middle of it. Sound is realistic, alive compared with what I heard before.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## mako44

Hi all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,
  
 would you recommend Rike S-cap on c11 ? I have an Interteknik True Copper for the time being, of wich I'm 95% satisfied. I love her welcoming sound, beautiful medium full of presence and sensuality. Lot of pleasure when listening to music. However it may be a bit round and I would appreciate something a little more incisive.
  
 Regarding the price of S-cap I could have a try but I see you have reservations too : leaner medium, a bit harsh as well... Is it as neutral as Clarity Mr Cap or still warmer ?
  
  
 The other choice would be duelund or vcap cutf instead of Interteknik True Copper (still on c11) but the price is not the same and I'm not sure it would bring what I'm looking for. Don't want to pay it just to test 1 week. I still have several cutf in my havana and my opinion is it's better to mix caps to get better nuances depending on their tone and qualities but I may be wrong.
  
  
  
 I don't know if you listen to your music with a computer or directly from a drive but I tested a software called Daphile this weekend : it brought major improvements on my system. If you already have a good converter like Ioserica and his Legato the impact will be lower but you really should have a try you could have a good surprise : http://www.daphile.com/


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have not done exactly right. I should let the capacitors to burn-in completely and then come up with impressions..
 "leaner medium and a bit harsh as well": are some partial conclusions and I think this will be adjust in time. We'll see.
 Rike are very detailed, transparent and vocals sound beautiful, ...but should be burn-in completely. I do not ever recommend CuTF for C11...it will be burn extremely hard! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 My opinion is, wait until my Rike caps are completely burned, for the moment don't change that capacitor (at C11 place).
 I bet on Duelund.


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have not done exactly right. I should let the capacitors to burn-in completely and then come up with impressions..
 "leaner medium and a bit harsh as well": are some partial conclusions and I think this will be adjust in time. We'll see.
 I don't think that S-Cap will sound less well if compared it directly with V-Cap CuTF. Rike are very detailed, transparent and vocals sound beautiful, ...but should be burn-in completely. I do not ever recommend CuTF for C11...it will be burn extremely hard! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 My opinion is, wait until my Rike caps are completely burned, for the moment don't change that capacitor (at C11 place).
 I bet on Duelund.


----------



## kimchee411

mako44 said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you are willing to spend the money, go with Duelund.  I don't think you will be disappointed.  I've never heard of anybody disappointed with CAST.  I don't think it will fit unless you leave the cover off, though.  They are enormous caps.  
  
 S-Cap is warmer than Clarity MR, but not as warm as TC, and more detailed than both.  Transparency and tonal realism is superior to Clarity MR, but more importantly I find it much more musical and engaging.
  
 "However it may be a bit round and I would appreciate something a little more incisive."
  
 It sounds like you will like the Rike S-Cap a lot; probably more than True Copper.  I still think CuTF have better tone, finesse, and are more sophisticated at this point.


----------



## mako44

Thanks for your answer. If I go for a duelund it will be a VSF and not CAST (too expensive for just a try, too big). However T Gee suggests they're a bit rolled off on highs, a pity.
  
 I like Interteknik TC a lot in fact, they are extremely pleasant to listen too, lively, sensual, with a "embodied" listening but still detailed and coherent. They're especially great on soul, jazz, rock on my mind but work also great, and better than my previous caps on c11, on classical or acoustic (I think some other caps, straighter and more neutral, could be better though). Kind of cap you could listen to for hours with still the same pleasure and no weariness. A good deal.
  
 If I want to try something else it's more out of curiosity, to compare and find the better tone on my system, also because TC is a bit round sometimes. But don't won't a sterile sound. Regarding the price of s-caps it can worth a try, even with reservations of Ioserica it can be different on c11, and help me to confirm or not my Interteknik TC preference.


----------



## Lorienblack

I have a Havana DAC which I bought for £320 and it came with a 1954 Bendix 6385. I didn't like it!!! What? So I got a JJ 6386 which seemed like a superb £100 spend at the time, but I kept reading people rave about the Bendix, so I gave it a longer audition. Given time to warm up - it has knocked my socks off. 

So now instead of wondering about building a tube preamp, I'm looking to mod the DAC. 

I'm on a budget of about £200 - after all the children have to eat. 

This thread is huge and many people have so many ideas.

What do you all think the best single mod is, that I could achieve for/less £200? 

My particular taste leans towards the warm and seductive, but not at the expense of too much detail.

I use a "warmed up" Pass F5 for the amp, and full range Mark Audio 10.3s in QWTL.

If I was to have a wish it would be to open up and deepen the soundstage, it's not a weakness in this set up, but the trouble with heaven is I would like a little more  

Many thanks in advance for any words of wisdom and direction.


----------



## mako44

What comes to mind quickly would be to put good & neutral caps on output (main modification according to me), input (c9-c10) and c12. This will improve your dac in many ways. To get the warm touch you can put a Audyn True Copper cap on c11 (or jupiter ht beeswax). I suggest you to change also 6 diodes around tube by Shinkoh (more refinement and it costs nothing) as well as around power section by Schottky.
  
 It's also recommended to change transformer by a rcore (25-30 pounds if I'm not wrong) but need electronics knowledge. That's the more important mods for me and you'll stay in your budget even with good caps of 20-25 pounds.
  
 You can also change the 4 power section caps by better ones (silmic...).


----------



## Lorienblack

On the subject of power supply. Nobody here seems to have attempted a shunt regulator to ensure a super clean DC, is there a reason why not? The Salas shunt regs are legend and can be populated with little cost. 

Maybe I'll try that as well as the other recommended mods, and report back.


----------



## robeeert1

lorienblack said:


> I'm on a budget of about £200 - after all the children have to eat.
> 
> If I was to have a wish it would be to open up and deepen the soundstage, it's not a weakness in this set up, but the trouble with heaven is I would like a little more


 
  
 If my bugdet was £200 I would invest all in output caps.


----------



## Lorienblack

Im going to opt for resistor changes, rectifier upgrade and spend the change on output caps. Thanks guys.
  
 Another question, as I have some experts out there.
  
 The Coax spdif is SO much better than the USB input. Is this a common finding or have I missed some settings with my PC? And whats the deal with the transport MHDT have brought out, I fail to see its relevance.
  
 Thanks again......


----------



## s1rrah

lorienblack said:


> Im going to opt for resistor changes, rectifier upgrade and spend the change on output caps. Thanks guys.
> 
> Another question, as I have some experts out there.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes. I find the COAX to be more resolving/cleaner than the USB (on my MHDT Stockholm and also on my previous Havana) ... I like the optical better, too


----------



## BORDELO

Hi to all !!!
 
Damned, Duelund CAST PIO are out of stock at partconnexion. And very expensive at others dealers.
So i make an order for VCaps ( input & Output ) and Jupiter VT for C11.
Wait and listen ...
 
At the moment, thanks for your help, i do this :
Bendix 6385/1964
Chips K-Grade Japan ( From a Kenwood DP1100 )
Fuse Furutech
R-Core transformer
Shinkoh resistors in tube section
Fast Diodes Vishay
Some BG ...
 
Each step is a real pleasure to listen.
After VCaps, i expect to change all 0.1uf capacitors as the good advice from horace.
 
I wish you a very happy Christmas
A+STEF


----------



## Lorienblack

What did you find changed with the resistors around the tube and the vishay diodes? That's my first mod planned. 

Thanks - happy crimbo


----------



## BORDELO

Music become true and live.
 Like a sort of 3D


----------



## loserica

bordelo said:


> Each step is a real pleasure to listen. After VCaps, i expect to change all 0.1uf capacitors as the good advice from horace.


 
  
 This week I left Havana connected the whole day. Today I heard something new in the mid and low frequencies. It is something truly noticeable. In a word, something was enriched at these frequencies: bass is firmer now and down lower in frequency. The bass has a robust body, is fleshy and more extensive than before. It can distinguish more easily and more coherent between "upper" bass and the lower bass. I never heard this before on Havana in this manner. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Havana is now able again of a good tonal balance and timing, but also very good dynamics and a higher resolution simultaneously. Instruments like piano, violin, guitar, saxophone, etc.. and vocals sound natural, believable and quite completely at the level of information and manner.
 After I exceeded the first stage of burning (about 200/300 hours, or even more..) I see a completely different face of these capacitors. Rike S-Caps are very good!!


----------



## mako44

I listened to Rike S caps on c11, 25 hours of burning in only. Kimchee and Ioserica described them well (although I don't really hear harshness for the moment) but here are additional feelings.
  
 One of the main improvements regards transparency : I hear many things I didn't suspect before, that make music more alive. Good news it's not cold at all and never tiring.
  
 Other main improvement is very good coherence of this cap : every frequence is very well balanced and thanks to clarity low frequencies are much more audibles (and I have the impression they come from lower than previous caps but may be wrong). With Audyn TC I had a small bump in low mids, with Rike my system is extremely clean : everything is at its right place and controlled (low freqs could still be better but never heard havana very good here).
  
 It's very spatious too, sound gives the impression to fill the room and come from a bigger scene. There's less impact in the music on some tracks (especially pop/rock or very rythmic ones but there's no rule), classical is great. In a general way listening is more pleasant on my system and to my tastes (because of more details, better lows and more sharpen sound) and very clean.
  
 Till that point I prefer them to Audyn TC. The "problem" is I miss the emotion of Audyn TC. Mids of Rike S caps are good, very pure, sweet, but don't bring the presence, texture and mellow of Audyn. Everything is very clean, nice to listen to, I spend a very nice moment but each time I notice they don't touch my heart as Audyn TC can do.
  
 May be If I didn't hear rich & warm caps like Audyn TC or Jupiter HT before I would be plenty satisfied but for the moment I slightly feel this lack. It's only true on some tracks (where voices or an instrument are highlighted and still not always the case).
  
  
 Well at least now I know what I want : a Rike S-cap (or better but with the same presentation) with the mids of Audyn TC... I was thinking of Duelund VSF Cu to get a richer mid but I don't think they're very lush either so I would not get more impact. Other possibility would be to keep Rike S Cap on c11 and try a Audyn TC or Jupiter HT on c12, hoping that it would combine both qualities without loosing too much.


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> I listened to Rike S caps on c11, 25 hours of burning in only. Kimchee and Ioserica described them well (although I don't really hear harshness for the moment) but here are additional feelings.
> 
> Till that point I prefer them to Audyn TC. The "problem" is I miss the emotion of Audyn TC. Mids of Rike S caps are good, very pure, sweet, but don't bring the presence, texture and mellow of Audyn. Everything is very clean, nice to listen to, I spend a very nice moment but each time I notice they don't touch my heart as Audyn TC can do.
> May be If I didn't hear rich & warm caps like Audyn TC or Jupiter HT before I would be plenty satisfied but for the moment I slightly feel this lack. It's only true on some tracks (where voices or an instrument are highlighted and still not always the case).
> Well at least now I know what I want : a Rike S-cap (or better but with the same presentation) with the mids of Audyn TC... I was thinking of Duelund VSF Cu to get a richer mid but I don't think they're very lush either so I would not get more impact. Other possibility would be to keep Rike S Cap on c11 and try a Audyn TC or Jupiter HT on c12, hoping that it would combine both qualities without loosing too much.


 
  
 Here's the key point. It need minimum of three hundred hours of burning!! Oil caps need to settle in the specific circuit through regular use, remember minimum 300 hours. Then they will reach that level of texture that you dreamed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The differences between 300 hours of burning and as I heard at 25 hours are major, unbelievable for me. They acquired a very rich sound but also that dynamics, that coherence, clarity which is impossible to achieve with cheaper solutions. After this it will come the refinement and emotion in audition. I felt the same from the beginning, some lack of emotion and warm.. but it was only _apparently_ that Rike is weaker than the other capacitors in this chapter. I recommend you to keep S-Cap on c11 and to change all 0,1uF capacitors with Rike! I think they are enough to make Havana to sound really special.


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> With Audyn TC I had a small bump in low mids, with Rike my system is extremely clean : everything is at its right place and controlled (low freqs could still be better but never heard havana very good here).


 
 You will see that Havana it is capable of that (yet keeping some reservations). So, after the complete break-in, low frequencies will be very satisfying, believe me!


----------



## mako44

I planned to let Rike s-cap burn in a while anyway to see how it improves but I doubt it can reach the richness and impact I expect. Answer in a few days !
  
 I swapped Vcap Cutf on c12 this evening with Jupiter HT (and rike on c11 so), but no miracle. I find back the medium I love so much with HT & Audyn VT but lose clarity, alive feeling and lows get back slow and round. So it's too much on the Jupiter HT side. It should be better with Audyn TC but I don't think it's the solution anyway.


----------



## robeeert1

Here is a chance to get Bendix 6385 good priced. As I know you can have them for less than $120/pc.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121243703500
  
 Edit: Seller decided to keep them


----------



## mako44

Happy new year to all full of music and discoveries ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My havana is muted : I soldered back vcap cutf on c12 but the dac doesn't initialize anymore. Havana appears on my computer and smartphone but diodes stay blue and red instead of turning green as usual. And of course no sound. When I plug havana with usb cable a green light appears but blue and red ones don't change like in rca.
  
 I unsoldered and soldered c12 back but no change. I hear a small click every 40 seconds like if havana tried to initialize but I don't really see where's the problem. Certainly nothing, a loose connection somewhere.... What I don't know if it can come from anywhere on the circuit or from a specific area of the circuit. I'll look at that this weekend but any idea is welcome.


----------



## kimchee411

mako44 said:


> Happy new year to all full of music and discoveries ! :happy_face1:
> 
> My havana is muted : I soldered back vcap cutf on c12 but the dac doesn't initialize anymore. Havana appears on my computer and smartphone but diodes stay blue and red instead of turning green as usual. And of course no sound. When I plug havana with usb cable a green light appears but blue and red ones don't change like in rca.
> 
> I unsoldered and soldered c12 back but no change. I hear a small click every 40 seconds like if havana tried to initialize but I don't really see where's the problem. Certainly nothing, a loose connection somewhere.... What I don't know if it can come from anywhere on the circuit or from a specific area of the circuit. I'll look at that this weekend but any idea is welcome.




That sucks! Try removing the board from the chassis and playing it off of just the board. One time I couldn't get a signal after trying to keep capacitor leads long and tucking them under the board. After clipping the leads it was okay again. Maybe there is some contact with the chassis? I am probably the last person who can diagnose an electronics problem but worth a try.


----------



## mako44

I had a look at my dac just now, it was almost unmounted so I mounted it back in its case and it works... I don't try to understand


----------



## loserica

mako44 said:


> I had a look at my dac just now, it was almost unmounted so I mounted it back in its case and it works... I don't try to understand


 

 Good. Go to work now. I mean the break-in capacitors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
After 300/350 hours Rike S-Caps produces acoustic instruments and vocals in a very natural and convincing way. Once beyond a critical point, progressively, instruments and vocals gets a solid and full-body, before the sound seems a little thin. Everything is expressed more vigorously, with better atack & authority; better articulated; These capacitors are capable of exemplary coherence. I'm very satisfied of the combination S-Caps&CuTF!!


----------



## s1rrah

mako44 said:


> I had a look at my dac just now, it was almost unmounted so I mounted it back in its case and it works... I don't try to understand


----------



## mako44

Hello all,
  
 if I try to burn in caps without playing music but the dac turned on only, does it burn caps as well or do I have to turn all the system on and play music in the same time ?
  
 I have a doubt.


----------



## robeeert1

mako44 said:


> if I try to burn in caps without playing music but the dac turned on only, does it burn caps as well or do I have to turn all the system on and play music in the same time ?
> I have a doubt.


 
  
 They will not burn-in when DAC is on only, the caps have to work.


----------



## mako44

Ok thanks for confirmation Robert so the only solution is to "unplug" speakers.


----------



## kimchee411

Wouldn't it depend on the location of the capacitors?  I mean if it's power supply or input caps can't you just turn it on and play music, but with the preamp/amp off?


----------



## kimchee411

Late delivery from Santa.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The big 10uF ones will go in Von Gaylord Legend speakers, bypassed with Audyn True Copper 0.22uF.


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Late delivery from Santa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I hope Santa have been inspired with these babies.


----------



## mako44

Nice stuff 10uf Rike Uf caps are huge.... a lot of fun coming.  Rike S cap and Audyn TC are on my mind a very interesting combination while these caps are so complementaries. At least on the paper, I didn't have the opportunity to test but looks attractive !


----------



## BORDELO

Hello,
  
 Happy new year to all !!!
 Vcaps CUTF installed ( Output and Input ) , and Audyn TC in C11
 it's burning ... long burning, already very good and promising.
  
 Someone has tested Russian PIO K40Y-9 in C11 ?
 It seems to have a good synergy with teflon ...
  
 STEF


----------



## loserica

A few words about V-Cap CuTF:
 (it is a reconfirmation that they are very good capacitors)
  
 http://www.higas.net/audio-hifi/audio-reviews/capacitor-review/
  
 quote:
 "Changing AN-Silver with V-Cap CuTF, I had immediately noticed more air, more details and weightier bass.  Initially, it may sound a bit metallic and bright but after a notoriously long break-in
 (VH Audio indicates 400 hour break-in period), musicality comes back with more natural tone/texture to the sound.  It is the most transparent, neutral and detailed capacitor of the three and arguably most flat/extended in the frequency range, subjectively speaking.  It has excellent sense of speed, pace, rhythm and timing. It is a wonderful capacitor and I can understand that a lots of audiophiles are very happy with them, including me".
  
 I perceived noticeable changes in sound even after 700-800 hours of break-in.
 Duelund promise a lot. I'm sorry that I haven't two Havana (one with CuTF and another one with Cast PIO like Eugene..) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Unfortunately Duelund fits harder for lack of space and it is more difficult to install them.
  
 quote:
 "Both CuTF and CAST PIO Cu are highly recommended if your budget permits.  Both achieve a fine balance of high-fidelity and musicality.  CuTF may be tilted slightly towards high-fidelity while CAST PIO Cu emphasizes musicality a bit more".


----------



## s1rrah

I'd like the opinion of any of the more technically minded guys here ...
  
 As you all know, I'm a long time user of the MHDT DACS ... the Havana for many years and now the Stockholm for the past two or so. I've used them in the totally stock configuration because this is adequate for me and I'm not a DIY guy (and I am just satisfied with the sound in general and so don't want to mess with it).
  
 Anyway, I'm considering buying a Musical Paradise MP-D1 tube DAC to compare/review against the Stockholm... 
  
 I've been intrigued by it ever since discovering it and the price is rather affordable; also, the reviews that are out there, mostly with speaker rigs, are very good.
  
 ...
  

  
 ...

 ...
  

  
 ...
  
 I'm curious about it because it supposedly uses true analogue tube output for each channel, as opposed to being a simple single tube buffer stage.  Also, it uses 5670 tubes, like the MHDT DACs but the main thing I'm interested in is seeing how much of an influence the tubes make on the sonics (especially when tube rolling) since according to the designers site, the DAC actually uses the tubes for the actual output stage of each channel.
  
_"Our goal is to achieve the most analog sound in the digital world. In order to meet this goal, the analog output section only employs "vacuum tubes". No cheap op-amp or transistors. Also, no global negative feedback loop. This special design provides very musical listening experience."_
  
 I'm curious what any of you who know about circuit design might be able to say about how this design looks. 
  
 ???
  
 Here's the main page where you can read more about the design:
  
 ...
  
*Musical Paradise MP-D*
  
 $480.00 with a 7 day return window. 
  
 Any thoughts?
  
 Thanks.
 .joel


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> As you all know, I'm a long time user of the MHDT DACS ... the Havana for many years and now the Stockholm for the past two or so. I've used them in the totally stock configuration because this is adequate for me and I'm not a DIY guy (and I am just satisfied with the sound in general and so don't want to mess with it).


 
  
 Good for you, Joel! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You are satisfied with the sound in general.. It means you have a different psychological construct or maybe you haven't been infected since with the virus. But you said you're not a DIY guy, supposed to notice that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do not consider myself a "DIY-er", but I have a lot of thoughts like this in my head... Even after touching an exemplary quality I start thinking about what I could change. This is a bad thing viewed from a certain point of view. Probably I am too perfectionist, maybe too tensioned with what I have. I do not know exactly.
  
 I can not say anything about that DAC, I have not studied the issue yet.


----------



## loserica

I have some advices for those who want to listen to Havana for a long time ago and achieves a superior sound quality (otherwise it is not justify to reselling..)
 To achieve their full sound potential and to overcome much its class compared to unmodified version, I speak from my experience regarding this DAC, it is very important to invest in all sections.
 - electrolytics;
 - film capacitors: output (0,47uF)/input (0,01uF), C11 section (0,22uF), C12 (0,01uF),  and what is equally important 0,1uF (all seven film capacitors)!
 It is the choice of everyone which choose there, but it is recommended something qualitative: Audyn, Rike Audio, Jupiter, V-Caps, etc .. These are a few tested solutions. I have chosen V-Cap CuTF mixed with Rike S-Cap, a very good combination.
 ...etc,
  
 On the other hand there is a kind of ranking to prioritize those critical components. I don't pretend that everything is located right in terms of absolute.
 From my point of view is the following (the first are the most important, last the least important):
 - V-Cap CuTF for output (or Duelund Cast PIO).
 - V-Cap CuTF for input (or Duelund Cast PIO).
 These are probably the best solution.
 - Rike S-Cap PIO (0,10uF) or something else but better than Auricap. Remember, better!... As I said, it is important to put instead 0,1uF stock film high quality capacitors.
*-* Electrolytic capacitors: I don't recommand to investing _much_ here (for example Black Gate are too expensive, prices are stealthily for these capacitors...) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If I were to start all over again probably I would satisfied with Elna Silmic II. Elna are very good with an unbeatable price-quality ratio.
 - further I think I bet on S-Cap or Audyn TC on C11* instead V-Cap Cutf becouse V-Caps are too expensive and break-in extremly hard here. It is a real pain to do this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 * i'm not pretty shure if this is the correct position in the hierarchy.
 - Tubes;
 - PCM56P - K grade chips;
 - R-core transformer;
 - Elna ROB Tonerex (4pcs), power supply capacitors;
 - Resistors (Shinkoh Tantalum) around the tube socket;
 - Conectors (rca)
 - Schottky diodes,
 - Fuse
 - Small Isolation Feet
 Some permutations can occur in this list according to personal preferences, but overall ranking is accurate.
 ... so, I thing the Film capacitors are the greatest impact, followed by electrolytics and connectors resistors, diodes, fuse, etc.. bringing even minor changes.


----------



## BORDELO

Thanks Horace for this summation. 
 It's very helpful for new Havana's Diyers
  
 At the moment, i'm very enjoying with Audyn TC at C11 place.
 It's very musical.
  
 My Vcap CUTF have already burned 180 hours. So, i don't change anything before 400hours.
 After that, i'm tempted to test Russian PIO K40Y-9 at C11 and/or C12.
  
 To be continued...
  
 Cheers
 STEF


----------



## mrAdrian

Any comparisons with the other SS DACs like an Audio-GD or Yulong or etc..?


----------



## s1rrah

loserica said:


> I have some advices for those who want to listen to Havana for a long time ago and achieves a superior sound quality (otherwise it is not justify to reselling..)
> To achieve their full sound potential and to overcome much its class compared to unmodified version, I speak from my experience regarding this DAC, it is very important to invest in all sections.
> - electrolytics;
> - film capacitors: output (0,47uF)/input (0,01uF), C11 section (0,22uF), C12 (0,01uF),  and what is equally important 0,1uF (all seven film capacitors)!
> ...


 
  
 ^^^ that right there is why I so love this thread.


----------



## mmcentyre

S1rrah,
Knowing that everything is subjective and system dependent, I've owned both a Havana and MP-D1. They sound very similar. I personally think it would be a lateral move. Both lacked deep base in my system. Both were natural and musical. The MP-D1 was connected directly to my Bob Latino ST-70 tube amp and produced a background hum/hiss noise. Tube rolling didn't help. I never had this problem with others DAC's connected directly. I liked the DAC enough to put in a stepped attenuator in my amp, which tells you something, That helped. However, I ultimately sold it due to it's bass shyness, plain looks and inherent noisiness. That said, customer support was good, and if someone couldn't afford a Havana and didn't mind the DAC's size, it's worth a try. Come prepared with electrical tape to cover that blinding LED...


----------



## s1rrah

mmcentyre said:


> S1rrah,
> Knowing that everything is subjective and system dependent, I've owned both a Havana and MP-D1. They sound very similar. I personally think it would be a lateral move. Both lacked deep base in my system. Both were natural and musical. The MP-D1 was connected directly to my Bob Latino ST-70 tube amp and produced a background hum/hiss noise. Tube rolling didn't help. I never had this problem with others DAC's connected directly. I liked the DAC enough to put in a stepped attenuator in my amp, which tells you something, That helped. However, I ultimately sold it due to it's bass shyness, plain looks and inherent noisiness. That said, customer support was good, and if someone couldn't afford a Havana and didn't mind the DAC's size, it's worth a try. Come prepared with electrical tape to cover that blinding LED...


 
  
 This is the second reason why I so love this thread.
  
 Just saved me 500 bucks, mate. Thanks for that.


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## preproman

Subscribed


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## loserica

jkorten said:


> Wouldn't you think a $3500 DAC should sound better than a $1000 DAC (previous generation too)?
> You should compare to their current top of the line (Pagoda) and let's be real, compare to competition up to 2X the price, but 3X?
> I think compared to other $1300 DACs the Pagoda is a bargain.


 
  
 I remembered this post today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes it would be true when compared Havana (the stock-version, because we can speak now in these terms) with Dac7. But here has been invested in high-end components (eg. Black Gate, V-Cap CuTF). Tests that I have done at that time were not very accurate because I recently installed new capacitors (Rike S-Cap) and they have not been break-in enough or at all. This was one of the reasons I liked Dac7 by far. Something was not seated in Havana, yet! Why I didn't sold Havana? I gave it another chance and I waited patiently the final break-in.
  
 I speaking from memory now. Differences between the two DACs were greatly reduced that I would say differences are more about nuance.. The lowest level of differences are related to sound-stage, imaging, details, timing, etc...but these are insignificant.  Only slight differences are related to frequency response: bass is overall better with Dac7 but Havana has been very much close; Probably Dac7 is better in speed and dynamics also.
 Vocals are expressed with the same delicacy, refinement and with the same realism on both (there are differences in nuances, texture, of course). Yet, I feel like vocals are played with a little more force and a little more authority with Audio Research but here the differences are also extremely small. I can say honestly that I like as much both of (it seems to be kind of complementarity, the vocal timbre, texture with Havana has something special indeed but I can say the same about Dac7).
 The two DACs sound extremely relaxed, airy and give a nice analogue feel to the music. Both DACs have the same level of coherence and an exemplary separation of instruments. Everything is revealed and placed accurately and produces acoustic instruments and vocals in a very natural and convincing way.
  
 I noticed that Havana is better in terms of high-frequency transparency and upper-treble extension, where Dac7 is less reserved. It surprises me because I always thought that Havana has a darker signature of texture, tonality. Should be noted that Rike S-Caps having contributed decisively, bringing that level of transparency and texture that I've always wanted it.
  
 If Havana would have the amount of Dac7 bass and maybe just a little more power, energy and probably more dynamics, it would be the perfect converter for me, for my setup and for my level of exigency!! Anyway, the reason I kept Havana is because I like its sound and even if Audio Research sounds a little better overall I wouldn't be happier with it.


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## loserica

loserica said:


> Here's the key point. It need minimum of three hundred hours of burning!! Oil caps need to settle in the specific circuit through regular use, remember minimum 300 hours. Then they will reach that level of texture that you dreamed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 After the last upgrade (Rike Audio S-Cap - seven 0,1uF film caps who replaced Auricap), BUT ONLY NOW they are almost completely break-in I discovered that sonorous depth, texture and musical sense that comes to enjoy without stopping! Only now I understand either partial, what Eugene said when compared CuTF with Duelund (which are also PIO Capacitors):
 quote:
 "The CuTF sound more vivid and super saturated by comparison whereas the CAST are smooooooth but every bit as detailed, possibly a tiny bit more.  Imaging is so rock solid with so much depth and definition all all the way back through the sound stage.  It's kind of like the CuTF are like an HDTV set up in an a store display where the picture is really bold and pretty, but the CAST are like a properly calibrated set that's natural and easy on the eyes (ears in this case).  Not to say the CAST produce a subdued sound -- not at all.  It's hard to explain"...
  
 Even Duelund would be better, with a little more richness and tonal colour, I believe that Rike S-Caps have much of the Duelund characteristic sound being all PIO. At this level we talk about very good paper-in-oil capacitors. So seriously, Havana's sound is now so smoooooth and every bit as detailed!! Imaging is so solid with so much depth and definition!! For me it is amazing how much has changed its sound with this latest upgrade. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I think Eugene will confirm later what I said here. Without changing of all seven 0,1uF film with a higher quality capacitors you will never hear this DAC at the maximum sound's potential!!


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## TVeye

Hi everybody.
  
 This highly interresting thread have tempted me to try caps/chips rolling too.
 I need some help so...
 I plan to take the inexpensive way and use cheap russian K72P caps (placed in a wooden base under the Havana) for C9,C10,C11,C12 and the seven 0.1uf one.
 For the output caps,I will go for the 1uf Rike S.
  
 Is it safe to use 200v caps in the Havana?
 0.1uf value is impossible to find in higher voltage rating than 200v with the K72P (the most closed value is .082uf).
 So I don't know if I must use 0.1uf 200v or 0.082uf 500v for the seven last caps.
 If both solutions are bad,I can always use FT3 (.1uf /600v) instead but I'm not sure if I will like their smouth sound.
 And how about the input caps? is is better to stay close the original value (0.001uf 1000v) or is a higher value,lower voltage rating recommended?
  
 My goal is to jump in musicality and definition but not invest too much because I'm not sure to keep the havana in the final.
 This year,I would to try a jKenny Ciunas usb/spdif with the Havana and compare this combo to the Ciunas dac (direct usb/i2s dac without spdif in the signal path).
 After the evaluation time,I will know wich dac is better in my system and return one of the two jKenny devices.
 If the Havana win,it will be time for serious caps upgrade...


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## BORDELO

tveye said:


> I plan to take the inexpensive way and use cheap russian K72P caps (placed in a wooden base under the Havana) for C9,C10,C11,C12 and the seven 0.1uf one.


 
  
 Hello,
  
 Good idea, i have the same.
  
 So i'm going to test K40Y-9 200V in C11. 
 I think 200V is good value for Havana. Stock one is 250V ...


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## loserica

tveye said:


> I plan to take the inexpensive way and use cheap russian K72P caps (placed in a wooden base under the Havana) for C9,C10,C11,C12 and the seven 0.1uf one. For the output caps,I will go for the 1uf Rike S.
> 
> Is it safe to use 200v caps in the Havana?
> 0.1uf value is impossible to find in higher voltage rating than 200v with the K72P (the most closed value is .082uf).
> ...


 
 I don't think being prescriptions... It is hard to say which solutions will be definitely better than another without a preliminary testing. Probably a higher capacity will sound better with Havana, perhaps not. I still believe, higher capacities than stock are safer; you remove some premises to go wrong. I can only take responsibility from what I personally know. May be are those who can give you more informed suggestions about this purely technical informations. One thing is clear to me regarding this DAC: must be looked for solutions in the ​​film capacitors area!! Stock capacitors do not promise very much. I like Havana because you can play freely with it,... but you take almost all decisions.


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## TVeye

Hi,
  
 If 200v is OK for the Havana,this sound good for me,the low voltage rate is supossely better (I think) and less expensive too.
  
 At my opinion,a plint under the Havana should be a good candidate for a more easy,quick and safe caps rolling.
 No longer necessary to Solder and desolder the capacitors from the pcb,just take out the originals caps,solder small wires from the downside of the circuit board,solder some 3-poles toggle switches to the wires (one switch per capacitor location)
 After that,you can solder up to three different caps per swich and it will be easy to compare different brands or different values for one capacitor's position.
 You could do this for each individual capacitors (individual 0.1 uF too),a very accurate comparison.
 When you are sure of the best possible combination,you could take out the wires & switches and solder the definitive caps to the pcb.
  
 Ed.


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## TVeye

> Probably a higher capacity will sound better with Havana, perhaps not. I still believe, higher capacities than stock are safer; you remove some premises to go wrong.


 
 It's probably a good idea to ask the question directly to MHDT lab.


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## kimchee411

Put these babies in this morning.  Wow just barely fit them in!  Didn't cut any leads and had to snake them around tight spots.  I even had to rotate my tube dampener to make it fit.  I used blu tack to help with resonance since they were mostly floating/loose.
  
 Horace is right.  Straight out of the box, very impressive!  I think this upgrade takes this DAC to the next level.  I was planning on putting the Auricaps in my other Havana, which still have stock 0.1uF caps, but now I think I have to upgrade that one with Rike caps too.  Now for the long burn-in period...


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## TVeye

For information,I've contacted MHDT Lab and they reply this:
  
*More than 50V is OK.
 So, 200V is OK>>*


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## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> Put these babies in this morning.  Wow just barely fit them in!  Didn't cut any leads and had to snake them around tight spots.  I even had to rotate my tube dampener to make it fit.  I used blu tack to help with resonance since they were mostly floating/loose.
> 
> Horace is right.  Straight out of the box, very impressive!  I think this upgrade takes this DAC to the next level.  I was planning on putting the Auricaps in my other Havana, which still have stock 0.1uF caps, but now I think I have to upgrade that one with Rike caps too.  Now for the long burn-in period...


 
  
 This is definitely the best Havana!! Duelunds are impressive there.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS: After the completely break-in your Havana will sound great! Will be definitely in another league than before..You'll see. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think that the combination of capacitors you have now is something special and your Havana will sound absolutely wonderful!!!!!!!!


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## BORDELO

tveye said:


> For information,I've contacted MHDT Lab and they reply this:
> 
> *More than 50V is OK.
> So, 200V is OK>>*


 
 Thanks for info
 STEF


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## mako44

kimchee411 said:


> Put these babies in this morning


 

Congrats must be outstanding with Cast on output ! 

About Rike S caps (on c11 only) : after some burning in my initial impressions partly disapeard and emotion is here. I'm not 100% convinced, mainly because it doesn't perfectly fit with the rest of my system, but what blow me away is I don't have the impression to listen to a hifi system but music... Music that comes in front of me from my room.

What provides that ? Is it their ability to feel ambiances and atmospheres, the extreme purity/liquidity of their medium ?


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## loserica

mako44 said:


> After some burning in my initial impressions partly disapeard and emotion is here. I'm not 100% convinced, also because they don't perfectly fit with the rest or my system, but what blow me away is I don't have the impression to listen to a hifi system but music... Music that comes in front or me from my room.
> 
> What provides that ? Is it their ability to feel ambiances and atmospheres, the extreme purity/liquidity of their medium ?


 
 You mean the Rike? if so, I think that is dynamics (the dynamic range) of this capacitors. This creates quiet spaces in the music, quiet instruments are quieter, and louder notes are louder and more forward. S-Caps make the music to sound more natural and realistic compared to other capacitors. Auricap for example, sounded dry whereas S-Cap sound is lively and open with a more obvious flow and liquidity. I noticed a better transparency that makes the sound more realistic (but naturally at the same time). 
  
 I think you're right.
  
 After an additional break-in, you will see that vocals and instruments will be better defined and there will be an obvious balance between body, definition and this transparency.


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## mako44

Yes dynamics are great indeed, I guess feeling I was talking about comes from a combination of both factors.
  
 I really like natural and musicality of this cap, as I said despite tons of details my feeling is that I listen to music in a natural way and less a hifi system. My initial impressions regarding leanness and lack of impact are lessened and even if it could be  a bit better it's not a problem anymore. This week I was immerged into music, really pleasant.
  
 Unfortunately it's too neutral for the rest of my system. It's not cold but very/too neutral, a slight touch of warmth would make listening more pleasant/comfortable. The other thing is that transparency or this neutral balance highlights something I don't like in the sound of my amp, something a bit dry in the lows, vaguely sterile, difficult to explain. Make me think of the sound of a cheap cap, something like this. Could also be a problem of cables but with another slightly warmer, more colored, amp it disapears. I must make tests to understand that better.
  
 I think that with a touch more colors in the sound I would have kept Rike-s on c11 but now I'll try back Audyn TC to compare. Different qualities and defaults I guess, I still think perfect cap for me would be a 75% rike-s & 25% Audyn TC.


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## loserica

mako44 said:


> Unfortunately it's too neutral for the rest of my system. It's not cold but very/too neutral, a slight touch of warmth would make listening more pleasant/comfortable. The other thing is that transparency or this neutral balance highlights something I don't like in the sound of my amp, something a bit dry in the lows, vaguely sterile, difficult to explain. Make me think of the sound of a cheap cap, something like this. Could also be a problem of cables but with another slightly warmer, more colored, amp it disapears. I must make tests to understand that better.
> I think that with a touch more colors in the sound I would have kept Rike-s on c11 but now I'll try back Audyn TC to compare. Different qualities and defaults I guess, I still think perfect cap for me would be a 75% rike-s & 25% Audyn TC.


 
  
 Definitely they aren't break-in enough!!


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## mako44

Regarding which points precisely ?


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## loserica

mako44 said:


> Regarding which points precisely ?


 
 I was kidding Olivier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Anyway, the break-in is very important becouse I still perceive changes into sound. Transparency is incredible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I can not explain where they come instruments... I feel similar to, but only now really: it disappears hi-fi system and all that remains in the foreground is music. Just the music!!..
  
 PS: After 400 hours of break-in, you can say are starting to get into role these capacitors. So, you can notice a very good extension, a greater stage; vocals acquired that authority and texture which I expected it from these capacitors (considering its price).The greatest changes occurring now on midrange and low frequencies. Bass gets more firmly and stronger. Before was somewhat anemic to me. 
 Everything is open and played with much more precision and clarity. Coherence is incredible and there's nothing compared to what I heard before with Havana.


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## mako44

loserica said:


> I was kidding Olivier.


 
 Then it's not burnt in enough at all indeed  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. More seriously my Rike-s "just" has 150 hours but the problem I mentioned in my previous message is something I hear for a long time, it seems to be the moment to try to resolve it. I contacted my retailer, hope it will help.
  
 However tonal balance is slightly too neutral with Rike on my system, it's a pity. But it's a very nice cap.


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## loserica

I replaced today the capacitors marked by arrows (Black Gate 100uf/25V - F series) with four BG 220uf/25V FK series. These are probably the best for the analog stage section!!
 The change is VERY welcome: superior texture, better attack. With BG FK, vocals and instruments are rendered firmer, with more authority and superior extension. Surprising changes occur on the bass side. Here is more obvious what they do these capacitors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It is important to have the best electrolytic capacitors in this area (near the tube).


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## mako44

Thanks for this info Horace. Nothing new for the moment with me, I'm changing my cables with more high-end ones and will change my usb/spdif converter too because it seems those 2 elements were the reason of my sound "problems". With cables I tried I noticed an improved presence and richness in music that made Rike-s less "disapointing" on these aspects. I must make longer listenings and try back audyn TC to have a definitive opinion however. Will give you my thoughts back later !


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## loserica

I made the following changes today:
  
 - I switched Elna Silmic II (on the digital section) with Sanyo Oscon (470uF/16V);
  

  
 - Black Gate F series (100uF/25V) with FK series (the same value, 5 pcs.)
   About two weeks ago I changed the four Black Gate F series near the tube (100uF/25V) with FK (220uF/25V).
  

  
 Follows a little bit of burning-in ...
 The preliminary conclusions:  Black Gate FK are the best for the analog stage section while Oscon's works perfect for the digital stage section! 
 These upgrades have a strong impact. High frequencies are extremely detailed, medium & low frequencies have a consistent texture, they are meaty and rendered authoritative with a higher attack and pulse; very good energy and dynamics; There are highlighted the finest micro-details along the whole spectrum. The sound is more natural.
  
 I highly recommend Oscons there (higher capacity, minimum 470uF).
  
 I have implemented supplementary, ten Sanyo Oscons on the back of the motherboard (4,7uF, 10V; 10 pcs). Six were implemented on digital section and four on analog section of the dac. Usually Oscon's work perfect in the digital stage section, but in this case it was been necessary for extra micro-details.
  

  
 Havana is now the most transparent DAC that I have heard so far, even more transparent than ARC Dac7! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I like Havana more than DAC7 as timbre and harmonic texture. It is by far, one of the most realistic DAC that I've heard in my electrostatic headphone setup.
 It has just something special in its sound, but those Rike S-Caps and BG FK series are a must.


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## loserica

A very good review for Rike S-Caps: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/284863/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread/375


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## loserica

robeeert1 said:


> Your Havana looks great , FK are the highest grade of BGs, they are very rare these days. I didn't directly compare F with FK 1000uF in Havana, I only had 1000uf FK and  the improvement was great, BGs you can buy blind if the price is good even STD grade.
> 
> _So are you saying that you think BG FK is probably worth the large premium over regular BG F for 1000/16 and BG N >> BG F in the digital section?_
> 
> I think it is not worth it, but small differences can be heard between F, FK and N. (in digital section you better use N if possible).


 
  
 This is an older post. For me, the differences between F and FK series are very consistent.
 FK has a better texture (the richest), great definition/superior articulation and generates the blackest background. I can't imagine Havana without Black Gate FK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I have not felt the full effect of film capacitors (what is said about Rike S-Cap regarding the dynamics, texture and naturalness) until I installed these electrolytics.


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## s1rrah

Hey ...
  
 Does anybody know where I could source four replacement screws to hold the Havana cover on? Somehow, when tube rolling a bit back, I misplaced the four screws for the DAC cover....
  
 I've emailed MHDT but have never heard back ... so thought I'd try and find the screws myself ...
  
 Any information would be helpful.
  
 Thanks,
 Joel


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## supra28

Been using the Havana stock for nearly a year, and have been satisfied but now looking to get more out of it (upper end detail?) Would like to replace the easier parts first such astubes, chip, etc.. Please PM me if you have spares unused, or even if you have an already fully modded Havana that you're thinking of selling. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## supra28

Sorry! Where are my manners? More than a year ago, I purchased a second Havana looking to displace my Monarchy m22c in which the last attempt failed with a Benchmark DAC1. Without going onto the audio technical lingos, and repeat what has already been praised about this DAC. In stock form, the Havana is the most musical sounding I've heard. Deinitely hooked on NOS now! There are so many posts regarding modifications, and would take a lot of time for me sort out, but from the few that I've read, 1). Change stock Chip. 2) Tube 3) Fuse ? My chip is the J grade Japanese, how much is the K grade Japanese or Korean as these are not easy to source. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!


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## loserica

supra28 said:


> Sorry! Where are my manners? More than a year ago, I purchased a second Havana looking to displace my Monarchy m22c in which the last attempt failed with a Benchmark DAC1. Without going onto the audio technical lingos, and repeat what has already been praised about this DAC. In stock form, the Havana is the most musical sounding I've heard. Deinitely hooked on NOS now! There are so many posts regarding modifications, and would take a lot of time for me sort out, but from the few that I've read, 1). Change stock Chip. 2) Tube 3) Fuse ? My chip is the J grade Japanese, how much is the K grade Japanese or Korean as these are not easy to source. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!


 

 I had both of, the "J" Korean grade chip and the "K" Japanese chip. There are perceivable differences between all. But for me, speaking so subjective - differences are smaller compared to other changes like: film capacitors (0,1uF, 0,01uF, 0,22uF, 0,47uF) and all electrolytic capacitors. This is the really critical change for this DAC!
 I am one of those who made extreme changes (where I was able to make it..) and I can say that the differences between the stock and the full-upgrade version of Havana are high.
 But once again - it is my opinion confirmed by Robert, this DAC has a big minus on the bass side... Low frequencies appeared for me just as I wanted only after I replaced  all film capacitors and the most critical electrolytic capacitors with Black Gate *FK*!! After these, bass become much more authoritative, more vigorous, better defined.
 Once again: the differences between "J" - grade and "K" grade chips are really small compared with the change of capacitors. The fuse, doesn't matter (not relevant).
  
 PS: Don't forget about Sanyo OSCON in the digital stage section (large capacity)!! There are stock models that come without Oscons (on SPDIF interface), just as was mine.


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## supra28

Loserica, thank you for the pointers. I would like to replace the caps but don't have much experience with electronics. Do replacing the caps, require more than a steady hand at soldering?


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## loserica

supra28 said:


> Loserica, thank you for the pointers. I would like to replace the caps but don't have much experience with electronics. Do replacing the caps, require more than a steady hand at soldering?


 
  
 Did you have a friend who has done or practiced electronics?


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## TVeye

Supra28,
  
 If you are anxious about desolder/solder capacitors on the circuit board,you can expeiment easily and quickly caps rolling by using some tiny screw terminals.
 It's not the best solution for the sound,of course,but you can get a big improvement from the stock caps without taking any risk to domage the printed circuit.
 You must to cut the legs of the stock caps the shorter you can (near the caps) and use the cuted legs to connect the new caps with the screw terminal (if possible lug to lug connection with one screw only).
 With this method,you can experiment several capacitors (and values) until you find your favorite one and,finally,properly solder it to the circuit.
  
 If you want to start expermiments with cheaps caps,I recommend to you the russian K73-16 capacitors on ebay (63v must be ok for the havana but 100v or higer is safer).
 These capacitors are very inexpensive,sound way better than the stock caps and are easy to use in the Havana (small size and light weight for a russian capacitor).
 A good capacitance meter is usefull for pairs matching because you,ususally,need to buy a lot and measure it by yourself.
  
 I use this one and be quite happy with it,inexpensive,easy to use and accurate (and cool looking too):
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Latest-Capacitance-ESR-Inductance-Resistor-LC-Meter-NPN-PNP-Mosfet-M168-Soldered-/181334758798?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
  
  
 Loserica,
  
 I'm very interested by your electrolytic caps rolling in the Havana.
 I have the intention to replace the capacitors in the analog area with Black Gate (three FK serie 100uf 25 V for the critical ones and some Standard and PK serie for other ones).
 And use Sanyo Oscon SP in the digital area.
  
 I need your help to identify the two kinds of caps.
 Apart the fourteen BG capacitors in your dac,is there other capacitor to change in the analog area? How about the two bigger (50v) in the front?
 Is all the other electrolytics placed in the digital area ? (the 470uf in the back too?)
  
 Unfortunately,the Oscon SP don't exist in appropriate (stock Havana) voltage with the needed capacitance.
 Can I swap all the Muse caps with 16v/20v Oscon without risk to damage the Havana?
  
 Thank you,
 Eddy


----------



## loserica

tveye said:


> I'm very interested by your electrolytic caps rolling in the Havana.
> I have the intention to replace the capacitors in the analog area with Black Gate (three FK serie 100uf 25 V for the critical ones and some Standard and PK serie for other ones).
> And use Sanyo Oscon SP in the digital area.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mine two bigger in the front are Black Gate F - series (220uf/50v). They aren't so important compared to the others. BG F series are good enough here, I find them better from ELNA Cerafine or Silmic II. The most important electrolytic capacitors they are located near the tube and near the chips. Here the FK series is a must (IMHO).


tveye said:


> Unfortunately,the Oscon SP don't exist in appropriate (stock Havana) voltage with the needed capacitance. Can I swap all the Muse caps with 16v/20v Oscon without risk to damage the Havana?


 
  
 I would not do that! There is a risk to spoil the sound for a least...
  
 My advice is: put Sanyo OSCON *just* in these three locations as in the picture. I would not bet on Sanyo OSCON elsewhere.
 The capacitors on the left (marked with arrows) are for the usb interface, so the most important is the capacitor on the right if you use the SPDIF interface.


----------



## s1rrah

I happened to get my hands on a Stockholm V.2 DAC recently ... the one that MHDT bypasses the PCM56K DAC chips internal opamp on ... and it's far and away a better listen than the unmodded Stockholm v.1 and definitely the un modified Havana ... (mostly in regards to clarity, micro detail and especially sound stage!). Not sure if it's the bypassed DAC opamp, the larger power supply, the higher output voltage or what ... but it's quite noticeably better.
  
 Still not planning on modifying anything as I haven't the time nor $ ... but for what it's worth. The 2nd version Stockholm is _very_ nice.
  
 I'll be doing a short write up/review of it in the near future which will really only be supplemental to the fairly long review I did already for the 1st version Stockholm, but the differences are obvious enough that some sort of review needs to happen.
  
 The hotter output of the Stockholm v.2 is also a nice change ...
  
 More later ..


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## TVeye

Thank you very much for these advises Loserica.


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## supra28

tveye said:


> Supra28,
> 
> If you are anxious about desolder/solder capacitors on the circuit board,you can expeiment easily and quickly caps rolling by using some tiny screw terminals.
> It's not the best solution for the sound,of course,but you can get a big improvement from the stock caps without taking any risk to domage the printed circuit.
> ...



Sounds good! So if I can use basic functions with a DMM and use a soldering to solder\desolder then no problem right? Thanks for the advice!


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## supra28

Was wondering which DAC you guys are using for 24bit recordings?


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## s1rrah

supra28 said:


> Was wondering which DAC you guys are using for 24bit recordings?


 
  
 All 30,000 or so tracks in my library are 16bit. Not concerned with 192/24bit, really ... I've dabbled here and there ... but I really am not too impressed with the difference over 16bit ... (maybe my ears or gear is broke) ...  ... 
  
 The new v2 Havana receives 192/24bit just fine ... but the final output is still 16bit.
  
 MHDT Labs has another new DAC called "The Pagoda" ... which maintains the R2R design but outputs in 24 bit ... haven't heard it, personally.


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## supra28

Hey Joel, just noticed that you're a fellow Houstonian. I hear friends rave about 24bit, and kinda caught my curiosity . Maybe it would wise to jump to DSD instead. Have you tried the tung Sol 2c51?


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## s1rrah

supra28 said:


> Hey Joel, just noticed that you're a fellow Houstonian. I hear friends rave about 24bit, and kinda caught my curiosity . Maybe it would wise to jump to DSD instead. Have you tried the tung Sol 2c51?


 
  
 If your in to that sort of thing then sure, DSD would be the obvious direction to go.
  
 Personally? Having a music collection that I've quite literally been putting together since the 80's? High res listening, short of being a novelty, really isn't an interest of mine. Chances are I'm not going to be able to find Black Flag's earlier work in high res ... it's sort of a niche market, really, high res listening. Almost like something you have to seek out for the sake of seeking out high resolution music and not the music/content itself.
  
 Hell. I personally still feel that a good clean vinyl record sounds better than anything digital, 16 bit or otherwise.
  
 And yeah . . Houston is home ... for all of my 46 years. I live out close to Sugarland ... smack dab in the heart of "Chinatown" ... 
  
 Best,
 Joel


----------



## loserica

Guys, It has gone almost three months since I installed Black Gate *FK* (I got ten BG FK capacitors in mine Havana...) and imaging became so solid!! It is known that Black Gate requires hundreds of hours of burning. Havana equalized the DAC7 at details, stage presence, speed and timing. The bass is finally powerfull, very well defined and down below noticeably in frequency. BINGO !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The lower midrange has much more authority and energy. I waited for this more than four years...
 Everything sounds like I wanted: clear sound, excellent definition as I said, the piano sounds very natural and reliable; the sound texture became very rich and fleshy. Resolution and the microdynamics are incredible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 In the busy passages of the music and generally, the coherence level is exemplary. It has pace, rhythm, dynamics and a very good timing (which was not the case before). In the background it became discernible noises that I have never heard before in the songs that I listen every day. These micro details change a lot the feeling of listening.
  
 The highs on Havana are so special (the upercut treble are more present and better defined than ARC DAC7 or Lavry DA10). The highs are so detailed and it has excellent sense, airy and reliability. They are clear but never too bright.
 I do not know how much is due to Black Gate and how much to Sanyo Oscon in the digital stage section, becouse I installed them simultaneously, I can only say that it was a GREAT upgrade. One of the best, obviously.


----------



## bdh

s1rrah said:


> Chances are I'm not going to be able to find Black Flag's earlier work in high res ... it's sort of a niche market


 
  
 Oh, to hear Damaged on vinyl again...
  
 Digitization has sucked the life out of _every_ punk rock record I've ever heard.  Even with the crappy turntables and headphones we had back then.


----------



## kimchee411

bdh said:


> Oh, to hear Damaged on vinyl again...
> 
> Digitization has sucked the life out of _every_ punk rock record I've ever heard.  Even with the crappy turntables and headphones we had back then.


 
  
 So use a turntable?  They _are _still around...


----------



## bdh

I have one.  I just don't have the room to set it up, nor a desire to get back in the vinyl game for a variety of reasons.  It's mostly punk and classical I prefer vinyl with anyway--so not worth the hassle at the moment.


----------



## s1rrah

bdh said:


> Oh, to hear Damaged on vinyl again...
> 
> Digitization has sucked the life out of _every_ punk rock record I've ever heard.  Even with the crappy turntables and headphones we had back then.


 
  
 I agree.
  
 But as an alternative to Kimchee's coment ...
  
 Get decent 16bit recordings and any of the MHDT tube DACs and a decent amp and headphones (I use Stax 323S and SR404LE's personally, and this set up is pretty magic with the Havana DAC and currently, a Stockholm v2) ...
  
 The Havana and Stockholm are about the best counterpoint to vinyl that I've heard ... and here's the household's vinyl rig (my roommates which I've listened too extensively):
  
 ...
  

  
 ...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> Get decent 16bit recordings and any of the MHDT tube DACs and a decent amp and headphones (I use Stax 323S and SR404LE's personally, and this set up is pretty magic with the Havana DAC and currently, a Stockholm v2) ...
> 
> The Havana and Stockholm are about the best counterpoint to vinyl that I've heard ... and here's the household's vinyl rig (my roommates which I've listened too extensively):


 
  
 I'm going to be little off topic...
  
 I like how it sounds SR404LE with Havana. After I decided to change parts, I felt a slight loss of Havana refinement (that "analogue" feel into the music). It's hard to do this without affecting the initial sound balance. You increase the resolution and details step by step and you feel throughout the entire process that something fall behind. I don't know how to explain this..
  
 ..BUT, there was a time when everything returns in the beginning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For me this time coincides with the break-in of Black Gate. It's incredible what it's capable Havana at this level!! The good news is that it keeps the whole initial refinement and analogue feel.
  
 @Joel, have you ever tried eXStatA (the SS version)? Would be an improvement over the 323S.


----------



## s1rrah

loserica said:


> I'm going to be little off topic...
> 
> I like how it sounds SR404LE with Havana. After I decided to change parts, I felt a slight loss of Havana refinement (that "analogue" feel into the music). It's hard to do this without affecting the initial sound balance. You increase the resolution and details step by step and you feel throughout the entire process that something fall behind. I don't know how to explain this..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ...
  
 No .. I've not heard an eXStatA amp. I'm really happy with the 323S at the moment ... I'd have to hear one before actually investing. What do you like more about it?
  
 Further, I for one am totally pleased with the stock Stockholm v2 that I've been listening too for the past couple weeks. It's quite a leap in detail retrieval and resolution over the stock Havana DAC, which is a bit more "dark" sounding to me. Not sure if it's the different digital receiver in the Stockholm v2 or the fact that MHDT decoupled the DAC chips internal OPAMPS, but the Stockholm v2 is a much more refined listen to my ear. I'm currently beginning a bit of a review of this new Stockholm DAC and will post a word once it's done. 
  
 Also ...
  
 To Loserica (and any other Havana modders) ...
  
 If one were to upgrade JUST the output caps of a Havana DAC? What would you all say would be the best choice and why?
  
 Thanks...


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> No .. I've not heard an eXStatA amp. I'm really happy with the 323S at the moment ... I'd have to hear one before actually investing. What do you like more about it?
> 
> If one were to upgrade JUST the output caps of a Havana DAC? What would you all say would be the best choice and why?


 
  
 I've owned both, the eXStatA (SS) and Stax SRM-006tII. I've not heard 323S, but based upon my "Stax" experience I can make some logical deductions. eXStatA had the same texture as SRM-006tII, but better speed, resolution and presentation of microdetails, superior separation. These DIY amp are a very good solutions for Stax earspeakers. Certainly drive them better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ...not to be off-topic, there are some good references here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/462138/first-impressions-exstata-diy-electrostatic-amp


----------



## robeeert1

> If one were to upgrade JUST the output caps of a Havana DAC? What would you all say would be the best choice and why?
> 
> Thanks...


 
  
 Joel, Havana, Stockholm are in fact cheap DACs, what would I say in this matter? To get the best caps in the price range of the DAC itsefl? I would not recommned such solution. I recommend  Jensen copper foil PIO caps (check the dimensions first) which are decent priced and very analogue sounding ones... they will improve the performance not ruining your pocket..
 I don't think the differences like you say between Stockholm 2 and Havana are caused by opamps. PCM56's internal opamp is a very good one. The Stockholm v2 must have better contruction than Havana. It seems MHDT gets some experience in building DACs...


----------



## carmagff

Any comprasions between any MHDT DAC and Metrum Octave? It's really interesting because they are using the same NOS philisophy but very different realisation.


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> To Loserica (and any other Havana modders) ... If one were to upgrade JUST the output caps of a Havana DAC? What would you all say would be the best choice and why?


 
    Quote:


robeeert1 said:


> Joel, Havana, Stockholm are in fact cheap DACs, what would I say in this matter? To get the best caps in the price range of the DAC itsefl? I would not recommned such solution. I recommend  Jensen copper foil PIO caps (check the dimensions first) which are decent priced and very analogue sounding ones... they will improve the performance not ruining your pocket..


 
  
 I'm trying an answer based on my experience. 
  
 You are close to the truth, Robert. Your old Havana was very well upgraded and was similar to mine (both we have used V-Cap CuTF, Black Gate N, F, some FK, K-grade BB chips, the same tubes, etc.). The differences between the stage where you stop before selling your Havana and these last upgrades that we have made (me and Eugene) are impressive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Believe-me! Havana it is capable of deep bass and very extensive highs and that transparency and microdynamics in front of which other dac's fades, but only if you realize the full upgrade; and this requires additional seven Rike S-Cap (0,1uF) and a few others FK Black Gates (and/or high capacity Sanyo OSCON). I admit that I have implemented supplementary supported by a friend, eight Sanyo Oscons on the back of the motherboard..
 The replace of film capacitors will not take the full effect without the best electrolytics for Havana. and the best electrolytics are, as you said, the BG *FK*!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 @Joel,
 If you want a decently DAC, those Jensen to the output would be the best solution; They have been personally tested by Robert.
 But if you want HIGH-END with Havana, you must to put inside the best parts: V-Cap CuTF, Duelund Cast PIO, Black Gate FK, Rike S-Cap, etc.. but remember, not just to the output caps, or elsewhere.. all parts! Everything has to be perfect.
  
 It depends to what wants each and of course, how much can investing. The full upgrade cost about $1700. This qualitatively exceeds its price components, this is undoubtedly.
 After the complete Black Gate FK break-in, the texture is gorgeous.


----------



## s1rrah

If anybody is curious ... here is a shot of the new Stockholm v2 DAC internals. 
  
 This is the board where they have bypassed the PCM56K's internal OPAMP section:
  
 ...
  

  
 ...
  
 Cheers.


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> If anybody is curious ... here is a shot of the new Stockholm v2 DAC internals.
> 
> This is the board where they have bypassed the PCM56K's internal OPAMP section:


 
 I see already some Black Gate and V-Caps there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...Oscon's are the best for the digital stage section, no doubt.
  
 @Joel,
  
 when you start a modding with this beauty?


----------



## brodacz

Hi!
 I have a question. May I use 0,10uF caps as a input capacitors? I have some Audyn TC 
 As a output capacitors they sound great (0,47) !


----------



## mako44

Sure you can. However if you already got Audyn TC on output I would try more neutral caps elsewhere too avoid a too typical result but Audyn TC are great ones so you would not be wrong anyway.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

I am doing some more upgrades on my Havana and I am ordering some Schottky diodes from PartsConnexion. I have read through this thread several times but can't seem to nail down the exact type to order. They have several types to choose from:
  
 1A 600V
 4A 600V
 5A 1200V
 6A 600V
 10A 600V
 10A 1200V
  
 Price ranges from $1.50 to $24.95 each. (I hope the cheaper ones are the best!)
  
 Which of these is the correct spec? I need 8 of them.


----------



## kimchee411

stephen murphy said:


> I am doing some more upgrades on my Havana and I am ordering some Schottky diodes from PartsConnexion. I have read through this thread several times but can't seem to nail down the exact type to order. They have several types to choose from:
> 
> 1A 600V
> 4A 600V
> ...


 
  
 I used 600V 2A from Mouser:
  
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cree-Inc/C3D02060F/?qs=D3QG1iK7FqhDcfNooQXNgA==
  
 That value is referenced as viable somewhere in this thread.  Works for me.


----------



## kimchee411

s1rrah said:


> If one were to upgrade JUST the output caps of a Havana DAC? What would you all say would be the best choice and why?
> 
> Thanks...


 
  
 My vote would go to Rike Audio S-Caps.  The depth of detail and separation and dynamics are incredible, and the tone is very natural as well.  The details do not come in the form of harsh, overly-highlighted highs, as some might fear from such a description.  It is a very well-balanced cap.  Exactly the injection the stock Havana needs, in my opinion.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Thanks for the Schottky info. Will those Rikes fit into the Havana? They look huge!


----------



## kimchee411

0.47 uF should fit.  They are smaller in diameter and length than V-Cap CuTF, which many of us have used.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

I was thinking of the 2.2uf for C33 and C35. They are 40mm X 40mm X 26mm.


----------



## kimchee411

stephen murphy said:


> I was thinking of the 2.2uf for C33 and C35. They are 40mm X 40mm X 26mm.


 
  
 You can use 0.47 uF instead of 2.2 uF with no ill effects.  I believe it was Robeeert1 who discovered this with V-Cap CuTF so several of us went with it.  Sounds great!


----------



## robeeert1

kimchee411 said:


> You can use 0.47 uF instead of 2.2 uF with no ill effects.  I believe it was Robeeert1 who discovered this with V-Cap CuTF so several of us went with it.  Sounds great!




0,47uF for outputs will do the great job... 
No higher values are needed in the case of Havana


----------



## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> My vote would go to Rike Audio S-Caps.  The depth of detail and separation and dynamics are incredible, and the tone is very natural as well.  The details do not come in the form of harsh, overly-highlighted highs, as some might fear from such a description.  It is a very well-balanced cap.  Exactly the injection the stock Havana needs, in my opinion.


 

 I agree, Eugene.  S-Caps are very neutral and create the feeling of capacitors disappearance (without caps)...Instrument and voice tonal colours are very slightly enhanced over no cap. I think, they are the best for Havana in this price category. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They works very well in this DAC! If I had more money, would have changed all film capacitors with Duelund Cast PIO. If Rike sounds so good, I imagine how would sound Duelund. Would be close to perfection, IMHO..
  
  ... however, Rike & V-Cap CuTF = audiophile delight.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

For some reason my Havana is giving me the red light and blue light at power up and won't go beyond that. It has been fine in the past. Can anyone tell me what the red indicates? Digital signal or electrical issue?


----------



## Stephen Murphy

Turns out it was a digital issue. One of the contacts on my spdif cable came loose. Soldered it back on plugged in and green light is back!


----------



## robeeert1

Extremely modded Havana DAC


----------



## s1rrah

robeeert1 said:


> Extremely modded Havana DAC


 
  
 What happened to the power supply?


----------



## loserica

Hey Guys,
 I noticed that not only "Partconexion" have Duelund Cast PIO at reasonable price.
  
 For eg. here is sufficient stock now:  http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/castdccu010-022uf-630v-duelund-cast-copper-stock-p-9111.html
  
 Based upon my experience with Havana I would like to try Duelund one day,  not for output (here I'm fully satisfied with V-Cap CuTF). Actually I want to make a comparison between CuTF at 0,22uF and Duelund. "PIO" capacitors are one of the best for Havana. It shown me how much naturalness and what a solid image giving to the sound.
  
 I would not change never the Rike S-Caps for 0,10uF capacity!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They give exemplary dynamics and have a great texture. I'm so satisfied with this DAC. I like it more than ARC DAC7 as I said before. The fully up-graded Havana it was an excellent choice that I no longer regret. Duelund it's just a curiosity, a caprice, not a necessity. Thank's!


----------



## redcat2

loserica said:


> Hey Guys,
> I noticed that not only "Partconexion" have Duelund Cast PIO at reasonable price.
> 
> For eg. here is sufficient stock now:  http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/castdccu010-022uf-630v-duelund-cast-copper-stock-p-9111.html
> ...


 

 Just a side note, i have purchased from hificollective and parts connection, both been ok, but one guy i use that does not get a lot of mention on here is Michael Percy Audio he has been great over the years at tracking down parts.


----------



## paulluvsmusic

It's a sickness modding this dac. My Havana 





[/IMG]


----------



## s1rrah

"FrankenHavana!" ...lol ...that thing looks rad!!


----------



## paulluvsmusic




----------



## s1rrah

paulluvsmusic said:


>


 
  
  
_*IT'S ALIVE!  IT'S ALIVE!! ...*_
  
 lol


----------



## paulluvsmusic

Things kinda got out of control with all the modding but it's been a fun journey. It really does sound amazing though . Would be interesting to do a comparison with a unmodded Havana . I'll be kickin myself if I can't hear a difference!


----------



## loserica

paulluvsmusic said:


> Things kinda got out of control with all the modding but it's been a fun journey. It really does sound amazing though . Would be interesting to do a comparison with a unmodded Havana . I'll be kickin myself if I can't hear a difference!


 
 Be seriously! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 What capacity have Duelund to the output? Thank's!


----------



## paulluvsmusic

The Duelands are 2.2uF on the output stage.


----------



## loserica

Quote:


paulluvsmusic said:


> The Duelands are 2.2uF on the output stage.


 

 Thank you for clarification. I'm asking what capacity  is right there and how it affects the sound. 2,2uF is HUGE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 compared to 0,47uF. I intend to change the output stage and the 0,22uF caps with Duelund also. As it described them Eugene, I think I will like more the CAST than V-Cap CuTF; but I wonder what capacity is the synergistic there?..
  
 Can you give us some details about the other components that you used them? It's impressive what I saw in pictures! Truly DIY...


----------



## paulluvsmusic

First I must clarify that the sound I chase is a more musical lush sound but still maintaining a sense of transparency and openess. I once had mundorf silver and oils in 0.22uF and also the two 0.01uF(which a still there) and 1.5uF for the outputs. What was achieved was a very black back ground, highly detailed more reference sounding. It was impressive at first but began to find it a bit to full on and fatigueing lacking a sense of flesh and bone fullness and musicality in my opinion. (Which I think is why I liked the Havana in the first place but I turned in to a more digital reference sounding dac). So my mission became clear I wanted to try and keep the detail and openess gained by the mundorfs but with a more musical tone. I started looking into vintage caps. Russian teflons and silvers , American vitamin Q spragues. Straight away I noticed tone was back . The vitamin Qs are lovely but a bit soft in the treble for me. I really liked the Russian caps. There are many in my dac now. K40Y-9 0.1uF in UU1 , T-3 0.22uF in C10 C29 C30 C21, K72n-6 0.33uF in C11(this one sonically is amazing in this spot,wouldn't have any other). Mundorf silver/oil in C13 C14. All electrolytics are Elna silmic II's and Blackgates. I also beefed up the power caps . The four big black caps you can see along the front are Elnas. The Duelands are great caps but I still question the price. I find some of the Russian caps a much better cheaper option. Don't get me wrong though, those Duelands are going anywhere, I love them. 
 I could keep going on about other mods but I will leave it that for now. Hope this helps. One last thing all systems react different to changes. My system consists of a Cyrus transport , Cyrus power supply , my modded Havana , Audio Space 300b set amp , my home built speaker cabinets 1800x600x600 12" goodmans of England's midrange, fountek ribbon tweeters and 15" Richard and Allan's . Two of my other friends have similar efficient systems power by 300b set amps all owning Havana dacs. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.


----------



## loserica

Quote:


paulluvsmusic said:


> First I must clarify that the sound I chase is a more musical lush sound but still maintaining a sense of transparency and openess. I once had mundorf silver and oils in 0.22uF and also the two 0.01uF(which a still there) and 1.5uF for the outputs. What was achieved was a very black back ground, highly detailed more reference sounding. It was impressive at first but began to find it a bit to full on and fatigueing lacking a sense of flesh and bone fullness and musicality in my opinion. (Which I think is why I liked the Havana in the first place but I turned in to a more digital reference sounding dac). So my mission became clear I wanted to try and keep the detail and openess gained by the mundorfs but with a more musical tone. I started looking into vintage caps. Russian teflons and silvers , American vitamin Q spragues. Straight away I noticed tone was back . The vitamin Qs are lovely but a bit soft in the treble for me. I really liked the Russian caps. There are many in my dac now. K40Y-9 0.1uF in UU1 , T-3 0.22uF in C10 C29 C30 C21, K72n-6 0.33uF in C11(this one sonically is amazing in this spot,wouldn't have any other). Mundorf silver/oil in C13 C14. All electrolytics are Elna silmic II's and Blackgates. I also beefed up the power caps . The four big black caps you can see along the front are Elnas. The Duelands are great caps but I still question the price. I find some of the Russian caps a much better cheaper option. Don't get me wrong though, those Duelands are going anywhere, I love them.


 
 Thank you for these detailed informations. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think you achieved a very analog sound. You said before "things kinda got out of control with all the modding". What do you mean exactly? In other news, if you want to maximize the quality some Black Gate FK near the tube are like fresh air. If I understand what do you mean, mine Rike S-Caps make an exemplary work on dynamics. They control everything very well..
 Good luck and many pleasant auditions!


----------



## loserica

This is still for sale:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-changed-in-a-very-extreme-way


----------



## s1rrah

First USA based person gets it for free.
  
 One NOS AEG 5670 tube.
  
 I have two since Robert has been so gracious with various trades and so I thought I'd give one away to a random Havana user.
  
 This tube rivals (if not bests) the venerable Bendix 6385 tube. Very similar sound signatures ... 
  
 First USA Havana user with decent posts/time on the forum, gets it.  
  
 Let me know yo!!
  
 ...


----------



## Lorienblack

Any chance your generosity would extend over the pond? I have the bendix, a 1964 production, so could provide a direct comparison. 

Happy to cover postage cost :0


----------



## s1rrah

Only USA folk for now .. thanks for the interest, though. 

 Seriously, it's nearly the same as the Bendix 6385 tube .. my  head-fi friend, Robert sent me this and he said it himself that it's a Bendix killer ..
  
 ./...


----------



## Amish

(I'm not a Havana user so I'm out) Just wanted to say this is cool of you. Hey who doesn't like free 'anything'? lol
  
 I've just started reading up on this brand after seeing your post. It would seem AEG didn't make tubes but bought tubes from another manufacturer(s) and had their branding placed on them. Do you have any idea who made it?
  
 I use a Bendix in my MHDT Labs DAC and though I've only been using it for a day I'm liking it a lot. If this sounds just like it and at a fraction of the cost then that would be a killer tube.


----------



## robeeert1

amish said:


> I've just started reading up on this brand after seeing your post. It would seem AEG didn't make tubes but bought tubes from another manufacturer(s) and had their branding placed on them. Do you have any idea who made it?


 
  
 GE made this tube for special order in the 90's.
 It really sounds good, comparable to Bendix 6385, but Bendix is better made and longer life tube.


----------



## Amish

Ahhh cool. I have a few GE tubes. They all sound pretty good.


----------



## che15

I will take the tube if still available!
Thanks


----------



## zilch0md

Hey guys,
  
 I started reading this thread this morning, but made the mistake of fast-forwarding to the end, only to discover there's a whole lot of modding going on.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  (To good effect, apparently!)
  
 Can someone please take a stab at itemizing the most popular mods and stating what each of them does in terms of audible improvements over the stock Havana?
  
 I was just about to order one but now, I really want to know what I'll be missing if I don't mod it.
  
 For context, let me add that my goal is to achieve a warmer, less edgy and sibilant sound, without losing any resolution, that what I'm getting with the following chain:
  
*FiiO X5 PCM1792A Line Out > OPPO HA-1 amp section, balanced out > HD800*
  
 If I get the Havana, I would use Coaxial Out from the X5, as follows:
  
*FiiO X5 Coaxial Out > MHDT Havana > OPPO HA-1 amp section, balanced out > HD800*
  
  
 I'm basically trying to move my HD800 in the direction of an LCD-2 signature, without a loss of resolution or sound stage.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Right now, the X5 Line Out into the HA-1's amp is already easier on my ears with the HD800 than when using the HA-1's ESS9018 DAC.
  
 Thanks!
  
 Mike


----------



## s1rrah

zilch0md said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I started reading this thread this morning, but made the mistake of fast-forwarding to the end, only to discover there's a whole lot of modding going on.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Man. Just buy the Havana and worry about modding it later.
  
 You will LOVE it with the HD800. It's practically a dream DAC with that headphone and also any Grado. The stock Havana is a brilliant, smooth and completely musical DAC that I don't think anyone could fault other than those that have already improved it via mods.  Totally a winner for the money.

 You won't be missing out on anything by going with the stock Havana ... 
  
 And reading about the mods should just inspire you to discover what more the already awesome stock Havana can do by modding it down the line.
  
 I used a stock Havana for years with all sorts of Grado headphones and also the HD800's. I now use a completely stock MHDT Stockholm v2 (which is an improved version of the NOS/R2R Havana design and which costs a bit more. I've been tempted to mod on many occasions but have always just settled on the already excellent qualities of the stock DACs.
  
 Get one. You won't regret it ... 
  
 EDIT: coming from the Fii0 source? Oh man ... you will be floored .... 
  
 Joel


----------



## s1rrah

amish said:


> Ahhh cool. I have a few GE tubes. They all sound pretty good.


 
  
 It won't be that good with a balanced havana as you would need two of them ...


----------



## Amish

s1rrah said:


> It won't be that good with a balanced havana as you would need two of them ...


 

 Well considering I own a MHDT Pagoda I don't think i need to worry about it.


----------



## s1rrah

amish said:


> Well considering I own a MHDT Pagoda I don't think i need to worry about it.


 
  
 Indeed ... no worries. Tubes coming your way a bit after the holiday weekend.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## zilch0md

Hey Joel,
  
 Quote:


s1rrah said:


> Man. Just buy the Havana and worry about modding it later.
> 
> You will LOVE it with the HD800. It's practically a dream DAC with that headphone and also any Grado. The stock Havana is a brilliant, smooth and completely musical DAC that I don't think anyone could fault other than those that have already improved it via mods.  Totally a winner for the money.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for this post - I almost placed an order impulsively.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But I'm reading a lot of reviews on a lot of tube dacs, before taking the plunge... 
  
 Uggh!
  
 Mike


----------



## Amish

s1rrah said:


> Indeed ... no worries. Tubes coming your way a bit after the holiday weekend.
> 
> Enjoy!


 

 lol I'm confused. Are you telling me a tube is coming my way after the holiday? Or was that meant for someone else?


----------



## loserica

zilch0md said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I started reading this thread this morning, but made the mistake of fast-forwarding to the end, only to discover there's a whole lot of modding going on.
> 
> ...


 
 You will lose a lot of micro details and resolution and dynamics with the stock. With the best capacitors on the market Havana improves the level of resolution and details (but keeping the sound balance, that typical NOS tonality &texture) and compete with $2.500-3.000 converters. This is the difference.


----------



## zilch0md

loserica said:


> You will lose a lot of micro details and resolution and dynamics with the stock. With the best capacitors on the market Havana improves the level of resolution and details (but keeping the sound balance, that typical NOS tonality &texture) and compete with $2.500-3.000 converters. This is the difference.


 
  
 Thanks!  That's valuable info.  I had concluded from a lot of other reading (since making my post above), that the stock Havana and Havana 2 will degrade resolution, so you're opinion is in good company, confirming what I'd read elsewhere. 
  
 I'm now thinking about amps to cure the HD800, instead of DACs...
  
 Any day now, I'm going to get so burnt out on research, I'll just put the HD800 up for sale and pretend they doesn't exist.


----------



## Lorienblack

Hi guys - I have some Russian K75-24 caps 2.2uf and 400v left over from a previous DIY venture. Would they be viable candidates to use at output? 

The voltage rating is much higher, but from reading some previous posts on this thread there seems to be some consensus that this is not a problem.

Any thoughts? 

Many thanks.


----------



## robeeert1

lorienblack said:


> Hi guys - I have some Russian K75-24 caps 2.2uf and 400v left over from a previous DIY venture. Would they be viable candidates to use at output?
> 
> The voltage rating is much higher, but from reading some previous posts on this thread there seems to be some consensus that this is not a problem.
> 
> ...


 
  
 In the case of capacitors higher voltage is always better.


----------



## Lorienblack

FWIW the Russian Caps sounded pretty dire, very dark and somewhat compressed. Swapped them out for a pair of Aurica, same spec as stock, and they have promise. A little more snap than the stock but not as open and airy, I'll give them some more time and report back if something blooms.


----------



## Ern dog

Hi everyone,
I have the Stockholm V2 and so far I upgraded tube and chip. My next move is to try the r core transformer upgrade, but I need a little help. I'm sure this has already been covered, but I didn't read all 165 pages of this thread. 

1- what specs do I need for the r core? I don't want to buy the wrong one.
2- I have no clue how to solder. Suggestions on where to send it? I live in southern Oregon.

Thanks,
Ernie


----------



## s1rrah

ern dog said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have the Stockholm V2 and so far I upgraded tube and chip. My next move is to try the r core transformer upgrade, but I need a little help. I'm sure this has already been covered, but I didn't read all 165 pages of this thread.
> 
> 1- what specs do I need for the r core? I don't want to buy the wrong one.
> ...


 
  
 I'm pretty sure the Stockholm v2 will use the very same R Core as the Havana ... but others might want to speak up or you might want to contact MHDTlabs personally and ask Juin about it.  You can contact MHDT Labs @ *mhdtgang@yahoo**.com*
  
 I know from speaking with Juin that the Stockholm v2 uses a larger stock toroidal power supply than the Havana does but I believe the R core transformer (see below) in question is significantly more powerful than the Havana, anyway ...
  
 Here is the transformer that folks have been using in their Havana's (surprising how cheap it is) ... this can be set for either 115 (usa) or 230 (europe) volts...
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/115V-230V-30W-high-quality-Audio-R-Core-Transformer-15V-15V-9V-9V-/130708821508?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item1e6eda5604
  
 ...
  
 Otherwise, regarding the mod work and after you research everything ... the folk at Hotrod Audio are very good and will do just about anything you need. Call them on the phone or email them, they have always gotten back with me very promptly:
  
*Hotrod Audio Mods *
 ...
  
 Best of luck. 
  
 I've had a Stockholm v2 in the house for about four months now and really dig it .. completely stock ... I've had all sorts of MHDT DACs but have never modded them ... they work fine for me as is ...
  
 joel


----------



## Ern dog

Thanks Joel! Very helpful info.

Also, if I decide to muster up the courage to do this myself, are there any instructions already posted somewhere?


----------



## s1rrah

ern dog said:


> Thanks Joel! Very helpful info.
> 
> Also, if I decide to muster up the courage to do this myself, are there any instructions already posted somewhere?


 
  
 No ... not that I know of.
  
 Read the thread and hit up some of the elite modder guys who have already done it.
  
 I would not go blindly in to it.


----------



## redcat2

Go to page 100 , 101 you will find information you are looking for there.


----------



## PearlyWhiteZ

loserica said:


> This is still for sale:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-changed-in-a-very-extreme-way


 
 I don't understand why you are selling this DAC if you claim to have made such amazing progress.   Is there something it's still not doing for you or are you just wanting to try something else?  Perhaps a Stockholm or a Pagoda?  Your enthusiasm for modifying this DAC is contagious and thank you for your constant updates.


----------



## loserica

pearlywhitez said:


> I don't understand why you are selling this DAC if you claim to have made such amazing progress.   Is there something it's still not doing for you or are you just wanting to try something else?  Perhaps a Stockholm or a Pagoda?  Your enthusiasm for modifying this DAC is contagious and thank you for your constant updates.


 

 Hi,
 I had a very pleasant surprise after I sold ART Legato, becouse currently I use Havana on the USB input with AQ Coffee connected directly to iMac (OS X Mavericks) and Logitech Media Server & Squezelittle. The sound is better (for me).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I still can not believe it. 
 I thought to buy Audiophilleo 2, but very seriously, I'm very satisfied with Havana without transport: better texture, better micro details, better resolution. Probably something has an influence in this respect, becouse Havana reacts very, very positive to those Hi-End capacitors ( I mean Rike S-Cap, V-Cap CuTF and Black Gate FK series)..
  
 If you notice, I put everything on sale and I am not interested for another DAC becouse Havana sounds VERY good. I think I need the money for other hobbies. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers,


----------



## habo66

Hi, I just joined so this is my first post here.
 Eng is not my first language so excuse me if I don't write everything correct 
  
 I have now Lampizator's "high end 3.0" kit with tube psu + Lampucera 2.0 board with pcm1798, upgraded with Mundorfs, Oscons, Jantzens, Belleson regulators...
 It's a great dac for the money, but it also took some time to complete it. 
 Since I'm kind a puristic minds, I'm searching for pure NOS, non OPAMP dac, for cca 1000 usd.
 There are two dacs which I believe will suit me, MHDT STOCKHOLM mk2 (or Pagoda) and METRUM ACOUSTICS OCTAVE mk2.
 I want to ask you if maybe someone already made direct comparison or can tell me what's the major difference between those two.
 Which one is more "puristic", more natural, organic, non fatigue, analog sounding ? I like tubes...
 Any comment is more than useful.
  
 Thanks, Gasper, Slovenija EU


----------



## loserica

Hi,
 I hardly took a final decision and I put Havana on sale at a decent price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




:
  


  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/690772/mhdt-lab-havana-fully-upgraded-v-cap-cutf-rike-s-cap-elna-silmic-ii
  
 Thank you!


----------



## robeeert1

killer price  - good luck with the sale


----------



## Amish

I would really love to try out the Havana sometime. I own the Pagoda but since I never heard any of their other DACs I have no idea how it compares. I assume the Pagoda is more natural sounding ref. type DAC as mine is very transparent and really blows me away. But damn I wish I knew someone with the havana or stockholm v2.


----------



## Lorienblack

amish said:


> I would really love to try out the Havana sometime. I own the Pagoda but since I never heard any of their other DACs I have no idea how it compares. I assume the Pagoda is more natural sounding ref. type DAC as mine is very transparent and really blows me away. But damn I wish I knew someone with the havana or stockholm v2.




I have one for sale with top notch bendix and jj tubes. £350


----------



## s1rrah

habo66 said:


> Hi, I just joined so this is my first post here.
> Eng is not my first language so excuse me if I don't write everything correct
> 
> I have now Lampizator's "high end 3.0" kit with tube psu + Lampucera 2.0 board with pcm1798, upgraded with Mundorfs, Oscons, Jantzens, Belleson regulators...
> ...


 
  
 You will like the Stockholm v2 ...


----------



## Amish

..


----------



## Amish

lorienblack said:


> I have one for sale with top notch bendix and jj tubes. £350


 
 haha I didn't mean that I want to buy one.
  
 That would be kinda a step back I would think. Just would love to try one out at a meet though. Get an idea of the differences between it and my Pagoda.


----------



## loserica

I put on sale a very good Black Gate capacitors on e-bay:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Gate-N-series-electrolytic-capacitors-47uf-50V-lot-of-3-pieces-/271706980503?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f42ff8097
  
 Those are very good near the chips:


 I have also the very good "FK" series at a decent price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Thank's.


----------



## Amish

What is your favorite tube for this DAC? I'm thinking about rolling some new tubes into it and hear what happens. Right now I have the stock tube and NOS Bendix 6385.


----------



## s1rrah

amish said:


> What is your favorite tube for this DAC? I'm thinking about rolling some new tubes into it and hear what happens. Right now I have the stock tube and NOS Bendix 6385.


 
  
 I use the Bendix too ... it's my main go-to tube. But try the AEG ... it's great:


----------



## redcat2

amish said:


> What is your favorite tube for this DAC? I'm thinking about rolling some new tubes into it and hear what happens. Right now I have the stock tube and NOS Bendix 6385.


 

 Bendix 2C51 & 6385, 1955 is my favorite, i like the 55 over the 64, which you see a lot off i am currently running a Bendix 2C51 55 year which i just love, i also do like Tesla 6386 with a D gator.


----------



## Amish

Thanks guys. My Bendix is a 1964 actually. I paid pretty good money for it but if I'm honest I don't think it is that great. It sounds good but it is not a tube I would buy again. I would buy an earlier one though. I've heard from multiple people, yourself included that the pre 1960's Bendix tubes sound better.


----------



## loserica

s1rrah said:


> I use the Bendix too ... it's my main go-to tube. But try the AEG ... it's great:


 
 Yes, it is true: AEG 5670 is almost as good as Bendix 6385. Differences are not big, Bendix provides a wider sound-stage and a little more details, while with AEG 5670 the sound is slightly better articulated and somehow perceive that you are closer to instruments. I like both tubes, are the best for Havana IMHO.
 I would take into account this offer:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEG-5670-2C51-396A-6CC42-4pcs-/291333370673?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43d4d27331


----------



## brodacz

I have the bendix, aeg, but like the most 6N3P-dr


----------



## joespride

Traded my centrance dacminicx to try out the havana, and I have a bad hiss in the right channel, Connected via usb using the same cable I used with the centrance so I dont think it is cable related...............I read earlier on in this thread about a noise issue did anyone ever find a solve ??
  
 I have a spdif converter on the way and will try that I also have new tubes on the way and will try that but I dont think this is tube related
  
 any insight appreciated


----------



## jkorten

Sounds exactly like a bad tube. Not a cable problem, also the USB to S/PDIF converter in the MHDT works great. I would not recommend an external one or you'll have to invest $$$ in a really good coaxial cable.


----------



## kimchee411

brodacz said:


> I have the bendix, aeg, but like the most 6N3P-dr


 
  
 Gotta say that's the first time I've heard that before, lol.  I do think the 6N3P-DR is underrated though and it is up there on my list.
  
 I rotate b/w AEG, Bendix 6385, and Bendix 2c51 depending on music and mood.  AEG I think is the most well-defined with good tonal balance but a little thin by comparison, 6385 (overall favorite) big deep sound with great bass but not as rich and warm as 2c51, 2c51 richest but can be a little closed in by comparison with a little less detail than the other 2.
  
   


redcat2 said:


> Bendix 2C51 & 6385, 1955 is my favorite, i like the 55 over the 64, which you see a lot off i am currently running a Bendix 2C51 55 year which i just love, i also do like Tesla 6386 with a D gator.


 

  
 What is it about the 55 6385 that you like over the 64?  
  
  
 Quote:


joespride said:


> Traded my centrance dacminicx to try out the havana, and I have a bad hiss in the right channel, Connected via usb using the same cable I used with the centrance so I dont think it is cable related...............I read earlier on in this thread about a noise issue did anyone ever find a solve ??
> 
> I have a spdif converter on the way and will try that I also have new tubes on the way and will try that but I dont think this is tube related
> 
> any insight appreciated


 
  
 Try flipping L/R RCA outputs and see if the hiss moves to the left channel.
  
 Can you test SPDIF or TOSlink interfaces for the same problem?
  
 Do you have another tube you can try?


----------



## kimchee411

jkorten said:


> Sounds exactly like a bad tube. Not a cable problem, also the USB to S/PDIF converter in the MHDT works great. I would not recommend an external one or you'll have to invest $$$ in a really good coaxial cable.


 
  
 It works, but it's not great.  I think a USB-SPDIF converter is money well spent, but it wouldn't be my first priority.  Tubes, then the big output caps first IMHO... the the laundry list goes on and on.  A good glass TOSlink cable like the Wireworld Supernova series is a good interim solution if one can't go direct SPDIF.


----------



## joespride

Waiting on 6 tubes to show up, 2 rca, 2 1956 ge, and 2 raytheon windmill, also already bought amusical fidelity v-link192 for a great price so I will update all this when those arrive meanwhile the seller is being cool so if I find it is a tube issue etc...... I will update
  
 It is weird at low volume with music playing it cannot be heard, stop the music and turn up the volume the hiss gets progressively louder in the right channel only, once the dac decides nothing is playing I get a click and silence (the last part I assume the dac auto disconnects with no signal after a few seconds) Soundwise I like it but noise with headphones is a killer. I actually find it very much like the centrance is SQ (no wow factor)


----------



## redcat2

kimchee411 said:


> Gotta say that's the first time I've heard that before, lol.  I do think the 6N3P-DR is underrated though and it is up there on my list.
> 
> I rotate b/w AEG, Bendix 6385, and Bendix 2c51 depending on music and mood.  AEG I think is the most well-defined with good tonal balance but a little thin by comparison, 6385 (overall favorite) big deep sound with great bass but not as rich and warm as 2c51, 2c51 richest but can be a little closed in by comparison with a little less detail than the other 2.
> 
> ...


 
 The difference between the 55 and the 64 is this, i found that the 64 sound a bit itchy in the vocals and overall sound where the 55 where just smooth, i all so found in close inspection of the tubes there was a difference in the build that appears in the positioning of the gator been lower down in the 55 years, i noticed this on the 6385 & 2c51 tubes. I will take some photos latter today if i have time.


----------



## joespride

? regarding dating the WE396a
  
 am I correct in assuming that the 4 number code stamped on the side would indicate year and week
  
 IE.........5926 would =week 26 of 1959
  
  
 If this is wrong please advise how I would date these b-4 purchasing 1
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## joespride

Regarding the noise issue on the right channel
  
 New tubes and the noise remains
  
 spdif noise remains
  
 usb noise remains
  
 different pc and cd/dvd player noise remains
  
 different cables noise remains
  
 So From reading I believe I have a chip issue, Does anyone know where I could source replacement chips ??


----------



## joespride

HA..........................swapped the chips and the issue moved to the left side.......................chips are available on ebay
  
 SWEET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kimchee411

joespride said:


> HA..........................swapped the chips and the issue moved to the left side.......................chips are available on ebay
> 
> SWEET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
  
 Good work!  You can buy the Malaysian K grade chips from Mouser:
  
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/PCM56P-K/?qs=wgAEGBTxy7kKv9XLkJKGqg%3D%3D
  
 There have been several reports of Chinese fakes on eBay, I would avoid.  If you want the best sound, the Japanese K grade chips are where it's at.  I think the way to ensure authenticity is to buy an old CD player and pull them.


----------



## joespride

Thanks for the link, I will take a look..................I will also look for old cd player / players, I saw an ad about all the counterfit chips and I certainly dont want those


----------



## joespride

Setting here digging Patricia Barber, Modern Cool...................sounds great, no sibilance, great detail, I have noticed that it excells at what i will call inner detail, those little things in the music we are not supposed to hear, Listening to Bruce Springsteen We Shall Overcome, Oh Mary Dont you Weep. I could hear a conversation going on at the beginning of the song, Cymbals sound like cymbals as they decay (not static) voicing is very natural 
 
Bass is surprising for a tube dac very deep with impact although not the final word in tightness not what I would call muddy but maybe just barely sloppy
 
High end is very nice, not bright at all but nicely extended, cant speak to soundstage as I am using headphones but imagery seems nice with good seperation
 
Very Musical, though seems to be best with jazz, acoustic, folk, some milder rock


----------



## joespride

Replaced the chips and that solved the noise issue on the 1 ear but now I get tube hiss above a certain volume point, I have tried 7 different tubes and the hiss remains with all of them, I am thinking the replacement pcm56p chips (no grade J, K, L etc...) are my new PITA
  
 MHDT will not respond to emails have tried emailing from various pc, with various email addess. apparently they are like most companies today start out good with customer service and once established forget all about the service portion of the business
  
 I really hate to keep buying unknown quality chips as it can get quite expensive over time
  
 anyone else experience tube hiss with havana ??


----------



## joespride

Tube hiss seems to be resolved, not sure if it was the chips burning / settling in but 1 of the raytheon windmill getter tubes I have has no Hiss,  Finally heard back from mhdt, messaged them through ebay and they answered...........supposed to be sending me replacement J chips, (that is what came in this less than 10 month old DAC
  
 I feel like I may have found a happy place with my all tube set up now
  
  
 running J-River to my musical fidelity v-link 192, to Havana with the raytheon windmill, to my Kenzie Headphone (Darling circuit) which is sporting a pair of 1943 Hytron D foil Getter 1626's and a 60's Raytheon 2c52........................to the HE500's,   SQ is Very nice now acoustic is intoxicating with a very healthy dash of Detail / Inner Detail, nice deep bass (surprising at times), The highs just shimmer through decay. Mids are sublime very organic, currently not noticing any harshness (before this tube combination I felt like some of the faster paced busy music would take on some grain)
  
 I must admit although I have no desire to perform a full blown mod I am curious about the upgraded output cap mod and wonder if that would further improve upon the sense of grain with faster / busy music...........any thoughts on that ???


----------



## levlhed

loserica's monster in it's new home


----------



## joespride

any Impressions ??  What other dacs have you had ??


----------



## levlhed

I just put it into service tonight so it is still fresh on my ears.  And I actually have no other proper DAC to compare directly to as I'm coming from an upgraded ASUS Xonar STX doing to D to A duty.
 I can say I've got lots of experience listening to different systems in all different sizes and configurations with sources and environments so I know when something sounds good.  This does!
 I apologize that I can't give a "it is better than this but not as good as that" kind of opinion.  All I can say is that in my brief ear time right now that it lacks nothing and sometimes it is downright creepy how "real" it sounds.  But I must stress that I only just got it and I think it is impossible to grasp all the subtle stuff with out significant amounts of listening time.


----------



## loserica

levlhed said:


> I just put it into service tonight so it is still fresh on my ears.  And I actually have no other proper DAC to compare directly to as I'm coming from an upgraded ASUS Xonar STX doing to D to A duty.
> I can say I've got lots of experience listening to different systems in all different sizes and configurations with sources and environments so I know when something sounds good.  This does!
> I apologize that I can't give a "it is better than this but not as good as that" kind of opinion.  All I can say is that in my brief ear time right now that it lacks nothing and sometimes it is downright creepy how "real" it sounds.  But I must stress that I only just got it and I think it is impossible to grasp all the subtle stuff with out significant amounts of listening time.


 
 I think that you can enjoy this sound quality level for many years.


----------



## s1rrah

levlhed said:


> loserica's monster in it's new home


 
  
 Congrats!!!
  
 I can't even count how many intoxicated moments I sat nearly pulling the trigger on that thing .,..
  
 Enjoy it, man ... that sort of Havana doesn't come along often.


----------



## joespride

Thanks for the impressions, I am truly enjoying my stock havana I would be afraid to full out mod mine as I really like the sound signature, my only complaint would be a tad of grain when the pace fets fast and complicated it is like the dac cant keep up, Tube selection and chip burn in solved most of this and it is to a level I believe I could live with
  
 I may look at better output caps in the future
  
 Congrats on the unit


----------



## Stillhart

Hi all,
  
 I'm considering picking one of these up as it's one of the cheapest R2R DAC's around.  I have been looking at a bunch of other "modern" DAC's and I was wondering if anyone here who has the Havana can speak to how it compares to some of the other DAC's in the price range, e.g. the Gungnir, X-sabre, NFB-1, etc.
  
 For the record, I'll be using this with my LCD-2f and I listen to a lot of electronic, trip hop, metal and prog rock.  And I may or may not be upgrading to an LCD-X or HE-1000 (price-depending) as soon as I can afford them!  lol
  
 Thanks!


----------



## joespride

I have not heard any other R2R dacs, but compared to my previous, AudioGd 11:32, BiFrost Uber, Centrance DacMiNi, Modi,&47labs I can tell you the Havana sounds better
  
 More analog like, with superb inner detail and bass, nice extension as well


----------



## joespride

Weird phenom with Havana today
  
 I sourced a 1951 WE JW 2C51, plugged it in and it took like 45 seconds and some pecking on the top of the glass before it would light, after initial startup it now powers normally with turn on of dac
  
 Only thing I can think of is oxidation or ?? for the tubes delayed response, anyone else have an opinion or experience with this phenom
  
 The tube sounds fine, its just weird


----------



## Amish

Not sure but did you sand the pins? I clean the pins on all the old tubes I buy. I use a fine grit sandpaper and then clean them afterwards. Never had any issues with tubes.


----------



## joespride

No sanding or cleaning of any kind, which is why I thought maybe oxidation, Whats weird is the tubes were tested by the seller and you would think they would test off if it were a connection oxidation issue 
  
 getting some deoxit shortly


----------



## LjF

Stillhart - I've had an almost stock Havan for a number of years now -- also have a Metrum Octave. The Havana is nice, but gets fuzzy in the treble compared to the Octave. I had a Burson somnething or other for a month before I got the Octave and sold it because I preferred the Havana - more musical, better prat. Hope this helps!


----------



## s1rrah

Just a heads up to any Havana users ...
  
 I'm selling a NOS/NIB 1964 Bendix 6385 if anyone is interested.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/755669/nos-nib-bendix-6385-tube-1964
  
 ...
  
 I'll do $110 (+PayPal fee) for anybody from this thread ...
  
 International is fine, but you'll need to pay shipping (US shipping is free).
  
 Best ...


----------



## Amish

s1rrah said:


> Just a heads up to any Havana users ...
> 
> I'm selling a NOS/NIB 1964 Bendix 6385 if anyone is interested.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I own that very same tube. I can attest it's a fine one.


----------



## weitn

s1rrah said:


> Just a heads up to any Havana users ...
> 
> I'm selling a NOS/NIB 1964 Bendix 6385 if anyone is interested.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll take it. I bought a Pagoda a month ago and very pleased with it. I'll PM you.


----------



## che15

kimchee411 said:


> Gotta say that's the first time I've heard that before, lol.  I do think the 6N3P-DR is underrated though and it is up there on my list.
> 
> I rotate b/w AEG, Bendix 6385, and Bendix 2c51 depending on music and mood.  AEG I think is the most well-defined with good tonal balance but a little thin by comparison, 6385 (overall favorite) big deep sound with great bass but not as rich and warm as 2c51, 2c51 richest but can be a little closed in by comparison with a little less detail than the other 2.
> 
> ...


Any idea where I can find an AEG


----------



## brodacz

Here you have
 http://allegro.pl/podwojna-trioda-m-cz-5670-i5140674501.html
  
 I have one from this seller and everything is ok


----------



## s1rrah

The AEG 5670 has got to be the best tube value ever for these MHDT DACs ... didn't even know about it till I got one from Robeert a while back ... super good tube and in some ways just as good or better than the very expensive Bendix 6385 ...


----------



## brodacz

I have for sale few tubes:
 1. Bendix JAN-CEA 2C51
 2. Philips JAN 2C51
 3. Sylvania 2C51
 4. Tung-Sol (pair) 2C51
 5. Aeg 5670 
  
 Black Gate F 1000uF 16V 
  
 If somebody needs something please PM me


----------



## weitn

I have received the Bendix tubes which I bought from s1rrah and it has gone through break in for several days. It is a very good tube. The most important improvement for me is the naturalness and smoothness.


----------



## SebastianL

jkorten said:


> Well I am not that regular, but do have both the Steeplechase and the Pagoda. These two models by the way are the only ones that put out 24 bit resolution that is converted to analog. The Havana and Stockhom are 16 bit output format. So those are relegated to bluebook CD playback in my opinion. The Pagoda and Steeplechase are HD format capable (192kHz 24 bit). So I'd think that would be a worthy comparison. As I mentioned earlier, I have also a Rega DAC and a Mytek192. So I'm thinking of having a DAC shootout and my two audiophile buddies over to help discern differences and render in words. I have a fairly revealing system. Are there other qualifications for reviewing?


 


 Did you ever make that DAC shootout? I'm curious of what you and your buddies think.


----------



## jkorten

I did compare the Steeplechase to the Rega. Although the Rega has a very nice soundstage, there is so much more information that the Steeplechase retrieves that it wasn't really a comparison. (Rega too rolled off at the high freq.) In fact we didn't have to go back and forth more than once to determine that the Steeplechase was WAY better than the Rega.
  
 Keep in mind the Rega needs a USB to S/PDIF converter in order to play 192kHz files. This degrades the sound somewhat (have done a USB converter comparison using the CM6631A on my Pagoda). But this is a minor difference in sound compared to the overall difference between the Rega and the Steeplechase.
  
 The Steeplechase does not have the low frequency heft of the Pagoda. The Steeplechase has a somewhat synthetic kind of sound compared to the Pagoda. The Pagoda has a true hi end sound of silent capability. High frequencies are effortless and wonderful and the bass is powerful and has an immediacey. My buddy brought over an M1 (Musical Fidelity) and couldn't believe how effortless the Pagoda sounded in comparison (complex passages with strings in classical music he could follow easily on the Pagoda, not so much the M1).
  
 I use my Mytek for recording purposes and haven't really used it in my stereo system. I'll try this some day. No Linux driver for it, so it would not be in the running (or I guess I could use the outboard USB to S/PDIF converter again). But I'll try hooking up my laptop that runs windows with foobar and see if the Mytek driver works well enough to make a comparison to the Pagoda.


----------



## s1rrah

jkorten said:


> I did compare the Steeplechase to the Rega. Although the Rega has a very nice soundstage, there is so much more information that the Steeplechase retrieves that it wasn't really a comparison. (Rega too rolled off at the high freq.) In fact we didn't have to go back and forth more than once to determine that the Steeplechase was WAY better than the Rega.
> 
> Keep in mind the Rega needs a USB to S/PDIF converter in order to play 192kHz files. This degrades the sound somewhat (have done a USB converter comparison using the CM6631A on my Pagoda). But this is a minor difference in sound compared to the overall difference between the Rega and the Steeplechase.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This makes me want to buy a Pagoda.


----------



## SebastianL

jkorten said:


> The Pagoda has a true hi end sound of silent capability. High frequencies are effortless and wonderful and the bass is powerful and has an immediacey. My buddy brought over an M1 (Musical Fidelity) and couldn't believe how *effortless* the Pagoda sounded in comparison (complex passages with strings in classical music he could follow easily on the Pagoda, not so much the M1).


 

 Interesting. *Effortless* was the _exact _same phrase that instantly came to mind when I experienced two different discrete r2r-ladder dacs, the TotalDac and the Discreet Monica. Those two dacs made every other sigma-delta dac sound like they are struggling.
 I even owned the Discreet Monica for three months but had to send it back as I discovered a design flaw, making it distort with low level music such as solo piano. But the holographic 'house sound' was to die for.

 How does the Pagoda handle the fading notes of solo piano music? Any detectable distortion?


----------



## weitn

My MHDT Pagoda is producing hiss sound (high pitch) when I turn the volume on my Leben CS600 amp to 9 o clock. I am using LCD-3. The higher the volume, the louder the hiss. If I use my Harbeth M30.1 speakers, I start hearing the hiss at 12 o clock. The same apply here. The higher the volume, the louder the hiss.
    
 The hiss is interfering with the music and quite frustrating. If the Pagoda is not connected to my Leben CS600, the amp is dead silence even at max volume with LCD-3 or M30.1.
   
 I have tried changing the tube. Same hiss sound with the stock and Bendix tube. I have even tried disconnecting the USB or Toslink cable from my MacBook Pro just to make sure that the hiss does not come from my MacBook Pro.
  
 Have you guys experience the same issue before? I read some hum or hiss is cause by grounding issue. How do I test the grounding issue?


----------



## s1rrah

weitn said:


> My MHDT Pagoda is producing hiss sound (high pitch) when I turn the volume on my Leben CS600 amp to 9 o clock. I am using LCD-3. The higher the volume, the louder the hiss. If I use my Harbeth M30.1 speakers, I start hearing the hiss at 12 o clock. The same apply here. The higher the volume, the louder the hiss.
> 
> The hiss is interfering with the music and quite frustrating. If the Pagoda is not connected to my Leben CS600, the amp is dead silence even at max volume with LCD-3 or M30.1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Haven't  heard anything like that on any of the MHDT Labs DACs that I've used ...
  
 You should  contact Juin at MHDT via mhdtgang@yahoo.com and describe the issue to him; they are very responsive to problems like this and will most likely simply send you another unit immediately ...
  
 Good luck ...
 Joel


----------



## levlhed

I would suspect the issue is with the Leben, not your DAC.


----------



## robeeert1

weitn said:


> My MHDT Pagoda is producing hiss sound (high pitch) when I turn the volume on my Leben CS600 amp to 9 o clock. I am using LCD-3. The higher the volume, the
> Have you guys experience the same issue before? I read some hum or hiss is cause by grounding issue. How do I test the grounding issue?


 
  
 I guess you use a computer for audio. If so, try to put some distance between the DAC and the computer. The hiss should disappear.


----------



## weitn

s1rrah said:


> Haven't  heard anything like that on any of the MHDT Labs DACs that I've used ...
> 
> You should  contact Juin at MHDT via mhdtgang@yahoo.com and describe the issue to him; they are very responsive to problems like this and will most likely simply send you another unit immediately ...
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have sent an email to Juin and he replied is less than 10 minutes. That is really fast. He will be sending me a tested pc board for replacement.


----------



## weitn

levlhed said:


> I would suspect the issue is with the Leben, not your DAC.


 
  
 The issue only exists if the Pagoda is connected to my Leben CS600.


----------



## weitn

robeeert1 said:


> I guess you use a computer for audio. If so, try to put some distance between the DAC and the computer. The hiss should disappear.


 
  
 I use MacBook Pro as the source. I have even tried disconnecting the USB and Toslink cable and moving the MacBook Pro 10 feet away. I have also tried changing the power cable and plug and unplug Shunyata Venom Defender which I plug next to the Pagoda's power cable on the wall plug.


----------



## weitn

Set the hiss issue aside. Below is a photo of my Leben CS600 and Pagoda (far top). With the carefully selected 9 tubes (NOS Sylvania and Tung Sol KT120) in Leben CS600 and a NOS 1964 Bendix tube in Pagoda, I can confidently say that this system sounds natural, lush, sweet and musical.


----------



## robeeert1

Quote:


jkorten said:


> The Steeplechase does not have the low frequency heft of the Pagoda. The Steeplechase has a somewhat synthetic kind of sound compared to the Pagoda. The Pagoda has a true hi end sound of silent capability. High frequencies are effortless and wonderful and the bass is powerful and has an immediacey. My buddy brought over an M1 (Musical Fidelity) and couldn't believe how effortless the Pagoda sounded in comparison (complex passages with strings in classical music he could follow easily on the Pagoda, not so much the M1).


 
 I had a look at Pagoda. Great DACs inside, PCM1704. One of the finest DAC's chip ever made. There is a chance for a great sound.


----------



## zaccio

s1rrah said:


> I'd like the opinion of any of the more technically minded guys here ...
> 
> As you all know, I'm a long time user of the MHDT DACS ... the Havana for many years and now the Stockholm for the past two or so. I've used them in the totally stock configuration because this is adequate for me and I'm not a DIY guy (and I am just satisfied with the sound in general and so don't want to mess with it).
> 
> ...


 
 Hi *s1rrah, *
 I was also interested by the MP-D and was ready to order one for mods until I read this post http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
 As a former Havana owner (destroyed during an ultime mod...) you should consider ths DAC for serious mods


----------



## s1rrah

zaccio said:


> Hi *s1rrah, *
> I was also interested by the MP-D and was ready to order one for mods until I read this post http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
> As a former Havana owner (destroyed during an ultime mod...) you should consider ths DAC for serious mods


 
  
 Thanks for the link ... oddly, I was just reading that mod project thread a few days ago...
  
 Unfortunately, I'm without any mod skillz and so stick with stock configurations. I'm still really wanting to hear that MP-D as just about every review I've read is glowing.
  
 Also, it's interesting because unlike the Stockholm v2 that I currently use (and the Havana and Stockholm before that) ... the MP-D uses actual and true tube output as opposed to just using the tubes in a buffer stage. Even without any real knowledge of circuits one can deduce that this is going to yield a sound far truer to the particular tube one uses. Not that buffers are bad; I love my Stockholm v2 .. but I'm genuinely interested in hearing out the real tube output would sound when feeding my solid state Headamp GS-1 and Grado PS1000's.  It's also interesting that the DAC has two individual power supplies, one for the digital input and one for the analogue output ... 
  
 So I might just order one of these very soon ... glad you reminded me of it, totally forgot.
  
 Best
 Joel


----------



## weitn

I got to say that the service from MHDT is first class. Juin got ready a tested pcb board and sent it to me after I contacted him. He was easy to talk to and answered all my questions.
  
 Since last Friday was Easter Public Holiday, I was expecting to receive the package on Monday (today). However, the delivery man came on Saturday when I was not at home. He left a note at my door. So I picked up the package today at lunch time.


----------



## weitn

Took me 45 minutes to replace the old pcb with the new one. I took my time cause I don't want to break or miss anything. I am not a DIYer. So I got to say that this is the most challenging and exciting stuff that I have done thus far with pcb or electronics. Luckily I have all the tools needed to the get the job done. A Torx T8 for top, side and back covers. A Torx T10 for front cover. Screw driver and plier to remove and install the power transformer. Plier for removing and installing the pcb board to the base.


----------



## MoatsArt

Has anyone had a chance to compare the Stockholm side by side with the Havana.  Was the Stockholm clearly superior?  If so, how wide was the margin?
  
 Thanks
  
 Nathan


----------



## s1rrah

Stockholm v2 is a slightly more resolving DAC ... slightly more detailed; it still shares the warmish/NOS DAC qualities of the Havana but is not quite as "dark" sounding ... the main difference is that the Havana (both v1 and v2) use the DAC chips internal OPAMP circuit while the Stockholm v2 bypasses this altogether in favor of a fully discreet solution...
  
 Personally, I think you'd be happy with either but if your looking for an even more detailed look at the music then you might think about the Stockholm v2 or also the newest MHDT Labs flagship DAC, the "Pagoda" ... the latter being a true "24bit output" DAC ... (while the Havana and the Stockholm still output in a 16bit format)...
  
 You can see a detailed overview of all the MHDT Labs DACs at this page:  *MHDT DAC Families*


----------



## MoatsArt

Thank you
  
 Previously the Metrum Octave and Havana had been on my short list, but now I will also investigate the Stockholm 2 and Pagoda.


----------



## lukeap69

moatsart said:


> Thank you
> 
> Previously the Metrum Octave and Havana had been on my short list, but now I will also investigate the Stockholm 2 and Pagoda.




I'm interested on these too esp the Pagoda. Hope you buy one so we can get more impressions.


----------



## MoatsArt

He... it might take a while.  I'm getting an amp made at the moment that will consume by audio budget for the rest of the year.  Maybe (hopefully) early 2016.  I am currently at the "gathering data and impressions" stage.


----------



## lukeap69

moatsart said:


> He... it might take a while.  I'm getting an amp made at the moment that will consume by audio budget for the rest of the year.  Maybe (hopefully) early 2016.  I am at the "gathering data and impressions" stage at the moment.



Are you talking about Glenn's amp? I'm sure it will pair well with thr Pagoda. And of course, you may not be able to resist the urge that long... As they say here on some of the threads, you have two kidneys...


----------



## MoatsArt

Glenn's OTL?  Yes.  A hundred times "yes" - My dream amp for the T1s
  
 Two kidneys?  Once upon a time: an amp and a dac ago


----------



## lukeap69

moatsart said:


> Glenn's OTL?  Yes.  A hundred times "yes" - My dream amp for the T1s
> 
> Two kidneys?  Once upon a time: an amp and a dac ago  :tongue_smile:




Hahahaha. Nice one.


----------



## weitn

My Pagoda with new inside is now quiet. After leaving the Pagoda on for several days (with the stock tube of course) just to make sure the electronics parts inside are break-in, I am now back in my audio tube nirvana heaven.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hello gents (and ladies), I figured I'd check into this thread as the Paradisea thread is less lively.

I had a question about MHDT and their NOS dacs. I recently acquired a Paradisea 3 and still getting used to it but I'm getting clipping on some of my music. Particularly when the sound picks up and the volume is pushing, I've ruled out mastering as this clipping doesn't occur on my nfb12.

I've trIed 2 different tubes with no luck. It seems putting a limiter DSP on foobar helps some (-6db hard limiter) but not fully. Turning the vol slider down does help but I'd rather avoid this as it's digital attenuation. Otherwise the sound is clean but clipping is present.

Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Stephen Murphy

soundsgoodtome said:


> Hello gents (and ladies), I figured I'd check into this thread as the Paradisea thread is less lively.
> 
> I had a question about MHDT and their NOS dacs. I recently acquired a Paradisea 3 and still getting used to it but I'm getting clipping on some of my music. Particularly when the sound picks up and the volume is pushing, I've ruled out mastering as this clipping doesn't occur on my nfb12.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a Havana and it doesn't like files that suffer from clipping. I can open the files in Audacity, choose Show Clipping, and the peaks and valleys that "max out" are shown in red. When I use bit-perfect software to play these back, they cause trouble with the Havana and it pretty much plays as a clicking sound. The clicking sound can go away if I use different playback software. I would guess some software players round off maxed out values. If I edit the sound file and reduce the clipped area (in Audacity select the area apply Effect->Amplify->-.1) the clicking goes away altogether. 
  
 Files with clipping play back fine with other dacs but I have found the Havana doesn't do well with them. There are surprisingly a lot of commercially available files with clipping out there.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hi Stephen, thanks for the answer. Its not necessarily audio files with clipping in the mastering per say but more like when the sound really picks up or music with high dynamic range. Although I never ran my files through audacity to look for clips but I believe it's even good mastering (I presume) that have this issue with my Paradisea.

Also is the clipping from the DAC bad for amps? Or is that only when clipping occurs because an amp runs out of headroom? Someone told me clipping was bad for power amps but I believe they only mean when the amp runs out of power or the speaker goes beyond its ability.


----------



## ZachPtheDude

soundsgoodtome said:


> Hello gents (and ladies), I figured I'd check into this thread as the Paradisea thread is less lively.
> 
> I had a question about MHDT and their NOS dacs. I recently acquired a Paradisea 3 and still getting used to it but I'm getting clipping on some of my music. Particularly when the sound picks up and the volume is pushing, I've ruled out mastering as this clipping doesn't occur on my nfb12.
> 
> ...




I have yet to experience this problem with any of my recordings through my Paradisea 3


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

zachpthedude said:


> I have yet to experience this problem with any of my recordings through my Paradisea 3


 

 Interesting, it's been mentioned on multiple occasions about the DAC. I thought it was just how the DAC was. Are you able to get albums on the fly to test? I can name a few if you'd like to test it for me.

 Also how do you have your chain set up? What music player, etc.


----------



## ZachPtheDude

soundsgoodtome said:


> Interesting, it's been mentioned on multiple occasions about the DAC. I thought it was just how the DAC was. Are you able to get albums on the fly to test? I can name a few if you'd like to test it for me.
> 
> 
> Also how do you have your chain set up? What music player, etc.




Normally from Foobar to a musical fidelity v-link, optical out to mhdt paradisea with Tesla 2c51 tube, to a heavily modified Bottlehead crack, blue jeans cable RCA, audioquest a1 optical cable, diy power cables from an online retailer.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

zachpthedude said:


> Normally from Foobar to a musical fidelity v-link, optical out to mhdt paradisea with Tesla 2c51 tube, to a heavily modified Bottlehead crack, blue jeans cable RCA, audioquest a1 optical cable, diy power cables from an online retailer.



How are you able to get the V-link 24/96 to talk with the Paradisea? It's 24-bit in nature and doesn't seem to work for the Paradisea 3? At least in my case, hence me selling it at the moment. I may need to try Optical but to my understanding the 24/96 VLink upconverts even 16-bit to 24-bit.

Also can you snap a pic of the op amp you're using by chance?

--


After a bit of searching, I think another member directly contacted MHDT Labs and got this response:


adamwysokinski said:


> A lot of time has passed since the last message in that thread, but I'd like to ask OP one question - was you Paradisea clipping on every CD?
> 
> 
> I have found at least ~5 CDs in my collection that (probably due to mastering issues) are "clipping" on certain tracks. It sounds like a very short, unpleasant harsh distortion (like crackle). It is independent of volume. The easiest way to remove it is to use some kind of declipper and process the whole track - after doing so - the clipping is gone. Also, reducing volume in iTunes helps (not completely, though). I have contacted Mhdt and Jiun-Hsien said that it is related to mastering not hardware. Other (several hundreds) CDs play perfectly fine.
> ...


----------



## ZachPtheDude

soundsgoodtome said:


> How are you able to get the V-link 24/96 to talk with the Paradisea? It's 24-bit in nature and doesn't seem to work for the Paradisea 3? At least in my case, hence me selling it at the moment. I may need to try Optical but to my understanding the 24/96 VLink upconverts even 16-bit to 24-bit.
> 
> Also can you snap a pic of the op amp you're using by chance?
> 
> ...




You know, I wrote that I 'normally' use that setup because my computer is being repaired right now and I'm forced to use the usb input of my Paradisea. I only recently acquired the v-link, and between building my bottlehead crack, helping build a guest room and spring vacations I haven't had a chance to properly try the two out with each other. I will borrow a friends computer and get back to you.


----------



## Barra

Just bought a used Havana and it is supposed to be here on Thursday. It comes with the stock tubes (guessing the GE 5670 from the official site) and Tesla 6cc42. There is no power cord, so I will be starting off with a spare cheap computer power cord. My interconnects are cheap monster types as well. As a novice to tubes in general and this DAC specifically, does anyone have any pointers on getting it set up to work optimally?
  
*Notes*:

*Mjolnir*: I will be pairing it with my Mojo balanced to my LCD2.2s. It sounds bright as is so I am hoping to add some weight and tubey sound qualities to make it more musical. Has anyone tried this pairing? What amps pair well with the Havana?
*Headphones*: I have the HD700 and LDC2.2 that need some special care from the Havana.
*Tubes*: What tubes are a must have with the Havana, how do I get them, and what do they provide?
*Power Cords/Interconnects*: Do power cords and interconnects make any difference at all? If so, what? Doesn't the entire pathway have to be premium to hear the difference, or does the weak link still define the SQ?
*Tube Amp*: I have been watching the La Figaro 339 as a possible tube amp purchase. The person that sold the Havana to me told me that doubling put tube equipment was too much for him and was going SS in the DAC with a nice tube amp. However, the Paradisea paired with the Project Ember sounds awesome. Opinions?
*Speaker System*: I have some Maggies that I would love to pair this with. They are doing double duty in my theater system hooked up to a Marantz AV7702 to a Rotel RB-1090 at 1kW peaks at 2 ohms for a fairly beefy system. The system also sports a pair of high end subwoofers to complete the Maggies down low. Being in my theater, everything is tightly cabled making pulling the system apart a no go. I am considering using the front AUX1 component in to pass through the Havana audio to the amp. Am I missing something, or is this a good way to do this?
  
 Feel free to pick and choose what you answer as I don't expect anyone to know it all.


----------



## ZachPtheDude

barra said:


> Just bought a used Havana and it is supposed to be here on Thursday. It comes with the stock tubes (guessing the GE 5670 from the official site) and Tesla 6cc42. There is no power cord, so I will be starting off with a spare cheap computer power cord. My interconnects are cheap monster types as well. As a novice to tubes in general and this DAC specifically, does anyone have any pointers on getting it set up to work optimally?
> 
> *Notes*:
> 
> ...




I own a Paradisea 3, also using the Tesla 6CC42 (slightly modded, using 3uf solen caps at the output instead of stock 2uf, better low end response and clarity) and I absolutely love pairing it with my heavily upgraded Bottlehead Crack which I just so happened to put up for sale along with a bunch of extra power and input tubes. Feel welcome to check it out!


----------



## joespride

barra said:


> Just bought a used Havana and it is supposed to be here on Thursday. It comes with the stock tubes (guessing the GE 5670 from the official site) and Tesla 6cc42. There is no power cord, so I will be starting off with a spare cheap computer power cord. My interconnects are cheap monster types as well. As a novice to tubes in general and this DAC specifically, does anyone have any pointers on getting it set up to work optimally?
> 
> *Notes*:
> 
> ...


 
 Hello
  
 I pair my Havana with my Tube amp and my He500 and it is sublime, I totally disagree that pairing a tube amp with Havana is to much tube. In fact I dont feel like the Havana is overly warm / tube sounding, It certainly takes the edge off but its not what I would call warm
  
 I have tried NOS GE, Raytheon. RCA, Sylvania,, And am now very happy with the Je Western Electric 2c51 50's vintage............The raytheon Windmill Getter 5671 are also very nice, The stock GE sounded Grainy to me
  
 My tube amp is the Kenzie Headphone from ampsandsound.com give them a look they are super nice guys and the no feedback design pairs very well with NOS Dacs and is plenty of power / drive for the lcd 2 (I have a friend driving the lcd3 with the kenzie and he is in heaven)
  
 Enjoy, I Love my Havana


----------



## Barra

zachpthedude said:


> barra said:
> 
> 
> > Just bought a used Havana and it is supposed to be here on Thursday. It comes with the stock tubes (guessing the GE 5670 from the official site) and Tesla 6cc42. There is no power cord, so I will be starting off with a spare cheap computer power cord. My interconnects are cheap monster types as well. As a novice to tubes in general and this DAC specifically, does anyone have any pointers on getting it set up to work optimally?
> ...


 
  
  


joespride said:


> barra said:
> 
> 
> > Just bought a used Havana and it is supposed to be here on Thursday. It comes with the stock tubes (guessing the GE 5670 from the official site) and Tesla 6cc42. There is no power cord, so I will be starting off with a spare cheap computer power cord. My interconnects are cheap monster types as well. As a novice to tubes in general and this DAC specifically, does anyone have any pointers on getting it set up to work optimally?
> ...


 
 Thanks Guys, I have to say that so far I am loving my Havana. It does sound incredible with my friends Project Ember - double tubed - and nice with my solid state Mjolnir. However, I am considering trading my Mjolnir for a tube amp to get more tubey SQ and rolling options. My friends have various Eddie Current amps that sound wonderful, I am anxious to see what the pairing would do.
  
 The real surprise is how much I love it with my full sized Magnapan speakers. They need 1000 watts high current to be driven properly, so I am not sure if there are any tube amps that can drive that, or that I can afford if there are, but I would love to have the option. Regardless, my Havana provides a nice tube sound for all my solid state systems. But like many Americans, I am thinking that "MORES BETTER". Am I being silly?


----------



## Hauge

Has been lurking in here for half a year, reading, being inspired. - I have a Havana, witch i use for streaming/flac. It's equipped with LM Ericsson 2C51 and Russian PIO || Mundorf silver/gold. And i absolutely love it!

 Has not been trying it out against other separate dacs but it wipes the floor with all my CD's (except one) including Philips CD 860, Pioneer PD-S901 (upgraded with AD op amps), Sony CDP-XB720, and a few others. - The one it has not wiped out is a Marantz CD 63SE, witch is modified with LC audio's LClock, and other Burr Brown op amps. Those two, the Havana and Marantz, has something magical over them, that has just dismissed any other digital things tried out here...

 The Marantz has something about overall coherence, where the Havana is more dynamic (micro/macro) and therefore they supplement each other perfect in my system!
 After reading this tread, there's loads of inspiration as to what to improve on this little marble called Havana...

 Thanks to all contributors!!!


----------



## M3NTAL

What type of connectors do I need to get for the R-Core transformer swap?


----------



## Hauge

Try to have a look here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/2325#post_10014434


----------



## Hauge

hauge said:


> Try to have a look here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/2325#post_10014434


 
 And around here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1485 theres a lot about the R-Core mod... - Try a few pages back and forth.


----------



## BORDELO

Hello,
  
 a long time ago that I did not come here ... I'm still very happy with my tweaked Havana.
 I have since purchased others ( Stax Talent , Counterpoint DA10 ) for compete with. But, at the final, Havana is my favorite.
 Very very musical and pleasant gear.
  
 Now, i'm looking for one or two tubes AEG 5670.
 could someone tell me where to buy. I saw a link to Allegro but the seller has no more ...
  
 Thanks
 STEF


----------



## banquier

Does anyone know the difference between Havana and Havana V2?
 I heard good music tone about Havana but don't know about Havana V2.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1500_30#post_7912264

Does anyone know if this is possible with the Paradisea 3 and if it would be as beneficial? I've read that an r-core upgrade dwarfs changing caps in terms of gains.


----------



## s1rrah

soundsgoodtome said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1500_30#post_7912264
> 
> Does anyone know if this is possible with the Paradisea 3 and if it would be as beneficial? I've read that an r-core upgrade dwarfs changing caps in terms of gains.


 
  
 See this page for a comparison of the two DACs (and the rest of MHDT Labs DaCs as well):
  
 http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt%20dac%20families.htm
  
 ...
  
 That spreadsheet has everything on it.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Is this the right page? I don't see how this shows anything about transformer swaps. 





s1rrah said:


> See this page for a comparison of the two DACs (and the rest of MHDT Labs DaCs as well):
> 
> http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt%20dac%20families.htm
> 
> ...







soundsgoodtome said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1500_30#post_7912264
> 
> Does anyone know if this is possible with the Paradisea 3 and if it would be as beneficial? I've read that an r-core upgrade dwarfs changing caps in terms of gains.


----------



## s1rrah

soundsgoodtome said:


> Is this the right page? I don't see how this shows anything about transformer swaps.


 
  
 sorry guy ... my bad ... I meant to post this to a reply in the Havana thread ...
  
 (oops)


----------



## s1rrah

banquier said:


> Does anyone know the difference between Havana and Havana V2?
> I heard good music tone about Havana but don't know about Havana V2.


 
  
 Here is all the technical specs on the various MHDT Labs DACs ...
  
http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt%20dac%20families.htm
  
  
 ...


----------



## banquier

That is helpful! It seems like Havana V2 has almost exact same specs as Stockholm. Does that mean Havana V2 is no as musical as Havana?


----------



## s1rrah

banquier said:


> That is helpful! It seems like Havana V2 has almost exact same specs as Stockholm. Does that mean Havana V2 is no as musical as Havana?


 
  
 The one fairly significant difference between the Havana V2 and the Stockholm v2 is that the Stockholm does not employ any sort of operational amplification, being a fully discreet design ... whereas the Havana v2 uses the OPAMP that is built in to it's DAC chip ...
  
 Having heard both ... (I currently use a Stockholm v2) ... I have found the Stockholm v2 to be a cleaner, more detailed sound ... though still on the warm side of things as is typical of the NOS/R2R design in general.  The Havana comes across as noticeably a bit "darker" in tonality ... and a tad more "laid back" over all ... 
  
 Both DACs could be said to be very "musical," however ... and both are exceptional values.  Stockholm v2 .. a bit more detailed, slightly better bass ... the Havana v2 .. a tad darker with slightly less detail and a bit more "woolen" bass ... for my headphones (Grado PS1000's) I prefer the Stockholm v2 ... 
  
 That's been my experience, anyway.
  
 Best,
 Joel


----------



## banquier

Thanks Joel. I use to have a PS1000 as well. Unfortunately I traded it away.
 But just to further this valuable discussion: what do you think about other mhdt dacs?


----------



## s1rrah

banquier said:


> Thanks Joel. I use to have a PS1000 as well. Unfortunately I traded it away.
> But just to further this valuable discussion: what do you think about other mhdt dacs?


 
  
 I've used the Constantine, the Paradisea+, the Havana and Havana 2, the Stockholm v1 and Stockholm v2 and I've enjoyed every one of them and consider them all exceptional values. I think the sonic gains moving up the chain are right in line with what MHDT chooses to ask in so far as price increases go and in general, those gains are increased dynamics, increased detail/micro detail, clearer separation, etc. ... (really the sonic gains that any designer will typically go for).
  
 I haven't heard anything past the Stockholm v2 (ie > the Pagoda, etc.) but look forward to some day checking those out.
  
 That said ... I'm not too sure of how the Delta Sigma design (Pagoda) will differ in tonality from the typical MHDT tack towards NOS/R2R and so that's a big interest of mine; I'm *really* a fan of the very analogue sounding NOS/R2R design (MHDT Labs or any other, really) ... and I positively cannot stand "hyper detailed" ... or very "digital sounding" DACs.  I've played music live for many years and have spent decades viewing other musicians performing live and regardless of venue ... there is a certain quality to how live music/instruments sound ... and there are certain DACs out there that just don't sound anything like that certain quality in the least ... but to the contrary those certain DACS (won't name names) sound much more "mechanical" and/or "affected" in their portrayal of music (this most often manifests in ridiculously over emphasized highs).
  
 The NOS/R2R design generally does it for me, though ... which is why I've stuck with the MHDT DACS for so long (really, over the past seven or eight years, I've used nothing but MHDT stuff).
  
 I've also used primarily Grado headphones and have found the MHDT NOS/R2R DACs to be among the best I've ever heard with that particular line headphones (I've owned RS1's, GS1000's and now the PS1000's ... and though enjoying them all ... I vastly prefer the PS1000 over any Grado I've heard).
  
 Hope that helps...
  
 Joel


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

soundsgoodtome said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1500_30#post_7912264
> 
> Does anyone know if this is possible with the Paradisea 3 and if it would be as beneficial? I've read that an r-core upgrade dwarfs changing caps in terms of gains.


 
 BUMP


----------



## lukeap69

s1rrah said:


> That said ... I'm not too sure of how the Delta Sigma design (Pagoda) will differ in tonality from the typical MHDT tack towards NOS/R2R and so that's a big interest of mine; I'm *really* a fan of the very analogue sounding NOS/R2R design (MHDT Labs or any other, really) ... and I positively cannot stand "hyper detailed" ... or very "digital sounding" DACs.  I've played music live for many years and have spent decades viewing other musicians performing live and regardless of venue ... there is a certain quality to how live music/instruments sound ... and there are certain DACs out there that just don't sound anything like that certain quality in the least ... but to the contrary those certain DACS (won't name names) sound much more "mechanical" and/or "affected" in their portrayal of music (this most often manifests in ridiculously over emphasized.
> 
> Joel




I thought Pagoda is R2R not DS?


----------



## s1rrah

lukeap69 said:


> I thought Pagoda is R2R not DS?


 
  
 My bad ... I meant the Steeplechase ... just took a look at that spreadsheet and realized my error.
  
 I've heard from Pagoda owners that they really love it ... haven't heard anything about the Steeplechase, though.


----------



## ericr

soundsgoodtome said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1500_30#post_7912264
> 
> Does anyone know if this is possible with the Paradisea 3 and if it would be as beneficial? I've read that an r-core upgrade dwarfs changing caps in terms of gains.




Bump again


----------



## joespride

Back in the saddle again..................Sold Havana to supposedly upgrade to the Metrum Octave, while the metrum did offer higher rez. abilities and had more detail retrieval It was Flat , uninvolving, and I found it fatiguing.  I could not sell it fast enough I was so unhappy
  
 I got very lucky and sold Metrum and Havana Upgraded popped up on  FS Forums............Happy Havana Owner again..............I also compared the new Schiit Multibit Bifrost to Havana,  Schiit went away Havana remains still
  
 Happy Havana owner again


----------



## s1rrah

Welcome back, brother.
  

  
 Still with the Stockholm v2, here ... no desire to change from the MHDT Dacs in many, many years ...


----------



## joespride

Thank you,  Believe me its good to be back...............I wont be changing again.  The multibit Bifrost was the last Dac I had desire to hear Multibiit was supposed to offer nice warm tone instead I heard digital edge and got listener fatigue for my trouble,  Later I find out The Bifrost was a compromise design using  filters over discreet design for space savings (I felt like Schiit was using the success of the Gumby and Yggy to push Bifrost.............Then I find out the design compromises)
  
 Still Very happy with my Havana, when I bought it I recieved the R core transformer with it so I am wondering about the improvements,  Gotta find those connectors though and test it on the board before try install


----------



## s1rrah

joespride said:


> Thank you,  Believe me its good to be back...............I wont be changing again.  The multibit Bifrost was the last Dac I had desire to hear Multibiit was supposed to offer nice warm tone instead I heard digital edge and got listener fatigue for my trouble,  Later I find out The Bifrost was a compromise design using  filters over discreet design for space savings (I felt like Schiit was using the success of the Gumby and Yggy to push Bifrost.............Then I find out the design compromises)
> 
> Still Very happy with my Havana, when I bought it I recieved the R core transformer with it so I am wondering about the improvements,  Gotta find those connectors though and test it on the board before try instal


 
  
 I tried a couple Schitt amps a month or two ago ... a Valhalla 2 and an Asgard 2 ... I was looking for a back up amp in case my Woo WA6 SE or Mapletree Ear+ Purist ever developed a problem ... I really didn't like the Schiit amps too much ... maybe it's just cause it was their cheaper variety of amp ... the Valhalla 2 was absolutely terrible with my PS1000's ... bloated, distorted, etc.  The Asgard 2 was much better, even enjoyable but when comparing directly with my two main tube amps (the Woo and Mapletree amps), there was a giant lack of resolution and micro detail in the Schiitt Asgard 2 ..


----------



## Zarastro

I am considering to buy a dac from Mhdt but i haven't decided yet which. It is not an easy choice with so many to choose from, however i think Pagoda sounds very interesting. I had a dac with the 1704 chip in the past and i loved the sound of it so i guess i can say i have a positive predisposition.
  
 I have a question though for the owners of Havana or any other Mhdt dac. Is it possible to use other type tubes with a tube adapter?
  
 For example the Musical Paradise MP-D1 dac is using the 5670 family tubes but can also take ECC88 type tubes with the proper adapter.
  
 Right now i am using a DIY Hybrid (battery and normal power supply) NOS dac with 3x Philips chips and i love it, but i am looking for an upgrade.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm interested to see how the r-core is wired into the Havana. It's something I'd like to try on the Paradisea if possible. I believe the transformer wiring on the board is the same if not the same between the Havana and Paradisea.





joespride said:


> Thank you,  Believe me its good to be back...............I wont be changing again.  The multibit Bifrost was the last Dac I had desire to hear Multibiit was supposed to offer nice warm tone instead I heard digital edge and got listener fatigue for my trouble,  Later I find out The Bifrost was a compromise design using  filters over discreet design for space savings (I felt like Schiit was using the success of the Gumby and Yggy to push Bifrost.............Then I find out the design compromises)
> 
> Still Very happy with my Havana, when I bought it I recieved the R core transformer with it so I am wondering about the improvements,  Gotta find those connectors though and test it on the board before try install


----------



## joespride

I need to find the proper clips in order to install the R core..............So no help here, Sorry.  They show the install around page 100 of the thread


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Got a question guys, do these DACs require a +18 0 -18 or 0 +36 power? I got an Rcore and I want to do a swap but need some clarification from the earlier post.

 Thanks - Andrew


----------



## kimchee411

Here are the complete instructions for R-core installation:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1515#post_7912264
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/2010#post_8698555
  
 Make sure you read a few posts down in the 2nd link.
  
 This is my parts list for the connectors and terminals that go in them:
  

  
  
 The 2nd number in each line item is the manufacturer part no.  Don't worry if the pictures you see in the Mouser product page don't match what you're expecting.  The quantities I purchased were for 2 DACs + spares in case of screw ups.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I edited my post right when you replied.  I will run a meter to the cables prior to plugging in but I'd like to know if this is a +18v 0 -18v or 0 +36v configuration on the DAC side. I think it's the former 18 0 -18 but I want to make sure.

 Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Here are the complete instructions for R-core installation:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/1515#post_7912264
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/310441/mhdt-havana-dac/2010#post_8698555
> ...


----------



## kimchee411

soundsgoodtome said:


> I think it's the former 18 0 -18 but I want to make sure.


 
  
 Correct.  Splice both neutral wires of different color in the middle, so it's like 18 00 18


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

kimchee411 said:


> Correct.  Splice both neutral wires of different color in the middle, so it's like 18 00 18


 

 Thanks! I'm thinking of putting the RCore in an external box, running wires to feed the DAC from the sides and in effect not have to remove the torroidal to plug in and in the process removing the active transformer from the DAC. We'll see how far I get  The Paradisea may have to be a lab guinea pig

 Appreciate the Mouser part #s, I may try to source the parts locally. Wonder if Fry's would have parts like this...


----------



## mink70

No need for a standalone DAC anymore, so I'm selling my (stock) Havana, with a mess of NOS tubes and an extra faceplate, here on Head-Fi:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/795776/mhdt-havana-dac-with-many-nos-tubes


----------



## JoeDoe

Any Havana users out there using a tube amp as well? Wondering if this guy will synergize with my MAD Ear+ feeding my RS1?


----------



## ericr

Quite happy with the Project Ember tube Hybrid (via my Paradisea 3).


----------



## Barra

joedoe said:


> Any Havana users out there using a tube amp as well? Wondering if this guy will synergize with my MAD Ear+ feeding my RS1?


 
 It was absolutely wonderful with a loaner Eddie Current Zana Deux. My new Eddie Current Black Widow sounds very tubey, maybe more so that the ZD at times requiring a rethink of my tube choices, but still pairs wonderfully.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

The MHDT Dacs sound amazing going into a tube or hybrid amp. I've loaned out my project horizon but can't wait to get it back. The MHDT Dacs go well with SS as well but a extra special going into a tube. 





joedoe said:


> Any Havana users out there using a tube amp as well? Wondering if this guy will synergize with my MAD Ear+ feeding my RS1?


----------



## Barra

So,..... With tube rolling, is there an easy safe way to swap tubes besides removing the top? I hate having those tiny screws rolling around and parts exposed.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I just keep the top unscrewed but if you got little ones or pets that might like to pull on things, your best bet would be thumb screws.





barra said:


> So,..... With tube rolling, is there an easy safe way to swap tubes besides removing the top? I hate having those tiny screws rolling around and parts exposed.


----------



## Barra

Thumb screws are not a bad idea if I can find them that small.


----------



## ericr

For the last few weeks I've just been keeping mine finger tight.


----------



## M3NTAL

Does anyone have a photo of a finished R-Core swap with US Voltage?  The stock transformer has RED RED BLACK BLACK and nothing wired to the IEC inlet. Am I taking the middle RED / BLACK to the IEC?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

m3ntal said:


> Does anyone have a photo of a finished R-Core swap with US Voltage?  The stock transformer has RED RED BLACK BLACK and nothing wired to the IEC inlet. Am I taking the middle RED / BLACK to the IEC?


~pg 110 give or take, all your mod needs are a few pages after that. 

I believe it's the outside cables but you'll need to check. The red cable out of the r-core is for 220v only. When swapping to the r- core you'll have no voltage selection, you have to wire either 115v or 220v


----------



## Luckbad

Is this the definitive MHDT DAC thread? I'm considering getting one.
  
 How many folks here have compared them to some of the other R-2R NOS DAC offerings?
  
 The only I've owned is the Audio-GD NOS1704. Sounded great but was a little syrupy/soft for me.
  
 The Master-11 I have now can run in NOS mode and sound excellent as well, but much more detailed than the above.
  
 I'm looking for a NOS R-2R DAC for my work setup. Considering a DAC-19 and going NOS with it, but more recently (after failing to buy a Paradisea 3 from @Soundsgoodtome), I've been looking at MHDT, Monarchy, and some other DACs.


----------



## s1rrah

luckbad said:


> Is this the definitive MHDT DAC thread? I'm considering getting one.
> 
> How many folks here have compared them to some of the other R-2R NOS DAC offerings?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Havana 2 DAC isn't what I would call "syrupy" ... it is certainly a NOS/R2R design, and a well realized one in that it is on the warm side of the DAC spectrum with just gorgeous musicality and a non-fatiguing signature.  The MHDT Labs Stockholm v2 is technically a better DAC, continuing the musical ease evident in the Havana DAC but being a bit more resolving and detailed.  Both the Havana and Stockholm v2 DACs use the venerable PCM56P DAC chip (x2 in dual mono) and so even though capable of receiving input up to 192/24bit, they are both nonetheless limited to 16bit output (a simple limitation of the PCM56P chips). They are both excellent DACs and that statement is echoed in many glowing reviews both here and online in general; you'd be hard pressed to find anything online in the way of negative comments regarding either one.
  
 That said, I've been fortunate enough to have a MHDT Pagoda DAC  in my house for the past few months and can say it's a bit of a departure from both the Havana 2 and the Stockholm 2 DAC.  
  
 ...
  

  
_(that vertically aligned bit of gear in between the DACs and my amp is a Mapletree switch box that lets me instantly switch (A/B) between DACs while listening; very handy for comparisons...)_
  
 ...
  
 Though still a very musical, very classic sounding NOS/R2R design, the Pagoda DAC uses dual PCM1704 DAC chips in it's circuit as opposed to the PCM56P chips used in both of the above two mentioned DACS; this alone creates quite a different sound signature.  The PCM1704 chips in the Pagoda produce a much more detailed sound overall with markedly  more sparkly highs, slightly tighter bass and a more spatious, more airy sound stage presentation overall ... the PCM56P chips in the Havana 2 and Stockholm 2 on the other hand yield a slightly more musical, warm presentation that doesn't give quite the 3 dimensional imaging of the Pagoda.  I've been A/Bing the Stockholm v2 and the Pagoda DACs quite often for the past few months (in preparation for a review) and the differences are quite obvious. I love them both but I think either would best suit particular listeners with particular needs.
  
 Further, due to the usage of the PCM1704 DACs, the Pagoda can receive input up to 192/24bits and can maintain that 24bit stream all the way through output; it is a true 24bit capable DAC and when playing high resolution files, this makes a huge difference.  Clarity goes through the roof and detail/micro detail retrieval, sound stage and imaging really reach the "spooky" level. Another interesting bit of trivia is that, according to my reading online, the Burr Brown PCM1704 is the only option currently available for the construction of _non-oversampling_, true 24bit digital to analogue converters. It's today still recognized among many builders as the finest sounding, most musical DAC chip available today (some interesting reading regarding the PCM1704 can be found here: *Lessloss comments on PCM1704*.  
  
 I listen to primarily Redbook resolution FLACS and so the high resolution dexterity of the Pagoda isn't that important to me.  But even with Redbook listening, the Pagoda is a noticeably more resolving DAC ... as mentioned, that difference coming through mostly in noticeably more sparkle in the highs and a more airy/3D presentation.
  
 I listen through Grado PS1000's and I think I ever so slightly more enjoy the Stockholm 2 with them since the Grados are already high frequency sensitive but at times, and with other headphones, I prefer the more articulate, detailed Pagoda DAC.  
  
 Judging from your comments in your initial post, I would recommend trying to hear a Pagoda DAC if at all possible... sounds like exactly what your looking for.
  
 BTW: here's a handy spreadsheet showing the technical differences among all the MHDT DACs. You will note that both the Havana and Havana 2 still use operational amplification (OPAMP) in their circuit and so among all of the offerings, they are going to be the warmest and otherwise lack some of the overall resolution and clarity of the upper end DACs:  *MHDT Labs DAC Families*
  
 Best,
 Joel


----------



## Luckbad

Great info, thanks! I do love the PCM1704 sound. My main dac at home is an Audio-GD Master-11 and I've had 3 others with the chip. It does NOS mode rather well. 

I was hoping to spend a chunk less than the Pagoda, so I'm primarily looking at the Stockholm 2 and Atlantis. I've heard good things about the AD1862 but haven't heard a dac using one.


----------



## Luckbad

Think I'm biting on the Atlantis. It's a really good price for an AD1862N-J dac.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

This was yesterday at a mini-meet where we compared the Pagoda, Havana, and Paradisea 3. MHDT definitely has a "house" sound we were able to figure and that while these were generations apart, the Paradisea still had a lot to offer specially at the prices you're able to acquire one (if you can find one that is). Unfortunately my rig didn't succesfully implement an a/b/c switch due to a faulty optical splitter but we were still able to a/b two of three dacs at a time.

ericr has pioneered something exciting here. With an adapter from Jeremy at Garage 1217, we were able to use 6SN7 tubes on his Paradisea and we've also tried it on the Havana. My Pagoda was a baseline with the bendix 2c51 so we can get a better feel on sound changes the 6sn7 made and let me tell, those tubes on the MHDT Dacs is pretty magical. **disclaimer: I'm not associated with Garage 1217 but these adapters are not the same adapter for 6SN7 to the Project amps despite looking EXACTLY the same. Maybe ericr can chime in here as he knows a bit more on the adapter and where to get em. As far as I know, Garage 1217 is the only source for these properly pinned adapters.


----------



## Luckbad

Jeremy is awesome! What 6SN7 tubes worked well?

If I am able to get the Atlantis, I'll pick an adapter up. This DAC will feed my Garage1217 Project Sunrise III.


----------



## s1rrah

soundsgoodtome said:


> This was yesterday at a mini-meet where we compared the Pagoda, Havana, and Paradisea 3. MHDT definitely has a "house" sound we were able to figure and that while these were generations apart, the Paradisea still had a lot to offer specially at the prices you're able to acquire one (if you can find one that is). Unfortunately my rig didn't succesfully implement an a/b/c switch due to a faulty optical splitter but we were still able to a/b two of three dacs at a time.
> 
> @ericr has pioneered something exciting here. With an adapter from Jeremy at Garage 1217, we were able to use 6SN7 tubes on his Paradisea and we've also tried it on the Havana. My Pagoda was a baseline with the bendix 2c51 so we can get a better feel on sound changes the 6sn7 made and let me tell, those tubes on the MHDT Dacs is pretty magical. **disclaimer: I'm not associated with Garage 1217 but these adapters are not the same adapter for 6SN7 to the Project amps despite looking EXACTLY the same. Maybe @ericr can chime in here as he knows a bit more on the adapter and where to get em. As far as I know, Garage 1217 is the only source for these properly pinned adapters.


 
  
 Awesome.


----------



## ericr

The 6SN7 to 5670 adapter is the last item on the Garage 1217 parts page:

garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm


A while back I scored a killer deal on a Tung-Sol 6SN7 black round plate. It was a bit too warm for me in the Ember. The Havana owner was looking for more bass than the Bendix was giving so using the adapter we put the Tung-Sol in. Several of us liked the results. The adapter only came in on Friday but I did quicky run the Tung-Sol, a Sylvania 6SN7W, and a RCA side-getter GTA (or GTB, not marked) in one of my Paradisea 3. My initial impression was, unlike with the Havana, I stll favor the Bendix in the P3 as it gives the most detail.

The adapters Jeremy makes are fantastic quality and for $25 this one is a fun option to try, especially if you already own, or can borrow some 6SN7s.

DISCLAIMER: the 6SN7 heater current is 600mA. I could not find heater current specs for the MHDT DACs, though they support the 6385 which requires 500mA. Use the adapter at your own risk.


----------



## Luckbad

MHDT Labs Atlantis on the way! Well, paid for. Unless we get definitive info from MHDT regarding the 6SN7  adapter, I'm not picking one up. I did a bunch of investigating, and I think the MHDT dacs are likely fixed bias, which means they're likely dialed in specifically for the 5670 tube type. We might need to change out some hardware to use 6SN7s permanently (likely a simple soldering job, but still not something I want to approach at the moment).
  
 Should I make an MHDT Atlantis thread? It seems like this could just as easily be converted to an all-purpose MHDT thread in title since it seems to be already in function.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

There isn't really enough of us, we should just keep this thread and change the title. Is that possible? 

Congrats on the Atlantis, looking forward to your impression. The ad chips look promising!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

MHDT enthusiasts! I've created a tour of the Stockholm V2 I've recently purchased, sign-ups are open and 7 members will be picked on Feb 15th for the tour with a total of 10 members being on tour:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/797275/tour-mhdt-labs-stockholm-v2-nos-dac-tour-pcm56p-j-r2r-d-a-chips-bendix-2c51-tube-24-192-input

 Here's a great chance to listen to one of the newer offerings of MHDT Labs! Eligibility requirements posted on the page.


----------



## Luckbad

Has anyone done extended comparisons between the WE396A and JJ 6386?

As I wait for customs to clear my Atlantis, I keep looking at tubes. I realized I've spent more than $120 on WE396A / WE2C51 tubes just trying to find good ones. 

Makes the JJ seem less crazy.


----------



## Luckbad

Atlantis cleared customs. Coming soon. ..


----------



## Luckbad

Wife missed delivery. On the plus side, I'm getting my son's cold. If I don't go into work tomorrow, I'll pick it up at the post office.


----------



## ericr

Hmmm, is it OK to root for someone to come down with something?


----------



## s1rrah

luckbad said:


> Wife missed delivery. On the plus side, I'm getting my son's cold. If I don't go into work tomorrow, I'll pick it up at the post office.


 
  
 LOL ...
  
 Love how the development of your cold so neatly coincides with the arrival of new gear ...
  
 I get the same sorts of colds too.


----------



## Luckbad

Oh my goodness this is lovely! 15 minutes in and the MHDT Labs Atlantis is already delivering beautiful euphony directly to my soul. Instruments sound downright real, timbre is excellent, detail is not at all wanting.
  
 It's feeding my Master-11 with absolute authority. There's nothing like R-2R, and a well-implemented NOS dac is to die for. This thing is already blowing my mind a little bit.
  
 I dare say this NOS implementation is superior to the NOS of my Audio-GD Master-11 in NOS mode. Perhaps not equal to it in its stock 8x oversampling setup, but the jury is out. I haven't changed the tube for the Western Electric JW 396A/2C51 D-getters I picked up yet.
  
 More impressions later tonight after I get several hours of warm-up and listening in.
  
 Wow... The AD1862N-J chip is seriously great. I'd never heard a DAC with these chips before.
  
 This thing is positively diminutive compared to the Audio-GD DACs/Amps I've been using lately, which frankly is a great thing because I'm pairing it with a Garage1217 Project Sunrise III at work. The Audio-GD NFB-2.32 I had previously was quite excellent but was rather large.
  
 I actually downloaded Schiit's latest Gen 2 drivers for Windows 10. They're the same chipset (CM6631A) and appear to be newer than what is provided on the MHDT Labs website (which doesn't list Win 10 on any of its drivers).
  
 Plug and Play. Using ASIO successfully from JRiver right now.
  
 I just listened to Good Mystery in 96kHz, Blagutten in 192kHz, and Blue Eyes Blue in 44.1kHz. All sounded great.


----------



## s1rrah

luckbad said:


> Oh my goodness this is lovely! 15 minutes in and the MHDT Labs Atlantis is already delivering beautiful euphony directly to my soul. Instruments sound downright real, timbre is excellent, detail is not at all wanting.
> 
> It's feeding my Master-11 with absolute authority. There's nothing like R-2R, and a well-implemented NOS dac is to die for. This thing is already blowing my mind a little bit.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
**


----------



## Luckbad




----------



## s1rrah

luckbad said:


>


 
  
 I dig the type treatment ...


----------



## Luckbad

The work stack: MHDT Labs Atlantis -> Garage1217 Project Sunrise III -> JVC HA-DX2000
  
 Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin in the Amp, Western Electric JW 2C51 D-Getter in the DAC.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

luckbad said:


> The work stack: MHDT Labs Atlantis -> Garage1217 Project Sunrise III -> JVC HA-DX2000
> 
> Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin in the Amp, Western Electric JW 2C51 D-Getter in the DAC.


 

 This is an incredible chain for around 1K, accidentally realized the incredible synergy these two had when I showed up to a mini-meet @ericr 's office without an amp and he let me hook up one of his Project Embers in. Between Ember and PS3, the sound behaves quite differently between the DAC and amps (class-A vs class-D) but both very pleasing sound.

  


Spoiler: slight JVC derailment



How's that JVC HA-DX2000?!? Didn't realize JVC had released a phone to contend with the Fostex TH900s. Drivers mounted directly on the wood, very interesting!!


  


luckbad said:


> Absolutely! Especially if you're looking for something solid state with tons of versatility and a touch of tube sweetness.
> 
> I did a full review of the Polaris here: http://www.basshead.club/garage1217-project-polaris-review/
> 
> I really loved it, but wanted to be able to tube roll, so I moved to the Project Ember II and eventually settled on the Sunrise III.


 

 Lol, this was exactly what I did as well. Except I had the Ember II first, then went to the Polaris, then the Sunrise 3. Although I did settle for the Project Horizon 3 due to it's higher voltage and just a hair improvement (imo) for high impedance phones.


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## Luckbad

soundsgoodtome said:


> This is an incredible chain for around 1K, accidentally realized the incredible synergy these two had when I showed up to a mini-meet @ericr 's office without an amp and he let me hook up one of his Project Embers in. Between Ember and PS3, the sound behaves quite differently between the DAC and amps (class-A vs class-D) but both very pleasing sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've owned the Garage1217 Project Polaris, Project Ember II, and Project Sunrise III. I preferred the Sunrise the most. It gives the most tube sweetness of everything, though is less versatile than the other two. I settled on the amp a couple months ago as my primary amplifier for work.
  
 I've been searching for months for the right DAC for work. Schiit Bifrost Multibit, Audio-GD NFB-2.32, Emotiva Big Ego, and half a dozen others.
  
 After seeing your Paradisea for sale--a DAC I'd seen before and found interesting--then failing to buy it from you in time... well, I then looked into all of the MHDT offerings further and was pleasantly surprised when I found the Atlantis on eBay (but not their website!). The AD1862N-J chip is absolutely legendary, on the level of the PCM1704U-K in some circles.
  
 I already have the Audio-GD Master-11 with the PCM1704U-K chips, and it's amazing. I've always wanted to try Analog Devices' best chip, and the price was right.
  
 I also love NOS, or at least love the idea of NOS. I've owned a NOS dac before and tried several others either in NOS mode or at meets. They've always almost scratched the itch.
  
 The romance of the MHDT Labs gear finally tugged at me enough for me to bite the bullet and order one.
  
 Holy crap is it awesome!
  
 I've been loving the combination of detail and outright euphony that it provides. I'm a little worried I might get so addicted to the sound that I would consider selling the Master-11 (What?!) to get a clone of my work setup for home.
  
 To address the JVC HA-DX2000 comment: I went through several dozen full-size closed headphones to find the right one for work. The JVC HP-DX1000 is the one that finally did it for me. The DX2000 is just the anniversary edition of the same headphone. It has a significant bass emphasis, especially in the sub-bass. The mids are excellent, and the treble is very smooth and a bit rolled off, which is exactly what I want. It's a gorgeous and euphonic headphone now coupled with the DAC of my dreams and an excellent bang-for-the-buck tube amp.
  
 This setup is my work endgame for the foreseeable future. No more rolling through DACs like water. The dust has long since settled on the headphones and amplifier as well.
  
 The combination of musicality, capability, and relatively compact form factor (compared to some of my ridiculous choices) is absolutely ideal.
  
 I'm super happy with the Atlantis and want to thank all of the loyalists in this and similar threads for holding MHDT DACs up as great examples of both R-2R multibit offerings and non-oversampled goodness. The merits are not overstated.
  
 These deserve a place on the podium with the likes of the Schiit Bifrost/Gungnir Multibit and Audio-GD DAC-19. That MHDT is still somewhat unknown is a friggin' travesty.


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## chiman

Can't wait to listen to the Atlantis, thanks for the impressions so far luckbad!
Would the project Polaris be a good match do you think? Been looking at picking one up.

Thanks.


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## Luckbad

chiman said:


> Can't wait to listen to the Atlantis, thanks for the impressions so far luckbad!
> Would the project Polaris be a good match do you think? Been looking at picking one up.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 Absolutely! Especially if you're looking for something solid state with tons of versatility and a touch of tube sweetness.
  
 I did a full review of the Polaris here: http://www.basshead.club/garage1217-project-polaris-review/
  
 I really loved it, but wanted to be able to tube roll, so I moved to the Project Ember II and eventually settled on the Sunrise III.


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## Luckbad

I went ahead and created a general thread for MHDT Labs DACs since the OP of this thread has long since abandoned Head-Fi. Hopefully this isn't stepping on anyone's toes!
  
 I've included current drivers and manuals that I uploaded to Basshead.Club as well.
  
 I'd like to compile information, impressions, tube recommendations, and anything else that can be useful as a resource to MHDT owners and prospective buyers over there.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/798259/mhdt-labs-r-2r-nos-tube-dacs


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## Sechtdamon

Hey guys, i recently joined the club by buying Atlantis. Thanks to @Soundsgoodtome  This Topic is for havana originally but i guess it became main topic for Mhdt Lab as time passed.
  
 Anyway, I discover a problem with my new dac, it's usb keeps disconnecting, and sometimes when i power up only tube powers up. I told Jiun about problems. And he offered free board asap. Their customer service is really first grade. I just wanted to tell this to all potential buyers.
  
 Till obtaining Atlantis, i only used entry level (Hrt Ms II+ and Smsl M8) so its the best sound ive ever heard. I have been writing reviews in turkish but i guess i'll start to write reviews in here to, with my bad english ofc. 
  
 Anyway thanks for this topic. It was really helpful for me.


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## Luckbad

sechtdamon said:


> Hey guys, i recently joined the club by buying Atlantis. Thanks to @Soundsgoodtome  This Topic is for havana originally but i guess it became main topic for Mhdt Lab as time passed.
> 
> Anyway, I discover a problem with my new dac, it's usb keeps disconnecting, and sometimes when i power up only tube powers up. I told Jiun about problems. And he offered free board asap. Their customer service is really first grade. I just wanted to tell this to all potential buyers.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have two Atlantis dacs. Love the heck out of them!
  
 This is the new all-purpose thread for MHDT stuff:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/798259/mhdt-labs-r-2r-nos-tube-dacs
  
 As for the USB, it could be your computer's USB ports. I can't maintain connection to unpowered USB DAC-UP ports, for example. Using an UpTone Regen between them lets it stay connected forever without issue, as does changing it to a powered USB port.
  
 Sometimes turning the DAC on doesn't get a connection for me either, just a blue light and the tube. Usually turning it off for a few seconds and back on, it'll lock in fine (this only happens if I don't have a Regen, like the one I have at work).


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## Sechtdamon

luckbad said:


> sechtdamon said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys, i recently joined the club by buying Atlantis. Thanks to @Soundsgoodtome  This Topic is for havana originally but i guess it became main topic for Mhdt Lab as time passed.
> ...


 
  
  
 Well luckbad, when i mentioned my problems to Jiun, he immediately offered board replacement on the house. I'll try it first. I also get a cheap (musiland us 02) ddc too. My computer is multitasking, most probably best solution is getting a ddc anyway.  btw while deciding buying it, i read lots of your posts. You helped me unintentionally a lot too.  Also I subscribed new topic too.


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## chiman

Sechtdamon

When having this problem, were you turning the Atlantis on before your computer?

I've not had this problem if I let my PC boot first.

Where as if I turned the Atlantis on before my pc, not always but occasionally, it would cycle the blue LEDs then settle on USB, but produce no sound until it was turned off and on again.


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## Sechtdamon

chiman said:


> @Sechtdamon
> 
> When having this problem, were you turning the Atlantis on before your computer?
> 
> ...


 
 My problem is about microcontroller chip as Jiun diagnosed. Btw I always power up computer first. sometimes when I power up no lights blink and only tube gets powered.


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## SebastianL

I have my beloved Pagoda up for sale because I just purchased an r2r totaldac d1 dual.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/803285/mhdt-labs-pagoda-nos-r2r-dac


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## s1rrah

sebastianl said:


> I have my beloved Pagoda up for sale because I just purchased an r2r totaldac d1 dual.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/803285/mhdt-labs-pagoda-nos-r2r-dac


 
  
 Shoosh ... quite a price jump there ... just goes to show where one has to go after the MHDT DACs to get anything better.  LOL ...
  
 How much did you have to pay for the D1 Dual?  Those are such sexy DACS!


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## SebastianL

yes, quite a price jump. But the sheer production doesn't come cheap either since it's a true discrete resistor ladder design. Those Vishay Foil Resistors are at least $15 a piece. 200 resistors per stereo channel, you can do the math.
 Totaldac prices are here

 Delta-Sigma dacs just doesn't do it for me anymore. R2R is the only way to go IMO.


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## Torq

sebastianl said:


> yes, quite a price jump. But the sheer production doesn't come cheap either since it's a true discrete resistor ladder design. Those Vishay Foil Resistors are at least $15 a piece. 200 resistors per stereo channel, you can do the math.
> Totaldac prices are here
> 
> Delta-Sigma dacs just doesn't do it for me anymore. R2R is the only way to go IMO.


 

 So, I did the math ... and if that's what they're paying just for the resistors then there is no way they're making any money on that product.  The 400 resistors alone would be $6000 unless they're buying in bulk (and the price break for buying, say, 500 at a time, of the same value no less, only drops the price about 20%).
  
 Typically you need to price a product like that at 3-5x it's parts cost to make a reliable profit.  You can skinny that down some in a direct-sales model (no distributor/dealer margins).  In this case the d1 Dual has more than half it's _selling_ price taken up just with the _parts_ cost of the resistors.  Note that I'm not, by any means, saying they're not using those parts, in those numbers, just that I don't see how that's sustainable from a business perspective.
  
 With you on the R2R thing though ... even my best D/S based unit, which uses custom filtering via FPGAs, leaves me a bit cold in comparison now.


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## M3NTAL

Question for the cap rollers - if I wanted to upgrade just the 2 output capacitors and wanted to be under  ~ $170.00 for both - what route would you go?


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## Hauge

That would very much be up to taste... 
I took a K40y and put a Mundorf s/g/o over it. Can't remember the exact values...
It sounds quite sweet, and yet with all the inner detail i like...


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## Luckbad

1uF 200V K40Y-9 PIO

A nice matched pair will cost less than $20 shipped from Moldova. The red is supposed to be better than silver.

I dig them. That said, I'm always open to upgrades and will one day get some in the price range you're looking at


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## kimchee411

If anyone's out there, I'm selling one of my highly modified Havana DACs: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mhdt-havana-nos-tube-dac-heavily-modified.862764/


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## loserica

kimchee411 said:


> If anyone's out there, I'm selling one of my highly modified Havana DACs: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mhdt-havana-nos-tube-dac-heavily-modified.862764/



I wish you good luck


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## bimmer100

loserica said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Right now listen to a Bendix 6385 from '1964 and I'm really excited about how it sounds! (Apple iMac>>AR-T Legato>>Havana MAxx>>eXStatA by Alex Cavalli>>Stax SR-404LE "Limited Ed.")
> ...


Would you happen to have a pair of Bendix 64's you'd be willing to part with? would pay an asking price.


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## Konev

Hello!
Does anyone had experience to compare Havana (PCM56P-K) vs ADI-2 DAC or Hugo 2? Who will have won on 16/44,1 FLAC?
Thank you!


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## Jbucla2005 (Feb 14, 2020)

Currently liking an EH 6922 in the Havana with the adaptor, my fave tube so far. I’d describe the sound of this tube as liquidy and diffused. Nice.

edit: liking a JJ 6836 as well. These two are the nicest tubes for me.


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## Hauge

Got tired of the K40y Mundorf sgo combo, and dropped a Cu 0.7uF 100V Jensen in stead. No looking back... 
Any other still playing with these things?


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## Jbucla2005

I have a Havana and I modified the top plate so it can fit the 6SN7.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/183408276@N03/49971696336/in/dateposted-public/


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## kimchee411 (Jun 4, 2020)

Jbucla2005 said:


> I have a Havana and I modified the top plate so it can fit the 6SN7.
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/183408276@N03/49971696336/in/dateposted-public/



Whoa, is this plug and play with an adapter?  How does it sound compared to 2c51/396a/5670 type tubes?  I really like the sound of 6SN7 from past experience and still have a pair of leftover Shuguang Black Treasure tubes.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see the posts on page 176.  Going to pick up a garage1217 adapter and give it a go.  Anyone contact MHDT about whether or not this is a bad idea?  I don't mind so much if something on the DAC breaks but I don't want my house to burn down.  

EDIT 2: Found it. 
_http://www.just-hifi.com/MHDT-Labs-R-2R-NOS-Tube-DACs_10348723.html_

_I was told by Jiun 600mW heater draw from the tube is fine on the DACs. Not sure if there are 6sn7 tubes with more but I believe most is at that rating. The bendix 6385 is at 500mW_

Damn, I forgot Shuguang tubes are actually CV181z:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html#:~:text=Typical 6SN7 heaters draw about,a whole extra double triode.

_This is why the CV181Z might not be a drop in replacement for the *6SN7*. Typical *6SN7* heaters draw about *0.6A* and the *CV181z* draws about *0.9A (900mA)*, the old Mullard CV181 drew 950mA. This 50% increase in heater current amounts to 0.6A for a pair of CV181 in a circuit, which as you can see represents the load of a whole extra double triode._

I'm going to contact MHDT about this.


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## s1rrah

glad to see love on this thread ... MHDT Labs is legacy to me ... fine maestros ... lovely machines you make, friends.


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## kimchee411 (Jun 30, 2020)

Well I am using the CV181-Z tube and it sounds fantastic!  Compared it to the 1966 Bendix 6385 (haven't listened to these in years, wow forgot how good they are).  CV181-Z has a big sound and juicy midrange where you hear deep into the vocals, a little softer around the edges, analog sounding.  Like images are lit from within and emanate out, if that makes sense.  Bendix a little more holographic and solid with huge soundstage, snappier, almost spooky real.  Different but both delicious flavors.  If I had to choose, Bendix is the better all around tube.


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## Ralf Hutter

kimchee411 said:


> Well I am using the CV181-Z tube



Did you ever contact MHDT and get their input on doing this?


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## kimchee411

Yeah, he said it should work, but try it and make sure the transformer doesn't get hot (too much current draw).  It's fine for me.


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