# The DIY'rs Cookbook



## johnjen (Sep 30, 2022)

So first up,
right off the bat,
before we go any further,
lemme ‘splain sumpt’n about what my intention for this thread is, and is not.

It IS more about sharing our observations, experiments, forays into ‘what if’ territory.
It IS about sharing our sense of discovery and how our experiments help in increasing our sense of enjoyment and satisfaction while listening to the music we all love.
It IS about sharing where our individual and collective creativity leads us, so that we can then share these results for others to try (or not) as the case may be.

There is a wealth of very useful information that us tweakers discover and accumulate over the years.
This thread IS about sharing this treasure trove of experiential, functional, and insightful information.

Freely…

Without fear of being demeaned, castigated, slammed, or made to feel like an idiot…
IOW be the object of a group pile-on smack down.
There are plenty of other threads that will be glad to provide this form of ‘entertainment’.
We don’t need another one and certainly not here in this…

Smack Down Free Zone.

This thread is NOT about slamming anyone, anyone’s ideas, their method of experimentation, etc.
This thread is NOT about ego gratification nor any other ‘justification’ due to belittling anyone or anything.
And yes there is a fine line here, where hidden humor can be a major factor based upon pre-existing relationships as well as other misinterpretations.

This thread is NOT about repeating the same old arguments, again.
Besides we all know them all to well, and they have never, nor will they ever accomplish anything except to kill any forward momentum and any further helpful discussions.

This thread is about what we CAN do and not about why we CAN’T do something.

This thread is about contributing for the betterment of any and all who seek to improve their system, by any means they see fit.
And this includes way out there ideas, all the way from don’t put the power amp at the bottom of the stack, to Pixie Dust™©®: fact or fiction?
With (I hope) lots and lots in between.

And while I started this thread and I do plan on contributing, I hope that others will be willing to share their invaluable tricks and tips on improvements they have made or witnessed.
IOW there is no leader, no single expert, nobody what is in charge here…

I myself like to use the empirical method, well at least the first several steps anyway.
Others may use whatever method works for them.
And by sharing our results we can learn and ‘cross pollinate’ ideas and methods of pursuing our experiments.
I see this as a ‘win-win-win’ instead of a ‘kill it before it grows out of control’ exercise in the art of smack down…

And I think a great many are tired of this lack of respect, not to mention the negativity it engenders.
So here we can, by our intent, set up a Smack Down Free Zone and actually enjoy sharing our ideas and experiments and observations without fear of being ridiculed etc. etc.

So if you have something to contribute, we welcome your thoughts etc.
But if your ‘contribution’ is to fix, “Someone is WRONG on the internet", by negation (or worse), then please turn your thoughts into a genuine contribution for all to learn from.




MAJOR EDIT
I'm going to list all of the terms I've 're-purposed' and then add links to their posts that go deeper into the details.

*C3* Cohesion Coherence Coupling
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/30#post_11989064
*I5* Intelligibility
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/30#post_12024000
*T3* Toe Tapping Time
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/30#post_12024000
*HB&W* Head Bobbing & Weaving
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/30#post_12024000
*S/S* Spooky/Scary
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/30#post_12024000
*DRC* Dynamic Range Control
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/90#post_12083823
*tLFF* the Listener Fatigue Factor
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/105#post_12113288
*CP's* choke points
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/105#post_12113288
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/510#post_12646260
*Acoustic POWER vs volume*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/150#post_12131893
*Jitter*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/150#post_12152679
*Calibrated*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/180#post_12183651
*CNST* Central Nervous System Tap
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/180#post_12183651
*Phase Δ Reduction*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/195#post_12228607
*ToP* Threshold of Perceptibility,
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*Take a Break*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*Music as experience*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/285#post_12371363
*Holo* Holographic,
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*SEB* Spontaneous Emotional Burst,
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*I HEARD*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*IMPERATIVE*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*SuperGlue* / *SuperDuperGlue*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/615#post_12706695
*THE Correct Phase*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12265107
*EQ* done correctly
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12300653
*PRT* Phase Reversal Tweak
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12300653
*SSBB* SubSonic Bass Boost
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12300653
*Break In*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/300#post_12384903
*Thermal Equilibrium*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/300#post_12384903
*Akiko Sticks round 1*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/300#post_12401853
*Akiko Sticks round 2*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/315#post_12412592
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/315#post_12417878
*Subjectivist vs the Objectivist*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/315#post_12407403
*The Prove It Proposition*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/315#post_12478724
*My EQ setup*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/345#post_12489775
*Tuubz*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/390#post_12525131
*Designers vs Users*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/390#post_12512499
*Connector Contact Patch Resistance Reduction*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/420#post_12557400
*Auditory memory*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/450#post_12607620
*RN3 progress report*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/555#post_12664510
*Spikes, Overshoot, and Wonderful*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/585#post_12677244
*Moar is Less*.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/585#post_12679403
*Fuses and current draw*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/615#post_12711432
*My take on Cable Cooking*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/615#post_12722633
*ASCC*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/630#post_12738982
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/630#post_12745102
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/645#post_12754820

*HD800-Jmod write ups.* (Note: this is the final post of the series where links to all of the previous posts will be found in the header)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-90#post-14608836

*Power cable series*.  (Note: this is the final post of the series where links to all of the previous posts will be found in the header)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-92#post-14746426





JJ
ps. And let us remember, one of, if not the BEST way to learn, is to ‘fail’, then learn from the ‘mistake’ and move on.
Indeed one of the 'Best' ways of defining a Master is by saying they have tried and FAILED more times than the student has even tried.


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## BIG POPPA

I am here johnjen


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## ericr

Sub'd


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## Avro_Arrow

Here is my contribution:
  
 317/337 (and family) adjustable regulator tweak.
  
 Replace the voltage setting resistor with a semiconductor.
  
 Typical 317 regulator implementation:
  


 Typically R2 sets the current through R1 and the voltage drop of R1 plus 1.25 volts is the output voltage.
  
 Now if we replace R1 with an LED or two, we get this:
  


 Now, once again, in this schematic, R1 sets the current and the voltage drop across the
 LED(s) plus 1.25 volts is the output voltage. The advantage is the the voltage drop across
 and LED is much more constant with changing voltage than a resistor. This makes the regulator
 even more stable and less prone to oscillation and ringing which the 317 is prone to do.
 The adjustable resistor VR1 is provided to tweak the current through the LED(s) to provide some
 limited trim of the output voltage.


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## johnjen

That's really kewl!

And I think Schiit is using this approach in the 1st gen Mojo amp to set the bias current.

LEDs set a fairly consistent and stable current, much better than just a resistor ever could.

And I like your avatar and your user name.
Not many know about the Avro, WAY ahead of its time, so much so that the project was killed.

JJ :thumb


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## johnjen

Thanks Big Poppa and ericr…!

I just hit another HUGE lick.

I mentioned during the secret meet that I had added Walker Audio's SST to the fuses, ac power cables, IC's, and to the 4 pin xlr cable connector for my 800's.
BIG improvement! (especially the 800's cable connector)

Then I soldered the 12 awg ground return leads at what I call my 1st splice, where my dedicated feed from the panel pops up and then heads to the duplex receptacles that the amp and dac are plugged into.
BIGGER improvement!

Then I soldered the hot and neutral leads at the 1st splice…


Um.

Er…

I just nailed yet another choke point, BIG time.

Smoothness, articulation, C3 (cohesion, coherence, coupling), intelligibility, and much more all took a HUGE step up.

I just love it when another choke point gets eliminated, because it allows the system to get out of its way all the more.
And ALL of the previous tweeks cumulative improvements get another leg up as well.

Interesting times in Audio indeed!

JJ


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## johnjen

Oh yeah one interesting tidbit about soldering the ac wiring that feeds my audio setup.

During the Secret meet I was talking to gefski and he mentioned that his father, when he built his house, had soldered ALL of the ac distribution wiring in his house.
A man WAY ahead of his time!
And I bet the tunes in that house are KILLER! :atsmile:

And I still have one additional tweak to make to the soldered romex leads… 

AND

During that same meet, curbfeeler related a story about how a guy had 'convinced' the local power company to install a new step down transformer at his new house.
Talk about clean and abundant power…

I bring this up because just recently the power poles in my neighborhood were replaced and they also replaced the step down transformer that feeds my house.
They also moved the transformer from down the block to my back yard.

I now have the shortest run from that brand new transformer to any house it feeds.

YES! :atsmile:


JJ
ps And I gotta say, again, that the smilies available on this site are WOEFULLY pitiful…


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## Barra

Here are a few notes to contribute toward the value of wires:
  
 Just got some new JJ branded power cables that are braided to 10 gauge, high performance connectors, cryoed, and baked. They are not supposed to sound great until run in for 150 hours so I wasn't expecting much - but that is not what happened. Wow, what a huge noticeable difference. It has been a little while since I have listened to my Havana 2 > Mojo setup so this is not very scientific, but I am hearing some specific differences that cannot be mind tricks.
  
*Concrete Differences:*
  

*Louder*: I typically listen to my LCD2s between 10 and 12 o'clock and go loud at 1. Set at a little before 12 - 11:45ish - I plugged and turned on and almost blew my ears out. Now 10 is mildly loud and 11 is all I will go. This is all hooked up to my $3, well $8 as it is a 3 prong cheap extension cord.
 *Pronounced 3D Treble*: There is a more pronounced and powerful treble that has added another dimension to the music. It sounds as if it is floating out there by itself, yet connected to the music - if that makes any sense. The LCD is no longer all bass or bright, it has a more natural character. The treble is now very smooth.
  
*Think What you Want*:

*Dynamics*: The smaller elements in the song seem more concrete and crisper rather than being subtle. I am not no longer guessing if that bell is in my head or part of the song. It is still soft like is should be, but now it has texture and edges to the sound. It also roars quickly when called upon, but now doesn't cover up the subtleties. Again, could just be in my head, but I don't think so.
*Bass Impact*: This is more subtle, especially with my LCD2.2, but the bass is meatier with more impact. This can be in my head, but I don't think so.
  
 It sounds like the fat wire acts like a capacitor to provide a reservoir of power. JJ says no, but how else would it make this much difference when gimped by a cheap extension cord? Maybe it is conditioning the electrical.
  
 JJ says that the cord is now just getting out of the way of the sound.


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## johnjen

Do you like the changes and please tell us what has changed, as in clearer voices, more accurate instruments etc.
or not.

Are you hearing your music collection, for the 1st time, again?

And do you hear any changes in the acoustic presentation as you gain hrs?

And if the changes don't pass the 'this is better' test then the reasons for the why of them, is much less important.

IOW we want to make changes that are 'better', even so it is good to know what doesn't help.

JJ
ps they are actually 13AWG cables.
And it's more like the cables allow the system to get out of *it's* own way.
And my advice is don't worry about if it's 'imaginary'.
If the changes are great enough that it isn't subtle but rather dramatic, then they are great enough for anyone to hear.
Does your wife hear a difference, etc.?


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## Barra

If I wasn't clear, I absolutely love the new sound. I'll need more time for specifics, but the tone is more saturated with more textures and more dimension.


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## tomb

avro_arrow said:


> Here is my contribution:
> 
> 317/337 (and family) adjustable regulator tweak.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, and it's the exact same circuit you designed for the power supply of the DoodleBug.  Your design, and a device that can make any USB-powered DAC perform better.





  
 That said, somehow I think that kind of achievement/knowledge will be lost on this thread, but I'll try to keep an open mind while I gird myself for the typical cable/connector/blue-tack gibberish that will ensue.


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## BIG POPPA

Welcome to the Dark side of this hobby Barra. You barely have a taste of what decent cables can sound like with cables made of Chinese knock off IEC's and copper wire that has been cooked and cryo'd. 
 Things to realize.
 The purer the metal of the cable the better it will sound. Crummy copper sound a tad congested.
 I am a fan of Jena Labs, Cardas, and Oyaide for wire.
 For Connectors I am a fan of Oyaide, Furutech, and Cardas
  
 Length makes a difference.
 Listen Carefully......
 The longer the cable the more color of the cable.
 The shorter the cable the more neutral sound of the cable.
 For Digital cables you want a short as possible for least amount of artifacts.
 Headphone cables for home I prefer 8ft minimum
 IC's 1m minimum, I really like 1.5 m-2m
 Power cables 1.5m to start
  
 Treatments for cables
 I would start with Caig products I use Caig Deoxit Gold GX5
 Then you have the grease with metal platelet infused stuff like Walker SST, Mapleshade Silclear, and Furutech Nano Liquid
  
 I can keep going but this is a great place to start.
 Next part may talk about Dielectric Properties, Cable Geometry and Shielding
  
 Quote:


barra said:


> Here are a few notes to contribute toward the value of wires:
> 
> Just got some new JJ branded power cables that are braided to 10 gauge, high performance connectors, cryoed, and baked. They are not supposed to sound great until run in for 150 hours so I wasn't expecting much - but that is not what happened. Wow, what a huge noticeable difference. It has been a little while since I have listened to my Havana 2 > Mojo setup so this is not very scientific, but I am hearing some specific differences that cannot be mind tricks.
> 
> ...


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## johnjen

tomb said:


> Yes, and it's the exact same circuit you designed for the power supply of the DoodleBug.  Your design, and a device that can make any USB-powered DAC perform better.
> 
> 
> That said, somehow I think that kind of achievement/knowledge will be lost on this thread, but I'll try to keep an open mind while I gird myself for the typical cable/connector/blue-tack gibberish that will ensue.


Can we look forward to your CONTRIBUTIONS as well?

JJ


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## Avro_Arrow

tomb said:


> Yes, and it's the exact same circuit you designed for the power supply of the DoodleBug.  Your design, and a device that can make any USB-powered DAC perform better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I want to abide by the thread rules of not saying anything negative, so I will just keep quiet.
 If the snake oil makes them happy then let them be happy.


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## bimmer100

I have made some mods to my p300
Replaced the hospital grade phosphor bronze outlets with high grade red copper/rhodium plated with insanely grippy inlets, and a second outlet from synergistic research that is tesla treated. 
I will be able to test them... Eventually. Fitting them was difficult enough as they were wider than normal and required very minor modification. Will try with tesla SE t1 cable and ps audio lab cable. In both outlets should produce slightly different results. I thought about replacing the internal wire with high grade wire of some sort. Any suggestions?


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## tomb

johnjen said:


> tomb said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, and it's the exact same circuit you designed for the power supply of the DoodleBug.  Your design, and a device that can make any USB-powered DAC perform better.
> ...


 
  
 No, there is ample evidence in this forum section already if you use the search tool.  Some of them are in my signature, even.
  
 That said, I should've followed your rules instead of trying to bust your thread right away.  Avro kind of alluded to it.  Sorry.


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## johnjen

avro_arrow said:


> I want to abide by the thread rules of not saying anything negative, so I will just keep quiet.
> If the snake oil makes them happy then let them be happy.


My primary intent here is to help folks explore and learn about what does and doesn't 'help'.

Negative comments in and of themselves aren't the key issue.

Sometimes warning someone or letting others know what doesn't work based upon direct personal experiences could be 'negative' but have a positive intent.
It’s the slamming and derision that is unacceptable and does not help anyone, well except for the ego of those who like to 'prove' something.

There is more than enough of that elsewhere on this site

And "If the snake oil makes them happy then let them be happy." IS the point.
One mans poison etc.
And as Baldr recently posted… _*"I believe that in the quest for the best sound, an open mind is the most important asset. I will even listen to cables, even though I believe in my heart that all technology about cables is well known. Who knows, even an old fart like me could be surprised."*_ 
from here http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7725.

The point of this thread is to encourage experimentation, personal growth and the joy and fascination of discovery, by any means the individual may choose.
And if a question is raised, we will do our best to answer it in keeping with this same spirit of personal growth and the joy and fascination of discovery.

Thanks JJ


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## johnjen

tomb said:


> No, there is ample evidence in this forum section already if you use the search tool.  Some of them are in my signature, even.
> 
> That said, I should've followed your rules instead of trying to bust your thread right away.  Avro kind of alluded to it.  Sorry.


No worries! :atsmile:

I figure that establishing this particular set of rules may take a bit of adjusting for some and so I expect some to need to adjust their expectations.

As for searching for "ample evidence" I'm sure there is.
The 'problem' is that the site is so huge that much of this wisdom is buried deep within so many different threads scattered here and there.

Bring up this info (again) and aiming it at a particular issue or experiment just makes it MUCH easier to find and apply to the situation at hand.

This is why contributions are essential, they are meant to help folks learn what others have already come to understand and know.
And along the way other POV's and newly discovered insights will be added to the mix which just helps refine the learning process all the more.

JJ :atsmile:


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## johnjen

bimmer100 said:


> snip
> …Will try with tesla SE t1 cable and ps audio lab cable. In both outlets should produce slightly different results. I thought about replacing the internal wire with high grade wire of some sort. Any suggestions?
> 
> snip



For ac power circuits solid wire will probably yield the best results, but is or can be a PIA to work with.
And what I have found is, the lower the resistance any and everywhere, the better.

Which means where wires terminate at each end is important along with the gauge and strand count of the wire used.

Using 'exotic' metallurgy will also introduce different shades and variations into the mix as well.
Big Poppa is the guy to advise you on that.
But then it comes down to what sonic characteristics are you looking for in the first place.

And this could be approached as an ongoing experiment where different duplex receptacles and wires could be directly compared, and in various combinations to find your sweet spot.
And then once that is found, as many of the other receptacles as are needed could be upgraded as well.

JJ


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## johnjen

There was a brief discussion in another thread a while back about our aural memory and I wanted to continue that discussion here if folks were interested…

So here is another angle on aural memory to contemplate.
This is based not upon analytic methods but on experiential ones.

There are 3 necessary ‘ingredients’ for this approach to be ‘useful’.

The first is one’s ability and desire to hear these subtle details. 
Not everyone can, as evidenced by a talk given at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest back a few years. The head of product dev (or some such similar title) for ESS, casually mentioned he couldn’t hear these subtle ‘cues’ and details. And that they would take the latest revision to their guy who could hear it, to do the evaluation.

Second is a sufficiently resolving audio system, one that has been tweaked and is capable of resolving the minutest of details and can delineate and present them with ‘ease’. This usually (but not always) involves much time spent on tweaking and dialing in the entire system.

The third requirement is source material that is involving and captivating to the extent that listening becomes, as I have come to know and describe it as, ‘Imperative’. 
Tyll H. at inner|fidelity described it when he found himself so engrossed in the music he was hearing, he couldn’t do anything else. 
He found his hands, ‘frozen’ over the keyboard, only after that track ended.
This is where we get sucked into the music here and NOW, where all else fades away, except for the ongoing experience of the music itself. 

When these 3 ‘ingredients’ all come together, it is possible to ‘memorize’ any music that demands your attention, for it’s entire length.

This is probably also part of what musicians do, they memorize songs both as muscle memory but also as a function of the sequencing and the timing of what should happen, when and how… 
Well, except for jazz…

IOW the music is so captivating that it ‘demands’ our full and undivided attention, to the exclusion of all else. And after sufficient familiarization, during these moments, which can and will be repeated multiple times because the experience is simply so compelling, the sum total of the entire experience can be recalled. 
And to the extent that any instrument or voice in any combination can be anticipated during the entire track, 
at will.
When the experience becomes so Imperative that all you can, indeed all you want to do, is to get swept up in the music, this is when the brain can kick into a form of synchronization with the music.

I call this a Central Nervous System tap, perhaps you’ve run across the term before?

It is a sublime and compelling experience.

This speaks to our ability to immerse ourselves within the music.
And I figure that some who have top tier DACs such as the Jggy and Jggy Jr. will be exploring these rarefied listening experiences soon enough.
And I bet that there are some who own tweako analog systems who have experienced this as well.

It’s way frick’n kewl.

JJ


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## Elric

subbed


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## Barra

bimmer100 said:


> I have made some mods to my p300
> Replaced the hospital grade phosphor bronze outlets with high grade red copper/rhodium plated with insanely grippy inlets, and a second outlet from synergistic research that is tesla treated.
> I will be able to test them... Eventually. Fitting them was difficult enough as they were wider than normal and required very minor modification. Will try with tesla SE t1 cable and ps audio lab cable. In both outlets should produce slightly different results. I thought about replacing the internal wire with high grade wire of some sort. Any suggestions?
> 
> ...


 
 Can you give us some impressions of what you hear with the different plugs? I am interested in the tesla one myself. Is it significant?


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## bimmer100

barra said:


> Can you give us some impressions of what you hear with the different plugs? I am interested in the tesla one myself. Is it significant?




I have yet to try them out! I'm still moving and did this project with my fiancé one evening before packing it up and putting it back into storage. I'm really curious too. We are having issues with moving and won't be able to get all my gear up and running for another week or two. I wish there was more time for audio listening.  

We are focusing on planning our marriage  oct 17th. Just around the corner and takes top priority obviously!

I will be testing these out when I get the time and will let you know what I hear


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## gefski

I'll just throw in a couple comments on power delivery.

I have a dedicated breaker, cabling, and outlet going to my speaker system. In that room, I have a ceiling fan (not getting power from that breaker). When I turn the fan off/on, I get a slight "pop" through the speakers.

So, there are only two paths for that spike to get back to the audio system: 1) Through the air; or 2) Back to the breaker panel and out through every wire in the house.

This means I haven't accomplished isolation by just putting in a dedicated breaker. I would need to have a dedicated line to the house & separate box, right? Or is there such a thing as a higher quality breaker with isolation, chokes, etc?

Anyway, one for ya all to chew on.


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## gefski

Second, just a comment on outlets. 

For years audiophiles have talked about "hospital grade". I don't think that's what we need in hi-fi. If you read, for example, Hubbell's info on outlets, the priorities for hospital grade are multiple plated contacts to deal with high moisture, chemical, and oxygen rich environment. That doesn't square with what we have in our homes.

I use Hubbell 5362 outlets, heavy unplated copper throughout. I'm happy with them but don't claim any verified sonic improvements.


----------



## tomb

gefski said:


> I'll just throw in a couple comments on power delivery.
> 
> I have a dedicated breaker, cabling, and outlet going to my speaker system. In that room, I have a ceiling fan (not getting power from that breaker). When I turn the fan off/on, I get a slight "pop" through the speakers.
> 
> ...


 
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_ground
  
 Such things are installed all the time in computer centers, for sensitive laboratory equipment, etc.  More elaborate schemes use an isolation transformer that essentially powers all isolated outlets and is completely separate from the normal power mains.
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> I'll just throw in a couple comments on power delivery.
> 
> I have a dedicated breaker, cabling, and outlet going to my speaker system. In that room, I have a ceiling fan (not getting power from that breaker). When I turn the fan off/on, I get a slight "pop" through the speakers.
> 
> ...


My vote of the path for the 'pop' is thru either the neutral or ground, or both, since these wires are tied together in the panel, along with all the rest of the branch circuits back in the panel.

Motors, when power is 'quickly' disconnected tend to 'spike' the supply circuits.
Some motors are 'impedance protected', which usually means a capacitor has been added to 'absorb' these spikes.
Some are more successful than others in this regard.

One other 'possible' solution is to ground the entire audio system independently of the ground buss in the panel.
This entails a separate ground rod and run to the power that feeds the audio system.

I was amazed at the SQ differences I heard just by soldering the ground wires together where previously they were just wire nutted together on my dedicated branch circuit.
This leads me to want to explore this further, so I'm about to implement this as an experiment in my system, just because I can.
I'm interested in hearing what changes this will make.

And my understanding is the most significant reason for a dedicated branch circuit from the panel to the audio system is the increase in being able to dump more current into the equipment, in a very short time.
As I've been investigating this aspect of powering our equipment and what can be done to help improve our systems, the ASCC (Available Short Circuit Current) tests have thus far correlated the most, with noticeable improvements in SQ and in multiple ways.

And since ALL the grounds and neutrals are tied together on the same buss back at the panel, 'real' isolation isn't really possible.
Even the power feeds tie together, thru the breakers, back into the main buss, at least all those that share the same phase do so.

Which means you 'might' be able to reduce the amount of the 'pop' by moving either your dedicated branch circuit that feeds your audio system or the branch circuit that feeds your ceiling fan to the 'other' phase back in the panel.
This will isolate the power from these 2 branch circuits from each other as much as possible without having to add additional equipment. 
I'd opt to move the ceiling fan branch circuit, especially if the power that feeds your audio branch circuit is 'clean' and has no other issues other than the 'pop'.

It might be worth a try just to see if it helps.


JJ


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## johnjen

gefski said:


> Second, just a comment on outlets.
> 
> For years audiophiles have talked about "hospital grade". I don't think that's what we need in hi-fi. If you read, for example, Hubbell's info on outlets, the priorities for hospital grade are multiple plated contacts to deal with high moisture, chemical, and oxygen rich environment. That doesn't square with what we have in our homes.
> 
> I use Hubbell 5362 outlets, heavy unplated copper throughout. I'm happy with them but don't claim any verified sonic improvements.


I too tried the hospital grade receptacle approach and heard no improvement. Much like all the other attempts I made.

Until I installed those very same hubble super delux HBL5362BK receptacles that had been cryo'd and cooked.
The difference was immediate and eye opening.
It was the first time I immediately heard an obvious and striking improvement, just by making a change to the duplex receptacles.

It was so striking it started me on this whole avenue of ac power distribution research.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 1*

This topic is involved and long, so I’m going to break it up into parts, of which this is like the ‘introduction’.

In some of my other audio musings I briefly touched upon this topic which is likely to be of interest to those of us who ‘fuss with the knobs’ even more so than those who are less heavily audio invested/afflicted/infected.
This subject centers around the idea of hearing changes and determining if these changes are truly beneficial,
or not.

As tweakers we, perhaps more so than most, need to be able to figure if our experiments truly produce improvements in our systems, and do so fairly quickly, with ease and with a degree of confidence. 
Even my recent experiment of soldering the ac power romex cable leads, instead of relying solely upon using wire nuts to connect the ends of this branch circuit together, resulted in changes.
But are they a ‘keeper’?
Or not?

Changes do happen when we fuss or introduce new equipment into our systems. 
And sometimes even very simple changes can fool us into thinking they really are improvements.
So along the way I figured out a few Audiophool-Tools™®© :atsmile: that have proven themselves to be quite useful.

So I wanted to describe and share some of the tools I use to figure out what truly IS better, at least for me anyways.
Of course not every one will see the need/want to use these sonic tools, but even so just being aware of them and having them in your tool kit, so to speak, might prove to be helpful.

We are all familiar with such common terms as SQ (Sound Quality) and FR (Frequency Response) and Soundstage and S/N (Signal to Noise ratio) and THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) etc. 
But these days our systems, with all these newly enhanced capabilities, are approaching 120dB dynamic range & resolution, & channel separation. 
Along with jitter and all the rest in this new digital “Audio Schtff”’ (thank you Schitt Audio :atsmile: ), we are being presenting with an expanded and enhanced audio terrain to navigate. 

Additionally we use terms that help describe 3d spatial aspects (depth and height and spread etc.) to convey the dimensionality of the soundstage we perceive. 
And headphones have a much bigger challenge in being able to recreate and deliver these types of sonic aspects. 
So as a result of my experiments I came up with a few ‘refinements’ aimed at sonic aspects which can help us drill down into this portion of the acoustic presentation. 

I use terms such as *3C*’s (Cohesion, Coherence, Coupling), *I5* (Intelligibility), *T3* (ToeTapp’nTime), *HB&W* (HeadBobbing & Weaving), *S/S* (Spooky/Scary), *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor), *SEB* (Spontaneous Emotional Burst), *Holo* (Holographic), *IMPERATIVE* (I MUST LISTEN), as additional means of describing different sets of readily identifiable sonic signatures. 

These descriptors along with their related ‘tests’ can help make it easier to determine when ‘new’ sonic attributes are actually ‘better’, or not. Many of these ‘tests’ are or should be familiar enough, and really all I’m adding to the mix is some additional refinement, meaning and context which can help increase their usefulness as tools to help figure out if the changes we make are merely impressive or have deeper, more compelling and desirable benefits.


In Part 2 I’ll go into more detail about the first 3 terms, the *3C*’s (Cohesion, Coherence, Coupling) along with the consequences of improvements to these sonic aspects.


JJ


----------



## johnjen

Before I post part 2, I wanted to report on my latest experiment.


So is anyone else using the Sonarworks Plug-in?

I've been fussing with the controls for a bit now and after this last set of 'adjustments', this is THE BEST I have ever heard my 800's.
Period.

Their plug-in requires DSP to run so a s/w player is needed (I use Jriver) and the Ref 3 plug-in comes with 25 other headphone "average" compensation curves, along with several other Senns such as the HD650, HD600 and a few others.
Check out the full list on their site if interested.

They can also measure your HP's for a 'custom curve' which is what I'm aiming for.
This custom curve actually measures each channel independent of the other for a true balancing of the output level for the entire 20-20K spectrum.
To within a claimed ±0.9dB.

If that is truly what can happen, that would be an astounding achievement, regardless of it being a speaker or a headphone.
THAT is channel matching.
Channel matching does wonderful things for the entire acoustic presentation in so many ways.

But having even this degree of FR accuracy (±3dB) on 800's is truly wonderful.
And really since my 800's are modded I can't even claim that tight of a FrqResponse match up.

I hope to perform an experiment with a modicum of measurement backing, AND wind up with hopefully Truly Flat response from 20 to 20K.

As it is you really should try this plug-in if you can.
It’s free to try for 21 days.
And I doubt many won’t wind up buying it ($66)

And no I don't work for these guys.
In fact I've been a bit of a pain in their backside, what with all of my questions.
And to cap it all off they accommodated my odd request and as a result, this is THE BEST I've ever heard my 800's.

JJ


----------



## Speedskater

johnjen said:


> One other 'possible' solution is to ground the entire audio system independently of the ground buss in the panel.
> This entails a separate ground rod and run to the power that feeds the audio system.
> 
> JJ


 
 I just noticed this old post.
  
 No, No, No!
 Never ever use a separate ground rod. This is dangerous and very much against code.
 And the ground rod has nothing to do with audio system power problems.


----------



## tomb

speedskater said:


> johnjen said:
> 
> 
> > One other 'possible' solution is to ground the entire audio system independently of the ground buss in the panel.
> ...


 
  
 This is true.  The separate, isolated ground in the IG receptacle should be brought back to the same ground buss bar in the panel.  In commercial/residential wiring, the grounds are all inter-connected with one another in their path back to the panel.  On the other hand, the ground in the IG receptacle is insulated and not connected to any other ground until it gets back to the panelboard.  NEC 250.146 (d)
  
 I'm not so sure about your last statement.  Since a separate ground bar (connected to other power circuits) is not code-compliant, we'll never know if that cuts down on interference to an audio system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   However, I think it's an open question whether a code-compliant IG receptacle would, however.  Minimizing electrical interference is one of the primary purposes of using isolated ground receptacle.


----------



## Speedskater

It's the stake in the garden, whether it's correctly or incorrectly connected, that has nothing to do with audio system power problems. Nor AC power quality in general. That stake is there only for safety reasons.


----------



## johnjen

Um, did you know that code now mandates using 2 ground rods at least 6' apart?
And that they should be interconnected?

And further as long as the power demand for this one branch circuit is 'low' and the voltage difference between the neutral and the 'new ground' is well under 0.5 volts, which should be the case assuming a good ground connection, the possibility of it being dangerous is nil.

And as an experiment, just to find out if there is ANY audible difference, at all, for my one dedicated branch circuit, I'm going to find out.

What motivates me to want to find out was the improvement I heard after soldering the connections of this one branch circuit, and this was enough to want to further explore this whole topic.

Lastly, and this probably doesn't impact our homes very much, but heavy usage on branch circuits can modulate the neutral (and thus the ground back at the panel).

How much this can or does affect our audio equipment is also a question I've long wondered about.

JJ


----------



## Speedskater

Um, did you know that code now mandates using 2 ground rods at least 6' apart?
 And that they should be interconnected?
  
 I'm not at all sure just who 'you' is?  But those two (or more) ground rods (there are also other approved grounding systems) are there for safety reasons. Some of those reasons are thunder storms, power company high voltage errors and situations like keeping your Neutral & Safety Ground at about the same potential as your swimming pool.
  
 Now with regards to normal day-to-day operation of AC power systems. It's a common mis-understanding in many areas of electricity, that bad electricity wants to go into the dirt. Or that bad electricity can be directed into the dirt or a substitute box. The fact is the Mother Earth does not act as a sink or sump for these electrical problems. Really noise currents, interference currents, lost neutral currents and ground currents all want to get back to their voltage source. Just what is their voltage source? Why it's that big power company transformer down he street.


----------



## johnjen

speedskater said:


> Um, did you know that code now mandates using 2 ground rods at least 6' apart?
> 
> And that they should be interconnected?
> 
> ...



The you was the generic 'you'… :atsmile:

As for the safety aspect yeah that's very true as well.
And it does form the justification for the existing 3 wire power system we have.

But, in our audio and related electronics (computers, etc.) the ground connection has a direct connection to every chip as well as most circuits 'stand' on the ground connection as the reference from which to operate from.

If ground is 'modulated' so is the entire component.
I have seen this, in the field, screw with industrial and related equipment to the extent that the entire grounding scheme needed to be 'updated'.
And our audio equipment is much more sensitive than industrial electronics.

As for 'bad' electricity, she's a fickle mistress.
If the modulation is high enough (the bad), even ground isn't ground, but that condition is or should be somewhat rare.

The thing is ground, as in the ground rod supplied reference voltage itself, isn't even absolutely stable nor consistent from location to location.
And ground, as I mentioned above, is used as a voltage reference, at least for our audio equipment anyway.
For more normal uses it is a safety thing, including our audio gear.
But (another but) the likelihood of being 'shocked' by 5 volts of nasty modulated voltage residing on ground is like a non-issue.
But (yet more buts) it absolutely WILL screw with the SQ of our audio systems.

Just like in the example that initiated this whole line of posts, i.e. turning off the fan and hearing a pop.
It doesn't take much to affect our systems.
And if this modulation were ongoing, instead of sporadic, well that's what power regen units are for, to isolate (as much as possible) the noise from the ac power that feeds into the audio system.

And I agree, the grounds for the distribution of ac power is a local function.
As in, the step down transformer on the pole that feeds our homes is grounded, which is in relative proximity to the house grounds being fed by that transformer.

But (yet still more buts) the noise doesn't originate from the step down transformer, it comes from the use of that power, from the load itself, and the ground does or can act as a sink for that 'noise'.
There simply isn't any other reference with the potential and capacity to absorb said noise.
I.E. it needs to go somewhere and if the grounding scheme is adequate, then the noise will 'go to ground' since it is usually at a much lower potential than any other portion of the ac power distribution system.

And this entire topic is WAY more complex than my simplistic explanation, especially when we are talking about multi-phase ac power distribution systems where imaginary and reactive power come into the picture.

And as a side topic have you looked into Eric Dollard and his exploration of just precisely what electricity really is, where it resides and the mathematics involved?

I took notes from his 3hr Tesla Society lecture where he laid it all out.
This topic is but one I was going to go into after I finish my series on 'better'.

JJ


----------



## tomb

Guys, I think Speedskater correctly pointed out the futility/illegality of a separate ground rod to do anything with audio circuits.  I think it was incorrectly assumed and stated from the beginning as an incorrect way to describe what was meant by an IG receptacle.  Those have proven value, but have nothing to do with sticking a metal rod into the ground.


----------



## johnjen

1st off I'd like to thank both of you for the manner in which you both have contributed your opinions and experience in these discussions.
It hasn't even begun to approach a display of ego.
This is very much appreciated by me.
So thank you for the degree of civility you have brought to this discussion! 

And in continuing this discussion…

I agree that people shouldn't just elect to go out and drive another ground rod into the ground, and certainly not because they read it on the internet.
Besides it’s a major PIA to push a 10' rod into the ground… :atsmile:
Having done it a few times already, I don't look forward to that portion of the job in any way, at all, no sireee.

But in all reality that wasn't really what I was suggesting in the first place.
And I also agree that some could read what I wrote as suggesting that this would be a 'good thing' to do.

So no one should think that a separate ground is going to 'fix' anything, unless you consult with an electrician and follow the local codes.

But I'm still going to experiment and find out for myself, because I can.
Besides I have a few other experiments that deal with earth ground that don't involve audio, that I want to pursue anyways… :atsmile:

Lastly, 
No one should go poking around in their electrical panel without proper equipment and knowledge of just what the fraque they are doing.
It's very dangerous and could be lethal if the unthinkable should happen.

But then I figure those who venture into the DIY section of this site have at least a modicum of experience with tools and dealing with potentially dangerous equipment, such as tube gear especially power amps and the like.
Of course this too is an assumption on my part, so it could be wrong, or sumpt'n…

This reminds me of the advice Mr Science gave Jimmy,
"Here, hold these 2 wires…" :atsmile:

Anyway, I've had my say and I'm going to post up part 2 of "Better" next.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So here is part Deux

*What and how do we know what IS ‘better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 2*

To continue, here are the 1st three tools which loom large on my audio plate.
I find them to be very useful and once a degree of familiarity is reached, when there are changes, they can be more easily noticed.
And since these aren’t common audio terms most are familiar with I’ll add my ‘definition’ for them and describe how I use them and how their manifestation is identifiable so that these terms may make (more) sense and be useful.

The 1st Big 3 are;
*Cohesion
Coherence
Coupling*

*Cohesion* 
This 1st term applies to individual voices (by voices I mean both organic and instrumental for the rest of this missive) and is a descriptive ‘measure’ of the completeness of all of the associated harmonics and related nuances that are created as a result of their ‘parents’ voice. 
As this aspect improves new nuances and subtle portions of each voice will become apparent. 
Such as hearing *HOW* a guitar string is plucked, for example.
Think, hearing your music anew.

This is the ‘definition’ I use for cohesion, ‘the sticking together of particles of the same’. 
I liken cohesion to ‘voice integrity’ as that is what I hear as it is increased, each voice has more ‘to it’, it has more ‘there’, there. 
There are more subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) cues and harmonic over and under tones.
More audible information is presented from which we create a mental picture in our minds sonic soundstage, based on what we hear, as to *WHAT* truly makes up each voice.
Like more breath sounds, or a greater perception of the tonality of a cymbal, or drum, and where it was struck and which portion of the stick or brush or mallet was used to do so.
This then directs our focus at the related spatial info that also defines that voice, but these spatial characteristics are the bridge to the 2nd aspect, that being…

*Coherence*
This sonic aspect’s ‘playground’ is the minds created sonic sound field from which all voices spring forth.
It is not just the acoustic space around each voice but also its placement in 3d space and the relative placement of each voice with respect to all the others. 
It also contains the notion of how ‘deep’ and ‘wide’ and ‘tall’ and ‘palpable’ each voice is perceived to be.

IOW how ‘easy’ is it to ‘point right at’ each individual voice, in 3d space, and hear how big it is, where it’s ‘borders’ are?
Also how easily can we locate each voice as distinctly placed in comparison to all the others (behind? - in front? - just to the side? - etc.).
And how sharp or ‘precise’ and stable is the ‘outline’ of that voice in 3d space and how does its presence influence the rest of the voices, including the very room or acoustical environment in which we hear it presented in?

The definition of coherence I use here is, ‘united as, or forming, a whole’.
I associate coherence with ‘sound field integrity’ which also connotes the complete overall presentation of the whole of the music.
Indeed this sound field is where the music ‘comes from’ and it contains and presents the integration of ALL of the voices as they ‘play’ off each other and the acoustic space and so creates the entirety of the musical performance we envelope ourselves within. 
This includes low level sounds such as the background noise (the audience, etc.), air handling noise, stage ‘mechanical’ noises (talking, dropping something on the floor, turning pages of sheet music, etc.).
And as coherence is increased, which seems to be directly dependent upon an increase in cohesion, the sonic panorama presented to our ears becomes more ‘real’, more closely knit together, and again there is more ‘there’, there.

*Coupling*
This is where the rubber meets the road so to speak.
It is a very desirable and impressive attribute that once recognized, and when improved, becomes rather significant, mostly because it can add so much to the overall acoustic presentation.
When coupling is improved the amount of acoustical power transfer that is heard becomes more apparent. This seems to be directly dependent upon achieving ‘adequate’ amounts of both cohesion and coherence such that when they properly ‘align’, more and more of the available energy inherent within the digits and bits is converted back into their ‘proper’ place within the original analog signal.

This 3rd aspect means a greater portion of the original acoustic energy that is generated by musical instruments can be more accurately recreated and presented to our ears during playback.

What this boils down to is, the ability of the system to create and deliver a signal that can ‘faithfully’ transfer the inherent acoustic power and impact of the original voice back into our acoustic playback environment.
This requires the proper timing of all the frequencies that ‘make up’ the original voice along with the proper amount of timed energy at any and every specific frequency.

IOW the ‘absolute accuracy’ of the re-created analog signal more closely matches its original signal in both time and amplitude. 
The more precisely we achieve this alignment of these 2 dependent variables (time and amount) in each moment in real time, the greater the transfer of the acoustical energy (power) that is perceived and the more ‘real’ each voice becomes.

The definition I choose to use for this is, ‘coupling is a more accurate alignment between two or more related and interacting components’.
I think of coupling as an indication of the degree of manifestation of the ‘sound field power transfer function’.
As the original signal is more tightly aligned with itself during recreation and presentation in our acoustic space, the palpability and sonic dynamics become more ‘real’, more closely matched with their true original acoustic nature. 
This results in increased efficiency in delivering more acoustic power, as in greater instantaneous dynamic range from each voice, individually and collectively.

Another way of approaching this is to use a thought experiment.
Think of a moiré pattern that is created by 2 discs with an identical pattern on each. As these discs are rotated and brought into closer alignment with each other, the original pattern becomes more and more precise and reflects the original pattern all the more accurately.
And then instead of using a static or fixed pattern use the music signal as the pattern.
As the effect of the moiré pattern lessens, due to better alignment, the music signal becomes more exact with less deviation from the original signal.

So what does all of this mean, you ask?
When we have a playback system with enhanced Cohesion & Coherence & Coupling several things happen, seemingly synonymously. 

When the level of inner detail of each voice is enhanced along with its associated harmonic structure, we have greater ‘voice integrity’.

When we achieve this enhanced degree of ‘voice integrity’ then the ‘sound field integrity’ can also take a mother may I step up, as the entire sound field is more tightly focused up and unified into a more homogenous whole. 

So as the voices become more cohesive, the sound field becomes more coherent, this can also lead to increases in the amount of power transfer from each voice both individually and collectively. 

One way to ‘test’ for this is to pay attention to how LOW can you crank the DRC knob DOWN (Dynamic Range Control, aka Moar-Knob) and still hear the lyrics or follow a particular voice.
And as coupling improves, the DRC can be lowered still further while the music will remain distinct and enjoyable. 
Another resulting consequence is the acoustic power created by speakers will carry further throughout the house, at ever lowered volume(s), or more accurately SPL (Sound Pressure Level).

These 3 aspects all have similar/common roots and have sonic attributes very similar to those I hear with improvements in jitter. 
My use of the term jitter here, includes analog based jitter, along with it’s digital cousin, since I hear their sonic characteristics match each other quite closely.
I’ll go more into my understanding of jitter later on, but simply put, jitter is all about timing and amplitude ‘errors’ that occur during playback. 
I hear the results of jitter in both the analog and digital domains.

What I have noted as a result of these sorts of improvements is an increase in the leading edge impact of just about every voice, along with all of the related harmonic structure that is generated by that voice, as each portion of sound is more closely aligned in time and amplitude to its ‘parent’, thus making each voice more complete or more aligned with itself.
The acoustic presentation becomes more real and believable with yet again, more ‘there’, there.

Then as the acoustic presentation continues to improve it becomes magical and takes on a degree of involvement that is both captivating and intriguing to such a degree that there is an involuntary body reaction known as ToeTappingTime and HeadBobbing&Weaving, which I’ll go more into later as well.

The music ‘transports’ you away from merely sitting and listening to the sweet spot, to being swept up in the music, and being carried away to wherever the music takes you, as the ‘richness’ of the experience becomes compelling.

And increases in these aspects also allows us, as we focus our attention, to ‘drill further down into’ a voice or pull our attention back out to the whole sound field, and in such a way that we can easily follow any chosen voice, regardless of what else is occurring in that moment.

*End part 2 * Next up is I4 and T3 and HB&W and more

JJ


----------



## BIG POPPA

speedskater said:


> johnjen said:
> 
> 
> > One other 'possible' solution is to ground the entire audio system independently of the ground buss in the panel.
> ...


 
 UM it is code. We do have a Journeyman Electrician to keep things up to spec. And do keep things in order.


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 3*

I rely upon the terms of *C3* & *I5* & *T3* & *HB&W* & S/*S* more so than the traditional terms like FR and S/N etc. because they represent the cumulative results of evaluations and are not simply numbers or single test results. But that isn’t to say single test results are ignored, no not by any means. They have already been taken into account and accepted for what they are by the equipment that has already been chosen.
You could think of these new terms as derivative interpretations, instead of the ‘raw’ or any calculated data itself.
I use these ‘new’ terms as a relative gauge for changes made in their respective domains.
Because after my setup has been modified, these tools are a way of capturing what differences are noticed, as described in these posts. 
These audibly characterized changes form the basis of acceptance or rejection which are due to the results of the modification(s) just made.

Let me add that PRaT (Pace Rhythm and Timing) is a close cousin to *C3* in that the sonic results of achieving a ‘satisfactory’ amount of PRaT and *C3* will yield similar sonic results. Namely our sense of connection to the music, and when the coupling between the external acoustic presentation and the internal experience starts to align, magic happens. I call this trait, this alignment, a ‘Central Nervous System Tap’ (*CNST*), which I’ll delve into more fully, later.

So up next is* I5* (Intelligibility). 
It’s a fairly easy technique to use, in that all you have to do is listen to the words sung or spoken and determine if you can understand each and every word, 
or not. 
Some albums are rather good for this in that the music itself is not overly complex (few(er) other ‘voices’ to interfere) but still the focused resolving ability of the playback system may be insufficient in some way, which can obscure some words.

This term originates from the telephone industry well before cell phones, where intelligibility was THE measure of the quality of the system. It was codified and even quantified so that there was a ‘standard’ by which situations could be compared. The plosive phonemes such as P’s - T’s were the key to the codification process. Plosives (denoting a consonant that is produced by stopping the airflow using the lips, teeth, or palate, followed by a sudden release of air.), essentially contain very low frequency components in their tonal makeup. And sibilant sounds, the S’s, are at the other end of the audio spectrum where articulation is more obscured due to the ‘masking’ nature of this white noise like sound.
These were the major phonemes that were used to quantify intelligibility for the telephone system back in its heyday. Fortunately we have an easier task in that all we need do is to listen and determine if we can hear and know what each and every word is, 
or not.
*I5* was quite useful back then and remains so now.

I like to use Dire Straits for this test because it is easy to hear Mark Knopflers voice, yet knowing exactly which words are being sung can be quite a challenge, well, at least for some words. This ability to hear precisely all the words, or now hear the words not understood before, is an easy test to use to determine if any changes to the setup result in an increase in the systems resolving ability, and specifically it points to the degree of Cohesion that each ‘voice’ has, and if it has been improved.

Next up is *T3* (ToeTapp’nTime) and *HB&W* (HeadBobbing & Weaving) and this test is also rather simple.
Does you foot start moving in time with the music?
Does your head start dancing on your neck when the music grabs your attention?
If so, the playback system has extended bass response capabilities.
This can be heard in the leading edge of most every voice, especially percussion instruments and the like, that have properly coupled acoustic impact and power. 
Even piccolo’s can have a sharp leading edge that once heard and noticed can be picked out by this test.

A sure fire way to tell if the playback system has extended bass response is to perform the absolute phase reversal test, which is easy to do via s/w or h/w means by flipping the absolute phase ‘switch’.
This is also a good way to find those tracks that indeed DO have extended bass down to the very lowest (and lower) octaves. 
Not all recorded music includes this portion of the acoustic spectrum.
So once you hear these portions of the frequency response spectrum, note what the album and track is for future testing/evaluation.
I have a playlist called Bass 2 the MAX, just for this very purpose.

If there is no real difference in the bass impact between one absolute phase setting and another, assuming the music you are using actually has deep extended bass, then there is a ‘choke point’ somewhere in the system that is effectively truncating the lowest octaves. 
I ‘stumbled’ upon this when I made my own AC power cables, where all of a sudden this ‘choke point’ was removed.
My immediate reaction was OH YEAH!!!! 
The increase and extension of the bass response was quite apparent. 
And yes it did take hundreds of hours to reach their full bass capability.
And it took over 500 hours of break in to know if my current cables were capable of passing this one single test. AND only after cooking the cables on an ‘industrial’ strength cooker, did they actually pass.

And it should be noted that the capability of the systems bass response itself doesn’t need to be extended, because once a degree of coupling is achieved what bass response that does exist WILL be enhanced. 
And not just in extension, but I also noticed improvements in the leading edges of every bit of sonic information. 
Every voice’s primary tones (the parent, if you will) and all of it’s harmonically related resonant series of tones such as the ‘air’ that surrounds each voice, will be enhanced. 
As will the sound field’s contribution of resonant tones which are derived from the parent’s primary tones, and the physical device’s own resonant contributions, which helps form the parents primary tonalities. 
All of these unique resonances have tonal contributions which can be enhanced as well. 

All these separate series of harmonically related resonant tones ‘ride’ on top of the primary tones produced while playing. And as they get ‘locked back in’ with their parents with greater ‘precision’, the increase in the ‘punch’ or ability to deliver ‘power’ to those voices (along with their related resonant tones) increases. And those that contain plosives or are percussive in nature, get an increase in the smack or impact they can deliver.
This greater precision in the alignment of all the harmonically resonant tones to their ‘parent’ creates a tighter, more focused coupling of the energy available during the recreation and delivery of the analog signal.

I usually like to use bass that is electronic or orchestral works where they haul off and smack one of those 6’ drums, as but two suitable examples. 
It’s also fun to hear the entire acoustic space ‘Light Up’ or get resonantly energized and then hear this acoustic energy decay and recede into the distance.
Many of the Telarc albums have tracks that can have powerful bass with sharp percussive leading edges to those voices. Also many DMP recordings (Flim and the BB’s for example) and Béla Fleck and the Flectones are good examples to use for this. 
When the impacts hit, the extended lower harmonics can be surprising in how far they extend down. 
This is an example of Coupling in action and it can be quite satisfying.
This can result in hearing low frequency rumble, and when you first hear it and immediately know what it is, you’ll know your system has *C3* dialed in! 
And sometimes when you recognize that it’s the air handling system you’re hearing, it can be quite an eye opener!  

When all of these individual leading edges become effectively coupled with their ‘parent’ voice, I have found that *T3* and *HB&W* just automatically starts, seemingly all by itself. I know I can’t help myself, indeed I welcome these forms of confirmation that the sonic presentation is involving and engaging to that degree. Because when these attributes are all present and fully functioning, the music sucks me in and my analytic processes give way to being carried along with the music, which is one of my goals in listening to music to begin with.
An unanticipated and unexpected consequence of this degree of getting engaged in and with the music, is when you realize you’ve memorized all the lyrics to whole albums. And so to, is being able to effortlessly follow each and any individual voice, amid the complexity of the rest of the music. 

And lastly there is the *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) description of hearing and describing music, seemingly anew, even though it’s exactly the same track that has been repeatedly listened to countless times before. Sometimes, hopefully more often than not, the music ‘clicks into place’, every voice is recreated as a whole, and all of the sonic effects, be they natural (in a concert hall) or electronic (effects boxes, to studio magic) just all ‘line up in their proper time and place’. Each and every bit of acoustic information, and/or voice, in each moment, everything, just snaps into place, nothing is missing and it’s easy to tell because everything is clearly heard. This allows us to identify each voice and all of it’s related harmonic resonant tones for what they are and where they are and who they belong to… 
For the entirety of all that is heard, all in real time.

THIS is *S/S* Spooky/Scary 

One of my goals is to ‘increase’ the ratio of having Spooky/Scary ‘show up’, more often than not.
So when my minds nitpick ‘function’ gives way to enjoyment and the timeless experience of being enveloped IN the music, that’s when I know I am getting close to the degree of ‘realism’ I am seeking.

JJ

*END Part 3 Next up Jitter & tLFF & DRC*


----------



## johnjen

Hoo Boy…
1st up, a hearty THANKS to atomicbob for this opportunity to explore the differences between the Bimby and Gumby dacs.
We talked about a great many things, listened to some fine music, tweaked the setup, compared notes, and we both learned a great deal.
Which really is the best part.
AND since we both agreed with a great deal of the info we shared, we both confirmed (to ourselves anyway) we AREN'T CRAZY, or, er, well, any more crazy than the rest of you who will read this. :atsmile:

And now the rest of the story…

So to set the scene and paint a picture of who and what was involved here…
Think DR. Science and the neighborhood kid, Jimmy, in the back of the good DRs. laboratory with all of the sciency stuff glowing and humming with a bunch of ongoing experiments in one state of operation or another.
And then DR. Science sez, 
“Here Jimmy, hold these 2 wires…”
So of course Jimmy gets to experience, first hand, :atsmile: the wonders of electricity and for these experiments some acoustics as well.

These are the results of this joint effort… 

We were using a bel canto e.One REFlink DDC (digital to digital converter) to send a SPDIF data stream to both DACS which was fed via usb from the laptop, running JRiver, Sonarworks Ref 3 plug-in, in Windoz 10.
And we used a Radial Engineering TwinISO balanced to SE converter, which uses Jensen transformers, so it’s a passive conversion.
This way we could try either the balanced or the SE outputs from the Gumby and compare them to the Bimby. 

We also were using a Goldpoint (SA1X) passive balanced attenuator to level match the balanced to SE converted outputs of the Gumby to the Bimby.
We did manage to get them matched within ≈ 0.26dB.
And we used a 2nd Goldpoint (SA2) passive attenuator and selector, for the A/B function to control (with fixed steps for easy repeatability) the overall gain to the amp.

Our conclusions are (the envelope please)…
The Bimby (SE only) and Gumby (using the SE output) are or can be REALLY close.
Cables will have a greater net effect, (ie. will further 'color' the end results), MOAR than the differences between these 2 dacs, in SE mode.

We played around with SE interconnects and where the 'best' cables went, that was the 'better' sound.
In fact when we 1st started, the Bimby had the ‘best’ cables and the Gumby had the ‘not best’ cables.
I figured (not yet knowing this) based upon the overall sound signature I was listening to the Gumby when in fact it was the Bimby.
So we switched the SE cables and even tried a pair of real short Pyst cables, and that’s when we figured out that the ‘best’ DAC followed the ‘best’ cables.
When identical cables were used the differences were so close, it was simply amazing.
Yes there were barely perceptible differences, but they were so slight, I lack the vocabulary to enunciate them with any real degree of elucidation… :atsmile:

In addition I heard a reduction in output of upper mid to top end when the signal passed thru the balanced to SE passive xfrmr and passive balanced attenuator. Which in some cases (think poorly mastered CD’s with ‘etch’) could be of benefit. 
So the SE outputs from the Gumby was ‘better’ than the converted balanced outputs, in terms of matching the SQ output to the Bimby, when driving a SE’d amp, using this setup.

So in effect if you’re running in SE mode only, the Bimby is a no brainer at $600.
And if you have a balanced amp then, perhaps, the Gumby or Jggy might be worth twice or 4 times the cost of the Bimby.

We were using the Project Sunrise III amp and after we dropped the output impedance to it’s lowest setting while feeding both the 800's or the 650’s, the bass came up nicely as well as a tetch bit more 'sparkle' (slightly better inner details and definition) in the mids and up.

I think that was when we heard a guy cough/wheeze at the beginning of the Reference Recording of the Firebird suite in 172.4K native rez.
What I heard was a guy semi-stifling a cough (he exhaled/wheezed over a second or 2 instead of a plosive cough) during a sorta quieter passage in the first minute or so.
It’s like when you hear someone drop a pencil or pen on the floor, or the shuffling of paper (sheet music?) or the musicians joking in the background, or hear the ‘degree’ of audience participation etc., all while the musicians are playing.
But what is truly significant here is not that you can hear these background ‘events’, but that you can clearly identify them for what they are.
THAT is when you know you’re hearing something special.

And now that this level of ‘transparency’ has become available in a $600 dac, well I figure the dac world is in for, shall we say, a bit of a re-shuffle.

We both agreed that the Sonarworks EQ plug-in REALLY helped as well, especially when it gets dialed in by playing with the ‘knobs’ just a bit.

*Interesting Observation Alert!
Has anyone else noticed the comments being made recently, with increasing regularity, that people are finding it REALLY HARD to take their headphones off and STOP listening?
These Multibit dacs are delivering this level of IMPERATIVE involvement at a price point that ANYone who wants a decent headphone based audio system can afford, even if it’s one piece at a time.
Lately, I too have been subjected to this extra late night, blurried eyes in the morning routine, but my dac didn’t cost $600.
And to be able to listen to a system that is so captivating and involving that it DEMANDS your attention to the point that it’s 3am and you think, just one more, and no I won’t look at the clock, I don’t want to know what time it is… :atsmile:

I’m seeing more and more evidence of this is happening…

And now back to our regular program of dance music…
er no, wait,
what…?*

So in this case, when the phase reversal trick, along with, the Sonarworks DSP plugin, (after tweaking it just a bit), and adding just a touch of subsonic bass, are all combined with this system, the end results are most gratifying.
And in some cases the results can be quite unexpected. 

Next we simplified the entire setup and used the Bimby via a direct USB data feed from the laptop to the Sunrise amp driving the 800’s and 650’s.
I immediately noticed a change in the ‘density’ of the acoustical soundstage. The USB had more ‘there’ there, when compared to the usb to spdif converted signal we were using previously.
It had greater impact and what I refer to as coupling. This is where the acoustical energy has more ‘power’ behind it.
IOW the signal presented to my ears had more presence, power, and impact due to what I describe as better timing and precision in terms of the reconstructed analog signal from its digital source.

THEN we played around with the short (11" to ≈ 24") 4pin xlr to 1/4" balanced to unbalanced adapters, which we used to plug in the balanced HPs into the Sunrise amp.

I really was amazed at how much difference we could hear between the 6 different adapters.
I figured it might be rather slight to near impossible to tell, I mean it’s like all we did was try 6 different chunks of 1-2’ of wire, but instead there was a great deal more variation than I anticipated.
It may have had something to do with the different lengths, except the 2 ‘best’ were almost the longest and almost the shortest cables of the bunch.
It may have something to do with metallurgy, or perhaps the physical construction of the wires, but again the 2 ‘best’ were radically different types of wires, so I really can’t say why these 2 were the ‘best’ of those we had on hand.

Here is the collection of cables we used.
Maybe we should see who can guess which pair were the best? 


And here is the whole setup after being reduced down to it’s simplest configuration.


That Sunrise amp is a real sleeper.
To be able to pair well with both the 650’s and 800’s means it scales really well right along with the Bimby and with other ‘optional’ hardware tweaks (like a better outboard power supply, cables, etc.)
It has the best of all worlds, (runs in class A, NO feedback, tube and mosfet, 6 or 12 volt tubes, easy bias etc. etc.) all neatly setup in an easy to tweak/configure/tube roll/package.
And it scales REALLY well right along with the HD 650’s

Which all combine in this killer ≈ $1500 system to make for hours and hours of tweaking and listening enjoyment.
AND this is not only a REALLY good starter package, but is good enough to act as a reference system for any further improvements, or for building a second system.


Here is the list of equipment we used during all of this.

*JRiver MC20 in Windoz 10
Sonarworks Ref 3 HP compensation DSP plug-in
bel canto e.One REFlink USB to SPDIF converter
Schiit Gungnir MB DAC (Gumby)
Schiit Bifrost MB DAC (Bimby)
Garage 1217 Project Sunrise III amp with Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 tube
Talema LPS 25VA linear power supply for PS-III
Goldpoint SA2 passive attenuation with switch for A/B selection
Goldpoint SA1X balanced passive attenuation (Gumby balance output matching)
Radial Engineering TwinISO with Jensen transformers (balanced to unbalance conversion)
Sennheiser HD650 headphones (stock) BTG Audio Sunset cable
Sennheiser HD800 headphones (stock) Norne Audio Draug cable
Sennheiser HD800 headphones (modded) SAA Endorphine cable, hardwired
Tecnec SPDIF cables with Canare LV-77S broadcast video 75 ohm cable.
AudioQuest Forest USB cable
Sescom XLRM to XLRF cables with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S starquad cable
Sescom XLRF to RCA cables with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S starquad cable
Custom XLRF to XLRM four pin polarity reversal adapter with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S cable
DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA interconnects
Schiit Pyst RCA interconnects
Blue Jeans cables RCA interconnects
* Q Audio TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter
* Custom TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Neutrik TRS and XLR connectors, Canare L-4E6S cable)
* BTG Audio Sunset TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Furutech TRS, Neutrik XLR)
* Norne Audio Draug TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter
* Custom TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Neutrik connector and cut end of HD600 stock cable with TRS connector)
* Zy Hifi TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter

Music from 44.1K to 192K
HD Tracks and Reference Recordings for high rez sources.*

The *’d items are the adapters we tested…

All in all, we learned some really ‘gud’ stuff’!


So Jimmy did live to tell the tale, for one and all to read and gain a few more data points from, even after holding those 2 wires. :atsmile:

But now Jimmy’s dilemma has grown even greater…
Bimby - $600 ?
Gumby - $600 x 2 ?
Jggy - $600 x 4 ?

Which one is the ‘right’ one for Jimmy’s requirements…?

Choices - choices, decisions - decision,
It’s so hard to choose, any more.
B, or G, or J?


JJ


----------



## painted klown

johnjen said:


> Here is the collection of cables we used.
> Maybe we should see who can guess which pair were the best?


 
 Thank you for your great write up!!! This is the type of info I think a lot of people are clamoring for. Having never heard any Schiit products, their multibit DACs have my curiosity piqued!
  
 Regarding the cables, I have always been under the impression that any Monoprice cable will suffice, and thus, have never moved on from them. However, I do not detect any sort of agenda or pre-conceived notions creeping into your analysis, so I MUST ask...what two cables were the best? I seriously would have no clue when it comes to cable upgrades/swapping.
  
 Thanks again, excellent write up!


----------



## atomicbob

painted klown said:


> Thank you for your great write up!!! This is the type of info I think a lot of people are clamoring for. Having never heard any Schiit products, their multibit DACs have my curiosity piqued!
> 
> Regarding the cables, I have always been under the impression that any Monoprice cable will suffice, and thus, have never moved on from them. However, I do not detect any sort of agenda or pre-conceived notions creeping into your analysis, so I MUST ask...what two cables were the best? I seriously would have no clue when it comes to cable upgrades/swapping.
> 
> Thanks again, excellent write up!


 
 The 6 adapter cables were listed in the preference order. Note that number two on the list is a custom made cable using Neutrik TRS and 4-pin XLRF connectors with Canare L-4E6S cable which anyone with soldering skills can make. About $10 in parts.


----------



## kstuart

johnjen said:


> *Interesting Observation Alert!
> Has anyone else noticed the comments being made recently, with increasing regularity, that people are finding it REALLY HARD to take their headphones off and STOP listening?
> These Multibit dacs are delivering this level of IMPERATIVE involvement at a price point that ANYone who wants a decent headphone based audio system can afford, even if it’s one piece at a time.
> Lately, I too have been subjected to this extra late night, blurried eyes in the morning routine, but my dac didn’t cost $600.
> ...


 
 Just talking about this quote above.
  
 This is the inverse of a phenomenon that has been reported frequently over the past 20 years or so.... which is that people listen to music for shorter periods of time since the advent of Digital Audio.   (Which probably explains the shift back from albums to single songs, that became set in stone by the iPod Playlist.)
  
 Digital Audio, using cheap components, has a hard, cold sound without details and without normal room ambience.  So, it is fatiguing to listen to Digital Audio for 99%+ of people.  This is one reason for the resurgence of vinyl.
  
 So, what people are experiencing with a Multibit DAC with normal detail and ambience, is *the actual musical performance.  *
 Not perfect fidelity, but close enough that the mind can actually listen without fatigue.


----------



## Tuco1965

kstuart said:


> Just talking about this quote above.
> 
> This is the inverse of a phenomenon that has been reported frequently over the past 20 years or so.... which is that people listen to music for shorter periods of time since the advent of Digital Audio.   (Which probably explains the shift back from albums to single songs, that became set in stone by the iPod Playlist.)
> 
> ...




It's like an audio Event Horizon.


----------



## ericr

Nice work, guys!


----------



## johnjen

tuco1965 said:


> It's like an audio Event Horizon.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahaha

I like this analogy, a lot.

Do you mind if I 'borrow' it?
I may have to use it in the future…

JJ :thumb :thumb


----------



## gefski

A great piece of work on the Bimby and Gumby, guys! Looks like Schiit has lit a bomb under that market segment. 

Since you have an unlimited budget, when are you going to throw a Musette into the mix?


----------



## wahsmoh

The Theta opened my eyes so much earlier this year in May when I got one. I had the Uber and it swept the floor with it. I can justly say the Bimby is one hell of a DAC and your ears are all finally being graced with the musical bliss that the Yggy people were all dancing around about but with less overall resolution. If you have an Uber you should upgrade it or sell it cause it isn't worth listening to once you get the Bifrost MB


----------



## johnjen

kstuart said:


> Just talking about this quote above.
> 
> This is the inverse of a phenomenon that has been reported frequently over the past 20 years or so.... which is that people listen to music for shorter periods of time since the advent of Digital Audio.   (Which probably explains the shift back from albums to single songs, that became set in stone by the iPod Playlist.)
> 
> ...


I've been 'tracking' this and similar aspects that are changing as the equipment continues to improve, and as these improvements trickle down to lower priced gear.

The Bimby is the epitome of this, where HUGE improvements manifest in (comparatively) very inexpensive gear.
But the beauty is in matching this level of performance with equally as scaleable supporting gear in the same price bracket.

So in this case not only has this $1500 system 'broken' that '1 track at a time' paradigm it has done so in a way that negates its very existence, ie. you CAN'T stop listening.

Now there are other systems, WAY more expensive systems that can do this as well, but not ALL big bux$$$$$$ systems can grab ones attention, 
and 
not let go!

I expect to hear more of these types of reports.
BUT…
There are whole nuther levels/layers to this "and not let go!", that are just around the corner, so to speak.
I'm starting to see and hear evidence of this just peeking from around that very same corner.

And these 'further developments' will be noticed by more and more folks, AND these "'further developments'", will be a source of involvement directly with and IN the music few heretofore have experienced.

It's WAY frick'n cool when these 'further developments' kick in.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> A great piece of work on the Bimby and Gumby, guys! Looks like Schiit has lit a bomb under that market segment.
> 
> Since you have an unlimited budget, when are you going to throw a Musette into the mix?



WELL, now that you mention it… :atsmile:

Have you got one you can donate, ya know for Science and Mom and Apple Pie, so we can gain more experience as we approach that "audio Event Horizon"? :atsmile:

I just thought I'd ask, is all…
You know in the name of science and stuff… :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## gefski

"Interesting Observation Alert!
Has anyone else noticed the comments being made recently, with increasing regularity, that people are finding it REALLY HARD to take their headphones off and STOP listening?"


JJ, here's an addition to your quote above. Now, a few months into Yggy on my desktop, the *"fiddle factor"* has gone way down for me. I haven't even bothered to unplug the HD 650 and listen to another can for weeks, haven't changed cables, tubes, nothing. Just ripping more of my cds, buying more music, and sinking into albums.

That doesn't mean I can't improve the system. That will still be fun, especially going to meets and listening to "new", but this is just so...relaxing.

Actually, it's the *staggering transparency/relaxed presentation combination* that has me knocked out. Will try to put some words to that when I have time.


----------



## atomicbob

gefski said:


> "Interesting Observation Alert!
> Has anyone else noticed the comments being made recently, with increasing regularity, that people are finding it REALLY HARD to take their headphones off and STOP listening?"
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Glenn, you need  to hear the Bifrost MB with the Project Sunrise III and HD650. Fiddle factor goes waaaaay down. Only ZDSE or Liquid Crimson steps the game up, but for 10x investment. Gungnir MB also gives more resolution, when desired, but at 2x cost. The modest system evaluated is a major player at not much money. However I see a lot of hours on the Liquid Crimson and BiMB in my future. There is something special happening with the parallel conversion of the AD5547 DAC.


----------



## gefski

atomicbob said:


> Glenn, you need  to hear the Bifrost MB with the Project Sunrise III and HD650. Fiddle factor goes waaaaay down. Only ZDSE or Liquid Crimson steps the game up, but for 10x investment. Gungnir MB also gives more resolution, when desired, but at 2x cost. The modest system evaluated is a major player at not much money. However I see a lot of hours on the Liquid Crimson and BiMB in my future. There is something special happening with the parallel conversion of the AD5547 DAC.




I'll bet it is special, your Gumby setup sure was impressive.

Plus, the Bifrost is a gem, fit, finish, and form wise. Mine is under wraps, semi retired.

The Yggy really is a big clunk on my desktop, especially since I don't like to stack components.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, will return with some more suitable thoughts when I have a chance.


----------



## kstuart

johnjen said:


> That Sunrise amp is a real sleeper.
> To be able to pair well with both the 650’s and 800’s means it scales really well right along with the Bimby and with other ‘optional’ hardware tweaks (like a better outboard power supply, cables, etc.)
> It has the best of all worlds, (runs in class A, NO feedback, tube and mosfet, 6 or 12 volt tubes, easy bias etc. etc.) all neatly setup in an easy to tweak/configure/tube roll/package.
> And it scales REALLY well right along with the HD 650’s


 
 Was the Project Sunrise III amp used simply because it was something that was "on hand"?
  
 I ask because it is designed for 32-64 ohm headphones like the HE-500s, and the same guy has a similar amp specifically designed for high impedance headphones like the HD650, which he calls "Project Horizon III":
  
 http://www.garage1217.com/G1217PRODUCTS/Guide/Comparison%20Guide.pdf


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> I'll bet it is special, your Gumby setup sure was impressive.
> 
> Plus, the Bifrost is a gem, fit, finish, and form wise. Mine is under wraps, semi retired.
> 
> ...


As I see it these sorts of comments are precisely what this thread is about.

What does, and what doesn't work for our systems and WHY!

Insights gained and shared hopefully will invite additional comments and so feed upon itself.

As the saying goes, "It isn't the destination, but the journey that is important".

JJ


----------



## atomicbob

kstuart said:


> Was the Project Sunrise III amp used simply because it was something that was "on hand"?
> 
> I ask because it is designed for 32-64 ohm headphones like the HE-500s, and the same guy has a similar amp specifically designed for high impedance headphones like the HD650, which he calls "Project Horizon III":
> 
> http://www.garage1217.com/G1217PRODUCTS/Guide/Comparison%20Guide.pdf


 
 Available that day were a Zana Deux SE, Violectric V200, Project Ember, Bravo V2 (blech!), Matrix Mini-i, Leckerton UHA-6SmkII, and a few others I can't remember right now. I chose the PS-III as I felt it provided the best synergy short of the ZDSE which wouldn't fit within a budget oriented theme. The PS-III is designed for 32-300 ohms. It sounds very special with the Bifrost MB and HD650, with an Electro-Harmonix 12BH7. Not bad for a budget system that plays in a much higher league than the modest investment would suggest.


----------



## tonykaz

Hello AtomicBob,
  
 I'm getting excited by my readings of the PS111.  
  
 How long have you had this and where on earth did you discover it? 
  
 Seems like you hit a vein.  
  
 Tony in rainy Michigan listening to Van the man Morrison


----------



## atomicbob

tonykaz said:


> Hello AtomicBob,
> 
> I'm getting excited by my readings of the PS111.
> 
> ...


 
 I first heard a Garage1217 Project Ember at a head-fi meet at BottleHead headquarters on Bainbridge Island awhile back. I was intrigued by this open frame hybrid amp. Then I picked up the Bravo V2 as it was a cheap (really cheap) open frame amp. It didn't sound bad, but it didn't sound all that good either. Then I noticed that G1217 also made a hybrid with a circuit topology similar to the Bravo (but the PS-III is designed correctly.) I took a chance and acquired one. The topology has a tube providing what it does best, voltage gain, and the output of the tube plate goes directly to the gate of a mosfet running class A, doing what it does best, current gain.
  
 Am I glad now I took this chance. Subbing a Linear Power Supply for the SMPS, pairing with a Mousai MSD192 and HD650 and before i new it I had a rocking budget system. Recently we put the Schiit Bifrost MB in place of the MSD192. The evolved budget system busts preconceived notions that you have to spend enormous amounts of money to achieve auditory delight. Now I have other systems that can delivery higher resolution or greater (name your favorite parameter here), but they require a lot more investment. Sure the Liquid Crimson or ZDSE rocks. At 10x the price of the PS-III. And I do appreciate the Liquid Crimson and ZDSE for the extra performance that they deliver. Not everyone can justify such investment. So the goal is how far up the Receiver Operating Curve of price performance can we put a budget system. This one will be hard to beat.


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## tonykaz

Mr.AB,
  
 That is quite a story.  
  
 Hmm, seems right outa the blue you stumble over a greatness.  Of course I realize that you were prepared from all the experience with all the gear you surround yourself with.  
  
 Another greatness is that folks can simply follow along in your wake and achieve nice results.  Wonderful of you to share.
  
 I was reading along on one of your renderings when you suggested that you had future hours planned for the PS111 & Bifrost Multi.  I wasn't quite paying attention and thought you were talk'n about a PS Audio piece.  Having sold scads of PS Audio stuff 30 years ago, I just gave it a pass and though you were a bit looney or had a bit extra of that wine in the Picture ( or was it NyQuil?) .   But I couldn't get it outa my back thoughts that you were saying something here, something profound. So I went back and took a much closer look and realized you were talking Sunrise here.  Hmmmmm, again! 
  
 So, now I'm seeing a path, much like the path you recommended those many months ago, the Bottlehead path that I heard and liked at the Ann Arbor meet but also heard the Yggy and didn't like it at all. Confused and worried I had the University of Michigan Medical help me with my hearing needs.  They did just that and now I'm hearing better than I ever remember hearing. 
  
 So I was about to go back down that Bottlehead Path or the Schiit Valhala 2 path. But your ( initial?) reporting on the Bi Multi & Sunrise brought me to a full stall.   
  
 Now, I have more to be patient about. But I'm taking the first steps.
  
 Thank you for writing. 
  
 Geez, I feel lucky over this discovery.
  
 Tony in Michigan


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## kstuart

For those contemplating purchases.
  
 The Project Sunrise III is designed for 32-64 ohm headphones like the HE-500s, and the same designer has a similar amp - probably the same circuit - specifically designed for high impedance headphones like the HD650 (and HD600 and HD800, which he calls "Project Horizon III".  The following link has graphs that illustrate the performance of both amps at various impedances, making the choice clear for people who are dedicated users of a particular model headphones:
  
http://www.garage1217.com/G1217PRODUCTS/Guide/Comparison%20Guide.pdf
  
 There is undoubtedly a "Project Horizon III" thread somewhere on Head-Fi for those who are interested.


----------



## landroni

kstuart said:


> For those contemplating purchases.
> 
> 
> The Project Sunrise III is designed for 32-64 ohm headphones like the HE-500s, and the same designer has a similar amp - probably the same circuit - specifically designed for high impedance headphones like the HD650 (and HD600 and HD800, which he calls "Project Horizon III".  The following link has graphs that illustrate the performance of both amps at various impedances, making the choice clear for people who are dedicated users of a particular model headphones:
> ...


 

 I know little and less about Project Sunrise III, but from their product page:
 http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_002.htm
  
 Suitable for: 32 - 300 Ohm HeadphonesTubes
  
  
 Probably not for 600 Ohm, but this seems to be suitable for 300 Ohm headphones...


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> Am I glad now I took this chance. Subbing a Linear Power Supply for the SMPS, pairing with a Mousai MSD192 and HD650 and before i new it I had a rocking budget system. Recently we put the Schiit Bifrost MB in place of the MSD192. The evolved budget system busts preconceived notions that you have to spend enormous amounts of money to achieve auditory delight. Now I have other systems that can delivery higher resolution or greater (name your favorite parameter here), but they require a lot more investment. Sure the *Liquid Crimson *or ZDSE *rocks*. *At 10x the price of the PS-III. *And I do appreciate the Liquid Crimson and ZDSE for the extra performance that they deliver. Not everyone can justify such investment. So the goal is how far up the Receiver Operating Curve of price performance can we put a budget system. This one will be hard to beat.


 

 Did you ever get the chance to pair Bimby with the Liquid Carbon amp? I hear it's a Cavalli budget beast at 600$, and many seem to be grabbing it for their R2R systems...


----------



## atomicbob

landroni said:


> Did you ever get the chance to pair Bimby with the Liquid Carbon amp? I hear it's a Cavalli budget beast at 600$, and many seem to be grabbing it for their R2R systems...


 
 My Liquid Carbon doesn't ship until next week at the earliest. I'm still power aging the Liquid Crimson. I will have to be careful and not use the typical LC abbreviation, used by many elsewhere, or everyone (including me) will be confused as to which amp is being discussed.


----------



## atomicbob

landroni said:


> I know little and less about Project Sunrise III, but from their product page:
> http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_002.htm
> 
> Suitable for: 32 - 300 Ohm HeadphonesTubes
> ...


 
 The Project Sunrise III works fine for me with HD600, HD650, HD800. I haven't noted any deficiencies, just a very natural, enjoyable sound when combined with either the MSD192 and especially the Bifrost MB.


----------



## kstuart

landroni said:


> kstuart said:
> 
> 
> > For those contemplating purchases.
> ...


 

 Suitable and optimal are two different things.  Look at the graphs.  Here is their description:
  
 " Project Horizon III Tube Headphone Amplifier - Pre-Amp:
 Project Horizon is a sister amplifier to Project Sunrise III even sharing the same PCB. Understanding the want and need for a version specifically built for high impedance headphones, Project Horizon was born. Horizon costs a bit more than Sunrise III as it takes quite a few more parts and a much higher voltage power supply. Horizon is quite a beast and just like Sunrise III, she is very musical and offers loads of adjustability combined with the ability to roll a ton of tubes. Horizon is a real staple to our lineup and also has been reviewed and loved globally! "
  
 The actual difference in price is $25, about 10%.


----------



## atomicbob

kstuart said:


> Suitable and optimal are two different things.  Look at the graphs.  Here is their description:
> 
> " Project Horizon III Tube Headphone Amplifier - Pre-Amp:
> Project Horizon is a sister amplifier to Project Sunrise III even sharing the same PCB. Understanding the want and need for a version specifically built for high impedance headphones, Project Horizon was born. Horizon costs a bit more than Sunrise III as it takes quite a few more parts and a much higher voltage power supply. Horizon is quite a beast and just like Sunrise III, she is very musical and offers loads of adjustability combined with the ability to roll a ton of tubes. Horizon is a real staple to our lineup and also has been reviewed and loved globally! "
> ...


 
 That may be true about suitable vs. optimal. The graphs show maximum power optimized to different nominal impedances. Yet either will deliver 100mW easily to a 300 ohm headphone. With a sensitivity of 102 dB/mW for the HD600 / 650 / 800 family, 100mW will deliver an ear splitting 112 dB SPL avg and 122 dB SPL peak for music with 10 dB of crest factor. I am intrigued by the differences though, and may have to add one to my already burgeoning headphone amp collection. Any of the Garage1217 are really good amps. Highly recommended.


----------



## kstuart

I have to assume they would not go to all the trouble of creating a new amp specifically for high impedance headphones, if there was no benefit to using it, in place of the existing Sunrise amp.


----------



## atomicbob

One reason might include having 48V available for the tube plate rather than 24V. You'll notice I always mention using a particular 12BH7 with my Project Sunrise, which happens to have a nicer sound and lower noise than other 9 pin tubes, and much less than any of the 8 pin octals that I have tried. 24V isn't a lot but it works given the topology requires only approx. 400 uA of plate current. Project Horizon puts the plate voltage available into a higher region on the current - voltage tube plate characteristic curves. That alone will probably push me to acquire one.


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## kstuart

If you do get a Horizon, keep us posted on your impressions, thanks !


----------



## johnjen

*Hoo Boy…
Part Deux*

Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
And they are even smaller than I thought, while running in SE mode.

During our preceding exploration of these 2 dacs using the Sunrise amp and HD650, the differences were so slight that it was hard to pick one over the other in terms of SQ alone.

In my research I have found that when the differences are ≈10% or less, the ability to reliably differentiate such differences, as slight as these, is essentially naught.
IOW I couldn’t tell one from the other in terms of which was ‘better’.
And as I stated, “Yes there were barely perceptible differences, but they were so slight, I lack the vocabulary to enunciate them with any real degree of elucidation… ”, and this evaluation still holds true.

So for this next stage of evaluation we substituted for the ‘lowly’ Project Sunrise III, for the brand new, hot off of the production line, Cavalli Crimson amp, which some consider THE hot item right now.
I figured the Crimson’s ‘superior’ resolution, power, SoTA design and tighter tolerances in manufacturing would reveal more of the differences between these 2 dacs. 
And so I figured it would be ‘easy(er)’ to pick which dac was ‘better’.
That was my bias heading into this round of tests.

And this time we had a truly hardware matched evaluation setup.
ALL the wires for the Bimby were identical to those used with the Gumby, right down to the power cables, and up to the bel canto SPDIF converter.
This included their lengths, type of wire used, the connectors etc.

The A/B selector switch and stepped attenuator was the same as before (*Goldpoint SA2 passive attenuation with switch for A/B selection*), but this time the wiring was ‘hidden’ so neither of us victims volunteers knew which dac was assigned to which switch position.

I utterly failed, again, to clearly tell which dac was which.

I knew that there was a 0.5dB gain difference between the dacs but that was the extent of’ my foreknowledge.
Only atomicBob knew which dac was ‘hotter’, so Big Poppa and I were left to figure which dac was which.

Yeah the ever so slight differences remained and we both detected and correctly identified the 0.5dB gain difference using the A/B switch, and we both identified an ever so slight change of nuance in tonality as well. 
That we could tell an improvement in SQ of the lowered output Gumby attests to the SQ of these 2 dacs and our ability to peer into the music and counter the difference (albeit 0.5dB) in gain. 
And we (at least I) assumed/guessed this was the Gumby, but it was FAR to close to make a definitive assessment.
Both dacs presented a lovely sonic image with detail and resolution and precise image position and outline definition.
I simply couldn’t definitively tell, they were that close.

And when Big Poppa picked out the Gumby he said, “it was splitting frog hairs”.
He figured there was like a 1-2% difference between these 2 dacs, which made it really hard for him to tell them apart.
And he was unfamiliar with the music we were using, whereas I was familiar, so along with hearing the 0.5dB difference in gain, his ability to hear which was ‘better’ is all the more impressive.

_And speaking of familiarity of the music…
We have one track that we use to help us with delineating ultra fine inner details and focus.
Have you ever heard a track with the sound of rain falling that actually sounds like rain? 
Not a swishing nor a phisssing sound but of actual rain drops falling on the ground and you can actually sense the ‘wetness’ of the rain and hear it change as it rains harder?

This is a real true test of any system’s ability to recreate and present the acoustical signature of rain, such that it is unmistakable, ie. you KNOW its rain and not a facsimile nor some sound effect that sorta sounds like rain.
This is no small task as this sound resembles the sound of masking (white or pink noise), such that only a highly resolving system will be able to differentiate the sound of rain from ‘noise’.

The Bimby can and does fulfill this task, even on the $1500 system we tested before the Crimson amp was put to the test.

But wait, there’s more…
This test track has the rain in the background, which means the foreground instruments are playing over the top of the rain.
This additional foreground layer makes it even moar difficult to hear the rain as rain.

Yet the Bimby and the Gumby deliver enough of the presence and subtle intonation of rain such that rain IS what is heard and not some semblance of rain.
I swear I can hear the moisture in the air change as it rains harder.
And of course living up here in the PNW, where we KNOW rain, certainly helps keep us familiarized with its sound, all to often… 

Bonus points for those who recognize this obscure quotation… 
“And now we return you to the further adventures of Nick Danger 3rd eye…”_

So our collective sets of ears and experience were stymied by these two sets of tests.

Which also tells us that the differences between the Sunrise III ($250) and the Crimson ($2,850) amps were not enough to help differentiate these 2 dacs either.
They truly ARE that close in SE mode.

And it should also be noted that Bob had listened to “a pile of 9 pin tubes” before settling upon a 12BH7 for the Sunrise III amp because it had;
1. no microphonics
2. minimal internal electronic noise which disappeared upon completion of powerage
3. excellent bandwidth
4. best overall sound
5. current in production and available for $22 (not unobtainum ridiculous prices)
Which points directly at the Sunrise’s versatility and tweakability as it ‘encourages’ tube rolling so easily.

And again we shared stories, and valuable information as to what we have learned, both what works and what doesn’t, which often times is much more valuable.
We listened to some good music and scratched our heads even more than in the 1st session.
And if this keeps up we may need to join the hair club for men… 

So here is a picture of the setup, in which you can see the sonarworks plugin running in JRiver,
which then feeds the bel canto e.One REFlink usb to spdif DDC (digital to digital converter),
which then feeds both of the dacs, 
which then are routed to the A/B switched, stepped attenuator,
with DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix cables used for all RCA interconnects
which then drives the Cavalli Crimson amp,
and lastly the HD650 headphones.






So what does all of this tell us?
1st…
The family resemblance between these 2 dacs is mighty strong.
And even though there are major technical differences (dac chips used) and the change in sophistication of the support circuitry, (the power supplies and digital circuit paths that feed the actual dac chips, not to mention the analog output circuitry), are quite different between these 2 units.
And granted the Gumby delivers both balanced and single ended (SE) outputs of which we have only evaluated it’s SE outputs thus far.

But what they DO have in common is that a DSP controller is feeding the data stream to the dac chips using the “supercomboburrito” filter.
And this one single commonality seems to be the deciding factor in why they sound so similar but also do so independent of the design of the ’support’ hardware used.

This is a remarkable achievement for Mike Moffat, and his design, development and implementation team(s) that have brought to the entire field of audio, by any standard or measure.
To be able to have nearly the same degree of performance of a dac at 1/2 or even 1/4 of the price of its’ progenitors is remarkable for a variety of reasons.

I remain astonished at their technological achievements.

2nd…
Improving the ‘quality’ of the amp did not really aid in differentiating these 2 dacs.
Granted the Crimson needed more break-in time to be able to reach full resolution and focus.
Still the Crimson had some additional resolving capability and dynamics etc. but all of that didn’t help us.
These dacs are so close that if your system is SE only, there is really no reason in terms of audible SQ to spend any more $.

And it should be mentioned that these 2 amps share similar design objectives, namely they both use a dual triode tube for input voltage gain and solid state mosfets for the output current gain.
Which may account for the degree of close similarity between these 2 amps which are at near opposite ends of the $$$-$$$$ continuum. 

And as atomicbob noted, the Crimson is like a highly focused race car, its performance so ‘tweaked’ that it richly rewards the listener when used with source components and headphones equally as capable. 

Whereas the Sunrise is much easier to live with, and tweak/tube roll, and adapt to the specific needs of a wide range of setups.

Lastly, our aim is to pursue audio gear that is truly worthy such that it creates a special auditory experience. These amps, dacs, headphones and related gear are special in that way, and they work VERY well together to create a system that demands that you keep listening, regardless of what time it is, what else you should be doing, no matter how raised the eyebrows of SWMBO become.  

These components are magical when used together.
And they deliver an immersive and addicting experience as music you once thought you knew, 
is discovered anew, 
all over again.

I remain astonished at these technological achievements which atomicbob has brought together which result in astonishing qualitative improvements, along with the IMPERATIVE nature (as in I MUST listen) of the experience.
I think we all are witnessing milestones in the making.

JJ
ps I just discovered that I also have that same track of the Firebird with the guy coughing. It happens about 10 seconds into the piece. And for the first time I have a sonic difference I can directly attribute to the superiority of the Bimby/Gumby dacs vs. my PWD.

And yes I can hear him cough, but it wasn’t as distinct, nor as individuated.
IOW listening to the Bimby/Gumby, his cough was distinct enough to draw attention to itself, whereas my PWD is more ‘subtle’. 
But once I knew what it was and that it was there, it was easier to hear, but it’s just not as distinct.


----------



## landroni

Fascinating account, thank you. A couple of remarks and questions below...

  
 Quote:


johnjen said:


> Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
> And they are even smaller than I thought, while running in SE mode.


 User @Stillhart has reported on a previous occasion that:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/763905/finding-a-dac-for-the-cavalli-liquid-carbon-only-four-months-to-go/1005#post_11872598
 "The GMB’s SE output sounds noticeably worse (mids are very recessed) than the balanced output. This is very easily tested on the LC [Liquid Carbon]."

 Have you noticed anything similar? Does this mean that Bimby is "noticeably worse" than Gumby balanced output (and by extension Yggy)?


  


> The A/B selector switch and stepped attenuator was the same as before (*Goldpoint SA2 passive attenuation with switch for A/B selection*), but this time the wiring was ‘hidden’ so neither of us victims volunteers knew which dac was assigned to which switch position.
> 
> I utterly failed, again, to clearly tell which dac was which.





> [..]





> They truly ARE that close in SE mode.


 Mike Moffat noted in one post that _instantaneous_ blind A/B testing could lead to erroneous insignificant results, whereas _long-term_ blind A/B testing (e.g. continuous 1h sessions with each individual setup) could allow to reliably identify the source. This has also been discussed in this post:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma/30#post_12041382

 Did your own testing go more along the lines of _instantaneous_ blind A/B testing, or that of _long-term_ blind A/B testing? If it's more like the former, could this explain your difficulties to tell which DAC was which?


  


> And it should also be noted that Bob had listened to “a pile of 9 pin tubes” before settling upon a 12BH7 for the Sunrise III amp because it had;
> 1. no microphonics
> 2. minimal internal electronic noise which disappeared upon completion of powerage
> 3. excellent bandwidth
> ...


 I know little and less about tube amps. Looking at the G1217 tubes listing I notice that there are a  number of 12BH7A flavors: Dumont, Phillips, Electro Harmonix, GE, TAD... Which one should we choose?

  


> 1st…
> The family resemblance between these 2 dacs is mighty strong.
> And even though there are major technical differences (dac chips used) and the change in sophistication of the support circuitry, (the power supplies and digital circuit paths that feed the actual dac chips, not to mention the analog output circuitry), are quite different between these 2 units.
> And granted the Gumby delivers both balanced and single ended (SE) outputs of which we have only evaluated it’s SE outputs thus far.
> ...


 It's interesting that you mention this, as Jason Stoddard mentioned in the Bimby announcement the importance that the design team attached to the DSP:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/8295#post_12031225
 "The burrito is the DAC."

  

 Thank you so much for all these notes which are incredibly helpful!


----------



## atomicbob

@landroni  - I can address points 2 and 3 above.
  
 2) I picked the Electro-Harmonix 12BH7. Current production for $22. There may be others worth auditioning, but this one suited me as stated above.
  
 3) the listeners could spend as much time as they wanted on either A or B. The switch made it convenient to change between. Instantaneous if desired, much longer term if desired. No need to get up and move everything around or other distractions allowing more time to concentrate on listening.


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> 2) I picked the Electro-Harmonix 12BH7. Current production for $22. There may be others worth auditioning, but this one suited me as stated above.
> 
> 
> 3) the listeners could spend as much time as they wanted on either A or B. The switch made it convenient to change between. Instantaneous if desired, much longer term if desired. No need to get up and move everything around or other distractions allowing more time to concentrate on listening.


 

 Looks like a good approach to A/B testing...
  
 As  for the Electro-Harmonix 12BH7, does it have any harmonic distortion worth mentioning?


----------



## kstuart

The main reason that I never opted for the Project Sunrise is too many options - too many tube choices, too many adjustments.  The "tube rolling" becomes infinite when you can use almost any tube and you can change other settings as well. 
  
 With the Bellari (similar circuit design), I was limited to 12AX7, and in that world, I found that 1960s tubes were simply much better than any current production.  You can find used Telefunken for around $30 (singles are cheaper than pairs) on ebay (the last time I checked).


----------



## landroni

kstuart said:


> The main reason that I never opted for the Project Sunrise is *too many options* - too many tube choices, too many adjustments.  The "tube rolling" becomes infinite when you can use almost any tube and you can change other settings as well.
> 
> 
> With the Bellari (similar circuit design), I was limited to 12AX7, and in that world, I found that 1960s tubes were simply much better than any current production.  You can find used Telefunken for around $30 (singles are cheaper than pairs) on ebay (the last time I checked).


 

 I know the feeling. I own an E12DIY, and the choice of SS opamps is simply bewildering. This is why I simply looked at the community filtered choices for optimal opamps for this device, and simply tried that:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/674808/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-version-diy-your-own-sound
  
 Didn't go wrong.


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> _*User @Stillhart has reported on a previous occasion that:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/763905/finding-a-dac-for-the-cavalli-liquid-carbon-only-four-months-to-go/1005#post_11872598 "The GMB’s SE output sounds noticeably worse (mids are very recessed) than the balanced output. This is very easily tested on the LC [Liquid Carbon]."
> 
> Have you noticed anything similar? Does this mean that Bimby is "noticeably worse" than Gumby balanced output (and by extension Yggy)?*_



We only tested the SE outputs in the second test while in the first test we used Bal to SE transformers to convert the signal to feed the SE inputs on the amp.
I noted that the SQ of the signal pathway using the transformer didn't match up to the SE output of the Gumby.
So we didn't test for the sonic differences between SE and Bal on 'equal footings', since we weren't using an amp with both Bal and SE inputs.
Thus I can't really address your question.
What we were paying attention to were the strengths of that $1500 system as the main focus and using these 2 dacs as the sources.



landroni said:


> _*Mike Moffat noted in one post that instantaneous blind A/B testing could lead to erroneous insignificant results, whereas long-term blind A/B testing (e.g. continuous 1h sessions with each individual setup) could allow to reliably identify the source. This has also been discussed in this post:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma/30#post_12041382
> Did your own testing go more along the lines of instantaneous blind A/B testing, or that of long-term blind A/B testing? If it's more like the former, could this explain your difficulties to tell which DAC was which?*_



We/I used a combination of 'quick' and longer term listening to each source, based upon what we were paying attention to.
And it's interesting that you would bring this up, because I mentioned that the only 'real' way to determine actual suitability in any system to gain a 'more complete' grasp of any 'new device', is at home, over the long haul, using a variety of different music that one is already familiar with.

This makes it long term test which we didn't have the time for.
Nor was that our primary goal in these tests.

We were testing for scaleability all the while paying close attention to dollar amounts to keep the system as affordable and as kick-ass as possible.



landroni said:


> _*It's interesting that you mention this, as Jason Stoddard mentioned in the Bimby announcement the importance that the design team attached to the DSP:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/8295#post_12031225
> 
> "The burrito is the DAC."*_



I alluded to this by saying that the hardware that is used in these 2 dacs are quite different from each other.
But the family resemblance was strikingly similar.
Thus my supposition was that the “supercomboburrito” filter is what we were hearing as the main contributor to this similarity.
Same idea, approached from 2 different angles, reaching the same conclusion.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> Looks like a good approach to A/B testing...
> 
> As  for the Electro-Harmonix 12BH7, does it have any harmonic distortion worth mentioning?


Um, I don't mean for this to be blunt nor rude or nuth'n, but…

It’s a tube, and added harmonics are what they do.
What makes one sound 'good' or 'better', 
or not,
is strictly a matter of personal choice.

And that is both the allure, fascination etc. and the frustration, since that little round hole in the chassis into which you can throw as much or as little $$$$ as you deem appropriate, can seem like a bottomless hole, if you let it.

But there are others who have 'been there - done that' already and some can help avoid the same mistakes they made… 
If you ask.
Just be careful of whom you ask. :atsmile:

Think sailboat, as in, a hole in the water, where $$$$$$ gets tossed, only to sink out of sight, about as fast as you can toss it.

Only completely different. :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## johnjen

kstuart said:


> The main reason that I never opted for the Project Sunrise is too many options - too many tube choices, too many adjustments.  The "tube rolling" becomes infinite when you can use almost any tube and you can change other settings as well.
> 
> With the Bellari (similar circuit design), I was limited to 12AX7, and in that world, I found that 1960s tubes were simply much better than any current production.  You can find used Telefunken for around $30 (singles are cheaper than pairs) on ebay (the last time I checked).


Yeah I know what you mean, especially the number and variety of tube choices is, or can be, just crazy.

But what I've learned is for a particular setup usually once a degree of 'synergy' has been reached the search for better ceases to be important.

Like the settings tend to settle down once a degree of familiarity is reached. which implies a degree of fussing is needed.
Well, unless you're like me and don't have a single bone in your body that doesn't DEMAND that it needs be tweaked still further.
In which case my sympathies, 'Been there - Done that' and by now its ingrained and I'm not sure I WANT to change it.

Oh well, I've lived with it for low these many years so far, what's a few more?
Eh?

JJ :atsmile:
ps I now run all SS, because it does simplify the sheer number of possibilities down to a more manageable number. But tubes are or can be magical, but then so can SS…


----------



## kstuart

johnjen said:


> landroni said:
> 
> 
> > _*It's interesting that you mention this, as Jason Stoddard mentioned in the Bimby announcement the importance that the design team attached to the DSP:
> ...


 
  
 That is easily tested.
  
 Bimby does not use the "supercomboburrito" filter on 24/192 material.
  
 So, if you get a top quality 24/192 file ( such as Alan Yoshida's excellent mastering of "Blue Train" ) then you can eliminate the filter as a factor and just test the multibit implementation.


----------



## bimmer100

> johnjen said:
> 
> 
> > Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
> ...


 
  
  
  
 I'm quite curious to know about this as well. I tend to agree with stillhart on many issues and we have a similar ear when it comes to gear.  I've heard the gumby a bit and the balanced mode is quite good, but didn't get a chance to try SE. Stillhart did mention the quality was lacking in a noticeable way, not just subtle.  A great amp like the liquid carbon should bring out all the details and nuances in the Schiit dac's like the yggy, gumby and bimby.  I'm most excited to get a chance to spend some time with the bimby and have it paired up with a few amps and hear it. If only I had a gumby at the same time.  At least i'll be able to compare the yggy and bimby side by side.  Either way, i'm sure the bimby sounds pretty fantastic for it's price point.  I know Stillhart is partial to his DAC19 and I understand why! I used to own one and think quite highly of it for a SE DAC... that's why I ended up selling it and upgrading to the M11.  
  
      I would love to get a cheaper DAC for work, and hoping to hear this Bimby soon! So the above reviews really intrigue me and I thank JJ, AtomicBob and Big Poppa for taking the time to make a write-up review on it. I just hope it's not so bright like most all the Schiit Dac's i've heard. I feel that they might be better at lower volumes if I was to pair it with any of my amps, but nothing short of deafening and sibilant once the volume is up to 90db or so. I think I would like to try the PSIII amp as it might be the ticket to tame the sibilance from schiit dac's. Maybe i'm just super sensitive to higher frequencies. Having a pair of HE560's likely doesn't help, but they are much better after mods. 
  
 What tube choices are ideal for the PSIII to keep treble smooth when paired with a bimby? And most importantly, not losing details. Unfortunately my experience with most tube amps leaves me unhappy as many sound very colored and overly smooth or lacking some detail.  The Zana Duex was one of the best sounding tube amps i've heard and would likely be happy with that.  But the pairing with the HE560 wasn't the best, definitely better with HD800's. I am considering getting a new pair of headphones, maybe Ether C ( I need a good closed back), HE-X or possibly HD800S (depending on price).
  
  
 Last question:
 Does anyone know of a good A/B switch that would be able to handle at least two separate 4pin XLR balanced inputs and one 4pin XLR output that would be reliable and high quality?
  
  
  
 Thanks in advance 
 -T


----------



## gefski

bimmer100 said:


> I would love to get a cheaper DAC for work, and hoping to hear this Bimby soon! So the above reviews really intrigue me and I thank JJ, AtomicBob and Big Poppa for taking the time to make a write-up review on it. I just hope it's not so bright like most all the Schiit Dac's i've heard. I feel that they might be better at lower volumes if I was to pair it with any of my amps, but nothing short of deafening and sibilant once the volume is up to 90db or so. I think I would like to try the PSIII amp as it might be the ticket to tame the sibilance from schiit dac's. Maybe i'm just super sensitive to higher frequencies. Having a pair of HE560's likely doesn't help, but they are much better after mods.




*IMO*

Can't say that I have encountered *frequency response* aberrations with quality DACS I've had on my desk, and think I've never had a "bright" dac. Once I deal with the f/r "personalities" of various cans, and to a lesser extent, amps, it's time for long dac listening sessions seeking timbre, texture, transparency, attack and damping, music in space (or perceived space).

But maybe my ears are too old.


----------



## johnjen

kstuart said:


> That is easily tested.
> 
> Bimby does not use the "supercomboburrito" filter on 24/192 material.
> 
> So, if you get a top quality 24/192 file ( such as Alan Yoshida's excellent mastering of "Blue Train" ) then you can eliminate the filter as a factor and just test the multibit implementation.


That's a really good distinction to bring up.

I think we used a 176.4 track (the Firebird Suite) and that was as high as we went.
I might be wrong on that but we didn't test for this specific condition.

So if the multibit architecture is a major contributor in and of itself, their results are all the more astonishing taking into account the VERY different hardware architecture between these 2 dacs.

Excellent!

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> That's a really good distinction to bring up.
> 
> I think we used a 176.4 track (the Firebird Suite) and that was as high as we went.
> I might be wrong on that but we didn't test for this specific condition.
> ...


 

 For info, here's what the Bifrost FAQ has to say:
 http://schiit.com/products/bifrost
 "How the heck can you do Bifrost Multibit so affordable? Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil cost a lot more!
 Because it’s a much simpler DAC than either of them, using less parts, a more basic power supply, a single dual-channel DAC, and a 4X digital filter, rather than an 8X digital filter. However, it still offers amazing value, from its advanced bitperfect clock management system to USB Gen 2 input to upgradable, modular design.
  
 What’s this about a non-oversampling (NOS) mode?
 For 176.4kHz and 192kHz input sample rates, Bifrost Multibit passes the music right along—no digital filter, no oversampling. Have fun! Upsample lower-rate music with another algorithm, and compare to our “comboburrito” filter."
  
 It looks like the burrito uses 4X oversampling in BMB, and 8X in GMB and Yggy. And no oversampling in both 176.4kHz and 192kHz in BMB.


----------



## johnjen

So while I work on the next few topics in the 'Better' series, I figured some might be interested in the tube tester I am repairing.

You may have heard of the Transcendent Audio Tube analyzer.
It is a rather interesting device that measures Gm (Transconductance), Mu (Amplification Factor) Ip (Plate Current) and from which Plate Resistance and Plate Dissipation can be calculated.

Between these measurements and characteristics, any tube can be described and even characteristic performance plots can be created.

And I don't even own any tube gear! :atsmile:

But I figure there might be those who live in the seattle area who would like their tubes tested and matched pairs checked etc.

But first I gotta find out why this unit won't analyze 12 volt and power tubes.
I've got a schematic and everything… :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## atomicbob

Any progress on the tube tester?


----------



## duncan1

Johngen it wont analyze  12 V tubes as it has only a 6.3 V supply. small double triodes that are dual heater/filament working are wired in parallel.


----------



## johnjen

atomicbob said:


> Any progress on the tube tester?


I fussed with it last night and will test the results tonight.




duncan1 said:


> Johngen it wont analyze 12 V tubes as it has only a 6.3 V supply. small double triodes that are dual heater/filament working are wired in parallel.


Um, the dual triodes do have dual filaments which are wired in parallel using their center tap on this tube analyzer.
To use a 12 volt filament supply the dual filaments would be connected in series.

JJ


----------



## ericr

johnjen said:


> So while I work on the next few topics in the 'Better' series, I figured some might be interested in the tube tester I am repairing.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




[Waving hand] Pick me, pick me!

There are a fair number of tubes I would appreciate having tested. Some 6SN7s as well as various 9-pin tubes - both 6 & 12 Volt (so I hope you're able to work that out).

-Eric


----------



## duncan1

Johnjen I am very well aware of the series/parallel connections I have an AVO MK4  which I have used for decades before that a Taylor 45C I am referring to the  tube tester you are working on . If you dont believe me then check it out on the net.


----------



## johnjen

Ah I see…

It does work on 6DJ8's and 6GC7's etc, but not 6550's which are also 6 volt filament tubes as well.

Thanks for the info I'll look into it.

So thus far the only problems I can find deal with it's inability to handle any thing other than 6.3/12.6 volt based tubes (except for 300B and 2A3 tubes)
Nothing I can find says it can't handle 12.6 tubes.

Do you have specific links I can read?

JJ


----------



## johnjen

ericr said:


> [Waving hand] Pick me, pick me!
> 
> There are a fair number of tubes I would appreciate having tested. Some 6SN7s as well as various 9-pin tubes - both 6 & 12 Volt (so I hope you're able to work that out).
> 
> -Eric


Thus far 9 pin miniture dual triodes of the 6 volt variety are all that thus tester provides result on.
6DJ8's 6CG7's work just fine.

As for 6SN7's etc. I haven't tried any of those yet to know if the analyzer returns results or not.

I'm still work'n it, but it is a conundrum of sorts.

We can figure out the details for testing your tubes in 3 weeks, at the next meet.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 4 The MASTER Control - DRC*


So now we are heading into a little different territory.
Mostly to introduce a few terms and show how they are related to each other.

And I’m going to change the order of the topics just a bit.
And instead of posting all of these at once, I’m going to post them one at a time, even though there will be some overlap.
It will be a much easier read this way.

1st up is a look see at DRC (Dynamic Range Control), then another post dealing with tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor), followed by another post examining Acoustic POWER vs Volume, then Jitter gets its turn.

The first 2 concepts of DRC (Dynamic Range Control) & tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor) both tie into the related concept of Acoustic POWER vs Volume.

So first off…

*Dynamic Range Control*
AKA The MOAR Knob
Or, can I crank it up moar, 4 me…?

I have come to think of the volume control as more like a Dynamic Range Control.
When the DRC goes up, all the low level detail comes up and out, accordingly.
IOW there is more there, there. 
More to hear in terms of the added harmonically related audible cues or over/undertones that ‘belong’ to their parent ‘voice’ (source of sound). 
It is these small signal dynamics which are related, as associated harmonically rich information, that allows me to hear into the music as well as be able to all the more easily, focus on any and all of the different 'voices'. 

More there, there.

_Side Step of Note…
When I use the term ‘voices’, I mean any individual source of sound, be it a human voice (organic) or a musical instrument of any type. 
Each has its own unique sonic signature with a unique set of harmonics based upon and determined by the range of primary frequencies it can generate.
‘Voices’, when presented either alone or en mass, of what ever type, are carefully crafted by the musician to creatively represent the tonal representation of their creative intent.
They can range from being extremely rich in complexity to startlingly simple and everywhere in between.

And one of the purposes of using all of these tools is to be able to easily focus upon any one or any aggregate of these ‘voices’ and hear it in its entirety.
This is a tall order!

This definition will apply to the entire ‘Better’ series.
And now back to our discourse, which is already in progress!_

Another perspective or way to say this is, when the system is well tweaked, the volume control doesn't make the music louder, it does however present more of the music to hear.
So when the DRC is raised and lowered and it is never 'loud', I ‘know’ that the overall system distortion is very low. 

And let me clarify my use of “loud(er)” so the distinction is more pronounced.
When we listen, what our sense of hearing often perceives as louder, is more distortion, a greater deviation away from the 'natural' sound of any ‘voice’. When these added/induced distortion byproducts start to rise faster than the volume level, we hear that, and interpret it as being loud(er).
And if these distortion byproducts (which ARE harmonically related added ‘information’) were reduced, at the same playback volume level (dB), we would also tend to perceive that the volume had been reduced (if such a thing were possible).
So if this type of distortion were lowered, at any specific playback level, this would 'allow' us to raise the volume level to a greater (dB) amount for a given perceived loudness level. 
IOW as these added distortion byproducts are further reduced this enables our ability to listen, comfortably, at a greater volume (dB).

This effectively raises the low level signals up and out of the background and into a more perceptible range of hearing. 
This is why I refer to it as a Dynamic Range Control.

For example, if say certain related over and undertones (harmonics) which were created by a particular instrument were oh, ≈ -45dB lower than their primary 'source’ frequencies, and we were playing the source at say 80dB, then these related harmonics are playing at ≈ 35dB, which is close to being buried in the ‘noise’ floor and is at such a low level, as to be difficult to clearly and distinctly hear.
Now raise the DRC (volume control) up to 95dB and those same harmonics are now playing at ≈50dB. In effect we have raised all that low level music above the ‘noise’ floor so that we can hear it much more distinctly.
This is what I mean when I say there is more to hear.

One of my favorite albums is by Gustavo Dudamel entitled Discoveries. I don't remember which track it is (the whole album is amazing) but the final note is one of those big huge drums being hit, hard, along with the rest of the crescendo from the orchestra.
The entire acoustic space gets energized and lights up, and as this boom drops off in intensity AND as it recedes away into the rest of the room, the very character of the boom morphs as the acoustics of the room adds it character to the initial boom. This is where a wider or increased dynamic range can present impressive results.

And let me be clear here.
I am NOT suggesting that anyone NEEDS to listen at elevated SPL’s all the time, but as a test procedure to determine if these low level details are improved, or not, this test can be quite useful.

So when I crank up the MOAR Knob, what I’m really doing is bringing up the low level details into the acoustic presentation so they can more fully contribute to my experience of the music, which means there is moar there, there.

Another way of looking at this is…
As the signal that is converted to acoustic power becomes more cohesive, coherent, and better coupled, the power of the generated acoustical 'wave' is more 'efficient' because less power is 'wasted' or smeared thru time. This smearing means the wave form is slightly out of time and focus, with respect to its original 'parent' source.  So this more precise wave front can deliver more power all because the signal can convert the inherent power in the wave form, more effectively/efficiently into acoustic power.

I notice this as being directly related to the Listener Fatigue Factor, and the ability to crank up the MoarKnob even higher, before discomfort kicks in, as the indication, that tLFF has been improved.
And to determine where Listener Fatigue does start to kick in, to help determine if it has it been improved, will be covered more in depth in the next topic of tLFF.

I have been tracking this as my own MoarKnob ‘behavior’ shifts and changes, and there is a strong correlation to improvements and tweaks I make.

For instance when I soldered the ground return leads (instead of just wire nutting them) at the j-box just upstream from my gear, this essentially 'tightened' or made more 'rigid' the ground connection to the dac and amp. 
This was followed up by soldering the hot and neutral wires in that same box as well.
These tweaks provided beneficial improvements in multiple ways such as being able to use Moar of the DRC because of improvements in tLFF.


JJ

*End Part 4 
Next up is tLFF*


----------



## atomicbob

One thing to note is that the low level detail may be masked by the location ambient environment. Reduction in the ambient can also reveal more detail, provided the residual noise of the system is capable. My ambient regularly achieves 30 dBC, 25 dBA. Details at 35 dB SPL are readily apparent. Headphone diaphragms move shorter distances at lower drive levels and thus achieve much lower distortion. Part of my strategy to achieve great transparency as well as preserve my hearing during long sessions.


----------



## johnjen

Indeed, a lowered ambient 'noise floor' is always a desirable thing.
Some are 'blessed' with such a quiet environment, while others not so much.
I wish I could claim such a low noise floor but alas when the refrigerator and furnace are both off I can only attain ≈ 38dBA using the 'slow' response while the computer is running…:atsmile:

But another aspect I didn't mention which also influences this, is the ear's 'non-linear' FR to the difference in spl level of the music itself.
The Fletcher Munson curves will also influence the perceptibility of low level sounds, especially in the very low end of the FR spectrum, mostly in the choice of musical material used to 'test' for where the DRC has reached a 'limit'.

This can be utilized as an aid in helping to differentiate where the level of sound becomes 'harsh' or unpleasant, as the spl level rises.

And this is where the *tLFF* comes into the picture…

JJ


----------



## BIG POPPA

The comparison was blind on RCA's only and not Balanced. I know the Gumby would have wiped the floor with with the Bimby in that mode. For A/B switch look at Mapletree Audio Design. They do make a passive one and I did own a Mapletree A/B switch at one time but never really used it.


bimmer100 said:


> > johnjen said:
> >
> >
> > > Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
> ...


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> Indeed, a lowered ambient 'noise floor' is always a desirable thing.
> 
> Some are 'blessed' with such a quiet environment, while others not so much.
> 
> ...



 

It is hard to get the ambient down so low. I've had to work at it. Not possible for many, depending on location.

The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.


----------



## johnjen

atomicbob said:


> It is hard to get the ambient down so low. I've had to work at it. Not possible for many, depending on location.
> 
> The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.



"ISO Contours of Equal Loudness" 
&
"Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle"

Looks like more research ahead! :thumb

JJ :atsmile:


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.


 

 Could you expand a bit more on the critical bands and the masking principle? Is this related to what Metrum identifies as the human ear behaving like a "band-pass filter"?
  
 http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/HexEN.html
 http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/Design%20Philosophy%20Metrum%20Acoustics.pdf
_"Pictured above is a part of our ears. It concerns the cochlea with is located in the inner ear. Every spot in the
 cochlea is sensitive to a certain specific frequency. The highest frequencies are registered at the front whil
 the lowest are registered at the end of the cochlea. The basilar membrame, which is part of the cochlea,
 functions as a base for 15 to 20 thousand hair cells. Each of these hair cells are connected to a nerve which
 is connected to the brain. This is only a (very) short summary of the working of the ear because in truth, the
 ear is infinitely more complex. We however will limit ourself to the sensory cells (hair cells) that each have
 describe a limited range of frequencies in such a way that they all overlap. The sum of all of these determines
 the range of our hearing, which on average is between 20 Hz and 20.000 Hz. With 20.000 hair cells their
 bandwith is very small and thus very selective. This means that for one specific hair cell, excepticing the
 specific frequency that it is tuned to, a signal gets filtered out at 40 dB per octave. This means that our
 hearing on this level behaves much like a band-pass filter, comparable to the filters found in CD-players.
 Implementing filters of this level in a CD-player can thus be described as overkill."_
  
_[...]_
_"Because the basilair membrane behaves as a sharp filter for our hearing, it has become, in a certain way,
 part of the DAC. The measurements on a NOS DAC are therefore not measured at its logical end-point, but
 before the filter (our hearing). Herein lies the problem, which exists when comparing the actual time domain
 results and the way in which the Jtest interprets and shows results."_


----------



## atomicbob

@landroni - that isn't a bad start. Read this and check the references, especially those by Zwicker:
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bark_scale


----------



## derbigpr

An interesting presentation from one of the leading audio analyzing experts on why sound and measurements are not always going hand in hand with each other. Most of us are aware that a few basic specs can't show us how a DAC sounds for example, but as you know some people will tell you that a 60-70 dollar DAC can be end-game because of the flat frequency response and low enough THD figures, and nothing could possibly sound better, all you hear from your expensive DAC is placebo. 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V6YN-mshmY


----------



## landroni

derbigpr said:


> An interesting presentation from one of the leading audio analyzing experts on why sound and measurements are not always going hand in hand with each other. Most of us are aware that a few basic specs can't show us how a DAC sounds for example, but as you know some people will tell you that a 60-70 dollar DAC can be end-game because of the flat frequency response and low enough THD figures, and nothing could possibly sound better, all you hear from your expensive DAC is placebo.


 
  
 Yes, "objectivists" seem particularly fond of spreading this. Only recently in this DS vs R2R thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/15#post_12039982
_"[...] IME the filtered models tend to sound even closer to DS (and I suspect a large part of that is both good R2R and good DS are targeting the same thing: flat, full-range frequency response with as low distortion as possible; if you want to get into non-flat response then yes we can get into "big huge differences" quite easily)."_
  
  
 They seem to insist that just about any difference perceived individually is (necessarily) placebo since it cannot be confirmed in instantaneous blind AB testing... Mike Moffat has some interesting ideas for blind A/B instantaneous naysayers to test:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/195#post_12088877


> Originally Posted by *Baldr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> [...]
> ...


----------



## derbigpr

landroni said:


> Yes, "objectivists" seem particularly fond of spreading this. Only recently in this DS vs R2R thread:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/15#post_12039982
> _"[...] IME the filtered models tend to sound even closer to DS (and I suspect a large part of that is both good R2R and good DS are targeting the same thing: flat, full-range frequency response with as low distortion as possible; if you want to get into non-flat response then yes we can get into "big huge differences" quite easily)."_
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The main fault of their argument is that they believe that the sound, the whole of the sound they hear coming out of a component, can be represented by 3 or 4 very basic measurements, most of which can be very easily misinterpreted as well.


----------



## johnjen

My 2¢.
Until you actually hear a difference due to cables or any such experiment, the experience that makes it real, is missing.
This is when the logical mind assumes it knows what is what, just to maintain its sense of correctness. 
And it can all too easily 'explain' away the why's and wherefores, at least to their (and those who agree with them) satisfaction, for both themselves and for others who 'challenge' their opinions.
And it is their opinion that they are expressing, nothing more, because they haven't experimented (subjected their opinion to verification) with sufficient thoroughness.

But once they do hear differences, then the challenge is to come to grips with it.
This can be difficult at times due to their past history of denying there IS any difference, and then suddenly their experience tells them their opinion was incorrect.

Some are more 'flexible' in dealing with change, than others.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Lately I've been tweaking my EQ and now my 800's, again.

The results are still being evaluated.

BUT I can say that the single most impressive mod thus far, in a long time, was finally getting an EQ that worked.

By now most have seen me yammer on about the sonarworks EQ.

Yeah, it's still a must have mod.
But I took their 'standard' average compensation curve and asked them to 'uncork' it a bit for my 800's.

Um, I wasn't expecting the magnitude of just this one little tweak.
It, um, er, kinda acts like superglue.
As in my headphones are now firmly stuck on my head.

The seemlessness of the integration of the extreme bottom end, say from 35Hz and on down to below 15Hz is simply stunning.

But wait there's more…

I recently sent my headphones to get them measured, for the first time, ever.

I was so looking forward to the results and they didn't disappoint.
Well in one way I suppose I could look at the graphs and numbers and go wholey Wyrd Schiit!

But after analyzing the results I embarked upon a series of trial experiments.

And wholey Wyrd Schiit again, only this time exceeding the previous performance, at least in a few area's thus far.
I need to listen more and let me and it 'acclimate' a bit more.

For the first time, ever, (this stretches back decades) I have a EQ that not only improves the overall tonal balance but also brings out subtle intonations and nuances, again, like hearing your music anew, again.

The thing is I went the exact opposite way from using lots of dampening, or even some.
Instead I have just a little bit on the 'trapazoid', and that's it.
Well except for using some vibration absorber material to stabilize the mounting of the driver.

I'm looking at vibration control as a primary means of dealing with the 800's 'idiosyncrasies'. 

This far I'm liking what the changes are.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 5 Listener Fatigue ugh…*

Ok so this is a long one, so grab a favorite frosty refreshment, settle into a favorite chair and follow along,
Or not :atsmile:


*tLFF - - the Listener Fatigue Factor*
I stumbled over tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor) again as I was tracking changes, over time, of the SQ of my system as it ‘aged’, while performing ‘experiments’. I noticed that sometimes I could crank up the DRC way more than other times before a degree of listener discomfort kicked in. So I started to track this ‘variability’ in my daily log.
And what I started to notice were patterns that as tLFF was reduced, I could crank up the DRC more than when the tLFF was ‘high’.

IOW, right from the start as *tLFF* got better the *DRC* could be increased as well, and vice versa.
And it should be noted that Listener Fatigue is a common enough experience, but is not well understood nor defined, at least as far as I can find.
IOW we know it when we hear it but don’t have the ‘what it is’, well enough in hand.

But what I came to realize was the reason the *DRC* could go up as the *tLFF* was reduced was because the acoustic energy was more closely coupled/bound to it’s parent/‘source’ ‘voice’, which is what happened as tweaks and such were made. 
These changes produced a closer coupling of all the acoustic energy that an instrument makes such that it was more precisely timed and presented to my ears. 
I heard this as the actual acoustic musical signal being more faithful to the original. 
Not in terms of the FR spectrum but rather in the dynamic energy of the ‘voices’ that are presented to me.

An example.
Stick your head near a piano or drum set or other percussive instrument while it is being ‘vigorously’ played. What you will experience is the ‘power’ of the impacts, the percussive effects, the energy that is being created and ‘imparted’ into the acoustic environment.
This creation and release of power, is based upon the excitation of ‘tuned’ resonant components that further create sub and supra harmonics which are all ‘created’ as a direct consequence of the initial energetic injection by the musician. Namely when the stick hits the cymbal or drum, the hammer hits the string, etc. This ‘starting point’ for that note and especially the subsequent harmonics that are created are what we use to identify not just what the instrument is but which note is being played, how ‘loud’ it is, what the acoustic environment is, how near or far away in 3d space, etc. 

We can identify these things because we have previous experience, we ‘learned’, what the acoustic ‘signature’ for a particular instrument sounds like. And as this acoustic signature is changed, by whatever means, there is a deviation from original acoustic power signature.
IOW we can tell a tack piano from a grand, from a standup etc. and we can tell when it is close miked or from a greater distance away because the resultant sub and supra harmonics change accordingly.

All of these subsequent harmonics are created and released into the acoustic environment in their proper time, because they are a function of the creation by that initial energetic impulse and are ‘time aligned’ to that source.
IOW they are bound to it, because they are created by it.

When these subtle time alignments are skewed or delayed or stretched out thru time, the original acoustic energy is now ‘smeared’ and no longer properly adds it’s acoustic energy to that of it’s parent. 
IOW the acoustic energy we hear being presented to our ears is out of synch from it’s original creation.

This ‘smearing’ or spreading out the acoustic energy tends to ‘fill in’ where there should be a lessor amount of energy or where that energy simply didn’t originally exist in the dynamic creation of the original signal.
This makes the original source sound out of focus, as in, the subtle cues and harmonics are ‘Fat’ or spread out.

THIS is my vote for Listener Fatigue

Where the acoustic energy is not presented ‘properly’, either by having signal ‘added’ or by the signal being ‘out of synch’, because either; 
this energy is not presented with the full and precise original energetic acoustic signature,
and/or more acoustic ‘artifacts’ have been added due to other sources of distortion. 
In either case these changes can create Listener Fatigue.

And these changes/additions can come from 2 basic ‘sources’.
The first being the playback equipment adding ‘distortion’ of some sort, of which many are well known (IM, THD, FR etc.).
The second being a specific subset of the first, that being, that the original acoustic energy is being presented (heard) out of synch from its original source.

All due to changes to the re-created signal that are noticed, one way or another.
Even if the original recorded signal is distorted to begin with.
IOW Listener Fatigue is due to ‘misplaced’ acoustic energy.

From what I've gleaned thus far, when the re-created source signal is 'properly' timed, and passed along to the HP's intact, the resulting acoustical presentation creates more 'powerful' sound pressure, in its proper time with respect to its actual acoustic source.
This added 'power' means that the impacts of percussion instruments, and the ability to hear sub-harmonics is enhanced. 
It also has other really kewl beneficial results for most other 'voices', like an increase in the perceived instantaneous dynamic range of each 'voice'.  
IOW the smack and punch and impact and leading edge all have greater power behind them, for all ‘voices’.

Oh yes and let me add, this isn’t just about digital music playback. If *tLFF* truly is all about the music being out of synch with itself, think about what happens when the diamond tip ‘reading’ the groove walls isn’t aligned ‘properly’… 
The 2 channels of information become ‘time smeared’ if the VTA and azimuth aren’t adjusted ‘properly’. The use of *tLFF* as a tool also applies to analog signal sources, especially vinyl, when the diamond tip isn't precisely reading the groove.
Think screech and Listener Fatigue gone berserk, especially on poorly recorded vinyl, in fact this is where I first stumbled upon this rather helpful diagnostic 'tool' many years ago.

This also applies to digital which is why I think we are seeing all these femto second clocks, power supplies with umpteen sections of regulation etc., just to help get the timing and amplitude as accurate as possible during the analog signal re-creation.  
And power amps (strictly an analog device) can seem to play a big role in contributing to tLFF as well.

And there appear to be 2 general sources of these contributions to *tLFF*.
The first source is during the re-creation of the analog signal, and the second contribution is during the ‘delivery’ of this signal.

So, first off, all DAC’s use mathematics to re-create the original musical signal, likewise a diamond tip ‘reads’ the groove wall, or the tape head ‘reads’ the magnetic flux modulation, etc. These re-creation methods and related devices are all performing a change of state from one medium to another (usually into an analog electrical signal). And these energetic translations/changes of state from digital, or mechanical, or magnetic, to electrical along with their compliment, the electrical to acoustic energy translations, are always the most critical in terms of ‘getting it right’ (accuracy, precision, resolution, etc.).
And during playback this initial change of state is the very basis for the signal to start with, and if it isn’t ‘properly’ dealt with, no amount of corrective action will ever ‘fix’ the signal. Well, other than substituting with ‘better’ devices and/or processes.

Secondly, faithfully delivering that signal and then completing this energetic change of state into acoustic pressure contributes it’s own variety of LF issues. This secondary contributor to *tLFF* is something we can actually deal with on a less than wholesale replacement of major components (amps, dacs, cartridge etc.) basis.
Indeed this is where most of my tweaking has yielded the most bang for the buck. And which also significantly affects new major components as we ‘upgrade’ our systems as well.
IOW as the entire system is improved, new gear will perform ‘Better’, or at least it is not being limited as much by previous ‘choke points’.
And a significant portion of these improvements are gained from the amp and its ability to ‘properly’ couple with the driver. 

And what I have come to know is that as we lessen these ‘errors’ while generating acoustic pressure, and/or allow more of the original signal to come thru, *tLFF* is reduced and the SQ takes a mother may I step up as more and more of the available acoustic energy is aligned and then ‘properly’ presented/heard during playback.

The list of influences or tweaks I’ve experimented with, that contribute to the improvement of tLFF are, for some, hard to believe, and/or for others seem to be outright dubious.
However they either proved to be ‘Better’ or not, based upon the criteria as set out in this series of posts.

And to make things even more ‘complicated’ there does seem to be a threshold that needs to be crossed before these changes become evident to the point of undenyability. 
IOW if the system is ‘clogged’ with ‘choke points’, unless you ameliorate a major clog there is a good chance you may not hear any change, mostly due to masking/smearing of acoustical energy where it doesn’t belong. This is a common observation made by many who try only one ‘upgrade’ like a power cable or interconnect cable, and hear no differences. Of course there is the distinct possibility that the attempted ‘upgrade’ simply wasn’t up to the task. (it wasn’t a sufficiently better cable etc.)
But once one of these ‘choke points’ is found and improved it will be VERY obvious when this happens, and it will be very hard to deny that not only was there a change but it was ‘Better’.

Another Side Note on the Side…
‘Choke Points’, *CP's* do you need one hand or two?
So what ARE ‘choke points’ you ask?

I’ve been using the term ‘choke points’ but haven’t explained what I mean, until now.
This term refers to any portion of a system that limits the conversion from electrical power, to signal, to acoustic power in an audible way. I have ‘discovered’ several of these limiting aspects in my system to date, but only by negation. 
By that I mean as they were removed the overall SQ makes a sudden and obvious improvement. One that is undeniable (well over the ≈10% threshold) and is so gratifying that there is no doubt as to its being “*Better*”.

Such things as fuses, lowering the resistance of cable connections, ie, when I soldered the romex hot, neutral, and ground junctions only 15’ upstream from where my system is plugged in. And when I added an early mod to my 800’s (anax mod), it was as if I was hearing my music anew, again.

But once this threshold is reached it can initiate a cascade effect where EVERYTHING can start to make a difference. However initially this can lead to further confusion and frustration once a change IS noticed, because now determining if it is really an improvement, or just a change, becomes the deciding factor instead of just IS there any change.
This is at least in part, why this series of articles is being presented. To help with knowing if a change truly is “*Better*”.

And *tLFF* has, at least for me, become a most useful tool in terms of determining if changes made are actually beneficial improvements or are just changes. There are of course other tools mentioned in this ‘Better’ series that also can help and the combination of these tools allows me to more quickly determine what is a desirable change, and if an actual removal of ‘choke points’ *CP's* occurred, which did lessen the *tLFF*’s influence.
Or not.

This is a decided double edged sword in that as the choke points and other system deviations are removed, the more those that remain seem to loom large(r), which for some can be quite frustrating. 
On the other hand once a degree of resolution is reached and the SQ is refined ‘enough’, the SQ has stepped up and away from what we have experienced in the past, so now we are experiencing previously unexplored edges of the acoustic envelope. 
Which means we are now navigating in somewhat unfamiliar acoustic territory.

But it also means as fewer and fewer ‘choke points’ remain, the overall SQ continues improve.
As such, we are discovering new/additional nuances and subtle details of the presentation of the music, as we continue to hear it all anew, as the veils and unwanted ‘artifacts’ are removed. 

This of course could be the DIY’rs curse — forever removing artifacts… think Sisyphus 


*Listener fatigue as a tool*
_Like tea, you will know it’s good if you automatically reach for more when offered._

So if the desire strikes you while listening, to just turn it off, or down, or go do something else, or you are easily distracted away from listening, then consider that the Listener Fatigue Factor, (tLFF) is ‘high’, at least high enough that it distracts you away from ‘getting into the music’.

A correlate to this is, as we are able to listen to increasing playback levels (as the *DRC* goes up) before *tLFF* ‘distracts’ us, this would be considered an improvement, a ‘keeper’.
This is yet another test we can use as a tool to help determine if the changes we make really are improvements, or just changes.
In fact a striking example of this was when I first modded my 800’s with an early anax mod…

Which translates into, IF we can crank up the *DRC* and NOT hear any acoustical information that is strident or distracting at the same or higher playback level as in previous listening sessions, THEN we can use this to help determine if the latest modifications/experiments were able to increase the playback level, before onset of obvious tLFF.

Another way of perceiving this is to view it as an exploration into scaleability and how well the components scale upwards together. I have learned that, again,as the ‘choke points’ are ‘removed’ or diminished in severity, the task now becomes how to determine if the resultant changes really are ‘better’, or not. And when there is an obvious improvement, as in ‘OH MY DOG’, or ‘I’m hearing my music as if it were the first time’ etc. this provides solid evidence, at least to me, of a marked improvement in the overall resolution and that the system has ‘gotten out of its own way’ all the more.
IOW, scaleability just took a significant step up, and EVERYTHING sounds better.


And from the, is the glass half full/empty perspective…
If the music does not, or can not, engage you, as in pull you into itself and hold your attention, then *tLFF* may be a causative or an additional factor, one that can be ‘tested’ for and certainly monitored as changes are made to figure if said changes truly are a keeper, or not.

This also relates to the idea of increases in the *DRC*, where, as the volume goes up (assuming that the ‘sound doesn’t get loud’ factor is in place), does the sound become more involving, more compelling, with more toe tapping time?

All of these ‘measures’ of ‘musical satisfaction’ can be quite useful tools to help determine if recent changes truly are ‘keepers’.


And after getting just a taste of Jggy just recently, it just reaffirms my take on this.
The ability of the entire system, and for each ‘voice’, to present and delineate those ultra fine details and remain in focus to itself, is also related to the Listener Fatigue Factor.


JJ

*End Part 5 
Next up
Feel the POWER*


----------



## DougD

atomicbob said:


> I first heard a Garage1217 Project Ember at a head-fi meet at BottleHead headquarters on Bainbridge Island awhile back. I was intrigued by this open frame hybrid amp. Then I picked up the Bravo V2 as it was a cheap (really cheap) open frame amp. It didn't sound bad, but it didn't sound all that good either. Then I noticed that G1217 also made a hybrid with a circuit topology similar to the Bravo (but the PS-III is designed correctly.) I took a chance and acquired one. The topology has a tube providing what it does best, voltage gain, and the output of the tube plate goes directly to the gate of a mosfet running class A, doing what it does best, current gain.
> 
> Am I glad now I took this chance. Subbing a Linear Power Supply for the SMPS, pairing with a Mousai MSD192 and HD650 and before i new it I had a rocking budget system. Recently we put the Schiit Bifrost MB in place of the MSD192. The evolved budget system busts preconceived notions that you have to spend enormous amounts of money to achieve auditory delight. Now I have other systems that can delivery higher resolution or greater (name your favorite parameter here), but they require a lot more investment. Sure the Liquid Crimson or ZDSE rocks. At 10x the price of the PS-III. And I do appreciate the Liquid Crimson and ZDSE for the extra performance that they deliver. Not everyone can justify such investment. So the goal is how far up the Receiver Operating Curve of price performance can we put a budget system. This one will be hard to beat.


 
  
 I just ordered Schiit Bimby and a Garage1217 Sunrise III. And then belatedly today thought about perhaps improving the Sunrise's power supply. Not an area I know anything about, and I am not finding many 24v linear power supplies. 
  
 Any recommendations ?
  
 TIA


----------



## johnjen

Here is a place to start…

http://stores.ebay.com/along1986090/Finished-linear-Power-supply-/_i.html?_fsub=12070925010&rmvSB=true

JJ


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## atomicbob

dougd said:


> I just ordered Schiit Bimby and a Garage1217 Sunrise III. And then belatedly today thought about perhaps improving the Sunrise's power supply. Not an area I know anything about, and I am not finding many 24v linear power supplies.
> 
> Any recommendations ?
> 
> TIA


 
 Look for a Talema 24V Linear Power Supply on ebay:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/TALEMA-25W-24V-Linear-Power-supply-115V-or-230V-to-DC24V-L156-6-/141718315599


----------



## DougD

atomicbob said:


> Look for a Talema 24V Linear Power Supply on ebay:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TALEMA-25W-24V-Linear-Power-supply-115V-or-230V-to-DC24V-L156-6-/141718315599


 
  
 Thanks, Mr Atomic. I belatedly realized the Talema had been listed in post #42 that detailed what gear you all had been using.
  
 Much appreciated. The Project Sunrise III is on-hand and I like it, the Bimby arrives tomorrow.


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> *tLFF - - the Listener Fatigue Factor*
> 
> *Listener fatigue as a tool*
> 
> The ability of the entire system, and for each ‘voice’, to present and delineate those ultra fine details and remain in focus to itself, is also related to the Listener Fatigue Factor.


 
 Nice presentation jj. I would like to offer some alternative thoughts. The human brain in conjunction with the Human Auditory System (HAS) is remarkable in ability to fill-in missing or distorted information. All those on-line sentence challenges where the vowels are missing is the visual equivalent. So when auditory information is distorted from the original, our brains work hard to reconstruct what should have been heard to maintain the audible illusion. This may be one reason for DAC-deafness claimed by many. This ability comes with a liability; it is exercising the brain such that the brain becomes fatigued. The long term test is that one doesn't feel as tired listening to reproductions from one source over another. Less reconstruction of what should have been perceived by the brain. Realism is easier to perceive without as much brain corrective activity.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
Isn't it amazing how we can adapt to such a wide range of circumstances dynamically, as they occur.

And I can see where 'over thinking' (filling in the 'missing' content) can tax ones ability to concentrate and focus after a while.
Thus the distraction/not get sucked into the music aspect, could complicate our ability to easily listen as a result.

The distraction quotient was an indicator when it occurred to me, as my mind started to wander, which was an odd happenstance, for me anyway.
Then when I tied it into the *tLFF* it started to make more sense.
Then as the *DRC* variability got into the picture it started to make even more sense.

And another aspect I didn't bring up in the post was the perception that as the *tLFF* was reduced the 'loudness' was reduced as well.
This along with the ability to crank the *DRC* up to the same perceived volume could be perceived as, as *tLFF* was improved the 'effective volume' was reduced, which meant that the *DRC* could be increased to reach the 'same' volume.

Which is kinda odd if you think about it…
IOW as the SQ is improved, the perception that the spl has been reduced, given the same setting of the *DRC*.
This was another 'clue' that led me to the insight about the resonant harmonics becoming more tightly coupled to their 'parent' '*voice*'. 

Thanks for your info, it gives me yet more food for thought… :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> Nice presentation jj. I would like to offer some alternative thoughts. The human brain in conjunction with the Human Auditory System (HAS) is remarkable in ability to fill-in missing or distorted information. All those on-line sentence challenges where the vowels are missing is the visual equivalent. So when auditory information is distorted from the original, our brains work hard to reconstruct what should have been heard to maintain the audible illusion. This may be one reason for DAC-deafness claimed by many. This ability comes with a liability; it is exercising the brain such that the brain becomes fatigued. The long term test is that one doesn't feel as tired listening to reproductions from one source over another. Less reconstruction of what should have been perceived by the brain. Realism is easier to perceive without as much brain corrective activity.


 

 Many people do not appreciate just how much brain processing goes into something as mundane as speech recognition. Let alone analysing and appreciating art in the form of complex harmonics.
  
 I've been fortunate enough to grow up in a bilingual environment, meaning that by now I'm fluent in four languages, and I have a relative knack for tackling other languages as a hobby when visiting other countries. One thing that I've realized is that when listening to a completely new language (one with which you're not particularly familiar), all the sounds come in as a sustained mumbling. Everything is muddied, smeared, and your brain can't make any sense of it all. It's just a very high noise level. (For those of the English conviction, try one time to listen to someone speaking Mandarin, or Brazilian next to you.) But the more you get exposed to the language, and make a conscious effort to make out the sounds, the more the brain adapts itself to distinguish the sounds and all of a sudden the muddle disappears, replaced by a clear recognition of different sounds and tones. I still can't understand any Chinese (no more than 5 words, anyways), but when someone talks next to me I can clearly make out words, intonations, phrases. I can't put any sense to the sounds, but my brain can to a degree make out the sounds themselves. (This says nothing about my ability to repeat those sounds, which is in many ways inexistent.)
  
 One aspect that many of those who speak a language in addition to their native tongue have experienced is... the switch. The famous switch when all of a sudden someone pops right in front of you and starts speaking mumble-jumble. Once the shock subsides, the brain catches up and shortly you understand that the weirdo in front of you is actually speaking some sense in a language that you might actually know. It's not like you haven't heard the sounds --- everything was right in front of you. And it isn't like you don't understand the sounds --- you know the language. But the brain hasn't yet warmed up and done its processing magic, filling in the blanks. The same effect happens when you get parachuted into a foreign country whose language you master solely on an approximate level --- for several months the brain is playing catch up, rewiring synapses (i.e. writing new code paths) and fine-tuning the processing mechanisms. After half a year or so your brain may already become perfectly attuned to the indigenous language, so it's easy to forget just how hard it was to hear people speak and understand their speech in the first place.
  
 This is with real sounds, coming from a natural source, directly to our ears. Now imagine when the same sounds come from a less than perfect DAC, with missing codes, quantization and timing errors, oscillations...
  
 If we get back to DAC testing, I would argue that side-by-side switching of DACs is --- as far as the brain going into overdrive is concerned --- not unlike switching languages mid-sentence. The brain must detect the change and quickly adapt and switch to using a different processing "software". It once happened to me to need to switch between four different languages in different social contexts within some 5 minutes. While to my surprise it went OK-ish, I suspect there were some fumes at the back of my head. I've seen first-hand (and felt it too) how difficult it is to switch just to a 2nd language, so doing switcheroos with DACs within very short periods of time can't possibly be a good idea if the goal is to appreciate the quality of artistic rendering of sounds. Doing so repeatedly will likely make your brain enter into autopilot, some energy saving mode in which subtleties are simply being tossed out the window and only very basic processing is being done.


----------



## jcx

I want to point to some annoying hypocrisy in the last few pages, several posts bashing straw man "objectivists" caricatures
  
 need I quote the 1st post, the plea for avoiding attacks - doesn't it run both ways?
  
  
 some of the forum dominant "subjectivists" seem to lack intellectual maturity to apply such standards to positions they don't agree with
  
 too often insulting distortions, stereotypes of those "stupid, tin eared meter readers" get kudos, "well dones" and "attaboys" from their posse
  
  
 it is a bad dynamic for the forum, the hobby and a direct affront to this thread's OP "conditions"
  
  
  
 those applying controls to their listening do often start from the position of "hearing differences" in less controlled situations - and choose to test the perception to a, in their opinion, higher standard
  
 serious students of audio perception do actually perceive new to them, even previously disbelieved audio differences when they can DBT ABX a difference
  
  
 I badgered Ethan Winer into listening for "absolute polarity"  which he had previously publically denied - Ethan performs, records, builds room treatments, runs workshops, writes on audio, music recording tech
  
 on listening, successful AB/X he readily admitted learning that the waveform polarity was audible, perceived as a slight pitch change despite having exactly the same frequency components in the test waveforms
  
  
 there are "naïve objectivists" - jumping to conclusions, making unjustified "scientific" claims - but I see their supposed claims more often in the writings of "subjectivists" wanting easy targets - when they haven't fabricated the strawman from whole cloth to start just for bashing
  
 want "conventional audio measurements" worth writing about, debating - try reading Audio Precison white papers, manuals - don't make up the claim that someone serious still uses (or ever did) 1 kHz THD at one level as the sole audio quality metric
  
 I and others interested in audio already own Fastl&Zwicker's Psychoacoustics, attend talks, demos, tour studios, own $k of headphones...


----------



## johnjen

Um, I don't see which posts you are referring to, especially with reference to "forum dominant "subjectivists" seem to lack intellectual maturity".

And by itself this statement seems to fall into the same trap as "the plea for avoiding attacks - doesn't it run both ways?"

IOW, I'm confused as to what posts you are railing against and why.

Could you be a bit more specific and kindly leave the denigrations at the door?


Thanks JJ


----------



## jcx

you don't think people working form a scientific skepticism point of reference, having educated themselves in real experimental design, the strong results from perceptual psychology at large, psychoacoustics in particular aren't justified in finding some of these offensive?
  
 Quote:


> I have a great idea for some – they could blindfold themselves, add earplugs and experiment on making love to various consenting women...


 
 Quote: 





> Yes, "objectivists" seem particularly fond of spreading this...


 


> ...And it is their opinion that they are expressing, nothing more, because they haven't experimented (subjected their opinion to verification) with sufficient thoroughness.
> 
> But once they do hear differences, then the challenge is to come to grips with it.
> This can be difficult at times due to their past history of denying there IS any difference, and then suddenly their experience tells them their opinion was incorrect.


 
  
 "intellectual immaturity" is actually a "soft" interpretation - it can be curable ignorance
  
 the other interpretation is malicious intent - or do you have another way of seeing it?


----------



## johnjen

Um, well, that is a step towards what I asked.
But from what posts are those quotes from?
As in, what is the context in which those posts were made?

I do recognize a few of them but the context is as important as the quote itself.

Thanks JJ


----------



## tonykaz

Hello Mistah AB, yet again.
  
 I've read y'all writing about Linear power supplies but never gave a thought to why you were using one.  I'd thought the Garage1217 stuff was supplied with Power supplies, aren't they? 
  
 I just though that a Lab. guy  wouldn't buy ( or want )  the stock unit if you already had something you trusted.  
  
 Now I get the impression that you actually recommend a better than stock Power supply, ( which isn't at all expensive ).  
  
 Why?
  
 Do the Garage1217 guys offer something? 
  
 I kinda like the idea of these little Tube Amps with the colorful LED lights, I'm deciding between the one you own and the Ember.  Maybe I'll become a Tube Rolling hobbyist kind of "Nut-case" my peers will tell funny stories about.  I could make a beautiful Walnut presentation Case for all the Tubes and even have Tube T-shirts printed up.  I need something like this to take my mind off the "Serious" issues facing us.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## bimmer100

tonykaz said:


> Hello Mistah AB, yet again.
> 
> I've read y'all writing about Linear power supplies but never gave a thought to why you were using one.  I'd thought the Garage1217 stuff was supplied with Power supplies, aren't they?
> 
> ...


----------



## tonykaz

To the mysterious Bimmer100,
  
 I am mostly quite serious.
  
 Although I do use a bit of silly,  from time to time.
  
 I have the feeling that these Garage1217 guys are quite serious designers, are they? 
  
 And I realize that AtomicBob is a marvelous Audio Lab guy with tons of superb Lab gear within easy reach.
  
 So, my question stands : is the Ember power supply sufficient or does some "need" become apparent that the "Linear" device fills?
  
 Sarcasm is anger, I hope I don't give 'that' impression!, I'm asking AB because I value his reasoning and recommendations.  
  
 The Ember interests me for the additional energy it is capable of delivering but I'm a Sennheiser man with little interest in power hungry planers, a few extra dollars gets the "top" and latest Garage1217 design. ( or am I wrong on this ?)
  
 I do kinda like Tubes.   I started life when 80 & 75 Tubes were in common use, but I've gone Solid-State, decades ago, when I discovered how well they deliver deep bass.  I'm a Schiit Asgard2 owner and a previous Agent of Electrocompaniet.  
  
 I no longer am a DIY kind of person but I was in the early 1950s when I was building Ham Radio Stations. Nowadays I trust manufacturers to deliver optimum designs that folks like me would have a difficult time equaling or bettering.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## landroni

jcx said:


> "intellectual immaturity" is actually a "soft" interpretation - it can be curable ignorance
> 
> 
> the other interpretation is malicious intent - or do you have another way of seeing it?


 

 As you very well know, the first reference is a post by Mike Moffat from a very different thread. It was quoted here as it is funny (as in a joke), and evocative of a potentially major methodological failure in the traditional "objectivist" approach when testing things audio.
  
 Aside this, discussing the way of thinking and the unrealistically stubborn positions of many "objectivists" cannot possibly be offending. Discussing potential flaws in the scientific method as applied to audio evaluation cannot be either. Yet going straight to words like "intellectual immaturity" and calling people "ignorant" is ad hominem on the face of it. Please remember that "objectivists" have earned very little goodwill from the community by using language, like Ethan Winer whom you quote, along the lines of "audiophoolery". And you're not doing yourself any favors, either, given your language and tone. And if you really wanted something hardcore you'd be reading something like this:
 http://www.analogplanet.com/content/gizmodo-wont-post-my-comment-so-im-posting-them-here
  
 But you won't find anything like this in this thread. Discussing the potential intellectual weaknesses in the scientific methodology in a very specific setting cannot possibly be deemed offending. Unless of course you are trying to steer the discussion in a very specific direction, gaining moral high-ground instead of actually addressing the arguments and issues raised.


----------



## landroni

And while we're on the subject of ABX testing and measurements in audioland, here's a very measured and pertinent comment from Robert Ludwig:
 http://tapeop.com/interviews/105/bob-ludwig/
  
 "[Q:] You once said that today's converters, with great clocking, cannot be differentiated from the analog source by anyone you've tested.
_[A:] I'm not saying that no one can ever hear the difference, I'm merely saying when someone comes into the studio for a quick visit and I play the source vs. high resolution digital, a 96 kHz, 192 kHz, or DSD copy, no one can immediately pick out the difference. Don't forget, these are all awesome converters. The quality of the engineering of the analog-to-digital converter and DAC is much, much more important to the musicality of the sound than the sampling rate could ever be. Our $8,000 converters at 16-bit/44.1 kHz sound way, way better than a 192 kHz playback from a $5 chip on a DVD-Audio player. I think the higher resolution sounds reveal themselves not in A/B testing, but in long periods of time. Play an entire album in a relaxed atmosphere at 96 kHz/24-bit, then, at the end, listen to it at 44.1 kHz/16-bit, and you'll get it right away. A/B testing, while the only scientific method we have, does not reveal too much with short-term back-and-forth comparisons due to the anxiety the brain is under doing such a test. The brain becomes very left-brain-technical, rather than right-brain creative and musical._"


----------



## bimmer100

tonykaz said:


> To the mysterious Bimmer100,
> 
> I am mostly quite serious.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Tony,
  
 Well, to be honest I wasn't entirely sure with you talking about a colorful LED lights and being a "nut case". +walnut presentation case?! really? lol
 I wasn't sure if you're trying to insult or actually are being serious. So thank you for the clarification.  
  
 As far as linear power supplies... I am not too familiar with the PSIII amp. I understand it has the LM317A LDO linear regulator which should be considered fairly low noise. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is this the one used in the "stock" power supply?  The one recommended, Jays Audio, ALSO has the same LM317. I'm not sure the exact specs of this LPS but if it's the same regulator, it's possibly very similar results... I would think an R-Core would be ideal for the power supply, or at least out perform the Talema. 
  
 there is another LPS i'm interested to try. It has the Super 11 LPS board being used, and rated for 20uV! it can be ordered in 24V as well. Thoughts?
  
 I believe the PSU is based on the board...
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembled-S11-SUPER-linear-regulated-power-supply-board-LPS-PSU-L1511-10-/191730647300?hash=item2ca4098104:g:yRgAAOSw14xWOE6n
  

  
  
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-end-SUPER-PSU-30VA-DC12V-2A-Linear-Power-supply-LPS-for-Audio-Sources-/121818621995?hash=item1c5cf4a82b:g:5LoAAOSwLzdWTUR6
  
  
  
  
  
  
 I am no expert, but from what I do know... I would think this LPS would be better than the 24V Jay's Audio with the LM317
  
  
  
 And i'm new to this, as some would call me a "noob".
  
 My dad is into building Ham Radios. He has a whole basement full of gear. I have a lot of respect for those who are into that hobby.
  
  
 I'm into Solid State gear mostly, and likely have been sucked into a lot of the hype. My setup would likely be polar opposite of what you prefer.

 I prefer my HE560's and Oppo PM3's over my sennheiser's. But I have crappy sennheisers   I did just pick up a pair of dynamic headphones from the massdrop special recently. The Fostex TH-X00's.  I am in for a surprise on them. I have no idea what to expect. The idea that they could be a "basshead' headphone slightly turns me off, but some say they are the most neutral of all the fostex line. 600 or 900. 
  
  
 Back to Linear Power Supplies. I'm going to order one of those SUPER-PSU's and give it a shot. I have two TeraDak LPS, the DC30W R-Core and the UV9. Also a Teddy Pardo 5V. My gear runs off an A/C regenerator  PS300. I'm not sure if the Linear power supplies are really needed.


----------



## jcx

just don't get it do you? - the "intellectual maturity" comment specifically refered to the application of the OP conditions, pleas for avoiding attacks
  
 you don't get to decide, point out "_discussing the way of thinking and the unrealistically stubborn positions of many "objectivists" cannot possibly be offending_" in this thread if you respect the OP terms, and can apply those to even positions you dislike, disbelieve
  
 "tit for tat" is not respecting the OP terms for this thread
  
 you should understand too when "jokes" can be offensive in their construction, presentation - and that they also get judged by presenter's apparent motivations
  
  
 and you appear very ignorant of my personal position, how I draw the line of "scientific skepticism"
  
 as evidenced in my posts in Sound Science - where I am clear that 44.1 can't be "proved" to adequate for every human on the planet - that there are "suggestive" studies - and that they don't rise to the level of revising Fastl
  
 if hearing higher sample rate vs well done 44.1 as easy as your link presents then get these example tracks and golden ears to a lab with an experienced, recognized worker in the field - I believe there was exactly such an open invitation published by Meyer/Moran
  
 and then with replication of vetted, quality, controlled listening tests academics will revise the textbooks and "the controversy" goes away - "objectivists" are happy to follow the data, "subjectivists" would be able to point to the "official story" - high res download sites get to charge more - what's not to like?


----------



## tonykaz

Hello Mr.Bimmer100,
  
 Thanks for writing back.
  
 I do like those LED lights, Garage1217 have a three color capability which makes them change to any color a person prefers, a nice feature if a person likes lights. 
  
 I am serious about building a Case to house a Tube collection, I own the machinery to make something like this, I understand a person could have considerable funds invested in a selection of Tubes, ( perhaps a thousand dollars or more ).  
  
 All of my peer group have various "unique" hobby interests, my Tube adventure would have me being considered as something of a 'Tube' "Nutter" ( in a fun way ).   I have one friend that collects Dictionaries, headphone hobby has folks like Tyll & Jude who own Walls filled with headphones.
  
 I'm hopeful that someone on this DIY group will explain the advantage of elaborate Power Supplies.  I do realize that Power Supplies can range from Batteries all the way to storage capacitors.  I suspect that Power supplies are another hobby niche.
  
 I'll take AtomicBob's opinion as being useful, if he decides to comment on this.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## bimmer100

tonykaz said:


> Hello Mr.Bimmer100,
> 
> Thanks for writing back.
> 
> ...




I want to get into tube amps more, but not sure where to start really. I have never heard any tube amp I liked other than one. The zana duex. That's about it. Otherwise I guess I'm boring and just prefer solid state. I want to build a tube amp with some sort of DIY kit. Just for the fun of it. Now that I have a pair of fostex th-x00's on the way, I think a tube amp may be nice. My he-560's basically sound like garbage on most every tube amp I have tried. I know they are demanding and need to be matched with the proper tube amp. 
Anyhow, the psIII as a DIY looks sweet, and maybe a fancy super-PsU. That would make for a great project. I may consider a small tube collection. They surely can be pricey... But I have already spent insane amounts on power cables, interconnects, adapters, headphones and even dap/Dac/amps. So why not have a lot of everything?!  I'm already kinda crazy in the eyes of many of my friends. Insane audio gear. One thing is for sure, I don't want to be seen as a wine sipping snob. I do love red wine though  


I think everyone has a right to their opinion and I will pass on the drama that this hobby seems to draw in. (Cough) (cough) this thread was interesting and seemed like a drama free thread at first, but I'm likely to unsubscribe now. I prefer straight forward opinionated reviews that I can choose to take with a grain of salt. I love to tweak stuff and love to try things that may or may not work in my setup. So thank you to those who started this thread!! You know who you are! I appreciate the local guys who like to take this hobby a step further and get into the testing and tweaking side of things. I will never forget that it's just about the music for me, but there is a small part in me that loves to play with new stuff like cables, psu's, etc etc. I don't have time to argue about who is right or wrong. Each to their own. This thread surely went off on a tangent. Let's try to keep this on topic. PLEASE!!!! There are threads for those who like to argue and disagree. I believe this thread was created to be a safe haven for those who want to share their experiences. I have said my two cents. No offense to anyone.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.Bimmer100,
  
 Well, there you have it, a Music lover, like myself.  
  
 My main interest is collecting Music, mostly 16/44 Redbook CDs.  
  
 AtomicBob had me interested in a Bottlehead ( I still am ), now he reports the Garage1217 as being even more interesting.
  
 I nearly purchased a Schiit Valhalla 2 ( may still do so ).  
  
 I would like to dabble in the Tube rolling experience so the Sunrise and Ember designs seem more interesting.
  
 AtomicBob is the guy I'm paying attention to, he and Bob Katz are leading authorities writing to us.  Bob Katz has the advantage of being the actual creator of Music recordings so he owns the Standards we measure our own gear against.  
  
 I'll have to include Jason Stoddard & Mike Moffat as useful and reliable sources.
  
 Tyll is my main Authority for headphone transducers.
  
 I've worked in this Audio Field as an Importer, Manufacturer and Retailer.  
  
 I'm aware of the intense "Hype" involved in Sales. I'm also aware of how owners defend their purchases and write as authorities on all things Audio, Head-Fi is saturated with "Ametuer Authorities" gushing with praise for anything and everything.  Let em Gush.  
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## jcx

complicated regulated supplies do often help with "simple" amp circuits - since "simple" amp circuits often have poor Power Supply Rejection a regulated supply can give better numbers, may even translate to better audible performance in some instances
  
 "simple" regulated supplies are possible too - but the size and cost of passives such as power chokes with useful 60 Hz Z, power waste of shunt regulators such as gas tubes or Zeners can be daunting
  
 of course in Audio one man's poor price performance tradeoff is likely another's "Statement Amp"
  
  
 Mike and Jason may not be the diy audio source you hope for - both have made strong statements that they won't reveal circuit or algorithm details
  
 as MOT they can't say much about other manufacturer's circuit choices either
  
  
 from what I see of Schiit product internal photos - Jason(?) does use split bobbin EI mains transformers - a hobby horse of mine from long before they formed Schiit
 many serious EE board level designers recognize the lower primary-secondary parasitic coupling of Split bobbins compared to toroids
 while toroids did have Audiophile cachet from long ago when they were exotic, expensive they are worse for letting power line noise through
 you do need greater spacing or shielding with EI leaking more magnetic field than toroids - but you always have engineering tradeoffs


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## atomicbob

landroni said:


> Many people do not appreciate just how much brain processing goes into something as mundane as speech recognition. Let alone analysing and appreciating art in the form of complex harmonics.
> 
> <edit>
> 
> I've seen first-hand (and felt it too) how difficult it is to switch just to a 2nd language, so doing switcheroos with DACs within very short periods of time can't possibly be a good idea if the goal is to appreciate the quality of artistic rendering of sounds. Doing so repeatedly will likely make your brain enter into autopilot, some energy saving mode in which subtleties are simply being tossed out the window and only very basic processing is being done.


 
 I perform voice over editing in languages I don't speak due to my abilities to identify and eliminate mouth noises without degrading the utterances, as verified by production managers that do speak the languages. It is very mentally demanding work. I can only begin to imagine how taxing it must be, switching among languages in those of you gifted in multilingual abilities. While the tasks are quite different, the mental processing challenges may be similarly demanding, in my opinion, in determining differences in audible differentiation.


----------



## atomicbob

tonykaz said:


> Hello Mistah AB, yet again.
> 
> I've read y'all writing about Linear power supplies but never gave a thought to why you were using one.  I'd thought the Garage1217 stuff was supplied with Power supplies, aren't they?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Tony,
  
 The Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) provided by Garage1217 are a compromise between performance and price point. The amplifiers from them are targeting a fairly low price point. A SMPS is typically less expensive these days than a similarly spec'd Linear Power Supply (LPS.) The SMPS from Garage1217 are very good, however the LPS I use offer lower noise and better regulation. I'll attach a few graphs.
  
 I have both the Project Sunrise III and Project Ember. The Project Sunrise III appeals to me more due to the following:
 1. No feedback (NFB) design
 2. Class A output stage (no crossover distortion)
 3. Tube is employed for voltage amplification with < 400uV of plate current required due to the plate driving the input of a mosfet running class A
 4. Mosfet provides current amplification
  
 Other attributes that I find useful but not necessarily unique compared to the Project Ember
 5. can be configured to have only one capacitor in the entire signal path, the output capacitors
 6. Configurable for multiple output impedances
  
 The two LPS I use and recommend for the Project Sunrise III are
 1. Talema 25W 24V L156-6 Linear Power Supply
 2. Keysight (was Agilent, was HP before Agilent) U8001A
  
 Please note the Project Ember uses a 48Vdc SMPS. They are NOT interchangeable.
  
 Here are some graphs.
 These are measured with a Picoscope 5243B running 15 bits in ADC resolution
 Measurement point is at the power supply inlet to the amplifier.
  
 Garage1217 provided SMPS  4 mVpp ripple at approx 560 Hz

  
 Talema L156-6 LPS  3 mVpp ripple at 60 Hz

  
 Keysight U8001  <0.5 mVpp ripple

  
 Keysight / Agilent / HP electrical engineers definitely know how design a quiet laboratory power supply.
  
 The improved performance for these supplies do require a cost tradeoff:
  
 1. the Garage1217 SMPS is provided with the amplifier, would cost $18 in single unit quantities
 2. Talema L156-6 is approx $120 on ebay
 3. Keysight U8001A is now $441 from most suppliers, though an occasional deal crops up for approx $269


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## tonykaz

Thank you AB,
  
 So, it's ripple that we're talking about, 
  
 I hadn't thought of or considered any of the "advantages" you mention, I'd considered "Tube Rolling" as the only advantage.  
  
 Now, I understand that Power Supply rolling, OP-amp rolling and a few other things that can be changed or adjusted are the main Feature sets.
  
 Garage1217 are a Neurotic/Psychotic's "Dream" design, the Schiit Vahalla 2 would be the other side of this Coin. ( along with the Bottlehead that I liked so much )
  
 All of us reading this Head-Fi are DIYers, some work with a soldering iron, most work with a Credit Card, we are on a fun Adventure.
  
 Thank you for offering reliable advice on these matters.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> I perform voice over editing in languages I don't speak due to my abilities to identify and eliminate mouth noises without degrading the utterances, as verified by production managers that do speak the languages. It is very mentally demanding work. I can only begin to imagine how taxing it must be, switching among languages in those of you gifted in multilingual abilities. While the tasks are quite different, the mental processing challenges may be similarly demanding, in my opinion, in determining differences in audible differentiation.


 

 Which brings us to the next logical point: "golden ears" is hardly about the "ear" per se; it is about the _brain_. It is about concentration, attention, pattern recognition and analysis, directing as much brain processing resources as possible towards the task of analysing complex and multilayered harmonics.....


----------



## nedifer

> Originally Posted by *atomicbob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The improved performance for these supplies do require a cost tradeoff:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi atomicbob,
  
 The one component that sometimes gets left out of the discussion around implementing linear power supplies is the cable used between the linear power supply whatever it is powering.
  
 Do you usually build these by hand?  Or are they available for purchase anywhere (from the linear power supply vendor or third parties)?
  
 It seems to me that this might be useful information, particularly for those of us who might not be comfortable with building a custom cable (particularly if wiring it incorrectly might put the equipment we want to power at risk).  And looking at the various things around the house that are powered via wall warts, there can be a not insignificant amount of variance on the kinds of connectors used, polarity, etc...
  
 Any insights you have on this would be much appreciated, time permitting of course.
  
 Thanks!
  
 --Nedifer


----------



## johnjen

My 2¢ about Power Supplies (PS).
Besides just the noise level the PS delivers to the active amplification sections of the load, there are other aspects of the 'behavior' of the PS that can and do influence the sonic performance.

There are a slew of terms used but the one that seems to standout (at least for me) is the 'stiffness' AND the response time (slew rate) of the power supply.

IOW when the active amplification section calls for 'power', how quick can the PS supply the current demanded by the active stage. 
AND
By 'stiffness' is implied how well does the voltage stay 'stationary' (not sag) during any current dump.

The less the sag AND the greater the speed at which the PS responds to the instantaneous demand for power, the less influence it (PS) will have on the sonic 'signature' of the amp itself.

Another way of thinking about this is…
The PS is providing the power for the analog signal, PLUS the 'wasted' energy needed by the circuit to operate and even BE an amp or other active circuit in the first place.
IOW the PS needs to supply the power that turns into the signal we hear.
Which in turn means it 'ideally' should exactly track the analog signals dynamics. 
The only difference is we use a modulated voltage signal to determine the audible results, whereas the PS is modulating the current flow instead. 
In fact the idea that an amp IS a PS, one that can be modulated to provide a 'perfect' analog signal, has been around for a while now.

Put another way the PS is (or should be) a direct reflection of the analog signal, along with supplying the additional power to operate the entire electronic device, at the same time.

Some PS's do a better job at meeting both the voltage and current demands for audio, than others.

JJ
ps just to clarify, when I start out with "my 2¢" I am expressing my opinion, which as I see it all are free to do.
With but one proviso, 
AS LONG AS the contributions are constructive, which is a creative activity in contrast to it's polar opposite.
That being criticism and BMW'ng (Bitching Moaning & Whining, which is a holdover from another site) .:atsmile:

There are ways of asking questions to resolve questions that don't need to be confrontational.


----------



## atomicbob

tonykaz said:


> Thank you AB,
> 
> So, it's ripple that we're talking about,
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Tony,
  
 Ripple was the particular attribute for which I chose to provide graphs. It isn't the only one that improves. There are also load regulation, residual regulation perturbations and oscillations, very high frequency noise (spikes), and so on. I chose not to post the additional graphs so I wouldn't feel obligated to explain how to read those graphs to anyone not familiar with the measurements. I'm not retired yet and still must live within time constraints for my discretionary free time.


----------



## atomicbob

nedifer said:


> Hi atomicbob,
> 
> The one component that sometimes gets left out of the discussion around implementing linear power supplies is the cable used between the linear power supply whatever it is powering.
> 
> ...


 
 A very good question. I built my own using Cable Matters OFC 14 gauge twisted pair and 5.5mm x 2.1mm CCTV power plugs and Pomona MDP dual banana plug in the case of the U8001A lab supply. Nothing magic, just short, highest gauge cable the connectors would accommodate. No soldering required with these particular plugs. The picture shows 16 ga but I have since replaced with 14 ga.


----------



## atomicbob

tonykaz said:


> <edit>
> I do kinda like Tubes.   I started life when 80 & 75 Tubes were in common use, but I've gone Solid-State, decades ago, when I discovered how well they deliver deep bass.  I'm a Schiit Asgard2 owner and a previous Agent of Electrocompaniet.


 
 Garage1217 amps, though they have a tube in the path, delivery nearly DC thanks to their topologies. That said, the Asgard2 is a very nice amp with a substantial linear power supply built in. I am evaluating one of those as I write this. Asgard2, Bifrost MB, HD650 and Sonarworks Ref3 compensation played through JRiver MC. I still have a slight preference for the Project Sunrise III (12BH7) and LPS. But I would listen to the Asgard without hesitation, and probably will do so all evening (and more.) I could be listening with the Ygg or GiMB and Liquid Crimson, Liquid Carbon or ZDSE and HD800 or any of a dozen other lab cans.


----------



## tonykaz

Dear AB,
  
 Thank you for this explanation.  I probably realized these performance features of Power Supplies, I once bought an Instrument Grade Power Supply for our Experimental Lab that already owned a few such devices.  
  
 I only summarized by saying "ripple", of course much more is involved in the performance of these devices.  
  
 I'm not at all certain that I wish to go beyond "playing" with tube rolling.  I'm quite pleased with my gear, little packages arriving in the Mail would or could be another bit of excitement.  Geez, I could buy these things from all over the World. What fun.  Trying a wide range of Tubes is the attraction for me.  I suppose I could buy another Lab Power Supply ( they aren't all that expensive ) but I'm not certain I want a bench with a Scope and other gear, I am having a great time with my Festool stuff and building little projects.   I'm also building a collection of "The Great Courses" on CD.  I have time to learn stuff that I've never had access to!
  
 Thanks (too) for the "slight" preference comment, it kinda falls into line with my own experience with Amps.  The only Blown-Away amp experiences I've had were from the Conrad-Johnson MV-45a driving Magnapans  and the Electocompaniet Ampliwire Amps playing Dynamic Speakers. My little Schiit performs equally with the Electrocomaniet ( I may own an especially good Asgard2, I don't hear of others raving about the design ), right now I'm listening to Colin Davis/Boston Sym. playing Sibelius Sym #3 which is sending shivers down my back, the ultra low frequencies are taking me to quivering ( Senn. HD580s ) Phew!!  
  
 Anyway, thanks for writing.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## atomicbob

So at the end of the day, if you want to roll tubes (12BH7 is a must try), change output impedances, try different power supplies and generally experiment, the Project Sunrise III is a great approach for the amp. If you don't want to change anything and really want everything to be free of such experimentation while achieving a really good sound, then Asgard2 is great choice. Either with a Bifrost MB of course. And HD650 or HD800 headphones.


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> So at the end of the day, if you want to roll tubes (12BH7 is a must try), change output impedances, try different power supplies and generally experiment, the Project Sunrise III is a great approach for the amp. If you don't want to change anything and really want everything to be free of such experimentation while achieving a really good sound, then Asgard2 is great choice. Either with a Bifrost MB of course. And HD650 or HD800 headphones.


 

 Would PSIII or Asgard2 be capable of running (and performing well with) something really inefficient like the HE-6? 
  
 It comes with the following specs:
 http://hifiman.com/products/detail/75
 Sensitivity : 83.5dB
 Impedance : 50 Ohms
  
 Asgard2 does:
 Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1.0W RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.0W RMS per channel
  
 And PSIII can do something like 0.5W per channel into 64 ohms.
  
 My understanding is that the HE-6 needs something like at least 1W per channel for full blast, and their recommended amps come with 2W per channel. But I'm new to this kind of computations and may be getting it wrong...


----------



## bimmer100

landroni said:


> Would PSIII or Asgard2 be capable of running (and performing well with) something really inefficient like the HE-6?
> 
> It comes with the following specs:
> http://hifiman.com/products/detail/75
> ...




From what I understand, there are not a lot of amps that can power the he-6 properly. And by proper, I mean well and ideal. I would estimate that the PSIII and Asgard2 couldn't power them well at all. Basically will sound like tin cans and low DB. The ragnarok can power them if you like schiit amps, and I know the he-6's sound sublime from my audio-gd master-11 with more than enough power to drive them properly. 

It does 8000mw per channel @50ohm and pure class A. 

I have not tested the he-6 on an asgard2, but looking at the specs I would say it wouldn't drive them well. And surely not the project sunrise III. Please correct me if I'm wrong since I don't own that gear, but am saying this just based on white paper specs. I believe those amps were recommended with specific headphones in mind. Nothing like the HE-6! Which happens to be the hardest to drive headphones around. But if you're on a budget, the asgard2 and a pair of hd650's will be hard to beat. Not to my liking, but they are good amps for the money. 

I think the 86db @50ohm is with 1000mw per channel, so if 86db is enough... Ok. Maybe why they recommend at least 2watt per channel, but that still doesn't get to "blasting" levels. I don't recall the exact math for power increase=however many more DB. please chime in if you can give some estimates of what the he-6 would require for "blasting" levels. I would say 92-95db is more than enough for most listeners who like to blow their ear drums  the downside would be when you have low level recordings and require even more power to drive them to ideal DB levels. That's why I ended up buying a beast of an amp. I love classical music and love to listen at higher DB than some. Even my he560's I think are hard to drive for most amps. But what do I know, I have only tried them on a couple dozen amps with a handful of the amps being able to drive them well in all conditions and have a tiny bit of headroom.


----------



## atomicbob

landroni said:


> Would PSIII or Asgard2 be capable of running (and performing well with) something really inefficient like the HE-6?
> 
> It comes with the following specs:
> http://hifiman.com/products/detail/75
> ...


 
 The issue I have with using power to decide suitability of matching amp to electro-acoustic driver is that it doesn't sufficiently describe the necessary parameters. One driver may require high voltage and low current to perform optimally. Another may want the opposite, low voltage and high current. Yet both might have the same power required. I will attach a graph in another post demonstrating the needs of various popular headphones. Using the published nominal impedance and sensitivity for the HE-6 would require 50 mW to achieve 100 dB SPL average with 500 mW for 110 dB SPL peaks, assuming a 10 dB crest factor in the recording. But what the HE-6 really wants is 14Vpp with 100mA peak to hit the 110 dB SPL without strain.
  
 <edit> I forgot to answer the question. I think the PSIII would be marginal at best for the HE-6 unless one listens at lower sound levels. My experience at meets is most listening to planars also listen VERY LOUD. Thus the discrepancy in adequacy of a given amp for a given listener. I probably could use the PSIII for an HE-6. I listen at 75 ~ 85 dB SPL in a quiet environment. Most others would find the PSIII inadequate and even the Asgard2 inadequate to achieve 110 dB SPL avg with peaks to 120 dB that I observe them listening. I built a SPL meter dummy head to quickly verify where listeners set their auditioning sound levels in my acoustic lab. It is based on the work of Joop Nijenhuis Headphone sound level meter.


----------



## atomicbob

20151228 update: this table contains some inaccuracies from old product literature. An updated version of this table including independent measurements appears here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/195#post_12202114
  
 Here is a table comparing the Vrms, Vpp, Ima and Power to achieve 100 dB SPL average and 110 dB SPL peak for various popular headphone, based on published specifications and nominal impedances. This ignores any impedance bumps a given headphone driver may have.


----------



## bimmer100

atomicbob said:


> The issue I have with using power to decide suitability of matching amp to electro-acoustic driver is that it doesn't sufficiently describe the necessary parameters. One driver may require high voltage and low current to perform optimally. Another may want the opposite, low voltage and high current. Yet both might have the same power required. I will attach a graph in another post demonstrating the needs of various popular headphones. Using the published nominal impedance and sensitivity for the HE-6 would require 50 mW to achieve 100 dB SPL average with 500 mW for 110 dB SPL peaks, assuming a 10 dB crest factor in the recording. But what the HE-6 really wants is 14Vpp with 100mA peak to hit the 110 dB SPL without strain.




So he was asking if the Asgard 2 and the project sunrise III would be able to power the HE-6? 
Do they have enough voltage? As your charts are informative, they also are confusing if you don't understand them entirely. I'm not too proud to admit I don't fully understand. so is there a simple way to look at things so things can give understood more clearly? I've not heard of anyone talking about powering their he-6 with 50mw or 100mw and 14vpp volts. And I mean explaining in those terms, not saying those specs would not be proper. 
 Can you explain the Asgard 2's specs with voltage vpp and vrms. Why is it that manufacturers don't explain these things? 

Isn't there amps that will power every headphone well no matter what it wants? Would that be ideal? Or would my amp actually be crap for certain amps because it has too much power. When you said "One driver may require high voltage and low current to perform optimally. Another may want the opposite, low voltage and high current. Yet both might have the same power required." I thought to myself, well what do we look for to be able to tell if the amp will be ideal for the headphone. Is my amp not ideal since it may have too much power and not enough voltage, power or current etc. It sounds like too much power could be bad but I thought the headphone only will draw as much as it needs? Assuming it's available.

Why would a creative sound blaster e5 amp rated with 1000mw output not be enough to power some he-560's well. Sounds like crap in my opinion. And a geek pulse infinity can power the he-560's but with no headroom. Why do people say that amp is so powerful yet powers the he-560's to levels that are good yet at full maxed out volume and no headroom. I'm not complaining about the sound quality from a geek pulse infinity but I'm surely glad I didn't buy one since it has no headroom for classical music with low level recordings while using my he-560's. My nfb-28 did much better imho. I wish I understood more about amplifiers and why some do so much better than others.


----------



## landroni

bimmer100 said:


> I wish I understood more about amplifiers and why some do so much better than others.


 

 Here are two pieces that go into the nitty gritty of amp specs and compatibility with headphones:
 http://nwavguy.blogspot.ca/2011/09/more-power.html
 http://www.rayfes.com/caraudio/ampspec.php
  
 Both readings are quite terse and technical, but are very interesting if you want to better understand specs, what they mean and how they can be useful (e.g. matching headphones and amps). The first link gives a number of computations, but there is the occasional typo which doesn't help understanding, and some computations are a tad confusing. They do discuss at length Vrms, Vpp, mW, and how to convert between the various measures.


----------



## atomicbob

bimmer100 said:


> So he was asking if the Asgard 2 and the project sunrise III would be able to power the HE-6?Can you explain the Asgard 2's specs with voltage vpp and vrms.





> Why is it that manufacturers don't explain these things?





> Isn't there amps that will power every headphone well no matter what it wants? Would that be ideal? Or would my amp actually be crap for certain amps because it has too much power.
> 
> Why would a creative sound blaster e5 amp rated with 1000mw output not be enough to power some he-560's well. Sounds like crap in my opinion.


 
 Reasonable question. I did forget to answer the question and edited that post to offer a bit more opinion on the question. Still not a full answer. Without knowing how loud in SPL the user wishes to listen, it is hard to answer. I will have to measure the Asgard 2. On my (rather long) list of things to do in my spare time.
  
 Garage1217 does sort of publish the information if one looks at their power graphs, though you have to work backwards from the power at a given nominal impedance to find the Vrms and I (current.) The math is fairly simple and only uses:
  
 1)  I=E/R (where E is Vrms in this case) Ohm's Law
 2)  P=Vrms*I
 3)  P=Vrms^2/R
 4)  Vpp = Vrms * Sqrt(2) * 2
 5)  dB SPL = Sensitivity dB/mW * P
  
 But most manufacturers stick to tradition and requirements of the FTC, and also avoid this discussion. Schiit, Garage1217, Cavalli, and a few others catering to this market are exceptions.
  
 Amps usually have design trade offs to achieve target price point. A higher voltage output may have a higher noise floor unless greater effort (and cost) is allowed for the power supply, layout, amplifier topology etc. Output impedance of amps vary between designs. The one size fits all usually has switches to allow gain changes to manipulate these parameters to juggle the needs of different headphones and IEMs. My Cavalli Liquid Crimson fits into the one amp does everything (and very well too.) It still requires multiple outputs and a gain switch to manipulate parameters. It will handle IEMs to HE-6. That comes at a cost of $3K. My answer here can be considered incomplete at best. There are other places where this topic is discussed in much greater depth.


----------



## bimmer100

landroni said:


> Here are two pieces that go into the nitty gritty of amp specs and compatibility with headphones:
> http://nwavguy.blogspot.ca/2011/09/more-power.html
> http://www.rayfes.com/caraudio/ampspec.php
> 
> Both readings are quite terse and technical, but are very interesting if you want to better understand specs, what they mean and how they can be useful (e.g. matching headphones and amps). The first link gives a number of computations, but there is the occasional typo which doesn't help understanding, and some computations are a tad confusing. They do discuss at length Vrms, Vpp, mW, and how to convert between the various measures.


 
 Thank you, I will definitely read up on this tonight.
  
 I'm a bit concerned mainly because of AB's comment I quoted. It sounds as if a powerful amp would not be ideal in some situations. I've tried so many amps and was so frustrated that I tried a new approach... just get a beast. So far i've not had any headphone or IEM sound bad with my setup. But of course, that's just my opinion.


----------



## landroni

bimmer100 said:


> I'm a bit concerned mainly because of AB's comment I quoted. It sounds as if a powerful amp would not be ideal in some situations. I've tried so many amps and was so frustrated that I tried a new approach... just get a beast. So far i've not had any headphone or IEM sound bad with my setup. But of course, that's just my opinion.


 

 Which one did you get? Schiit's Ragnarok is being marketed for both "some" IEMs and desktop speakers. It should drive the HE-6 with watts to spare. And apparently should work just fine with efficient headphones like Grados.


----------



## bimmer100

atomicbob said:


> Reasonable question. I did forget to answer the question and edited that post to offer a bit more opinion on the question. Still not a full answer. Without knowing how loud in SPL the user wishes to listen, it is hard to answer. I will have to measure the Asgard 2. On my (rather long) list of things to do in my spare time.
> 
> Garage1217 does sort of publish the information if one looks at their power graphs, though you have to work backwards from the power at a given nominal impedance to find the Vrms and I (current.) The math is fairly simple and only uses:
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you AB, for explaining the math. I would love to learn more in time.  I would love to have my Master11 tested and scrutinized to understand it a bit more. Happy to loan it out if needed. I realize you're busy although wonder if it's of interest to you. I understand it has similar technology to Bakoon's Satri tech. Kingwa is pretty good about posting some of the specifications of this dac/amp combo. To my ears, it sounds more musical than most setups i've heard, and with any headphone/iem. It's not cheap, but it surely seems like a lot of bang for the buck being an all in one unit.


----------



## bimmer100

landroni said:


> Which one did you get? Schiit's Ragnarok is being marketed for both "some" IEMs and desktop speakers. It should drive the HE-6 with watts to spare. And apparently should work just fine with efficient headphones like Grados.


 
 The ragnarok is pure class A up to about 4.2watts per channel I believe, then it switches to AB. It is a beast, but the volume control was not nearly as nice feeling or adjustable as the Audio-Gd Master11's implemenation of a super exponential 100 step relay controlled volume. Similar, but not linear, more steps, smoother, no feedback issues etc etc.
  
  
 I've tested some very sensitive IEM's on it with no issues. The volume control is quite nice.

16000MW /  25 ohm 

8000MW /  50 ohm 

 4000MW  /  100 ohm

1300MW / 300 ohm

650 MW / 600 ohm
  
  
1ohm headphone output and 19V output (balanced)
I opted to get the +6db gain option, for a total of +22db gain. tons of headroom, even for an HE-6 the standard +16db is plenty.
  
  
beastly? some are running speakers from it that are >95 db efficient. direct from the dual 3pin XLR's from the front.  
  
I was the second person to order the master11 from audio-gd. I just got it at the last meet when Atomic Bob grabbed that headphone cable from me @ the library meet a few months back.  New stuff, but somewhat like a Master 9 and Master 7 together in one.


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> The issue I have with using power to decide suitability of matching amp to electro-acoustic driver is that it doesn't sufficiently describe the necessary parameters. One driver may require high voltage and low current to perform optimally. Another may want the opposite, low voltage and high current. Yet both might have the same power required. I will attach a graph in another post demonstrating the needs of various popular headphones. Using the published nominal impedance and sensitivity for the HE-6 would require 50 mW to achieve 100 dB SPL average with 500 mW for 110 dB SPL peaks, assuming a 10 dB crest factor in the recording. But what the HE-6 really wants is 14Vpp with 100mA peak to hit the 110 dB SPL without strain.
> 
> 
> <edit> I forgot to answer the question. I think the PSIII would be marginal at best for the HE-6 unless one listens at lower sound levels. My experience at meets is most listening to planars also listen VERY LOUD. Thus the discrepancy in adequacy of a given amp for a given listener. I probably could use the PSIII for an HE-6. I listen at 75 ~ 85 dB SPL in a quiet environment. Most others would find the PSIII inadequate and even the Asgard2 inadequate to achieve 110 dB SPL avg with peaks to 120 dB that I observe them listening. I built a SPL meter dummy head to quickly verify where listeners set their auditioning sound levels in my acoustic lab. It is based on the work of Joop Nijenhuis Headphone sound level meter.


 

 Thank you for the explanations and the formulas. Very helpful.
  
 I think PSIII is unlikely to drive HE-6 with ease, and Garage1217 markets Project Ember II instead for such heavy duty. Given the price point, this seems like a very attractive proposition. In the Schiit stable, Ragnarok seems to fit the bill, but it gets to the $1.7K price point. The advantage of Ragnarok is that it could also be used with speakers like the KEF LS50.


----------



## bimmer100

landroni said:


> Thank you for the explanations and the formulas. Very helpful.
> 
> I think PSIII is unlikely to drive HE-6 with ease, and Garage1217 markets Project Ember II instead for such heavy duty. Given the price point, this seems like a very attractive proposition. In the Schiit stable, Ragnarok seems to fit the bill, but it gets to the $1.7K price point. The advantage of Ragnarok is that it could also be used with speakers like the KEF LS50.




There is a guy powering his kef LS50's with the master11 who is on the headfi thread for the m11. Just fine. I got my m11 for 1.7K and it has a pretty good DAC with it too  so maybe it's not perfect since it's not made in the USA and some will turn their nose up at chi-fi. But I know kingwa takes care of his employees considering it's a Chinese company. I own two audio-gd products. master11 and nfb28(2015 edition) and used to own the dac19 10th aniv.(sweet Dac before the big upgrade to m11) my next Dac may be a Rockna Wavedream Signature (dreaming ) if I was rich.


Sorry for getting off topic a bit. I am very interested in learning more about amps and psu's. Certainly want to find a tube amp that can power a wide variety of cans, and do it well. 
I have a pair of he1000's from Sergio right now, and a pair of hd800's from Ryan, I'm doing a bit of testing on my m11 with them. I am interested to try out the editionX hifiman's if they sound like the he1000. I like how natural the HEK's sound, but the price is insane imho. But the editionX might be possible. Both the hd800 and he1000 sound incredibly good yet also quite different. Has anyone heard the editionX's? I'm hoping they sound the same as the he1000. The he1000 is a tad more efficient than my he560's and I do like that. The hd800's are really easy to drive yet the soundstage is great yet hard to get used to. I don't like the comfort levels of the hd800's imho. Nor do I like the heft of the he1000's. I am guessing the editionX will be comfy like the he1000, yet not heavy! So it should be ideal... For me. The hd800's feel cheap as if they would break easily, yet the sound quality makes up for that. Some may not care for my opinion, but it's hard to say anything bad about these headphones. Honestly.

Would the project sunrise III be able to power the he560 to 100db maybe even 110db? I really like these headphones and figure the he1000 and editionX would be able to be powered if the the he560 can. I "might" consider an upgrade in the future. A DIY kit for the psIII sounds interesting to me. I need to just listen to one


----------



## johnjen

bimmer100 said:


> snip
> 
> Would the project sunrise III be able to power the he560 to 100db maybe even 110db? I really like these headphones and figure the he1000 and editionX would be able to be powered if the the he560 can. I "might" consider an upgrade in the future. A DIY kit for the psIII sounds interesting to me. I need to just listen to one



According to the power output vs. impedance graph of the PSIII and using the 1.5Ω output setting this amp delivers ≈ 750mW.
And according to atomicbob's graph, your he560 cans 'need' 10mW to 100mW (100dB to 110dB SPL respectively).
So reaching 100dB should be no problem.

However the sunrise can only output ≈ 5.4 volts MAX (and that rating is into no load).
They don't specify if that voltage is P-P or RMS, but the Horizon amp rates this voltage as RMS so it probably has enough headroom to reach the 110dB range.

However if you want plenty of 'extra' headroom, the sunrise probably won't provide it, nor will it power more hungry HP's to 110dB+ levels (where the peaks of the music exist).

JJ


----------



## bimmer100

johnjen said:


> According to the power output vs. impedance graph of the PSIII and using the 1.5Ω output setting this amp delivers ≈ 750mW.
> And according to atomicbob's graph, your he560 cans 'need' 10mW to 100mW (100dB to 110dB SPL respectively).
> So reaching 100dB should be no problem.
> 
> ...


 
  
 well I have the HE1000 and HD800 now, as well as the Oppo PM3 and HE560...boy would it be nice to try the PSIII and just hear for myself. HAH.
 i would imagine the HE1000 would sound slightly better on the PSIII than the HE560. The volume levels on my M11 vary slightly when I listen. probably about 6-8 steps less with the HE1000. But not really relevant I suppose. Just that the HE1000 doesnt need as much power to sound amazing. So far I prefer the HE1000 quite a bit over the HD800. Albeit i've never heard an HD800 sound this good. I've listened to them on a ROK/YGG before, ZanaDuex and I think they sound better on my setup.  I guess I have other gripes about the HD800's. But overall they are a pretty nice headphone.  Neither of the flagships are perfect though. 
  
  
 I would want a PSIII for work most likely, or just a secondary listening station in the living room. I just need to find a pair of headphones I like to pair with them. I really do want to have a good affordable tube amp.


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> Here is a table comparing the Vrms, Vpp, Ima and Power to achieve 100 dB SPL average and 110 dB SPL peak for various popular headphone, based on published specifications and nominal impedances. This ignores any impedance bumps a given headphone driver may have.


 

 Looking at the chart it's obvious that compared to other flagships the HE6 is aeons behind in terms of driveability, yet the Hifiman is often revered as reference SQ. KEF's LS50 is also horrifyingly inefficient with 85dB/mW, but it too gives outstanding SQ given its price point.
  
 Is there some engineering trade-off that makes such inefficient transducers output incredible SQ? And if so, why aren't other manufacturers making use of the trick?


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 6 Feel the POWER, luke…

Acoustic POWER vs volume*
Musicians often say our playback systems just aren’t the same as what they experience…

Why?

My answer is that the instantaneous acoustic power of an instrument IS what the musician hears.
It’s not simply frequency response or just simple dynamics, it’s the air being vibrated by a device that is designed to do just that.

Musical instruments MOVE air.

This requires POWER.
And HOW that power is distributed (how much acoustic power at this frequency and increment of time vs. how much at this other frequency and slice of time) as it vibrates the acoustic space IS what we hear. The resonances and harmonic series created by each instrument IS the ‘identity’ of that instrument, it’s ’signature’, if you will.

We use SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meters to measure and tell us how loud it is.
But WHAT we are really measuring is sound PRESSURE, and pressure is a measure of power, as in movement of ’stuff’ (the air) over a unit of time (frequency).

And how well our playback systems deliver acoustic power, power that accurately matches the original power signature, is a measure of how accurate and precise the playback system truly is.

We can attribute this to dynamics or a balanced frequency response or many other aspects, but really it comes down to acoustic power as it is applied in precise and sometimes minute amounts for the entire frequency spectrum and perhaps more importantly to ONLY apply power where it is ’supposed’ to be. 

When it’s creation and delivery is not controlled enough such that it ‘spills over’ and gets smeared thru time we hear this as Listener Fatigue. This smearing of the re-created acoustic power causes much distortion and makes our acoustic experience less ‘real’ as a result.
But the single ‘biggest’ difference is in the amount (or lack) of power that is experienced and specifically how well that re-created power is aligned to its source and presented to our ears.
Which is why musicians repeatedly state ‘It isn’t the same’.

Our playback systems often lack this degree of coupling and instantaneous power delivery, in the same manner that a ‘natural’ acoustic instrument will.
IOW we can turn the volume (*DRC*) up but without this coupling and the proper timing of the power as it is applied to our re-created signal, all we get is LOUD, which just might be another way of describing Listener Fatigue.

Another interesting observation I made during these experiments was that as the *tLFF* was improved and as I could crank up the *DRC* to greater amounts before discomfort kicked in, I noticed the perception that the SPL had been reduced at any particular *DRC* setting.
IOW the volume seemed to drop at any given setting of the *DRC* as *tLFF* was improved due to a ‘Better’ alignment of the acoustical power.
Which in turn meant that the acoustical energy that was presented to me was due to a more coupled signal which resulted in the perception of a lower SPL.

I attribute this observed change in volume to a reduced amount of smearing of the acoustic power being presented to me.
IOW the dynamic peaks were ‘peakier’ and the low level dynamics were lower as well, with less acoustic power being smeared. or ‘wasted’.

And let me be clear in my use of the term “discomfort”.
I do NOT mean pain, of any sort, kind or type.
Discomfort is when I detect any form of irritation WAY before any sort of pain threshold is even approached.

So, when the inherent acoustic power that defines an instrument is optimized during its re-creation and then delivered to our ears, this coupling of the acoustic power to and with us, can become magical.
IOW when we experience such a degree of coupling to the music we like, there is this thing that can happen.

I call it a *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) and it is an experience that is simply unforgettable.
It can provide the individual a degree of ‘calibration’ with what is possible in terms of how ‘real’ a musical experience truly can be.
I’ll go more into this in a later post.

Suffice it to say, the totality of this level of musical experience is beyond words as it encompasses and immerses us IN the music.

JJ


*End Part 6 
Next up - Jitter, it’s not just the coffee anymore.*


----------



## Barra

JJ Special Power Cable Update: After having my new JJ envisioned power cables for a few months now, the enriched SQ has become the norm so I have been afraid to A/B the difference. Per JJ's request, I did just that and wow, there is no going back. In general, the feeling was somewhat like using my DAP with my BH2 amp added for more dynamics, bigger sound stage, better texturing, etc. and then trying to go directly from my DAP without the amp. It just sounds small and lifeless now. I have to turn up the volumes to painful levels to try to get the expected details so listening becomes fatiguing. It is the same thing in my desktop and full sized speaker setup.
  
 A new discovery downstairs in the entertainment center with my new power cable. My 1-year old loves to use the cables going to my receiver to pull himself up and to play with the entertainment center buttons - which is constantly disabling my setup. Unknown to me, he disabled my dual subs which is usually pretty obvious. However, this time I couldn't tell until a bass head song came on that was under powered in the 10 to 20 hertz frequency range. Upon investigation, my subs were not playing, but the Maggies were moving strong air in the 40 to 60 hertz range that was very sub like. The Maggies typically roll off at about 80 hertz with most frequencies under being inaudible - hence the need to pair with dual subs. Being mid focused and with a huge diafram, they don't typically move air like a smaller traditional speaker, they create lifelike frequency resonances the simulate a real environment. Now they are moving strong air at lower frequencies. Switching the power cable out on the amp for fun, this goes away. I have to say that this is a huge improvement in the Maggie performance. When I get time to figure out the subs, I may have to dial them down to balance out the system or it may just be more fun like it is. Can't wait to figure this one out.
  
*Conclusion *- power cables make a difference!


----------



## nedifer

barra said:


> JJ Special Power Cable Update: After having my new JJ envisioned power cables for a few months now, the enriched SQ has become the norm so I have been afraid to A/B the difference.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


 
 Which power cables are you using?
  
 On that note, I have been eyeing the offerings by Cullen Cable (http://www.cullencable.com/) as inexpensive alternatives to the eye-watering mainstream cables out there but even his modest prices are a stretch at this point with two small kids in the budget mix.  Does anyone have any experience with inexpensive offerings they can share?
  
 Nedifer


----------



## Barra

nedifer said:


> barra said:
> 
> 
> > JJ Special Power Cable Update: After having my new JJ envisioned power cables for a few months now, the enriched SQ has become the norm so I have been afraid to A/B the difference.
> ...


 
 These are DIY that JJ helped me with that are standard Home Depot copper - don't know the guage or ends, that are cooked and cryoed. JJ can fill us in on the specifics.


----------



## johnjen

These cables are made using the BottleHead ac power cable 'design', I just used better materials, (all cooper 16awg TFFN wires, and cheap chinese knock off rhodium cable connectors). 
And I cryo'd them and then cooked the cables on an industrial strength cable cooker (not a cd playing thru the system).

This combination of stuff and treatment was the first truly spectacular set of cables I had with my system and they remain a reference to judge other cables by to this day.

If memory serves the cost of materials is like under $50/cable with the cryo treatment adding ≈ $40± and the cooking can be big bucks (mostly because of the cost of the cooker (≈$1K), unless you know someone who has a cooker, like me… :atsmile:


JJ


----------



## johnjen

nedifer said:


> Which power cables are you using?
> 
> On that note, I have been eyeing the offerings by Cullen Cable (http://www.cullencable.com/) as inexpensive alternatives to the eye-watering mainstream cables out there but even his modest prices are a stretch at this point with two small kids in the budget mix.  Does anyone have any experience with inexpensive offerings they can share?
> 
> Nedifer


Another cable company that has my attention, and no I have not listened to their cables, is
http://www.blacksandaudio.net/power-cords/

Yes their prices are higher but they are 'treating' their cables much in the same way I do for the cables I now use.

If I were to sum up in a single concept what seems to be most important, it would be to lower the thruput resistance for the entire cable.
From the duplex receptacle thru to the IEC connector on the back of the amp, dac, etc.
IOW it's not just the cable itself but the ability of the cable to pass current as 'efficiently' as possible to the load, whatever it is.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 7  ‘Jitter’, it’s not just the coffee anymore.*

The last post was a short one, this however is another long one, so we’re diving into the deep end of the pool again.

*‘Jitter’ *
This is not a technical analysis of Jitter plots nor a ‘scientific’ examination of what Jitter is, nor what it isn’t.
Instead I’m going to delve into what *‘Jitter’ * is and what I have come to understand its effects and influences are, 
AS I HEAR THEM!

Jitter, we all know it’s ‘bad’ to have too much (any?) Jitter in our digital playback system. But is ‘real’ Jitter limited to just the digital domain exclusively?
I submit that *‘Jitter’ *is more than just a digital timing ‘error’ during the sequential re-construction process, indeed I find this to be only 1/2 of the ‘total’ picture.

I submit, at least for this ‘Better” series, that a definition that what we call *‘Jitter’ *is ANY resultant error (deviation) during the re-construction of (from) the ‘original’ acoustic waveform signal. This definition encompasses both ‘Domains’ (analog & digital) and ‘Dimensions’ (frequency/time & voltage/amplitude) needed to re-construct and deliver the original ‘target’ signal. 
I come to this conclusion based upon lots of observation and fussing with the knobs (experimentation).
But I also submit that *‘Jitter’*, is in a sense, a displacement ‘error’ away from the perfect re-construction of the original wave form.

Perhaps another term could be introduced such as smear, or re-construction deviation, etc. But for now I’m going to stick to *‘Jitter’*, mostly because the audible effects of reducing any of these errors results in near identical audible improvements, regardless of which ‘Dimension’ or which ‘Domain’ is being improved. And it’s these same audible consequences which I have come to identify and define as to what *‘Jitter’* is and what we can expect as any amount of *‘Jitter’ * is reduced.

All of these various sub-sets of *‘Jitter’* have a unique variation for how *‘Jitter’ *is introduced into the signal we hear.
And really we as audiophools can only affect Jitter reduction in rather limited ways. Sure we can buy new pieces of equipment, but other than that all we can change is the setup of the system, which includes the cables, and the ac power we feed the equipment, and more. And fortunately these sorts of changes can result in significant sonic improvements which have sonic characteristics that match other improvements made to improve Jitter directly, which is why I have come to equate all of these improvements to ‘standard’ digital Jitter.

So Domains, Dimensions?
What?
Let me explain a bit further…
And for the sake of this "Better" series I categorize our audio systems thusly…

*DOMAINS*
Currently there are 2 ‘domains’ of signal re-creation methodologies in our playback systems, 
analog (tape, vinyl, radio) 
and digital (CD’s, DVD’s, digital files from a computer or server).
And as indicated above most don’t associate analog with*‘Jitter’*, since the term was introduced with DACs, but I hear the affects *‘Jitter’ *has in both of these types of 'Domains'.

*DIMENSIONS*
The 2 ‘dimensions’ of (frequency/time) & (voltage/amplitude) (think of an FFT display and a signal trace on an ‘O’scope) are both necessary aspects of any musical signal.
The frequency & voltage pair applies more to the analog ‘Domain’, while the time & amplitude applies more to the digital ‘Domain’. But these aren’t hard and fast associations, by any means.

In the analog ‘Domain’ the signal is based upon a real time complex dynamic analog signal (voltage), with what we usually term as phase shift (frequency) anomalies due to the nature of the circuits and the physics and the properties of the materials used, and of course the setup of the equipment etc.

In the analog ‘Domain’ we have seen a significant increase in the development of power supply sophistication with multiple layers and levels of regulation and control. And this technique is ‘generously’ applied to the digital circuitry used in dacs and other signal processing equipment.
But not exclusively.

And in the digital ‘Domain’ we have been hearing of and seeing developments of femto-second clocks in the push or attempts to obtain the optimal degree of precision, repeatability, and reproducibility in the time axis ‘Dimension’ of the equation. 

I have heard the results of the reduction of digital Jitter made to the incoming digital stream and have ‘categorized’ these improvements in a descriptive narrative.
In the digital ‘Domain’, where timing is it’s ‘thing’, we find that as the degree of exact precision of the timing increases, the results, in complex ways, can be quite audible, but again these sonic changes/improvements are very similar to those where the power supplies ability to delivery precisely the correct voltage is also improved.

So these timing/voltage/frequency/amplitude improvements all share similar sonic characteristics when they are improved or where ‘choke points’ that are associated with them are improved.

And these very same audible changes/improvements are also brought about via, albeit more indirectly, ac power system delivery changes/improvements. And some of these changes are from ‘non-ordinary’ sources as most would view them.
IOW as ‘choke points’ that affect both the domains and dimensions are improved/removed, the acoustical net results have very similar sonic consequences.

So next we will delve a bit deeper in the signal re-creation modes AND the signal delivery modes, and look at how they overlap.

*Analog signal creation*
Is your phono cartridge diamond tip in THE groove? or just sorta close? 
And can you tell when it ‘drops into’ THE groove?
When the diamond tip doesn’t read the groove exactly as it was created, time smearing is the result due to not being in phase and ‘correctly’ reading the original cut in the groove in ‘real time’.
A ‘proper’ read of the groove, that matches the line that was cut by the cutting head, can result in a near *‘Jitter’ *free analog signal with little to no timing (phase) nor amplitude (voltage) ‘errors’, assuming the rest of the system is up to the task.

This is a tall order, to be able to ‘nail’ reading the one and only correct portion of the groove, in real time, despite the physical variables of LP thickness, or warpage, or lack of ‘flatness’ or eccentricity, etc. of every record. Not to mention the additional variables of cartridge tip to body alignment, as well as ‘ideal’ cantilever ‘sag’ and the aging of the cantilever mounting viscoelastic material, among other factors.

This difficulty, in (mis)reading the groove, translates into timing and amplitude errors with respect to transferring the physical waveform from the groove wall into an identical mirror image electrical signal. Any deviation of this waveform from the ‘original’ is *‘Jitter’* as I have described it above.

*Digital signal creation*
Traditional Jitter (the strictly digital kind) exists as a frequency or time dimension ‘error’.
(Yes it’s more complicated than this simplified metric, but it will suffice for this write up.)
But I submit that *‘Jitter’* exists in 2 'Dimensions' (time/frequency) & (voltage/amplitude) and extends into a 3rd element, (‘real time’) as an additional factor.

So really, what is the usual understanding of Jitter? and where does it come from?
But first lets take a quick look at digital circuits.
Digital circuits are just optimized analog circuits that get triggered to ‘go off’ (or on) as ideally as possible.
And since they are operated in a sequential fashion, the sequencing itself becomes yet another issue, at least for dac’s anyway.
So they ‘switch’ to the ‘next’ state as quickly, precisely, and repeatably as possible.
But they also need to ’stabilize’ at that ‘new’ state with equal (or better) quickness, precision, and repeatability.
So we need ‘good’ fast, clean, noise free switches (the time domain) and we need a power supply that mirrors with equal quickness, precision, and repeatability as it delivers the exact voltage (the voltage domain) thru the switch(es) which then becomes the analog signal.

Put another way, the timing variability of the master clock as it is used to trigger the switch(es) to ‘dump’ (add) the precise voltage supplied by the power supply distribution system which is used to re-create the exact amplitude at that exact time, is what is being improved to more precisely mirror the original analog signal.
To me this is why we have Jitter in the first place, as it’s a means of describing how to ‘measure’ the time/frequency deviations in this re-creation process which along with the other variable(s) play a critical role in the re-creation process.

And the 3rd element is to perform this re-construction process, without deviation, with this same degree of precision, repeatability and reproducibility, dynamically, in real time, continually.

And then once we have re-created this signal we need to ‘move it along’, and then ‘present’ it to our ears. This is where the wires and other ac power supply systems come into play, along with the rest of the setup of the entire system.

*Analog signal delivery*
Many are VERY familiar with the possibility and results of changing the sound by changing both the power and signal cables. A great many theories abound and are bandied about, with relish by some.

And in my experience cables can alter the analog signal voltages that pass the musical signal along, and so can the power cables used by the components themselves. And in many cases these changes reflect the same sonic effects heard as does reducing *‘Jitter’*, which can increase the overall quality of the sound we hear.
There are many factors such as slew rate, phase shift, signal propagation down the wires (and in some cases return signal reflections), ampacity of the cables and many more widely known factors all of which can have audible effects.

*Digital signal delivery*
Strangely enough digital cabling does (or can) make an audible difference. And beyond just the crude, ‘does the music skip or hiccup’, digital signal transfer from one device to another can be effected by ones choice of cabling. And I know according to some, cables, especially digital signal cables shouldn’t make ANY differences.
Except that’s not what I’m hearing, but that isn’t the full extent of all of the improvements made from seemingly unlikely or ‘impossible’ sources.

IOW whether it’s improving the timing of the delivery of the digital signal to its destination, or improving the delivery of the ac power pulses to the power supply, or transferring the analog signal from an output stage to an input stage of the next device, reducing the time and amplitude ‘errors’ of these signals results in audible improvements which have remarkably similar net sonic effects.
And in some cases, the mutual beneficial interaction between associated gear can sound like analog coloration shifts, which was quite a surprise when I first encountered it.

What I am hearing in most cases due to these reductions of *‘Jitter’* are those very attributes I have already brought up and described in my previous missives. Namely …
Small Signal Dynamics (which most are already familiar with)
C3 (Cohesion – Coherence – Coupling),
T3 (Toe Tapping Time),
HB&W (Head Bobbing & Weaving),
Spooky/Scary,
& more.

As my experiments continued, all of these attributes tightened up, came into sharper focus, produced greater resolution at each level and also influenced each other in a holistic fashion (sympathetically), all the while the musical performance continued to become all the more compelling.  The net result was an ever increasing sense of realism, palpability, and reduction in my sense of disbelief (it became harder to nit pick). 
Which is nearly the same description I used after I heard the digital Jitter reduced at the DAC.
Only more so.

It seems as though as further improvements are made, as the ‘choke points’ are eliminated, or their severity reduced such that they no longer act as a primary sound quality limiter, the cumulative benefits add up to more than just the sum of the constituent parts.  New intonations and harmonically related aspects of each ‘voice’ ’snap’ into place, and the complete tonality of the ‘voice’ becomes much more evident.
In short there,
IS…
MOAR,
there, there.

It’s like tweaking any system.
As the roughest edge’s are smoothed, the greatest amounts of change/improvements are noted first.
As additional improvements are made, as the remaining ‘choke points’ are further reduced/eliminated, the degree of change may not be as great but the overall level of SQ keeps increasing with greater degrees of resolution and efficiency, all with reduced ‘error’.
This can have unexpected results in terms of hearing additional sonic nuances that have Never been noticed before.
IOW it’s like hearing your music anew, again.

Or put another way, as the total accumulation of ‘error’ continues to be reduced, and more of the original re-created signal is ‘allowed’ to be presented to our ears, the greater the degree of satisfaction is experienced with more of the creativity of the musical intent being heard.

Or think of it like looking thru a telescope, or microscope, or binoculars. 
As the view comes more and more into focus ALL of the details become obvious and immediately apparent as to what they are (shadow?, reflection?, etc) what they belong to (what IS the parent object?), how they belong within the view of what is seen (the nature of the relationships), and more precise 3d spatial relationships come into better focus (in front or behind? bigger or smaller, by how much?), how sharp is the ‘outline’ of each object (how precise are its optical limits?)
And more…

And further, as the optics are improved even more, (as the overall system’s resolution increases) and the distortions (error’s) in the field of view (presentation) are reduced or eliminated still further, the changes to and additional available information that result from these improvements, means there is more there, there.
And what there is there, is all the more apparent and obvious.

JJ

*End Part 7 
Next up,
Getting Calibrated and CNST*


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> *Digital signal delivery*
> Strangely enough digital cabling does (or can) make an audible difference. And beyond just the crude, ‘does the music skip or hiccup’, digital signal transfer from one device to another can be effected by ones choice of cabling. And I know according to some, cables, especially digital signal cables shouldn’t make ANY differences.





> IOW whether it’s improving the timing of the delivery of the digital signal to its destination, or improving the delivery of the ac power pulses to the power supply, or transferring the analog signal from an output stage to an input stage of the next device, reducing the time and amplitude ‘errors’ of these signals results in audible improvements which have remarkably similar net sonic effects.


 

 I suspect that the key to this conundrum is _throughput_ performance: do all the bits get to the destination _in time_ for D/A conversion, or not?
  
 To use the somewhat unrelated example of television, most of us are familiar with the difficulties of analogue TV: when there are interferences along the network (e.g. a storm), the image on your TV set may get grainy, but even so the signal is almost always passing "in full" (i.e. you can always see "something" decipherable). In countries that have made the switch from analogue to digital television, however, most everyone has experienced a much more horrid experience when there are interferences along the network: the image that you are getting may not be watchable at all. When this happens the audio either mutes or becomes a cacophony of garbled, periodically reproduced strident sounds; whereas the video appears as 1/4th of the top-right screen now, 1/6th of the bottom-left screen in 2sec, 1/2 of the screen in one second further, etc., and all else in green or black. Basically, the delivery of bits (prior to the DAC!) is COMPLETELY broken down. The throughput performance is zilch for all practical purposes.
  
 And it should not really matter if ALL the bits get delivered and checksumed "at some point", since some bits will be delivered late. Generally TV is bound by time constraints (as is listening to audio), and once the moment for displaying a particular frame is passed, it's passed for good. Bits that get lost for any reason and are not delivered in time do not make the cut, and at that moment the DAC must decide whether it converts and displays something (e.g. replacing undelivered bits with 0s) or nothing at all (e.g. displaying black screen until hopefully the signal improves, and then retry). Dropped packages can happen for a variety of reasons, not least for exceeding real, available bandwidth.
  
 If these issues can happen in the digital domain in such dramatic fashion (with obvious conscious effects), then it is not at all inconceivable that similar yet more subtle "delivery timing" difficulties arise elsewhere in digital applications (with potentially less easily noticeable, and perhaps subconscious effects). "Bits are bits" when timing is of no urgency, as when downloading a file: if bits (packages) are delayed or lost, the user can wait until they're delivered/re-fetched and checksums performed. However waiting is not a luxury available in instantaneous video/audio applications. When timing is critical, as all of us have experienced at least once in their lives when streaming videos on the internet, bits can get lost, buffers depleted, and the instantaneous video/audio experience may pause or even break down.
  
 Here's what FiiO mentions in one of their manuals:
_"1. For desktop computers, connect the X3 to a USB port on the rear of the case, not the
 front. This is because front USB ports on desktop computers are connected to the
 motherboard via long unshielded cables. As a result, front USB ports have low power
 output, low transfer speeds and are prone to electrical interference, degrading sound
 quality or causing crackling / dropouts._
  
_2.__When the X3 is decoding 192k/24bit audio via USB, the required data throughput is
 huge. A high quality USB cable, with low signal loss and good shielding, is required.
 Please use the original USB cable provided with the X3 if possible. If you need to
 purchase another cable, please do not buy generic USB cables (including cables
 provided with most smartphones), but buy USB-to-micro-USB cables from a reputable
 brand supporting the USB2.0 standard." (emphasis mine)_
  
 Hardly a discourse suggestive of "bits are bits" and "all USB cables are the same"...


----------



## ETanner

As I'm reading through these recent posts (and looking around at unused cables) I wondered for the first time what differences are built into interconnects that may share the same connectors but are marketed for different applications. 

Are their differences between dual audio RCA interconnects and, say, those packaged in threes for composite video? Are they interchangeable back and forth, video to audio, or not at all?


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> I suspect that the key to this conundrum is _throughput_ performance: do all the bits get to the destination _in time_ for D/A conversion, or not?
> 
> BIG snipperdoodles
> 
> Hardly a discourse suggestive of "bits are bits" and "all USB cables are the same"...



Another aspect that I didn't bring up, mainly due to the pre-existing girth of part 7, was that of the transceiver chips at each end of a digital transmission line 'System' and their role as data 'interpreters'.

In analog transmission 'Systems' the bandwidth is fairly low and some what wide which means the range of the length of the standing waves and reflection of the signal is also fairly long in comparison to a digital signal.
There is also the added influence of the magnitude of the harmonic content (in contrast to the actual signal itself) difference between an analog vs. digital signal.

Digital signals being square waves introduce plenty of odd order harmonics and generally they tend to be rather similar to the original signal wave form. This can make the 'job' that the transceiver chip performs more difficult and when coupled with impedance mismatches between the chips brought on by the cable, can 'complicate' the transceivers 'job' of differentiating the signal from the noise.
Which in turn makes the transceiver chip 'work harder' at separating the 'real' signal from the rest of the electrical input it sees.
This 'work harder' aspect may be a significant contribution to the throughput performance in that it may contribute more power supply noise in the digital portion of the circuit.
Granted we are talking about small amounts of added noise but then the effects we are hear are also small.
Well unless these 'noise' influences become big enough to disrupt the flow of information and we get pauses, and hiccups etc.

So the 'quality' of the USB cable in terms of matching its impedance to the design expectations of the transceiver chips so they don't have to 'work harder', in the first place, may be a factor here as well.
This impedance matching applies not only to USB, but ethernet, AES/EBU, and other digital transmission line type of data delivery systems.

IOW the cable plugs into and connects two transceiver chips (one at each end) which both transmit and receive data packets interchangeably. How the chips 'deal with' the various electrical and signal characteristics, in real time, and especially in the USB realm where audio and video present very different requirements (ie. real time streaming) to what its original design intent was, also adds more complexity to this already complex situation. 

So it may not be the cable itself but how well it plays with the transceiver chips that 'drive' the cable that interact with each other over the cable we use.

Just more food for thought.

JJ
ps transmission lines and what is involved, is a whole nuther complex subject unto itself.


----------



## johnjen

etanner said:


> As I'm reading through these recent posts (and looking around at unused cables) I wondered for the first time what differences are built into interconnects that may share the same connectors but are marketed for different applications.
> 
> Are their differences between dual audio RCA interconnects and, say, those packaged in threes for composite video? Are they interchangeable back and forth, video to audio, or not at all?


Video cables are designed to handle the higher frequency range and narrower bandwidth than audio.
This isn't to say they won't work, but to work optimally, as in delivering the audio signal intact and with the least amount of 'change', probably not.

And depending upon the degree of resolution the audio system has, using video cables in an audio system may not make much of a change.
But then the one sure way to find out is to try them and listen to determine if they are satisfactory.
Or not.

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> Another aspect that I didn't bring up, mainly due to the pre-existing girth of part 7, was that of the transceiver chips at each end of a digital transmission line 'System' and their role as data 'interpreters'.
> 
> [...]
> So the 'quality' of the USB cable in terms of matching its impedance to the design expectations of the transceiver chips so they don't have to 'work harder', in the first place, may be a factor here as well.
> This impedance matching applies not only to USB, but ethernet, AES/EBU, and other digital transmission line type of data delivery systems.


 

  
 In practice, how would one attempt to match impedance of transceivers and digital cables, say USB or coaxial?

  
 I've never encountered impedance being stated as a spec for USB cables (although coaxial cables are often rated for 75 Ohm), let alone for digital receivers... For instance if I look at the specs page for the USB Input Receiver in Yggy, C-Media CM6632, there don't seem to be any impedance-related specifications.
  
 PS On the other hand, Audio GD's Master 7 specs, indicate "0.5 Vp-p ( 75 Ohms, Coaxial )" as input sensitivity. It seems like coaxial cables/receivers are often better matched.


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> In practice, how would one attempt to match impedance of transceivers and digital cables, say USB or coaxial?
> 
> I've never encountered impedance being stated as a spec for USB cables (although coaxial cables are often rated for 75 Ohm), let alone for digital receivers... For instance if I look at the specs page for the USB Input Receiver in Yggy, C-Media CM6632, there don't seem to be any impedance-related specifications.
> 
> PS On the other hand, Audio GD's Master 7 specs, indicate "0.5 Vp-p ( 75 Ohms, Coaxial )" as input sensitivity. It seems like coaxial cables/receivers are often better matched.



I have been looking into the impedance issue as it relates to USB and ran across this…
_"Signaling (excerpt from the USB 'standards')
USB signals are transmitted using differential signaling on a twisted-pair data cable with 90 Ω ± 15% characteristic impedance."_

Basically a USB cable is a differential signal pathway that acts like a 'tuned' load to the transceivers for them to 'properly' drive.
Sorta like matching the speaker impedance taps on a tube amp with output transformers.

My question, and one I doubt has been asked let alone answered is, will making the cables impedance match the 90Ω impedance (±1% not ±15%) make any difference.
I'm guessing that it will, and this spec may be a key as to why some cheap USB cables work 'better' than others.

And true enough I have not seen any cable manufacturers list their rated impedance for their USB cables.
Most likely due to the cost and complexity of dealing with this 'sticky' issue, which is not an issue if it remains 'unknown'.

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> My question, and one I doubt has been asked let alone answered is, will making the cables impedance match the 90Ω impedance (±1% not ±15%) make any difference.
> I'm guessing that it will, and this spec may be a key as to why some cheap USB cables work 'better' than others.


 
 Here's what usb.org tells us:
 http://www.usb.org/developers/usbfaq#sig6
_"What characteristic impedances should I design for in laying out my USB device's traces?_
_A: 30 ohms to ground, 90 ohms differential between the USB data lines. Be aware that many differential impedance formulas don't take into account the presence of a plane next to the data lines and tend to overestimate the reduction in single-ended impedance due to coupling between the two lines. For typical buried microstrips on spacings FR4 stackups the USB traces should be somewhere around 11 or 12mils wide with roughly a 33mil edge to edge spacing (45mils center to center). This is far enough apart that there's almost no coupling between the lines---the single-ended impedance is around 1.5O lower than what a single trace's impedance would be._
  
  
_But the maximum allowable termination is 44 ohms! A 28 ohm termination is also within spec. Why?_
_A: USB termination requirements are quite lenient. For example, a 0 to 3.6V signal input into a 51.75 ohm line with a 28 ohm source termination will swing between 4.6 and -1.0V-this is where the voltage levels in figure 7-1 of the USB 1.1 spec come from. In practice, most USB devices are underterminated, sometimes incorrectly.
 The IF recommends sizing the series termination resistors to create a 44 ohm termination. While not enough to perfectly terminate the device when its connected to an ideal cable, it does bring the terminations well within the standard ±15% impedance tolerance-most modern processes are well controlled, so the internal impedance of USB drivers is quite consistent from wafer to wafer. It is, of course, wise to characterize the drivers' impedance range and perform sampling of production parts."_
  
 Clearly there is such a thing as an ideal USB cable.


----------



## johnjen

I recently contacted Shunyata Research about this very issue and they kindly sent me some info for further research.
This was the document he referred to…
IEC 62680 USB 2.0 (Universal Serial Bus interfaces for data and power). 
This was the text from a section he sent me…

_Cabling (excerpt)
The data cables for USB 1.x and USB 2.x use a twisted pair to reduce noise and crosstalk. 
The USB 1.1 standard specifies that a standard cable can have a maximum length of 5 meters with devices operating at Full Speed (12 Mbit/s), and a maximum length of 3 meters with devices operating at Low Speed (1.5 Mbit/s).

"USB 2.0 provides for a maximum cable length of 5 meters for devices running at Hi Speed (480 Mbit/s). The primary reason for this limit is the maximum allowed round-trip delay of about 1.5 μs. If USB host commands are unanswered by the USB device within the allowed time, the host considers the command lost. When adding USB device response time, delays from the maximum number of hubs added to the delays from connecting cables, the maximum acceptable delay per cable amounts to 26 ns. The USB 2.0 specification requires that cable delay be less than 5.2 ns per meter (192 000 km/s, which is close to the maximum achievable transmission speed for standard copper wire).The USB 3.0 standard does not directly specify a maximum cable length, requiring only that all cables meet an electrical specification: for copper cabling with AWG 26 wires the maximum practical length is 3 meters (9.8 ft)."

*Signaling* (excerpt)
USB signals are transmitted using differential signaling on a twisted-pair data cable with 90 Ω ± 15% characteristic impedance._

I have yet to search for the source document, it is on my list of things to do.

JJ


----------



## gefski

landroni said:


> PS On the other hand, Audio GD's Master 7 specs, indicate "0.5 Vp-p ( 75 Ohms, Coaxial )" as input sensitivity. It seems like coaxial cables/receivers are often better matched.


 

My understanding is that cable-wise, it's real easy (& cheap) to make a coax with "perfect" 75 ohm impedance end to end, with BNCs on each end (like the one you had at the meet, JJ). But as soon as one uses an RCA adaptor or even a direct connection RCA, it gets "fouled up".


----------



## landroni

gefski said:


> My understanding is that cable-wise, it's real easy (& cheap) to make a coax with "perfect" 75 ohm impedance end to end, with BNCs on each end (like the one you had at the meet, JJ). But as soon as one uses an RCA adaptor or even a direct connection RCA, it gets "fouled up".


 

 Interesting. But what kind of source gear uses BNC? I've never seen BNC on a computer, DAP, TV...... Is this only the stuff of recording studios?


----------



## gefski

landroni said:


> Interesting. But what kind of source gear uses BNC? I've never seen BNC on a computer, DAP, TV...... Is this only the stuff of recording studios?




Not many dacs do, though lots of external usb boxes (not usb "cleaners") have bnc out. I've got a Musical Fidelity vLink and a bel canto mLink that both do. Yggy and Gungnir have bnc in. Had a Metrum Octave here and it did also. But yes, if one is shopping dacs, you have to look at the back.


----------



## landroni

gefski said:


> Not many dacs do, though lots of external usb boxes (not usb "cleaners") have bnc out. I've got a Musical Fidelity vLink and a bel canto mLink that both do. Yggy and Gungnir have bnc in. Had a Metrum Octave here and it did also. But yes, if one is shopping dacs, you have to look at the back.


 

 Hmm, but what would you use to feed Yggy BNC? (In other words, what devices out there have BNC out?)


----------



## bimmer100

landroni said:


> Hmm, but what would you use to feed Yggy BNC? (In other words, what devices out there have BNC out?)


 
 if you must have BNC out than the Hydra Z would be an excellent choice to feed a BNC input dac
  
 http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z


----------



## gefski

landroni said:


> Hmm, but what would you use to feed Yggy BNC? (In other words, what devices out there have BNC out?)




In my case, I used the bel canto mLink that I liked with other dacs, but ended up liking the Yggy built in Gen 3 usb better, so the bel canto is now retired. Sometimes the dac's built in usb is better, sometimes an outboard usb is. But I don't know of much widely available gear that uses bnc. Didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but you guys were talking about coax & 75 ohm impedance, and I'm familiar with outboard usb. Yggy and most dacs have lots of different inputs.


----------



## BIG POPPA

@gefski , hey Glen, I have a BNC spdif converter you need to hear, hook it up to the yggi and enjoy. It is the JKeny. Just let me know and we can meet at Duck Island.


----------



## gefski

big poppa said:


> @gefski , hey Glen, I have a BNC spdif converter you need to hear, hook it up to the yggi and enjoy. It is the JKeny. Just let me know and we can meet at Duck Island.




I wanted to hear the JK stuff at the meet but it was wandering around the room. But I'm so tired of Windows driver hassles that I'm not trying any new usb interfaces or dacs on my PC, and am trying out a MAC that my wife handed me down (no drivers needed). So it will be a while before I do so.

Duck Island shouldn't be put off though. I like mid to late afternoon arrival so I can get one of the car seats. PM me anytime.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Okay noob's listen closely, we are having a secret meet at Duck Island, you need to pm me. After the New Year. Glen, Duck Island sounds mighty fine. Who knows who will show up and what we will bring. Portable Gear recommended.... We will not plug in there...... Tap in absolutely.........


----------



## johnjen

So I was reading the "Universal Serial Bus Specification Revision 2.0" and ran across the "Table 7-6. Maximum Allowable Cable Loss" chart.
Which doesn't transfer to this format, at least in any sort of readable format without much fussing…

So the gist is, USB doesn't like to loose signal strength.

So as an experiment I liberally applied Caig ProGold to the contacts at both ends of both of my USB cables that feed my DAC.
The results were subtle, which means they were in the 15% or less portion of the scale of change.

I would invite any of you who have access to ProGold (Now called DeoxIT® GOLD) to try this and see if cleaning up the contacts alone will help, at all.
It certainly can't hurt.
And insert and then plug back in a few times just to help wipe away any detritus from the contacts themselves.
And it might be a REALLY good idea to do this with ALL OF THE POWER OFF.

You know Just In Case…

JJ
ps Duck Island?
Do we need to bring bright orange safety vests? :atsmile:


----------



## bimmer100

With all the brilliant guys in this thread, i'm hoping I can get some knowledge to some options for a solid Network streamer for my setup.
  
 Ideally I would like a device just like the Auralic Aries. NOT a dac, but more of a bridge and with software for the Ipad to control and access music. Likely I will get a SSD and use this to store files. I have been streaming files from the internet to my Ipad and through Jriver to my Master11. Personally I would like something better to stream full resolution files around 24bit 192khz. And something with a femto clock like the Aries would be perfect. I don't want to spend over a grand. I would love to try the Aries if someone knows someone with one. Its a tad over budget but likely just what I need. But there must be other products out there that have these features and are NOT a dac. I want to keep the sweet sound of the master11.  Are there any recommendations that anyone could give me to look around and see whats out there. I prefer to do a ton of research before buying anything. This may take some time.
  
 I hope to find a solution to stream music to my M11 at each audio meet and avoid the silly apple ipad as a source since it's fairly limited. Albeit Neutron player is able to break that limit somehow and send out files. It's just that the interface of it has a lot to be desired. Jriver is far better, but for some reason will not stream out 24bit 192khz. Maybe i'm missing something. The only work around is having the audio transcoded. I must avoid this for ultimate quality of sound.
  
 Off subject, but many of you guys are local and would love to hear your thoughts on this.


----------



## johnjen

As the Computer Audiophile review of the Aries server/player states, "The Auralic Aries is a unique product in high end audio."
Replicating it, or at least those functional aspects you would need might prove to be a bit challenging without lots of other 'issues' cropping up.

Case in point, I can control my PSA PWD DAC via JRemote on my ipad that is being fed from JRiver Media Center, since the PWD has an ethernet connection to my local network. 
Using a dedicated Mac Mini would work equally as well.

But it takes all of this interoperabillity, that works together (a big assumption), to achieve this degree of overall control.
And the Aries is designed just for this (and more it appears).

Just my 2¢
JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 8 Getting your hearing ‘calibrated’…
What?*

No this doesn’t call for a trip to the audiologist. 

Instead this is about how we know what is ‘the best’, based upon what we have personally previously heard.

And the ‘better’ we have heard, the ‘*better*’ is our ‘standard’ for what IS best.

In short we calibrate our sense of what is ‘the best’ for ourselves as we hear improvements and hear other systems that truly are ‘*better*’ than we have heard previously.
It’s like we keep raising the bar as we experience ‘*better*’ and as we do so, we can more easily distinguish what isn’t ‘*better*’.

In short we ‘train’ ourselves to know what IS ‘*better*’, During and After we hear it, recognize it, desire it.
So ‘*better*’ is a changing and moving target, and it’s different for each of us as we only pay attention to those aspects of the acoustical and sonic presentation that we are aware of and value.
We learn how and what to listen to and for as we learn to identify certain triggers or indicators of “*Better*”.

IOW our ability to focus and concentrate upon certain sonic aspects improves as we get calibrated with “*Better*” acoustical experiences.

Even so as we improve the playback to more closely match it’s original acoustic source, those aspects of the presentation that we do pay attention to, will be ‘*better*’.
And so the rewards of hearing more of and deeper into the music, will be ‘*better*’.

IOW the more “*Better*”, the more we like it.
Well Duh… 


So I brought up the idea of getting calibrated first, because the next topic *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) is an experience that can set a new high water mark for what is possible.
IOW it can deliver a degree of calibration that is simply astounding.

And currently I am seeing signs and indications of aspects of *CNST* and related observations popping up already and from differing sources and coming from different directions.
But they are all pointing towards the same outcome, namely…

*CNST
Central Nervous System Tap 
Um, What?*

By now some may be wondering where all of what I’ve written so far is ‘coming from’ so to speak.
I mean, I figure that some are wondering what IS all of this, and what is the basis for all of these observations, among other questions.
And yes these are observation / experiential based audio TidBits I’ve gleaned along the way in my decades of audio investigations.

You see there was a singular event that set a high water mark that a fellow audiophool and I literally stumbled upon back in the early 70’s.
And both of us have been attempting to get back to that degree of realism, that degree of jaw dropping, attention getting, near spiritual experience, ever since.

With these latest developments in equipment (Schiit Dacs, wires, HD-800’s etc.) along with the recent attempts and refinements to reach fully 120dB capable playback systems, I have achieved ≈ 80-90% of the overall sonic impact that we both experienced way back then. Of course today some things are much better, like not having to deal with mis-tracking, and vinyl’s limited dynamic range etc., which when compared to what is available in today's digital sources, are but faded memories.

I mean back then we were using Altec EQ-5’s driven by a Phase Linear 400 driven by an Audio Research SP-3a1 from a Shibata tipped Audio Technica cartridge on a Thorens table with a Decca Unipivot arm. I mean nothing here is unique or special, but the synergy of that system in that particular house just gob smacked us up(in)side our heads. 
We did do a couple of things in the setup that were a bit ‘unusual’ at the time, which I’m sure were pivotal in attaining the results we did. But we both thought that it was just us, ‘hearing things’, until another audiophool friend came by and was transfixed in and to the sweet spot for the entire album side. We both looked at each other and we knew that it wasn’t just us, this system was WAY beyond ANYTHING we had ever heard before, or since. 
And until just recently with the advent of the major improvements in DAC’s and transducers etc. along with AC power system tweaks etc. that are available now, I had not really been able to even approached this level of direct personal involvement IN the music.

Back then none of the tweaks I’ve been mentioning here, were even a gleam in a marketers eyes… 
But we hit a lick (as we liked to say), we hit it hard! 
This system, the experience of being grabbed by the music had such a profound impact upon us both that we were forever calibrated, for life.

It f’n Rocked!

The sound enveloped us, to the point that we were immersed within the sound field. It wasn’t just ‘out there’ we were IN it. Put another way it surrounded and carried us along with it.
The sense of palpability, of reach out and touch each and every ‘voice’ was captivating and awe inspiring.
Our audiophool friend didn’t move once he fell into the sweet spot, well except for his jaw… (this is where I first observed the idea of IMPERATIVE.)
Like I said, we both have been on a mission ever since to get back to that degree of sonic nirvana.

But what struck me and astonished me the most was the sense of connectedness we experienced with the music while being IN the music. We deftly memorized all the words to Stevie Wonder - Talking Book, Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon, Dan Hicks and the Hot Licks - Striking It Rich, National Lampoon’s - Radio Diner, Frank Zappa’s - Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation and just about anything else we played. 

The only way I could even approach an adequate description to convey what the experience was like, was to coin and use the phrase Central Nervous System Tap - *CNST*. And it only points and hints at the experience of being IN the music, and/or having the music surround and be embedded within us. 

Being in the music is only a partial description and I use the term Central Nervous System Tap to emphasize that when experiencing music in this way the whole experience is of being completely linked into the music, of it being so *IMPERATIVE* there is literally nothing else to do, or that you want to do other than listen with your whole body
IOW to be immersed IN the music.

When the music is presented in this way, you have no choice but to get sucked into the experience and just ‘go with the flow’. The degree of compulsion, of insistence that all of your focus be locked onto what is being heard and experienced is difficult to adequately convey, using only words, thus me coining the term *CNST*. 

It had our full, undivided attention, in no uncertain terms.

We were both ‘calibrated’ by that system and those experiences from 4+ decades ago.
And now being able to achieve this degree of replication of the experience is the realization of a promise I made to myself back then. 
To achieve the same degree of being surrounded IN and enveloped BY the music, to experience that CNST again.

Only it’s not the same.
It’s better and ‘different’ all at the same time.
Of course to really expect it to be the same is both unrealistic and a welcome change. I mean the mis-tracking was screechy and there was turntable rumble, and wow and flutter and tape hiss etc. All of which is either now gone or has been tamed even further to the point that they just add another degree of ‘texture’ and nuance to the music.
And I don’t miss, the limited dynamic range necessitated by vinyl, nor having to get up every ≈ 25 minutes to change the album, no, not at all.

And the bass resolution while way better than anything we had heard up until that time has been bested, in every way. The timbre, subtle inner details, the musical note that each drum head (and cymbal) is tuned to, and along with all of the harmonically related resonant over and undertones (which were amazing back then) all now have better resolution, better coupling, faster response. And it’s not just in the leading edge where these new improvements show up, but everywhere else as well, especially evident are the improvements due to reductions in decay time in the transducers, and the AC power delivery enhancements, along with major '*Jitter*' reductions and so much more.

But the magic we can now achieve, the insistence that compels attention to and involvement with what is being heard (It Is *IMPERATIVE*), regardless of what it is (which is another key aspect in and of itself) is now beyond mere stellar. No matter how horrid the music, no matter how wretchedly it was mangled by compressors and limiters, driven into saturation and distorted and then recorded along with hiss and wow and flutter, despite ALL of this, the music can now yield increased insight into the music’s innerds, and these improvements are by orders of magnitudes. And all of these new sonic technical achievements have turned tracks, that used to be bad enough that it was ‘painful’ to hear, into musically inviting, well, music.

No matter how bad some of the early Rolling Stones tracks were, now they are not just listenable but the reaction to grab the volume control and turn it down or better yet off, has just vanished. Every track is intriguing, even the distortions and sonic hiccups are but added layers of musical information to be enjoyed right along with the rest.


And I suspect that all of my tweaking, is going to take a giant-mother-may-I leap forward, or up, or ahead, or in, in the very near future.
And for me it will be like returning to familiar ground, or realizing a 40 year old promise… 

Only WAY better. :thumb

So if anyone else has had a *CNST* type of experience I’d REALLY like to hear about it.

This is get’n REAL interesting! 


JJ


*End Part 8 
Next up A Thought Experiment.*


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> IOW the cable plugs into and connects two transceiver chips (one at each end) which both transmit and receive data packets interchangeably. How the chips 'deal with' the various electrical and signal characteristics, in real time, and especially in the USB realm where audio and video present very different requirements (ie. real time streaming) to what its original design intent was, also adds more complexity to this already complex situation.


 
  
 On the subject of USB being used for streaming, here's an excerpt from a recent interview by Mike Moffat (when discussing Schiit Wyrd):
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-mike-moffat-schiit-audio
_"There's been some controversy over the Schiit Wyrd, which is a "Audiophile USB Hub". From a technical perspective, why does the Wyrd make a difference in terms of a system's sound quality?
 That is an interesting concept, particularly given Schiit's policy of making no sonic claims for any of our products. We do that not so much out of sonic agnosticism – we well know that products sound different; rather, we prefer to let our customers determine for themselves what pleases them sonically. I also strive to find measurable differences between sonic differences. I have several projects to that end in process now._
_Returning to the Wyrd, it was initially designed as a fix for the very widely variable performance of USB sockets on computers in general, and PCs in particular. Since PCs come from many makers, the quality variance over a large sample of PCs varies significantly according to cost. The connector quality varies as well. What this means in the real world is that one USB socket on one computer does not equal another on different machines, nor even on the same one._
_A significant cost for Schiit, one that becomes critical when we sell tens of thousands of $100, $150, and $400 digital to analog converters is that of customer service._
_Hence the Wyrd – it was built as an inexpensive, quality USB Hub for the purpose of streaming reliability. It was the first product of its kind, and is well suited for that purpose. We are well aware of the fact that many have noted sonic differences, even though there is little in the way of consensus. That may make sense in system sample to sample variability, given the differences in source USB, and target converters. This gives rise to an exponential rise in YMMV, and makes it even more important with this product to stress we make no sonic guarantees. It is first and foremost a reliability enhancer."_
 Obviously all USB receivers (and cables) are not made equal, affecting real-time streaming reliability.
  
 On a different note, it's funny how he very subtly tackles the "subjectivist/objectivist" debate, noting that products do sound different and that they're looking into ways to quantify that. Would be sweet if Schiit came with some solid evidence for audible differences, while avoiding the reliability pitfalls of ABX testing in audio.


----------



## BIG POPPA

landroni said:


> johnjen said:
> 
> 
> > IOW the cable plugs into and connects two transceiver chips (one at each end) which both transmit and receive data packets interchangeably. How the chips 'deal with' the various electrical and signal characteristics, in real time, and especially in the USB realm where audio and video present very different requirements (ie. real time streaming) to what its original design intent was, also adds more complexity to this already complex situation.
> ...



I think in this case being the Devils advocate with this piece of equipment is just plain mean spirited. You like or you don't . It's 100 bucks, really go this far??


----------



## johnjen

For me the Wyrd was, along with a few other tweaks, enough to replace the ethernet data stream path I was using.
Up until the Wyrd came out, using the USB data stream was significantly inferior to the ethernet method of passing the digits and bits along to my PWD dac.

This was a 'problem' in that the player I was using (Media Center) didn't have the DSP function enabled while using the ethernet data stream, but it had a much better degree of resolution and inner detail etc.
I was unwilling to give up the "Better" SQ, but it did limit my ability to explore the power of DSP's signal modification (EQ, phase reversal, timbre shifts etc.) capabilities.

So for those who want to know for themselves if USB decrapification really is an improvement, or not, its an 'easy' and relatively inexpensive experiment to find out.
And I figure that most will hear a change, one they hear as being "Better", 
but some may not.

And now that there are a few 'alternative' usb decrapifiers available, the task at hand is to determine if they too truly do improve the SQ in ones system.

And the latest 'craze' is using multiple Wyrds (or an alternative usb decrapifier) in series.
This has been reported in a few places and we are pursuing this line of experimentation/investigation to determine what the changes are in our systems.

But for me in my system the totally unexpected result of adding the Wyrd and a decent USB cable and other tweaks was, the tonal shift in the SQ.
It was like an analog coloration shift, where the bass was reduced and the mids and up were increased and the entire soundstage took a mother may I step up in SQ.
It was like an EQ change along with increased resolution everywhere.

And since DSP was now 'enabled', I easily compensated for the EQ shift and kept the SQ improvement as a 'bonus'.
I haven't looked back since.

JJ


----------



## tomb

atomicbob said:


> Here is a table comparing the Vrms, Vpp, Ima and Power to achieve 100 dB SPL average and 110 dB SPL peak for various popular headphone, based on published specifications and nominal impedances. This ignores any impedance bumps a given headphone driver may have.


 
  
  
 Just curious about where you got these numbers.
  
 For instance, Sennheiser quotes the following in their product manuals:
  
 Sennheiser HD800 - 102dB at 1Vrms (http://en-us.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/4746/HD800_DE_EN.pdf)
 Sennheiser HD650 - 103dB at 1Vrms (http://en-us.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/4636/HD650_560027_1114_EN.pdf)
 Sennheiser HD600 -   97dB at 1Vrms (http://en-us.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/4640/HD600_560026_1114_EN.pdf)
  
 At 300 ohms and 1Vrms, that equates to 3.33mW, _so the sensitivity per mW is even much less_ than those Sennheiser dB values at 1mW in your table (about -4.77dB lower).  In any event, the HD600 is nowhere in the same realm of sensitivity as the HD650 and HD800.  I haven't looked at the other headphone documented values in your table, but knew right away that something was wrong with what you have shown for the Sennheisers, especially the HD600.  At 1mW, sensitivity is ~92.23dB for the HD600.


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## jcx

http://www.head-fi.org/t/168037/db-per-milliwhat-efficiency-vs-sensitivity-vs-how-loud-do-they-really-go#post_3257160 seem to still be there
  
 many in the industry are changing the reference from "efficiency dB" re 1 mW to "sensitivity dB" re 1 Vrms - unfortunately the ad copy writers don't always understand the distinction and necessity to put the reference level along with "dB" and you can see either with just "dB" as the unit in the official manufacturer specs for new headphones
  


> ...In any event, the HD600 is nowhere in the same realm of sensitivity as the HD650 and HD800.


 
 I believe tomb/atomicbob are actually looking at a documentation mistake - the older sensitivity spreadsheet is clear on the HD600 giving efficiency of 97 dB re 1 mW, the HD650 at 98
 looks like Senn blew it with a HD600  document rewrite by putting the wrong dB re 1 Vrms sensitivity unit with the older efficiency number
  
  
  another possible confounding difference is the measurement frequency - the efficiency/sensitivity number is most often measured at 1 kHz - but Tyll has decided to use 500 Hz in his InnerFidelity headphone measurements
  

  
 and more broadly there have often been arguments over "perceived loudness" and the manufacturer spec sheet number here on head-fi
 which can reflect listening to music with much wider frequency content - then the shape of the headphone's frequency response curve can easily change the overall impression with music vs just 1 kHz or Tyll's 500 Hz single frequency measurement
  
 and few mention the average SPL either when giving personal impressions - despite the well known in Psychoacoustics Fletcher-Munson Loudness contours showing perceived frequency response is dependent on listening SPL too


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## atomicbob

tomb said:


> Just curious about where you got these numbers.
> 
> For instance, Sennheiser quotes the following in their product manuals:
> 
> ...


 
 I obtained the data from the product manuals that came with the headphones at the time of acquisition. My HD600 headphones were acquired Feb 2010. It appears the manuals have gone through a revision and the reference has been changed from dB/mW to dB/1Vrms. That said, it also appears the sensitivities are being revised. The document I posted was started nearly a decade ago using data from each mfg's supplied manuals.


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## tomb

A lot of this is conjecture, but regardless - it seems the Senns were never at 102dB, especially the HD600s.


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## jcx

Tyll is a source of independent measurements:
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD600.pdf


> Volts RMS required to reach 90dB SPL: 0.230 Vrms
> Impedance @ 1kHz: 307 Ohms
> Power Needed for 90d BSPL 0.17 mW


 
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf


> Volts RMS required to reach 90dB SPL: 0.205 Vrms
> Impedance @ 1kHz: 320 Ohms
> Power Needed for 90d BSPL 0.13 mW


 
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf


> Volts RMS required to reach 90dB SPL: 0.242 Vrms
> Impedance @ 1kHz: 361 Ohms
> Power Needed for 90d BSPL 0.16 mW


 
  
 and HeadRoom which normalizes to 1 kHz so doesn't help directly with efficiency/sensitivity:

  
 but as I stated above - there is room for argument over frequency response weighting given the differences in the curves if you want to argue your personal listening perception of their relative loudness


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## tomb

Well, that's certainly closer to (if not equal to) 97dB for the HD600.  As I said, nowhere near 102dB.
  
 Silly me ... imagine referencing a manufacturer's officially posted specifications.


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## jcx

its not personal - its about comparing evidence, collecting more if there is some question
  
 Tyll's 0.17 mW for the HD600  is only 1.2 dB less than the HD650 0.13 mW to reach 90 dB SPL - which is consistent with the 97 vs 98 dB re 1 mW efficiency spec from the older spreadsheet for HD600 vs HD650
  
 additionally from Tyll's data: 90 dB + 10*log(1/0.17) ~+ 97.7 dB, quite close to the 97 dB re 1 mW efficiency number for the HD600
  
 so it seems likely Senn's spec writer made a mistake in printing Vrms and apparently using the dB mW number


----------



## tomb

jcx said:


> its not personal - its about comparing evidence, collecting more if there is some question
> 
> Tyll's 0.17 mW for the HD600  is only 1.2 dB less than the HD650 0.13 mW to reach 90 dB SPL - which is consistent with the 97 vs 98 dB re 1 mW efficiency spec from the older spreadsheet for HD600 vs HD650
> 
> ...


 
  
 I didn't take it personally - just a little amazed at one of the more trusted mfrs in the business.


----------



## atomicbob

Ok, here is an update. Not everything may be correct because I don't have everyone of these headphones to measure and must also rely on what (sometimes limited) specifications are published by the respective manufacturers. I spent a good portion of today measuring headphone sensitivities. Some things to keep in mind:
 1. websites can mis-quote manufacturers specs and/or report them incompletely. I may post a few examples in another post
 2. some manufacturers are more complete with specs and how they were measured, others leave the reader guessing.
 eg: SPL 102 dB
 Was that measured at 1mW and accounting for the headphone impedance or 1 Vrms?
 3. in the table below if a headphone was measured, then the power calculations are taken from the measurements. Otherwise they are taken from the published specifications with best guess as to what reference was used.
 4. The Sennheiser published 1Vrms SPL are calculated for the next column which typically assumes dB/mW, for comparison to other values in the column.
 5. Measurements were made with 1000 Hz, 1.00 Vrms stimulus. SPL are in dBC.
  

  
  
 Equipment used for testing:
 ACO Pacific 7046 measurement mic capsule on 7012 mic preamp body (NIST traceable cal)
 NTI AL1 Acoustilyzer acoustic measurement system (NIST traceable cal)
 Bruel & Kjaer 4231 sound level calibrator (NIST traceable cal)
 Fluke 189 DMM (NIST traceable cal)
 Schiit Bifrost MB DAC (toslink input)
 Schiit Asgard2 Amp
 Gustard U12 USB to toslink DDC
 Cool Edit Pro 2 DAW
 Custom BlockHead(TM)
  
 Here are pictures of the overall test setup:

  
 Mic - Measurement system sound level calibration

  
 Headphone SPL measurement at 1Vrms delivered to headphones

  
 Mic - headphone interface

  
 Headphones are carefully placed such that the transducer is centered over the mic. BlockHead(TM) material has been made of material with the same density as a typical human head. Width of the BlockHead(TM) is 15.5 cm, similar to a typical human head, allowing realistic pressure on the headphone - mic interface from the head band.


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## landroni

johnjen said:


> IOW the cable plugs into and connects two transceiver chips (one at each end) which both transmit and receive data packets interchangeably. How the chips 'deal with' the various electrical and signal characteristics, in real time, and especially in the USB realm where audio and video present very different requirements (ie. real time streaming) to what its original design intent was, also adds more complexity to this already complex situation.


 
 A related discussion on USB's suitability for audio streaming, and some thoroughly unquotable stuff by Mike Moffat (as recalled by Jason Stoddard):
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/690#post_10441924
_“But USB sucks. It just sucks. It was never meant for audio. It’s an all-purpose, packet-based grab-bag that might be fine for printers or hard drives, but it’s just crap for streaming. You can recover the clock from the packet clock, barf, or you can have the computer and DAC do some negotiating and guess at the clock, barf, or you can turn the whole car around and drive it from the back seat with the computer providing the clock, barf._
  
_Note: the above, for the more technical, is Mike’s take on isosynchronus, adaptive, and asynchronous USB implementations.” _


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## johnjen

What really is amazing at least to me, is how well it actually does work, despite the technical foibles.
I mean streaming has much more complexity to it than merely sending a file from one device to another and making sure it arrives intact.

And some M-B manufacturers are actually building in a dedicated audiophool 'rated' USB port with special 'handling' (extra clean USB power, and separate dedicated bus and controllers etc.) to help address these very issues.

It really is too bad that USB has become such a defacto 'standard', one that wasn't and still isn't really meant for music streaming.
And what is even more amazing is outside of the pro audio level stuff there really isn't a single standard for data streaming that meets all of the requirements (now and into the future) for streaming music.

I mean how many computers even have an option of adding an AES/EBU port?

I guess we're the step child of computer based data management capabilities, and from that perspective it's fortunate that USB works as well as it does.

JJ


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## gefski

Stepchild is putting it kindly. We music lovers/audiophiles are way less important than that to the sovereign states of Redmond and Cupertino. Maybe 5th cousin?? 

But dedicated companies like Wavelength, Empirical Audio, and many others have wrung great performance out of the usb interface. Even Mike Moffat, in his Robert Hunter thread, has recently described a Mac/usb rig he apparently "likes", despite Schiit's history of semi-trash talk about usb.

And it's only been a few years of development. Just 5-ish years ago, my first real dac for computer use, the Cambridge Audio DacMagic, provided crisp and clean, yet flat and lifeless sonics via their usb input, but came to life with Musical-Fidelity's V-Link outboard usb. It just took a few smart people to say "hmmm, this usb interface sounds like crap, can I fix it?"

And now, usb-ing to Yggy, I'm re-listening, slack-jawed, to the thousands of 16/44 albums I already own (mumbling "don't need no hi-rez"). Yep, it actually works amazingly well now.


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## johnjen

And when using the original Wyrd Schiit USB decrapifier, USB seems to work quite well, not to mention using several at once, let alone one (or more) of its cousins.

I figure that between cleaning up the 'dirty' power feed and resequencing the data stream, not to mention using 'better' USB cables (larger gauge wires for less signal loss, even if they become more 'stiff'') all seem to do their bit to help. 
Sorta like the total sum of using better parts is greater than just the parts themselves.

And yeah Dacs have come along way in the recent past, especially when the '$/performance = value' aspect is taken into account.

But what seems rather strange is how few AES/EBU cards there are, and how costly they are.
Let alone the question of how much of an improvement they might make.

S/PIDIF in either of its flavors has some advantages but AES/UBU has many more advantages, except for being affordable.

Oh well, at least USB has come of age a bit and can stand on it's own now.

JJ


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## johnjen

*DIY’rs run amok*
*or*
*What happens AFTER it breaks is what separates the meek from the true, dyed in the wool, total gonzo audiophool tweaker.*

Yes my experiments have taken a turn toward the complex side of tweakdom.

And things were proceeding so smoothly and were quite nifty on my latest project,
until…

This is the side of screwing around with audio stuff where few dare to tread.
And where taking responsibility for those pesky, oooppppssss, which is followed closely thereafter with that stark in yer face realization, that yes indeed, I now own the remnants.
And that repair parts are now right up there on the ‘to do list’ along with attempted repairs. 

Just being willing to, let alone actually start taking this stuff apart to figure on what could be done to change things, and hopefully for the better, does entail certain ‘risks’.
But even if the results don’t exactly result in ‘improvements’, there can be valuable information gained.
Like, Well That Doesn’t Work fer nuth’n.

But then there is the situation where when things get broken they either need to be replaced or repaired, or in this case both, hopefully.

And so far the body count is up to 3, but really only 2 of the 3 are truly dead, at least at this point.
And I’m figur’n on a Phoenix type experience to happen here for those 2 near dead parts to come back to life.




So the details…
I have Big Poppas HD700’s in my eeeeeville clutches and I had modified the cable to terminate it with a balanced 4pin XLR connector, and made an adapter out of the TRS end of the cable, to plug into the now balanced cable, just like nuth’n happened.
Well except he now has 2 more options than he did before.
#1 he can run the 700’s balanced, and
#2 he can run the 700’s using the phase reversal trick, while being plugged into either a balanced or unbalanced amp.

But I was figur’n on how to apply some vibration management to them as well, oh and by the way lets replace those really wimpy 28g hookup wires with some not quite so wimpy 24g wire I have.
Not a big deal right?
Well, I forgot about those itsy bitsy tiny weenie lettle wyrz that run from the voice coil up to the circuit board to be connected to those 28g leads that run to the other circuit board where the 2.5mm connector plugs reside where the headphone cable plugs in.

Those “itsy bitsy tiny weenie lettle wyrz” are smaller than a human hair, well at least my hair anyway.
And those 28g wires are 0.33mm in diameter.
The hair is 0.05mm.
And see how those “itsy bitsy tiny weenie lettle wyrz” are even smaller still (see pic)?

I can only hazard a guess as to what their gauge size is…
So I’m figur’n on how to reconnect those “itsy bitsy tiny weenie lettle wyrz” back up.
There be the challenge, and much like inspector Clueso, ‘I alwaiz acept ze shallonge!’



And all of this even before we started carving using a dremel on some of the support structure.

Yeah we’re in this one up to our eyeballs, and then some.
Oh and lest you think I’m wreaking havoc on Big Poppas 700’s without his agreement that mad men not only could, but SHOULD, perform these brave and adventurous sorts of explorations into the unknown, well such is not the case.

The thing is I need to order up some repair/replacement parts and the choices come down to purchasing a used HD700 and/or ordering up new parts, in no particular order.

So this is a call out to anyone who is willing to sell us, his pair of 700’s, for science and the greater good, you understand… (ie. for cheap) :atsmile:

And we will be getting new drivers in any case, because I should restore his 700’s back to ‘like new’ condition and I’ll hang onto the ’test mule’/test bed setup for use in yet further experiments.
I have further ideas to explore and a ‘test mule’ will allow me some additional latitude to see how to ‘better’ apply my vibrational management ideas.

The HD700 has all but fallen off the edge of the headphone world and if my hunch is right, there is a chance they can become THE bargain basement tweako headphone.
Currently amazone is selling them for $449, new, and if they can be ‘helped’ they just might be a lateral/step up from the 6xx series.

Yeah I know, dream on, but still the small amount of fussing with the few tweaks thus far, were rather encouraging.

Besides a true dyed in the wool DIY’r doesn’t stop screwing around just because he breaks a few parts here and there.
And if the goal remains in sight and looks to be getting nearer, ‘well say no more, say no more, know what I mean, eh?’

JJ :atsmile:


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> For me the Wyrd was, along with a few other tweaks, enough to replace the ethernet data stream path I was using.
> Up until the Wyrd came out, using the USB data stream was significantly inferior to the ethernet method of passing the digits and bits along to my PWD dac.





> So for those who want to know for themselves if USB decrapification really is an improvement, or not, its an 'easy' and relatively inexpensive experiment to find out.
> And I figure that most will hear a change, one they hear as being "Better",
> but some may not.


 

 The backstory behind the development of Schiit Wyrd is a fun read:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/3810#post_11058782
  
 I will only quote a couple of tidbits here:
_"*Okay, big aside here, before I am eviscerated by the objectivists: I know there is no sane, rational way in which a USB repeater/clean power device can scientifically affect the sound of a system. USB, like all digital interfaces, is, in the end, digital. The packets either get there or they don’t. If they don’t, they are resent, if possible. If they can’t be received in time for a streaming application like audio, you get glitches and disconnections. That should be it. Period, no exceptions. So clean power and shapely waveforms should, theoretically, make no difference._

  
_*And another big aside, for the subjectivists: Yes, I also know that USB, like any other digital transmission system, is essentially using imperfect analog waveforms to transmit very high-rate data (in the case of USB 2.0, theoretically 480Mbps, or about 300x what you need to transmit stereo 16/44 content, though overhead usually makes the actual rate much lower). But the fact is, it should not matter in the least how well-shaped or noise-free the waveform is—the packet is either 100% recovered, or it isn’t. If it wasn’t, you couldn’t simply copy several hundred gigabytes of data to an external drive reliably._

  
_*And a final big aside, for everyone: If insanity is defined by the ability to hold two completely contradictory ideas in your head and accept both of them, then me, Mike, and Dave are all completely bonkers. Because we run into this same objective/subjective thing all the time."_
  
 and:
_“But…why [does it make a difference]?” I persisted._

  
_Dave shrugged. “Lots of reasons. The power supply is super-low-noise. It’s using LM723 regulators, which are rated 4.17uV of noise, plus organic polymer capacitors, plus I’m using a tight crystal for the USB repeater. Lots of little things.”_

  
_“But it still shouldn’t matter,” I said._

  
_Dave nodded. “Right.”_

  
_“But it does something.”_

  
_“Right.”_
  
 and:
_"Truth and Marketing_

  
_If Schiit was a purely subjective company, the dilemma of having a product that made stuff sound better, without having any rational explanation as to why, wouldn’t be a dilemma at all. We’d wrap it up in nice flowery language, throw in some pseudo-meaningful charts that showed the difference in power supply noise levels, and call it a day._

  
_If Schiit was a purely objective company, the dilemma might not be a dilemma at all. Because we might have convinced ourselves that, even though there was a difference, there really was no difference, and so why bother making something that didn’t make a difference?_

  
_But as a company that uses both objective measurement and subjective listening, it’s not so clear. We could do the pure subjective thing with the words about how you’re transported in space and time to a wonderful world where unicorns dance and crap like that. Sure. We could._

  
_But that isn’t us._

  
_And that isn’t honest. Because, you know what? We’re really talking about small differences here. It might not be important to a lot of people. It can be easily dismissed._

  
_But for other listeners, it might be big enough to be significant."_
  
 My suspicion is that not all transceivers are made equal (at both sending and receiving end), and better/worse implementations can affect real-time streaming performance. A Wyrd-like device will do at least two things: (1) replace the receiver by a higher-quality implementation that "works harder" or "more efficiently", and (2) broadcast the intercepted bitstream using a higher-quality transmitter while using a low-noise power supply for a clean, stronger signal that would ultimately help a lower-quality receiver chip in the DAC.
  
 PS As an aside, the other day I got a stark reminder of what happens in the digital world when the transmitted bitstream gets compromised. And how two digital systems can have wildly different performance when confronted with the same (corrupted) source. Watching a DVD on an Xbox, some 1h into the movie the reader encountered a wide and scary scratch, and the DAC completely broke down. I was getting something like 25-40% of image data, the rest being black/green squares, updated every 3-4 sec or so. Unwatchable. Rather gloomily, I took the DVD and plugged it into a laptop, not expecting much if any improvement. To my disbelief, the laptop playback went without one single (obvious) hitch, streaming the movie in its entirety to the end. Bits are bits, but obviously how operate the different components transmitting and receiving them can make a world of difference.


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> snip
> 
> PS As an aside, the other day I got a stark reminder of what happens in the digital world when the transmitted bitstream gets compromised. And how two digital systems can have wildly different performance when confronted with the same (corrupted) source. Watching a DVD on an Xbox, some 1h into the movie the reader encountered a wide and scary scratch, and the DAC completely broke down. I was getting something like 25-40% of image data, the rest being black/green squares, updated every 3-4 sec or so. Unwatchable. Rather gloomily, I took the DVD and plugged it into a laptop, not expecting much if any improvement. To my disbelief, the laptop playback went without one single (obvious) hitch, streaming the movie in its entirety to the end. Bits are bits, but obviously how operate the different components transmitting and receiving them can make a world of difference.


I too have noticed this as well.

Some CD's won't 'play well', even in a high end audio CD player, but my Mac will read the files just fine.

It would seem that data drives (as in computer DVD & CD drives along with the system OS s/w that runs them) do a far better job of reading discs that have 'problems' than either music or video player drives.
My guess is it's not the drives themselves, although there may be some differences with some of them, but mostly that the computer OS s/w that reads and controls the data stream has far more 'robust' data reconstruction algorithms than those used in dedicated players.

Which is kinda interesting that the dedicated audio and video players have more trouble reading the data from disc's they are strictly focused upon vs. the more generalized data drive function in a computer that needs to be able to read a rather wide range of data formats and disc types.

Sorta head scratcher…

JJ


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## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 9 A thought experiment.


Phase Δ Reduction, 
A Thought Experiment…*

Think of 2 (or more) thin sheets of diner plate sized clear mylar, back to back, all the same size with identical radial spoke patterns with ellipsoidal and/or non-concentric patterns printed on them. And as they are rotated about their center they begin to come back into, or go out of alignment with respect to each other. 

At first, as you look thru these backlit sheets it may look like a mish-mash of complexity with nary a recognizable pattern anywhere to be seen. But as the layers continue to rotate and begin to come into closer alignment with each other, they will start to show complex moiré patterns, and then morph back to chaos, as they continue to come into alignment. Then simpler moiré patterns emerge, and then chaos returns again, and this trend continues until they are nearly superimposed as the last moiré pattern gives way to the primary pattern. But the lines are still ‘fat’ but getting thinner as the identical patterns continue to align and merge, until all the lines exactly match their original patterns. 

At that point the resolution of this system has reached it’s maximum focus, based upon the existing pattern. So as energy passes thru unrestricted, maximum ‘clarity’ or focus and 0º phase differences are achieved, and all that remains is the original pattern.

When the 2 (or more) layers are perfectly aligned then this same pattern is passed along by all layers without deviation, which assures ‘perfect’ coupling of all available energy of the original pattern along with perfect ‘timing’, as the energy passes thru.

And now for a change up…
Rather than having a fixed pattern on all ‘layers’, instead consider these patterns as being dynamic. Think of the patterns as the musical signal that are then being presented to our ears, it’s the music as it ‘plays’ in real time.

This is analogous to what I’m hearing as my various experiments I’ve been making, ‘settle in’.
At first the focus starts to get better then it gets worse, and then better still. And as this pattern continues, the focus gets sharper each time it comes back into focus.
It’s as if the focus of each ‘voice’ tightens up into and as, it’s ‘full’ self, in a slow repeating spiral pattern as it approaches it’s full resolution, interleaved with times when the sound becomes chaotic or diffused, aka. heads into the toilet.
But this pattern is like an iterative repeating loop as the sound gets better and the chaos also lessens in complexity and severity as more hours are accumulated. IOW the sound at both ‘extremes’ improves as it comes more into focus and also doesn’t go out of focus as much during the diffused periods.

Put another way as there is more there, there, and as it comes more into focus, there is less chaos, less fuzz, less obfuscation. And so as the energy that passes thru this pattern is altered less and less, we notice more of the true nature of the pattern and only the pattern as itself.

This is also directly related to coupling, as in, all of the re-created acoustical sound energy is focused precisely where and when, to match each of the original ‘voices’.

And since we already know that we can hear minute timing differences, this enhanced ability to focus the proper amount of acoustical energy at the proper time, when presented to our ears can be likened to a holographic image. 
Only in this case the greater the density of the holographic medium (the more resolution it can contain), the more precise and sharp we can focus our ‘reference’ re-construction beam, the more dense (more there, there) and precise, the re-created image can be.

This level of holographic resolution and energy coupling, when it resolves into sharper and sharper focus, can be startling.

JJ

*
End Part 9 Next up Yet More Useful Terms.*


----------



## johnjen

*My Christmas treat…*

So Atomic Bob and I got together over the holiday break and played with some really kewl toys and made some measurements of my modded HD800’s and other equipment we had on hand.

As before we shared insights and learned lessons in terms of how to achieve optimal (kick-ass) tunes independent of the playback equipment we were using.
And we talked about the gear we were using for playback and how much it has improved over the recent past.

And Bob went into exquisite detail on HOW to setup and use the measurement gear we were using to characterize my headphones and all the related and dependent gear needed to test my 800’s.
His measurement s/w and h/w is so sophisticated (ie has so many features and settings) that the very nature of the setup will majorly influence the results that were obtained, that I’m glad Bob is on top of all of this.
The setup reminds me of getting one of the old Techtronix analog O’scopes of yesteryear to even display anything, only times 100 in terms of number of settings and complex interaction between all of them.
Lets just say it would be WAY too easy to get lost in the setup alone, not to mention knowing just what the results actually mean vs. what it could be interpreted to mean.

One of the more significant insights we shared is that certain combinations of playback equipment and the setup in which they operate, can be more compelling than others, regardless of cost or sophistication.
Case in point is Bob’s ≈$1500 system (amp, dac, HP’s, s/w, and setup tweaks) which can be more compelling than his top end system without the setup tweaks and s/w.
And by compelling, what I’m referring to is, if given the choice to pick one system, or the other, (since both are up and running), the ‘lessor’ system with the tweaks was more preferred, was the one that was chosen more often for just wanting to be carried away by the music.

This is a significant finding in terms of deriving satisfaction from listening to music for its own sake.
And that the price barrier has been broken, simply by careful selection of gear along with easy to implement tweaks, is also rather noteworthy.

But these tweaks can as easily be applied to any just about any computer based setup with these same significant improvements. 
But that they are this effective and result in such impressive results with modestly priced playback gear is really the point of these experiments.

We also compared two of the garage-1217 amps, the Horizon III and the Sunrise III back to back, both running linear power supplies. 
Horizon was using an Acopian 48V LPS with ultra-low power supply noise. 
Sunrise used a Talema 24V LPS with low power supply noise (much less than the original SMPS.)
And while these are fairly inexpensive outboard P/S’s, they make a significant contribution in SQ.

This was an interesting comparison in that once we used 2 of the same tubes (an Electro-Harmonix 12BH7) the differences between them were more closely matched, but with the preference going to the Horizon amp.
We figured it was due to the higher supply voltage (48 vs 24 volts) the Horizon requires that contributed to the slight improvement we were hearing. 
This higher voltage runs the tube a bit closer to the operating voltages where these tubes usually are run.

And after peering at the schematics for these 2 amps, which have near identical audio paths, it became apparent the only significant difference is the supply voltage.
And those Electro-Harmonix tubes are VERY stable and not just from a microphonics standpoint but also after biasing them up, they quickly achieve a stable bias current, requiring very little re-adjustment long term.

And during our get together I learned a whole nuther level of measurement techniques and the importance of how to ‘adjust’ and display the results of the tests in order to peer into the meaning of just what has been measured.
Which has a flip side, in that it can be WAY to too easy to misinterpret the results simply due to the way in which the settings can be adjusted to display the very same data, only using a different time base or using a different means of compressing the data, etc.

IOW it can very easy to misinterpret any test results especially if the setup has ‘conflicts’ of any sort.

Another interesting observation we both have noticed is that it takes ≈ 1/2 hr of listening before headphones really start to fully ‘sing’. 
This is independent of the gear warming up.
IOW after ≈ 1/2 hr of headphone listening time, on our head(s), that is when the music ‘clicks’ into full focus and the degree of involvement in the music kicks into high gear.

We speculated it may be that the voice coils reach thermal equilibrium along with the rest of the related mass and structure.
This might be related to the idea of thermal flow, where once equilibrium has been reached there is a degree of stability in the entire system and 
Of course it could also be that our auditory sense needs some time before it also fully ‘warms up’ er sumpt’n.
Or it might be that the captured air pocket inside the ear cups needs to reach a state of equilibrium as well.
And not just in a thermal way but with humidity as well.
And it is also noteworthy that as the % of humidity changes so does the density of the air itself.

What this ‘mechanism’ might be, as to why there is a ≈1/2hr ‘warm up’ time, is speculation at this point , but what we do know is, the degree of compulsion to continue to listen and get sucked into the music does take a while after the HP’s go on the head.

And an interesting test is to change to different HP’s after say an hour of listening, after all the gear has warmed up, and then see how long it takes for the 2nd set of HP’s to begin to sing, again.

But that we both noticed this, on completely separate systems, independently of each other, is also telling.
Perhaps others may see if this holds true for you and your system as well.


JJ


----------



## BIG POPPA

Some people freak out when you use the term *Warm up*. Well your gear gets warm after it is turned on and it is going. To me there is a better term to describe what your gear does in the first couple hours. Especially with tube gear, I use  to the term *Focus*. To me after listening to gear as much as I do. Do notices things and changes throughout my session. Right after you turn on the gear, it can sound fantastic or very crummy, it will go through changes, If you listen to a song right when you turn on your gear, and then an hour later, I bet you they will sound different,  I bet you the the one an hour later will be a little more smooth, a little more clear, a little more *Focused*.
 I listen to my rig almost every night for hours and hours. Yeah it is dialed in, Yeah it sounds fantastic. But I figured out what my *sound signature* was. Mine is *smooth and euphoric*. When Diana Krall sings, she sits on my lap and sings to me. It is that intimate. Like all my music to sound like that, and for the most part, it does.
 To me it is most import to define your sound signature and get on that path, and get the gear and use tweeks to get there. Listen to your gear enough, you will know what the strengths and faults are. That is where I would start. My thoughts at the moment.


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> *My Christmas treat…*
> 
> 
> Another interesting observation we both have noticed is that it takes ≈ 1/2 hr of listening before headphones really start to fully ‘sing’.
> ...




This touches on my long time belief about different types of listening. 

There is a huge emphasis on HeadFi with instantaneous A/B comparisons. This immediately reveals frequency response differences -- "more bass", "too bright", etc. I'd say probably 70 percent of sonic descriptions I read are in this F/R domain. To be sure, gross aberrations here can be intolerable. However...

So many of the characteristics that leave me listening, eyes closed, with deep emotional "sinking into" entire albums cannot be pinned down in this type of listening. Timbre & texture, attack & damping, the natural flow of a piece of music over time, and the real touch of air moving in the (perceived) soundstage are only revealed with the extended listening you describe.


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> This touches on my long time belief about different types of listening.
> 
> There is a huge emphasis on HeadFi with instantaneous A/B comparisons. This immediately reveals frequency response differences -- "more bass", "too bright", etc. I'd say probably 70 percent of sonic descriptions I read are in this F/R domain. To be sure, gross aberrations here can be intolerable. However...
> 
> So many of the characteristics that leave me listening, eyes closed, with deep emotional "sinking into" entire albums cannot be pinned down in this type of listening. Timbre & texture, attack & damping, the natural flow of a piece of music over time, and the real touch of air moving in the (perceived) soundstage are only revealed with the extended listening you describe.



That is one of things that astounds me probably the most about listening to music.
Namely the diversity of why we listen and what we listen for.

For me and others (such as yourself) who listen for prolonged periods (such as several whole albums at a time) the 'attraction' is to get sucked into the music, to be immersed in, and get carried away by the emotional and visceral experience that music can provide.

This could be construed as an acquired taste or perhaps just one of several aspects of desirability.
I know that some just want to dance when the tunes be a rock'n.
And I must say that when the music grabs all of my attention, my body does respond, well at least my head and feet do along with other portions of my torso…:atsmile:

And there do seem to be aspects of this experience that can be encouraged or at least engender this desirable degree of immersion that I (and I assume others) seek.
These aspects are, at least in part, what this thread is about.

To be able to share these refinements and tweaks that further enable and engender our playback systems to let us get 'carried away' by the music, to remove as many of the sonic obstacles that obscure this function is my goal.
But that isn't the goal of everyone who listens to music.

And these analytic proclivities of most if not all of us is or can be quite a useful set of tools.
It helps us refine our systems, it gives us the means to determine when these obstacles have been lessened or removed.
This desire to improve the SQ of our systems is what drives many of us to 'fuss with the knobs' so to speak and to truly determine if we in fact can make our systems 'Better'.
I for one know this to be true after many decades of trial and error and experimentation.
And I know I'm not alone in pursuing this hobby in this way.

And granted, not everyone is quite so 'adventurous' and willing to take such risks, but when those of us who do explore the edges of the envelope and then report back with our successes, well it can significantly reduce the risks for those who would like gain the advantages while minimizing the risks. 
Which is yet another aspect to this thread.

But sometimes our analytic curiosity needs to be switched off, to just let go and let the music 'do its thing'.
This is usually quite difficult when our minds are in full ANALYZE mode.

And this too is a goal of mine, to tweak the system to the degree where we 'have no choice' but to drop the minds incessant analytic function because the music is so *IMPERATIVE*, that the body and our focused awareness ‘takes over' and we start to follow along/get carried away/become totally focused in the ongoing NOW moment.
Ofttimes to the exclusion of all else around us.
This too is what this thread hopes to engender.

It can happen when we become so focused in the now moment that we are 'in the zone' or 'the groove' etc., but it can only really happen in the NOW moment, when our mind tracks along with what IS happening in real time vs. trying to make sense of any and every little detail as they occur.
I found this effortless state of awareness a few times while riding, and it is far easier, can be far more frequent and far less dangerous however with headphones on, eyes closed, kicked back in my chair, vs. carving turns, at speed, effortlessly, turn after turn.

This ability to be immersed within/carried away by the *IMPERATIVE* moment by moment aspect of listening to music can be compelling and become highly sought after, once you experience it.

But that is only really possible once you know of it, or about it.
And the 'best' way is due to experiencing it, directly.
Which is yet another aspect of this thread, to plant the seeds of being aware that this type of experience is even possible, just by listening to music.
And then to seek it, if that is a desirable enough goal.

It is and has been for me, for quite a while now… :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> We also compared two of the garage-1217 amps, the Horizon III and the Sunrise III back to back, both running linear power supplies.
> Horizon was using an Acopian 48V LPS with ultra-low power supply noise.
> Sunrise used a Talema 24V LPS with low power supply noise (much less than the original SMPS.)
> And while these are fairly inexpensive outboard P/S’s, they make a significant contribution in SQ.
> ...


 

 I'd love to hear someone chime in with a comparison between the Project's amps and Schiit's Vali 2. The latter is also a tube hybrid, and it seems like the designers paid careful consideration to the design aspects while keeping the costs in check (some ~70$ below Project's amps). In particular, they made sure to use high supply voltage for the little amp. In fact, Jason Stoddard considers 24V almost inadequate for tube amp designs:
_"High Voltage Supplies. To run tubes right, you need high voltages—think hundreds of volts. Tubes need a lot of voltage to run linearly and give their best performance. This means high-voltage capacitors, custom transformers, high-voltage-rated parts, maybe even through-hole parts exclusively, depending on the voltages you’re shooting for. When you’re running 200V rails to get 100V on the plate (like we do in Valhalla 2, Lyr 2, and Mjolnir 2), the whole design is going to be more costly than an amp running 30V or so (a typical solid state design). Unfortunately, many inexpensive tube amps are “starved plate” designs, running at 12-24V…which is a recipe for high distortion and a very colored amp design."_
  
 In contrast, Vali 2 has a whole 60V to play with. Right now I'm torn which one to choose for a tube-amp experience...


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## johnjen

One other difference besides the power supply voltage is the Vali2 uses bipolar output devices whereas the garage amps use mosfets.
Mosfets tend to 'act' more like tubes and usually have higher input impedance's when compared to bipolar devices.

However I'd bet that Schiit explored using mosfets during the design and preferred discrete transistors.

But that would be a good test between those 2 similar designs.

JJ


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## johnjen (May 5, 2017)

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 10 Yet More Useful Terms.*


1st up…
*Threshold of Perceptibility, ToP*
Often when I’m listening for changes, I hear very slight differences, which means they are at the limit of perceptibility.
This is in the range of ≈ 10-20%, which I call the *Threshold of Perceptibility*.
When I hear these levels of change I usually don’t pay too much attention to them.
Why?
Mostly because they aren’t really significant nor meaningful, and certainly not worth the effort to pursue any further.
But, when the differences are greater, when they ‘smack you upside your head’ different, THAT is when there is a change worth pursuing and coming to terms with.
IOW when changes rise well above the *ToP*, that is when further effort/investigation becomes worthy of pursuit.

*Take a Break*
When it gets ‘hard’ to listen, or you’re too easily distracted, or listening is on the verge of being uncomfortable, in any way, but you do anyway, because you want to hear moar…
STOP or turn it down, give your ears a break. Let them ‘rest’ for just a bit, say 20 minutes.
And then resume -
I find this to be very helpful, after resuming listening, to fully enjoying the music once again.

*Holographic, Holo*
When the sonic presentation becomes Holographic this allows ones point of focus to zero in on any voice and all of its related harmonics and follow it with ease, regardless of what else is playing.
And like a laser based hologram, the more dense/true to the source of the original acoustic signal that is being re-created, the moar ‘real’ the experience of listening to music which is being presented to our ears.

*Holo* can be thought of as each voice has a distinct outline or spatial definition which also includes its acoustic space (sound in the room etc).
But this description also applies to the presentation of the entire performance being heard, including all of the acoustic environment.

*Holo* also includes an increased degree of ‘voice’ integrity and spatial stability within the sound stage.
IOW each ‘voice’ has a greater degree of palpability, an increased degree of reach out and touch or feel that ‘voice’ regardless of what any of the other ‘voices’ are doing.
This sense of touching/feeling a voice in 3d mind space is because our perception of its location is so very obvious and easily determined.
It’s like it has solidity or a high degree of tangibility, thus the palpability aspect.

*Spontaneous Emotional Burst, SEB*
After my Rok amp had settled in, an event took place which is the origin of this term *SEB*.
My system elicited/evoked a sudden emotional burst, the likes of which I have NEVER experienced before.
During listening to Beethoven’s 5th an event was triggered when a cello began playing.
It was so real and captivated my auditory senses such that I instinctively reacted.
It was an autonomic reaction when that cello became ‘real’ mostly due to it having a presence so believable that it WAS right in front of me.

In this way *SEB* is related to both *Holo* and *I HEARD* meaning *I HEARD* that cello and it caused a body based reaction, a *SEB*. Which lead to my next re-purposed term…

*I HEARD*
This is a derivation of “I See You” (from the movie Avatar) meaning *I HEARD* that cello.
The experience of hearing the musical instrument was so ‘real’, so thorough and the identification of it was so immediate and complete there was a ‘sudden knowing’ of exactly what and where, with me immediately groking it’s precise nature.

*IMPERATIVE* as in I MUST LISTEN
As I mentioned my first exposure to IMPERATIVE was when I first was exposed/experienced a *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap).
It was a totally unexpected effect/consequence/experience that took me completely by surprise.
I mean there was no getting out of the sweet spot for at LEAST that whole album side, and usually whoever occupied the one totally in focus listening position had to be ‘convinced’ to get out of it.
That isn’t to say the rest of the room sounded bad or wasn’t enjoyable, but…
The sweet spot was killer and it had the same effect I’m experiencing (along with many others these days) of getting ’stuck’ to that one seat.
Only these days while wearing my 800’s it manifests as my next re-purposed word…

*Superglue*
At least I’m not limited to a sweet spot anymore since the sound goes wherever my head resides.
Headphones do that for us… 
The deal is, the sound has become so *IMPERATIVE* any excuse to keep listening is all to quickly snatched up and run with.

It’s like my HP’s are stuck to my head and I can’t (don’t want to) take them off, they be *Superglued* on…

This can (and often does) lead to many a late night followed thereafter (all to soon it seems) by a bleary eyed morning, due to lack of sleep.
And I know I’m not the only one who has experienced this.
The experience of listening and hearing the music becomes so compelling and IMPERATIVE that any excuse to keep listening is all to easily justified.

But there are however contraindications to *SuperGlue*…
I don’t want to put my HP’s on when I know I’ll need to take them off sometime soon.
It’s like it’s too much of a PIA when you know you’re going to have to take them off anytime soon.
It comes down to the point that I’d rather wait until there won’t be any distractions before I even don my HP’s to begin with.
Yeah it’s a PIA, but when they remain on for well over 1/2hr, the ‘full meal deal’ switch gets thrown, and that's when the *Superglue* has fully set and hardened…

And lastly, there is *THE Correct Phase*.
The absolute phase of the entire system is or can be a subtle bit of icing on the cake so to speak.
When paying attention to the ‘proper’ phase during playback, along with the degree of bass extension and response, (which is usually less than subtle) there is a slight shift of the sound stage forward, or backwards, depending.
It seems as though when the ‘voices’ recede away, after changing the absolute phase of the entire system that the system is out of phase with respect to being in phase.

IOW does the music soundstage recede, or come forward?
Forward seem more correct based upon the bass impact and response

Being in *THE Correct Phase* becomes much more important when the degree of bass extension and its visceral impact becomes much more pronounced.
This happens when the *Mighty Impressive/Mandatory Tweaks* are implemented, which is up next.

*End Part 10 

Next up Mighty Impressive/Mandatory Tweaks.*

JJ


----------



## johnjen

While I continue to polish and refine my next 'Better' post, I ran across some interesting insights, thanks to gefski and a recent meetup we had last weekend.

During that get together he talked about the new 'latest thing', that being MQA and how many were going woh…
He later sent me a link to the article he read, and so I did too.
Thanks gefski…!

But one of the reference links made mention of a couple of interesting factoids of note.
Namely, the effect upon the resolution of the sound that increases in distance make.
And indirectly, the relationship that humidity has upon this.

So I pondered about all of this until the light bulb went 'On'.

Specifically, as the distance from the source of the sound to the microphone increases, resolution begins to drop off.
So I reflected this backwards and applied it to headphones vs speakers and that's when the light bulb started to flash.

This in part helps to explain why headphones tend to have 'Better' resolution, inner detail, and why in some cases the results out of a system can be 'intolerable'.
We are about as close to the acoustic source we are hearing as you can get.
And this also helps to explain why IEMs are, or can be even more engaging, since they really are as close as we're ever going to get.

But then I spied that the graph in this one paper mentioned 30% relative humidity…
That darn light bulb had stopped flashing, now it was strobing…

I have mentioned that it seems to take ≈ 1/2 hr for the SQ to take a mother may I step up after 'strapping on the cans'.
And then in ≈ 1-1.5 hrs is when the SQ kicks into overdrive.

So I'm figur'n that between bringing the entire headphone structure (especially the driver itself) up to 'operating temperature' (reaching thermal equilibrium) we are also increasing the relative humidity inside the ear cups as well.
And with increased humidity comes an increase in the density of the air between the driver and our ears.
This has the effect of making the 'column' of air that transfers the acoustic pressure from the driver to our ears more rigid, more dense, more 'solid', and thus able to be more accurately couple and efficiently present the created acoustic energy to us.

Now these effects may be 'small' but when we are working on that last 5 to 15% of sound quality, even 1-3% here, and 2-4% there can add up to significant changes especially when there are several of them and even more so when they overlap and reinforce each other vs just add together.

So here is an experiment to try.

Take note of the time when you put on your headphones and then when you notice the SQ take a step up, again note the time, then when during 2nd album is there another SQ step up?
If so note the time, again.
See if the rough times I mentioned above, coincide with what you noticed.

More food for thought.

JJ
ps the next 'Better' post is a loooong one and I keep finding little snipits of related info to add.


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> This in part helps to explain why headphones tend to have 'Better' resolution, inner detail, and why in some cases the results out of a system can be 'intolerable'.
> We are about as close to the acoustic source we are hearing as you can get.
> And this also helps to explain why IEMs are, or can be even more engaging, since they really are as close as we're ever going to get.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Two questions. These past days in another thread several users seemed to be suggesting the complete opposite when it comes to speakers vs headphones, in the context of comparing DACs:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782824/schiit-fire-and-save-matches-bifrost-multibit-is-here/1830#post_12276723


sheldaze said:


> bigro said:
> 
> 
> > I envy Those Who do not hear much a a difference between DACS or other gear. your wallets must be fat and happy. Bimby vs Modi, Modi 2u and even Bifrost Uber was a very noticeable improvement for me. I did my comparison with speakers, there is a lot that you miss with headphones in my opinion.
> ...


 

 Is it possible that what it really comes down to is the specific characteristics of the chosen transducers _and_ the synergy (or absence thereof) they create in a given system?
  
 Secondly, interesting hypothesis on the humidity. Might explain why long-term listening may provoke different effects in people rather than short-term instantaneous comparisons. One way to test this hypothesis (although I admit it's limited) would be to leave the headphones running for say 2 hours, then strap them on and check how long it takes for the SQ to kick in. If it's instantaneous, then it's simply a matter of the wires reaching thermal equilibrium. If however it still takes 30 min until SQ goes live, then the humidity hypothesis would... err... sound very appealing indeed. (Although some could still argue it's placebo.)


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> Two questions. These past days in another thread several users seemed to be suggesting the complete opposite when it comes to speakers vs headphones, in the context of comparing DACs:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/782824/schiit-fire-and-save-matches-bifrost-multibit-is-here/1830#post_12276723
> 
> Is it possible that what it really comes down to is the specific characteristics of the chosen transducers _and_ the synergy (or absence thereof) they create in a given system?
> ...



*My 800's run more or less 24/7 and it still takes this amount of time before they step up and then later begin to fully 'sing'.
And it could be that my brain just takes this long to fully acclimate, or whatever it does, but I'm not alone in noticing this time to peak level of experience so it would seem that either we all (or at least a bunch of us) need this time for things to synch and 'click', or it 's a function of the thermal/humidity stabilization, but probably both are involved to some degree.

There will always be those who will attribute it to placebo or an equivalent.

I personally trust my hearing, as it's been with me for quite a while now and I have come to know it quite well.
And also having it get 'calibrated' and being able to utilize that ability thru time lends a fair amount of experience to support my trust.
And until this degree of trust is attained it is an easy claim to make about placebo or any number of other rationalizations.

I have a couple upcoming 'Better' posts which go more into these subjects.
I call one Subjectivist vs the Objectivist ‘duality’, and another Auditory Memory

JJ*


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> _*I'd say yes.
> The overall state of tweak of a system can heavily influence the net results.
> Most systems will benefit from removing/ameliorating what I call 'choke points', but all I can do is speculate since I know nothing of the setups that those comments are based upon.
> 
> ...


 

 Ah, interesting! So it is (or could be) indeed related to humidity and the interaction of several factors (brain kicking in, thermal stability, humidity, etc.).
  
 Very much looking forward to the "Subjectivists" vs "Objectivists" post --- should be a fun read. After spending a lot of time reading, analysing and weighing the various arguments, I now have little doubt which camp has little to no link to reality and are vigorously promoting snakeoil. Bringing forth evidence should be feasible; just someone with a good grasp of the methodology needs to sit down and do it, document it extensively and publish it (peer-review or no makes no matter). Otherwise, very curious on Auditory Memory, too. I have my own ideas on how this works, but I'm curious to see what others think.
  
 PS I believe one of the systems mentioned in the speakers comments involved a Bifrost MB & Emotiva Fusion Flex amp & Elac B6.


----------



## landroni

> *My 800's run more or less 24/7 and it still takes this amount of time before they step up and then later begin to fully 'sing'.
> And it could be that my brain just takes this long to fully acclimate, or whatever it does, but I'm not alone in noticing this time to peak level of experience so it would seem that either we all (or at least a bunch of us) need this time for things to synch and 'click', or it 's a function of the thermal/humidity stabilization, but probably both are involved to some degree.*


 

 Actually I think there is a way to check if it's a matter of the brain kicking in, or something else. But you need two identical pairs of headphones. Keep both pairs running for 1-2h, but keep listening only to one of the two. Once you're feeling the SQ kick in and got used to it, switch to the other pair of headphones. If the SQ is still there, then this would suggest evidence for brain burn-in; if SQ is lacking and it's still taking >30 min for it to kick in, then we could with some certainty reject brain burn-in and isolate humidity as a potential factor (possibly in interaction with temperature).


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> Actually I think there is a way to check if it's a matter of the brain kicking in, or something else. But you need two identical pairs of headphones. Keep both pairs running for 1-2h, but keep listening only to one of the two. Once you're feeling the SQ kick in and got used to it, switch to the other pair of headphones. If the SQ is still there, then this would suggest evidence for brain burn-in; if SQ is lacking and it's still taking >30 min for it to kick in, then we could with some certainty reject brain burn-in and isolate humidity as a potential factor (possibly in interaction with temperature).


Given my experience with thermal stabilization I have recognized this same 'pattern' being repeated with my headphones coming into focus in the 30 minute mark.
The additional focus that occurs during the 1-1.5 time frame is a 'new' wrinkle where the additional SQ increase seems to be as much but is even more impressive.
I figure it’s the cumulative effect where as the SQ improves each incremental step up seems even more impressive.

And I know the humidity does increase inside the ear cups, I can feel it.

But your idea of using another set of HP's to 'test' the idea is a good one.
I'll need to devise a setup to test your idea… :thumb

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 11 Mighty Impressive/Mandatory Tweaks.*


This is a long post (one of, if not the longest to date) and involves a whole series of topics. 
My suggestion is to go slow and read it a few times to wrap your head around all of the little details, and there are a veritable plethora of them… 
Also you don’t need to use all 3, as in any combination will also yield impressive results, but if you have HD650/HD800 or any of the rest of the headphones on the sonarworks list, this is a cheap (21 day free trial period) and easy set of tweaks to experience and see if these work for you. 


*Mighty Impressive/Mandatory Tweaks - Are…*
*#1. EQ* done correctly, an example is Sonarworks, which is what I use, there are others.
*#2. Phase Reversal Tweak (PRT).* Fuss with your Fase For Fun… aka. Phase em, Phil
*#3. SubSonic Bass Boost (SSBB). Boom*, Chucka Lucka

These 3 tweaks when implemented together in a system that is capable of delivering low frequency without distortion, can and will deliver a degree of SQ that once experienced is near impossible to give up.
And I do encourage all those who implement these tweaks, in any combination, after getting used to them and fully noticing the differences (i.e. listened to lots of different music you are already quite familiar with) then, disable all of these tweaks and go back to the setup previous to this.

Mostly to learn what the results from these 3 mods truly are.
I have found that this is, really, the best way to know what is truly ‘Better’.
IOW, turn off the mods and notice the differences.

And it should be noted that this is a useful tool, that can be used to ‘zero in’ on the optimal settings for you and your system.
Just turn off the mods and notice the differences.

And I’d be willing to prognosticate that they will be turned back on, and perhaps tweaked, just a tad bit more, and in short order.
Because sometimes even 1 or 2 dB, or a center frequency change of only 1-3Hz and everything can ‘click’ and fall into place.
This where the tweaking, the fussing with the knobs takes place.
And this is where the magic happens, 
when the compensation curves match *to* each other AND to the natural curve of the drivers themselves.

*YeeeeHaaaawww!!!! BOOM Chucka Lucka*

For the first time, on a mass scale, attaining near flat response out of our headphones is now possible, at least for some.
This is whole new territory and we are only at the initial stages of exploring this entire subject of EQ as it applies to headphones.
But the results to date are far beyond most folks wildest imaginations.

And when DSP based *EQ* is used with these other 2 tweaks, the results are addictive and compelling and *IMPERATIVE*, with a generous dollop of *Superglue* tossed into the mix.

As Atomic Bob has stated, he would rather listen to music for his enjoyment on his ≈$1500 system with these tweaks than a top end system without these tweaks and he has immediate access to both at the same time.
And I too would not willingly give up these tweaks, no matter what gear I’m using, as the sum total is far to compelling and necessary in order to hear the music presented this way.

*#1. EQ done right…*
I prefer the Sonarworks *EQ* plugin, mostly because it has a compensation curve which is based upon actual HD800 measurements. And it can be further refined for an ever more exacting match.
But many other parametric *EQ*’s could do a similar job, IF you start with a a known ‘good’ FR curve, and use a good quality parametric *EQ* plug in.
And then fuss with the dials and knobs a whole bunch to dial it all in.
A ways back I did try this approach but it never ‘clicked’ for me and so I abandoned my efforts and settled on just bass boost.

But for me Sonarworks is Way ‘Better’, and much easier to implement.
And Sonarworks has provided average ‘No Limits” curves for the Sennheiser 800 and 650’s. These “no limits” curves are much preferred and make blending the *SSBB* settings much easier and less drastic.
These ‘No Limits’ curves essentially extend the compensation all the way down to 20Hz, which is where the SSBB kicks in and extends the compensation down to below 10Hz.
And I must add I am quite satisfied with the SQ of the Sonarworks plug in, in terms of inner details, focus and resolution and more.

*#2. Phase em, Phil…*
There is however one caveat, the *PRT* does require a balanced connection to the headphones of your choice. 
Those headphones must have a 4 wire cable to the Left and Right earpieces, not a 3 wire. 
Also, a 4 wire retrofit of the connector is actually fairly easy if needed, for most headphones.

But if you already have a balanced headphone cable, this tweak is a plug-n-play operation, once you have a phase reversal cable at hand, or are willing to rewire your balanced cable.
We prefer to use the 4 pin XLR connectors instead of the dual 3 pin XLR type as it makes for a simpler and less cumbersome setup.

What is entailed is making one channel of your system reverse polarized with respect to the other. It doesn’t matter which channel, although I normally use the right channel (R - Reversed) just to keep it straight in my head.

So, to activate *PRT*, in DSP, reverse polarize the right channel and then when the right driver in your headphones is also reversed at either, the end of the main cable, or by adding a Polarity Reversal cable, or by swapping the wires right at the driver, we hear our music in proper polarity.
However all of the analog electronics have the left and right channel polarity out of phase with respect to each other.
What this does is tend to equalize the load on the power supplies. Which in turn means they are ‘stressed’ less so there is less voltage sag during instantaneous transient demand for power.

And when running tubes, with both the left and right channels running in same dual triode or pentode, the common signals between the 2 channels tend to cancel their effect upon each other.
In effect it tends to reduce crosstalk between the 2 channels, and balance out the operation of the tube.

*PRT* has the effect of reducing the 2 signals ability to ‘contaminate’ each other, which in turn means less smearing and tends to lower *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor) among other unwanted factors.
Some of those other sonic effects are increased definition, tonality, and just about all of the terms I have mentioned during this entire ‘Better’ series of posts.
But perhaps it’s largest impact is on the amount of bass the total system can deliver, which usually minimizes the need for adding any more bass.
And sometimes, if this tweak is added last, much of the previously added bass will probably need to be reduced.
So if you’re a bass freq your REALLY gunna love this tweak in particular, but the sum total will probably drop your jaw onto your desk.
So have some bandages handy 

*#3. BOOM Chucka Lucka*
Lastly is the SubSonic Bass Boost *SSBB*
This bit of EQ when added to (or built into the primary EQ) and properly aligned, should extend the FR response down into the sub 10Hz region (1+ octave below ‘audibility’).
This may sound at first like either an unnecessary tweak or perhaps wishful thinking.
As in, there is nothing down at those frequencies so why bother, why even try to bring this portion of the spectrum up to near flat response in the first place?

My answer to that line of inquiry is…
If you have ever heard a system setup like this and played some of the music you are very familiar with and discover that there truly IS music to be enjoyed down at these frequencies, then you will know the full net effect that this last tweak can have.
And it doesn’t really matter if it’s speakers or headphones, when the entire system ‘properly’ couples, as my friend says, “from DC to light”, AND especially when it reaches down into the sub-basement, there is a whole new appreciation for the music you have heard countless times before but are hearing as if it were new, all over again.
Short of that it’s just words on a screen or page.
Experience is the teacher of merit in this case.

But if you need evidence of these low frequency sounds, you can monitor it using an FFT display.
JRiver has an “Analyzer” built into DSP and you can define both the lower and upper limits of the displayed spectrum.
I set my lower limit to 5Hz and then just watch it while playing music.

This last tweak is the icing on the cake, the pièce de résistance, Le Bomba Supreeze, the *BOOM* in the Chucka Lucka.
I never suspected I would EVER hear or more accurately feel, in my body, music with this much definition and detail and visceral impact, from headphones.
Like I said bass freqs are gunna love this.
And this will help make converts out of all of you bass freqs who are still ‘in the closet’, so to speak… 

*SSBB* is accomplished in DSP via parametric *EQ* settings.
Simply add 3-12 dB (or more) of bass boost at 8 - 15Hz with a ‘Q’ of 0.7 to 2.0.
Here are a couple of examples that are in use.
I use 15Hz +4dB and a Q of 1.41
Other user 1: 10Hz +12dB and a Q of 2
Other user 2: 8 Hz +5 dB and a Q of 0.7 
*EDIT: now I'm using 12Hz +16dB and a Q of 0.55*

Of course these are just guidelines, ‘test settings’ to start with, use these to begin fussing with the knobs, for yourself, to see if you can adjust them to best match what works best for you and your system.
And be sure to use the ’Turn It Off’ test just to see where you are…

Note: it may be necessary to reduce input to, and or the output from the Sonarworks EQ plug-in by 3 – 12 dB to avoid an overload condition that may be produced by this boost.
IOW if either the input or the output ‘leds’ at the top of the dancing ‘VU meters’ inside the Sonarworks main window are red, then those channels have been overloaded and you need to correct this condition.
To start, you can ‘reset’ these indicators by simply clicking on them, so they turn green.
Then every once in a while check them to see if they have turned red again.
If so, either the input to the sonarworks plugin or its output, or both, need to be reduced in order to not overload the resulting signals.

So lets start with the input and adjust it using this method…
Note: if the input ‘leds’ don’t turn red then you can skip straight to the output ‘leds’ section below.
#1 In DSP and inside the Parametric Equalizer (the same plug in used to set the *SSBB*) Add “Adjust the Volume”.
#2. change the gain to -3dB (minus 3dB) as a place to start.
#3. Make sure this Parametric EQ plugin is fully activated (√’d).

Then make sure the ‘led’s are green and play some music.
If the input turns red again, reduce the settings to a greater amount (say -6dB)
Then reset all leds’ to green and play music and continue until the input no longer overloads.

Note: I’d also recommend turning off the “Avoid Clipping” function just below output ‘VU meters’ so that you can dial in these settings.

Now if the output ‘leds’ still go red, or if the input never did, here’s how to adjust the output.…
And the output is the easiest to adjust as it’s the slider just to the right of the output ‘VU meter’.
A place to start is with a setting of -6dB .

If you need more help you can ask in this thread and between me and others we’ll be able to help you resolve the situation.

As these tweaks become more refined and work more seamlessly together, the degree of focus, the resolution of the sonic information becomes finer and finer with higher degrees of precision and ‘realness’ (think Phase Δ Reduction thought experiment).
And the bass detail, definition, impact, extension (in both directions) is simply unbelievable, at first, then later it becomes mandatory, when you realize just how far up the frequency spectrum these tweaks extend.
When the ‘Real’ subsonic bass hits, I can feel it in my chest and head, out of headphones. 
I have no idea how this is even possible.

Indeed the last few newly re-purposed terms I have ‘coined’, are all due, in whole or in part are due to the consequences of these 3 tweaks.
Namely, *SEB*, *IMPERATIVE*, *SuperGlue*, *I HEARD*.

These 3 tweaks when used in conjunction are much greater than their mere sum.
Yes it may require a bit of doing (converting your HP cable to balanced, and the need for DSP in the s/w player, and fussing with the *SSBB* settings) but the results are WELL worth the effort, and once experienced it seems they are rather difficult to live without.

They truly are *Mighty Impressive/Mandatory Tweaks*.

ps. just to say these 3 tweaks can be used on any Single Ended OR Balanced amp.
pps. All of this is completely reversible, well except if you added the 4 pin connectors to your existing cable. And even that is functionally ‘transparent’.

*End Part 11* 

*Next up Where is all of this taking us?*


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> And the bass detail, definition, impact, extension (in both directions) is simply unbelievable, at first, then later it becomes mandatory, when you realize just how far up the frequency spectrum these tweaks extend.
> When the ‘Real’ subsonic bass hits, I can feel it in my chest and head, out of headphones.
> I have no idea how this is even possible.


 

 Hmm, is it possible that the brain registers subsonic bass not via the cochlea but, say, via the skin? After all, contrary to supersonic sounds, subsonic sounds must generate quite a lot of (subsonic) energy and move quite a lot of air, quite violently.
  
  
 But then, what components should one use to achieve this? Most DACs, amps and transducers are specced at 20 Hz in the lower bound... Although I notice that the System Synergy components go beyond that:
 Bifrost MB: 20Hz-20KHz, +/-0.1dB, *2Hz*-150KHz,  *-1dB* 
 PS-III: *4 Hz* – 350 KHz (*-3dB*) with 32 Ohm load
 HD650: *10* - 41000 Hz
  
  
 I'm wondering if Jason Stoddard's take on Measurements is relevant here, especially the open-loop section:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/6990#post_11763661


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> *Open Loop Gain, THD, Frequency Response, Slew Rate. *These are the same as the gain, THD, and frequency response measurements outlined in the “what we publish” section above, but applied to the gain stage without feedback, or “open loop.” Since we do primarily discrete designs, and primarily designs that have open-loop bandwidth greater than 20-20kHz, it’s important for us to characterize the designs in an open-loop state. This helps us optimize them for their particular usage. Note that these are early-stage measurements.
> 
> ...


 
  
 He also notes that most Schiit _"equipment is -6dB at 0.16 Hz and 300-500kHz (without input filtering at 150kHz or so, so it doesn’t reproduce AM radio)"_. Of course he focuses here on the high-frequency performance, but it's clear that care is shown to frequency response outside the audible band in both directions.


----------



## ETanner

johnjen said:


> *What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
> or
> It’s all in our heads, or is it?
> 
> ...


Saved for study!


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## johnjen

landroni said:


> Hmm, is it possible that the brain registers subsonic bass not via the cochlea but, say, via the skin? After all, contrary to supersonic sounds, subsonic sounds must generate quite a lot of (subsonic) energy and move quite a lot of air, quite violently.
> *
> I figure it's a combination of our ears, the body, and the brain.
> 
> ...


*In my last post I noted, "…when implemented together in a system that is capable of delivering low frequency without distortion".
This is a necessary prerequisite for these tweaks to be able to deliver the goods so to speak.
Fortunately much of the gear we have access to IS capable of delivering this level of performance.

However when any system is pushed to this degree of bass extension it is a 'wise' thing to pay attention to the 'limits' of the system, especially the possibility of clipping into and out of the DSP portion of the system.

Many songs are 'hot' (close to 0dB during peak passages) so padding down the inputs and or outputs will keep things from digitally 'flat lining', which will be a noticeable deterioration in SQ.

JJ
ps. Yesterday we had a ''secret meet' and several folks got the chance to hear the net effects of these tweaks for themselves. And some only heard 1 or 2 of them.
I'll let them describe what they heard for themselves. *


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## BIG POPPA

Arm chair Quarter Backs just kill me. The guys that ask a million questions but too effin' lazy to find out for themselves, and then question the guys that actually do the research............


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> Actually I think there is a way to check if it's a matter of the brain kicking in, or something else. But you need two identical pairs of headphones. Keep both pairs running for 1-2h, but keep listening only to one of the two. Once you're feeling the SQ kick in and got used to it, switch to the other pair of headphones. If the SQ is still there, then this would suggest evidence for brain burn-in; if SQ is lacking and it's still taking >30 min for it to kick in, then we could with some certainty reject brain burn-in and isolate humidity as a potential factor (possibly in interaction with temperature).



Now that I think on it a bit more, have you noticed this 'time to SQ Tweak' yourself?

If so, you could add more data points to this 'investigation', as can anyone, which I also encourage.
The more the reports the better!

Especially since it's such an easy 'investigation' to determine if this proclivity applies to more than just the few reports I've heard thus far. :atsmile:

JJ


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## johnjen

I find that having a paper copy sometimes is easier to refer to, head scratch with, ponder upon, etc.:atsmile:

JJ


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## DougD

johnjen said:


> I find that having a paper copy sometimes is easier to refer to, head scratch with, ponder upon, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That is in fact exactly what I did. The hard copy will keep bouncing back into the "medium-hot" bin until I figure out exactly how I want to follow-up or explore this. 
  
 I enjoy your posts, and usually read them a couple of times, BTW. (Says a guy with a BiFrost MB, a Project Sunrise III, and Sonarware s/w to go with his HD-650s, a setup that has been featured prominently in this thread, although that is not the only gear I listen to.)
  
 d.d.


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## landroni

> Now that I think on it a bit more, have you noticed this 'time to SQ Tweak' yourself?
> 
> If so, you could add more data points to this 'investigation', as can anyone, which I also encourage.
> The more the reports the better!
> ...


 

 Not yet. As of now my gear is still too lowly to be of any useful contribution to the discussion. Once better gear trickles in though, soon enough, I will start playing around with the various experimental settings and post my findings here. Until then, I'm doing my best to get a good grasp of the theory that is being discussed here... I've said it before and I'll say it again --- excellent research, and keep it coming!


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## johnjen

Thanks!

But even with "lowly" gear, if this thermal/humidity 'theory' is has much if any validity, it should apply to any set of headphones.
At least it's worth a shot to see if you notice any results…

This is a reflection of one of my 'design' intentions.
To be able to apply the results of my investigations to Any set up and for All music.
The great (well recorded etc.), to the simply Ok, to even really poorly recorded music it should all become inviting and even intriguing.

As for my research, I still have ≈ 8 more parts and new topics keep coming up.
My latest is based upon my just having had my 800's tested so I now have 3 sets of measurements to compare and evaluate.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

dougd said:


> That is in fact exactly what I did. The hard copy will keep bouncing back into the "medium-hot" bin until I figure out exactly how I want to follow-up or explore this.
> 
> I enjoy your posts, and usually read them a couple of times, BTW. (Says a guy with a BiFrost MB, a Project Sunrise III, and Sonarware s/w to go with his HD-650s, a setup that has been featured prominently in this thread, although that is not the only gear I listen to.)
> 
> d.d.



With all of the 'clutter' on my desk even a paper copy has FAR less chance of being lost or forgotten/ignored.

Yeah that particular setup is quite amazing once you get it dialed in (good tube, EQ, etc.) and the PRT (not to mention SSBB) will really help the bottom end, as well as the rest of the spectrum all the way up.

Atomic Bob started with an MSD192 dac but 'upgraded' to the Bimby and I agree with him that it is enough of an end game setup for lots and lots of folks.

I just listened to Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" album and there are a couple of cuts where his footfalls make up the beat, and the weight, impact and reverberant harmonics deliver surprising impact. :atsmile:

Just like I like…

JJ


----------



## artur9

atomicbob said:


> I perform voice over editing in languages I don't speak due to my abilities to identify and eliminate mouth noises without degrading the utterances, as verified by production managers that do speak the languages.


 
 When I was but a noob I worked on a speech recognition product.  I made an outtake greatest hits kind of thing of our tester's extraneous utterances to verify that the word detector was correctly rejecting non-words.  
  
 She was so embarrassed about all the sounds that I ended up feeling badly about the whole thing... but not completely.


----------



## bimmer100

big poppa said:


> Arm chair Quarter Backs just kill me. The guys that ask a million questions but too effin' lazy to find out for themselves, and then question the guys that actually do the research............


----------



## BIG POPPA

Y





bimmer100 said:


> big poppa said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


----------



## Barra

The Big Three
  
Alright guys, I did it. 1) SonarWorks, 2) Phase Reversal, and 3) SubSonic Bass Boost. .....................................................
  
  
  
  
Wow, what a difference. I don't know what made the biggest difference as I did it all at once, but now my music has a soul and the instruments have character. What makes my setup different is that I am using the HD700 with a HD800 curve. Doesn't matter, it still sounds awesome. Being able to toggle the SonarWorks on and off, the brightness is lifted and the transparency comes out with the plug in. It takes the bright shelf down to a neutral level and raises the bass a little. However, I am not sure yet what the bass boost and phase reversal are adding to this.
  
Bottom line, everything sounds better now. Now I want to show off my rig where before it would sit un-assembled at meets. I haven't even started tweaking yet to get it perfect. The Jriver and Sonarworks combo is like having a listening laboratory in my office giving me the power to make music breath.
  
Have any of you been working with non-supported headphones? I really want to figure out how to make it work with my LCD2.2.


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## johnjen

These 3 tweaks can all be turned off or on independently of each other.
This way you can determine what each contributes to the whole.
And granted the SSBB and sonarworks 'dovetail' into each other so their combined contribution is more 'impressive' when they are used together.

While the PRT is sort of an independent augmentation to both, as well as the entire system.

JJ


----------



## Torq

While I still need to either make up (maybe tomorrow), or buy one of John's, phase reversal cables, I do have the Sonarworks and SSBB tweaks implemented.  Right now I'm limited to my HD650 with Sonarworks (I've tried my AKG Q701 with the K701 profile and that works quite well also).  The effects of just these two tweaks is quite obvious in terms of how many tracks I did the "just one more track" thing with (John's "superglue" reference).  I'll defer real impressions until I have all three tweaks implemented.
  
 Can't wait to try the Phase Reversal trick on top of this, especially with my LCD-2.2c.
  
 Since I'm on a Mac/OS X and am not a JRiver fan (it's a fantastic tool, I just can't stand the interface and UX library), I thought I'd share how I am implementing the tweaks in case anyone else is interested.
  
 The Sonarworks part is easy as long as you're using a player that supports Audio Units; right now I'm using Audirvana+ which does.
  
 For the SSBB part you can use one of the standard built-in OS X Audio Unit equalizers (at a bit of a push), but I am using DMG's Equilibrium.  It's a bit pricey, but I already had it for my DAW and music creation activities and it was selected after a lot of experimentation and listening to other tools as being the one that consistently, to me, sounded the best.  I think this is the same software that Bob Katz and Tyll Hertsens have been using in their more recent EQ experiment (I know they started with the JRiver options).
  
 Equilibrium also allows me to do the phase reversal trick (it needs to be configured for Left/Right Stereo metering).
  
 DMG have less expensive EQ plug-ins which vary the interface, flexibility and achievable sound quality (Equilibrium is their flagship and designed to run many instances for audio mastering).
  
 If you're using a different Equalizer, then Flux "Stereo Tool v3" is a free way to get phase reversal capability on a per-channel basis.
  
 JRiver is probably less hassle/cheaper - but I just wanted to through this out there for anyone that doesn't care for it's complexity or UX.
  
 ...
  
 A quick aside - I'll be sending in my HD800S (after they finally arrive and I have a little time to listen to them) to get a Sonarworks profile custom calibrated for it which I'll be happy to share if anyone wants it (assuming that doesn't violate some license agreement).  It won't be as broadly useful as one of their averaged profiles for other HD800S units but it will probably be better than using the standard averaged HD800 profile with the S version of the cans.


----------



## johnjen

I too am on Mac and use the JRiver player.
Yeah it’s a pc program thru and thru but the database engines is actually fairly well implemented.
And I found it to sound better than any of the other players I tested it against.
And if it weren't for those 2 aspects I too would be using a less cumbersome player…

But it's good to know other players can be configured to work as well.

As for sending in your 800S's in for measuring, we are planning on sending in a 'batch' of headphones to Sonarworks all at the same time.
Hopefully this will lower the cost of shipping for each of us to get them there.

I also was offered a discount if we send in a bunch of cans all at the same time.
These details need to be worked out when we have a better idea of how many want to participate.

As for using the 'stock' average curves there are 2 'no limits' curves available one for the 650's and the 800's

I can send them to you, and they do 'help', especially with blending the SSBB into the sonarworks curves.

JJ


----------



## Torq

I'm definitely interested in the "no limits" curves for the HD650 and HD800.
  
 I'll keep an eye/ear out for the "batch" shipment of headphones to Sonarworks as well.
  
 Playing with these tweaks and tools some more, I spent the morning investigating ways to incorporate the software parts into OS X players that don't have native Audio Unit (or other) plug-in support.  Specifically "Roon" and "TIDAL", both of which I use a fair bit ... Roon especially, as before starting to play with these tweaks it was my primary music interface (it has nice integration between my local library and TIDAL).
  
 I got it working, but it's fiddly ...
  
 I used an application (technically a kernel extension) called "Loopback" to create a virtual audio device, directed Roon and TIDAL at that, and then used the virtual device as an input to an Audio Unit host (in this case, Apple's "AU Lab").  In AU Lab I added both the Sonarworks and Equilibrium plug-ins, configured them suitably, and off we go.
  
 It's not without issues though.  Both the Loopback software and AU Lab have to be started manually before you load/play from your player, and in AU lab you must select a specific configuration file before it'll do anything - in this case the one I created for the Sonarworks and Equilibrium configuration.  I'm sure I can automate that, but it's still a bit fiddly.  A different AU host might make it easier.  And I could always leave the software running on my non-laptop machines.  Be better if Roon and TIDAL supports plug-ins directly though.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent! :atsmile:

Yeah that is a bunch of fussing with the knobs behind the 'secret' panel and also requiring knowing how to wire the patch panel AND turn it on, everytime.

Not for the 'faint of heart', for sure.

And yeah it would be nice if more players incorporated DSP as a 'normal' function within their operation.
I use Audio Hijack Pro which can access all kinds of DSP functions but the linking of several different apps together, in the correct sequence, and get them all to play well together is a WHOLE nuther matter as well.

And I would REALLY like to be able to prioritize plugins within DSP as well.
This way I could perform certain functions sooner than others and so avoid 'issues'.

But such is not the case, at least yet.

And I just saw this on the roon site.

*"Audiophile Reproduction

The people who recorded your music took great care creating it. We take the same care playing it back, with Direct Mode and Signal Path features. More DSP, format, and streaming protocol support is coming!" 
*

JJ


----------



## ericr

Hey JJ,

My first thought was to send you a PM but then I thought others might benefit from your input. As we discussed at the recent mini-meet I want to give your recommendation of Deoxit a try.

But what package type / application do you suggest?

 - Squeeze Tube
 - Spray
 - Wipes
 - Brush Applicator
 - Pen Applicator
 - Vacuum Tube Survival Kit
 - Bottle with Needle

It seems the spray comes in 5% and 100%. The pen and brush are 100%, while many of the others don't indicate concentration.

Thanks!


----------



## johnjen

I use both the wipes and a spray bottle.
I'd opt for the 100% as the 5% is to weak a solution.

The wipes have just a bit of texture to them to help capture the crud that comes off the contacts.
And they help minimize the amount of DeOxit that winds up on the contact surfaces.

So what I do is spray just one squirt onto a cloth pad and then use the pad to clean the surface of the contacts.
I also cut the cloth pads into smaller shapes to fit into tight spaces (inside rca male connectors and the male pins of xlr connectors), even the IEC ac power connectors and the standard ac power plugs as well.

The pads also work really well on Dimms and other memory chip contacts, like SD cards, usb memory sticks etc.

But keep in mind that the less used the better in terms of effectiveness.

JJ


----------



## Barra

More positive 3 Tweak results:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/612502/sennheiser-hd-700-impressions-thread/5745#post_12315349


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> I use both the wipes and a spray bottle.
> I'd opt for the 100% as the 5% is to weak a solution.
> 
> The wipes have just a bit of texture to them to help capture the crud that comes off the contacts.
> ...




Yep to all of this, here's what's in my cleaning drawer. That's deoxit red and caig pro gold. And pads too like JJ said--cotton makeup pads work well.


----------



## ericr

Thanks guys!

Based on the packaging those pipe cleaners look like they've been around a while.


----------



## johnjen

One of the nifty aspects to the pads is they don't leave any stray bits behind.
They seem to be made of a tight weave that self captures stray threads

This is significant in that bits of cloth or any foreign material can deeply embed itself into crevices and can be a bugger to remove.

JJ


----------



## Barra

SonarWorks LCD2.2 Notes It was suggested that I should go to Tyll's site and compare the LCD2.2 charts to the others supported by SonarWorks to find an appropriate starting point, but I got board and just went into the plugins and tried them all.

*(-) Starting Point*: My starting point was my HD800 optimized setup that I have been using for the HD700 that sounds great with the HD700. My HD800 setup uses all three tweaks including the subsonic lift and the phase reversal. The LCD2.2 sounded interesting with it but it was not an improvement. Preferred with SonarWorks disabled.
*(++) Testing Phase Reversal*: Started by disabling all tweaks to hear the LCD2.2 in my system alone as the SQ basis. Then I added the phase reversal tweak to see what I heard and got a strong positive result. It was not a Sennheiser level change, but none the less, was noticeable with the correct song. The best description would be a tightening of the base where it was great before, but softer without. Going back and forth, I decided that I unquestionably like the tweak SQ improvement and wanted to keep it for the LCD.
*(=) Subsonic Tweak Test*: Then I added a check in the subsonic boost box - "+4.0 dB at 15 Hz (Left,Right)" and couldn't really tell if anything happened. There is a possibility that some of the added thump in the bass comes from this, but not in leaps and bounds. I played a bit with the settings, but ended up coming back to the starting point. It didn't seem to help or hurt so I decided to leave it. 
(+/=/-) *SonarWorks*: Playing with the various plugins, I found that some added positive, while others added negative, and yet others added inconclusive results. The best IMO were the HD650, HD25, and Focal Spirit plug ins providing a reduced treble for a richer mids and more neutral sound stage, but they were not good enough to be worth the effort. Others were just weird sounding. The common results were a reduction in overall volume requiring volume matching to compare and the overall brightness was removed to provide more clarity/focus in the mids. However, the best results still seemed dull compared to being switched off. Where the LCD2.2 seemed a little brighter without SonarWorks. Decided that I would stop trying until someone better suited than me gets better results or SonarWorks begins support. The HD800/700 is breathtaking, the LCD2.2, not so much.
*Conclusion*: Found some pleasing results working with various plugins in combination with the LCD2.2, but the real standout results on the LCD2.2 came from the Phase Reversal tweak. However, the HD700 with SonarWorks and the other two tweaks stands above the LCD2.2 in SQ and fun so the LCD2.2 is likely to collect some dust going forward.


----------



## connieflyer

Barra, I have the 700's and tried the Sonarworks software.  Used the 800's setting.  Tried your tweaks,except the cable, and found the software would not let me select above 1 Q.  Still sounded good, had to do alot of volumn setting input and output, like the way the 700's sound this way.  Tried the 650setting with my 650's but did not like it at all.  Total shift from what I liked with the 650's, but he 700's were fun to tweak and still use your settings for the most part, and I thank you for the heads up.  Using the 21 day trial, but will probably buy it.  Not willing to send my phones all the way over there to have a custom setting for them though.


----------



## johnjen

So an addendum to the triple tweak is in order.

Initial reports back from those who have implemented any, or all 3 tweaks tell me I need to clarify a few things and point at a few hidden gotchya's…

I figured I'd need to fill in some additional details but wanted to wait until more folks had pushed the 'go' button before I added any more insights into and what to pay attention to after the tweaks were running and I had heard some feedback.

#1 on the hit parade is *CLIPPING*

Digital clipping is a relatively benign form of overload condition that sounds like do-do.
Between the 3 tweaks we are adding up to 15+dB (and some may be adding more) boost at the very low end.

This means we can, all to easily, overload the input to the sonarworks, or any other DSP plug-in with a 100% signal.
This is a flat-line condition that sounds just like clipping because, well that's what it is.

When the signal reaches 100% signal level there is no buffer, no wiggle room, no 'easy on the ears' way for a digital signal to do anything but screech and sound just like clipping.

So here's the big picture.

These days our digital systems have lets say 90dB of maximal dynamic range.

Some may be less and some, more but lets use this number as a starting place.

When we have added +15dB of bass boost, that added emphasis is added on top of the 90dB system limitation.
And since the very top of the dynamic range can't go any higher, this added bass boost essentially raises the noise floor instead.
Which means our 'effective' dynamic range has been reduced to 75dB.

And since most of the music has a 'real' dynamic range of ≈ 50 to 60 dB, AT THE VERY MOST (this is a 'hold over' from vinyl which has a much more constricted dynamic range) our systems will still have ≈15+db more head room than any of the music we are likely to hear.
Yes there can be exceptions but if you have a cd based music collection, these numbers generally apply.

And these numbers are 'worst case' numbers since we probably don't need to 'throw away' all of that 15dB.
I find all I need to do is reduce ≈ -6dB on the output from the Sonarworks EQ and perhaps 3dB to it's input which is only 9dB total (not 15dB) to 'throw away' from our system's maximal dynamic range.

NOTE: Be sure to turn off the *"avoid clipping"* function inside sonarworks as it will 'throw away' as much as 24dB which is excessive and unnecessary.

But and this is the gotcha.

Once all of the tweaks go in, especially the sonarworks (or some other means of monitoring for an overload condition) then you can look to see if any further corrective action is needed (reducing either the input to or output from or to any of the DSP functions, like sonarworks).

As long as sonarworks is last on the list (assuming the DSP plug-in functions are run sequentially, from the start of the list to the bottom) then it can be used as a gauge to see if the digital signal is in an overload condition (ie. Clipping is occurring).

If there IS Clipping in the digital domain it is going to try to overload the rest of your system, or at least it's going to sound like it's overloaded, and unless you have a system with TONS of headroom, the analog portion of the system will add even more distortion to the digital clipping.

So be aware that clipping in the digital domain may be happening and this condition should be addressed and fixed.
So refer to the original post that outlines how to adjust the input and output levels so clipping doesn't occur.

As other factors come up I'll address then here in this thread.
So go ahead and ask if you have any questions.

JJ


----------



## hekeli

johnjen said:


> So, to activate *PRT*, in DSP, reverse polarize the right channel and then when the right driver in your headphones is also reversed at either, the end of the main cable, or by adding a Polarity Reversal cable, or by swapping the wires right at the driver, we hear our music in proper polarity.
> However all of the analog electronics have the left and right channel polarity out of phase with respect to each other.
> What this does is tend to equalize the load on the power supplies. Which in turn means they are ‘stressed’ less so there is less voltage sag during instantaneous transient demand for power.


 
  
 Is there more literature and science behind this? I just can't wrap my head around how this is supposed to help in real life, unless you are playing maybe sine waves and have extremely poor amp.


----------



## MrSlim

Most consumer products are built to a price point and as a result there has to be a point where "good enough", is good enough. There is no room for parts such as a power supply to be over-built. Most commercial amps benefit from a more robust power supply(see the discussion re the Sunrise power supply replacement). The phase reversal tweak works because you are spreading the load of a particular(bass really) transient across both power supply rails, therefore reducing the stress on just one rail. Of course a pure sine wave would show the benefit, but what is music anyway but a variable frequency and variable amplitude sine wave ?

Back in the old days  I built a capacitor bank to add to the power supply of a Dynaco ST-150 amp.. it was the same size as the AMP itself. It provided a major improvement in the amp's bass capabilities.


----------



## hekeli

It's a cheap thing so I'll try to test it, if I manage to make an adapter.
  
 Just the physics interest me in a good way, how does the amp portion know what polarity is the modified incoming digital channel, why the rails magically spread it, and what's with the expectation that all these "hungry" transients always occur on the same millisecond(?) on both channels. After all we are talking about some milliwatts for headphones and not a huge PA, how do modern 1U digital amps handle several kW of massive subwoofer bass, but even physically larger amps seem to struggle with headphones. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway I'm happy to read any reference stuff and learn if you have good links, no need to start writing chapters here if it's not easily explainable..


----------



## hekeli

Also, if you have a bal-bal amplifier, can you not achieve the same by reversing polarity on the other XLR input channel physically instead of DSP? If this is the case and advantageous, why do not all amps do this by default? Or is it something that some already implement in some topologies?


----------



## Barra

connieflyer said:


> Barra, I have the 700's and tried the Sonarworks software.  Used the 800's setting.  Tried your tweaks,except the cable, and found the software would not let me select above 1 Q.  Still sounded good, had to do alot of volumn setting input and output, like the way the 700's sound this way.  Tried the 650setting with my 650's but did not like it at all.  Total shift from what I liked with the 650's, but he 700's were fun to tweak and still use your settings for the most part, and I thank you for the heads up.  Using the 21 day trial, but will probably buy it.  Not willing to send my phones all the way over there to have a custom setting for them though.


 
 Glad it worked for you on the HD700s. I tried the LCD2.2 and did't like the results either, but seemed like it was good enough that an optimized plugin might work well. Haven't heard the HD650s yet, but the 650 plugin worked best with the LCDs. The phase reversal tweak did make a difference with the LCD2.2 though so I is a great tweak even without the SonarWorks. In the end, I am having more fun with the HD700s than my previous favorite LCDs. This is addicting enough that I may have to get an HD800 in the future to see how much further I can go.


----------



## Torq

barra said:


> Glad it worked for you on the HD700s. I tried the LCD2.2 and did't like the results either, but seemed like it was good enough that an optimized plugin might work well. Haven't heard the HD650s yet, but the 650 plugin worked best with the LCDs. The phase reversal tweak did make a difference with the LCD2.2 though so I is a great tweak even without the SonarWorks. In the end, I am having more fun with the HD700s than my previous favorite LCDs. This is addicting enough that I may have to get an HD800 in the future to see how much further I can go.


 
  
 None of the standard Sonarworks profiles did anything favorable for my LCD-2.2 either (not that I was surprised).  When my LCD-4 come in (next week I'm told) the 2.2 will be heading off to get calibrated just for fun.
  
 I have, subsequently, played around with Equilibrium an doing some EQ'ing with the LCD-2.2 (beyond the SSBB part) to see what sort of results I could get.  I had some interesting results there, which are, as you'd expect, quite clearly audible, but so far I've not come up with a curve that makes me enjoy music with the LCD-2.2 more than I do with them configured as stock.
  
 Also, the volume reduction you experienced threw me for a moment or two as well.  It wasn't until I realized that the "avoid clipping" setting was reducing the input levels by whatever the highest level of EQ boost that profile was applying (about 11.7 dB for the HD-650 at the highest frequencies) that I turned it off, and ran some more music with serious transients and peaks to see how far I could raise that setting and still not clip (the latching clipping indicators make this pretty easy).  Which is, of course, what @johnjen is talking about in his post on clipping.


----------



## BIG POPPA

hekeli said:


> Also, if you have a bal-bal amplifier, can you not achieve the same by reversing polarity on the other XLR input channel physically instead of DSP? If this is the case and advantageous, why do not all amps do this by default? Or is it something that some already implement in some topologies?


Circuits are like religion. Some designers only believe in certain circuit designs. Where as DIYers will try anything that might make it sound better.


----------



## Torq

hekeli said:


> It's a cheap thing so I'll try to test it, if I manage to make an adapter.
> 
> Just the physics interest me in a good way, how does the amp portion know what polarity is the modified incoming digital channel, why the rails magically spread it, and what's with the expectation that all these "hungry" transients always occur on the same millisecond(?) on both channels. After all we are talking about some milliwatts for headphones and not a huge PA, how do modern 1U digital amps handle several kW of massive subwoofer bass, but even physically larger amps seem to struggle with headphones.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The amp doesn't need to "know" anything, it simply applies gain to the incoming signal which is an offset from 0v either towards the positive or negative rail.  If you invert the polarity of an incoming channel, either via DSP or by swapping your input +/- terminals, then what would have yielded a positive offset now yields a negative one.  No magic required.
  
 Transients tend to hit both channels at the same time as a function of how the music was recorded or mastered.  Unless a given sound is restricted to a specific channel, it'll be audible, at (physical or artificial propagation delay and volume decay depending) about the same time, on other channels.
  
 The significance of the amount of power being utilized is relative to the size of the load the amplifier is designed to be able to drive.  If you're specified for far more power than you'll ever need (huge headroom) then the effect would be much smaller than having a more typical, proportional, design.  Otherwise a 100mw peak is still 66% of the power of a 150mw capable amplifier.
  
 How do modern 1U digital amps handle several kW of subwoofer bass?  (Not fantastically in my experience, but that's another matter!  ) ... In seriousness ... bear in mind speakers tend to be much lower impedance than headphones, and the bigger the speaker driver generally the lower the impedance.  Lower impedance means higher realized power output.  Look at Schiit's Ragnarok for example: 100W into 4 ohms, but by the time you're driving a pair of HD-650 you're only going to see about 1.7W.
  
 And yes, if you have balanced inputs and outputs, you can achieve the same effect without DSP by swapping polarity at the input to the amp and then again for the appropriate channel at the headphone/cable.


----------



## johnjen

hekeli said:


> Is there more literature and science behind this? I just can't wrap my head around how this is supposed to help in real life, unless you are playing maybe sine waves and have extremely poor amp.


*No I don't know of any other info regarding this.
There was a subwoofer that used this approach but I don't know of anyone using this for the entire audio bandwidth.*



hekeli said:


> It's a cheap thing so I'll try to test it, if I manage to make an adapter.
> 
> Just the physics interest me in a good way, how does the amp portion know what polarity is the modified incoming digital channel, why the rails magically spread it, and what's with the expectation that all these "hungry" transients always occur on the same millisecond(?) on both channels. After all we are talking about some milliwatts for headphones and not a huge PA, how do modern 1U digital amps handle several kW of massive subwoofer bass, but even physically larger amps seem to struggle with headphones.
> 
> Anyway I'm happy to read any reference stuff and learn if you have good links, no need to start writing chapters here if it's not easily explainable..


*As was mentioned by Torq the amp doesn't 'know' anything about this, it's just a signal passing thru.

My supposition is that musical transients being rather complex harmonic relationships present a 'challenge' to active stages and the power supply that feeds them.
This tweak reduces the instantaneous demand of the power supply in an ongoing basis, since the demand instead of being all positive or all negative (in any given moment) is now split between both rails.
Which in turn means the power supply responds in a more balanced manner, in an ongoing way.

But there is also the crosstalk aspect where (especially in tubes) both channels are actively modulating the internals of the tube, at the same time.
By reversing the phase of the 2 channels this crosstalk factor tends to self cancel and so each channel remains less effected by the signal from the other channel, again in an ongoing and real time way.

This also applies to SS designs but since the 2 channels are usually separated further apart this crosstalk factor seems to be less significant.

As for big power amps this tweak would also help them assuming they are stereo and not mono amps.
And I truly wish I had the instrumentation to be able to investigate this more fully and try and figure out why this tweak is so effective in our very low power systems.
The conventional thinking is that if I'm using, during extreme peaks, say 100mW to drive my HD800's, (3-600Ω load) from my Rok amp (max power is 1700 to 850 milliwatts) then this PRT really shouldn't make much if any difference.
Except it does. :headscratch

*


hekeli said:


> Also, if you have a bal-bal amplifier, can you not achieve the same by reversing polarity on the other XLR input channel physically instead of DSP? If this is the case and advantageous, why do not all amps do this by default? Or is it something that some already implement in some topologies?


*I chose to use the s/w approach for these write-ups because it can be simpler, at least for some to implement.
This tweak also applies to the dac and its power supply and the lessening of crosstalk since the signal that it creates is also phase reversed.

But mostly it’s the power amp and line level sections that seem to benefit the most from this tweak.

I suspect that if the manufacturers started implementing this, internally at the design level, many users would get totally confused and start BMW'ing (Bitching, Moaning, Whining).
And there are some some situations where this would make some setups 'more complicated'.

So it's left to us DIY'rs to explore and implement and play with.

And for those who are handy with a soldering iron it can be enabled fairly easy just to see if the results are 'Better' or not.

Thus far I have not run into any system where this PRT all by itself, doesn't help, of course assuming it is implemented correctly.

JJ*


----------



## johnjen

I'm hopping that we can send in a 'variety' of other HPs to get some curves for them, so we can begin to use them with a better match inside of the sonarworks plug-in.

Audeze's, HiFi Man, etc are all missing from their available averaged HP list.

I know my modded 800's no longer 'fit' the stock 800 curve, even though the averaged (and no limits) curve works fairly well.
But recently I'm playing with EQ to adjust the mid range to better match up my 800's

I just wish there was a way to NOT have to ship them to Latvia.
Besides the time frame (2+ weeks) and cost ($300+) there is the real issue of damage or getting lost or stolen etc.

Ahhhh, the horror stories that I've heard…

JJ :atsmile:


----------



## connieflyer

Have been playing around with the 700's and the 800 curve, thought I would try the 650's and 65' curve and did not like it at all.  But plugged my 700's back in with the 650 curve and played around with settings, and like what I hear.  In JRIver I use the -6 Tilt and +3 bass boost.  Can you tell me what the wet/dry button does, could not find anything on their site about it.  With this setting am not using any other tweaks and it sounds a little flatter in the treble and base is good and tight.  Listening to Two Steps from Hell-Icarus and lots of soundstage.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Miller and Kreisel did the Push Pull Phase Reversal with the Subs in 1989. You can check it out here http://www.kreiselsound.com/timeline.php . So when John brought it to my attention, was very familiar with it. Now I'm tweaking it a little different than JJ on my rig.


----------



## johnjen

This is kewl as Schiit…

If you are in anyway interested in tubes, ya gotta watch this.

https://youtu.be/8n4WVRKkmww

JJ


----------



## johnjen

connieflyer said:


> Have been playing around with the 700's and the 800 curve, thought I would try the 650's and 65' curve and did not like it at all.  But plugged my 700's back in with the 650 curve and played around with settings, and like what I hear.  In JRIver I use the -6 Tilt and +3 bass boost.  Can you tell me what the wet/dry button does, could not find anything on their site about it.  With this setting am not using any other tweaks and it sounds a little flatter in the treble and base is good and tight.  Listening to Two Steps from Hell-Icarus and lots of soundstage.


The wet/dry 'ratio' is the amount of the EQ curve that is passed on to the rest of the digital stream.

In effect it can lower how much of the EQ 'contribution' you want to add, down from 100%.
IOW it’s a volume control for the EQ curve you have created.

And playing around with the tilt and bass boost controls is a good way to be able to 'adjust' the total impact that any curve will make on your headphones.

And remember as you change ANYTHING in sonarworks it should also change the SSBB settings, since the goal is to match where and as these 2 EQ settings blend together.

Which means as one EQ setting falls off it should mate up with next EQ curve as the frequency rises (or falls).
Just like a crossover curve on speakers.

So as the amount or frequency of the SSBB is adjusted it will 'match up' with the no limits curve at different places on the sonarworks curve.

JJ


----------



## hekeli

johnjen said:


> And I truly wish I had the instrumentation to be able to investigate this more fully and try and figure out why this tweak is so effective in our very low power systems.
> The conventional thinking is that if I'm using, during extreme peaks, say 100mW to drive my HD800's, (3-600Ω load) from my Rok amp (max power is 1700 to 850 milliwatts) then this PRT really shouldn't make much if any difference.
> Except it does. :headscratch


 
  
 Thanks everyone, seems interesting enough. Need some find some plugs now and try with my nfb-1amp, which should have plenty of power too heh..


----------



## DougD

johnjen said:


> This is kewl as Schiit…
> 
> If you are in anyway interested in tubes, ya gotta watch this.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I ever complain about the price of quality tubes, somebody please kick me. (But I don't think it will be necessary.)


----------



## Barra

big poppa said:


> Miller and Kreisel did the Push Pull Phase Reversal with the Subs in 1989. You can check it out here http://www.kreiselsound.com/timeline.php . So when John brought it to my attention, was very familiar with it. Now I'm tweaking it a little different than JJ on my rig.


 
 Wow, that is really interesting. I have their MK sub as you can see in my signature and can tell you that I have yet to hear another sub that beats it in terms of clean, hard hitting bass with none of the typical fuzz, vibration, or excess noise that come from lessor subs. Whats funny is that I knew that it was their sealed chamber dual speaker push pull tech that provided the enhanced SQ, but I didn't know until you pointed this out that it was also a phase reversal tech that was responsible. My MK is almost three decades old and makes my new BW sub sound like sh_ _ in comparison. No wonder!


----------



## Barra

johnjen said:


> This is kewl as Schiit…
> 
> If you are in anyway interested in tubes, ya gotta watch this.
> 
> ...


 
 Seems easy enough, are you going to try making some?


----------



## MrSlim

johnjen said:


> I'm hopping that we can send in a 'variety' of other HPs to get some curves for them, so we can begin to use them with a better match inside of the sonarworks plug-in.
> 
> Audeze's, HiFi Man, etc are all missing from their available averaged HP list.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have been looking at headphone equalization for some time now and was interested in Sonarworks as well, but was put off by the fact that they didn't have the K601 on their list, which would have required a custom measurement.  
  
 I also looked into the DIY equalization thread, but being the mostly lazy sort, decided there had to be a better way.  That is when I stumbled onto Tyll's headphone measurement project on Inner Fidelity.  He is trying to measure as many Headphone models as possible and is doing it for free!   He/Inner Fidelity will even pay the UPS shipping both ways if you are located in the US, for any models he has not already measured.  Since you have a modified 800, he may be willing to measure it as a distinct model with mods. If you haven't seen it already, here's the list of headphones that he has already measured: http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads.  
  
 I sent Tyll my K601's and they are now part of the list.  I now have a baseline measurement to work with and have been looking at purchasing the headphone EQ VST from MathAudio http://mathaudio.com/headphone-eq.htm.
  
 Then I would use the process discussed here: 
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-bob-katz-eqing-headphones-harman-target-response#g3fLpJ1GGmo4UiQV.97 to come up with the EQ differences required to match the measured response to the Harman Target response.


----------



## johnjen

barra said:


> Seems easy enough, are you going to try making some? :blink:


hahahahahahahahaha

I'd need a MUCH bigger house and lab…

JJ :atsmile:


----------



## johnjen

mrslim said:


> I have been looking at headphone equalization for some time now and was interested in Sonarworks as well, but was put off by the fact that they didn't have the K601 on their list, which would have required a custom measurement.
> 
> *I too have been fussing with adding EQ to my setup.
> I tried several free and commercial parametric EQ plug-ins but none of them 'clicked' for me, they just didn't really seem to help all that much.
> ...



*Thanks for that link, it looks very promising, and I'll fuss with it as my next EQ experiment.

But one of the more interesting aspects that I have been striving for and have gotten much closer to, is being able to bring up the very bottom end to near flat.
This, once its properly blended into the rest of the spectrum yields rather spectacular results, and in ways that can be quite surprising.
This was my primary emphasis and goal, and the PRT helps enable all of this by 'helping' the amp deliver this low frequency with much greater focus and power.

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely see if I can use it on my Mac

JJ*


----------



## johnjen

mrslim said:


> snip
> I sent Tyll my K601's and they are now part of the list.  I now have a baseline measurement to work with and have been looking at purchasing the headphone EQ VST from MathAudio http://mathaudio.com/headphone-eq.htm.
> 
> Then I would use the process discussed here:
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-bob-katz-eqing-headphones-harman-target-response#g3fLpJ1GGmo4UiQV.97 to come up with the EQ differences required to match the measured response to the Harman Target response.


I downloaded the plugin and played with it a bit.
It is primarily an EQ resonance reduction package.
It will only cut (not boost) frequencies.
And the type of filters available (just one) is fairly limiting as well.

I have been using Toneboosters TB FLX4 plugin which has a TON of different filters but only can have 6 filters used at a time to play with.
Fortunately that is enough for me to compensate the midrange of my modded 800's.

And the interaction between these different filter types can be quite dynamic and useful when trying to mimic actual response curves.



And it has lots of 'control' so the amount of compensation can be 'dialed in'
And it only costs ≈ $23.

JJ


----------



## MrSlim

johnjen said:


> I downloaded the plugin and played with it a bit.
> It is primarily an EQ resonance reduction package.
> It will only cut (not boost) frequencies.
> And the type of filters available (just one) is fairly limiting as well.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for letting me know about the MathAudio limitations. Have you looked at this: https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ ?  It looks interesting, but I expect only has one type of filter as well..


----------



## connieflyer

I have been using this plug-in for JRiver for quite awhile, works well, and free also.
  
http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html
  
 Lots of other free audio plugins as well on same page.  Worth a look


----------



## landroni

barra said:


> Wow, that is really interesting. I have their MK sub as you can see in my signature and can tell you that I have yet to hear another sub that beats it in terms of clean, hard hitting bass with none of the typical fuzz, vibration, or excess noise that come from lessor subs. Whats funny is that I knew that it was their sealed chamber dual speaker push pull tech that provided the enhanced SQ, but I didn't know until you pointed this out that it was also a phase reversal tech that was responsible. My MK is almost three decades old and makes my new BW sub sound like sh_ _ in comparison. No wonder!


 

  


johnjen said:


> *But one of the more interesting aspects that I have been striving for and have gotten much closer to, is being able to bring up the very bottom end to near flat.
> This, once its properly blended into the rest of the spectrum yields rather spectacular results, and in ways that can be quite surprising.
> This was my primary emphasis and goal, and the PRT helps enable all of this by 'helping' the amp deliver this low frequency with much greater focus and power.*


 
  
 When I started my journey in audiophile world, a fellow head-fi'er has kept praising the Denon D7000 (and not far behind Fostex TH-900 and Hifiman HE-6) as THE bestest headphones they have ever experienced. One of the reasons was _proper_ low-end performance, insisting that Fostex/Denon did _deep, clean and clear bass_ better than anybody. It seems that bass quality is one of the things done poorly most of the time in full-size headphones, since it's quite hard to reproduce that wide of a range on one driver (as 99.99% of full size headphones do). Indeed: "Since it's hard to reproduce low bass on small drivers without distortion most headphone companies (even flagship ones) seem to just give up." And curiously: "_When done properly low bass adds a real sense of scale and depth to music_."
  
 My takeway from this is that clean, crisp low-end performance is missing in a majority of headphones (of course standard Stoddard disclaimer applies: "This is my opinion, I am biased like everyone else, and I haven’t heard everything", YMMV, etc.). And my takeaway from JJ's three tweaks (Sonarworks, SSBB and PRT) is -- partly -- to digitally compensate for unsatisfactory low-end performance in headphones... Actually I'm suspecting that SSBB is designed to make very low-end frequencies audible, since most headphones would have a pronounced roll-off below 20 Hz. (This also got me thinking into HOW low-end audibility has been tested, with 15-20Hz being often cited, and some studies reporting up to 12 Hz audibility in "ideal lab conditions"... If the tests are in a lab using amplified sounds via transducers, wouldn't widespread poor bass performance potentially bias the measurements?)
  
 So pumping dB into the <20Hz frequencies would presumably compensate for the roll-off in that region. From what I see from equal loudness curves, higher dB make very low-end frequencies more audible similarly to how higher dB make very high-end frequencies more audible (up to what I call the coffin corner):


  
 So I'm wondering how a 3-way tweaked HD650/HD800 would compare with, say, a D7000 or TH-900 (3-way tweaked or stock)... Would bass performance account for perceived improvement from these tweaks? Put differently, do the tweaks digitally compensate for common lower-end technological deficiencies in transducers? The more dB in SSB is intuitive enough; the PRT seems designed to improve bass, as suggested by the M&K MX-100 comments; and Sonarworks works all around the FR, including low-end performance...
  
 PS For fun, here's a list of "best bass headphones", which unsurprisingly feature D7000 and TH-900 in the top of the list:
 http://www.head-fi.org/a/the-best-bass-headphones-a-head-fi-wiki


----------



## johnjen

mrslim said:


> Thanks for letting me know about the MathAudio limitations. Have you looked at this: https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ ?  It looks interesting, but I expect only has one type of filter as well..


It looks to be a windows only product.
I run on a Mac Pro…

I can't get there from here… :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## johnjen

connieflyer said:


> I have been using this plug-in for JRiver for quite awhile, works well, and free also.
> 
> http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html
> 
> Lots of other free audio plugins as well on same page.  Worth a look


That looks like a good general purpose EQ and the price certainly is right.

And yeah there are a TON of free plug-ins available.
I've gone thru a bunch of them trying to find one to allow me to 'shape' the curves to match up with actual response curves instead of using fixed shape filters that don't really match up well.

And even then it can take a bunch of attempts to dial it all in.
I'm right now on attempt #8 with the curve I posted.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> snip
> My takeway from this is that clean, crisp low-end performance is missing in a majority of headphones (of course standard Stoddard disclaimer applies: "This is my opinion, I am biased like everyone else, and I haven’t heard everything", YMMV, etc.). And my takeaway from JJ's three tweaks (Sonarworks, SSBB and PRT) is -- partly -- to digitally compensate for unsatisfactory low-end performance in headphones... Actually I'm suspecting that SSBB is designed to make very low-end frequencies audible, since most headphones would have a pronounced roll-off below 20 Hz. (This also got me thinking into HOW low-end audibility has been tested, with 15-20Hz being often cited, and some studies reporting up to 12 Hz audibility in "ideal lab conditions"... If the tests are in a lab using amplified sounds via transducers, wouldn't widespread poor bass performance potentially bias the measurements?)
> 
> So pumping dB into the <20Hz frequencies would presumably compensate for the roll-off in that region. From what I see from equal loudness curves, higher dB make very low-end frequencies more audible similarly to how higher dB make very high-end frequencies more audible (up to what I call the coffin corner):
> ...



There is bass and then there is music which has its 'foundation' and starts in the SubSonic region of the audible spectrum.

I figure most have never heard what articulate, precise, detailed and tonally accurate bass can provide, simply because it's so difficult to generate and blend into the rest of the spectrum.
And to me it doesn't matter what the means to achieving these goals entails, speakers, HP's, vinyl, digital.
I'm pursuing this in the digital domain because it's Much less costly, complex, and accords a 'different' range tweaks that can get me closer and faster than my previous attempts.

And getting speakers or HP's to thump or whump is relatively easy.
And I have to say I never expected to be able to achieve the results I'm getting out of HP's.
And I'll be the first to say I don't claim to have achieved fully tweaked "articulate, precise, detailed and tonally accurate bass" but I'm much closer than I've ever been.

For me when the bass is heard as a musical note, with it's harmonics and the acoustic space properly aligned and focused to and with each 'voice', then I know I'm close.

The thing is, when the bass does get properly coupled, it adds a degree of 'realness' to just about every 'voice', and that once heard seems to be immediately noticed, enjoyed and appreciated.

This is my aim with all of this, and it matters not how I (or anyone else) 'get(s) here' (what equipment, or setup is involved) as long as this degree of musical involvement becomes apparent and is quickly followed by *IMPERATIVE* and all the other subsequent aspects (like *SuperGlue* and *I HEARD* etc.) that result as a consequence of 'getting there'.

The technical stuff is fun to play with but as I see it, it's just the means to an end.

IOW if Dennons or AKG's or HD650's can achieve this degree of direct personal involvement with and IN the music, that works for me as well.
I'm using the gear I have in a very simple system, so as to not complicate even further, an already complex situation.
That doesn't mean I haven't fussed, tweaked and explored all of the parameters that are part of this simple system (power, cables, vibration management etc.) as well.
I have, and will continue to do so.

But it's all a way of achieving a direct musical experience, one that I know exists, because I have heard it before and these 'tools' are very useful in helping to getting back to it.

Think of all of this as tools to use to help tweak anyone's system.
Some tools work well, some don't apply, others simply can't be used etc., but using the equipment you already have and tweaking the setup to improve the acoustical presentation, by using these tools, in any way, it is possible to achieve Mighty Impressive Results.

JJ


----------



## MrSlim

johnjen said:


> It looks to be a windows only product.
> I run on a Mac Pro…
> 
> I can't get there from here… :atsmile:
> ...



Oops, I should have remembered, since you'very mentioned that in many of your posts in this thread. I'm blaming vacation brain and not enough margaritas (just discovered this fabulous from scratch recipe... to bad limes back home are so expensive....)


----------



## johnjen

Perhaps it will prove useful for someone else, having access to 'resources' is always a good thing! 

So for me once I get a curve that works, the next level to take this to, is to try the 'high priced' parametric EQ's (Equilibrium etc.) just to see if they are sonically 'Better', (as some have suggested), or not.

But man is it (Eqilibrium) Much more complex with pro level features and functions I'll NEVER want, need, or use.

Even the Tonebooster plug-in I'm using has a bunch of features, like compression, I don't need.
But at least it was fairly easy to learn how to use and flexible enough to actually create a curve that matches an existing curve instead of an 'approximation' or worse, not a very good match at all.

This whole EQ thing is really new and we who are playing around with it are the explorers. 

JJ


----------



## Solrighal

Greetings folks!
  
 I'm new to this thread so please cut me some slack. I was happily using Sonarworks in my system and then @johnjen cut into the HD 650 thread to tell everyone about the 'No Limits' profile. I took the bait and so here I am. I'm currently listening to the best sound via headphones I've ever experienced. Thanks guys.


----------



## connieflyer

Hope Spain is everything you are looking for and enjoy it.  Sonarworks is pretty good, I have been experimenting with it following it to this thread with @johnjen also.  I don't use the 650's anymore, gave them up about month and a half ago, using the 700's now and they are so much richer.  I use the Senn 800 curves on Sonarworks and use the mods that @johnjen stated, and then experimented from their.  Good luck with the future, Don and welcome


----------



## BIG POPPA

I use the hd700's and do agree they are a little richer. I have them dialed in. And I adjust Sonarworks a few times until the rig focus'. Turn the bass down and scaled it back at the flick of the power switch, then about 45-60 min upen it up a bit. Then between 2-3 hours I finally got the rig warmed up and focused. Then I really push Sonarworks. My hand knows what to do and I really don't think about it. Just normal stuff every night. I was asked how do I handle listening fatigue? I answered what is that? I said the rig is sooo dialed in, that never comes up. Also usually have new music to listen to. So always have the bases covered.


----------



## johnjen

solrighal said:


> Greetings folks!
> 
> I'm new to this thread so please cut me some slack. I was happily using Sonarworks in my system and then @johnjen
> cut into the HD 650 thread to tell everyone about the 'No Limits' profile. I took the bait and so here I am. I'm currently listening to the best sound via headphones I've ever experienced. Thanks guys.


Greetings and welcome!
And as I mentioned in post #1, I aim to have this thread achieve Smack Down Free Zone status.

Sonarworks got me started on *EQ*, again. I had given up on it and was just using a variation of *SSBB*.
Well I was also using the *PRT* and when I got the no limits compensation curve and adjusted the *SSBB* to blend, well things just went 'click'.

Right now I'm experimenting using 5 different plug-in 'corrections', all aimed at tweaking different portions of the re-creation of the acoustic presentation.

But Sonarworks was the match that lit the fire, so to speak.

Sharing our results to achieve '*Better*' is my hope such that even those with 'non-supported' headphones can gain the advantages of '*Better*'.
Sonarworks is the first EQ that brought me 'Better' and in no uncertain terms.

But when all three of the tweaks are activated and dialed in the results can be, well, captivating.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

connieflyer said:


> Hope Spain is everything you are looking for and enjoy it.  Sonarworks is pretty good, I have been experimenting with it following it to this thread with @johnjen also.  I don't use the 650's anymore, gave them up about month and a half ago, using the 700's now and they are so much richer.  I use the Senn 800 curves on Sonarworks and use the mods that @johnjen stated, and then experimented from their.  Good luck with the future, Don and welcome


One thing I haven't emphasized is the use of the wet/dry control inside Sonarworks.

But also know as you adjust any of these adjustments that can and will call for adjustments elsewhere (SSBB, tilt, bass boost etc.) that is if you want to find the sweet spot again.

The Wet/Dry control can be very helpful when using a compensation curve on a different HP than its was generated for.

JJ


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## Solrighal

I have a question. I'm using JRMC and as well as the Sonarworks VST I'm using the buit-in parametric EQ. Where should I place the EQ in the stack? Does it make any difference if it's above or below Sonarworks? I'm thinking it should be above.


----------



## Torq

It should not, in theory, make any difference.
  
 Both plug-ins/processes are going to make adjustments to the frequency response curve - they'll simpy be additive/subtractive where they coincide, and won't interact where they don't; the net effect should be the same amount of boost or cut for any given frequency.
  
 Now, "should not" and "does not" _make a difference_ are two different things.  It'd be easy enough to capture the raw audio data at the end of the chain and verify the same sequence of values for both orderings of the plug-in though.
  
 For what it's worth, I have Sonarworks at the end of my chain purely because I don't use it for every pair of headphones I have - and I'd rather not route the audio data through that just to have it do nothing with it (i.e. it's turned off in the plug-in itself).


----------



## Solrighal

I expect you're right. I can't hear a difference either way. What I was thinking though was that Sonarworks treats the whole audio spectrum so it made sense to do that first & then add the PEQ bass boost afterwards.


----------



## johnjen

solrighal said:


> I have a question. I'm using JRMC and as well as the Sonarworks VST I'm using the buit-in parametric EQ. Where should I place the EQ in the stack? Does it make any difference if it's above or below Sonarworks? I'm thinking it should be above.


I was lamenting the fact that it would be nice to have sequential control of the processes inside the dsp 'stack'.
And indeed there is, as you mentioned Jriver allows the stack sequence to be changed with but a few exceptions.
(D'OH) on my part. :atsmile:

And so this is my thinking on the stack 'order'…

I leave the _Analyzer_ last (of all of the plugin-in's that are *√'d* ie enabled)
This way I can view in the FFT display, what all of the preceding changes are doing.
Being able to monitor the extreme bottom end can be fascinating at times.

Next up from the bottom is the polarity reversal.
I use a built in Jriver DSP _Parametric EQ_ (one of 2 available) plug-in to flip the phase on the Right channel.
I place this close to last so that all the initial signal processing sees 'normal' phase relationships and this tweak can't mess with them in any way.
It's probably unnecessary but then again it can't hurt either.

Then comes _Sonarworks_, I place this as the last EQ change because of the 'VU Meters' which will tell me if the modified signal has been pushed into saturation (!00% - clipping) or not, to the *input* into _Sonarworks_.
It will also tell me if the EQ changes that it makes, reach saturation on the *output*.
If you use a different method of monitoring the signal level it should reside in this location, ie. after all of the EQ processing has been done.

Next up are any additional EQ plug-ins of which I am now using 3 separate processes.
These are somewhat arbitrary as to order and depending upon if they have any other features built in (FFT displays, etc.) which might change their position within the stack.
Although sometimes a certain order of these can trigger a sonic reaction akin to the entire sound signature going sideways.

Next up the list is being able to reduce the signal level BEFORE any of the EQ adjustments are made.
I use a built in Jriver DSP _Parametric EQ _(one of 2 available) plug-in to reduce the level by 2- 6dB just so none of the next processes in the stack will overload.

Then comes the rest of the 'other' modifications being enabled.
The top 3 plug-ins are fixed into those positions (and can't be moved), namely
_Output Format
Volume Leveling
Adaptive Volume_
I only use _Output Format_ and _Volume Leveling._

And now, heading down towards the middle of the stack, I also use the _Tempo & Pitch_ plug-in as well.
Which then feeds into the additional EQ plug-ins as mentioned above, as the digital stream moves on down the stack.
I move all the other plug-ins that are not enabled (*√'d*) after (below) the last plug-in I use, which is _Analyzer_.
This step also probably shouldn't really matter in terms of SQ, but it also 'tidies up' the stack this way. 


JJ


----------



## Solrighal

Thanks for sharing your methods. I've had a similar thought process but I always thought the "stack" worked the other way around. The topmost process being the last applied by JRMC. I may very well be wrong though. As for your second PEQ, well I have the internal volume set to -6dB which does pretty much the same thing. 

I'll look more into this tomorrow morning and get back to you.


----------



## johnjen

If you try and move any of the top 3 plug-ins, the program will pop up an info box to 'splain things. :atsmile:

As for the internal volume as a substitute for the dsp volume, the only question I have is where is the internal volume applied.
Does it occur at the last part (during the output) of the player, or is it before all other processes (DSP etc.), or somewhere in between…?

The key as I see it is to NOT let any portion of the music's digital stream in the DSP stack (or in any other part of the digital path) reach saturation (100% signal level) under any conditions.
Peak or otherwise.

When this happens, it sounds UGLY…!


JJ


----------



## Solrighal

johnjen said:


> *If you try and move any of the top 3 plug-ins, the program will pop up an info box to 'splain things*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know and that's why I'm unsure of the preferred order. I mean, wouldn't it be logical to apply volume levelling _after_ DSP?
  
 I used to use Internal volume and had it set to 96%. This equates to a -2dB cut at maximum to give me a bit of headroom with _hot _recordings. However, after having re-read the JRiver Wiki I've decided to set the maximum volume to 88% (a -6dB cut) and disable the volume control altogether. I can't see any reason why this would degrade sound quality but I stand to be corrected. Also, with the volume slider enabled I always seemed to manage to accidentally reduce the volume with my Trackpad. Clumsy.
  
 I'm now going to try using Volume Levelling. It would seem - from the JRiver Wiki - that the algorithm used has no impact on sound quality so it's worth giving a go. There's nothing worse than having to wait & confirm that the next album isn't going to deafen me. This might be best filed under _First World Problems_.


----------



## johnjen

solrighal said:


> I know and that's why I'm unsure of the preferred order. I mean, wouldn't it be logical to apply volume levelling _after_ DSP?
> 
> I used to use Internal volume and had it set to 96%. This equates to a -2dB cut at maximum to give me a bit of headroom with _hot_ recordings. However, after having re-read the JRiver Wiki I've decided to set the maximum volume to 88% (a -6dB cut) and disable the volume control altogether. I can't see any reason why this would degrade sound quality but I stand to be corrected. Also, with the volume slider enabled I always seemed to manage to accidentally reduce the volume with my Trackpad. Clumsy.
> 
> I'm now going to try using Volume Levelling. It would seem - from the JRiver Wiki - that the algorithm used has no impact on sound quality so it's worth giving a go. There's nothing worse than having to wait & confirm that the next album isn't going to deafen me. This might be best filed under _First World Problems_.


My thinking about the volume leveling is that since EQ is a variable that can add or subtract quite a bit of change to the overall SPL, and the audio analysis, which is used by volume leveling, is based upon the track itself (pre-EQ) that it is 'better' to do it this way.

I use volume leveling and so far it does help 'level the playing field' and well enough so that I've never questioned it's usefulness.

JJ


----------



## bimmer100

Have I been drinking the Kool-Aid? Apparently I've been told this from a company recently when I explained my findings when changing oscillators and trying multiple DDC's recently. 
 
the following DDC's
 
DXIO Pro3A w/ NDK's
Audio-GD DIU8 w/ stock generic crystals / w/ Crystek 957's / w/ NDK's
Breeze DUU8 w/stock gold JYEC's / Soon to try Crystek 957's and NDK's
Gustard U12 stock / DC converted w/ Belleson Superpower Mk2 SPJ17 5V,  DEXA NewClassD 5v and also the AckoDac AKR75 5v 
 
 
well, my findings is that an oscillator makes quite a bit of a difference in sound stage and noise floor. I've installed both Crystek 957's and NDK's on dip14 pcb adapter boards and installed dip14 sockets into each DDC to swap them and make comparisons. I've found the NDK oscillator to be the best one tested to date. 
 
t
 
he ndk's are so darn tiny and incredibly difficult to solder. but I did a decent job with hot air and low temp solder past. these little guys burn up in seconds if you do it any other way.
 

 
the 957's are pretty easy to do. they are large and also done with solder paste and hot air. much easier than using a soldergun.
 
the installation of the DIU8 was quite tricky. I had to create dip14 sockets with extended pins and bend them in such a way to touch the smaller contacts of the stock crystal's traces on the pcb.
as you can see, those crystals are a diff package size than both the 957 and NDK NZ2520SD's
I used one of these for each crystal. clipped all the pins except for the four corners. and then proceeded to bend them to shape inwards towards the center and down straight again. this allowed for the mounting of the other crystals. Using hot air made it possible to solder them into position. Otherwise using a soldergun would be basically impossible.
 

Here are some early shots of the Gustard U12 with the a/c transfomer removed and converted to DC. also has the Dexa regulator in it. later I found the Belleson to be a much better option, and soon will try the Ackodac with the lowest noise and excellent bandwidth. 
this U12 is now for sale as i'm using my DIU8. unfortunately it's not perfect, the Coax doesn't work anymore due to "error". i'm not perfect, this was one of my first projects. but it's a little better than a stock U12. Not dramatic though.
 
 
 
 
the difference between 957's and NDK's?

 
here is a photo to show the difference in sizes.

 
 
maybe this post doesn't belong on this thread...maybe so... but I'd like to share that i've found worthwhile improvements by using an external DDC with higher performance specs and better oscillators. Also, notice those tiny little murata 1% tolerance bypass caps I soldered to the bottom of each adapter board, tweezers and surgeon hands... Or so it felt like


----------



## johnjen

As I see it this is exactly what this thread is all about.

Folks fussing with their setup and reporting their findings.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So currently I'm in the middle of 3 changes/experiments all at the same time.
One of which is a repeat of changes I've made before so I have a 'track record' of how this mod 'behaves'.
This tweak is I re-cooked my ac power cable for a REALLY long time (7 days) and it now has over 160hrs of settling time after being cooked.
Usually the time to fully settle is ≈ 250-350 hrs.

The second experiment is, I've been fussing with the vibration management control I'm applying to my HD800's and I just hit what I call gen-2 results.
Meaning the recent changes to the SQ I have been tracking are of a generational improvement 'Better'.
And I'm about ready to take this experiment another mother may I step up.
Kinda like if a little is good, more just HAS to be better right? :atsmile: 

The third change is due, innocently enough, with a call from Big Poppa, saying… 
"Hey John, I think your going to want to try this…"

He brought over an Akiko cannister.
Yeah they are usually called Akiko Sticks but this is a 'triple stick' and is bigger than a mere stick, thus it’s a canister. :atsmile:

It is a piezo/quartz ground voltage absorber, as best I can tell.

It only uses one wire in, or in the other variants there are 2 or 3 sticks each with it's own wire, thus 2 or 3 wires all of which connect up in parallel to just the ground connection of either an AC power plug, or an RCA connection, to chassis ground, or other system ground connection.

So I modified Big Poppa's Akiko stick to connect up to the ground connection at his TRS connector that feeds his headphones.
And I just plugged this triple stick canister into my dedicated ac power feed.

For those who may not be aware of the piezo-electric effect, let me add a bit of background.
Some of you may have heard of a piezo tweeter.
This essentially is a piece of 'quartz' that has wires stuck to it.
When the voltage is applied the 'quartz' moves, or vibrates if it’s a changing signal, like the waveform of music.

This effect is bidirectional, meaning the piece of 'quartz' will also generate a voltage if pressure is directly applied (think sensor).
This is commonly called a 'change of state', where in this case voltage is 'converted' into movement and heat.
The drivers in our headphones accomplish this but use a non direct path (voice coil in a magnetic field)

But for our purposes if a piece of 'quartz' is electrically connected to the earth ground connection of any piece of audio gear, or the entire system itself, it will tend to react to the presence of any voltage and 'absorb' that voltage and move, or generate heat, or both.
And remember there isn't supposed to be ANY voltage on the ground connection, except there usually is.
I mean the power supply's we use generate noise, as does the mere functioning of a dac or any other audio device in it's proximity (like the entire electrical service being fed by the panel).
And some of this energy finds its way into the grounding system of our audio system.
IOW these devices seem to reduce the 'noise' on the entire ground plane that it is directly connected to.

This sounds like what is happening, but the 'acid test' will be when I unplug the cannister from my system in a few days and then pay attention to any changes.
Because the gen-2 results I obtained with my vibration management fussing, started before I added the canister, only these gen-2 refinements and changes I call 'Better', have not stopped morphing and becoming all the more compelling and refined.

It took me a little bit of time before I noticed much if any changes after the cannister got plugged in.
Big Poopa on the other hand noticed a significant change immediately.
And it should be noted he is running his system ungrounded, and he plugged in his Akiko stick (ground voltage absorber) at the output of his amp, on the same cable that feeds his headphones.

Here in a few days I'll have a good idea if this triple stick is 'worth' the money.
Of course the next question, for me anyways is, will 1 or 2 sticks be as effective as the triple in my system?
Not to mention where to put them…

The quest for tweako tunes continues.

More results should be forthcoming in a few days.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 13 Music as experience*


*Music as experience*

Let me ‘splain sumpt’n about where I’m coming from.
Music is not about stuff, nor specs, nor an exclusive exercise in intellectualism.
Music has its roots in something far more ‘basic’ and fundamental than thinking. 
It directly evokes our emotions, as in, it can (when it ‘clicks’ for us) evoke an emotional response, sometimes even rather suddenly. 
Think of a blink response which is akin to an autonomic emotional response in that when our body ’couples’ with the music, and in a variety of ways, the results are quite amazing and ofttimes quite gratifying.
And it would seem there are quite a wide variety of responses which can get ‘triggered’.
Indeed I see this as the very basis of why music is so ‘vital’ for us all. 

Regardless of ones understanding, or the degree of appreciation of any and all related aspects, or the venue in which it is experienced, music has a powerful connection to us all. It doesn’t matter the age, socio economic background, whether one has a ‘trained’ ear, or not.

Music is meant to be felt, to be a means of sharing feelings, emotions, and ‘content’ using as fundamental a means as possible.
IOW, when Acoustic Energy directly couples with our physiology, and we feel the results, directly.
This is some of what we seek when we listen to music, to experience that ‘direct inter-connection’ that music alone instills within us.

We as audiophools are especially attuned to this, indeed it becomes our passion, our compulsion, our justification for all of the time and effort and resources we pour into our ‘hobby’.

As such it is this desire to attain this ‘emotional direct inter-connection’, and then be able to access and direct it by our choice of content, which is what I see that drives us all, onwards.
It’s also why this hobby manifests the passions that are all to often displayed here and elsewhere.

This desire, this drive, this need, to be able to experience the emotions that music can evoke in us is why I place such significance with the reports of emotional reactions that the Jggy generates.

Some call all of this hype, which can certainly be described as an emotional response. This ‘pattern’ of our emotional response to even discussing the subject of music, let alone experiencing it directly, fits right into the very core of all of this emotional <=> music ‘direct inter-connection’.

That a piece of hardware with circuits and wires and programing and technical design capabilities can draw out an emotional response AT ALL is astounding in and of itself. And then when digital is able to do so, well that is unusual, to put it mildly. Not so long ago this ability was usually considered as being limited to the ‘rarefied’ domain of analog (14” Tape dups of masters etc., tweako vinyl setup etc), but certainly not digital…

We are witnessing a milestone as more and more are seeing these very same ’sign posts’ that I’ve been on the look out for.
And this ‘Better’ series is a form of manifesting (in words) what is possible to attain and to witness this as it improves, in near real time, in some cases.
But digital has for all practical purposes caught up, enough, and surpassed in some other of the differences between analog and digital.

Enough so that far more folks can approach a degree of involvement with the music such that the mere technical differences have become far less pertinent.

And the experience of listening TO music has become THE reason FOR listening, to the extent that people don’t want to stop listening, and experiencing their music that completely captures their attention and awareness,
and to the extent of staying up WAY to late.

And these folks aren’t alone, in their commitment to experiencing these levels of musical connectedness.
What about those guys who spent ≈ 15 man years creatively working on all of the aspects to make the Jggy, for essentially for free, in their spare time.

So why did they do this?
Their passion (emotions turned towards a creative goal) is very similar to the passion, though not to the same degree that we feel when the music ‘clicks’.

This is where our ability to explore our feelings more fully, where we can allow their expression and come to know ourselves that much ‘Better’.
Which is where *SEB* originated.
When the music and my awareness coupled, *I HEARD* that cello.

And so what I am seeing are really big steps being taken in our technological march forward towards fully 120dB capable playback systems. Where we strive for higher levels of precision with respect to EXACTLY recreating the original signal in both the time and voltage domains and with ‘equal’ resolution and accuracy in both.


JJ

*End Part 13 

Next up Break in*


----------



## Solrighal

I've been playing around with the parametric EQ in Jriver since buying Sonarworks. So far for me I'm kinda settled at a +9dB boost at 12Hz over a Q of 2. I think having it anywhere higher up the range just adds back the bloom Sonarworks so ably gets rid of. This is with the HD 650 and a Project Ember using a General Electric JAN 6SN7 from 1945, still the best valve I own.
  
 I can't get the hang of the built-in Analyzer though. Not enough features. I much prefer Span Plus from Voxengo. It allows the response to be frozen and even allows the saving of PNG images for reference.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah the analyzer is a bit crude but it does have one redeeming value.
You can change the limits (both lower and upper) of the spectrum that is displayed.
I've got it set to 5Hz and 30KHz.

This allows me to monitor the subsonic contribution of the music, as well as see where the brickwall filter kicks in.

Those SSBB settings are fairly close to what I've used as well.
When you get it down to this level of 'useability', the next step is to make very small changes in just one setting at a time and then listen for changes, then reverse it and go in the opposite direction by the same small amount (1Hz,1dB, etc.). 
I've found that sometimes even one hertz can really help dial in the focus and impact of the bass.

That's the thing with all of this, you can (and I encourage everyone to) play with these settings and listen to a wide variety of music to help dial them in.
Or not.

But there is a zone where it all will 'click' and the whole is greater than just the parts in play.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Short, (for me anyway :atsmile magic crystals/piezo ground signal sponge, interim report.

Big Poppa and I are fussing with the effects of these 'resonant' ground voltage absorbers.

At this point my system has reached all new levels of inner detail and cohesiveness, coherence and coupling *C3*.

I'm almost afraid to unplug this cannister, just on the chance that it might collapse this acoustic experience 'bubble'.
Right now all those re-tasked words I've been using like *IMPERATIVE* and *SuperGlue* and *I HEARD*, well they all have been bumped to a new degree of calibration.

For instance, last night I was getting sucked into ZZ Top and in a major way.
I mean a decent but not great, 'texas rock and roll band' was captivating.
Right now Pink Floyd is sublime etc. 

But now we're formulating a plan on finding out what effects specific uses of this piezo electric effects might have on different components, separately, or in combination(s).
I'll let Big Poppa report on his results.

Ground is a WHOLE nuther topic/area to explore and experiment with, and most are unaware of its significance or the effects in can and does have on our gear. 

JJ


----------



## ericr

bimmer100 said:


> ...Maybe this post doesn't belong on this thread...maybe so... but I'd like to share that i've found worthwhile improvements by using an external DDC with higher performance specs and better oscillators. Also, notice those tiny little murata 1% tolerance bypass caps I soldered to the bottom of each adapter board, tweezers and surgeon hands... Or so it felt like.




While I've still more learning to do to really understand what you (and some of the other posts) are up to, it seems to be exactly why this thread was started. And besides, it's fun to see how you've devised ways adapt the different components. Nice work!


----------



## connieflyer

This is from the review from 6moons about akito sticks................*PS:* In an email exchange with Ron Kemp of Kemp Elektroniks who is also a dealer for Akiko he mentioned that in his own setup heavily fortified with WA quantum and Creative tweaks plus an 18-meter* long grounding rod dedicated for his audio system, introducing the Akiko sticks did not alter his sound. Considering how such an installation is far from usual, it doesn't take away from the effectiveness of the sticks in more conventional surroundings. Plus Akiko Audio offer a "flexible 14-day return policy" to assure customer satisfaction as they're convinced that their sticks work fine even in scenarios with a dedicated clean ground.
  
 Reading the review, it looks like it does amazing things, that they can not explain, until the end of the article I show above.  It looks like a good ground rod works just as well.  I have a copper ground rod around somewhere will have to give it a try and see if any difference is heard.


----------



## johnjen

A really good ground, one that reduces the voltage potentials to near zero, on the entire ground plane for the audio system, including induced voltages from computers, wifi, modems and the like, is always going to sound better.
And I can see where using the Akiko sticks with that setup you mentioned, wouldn't make much if any difference, mostly because there isn't going to be much if any voltage for the sticks to 'bite into' so to speak.

A counter example of this is Big Poppa's setup where he is running un grounded (floating) and where the Akiko stick was 'seeing' voltage 'noise' on the ground plane, and so had something to 'bite into'.
And where he noticed an immediate change (for the better) due to the reduction in the ground plane voltages.

Just having a computer or other digital device running in the vicinity is going to contribute to the amount of voltage on the ground, and most of it will be hi freq in nature.
And as most know, square waves (the signal digital electronics use) is extremely 'rich' in upper harmonics, which will find its way into the ground plane, one way or another.

This harmonically rich source of noise is not what we want our electronics to have to deal with, at all.

And I too have plans to add a second ground rod, just for the audio system (assuming it is less noisy) to help reduce this one factor which is all to easily overlooked.

So in one sense the Akiko sticks could be a 'substitute' for a second ground, or as a way of helping to clean up the ground voltages where there is no option to do so other wise.

JJ


----------



## landroni

I found this review of Akiko sticks useful:
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue71/akiko_audio.htm
  
 BTW, does Akiko sticks have anything in common with Audioquest's Jitterbug? I recall Jitterbug salesmen were getting a lot of slack for recommending plugging this power filter in multiple USB slots, in your modem, router, etc., etc., but I see that Akiko sticks seem to be coming with similar instructions.


----------



## johnjen

System Settling and Akiko Stick (canister) stage 1 report.

So last night I pulled the canister out of the system.
And
The changes were slight.
So I plugged it back in while listening the whole time.
Again the changes were slight.

Then I did it a few more times with a longer time spent in both states.

IOW the differences are in the *ToP* (Threshold of Perceptibility) which is to say ≈10-15%.

Yes things were a slight bit better with the canister (even in proximity of the ac power cables) but it was very slight, to the point that I suspect if you don't have a 'tweaked' system AND have a really good ground already, there is a good chance no difference might ever be noticed.

But if you are running on an ungrounded system or one with a 'dirty' ground, the changes would (or could) be much more noticeable.

But the thing is it's the nature of the changes that is intriguing and for some, these specific traits are highly sought after.

So what do I mean…

During this triple tweaker period (I'm in the 300hr range of settling in for the ac power cable) and I figure that the Vibration Management mod has settled in, and the Akiko canister doing its thing,
I have been hearing tube like euphonics out of the system.
Not heavy, not full blown syrupy, drippingly luscious, overblown, better than life, sorta midrange harmonics. 
No it's more of a extra degree of polish on sibilants, more inner detail in cymbals and plosives (P's, T's and S'sss) where ultra fine inner detail can all to easily be obscured.

One way to perceive it would be to say the noise floor has become much calmer, or less intrusive, even though the noise floor itself is below or outside of audibility.
It can also be liked to a slew rate increase, or where not only is the focus tighter, but there is more there, there to tighten upon.

Getting any increase in these traits from a SS power amp and dac, well, it's All Gud…:atsmile:

But these traits are emerging despite the Akiko Canister. 
What it does seem to be doing is 'helping' these traits emerge, not enabling them in the first place.

And the ac power cable has yet to reach it's peak of performance as well.
Last night for instance I noted a lack of inner detail and bass, increased *tLFF*, a mini toilet dump of sorts.
Today is a bit better, but tomorrow after I hit 325+hrs I'm hoping the SQ begins another climb in SQ.

So what's going on with these piezo sticks?
Here's my supposition at this point.

My dedicated power branch circuit, it would seem is fairly 'quiet' so there doesn't seem like much for the canister to 'bite into'.
Stage 2 of my experiment is to use 1 or 2 of the 2 wire piezo sticks and connect them to the chassis/main electrical ground for the dac and amp.
Singularly and as a pair.
And with and without the Triple canister.

I suspect that a more direct connection at the actual circuit ground for these 2 noise sources, just might be more 'effective', thus yield a greater change between being plugged in, or not.

I also want to try the usb stick while stuck in an unused usb port on my Mac.

I figure getting a noise sponge closer to the source of the noise will yield '*Better*' results than being further away.
But then again perhaps not.

That's the point of these experiments, to help figure out what results can be obtained in a variety of situations and conditions, and to see if these magic piezo crystal resonators really do help and by how much.

Thus far its only been a subtle change, but a change for the better none the less.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> I found this review of Akiko sticks useful:
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue71/akiko_audio.htm
> 
> BTW, does Akiko sticks have anything in common with Audioquest's Jitterbug? I recall Jitterbug salesmen were getting a lot of slack for recommending plugging this power filter in multiple USB slots, in your modem, router, etc., etc., but I see that Akiko sticks seem to be coming with similar instructions.


Not as far as I can tell.

These are pieces of piezo-electric material, there is no 'active' circuitry and they only connect to the ground of the circuit they are plugged into, using just one 'input' wire per section.
Which means they aren't a 'normal' load (hot/neutral, input/output) 2 wire system.

All of the Jitterbugs, Wyrds, usb isolation/reclockers/DDC data manipulation devices, etc. are active devices.
Which means at least 2 wires (usually more) are being used.


In fact they even have a stick with no wires, it is just placed (velcro'd) to a cable and operates thru proximity and resonance.
I don't know how effective it is but some report better results from it than using a wired stick.
And I did notice, again slightly, but a change none the less when I moved the canister into closer proximity to both of the ac power cables or moved it away.

It was sort of curious as the 'effects' seemed to wear off gradually and take a little while to come back into full focus.

IOW it wasn't like a light switch, as in on/off.
More like a resonant circuit loosing its coupling to the external source of energy, and then re-synchronizing to it again.

Go figure…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 14 Break In and Thermal Equilibrium*


*Break In*
Some people swear they hear changes to equipment as it ‘power ages’, while others probably swear under their breath…

The Schiit Jggy is the most demonstrable and perhaps the most extreme example of ‘Break In’ I have heard of.
Some folks hear such a dramatic and drastic change when it ‘comes into full focus’ that many are simply unprepared for this degree of improvement, even though they have read the reports and are aware of this ‘phenomenon’.
Others know of this due to previous experience with other gear changing due to Break In.

This trait of changing the sonic signature of any piece of gear as it accumulates operating hours is sometimes denied by some, appreciated and welcomed by others, and until it IS experienced many just sort of wonder what all the fuss is about.

But there do seem to be changes in the musical presentation by our playback system(s) as they Break In. 
Can they cop an attitude?
Get all dark and moody all by themselves?  
Sort of throw a hissy fit, just because?

For myself, it wasn’t just psycho-acoustical influences that lead to my ‘toilet-dump’ experience that lasted for 60hrs of playing time. 
That was the equipment itself going ‘out of focus’ and rather quickly (over a 12-20 hr period), and sounding almost as bad as an am radio. 
The SQ returned, slowly, and did so to an even tighter focus than before the ‘big swirl’ experience.

And it wasn’t just a FR or a single simple sonic aspect that was degraded. 
Rather it was the more subtle inner details that evaporated into thin air, along with a lack of bass and bass impact, and the sound being ‘pinched’ into a 2d presentation, all of which sounded like crap. 
It was like listening thru a small piece of paper, instead of hearing the ‘real’ world that surrounds us in all 3 dimensions.

This happened during an experiment where a cable was Breaking In, and the SQ swirled down and out.
It was quite dramatic and had me wonder What was going on.

*Thermal Equilibrium*
And I have come to understand that there is more to this Break In than simply merely reaching Thermal Equilbrium alone.
Because the Jgggy or any piece of gear will certainly thermally stabilize in 24hrs or less after powering up.
My 800’s took ≈ 100+ hrs of operating before they fully ‘opened up’.
During our last mini meet the brand new 800S opened up to a noticeable amount just in the few hours we were playing with it.
And I’m sure many of you can recite examples of your own with gear you have tried in your own systems.

So I was thinking about thermal ‘migration’ patterns and the flow of heat as it shifts ‘directions’ during warm up and how that would affect caps in particular, but also how it effects all of the circuitry in our gear.

As can be shown there can be ‘large’ changes to the amount of capacitance as a capacitor warms up. But while in the circuit and until a degree of equilibrium has been reached portions of the cap will be at variance with other portions. And as these areas are either being directly heated or are being warmed up by an adjoining area, these thermal effects will cause shifts in the amount of capacitance that will tend to dynamically change.
Which means the ‘steady state’ capacitance that the cap presents to the circuit, won’t happen until thermal equilibrium has been reached.

Convection, radiation, conduction, these 3 types of thermal propagation methods each have unique properties of heat flow and transfer heat differently due to the proximity and the position of the heat source with respect to the location and proximity of the cap itself. 
IOW different portions of the cap will heat up at different rates while then conducting that heat to the lower temp areas of the cap, until the cap has reached a degree of internal thermal homogeneity and then stabilizes. 

The lead in wires, the outer case of any cap, each will conduct heat at different rates while acting at first as a ‘collector’ of heat to be absorbed into the internal structure of the cap. Not to mention the heat of the air that surrounds the cap, which in itself can contribute more heat as the cap continues to warm up. This changes the internal thermal flow pattern of the cap as its local environment shifts. And then when the cap begins to radiate heat away from itself into it’s local environment, which is a reversal of absorbing thermal energy during its earlier warm up stages, is yet another thermal flow pattern change.

And different types of caps will absorb thermal energy at different rates and in each of the three different ways, and so it goes.

And now apply this to resistors, transformers, inductors, active devices, even to an extent the ‘passive’ components like the circuit boards, the case, the wires, switches etc.

So to me it’s no wonder that we hear differences in the sonic signature as each unit warms up and approaches thermal stability. And why it can be ‘obvious’ when we do reach the optimal thermal equilibrium, since the entire circuit greatly reduces it’s thermal fluctuations in operation, just due to heat migration pattern changes during warmup.

And just recently a whole new aspect of Break In / Thermal Equilibrium / reaching the optimal SQ that our system is capable of has surfaced.

Namely our headphones.

In short I have noticed, as have others, that it takes about 1/2 hr of continual listening to your headphones before they come into tighter focus and the entire acoustic presentation takes a mother may I step up.
I have also noticed another increase in SQ step up also manifesting in the 1-1.5 hr time window as well.

Now the first 1/2 hr SQ jump up could very well be a result of a psycho acoustic or acclimation response, or at least it could be a contributing factor of this overall change.
And it could even apply to the second SQ step up during the 1-1.5hr window.

BUT!
I suspect that along with reaching Thermal Equilibrium, Humidity is also at play and combined these make for a ‘better’ match in explaining why these 1/2 and 1-1.5hr times are so consistent.

My supposition runs like this…
Until the headphones have been run for a while, the (small amount of) heat generated by the voice coil, which also warms up the rest of the driver assembly along with the rest of the mass of the support structure, has not reached Thermal Equilibrium.
BUT lets not forget the increase in the Humidity inside the ear cup as well.
Most are probably not aware of this factor, since I’ve not seen it mentioned much, if at all.
In effect as the density of the captured air inside the ear cups increases due to the increase in humidity, the coupling between the driver and our tympanic membrane also increases.

What does this mean?
Well, as the density of the air increases, the ability of the driver to efficiently and accurately transfer the acoustic waveform it generates also ‘tightens up’.
Think of this trapper air as a piston and as the piston becomes more ‘solid’ (more dense, less compressible) the actual transfer of acoustic pressure is ‘controlled’ and delivered more effectively.
In effect the driver and our tympanic membrane are more closely and tightly coupled.
This results in ‘Better’ SQ.

This is what I think is happening at these repeatable time windows, as the acoustic waveform is ‘aided’ by our head as it helps warm up the entire ear cup structure AND as moisture from our head is infused into the trapped air pocket.

This increase in moisture can be a ‘problem’ especially in closed back headphones.
Anyone else remember the Koss PRO-4AA’s and how the moisture would build up inside and you’d have to wipe away the excess drops of water?
I do…


JJ

*End Part 14 

Next up THE Subjectivist vs the Objectivist ‘duality’*


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> Not as far as I can tell.
> 
> These are pieces of piezo-electric material, there is no 'active' circuitry and they only connect to the ground of the circuit they are plugged into, using just one 'input' wire per section.
> Which means they aren't a 'normal' load (hot/neutral, input/output) 2 wire system.
> ...


 
  
 A few months ago I would have completely scoffed at devices like this (I'd even have put the word "device" inverted commas); I was almost as skeptical about power cables making an audible difference.  But, since hearing a difference after switching my stock el-cheapo IEC cables for the Maze Audio ones - when I wasn't actually paying attention or looking for a difference, I've tried to be a bit more open minded about such things.
  
 At our little TOTL heaphone thing last week I got to see, or rather hear, the changes brought on by a simple headphone cable change.  I'd been more open to that sort of thing previously, but was surprised at the _degree _of change - so that was kind of new for me as well.
  
 So, with a newly "opened" mind (my brain hasn't fallen out yet ... week isn't over yet though ...) or relaxed attitude to this sort of thing, and as we have a local dealer in Bellevue, WA for the Akiko products, and as they're easy to use and comparatively inexpensive, I picked up one of their new MK2 AC Tuning sticks.  Fascinated to see if I can tell a difference - though I'm not going to fiddle with it until after I'm done with my listening on the Stockholm v2 tour.
  
 The new MK2 unit has two wires coming from it.  I'll have to open the plug up to see what they're connected too ... though from what I've read I'd assume they both go to ground.
  
 Fascinating stuff.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah it is a bit of a head scratcher to be sure.

And yeah both (or all 3) wires only attach to the ground.

Right now I'm playing with a one wire (usb stick), a 2 wire stick (rca to ground) and a 3 wire cannister (ac power plug).

The results are subtle but at least in my system, noticeable.
And as I posted, the changes are what most would call desirable as SQ improvements.

I'm in the middle of trying to figure out which of these 3 are the 'most' beneficial, but it might just be that they are cumulative in their effects.
Which tends to sell lots of these devices for those with the coin, but I'm working on a theory and want to find out if it has much if any merit.

But one thing does seem clear enough, at least thus far, and that is if the ground connection is relatively 'noise free' then these piezo sticks have less effect, where as in an ungrounded or 'noisy' electrical environment they seem much more readily beneficial.
Which in and of itself lends credence to the whole notion of employing a piezo electric effect to 'clean up' the electrical noise on the ground plane.

JJ


----------



## bimmer100

I am curious to try the akiko sticks on my balanced ac regen setup. I don't really expect to hear any difference as the noise floor likely won't get any lower  but I still love to try new tweaks and will report what I find out. I'm inquiring about the ac stick, maybe the triple one or whatever. 

I've got a similar product from msa called magic tubes. I believe it's the same stuff. And black discus.  I didn't hear any improvements, but they are not as large as the akiko.


----------



## johnjen

As I mentioned previously, the Akiko sticks take a while to fully engage and to fully disengage.

Which means it takes a while for the SQ to fully change.
This makes it more difficult to notice changes as using ones short term memory is defeated due to the time delay(s).

So ones point of focus needs to shift to using other methods of discerning changes, be they desirable or not.

JJ


----------



## hekeli

So Forza made me 4-pin XLR polarity inverter for right channel. Using Foobar2000 & Simple Polarity Inverter, stuff in my sig. Quick testing my fav bass tracks, definitely no night and day difference here. But there seems to be a subtle enhancement (or bias, hello), more listening due tonite for sure.
  
 If I manage to purchase Quantasylum QA401 soon, will be interesting to see if there's any actual measurable difference.


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> As I mentioned previously, the Akiko sticks take a while to fully engage and to fully disengage.
> 
> Which means it takes a while for the SQ to fully change.
> This makes it more difficult to notice changes as using ones short term memory is defeated due to the time delay(s).
> ...


 

 My first couple of listens with the Akiko AC stick in place haven't  yielded any difference I can discern.  Leaving it in place for two days didn't change that.  Nor did removing it.  That's on my Mojo/WA6 setup.  I'm not taking that to mean very much though, since that system is currently hooked up via a surge-suppressor and some very nasty stock power cables.
  
 I'm waiting for a plain-jane (no lights, protection, filtering or anything else) power distribution block so I can run the stick on my main system with no other filtering effects present and see what happens there.  Should have that in Monday or Tuesday, and I'll try it again on my main system.


----------



## johnjen

That's good to hear!

One of the things I've noticed about these Akiko sticks is if the system isn't tweaked or if the system already has a solid and quiet ground they may not contribute much if any changes/improvements.

However they also seem to have a cumulative effect, in that when well placed, and used in multiple places, the changes become not just more noticeable but 'Better' as well.

I'm in the final stages of a write up on my latest experiments using several of them in various combinations and placements.
What I noticed was an improvement in that the micro-phonics not only increased but came into much better focus as well.
These improvements sound like tube euphonics in that the micro-phonics are harmonically linked to their source 'voice' which makes them all the more 'real'.

And just because, I had a mini toilet dump, as my amps power cable is still settling in and passed thru the dreaded 400+ hr time window where the SQ goes sideways and then recovers (think moiré pattern ala, phase ∆ reduction experiment).
So I'm almost set for round 2 of experiments.

I figure I'll post my wirteup here later today.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

hekeli said:


> So Forza made me 4-pin XLR polarity inverter for right channel. Using Foobar2000 & Simple Polarity Inverter, stuff in my sig. Quick testing my fav bass tracks, definitely no night and day difference here. But there seems to be a subtle enhancement (or bias, hello), more listening due tonite for sure.
> 
> If I manage to purchase Quantasylum QA401 soon, will be interesting to see if there's any actual measurable difference.


Excellent!

I look forward to seeing what you come up with. :thumb

JJ


----------



## bimmer100

johnjen said:


> System Settling and Akiko Stick (canister) stage 1 report.
> 
> So last night I pulled the canister out of the system.
> And
> ...




I am picking up a triple ac akiko stick on Monday directly from the owner in Bellevue and also should be getting another interesting device from less loss called the firewall with an oyaide connectors. Also preordered a firewall USB key as well.
Will be fun to try.
I plan to pull the emi/rf filter from my p300 and use an akiko stick and less loss firewall in its place. Hopefully this will fully open up the dynamics with no bottleneck. 
It actually sounds spectacular already... But I have the contagious tweaking bug that everyone else seems to have In this thread.

I'm also sending my m11 back to kingwa to have all the internal wiring replaced with norne silvergarde S with shielding, as well as all xlr and RCA connectors on front and rear panel with eizz tellerium copper and gold or rhodium plating. Tweaking a little at a time.
Next step I'll be looking into upgrading components in the m11 with ultra low noise belleson regulators.

I should have some ifi DC ipurifier and ifi USB Ipurifier2 to play with too. But I'm still sold on the intona as being one of the best upgrades for USB I've ever tried. I believe HI-phi got his a week ago and has been blown away from what it has done with his setup.


----------



## BIG POPPA

In my rig, the Akiko sticks make a huge difference. Wired with 2 plug outlets in my place. Old house. Do have a Granite Audio Ground Zero coming tomorrow. So have been fiercely on a rampage tweaking my rig for the better. To me it has never been about the spec's of the gear, more so the synergy. Enjoy the strengths of your rig and fix the weaknesses. it will always be an ongoing process.


----------



## johnjen

*Results from round 1 tests of using Akiko sticks *

As I posted previously the results from just using the triple canister while plugged into my duplex receptacles was for the most part, subtle, but desirable none the less.

Then Big Poppa loaned my his 2 sticks, a USB terminated stick and a double wired signal stick which we re-terminated with a spade lug so it could be used on the TRS plug for his headphones.
He also lent me one of his Wyrds along with 3 of his usb cables for me to cook.
So it’s ALL his fault!

Thanks man, this is the kind of experiment where the rubber meets the road… :atsmile:

So to start I plugged the USB stick into the back of my Mac in an adjacent usb port.
I noticed a slight improvement, much along the lines of just using the triple canister.

Then I decided to go all out.
By then I had finished cooking his USB cables so I used 2 of his now cooked cables and inserted the 2nd Wyrd into my data path and along with adding his double wire piezo stick to my Dac.

This was a more significant improvement.
What I noticed was better transient response especially in the highs.
‘Voices’ such as hi-hats, cymbals, plucks on stringed instruments, and distinguishing each singer in duets were all improved.
Using my re-tasked terminology *C3*, *Holo*, *Intelligibilty*, all were improved and not just in the subtle way as before.

Then I got a wild hair and figured I’d test my speculation to see if moving these piezo sticks closer to the noise sources would make much if any difference…

Um, er, well, it’s like this, see…

First I just moved the triple canister to The Rok, from being plugged into the duplex receptacles used to power The Rok and Dac, and left the double stick on the Dac.
Nice jump up in SQ, as in it’s not so subtle any more.
All of the improvements noted above took a mother may I step up, again.

But wait there’s moar…
Next I swapped the triple and the double’s position, so now the triple is connected to the Dac’s ground and the double is wired to The Rok.
I figured the Dac is WAY noisier than The Rok…

Yeah baby THAT’s what I’m talk’n about!

No longer are the SQ changes subtle, and now the soundstage has joined the list of ‘Better’ along with a significant improvement in inner detail along with a significant boost in tube like euphonic harmonic enhancements.
IOW not only is there moar there, there, but it is more focused and tightly coupled with and to each parents ‘voice’.
And the acoustic space is also ‘Better’ in that it too is moar tightly coupled to each of the ‘*voices*’, individually and en masse. 

This is especially noticeable, as before, in the top end where nuances of cymbals and stringed instruments have an increased degree of intonation or timbre.
It’s like being able to hear the finger nails as they pluck the strings or hearing where and how the drum stick hits the hi-hat or other percussive ‘voices’, like wood blocks, or chimes, or strings of bells etc.

Listening has become even more compelling, the *SuperGlue* stronger, the *I HEARD* more inclusive and expansive at the same time.

I think I’m gunna be REALLY bleary eyed tomorrow…

So what I’m hearing is, not just that a veil has been dropped, but it’s where each ‘voice’ is, as Big Poppa put it, ‘clearer’.
I’m hearing more of the full harmonic structure of each ‘voice’, to the extent that each ‘voice’ has a greater degree of ‘realness’.

Which also increases the perception of the interplay of each ‘voice’ as each ‘plays off’ each other.
As one ‘voice’ makes a musical ‘statement’ and another ‘answers’ back and adds it’s own statement on top, only to be answered again, and so on.
These relationships become more ‘obvious’, as in the continuity of the music becomes easier to follow as each of the’ voice’s’ contribution blends ‘*Better*’ with the others.
IOW the music itself is ‘easier’ to follow along with (*T3* and *HB&W*), and get sucked into, as each ‘voice’ contributes its part in the piece and they each give and take to make up the whole of the musical piece, the seamlessness of the whole is ‘*Better*’ and more tightly focused.

It seems that the noise floor has dropped with a resultant increase in micro detail and ability to focus down fully into this newly presented micro detail. 
And this micro detail is being added to the entire audible spectrum.

This change in the location of the sticks tends to support my supposition that the closer the piezo electric noise sponges are to the source(s) of noise, the better.
IOW reducing the dissipation of noise and the lowering of the grounds noise floor in the actual gear that generates it, seems to make significant improvements.

And it seems that using several of these sticks results in a cumulative gain.
This then raises the question of how much is enough, and at this point I have no definitive answer, and each person’s system, being different, also throws a major variable into this answer.
But it seems as though using multiple piezo sticks as close as possible to the actual sources of noise has significant benefits.

And let me add that some might think that detail at this level makes the acoustical presentation too analytical.
And for some it might but, what I am noticing is a level of realness which even further reduces my sense of disbelief that what is being experienced is real.
IOW my sense of ‘knowing’ that what I’m hearing is artificial, is reduced, to new levels, yet again.


And then I had to give it all back…
Oh, the horror…

Now I’m ‘just’ listening to my ‘naked’ system devoid the micro detail I now know it is capable of.
Oh, the horror… :atsmile:

This is one of those times where auditioning new stuff, stuff where there is no budget, can be an instigator of withdrawal like symptoms… 

JJ
ps. Also near the end of my time with the sticks, my system entered into a mini toilet dump period. This threw a bit of a question in my mind as to what was going on, until I looked at the accumulated hours since I finished cooking my power cable. And at this time the SQ is returning to the levels before the mini swirl.
And as I finish this write up the SQ is continuing to morph and is approaching the levels of SQ I was experiencing during the peak of the experiment.


----------



## Torq

I finally got to do a quick-and-dirty test with the single Akiko AC Tuning Stick I have.  Just plugging it in/removing it as I worked through a not-really-very-varied playlist showed no immediately discernible differences.  Not that surprised - both based on @johnjen's experience and the fact I think my power is already pretty clean.
  
 So now it'll get to sit in the system for a few days, I'll listen as normal and we'll see what happens.  And after that I'll pull the thing out and see if I notice any change with it removed (immediately or over the course of a day or two).


----------



## bimmer100

torq said:


> I finally got to do a quick-and-dirty test with the single Akiko AC Tuning Stick I have.  Just plugging it in/removing it as I worked through a not-really-very-varied playlist showed no immediately discernible differences.  Not that surprised - both based on @johnjen's experience and the fact I think my power is already pretty clean.
> 
> So now it'll get to sit in the system for a few days, I'll listen as normal and we'll see what happens.  And after that I'll pull the thing out and see if I notice any change with it removed (immediately or over the course of a day or two).


 
  
  
 I would like to try your Akiko in my system. I backed out of buying one for now... I am 99% sure I won't hear any difference. But it doesn't hurt to try!


----------



## Torq

bimmer100 said:


> I would like to try your Akiko in my system. I backed out of buying one for now... I am 99% sure I won't hear any difference. But it doesn't hurt to try!




I'll bring it when we get together to try the Abyss with your setup then.


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> I finally got to do a quick-and-dirty test with the single Akiko AC Tuning Stick I have.  Just plugging it in/removing it as I worked through a not-really-very-varied playlist showed no immediately discernible differences.  Not that surprised - both based on @johnjen
> 's experience and the fact I think my power is already pretty clean.
> 
> So now it'll get to sit in the system for a few days, I'll listen as normal and we'll see what happens.  And after that I'll pull the thing out and see if I notice any change with it removed (immediately or over the course of a day or two).


When I used the triple canister it took a while (1-2hrs of listening) to be noticeable and what I heard was hard to attribute to just the canister.
And unplugging it took ≈15-30 minutes before the 'effect' wore off.

This makes it really difficult to tell if there are any real gains, or not.
Mostly because it takes ≈ at least 1/2hr for the SQ of the system itself to settle down and reach that 1st plateau where everything clicks into place.
And if the system is still settling in after any changes (cables, warm up, etc.) this further exacerbates being able to tell what is what.

But one thing to try is to connect it directly to your dac.
I figure you'll hear changes much more readily that way.
Of course if the triple canister is 'on a demo' then jury rigging a way to connect it to the ground of the dac will require a bit of creative fussing with the wires etc.
I used a jumbo alligator clip to grab the 'u' ground connector on the power plug and the #1 pin on a 3 pin xlr to go to ground on an unused input.
That way I didn't damage or mess with the triple canister's 'stock' setup.

JJ


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> When I used the triple canister it took a while (1-2hrs of listening) to be noticeable and what I heard was hard to attribute to just the canister.
> And unplugging it took ≈15-30 minutes before the 'effect' wore off.
> 
> This makes it really difficult to tell if there are any real gains, or not.
> ...


 

 I left my main setup playing music at a low level for the last day and a half, with the single AC tuning stick connected to my passive distribution block.
  
 In the last hour or so I've become aware of some small and subtle changes.  The most notable is in the shimmer and definition of a wire brush on cymbals ... which has gone from being "one sound" to, for want of a better description, hearing the individual strands caressing the bronze/brass.
  
 As you say, it's hard to know for sure if this is, specifically, down to the Akiko stick, but the system was fully warmed up, and the music is something I'm ridiculously familiar with, and having removed the stick the "effect" went away - though oddly not all at once.
  
 After hearing this, I took the headphones off for 15 minutes (letting them continue playing) to try and let them cool a little and let any heat/moisture related acoustic coupling of the cans and air between them and my ear drums dissipate (one of your theories about the "superglue" effect that makes sense to me).  The effect remained when I put them back on.
  
 I considered the idea, at first, that the additional couple of hours of usage on my week-old set of Abyss headphones was the cause of this effect (i.e. additional burn-in time), but if that was the case the effect shouldn't have gone away when I disconnected the stick.
  
 This is all intriguing to say the least.  It's also highly unexpected and, to my more scientific/engineering sensibilities, more than a little disconcerting (comments to the effect of "Quantum equilibrium thermo-bollocks!" come to mind).  Maybe it's all placebo.  Those brushes sure do have some detail to them now though!
  
 Another day of this and if the effect persists I shall likely try the triple AC unit and maybe one of the XLR or "universal" units.


----------



## johnjen

So if you want to 'emphasize' those micro-details, connect the triple canister directly to the dac's ground as I mentioned above.

Right now I've jury rigged an Akiko USB stick to both my amp and dac's ground, in a 'Y' configuration.
I'm glad it didn't cause a ground loop condition.

This is a single wire mini stick (like 1/3rd of a single wire stick)
This test also brings out those same micro details, though not to the same degree as the previous setup using a double and triple stick and this USB stick.
This test also brings out much more of a pronounced improvement than using the USB stick in an unused usb slot in the back of my mac.

All of this reinforces my supposition that the closer these ground noise piezo sponges are to the sources of noise, the better.
And part of this may be the fact that I have a Wyrd in between my Mac and the dac which acts as a 'buffer'.

And those brushes and other upper mids that now have a greater degree of micro detail are exactly what I'd expect to hear if the noise floor is lowered/cleaned up, by a piezo electric effect if, this is truly what is happening.

As for the 'Quantum Tunneling into a lowered energy state via a tachion pairing function'… :atsmile:
Indeed when the prose is long on nonsensical gibberish and short on a realistic explanation, I usually just pass on by…
So I try not to let the marketing dept sway me one way or the other and instead just try to discern IF there really is a change. 
Then I try to figure out what I hear from these changes and what are the parameters they operate under.
And along the way determine if the changes truly are 'Better', or not.


JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or 
It’s all in our heads, or is it?

Part 15 The Audio Subjectivist vs the Objectivist ‘duality’*


The Audio Subjectivist vs the Objectivist ‘duality’,

This missive is gunna be a little different, ok so a lot different…
I’m starting it out with an hour long Utube video about a dichotomy that has ‘resurfaced’ within the traditional physics community.
It, as the video will present, addresses an age old duality that many have thought was settled, as in dead and buried, except it isn’t dead at all.

It centers around materialism that has been the ‘preferred’ underlying assumption of the make up of our understanding (construct) of our reality,
Of The Way Of Things.

There has always been a diametrically opposite (as in mutually exclusive) model of,
The Way Of Things.

The video calls it The Simulation Hypothesis.
Or as it has been known, the Plato vs. Democritus dichotomy/duality of Idealism vs Materialism, dating back several thousand years to the ancient Greeks.
This duality can also be characterized as Materialism vs Consciousness as the root of,
The Way Of Things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqULEE7eY8M

So why start out with this?
After you watch it for at least 10 minutes (and I couldn’t stop there, either… ) you’ll get most of the point I’m making here.

Which is, many of the precepts we use, and assume(d) to be true, are not necessarily accurate.

In fact, as has been the case for many thousands of years, many other cultures ascribe to the Consciousness model in a variety of ways.

I bring this up 1st because many people still rigidly cling to a materialistic viewpoint.
And it’s not to say that this perspective is all ‘wrong’,
but it is to say that it isn’t ‘correct’ as well.
IOW if, as I understand it, Consciousness is primary, all of observable reality (the domain of science) is a consequence or subset of what consciousness deals with, affects, and creates.

Another way of perceiving this is to view this split between these 2 ‘sides’ as to what is more fundamental to our reality, both general and personal, 
our awareness of what and who we are, 
or the stuff that makes up our reality.

Because if our conscious awareness is more fundamental, then the results we get from experimenting and trying to figure out what this stuff we deal with truly is, indeed if it forms and shapes that very stuff, then I submit our conscious awareness (perceptions and feelings and understandings etc.) will help determine what our reality is FOR US, and all those who understand it in a similar way.
This in turn means others can and DO have a different understanding of their world, which of course may or may not have much if any similarity to our own.
BOTH are equally correct FOR THEM (and those who share similar beliefs and a common conscious awareness) and for us.

IOW the makeup of the reality of our own world is in part shaped and determined by our conscious awareness, along with how it interacts with all those ‘others’ we interact with as well.

So what’s ANY of this got to do with tunes, I can hear someone mumbling in the back row…
I’ll fold this into the rest of this topic in a bit.
Think experience as a major, indeed a primary input to our continually increasing awareness.

But next up is…
The dichotomy of The Audio Subjectivist vs the Objectivist ‘duality’, as I have come to understand it, is really lopsided.

Let me explain what I mean by that.

The usual perspective is that on one side there is the subjectivist POV.
This orientation doesn’t care about numbers or even a pretense of objectivity, mostly because they hear and respond to the music as it occurs without thinking or dealing with these analytical aspects. 
Why?
Because it ‘gets in the way’ of the enjoyment, of the passion, of the emotional content that is delivered in real time. 
Thinking or applying the minds analytic prowess just gets in the way of this direct involvement WITH the music.
And it’s completely unnecessary to actually listening to music.
Indeed some would call it a hinderance, to NOT be able to turn off the minds incessant mental chatter and just be in the moment while being immersed in the music.

And on the other hand the objectivist view point is all about trying to quantify the experience, the equipment, the means of delivery of the music, and most significantly how to improve any and all of the above. Because this is THE tool that we have that is most effective in making improvements of any kind to the equipment, the delivery, and yes even to our understanding of the experience itself.

But see, this is where it gets complicated and is usually what gets left out of the ‘equation’.

Objective data or results HAVE TO be ‘evaluated’, HAVE TO be put into context, HAVE TO be assigned a subjective measure, in order to be useful, IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HUH?

Is 0.001% distortion always better than 0.01%?
How about 0.0001% or 0.00001%?

Case in point, tubes even when done really well will almost always measure with higher distortion than a SS circuit.
But which would you prefer, which is ‘Better’?

Well, that depends now doesn’t it?
And really what it comes down to is, does 0.001% sound ‘better’ than 0.01%?
In some cases yes, and in other cases, no.
So this immediately reveals a subjective ‘layer’ to the objectivist reality.
Which means that the data alone, without a subjective evaluation, has no meaning, no context from and within which, for us to know what the numbers mean.
Is 0.001% ‘better’ than 0.01%?

IOW the objective perspective is but a subset of the subjective. 
Because without the added subjective meaning, such as the determination of ‘better’, the data alone, is meaningless when it comes to using it.
Put another way we can ‘operate’ completely independently of the objective perspective while being in the subjective mode.
The reverse cannot be said to be true, at all. 
We can’t exist in an objectivist reality independent and devoid of the subjective because it has no meaning. 
It’s got lots of data, lots of numbers and such but without an evaluation of what it all means, without determining the relationship between how much vs what is ‘Better’, it has no useful association to us.

Indeed, we can tell if we prefer device A over B completely independently of whatever numbers are associated with either device. 
IOW the numbers are not the final arbiter of whether 0.001% is ‘better’ than 0.01%, or not, because we determine what is an improvement, what is ‘better’ which is a completely subjective determination.

Which means that in the end the objectivist perspective is reliant and dependent upon a subject choice.

It’s the old quantity vs. quality duality but with a twist, because we need to use both to make changes (hopefully) with the intent that they actually are improvements. 
But we are the final arbiters, aren’t we?
As in, 
I like this, 
except…
but only…
only for…
only while…
this sounds like a**…
etc…

But we do use both whether it is recognized or even appreciated, or not, because they, much like any yin-yang situation where it takes both sides to be ‘effective’ and operate in a balanced way, are useful and indeed tied together.

We wouldn’t have the audio systems we enjoy today if the objectivist’s methods weren’t effective, nor would we have these very same systems if our subjective evaluatory effectiveness were not utilized to the extent it is either.
IOW after changes are implemented, then we decide if they are ‘Better’,
Or not.

So if the Objectivist needs the Subjectivist and visa versa, then what is the best way for them to ‘help’ each other?

This gets back to that video at the start of this missive.

If ones conscious awareness is adamant or rigidly defined with a particular bent, that in turn not only defines that reality but it is shaped by it as well.
IOW what you believe is what you get.
Well sort of, because beliefs can, do and MUST change.
Cosmic law or sumpt’n…
And the way it works is these discrepancies will keep popping up in order to get resolved.
More cosmic law or rules or sumpt’n…

Which also means if a strict subjectivist’s understanding says objectivists are wrong, then that colors their reality.
Conversely if an objectivist defines the subjectivist view point as an aberration or ‘trick of the mind’ etc, etc. that also colors their reality.
And I submit neither is ‘correct’, nor really helpful, nor productive.

It also needs to be noted that subjectivity, and consciousness itself requires experience.
It is THE means to gain understanding and then wisdom.

IOW, in order to KNOW something it first must be experienced.
And employing the logical fallacy of trying to prove a negative, (you can’t), is a trap in and of itself.
IOW stating that this or that is impossible, or wrong or incorrect based solely upon theory or preconceived beliefs is fraught with error.
Because all it takes is ‘enough’ evidence to the contrary to disprove any negative assertion.

We all are aware of negative assertions such as…
Man can’t fly.
The sound barrier is impenetrable.
Wires make no difference.
You can’t hear anything beyond x or y or z.
Audiophool fuses make no difference.
The list can go on and on.

Except that there are lots of people who KNOW these negative assertions are not correct, because they have experienced, for themselves the exact opposite.
And nothing can negate these experiences, because a conscious awareness of a repeatable and consistent experience IS, and does form, their reality.
Just as a lack of an experience can’t be relied upon as a valid assertion, because there is nothing to base this assertion upon, other than negation, which is NO-thing.

And there are some who do embrace both sides of this duality, them are the ones to pay attention to because they can play in both camps at the same time.
They have a feedback loop built into their experiencing and understanding and gain the resultant wisdom all the more quickly and effectively because of this expanded perspective and viewpoint.

Lastly, the perspective or orientation that is used to approach an inquiry or investigation is key as well.
If your intention is to prove something isn’t, you fall into the logical fallacy trap, which certainly is Not scientific. 
Whereas if you explore and seek to determine what is going on with an experiment, which is a reflection of one’s conscious intent to KNOW, then the predisposition is not a primary factor in determining the outcome.

This is the empirical method in practice, to devise an experiment and thru observation follow where the evidence leads you, and not where it doesn’t lead you.


JJ

*End Part 15


Next up The Prove It Proposition.*


----------



## wink

I can prove the negative very easily.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Almost half of the posts on Head-Fi are negative.


----------



## johnjen

Are you positive?

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So, round 2 of Akiko sticks run amok…

Big Poppa and I swapped the USB stick for the triple canister.

So I then proceeded to perform some surgery on the 3 wires and maxed out the install of this canister to both my dac and amp using the 'Y' connection I was using with the USB stick, but hardwired and no alligator clips. 
Here is what I stared with…


The jumbo alligator clip was used to grab the usb adapter (not shown) and is what I originally used to grab the ground connection on the triple canister.
The 5 ring connectors and bolt will replace the alligator clip and ac power connector.

What I wanted to do is minimize the resistance of the connection from the 2 XLR grounds to the triple wire canister.
So I used ring connectors for each of the 3 wires from the canister and used 1 ring connector for each XLR connector that connects to the ground on the dac and amp.

So I have 5 ring connectors bolted together, and I added silver paste between each ring connector to maximize the contact patch between each of these 5 ring connectors and the bolt and nut on the ends.



Notice the grey paste that is smeared on the bolt threads and is on the surface of the ring connectors.

This is what the whole assembly looks like…



Now this may seem a bit over the top to some, but the way I see it is…

The voltages on the ground plane of these 2 devices is very small with an even smaller amount of current flow.
So the less the resistance from the noise sources to the piezo-electric 'sponge', the more effective the 'sponge' can be.

Thus far it still took 1/2 hr before I noticed any change and now at the 45 minute mark Those micro-details are just starting to blossom.
And all of those micro-details I know are available (from my previous experiments) are just starting to peek from around the corner and are hinting what is to come. 

Also what I've noticed is that after a day or so of continuous use, the SQ morphs a bit as the top end gets just a bit strident.
And then after another day or so the SQ takes a turn towards more of the optimal micro-details.

And one last thing to do is add some of that same silver paste to pin #1 on the xlr connectors, just as that last bit of tweak.


JJ :atsmile:
ps the micro-details are now doing more than just peek…

YEEEHAWWWW!!!!


----------



## johnjen

Heading into round 2 of Akiko Sticks run amok.

So the fuse was lit and just after I exclaimed 
YEEEHAWWWW!!!!
Things then started to morph at an ever faster clip,
And kept going…
And hasn’t stopped…

At one point I had Pam sit in ‘_The Chair Of Optimal Focus’_ of my near field speakers.

She was sitting there and said “I can hear the oboes…” “…you _never_ hear the oboes”.
Next were the french horns and on it went.
Then she said, “You know, I can hear this when I sit in my chair”.

So to put this in context…
Her chair is off axis by ≈90°+ and is 5’ away…
We never play the speakers loud enough so that we can’t talk over them.
And these are cheap (as in $40/pair Dayton bookshelf) speakers being fed by 16 gauge zip cord from my system which is running EQ meant for my 800’s…
And that she could hear all of these details, under these conditions, tells me the system is well tweaked.

AND

I have also noted a large increase in the limits of the dynamic range in terms of how low the MOAR knob can go before I stop hearing the music.
I just exceeded the previous low setting of ≈ 8:45, and now I run into the stop limit (7:00) of the DRC (Dynamic Range Control) in gain-2, all in one step.
Which is remarkable because in the past it was usually only a 15 minute improvement, and no where near this much at once.

AND my tLFF is also back up to 3:00 so the width of my ‘usable’ dynamic range has increased to new record amounts, at both ends.

And so I was pondering why these sticks/canister take a while to be ‘effective’, and thinking it’s like coming into focus or where the ∆ phase relationship is getting into better alignment.

And then it hit me…
Much of these changes and behaviors could be due to resonance effects.
IOW these piezo-electric elements may also have a ‘tuned’ frequency resonant behavior.
Which makes sense especially when you take into account that they have non wired sticks as well, which work solely upon proximity effects.

What this means is, it seems to take a while for the piezo elements to resonate to the voltage signals it ‘sees’.
And they may not only absorb these electrical voltages but may also reflect those same voltages back onto the wire but out of phase, thus helping to cancel the incoming signal.

And as the piezo elements come into entrainment or sympathetic resonance (think clocks on the wall all getting in synch with each other) with the voltages they are being presented with, they then can ‘lock onto’ those signals and have a maximal effect upon them.

Anyway just some ‘off the wall’ er, or, well, ‘out of the box’ thinking. :atsmile:

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> And these are cheap (as in $40/pair Dayton bookshelf) speakers being fed by 16 gauge zip cord from my system which is running EQ meant for my 800’s…
> And that she could hear all of these details, under these conditions, tells me the system is well tweaked.


 

 I'm very intrigued: are these $40 Dayton bookshelf speakers, like, a thing? I mean, it seems you're pairing them with a $1.6K Ragnarok... From what I see in the 2-channel world these bookshelfs are effectively worth a twopence, and hearing advanced tweaks through them would suggest that these transducers offer incredible value. If they're can be as good as that, I'd definitely consider a pair...
  
 PS Very interesting all your reports on the Akikos, and clearly worth a try. Looking forward to a recap on an "optimal" Akiko set-up when paired with the "main" setup on this thread, the Bifrost MB & PS-III & HD650... The number of different sticks, and the various configurations in which they can be stuck, is bewildering.


----------



## johnjen

While they not be a THING, they certainly are quite decent for $40. :atsmile:
And of course since I can't leave much of anything well enough alone, I did modify them with upgraded tweeters and cap ($35/pair).

They are the Dayton B652 bookshelf speakers which still sell for under $40/pair.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-b652-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-pair--300-652

I have been using them as an additional means of tracking and evaluating the tweaks I make to the system as a whole (independent of the 800's).
And the noticeable changes and improvements I hear from these speakers are remarkable in and of themselves.
As in the coupling into the main room of the house has increased multiple times, such that the music can clearly be heard throughout the entire (small) house, even at low to mid listening levels in the near field.
These results (and others) are mighty impressive from such modest speakers.

Which tends to counter the age old wisdom of 'get the best speakers as the highest priority' then the rest of the electronics…

As for these Akiko sticks…
Thus far my supposition about how they work, where they will have the most noticeable effects and benefits, are holding up.

Namely, if they are directly wired, as close as possible to the noise sources (amp and dac), seems to have the most beneficial results. 
I'm still evaluating the non wired version.

AND if you are running your system on poor or ungrounded ac power, these will have the greatest immediate improvement.

But even if your system is tweaked and has a 'solid' ground, the results can be quite lovely.
With a tube like euphonic emphasis and micro-detail increases.

Even out of $40 (now $75) speakers.

So if these sorts of changes are desirable, these Akiko sticks might be worth your time to try out. 

JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> Which tends to counter the age old wisdom of 'get the best speakers as the highest priority' then the rest of the electronics…


 
 My thoughts precisely.
  
 I was actually considering the upgraded Dayton B652-AIR, with an improved tweeter:
 http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-b652-air-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-with-amt-tweeter-pair--300-651
  
 Still sells for a twopence (60$)...


----------



## johnjen

So my experiments have been progressing quite nicely, albeit at a slow recovery pace.
Until tonight.

Wholey Badt Schidt

I've got tubes in my system, somewhere, hidden, glowing away invisible to the naked eye.

SS isn't supposed to be able to deliver this degree of rich, smooth, harmonically fortified, but also tightly coupled and cohesive micro detail, 
ya know, the kinda stuff that tubes are highly sought after for.

Talk about blossoming…


If you have ever heard of *Gaye Delorme* his _*The Best Of…*_ album is killer.
He reminds me of Mark Knopfler, David Gilmore, Eric Clapton, Leo Kottke and Al Di Meola all rolled together, and it's not just his guitar playing but his voice as well.

Killer keyboard player too, and the horns ain't to shabby either…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 16             The Prove It Proposition*

 The Prove It Proposition
  
 Proof, some want Proof in order to validate a position or authenticate some idea or concept.
 And in our world Proof is usually a necessary part of a scientific or empirical approach to gaining further understanding.
 It’s part of the hypothesis to theory to acceptance as a valid reflection of reality.
 And necessary aspects of Proof requires a degree of repeatability and verification.
  
 The thing is most of us lack the means and methods to verify, by direct experience, any particular proposition where Proof is ‘required’.
 So most of us rely upon an ‘authority’ of some sort, someone who embodies a sufficient grasp of a bigger picture, which provides the foundation for a ‘real Proof’.
  
 And without our own direct experience, Proof must be taken on faith by the individual, from the one who is offering the Proof.
 Faith that the person offering Proof is actually trustworthy, knowledgeable, has sufficient direct experience dealing with the topic at hand and has a thorough enough exposure to all the data involved.
 And of course we will ‘examine’ the Proof for ourselves, and scrutinize it for ‘flaws’ or logical inconsistencies etc. just because.
  
 But in our hobby, ‘Proof’ is all to often used as a tactic in a ‘discussion’ which usually more closely resembles an argument, to ‘convince’ the one requesting said ‘Proof’, that the information is ‘correct’.
 This tactic usually just throws out the anchor and all useful dialog ceases at that point, as a line in the sand has been drawn and one is in effect ‘dared’ to step over it.
 IOW it is a confrontational ‘tool’ used to assert and maintain authority.
  
 This whole approach is fraught with foibles and traps galore.
 IOW it’s usually employed as tactic, as a means of maintaining authority and to maintain a sense of being ‘right’ vs being wrong.
  
 Therein lies the crux of the problem with regards to ‘Proof’ in our realm of audio.
 We all have a different set of expectations, biases, and experiences from which we form our understanding of what is, and what isn’t.
 This especially applies to our auditory sense and more pointedly to listening to music.
 All of which is highly personal and unique to each individual.  
 And as such is subject to the nature of change and continued experience which was what is held as being ‘proven’ and considered as known and true, which will, in the fullness of time, change.
 IOW as new knowledge and a more complete bigger picture becomes known, the details and consequences of these changes will impact those very same ‘Proofs’.
  
 Lastly one of the biggest, and as I see it quite deleterious side effect that has been woven into all of this 'prove it’, is the lack of confidence in ones self and more pointedly ones experiences which form the backbone of each of our source of knowledge.
 By that I mean people are second guessing or making excuses for their perceptions, like there is something to be ashamed of.
  
 This, seems to be a matter of self acceptance and belief in ones own viability.
 And our own experiences really are all that we have to use and operate from, as our basis for what we know.
 And of course these very same experiences are the source for growth and learning as we refine our understanding of what is a suitable ‘Proof’ for ourselves.
  
 IOW if one NEEDS verification from outside themselves in order to know what is and what isn't 'real’, then looking to authority to validate themselves, or to confirm the correctness of any experience can be a HUGE gotcha, for a variety of reasons.
  
 And as long as one ascribes to this approach, truly Hearing MUSIC becomes a secondary aspect, with respect to listening to music for its own sake.
  
 And it is MUSIC that is my goal.
 Others have their own goals and will pursue them in their own way and at their own pace.
  
 There will always be those who insist upon ‘Proof' before experience, which is basackwards even within the empirical method approach, let alone an investigatory one.
  
 But one thing that usually, in the long run, does 'get to' those of the 'prove it' persuasion is the sheer volume of evidence and reported experience(s).
 After a while this body of evidence becomes near impossible to ignore, and for some can provide just enough of a spark of curiosity to investigate further for themselves, which opens the door.
 Perhaps it opens just a crack, but sometimes that is all that is needed in order to introduce additional aspects of a more expanded Bigger Picture…
  
 Now does this mean no matter what anyone hears, it is ‘correct’, or at least free from ‘error’?
 No, of course not, but it is to say that the experience is very real, but the words used to describe the experience may not be an adequate nor full description of the experience.
 It can take quite a while (decades even) to be able to ‘translate’ our sense of auditory perception into words with sufficient prowess.  
 But such is not the case for the experience itself, indeed the appreciation of the experience itself can become all the more compelling as our ability to hear into the music becomes honed thru practice and further experience(s).
  
 And as our experiences grow in number and sophistication, we hone our ability to appreciate ever greater degrees of subtlety in the music itself.
 IOW as we become more ‘calibrated’, and know what to listen to as an indicator of what we choose as ‘Better’ becomes easier to pick out while listening to the music we are drawn to,
 we increase our own viability to know and provide for ourselves, all the ‘Proof’ we need.
  
 And along parallel lines, I have found that curiosity, in and of itself, is a marvelous personal trait to foster.
 It can go along way towards helping us (re)discover aspects and attributes to music that fascinate us so…

 JJ
  
*End Part 16*

*Next up         Designers vs Users*


----------



## murphythecat

I must thanks Johnjen and Bimmer. Im playing with sonarworks and my new hd800.
  
 Sonarworks indeed tame the brightness, but I may find that at the same time, naturalness and liquidity seem to be bit lost. Ill have to listen for a couple of days as im very new with hd-800 and it may be my prejudice toward DSP that bias my subjective experience.


----------



## murphythecat

@Johnjen, do you use sonarworks in Linear phase or Min setting? 
  
  
 I also have Fab filter pro q 2 which is very similar in quality to the Equilibirum EQ. I have recreated Tyl hd-800 that can be found here http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-800-s-tweaked-and-delightfuland-french-diy-response. 
  
 Im comparing the fab filter pro q2 vs Sonarworks.
 So far, surprisingly in min phase mode in both plugin, I prefer fab filter pro q 2. Now, is it because the curve differ between sonarworks and Tyl's, or is it because fab filter plugin somehow sounds better. 
  
  
 all very early findings though.
  
  
  
  
 EDIT:I can confirm, Sonarworks is better then Tyl EQ at least in fab filter. 
 Im absolutely sold on sonarworks. WOW.


----------



## johnjen

I used the linear settings as the other two never sounded correct to me (and sometimes led to musicus interruptus…)
  
 And the added latency isn't an issue with my setup, so it was a no brainer.
  
 JJ


----------



## murphythecat

johnjen said:


> I used the linear settings as the other two never sounded correct to me (and sometimes led to musicus interruptus…)
> 
> And the added latency isn't an issue with my setup, so it was a no brainer.
> 
> JJ


 
 Used? Have you stopped using Sonarworks?
  
 I'm surprised you use LP, as min phase is supposedly more natural sounding. Ive been reading about the matter and from what I gather, most pro will tell you that they will use LP EQ only when really necessary as it introduce ringing and unnnaturlness as Linea phase does not occur in nature. analog hardware eq always are min phase... 
  
 I guess ill have to spend more time in LP mode, but so far i find that LP is less natural, bit more crisp and unrelaxed and unnatural compared to min phase.
 maybe im imagining it though


----------



## johnjen

And on a different note…
  
 I just added a 2nd Wyrd inline with my original unit.
  
 I also added 2 new usb cables
 A stubby 6" Belkin A-B cable from amazon ($4.99) and a Schiit Pyst USB cable ($20).
 These will replace a 2m "Belkin Pro Series USB for optimum data transfer" cable that was to long.
  
 The changes I've noticed thus far are an increase in the presentation of the sonic 'landscape' or stage.
 There is more focus and delineation in the 'voices' as well as solidity in their placement within the 'landscape' and an increase in the micro-details.
 And I haven't fully tweaked these new cables yet.
  
 Big Poppa told me about the 6" Belkin as being a huge improvement over a too long USB cable of a generic type.
 And he is right, it along with the 2nd Wyrd is a significant step up.
 And of course he is also experimenting with several different usb 'cleaners', all in a row just to find out which combination works 'best'.
  
 As for the $20 Pyst cable, I figured it was worth a shot as a feeder cable from the Mac to the 1st Wyrd.
 And it has all the 'good stuff', as in it's silver, cladded over copper, on the data lines and oversized wires for the power wires, and is made by Straight Wire…
  
 Bottom line if you want to experiment with enhancing your USB feed for ≈$150 (and the Wyrd and Pyst cable are returnable within 15 days) give this a shot and see if it works for you as well.
  
 And my Akiko stick 2nd gen experiment comes to an end this weekend when the 2 'loaner' sticks (a RCA dbl wire, and a wireless canister) go back.
 It'll force me to figure out the differences that these 2 sticks make.
  
 All while dealing with the 2nd Wyrd and new cables.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

murphythecat said:


> Used? Have you stopped using Sonarworks?
> 
> I'm surprised you use LP, as min phase is supposedly more natural sounding. Ive been reading about the matter and from what I gather, most pro will tell you that they will use LP EQ only when really necessary as it introduce ringing and unnnaturlness as Linea phase does not occur in nature. analog hardware eq always are min phase...
> 
> ...


 
 I didn't entirely stop using Sonarworks, but I have replicated the reverse of the actual curve of my modded 800's using a couple of parametric EQ's and with this setup I can fuss with more resolution than Sonarworks allows.
  
 I do still use it for the 'VU' meters to tell me when (anymore, if) I clip the digital stream.
 And I use it as a 'standard' by which to compare any of my further tweaking.
  
 As for the difference between the min-mixed-linear phase choices.
 I found that fine detail (resolution) was more obscured in the mixed and the min introduced 'musicus interruptus' so it wasn't viable.
 And I can understand the reasoning why the pro's like less latency etc. but it was fairly clear that the linear option was 'Better', and there are others who chose this setting as well.
 Go figure…
  
 Are you using the 'No Limits' curve with your 800's?
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Hi gents, I hope you don't mind me intruding on the thread but I think I have a simple trick you may like.
I have the OPPO ha1 2014 second hand and cleaned the connectors with IPA.
No real change but at least it's good house keeping.

I have been following an good engineer upgrading with new parts. As it's a business and I can only solder and keep hearing about cables... The guys in work use contact cleaner. I did the Googling and found Caig Deoxit. You may have used or heard of others.
My first experiment was the USB and RCA. Both improved but the RCA connectors by a good margin from my little FIIOX3 II. With this I did all my connections and RCA USB Cables OTG my phone power strip and wall socket.
Again definitely a boost to clarity I was hearing.

As the DIYAUDIO guy Coris explained how to open up the OPPO ha1. Most of the internal connections are the usual crimped on wire onto pins in a plastic clip type. I undid the clips, wiped with IPA then used 100% red deoxit.

This was the icing on the cake .. Now every none soldered connection is cleaned and deoxited. ...

The overall difference especially internally has been suprising. It's like I have bought a new machine headphones and music.

£7 has been the best investment I have done. I thought the Supra cable was good.

I'd love to hear what you think especially if you can get inside.

But use ESD protection and plug the cable in switched off. Warranty may be affected for inside.

The guy coris also earth shielded some cables and components for heat RFI and EMI. I will try that next.

But try it on your cables Amp connectors and power chain. If you can safely and with confidence inside connections.

I have spread this about to pay back good advice I have had off HFI but few believe or want to try...

All I have done is reset the potential of my kit. Not a mod but it may help..

I hope this helps on the special journey you do here on this experimental thread 

Good luck and keep smiling 

Dave


----------



## murphythecat

johnjen said:


> I didn't entirely stop using Sonarworks, but I have replicated the reverse of the actual curve of my modded 800's using a couple of parametric EQ's and with this setup I can fuss with more resolution than Sonarworks allows.
> 
> I do still use it for the 'VU' meters to tell me when (anymore, if) I clip the digital stream.
> And I use it as a 'standard' by which to compare any of my further tweaking.
> ...


 
 I found the settings of Tyl's inner fidelity EQ :
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-800-s-tweaked-and-delightfuland-french-diy-response
  
 Low shelf
 22hz
 -4.6 db
 1.16 Q
  
 Low shelf
 75hz
 +3.25 db
 0.75Q
  
 bell
 750hz
 +2.4 db
 0.41 Q
  
 bell
 6110hz
 -5 db
 3Q
  
 High self
 10 400hz
 -5.4 db
 1.5 Q
  
 comparing tyl's setting to sonarworks, I still prefer sonarworks.
  
  
  
 Ill try the LP phase mode. Pro dont use LP mode too often not only because of latency, but much most importantly as it introduce pre ringing which can be (Very) audible when you try to eq a kick drum or a sound with fast transient. all threads I have read definitely seems to point that linear phase is far less natural sounding. Linear phase add artifacts and pre ringing that is more detrimental to SQ then minimum phase.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/569408-linear-phase-versus-minimum-phase-eqs.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/703301-parametric-eq-linear-phase-when-mastering.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/441742-when-do-you-use-linear-phase-eq-over-minimum-phase-eq.html
http://www.head-fi.org/t/616153/linear-phase-vs-minimum-phase-eq-for-powerful-and-tight-bass-boost
  
  
  
 Finally, can you share your eq settings and what VST eq you use? Im still using sonarworks demo and would like to compare your vst eq and settings vs sonarworks! 
  
 thanks for this awesome thread, ill be following your development for sure!


----------



## Middy

Oh one last thing, as I was inside my headphone Amp I thought about your AKIKO-AUDIO stick experiments.

As I was doing the push connectors. I undid all the PCB grounding screws and grounding wires and applied deoxit to the PCB, screws, washers, threads.

I am not sure if this helped but didn't hurt to improve the ground to earth..

For sound or safety.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Hi gents, I hope you don't mind me intruding on the thread but I think I have a simple trick you may like.
> I have the OPPO ha1 2014 second hand and cleaned the connectors with IPA.
> No real change but at least it's good house keeping.
> 
> ...


 
 I've been using the Caig DeOxit for a couple of decades now.
 The Red and Blue are really meant for industrial switch contacts, as in high current contactors etc.
 Their primary purpose is to dissolve the metal oxides that build up on the contacts as they oxidize (this is what Red does) and then 'protect them' (this is what Blue does).
  
 For our audio uses I much prefer the DeOxit Gold instead.
 It is a cleaner and 'contact enhancer' and is very effective on gold and silver etc metals.
 The trick here is to use VERY little, as in lightly burnish the contact surface area with a light moistened cloth, but to make sure the metal contact area is free of any contamination.
 Using more will attract more dust and surface contaminants all that much faster.
 And usually the first use of these products will yield the most significant results mostly due to removal of surface contamination.
  
 Gefski posted a picture of his cleaning kit previously in this thread ( I think) and you can see the removed contamination that has built up on his kit.
 This 'crud' will degrade the SQ of the audio signal in very audible ways.
  
 Also using DeOxit Gold on computer memory dimms and connectors (usb especially) etc can also help reduce 'errors'.
  
 And I use the DeOxit gold cloth wipes and 'augment' the amount of 'gold' cleaner with a spray bottle to the wipes.
 These wipes and spray bottle will last a REALLY long time, as in I am still using my original container of wipes and spray bottle from the 80's.
  
 And there are other 'contact enhancer' type chemicals out there but they are more 'involved' in their use and are more costly as well.
  
 So as a entry into 'contact enhancement' the Caig DeOxit Gold is the best place to start, at least from my experience.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Oh one last thing, as I was inside my headphone Amp I thought about your AKIKO-AUDIO stick experiments.
> 
> As I was doing the push connectors. I undid all the PCB grounding screws and grounding wires and applied deoxit to the PCB, screws, washers, threads.
> 
> ...


 
 The one aspect about the grounding connections, is to make sure they are tight and free from corrosion etc.
 And unless the unit has been 'fussed' with they usually are quite tight from the factory.
 Still, making sure they retain a solid contact is the point.
  
 The Red on them can't hurt but again make sure to use as little as possible.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Thanks JJ,
 in our Aerospace factory it's triple cleaned on our PCBS and the screws are oil free, no silicone allowed so tryed to get the earth 100%. Just going over board on my recent success, the sound is superb now.. From the wall socket to the headphone mini connectors. 
I should get the chance to clean off the red this weekend and put the gold on...

I can't afford the Triple Akiko stick but can wait to see what mini hacks can be done with the dual pin. IFI purifier 2 and deoxit is all I have 8^(
This the pixie dust thread so Iam looking for the magic...

Good luck and thanks

Dave


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

middy said:


> Thanks JJ,
> 
> I can't afford the Triple Akiko stick but can wait to see what mini hacks can be done with the dual pin. IFI purifier 2 and deoxit is all I have 8^(
> This the pixie dust thread so Iam looking for the magic...
> ...


 
  
 Pass the pixie dust to the left hand side!!


 JJ,
 So I'm sending one of the phase reversal trick cables out to another member and going to explain to another one who may want to try it single ended. I just want to make sure that the pin 3 and 4 is flipped on the adapter cable itself, but if someone has a 4pin to 6.3mm TRS adapter afterwards going to an SE amp the PRT still works?


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Thanks JJ,
> in our Aerospace factory it's triple cleaned on our PCBS and the screws are oil free, no silicone allowed so tryed to get the earth 100%. Just going over board on my recent success, the sound is superb now.. From the wall socket to the headphone mini connectors.
> I should get the chance to clean off the red this weekend and put the gold on...
> 
> ...


 
 Pixie Dust-R-Us…
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And if you REALLY want to 'enhance' the ground connections instead of the Caig Labs DeOxit Gold use some contact improvement paste.
 This stuff is really powered silver in a suspension of oil or somesuch.
 It will increase the contact patch size for the metal to metal contacts, thus lowering the resistance (if ever so slightly) of the ground connections.
  
 This in some cases can result in significant improvements, such as 4 pin XLR connections.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Pass the pixie dust to the left hand side!!
> 
> 
> JJ,
> So I'm sending one of the phase reversal trick cables out to another member and going to explain to another one who may want to try it single ended. I just want to make sure that the pin 3 and 4 is flipped on the adapter cable itself, but if someone has a 4pin to 6.3mm TRS adapter afterwards going to an SE amp the PRT still works?


 
 Yes, the right channel (pins 3 & 4) are swapped.
  
 And as long as the swapped pins (balanced wiring) is between the load (headphones) and the adapter that unbalances the 4 wires down to 3 wires (the TRS connector) it should work fine.
  
 But DO NOT try to swap the right channel with ground while using only 3 wires.
 That will short out the right channel, as in not a good thing.
  
 However you can swap the right channel wires at the TRS, IF there are 4 wires with 2 going to each driver and they are not interconnected elsewhere.
  
 I have an 4pin to TRS conversion adapter which works quite well, as does Big Poppa for his main connection to his Single Power amp.
 This is also where he adds his Akiko stick, at the 4pin to TRS converter cable.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Right on right on. I'm going to give away the two I got from you and Bob, for people to try on their rig. Going to be making my own to keep the cable the same on my custom cables.

Cheers!


----------



## johnjen

murphythecat said:


> I found the settings of Tyl's inner fidelity EQ :
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-800-s-tweaked-and-delightfuland-french-diy-response
> 
> comparing tyl's setting to sonarworks, I still prefer sonarworks.
> ...


 
 I'm currently using Tone Boosters EQ, their TB FLX 4 v.3 and TB FLX v.3 concurrently.
  
 I chose this EQ because it has a wide variety of different shaped filters so I can tailor the response curve to suit what I want vs. just what the 'standard' curves allow.
 And I'm using the built in parametric EQ in Jriver for the SSBB as you'll see.
  
 These are the settings I'm using now.
 Type of curve      Hz     Gain      Q
 Gamma             1358    +4.5     0.98
 LSF                     362     -2.0     1.29
 Analog Bell        3556     -0.8      5.0
 Harmonic Log    5023    +3.5      5.0
 Gamma             2130     +2.1     2.12
 Analog Bell        6306     -5.0      5.0
 Analog Bell           60     +2.0      4.0
 Analog Bell      14550     -4.3      5.0
  
 Built in EQ            12      +16       0.55
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

I took your advice and removed the red deoxit. I IPA cleaned the screws especially with the oxide that came off the aluminum chassis threads. A quick blast of air down the holes then very light gold on all plugs, ribbons and screws.
What I did do extra was remove the earth bond crimp washer, 1500 grit sanded with gold Deoxit and also the case frame. 

This is the main earth and as you said it's the total surface area that counts. It's strange but I am hearing a wider sound stage something the OPPO never gave me much of.. My IFI IPURIFIER 2 replacement came yesterday.
Now I can really hear when it's in line. Again this was a slight effect before..

I have some Silclear silver compound coming this week to try next. 

The transformer base legs underneath had conformal coating, they got cleaned/ Sanded also. 

One silly earth idea... To improve the earth don't they have all grounds go to one point "star grounding". I thought this was the basic premise you are trying with the AKIKO. I thought about taking all the earth points,using fine shielded wire and attaching to the main ground? Would that introduce more RFI EMI ?

Just a thought of the day...

Thanks for the help and keep up the good cooking..

Dave


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> I took your advice and removed the red deoxit. I IPA cleaned the screws especially with the oxide that came off the aluminum chassis threads. A quick blast of air down the holes then very light gold on all plugs, ribbons and screws.
> What I did do extra was remove the earth bond crimp washer, 1500 grit sanded with gold Deoxit and also the case frame.





> This 'star' washers (if that is what was in there) are not very good, for a variety of reasons, and getting rid of them is a step up.





> This is the main earth and as you said it's the total surface area that counts. It's strange but I am hearing a wider sound stage something the OPPO never gave me much of.. My IFI IPURIFIER 2 replacement came yesterday.
> Now I can really hear when it's in line. Again this was a slight effect before..
> 
> I have some Silclear silver compound coming this week to try next.





> That should also really help with the 'contact patch' enhancement.





> The transformer base legs underneath had conformal coating, they got cleaned/ Sanded also.
> 
> One silly earth idea... To improve the earth don't they have all grounds go to one point "star grounding". I thought this was the basic premise you are trying with the AKIKO. I thought about taking all the earth points,using fine shielded wire and attaching to the main ground? Would that introduce more RFI EMI ?
> 
> ...


 
Star grounding is the 'ideal' way to ground for the lowest noise etc.
But it is seldom actually used in it's 'strict' sense, especially inside most components.
  
And speaking of star grounding, Big Poppa has been trying different grounding schemes and is now using a Granite Audio Ground Zero model 500 grounding box with surprising results, especially since he is running ungrounded, by necessity because his apartment only has 2 wire power distribution.
  
And we just finished re-grounding his Single Power amp.
I replaced the corroded 4-40 screws and added silver paste to the contact points for the main grounding points.
I'll let him comment on what changes/improvements he has noticed.
  
The basic idea, at least as far as I see it is, the Akiko sticks are lowering the noise floor of whatever they are plugged into.  And proximity seems to be an important factor as well.
And while a star ground will also help, adding the Akiko sticks at the sources of the noise seems to make a greater improvement vs adding an Akiko stick at a star ground point.
  
But doing both also seems to help as well.
  
One possible complication to adding additional grounds to our audio systems is the potential for introducing a ground loop into the system, which raises the noise (mostly hum) into the system.
  
It will be obvious when this happens, but what to do about is more problematic.
  
Sometimes just isolating (removing from the newly added grounding wiring) a specific component will suffice, or in some case the reverse does the trick (only adding a more robust ground to just one 'noisy' piece of gear).
  
This is some of why grounds are a little talked about, let alone explored aspect of improving our gear.
But there be HUGE SQ gains to be had by 'improving' (reducing) the 'stray' voltages and frequencies on the ground plane for our systems.
IOW as we lower the ground potential and make it more 'stable' even if only in a local area (our audio systems), there are quite impressive gains to be had. 
  
And the approach we are taking using the Akiko sticks is not the only approach available.
But it is completely non electronic, albeit it is an electro-mechanical device and there are 'sticks' and a canister with no wires, at all.
I'm in the middle of evaluating a wireless canister right now.
  
  
And having not even tried any of the other approaches to stabilizing the electro-mechanical environment other than using these sticks I can only assume they too might result in a change.
The evaluation of these changes (Better or not) is for each to make.
  
But I am suitably impressed ever since tuubz mysteriously manifested into my system of all SS gear.
And it was these silly sticks and especially the canister that was/is responsible for this new level of SQ.
  
And we've really only begun to delve into this entire subject.
  
But so far so good.
  
JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> I've been using the Caig DeOxit for a couple of decades now.
> The Red and Blue are really meant for industrial switch contacts, as in high current contactors etc.
> Their primary purpose is to dissolve the metal oxides that build up on the contacts as they oxidize (this is what Red does) and then 'protect them' (this is what Blue does).
> 
> ...




Cleaning some nos tube pins today, I was reminded of another product that we haven't covered in the contact cleaning discussion.

For significantly old/tarnished surfaces, I've always started with a good siver/metal polish. I like Maas or Simichrome. One tube will last your lifetime (unless you use it up polishing your wheels). Rub til you get lots of black residue, then when you polish off you'll see that you're down to a brilliant metal finish. I don't use this where I can't get to it for complete removal.

I follow with Caig Red then finish with Gold. As JJ suggests, red is a more powerful cleaner. (You can see the specs for the cleaner concentration on the Caig site.)


----------



## Middy

Maybe strap the stick to the power cable like the single stick in conjuction with the other points you guys are trying...

With the esoteric experimental end of headfi The nuclear powered BYBEE on the earth...I just don't want to spent to much.. I can see now there are so many options you can play with. I will follow the work with open minded interest... Good luck as always..


----------



## johnjen

After my next paper on Designer's vs. Users, I'm going to write one on contact resistance reduction.
  
 This is aimed at using contact enhancement products and the benefits of 'clean' metal to metal contact, among other aspects.
  
 Most never clean their I-C's nor any of the other connections and as a result when the 1st cleaning is performed it usually makes a big difference as all of the crud that gets built up inside the connector contacts is removed.
  
 If you look back at gefski's picture of his cleaning gear, earlier in this thread you'll see evidence of the residual amount of crud that contaminates these connections.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

That would be a great help and back up the reasons why both external and internal breakable connections influence the equipments ability to reproduce the sound. Would micro ohm meter show this as a before and after cleaning?

Good work as always and thanks for the help JJ

Dave


----------



## bimmer100

I'm clearing out a lot of my gear, and likely selling some of the big items soon too. Anyhow. those who might be interested, check some of my classifieds.
  
 my modified Audio-Gd DIU8 is for sale with either NDK or crysteks
 intona industrial version
 less loss firewall with oyaide c-079
 hdmi cables for the diu8/i2s
 a teddy pardo 5v/3A linear psu 
 paul pang v3 ocxo usb 3.0 pcie card with 2.5mm dc inlet option
  
 likely selling some more stuff once I decide.


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> That would be a great help and back up the reasons why both external and internal breakable connections influence the equipments ability to reproduce the sound. Would micro ohm meter show this as a before and after cleaning?
> 
> Good work as always and thanks for the help JJ
> 
> Dave


 
 Being able to read micro Ω is a bit tricky for a variety of reasons, but if there were a way to do so that was reliable and repeatable then yes that would be great to have those measurements.
  
 And removing surface contaminants, oxides, and all manner of crud should be evident in even static measurements.
 But music is dynamic and how all of this crud affects a dynamic music signal is of even more significance than just a fixed Ω number.
  
 And other aspects such as capacitance effects (as you mentioned), diode effects and other 'non linear' sorts of behaviors that occur in metal to metal contact, all of which has a greater impact upon those small signals dynamics, more so than the larger signals.
  
 And it's those very small signal dynamics, when the rest of the system is sufficiently tweaked, where we hear increases in those acoustic attributes we so cherish, such as 3d sound staging, the effects the room has on the harmonic characteristics of the 'voices' etc., etc.
 Not to mention being able to hear the 'proper' harmonic structure of each 'voice' vs. listening to a 'version' of it.
  
 For example there are the gains that are quite evident with the reduction of the electrical system noise on the ground for the entire system.
 In this case, those desirable small signals, that we don't hear, due to being obscured by additional 'noise', that when removed makes a noticeable improvement.
 And with similar net gains, removing the crud from the connections results in a similar net improvement, even though the method of obscuring these small signal details is coming from a near opposite direction.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> And it's those very small signal dynamics, when the rest of the system is sufficiently tweaked, where we hear increases in those acoustic attributes we so cherish, such as 3d sound staging, the effects the room has on the harmonic characteristics of the 'voices' etc., etc.
> Not to mention being able to hear the 'proper' harmonic structure of each 'voice' vs. listening to a 'version' of it.
> 
> 
> JJ




+1


----------



## murphythecat

johnjen said:


> I'm currently using Tone Boosters EQ, their TB FLX 4 v.3 and TB FLX v.3 concurrently.
> 
> I chose this EQ because it has a wide variety of different shaped filters so I can tailor the response curve to suit what I want vs. just what the 'standard' curves allow.
> And I'm using the parametric EQ built into Jriver for the SSBB as you'll see.
> ...


 
  
 so you do prefer the SQ using tone booster over Sonarworks?
  
 ive tried the exact same setting and I find the SQ is not as good as sonarworks. it sounds very different actually and sounds almost nasal. maybe Im missing something


----------



## BIG POPPA

So last night had xtreme4099 over. He had to listen to the rig. He said it was the best it ever sounded. So while he was listening I took all the Akiko sticks off the rig. That smooth glorious sound just withered away. HD700's went back to the warm harsh high frequency beasts they are.So plugged everything back in. Everything is fine now. It was a cool experience to do. Now if you have any Akiko sticks in your rig, try that and post what happens........


----------



## Torq

big poppa said:


> So last night had xtreme4099 over. He had to listen to the rig. He said it was the best it ever sounded. So while he was listening I took all the Akiko sticks off the rig. That smooth glorious sound just withered away. HD700's went back to the warm harsh high frequency beasts they are.So plugged everything back in. Everything is fine now. It was a cool experience to do. Now if you have any Akiko sticks in your rig, try that and post what happens........


 

 At some point this week, my girlfriend is going to pull the Akiko AC sticks I have without telling me.  I've not gone to the lengths with them that @johnjen has described, and I suspect you've taken them further too, but it'll be very interesting to see if I notice after she removes them.
  
 I'll definitely post back once that's done.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

How long have you had the hd700 and how long have you had your Akiko stuff? I'm wondering if the hd700 sounded good before the akiko on your rig and the Akiko added to this or the hd7 was never a fit and the akiko made the two a match. 

I ask because if it's the former then the Akiko had a compounding effect and if it's the latter they had a proper matching effect.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Torq, do it while you are listening, you can turn your back. So you can hear the degradation and then the rejuvenation. It is that noticeable. 

Good synergy question Andrew. It sounds awesome on the HD650's too.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Awesome. So they're pretty universal in making rigs sound good.


----------



## BIG POPPA

soundsgoodtome said:


> Awesome. So they're pretty universal in making rigs sound good.


 
 Piezoelectric effect does not care what gear you have........ Just sayin'


----------



## Torq

big poppa said:


> Torq, do it while you are listening, you can turn your back. So you can hear the degradation and then the rejuvenation. It is that noticeable.
> 
> Good synergy question Andrew. It sounds awesome on the HD650's too.


 

 I'll have to try it both ways ...
  
 Just to satisfy myself it's not just an expectation bias thing.  
  
 I might be paranoid, but that does _not_ mean they're not out to get me!


----------



## BIG POPPA

Torq I do have one mod you don't. The one one the headphone cable. To me that one makes the biggest difference.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

So Akiko sticks can have a negative effect as well? Maybe something I need to try at a meet, they're interesting gizmos to say the least.


big poppa said:


> Piezoelectric effect does not care what gear you have........ Just sayin'


----------



## Torq

big poppa said:


> Torq I do have one mod you don't. The one one the headphone cable. To me that one makes the biggest difference.


 

 Is that the universal one that just straps onto the cable with velcro/zip-ties?


----------



## BIG POPPA

torq said:


> big poppa said:
> 
> 
> > Torq I do have one mod you don't. The one one the headphone cable. To me that one makes the biggest difference.
> ...


 
 This one has the RCA connector removed and has a spade connector instead. And is connected to the TRS.


----------



## Torq

big poppa said:


> This one has the RCA connector removed and has a spade connector instead. And is connected to the TRS.


 
  
 What's part of the TRS is it connected to?  The ground line?
  
 Only asking so I can have a play myself ... after getting the new amp in, and researching tubes, I'm feeling all "tweaky" again.


----------



## Middy

Some pictures would be nice if that's possible of the connections please BP

8^)


----------



## Torq

bimmer100 said:


> I'm clearing out a lot of my gear, and likely selling some of the big items soon too. Anyhow. those who might be interested, check some of my classifieds.
> 
> my modified Audio-Gd DIU8 is for sale with either NDK or crysteks
> intona industrial version
> ...


 

 I'm contemplating taking the LessLoss Firewall off your hands ... will let you know before the end of the week (don't hold it on my account if you get another offer).
  
 Are you moving a way from using USB and DDCs or have you just settled on a setup you like (feel free to tell me to bugger off if it's none of my business)?


----------



## Middy

Me being mean with money and cobbling not half understood information together..

If piezoelectric effects are a 2 way street. Stress creates a current... current coverts energy through movement.

If that is the case..what would a cheap ultrasonic transducer do if placed in line or parallel to the ground plane?

I was thinking of encasing it in silicon window sealant so it doesn't doesn't create a voltage.. and using the ground to convert signal noise/current to sound/ transducer movement to energy. Ect... If that makes sense. ..

Just my silly mind working...

I did ask an engineer... He did mention that an unwanted parasitic resonance could occur. So mechanical damping with the silicon sealer..????


----------



## BIG POPPA

torq said:


> big poppa said:
> 
> 
> > This one has the RCA connector removed and has a spade connector instead. And is connected to the TRS.
> ...







middy said:


> Some pictures would be nice if that's possible of the connections please BP
> 
> 8^)


We talk tubes Torq . Middy really.


----------



## Middy

.... I am a visual learner.. It's what I tell the wife when she catches me on the Internet... learning...


----------



## BIG POPPA

middy said:


> .... I am a visual learner.. It's what I tell the wife when she catches me on the Internet... learning...



You're in the wrong thread my friend. You just missed the arm chair quarter back thread a few threads up.....


----------



## johnjen

murphythecat said:


> so you do prefer the SQ using tone booster over Sonarworks?
> 
> ive tried the exact same setting and I find the SQ is not as good as sonarworks. it sounds very different actually and sounds almost nasal. maybe Im missing something


 
 Thus far I prefer the tone boosters approach but then again it is more tailored to my modded 800's than even the no limits curve for the 800's, so it's a better fit.
  
 And when I tried this approach before (well before sonarworks popped up on the scene) it too sounded funky and weird.
 So I abandoned it and went in a different direction.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> So Akiko sticks can have a negative effect as well? Maybe something I need to try at a meet, they're interesting gizmos to say the least.


 
 Yes they can, IF you 'go to far' with them.
  
 By that I mean if to many sticks are added to the system they seem to 'over compensate' and the SQ falls off after they fully settle in.
  
 I had the triple on my amp and dac and then I added a double to the dac as well and added a wireless canister strapped to the power cables at the duplex rectiptacle.
 The SQ went soft, like it was over damped, as the life in the music got sucked out.
 Until I removed the dbl from the dac, then the life in the music came back.
  
 As I see it now, the triple when connected to the amp and dac makes the biggest difference.
 And adding a wireless canister on the power cables is kinda like icing on the cake.
  
 At least in my system anyways.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> Is that the universal one that just straps onto the cable with velcro/zip-ties?


 
 The universal one is what I have strapped to my power cables at the duplex recpt.
 As I mentioned it's like the icing on the cake.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> What's part of the TRS is it connected to?  The ground line?
> 
> Only asking so I can have a play myself ... after getting the new amp in, and researching tubes, I'm feeling all "tweaky" again.


 
 Yes, the S of the TRS has a wire that is run out of the connector with a spade lug on the end for the re-wired dble stick to plug into.
  
 It works really well on Big Poppas setup because he is running un-grounded and this connects directly with the ground plane at the out put of the amp.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Me being mean with money and cobbling not half understood information together..
> 
> If piezoelectric effects are a 2 way street. Stress creates a current... current coverts energy through movement.
> 
> ...


 
 The stress creates very low current but fairly high voltage (depending upon the design).
 And the reverse also holds true where high voltage creates greater displacement, but again the current is very low (little power is involved).
  
 And what the akiko sticks 'seem' to be doing is holding the crystal elements in place while the voltage is applied and so as they try to displace (move) but are constrained by the 'potting compound', the voltage is converted to heat and not movement.
  
 As to how they 'couple' with resonances without a direct electrical connection (wireless) I'm not sure, other than they may be using a mix of different 'resonantly active' materials.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Some pictures would be nice if that's possible of the connections please BP
> 
> 8^)


 
 I looked and the only pic I have is a during construction shot.
 It doesn't show the actual wiring as it exists in the connector.
  
 Perhaps I'll get a chance to take a pic later when I make another one.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I have added the 2nd wyrd along with a 6" 'stubby' usb cable that interconnects them and a Schiit Pyst usb cable into the system.
 I have cooked these cables and they are settling in.
  
 I'll get a chance to hear what happens when I pull the wireless canister out of the system after the new usb setup fully stabilizes.
  
 I'll probably also pull the triple canister out as well just to further document the changes.
  
 But thus far there is NO incentive to want to mess with the SQ I have now, other than for strictly scientific reasons.
  
 As a hint of the measure of the improvements, my cheap speakers are most impressive…
 The sound stage has really come into much sharper focus, which I attribute to the 2nd wyrd and cable upgrade.
  
 The euphonic toobz (which are still invisible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) I attribute to the akiko sticks/canisters.
  
 Together they make for an even more compelling musical experience.
 And these changes haven't fully settled in yet.
 And if the past chages/improvements are repeated I figure I'll be setting new records in terms of overall acoustic levels of performance.
  
 And there are additional tweaks, just waiting for when things settle in and stabilize.
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> So I have added the 2nd wyrd along with a 6" 'stubby' usb cable that interconnects them and a Schiit Pyst usb cable into the system.
> I have cooked these cables and they are settling in.
> 
> 
> I'll get a chance to hear what happens when I pull the wireless canister out of the system after the new usb setup fully stabilizes.


 

 When you "cook" the cables, what do you do exactly? Are you cryoing them?
  
 And I'm curious why you stick to the USB setup instead of building the system upon SPDIF (either coax or optical)? USB seems to be the noisiest solution available, and perhaps some of these tweaks would be unnecessary (or have a more profound effect) if a less noisy transport were used from the start...


----------



## Torq

landroni said:


> When you "cook" the cables, what do you do exactly? Are you cryoing them?
> 
> And I'm curious why you stick to the USB setup instead of building the system upon SPDIF (either coax or optical)? USB seems to be the noisiest solution available, and perhaps some of these tweaks would be unnecessary (or have a more profound effect) if a less noisy transport were used from the start...


 

 For some information on cable cookers/cooking, you can have a read here.  I believe @johnjen uses one of their units.  I'm tempted to grab one myself and have a play.
  
 This is different to cryogenic treatments.
  
 And, with my tongue firmly in my cheek ('cause it's hard to argue with the results John gets), I'd say USB offers far more opportunities for tweaking than S/PDIF over optical ...


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> Yes, the S of the TRS has a wire that is run out of the connector with a spade lug on the end for the re-wired dble stick to plug into.
> 
> It works really well on Big Poppas setup because he is running un-grounded and this connects directly with the ground plane at the out put of the amp.
> 
> JJ


 

 Cool, makes sense, thanks!


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> When you "cook" the cables, what do you do exactly? Are you cryoing them?
> 
> And I'm curious why you stick to the USB setup instead of building the system upon SPDIF (either coax or optical)? USB seems to be the noisiest solution available, and perhaps some of these tweaks would be unnecessary (or have a more profound effect) if a less noisy transport were used from the start...


 
 The link that Torq supplied is the cable cooker I use and it can cook just about any cable, except ethernet and opitcal cables.
 It essentially throws current down the cables using either a swept triangle or square wave which 'conditions' not just the conductor but perhaps more significantly the insulation as well.
 And after cooking and cryoing cables, the net results are most impressive.
  
 I originally used ethernet as my data path of choice to feed my dac.
 But ever since I got a wyrd and a better usb cable (and cooked it) the usb has delivered a superior signal.
  
 I recently went back and tried an optical cable but it too falls short.
 And I just added a 2nd wyrd and am using shorter usb cables, which again raised the bar, and in a significant way.
  
 As for coax, I don't have a coax source to feed my dac to even try, and most ddc's use usb as their input which doesn't bypass usb's idiosyncrasies either, so I'm experimenting with optimizing the usb path.
  
 I'd love to get a mac based pci card that outputs AES/EBU directly but they are usually massive overkill (as in multiple channels and WAY expensive) and of questionable SQ since no one else uses them.
  
 And thus far, usb as 'funky' as it is, can be quite nice, when it's 'properly' tweaked.
  
 JJ
 ps the AudioDharma cooker now offers "GROUND BREAKER Power Cable Adapter Set" for cooking the ground wire in power cables.  This could be a significant improvement if the sonic attributes of improving the grounding of our systems can be tweaked by cooking the ground wire as well.


----------



## Middy

Sorry BP I am a bit of an armchair quarterback only through no electronics knowledge. It was more just to get an idea of what you are doing,rather than stealing ideas for free. Your hard work is yours alone.. to do as you wish.
So apologies if I made that impression my friend..8^). I had a graduate scratching His head when I mentioned using a piezoelectric device as a noise filter. Parasitic noise, then digital and sine wave basics....
If Akiko do what I think..Piezoelectric device and added voltage creates energy but then creates a voltage! 

De coupling and using the incoming voltage. Like a capacitor or via inductance?? To shed the voltage noise but stop a feed back?

So a wired in cheap device just causes issues rather than fix. An Akiko stick is like a muffler for ground noise.
That's my simple view from my limited understanding. The last layer absorbs that vibration in the stick...
I throw ideas in here just to help, if they have any merit great..Just to put a smile on your face is good with me 2.
I just want to learn 8^).

And JJ thank you for helping me with my other outside interests. It's a bit random at the moment but some deeper thought and why it works, helps my cause. It now seems crazy not to get the kit 100% before starting to view or make additions first. It's like buying chrome wheels to make the car look better but the rest of the car is filthy...

Now cold cryo annealing metal and heat cycling via cable cooker... I have seen big billets of metal left out side for months too reduce micro fractures especially castings before machining. 
You guys proving fairy to fact is a great learning experience so thank you.

Dave 8^) 

An Intona usb filter is my last under the radar purchase for a while. That comes next week hopefully with the Silclear... I asked where it was and they are waiting a delivery so I can't do the earth/screws and xlr yet.......

Squalene oil in the contact cleaners made me laugh... It's shark oil...
Snake oil isn't as good I hear...


----------



## johnjen

Ok so here is an experiment that costs no money, will take very little time, and might just open a few eyes…
  
 If you have a crossfeed circuit in your system, try turning it off (or on as the case may be) and listen for any qualitative changes to each individual 'voice'.
 Try to ignore the sound stage changes and only focus upon the 'integrity' of each 'voice' as it is presented.
  
 I would assume that different methods of inserting these signals into the mix will yield differing results.
  
 And be sure and report your experimental results back here.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Sorry BP I am a bit of an armchair quarterback only through no electronics knowledge. It was more just to get an idea of what you are doing,rather than stealing ideas for free. Your hard work is yours alone.. to do as you wish.
> So apologies if I made that impression my friend..8^). I had a graduate scratching His head when I mentioned using a piezoelectric device as a noise filter. Parasitic noise, then digital and sine wave basics....
> If Akiko do what I think..Piezoelectric device and added voltage creates energy but then creates a voltage!
> 
> ...


 
 As I see it sharing the results of our experiments and investigations just might spur others to pick up the baton and run with it, and perhaps take them even further.
  
  
 The cryo treatment basically tends to 'straighten out' the crystalline structure of metal which might also help to smooth the surface as well.
 But this is speculative on my part, although I have read some reports that 'strongly' pointed in this direction.
  
  
 The cooking doesn't really involve heating the wires, rather it passes a 'strong' current thru the conductors which in turn fluxes 'strong' magnetic and electrostatic fields in and around the cables being cooked.
 My 'take' on this is, this fluxing 'scrambles' or re-orders, or resets the dielectric (insulation) to be (more?) 'neutral' to these fields.
 This also applies to the conductor itself, and I figure that it helps to set up the dielectric to absorb the electrostatic charge more evenly as well.
  
 IOW cooking 'treats' the wire and insulative materials to be neutral in terms of how they 'react' to the voltages and currents that the cable will actually be used for.
 At least that is what my speculative head scratching comes up…
  
 And these 2 processes work rather well together to produce 'Better' results.
  
 JJ
 ps "Piezoelectric device and added voltage creates energy but then creates a voltage!"
 My speculation is…
 The piezo-electric material is held in a dense bonding compound (think potting compound) which while being conductive also will hold the crystals 'tightly' in place.
 This should reduce the amount of movement/displacement of the crystals as the induced voltage tries to get them to move.
 This in turn means they will generate even smaller 'back voltages' and will tend to dissipate the induced voltage as heat.
  
 Of course this doesn't apply to the wireless canisters and sticks which I figure must operate on matching resonances with the fields it is in.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> The cryo treatment basically tends to 'straighten out' the crystalline structure of metal which might also help to smooth the surface as well.
> But this is speculative on my part, although I have read some reports that 'strongly' pointed in this direction.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for this. I too was wondering what was the intended effect of 'cooking' on the cables.
  
 As for cryoing, having discussed this a bit with Torq, my understanding is that cryoing has an effect on the cables' internal structure. There will be clear changes in the crystal/boundary structure (which can even be seen under an electron microscope). Now, and this is conceptually related to the cleaning of connectors with e.g. Deoxit, "every boundary in the internal make up of a cable has similar properties to the connections in an electrical cable [...] in that they can result in signal reflections in the cable. Now those boundaries are very very small, so the reflections are similarly tiny (compared to the huge boundary you find with an RCA connector) and the effects are going to be small. But ... making the crystals LARGER reduces the number of boundaries and reduces this effect so, in theory, you should get a cleaner signal. [...]  And such treatment very definitely, and measurably, affects the strength of metals."
  
 I suspect such improvements will manifest themselves sonically, as you often suggest, only in well-tweaked systems that have few bottlenecks elsewhere...
  


> And these 2 processes work rather well together to produce 'Better' results.


 
  
 Do you mean that you will both cryo and cook the same cable?


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 17             Designers vs Users*
  
 Designers vs Users
  
 This is a distinction that I have not seen mentioned in audio, specifically, what are the differences between designers/engineers of our coveted gear and us as users.
 These 2 groups perform very different 'tests', have very different expectations, utilize the gear very differently, and have very different environments within which we evaluate gear.
  
 And I need to point out that this isn’t meant as a value judgement, in any way shape or form, but as an examination of the 2 very different approaches these 2 groups use in spending their time in ‘working on’ their system/component.
 Indeed the lines between these 2 ‘camps’ can all to easily get blurred if exactitude is attempted.
 So this is primarily aimed at exploring these 2 different approaches to using all this gear.
  
 And granted many designers will spend many hours listening to gear but are they doing so as users or designers?
 I submit it isn’t as a designer, at least not for hours and hours on end.
 The ‘luxury’ of listening for listening’s sake is what a user does.
  
 To expect a designer/engineer to spend hundreds or thousands of hours using and listening to the same piece of gear and document its changes thru time is unrealistic, at best.  
 But that is exactly what we as users can and actually do.
  
 To expect a designer/engineer to run a particular design with the same ancillary gear, let alone in a typical 'home' as we users will, for these extended periods is also unrealistic.
  
 Conversely while some users might have extensive measurement capabilities, this is somewhat rare.  
 So we users use the ubiquitous test and measurement systems available to us, namely our hearing which is conditioned by our expectations and has been calibrated by our experiences.
  
 In short we as users determine if a component might work well in our system(s) based upon our previous experience and from experiences of those whom we trust or those who have a congruent set of expectations to ours.
  
 And as an aside. Another similar type of comparison is…
 Some would prefer to use a musician as a 'standard' or benchmark to determine what is 'real’. This approach is going to yield different results because what we as 'the audience' experience is by definition going to be a different experience from that of the musician.  
 Much like the recorded sound of any instrument is going to be different than what the musician experiences.
  
 A case in point is, a friend of mine listened to my headphone system and said "This doesn't sound like what I heard while playing in the orchestra".  
 Quite right!  
 We hear what the audience is supposed to hear which is the sum total of the piece of music that is being projected towards the audience.
 And not what the musicians themselves hear while playing.
  
 And in a similar vein designers/engineers are concerned with the specifics of the operation of the circuit and also tackle the challenges of manufacturing the design etc.
 While we users are tasked with integrating this specific design into our existing setup.
 Our process of integrating can run the gamut of using different cables, or tubes, or acoustic treatments, or selling off that component or perhaps others because they simply don't work well in our system anymore.
  
 Which brings me to my next point.
 Some of us can and do change gear like changing our wardrobe.  If it doesn't fit, we sell it off.
  
 While others (myself for instance) will explore what can be done to see if our new electro-marvel will or can be made to fit, just a bit better.
 Which presupposes that we chose well to begin with.
  
 Or better yet we will tweak the gear to more closely match our specific expectations, to suit our requirements all the more.
 Sometimes this process can take many thousands of hours of experimentation, to try this and that, mostly based upon suggestions, or tweaks performed by others, and/or our own past experiences.
 And as we gain experience with dialing in these tweaks we come to know what their ‘signature’ is so we can then tailor our desired end results to better suit our expectations, or perhaps, hopefully, exceed them.
  
 But once these tweaks have ‘proven’ themselves so as to become a ‘known’ factor, they usually take much much less time to implement.  Such as change a fuse, or add vibration control, or perhaps additional cooling, etc.
  
 All of this is not something designers/engineers will take the time nor devote the resources to explore.
 And to a certain extent the amount of time spent in pursuing these sorts of tweaks can become counter productive, especially for a designer/engineer, and especially if taken to an extreme.
 But not for us as users…
  
 That's what we (can) do as hobbyist’s, play around with stuff to dial in our system to meet our expectations, which are unique and often not fully realized to begin with.
 And yes some do take modding to an extreme, but they usually also know to take responsibility for their actions, although some will try to ‘pull a fast one’…
  
 Some users mod and push the envelope to explore the scaleability of the gear we own by whatever means is ‘appropriate’, based upon the users circumstance, $, experience/talent etc, which all factor in.
 Some experienced DIY’rs have a range of options and choices of tweaks to choose from in order to push the envelope, and hopefully in the direction of choice, ie. ‘Better’.
  
 IOW the purchase of gear is just the 1st step in ownership for us as users.
 But it’s the last step (except for any warranty/repair issues) for the designer/engineer.  

 JJ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

*End Part 17              *
  
*Next up         Connector Contact patch resistance reduction*


----------



## Torq

Ms. Girly removed the Akiko AC stick from my rig yesterday, without telling me (as arranged).
  
 I did not notice immediately.  In fact it was a couple of hours into my evening listening that I "felt" something was "off".  It was most striking when Leonard Cohen's "Show Me the Place" was playing and the space of the piece just wasn't _right_.  And it was at that point I took occasion to actually look at my rig ... and lo-and-behold, the Akiko stick was missing.
  
 I would consider my electrical system fairly quiet and, as @johnjen might say "well grounded", so the effect was subtle, yet noticeable.  And I only have the one Akiko device in play at the moment.
  
 I am on record as being a bit skeptical about these things, but the fact that I noticed at all has me wanting to add some more and see if the effect is cumulative as others here are finding (I'd love to hear @BIG POPPA's highly-tuned/tweaked rig).  Happily this stuff is relatively inexpensive (less than a tube-swap for sure) and easily performed/removed.
  
 So ... tomorrow will be a more overt test with what I have ... in other words, turning my back and having Ms. Girly randomly remove/replace the stick while I am listening.  And after that I think it'll be adding some more of these devices to see what they can do.
  
 I want to remain skeptical - it's the engineer/scientist in me - but that's harder to do when I don't know the change has happened and I still feel/hear something is different.


----------



## johnjen

Interesting that you noticed a lack of 'something' in the presentation, all based upon your long term audio memory of a track or an aspect of a 'voice'.
  
 This is the most difficult way of 'testing' to determine if an experiment or investigation has 'merit',
 that being, by negation.
  
 Remove it from the system (either blind or with awareness, which sometimes can be harder) and try to describe what the differences are.
 And to see if these determinations are repeatable, is truly THE acid test to top it all off.
  
 In my case I noticed that certain tracks lost their 'vitality', became somewhat lifeless and monchromatic (the '*voices*' tended to merge into a 'ball of sound') with a decided lessening of *HB&W* and *T3*.
  
 But as soon as the canisters were back in and settled back down, those same previously kickass tracks, came back to life.
  
 And speaking of coming back to life…
  
 Tonight the *SuperGlue* effect has returned, which tells me that the new usb cables and 2nd Wyrd are settling in nicely.
 Currently I'm at ≈260hrs on the cables after cooking them and 360hrs for the Wyrd.
  
 The bass has become extended and each '*voice*' has impact that reaches WAY down low, and the mids and up have a degree of micro-detail that is most intriguing and delightful.
  
 IOW *C3* has set new heights in terms of having an integrated sound field, with a commensurate increase in '*voice*' integrity.
 So if the patterns hold up, in ≈ 200hrs things should be quite settled down and a new peak established.
  
 Big Poppa was right, the 2nd Wyrd and 6" usb jumper cable is a significant step up for the USB data feed to the dac.
 And when used with the Akiko sticks/canisters, well, the results are setting new degrees of acoustic wonderfulness.
 And this degree of wonderfulness is also 'bleeding over' into less than stellar music (ZZ Top is intriguing)
  
 And this usually results in new terminology being coined, such as *Tuubz,* except there is more yet to be revealed in the totality of this iteration. 
 IOW the system hasn't peaked yet, and when it does that is when new terms tend to spring up.
  
 Right now Paul Simon's Kodachrome has my head dancing on my shoulders, like there is no tomorrow.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

As an example of perfect when it's new, isn't perfect because it's new....
Just received a wireworld chroma A B 20 INCH. 90ohm... I did a wipe inside and out of 90% IPA. Deoxit red...The black muck that came off new plated gold connectors....
Incidentally I got the Intona the non industrial version, very nice effect on my OPPO. A guy on CA measured a drop in noise floor using the intona 15-20 DB.
It's made the sound come into focus and made the experience more Holographic. 
The percussion/ cymbals sharp and have zing. Voices ve definition. Bass more even sounding. Plugging and unplugging definitely changes. (Not a psychological effect.. 8^). 
The ifi ipurifier 2 I have won't work post INTONA. I think because the output is 300mv. Galvanic isolation 2 spartan FPGA'S...Pre clocking..Some have posted that galvanic Dacs don't have as a marked effect.
I like it but another expensive but under the radar purchase..
Oh I cleaned the connectors for the extra AB cable you need...


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> snip
> Incidentally I got the Intona the non industrial version, very nice effect on my OPPO. A guy on CA measured a drop in noise floor using the intona 15-20 DB.
> It's made the sound come into focus and made the experience more Holographic.
> The percussion/ cymbals sharp and have zing. Voices ve definition. Bass more even sounding. Plugging and unplugging definitely changes. (Not a psychological effect.. 8^).
> snip


 
 The most impressive improvement (but not the only one) I have noticed from adding the 2nd Wyrd was to the soundstage, as in it has much more 3d resolution along with tighter definition to all the 'voices' AND to the acoustic 'space' itself.
 Or put another way the holographic nature of my system took a mother may I step up.
 My term *Holo* was just been redefined with new degrees of focus and resolution as a result.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

That's really wyrd stuff JJ. So just for the sake of trial and possibly even bigger returns, when are you guys trying 3 Wyrds?

Any reasoning for the improvement here? And are there issues with hi-res material say 176/192khz data?


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> The most impressive improvement (but not the only one) I have noticed from adding the 2nd Wyrd was to the soundstage, as in it has much more 3d resolution along with tighter definition to all the 'voices' AND to the acoustic 'space' itself.
> Or put another way the holographic nature of my system took a mother may I step up.
> My term *Holo* was just been redefined with new degrees of focus and resolution as a result.


 
 I wonder how much things would improve if instead of the 2nd Wyrd (or the of the Wyrds altogether) a simple and inexpensive USB -> SPDIF converter were used, like the Musiland 01 USD:
 http://www.musiland.com.cn/index.php/Product/show/id/143
  
 For instance, I would expect that its Optical transceiver would generally work better than those included in laptops, and that any and all electric noise picked up from the computer would be dropped at the opto-coupler...


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> I wonder how much things would improve if instead of the 2nd Wyrd (or the of the Wyrds altogether) a simple and inexpensive USB -> SPDIF converter were used, like the Musiland 01 USD:
> http://www.musiland.com.cn/index.php/Product/show/id/143
> 
> For instance, I would expect that its Optical transceiver would generally work better than those included in laptops, and that any and all electric noise picked up from the computer would be dropped at the opto-coupler...


 
 I didn't see a price but I figure it's gotta be ≈$100, which is the cost for a Wyrd.
 And the wyrd does both power supply isolation and digital signal re-clocking.
  
 Also Big Poppa is also using an iFi product and another usb isolator as well.
  
 And 2 Wyrds is still less than most of the other products with similar functionality.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I've got the ifi purifier 2 and have been very impressed with what i like to call "active ferrite core." It is a great piece of gear, I would say even more so than the ifi usb power. I'll be getting a second one and stacking the ifi purifier 2 (I use at work) with the usb power I use at home. Galvanized usb on the ifi usb power 3 had me interested but I got the 2.0 version for a good deal.


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> I didn't see a price but I figure it's gotta be ≈$100, which is the cost for a Wyrd.


 

 Yes, the Musiland comes at 70$.


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> That's really wyrd stuff JJ. So just for the sake of trial and possibly even bigger returns, when are you guys trying 3 Wyrds?
> 
> Any reasoning for the improvement here? And are there issues with hi-res material say 176/192khz data?


 
 When we were researching this, one guy (I forget where I read this and who it was) did try 3 Wyrds but the improvement fell of by quite a bit with the 3rd Wyrd.
  
 So using 2 seems to be the 'optimal' setup, which I can confirm does make a significant improvement.
  
 It will be interesting to see how well a 'decent' optical SPDIF cable will compare.
  
 But what still gets me about these digital cable and data delivery tweaks are the types of impact these improvements make.
 I mean *tuubz* like colorations and soundstage enhancements, wouldn't be on my list of what I'd expect to hear, at all, just due to digital cables and digital data path refinements.
  
 Yet another mystery of sorts.
  
 So what happened with your phase reversal experiments with your friends?
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Will you be making Portland JJ?



johnjen said:


> When we were researching this one guy (I forget where I read this and who it was) did try 3 Wyrds but the improvement fell of by quite a bit with the 3rd Wyrd.
> 
> So using 2 seems to be the 'optimal' setup, which I can confirm does make a significant improvement.
> 
> ...




Also, my friend that I sent prt cable to runs an oddball player for Macs. I forget the name but it doesn't have a phase reversal plugin, its more a media server type player I want to say. I've yet to ask if he was able to ge the trial of jriver (foobar a no go on mac). He'll be at the bottlehead meet, I'm sure he'll hear it then. 

The only issue with the wyrd (maybe it was just my unit) was its lack of 192khz support. I could care less about the uber sample rate but it was the only way the Bimby can run NOS which to my ears sounded more natural over the "perfect filter" upsampling it was doing on anything lesser than 176khz but I digress. I'm schiitless now so none of that matters.

I'm curious as to how this incoming Mutec 3+ compares to our more "conventional" approach if power regen, ddc, etc.


----------



## johnjen

I should be making the Bottlehead meet, but not the portland meet.
 And gefski and I are combining our units for a schiit stack with tweaks for this next meet.
 And I'll have my 800's along with my Akiko canisters to plug into this setup.
  
 I'm not sure what you mean by "lack of 192khz support".
 I mean as I type this I'm listening to Hotel California in 192K thru my 2 Wyrd stack…
 Is there something I'm missing?
  
 As for the Mutec 3+ word clock, I agree it might be very revealing of how important the word clock timing is, separate from the data isolation efforts, and apart from the +5vdc supply stability.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Ooh the yggyrag, that will be a popular station!! Plus Glenn can still rum the Woo amp se for some added flavor. 
---
Odd, never got any of my HDtracks in 24/192 to work with the wyrd in line but take it off the chain and go direct and it was fine. Never heard of a usb interconnect unable to send that depth/rate (only other factor vs direct usb in) so I'm guessing it's was a bad unit?


----------



## landroni

soundsgoodtome said:


> The only issue with the wyrd (maybe it was just my unit) was its lack of 192khz support. I could care less about the uber sample rate but it was the only way the Bimby can run NOS which to my ears sounded more natural over the "perfect filter" upsampling it was doing on anything lesser than 176khz but I digress.


 

 That's interesting: I was always wondering how/if people would find NOS 192 different from Mike's upsampling filter on the Bifrost MB. In your case, did you use the same masters for the comparisons (i.e. 192 kHz versions downsampled to 44.1 kHz)?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Yes, same master but kept it in 24bit and applied dither. 192 to 48 and 176 to 44.


----------



## gefski

soundsgoodtome said:


> Ooh the yggyrag, that will be a popular station!! Plus Glenn can still rum the Woo amp se for some added flavor.
> ---




Just bringing the Stax rig. Woo is staying home, doesn't want to get beat up by the big bully Rok after school.


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Just bringing the Stax rig. Woo is staying home, doesn't want to get beat up by the big bully Rok after school.


 
 It's probably more like it doesn't like the competition for who makes the most heat…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Hi gents, 
 Good news on the Soldering front inside the OPPO. I could only do the small transformer wires and large toroidal leads with the silver solder I have. My home iron isn't suitable for fine work and my eyes are starting to go....

IPA cleaned the female crimps rub Down 2000 grit inside and soldered the wires on rather than the mechanical grip.
A pain to do as after soldering.. IPA again to get the flux off and some Deoxit. . 14 power leads later. 

A light rub of 2000 grit on the board male pins
Make sure they are flat and smooth...

Then a quick electrocution tripping the fuse board and making me see stars...
board was live when I put the iron on...idiot..didn't turn it off again...
Oh soldered the earth lead and crimp washer. Tinned the whole thing to get more surface area touching it..

I am a happy bunny.. more detail off this extra work. Even though it had been deoxited 2 weeks ago. Not a subtle increase either.

The CILCLEAR better come this week, was dispatched Friday now it's in stock.

Nice to see all these efforts work.. Silclear the last piece of the experiment ... But hard soldering all connections would solve this. I am sure most high end gear has this unless modular.

If I did hard solder I'd have to totally remove all boards as you would get dry joints under the pins...

Bigger and more detailed sound.. bloody lovely...
A smaller WW chroma AB even with the dirt on the gold plating didn't seem to add much post intona.
The INTONA is staying with The IFI IPURIFIER 2. 

I had an old Oppo Jaguar sat in a garage..
This is now race tuned to what I had before just magic..

So I am now positive that as people find the best cables, amps and DAC'S there is plenty potential locked up inside because of its never touched,even bought in parts. Nothing is perfect unless hard soldered but you can get to the point were it sounds like it is....

Thanks guys for pushing me to try new things and experiment.
...
CILCLEAR and maybe bundle the cables and shield them.. Do some of the other Coris OPPO heat and RFI shields...

I am so happy hehe hehe.....




I won't go into details.... but a home made Ultrasonicesque IPA bath in a glass dish got all the dirt off the screw threads... All fun...

Cheers 
Dave


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Got the ifi purifier 2 before the ifi usb power and the sound is clean clean clean! Very impressed.

I should mention usb cable is wireworld starlight silver clad throughout.


----------



## ColtMrFire

Some experiments I did with ERS paper, with wonderful results:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/783686/schiit-bifrost-4490-impressions/195#post_12533130


----------



## Middy

Thanks colt,I thought as the other poster said he put copper on IC'S.
Blocking RFI you would drain that to earth via a cable. EMI is a bit like squishing the magnetic wave at the barrier and drain. (Sorry for the simplistic answer it's all I know)
So the paper must be a RFI shield?
Correct me if I am wrong....I know little..
You might kill 2 birds with one stone..
The copper foil cut and placed on top of IC's but the non sticky side down.
Then use TIM thermal interface material.The silver stuff for computer heatsinks. 
Use the copper as a heat sink and RFI shield combined...Just a thought..


----------



## johnjen

coltmrfire said:


> Some experiments I did with ERS paper, with wonderful results:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/783686/schiit-bifrost-4490-impressions/195#post_12533130


 
 That sounds like an interesting bit of tweaking.
  
 RF is weird, in a lot of ways.
 But it seems to me that since the chips are inside a case that it might be more of the 'stray' RF from the rest of the circuit inside the case rather than from 'external' sources as being the culprit.
  
 I need to read your full report to see if any of the benefits resemble other tweaks I've tried.
  
 Cool stuff…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Thanks colt,I thought as the other poster said he put copper on IC'S.
> Blocking RFI you would drain that to earth via a cable. EMI is a bit like squishing the magnetic wave at the barrier and drain. (Sorry for the simplistic answer it's all I know)
> So the paper must be a RFI shield?
> Correct me if I am wrong....I know little..
> ...


 
 The only caution I'd add to your 'sandwich' would be to NOT let the silver thermal paste ooze out and short out the pins beneath.
 That would be bad…
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Just an initial report...just got the Silclear silver... Headphone pins 3 pin IEC uk 3 pin plug... positive so far no negatives. Going for whole chain and power. Also all internal connections this weekend.. Wish me luck...


----------



## Middy

It is messy stuff both TIM sand the Mapleshade Cilclear. Very nervous about creating shorts.So no more than 3/4 down a pin...very thin smear.i predope it first with a tiny amount...

Cheers JJ 
Keep smiling brother...

Dave


----------



## johnjen

Also consider using the ever so smallest amount of silclear on the fuse to the fuse holder where they make contact.
 And talk about the possibility of a short…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Tread carefully and consider worse case possibilities.
  
 BUT having performed this tweak myself it did make a change and I'd term it an improvement.
  
 JJ


----------



## ColtMrFire

johnjen said:


> That sounds like an interesting bit of tweaking.
> 
> RF is weird, in a lot of ways.
> But it seems to me that since the chips are inside a case that it might be more of the 'stray' RF from the rest of the circuit inside the case rather than from 'external' sources as being the culprit.
> ...


 
  
 The Schiit equipement/cover is supposed to shield against external EMI/RFI from what I've heard, but I also heard electronic components can generate the stuff themselves, inside the equipment.


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> But it seems to me that since the chips are inside a case that it might be more of the 'stray' RF from the rest of the circuit inside the case rather than from 'external' sources as being the culprit.


 

 Yes, that would be my intuitions as well. Moreover, I would expect this tweak to help more with DS chips, which operate in faster MHz ranges, than with R2R chips which stay in the slower kHz range.


----------



## Middy

http://www.bga-reworking.co.uk/anti-static-foam-swabs-for-cleaning-bga-pcb-100-swabs-cm-fs742-cleantip-106.html

Was looking for a better solution to Q tips..cotton buds.. We do not use these in work as we has industrial controlled washes. ESD and non shedding...clean room quality. Handy for cleaning and applying...

Another handy tool. ESD safe...


----------



## gefski

Great article from Juergen Reis of MBL, right down the alley of what you guys are doing. As a designer/manufacturer, he found sonic differences he couldn't measure, then developed procedures that focused on measuring components *while fully connected in a system*. With that, he found measured differences.

I've been familiar for years with amplifiers that measure great into an 8 ohm resistor yet perform poorly when driving real loudspeakers. But he's expanded his "real world" testing way beyond that.

http://www.audiostream.com/content/open-and-tolerant-mbls-juergen-reis-listening-measurements-and-uncertainty#CFaeSjvFAMLlhukL.03


----------



## johnjen

Thanks for that link.
  
 Good advice such as he gives is appreciated, at least by me.
  
 And this quote raised my eyebrows,
 "You must use a test signal that shows you differential and intermodulation distortion, *noise floor modulation*, aliasing, and jitter, and has a similar DR ratio as typical music."
*Emphasis mine…*
 This is what I think the Akiko sticks are addressing.
  
 And I agree that using a whole system is the best way to evaluate a component change, once a baseline has been established.
 And we do that using our hearing, but adding appropriate instrumentation would be confirmation with numbers.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Dismissing proves nothing. Testing it can be dismissed proves everything....


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Dismissing proves nothing. Testing it can be dismissed proves everything....


 
 This type of proof can be problematic most times.
  
 As in, proving a negative is nearly impossible, especially in the real world, vs in theory.
 But then proof of 'stuff' and it's behavior doesn't really exist in the realm of theory, rather it's the opposite.
 Theory is an attempt to explain 'stuff' (and other stuff) and its behavior via being codified.
  
 But that is the trick isn't it, to be able to actually prove a negative.
  
 As a result I generally don't even try, rather I look for positive associations and relationships that withstand the test of time.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

The Bottlehead meet is right around the corner and my system is gunna peak during the meet.
  
 It's really close to reaching new heights in terms of overall SQ, right now, and the peak is ≈ 20-30hrs away, that is if the pattern continues, which it sure seems like it will.
  
 This is gunna be kewl!
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> middy said:
> 
> 
> > Dismissing proves nothing. Testing it can be dismissed proves everything....
> ...


 

 Exactly. You cannot prove that a device has "no issues" (i.e. is "audibly transparent").
  
 The most that you can do is take a finite set of known issues with associated tests (themselves, a finite set), run the testing simulations, notice no issues in particular given subjective interpretation of the testing results, and declare that you _cannot detect_ any issues from those tested. This is a far cry from "proving" audible transparency, and if a trained ear hears something wrong and points it out to you, then you better listen carefully and see how existing tests can be improved or what other tests you could come up with to attempt to measure this new experience...


----------



## Middy

Ah gents it wasn't a definitive piece of scientific insight...I am just glad I am testing rather than go on reviews and opinion... It's been more fun than I thought... My last little effort with cilclear on the internal pins...when the wife leaves for work tomorrow...

I'd already done the whole chain with Deoxit and other contact cleaners. So wasn't sure about sonic changes with Cilclear.
Good but dangerous stuff. For fine contacts the tip of pin. Sort of listened to JJ before going mad on the 3 pin plug and tripping the house fuse...

Did find an audiophile article that mirrored my own experiences and really promotes internal cleaning. An audiophile colonic...


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Ah gents it wasn't a definitive piece of scientific insight...I am just glad I am testing rather than go on reviews and opinion... It's been more fun than I thought... My last little effort with cilclear on the internal pins...when the wife leaves for work tomorrow...
> 
> I'd already done the whole chain with Deoxit and other contact cleaners. So wasn't sure about sonic changes with Cilclear.
> Good but dangerous stuff. For fine contacts the tip of pin. Sort of listened to JJ before going mad on the 3 pin plug and tripping the house fuse...
> ...


 
 Yeah, I kinda figured it wasn't a died in the wool statement, but my response was more to clear up the notion that negation can be easily proven as a matter of course.
  
 As for that audiophile colonic…
 As long as you've got the good Schiit to begin with, well, I figure you can take it from there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

The last of my mini experiments completed yesterday. It was a little scary when you are playing with semi liquid conductor in a can...
Mapleshade Cilclear silver contact grease..The tub seems huge until you open it...It is a Cod Piece in false advertising...But that little does go a long way....
You also get a small brush but I only used that on the UK 3 pin and Male IEC pins... After that I applied with the end of a sowing needle for accuracy and loading control. Some of the male pins on the connectors are a few mm wide..

Cleaning....
I have had Deoxit gold sat on the pins for 3 weeks now after using red a while ago. Also the female wire crimps have been soldered to thier wires in the power toroidal plastic push fit connectors..

There are smaller female push fits crimps but I didn't have the equipment at home to solder one side with accuracy and deemed to much of a risk..

They got dipped in IPA to wash out copper oxide...Green sludge.. blew out 
With air and a dip of contact Z for good measure..
There was traces of flux on the Dac board IC'S op amps.. IPA SOAK and esd foam stick rub. Then blow off again..

As this is cleaning in extremis...All pins got an IPA soak to remove deoxit residue and the contact Z contact cleaner. Then using the Sowing needle applied Cilclear half way down the smaller connectors male pins...

So 5 hours of my life later... OPPO HA1 reassembled and plugged in..

The sound has that little bit extra depth and dimension from the last deoxit clean. Many would say it's purely in the mind.. Effort or money spent = change regardless....

To me even after previous Deoxit treatment the Cilclear has made the sound that bit more smoother but snappy.
More hitting bass and percussion.
Voices now sound that bit more intelligible and some back ground details never heard before appear. .

Causes of contact resistance are many..
Pick the point in the design or manufacturing process this starts.

The only true way is hard soldering from scratch so no degradation over time.
Internal connectors only creep with heat changes.They never get refitted like USB POWER OR AUDIO Cables.

A long process but applied to the extreme of ability and home capabilities for my personal experimenting and just OCD....fun

Was it worth it...At the time no..
Now I am listening to my efforts...
God yes. WHY replace your kit before you know it's true potential....

This is bloody fantastic and no I cannot measure it's change with a scope, A/B this kind of work or even get a fellow Oppo owner to compare it... It's is improved from start to finish and makes me smile. I did my best to see what's possible. Just a dollop of Deoxit would improve things.

This now....Just makes me happy...
Ask for help. The earth screws and screw holes uber cleaned. All Cilcleared carefully and even the case screws to the earthed chassis...

Job done..


----------



## johnjen

My next paper is on contact enhancement and the reason for that is, it has really helped, especially in certain areas.
  
 And yes it can be a PIA and time sucker, especially if you go after everything all at once.
  
 And that tiny tub of Silclear will probably last you for the rest of your life…
 No, I'm not kidding and this stuff is a MAJOR bargain when compared to the other offerings, especially the $200 stuff (for the same amount).
  
 It's much like deoxit gold, I am still using the stuff I bought back in the late 80's and I still have ≈ 50% left.
  
 As for the sonic changes, give it some time to fully settle in, as in these tweaks take a few hours to fully manifest.
 And no I have no explanation as to why this is so, but if you log the hrs of usage thru time (as I do) patterns emerge.
  
 I figure at ≈125hrs ± you'll hit a peak.
  
 And sometimes these peaks can be jaw droppers… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

As always..Thanks for the help, advice and confidence to try this JJ..BD et al . 
Much appreciated and always warranted..
Cheers...8^)

Much easier to spend on the never ending hype train. Things do move forward in design technologies by good engineers/ designers. 

A lottery win and a phone call to Part time Audiophile for £300,000 system advice... would be nice. Our mid fi purchases are mass production family cars...quality at a cost.. 
We have the time as you rightly say to expand and experiment on that. We clock on when they clock off work...

It's gave me some confidence/self worth and a small sense of pride with the result. I will try the custom headphone cable now I have the parts for the ETHER.. 

Good luck all and keep smiling...
Dave


----------



## Middy

I had some gold plated caps for the RCA in outs I didn't think they would do much other than dust caps. Can't hear anything. I tried a small rca to rca cable and bridged the in and out. Anything can be done with the unused connections? No issues I can tell..just interested.

Oh as my Oppo HA1 is waiting for the silver grease to settle in.. I am setting the unused parts Optical, blue tooth,RCA.
Seeing if that speeds up the process full volume. See what happens running other parts of the circuit...
Just trying new things...


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 18     Connector Contact Patch Resistance Reduction*
  
 In my experiments and investigations I have looked into the relationship between the ‘size’ of the contact patch in the connectors (RCA & XLR) and the resultant change in signal transfer as it relates to audible changes to the music.
 And since I lack the instrumentation necessary to perform ‘proper’ micro-Ω measurements, I must infer that these contact patch enhancements do lower the resistance across the contact of a connector pair.
 And it is a fairly ‘safe’ assumption to make where an increase in the surface area of 2 contact patches will reduce the resistance across that mated pair of contacts.
  
 Recently I increased the metal to metal surface contact patch using a silver paste for my 4 pin XLR headphone connector.
 There was an immediate change in the presentation of the music.  And this was after also noticing changes to the presentation of the music when I cleaned and conditioned that very same connector using Caig DeOxit Gold.  And although this initial treatment didn’t increase the contact patch size it did improve the contact patch by removing contaminants and helping to seal the surface of the metal against further oxidation and corrosion.
  
 Another example of increasing the contact patch was when I soldered the wires of a splice in my dedicated branch circuit ac power feed.  
 This effort resulted in a most welcome change in SQ of the music, especially after I also soldered the ground return wire.
 This significantly reduced the resistance and the ability to flow current even though the current draw for this dedicated branch circuit is minimal (120w), which is equivalent to 1 amp of continuous current draw.
 I figure the improvement was mostly because the size of the contact patch was increased.
  
 Next is an examination of the connectors themselves, and in general terms, some of their design strengths and weaknesses.
  
 For the ‘line level’ audio signal itself we have 2 main connector types, the RCA and XLR.
 And for power the ubiquitous IEC connector on one end and a suitably styled connector for the electrical system in use on the other.
 And since there is but one ’standard’ AC connector, no comparison is really possible in this case.
 And it should be noted that applying the contact enhancement (silver paste) to the ac power cable connector pins also yield significant improvements as well.
  
 But the signal cable does accord us an interesting chance to test where contact patch increases/reduction in contact resistance, can make an audible difference.
  
 So what are the main differences between the RCA and XLR connectors?
 Mostly it’s all about contact patch size, reliability and durability of the connection.
  
 In short RCA connectors are not very ‘robust’, while XLR’s are designed to be used in a variety of commercial applications, where set up and tear down is not just necessary but is done so on a frequent basis.  All the while retaining a reliable connection, despite ‘abuse’ of the cable itself.
  
 And one of the reasons for their robustness is the size of the contact patch, but also the design of the mating surfaces themselves, as they tend to ’self clean’, far better than RCA connectors.
  
 But RCA connectors are the standard audio connector and they have come along way from the original design and implementation.
 And these days the aftermarket offers some very advanced designs to help improve the reliability and durability of the RCA design from the 40’s.
  
 Quoting Wikipedia…
 RCA
 “It was originally a low-cost, simple design, intended only for mating and disconnection when servicing the console. Refinement came with later designs, although they remained compatible.
 RCA connectors began to replace the older quarter-inch phone connectors  for many other applications in the consumer audio world when component high fidelity systems started becoming popular in the 1950s.”
  
 XLR
 “Originally manufactured as the Cannon X series, by 1950 a locking mechanism was added (Cannon XL) and by 1955 a version surrounding the female contacts with a synthetic rubber polychloroprene insulation using the part number prefix XLR.”
  
 and this is an interesting bit, here…
 “At one time XLR3 connectors were also used extensively on loudspeaker cables, as when first introduced they represented a new standard of ruggedness, and economic alternatives were not readily available.”
  
 IOW XLR connectors have been used as speaker connectors due to their ability to handle greater amounts of current.
  
 And the locking feature of the XLR connector is a clue to its superiority over the RCA connector in that when the connectors are mated they are aligned and held in place in their ideal placement, ie. straight in and not drooping due to the weight of the connector and wire.
  
 This cable droop can significantly alter the contact patch size of RCA connectors as the mating surfaces are no longer in ‘proper’ alignment.  And there is no ‘mechanism’ built into these connector designs to insure this degree of ‘proper’ alignment, like the XLR connector has.
  
 But the clincher is the size of the contact patch difference between them.
 The RCA does have a single pin in the center to mate up with its counterpart, but even here we see several variations in design of those pins and its mating surface in the female connector.
 But the ground connection has an inherent design limitation.
 Besides being exclusively a friction/clamping type of connection, the primary contact junction is at the tip of the ground tab ‘ears’ themselves.
  
 And I’m sure there are other designs which increase the size of actual metal to metal contact, but even though it represents the largest surface area for connection, it actually delivers the least.
 And that assumes it is plugged straight into its mated connector.
  
 Perhaps a bit of insight can be gained by examining the current and resistance rating of these 2 connectors.
 The XLR rating is readily available such as this Neutrik XLR spec
 3 pole: 16A
 4 pole: 10A
 with a resistance rating of ≤ 3 mΩ (that’s 0.003Ω)
  
 Switchcraft provides these specs for their RCA connectors…
 Contact Resistance (typical D.O.M.J.):< 0.020 ohms.
 (D.O.M.J. ­ Dependent On Mating Jack)
 Current Carry @ Working Voltage
 (typical D.O.M.J.): 6.0 AMPS.
  
 The difference in contact resistance is an 85% improvement and a 62% increase in current delivery in favor of the XLR connector.
 And when silver paste is added those resistance and current numbers should be improved still further.
  
 Another example of improving the contact patch area is by using silver paste on the fuse where it contacts the fuse holder ‘fingers’.
 So if I use as an example a typical 5x20mm fuse, which has 4 contact lines per end of the fuse each of which is (I’m guessing here) ≈.2mm in width by 5mm in length.  This equates to ≈8mm^2.
 So if I add some silver contact paste to those 8 lines and increase their width from .2 to 2mm in width the total surface area for each fuse has increased from 8mm^2 to 80mm^2 or a 10 times increase in the contact patch surface area.
 The total surface contact area for this fuse is ≈ 157mm^2 which equates to a change from 5% to ≈ 51% of the available surface area being used after adding the silver paste.
  
 And it should be noted that as the resistance is lowered across the fuse to fuse holder junction, it generates less heat due to lowered Ω across the junction which also means less voltage drop, which also implies greater peak current delivery capacity.
 Now granted these changes are small and if the current that passes thru the fuse were more of a steady flow (such as a light bulb or a motor these changes might not make much if any difference especially if the current draw was as small as what my system uses.
 But the power supply in our amps and dacs etc doesn’t operate with a steady flow.
 Instead it draws current in pulses, which in turn means the amount of current during the peaks of those pulses is higher than 1 amp, and they have a relatively short duration, which is repeated in an ongoing manner.
  
 So really what are the benefits to lowered contact patch resistance, especially in terms of the sonic improvements?
 I figure that small signal dynamics and micro-details would be improved, since these are the electrical signals that are most effected by small improvements of lowered contact resistance.
 Which means more of the signal is delivered to us, or as I am wont to say “the system gets out of it’s own way” all the more.
 And this is what I do hear as a result of paying attention to improving the contact patch of the connections in my system.
  
 JJ :thumb

*End Part 19              *
  
*Next up         Auditory memory*


----------



## gefski

Recently "trending" in RCA connectors is a *reduction* of contact patch size, going away from a full "collar" to a single small contact point. See Nordost, Eichmann, and others.

Go figure.


----------



## Middy

Looking into why contact resistance was affecting my OPPO HA1. I thought it wouldn't do a thing but if you don't try... 
Internal connections never get moved.

Some things I learned...
Even on connections like XLR with gold plating need to be lubricated. As even though the plating seems smooth it can cause a bow wave scraping the plating.
You can get Nickel bleed through the plating increasing oxidisation...

That plating under a microscope would look like 2 saws loosely placed on each other only touching at a few points.

Gold doesn't corrode... pure gold isn't reactive...It still picks up any contaminants from the manufacturing process other mating surfaces, the atmosphere dust. ..

A soldered joint is as near we can get to an unbroken path for the current to travel along.

Flux in soldering acts as aggressive acid stripping off oxide and contamination for the instant the hot solder flows the joint. Keeping oxygen away from the bi metal interconnect.
But as tempting as soldering everything from the power station to headphone plugs.....


Flux removes oxide. Deoxit removes oxide of the metal surfaces..

To act as the solder I used Mapleshade Cilclear. Food grade grease and 15 micron silver particles.

Anyone making their own PC uses a super flat smooth heatsink on the CPU. 

But those two microscopically small saws need those troughs filling to increase the surface area for max heat transfer.

We want maximum surface area for contact conduction.

I can see going for 1 good point of contact is more effective than the random contact of the RCA causing different electrical effects.

Some Aerospace connectors have a minimum 6 points of contact. 

It maybe time to move to a better quality audio interconnects. Not cast offs from different industries from the past.

The internal breakable connections are a time capsule of when they were made. How they were assembled. How they were stored. Restoring them to best by mimicking soldering can have a suprising effect on audio quality.

I hope this adds to JJ'S good work here..

Take care

Dave


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## Middy

One strange effect I have noticed is that after 10 mins of warm up I get a small jump in sound volume and a bit more detail.reducing the volume still has the extra clarity.? ??

Maybe the grease becoming less viscose?
Reduced resistance or better conductor??


----------



## BIG POPPA

It's called getting into focus. A rig gets there in about an hour or so.


----------



## Middy

Ah Cheers BP... Me being the nervous type..After applying the Mapleshade Cilclear and getting the volume jump I thought I'd broken something.....

Wasn't straight away though... 

Have a good one

Dave 8^)


----------



## johnjen

In my normal course of tweaking, it usually takes an hour or so before there is a noticeable change, which hangs on for the next several hours of use.
 But usually the first 10 hrs starting at ≈2hrs of continuous use, the SQ will peak, which gives me a clue in terms of if the tweak is a step up or not.
 Then the SQ morphs and gets less focused, then more, then less, etc. for 2-300 hrs. of use (and sometimes more).
  
 This pattern has been consistent for just about every tweak and change and experiment I have made.
 I wish I knew why and what is really going on, but these SQ shifts and changes are probably not something that is measurable, at least by any 'standard' test I am aware of.
  
 This trait of shifting and changing over several hundred hours really slows down my rate of experimentation, since I need to wait until the SQ stabilizes before I determine if the latest tweak is a keeper or not, before trying the next tweak.
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> In my normal course of tweaking, it usually takes an hour or so before there is a noticeable change, which hangs on for the next several hours of use.
> But usually the first 10 hrs starting at ≈2hrs of continuous use, the SQ will peak, which gives me a clue in terms of if the tweak is a step up or not.
> Then the SQ morphs and gets less focused, then more, then less, etc. for 2-300 hrs. of use (and sometimes more).
> 
> ...


 

 Ouch! 300 hrs --- that hurts. So much for instantaneous DBT'ing cables, tweaks, etc.
  
 But 300 is really a lot -- that's two weeks. Is it possible this is related to reaching some kind of thermal equilibrium, as the Schiit DACs are famous for?


----------



## BIG POPPA

With 300 hours , you are convincing yourself. With true blue tweaks, it should be very transparent . Don't try something because it might do something, try something because it will do something. Bold thoughts, bold tweaks..... Great insight, some work, some do not. Just the way it goes. My 2 cents


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## johnjen

landroni said:


> Ouch! 300 hrs --- that hurts. So much for instantaneous DBT'ing cables, tweaks, etc.
> 
> But 300 is really a lot -- that's two weeks. Is it possible this is related to reaching some kind of thermal equilibrium, as the Schiit DACs are famous for?


 
 The "thermal" explanation is insufficient in my book.
 That is to say yes it is involved, but is only one aspect of several others, all of which contribute to what is going on.
 In my experience there is aging and 'acclimating' of all active and passive parts that is of much greater impact and importance.
  
 Think of it this way…
 Each component in a piece of new electronics has gone thru 100 hr's of being on and functional.
 This is the factory burn in testing, mostly to catch infant mortality issues, before they are more expensive to fix (return to the factory for repair).
 But what I hear is a gradual coming into focus which can take, again, several hundred hours before full stabilization and peak performance is achieved, at least in my system anyway.
 That isn't to say the SQ is bad, but it is to say when it reaches 'optimal' operating condition it (the SQ) IS Way *better*.
  
  
 I pay close attention to the SQ and keep track as it changes in a daily log.
  
 I have been seeing this pattern for quite a while.
 You may not notice this in your system.
  
 However with mine it can be rather 'pronounced' at times, like when it heads into the ceramic throne.
 Only to emerge on the 'other side' performing way better than it was before the swirling, gurrgling, event.
  
 The thing is, as the overall system SQ improves, everything, all the time gets better.
 Which means even when the system isn't performing at it's peak it is still WAY better than it was.
 IOW even at its off peak times it has all of the aspects I have documented previously.
  
 But when it peaks, um, like ahh, that's when new words come up to describe the new capabilities.
 Like right now, I'm on the cusp of establishing a new SQ peak.
 All the indicators are showing, go for throttle up…
  
 Yeeeehaaaaaawwwwww…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Recently "trending" in RCA connectors is a *reduction* of contact patch size, going away from a full "collar" to a single small contact point. See Nordost, Eichmann, and others.
> 
> Go figure.


 
 I've been thinking about why they would do this and the reason that I can see for it is to maximize via clamping force and 'tight' metal to metal contact patch, a more robust connection, instead of using that same amount of force spread over a larger area.
  
 This would insure a more 'positive' and controlled contact patch with very little chance of any contaminants 'getting in the way', so to speak.
  
 So over the long haul, where folks don't maintain their connections ( ie. cleaning and 'resetting' the metal to metal contact patches) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this 'new' approach may work 'better' for them in the long run.
  
 Still it does work best only when the male rca connector stays fully inserted, with no droop.
  
 And speaking of cleaning and maintaining the contact patches for xlr connectors… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think I may have found a 'proper' set of cleaning brushes for 3 and 4 pin xlr female connectors.
 The male pins are easy to deal with but their female counterpart, not so much.
 I should be getting these small brushes in the next few days to see how well they will work.
  
 JJ


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## Middy

I got some mid size interdental wire brushes. They became a little crushed so maybe too big. Not sure if the go deep enough. 
Let us know what you are using.. and overall results.


Good luck
Dave


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## johnjen

So this is the brush set I just received.
  
 The smallest is 1/16" and the largest is 3/16"
  
 The smallest (1/16") works very well on 4 pin XLR and the next 2 sizes larger work on 3 pin XLR's
  

  
 Also the 2 smaller brushes down from the biggest, work on the female rca center pin connection.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Are they fibre/plastic or metal brushes JJ?


----------



## johnjen

The shafts are stainless steel with nylon bristles
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

For those who have experienced the situation where the focus of the SQ 'snaps' into place, you will be able to relate with what I am posting.
  
*I HEARD* the Beattles White album, for the first time, ever.
 Yes I was around when it was first released and have listened to it countless numbers of time prior to today.
  
 When my system 'stabilizes' while reaching a 'peak' in the SQ, what I usually experience is hearing my music, as if anew.
  
 And after a time, the rate of improvement in reaching new 'peaks' of SQ, begins to slow down, but doesn't stop.
 It continues to increase and in new ways, as more and more of the system gets out of it's own way.
  
 And I ALWAYS get enchanted when hearing My MUSIC as if for the first time, again.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

My latest SQ observations…
 Star Trek had its holodeck, where ‘solid’ objects were manifested into physicality.
 Right now my *Holo* has an added ‘edge’ or a sharp boundary to each ‘voice’.
 This manifests as a more refined outline or definition of each acoustical object within the soundstage.
  
 I attribute this to the coming into focus of the last 2+ tweaks that are now stabilizing.
 The Akiko sticks/canisters have added greater levels of inner and micro-details.
 I call this change *Tuubz* where the SQ has the added harmonic ‘richness’ that tube circuits are famous for.
  
 And the 2nd Wyrd has further refined the dimensionality of the soundstage.
 This is related to *C3* (cohesive, coherent, coupled) where each ‘voice’ is more focused and its relationship to the music is more ‘integrated’ into the whole experience. 
 Somewhat related to PRaT (Pace Rhythm, and Timing) where the music is more involving and sucks you into it with *SuperGlue* like consequences as a result.
  
 In addition I further modified the Wyrds and added a bypass cap to the Wyrds 2 main power supply filter caps.
 Yes this does effectively void the warranty, so if one (or both) should die due to component failure I can’t/won’t claim it’s a warranty issue, especially now that I have announced to the headphone world that I did in fact mod the Wyrd (with pictures etc.).
 However the net effect of performing this tweak is hard to attribute to specific auditory changes, but in every other case adding a bypass cap has always improved the SQ.
 And granted this is the first time I have used this trick to a digital component, as all of my previous uses of this tweak were on analog gear (amps, preamps, speakers, etc.).
 But I know it can’t hurt either, and since the results of this mod improve the ability of the big electrolytic caps to ‘respond’ more quickly, I can see where digital circuits would also benefit from a power supply that can ‘respond’ more quickly as well.
  
  

  
  
 But this new and improved *Holo* is providing a much more ‘solid’ and precise auditory image of the entire sound-stage, as well as for each ‘voice’, and also as they interact with each other and the acoustic space they occupy.
 I’d say that these 2+ tweaks are mutually compatible and reinforce each other quite nicely.
 And perhaps this is but an itty bitty baby step towards that Star Trek holodeck solidity.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

So my latest fussings deal with my near-field speakers, the $40/pr. Daytons which I have tweaked and tweaked some more.
 And now tweaked again.
 This time I went hardcore and hardwired some ANTICables directly into the boxes, bypassing the wimpy speaker terminals (choke points) on the back.
  
 These ANTICables cost 2-3 times the price of the speakers ($125) for a 4' length of bi-wired solid 12-AWG (effectively 9-AWG) straight from the amp into the boxes.
 This is MASSIVE overkill, sort like The Rok is for these speakers.
  

  
 And thus far we both have heard changes already.
 Pam (who listens WAY off axis) notices greater clarity of instruments and can understand the lyrics mo-bettah.
 And I am hearing new nuances to all the 'voices', and greater coupling, as in the sound carries better throughout the whole house at lower volume.
 But they (ANTICables) recommends ≈100hrs of break-in, which held true for my previous experience with their cables as well, so I need to wait for a more complete evaluation.
  
 For those not familiar with ANTICables, for their speaker cables they use a single strand high quality copper with a very thin dielectric coating (no plastic or rubber jackets), and in my case (bi-wired) there are 2 strands for each polarity.
 These strands are fairly stiff, as you might imagine since they are 12-AWG each and so they tend to 'stay put' where they are placed.
  
 I was using 14-AWG Coleman Cable zip type speaker cable, which I found at my local hardware store, which was WAY better than the 22-AWG cable supplied with the speakers.
 But this cable had started to corrode inside the jacket, so it was time to replace it.
  

  
  
 ANTICables are fairly inexpensive (by comparison) and deliver very nice SQ, especially for the price.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

I always liked the electrical guys joking about putting a coat hanger in in stead of a fancy cable....
Now you have modded the Wyrds have you considered bolting them together and hard wiring them? At least it saves a cable..

Just a question if you know, John Swensons new super capacitor PS, is it independent...
IE that drives the device/Dac/regen device or does it need a feeder supply
A separate LPS...

I know chord and Vini Rossi use them..

With global warming... clean power seems the way to go...8^) Explanation to wife sorted...


----------



## gefski

JJ, I've been fiddling with the Speltz cables also. Liking the double run (10') in my speaker rig (once I got them bent into the needed turns & curves). Have also been running in a half meter pair of their interconnects in the head-fi rig. Same approach -- quality copper, minimal dielectric, Eichmann plugs (with the small single point ground).


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> I always liked the electrical guys joking about putting a coat hanger in in stead of a fancy cable....
> Now you have modded the Wyrds have you considered bolting them together and hard wiring them? At least it saves a cable..
> 
> Just a question if you know, John Swensons new super capacitor PS, is it independent...
> ...


 
 I doubt I'd go to the trouble of 'joining' the 2 Wyrds together, mostly because I can't see where there would be much, if any, advantage to doing so.
 Of course I could be entirely wrong, but I already have WAY to many projects lined up, just waiting…
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 When I first  looked into the super caps they struck me as a novel idea with some interesting applications etc.
 But they still need to be charged back up which opens the very same door for noise that 'regular' caps/batteries have.
  
 For certain uses like automotive and industrial applications I can see them as very much a step up, but in audio their benefits (other than bragging rights etc.) are curtailed a fair amount, not to mention their price being still quite high.
  
 They are quite nifty in terms of the technology involved, but currently they seem to me to be a 'stopgap' solution searching for a problem to solve.
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

gefski said:


> JJ, I've been fiddling with the Speltz cables also. Liking the double run (10') in my speaker rig (once I got them bent into the needed turns & curves). Have also been running in a half meter pair of their interconnects in the head-fi rig. Same approach -- quality copper, minimal dielectric, Eichmann plugs (with the small single point ground).


 
 I had a set of their balanced IC's and after I cryo'd and cooked them they were VERY nice.
 I sold them because I found 'Better' IC's but they indeed did cost Way more.
  
 JJ


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## Yaruoau

Sorry, if its wrong thread. But what would be a good idea for sport-like headphones cup?


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## Middy

Glue two headphones to a bowl on a piece of wood...Oh I see.. not sure. You would need a 360 band all the way around your head. A velcro strip would work...


----------



## Yaruoau

They already are sport, with headband, just removed default caps 
 Btw how can i add picture? It seems im not allowed to add it to the post :c


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## johnjen

You need a higher post count in order to post pictures.
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 19             Auditory Memory*

*Auditory Memory*
 The notion that we all have no real auditory memory, of any long term duration, strikes me as incorrect and presumptive.
 I simply don’t agree with that opinion, at least not as most understand the terms used.
 In my experience I have memorized a bunch of music, to the point that I will sing/talk along with the lyrics of the vocalist, with full intonation and inflection.
 Frank Zappa is a favorite of mine for this, as is The Firesign Theater…
  
 This is memorization pure and simple, and it applies to more than just lyrics.
 I use this ‘tool’ to help determine if changes to the system alter the music as I have known it previously, to the point that when whole other ‘voices’ are heard, where before they were hidden or masked, I can determine if my recent changes are ‘Better’, or not.
 This is only possible if I had a memory of how it used to sound.
 Auditory memory does exist and from what I have come to know is not simply a function of auditory recognition, there is more to it than that.
  
 It seems to involve our memory of the meaning and the intent of the words that are sung and of all of the different voices, (background vocals, duets, choruses etc.) some of which will ‘speak to us’.
 It also seems to involve our emotional memory, as in how the music affects our mood, our degree of focus and attention to the interplay of the different ‘voices’ with, and off, of each other.
 And it seems that our emotional memory can be quite strong and changeable to varying degrees.
  
 We each have certain music that excites us, that we feel drawn to and derive a great deal of emotional attachment to.
 We all listen for different reasons and aspects in the music, which in part also helps to determine what music we select to listen to.
 We all are unique in that regard.
  
 IOW we all are drawn to music for greatly different reasons, and derive greatly different types of enjoyment from what we are motivated to listen to.
 But thru it all is the joy, pleasure, fun, the power that music provides for us.
  
 So to, to insist that All of us don’t have acoustic memory, flies in the face of our vast diversity.
  
 A case in point is a symphony that Gustavo Dudamel conducted, on a you-tub video, where a musician messed up and misplayed a portion of the work being performed.
 Gustavo’s head immediately snapped around and focused upon that musician…
 He knew, instantly, that the musician had messed up, because he had memorized just exactly what was supposed to have happened.
  
 And while many indeed may not have much if any acoustic memory, especially under ‘controlled’ (contrived) conditions, this is in contrast to how we actually listen to music, which involves much more than simply our analytic abilities, and where our acoustic memory does come into play.
  
 Such that this commonly held belief, in my view, does us all a great disservice.
 So by trying to define our hearing ability by what it can’t do, (another logical fallacy) this belief has become a tenet, a fait acompli, a truism which is accepted as fact, when it simply isn’t so,
 at least not for everyone!
  
 And to be sure, as long as this belief is held as true for oneself, it will remain true for you and those who believe as you do.
 A self fulfilling prophesy type of situation.
  
 IOW what is stated as fact most definitely applies to all who believe it.
 But those beliefs don’t necessarily apply to everyone, and no matter how much ‘social pressure’ (derision nor how many times we are told we are wrong), it simply won’t stick.
  
 Why?
 Because experience will ALWAYS trump opinion.
 Every,
 Time.
  
 When I have experienced something that others have defined as ‘impossible’ or an illusion or wishful thinking, all of this ‘expert’ opinion matters not.
  
 Why?
 Because if the experience has been repeated, or better yet enhanced with multiple experiences, that is all that matters as far as ones own opinion on the topic.
 It simply nullifies those who haven’t nor are they likely to ever hear what is ‘impossible’.
  
 Why?
 Because they believe it to be impossible, and thus, for them, it is impossible.
  
 However some simply won’t take no for an answer.
 As in, no, I don’t believe you, my experience trumps your opinion.
  
 Lastly, Mike Moffet in one of his posts stated that…
 “This taught me that the human ear is an integral, NOT differential device.”
 from here, http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7725#post_11921090
  
 I won’t presume to explain what he precisely means by this, but I can tell you what I understand it to mean…
  
 The difference between integral and differential is not just what ‘data’ we use for analysis, but how it is processed which helps form our impressions of what we hear.
 And the duration of this processing is a key factor in all of this as well.
  
 In a differential mode of analytic perception (where DBT mostly operates from) it is the difference between 2 sets of data, one being memory based and the other music that is being heard in realtime, as in, in only the ongoing NOW moment.
  
 In an integral mode of perceiving music, it is the ongoing sum total of the auditory perception as it is experienced in realtime, and this cumulative perception, rather than a ‘short term’ or difference decision, is of key significance.
  
 Why?
 Because music is an ongoing experience that builds upon itself and accumulates and establishes multiple patterns, which are continually reinforced and refined.
 It is a Dynamic experience that can only occur in our ongoing NOW moment.
  
 Whereas in a differential mode there is very little accumulation of this experience except for the results of the analytic differentiation process itself.
 It is a ‘snapshot’ of the impressions we derive from focusing our attention upon the ‘task at hand’ which is a separate and distinctly different process than listening to music.
 IOW what is carried forward is not the experience of music, but a mentally produced derivative of our analytic processing.
  
 While one is the result of our analytic processing of our perceptual abilities in a short time frame, the other is akin to how we listen to music.
  
 This means one is a much more realistic reflection into how we actually listen to music which can reveal useful results that corresponds much more closely to listening, while the other is a contrived and isolated test of questionable usefulness.
 At least as it might be applied to us as we actually do listen to music as the desired intent of our endeavors.
  
 JJ :thumb

*End Part 19              *
  
*Next up         Choke Points revisited*


----------



## landroni

Very thought provoking... Thanks, JJ.
  
 Quote:


johnjen said:


> *Auditory Memory*
> The notion that we all have no real auditory memory, of any long term duration, strikes me as incorrect and presumptive.
> I simply don’t agree with that opinion, at least not as most understand the terms used.


 

 My intuitions, precisely.
  
 I never quite understood how "short-term auditory memory" was actually supposed to work... Let's say I listen to a "do" by Luciano Pavarotti and then to a "do" by Britney Spears. In 5 min, will I not be able to tell one from the other? Or in 24h? Or in 1 year? Or will I have a hard time recognizing Pavarotti's "do" ever again?
  
 The "no long-term auditory memory" is a very weak assumption, and either way you look at it any scientific research is only as strong as its weakest assumption. Most people will generally be capable of detecting subtle variations in a friend's voice, indicative say of distress or of joyful palpitation. This can ONLY be possible if people _have_ long-term memory of what the friend's voice "normally" sounds like...
  


> In an integral mode of perceiving music, it is the ongoing sum total of the auditory perception as it is experienced in realtime, and this cumulative perception, rather than a ‘short term’ or difference decision, is of key significance.


 
  
 I can attest of this effect from personal experience, from when I was completely oblivious of the existence of high-end audio, "objectivists" or "subjectivists", and was listening blissfully to 128 kbps MP3's on run of the mill laptop, and had absolutely no dog in this fight.
  
 A long time ago I realized that when listening to a new album, generally on the first time I had no opinion of it. Sometimes even the second time wasn't sufficient, and only on the third time I was ready to pronounce myself whether it was something I enjoyed, appreciated or absolutely hated. This can only be explained if my brain needs several "passes" to analyse all relevant aspects the incoming stream of auditory information, in an "integrative" fashion, and it is the cumulative aspect of the all the analyses and patterns spotted that generates this "perception", positive or negative.
  
 If the "long-term listening" factor is indeed integral to the humans' auditory perceptions and the pattern recognition performed by the brain, then this missing factor traditionally not controlled for could potentially invalidate decades of instantaneous DBT performed in scientific as well as sciencey circles...


----------



## landroni

I've posted this here in the past, but this is all the more relevant to the short-term vs long-term auditory memory discussion, and the integrative vs differential aspects of the human hearing. Here's another voice from the industry, this time on the mastering side, Robert Ludwig:
 http://tapeop.com/interviews/105/bob-ludwig/

 "[Q:] You once said that today's converters, with great clocking, cannot be differentiated from the analog source by anyone you've tested.
_[A:] I'm not saying that no one can ever hear the difference, I'm merely saying when someone comes into the studio for a quick visit and I play the source vs. high resolution digital, a 96 kHz, 192 kHz, or DSD copy, no one can immediately pick out the difference. Don't forget, these are all awesome converters. The quality of the engineering of the analog-to-digital converter and DAC is much, much more important to the musicality of the sound than the sampling rate could ever be. Our $8,000 converters at 16-bit/44.1 kHz sound way, way better than a 192 kHz playback from a $5 chip on a DVD-Audio player. I think the higher resolution sounds reveal themselves not in A/B testing, but in long periods of time. Play an entire album in a relaxed atmosphere at 96 kHz/24-bit, then, at the end, listen to it at 44.1 kHz/16-bit, and you'll get it right away. A/B testing, while the only scientific method we have, does not reveal too much with short-term back-and-forth comparisons due to the anxiety the brain is under doing such a test. The brain becomes very left-brain-technical, rather than right-brain creative and musical._"


----------



## gefski

I've posted around on this subject also.
  
 Quickie A-B comparisons are terrific to disclose *frequency response* aberrations; bass-treble, bright-dull, etc. Way over-used in Head-Fi land, however. Leads to real short sighted conclusions like "...this $200 converter performs as well as that $2000 one...". (It probably does in f/r; both are flat, f/r wise)
  
 But spend a couple evenings with them and the musical experience is  hugely different. Timbre & texture, air & space, attack & damping, *real* wood blocks & drum skins. 
  
 When I can't stop listening to whole albums, the good stuff is working.
  
 IMO
 YMMV


----------



## johnjen

Decades back when the Bose 901's first appeared on the hifi scene, they were the darling of the latest and greatest of the then available stand alone speakers (AR-3a's, Klipschorn's, Cornwall's and a scant few others).
  
 But then they started to get traded in all to quickly, as in after just a few months of use.
 The reason?
 They sounded too good… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Actually I think what was going on was they were very impressive and sounded really good at the the hifi shop, but living with them was a different proposition altogether.
 IOW they didn't sound too good, they sounded to good to be true and they were, especially if you understood their design criteria.
  
 IOW it's only after you live with and become much more fully aware and familiar with the entire system as it performs with the specific gear on hand, that truly matters.
  
 Short term tests which can reveal some 'obvious' aspects in the sonic presentation, can also trick us into coming to erroneous conclusions about the overall SQ, which will reveal itself as we gain further experience and hear a greater range along with different types of music.
  

 It has been an observation of mine, for many decades now, that until there is a (or series of) tests that can mimic music AND provide a high degree of correlation with what our perceptions are, to the numbers these tests generate, we (as in us audiophools) will continue to rely upon the most sophisticated auditory tools available to us, namely our hearing.
  
 For those that need measurements to validate their sense of what they are able to hear, then by all means do so, but please try not to insist that we need to adopt your opinions as our own, upon those of us who have moved beyond that series of limitations.
 It will tend to lessen the animosity between both 'sides' of the divide that need not separate us in the first place.
 I know from 1st hand experience that I tend to dismiss anyone who tries to tell me what my experiences are, despite the fact that they themselves simply haven't experienced what I have.
 And I assume most would react in a similar way…
 Even those who's opinion are held as being sacrosanct.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

I'm currently passing thru the *SuperGlue* stage of auditory presentation.
 It will be another 2 days ± till I reach the peak.
 That is if this pattern holds up, which thus far it has followed, quite closely, several previous similar patterns.
  
 This is gunna be a real treat…
 And my greatest temptation is to just…
  
 LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE and NOT SCREW WITH IT.
  
 Except the hook is set so deep that I have a whole list of projects, just waiting to be tested…
  
 Sigh, 
 I really need to just listen and enjoy the net effect that all of my cumulative tweaks are delivering to me…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Like I noted above,
 "This is gunna be a real treat…"
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> For those that need measurements to validate their sense of what they are able to hear, then by all means do so, but please try not to insist that we need to adopt your opinions as our own, upon those of us who have moved beyond that series of limitations.


 

 Curiously Mike Moffat has made much the same argument in the past:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/784471/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter/480#post_12407199


baldr said:


> Now, that is alright and everyone has the right of self-expression; we can cordially agree to disagree. My rub is with the prevalent and sanctimonious attitudes that since all amps/DACs must be of equivalent worth because they sound the same, it is not just WRONG but foolish for anyone to express any sonic preference for any gear, period.


 

  
 That whole post is very much related to your previous chapter...


----------



## johnjen

Yes I do try to make the sequence of the info contained in the chapters dovetail from one to the next.
 Sometimes I'm more successful than others.
  
 And I did go into the sound science forum and left with this bad taste in my mouth.
 They really don't do themselves any favors in that forum as far as I can tell.
  
 And I'd love to be able to learn something of value, but the whole experience was so off putting I have no desire to return and wade thru the very poor signal to noise ratio found there.
 I figure it might have something to do with a lack of socialization skills, or perhaps a lack of being able to empathize with another (different) perspective and not resort to being rude and/or insulting, sometimes in the extreme.
 And they wonder why they have such a bad reputation, go figure.
  
 And this tendency seems to have developed to the degree that their ability to share their wisdom has diminished to the point that they are more or less exclusively preaching to the choir.  This is a sure sign of a downward spiral in terms of being able to effectively share their perspective and for others to learn something of lasting value.
 I mean I know I'm not alone in not wanting to EVER return to that forum, and I would like to be able to tap into some of that expertise, but not with the degree of animosity that is all to prevalent.
 Life is to short…
  
 But perhaps that isn't their desire, and they just need to be 'right', regardless.
  
 I have learned that THE most effective and efficient way of learning, is to be wrong and then learn from that experience.
 But it certainly seems most are scared witless, of being wrong.
  
 More's the pity…
  
 This entire scenario reminds me of the saying we used to help those who find themselves in a similar situation,
 "When you find yourself in a hole, the first order of business is to stop digging". 
 That is unless you don't mind digging so deep you drop out of sight…
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

Yes, decidedly lacking social skills, among other things... _Even if you're right_, you cannot behave so obnoxiously in imposing your perspective upon others. Like when some resident sceptic ("objectivist" really is a misnomer) debarks and starts a crusade to _"cure ignorance"_ among the hapless "subjectivist" hoi polloi...

  
  
 Even when stating something factual in the SS section (a curiously fitting moniker for those with a sense of history), say describing a _potential_ mechanism that _might_ have an effect on sonic performance, before you finish the sentence the moderator will solemnly declare that they "[don't] subscribe to [your] paranoia" (aren't moderators supposed to moderate instead of attacking bystanders?) and that we should "realize when we're just being silly". And before you get a chance to understand What?! is going on, someone will descend upon you with righteous fervour and accuse you of "being mind bogglingly silly!". And when you genuinely attempt to discuss scientific methodology with them, as for instance what factors _should_ be controlled for in DBT for audio gear, then the moderators themselves will quickly enough indulge in throwing at you that "you have your own agenda" along with accusations of "stawmen arguments" and patronizing statements along the lines of "why aren't we trying a bit too hard to argue that there are differences because we want there to be differences?", before informing you of how grateful we should be that they magnanimously aren't "deleting posts from trolls" who are unhappy with the SS treatment...
  
 This is but a brief and incomplete history of my interactions with SS'ers, and I don't think I've been as much and as aggressively insulted, belittled and otherwise slighted elsewhere, like, ever.  Given the prevailing passive-aggressive behaviors in these corners (even apparently when someone simply presents some factual elements), it's no wonder that competent and open-minded engineers eschew these corners with incredible enthusiasm... I too know engineers around head-fi who won't step away from their measurements devices, and generally do hear a difference, but won't touch the SS section under no circumstances...
  
 One thing that I cannot wrap my head around is WHY this extreme and forceful obsession with "scientific evidence, damn it!" in high-end audio? This is a *hobby*. I mean, hobbies are supposed to be fun and happy places where people enjoy what they're doing. And there are MANY hobbies out there where injecting science into them would be at best a futile endeavour. So in _poetry reading_, do we have a section of the audience strenuously defending that there is no scientific proof that you can perceive this or that emotion from that poem, because DBT shows a "no diff" or because commonly-accepted measurements don't show anything? Or in _gardening_, are people doubting that a flower can make you smile while another gives you a headache, because there is no scientific evidence for that effect? Or in _pets_? Or when eating _ice-cream_, do said sceptics doubt their perceptions of a difference between two flavors until they're presented with formal proof from a carefully set up DBT that controls for all factors, including the level-matched temperature of the said ice-creams, on an infinite sample size, published in Nature; and will they just assume that all ice-creams taste the same until scientific evidence emerges? And when _cooking_, say if you perceive that the food isn't salty enough, do you just trust your perceptions and add some more salt, or do you feel the need for further validation from instrumentation before taking further action? And have sceptics like ever gone about DBT'ing ski gear, tennis rackets, foot balls, golf balls, diving gear, TV sets, digital cameras, cars, planes, parachutes, keyboards, games, game consoles, programming languages? Surely there are differences between programming languages, but have there ever been formal DBT that show that programmers can perceive any differences between them? Or is it simply psycho-programming? Like I suppose there must be psycho-gustative or psycho-visual factors? And where does this all stop? Should we perhaps introduce DBT or other scientific methods in _stamp collecting_? Is there really any evidence out there, and I mean published peer-reviewed scientific evidence, that two different stamps will generate different perceptions in a philatelist? Or is it all philatephoolery?
  
 Long story short, in my humble opinion some very very strange obsessions seem to be affect the sceptics' audience in high-end audio, and I can't find a single good reason for it to be there so markedly...


----------



## johnjen

When I run into this sort of reactive behavior I have found that it usually has a foundation in a sense of personal vulnerability WRT not wanting to appear as being weak or being wrong.
 IOW it's a lack of confidence in oneself with some combination of tying ones identity with the object or subject of veneration.
  
 Put another way it demonstrates a lack of maturity and allowance for other opinions and experiences.
 And like I stated they are really only preaching to the choir of their choosing, which is a sure sign of dissolution in the long run.
 It's just a matter of time.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Progress report on the blossoming of my system.
  
 The *tLFF* has just today markedly improved, to the point that I can now crank up the MOAR knob to between 2- 3:00, again.
 This improvement in SQ can also be described as coming into finer and finer focus as the acoustic energy is more closely synch'd to itself, (instead of being smeared) in both time and amplitude.
 Think of those 2 patterns making that moiré pattern, as they get close to matching back up.
  
 Right now I'm listening to Led Zeppelin at seemingly elevated SPL's.
 Except it isn't really that much 'louder'.
  
 I recently noticed this on the speakers after installing the new ANTICables.
 It seemed as though the volume difference, between HP's and speakers, reversed.
 IOW where the speakers were louder (perceived volume) than the 800's, now as the new speaker wires are settling in, the speakers are now 'softer' than the 800's.
 I noticed this same 'effect' when the *tLFF* took a major step up in SQ on just the 800's.
  
 And speaking of speakers…
 They are coupling better and better as my expert off axis SQ monitor reports additional nuances and intonations.
 She can easily hear additional 'voices' in orchestral works and understand the lyrics from songs all the more easily as well.
  
 And all of this should continue to improve as the overall system further stabilizes with these new(er) degrees of SQ.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I was talking to Gil and he figures we here in Seattle are a think tank for headphones.
  
 A Can Tank…
  
 So does that make us Can Tank R us?
 Badda Boom tsisssss… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 And the latest buzz, that I'm getting curious about are ethernet to digital audio network converter devices.
 It replaces usb completely and some are reporting HUGE SQ gains as a result.
 Perhaps they will share their thoughts here for others to learn about.  (hint, hint, muziqboy, Soundsgood2me…)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway right now the gear is expensive and pro level audio stuff, meaning not really aimed at hi-fi or tweako audio.
 I figure this will change and fairly quickly.
  
 Early reports are most encouraging…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

We need that minimeet going so you guys can experience it. Pricing wise, it can equal out if you've got quite a bit invested into usb. $300 cable, $300-500 transport, $300 power supplies (plural). The Rednet 3 itself is 1k and that's all you need, unless you want the full boat and daisy chain a mutec reclock for $700.

I'm really impressed by the shenxing f1 transport and supposedly the Rednet 3 itself is a level or two above it. I'm excited.. The Rednets are coming!

Also ping rb2013 who's secretly a Seattlelite as well and does quite a bit of testing on these units.


----------



## johnjen

Do you have a link to the shenxing f1 transport?
 I did a search but it came back empty
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

http://m.shenzhenaudio.com/f-1-xmos-usb-digital-interface-board-xu208-chip-high-end-u8-upgraded-version.html

I got the name all jumbled up, brand is Singxer not Shenxing - the seller is Shenzen Audio but there's another gent on eBay selling them as well. I think there may be a slight backorder on them atm but specs can be read on them there.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
  
 Thanks!
  
 So it’s a usb to spdif converter board?
 Hmm…
 Isn't this the board those guys in the xmos usb thread are figuring a way to 'hack' it?
  
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> snip
> Also ping @rb2013 who's secretly a Seattlelite as well and does quite a bit of testing on these units.


 
 Does anyone within the reach of this post know him?
 Or should I just reach out?
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Not sure on the hacking part but it seems a linear power to supply the 5v is the thing to do - although it can utilize 5v from the host usb (what I'm doing but using an ifi purifier). I want to say it's got isolation properties as well, along with a host of goodies like excellent clocks and the latest faster xmos chip. Before the Rednet discovery this unit set the bar (when coupled with a power unit).


----------



## Muziqboy

Yes JJ!
  
 This Audio-Over-IP is really an eye & ears opener. Been running it in my rig for almost 10 days now and it has been a big revelation.
 The SQ is a big leap up when this is incorporated in one's set-up.
  
 USB is a very noisy transmission line only meant for peripherals and not audio. There is always a new USB cleaner gizmo popping up and what they do is just try to reduce the noise.
 Take the iFi micro iUSB for example (I was using this before in my rig), it has a measured .1uV of noise that it supplies to the USB to SPDIF or AES converters and that really is ultra low noise compared to the other USB cleaners out there and it does do a very good job of cleaning the USB line noise BUT it does not totally eliminate the noise. And any noise no matter how miniscule will veil the details of the music. We keep on piling USB cleaners, WYRDS, iFi stuff, Jitterbugs, Intonas, Regens, also expensive USB cables and USB-toSPDIF converters and before we know it, we have a mile-long USB chain.
  
 Now the beauty of the RedNet 3 or D16 is it's 1 box solution. PC > Cat5 or 6 cable > RedNet > DAC. And the benefits are galvanic isolation which is inherent in Ethernet so there is ZERO noise riding in the line. Plus the added feature of Error Detection & Correction (CRC-32 Checksum). USB does not even have any error correction.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I've met him to pass some gear along and had a convo for a bit but that's about it. He's a cool person and really knowledgeable, from what I gather he's more a speaker guy.


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


 
  
 This was the USB to SPDIF converter that I was previously using in my rig during the Bottlehead and Portland meet and learned about it's existence reading that XMOS thread. Been following that thread ever since the day he created it.


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Not sure on the hacking part but it seems a linear power to supply the 5v is the thing to do - although it can utilize 5v from the host usb (what I'm doing but using an ifi purifier). I want to say it's got isolation properties as well, along with a host of goodies like excellent clocks and the latest faster xmos chip. Before the Rednet discovery this unit set the bar (when coupled with a power unit).


 
 Yeah hacking may not be the 'best' word but it seemed like they were figuring where the best location to supply power for the board and a way of accessing a few other functions etc.
  
 Anyway $180 isn't to bad (well + ≈$150 for the PS)
  
 Still, ethernet could be 'Better', but ya know ethernet is by no means the 'Best' hardware/software combination for communicating and transferring data.
 But it is what we've got.
  
 And I just tried to use the Dante Virtual soundcard to see if it would talk to my ethernet card in my PWD and it doesn't seem to wanna work, so I'll try calling Audinate down in Portland…
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

The DVS or Dante Virtual Soundcard only communicates with Dante equipped devices. It is a proprietary system.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> This was the USB to SPDIF converter that I was previously using in my rig during the Bottlehead and Portland meet and learned about it's existence reading that XMOS thread. Been following that thread ever since the day he created it.


 
 Yeah they certainly seem to be really diving into the deep end on this usb based ddc.
  
 But that this ethernet signal path eclipses it, is telling on the one hand, and that it seems as though multiple devices make a difference, no matter what transfer methodology (usb, ethernet, and even spdif?) is being used is also telling as well.
  
 With the exception of perhaps AES/EBU, which was designed to handle digital signals in 'rough' conditions (ie noisy and non-ideal environments) I can see where the marriage of these 2 or 3 (ether => aes/spdif) could, if not 'fix' these sources of noise contamination, they (it would seem) are able to take this situation to a whole new level of performance.
  
 Ah yes, once again we are staring at the Bleeding Edge… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> The DVS or Dante Virtual Soundcard only communicates with Dante equipped devices. It is a proprietary system.


 
 Well that explains that and it saves me a phone call as well… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks    JJ


----------



## Torq

I've been using Ethernet based streamers/interfaces for a while now (I got my first HiFi-centric one in 2008, a prior model Linn Akurate DS), and they definitely have an advantage over direct computer connections.
  
 The Linn units are rather expensive (those with digital ouputs start at $3,000 and get up to the $10,000 range very quickly), especially if you only use them as an Ethernet interface.  They're also somewhat limited in how you can feed them audio (typically either a direct TIDAL link or via a DLNA/UPnP/OpenHome server).
  
 I really wanted something with more sourcing-flexibility, ideally that can act as a Roon endpoint, though there would definitely be value in having something that could be driven as a virtual sound card so that ANY player software could be used.  
  
 Then I started looking at other streaming options (Bryston, Sonore, Auralic and so on).  The Auralic Aries, so far, results in the best sound (even compared to the bigger Linn units) ... and I found that the best way to employ it, in my rig, is to drive it via WiFi and feed my Yggdrasil via AES/EBU XLR (so the only cables involved are from it's very-low-noise linear PSU and the digital cable to the DAC).
  
 The Sonore SonicOrbiterSE also works extremely well and is $300 all-in ($350 if you want an ultra low-noise linear PSU).  I don't care for the USB output from this device (or, so far, ANY USB output on any device), but via optical it works a treat.
  
 The Bryston didn't match the Auralic on quality and is double the price for reasons I can't fathom beyond the badge.
  
 I have a Sonore MicroRendu on order to try as a "this is the last time I'm bothering with USB" unit and to compare with the SonicOrbiterSE, but honestly I'm inclined to stick with something that has either an AES or an optical output.
  
 USB has been a bust for me ... no matter what combination of devices and cables I've tried, which now includes the Jitterbug, Wyrd, Regen, Recovery and a Mutec MC3+ (oh, and an Intona Isolator and an iFI Purifier), none of the USB-based interfaces have sounded as good as a simple $100 glass optical cable off a decent TOSLINK source in my rigs (headphone and speakers) and to my ears.  And the Aries/AES connection even manages to better that.
  
 ...
  
 On the RedNet devices, those would be really nice (I've used similar things in my music production) but appear to have a limit of 96 KHz unless used with their dedicated PCIe Ethernet card (a non-starter as a current Mac Pro user).  While most of my music is standard Redbook stuff, I wouldn't want to lose the high-resolution capability that I've built the rest of the system around, so I'm going to have to check into that in more detail when I get back from my trip (i.e. order one and try it out).


----------



## Muziqboy

The RedNets are capable upto 192khz but if you are also looking for DSD support, this does not do it.
 I only mostly have 16/44.1 wav and only a few 24/192 wav in my music library and the RedNEt 3 can handle 192khz no problem.
 You just have to set it up in the Dante control interface. I'm also not using their dedicated PCI-e card (that's like $1000). Just use the Dante Virtual Soundcard and any player that supports asio should work. I am using JRiver and it works without any issues. Full functionality of JRiver is intact.


----------



## Torq

muziqboy said:


> The RedNets are capable upto 192khz but if you are also looking for DSD support, this does not do it.
> I only mostly have 16/44.1 wav and only a few 24/192 wav in my music library and the RedNEt 3 can handle 192khz no problem.
> You just have to set it up in the Dante control interface. I'm also not using their dedicated PCI-e card (that's like $1000). Just use the Dante Virtual Soundcard and any player that supports asio should work. I am using JRiver and it works without any issues. Full functionality of JRiver is intact.


 
  
 That's good to know!
  
 It must be some limit with multiple channels being driven then, since it's in the specs somewhere (can't find where I saw it now).
  
 Not worried about DSD at this point - or probably ever.  It's yet to show any truly tangible benefit in my testing over PCM even against just basic Redbook stuff.
  
 Looks like Audinate has proper OS X support, so that's all good.  Guess I'll order one up once I get back from my trip and see how it compares with the Auralic and Linn interfaces.  What will be nice, regardless, is that since it'll take the output of any player on OS X, it'll work fine off my Music Server and Roon!


----------



## johnjen

johnjen said:


> Does anyone within the reach of this post know him?
> Or should I just reach out?
> 
> JJ


 
 No one is willing to claim they know rb2013?
  
 Alrighty then… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I have not met him personally but have communicated with him thru PM. In particular, after I posted my findings with the RedNet 3 on his thread.

I believe Andrew had a face to face with him.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I don't think anyone knows him on a personal level here but he's a cool cat wear a suit business type (who really likes audio and gear that goes with it). I'll be meeting him tomorrow again to buy speakers


soundsgoodtome said:


> I've met him to pass some gear along and had a convo for a bit but that's about it. He's a cool person and really knowledgeable, from what I gather he's more a speaker guy.


 
  
  

 Also this:


soundsgoodtome said:


> Definitely my fault for not reading the dimensions but at 17x10x4", I was definitely not expecting a receiver-sized unit. Jeezus I need to make some room!


----------



## johnjen

Lots/most 'pro gear' is designed for rack mount which is 19" wide and multiples/whole fractions of 7" tall.
  
 So since you'll be seeing him in person do you want to extend the invitation to our secret meet?
 We can pass on the particulars once they are figured out.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I was expecting a medium sized box and then this giant monster box came in. I'm having issues installing it atm but will try some things later. 

Will do that tomorrow on extending the invite.


----------



## johnjen

:thumb
 :thumb
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Finally got it working thanks to @Muziqboy's patience and helping me set it up and troubleshoot. I'll just say this for initial impression, whoever implemented the usb transport/connection for audio set the audio world back by however long it's been since they were implemented. (Read:should be shot).

 The SQ jump is not subtle, even with just active speakers at the moment (Fostex PM0.4d)  I want to say the difference between the Rednet 3 and the stock USB on this Matrix mini-i (super mid-fi dac) is the same proportions as upgrading from a Schiit Bifrost MB to a Yggy. Which begs the question, what does this sound like with a Yggy or similar quality DAC and say an HD800? The Digital audio world is in for a treat guys, can't wait for you guys to hear this stuff.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






soundsgoodtome said:


> Definitely my fault for not reading the dimensions but at 17x10x4", I was definitely not expecting a receiver-sized unit. Jeezus I need to make some room!


 
  


rb2013 said:


> Yes it's a Big, Beautiful Red Box of musical joy.
> 
> It kinda reminds me of a Ferrari


----------



## johnjen

So you're using just the RN3 box and no other added converters?
 And are you using the SPDIF connection?
  
 This has mind blowing written all over it.
 Now we just need to drop the price and get the EDAC (ethernet digital audio converter) tweaked for even more fun…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

soundsgoodtome said:


> Finally got it working thanks to [@=/u/430029/Muziqboy]@Muziqboy[/@]'s patience and helping me set it up and troubleshoot. I'll just say this for initial impression, whoever implemented the usb transport/connection for audio set the audio world back by however long it's been since they were implemented. (Read:should be shot).
> 
> 
> The SQ jump is not subtle, even with just active speakers at the moment (Fostex PM0.4d)  I want to say the difference between the Rednet 3 and the stock USB on this Matrix mini-i (super mid-fi dac) is the same proportions as upgrading from a Schiit Bifrost MB to a Yggy. Which begs the question, what does this sound like with a Yggy or similar quality DAC and say an HD800? The Digital audio world is in for a treat guys, can't wait for you guys to here this stuff.




USB ain't got nothin' on AOIP!!!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johnjen said:


> So you're using just the RN3 box and no other added converters?
> And are you using the SPDIF connection?
> 
> This has mind blowing written all over it.
> ...


 
 Correct, just Rednet using it's internal clock and a direct SPDIF connection to my DAC. Almost wonder what it sounds like with an additional 15% improvement on a Mutec reclock (my wallet trembles). If anyone is frugal on audio stuff it's me, however this is one thing that I will say is worth every penny. I think this new form of transport for digital audiophiles need to be as important as say getting a  proper Dac, Amp, Headphone/Speaker. This shouldn't be something you get later downt he road after you beefed up your cables, etc etc (unless you're loaded and you do it all at once) but this should be done right after you get your DAH/S - even with entry level BJC/monoprice cables it levels with all the tweaks you can do after teh fact because USB did a number on the SQ for you to 'fix'.


----------



## Muziqboy

Have another gadget coming in that hopefully will take the SQ another step up. Will test next week when it arrives.


----------



## johnjen

Talk about wallet trembling…
  
 I am SOOO tempted to drop 1K$ + a 'decent' AES cable…
  
 The Sirens (greek mythology) are singing their songs of sonic nirvana…
 And I gotta stay tied to the mast… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

By the way, tested the AES out of the Mutec to the AES in of the Theta Dac and did not heard any difference compared to the SPDIF coax.


----------



## johnjen

That's good to know.
  
 I just keep remembering Mike Moffett's preference for the AES input into the Jggy…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> Have another gadget coming in that hopefully will take the SQ another step up. Will test next week when it arrives.


 
 Ok so ya gotta spill the beans…
  
 What gadget?
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

It's a secret for now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But if you really wanna now, you can find out by going back to the Ping pm. I mentioned something there about what audiophiles were doing.
  
  
  
 Can't say this phrase enough!
 USB AIN'T GOT NOTHIN' ON AOIP!!!


----------



## gefski

Rednet was just mentioned on the Yggy impressions thread.

You guys are ahead of the curve on this one.

Gonna order a DVS when we get home tomorrow.


----------



## johnjen

johnjen said:


> Talk about wallet trembling…
> 
> I am SOOO tempted to drop 1K$ + a 'decent' AES cable…
> 
> ...


 
 That tied to the mast thing didn't last very long, it must have been the knife in my pocket…
  
 I found a local dealer, LunchBox Audio on Lake City Way here in Seattle
 http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/
 who found a B-1 stock RN3…
 This is gunna be the dent in my wallet heard round the world, or at least in my headphones…
  
 In ≈ 1 week I too shall be AOIP enabled, again…
  
 And I ordered a Lifatec optical glass cable to run from the RN3 to my PWD for absolute galvanic isolation…
 I can also compare the RN3 to a direct connection to my MacPro's optical output,
 and of course to my dbl Wyrd USB setup.
  
 Oh boy MORE experiments…
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> That tied to the mast thing didn't last very long, it must have been the knife in my pocket…
> 
> I found a local dealer, LunchBox Audio on Lake City Way here in Seattle
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/
> ...




Yes! The more the merrier! Prepare to be astounded!


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> That tied to the mast thing didn't last very long, it must have been the knife in my pocket…
> 
> I found a local dealer, LunchBox Audio on Lake City Way here in Seattle
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/
> ...


 
 Rich (at lunchbox audio) is a good fellow and also serves on AES PNW committee with me. Highly recommended.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah Rich is a heads up guy.
 And I know how 'tight' the business he is in, is.
  
 I filled him in on what we are doing with these rednet boxes.
 I also told him about the PRT and how he could try it in his home stereo.
  
 He just might try it…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I figure I just might be able to run the audio stream out my 2nd ethernet port on my MacPro, for a completely separate network dedicated to feeding just the RN3 box.
  
 Are any of you guys running your RN3 on its own ethernet port, while using the other port to access the internet?
  
 This might just be an optimal feed for the digital audio stream.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Direct connection to the ethernet port of the computer is the best way.
  
 You can also use a Gigabit switch but it is more confusing to configure.
  
 The NUC portable computer that I have only has 1 ethernet port and is dedicated to the RN3.
  
 To acces the internet on same computer, I just use WiFi connection.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I think one of the guys in the xmos or aes67/aoip thread mentioned two nic cards- one for the rednet and one to access network storage.

Getting the dvs to a specific network is as easy as changing the selection on a dropdown menu with all your network connections.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent news!
  
 I do hope I'll be able to use the built in 2nd ethernet port as a dedicated AOIP feed.
 I'll know once the box shows up and I get into the configuration mode to tie all 3 bits of s/w together.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 20             Choke Points revisited*

 Choke Points - *CP’s* revisited
 I bring this topic up again, mostly because of my recent experiments with the Akiko sticks and the USB experiments.  These changes highlighted the observation that sometimes *CP’s* can be found in the most unlikely of places.  And these last 2 experiments dealing with reducing the noise floor of the ground and cleaning up the digital signal path have resulted in significant improvements in the overall SQ.  This further reinforces my notion of “a cascade effect where EVERYTHING can start to make a difference”.  Only now the degree of improvement isn’t slight nor difficult, at all, to determine if it is ‘Better’.
  
 Back in Part #5 I wrote this…
_“I’ve been using the term ‘choke points’ but haven’t explained what I mean, until now.
 This term refers to any portion of a system that limits the conversion from electrical power, to signal, to acoustic power in an audible way.  I have ‘discovered’ several of these limiting aspects in my system to date, but only by negation.  
 By that I mean as they were removed the overall SQ makes a sudden and obvious improvement.  One that is undeniable (well over the ≈10% threshold) and is so gratifying that there is no doubt as to its being “Better”.”_
  
_And to make things even more ‘complicated’ there does seem to be a threshold that needs to be crossed before these changes become evident to the point of undeniability.  _
  
_IOW if the system is ‘clogged’ with ‘choke points’, unless you ameliorate a major clog there is a good chance you may not hear any change, mostly due to masking/smearing of acoustical energy where it doesn’t belong.  This is a common observation made by many who try only one ‘upgrade’ like a power cable or interconnect cable, and hear no differences.  Of course there is the distinct possibility that the attempted ‘upgrade’ simply wasn’t up to the task, (it wasn’t a sufficiently better cable etc.)._
  
_But once one of these ‘choke points’ is found and improved, and it will be VERY obvious when this happens, it will be very hard to deny that not only was there a change, but it was ‘Better’, or not._
_“But once this threshold is reached it can initiate a cascade effect where EVERYTHING can start to make a difference.  However initially this can lead to further confusion and frustration once a change IS noticed, because now determining if it is really an improvement, or just a change, becomes the deciding factor instead of just IS there any change.
 This is, at least in part, why this series of articles is being presented.  To help with knowing if a change truly is “Better”.”_
  
 And to a certain extent *CP’s* can be considered much like veils, in that you really don’t know they are in place until AFTER they have been removed.
 And then when their absence is obvious, and the results are most welcome, our very familiar music can be enjoyed as if hearing it for the first time, again.
  
 This trait of hearing our music as if anew seems to be a common enough indicator that can be associated with *CP* removal, and when it becomes evident that things have changed, and definitely for the better, that another major choke point has been ‘fixed’.
  
 And sometimes even simple things can yield very significant results, such as cleaning the interconnects, or making sure the ac power delivery is optimized.  These sorts of maintenance items which can all to easily be overlooked and neglected, which when addressed can yield substantial sonic improvements, and are most welcome.
  
 And lastly another MAJOR *CP* has surfaced, namely in optimizing the digital signal path from the computer, music server, etc. to the DAC.  It seems that ethernet can be used quite effectively and it can provide a much more ‘robust’ signal path with less noise and signal degradation.
 Which leads to hearing our music as if anew, again.
 It also seems to be a Major source of *SuperGlue* action.  I’ll know in a few days for myself.

 JJ
 ps I’d forgotten how sharp I kept my pocket knife, but those ropes holding me fast to the mast were no match, and all to quickly became a pile of tatters at my feet.  My wallet weeps, but my inner audiophool geek is leaping for joy.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
*End Part 20              *
  
*Next up         Spikes, Overshoot, and Wonderful.*


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Can't wait for your impressions JJ. I feel if people took care of this transport ahead of time as a first thing to tweak necessity (from here out since this seems to be a new revelation in digital audio) then perhaps some of the necessary tweaks to make a system better wouldn't be necessary or needed down the road. I feel the term choke point may go about USB implementation too lightly, the term sabotaging might be better used as it seems to effect mid tier DACs as much as top tier DACs both old and new.

Of course the dac makers didn't help by sticking usb in all their equipment (to help sales with convenience) but in doing so I feel other ways of transport was overlooked when a simple 100 base network had been available long before usb. Chalk one up for the pro audio world


----------



## Muziqboy

Well listening to music with the RedNet 3 instead of the USB based ddc's sounds more like a roadblock has been removed.


----------



## Muziqboy

So JJ, when you get your RN3 just get used to the auditory revelation that it brings to the ears.
  
 Then after a while, try another tweak that *to my ears at least*, lifted the SQ a little bit more.
  
 Yes your very own Akiko Triple AC stick adapted to plug into the rca of both the RN3 and the Mutec.
  
 I'll let you be the judge on this one and see if you hear any improvements!


----------



## Muziqboy

It seems that what the RedNets bring to the Digital Audio table is the ability to let whatever DAC is connected to it, perform to it's peak without limitations.


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Can't wait for your impressions JJ. I feel if people took care of this transport ahead of time as a first thing to tweak necessity (from here out since this seems to be a new revelation in digital audio) then perhaps some of the necessary tweaks to make a system better wouldn't be necessary or needed down the road. I feel the term choke point may go about USB implementation too lightly, the term sabotaging might be better used as it seems to effect mid tier DACs as much as top tier DACs both old and new.
> 
> Of course the dac makers didn't help by sticking usb in all their equipment (to help sales with convenience) but in doing so I feel other ways of transport was overlooked when a simple 100 base network had been available long before usb. Chalk one up for the pro audio world


 
 I too am looking forward to exploring this method of digital audio transfer to my DAC.
 My spidey sense has been ringing off the hook sense I first stumbled upon this info, thanks to you and Muziqboy
 I figure this is a prelude to getting a Jggy and spoon feeding it a 'tweako' digital feed…
  
  
 As I see it the manufacturers HAVE to offer ease of installation and use.
 USB is ubiquitous and so, despite it's limitations, is and will remain widely used.
  
 For us Audiophools who are willing to suffer the pangs of having to deal with the funkiness of top end gear (setting up a whole nuther network just to feed a dac, for instance) we are willing to go to untold lengths to 'find out' and then hopefully revel in the acoustic bliss…
 It's what we do… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Besides there is no 'standard' ethernet implementation for AOIP, yet.
 Perhaps Danté will become that, in due course.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> So JJ, when you get your RN3 just get used to the auditory revelation that it brings to the ears.
> 
> Then after a while, try another tweak that *to my ears at least*, lifted the SQ a little bit more.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah that was one of my many additional experiments, to add the RN3 to the lowered noise floor accorded by the Akiko canister, among several other experiments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There is one potential downside to adding the RN3 to this common ground plane in that it might induce aditional noise/hum (ground loop), but if that happens it will be evident right away.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I have 2 of the Akiko Triple and the RN3 and Mutec each have 1 plugged in and I hear an improvement in the SQ but it is very subtle though. Maybe it needs some more time and I'll just leave it plugged in. You may be able to distinguish the improvements more since you have played with these sticks a lot on your experimentations.


----------



## Muziqboy

If you open the RN3 up, be careful to not yank the cover out of the way as there is a ground wire that is screwed to the underside of the cover.
 Thought I just warn you in advance.
  
 I was actually thinking of just installing the Akiko Triple inside the RN3 and hardwiring to the chassis.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> I have 2 of the Akiko Triple and the RN3 and Mutec each have 1 plugged in and I hear an improvement in the SQ but it is very subtle though. Maybe it needs some more time and I'll just leave it plugged in. You may be able to distinguish the improvements more since you have played with these sticks a lot on your experimentations.


 
 Yeah, the changes the Akiko cans make are subtle especially when not directly connected to the noise sources.
 But these subtle differences become much more obvious when rewired to connect directly to the ground plane on the 'noisy' devices (dacs, RN3, etc.).
 This degree of tweaking is really where the benefits can really show up.
  


muziqboy said:


> If you open the RN3 up, be careful to not yank the cover out of the way as there is a ground wire that is screwed to the underside of the cover.
> Thought I just warn you in advance.
> 
> I was actually thinking of just installing the Akiko Triple inside the RN3 and hardwiring to the chassis.


 
 Thanks for the heads up about the ground run from the case.
 I have seen the use of such ground schemes before in industrial electronics and so I'm used to looking for them.
  
 And with 'noisy' digital devices, grounding becomes even more critical!
  
 JJ :thumb :thumb


----------



## Muziqboy

Oh another thing. I just opened the RN3 and replaced the fuse that you mentioned with an Audio Horizons Platinum Reference that I have lying around.
 The marking on the fuse was T2A250V so a 2 amp. Not sure if it's a slow or fast blow but it has a thick spring like coil inside. I had a 2.5 amp so I just used that. Did not notice an immediate improvement so will let it settle in.
  
 I will modify 1 of the Akiko Triple and go ahead and hardwire to the chassis of the RN3 and maybe just use double sided tape or wire ties to affix to the inside chassis.


----------



## johnjen

The 'spring' indicates it's a slow blow.
 Is the wire that runs from the end of that 'spring' to the end of the fuse, mighty tiny?
 If so it might be a 0.2amp fuse.
 I can't see it being a 2 amp fuse for only a 30 watt draw, and especially during 220-240volt operation.
  
 You might try connecting your Akiko canister to the chassis side where that ground wire (not at the lid) is connected.
 Be careful and don't let those 3 stiff wires short out to anything else.
 Perhaps a stubby adapter from that existing grounding point to the Akiko Canister would be in order.
  
 You might be shocked at what happens, especially if the can is inside the case.
 This is an experiment I was thinking about making as well, only I was thinking of putting it inside the dac.
  
 But once I re-wired the canister and tied it directly to the ground plane of my amp and dac, the results were and still are taking the SQ to new heights.
 I can see where tying in the RN3 to this lowered noise floor, could result in a noticable SQ step up as well.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I re-read the markings on the fuse again and it does say 5K T2A250V. The thick spring like coil in the fuse goes from end to end. I do not see any tiny wires inside the fuse.
 The T*2A*250V (2A) indicates that it is a 2amp right? At least that's how I interpret it.
  
I'll solder extension wires from the end of the Akikos to reach the ground point of where the ground wire is attached to the casing of the RN3.


----------



## johnjen

Is there a manufacturer name or logo?
 How about any other markings?
  
 And if that spring does actually run end to end then it most likely is a 2 amp fuse.
 Having said that, and usually the 'T' stands for tube (shaped) but it might also be a means of further defining the range of that 2A.
  
 But if it is a 2 amp fuse that means it won't blow unless there is a catastrophic failure of the power supply.
 I mean 2 amps at 240volts is nearly 500 watts and this device is rated at 30VA, which is a factor of ≈ 16 times less power usage.
  
 My scalp is showing signs of redness as I continue to scratch my head…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Ok read it again and it is actually  5K T2AL250V. Markings on other end of fuse says JET.


----------



## johnjen

I just tried to search for the specs on these fuses and they are a Chinese brand with very little in english so I'll call focusright and get the info from them..
 I always like to plan ahead and have a spare fuse on hand, just in case 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But as I read it, the fuse is a 5k series, tube 2 AL type, rated at 250volts.
 But that could be entirely wrong.
  
 I'll find out tomorrow.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So over on the XMOS thread a poster added a link to a 'universal' fuse code #'s and their meaning page.
  
 Yeah it’s a 2 amp fuse…
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2550#post_12648693
  
 Which means the fuse is setup for a catastrophic failure and not for the load that the digital circuits present.
  
 Which I figure is yet another factor in why these units sound great.
 This fuse is nowhere near as much of a *CP* using a 2 amp slow blow fuse, instead of a 0.2 amp SB fuse.
 And this is on a switching power supply.
  
 I can understand the design decision in this approach.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## Benny-x

There are still many Ethernet for audio tweaks around. I'm surprised there hasn't been any talk in here with the great benefits that fibre Ethernet provides over copper. You can use a device called an FMC (Fibre Media Convertor) that has standard copper, RJ-45 on one side (connect to your normal device) the fibre for the run between devices, then back in another FMC so that you can connect the normal Ethernet port on the other side to your other device. 

Like the above mentioned idea of going optical out of the Focusrite RN3, this 100% isolates components as there's no copper for the nasties to travel on. 

There's HUGE thread on it over at ComputerAudiophile, and if I were going with Focusrite Rednet products I'd definitely go the extra mile and put in some FMCs


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm still working on getting the right settings on my computer for the rednet 3 but I think I'm unnecessarily chasing 192khz bandwidth as 98% of my music are Redbook and 96khZ.

I think I'll settle on 24/96 since my computers don't seem to keep up with 192. Now I need to figure how to output to toslink, can the r3 output to 8 toslink devices simultaneously? Gotta get reading the manual


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm still working on getting the right settings on my computer for the rednet 3 but I think I'm unnecessarily chasing 192khz bandwidth as 98% of my music are Redbook and 96khZ.
> 
> I think I'll settle on 24/96 since my computers don't seem to keep up with 192. Now I need to figure how to output to toslink, can the r3 output to 8 toslink devices simultaneously? Gotta get reading the manual


 
 I think that 'distributing' the same signal to the other channels would be a s/w function.
 My guess is it would be in RedNet control, but I don't recall reading anything about being able to do that.
  
 But I have no hands on fussing, quite yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh yeah I did try to run the same music up and down the sample rates while comparing my new Toslink Optical cable to my tweako 2-WYRD setup.
 The results were inconclusive.
 Except that optical was more veiled (a bigger *CP* if you will).
  
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johnjen said:


> I think that 'distributing' the same signal to the other channels would be a s/w function.
> My guess is it would be in RedNet control, but I don't recall reading anything about being able to do that.
> 
> But I have no hands on fussing, quite yet.
> ...


 

 I'm starting to think that the AES output via breakout cable and the SPDIF output is the only output you can use when using the DVS.. I need to actually get the time to read the manual here.


----------



## johnjen

I'm looking into either having a true 110Ω balanced AES rated cable made (or make one up myself) for the RN3 (DB25 connector to a 3 pinXLR) using hi-freq rated cable, for just one or 2 channels, not all 8.
 Trying to track down a 'proper' DB25 connector is the stumbling block at the moment, what with so many choices.
 Narrowing the choices down to an 'Audio' grade version is taking some time.
  
 The wire and XLR connector are covered but that DB25 is taking its sweet time to be found.
  
 JJ


----------



## atomicbob

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm still working on getting the right settings on my computer for the rednet 3 but I think I'm unnecessarily chasing 192khz bandwidth as 98% of my music are Redbook and 96khZ.
> 
> I think I'll settle on 24/96 since my computers don't seem to keep up with 192. Now I need to figure how to output to toslink, can the r3 output to 8 toslink devices simultaneously? Gotta get reading the manual


 
 Page 22 & 23 of the Rednet System User Guide will be good for your enlightenment. Welcome to virtual patchbays, which are quite common in Pro-Audio setups. You may route (patch) one source to many for distribution. It is how distribution takes place in very large setups, think stadium or outdoor concert systems with line arrays for audiences of 10,000 - 250,000. Will be looking forward to your thoughts on the performance comparison of SPDIF over coax vs optical.


----------



## johnjen

benny-x said:


> There are still many Ethernet for audio tweaks around. I'm surprised there hasn't been any talk in here with the great benefits that fibre Ethernet provides over copper. You can use a device called an FMC (Fibre Media Convertor) that has standard copper, RJ-45 on one side (connect to your normal device) the fibre for the run between devices, then back in another FMC so that you can connect the normal Ethernet port on the other side to your other device.
> 
> Like the above mentioned idea of going optical out of the Focusrite RN3, this 100% isolates components as there's no copper for the nasties to travel on.
> 
> There's HUGE thread on it over at ComputerAudiophile, and if I were going with Focusrite Rednet products I'd definitely go the extra mile and put in some FMCs


 
 Thanks for the heads up on this.
 It's good to know that we aren't the only ones crazy enough to jump off into the deep end… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Is there a particular place to start in that thread (or a post #) for that DIY ether-fibre-ether FMC?
  
 I just got a piece of pristine toslink glass fiber cable (Lifatec) so this would be an easy additional test to make.
 And I saw something like this in one of the pro audio catalogs, but didn't investigate any further.
 And if there is a DIY'r version so much the better.
  
 Thanks for this!
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

johnjen said:


> I'm looking into either having a true 110Ω balanced AES rated cable made (or make one up myself) for the RN3 (DB25 connector to a 3 pinXLR) using hi-freq rated cable, for just one or 2 channels, not all 8.
> Trying to track down a 'proper' DB25 connector is the stumbling block at the moment, what with so many choices.
> Narrowing the choices down to an 'Audio' grade version is taking some time.
> 
> ...


 
 Update.
 Atomic Bob aimed me towards Markertec and their custom cable capability.
  
 Round one is a 2 channel DB25 to 3pin XLR RF rated plug, quoted at $77
  
 I 'tweaked' the specs just a bit and hopefully will come back with a 'Better' more focused cable one we would prefer as a truly 'Tweako' cable.
  
 And thanks Bob for that reference to the user guide.
 That explains Danté's channel distribution system. 
  
 And thanks for the prompt to read the manual BEFORE the unit shows up…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 JJ


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> Thanks for the heads up on this.
> It's good to know that we aren't the only ones crazy enough to jump off into the deep end…
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The connector used on fiber media converters is usually different than toslink. You will need another glass fiber cable with the appropriate connector terminations, which Lifatec can make but they will want to confirm with you that you know what you are doing. Too many ask for the special termination only to find it isn't what they needed. The cables are special and non-returnable. Here is an example of a commercial FMC:
 https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Fiber-Media-Converter/dp/B004FUUY52


----------



## Benny-x

atomicbob said:


> The connector used on fiber media converters is usually different than toslink. You will need another glass fiber cable with the appropriate connector terminations, which Lifatec can make but they will want to confirm with you that you know what you are doing. Too many ask for the special termination only to find it isn't what they needed. The cables are special and non-returnable. Here is an example of a commercial FMC:
> https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Fiber-Media-Converter/dp/B004FUUY52


 
 Bob's right on the part of your Lifatec cable totally not being compatible. Don't bother going down the road of getting them to customize one for you, the best glass, fibre optic cables are made by Corning and can be had cheap on eBay. Best place to get them and the best quality.
  
 As far as the convertor Bob linked, that is an FMC, yes. I'll run back through the posts and find the most recent, "plug and play" configuration. That's the nice thing about that thread was that it's a tested configuration thread, so it's not just people reommending whatever, they're recommending setups they've tried. That's really important because due to stupid and untold issues, a lot of this stuff isn't compatible with each other. 
  
 So, I'll get you a build list for it and post it in here in a bit. All in, for the convertors and the fibre run it'll be about $150-200. Not nothing, but not a terrible cost to have a look either. Depending on if you build a little more forward thinking in the beginning though, you could spend ~$300 and then have a setup that could scale for much less money.


----------



## johnjen

Well my RN3 arrived today.
 It's all of 95% ready to go, but for 1 small issue that makes it so it won't work until it's resolved.
  
 The firmware is updated, twice in the process of installing and setting up the various h/w and s/w parts in order to talk with each other.
  
 Mine hangs on the 2nd firmware update.
 I have tech support requests in already, and hopefully it will be solved sooner rather than later.
  
 The ethernet link is up and functioning, in some ways, but enough as there are commands and responses happening, thus its working.
 And I can monitor the ethernet traffic on this port which tells me its talking away…
  
 The DVS (Danté Virtual Soundcard) is loaded and all of the controllers see all of the hardware bits so the dots are all connected except that what those responses are, aren't what is supposed to happen.
  
 An adventure for sure…
  
 Oh and while I was perusing the Focusrite site I ran across the listing of fuses used in all of their gear.
 The rated fuse for this device (RN3) is .25amp (240V) and .5amp (120V), which is about what I would expect for values, given the power usage.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

benny-x said:


> Bob's right on the part of your Lifatec cable totally not being compatible. Don't bother going down the road of getting them to customize one for you, the best glass, fibre optic cables are made by Corning and can be had cheap on eBay. Best place to get them and the best quality.
> 
> As far as the convertor Bob linked, that is an FMC, yes. I'll run back through the posts and find the most recent, "plug and play" configuration. That's the nice thing about that thread was that it's a tested configuration thread, so it's not just people reommending whatever, they're recommending setups they've tried. That's really important because due to stupid and untold issues, a lot of this stuff isn't compatible with each other.
> 
> So, I'll get you a build list for it and post it in here in a bit. All in, for the convertors and the fibre run it'll be about $150-200. Not nothing, but not a terrible cost to have a look either. Depending on if you build a little more forward thinking in the beginning though, you could spend ~$300 and then have a setup that could scale for much less money.


 
 Thanks for putting together that list.
 I figure I won't be the only one who will explore this DIY'r project. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But what still gets me is that these digital systems are so sensitive to a variety of issues, electrical noise, jitter, complete electrical isolation, and other factors which have yet to be discovered.
 It makes me think it's as bad as very low voltage analog signals being passed from device to device, and perhaps even more so.
  
 I mean how many 'layers' are needed to deliver a 'pristine' signal such that the SQ is not messed with?
 This stuff is enough to cause us to HAVE to join the Hair Club For Men… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johnjen Just want to make sure your dante virtual soundcard is on when you're trying the updates. I had the same issue. 

Also if the update fails, it helped to reboot the pc to try again. Give it a go on the update with the DVS started.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Also got off the phone with Focusrite Rednet specialist and it seems the optical out won't be compatible with our spdif dacs as it outputs in multichannel adat format. 

For multi-output work, you'll need the AES/EBU breakout cable which will do 4 additional outputs.


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Also got off the phone with Focusrite Rednet specialist and it seems the optical out won't be compatible with our spdif dacs as it outputs in multichannel adat format.
> 
> For multi-output work, you'll need the AES/EBU breakout cable which will do 4 additional outputs.


 
 Well that sucks, I guess…
  
 The thing is with the 2nd firmware update incomplete I can't even control the RN3 enough to switch between the AES or SPDIF outs.
  
 And yes I have the DVS installed and available in Media Center.
 In fact I tried it both ways, with DVS installed and before it was installed, with the same results in either case.
 And I have re-booted everything multiple times as well.
  
 So if the toslink adat outputs won't work for our dacs that limits us to AES and SPDIF.
 Which I can confirm since my PWD indicates that it can't establish a connection to the RN3, even though the cable has red light coming out of it.
  
 And I have the latest quote for an AES single channel (stereo output) breakout cable, 
 $65.66 using Mogami W3080 cable and Neutrik Hi Freq rated XLR connectors.
 I figure If I need to add a 2nd or even 3rd channel it will be easy to do so in the future.
  
 I'll be ordering one up soon, or I might just go cheap and order up the parts and assemble it myself.
 It's not exactly rocket surgery, er no, brain science, er sumpt'n like that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But first I need to snag a spdif cable (since my toslink won't work) just to start using this RedNet box.
 Of course I'll need to finish the firmware upgrade before anything else.
  
 Work'n it…
 And this just in,
 Focusrite is asking for more screen shots…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

So what was the outcome? Did you get it going?


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Also got off the phone with Focusrite Rednet specialist and it seems the optical out won't be compatible with our spdif dacs as it outputs in multichannel adat format.
> 
> For multi-output work, you'll need the AES/EBU breakout cable which will do 4 additional outputs.


 
 So are there ADAT to optical SPDIF converters?
  
 Hmm…  Searching, Searching, Searching…
 Not finding much but a Mutec MC-4 with a (.5ppm vs .1ppm for the MC-3+) master clock…
  
 I wonder if it would be worth the effort to try this vs the MC-3+
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

The mc-3+ usb (not just standard mc-3+) has much better reclock capabilities over the previous models. It's kind of shady that despite the similar name and idea that the usb version is just the same model with USB it's actually more like the next gen unit with much better performance. Mc3 + usb is better than stacking 2-3 mc-3+

As for adat converters, the signal will need processing and may add jitter which defeats the purpose of implementing Ethernet (just a guess).


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> So what was the outcome? Did you get it going?


 
 No not yet.  The help is based out of England and the time difference is working against me.
  
 And unless this is a 'known issue' (which doesn't seem to be the case thus far) my guess is I may be sending the RN3 in for repair.
 I hope not, but that would be faster than a s/w fix in any case (if that would solve this issue).
  
 But it probably won't be until Monday before Focusrite contacts me next.
  
 Bummer…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> The mc-3+ usb (not just standard mc-3+) has much better reclock capabilities over the previous models. It's kind of shady that despite the similar name and idea that the usb version is just the same model with USB it's actually more like the next gen unit with much better performance. Mc3 + usb is better than stacking 2-3 mc-3+
> 
> As for adat converters, the signal will need processing and may add jitter which defeats the purpose of implementing Ethernet (just a guess).


 
 Reading Mutec's specs for both the 3+ and 3+USB they have the same jitter ratings (0.1ppm).
 Perhaps they are getting ready to upgrade the 3+.
 Curious.
  
 Yeah adding more jitter due to a poor converter would be a step backwards.
  
 And NOW it seems as though the RN3 is working.
 Even though the 2nd firmware update hasn't been installed yet.
  
 All of the front panel lights indicate data streams are working.
  
 Perhaps it was my lack of proper setup or I just fussed with it long enough to nudge it to work.
  
 Now all I need is a SPDIF cable to make sure.
 I was hoping on using the TOSLINK cable but that went down in flames.
  
 Perhaps Curbfeeler has one I can borrow…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

In regards to the mutec, the wording is carefully tucked into the description on their webpage. It's a one sentence and that was all they wrote type sneaker-y, the guys over at computer audiophile found it and it was also mentioned in the aes67 thread here.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

"The next Generation in Clocking Technology

The world-renowned 1G-Clock technology that we introduced with the popular MC-3+ Smart Clock by MUTEC has been setting new standards for the generation of nearly jitter-free clock signals. Our engineers have derived a reference clock rate for our DDS (direct digital synthesis) process through extensive lab testing, which reduces jitter and noise artifacts present in all other DDS algorithms to their absolute minimum. Building on these fundamentals, we were able to further improve clocking algorithms in the MC-3+USB based on our 1G-Clock technology. The reduction of power supply noise has been taken to yet another level by employing the latest cutting-edge components. All of these measures combined yield an additional, clearly audible improvement in transparency, spatiality, and musicality of the re-clocked audio as our distinguished beta-testers can attest."


----------



## atomicbob

@Soundsgoodtome  If the difference had been more clear, I would have opted for the MC-3+ USB instead of the MC-3+. But I didn't plan on using the USB and thought that was the only difference.
  
@johnjen  Did you ever get the firmware updates hang resolved? My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned.
  
 I'm dropping out of the XMOS thread. Too much activity. I may check the AOIP thread now that I know it exists but I'm inclined to wait and hear the filtered information from you two. (edit - potentially inflammatory statements removed)


----------



## jelt2359

Followed Bob over here, because it's his comments I'm most keen on re: the comparison he's making. Bob, is this the other thread that you were referring to?


----------



## atomicbob

jelt2359 said:


> Followed Bob over here, because it's his comments I'm most keen on re: the comparison he's making. Bob, is this the other thread that you were referring to?


 
 The thread to which I referred is:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio
 Same OP as the XMOS thread and contains useful information.
  
 This thread was started by @johnjen, who also has a bit of listening experience and also explores / chases topics related to perceptions of sound quality.


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> Now all I need is a SPDIF cable to make sure.
> 
> JJ


 
 You need a SPDIF cable? I have many in my lab. They are BNC to BNC Canare 75 ohm high end video cable with 75 ohm BNC to RCA adapters at each end. Let me know the length and I'll get you one.


----------



## atomicbob

Here is a screenshot for the setup I am using to split a single zone from JRMC to two ASIO drivers for USB and EN output:


----------



## atomicbob

Latest observations for my comparisons between a USB DDC via Gustard U12 and EN via Dante Rednet D16 using the chains specified below. I will note that quick A/B doesn't yield much in the way of audible differences. Those differences require on the order of 10s of minutes before they become apparent. There ARE differences. Some more subtle, some less subtle.
  
 Three chain comparisons to date. I may do some additional cable swapping but these comparisons are time consuming and tiring. At some point I just want to enjoy the music.
  
 All chains have the same Digital beginnings and Analog endings:
  
 Digital Source:
 JRMC -> SRC to 96KHz 24 bit -> VST plugins including Sonarworks HD800 compensation -> Waves Nx -> Phase Reverse -> Virtual Audio Cable -> Digital T -> transport comparison chain #X below
  
 Analog End:
 transport comparison chain #X below -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA cables -> a channel on a Zana Deux with Sophia Electric 6SL7 -> Phase Reverse -> HD800 via Draug 2 cables
  
  
 Comparison #1
 XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
 Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
  
 Comparison #2
 XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
 Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
  
 Comparison #3
 XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
 Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
  
 I won't wax poetic on the differences. That is not one of my fortes. I will summarize that when a difference was audible to me, it was more of better focus, greater clarity, less fuzzy, more dimensional type of experience. I also felt a deeper emotional connection to the music on the preferred chain in the comparison.
  
 Comparison #1: nearly equal to my auditory perception. Very hard for me to discern a difference. Note that both chains have galvanic isolation from the physical source.
  
 Comparison #2: Dante chain preferred. Note this is a preference of GuMB over Yggdrasil which I attribute to the differences in the transport chain.
  
 Comparison #3: Dante chain most definitely preferred. The Yggdrasil over the GuMB as one would expect, but by a larger preference than the same two with native USB.
  
 These are my observations and preferences. As always YMMV.


----------



## johnjen

> Originally Posted by *atomicbob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> snip
> 
> @johnjen  Did you ever get the firmware updates hang resolved? My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned.
> ...


 
 I did get it running and am listening even as I type this.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 It will take more break-in to reach its peak but thus far it is running at or a bit ahead of my 2-Wyrd setup in terms of SQ.
  
 I expect it will improve as it accumulates a few more hours.
 And of course a few tweaks from me… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_*"My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned."*_
  
 This is exactly what my RN3 is doing. I have to force quit it to release the 'frozen app'.
 According to Focusrite they are puzzled about this.
 I will add your experience to my next email to them.
  
 I also found out that my RN3 has already been updated, so this 2nd firmware update is unnecessary.
 I have even tried the manual update method with the same results as the 'automatic' version (when it asks if I want to update right after startup of the app) with the big 'Freeze' happening the same way.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

atomicbob said:


> You need a SPDIF cable? I have many in my lab. They are BNC to BNC Canare 75 ohm high end video cable with 75 ohm BNC to RCA adapters at each end. Let me know the length and I'll get you one.


 
 Thanks for the offer!
 1.5 meters seems the 'ideal' length according to those who pay attention to signal reflections and such.
 And like your D16 my RN3 uses rca connectors instead of BNC which puzzles me since this is supposed to be pro audio gear.
 But I digress…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I want to try several different SPDIF cables and compare them to each other and to AES/EBU via the breakout DB25.
  
 Right now I'm using Curbfeelers Oyaide cable and it does sound quite nice.
 I am curious how well AES/EBU will fare. 
 I have always thought that it should be a superior hardware implementation to any of the rest of the digital audio formats.
 Well except for perhaps ethernet, which seems to be making some headway.
  
 I just might spring for one of these, especially with the US to Can $ exchange rates right now.
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/store-backup/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588
  
 It has all the tweako™ approved touches and is FULLY buzzword compliant to boot.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 rb2013 suggested it was a bargain and held it's own against some of the big$$$ cables.
  
 But I'm really hoping that AES/EBU will walk away with the 1st place award…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811713/rednet-and-aes67/0_30#post_12662145


New Rednet thread gents, the old one got locked due to one USB cleaner maker getting it locked - coincidence maybe


----------



## Muziqboy

That USB cleaner maker is trying his best to prevent the Dante AOIP from taking off.
 I have no doubt that he will be infiltrating that new thread also.


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Thanks for the offer!
> 1.5 meters seems the 'ideal' length according to those who pay attention to signal reflections and such.
> And like your D16 my RN3 use rca connectors instead of BNC which puzzles me since this is supposed to be pro audio gear.
> But I digress…
> ...


 
  
 +1 on the Audio Sensiblity Statement cables. I have 3 of these hooked up to my RedNet 3 and daisy chained Mutec-MC3+
  
 It already sounds phenomenal out of SPDIF coax.
 I'm not sure if the AES/EBU connection will be that much better but like they always say here. YMMV


----------



## johnjen

Ok so Muziqboy how long did it take for your RN3 box to 'blossom'?
  
 It's been on since like 1pm and now, 12 hrs later, it starting to reveal completely new acoustic nuances, as in another *CP* has been removed, as in I'm hearing my music as if new, again,
 again.
  
 And I figure it'll take some time to come into full focus…
  
 Oh, and did you get your SPDIF cables cooked?
  
 If not, that too is on my list (I have an Audio Dharma cooker) and I would surmise that it will help, a bunch.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

The 1st day I got it, I was only able to listen for about 4 hrs. The following day another 4 hrs. then the Mutec showed up and I immediately hooked it up to the RN3 which bumped the SQ up.
 So I was not able to notice any blossoming as I did not took the Mutec out of the chain since I really liked what it added to the SQ.
  
 I just bought the un-cooked cables and just let it accumulate some burn-in time in the chain.


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> I did get it running and am listening even as I type this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have screenshots captured showing this issue. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the Rednet D16, just one annoying click when starting Rednet Control. Fortunately once configured RC isn't used very often.

  

  
 I'd appreciate hearing any comments you receive from Focusrite.


----------



## atomicbob

muziqboy said:


> +1 on the Audio Sensiblity Statement cables. I have 3 of these hooked up to my RedNet 3 and daisy chained Mutec-MC3+
> 
> It already sounds phenomenal out of SPDIF coax.
> I'm not sure if the AES/EBU connection will be that much better but like they always say here. YMMV


 
 However, if the AES/EBU connection could provide similar level of perceived sound quality with lower cost cables that would be a net win for others wanting to enjoy the AOIP benefits with lower capital investment.


----------



## Muziqboy

atomicbob said:


> However, if the AES/EBU connection could provide similar level of perceived sound quality with lower cost cables that would be a net win for others wanting to enjoy the AOIP benefits with lower capital investment.


 
  
 Very much agree on that point Bob. Do you have the Mutec MC-3+ without the USB and using it as a SPDIF reclocker?
 I got 2 of these and doing daisy chained reclocking and experienced another SQ jump with the 2nd reclock.
 Andrew heard the SQ jump with the daisy chained reclock vs. just straight out of RedNet 3 during the meet yesterday in Bellingham.


----------



## atomicbob

muziqboy said:


> Very much agree on that point Bob. Do you have the Mutec MC-3+ without the USB and using it as a SPDIF reclocker?
> I got 2 of these and doing daisy chained reclocking and experienced another SQ jump with the 2nd reclock.
> Andrew heard the SQ jump with the daisy chained reclock vs. just straight out of RedNet 3 during the meet yesterday in Bellingham.


 
 Yes, I have the non-USB version. If I had known of the clock difference between the two MC-3+ I would have opted to spend the extra $200. I am using it for format conversion and reclocking. The MC-3+ is well worth the asking price. However, so is the Rednet D16, to me for the multiple AES ports and EN physical / Dante logical transport.


----------



## johnjen

So a 'progress' report on the break in of my RN3.
  
 At 12hrs the SQ was at or near a peak, as in greater detail, better focus and details.
 Now at 36hrs the SQ has fallen off it's previous peak and now my 2-Wyrd setup is 'Better'.
  
 This is a usual pattern.
 What is unusual about it is that the amount of time to reach the 1st peak and the subsequent timing of when the SQ swings into 'poor' performance, was longer than I have seen in the past.
  
 For instance the very bottom of the bass has 'dried up' a tad, the rich *TUBZ* harmonic structure of each *'voice'* has gone 'flat' or lost its dimensionality (2d vs 3d).
 The acoustic dynamics that force my head to dance on my shoulders have been muted just a touch as well.
 This is like the system is out of focus.
  
 Now I fully expect that this will follow previous break-in swings in SQ and head back to that peak (only moar of it) but I'm glad I have a 'reference' from which I can easily compare these 2 signal paths from computer to dac, back to back (≈15 sec switch overs).
  
 And make no mistake the overall SQ is stellar using either signal path.
 These 'differences' are subtle and only really apparent by direct comparison.
  
 IOW if I only had one or the other they both would be WAY more than acceptable.
 And I do expect the RN3 to surpass my 2-Wyrd setup, especially after I tweak a few *CP's*… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It's just a matter of when…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

IT'S BAAAAAAACK!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ok so 24hrs later and the RN3 has caught up and is surpassing my 2-Wyrd setup by just about every term I use to determine '*Better*'.
 And I can tell it still has a ways to go yet to reach its peak SQ performance.
  
 So far it has '*Better*' *C3* (cohesion, coherence, coupling) of the entire acoustic presentation (all *'voices'*, and the acoustic 'space'), and *tLFF* is improved as well.
 There is also better focus and inner detail, but these (and much else) are still morphing and it's hard to tell where they will wind up.
 But my head is back to dancing on my shoulders.
  
 AND
 I just ordered enough parts to make 2) DB-25 to XLR AES cables using 2 different types of wire each.
 This is using pro audio spec wire and connectors with a bit better DB25 connectors.
  
 So each breakout cable has 2 active channels using Mogami and Canare 110Ω balanced single channel wire.
 This will make it easy to compare these 2 wires with each other.
 It will also make it easy to use other wire and compare true 110Ω hi-freq rated wire with other 'audio' quality wire.
  
 AND
 I found that post that had the link to that (low cost) ethernet - optical - ethernet setp,
 Thanks to Benny-x for pointing it out.
  
 https://www.amazon.com/MC210CS-Converter-1000Mbps-single-mode-mountable/dp/B003CFATKQ/ref=pd_sim_147_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41qk8BqXG-L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR296%2C320_&refRID=12C6D7XNKRR3EHNGTCBE
  
 For under $200 it's a complete galvanic isolation between (noisy) computer and RNx device of your choice…
  
 Here is the link to the post by kelowna (which also includes a link to a 'better' PS for the converter(s)…
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio/285#post_12656916
  
 Interesting times in Audio indeed!
  
 JJ


----------



## jelt2359

I've been using this optical isolation for a while. The results are immediate and obvious. I've heard it benefits best from a better ps at the Rednet/ rendu/ non-computer side, where I personally use an IfI ipower.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Would a linear power supply with decent caps/regulation be better performance than the ipower? Or the difference wouldn't be heard? 





jelt2359 said:


> I've been using this optical isolation for a while. The results are immediate and obvious. I've heard it benefits best from a better ps at the Rednet/ rendu/ non-computer side, where I personally use an IfI ipower.


----------



## Benny-x

johnjen said:


> IT'S BAAAAAAACK!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey John,
  
 so I went back through the ComputerAudiophile thread and I also read up on your RN3. From what I gather the Focusrite RedNet series all use a Gigabit Ethernet connection, means 1000 base, vs. the older 100 and even older 10 base specs. This does limit the types of FMCs you can buy as it means you've got to get a "1000 base TX" connection on the RJ-45 (copper, TX) side and whatever on the fibre (FX) side. Sticking with "1000 base FX" on the fibre side is common in the ComputerAudiophile thread, I believe for future bottle neck reasons. 
  
 So, luckily the TP-Link MC210CS FMC you linked to matches those specs. It's really important to check out the specs on your RJ-45 Ethernet device, though. Over in that thread some of the guys were hooking up their Sonore Signature Rendus and those are base 100, so their MC210/220 FMCs wouldn't work and it took some time to figure out it was a copper side specification difference and not just a "we're trying to use FMCs and fibre with audio, so it doesn't work" problem. To anyone who's looking into this, make sure you check your copper(TX) base specs before you buy the FMCs to pair your devices. Some FMCs have auto-negotiation and can match the TX spec, others don't.
  
 After that we've got to get you some SC-SC(connector type) single mode (fibre optic cable type) fibre optic cable. Watch out not to buy multi-mode unless your FMC is a multi-mode fibre optic cable convertor. Some of these are sold in an SC-SC pair, like you see in most of the recommended Amazon set links, others are sold as single runs and you need to buy two. They're pretty easy to differentiate. 
  
 After that you "may" want to look into some el cheapo, eBay LPS, which MANY CA members have been happy with, or you can just stick with the stock SMPS units and see how it all goes in the beginning. 
  
 I hope that helps and let us know what you find. This is also looking more and more like the route I'd also like to go down. I really wish it wasn't automatically cutting out DSD though. I'm not a DSD Biereber, but I don't like cutting out the use of something automatically either. I guess that's where the Sonore microRendu comes in? Haha....


----------



## jelt2359

Oh ho. I think mine is 100. It's SC though, but I think there was some discussion on CA about 100 > 1000 in this case because less noisy.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
 And welcomed additional insight into the 'gotcha's' that lurk just below the surface of
  
  
 Quote:


benny-x said:


> Hey John,
> 
> so I went back through the ComputerAudiophile thread and I also read up on your RN3. From what I gather the Focusrite RedNet series all use a Gigabit Ethernet connection, means 1000 base, vs. the older 100 and even older 10 base specs. This does limit the types of FMCs you can buy as it means you've got to get a "1000 base TX" connection on the RJ-45 (copper, TX) side and whatever on the fibre (FX) side. Sticking with "1000 base FX" on the fibre side is common in the ComputerAudiophile thread, I believe for future bottle neck reasons.
> 
> ...


 
This is great advice.
Especially about the single/multi mode optical cable matchup with the transceiver.
Those kind of pesky details can dash ones hopes when the project comes to an abrupt halt, as in ya cain't get there from here…
  
And yeah good clean power is always important, but as an experiment the first step is always implementation, then tweaking after system stability and familiarity.
It's WAY to easy to throw just one to many variables right from the start and wind up wasting time and $$.
At least that has been my experience with these sorts of explorations.
  
While I can understand the desire to not exclude a format because the setup won't accommodate it…
I see it as, when overall system capability (being able to deal with DSD, or not) starts to stretch the SQ of that which has primary importance (playing the music you are already listening to) then the 'trade off' is mess'n with what I *will* be listening to, most of the time.
  
And DSD and its many variants sure seem still born to me, or at the very least a demonstration of "Oh WOW".
As in "Oh WOW' that sounds good but I want to hear this or that album, but that's not likely to happen any time soon.
  
And the SQ of CD's is, when dialed in, more than what most would ever expect.
  
JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Good heads up Benny-x, I ordered my fiber stuff last night during a soccer half time on my phone. I bought 2 mc210 on Amazon and a cable. When you say copper side tx, you're simply saying gigabit lan right?


----------



## johnjen

benny-x said:


> Hey John,
> 
> so I went back through the ComputerAudiophile thread and I also read up on your RN3. From what I gather the Focusrite RedNet series all use a Gigabit Ethernet connection, means 1000 base, vs. the older 100 and even older 10 base specs. This does limit the types of FMCs you can buy as it means you've got to get a "1000 base TX" connection on the RJ-45 (copper, TX) side and whatever on the fibre (FX) side. Sticking with "1000 base FX" on the fibre side is common in the ComputerAudiophile thread, I believe for future bottle neck reasons.
> 
> ...


 
 When I was reading thru a thread it was mentioned that the ethernet cables should be as short as possible.
 Or at least one of them should be, etc.
  
 Do you remember those details?
 Specifically how short is short?
 Like less than 3 ft?
  
 JJ


----------



## Benny-x

johnjen said:


> When I was reading thru a thread it was mentioned that the ethernet cables should be as short as possible.
> Or at least one of them should be, etc.
> 
> Do you remember those details?
> ...


 
 Yeah, that's the general consensus over there. I don't think anyone came to a "desired length", but I saw stuff about 1m, 50cm, and 20cm. If it's doable and there's no issue with power contamination into your isolated audio chain, I'd opt for <20cm.


----------



## johnjen

benny-x said:


> Yeah, that's the general consensus over there. I don't think anyone came to a "desired length", but I saw stuff about 1m, 50cm, and 20cm. If it's doable and there's no issue with power contamination into your isolated audio chain, I'd opt for <20cm.


 
 Were the shorties for both ends of the chain?
  
 JJ


----------



## Benny-x

johnjen said:


> Were the shorties for both ends of the chain?
> 
> JJ


 
 Yup, as short as is practical, on both ends.


----------



## johnjen

Now yer gunna make me work at this, what with figur'n on where I can locate those little boxes.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> So JJ, when you get your RN3 just get used to the auditory revelation that it brings to the ears.
> 
> Then after a while, try another tweak that *to my ears at least*, lifted the SQ a little bit more.
> 
> ...


 
 So did you install your Akiko stick inside yet?
 And if so what did you notice?
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I decided to hook the 2 Triple Akikos to the last 2 digital devices on the chain before the Decware amp.
 1 on the Theta dac and 1 on the Mutec MC3+.
 I did heard a slight increase in the fullness of the sound as in more grunt and growl in the music.


----------



## johnjen

If I were in your shoes, I'd also try connecting one of them to the amp.
 It may have a greater impact.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I had it connected to the amp before but pulled it and connected to the mutec and it sounded better. I think it is more beneficial to connect it to digital sources since those are the ones that generates the most noise and emi/rfi.

Plus I already have a whole bunch of tweaks to the amp that eliminated most of the emi/rfi noise.


----------



## johnjen

Ah, I see…
  
 And I too noticed more change from connecting to my DAC than to the amp.
 But having both being AK'd was better still.
  
 But then my amp is computerized as well.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 JJ


----------



## Benny-x

soundsgoodtome said:


> Good heads up @Benny-x, I ordered my fiber stuff last night during a soccer half time on my phone. I bought 2 mc210 on Amazon and a cable. When you say copper side tx, you're simply saying gigabit lan right?


 
 Kind of. Gigabit lan is a speed and a network type. For 99.9% of home users that means the normal looking ethernet cables that you find everywhere that look like bigger telephone line connectors. And because I'm too lazy to just get a picture and post it here, I hope that's good enough to understand. 
  
 Congrats on the purchase though   Make sure to share what you think of it in a couple weeks or whenever you get it hooked up.


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 21             Spikes, Overshoot, and Wonderful.*

 I’ve been playing with my 800’s for a while now and have tried a variety of ‘adjustments’ in various ways to ‘see what happens’ and to hear what the changes made, have yielded.
  
 Up until a while back I didn’t have access to acoustical measurement equipment.
 But most of what I didn’t have was results that were really significant enough to warrant the time and effort needed to pursue measurement results.
 Until recently.
  
 As some may know I have been a proponent of ‘hardwiring’ for quite some time.
 My SAA modded 800’s are hardwired and have been further tweaked with vibration management techniques.
 These changes were and remain significant to the extent that they were the impetus of my recent experiments and investigations.
 Which have been measured on the same equipment, which in turn yields a direct comparison of responses and behaviors from stock.
 IOW using the ‘stock’ measurements and being able to directly compare these 2 sets of measurements allows for certain ‘conclusions’ which can be formulated and then further tested to see if these changes are truly ‘Better’, or not.
  
 And even if, the ‘or not’ is the resounding result, there is Always something to be gained/learned/perceived within the measurements themselves.
  
 This post is about one of those “gained/learned/perceived” aspects, and what I’ve gleaned thus far.
  
 If you have ever studied the set of ‘stock’ HD800 measurements, especially the transient and distortion responses subset of the measurements (impulse, square wave, THD), you’ll see that there are some rather ‘unsavory’ indications of aberrant behavior.
 But there are also some indications of absolute wonderfulness.
 So this raised a question in my mind, is there a way of reducing the “‘unsavory’ indications of aberrant behavior” and at the very least maintain the wonderfulness and perchance actually improve it?
  
 And at this point I’m not too concerned with the freq response curves.
 Why?
 Well mostly with no exceptions I can think of, ALL headphones exhibit a  roller coaster ride of an EQ, and now with DSP EQ we have the means to begin to deal with it.
 IOW what we have been hearing ISN’T anywhere near FLAT, unlike what speakers can be.
 But these days with DSP based EQ this can now be addressed and is readily available for both speakers and headphones.
 Thus as long as we have a representative response curve from which to work it can be corrected and brought back into ‘flat’ or at least a MUCH closer approximation of flat than ever before.
  
 But to return to the primary subject, that being Spikes and Overshoot what I noticed when I first looked at the stock measurements were these…
  

 pic of stock 30hz square wave courtesy of Inner Fidelity
  
 Notice that initial overshoot spike on the leading edge?
 See how fast, and what its magnitude is?
  
 This to me says classic ringing/something is not properly damped enough, as in the entire mechanism is resonating (and at a fairly high frequency) when given an impulse signal (a square wave or single impulse, much like a fast transient).
  
 This spike is a direct source of *tLFF* all by itself.
 It also can act as a mask or as a source of inner detail veiling.
  
 So I tried ALL of the dampening mods I could find and they indeed helped in a variety of ways, not the least was a major reduction in *tLFF*.
 I made a set of Anax v.1 and v.1b and v.2 and wound up using shelf liner material with additional dampening over the driver clamp ring.
 It was quite nice, but by comparison a bit subdued and soft when dealing with quick dynamics.
  
 Then I went with the SAA cables and while they were being hardwired they also performed their modifications to the 800’s.
  
 Out came ALL of the dampening material, as did the clamp ring, and the 2) 28gauge interconnect wires to the drivers along with the connectors themselves.
 And there were other changes as well but these were the ones directly related to the electrical connection and those components that directly resonated in the plane of the driver.
  
 These changes were substantially better than any of the dampening mods I had fussed with and in ways I didn’t expect, and they were Wonderful.
  
 Wonderful enough to live with for quite a while.
 Until I managed to convince a local Head Fi’r to loan me his HD650’s (thanks Big Poppa!) while mine were being measured.
 Once the measurements came back I could then evaluate the differences between ’stock’ and my modded set of 800’s.
  
 And while some of the changes weren’t ‘Better’ some were pointed in the correct direction.
 So with these new insights into the measured behavior and performance I began analyzing what had changed.
  
 But what was interesting, at least for me, were the changes that these mods had made to the overall SQ and more pointedly what these changes made in terms of all of the aspects I use to help define what truly is ‘Better’.
  
 There truly was more there, there, and in ways that enhanced their scaleability to a remarkable degree and in ways I didn’t expect, nor suspect.
 Indeed most of all of this ‘Better’ series is based upon all of these scaleability factors which were further enhanced by the initial SAA mods.
  
 But now that I had some actual measurements I could target specific behaviors with further mods.
 Specifically the transient impulse responses as shown in the square wave and impulse measurements.
  
 So I further modified my 800’s to see if I could retain the improvements while improving other aspects of their responses.
  
 And since this is an ongoing series of experiments, and I haven’t even been able to try the next series of mods, thus my existing results are ‘mid stream’ so to speak.
  
 But the results I’m getting have reached what I call Gen-2 in terms of the overall acoustic net effect.
  
 JJ

*End Part 21              *
  
*Next up         Fuses and current draw*


----------



## Middy

Thanks JJ. The inner damping Mods for my Mr Speakers Ether was such a step change and produced what was explained would happen. Not many of us have the opportunity, requisite skill or tenacity to apply a subjectivist methodology. Never mind hard fact objective measurements up to someone like Tyll's mini anechoic chamber with his digital ear.
As BD says you shouldn't be an armchair quarterback but there are limits to what we are able to achieve without expert advice. Much like the UK now leaving Europe..Have listened to expert advice half by the passion of others conviction... Our political experiment may take a while to see if it worked....

Looking forward to the fuse article..
Synergistic research Black seem to be the new kings of the Hill in public preference. A greater insight into fuses will be much appreciated.
I hope the Ethernet trails are going well but I will have to wait for the titans figure out a slightly more wallet friendly solution...

Good luck
Dave


----------



## johnjen

There is a history of tweaking headphones which goes way back.
 I think it partially stems from the fact that HPs are small, and more or less much easier to take apart and fuss with.
 It tends to encourage experimentation, or at least seeing what happens, if…
  
 And one aspect that, at least for me anyways has a major influence in our attempts at 'Better' is, our degree of calibration.
  
 When you have heard what is possible and it 'stuck', then that degree of having an acoustic 'target' from which to compare, makes determining what is 'Better', or not, that much easier.
 Especially with headphones, since they are much more of a 'variable' in the whole system's chain of re-creating the acoustic experience.
  
 As for the next part dealing with fuses and such, it will serve as a bridge between previous topics and several subsequent parts that are planned.
 It's actually part of an ongoing examination and series of experiments I've been conducting for some time now.
  
 And this next part that will be dealing with fuses and current draw could be considered as an introduction of sorts, to a whole area of related issues.
  
 JJ
 ps I have yet to hear the SR Blacks, but I am using the SR Reds in my amp and dac and agree they are wonderful.


----------



## johnjen

So a status report on those speaker wires I added to my $40/75 speakers…
  
 Besides the increased coupling from these wires manifesting as improved acoustics which carry throughout the house, at lower volumes, there is a significant additional decrease in the apparent volume as well.
  
 As I stated earlier, the apparent difference in volume between the speakers and the headphones not only reversed, but initial the gap itself has since widened even further.
  
 This tells me that the change in the delivery of the electrical signal has resulted in less smearing while generating the acoustical power, thru time (i.e. dynamically).
 IOW, the electrical signal is more time and amplitude aligned with the original acoustical waveform itself.
 As such the energy is more 'focused', more is applied where it should be and less is being 'wasted' (smeared) where it 'doesn't belong'.
 It's less LOUD because the acoustic energy is more closely coupled to the signal that becomes music.
  
 Bottom line, as the apparent volume seems to drop (at the same *DRC* setting) that is usually the result of a more precise re-creation, and delivery of, the original acoustic power.
 I see this reduction of how LOUD the music seems to be, as an indication of '*Better*' all in and of itself.
 I guess I should call it,
*Moar is Less.*
  
 JJ
 ps @ ≈175hrs  RN3 has just taken a major step up, as in BLOSSOM Time, but not at the peak, yet


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> So a status report on those speaker wires I added to my $40/75 speakers…
> 
> Besides the increased coupling from these wires manifesting as improved acoustics which carry throughout the house, at lower volumes, there is a significant additional decrease in the apparent volume as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very Nice!


----------



## johnjen

Yeah it is!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And it doesn't matter what music I play, EVERYTHING has taken a step up in SQ.
  
 It's like I want to shift all of the star ratings up by one…
 Again…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I just got my kef speakers running with a 200w rms amp and my audio-gd headphone amp as a preamp, the r3 has been on for some time now and piping 24/96khz into my R2R dac. Man these 30yr old speakers have similar clarity as my planar headphones.

Absolutely in audio bliss. These 30yo reference speakers are AMAZING.


----------



## johnjen

That was one of the interesting aspects WRT the conventional wisdom about buying really good speakers and then build up the electronics…
  
 It would seem that any decent speaker will 'sing' when the signal being fed them is tweako.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Yeah it is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So would you say money well spent?
 That's how I feel with the RN3 and Mutec's!
 Absolutely no regrets. And glad that I took the risk without knowing what I'm getting into!


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> So would you say money well spent?
> That's how I feel with the RN3 and Mutec's!
> Absolutely no regrets. And glad that I took the risk without knowing what I'm getting into!


 
 I suspect the SQ level will continue to rise as it settles in, along with a few tweaks I plan to add.
  
 So at his point I'd say yes this is a step up and over my USB setup.
  
 What I await is to find out how much of a step up it will be.
  
 JJ


----------



## jelt2359

johnjen said:


> I suspect the SQ level will continue to rise as it settles in, along with a few tweaks I plan to add.
> 
> So at his point I'd say yes this is a step up and over my USB setup.
> 
> ...




Sorry, what was your USB setup? Microrendu?


----------



## johnjen

It's 2-Wyrd's with cooked USB cables.
 An AudioQuest Coffee, a Schiit PYST, and a 6" cheapy.
  
 JJ


----------



## jelt2359

johnjen said:


> It's 2-Wyrd's with cooked USB cables.
> An AudioQuest Coffee, a Schiit PYST, and a 6" cheapy.
> 
> JJ




Thanks!


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> So a status report on those speaker wires I added to my $40/75 speakers…
> 
> Besides the increased coupling from these wires manifesting as improved acoustics which carry throughout the house, at lower volumes, there is a significant additional decrease in the apparent volume as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 One quick question for you ... 
  
 Do you actually have your RN3 playing 24/192 content reliably using a source machine running OS X?
  
 I'm keen to compare the RedNet stuff to my Auralic, Linn and Sonore ethernet interfaces/bridges, but having just spent weeks screwing around fruitlessly trying to get double and quad rate DSD to work off OS X with Chord DACs, I'm not in the mood for further troubleshooting (maybe in a bit ... for now I just want something that can, like my existing interfaces, be configured and then just works).


----------



## johnjen

I am playing The Eagles Hotel California album in native 192K even as I type this, with nary a stutter or glitch.
 I'm on a quad Xeon 2.66GHz Mac Pro on 10.9.5 with EVERYTHING running (e-mail, browser, utilities, antivirus firewall etc. etc.) and MC21 and right now I'm running at ≈7% while typing this and listening and noting that the flow of data for the Danté network is 2.4MB/s, which is minuscule.
  
 Currently I've been down sampling what little of my 'hirez' music I own to 88.2K (sometimes to 96K) while also upsampling the 44.1K & 48K to these 2 mid range sample rates.
  
 When I get my RN-3 tweaked then I'll run the full panoply of tests to see if there is any advantage to one sample rate over any of the others, biased towards the 44.1K since that is the bulk of my collection.
 And I've found that ≈50% of my hirez files are not significantly better than the 44.1K files, although there are a few notable exceptions that are most impressive.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## jelt2359

I actually have very few high res too. But my yggy works best without any sampling of the original file, so that's unfortunate.


----------



## johnjen

jelt2359 said:


> I actually have very few high res too. But my yggy works best without any sampling of the original file, so that's unfortunate.


 
 I don't follow what you mean by "so that's unfortunate."
  
 ????
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

jelt2359 said:


> I actually have very few high res too. But my yggy works best without any *up*sampling of the original file, so that's unfortunate.


 
 I think this is what he meant?


----------



## jelt2359

johnjen said:


> I don't follow what you mean by "so that's unfortunate."
> 
> ????
> 
> JJ




Otherwise I'd take your approach as well!


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> I am playing The Eagles Hotel California album in native 192K even as I type this, with nary a stutter or glitch.
> I'm on a quad Xeon 2.66GHz Mac Pro on 10.9.5 with EVERYTHING running (e-mail, browser, utilities, antivirus firewall etc. etc.) and MC21 and right now I'm running at ≈7% while typing this and listening and noting that the flow of data for the Danté network is 2.4MB/s, which is minuscule.
> 
> Currently I've been down sampling what little of my 'hirez' music I own to 88.2K (sometimes to 96K) while also upsampling the 44.1K & 48K to these 2 mid range sample rates.
> ...


 
  
 Lovely, thanks!
  
 Orders placed ... looking forward to giving it a try and comparing to the Linn/Auralic/Sonore interfaces!


----------



## johnjen

jelt2359 said:


> Otherwise I'd take your approach as well!


 
 If I understand correctly…
 You can choose any sample rate to send over the Danté network.
  
 I can up or down sample to any rate I choose, based upon whatever the source file is.
  
 Thus I can down sample a 192KB file to 44.1KB or visa versa.
 Along with any other sample rate in between these 2, if I choose.
  
 Of course you will need a player to be able to accomplish this, because this sample rate conversion happens before the RedNet system gets it's hands on the data stream.
  
 However the RedNet-3 box can't handle the 176.4KB sample rate, while the other RedNet boxes can deal with all of the sample rates up to 192KB.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> Lovely, thanks!
> 
> Orders placed ... looking forward to giving it a try and comparing to the Linn/Auralic/Sonore interfaces!


 
 That will be interesting to hear what your evaluation of these ethernet based systems do for your system.
  
 And I ordered a Lifatec Toslink cable and compared it to the my existing USB 2-Wyrd setup.
 It was connected straight out of my Mac Pro to my PWD dac.
 I gotta say that it is a VERY well made cable.
  
 I found that the Toslink was 'Better' than just straight USB, but as soon as just a single Wyrd was added the scales tipped.
 Then when I added cooked cables and then added a 2nd Wyrd there was no contest, the Toslink fell further and further behind.
  
 And the RedNet system is continuing to pull ahead of my 2-Wyrd system.
  
 In fact I just added an ether–> fibre–> ether system and thus far the results are better still.
 I'll know more as this system settles in.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

One of my 'test' techniques is to play 3 star music, sometimes even the rolling stones, the early years.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Because when these 'mid grade' recordings (2-3 of 5 stars) start to sound great and like they really should be 4 star…
 THEN I know I'm headed in the right direction.
  
 Right now ZZ Top is sounding pretty decent.
 And after this I usually head towards _Overnight Sensation_ an early Frank Zappa work with amazing acoustic accompaniment.
 And how could I not mention such favorites as _Stink Foot_ and _I'm the Slime_ among many others.
  
 And that I have this entire album mezmorized, with full operational emphatic emphasis, is just the icing on the top…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Tonight is nearly a repeat of last nights *SuperGlue* episode.
  
 Last night I think I got a double dose in that I couldn't take my 800's off my head.
 It simply could not happen, well maybe between tracks when no music was playing, but it wasn't likely to happen even then (and didn't), the anticipation was to great…
  
 Like I posted elsewhere "Last night I gotta double dose of *SuperGlue*, the *tLFF* dropped to new all time lows, which led *Moar is Less* to new degrees heretofore never heard before."
 Only here I don't need to translate that…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 These new levels of sonic performance are just highlighting how much SQ can be lost because of a 'dirty digital data' path. 
  
 And tonight my *tLFF* isn't as low as last night but it is noteworthy that 2 nights in a row the SQ is simply stellar.
 RN3 has 375hrs, the fibre is 80hrs and the fuse is 35hrs
  
 JJ


----------



## atomicbob

mostly repeated from the AES67 thread but wanted to say this here as well:
  
 Having made so many changes recently I am going to get off the money-go-round, pause, and catch my breath. Listening fatigue is so low as to be non-existent at the moment. Sense of space, dimension, timing, transient event snap has improved enormously. It is time to enjoy the library. Many old musical favorites that weren't the best technical recordings are demonstrating a huge improvement. My current source system:
  
 JRMC with both Sonarworks compensation, Waves NX 3-D spatialization, some custom tweaks, and phase reverse
  
 VSC ASIO -> Ethernet -> RN J16 -> AES/EBU -> MC-3+ -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil
 VSC ASIO -> Ethernet -> RN J16 -> AES/EBU -> MC-3+ -> SPDIF -> Gungnir MB
  
 Silver Sonic Air Matrix for unbalanced RCA to Zana Deux or Liquid Crimson or Garage1217 PH-III with Acopian LPS
 Balanced XLR to V200
  
 Norne Draug 2 cables from amps to 4 pin XLR phase reverse to 4 pin XLR to HD650 or HD800.
  
 Some will disagree with my analogy, but to me the auditory improvement is similar to upgrading from a
 Nikon NIKKOR 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G kit lens - which is already very good at 55mm - to a
 Zeiss 55mm f/1.4 Otus Distagon T* Lens - Stunning visual improvement.
  
 It has been warm here lately so I have not been running the Zana Deux or Liquid Crimson but keeping the heat down with a Violectric V200 run balanced from the Yggdrasil. I don't remember the V200 sounding this good. Source chain matters. Still prefer ZD or LC over it, but the V200 is sounding very good indeed.
  
 Back to rediscovering more CDs in the library.
  
@Soundsgoodtome - the PH-III with LPS really shines with the RN -> MC-3+ GuMB source.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm glad you guys are finding the the new found transports a good addition to your rigs. It's almost like rediscovering your rig and music all over again really, I've been going through my library front to back since. My new to me speaker system also adds to the novelty I'm experiencing but the Rednet unit is at the core of this new found enjoyment I feel.

Bob, as much as I have enjoyed the liquid carbon I really need to hear that ph3/lps amp! I feel like everyone's heard it but myself haha.

Cheers gents - happy 4th!


----------



## somestranger26

johnjen said:


> So over on the XMOS thread a poster added a link to a 'universal' fuse code #'s and their meaning page.
> 
> Yeah it’s a 2 amp fuse…
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2550#post_12648693


 


> Originally Posted by *johnjen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Oh and while I was perusing the Focusrite site I ran across the listing of fuses used in all of their gear.
> The rated fuse for this device (RN3) is .25amp (240V) and .5amp (120V), which is about what I would expect for values, given the power usage.


 
 What is the verdict on this, 2A or 0.5A fuse? I installed a 2A in mine based on the fuse codes from that post. Should I get a 0.5A instead?


----------



## Muziqboy

somestranger26 said:


> What is the verdict on this, 2A or 0.5A fuse? I installed a 2A in mine based on the fuse codes from that post. Should I get a 0.5A instead?


 
  
 You're fine with 2amp as that is what is marked on the original fuse.


----------



## johnjen

atomicbob said:


> mostly repeated from the AES67 thread but wanted to say this here as well:
> 
> Having made so many changes recently I am going to get off the money-go-round, pause, and catch my breath. Listening fatigue is so low as to be non-existent at the moment. Sense of space, dimension, timing, transient event snap has improved enormously. It is time to enjoy the library. Many old musical favorites that weren't the best technical recordings are demonstrating a huge improvement. My current source system:
> 
> ...


 
 It’s a wise man who knows when to quit chasing that illusive 'What If This Might Be Better' merry-go-round, and just listen…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Yeah the use of a 2 amp slow blow fuse is probably one of the reasons for the heightened SQ.
  
 I'm still in the process of evaluating fuses and need to take it to the next level.
  
 The isoclean fuse has a slight glassy nature which becomes more pronounced when 'pushed'.
 This is heard when sibilants are apparent in the recording.
  
 Next up is either a SR Quantum or…
  
 And I have all of the parts now to make up my AES3 breakout cable.
 Right now I'm cooking the cables and making adapters and getting the system ready for using these new (to me) digital audio paths to my dac.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So right now I'm running a HiFi tuning gold fuse.
 It's ok, not great, but nothing 'sticks out', but then again it is missing some of the inner details that the previous 2 fuses had.
  
 BUT!!!!!
 I just built up a AES3 breakout cable using 2 different commercial grade 110Ω cables, (Mogami 3080 and Canare DA-202).
  
 The SPDIF cable is an Oyaide DR-510 cable that has lots of hrs on it which I borrowed from Curbfeeler (Thanks!)
 And I can easily and quickly switch from SPDIF to the AES3 inputs on my dac.
  
 Um, er, uhhhhh,
 The more hrs I put on even this commercial grade cable the wider the gap becomes between these 2 digital audio paths.
  
 And even before I donned my 800's I was hearing nuances and aspects on my $40 speakers that were new.
  
 Now with just a tad bit more time the AES3 cables are becoming even more compelling, involving, and  *SuperGlue* has been upgraded with 'New and Improved' and is now *SupperDuperGlue*.
  
 This is simply an amazing 'upgrade'.
 I'm hearing altogether new aspects of the music I'm very familiar with, again.
  
 And I still have the Audio grade 110Ω (Statement Silver) cable to finish cooking and wire up to a DB-25 connector, which I suspect will be yet another step up, again.
  
 If any of you are running a RedNet box and/or have an AES3 output to feed your dac, I HIGHLY recommend comparing it to SPDIF for yourself to experience the differences.
  
 I can hear why Mike Moffet prefers AES3 over any other digital audio format.
  
 And all of this '*Better*' thus far is based upon 3 star albums.
  
 VERY Interesting Times in Audio Indeed.
  
 JJ


----------



## Danutz

Hi,
  
 Could I try a normal XLR-cable instead of a 110ohm specified...?
  
 thanx


----------



## johnjen

Yes, an 'audio' balanced cable should work based upon how much digital traffic is being sent.
 And for just our audio needs (44.1 to 192KB) it should work, based upon the quality of the gear it will be plugged into.
  
 The thing is an AES3 cable is designed for Mhz and higher frequency response with a 'known' response curve.
 We are after all sending square waves at way above normal audio bandwidth frequencies (20Hz - 20KHz) which generate much higher harmonics.
  
 Which means if the audio balanced cable has hi frequency limitations (bandwidth limited) either by design or just due to low cost considerations (cheap wire) it may have some impact upon the SQ.
 What results those might be I can't say, since I have not tried it.
  
 And that would be another good test for me to undertake, once I get this new cable all dialed in, to try a 'regular' 3pin XLR cable instead of a 110Ω cable.
 But since I can't just plug a 'regular' balanced audio cable XLR-M & F into my rig, perhaps some one else might try this experiment, perhaps even you!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But it certainly won't hurt anything, electronically speaking.
 Just don't crank on the MOAR knob right away, just to be sure nothing weird happens.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 22             Fuses and current draw.*

 This topic has elements of several topics previously brought up, along with a few that will be followed up later with more details.
 So it can be looked at as a bridge of sorts between previous related topics and those yet to come.
 Because the underlying concept we are dealing with here is essentially the delivery of power which is converted into the musical signal for our ears.
  
 IOW the ac power from the wall socket that we connect to, is transformed into our acoustic experience by the gear we have chosen to use.
 And my experience has shown me that removing *CP’s* from this ac power distribution system does yield improvements in the overall SQ.
 I have been exploring, experimenting with many aspects of this for quite some time now and the results are cumulative and ‘*Better*’.

 It might be instructive to repeat my definition of a *CP* here,
_“This term refers to any portion of a system that limits the conversion from electrical power, to signal, to acoustic power in an audible way.”_
  
 And it took several attempts to modify my ac power distribution system before I actually was rewarded with ‘*Better*’.  
 And I later learned about reaching that threshold where a major *CP* was ‘fixed’, enough, so that subsequent experiments, where changes of any kind were able to be heard, at all, so that I was even able to tell if they were truly ‘*Better*’, or not.
  
 It stared out by trying several ac duplex receptacles, from cheap (but new) ¢99 hardware store ones to contractor grade, to hospital grade, to ‘hi-end’ name brand commercial units, such as Hubbell etc.
 None of these made ANY difference, at all.
 Then in my research I stumbled upon a source of a top of the line Hubbell receptacle that had been cryo treated and cooked on an industrial strength Audio Dharma cable cooker.
  
 WOOOO, immediate, obvious, undeniably, ‘*BETTER*’,
 in every way and in no uncertain terms.
 This then led to exploring ac power cables where I wound up making a set of Bottlehead ac power cable ‘kits’.
 And again ‘*Better*’.
 Then I started fussing with using better materials, all copper UL rated wire and Chinese knock off (2nd’s) connectors.
 Again ‘*Better*’.
  
 Then I cryo treated these hot rodded cables and cooked them on the Audio Dharma cooker.
 And again ‘*Better*’, every step of the way and in every instance.
  
 Then I went to a headfi meet and learned that fuses were something to try to see if they too were ‘*Better*’.
 So I ordered up replacement fuses (synergistic quantum) for my PWD, which already had upgraded fuses (they had gold end caps) and for my Schiit Mojo amp.
 Again ‘*Better*’.
  
 And by ‘*Better*’ I use my repurposed terms that describe improvements in sonic aspects as detailed in my previous posts, to determine what is ‘*Better*’.
 And each time I made a change I piled on the hours and kept track of the changes and how much time they took to fully settle in.
 And about this time I also started playing with WAQy chips.
 First the fuse chips,
 ‘*Better*’.
 Then the cable chips,
 ‘*Better*’
 Then transformer chips,
 ‘*Better*’
 Then I soldered the romex splices together.
 and MOAR ‘*Better*’…
  
 And ALL of this was aimed at the ac power distribution dedicated branch circuit, straight from my panel to feed only my audio system (amp and dac), all of a whopping ≈75 watts.
  
 Every time I removed *CP’s*, the SQ improved and this was only dealing with the power feed (hardware store romex cable) to these 2 devices and the cryo treated Hubbell duplex receptacles.
 Then I added my DIY power cables, the quantum fuses and adding WAQY chips to the fuses, cables, and power transformer(s).
 But every step of the way it got ‘*Better*’.
  
 This was as far as I went.
 Sometimes the changes were really ‘BETTER’, sometimes just ‘Better’ and some were only ’better’.
  
 But the cumulative effect was ‘Better’ and then ‘BETTER’, and then ‘*BETTER*’ and then ‘_*BETTER*_’ as more and more CP’s were fixed, removed, or ameliorated in one way or another.
  
 And again this is ONLY dealing with the ac power being supplied to these 2 units all the way up to the power transformer in the units themselves.
  
 IOW all I was doing was seeing if removing *CP’s* from the power being fed to my system would have beneficial results, and the SQ kept getting “*Better*’.
  
 But I had to bust thru that initial *CP* barrier of my spec grade duplex receptacle, FIRST.
  
 This entire chain of experiments is still ongoing in that my curiosity is now aimed at WHY…
 Why can such a small amount of current draw be so effected by a chain of such seemingly small changes to the power distribution system and be so beneficial.
 This has led me to investigating the actual current draw that occurs inside the primary and secondary’s of the transformers and how that feeds the diode bridge(s).
  
 And from a ’standard’ electrical POV all of this should have been worked out long ago.
 Except these questions remain, why do these changes make ANY difference to the SQ, AT ALL?
  
 I aim to continue to pursue this investigation, because something just doesn’t add up here.
 And now that I have a ‘decent’ scope all that is missing is a specific type of probe to be able to observe and measure the voltage and current flow being fed by my dedicated AC branch circuit.
  
 So it isn’t just fuses that I’ve fussed with but the entire AC supply from the panel thru to the transformers, and fuses are by far the easiest to experiment with and perhaps if others notice an improvement, they too might explore other aspects of this often ignored or neglected aspect of our playback systems.

 JJ
  
*End Part 22              Next up         ASCC*


----------



## Middy

Lol I just spent half an hour on CA on a fuse thread post... 
My simple thinking JJ is not the electrical evidence of change. But sound output change. I am not taking anything away from your on going excellent papers in experiments.
My thoughts to remove doubt, are taking away the human bias of listening and prove the sound change is different.
The old 'pick your flavour in distortion'..... 
I value you opinion very much even though human language cannot express in one for one emotion.
But a sensitive mic and change to out putted sound. ??

If synergistic took their untreated fuse and replaced in a rig show there is change then there is no more arguments of snake oil magic.

But does it give as you have shown, an added pleasurable positive change ?...

I sincerely hope I haven't insulted or taken anything away from this set of experimenting. 

Keep up the good work as aways and keep making me think

Kind regards
Dave


----------



## johnjen

When I was performing these experiments my determination of *'Better'* is based upon sonic improvements, not electrical ones.
 I don't have anywhere near enough instrumentation to even begin to try to capture electrical changes with sufficient sensitivity so as to be able to make that sort of determination.
  
 And I doubt while only using simplistic electrical measurements (sine, square, impulse waves), any determination of change would even be observable.
 And using more complex signals (music) would be even more difficult to capture such changes using instrumentation.
  
 So I rely upon my calibrated sense of hearing, which in the final analysis is really the only one that truly matters anyway.
  
 JJ
 ps no offense taken, I figure we're all trying to learn and come to understand the what's and why's and wherefore's of all of this and then apply this understanding as best we can.


----------



## Middy

Thank you... Keep up the good work JJ


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## johnjen

RedNet 3 status report.
 At ≈ 589hrs on the RN3 and 115hrs on the Silver AES3 cable, the SQ is beginning to peak again, which coincides with a ≈125hr peak that commonly happens.
  
 This is taking *Spooky/Scary* to whole new levels of whooooow…
  
 I need to let it sharpen up its focus a bit more yet, but these latest tweaks are beyond mere *SuperGlue* because now there is *SuperDuperGlue.*
  
 I thought I had articulate and deep and powerful bass before.
 The concussive effects of cannons/guns is most impressive, as is thunder and organ pedal notes.
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*My take on Cable Cooking*
  
And how it seems to work and what is ‘*Better*’ about using this process.
  
 Recently, in another thread I mentioned, repeatedly, about the benefits of cooking USB cables and subsequently there were a few incredulous expressions of surprise…
  
 So I figure I’ll present this overview of what I’ve learned, over the past few years, while using ‘cooked cables’.
  
 What this Audio Dharma Cable Cooker does is throw current at the wires, and in enough quantity to ‘saturate’ the entire cable, in a sustained and continuously variable way, in order to ‘condition’ the conductors and non-conductors as well.
  
 And in my research, the non-conductor(s) are as important, perhaps even more so, than the conductor(s), as strange as that may sound.
 And since these cookers ‘condition’ both, and for a sufficient duration (10’s of hours), the entire cable is effectively ‘conditioned’.
  
 Now let me give you my take on what ‘conditioning’ means.
  
 What this device does is throw a swept square wave signal from 0Hz up to 40KHz (plus the full range of upper harmonics that square waves generate), back and forth at a set current, independent of the ‘load’ that the wires present.
  
 What these signals are doing at these ‘elevated’ currents (120mA for signal wires & 1.88 Amps for speaker and ac power cables etc.) is essentially scrambling the 2 types of conductors, but especially the non-conductor, the dielectric material.
 And by scrambling I mean erasing whatever their intrinsic electromagnetic and electrostatic nature is.
  
 And this ties into my comments about break-in where the materials now performing their respective tasks are doing so for the first time after being assembled.
 As such they are ‘acclimating’ to the sum total of the new electrical environment, that they were designed to operate in.
 And these cookers accelerate and expand this acclimation process by using greater amounts of voltage and current than would normally be present on these cables
  
 So in one case we have an analog signal with varying voltage and current flowing thru wires and in relatively small amounts, that can be rather dynamic in terms of voltage swings and involving complex harmonic patterns of both voltage and current.
 And in another case we have a ‘fixed’ ac voltage with a non-regular pattern for current flow.
 And these voltages and currents are establishing the ‘normal’ ranges of the amounts of the electrostatic and electromagnetic fields that these cables will be carrying while we use them in our systems.
  
 So I figure these cookers are performing a master ‘reset’ of the voltage and current carrying properties of the cables.
  
 Now I say this because I have experienced my cables, and multiples of them, both before and after being cooked and WAY later as well…
 And thus far there hasn’t been a cable that doesn’t perform ‘*Better*’ after being cooked.
 A bold statement perhaps, but it is what I have observed.
 And I’m not the only one who has come to this understanding.
  
 In fact I wouldn’t have purchased the Shunyata cables if I hadn’t cooked them first.
 Because while my modded ‘kit cables’ didn’t have the same degree of focus, they did allow the very bottom end to come thru.
 And only after cooking did these $$$$ cables perform ‘*Better*’ than my DIY’r special cables, in every way.
  
 And yeah there are a couple of draw backs, to cooking cables, which are…
 The cables loose their ‘magic’ after about a year and revert back to acting like normal cables again.
 This of course simply won’t do, so all the cables need to be re-cooked, and on a regular basis to re-charge the invisible quantum invariant pixie dust, so tunes stay tweaked.  
 And 2, these cookers are spendy, like $1K for this industrial strength version.
 And the cables still need to go thru break-in after being cooked.
  
 So as far as the effectiveness of cooking cable goes, I find this process indispensable, that is if you are in pursuit of finding out just how far a set of 800’s can truly scale.
  
 Is this going to an extreme?
 Well I suppose so, but until you have experienced what cooked cables will do, well words will never fully convey what the net effect truly is.
  
 But I can say that when the cables revert back to ‘stock’ condition, the realization can be somewhat ‘stark’ to say the least, as in the SQ goes flat and looses much of the dynamics and the very bottom end drys up and becomes a distant memory…
  
 And to that end, if there are a few who’d like to experiment further, PM me and perhaps we can work out a way I can cook a cable or 2… for you to try.

 JJ


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## Middy

Does it pass the wife test...and is she glad you can cook...

Thanks JJ


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## johnjen

Most would just see it as yet another 'box' with wires so under 'standard' domesticity rules it should be 'hidden'.
  
 I'm fortunate enough to not live by the 'standard' rules.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I do make a mean dish of West Seattle Soul Food, besides tasty cables…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


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## Middy

Lol... Creole Cable cooking courses...
Atlantas Gordon Ramsay of sound....

You ain't tasted good sound until you have been to JJ's...

Keep smiling 
Dave


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## johnjen

Last night was a 1st.
  
 I was listening to tunes and right in the middle of a chord the SQ shifted.
 It was oh so obvious, and I've never had that happen before.
 Usually it’s a more gradual transition where I notice the SQ shifting and blossoming over a matter of minutes.
  
 But last night it was a unique, 'sudden' and attention getting event, the likes of which I've never experienced before.
 I figure it was due to the SRQ fuse and the AS Silver AES3 cable both coming into sharper focus, at the same time.
  
 What shifted was the entire soundstage, it just 'snapped' into sharper focus, all of the *'Voices'* became more differentiated from each other, and the acoustic energy was more focused as coming from each *'Voice'* as well, which resulted in the entire acoustic presentation becoming more 'real'.
 Put another way *C3* and *I5* and *HB&W* and *T3* and *S/S* and *tLFF* all improved, simultaneously.
  
 But the best part is these changes are still evident (they're sticking around) and are continuing to morph.
 And my 3 star music needs to be bumped to 4 star, again.
  
 JJ
 ps I'm gunna add a list of all of the words I've re-tasked in the first post, just as a reference.
 I figured it might come in handy upon occasion.


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## Torq

johnjen said:


> Last night was a 1st.
> 
> I was listening to tunes and right in the middle of a chord the SQ shifted.
> It was oh so obvious, and I've never had that happen before.
> ...


 

 Alright ... alllllriiight ... (now then ... noooow then ....) ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sorry, channeling a bit of Monty Python there ... it happens ... 
  
 So what's this "SRQ fuse" (I get the audiophile fuse thing, just don't get a useful result googling this one) and where do you have it installed?  Is it in your RedNet 3?  Mines still in its box, so I don't know if it has an accessible fuse or not.  And this is not an area I've had much luck (switching fuses), but since I'm going to be listening to this stuff at length here shortly, I'm game to have another go at it ...


----------



## johnjen

Yeah I added a Synergistic Research Quantum fuse, not even a Red nor a Black (the latest and greatest versions) to the RedNet3.
 It sits inside on the SMPS board under a plastic 'enclosure'.
  
 The stock fuse is a 5x20mm, 2 amp slowblow.
  
 And the thing is fuses may take several hours to 'settle in' and these do seem to be polarized (directional), so if the SQ doesn't start to improve after ≈ 2hrs of use then reverse it and listen again.
  
 One way will be *'Better'*.
  
 JJ


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> Yeah I added a Synergistic Research Quantum fuse, not even a Red nor a Black (the latest and greatest versions) to the RedNet3.
> It sits inside on the SMPS board under a plastic 'enclosure'.
> 
> The stock fuse is a 5x20mm, 2 amp slowblow.
> ...


 

 Aha!  That makes sense of the "SRQ" acronym then!  (No doubt obvious to those that routinely dabble in such things).
  
 I'll have to give it a go once I get my RedNet 3 out of it's box, configured, and working.  This might be delayed further but the imminent arrival (aka later today) of the penultimate round of upgrades to my speaker system, but we shall see!
  
 Looking forward to seeing where you settle (at least for a while) with tweaks to your AOIP setup!


----------



## johnjen

Oh and I should add that the Silver Statement AES cable has 260hrs and the fuse has 80hrs.
  
 Swapping out the fuse is no big deal, especially with your 'hands on' skill sets.
 And I figure if someone REALLY wants to decode any of 'our' abbreviations they'll ask.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And we all so love to use them as often as possible,
 It seems. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And my list of tweaks is fairly short and I'm almost ready to try the final experiment, after which the tweaks will be complete, well at least for now…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


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## Danutz

thought you have been on 589hrs on the RN3...!?


----------



## johnjen

Oooops, your right!
  
 That 260hrs is the AS Statement Silver AES cable
  
 Lemme fix that…
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 23-A             ASCC test results, Wait, What?*

 As I stated in Part 22, this topic is somewhat dependent upon what I mentioned about fuses and current flow.
 And *ASCC* is ALL about current flow.
  
 So what is *ASCC*?
 It stands for Available Short Circuit Current.
  
 Available Short Circuit Current is an electricians proof of performance test of the ‘health’ of electrical power systems. It seems to be used mostly with branch circuits found in commercial buildings and homes.  And it’s mostly used as a diagnostic tool to determine if there are any ‘problems’ in a branch circuit and can be used to troubleshoot where the problems may be found.
  
 This test essentially calculates the ability of the circuit under test, to deliver near instantaneous amounts of current during a hot-neutral ‘dead short’ (aka. “bolted fault”).  
*ASCC* test results are calculated by dividing the line voltage by the circuit’s line impedance, (by adding the Ω of the hot + neutral wires together).
 This test is useful in that it determines how much power the selected branch circuit can deliver, but doing so without even the possibility of tripping the circuit breaker.
  
 Note: a circuit breaker trips, not by over heating then melting a wire like a fuse does, but by building enough magnetic energy in a coil to ‘trip’ its internal ‘breaker switch’.  This process takes more time and energy than a fuse and so behaves differently.  And one of these behavioral differences is the ability of a breaker to pass large amounts of current, for a short duration.  This salient fact is of interest to us because of this ability to deliver short duration high amplitude current bursts, without tripping (circuit breaker) or self destructing (fuse), and this behavior specifically matches the needs of our diode bridge switched power supplies quite well.
  
 But for our uses, *ASCC* tests will tell us how much current can be dumped into the power supply, VERY quickly, like in mS, before that coil in the circuit breaker trips.
 This ability to dump current quickly becomes much more significant when we delve into fuses and how they respond to current and also what criteria the manufacturers use to rate their fuses.
 This amount of current flow is the ‘raw’ power that the duplex receptacle we are plugged into can deliver when asked for.
 So the question then becomes how much current can be ‘delivered’ in a very minuscule amount of time, coincident with the question of how much is ‘enough’?  And is moar always better?
  
 So the next series of related experiments were aimed at generating further data.
 Namely, how much current is available at the duplex receptacle we plug our gear into?
 And
 Can a power cable alone make any measurable difference?
 And
 Does the amount of available current have any correlation with the SQ of our systems?
  
 Note: I originally saw this test performed by Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research in one of their online videos.  I then researched the tool he used and found a less expensive and readily available tester to use for my experiments.
  
 And since I have been tweaking/modifying my dedicated branch circuit that feeds my audio system, it was easy to also measure the ‘standard’ branch circuits in my house to see what, if any, differences could be found with them as well.
  
 And as I continued to generate test results, a pattern emerged from the data, as I dove into the deep end of this pool while using the EXTECH CT-70 Circuit Analyzer to perform the ASCC and other relevant tests. And I performed multiple tests over many days as a means of verifying the readings.  
  
 The comparison between my house’s built in power distribution vs. the dedicated lines I added (computer & audio), did reveal differences between these different branch circuits.  And then there is the progression of the measurements starting with the standard appliance cord (*AppCord* see below), and my DIY G-1 & G-4 cables and and also my Shunyata (Python & A-D) and Marigo cables, and a cable I used as a reference.  
  
  

  
  
 So this is but the first of several such data extractions from all of the data I collected.  And the thing is since I couldn’t get this Analyzer calibrated I must assume that the absolute values of these test result numbers are suspect and the rated 2.5% +0.2% accuracy as listed by EXTECH is ‘close’ enough.  And really all I am expecting to see are trends and ∆ change comparisons.
  
 The layout I came up with displays all of the data I collected under the conditions as listed.  
 This first graphic is a ‘narrow view’ of just 2 locations in my house, the *bathroom CFGI* receptacle and a standard duplex receptacle in the wall in the living room.
  
 I’ll start by filling in much of the significance and meaning behind this layout and add more later as we drill further down into all of this.
  
 So starting in the upper left hand corner is *Cable #* and then as we move right in that row we see *REF cable* (twice).
         Note: *REF cable* means the supplied by EXTECH 14gauge *Stubby* (12”) appliance type cable.  This is a good choice because it’s short and 14gauge.  These 2 factors will be more relevant later.
  
 Then next we have, (as we move down the left side one row)
*Cable Name* and in that row we see
*Stubby - 14g, G-4-r - 13g, and AppCord - 18g.*
 These are the 3 cables I used during testing at these 2 initial locations (see next row description).
 The *Stubby* has been explained above and the *AppCord* is a standard appliance power cable that comes with our gear.  
 But the *G-4-r* is my DIY 4th generation cable with rhodium connectors that has been cryo treated and cooked.
  
 Next row down is,
*Location all equipment was running* which shows 2 locations,
*bathroom CFGI* and *Standard duplex recept post & pilr rev pol.*
 The *bathroom CFGI* is self explanatory but the “*Standard duplex recept post & pillar rev pol*” means a standard in the wall duplex receptacle being fed by post and pillar wiring that is reversed polarized (hot - neutral reversed and has no ground connection).

 And these tests were made with a normal household electrical load running my computer and audio system etc., (nothing was shut down to ‘help’ the readings).
 And this condition of running with the normal electrical load while making these tests applies to all of the measurements I took.
  
 Next row down is where we start listing test results, starting with,
*Voltage tests*        * L-N* (line to neutral) voltage measurement
 units in *AC Volts*    *N-G* (neutral to ground) this should be at or near 0.3 volts, the minimum resolution
                              *Peak* (not rms voltage)   
                              
 Then we have,
*Voltage Drop*     *12a*    These readings are indications of this circuits performance where a 5% or greater
 units in *% *           *15a*    drop in voltage during the test is considered ‘poor’, and where the Analyzer ‘loads’
                             *20a*    the circuit with 3 levels of current ‘demand’.     
 Next is,
*Impedance*         *Z-L* (Hot Ω)        These are calculated resistance readings that are a
 units in* Z-Ω*         *Z-N* (Neutral Ω)    reflection of the amount of resistance that each of these 3
                             *Z-G* (Ground Ω)    wires have.
  
 And finally the whole enchilada,
*Kilo-Amps*            *ASCC*        These are calculated results showing how much current is                         
                                                  available based upon the *ASCC* test procedure.
  
 Now what does any of this mean you ask?
 Well a more complete analysis, let alone any conclusions, will follow, in Part 23-B thru E of this ‘Better’ series.
  
 But for now lets just say that the post and pillar wiring in my house is ‘poor’ and so the ‘need’ for dedicated runs to power my computer and my audio system was sorely needed.
 And this is a good place to start and establish a baseline set of readings to use to compare with other tests.

 JJ
  
  
*End Part 23-A              *
  
*Next up         Part 23-B   Deeper down the rabbit hole we go*


----------



## prot

johnjen said:


> When I was reading thru a thread it was mentioned that the ethernet cables should be as short as possible.
> Or at least one of them should be, etc.
> 
> Do you remember those details?
> ...




Both eth cables gotta be exactly 23cm long. You've been warned!


----------



## johnjen

prot said:


> Both eth cables gotta be exactly 23cm long. You've been warned!


 
 OMG…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 What will happen if only one of them is 24cm???
  
 Will it form a quantum singularity and suck all of my music into a black hole?
  
 Oh the horror…   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## prot

Nope .. but the holy ground quantum loop just might


----------



## johnjen

prot said:


> Nope .. but the holy ground quantum loop just might


 
 A "holy ground quantum loop"…
  
 Wouldn't that just lead to inexhaustible quantum energy caught forever in an unbalanced loop?
  
 I sense a get rich quick scheme buried in here somewhere…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 30, 2022)

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?*
*or*
*It’s all in our heads, or is it?*

*Part 23-B              *

*ASCC test results, Deeper down the rabbit hole we go.*


 So we left off with a description of the type of data, along with the particulars of where and how we collected it from those 2 ‘standard’ ac power receptacles in my house.
 Here is that graphic again.

 pic #1 ExP&P+.jpg


 And now I’ll add some meaning and analysis to this data.
 But first as you look at the graphic there are the 3 rows showing *Out of Range* which is due to the fact that this branch circuit (using post and pillar wiring) is wired backwards and is not grounded, so the Analyzer flags these tests as *Out of Range* meaning, ‘nothing to see here folks move along…’

  And so next we’ll look at the test data, starting at the bottom with the ASCC results.

 You’ll notice that these numbers are higher than what a ‘standard’ 20 amp branch circuit should deliver, even the lowest numbers are 0.26 kAmps (260 amps) and extend up to 0.42 (420 amps).
 And that there are 2 numbers for each cable being tested separated by a “/“.
 This shows us the difference between when the ground wire is added into the “Bolted Short” where all 3 wires L & N & G are all shorted together or where only the L & N are involved.
 And as you might guess a larger number usually results when the ground is added into the mix.
 But you’ll also notice that since there is no ground at the post and pillar fed duplex receptacle the 2nd number (after the /) isn’t much different.

 Also you’ll notice that as the wire gauge gets more beefy, and shorter, the ASCC the test results improve.
 This is also reflected in the Impedance readings (with one exception).
 You’ll see that as the Z-L numbers drop the ASCC numbers climb as do the Z-N numbers (except for the AppCord).

 The voltage drop numbers also improve as the wire gauge gets bigger and the length gets shorter (Stubby) as well.
 And you’ll see that as the current demand increase (from 12 amp to 20 amp) the % of loss increases for each cable as well.

 And really these results shouldn’t be any surprise, since most know that as the wire size gets bigger and the wire lemgth shortens, both result in ‘Better’, ie. greater peak current capacity.
 IOW well D’Uh!
 Only now we have some #’s to back up these generally held beliefs.

 Bottom line is the wiring in my house is ‘poor’ since all of these tests tell us that there is greater than 5% loss regardless of cable or current demand.

 And another aspect to be aware of here is that this is a 20 amp service, meaning the circuit breaker is designed to trip with a 20 amp load, yet we are seeing up to 420 amps as an ASCC measurement.

 What does this mean?
 It relates directly back to that coil that trips the breaker switch will allow much greater amounts of current to flow, _*For A Very Short Duration*_.
 This topic will become more relevant as we continue.

 And up next is another graphic of a data set that looks at my dedicated computer power feed using the very same 3 cables.

 JJ


*End Part 23-B      *

*Next up         Part 23-C   Whooa A Change Up*


----------



## johnjen

Just a note…
  
 I just added a list of all the re-purposed terms I've been writing about to the 1st post (at the end).
 And I'll add links to their respective posts in due course.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So a progress report on the RN-3 and associated gear.
 Statement Silver cable ≈ 430hrs  fuse ≈ 250hrs
  
 On the 22nd the SQ took a nose dive into the toilet (aka Toilet Dump).
 And tonight it is rebounding back with a vengeance and I'm glad because I was figuring it would be for a few more days before the SQ would start to blossom, again.
  
 And it's interesting in that this TD episode is revealing just how much of an improvement these RedNet boxes really do make.
 I mean even when the soundstage went 2d and the bass dried up, my head was still *HB&W* and *T3* was still moving my happy feet.
 AND I could discern that the improvement these ethernet boxes are making takes the 3d aspect of each *'Voice'* into a truly tightly 3d shape defined area of the soundstage from where it emerges.
 IOW there is a front, back, top, and bottom along with a distinct 'shape' of the *'Voice'* in space depending upon the nature of the *'Voice'* itself.
  
 For example a piano has a broad 'spread', an electric guitar a much more dense placement, a drum set has location specific sources based upon what is being whacked (toms, snares, cymbals etc.) and the 'spread' of organic *'Voices*' (singers) changes shape, which reflects their position and orientation WRT to the mic they are singing into.
  
 These are but a few examples of the resolution and the degree of focus that these RedNet boxes are capable of delivering.
  
 JJ


----------



## landroni

johnjen said:


> But for now lets just say that the post and pillar wiring in my house is ‘poor’ and so the ‘need’ for dedicated runs to power my computer and my audio system was sorely needed.


 
 How do you fix 'poor' wiring in a random house? I'm curious how one goes about setting the dedicated runs to power audio equipment, as right now I'm not quite sure how it would go...


----------



## Middy

One small thing I did more to fix a tripping issue was clean up and re screw the terminal wires on the ring.
Not the same as a dedicated line to the fuse board. . But it helped....
Just tell the wife so she doesn't turn it back on when your are sanding wires....and terminal blocks ..


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> One small thing I did more to fix a tripping issue was clean up and re screw the terminal wires on the ring.
> Not the same as a dedicated line to the fuse board. . But it helped....
> Just tell the wife so she doesn't turn it back on when your are sanding wires....and terminal blocks ..


 
 One of the 'tricks' in tweaking the power distribution in any house is to check ALL of the breakers for tightness of the wire clamp screw.
 And while doing so pull the wire out and check for 'damage' (darkened due to heat, or corrosion etc.).
  
 This should ONLY be done IF you KNOW what you are doing, since you are working with live circuits which can do BAD things if not done safely.
  
 And a procedure that is recommended by electricians is to trip each breaker and reset it on a yearly basis.
 This also applies to the main breakers that feed the entire panel.
  
 This of course will kill all the power for that panel (the whole house etc.) so clocks and always on loads will need to be reset.
 Also it’s a good idea to power down all electrical loads (computers, TV's etc.) before tripping any of the breakers.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Yes of course a safety first safety last...mine was a corroded junction into an extension.
I had a friend check my work with his tester..
Major work a certified electrical contractor. I just don't know where to run a line yet so I can't tell my electrican...

Sorry for not mentioning the obvious safety implications...


----------



## johnjen

landroni said:


> How do you fix 'poor' wiring in a random house? I'm curious how one goes about setting the dedicated runs to power audio equipment, as right now I'm not quite sure how it would go...


 
 There are a great many variables involved in answering these questions and a fair amount of experience needed in order to actually fix 'poor' wiring.
  
 In my house 'fixing' the P&P wiring really isn't an option, at least not unless I want to rewire particular (or all of the) branch circuits.  This usually involves an electrician and $$$$.
  
 But if you have sufficient hands on experience, adding another branch circuit usually isn't a big deal, provided there is sufficient access, everywhere.
  
 In my case I just ran a piece of romex from my main panel to the location where I needed it.
 And later I extended it to my current location and then re-terminated it.
  
 In more complex living situations (apartments, etc.) where sufficient access is not readily available or where there are other factors (domesticity comes into play) then it becomes more complex, and costly.
  
 But there are a few tricks that can be applied even if a re-wire job is unlikely.
 One is to make sure that ALL of the splice points in the branch circuit being used for powering the audio system are in good shape and are 'healthy'.
 This means mapping out all of the duplex receptacles that are on the same branch circuit, and making sure they are not damaged, worn out and have the screws tightly clamping the wires.
 In some cases moving the audio system closer to the main panel will greatly help as will be seen in the next few posts dealing with my ASCC findings.
  
 But generally just making sure the electrical service for the entire house, and especially the branch circuit used for the audio system is 'up to snuff' will yield beneficial results.
  
 And I even went as far as soldering the romex wires together at my *1st Splice* (more info in the next ASCC post) for the extension of my dedicated branch circuit that feeds my audio system.
 This may seem a little 'out there' but the results were definitely *'Better'* as the SQ took yet another step up.
  
 Like I indicated, an answer is very much situationally dependent and based upon how much of a 'need' there is to improve the electrical service that feeds our audio systems.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Yes of course a safety first safety last...mine was a corroded junction into an extension.
> I had a friend check my work with his tester..
> Major work a certified electrical contractor. I just don't know where to run a line yet so I can't tell my electrican...
> 
> Sorry for not mentioning the obvious safety implications...


 
 Oh and for fuse panels (instead of breaker panels) if ANY of the panel runs warm or hot then it is a point of 'high' resistance and will act as a *CP* and will limit the ability to dump current in large(r) amounts.
 In some cases this can lead to house fires where the heat builds up enough to combust the surrounding materials (definitely NOT a good thing).
  
 I prefer to use Scotch Brite instead of sand paper to clean up the threads of both the fuses and their respective sockets, and use contact enhancer ProGold etc.
  
 And if the mating surfaces are really bad (corroded or have turned dark due to heating) replace these 'worn out' components.
  
 In some cases you can even measure where the voltage sag is reduced and sometimes by significant amounts, by cleaning up the mating surfaces, or re-terminating the wires where that are clamped down.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Thanks for the advice JJ

Keep smiling
Dave


----------



## johnjen

I was listening to the Grand Canyon suite, the Telarc version with 'REAL' claps of thunder and lightning strikes.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And all I could do was to break out in laughter, especially when the lightning strike was, oh say 100 (or less) yds away, and then when the reverberations took over…
  
 MOST impressive, I must say.
  
 There was no, even hint, of system breakup or clipping or strain as the impact hit and then as the acoustic energy spread out and away.
  
 This is a first for this level of ease of delivering such dynamics and acoustic power, at least for me.
 And like I mentioned earlier, cannon shots, muskets, shotguns, any and all manner of explosive percussive acoustic energy reconstructions are simply effortless.
  
 And I figure an analog system (a rock in a groove) would have some difficulty with this degree of a 'change of state' involving such dynamic, fast, high energy, low frequency, signal without some form of mistracking, overload, or something…
  
 And certainly it would be way more $$$$$$+
  
 Yeah I'm digg'n this RN-3 and what it's bring'n to the Parhté…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ
 ps right now 3-4 star tracks are kick'n…


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 23-C             ASCC test results, Whooa A Change Up*
  
 The next ‘location’ we’ll look at shows the test results of my dedicated ‘extension cord’ that feeds my computer and its peripherals.
 This cable is made up from a heavy duty stranded 14gauge wire, industrial rubber jacketed power cord that I re-purposed as a separate branch circuit.
  
 It’s approximately 30-40’ long with 2) standard (aka contractor grade) duplex receptacles in a 4 square box.
 It ain’t pretty but it gets the job done.
 And it measures much better than the post and pillar wired, in wall receptacles.
  
 #2 ExCompCbl+.jpg

  
 The aspects of interest and significance are that everything has improved by a factor of ≈ 2 (or better).
 The Voltage Drop % numbers are roughly 1/2 of the numbers from the bathroom CGFI (which are the best set of numbers from test #1).
  
 And this applies to the *ASCC* numbers where now we’re seeing 0.73 KAmps (730 amps), up from 420amps.
  
 What doesn’t make much sense is how the Ω readings are jumping around, but that may be due to he fact that the computer was running while taking these readings.
 But even so they are significantly reduced from the previous set of data.
  
 It’s also interesting that the only voltage drop that exceeds 5%, (poor performance) is the *AppCord* trying to pull a 20amp load.
 So here is that Change Up I mentioned above.  It’s the 3rd location that I took readings from.
 It, as you can see, shows a large jump in all measured results.
 And I’d be using this source to power my system, except it is 15’ away from where my gear sits…
 But I’m saving those results for last which are coming up next in *Part 23-D*.
  
 This next set of data is taken at the ‘location’ I call the *1st splice*.
 This run of romex is the 1st leg of the dedicated run that feeds my audio system.
 The run is ≈ 20’ long and is a more or less straight shot from the circuit breaker panel.
 And at this location I have added another ≈15’ of romex to reach the end of this branch circuit where my audio system is plugged in.
  
 This *1st splice* location has a tweako Hubbell duplex receptacle that has been cryo treated and cooked, which probably helps this location attain such high *ASCC* numbers
  
 #3 Ex1st Splice+.jpg

  
 See that *Ref cable* *ASCC* number of 2.5KAmps (2,500 amps)?
 And how the Marigo cable has a 1920 amp *ASCC* test result?
  
 These current dump readings of 2000 amps is on a separate branch circuit with a 20amp circuit breaker, just like all the other locations have.
  
 And see how even the *AppCord* is now measuring at ≈ 1000 amps?
 All because of a direct, short, dedicated branch circuit being fed by hardware store ‘Box of Wire’ romex 12/2 w/grnd instead of 14 gauge ‘extension cable’ or very old post and pillar house wiring.
  
 It’s also note worthy to point out that a 3 wire dead short tells us that the Line (hot) wire which is supplying all of the current, while the Neutral and Ground wires provide the return path, is capable of dumping over 2.5K Amps, under ‘idea’ conditions, for a very short amount of time.

 JJ
  
  
*End Part 23-C           *
*   *
*Next up         Part 23-D   Now Were Talk’n…*


----------



## landroni

atomicbob said:


> The PS-III is designed for 32-300 ohms. It sounds very special with the Bifrost MB and HD650, with an Electro-Harmonix 12BH7. Not bad for a budget system that plays in a much higher league than the modest investment would suggest.


 

 Now that the Modi MB is out, and some compare it favorably with (i.e. not ludicrously behind) Yggdrasil, does this have any implications for the budget-minded Synergy System? This would allow swapping the most expensive component in that system (Bifrost MB) for something more in line with the other components...


----------



## johnjen

So today I finished modding my RN3 and buttoned it all back up, and of course re-started he break-in clock all over again.
  
 So I added WAQy chips to the fuse and power transformer in the power supply.
 And added silver goo to the fuse holder and the ac input connector to the power supply board, and the power cable IEC connector pins and lastly the AES breakout cable pins.
  
 This should be enough to last for a while, well, until the next round of RN3 mods rises to the top of the list of, 'gotta find out - stuff to do'.
  
 But thus far the results are that even more *CP's* have been yanked out of the system, again.
  
 The Beatles White album is especially revealing… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> So today I finished modding my RN3 and buttoned it all back up, and of course re-started he break-in clock all over again.
> 
> So I added WAQy chips to the fuse and power transformer in the power supply.
> And added silver goo to the fuse holder and the ac input connector to the power supply board, and the power cable IEC connector pins and lastly the AES breakout cable pins.
> ...


 

 I was going to ask, in the other thread, what you'd done to your RN3.
  
 Now I know!
  
 I shall have to find a convincing way to persuade you to bring that over to my place to compare back-to-back with my stock RN3, once I have it installed (it is, at least, un-boxed now).  Jessye Norman an nicely aged McCallan perhaps.  And we should try and do that before Bill escapes from WA.


----------



## Middy

If you have the option do the same to any internal connections.. Clean..Remove oxide..clean.. Silver gunk very fine amount.. IMHO..Clean is clean new isn't clean..those breakable connections inside are pulled out of a bag and put in for wave soldering..
The cleaner removes flux only... Not oil ..silicone release agent..Oxide. 
The worse the electrical connection the better the result.. A cheap and easy fix but be careful with liquid solder or silver gunk as we know it...
JJ made me realise small changes do add up...
Good luck
Dave


----------



## johnjen

:thumb
 :thumb
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 23-D             ASCC test results, Now Were Talk’n…*
  
 So this is the last data set, but it contains all of the cables I used during testing, as such the playing field is fully populated and these results reflect the electrical environment my audio system is operating within, because none of the other Locations are useable for my audio system so this one got the full meal deal treatment.
  
 Note, this dedicated audio run has been ‘tweaked’, not by super-zoopy wire but with Shunyata and Synergistic Research duplex receptacles, and WA-Q cable chips have been wrapped around the romex cable in 2 places.
  
 Plus I’ve added WA-Q fuse chips to the individual wires (hot, neutral and ground) of the romex cable in the panel for this branch circuit.
 Also I’ve added WA-Q cable chips to the 2 main power feed wires, that run from the pole outside, then connect up to the main breakers for the entire service to my house, along with one on the neutral feeder wire as well.
  
 So it has some enhancements, which were kept because they contributed to SQ improvements, they made things ‘*Better*’
  
 And so now we get the full panoply of cables that I tested.
 I had 8 power cables available to me to test, and they range from;
 #1 (*AppCord*) The ‘standard appliance cord’ which is ‘good enough’…
  
 #2 (*Marigo*) An old Marigo RMX Reference Ultra. An audiophool cable from the 90’s ($$$).
  
 #3 (*G-1*) A ‘stock’ Bottlehead power cable, made from their kit.
  
 #4 (*G-1-rfi)* A ‘stock’ Bottlehead power cable, with an RFI filter (a ferrite donut on the cable).
  
 #5 (*G-4-g*) A ‘hot-rodded’ Bottlehead power cable, made with better materials and gold plated connectors.
  
 #6 (*G-4-r*) A ‘hot-rodded’ Bottlehead power cable, made with better materials and rhodium plated connectors.  It should also be noted that this cable remains a ‘reference’ cable to judge performance and I also still use it when I am cooking the other cables.
  
 #7 (*A-D*) Shunyata Alpha-Digital power cable with many, many, thousands of hours that has been cooked, repeatedly.
  
 #8 (*Python*) Shunyata Python power cable with many, many, thousands of hours that has been cooked, repeatedly.
  
*Ref Cable*  (*Stubby*)  The same *Ref Cable* used in all tests.
  
 As you can see, the cables run the gamut from $1.49 (*AppCord*) to multi thousands of $$$$ (*Python*) with several low cost cables in the middle.
  
 And I’ll describe the G-1 and G-4 cables in a little more detail, just because.
 G-1 cables, both with and w/o the rfi choke (ferrite donut), are stock Bottlehead kits, which is to say, not all copper wire with ‘inexpensive’ connectors at each end.  These cables are ≈ 13awg.
  
 The G-4 hot-rodded versions come in 2 flavors, with either gold or rhodium plated connectors. They use the same build design but have also been cryo treated and cooked on my industrial strength Audiodharma Cable Cooker. These cables use UL listed TFFN electricians all copper stranded 16awg ‘hook up’ wire. And since the ‘design’ uses 2 pieces of wire for each conductor, the effective rating is ≈ 13awg. And I opted for the cheap Chinese knockoff connectors, which cost ≈ $25/pair.
  
 Which makes the total cost of materials for the G-4 series of cables I made as roughly $45/cable plus the cryo-treatment (≈$25) and cooking costs (≈ $15) for ≈ $85/cable.
  
 The ‘best’ of my DIY cables, the *G-4-r*, is still a reference cable in some regards, and was certainly the standard by which I compared the next cables on this list.
  
 Which then brings us to the Shunyata *Python* and Alpha-Digital (*A-D*) cables. These are cables of 9awg and 10awg respectively, which were already cryo treated by Shunyata as a normal part of their manufacturing process. And I did cook both of these as well, in fact I wouldn’t have purchased them if I hadn’t.
 They just didn’t deliver the same bass impact as my *G-4-r* cable in the extreme bottom end, without being cooked.
  
 The *Marigo* RMX Reference ‘Ultra’ is an old cable a friend gave me years ago. I haven’t used it in any system for quite a while, mostly because it never seemed to make any difference. But I’m glad I hung on to it, if for no other reason than to use it in these tests.
 So there you have the line up.
  
 #4 ExAudioRun+.jpg

  
 And as a quick examination of the data, pay attention to the *AppCord* with ≈ 3x the current dump capability.
 And that while we don’t see 2500Amp capability we do see  all of the cables starting from the  G-4 series and moving left as able to dump 1000Amps, which again is 3x more current than the ‘household’ GFCI duplex receptacle.
  
 And observe the trend of the ‘spread’ of the Voltage drop %’s as the cables move from #3 to the left (*G-1* thru to *Stubby*) for each of the 3 different current tests (*12a - 15a - 20a*).
  
 In the next (and last) part of this sub-series I’ll examine the ‘big picture’, the trends I see, and conclusions that I have made.
 Of course I could read much more into the data and perform some math based analysis but that really isn’t important.
 Why?
 Because current dump capability alone is not the only factor that is relevant nor is it necessarily the most important.
 BUT it does have a direct influence upon our playback systems ESPECIALLY when it acts as a major CP in and of itself.
  
 IOW ASCC results are just a convenient means of testing for a related influence in the overall operation of our systems.
 But it, in and of itself, isn’t the only aspect to pay attention to.
 Indeed the test parameters of the ASCC test itself is based upon being able to dump current for a Short Duration.
  
 And I haven’t forgotten about explaining the need for the ability to dump current for a short duration and why and how this time function (Very Short Duration) aspect of all of this is not just relevant but is directly tied into how our gear actually operates.
  
 JJ
  
  
*End Part 23-D              *
  
*Next up         Part 24-E   My take away of all of this data…*


----------



## johnjen

RN3 progress report.
  
 @ ≈100hrs since the last major mod was made and the SQ is rising and already I'm hearing more and more gud stuff.
  
 I heard the air handling system kick in during a quiet passage of a Grieg piano concerto and immediately identified it for what it was.
 And during this settling time, to step up so early, is an especially good sign.
  
  
 And on a different topic…
 So is anyone seeing anything 'useful' in the data I've presented thus far?
  
 Just curious is all.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Sorry JJ I wouldn't know what to look for...


----------



## rnros

johnjen said:


> RN3 progress report.
> 
> @ ≈100hrs since the last major mod was made and the SQ is rising and already I'm hearing more and more gud stuff.
> 
> ...


 
 Great for the RN3, not so great for the recording venue, assuming it was a studio or adapted space, not a concert hall! But I've heard similar on recordings, worst has been starting and stopping traffic.
  


> And on a different topic… So is anyone seeing anything 'useful' in the data I've presented thus far?


 
 Haven't read the thread, yet, but I will. Looks interesting on first scan. Thanks.


----------



## atomicbob

landroni said:


> Now that the Modi MB is out, and some compare it favorably with (i.e. not ludicrously behind) Yggdrasil, does this have any implications for the budget-minded Synergy System? This would allow swapping the most expensive component in that system (Bifrost MB) for something more in line with the other components...


 
 Will be looking at this over the next several weeks as time permits. First impressions of MoMB: spatial cues, immersion are similar to the other Schiit MB but there are trade-offs to achieve this price point and resolution is one of them. For most music the slightly lower resolution won't be audible. Some of my more dynamic jazz and classical recordings achieve better focus as one moves up the product line.


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> RN3 progress report.
> 
> @ ≈100hrs since the last major mod was made and the SQ is rising and already I'm hearing more and more gud stuff.
> 
> ...


 
 There is a lot of data here which takes time to distill.
 RN D16 + MC-3+ is providing an excellent 3-D spatial immersion even with the MoMB.
 -AB


----------



## johnjen

Hopefully some of the insights in the data will be more apparent in the next part of the mini-series.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 23-E             ASCC test results, My take away of all of this data…*
  
 So what do I make of all this fussing with cables and analyzing these *ASCC* results?
  
 Well some of the obvious conclusions are the shorter the cables the better and larger gauge wires can pass BIG current IF, a Big IF, the branch circuit is ‘healthy’.
 So if you really want to see big gains with ‘monster gauge’ cables, just to feed our measly couple of hundred watts of power draw, you need a ‘healthy’ branch circuit.
 Well D’uh…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And in my case the power draw is ≈150watts and it used to be roughly half that.
 So the question arises in my mind anyway, why does this even make any difference at all?
 But answering that question will have to wait, because there are additional factors in play to examine, which is coming up in the next part.
  
 So I have noted that these results, where better *ASCC* numbers and ‘Better’ sound show correlation and this tells me there is some sort of link here.
 Just what it is, is still a bit unclear although it would be all to easy to ‘jump to conclusions’.
 But really all that matters is, once again, is it ‘*Better*’, or not.
  
 I guess you could say for me the answer is obvious, I mean I went to the trouble and expense of testing all this stuff just to see what I could see, so I did feel there was something of worthwhile value to pursue.
 And perhaps a secret to reveal, buried somewhere in all of this.
  
 And really the insights I have gained are helpful to my understanding of what and why any of this makes any difference, at all.
  
 Now for a few more particular observations.
  
 The *ASCC* results from my ‘standard’ house wiring has been bested by a factor of 3-4 times more current dumping capability and this increase was noticed at every step of the way as improvements were introduced.
 Even the lowly *AppCord* can dump 3 times more current when fed by a more robust branch circuit.
  
 But the ‘jump’ from my bathroom *GFCI* source to the ‘extension cord’ that runs my computer, to the *1st Splice*, without exception, showed large increases and improvements in all aspects that were measured.
  
 And being able to dump 1000 Amps in a short time frame vs ≈ 300 Amps is a significant increase.
  
 And the marked difference in the measurements between the *1st Splice* location and the end of the run with 15’ of added romex is also telling.
  
 And that *Stubby* 12” ref cable gave, consistently, the best *ASCC* readings.
 And that all of the other cables are 5-6’ long is another telling piece to this puzzle.
  
 And that by including the Ground wire into the *ASCC* test always (with again, 1 exception) gave increased current dump capability.
  
 All of these observations point at further areas for study.
 Except that the true benefit is ‘*Better*’ SQ from the system, in many many ways.
  
 So additionally when testing a ‘poor’ branch circuit, the cable itself being used to test that circuit will only have minimal beneficial effects, at most.
 IOW the limiting factor is the branch circuit itself and not the cable being tested/used.
 This in and of itself may help to explain why for some, they hear no improvement by using a ‘better’ AC cable on their gear.
 And in these cases the branch circuit itself is The *CP* and a ‘better’ AC cable won’t fix that.
  
  

  
  

  
  
 The next bit of analysis centers upon using the *Ref Cable* and comparing it’s measurements, specifically the *Impedance* and *Voltage Drop* generated numbers, from the *GFCI* outlet to the end of the branch circuit that feeds my audio system.
 Here we see a 3 to 4 fold decrease in resistance of the hot and neutral circuits, and similar decreases in the *Voltage Drop* numbers for those same hot and neutral circuits.
 IOW again as the branch circuit improves there is less ‘wasted’ energy when delivering power to our gear.
 And these improvements can yield better peak amounts of current, for a very short amount of time.
  
 Next up is comparing all of the AC cables, especially the 6 best cables (*G-4-r* thru to the *Stubby* plus the *Marigo*) where we see they all measure fairly close to each other.
 But what sticks out for me is that, as was mentioned previously, shorter and larger gauge cables tend to deliver better results.
 And here we are comparing a 12” cable with 6’ cables, which in turn says using bigger gauge wires can overcome the added length of the cables.
  
 But, again ONLY if the branch circuit from the panel is sufficiently robust to be able to dump big current in the first place.
  
 Another consequence of these improvements is the increase in the number of these re-purposed words I’ve been using and describing in this entire ‘*Better*’ series of posts.
 IOW the improvements made to the electrical service and its capability, resulted in trying to describe the changes I heard as a result of these improvements, which also led to exploring additional aspects of the power delivery capability, and research into fuses etc.
  
 Lastly is how much change in peak *ASCC* numbers the 12AWG romex delivered between the *1st Splice* and the end of the audio run.
 IOW the length increased by ≈40% and the peak current dropped off by up to ≈ 1/2.
  
 Which just further reinforces the idea of the length of the cable as being a big influencing factor in current dump capability.
  
 And what would happen if instead of 12AWG romex, 10 or even 8awg cables were used instead?
 Well, actually I have a coil of 4 x 8awg mondo romex cable sitting in my back room, just waiting to be used and measured…
  
 Next up is Part #24 - A - B - C  Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…  
 This is turning out to be another long post, so I’ll be breaking it up into segments.
 And I’m not sure of the details of just how this will happen, yet.
 Stay tuned…

 JJ

*End Part 23-E  *
  
*Next up         Part 24 - A - B - C  Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…*


----------



## Middy

I was wondering if there would be a change to the panel fuses also JJ or are you discussing Fuses throughoutthe chain?
From reading about the UK regs changing To metal case with dual RCD trips.

I did as suggested and ran the trips on and off to wipe the contacts.

My thought was with your experiments would a higher gauge wire require a different rated Trip and would that affect your readings?
This safety wise would be for the total load i assume but does this add to the total change even though the load is the same...
Again excuse my limited knowledge but i am still very pleased and suprised that Synergistic research Quantum Black affected the sound so radically.. 

Just not quite enough to start sacrificing live goats but nearly magical to my ears...


----------



## johnjen

If by panel fuses you mean those ceramic or glass screw in fuses, then the best I'd recommend is to power down the entire panel and clean the 'threads' and center contacts of both the fuses and their sockets.
  

  

  
 I use scotchbrite and in this case I'd also use cramolin or deoxit red if the corrosion is heavy.
 If the threads and center 'button' get nice and shiney just using the scotchbrite then the red deoxit/cramolin isn't needed.
 Improving the ability of the fuse to connect to its 'socket' will solve multiple problems both potential (like a fire hazzard) and existing (greater voltage and current delivery to the load).
  
 Most breaker panels are designed for certain types and numbers of branch circuit loads.
 So while changing the screw in fuses might seem like a good idea, you are limited in the fuse rating by it's size, so trying to use fuses with greater ratings than what the panel is designed for is simply not gunna happen.
 IOW the range of fuses is determined by the panel itself so it 'automatically' limits the range of fuses that are meant for that panel.
  
 As for using greater gauge wire, again the panels are designed for certain branch circuit capacities and getting much greater gauge wire to actually 'fit' in the spaces provided, with much stiffer wires, is a challenge in and of itself.
 And there are other built in 'safety' factors as well, but regardless, as I mentioned above each panel is designed for a certain range of capacities and trying to significantly expand beyond them is difficult.
 And really an electrician should be involved in any such attempt.
  
 But yes if a circuit breaker or screw in fuse of greater capacity or larger gauge wire is used, the ASCC numbers will increase.
  
 And sometimes the net effect of using a 'Better' fuse in our gear can be astonishing and unexpected in the range and magnitude of the SQ improvements.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

http://m.automation24.co.uk/item/313031313232?refID=adwords_shopping_UK&gclid=Cj0KEQjwouW9BRCN0ozIifTI6_cBEiQAD9gNsWLf6WTA-ERJIdvaFszx637GBPT5zv1QA39se_yhwpIaArIi8P8HAQ

I have these in my UK consumer unit..
did reset them all back in as there is a tang at the back that fits into the busbar.. ran them back and forward....
Ironically 2 wires for the upstairs ring were loose ... Same for the main Earth...Glad I checked... All switched off...

I'll check any changes tommorow...

Keep up the good work..


----------



## johnjen

Checking for those loose wires is a very good thing.
 It's those that can start house fires.
  
 Did you check the ends of those loose wires that fed into those circuit breakers (CB's)?
 Make sure they aren't 'cooked'/corroded etc.
  
 And manually tripping then re-setting those CB's serves multiple functions.
 Besides making sure they actually work it also tends to 'clean' the contact patches inside the CB's.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

I was suprised the was no arcing around the contacts just the normal dull copper. A clean an a touch of Deoxit..
It was as comfortable as I felt with the box still having the live on at the main breaker. (Panel off) The sound has improved somewhat...Safety for my home first. .. but SQ is very nice for free.... 
Shame my power bill isn't. ...

Thanks for the advice as always JJ


----------



## hekeli

Sorry for little ad, but as it was discussed in this thread.. sold my phones so if someone wants to experiment with the polarity stuff, I can sell my 4-pin XLR->XLR adapter made by Forza (hybrid HPC). It has right channel polarity reversed. Feel free to PM..


----------



## johnjen

So I wrote this and posted it 'over yonder' and thought it might help provide some insight here as well.
  
_An Analogy._

_I’m ‘into’ hi-end teas, have spent the time and effort to learn and experience a variety of teas from boxed and bagged teas from spaceway, to multi-K$ teas._
  
_And I would venture a guess that not many here are ‘into’ tea, at any level.
 This is akin to the general public’s general lack of awareness of tea vs. those who are ‘into’ tea.
 Likewise most folks aren't 'into' audio, let alone want/need to push the envelope, so to speak._
  
_Of course the learning curve for tea is (or can be) involved and takes a fair amount of exposure to the range of what is available.
 But it also takes exposure and experience of what is possible to know what teas you like and what teas you don’t care for.
 This is akin to those just starting out in audio vs those who have spent the time and $$$$$$ and effort to explore what they like and what they don’t care for…_
  
_Along the way in learning about tea, the issue of how to best make tea, and what ‘tools’ and techniques help to make tea ‘Better’ is introduced into the picture.
 This considerably complicates the picture, due to the variety of tools and their usefulness in making a particular tea._
  
_For instance, some pots make no difference (glass for instance) while others can make the tea much ‘Better’ and other pots can make it far worse.
 This is part of the learning curve, and is experientially based, meaning until you personally taste the tea you won’t know for yourself if that tea works well with that pot and water quality and temperature and brewing time etc. (the techniques).
 And there are a myriad of possibilities and combinations of tools and techniques as well as teas.
 This is akin to the choices we all have for gear and how we wind up using our setup_
  
_And with tea, each experience is unique, meaning the very same tea will present a different taste from pot to pot and even from cup to cup, and even from the first sip to the last for a cup.
 This degree of ‘resolution’ is usually only apparent when your tea palate is developed well enough to be able to distinguish the subtle differences that are inherent in making and enjoying tea.
 This is where exposure and experience comes into play, so that one can appreciate these differences in the first place.
 This is akin to knowing what types of SQ are preferable vs those that are less so.
 But attaining this degree of perceptible resolution does take exposure and experience and then we can take on the task of determining if the results are ‘Better’, or not.
 And each individual makes that choice for themselves._
  
_Some teas are very flavorable while others are so slight they could be dismissed as being just hot water.
 But until one’s tea palette is developed and attuned, these 2 examples can easily be considered as being a less than desirable tea.
 And they certainly can be for that individual at that time, but in the fullness of time (ie. added experience) both of these extremes can become very delightful to the very same individual.
 This a kin to the refinement and a more thorough understanding of just what we desire and have come to understand, for ourselves, as being ‘Better’._
  
_IOW this hobby accords us all the opportunity to explore what each of us likes and more importantly allows us to develop our appreciation for what added resolution and refinement and in which particular ways these aspects morph as we further develop our ability to hear ‘into’ the music.
 This is what I call getting ‘calibrated’, meaning as we become all the more exposed to ‘Better’ SQ, we can all the better judge if any changes we make to our system are truly ‘Better’, or are they just different._
  
_All of this reminds me of what Bruce Lee once told me…
 ‘In the beginning of training a punch is just a punch, and a kick is just a kick.
 While delving into the training and learning all of the aspects of martial arts, a punch is much more than a punch, and a kick is much more than just a kick.
 Then when a degree of mastery is achieved, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.’_
  
_So it is with any degree of self mastery.
 We learn by doing and where we focus our attention, we achieve added understanding which can lead to wisdom, if we so choose._
  
_JJ_
  
 And there is a part 2 to this as well, which I'll post later.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

It got a bit Hot over there but you can't buy personal experience only gain it over time. I wish I had yours and Bob's experience. ATM I am playing with shielding. Some deeper analogies are missed by some and even though I got a dislike for it Sometimes the music is the only common thread between people.
But that's a good thing for community. ....
What people take from it can be manifold. Collectors, data analysis, engineering, experimenters,just people finding a kindred spirit to talk to..
You can swap audio for any other hobby you tend to find similar people..
It would be nice to just jump in and buy from others hard earned experience but that cuts out the journey that most of us need to bring satisfaction....

Bruce's philosophical look at life was more impressive that his martial skills. But both intrinsically linked..

Cheers buddy always a thought provoking 
read..
Keep smiling JJ
Dave


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> It got a bit Hot over there but you can't buy personal experience only gain it over time. I wish I had yours and Bob's experience. ATM I am playing with shielding. Some deeper analogies are missed by some and even though I got a dislike for it Sometimes the music is the only common thread between people.
> But that's a good thing for community. ....
> What people take from it can be manifold. Collectors, data analysis, engineering, experimenters,just people finding a kindred spirit to talk to..
> You can swap audio for any other hobby you tend to find similar people..
> ...


 
 I have found it fascinating that the combination of our personal experience and the interaction between us yields such dynamic results.
 By that I mean we share our understandings with each other, some of which is 'hard' earned and very difficult to attain any other way but to do what is needed, and this experience/understanding/wisdom sequence can all to easily be 'taken for granted'.
  
 Why?
 Because there was little personal involvement/investment in attaining these experiences and their consequential results if simply shared without direct involvement in these pearls of wisdom.
 They don't carry the same weight of value without 'work'n it'.
 Some do grasp and are appreciative of these nuggets of insights, and their associated means and methods for getting 'Better'.
  
 And being able to pass them along is valuable in and of itself, especially if there is a modicum of comprehension on the receiving end.
  
 But the real 'value' of this 3 step sequence (experience/understanding/wisdom) is in the doing of it, and not the having of it.
  
 And in this hobby the having of it reigns supreme, and for good reason.
 Like how can you experience kick @ss tunes if you don't have access to them?
  
 But the fun doesn't have to stop there, by any means.
 This is one of the 'secrets' to music that is rarely if ever mentioned.
 That being, the curiosity and discovery thru trial and error/experimentation and making mistakes, lots and lots of mistakes can be so helpful.
 Mistakes are (or can be) the fast lane to bridging the gap from experience to understanding, and but for the stigma, has no equal in terms of effectiveness, that is if it is dealt with in this way.
  
 Like the saying, 'it’s the journey and not the destination' that is or can have far more significance and value.
  
 And lastly our personal interaction can act as triggers, or activators, or as an inspirational kick in the butt, to help us point our curiosity and discovery in new directions and with 'fresh' perspectives applied to the familiar.
 This can (if followed up) result in additional insights and avenues of experimentation.
  
 Which is where learning, and becoming all the more involved and familiar with that which we are already motivated to want to know more about to begin with, becomes fun.
  
 A Win-Win-Win scenario, if ever there was one.
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

This is my response to a post from 'elsewhere' and since this response is based upon another’s comments, I'll ask the questions (as I understand them) then the answers in my post will make more sense.
  
_*Making tea can become complicated if that is what one wishes to do.*_
  
 Yeah all of those 'extra' accessories just make the whole 'ceremony' a PIA as far as I'm concerned.
  
 The Japanese do a ceremony, where every move is choreographed etc. and it’s very complex and deliberately so.
  
 The Chinese method used to be really complex and used a whole bunch of tools, but the way I was taught was very simple yet sophisticated and required a fair amount of experience to know steep times and temperature etc. and how to dial each steeping in for optimal results. And then there is the 'art' of 'raising' the pot and determining what tea(s) it will be suitable for.
  
 When I was hanging out at the tea house making tea for all of the customers while they all spoke to each other in whatever dialect they choose, (and I didn't understand anything they were saying) it was a 'trick' to keep up with the 'demand'. The ideal was to never let any cup stay empty, unless it was upside down…
  
 The thing is, at least for me, making tea for a group is like going to a pub or coffee house where everyone is sitting around telling stories and sharing life experiences while enjoying some really fine tea. And unlike a pub, no one gets loaded, or way to jittery from coffee (although tea can get you 'high') it’s a much more relaxed and convivial experience.
  
_*So making tea is an art, one that needs practice and exposure to a variety of teas and conditions in order to get the process dialed in.*_
  
 Joe the owner of the tea store gave me a set of 10 'official tea institute' video tapes from Taiwan, on how to make tea, which I watched and didn't understand a single word, but the video told me all I needed to know. And when I asked Joe why the method was so rigid and didn't reflect what he had taught me, he said it was the official 'method' but everyone knew how to make tea 'the right way'.
  
_*There seems to be a ‘trend’ in taking the making of tea to an extreme of sorts.*_
  
 And that technique of stuffing the pot and hitting it with boiling water etc. seems like a method to impress and separate those who know from those who don't know what really good tea is truly all about. The true sign of good tea is when your body knows and automatically reaches for your cup after it has been refilled because you drank all that was served, time and time again. But when the cup is never emptied, because your body knows it isn't what it wants, well that's the sign that tells the tale.
  
_*As the process of making tea is grasped more fully, a degree of refinement kicks in and the end results become all the more sublime and appreciated.*_
  
 And as more experience is gained the tea making process becomes all the more refined and 4-5-6-7-8 steeps becomes the norm, then you know you've got your technique dialed in.
 It's not a matter of going by the steps but by paying attention to all of the signs (like how the pot responds during the steep) and playing with the variables to nail the results.
 That's when that last 1.2% shows up, because all of the parameters are optimized because intuitively they are taken into account.
 Pu-Erh is the epitome of this whole process where 20-30 steeps is attainable IF you know what you're doing AND have the correct pot etc.
 And the results can be sublime, something like a tea version of a fine port with rich and deep flavors that morph and change even while drinking from just one sip. But without the opportunity to experience this level of enjoyment one may never know what the range of flavors that are attainable from really fine tea can truly be.
  
 But it takes experience to know how all of these details influence each other and how to compensate as the number of steeps goes up, that is if you want to nail it and explore as much of the subtleties as are available.
  
 JJ


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## Torq

johnjen said:


> This is my response to a post from 'elsewhere' and since this response is based upon another’s comments, I'll ask the questions (as I understand them) then the answers in my post will make more sense.
> 
> _*Making tea can become complicated if that is what one wishes to do.*_
> 
> ...


 
  
 In addition to some serious listening, we're going to have to get together for a proper tea-time (in the best, but simplest, English, tradition of the phrase).
  
 You also, probably, need to borrow my Auralic Aries and run it side-by-side with your RedNet 3 and see what you think.  Very interested in your opinion/experience there.  I still need to put a Mutec MC-3+ USB into both chains.  Won't tip my hat in advance of you getting to listen.
  
 I'm mostly "elsewhere" at the moment, also, but you know where to find me in e-mail as well.


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## johnjen

That sounds like an excellent idea.
  
 To be able to compare my RN3 setup to a comparable digital wire (with a box in the middle) would be quite valuable, on multiple fronts.
  
 The Mutec w/USB seems to be a definite step up even though it still rubs me the wrong way not just because it's another 1K$ but just on principle alone (yet another box????), but I have heard what they can do and there is no denying the improvement.
 Sigh…
  
 When you are 'settled' let me know and we can take the next step.  :thumb
  
 JJ 
 I can bring some 'authentic' tea as well for your brewing pleasure…


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## Soundsgoodtome

I would love to borrow someone's mutec (again) as a reclocker but like you JJ, another box in the tower is the hold back. The rednet 3 by itself has me quite content as is.


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## johnjen

I know what you mean.
 And the low cost tweaks are also a step up in SQ as well.
 Such as the FMC optical ethernet means of complete galvanic isolation.
 And there are a few others, like a *'better'* fuse etc.
  
 I'll be posting the results of my investigations of using a LPS instead of the stock SMPS wall wart, here soon.
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

torq said:


> In addition to some serious listening, we're going to have to get together for a proper tea-time (in the best, but simplest, English, tradition of the phrase).
> snip


 
 And I'll have you know I have perfected the art of raising of ones little pinky, albeit in a completely different context to provide that bit of flair and distinction that is so often neglected in these days of 'git-er-done' thinking.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 hahahahahahahahahahaha…
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 24 - A            Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…*

 So remember where I kept bring up the subject of short duration with high current dump capability ?
  
 Here is the start of the explanation of that tie in.
 It gets involved with several separate topics that all interact with each other, so…
  
 Remember that circuit breaker in my panel that allowed 2,500 amps to pass thru and it didn’t trip?
 The reason it was possible lies in the fact that a circuit breaker uses a coil to create enough magnetic power to trip the breaker switch itself.
 Coils take time to build up their magnetic flux, so in short 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 there is a time delay between when current flows and when the coil can actually trip the breaker off.
  
 The amount of that delay in *ms* is significant in other ways as well which also influence our systems, directly.
 Another significant influence in all of this is the delay of the fuse in responding to current over time.
 Much like the coil in the circuit breaker in my electrical panel, the fuses we use have a delay which (unlike the circuit breaker coil) can be changed to suit the needs of the circuit designer.
  
 My gear uses slow blow fuses, which have delay profiles which are characterized by detailed, time and current characteristics.
 These characteristics tie into our *ms* (milli-seconds or 0.00x seconds) delay of the circuit breaker,
 AND,
 this is the kicker,
 the basic timing of our 60Hz line voltage frequency.
  
 IOW the very reason I could even see 2500 amps coming out of a 20amp breaker in the first place is because of the interaction between these various ms delays that are engineered and designed to ’take advantage’ of this interaction with the 60Hz line voltage frequency.
 I’ll go into more detail on this later, but for now …
  
 I gotta ‘splain a few things about theis leeettle wyr called a fuse.
  
 They are so small and innocent looking, and cheap.
 Of course I’m used to 15¢ fuses, I mean its just a glass tube with end caps and theis leeettle wyr that runs from one end to the other.
 So what’s the big deal anyway, right?
  

  

  
 I figure most think of a fuse as just a protection device and little else.
 After all that is what they are used for.
 And that they are required to be included in the circuit that directly connects to the AC mains.
 UL and several other regulatory agencies all mandate that a fuse or some form of safety disconnect be put in line with the ac power input to the device as a means of preventing meltdown and becoming a fire hazard.
 But that, at least to what I have come to understand, is only a portion of their total function.
  
  
 Because fuses are such a ‘critical’ safety valve in terms of preventing a major meltdown and starting a fire etc., they are rather precisely and deliberately characterized as to their current vs time characteristics.
 And there are several ways of characterizing each fuses ‘performance’ all of which deal with how much current the fuse can pass and for what duration, and especially significant are the ratings for the amount of current for short durations.
 In fact there is a specific test devised just to typify this short duration current dump capability.
 This too will be explained in more detail in a bit.
  
 So fuses ARE protection devices, but they also have a functional impact upon the gear they are protecting.
 Especially audio gear.
  
 So what do I mean?
 Fuses are in line with ALL of the power the device is using, which means all of the energy required to operate the device passes thru the fuse.
 This includes the energy need just to turn the device on and make it operational, but with no signal present.
 And all of the energy to then operate (amplify signals, control or modify them etc.) while passing a signal thru them.
  
 Now with light loads (pre-amps, dacs, etc.) the energy needed to pass a signal thru them is relatively small, but with power amps the energy the signal requires is much greater, relatively speaking.
  
 This constitutes varying amounts of energy passing thru, moment by moment as the signal increases and decreases in amplitude and in frequency.
 IOW the power needed to drive speakers/headphones will ‘track’ the signal albeit in a much different way than as the signal itself.
  
 There is a dynamic relationship between the internal resistance (as it varies due to heating) and the current flow capability as the fuse reacts to the changing amount of energy that passes thru the fuse.
  
 And to my mind if it were simply a matter of just simple resistance I doubt Anyone would hear SQ differences between fuses.
 But as I stated it’s the dynamic relationship of the fuse as it ‘reacts’ to the changing requirements of power that passes thru theis leeettle wyr .
  
 But the current passes thru the fuse in PULSES relating to those ms time windows, which is directly related to the pulses used in the I^2t testing that is used to categorize fuses.
  
 Wait, what?!
 The _What_ test?
  
 That’s up next!
  
 JJ
  

*End Part 24 - A  *
  
  
*Next up         Part 24 - B      Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…
                                                Oh NOES not MATH too…*


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## johnjen

I recently posted about adding a LPS (Linear Power Supply) instead of using the stock SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) wall wart to the 'end' of the chain of the FMC (Fiber Media Converter) that then feeds the ethernet signal to my RN3.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio/1725#post_12837951
  
 In short, SMPS's are noisy, (no big surprise there, right?) but the degree and kind of improvement was note worthy as well.
  
 JJ


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## Middy

Can't remember the Dac manufacturer but they state that smps can be quieter than linears. Filtering of the bands that we can hear.The design and cost seems to be aimed at FCC CE regs rather than the quality of the DC supply of wall marts. IFI seem to be the only manufacturer to address that as an LPS alternative. But with the likes of John Swenson pushing limits and now Super caps with intelligent bank switching, nothing coming down the pipe soon.


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## Middy

Hi JJ, When you were trying the AKIKO experiments, did you try shielding the stick? Buying across continents is messing with my experimenting...So I am waiting for the normal AC akiko but now have my MU metal sheet.
Hitting the science of piezoelectric crystals converting EM FIELD'S into movement/kinetic energy makes sense. What mix of tourmaline, quartz and how it's suspended I'd love to know.....
My rambling point being if it takes out some of the EM field induced or contact created off the ground plane. Would this be reduced with environmental EM also being picked up by the stick acting like an aerial. ???
Mu metal with EM is best shaped round to match the curved dipole shape of magnetic fields. If you or BP haven't tried I will see if there is any extra effect with a simple faraday cage and my new MU sheet wrapped round like a cardboard tube.... 
And if the sticks work for me...I still need to remove scepticism with real world experience... Also I am expecting a money transfer from the deputy South African Ambassador from a E mail I had last week...
Shielding the INTONA has suprised a few of us, now ...nearly time to try the MU metal... But now I have to wait before cutting it up for my Akiko to arrive...

A degree in material physics would be handy right now but me plugging away with cheap metal foils and box's trying to block the EM spectrum is a start. 
Give a bit back to the community...

Looking forward to fuse part 2
Cheers
Dave


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## johnjen

With the existence of a wireless akiko stick/canister I figure that the ability to absorb airborne EM fields is part of the intention of these sticks etc.
  
 IOW trying to shield them would, should, might not be much if any help.
  
 In fact one of the things I do is to place the canisters (both wired and wireless) in close proximity to the ac power cables.
 These sorts of changes are very subtle, but are more noticeable when the line level IC's are also placed next to the canisters.
 So much so that I moved them away from the canister due to too much 'dampening' of the analog signal.
  
 Perhaps it was 'too much of a good thing' as the SQ was 'dulled' just a tad.
 But it was only recently (since the RN3 has been added to my system) that this dulling of the SQ was evident.
 At least in my system anyway.
  
 And the net effect that the Akiko sticks make is subtle to begin with as has been mentioned by myself and others, so we're down to splitting frog hairs with all of this…
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

And a related topic…
  
 The SQ of the system has begun another rise in peak SQ.
  
 Recently I have been fussing with the knobs yet again, still more.
 And currently I'm tracking 4 changes made in somewhat rapid succession…
 #1 Swapping the SMPS for a LPS on my FMC that feeds my RN3 (3-4 letter acronysms R-Us 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
 #2 Tweaked my Rok amp.
 #3 Swapped out the fuses in my PWD dac.
 #4 Shortened my AES cable from the RN3 to the PWD dac.
  
 Every time I make a change to the system, my settling in clock starts anew, only in this situation I'm tracking all 4 changes at the same time.
 And sometimes they seem to be reinforcing each other, especially during a SQ peak, like is happening right now.
  
 JJ


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## Middy

http://www.interferencetechnology.com/designing-electronic-systems-for-emc-grounding-for-the-control-of-emi-3/


A little complex for me but I know you and BP have covered some 'ground' on this but may find some useful info here and on the other topics, on the site..
I hope it helps
Dave


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## johnjen

Very kewl!
 Thanks for that link.
  
 Now to digest it…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 nom, nom, nom
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*
  
*Part 24 - B            Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…
                               Oh NOES not MATH too…*
  
 So lets start off with the math, just to get it out of the way…
  
 If you do the math, one cycle of a 60Hz power feed takes ≈ 16.67 *ms*.  Which means that half a cycle takes ≈ 8.33 *ms*. 
 This 8 *ms* is significant for a number of reasons and amongst them is the I^2t measurement of fuse behavior. 
 This 8 *ms* also plays a role in the way that the diode switched power supplies in our gear ‘operates’.
  
 Lemme explain.
 Fuses are rated by how much current they can pass before giving their all and opening up.  One such test (I^2t - ampere squared seconds) measures the maximum amount of current that the fuse will pass in 8 *ms* before becoming a ‘tosser’.   
 Which means they are rating each fuse for how much current it will pass during 1/2 of a cycle of our 60Hz ac power.
  
 To wit…
_“A pulse of current is applied to the fuse, and a time measurement is taken for melting to occur. If melting does not occur within a short duration of about 8 milliseconds (0.008 seconds) or less, the level of pulse current is increased. This test procedure is repeated until melting of the fuse element is confined to within about 8 milliseconds. The purpose of this procedure is to assure that the heat created has insufficient time to thermally conduct away from the fuse element. That is, all of the heat energy (I^2t) is used, to cause melting. Once the measurements of current (I) and time (t) are determined, it is a simple matter to calculate melting I^2t. When the melting phase reaches completion, an electrical arc occurs immediately prior to the “opening” of the fuse element._
  
_Clearing I^2t = Melting I^2t + arcing I^2t_
  
_The nominal I^2t values given in this publication pertain to the melting phase portion of the “clearing” or “opening”.  Alternatively the time can be measured at 10 times of the rated current and the I^2t value is calculated like above.”_
  
_From © 2014 Littelfuse • Fuseology Selection Guide  www.littelfuse.com_
  
 So Littelfuse rates their fuses using an 8 *ms* time window to see how much current the fuse will pass, before turning into a flash in the pan so to speak.
 Which just happens to be the same amount of time our 60Hz line voltage frequency spends in one half of its full cycle.
 IOW the time it takes for the voltage, starting at 0 volts and increasing, then hitting its peak and continuing back down to 0 volts, takes ≈8 *ms*, which just happens to coincide with the time duration of the I^2t test,
 imagine that!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This is the safety factor for the fuse and why each fuse is carefully designed and rated to respond to just one half of a 60Hz cycle.
 The idea is to know, in detail, how much current will be allowed to pass in that 8 *ms*, so that it will melt and open up and save the downstream circuit from meltdown if the current demand has ‘exceeded the need’.   
  
 And now for another bit of insight into how our gear interacts and ‘plugs into’ all of this.
 The diode bridge in our power supplies only conduct (passes power to the rest of the power supply) when the secondary voltage from the power transformer is greater than the existing voltage of the downstream power supply itself.  Which means that the diodes switch ‘on’ for only a portion of that 8 *ms*. 
  
 So for this portion of this thought experiment we’ll use a 50% duty cycle and say that the diodes are ‘on’ for ≈ 4 *ms* and then ‘off’ for ≈ 4 *ms*, then back ‘on’ for ≈ 4 *ms* etc.
 Which means that the incoming ac power is only able to actually power the device for 1/2 of the available time.
 And it’s doing so in ≈ 4 *ms* bursts followed by ≈ 4 *ms* of being switched off, continually.
 Which means that the amount of current the device requires is ‘pulsed’ into the transformer and back out the ac supply onto that particular branch circuit.
  
 This is what ASCC is actually measuring. 
 It ‘simulates’ a dead short between hot and neutral and/or hot and neutral and ground.  And gives us a reading of the maximum amount of current for that 8 *ms* ‘pulse’, if it even lasts that long (depending on which type of circuit protection is involved).
  
 ASCC is a means of determining how much short duration current the particular branch circuit being tested, can actually deliver, before the sparks start flying.
  
 And it all happens in 8 *ms*, or less.
 And, my guess is, our amps and dacs etc. are probably pulling current in ≈ 2-3 *ms* bursts with ≈ 5-6 *ms* ‘off’ timing. 
 Mostly because I doubt that the power supply is ‘operating’ at roughly 1/2 the transformers secondary voltage. 
 It’s probably closer to ≈ 60-80% before the diodes switch on, which shortens the ‘on’ cycle time, and lengthens the ‘off’ cycle times.
 This reduction of ‘on’ time means that the magnitude of the pulse of current must increase, given the same demand for power to operate the device.
 It also means that the power supply is now pulling all it's needed current during only ≈ 25-40% of the available time, instead of ≈ 50%.
  
 Fortunately many fuses are able to dump increasing amounts of current as the duration of the pulse shortens, especially as the pulse duration extends down into the 4-1 *ms* range.
  
 This is why ASCC caught my attention, why I investigated further, and why the measured results I gathered support this perspective.
 It also portends what we can do to improve the SQ of our systems.
 If so motivated.
  
 JJ
  
*End Part 24 - B  *
  
  
*Next up         Part 24 - C      Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…
                                               What does it all mean?*


----------



## johnjen

_*What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?*_
  
_*Part 24 - C        Fuses, theis leeettle wyr…
                           What does it all mean?*_
  
  
 So what’s the big deal with such short duration current dumps anyway?
  
 Ok so the current being supplied into our gear’s diode switched PS’s occurs in ms on/off pulses which is very different than the power delivery that a continuous power draw from say a light bulb or a hair dryer would make.
 But even so what’s so significant about all of this?
  
 Well, besides the added noise that the diodes themselves make while switching on and off, which the downstream portions of the PS help to filter out, this noise also adds to the pulsed incoming power needed to replenish the voltage and current that the device has used to operate itself.
 So this noise travels in both directions, back out onto the AC power feeding our gear, and onto the the rest of the power supply itself.
 IOW the PS is being pulsed by the incoming raw voltage and current it needs to ‘top off’ the PS voltage rails,
 used between pulses along with what the device uses during the ON pulse.
  
 And this pulsing and it’s harmonics are happening at frequencies well within our audio bandwidth.
 And yes this noise is at a fairly low level, at least a portion of the noise from these pulses is, but some much higher and shorter duration spikes and seemingly ‘random’ very large amplitude spikes are not so ‘dainty’, especially those from a SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply).
  
 So aside from the above, these pulses of power also modulate the input to the rest of the PS and this modulation is filtered out and reduced in amplitude in reference to ground.
 But some of this modulation, aka noise, is shunted to ground.
 But that is a subject for another post to follow.
  
 So what does ANY of this have to do with fuses and *ASCC* and short duration peak current flow?
  
 It’s all about magnitude (voltage) and duration (frequency) and how it all interacts and what we can do to ‘help’, which can result in ‘*Better*’ SQ.
  
 So as the *ASCC* test results showed, the greater the current delivery capability of the AC power feed, all the way back to the panel, which includes all of the hardware in the branch circuit, the ‘*better*’ the SQ we get.
 Which is reflected in the *ASCC* #’s.
  
 And since both the fuse and the circuit breaker can act as a *CP* they also can affect the current dump capability to the diode bridge, the fuse especially so…
  
 The circuit breaker, by its inherent design doesn’t pass all its current thru a ‘weak link’, ie. a small wire.
 Instead it has robust contacts (remember 2500 amps?) that get forced apart when tripped.
  
 In contrast the fuse varies its internal resistance based upon how hot it gets as current passes thru its ‘small wire’.
 This is a much more dynamic interaction to the current that passes thru, than the circuit breaker has.
  
 So can different fuses make a difference in SQ?
 Yes they can and in multiple ways…
  
 NOTE: This is a thought experiment, and as such this is NOT advice to perform any of these experiments in any way shape or form.
 Besides the danger and potential for damage being done to you and the equipment, these ideas are meant as examples to compare and contrast what different approaches might make to the performance of our gear.
  
 So an obvious but warranty voiding approach is to hardwire around the fuse.
 In short D), short out the fuse itself, using a large piece of copper or a blob of solder across the fuse contacts usually does the trick.
 This approach has been reported by ‘hardcore/extreme’ modders as yielding ‘*Better*’ SQ.
  
 Another approach is to reduce the contact resistance of the fuse to the fuse holder contacts.
 This can be done, but this experiment uses silver paste which can be rather ‘messy’, and can lead to shorts and ‘improper operation’…
  
 Yet another approach is to try a different fuse altogether.
 There are many audio grade fuses to choose from, some are better than others.
  
 And all of this effort in ‘tweaking’ short duration high current delivery capability does make a change to the SQ of even very low power situations, such as our headphone systems.
  
 It would seem that a dac and amp pulling a total of ≈ 50 watts ± should be less susceptible to needing a large power pulse capability because the power draw is so small to begin with, but such is not the case, at least in my experience…
 Perhaps it’s that HP’s are so much more resolving to begin with, but improvements made to the power distribution and delivery can be quite surprising in their net effect and impact.
  
 And as these pulses are allowed to be more efficient in their ability to transfer power more quickly and effectively by removing *CP*’s related to the short duration, high current power delivery, we get ‘*Better*’.
  
 And really, other than re-wiring or adding a dedicated high capacity branch circuit, all we have to work with is the duplex receptacle, the ac power cable, and the fuse itself.
  
 I have found that when used in combination these 3 tweaks can play a significant role in raising the ASCC numbers but more importantly it makes the SQ ‘Better’ and in numerous ways, as has been noted in other posts in this thread.

 JJ

*End Part 24*
*                    *
*Next up         Part 25   Git DOWN on the Ground!*


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## Soundsgoodtome

JJ, do you think an LPS would benefit the Rednet units and if so how difficult would making that happen be?


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## johnjen

Yeah I can't see where reducing the noise from the PS would do anything but help.
 My experiment of adding a LPS to just one end of my FMC chain was ample demonstration enough
 The question that begs to be answered is, how much of a help.
  
 As for the job of performing the transplant of a 'decent' LPS into the box (or remoting it) is uncertain at this point.
 Really all it would take is figuring out the pin out on the power being fed from the PS to the load.
  
 In my RN3, the power feed is via a robust ribbon cable with ≈ 8 wires (I didn't count them so this is a guess) feeding all of the power (≈30 watts) to the downstream load.
  
 The thing is the stock PS may be supplying several different voltages, like +5, and +15 & -15 volts for instance, since it has differential circuits.
 This would 'complicate' the LPS (read make it more expensive).
 And a 30 watt load is such a small amount of power that most any pre-made LPS would be way over kill.
  
 And I did ask the question, if the pin out of the ribbon cable has been swept and documented yet.
 I haven't checked to see if there was any response yet.
  
 This is one of those explorations I plan on doing, one of these days, but it means taking my RN3 off line and fussing, which means I'll have to listen to my USB feed to my dac…
  
 Oh, the sacrifices we must make in order to fuss…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  
 JJ
 ps although just taking a 'quick' set of readings of the voltages on that ribbon cable would be way easier then a full exploration of the PS board itself.
 HhMmmm…


----------



## johnjen

I took a mess of voltage readings from my RN3 and I'm writing it all up.
 The voltages are printed on the main PS board.
  
 So basically it needs +5v, and ±15v, and 51v and has 3 ground connections for a total of 8 wires in the ribbon cable.
 The 5 and ±15 supplies make sense, but the 51v supply is a bit of a question.
 That would be the voltage needed for a phantom power supply for mics etc., but that doesn't apply to this RN3 as there are no mic inputs, nor does it have a graphic display.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yeah these SMPS units are noisy.
 And it looks like they add a considerable amount of 'extra' noise to the ground plane as well.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> --And it looks like they add a considerable amount of 'extra' noise to the ground plane as well.
> 
> JJ


 
  
 And this is why I think the Akiko Triple AC mounted inside and modified to be soldered directly to the grounding point inside the chasis of the RN3 offers a huge benefit to the SQ that I am hearing.
  
 Also, the label/sticker on the Akiko is equal to the Wacky Chips in which it controls the EMI/RFI emissions inside the RN3.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah I saw mention of the Akiko sticker on the canister/sticks as functioning like the WAQy chips.
  
 There is scant information but they do seem to help.
  
 JJ


----------



## atomicbob

johnjen said:


> I took a mess of voltage readings from my RN3 and I'm writing it all up.
> The voltages are printed on the main PS board.
> 
> So basically it needs +5v, and ±15v, and 51v and has 3 ground connections for a total of 8 wires in the ribbon cable.
> ...


 
 Looking forward to the write up on this.
  
 My guess is that Focusrite designed one power supply to cover all the product variations. It is costly to get a power supply through UL, CSA, TUV, etc. -AB


----------



## Torq

atomicbob said:


> Looking forward to the write up on this.
> 
> My guess is that Focusrite designed one power supply to cover all the product variations. It is costly to get a power supply through UL, CSA, TUV, etc. -AB


 

 That was my first thought as well ...
  
 With it's guts splayed on the bench, I don't see all the taps actively used in the RN3 ... but it's late, and I'be been drinking/writing/soldering (etc.) ...


----------



## Middy

Have you asked them via Email for advice?


----------



## Torq

middy said:


> Have you asked them via Email for advice?


 

 To whom, and what, are you referencing?


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Have you asked them via Email for advice?


 
 For us dyed in the wool tweakers asking for help is a sign of weakness and lack of skill sets.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm reminded of the famous line that goes…
  
 Badges,
 Badges?
 We don't need no stink'n badges.
 https://youtu.be/TFwprS_L6tg
  
 Besides between the brain trust we all have at our disposal here, we can probably figure it out.
 And most likely they (Focusrite) much like Schiit, will hold to their mantra, "there are no serviceable parts inside", which is code for you shouldn't even be opening up the case to begin with…
  
 The one factor that does come with this level of poking about inside these boxes, is to take full and complete responsibility for any and all activity, both good and 'bad', as in "Oh SCHIIT, well that's gunna cost me…"
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

atomicbob said:


> Looking forward to the write up on this.
> 
> My guess is that Focusrite designed one power supply to cover all the product variations. It is costly to get a power supply through UL, CSA, TUV, etc. -AB


 
 Good to see you 'on the boards' A…!.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was getting ready to see how you were doing…
  
 Yeah that thought (standardized parts) did cross my mind as well, but then I thought that why go to the trouble of actually bringing 51volts onto the mainboard in the 1st place.
 I mean it would be easy enough to use a 7 wire ribbon cable.
 Still I may have been 'easier' and cheaper just to stay with all of the same parts…
  
 So I guess I'll have to see if that 51volts is actually used, or not.
  
 And those noise readings?
 They are running about 0.1volts (P-P),
 everywhere…
 And while that is a relatively small voltage, that is well above the noise floor, even for a strictly digital device.
  
 I've got some more readings to take and work up a comparison of sorts.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> That was my first thought as well ...
> 
> With it's guts splayed on the bench, I don't see all the taps actively used in the RN3 ... but it's late, and I'be been drinking/writing/soldering (etc.) ...


 
 I saw your PRT write up 'over there', and threw my 2¢ into the mix as well.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So if the 51volt rail is unused that makes for a much simpler replacement LPS.
 ±15 and 5 volts is common enough and many 'lab grade' PSU's have these voltages as standard.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Ah it nothing against you guys...I have learned a little selfish altruism. Quid pro qo.... They give you advice you let them know the result... they get free engineering results you get some short cuts for trying an external supply...

I get free advice here all the time no shame in asking.... You guys enjoy helping... why stop others doing the same?
In fact I just finished my version of the Akiko stick dual 3 pin XLR wired to pin 1.....
Because of here I am going to try a DIY magic stones grounding box.. 2 kilos of tourmaline and quartz and a copper plate.. Just to see if it works . .. ..
Probably just an receiver adding nice noise..Not some magnetic induced pizo electric filter.. Not paying $5000 for one. $80 diy tops....
Good luck regardless with the Rednet..
Can't wait for your results..


----------



## johnjen

To the Pro Audio guys us audiophool types are probably more of an annoyance than a source of 'reliable' tech info.
  
 Of course there are those with feet in both camps (AB, torq) even so, us 'out there' types are pushing the envelope and our priorities usually don't match very well with the pro audio guys.
 Even so if/when we figure out a gen-U-ine step up in SQ and it is 'easily' incorporated into their designs they _might_ implement it, but this is rare.
 And all we really need to do is post our work somewhere where they can find it…
  
 We be the illegitimate children of the pro audio crowd and the step children in the consumer audio world as well.
  
 And we are pushing the edge of the envelope all over the map…
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Not that ever thought you guys need help just a free shortcut to get faster results. .Just me thinking I'd love to jump in and help...I suppose others aren't as generous as your good selves... I hope it goes well regardless JJ


----------



## johnjen

The thing is, some of us are used to diving headlong into these sorts of things and fussing with the innerds.
 And because we are rather familiar enough with the means and methods of manufacture these issues are not a big deal.
  
 For instance I'm working on a mod for my Rok amp.
 It will kill my warranty dead'r than a door nail if I pursue it any further, which is a risk I must be willing to take to find out what can be 'Better'.
  
 The same goes for substituting a linear PS in the RedNet boxes.
  
 But these sorts of mods are relatively straight forward, since we aren't re-designing anything.
 Really, all we're doing is cleaning up some (what we see as) untidy messes, because we can.
  
 And besides this is a Hobby and we like to fuss with the knobs, dials, and switches… 
 And as long as the magic smoke doesn't escape we will learn something and keep a smile on our face, instead of a grimace…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Haha..the journey not the destination... .... I did realise... I just walk 10 feet.. smile and ask for help... A conditioned factory rat I am....
Naive but always helpful...
I just need to find jaws for a 30 year old riveting gun....

Kind regards and apologies
Dave


----------



## johnjen

No apologies needed nor necessary.  :thumb
  
 We all are learning here and besides I figure there are probably a few others gleaning tid-bits of insights and understanding from all of this banter.
 And by raising topics for conversations like these many more learn answers to questions they didn't even know they had…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hi JJ, per your recommends awhile back at one of the mini-meet, I'm currently wiring my sound dedicated outlet on the new house on it's own line directly to the box. Using a 20A cable and thinking maybe getting a nicer outlet, any suggestions or other tips while the walls are open to studs? Every little bit of tweak to the line is quite easy at the moment, the layout has my sound system directly behind the panel as well. It's literally a 15ft run at the max and that's just going up and back down to the outlet.

 So a rundown:
 -Dedicated 20A line to the power box
    - thinking of separating the earth ground on it's own for this particular outlet
 -Using medical grade or perhaps audio-grade outlet.
 -Medical or audio grade in wall power line?


----------



## johnjen

The 2 treatments that have always helped are the cryo and cooking.
 Getting the wire cryo'd would be the treatment of choice since it’s a one time thing and once it's 'in the wall' its not gunna be changed.
 Cooking would be a pia to have to keep doing afterwards, so it might not be ideal.
  
 But at this point cryo'ng probably isn't doable due to timing etc.
  
 However do consider using 10gauge romex instead of 12.
 The cost differential is minimal and it should help take the current delivery a bit better.
  
 As for duplex receptacles there are the ≈$50 units then it jumps to the $100 units then the prices go crazy.
 The one thing I deem essential is that it get cryo'd.
 There are a few I have run across that offer cryo'd duplex receptacles and they are in this $50 to $100 range.
  
 I'll look them up and post a bit later with links etc.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I've also read that you can get very good results with sticking a WA Quantum Power chip on the electrical panel.
  
 I use 1 of the Furutech GTX-D NCF rhodium duplex outlet on my 8 outlet power distribution box and the results are phenomenal. But the downside is that it cost almost $300 just for that outlet.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Unfortunately the 12gauge is ran already, it's still better than the 14g 15a I'm currently using with uber cheapo outlets. The Furutech outlet is out of the question, everything is in budget that's going to the house but... cryo-d outlets, which I presume is less more budget friendly, is definitely a possibility since the wires will just be in their boxes until drywall is in.

 What about the separate earth ground line? Does this help keep noise away from the rest of the house or is this poor logic?


----------



## johnjen

The separate ground is one of those experiments I have not done yet so I can't comment based upon experience.
 It could be 'better' but it will also depend upon the voltage difference between the neutral and that separated ground.
 If there is more than ≈ 0.1 volts ac and/or dc it may not be much help.
  
 The biggest single improvement will be that very short run into a dedicated breaker and next will be the cryo'd duplex receptacle.
 The Shunyata receptacle IS cryo'd and costs $100
 There are only a few $50 receptacles and only one that I know of that is cryo'd.
  
 I'll find it and post a bit later.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Here's the Shuntaya but there might be a better distributor for it. I've got a double gang going into one section and I'm wondering if I can fit one Shuntaya and one hospital grade Hubbell in the same box. I may have to wait to fit the Shuntaya until after we've finished since I believe code now requires tamper resistant outlets throughout. I'll be sure to leave slack on the cable to be able to work on it afterwards.

 https://www.thecableco.com/Product/SR-Z1-AC-Outlet?gclid=CJaUpcjVyc8CFUtNfgodTOUBgQ


----------



## johnjen

Duplex receptacles are standardized in terms of size and mounting etc.
 So if it’s a double gang box, 2 duplex receptacles will fit side by side.
  
 And in my experiments I heard no difference between hospital grade and a ¢79 cheepy receptacle.
 But I'd avoid the insert the wire into a small hole as the only wire connection type.
  
 The 'magic' seems to be the cryo'ng although the better surface metals used probably also play a part in the 'better' SQ as well.
 But most of those using exotic metals are the above $100 units (there are exceptions).
  
 But also changing a duplex receptacle later on, is not that big of a deal.
  
 And that shunyata is what I'm running along with a $100 Synergistic Research receptacle.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Any input on the PS Audio receptacle? Magically at $50.


----------



## johnjen

If it's cryo'd it might be a contendah.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Here is a $24 cryo'd hubble.
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/accessories/parts/ac-products/furutech-gtx-d-receptacles/#!/Hubbell-15A-Hospital-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Cryo-Treated/p/23240519/category=2595872
  
 And there is a 25% discount due to the exchange rate.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

SQ Peaks and Dips  (*P&D’s*)

 During a few discussions between several of us, the topic of reaching a SQ of 100% has come up.
  
 What we all noticed was that we often find ourselves exceeding 100%, which was based upon our previous best SQ experience.
 Which means that now we must be at 105% or 115% or even well beyond the *ToP* (Threshold of Perceptibility).
 And this has happened repeatedly of late, what with the steady increase in SQ due to gear and mods and system configuration refinement.
  
 Which means what we consider as the best our system can deliver (100%) keeps improving, getting ‘*Better’*.
 I have noticed that this continual ‘raising of the bar’ has certain characteristics and long term consequences.
  
 As our previous SQ of 100% gets eclipsed and continues to rise, we continue to hear more of the inner details, more of the actual content of the music we know, as it comes to the forefront in our listening sessions.
  
 But the thing is our systems don’t always remain at a SQ of 100%.
 Sometimes they Dip down into 90’s-80’s-70’s etc and then come back up, and sometimes move on past 100%, into a new Peak.
  
 But what I’ve noticed is, as our experience of Peak SQ continues to rise so does the SQ when it Dips below 100%.
 IOW no matter at what level of SQ we are listening to, as the degree of the SQ Peak goes up, so do the less than 100% SQ Dips.
 This makes sense because as we improve our systems, everything gets better, all the time, regardless of where on the scale of SQ we happen to be at any given moment.
  
 Of late AOIP has been the topic and tweak of interest.  To my way of perceiving this tweak, it has removed several CP’s (choke points) in the digital pathway, from our music source (computer etc.) to the DAC.
 These SQ improvements (removal of veils, *CP*’s) were not apparent until they were ameliorated.
 IOW, ofttimes you don’t know it’s there until it has been removed.
  
 This has driven our previous SQ of 100% to new, heartofore unheard heights, and the results are most gratifying.
  
 And as we continue to push the edges of these envelopes higher and higher, I have also noticed it’s easier to determine what contributions to the overall SQ each new tweak makes, but also as fewer and fewer *CP*’s remain, the new baseline also continues to rise.
 This means no matter what we listen to, no matter what degree of SQ we are listening to at any given moment, it becomes all the more engaging, all the more enveloping and harder to remove the HP’s.
  
 I have also noticed that as the system is improved and further *CP*’s are removed, each new tweak sounds like it contributes a disproportionately greater amount of improvement than it seems like it should.
 I attribute this to the fact that as fewer *CP*’s remain, there is less overall change made to the original signal, so we are hearing more and more of the original signal with less ‘added artifacts’, and/or  fewer omissions to the original signal.
 This is turn means less of the original signal is ‘lost’, which in turn means any further tweaks/improvements are ‘competing’ with fewer detrimental changes (*CP*’s) to begin with.
  
 And so each improvement makes up a larger percentage of the remaining deviation from true 100%.
 And so each improvement yields a greater proportional amount of change.
 So in effect these tweaks have not just raised the bar but also raised the bottom of the *TD*’s (Toilet Dump) as well.
  
 IOW as the SQ continues to go up, the depth of the *TD* swirls, lessens.
 Put another way, the magnitude of the Peak to the Dip ratio narrows as more and more *CP*’s are removed and as the SQ rises.
  
 So of course each tweak will have a greater impact upon the SQ overall.
 This can help explain why some attribute, what some would call overly enthusiastic reactions, to seemingly mundane changes such has fuses or cables etc.
  
 However as more and more of the *CP*’s are removed, as more and more of the original signal is allowed to be delivered to us, we do hear more, and so,
 there IS more there, there.
  
 IOW, since we hear more and more of all of the original signal, this is, by definition, ‘*Better*’.

 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

IMO, one word comes to mind for me anyways and the one that I am always after in my audio journey is 'REALISM'.
  
 This is the one thing that I have been trying to achieve when I started building my system and the discovery of the RN3 AOIP has gotten me 1 step closer to it.
 And lately, the addition of the 3rd Mutec+3 USB, Oyaide silver wire AES/EBU cables, and the addition of the Akiko canister inside the RN3 plus a couple of tweaks on the Power Distribution outlet, well I am happy to say that I am almost there.
  
 JJ, I think you need to hear this now. Compared to the SQ that you heard from it at the last meet, I am pretty sure that this time, the rig will bring a big grin on your face as it is bringing to me right now.


----------



## johnjen

I look forward to hearing what you have come up with!
  
 JJ


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## johnjen

*Power Supply Noise Measurements of my RN3 with Comparisons and Analysis.*
  
 This set of measurements is based upon the very same Tektronix Scope using the 3 ways of measuring these voltage spikes and transients that I used in the SMPS vs LPS post.
 And so by example here are the measurements for the SMPS vs LPS comparison I made previously.
 And I have included measurements of the 2 PSU’s while running the active load.
  
                       *Fixed Resistor                     Active Load                    % Change of Active vs Fixed Load*
*PSU      Aver     Norm    Envelope    Aver    Norm    Envelope     ∆Average    ∆Normal    ∆Envelope*
*SMPS* 3.54mv    20mv    197mv         36mv    54mv    58mv             x10/9.8%     x1.8/55%     x3.4/29%
*LPS*    1.26mv    7.3mv    40mv          35mv    35mv   *54/39mv**     x27/4%        x4.8/21%     x1.4/74%  *x1/98%*
 Note these are P-P voltages not RMS numbers.
  
** These 2 measurements in bold (54/39)* reflect the inclusion/exclusion difference of several small in influence voltage spikes using the Envelope measurement.
 Notice how when we ‘ignore’ these spikes the difference between the resistor load and the active circuit load is negligible.
 IOW the noise added by the active load is effectively being removed when using a LPS, when compared to a fixed resistor load.
 Compare this with the SMPS unit which has ≈3.5 times the amount of noise as measured in the envelope mode which adds up all the noise thru a time slice.
  
 So next we have the results of the measurements I took of my RN3.
  
 The RN3 has 8 wires running from the SMPS to the mainboard.
 This is the pin out for the 8 wire ribbon cable (as marked on the main PS board), assuming left to right numbering based on reading the voltage labels.
  
*Pin #   Voltage    Average    Normal    Envelope*
*1*           +5            11 mv         91 mv       106 mv
*2*           +5            83 mv         91 mv       106 mv
*3*         0 (grnd)     101 mv       91 mv        106 mv
*4*          +15           78 mv         92 mv        92 mv
*5*        0 (grnd)       99 mv        96 mv         99 mv
*6*          -15            66 mv        78 mv         95 mv
*7*        0 (grnd)       90 mv        90 mv         90 mv
*8*          +51           19 mv         67 mv         84 mv
  
 Note these readings include 24µs spikes (≈42KHz).
  
 For the most part all of this noise is about the same in amplitude, with few exceptions, no matter what circuit is being measured.
 And these readings are made while the RN3 is operating and passing a signal thru its circuits.
  
 Also note that the ground has as much voltage noise (and more) as the noise resting on top of the voltage rails.
 This suggests that the ground has an elevated amount of noise which has been added to the PS rails, since they operate in reference to ground.
  
 And these readings were made while the load itself (the active circuits in the RN3) was adding its own noise into the ground and PS itself.
  
 NOTE: When I measured the voltages supplied by the SMPS under no active load conditions, the voltages were ramping up and down.
 IOW there were no meaningful dc nor ac measurements obtainable.
 Which means this SMPS NEEDS a load in order to function properly.
 This is a known functional behavior of most if not all, SMPS operation.
  
 So I next measured the ground voltages both powered on and off.
 This gives a measure of the noise on the ground plane, but it doesn’t give us a complete picture of all ground voltages as they exist in the RN3.
  
 Even so it is a relative starting place to measure the ground voltages and see what happens between being on and off.
  
 I measured between the ground terminal at the IEC power receptacle (as close to the source of ac power supplied ground as possible) and the end of the ground wire that connects the lid of the RN3 to the chassis ground point that also connects to the very same IEC receptacle terminal,
 with the power cable plugged in…
  
 With the power off/on
*Power      Average    Normal    Envelope    Spike/Frequency*
*Off*             1.8mv         6mv           60mv          16µs/62.5KHz
*On*               3mv         12mv         120mv          20µs/50KHz

 IOW these ‘baseline’ readings, with the power off, just about double when the power is supplied.
  
 Which tells me that the SMPS adds, (relatively) a significant amount of noise to the ground plane, which while still not large, is well within the voltage range of signals we will hear.
  
 So all in all, SMPS’s do contribute a fair amount of noise in the range of voltages that we can hear in our headphones.
  
 And using the example of the LPS and how it tended to reduce the amount of noise that the active digital circuits added to the noise on the PS voltage rails and to ground.  And it would be a safe assumption that we would see similar results if we were to replace the SMPS with a LPS in these RedNet boxes as well.

 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I'm taking a bit of a break from the series of related posts and performing some experiments and such.
  
 But mostly I made a slew of changes all in fairly rapid succession and I am now just coming out from under all these mods and tweaks and new gear being added etc.
  
 But then of course today, I added an Akiko stick to the new RN3 and Mutec 3+.
 It needs some settling in time.
  
 And I have ≈6 more stacked up, just waiting for the system to fully settle down.
  
 Uh, at this rate I might be waiting for a while…
 And I Still need to take my 800 mods to the next level…
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## forciano

Been looking in to the phase reversal tweak, and don't want to mess with the cable on my headphones, I was hoping anyone knew were to buy an adapter.
 I'm running unbalanced, hopefully its technically possible.


----------



## johnjen

Yes it possible, but your headphones need to be wired with 4 wires and they need to be able to be wired separately, ie the grounds or - polarity wires, shouldn't be connected together anywhere except at the TRS connector, (which is standard practice).
  
 You could perform this tweak at the TRS connector which would mean they would be 'permanently' wired with one channel out of phase WRT the other channel, with no chance of running the headphones 'normally'.
 Or you can add a 4-pin m-f pair of connectors between the TRS and the drivers so you can defeat the phase reversal, one way or another.
  
 We usually recommend that a 4-pin XLR set of m-f connectors be added to the headphone cable and a short phase reversal adapter cable (using another set of m-f 4-pin xlr connectors with a short piece of cable between them) be made so that your headphones can be used 'normally' as well as phase reversed.
  
 For example, I reversed the wiring to my 800's so they are permanently phase reversed.
 If I want to use them in a 'normal' system I must use a phase reversal cable between my 800's and the amp in that system.
  
 Of course you could run it the other way, where the phase reversal cable would be used all the time unless you are using your headphones on a normal system in which case the phase reversal 'adapter' cable would be not used.
  
 As for obtaining an adapter, I have a few here that will work, assuming a m-f set of 4-pin XLR connectors are already wired into your headphone cable, as mentioned above.
  
 And since I see that you live sorta close by, I can help add those 4-pin XLR connectors to your headphone cable as well.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## forciano

Thanks for the offer JJ, the problem is that none of my gear can use XLR. 
I'm currently running bimby ----> project sunrise III ---> hd800. 
And it's my understanding that I could only use XLR if I use an adaptor (not sure if that's the right word).


----------



## johnjen

Adding the XLR pair to your existing cable, then allows your HP's to be plugged into an XLR to TRS adapter so you can use your HP's on your single ended setup.
  
 It's like maximum flexibility to be able to use your HP's in any setup, balanced, or single ended, phase reversed or not.
  
 JJ


----------



## forciano

If I understood correctly then a cable like this one one be needed to get started https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Headphone-Upgrade-Balance-ZY-055/dp/B00MTB71SW
 Looks like I might be able to buy them for $100 from a head-fi member.


----------



## johnjen

That'll work.
 Then what needs to be added would be 2 additional adapter cables.
 1. a XLR Female 4-pin to TRS so you can use your HP's on an unbalanced amp.
 2. a XLR Female 4-pin to XLR Male 4-pin as the phase reversal cable.
  
 These can be made from the same cable, which would shorten the original cable by ≈1ft or less.
 But you would gain all the length back (plus a bit more) if you were using this cable, phase reversed and plugged into a single ended amp.
  
 Also note, in order to make the 2 additional adapter cables you'll need, 1) more XLR Male 4-pin connector and 2) more XLR Female 4-pin connectors.
 These aren't very expensive depending upon which connectors you choose.
 Neutrik XLR 4-pin mated pairs run ≈$10/pair (+s&h)
  
 Or you can opt for the high priced Furutech units for ≈$56/pair
  
 Or I have a few phase reversal cables already made up, which would mean only having to make up the XLR Female 4-pin to TRS for your unbalanced amp.
  
 Choices, choices…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Experiments run amouk R-us…
  
 So as per usual I was experimenting with what if possibilities, aka trying out different combinations and ways of using gear…
  
 This time I was using the Mutec 3+ as both a re-clocker and as a source of a Word Clock signal to synch it to the RN3 so everyone would be marching along in lock step.
 It worked for ≈20 minutes then the music stopped playing.
  
 I went Hmmmmm,
 what is going on…
 So after trying 3 different BNC cables (thanks Atomic Bob for the extra BNC cables) to feed the Word Clock into the RN3 and getting the same results, I contacted Focusrite figuring I had a defective unit somehow…
  
 Well, see, it's like this…
  
 By the time we (Atomic Bob and I) played around and more or less duplicated the same results on 2 sets of different gear, we figure we have a handle on what is going on.
 AB figures there is a Word Clock Feed back loop creating a continually growing latency offset which in about 20 minutes makes the RN3 loose its lock on the Word Clock, and so the music stops.
  
 Hmmmmm.
  
 Now this isn't a 'critical' function in order to play music, but I did want to determine if any of the available ways of synching these 2 units together would result in 'Better' SQ.
 Only what we have found is an unintended interaction that until I stumbled upon it, didn't seem to have been noticed by anyone else.
 Which I find odd, because these 2 units have been used together for quite some time, but this Word Clock feedback loop seems to have been missed, up until now.
  
 Hmmmmm.
  
 'Stay tuned for more on this breaking story of mystery and intrigue…' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## forciano

JJ - I think going with the cable you already own might be my best bet for now.
  
 Which means the next step is a cable like this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10cm-Audio-1-4-6-35mm-Male-to-4-Pin-XLR-Female-Balanced-TRS-Headphone-Adapter-/121669489262
  
 Send me a PM so we can talk about the details, if your still willing to part with the cable.
  
  
 Thanks


----------



## johnjen

Will do.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Update on the Mutec 3+ and RN3 word clock conundrum.
  
 1st off let me reiterate that NEEDING to have the 3+ act as both the Word Clock & Re-Clocker at the same time, for the RN3, is not mandatory.
 And as it turns out it may not be a viable option, unless a 2nd master word clock is added to the mix.
  
 This is a situation where the mutec is 'stuck' in the middle while trying to perform 2 functions that are some what tied together at the hip and ankles.
 But as a result it stumbles trying to keep up, and the conclusion AB has come to is, it's not a 'fault' per-se since it is doing what it's supposed to do.
  
 So the bottom line is the Mutec is properly doing it's job but is caught in the middle between 2 functions that create a feedback loop that creates a continually increasing offset.
 They probably never considered using it this way, (which is why it seems like we were the ones to find this fly in the soup).
 So I'll contact Mutec and let them know what we have found.
  
 Feedback like this from the field, along with a degree of investigation and a grasp of the situation, can be very helpful for any manufacturer.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So as a DIY'r I have come to appreciate the truly hard core (will try ANYTHING), vs. those who will only go so far, vs. those who will change cables, and maybe a fuse but that's about it.
  
 I am usually in the 2nd category, especially with my credo of always wanting to be able to return the unit under the scalpel, back to stock.
 So some tweaks are just not 'on the table' so to speak.
  
 Until today,

  
 WHAT HAVE  I DONE………!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, for one, this single, yet not so dainty tweak has already yielded a SQ shift and in the 'correct' direction.
  
 Just like I like…
  
 I changed the XLR connectors on my balanced interconnects and installed Oyide Focus 1, Rhodium over Silver over Bronze connectors.
 I made a mess and even broke one of my decent dykes.
  
 The stock Neutrik silver connectors were a bitch and 3/4'rs to remove, essentially forcing me to literally tear them apart using dykes and assorted other implements of destruction.
 But I managed to replace the decent stock connectors with 'Better' metallurgy, which in my past experiments have yielded 'Better' results.
  
 And with just 4hrs run time thus far, the bass definition, inner detail and focus everywhere, have all taken a step up.
  
 For example I'm listening to a Battlestar Galactica sound track from the 3rd year and they keep whacking away on this big drum which in turn lights up the entire soundstage where this was recorded.  This excitation of the acoustic space takes a while to dissipate (for those who are familiar, the Rt-60 must be in the 1-3 second range, down low).
  
 So now, I can easily hear the drum as a separate 'voice' from the room itself, where as before they were closely linked together especially when the drum hits were closely spaced together (the room essentially doesn't stop ringing).
  
 And this is but one of several easily noticed changes at this early stage.
  
 And now that I have replaced the unaccommodating stock connectors, I can as easily replace these metallurgically superior XLR's with something else, but if these changes continue to manifest with these sorts of improvements, I see little motivation to even want to proceed any further.
  
 And there is yet more to come as I have more connectors inbound.
  
 (Cue the mad scientist over the edge laughter…)
 BWHAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Scaleability update and status report
  
 So a ways back I achieved Gen-2 status with the mods I am applying to my 800's.
  
 Tonight I 'tightened up' the design and implementation just a tad, and this bumped up the level of the mod to Gen-2.5 status.
 And this upgrade also includes the upgrade of the 4-pin XLR connector.
  
 The initial gains I have noticed have to do with dimensional cues, ie. placement of each 'voice' within the soundstage, which has taken a step up, as has the ability to differentiate background and backup vocals from the lead singer.
  
 And I still have a whole nuther level of tweak to experiment with.
 But I need to wait until I complete all of the other mods and tweaks already in the cue 1st, before I attempt the next level of mod to my 800's.
  
 That is unless I get a wild hair and 'Just DO IT'…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Analysis of Different Resistance Values of the HP Cable as a % of the Resistance of the Drivers.

 So I was quite contentedly listening to music when a ‘random’ thought popped up and onto my ’screen of awareness’, all of a sudden like…
  
 And I figure this is probably ‘old’ news to some, still this is an interesting examination of the relationship between the load of the drivers vs. the cable assembly.
  
 So what % of the driver Ω do our HP cable assemblies contribute to the total load our amps ‘see’?  
 So the next thing I did was to haul out the old HP-42 calculator facsimile app on my ipod and crunch some numbers,
 To wit…
  
 % of driver resistance
*Cable Ω    350Ω            %          625Ω           %        mean%
 1.5Ω*        0.004286    .428%    0.002400    .240%    .334%
*1.0Ω*        0.002857    .285%    0.001600    .160%    .223%
*0.5Ω*        0.001429    .143%    0.000800    .080%    .112%
*0.1Ω*        0.000286    .029%    0.000160    .016%    .022%
*.05Ω*        0.000143    .014%    0.000080    .008%    .011%
*.01Ω*        0.000029    .003%    0.000016    .002%    .002%
  
 To summarize and simplify…
*Cable Ω    mean % of total load
 1.5Ω*          ≈ .33%
*1.0Ω *         ≈ .22%
*0.5Ω*          ≈ .11%
*0.1Ω *         ≈ .02%
*0.05Ω *       ≈ .01%
*0.01Ω *       ≈ .002%
  
 Notice how the %’s drop digit’s when the cable’s Ω drops by 1/2 of the listed Ω in steps below 0.5Ω…
 And with a cable Ω of 0.1Ω the % is ≈ 0.02% and when the cable Ω drops to 0.05Ω the % again drops by 1/2, down to 0.01%
  
 So what does this mean?
 And why look at this in the first place?
  
 Well as the resistance of the cable assembly (wire and connectors) is reduced, the less the effect the cable has on changing what is delivered to the drivers.
 Now, is this just a numbers game?
 Well in one sense, yes it is.
 But wait there is more…
  
 This first set of numbers were based upon a 350 to 625Ω range of resistances of the HD-800, as but one (rather familiar) example at one extreme.
 Now lets look at the other end of the resistances we use.
 The LCD-x’s which are a ≈25Ω load.
*Cable Ω    25Ω load      %*
*1.5Ω*           0.06            6%
*1.0Ω*           0.04            4%
*0.5Ω*           0.02            2%
*0.1Ω*           0.004       0.4%
*0.05Ω *        0.002       0.2%
*0.01Ω*         0.0004    0.04%
 These are the %’s for different cable resistances for 25Ω headphones
  
 And since the Ω for these drivers is much closer to the Ω values of the cable itself, the % numbers will be higher because the ratio favors a larger % number.
 But even here as the Ω of the cable drops below 0.5Ω, the % of Ω the cable adds to the total load the amp ‘sees’ drops into the 10ths of 1%.
 I suspect that this ratio of cable to driver Ω as the cable Ω drops to 0.5Ω and less, could help to explain why some cables may sound ‘Better’ than others.
 And remember it’s the whole cable Ω, the combination of both the wire and connectors Ω that seems pertinent here.
  
 So one way to think of this is, as the delivery ‘system’ (the cable assembly) has less and less total Ω  (contributes less to the total load the amp drives) i.e. the more the cable is out of the picture, the less it’s altering the signal sent vs. the signal delivered to the driver itself.
  
 And granted we are dealing with rather small %’s of an Ω of contribution to the total load.
 But then we are also dealing with rather small voltages and even smaller amounts of current, which means the less the net effect is made in delivering the power of that very small signal.
  
 Just something to think about.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Some may identify with this.
  
 Ya know when they play a tuba and it reaches way down low and the notes get 'flappy'?
 Like you can hear his lips flapping in the mouth piece?
  
 While listening to The Planets, Uranus, in a 'busy' section, the tuba went 'flappy' and obviously so.
  
 I just recently completed yet another metallurgical shift, and a simplification of the power cable, that feeds my amp.
 And it's only been 1 day…
  
 And I still have the Dac's power cable to retro-fit with this same metallurgical step up as well.
  
 Interesting Times In Audio Indeed!
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Hey all apologies for not posting for a while... I am in limbo waiting for my Ethers upgrade....
JJ has turned me into an Evil Ruler as I have gone "Power" mad.......
John Swenson mentioned the Topaz and with JJ educating me with power benefits.. I took the plunge with some help on CA and got an Air Link balanced isolation transformer.. a Uk Toroidal
...I'll do links in a bit..
As a bedroom setup I got a a DC offset filter incase of trans noise.. 
The very low hum is gone and sound has improved on top of the Iso trans...
The DC blocker is my bargin of the year
60€ and very well made....

My last power spend was a Isotek plug filter... I was worried that this would kill some of the improvements but so far so good.... 
A big investment for me but a big improvement to SQ...
Thank you for the help and guidance as always...

Cheers
Dave

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/balanced_power_supply/standard_balanced_power_supplies/BPS1500/


Cheaper with out the case but this DC blocker is very well made solid and works fantastic. .
My top audio item of the year...

http://www.atlhifi.com/shop/fully-assembled-devices/dc-blocker-trap-filter-assembled-in-case/


http://www.futureshop.co.uk/isotek-evo3-isoplug-p-6777.html?osCsid=ddsm35178d9o2e92seqrlps6t6#.WEL46MunzqA

All deoxited polished and sanded.....


----------



## johnjen

That's really kewl.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So is it a true balanced ac mains to your gear?
 Not a 'hot' and a neutral circuit to power the system, but 2) 115vac legs?
 I've heard that those are a wonderful thing.
  
 And the DC blocker looks like a filter using big capacitors across the ac mains.
 This should help with bad power factor and noise on the ac mains.
  
 And that isoplug looks to be using a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor), probably a 2nd generation version.
 I also have one plugged in just up stream from my equipment, between the panel and my gear.
 They can really help with hi-energy, fast noise spikes.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

It is a case of I never knew it was there until it was gone kinda thing...
The thread on CA picked up on surplus Topaz/ Elgar transformers that John Swenson uses. Fairly cheap for kit in this game but moving towards your skill level in competent electrical knowledge.. The above units having a 0.0005 inner winding capacitance...
His idea being balanced for common mode rejection with pre balanced filter... Any filtering pre balanced Iso trans.. and a simple power strip post....

The DC offset filter is the star of the show....It just opened up what I thought was a great improvement....
I played safe with this off the shelf iso trans solution.... The DC bias filter just tunes it in for Cents and is just really well made....
I got my power company and power utility to re do my incoming power and new power meter....No change that I could hear but I feel a little safer...
You know I know nothing about electrics and I find it hard to describe sonics... The Transformer and DC/ common mode filter have leveraged what my DAC Amp has been designed to do..
This kind of investment stays when the future upgrades happen...
Just keep inspiring us JJ.. 
Next year a dedicated line and a new breaker box..

A note though...your power is like a personality and unique to your home..
These improvements may have less or greater change than I did but we'll worth the price IMHO... I just wish I had this out of the box...


----------



## gefski

For those interested in AOIP, I just posted my review of the Atterotech unDAES-O.


----------



## Torq

gefski said:


> For those interested in AOIP, I just posted my review of the Atterotech unDAES-O.


 

 Linky?!


----------



## gefski

torq said:


> Linky?!




http://www.head-fi.org/products/atterotech-undaes-o-dante-aes-tx-interface/reviews/17571


----------



## ericr

Thanks Glen, a nice review!

By the sonic aspects you mention it seems we value similar audio traits. I would love to hear the DT880 with your gear and am also wondering if this Atterotech unit will similarly benefit the Halo Spring DAC (as I ordered the Level 1 version on BF).

-E


----------



## Middy

Thanks for the review...Dante seems a bit scary but now in my sights for next year...I am glad it helped...
Happy Holidays listening...


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> For those interested in AOIP, I just posted my review of the Atterotech unDAES-O.


 
  
 Nice review indeed!
  
 It will be interesting to see/hear if any of us can hear any differences between the RedNet boxes and this Atterotech unit.
 But something tells me it will probably be slight, at best.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

middy said:


> Thanks for the review...Dante seems a bit scary but now in my sights for next year...I am glad it helped...
> Happy Holidays listening...


 
 Yeah totally 'new' stuff can seem daunting and this setup is no exception.
 But it isn't THAT hard, and there is plenty of help here in several threads on headfi.
  
 Oh and be sure to keep us posted as your new power distribution system settles in.
 I figure you might hear improvements continue to surprise you as the hrs accumulate.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Ok so a 'progress report' on the latest series of tweaks.
  
 The connectors I replaced on my power cable that feeds my amp are finally (504hrs) starting to reach a peak in SQ.
 I figure they may take even more time, since this isn't THE peak yet.
 Big Poppa 'alerted' me to this possibility (of needing even more time to fully settle in), and he was right.
  
 I'm approaching *REALNESS* but this time with even more real than ever before and I still have the power cable that feeds my dac to modify using these same connectors.
  
 One significant factor of my mod for the amp's power cable is, I eliminated an adapter that was in between the ac power cable the the amp.
 Originally the ac cable was terminated with an IEC 20amp connector and my amp has an IEC 15amp connector, which necessitated a 'step down' adapter.
 I figure simplifying this connection contributed in some way to the SQ improvements I'm hearing.
  
 And when I add these 'better' connectors to the dac power cable I might be able to better determine how much is just due to metallurgy vs. reducing the number of contact patches from the ac power source to the load itself, or not…
  
 And I have a window of time before the next round of experiments get started (adding a LPS to my RN3), so I might add the next level of internal tweaks to my 800's to see if it will take them to gen-3 status, or not.
  
 Yeah I'm having some fun now…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## gefski

middy said:


> Thanks for the review...Dante seems a bit scary but now in my sights for next year...I am glad it helped...
> Happy Holidays listening...




If I can do it...

For me it was intimidating from the outside with new terminology, and the Dante world involves huge installations with many channels and devices. Once I bought it, I was looking at just another box in the same old simple chain, just requiring me to learn how to use the Dante software. BTW Dante has great videos, short, one small subject at a time.

Now it's glitch free; if I shut it down, pull it out, and put it back in, it's recognized and ready to rock in a few seconds.


----------



## Middy

I am still new to this game...just because I post a lot.. I am just a fog horn guessing and trying my best...
My spend limit is about up but I have had a great year.. good advice here a nice guy JJ.. has made that journey fun and educational.... I use my phone through a 5V battery bypass ifi ipurifier Intona UAPP App to my Brooklyn...
My kit is by my bed so no great chain from a PC..

Dante may be my next peak next year..


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Nice review indeed!
> 
> It will be interesting to see/hear if any of us can hear any differences between the RedNet boxes and this Atterotech unit.
> But something tells me it will probably be slight, at best.
> ...




Thanks!

Bob and I did a fun a/b between RN16 and unDAES-O last week. We enjoyed the listening, but struggled mightily a/b wise, failing to nail down any consistent differences between these two Dante boxes. You wouldn't want to bet your hard earned $ on me doing better than coin tosses. Result was the same whether sourced by windoz/JRiver or OS X/Audirvana+.

Obviously this is one session, not a "final verdict".

Speaking of close comparisons, I heard you had your hands on a Singxer USB box and found it to be very good?


----------



## gefski

ericr said:


> Thanks Glen, a nice review!
> 
> By the sonic aspects you mention it seems we value similar audio traits. I would love to hear the DT880 with your gear and am also wondering if this Atterotech unit will similarly benefit the Halo Spring DAC (as I ordered the Level 1 version on BF).
> 
> -E




That Halo is supposed to be great. Since these AOIP boxes are only concerned with DELIVERY of music files, I expect they could benefit any dac (depending on USB implementation compared to). Huge for me is that it didn't change the tonal balance of my system one bit, just opened one more window. Early comments by muziqboy about AOIP's natural-ness had me interested, but I wasn't prepared for the magnitude of the "window cleaning".


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Bob and I did a fun a/b between RN16 and unDAES-O last week. We enjoyed the listening, but struggled mightily a/b wise, failing to nail down any consistent differences between these two Dante boxes. You wouldn't want to bet your hard earned $ on me doing better than coin tosses. Result was the same whether sourced by windoz/JRiver or OS X/Audirvana+.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah he (Bob) and I did a comparison between his D16 and a SU-1 and the differences were very slight indeed.
 In fact other factors were far more significant than the differences between those 2 boxes.
  
 And then again, like your observation, that was but one series of setups, still, that they were so close is remarkable in and of itself.
  
 JJ


----------



## gefski

ericr said:


> Thanks Glen, a nice review!
> 
> By the sonic aspects you mention it seems we value similar audio traits. I would love to hear the DT880 with your gear and am also wondering if this Atterotech unit will similarly benefit the Halo Spring DAC (as I ordered the Level 1 version on BF).
> 
> -E




Eric, did you get the Holo dac yet, or when is it coming?


----------



## ericr

gefski said:


> Eric, did you get the Holo dac yet, or when is it coming?




Yes! Holo Sring DAC (Level 1) is in hand and the recommended 300-500 hour burn-in has begun.


----------



## Torq

gefski said:


> Eric, did you get the Holo dac yet, or when is it coming?


 
  
  


ericr said:


> Yes! Holo Sring DAC (Level 1) is in hand and the recommended 300-500 hour burn-in has begun.


 
  
 I'm hoping both of you will be able to join the Spring L1-2-3 (etc.) DAC-off in January (right now it's looking like the weekend of the 14th).
  
 Should have all the Spring variations, Yggdrasil, and some interesting amps and cans on hand ...


----------



## Middy

Don't know if you have read here for some meet impressions..

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showthread.php?t=30922
Happening: Holo Spring 3 vs. Yiggy vs. Codex vs. 2Qute

Power matters I have found, If people have an isolation transformer DC bias traps common mode ect...
Interesting to see what really leverages the DAC Verse thier internal power implementation....
Just a thought as another test. As the best DAC may be hidden a few layers down....

Cheers
Dave


----------



## ericr

torq said:


> I'm hoping both of you will be able to join...




That weekend looks good for me.

Thanks!


----------



## gefski

torq said:


> I'm hoping both of you will be able to join the Spring L1-2-3 (etc.) DAC-off in January (right now it's looking like the weekend of the 14th).
> 
> Should have all the Spring variations, Yggdrasil, and some interesting amps and cans on hand ...




Sounds fun, thanks!


----------



## gefski

Dante ethernet small glitch solved (I guess).

After having the unDAES-O for a week or so, I noticed a brief (1 full second) muting in the music. So infrequent (once or twice in a 3 hr session) that it took me a long time to decide it was worth trying to fix. So, without going into huge detail, here is the bulk of work done to eliminate possibilities.

On both ripped files and Tidal streaming? Yup.
Dante latency settings.
Audirvana+ settings, especially RAM allocation for tracks vs. OS.
A+ vs. iTunes. 
iMac settings.
Cable connections.
Because of the infrequency of the problem, this is a lot of fiddling over days.

Remembering I had purchased 6' and 15' BJC Cat6 ethernet cables, and some vague memory of discussions somewhere about "too short" digital cabling, I replaced the 6' with the 15'. That was 4 days ago. Have not heard any dropouts. So here are my thoughts about possibilities:

1) My setup doesn't "like" the 6' cable length.
2) There is a flaw or damage in the 6' cable. (Both bought at same time, each with a BJC test report)
3) Nothing is fixed; I just have missed the dropouts and they will return.

Comments or thoughts are welcome.

Still loving (more than ever) this interface!!!!


----------



## johnjen

Did you try to clean the ethernet connections (male and female)?
 Just a little dab'll do ya of dexoit gold.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's rare, but sometimes crud can find its way into the female connector and get lodged there.
 Or it could be that that 6' cable has problems, just as you suggest.
  
 Just to note, I'm running 6" and 1' (cheap) ethernet cables with my FMC transceivers, from my Mac and then into the RN3.
 IOW it may have nothing to do with length.
  
 JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Did you try to clean the ethernet connections (male and female)?
> Just a little dab'll do ya of dexoit gold.  :atsmile:
> 
> It's rare, but sometimes crud can find its way into the female connector and get lodged there.
> ...




No didn't clean the connections, did the wiggle and re-plug tests. Good idea though. The cables and unDAES-O are new, the Mac connection is not. I always clean new RCAs and speaker cables, should do these as well.

This little glitch has been dificult, as I can't immediately repeat the problem, it might not show up for hours.


----------



## atomicbob

gefski said:


> Dante ethernet small glitch solved (I guess).
> 
> *edit*





> 1) My setup doesn't "like" the 6' cable length.
> 2) There is a flaw or damage in the 6' cable. (Both bought at same time, each with a BJC test report)
> 3) Nothing is fixed; I just have missed the dropouts and they will return.
> 
> ...


 
 The 6 foot length should not be an issue. More likely there is an intermittent issue with the 6 foot cable, if that is the problem. However ...
  
 Dante appears to be somewhat sensitive to system page faults. I can create this problem, at will, on a memory constrained system and then introduce a large demand for memory (google chrome) to hear dropouts until the pagefaults cease.
  
 On a different topic, Atterotech appears to have been very involved in Audanate's development of Dante.


----------



## johnjen

Update on the last mod I made to my ac power cable.
  
 Currently I have over 860hrs and these connectors still haven't peaked yet.
 BigPoppa tells me it may take 1200 hrs to fully settle in, which means I'm roughly 2/3rds of the way there.
  
 And while the SQ is marvelous with a wonderful sense of fluidity to the music, it hasn't come into full focus with bass that stuns and the tLFF hasn't lowered to previous low levels.
 Yet.
 There are hints and approaches to impressive acoustic experiences here and there, but the 'whole' hasn't 'snapped' into focus with a corresponding increase in *REALNESS* that truly is compelling, as MusiqBoy has previously attested.
  
 So it may well take all of the 1200hrs to reach a new peak in SQ.
 And I still have the dac's ac power cable to upgrade as well.
  
 And in other developments…
 My triple output PSU is due in tomorrow for my RN3 upgrade experiment.
  
 And I have figured out a potentially significant refinement to my 800 mods.
 This should elevate them to gen-3 or perhaps even gen-4 status, I hope.
  
 Meanwhile I'm accumulating the hrs on these connectors and enjoying the results even if they haven't reached their peak yet, as the SQ is simply lovely.
 But I haven't hit the degree of SQ where ALL of my music is as anew.
  
 That might just blow my mind!
  
  
 YEEEEHaaawww
 As I'm wont to say…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ
 ps.  Anyone in the Seattle area might just consider making it a point to make the next local meet where MusiqBoy will bring his setup, so you can hear his rig.
  
 REALNESS is a degree of SQ that if you get a chance to hear it, and you miss it, you'll probably kick your self,
 for a while…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And most likely I'll have my 800's available to be plugged in as well.
  
 A statement made the last time we did this was, (I'm paraphrasing) '800's aren't supposed to be able to do that'.
  
 pps. blossom action is kicking in and it's 4am and I have to get up earlier than normal and go work on our CR-V…
 I don't want to go to sleep, the music has me and I don't want to let go…
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

JJ,
  
 Can't wait to hear the results on your LPS mod for the RN3.
  
 The Akiko Triple mod that I did to the RN3 has reached it's peak for awhile now and I have been enjoying a degree of *REALISM* that I have not heard before and to be honest, I don't even know how much more REAL it can get. Even when watching bluray movies thru JRMC with the HD800 and all the mods applied to it, the soundtracks and sound effects are so real and immersive that it adds more to the enjoyment of watching a film.
  
 The HD800's with all the mods (PRT, SSBB, and Sonarworks) in my rig is the best sound in HP that I have heard compared to the HE1K that I hardly listen to anymore.
  
 Compared to the last time when you heard it at the last meet and now, it has taken (as you have posted several times) a Mother May I Step Up in SQ.
  
 Waiting for Big Poppa to post the next meet.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
 I do look forward to hearing your setup, and I have a question or 2 about your NUC setup as well.
  
*REALISM* for me, is now so compelling that it's like putting SuperDuperGlue on steroids.
  
 And as for better than what we now are enjoying, I do truly wonder how far we can take all of this, as the bar keeps getting raised with all to much regularity it seems.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

The only other thing that I might try next year is to re-purchase a Startech USB2.0 to Gigabit Lan Extender. I used to have this before during the Bottlehead meet and was the one that got me to thinking to go straight from Ethernet instead of usb>ethernet>usb which is what the Startech is. Thus, the search began that eventually got me to the RN3.

There has been an improvement in the SQ as Rob has mentioned in his new thread by storing the music files on usb flash drives and connecting it to the Startech REX module like this.

PC > usb cable > Startech LEX module > CAT6 cable > Startech REX module > usb flash drives

I asked him if he tried this with the AOIP setup but he said no since he no longer have it. So I am curious if this will elevate the SQ another notch and the only way to find out is to dive in and try it.

The NUC that I am using is a low powered fanless computer with the OS installed on a M.2 SSD drive and the music files stored on a 2TB SATA laptop hard drive. It's sole purpose is for reproducing music with the occasional movie watching and nothing else which I think is the reason why I never experienced the dropouts, clicks and ticks, and latency issues that other folks are having with AOIP.

And I am with you on the REALISM being so compelling that the SuperDuperGlue is in full effect and makes it real hard for me to hang up the headphones even though it is way past my bedtime. lol


----------



## gefski

Congrats guys! You've now got Mike Moffat interested enough to listen to it (and build something better)!

I knew it sounded very good, but wasn't expecting this complete opening of windows on what Yggy does. Daily living with it -- REALISM indeed. My enthusiastic uDO review is not enthusiastic enough.


----------



## Muziqboy

I am glad that Mike is at least exploring the AOIP path and hopefully will come up with a very good and reasonably priced product.
 Will be good for everyone on the sidelines waiting for a cheaper alternative hopefully.


----------



## ericr

They would sell thousands.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> I am glad that Mike is at least exploring the AOIP path and hopefully will come up with a very good and reasonably priced product.
> Will be good for everyone on the sidelines waiting for a cheaper alternative hopefully.


 
 I kinda figure he's working on a Wyrd on steroids maybe something like a Mutec 3+, only with a twist or 2 in their usually Schiity fashion.
  
 The thing is jumping into the middle of AOIP requires the marriage of ethernet h/w and s/w along with the digital audio h/w and s/w which is as Mike pointed out, a support nightmare just waiting to happen.
  
 But adding a 'box' between source and the dac is eminently doable and also seems like what the Manhatten project is all about as well.
  
 Time will tell.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Congrats guys! You've now got Mike Moffat interested enough to listen to it (and build something better)!
> 
> I knew it sounded very good, but wasn't expecting this complete opening of windows on what Yggy does. Daily living with it -- REALISM indeed. My enthusiastic uDO review is not enthusiastic enough.


 
 I sure hope that Mike M does come up with a suitable enhancement to AOIP in some form or other, as it would certainly lower the cost of implementation of tweako AOIP.
  
 And it seems like the Dante network has a leg up, but it remains unclear if it's their s/w solution or if the majority of the SQ improvement is due to ethernet alone.
  
 But really it's the results and not the devices themselves that is so compelling.
 And there are secrets yet to be unveiled buried deep in all of this.
 And the removal of these layers will potentially be even more compelling since so much has already been removed.
  
 And I figure REALISM will develop 'flavors' or variations as we uncover more and more of just what is truly going on with this digital signal path to the dac.
 And really all of this flies in the face of the expectation that bits are bits and none of this should make any difference,
 only it all does, and to varying degrees.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Ok so status report of the 'extended settling time' for these connectors.
 I'm just shy of 1100hrs and I still haven't reached peak SQ yet.
  
 But the degree of SQ is beyond anon-do and to the degree of being able to describe and explain what I'm hearing in terms of *REALNESS*.
  
 One aspect that is significant is the ability to deliver near instantaneous dynamic acoustical sound pressure, at any frequency.
 This 'trait' is a result of *Coupling* of the entire audio spectrum in such a way that any instrument with a percussive aspect to its sound signature from drums to violins to tambourines to piccolos, all can have a sharp and steep leading edge which has a percussive impact.
  
 But it’s the speed of the percussive impact that is most impressive.
 It happens and is over with before you even noticed it, yet the percussive effect is felt and noticed.
 I attribute this to a lack of smearing of the acoustic energy being created thru time as the music is playing.
  
 Put another way.
 The acoustic pressure that is generated is presented where and as it should be, with a minimal amount of bleed over into where this acoustic energy shouldn't be.
 Focus would be a single word description.
  
 And for the first time I can actually easily hear differences between different sample rates of the same track, which is a renderer issue to be sure.
  
*REALNESS* is simply astounding, no matter how you can describe it or categorize it.
  
 And there are multiple ways of achieving *REALNESS*, it would appear, but a basic aspect is a 'tweako' (AOIP and others) digital audio signal path from the source to the dac.
 I've given up trying to figure out why this approach is so superior to any other approach I have ever heard.
  
 Instead I'm just getting sucked into the music and going with the flow.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

An accidental tweak discovery.
  
 So last night when I was re-arranging my gear, I accidentally bumped and broke the plastic fuse holder on my Theta Dac. Being it a vintage gear, the plastic fuse holder was probably already brittle because of age so the screw cap that holds the fuse would no longer lock and hold the fuse in place. I opened up the dac to see if I can fix it and found out that I would have to order a new fuse holder if I can still find one.
  
 So when I was looking at the internals, an idea came up and I went to work. I unsoldered the two wires from the fuse holder and proceeded to solder them directly to the two ends of the fuse using some silver solder that I have. I covered up the ends with tape to insulate it and used some 3M double sided tape to affix it to the back of the DAC housing. I screwed back the bottom plate of the DAC and plugged it back in to my power distribution block and let it warm up for a couple of hours.
 When I had a listen, I was surprised to hear an increase in Dynamics and lifelike Realism so I guess, that fuse holder was a choke point.
  
 I will leave it like this and will not even bother to replace the fuse holder since the fuse still retain it's functionality.


----------



## Middy

That makes so much sense when you think about it. You can still use the fuse holder as anti vibration a place holder in other equipment.. Nice..
Just use a thicker wire so no heat issues, sometimes getting rid of the fuse isn't an option but this is the next best thing.
Thank you for the tip. Just any safety issues from the experts before I sort out my soldering iron.
oh 1 issue can this be done on higher amp ratings above internal fuses like plugs ?
Good luck
Dave


----------



## johnjen

KEWL!
 Verification and the removal of yet another *CP*, as your findings mirrors my own findings, albeit from a different direction.
  
 IOW I used silver paste on the contacts of the fuse holder where they contact the fuse itself.
 This also resulted in a '*Better*' degree of SQ, so I can see where soldering directly to the fuse could be a step up yet again.
  
 But be careful when you solder to the endcaps of the fuse and don't apply to much heat because it could be fairly easy to over heat the solder blob on the inside of the fuse where the fine wire is connected to the endcap as well.
  
 This in effect could 'brick' (turn it into a tosser) your fuse, or perhaps change its operating characteristics, so just be careful, use a low wattage iron, very small gauge solder, and solder flux, to as quickly as possible, attache the wire to the outside of the fuse.
  
 Sometimes *CP*'s can be completely invisible, that is until we stumble over them and discover *'better'* on the other side.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

A good soldering practice that can be used here to avoid thermal shock by over soldering /contact time is heat up the fuse with the wife's hair dryer.
Add/ tin the wire first. Degrease the contact area before fluxing...
Give the flux a few minutes for the acid to remove oxide.
I know most here can solder but simple stuff can make life easier... And practice on cheap ones first... 

Have fun guys

Dave


----------



## Muziqboy

I guess I got lucky when I was soldering to the endcaps of the fuse as I absolutely forgot about that fine wire inside the fuse. I mean I was really applying heat to the endcaps and thankfully did not brick the fuse. And that was also an audiophile fuse costing about $120.
  
 Listening to the rig right now, I am just lost in audio nirvana!
 Can't wait for that meet so you ( JJ ) can hear and see if you agree with what I am hearing.


----------



## johnjen

That makes 2 of us.
 And I want you to hear my 800's in their current iteration as well.
  
 And the next meet is on the 5th of Feb in West Seattle.
  
 Perhaps by then I'll have implemented my next generation of mods to my 800's.
  
 And I do want to learn more about your NUC mostly to see if your setup would be compatible with what I have here.
 I'm experiencing complex interaction between my Mac, the PWD dac, the RN3 and even the Mutec 3+.
 Nothing bad or problematic but noticeable SQ improvements happen when things are restarted in both h/w and s/w.
  
 It's odd…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So Bob and I had a 'chat' about my further refinement of my 800 mods and as a result I've gone off in a different direction, which in turn delays this mod for a bit.
  
 So instead I'm gunna finish my ac power cable connector project.
 And as I post this I have over 1270hrs and still no peak, just simply wonderful SQ.
 The various SQ traits that tell me I've peaked all keep peeking from around the corner but never settling down.
  
 I do however have a 'plan', having experienced this sort of SQ behavior before.
 Both of my power cables need to be cooked (it seems to be a yearly thing) so after I mod my 2nd power cable, I'll cook both of them and my newly modded balanced IC's as well.
   
JJ


----------



## johnjen

So the cables are modified, cooked and back in the system.
  
 I'm in that magic slice of time where I'm hearing 'strong' hints of what is to come when everything settles down.
 Hopefully it won't take 1300hrs, again.
  
 But again the SQ is reaching for new heights and as I type this, I only have 8hrs on them.
  
 So far more bass detail and intonation.
 And I've heard bass lines and emphasis that I've never heard before.
*Intelligibility* has also become *'Better'* as in I can understand more of those difficult to make out vocals.
 And *C3* is also a bit improved.
  
 These are all good signs of what lies ahead.
 Perhaps that adage of using the same cables from the same manufacturer holds some water…
 And as I see it now, it centers around using the same metallurgy, especially the connectors themselves…
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

I'm about to post my write up on the LPS mod to my RN3.
  
 I'm now also looking for a 5vdc board I can mount inside the RN3.
  
 There are 3 shapes for a board to fit.
 8” width and 3.5” deep to the main board.
 Or option #2 if I want to use the 7.5” depth, I’ll be limited to 3.25 width,
 or a third option is about 4.5” length with a 4.5” width.
 All with a maximal height of 3.25”.
  
 I just have one more measurement to take.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

You might want to take a look at this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supper-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-power-supply-LPS-PSU-KIT-5V-9V-12V-15V-18V-24V/141969655633?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D31837067e6e445adbbaa30980cac427e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131867485038
  
 They claim that it's a Super Low Noise LPS. Just mate it with a good R-core transformer and you'll have a good LPS to power the RN3.
  
 If I decide to do the surgery on my RN3, I'll probably go this route.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah that looks like it should fit the bill and it shouldn't be to tall and it only needs 12vac to feed it.
 As for the ultra low noise, I'll go more into that in my post.
 But it sure wouldn't hurt to have something small and quiet like that.
  
 Any links to a suitable transformer?
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Here's the link for the R-core transformer with 12VAC output X2.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/115V-230V-30W-high-quality-Audio-R-Core-Transformer-12V-12V-/130700912002
  
 So for less than $100 bucks with the LPS that I linked earlier, you'll have a very nice and quiet power supply that will fit inside the RN3 plus you'll be able to use the IEC connector already on the back of the RN3 and will look stock.


----------



## jabbr

And what about this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Low-noise-0-8uVrms-10Hz-100KHz-5VDC-power-supply-board-assembled-/321884601058?hash=item4af1d13ae2:g:S0QAAOSw0HVWEf10


----------



## Muziqboy

jabbr said:


> And what about this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Low-noise-0-8uVrms-10Hz-100KHz-5VDC-power-supply-board-assembled-/321884601058?hash=item4af1d13ae2:g:S0QAAOSw0HVWEf10


 
  
 Looks like this is the same one for half the price.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-LT3042-Voltage-regulation-external-Power-Supply-5V-for-USB-in-DAC-Low-noise/142115498378?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D9ef66649bfa54e90a29bc9839cd5027b%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D321884601058


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
 I'll look at those and compare them to a few others I've found.
  
 And thus far all of the ps boards and xfmrs I've found will fit inside the unused space inside the RN3.
 I even found a PSU in a case that will fit.
  
 And the cheapest I've found are kits for the PS board, and a board to mount a toroidal xfmr.
  
 The search continues.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*More data about a LPS vs. SMPS as used in my RN3.*
  
 Most notably my RN3 just got a power supply transplant.
 I changed the SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) for a LPS unit.
 And along the way I verified that only the +5vdc is needed to operate my RN3.
 I would assume (but have not verified) that the D-16 Rednet boxes operate in a similar fashion.
  
 And after I installed my Proof of Performance (PoP) wiring and performed a few listening tests, I was wondering if the SQ shift I heard was enough to make me take the next step.
 That is until I gave this setup over an hour of playing time and then went back to SMPS operation.
 That is when I heard a loss of dynamic impact across the board.
  
 So I switched back and the degree of dynamic impact just jumped out at me.
 Piano, drums, guitars, violins, everything, all had a more visceral impact.
  
 So I let it run all night and listened again in the morning and yep that increase in dynamic acoustic power everywhere was still there so I next embarked upon a more permanent install of the wiring.
  
 In my initial PoP install I used 0.5mm  (24awg) single strand wire to snag the feed into the mainboard for both the ground and +5vdc.
 It was a quick and dirty install since I didn’t want to take a whole bunch of time if the results weren’t going to worth pursuing any further and I’d just yank it all out after evaluating it.
  

  
  
 As you can see I chose a ‘local’ chassis ground for the ground because the design of the RN3 uses the SMPS as the ground source for all of the voltages it provides (+5vdc, ±15vdc and 51vdc).
 And this necessitated using a different grounding scheme because the SMPS would no longer provide this ground connection.
  
 It also should be noted that the thru holes on the main board I used to supply the +5vdc are rather small, such that even 0.75mm (21awg) wire won’t pass thru without cutting off a few strands (which is what I did).
 So we are limited in the size of the wires used to supply the voltage to run the RN3.
 Fortunately the current draw is under 1 amp which isn’t a problem for this gauge of wire.
 And as you can see I used 2 pieces of wire which makes the wire gauge ≈21awg for both the +5 and the ground and this gauge is rated at ≈11 amps
  
 Also you’ll notice that the grounding connection was made from the bottom of the board and the +5 was made using the thru holes from the top.
  
 So after I figured this mod was a keeper I ‘got serious’ D) and replaced all of the single strand wire with stranded 0.75mm wire (21awg).
 And again I used 2 pieces of wire for both the +5vdc and ground.
  

  
  
 This effective dropped the wire gauge down to 18awg which has a current rating of ≈16amps.
 Which in turn means there is even less voltage drop for these short wires.
 And the wire gauge I used to run from the LPS to the terminal block is 16awg so the overall voltage drop should be minimal all the way around.
  
 The ground connections to the mainboard are a bit trickier in that I had to connect them onto the existing pins that stuck out from the bottom of the board.
  

  
  
 I split the stranded wire into to a ‘Y’ and soldered them to the short stubby pins.
  
 And after terminating these wires with ring terminals I also used just a light touch of silver paste to further reduce the resistance across the terminal block connections, and for the local ground connection as well.
  

  
  
 And I fed the green and white wires from the LPS thru the vent holes in the side of the top cover (which is why they are missing the red insulation, so they would fit).
  
 Also you can see the available area to mount a LPS circuit board in the unused area to the left.
 It measures ≈ 8” left to the terminal block on the right and 3.5” deep to the main board, with a maximal height of 3.25”.
 Or option #2 if I want to use all of the 7.5” depth, I’ll be limited to 3.25 width,
 or a third option is about 4.5” length with a 4.5”width.
 And I figure even if I need to use an external transformer, finding a suitable LPS board should be much easier.
  
 And I did take some measurements as well.
 As I mentioned the current draw is ≈ 0.9amps while running and from ≈ 0.75 to ≈ 0.85 while starting up.
 So a LPS with 2-3 amps capacity would be an ideal solution.
  
 And the noise as measured on the +5vdc is much lower than what I measured while running the SMPS.
 Here are the measurements I made using the stock SMPS.
  
*Pin #  Voltage    Average    Normal    Envelope*
 1            +5           11 mv        91 mv       106 mv
 2            +5           83 mv        91 mv       106 mv
 3       0 (grnd)      101 mv        91 mv        106 mv
  
 Note these readings include 24µs spikes (≈42KHz).
 And here are the readings using this LPS with a rated noise of 2mv
  
*Pin #  Voltage    Average    Normal    Envelope*
 1&2    +5                1mv          6.5mv        25mv
 3    0 (grnd)            3mv           16mv        27mv (68mv with spikes)
  
 Note this set of measurements of the ground were made using the active circuit grounds (not just the chassis grounds as were used in the measurements made with the SMPS).
 Which means these measurements were made with the noise generating circuits included, so these numbers are worst case instead of just the chassis ground voltages.
  
 It should also be noted that the envelope does include the 15.9µs (≈63KHz spikes) where as the average and normal readings don’t.
 These spikes are generated by the active digital circuit itself and not by the power supply.
  
 But as you can see the noise on ground is ≈ cut by a factor of 4 and is reduced by an even larger amount in the average and normal measurements.
  
 What this tells me is using an ultra low noise LPS is ‘wasted’ on this digital circuit due to the self generated noise from the digital circuit itself.
 IOW the noise from the active circuit swamps out any added noise (no matter how small) from the LPS.
 IOW there really isn’t any requirement to go ultra fancy on the LPS regulation, which just makes it easier to find a ‘decent’ LPS board that can fit inside the RN3.
 This observation was also evident when I measured the FMC power supply voltage noise I made earlier when I compared the wall wart SMPS to the LPS I used.
 IOW the noise generated by the active circuits is far greater than even a 'regular' LPS such as my 2mv rated triple PSU I'm now using.
  
 Now it won't hurt to use a ultra low noise PSU but really you won't see nor hear any benefit just due to the lowered noise it provides.
  
 And thus far I have found 3) LPS solutions that will fit inside the RN3 case, and can take advantage of the front panel on/off switch and use the IEC connector on the back panel, for a truly ‘sano’ install.  
  
 But as for the degree of improvement in SQ, in my system, this tweak is definitely a step up.
 So much so that I’m going to pursue installing a LPS inside my RN3.
  
 And I’ll write up a report that focuses on the SQ changes I hear in due course mostly because I’m not sure what other changes are in store as the qualitative changes that are centered around the instantaneous dynamic range and impact, continue to improve and more fully reveal themselves.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> *More data about a LPS vs. SMPS as used in my RN3.*
> 
> Most notably my RN3 just got a power supply transplant.
> I changed the SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) for a LPS unit.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the write up. Looking forward to more SQ feedback!
  
 So I am a little confused about the grounding. It looks like you have PS ground coming from your LPS and are also simply duplicating a chassis ground that the SMPS originally had. Is that correct?
  
 Also would it also work to just use connectors to the header pins? I like the idea of reversibility and so would probably also use the previously mentioned idea of replacing the IEC inlet with one drilled out for a DC connector.
  
 Thanks for going boldly!


----------



## johnjen

mourip said:


> Thanks for the write up. Looking forward to more SQ feedback!
> 
> So I am a little confused about the grounding. It looks like you have PS ground coming from your LPS and are also simply duplicating a chassis ground that the SMPS originally had. Is that correct?
> 
> ...


 
 As far as the SQ goes I'm already (lightly) into hearing my music as if anew, again.
 This is a sure sign that I'm headed in the correct direction.
 But it will be at least the middle of Feb before I accumulate enough hrs to really know.
  
 The LPS I'm using is floating so it does not provide a source of ground.
 That is why I used the attachment point at the 'mound' for the 'local' ground for the +5vdc power and as the ground point for the mainboard.
  
 Yes you could use the existing voltage input header and connect to the mainboard that way but you will still need to connect the mainboard ground connections to the chassis somewhere, since the SMPS is now out of the circuit and it was used to make that ground connection.
  
 Thanks, for the kudos.
 And this is the kind of stuff that I really like doing.
 A clean, neat substitution/installation with improvements all the way around.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So after all of my measuring the noise on the voltages and figuring that a super low noise PSU would be massive overkill due to the noise that the main circuit generates, that is exactly the regulator board I did wind up ordering.
 Not because it was Ultra Low Noise but because it matched up the best, both physically and electrically to the needs for this application.
  
 I wound up ordering a telama pc board mounted xfrmr and a regulator board based upon the LT3042 with 1.5 amp at 5vdc output.
 I also ordered up some 16gauge shielded ac power cable to feed the xfrmr via the front panel on/off switch.
 All I'll need are a few stand offs to mount the xfrmr and regulator board and a few sticky backed anchors for the ac power cable run.
  
 And the total price for this LPS setup is ≈ $140
  
 And as it turns out these parts should show up about the time I hit the 500hr mark I use as a benchmark to determine what the total impact has on my SQ.
 But as I mentioned previously I'm already hearing my music as if anew, again.
  
 I'm stoked.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> So after all of my measuring the noise on the voltages and figuring that a super low noise PSU would be massive overkill due to the noise that the main circuit generates, that is exactly the regulator board I did wind up ordering.
> Not because it was Ultra Low Noise but because it matched up the best, both physically and electrically to the needs for this application.
> 
> I wound up ordering a telama pc board mounted xfrmr and a regulator board based upon the LT3042 with 1.5 amp at 5vdc output.
> ...


 
*Great work, well down.*
 I am up for this. I look forward to your photos and report after you install the internal LPS.


----------



## Iving

johnjen said:


> *More data about a LPS vs. SMPS as used in my RN3.*
> 
> Most notably my RN3 just got a power supply transplant.
> I changed the SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) for a LPS unit.
> ...


 
  
 Nice read - Thanks


----------



## johnjen

But wait there's MOAR.
  
 I figure that if the RN3 responds this well to the removal of the SMPS, then the Mutec would as well.
 So…
  
 I ordered up a dual channel regulator board with a dual output transformer so in one box I will effectively have 2 independent LPS's.
 One I'll use for the Mutec and the second channel will be for another digital device I will mod later, perhaps another Mutec or…
  
 Total cost of parts for this 2-fer is ≈ $140 case included.
  
 Yeah we're having some fun now…!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

iving said:


> Nice read - Thanks


 


astrostar59 said:


> *Great work, well down.*
> I am up for this. I look forward to your photos and report after you install the internal LPS.


 
 Thanks for the kudos and I too look forward to the installation and the SQ results of my RN3.
 And with the next round of PS swaps (Mutec 3+) hopefully yielding yet another step up the SQ, I'm looking forward to what changes will be noticed.
  
 Just like I like.
  
 JJ


----------



## ericr

That looks like an absolute hack job*.

*stated as complement!

It's highly likely I will end up heading down the AOIP path and considering the cost of the gear involved, $140 to upgrade the power to both the Redneck (sorry Gefski) and the Mutec represents a great value.

Thanks for blazing the trail!


----------



## johnjen

I figure (and others do as well) that the AOIP costs will continue to diminish.
 And along with other approaches, which will also be less cumbersome and less expensive, these improvements to getting the digital audio stream to our dacs should allow for 'better' SQ all the way around.
  
 Us early adopters of AOIP etc., are establishing how significant these sorts of improvements really can be.
  
 When and how and what is used to take it from here is the challenge and opportunity for those who will pick up this gauntlet and run with it.
  
 And really before all of this experimentation with trying to improve USB and SPDIF and AES etc., most were unaware that these levels of SQ were even possible.
  
 And that there are those who are looking into what can be gleaned by all of this experimentation and coming up with the next generation of getting all of our bits properly delivered to the dac, portends wonderful improvements, much like properly done EQ and other improvements to the gear we now have available to us.
  
 I see this as a Win/Win/Win for all the participants involved.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

ericr said:


> That looks like an absolute hack job*.
> 
> *stated as complement!
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah it’s a hack job for sure, but sometimes a 'clean' (sano) implementation can be nearly invisible and the end results quite satisfying.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And really I'm not the one blazing this trail, just one who has listened to others and experimented and observed what the results are.
 I mean the guys over at Computer Audiophile were the first reporting on using AOIP and then modding the power supplies etc.
  
 But what gets me is that they weren't all that impressed, yes they heard improvements, but it is our little group that is singing the praises and running with these tweaks.
  
 And I do wonder why they weren't as impressed as we are, but then perhaps we are way too easily impressed to begin with.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And if these next few tweaks (swapping SMPS's for LPS's for the Mutec 3+'s etc) are equally as impressive, I really have to wonder how high IS up and where all of this will lead.
  
 Exciting times in Audio for sure.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

Totally agree. I think we probably need a decent audio specialist manufacturer like PS Audio for example, to make a more compact AOIP box using the same protocol as Rednet and Dante, but this time in a sexier box (aluminium) smaller size and with a better PS inside. It only would need say 6 or 8 network connectors. And an ability to sample rate switch from the front panel would be great for those up sampling or having various bit depth libraries.
  
 The price could also come down a bit, to distance itself from the dedicated server solutions that already have an Ethernet input.
  
 IMO a nice market gap for someone to 'get on' and market it?


----------



## Torq

astrostar59 said:


> Totally agree. I think we probably need a decent audio specialist manufacturer like PS Audio for example, to make a more compact AOIP box using the same protocol as Rednet and Dante, but this time in a sexier box (aluminium) smaller size and with a better PS inside. It only would need say 6 or 8 network connectors. And an ability to sample rate switch from the front panel would be great for those up sampling or having various bit depth libraries.
> 
> The price could also come down a bit, to distance itself from the dedicated server solutions that already have an Ethernet input.
> 
> IMO a nice market gap for someone to 'get on' and market it?


 

 Given that PS Audio's existing, proprietary (i.e. PS-Audio only) AOIP board currently runs $899, I'm not sure that's where you're going to find much traction for lower prices (not knocking what they have, but cheap it is not ... an entire RedNet 3 is $999 ... and often available at $799).
  
 How about a standards-compliant box, about 9" x 6.75" x 2.25", with Ethernet, WiFi and Bluetooth inputs, Roon end-point (RAAT) certification, UPnP support, optional Dante capability, _proper_ clocks, integral low-noise LPS, with fully isolated S/PDIF (COAX/BNC), AES, I2S (and TOSLINK of course) outputs?  For $399?  _Maybe_ $299?
  
 If that sounds interesting, drop me a PM.


----------



## johnjen

torq said:


> Given that PS Audio's existing, proprietary (i.e. PS-Audio only) AOIP board currently runs $899, I'm not sure that's where you're going to find much traction for lower prices (not knocking what they have, but cheap it is not ... an entire RedNet 3 is $999 ... and often available at $799).
> 
> How about a standards-compliant box, about 9" x 6.75" x 2.25", with Ethernet, WiFi and Bluetooth inputs, Roon end-point (RAAT) certification, UPnP support, optional Dante capability, _proper_ clocks, integral low-noise LPS, with fully isolated S/PDIF (COAX/BNC), AES, I2S (and TOSLINK of course) outputs?  For $399?  _Maybe_ $299?
> 
> If that sounds interesting, drop me a PM.


 
 NOW we're talk'n!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 That should/could blow open the doors for 'Better', for sure.
  
 Whata I gotta do?
  
 And the uD0 box (atterotech unDaes0) at ≈$700 is an option as well at twice the $$ but is available now especially for dacs that deliver better SQ at under 96KHz sample rates (Schiit multibit).
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

torq said:


> How about a standards-compliant box, about 9" x 6.75" x 2.25", with Ethernet, WiFi and Bluetooth inputs, Roon end-point (RAAT) certification, UPnP support, optional Dante capability, _proper_ clocks, integral low-noise LPS, with fully isolated S/PDIF (COAX/BNC), AES, I2S (and TOSLINK of course) outputs?  For $399?  _Maybe_ $299?




Go on.... Spill it! This is what I've been waiting on since selling the RN3


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> And really I'm not the one blazing this trail, just one who has listened to others and experimented and observed what the results are.
> I mean the guys over at Computer Audiophile were the first reporting on using AOIP and then modding the power supplies etc.


 
  
 I first found out about AOIP here from Rob of "The Extreme USB  Chain" fame. Thanks Rob!
  
 Folks over on The Computer Audiophile have been very slow to pick up on AOIP. In fact I get better information on new computer audio developments here than on CA. They are too busy arguing with each other and defending older technologies and debating new music compression schemes. I tried to introduce folks over on CA to AOIP and it fell nearly completely dead. I stopped posting for AOIP there.


----------



## Torq

johnjen said:


> NOW we're talk'n!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> Go on.... Spill it! This is what I've been waiting on since selling the RN3


 
  
 I'll email/PM you guys when I get back from my valentines day trip ...   Nothing you need to do until then (especially if you're willing to test the thing).


----------



## johnjen

Excellent news, all the way around.
 Mini vacations can be a breath of fresh air.
  
 And testing/comparing is continually on my agenda…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So now we've gone and dun it…
  
 We're now the proud parents of a new puppy that is gunna be HUGE.
 I'm guessing 95lbs±
  
 He's Chocolate Lab/Chesapeake mix
 He's about 4 months old and weighs ≈ 40lbs already.
 He's already more than tripled his weight since we got him.
 His paws are enormous.
  
 But the thing is he's really smart.
 Yeah all new 'parents' say that, but he picks up stuff really quickly and remembers…
  
 This is a double edge sword in that he will learn to do what he wants all the more easily and quickly, especially when we aren't looking…
 Those with smart dogs know exactly what I'm talking about…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 For instance he has learned, by himself how to move the gate aside and invade the kitchen and he's developing his stealthyness in the process (it's getting harder to hear him do this and I'm like 15' away.
  
 But he really enjoys meeting new people, dogs, cats, racoons, birds, and really just about anything that moves.
 And he truly is a joy to be around.
  
 We keep looking at each other and saying,
 What Have We Done?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But the other, more directly thread related recent development is…
 I'm now an owner of my very own Jggy!
 And it will be going into service tomorrow (monday) after I lightly mod it.
  
 And I'll be selling my tweako PSA PWD mk.I-II dac here before to long, but I will keep it around for a bit especially if its I2S input will be of use with some hardware testing that might be coming up before to long.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've been wanting a Jggy since before they were available and I sorta kinda know what to expect but then again I've only heard one in a stable home setting once.
 In fact mostly I've heard this dac at meets, which while it can be very nice and does provide a taste of it's capabilities, the SQ is usually eclipsed in a dialed in and 'stationary' tweako home system.
  
 Which means it may completely surprise me.
  
 And right now the system is blossoming and the dynamic impact is returning.
 This has my head on a swivel and my feet dancing under my desk *(HB&W - T3*), big time. 
  
 Tomorrow is gunna be a MONDO headphone day to remember!
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Lovely


----------



## gefski

Congrats on both fronts, JJ.

We also are dog-ophiles and have rescued for years, mostly seniors, have 3 now. And yes, they are good at kitchen crimes, individually or in a conspiracy.

I know you've wanted a Yggy from the beginning. In early 2015 it took me to a presentation so beyond previous digital that everything was new, and remained so. Then I was jaw-dropped again in late 2016, feeding it with Dante Ethernet. 

It will be fascinating to see how it hits you, since you already have Dante "nothingness" up front, and are bringing Yggy to the party!

...and of course, the JJ credo "warranties are made to be voided".


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Congrats on both fronts, JJ.
> 
> We also are dog-ophiles and have rescued for years, mostly seniors, have 3 now. And yes, they are good at kitchen crimes, individually or in a conspiracy.
> 
> ...


 
 We also have a chocolate lab rescue who is learning how to play because of the puppy.
 It is really interesting to watch as they teach each other.
  
 And as he is teaching us, all the while we are teaching him as well.
 I am continually amazed at the interaction and life lessons being shared between all members of our household (including Max the cat), and he is even involving the next door neighbors as well.
  
 As for my Jggy, it needs to be taken apart again tomorrow to see if I plugged in a ribbon cable incorrectly.
 Right now the Jggy won't latch onto any digital input and I've tried USB, SPDIF (RCA and BNC), AES.
  
 Hopefully tomorrow I'll have it running.
  
 JJ
 ps warranties are to be voided indeed and in this case I don't have to do anything because I bought it used…


----------



## johnjen

We have successful ignition of the rocket shoes (to quote Rebus Kineebus of Firesign Theater fame).
  
 And thanks to Nick, MR tech at Schiit, who steered me in the correct direction, I found that I plugged the ribbon cable into only one row of pins.
  
 So now the warm-up / settling in / reaching peak performance of the Jggy has begun.
  
 I expect it won't take the full 7+ days, but it will be interesting to determine how long it will take.
  
 Mondo headphone time engaged…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Congrats JJ, enjoy the experiences.


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Congrats JJ, enjoy the experiences.


 
 Say there SGTM…
  
 At ≈ 4hrs playing time, the SQ is nearing what my PWD delivers.
  
 I expect it to continue to blossom further, and if the usual sequencing holds true, by 2-4am this evening/morning I should be hearing it peak.
  
 Yeah I'm having some fun now.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Status report.
 (yeah I couldn't resist).  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This transition from my tweako PWD to the equally tweaked Jggy reminds me in terms of the pattern of 'behavior' that I experienced when I went from my tweaked 2-wyrd setup to the RN3 and the transition from the SMPS to the LPS in my RN3 as well.
 Even if the magnitude of change is different in all 3 of these cases, the pattern and rate of changes is remarkably similar.
  
 It took ≈ 1-2 hrs for the change to the 'new', to begin approaching the same level of SQ that the peak level of SQ the previous setup was capable of.
  
 This slow gradual shift and change in terms of the acoustic presentation continues as the hours accumulate and at ≈10+hrs the SQ is continuing to blossom and the overall SQ has reached full parity with the previous setup.
 If this progression continues, like the previously mentioned examples, then I'd expect tomorrow will be even more amazing.
  
 Right now the delivery of those tantalizingly impressive inner details that tend to 'lock' the soundstage and all of the *'voices'* that contribute their acoustic presence, into a cohesive whole (*C3*), are not just peeking from around the corner, but are 'strenghtening' in their ability to be noticed and make ever greater contributions to the overall SQ.
  
 Now my ability to discriminate these subtle differences as well, is probably also being refined as I 'learn' what these differences are and what their results 'bring to the table' so to speak.
 IOW I'm more fully and completely integrating these changes, and so they have more meaning.
  
 Still the step up in SQ thus far is most impressive and I know it's still very early in the 'settling in' process, not to mention the 5 other tweaks I currently have running hourly counters on, that are also 'settling in' as well.
  
 Interesting Times In Audio Indeed.
  
 JJ


----------



## Benny-x

johnjen said:


> I'm now an owner of my very own Jggy!
> And it will be going into service tomorrow (monday) *after I lightly mod it*.
> 
> And I'll be selling my *tweako PSA PWD mk.I-II dac* here before to long




1. What're you going to do to your Yggdrasil?
2. What did you do to your PWD MkII? 
- please be as detailed as you like about #2, I own one that I'm wondering about replacing or selling right now.


----------



## Middy

Done forget pictures


----------



## johnjen

benny-x said:


> 1. What're you going to do to your Yggdrasil?
> 2. What did you do to your PWD MkII?
> - please be as detailed as you like about #2, I own one that I'm wondering about replacing or selling right now.


 
 Say there.
  
 In the case of #2, I replaced the stock fuse with 2 'standard' (not red nor black) Synergistic Research Quantum (SRQ) fuses (it uses one for the digital and one for the analog sections of the dac).
  
 I also added the WAQy (WA Quantum) fuse chips to these fuses.
 And I added a WAQy transformer chip to the torroidal transformer as well.
  
 Yes some might consider all of this as pixie dust or worse, but my experiments have repeatedly demonstrated that the WAQy chips do result in improvements as do the SRQ fuses.
  
 I also used silver paste on the interconnects  (DO NOT use this on either the USB or the RJ-45 (ethernet) connectors) and on the fuses where they make contact with the fuse holder.
  
 As for #1, I did much the same except I used 3 transformer WAQy chips (digital, analog, choke) and only one SRQ fuse along with a WAQy chip.
  
 The other thing about my PWD is it started life as a Mk.1 and was upgraded to the Mk.2.
 This particular configuration is reportedly THE Tweako setup for the PWD and I must say it is a delightful dac, with bass response second to none. 
 The square wave response is as perfect as I have ever seen from any analog output, from any device, let alone a dac.
  
 There are other tweaks but they are made to gear that plugs into these dacs and not to the dacs themselves.
  
 The availability of the WAQy chips has been 'consolidated' of late, and the only place I could find them is from VH Audio.
 The SRQ fuses are available from several sources and come in 3 flavors, the original SRQ, the Red version, and now the Black version, each with increasing costs.
  
 Sorry I don't have any pics, although if it were important enough I could open up the PWD and show the WAQY transformer chip simply taped to the top of it. 
 But the fuses are inside a covered fuse holder so there isn't anything to see that a pic would reveal.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So today my parts came in for the internal LPS for my RN3.
 It is installed and operating even as I type this.
  
 Thus far it seems to be as good as my previous external LPS, and perhaps better.
  
 I won't know for a while yet and I'll write up a post about the install with pics, but for now a teaser…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> So today my parts came in for the internal LPS for my RN3.
> It is installed and operating even as I type this.
> 
> Thus far it seems to be as good as my previous external LPS, and perhaps better.
> ...


 
 I need to lie down, this is just too exciting! I really mean it.... Look forward to your fitted and working pic (and instructions and parts list) if possible.


----------



## johnjen

Right now I'm in the middle of a HMMAIAA event.
  
 HMMAIAA (Hearing MY Music As If Anew, Again).
  
 I'm listening to the 1812 Overture, a 1962 recording using live cannons of the period, recorded at US West Point military academy.
 The REALism of the cannons has taken a decided step up, including the echo reflection from the surround terrain.
  
 Not to mention the carillon bells, including the sounds of the mechanism used to operate them.
  
 And every album I've played today has reflected this same step up in SQ.
  
 HMMAIAA indeed.
  
 I'm dig'n it…
  
 JJ
 I still have 5 counters all counting up the hours, with the 5th (RN3-LPS) being reset to zero and starting over.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johnjen said:


> Say there SGTM…
> 
> At ≈ 4hrs playing time, the SQ is nearing what my PWD delivers.
> 
> ...


 

 Right on, right on!! The LPS inside the RN3 is looking good too, looks like a direct drop in with maybe some mounting rigging. Can't wait until the next meet to see/hear it all come together!


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Right now I'm in the middle of a HMMAIAA event.
> 
> HMMAIAA (Hearing MY Music As If Anew, Again).
> 
> ...




You'll just have to learn to live with it, won't you? :rolleyes:


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> You'll just have to learn to live with it, won't you?


 
 Yeah it’s a rough life but someone has to do it, right?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And speaking of living with it…
  
 Tonight my *tLFF* index reached new heights and eclipsed the old, longstanding high water mark by a relatively large amount.
  
 Put another way, 3:00 was about as high as I could comfortably go with the MOAR knob before I had to turn it down.
 Late this evening and onwards it hit the 4:00-4:30 mark.
  
 This is a VERY encouraging sign that the degree of focus and a more precise recreation of acoustic energy is being created and presented to my ears.
 IOW the energy is being expressed where it's supposed to be and not where it isn't supposed to be.
  
 But that it made such a 'large' change, and so suddenly, is a 1st for me.
 In the past, step ups in the *tLFF* were fairly small and gradual (like 0:30 increases and over the course of a day).
  
 This latest shift happened in a matter of an hour or so and was very pronounced.
  
 Interesting Times In Audio Indeed.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*RN3 power supply upgrade details.*
  
 So here is the write up of my latest science experiment and bit of Audiophoolishness…  
  
 I removed the stock SMPS power supply and replaced it with a collection of parts to make up a LPS of suitable capacity and capability.
 It is overkill to a certain extent but then that is a usual and expected trait for these sorts of things.
  
 The power supply I added to the RN3 consists of a Telema 25VA transformer
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/131363018720

 mounted to a circuit board
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/131863613806
  
 feeding an LT3042 ‘precision’ +5Vdc regulator board
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/142115498378
  
 All of which feeds directly (hardwired) to those pair of wires I previously soldered to the main board.
  

  
 What follows isn’t a ‘strict’ electronic analysis but is meant for clarity and ‘worst case’ figur’n, which will suffice to make the main point.
  
 The transformer I used has dual 9Vac output coils and together are rated at 25VA/9V = 2.77 Amps.
 And for our purposes of supplying +5Vdc to power this RN3
 2.77Amps x 5Vdc = 13.88 Watts of available power.
  
 The RN3 is rated to use 30 watts but I measured its current draw at ≈1amp actual power usage, which means,
 1Amp x 5Vdc = 5Watts.
  
 So this PSU supplies 13.88Watts and we use 5Watts, which is ≈ 36% of the rated capacity of this PSU as configured.
  
 Which isn’t an ‘ideal’ percentage of this PSU, if all I cared about is % efficiency, but is perfectly fine since I have ≈ twice again the amount of current delivery capability in reserve.
  
 IOW this amount of draw is sufficient to fully ‘engage’ the regulator board (so it has a sufficient load to regulate) but it, relatively speaking, is ‘loafing along’.
 Which means it generates low heat, more that the SMPS to be sure but even if the entire PSU were only 50% efficient (unlikely) it would only generate ≈5Watts of heat, and it would still have almost 3 watts of reserve power remaining.
  
 So in my original figur’n of how I’d layout this modification I was going to mount the transformer in the vacant area on the left and the regulator board near the connector block I had already added
 Like this…

  
 But I verified that the transformer board would fit in the space vacated by the stock SMPS.
 Since I wanted to use the on/off switch and the existing IEC power connector, this arrangement would make the AC power routing much simpler, and shorter.
  

  

  
 Be aware that the available space is a bit tight since the machine screw ’Zerk’ type fittings used to secure the sides of the top cover, protrude into the available mounting space, which in turn forces the board closer to the mainboard,
 It’s fortunate that using the standoffs lifts the board above these ‘Zerk’ fittings, even so the ac power wires are positioned in this space so the extra room is a ‘good thing’.
  
 And so I removed that connector block and hard wired the 2) +5Vdc wires directly to the regulator board with its 2) +5Vdc output pins, and I also hardwired the ground wire as well.
  

  
  
 Wiring the Telema transformer board was the most tedious part in that I tried 2 different approaches with the 2nd technique being FAR easier.
  
 So for those who would venture down this road I’ll save you the trouble of doing this the hard way and just explain what worked best for me.
  
 The 115Vac inputs (primary windings) and 9Vac outputs (secondary windings) use 2 coils each.
 They must be wired together in order to use the full output of this transformer.
 Essentially the 2 coils are wired in parallel for both the input (primary windings) and output (secondary windings).
  
 The input solder pads are a pair of ’square’ solder pads, and a pair of oval solder pads that are ’staggered’, which means the interconnection between them has to jump over one pad to get to the other mated solder pad.
 They look like this,
  

  
 O-X-O-X
 where the O’s are wired together, as are the X’s.
 What worked best was to divide the 16gauge ac power wire I used into two equal sized wires, into a ‘Y’ configuration.
 These ‘Y’s then connect to both of the X’s, and to both of the O’s, where the X would be the ‘hot’ lead (Red wire) and the O would be the neutral lead (black wire) from the front panel switch.
 And to possibly add just a touch of confusion, the red and black wires could be swapped between the X/O connection pairs since the load is a coil and it doesn’t ‘know’ ‘hot from neutral, nor care.
 And this applies to both the primary and secondary windings.
 IOW as long as both of the X’s and both of the O’s are used each by a ‘Y’ connection, the ‘polarity’ in not an issue.
  

  
 I used 3 pieces of heat shrink to make the ‘Y’ so they both were insulated from each other and connected the hot on the top of the board and the neutral to the bottom.
  
 I used this technique for the outputs, but the output coils are not ‘hot’/‘neutral’ but they are ‘polarized’, so the square/oval solder pads remain, which need to be wired in the same way, with the square pads (X’s) together and the oval pads (O’s) together.
  
 That is if you are using 115Vac as the source voltage (like in the US).
 If you need to wire the primary for 230-240Vac, the input wiring is much simpler, in that you bridge the middle X and O together and send the hot to the X and the neutral to the O at opposite ends of this connection, like this;
 O-XO-X
 This wires the input coils in series.  (Sorry no Picture Available).
  
 I also added a 5x20mm fuse holder ($2) and wired the Brown wire (‘hot’) directly from the IEC connector thru the fuse, and then along with the Blue wire (‘neutral’) sent them on to the front panel switch, unchanged.
 And I left the IEC connector’s ground wire alone.
  
 The output from the on/off switch went directly to the input side of the transformer board.
 And the 9Vac output from the transformer board went directly to the regulator board’s input.
  

  
 Mounting the boards was fairly straight forward in that I used 1/4” standoffs to raise the boards above the chassis.
 This mounting scheme necessitated that I use nuts on the outside of the chassis which do stick down further than the tiny stick on feet, which in turn necessitated the use of more robust and ‘taller ‘ feet.
  

  
  
 But other than the new nuts on the bottom of the chassis and the bigger feet, there is no other clue any modifications have been made to this RN3.
  
 Truly a ‘sano’ upgrade.
  
 And after things play for a while, settle in and I hear what the results of all of this fussing yields,
 I’ll take some measurements of the power supply noise,
 and the current draw in several places,
 and take a few thermal readings,
 and take a few more pics…
  
 But in the mean time my 2 channel PSU will be built and perhaps even wired to the Mutec 3+, and I have an ac power distribution project to install as well.
  
 Just WAY to much fun.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 JJ


----------



## gefski

Beeeeeautiful! Sano for sure. Really like your "sleeper" approach---

"Since I wanted to use the on/off switch and the existing IEC power connector, this arrangement would make the AC power routing much simpler, and shorter..." and "...other than the new nuts on the bottom of the chassis and the bigger feet, there is no other clue any modifications have been made to this RN3."

Caring enough to retain stock functionality and appearance in a project that involves significant modifications goes way back for me. At age sixteen my first hot rod project, an Olds engine into my Ford Tudor, took almost 2 years. Other than money, a main reason it took so long was that my Dad "forced" us to do things right every time I wanted to mickeymouse something. It stuck.

Keep wrenching and soldering, JJ!


----------



## astrostar59

Great work JohnJen
  
 I have ordered my parts. Quick question, what height were the PCB standoffs you used? I will get some to suit.
  
 My parts should land in 2 weeks, maybe less. I will post my pics as well.
  
 Cool.


----------



## Golfnutz

Awesome stuff there JJ.
  
 I'm still waiting for my LPS to arrive from China.
  
 In case anyone wants to use the JST XH connector (instead of soldering 5v and Ground to the board directly), here are the Digikey parts (header and pins). I can confirm these are a direct fit.
  
 I'll be using these 18awg wires, although the specs say 22 - 28 awg for the pins.


----------



## astrostar59

Another tweak, I bought a new IEC connector block inc a 20mm fuse holder.
  
 johnjen
 I bet your new PS will take a week to burn in approx. So more goodies your way.


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Beeeeeautiful! Sano for sure. Really like your "sleeper" approach---
> 
> "Since I wanted to use the on/off switch and the existing IEC power connector, this arrangement would make the AC power routing much simpler, and shorter..." and "...other than the new nuts on the bottom of the chassis and the bigger feet, there is no other clue any modifications have been made to this RN3."
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the encouragement.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But you know, as do I, that tweaking, once it's firmly established in our means and methods, is impossible to get rid of, nor can we ignore it's siren song.
  
 But it does make for a satisfying end result…!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Great work JohnJen
> 
> I have ordered my parts. Quick question, what height were the PCB standoffs you used? I will get some to suit.
> 
> ...


 
 Say there!
  
 I used 1/4" standoffs.
 I also used some 'thick' washers to take up some of the length of the threads that stuck thru the bottom of the chassis so mostly only the nuts stuck down.
  
 Have fun and make sure the ac power connections are covered in heat shrink.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

golfnutz said:


> Awesome stuff there JJ.
> 
> I'm still waiting for my LPS to arrive from China.
> 
> ...


 
 Say there.
  
 Using those headers should make for a clean install.
 I'd be interested to hear if using the larger gauge wire will pose any problems.
  
 But I always want to up the gauge where and when I can, just because I can.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Another tweak, I bought a new IEC connector block inc a 20mm fuse holder.
> 
> johnjen
> I bet your new PS will take a week to burn in approx. So more goodies your way.


 
 Say there.
 After things settle in I too might swap out the stock IEC connector, but be aware that the stock IEC connector may have a hi-freq filter built in to 'block' some of the noise from escaping, and/or entering.
  
 Just a thought.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Another tweak, I bought a new IEC connector block inc a 20mm fuse holder.
> ...


 

 Will try and see if that is the case when I do the mods. I will buy a fuse holder just in case. May be a part number on the IEC block Rednet has used?
  
 I have just ordered a filtered IEC block which includes a fuse holder from hificollective. Standoffs, shrink wrap and XH connector is from digikey.


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> gefski said:
> 
> 
> > Beeeeeautiful! Sano for sure. Really like your "sleeper" approach---
> ...


 
 Ha Ha, you are right there. Here is my first foray building an Audio Note DAC 3.1 kit. Later I built the 4.1 kit and then modded almost all of it....
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/649947/check-out-my-audio-note-dac-3-1-se-build
  
 The later:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/r-2r-audio-note-digital-analogue-converter-4-1-diy-and-modifications-optimizations-or-enhancements-made-standard-audio-equipment-26693/
  
 Then later (new I/Vs and digital board)


 Excuse the loom, but it sounded remarkable after all the mods. The I/Vs were Audio Note UK 496s bought from an owner who didn't need then anymore.
 And the digital board was an AN UK PCB (blank). I had to stuff it.


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> Will try and see if that is the case when I do the mods. I will buy a fuse holder just in case. May be a part number on the IEC block Rednet has used?
> 
> I have just ordered a filtered IEC block which includes a fuse holder from hificollective. Standoffs, shrink wrap and XH connector is from digikey.


 
 Word of caution about the XH connectors.
  
 You will need some JST crimpers if using XH connectors. I would also suggest ordering a minimum 10 headers, and 50 pins (they are just too cheap not to).
  
 Another reason for ordering spares. If you need to redo any part of the connector, you'll have to throw away what you've done and start over. You'll only be able to save the wires by pulling them out the of connector. The pins will stay in the connector and it will be useless at that point.
  
 I went with the Engineer PA-21 crimper. I'm sure any of the JST crimpers will work fine. There are some reviews of JST crimpers on the internets.


----------



## Golfnutz

johnjen said:


> Say there.
> 
> Using those headers should make for a clean install.
> I'd be interested to hear if using the larger gauge wire will pose any problems.
> ...


 
 I asked the guy helping me the same question.  He said 18awg wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Will try and see if that is the case when I do the mods. I will buy a fuse holder just in case. May be a part number on the IEC block Rednet has used?
> ...


 

 good advice. Is it possible to use small pliers instead of buying an expensive crimper? Maybe I could add a blob of solder to the upper area on the header?


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> good advice. Is it possible to use small pliers instead of buying an expensive crimper? Maybe I could add a blob of solder to the upper area on the header?


 
  
 Not really, they are designed to curl at the tips (you can see this in the photo of the black wire I posted earlier, and the one below).
  
 If you add solder, I doubt you'll get the pins seated correctly - the fit is already tight (size of wire isn't the issue - just the pins are tight, and they kind of snap into the connector).
  
 They need to be crimped in 2 places, using 2 different sizes on the crimper (there are how-to videos on the internets showing this).


----------



## astrostar59

Thanks. I realised after posting I would need the crimping pliers, so ordered some budget ones on Amazon.es
  
 Think I am all set now, IEC including fuse and RF filter, transformer, PCB for transformer, LPS PCB (built)  8 x standoffs 15mm M3, M3 screws, crimping plug and ends.
  
 Will have all the goodies in 2 weeks.
  
 Good luck with your build Golfnutz. Seems like a nice DIY mod and the reports on SQ from John promising. I will feed the Rednet from my PS Audio P10, so clean power from the mains.


----------



## Tand2016

This is a great thread! I am looking into modifying my Rednet 16 R. As I have 2 powersupplys in mine I can easy compare the original ps with the LPS. I am going to use my UpTone JS-2 to try this out. I want to use a panel mount 2,1 mm connector.
  
 I am ready to order from Digi-Key but I am not sure which connector to buy? Is it the bottom one, with 3 contacts? 
  
 http://www.digikey.no/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=219881156&uq=636233222100704793
  

  
 Best Tommy


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Will try and see if that is the case when I do the mods. I will buy a fuse holder just in case. May be a part number on the IEC block Rednet has used?
> 
> I have just ordered a filtered IEC block which includes a fuse holder from hificollective. Standoffs, shrink wrap and XH connector is from digikey.


 
 The reason I say this is because the IEC connector is an all metal fully encased housing with the ground connection tied to the housing.
 This is usually the sign of RFI/EMI shielding and since this is a pro-audio piece they usually do everything they can to keep the noise level as low as possible.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Ha Ha, you are right there. Here is my first foray building an Audio Note DAC 3.1 kit. Later I built the 4.1 kit and then modded almost all of it....
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/649947/check-out-my-audio-note-dac-3-1-se-build
> 
> ...


 
 Nice job!
 I see that you used a sufficiently large case which makes future mods MUCH easier…!
  
 And it is always gratifying when a project comes out with few (if any) surprises AND results is a step up in SQ to boot.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

golfnutz said:


> I asked the guy helping me the same question.  He said 18awg wouldn't be an issue.


 
 That's good to hear, thanks
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Will try and see if that is the case when I do the mods. I will buy a fuse holder just in case. May be a part number on the IEC block Rednet has used?
> ...


 

 I bought this. Think it is a similar unit.
RF Filtered IEC Inlet Socket with Fuse 






    General purpose filter with a fuse holder providing effective EMI suppression of both line-to-line and line-to-ground noise. 250 Fasten terminals. 6 Amp 125/250VAC. Wire connection is by 6.3mm faston terminals, or you can solder directly (prefered method).


----------



## Golfnutz

Hmmmm.....
  
 That receptacle doesn't look like the proper style for the Rednet 3, looks closer to the D16 type receptacle. Even for the D16, I doubt it would work because the size looks too tall (required for the fuse).
  
 Just my observation, I'm sure you've checked it all out. I suppose if the screws line up you can use the D16 style (maybe they are the same - D16 mounted on the outside, and Rednet 3 from the inside), just not sure about the height though.
  
 Rednet 3 - square shaped
 
  
 Rednet D16 - more rectangular

  
 Based on a JJ photo, can't really tell if there's a flange or not, doesn't look like it though.


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> Hmmmm.....
> 
> That receptacle doesn't look like the proper style for the Rednet 3, looks closer to the D16 type receptacle. Even for the D16, I doubt it would work because the size looks too tall (required for the fuse).


 
 Yes you are correct. I thought the same. I am cool about cutting a deeper hole and 2 new screw holes, no worries. It just means I can avoid the separate fuse holder, and I quite like fuses on the IEC inlet. 
  
 Keep us posted how you get on with your mods Golfnutz. I did other mods to my system this week and things hotting up really nicely (better).
  
 1. Bi-wired my horn speakers 
 Thought it was snake oil. I can hear it isn't especially at lower volume levels and me being extreme near field is a good thing.
  
 2. Fitted Duelund Copper Cast capacitors on the line stage of my Audio Note DAC 5
 Amazing capacitors, right away more natural music, no hint it is digital. Crazy money though, but worth it for sure as bigger change than swopping tubes.
  
 Looking forward to Tidal and MQA next.....


----------



## johnjen

So I added a pic of the bottom of the RN3 showing the changes due to adding the internal LPS along with the new larger stick on feet.
  
 And I'll be posting about my dual channel LPS I'm putting together, but for now here's a teaser.
  

  
 I'm just waiting on the case (which is the size of the outline on the background piece of paper).
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

JJ
  
 So while I'm waiting for the LPS parts for the RN3 to arrive, the LPS for the Mutec came in yesterday and I was able to rig the Mutec MC3+ USB with a DC input jack on the back and so far I like what I am hearing. More of that *REALNESS.* And I'm sure that it will improve even more with burn-in. It amazes me how the system keeps on scaling up by replacing the smps with all LPS.
  
 I also put in another order for the same LPS to replace the smps wall-wart of the Antelope Live Clock. So by the time of the next meet, all the source equipment will be running on LPS's.
  
 Yeah JJ, we are having some fun now!


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> JJ
> 
> So while I'm waiting for the LPS parts for the RN3 to arrive, the LPS for the Mutec came in yesterday and I was able to rig the Mutec MC3+ USB with a DC input jack on the back and so far I like what I am hearing. More of that *REALNESS.* And I'm sure that it will improve even more with burn-in. It's amazes me how the system keeps on scaling up by replacing the smps with all LPS.
> 
> ...


 
 Since you're using a DC input jack, I'll assume you don't have an earth ground connected.
  
 There was some discussion on CA about this potentially being an issue (Mutec 3+ forum).
  
 If your LPS has an earth ground, have you tried doing a simple test by connecting another wire from each of the earth grounds on the LPS and Mutec to see if it makes any difference?


----------



## Muziqboy

golfnutz said:


> Since you're using a DC input jack, I'll assume you don't have an earth ground connected.
> 
> There was some discussion on CA about this potentially being an issue (Mutec 3+ forum).
> 
> If your LPS has an earth ground, have you tried doing a simple test by connecting another wire from each of the earth grounds on the LPS and Mutec to see if it makes any difference?


 
  
 Have not read about that potential issue. If it is about noise on the ground plane, I can assure you that I am hearing a black background deprived of any noise.
  
 I also use an Akiko Stick connected to the free rca jack on the Mutec which help a lot in absorbing any noise riding in the ground plane.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> Have not read about that potential issue. If it is about noise on the ground plane, I can assure you that I am hearing a black background deprived of any noise.
> 
> I also use an Akiko Stick connected to the free rca jack on the Mutec which help a lot in absorbing any noise riding in the ground plane.


 
 Maybe JJ could offer some opinions on this subject (floating ground, ground loops, stray noise). Especially for DC feeding AC designed circuit.

 Was referring to this comment. Not the ground plane (if this is what you mean 0v '-' DC wire - common/ground), but earth ground (yellow/green wire).

  
 The internal picture of the Mutec show it's using earth ground. My understanding is you've created a floating ground to a circuit that was intended to be earth grounded. To see if there's really any difference, you could do a simple test and run an external ground wire from the LPS to the Mutec  Not a big deal, was just wondering...

  
 I believe he was referring to this modification. I assume this would be basically the same net result as you did.


----------



## Muziqboy

I did the Mutec LPS mod based on this http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3653
  
 I left the smps intact and just soldered wires on both the + and - connections. Pulled out the USB module since I don't use that and mounted the DC barrel jack in that square usb hole on the back of the Mutec.
  
 JJ can vouch for the use of the Akiko's since we are heavily into tweaking our systems and the Akiko's are 1 of the major tweaks we implemented.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> I did the Mutec LPS mod based on this http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3653
> 
> I left the smps intact and just soldered wires on both the + and - connections. Pulled out the USB module since I don't use that and mounted the DC barrel jack in that square usb hole on the back of the Mutec.
> 
> JJ can vouch for the use of the Akiko's since we are heavily into tweaking our systems and the Akiko's are 1 of the major tweaks we implemented.


 

 Actually, the photo of the earth ground wire I posted is from that website. If I were to get the Mutec, I would do the exact same mod as you, except I would try to use smooth jaw alligator clips instead of soldering directly to the board. In addition, I would probably include earth ground from an LPS the same way I'm doing my Rednet D16 mod.
  
 Sorry, I don't know about the Akiko and how it relates to earth ground. Earth ground may not even be an issue - I was just wondering if there was any difference with/or without earth ground. I think it's important for anyone else thinking of doing these types of changes to know exactly what the person did. It could be that without the Akiko, the mod may not be as affective (as in my previous post with Ulli's comments).
  
 So thanks for the additional comments.


----------



## johnjen

My take on earth ground is a bit complex and I'm still gathering info and investigating.
  
 My previous posts about the noise on ground as measured in the FMC (Fiber Media Converter) and my RN3 tells me that digital circuits, of any type, make lots of noise that does make its way to the ground plane.
  
 And once there it will propagate to other devices over the common ground wiring.
  
 This is where the Akiko sticks come into play along with substituting LPS's for SMPS's and even using ferrite donuts on the ac mains power cable, etc.
  
 That is one of the reasons for measuring the noise on ground and on the +5Vdc in my RN3 while using both the SMPS and LPS.
  
 Thus far my experiments have focused upon 3 different areas of noise 'control', and are ranked thusly…
 #1 Generate less noise (LPS instead of SMPS).
 #2 Absorb (act like a sponge) as much noise on the ground plane as possible (Akiko sticks).
 #3 Block the propagation of the noise that gets dumped on the ground plane from spreading (ferrite chokes on the ac power cables).
  
 I am uncertain how much (as in a quantifiable amounts) each is contributing but the ranking above seems clear in terms of the SQ improvements.
  
 My next posts in my series called…,
*"What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
 or
 It’s all in our heads, or is it?"*
 was slated to dive into this subject, but it has become much bigger than I anticipated and so has taken more time to come to any conclusions, or even establish a grasp of the magnitude of this topic.
  
 I can say that replacing SMPS's with LPS's is a decided step up and I will be re-confirming that with my next LPS project which I am currently assembling and hope to have functioning this weekend.
  
 Ground, as I have noted previously, is a key aspect to achieving a degree of SQ that is truly stupendous, and we really haven't even scratched the surface yet.
  
 And ground is a tricky subject to investigate because it IS the reference we use to measure ALL other parameters from.
 And since it is THE reference what can we use to measure it, by itself, since there is no other reference available?
  
 A conundrum for sure.
  
 Lastly, one of the approaches I'm going to pursue is utilizing 'floating or isolated ground' as a means of limiting the noise that is added to the ground plane to see, if by not allowing it to propagate, does that have an effect upon the SQ in any way.
  
 Yeah it gets complex and in a big hurry.
  
 JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

JJ, thanks for taking the time to reply to my question.
  
 At least what you're saying is consistent from what I've read on the internet - basically it's clear as mud.
  
 Mostly trial and error, since nobody really seems to know.
  
 I think your right, it's very complicated. Probably not even worth discussing because of too many viewpoints, and unknowns (ie. no answers to why this or that is happening, other than try this or that).
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Jj, since the minimeets I've learned that separating the digital circuits to another completely different wiring run as well as "capping" said devices with a conditioner (like a furman ac215a) and having the analog gear on a separate power run to the breaker has yielded good results. I only wish i could've ran both digital and analog circuits with 12 gauge, my digital side of power is only 14g and also powers 4x 10w led bulbs. I figured out of all the gear the speaker and headphone amps are going to be the most thirsty, hence the thicker wire. 

It's actually an easy experiment with an extension cord if you know which outlets are in which lines. A matter of running an extension cord to an outlet on a different breaker.


----------



## johnjen

golfnutz said:


> JJ, thanks for taking the time to reply to my question.
> 
> At least what you're saying is consistent from what I've read on the internet - basically it's clear as mud.
> 
> ...


 
 And if you REALLY want to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion take into account the fact that ground itself isn't 'constant'.
 This fact was a huge concern back at the last century when the telegraph came onto the scene.
  
 I've been researching this aspect and there were some who actually pulled power from the ground to run lighting and even a few telegraphs etc.
  
 In today's view this isn't a commonly understood aspect of this topic.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Jj, since the minimeets I've learned that separating the digital circuits to another completely different wiring run as well as "capping" said devices with a conditioner (like a furman ac215a) and having the analog gear on a separate power run to the breaker has yielded good results. I only wish i could've ran both digital and analog circuits with 12 gauge, my digital side of power is only 14g and also powers 4x 10w led bulbs. I figured out of all the gear the speaker and headphone amps are going to be the most thirsty, hence the thicker wire.
> 
> It's actually an easy experiment with an extension cord if you know which outlets are in which lines. A matter of running an extension cord to an outlet on a different breaker.


 
 I can see where this would be a good thing to do, to separate the electronics that are digital from the analog signal gear.
  
 If for no other reason than helping to minimize the digital noise generated by the circuitry from getting into the analog gear.
  
 Propagation of this spurious noise, let alone it's generation in the 1st place seems to be significant in relation to the overall SQ delivered to our ears.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

For those that may be interested, here's a link http://www.decware.com/newsite/DECWARESOUND.pdf to an article about the science of sound written by Steve Deckert - the designer of my headphone amp.
  
 He talks about the 432Hz Musical Grid. Very interesting and an eye opener.


----------



## johnjen

So a quick status report of my latest SMPS to LPS conversion project.
  
 The LPS is up and powering my Mutec 3+ and has less than 1 hr of playing time, so a SQ report will have to wait till later.
  
 I'm not sure who originated the idea that the 3+ uses 6.3 Vdc, but I measured the SMPS at 5.094Vdc feeding the mainboard.
  
 So I set the voltage at 5.100Vdc and measured the current draw at 0.5350Amps while running with an AES signal passing thru.
  
 One note of caution for anyone who wants to remove the SMPS from the mainboard.
  
 The female XLR-3pin connector has a push to release 'button' that gets in the way of removing the board from the chassis.
 This means actually being able to remove the SMPS daughterboard is not gunna happen until the button is removed (I couldn't figure out how) or it is bent out of the way (which means the end of the button breaks off, which is what happened to me).
 This isn't a big deal for me but for some it would be 'better' to leave the SMPS in place and solder the LPS voltage wires to the header pins directly.
  
 And unsoldering those header pins from the mainboard is not for the inexperienced either.
 They are robust and don't unsolder easily.
  
 But as projects go, besides these small hurdles, it was fairly straight forward.
  
 And I'm just waiting for any shifts in SQ to give me an indication of the changes this mod makes.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

That's interesting because I did measure the voltage at 6.3v before proceeding to solder the 2 wires to the + and - header pins on the Mutec.
 But I did measure the Mutec USB version and assumed the same voltages for the non-USB Mutec's so could be that the USB version is 6.3v and the non-usb is 5v which means I need a LPs with 5v to power up the 2 non-USB in my chain.


----------



## Tand2016

johnjen said:


> So a quick status report of my latest SMPS to LPS conversion project.
> 
> The LPS is up and powering my Mutec 3+ and has less than 1 hr of playing time, so a SQ report will have to wait till later.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi JJ
  
 Regarding the removal of the XLR-3 pin. I found this on Devialet Chat, post #246. Maybe it can help:
  
So I also modded my Mutec today and removed the internal SMPS and IEC inlet. One of the DC power leads that came with the PH is now soldered directly to the mainboard power input of the original internal PSU. This has taken me quite some time BTW, To remove and desolder the SMPS the entire board had to be removed from the chassis and thus I had to also remove all 10 nuts from the BNC connectors etc. etc. It also took me a lot of time to figure out how to remove the push lever of the female XLR receptor. Without this there would be no way to get the board out. Luckily I found a manual otherwise I would have never figured it out. http://www.neutrik.com/zoolu-website/med...es+chassis
  
  
 http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=46&page=25
  
 Best Tommy


----------



## Muziqboy

OK did a quick check just now and indeed, the non-USB Mutec is powered at 5vdc and USB Mutec is powered at 6.3vdc which means I could use that low noise LT3042 regulator to power up the non-usb version.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> For those that may be interested, here's a link http://www.decware.com/newsite/DECWARESOUND.pdf to an article about the science of sound written by Steve Deckert - the designer of my headphone amp.
> 
> He talks about the 432Hz Musical Grid. Very interesting and an eye opener.


 
 That was a very interesting look into the origins of our musical note structure.
  
 Much to ponder there.
  
 Thanks   JJ


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> That's interesting because I did measure the voltage at 6.3v before proceeding to solder the 2 wires to the + and - header pins on the Mutec.
> But I did measure the Mutec USB version and assumed the same voltages for the non-USB Mutec's so could be that the USB version is 6.3v and the non-usb is 5v which means I need a LPs with 5v to power up the 2 non-USB in my chain.


 
 Excellent!
  
 And indeed clears up that bit of confusion.
  
 I do wonder why the usb version runs at the higher voltage though.
 A bit of a curiosity, that!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

tand2016 said:


> Hi JJ
> 
> Regarding the removal of the XLR-3 pin. I found this on Devialet Chat, post #246. Maybe it can help:
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent!
 Thanks for that link!
  
 I saw that slot and stuck a small screwdriver into it but it never released the 'latch'.
  
 So this means I can fix the broken push button.
  
 KEWL!
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> That was a very interesting look into the origins of our musical note structure.
> 
> Much to ponder there.
> 
> Thanks   JJ


 
  
 I think he is 1 of those highly intelligent and advanced beings and the reason why he produces such wonderful sounding equipment.
  
 So much musical soul in his amps.


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Excellent!
> 
> And indeed clears up that bit of confusion.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Might be that the addition of the USB module board is why it uses a higher voltage.
 I'm just guessing here.


----------



## Muziqboy

When I had the 6.3v LPS powering up the 2 Mutec (non-usb) and 1 Mutec USB, it did sounded good but seems like something was off to me, So I managed to dig up the old JAY's Audio 5v linear power supply that I had stashed away in storage and hooked that up to power the 2 Mutec (non-usb).
  
 Now we are talking! The vocals are more powerful with clarity and just jumps right at you.
  
 I was relieved that I did not mess up the 2 non-usb by over-powering it.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> Might be that the addition of the USB module board is why it uses a higher voltage.
> I'm just guessing here.


 
*Or perhaps that 'better' clock needs a higher voltage.*
*Just guessing as well…*
  


muziqboy said:


> When I had the 6.3v LPS powering up the 2 Mutec (non-usb) and 1 Mutec USB, it did sounded good but seems like something was off to me, So I managed to dig up the old JAY's Audio 5v linear power supply that I had stashed away in storage and hooked that up to power the 2 Mutec (non-usb).
> 
> Now we are talking! The vocals are more powerful with clarity and just jumps right at you.
> 
> I was relieved that I did not mess up the 2 non-usb by over-powering it.


 
*In theory the +5Vdc circuits can use 7.5Vdc (and higher in some cases).*
  
*It's interesting that even ≈1.3volts makes such a noticable SQ change.*
  
*And speaking of change…*
  
*My system is in the middle of blossom action, big time.*
  
*The top end has gained a whole new level of focus and inner details.*
  
*Cymbals snare drums and anything with top end sizzle now has additional details and has moar REALNESS.*
*Not to mention the mids are coming into finer and more articulate focus.*
*And the bottom end has gained additional refinement as well.*
  
*And this is still early in the settling in process.*
  
*WooooHoooo…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*
  
*JJ*


----------



## Muziqboy

Yup! REALNESS factor just jumped up another notch.
  
 Is there any end to these improvements? Hahahahaha!


----------



## johnjen

That's a really good question and one I don't really have an answer to.
  
 We keep finding more and more CP's and once they get dialed in the SQ keeps getting *'better'* and *'Better'*.
  
 It does raise the question of how much 'better' can it get though, doesn't it?
  
 Right now my heads on a swivel and my body is mov'n to the music while I sit and type this.
  
 Way Kewl.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I'm almost done with my write up (with pics and measurements) of my latest LPS implementation/build.
  
 And I must say that as this latest tweak settles in I am hearing more and more subtle and some not so subtle shifts and changes to the SQ.
  
 Gone seem to be the extreme swings of SQ as things settle in, from really great to ho-hum to TD (Toilet Dump).
 Now its *T3* and *HB&W* pretty much all the time, well unless I'm mesmerized, or break out in laughter, by what I'm hearing.
 Along with these new degree's of *REALISM* and *SUPERDUPERGLUE*, I still have 200+ hrs before the metallurgy peaks followed by the 2 LPS transplants etc.
  
 Yeah some fun now, lemme tell ya.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 And gefski have you looked into a LPS for your uD0 yet?
 I would bet that you will be as amazed as the rest of us are, with the results we are hearing.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## atomicbob

Adding an LPS to the Attero Tech unDAES-O is quite easy given the single supply 24V DC input. This one works very well for not much investment:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141718315599


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I'm almost done with my write up (with pics and measurements) of my latest LPS implementation/build.
> 
> And I must say that as this latest tweak settles in I am hearing more and more subtle and some not so subtle shifts and changes to the SQ.
> 
> ...




I keep looking at Acopian. Great looking stuff, U.S. Mfg, and atomicbob says those folks are really good. But you know I take my time on changes.

...and I keep looking over my shoulder toward California, afraid Mike Moffat is going to release his hinted at super duper isolated USB interface, ruining our Ethernet fun.


----------



## gefski

atomicbob said:


> Adding an LPS to the Attero Tech unDAES-O is quite easy given the single supply 24V DC input. This one works very well for not much investment:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141718315599




Hmm...plug and play, affordable. Thanks for the link.

I really like the look of Acopian, but it's not plug and play, more expensive.

I'll waffle around a while and discover more music.


----------



## Muziqboy

This http://www.ebay.com/itm/100VA-Ultra-low-Noise-LPS-R-core-Linear-power-supply-DC-5V-24V-With-display-/131867485038 is what I am using to power up the Mutec MC3+ usb. If you read the tech specs, it is *All-discrete topology - No IC (integrated circuits) are used - Low noise, high PSRR - and the output noise (unloaded) is less than 13µV at 24VDC output **and it uses a very robust r-core transformer.*
  
*I'm waiting on 2 more of these, 1 @ 5vdc to power up the 2 Mutec non-usb and 1 @ 17.5vdc to power up the Antelope Live Clock. A little bit more pricier but if you look at the internal shot, you'll see that it is really well built.*


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> This http://www.ebay.com/itm/100VA-Ultra-low-Noise-LPS-R-core-Linear-power-supply-DC-5V-24V-With-display-/131867485038 is what I am using to power up the Mutec MC3+ usb. If you read the tech specs, it is *All-discrete topology - No IC (integrated circuits) are used - Low noise, high PSRR - and the output noise (unloaded) is less than 13µV at 24VDC output **and it uses a very robust r-core transformer.*
> 
> *I'm waiting on 2 more of these, 1 @ 5vdc to power up the 2 Mutec non-usb and 1 @ 17.5vdc to power up the Antelope Live Clock. A little bit more pricier but if you look at the internal shot, you'll see that it is really well built.*


 
 What method to power 2 Mutec's from the single LPS?


----------



## Muziqboy

golfnutz said:


> What method to power 2 Mutec's from the single LPS?


 
  
 You can use this y-adapter https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GPRLQCC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
 Note that this is for the 2 non-usb Mutec's that is rated at 5vdc input. That LPS link I posted is rated at 5V/6A so it is more than enough current supply to handle the 2 Mutec's.
  
 Heck, it can even power up 3 non-usb Mutec's.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> You can use this y-adapter https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GPRLQCC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Note that this is for the 2 non-usb Mutec's that is rated at 5vdc input. That LPS link I posted is rated at 5V/6A so it is more than enough current supply to handle the 2 Mutec's.
> 
> Heck, it can even power up 3 non-usb Mutec's.


 

 I have that LPS already. Just didn't know if you were going to use y-cable or modify the LPS itself. Please let us know how it turns out (may influence my next purchase). Thanks.


----------



## Muziqboy

I am already using that y-adapter on a Jays Audio 5v lps with good results but the specs on the MeiYAN LPS is even better and the LPS itself is more robust than the Jays.
 The Jays really get hot when powering up both Mutec's and is only rated at 5v / 2A.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> I am already using that y-adapter on a Jays Audio 5v lps with good results but the specs on the MeiYAN LPS is even better and the LPS itself is more robust than the Jays.
> The Jays really get hot when powering up both Mutec's and is only rated at 5v / 2A.


 

 I have a Jay's too. It's the one with the dual DC plugs on the back (set to 9v). I run two FMC modules off it, no issues with heat at all.


----------



## Muziqboy

IMO the Mutecs consume more power and current compared to the FMC modules that is why the Jays really get hot. U can fry an egg on top of it.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> IMO the Mutecs consume more power and current compared to the FMC modules that is why the Jays really get hot. U can fry an egg on top of it.


 
 I'm guessing, but I would suspect your Jay's LPS is 5v/3.5A
  
 Someone posted what they thought was the SMPS being used by the Mutec as the following:


  I would assume it's the NFM-15-5, rated at 3A. Not sure what the Mutec is actually pulling, but they could be getting close to 3A when combining them.


----------



## Muziqboy

The one i got has a DC out socket and a USB socket. It is rated for 2.5amp max.


----------



## johnjen

I measured the Mutec 3+ at 0.56Amps which is ≈ 1/2 of the RN3.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*LPS strikes another blow for Realness*
 or
*If you have ANY SMPS’s in your system, you haven’t truly heard what your system is capable of.
 er sumpt’n*

 So this wild hair-brained idea goes PoP in my head.
  
 Make a true, dual output, completely isolated, LPS.
 And not just isolated from one channel to the other, but from ground as well,
 using the ground connection made at the load (Mutec 3+ in this case).
  
 Why?
 Because this way I can provide power to the desired digital device and minimize spreading its ground plane noise, using the common ac power ground plane.
 Which in turn can help keep it from ‘getting into’ the analog gear,
 where it doesn’t belong,
 at all.
  
 That was my thinking which led me to configure a ‘robust’, well for our measly power needs anyway, LPS with sufficiently low noise and capacity.
 And I realized it costs about the same as my previous LPS installed in my RN3.
 Case included, but there were a few ‘incidental’ costs associated with an external box vs internal installation.
 Which in turn added ≈ $50 more for switch, fuse block, terminal block, gland fittings hardware and wire.
  
 And this would allow me to see if this isolation technique would be of any value.
 And I can at any time connect the, already in the box, ac power supplied ground.
 Just to see.
  
 So I ordered all the stuff and waited for it all to miraculously just appear upon my doorstep.
 Which it did, all the way from China.
  
 And since I wanted 2 separate ‘channels’ it means each one of the dual secondaries was going to be used by itself, so a ‘larger’ capacity transformer was needed.
 So here’s the transformer.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141826005951
  
 pic of transformer

  
 And since I wanted a true dual channel regulator not just 2 outputs from the same regulator,
 here’s the dual channel regulator board
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/182209407730
  
 pic of reg board

  
 The box was a bit larger than needed but not by a wasteful amount, as its extra size made it easier to ‘build out’.
 So the box to house it all in.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/162202150332
  
 pic of box finished

  
 And here again these numbers aren’t exact but are meant for clarity and simplicity, and are ‘good enough’…
 65VA seemed like it should suffice which means each channel gets 32.5VA which = 2.7Amps at 12Vac.
 So at 5Vdc x 2.7Amps = 13.5Watts.
  
 And as it turns out the power draw from my Mutec 3+ is 0.56Amps = 2.8Watts.
 This leaves plenty of headroom.
 But that’s getting ahead of this story.
  
 So I built it out and took a few pics of the before, during, and after.
  
 externl mntg

  
 ac wiring

  
 extrnl frnt

  
 extrnl rear

  
 intrnl frnt open

  
 intrnl rear open

  
 bottom

  
 And of course I took a few measurements of its noise, using the same scope I’ve used previously.
 And it quickly became apparent that the output from this regulator board was pushing the limits of my scope in terms of resolution.
  
 So again here are the 3 different means of measuring the noise for the ‘left’ and ‘right’ channel outputs into a 7.5K resistor (a minuscule load).
  
                   L channel                                       R channel
 Norm              1mv                                                1mv
 Average       0.3mv                                             0.2mv
 Envelope     3.7mv (6.7mv with all spikes)         4.8mv (6.0mv w/spikes)
  
 There were very low level, low duration, hi freq spikes at ≈ .18µs (5.5MHz), .118µs (8.5MHz), 0.08µs (12.5MHz)
 How they got created and from where, I can only guess.
  
 Even so, these levels of noise are below what I measured from my RN3 when it was being powered by my external LPS.
 link to post   http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/780#post_13218514
  
 And I’ll follow up with measurements while running, from both the RN3 and my Mutec 3+ while being fed by their new LPS’s, in due course.
 I first wanted to determine if this course of action was going to be ‘Better’ or not and it has exceeded my expectations and in ways I never suspected, but has done so much to my delight.
  
 My take away is the use of SMPS’s mask inner detail and obscure meaningful musical information, which reduces our involvement in the music.
  
 At least that is what I have come to understand as I hear these results in my playback system.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

Nice write up JJ! I think SMPS tech is flawed for audio. I don't understand all the tech but I understand one of the biggest negative besides noise and polluting other gear in the system is,  it has high ripple distortion at the top an bottom of the sine wave. This has to affect audio quality IMO. 
  
 Which begs the question, why do so many audio products fit them? It must be the ability to accept 110 - 230 AC maybe? So mains voltage issues in various country and less hassle stocking different versions. That and the fact SMPS's are possibly cheaper and can be standardised to an extent. Many of the Rednet boxes have the same unit it seems.
  
 The other thought is space and heat. In a DAC with a slim case, I can imagine that would suit an SMPS.
  
 Having said that, once you get to 1K+ audio products, there should be no reason a decent manufacturer should need to use an SMPS?
  

  

 On this subject, I did the Uptone Audio Mac Mini mod to rip out the SMPS and feed it 12V DC. That had a BIG change for the better. 
 The DC feed goes in where the headphone socket was. The mod is very fiddly as small parts and little space. It is also difficult the take apart. But well worth the effort.
  
 I must say, I dig these kind of mods, they are relatively cheap especially in audio terms, you do it yourself and then enjoy the positives, what can be better than that? 
  
 BTW spot the cut outs I did on the iMac stand base, it allows me to sit the Mac Mini on the monitor base and send the cables straight through the back of the stand.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 SMPS designs offer a number of advantages to designers and equipment manufacturers, but none for hi-end audio, at least as far as I can see.
 Especially since they generate so much noise.
  
 And I figure that designers justify their use because the noise they generate is 'out of band', so it shouldn't matter, except it can and does.
 Especially when it propagates into the ground that analog gear is also connected to.
  
 And from strictly a design POV if you don't create noise in the first place, you don't have to 'compensate' for it elsewhere.
 The KISS principle in action.
  
 This as I see it, is in keeping with our desired goal of achieving fully 120dB capable playback systems.
 Which means the noise floor of ground should be at least -120dB.
  
 This is a HUGE technical hurdle, one we won't be solving quickly.
  
 It would be really kewl if we had a inverse MOV type of device, one that sucked up low voltage hi freq spikes, which is sorta what the Akiko sticks/cannisters do but they seem to be most effective at very high frequencies and don't seem to reach down even to 100KHz (that was what I noticed from the FR graphs I saw).
  
 As for the modding of our gear to better suit our individual needs and the satisfaction we gain by doing so, well one of our rewards is *HMMAIAA* (Hearing MY Music As If Anew, Again).
 Along with the added insights and learning we gain from the experience.
  
 Besides I'm really dig'n the results I'm hearing.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And now that I see the Mac Mini I can appreciate what you did there.
  
 NICE!
  
 Yeah that is a 'sano' install for sure.
  
 And for another,
  
 here is Musiqboys setup using a windows NµC
  

  
  
 It feeds the RN3 and the rest of his digital stack, which now includes a few LPS's that have been added to the mix.
  
 Very Nice.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

The Talema transformer and the PC board for it arrived today but no LT3042 yet so the RN3 mod will have to wait. But the LPS for the Antelope Live Clock Reference Master Clock should be here by Monday.
  
 And right now with the LPS's for the 3 Mutec's running, it has revealed more details that was hidden before by the noise of the SMPS's.
 Yeah! I am diggin' this step up yet again in the SQ. SuperDuperGlue experience indeed.
  
 If you remember JJ, during the last meet I told you that I will just mod the PSU of the Mutec usb since it is the last device before the DAC and it did added to the increase in SQ but I was surprised by another SQ step up with the LPS mod on the 2 Mutec non-usb. So I'm wondering what the LPS for the Live Clock will bring to the table.
  
 Guess I'll find out on Monday. Can't stop listening right now.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah last night was a late night here as well.
 SuperDuperGlue makes it REALLY difficult to stop listening.
  
 And today I upgraded the ac power cable to the dual LPS and took some measurements while it was playing music.
  
 I'll write up those results here in a bit.
  
 And I still haven't hit that SQ peak yet and to a certain extent it doesn't matter because right now the acoustic presentation is compelling in and of itself.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

*Voltage and power measurements of the dual LPS in operation.*
  
 So while I was upgrading the ac power cable from a Gen-1 to a Gen-4 cable on my dual LPS which feeds my Mutec 3+, I figured I take some measurements as well.
  
 Input current at 120Vac = 0.135A with a peak of 0.14Amps, which makes it 16.8 Watts of input power.
 And using the previously measured draw of 0.56Amps x 5Vdc = 2.8Watts of power being used by the Mutec.
  
 Which makes it 16.7% efficient and is ‘wasting’ 14Watts of power, mostly as heat.
 And using the Tek scope, I measured the noise in 3 ways…
  
                   R Channel                                 R Channel Under load
 Norm             1mv                                     7.5mv (no/spikes) - 13.5mv (w/spikes)
 Average      0.2mv                                     1.2mv (no/spikes) - 2.5mv (w/spikes)
 Envelope     4.8mv (6.0mv w/spikes)         19mv (no/spikes) - 22mv (w/spikes)
  
 I also measured the noise and frequency of the few ’non-random’ portions of the noise.
 I saw…
 0.95µS = 1.05MHz
 1.1µS = 909KHz
 19mS = 52Hz
  
 The amplitude of these are reflected in the noise measurements above.
  
 And as you can see the increase in noise contributed by the active digital circuit, while minimal, is still 4-6 times greater than what the LPS ‘brings to the party'.
  
 Next up I’ll measure the RN3’s LPS noise using resistors and the active digital load, and make power usage measurements as well.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

LPS for the Antelope Live Clock arrived this morning so I hooked it up and let the voltage stabilize for a bit.
 OMG! I can't believe the increase in Dynamics, more inner details that I have not heard was being revealed.
*REALISM* took another bump up.
  
 JJ, this really proves at least to me that those clocks are really sensitive to the quality of power that you feed it.
  
 I'm waiting for the postman to drop off my LT3042 then I can begin modding the PSU in the RN3 but I'm afraid after I do that, I will never want to take the headphones off my head ever. LOL.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## astrostar59

I too am waiting for my LT3042 LPS kit from Ebay. Ordered it on the 22nd Feb, should be soon now. Lets keep in touch.


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> LPS for the Antelope Live Clock arrived this morning so I hooked it up and let the voltage stabilize for a bit.
> OMG! I can't believe the increase in Dynamics, more inner details that I have not heard was being revealed.
> *REALISM* took another bump up.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah greatly reducing or killing all of that upper frequency noise and those fast and intermittent spikes coming from the SMPS's, really does pay off.
 And not generating them in the first place so all that noise can't spread to other gear may play as significant a role in the SQ increases we are hearing as well.
 At least that is my thinking at this point.
  
 And we may have to come up with a replacement term above and beyond *SuperDuperGlue*.
 What it might be I'm not sure yet, but I figure it'll make itself known in due course.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Enjoy HMMAIAA, as the system settles down.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Well after about 8 hours of surgery, I'm happy to report that the lps install in the RN3 was a success.
 I was going to take some pics but forgot about it and put it all back in a hurry to do some listening. Clarity and articulation took another bump up. I can clearly hear every word being said. I'm afraid this will be another long listening session.


----------



## astrostar59

muziqboy said:


> Well after about 8 hours of surgery, I'm happy to report that the lps install in the RN3 was a success.
> I was going to take some pics but forgot about it and put it all back in a hurry to do some listening. Clarity and articulation took another bump up. I can clearly hear every word being said. I'm afraid this will be another long listening session.


 

 Nice. 8 hours, wow, maybe this mod is more complicated than I thought? Did you have any problems with the instal?
  
 From past new gear experiences, I would think you may see further improvements yup to a week at least (on 24/7). The caps in the supply need to burn in.
  
 I look forward to your review, inc the affect of the LPS on the Antelope clock. My chain is much more basic than yours, I will probably stop at the LPS mod on  the Rednet, as no funds for a Mutec.


----------



## Muziqboy

astrostar59 said:


> Nice. 8 hours, wow, maybe this mod is more complicated than I thought? Did you have any problems with the instal?
> 
> From past new gear experiences, I would think you may see further improvements yup to a week at least (on 24/7). The caps in the supply need to burn in.
> 
> I look forward to your review, inc the affect of the LPS on the Antelope clock. My chain is much more basic than yours, I will probably stop at the LPS mod on  the Rednet, as no funds for a Mutec.


 
  
 It took me that long since this is the first time I modded an internal psu. I was taking my time and being meticulous about it plus I was taking a lot of breaks in-between.
 If you've done internal psu install before, it may take you only half of that time or less. I'll open it back up later and take some pics.


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> muziqboy said:
> 
> 
> > That's interesting because I did measure the voltage at 6.3v before proceeding to solder the 2 wires to the + and - header pins on the Mutec.
> ...


 

 I read the Mutec+ USB has a different board and clock, so maybe the reason?


----------



## astrostar59

JJ
 A quick question. My LPS is due to arrive soon. I am unsure on the wiring at the plastic box connection at the SMPS and PCB. Are there only 3 wires there? i.e. 2 x 5VDC and one ground?
  
 I have got the replacement top box for that connection and will solder new push fit ends to then make a press fit connection as opposed to hard wired. Got some spares as well incase I bust any with the crimping pliers. Can't wait for the mod.


----------



## Golfnutz

muziqboy said:


> It took me that long since this is the first time I modded an internal psu. I was taking my time and being meticulous about it plus I was taking a lot of breaks in-between.
> If you've done internal psu install before, it may take you only half of that time or less. I'll open it back up later and take some pics.


 
 If your changes are the same as JJ's, you removed the PCB board to solder the 5v and Ground wires underneath, than had to reassemble the whole thing back again.
  
 I believe Astrostar59 is going to use a new JST XH connector instead of soldering. This will probably save 2-3 hours right there.


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> JJ
> A quick question. My LPS is due to arrive soon. I am unsure on the wiring at the plastic box connection at the SMPS and PCB. Are there only 3 wires there? i.e. 2 x 5VDC and one ground?
> 
> I have got the replacement top box for that connection and will solder new push fit ends to then make a press fit connection as opposed to hard wired. Got some spares as well incase I bust any with the crimping pliers. Can't wait for the mod.


 

 What do you mean by *'will solder new push fit ends'*?
  
 If you're referring to the JST XH connector, you shouldn't be soldering that, or the wires to the pins. You only need the crimping tool. You can test the wires after you've inserted them into the JST XH connector with a multimeter to make sure you've done it correctly.


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> What do you mean by *'will solder new push fit ends'*?
> 
> If you're referring to the JST XH connector, you shouldn't be soldering that, or the wires to the pins. You only need the crimping tool. You can test the wires after you've inserted them into the JST XH connector with a multimeter to make sure you've done it correctly.


 
 I was asking JJ about the wiring colouring to follow. I haven't taken the Rednet apart yet. How many wires are in the XH connector?
  
 Yes, you are correct, I crimp only, sorry, was not considering that.


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> If your changes are the same as JJ's, you removed the PCB board to solder the 5v and Ground wires underneath, than had to reassemble the whole thing back again.
> 
> I believe Astrostar59 is going to use a new JST XH connector instead of soldering. This will probably save 2-3 hours right there.


 
 Correct, I grabbed that idea of Golfnutz.


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> Correct, I grabbed that idea of Golfnutz.


 

 Use 1 or both 5v and the Ground.


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> JJ
> A quick question. My LPS is due to arrive soon. I am unsure on the wiring at the plastic box connection at the SMPS and PCB. Are there only 3 wires there? i.e. 2 x 5VDC and one ground?
> 
> snip


 
 The existing ribbon cable has 8 wires of which we only need 3, 2) +5Vdc, and 1) ground.
 I used 2 wires to connect to ground, just because I could and it helps 'balance' the wiring to feed the power to the mainboard.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Here are some pics of the install I did.
  
 Full install.

  
  
 Talema transformer mounted inside the RN3.

  
  
  
  
  
 Hardware I used to mount the Talema transformer.

  
  
 Bottom pic of the screws for the mounted transformer.

  
  
 How I mounted the fuse holder.

  
  
 Fuse holder that I used.

  
  
 For the regulator board, I just used this http://www.gorillatough.com/gorilla-heavy-duty-mounting-tape
 and made 4 layers thick to rise the board up about 1/4 inch. It also doubles up as an insulation for the exposed solder joints on the bottom of the regulator board.

  
  
 So from the switch to the transformer all the way to the regulator, I used 22ga. silver wiring doubled up to increase the gauge.


----------



## Golfnutz

Nice, especially for your first attempt.
  
 So you didn't solder the 5v and ground wires to the PCB, you used the existing ribbon cable and either cut the remaining 5 wires (or pull the wires out - can't tell).


----------



## Muziqboy

Yeah just gutted the 5 wires that's not needed and used that existing ribbon cable.


----------



## johnjen

Excellent!
  
 It's good to see alternative approaches to adding a LPS to these Rednet boxes.  :thumb
  
 And now for the fruits of your labors, getting to listen to the added SQ that this yields!
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Correct, I grabbed that idea of Golfnutz.
> ...


 
 Thanks Golfnutz, that is what I was after.


----------



## astrostar59

muziqboy said:


> Yeah just gutted the 5 wires that's not needed and used that existing ribbon cable.


 
 I am not sure, but you didn't need to mount the ground wire to the base of the chassis as JJ did?
  
 BTW what is the huge black tube? Is it a mains filter.


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Excellent!
> 
> It's good to see alternative approaches to adding a LPS to these Rednet boxes.  :thumb
> 
> ...


 
  
 Been listening to the rig for 10 hrs straight and my jaw has dropped all the way to the floor. lol


----------



## Muziqboy

astrostar59 said:


> I am not sure, but you didn't need to mount the ground wire to the base of the chassis as JJ did?
> 
> BTW what is the huge black tube? Is it a mains filter.


 
  
 I tapped a wire from the negative side of the ribbon cable and soldered the other end to the grounding point of the earth ground.
  
 That huge black tube is the Akiko Triple AC enhancer which I modified and soldered directly also to that grounding point of earth ground.
 What it does as JJ has explained before is it acts like a sponge and absorbs any noise riding on the ground plane. The Akiko sticker on the tube also acts like the WA Quantum stickers in which it suppresses any stray EMI/RFI lurking inside and around the digital circuits.
  
 Have you done your RN3 lps mods yet?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## astrostar59

Hi Muziqboy
  
 Cool, nice idea the mains filter.
  
 My kit arrived today so I will do it this week and post my findings. I think 140 USD for the bits and upgrading of the Rednet 3 that costs 900 USD is a good idea / nice value ratio.


----------



## Muziqboy

The lps mod is very worth it for the RN3 and thanks a lot to JJ for taking the lead on this and doing all the homework for us.
 As you can see, I'm still awake and can't stop listening to my rig and it is already way past my bedtime. lol


----------



## astrostar59

muziqboy said:


> The lps mod is very worth it for the RN3 and thanks a lot to JJ for taking the lead on this and doing all the homework for us.
> As you can see, I'm still awake and can't stop listening to my rig and it is already way past my bedtime. lol


 

 I noticed you use the Theta Gen VA. Interesting vintage DAC indeed. I run an 2008 Audio Note DAC 5 which is also old school but R-2R and tubed. The design basically dates back to 2002 with some modifications. It has no up sampling and no filter with SPDIF or AES input only. I got it used as the new price (still made today) is insanely expensive.
  
 I dropped USB after quite a lot of fixers and decrapifiers all with LPS and maxed out. The Rednet is a lot smoother and less digital IMO.


----------



## Muziqboy

Early on last year, Dante and Ravenna were being discussed as possible alternate to USB transports on Rob's Audio over IP and XMOS thread. @mhamel was the first one to try the Rednet D16 on a home setting and was convinced that it sounded way better than usb. Then I took the plunge following his lead and was the first to try out the RN3 and Mutec combo and reported my findings on Rob's XMOS thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1830#post_12606908
  
 And ever since that day, I turned my back to usb and never looked back. I keep on saying REALISM and it is what I felt the Rednet's advantage is compared to usb in SQ. And with this recent addition of lps's, it has widened the gap even further.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## astrostar59

muziqboy said:


> Early on last year, Dante and Ravenna were being discussed as possible alternate to USB transports on Rob's Audio over IP and XMOS thread. @mhamel was the first one to try the Rednet D16 on a home setting and was convinced that it sounded way better than usb. Then I took the plunge following his lead and was the first to try out the RN3 and Mutec combo and reported my findings on Rob's XMOS thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1830#post_12606908
> 
> And ever since that day, I turned my back to usb and never looked back. I keep on saying REALISM and it is what I felt the Rednet's advantage is compared to usb in SQ. And with this recent addition of lps's, it has widened the gap even further.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 I bought my Rednet 6 months back and never looked back. But I have tried to promote awareness to AOIP at whatsbestforum and on head-case, but got attacked for trying. A lot of folk have already invested in USB, or possibly are obsessed with HQ player and up sampling DSD to insane levels. And of course Dante at the moment 'only' support 192K. The SPDIF interface is apparently limited to 192K. I have no such interest in mass up sampling data, indeed I see Redbook as 'high resolution' if it is done well. I also can listen to MQA at 96K which sounds superb. 
  
 If a consumer version was introduced that was possibly a bit smaller, in black or aluminium and maybe simpler to set up the software, it would her flying out the door IMO. The trouble is up sampling to such high levels which seems to be the current trend amonst many defeats the option of the Rednet system.


----------



## mourip

muziqboy said:


> Early on last year, Dante and Ravenna were being discussed as possible alternate to USB transports on Rob's Audio over IP and XMOS thread. @mhamel was the first one to try the Rednet D16 on a home setting and was convinced that it sounded way better than usb. Then I took the plunge following his lead and was the first to try out the RN3 and Mutec combo and reported my findings on Rob's XMOS thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1830#post_12606908
> 
> And ever since that day, I turned my back to usb and never looked back. I keep on saying REALISM and it is what I felt the Rednet's advantage is compared to usb in SQ. And with this recent addition of lps's, it has widened the gap even further.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  


astrostar59 said:


> ... I have tried to promote awareness to AOIP at whatsbestforum and on head-case, but got attacked for trying. A lot of folk have already invested in USB, or possibly are obsessed with HQ player and up sampling DSD to insane levels. And of course Dante at the moment 'only' support 192K. The SPDIF interface is apparently limited to 192K. I have no such interest in mass up sampling data, indeed I see Redbook as 'high resolution' if it is done well. I also can listen to MQA at 96K which sounds superb.


 
  
 I tried to get interest going on The Computer Audiophile but similarly got very little enthusiasm. It is sad because a couple of years ago it was THE Place to find fresh experimentation for computer audio. Now it seems to be a very conservative with folks defending the status quo with very closed minds.
  
 Head-Fi seems to be doing the ground breaking these days...


----------



## astrostar59

mourip said:


> Head-Fi seems to be doing the ground breaking these days...


 
 If you stray to HC forum, wear a hard hat.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hello DiYrs, I'm in need of solid opinion. I've run across an amp that is only set for 220v use with 60w consumption. Would using a step-up transformer degrade SQ? Would the transformer, should I get a 200 or 300w unit constantly consume that wattage or only what the amp consumes?

Hoping from some insight! Thanks gents


----------



## johnjen

Say there.
  
 My 2¢.
 The transformer will only 'use' the power demanded of it, plus the power it needs to operate.
 IOW based upon it's overall efficiency it will be the power demand from the amp plus its own power usage.
  
 An example.
 If the transformer were 50% efficient and the amp were running at 100% power draw then the total power draw would be 60W + 30W = 90Watts of draw at the 120Vac source.
  
 Also note that transformers tend to loose efficiency as lower amounts of power are passed thru them.
 But this also means there is greater 'headroom' for peak current demands if the capacity of the transformer is greater than the demand.
 And while our audio gear doesn't present a constant demand for power, like a lightbulb or fan would, the peak to average power demand isn't anywhere the same as big power amps are.
  
 Bottom line I'd opt for the 200Watt transformer, because even if the transformer were only 10% efficient the total power draw would be 60W + 54W = 114Watts.
  
 And just to throw an extra twist into this (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) if you can configure the output from this transformer to be 'balanced' ie. 2 legs of 110Vac vs. a 'hot' 220Vac leg and a 0Vac leg like our existing ac power is, it would 'optimize' the power feed to the amp.
 But be aware that there would be no neutral leg in this setup, which means that ground and neutral CANNOT be tied together in the amp, nor the transformer itself.
 This usually is the way our gear is setup, but it is a factor to be aware of, especially if the amp is an unknown device, so to speak.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So my next project is coming together.
  
 I've been waiting for the right set of circumstances to dial in my tweaks on my 800's for a while now.
  
 And thanks due to a post of Atomic Bob's, which provided the link…
 I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these.

  
  
 https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone
  
 These guys are local and fairly inexpensive, well compared to the 7K$ 'Standard Head' anyway.
  
 And of course I've already figured how I will modify it to serve my needs a bit better.
  
 And since this will cut the time of determining how well my tweaks are, well, tweaked, I'll be able to zero in on either a range or a particular set of parameters that will yield 'Better' or perhaps even 'Best' results,
 As in Gen-4, where currently I'm at Gen-2.5.
  
 I still am waiting on a few replacement parts from Sennheiser and there will be a learning curve in terms of setup and calibration between this binaural mic and the REW s/w it will feed.
  
 This is gunna speed up the tweaking process by a WHOLE bunch.
  
 I'll just have to make sure the puppy is asleep before I start taking measurements… 
 I have nicknamed him Mr. Barkley Bear, for a reason…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Thanks JJ, I'll be sure to tag you in my findings. I found the Cayin iha6 for $250 less than retail even with shipping but it's 220v only. Which makes me wonder if they cut corners on a new/different internal lps from the original switchable.



johnjen said:


> Say there.
> 
> My 2¢.
> The transformer will only 'use' the power demanded of it, plus the power it needs to operate.
> ...






johnjen said:


> So my next project is coming together.
> 
> I've been waiting for the right set of circumstances to dial in my tweaks on my 800's for a while now.
> 
> ...




Binaural ears/mic?! Will you be recording??

miceblue had some wearable mics that doubled for binaural iirc..


----------



## johnjen

soundsgoodtome said:


> Thanks JJ, I'll be sure to tag you in my findings. I found the Cayin iha6 for $250 less than retail even with shipping but it's 220v only. Which makes me wonder if they cut corners on a new/different internal lps from the original switchable.
> 
> Binaural ears/mic?! Will you be recording??
> 
> @miceblue had some wearable mics that doubled for binaural iirc..


 
 Most audio gear while being configured for 220Vac and be modified to operate on 120Vac by simply changing the input wiring to it's transformer.
 Much like the input wiring of the Telama transformer I used in the LPS mod to my RN3.
  
 Instead of wiring the two primary windings in series (220Vac configuration) if they are wired in parallel (120Vac configuration) you would have no need for the step up transformer.
  
 This is very common because the transformers can then be used worldwide instead of just in the US/Canada etc. vs just Europe etc.
  
 And it usually is just a matter of changing a couple of jumpers, which are usually soldered to the mainboard.
  
  
 As for binaural recording, perhaps, but that would be a secondary usage.
 And it would be relatively easy since the mic preamp I'll be using is portable, and the entire system can run off an iPad which would be the recording device as well.
  
 But that would be more of a 'novelty' use since most binaural recordings I've heard usually are meant to impress but  don't involve music that I would normally listen to one way or the other.
  
 So this is mostly a data gathering and verification tool to help perfect dialing in my 800's.
 And these same techniques can be used for other headphones as well, which would be the next step in my research.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

I ran across this short 12 minute animated film and thought that a few of you would appreciate it.
 I know I certainly did.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 https://youtu.be/TeQi4zbT8fA
 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So at long last I'm not just pointed at a SQ peak but there is initial blossom action as well.
 Currently I'm at ≈ 1230hrs on the break in of the metallurgical experiment I began on Jan 19th.
  
 The extreme low bass has begun to return as has that leading edge dynamic impact I mentioned previously.
  
 And I can't think of a single acoustic descriptor that I use to describe what is truly '*Better*', for me, that hasn't taken a step (or 2 or 3) up as well.
  
 And I figure the peak may still be ≈100 hrs away, as this initial up step in SQ may just be (like last time) but a mere reflection of what is to come.
  
 We'll see, or rather hear, what is to come.
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johnjen said:


> Most audio gear while being configured for 220Vac and be modified to operate on 120Vac by simply changing the input wiring to it's transformer.
> Much like the input wiring of the Telama transformer I used in the LPS mod to my RN3.
> 
> Instead of wiring the two primary windings in series (220Vac configuration) if they are wired in parallel (120Vac configuration) you would have no need for the step up transformer.
> ...


 
 JJ, just to conclude I ordered two types of step-up transformers from Amazon which arrived today. Krieger 350W and Dynastar 300W which seem to be the standard run of the mill step-up transformer box that keeps being rebranded and sold for an array of prices. The Krieger is not only dead quiet in operation, the sound quality coming out of it is very much transparent over the Dynastar - which literally vibrates when operating (it's going back).

 Price differences is more than double however, the Dynastar 300W is $30 and Krieger 350W is $70. The Dynastar, peeping into the gills uses a standard El-type transformer while the Krieger is using a torroid. If anyone is interested in a piece of equipment that may be available much cheaper from an INTL seller or perhaps the equipment is rare and is set for  220V without a switchable power, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Krieger transformers for the sensitive audio duties. Just make sure you have enough headroom calculating at 150% of consumption in wattage.
  


Spoiler: da deals



BTW if anyone is looking for a transparent balanced amp with seemingly good marks from multiple sources, the Cayin i-HA6 is being sold for cheaps. Plus the $70 transformer or you could probably go with the 150W Krieger for $45 and you're $250-275 less than retail new. A little communication barrier from the seller but he/she seems honest and easy to work with. Ebay seller Aoshida item 252693278985


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> *LPS strikes another blow for Realness*
> or
> *If you have ANY SMPS’s in your system, you haven’t truly heard what your system is capable of.
> er sumpt’n*
> ...


 
  
 Nice work. Can you possibly tell me how tall the PS board is from board bottom to highest part?


----------



## johnjen

Say there and thanks for the kudos!
  
 The dimensional specs for the board only list the width and depth as 83 x 73mm.
 And judging by the pictures the height is less than 73mm by ≈ 1/3rd.
 So a guess is ≈ 50mm.
  
 And if I remember to measure it the next time I open up the case, I'll post up that measurement.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> Say there and thanks for the kudos!
> 
> The dimensional specs for the board only list the width and depth as 83 x 73mm.
> And judging by the pictures the height is less than 73mm by ≈ 1/3rd.
> ...


 
 Thanks. No rush. My D16 is only 1U thick so I do not have much height to play with. Might just stay external.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah 1.75" of height is a limitation for sure.
  
 And 50mms of height is 1.9" which is just a touch to much height, and that doesn't take into account standoffs or other forms of insulation to elevate the board.
  
 Unless a transformer and regulator board can be found with ≤1.5" heights, such as this transformer with a 30mm = 1.2" height (which won't fit in the same space as the existing SMPS, assuming it uses the same unit the RN3 uses (which is probably a safe bet).…
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4N-OFC-O-core-audio-transformer-DAC-preamp-50VA-AC18-0-18V-0-9V-0-9V-/131595356897?hash=item1ea3b1cae1
  
 As for the regulator board, that might take a bit of sleuthing to find a low profile board.
  
 So, I figure that for most, the D16 will be more easily modded using an external LPS, although the end result won't be as simple since there are now 2 boxes to deal with.
  
 Still, this upgrade is well worth the effort and cost, at least from what I'm hearing in my system anyway.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> Yeah 1.75" of height is a limitation for sure.
> 
> And 50mms of height is 1.9" which is just a touch to much height, and that doesn't take into account standoffs or other forms of insulation to elevate the board.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the added detail. I think I will try my Mutec USB first since it re-samples just before the Yggy. My HDPlex has one output that is variable so I can set it to 6.3v easily...


----------



## astrostar59

John, my 9V Talema Transformer for the Rednet 3 is still due as the supplier on Ebay sent me 115/115 25VA -  7V by mistake. In the meantime, can I ask something?
  
 I know the wiring from the JST XH connector (thanks Golfnutz). I am unsure of the output terminals on the LPS PCB. It has 4 small pads, and underneath the PCB it says 5V at pad 4 and Ground for the middle 2 or 3 pad (seen from the top as 1,2,3,4 with 4 being far right pad.
  
 Can I assume pad 1 and 4 is 5V outputs and pad 2 and 3 are GRND? And we use both 5V Pads as there are 2 x 5V connections on the JST XH. I would also run the ground from JST XH out and via a chassis bolt on to the 2 x GRND pads on the LPS PCB.
  
 It this correct?
  
 Oddly the pic on Ebay below shows the pad 1 and 4 shorted, but my supplied LPS doesn't have that connection. Should I short it as well?
  
  
  
  
  
 I have 2 weeks to wait now before it lands.
  
 Thanks guys.


----------



## Muziqboy

The Talema I installed in the RN3 is a 115/115 15VA-7V and it is running perfect. You would have been fine with that Talema they sent you.
  
 On the LT3042, you are correct that pins 1 and 4 are both +5v, 2 and 3 are both ground. You can double check this with a multimeter.
 I connected pin 1 of the regulator to 1 of the +5v input on the RN3 and pin 4 of the regulator to the other +5v input of the RN3.
 You can short the pin 2 and 3 of the regulator and run that to the negative input of the RN3 as I have done.


----------



## astrostar59

Hi Muziqboy
 Thanks, that is most helpful.


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> John, my 9V Talema Transformer for the Rednet 3 is still due as the supplier on Ebay sent me 115/115 25VA -  7V by mistake. In the meantime, can I ask something?
> 
> I know the wiring from the JST XH connector (thanks Golfnutz). I am unsure of the output terminals on the LPS PCB. It has 4 small pads, and underneath the PCB it says 5V at pad 4 and Ground for the middle 2 or 3 pad (seen from the top as 1,2,3,4 with 4 being far right pad.
> 
> ...


 
 Pins 2-3 are the 'ground' or -5Vdc connection, and pins 1-4 are the +5Vdc.
 And yes I used both of the +5Vdc as well as both of the -5Vdc pins.
  
 On my board the 2-3 pins were soldered together and 1-4 were not (unlike the picture above) so I used one wire (of the pair) to each of the +5Vdc pins and both of the ground wires to the jumpered grounds (pins 2-3).
  
 And as Musiqboy stated the dual secondary 7Vac windings are perfectly fine for this application.
 And remember that 7Vac is 7 x 1.4 = 9.8Vdc which gets regulated down to 5Vdc.
 So there is plenty of headroom.
  
 It will also generate less heat using the lower secondary voltage.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

Thanks JJ. Do you think the Chassis connection on the -5V feed is required still?
  
 I will be doing the transplant in 2 weeks.


----------



## johnjen

Required, perhaps.
  
 But the original design did tie the chassis and digital signal grounds together on the SMPS board, which in turn is tied into that single point chassis ground in the far right hand rear corner where the top cover grounding wire is also connected.
  
 But, perhaps, and this is purely speculation on my part, the RN3 could live and operate just fine without the chassis tied into the negative 5Vdc connection at the output of the LPS.
  
 When next I dive into the RN3 I'll disconnect that connection to ground and see if the noise measurements change while operating.
 It might be less noisy, but then again perhaps not.
  
 An interesting experiment for sure.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> Required, perhaps.
> 
> But the original design did tie the chassis and digital signal grounds together on the SMPS board, which in turn is tied into that single point chassis ground in the far right hand rear corner where the top cover grounding wire is also connected.
> 
> ...


 

 I would be very interested in your findings JJ. I am not 100% sure, but think one cf the guys on here did not connect to ground.


----------



## johnjen

A status report on the SQ improvements due to the metallurgy mods to my system, along with the LPS mods, and the introduction of the Jggy, etc.
  
 Tonight I heard the flutist inhale between measures while playing Carmen on a recording from 1979.
 I never noticed that before.
  
 And the SQ still hasn't peaked yet (at 1424hrs), but it is slowly and steadily moving in that direction with new nuances and mid range (and up) definition 'peeking out from around the corner', so to speak.
 Like hearing the flutist breathe in between notes.
  
 And I'm really close to starting to dial in my mods to the 800's.
 The electronics and remaining spare parts should be showing up this week.
  
 I'm jazzed to be sure.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> I would be very interested in your findings JJ. I am not 100% sure, but think one cf the guys on here did not connect to ground.


 
 Yeah I vaguely remember seeing that as well.
 And I still have one more set of measurements to take on the RN3 so I'll add this to the list while fussing with the innerds.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I tore into my RN3 and added one minor mod to the lid, took some measurements and observed the LPS under a few different loads.
  
 I wanted to make that top cover grounding wire a quick disconnect (spade lug) connection, for easier access to the box.
 I figured it would make opening the box up, just a touch less fiddly…  
  

 pic of RN3 grnd wire mod
  
 Then I hooked up my scope and took some readings.
  
 I took the 1st readings with the RN3 running normally on the new LPS.
 Then I disconnected the LPS and then measured it again , then I added a small load (a 7.5KΩ resistor) and measured again.
  
 But next, I’ll list the previous readings to re-establish a base line to compare all of these readings to.
 And the direct comparison between the SMPS and the LPS readings, the 2 different sets of them, while operating the RN3, as in under normal load, will be where the rubber meets the road.
 At least in this one example, anyway.
  
 So here are the previous measurements of the RN3 being powered by the SMPS and the initial triple output LPS unit (the triple output unit).

 And the noise as measured on the +5vdc is much lower than what I measured while running the SMPS.
 Here are the measurements I made using the stock SMPS.
*Stock SMPS
 Pin #  Voltage    Average    Normal    Envelope*
*1*           +5        11 mv    91 mv    106 mv
*2*           +5        83 mv    91 mv    106 mv
*3*     0 (grnd)    101 mv    91 mv    106 mv
 Note these readings include 24µs spikes (≈42KHz).
  
 And here are the readings using this LPS with a rated noise of 2mv
  
*LPSx3
 Pin #  Voltage    Average    Normal    Envelope
 1&2*         +5          1 mv         6.5 mv        25 mv
*3*          0 (grnd)      3mv           16mv        27 mv (68mv with spikes)
 Note these ground measurements were made using the active circuit grounds (not just the chassis grounds as were used in the measurements made with the SMPS).
 Which means these measurements were made with the noise generating circuits included so these numbers are worst case instead of just the chassis ground voltages.
  
 It should be noted that the envelope does include the 15.9µs (≈63KHz spikes) where as the average and normal readings don’t.
 These spikes are generated by the active digital circuit itself and not by the power supply.

 So now I’m gunna list these latest measurements semi a$$backwards from the sequence I took them in, that way I’ll have the conclusion at the end with a build up to get there.
  
 So when I ran the LPS under no load conditions, which is the worst case to measure any PSU*, and then a very, very small load (the 7.5KΩ resistor), these reading could be considered as a base line (in situ) with the digital load only connected to the LPS by the ground connection.
 Then I’ll list the Normal Operating measurements.
  
_*Note SMPS’s often won’t even function under No Load conditions._
  
 The periods I could capture and measure were
 0.12µs = 8.3MHz
 1.0µs = 1MHz
 1.35µs = 740KHz
 And these frequencies were present under all of these measurement conditions.
  
*NO LOAD* Internal LPS
*+5Vdc supply Voltage with added noise as measured.*
    *Average         Normal                                               Envelope*
     1.0mv            3.0 to 6.3mv without/with spikes       5 to 14mv without/with spikes
  
*SMALL LOAD* Internal LPS
*LPS measurements made with a 7.5KΩ resistor*
*+5Vdc supply Voltage with added noise as measured.*
*Average                                           Normal                                         Envelope*
 2.6 to 4.3mv without/with spikes    2.6 to 4.3mv without/with spikes    6 to 11mv without/with spikes
  
*NORMAL (Digital) LOAD* Internal LPS
*LPS measurements made under normal operating conditions.*
*+5Vdc supply Voltage with added noise as measured.*
*Average                                          Normal         Envelope*
 1.9 to 3.9mv without/with spikes    14.5mv         14.8 to 19.5mv without/with spikes

 And now for the moment you’ve all been waiting for…
 A comparison of the noise between the SMPS and 2 different LPS units
 The results please.
  
*              Average          Normal         Envelope*
*SMPS*     83mv               91 mv           106 mv
*LPS x3*    1 mv               6.5 mv            25 mv    
*LPS int*   1.9 to 3.9mv   14.5mv          14.8 to 19.5mv   
  
 What this tells me is any LPS should significantly reduce the noise on the +5Vdc rails vs. using an SMPS.
 This is not really a surprise since this is well known.
 But that the reduction of the magnitude of the noise should make such a noticeable change and improvement in SQ, especially while powering a fully and strictly digital device is an eyebrow raiser to me for sure.
  
 And from a different perspective this is yet further confirmation of the benefits for a multi stage highly regulated power supply, especially for DAC’s and other gear that connects directly to analog gear.
 Which has been a trend in current DAC designs now for a while.

 Next up are the power utilization and ground noise measurements and comparison from this internal LPS vs the SMPS measurements.
  
 JJ
  
 ps oh and I measured the Telema transformer height .
 The transformer alone is ≈ 38mm
 The transformer with its mounting board is ≈ 42mm
 The transformer with its mounting board on the standoffs is ≈ 48mm


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Focusrite ought to get you on their payroll man, seriously if the next wave of products gets lps treatment.. good stuff JJ!


----------



## astrostar59

Great work JJ. It confirms what we thought, and it good to know for sure.
  
 Can I ask about the grounding scheme? Do you think I am best connecting the negative 5V feed to the base of the case as you did on your first fit. 
  

  
 My transformer should land on Monday I think. Cheers JJ.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks!
  
 And the next post will cover the reduction in the noise on ground, which is even more telling… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

astrostar59 said:


> Great work JJ. It confirms what we thought, and it good to know for sure.
> 
> Can I ask about the grounding scheme? Do you think I am best connecting the negative 5V feed to the base of the case as you did on your first fit.


 
  
 "Negative 5v feed"? Do you mean ground?
  
 Just want to be sure before I start this that all I need is +5 and gnd and that the board does not need +5v and -5v.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## astrostar59

mourip said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Great work JJ. It confirms what we thought, and it good to know for sure.
> ...


 

 I am not a tech, hence my question. I don't fully understand ground scheme and negative feed off the transformer. My question is due to my thinking, we are connecting the mains inlet earth to the chassis, and also -5V DC off the LPS board. I was wondering if that was correct, not incur noise or something from the mains wiring. My DAC kit I did 2 years back had an earth scheme but a cap and resistor on the wire.
  
 Sorry if all this appears like clueless questions guys, only checking in case I blow something up.


----------



## Golfnutz

mourip said:


> "Negative 5v feed"? Do you mean ground?
> 
> Just want to be sure before I start this that all I need is +5 and gnd and that the board does not need +5v and -5v.
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Are you planning on doing internal or external? If you're going external, with 2 wire DC connector, than -5v and common ground are the same thing (goes into the number 3 position on the JST connector. The '+' goes to either 1 or 2 or both 1 and 2 - depending how you want to internally wire the D16).


----------



## mourip

golfnutz said:


> Are you planning on doing internal or external? If you're going external, with 2 wire DC connector, than -5v and common ground are the same thing (goes into the number 3 position on the JST connector. The '+' goes to either 1 or 2 or both 1 and 2 - depending how you want to internally wire the D16).


 
  
 External LPS as I have a D16 which is just 1.75 high. Thanks!


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> I am not a tech, hence my question. I don't fully understand ground scheme and negative feed off the transformer. My question is due to my thinking, we are connecting the mains inlet earth to the chassis, and also -5V DC off the LPS board. I was wondering if that was correct, not incur noise or something from the mains wiring. My DAC kit I did 2 years back had an earth scheme but a cap and resistor on the wire.
> 
> Sorry if all this appears like clueless questions guys, only checking in case I blow something up.


 

 I think I remember the guy who did mine say the -5v was connected to earth ground (chassis) at the SMPS, which is why he also terminated it to earth ground in the external LPS I'm using.
  
 My LPS started with 2 wires, but he changed it to 3 wires. '+', '-' (now has 2 wires - 1 going to earth ground/chassis), and earth ground/chassis itself.
  
 This was done for safety reasons, and elimination of stray noise.
  
 1 '-' to earth ground/chassis screw (first green wire)
 2 '-' to connector (second green wire)
 3 '+' to connector (red wire)
 4 'G' to connector from earth ground/chassis screw (3 wires attached to ground screw, 1, 4, and wire from IEC connector powering LPS). See bottom left corner where the 3 ground wires are connected in photo on the right

  
  
  
 I think this is pretty much the net result of what JJ has done. If not, I hope he corrects me or adds additional info.


----------



## Golfnutz

mourip said:


> External LPS as I have a D16 which is just 1.75 high. Thanks!


 

 No problem. I will be curious to find out if you experience any noise or hum since you'll be using DC cable without earth ground.


----------



## johnjen

mourip said:


> "Negative 5v feed"? Do you mean ground?
> 
> Just want to be sure before I start this that all I need is +5 and gnd and that the board does not need +5v and -5v.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 These LPS's create voltages that are 'floating', until they are tied to ground.
 Thus the -5Vdc connection becomes ground when connected to ground, in this case the chassis itself.
  
 IOW the + and the - 5Vdc connections (2 wires) are independent of the ground connection, until one (the -5Vdc) is directly grounded, think of a car battery with it's + and - terminals.
 This voltage isn't grounded until connected to the cars ground (chassis).
  
 This is not a center tapped voltage source, (3 wires) as in ±5Vdc with a center tapped ground, which would create a voltage potential of 10Vdc between the 2) 5Vdc connections (+5 and -5Vdc) with the center tap being 0Vdc.
 Much like the ±15Vdc feed that the SMPS and my original triple LPS provides.
  
 These LPS's deliver 5Vdc between the 2 connections with the polarity being marked so you don't wire it 'backwards' (like putting the battery in backwards which lets all the magic smoke out).
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

And now for some power and ground noise readings from my RN3 with the internal LPS.
  
 So I measured the RN3 power draw at 0.13Amps at 120Vac which is 15.6Watts.
 The current draw into the RN3 from the LPS, as noted previously is 0.9Amp which is 4.5Watts.
  
 This yields a 29% efficiency with ≈11Watts dissipated as heat.
  
 So then next I measured the noise on the ground plane under a variety of conditions including,
 not connected to the ac mains,
 then connected but not powered on,
 then powered on,
 then I lifted the ‘ground’ side of the LPS output to the RN3 mainboard while not powered up,
 and then measured again while powered up.
  
*LPS Int, *Noise on the ground plane measurements.
*                  Not Grounded    Grounded-OFF    Powered ON    Grnd Lift-OFF    Grnd Lift-ON*
*Normal*             1.5mV                 3.4mV                 3.4mV                8.3mV                11.3mV
*Average*         0.29mV               0.58mV                0.89mV           1.6 to 3.8mV             4.5mV
*Envelope*         7.2mV               13.1mV            7.5 to 16.5mV         22.8mV                29.9mV
  
 From these readings you can see where being unplugged vs just being plugged in (but not turned ON) is the lowest set of readings.
 And being plugged in, while being either ON or OFF, doesn’t substantially change much in terms of these readings.
  
 And that lifting the (chassis) ground connection at the output of the LPS (while being plugged into the ac mains) raises the noise on the ground floor while being ON or OFF.
 Which in turn means it’s ‘best’ if the mainboard ground is actually grounded along with the -5Vdc output of the LPS.
  
 So when we compare these noise readings while operating, to the stock SMPS and the LPSx3 we get a sense of the overall reduction in noise on ground alone that a LPS can make.
  
*LPS Int* Noise on the ground plane (chassis) while ON.
        *        Average        Normal        Envelope*
*SMPS*     101 mv           91 mv                 106 mv
*LPS x3*       3 mv           16 mv          27 to 68 mv    
*LPS Int*      3 mv        14.5 mv      7.5 to 16.5 mv   
  
 You can see where the 2) LPS units significantly reduce the amount of noise and in this case by a factor of 6 to 33 times less.
  
 So I’d say this is a significant reduction in noise and may well be the single most important causative factor in the SQ improvement I hear.
  
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

golfnutz said:


> I think I remember the guy who did mine say the -5v was connected to earth ground (chassis) at the SMPS, which is why he also terminated it to earth ground in the external LPS I'm using.
> 
> My LPS started with 2 wires, but he changed it to 3 wires. '+', '-' (now has 2 wires - 1 going to earth ground/chassis), and earth ground/chassis itself.
> 
> ...


 
 Essentially what he did by using 3 wires (+5Vdc, -5Vdc and ground) from the external LPS is, he made the ground connection between the LPS and the RN3 separate from the 2 voltage rails, sort of.
 Because the ground and -5Vdc are both tied together at each end.
  
 This is somewhat similar to having neutral and ground tied together in our circuit breaker panel, where one wire is meant to carry current (the neutral) while the other is used as a ground reference (ground), even though they are connected together.
  
 And yeah I essentially did the same thing when I connected the -5Vdc output from the regulator board to chassis ground along with the mainboards primary ground connection.
  
 With the primary difference being, the cable between the LPS and the mainboard being simpler (only 2 wires) and shorter.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> And now for some power and ground noise readings from my RN3 with the internal LPS.


 
 Wow, great work JJ. This thread is really rocking!
  
 I can understand the impact now as the noise reduction factor is pretty high. And we all know how digital circuits (in audio) don't like noise. In my Mac Mini pre Uptone Audio mod, it was an annoying glaze and if exaggerated, a razor tooth on/off character to female vocals (for example). That was hugely reduced after the mod, and again reduced further after dropping USB and getting the Rednet 3, the music becoming smoother and more 'liquid' wider soundstage etc.
  
 I will use the grounding strategy as you have. Can't wait to do it now, parts incoming this week.
  
 Thanks JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Wow, great work JJ. This thread is really rocking!
> 
> I can understand the impact now as the noise reduction factor is pretty high. And we all know how digital circuits (in audio) don't like noise. In my Mac Mini pre Uptone Audio mod, it was an annoying glaze and if exaggerated, a razor tooth on/off character to female vocals (for example). That was hugely reduced after the mod, and again reduced further after dropping USB and getting the Rednet 3, the music becoming smoother and more 'liquid' wider soundstage etc.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks!
  
 Yeah this stuff is sorta fascinating.
  
 But what gets me is that, supposedly, digital circuits should be even more immune from all this noise on ground than analog circuits.
  
 Except this isn't what we're hearing, and granted it may be due to the reduction in the amount of noise that does propagate thru the common ground connection between all of our gear.
 But I figure that is only a part of what is happening, only I really don't know what could account for these audible changes strictly from a digital circuit design standpoint.
  
 Still, it's fun to fuss with and explore all of these what-ifs, just to see what happens as a result.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

JJ, in a previous DAC kit build I did, the grounding scheme on that was quite unusual. Chassis ground was connected to mains ground, but the line board was grounded via an earth wire with a resistor and small cap. See pic below. Is there any mileage in this idea on the Rednet? Might be totally a different case, not relevant here, but I thought I'd share it.


----------



## johnjen

There might be some advantage to that, but it will depend upon the 'live' circuit and how it was designed.
  
 By that I mean how well can its ground be partially de-coupled from the ac power ground and still function 'properly'.
 Or not.
  
 And really the only way to know is to try it and then find out what happens.
  
 I could see where this _*might*_ help reduce the noise on the mainboards ground plane from propagating outwards.
 But then again it might be a source of added interference for the digital circuits themselves, thus leading to poorer performance overall.
  
 And dialing in the values of the resistor and cap might take some fussing as well.
  
 Still it might be worthwhile, at least to try anyway.
  
 Who knows it may actually help lower the noise floor, which can always help.
  
 JJ


----------



## Clemmaster

Aren't the Rednets earthed because of the potential lethal voltages it operates at (phantom bias at 48V)?

Running at 5V only could alleviate the need to running earth to the wall socket?


----------



## Superdad

Hi Gents:
  
 Quick question for those who had modded their RN3 or D16.  From skimming this thread I got the impression that your Focusrite units just need a bipolar 5 volts (that is + and - 5V)--is that correct?  Have any of you measured that 5V DC current draw?  Is it less than about 1.1A on each polarity?
  
 If the current draw is modest--which I expect it is--then I might consider offering a DIY wiring kit for folks to use with a pair of our isolated UltraCap LPS-1 supplies.  It is easy to wire them in series and center-tap to create a proper bi-polar supply.
  
 I'm not trying to plug anything here, just looking for some facts about the PS requirements of the Focusrite units.
  
 Thanks and regards,
  
 --Alex C.


----------



## mourip

superdad said:


> Hi Gents:
> 
> Quick question for those who had modded their RN3 or D16.  From skimming this thread I got the impression that your Focusrite units just need a bipolar 5 volts (that is + and - 5V)--is that correct?  Have any of you measured that 5V DC current draw?  Is it less than about 1.1A on each polarity?
> 
> ...


 
 I have not made the mod yet but just got the parts for connecting my external LPS which has a simple +5v output.
  
 My understanding is that the RN3(D16) board just needs +5v and gnd connections to the multi-pin board connector. I do not believe that a bipolar +5/-5v supply is required even though I keep reading about -5v which is a bit confusing to me. 
  
 The supplies I see images of here all look like simple single voltage supplies with some folks advocating grounding the chassis with the (-) leg which I believe is basically a safety technique.


----------



## Superdad

mourip said:


> I have not made the mod yet but just got the parts for connecting my external LPS which has a simple +5v output.
> 
> My understanding is that the RN3(D16) board just needs +5v and gnd connections to the multi-pin board connector. I do not believe that a bipolar +5/-5v supply is required even though I keep reading about -5v which is a bit confusing to me.
> 
> The supplies I see images of here all look like simple single voltage supplies with some folks advocating grounding the chassis with the (-) leg which I believe is basically a safety technique.


 
  
  
 Thanks for the quick reply.  Well that certainly makes it easier.  Really, as an all-digital device (i.e. no analog stages), I was surprised by the posts that made it seem like it needs a bi-polar supply.  Folks need to be careful not to bandy about the term -5VDC unless they really mean it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Now we just need to get an ammeter in line with the +5VDC to see how much current the unit actually draws.


----------



## mourip

superdad said:


> Thanks for the quick reply.  Well that certainly makes it easier.  Really, as an all-digital device (i.e. no analog stages), I was surprised by the posts that made it seem like it needs a bi-polar supply.  Folks need to be careful not to bandy about the term -5VDC unless they really mean it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a Kill-a-Watt. If I measure the wattage and the line voltage can we extrapolate roughly for the single voltage supply?


----------



## Superdad

mourip said:


> I have a Kill-a-Watt. If I measure the wattage and the line voltage can we extrapolate roughly for the single voltage supply?


 

 Not really.  Especially if the supply being used is an SMPS.  And if a linear, then I'd still need to know the raw voltage going into the regulators to include/exclude the drop.
  
 Really best to just put a meter in line with the +5V and measure the current directly.


----------



## Clemmaster

It's been measured few months ago already.
The lps-1 is sufficient.


----------



## johnjen

clemmaster said:


> Aren't the Rednets earthed because of the potential lethal voltages it operates at (phantom bias at 48V)?
> 
> Running at 5V only could alleviate the need to running earth to the wall socket?


 
 Um, Rednet boxes are earthed because of code and UL etc rating requirements, not because of the 51Vdc the SMPS generates (with very low current), and the 2 we use (D16 and RN3) don't actually use this voltage, at all.
  
 As for the polarity confusion, let me try and make it simple.
 These LPS's I have used and described, are like a car battery.
 They have a + connection and a - connection, with 12Vdc (5Vdc for our LPS's) between these 2 connection points.
  
 And you don't want to connect batteries (nor LPS's) backwards, because that lets all the magic smoke out of the unit and turns it into a  'brick'.
  
 Does this help?
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

superdad said:


> Hi Gents:
> 
> Quick question for those who had modded their RN3 or D16.  From skimming this thread I got the impression that your Focusrite units just need a bipolar 5 volts (that is + and - 5V)--is that correct?  Have any of you measured that 5V DC current draw?  Is it less than about 1.1A on each polarity?
> 
> ...


 
 Say there.
 I measured my RN3 and posted the results previously in this thread.
  
 My RN3 draws 0.9Amps at 5Vdc when operating just a stereo pair of channels.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> Um, Rednet boxes are earthed because of code and UL etc rating requirements, not because of the 51Vdc the SMPS generates (with very low current), and the 2 we use (D16 and RN3) don't actually use this voltage, at all.
> 
> As for the polarity confusion, let me try and make it simple.
> These LPS's I have used and described, are like a car battery.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for confirming that the RN3 uses a simple +5v supply. This makes it very easy for those of us who want to use an external LPS.
  
 I think that someone previously confirmed that the Focusrite SMPS was somewhat generic and is probably also used in other REDnet products that require the standard 48v phantom microphone power source which as you mention is not being used in our RN3 or D16 devices.
  
 Keep up the good work and going boldly....


----------



## mourip

superdad said:


> Not really.  Especially if the supply being used is an SMPS.  And if a linear, then I'd still need to know the raw voltage going into the regulators to include/exclude the drop.
> 
> Really best to just put a meter in line with the +5V and measure the current directly.


 


johnjen said:


> My RN3 draws 0.9Amps at 5Vdc when operating just a stereo pair of channels.


 
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Superdad

johnjen said:


> Say there.
> I measured my RN3 and posted the results previously in this thread.
> 
> My RN3 draws 0.9Amps at 5Vdc when operating just a stereo pair of channels.
> ...


 

 Excellent.  Thank you!  Now maybe I can look at offering a kit so that novices can mod their units to use an external supply (ideally our UltraCap LPS-1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Clemmaster

It'd be great to build a dummy IEC panel connector with a DC jack in it (instead of the 3 pongs).
 I've been looking for such an adapter, to make things simpler and prevent chassis work to install the DC jack.


----------



## Golfnutz

clemmaster said:


> It'd be great to build a dummy IEC panel connector with a DC jack in it (instead of the 3 pongs).
> I've been looking for such an adapter, to make things simpler and prevent chassis work to install the DC jack.


 

 You don't have to use 3-prong, you can switch it out with 2-prong (c18/c19). Just cut the C19 power cord and put the appropriate end that would connect to your LPS.


----------



## Clemmaster

golfnutz said:


> You don't have to use 3-prong, you can switch it out with 2-prong (c18/c19). Just cut the C19 power cord and put the appropriate end that would connect to your LPS.


 
  
 There's still the potential for plugging in an AC cord and fry the board.
 The DC barrel jack in IEC socket prevents that. It doesn't prevent the use of the wrong PSU voltage, though.


----------



## mourip

clemmaster said:


> There's still the potential for plugging in an AC cord and fry the board.
> The DC barrel jack in IEC socket prevents that. It doesn't prevent the use of the wrong PSU voltage, though.


 
  
 I agree. Not so safe.
  
 Why not remove the 2/3 pins and drill out an opening for the chassis mount DC connector? Or just use a small piece of plastic or aluminum to fit in the IEC opening? Two holes for the bolts and one for the DC connector.


----------



## Clemmaster

mourip said:


> I agree. Not so safe.
> 
> Why not remove the 2/3 pins and drill out an opening for the chassis mount DC connector? Or just use a small piece of plastic or aluminum to fit in the IEC opening? Two holes for the bolts and one for the DC connector.



Because I'm lazy 

I think I will have to resort to that, yes.


----------



## Golfnutz

clemmaster said:


> There's still the potential for plugging in an AC cord and fry the board.
> The DC barrel jack in IEC socket prevents that. It doesn't prevent the use of the wrong PSU voltage, though.


 

 Yep, exactly what I said to the guy who helped me. Either way, nothing's 100% fool proof.
  
 He still wanted to add earth ground even if we went the DC cable route, so that was another reason I went the route I did.
  
 I think everyone will have their own personal opinion what they want to do, there really is no right/wrong way to do it. Heck, you could even just remove the IEC and run a cable through that hole (who would know).
  
 I was even thinking at one point to remove the prongs and drill a hole through the cover and plug with one of these (DC jack mounted to cover).


----------



## astrostar59

Rednet 3 Linear Power Supply Install
  
 Hi guys. Following on from JJ, Musiqboy here is my effort following the same parts count.
  
 Initially I had the whole parts delivery but they sent me the 7V 12.5VA transformer instead of the 9V 12.5VA. I had no idea of that matters, but regardless I asked the sender to correct the order, and he then sent me the 9V unit. Unfortunately it would cost me almost the same (25 euros) as a new transformer to ship the 7V back to China via Registered Spanish mail, so I still have it here but not used.
  

  
 First I fitted a new IEC block as I needed a way too add a fuse. As you can see I had to cut the aperture deeper and 2 new holes. It fits more or less ok visually, but is rock solid tight in the housing. I used a 2 amp slow blow, and the block has a noise rejection element as the Rednet block does. 
  

  
 The 9V transformer wired up and in place. All the mains wire were run down the right side edge. I am on 230V so I did the X-OX-O connection to the input side. I wired the positive on top, and the negative underneath the board as JJ did. I used a small length of wire to the bridge to pair the pads as my wire was not so thick to split into a Y section. I used some wire that came with my HDPlex's spare connectors so should be ok.
  

  
 Here is the LPS fitted As you can see I chickened out on the 2 5V+ leads and used the harness, even though I bought new crimping pliers. It was too fiddly and after six goes and making the plugs I gave up. So I split the harness down to 3 wires and used that instead. I fitted a brass clip for the earth mount which I solder connected.
  

  
 Here is the whole thing installed.You can place the LPS in a nice big space away from the Digital circuits. Minor point, the screw top right on the LPS PCB is close to the heatsink, so in that case I used one of the smaller screws from the SMPS for that, otherwise the screw could contact the heatsink and earth it out. Not sure if that matters, but did it anyway.
  
 I used the switch mains wires I didn't need to mess with the switch.
  
 Before I plugged in the harness power feed, I switch the Rednet on, and the mains transformer output read 10.3 V AC, not 9V AC. Hope that is not an issue? I have paired up the X's and O's on the output, but could defeat them to be a single pair if that would reduce the voltage a bit? 
  
 I then measured the LPS and it read bang on 4.96V DC, nice!
  
 I have been running it for 2 hours and everything seems fine so far. I can feel a slight warm area on the Rednet top case above where the LPS heatsinks are. Not hot or anything, so should be fine.
  
 I will review the sound in a few days after it has burnt in, but I can immediatly hear the treble is cleaner and micro detail is more obvious. The bass is a bit tighter and I think the general sound more layered / 3D. It is similar to the sound upgrade I observed with the Mac Mini LPS mod I did las year. Quite possibly it will improve more in a week or so after the LPS caps burn in.
  
 So very happy, and many thanks to JJ for starting this thread and doing the leg work, and Golfnutz and Musiqboy for the PMs and extra information.


----------



## mourip

astrostar59 said:


> Rednet 3 Linear Power Supply Install
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 AFAIK the only downside to a slightly higher AC from the transformer is a bit more heat for the regulator to dissipate for the voltage drop to 5vdc.
  
 Nice clean job BTW.


----------



## Golfnutz

Congrats Astro. The changes you're describing sound like the same thing I experienced.
  
 This made me laugh a bit - which is why I suggested you purchase additional JST XH headers and pins. It's probably the tool you were using which caused you issues. With the one I have, it works very well.
  
 "*As you can see I chickened out on the 2 5V+ leads and used the harness, even though I bought new crimping pliers. It was too fiddly and after six goes and making the plugs I gave up. So I split the harness down to 3 wires and used that instead*".


----------



## astrostar59

golfnutz said:


> Congrats Astro. The changes you're describing sound like the same thing I experienced.
> 
> This made me laugh a bit - which is why I suggested you purchase additional JST XH headers and pins. It's probably the tool you were using which caused you issues. With the one I have, it works very well.
> 
> "*As you can see I chickened out on the 2 5V+ leads and used the harness, even though I bought new crimping pliers. It was too fiddly and after six goes and making the plugs I gave up. So I split the harness down to 3 wires and used that instead*".


 

 Thanks Golfnutz. I think you fast forward to full monte sound quality as you used your already run in LPS. So far so good, very pleased. I think I am close to stopping upgrades on my system now, partly as I spent so much over the last 3 years, and also I am super happy with how it sounds. I was scanning around for another R-2R DAC with a more modern build like the Lampi GG or Aqua Formula, but my old school Audio Note DAC 5 (insanely expensive when new) sounds so good, I think I will stay as is. I bought it used last year and it is in good condition.


----------



## Muziqboy

astrostar59 said:


> So very happy, and many thanks to JJ for starting this thread and doing the leg work, and Golfnutz and Musiqboy for the PMs and extra information.


 
  
 Congrats on the successful install. Glad I could be of help.
 I'm sure you will enjoy listening to your system more as the lps gets burned-in.
  
 In addition to the lps mod on my RN3, I acquired 3 MeiYAN LPS to power up the Live Clock and Mutec's in my digital stack and after running all my digital gear on LPS'S for about 2 weeks now, the LPS's have burned-in and settled quite nicely and the whole rig has developed an unbelievable crushing dynamics and tremendous air and space around the instruments. Vocals have an even more scary sense of Realism that I have not heard before. Lots of micro-details being revealed that I could barely hear before. The bass even plays about an octave lower without breaking apart and no distortion at all. I would say that all the remaining veil that I did not know was there have now all been wiped clean.
  
 I highly recommend the lps mod and many thanks again to JJ for taking the lead and doing all the homework.


----------



## Golfnutz

clemmaster said:


> Because I'm lazy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I don't want you guys to think I'm pushing this, just wanted to give another alternative. Probably should have gone this way myself, it seems to be the safer option.
  
 Could use 2 or 3 wires from the power cord. Just cut the female end from the power cord and add the DC barrel plug (or 3-pin aviator connector, or XLR connector).
  
 I searched for days trying to find a DC plug adapter or something suitable and didn't come up with anything off the shelf that would fit in place of an IEC connection hole.


----------



## Clemmaster

That was the other option, indeed.


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Rednet 3 Linear Power Supply Install
> 
> snip
> So very happy, and many thanks to JJ for starting this thread and doing the leg work, and Golfnutz and Musiqboy for the PMs and extra information.


 
 I'm glad we all were able to provide enough useful info to give you the confidence for you to take the plunge.
  
 And as far as I can tell, all of this fussing is worth all of the effort expended.
  
 It still makes me go hmmmm, that these mods are so effective, especially since we are dealing with cleaning up digital devices which should be immune from this sort of deterioration of the musical signal in the first place.
  
 JJ  :thumb


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Rednet 3 Linear Power Supply Install
> ...


 

 Thanks JJ. The sound is still improving, particularly the bass extension today. I would characterise the sound with and without the LPS mod is this:
  


*Before the LPS mod*
  


*After the LPS mod*
  
 ​It is hard to describe the effect, so this is my way of understanding it. The music is essentially cleaner, wider, closer to the source, less glaze or hash, deeper colours and more liquid but not in anyway soft, in fact stronger impact and leading edges. More texture and less grain, which is a very good thing to have. The corny adjectives of 'hearing things I never heard before' is true. These details were there before but partially obscured and not separated from the core. Now the music is more 3D and layered, and because of that you can hear more musical clues even as things get very complex. And to me it hands the DAC a clean sheet to work with, instead of trying to fix things in the digital conversion AFTER they have already gained noise and other artefacts. 
  
 I had added LPS's to other parts of my system before, and a PS Audio P10 power regenerator powering the whole system, so I was aware of the 'garbage in - garbage out' of power supplies and theory. The thing with the Rednet mod is it is as 'cheap as chips' in high end hifi terms, and has a major impact on the sound, which in this hobby is quite rare indeed.
  
 IMO the problems of USB are also noise and possibly the fact it was not designed specifically for audio, even though manufactures fit better and better USB boards, the issues still don't seem to go away. Ethernet over 1000 baseT sounds better to me, with very low latency. A weakness to the Rednet system for some might be it's 192K sample rate limit and non DSD. For me, that is not an issue, but the current obsession of HQPlayer and DSD conversion for some means they have to stay with USB. Also the Rednet box is not small or particularly easy to set up, but IMO is well worth the effort.
  
 After experiencing the effects of a clean power source in a music system, it seems quite odd I never considered it before. I guess I trusted the mains supply as 100% perfect, not considered the huge effect it would have on the final sound. Trying to clean up that supply is now a big deal IMO.
  
 So my view is flush out the whole system for noise and weak points, it will pay dividends in the long run.
  
 Hope someone finds this useful.


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Thanks JJ. The sound is still improving, particularly the bass extension today. I would characterise the sound with and without the LPS mod is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Trying to adequately describe and explain what we hear, with words, has always been difficult.
 Especially for those who haven't experienced the 'After', these words can ring hollow, or in some cases fully qualifying as eyebrow raisers and even eliciting autonomic scoffs.
  
 I have been pursuing the effects that the mains supply and especially it's distribution in our homes can have for some time now and removing those pesky *CP's* (Choke Points) has revealed to me the individual effects each of them has, but even more significant is the sum total of their cumulative effects, and their effects thru time.
  
 And this latest bit of fussing in removing the SMPS's from our systems is revealing yet further validation and in new directions as well.
 And I think that all who have experienced these shifts can relate as the SQ takes on qualities never before even imagined, let alone described.
  
 And to that end I have come up with another new re-tasked descriptor for these changes we are hearing.
 I call it *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) where each voice and ALL of its related effects (harmonics, room reflections and the like) are brought into much better focus, and to the degree that we can more easily immediately identify each bit of acoustic power and KNOW what it is.
 Another way of describing LEDI and it's acoustic effect is when any 'voice' (technology or organic based) and ALL of its related harmonics, room reflections, and the like, starts when its supposed to and is not 'smeared' thru time, the results are most compelling.
  
 It becomes very obvious, and we hear, all the more, into the music.
  
 And I too used to think that since our systems use such small amounts of power and being so simple, with an amp & dac (no preamp or huge power amp) that none of this fussing with the power distribution would or should make ANY difference.
 Until I experienced an undeniable SQ shift for the better, and then the flood gates opened and I've been on this roller coaster ever since.
 Indeed this thread can be viewed as a chronicle of all this fussing and the cumulative results therefrom.
  
 This, according to the 'standard way of thinking' makes no sense, and until experienced for oneself, is all to easy to refute and in a variety of ways, all of which follow the 'standard way of thinking'.
  
 I mean just increasing the wire gauge of the power cables alone helps.
 ASSUMING the rest of the system is 'up to snuff' so to speak, which I have written about previously.
  
 And the fewer the number of *CP's* that remain, the MOAR the SQ change of reducing/eliminating those *CP's* that do remain, seems to make.
  
 IOW as more and more of the system gets out of it's own way, the greater the perceived SQ increases are, after the reduction/removal of any remaining *CP*.
  
 And lowering the noise floor of our systems, by not generating (as much) spurious, random, 'digital' noise in the first place seems to be a significant step up.
  
 Just a few thoughts to mull over.
  
 JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

golfnutz said:


> I don't want you guys to think I'm pushing this, just wanted to give another alternative. Probably should have gone this way myself, it seems to be the safer option.
> 
> Could use 2 or 3 wires from the power cord. Just cut the female end from the power cord and add the DC barrel plug (or 3-pin aviator connector, or XLR connector).
> 
> I searched for days trying to find a DC plug adapter or something suitable and didn't come up with anything off the shelf that would fit in place of an IEC connection hole.


 

 This might be a better choice (no soldering needed). So if you had HDPlex, you could use standard xlr cable and cut one end and attach this to the end.


----------



## somestranger26

johnjen said:


> The female XLR-3pin connector has a push to release 'button' that gets in the way of removing the board from the chassis.
> This means actually being able to remove the SMPS daughterboard is not gunna happen until the button is removed (I couldn't figure out how) or it is bent out of the way (which means the end of the button breaks off, which is what happened to me).
> This isn't a big deal for me but for some it would be 'better' to leave the SMPS in place and solder the LPS voltage wires to the header pins directly.


 
 Did you figure out how to get the latch off the XLR connector? The post someone linked later in the thread mentioned a SIM card removal tool with an unspecified modification. I tried some small flat metal objects in the top hole and wasn't able to get it to come off.
  
 I am thinking about buying one of these LPSes with dual outputs http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-mirror-style-S130-Ultra-Low-Noise-Linear-Power-supply-2-way-LPS-DC-5V-24V-/132021195239?hash=item1ebd1391e7:g:59AAAOSwuzRXeg55. I could use one +5V and another +6.3V to power both my RN3 and MC-3+USB. I am thinking about just running the wires directly so I don't have to hassle with getting connectors and fitting them to the chassis.
  
 There was talk about wiring the earth ground from the LPSes to the devices they're powering, but you're just using a floating ground right?


----------



## johnjen

somestranger26 said:


> Did you figure out how to get the latch off the XLR connector? The post someone linked later in the thread mentioned a SIM card removal tool with an unspecified modification. I tried some small flat metal objects in the top hole and wasn't able to get it to come off.
> 
> I am thinking about buying one of these LPSes with dual outputs http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-mirror-style-S130-Ultra-Low-Noise-Linear-Power-supply-2-way-LPS-DC-5V-24V-/132021195239?hash=item1ebd1391e7:g:59AAAOSwuzRXeg55. I could use one +5V and another +6.3V to power both my RN3 and MC-3+USB. I am thinking about just running the wires directly so I don't have to hassle with getting connectors and fitting them to the chassis.
> 
> There was talk about wiring the earth ground from the LPSes to the devices they're powering, but you're just using a floating ground right?


 
 I fabricated a 'tool' to insert into the connector body and was able to remove the 'push' button on a 'spare' connector.
 But I wasn't able to extract the 'broken' one using the same tool in the 3+, so I left it.

  
 It looks like that is a true dual output LPS so it should work for you.
  
 No, I have stayed with grounding the minus side of the LPS to the chassis ground, due to the lower noise I measured and listed in my previous post.
 Which in turn means my chassis is connected to the ground connection from the ac mains.
 So no, my setup isn't floating.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

somestranger26 said:


> Did you figure out how to get the latch off the XLR connector? The post someone linked later in the thread mentioned a SIM card removal tool with an unspecified modification. I tried some small flat metal objects in the top hole and wasn't able to get it to come off.
> 
> I am thinking about buying one of these LPSes with dual outputs http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-mirror-style-S130-Ultra-Low-Noise-Linear-Power-supply-2-way-LPS-DC-5V-24V-/132021195239?hash=item1ebd1391e7:g:59AAAOSwuzRXeg55. I could use one +5V and another +6.3V to power both my RN3 and MC-3+USB. I am thinking about just running the wires directly so I don't have to hassle with getting connectors and fitting them to the chassis.
> 
> There was talk about wiring the earth ground from the LPSes to the devices they're powering, but you're just using a floating ground right?


 
  
 I have that same lps both configured for 5vdc to run the 2 Mutec non-usb in my chain. You can message the seller if you want a different color display and power button led. I think the default is green. I picked blue to match the other 2 Meiyan lps that I got. I wired the RN3 the same as JJ did with the negative output of the regulator board connected to earth ground. The Mutecs are powered up with floating ground.


----------



## astrostar59

*On the effect of the LPS mod to the Rednet*
 I had been primarily using my horn speakers and could hear the positive effects to the sound, particularly the soundstage width and layering.
  


  
 Some intense listening last night on my Stax 009s and Carbon amplifier and it is apparent another aspect is TEXTURE. I think as the last part of digital glaze has been eradicated, probably as the SMPS was so close to the super sensitive digital circuits, it is now very easy to hear texture changes in the music. Before there was a hint of particles or grain to everything. Now that has been removed, parts of the music that have smooth transitions in timbre become very clear, a feature pretty much lost before. Like a super sharp lens looking across a lake, the ripples and graduation are there to see (hear) and they are perfect graduations, not stepped as you often see in dodgy printed leaflets for example.
  
 It might sound left of centre my description, but this small effect has huge implications to the sound. It seems to have taken elements that were glued together and separated them out and gives you the ability to hear then in isolation, even as they all play at the same time. The other fantastic aspect of all this is the treble ranges are cleaner and more liquid but not hard or brittle, just really clean. At first you think, were are the edges, the detail? But it actually contains more detail than before, as those edges before were a false friend. They were infact intermodulation distortion at the edges of the notes, a false detail.
  
 The overall signature in my setting has also gained some body and flesh to the midrange, and a touch of warm overall which is welcome, especially in digital.
  
 In my Audio Note DAC 5 I changed the caps on the line stage in January for Duelund Copper cast which predictably was a big change in signature. I have done that on other DACs and tube amplifiers before, so it was expected. But the LPS mod to the Rednet is as big a change, possibly bigger. It sounds like a new front end TBH. Everything I love about my DAC has been focussed on and improved.
  
 This is a key ingredient IMO to getting a balanced system, and as a free ticket (130USD) to a big gain in sound quality. I would say to get this jump for example, you could easily spend another 10K on top of your exiting DAC. It also tells me anyone running a decent hifi system who doesn't utilise these golden nuggets is missing out.
  
 Many folk IMO are unaware of the importance of power supplies in the entire chain. And that includes starting at the mains supply and working forward to the last component in the chain.
 Hifi products are built to a budget, and the oversampling numbers and format wars sell DACs. But it is pitiful how many 'high end' DACs have cheap opp amps and weak power supplies to support their 'high end' digital interfaces. The Rednet is reasonably priced, and is primarily an audio network device for a DAW. I can understand why they fitted a nasty SMPS for cheapness, and WW voltage compliance, and seeing the SPDIF output as a monitoring feature in a studio, not mission critical to networking the audio. If someone produced a Dante box for home audio, it should include a LPS supply as a matter or course.
  
 I have flagged up the Rednet on whatsbestforum.com, but folk over there are more or less closed to the idea, seeing it as an SPDIF convertor and nothing else. Short sighted IMO. The fact many modern DACs sell on the numbers game (sample rate) means they have to use USB, and then we are back to where we started (noise).


----------



## Tand2016

Has anyone tried the Uptone Ultracap LPS-1 to their LPS converted 3/16 yet? Should work with 5 volt and 1,1 amp max I think. 

Tommy


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> *On the effect of the LPS mod to the Rednet*
> snip Some intense listening last night on my Stax 009s and Carbon amplifier and it is apparent another aspect is TEXTURE. I think as the last part of digital glaze has been eradicated, probably as the SMPS was so close to the super sensitive digital circuits, it is now very easy to hear texture changes in the music. Before there was a hint of particles or grain to everything. Now that has been removed, parts of the music that have smooth transitions in timbre become very clear, a feature pretty much lost before. Like a super sharp lens looking across a lake, the ripples and graduation are there to see (hear) and they are perfect graduations, not stepped as you often see in dodgy printed leaflets for example.
> 
> It might sound left of centre my description, but this small effect has huge implications to the sound. It seems to have taken elements that were glued together and separated them out and gives you the ability to hear then in isolation, even as they all play at the same time. The other fantastic aspect of all this is the treble ranges are cleaner and more liquid but not hard or brittle, just really clean. At first you think, were are the edges, the detail? But it actually contains more detail than before, as those edges before were a false friend. They were infact intermodulation distortion at the edges of the notes, a false detail.
> ...


 
 Excellent…!
  
 Nice report full of insights which are based upon the results of much fussing and experimentation.
 And as I see it, your results are the fruits of hard earned, long term diving down the rabbit hole and NOT getting lost along the way.
  
 And I too noticed the seeming lack of appreciation that this fairly inexpensive mod, can in fact, make.
  
 To us, those sufficiently motivated enough to actually drill holes and solder wires etc, it is simply revelatory.
 But there are plenty of others don't seem to be anywhere near as enthused.
 Perhaps it’s the skill sets and experience (or lack there of) at performing these sorts of mods.
 But then there are some who have performed this mod and weren't all that impressed as well.
  
 Curious isn't it?
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

tand2016 said:


> Has anyone tried the Uptone Ultracap LPS-1 to their LPS converted 3/16 yet? Should work with 5 volt and 1,1 amp max I think.
> 
> Tommy


 
 Not I.
 But perhaps others who post in this little back alley have tried it and will comment.
  
 And those UltraCaps while nice and all are still quite expensive, and from what I understand the charger is running all the time (or nearly so) anyway.
  
 Which means the PSU is charging a bank of batteries and is contributing it's noise to the ground plane all the while running on the other bank of UltraCaps.
  
 Which in my mind kinda muddies the whole intent of running on this (or any) form of a battery bank, which is, they're primary advantage is supposed to be, that they are free of any such PSU noise sources.
  
 But having not heard one, I can't really say if they truly are a 'better' source of power, SQ wise, or not.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

System status report.
  
 I have been patently waiting for the SQ to peak and it has danced around and peeked at me from around the corner and is slowly meandering towards what it is capable of,
 but,
 it still hasn't reached the peak SQ and the metallurgical count up timer is now at 1780hrs thus far.
  
 It's times like these where I start to wonder if I have something setup incorrectly, like a fuse in 'backwards' (been there done that etc.).
 These metallurgical experiments sure can take their own sweet time, let me tell ya.
  
 Still the system, temptingly, starts to blossom and the SQ becomes compelling only to slip into a lack of focus in a day or so.
  
 But then I have been starting other count up timers, due to fussing etc, and the latest of these is at 430hrs which has been in the middle of the territory of a TD (toilet dump) in the past.
  
 And I must admit that right now Diane Schuur is sounding mighty nice indeed.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

JJ
 My observation thus far is the LPS on my Rednet may have fully burnt in at 1 week on 24/7. It seems now to be stable. The caps on the LPS and the transformer are quite small items so it may make sense that this will speed up as compared to a big new power amplifier for example with huge capacitance and big mains transformers.
  
 Another point, there is a big difference in source material, which can confuse the issue somewhat. For my tests I tend to stick on 6 tracks I know very well, and use those as a datum point. I am possibly odd but seem to have a way of 'remembering' a sonic signature of those 6 tracks. For example, I listened to them on a BHSE with the Esoteric K-01 well over a year ago, but I can remember how they sounded. Clues are length of decay after a loud section in the music, soundstage width and timbre, especially female vocals and depth and frequency response. These things have progressed beyond that on my current DAC and Carbon amplifier, then again after some cap upgrades on the DAC, tube rolling in the DAC and this week, the LPS mod in the Rednet. It has all been a solid sound quality curve in the right direction i.e. better in all areas.
  
 The texture aspect I spoke about the other day is something I noticed in that progression, but in the Rednet it seems to be very obvious a change. It must be the reduction of hash and general power supply noise polluting the data, bit like taking a photograph with condensation on the lens. Now it is all in focus, tight and clean.
  
 Last point, before I got the PS Audio P10 power regenerator, I used to prefer the sound of my system late at night and into early morning much more than the day time (peak mains usage in the street). After installing the P10 I get 100% consistent sound quality 24 hours a day, actually better than the best times of the day. So I wonder if any variances you pick up (on the same tracks) may be due to this?
  
 Hope this helps


----------



## mourip

astrostar59 said:
			
		

> Last point, before I got the PS Audio P10 power regenerator, I used to prefer the sound of my system late at night and into early morning much more than the day time (peak mains usage in the street). After installing the P10 I get 100% consistent sound quality 24 hours a day, actually better than the best times of the day. So I wonder if any variances you pick up (on the same tracks) may be due to this?


 
  
 I agree. After a tweak I think that it is pretty hard to compare apples to apples as far as SQ improvements without some kind of AC isolation or regeneration. Otherwise you are at the mercy of your home appliances, your neighbors, and the mains grid. I have a 1000VA isolation transformer now and I find the SQ to be much more consistent for each listening session AND improved in an absolute way.


----------



## Clemmaster

DC jack transplant performed.
 I need to redo the crimping, as it seems the connection isn't stable (my DAC's lock LED is blinking, when connected to the RN3).
 Either that, or the LPS-1 doesn't have enough juice, but I doubt it.


----------



## Superdad

johnjen said:


> Not I.
> But perhaps others who post in this little back alley have tried it and will comment.
> 
> And those UltraCaps while nice and all are still quite expensive, and from what I understand the charger is running all the time (or nearly so) anyway.
> ...


 

 Hi JJ:
  
 Sorry, but you are incorrect about the UltraCap LPS-1 with regards to the charging and ground-plane noise.  There are 4 entirely separate ground domains on the LPS-1 board, and the only things that cross them are 10 optical isolators.  The bank that is charging contributes ZERO noise to the ground-plane or output of the bank that is actively supplying the ultra-low-noise output (which is via cascaded regulators).  If it did, then the whole point and complexity of our design would have been for nothing.
  
 And of course we are not using ANY batteries!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Here you can see the ground planes, and in the board photo you can see the 10 white opto-isolators crossing those moats.


----------



## Superdad

clemmaster said:


>


 
  
 Okay, now THAT is clever!  I have never seen anyone mod an IEC inlet to mount a DC barrel jack.  Nice.


----------



## mourip

clemmaster said:


> DC jack transplant performed.
> I need to redo the crimping, as it seems the connection isn't stable (my DAC's lock LED is blinking, when connected to the RN3).
> Either that, or the LPS-1 doesn't have enough juice, but I doubt it.


 
  
 If you are talking about the crimp on the multi-pin connector. I did a light crimp and left enough bare wire above the connector to flow a bit of solder onto the wire. Makes a stout connection.
  
 BTW. Excellent reversible mod you did there.


----------



## Clemmaster

Yeah, I'll have to resort to soldering I think...

It was my first foray into crimping and I didn't feel very confident about the 5V one .
I'll redo it properly, with soldering.


----------



## Tand2016

Just made an order from Digi-Key. Hopefully the pre-crimped 300 mm cables will fit . I will use the IEC as Clemmaster did. Hopfully the Q204-ND will fit my Mutec, it will be my next project.


----------



## astrostar59

clemmaster said:


> DC jack transplant performed.
> I need to redo the crimping, as it seems the connection isn't stable (my DAC's lock LED is blinking, when connected to the RN3).
> Either that, or the LPS-1 doesn't have enough juice, but I doubt it.


 

 I would use the wiring loom that goes from the SMPS. I cut mine and soldered the first 2 leads to 5V DC positive, and the third lead to earth. I tried to do the crimping as well, but gave up.


----------



## Middy

That definitely tweak of the week award. My favourite thread on headfi always suprised. Lovely work.


----------



## Golfnutz

tand2016 said:


> Just made an order from Digi-Key. Hopefully the pre-crimped 300 mm cables will fit . I will use the IEC as Clemmaster did. Hopfully the Q204-ND will fit my Mutec, it will be my next project.


 

 Sorry, those are Molex, and 12awg (pretty big). You want the JST XH you already have listed.
  
 If anyone wants a header made, I'll do them for $5 + shipping. That basically covers the cost of wires (2 or 3), pins, JST connector.


----------



## Tand2016

golfnutz said:


> Sorry, those are Molex, and 12awg (pretty big). You want the JST XH you already have listed.
> 
> If anyone wants a header made, I'll do them for $5 + shipping. That basically covers the cost of wires (2 or 3), pins, JST connector.


 

 Thanks! Got it corrected now


----------



## Clemmaster

astrostar59 said:


> I would use the wiring loom that goes from the SMPS. I cut mine and soldered the first 2 leads to 5V DC positive, and the third lead to earth. I tried to do the crimping as well, but gave up.


 
  
 My goal was to not do any modification to the RN3, aside from unsoldering the SMPS from the original filtered IEC (they use so much solder on the terminals, with the metallic shell of the connector it takes forever to melt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 I will not give up, I have hundreds of crimp pins to get it right


----------



## johnjen

superdad said:


> Hi JJ:
> 
> Sorry, but you are incorrect about the UltraCap LPS-1 with regards to the charging and ground-plane noise.  There are 4 entirely separate ground domains on the LPS-1 board, and the only things that cross them are 10 optical isolators.  The bank that is charging contributes ZERO noise to the ground-plane or output of the bank that is actively supplying the ultra-low-noise output (which is via cascaded regulators).  If it did, then the whole point and complexity of our design would have been for nothing.
> 
> ...


 
 Cool!
  
 So the 4 planes share nothing in common (ground, power etc.)?
  
 And why 4 planes, as in, are there 4 banks of UCaps?
 And is it a SMPS or other type of charging circuit/power supply?
  
 And I didn't mean to imply that your device had batteries, but instead operated AS a battery.
 Sorry for the confusion.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

clemmaster said:


> DC jack transplant performed.
> I need to redo the crimping, as it seems the connection isn't stable (my DAC's lock LED is blinking, when connected to the RN3).
> Either that, or the LPS-1 doesn't have enough juice, but I doubt it.


 
 So is the negative side of that 5Vdc grounded locally inside the RN3?
  
 And if not I wonder if that could be contributing to the 'lack of lock'.
 Or not.
  
 Just wondering is all.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> JJ
> My observation thus far is the LPS on my Rednet may have fully burnt in at 1 week on 24/7. It seems now to be stable. The caps on the LPS and the transformer are quite small items so it may make sense that this will speed up as compared to a big new power amplifier for example with huge capacitance and big mains transformers.
> 
> Another point, there is a big difference in source material, which can confuse the issue somewhat. For my tests I tend to stick on 6 tracks I know very well, and use those as a datum point. I am possibly odd but seem to have a way of 'remembering' a sonic signature of those 6 tracks. For example, I listened to them on a BHSE with the Esoteric K-01 well over a year ago, but I can remember how they sounded. Clues are length of decay after a loud section in the music, soundstage width and timbre, especially female vocals and depth and frequency response. These things have progressed beyond that on my current DAC and Carbon amplifier, then again after some cap upgrades on the DAC, tube rolling in the DAC and this week, the LPS mod in the Rednet. It has all been a solid sound quality curve in the right direction i.e. better in all areas.
> ...


 
 In contrast, I listen to a mix of ≈ 3600K tracks from ≈ 360 albums, of which probably 30-50 are 'reference' quality, and like you I too have 'memorized' many of them, to the point of singing along, with full intonation and inflection etc.
 Frank Zappa is a favorite for this along with Dire Straits.
 And many a classical piece has risen to these reference ranks as well, along with several other genre's.
  
 This selection of music runs from 3 star to 5 star music (as I have rated them in Media Center) and this preferred selection generally is on a 3-4 week repeating cycle.
  
 I have found that when the 3 star music takes a decided step up in SQ, then I know I'm on the right track, and the 4 & 5 star tracks usually follow suit as well.
  
 Power ReGen units is one area I have not explored to any degree yet.
 I have optimized the short dedicated feed to my system using a variety of techniques and have measured this dedicated branch circuits electrical characteristics using ASCC testing parameters as I posted a ways back.
  
 These measurements are aimed at what ability the mains voltage has in being able to dump BIG current in a very short amount of time.
 And I do wonder how well any ReGen unit will measure using these tests.
  
 Perhaps one day I'll get a chance to get my hands upon one of these ReGen units and put all of these different ways of measuring the electrical response characteristics, along with their SQ results, to the test.
  
 But for the most part the power here in the NW and specifically the Seattle area is very clean, stable, and free of noise.
 And as it turns out they (City Light) just replaced the transformer 'on the pole' in my backyard with a brand new one just a couple of years back.
 Which means my system which is ≈ 80' away from the step down transformer on the pole outside, with the last ≈ 35' as the branch circuit to my system, is about as close to the source of power from the main grid as is reasonably possible.
  
 But yes I do notice the SQ improve after about 8:30 and then again after 12:30 another step up is noticed as well.
 So there do seem to be times when there is 'better' power, but I wonder how much of that is due to power factor issues vs noise vs other power distribution system related issues.
  
 And perhaps your use of 'texture' is akin to my use of the term 'focus' where the micro details become obvious whereas before they were 'buried' in the background of the acoustic soundstage.
  
 And as I hear these LPS mod improvements 'settle in' the key aspect that I am hearing is a marked increase in the ability of each 'voice' to provide more of the impact that was buried in the background due to the acoustic energy being smeared thru time.
 These mods which result in an increase in leading edge impact also seems to have the effect of sharpening the 'focus', or bringing out the 'texture' of each 'voice' all the more as you noted.
  
 Which I figure is the good stuff all the way around.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

clemmaster said:


> DC jack transplant performed.
> I need to redo the crimping, as it seems the connection isn't stable (my DAC's lock LED is blinking, when connected to the RN3).
> Either that, or the LPS-1 doesn't have enough juice, but I doubt it.


 

 Did you try taking the voltage off the PCB to make sure the pins have contact. Black probe is touching the ground wire.


----------



## Clemmaster

I'll check everything with my scope tonight.
I had to leave 5mn after finishing the mod, so I just put the case back together and set it up in the system, hoping it would just work .


----------



## Superdad

johnjen said:


> Cool!
> 
> So the 4 planes share nothing in common (ground, power etc.)?
> 
> ...


 

 The 4 domains are:
 1) Input charging circuits
 2) and 3) The two separate banks of ultracaps
 4) the output domain with its voltage regulators etc.
  
 The optoisolating relays always keep the output domain connected to whichever cap bank is active, and they keep the other bank that is charging connected to the charging circuits.  Draw yourself  a quad of 4 blocks with two in the middle and then it will make sense to you.
  
 Of course the actual functioning of the unit and all its state machines is vastly more complicated than this, but in essence the above is how it works.  True isolation and 100% blockage of leakage currents.
  
 So yes, you can think of it like you would a battery.  In fact, because these are "floating" supplies, folks can put them in series for hight voltages, or in series and center-tap for "ground" to create a bi-polar, +/- supply.
 (Sorry, paralleling for greater current is not possible unless I hand-select units whose output voltage--at identical current--match each other to within 10mV.  Otherwise one unit always ends up carrying most of the load.)
  
 By the way, an LPS-1 user confirmed with the CEO of Mutec--and then performed the mod on his MC-3+USB to remove the SMPS and run from the UltraCap supply.  He tells us it sounds great.


----------



## Clemmaster

Summary of my findings:

1- My crimping skills are good. The PSU was steady at 4.94V on the board.

2- The SPDif bitstream was superimposed to a slowly varying AC noise (didn't measure the frequency. Amplitude was in the order of 200mV pk-pk).

3- Johnjen was right: the SPDIF connector is not isolated from the chassis, so the chassis and signal (PSU) ground must be at same potential.
I fixed the AC issue by tying an extra ground pin in the JST connector to the nearby screw holding the PCB to the chassis.
Now the SPDif output is straight like a ruler.

4- the SPDIF output is DC coupled. There's no isolation transformer for it, unlike the AES outputs.

Is the original SMPS grounding scheme to tie the boards GND (0V) to the earth? Without anything in between?


----------



## Clemmaster




----------



## johnjen

clemmaster said:


> Summary of my findings:
> snip
> 
> Is the original SMPS grounding scheme to tie the boards GND (0V) to the earth? Without anything in between?


 
 The original SMPS provides THE ground connection (the chassis itself) for the mainboard.
 And the IEC connector connects its ground straight to that ground post in the right rear corner of the chassis along with the ground wire to the top cover.
  
 IOW the mainboard, the ground from the ac mains, and the chassis are all tied together using the chassis as the common connection.
  
 But also note it is the entire circuit, not just the SPDIF (or any other) output that is dependent upon a 'stable' and lowered noise floor ground connection.
  
 And my measurements showed that with the mainboard 'floating' (not grounded) the noise was considerably higher on the ground itself, which is yet another contributor to adding even more noise to the entire system.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

superdad said:


> The 4 domains are:
> 1) Input charging circuits
> 2) and 3) The two separate banks of ultracaps
> 4) the output domain with its voltage regulators etc.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the reply.
 It's always good to understand the thinking behind any design, at least from my POV.
  
 And in my experiments replacing the SMPS with an LPS has Always resulted in 'Better' SQ, so I can see where removing the 3+'s SMPS would be of benefit.
 Which is what I too have noticed when I yanked it's SMPS out of my 3+.
  
 And just for my own curiosity what type of PSU does your circuit employ?
  
 And do the isolated 4 sections share no power, nor ground, at all?
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

I am really happy with replacing the SMPS with an LPS for my D16 and am now looking at my Mutec USB to do the same.
  
 Having opened it up previously and read posts here and elsewhere I can see that it will not be as easy a task, especially if I want the mod to be reversible/transparent. It looks as if many have opted to leave the SMPS in place and to solder the LPS leads to the existing +/- connections that come from the SMPS board as seen here.
  

  
 While this is reported to work it seems to me that one is leaving the existing SMPS circuitry in parallel with the LPS. I would think that this might have unintended consequences and might not have all of the benefits of using the LPS straight into the main board. I do understand the desire to preserve the warranty however I wonder if someone with more theoretical understanding of electronics than I have could weigh in on this thought.
  
 Much appreciated,
  
 Paul


----------



## johnjen

I did yank out the SMPS from my 3+, but it wasn't 'easy'.
  
 As for the consequences of leaving it in, it probably won't make any real difference at least in an audible sense.
 Perhaps it will pull a small amount of current, until the output filter caps 'fill up', but that would be about it as far as I can see.
  
 JJ


----------



## Superdad

johnjen said:


> I did yank out the SMPS from my 3+, but it wasn't 'easy'.
> 
> As for the consequences of leaving it in, it probably won't make any real difference at least in an audible sense.
> Perhaps it will pull a small amount of current, until the output filter caps 'fill up', but that would be about it as far as I can see.
> ...


 

 Another client of ours contacted Mutec about using an UltraCap LPS-1 in place of their internal SMPS.  Here is what they wrote back:
  


> _"Yes, the MC-3+USB does not need 1.2A, so from that all good. But using a linear power supply you must remove the internal power supply of the MC-3+USB. That means you must remove the whole PCB out of the case and de-solder the power supply from that. Dont simply connect the two cables of the linear power supply to the pins of the MC-3+USBs SPS. That would let the secondary stage of the SPS run as well! Please also consider that when doing this modification, you are losing the warranty claim.
> 
> 
> I have attached a PDF showing the PCB print of the mainboard. The two DC outputs of the internal SPS are marked with + and -. At these points you must connect the cable of your linear power supply.
> ...


 -----------
  
 Refreshing to see such an open-minded response--and from the CEO no less.  But you can see *he cautions against just tacking in an external supply without removing/disconnecting their stock one.*


----------



## mourip

> Refreshing to see such an open-minded response--and from the CEO no less.  But you can see *he cautions against just tacking in an external supply without removing/disconnecting their stock one.*


 
  
 Thanks. That was about what I thought. Much appreciated.
  
 I agree that for a manufacturer he is being very open. Julian who often posts for Mutec on CA is also very helpful
  
 ...as are you!
  
 Best,
  
 Paul


----------



## johnjen

superdad said:


> snip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for that clarification.
 And its good to know that simply supplying the output voltage to the secondary, that it will 'activate' that portion of the circuit, which in turn means it probably will generate some noise.
  
 That kinda makes me glad I yanked mine out now.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

mourip said:


> I am really happy with replacing the SMPS with an LPS for my D16 and am now looking at my Mutec USB to do the same.
> 
> Having opened it up previously and read posts here and elsewhere I can see that it will not be as easy a task, especially if I want the mod to be reversible/transparent. It looks as if many have opted to leave the SMPS in place and to solder the LPS leads to the existing +/- connections that come from the SMPS board as seen here.
> 
> ...


 

 Define pins. Are they the wires Mourip posted in the picture above, or did he mean these pins?


----------



## mourip

golfnutz said:


> Define pins. Are they the wires Mourip posted in the picture above, or did he mean these pins?


 
  
 Those are the wires that supply AC to the SMPS from the IEC inlet. You would not want to connect DC to them under any circumstances. The pins I posted are the +5v/0v DC output of the SMPS and the DC power input to the main board. These are the best points to connect the LPS to the main board however just not with the SMPS still in place 
  
 Connecting an LPS to these pins with the SMPS still in place will allow the Mutec to run but as Superdad explained will still energize part of the SMPS which continues to be part of the circuit. It could sound slightly better but could also have unintended consequences, most likely introducing some of the very noise that you are trying to remove.
  
 Better seen here...


----------



## Golfnutz

mourip said:


> Those are the wires that supply AC to the SMPS from the IEC inlet. You would not want to connect DC to them under any circumstances. The pins I posted are the +5v/0v DC output of the SMPS and the DC power input to the main board. These are the best points to connect the LPS to the main board however just not with the SMPS still in place
> 
> Connecting an LPS to these pins with the SMPS still in place will allow the Mutec to run but as Superdad explained will still energize part of the SMPS which continues to be part of the circuit. It could sound slightly better but could also have unintended consequences, most likely introducing some of the very noise that you are trying to remove.
> 
> Better seen here...


 

 I get all that (your photo and mine are coming from the same place). Just curious what he meant by 'pins'. As you can see in the photo I posted, those wires are connected to pins. Was just asking for clarification (didn't want to assume anything).
 I think the only way to be certain about any of this would be to take measurements before removing SMPS, with LPS connected to the 2 contact points (your photo), and after SMPS is removed, with LPS connected to same 2 contact points.


----------



## mourip

golfnutz said:


> I get all that (your photo and mine are coming from the same place). Just curious what he meant by 'pins'. As you can see in the photo I posted, those wires are connected to pins. Was just asking for clarification (didn't want to assume anything).
> I think the only way to be certain about any of this would be to take measurements before removing SMPS, with LPS connected to the 2 contact points (your photo), and after SMPS is removed, with LPS connected to same 2 contact points.


 
 Thanks for the reply.
  
 Personally, by pins I guess that I assumed he meant the two long pins that protrude from the underside of the SMPS board to the top of the main board beneath and can be shown in the photo as having the new LPS leads soldered to them with the SMPS left in place. AFAIK they are the only source of DC for the board. Perhaps Superdad will check back in soon.
  
 Based upon Superdad's post, the quote from Mutec, and my own understanding I plan to remove the SMPS. I figure removing it cannot sound worse, only potentially better. I can easily understand anyone's hesitancy regarding losing the warranty and that it is a much more involved job.
  
 Have you already done the mod? If not, if you have the tools to take those noise measurements before and after that would be instructive for us. I do not own an oscilloscope but usually can tell lowered noise by more detail and a blacker background. Always worth it! It sure helped with my D16 and Antelope LiveClock.


----------



## Golfnutz

mourip said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Personally, by pins I guess that I assumed he meant the two long pins that protrude from the underside of the SMPS board to the top of the main board beneath and can be shown in the photo as having the new LPS leads soldered to them with the SMPS left in place. AFAIK they are the only source of DC for the board. Perhaps Superdad will check back in soon.
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry no Mutec yet, thinking about it.


----------



## Muziqboy

New additions on top of the LPS mods that I recently did are a couple of TOPAZ line noise suppressing Ultra-Isolators.
 I'm powering up the NUC and the monitor with a 500va that has a .001pF capacitance rating and a 1kva also with a .001pF powering up the rest of the gear.
  
 I was researching into this about a year ago and should have gotten it then as the prices on these things are going up now since these are no longer made and a little hard to find in good condition.
 Got lucky and found a brand new 500va and a used 1kva that looks almost new.
  
 IMO another step in the right direction as far as SQ improvement
  
 Here's a good thread on CA about the benefits of using these.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/29662-discussion-of-ac-mains-isolation-transformers-started-wposts-moved-from-quotlps-1-troubleshootingquot-thread/?do=findComment&comment=589394


----------



## Middy

I tried the Airlink balanced isolation transformer. Very nice boost but not the value of the Topaz Americans can pick up cheap. The Crux of the Topaz being is very low winding Capacitance.
As John S explains. I though my airlink gave me 10% -15% but it's with my UK Home electrics so this varies with your local noise. Plug and play for me..
.
Musiqboy have a look at DC offset filters. Mine was an investment incase I got noise off the Transformer. Humming buzzing ECT. It added too the SQ the one I got.
Cheap and rock solid.
Good luck
Dave
http://www.atlhifi.com/shop/fully-assembled-devices/dc-blocker-trap-filter-assembled-in-case/


----------



## Muziqboy

Thanks for that link Dave, will look into that. Both the TOPAZ I have here is silent. I can only hear a very slight humming/buzzing when I put my ear up to it, otherwise it is dead silent from my listening position. As for the added boost in SQ, another veil removed with the music coming at you with immense clarity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Glad I pulled the trigger on these. For me, a very worthy addition to the system.


----------



## johnjen

mourip said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Personally, by pins _*I guess that I assumed he meant the two long pins that protrude from the underside of the SMPS board to the top of the main board beneath and can be shown in the photo as having the new LPS leads soldered to them with the SMPS left in place. AFAIK they are the only source of DC for the board.*_ Perhaps Superdad will check back in soon.
> 
> ...


 
_*Yes those are the pins.*_
 They run from the SMPS board to the mainboard and are a bit of a bugger to remove, so be careful.
 And be aware that there are 4 pins, 2) 120Vac input and 2) 5Vdc output.
 These pins also serve to hold the SMPS board in place, so they are somewhat 'robust', which adds to the difficulty in their removal.
  
 As a reference I did take some noise measurements and posted them earlier in this thread.
  
 JJ


----------



## Middy

Just the link for the Topaz details from John S. 
Balanced Isolation. Sine wave regeneration and DC blocking. In that order the biggest boosts to fidelity with better power.
I sold my OPPO HA1 for cents.. £300 but that going to the Lps1 fund now i changed the wifes mind for my old gear.
Now we have baby coming..god help us..
Ill try the ISO regen...Then baby things until 2043.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/29662-discussion-of-ac-mains-isolation-transformers-started-wposts-moved-from-quotlps-1-troubleshootingquot-thread/
Hope the link helps


----------



## Muziqboy

deleted.


----------



## Tand2016

Just finished my lps converting. First of my 16R would not connect to my network. I think I used almost 1 hour disconnecting and connecting my FMCs, no luck. Finally that one of the cables was lose. Connected and ethernet on! 
  
 I think my Rednet 16 R is a little different than your Rednet 3s and 16s because it uses 7 volt and to be sure I messured it to 7 volt. An other thing is that my both ps (Rednet 16 R has 2 originaly) uses a 10 position Conn Housing, but only with 8 cables connected. Since I orderd a 8 position one I had to slightly modify it. 
  
 So, what about the sound? It is Fantastic! Only 30 min of playing and the jump in sound quality is a massive. It is more dynamic and at the same time smoother. Highly recommend.


----------



## Golfnutz

tand2016 said:


> Just finished my lps converting. First of my 16R would not connect to my network. I think I used almost 1 hour disconnecting and connecting my FMCs, no luck. Finally that one of the cables was lose. Connected and ethernet on!
> 
> I think my Rednet 16 R is a little different than your Rednet 3s and 16s because it uses 7 volt and to be sure I messured it to 7 volt. An other thing is that my both ps (Rednet 16 R has 2 originaly) uses a 10 position Conn Housing, but only with 8 cables connected. Since I orderd a 8 position one I had to slightly modify it.
> 
> So, what about the sound? It is Fantastic! Only 30 min of playing and the jump in sound quality is a massive. It is more dynamic and at the same time smoother. Highly recommend.


 

 Awesome!


----------



## Superdad

tand2016 said:


> So, what about the sound? It is Fantastic! Only 30 min of playing and the jump in sound quality is a massive. It is more dynamic and at the same time smoother. Highly recommend.


 
  
 Nice work!


----------



## Tand2016

Quote:


superdad said:


> Nice work!


 

 Thanks Golfnutz and Alex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . It sounds so clean its almost scary, never heard this body and level of details before. It must be because the noize its all gone now.
  
 When connecting the harness with the Conn Housing and the pre-crimped 22 AWG jumpers I also disconnected the other PS from my main board, just in case it could ad some noize.
  
 One thing maybe you guys can help me with, will the 22 AWG cable be enough? Is there any benefit to use a 18 AWG cable e.g?


----------



## astrostar59

tand2016 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> superdad said:
> ...


 
 Congrats and enjoy. My Rednet 3 is in another world completely.


----------



## johnjen

tand2016 said:


> Just finished my lps converting. First of my 16R would not connect to my network. I think I used almost 1 hour disconnecting and connecting my FMCs, no luck. Finally that one of the cables was lose. Connected and ethernet on!
> 
> I think my Rednet 16 R is a little different than your Rednet 3s and 16s because it uses 7 volt and to be sure I messured it to 7 volt. An other thing is that my both ps (Rednet 16 R has 2 originaly) uses a 10 position Conn Housing, but only with 8 cables connected. Since I orderd a 8 position one I had to slightly modify it.
> 
> So, what about the sound? It is Fantastic! Only 30 min of playing and the jump in sound quality is a massive. It is more dynamic and at the same time smoother. Highly recommend.


 
 Excellent Indeed…!
  
 And it's ALWAYS a good idea to check the stock operating conditions BEFORE surgery begins.
 And I agree that the step up in SQ is most welcome and revealing and wonderful.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

And speaking of "the step up in SQ is most welcome and revealing and wonderful".
 My system is showing signs of reaching for it's SQ peak.
  
 And I just completed my latest round of 800 modification experiments.
  
 I've hit gen 3+ for my 800 mod.
 I still have some tweaking to do, which may take it to gen 4, time will tell.
  
 But Boy Howdy is it ringing all the bells it supposed to…
  
 All the usual phrases and terms I use in these situations are making themselves known.
  
 JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

tand2016 said:


> Thanks Golfnutz and Alex
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'd be surprised if someone like Digikey even sells an 18awg pre-crimped wire since the pins are only rated at 22awg max (I haven't checked).
  
 However, if you have the means, and for the cost of 4' of 18awg wire, you could determine that yourself (experimenting on your own is part of the fun). I really doubt you'll hear any differences though.


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> And speaking of "the step up in SQ is most welcome and revealing and wonderful".
> My system is showing signs of reaching for it's SQ peak.
> 
> And I just completed my latest round of 800 modification experiments.
> ...


 

 Ha Ha, it sounds like you are taking happy pills, or more like thoroughly enjoying your sound system! I think the big deal with this hobby is the enjoyment and emotional connection it can give you to music, it is good for the soul for sure. It lifts the mood so to speak. And taking away all those digital nasties I have suffered from 30 years of CD players and then various DACs, I can finally say my DAC and HPs sound like, err - VINYL!!
  
 Ridiculous isn't it, how I have spent all this money and time and tweaking, trying different gear out, buying and selling on AGon, then to finally refer back to an old school record player and how that connected ME to the music? When this happens, I can finally forget the gear, and chill out too the music, imagine the illusion of the performance in my room, which is what's it's all about - YES.


----------



## dmhenley

Has anyone tested the latest Duelund Tinned Copper hookup wire?
  
 I grabbed a good length of the stuff - 16GA - when it was discounted.
 I first upgraded the internal wiring of my speakers (98db Lore) and had some success. Next, I ran it as speaker wire. I really dig the additional tone and harmonic complexity I'm getting. 
  
 To the point of this thread...
 So, I used a bit of the left over wire to re-wire my Bottlehead SEX 2.1 headamp- only from the OT's to the headphone jack. It's 26 strand wire, so not sure I'd want to venture further in with such large wire.
  
 Don't expect much...I'll know soon...but am listening now and I feel like I am hearing more of the tone and timbre I want. 
 Too soon - could be wishful thinking. 
  
 Overall, an inexpensive experiment - $6.99 per meter at the time, though I think it's now $9.99/m - when comparing to high-end speaker cable prices.


----------



## mourip

dmhenley said:


> Has anyone tested the latest Duelund Tinned Copper hookup wire?
> 
> I grabbed a good length of the stuff - 16GA - when it was discounted.
> I first upgraded the internal wiring of my speakers (98db Lore) and had some success. Next, I ran it as speaker wire. I really dig the additional tone and harmonic complexity I'm getting.
> ...


 
  
 I first heard about the Western Electric NOS tinned copper wire and then the Duelund reissue on Jeff Day's blog. I liked the WE wire so much that I rewired my speakers with it and then ran it to my amp. I then got the Duelund 16ga wire and did the same with a newer version of my Omega Audio single driver speakers.
  
 Next I read that Jeff was also having success making IC's from it. Duelund then came out with a 16ga version that sounded better and was easier to work with for IC's.
  
 I have basically now run Duelund from my drivers to my amp and made all of my IC's with it. It does keep breaking in for a while but it has a wonderfully detailed yet natural tonality.
  
 I would say it was not just big bang-for-the buck but remarkable in an absolute sense. My Microzotl 2 and MZ10 are quite new otherwise I would probably rewire them also.


----------



## dmhenley

mourip said:


> I first heard about the Western Electric NOS tinned copper wire and then the Duelund reissue on Jeff Day's blog. I liked the WE wire so much that I rewired my speakers with it and then ran it to my amp. I then got the Duelund 16ga wire and did the same with a newer version of my Omega Audio single driver speakers.
> 
> Next I read that Jeff was also having success making IC's from it. Duelund then came out with a 16ga version that sounded better and was easier to work with for IC's.
> 
> ...




I also read about the Duelund wire on Jeff Days site. 
I agree, it is dynamic, natural and detailed sounding.

The IC's are on my list! I am currently using the Belden 8402 interconnects and like those alot.

I'm listening now on 'phones and that same character is coming through.


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Ha Ha, it sounds like you are taking happy pills, or more like thoroughly enjoying your sound system! I think the big deal with this hobby is the enjoyment and emotional connection it can give you to music, it is good for the soul for sure. It lifts the mood so to speak. And taking away all those digital nasties I have suffered from 30 years of CD players and then various DACs, I can finally say my DAC and HPs sound like, err - VINYL!!
> 
> Ridiculous isn't it, how I have spent all this money and time and tweaking, trying different gear out, buying and selling on AGon, then to finally refer back to an old school record player and how that connected ME to the music? When this happens, I can finally forget the gear, and chill out too the music, imagine the illusion of the performance in my room, which is what's it's all about - YES.


 
 Happy pills, HAPPY PILLS I don't need no stink'n Happy Pills, I gots me a tweako playback system…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 When my system is hitting its peak and I start hearing very familiar music with new acoustic aspects and new subtle (and some not so subtle) nuances, I just smile and shake my head at what is truly possible now.
  
 Revelatory is a word that comes to mind.
  
 And today while listening to my cheap speakers, I'm hearing these same aspects as well, which just further reinforces to me that the system is reaching for its peak SQ potential.
  
 I gots me some fer REAL Happy Pills and no prescription required…
 But then again it ain't exactly off the shelf either… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

dmhenley said:


> I also read about the Duelund wire on Jeff Days site.
> I agree, it is dynamic, natural and detailed sounding.
> 
> The IC's are on my list! I am currently using the Belden 8402 interconnects and like those alot.
> ...


 
  
 The IC's that I am replacing are the 8402's


----------



## dmhenley

mourip said:


> The IC's that I am replacing are the 8402's




Look forward to hearing how the Duelund IC's sound!

I've a couple other ideas I'd like to try out.


----------



## Tand2016

golfnutz said:


> I'd be surprised if someone like Digikey even sells an 18awg pre-crimped wire since the pins are only rated at 22awg max (I haven't checked).
> 
> However, if you have the means, and for the cost of 4' of 18awg wire, you could determine that yourself (experimenting on your own is part of the fun). I really doubt you'll hear any differences though.


 

 I was thinking of making them myself in 18-20 awg. Right now I will leave it as it is, maybe I will check it out as a future project. Still very, very happy with the sq and the converting - this is only the 3 time or so I have soldered in my live


----------



## Middy

Practice first for 20 mins on bits of wire. Lots of flux. A top tip to reduce soldering time. 
Use the wife's hair dryer to increase the temp of the area you are going to solder. 3mins ect.
Any pins re tin (pins posts with new solder) And some flux.

Great to practice on old broken tvs just a small piece of PCB.
Sorry if you know...
Good luck
Dave


----------



## Tand2016

Thanks for the tips


middy said:


> Practice first for 20 mins on bits of wire. Lots of flux. A top tip to reduce soldering time.
> Use the wife's hair dryer to increase the temp of the area you are going to solder. 3mins ect.
> Any pins re tin (pins posts with new solder) And some flux.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the tips


----------



## dmhenley

Duelund Tinned Copper hookup wire experiment is a success. 
 Overall improvements to SQ - more tone color and natural timbre and tone. Dynamics slightly elevated. 
  
 A great upgrade to my ears - this wire is worth a look.


----------



## johnjen

dmhenley said:


> Duelund Tinned Copper hookup wire experiment is a success.
> Overall improvements to SQ - more tone color and natural timbre and tone. Dynamics slightly elevated.
> 
> A great upgrade to my ears - this wire is worth a look.


 
 I meant to ask, what were the design goals for this type of wire, and what metallurgy is being used?
  
 I went to the site and there were scant details available.
  
 JJ


----------



## dmhenley

johnjen said:


> I meant to ask, what were the design goals for this type of wire, and what metallurgy is being used?
> 
> I went to the site and there were scant details available.
> 
> JJ


 
 I read up on the Duelund wire here: 
Jeff's Place.
 And his review is here:
Positive Feedback


----------



## johnjen

Thanks for those links, it helps put this wire into perspective.
  
 And for some systems I can see where this wire would be of benefit, still the details of its composition remain a bit obscure.
  
 I've been looking into metallurgy of late and these days tin over copper is not a 'common' configuration for sure.
  
 I also found it interesting that he uses a Cable Cooker to help 'settle in' the wires.
 I also use a Cable Cooker and heartily endorse it's use as well.
  
 JJ


----------



## dmhenley

I'm having fun with the experiments, and, am fascinated by some of the vintage designs still used today. 
 Also, I want to know first hand how these things sound.


----------



## johnjen

I'd be interested in what your findings are for sure.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

Status report.
  
 I just added a 2nd Mutec box, a 3+usb version this time to the system.
 And a veil descended over the presentation.
 I figure its due to the SMPS in the new arrival since this veil was eclipsed when I replaced the SMPS in my other 3+.
  
 So I look forward to yanking it out and powering it from the unused half of the dual LPS I recently put into service.
 This will add yet further confirmation of the effectiveness of using a LPS vs. SMPS.
  
 And I've been measuring my 800's and fussing with the knobs of my mod I've been applying, and thus far the results I'm getting are most encouraging, both acoustically and based upon the squiggles on paper I'm generating.
  
 Interesting Times in Audio Indeed…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

It's the smps in the 3+ usb for sure that's adding the veil = noise. And yes, you can use 5v with the 3+ usb as I have found out.
 I also just added another 3+ usb to the chain and modded it with lps.
  
 If I can go to the next upcoming meet, (not sure yet if I could) then you can listen to the rig and see if you hear any diffrence.


----------



## astrostar59

muziqboy said:


> It's the smps in the 3+ usb for sure that's adding the veil = noise. And yes, you can use 5v with the 3+ usb as I have found out.
> I also just added another 3+ usb to the chain and modded it with lps.
> 
> If I can go to the next upcoming meet, (not sure yet if I could) then you can listen to the rig and see if you hear any diffrence.


 

 Does adding a second Mutiec which I guess will reclock the stream help the SQ. If it does, I wonder how that is happening, as if the single Mutec is working ok won't it simply confuse or conflict?
  
 It is fascinating. And if it does help, I wonder why dCS and others haven't used clocks in series.


----------



## Muziqboy

Daisy chaining Mutec's in reclock mode lowers the jitter before feeding to the dac.
 You can read up on it here https://www.mutec-net.com/artikel.php?id=1388254422
  
 When that guy was experimenting on it, he was using the non-usb Mutec's.
 The Mutec usb is said to be comparable to 3 non-usb version cascaded together.


----------



## Middy

Just a little bit of an update and I am glad to see the internal mods are going great all.
I did get an Uptone LPS 1 supply in advance of the Uptone Iso coming out in a week or so. I have the Intona feeding my dac with battery 5v line.
The uptone blew that out the water in clarity both top and bottom. Perceived noise floor opened up new sounds.
I cheated with an ifi idefender with a mini usb port to bypass incoming 5v and swapped the usb2 to mini with a DC female to mini. Really suprised it woke the intona up even with its slightly noisy side out.
Expensive option but worth the price. Can't wait to see what the upgraded Regen...Iso does too.
Good luck with the modding
Dave


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> It's the smps in the 3+ usb for sure that's adding the veil = noise. And yes, you can use 5v with the 3+ usb as I have found out.
> I also just added another 3+ usb to the chain and modded it with lps.
> 
> If I can go to the next upcoming meet, (not sure yet if I could) then you can listen to the rig and see if you hear any diffrence.


 
 I'm also not sure if I'll make the bottlehead meet, or not.
  
 And today I yanked the SMPS out of my 3+usb and powered it up (6.255Vdc) with my dual LPS.
 It failed to latch on the aes data stream, and would loose its lock on a SPDIF feed from my 3+ as well.
  
 So I'm investigating getting it repaired, which means sending it back to Germany.
 I bought it used so there is no warranty.
  
 But before I send it in I'll try lowering the voltage down from 6.2 to 5.2Vdc to see if that fixes its problem.
 I sure hope so because it's not gunna be cheap to get it fixed, what with shipping, let alone the actual repair costs.
  
 One of the prerequisites of DIY is to take responsibility when things go sideways.
  
 And I'm thankfull this sort of thing is rare.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> I'm also not sure if I'll make the bottlehead meet, or not.
> 
> And today I yanked the SMPS out of my 3+usb and powered it up (6.255Vdc) with my dual LPS.
> It failed to latch on the aes data stream, and would loose its lock on a SPDIF feed from my 3+ as well.
> ...


 
  
 I was experiencing the same thing with not locking on the input signal. I installed a 2.1mm female jack as I did on the non-usb Mutec but for some reason, I was getting flickering of the blue led lock until I found a certain 2.1mm male plug out of the several that I have on hand that finally worked and I got a stable lock on the input signal. It was really weird that this thing only happens with both the usb version that I have and noticed also that happened once I removed the smps board out. It did not happened before when the smps was still in there.
  
 As an experiment, before you send it back try to solder the wires coming out of your LPS directly to the board on the Mutec usb and see if that will give you a solid lock on the AES input signal. I think hopefully that will solve the issue.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks for the insights.
 And that you had the same flickering leds that I see, and the lack of lock on, gives me a few hints.
 And I'll use the scope to see if I can see anything weird as well.
  
 And yeah it was working fine on the SMPS, well except for the SQ.
 I kept waiting for the magic to happen and it just didn't.
 So I figured the LPS upgrade ought to do the trick…
  
 But I'd already hardwired it directly to the mainboard, as is my usual routine.
  
 But that you saw the same behavior as what I'm seeing, and your solution was to improve the connection from the LPS to the mainboard (for more current delivery capability) gives me a few clues to pursue.  :thumb
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I was just thinking that we might have disturbed some grounding scheme or something when we removed the SMPS.
 Kinda like the grounding that's important on the Rednets.
 just my 2c.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah I thought the same and restored the grounding scheme to stock but it didn't make any difference.
 I even thought it may have been a ground loop problem, but no matter what I tried the problem persists.
  
 The thing is the 3+ (non usb version) has no problem with the LPS mod, it's only the 3+usb that can't latch onto the incoming signal.
 Perhaps its a firmware issue.
  
 I'll start fussing with different supply voltages later today and see what happens.
  
 I do find it odd that the 3+usb has 6.x Vdc feeding it where as the 3+ uses 5Vdc.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> I do find it odd that the 3+usb has 6.x Vdc feeding it where as the 3+ uses 5Vdc.
> 
> JJ


 
  
 I wonder if it is the USB board that needs it? I have not replaced my SMPS yet but I did pull the USB board.


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Yeah I thought the same and restored the grounding scheme to stock but it didn't make any difference.
> I even thought it may have been a ground loop problem, but no matter what I tried the problem persists.
> 
> The thing is the 3+ (non usb version) has no problem with the LPS mod, it's only the 3+usb that can't latch onto the incoming signal.
> ...




The thing is, if you just solder wires to the + and - of the Mutec usb and run a LPS to it without removing the SMPS, it locks on the incoming AES or SPDif signal with no problem at all.

So a word of caution for folks wanting to do the LPS mod on the Mutec usb. Just solder wires to the power pins on the Mutec usb and do not remove the SMPS until JJ can figure out what's going on.


----------



## Superdad

muziqboy said:


> The thing is, if you just solder wires to the + and - of the Mutec usb and run a LPS to it without removing the SMPS, it locks on the incoming AES or SPDif signal with no problem at all.
> 
> So a word of caution for folks wanting to do the LPS mod on the Mutec usb. Just solder wires to the power pins on the Mutec usb and do not remove the SMPS until JJ can figure out what's going on.


 

 Per Mutec's CEO, leaving the stock SMPS connected is NOT advisable:
  
  


> _"Yes, the MC-3+USB does not need 1.2A, so from that all good. But using a linear power supply you must remove the internal power supply of the MC-3+USB. That means you must remove the whole PCB out of the case and de-solder the power supply from that. Dont simply connect the two cables of the linear power supply to the pins of the MC-3+USBs SPS. That would let the secondary stage of the SPS run as well! Please also consider that when doing this modification, you are losing the warranty claim.
> 
> 
> I have attached a PDF showing the PCB print of the mainboard. The two DC outputs of the internal SPS are marked with + and -. At these points you must connect the cable of your linear power supply.
> ...


----------



## Muziqboy

superdad said:


> Per Mutec's CEO, leaving the stock SMPS connected is NOT advisable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have read that but for some reason if you remove the smps, the Mutec usb version is having a hard time locking on the incoming digital signal. Both me and JJ have recently experienced this. The solution that I stumbled upon is to try different 5.5 x 2.1mm dc plug until I found one that gave me a solid lock on to the incoming digital signal since I installed a 2.1mm dc female jack on the back of the Mutec.

Might have something to do with current supply don't know. I'm just guessing at this point.


----------



## johnjen

OK so here's the deal.
  
 I lowered the voltage to 5.219Vdc (from 6.255Vdc) and the 3+usb is now working and is stable.
  
 Which begs the question why is the SMPS, when it outputs 6.239Vdc (measured), but when using 6.255Vdc from a LPS, causes problems?
 This is a head scratcher for sure.
  
 And why does the 3+usb use 6Vdc when the 3+ uses only 5Vdc?
 But even more of a conundrum is why are these circuits so sensitive to just 1 volt difference at their input?
  
 Usually they have regulators whose job is to lower the voltage to that which is needed by the circuit so the input voltage can have a fairly wide range of input voltage variance.
 Except in this case even 1 Vdc is too much, even though the SMPS output voltage was ramped up for the 3+usb.
  
 A head scratcher anyway you look at it.
  
 So if you match the voltage of a LPS to the output from the stock SMPS for your 3+usb, and it becomes unstable and won't latch onto the digital audio signal, try lowering the voltage down to 5.x Vdc.
 It works for me and I'm now hearing what others have reported as a benefit of the 3+usb vs the 3+ and without the SMPS veil.
  
 I sent in a request to Mutec for their repair services, but will shift gears a bit and ask them why this situation exists and report back what their response is.
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> OK so here's the deal.
> 
> I lowered the voltage to 5.219Vdc (from 6.255Vdc) and the 3+usb is now working and is stable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Here's another head scratcher just for kicks. The first Mutec usb version that I have is still being powered by the LPS that I originally got to power it which is 6.3vdc output.
 When I first modded it, I just soldered wires to the + and - pins on the Mutec board and got the other end of the wires soldered to a female 2.1mm dc jack mounted on the back.
 I did not removed the smps in the Mutec and it was locking on to the digital signal in an instant without problems.
  
 It's when I removed the smps that I started having problems with the signal not locking and the blue led lock flickering. So I kept replacing the 2.1mm male connector of the LPS cable until I found 1 that finally worked and I got a solid blue led lock. So ya, I'm still powering it with 6.3vdc without any problems now.
 Ponder on that.


----------



## johnjen

My understanding is that most circuits that use 5Vdc should be able to utilize at least a +20% higher voltage, which is 6Vdc and I have seen instances where 7.5Vdc is 'acceptable'.
  
 And in your case it could be that the SMPS is pulling down the voltage that the rest of the mainboard 'sees'.
 Which in turn may lower it enough to avoid this scrambling of its pea brain.
  
 And I wonder about what effect the firmware update for the 3+usb has on all of this as well.
  
 And it may have been a current limiting situation with the barrel connectors you were using, until you used the 'correct' one.
  
 So I'll dive into what is going on with all of this when Mutec replies to my request.
  
 JJ


----------



## Acrobat77

Hi all, I'm the person who linked to the manual that describes how to remove the push lever from the AES/EBU XLR connector of the MC-3+ USB. One of you linked to the topic where I shared it or copy-pasted the text I wrote.

Anyway, just chiming in to say my MC-3+ USB works fine with the original SMPS removed. I'm powering it using one of the four rails of my Paul Hynes SR7-MR4 PSU which is configured to output 6.2V. The DC output wires are soldered directly to the Mutec mainboard. I'm using just two inputs of the Mutec; primarily the USB input coming from a SOTm sMs-200 and occasionally the Toslink input from a HTPC.

It worked fine both before and after the 1.10 firmware update of the Mutec.

Good luck in solving the issues you guys face. No idea why it doesn't work for you.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks for the input and yeah it is rather strange that it should be so sensitive to the input voltage.
  
 And I'll investigate the firmware updates to see if there is any correlation there and also see what Mutec says about all of this as well.
  
 This is a first for me where an electronic device has this degree of difficulty with the variation of its power supply voltage.
  
 But I must say I'm rather pleased with the results it brings to my system regardless of these foibles.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

More results from my fussings.
  
 I found that my dual LPS was getting to hot for the regulator so it was 'protecting' itself, which is probably why the 3+usb was failing to latch.
  
 So I opened up both ends of the case to let it breathe.
 Then after it cooled down and stabilized, I again cranked up the voltage feeding the 3+usb to 6.2 volts and then power cycled it.
 It failed to latch, until I lowered the voltage to 6.049Vdc when it latched up and has stayed operating properly ever since.
 I see this as more details to help figure this all out.
  
 And granted my dual LPS is WAY overkill for use with these low powered 3+'s which in turn means it generates more heat than a more purpose built LPS would.
 So if your LPS case runs Very warm, it may be a good idea to add some form of additional cooling to the case, via either convective or forced air methods.
  
 As an example I added a few vents holes to a Headroom BUDA power amp and used convective cooling and as a result the SQ took a small step up as a result.
  
 So to fix the overheating LPS problem, I have 4 choices.
 #1 I can drill some holes in the case and use convective air flow cooling.
 #2 I can order a lowered output voltage and lowered VA rated transformer with (dual 7Vac instead of the existing 12Vac windings).
 #3 Build up another LPS just for these 2 Mutec boxes.
 #4 Add a fan to this case.
  
 I opted to order up a Noctua 80mm 3 speed fan to either force feed cool air into or pull the hot air from the case.
 Which is the 2nd least expensive option but the one with the most flexibility in terms of dialing in the amount of added cooling.
  
 Which also brings up the possibility that others may also be running their 'home built' LPS units at or near their thermal limits.
 And this in turn may be a contributing factor with these signal latching problems.
  
 JJ


----------



## astrostar59

johnjen said:


> More results from my fussings.
> 
> I found that my dual LPS was getting to hot for the regulator so it was 'protecting' itself, which is probably why the 3+usb was failing to latch.
> 
> ...


 

 I am sorry you hear you are having issues with your LPS. Is it this one?
  

  
 Here is a HDPlex like my unit to compare how they mount the Regulators on the heatsinks.
  

  
 Could you retrofit 2 x heatsinks and detach the regulators on the LPS board and then mount those on the heatsink with a bolt and heat cement?
 If you can source some heatsinks that fit your sides, bolt them to the outside of your sides, and drill oversized square apertures in the sides. Then gain access to the heatsink inner face.
  
 My HDPlex with no devices attached seems to draw almost zero mains power from my P10. Then when I boot up my Mac Mini which is using 12V DC it then shows a mains draw of about 30 watts. So I assume the HDPlex takes what it needs, and then converts the voltage down to 12VDC in my case. If you have 2 Mutecs drawing then they will up the heat in the LPS?
  
 Does any of this make sense? I am not a tech, but hope this helps.


----------



## johnjen

Say there, and thanks for the ideas etc.
  
 The dual regulator board (the picture you posted shows it) is a low current model (1.5 Amp/channel) and so adding additional heat sinks is somewhat unnecessary and it would be a PIA to implement given the existing case etc.
  
 And using a fan is the most effective way of dissipating the existing heat.
  
 And really it isn't that big of a deal to add a fan to the case.
 All I have to do is drill a few more holes on the end plate and then mount it and wire it to an already existing power supply.
  
 And as I see it this is just part of the process to get everything dialed in.
  
 And if I were going to dedicate this LPS just for these 2) 3+ units I'd probably opt for a transformer with dual 7Vac windings instead of the 12Vac I'm now using and go for a lowered VA rating as well, which would also drop the amount of heat the regulator board needs to dissipate in the first place.
  
 But really a fan is the most effective way to deal with this thermal problem and keep my options open if I want to further modify this LPS for other uses down the road.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

So in keeping with my new theme of eliminating all possible evil from my system by removing any and all uses of SMPS, I pulled another one out today.
  
 It was powering the fan I use to help cool my Rok amp, and wired it to the LPS I use for my FMC (Fiber Media Converter) instead.
  
 Ahhhhhhhh, even better…
  
 AND it seems as though I'm getting into blossom action, at long last.
  
 Every aspect of acoustical presentation is '*Better*', with no exceptions.
 Every term and descriptor I use to capture an auditory aspect has taken a step up.
  
 A new 100% has been reached,
 and exceeded.
  
 JJ


----------



## mourip

Just a test post to see if it even works. Not too happy with the new site...


----------



## johnjen (Apr 28, 2017)

I just now actually managed to log in for the 1st time since this whole site re-do started.

And I got the new fan installed for my dual LPS.
I've got it running at it's lowest speed and it is keeping everything nice and cool.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Just an update.

Inspired by the results of the Rednet lps mod, I built this dual 5vdc output lps using 2 of the LT3042 regulators that boasts an ultra low .8uV of noise coupled to 2 copper shielded R-core 9V 1.65A transformers.







 

The casing is exactly like the MeiYAN lps's that I previously got.
It is powering both the Mutec (usb) in the chain.





Even at this early stage of burn-in, the SQ stepped up another notch.


----------



## johnjen

Nice job!

Clean and well laid out.

What are the red/black pair of wires going thru the vent holes for?

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Those wires are for the led voltage display that I mounted on the outside of the top cover plate since I have no way or tools for carving out the front panel to mount it there.
I also did not install an on/off switch since it is always powered on all the time anyways but I did installed an audiophile fuse in it.


----------



## johnjen

Ah, I see, that makes sense.

And I did put an on-off switch on my dual LPS but I'm thinking of using the built in switch to be able to turn each 3+ on/off separately as well.
As usual there are both good and not so good reasons to do this.
And doing this on the 3+usb will be easy, but a bit more complicated with the 3+.

And I'm also thinking of making a dedicated low power dual +5Vdc LPS just for the 3+'s like what you just did.


----------



## Muziqboy

JJ, 
I will strongly suggest going with 2 of the LT3042 regulators and Copper shielded r-cores transformers like the ones I used. I can only find 9V 1.65A as the lowest in r-cores and no 7V anywhere else. 

As you have mentioned before, using the lowest secondary transformer voltage output to feed the LT3042 will result in less dissipated heat and R-cores compared to Toroidal transformers are much more better in my opinion.

Here's the link for the LT3042 http://www.ebay.com/itm/182353507206?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT I made an offer of $72 for 2 and seller gave it to me.

And here's the link for the r-cores http://www.ebay.com/itm/122105148628?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT I think you can get by with just 1 transformer to power both regulators.
The casing I ordered here http://www.ebay.com/itm/161819363047?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Compared to this MeiYAN http://www.ebay.com/itm/132021195239?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT There is definitely an improvement in the SQ using the dual LT3042.

So now, the MeiYAN is powering the 2 Mutec (non-usb) and the DIY dual LT3042 is powering the 2 Mutec (usb).


----------



## Clemmaster

@Superdad: I'm having issues with the LPS-1 and Rednet 3.

The pair had been running fine for a couple weeks. When I returned from travel, the Rednet seemed to have lost power. 
Now, every time I unplug and plug back the DC jack, the RN3 powers up (as indicated by the RJ45 LED) but it doesn't seem stable. The RN3 does not show in the Rednet controller.

Other PSUs > 1.1A work fine.

Could it be some kind of wear on the ultra caps?


----------



## johnjen

Musiqboy.
I too can't find any 7Vac output voltages xfmrs.
I wonder where they went?

But I did find a dual 6Vac output @1.25A (along with a dual 15Vac outputs) in a 30watt R core xfmr, which lowers the heat needed to be dissipated even further.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-115V-23...c418c43&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=262365114779

And I found a single output PSU in a box for $40
http://www.ebay.com/itm/15W-Regulat...721ecdb&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=292034281936

Boy does the availability of this stuff change a lot…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

I found a 25VA dual 7Vac Telema
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25VA-7V-X2-...ormer-audio-/131863677551?hash=item1eb3b00a6f

JJ


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## Muziqboy (May 2, 2017)

That's almost the same that I used in the RN3 except it was a 15VA (7.5VA + 7.5VA).
But from what I've read, these Talema's are toroidals which are surpassed by the r-core transformers in performance.
I'm actually thinking of replacing the Talema in the RN3 with an R-core transformer later on.

Here is a quote from this site.

"*Toroidal transformers have good regulation and low output impedance, but OTOH high interwinding capacitance. High interwinding capacitance means wide bandwidth coupling between the primary and secondary windings. This may not be what you want in an audio power supply, as it implies that all kinds of noise as well as 50/60Hz can pass through the power supply. If you decide to use a toroidal transformer, I would specify an additional electrostatic shield between the primary & secondary windings, as this helps reduce the primary-secondary noise transmission issue somewhat. *

*R-core transformers usually have split-bobbin primary and secondary windings, which cuts down on interwinding capacitance and makes it considerably more difficult for non-50/60Hz noise components to pass in and out of the power supply. Here you can also specify an additional electrostatic shield between the primary & secondary windings for less noise transmission, but this is not as important as it is when using a toroidal transformer for power supply applications.*"

And I think having a low interwinding capacitance is also the advantage of using isolation transformers like the 2 Topaz isolators that I just recently am using with my set-up.


----------



## johnjen

I agree with what you posted…
But, (there's always a but right?)

Adding more capacitance to a coil does create a wider bandwidth in terms of transmission of hi freq energy.
But a coil does block hi-freq energy from passing thru by it's very nature, so we are talking about adding just a small amount of added hi-freq energy.
And yes the digital circuits create a whole bunch of hi-freq energy which does not need to be passed to other gear.

So really what we're dealing with here is that last 5% (or less) of performance, to tweak these mods to achieve that last bit of 'better'.
And I doubt that this added capacitance will have any effect on the 50/60Hz operating frequency that passes thru.
And since we ARE all about going for that last 5% using 'better' xfrmrs is right down our alley.

And as a side note that Topaz xfrmr does one thing that most who have gone down this road have experienced, that being, balanced power vs single ended ('hot' and a 'neutral') power.
IOW just splitting the power delivery between 2 wires instead of just one, usually makes a BIG difference in terms of SQ changes.
This is a common trait between a balanced vs single ended transmission of energy, or data, or analog, signals.
But in this case I figure that balanced power delivery is helping to deliver the pulsed current demands of any PSU more quickly and efficiently.
And my guess is that this aspect of these isolation xfrmrs has a bigger impact than the amount of capacitance and by a large margin.

Still going for that last 5% is why we are pursuing this in the first place, so R-Core xfrmrs it is.

Thanks       JJ


----------



## astrostar59

Clemmaster said:


> @Superdad: I'm having issues with the LPS-1 and Rednet 3.
> 
> The pair had been running fine for a couple weeks. When I returned from travel, the Rednet seemed to have lost power.
> Now, every time I unplug and plug back the DC jack, the RN3 powers up (as indicated by the RJ45 LED) but it doesn't seem stable. The RN3 does not show in the Rednet controller.
> ...



Interesting.I have the Rednet3 and use an internal LPS with an output of %VDC and 1.5 amps. I wonder of the 1.1 amps from yours is at it's limit? i.e. the Rednet needs 1.2 amp more or less?

Here is my unit;


----------



## astrostar59 (May 4, 2017)

here is my unit


----------



## mourip

When I first hooked up my D16 to my HDPlex LPS it was a bit flaky. It would actually turn off on occasion. The culprit turned out to be a less that snug fit between the male DC plug and the DC chassis adapter. I replaced the chassis adapter and now it works perfectly. Just as another data point I also tied the negative LPS leg from the DC chassis adapter to chassis ground.


----------



## Clemmaster

Yes, the chassis DC plug does not play very nicely with my DC cables.
I have a 3A LKS power supply that works just fine, tough.

I will need to troubleshoot a bit more.


----------



## johnjen (May 4, 2017)

I assume that you are using a 'barrel' connector as your DC plug and receptacle.

While these can be easy, useful and convenient, it is all to easy to mis-match the plug to the receptacle which results in a current limiting connection, aka a *CP* (Choke Point).

As a result I rarely use them even when I can properly match them together.
Instead I tend to use XLR connectors which electrically makes a much more secure, robust and reliable connection.

Just a thought.

JJ


----------



## mourip (May 4, 2017)

I just ordered two of these to try with my two D16s. 9mm with 4 pins. I will replace my 2.1mm barrel connectors/sockets.

Looks much more secure.

Link:    4 pin 9mm Aviation XLR Connector Cable self locking plug military XS9 socket


----------



## johnjen

Yeah those'll work MUCH better than barrel connectors.

JJ


----------



## Slater

I came across this article today and thought it would be interesting to share:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy


----------



## johnjen

slaterlovesspam said:


> I came across this article today and thought it would be interesting to share:
> 
> https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy


I've seen that article before and feel it is rather self serving.

In my experience every time I have substituted a LPS for a stock SMPS, there has been a considerable step up in SQ, without exception, regardless of what type of gear it is.
However these swaps have all been on digital gear, where the use of SMPS *should* have little to no effect.

And I know of no analog gear (other than benchmark) that uses SMPS as a stock component.
I figure this is for a reason.

And from my own measurements (which I have posted earlier in this thread), SMPS's ARE noisy and they contaminate the ground plane which spreads to other gear thru their common connection.

And if I were to hypothesize why they are trying to legitimize the use of SMPS's in analog gear, it would be to lower the cost of the gear to make it more competitive. 
I figure this effort is due to the general lowering of the cost of the gear from the chinese as well as what Schiit offers, among others.

IOW I ain't buy'n it, both literally and theoretically. 

JJ


----------



## Slater

I figured as much.

What made my Spidey sense tingle is where they said that SMPS DO add noise, but theirs are "specifically optimized for audio applications". Which I suspect is accomplished by adding $1 worth of CRC filtering components.


----------



## johnjen

To me, the thing is, filtering out noise is no where as effective as not generating it in the first place.
And filtering it means sending it to ground, which just raises it's noise floor all the more.

This isn't a 'good' thing in my book, as my efforts at ridding my system of them has shown me.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (May 17, 2017)

Status Report…
Ok so NOW my system is in the middle of blossom action big time.
Finally…

And what it took was adding that last bit of silver AES cable with the tweako Focus 1 xlr connectors, after adding the 2nd Mutec 3+USB reclocker.

And the SQ of the entire system is not at a peak yet as the *tLFF* has not reached near it's previous best yet (let alone exceeded it).

But my head is on a swivel and my body is moving in counterpoint to my head, with my feet dancing under my desk.
And it doesn't matter what music I play, it's all grabbing my undivided attention and running away, with me in tow.
The Blue Danube along with many other lively tunes from the Strauss family are especially captivating, especially when they fire off those shotguns and other artillery…   ;D

And NOW!
*HDSuperDuperGlue *
ALL New & Improved
and
Better Than Ever…  

JJ


----------



## somestranger26

I modded my Mutec and Rednet to use a linear power supply, but I am having an issue. It seems that if I leave the Mutec on for about a day then I start getting popping and crackling noises in the sound. I have to leave the unit off for a while to "cool down" for the popping and crackling to go away (simply restarting it doesn't fix it). 

I went back to the SMPS for now, and I haven't noticed this issue no matter how long I leave it on. I did not desolder the SMPS, but I'm hoping I can avoid that. 

Any idea how to troubleshoot?


----------



## johnjen

Did you measure the voltage from your LPS?
Both initially and after several hours then when the popping starts?
That would be the 1st thing I'd check.

JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> Did you measure the voltage from your LPS?
> Both initially and after several hours then when the popping starts?
> That would be the 1st thing I'd check.
> 
> JJ



+1

If the voltage is too high you might be asking any onboard regulators to dump to much voltage as heat.


----------



## somestranger26

johnjen said:


> Did you measure the voltage from your LPS?
> Both initially and after several hours then when the popping starts?
> That would be the 1st thing I'd check.
> 
> JJ



I did measure the voltage at approximately 6.3V and tried turning it down to 6.15V like you said you measured the SMPS output at. I thought that fixed it but then it came back again. 

I will leave it on for a day and check the voltage again after the popping starts. Do you think it is OK to turn the voltage lower than 6.15V? Someone had said when they were mistakenly running it at 5V that it sounded off.


----------



## johnjen

Crank it down to 5.8 to 5.9 volts and see what happens.
That was the voltage that my 3+usb started to work properly.
And yeah I too measured the SMPS output voltage at ≈ 6.2 volts but I had to reduce it to get it to latch onto the AES signal.

I finally did get a reply to my inquiries from Mutec and asked them what the 'acceptable' voltage range is for the 3+ and the 3+USB.
They have yet to answer me back.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And in other audio related stuff, I built another dual channel LPS dedicated to running the 2 Mutec 3+'s in my chain.
This one has dual 6Vac windings that feed the dual channel regulator board in a clam shell case that is physically smaller and easier to work on.

This unit makes much less heat so I don't need a fan to help cool it down, and the total cost was ≈$100.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

somestranger26 said:


> I did measure the voltage at approximately 6.3V and tried turning it down to 6.15V like you said you measured the SMPS output at. I thought that fixed it but then it came back again.
> 
> I will leave it on for a day and check the voltage again after the popping starts. Do you think it is OK to turn the voltage lower than 6.15V? Someone had said when they were mistakenly running it at 5V that it sounded off.


One last point.

Leaving the SMPS in the circuit may be the source of the noise and problem.
Since Mutec recommended it not be connected with another power source feeding their units as it's secondary would be active with the power from the LPS.
As such it might be overheating or behaving badly etc, causing your problems.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy (May 20, 2017)

somestranger26 said:


> I did measure the voltage at approximately 6.3V and tried turning it down to 6.15V like you said you measured the SMPS output at. I thought that fixed it but then it came back again.
> 
> I will leave it on for a day and check the voltage again after the popping starts. Do you think it is OK to turn the voltage lower than 6.15V? Someone had said when they were mistakenly running it at 5V that it sounded off.



That was me who said that and you had it the other way around.
I had the Mutec3+ (non-usb version) running at 6.3v and it did sounded off to me.

You can safely run the Mutec3+ (usb version) down to 5v. I have 2 in the chain and they both run perfectly at 5v each. Did not experience any popping noises ever.
If you are not using usb at all, you can remove that usb board out and it will sound better. at least it did IME.


----------



## johnjen (May 22, 2017)

So most know that we got a puppy a few months back.
He is now 7.5 months old, is still in full puppy brain mode and is letting everyone know just what he expects when they enter his sphere of awareness.
He weighs 70lbs is tall and lanky but doesn't know it, yet.
This lack of awareness is decidedly a mixed blessing.

And as I mentioned previously he is smart, the smartest dog I have ever interacted with.

He figures crap out all by himself and then teaches it to our choc lab so they both know an ever expanding bag of tricks.
Now most would like to claim that their dog is smart, as sort of a badge of pride or being special etc.

But in our case it not a matter of pride but more like that of lamentation, as in 'oh schiit' what's he figured out now…

His latest is he wants to be into audio and so to get started he decided to 'familiarize' himself with a favored tool I recently acquired.
That being my XLR cleaner brush set with 5 different sized brushes to clean the female XLR contacts.

I'd show you what his intense interest and 'can do' attitude has yielded, but I can't upload a pic.
But all of the bristles are now full of dog hair, are bent at odd angles, but only 4 brushes, remain.
We still haven't found the 5th brush.
Maybe someday it'll show up, somewhere.

I'm just glad no one makes doggy headphones and that he doesn't know that it could be a possibility for him, or we'd in deep do-do.
I mean once you get the audio bug there is no leaving it behind and pretending you can live without it, right?

Oh and did I mention that his Chesapeake nature has surfaced, big time?

For those who know about Chesapeake's and their ability to concentrate their focus upon objects of desire, especially food like objects, this trait becomes more intense as they grow up.

Another Ches'e trait is drool.
And sure lots of dogs drool, especially food motivated dogs, but they usually don't leave a pool of drool behind.
But that's just one type of drool.
Type 2 drool are these long, hanging, swinging, stick to objects they touch, ropes of drool.

Now most would think this topic is a bit gross, but after a while it becomes a fascinating question of how can they do that?
I mean they are LONG, and of course MR Bear cares not for where they swing and touch, nor what they wrap themselves around.
But WE do…

This is where training comes into the picture and MR Bear is a quick learner, however since he is a Ches'e he then decides when, or if, to actually respond to the (as he sees it, I'm sure) Request for Action, or not.
Fortunately he IS food motivated so he can be sufficiently motivated but only as long as you actually have treats, in hand.
Which he will also be motivated to want to help you with, as in take them off your hands, literally.

But enough of 'Tails of the Dog' for now.
I need to go and order another set of brushes…

JJ

EDIT I CAN upload pics I just gotta use the back door to do it.


----------



## johnjen

Muziqboy said:


> snip
> If you are not using usb at all, you can remove that usb board out and it will sound better. at least it did IME.


Yeah I removed my USB daughter board as well and used the hole it left in the back panel to get the LPS power cable into the unit.

And I figured that by not powering up the USB transceiver chip in the first place, the unit would generate less noise as well.
Unless Mutec only powers that chip up when the usb input is selected, but I doubt that's how it operates.

JJ


----------



## gefski

Staying on topic, here's Baxter and Chloe unfriending each other.


----------



## somestranger26

johnjen said:


> Crank it down to 5.8 to 5.9 volts and see what happens.
> That was the voltage that my 3+usb started to work properly.
> And yeah I too measured the SMPS output voltage at ≈ 6.2 volts but I had to reduce it to get it to latch onto the AES signal.
> 
> ...



I turned it down to 5.89V which is as low as it will let me. I tried turning the screw on the potentiometer another 15 rotations and it won't go any lower. *head scratch* my previous experience with adjusting these Chinese LPSes was that they could be adjusted pretty broadly. Noise is still there although seems better. 

Thinking about removing the SMPS now. I recall you saying it was non-trivial to remove it, would it also be difficult to put back if it doesn't fix the problem? 



Muziqboy said:


> That was me who said that and you had it the other way around.
> I had the Mutec3+ (non-usb version) running at 6.3v and it did sounded off to me.
> 
> You can safely run the Mutec3+ (usb version) down to 5v. I have 2 in the chain and they both run perfectly at 5v each. Did not experience any popping noises ever.
> If you are not using usb at all, you can remove that usb board out and it will sound better. at least it did IME.



I did remove the USB board already. I have another LPS set to 5V that I could try to see if that makes any difference.


----------



## johnjen

somestranger26 said:


> I turned it down to 5.89V which is as low as it will let me. I tried turning the screw on the potentiometer another 15 rotations and it won't go any lower. *head scratch* my previous experience with adjusting these Chinese LPSes was that they could be adjusted pretty broadly. Noise is still there although seems better.
> 
> *That is odd that you can't adjust the voltage any lower.*
> 
> ...


*I'd try using this approach 1st to see if the noises and problems are 'fixed' by using an even lower supply voltage.*
*But it may just be the SMPS is 'semi-operating' and adding the noise and problems you are experiencing, in which case removal is the only way to tell if this is the source of your problem.*


*JJ*


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## johnjen (May 22, 2017)

gefski said:


> Staying on topic, here's Baxter and Chloe unfriending each other.


Our 2 dogs use a different approach.

Mr Bear wants to muscle in on the bed where Punkin has laid down, so she lets him and then just gets up and moves.
Much like if she has a toy, Mr Bear simply MUST possess it, so she lets him take it so that he leaves her alone.

Puppies are like that and she will choose objects that she just knows he can't resist.
Clever girl.

JJ


----------



## rellik

Obvi! You know you thought he was a man but he only was a muffin! You shure he just didn't need some food?.... .... .. . .. .. .. .


----------



## rellik (May 22, 2017)

johnjen said:


> *I'd try using this approach 1st to see if the noises and problems are 'fixed' by using an even lower supply voltage.
> But it may just be the SMPS is 'semi-operating' and adding the noise and problems you are experiencing, in which case removal is the only way to tell if this is the source of your problem.*
> 
> 
> *JJ*



Nah dude, you just couldn't hear the noise of the SPST relay switching, now you can. Also it is fast enough to try and lock rather than just giving up. At least it isn't bouncing, catch my drift eh eh )
The clicking is to make sure the amp isn't you know putting out DC offset when there is no music. A solid blank is alright but a floating DAC Will get broken and you know have DC offset...AKA why include a transistor switch rather than a nice um big switch?

Yeah, back to topic, most definitely not a paintball gun. Digital circuitry needs korrect operating voltage to function. Slightly, and I mean ever so slightly reducing it will just mean it will have to find that additional voltage from somewhere else AKA adding a RLC loop aka a tone and a current loop for external noise to be picked up, like a wireless antenna.


----------



## johnjen

So now that I figured out how to post pics (D'Oh) here's one of our young miscreant his own bad self.



 


And he hasn't stopped growing yet.

JJ


----------



## rellik

Hey, hey Twhispers in ear), is that your actual Dog?

Please take a closer look.


----------



## johnjen

rellik said:


> Hey, hey Twhispers in ear), is that your actual Dog?
> 
> Please take a closer look.


I'm not sure I follow what you mean…
Yes that is our dog, and take a closer look at what?

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So over the past few days, the SQ has moved into the *HE* zone.
*HE* is Hear Everything, 
as in all sources of acoustic energy are tightly bound to their parent 'voice'.

And as I posted in the AOIP thread, *HE* can be described thusly…
"This is a degree of transparency where every sound source (I call them '*voices*') are homogeneous unto themselves and are fully recognizable as such.
It's like there is no guesswork as to what I'm hearing, no gaps or confusion in following any single 'voice' be it lyrics or the full 'harmonic structure' of an instrument.
Not to mention the whole of the acoustic impression as it is heard.

IOW there is less mental effort required while listening, less 'strain' trying to figure out, or 'reconstruct' the sum total of the acoustic presentation, as a whole.
There is just the flow of the music as it continues to unfold."

And the SubSonic Bass has become well coupled with articulation and is tight and refined and extended well into the SubSonic region, but also extends upward into the upper midrange as well.
This is what I first heard when I replaced the SMPS with a LPS in my RN3.
It has taken this long for it to fully return, along with all of the other refinements (800 mods, metallurgy, LPS mods etc.) that my entire system can now 'bring to the party' when fully 'settled in'.

It isn't 'spectacular' as in hit you over the head with wowy zowie or dynamic impacts that crush your head…
Well, unless the music includes those acoustic aspects that is, like cannon shots or other artillery.  
But the sense of being IN the music, the REALNESS factor, the getting sucked INTO the music, has taken a mother may I step up for sure.

Case in point, for those who have been to one of our Seattle meets and heard Musiqboys system, one of my favorite demo tracks is Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man by Eiji Oue and the Minnesota Orchestra on the Reference Recording label.
They light up the entire room with some impressive honk'n big drum and gong whacks, thruout the piece.
But the trumpets and french horns and trombones are equally as memorable in their harmonic richness as well.

And a sure sign I'm heading for a new peak is that the *tLFF* has been heading back to its lowest (best) range as well.
When this happens its like the overall degree of focus goes very deep and gets very sharp.
Like when a lens is stopped way down and the depth of field gets very broad and sharp, everywhere.

Put another way, the morié pattern (lack of precise focus) imposed by the entire playback system is minimized as the signal that is generated and then converted into acoustic energy is altered to less and less of a degree.

That is *HE*.

JJ


----------



## mourip

Muziqboy said:


> If you are not using usb at all, you can remove that usb board out and it will sound better. at least it did IME.



+1.

 I pulled my USB board out and thought that it made a positive difference plus it should drop the current requirement a bit.


----------



## johnjen

I have to wonder how much of the perceived improvement is just due to having the USB transceiver/decoder chipset not generating noise because it isn't even in the circuit, let alone pulling power.
Sorta like it being powered on but not being used, only more so.

Ever since I've experienced what happens when SMPS's are removed from anything resembling our audio systems, digital circuits have become suspect. 

Which when you think about it is oxymoronic because the means to get the digital files out of the digital computer and passed onto the digital/analog converter involves even more digital circuits, and adding even more digital circuits sometimes improves the SQ even further.

But then digital was supposed to be perfect from the get go, and look how far we've come since then.

Paradoxes-R-US…

JJ


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## rellik (May 25, 2017)

IMO, CD's and HDCD's are good digital sources. The rest suffer from error compensated repeated coding schemes aka higher digital frequencies. DSD vs PCM or whatever.

PCM is nice in terms of it is pretty much taking the 90 degree transform (rotation) of the amplitide and cross corolatting it (windowed (integral length) integrated multiplication) with time. DSD is just a combed version of PCM, modulating to higher frequency. I dont know if DSD allows for duty cycle changes aka different square wave widths.

This can also yield an uneven form of jitter hence the latest DAC's having I/O for external word clock preferably a oven controlled servo locked rubidium clock. Those only improve in terms of timing after they have been left running for quite a while though...

Its also kinda hard to use the really fun emphasis and de-emphasis functions on DAC's in the analog realm with over sampling DAC's. The Anti-Aliasing filter and de-emphasis filters gets swamped. It has to be done in the digital domain. Emphasis and de-emphasis compensate for ringing at certain bandwidths. Most digital media uses some form of it. How well the DAC can accomplish it is one of the major definers of DAC sound quality.

Kinda similar to RIAA curve or Dolby for casette tapes.

Dual DAC means the DAC has an individual DAC for left/right channel rather than a microlithography switch/optoswitch similar to DLP TV's or transistor. The problem with dual dac is standing wave frequency burnouts in the caps. AKA gotta give it a freq sweep ocasionally.


----------



## johnjen (May 31, 2017)

So my curiosity got the better of me…
Again,
Still…

And this tweak required using the advice from a friend of mine, namely, "closed eye".

I ordered 3 Synergistic fuses, the latest and greatest Black version.
These suckers are $120 EACH, and I was really beginning to question my own sanity for even considering spending this kind of CRAZY $$$ for a fuse, let alone 3 of them.
You know them're those liddel round safety thing-a-mabobs that are meant to self sacrifice if things downstream from them go sideways.

But I figured I'd take one for the team and finally managed to convince myself to mash down on that 'place order' button, but only after closing my eyes.

They showed up yesterday,
I installed them today,
I'm listening to my system now with ≈ 2hrs on the clock.

uh, err, ummmmm…

I had The Toronto Chamber Orchestra, The Pachelbel Canon and Other Digital Delights CD in the cue, so I started to listen to the harpsichord on the "The Harmonious Blacksmith" track.
Uh, Er, Ummmmm…

For those who are familiar with the harpsichord, it is rather a 'dense' (harmonically) and 'rich' instrument.
So much so, it usually sounds like all of the strings are mushed together where all of the resonances of each string merge together and makes for an indistinct 'ball of sound'.

UH, ERR, UMMMMM…
All of a sudden harpsichords are really intriguing and each string can be heard individually.

But WAIT, There's MOAR…  

The sounstage has become more focused (in 3d) and expansive, at the same time.
Bass has even more immediate impact and focus along with the tail end of it's resonant nature coming into sharper focus, (think of how the acoustic space dissipates the low frequency impact energy of a big drum for instance), where I can now distinctly hear these resonances morph, as the room resonances interact with that energy.

The mids and top end are more detailed, focused, delineated etc.
And again the truism, 'you don't really know you have a veil UNTIL it's been removed', applies here.
And this only after ≈2hrs.
And both The Rok and Jggy were shutdown so they (especially the Jggy) will need at least a day or 2 to fully recover.

I figure later tonight I'll be in for another *HDSuperDuperGlue* session, which will make for a bleary eye'd tomorrow.

Overall, at least thus far, I'd say that these SR Black fuses contribute much the same sort of improvements that the Jggy brings to the party.
Specifically, a sense of being up close and personal (sitting in your lap type of directness), and/or being in the middle of the recording, and being able to hear far deeper INTO the acoustic space, which I for one, relish.

IOW, Being IN the music all the moar…

I don't believe that these fuses will be going back within their 30day free trial period.

JJ
ps for those who just might be tempted to try these fuses but might want a more palatable plunge (less $$) the SR Reds are on sale for %50 off (≈$45 each) right now at Parts Connexion.
It looks like a closeout/discontinue this version of their fuse line.
They might go quick, too.
Just a heads up.


----------



## somestranger26

No luck getting the Mutec to stop clicking and popping. Hopefully I can get the SMPS back in, otherwise it's toast. 

Things I tried:
-5V, 5.9V, and 6.3V power supply
-With or without earth ground connected (on either end of the connection)
-Removed SMPS
-Soldered wires rather than using clips
-BNC in instead of AES


----------



## johnjen (Jun 6, 2017)

So if memory serves, your 3+ works without clicking and popping while using the stock SMPS but not on 2-3 different LPS's?

That is baazarrrr.

And rather than toss it, consider contacting Mutec to see what repair services they offer.
Yeah it's gunna be even more $$ but they might just step up and help you out.
Of course they may just stick to the company line and leave you hanging as well.
Still it might be worth investigating, just to know for certain, in either case.

But that sucks for sure.

And I do have 2 SMPS's from my pair of 3+'s (1-USB, 1-non USB version) that are intact if that would help.

edit…
What gauge wire runs from the LPS to the 3+, is it shielded, and how long is it?

JJ


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## somestranger26

I don't remember what gauge it is, but should be plenty (I got it from golfnutz). It's not shielded once it goes into the Mutec. Length is only 3 feet. I guess that's about the only thing I haven't tried - rerouting the wires or shielding them, but it only happens after the device has been on for a few hours so I doubt that's the issue. 

I have the SMPS, it's just a matter of whether I can remount it. The PCB is a bit f-ed up where I was desoldering it (solder vacuum was not very effective), and then I accidentally ripped off the trace to the power LED when desoldering one of the wires (accidentally swapped the polarity) and the solder hadn't melted quite enough to move it, derp. Pretty frustrating situation but the Ethereum rally will pay for it if I have to "write it off".


----------



## johnjen

I just heard from Mutec about the supply voltage limits.
They say these 3+'s have a 6Vdc upper limit and no less than 5Vdc.
They also say "You should power the MC-3+ mainboard with max. 6V - NOT more! Otherwise the voltage regulators may get broken.".

So could you adjust the voltage to say 5.5Vdc ±0.3Vdc and try it again?
You mentioned 5, and 5.9 and 6.3.
I'm thinking that your 5Vdc may be to low and the others are to high.
So see if that, right in that 5.5Vdc sweet spot, works.

Most LPS's do have the ability to 'trim' the output voltage, so hopefully between the LPS's you have on hand you can dial one of them in at 5.5Vdc

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And on another note.

I now have a more or less set of stock 800's with 2 cables that I can compare to my heavily modded 800's.
One cable is a stock cable cut down to 5' and terminated in a 4-pin XLR.
And the other is a Audio Sensibility Impact cable that has been cryo treated, with rhodium coated 800 connectors and soon to have a rhodium 4-pin XLR connector.

This will allow me to chart the differences as I hear them as I add more of the mods to the 'new kid on the block'.
I'll probably leave the wires with those tiny tiny connectors intact for a while.
But man are those contacts itty bitty.
I can see where simply hardwiring even using these very small gauge wires, will help, let alone using larger gauge wiring which is how my original 800's are wired.

But first I'm gunna play with my latest versions of my VibManagement tweak.
Just to see what contributions it makes all by itself, while keeping these 800's close to stock.

JJ


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## Golfnutz (Jun 6, 2017)

somestranger26 said:


> I don't remember what gauge it is, but should be plenty (I got it from golfnutz). It's not shielded once it goes into the Mutec. Length is only 3 feet. I guess that's about the only thing I haven't tried - rerouting the wires or shielding them, but it only happens after the device has been on for a few hours so I doubt that's the issue.
> 
> I have the SMPS, it's just a matter of whether I can remount it. The PCB is a bit f-ed up where I was desoldering it (solder vacuum was not very effective), and then I accidentally ripped off the trace to the power LED when desoldering one of the wires (accidentally swapped the polarity) and the solder hadn't melted quite enough to move it, derp. Pretty frustrating situation but the Ethereum rally will pay for it if I have to "write it off".



It's 18ga wire inside LPS right through to the Mutec.

Really sorry to see you're having all these issues with the Mutec.  I don't think Mourip removed his SMPS, and he hasn't posted any problems like this (that I've read).

Did you try clipping those 2 connectors from SMPS to PCB first? That's what I would have tried before removing the entire SMPS. I think if you still got the pops and clicks at that point, I wouldn't have bothered removing it.

I'm guessing you used your Rednet 5vdc LPS on the Mutec already without any success, so as JJ suggested, you're probably better off dealing with Mutec directly.

I had to look it up since I didn't know what "Ethereum rally" was.

Ethereum hits another record high, marking a 2,800% rally this year

Glad something is going your way!


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## johnjen (Jun 8, 2017)

So in keeping with the 'too much is never enough' theme, and owing to the fact that when the SMPS's are removed from the 3+'s, it also removes any local reservoir (filter caps) for the +5Vdc that feeds these units.
So, I added a 8µF (100V), and 0.01µF (400V) as a bypass, to both of my 3+'s at the input to the mainboard.
I also wired the back panel switch into the +5Vdc feed so I now have separate local on/off control for each unit.

And yeah I did have to drill a hole in the 3+ (non USB version) to feed the 5Vdc into the case.
And in the 3+ USB version, I removed the USB board and in so doing it left a hole on the back panel to feed the wire into the case, so no drilling required.




 

Yeah, I'm having some fun now.

Next up is adding bypass caps to the RN3 at the mainboard as well.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*HE* Hear Everything leads to *Authenticity*
And *Authenticity* is a close relative to *REALNESS* in that they share the sonic traits of presenting the degree of believability of each ‘voice’ and its relationship to it’s acoustical space.

So, *HE* leads to *Authenticity*/*Realness*, which in turn leads to, “It Doesn’t Matter Anymore”, (*IDMA*), as it’s now all about listening and experiencing, not analyzing nor listening from the mind.  Instead it’s hearing with our heart and a portion of our head takes a back seat to the experience.
But the combined hearing with our heart along with optimizing our heads aural input and thruput yields *IDMA*.
Does this mean I could quit tweaking?  Oh YES!

But realistically it probably won’t happen, mostly because I’m down to the short hairs, the nickel and dime mods which are probably the most fun of all the hands on tweaking I enjoy doing.  And of course it’s in my blood so to speak.

And I figure there are a bunch of folks that are experiencing this sort of SQ, one that demands our immediate and ongoing attention to their systems these days.

So the present acoustic presentation is compelling enough that my ability to even want to perform another round of experiments has fallen off considerably as the music demands my full and undivided attention.
But it's also the siren song of temptation too, since it can lead to near sleepless nights as a consequence.
You know it was another late one when the obvious hints of sunrise greet you when you open your eyes, usually at the start of a new album.
Like when I first wrote this and again tonight as well.

And it doesn’t seem to matter what music is being listened to either, be it the very best all the way to even the most mediocre of albums, they all have this strange attractor quality.  Even the old Rolling Stones tracks become intriguing and compelling as you hear the master gain come up and the hiss and noise rises followed shortly there after by the music beginning and hearing either the board overloading or an impedance mismatch resulting in various kinds of distortion.  

But the killer tracks are so amazing and there seems to be so many more of them, now, as well.

Fun times indeed.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I completed the latest round of mods to my RN3.
It now has 0.01µF bypass caps on the +5Vdc that feeds the mainboard.



 

I also updated the fuse I had added to protect this LPS, to a Synergistic Research Red fuse  (they were on sale).

Just another small step for audiokind…

JJ


----------



## jelt2359

For those who have modded the mutec 3+ USB, can it take a 7V power supply? Or just 6.3v?


----------



## jabbr

jelt2359 said:


> For those who have modded the mutec 3+ USB, can it take a 7V power supply? Or just 6.3v?




https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-76#post-13531120


----------



## jelt2359

jabbr said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-76#post-13531120



Thanks!! Oops. I have been using the LPS-1 at 7v.


----------



## johnjen (Jun 20, 2017)

Perspectives and Techniques on ‘tuning’ an audio playback system.

I tune my system NOT to fix acoustic problems but to improve SQ.
This is a subtle difference that ultimately makes a significant cumulative difference in the long run.
IOW the tweaks I make aren’t meant to compensate for deficiencies but to mitigate choke points.
Put another way…
By removing technical, electrical and electronic limitations that exist in the entire system, what can be sometimes described as glaring deficiencies are removed, or at least reduced, and not simply patched.
This is as much a perspective on What is being tweaked, as well as Why.
Sorta like how you approach improving your system.
Is the glass half empty/half full?
Are you fixing a problem or making the system better?

This leads to a concurrent and consequential thought.
Who and Why do some experiment with our audio systems?
This is a rarely asked question with no simple answer and certainly a no consensus end result.
It is a rare mix of overall technical understanding and abilities, materials sciences, acoustics, electronics and electrical expertise, among many other talents, all in an effort to engage us with a whole other realm (Music and all that is involved with this entire topic).

To that end I use the process detailed below to ‘evaluate’ and refine the structure of what areas of the system to work on next, based upon all previous experiments and knowledge gained therefrom.

1.  Is there something to want or desire?
For example a new kid on the block (e.g. AOIP) pops up on the scene is it something that answers a need, or is curiosity alone enough to want to pursue the avenue of experimentation?

2.  What (as in defined or at least adequately described) is wanted or desired
Are there specific technical or functional enhancements that can be explored and what would be considered as yielding ‘Better’?

3.  How to achieve  -  plan of action and budget
Details concerning ‘resource allocation’ (what , when, how much…)
3b.  What h/w and/or s/w solutions exist.
Research of gear, solutions, factors involving the integration into the existing system, these endeavors are, or at least can be, a big portion of the fun.

4.  Implementation of $ and integration into the rest of system/setup interface
This entails the procurement and physical tasks required to set it all up and plug it all in, then get it all to work.

5.  Noticed changes - what outcome was achieved?
This is where the feedback loop of experience kicks in, where implementing further refinements to the basic (proof of performance) implementation, allows for a test for scaleability and adds to the overall evaluation of this avenue of experimentation.

What was learned usually can lead to additional ideas for further refinement and experimentation.
And if the results do contribute to an improvement in overall SQ (ie. it’s a keeper) it can also be combined with other ‘related’ tweaks as a ‘standard’ refinement.

Also note, if any step is missing or fails to complete, the process halts at that point.

These techniques and evaluatory steps have proven themselves to me over time and the cumulative results tend to reinforce each other.
And sometimes in unexpected ways with the total being far greater than the mere sum of the new individual tweaks.

This series of techniques has been applied to several completely different areas of interest and with similar end results.

JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> Perspectives and Techniques on ‘tuning’ an audio playback system.
> 
> I tune my system NOT to fix acoustic problems but to improve SQ.
> This is a subtle difference that ultimately makes a significant cumulative difference in the long run.
> ...



Thanks for posting your personal outlook on tweaking. You are right. It is seldom discussed as a topic on its own.

I did find myself wondering what prompted "_Is the glass half empty/half full? Are you fixing a problem or making the system better?" _Where you addressing the previous posts of others?

The way I look at it all changes that we make to our system are made in the hope of improving sound quality and meant for promoting our personal enjoyment. Otherwise what would be the point? Every system has limitations, "choke points" as you describe them. Some we make ourselves due to a lack of understanding of our equipment and how it works and interacts, some are due to limitations built into our equipment as a product of being built to a certain price point. It seems to me that system building will always be a bit like cooking. It involves science and art. Success will always be determined by our own personal and subjective satisfaction with the outcome. It seems to me that doing DIY comes from either a desire to learn, a form of self-enabling, or else a way of getting personally satisfying sound on a limited budget. I also think that spending a lot of money does not ensure good sound unless you understand system interaction ...so learning always needs to be involved.

As an aside. In reading other forums it always amazes me how much contention develops between the self proclaimed objectivists and those who are described by them as subjectivists. At the end of the day all that matters is that one is satisfied with the sound one is getting.


----------



## johnjen

mourip said:


> Thanks for posting your personal outlook on tweaking. You are right. It is seldom discussed as a topic on its own.
> 
> _*Yeah this is a highly individualistic question/answer, which is why I presented it in this way.*_
> 
> ...


_*
Earlier in this thread I wrote a post about this dichotomy of the subjectivists vs the objectivists.
My point was that it will always come down to what do you like 'Better', which is a purely subjective orientation.
Now what makes up the criteria that constitutes 'Better' is also purely subjective as well, even though one may use an objective means of quantifying those 'preferences'. 
It will always boil down to what is 'Better', based upon each one's subjective preferences.
And in all actuality we need both sides of this dichotomy TOGETHER, not at logger heads against each other.

That is if the goal is to achieve the best we are able.

JJ*_


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## johnjen (Jul 22, 2017)

So here it's been a month since my last post and there is news to report.

The system continues to push that 100% ceiling ever higher, and even when the system isn't operating at peak SQ the HDSuperDuperGlue effect is still grabbing me and not letting go.
The last several nights I have seen the early dawn rise at 5am.

And finally after 1Khrs the system peaked and set new all time 100% SQ levels.

But then BigPoppa said, again, Hey JJ, ya gotta try this, it REALLY helped…
And remember his ac power delivery is about as opposite from mine as you can get.
His power distribution is completely ungrounded and old, as in decrepit.
While mine is a dedicated short run that has been dialed in.

So as a consequence BigPoppa and I are 'exploring' using a Chinese made torroidal based 500VA isolation transformers.
Its $125 (+$60 shipping), fairly compact and has an on/off switch, built in fuse, and 2 duplex receptacles.

And of course since it's me, it didn't stay 'stock' very long.
Thus far I've added a WAQy chip to the fuse and played around with using several different short ac power cables to feed it.
So far I like my gen-4 DIY cable the best, even over shorter larger gauge 'stubby' cables.

That is until I re-configured my direct ac run from my breaker panel.
A short while back I added a short piece of 10gauge romex to the end of my dedicated run and soldered it to the pre-existing romex (12gauge).
Originally I had terminated it with 2 more duplex receptacles in a box for additional gear to plug in.

So I re-terminated that 10gauge romex run into an IEC connector which then plugs only into the Iso-Xfrmr.
It delivers 1.09/1.75 KA to my iso-xfrmr (according to my ASCC tester).
Yes that's 1,090/1,750 Amps (depending upon if the ground wire is used in the test).
These numbers are among the best I have measured in my system.

The fuse, and I'll be replacing (at least) one of the duplex receptacles, along with another WAQy chip, will be upgraded before to long as well.

Thus far I can confirm Musiqboys observations when he added his Iso-Xfrmrs to his system.
More impact and 'slam', better mid range definition and resolution, added tinkle (a technical term if ever there was one) on top, and yet another 'veil' has been lifted.
And I suspect all of these contributions to become more pronounced as I continue to mod this unit.
Oh, and my body simply can't stay still, even on speakers.  HB&W and T3 big time…

So far I'm only using the Iso-Xfrmr to power my amp and dac, while the rest of the digital gear is being fed by the dedicated audio ac power feed.
This provides an added degree of isolation between the digital gear and the amp and dac, except for the ground connection.
I will probably reverse this just to see if the digital gear will respond to this balanced power delivery as well.

I've even tweaked the shape of the wires used in connecting to the IEC connector for maximal contact patch.
And there is another related tweak inbound as well, along these same lines.

This series of experiments has led to some additional insights that I'll write up and post after I gather a few more observations.

But the SQ is just amazing, no matter if it's peaked or not.
*IDMA * (It Doesn’t Matter Anymore) continues to be amazing as the non peak SQ continues to rise.
But when it peaks,
well it's one of those things that really is only understood from direct experience,
as in words just fail to convey the experience.

JJ


----------



## astrostar59

Hi John
I agree. I got a PS Audio P10 2 years back and never looked back. Before I got it I noticed I preferred the sound of my system in the early hours, about 1am-2am. I eventually realised it was mains noise from heavier use in my district during the day, and also stuff on in my house or block such as AC, Hairdryer, Power Tools, Wash Machines. The P10 regenerates the AC from AC - DC - AC. It is about 75% efficient, so not save the planet, but I only need 20% of it's capacity most of the time.

Noise again John, it is like the SMPS thing we went through on the Rednet and LPS's. It seems to me the audio manufacturers know this stuff, but don't tell us.... because they don't make a regenerator.


----------



## Golfnutz

"So I re-terminated that 10gauge romex run into an IEC connector which then plugs only into the Iso-Xfrmr.
It delivers 1.09/1.75 KA to my iso-xfrmr (according to my ASCC tester).
Yes that's 1,090/1,750 *Amps* (depending upon if the ground wire is used in the test)."

JJ, I hope you mean KVA (as in 1750 watts).

Like you, I have a 10gauge wire direct from the panel into my listening room, connected via Hubble twist lock. The iso comes standard with the Hubble twist lock and Hubble receptacle - medical grade  (2.4kva/20A). I also have another iso for my digital equipment in the back room (1.5kva/15A), with Hubble IEC and Hubble receptacle plugged directly into panel receptacle, which is also 10gauge and Hubble receptacle (distance of receptacle to panel is less than 6"). Iso's are ECA.

I wouldn't say the differences with and without are night and day, but having them does seem to make my system sound somewhat smoother.


----------



## johnjen

Golfnutz said:


> "So I re-terminated that 10gauge romex run into an IEC connector which then plugs only into the Iso-Xfrmr.
> It delivers 1.09/1.75 KA to my iso-xfrmr (according to my ASCC tester).
> Yes that's 1,090/1,750 *Amps* (depending upon if the ground wire is used in the test)."
> 
> ...


The ASCC tester calculates current.  So those readings are in amps not watts.
But keep in mind that those are peak amps in an 8ms time window as per the ASCC test.
I wrote about this 8ms time window in my posts about fuses and how they are rated.

That 8ms time window is most significant and is tied into our (US) AC mains line frequency.
And granted if your line frequency is 50Hz then that 8ms 'window' becomes 10ms so the potential for even greater peak current exists.
And if you have 220-40 VAC as your primary line voltage (which cuts the amount of current needed by ≈ 1/2 given the same load) these amounts of available peak current become even less critical.

I have even thought of using a Iso-Xfrmr as a step up to 240VAC and modifying the wiring in my amp and dac for this voltage, which would drop the peak current demand by ≈ 1/2 as well.  But performing this series of mods would have 'consequences' some of which could have 'consequences' of their own.

And yeah the sonic results aren't a night and day, OMG slap you upside the head sort a change, but when the system has had lots of *CP's* removed, these sorts of improvements can be heard as VERY meaningful.
More so than one might expect.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

astrostar59 said:


> Hi John
> I agree. I got a PS Audio P10 2 years back and never looked back. Before I got it I noticed I preferred the sound of my system in the early hours, about 1am-2am. I eventually realised it was mains noise from heavier use in my district during the day, and also stuff on in my house or block such as AC, Hairdryer, Power Tools, Wash Machines. The P10 regenerates the AC from AC - DC - AC. It is about 75% efficient, so not save the planet, but I only need 20% of it's capacity most of the time.
> 
> Noise again John, it is like the SMPS thing we went through on the Rednet and LPS's. It seems to me the audio manufacturers know this stuff, but don't tell us.... because they don't make a regenerator.


I too hear 'better' SQ late at night, but some of this is due to the house being quieter both acoustically and electrically, not to mention my mind is also quieter then.

I have wondered about using an AC power regen unit.
And perhaps I might try one at some future point, but the power we have here in the PNW and specifically Seattle is remarkably stable and free from 'noise'.
And my house is ≈ 50' away from a brand new step down transformer on the pole outside.
And my audio system, which is powered by a dedicated line from my panel, is ≈ 35' away, so my 'setup' is nearly ideal in terms of power delivery.

And I have wondered what these regen units can provide in terms of short duration peak current delivery, which seems to be a rather important factor in attaining optimal SQ.

And I do agree that if noise that is created and is present in sufficient quantity in our gear, it does impact the SQ, and by quite a bit.
But our gear generates (especially digital circuits) a fair amount of noise, and I'm thinking this self generated noise has a greater impact on our SQ than much of the external ac power noise that 'comes in on the power line'.  Much of which is taken into account by the input power circuitry of the gear itself (mov's, caps, inductors, even the transformer).

And a regen unit can't really address this gear created noise.
And neither can these Iso-Xfrmrs, but they can help to isolate one group of gear (digital) from another (analog), by using several of them, with the sole exception of the common ground that ties them all together.

Besides all of this fussing with wires and such is grist for the mill of this hobby and can tend to keep us out of trouble…
Well except for our bank accounts and spousal approval anyway…  

JJ


----------



## Golfnutz

OK, now it makes sense (*not the peak amps), but the iso xfmr you bought. I wasn't sure if it you purchased a 500VA or 1.75KVA iso xfmr.

*I'm not sure how relevant peak amps are in this type of application. I would think 500watts on a 15amp circuit would be what most people would be interested in.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah a 500VA Iso-Xfrmr is more than enough for headphone gear.  
In fact I'm using all of ≈ 120VA for my amp and dac.
And if I were to add all of my digital gear, it would only add ≈ 30-45VA, max.

In my research the ability to deliver peak amps seems to be way more significant than mere watts, especially for our low powered HP systems.
For high powered speaker systems it is also important but their 'need' for big current pulses can easily out strip the branch circuits ability to not limit these short high current demands.

I recently obtained a current probe that I will use to measure actual current flow in real time of these current pulses.
I figure that these results will provide some deeper insights into all of this and help put much of this in a better perspective.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

*Balanced VS. Singled Ended Means of Signal/Energy Transfer*

In the mean time while I gather further observations and, as this Iso-Xfrmr continues to settle in (along with 2 more mods to add), this subject has ‘popped’ out as a consequence of these latest experiments.
And this missive presents my answers in more detail, why I prefer the balanced signal/energy transfer mode of operation vs. the single ended approach.

When I first looked into the idea of using an isolation transformer, which creates a true balanced power feed for the gear plugged into it, I wondered about current dump ability, as per the ASCC tests I had performed and posted previously.

These ASCC testers require that both the Neutral and Ground be at ground potential.
And since balanced power uses both the ‘hot’ and ‘neutral’ equally to provide 120VAC to the load, this essentially means the hot is only 1/2 hot and the neutral is also 1/2 hot, as such this arrangement of ac power delivery is not going to work with the ASCC testers I have.
Which would leave me with only being able to listen for results and not be able to measure them.
But I have a plan…  

But this is getting slightly ahead of myself.

There has been an ongoing ‘debate’ about the benefits (or lack of same) of using a Balanced (*Bal*) vs. ‘Single Ended’ (*SE*) means of transferring electrical signals/energy from one device to another.
Not to mention any benefits of the gear itself due to ‘handling’ a balanced signal vs *SE* signals.

‘Normal’ *Bal* circuits are more ‘complicated’ and thus usually require more complex designs which usually equals more parts and thus more cost.  
Whereas *SE* circuits are (or can be) much simpler and so usually less costly.
There are exceptions of course.

So why are *Bal* circuit designs considered ‘better’ by some?
And if they are going to be more expensive to purchase, does this mean it necessarily results in ‘better’ SQ for the entire system, to help justify the added cost?
The short and simple answer is no, not always, not necessarily.
There are some excellent *SE* designs just as there are some excellent Bal based devices.

So why is *Bal* still widely used, and for some, the preferred means of passing the signal along?
For me it comes down to my approach for the entire system, and is not just based upon which device is better at a specific function.

Passing signals/energy in a *Bal* mode has inherent advantages over *SE* methods.
Some of which really don’t apply, such as being able to deal with much longer runs of cable.

But then there is the whole concept of using 2 wires to actively pass the signal along, instead of using one active and one passive wire to perform the same task.
And there are significant differences in the connectors themselves which are used between these 2 methods of signal transfer.

The ‘standard’ *SE* connector is the ubiquitous ‘RCA’ connector which started life as a quick and dirty solution as a means of providing signals for testing and calibrating.  And by my way of thinking they are a poorly designed connector and in multiple ways.  And yes the implementation has improved remarkably over the years, but still the basic design is weak.

The ‘standard’ *Bal* connector is the 3 pin XLR connector.  This is a robust and well designed connector meant for pro audio use, which means it will hold up to abuse and the rigors of prolonged use.

But the biggest single advantage that *Bal* has over *SE* is the use of 2 ‘active’ wires vs, *SE*’s use of one ‘active’ & 1 ‘passive’ wire.

So what do I mean by ‘active’ vs ‘passive’?
Just this, an active wire has EMF ‘behind’ it to ‘drive’/induce the voltage and current thru the wire.
In contrast, a ‘passive’ wire (usually a ground) has no (or Very little) motive force to ‘drive’/induce the voltage and current thru the wire.

The ground while being defined as 0 volts usually has ‘residual’ voltage riding on it, but it has very little EMF to provide a voltage potential to ‘drive’ the voltage and current thru the wire.
In addition ground is itself being modulated from a variety of sources, such as the power supplies themselves, not to mention all other circuits that dump ‘noise’ onto the ground plane.
Which means ground, supposedly at 0 volts, is subject to various other voltage influences, this is a source of variability since *SE* circuits ‘stand on ground’ so to speak.

So in *SE* mode the hot circuit pushes and pulls the signal/energy, while the neutral/ground is used as a reference or sink to ‘ground’ that the voltage from the hot/signal/energy circuit can push and pull against.
It is purely passive and provides no additional ‘power’ to help control the circuit itself, and so only 1/2 of the circuit is available to provide power, and thus its name, Single Ended.
But in *Bal* mode both wires are equally ‘driven’ in a complimentary and synchronized fashion.  Which in turn means that ‘full’ power is available to drive the circuit under load.

An analogy.
Take a piece of string and tie a rubber band to one end and thumbtack it down on a table.
Now grab the other end and pull on the string.
You are both pulling and pushing on the string while the rubber band is passively allowing itself to be pulled and pushed solely based upon what you are doing.
And to take this one step further, lets imagine the thumb tack is stuck to a chunk of wood which can move.
This can induce ‘stray’ or extraneous changes in the accuracy of the input (our arm) and output (where the string is located), which can result in a lack of precision.

Now remove the rubber band and hold both ends of that string and keep it taut.
Now you have 2 hands that can actively pull and push that string with more than just twice the power and control.
There are 2 active sources of power that are balanced with relation to each other, which yields much greater precision and control over the delivery of that signal/energy.

This is the advantage that *Bal* has over *SE* in terms of delivery of that signal/energy.
There is much greater control and potential EMF behind ALL of that control in delivering the signal/energy.

And as I stated above “When I first looked into the idea of using an isolation transformer, which creates a true balanced power feed for the gear plugged into it, I wondered about current dump ability, as per the ASCC tests I had performed and posted about previously.”
And thus far my early observations are that I need not worry about current dumping capability, as it’s not a problem, at all.
And like my analogy of using the string, when the power is delivered with an equal (balanced) amount of power behind both wires, being able to dump current is enhanced.

So by using a simple (and fairly cheap) isolation transformer, the delivery of the ac power is enhanced in such a way that results in changes to the SQ which are very similar to using a dedicated branch circuit.
And when used together the best of both worlds can be realized.

This is a demonstrable demonstration of how, when well implemented, a balanced circuit can make a significant increase in overall SQ.

And to top all of this off, and to help provide some deeper insights into all of this, my plan is to use a rather special contact based current probe with my scope to actually see and measure the current pulses inside the power supply of an amp.

With this capability I’ll be able to compare different power delivery setups directly to each other.
I’ll use a wimpy appliance cord, a DIY reference *G-4* power cable, among other cables on both *SE* and *Bal* ac power feeds.
I’ll also be able to look at different portions of the power supply of the amps demand for power, namely at the primary and secondary of the power transformer.
And I’ll be able to test fuses as well, in fact I have several types of tests I plan on investigating to see if I can observe differences in current draw by changing a single parameter, one at a time.

I’ll use my old Schiit 1st generation Mojo amp as a test bed with shorted inputs and fixed resistive load on the outputs.
I’m figur’n this setup will provide an even better measure of the current behavior and demands than my hand held ASCC tester, albeit with increased resolution comes added complexity.

And all of this testing will be done on a low current draw, test bed amp, that draws ≈ 40 watts at idle.
This set of conditions is probably very close to the edge of even being able to differentiate what subtle changes in cables, fuses, and power delivery schemes can make to the current demand and flow inside the test amp, in the first place.

So hopefully I’ll be able to focus in on some changes that correlate well with the changes in the DUT (device under test) and the draw some conclusions after factoring in the resultant changes to the SQ I hear.

Oh Yeah I’m hav’n some fun now…!!!

JJ


----------



## BIG POPPA

So Yeah I got the Iso transformer. Have a SR Black receptacle on one side, Cardas Rhodium on other. Furutech Rhodium IEC inlet with fuse holder/ with SR Black fuse w WA Qu chip. And Transformer WA Qu chip> My cables are tweaked, gear is tweaked. Always in a state of improvement. 





johnjen said:


> So here it's been a month since my last post and there is news to report.
> 
> The system continues to push that 100% ceiling ever higher, and even when the system isn't operating at peak SQ the HDSuperDuperGlue effect is still grabbing me and not letting go.
> The last several nights I have seen the early dawn rise at 5am.
> ...


----------



## johnjen

So I recently upgraded my Jggy with the self install Gen-5 USB board.
And so far I have ≈ 60 hrs on it and it has proved itself a worthy upgrade.

This is easily the best improvement to USB I have ever heard, and that it cost only $100/$150 is icing on the cake.

It is very close to my tweako RN3 setup, but thus far, is not quite it's equal.
The 'gap' remains about the same in terms of the ∆ between them as the rest of the system is also 'settling in' to other tweaks as well.

IOW as the rest of the system improves so do both the AOIP and USB feeds improve equally, thus the gap between them stays about the same.
At least thus far.
And I figure I'll need to give it all more time to fully stabilize, and until it has done so I'll refrain from making a 'final' evaluation.

But for $100 this is in keeping with the Schiit creed of MOAR 4 less.
Indeed.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I recently upgraded my Jggy with the self install Gen-5 USB board.
> And so far I have ≈ 60 hrs on it and it has proved itself a worthy upgrade.
> 
> This is easily the best improvement to USB I have ever heard, and that it cost only $100/$150 is icing on the cake.
> ...



I'll be interested when you have a feel for the "black backgroundness" of the two. When I went to Dante Ethernet delivery it was the "nothingness" around the entire presentation, and especially micro details that hit me (and still does). That, of course, really led to vital and alive dynamic swings, and "seemed" to make timbre and texture more real, though I didn't feel Yggy's tonality changed in any way.

 Regardless of what we Dante-phools do, it appears Schiit has thrown another wrench into the USB dac competition, raising the bar again.


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## johnjen (Aug 16, 2017)

gefski said:


> I'll be interested when you have a feel for the "black backgroundness" of the two. When I went to Dante Ethernet delivery it was the "nothingness" around the entire presentation, and especially micro details that hit me (and still does). That, of course, really led to vital and alive dynamic swings, and "seemed" to make timbre and texture more real, though I didn't feel Yggy's tonality changed in any way.
> 
> Regardless of what we Dante-phools do, it appears Schiit has thrown another wrench into the USB dac competition, raising the bar again.


In my system I hear the "black backgroundness" and "nothingness" which are, in my grasp of this, closely related, to how well the musical waveform is reconstructed.
By that I mean, when ALL (or more and more) of the source of the acoustical energy is 'contained' or 'concentrated' where it belongs vs spread out over time (either before or after), this results in 2 desirable acoustic aspects.
#1 The "black backgroundness" and "nothingness" have less 'residual' acoustical energy, and so are 'quieter' (more "black backgroundness" and "nothingness") because there is less energy in those moments where there shouldn't be any.
#2 The *'voices'* themselves become more real, as in all (or more and more) of their acoustical power is properly presented when and where it should be.
This increases the short term dynamics (*Leading Edge Dynamics* is how I hear it), because the acoustical energy is focused more precisely thru time.

This ability to re-create the original wave form with less 'smearing' thru time results in more accurate "micro details" & "vital and alive dynamic swings" & "timbre and texture" all without changing the "tonality" but instead enhancing all of these attributes, and more.
And the Jggy's ability to re-create the original waveform is among the very best available and so it is 'easier' to hear these subtle differences, assuming the rest of the system can 'keep up' so to speak.

And at this early stage that is the primary difference I hear between my AOIP and the Gen-5 digital audio feeds, that being, there is a bit of smearing/slight veil/slight, ever so slight drop in *Realness* when switching to the Gen-5 input.

And yeah that was the gauntlet that was 'thrown down' to see if USB could be improved enough to 'be all it could be' so to speak.
And it certainly has taken a 'mother may I' step up in SQ, enough so and with a no-brainer price to boot, that for most (unlike us audiophools) it’s now a rather expensive step up to the next level.
So Schiit has done it yet again, elevated the level of SQ of 'stock' gear up to that 99% level of attainment, and with bargain basement prices.
And the net result is more and more folks will be able to hear into the music all the Moar.

JJ


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## johnjen

So on Friday 8/18 (the night before our local PNW meet) with about 160hrs of settling in time, the gap between these 2 digital audio transports closed up by ≈ 1/2.

The G-5 still trails in 2nd place thus far, but the differences are getting smaller.
And I'll wait until ≈ 200+hrs (which should be tomorrow day, the 21st) before I check to hear what the differences between them has become.

But it is still amazing that this G-5 USB setup delivers so much for so little.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Progress report at just under 400hrs for the Gen-5 board.

So once again I (re)learned that turning off SMPS's improves the SQ.
And these last 3 devices aren't even in the audio chain.
And granted these are 'noisy' pieces of gear, in that they generate and deal with very hi-freq signals.

I turn off the cable modem, the wifi router, and the screen, and a whole nuther degree of inner detail comes alive.

And under these conditions the ∆ between the Gen-5 and my AOIP comes into sharper focus.

IOW the amount of the veil that becomes apparent when listening to the Gen-5 USB input to the Jggy is about the same as before, only the details are in sharper focus.

There is a softening, a slight smearing in the details of all '*voices*', an added bit of fuzz to the entire acoustic presentation, when compared to my AOIP feed.

And yes this ∆ is very slight and for most it may not be readily apparent, at all, nor significant.

So at this point I can say that the Gen-5 USB upgrade is right up there with the very best available right now.
But in keeping with Schiit's ability to deliver the most for the least, it is certainly a bargain and 3/4's.

I'll be waiting for another ≈100hrs before I make a 'final' evaluation, but for right now my dialed in AOIP feed still has the upper hand, albeit a slight one.

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 4, 2017)

Last night I *Mork'd* my system, just a little bit.
By little bit I mean I only *Mork'd* one connector pair, my 800 4-pin XLR into The Rok amp.

And thus far I like my *Mork'd* system *'Better'* than before it got *Mork'd*.
Of course it's still a bit early to make a final determination of the results of it getting *Mork'd*, let alone *Mork'ng* the rest of the system.
And of course if you're reading this you're probably aware that if this initial *Mork'ification* proves itself worthy, I'll jump in with both feet and *Mork'ify* the rest of my system.
And if these initial results continue to improve beyond what they are right now, that full meal deal to *Mork'fy* the rest of the system won't be to far off.

So I can hear the peanut gallery grumphing from here.
What is he carrying on about now?
And what is this *Mork* business all about anyway…

Well it's like this see…
Some may remember the *Mork* and Mindy show from way back.
And *Mork* (Robin Williams) would often mutter Nanu-Nanu as a response to situations.

In my case it would be Nano-Nano (it's just one letter off).

I am experimenting with Nano Fluid.
And I can absolutely unequivocally and categorically deny it has ANY thing to do with snake oil, in any way shape or form.
No snakes were harmed nor milked for their precious audiophool oil.
In fact they (Furutech) are quite proud of the fact that they DON'T use snake oil.
They use Shark (Squalene) Oil instead.
And they infuse it with nano particles (8 Nm Max., i.e. 8/1,000,000mm) of silver and gold.

This is a step beyond the silver paste I experimented with previously, which I abandoned when I started playing with metallurgical connector combinations.
The silver when used with my latest connectors was a small step backwards, but it did take the SQ backwards indeed, so I removed it (remember those XLR cleaning brushes?).

So now there is WAY less being used and the particle size has dropped by orders of magnitude as well.
But this stuff does have one draw back, it's like $200 for a tiny bottle with a volume of only 2cc.
I found it for ≈ 1/2 that price and figured it would be a worthwhile experiment to try.
And this 2cc of oil is enough to last me for the rest of my life, such is the tiny amount used for each connector pair

And thus far Getting *Mork'd* is delightful and I don't have to worry about depleting the worlds limited supply of genuwhine snake oil in the process.
What a relief!
And because I can categorically deny that this is snake oil of any sort, I'm safe from the pitchfork and rope noose crowd.

And the extra bit of focus and resolution I'm hearing after being *Mork'd* thus far is proving to be yet another tweak worthy of further exploration.

And so it goes.

JJ


----------



## Middy

I wasn't sure on the silver paste. But for cleaning loose removable connectors.
ultrasonic cleaners are a few dollars now and a litre of 100% Isopropyl alcohol not that much. I use a small glass dish to hold the alcohol and fill the the rest of the ultrasonic cleaner with water to act as a medium. The advantage with this is it removes fibers as well as surface contamination. 100% Isopropyl alcohol  is a great degreaser and cheap with no residue.
The wife's jewellery and small jobs around the house is a bonus...
Then ad a tiny amount of your preference coating.

Good luck all

Dave

ect but cheaper available

https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/jpl-ultr...NOzaej9WFZQOMBx29rhoC0wwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## johnjen (Sep 10, 2017)

So I've exceeded the 500hr. mark on the Gen5 board and will perform an evaluational test comparing it to my AOIP setup in due course.

But before I do that I have a small tweak to add to the AOIP system.
Today I added a UWB (Ultra Wide Bandwidth) voltage regulator to the 'output' FMC (Fiber Media Converter) inside, on the board itself.
This is a secondary regulator 'stage' to feed the FMC since it is being fed by an external low noise LPS.

Thus far I can't say I hear any improvement, but for $15 it’s a low cost experiment and I figured it simply can't make it worse.
And this solves another situation at the same time.

This LPS that powers this FMC is also being used to power a small fan that was being fed by 10 instead of 12VDC, and as consequence spun a tad bit slower.
I cranked the LPS down to 10VDC so I wouldn't overdrive the FMC which normally runs on 9VDC.
Now I can crank up the voltage to 12VDCthat feeds the fan and this new secondary voltage regulator that feeds the FMC, and everyone is happy(er).

Tomorrow I'll be adding 2 more of these regulators to the 2 Mutecs in my AOIP chain, as they too are being fed via an external dual output LPS.

The thinking goes like this.
Dacs and other digital audio gear seem to respond well to multiple levels of regulation and the closer the regulation is to the load, the 'better' the results.
And at $15 each these make it an easy decision to try this experiment.
And I can't possibly see how this could make anything worse, assuming the specific design parameters are properly dealt with.

So if you're hanker'n to find a cheap tweak this might just fit the bill.
And it should be noted this project isn't for the novice DIY'r, as there is a certain amount of fabrication and figure'n required.

JJ


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## johnjen

Update…
The new 5VDC regulator had a problem so I yanked it back out and will investigate further.
It only sent 4.5VDC to the Mutec and pulled the LPS 'supply' voltage down by 2 volts.
Not a satisfactory situation, so emails are going out with replies soon to be received (I hope).

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I optimized my system and compared my tweako AOIP vs. Gen-5 USB.
And now with ≈ 750hrs on the Gen-5 board in my system the Gen-5 is remarkably close but not as resolving nor as focused and detailed as my AOIP digital audio feed.

There is a lessening in the Leading Edged Dynamic Impact (*LEDI*) as well as a very slight softening of inner detail and an ever so slight veil that becomes apparent when switching directly to USB.

But unless you were in a position to compare directly you'd most likely never notice these differences.
As in, we're talk'n 5-15% change threshold here. (Threshold of Perception - *ToP*) 
And unless your hearing was sufficiently 'calibrated', these differences would be all to easily dismissed, and some might even prefer the 'softer' USB presentation in any case.

Which makes the Gen-5 a bargain by any measure.

But since I have been monitoring this matchup, this slight degradation in SQ relagates this input as a backup to the AOIP which continues to improve as further tweaks are added.

And so it goes.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy (Sep 12, 2017)

There really is no going back to USB once you've heard the benefits of what a tweako AOIP can do for your system at least based on what I am hearing with my rig.
But I do agree that the Gen5 or EITR is a cheap way of getting closer to the best SQ at least for those who can't go the AOIP route.

Thanks JJ for doing the comparo!


----------



## johnjen

Yeah it is a remarkable improvement to USB, one that will stand up to the best of the most tweako setups.
Highly recommended, even if you do have a tweako setup, just as a backup, and for the $$ a no brainer considering.

JJ


----------



## mourip

Well I am a bit late to the game regarding exchanging the SMPS in my Mutec 3+ USB but I did so yesterday. Thanks to all for the tips and tricks!

Being lazy I decided to find a way to remove the SMPS without removing the motherboard and was successful. The SMPS is soldered to 4 pegs that are also conductors and have through-hole connections. I carefully applied heat to each successive pin while pulling upwards. After a couple rounds of this I had managed to un-solder and release all pins, freeing the board. Before starting I did decide that I had no intention of being able to reverse the mod however so I was not concerned about damaging the SMPS. Luckily it worked out very well.

I used one of the included cables for my HDPlex LPS by cutting of the DC connector and prepping the leads for soldering to the DC inlet pins that were now well exposed. As I had previously removed the USB board that I did not need with my Dante setup I used that opening to thread the cable in for soldering to the pins. Along with soldering the cable to the pins, being extremely careful to understand the polarity of my cable, I soldered one electrolytic capacitor across the DC leads and paralleled it with a small value polypropylene cap. I did this to help compensate for the longish cable from the LPS. I used the variable output on my LPS and set it to 6.3 volts.

Did it help? OMG. The clarity which was already great was now remarkable. I can easily follow individual instrumental threads within complex music. Definitely worthwhile.

On a separate but related note. I have now added a Mutec REF10 to my system. Within a few days I will write that up and post in the AOIP thread.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah ridding our systems of SMPS’s nearly always results in significant improvements, and in some cases these changes are VERY pronounced.  And I’ve noticed changes even on peripheral equipment (like a fan).  I figure it’s a combo deal of them generating noise that ‘pollutes’ not just the circuit it’s powering but the entire ground plane the our audio systems ‘stand on’.  And with tweaked and resolving systems these changes can be rather gratifying, to say the least.   

JJ


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## johnjen

So I'd been on vaca for a month and when I got back the system sounded dull and a bit lifeless with the very bottom dried up and flacid.
I knew what to do, since I recognized these traits.

So I cooked the power cables and interconnects and just a bit earlier today put them all back in the system along with a nano treatment to all connections.


AHHHHHHHHHH…  that's more like it…

The extreme bottom end has returned, the small and large signal dynamics as well as the overall cohesiveness of the acoustic presentation is back where it belongs, in my ears.
Just like I like it.

JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> So I'd been on vaca for a month and when I got back the system sounded dull and a bit lifeless with the very bottom dried up and flacid.
> I knew what to do, since I recognized these traits.
> 
> So I cooked the power cables and interconnects and just a bit earlier today put them all back in the system along with a nano treatment to all connections.
> ...



What are you using for the cooking process?


----------



## johnjen

One of these,  https://www.thecablecooker.com/
It ain't cheap but since the 'effect' wares off after about a year, a 24hr 'treatment' brings them back to full form, which is what I just did.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Oh yeah, and last night I had a *SuperDuperSuperGlue* session and by the sounds of what I'm hearing tonight, it might be 5am, again, before I manage to tear my 800's off my head.

JJ


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## mourip (Nov 10, 2017)

johnjen said:


> One of these,  https://www.thecablecooker.com/
> It ain't cheap but since the 'effect' wares off after about a year, a 24hr 'treatment' brings them back to full form, which is what I just did.
> 
> JJ



Sorry fat finger mistake. See next post...


----------



## mourip (Nov 8, 2017)

A couple of months ago I got a FryBaby2 cable burn-in device from Hagerman Audio Labs. It was recommended on Jim Days blog.


----------



## mourip

Over on CA I found out about the LT3045 regulator board. It is ironic because I believe that RB2013 was talking about it here earlier this year before he left HF. 

This is a very small DC to DC fixed voltage regulator with very low noise. They are sold on EBay and you have a choice of the fixed output voltage. It also has a low dropout voltage of only about .7v and comes in .5 and 1.0 amp versions. Mine came today and I installed it in my Mutec 3+ USB which was already running off of an HDPlex LPS from it's 9v variable output which I had set to 6.3v. Switching from the SMPS to the LPS had made a nice change. 

Today I raised the output to 6.8v and installed the 6v@1A version of the LT3045 board. I also retained the modest sized electrolytic that I had been using for local bypassing of the DC input inside the chassis.I was hoping to at least break even for my effort but found that the improvement was really, really good. The noise floor must have dropped quite a bit because more details were brought out. I also found an improvement of perceived tonal "correctness".


----------



## Muziqboy (Nov 12, 2017)

You should try chaining 2 of these LT3045 in series.
I have been running a 9v Li-ion battery pack -> 7.1v@1A LT3045 -> 5v@1A LT3045 -> Mutec3 usb. And another same config to the other Mutec3 usb.
Rob reported even lower noise than just running 1 LT3045 in his thread on USAM where he moved.

Been enjoying the SQ benefits for awhile but have not posted the results here and since you noticed the improvement that it brings, I have to agree with you. Acoustic instruments specially Upright Bass sounds more well defined and fleshed out.
I will be running the same set-up to power the Rednet3 when I receive the regulators next week and hopefully the 1A rating of the regulators is enough to power it.

If you are running the Fiber Media Converters in your system, you have to try powering it with LT3045's in series also.
As it is right now, my LiveClock is also powered by series LT3045's @.5A with batteries, and the RN3 will join the battery powered series LT3045's if the experiment I'll do next week succeeds.


----------



## johnjen (Nov 12, 2017)

Ok so between the 2 of you, you've convinced me to try again.

The first set of 'extra' regulators I purchased required over 2 volts of headroom (drop out voltage), which my LPS didn't have, since it's a 7Vac transformer.

So if these regulators from LDOVR can effectively deal with ≈ 6Vdc input and knock it down to 5Vdc for the 2 Mutec 3+'s I have, this should satisfy my desire to mod them yet again.

But I gotta say the SQ right now is better than I expected due to the last several tweaks which have settled in.  Of course if another veil gets lifted it's all for the better.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

All that we can do is to report what we have experienced in trying these.
You still have to try it in your set-up and find out for yourself if it is worth it.
But I still would suggest the dual regulators in series. After all, we are experimenters aren't we?


----------



## johnjen

mourip said:


> A couple of months ago I got a FryBaby2 cable burn-in device from Hagerman Audio Labs. It was recommended on Jim Days blog.


So what do you notice as changes after using your FryBaby2?
Just curious.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Muziqboy said:


> All that we can do is to report what we have experienced in trying these.
> You still have to try it in your set-up and find out for yourself if it is worth it.
> But I still would suggest the dual regulators in series. After all, we are experimenters aren't we?


Oh yeah I'll give it a go.  
These should work better, I hope.

JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> So what do you notice as changes after using your FryBaby2?
> Just curious.
> 
> JJ



To be honest I did not hear much of a difference however I was applying the treatment to cables that already had quite a few hours on them. Others had felt that it benefited cables that were already in use but I remain skeptical on that or at least could not hear it in my own system. What I really need to do is make up a new pair and try them before and after.

I believe in the concept but have not found a good situation to test in yet


----------



## johnjen

Ah I see.  For how long have you cooked your cable(s)?

I noticed that your FryBaby applies less current and voltage than the cooker I use, so I would suspect it would take much more time to 'fully' cook your cables.  Especially the larger gauge cables.  My 9awg cables took 7 days to fully cook and that is with the greater voltage and current of my cooker.

Even so I noticed changes, before I reached the cables being fully cooked.
And the changes were rather obvious.

JJ


----------



## mourip

Muziqboy said:


> I will be running the same set-up to power the Rednet3 when I receive the regulators next week and hopefully the 1A rating of the regulators is enough to power it.



After seeing what the regulator did for my Mutec I ordered a 5v version for my D16. The issue was then to figure out a DC source that was just about 6 volts. I was already using the variable outputs of my 2 HDPlex LPSs and I did not feel like spending more money. The thought came to me that perhaps I could re-purpose my 5V Teradak by seeing if it had a large enough DC input and an adjustment pot. Luckily it does. The transformer is good for 9 volts AC and it does indeed have a blue adjustment pot. I set it for about 5.8 volts to account for the dropout voltage of the regulator. Waiting for the regulator now.

Seeing how the Teradak could be tweaked made sense as I always thought that it ran very warm running the 5V and probably 1 amp that my D16 needed. It was probably throwing away 12.6(9*1.4) - 5v = ~7.6 volts as heat. Should be slightly cooler now. If this works I might try adding another 6V regulator is series and turn up the Teradak output further to 7V. Teradak has a little sticker on their supply stating that opening it will invalidate the warranty. I can understand this but I also bet that they do not want users to tweak the voltage themselves or know how easy it is. They should sell it as 5-9V adjustable and put the pot on the back of the case like HDPlex does...

Fun stuff!


----------



## Muziqboy (Nov 15, 2017)

Hearing the sound improvement in what those regulators did to the Mutec's and Liveclock, it solidified my belief at this point on the benefits of feeding the clocks with the best quality and lowest noise power that you can find. Too bad that my SR PERF10 10Mhz Rubidium clock can not use these as it requires a constant current feed of 1.5A @ 12v. but it is being powered by a Meiyan low noise LPS so it's alright.

The 3 sets of 7.1v & 5v 1A LT3045's arrived today so I'll be running those to power the other Mutec's (non usb) and the RN3 in my set-up.

Fun stuff indeed!


----------



## johnjen (Nov 15, 2017)

mourip said:


> After seeing what the regulator did for my Mutec I ordered a 5v version for my D16. The issue was then to figure out a DC source that was just about 6 volts. I was already using the variable outputs of my 2 HDPlex LPSs and I did not feel like spending more money. The thought came to me that perhaps I could re-purpose my 5V Teradak by seeing if it had a large enough DC input and an adjustment pot. Luckily it does. The transformer is good for 9 volts AC and it does indeed have a blue adjustment pot. I set it for about 5.8 volts to account for the dropout voltage of the regulator. Waiting for the regulator now.
> 
> Seeing how the Teradak could be tweaked made sense as I always thought that it ran very warm running the 5V and probably 1 amp that my D16 needed. It was probably throwing away 12.6(9*1.4) - 5v = ~7.6 volts as heat. Should be slightly cooler now. If this works I might try adding another 6V regulator is series and turn up the Teradak output further to 7V. Teradak has a little sticker on their supply stating that opening it will invalidate the warranty. I can understand this but I also bet that they do not want users to tweak the voltage themselves or know how easy it is. They should sell it as 5-9V adjustable and put the pot on the back of the case like HDPlex does...
> 
> Fun stuff!


To help with the heat from the teradak you can run it at an even higher output voltage and then have the secondary regulator drop that higher voltage down itself.

An example.
The Teradak drops the voltage by 7.6v x 1amp (1 amp used for ease of this discussion) = 7.6watts of heat with an output of 5Vdc
If the Teradak drops the voltage by 5v x 1amp = 5 watts of heat (a reduction by ≈1/3) with an output of 7.6Vdc.
Which in turn means the secondary regulator now drops that input voltage of 7.6Vdc to 5Vdc or 2.6V x1 amp = 2.6watts.

IOW spreading the voltage drop more evenly over 2 regulators means less heat for the primary regulator and a bit more thermal stability for the 2nd regulator as well.

And of course these voltage drops can be adjusted to suit your needs and setup as needed.

Just a thought or 2.

JJ


----------



## mourip

johnjen said:


> To help with the heat from the teradak you can run it at an even higher output voltage and then have the secondary regulator drop that higher voltage down itself.
> 
> An example.
> The Teradak drops the voltage by 7.6v x 1amp (1 amp used for ease of this discussion) = 7.6watts of heat with an output of 5Vdc
> ...



Sounds like a good plan. I guess that the trick is to not expect the secondary boards to dissipate too much heat as they have virtually no heat sink?


----------



## johnjen

In part that is true, but small amounts of heat can actually help stabilize the operation of the regulator since it will make for a more stable thermal environment.
The load itself varies but adding a 'constant' amount of 'background' heat flow can provide more stability thermally speaking.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So a status report.

During my vaca I left my entire system on and playing the entire time.
As such I added ≈700hrs to the total accumulated hrs which amounted to ≈2500hrs when I returned.
This is sufficient for ALL of the rhodium connectors to fully settle in.
And of course the re-cooking of all of my cables since returning has helped a whole bunch as well.

The results thus far are a noticeable increase in* I5* (Intelligibility,) an increase in *coupling* and definition in the bottom octaves.
And in the mid range there is a greater degree of focus and *cohesion* and *coherence.*
Along with improvements in *T3*, (ToeTappingTime)* HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving), *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor), *Moar Is Less, SDSG *(SuperDuperSuperGlue), the overall SQ has risen to new levels of *REALNESS.*

Just like I like…!

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I just ordered a new set of speakers to replace my Dayton $40 bookshelfs.
I figured it was time to up the SQ of my nearfield setup.

I ordered a set of Ascend Acoustic Sierra Luna mini bookshelfs, which are very similar to their Sierra 2's only using a smaller mid range driver in a smaller case.
I don't know how long it will take to get here but I'm figur'n it'll be my xmas present to me.

The specs and measurements are most impressive and my Rok amp should have plenty of power to drive them to 'satisfactory' levels.
It has a RAAL ribbon tweeter and a 4.5" SEAS long throw mid driver, with a Freq Response of 60 - 27KHz ±3db.
The horizontal and vertical dispersion and decay response is most impressive as well.

And to top it off (if I feel so inclined) they make sub woofers which work well with these mini monitors.
So I might be able to get my pants a flapp'n, a new experience for me in my home setup.

This should enable a MAJOR step up for my home speaker setup.

I'm jazzed… 

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I just ordered a new set of speakers to replace my Dayton $40 bookshelfs.
> I figured it was time to up the SQ of my nearfield setup.
> 
> I ordered a set of Ascend Acoustic Sierra Luna mini bookshelfs, which are very similar to their Sierra 2's only using a smaller mid range driver in a smaller case.
> ...



Yggy/Rok + speakers? The other people in the house (and the neighbors) will just have to adjust to the 20 hour sessions.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah they'll learn the true meaning of suffering…  
All the while gruv'n to the tunes…   

And really I doubt these speakers will equal my 800's, unless I get a sub and then probably only to the degree the visceral impact in the bottom end gets boosted.
Of course I might be in for a shock/surprise after they show up and settle in, as to how good they may actually be.
And I'll find out if the subwoofer section of jriver is of any help, or not.

Still, they will definitely be a step up for sure.

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 7, 2017)

So here are a couple interesting measurements of these speakers






For a 4.5" woofer that is really good low end response, but it's the midrange where it will really shine.

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 7, 2017)

and




Notice how fast the driver stops.  And the crossover is at 2200Hz.
This is rather impressive, at least from a measurement stand point.

We'll see how they sound in a few days.

JJ
and these graphs are courtesy of Ascend Acoustics.


----------



## mourip

mourip said:


> Over on CA I found out about the LT3045 regulator board. It is ironic because I believe that RB2013 was talking about it here earlier this year before he left HF.
> 
> This is a very small DC to DC fixed voltage regulator with very low noise. They are sold on EBay and you have a choice of the fixed output voltage. It also has a low dropout voltage of only about .7v and comes in .5 and 1.0 amp versions. Mine came today and I installed it in my Mutec 3+ USB which was already running off of an HDPlex LPS from it's 9v variable output which I had set to 6.3v. Switching from the SMPS to the LPS had made a nice change.
> 
> Today I raised the output to 6.8v and installed the 6v@1A version of the LT3045 board. I also retained the modest sized electrolytic that I had been using for local bypassing of the DC input inside the chassis.I was hoping to at least break even for my effort but found that the improvement was really, really good. The noise floor must have dropped quite a bit because more details were brought out. I also found an improvement of perceived tonal "correctness".



I received my second LT3045 regulator this week and installed it in my Focusrite D16 which was already running off my HDPLEX LPS. It is a 5V regulator and I decided to repurpose my Teradak 5v LPS which can easily be adjusted to a higher voltage using the small blue pot inside. The rcore transformer in it is rated for 9v so I assume that after the full bridge rectifier it is putting out 9v x 1.4 = ~12.6v unregulated DC. I turned it up to 5.8v to allow for the .7v dropout and all is well. I already had a 2200mf in the D16 for a local bypass and so kept it.

To be honest it is a little hard to evaluate the effect it had as I have a new amp in my system which I am helping Linear Tube Audio beta test and so my system is in flux a bit. I am sure that it will help as it certainly made a nice difference in my Mutec USB. I may try putting another one in series later. Hope springs eternal


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## Luckbad (Dec 22, 2017)

I went ahead and built the @atomicbob Noise Nuke today because the parts arrived shortly before I got off work.

It's too soon to declare it the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade to any DC powered headphone amplifier, but I really do think I'm hearing subjective improvement.

My parts list was a little different from atomicbob's:

Choke: Hammond 155B 6mH 2A
Capacitors: Nichicon FW 6800uf 63V (KW were not in stock anywhere)
Enclosure: Mammoth 4S1590BBT w/ black texture powdercoat
DC Jacks: Switchcraft PC722A
Odds & Ends: A pair of 1" cable tie mounts, cable ties, heavy duty velcro, a bit of wire, solder, some padding and electrical tape for the choke to stay snug and comfortable.
The listening station:

Lynx AES16e → Neutrik AES/BNC transformer → Schiit Bifrost Multibit → Garage1217 Project Sunrise III (w/ Noise Nuke) → Sennheser HD650 (w/ phase reversal trick, which I think is a @johnjen special)

Some glamor shots of the atomicbob Noise Nuke paired with the Garage1217 Project Sunrise III, cleaning up the power from the Mean Well switching power supply (they mean well, but it's still an SMPS... har har...):


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## johnjen (Dec 23, 2017)

If i were to make one of those I'd put some smaller bypass caps across those electrolytic's using the 100:1 rule.

13,600 : 136 : 1.36 : 0.0136.

Of course you can round up or down to suit, based upon the availability of usable caps.
IOW the exact rating of the cap can be adjusted (the need to stay at the 100:1 ratio isn't strict).
And I'd be using high voltage (100, 200, 400 etc voltage rated caps).

This will help reduce the high freq spurious noise and also the ability to dump current into the load more quickly.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So following in MusiqBoys footsteps I just got done adding 2 of the LT3045 regulators to the 2 Mutec 3+'s, right at their mainboards.
This is after using a pair of LT3045 regulators in the LPS I built to power these 2 digital devices.
So in effect I have a 2 stage voltage regulator setup with the 2nd stage installed locally at the load itself.
I also have added a 8µfd with a 0.01µfd bypass at the mainboard of each 3+ as well.

This is the 3+ USB mainboard with the added voltage regulator


 


Thus far the SQ has taken yet another step up in every meaningful category I pay attention to.

I measured the noise across those bypass caps at, (using the Tektronix 468 scope with it's digital memory modes of capturing and measuring the noise on top of the +5Vdc being supplied by the 2nd stage voltage regulator.
Norm = 4.6 to 3.76mv (high to low frequency sweep rates)
Average = 0.77 to 0.41mv (high to low frequency sweep rates)
Envelope = 9.8 to 7.2mv (high to low frequency sweep rates)

The results are even noticeable on my new Ascend Acoustic Sierra Luna Mini Monitors.
And they are being somewhat limited since I'm using a cheap (as in $20) Lepai class T (really class D) 8watt/ch amp.
So if I can hear these sorts of changes thru a cheap, under powered, digital amp, I'm really looking forward to what they will reveal when I power them with my Rok amp.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 3, 2018)

So Musiqboy have you mounted the 2nd stage regulators inside your 3+'s yet?
And if so did you notice any difference from having them be external vs. internal?

Just curious.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I have both regulators installed in a project box with a 2.1mm dc plug on the output.
It is more convenient for my application so don't know if there is a difference between external vs. internal mounting.
But I did notice and heard the improvement in using the series regulator configuration as I have mentioned to you before.


----------



## johnjen

Good to know, thanks.

I'd venture a guess that if you did install them inside the 3+'s, you'd hear an additional improvement.
Mostly due to the proximity of the regulator to the load it is feeding.

This is a 'trick' used in many dacs and other 'tweako' audio devices, where they place regulators as close as possible to the load they feed.

Just a thought.

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

I am now thinking of running another regulator in conjunction with the dual in-series configuration to see what effect that will bring. IOW, triple in-series config. (9v->7.1v->5v) or (7.1v->6v->5v) kinda like what I am running currently for the FMC’s.

Experimentation is so much fun specially if there is a positive outcome.

Any thoughts JJ?


----------



## johnjen (Jan 5, 2018)

It certainly would be interesting to hear if there are any, and what they might be, as to the changes that adding a 3rd regulator would make.

But I think what I'd do is to mount your 2nd regulator internal to the load and then determine what that changes are, THEN add the 3rd regulator in the middle.
That way the effect of having the regulator as close to the load as possible is determined 1st, then the middle regulator's contribution can be somewhat isolated as to what it adds as a SQ change.

And as long as the voltage drop between the regulators is sufficient to supply enough voltage for the downstream regulator(s), you should be fine. 
And the greater the voltage drop cross each voltage regulator the greater the heat generated by that regulator, but 1 to 2 volt drops, at the current being used by the circuits, means the wattage is very low to begin with.

JJ


----------



## mourip

I am wondering about experiences with electrolytic caps for use in association with regulators. I would like to tweak the 3045 regulator I added internally to replace the SMPS in my M3USB. Currently I have a somewhat old Panasonic 2200mf on the input to the regulator for local bypassing.I just received a bunch of new Panasonic 1000mf FC's and also discovered a stash of 2200mf Blackgates that I had never used. I am wondering which would be better. I know that the BG's are good for analog audio signal applications but perhaps the new FCs have lower ESR and would work better in a power supply.

I am also wondering if other have found audible improvement by putting small value high quality caps on the output of the regulator? I know that some regulators do not like extra capacitance on their output.

Any opinions?


----------



## johnjen

My 2¢.
I don't have any experience with any of those particular caps but adding a local 'reservoir' at the board (and in this case, to replace the SMPS and its function of being a local reservoir), along with some small value bypass caps has always been a mod I like to add to the gear I use, where I can.  And the bypass caps tend to 'speed up' the delivery of current that the larger value caps aren't optimized for.  So the effective response time (read frequency response) of the capacitor 'stack' can be improved, which in one way is related to ESR in that the ability to dump current when 'asked', is enhanced.

In my 3+ implementations, I used an 8µfd with a 0.01µfd bypass as the local 'reservoir' and I figure using a 2200µfd would mean using 3 caps instead of just 2 using the ≈100:1 ratio to get down to the 0.01µfd value (2200 - 20 - 0.01µfd).  And in a digital circuit, in contrast to an analog circuit, I'm not sure if the much larger cap (2200µfd) would be of much benefit since there really isn't much low frequency current demand from these devices.  But then it certainly wouldn't hurt either, and if they are already on hand and will fit, I'd add them, just because I could.

I hope this helps.

JJ


----------



## mourip

Thanks for the 2 cents! I am thinking that the capacitor that I already have in place is probably adequate and I might wait to put in a second regulator instead. I also might replace the Teradac LPS that is powering it.

Hope springs eternal...


----------



## johnjen (Jan 15, 2018)

I'd still want to add a 0.01µfd bypass cap to help deal with the fast rise time, short duration spikes and other hi freq noise generated by the load of the digital circuit itself.  Using just a large value electrolytic isn't the best choice for helping to dampen the sorts of noise that is generated by digital circuits.

Just another thought or 2.

JJ


----------



## mourip

Thanks for those thoughts JJ. Appreciated as always.


----------



## johnjen

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jan 28, 2018)

Listening duration vs SQ

So here’s a question to anyone who spends the time, as described, listening to their HP’s.

I have mentioned this subject before but have not fully explained this procedure.
And while I have seen, for myself, a pattern emerge, I’d like to see if anyone else notices any pattern(s) while listening during any ‘prolonged’ listening sessions.

This ‘test’ needs continuous uninterrupted listening time, like at least 2 albums, being played back to back.
Put another way at least 1.5 hrs of continual listening while keeping the HPS on your head for the entire time.
And of course if the listening session becomes engaging enough, the duration can be extended to several more hours of continuous listening.

Now some may not use their HP’s in this way, as in a long term continuous playing and listening to your favorite music session, and if not, this might just be something to try.
Also this mode of listening might just yield some unanticipated results and shifts in the actual perception of the performance.

For me it seems to shift in increments of approximately double the amount of time before the onset of another perceptual shift.
IOW if a shift happens at ≈1/2hr, another can happen at ≈1hr, but this is merely what I’ve observed, you may notice a different pattern.

And I suspect those systems where careful attention has been paid to what we would later call ‘rough edges’, will this test make noticing these kinds of changes ‘easy(er)’ to begin with.
IOW after we have tweaked portions of the system and reaped SQ rewards and so have noticed the changes that refined the SQ of the entire system, will these changes be more likely to be heard.

And these tests should be performed only after the system has reached thermal equilibrium and has fully stabilized.

And, I do have a theory about what happens and why, and it probably isn’t what you might expect.

So I’d invite any and all to dive into the deep end of this pool and see if there are any perceptual changes as a result of extended listening sessions.

Just another experiment to try.

JJ


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## johnjen (Feb 4, 2018)

So my mini monitors have accrued sufficient time and the 'relationship' with my Rok has stabilized enough to begin evaluating them.

But I heard, on the speakers, the center image was shifted to the left, so I began playing with the digital balance control inside JRivers DSP Studio and found that it was off by 1.5 to 2dB (I'm still fussing with the specific amount of correction).

At first I thought it was the speakers but after further sleuthing it was also apparent in my 800's.
I found it interesting that it was MUCH easier to ferret out this channel imbalance using speakers in a nearfield setup.

I mention this because there is a direct correlation between the response of the extreme bottom end and how closely matched the L & R channels are.
IOW when the low bass (which is mono) is channel matched, the degree of punch and impact (some might say slam) along with resolution and focus, peaks.
I use this trait to dial in the channel balance, and can even hear differences in the mini monitors, even though they peter out really fast below 60Hz.
I have somewhat compensated for this using EQ, still, they only have a 4.5" 'woofer'.

I'm not sure where this discrepancy manifests (dac or amp) and I doubt it occurs in the digital front end, but it has been corrected which is sufficient, for now.
I have previously explored this relationship between the very bottom end and matching the L & R channels, and know that very small incremental changes (like 0.1dB) can be heard when everything is setup properly, which I have verified on my 800's and to a lessor degree can hear on my mini monitors as well.

This is an easy experiment to try, assuming you have a form of balance control (DSP or other means) just to hear if there are any noticeable differences.

JJ


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## mourip

Interesting topic. I have struggled with L/R balance for a long time. So much so that I finally realized two things: First is that I cannot really enjoy a speaker system that does not include a balance control. Second is that that the issue varies within a static system on different days and also that this pattern does not change with new equipment. I came to the conclusion that the imbalance had almost noting to do with my equipment or even my room, which had been my first suspect. As it turns out my hearing changes according to my sinus condition and probably also the weather (barometric pressure and humidity?). 

Adjusting the balance helps a lot but then I do get into issues with speaker placement and room acoustics. I have taken to remediation for my sinus congestion as the best route for a good listening session. As you mentioned the issue is not so bad with headphones and so my HP system does not include a balance control.

Just a few more data points

BTW. Do you find that adjusting balance using DSP in JRMC affects sound quality?


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## gefski

For instant channel balance and phase checks (hugely obvious & easy), I use this whenever I tear down & reassemble. Have it ripped to iMac as well.


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## johnjen

mourip said:


> Interesting topic. I have struggled with L/R balance for a long time.
> snip
> 
> BTW. Do you find that adjusting balance using DSP in JRMC affects sound quality?


Not really.  I use (with one exception) only small amounts, as in under 6dB of correction, and usually only about 3dB.  

That seems to be the trick, to use only small amounts of correction.

JJ


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## johnjen (Feb 4, 2018)

I found pink noise and pure tone files on line that I use to get close.
Then I play music with very low freq bass and fine tune the correction (like by 0.1dB) as I play these selected tracks. 
I even have a playlist with nothing but thunderous bass with plenty of impact.

It can take days or weeks of time to finalize the settings, as it gets more and more subtle with such fine adjustments, as I fuss with the settings during specific portions of all of the tracks.

But I should see if I can get a copy of that CD just as a reference.

JJ



gefski said:


> For instant channel balance and phase checks (hugely obvious & easy), I use this whenever I tear down & reassemble. Have it ripped to iMac as well.


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## mourip

gefski said:


> For instant channel balance and phase checks (hugely obvious & easy), I use this whenever I tear down & reassemble. Have it ripped to iMac as well.



Great tool. I have owned one for probably 25 years. I am always using the L/R track for when I screw up my interconnects!

For balance I pretty much have to use my ears as it can vary so much depending on my sinus congestion. TMI?


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## johnjen

*Are there 2 types of listeners?*

It could be said that there might be 2 types of listeners, those who can hear *INTO* the music, vs those who listen *TO* the music.
This might seem like a rather subtle distinction, one that may not seem all that important.
But it could go a long way in helping to explain THE major dichotomy within the world of audio, the primary split between the Objective-ists vs Subjective-ists.

This might help to explain, at least in part, why some insist that upgrades such as cables, fuses, etc, make no difference and so define them as “snake oil” or worse etc.  And perhaps they haven’t yet learned how, nor what to listen for, and/or perhaps they simply can’t hear these subtle cues, and so for them these beliefs become ‘fact’.
As such, based upon their experience, they ‘Know’ and so proclaim, as fact, albeit often indirectly, that these very same subtle cues can’t be real.
Which is probably a true statement for them, but by the rules of logic, simply can't apply universally.
And of course a variety of supporting rationalizations and arguments that call on authority can and have been employed as well.

But our appreciation of music still boils down to all of our experience and the degree of Calibration that the individual has achieved.  This is a form of learning, but not by the analytic portion of our minds, rather it involves the auditory processing portion which is directly linked (like our vision and smell etc.) to our awareness of what occurs in the moment.
IOW what we hear is live and direct into our awareness.

And this points directly at the differences between listening TO the music vs. INTO our music.
For myself sometimes when the music is playing in the background, I’m not even listening TO the music, but using it as a source for a pleasant distraction in the background while I do other things.  
And sometimes it will grab my attention, forcing me to pay attention and listen TO the music.  
And if by paying closer attention I am drawn INTO the music, well then the fun really begins.  
Being drawn INTO the music is a learned trait which increases the depth, dimensionality of the experience, and so the meaning of the experience is enhanced.
But most importantly, it engages my ability to fully immerse myself INTO the music, experience the music as if it surrounds me, as it grabs me and sucks me INTO the performance and transports me there INTO the successively unfolding now moments, which IS the music.

I call this ‘connection’ my *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) where I get fully involved and engaged with and INTO the music itself.
As these experiences continue they perform a *Calibration* which allows me to know what is possible, what aspects of these experiences are worthy of further exploration AND they become compelling enough that I want to seek them out.
This also provides the motivation to tweak my playback system to determine if I can enhance this experience, a trend I refer to as striving towards *REALNESS*.

*Calibration* is based upon the process of listening INTO the music and gaining a greater degree of experience of SQ than what the listener has heretofore heard before.
Which translates to hearing more of what is possible, which leads to knowing WHAT you're hearing, which then feeds back to WHAT to listen for in the first place.
This is a form of a feedback loop which refines, delineates and helps us focus our ability to hear even further INTO the music.

And in the end, audio is an experiential based endeavor, meaning we decide if the SQ is acceptable, or not, if the changes made were an improvement, or not, solely based upon our experience of what we desire and hear. Gaining this experience has little to do with measurements, other than recognizing them as broad cursory strengths/limitations to the systems overall performance envelope.

But that isn’t to say that we can’t pay particular attention to aspects of this ‘live stream’ of music and learn to recognize changes in particular aspects of a ‘*voice*’ as I call them.
A ‘*voice*’ is any source of sound in a piece of music, be it a saxophone, drums (in a set), the human voice, a piano etc.

Each of these has a unique set of frequencies and ALL of their natural resultant harmonics, along with various room/effects.
And let’s not ignore the musicians gift at exploring and expressing all of what each ‘voice’ can truly provide, as this is where the ‘good stuff’ resides, and where much of the meaning we attain from listening INTO the music originates.

We as audiophools can and do vary these harmonic relationships by various means and methods and can choose to do so in such a way that the music can now express ‘more’ of what it inherently is.
AKA There’s more there, there.

This is where tweaking and refinements kick in, like eliminating ALL SMPS’s from the household electrical load (if possible) etc.
And for me, buying the gear is but the first step in integrating and optimizing the entire system, as there are many additional refinements that I use to help, which many would probably simply dismiss out of hand.

And that's great, for those who have found their version of musical enjoyment, but as such they will never hear what is truly possible out of a truly well refined and dialed in system, and perhaps they simply can't hear these sorts of audible subtleties, which is a great way to avoid such wallet draining circumstances in the first place.

And it certainly precludes Audio Nervosa from even gaining a foot hold.

To wit here is a revealing talk given the the CTO of ESS (DAC chip maker fame)  skip to ≈ 19 minutes for the start of the directly meaningful stuff, and the really pointed subject matter begins at 25:30, (But the entire talk is interesting).


Yes all this time spent tweaking is significant and involved and complex and involves the need to merge multiple technical capabilities all at the same time.  IOW it’s a complicated mix of different kinds of technical know-how that the DIY’r and tweaker brings together to impact the operation of our systems.  This process of experimenting, learning and discovery can take many years, but then this is a hobby and the time spent is ours to freely give.

And the resulting changes and improvements are for us to appreciate.
These changes, that allow more of the music thru the system which is then presented to us to hear, are why we pursue this course of action.
Because when we hear into the music we are rewarded with a degree of added musical enjoyment and no amount of nay saying can ever negate nor change these experiences.

And in the past the opinion has been proffered that how could I, as a lone experimenter without the resources of the factory behind me, improve upon their cumulative expertise in the 1st place…?
It’s a kin to the ‘so you think you know more than the designers, better than the manufacturer, better than all the really smart guys.  Oh the (at least implied) arrogance’, argument.

Except that the manufacturer has to pay attention to many significant details, like having to meet federal and safety regulations, having to meet the marketing depts expectations, and the accounting department, let alone make a profit, and a whole host of other aspects to running a business, all of which we as DIY’rs can and do, more or less, ignore.  Not to mention practicality and user friendliness and the demand for an aesthetic standard and being willing to have wires poking out of places they shouldn’t be etc.  And to a certain degree the argument is correct, we don’t have all of the resources available, but we do know a few tricks the factory rarely employes for numerous reasons.

And we audiophools, being the step children of the audio world, are willing and able to explore and push those envelopes just to see what we find and learn for ourselves what does and doesn’t provide us with more ability to hear INTO the music and delight in what we find there.

JJ


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## gefski

Once we get INTO well recorded music played on equipment that goes after that REALNESS, we can't "unhear" those cues, Truth of timbre, texture, touch, graceful and natural dynamic flow, real instruments in space, the perception of hall sound even in "silence", are just a few things that matter.

And the amazing acuity of human hearing, even for those of us with "old" ears, allows us to pretty consistently achieve genuine improvements in our systems over the years.


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## johnjen

Yeah gefski, I agree, once those subtle nuances and acoustic aspects are heard and recognized you can't un-hear them.

And 'old ears' have the experience to know WHAT to listen to and for.
Besides as you have pointed out, it's not about frequency response or being able to hear all of that last octave in the top end.
It is about being able to resolve and then integrate the whole of the midrange (where the fundamentals are generated) and so enhance our ability to hear INTO the music, that is, at least for me, where the meaning and 'power' of music is found.

JJ


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## johnjen (Mar 9, 2018)

So the system has settled down and stabilized enough so I decided to try to hear the differences between up sampling vs down sampling via my AOIP feeding my Jggy dac.

I have been using the 44.1 sample rate as the standard and if needed, down sampling anything required to that setting for some time now.

So I grabbed a few 192 and 176 files and ran them 'native', then down sampled them to 88.2 and again down to 44.1.

And the lower I down sampled the 2 high rate files, the better they sounded.
Which might sound a bit counter intuitive on the surface.

But the Jggy was built to maximize 44.1 sample rate files as it's priority, so feeding it these type of files would optimize it's operation.
Which is what I'm getting.

Now to be sure the differences are very small, like at the threshold of perceptibility or a bit above, but if I can tweak my SQ just by shifting my sample rate, that is like a free upgrade or mod just by adjusting my s/w settings.

JJ

ps I'm working on a 2-3 part paper on power delivery with color photographs and readouts and numbers and stuff.  
All I'm missing are a few power measurements and some additional comparisons etc.


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> So the system has settled down and stabilized enough so I decided to try to hear the differences between up sampling vs down sampling via my AOIP feeding my Jggy dac.
> 
> I have been using the 44.1 sample rate as the standard and if needed, down sampling anything required to that setting for some time now.
> 
> ...



From Mike Moffat May 2017
"The megaburrito filter is unique in the D to A world. It is designed for the reproduction of redbook material above all else"

I've been aware of this approach since before I got my Yggy in 2015, and remain thrilled with my 99% redbook rips. However, it does seem funny that "messing with" higher bit rate files as you describe doesn't seem to damage them. It would seem logical to process everything natively? Interesting.


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## NorCal

Probably a dumb question, with an obvious answer, but this is something I've wondered about. 
If one was designing a power amp that would need a 1:1 transformer, so that the pre-rectified AC voltage is equal to the line voltage, why use a transformer at all? Seems like this would be a major savings in costs, and the weight of the amplifier. [I realize that some amps need to step up the voltages, but if not ... ].


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## Golfnutz

johnjen said:


> So the system has settled down and stabilized enough so I decided to try to hear the differences between up sampling vs down sampling via my AOIP feeding my Jggy dac.
> 
> I have been using the 44.1 sample rate as the standard and if needed, down sampling anything required to that setting for some time now.
> 
> ...



Something I noticed with my system is as the sample rate goes down, the latency goes up.

With 44.1/16 my latency is 1.8msec, and using a 176.4/24 sample rate, it drops down into 900-999usec. IOW, latency has almost doubled when using 44.1/16.

It would be very difficult for anyone to sit down and tell me what sample rate they were listening to at any point in time, with say a 15 minute break in between  As far as I can tell it would be a complete guess. You might notice some differences doing an A/B within seconds to a couple of minutes. But walking in cold to a room and listening to music, I doubt anyone would be able to duplicate the results repeatedly. I also doubt latency has any affect other than making sure the music is flowing without dropouts.

JJ, I agree with your comments on the 'Rednet' thread, that focusing on the latency isn't going/shouldn't improve anything with a simple two channel system - only in a network system where there's so much going on that the RN Pci/e card is a requirement.


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## johnjen (Mar 10, 2018)

I agree, latency in the amounts we are seeing, in our very simple networks, seems to be a non issue, especially with readings in the ≈1ms ± range.

And I also agree that these differences, in just sample rates for instance, taken singularly, are rather slight and not night and day changes.
However…
All of these various tweaks when taken together, as the sum of all of them, results in rather obvious and very welcome and enticing changes for the better.

And my sub 1ms reading (997µs) is at 44.1ms and when I switch to 192KB files I get slightly lower (970's to 980's µs) readings.
So yes the highest sample rates do have lower latency readings, but not by all that much.
But it does make my imagination step up and try and figure what is happening all the same.

JJ


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## johnjen

gefski said:


> snip
> I've been aware of this approach since before I got my Yggy in 2015, and remain thrilled with my 99% redbook rips. However, it does seem funny that "messing with" higher bit rate files as you describe doesn't seem to damage them. It would seem logical to process everything natively? Interesting.


Messing with higher bit rate files has always struck me as a potential problem, and the best I could hope for was that there wasn't any degradation to the SQ.

This 'concern' was effectively 'put to rest' with the Jggy since it LIKES the lowest bit rate files more so than the higher bit rate files.
And granted not in every instance but the preponderance of those high SR files are not adversely affected by down sampling them to 44.1.
And the parentage of those high SR files is always a question, and often with uncertain or questionable answers.

This makes it much simpler to NOT have to fuss with switching sample rates on the fly while using my AOIP system (which is a bit of a PIA).
Instead I perform the SR down sampling in JRiver, and they do seem to handle all of this in DSP very well.

And I figure its ALWAYS better to discard data than to create data all based upon a mathematical model, especially when you can divide by zero and not collapse the known universe, doing so.   

JJ


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## johnjen

NorCal said:


> Probably a dumb question, with an obvious answer, but this is something I've wondered about.
> If one was designing a power amp that would need a 1:1 transformer, so that the pre-rectified AC voltage is equal to the line voltage, why use a transformer at all? Seems like this would be a major savings in costs, and the weight of the amplifier. [I realize that some amps need to step up the voltages, but if not ... ].


Very few amps use 60 volt rails as the basis for their design.
And transformers can act as a buffer of sorts between the ac source and the diode bridge, which is a good thing as it tends to keep the diode bridge from letting ALL of their smoke out and perhaps crispy crittering the board itself.

And this buffering can also limit the very fast high voltage spikes that can sometimes 'sneak' in, which would do bad things to those very same diodes.

Just a thought or 2.

JJ


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## johnjen (Mar 17, 2018)

Golfnutz said:


> snip
> JJ, I agree with your comments on the 'Rednet' thread, that focusing on the latency isn't going/shouldn't improve anything with a simple two channel system - only in a network system where there's so much going on that the RN Pci/e card is a requirement.


I really wonder about the reports of better SQ from the Rednet PCIe ethernet card.
But not enough to want to spend 1K$ to find out.

And really Rednet doesn't have SQ as the highest of priorities in the 1st place, which sorta makes me wonder what would happen IF they decided to optimized their h/w and s/w with that goal in mind.

It kinda makes me go hmmmmmmmmmm…

JJ
ps I just received an ac power meter and I made myself a pair of dummy loads to run my Mojo amp all the way up to clipping to monitor various operational parameters (peak current, current flow duration, power used, etc).  Thus far the results I'm seeing are insightful and providing much food for thought.


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## Golfnutz (Mar 17, 2018)

When Focusrite Customer Support receives questions about latency issues, including RN PCIE/R cards, I would imagine this is what their mind is seeing (pic below). Not some guy sitting at home in front of his 2 channel system listening to Pink Floyd being feed from a PC with a Rednet device.
Source - http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/europ...g/audio_quality/chapter5/05_absolute_latency/






Results of audio latency problems - *Dropouts, clicks, and pops*.
Source: http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon





Nothing I've found on the internet indicates the better the latency, the better the source will sound, or vise versa.

What do you think the answer would be if you asked a recording engineer what good latency sounds like?
I bet it would have nothing to do with the stuff we perceive as good audio (i.e. better soundstage, bass, imaging, etc.).

I'm not sure I agree with your priorities about SQ. Have you compared your computer source + Rednet (without any Mutec external devices) with a really good CD transport system?
If I want a point of reference, sometimes I use my Teac VRDS 25 as a transport only to my DAC, and it's amazing how close it sounds to my PC + D16 at 44.1/16.
How much different would you expect the SQ to be using the very best PC + AOIP system feeding a DAC, than the very best CD transport available today feeding the same DAC?

The other thing I forgot to mention is there may be more data coming from the source than we already know. By simply changing the amp, you may experience better resolution, details, imaging, bass, etc. that we didn't know already existed. Same for speakers or DAC's. IOW, all the focus shouldn't just be on the source.


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## johnjen (May 13, 2018)

Yeah latency for us in our setups is a non issue as far as I can tell.
Our use of the Dante network is so simple and we are such a minor blip on their radar that I don't expect that SQ would ever be a priority for them, at least until they decided to add us as a market for them to address.

As for trying a CD player, I have a McCormick UDP-1 transport which I have used in a comparison with my (at the time) tweako USB feed.

The difficulty for me in using a cd player straight into my dac is, it bypasses my entire DSP setup in JRiver which is an integral part of my setup.
For example I have adjusted the channel balance by 1.5dB in the DSP stack, which alone makes a substantial difference in the very bottom end let alone the stereo image using speakers.
And that is but one of 6 other adjustments I am using to dial in my setup.

Even so while the CD player was nice and all, by itself it didn't measure up then and now with the substantial improvement that my tweaked AOIP setup provides, the gap is even greater.

As for Focusrite aiming at SQ as a priority, they are aimed at the commercial/professional audio market, which is in full evidence by their choice of the power supplies they use, (SMPS) vs LPS's. 
They are WAY less expensive and create far less heat etc. 
But are not optimal for SQ, not by a long shot.
This is but one indication of where we as audiophools would (and do) make modifications to improve the SQ of their gear with satisfying results.

I see the changing of gear, like in your example the amp, as a way of reducing or (hopefully) eliminating *CP's* (Choke Points), which in turn allows more of the original signal to pass thru the entire system and then be delivered to our ears.
But if the source alters the signal to begin with, there is very little that can be done downstream to 'correct' those alterations.
The same can be said for any link in the chain of course, but the signal source (and any transducers) are usually the most critical in this regard.

And any time a signal is transformed from one form to another (digital to analog, electrical to acoustic etc.) that is potentially where the greatest gains in terms of removing *CP's* is also to be found.
Assuming of course that these alterations can be identified and addressed directly, which isn't always the case.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 1, 2018)

So my latest tweaks involve dithering and the new Dekoni ear pads for the HD800.

Another thread was talking about the use of dithering as a way of randomizing the noise generated by dacs when they choose the value for the LSB (Least Significant Bit).
Essentially this a mathematical 'trick' to help reduce noise created when reconstructing the analog waveform.
So I figured I'd play around with the 3 settings in Media Center that control the 2 types of dithering that can be added, or not (as in turned off).
And after fussing with the controls I settled upon the option of not adding any dithering as giving me the '*better*' SQ.

This tends to run counter to the 'accepted' norm of using dithering to 'hide' patterns that can heard as added noise.
Except that what I hear after turning off dithering, is added detail and spatial cues that I deem as 'better'.

And granted these changes aren't big, indeed they are close to the ToP (Threshold of Perceptability) and as such many may not choose this option.
But for me it does add just that much more REALNESS.

And my next tweak is, when massdrop offered them, I ordered a pair of the Dekoni fenestrated sheepskin earpads for my 800's, which arrived yesterday, so I yanked my nearly new stock pads off and installed the new Dekoni's and have been listening to my 800s using them ever since.
And one mod that many seem to make is to cut out the inner dust barrier from these pads.
I'll make that mod after I acclimatize to the changes these pads make in stock form, and then swap back to stock pads to get a better understanding of the changes.

Thus far what I am hearing is a 'push back' as in the soundstage has receded away from me a bit.
Also the bass has a softer leading edge to it and it seems like I'm missing some details, most likely small signal aspects of the acoustic presentation.

This test, going back to stock after making a change, is needed in this case especially, due to the subtle nature of the changes these pads make.
And this test will help determine what is '*better*' for me in my system.

But I can see that for some these pads may help tame aspects that 'stick out' and so this is may be a way of 'rounding off the sharp edges', so to speak.

And in my case my 800's are by no means stock.

Here are 3 examples of a nearly stock 800, my 'B' set of 800's and my primary 'A' set of 800's
These 3 examples are showing, with a greatly expanded in the time domain, leading edge of their respective square wave responses.
The time domain (the horizontal axis) has been expanded to near the resolution of the bit depth of the adc used to capture the analog signal from the microphone.

First up is the 20Hz square wave used to drive the amp.



Next I'll show all three graphs in close proximity, then explain what your looking at.





The top graph is my majorly modded Gen-4 800's.
These are hardwired and are the 4th generation of a series of tweaks I've been working on for a while now.
They use the SAA balanced cable with a rhodium 4pin XLR connector.

The middle graph is my early 'B' set of 800's that have minimal mods that include a cryo'd mondo gauge set of balanced cables (that will be hardwired during the next round of mods) that also have a rhodium 4 pin xlr connector, and the protective screens on the outside of the driver have been removed.

The bottom graph is a set of 800's with the Anax mod and that have been hardwired as well.

One way to view these graphs is to follow the line (the trailing edge) that descends off to the right, and extend it up and to the left until it reaches the leading edge of the square wave signal.
Notice how that line changes it's relative position with respect to what a square wave should look like, when you compare these 3 different responses.

Another way to perceive these graphs is to see how much 'overshoot' and 'undershoot' exists on the leading edge of the response of the diaphragm to the square wave driving it, with respect to that line that descends off to the right (the trailing edge of the response) if it were continued all the way to the leading edge the same as the description above.

I'm close to adding the next gen of mods to both my primary ('A' set) and my 'B' set of 800's, and then taking more measurements to see what results this next attempt will yield.

I'm hoping it'll be Gen-5.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 1, 2018)

So I succumbed to swapping out the Dekoni's back to my fairly new stock pads.
I mean what I was hearing was nice and all, but the more I listened the more I knew I wasn't getting everything in terms of focus and depth and inner detail etc. that my system was capable of delivering.
I KNEW that there was more there, there, than what was being presented.

So I fussed and learned how to remove these fairly easy to install pads.
Which weren't as easy to remove I might add…

Immediately the impact of all percussion returned with proper leading edge dynamics, and obviously so.
The same with the degree of focus and inner detail and REALNESS, all returned to levels that were missing.
To the extent that I could say that the 'moisture on their breath' returned.

And yes the soundstage also stopped being 'pushed back' and was more immediate and 4d.
IOW more evenly spaced in 3d and stable thru time (the 4th d).

I figure they might just be the perfect way to smooth out the delivery of music for those who might find this makes for 'better' in their system.
And they are very comfortable even though the total contact area is many times greater than the stock pads.

Perhaps I'll cut out the inner dust shields and try them again.
I figure they should make them at least 1/2 the thickness, perhaps even less.
Which might be why the stock pads are so thin to begin with.

But for now, I just wanna enjoy it as my system grabs me and my feet and head start danc'n in place (*HB&W - T3)*

JJ


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## gefski

So the Dekonis are at best a side grade, depending on system. I have seen more comments of late leaning toward sticking with (new or nearly new) stock pads on many cans. But trying stuff is finding out!

On a different topic, there is an interesting dac out there from Border Patrol. R2R, non-oversampling, focused on Redbook. Most interesting for this group, I think, is the major emphasis on power supply quality, including a tube RECTIFIER. Right, the tube is not in the analog stage -- as several dacs & cd players have done. $1350 for best power supply and one input. No AES input though for Dante fans.


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## johnjen

Well I only tried the one set, the Fenestrated Sheepskin version.
Even so I think most of the reduction of those valued aspects that were affected is due to the volume of these earpads.
Which is why I figure reducing their girth by at least 1/2 (or more) seems like a good place to start.

But I gotta say I'm glad to be hearing the full acoustic presentation, again.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 2, 2018)

And for those who may not be aware of this post I recently made.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-2069#post-14143952
And there are  a few subsequent posts as well.

This is a teaser for the paper I'm writing about power flow into our gear.

JJ


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## gefski

Your "veil lifting" got em' going!


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## Golfnutz (Apr 30, 2018)

Thought I'd post this here instead of the Rednet thread since it's a DIY thing.

Reading around on the internet, there's some thought that using 100mb/s has less noise than 1gb/s.

So I changed the pcie setting in Windows to 100mb/s and had no issues at all (latency didn't change at all either). I'm not sure I could tell any difference between the two (100mb/s vs 1gb/s).

This lead me to my next step. Why not try making an Ethernet cable using pins 1,2,3, and 6 from pure silver (Neotech PTFE SOST 22awg). Used a drill to make the twisted wires (fairly tight). Forgot to mention, I also added 1/4" tinned copper shielding.

Well I'll be damned. It turned out to be a very nice tweek. Most noticeable were the improvements in the upper frequencies.


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## johnjen (Apr 30, 2018)

gefski said:


> Your "veil lifting" got em' going!


And speaking of veil lifting…  

I swapped out the duplex receptacles in my isolation transformer with Synergistic Black receptacles (yeah those stupidly expensive ones).
And yet another veil, I didn't even know was there, dropped away, and they haven't even fully settled in.

I've also noticed that the pattern of SQ morphing and changing as the hours accumulate due to the new addition to the system, has also changed.
What is happening now is the degree of change of the SQ dropping down to (near) Toilet Dump (*TD*) SQ, to the new *'better'* than the previous high water mark, has narrowed and in a big way.

This is where the term *IDMA* (It Doesn't Matter Anymore) comes into play.
The new pattern of SQ changes has reduced the *TD* type of SQ to being almost nonexistent, while the improvements standout all the more.
IOW the 'dynamic range' of the bad to good has narrowed, all the while the SQ continues to rise.
This in turn means I no longer have to 'suffer' (most assuredly a 1st world problem  ) thru *TD* episodes and instead anytime I focus on the music the SQ is simply lovely or even *'better'*.

This change is nearly enough to where I may be able to cease making daily audio log entries of the changes in SQ in my system.
But it does evince that I can simplify the format of documenting these changes from 12hr intervals to 24hr.
This will make the format much easier to maintain.

I see this as an overall indication of improvement and lessening of the need to have to pay attention to how bad is bad, while focusing more on the improvements.
I call this a win-win-win!

JJ


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## johnjen (May 14, 2018)

Golfnutz said:


> Thought I'd post this here instead of the Rednet thread since it's a DIY thing.
> 
> Reading around on the internet, there's some thought that using 100mb/s has less noise than 1gb/s.
> 
> ...


That is EXCELLENT!

Silver, due to it's ability to handle high frequencies 'better' than copper, should be an excellent wire to use in these applications.
I know that silver does a better job when I use it for my AES cables.

And in another turn of events my cable cooker now has ethernet cable adapters so I can cook cat 5-6 cables.
It will be an interesting experiment to cook my extremely short 'stubby' cat 5e cables (6" & 9") that I'm using for the TP Link optical isolation that feeds from my Mac to the Rednet 3.
And since I also cook my USB cables and have noticed a significant improvement, it will be interesting to find out if the ethernet cables yield similar results.

JJ


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## johnjen

Another change I have noticed recently is…

After ≈ 8-10 minutes of listening, my perceptual proclivity, or acuity, or resolution, or the cohesion of the sonic image, kicks into overdrive.
SQ goes *Whole-istic*  aka, Hear Everything (*HE*) & all acoustic energy is moar coherent and coupled with and to itself - in a 4D Holographic way.
i.e. the acoustic image created in my minds eye accounts for everything, all created energy, and 
is whole as a complete sonic image should be, and
incorporates and integrates all generated acoustic energy.

This energy is perceived as more completely bonded and coupled where and when it should be, and especially, is NOT present where it shouldn't be.

JJ


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## johnjen (May 14, 2018)

Status report 5/14/18…

I sent my Jggy in for the upgrade and so I swapped it out for my backup PWD dac.

The differences between them were rather immediately apparent.
And thus far I have got ≈ 80hrs on the PWD and it is settling in, stabilizing and improving nicely.

However the differences remain, albeit they are lessening in magnitude.

What I noticed is the D/S dac (the PWD) is a very good, to great, simulation.
A high resolution best guess approximation.

The Multibit dac (the Jggy) is a non-simulation.
It is high resolution, resolved.
It is much closer to analog but without analogs limitations, such as limited dynamic range, increased noise floor, wow and flutter, drop outs, etc.

And the bass from the PWD is slightly better in terms of the *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact).
Which is confirmation of what I noticed when I first started using the Jggy.
And as I have read from others and previously mentioned, the changes made to the Jggy's v.2 analog output circuitry seems to have addressed this issue, both by measurement and as noted by experience.

Now granted these differences are not night and day, nor smack you upside the head obvious, but they are quite noticeable TO ME.
Mostly because this is the only system I listen to, and do so day in and day out for hours on end.
As a result I am very familiar with what this system is capable of, since I have been repeatedly re-*calibrated* by this system for many years now.

This *calibration*, or degree of familiarity, should be a common enough experience for most of us who read these words.
This allows us to more easily notice what (if any) differences are heard, and to come to know which of the changes are ‘better’,
or not,
and why we think so.

JJ


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## shyamwanne (May 19, 2018)

johnjen said:


> Well I only tried the one set, the Fenestrated Sheepskin version.



I tried both the Fenestrated and Standard (no little holes) Sheepskin Dekoni pads, and agree that the Fenestrated did not improve the sound.   However, using the standard solid sheepskin pads without the stock dust shield proved to greatly improve detail, dynamics and soundstage.   It was not a subtle improvement over the stock pads with stock dust shield.   This has been my setup now for the last month and I can't imagine going back.     Just thought I'd share incase you wanted to experiment further


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## johnjen

I did wonder if the the non fenestrated version would be much if any different from the 'standard' set.
Thanks for the observations, perhaps I'll get a chance to order up another set and try them.

JJ


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## shyamwanne

JJ, I’m curious if you ever tested the Synergistic Black Receptacle against the Furutech GTX-D NCF.   I seem to be always chasing that extra bit of veil lifting that you mention too!  Ha ha


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## johnjen

No I haven't.
For me fuses and duplex receptacles are the only things Synergistic Research offers that I'm interested in.
But those 2 items do a really good job in my system.

But that isn't to say the furutech receptacle isn't at the same level, but when you get to these levels (and beyond) of $$$ for the 'simple stuff' my desire to experiment and compare different flavors of these do-dads starts to wane.
As in do I spend $$$ on them or on other experiments that are unexplored, by me at least.

Like, my cable cooker is getting an upgrade of sorts as I'm adding the ability to cook ethernet cables, and perhaps more significantly, be able to cook my power cables ground connections instead of just the hot and neutral circuits.

This purportedly is a big step up and what with my other experiments with the ground circuit, and the positive results I've seen thus far, this new ability to improve the performance of the ground circuit intrigues me.

JJ


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## BIG POPPA

I have. Had both a year or so. If your piece of gear sounds dull, get the furutech, it will help bring it back to life. If it sounds artificial, maybe a little irritating get the synergistic Research Black. It will bring a more organic tone. Keep in mind my gear has black fuses also. All my gear is cabled up very nicely. 


shyamwanne said:


> JJ, I’m curious if you ever tested the Synergistic Black Receptacle against the Furutech GTX-D NCF.   I seem to be always chasing that extra bit of veil lifting that you mention too!  Ha ha


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## shyamwanne

Thats a great explanation Big Pappa!    Great seeing you at the Seattle meet too!



BIG POPPA said:


> If your piece of gear sounds dull, get the furutech, it will help bring it back to life. If it sounds artificial, maybe a little irritating get the synergistic Research Black. It will bring a more organic tone. Keep in mind my gear has black fuses also.


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## shyamwanne

Thanks for you reply JJ, and now you got me really wondering about cable cooking.  I've been curious for some time if cooking the cables makes a bigger improvement than just playing music for 150 hours or so.   What cooker do you use, and have you found it to improve your listening experience?   



johnjen said:


> my cable cooker is getting an upgrade of sorts as I'm adding the ability to cook ethernet cables, and perhaps more significantly, be able to cook my power cables ground connections instead of just the hot and neutral circuits.


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## johnjen

I use the AudioDharma CableCooker.
It's an industrial strength device that has proven itself to me over the years.
https://www.thecablecooker.com/

It makes an obvious and immediate difference to every cable I have ever cooked.
Yeah they are spendy and can take from a single day to several days to cook cables depending upon the wire gauge, but the improvements are compelling, at least for me in my system and it would seem many others as well.

I'm about due to recook all my cables rather than wait until the SQ falls off.
But I'll wait until I get my Jggy back and it has settled in so I have a good handle on the net effect of the upgrade, THEN cook my cables, for the icing on the cake…

And it still takes several hundred hours after cooking for the cables to fully settle in.
But the net changes are quite remarkable.

JJ


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## BIG POPPA

IMHO, to get the most out of the cable you have now. Send it to get Cryo'd first then think about cooking it. If you cook it first, Cryo'ing it will undo that process. Most of my cable's are already Cryo'd. Prefer that sound.


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## johnjen (May 21, 2018)

I just posted this over in the Jggy thread
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-546#post-14254433
It might come in handy for someone.

Also, my system is now capable of delivering an *IVBR* experience, upon demand.
*IVBR*?  
(In-Voluntary Blink Response) is where the acoustic presentation is so powerful and fast and sudden, and that what triggers it happens so fast, the eyes blink autonomically.

Usually it's a percussive '*voice*' like a cannon or gun of some sort, but thunder and even dropped large heavy metal objects (chains, blocks etc.) are also fast enough to start and stop before you even know they happened.

It's an interesting experience to catch yourself blinking, but knowing it wasn't a voluntary choice, due to listening to tunes.

JJ


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## HerrXRDS

I have a hybrid IEM, 2DD+1BA. The wiring is all messed up. Not even the same on both sides so I'll have to redo it. I can see on the DD which pole is positive and which negative so that's good, I'll also have to switch the resistor for the BA on the positive wire. One problem I have though, I have no idea what's the correct polarity on the BA. Does it matter if the BA wires are reversed? From my understanding it doesn't really matter for higher frequencies. Is this correct?


----------



## johnjen

As long as both drivers are wired for the same polarity then for the mids and up there shouldn't be much, if any, audible difference.
And depending upon what player you are using, some of them will let you reverse the absolute polarity for both channels to determine if one absolute polarity is 'better' than the other.  
I hear these differences mostly in the very low bass.

I hope this helps

JJ


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## johnjen

Late the night before (5/24 at 4am) I finished adding the Gen-5 mod to my 800's.
At first I was thinking, 'is there any difference?, is this 'better'?, because it didn't sound like it'.

Then after about 10-15 minutes I thought "wait what was that?" I don't remember hearing that before.
Then after about 35-45 minutes I heard the acoustic presentation become a bit more *Cohesive* and *Coherent*.
Then the *I5* (Intelligibility) stepped up a notch as I could hear the words sung more distinctly and clearly.

Then after ≈1hr it became rather obvious that I had achieved Gen-5 performance, and that's when *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) kicked in big time as did *Coupling* which also enhanced all the *C3* (Coherence, Cohesion, Coupling) factors along with,
*T3 *(Toe Tapping Time)
*HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving)
*S/S*  Spooky/Scary
*REALNESS
HMMAIAA*  (Hearing My Music As If Anew Again)
*HE* (Hearing Everything)
*LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact)
It was 6am when I went to bed.

And listening this morning, ≈8hrs later, these changes have settled in nicely and become a bit more pronounced, which if the patterns of the past hold up, they should remain for the rest of the day.
Then the settling in process should continue it's usual pattern.

And no I haven't measured this gen-5 mod yet, but will do so in due course.
But next up is to fully mod my 'B' set of 800's up to this Gen-5 level. 
And this latest iteration is less tedious which makes it even easier to implement than the previous generations.

Which means that once I measure this Gen-5 mod and finish my write up, I'll post the specifics of this quest to more fully dial in my 800's.

JJ


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## HerrXRDS

Does this look right or is the wiring all messed up? Should I remove the 12 ohm resistor to bring mids forward?


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## johnjen

I'm not even sure what I'm looking at to be able to comment.
Could you label all of the parts shown in the diagram, and let us know what this circuit is?

I could make a bunch of assumptions, but I've learned that course of action usually leads to even more confusion.

JJ


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## HerrXRDS

It's a chinese 2DD + 1BA ZS6 copy. It's the second pair I got, first one had the wiring so messed up and the contacts melted so bad, it wasn't even worth trying to fix so I returned it. This one has good looking soldering work, but I don't think the wiring is quite right. It's diffrent from the first pair, and why would they put the resistor on the negative? I keep trying cause it sounds very good as is, was wondering if it can be improved even more, like bring the vocals up even more. Bass very responsive, highs perfect, but the mids are a little recessed, not by much. The diagram shows a 10mm dynamic driver, a 6mm dynamic and a balanced armature plus two resistors. Not sure if there's a cap on the ba though cause I don't have full access.


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## johnjen

Ah, so it's a pair of headphones with 3 drivers, (I don't know what "2DD + 1BA ZS6" is).
They are all running full range and use fixed resistors to match the output levels to each other.
And you want to increase the mid range driver's output with respect to the bass and 'tweeter'.

Removing the resistor in series with the 6mm driver would probably be WAY to much of a change, but the only way to tell would be to try it.
My guess would be to reduce it by 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 (use a 9Ω or 8Ω or 6Ω resistor) instead, or perhaps an even a smaller value resistor would work in order to achieve your desired outcome.

But keep in mind that you'll also probably have to fuss with the resistor in series with the 'tweeter' (balanced armature driver) as well, in order to keep them in relative balance with each other.

And it doesn't really matter if the resistors in series with the drivers, are on the positive or negative side of the driver, since it's their combined load that determines their relative output level with respect to the 2 other drivers.

IOW you'll just have to try different values of resistors to see if you can better match their respective output levels to meet your expectations.

And be prepared to have unexpected consequences arise as you fuss with trying to achieve a better balance.

JJ


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## HerrXRDS

Thank you. You are right, took it out and is way much of a change, now the 6mm sounds too harsh. I'll have to order a bunch resistors, bypass the wiring to some type of socket connector and play around with different values till I find the one I like.


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## johnjen (May 30, 2018)

*The HD-800 a headphone ahead of its time.
And the ‘need’ for modifications, common assumptions, and my different approach and results.*

When the 800’s were first released it was a love/hate relationship with many users.
Some couldn’t stand them as they were to ‘bright’ or had a ‘hard edge’ or the top end was ‘strident’ etc.

And at the time the 6.5KHz spike in FR was pointed out as the culprit for these problems.
And so those who figured they could ‘tame’ these problems went about devising several generations of modifications to address these issues.

Along the way I tried them all and after much playing around and trying various different materials and techniques I was sorta satisfied with the results.

That is until I found SAA (Stephan Audio Arts) and subsequently had my 800’s modified and hardwired.
This whole approach opened my eyes to what was and wasn’t going on.
That isn’t to say it became completely clear what was going on, but it is to say, at least for me, it was obvious that the single issue of that 6.5KHz ’spike’ wasn’t the real source of the problem.
Because the results were so far superior to any of the other attempts I had made, there was no turning back.

And along the way I discovered that listener fatigue (I call it* tLFF* or *t*he*L*istener*F*atigue*F*actor) WAS a contributor to all of this.
And in addition, how important the upstream gear was, and how well setup it was, were also key elements, in not just taming the 800’s, but in allowing them to ‘sing’ as it were.
They are after all only going to create the signal based upon what is fed to them.
And with the tweaks I am using, the upstream system is even more critical in achieving my goal of just listening to music and for ‘the system’ itself to disappear, or as I like to put it, “get the system out of its own way”.

But there were a couple of issues that 800’s have, that could be addressed based upon all of the work I had performed from those previous generations of mods that were, at the time, the mainstay of the available solutions to the 800.
And a significant contributor learned from those previous mods, to improving the 800’s, was dealing with the ‘trapazoid’ and it’s surrounding ‘wings’.

But the SAA mods also showed me a few other related physical modifications that were also very helpful.
Such as removing the ‘protective screen’ that is on the outside of the ear cups that covers the drivers.

And then there are those ‘special’ connectors Sennheiser uses.
Ever since I first examined my 800’s and saw those tiny pins that were used in the connectors for each driver, I knew I was going to hardwire them, which also made a significant improvement as well.
Of course choosing a suitable replacement cable was another contributor to getting the most out of my 800’s.

In short, in my experiments and research, the much maligned 6.5KHz spike wasn’t the real problem after all.

Because you see, the SAA mods had NO dampening material in the earcups and the degree of listener fatigue was reduced WAY down, all based upon how the drivers were secured to the ear cup assemblies, along with the removal of the external protective screen, and being hardwired.

This got me to wondering if these changes would be revealed using any of the available testing procedures.

So I contacted Tyll at InnerFidelity to see if he would measure them, and he agreed.
This stared my investigations in earnest as I now had measurements of the changes from stock with which to compare to my modded pair of 800’s.

And indeed I did find one specific test that connected up the dots I was looking at, and
that was related to listener fatigue, and,
that ‘opened up’ the 800’s, as was revealed by the SAA mods.

That test was the 20 or 30Hz square wave test.
I could have used the impulse test, but the square wave test was more revealing and useful, since it showed the *I*nitial *L*eading *E*dge *R*esponse (*ILER*), that was of particular interest to me.

What I began to realize was,
the overshoot of that leading edge WAS the primary source of the listener fatigue,
and the *LEDI* *L*eading *E*dge *D*ynamic *I*mpact, was the source of the improvement that the SAA mod made, that was so compelling.

So as I continued to experiment and make other modifications to my 800’s, I began to zero in on optimizing that *ILER*, because I realized that the use of leading edge overshoot, which is very common, was not optimal.

And as I further refined my approach to dialing in my mod, the better my 800’s sounded, and,
the closer to ideal that was to the original signal, and,
the more I didn’t want nor need to make any further changes.

All I wanted to do was to just listen to music.

To me, this was a VERY good sign, that I was on the right track.
Not to mention a major step in achieving my goal of listening to music and not ‘the system’ itself.
And this pattern was repeated several times and the ‘need’ to further modify (other than by sheer curiosity) grew weaker after each new generation was achieved.
I took this as an even better sign, that I’m on the right track, and I’m further dialing in my approach.

So my conclusion is the ‘solution’ to the maximizing the 800’s involves the entire system that drives them, which isn’t exactly a new idea by itself.
But tweaking the *ILER* waveform to more closely match the step response input, helps optimize these tweaks to the 800’s with wonderful and surprising results.

So I kept diving deeper and deeper down this rabbit hole and when I purchased a set of ears (3dio head simulator) my efforts sped up considerably as I didn’t have to wait for measurements, I could make a change and then run those mods and see how the variables I was juggling told me whether what I did brought me closer in achieving my goal of dialing in that *ILER*, or not.

So the full *VMC* mod (*V*ibration *M*anagement *C*ontrol) involves the 3 aforementioned tweaks (hardwired cable, external screen removal, trapazoid treatment), plus what I have come up with as my tweak (*VMC*), which together all make up this mod.

And in principle it’s amazingly easy to describe what my *VMC* tweak involves, at least in general terms.

Take the metal inner mounting 'clamp ring' (my terminology) off, coat the metal side with dampening material, then mount it in reverse, with the new dampening material ‘down’ into the driver and it’s mounting structure.

Put it all back together and then listen.
Give them at least 1 hour of operation to settle in before any critical evaluation, after all you just disassembled the entire driver mounting assembly and then changed it.
And depending upon the state of tweak of your system, as mentioned above, this initial period of improvement may only last for several hours before morphing, only to return as they continue to settle in.

And as the saying goes, ‘the devil is in the details’, and this project has plenty of them buried in the many many small little details in the actual implementation of this tweak.
But those details are the very same ones it has taken so long to ferret out, coupled with learning what aspects of re-assembly are important etc.
Not to mention the various types of dampening material etc.

Like I said, in principle it’s easy to describe, but the doing and achieving of optimal results, is much more involved.
That isn’t to say an experienced DIY’r can’t implement all 4 of these tweaks in this mod, its not rocket science.
And let me add, this change to the 'clamp ring', can be easily reverted back to stock by simply reversing the 'clamp ring' again, as in a before and after test of sorts.

And as I posted, this final tweak to my 800’s, the Gen-5 level of performance, is settling in nicely.
So in Part 2 of this report I am going to release more of the details I use to achieve my results, along with the measurements and a few pics of the tweaks themselves.

It will take a bit of time, because 1st I want to fully mod my 2nd pair of 800’s, my ‘B’ set, so I will have 2 fully modded pairs of 800’s to measure and compare to each other.


JJ


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## johnjen

So now I've completed the task of implementing a full *VMC* mod to my secondary 'B' set of 800's, and I'm listening to them as I type this.
I have ≈ 8hrs on them and they are morphing quite rapidly (comparatively speaking) but still continue to surprise me with the amount of the SQ step up.

I'm already hearing nuances and harmonic structure changes specifically to acoustic based instruments (guitars, horns, drums etc.) that sound more like an acoustic resonator 'box' with vibrating strings exciting it, or a metal horn moving air thru it, or the thwack of the impact of being struck.
To me this means the resonant structure I'm hearing is of a wooden box with tuned strings, harmonically energetically exciting it all, is more true to its origins.
It is more evident that the sharp edge and the sound of air moving thru a metal horn, is closer to sounding exactly like that.
That the visceral hit that any percussive impact actually delivers is being felt as much as being heard.
Thru headphones.

And all this on my PWD dac.
And I figure when my JggyB settles in, the level of inner detail etc, will be off the charts, as in the previous 100% will be handily eclipsed.

Because it is at these levels of performance where the signal source has the greatest degree of impact upon the delivered acoustic presentation.
Because when the entire system allows as much as possible, of ALL of the original signal to be presented, to be heard, AND minimizes adding/smearing any 'extra' acoustic energy where it doesn't belong, THEN essentially the 'system' disappears, and all that remains is the music.

And now with my 800's about as dialed in as I can get them, along with the rest of the system all tweaked, I figure I'm in for some REALLY long nights as *SDSG* glues me into my listening chair.

Oh and my cable cooker can now cook the ground circuit (along with hot and neutral) in my power cables, which is in the process of being tested as I type this.

The fun just never stops.
Just like I like.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 10, 2018)

So was going to finish my 800 mod write up first, but this sorta jumped out at me that I could at least start this series.
And it is a long series, unless I cut it short and just post the conclusions, but the sequencing and unfolding of this story is flexible, based upon reactions and my desire to pour this much effort into all of this.
Because as it looks now I'll probably be posting this in like 6 or 7 parts if I break up the sections listed below, which are already long and there is more to add as I refine all of this.

So, on with these results of my investigations.

*Why DO power cables and such make ANY difference to our headphone gear?*

Yet another experiment focusing on power delivery and some not generally understood factors to consider.


*Part A Why Would I Want To Do This In The First Place?
Part 1 Theory and Expectations Based Upon My Initial Research
Part 2 Measured Results and Observations.
Part 3 Analysis and Conclusions.*


*Part A  Why Would I Want To Do This In The first Place?*
So first off, just what IS this all about, let alone why take the time and spend actual $$ to investigate a topic that is the subject of such consternation?

And I kept waiting to see if anyone else would venture down this path, a path that seemed kinda obvious to me, one that would help shed some light on this rather polarizing subject.
I mean I figured the Sound Science guys would have jumped on this already, just to get to the bottom of this.
But instead it’s an Audiophool who is jumping down this rabbit hole.
Imagine that!

But I WAS truly puzzled why changes to the power feed would, or even could, make much if any, let alone such a profound change, to the SQ. 
And in this case using gear that uses such small amounts of current, these sorts of effects just shouldn’t be that big a deal.
At least that is what the prevailing theories were informing everyone, was the case.
But that wasn’t what I observed, nor was it as simple as it first appeared.

Because after a while everytime I experimented I honed in on a combination of factors that made an obvious change to the overall SQ, but it wasn’t just change for changes sake.

No, indeed.
These steps resulted in ‘*Better*’ SQ and in ways that were very obvious to me.
They also helped me to define just what it meant to be ‘*better*’, vs. just a change, which is a critical factor in any investigation such as this.
And these changes provided enough motivation such that I kept track of theses changes over time and took notes in a journal as the hours accumulated.
And especially, all the attempts which resulted in no change, at all, were very helpful, in that they showed me what factors weren’t important, nor made any difference at all.
They saved me a whole bunch of time.

And after a while patterns emerged, certain types of SQ changes became describable and most importantly scaleable.
Meaning they were additive and after a while what was being subtracted from the acoustic presentation became as important as those, that were being added/changed to the experience.

This curiosity drove me to dive deeper into this end of the pool to see what I could see.
As such this is the second set of posts (The ASCC test results were a set, as was the investigation into fuses), that examines and addresses this issue and provides further context for the findings I’m presenting.

_*Electrifying Thoughts…*_

So for a while now I’ve been pondering the specifics of how our power supplies, the LPS variety not the SMPS type, actually couple with the live electrical grid, you know, the 120Vac 60Hz variety (US standard) and then how that power is actually transferred into its ‘reservoir’ to then be used by the active downstream load.

And I figured using my ‘spare’ amp , a Schiit 1st generation Mjolnir, which draws such a small amount of current, that cables and such really shouldn’t make much if any real difference to SQ.
Yet they did and still do.

And using it as a test device with its tiny amount of demand for power, would be a ‘worst case’ test scenario, to see if there were any measurable results that would be useful in my investigations.
Besides, it was available and I wasn’t planning on destroying the amp, even though I would have to modify it to be able to take the necessary measurements.

So the plan was formed and I knew it would require some cross corroboration from several different angles to zero in on what was going on.
And so I looked into fuses, and also how much current was available at the duplex receptacle (ASCC tests), and this new set of experiments looks at how the amp wants to be fed current.

And I’ll tie all of these different aspects together and see what the results are all pointing to.

End part A

Next up _*Part 1  Theory and Expectations Based Upon my Initial Research.*_

JJ


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## johnjen

A system status report.

Yesterday I finished cooking all of my cables except my AES cables, which I'll get to in the next couple of days.
They were re-installed with cleaned up contacts and with an oil change.
I also have ≈ 250hrs on my 'B' set of 800's and I figure by now I have over 1Khrs on my way over priced SR Black duplex receptacles.

The SQ has yet again taken a sizeable step up, everywhere and by every criteria I use to evaluate them.
And this is on my PWD dac, not my JggyB

When it arrives, I figure the combination of it and all of these newly introduced tweaks will take the SQ up yet another step.

Right now, as I type this it's hard to pin point the specific changes but collectively the overall acoustic presentation is *Whole-istic*, which is similar to *HE* (Hear Everything), but with even further reduced *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue) which results in more acoustic power with less volume which makes for even stronger *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) effects, (like seemingly falling asleep in my chair, until the album ends).

It could also be described by saying every *'voice'* is whole and complete and doesn't bleed into any other '*voice'* in either harmonic content, nor in time.
This is highlighted when duets are sung and both voices are similar in tonal structure, and especially when the background vocals are recessed.
This is where each voice is clearly evident and any voice can be followed with ease.
This is a level of focus and differentiation that makes the music compelling, and like *HE* (Hear Everything) where both everything heard 'belongs' to it's 'parent', and there is no acoustic energy that doesn't belong to that same parent.
IOW No smearing thru time of any aspect of each and every '*voice'*, nor interference or overlap between any of them as well.

It's like when you clean a window and do a perfect job such that the glass disappears, and there is no distortion, so what you see is shown with perfect clarity.
It's kinda like that.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So my JggyB is back and in my system.
And during the time, while using my PWD dac, several other changes to my system setup were also used, along with several different means of delivering the digital audio  signal, and I noticed an interesting pattern emerge.

Each time I took a step 'down' in gear (the PWD, using USB, vs SPDIF vs AES etc.) the changes weren't 'that bad', meaning, seemingly the SQ didn't deteriorate all that much and tunes were still enjoyable and engaging, still *T3* and *HB&W* and such, and they stayed that way.
But, when a step up was implemented, the changes were much more noticeable, but only after a while (10-20 minutes), and only then did those highly sought after nuances and refinements start to standout.
I went thru these sorts of shifts several times as different equipment and signal paths were employed and it was after that 10-20 minute 're-adjustment' period where those "nuances and refinements" were 'remembered'.

What this says to me is that, blind A/B testing has a fundamental imbalance/flaw inherently embedded within that testing modality.
And my guess is that this 10-20 minute 'delay' before the 'good stuff' is perceived again, is also a function of the ability of our internal auditory processing, and is not solely a matter of the equipment itself 'settling in'.
Which in turn implies that (relatively) quick A/B switching is inherently hampered by this disparity, which in turn would tend to favor the step down in SQ vs. the step up simply because the step up takes much more time to become evident.

This, in my mind helps to explain why the use of blind A/B testing is so often confusing and misleading.
Because if the changes that a step up vs step down need, are different (and the basic assumption all along has been they are equal), then the results are by definition 'tainted'.
And even if both the up and down steps were treated appropriately (to better determine which was which) 2 things would happen.
#1 the time before a sufficient determination could be made (10-20 minutes) would greatly lengthen the test which would effectively kill our short term memory (a key aspect of the test).
#2 and it would essentially 'tag' the 'better' choice simply because after that 10-20 minute 're-adjustment' period additional "nuances and refinements" would be give themselves away.
And this is predicated upon our ability to hear and recognize these differences of "nuances and refinements" to begin with.  

For me anyway these 'quick and dirty' sorts of tests seem to always have a weakness of some sort or other.
And as long as you are aware of them and take them into account, they can yield results of value, but when these foibles are either ignored or are simply not known, so that they aren't taken into account, they can, all to easily be a source of problematic results.

JJ


----------



## gefski

Great write-up, JJ. Reminds me of my recent "step back" to first few days of new Yggy-B (which I described as like a "good" $200 dac) after 3 yrs of almost daily listening to Yggy-A. 

And quickie a/b listening, as you point out, doesn't get us to the nuances that make the music "alive". It seems to be useful for people just starting out, as it shines a light on frequency response variations and aberrations (too bright, etc.).


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## johnjen

Thanks gefski.
It always bugged me that this generally help insistence of A/B-x'ng was the De-facto way to know what is 'better' from what is not.
Granted it can let you know fairly quickly if there are differences, but taking it to the next level of which is 'better' just always felt skewed.

And right now my JggyB is blossoming, *HMMAIAA*  (Hearing My Music As If Anew Again) and it's only got ≈ 60hrs so far.
So *SDSG* is in full effect, even though it's time for the dogs to get their midnight snacks.

Even their use of their doggy super powers, their "Power Stare", isn't sufficient to break thru my *SDSG*.
hahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## gefski

You're a real disciplinarian!


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## johnjen

I gotta crack that whip because if I don't, Bear (the Chesapeake), will choose to ignore me even more than he already does.
Not to mention Punkin, (the older lab who knows how to play the game) will completely ignore us, UNLESS there is food involved.

Maintaining my Alpha status is a never ending challenge with smart dogs.
They both know they can do, what they want, how they want, whenever they want.
And since they are food motivated we still have an edge, which I have learned to use, and in ways, that I never imagined would be needed.

Bwwwhahahahhhahahaha.

JJ


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## Lakson

Interesting comments. For me the question is: Do we like to be decived? Is the beautiful lie better than than the plain reality? The answer lies within  
ABX test in terms of small differences brings confusion and fatige, if nothing else. It's quite far from enjoyment we can have in this hobby.


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## johnjen

Good points, all.

And then there is the perspective that precedes, "Do we like to be deceived?"
That being, are we aware we are being deceived and that we are doing the deceiving to ourselves?

This, in part, is where we 'blindly' rely upon 'experts' to tell us what is, and is not true.
All the while, the answers DO reside within.
But it does take effort and perseverance to seek them out, in contrast to 'blindly' accepting the edicts of 'experts'.

Of course some topics require experience with, and a sufficient understanding of, the details and factors involved, which is where the perseverance applies.

And of course this isn't to imply that the 'experts' are wrong per se, but it is to say it should remain our 'goal' to verify claims with our own direct experience.
In this way we learn what does and doesn't 'ring true', because we do have direct personal experience to support our opinions and perspectives.

Just my additional 2.5¢

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 20, 2018)

So, a status report on my system.

The JggyB is blossoming, like crazy, and only has ≈125hrs thus far.

It has eclipsed my Jggy on tracks I'm very familiar with, and in surprising ways at that.
Like the soundstage has 'expanded' in all 4 dimensions (x-y-z-time), with greater definition, focus and REALNESS, and not in simple terms like bigger or deeper etc.
But in terms of being able to hear the entire soundstage, as it adds its reverberant harmonics to each of the '*voices*' as they excite the room.

The bass is much better, but hasn't quite equaled the PWD, quite yet.
But is significantly *'better'* than my original Jggy in definition, extension, and tonality, and being able to focus upon any bass line and follow it with ease.

There is a degree of refinement to the top end I have NEVER heard before.
Cymbals, massed violins, vocal plosives such as 'P's T's & S's have added delineation and focus and tonality that is compelling, where before they were just 'there'.
Think, hearing the rivets on the outside edge a cymbal, as distinct sources of added sound to the cymbal.

Talk about moisture on the breath, as it's about to drip on the floor…

I could go on, but I think I'll just kick back and be amazed at the degree and types of improvements, with more to come as it continues to 'settle in'.

This upgrade is WAY kewl.

JJ
ps as an 'acid' test I played those tracks that can all to easily act like dull razor blades inside my ears.
It was music instead and was engaging at that.


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## gefski

Reading around, to your impressions and others, it appears that the upgraded Yggys "ripen" faster than new Yggy-Bs. My new unit certainly wasn't a rewarding listen (compared to my sold Yggy-A) at 100ish hours; rather, it needed 400, then the switch flipped (like buying 10 avacodos, waiting a few days, then they all ripen in the same hour, Conni has to make a huge bowl of guacamole, and we have to eat it NOW). 

In both cases, the rewards are significant.


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## johnjen

I have been keeping a log of changes to my systems SQ, as I make changes to the setup and gear for over 5 years now.
And I have observed certain time frames that have repeatedly demonstrated periods of 'blossoming' and other periods of *TD* (toilet dump) episodes.
And granted these repetitive cycles don't always occur but they have frequently enough, that it doesn't surprise me when they do.

And having the system's SQ blossom in the 125-150hr accumulation window, is one of the more common patterns.
Another is blossom action at the 325-375 time window, which can be followed by a *TD* at ≈400-460hr accumulation window (which thankfully is much more rare).

Of late, due to the ongoing reduction of the number of choke points in my system, many of these patterns have either not manifested at all, or have done so but rather weakly.
Except for this latest JggyB change to the system.
In this case the blossom action was rather pronounced and a most welcome change at that.

And if the SQ continues to follow previous patterns, the JggyB should REALLY blossom, big time, after the 460hr window passes.

So I'll continue to monitor (as in listen to my music) as it accumulates hrs and more fully settles in.

JJ


----------



## Currawong

I'm curious to find out more about your HD800 mods. I gave up on them because it seemed the more I modded them, the more precise, but more boring they became to listen with. I never tried a hard-wire mod though.


----------



## Tand2016

I sent my Rednet 16 R to SOtM for modifications some time ago. When it was done I figured it would be interesting to modify my 2012 i7 Mac mini also.

The Rednet and Mac mini has been modified with 2 sCLK-EX clock boards, both placed internaly in the Rednet. It had space to both since I have modified it with a LPS-1.2 from UpTone Audio and could remove the original PSUs.

The first sCLK-EX card is conneced with 2 tabs to the Rednet and 1 tab to a modified D-Link switch I also have on order,  the 4 tab is still unused. The second sCLK-EX card is connected with all 4 clocks to my Mac mini.  eABS-200 has been used both in the Rednet and the mini.

The clock cables to my mini will be 40 cm, maybe I will try some shorter later on.

Looking forward to receive them in a couple of weeks and go back from usb to AOIP again  ....


----------



## johnjen

Tand2016 said:


> I sent my Rednet 16 R to SOtM for modifications some time ago. When it was done I figured it would be interesting to modify my 2012 i7 Mac mini also.
> 
> The Rednet and Mac mini has been modified with 2 sCLK-EX clock boards, both placed internaly in the Rednet. It had space to both since I have modified it with a LPS-1.2 from UpTone Audio and could remove the original PSUs.
> 
> ...


Wow That is a HUGE undertaking.
Dealing with RF is (or can be) a hall of mirrors, or be wonderful.
What do you figure you'll notice in terms of SQ?

And it looks like you patched right into the output of the existing clocks (as a guess), but how did you disconnect the original clock?

And that is a really good job of equalizing the word clock inputs.
Nice implementation, nice job all the way around!

I'd really like to hear more especially as the parts come in and the full system is dialed in.
I figure if yer gunna push the envelope, do it up.

JJ


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## Tand2016 (Jun 22, 2018)

It must have been some work for SOtM. I think the Rednet sCKL-EX was a first for SOtM, not sure about the mini but probably. Yes, it looks very nice. I like the details on the back of the Rednet.

Regarding the SQ. When getting the big lift in sq using AOIP after leaving usb, which futher was improved with the LPS converting. I figured the Rednet could have some potential.

"And it looks like you patched right into the output of the existing clocks (as a guess), but how did you disconnect the original clock?" I am not sure how they do it, but I think May called it they "discipline" the original clock with the more accurate sCKL-EX clocks.


Actually I have no idea what to expect. But using the REF10 on my (unmodified) MC3 + USB (whick will be modified after things are dialed in) and Word Clock to the Rednet (and now my Vivaldi dac) I think this will be very interesting  .

I will report back later when I have some hours on them.


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## johnjen (Jun 23, 2018)

Currawong said:


> I'm curious to find out more about your HD800 mods. I gave up on them because it seemed the more I modded them, the more precise, but more boring they became to listen with. I never tried a hard-wire mod though.


Say there.
This mod I've worked up is used in an environment where DSP is available, and provides *EQ* and *SSBB* and *PRT* tweaks and paying attention to the absolute phase (the phase button on the front or remote etc.)

Having said all that, this mod by itself should significantly reduce the irritation of long term listening or *tLFF* (theListenerFatigueFactor) as I call it.
This is what I hear, a BIG reduction in 'improperly timed and placed acoustic energy" as it is generated by the transducer.
In short I improved the critically damped 'suspension' that the driver sits in.

I have the 2nd paper poised which will go into some of what you are looking for ("but more boring they became to listen with"). But I have yet to start with the measurements which are a ways off yet, but…
As I mentioned those DSP tricks are an integral part of the end result.
You might even say they are the enablers of 'the fun stuff', the *T3* and *HB&W* (ToeTappingTime) (HeadBobbing&Weaving).

And there is yet more, as learning does continue after further experimentation.

Perhaps I should make this a 3 part post.
hhhhmmmmm

JJ


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## johnjen

Do you have another shot of the wiring from the clocks to the mainboard?
And the clock input wiring from the rear panel inwards?

Just curious is all.

Thanks and I know what you mean about getting back to AOIP from usb, 
while there (using usb) it ain't all that bad, 
that is, until AOIP comes back on line.

And now getting fully clocked AOIP, just might set yet another boundry up a notch or 2 or 3+ higher


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## Tand2016 (Jun 22, 2018)

Do you mean on the Rednet or the mini? I can ask May to send some more. These 3 is all I have for now.

Last months I have used a Regen (LPS-1.2) and Curious usb Cables to my Vivaldi dac from an unmodified 2011 mini and I have almost *not* lisened to music at all since sending the Rednet and mini to SOtM. Must mean something


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## johnjen

The rednet was my 1st thought, but if you have the MacMini Mod shots, yes please.

Yeah it is amazing the degree of difference between a well implemented AOIP setup, in contrast to anything else I have ever heard.

And it seems the more we push the edges of this envelope the more we find that which improves it.

JJ


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## Tand2016 (Jun 22, 2018)

sCLK-EXs 4 tabs to my Mac mini. To System, usb, ethernet and thunderbolt.


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## johnjen

Ah, I see now.
You just snagged the outputs of the existing ports, then re-clocked the data and sent it on its way.
It was just using those same rf coax cables only longer versions, with a few more connectors in between.

So the new reference word clock data that was sent to the RND16, was it embedded within the digital audio data stream, or sent separately?

It will be interesting to get your impressions once all of this is up and running.

JJ


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## Tand2016

I will connect each of the sCLK-EX with a Habst 0,5 m BNC 75 ohm cable from my Mutec REF10. Each sCLK-EX and the Rednet 16 will be used with 3 x UpTone LPS-1.2. A third Habst 0,5 m will go to my Mutec MC3 + usb from the REF10 and the last one will be used from MC3 to my Vivaldi dac Word Clock input.

Not necessary to say I was very happy for the Habst group buy  on CA !

Yes, I will defintly share the impretions when things are up and running.


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## johnjen (Jun 25, 2018)

System Status Report…

As I write this I have ≈ 245+hrs of playing time on my JggyB which is already pushing that 100% ceiling up, and away, and in ways most desirable.

A new audio term was uttered for the 1st time,
yet another descriptive term.

Subterranean Bass  *(SB*) which refers to, 'you feel' the bass (bass, only-better) as it concusses, or thumps, or rattles your body and is coupled with its higher frequency harmonics.

Remember those B grade movies with 'earthquake' effects?
Remember most of it was in not really even subsonic, let alone *SB*
Yeah like that only with headphones.
It smacks you (Involuntary Blink Response) or rattles your head, and surprisingly your chest, and more.

This degree of coupling is also a contributor to the soundstage enhancements that are emerging.
One such emerging enhancement that is noteworthy is *I5* (Intelligibility) and vocal backup singers, have already pushed their degree of focus and *REALNESS* to new heights, new 100% markers.
I expect this trend of emerging enhancements to continue for a while yet.

But the soundstage itself has morphed.
Everything from pure acoustic (orchestral, solo guitar or piano, etc.)
to studio produced music to fully electronic and all the blends of all of them…

Its like the walls or acoustic limits of each track is defined in 4-D space all around me, based upon how each track was created.

Sometimes it pans out before me, or surrounds me, it can be 'expansive' or confined.
I can zero in on a particular '*Voice*' and 'drill down' into it's nuances and focus upon those abundant inner details.
And sometimes one of those '*Voices'* grabs my undivided attention and away I can go.

This *JggyB* is roughly 1/2 way to the 500hr mark where I usually stop counting, but I think I'm gunna keep counting.

What this portends, based upon my previous experience is, assuming these patterns continue, in 2-3 days I should or might or could hit another peak blossom event, and another at ≈ 100hrs (≈3-4 days) later.
And another at ≈750hrs total, (mid july) and there are additional patterns that extend even further.

One development that has changed and seems to be rather consistent now is, when the system falls off it's 'peak', it doesn't really fall but it eases back (or slows way down) morphing/improving.
Which means most of the previous peak was retained, which for the most part means, it's improving or waiting till it does, and until the changes are so subtle they go by unnoticed.

Oh yeah *SB* is literally kick-ass, and body, and head…

Which can really be a surprise when you get whacked upside yer head.

JJ
ps yeah I'd say the *JggyB* upgrade fulfills my expectations in the bass, and in unexpected ways at that.


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## gefski

And that SB must help the entire bass range, micro detail wise. The REALNESS of bass drums, strings, organs was an early grabber of my attention with Yggy-B.


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## johnjen

Yeah it does, but not as most would think it would.

By that I mean, when the extreme bottom end is coupled to the rest of the bass, there is this cohesiveness to the bass that extends upward into the mids and up.

IOW it isn't just thumps and whumps, but each *'Voice'* that includes this very low frequency range, when it's coupled to it's 'parent', then the wholeness of that *'Voice'* takes on a whole new degree of *REALNESS*.
Even instruments that you would never suspect have any low freq component to them, when coupled in this way, can surprise you with the impact of their 'presence'.
Piccolos, flutes, harps, trombones, pianos, tubas, guitars, not to mention any percussive instrument.
When their near dc frequency component is aligned and coupled to it's 'parent', the results are *T3, HB&W, SDSG REALNESS*, which all take a step up in SQ, along with other attributes as well.   

IOW bass isn't just about thumps and whumps, it also establishes the 'foundation' for each instrument, especially those with a 'sharp', or fast rising, leading edge.
This is where the system that has 'extended bass response' provides and results in a coordinated and aligned *C3* (Coherence, Cohesiveness, Coupling) aspect to the experience.

And when all (or actually any combination) of these desirable sonic traits I have made acronyms of, take a step up, the results are usually immediately obvious, much like AOIP vs usb, or dialing in a sub woofer into a speaker system, and countless other examples we have direct experience with.

The *JggyB* just continues to push my previous 100% marks, in all categories, to new heights.
And it appears it's going to continue to do so for the next few weeks.

This is Weigh Frick'n Kewl (*WFK*…?).   hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Jul 9, 2018)

So another SSR (System Status Report)   

I've been fussing with my gen-5 mods to my B-800's while the JggyB is climbing out of a TD (Toilet Dump).
I'm pretty sure the JggyB is back up, as I'm hearing more of what my latest fussing's are yielding.
I say this because I'm In a pre-blossom stage where these brand new nuances are peeking out from around the edges of the '*voices'* (aka moisture on their breath).
And this pattern of 'peeking out from around the corner' has been observed numerous times previously.

I'll know more in a while, but I think I leapfrogged over gen5 and have landed in gen6 territory, already.

I have ≈ 580hrs on the JggyB and I gotta say that was the mildest TD in terms of the SQ going boringly bad, thus far.

And *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) has improved since the TD (which is one of the more obvious changes to the SQ) and along with bass coupling provides a much more satisfying visceral experience.

And there is sure to be more to come in terms of SQ refinements as my B800's settle into their new comfy zone and the JggyB finishes finding it's own comfy zone as well.

JJ


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## johnjen

Yet another SSR!

The JggyB is at ≈650hrs and my 800B's are at ≈190hrs.

And tonight its fairly warm and we have 2 fans running in my 'listening room' so the noise level is 'elevated'.
And despite that, at 'normal listening levels' (or perhaps a bit less), I'm hearing deep into the background of Eric Clapton's Pilgrim album.

I'm hearing new subtle brush strokes from the drum set, 
I'm hearing new nuances in his voice and his background vocals, (moisture on his breath), *Better* *I5* (Intelligibility)
I'm hearing bass with increasing *LEDI* and the degree of tonality of bass guitar and drums etc is reaching new levels of SQ as well.

And listening to Bonnie Raitt's album Luck of the Draw, these same acoustic attributes are very much in evidence as well, as might be expected.

These morphing patterns of the system's SQ, which are proceeding 'slowly', tells me it will take a bit more time before the SQ peak is reached, but in the mean time these newly experienced subtle nuances will accumulate and compound upon each other.

Much to my delight.

JJ


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## johnjen

So there are developing plans afoot to build a headphone amp, a max tweaked, really simple 2 tube/ch using the 45 (or 2A3) tube and transformer output.

Only it isn't really simple.

It'll be 2 custom monoblocks, with class A, ≈1.6watt output, using several chokes in series for the power supply, ac heaters, a balanced input transformer/volume control, and massive Audio iiirrrrnnnn (heavy transformers) everywhere.

This is massive overkill and simplicity all rolled into one, big, heavy, chassis.
And best of all, it will be an ongoing project as additional tweaks are added once the analog and power supply circuits are 'dialed in'.

And now the search for tubes begins in earnest and I already have a matched set of two, RCA Radiotron #45 globe/balloon tubes inbound.


 
What have I done!!!!!?????

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> So there are developing plans afoot to build a headphone amp, a max tweaked, really simple 2 tube/ch using the 45 (or 2A3) tube and transformer output.
> 
> Only it isn't really simple.
> 
> ...



Terrific! It can work great for speakers, so why not? And custom cables for the cans are easy for you!


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## johnjen (Jul 24, 2018)

Yeah it should be a great speaker amp as long as it is HIGHLY efficient.
This amp can easily be configured  to run on 45's or 2A3's with an easy internal change to accommodate the change.
So with the 45 the power is ≈1.6watts while the 2A3 cranks out a whopping ≈2watts of raw ground pounding power.

And yeah cables are NOT a problem.
In fact I just ordered my 1st set of SE rca cables, for the 1st time in decades.
Of course let the modding begin… 

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> Yeah it should be a great speaker amp as long as it is HIGHLY efficient.
> This amp can easily be configured  to run on 45's or 2A3's with an easy internal change to accommodate the change.
> So with the 45 the power is ≈1.6watts while the 2A3
> 
> ...


Color me confused. Are we talking monoblocks (separate chassis in every way for left and right) or dual mono in one chassis, sharing nothing. I've had both true monoblocks and "alleged" dual mono for speakers through the years. Kinda like the tweaky idea of true monoblocks for cans with a volume control in each. Regardless, I'm enthused, and will be watching!


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## BIG POPPA

You can keep it balanced coming in with some balanced to singled ended/balanced input transformers for a matching set at Edcor is about 32 bucks. I know you love keeping balanced


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## johnjen

gefski said:


> Color me confused. Are we talking monoblocks (separate chassis in every way for left and right) or dual mono in one chassis, sharing nothing. I've had both true monoblocks and "alleged" dual mono for speakers through the years. Kinda like the tweaky idea of true monoblocks for cans with a volume control in each. Regardless, I'm enthused, and will be watching!


You're right this isn't true monoblocks as in 2 chassis's as they both will share a common chassis.

And each will have its own MOAR knobs and other controls (off/standby/on) etc.

But it is still in the dev. stage of inception.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Color me confused. Are we talking monoblocks (separate chassis in every way for left and right) or dual mono in one chassis, sharing nothing. I've had both true monoblocks and "alleged" dual mono for speakers through the years. Kinda like the tweaky idea of true monoblocks for cans with a volume control in each. Regardless, I'm enthused, and will be watching!


You're correct the end result will all be in one chassis not 2, so dual mono in one chassis.
The amount of real estate needed for the amp itself is minuscule, the power supply will take up much more room.
But there will be 2 PSU's and 2 separate amplifier circuits.

This layout will tend to significantly reduce the impact that the *PRT* (Phase Reversal Tweak) can make, since both channels will be completely independent and completely separated.

But the amp circuits will be tweaked for the 45 tubes and 1.6watts of class A should be more than enough for my 800's.

And speaking of my 800's…
My 'B' set are settling in quite nicely.
I keep hearing 'new' aspects to the music I am very familiar with.
Which is always a very good sign.

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 19, 2018)

BIG POPPA said:


> You can keep it balanced coming in with some balanced to singled ended/balanced input transformers for a matching set at Edcor is about 32 bucks. I know you love keeping balanced


That is one option I'm considering, and may start out with, but I'm leaning towards using a TVC (Transformer Volume Control) as it solves several design issues all at the same time.

And the cool factor is off the charts (as is the price).
And I received the vintage 45's already, them'r purddy tubz.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jul 29, 2018)

So the amp was built over 2 days with all of the wiring done on friday.
pic #1845 
before 45.pdf

Then saturday it made it's formal unveiling at the HeadFi meet
pic 1846
after 45.pdf


So for being a slap dash amp made of 'spare'/parts bin major components (all the big iiiiiirrrrrrnnnnn) and a few spare 'well used' tubes (6SN7's and a 5R4) along with a new set of EH matched 2A3's it sounds really pretty good all things considered.

We wanted to NOT experiment on the vintage (1938) 45's I have, which will be incorporated into the next generation amp we build, even though during the meet we did modify the circuit just a tad and tried the 45's but only to see if they were functional and that how the circuit responded to the 2 types of output tubes.
This info will be incorporated into the next iteration where we apply the 'correct' transformers (power, chokes, filament, input and output) and dial in ALL of the parameters such as voltage swing, current delivery, inductance, internal resistances, and a whole host of other design parameters.

The saga of the 45 project continues.

JJ


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## gefski

Ahhh, the sight and smell of solder smoke at the Seattle Public Library.


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## johnjen

But of course,,,,,, and for those discerning few, the piquant aromatic contributions that only a quality solder can make.

Audiophile approved no less, and no snakes were harmed in the manufacture of this snake oil free product.

How much better can you get?

JJ  hahahahahahahahahaahha


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## johnjen

So I wrote up my impressions on the upgrade from the Jggy to the JggyB.
Starting with this post.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...d-the-first-post.881737/page-10#post-14407283

It has finally 'settled in' enough to evaluate it, so I did.

JJ


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## johnjen

So I've been working on the layout of my BIG iiiirrrrnnnnnn amp and here is the latest version, that will undoubtedly change and change again.
And be different yet again after the build.

This is a pdf and is 'large' so you may want to zoom out to see the whole thing.

45 amp layout-6.pdf

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 15, 2018)

*The HD-800 a headphone ahead of its time.
And the ‘need’ for modifications, common assumptions, and my different approach and results.

Part 1
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-84#post-14269778*

*Part 2*

So let me start this off by looking at those measurements I posted previously, again.
This series of measurements were made with my Gen-4 ‘A’ set and my new/used very lightly modded ‘B’ set of HD800’s.
The 3rd set was another set of hardwired 800’s with an inner fidelity trapazoid & ring felt/foam cover mod installed, which can be thought of as a ‘base line’ of sorts.

















The first 3 graphs re-tell the tale of the sequence of my explorations, by starting off with the added dampening (plus being hardwired), then next back to stock with a better cable (and protective screens on the outside of the driver cover removed), and then a full gen-4 mod.
The last graph is the input wave form that the 800's are fed.
These examples are rough/early, response graphs, and I’m planning on a more thorough series of graphs which will make it easier to see the results this approach yields.
Note: a graph of a fully ’stock’ set of 800’s has even more overshoot than the 3rd graph shown here.

But first an analysis of the 3 graphs.

The top graph is my Gen-4 800's.
This set has already dealt with the trapezoid and protective screens on the outside of the driver, the inner dust covers have both been removed, they are hardwired with a SAA balanced cable and a rhodium 4pin XLR connector.

The middle graph was my early 'B' set of 800's that had minimal mods that include a cryo'd set of mondo gauge balanced cables that also has a rhodium 4 pin xlr connector, and the driver cover screens and dust covers had been removed.

The bottom graph is a near stock set of 800's with the inner fidelity mod, that have been hardwired as well.

One way to interpret these graphs is to follow the line (the trailing edge) that descends off to the right, and extend it up and to the left, until it reaches the leading edge of the original square wave signal.
In essence you are compressing the way the leading edge ‘looks’, because these graphs are using the highest degree of magnification available, which in turn makes them look ugly.
But this zoomed in view does show us the actual response of the driver when told to go from ‘at rest’ (0), to an arbitrary displacement and then stop and stay there, followed of course by returning back to the rest position to wait for the next cycle to repeat.
Notice, when you compare these 3 different responses, how that trailing edge line changes it's relative position (height above the x axis) with respect to each other, and to what a square wave should look like.

IOW the amount of overshoot during the Initial Leading Edge Response (*ILER*) has been reduced as shown and in contrast to the change to the final displacement’s offset (height) from rest.

Another thing to notice is the total amount of resonant activity the driver makes before it stabilizes and doesn’t ‘wiggle’ any more as time progresses.
IOW not only how fast does the diaphragm stop wiggling, but also what the accumulation of all the wiggling adds up to, as shown.
Think, all of the area under all of those wiggles, combined, as an indication of generated acoustical energy.
This is an indication of the change to the amount of created acoustic energy where none is supposed to be in the first place.

This is a key aspect in helping all of the *C3* elements (Cohesive, Coherent, Coupling) become even further refined, along with several other previously described improvements to the overall SQ.

And during this project, once I zeroed in on this key aspect of performance that I found to be important, I tried to ascertain why this tendency to design in this overshoot, this deviation away from ‘ideal’, or at least a close approximation, is so common and used to the degree that it is.
Because there must be some benefit, but thus far I have not heard from anyone just what this benefit truly is, nor have I heard any reason that makes any sense to me at all.
But then asking the factory would probably not be a very fruitful approach.
However I may have stumbled over the reason for this, but I’ll need more time to evaluate just what I have truly stumbled over.

And with what I was hearing (Gen-4) and even more so now with Gen-5&6 , pretty much my primary motivation to take this to these latest levels (Gen-5&6) is just curiosity, because I’ve got a bad case of SuperDuperSuperGlue (my 800’s are glued to my head and I don’t even want to take them off) and a bunch of my other ‘colorful’ descriptors apply as well (*HB&W*, *T3*, *REALNESS* etc.).

So my results at maximizing the 800’s involves tweaking the entire system that drives them,
AND taming that *ILER* waveform to more closely match the input step waveform.
This approach also deals with the dreaded *tLFF*, (the Listener Fatigue Factor) and tweaks the associated parameters with wonderful and surprising results.

DANGER!!!   DANGER!!!!
YOUNG WILL ROBINSON DANGER
So this modification project has a few caveats and among them is…
We are fussing with the basic design of the 800’s and as such there is NO BACKUP, NO SAFETY NET of ANY kind!
DO this at YOUR OWN RISK!!!!!!
This will VOID your Warranty!!!!!!!!!!
If you screw up there is NO BACKUP other than yourself!!!!!!!!!!!
While repair parts are available they can be expensive (a set of drivers costs ≈$240 +S&H) and are usually backordered to Germany, think weeks)!!!!!!!!!!!!

IOW this modification requires a degree of commitment and responsibility on the owners part to assume ALL RESPONSIBILITY for the implementation of these mods.
Caveat Emptor, indeed!

Since this is getting long already I’ll end this 2nd part and resume in Part 3

End Part 2

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 2, 2018)

So here is the latest iteration of my BIG iiiiiirrrrrrrnnnnnn amp.
I'm currently favoring this layout as it has the greatest separation of the analog section from the power supply.

It still has a ways to go yet.

45 amp layout-10.pdf

And a big thanks to TomSix for the dual choke idea to feed the 6J5's.
The more we thought about it the more sense it made and we realized it was a welcome addition in keeping with the design intent of this amp.

JJ


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## johnjen

Yet another progress report on the BIG iiiirrrrrrnnnnnn amp.
So yesterday we started drilling holes, laying out the pieces, most of which have arrived.

 

Drilling 8) 2.5" holes with a hole saw and hand drill is definitely a 2 man job and a major PIA.

And yes it has morphed yet again (re-located most everything), and expanded (back to 24"x12"), and has a few more parts (now with 8) 2.5"x5" PSU filter caps, instead of a measly 6. hahahahahahahahaha

Which is up from our original 3 for the proof of concept breadboard.
 


and the underside
 


I'll have more pics as the build continues.

JJ


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## johnjen

BIG iiiiirrrrrrnnnn Update 9/16/18

So over the last 5 days (and counting) the amp has been built and is running and even at this early stage of development is on par with my tweaked ROK amp.
By that I mean some sonic aspects are better for one or the other amp, as are the weaknesses, and some are shared by both such as the extreme bottom end reach that the ROK's has WAY down low, as it is in full evidence this early on.
And at this point in the dev cycle (tweaking the operating parameters) reaching this goal so early is a major confirmation of the designs capabilities.

And one of the potential long term goals, way down the road, is to not use ANY electrolytic caps anywhere, especially directly or indirectly (bias circuits) in the audio path.
This is a major undertaking because the bias circuits for the 45 and 6J5 tubes both have bypass caps in the hundreds of µfd's which would add 12 more of those huge non electrolytic caps for a total of 20 of them. This would add ≈9” of length to the existing length (24”) just for all of those 20 caps.
Of course other suitable lower voltage non-electrolytic caps could be used but they ALL tend to be 'large'.

An example, the 45 tubes are capacitor coupled to the parafeed output xfmrs, via 4.7µfd 800vdc Mundorf "supreme evo", (I call it the hockey puck, for a reason).

And fortunately there might be a way to use interstage xfrms with the parafeed output xfmrs, but that research project is for another day.

Now to get the rest of the circuit dialed in and run in balance, so the full magic can come thru.

Here are a few pics of the amp as it was being built.

And note, what you are seeing is the amp upside down so we can get access to all the circuitry.
In fact the only parts of the amp that will be visible on top will be the 8 filter caps, the 4 tubes and 3 small xfmrs and the 2 volume controls and 2 xlr inputs.

Today we added the plate chokes for the 6J5 tubes and dialed in the filament voltages and B+.

And running the 45 tubes upside down is not recommended so the amp is only on for testing and I’m using a pair of ‘nearly matched’ tubes for testing with the vintage 45 tubes still safely tucked in their bed, waiting for their debut.


The power supply mostly done
 

and the glamor shot

 

and operating
 

There is more to come…

JJ


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## johnjen

So here are the latest updates to the layout and power supply circuit.
45 amp layout-13.pdf
and 
45 PSU.pdf

JJ


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## johnjen

Only to be superseded by the next iteration.

45 amp layout-14.pdf
45 PSU-2.pdf

And I've torn out a bunch of the innerds to rewire it and deal with a few layout issues.
As well as work on a few more design related issues and plan for their implementation.

The saga continues.

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 26, 2018)

So here are 2 pics, the 1st of which is analog section when the amp was first run.





The 2nd, is part way thru the rebuild.


Nothing is soldered in place yet, the ground buss has yet to go in (the black wire running down the middle), and I'm moving most of the xfmrs around just a bit to get a bit more room in places for the filament cable runs and a few other 'refinements' to the layout.

And we are still figur'n on how to lower the line voltage to fix and stabilize the internal operating voltages and allow for dc heating of the tubes, if need be.

To that end our current count of 14 xfmrs, could rise to 19, which follows the tube DIY'rs dictum of 'you can solve any problem with moar iiiiirrrrrrnnnn'.
(note, ya gotta say iiiiirrrrrrnnnn with a texas drawl, as in shoot'n iiiiirrrrrrnnnn, as there seemed to be some confusion as to the proper pronunciation, and intended inner meaning. hahahahahahahahahaha).

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 30, 2018)

So today I made up the filament cables and figured out how I can use the scant space to wire up the filament outputs and run them to the tubes.
And the tricky part was to be able to accommodate both ac and dc voltages and currents setups, to feed the tubes, all from the same space.

Going with heaters that are fed dc requires transformers, filter caps, diode bridges, and chokes (if I can fit all of this in the ≈4.5"x4.5" back corner of the chassis.
Whereas ac heaters only needs the output of the filament xfmrs
The secret to my success is going vertical, since I do have 4" of height to use.
It looks like a telephone pole in miniature with the filter caps hanging down from the tag boards which are 'elevated' well above the diode bridges which are stuck on the top plate and using it as a heat sink (not that this is even gunna get hot. Each filament runs 6.3vx0.3a = 1.89watts for the 6J5 driver tube and 2.5vx1.5a = 3.75watts for the 45 tubes).

The space was tight and I had to move the mains and primary choke over an inch, as well as the secondary and plate chokes inwards to accommodate the re-routing of the filament wiring.
I'm hoping all of this helps balance out and reduce the hum issue, which is a common struggle with tube gear especially when using ac for the DHT (Directly Heated Triode) tubes.
To that end I have made matched, shielded, twisted pair, heater cables (the yellow cables resting on top).

And I still have to rebuild the diode bridge or replace it with an 'all in one' unit.

I'll add the pictures tomorrow and run down a few technical solutions we are working on.

JJ


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## johnjen

So my line voltage swings from ≈121Vac to 125+Vac which is a tad bit high.
I have contacted City Light to see what can be done, and we have figured that using a multitap isolation line voltage xfmr would sufficiently drop the voltage as well.
And we might just go for a custom line voltage xfmr with multiple taps to be able to adjust the voltage back down to a more suitable range (115 to 118Vac).

This may seem like an exercise in picking at nits, but in this case every 1 volt increase in line voltage, results in an increase of ≈3Vac in the B+ voltage (300Vdc).
Which further means the jump from 115Vac (the specified input voltage for the mains xfmr) to 125Vac means a 30Vdc increase in the B+ voltage (330Vdc).

This line voltage increase is sufficient to screw with the bias voltages and current flow in the tubes and chokes, and for the filament voltages as well.
And because this is an old skewl design there are no voltage regulators, on purpose and by design.

Once we achieve a 'natural' balance with the 'correct' voltages and current flows, which will optimize all of the operating parameters, all based upon the line level voltage, the entire amp will 'self regulate' in a manner of speaking and there will be no need for internal regulators of any kind.

This is the essence of the old skewl design approach, 
the system, while operating, allows for and accommodates it's own type of self regulation because that is it's 'natural' way of operating.
This is the masterful design niftyness of the old skewl approach, and as long as the line level voltage matches up with the mains xfmr's designed for input voltage, and the rest of the design is dialed in as well, the overall entire circuit is really very simple and basic.

We have come up with a couple of work arounds, as well as seeing if we can get city light to step in and hopefully lower the mains voltages as well.

It will be interesting to hear if my main system changes due to this line voltage reduction as well.

And tonight I built v.2 of the B+ diode bridge using 1200v rated Hex-FRED diodes (super duper audio gud stuff).

here is a pic or 2+ of the latest efforts.

 
This shows where the filament supply is located and those yellow cables are the shielded twisted pair feeds for the 4 tubes.
Believe it or not I can fit 4) xfmrs, (2 go on top), 2) diode bridges, 2) 10,000µfd filter caps, the ground buss, and all 6 cables, that originate in this corner of the amp, all together in that corner on the lower right hand side.



Here is an over all shot of the progress.

 

Here is a shot of v.1 and v.2 of the diode bridge.
Yes I did scavenge the heat sinks and used them in v.2

 

Again I'm using the vertical height available and those 'gold' colored holes in the center of the tag boards are the perfect connection point for the 14g wire I'm using in the entire power supply.

And there is yet way more fun ahead, as I install the cables, v.2 of the diode bridge, and modify the input stage of the amp as I add line level input xfmrs that can handle balanced and single ended input sources and convert/hand them over to single ended driver tube.

More later.

JJ


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## gefski

Let us know how this goes, especially how much it costs to correct City LIght's problem.


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## johnjen (Oct 3, 2018)

Say there gefski.
It shouldn’t cost much at all, really as their internal documentation states it shouldn’t exceed 124vac with an extreme limit of 126vac, which I am approaching.  And really it should (hopefully) be only changing a tap on the step down xfmr in the alley.

But we’ll see soon enough.

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> Say there gefski.
> It should cost much at all, really as their internal documentation states it shouldn’t exceed 124vac with an extreme limit of 126vac, which I am approaching.  And really it should (hopefully) be only changing a tap on the step down xfmr in the alley.
> 
> But we’ll see soon enough.
> ...



I guess that when the "heavy hitters" in Seattle (Boeing and JJ) say jump, City Light says "how high?".


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## johnjen (Oct 4, 2018)

City light and I have this ‘relationship’ that goes way back, even before they knew we had a ‘relationship’.

They even said I should come work for them, which I ‘tactfully’ declined.

And they really ****ed up when the installed their LED street light replacement program, much to comcast’s consternation.
They used SMPS’s to run their LED arrays and used no shielding, neither light barrier nor electrical, which really screwed with upload stability and speed, and light trespass.

In other words it was a slap-dash implementation, all to save money, which thus far I have not seen reflected in the my electrical bill, go figure...
Not to mention their ‘smart metering’ program, which is another time bomb just waiting to go off.

JJ


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## derekphone

johnjen said:


> *The HD-800 a headphone ahead of its time.
> And the ‘need’ for modifications, common assumptions, and my different approach and results.*
> 
> When the 800’s were first released it was a love/hate relationship with many users.
> ...



Thanks for replying. Wow you’ve really put your heart into this and I think it’s inspiring. I’m really excited to get into this. 

I will say that as a noob to headphones and new to DIY I’m pretty intimidated. Can I even pull any of this off? The Popular SDR Mod (the little donut resonator) definitely seems easy enough. But wiring and the other stuff that I don’t even know what those words mean ....maybe I’m in way over my head. 

You sent me to this post for a list of the mods. But I don’t see the list. How about instructions on how to do all of this. Tutorials? 

I’m beginning to think this is for experienced DIYers. For a first time DIYer like myself (with headphones anyway, I have made some sweet stereo cables before with great results) are there any resources for the mods you’ve made, and are there some mods that you suggest I don’t touch. Eg. I’ve never soldered before. 

What do you think of this guys mods...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/senn-hd800-ultimate-s-mod.879024/

Also, it would be great to know what each mod does to the sound, more than just very tech talk, but also what it does to the sound signature, for us average hobbyists that know the sound we want so we don’t end up making a bunch of mods that move us away from what we personally want out of sound. 

Thank you so much. And this work is awesome. Such a great community. I would love to do this all myself because I think it would be fun, and really fulfilling to know I did it.


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## johnjen

Say there derekphone.
I figured your questions and my answers might be better served if made more public as others may have similar questions as well.

I have been working on these mods for my 800's for several years now and overall my efforts have evolved and morphed into a multifaceted approach involving not just making modifications to the 800's themselves but also the signal that is fed to them.
This involves using DSP to compensate for the 'natural' FR of the 800's (especially from ≈100Hz down to ≈10Hz) as well as a few physical mods to the 800's themselves.

And as I wrote "So the full *VMC* mod (*V*ibration *M*anagement *C*ontrol) involves the 3 aforementioned tweaks (hardwired cable, external screen removal, trapazoid treatment), plus what I have come up with as my tweak (*VMC*), which together all make up this mod."

I have since re-named the mod the HD800-Jmod or some such.

So here are a few pics of the cable I used in comparison to the stock cable connectors.
Yes this is about as big a set of wires as I'd be able to 'easily' fit in the existing space.


and here is the cable installed and wired.


And here is a pic of what my treatment to the trapazoid looks like.


and another of the outside of the 800's with the external screen removed.


As you can see these mods are not for the newb modifier as they are extensive and fully warranty obliterating, as is my usual modus operandi.

The EQ mods I have added in DSP are outlined starting in this set of posts.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-15#post-12300653

This should give you enough reading/cogitating/head scratching time to ponder if this approach is one you want to pursue.

As for the other approaches to modding the 800's that have been taken, including the one you cited, I can't say I have tried them to know if they would meet my expectations, or not.  I have used elements of them (the outer screen removal and trapezoid treatment) along the way and have settled upon this set of mods as my final set of mods, and I don't see any need to pursue this any further as the results satisfy what I was seeking and so much more.

I hope this helps answer your questions, but do feel free to ask more if questions remain.

Thanks    JJ


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## johnjen

So the answer back from Igor the City Light Voltage Control Specialist (anyone else catch the humor potential here?) is no, there is nothing they can do, as there are no additional taps on the step down xfmr on the pole in the alley.
And they certainly aren't going to adjust the 2400Vac that feeds that pole mounted step down xfmr.
In fact he was saying 124Vac that's good right the more the voltage the better, right?
It's the Uhmerikan weigh, MOAR is ALWAYS better, kind of approach.

So on to step 2, aka Plan B, the option of adding even MOAR BIG iiiiirrrrrrnnnnn to the mix.

I have acquired a Hammond 169J line voltage isolation xfmr with multiple taps on the secondary to compensate for the 122-124Vac (most of the time) voltage I normally see.
https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/line/169

This puppy is huge and weighs 22lbs all by itself, and I swear it must be warping gravity because it feels like it weighs 80lbs.

So as soon as I complete the re-wire job on my my BIG eyerrrrrrrnnnnnn amp I'll use it to drop the primary input voltage down to the 118 to 116Vac range, and then feed that to the amp and see what effect that has on all of the internal voltages and currents.

The saga continues…

JJ


----------



## derekphone

johnjen said:


> Say there derekphone.
> I figured your questions and my answers might be better served if made more public as others may have similar questions as well.
> 
> I have been working on these mods for my 800's for several years now and overall my efforts have evolved and morphed into a multifaceted approach involving not just making modifications to the 800's themselves but also the signal that is fed to them.
> ...





johnjen said:


> Say there derekphone.
> I figured your questions and my answers might be better served if made more public as others may have similar questions as well.
> 
> I have been working on these mods for my 800's for several years now and overall my efforts have evolved and morphed into a multifaceted approach involving not just making modifications to the 800's themselves but also the signal that is fed to them.
> ...


Thanks for the pictures. It perhaps is a bit out of my league as a first time diy project. If they were cheap headphones that would be different. Another issue I’m seein* as I’m going knee deep in research on these mods is that everyone has different taste and goals. We can all agree on the 6kh peak yes. So not being really sure what each mod is doing to the sound makes things impossible to decide if it’s worth implementing. I confess, maybe the sound characteristics have been explained super tech terms, but it has its been out of my understanding.

This, combined with the difficulty level of the mods, have me slowly taking quiet steps backward so maybe nobody would notice me. I kid.

I thought that the HD800 modded would definitely be my route but I’m now considering the 650 moddd because from what I read I think the sound signature is more to my liking. The question is whether the mods would have it compete with a modded 800. There are few comparisons online and of them , only of certainmods. Certainly not your mod. So I’m left with a lot of unknowns, on top of my own personal tastes.

2 things:

Has anyone compared HD650 modded vs. HD800 modded


johnjen said:


> Say there derekphone.
> I figured your questions and my answers might be better served if made more public as others may have similar questions as well.
> 
> I have been working on these mods for my 800's for several years now and overall my efforts have evolved and morphed into a multifaceted approach involving not just making modifications to the 800's themselves but also the signal that is fed to them.
> ...




I had a long response and my browser messed up. Ugh. 

Basically.... thanks for your help and images. I’m left feeling like this is too much for a first timer to wisely take on. Secondly I still don’t know what each mod really does to the sound quality and signature. On top of that , what I want out of sound may be different than what you want. There are obvious improvements most can agree on, like the 6kh peak. So maybe I just go with the top few obvious tweaks and that are doable for a first timer. Which would you suggest? (I’ll add that I’m a tube, analoge, natural , magical vocals, kind of guy, with as much punch to drums etc without taking away from  the other stuff.)

That being said, as I’ve explored the HD650 mods I’m thinking perhaps this headphone might be worth a look for me. I’m going to test the 650 vs the 800S at the store to see which I like better. I did test both but I gave the 650 like 1min of time because the comfort of the 800S was better and that trumps everything for me. But I do remember thinking damn those were nice! And thinking they just didn’t have the detail. But it had that, “I want to listen to these” feeling. Maybe that’s the tonality and midrange beauty that people talk about. 

Has anyone tested modded 650 vs modded 800? And what mods?


----------



## derekphone

Also, there is a jmod 650. Is this by you JohnJen?


----------



## johnjen

No, I've never had a pair of any of the 6xx series.
And the ones I have tried were moderately uncomfortable for long duration listening.

But one of my next projects will be to mod the HD700's using the same techniques I used on the 800's.

I have worked on a set and can see some easy mods that would mimic the same type of modifications to the overshoot, applied to the 700's.
But don't hold your breath, my amp project is on the front burner and it be cook'n…   

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And speaking of my BIG eyerrrrnnnnn amp.

Tonight I finished the re-wire job and just need a couple of resistorators, then later when the teething problems are sorted, I'll add a pair of input isolation line level xfrms (you'll see the the circuit board where they mount when I add pictures later).

We have come up with a workable solution for the high line voltage. 
And so I'll dial in the bias currents and voltages in the middle of the swing from minimum to peak (122 to 125Vac) using my variac, with the 750VA line voltage isolation xfmr (with the multiple taps on the secondary), in mind.

IOW it's almost ready for round 2 (of V.2.5) testing, of this monster of an amp.

This will be interesting to see how it has responded to the changes to the layout and re-wire job.

JJ


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## johnjen (Oct 12, 2018)

So here are a few pics of the results of the rewire job, but with a pic or 2 of the original wiring as a comparison.

When it was 1st started up after the 1st rebuild.



And a close up of the analog section


Here is the power supply diode bridge and filament supply section



And a sideways look at the bias circuits and filament runs



And the re-wire job of the analog secton including the input buffer xfmrs (2 of them) circuit board


a more oblique view including the ground buss termination



I still need to do some double checking of the wiring before I power it all up again, just because.
It will be my 3rd pass thru the circuit with the first 2 passes using a magnifying glass, looking for cold solder joints, not enough solder on a joint etc.
Then I'll bring it up slowly on the variac and monitor the various voltages (filaments for all 4 tubes, B+ for each channel, bias voltages and currents for all 4 tubes.
And do this for 116 & 117 & 118 & 119 Vac, so I have a record of those particular voltages and can compare them to what the line voltage isolation xfmr with the ≈5% voltage drop delivers to get a good idea of where I want to set the mid point of the sweet spot.

The analog section is remarkably simple with only 2 single triodes per channel which makes this entire process MUCH simpler.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And I realized I've run out of 'suitable' power cables, well that and I wired up my step down line xfmr which needs a little better iec connector, so I'm buying the materials to make up 5 more ac power cables.

They will be made from 14awg solid copper, THHN UL listed wire used in pairs for the hot and neutral for an effective 11awg.
And thus far the total cost is ≈$130 which is for all the connectors and 300' of wire of which my 5 cables will use less than half.

And after building this amp I REALLY like solid wire.
Yeah its stiff and can be unwieldy BUT it makes for a very solid connection, and it sounds superior to stranded while it 'locks in' the gear they are connected to, which is one aspect to hardwiring I seek, which in turn is why I like using xlr connectors, they don't wiggle, they are locked in.

And I'll probably cryo these power cables which adds ≈ $150 for all of them, which equates to a total cost of about $55/cable.

Here is the xfmr all wired up and ready to get plugged in.

 

 

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I lit her up and watched as the pretty lights came up, wait a minute 2 of them are dead, shut it all down and build another led matrix that IS working properly.

Then fire it up and take a few measurements at 115Vac and 118Vac.
All in all not to bad but the filaments are running 'hot', even at these reduced line voltages.

So round 3 is underway to ameliorate the important voltages (B+ for the 45's and the 6J5 tubes, and the filament voltages as well).

I had to build a 'scaffold' of sorts for the new parts and added another tier to the 'telephone pole' in the filament section.

But the rally good news is the hum has been hugely reduced, enough so that it is quite listenable now, but the voltage variations are stifling that 'Magic in the Mids'.
But the very bottom end is still alive and well, which is still a very good sign.

Round 3 is going to lower those key voltages using strategically placed resistors.

Here is the 'telephone pole' with it's new 3rd tier.


When this 3rd tier and the adjustments to B+ for the 6J5's is 'populated' I'll post more pics.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Ok so I lied.
Here are a few more pics…
The 'telephone pole' from a different angle.
 

And the changes to the 45 bias circuitry and the scaffolding for the voltage reduction circuitry of the B+ for the 6J5 tubes.
I have to fit 2) 5w resistorators and be able to add 2) filter caps in the gap between the 2 chokes, right above the bias circuits located down close to the top plate.

 

And I'll be adding 6) 1w resistorators inside the 'telephone poles' bottom 2 tiers, which has the same vertical spacing as the top tier to the middle tier, just to add some perspective.

 

And when I rewire this section, I'll clean up a few remaining 'messes', which should also help reduce hum and noise still further.

And the thought plickens.

JJ


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## johnjen

This is the 'cleaned up' version of the 'telephone pole'.
 

And the newly added B+ voltage drop for the 6J5 tubes.

 

Next up will be to power this amp up, measure the voltages again, and then listen to the results.

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 9, 2018)

Well, a good deal of the tube magic has returned but further tweaks are in order.
The filament voltages still need a bit more balancing, and a few other details explored.

But now the amp is 'listenable' at least enough for me, and I gave it a 1hr session to listen for SQ and shifts and changes as it warmed up and settled in.
The hum is majorly reduced, but still a bit imbalanced (the left channel is stronger than the right).

But the Magic in the Mids is peeking out from around the corner and is beckoning me to pursue.
And who could deny such a sirens song…
hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha

I just made the 1st of a set of 5 new power cables.
The wire showed up and I made a 1m cable that I'll use for the new amp once it can run without any life support (ongoing monitoring and fussing).
It went much quicker and easier than the last time I made sets like this, mostly because I didn't weave the wire sets together, and just twisted them.

And they, while a bit stiff, are nowhere near as stiff as I thought they would be.
Which means it will be easy to set them in place, where they will stay.

And the line voltage reduction program (*LVRP*, just kidding ) has moved into Phase II as a smaller step down xfmr is inbound.
The original 750VA unit pops 10amp fuses like popcorn and 5 amp fuses splatter themselves ALL over the inside of the glass tube.
So I have a few circuit breakers inbound as well.
Besides 750VA is almost 4 times more than I really need in terms of the actual load it will see.
So a smaller capacity (250VA) version is inbound which is a much better fit in terms of 'sizing the xfmr' to the load.

More later

JJ


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## gefski

Ahhh...we have ignition! (MUSIC)


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## johnjen

So a status report.
The amp is about to undergo a through electrical examination with circles and arrows etc,
I'm configuring the wiring to the new line voltage drop xfmr, and have found a way to lower the line voltage even further down into the 115Vac range.
Which in turn means I'll need less voltage drop on the B+ and filament supply's to get them into their sweet spot.

More later.

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 3, 2018)

The parts have arrived for the next round of refinements and tweaks.
I'll probably get them installed this weekend and take measurements after everything is back up and running.

I've managed to narrow and lower the 'window' of the line voltage that feeds this amp.

From the previous window of 115 to 119Vac, down to 115 to 117Vac so the mid point of these ranges drops from 117 to 116Vac and the spread has dropped from 5Vac to 3Vac which further translates to a B+ shift down from 15Vdc, to 9Vdc.

At least that is what the math on the back of the napkin tells me.
The measurements will let me know how close those pencil scribbles actually are.

And granted these small amounts of voltage changes seem like they should be a non issue, except that this amp has NO voltage regulators, and except for fixed load resistorators there are no other means of voltage reduction nor stabilization.

Which in turn means that the more stable and steady the line voltage can be, the better the amp can be dialed into, and stay in the sweet spot.
Which, it turns out, certain portions of the circuit have a sweet spot target window of approximately ±5%.

So once we get the voltages matched, balanced and optimized between the left and right channels, then we can map out what the next steps in the development of this amp will be.
And it should be all the more listenable, enjoyable, and inviting.

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 17, 2018)

So part 1 is done.
The voltage drop resistorators for the 45 tubes filaments have been changed from 0.03Ω (x2) (both channels) to 0.045 (x2) (left ch.) and 0.05 (x2) (right ch.)
This should drop the filament voltages down to close to the target voltage of 2.5Vac for both channels.

And the obvious question is why is this necessary in the 1st place and why are such small value resistorators needed at all.

The 45 tubes are (*DHT*) Directly Heated Triodes, which means the filaments are the cathodes as well, which in turn means if the voltages aren't matched the 2 channels won't operate the same.
Which can really screw up the 'Magic in the Mid's' that tubes are known for.

And these tubes run on 2.5Vac for the filament voltage, and a 5% window of optimal operation means the voltages must stay within 0.125Vac (an 1/8th of a volt) on either side of 2.5Vac or between 2.375 and 2.625Vac and ideally right at 2.5Vac.
But as important and perhaps even more so, they must be matched, regardless of where in that 5% window the voltages actually are.
And generally, the low side of the voltage window (the -0.125Vac from 2.5Vac) is 'worse' than being on the high side of 2.5Vac.

So these mighty tiny tweaks which can seem to be insignificant when the whole amp runs on 300Vdc, yet they are just as significant as dialing in the 300Vdc B+ voltage and making sure both channels are fed the same B+ voltage.

These are the old skewl means and methods that were and still are used to bring a tube amp, especially those amps using *DHT* tubes into optimal operation.

And note, these tweaks are not really going to be used by amps that are massed produced.
These sorts of efforts to dial in an amp like this are far to labor intensive and situationally dependent, meaning each amp would need to be tweaked for the line voltage they will run at.

So most 'modern' amps use voltage regulators which eliminates the need for any of this fussing with tiny value resistorators and the like, because the voltage is held at the specified values regardless of the line voltage.

But this approach isn't old skewl.

And these newer design approaches can have SQ effects that are unavoidably 'different' than the old skewl approach.


And we may be upping the xfmr count from our current 17 to 21 and replacing a few existing xfmrs with alternatives.
All depending upon how well the amp settles down and then into it's sweet spot.

And I may need to start using an erector set and 'fly' some of these additional xfmrs, as top plate real estate is getting scarce.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha

JJ


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## gefski (Nov 4, 2018)

Since you mention real estate, JJ, don't know if you're familiar with the late (died 2017) Don Garber's (Fi) functional and beautiful solutions. I've never been lucky enough to see or listen to one.

EDIT-for some user error reason, the images doubled up.


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## johnjen

Say there gefski…
Early on, during the initial conceptual stages, I had considered a configuration using the 3rd dimension or some variation of that for my BIG eyerrrrnnnn amp.
It quickly became evident that it would complicate the design and so we went 3d lite and use both sides of the top plate, which isn't new nor unusual at all.

And those pictures you posted are examples of creativity and 3d thinking in new and novel ways that inspires me to think about that approach anew.
His use of tiers instead of risers or standoffs, could be a nifty way of isolating and 'cleaning up' a layout with aesthetic enhancements and could reduce the internal wiring and have other benefits as well.

More food for thought for sure.

Thanks     JJ


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## johnjen

So it occurred to me that my 2, long term projects, the Power Pulse paper and my HD800 research paper had been sitting there patiently waiting for me to pick them up and resume editing and then posting them.

So here is Part 1 of the power cable research paper.

And here is the 1st post of this series, just in case you want to catch up…
*Part A Why Would I Want To Do This In The First Place?*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-85#post-14294952

*Why DO power cables and such make ANY difference to our headphone gear?*

Yet another experiment focusing on power delivery and some not generally understood factors to consider.

_*Part A Why Would I Want To Do This In The First Place?*_
_*Part 1 Theory and Expectations Based Upon My Initial Research*_
_*Part 2 Measured Results and Observations.*_
_*Part 3 Analysis and Conclusions.*_

_*Part 1 Theory and Expectations Based Upon My Initial Research*_

So during my research on power delivery, including the nature of fuses and the ASCC tests, I noticed a correlation between a few details that are shared between them.

Later I focused in on those factors and then went digging even deeper and this paper is the result.
At that point it was a research project, just me trying to see in more detail, the nature of these relationships and how that related to our audio gear.

One of the consequences of this research was when I posted the results of my *ASSC* (Available Short Circuit Current) tests, where I mentioned that there were ways of rating fuses dealing with how much current could be delivered in a very short amount of time.
The time chosen is 8ms for these I2T tests, and this duration is significant for one very good reason.

That being, it represents 1/2 of the 60 cycle frequency we use for our power delivery, in terms of time.
The 60Hz frequency our (US) power is based upon, takes 16.66 ms to complete one cycle, so half a cycle takes 8.33ms.
One half a cycle represents the 60Hz wave form completing only a positive, or a negative voltage sweep, from zero volts to the maximum voltage (120/2 = 60 volts rms) then back to zero volts.
So there is an ≈8ms positive voltage window followed by another ≈8ms voltage window (negative).

This is also why the *ASSC* test uses 8ms because it establishes how much current will trip the breaker (or fuse) in just one voltage sweep from start to finish.
IOW one task of the fuse is to be able to stop the flow of current into the ‘protected’ downstream device in just one voltage sweep, in ≈ 8ms.

Now, in that ≈ 8ms window, the voltage reaches max volts at ≈ 4ms, since the sine wave is a symmetric periodic waveform.
But we actually don’t, and can’t get, current delivery for all of that 8ms window.
Why?
Well, no current will flow when the voltage is zero or is ‘too low’, for one thing, but that really isn’t the major reason.

Once the power supply is turned on and stabilizes, it has a ‘reserve’ voltage which is at a lower potential (voltage) than what the peak ac voltage that feeds the diodes, that switch on and off, that allows current to flow to the rest of the downstream power supply.  
This in turn means current will only flow from the ac power source when its voltage is greater than what the ‘reserve’ voltage is, at any given time.
But as the ‘reserve’ voltage fills up after the diodes switch on, and current is delivered to ‘top off’ the ’reserve’ voltage, the diodes then turn off the flow of current as the voltage in the reserve reaches its peak voltage AND as the 60Hz wave form starts to fall off after reaching its peak voltage, after that ≈ 4ms mark.

Put another way, current will only flow into the downstream power supply when the ac voltage swing is near it’s peak (60Vrms) voltage.

And since the voltage that the ‘reserve’ has, at the start and end of this less than ≈ 8ms current delivery window, varies, this changes the start and end voltage that triggers the diodes to switch on (pass current) and off (to stop passing current).
IOW as the reserve fills up, its’s voltage rises and the diodes shut off at a higher voltage than when they switched on.
This makes the current delivery asymmetric with regards to the 60Hz (symmetric) sine wave that is feeding the power supply.

This too, is an expected result for the need of current (power) but with a limited amount of time to deliver that power.
Which in turn means the power comes into the downstream storage / filtering / regulation portion of the power supply in pulses, a series of ongoing pulses followed by corresponding ‘off’ times, followed by another ‘on’ pulse of current, and so on.

So as a consequence of this research, I figured that I would see current flow in ≈ 1/2 of that ≈ 8ms window, and peak current flow in ≈ 1/2 of that.
And as it turns out I wasn’t that far off.

Instead of the guesstimate of ≈ 4ms for the total turn on time, it measures out at ≈ 3+ms.
And that peak current flow window is ≈ 1+ms and not ≈ 2ms as I guesstimated.

And since I was motivated to pursue this line of investigation, I obtained a Tek 468 O’Scope (w/the digital capture option) and an Aim iprober 520 contact current probe, and more importantly, a plan to see where all of this would lead me.

End Part 1

Next up Part 2   *Measured Results and Observations.*

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 15, 2018)

So tonight I took a mess of measurements and I still need to digest the results.
But the L/R differences of filament voltages have tightened up nicely, but there is just a 0.01-2volt difference, which I can address.

Yeah that seems like crazy talk trying to equalize such small voltages, but every time I close up this gap, the Magical Midrange improves.
Those DHT triodes as I mentioned before, are truly tweako, which delights my tweako nature no end.  

And pretty soon I'll be WAY deep into the resolution of my DVM's (I'm already on the edge in trying to reliably measure 0.02Ω resistorators).
And the noise floor continues to lower, which is also another good sign, and oddly enough my hum is 60Hz and not 120Hz as is the usual case.

And I think I may have figured out a major stumbling block based upon the measurements and the amps behavior under a variety of 'test' conditions tonight.
And as I am often reminded, "there is no problem that MOAR xfmrs can't solve" which will probably prove to be true yet again.

And I have nearly completed the wiring for the chain of mains line voltage step down xfmrs that then feeds this BIG eyerrrrnnnn amp.
I'm just awaiting several 2" wide rubber bands and a bit more of a stable amp that can be turned on 'normally', by just flipping the switch.
It's close now but after the filaments are dialed in and one or 2 other significant details are matched up, THEN the amp can 'come on line' so to speak.

JJ


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## mvneufeld

Luckbad said:


> I went ahead and built the @atomicbob Noise Nuke today because the parts arrived shortly before I got off work.
> 
> It's too soon to declare it the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade to any DC powered headphone amplifier, but I really do think I'm hearing subjective improvement.
> 
> ...



Hello Luckbad, I wonder what your impressions are a year later on the Noise Nuke. Is the improvement worth the effort? I'm thinking of building one to use with my Project Horizon III. Thanks!


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## johnjen

Just to add my 2¢ on the noise nuke.

I've heard, as in directly, the effect it can make and it is one of the most effective yet rather inexpensive DIY projects available.
I heard atomic bob's setup with it in place and then out of the circuit.

If your going to run your amp with a SMPS, and are handy enough to make one, it will be well worth it.
And it can be way cheaper than implementing a LPS solution.

My own research tells me the fewer SMPS's the better, and the noise nuke is really quite effective at sucking up the noise they create.

Just my experience as a comparative.

JJ


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## mvneufeld

johnjen said:


> Just to add my 2¢ on the noise nuke.
> 
> I've heard, as in directly, the effect it can make and it is one of the most effective yet rather inexpensive DIY projects available.
> I heard atomic bob's setup with it in place and then out of the circuit.
> ...


John, thanks very much for the 2¢! My listening setup is Mac w/Audirvana → Schiit Eitr → Schiit Modi Multibit → Horizon III. I'm actually pretty happy with it now, but I wonder how much better it could be, given what you and others have said about the Noise Nuke. 

I've lined up all the parts but I haven't ordered them yet. I've done a bit of soldering, but I'm a novice at electronics, and I wish I could get some good photos showing how how it's wired. There's not much out there other than the three pics Luckbad posted in this thread.


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## johnjen

I thought I remembered of seeing a few pics of it's interior, which is really just a simple LC circuit to absorb the noise before it moves on.

Does anyone remember those pics?

And I'll check in with atomic bob and see if he has access to them as well.

JJ


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## mvneufeld

Thanks! I found a schematic, which is helpful, but pics would help if atomic bob or anyone else has any. It looks simple, but I’m, um, even simpler.


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## johnjen

The info we seek concerning the Noise Nuke should become available in the next day or so.

So my next (3rd and final) write up about the HD800 mods I've figured out, will be posted 'soon'.
Yeah, I used the 's' word, the one that says so little, yet means even less, er sumpt'n.   

And the next 2 parts of my power cable research project are poised to be posted 's' as well.

The next few mods to the amp are inbound (MOAR Xfmrs) which hopefully should (re)solve a number of design issues, all at the same time.
Which just further reinforces my use of BIG, as a name for my BIG eyerrrrnnnn amp.

JJ


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## mvneufeld

Great! I've bought or ordered all the parts. The main things that aren't quite revealed in the photos I've seen and would like to have a little better idea of:

Which wires are soldered to which input and output tabs
How the caps are grounded to the enclosure  
JJ I really appreciate the help. I know how simple this thing is compared to what you (and others) are doing. It's like asking a Formula 1 mechanic to help me with my moped.

This is such an informative thread. Looking forward to the next installments of your continuing power cable research saga, too.


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## johnjen (Nov 18, 2018)

So atomicbob sent me the schematic and an interior pic.

Thanks Bob for helping us out with this project.






Hopefully this should give you enough info to build one of these.

And for anyone else who is handy with tools etc and is running a SMPS to power an amp or dac etc, this circuit should help significantly reduce the noise and so allow more of the music's inner details to be heard.

JJ
ps I just found Luckbad's interior pic as well.


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## mvneufeld (Nov 20, 2018)

I saw those - was hoping for a better shot of how the wires connect to the input jack, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. Thanks again - I'm looking forward to trying it out!


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## johnjen

If those are the same barrel connectors I have used, then that 'unused' tab on them, (in your illustration), is a direct path to the box (ground) once the outside nut is tightened down.

IOW just add a jumper between the (-) negative leads from the 2 caps and tie them to that unused ground terminal.

Also it would be better to connect the caps to the output barrel connector rather than the input.
As in, you want the caps to 'see' the output load side, rather than the input supply side, of the choke.
Or just swap the 2 labels "Input" and "Output" with each other.
(See Bob's schematic in my post for clarification).

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 3, 2019)

*The HD-800 a headphone ahead of its time*.
*And the ‘need’ for modifications, common assumptions, and my different approach and results.*

*Part 1 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-84#post-14269778*

*Part 2
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-87#post-14447507*

*Part 3*

So first off let me repeat…

DANGER!!!   DANGER!!!!
YOUNG WILL ROBINSON
DANGER!!!!!!!!!!!

So this modification project has a few caveats and among them is…
We are fussing with the basic design of the 800’s and as such there is NO BACKUP, NO SAFETY NET of ANY kind!
DO this at YOUR OWN RISK!!!!!!
This will VOID your Warranty!!!!!!!!!!
If you screw up there is NO BACKUP other than yourself!!!!!!!!!!!
While repair parts are available they can be expensive (a set of drivers costs ≈$240 +S&H) and are usually backordered to Germany, think weeks)!!!!!!!!!!!!

IOW this modification requires a degree of commitment and responsibility on the owners part to assume ALL RESPONSIBILITY for the implementation of these mods.
Caveat Emptor!

I just want to make this clear that this is not a beginners modification, is NOT easy for those who are not good with tools, their hands, and know how to handle delicate pieces and parts that make up a headphone.

This is a true DIY project with minimal instructions/guidelines, because typing out all of the details involved just isn’t going to happen.  It would turn into an encyclopedia, and I’d rather spend my time tweaking and not writing out those myriad of details.
So be forewarned this is a complicated and involved series of modifications that an experienced DIY’r will know how to implement, but not a beginner to this sort of thing.

Well unless you’re one of those “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead” kinda guys, a ‘learn by doing’ risk taker.
In which case good luck and here’s to a successful outcome, I can identify with that mindset.

So specifically what is my contribution to this 800-Jmod? (yeah I changed the name).
And remember the 1st 3 steps?
1- hardwired cable,
2- external screen removal,
3- trapazoid treatment.

What I’m doing is simply adding 20 durometer 0.75mm (1/32”) rubber sheet material in the shape of the ‘Clamp Ring’ which is ‘stuck’ to the metal side of the ring (think gasket).

I have used double sided sticky tape and also ’Sticky dots’ (a 3m product) that is applied from a dispenser and rolls onto the flat surface leaving small dots of glue behind.
I punch holes in the ‘gasket’ for the screws to pass thru to their ‘seats’.

And so the ‘Clamp Ring’ is put back in place, upside down from it’s ’stock’ position.
With the original open cell dampening material facing ‘out’ (towards our ears).

And during the re-assembly, the inside edge of the Clamp Ring should not have any of the ‘gasket’ material binding on the outside lip of the driver assembly, as the ‘Clamp Ring’ gets tightened down.

Be sure to BACK the screws out to find their originally cut threaded slots, before screwing them in.
Trust me on this.
You are going to want to tighten these screws down so that the inside edge of the metal Clamp Ring is at or below the lip of the driver assembly opening.

Do this in steps like torquing down a head on an engine rebuild, only use more steps.
This means you must be careful and not ham hand these #6 torx screws.
Not to mention it would be bad form to poke a hole in the diaphragm with your very pointy torx bits.
So use caution and don’t let the driver slip when tightening those tiny screws down.
Seat them evenly and carefully because they will be tight and it is possible that they can strip out (or break) their ‘seats’.

But if you screw up, repair parts are available from Sennheiser, but know it will take weeks perhaps even longer to get them (see the cautionary notes above).

Also, I cut back the stock open cell foam (which should now face ‘out; towards our ears) at a ≈45º angle all along the inside edge of the Clamp Ring, so as little of it intrudes into the cone area where the sound exits the driver.

Also, after several days of use I go back and check those screws to make sure they are all at set at the same torque.
And that the ‘Clamp ring’ is at a uniform height with respect to the opening of the driver itself.
You’ll probably find that the screws have settled in just a bit and a few will tighten just a touch to match the rest.
And this is important, you want all 4 screws at the same torque/equal pressure into the driver mounting structure.
And note they don’t have to be at max torque, but the ‘Clamp Ring’ should be at an even height compared to the driver opening.

So really, what have I accomplished here?
Well for one thing the ’step response’ of the driver more closely matches the input waveform.
This in and of itself should be evident as an indication of increased accuracy in re-creating our music’s waveforms, especially those oh so important Leading Edge Dynamics.

This mod reduces unwanted created acoustical energy and helps reduce how much energy spreads out in time, and so ‘contaminates’ the rest of the generated waveform.
IOW, more of the acoustic energy is created when it should be and (more importantly in this case) NOT where it shouldn’t be.
Put another way the acoustic energy created is more precisely time aligned.

This could be conceptually thought of as a form of jitter reduction in that we are increasing the precision in time and amplitude of when and how much acoustic energy is generated and then presented to our ears.

Now, 800’s are already pretty good at doing this, but this mod takes their ability one step further.

Another way of thinking about this mod is, it’s applying ‘critical dampening’ to the driver and it’s mounting structure to better control the resonant vibration of the driver assembly.
And perhaps more pointedly, is how and what the diaphragm itself is ‘anchored’ to, which establishes it’s vibrational foundation.

Is this perfect?
Of course not, but we are dealing with transducers here and we all know that they are the least precise of all of the components in our audio systems.
And as I have mentioned previously this approach could be taken to whole nuther levels, and I have no idea where that would lead to, nor how much improvement could be attained.
But I have no doubt that my results could be significantly improved upon.
But it would involve $$$$$$+ and resources not usually available to hobbyists.

So as the driver is more closely ‘dialed in’ such that it’s acoustical output more closely matches it’s input waveform, I can’t see that as anything but ‘*Better*’.

And I have taken my measurements which have revealed yet further refinements, and have analyzed them at least using a back of the napkin approach and have put some numbers behind this mod.

I looked at the innerfidelity measurements of a stock set of 800’s and measured the overshoot vs the trailing edge amplitude, and did so for the Gen-6 J-mod and compared them.

The stock set of 800’s measured the overshoot at ≈ 37.5% of the total amplitude of the initial leading edge to the trailing edge.
The 800-Jmod resulted in ≈ 12% of overshoot, of the trailing edge amplitude.
By just subtracting these 2 measurements we see a reduction of 25% .
It also can be expressed as a percentage down to just 32% of the original amount of overshoot.

This is a relatively big change/lowering of what I have come to see as a Major source of listener fatigue.
This change also reduces distortion, especially the smearing of acoustic energy thru time and the addition of upper harmonics to fast rising transients (a slew rate related distortion, of sorts), that also contribute to listener fatigue.

So why would I or anyone want to do this?
To take these steps in the 1st place?

Overshoot seems like an ‘enhancement’ that is easily included in the design, one that can add that initial WOW factor (but which I call the Bose effect), one that helps ‘make the sale’ one that is ‘good for business’.
This ‘enhancement’ has auditory consequences beyond a simple WOW factor.
Stated plainly it contributes to listener fatigue and it need not be this way.

And that ugly 6.5KHz FR peak response, which has been pointed out as the source of the ‘problem’, is much less of a ‘problem’ in comparison to this listener fatigue issue.
And this added contribution to the sound signature, fortunately, can be at least in part, ameliorated.
And make no mistake the 800 isn’t the only HP that uses this ’Sales Enhancement Technique’ (SET) of overshoot.

And to be fair this SET actually helps those of us who actually like the 800.
Because they have become popular, their cost of ownership due to the used market, has lowered and so has made it easier to make mods like this more doable for those of us who tweak such things.

Ultimately though making a great HP less so (which can be reversed, at least somewhat in this case) seems like a marketing mistake, which has gone on for too long now, and of course could now be turned around into a marketing bonanza.

The sonic degradation of too much overshoot is easily heard and one key sonic attribute that suffers is Listener Fatigue, and yes there are others as well.
All in all it seems to me that if the manufacturers start to address this issue, our long sought for major acoustic improvement with all of the TotL HP’s, could be realized.

As a parting conclusion, I’d like to see the headphone manufacturers use WAY less overshoot, as in perhaps just a touch to help with the marketing side of things, the SET approach, but not enough to contribute to *tLFF*, which is where we are now.

And I figure that would lead to a substantial improvement in the SQ of ALL headphones, simply because they would be more accurate in reproducing the original signal fed them.

Granted they may not be as initially spectacular, but SotA HP’s DON’T need all that sizzle, we want the steak.

JJ

End


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## mvneufeld (Nov 20, 2018)

Thank you! Per your instructions, I -

reversed the Input and Output labels (oops)
Added the jumper between the (-) negative leads from the 2 caps to that unused ground terminal
Bob's schematic doesn't show a jumper between the top (negative) terminals of the barrel connectors, but I put one because both photos show one.

Am I getting warmer?


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## johnjen

Say there.

The caps are still shown as being wired to the input connector instead of the output.

Good catch about the negative connection from input to output
And actually the schematic does show both negative terminals wired together (it's the very bottom connection shown in the diagram along with the ground connection).

JJ


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## mvneufeld (Nov 20, 2018)

Argh - I really reversed them, but somewhere in my revisions they reverted. Fixed it, and I think the diagram is correct now. You're right about the schematic showing the negative terminals wired together. I think I was confused because the various connecting points were in different locations on the schematic and in the photos - someone with more (any?) experience would have figured it out right away. 

One thing - am I missing something, or are the caps not grounded in the in the photos above?


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## johnjen

The negative connections of the caps are probably wired to ground on atomicbob's build, but perhaps not on luckbad's.

Grounding the case is not mandatory, in this application, but IS advised.
You are filtering a 48Vdc supply with limited current so the absolute necessity for grounding is somewhat mitigated.
It's more of a safety issue rather than of SQ, that is unless you are in a 'noisy' environment in which case it could be both.

Or if you regularly touch gear and feel an electrical tingle, then grounding is going to help in this case.

IOW, you could try grounding the box, or leave it ungrounded just to see if it makes any audible (or other) difference.

JJ


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## johnjen

So I fired up the BIG eyeyrrrrnnnn amp and have been listening to it, on and off, during the day and now at night.

I added 2) line level 1:1 input xfrms to the circuit, which in turn means I now can 'properly' use the balanced output from my ROK amp or the JggyB dac direct.
There is less hum, it is now nearly equal in both channels, it has dropped to where I only hear it during the quietest passages or when nothing is playing.

There is still some tweaking to do to the bias circuits, and the filaments circuits, and finish up the AC line voltage step down xfmr setup.

But the amp is 'listenable' now, is engaging, has 'enough' of the Magic in the Mids, without the distractions of annoying hum and noise and a lack of MitM.
Which brings the eyerrrnnnn count up to 17 with future plans now to replace 4 plate chokes with 2 alternatives and also add 2 grid chokes.

And as soon as my 2" wide rubber bands show up I'll start using the AC mains step down xfmr setup for even more ac power stability.

JJ


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## johnjen

A BIG eyerrrrnnn amp update.

I nailed the 45 filament circuit voltages to within 0.001Vdc between the left and right channels regardless of what the ac line voltage is.
This has resulted in yet more balance between the 2 channels such that the SQ has risen (although it is subtle) to new *'Better'* heights.

Next up is seeing if I can dial in the plate chokes that feed the 2) 6J5 driver tubes by arranging how each pair is wired together.

And we have begun the process of designing the 'final' build's layout which includes the size of the case etc.
And of course no matter how we arrange the layout at this point, we KNOW it will change as we progress AND again as we actually install all the eyerrrrnnnn (and remember to use that texas drawl for the full effect) 

We are using the z axis (height) to an even greater degree while trying to shrink the footprint.
We aim to optimize the 'flow' of the power supply and perhaps even more significantly the analog circuits, such that we avoid problems and optimize the results (lowered hum and noise, which yields increased SQ).
Which means we should be able to even further match the channels together to a greater degree for even more of that Magic in the Mids.

And right now Bonnie Raitt is sounding really good with an extra dollop of REALNESS as only triodes can provide.
The amp is starting to blossom, just a bit as the MitM peeks from around the corner.
I can hear Bonnies voice with moisture on her breath and it is starting to smell of what she last had a drink of…  hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Nov 30, 2018)

BIG eyerrrrnnn amp update.


So after several more tweaks (adding .22µfd bypass caps to the output caps, creating a faux center tap for the 6.3vac filament supply, adding the ac power voltage drop xfmr stack, adding more 100µfd caps to the PSU, and removing yet more resistorators from the audio path) we are now figur'n on adding interstage xfmrs instead of using plate and grid chokes for the 6J5 tubes, and changing the solid state rectifiers to tube rectifiers instead.

But the amp's SQ is blossoming with *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) which is not just peeking out from around the corner anymore, but is staring me directly in the face, AND singing into my ears.
And I'm smiling as I notice as more and more of these SQ changes, that are highly sought after from tubes, start to manifest themselves.
And I'm still using my circuit development tubes, not my tweako set (the 45's from 1938 and the made in 1944 6J5's).

And that range of line voltages from the dedicated branch circuit for my audio system that runs from 120 to 125Vac, has been reduced to 120 to 123Vac, then down to 115 to 117Vac, due to the final step down xfrmr.
This has stabilized all the working voltages in the amp and brought them into their optimal operating ranges.

Thus far I have ≈ 39hrs and I'm adding ≈ 5-7hrs/day of run time, and the amp is responding well to our careful tweaking and experimenting with various sections (PSU, bias circuits, etc).

And it appears that I will have to build a pre-amp as well.

My ROK amp has a 'feature' where it won't shut off the speakers AND send the audio signal out the pre-amp outputs, at the same time.
This means I can't listen to just my 800-Jmod HP's from the BIG amp and not have the speakers on at the same time.
Fortunately the speakers run at a MUCH lower volume than the 800's, still, this is cause enough for a 'proper' dedicated pre-amp.
And with all of the 'extra' parts I'm accumulating from this BIG amp build, I should have plenty left over to build a decent, simple, and 'proper' pre-amp.

But first things first, as we continue to dial in this BIG eyerrrrrnnnnn amp.
And I AM enjoying the SQ as it continues to blossom and tantalize me with more and more of that *MitM*.

JJ
ps Next up will be Part 2 of my power cable series.


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## johnjen (Dec 2, 2018)

Recently things have been changing much more quickly, and for the '*better'*, as we have hit several 'licks' in a row.
And with a few more in the works, that should help solve a few nagging problems, that still need to be 'put to bed' so to speak.
And one of those tweaks will make this amp 'battery powered', sorta kinda.
I figure this is in keeping with the 'OLD skewl' theme for this amp.

The most niggling of them all, is the all to common for tube circuits, the hum and noise levels are still higher than we want.
Right now those levels are hovering in the -40 to -45dB level and we have improved them such that the hum (the most audible contribution) is 'softer' and less objectionable.
Still when the source of this type of sonic veil is lifted, the SQ should take a considerable step up.
And we have a plan, or well, we're working on a plan now that we have a clear goal and direction to pursue.

But one of the most recent tweaks was adding more isolation for the source of B+ that feeds the tubes, from each other.
IOW I added a 'separate' cap that feeds the 6J5's so that both tubes are getting more 'customized' voltage sources.

This was sort of the icing on the cake so to speak.

Last night and again tonight I simply CAN'T take my 800's off my head.
No matter what music I play.
Nor how 'loud' (how much I crank on the MOAR knob) I play this system at.

A case of *SDSG,* and with the blossom action happening right into my ears, my ability to want/need to leave my 'listening area' has diminished, until the very last possible second.
Like going to bed.
(last possible second as in fall asleep in my chair)   hahahahahahahahahahaha

And this is still on my 'development' set of tubes, the 'expendable ones'.
My pre-WWII 'vintage' tubes are just waiting until the circuit is truly ready for them.

I figure that too will be a big step up, just because these matched sets are _*really*_ closely matched.
And were made during the height of the tube era.

But for right now typing this and listening to Paul Simon or Joe Satriani or Pink Floyd, or The Pachelbel Cannon, etc, or any of the rest of the 10 hrs of music running in a continuous loop, has got me by my ear hairs and won't let go.

Yeah that *MitM* is parked in this amp and has started setting up permanent residence.
And I like the results thus far, and it will only improve from here onward.

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 10, 2018)

So we just installed a different bias system for the 6J5 tubes and it has improved the SQ yet again, albeit in a small way.
I used a 9v battery instead of using UV LED's, so now my BIG amp is battery powered.
And we have plans to do the same for the 45 tubes as well.

Next up is an interstage xfmr to help stabilize the 6J5's and directly feed the 45 tube, without any coupling cap.
This should increase the SQ of the amp with easily noticeable changes.

And in related news…

We are now working on a pre-amp to use to feed this amp instead of using the ROK as a pre-amp, which has an idiosyncrasy of not being able to turn off the speakers AND send the analog audio signal to an external amp (my BIG amp).

And currently the design for this pre-amp will also be able to drive my 800's (or just about any set of HP's for that matter) as a 'portable' HP amp.

It will use the same tubes as my BIG amp (2 x 6J5's, and 2 x 45's) and in most ways it will be a Mini-Me of the BIG amp, only scaled way down with a simpler PSU and using variable impedance output xfmr's to drive either the BIG amp or HP's.

This means I can take my pre-amp to meets as a 'portable' HP amp and also use it as a volume control for the BIG amp, at home.

And my BIG amp is settling in nicely as it accumulates hrs (101) and continues to surprise me with subtle and not so subtle acoustic and harmonic nuances.
At times the bass seems to have additional texture and harmonic over and under tones that are most welcome, which adds 'richness' to the extreme bottom end, where you normally don't expect such details because hearing (feeling) that portion of the frequency spectrum is uncommon.
IOW this amp even at this stage of it's development is the equal of the ROK amp in this regard.

And elsewhere, (those magic mids) this BIG amp is already capable of greater resolution and inner details and an added degree of the *3C's* (Cohesion, Coherence, Coupling) and we really haven't 'uncorked' it yet.

There are yet more tweaks waiting beyond the interstage xfmrs and the battery bias for the 45 tubes, namely changing the SS diode bridge for a rectifier tube (GZ34 is top of the list) and dialing in the output coupling caps, along with full electrical isolation of all the xfmrs, and the possibility of majorly changing the output xfmr configuration.

But this HP/pre-amp combo deal has us both scratching our chins going, "ya know if this works it'll be pretty frack'n kewl".
To be able to do double duty, and do so with very few parts, (simplicity in the design, which keeps the costs down) and use the same set of tubes, and be an ideal pre-amp to drive the BIG amp, well, it will be an interesting build and basis to compare these 2 designs (Big amp & HP/pre-amp) to each other, since they both can use the same tubes.

JJ


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## gefski

Portable preamp as "fits in a shoebox" or "fits in the trunk"??????


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## johnjen

hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaaha
Am I that easy to read?  hahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahaha

Yes it’s the "fit in the trunk" option.
So far it looks like 17"(L) x 10"(w) x 5"(h),
for a pre-amp.
Albeit a pre-amp with dual mode uses (HP-amp and pre-amp), but wait there's more…

The feature set is still expanding and morphing as new possibilities and uses for this HP/pre-amp are incorporated into the design.
Like being able to use a bevy of DHT tubes by adjusting the voltages (B+, filament) to suit the needs of each of at least 5 DHT triodes.

And it will handle HP's from 32Ω to 600Ω AND provide a 600Ω balanced line output to match the 600Ω input xfmrs the BIG amp is using.

And a really kewl feature will be the switch that electronically adds the 6j5 (or other) driver tubes, to add more gain to the 45 (or other) output tubes, in order to achieve the necessary output power in order to drive HP's.

It will also serve as a test bed to listen to a variety of tubes to then determine what tubes I want to settle on, to use when we build the 'final' dedicated tweako preamp only, that will drive the BIG amp.
And this HP/pre-amp will remain as a meet rig with whatever set of tubes that sound best in it.

At least that is the plan thus far.
Stay tuned as this design gets further refined etc.

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 14, 2018)

Plans for the HP/pre-amp have taken a 'just do it', step up in terms of where this build can go.
And when these changes settle down, the impact these design elements can make should be remarkable.
At least if what has just popped up on our radar, turns out to be what I think.
This may be frick'n cool to the max.

But actually this post is to mark the 'discovery' or realization that this BIG amp REALLY likes to get cranked on, as in rock and roll levels, leading to getting swept up in the music.
Yeah *SDSG* is still at peak levels and where *tLFF* has dropped to new levels of low.
Translated that means the sound is so insistent and compelling that I simply can't take my 800's off my head, and after cranking the MOAR knob for MOAR volume,
it just doesn't get loud,
but it does get MOAR.

The bass continues to surprise me with the depth, texture, coupling and extension that this amp is tossing at my ears.
The mids have a degree of solidity and depth that is startlingly captivating, not to mention intonation and the harmonic structure of each '*voice*' is, if not more '*real*', is far more captivating and engaging and compelling, as in, the thought of stopping the music simply does not occur, at all, no matter what time it happens to be.
And this is an interesting tid-bit, it doesn't seem to matter what music I play, it all has 'stick', it all keeps my 800's stuck on my ears.

And tonight I'm experimenting with the 3 different sets of 6J5's I have on hand.
All 3 sets were NOS (New Old Stock) which means they have never been used, except on a tester after being manufactured back in the the 40's and 50's.
That's quite a remarkable statement it seems to me.

Anyway I like the GT versions (Glass Tube) more than my development set of metal cans that I've been running thus far.
Which means I already have the driver tubes for the above mentioned HP/pre-amp.

MOAR now and More later.

JJ


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## johnjen

Lately I've been fussing with the amount of capacitance that is used to take the music signal from the 45 output tube and then pass it along to the output xfmr.
It has to block ≈ 295Vdc yet still let the ac audio signal thru to the parafeed output xfmr.
This is a 'tuned' circuit and dialing in the 'proper' amount of capacitance here is part of the process of tweaking the circuit for maximum bandwidth and coupling, especially coupling from well below 20Hz all the way up thru the audio band.

Right now it seems that ≈ 5.35µf is close to optimal, but it might go a bit higher, say 5.6µf or so.
This is the fun stuff as new refinements are dialed in and new acoustic and sonic nuances are heard.

JJ


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## johnjen

So right now I'm preparing to post Part 2 of my power cable article.

And tomorrow I will probably start the tear down and rebuild of the analog section to install the interstage xfmrs and isolate all of the xfmrs from the top plate and then tie them all together into a 'star' ground.
I have all the parts on hand and have figured a means and method to yank out the stuff no longer needed and hopefully be able to install the new xfmrs in the same or perhaps better locations.

Fortunately these new interstage xfmrs are smaller than the rest of the Lundahl xfmrs I have used thus far.
Which should help in shoehorning them into place.

JJ

And next up is…
*Why DO power cables and such make ANY difference to our headphone gear?*
_Part 2 *Measured Results and Observations.*_


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## johnjen

*Why DO power cables and such make ANY difference to our headphone gear?*

Yet another experiment focusing on power delivery and some not generally understood factors to consider.

*Part A Why Would I Want To Do This In The First Place?*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-85#post-14294952

_*Part 1 Theory and Expectations Based Upon My Initial Research*_
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-89#post-14593223

*Part 2 Measured Results and Observations.*
*Part 3 Analysis and Conclusions.*

*Part 2 Measured Results and Observations *

*But first a Re-Cap.*
Bits are bits, wire is wire and as long as the music plays there should be enough voltage and current, so what’s the problem, right?
And especially with our HP gear that uses so little power to begin with, as such, ac power cables should make no difference right?
I mean a 9w/ch amp driving high Ω HP’s there should be no effect when trying different power cables.
Except that that isn’t what I heard…

This was a challenge to try and figure out.

And now,
*Part 2 Measured Results and Observations *
I’ll include a few oscilloscope pictures of the voltage and current wave forms super imposed upon each other to show when the current starts and stops flowing in relation to the voltage swing.
What I’ve measured and now present is an approximation of the time and amounts of voltage and current that is shown by the scope.

In addition I’ll provide some insights into the dynamics of this relatively static picture.
I call it a static picture because these measurements were taken while the amp is idling and no signal (music nor fixed test tones) are being amplified, and these wave forms don’t change.

Now these pics of the measurements were taken using my Tek 468 O’scope and an Aim iprober 520 contact current probe by my ipad.
I volunteered my Schiit Mojo amp (1st gen) as test bed for these experiments.
It is rated at a maximum of 45watts of power consumption and delivers 8watts into 32Ω, (or 32watts into 8Ω which it isn’t rated to do, but is a relative gauge).
And operates with 2 watts in class A operation as it’s normal bias for each channel, at idle.

These measurements were taken with no input (& the volume control is all the way down) nor is there any load on the output.
The location where the measurements were made was at the ‘output’ side of the fuse holder, after the switch and before any of the rest of the power supply.

The Aim iprober is a direct contact current probe, meaning it reads the magnetic field at the circuit board trace, and then uses the O’scope to display the wave form shape.
As such it does not add any additional load nor does it limit or affect the current pulses.

*pic of setup with arm and probe

 
*
Notice the voltage probe ‘seeing’ the voltage that the current probe is measuring at the same location and at the same time.

And since it is a contact probe and isn’t a direct measurement of the current flow, placement becomes a variable in taking measurements.  This is why I am using approximate numbers and amounts.  
Plus exact numbers aren’t really necessary at this point in these investigations.  
I’m looking for ‘Big Picture’ views and not focusing in, nor drilling down onto, the specific details themselves.

It turns out that while operating at idle, in those ≈ 8+ms windows of time, current passes in ≈ 3+ms slices of time, followed by ≈ 5+ms of being off, followed again by a ≈ 3+ms ‘ON’ window of time.
This means that the current actually flows for only ≈ 37% of the available time, into the downstream power supply.

*pic power pulse V&I*
 

And in that ≈ 3+ms of time, the amount of current that I measured is ≈ 0.4amps(PtP) in a peak time window of ≈ 1+ms.
This means that in one full cycle of 60Hz the peak current delivered is ≈ 0.8 amps(PtP) during two ≈ 1+ms peak windows, and all current flows in 2x ≈ 3+ms windows for each full cycle.

*pic power pulses I PtP
 

*
Now, a peak 45watt load needs ≈ 0.375amps on a 120v supply voltage, in a 100% duty cycle environment with a symmetric periodic wave form.
Huh? (I can hear you respond…)

100% duty cycle means the current flows continually (like a battery) with no stops nor starts.  So a 50% duty cycle means the current flows for 50% of the time and doesn’t for the other 50%.  And in this case has a ‘rep rate’ of 60/sec or 60Hz.
And the symmetric periodic wave form (sine wave) means there is symmetry to the flow of voltage and current.

But the Mojo amp, at idle, is operating in a ≈ 37% duty cycle which means that if our peak 0.8amps(PtP) were scaled up to 100% duty cycle. the current would be equivalent to ≈ 2.1 amps or a 267% difference, to the added time that current flows.

As was mentioned this is an expected result for the need for current (power) but with a limited amount of time to deliver that power.
Which in turn means the power comes into the downstream storage / filtering / regulation portion of the power supply in a series of ≈ 3+ms pulses followed by ≈ 5+ms of ‘off’ time.

So in effect in this light duty situation while driving a ≈18watt amplifier, the amp is ‘asking for’ peak current flow of 0.8amps(PtP) yet a 18watt load should only need 0.17 amps if it were a 100% duty cycle.
This represents a 470% increase in the amount of current from a ≈37% duty cycle vs a 100% duty cycle, and assuming the current flows in a symmetric waveform (which it doesn’t because it’s asymmetric, see below).

IOW these pulses are best thought of as short, sharp ‘demands’ for instantaneous current flow.  Followed by longer duration ‘off’ times.
And not, steady, even amounts, of uniform, symmetric periodic current flow, as many might think.

end Part 2

Next up _*Part 3 Analysis and Conclusions.*_


JJ


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## johnjen

Ok so I lied.
I still haven't started the surgery/transplanting of new xfmrs and bias circuits yet.
For a couple of reasons, one being another headphone guy might get a chance to hear this amp tomorrow and if it's all torn apart, that won't happen.
And the 2nd reason is this pipe organ at Methuen has convinced me to continue to listen and not shut the amp down.
It is a compelling reason, not to mention that any other music I play seems to have the same effect.

So surgery was called on account of 'any' excuse to just listen and not start throwing hot solder around.

It's torment I tell's ya.   

JJ


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## johnjen

The surgery went well and no smoke has escaped, nor were there any sparks, loud pops, snaps, or fires.  

I'm still fussing with the additional power supply caps and isolating the xfmrs from the top plate to see how that affects the hum and noise issues.
And the new interstage xfmrs need more playing time as the SQ is morphing as they 'settle in'.

Next up is to modify the bias circuit for the 45 tubes to use batteries instead of a resistor and bypass cap.
Somewhat like the bias circuit for the 6J5's where we now use a 9volt battery instead of either resistors/caps or LED's.
This means the only caps remaining in the audio path will be the output caps between the 45 tubes and the output xfmrs.
And that all of the resistors in the audio path have been replaced with xfmrs, with the exception of the trim resistors in the filament power supply(s).

And once all of these changes settle down, I'll get back to determining the value of the output caps, among other experiments.

The SQ has risen yet again and it is still rather early, as this new circuit configuration gets dialed in, so there is a degree of anticipation what these new changes will lead to.

Yep I still having some fun now, I tells ya!


JJ


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## johnjen

So I was going to try and draw up the full schemo for this amp, but I realized it would take a WHOLE bunch of time and wind being kind of funky and cobby.
BUT…
I did have 2 hand drawn portions of the amp, the power supply and the latest analog version.

So I cut and pasted them into one document.
 
Talk about a REALLY simple analog circuit.
And yes there are a few portions of the circuit that are 'missing', like the filament circuits, the ac power inputs, and the details dealing with the output xfmrs.

The battery bias for the 45 tube is the latest addition to the amp, and was facilitated by the interstage xfmr that went in recently as well.
And the battery bias for the 6J5 tube was facilitated by the input xfmr.
And after a few screw ups in installing these new modifications and learning what NOT to do, it is working well enough to give it some playing time to monitor the voltages and listen to hear the SQ changes.

Some may wonder where are all the resistors and caps that are normally found in analog circuits…
Well, it's like the designer has oft repeated, "there are no problems that more xfmrs can't solve", like eliminating the resistors and caps with only the output cap remaining.

And the SQ continues to improve, with startling results upon occasion.

JJ


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## johnjen

And just like that, the power supply has been modified even further…

 

And so it goes.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 7, 2019)

And yep, the power supply has morphed yet again.

I'll draw it up and post it here in due course.

So here is the updated power supply 'as built' (v.light).
The values of various resistors and caps are changing all the time so no values are listed.

This amp is still in development and as you can see, any part of the design can change at any time.
Which actually is a whole bunch of the fun part of this project.
To fuss with the basic design and learn how simple it can be made and how the SQ of the amp responds to these changes.

45 PSU-3.pdf

And the HP/pre-amp is about to take off as well, now that a few 'technical issues' have been sorted out.  And it is shaping up to be something special and in a variety of ways.


JJ

ps a slight modification to the wiring of the Power Supply was made


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## johnjen

And again, more variations on the theme…
45 PSU-4.pdf

And I'm working on the final edits of part 3 of the power cable paper dealing with analysis and conclusions.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 17, 2019)

And yeah now I'm at version 5 of the psu, which I'll post below.

But first, I can't help myself but show this picture of the wood base being constructed for the 45 amp.

The grain structure is a marvel as it wraps around the corner.




 And this 45 BIG amp, along with the hp/pre-amp are moving ahead nicely.

here is the v.5 psu.
45 PSU-5.pdf
It is a small but significant and welcome change to the SQ.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 17, 2019)

But wait there's more!!!!!

Here is a pic of the bases for both amps.
These bases are 'raw' as in unfinished and haven't even been sanded yet, let alone varnished etc.




But wait there's more.

Here is a 'proper' schematic for the analog circuits for the 45 BIG amp.
45 amp analog circuit 1:2019.pdf

You'll note that the specific details for such things as the values for the caps, voltages, xfrms P/N's etc, are not listed as they are still subject to change.

And so it goes.

JJ


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## johnjen (Feb 5, 2019)

So I finally had enough time to finish editing this final tome about power cables and such.

To wit…

*Why DO power cables and such make ANY difference to our headphone gear?*
Yet another experiment focusing on power delivery and some not generally understood factors to consider.

_*Part A Why Would I Want To Do This In The First Place?*_
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-85#post-14294952

*Part 1 Theory and Expectations Based Upon My Initial Research*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-89#post-14593223

_*Part 2 Measured Results and Observations.*_
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-91#post-14672408

_*Part 3 Analysis and Conclusions.*_

So these measurements have led me to see a picture that points clearly at how sensitive our gear can be while taking in power to use and deliver our music to us.
It shows us that the vast majority of the actual electrical power that our gear gets, is delivered in ≈ 1+ms pulses separated by ≈ 7+ms of ‘Off’ time.
This goes a long way in explaining, for me, why cables, fuses, metallurgy, connectors, wire geometry, etc can make audible differences.

In my experience dealing with peak and/or the extremes of the ranges of the voltages, currents, frequencies etc, that we deal with in our audio pursuits, is where I usually find there are gains to be realized in terms of SQ, especially when these demands for peak signals (voltage and current) are synchronized and occur in very short time windows.

In situations where there are demands for peak performance, we can make improvements to accommodate them, such as using bigger gauge wire for speakers that have big amps driving them, or again using bigger gauge wire in our ac power delivery as another example.

In addition where we find up stream limitations limiting the ability to dump large amounts of current in a short time windows of current delivery (1ms), and then stop, repeatedly, and with ≈ 7ms of off time (which is a 12.5% duty cycle), tells me that there are gains to be realized in all of this.

This type of pulsed activity puts ‘stress’ on the whole electrical distribution system (and especially the wires and receptacles in our particular branch circuit) that runs back to the panel, and the rest of the ac power load in the house and even further back up the line, where all of the existing load can ‘contribute’ their own electrical signatures.

The bottom line is the ac power system is essentially spiking current into our gear, all of our audio gear (with a few exceptions), right along with the rest of the electrical load the main breaker panel feeds power to.

And as my previous *ASCC* (Available Short Circuit Current) experiments showed, having greater current dumping ability feeding our gear DOES result in improved SQ.
And when you think of it, how could it not?

Because of these sorts of ‘needs’ for such short duration pulses of current, any and all upstream limitations can (and do) combine, and so, can limit the delivery of these peak current demands.
Including such aspects as the ‘power factor’ from the pole outside,
the existing demand on the rest of the in home power distribution system, including the main circuit breaker panel itself, and
ALL the functioning circuit breakers,
the length of the branch circuit being used, and
condition of the wire in the walls, and
health of all of the receptacles, and
the health of all the inter-connections on that branch circuit, etc. especially those that feed our systems directly.

And remember those receptacles you plug into are contractor grade (meaning as cheap as possible yet will still pass the safety inspection, when 1st installed!), that is unless they have already been replaced AND the entire branch circuit feeding the gear has been ‘tightened up’, in which case there is a very good reason to believe you have already heard the impact that the removal of these *CP’s* (Choke Points) can provide.

And those ‘contractor grade’ receptacles they used?
They used to cost 49¢.
I mention this because one definition of a *CP* is where current or voltage is un-wantedly hindered or altered as it passes thru a passive device or component.

So a ‘standard’ LPS (Linear Power Supply) wants the power delivered in very short pulses of relatively larger amounts of current by a factor of ≈ 470% greater than the rated power would suggest.  And even if you use the stock fuse as a means of knowing how much current the amp ‘needs’, the actual ≈ 3+ms current pulses are many times greater. 
This is also where those I2T fuse rating come into play, as was mentioned previously.

And when the *ASCC* test results are combined with these findings, a deeper look at what is happening emerges.  Namely when the *ASCC* results show ‘better’ results in terms of being able to dump greater amounts of current quickly, (I measured a peak current of between 1 to 2 KA’s on a 20A breaker) are combined with the results in this 2nd series of tests, it becomes very apparent that being able to ‘quickly dump current’ is significant.

The *ASCC* Tests start here and continue for several posts over several pages.
*https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-43#post-12738982*

What stands out to me is that these results point back to the assumptions we often make on how things operate, that also have missing elements or aspects buried or obscured within them.
Such as, the way in which current actually flows into our gear.
Which includes a key factor, namely time.
As in how much time is actually spent flowing current.
So for me this single factor plays a key role in what is missing from the ‘debate’ over power cables and such.

And these 2 key factors, the ability to dump current quickly, and the short slice of time (relatively speaking) available for peak current flow, and which has a (relatively speaking) long pause between ‘ON’ pulses, means any hindrance in this ability to deliver fast rise time short duration peak current loads will likely affect the power supplies ability to meet it’s needs, not to mention the added demand the music adds to the picture.
This dynamic portion of this situation is beyond the scope of this inquiry.

These 2 key factors both point at the same conclusion, even on very low powered gear, such as our headphone gear.
The conclusion is that being able to deliver current pulses, QUICKLY yields better results, and ALL upstream ac power components can influence this ability to, in a very short amount of time (≈ 1ms), be able to dump maximal current, then stop.
Conversely ANY component that in any way restricts these short peak current flows will affect the downstream power supply in some way.
Just how this affects the rest of the power supply is also outside of this inquiry.

But I can suggest at least one such possible interaction.
That being, voltage starvation (sag) due to the inability to supply all of the power needed by the downstream load, at any moment in time.

These cumulative findings further imply that the gauge of the wire must play a role in this since these pulses are several times larger than what a 18w load would suggest.
IOW these pulsed flows of current are brief and are less than the duration of the ‘off’ window slices of time, AND are many times larger than would be commonly assumed.

Further, if I do some head scratching and figur’n, it looks like,
of that ≈ 3ms ‘on time’ window,
≈ 1+ms is spent rising up to the peak,
≈ 1+ms is spent at or near the peak current flow, and
≈ 1-ms is spent falling back to zero.

Which upon even further scribbling could be thought of as ≈1.6ms± of near peak current flow.
And this time slice of ≈ 1.6ms± must provide for ALL of the power needs for the entire ≈ 8ms window, which comprises the previous ≈ 5ms of the ‘off cycle’ and the ≈ 3ms of the ‘on cycle’.

As such any degree of limitation to the delivery of current flow will affect the amount of power delivered, to some degree.
How much would be very difficult to answer especially if we take into account the complexity of a musical wave form added to the load.  Sine wave test tones are usually too regular to reflect the dynamics of music so we’d not likely see the peak demand for current, nor would I be able to measure it repeatedly, let alone accurately.

AND it also suggests that as the demand for more current rises (dynamic bass peak for instance) that the characteristics of that ≈ 3ms window will change, and that the rise and fall times will try to adjust as well, in order to have more time to transfer more current to meet the greater demand which also implies that the demand for peak current will rise, as well.
And it also suggests that during such times of greater demand for power, that the voltage to turn on the diodes lowers and allows current to flow sooner thus increasing the duration for additional current to flow during that ≈ 3ms window, and to a lessor degree the turn off voltage will adjust as well.
This is where the asymmetric wave form enters the picture for the current pulse.

(Note what follows is a thought experiment, so consider this one set of possible interactions with how the PS can influence the rest of the device’s functionality.)
*ASSUMING*
(Case #1) That the amount of current delivered is ‘sufficient’ to meet the demand of the downstream load or ‘reserve’, before the incoming AC voltage itself drops below the now replenished ‘reserve’ voltage.
(Case #2) That the current flow was insufficient to fully top off the ‘reservoir’, so in this case the PS is relatively ‘starved’, until the demand for current lowers enough so that the reserve can get fully ‘topped off’.

In case #1 as long as the downstream demand for power is met, any existing restrictions to quickly delivering current shouldn’t have any effect on the PSU and the rest of the device.
But in case #2 where there the PSU isn’t able to receive all of the power it ‘needs’, this ’shortage’ will be carried over to the next ≈ 1ms current dump window, where in turn these ’shortages’ can accumulate if the demand exceeds the ability to actually deliver the ‘needed’ current continues thru time.

Therefore, by removing *CP’s*, which enable greater amounts of current to be delivered, means the ‘threshold’ where the PSU shifts from case #1 to case #2 (or visa versa) is altered such that case #2 happens less frequently and presumably for shorter periods of time as well.

This is where ‘*better*’ ‘audio grade’ components can make a difference.
By enabling greater amounts of current to flow quickly, and as quickly ( if not more so), stop flowing.

So if a fuse, which is designed to be a ‘controlled’ restrictive safety device, actually impedes the flow of current then it will have an effect upon the ability to quickly dump current.
As can wire gauge, and even the ability of the plugs and receptacles to be able to deliver peak current pulses, not to mention the additive effect of all of them AND the wire in the wall, and the branch circuit breaker, and the rest of the load the panel is dealing with, all the way to the step down transformer outside the house.

All of the cumulative effects of the entire power distribution system can, and in multiple ways, restrict the ability to quickly deliver current.
And as I have continued my investigations and experiments, I have proved to myself, repeatedly, that removing these (*CP’s*) does result in ‘*Better*’ SQ.

So in total it isn’t JUST the power cables nor JUST the fuses, nor any one factor, but the interaction of all the components of the entire power distribution system that feeds our gear.
And while power cables and fuses are 2 of the easiest ways to make changes, there are others, such as ‘audio grade’ duplex receptacles, bigger gauge wiring, short (or as short as possible) dedicated runs from the breaker panel, tight connections everywhere, among other factors.
A case in point, I soldered the wires of the romex  extension I had added to my existing dedicated branch circuit, AFTER I had already installed and used it for several months, and I noticed an immediate change for the ‘*better*’.

In addition, the rest of the audio system’s existing *CP’s* also play a role in how much of a noticeable effect being able to deliver these peak power demands will have.
Such that if there is a MAJOR *CP* built into the system (say a dirty or worn out connector, or a damaged cable connection) this will also limit the system from delivering peak performance as well.  And in my investigations until any/all MAJOR *CP’s* ARE ameliorated, the system is operating with less than optimal results.

I call this busting thru a major log jam, where eradicating those MAJOR *CP’s,* of which a poorly performing ac power feed is definitely one that can be an obvious detriment to the overall SQ, can lead to significant increases in SQ.

These findings also help to explain why I prefer hard wiring, where possible, as it further reduces both the number of possible *CP’s* as well as the effects that all remaining *CP’s* can make.

I hope that these findings are helpful in yielding a better understanding of the actual dynamics of the power being fed to our gear.
And why many do notice improvements after upgrading, improving, reducing/eliminating *CP’s* from their power distribution that feeds their systems.


JJ

Fin.


----------



## johnjen (Feb 5, 2019)

So news update on the BIG irrrrrnnnn amp.
After much fussing we have managed to lower the hum and noise down to ≈ -50 to -54 dB for both channels.
It's not that I can't hear it when the passages are quiet, but it is but a minor annoyance at this point.

The SQ on the other hand has 'stepped up' shall we say.

The bass has coupled all the way to high mids and beyond and to a degree that I haven't heard for decades.
The MitM (Magic in the Mids) is outstanding for some tracks, which means there is still a need for more dialing in the circuit to 'help it get out of its own way'.
You could also see this as letting the amp breathe and respond in a harmonious way instead of being 'forced' (as in tight control of the regulated voltage at all times) into sameness, that really isn't always the same.

There is majic in the old designs.
And this amp LOVES to get cranked on.
And when this amp is all warmed up and the voltage stabilizes (late at night) and all the noise makers in my proximity are shut off and I crank on some '5 star' music…Ohhhh,  YEAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVERYTHING improves and thus far I can't detect any sonic nor acoustic 'anomalies', that doesn't mean they aren't there but they, at this point, they don't stick out enough to be heard.
This amp rocks, my body is danc'in in my chair with my head on a swivel, and deeply extended bass just rocks my whole body with a degree of concussiveness that is simply marvelous.  Daft Punk's album _Random Access Memories_ has now been added to my '5 star' go to albums for checking the low bass response.

And the HP/pre-amp is now in breadboard form and playing music and getting used to being an amp (ie. breaking in).

Some fun now, ya betcha.

JJ


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## richard51 (Feb 5, 2019)

Very interesting thread,a bit difficult for average guy like me...My dream was with little money to create an audiophile system at low cost and I had one now with my own trying and experiments...My single most important discovery is that NOISE plagued all audio system, then my goal was to eliminate that noise without  putting too many active electronic components to attain this goal by buying for example a costly power supply or even a cheap one  (because introducing any new electronics components to clean implicate a necessary trade-off)…

My system was already isolated from mechanical vibrations, and my room already treated by myself when i begin slowly with an experiment with stones and crystals that change my audio world completely...It seems that stones filtrates the EMI and RFI passively and lowering the noise threshold; at the end there is now NO COMPARISON between my system with these cleaning methods or without it...I speak about that because nobody, except some audiophile companies with expansive products, seems to know...Noise is the number one problem in audio for me...My audio gear is very good, but without these cleaning methods I dont like them...Now I am in love with them...Ok I apologize for my rant, I was mocked many times ,I hope spirits are more open here...My best to all of you...


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## johnjen

Welcome to this thread where trial and error are useful tools in learning about how we can improve our playback systems for our enjoyment.
Mocking, denigrating, belittling is not what happens in this thread, as in it's not allowed (see the 1st post).

Many have a hard time with 'out there' experiments and unusual solutions for a variety of reasons, many of which are based upon opinion with little or no actual direct experience to support it.  Such is the way many approach this hobby.

And I see this hobby as a way to explore and discover those aspects we are curious about, regardless of what others may think about it.
We can use our talents and abilities to find out if these areas of interest can and do interact and can enable our enjoyment of music for the '*better*', or not, as we experiment etc.

As for crystals and other natural minerals etc, I too have noticed beneficial effects and mostly for the betterment of the SQ when used appropriately.
By that I mean it can be over done, as in too much of a 'good thing' can make too much of a change and the SQ tends to go flat and lifeless.

And I agree that noise is a source of SQ deterioration and in a variety of ways, many of which most know little about, as in they aren't aware nor interested in this subject.
But in some cases when theses types of noise are removed, there can be a substantial difference.

Such aspects as simple mass loading of the case, absorption of RF and 'stray' EM fields, the reduction in the amount of noise on the ac power ground that is connected to all of our gear, can and (in my experience) does make a difference, and for the *'better'*.

And I too agree that simple designs and simple systems can result is '*better*' SQ and make for greater enjoyment of our music.
My BIG amp is an example of a simple basic design, at least from one point of view, and the results reflect this design approach.

So explore, experiment and discover what works for you in your system, but most importantly enjoy your music, which is (at least for me) the whole point of ALL of this.

JJ


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## richard51

Thank you very much for this kind and wise words...I will stay tune ...Wish you the best...


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## johnjen

So the progress continues on the HP/pre-amp.
 
This is Proto #2 in the build stage.

And the BIG amp is undergoing yet another circuit modification, but the snow in Seattle has delayed the arrival of parts.
I guess the old ditty of 'neither rain nor sleet nor dead of night…………" has it's limits, and like ≈ 7-8" of snow in Seattle seems to be one of them.  hahahahahaahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen

Win the Internet for a day by figuring out what these custom tweako parts are for.

 



JJ


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## richard51

?


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## shyamwanne

johnjen said:


> Win the Internet for a day by figuring out what these custom tweako parts are for.



OK, They look like stand-offs, spacers, or feet, to raise a part of the board or cabinet


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## johnjen (Feb 13, 2019)

Yeah they are made using spacers and standoffs for sure, but they have been 're-purposed' for a completely different end use.
Ok so I'll leave some clues, here is,
Hint #1.
They now act as a type of 'voltage adjustment tool' for the BIG amp.

I mean I can't just let the cat out of the bag that easy, what with the prize being KING of the internet for a whole day and all.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahaaa

JJ


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## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Yeah they are made using spacers and standoffs for sure, but they have been 're-purposed' for a completely different end use.
> Ok so I'll leave some clues, here is,
> Hint #1.
> They now act as a type of 'voltage adjustment tool' for the BIG amp.
> ...



I'll take a stab at it!
Is this your DIY tool for adjusting TUBE bias?
So did I win?


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## johnjen (Feb 14, 2019)

YES!!!!!
YOU WIN!!!!!…!!!!!!
the internet for a whole day of your choosing.
Be the envy of all your friends and bask in the limelight and notoriety. 

And for bonus points, can you tell the audience at home, HOW they adjust the tube bias?

JJ


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## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> YES!!!!!
> YOU WIN!!!!!…!!!!!!
> the internet for a whole day of your choosing.
> Be the envy of all your friends and bask in the limelight and notoriety.
> ...



It's as simple as turning the bias adjustment screw until you see the tubes perform some fireworks and BLOW UP!
lol


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## gefski

For the BIG amp, I thought it would require one of these!


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## gefski (Feb 14, 2019)

Sorry double post.


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## johnjen (Feb 15, 2019)

Muziqboy said:


> It's as simple as turning the bias adjustment screw until you see the tubes perform some fireworks and BLOW UP!
> lol


We are diligently taking steps to avoid that particular scenario and all related incendiary type possibilities…
hahahahahahahahahahaha

But since there are no trim pots, and really no pots anywhere in the entire circuit, the inability to crank it to 11 is built into the amp as a safety feature, probably to keep me from, 'seeing what happens if I do THIS'…
As in no fireballs in the living room, thank you very much…
hahahahahahahahahaha

But those custom tweako parts demonstrate the 'true to form' DIY nature of this BIG 45 amp…
Those re-purposed standoffs, bolts and nuts are slugs, and are sized as AA and 1/2AA batteries so that I can remove a single battery from the 4xAA battery pack holders, and thus very easily lower the bias voltage.
This allowed me to drop from 6vdc to 4.5vdc and from 54vdc to 48vdc by removing just one AA and one 1/2AA battery from each quad battery pack.
And cost nothing as they all came from my collection of assorted nuts-bolts-screws-washers etc.

The perfect solution to a situation in an amp in development…
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Feb 15, 2019)

gefski said:


> For the BIG amp, I thought it would require one of these!


Yeah that would be about what we'd require to adjust the 300VDC B+.

The only problem is it might exceed the floors ability to hold it up and so it could fall thru to the crawl space under the house.
hahahahahahahahah.

JJ


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## johnjen

dup


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## johnjen (Feb 24, 2019)

Ok so a status report on the BIG 45 Amp as it sits just out of elbows reach to my right.

I finished tweaking all the bias currents and filament voltages and have accrued ≈ 48hrs and the SQ has taken a "mother may I?", "why yes you can", leap up in REALNESS to say the least.

There are very few observable changes other than a proliferation of quad AA battery packs squeezed in between xfmrs and 'telephone pole' type voltage drop resistorators, all used to independently tweak the bias on each tube so they are matched and running 'close enough' to ideal.
And the 45 filaments are matched to 0.001vac at 2.5vac with a 1.5amp draw from 2 separate supplies.
I was really surprised they just fell into place like that.

And I measured the current draw on the batteries used to 'power' the bias circuit and it measures as 0.00µa when the amp is off,
and skyrockets up to a whopping 0.05µa when the amp is on.
Which means the battery packs will die of old age before they get drained.
Put another way, they will self discharge faster than the power being drawn in the bias circuits.
AND there is the possibility that the circuits (the grid or the cathode) they are 'polarizing' at a set dc battery voltage, will also tend to want to 're-charge' it, at the same time it is being used as a 'constant' voltage source.
Which in turn means, the battery packs get charged and maintained as they are being used.

A nifty trick if ever there was one.

JJ


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## Muziqboy

Good to hear about the progress of your BIG Eye Yourn amp! lol.
Will you be bringing this to the upcoming meet? that's if you will be attending. Would love to hear it.

Anyway, just want to report a tweak and modification project I just finished recently and MAN! what an upgrade in SQ. Talk about REALISM to the MAX!
Been listening to this DAC since acquiring it after the Bottlehead meet last year and I was surprised to hear the SQ compared to my Battle-worn Theta.
And that was with it being powered by it's internal switching ps. So you know, the gears in my head started turning at the thought of what would be the result if I replaced it with an LPS.
This surgery was not as easy like what we did on the RN3 since this thing actually uses both 5vdc and dual polarity +/-18v so the hunt went on to find the lowest noise regulators I can find.
I think you probably know what regs. I used on this. 
And it can be powered by both an LPS or the Li-ion batteries for a real off-grid powered DAC! I had to deal with thermal shutdowns of the regs. at first go but nothing that a good-ole fashioned cooling fan can't cure.

And I am happy to say that no one that I know of or heard have done this to this DAC so I can claim the bragging rights on this one! 
Hint! Hint! see sig. below to see what DAC it is. 

If I can make it on Sunday, I'll bring this with the rest of the rig. The Theta can rest at home! hahahaha!


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## johnjen

Say there Muziqboy.
Ah yes, yet more tweaking the degree of refinement of our PSU's, with 'satisfactory+' results!!!

It can be quite amazing how much the PSU contributes to the overall SQ of the devices they power.
As both you and I have demonstrated to ourselves, repeatedly.  hahahahahahahaha

So did you monitor the noise levels as you added stages of regulation?
Ya know for SCIENCE and all?
And to what level of noise have you reached on the +5vdc and ±18vdc rails? 
Ya know curiosity and all…

And there is yet another rather 'rare' tweak that can be applied to our dacs that could result in BIGGLEY SQ changes. And it turns out, may in some cases, be 'easy' to implement.
I haven't jumped into this 'new' rabbit hole quite yet, myself, and it will take some sleuthing and experimenting on our part to know how to dial it all in, but it has that DIY'r magnetic attraction and combination of simple to describe, and to visualize, enough so that we can all too easily get sucked into wanting to pull the covers off and start poking around, perhaps even with a hot solder iron in hand.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

As for hauling this BIG eye-irn amp to the show, um, it would take a van and 2 of us to haul this monstrosity of an amp around, along with it's support entourage of additional hardware and tools, not to mention that this amp wants a 'hot' balanced signal voltage source to feed it (like a Jggy with 4v outputs).

But the HP/pre-amp being built should be much more 'portable', and is designed (at least as one of it's functions) as a meet rig, but alas it won't be ready for this meet.
Hopefully it will be finished and functional for the meets thereafter.

But what I will bring are my gen-6 HD800-JMods, just so I can hear your rig…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

More later

JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Don't have any measuring equipment for the noise so don't know what the numbers are on the quad stage but I'm pretty sure it's lower than 0.8uv and on the dual polarity, the published noise are 4uv on the positive rail and 16uv on the negative rail, anyway the best measuring equipment I have on hand are my ears as I did hear an improvement for the better compared to the stock SMPS.  

Measurements are good to see and all but in the end for me, it is what I hear in the music that really matters.


----------



## gefski

Muziqboy said:


> Don't have any measuring equipment for the noise so don't know what the numbers are on the quad stage but I'm pretty sure it's lower than 0.8uv and on the dual polarity, the published noise are 4uv on the positive rail and 16uv on the negative rail, anyway the best measuring equipment I have on hand are my ears as I did hear an improvement for the better compared to the stock SMPS.
> 
> Measurements are good to see and all but in the end for me, it is what I hear in the music that really matters.



So still delivering files via Dante/AES? Anxious to listen!


----------



## Muziqboy

Yup! Still same Dante set-up and that will never change since there is nothing out there at the moment that can de-throne it.

Only change is the DAC I am using now and to my surprise probably edges the Theta in SQ specially after I tweaked and modified the power supply.


----------



## johnjen

Muziqboy said:


> Don't have any measuring equipment for the noise so don't know what the numbers are on the quad stage but I'm pretty sure it's lower than 0.8uv and on the dual polarity, the published noise are 4uv on the positive rail and 16uv on the negative rail, anyway the best measuring equipment I have on hand are my ears as I did hear an improvement for the better compared to the stock SMPS.
> 
> Measurements are good to see and all but in the end for me, it is what I hear in the music that really matters.


I understand completely.
And ya know there are lots of DVM's that can measure in dB and our local favorite supplier of DVM's, Fluke, does make some decent 'low cost' units.
Just a thought.

However there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of noise reduction on the power supply rails as the load the power supply is feeding is digital, which means LOTS of noise, as in WAY noisier than would be found if it were an analog load.
I noticed this when I was replacing the smps's on the Mutecs and on my ethernet to optical to ethernet bridge that feeds the digital audio signal from the computer to the RN3.
These digital circuits are really noisy, so much so that they will swamp out the small amount of noise from the regulators, AFTER the regulator has done its job and handed the voltage to the downstream load.
I expected this would be the case and my measurements reflected it.

But like you, I did find that adding a 2nd stage regulator did help the SQ of the device it was applied to, so a 3rd and 4th stage may be overkill in some regards but it should prove useful as a benchmark.   

And I get the feeling that this meet will be quite memorable for several reasons.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So there has been significant forward and sideways progress in our quest for a fully tweaked and dialed in tubification approach.

Namely the BIG 45 amp is still settling in after that initial 40+hr blossom action.
Currently it has ≈ 115hrs since the bias tweaking and is following patterns of break in I have witnessed previously, but with differences.
Specifically the timing issues (when the SQ peaks and dips and holds steady etc) are different, thus the sideways progress.

The forward progress is with the HP/pre-amp.
It has recently reached a state of tweak that has resulted in a MAJOR step up in SQ as a HP amp.
This, as you might imagine, is most welcome news, and there remains much tweaking yet to do, which should raise the bar yet again.

The designs have morphed more times than could be documented, and the end to this stage of development is not yet insight.
As I have put it before, the amp is 'getting out of its own way' more and more with wondrous results.

Which portends that it's SQ will be a 'close match' to the beauty of it's wood work.
We sometimes refer to this HP/pre-amp as a 'mini-me' version of the BIG 45 amp, and right now it appears it has surpassed it's BIG predecessor.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So an update.

The BIG 45 amp has just passed the 200hr mark and has settled in quite nicely with the SQ seemingly not calling attention to itself in anyway…

Except when it should, like when I crank on the MOAR knob.
Those are the moments when I pause what I am doing and look over at the amp and go, 'did you just do that?'
And as I finish the Danse Boheme from Carmen where it concludes with a thunderous drum hit, I just shake my head, smile and enjoy the amazement.

And news from the HP/pre-amp is that this purple heart wood is hard as a rock, as in, it chews up drill bits like we snarf on popcorn, fast an furious.
It seems it comes from the same family of woods as iron wood, for those that know about woods.

It is being assembled and wired in it's purdy new chassis with operational functionality soonish…

Yet another teaser…




JJ


----------



## johnjen

Update - upgrade - report - status - news at 11.

So I've been fussing with the BIG 45 amp a bit more.
I added 15Ω resistorators to the output xfmrs.
This effectively increased the load the output tubes and output xfmr 'sees' because instead of the spread of the load from ≈ 330 to 680Ω that the 800's present to the amp, the spread is now 14.4 ±0.1Ω, which is not only closer to the 16Ω load the xfmr 'expects' to see but also the Ω curve is MUCH flatter.
This made a BIG (in keeping with the theme for this BIG 45 amp) change for the better in the SQ of the amp.

The Magic in the Mids has taken a decided step up along with just about every other acoustic and sonic attribute I look for (see the 1st post for the list, hahahahahaha).
I figure that adding additional load to the output helps in a number of ways beyond what has been mentioned above.

I also have changed the output wiring from the 45 tube to the output xfmr with indeterminate results thus far.
I can say, it hasn't resulted in a SQ reduction, but that may not be 'enough' since the aim is to achieve '*Better'*.
I'll need to give it ≈200hrs+ before I'll know if this last change is truly *'Better'* or not.

This 200hr runtime mark has been repeated numerous times and was again reinforced after I tweaked the Bias voltages and current on all 4 tubes.
I figure that the 2 tweaks above will also 'blossom' after this 200hr mark is reached.
And there may well be additional SQ improvements at greater runtime amounts, but I keep fussing with the circuit and so I never reach much beyond 2-300hrs of continuous , unmolested, operation.

But the SQ at this point rivals the best this amp has ever produced.
I feel my skull getting thumped when the very bottom end gets triggered by some extended bass note or concussive effect (think cannons, or those BIG 6' stand up drums).
Now I just have to wait for ≈ 2.5 weeks at ≈ 12hrs/day, and this is the kicker, LEAVE IT ALONE, as in NO changes.
Of course my will power only can be stretched so far, as additional parts ARE inbound, 
and, well, see, it's like this…

There is only 1 set of caps directly in the audio path, in the entire analog section of this amp, which means they ARE the single weakest point in terms of SQ.
And if we keep these parafeed output xfmrs we have to keep ALL the DC voltage from reaching them, but at the same time let ALL the music thru.
Which translated means, I have another set of output caps inbound and they are much more closely matched to the desired spec of 5.7µf ± 0.2µf.

And for those that know about tweako caps, they can all to quickly, get WAY beyond silly expensive, sorta like tubes and xfmrs etc.

And in other news…
The HP/pre-amp is moving closer, ever closer, to my domicile, literally, as the base of operations for it's build is 'on the move'.
Sorry, there is no film at 11.
hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Mar 20, 2019)

I truly must be weak willed when it comes to tweaking my tunes.
But ya know I think it's a good thing because it speeds up the forward progress, and significantly so.

The Audyn 5.6µf @600vdc caps showed up today, and of course i HAD to install them, well, just because.
The SQ immediately took a step up, and in unexpected ways.
And that was after only ≈ 1hr of playing.

What was most immediately apparent was an increase in the acoustic power delivered from cymbals and other high freq percussive instruments.
Additionally horns and the like have also become more 'powerful' in their acoustic contribution.
It isn't that they are louder, or their basic character changes, well other than saying it's more like the real instrument sounds.

But it is that, there is more there, there, and viscerally so.
And I see this as the result that more of the generated acoustic power is properly delivered to my ears, which in turn means less of that acoustic power is not focused where it shouldn't be, in the first place.
Think about, that the 'set amount' of energy is being smeared thru time, which has now been reduced and instead has been delivered when and as it is supposed to be.

Cymbals, like in a drum kit, are powerful.
Think about it, you have a 12" or 16" round tuned plate of metal that is designed to ring from it's entire surface.
And when whacked can fill a room.

That presence, that visceral power just got turned up a notch or 2, with this new cap.
And I still need to give it 200+hrs, but if this cap upgrade follows the same 'settling in' pattern as other tweaks with this type of immediate improvement right out of the gate, well…
But there are at least 3 more 'refinement' experiments to follow, all centered around this cap change.

And these results lend even more weight to my experiments dealing with the 'optimal' orientation of non-polarized film caps along with alternative placement of these caps within the circuit.

So as the SQ continues to climb to new peaks, using all of the descriptors I have come up with, which individually and collectively all add up to *'Better'*, the net effect thus far, is that this amp, is the single greatest step up in SQ I have yet made.
However it is standing upon ALL of the previous tweaks and improvements made thus far, which tends to skew this title of being the mostest, goodest, not to mention the amount and number of tweaks it has been the recipient of itself…

And the one that is the most satisfying, strangely enough, is *I5* (Intelligibility) where the words sung are more obvious and clear as to what the actual words are.
So instead of trying to choose from possibilities, due to being able to hear the inflection it becomes more obvious what the meaning actually is.

This in turn provides a greater depth to the appreciation behind the lyrics and indeed the entire song.

JJ


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## gefski

Thanks JJ, for nailing, once again, why we spend time and $ on this stuff.

Throughout Head-Fi there are sometimes soooo many posts just talking about frequency response comparisons -- bass-mid-treble, bass-mid-treble, on and on, that the joy of music seems far off.

Right now I'm listening to Ralph Towner guitar & Gary Peacock bass, the guitar string attacks and KNOCK on the body, supported by rhythmic power and presence of Peacock's foundation, has me, as you suggest, feeling I'm sharing exactly the alive interaction between these two. (And these aren't "phoned in" performances, they are IN that studio)


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## johnjen (Mar 21, 2019)

Yeah many are drawn to the specs as *THE* major focal point in our hobby.
But until there is the direct experience with SQ that eclipses those numbers and graphs, they tend to remain as the final arbiter of what is important, at least for them.

And while numbers and graphs are helpful, for me, they are but the initial starting point, in considering to acquire a piece of gear, or not.
And that's about where these numbers and graphs start and stop.

For me it's the *experience* of listening to and getting swept up in the music, which has little to nothing to do with measurements, nor the technical side of all of this.
And there are countless examples of gear that measure superbly yet fail to grab me by the ears and won't let go.

But then we all have our own sets of proclivities and desired aspects we seek in listening to music.
And of course since we as a group listen to music for different reasons, i.e. some listen TO the music while some listen FOR the music, this distinction alone helps us refine those experiences we seek when we have our systems play music for us.

This in my mind is also directly related to the degree of *'Calibration'* we have experienced, as in what is the 'best' we have ever heard and to what extent is attaining/maintaining that level of SQ (or exceeding it) important?
We each will have a different answer, and I for one like to push the edges of the envelope from the technical side, mostly because I have the experience and understanding to do so.

But the final decision to keep any tweak is solely based upon the acoustic results, not what the specs say.
And for me the specs are a form of feedback of what I have changed, but not what I have achieved.

My BIG 45 amp is prime example of this.
It has eclipsed and set a new level of peak SQ, and I don't have a clue what it's freq response is.
I have yet to measure it, as it isn't important at this point in the development of this amp, since it would be devoid of any useful significance, nor would it lead to any actionable steps to take.

And as I sit here and listen to Eric Clapton's Unplugged album there is absolutely NO desire to want to know what ANY of the 'normal' specifications are for this amp.
They just have no meaning while listening.
And I'm anticipating when I play Walkin' Blues, because the stage riser acts like a drum head with his footfalls being the 'kicker'…

JJ


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## johnjen

So this cap change has delivered, BIG time (I couldn't resist ), new peak levels of performance.
So instead of waiting for those 200hrs to accumulate, I've ordered 2 sets of Hovland SuperCap bypass caps to push the total capacitance closer to 6µf to find out where the true sweet spot actually is.

But at this point the dynamic quotent of the *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) has risen yet again to new levels of visceral impact on all *'voices'.* 
But where it's most noticeable is in the low end as all manner of bass has attained a degree of nuance and inner focus I have never heard before, at all, ever.
It isn't how loud or powerful the low end is, rather it's how the related harmonics 'flesh out' the bass lines, as in how much more there is, there.

But the mids are also improved and becoming more resolving, which among other aspects yields an increase in the perceived contribution the soundstage makes to the overall sound.  
This is related to both *C3* and *I5* (Cohesive, Coherent, Coupled & Intelligibility).
Such studio aspects as the use of background echo, and other 'effects' are more easily heard as and what they truly are, all the while enhancing and melding with their 'parents' '*Voice*' (the instrument that the effect is enhancing).
And this is a wonderful addition to orchestral music as the hall now contributes more of it's share to the ambiance which adds richness and *REALNESS* to the music.

And the tinkle tinkles on top are also more refined and REAL as that same increase in the degree of inner detail and focus mentioned above results in being able to more easily make out those subtle cues that reveal the true nature of the guitar plucks, cymbal hits, snare drum brush strokes, etc. 
Like whether it’s the plastic nubbin on the end of the drum stick or the wooden end that is tapping on the bell of the high hat.
The 'acid test' will be if I can hear all of those little rivets rattling on a sizzle cymbal, AS rivets (and perhaps even be able to count them ).

So I'm rather pleased and await the results of the next few experiments (adding just a touch more capacitance to dial in this portion of the sweet spot) and get the new caps fully 'settled in' etc.

And the re-design of this BIG 45 amp has some MAJOR design advances in store for its final build.

I'll write up what is involved in separate posts, as these design aspects, while they are not new, except in how and where they are going to be applied, and what they will accomplish, are somewhat novel.
AND they are in keeping with the overall design criteria of using old school techniques, simplicity, low parts count, no resistors nor caps (well, maybe 2 caps) in the signal path, and NO regulators (in the strictest sense of the term).

And since I still need to wrap my head around some of the design and functional niftyness that this direct coupled, all single triode, BIG 45 amp, with all of ≈1.5 watts/channel of earthquake pounding power, will deliver, it might take me a bit to be able to write up an adequate description of what is being accomplished.

JJ


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## johnjen (Mar 27, 2019)

So tonight I'm playing with how much is too much, vs. is enough, vs. is the sweet spot, on the cap values for the one cap in the audio path.
5.7µf is enough, 5.9µf was too much, 5.8µf seems to be somewhere on or just over the peak, time will tell.

And the difference between L & R runs from 0.01 to 0.0075µf, and so once again I lucked out in being able to match them this closely.

The SQ is morphing with peaks from around the corner of major blossom action ahead.
And there is this new degree of 'clarity' to the acoustic 'image' that I/we create in our minds eye.

It's like another one of those veils was removed, ya know the one you never saw before, until after it's gone.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 4, 2019)

So I've settled down on 5.83µf ±.01µf as the sweet spot on these parafeed output xfmr dc blocking caps.

It's a 3 cap stack made of an Audyn 5.71µf + Hovland SuperCap 0.9µf + a Hovland Musicap 0.022µf (all as measured, not rated).

This is where I was back on the 3/27, only now I have added ≈60hrs and the SQ blossom factor is slowly and steadily increasing.
And reaching yet greater levels of SQ as the hrs accumulate.

And yet again *I5* (Intelligibility) is the single most welcome improvement as lyrics become all the more clear and 'meaningful'.

And so far I have 3 pages of written material on the designs for final build of the BIG 45 amp.
I have yet to figure the organization and how much background detail to include in this write up so it will make sense and be comprehensible to those who aren't familiar with the inner details of tube amp design.

And it appears at this point we will depart from a 'strictly' old skewl design approach and use some sillycone based devices, along with even more TUBZ.
And it will be a directly coupled amp, which if you know what that means/implies is somewhat unique, except for DIY custom one off designs, which this is but one example.

Generally 'mass produced' tube amps don't dare use a direct coupled design due to their ability, under some conditions, to fail catastrophically and in a cascade mode where when a 'stage' goes sideways, it trips the next stage, or the power supply or, or…
This is mostly a design issue, or should be.

So next I'm gunna play with the resistance I added to the output xfmrs and see where the sweet spot is.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 4, 2019)

Oh yeah, I meant to add that those 0.022µf Hovland Musicaps are 'Very Special' in that they really help the top end all the way down into the upper mids.
I was surprised at how much additional detail and visceral impact they contributed to such '*voices*' as cymbals and even picolo's etc.
And that they 'blended' all of this nuance and inner focus seamlessly into the entire bandwidth was unexpected as well.

And the proclivity for tube amps to be able to self destruct is embedded in the basic's of what is needed to be able to run tubz, not to mention how they can operate.
I mean when you have several farads of stored electrical energy at elevated voltages, which all adds up to a substantial amount of potential energy, and then if a component fails (which fortunately doesn't happen very often) there has to be a place for all that energy to go, or keep from going, as the case may be.

This is all part of the designers art, to be able to accommodate any and all contingencies, regardless.
These issues, from a manufacturing and support POV, *HAVE* to be handled, and the design *HAS* to "accommodate any and all contingencies, regardless."
Or the business won't survive, for the obvious reasons.

And direct coupled amps pose additional challenges in that there is nothing to block the output from one tube that then feeds directly to the input to the next tube, and so if the upstream output voltage should 'exceed the need', the next stage can also 'exceed the need' and that's when melt down can become 'spectacular'.

The thing is, direct coupled amps are essentially the purest types of designs due to their simplicity and minimal parts count in the audio path.
They also tend to minimize the phase shift as the signal passes thru the amp (no caps).
And since direct coupled amps don't let the audio signal pass thru any interstage caps, (nor are there and bleed resistors), the music signal is 'altered' as little as possible since it's only traveling thru wire and tubes, with but one exception in this case.

That being the parafeed DC blocking and coupling cap.
Which is why I was working at optimizing this one critical component's placement in the audio circuitry, and dialing in the amount of capacitance to tweak the SQ.

Some may know that while tubz are important in terms of the overall SQ of any tube amp, the output xfmr is actually more important and has a greater effect on the actual performance and SQ of the amp.

But unfortunately, rolling xfmrs just isn't 'a thing'.
And thankfully they just aren't 'plug and play', not by any stretch, (can you imagine what COULD happen if…?)

And we chose parafeed output xfmrs because they are capable of extended low frequency response (these Sowter 8995's have a power bandwidth of -3dB at 5hz & 60KHz).
And a direct coupled amp should be able to reach those power bandwidth numbers far easier than any other design, and this 2 single triodes (per channel) design is not limiting this bandwidth either.
As such this amp is, even now as I type this, able to reach our original design goals, and then some.

I keep looking over at it and saying "did you just do that?" and then shake my head in amazement as I listen to a Cat Stevens track from 1971…

And for those who are familiar with my 'special re-purposed terms' (see the 1st post for the list) the amp is now getting *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) with a full helping of *I HEARD* thrown in for good measure.

And I've only reached ≈ 80hrs, which isn't even half way to the magic number of 200hrs.

JJ


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## johnjen

So I'm hot on the trail of dialing in the added 15Ω load resistors to the secondaries of the parafeed output xfmrs.
These 15Ω resistors which are in parallel with the 800's (≈350-650Ω impedance), which results in a 'reflected load' of 14.5Ω ±0.2 instead of 16Ω.

Yeah this certainly seems to qualify as an exercise in the picking of nits, however…
This relates directly to the load the tube 'sees', so optimizing the voltage and current it operates with, tweaks its 'environment' so to speak.
Which in turn means it's operating in it's 'happy zone' and not being forced outside of that optimal envelope.

At least that's the course of action I'm experimenting with to find out if these numbers will reflect in SQ improvements, or not.

JJ


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## Royaume

Help!!! I am buying an Yggy with 110V transformer. I need to replace it with 230V transformer. Can you offer advice and recommend good audiophile-grade replacement transformers? Am I even taking the right approach? All help greatly appreciated.


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## johnjen

Say there, 
I answered your post in the Schiit Yggdrasil thread…
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-635#post-14884132.

And no, the transformer itself does not have to be replaced, it does need to have it's primary connections re-wired.
But as I mentioned this is dangerous, and best to have a qualified electronic tech do the work.

JJ


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## johnjen

So during my output impedance fussings, I have tried using 15Ω and 20Ω and 23Ω load resistors and determined that,
#1 this tweak has a much bigger impact than I would have thought.
#2 even tenths of an Ω can make a difference.
#3 nailing the final Ω raises the SQ bar yet again.

These small changes from 15Ω to 20Ω to 23Ω clearly make an obvious difference and it is relatively easy to know fairly quickly, as in within 1 hr of playing time.

Due to the math, 0.1Ω changes to the secondary of the output xfmr, at these low values (≈20Ω), makes a reflected load change of ≈15Ω, which the tube sees directly.

So it looks like a 16.9Ω to 17.0Ω is the optimized resistor value, which I have concocted using 3 resistors.
And the SQ has peaked yet again, with only ≈5hrs of playing time.

I'm hoping to find a matched pair of single resistors that meet this spec., but 17Ω is an 'uncommon' value to say the least.

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 12, 2019)

Back in Jan of 2016 I posted about
*Phase Δ Reduction, 
A Thought Experiment…*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-14#post_12228607

And in it I used the analogy of how a moiré pattern is created and how as layers of the same pattern were rotated wrt each other, complex moiré patterns would emerge then simplify, then morph into complex patterns and so on as the layers continued to rotate towards perfect alignment, where all that remained was the original pattern.

Then take this analogy one step further and imagine the original pattern is the music signal, (with it's layers and their degree of alignment), and as it passes thru the circuit, with various degrees of being 'unmolested', so to speak, we can approach ever closer to just the original musical signal as the alignment approaches perfect alignment.

I bring this up again because the BIG 45 amp (which currently has 12 xfmrs, 10 PSU filter caps, 4 battery packs, 4 tubes, and only 2 caps and no resistors in the signal path) is demonstrating this moiré pattern as the amp continues to settle in and as the soundstage and all *'Voices'* within it, come into tighter focus and greater resolution, the SQ continues to raise the bar on more or less ALL of the sonic and acoustic attributes I have identified and use to determine what, in fact, truly is *'Better'*.

It also reinforces my idea about how, as the number of *CP's* (Choke Points) are reduced, those that remain, when ameliorated, yield much greater than expected results.

This last tweak of dialing in the Ω on the output xfmrs has accentuated this process, but again in unexpected ways.

For instance the improvement to the overall SQ took a major step up with the 15Ω load resistors, and stayed, but changed slightly, with the 20Ω loads, and then the SQ fell off with the 23Ω loads.
The peak SQ returned and has reached new heights after I changed to 17Ω loads, where it remains as the hrs. accumulate (now at ≈ 50hrs)

The moiré patterns are still coming and going but the range of complexity (the degree of being out of focus vs, being in focus) has now narrowed considerably.
In that now when the complexity is at max levels, the SQ is still better than in the past when at max complexity.
And when the original pattern (music signal) is molested the least, new peak levels of SQ are set (the performance bar has risen yet again to new heights).

IOW the max complexity has reduced max levels, along with the max alignment also gaining tighter and tighter focus with greater resolution for all aspects of the soundstage.

And right now as I listen to Eric Clapton's Pilgrim album and as the amp is transitioning from complexity to alignment, as the SQ is blossoming,
I can't take my 800's off, yet again.


And additional developments are brewing both for the BIG 45 amp final design and build, along with the HP/pre-amp.
And as each step in the design process results in fewer and fewer parts, every portion of the circuit performs even more functions, all at the same time.
This is a 'sideways' way of saying as the circuit design is more and more refined fewer and fewer parts remain, at least in the direct audio path.
The power supply on the other hand is getting more sophisticated (read as complex), yet keeping with the same multiple functions for each portion of the circuit.

Yeah we're having some fun now…  

JJ


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## johnjen

So a ways back the term REALNESS emerged and was associated with using the AOIP method of delivering the digital audio signal to the dac.

My BIG 45 amp is now passing into its second half of settling in, on its way to full Blossom Action.
IOW I'm at ≈100hrs where usually between 100-125hrs the SQ blossoms and in wonderful ways.
And then does so again after ≈200hrs as I have mentioned before.

But what is not just peeking from around the corner, but is running straight for me is, *REALNESS^4* (REALNESS to the 4th power).

For me *REALNESS* began with the enhanced sense of 'being there', of hearing deeply into the music as it is being played, as if I was wired into the master control mixer, like listening to the master recording.

Then there was REALNESS^2, which brought the left to right, and up to down sense of placement, which resulted in being able to locate each *'Voice'* in 2d space.
Then there was REALNESS^3, which added front to back, and with this added sense of depth, how the acoustic environment 'held onto', and then released, this 'stored' acoustic energy.

Tonight *REALNESS^4* is coming to the fore where the entire soundstage is being presented with a new sense of wholeness along with a duration thru time.
This ability to deliver the whole acoustic soundstage and maintain it with stability and cohesiveness, yields a new degree (*REALNESS^4*) to the ongoing 'stream' of the music, as it is being heard.

It's like there isn't a drum hit over there, or a guitar over here, etc.
Rather it's music, and as it is being played before me in a REAL way, it isn't disjointed nor segmented into this *'Voice'* and that *'Voice'*, but as a whole where all *'Voices'* are seamlessly integrated into the soundstage AND where the sense of dimensional placement and the full acoustical context is 'built in, not added on'.
AND where all of the acoustical energy being created 'comes from' it's parent *'Voice'*, thru time, which is tied into *tLFF* and less smearing of the creation of the acoustic energy thru time.

You could also describe this experience as, the music is playing in this ongoing continual NOW.
And this applies to ALL of the music, not just the 4 and 5 star rated tracks.

Which yields hearing my music as if being heard anew, yet again, 
one moar time with FEELING…!

Bwaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Apr 18, 2019)

So an update…

I have been searching for a matched pair of 16.8 to 17.0Ω resistors, to tweak the output of the parafeed output xfmrs, with no luck, no matter where I looked and no matter who I asked if they could provide any such items of interest.
And 17Ω resistors simply are not made in the first place, so I was hoping that either 16Ω or 18Ω might work if they were over or under value (respectively).
So I have been ordering resistors in batches of various types and values in hopes of lucking out.
And thus far nothing even came close…
Either they were WAY to high or WAY to low, but no mama porridge anywhere in sight.

So I made a pair that are matched to 0.04Ω (16.98Ω & 17.02Ω) by filing a 'notch' into a pair 15.8Ω carbon film 1 watt resistors.
I suppose I could get them even closer but since this is a prototype and not the final build this will be 'good enough'.
hahahahahahahahahaha

Now in reality, neither the headphones, nor the secondaries of the output xfmrs are anywhere near matched this closely, so this is an exercise in the picking of nits.
But I did replace the 3 resistor build I was using to get close (≈17.2Ω) with single resistors which should be a tweak in and of itself.

And notching the resistors is a 'trick' that I had heard about when using carbon composition resistors, to dial them to reach a desired value.
And due to carbon comp resistors susceptibility to their rated Ω rising thru time from moisture absorption, and when coupled with their SQ desirability, other DIY'rs figured out how to 'compensate' for this issue.
And this 'trick' also works with film resistors.

They are settling in quite nicely as I write this post, so another check list item bites the dust…

And the final build design for the BIG 45 amp is down to 2 finalists, both of which are even simpler that my current build (fewer parts and direct coupled etc.).

This is the current build schematic of the analog section.
With only 2 changes, the single cap in the audio path has moved to the 'other side' of the output xfmr, and the addition of 17Ω resistors across the outputs (pins 1-2 and 3-4)

45 amp analog circuit 1:2019.pdf

JJ


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## johnjen

Well those who have followed this thread for any length of time have probably figured out by now that 'good enough' usually doesn't last very long…
It's sorta like saying 'soon', which could be minutes to months…   hahahahahahaha

Especially since the very next day my shipment of 15Ω 1watt Carbon Comp resistors showed up and the shorter version of the medium to long story is, I now have a set of 16.8Ω ±0.003 CC resistors in place and I'm listening to them 'settle in' even as I type this with just under 30hrs of total 'on' time since they were made back in the 40's-50's-60's.

It's gunna take a while for these 'vintage' resistors to fully blossom and as a contrast, the previous 17.2Ω Carbon Film were initially 'impressive' which could be a sign of the 'Bose Effect', where this impressive effect wears thin and becomes tiresome, so to speak.  Testing continues.

But these CC resistors are on a sneaky/stealth approach, where seemingly out of nowhere a nuance just glides right on by, followed by its cousin, just as your attention is raised and gets drawn and focused on this 'new' sonic aspect, much to my delight!

And to be sure these differences are very slight and the final determination may need to made with the final build and not this prototype.
So these experiments are preparatory and give me a better idea of how much change and what kinds of audible differences each approach 'brings to the table'.
And like the output caps, dialing in the amounts of Ω or µf etc. does help me get acquainted with the peak of the range for dialing in these functions.

More as it happens.

JJ


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## johnjen

For those who are at least somewhat familiar with 'cooking your cables', you probably also know they need to be 're-cooked' from time to time.
And for me it's like every 6-9 months.
I've stretched it to 1 year but the SQ falls off quite remarkably.
And if I were afflicted with audio nervosa, I'd probably bump it down to 3-6 months, which thankfully, I'm not THAT persnickety.

Even so, after cooking then get'n e'm settled back in, the net improvement can be startling.

So last night I yanked out just 3 cables, a power cable for the JggyB dac and a pair of balanced IC's, and started the re-cook process.
I left the entire system playing after swapping to back up cables, but went to bed.

So when I donned my 800-Jmods tonight I had forgotten just how much change there can be…
I was immediately reminded, as in, why does this sound closed in and 'pinched', and in several ways at that?

Then the cooker caught my eye with it's status lights flashing away…
Oh, yeah… I be cook'n…

It almost sounds like the difference while listening to music from a mono AM table radio vs a decent FM tuner and stereo system.
And no not quite THAT bad, but the SQ shifts remind me of those kinds of sonic impressions.

And I still have 1 more power cable and another pair of balanced IC's to re-cook, at least for the primary system.
The secondary power cables and AES data feed cables should also get de-scramblated as well, but they can be done piece meal as the opportunity arises.

And re-cooking these cables in small batches like this gives me feed back as to which cables benefit the most from getting re-cooked, again.

JJ


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## johnjen

So all of the primary cables in my system (power and IC's) have been cooked and are back in the system and are settling in.

I also have replaced the 'last' SMPS in my system, that powered my word clock, with a LPS.

Next up are the secondary cables for the AOIP system (power and data cables), which means I'll run a SPDIF feed instead of AES in my AOIP setup during the cable re-cook.

The SQ has already returned to levels reminiscent of previous re-cook cycles, only at newer, higher SQ peaks than before, due to all of the changes made to the system since then, like the BIG 45 amp and the Gen6 800-Jmods, etc.

When I 1st listened to the system after re-installing the dac power cable and main IC's, the change in SQ was in a word, gratifying.
It was startling what the shift in the acoustic presentation was.
There was more *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) everywhere and the bass had its foundation returned.
It now reaches down and once again imparts a degree of visceral impact, that had faded, which is the tell tale sign that I need to re-cook the cables.

But they still need settling in hours before the SQ reaches it's peak.

JJ


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## johnjen

So FINALLY the cables have settled in enough to where that enticing and much sought after *MatM* (Magic in the Mids) has returned, at least enough that it has my head dancing on my shoulders yet again. 
But since I'm still shy of that 200+hr time stamp it will continue to morph and shift.

And I’ll reach that 200+hr mark just in time to undergo another major system change as the HP/pre-amp is inbound and due to arrive next week some time.
And this event will also initiate getting 'serious' with the final build process for the BIG 45 amp.

And depending upon on 'other factors afoot' the BIG 45 amp may get 're-purposed' to drive a set of 'efficient' near field speakers while the HP/pre-amp may become the headphone amp of choice.

These choices have to do with a whole bunch of technical design factors that interact with each other such that the 45 amp may be too powerful (at ≈1.5 watts/ch) and the HP/pre-amp will be better suited for the 800's.

But the ultimate arbiter will be the SQ we achieve.

And we are experimenting with a 4" full range driver in a box (12x12x8) with a transmission line, for added bass boost.
Total parts cost ≈ $100/pair.

I heard a Utoob video of these drivers in a 'nice' box and was suitably impressed despite the fact that it was a video, of a pair of speakers, playing in a room, of a bass cello, and it was VERY impressive.

This type of speaker has many benefits, such as NO crossover, which means the speaker driver is direct coupled to the amp.
And this type of setup is (or can be) very efficient as in 1-2 watts is all that is needed, especially in a near field listening setup.

So a 'Class A' SET amp (Single Ended Triode) can be used in a VERY simple overall system design (very few parts in the audio path) from pre-amp all the way thru to the speaker driver.
And this type of simplified design can deliver surprising SQ far beyond what would be considered possible.

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> So FINALLY the cables have settled in enough to where that enticing and much sought after *MatM* (Magic in the Mids) has returned, at least enough that it has my head dancing on my shoulders yet again.
> But since I'm still shy of that 200+hr time stamp it will continue to morph and shift.
> 
> And I’ll reach that 200+hr mark just in time to undergo another major system change as the HP/pre-amp is inbound and due to arrive next week some time.
> ...


Have fun with the full range single drivers. The few years I spent with my Merrill Zigmahornets (4" driver in an approx. 5" X 5" X 5' (yes 5 feet tall) cabinet) gave me headphone transparency from speakers. Wasn't the best for "big" music, however.


----------



## johnjen

Say there gefski.
Yeah I know what you mean about 'over driving' a set of small drivers, as they can get 'crowded' all to easily especially when pushed to fill a room.
I'm sorta hoping that by just using them in a nearfield setup that I can avoid that 'pinched' kind of SQ, by not needing to drive them all that hard.
Well, except for the bass where I will need to judiciously apply some EQ to see how far I can push the lower freq response.
Hopefully I should be able to reach 'flat' to ≈50Hz, before it falls off the edge of the known universe, but we'll see.

And their design has already changed from a transmission line enclosure to a dbl horn kind of design.
And at last count, their size has more than doubled as well, to 18x24x8.

But all of this is still at the pencil scratchings on bar napkins stage, with horn mathematics rearing it's ugly head.
Can you say differential equations?

Yeah it can make my head hurt just uttering those 2 words, as memories of college math classes surface…   hahahahahahahaha

And it looks like my HP/pre-amp will be 'ready' for our next head-fi meet, but I still need to find a suitable dac to drive it, that, or steal a feed from some body else's balanced dac.
And it'll be a good sized pile of gear to setup, what with the HP/pre-amp being in 2 pieces (16x12x5 each) and the isolation transformer(s) (1 or 2) to feed it.

JJ


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## johnjen (May 11, 2019)

And now for a sneak peek of this dbl decker HPre-amp.
And I figure it's going to look even better in person.

Here is the bottom half, the PSU.
You can tell 'cause it's got the On/Off switch…   hahahahahahahahahahah




Then we have the top end gear, on top of course.
It has all the knobs and input and output connectors,
and tubz, don't forget the 4 tubz.



And no that 3rd knob is not a balance control.
It is the Multi-Function Configuration Setup, Control & Adjustment, Operational Mode Control Switch , the MFSCCAOMCS.
But we'll just call it *The Switch* because it is, and it's the only one.   hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Together they will sit as a stack that will be ≈ 14" high by 16" x 12" and have 4 tubes rising from the top plate.
Along with a few xfmrs,…   I think
I'll know much more in a day or so.

Doncha just love it when a plan comes together?
hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen

So we've been drilling, mounting and soldering etc. on the HPre-amp and it is sounding VERY nice and just needs a few more things dialed in.

We are also rebuilding the BIG 45 amp, but not as the final build, since we are still experimenting with different designs.
It is both simpler and more complex at the same time, but is smaller and more compact as well.

And we found a MAJOR problem with the power delivery at my house, which has been addressed with significant improvements to the SQ of all my audio equipment.
I'll write up what we found in a future post.

More later…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Update…
We now have a functional HPre-amp, built a separate pre-amp nicknamed the CBB-26, rebuilt the BIG 45 amp into a smaller-ish chassis, and built 2.5 sets of experimental horn speakers.

The overall SQ has not just risen, nor exceeded our wildest expectation, nor merely reached new degrees of inner detail and focus…
No, no, no…

We have managed to attain levels of SQ that rival some of the best we have EVER heard, and the tweaking hasn't EVEN begun yet.
Such as, we still have several filament voltage regulators to install to see what they can contribute, let alone different bias circuits and we're looking at adding a TVC (Transformer Volume Control) in the CBB-26, etc.

The horn speakers were the biggest surprise of all of these.
They are simply unbelievable and fantastic at the same time.

I'll go into more detail about these builds later, after all the dust and smoke and bits of metal shavings, sawdust, bits a stray wires, solder blobs, excess hot glue, and tools are put away and I get a chance to listen to all these builds work together as they were mean to.

And what we have come up with thus far is still in it's infancy, as in, we will explore just how far we can push these designs, just because we can.

JJ


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## johnjen

DUALITIES
Analog vs Digital, SE vs Bal, Vinyl vs Tape…

And now another one for the list, HP’s vs Speakers.
Of course this ‘new guy’ isn’t really new at all, as all of these camps each have their share of both pro & opposed sides to these dichotomies.

And until just recently, but only after we were throwing parts around like popcorn on the breeze, was this gap between my speakers and what my 800-Jmods could deliver, so apparent.

And now I have two setups, each with it’s own DSP EQ etc. and they are remarkably similar and completely different all at the same time.

Without stating the obvious TOO much, speakers provide both channels to both ears while headphones don’t.
Also HP’s have their drivers inches away from our ears encased in a ‘carrier assembly’, while speakers operate in a (relatively) free field.

Yet despite these fundamental differences, each acoustical delivery method can deliver captivating and engrossing musical involvement, but from very different directions and end results.

The degree of articulation an acoustic driver generates, falls off with distance, this is a distinct advantage for headphones and the perfect attribute to have for an audio microscope, to be able to delineate as much of the inner details of a musical passage as possible.
HP’s due to their driver to ear distance can excel in this way.

Speakers on the other hand can ‘blend’ the acoustical pressure waves and can do so in ways that ‘paint’ a more wholistic sonic picture, but at the expense of enhanced inner details.
IOW they present more of the whole picture with less of the drill down into it approach, that HP’s can deliver.
And this whole picture includes texture, and spatial cues, and a sense of 3d presence that HP's can have the most difficulty with.

And both my speakers and 800-Jmods are single driver (no crossovers) designs.
But that’s about the end of the similarities.
These speakers use a $10 (on sale) 4” Dynavox driver which has a whizzer cone.
The horn assembly is square starting at 4ロ” and winding up with a 12ロ” opening.

And in this corner we have the 800-Jmods which are my tweaked 800’s which have 56mm drivers (2.2”).

The 800-Jmods have subsonic bass, extended highs and an impressive soundstage, to name a few attributes.

The speakers on the other hand have a compelling midrange with pinpoint ‘Voice’ placement, and a sense of a ’proper’ harmonic relationship with each ‘Voice’.
These are THE best speakers to play Led Zepplin, and the doors, and the Beatles, and many other albums etc, I have ever heard.  
And when the new tube preamp and BIG 45 amp hook up with these horns, well the term MitM (Magic in the Mids) gets a major boost and is redefined to a whole nuther level.

Are these speakers perfect?
Uhmmm, no, 
they have some ‘short comings’, like nothing much below ≈85Hz, and they have resonance holes and peaks in their frequency response.
And need precise alignment and are still in their infancy in terms of refinement of the overall implementation.

Thankfully DSP EQ can come to the rescue and ‘help’ out, somewhat…
But what they present to my ears is a compliment and a reflection of the type of details and engaging ‘suck you into the music’ involvement that I call *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) but without the glue sticking all my hair together.
Instead this *SDSG* is sticking me to my seat, where I keep shaking my head in near disbelief, as nuances and elements of the music reveal themselves anew.

This is the similarity between these 2 acoustical delivery methods, they both are engaging, they both create the musical performance in enticing, compelling and involving ways.
And these speakers do so in ways I never thought that small, full range, horn speakers ever could.
Not to mention their ‘unconventional’ design, along with their use of as cheap a regular dynamic 4” full range speaker driver as I have ever seen.
These aspects, together defy conventional ‘wisdom’, and in ways and with results that are rarely encountered.
And these speakers are cheap, as in dirt cheap, as in ≈$40/pair shipping costs included cheap, for the entire build.

And they scale like a mutha.

Right now I’m running them on my Schiit stack, but when the (not quite as) BIG 45 amp gets more dialed in and is driven by the CBB-26 preamp, these speakers up their game to levels of SQ that simply defy any normal explanation.

They don’t conform to usual horn design parameters, and according to the math and theories and materials normally used for horn speakers they should sound worse than the sound you get from the speakers built into a cheap laptop.

But they don’t.
And so I am re-arranging my desktop setup to accommodate their ungainly shape and size and ‘special’ requirements.
As they continue to surprise and reveal more and more from the music I am accustomed to.
All the while garnering ever more disbelief at what I’m hearing from such  an unusual assemblage of extraneous bits and bobs.

Meanwhile the 45 amp (now a mere shadow of it’s former self at only 18”w x 15”d x 9.5”h) is undergoing last minute modifications with LD1085 voltage regulators for all 4 of the DHT filaments which now uses two matched pairs of 112A driver tubes and 45 output tubes.


Here is a pic of one of the regulators
 



And so it goes.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 16, 2019)

So the re-build on the BIG 45amp has made some major headway of late.

We changed the driver tubes to 112A DHT single triodes, and have added 4) LD1085 based filament regulators, 2 Constant Current Sources (CCS's), and removed 7 of the giant Temco Caps (there are now only 3 in use).
We also removed the signal input xfrms and the interstage xfrms, one of the power supply chokes and all (4) of the additional filament xfmrs.
Also the entire filament matching and distribution telephone pole has been replaced by the filament regulators

And so with all of that iron removed, you'd think the amp would be much smaller and much more open with more space and fewer parts.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa

Before


During


After
 

And while the chassis is completely different, and smaller-ish it actually looks more crowded.
The chassis size has changed from 19" x 12+" x 4+" to 18" x 15" x 9" (including the top side output xfmrs, but not the tubes)

And here is the 'glamor' shot, before the glamor gets added, sort of.
See all the lines and circles and such on the front?
Them're where the glamor ingredients get added…

You know, the inputs and outputs and switches and stuff.

And once I get the holes drilled and the I/O all wired up the amp will be ready to fire up, again, only better now that the whole circuit is nailed down, both figuratively and literally.

Prototypes are like that, they are platforms which enable experimentation and the testing of new design combinations.
These in turn help to 'prioritize' those design aspects in terms of the overall SQ.
This in turn tells us what to use and what NOT to use, both in terms of the specific parts and also specific design approaches.

More as the amp enters operational mode.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 17, 2019)

So I mentioned the CBB-26 pre-amp in the main Schiit thread and someone asked for pics.

So I took a few and posted this …
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-3174#post-15013113

The sharp eyed among you may notice the 45 amp has changed since my previous post.  

JJ


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## pbui44

For those who would like to practice soldering by covering up PCB holes on an expensive and still-incomplete coaster:

https://www.schiit.com/products/coaster


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## johnjen

So as of this evening I've completed the re-build of prototype #3 of the 45 amp, meaning it's ready for a power on test and evaluation, which will wait till tomorrow.

So here are a few pics just to show how purdy it all is.   

The business end with globe tubes from the 30's and 40's
 

and the innerds

 


This build will be MUCH easier and faster to dial in and match the filament voltages and B+ voltage and current feeding the tubes than prototype #2.

This ought to be an interesting exploration into SQ and the adaptability of being able to drive both speakers and headphones.

JJ


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## johnjen

So along with everything else that is changing with all of these mods and builds, I am re-discovering just how persnickity getting and keeping horns aligned and aimed can be.
Moving the horn by 1/2in (or less) in either the x or y direction let alone the z axis and in a near field setting where these kinds of small changes have less impact on directionality etc. is very revealing.

It reminds me of the days way back in the 70's when we aligned horn speakers in a large 'auditorium' and how we could make such small alignment changes and make up to 10dB (or more) acoustic changes to what the audience heard.
And that was with throws of 30-40-50 ft. or more.

Yeah horns can be amazingly sensitive to setup.

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> So along with everything else that is changing with all of these mods and builds, I am re-discovering just how persnickity getting and keeping horns aligned and aimed can be.
> Moving the horn by 1/2in (or less) in either the x or y direction let alone the z axis and in a near field setting where these kinds of small changes have less impact on directionality etc. is very revealing.
> 
> It reminds me of the days way back in the 70's when we aligned horn speakers in a large 'auditorium' and how we could make such small alignment changes and make up to 10dB (or more) acoustic changes to what the audience heard.
> ...



Yep, low frequency wavelengths can be longer than the listening rooms most of us have!


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## johnjen (Jul 3, 2019)

Say there gefski.
Yeah and with the extended low end I look to achieve, MUCH longer wavelengths, as in 20Hz is ≈15M meters or over 9300 miles and my goal is to reach 15Hz which is over 12K miles long.
I don't think I'll have ANY problems with standing waves at those frequencies.
hahahahahahahah..

And in other news…

I was THIS close to getting my Hpre-amp which I have now nicknamed the Purp-Amp back online and operational.




Now I have to wait for more repair parts to arrive since one of the solder tabs on the 9pin tube socket just sheared clean off.
And I need to track down why it's slowly popping fuses.

And I was this close to listening to tubes again.

Such is the way of tube circuit development.

Happy 4th everyone, I sense it will be a celebration to remember.

JJ


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## johnjen

A couple of additional 'glamor' shots.
Now with mockup labels.

 


 


Next up is the back panel.

JJ


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## johnjen

And 2 shots of the rear…

 


 


Right now I'm fussing with the knobs, fixing the nicks and chips in the paint so they look all purdy and just make ya wanna grab and twist em…
hahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen

So a status report…

The Purp-Amp is up and running, and new 71A and 6BQ7 tubes have arrived, which should provide considerable improvements over the development tubes.
It has been 'strapped' into HP-Amp mode since the 'Mode Switch' just didn't work out very well.
But converting it into a Pre-Amp is very easy to do, so the functionality remains, it's just the click of a switch, has been replaced with a bit of fussing with a few wires etc.

And in other news we have been working on the 45 amp and have found a combination of design approaches that work quite well together, which translated means it's performance has now exceeded what prototype #2 delivered.

And we are now working on the wood boxes for the cases for the CBB-26 Pre-Amp and the 45 Amp.
The CBB-26 will use Tennessee Cedar with beautiful red/pink/purple color accents in the grain.
The 45 amp will be Douglas Fir with tight delicate grain.

And the CBB-26 circuit development continues as we try different design approaches, to ensure we reduce the noise floor as much as possible, keep the circuit as simple as possible, yet keep the SQ maximal and the usability flexible for future uses.

I'll post some pictures of the woodwork after we reach a suitable 'look' for a glamor shot or 2 or 3 etc.

JJ


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## johnjen

We currently are working on the 45 amp and have reached a new plateau.

Of course it looks a bit 'rough' around the edges and is not ready for 'prime time', but SQ wise, is revealing new levels of performance, and we're not done yet.

 

And today we added walnut as a 3rd type of wood to use for these cases, and all the wood for the cases is trued and rabbited and ready for the final assembly and finishing.

JJ


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## johnjen

So the cedar base for the CBB-26 Pre-Amp has received it's 1st coat of Tung Oil and is looking good.




 

Which means soon we will be able to start to build the circuit itself.

JJ


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## johnjen

This will be a short update message, and I'll post pictures of the boxes and prototype amps mentioned below, later.

We have applied the final finish coats to the cedar box and the 2 walnut boxes. 

The 45 amp is still undergoing design and layout considerations.
Currently it looks like the 45 amp will be 2 monoblocks using the 2 walnut boxes, instead of a PSU box and an analog box.

And we are looking to build a 'hold over' 4th prototype 45 amp before the 2 monoblocks.

AND we just built another power amp for speakers using 6L6GC or 350C output tubes with a 6GQ7 driver, out of our 'spare parts bin'.
It sounds WAY better than we had anticipated so we'll dial it in and use the 2nd cedar box we just made.

Of course all of these plans are subject to change at a moments notice, as new designs and components are tried and refined.

JJ


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## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> This will be a short update message, and I'll post pictures of the boxes and prototype amps mentioned below, later.
> 
> We have applied the final finish coats to the cedar box and the 2 walnut boxes.
> 
> ...



Its a 6CG7 tube input. A 6GQ7 tube does not exist as far as I know.


----------



## johnjen

D'oh, yeah well, that one…

And we hit another lick on the 6L6GC amp tonight using my HD800-Jmod's even though it's really a speaker amp.

MOAR later

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 10, 2019)

So I'm in the re-build/stabilizing the circuit and its parts for the 6L6 speaker amp, so that it can be housed in a cedar box and look and sound all purdy.

Here is a before and during, set of pictures.
Today I installed the gold colored, panel mount 25w resistors, which just about completes the power supply portion of the re-build.

I have 5.25" of height and that choke stack uses it all with ≈ 1/8" to spare.
Next I have to drill holes and mount the input xfmrs, the xlr connectors, and speaker cable binding posts.
These will all go right in front of the tube sockets, with the grey square input xfmrs mounted on top.

Here is a shot of the amp running and several parts 'hanging out' during the initial prototype phase.



Here is the amp today with the choke stack and the big non-polar located more or less where they will be mounted.
Also the input components are placed where they will fit, but the input xfmrs will mount on top.





And here is a shot of the top.
It's kinda a poor shot but this puppy is heavy and until I get it in its case it is a bit awkward so it only rests in a few positions.



It has 4 tubes, 1) 5AR4 rectifier, 1) 6CG7 dual triode driver tube, and 2) 6L6GC output tubes, running in a direct coupled, choke loaded, LED biased, ultralinear Set configuration, at 375Vdc and 60ma.
It's a What Amp design, and we're using 'parts bin' components and it supposedly makes ≈ 5watts/ch or perhaps more.
And after 'tightening' up the wiring as well as stabilizing the thermal load shedding, which is still in process of being tweaked, this 'new and improved amp' should exceed what I heard previously, on my 800's, not to mention our very efficient horn speakers.
Which also have a tweak just waiting to get installed as does the purp-amp.

But 1st I mean to finish this speaker/headphone amp.
And when the box is ready and when the amp is fitted, I'll post more 'glamor' shots.
This 2nd box looks equally as good as the 1st one we did.

JJ


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## johnjen

So today I spent all day installing the input section and finishing the wiring.

The amp is now ready for a final inspection and test power up.
But I'll do that tomorrow when I'm fresh etc.

In the mean time here are a few more pics of the build.

This is the analog section.


 

Here is a top view
 


Tomorrow I'll see if I can fit the amp to the cedar base and of course take some pics..

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 12, 2019)

It's ALIVE, Alive I tell you…

After checking the circuitry and running a few voltage tests it's up and playing music.




Some of the circuit is running hot besides the tubes themselves, as in there are a couple of voltage drop resistors on the cathode of the 6L6's that are in the 270ºF range.

And today I applied the 2nd coat of shellac to the cedar box, so tomorrow I might get a chance to mate up the base to the top plate for a more finished look.
And right now I've got my 800's wired into this amp and it sounds very nice indeed.

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 23, 2019)

So I have tweaked the 6L6 amp with a few refinements, such as loading the output xfmrs with 8Ω resistors (for use with my 800-Jmods), added an 'on' light, rewired a few of the circuits to help lower the s/n and have continued to fuss with the finish of the box.

The latest glamor shot.


And this, like the CBB-26 pre-amp, started out as parts bin, slap dash, throw the prototype together in a day, project.

But both turned into keepers all in their own right.

JJ


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## johnjen

Well I just finished replacing all of the wire in the analog section that carries the audio signal, with shortened and 'optimally' placed runs of silver wire.

This along with verifying that rectifier tubes are light sensitive, has dropped the s/n down to the -67dB level, which is a new low for the prototype amps we have built.
And I have added an accessory enhancement and continue to work on making the box/base purdy so I can take it to the upcoming Seattle head-fi meet along with the Purp-Amp.

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 23, 2019)

So another update…

The 6L6 amp responded well to the re-wire and the box is almost ready for the final finishing touches.

It now has s/n readings of -67dBv(L) & -66dBv(R) and we are shooting for -80dB or better
Here are 2 shots of the analog wiring.



and



Right now I'm working on tweaks for the Purp-Amp.
I've installed new tubes (a 'matched' pair of RCA Radiotron 71A's from the 1940's  and a single GE 6BQ7 from the 1960's), added all the labeling, made an output impedance matching resistor network, and cleaned up some of the analog circuit wiring.
There is still some more circuitry fussing to do to lower the hum which is currently at -57dBv(R) and -68dBv(L).

And I'm listening to it as I type this and it is starting to blossom as the circuit gets used to playing music.

And most likely it will get re-purposed into it's Pre-Amp mode to drive the 6L6 amp, that is assuming I can dial it in to be quiet and musical so that they match up well together.

I'll take some pictures of it and post them tomorrow.

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 23, 2019)

So while the sun wasn't out here are some 'glamor' shots of the Purp-Amp.

1st the front panel
 

and a top view
 

and a rear view
 

and an overall view
 

Now it's time to fuss with the circuit a bit more to reduce the hum even more.

JJ


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## johnjen

And the sun did come out long enough to snag a few sun lit glamor shots
 

And a rear view
 

And a 'heroic' shot with some blue sky for effect…
 


Yeah the backgrounds are a bit 'rough' but hey it's all about the foreground…
hahahahahahahahaha…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

The Purp-Amp is starting to blossom as we continue to dial in the circuit.

The DHT magic is starting to shine thru and along with the simplicity of the analog circuit, there is a 'directness' to the SQ, along with impressive bass response, and a generous dose of *MitM* (Magic in the Mids).
And I figure these traits will only improve as more of the choke points are addressed and 'cleaned up'.

And I just received the replacement for the power supply input cap, in for the 6L6 amp, which I'm hoping should help clean up it's act even more.

And the local headfi meet is 1 week+ away so there will be a cut off for further circuit mods etc, as the bases need to be finished and other prep work needs to be ready for the meet.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I'm listening to the 6L6 amp now, after replacing the main input cap in the B+ supply.

It didn't seem to make any difference to the s/n #'s, but this amp has taken a decided step up in overall SQ.
Peaks and crescendos aren't as 'pinched', massed strings are heard as many violins playing together instead of as a single mass, etc.

And the Leading Edge Dynamic Impact has taken a 'mutha may I', step up as well.

My heads a bop'n and weave'n as I dance in my chair.
So the circuit is good to go to the meet, all I have to do now is finish the box, at least well enough to show it.

And I have a few last minute tweaks to try with the Purp-Amp as well, so my solder iron is gunna be flinging hot solder around here shortly.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I'm listening to the 6L6 amp now, after replacing the main input cap in the B+ supply.
> 
> It didn't seem to make any difference to the s/n #'s, but this amp has taken a decided step up in overall SQ.
> Peaks and crescendos aren't as 'pinched', massed strings are heard as many violins playing together instead of as a single mass, etc.
> ...



So you won't be setting off the library smoke alarms with solder smoke this time?


----------



## johnjen

No promises!!!!!!!   hahahahahahahahahahaha

Besides sometimes we all need a little bit more excitement in our lives…
er, sumpt'n
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 4, 2019)

I switched back to the Purp-Amp and have rewired portions of the Power Supply with a new ground and other 'enhancements'.
I have switched to using a 6CG7 tube (like in the 6L6 amp) from the original 6BQ7, and stared using my 1930's Radiotronics globe UX-171 pair of 'exactly' matched 71A tubes.
Cleaned all the pins of these 55/80+yr old tubes (which helps with inner detail and spatial cues) and these new non-development tubes are still breaking in…

*SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) is back with a vengence, the extreme bottom end, which is a design goal, is most impressive and not just in the extension but in the 'texture', finesse, tonality, and 'richness' of even the subsonic frequencies.

And there is a sense of solidity and stability (related to the 3 C's, *Cohesion Coherence Coupling*) for the entire soundstage that has set new high water marks.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-3#post_11989064

In short, even thus far, these 2 amps are providing an intriguing and musically satisfying representation on my 800's.

And now I gotta start making/modifying cables for the meet, finish up the boxes, configure a computer, and listen to the amps as they are still breaking in.

To paraphrase Blazzing Saddles,
'Work, Work, Work, hello boys, lets get together later'. 
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So after spending WAY to much time and effort getting a MacBook Air configured as a music player, I got it working well enough for the headfi meet yesterday.

It was slow as molasses since the internal SSD was dead and I was running the entire laptop on a dog slow USB stick.
But it worked well enough…

And now back to more experiments with tweaking and refining the circuits…
1st up, is dialing in the grid stopper circuits, with just the right amount of resistance, based upon listening tests.
This is one of those 'adjustments' to the circuit that often is made based upon what the conventional wisdom dictates rather than how this parameter affects the SQ of the circuits.
And since these resistors are in the direct signal path, the value and 'quality' of these parts are subject to scrutiny.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 10, 2019)

So now the Purp-Amp is running with Grid Stoppers using 330Ω instead of 1KΩ.

This is a step up, or a return to previous SQ traits and suggests I could go even lower, say in the 200Ω range.
But 1st I'm gunna let these settle in and measure the s/n and sub 10Hz rumble.
And, oh yeah, just listen to some killer tunes.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 13, 2019)

So I went a little 'overboard' in that I made several changes all at the same time on the Purp-Amp.

I changed the output Ω of the output xfmrs, added new compensation resistors to match the 32Ω rated impedance, (down from 150Ω), and swapped out the interstage caps to Miflex instead of the Hovland SuperCaps I was using.

It'll take a bit of time for the new caps to 'settle in', but they are opening up even as I type this.
And I have a few more tweaks to add as well.

And after I finish tweaking this amp, I have a few changes to make to the 6L6 amp, namely adding an input volume control.
At the last meet, it became abundantly clear I need to be able to control the gain of this speaker amp, especially when driving HP's.

And I'll get a chance to try out a few new (to me) sets of matched 6L6GC and rectifier tubes as well.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So after making all these changes to the Purp-Amp, the SQ is starting to open up and has reached parity with the previous setup and has continued to 'blossom'.

And while measuring the outputs, one channel measured 0.000mvac which is the resolution of my Fluke 289 meter.
This equates to better than -120dBv s/n.
Now I just have to reduce the other channels s/n of 0.4mvac (≈ -68dBv) to near the same level.

And now that I know what can be achieved, I figure when I get both channels operating at near the same level of 'quietness', the SQ will again take another step up.
And I still have several more tweaks to experiment with, like the Ω value of the grid stoppers, and adding more primary capacitance to the power supply, as well as re-arranging the location of the input xfmrs, and who knows what other tweaks lurk in the wings…

Still, reaching -120dBv s/n is remarkable achievement for a tube amp regardless.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I tried adding another temco cap (100µf), just to see what would happen,
and nut'n honey, as in zip, nada, so it got yanked back out.

I also lowered the Ω of the grid leak resistors (down to 235Ω from 330Ω) and it also didn't help (in fact it made several SQ and operational factors worse) so back to 330Ω it went.
And I might go up the ladder to ≈400Ω or 500Ω just to see what sonic impact this will yield.

AND I'm gunna change the input xfmrs and their location to see what net changes this will bring.
I'm hoping the s/n gap between the 2 channels will close up and lower at the same time, we'll see.

I have also added a new (to me) dac to the stable.
It will be a meet and backup dac, that I already have a tweak (or 3) figured out to play around with.
It’s a Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC with a 2nd set of Telefunken 12AX7 tubes.

We may convert it to run different tubes as the 12AX7 is an OK tube but not exceptional in some regards.

And using a tube for the output stage in a dac opens the door for some interesting filter options.

But 1st I need to listen to it in stock form to get a handle on its sonic signature. 
And I'll use it in my new headphone meet setup, and compare it to my reference desktop setup.
And THEN start tweaking it with caps, fuses, WAQy chips and different tubes.

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 19, 2019)

So I listened to the tube dac, and it was merely ok.
Nothing special to write home about…
And no matter if it was USB straight from my MacBook Air (limited to 44.1/48KB) or using SPDIF (set to 88.2) from my AOIP stack.
Yeah it was a bit better than Meh, but definitely in the mid-fi portion of the audio spectrum.

So I opened up the bottom to peer into the innerds…
And looky there, special 'tweako' 'factory' output caps, and
they were installed 'backwards' wrt each other.

So I guessed which one was in need of reversing it's 'polarity' (of these non-polar caps) and,
VOILA…! (I did have a 50/50 chance of getting it right the 1st time.)
MUCH better, in all sonic characteristics I consider important.

But, as usual, I couldn't just leave well enough alone, no, no…
So I added an old (1st gen) Synergistic Research fuse to the jolida dac, and
again, VOILA…!
only even more so.
I can just hear the choke points falling away…  hahahahahahaha

So I'm on the right path…
And next up is swapping for a set of MONDO-Tweako yellow Hovland caps to replace the 'factory' special caps.
I'm figur'n this should lead to yet another,
VOILA…!

And of course there be tweaks a-plenty just waiting in the wings, and not just for this tube dac, but both of the tube amps as well.

Yep I'm hav'n sum fun now ya betcha!

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 23, 2019)

So I did swap out the 'factory tweako'' caps for a set of Hovland SuperCaps.
It took a day of running the dac before it 'settled in' and started to close the gap to match the SQ of my reference tweako Jggy dac.
Both dacs were being fed from my AOIP stack with SPDIF feeding the Jolida dac and AES feeding my Jggy, which in turn then fed the Purp-Amp…
And then…

The Purp-Amp took a mother may I step up, which in turn opened up that gap even more than it was even before the factory caps got dialed in.

That DHT gudness kicked in and even at this early stage, well, lets just say the Jolida needs more, MUCH moar tweaking.
Those Miflex caps I installed in the Purp-Amp have started to fully settle in and that *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) is back and is still changing, albeit slowly.

I figure it's been ≈ 50-100hrs of run time since they were installed and since then there have been other tweaks added (grounding, grid stoppers etc).
It's to the point where I'm listening to Led Zepplin and I can actually hear all the words and understand them, and this applies to every *'voice'* regardless of what it is, as they are all clearly immediately identifiable.
This is the 1st (well a repeat of the first) time that this degree of Transparency, Articulation, and Instant Recognition has presented itself.
And I've been listening to Led Zep since the 70's on vinyl.

This *MitM* and especially the DHT (directly heated triode) variety, when used in very simple SET circuits, has an added degree of gudness that is just simply stunning.
*SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) is in full force and this degree of tweak checks off on all of the rest of those attributes I deem that constitute what is *'Better'*.

And I'm getting ready, once again, to tear it apart for yet more tweaks…
Will I ever learn to leave well enough alone?  hahahahahahahahahaha…

But I do really need to change the input xfmrs and re-locate them and track down some circuit hiccups, that while they have been reduced in amplitude, really shouldn't be there at all, even if they are at ≈ 0.4mvac (≈ -60dB)

And so it goes.      
JJ


----------



## johnjen

Since I've yet to discuss this particular topic I doubt ANYONE here will be able to guess what this 'device' I made is.

But that won't stop me from entertaining guesses.
At least for a day or so…
hahahahahahahahaha


 

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Since I've yet to discuss this particular topic I doubt ANYONE here will be able to guess what this 'device' I made is.
> 
> But that won't stop me from entertaining guesses.
> At least for a day or so…
> ...



Looks like a waterproof fuse holder for my Jet Ski.


----------



## johnjen

Well, you got 2 out of 3, it is water proof (with LOTS of that marine grade heat shrink with the self-glueing action) and inside the bulbous center is an accessory automotive fuse holder.
But there is a 1Ω resistor inside, all carefully installed and protected.

It's a ground isolator/noise absorber for the comcast cable internet feed into my house.
It will lower it's dirty noise from getting into the ground connection for the rest of electrical service for my house.

This is part of my research into grounding and what can be done to improve it.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Well, you got 2 out of 3, it is water proof (with LOTS of that marine grade heat shrink with the self-glueing action) and inside the bulbous center is an accessory automotive fuse holder.
> But there is a 1Ω resistor inside, all carefully installed and protected.
> 
> It's a ground isolator/noise absorber for the comcast cable internet feed into my house.
> ...



Love that you're digging into that! Many of us have $$$$$ in our systems, then for streaming have crappy feed into cheesy Comcast or (in my case) Frontier devices. Keep us posted!


----------



## johnjen (Sep 29, 2019)

What tipped us off was when we were developing the 45 amp, under some conditions I would start hearing a local talk radio station in the 500KHz frequency band.
We found it on the ground plane, which means it was getting into every piece of gear that was grounded.

This 1Ω trick will hopefully reduce this, and/or alter this 'detector' circuit function enough to limit this anomalous behavior.

For a while there, we were blaming those dastardly alien signals that were beaming in from space, contaminating my audio system…
hahahahahahahahahahaha…

I might also install a separate ground rod for the comcast feed, or perhaps use a separate ground for the entire audio system depending upon what is most effective.

This rabbit hole has LOTS of side paths to explore.

JJ


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## johnjen (Sep 30, 2019)

To date I have just under 150hrs on the Purp-Amp and it's still settling in just a bit.
The SQ is marvelous especially on poorly recorded music, which is a bit of a surprise actually.
All the spatial cues (the acoustic 'space', depth, side to side and in the vertical planes) are surprisingly stable and 'transparent' in that its easy to hear the contributions that the 'space' makes to the performance, no matter if it's a studio or live based recording.

And this purp-amp design wasn't as tightly focused on reaching down to the very bottom end like the 45 amp, but it continues to surprise me with impact and power all the way down.

And where tubes excel in the mids this amp is subtle and nuanced and as usual for a god tube amp, it LIKES to be cranked up.
This is where the *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) can really stand out.

As the MOAR knobs get cranked up, the acoustic presentation tends to be MOAR REAL, MOAR U-R-There-ish.
This trait is common to tube amps that are well heeled that can handle getting cranked on without any facial wincing.
And at 'elevated' volume levels when the music pushes on the edges of the performance envelope, it can become 'painfully' obvious things are running out of steam.
This amp has more there, there, than I will ever need.

But wait!!!
There's more refinement to come as the new input xfmrs and grid leak resistors get dialed in, as they should make significant improvements as well.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 30, 2019)

To date I have just under 150hrs on the Purp-Amp and it's still settling in just a bit.
The SQ is marvelous especially on poorly recorded music, which is a bit of a surprise actually.
All the spatial cues in the acoustic 'space', depth, side to side and in the vertical planes are surprisingly stable and 'transparent' in that it's easy to hear the contributions that the 'space' makes to the performance, no matter if it's a studio or live based recording.

And this purp-amp design wasn't as tightly focused on reaching the bottom end like the 45 amp, but it continues to surprise me with impact and power of the very bottom end.

And where tubes excel in the mids, this amp is subtle and nuanced and as usual for a good tube amp, it LIKES to be cranked up.
This is where the *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) can really stand out.

As the MOAR knobs get cranked up, the acoustic presentation tends to be MOAR REAL, MOAR U-R-There.

This trait is common to tube amps that are well heeled and that can handle getting cranked on, without any facial wincing.
And at 'elevated' volume levels when the music pushes on the edges of the performance envelope, some amps can become 'painfully' obvious, when things are running out of steam.
This amp has more there, there, than I will ever need.

But wait!!!
There's more refinement to come, as the upgraded input xfmrs and grid stoppers get dialed in.

JJ


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## johnjen

So today I added a 100KΩ stereo volume control to the 6L6 amp.
It needed it.
I also swapped the input xfmrs for another set and use the originals in the Purp-Amp.
I'll fire it up tomorrow and fuss with a few other details.

And the Purp-Amp is blossoming and I think I can begin to describe, at least initially, the difference between these Miflex caps and the Hovland supercaps I started with.
The Miflex's are a bit less fluidic, a bit more 'reserved', less attention getting/spectacular.

And they may still need more time to fully blossom as they only have ≈ 170hrs on them.
Still that holographic aspect is only hinted at, at least at this point.

Here is the new volume control.
 

I'll take a few pics with it all lit up and running and post them later.

JJ


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## johnjen (Oct 6, 2019)

An Update…

I have been running the 6L6 amp after I added the volume control and it has helped, partially because I no longer need to use the digital volume control in the Media Center player.
This would seem to support the notion that analog volume controls work better than using a DSP volume control in these tube amps.

And I have tested the 2 sets of matched 6L6 tubes I recently acquired.
The 1st is a set of Triad made in Japan tubes, which while nice, don't quite equal the McIntosh (made by GE) set I was running.

But the 2nd set is set of Westinghouse tubes made in Germany, are simply outstanding.
We suspect they were made by Telefunken and physically they are quite different than any of the 6L6 I have ever seen.
And it became immediately apparent that they delivered added clarity everywhere, with impact of all leading edge sound sources, with power and a sense of immediacy that is simply wonderful.
And in some ways they deliver SQ which is the equal or better of the Purp-Amp, but with a different emphasis and a slightly reduced bandwidth.
This was an unexpected outcome based upon the fact that was meant to be primarily a speaker amp, and as such we didn't expect this degree of delicacy and finesse to be heard on headphones.

And I have installed the 'new' input xfmrs in the Purp-Amp and it needs a bit more time to settle in, but is already delivering an added sense of delicacy to inner details and the soundstage.

I also changed the grid stopper resistors and went from 330Ω to 520Ω just to find out what impact that would make.
And I have since returned to the 330Ω value on the driver tube (6CG7) as the SQ lost a bit of directness and finesse.

I'll take some pics of the 6L6 amp once the finish on the box is ready.

JJ


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## johnjen

Here are a couple of pics of the 6L6 amp with the new volume control pot installed mounted in the cedar base.

 

 

The 'cable' attached to the speaker outputs is a impedance matching 'circuit' so that when I use my 800-Jmods, the load that is reflected back thru the output xfmr to the output tubes is 'idealized'.
This is yields a significant improvement in SQ as it considerably narrows the spread of the 800's change of impedance over the audio bandwidth that the amp 'sees'.
I have also added this 'trick' to the Purp-Amp's output xfmr which yields similar SQ improvements.

And if you are running a tube amp with 4-8-16Ω taps on high impedance HP's, I highly recommend adding this 'circuit', which is nothing more than 2 fixed value resistors (one for each channel) in parallel with your HP's.
The value needed is based upon the Ω of the taps you use, and the impedance of your HP's.
I have a pair of 8.2Ω resistors (as marked) on the 8Ω taps when using my 800-Jmods.

The Purp-Amp uses a different set of resistors to match it's 32Ω output impedance.

JJ


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## johnjen (Oct 10, 2019)

Uh, er, um, it's uh, like this…

The Purp-Amp, it's establishing new levels of SQ and hasn't stopped morphing since I 'fixed' it.

I hit a lick tonight and it's still morphing and settling in, but already whole new layers and levels to the soundstage are emerging.
Each '*voice'*, their acoustic space, and their dimensionality within that space have taken steps up with additional nuances which continue to become apparent the more I listen as the hrs accumulate.

When I installed the new input xfmrs I forgot that they needed to be 'properly' grounded, because I mounted them to the side walls of the wood box and not to the top plate like I had originally planned, 
and now they are wired in properly…

The s/n has improved to -68dB / -120dB (R / L) 0.38mvac / 0.000mvac,
which means there is till a gremlin in the right channel that once it's dealt with should improve things even further.
So now to find the source of 0.38mvac noise in the right channel.

Some might say 'inaudible is inaudible' but I have this nagging hunch that when both channels are equally quiet at say -120dB (0.000mvac) the SQ will again belly up to the bar and push it higher still.

JJ


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## johnjen

Right now I'm testing a new regulator tube in the 6L6 amp and thus far it seems like a winner.

So I tool a couple of pics of the amp running in the dark and semi dark.
So glamor shots in the dark, a new wrinkle…

 

and a little more light
 

This amp is sounding more and more like the Purp-Amp in terms of nuance and inner details but with much more power behind it.

JJ


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## johnjen

So this 6L6 amp slowly continues to become more focused and delicate in it's inner details as the hrs pile on.
And this TAD 5AR4 rectifier tube has also stepped up the amps 'game' as well.

And having this MOAR knob on the front end of this amp is a big help in being able to control it's output, which is considerable when pushed.

I never even approach 12oclock, it's from 9 to 11:30 and that's including using 2 different sources as both SE and bal are being used (No, not at the same time…  hahahahaha), so I'm switching between a 2v or 4v signal strength inputs as well.

And it's all to easy to 'crank on it' and let'r rip.  which can be mighty impressive, as all that seems to happen is MOAR, but not louder.

But with MOAR comes REAL as well.
Yeah it's an affect but it can be quite entertaining regardless.

Drums and other percussion has a degree of punch/impact from the Leading Edge Dynamic Impact, (*LEDI*), which comes from moving air rather than just modulating it, (think trouser flapping, only with HP's).

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

I have never seen 6l6GCs look like that. They look more like a 6l6G or even a KT66


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## johnjen

Yeah these Westinghouse 6L6GC's are different in shape and size from any other I have seen as well.
At first I thought they weren't the right tubes, until I saw their markings.

But, ya know, them pesky Germans, tend to do things just a bit different than most others and these 6L6's are a prime example.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So we've been chasing the mysterious and tenuous gremlins that lurked, unseen inside the Purp-Amp.
And as of tonight they seem tamed and put to bed, perhaps permanently so.

The magic seemed to be related to matching operating points of various kinds and nailing certain amounts of voltage and current in key places.
Like tuning an engine, when all parameters are dialed in, it just purrs right along.

Both channels measure 0.000mvac s/n which equates to -120dB
The rattle and very low freq noise has receded, remarkably so.

The SQ has taken a decided and major step up and needs more settling in time, as per usual.
The DHT Gudness has stepped up it's game and there is definitely much more there, there…

And there are a few more tweaks that are slated to be made, especially if these latest changes yield even greater results than we expected.

It certainly is a welcome 'mutha may I' step up or 2 or 16384740637630.4876  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I've put my tube projects on a brief pause of late.
Poking fingers inside live tube circuits is not for the average DIY'r and ones full attention needs to be focused on all those pesky details.
Like that pointy piece of metal, right there ––>  which has 300+volts of hand tingling excitement should it be nudged even slightly,.
This certainly suggests caution should be observed when there are 'distractions' aplenty, just waiting to 'surprise' you.

And project developments have continued in the background with some rather unique and nifty designs nearly ready to build as prototypes.

And I can feel that itch to start poking around inside the amps innerds, begin to grow.
Kinda like 'damn the torpedo's, power that puppy up and poke away'…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Now I did it…!

I fussed with the circuitry of the Purp-Amp and then added a full dose of secret sauce to the entire amp, all in one Swelled Foop.

And um, it still needs moar time to settle in/out/down/up er sumpt'n.

But this iteration has my head danc'n on my shoulders and me singing along, with full engagement with the lyrics. 
And nuances galore are being served up with penaché as it continues to focus in and reveal that there is more there, there.

Just like I like…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

The secret sauce has been simmering quite nicely for 2 days now and the extreme bottom end (sub 20Hz and up) is comming back, a very good sign.
It's to the point I can feel the drum heads continue to vibrate well after they have been struck.

And the mids have yet to blossom into their peak.
But that usually follows after the extreme bottom end comes into focus and everything tightens up.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Nov 18, 2019)

Progress report on the Purp-Amp.

The mids are not spectacular, nor is the bottom end nor top end.
This, to some, might seem like things have gone sideways and the overall SQ has taken a step backwards.
Sorta M'eh like.

Au Contraire…

In this case, not spectacular, means that nothing is sticking out, shouting "Hey, Look At ME!!!!
And that the SQ is deceptively simple and is seemingly nuth'n to write home about…

Except that the soundstage is VERY reflective of the venue in which it was recorded, regardless of type of venue.
There is a sense of precision to each *'voice',* in 4d space, while being able to hear into the harmonic structure and the playing technique(s) being recorded and played back.
And the more I listen the deeper the degree of depth of inner (and outer) detail becomes.

It *IS* deceptive in that at first listen nuth'n seems note worthy , but then I notice that a particular *'voice'* was different than I remember, and it has more there, there.
Then other 'voices' follow suit so that the overall character of each track reflects, that there *IS* more there, there.

After a while, yet again, I'm back into realizing I'm hearing my music as if anew, again.
Sorta like the niftyness of this SQ sneaks up on me and then smacks me upside my head.

And what with me being a fan of the very bottom end, the improvement and coupling from the sub-sonic to all of the rest of audio bandwidth, is surprising me, as it becomes 'more attached' to every 'voice', regardless of its nature, which is raising the bar, and in most gratifying ways.

Yeah the Purp-Amp is blossoming quite nicely I'd say, and doing so with *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) only needing to be used sparingly.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

The latest changes I made to the Purp-Amp was to start using CBS (Hytron) 6BQ7A tubes.

This has resulted is a significant step up in SQ, especially *I5* (Intelligibility), where lots of those subtle nuanced inner details reside.
In short, again, there is refinement to the entire soundstage and to every *'voice'* therein.

And I also have a set of Brimar tubes from England inbound, so a shootout is slated in the near future.
And since the 6BQ7 tube was originally designed for use in a TV as a VHF amplifier, it never 'caught on' as an audio tube, which is great as the price for these tubes remains 'reasonable', in distinction to crazy stupid expensive.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> The latest changes I made to the Purp-Amp was to start using CBS (Hytron) 6BQ7A tubes.
> 
> This has resulted is a significant step up in SQ, especially *I5* (Intelligibility), where lots of those subtle nuanced inner details reside.
> In short, again, there is refinement to the entire soundstage and to every *'voice'* therein.
> ...



Are you buying from Langrex UK? They have a bazillion tubes and other components, decent pricing.


----------



## johnjen

Nah, ebay.
But I'll look them up and add them to my ever growing collection of sources of tubes etc.

Just because "to much is never enough"…   hahahahahah

Thanks for the suggestion!

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Nah, ebay.
> But I'll look them up and add them to my ever growing collection of sources of tubes etc.
> 
> Just because "to much is never enough"…   hahahahahah
> ...



They have a “store” on eBay in addition to their direct sales.


----------



## johnjen

Ah yes.
I'll keep an eye out for them.

Thanks     JJ


----------



## johnjen

Ok so the Brimar 6BQ7's showed up.
I cleaned the pins on one of them and replaced the Hytron (CBS) tube and turned on the Purp-Amp and let it settle in for ≈ 15 minutes before donning my J-mods.

Um, er, well, it's like this see, um, I wasn't prepared for what happened, not only next but for the rest of the evening of listening…

Wholey BatSchiit them'r some impressive tuubz…

There is MOAR there, there, everywhere.
and that was only after about 5 minutes, 
and then it started to open, expand, focus up and down, top to bottom, which continued for the next 10+ hrs.

In short not only has the amp 'hit a lick', this tube combination has kicked the bar so far up that I can't wait to hear ALL of what it's going to 'bring to the paaarteé' in 1-200hrs.
Every single sonic/acoustical attribute that I have ever described and use to determine *'Better'*, and more, has risen to new heights, as in this is the best SQ not only this amp has ever delivered, but is also *'better' *than I have ever heard, with but one exception, and that was 46 years ago.

The bass has additional refinement, inner detail and 'texture', the mids are standout/in/up glorious, the top end has a degree of refinement and inner detail that is sublime.
But it's the totality that is truly stunning.

The entire soundstage has deepened as it has moved in closer and further back, at the same time, and is much more stable thru time (not just a stable 3d image, but the sonic images, as they progress thru time (4d), is more stable and 'real' as well).

This is one BIG step closer to the goal of achieving a *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) where I'm not just listening to the music, rather I'm immersed within the music as it seemingly surrounds me and I find myself in the middle of the sound field.  
IOW it's not just 'out there', it's also 'in here' where I am.

And if this 'settling in' continues in the same way that previous 'upgrades' have done, with this immediately apparent increase in SQ, then I would suspect there is significantly more to come.

I'm not sure what that means, or what and how it will manifest, but I aim to find out. 

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And thanks to the tuube wizardry of @bcowen I have found 2 more sets of 6BQ7A tuubz to compare to these 'stock' Brimar's.
One set made by Brimar is Cossors which are 'hand picked' (aka Tweako) examples of the Brimars.
And the 2nd set are Mullard's made in 1960 in Great Britain and have the BVA (British Valve Association) logo on them as do the Cossors.

Thus far these 'stock' Brimar's are outstanding examples of these tuubz and the SQ results are stellar by any and all measure.
I keep hearing not only nuances but entire instruments that were 'buried' in the music. 
They can now be heard, focused upon and followed as the song plays, where as before there were hints now and then that they even there.

Case in point is The Who's track *Eminence Front* on their *It's Hard* album.
The bass player has a really nice sound that contributes a nice contrast as the track unfolds.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So I've put my tube projects on a brief pause of late.
> Poking fingers inside live tube circuits is not for the average DIY'r and ones full attention needs to be focused on all those pesky details.
> Like that pointy piece of metal, right there ––>  which has 300+volts of hand tingling excitement should it be nudged even slightly,.
> This certainly suggests caution should be observed when there are 'distractions' aplenty, just waiting to 'surprise' you.
> JJ



LOL!  I learned early-on in my DIY audio life that the best way to discharge a 1500 uF, 450v cap is *NOT* using your body as the resistor to ground....


----------



## johnjen

This is akin the 'Mr Science Show' where he has 'Jimmy' (not his real name) hold 'those' 2 wires, followed closely there after by a staccato vibratory yelp for help.

I just thought I'd throw in a complimentary example of methods to discharge a power supply cap, with similar 'learn by doing' results…
hahahahahahahahahahahaa

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> This is akin the 'Mr Science Show' where he has 'Jimmy' (not his real name) hold 'those' 2 wires, followed closely there after by a staccato vibratory yelp for help.
> 
> I just thought I'd throw in a complimentary example of methods to discharge a power supply cap, with similar 'learn by doing' results…
> hahahahahahahahahahahaa
> ...


Was Jimmy related to Mr. Bill from SNL?


----------



## johnjen

That's a good question, one that should be asked of either of the unwitting 'test' subjects in order to find out…
hahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Tube Amp Designs, 2 Types…

Recently it occurred to me that there are 2 distinctly different approaches to tube gear design.
And while neither is strictly observed, there is a fundamental orientation to the design process itself that is significant.

And really this isn’t limited to just tube based audio gear, but because very few classic SS designs, using all vintage parts, (especially the silicon based parts) are high on the list of ‘projects I want to do’ these days, the tube based gear stands out as a more substantial example.

These 2 approaches begin at the very start of the design process itself.
To wit, does the design intent begin with using parts that are at the ready and already on hand, or are desired to be used, vs. a ‘clean sheet of paper’ approach, where the design is based upon achieving functional and operational goals to solve known circuit ‘deficiencies’.

So in a nut shell, approach…
#1)  select the tube or tube(s) you want to use and design a circuit around them.
&
#2)  design a circuit and then match tubes to properly run that circuit.
And the differences between these 2 approaches would seem to be relatively minor, except that the resultant SQ, will be different.

And to be sure, neither #1 nor #2 will be strictly followed, for instance some tube combinations just aren’t going to work well together, and in some cases won’t work at all…

And manufacturers have additional needs such as tube availability which in many cases precludes option #2 because they need to have a sufficient supply of tubes for their designs…

So approach #1 would be in the majority of the available tube gear, mostly because manufacturers can produce lots of examples of all kinds of tube circuits.
Also #1 is more ‘marketable’ in that the tubes chosen are already well known and are plentiful, so familiarity and acceptance is less of a stumbling block to purchasing ‘new’ tube gear.

Still the advantages of approach #2 is that the design comes first with the tubes being matched to perform as the design dictates.
Instead of the, dialing in the circuit to match up the tube(s) to work with each other approach, design approach #2 aims at optimizing the choice of tubes to function at (or near) their optimal operating points, so the entire circuit (not just the tubes) get dialed in, in order to function ‘properly’ in the 1st place.

Am I splitting hairs here?
Perhaps in some eyes, yes, but the differing results between these 2 design approaches can be quite significant in terms of SQ.
And for some, the very nature of the SQ is the primary and final determination of the desirability of an amp.
And in some cases so much so that some will go to extremes (read $$$$$$$$) in order to achieve SQ that meets their requirements.

And to be sure approach #1 is what most manufacturers employ, and realistically they are limited to those tubes that are either currently being manufactured, or are plentiful enough for production, with a few exceptions of course.

Which means it’s the DIY’rs and home builds where #2 can be found, although certainly not exclusively.
Many DIY’rs have specific tubes they want to use and so build around it (my BIG 45 amp is an example), and so the number of tube based circuits that fall into the #2 category is a rather small percentage of the overall number of available choices that are and have been made in the 1st place.

And it should be noted that approach #2 does require access to specific and customized designs by a ‘real’ designer and in an ongoing basis as the sought after final end results are pursued and do require.

So why bring all of this up in the first place?
Well, this distinction between these 2 approaches is generally unknown, except to designers and those who know not just how to design a tube circuit, but also those who would want to explore diverse kinds of design choices in the first place.

And to add yet another layer to all of this, most designers efforts are aimed at the production of these designs.
These designs are after all meant to be used and enjoyed and so ‘completing’ the design by having a working and fully functional ‘prototype’, ready to be replicated for sale to others, is often the point of spending the time to ‘perfect’ the transformation of a design idea into a fully functional working audio component.

In addition there are some designs and their implementations that have reached near cult status and lots of them are nearly 100 years old.  They can sell for 100’sK$ or more.  These designs use an ever diminishing supply of parts and not just tubes.
These designs were the result of research into all phases of sound reproduction and for all manner of commercial, industrial, and institutional uses.  From recording studios, to sport stadiums, theaters to school PA systems and much much more.

Western Electric, to this day stands far above and far ahead of the vast majority of all current designs, and to the extent  that there companies trying to replicate the original parts and to fully replicate this highly sought after gear.

I raise this because there are those who still, to this very day, continue to attempt to replicate the SQ that was achieved back ‘in the day’, only using todays available parts and components.
And because WE followed path #2 to such a marked degree, to the extent that they created, from scratch, component parts to match their designs, tubes, resistors, inductors, wire, and more.
And today those very same parts can bring eye-watering prices.

And as some know, pursuing SQ that beckons from just ever so slightly beyond our grasp, can be a life long obsession, hobby and avocation, and obviously one worthy of such life long ongoing pursuits.
Even if it gets excessive…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I just got my 2nd batch of 6BQ7A's in and am now running a Cossor variant of a Brimar made tube.
Apparently these Cossors are hand selected/pick of the batch, Brimars.

Thus far the SQ is roughly the same as the Brimars (as you'd expect) but as they accumulate hrs they do seem to be moving in an upwardly mobile direction in terms of SQ.
And the 1st Brimar tube had stabilized it's SQ at ≈ 150hrs +, which had just reset the bar to new heights in overall SQ…

And I have a set of NOS 1960 Mullards made in GB incoming as well, to use as an additional set of tubes for comparison in a 3 way battle for my stairway to heaven winner.
hahahahahahaha

I also have a set of tube dampeners that are being tested as well.
The first set was unimpressive to say the least.
So I have a change of pads inbound to see if they will improve the net results.

I am rather curious to see if in a HP setup, where the acoustic space itself is not being modulated and thus no acoustic energy is impacting the tubes, whether or not they will make any difference.

And now that the SQ of the amp itself has reached 'elevated levels' with increased inner details and nuances adding new levels to the acoustic presentation, it should be all the more telling of any changes that result from using tube dampeners, or not.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jan 2, 2020)

So I fussed with the 71A's bias resistors and changed them to Allen Bradley carbon comp's from the 60's.

Yet another 'mutha may I' step up in SQ.
Smoother and more detailed everywhere along with an increase in *REALNESS* as the acoustic space and all instruments attained even tighter *C3* (Cohesion, Coherence, Coupling).
This somewhat surprised me that a mere resistor change could have such a beneficial change.
And granted these resistors are in a critical portion of the audio path, still it was most insightful.
And I have an even simpler (use just 1 resistor instead of the 3 I'm now using) experiment just waiting for parts to show up.

And my 3 way driver tube shoot out has now expanded to 6 tubes, not counting the development sets of RCA/GE.
Hytron (CBS)
Brimar (NOS BVA)
Cossor (NOS BVA)
Mullard (NOS BVA 1960's)
Phillips (NOS Miniwatt Holland)
Bentley (NOS British?)
(BVA = British Valve Association)

The Mullards, Phillips, and Bentley's have yet to show up, so it will be interesting to see if the current king of the heap (Cossor) is bested…

And this expanded list of tubes is thanks to bcowen for continually feeding my addiction compulsion to experience the ultimate in audio perfection, as in 'damn the torpedoes full speed ahead'.  hahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So yesterday we tried an experiment to see if changing the bias circuitry from led's to a battery bias scheme would improve the SQ of the Purp-Amp, in preparation for our upcoming local Head-Fi meet later in January.
And after implementing this change, the B- being fed to the 6BQ7A driver tube dropped far to low for 'optimal' operation, so this morning I reverted back to the LED bias   circuitry and then measured all the 'critical' voltages to see that they had returned to their previous amounts.

I relate all of this as a means of letting those who think that we only make forward progress with our mods and tweaks, to know there is always a degree of uncertainty in any design and the 'proof' is in the execution and subsequent evaluation (measurements and listening tests) to know of the value and veracity of these experiments.

Sort of a variation of 'learn by doing' and take nothing at face value, while refining and tweaking these designs to reach their highest SQ, as well as optimize the functional aspects of the basic design itself.

This approach to dialing in the circuit yields 2 types of useful info.
#1 What does work and how and in what ways there is an improvement.
#2 What doesn't work and why, which in most cases is more valuable and significant, because by reducing all of the possible options and methods to just those that yield 'useful' results makes the entire design process more 'streamlined'.

And to be sure, the refinement and dialing in of the circuit is a process, not simply a 'build it and your done' affair, by any means.
That is if the goal is to tweak and optimize the SQ as much as possible.
Of course "as much as possible" has certain inherent limitations, such as $$$$+ and even certain practical considerations such as size and lethality, which can all to easily become limiting factors.

I mean when 2 or 3 THOUSAND volts are needed, certain additional safety precautions are necessary (no pets allowed) etc.   hahahahahahaha

But yeah I'm having some fun now, again, still…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And as a compliment to 'the experiment gone bad'…  hahahahahaha

I swapped out the '3 resistors makes the value I wanted', to a single Allen Bradley carbon composition from the 1980's.

This experiment is still settling in so the full impact has yet to be determined, but thus far this simplification has further refined the previous change to using carbon comps, instead of a wirewound resistor in the bias circuit for the output tubes (71A).

The entire soundstage/acoustic space is yet more refined, smoother, more precise and articulate in its 4D presentation.
And the bass as in ALL of the bass has taken a 'mutha may I step up' yet again.

Now these changes aren't as dramatic nor as slap you upside yer head obvious, as the previous resistor change was, but are as welcomed and reveal yet further musical relationships and information, and in delightful ways,
already.

A decidedly good sign.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And the Hits just keep coming…

So tonight we went over several 'layers' of mods in prep for the upcoming head-fi meet later this month, and beyond.
These mods are a series of refinements and alternative circuits which will provide a 'better' electrical environment for the tubes to operate in, in many ways.
And they make the audio circuit itself simpler, but with a bit of added complexity in the PSU.
And tonight we took a step towards the next stage (of 3) mods and in the process we fixed/eliminated the last come (and mostly stay) and go, niggling (as it turns out) power supply issue.

We are back to -120dB s/n (0.000mvac) noise (or lack there of) level, on BOTH channels.
For the longest time I had -120dB on the left channel but only ≈-66dB (0.4xxmvac) on the right, even though at times it would measure as 0.000mvac, it didn't stick around for long.

And in the process we considerably simplified the PSU, and took 2) 100µfd caps out of the circuit, which will be relocated to the analog chassis when stage 2 is implemented.
My initial impression was, we hit yet another home run, and that was after only a few minutes of being on.
I need to give it more time to settle in (as per usual) and this is but the beginning of the break in for this mod.
And there are those new bias resistors that are still settling in as well.

And this whole series of mods, which should improve all aspects of performance, (power output, distortion, dynamics, FR bandwidth, circuit stability, etc.), will get implemented in layers as each mod is then used in the next mod, or is removed entirely.
And wind up with a direct coupled amp with only 2 caps in the audio path, with one in the bias circuit for the output tubes, and the other is the final cap in the power supply feeding the output tubes.
And wind up with an audio circuit with fewer parts (down from 6 to 5 components) in the direct audio path itself.

And tonight is just the 1st step of 3…
Yep, even more fun I tells ya…  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Why yes the fun does indeed continue, even further, still, yet again,

We figured we should 'clean up' the ground circuits and isolate the PSU ground from the analog ground, in terms of any type of 'cross linking'.
The 1st attempt was one of those one step forward and 20,000 steps backwards.

Then we down shifted and punched it…
So To Speak.

What happened was those 2 caps I removed from the PSU (mentioned above) were installed in the analog chassis and wired in.
The immediate result was a complete loss of all the s/n gains we had made, to excess.
I didn't even bother to try and listen to the amp, it was that bad.

Then I substituted 2 other caps (temco's, our favorite), and the s/n and voltage stabilized a whole bunch, not quite as good as before this 'clean up' began, but it still needs to settle in before a final decision is made on what the next steps should be.

And as I listen to the amp now, it is settling in nicely and there are many aspects that are surprising me, yet another good sign…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Yes Indeed we are having yet more fun and excitement, while at the same time further refining the circuit and dialing in the specific wiring configuration that takes full advantage of the simplicity of this circuit.

This time we wanted to dial in the ground circuits and eliminate any 'cross linking' of the psu vs analog stage grounds.

The 1st attempt failed, as in failed so bad I didn't even put on the HP's to even try and listen.
The s/n went sideways AND backwards all at the same time, as did the B+ stability and it's noise level.
Were figur'n it's a bad cap or two since alternative plan #2 (using our old standby temco caps) works rather well.

It still needs more settling in time to be sure, but this is showing all the signs of being on the right path.

More later as this tweak gets fully dialed in.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I reassembled the PSU using the temco caps and wired it so I could use 2 different grounds for the last 2 caps in the voltage feed to the output tubes.
One was the PSU ground and the 2nd was the analog ground.
I measured s/n and voltage stability and the amount of mvac on the dc feeds, using both types of ground.
There wasn't much difference when I first turned the amp on and gave it a chance to run for 10-15 minutes and then switched the grounding scheme.

So I left it in the 'proper' configuration (to the analog ground) to further settle in.
And after another day or 2 I'll measure the same variables again just to see how much things settle down.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 14, 2020)

So a few experiments later…
We're back to the -120/-68dB on the s/n numbers.
This here, and now not here, lack of noise has been vexing us for a while.
And it's back to the original grounding scheme and the SQ is back where I remember it.

But wait there's more…
And when will I learn to leave well enough alone? 
Uh, probably never…  hahahahahahahaha

We're gunna go all in (well at least for mod level #2) and install the 2nd pair of CCS's (Constant Current Sources) to run the 71A output tubes, and in the process pull out chokes, and caps, and resistors, and then let'r rip.
The plan is to find out if this puts all those low frequency gremlins to sleep, once and for all, AND see what happens to the s/n numbers.

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Toobz-'R'-Us.

And the for the upcoming seattle head-fi meet I have a special surprise.
A set of HP's that few know about and even fewer (including me) have ever heard.

They should be arriving later this week and they should match up just about ideally to the Purp-Amp (assuming it has enough poop to sufficiently drive them) and those at the seattle meet should get a rare opportunity to hear a nearly finished but still in development set of SotA HP's.
And they use a driver unlike any other, so this will be Very Interesting.

And comparing them to my Gen-6 800J-mods should prove to be a rather interesting task in and of itself.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> A set of HP's that few know about and even fewer (including me) have ever heard.



Just 1 pair?  Let's see what I can do to fix that.


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## johnjen

The 'package' has arrived, and after the formal 'unboxing' ceremony had been completed replete with offerings to the HP gods and a careful examination of the tid bits of note, (cable, orientation on the head, adjustability, etc.) and using a 4-pin xlr to TRS adapter, they are on my noggin and playing music.

Initial impressions are that they are quite nice and do reach down deep with extension and finesse up top, and the mids are particularly nice.
The factory mentions that no 'burn-in' is required and thus far (≈2hrs of playing time) I haven't heard their SQ signature morph, although my brain may be 'getting used to' this new signature.

Physically they are big and a bit 'clunky', in comparison to the 800-Jmods weight and form factor, but they are not to heavy and don't want to 'fall off my head' if I make sudden moves etc.

I am making a list of 'changes/improvements' I'd like to see and will pass them along to the factory as a 'report from the field'…

More later as I continue to listen.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> The 'package' has arrived, and after the formal 'unboxing' ceremony had been completed replete with offerings to the HP gods and a careful examination of the tid bits of note, (cable, orientation on the head, adjustability, etc.) and using a 4-pin xlr to TRS adapter, they are on my noggin and playing music.
> 
> Initial impressions are that they are quite nice and do reach down deep with extension and finesse up top, and the mids are particularly nice.
> The factory mentions that no 'burn-in' is required and thus far (≈2hrs of playing time) I haven't heard their SQ signature morph, although my brain may be 'getting used to' this new signature.
> ...



So is there a prize for the correct guess?  Eh, no matter...I'm goin' with these. Just hoping you got them in red instead of yellow.


----------



## johnjen (Jan 15, 2020)

hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha
And wouldn't that be a hoot if they were as 'unusual' as those in your picture…   
And they certainly would get the 'novel idea of the year award'   hahahaha…

But no they aren't QUITE that 'out there', but they do remind me of the 'Big Blobbs stuck on our head' form factor (audeze, abyss, immediately come to mind).
But heh, I don't have to look at them when I'm listening to music, so they are 'invisible' to me…   hahahahahaahahaha

And for an added bit of intrigue, you can see thru them, as in I can see my fingers wiggling on the other side of the driver.
Now doesn't that just frost yer cake??????
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> And for an added bit of intrigue, you can see thru them, as in I can see my fingers wiggling on the other side of the driver.
> Now doesn't that just frost yer cake??????
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha
> 
> JJ



I bet they're the most transparent sounding cans you've yet heard?

Ugh....sorry.


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## johnjen

Yeah, and I can see INTO the music as it's recreated this way too!
hahahahahhaha   

JJ


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## johnjen

So the cat is outta da bag.
These mystery HP's are HEDDphones from Germany.
https://www.hedd.audio/en/

And they compare rather favorably to my 800 J-mods but still need more time for my head and their HEDD to get synch'd.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So these HEDD's are smoothing out and settling in rather nicely as they accumulate hrs, and I'm starting to draw conclusions in terms of differences and similarities to my Jmods.
But they need more time and at the same time I'm reminding myself that both HP's need at least 15-20minutes of playing time BEFORE I begin making comparisons.
To that end I am using 2 amps (*The ROK* and the *6L6GC*) at the same time to swap back and forth between amps and HP's in all 4 combinations.
This way they both stay 'warmed up' and I don't have to wait for them to 'open up' and so I can play the same track twice (or more) back to back…

And I still have an upcoming skype call with the HEDD dudes, to get the inside scoop, straight from the manufacturer…
After that call I'll know what steps I can take next.

JJ


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## johnjen (Jan 23, 2020)

So the Purp-Amp is fully modded at stage 3, and is up and running.
It took a while to get it biased properly and still needs a bit more tweaking, but it's 'in the ball park'.
It has ≈15hrs on it thus far and is still morphing a bit as it settles into it's new configuration.

That being, it's now a direct coupled, CCS (Constant Current Source) controlled for all tubes, DHT (Directly Heated Triode) output tube, HP amp.
It only has 5 component parts in the 'direct' audio path (not counting ground return connections) per channel.
2 tubes, 2 xfmrs, 1 stepped (fixed resistor) volume control, as in, there are no caps in the 'direct' audio path.

It is accumulating hrs in preparation for the upcoming headfi meet this Saturday.

And so far it continues to surprise me with a SQ that has powerful deeply extended bass, along with a detailed and delicate top end, but it's the midrange that 'delivers the goods' in terms of the 'Magic in the Mids' *(MitM)* as only tubes can.

Nothing sticks out nor seems to be missing in terms of FR and harmonic richness, indeed these *MitM *acoustic traits are brought to the fore.
And yes it has attained 0.000mvac output (-120dB) s/n for both channels and should stay this way henceforth.

And when I use the HEDDphones on this amp, they respond even more like my 800-Jmods, which tells me they can scale really well.

More later, as things get further dialed in and settle down.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I went back 'under the hood' and re-measured all of the parameters and adjusted the bias settings for the Purp-Amp.
They were fairly far off.
So after re-tweaking them, I'm listening to the amp and it has taken a decided step up.
I'll dive back into it and tweak all of the settings again here in a little bit.
I'll keep doing this until they fully stabilize and settle down on their optimized settings, which might take several iterations if this amp follows a familiar pattern of getting used to a particular set of operating parameters.

I also have a 'surprise' single tube/ch amp that I'm also fussing with, which I'll take to the meet tomorrow as well.
It too needs some fussing just to see what it is fully capable of delivering.
This amp is designated the CAA (Cheap Ass Amp) for a reason, as the total parts cost is ≈$150.

More later.
JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> This amp is designated the CAA (Cheap Ass Amp) for a reason, as the total parts cost is ≈$150.



Hmmm....must be a GE tube.  And if so, you should consider designating it just the AA.   LOL!!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Hmmm....must be a GE tube.  And if so, you should consider designating it just the AA.   LOL!!



Nope. Russian 6E5P tubes strapped in triode. 

Also, GE tubes are great. They aren't super high end, but if I had a budget to build something, I would MUCH rather buy cheap GE tubes and a higher end output transformer or output capacitors than a high end tube and cheap output components.


----------



## johnjen (Jan 28, 2020)

So Purp-Amp and CAAmp update…

I've been checking and adjusting the bias current on the 71A output tubes about once per day and the range of adjustment has narrowed considerably since the 1st initial bias 'event'.
I say event because it took us a bit of time to dial it in and it wasn't all that close, but the subsequent adjustments have been requiring less adjustment and take less and less time to 'finish' (until the next adjustment) and will continue until both channels fully stabilize and match each other, well at least enough so that further adjustments are no longer needed.

SQ wise there are additional subtle cues and nuances along with inner definition and focus everywhere.
Every once in a while I'll hear a whole new '*voice'* or at least that *voice* won't be buried in the background anymore.

An as I mentioned previously The Who's _*Eminence Front*_ on their It's Hard album has a bass line that once heard lends a whole nuther level of texture to that song.
It was all to easily missed as it only plays for short bit in that track.
But once heard and it becomes a point of auditory focus, well it is a marvelous *voice* all unto itself.
And it has opened up and blossomed as these changes further help to reveal nuances in multiple ways, much to my delight.

But wait there's more…
I have a one tube wonder amp here that just got tweaked enough to be worth pursuing in terms of tweaking it any further.
It uses a Russian 6E5P tetrode (strapped in triode for those who understand what that implies and means) using 70v line xfmrs as output xfmrs and jfets for providing a constant current source (CCS).
We were surprised by the results and I aim to push it just a bit to dial in the output impedance to make a better match and perhaps throw some bypass caps at the existing parafeed caps, ya know just because I can…   hahahahaha

It's already good enough to want to make it a meet amp.
And we figure it's got about $150 in parts so it makes no sense in going full tweako on it, but it does perform WAY above what it's parts cost would suggest and small 'cheap' upgrades-R-us so pushing this amp won't sting ANYwhere as bad as our other projects.  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I added yet moar 'secret sauce' to the Purp-Amp, call it v.2.
It's taken a while before the changes have become apparent. 
And I need to make another check and adjust session, just because as well.

So after all that, the SQ has begun to blossom and in unexpected ways.
The very top end of the mids where the much saught after tinkle tinkle lives, has stepped up to the bar and is aligned with the deep bass…
Translated this means even the zizz on top has an impact when it's struck or rung etc.
Like when a cymbal is struck there is the whack and the zizz.
This synchronization extends up from the bass, and now down from the top, meeting in the mids.

And I also just cleaned the tube pins, and that may have had something to do with these results as well.

Either way I'll take whatever I can get…
Like the punch of power that a piano can impart when it gets percussively struck.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Feb 8, 2020)

So I remember when Led Zep II was released and I had the vinyl album and repeatedly played this album.
It was distorted enough so I could only sometimes understand the lyrics and much of the 'added' distortion just obscured everything else.

The Purp-Amp with these latest Secret Sauce additions and circuit refinements have made it so I can clearly hear the distortion as just guitar amp, or mic-preamp overload on the drums etc for exactly what they are and the rest of the soundstage is not buried in the grunge.

And there is yet one more refinement/mod to the circuitry that I'm figur'n should be the icing on the cake, the one where it all goes "CLICK".
That's my story and I'm sticking with it, well, until I find out after the circuit has settled back down whether or not this is da bomb or just a mere pop.
hahahahahahaha.

But this next mod has a deggree of refinement that is elegant and simplifies the operational flow of the amp, which should yield SQ to die 4.

But I am struggling to take my own advice and leave well enough alone, at least for a while and enjoy the music instead of slinging hot solder.
'Cause damn tunes are really captivating right now.

It's *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) time, again.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So I remember when Led Zep II was released and I had the vinyl album and repeatedly played this album.
> It was distorted enough so I could only sometimes understand the lyrics and much of the 'added' distortion just obscured everything else.
> 
> The Purp-Amp with these latest Secret Sauce additions and circuit refinements have made it so I can clearly hear the distortion as just guitar amp, or mic-preamp overload on the drums etc for exactly what they are and the rest of the soundstage is not buried in the grunge.
> ...




Try Led Zeppelin 3 "That's The Way" 

At least 1 song on every album they do is something more than a love song. 

Also try Rush, The Doors, and Pink Floyd. 

Rush will ideally loose the weird overly generic sound signature. 

The vocals with The Doors will become WAY more interesting. 

And Pink Floyd is well.......Pink Floyd. 

Also try some old R&B. That can get REAL interesting REAL quick. A good starting point would be Rubber Band Man.


----------



## johnjen

I'm listening to That's The Way right now and its much like the 2nd album WRT that ability to cleanly an clearly peer into the music.
And I'll add some rush and the doors to boot. 
But right now OVERWERK's anthology to Daft Punk is kick'n with gusto.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I'm listening to That's The Way right now and its much like the 2nd album WRT that ability to cleanly an clearly peer into the music.
> And I'll add some rush and the doors to boot.
> But right now OVERWERK's anthology to Daft Punk is kick'n with gusto.
> 
> JJ



You mean this?  Johnjen, I had no idea...


----------



## johnjen

And I can truthfully say I had no idea either, who knew?
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Old_Snake (Feb 10, 2020)

Hi, I'm planning to remove the cloth mesh on my Sony WH-1000Xm3. I'm not really that familiar with the sound effects of certain materials. How does adding more foam/stuffing in the ear cup cavity do? Will it lower the bass amount? For the mesh, what effect is changing the mesh from thin cloth to either a plastic mesh or stainless mesh? I've already removed the stock foam because it also adds a second layer between my ears and the driver. I prefer it that way.
How does cotton balls or latex foam or standard foam for stuffing the ear cups?


----------



## gefski

Old_Snake said:


> Hi, I'm planning to remove the cloth mesh on my Sony WH-1000Xm3. I'm not really that familiar with the sound effects of certain materials. How does adding more foam/stuffing in the ear cup cavity do? Will it lower the bass amount? For the mesh, what effect is changing the mesh from thin cloth to either a plastic mesh or stainless mesh? I've already removed the stock foam because it also adds a second layer between my ears and the driver. I prefer it that way.
> How does cotton balls or latex foam or standard foam for stuffing the ear cups?



There is no reliable predicting on this. All one can do is try various materials and listen.


----------



## johnjen (Feb 11, 2020)

Old_Snake said:


> Hi, I'm planning to remove the cloth mesh on my Sony WH-1000Xm3. I'm not really that familiar with the sound effects of certain materials. How does adding more foam/stuffing in the ear cup cavity do? Will it lower the bass amount? For the mesh, what effect is changing the mesh from thin cloth to either a plastic mesh or stainless mesh? I've already removed the stock foam because it also adds a second layer between my ears and the driver. I prefer it that way.
> How does cotton balls or latex foam or standard foam for stuffing the ear cups?


Say there, Old Snake…
Not being familiar with those Sony HP's I can't really say what does or does not work and how or why etc.
Not to mention if the SQ changes by any material used will be an improvement, for you, or not.

A case in point is my modding of the HD800.
It took a few years of fussing and trial and 'error' to figure what did work and then to refine the how much and where to place the dampening/resonance control material.

BUT having said that, any dampening will 'tend' to lower those frequencies it is effective for (D'Uh!)
But my general goal was to eliminate as many resonances of the HP structure that holds the drivers.

And dampening is not frequency selective, at least not in a directed way, say at peaks or lowering a specific selective frequency range, kind of way.

So in essence only you can figure out what does or doesn't work for you and your setup.
IOW trial and error will have to be your guide to figuring out what can be done that is beneficial vs mere changes that may not be 'helpful'.

And depending upon how much of a 'project' this could turn into will probably determine how much success you can achieve.
I say this because 're-tuning' an already tuned 'device' usually makes things more complicated before you can nail down what does and doesn't work.

But then that is the nature of DIY, to find out what is and is not possible.
And when coupled with, 'it's the journey, not just the destination', the activity of fussing with the different approaches you can take and then observing the results, yields a greater understanding regardless.

But as a general piece of advice I'd completely ignore any metal mesh material/fabric, just say'n.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Feb 14, 2020)

A Purp-Amp update.
We implemented the stage 3 mod and it was FAR less than expected, so I re-wired it to the stage 2 *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) circuit layout.
Which I'm listening to even as I type this.

One of the unexpected SQ results from these last successful mods is what I would call a slew rate increase.
And for those who may not be familiar the term 'slew rate' it refers to the 'speed' at which the amp can respond to a change in signal amplitude.

The leading edge of every *'voice'* now has an additional sudden attack to it on it's leading edge.
This is a further refinement to *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) where there is a whack at the initial impulse of the note being played.
This also can 'restore' the bit of hard edge that metal horns can have (trumpets saxophones trombones etc) and the concussive aspect to pianos etc.
Even piccolos can have this sudden 'hard' leading edge, not to mention all percussion.

And since this slew rate increase applies to all *'voices'* it's net effect is one of additional realism.
There is less 'smoothing' of those fast details like brush strokes of symbols and snare drums etc. which results in additional nuances with the greater ability to hear into these harmonically 'rich' *'voices'*.

It still needs more hours to fully blossom, but so far the results are continually surprising me as I hear new nuances to everything.
Just like I like.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> A Purp-Amp update.
> We implemented the stage 3 mod and it was FAR less than expected, so I re-wired it to the stage 2 *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) circuit layout.
> Which I'm listening to even as I type this.
> 
> ...



I haven't seen slew rate mentioned in a very long time....in fact it takes me back to college days, so 'very long time' is measured not in years, but centuries. 

Related but off-topic aside: my first college system consisted of a Dual 1218 turntable, a pair of Epicure Model 10's, and a 40wpc Kenwood integrated amp I got on sale at Circuit City for $149.  Thought it was a pretty decent sounding system to my non-audiophile and experience-less ears. Unfortunately there was a stereo shop in my college town, and I was continually drawn there like a moth to a flame. The store owner kept hinting that I "needed" a Harman Kardon 730 receiver (which of course he sold). It was also 40wpc and while being a receiver instead of just an integrated, it was $450 (but he'd knock it down to $425 just for me).  Huh?  _HUH?_  $425 was more than a semester's tuition back before we had cars. Both were 40wpc -- why would I ever spend an _additional_ $250 for something with the same output power? Output power was everything! More power was more better, and everything else was pretty much irrelevant, right? He obviously sensed how the dots were not connecting in my head, so he worked on educating me and the slew rate was one of the first items in class (IIRC, the HK's spec was nearly 3x that of the Kenwood). I was still in the 'so what' mode, but then he offered to let me take the store demo 730 back to the dorm at closing time on Saturday and keep it until he reopened on Tuesday. Long story short(er), I showed up at his store that next Tuesday without the receiver but fully prepared to discuss the terms of my surrender. I'm not suggesting the slew rate was the only spec that made a difference, but it was one that the dealer harped on as being quite meaningful. In direct comparison to the HK, the Kenwood sounded like a portable AM transistor radio. Coming up with the cash to buy the HK meant no beer for at least a month, so you can get an idea of the dramatic improvement the HK brought to the table. And as an aside to the aside, that same HK 730 receiver that's now over 40 years old still works, is still used, and still sounds good driving Eminent Tech LFT-11's in an upstairs computer system. I did, however, replace all the electrolytic caps in it several years ago just to be safe...


----------



## johnjen (Feb 16, 2020)

That series of those HK receivers were 'the hot ticket' back in the day.
I also have one (the 430) in the back room as well and it still functions to this day, as well.
It is powering a set of Fulton 80's (talk about obscure speakers) that were also 'the hot ticket' back then.

Their 'real secret' was the dual power supply which helped the power supply to not 'sag' when the MOAR knob was cranked on.

And yeah slew rate was a thing, until EVERYONE had achieved 'enough' to where it didn't matter anymore, so the marketing dept couldn't use it as a 'feature' anymore.
And really, achieving 'decent' slew rate numbers was fairly easy to do once the design parameters were grasped (the light bulb went 'on').

So it was a bit of a surprise when the effects of an increase in slew rate magically became apparent in my Purp-Amp.
And this happened strangely enough due to a change in the grounding scheme of the amp, and not by a change to the power supply or it's delivery to the active gain stages.
Go figure…

JJ


----------



## gefski

Guess I’ll post here; don’t see a recently active thread for Mac Mini as server, so sliding in here should be fun. Did a mod I’ve been looking at for a while - removal of the internal PS from the mini and installation of two boards from UpTone Audio. One goes where the Mac PS was and provides an external dc jack, the other is a fan controller that changes the speed control from PWM to just smooth dc control. Finished it off with an Acopian 12v Gold Box PS. I’m familiar with Acopian, having used a Gold Box for my 24v unDAES-O (providing Dante Ethernet/AES to Yggy for 2+ years).

After reading UpTone’s instructions and ifixit pics and instructions, I proceeded with a bit of trepidation. I’m fine with mechanical stuff, following directions and keeping track of all parts, but had a couple worries. I have never worked on stuff this tiny, and the ifixit user comments had lots of “...that connector easily pulls out of the logic board, requiring replacement...”.

Anyway, proceeding slowly and keeping track of everything worked very well, no issues, not even a swearing session.

Quickie listening immediately after the change suggested a slightly softer presentation. That might lead one to believe that there is a touch less transparency or a moderate hf roll off. No. Everything is here and then some. Differences between albums and cuts on the same album are expanded. Bass timbre, whether drums or strings, has more touch and feel (Gary Peacock). In fact, bass “real” seems to be the biggest step-up. (no, NOT moar bass!!) Different piano tones don’t just change pitch, but on the same piano, have big personality differences (Gonzalo Rubalcaba). (Bruce Cockburn’s) mid 70’s folk recordings are organic in-room. Hall ambience with searing electric guitar  (Sonny Landreth) is BIG. (Charles Lloyd’s) sax is now woody, a minute later honky .

Even Tidal streaming is vital, alive, “in THE space” (Adelaide Symphony Orchestra - Bryan’s, Skempton, Part) I’m riveted in my seat, not moving at all so as not to disturb any of the “audience” around me. 

One “tell” for me on changes (upgrade, sidegrade, or downgrade) is my interest in just listening to albums afterward, rather than evaluating the change. That’s the case now; in fact I can’t seem to be bothered to move off the affordable new Asgard 3 and HD650 for the last 3 days, rather than something more expensive. 

Looks like this is just one more evolutionary step in my use of Yggy, for 4 plus years. NOT tonality changes in the music, just another pane of glass removed, exposing more of the music that’s been there all along. (Duh, that’s what Mike Moffat says Yggy is for.)


----------



## gefski

Pics


----------



## SupperTime

Where do I buy or make the cheapest custom ear plugs? Just straight solid plugs


----------



## johnjen

I have been using these for years now.
https://www.howardleightshootingspo...ight-disposable-foam-shooting-earplugs-orange
or
https://www.ebay.com/b/Sperian-Industrial-Ear-Plugs/53152/bn_73126144
Cheap, disposable and with the highest NRR rating (33) I have yet seen.
And they work better than the custom molded ear plugs I used to use.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Feb 19, 2020)

gefski said:


> Guess I’ll post here; don’t see a recently active thread for Mac Mini as server, so sliding in here should be fun. Did a mod I’ve been looking at for a while - removal of the internal PS from the mini and installation of two boards from UpTone Audio. One goes where the Mac PS was and provides an external dc jack, the other is a fan controller that changes the speed control from PWM to just smooth dc control. Finished it off with an Acopian 12v Gold Box PS. I’m familiar with Acopian, having used a Gold Box for my 24v unDAES-O (providing Dante Ethernet/AES to Yggy for 2+ years).
> 
> After reading UpTone’s instructions and ifixit pics and instructions, I proceeded with a bit of trepidation. I’m fine with mechanical stuff, following directions and keeping track of all parts, but had a couple worries. I have never worked on stuff this tiny, and the ifixit user comments had lots of “...that connector easily pulls out of the logic board, requiring replacement...”.
> 
> ...


This just confirms my previous findings that substituting any SMPS power supplies for LPS's, results in '*better*' SQ in our playback systems.
And when I want to max out my SQ I turn off ALL of the SMPS's in my vicinity (modem, router, screen, chargers, etc.).

AND
The Purp-Amp is continuing to blossom, and *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) is reaching new heights of SQ along with *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) action, and I have real difficulty taking my 800-Jmods off my head.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> This just confirms my previous findings that substituting any SMPS power supplies for LPS's, results in '*better*' SQ in our playback systems.
> And when I want to max out my SQ I turn off ALL of the SMPS's in my vicinity (modem, router, screen, chargers, etc.).
> 
> AND
> ...



You mean substituting an SMPS *WITH* an LPS is better?  I hope?  Not trying to nitpick, just want to be sure you didn't have sudden hearing loss or OD on Tequila or something.


----------



## johnjen

The picking of nits is a time honored tradition amongst us audiophhools, which does tend to act as a sharpener of said nits.

And yes, where possible replacement of said SMPS's with LPS's is my preferred solution to helping me achieve audio nirvana.
And also be aware that just because the device that is being powered by said SMPS's is not turned on, is insufficient to deter the degradation to our treasured SQ, as in, they must be either unplugged from the AC mains or as in my case, I use a "PowerController" to remote disconnect them entirely from AC power.

SMPS's are bad ju-ju and have become ubiquitous due to their lower cost etc. (microwaves, TV's, computer gear, chargers of all types etc.)

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> SMPS's are bad ju-ju and have become ubiquitous due to their lower cost etc. (microwaves, TV's, computer gear, chargers of all types etc.)
> 
> JJ



Totally agree.  I put together the one below from an AMB Lab design and partial kit (they provide the instructioins and sell the circuit board and a few parts, but the chassis, tranny, and the rest are up to you). All in for less than $200, and I was surprised at the improvement just powering a reclocker. But I think the main benefit wasn't so much in getting better power to the reclocker as it was in getting its' stock SMPS out of the electrical path...


----------



## johnjen (Feb 21, 2020)

Nice build on your LPS, with plenty of extra space for 'upgrades' like adding additional bypass caps for 'faster' PSU response.  
So when the itch to sling hot solder around takes hold…    hahahahahaha

I too have made several LPS's for my AOIP setup and have replaced 5 SMPS's.
And along the way I measured the digital hash that SMPS's create which was substantial.
And after I made the LPS's I measured their noise as well, which is substantially less.

Then the kicker was, I measured the noise at the LPS's when it was running an ethernet to optical converter and found that digital devices contribute a substantial amount of noise that LPS's can't fully suppress.
IOW just running any digital device generates a fair amount of noise and the SMPS adds even more.

So the take away is to use as few digital devices as possible and avoid SMPS's where ever possible.
And the noise that SMPS's (and all digital circuits) create can 'sneak' back into the ac distribution system especially the ground circuits that directly feed into all of our audio gear, which then modulates the entire circuit for all such operating devices.
This is why I shut down the modem, router, screen etc. when I want 'optimal' SQ.

And granted the SQ improvement is not huge but is easily discernible in my system, especially late at night when the entire house is quiet and still.

And if you understand how SMPS's operate (they generate noise right in the middle of the audio band) which is filtered out (meaning dumped into ground), as well as they inject this switching noise back into the hot and neutral ac power lines.

And while some claim that that SMPS's can be designed that don't impact the SQ of the device they power, my take is if I don't create this noise in the 1st place (or create substantially less) then there is less that can 'contaminate' the ac mains supplying power that then feeds the rest of the audio gear.

And that's my story and I'm sticking to it…    hahahahahahahah

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Nice build on your LPS, with plenty of extra space for 'upgrades' like adding additional bypass caps for 'faster' PSU response.
> So when the itch to sling hot solder around takes hold…    hahahahahaha
> 
> I too have made several LPS's for my AOIP setup and have replaced 5 SMPS's.
> ...



Some of us are “on restriction” as to the number of general purpose devices in the home that we are allowed to shut down.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah every once in a while I get caught and have to 're-enable' certain 'services' after a frantic call goes out "Why is the internet not working????"
hahahahahahahahahahahaha…

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

gefski said:


> Changed a SMPS for a linear PSU on a mac mini



Verrrrrrry interesting. 

Im really curious how this made a difference. Any computer power supply needs to provide exceptionally clean voltage to things like the CPU, RAM, and other assorted components. Ideally the voltage coming out of the SMPS that apple gives you should be pretty darn clean and then it should go through a series of on board voltage regulators before it hits different components on your PC. 

If the mac mini was perfectly engineered, I would say that the linear PSU should make no difference what so ever. There should be so much on board filtering, regulating, and general safe guards that you could plug the dirtiest power in the world into it and it shouldn't make a bit of difference. 

The fact that you did hear a difference makes me think the mac mini wasn't perfectly engineered (which doesn't surprise me). The questions then become, where are the deficiencies in the mac mini, and how exactly the the linear PSU fix it. 

If we could figure out what the linear PSU fixed, then there might be a way to circumvent the problem in the mac mini all together and improve things even further.


----------



## gefski

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Verrrrrrry interesting.
> 
> Im really curious how this made a difference. Any computer power supply needs to provide exceptionally clean voltage to things like the CPU, RAM, and other assorted components. Ideally the voltage coming out of the SMPS that apple gives you should be pretty darn clean and then it should go through a series of on board voltage regulators before it hits different components on your PC.
> 
> ...



Here is Uptone’s sales pitch on it. Note that part of their claimed improvement is changing the fan control from PWM to linear. For my system, the improvement is real (believe me I’ve purchased many ”side grades” or worse through the years). Whether the improvement is because of the linear PS, the fan control, just getting the PS out of the computer, or what % combination of these or other factors I have no idea. I agree with you that it seems there are always ways to improve things even further.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


----------



## johnjen

One thing I learned a ways back is that the ground is the ONE common connection to EVERYTHING, as in all voltage regulators, IC chips, analog ground, PSU ground etc. etc, it's ALL tied into ground.
And since it is used as part of the filter to deal with the noise generated any/everywhere, then some of that noise is going to propagate to everything else via this one common connection to EVERYTHING.

And as I mentioned previously, its FAR easier to deal with a 'lack' of noise than it is with additional noise generators, all with their own noise 'signatures'.
And granted this generated noise does diminish as it propagates out from the noise source(s), even so these various sources of noise do interact (harmonically mix) which in turn adds more noise on the entire systems noise floor and in 'unpredictable' ways.

And don't get me started on what we think ground is vs. what it really is, 'cause that's a whole nuther topic, one that most are blissfully unaware of.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

gefski said:


> Here is Uptone’s sales pitch on it. Note that part of their claimed improvement is changing the fan control from PWM to linear. For my system, the improvement is real (believe me I’ve purchased many ”side grades” or worse through the years). Whether the improvement is because of the linear PS, the fan control, just getting the PS out of the computer, or what % combination of these or other factors I have no idea. I agree with you that it seems there are always ways to improve things even further.
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk



If you say it's a real upgrade, then it's a real upgrade. Im not gonna deny anyone's experience without ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE (looking at you sound science). 

The flip side, is that I don't think that the fans have anything to do with this. People report the same kind of improvements that you talk about when using a linear power supply on a raspberry pi which has no fans or attached devices that would radiate high frequency hash. 

I would be MUCH more curious to look at the power going into your storage drive and ram.


----------



## johnjen (Feb 24, 2020)

So the latest mods I've made to the Purp-Amp are replacement 71A cathode bias resistors and new bypass caps.
These are accumulating hours as I type this.

The previous resistors were running WAY to hot (250ºF) and the caps were 'suspect' and were a bit too large in value.
So the new Caddock 25watt TO-220 resistors are running at ≈ 109ºF at the top plate and I've added 0.22µf bypass caps to the new ASC 60µf (instead of 100µf) bypass caps.

It will take a few more days before they settle in enough to figure out what the changes/SQ benefits are to the amp, but there are certainly no downsides, at least  thus far that I can determine.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So tonight *S/S* (Spooky/Scary) has come to the fore in the Purp-Amp.
It is about on par with the other *S/S* examples I've heard before, with perhaps a few new subtle nuances here and there.
But then it's still rather early in the blossoming process.

But that this degree of *S/S* is in evidence so soon, again, is a very good sign.

And plans are afoot to install the newest version of these Rod Coleman DHT filament regulator boards. 

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Mar 6, 2020)

So a statusupdatereport… thing.

I've left the Purp-Amp alone and just listened for over a week now, aside from adjusting the bias into narrower margins of voltage difference, and it has stabilized and blossomed and set new levels of just about every descriptor I use to describe those sonic traits I deem noteworthy and highly valued.

And I did this to see just where on the scale of tweakdom the amp is at the present time, but also because there is a meet this weekend and I wanted the amp to be a wowser, as much as it could be, anyway.

And I may have stumbled upon the 'proper' bias settings for the amp, sorta, finally.
But right now the amp does seem to deliver a satisfying experience, especially when cranked up into the low-mid 90's and higher.
That is when the bass has kick, punch and smack, all rolled into one.

And I can now, barely, hear a SQ shift in the mids when in the 'correct' phase.
It used to be that only the bass gave me much of an audible clue when I was in or out of phase.
But now there is a slight difference in the other percussive 'voices' such as piano, cymbals, drum smacks etc.
It sounds like the difference between blowing a positive pressure wave, vs. sucking a negative relative vacuum, even in horns and even acoustic guitars etc.

This is related to the notion of dual counter rotating identical geometric patterns finally coming back into perfect alignment and thus creating less and less of a Moiré pattern effect.
Think less fuzzy, a more sharply focused and accurately repeated, original pattern (ie. less distortion).

And now to tweak the bias settings, yet again.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> This is related to the notion of dual counter rotating identical geometric patterns finally coming back into perfect alignment and thus creating less and less of a Moiré pattern effect.



Does Google have an English translation for this?


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Does Google have an English translation for this?



Even I have no idea what he is talking about and it's my design : P


----------



## johnjen

I wondered what sort of reaction I would get with my dual counter rotating morié pattern generator analogy.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaaha

I'll write up a more illustrative explanation in a bit.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I wondered what sort of reaction I would get with my dual counter rotating morié pattern generator analogy.
> hahahahahahahahahahahahaaha
> 
> I'll write up a more illustrative explanation in a bit.
> ...


I like pictures.   Words are hard.


----------



## johnjen

I'll meet you half way, with pictures from within your mind, as in a thought experiment where you imagine and choose your own pictures…
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> I'll meet you half way, with pictures from within your mind, as in a thought experiment where you imagine and choose your own pictures…
> hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> JJ



Dang it john, stop speaking latin backwards.  Otherwise I might be forced to find the sacred daggers. 

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!


----------



## johnjen

And now for some REAL Latin… 'cause I'm a Temet Nosce enabler…
hahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So for those who might be wondering about my recent moiré pattern generator post, here is a near 4 year old post that should put it into perspective.

And no Latin was reverserated nor mangled in this entire endeavor.   hahahahahahahahahhahahahaha 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-14#post-12228607

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So for those who might be wondering about my recent moiré pattern generator post, here is a near 4 year old post that should put it into perspective.
> 
> And no Latin was reverserated nor mangled in this entire endeavor.   hahahahahahahahahhahahahaha
> 
> ...



Ahhh, now I get it.  You made no mention of _counter_-rotating discs in the original post, thus my confusion.


----------



## johnjen

Actually if I were to be more precise, it's probably multiple rotating discs all spinning at their own rates and in different directions (a single triode inverts the signal, dont'cha know) and so when the circuit 'clicks' into place, all of the signal (or greater amounts of it) pass thru, with less being molested.

This is also akin to the idea of choke points, where more and more of the original signal (and related support voltages etc.) are 'allowed' thru the circuits, intact, when and were needed.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I've swapped out the 1930-40's Radiotron 171A globe tubes for a secondary pair of bottle 71A RCA/Cunningham tubes.
As a result, all of the voltages that run this set are matched to within ±1volt, where as the older globe Radiotron tubes had a 10-20 volt difference in places.

And in the mean time I have 2 more sets of closely matched 'real' 71A tubes on their way.
A set of Acturus blue globes and a set of RCA Radiotron bottle tubes.
It is an accepted part of buying used tubes, they ARE used and can have a limited life span, based on how used they truly are.

This set needs more time to fully settle in and stabilize.
Even so I'm still hearing new nuances and subtle intonation differences all over the place and on just about every track I play.
*HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving) with a generous dollop of *T3* (Toe Tapping Time) and I feel the need to add another physiological reaction, 'Air Piano' (*AP*) which are all in full view in various combinations at any given moment in time.   

And I altered the grounding scheme on the input portion of the circuit and made it sorta more balanced and simpler at the same time.
I have yet to complete this experiment by undoing this mod and reverting back to the original wiring scheme just to listen to hear if it makes any difference at all.
And because I did this while other aspects of the amp were also changed, it necessitates the follow thru to determine if this circuit mod has any effect, be it gooder, 
or not…

But the SQ bar keeps rising, which while a definite good thing, this also complicates the process of figuring out if this mod is 'better', all by itself.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So I've swapped out the 1930-40's Radiotron 171A globe tubes for a secondary pair of bottle 71A RCA/Cunningham tubes.
> As a result, all of the voltages that run this set are matched to within ±1volt, where as the older globe Radiotron tubes had a 10-20 volt difference in places.
> 
> And in the mean time I have 2 more sets of closely matched 'real' 71A tubes on their way.
> ...



Air piano? That's a totally new concept. Ray Charles-ish maybe?  I mean I'm accomplished and very close to a virtuoso with the air guitar, but can't quite figure out how to do a jump and split with a piano in hand.


----------



## gefski

bcowen said:


> Air piano? That's a totally new concept. Ray Charles-ish maybe?  I mean I'm accomplished and very close to a virtuoso with the air guitar, but can't quite figure out how to do a jump and split with a piano in hand.



Air piano happens all the time at my headphone station, unavoidable with Allen Toussaint!!!!


----------



## bcowen

gefski said:


> Air piano happens all the time at my headphone station, unavoidable with Allen Toussaint!!!!



So air piano is a thing then?  I am sooooo out of touch.  You just can't tell sometimes with @johnjen -- the line gets very blurry between things and un-things.


----------



## johnjen (Mar 17, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Air piano? That's a totally new concept. Ray Charles-ish maybe?  I mean I'm accomplished and very close to a virtuoso with the air guitar, but can't quite figure out how to do a jump and split with a piano in hand.


Ya know it hurts just thinking about that…
hahahahahahahahahahaha

But really I wanted to say AirKeyboard, but AirPiano is shorter and more evocative, and to be sure AK wouldn't hurt so much on the down stroke.
hahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> So air piano is a thing then?  I am sooooo out of touch.  You just can't tell sometimes with @johnjen -- the line gets very blurry between things and un-things.


If you think it looks blurry with what I write here, you should see it from my side…!
And just wait til these drug store readers I use, can no longer un-blurrify, then we're talking some serious blurr…
hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahaa

And with this trifecta of feet, hands and head all dancing to the tunes de jour, will total body involvement (get out of the chair and start Air Dancing) be next?
hahahahahahahahahahaaa

Besides moar fun is ALWAYS *better*, right?  

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Mar 19, 2020)

Ok. now I'm cook'n with the gud stuff.
And it's show and tell time…

My set of Arcturus 71A Blue Tubes showed up today.
And after cleaning/burnishing the pins and treating them with ProGold, I then dropped them into their respective sockets.
Then I dialed in the filament voltskies and adjusted the bias so they were running close to the 'sweet spot', and then dropped the hammer and began listening.

Um, well, it's like this see…
Yeah all that hoopla about Arcturus tubes certainly seems well justified, and this after only 10-15 minutes of playing time.
Tonight should be a night where my feet and head will be danc'n and play'n *AP* in my chair for sure.

These tubes are DEFINITELY keepers, and I can only imagine what SQ will be available in 100 hrs. or so.



The adventure continues.
YEEEEHAAAWWW

JJ


----------



## bcowen (Mar 19, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Ok. now I'm cook'n with the gud stuff.
> And it's show and tell time…
> 
> My set of Arcturus 71A Blue Tubes showed up today.
> ...



Were those expensive? I have a couple long strings of those in the basement with the Christmas decorations. 

Seriously, those are some uber-cool looking tubes. Never had a chance to hear any myself, but they certainly have a reputation for sonics that match their looks.


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> Were those expensive? I gave a couple long strings of those in the basement with the Christmas decorations.
> 
> Seriously, those are some uber-cool looking tubes. Never had a chance to hear any myself, but they certainly have a reputation for sonics that match their looks.


Surprisingly they weren't outrageously expensive, probably because the 71A tube is 'obscure' and not much in demand.
And yes they do sound as good as they look, so it's a win-win all the way around.

And now that I think of it, using them as xmas lights MUST be where the phrase, "String them up" came from…
hahahahahahahahahahahahha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So after several sessions of dialing in the bias settings and checking the rest of the operating parameters, just to keep them all close their optimal operating points, this amp is singing like it never has before.

These BlueTubes are a definite step up from the Radiotron versions.
There is an authority to the *'voices'* now that provides an added degree of *REALNESS* to the acoustic presentation. 
And granted it is still settling in and surprising me with nuances never heard before, again, still.

These Arcturus BlueTubes certainly live up to their reputation and then some.

I'm pleased to say the least.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So after several sessions of dialing in the bias settings and checking the rest of the operating parameters, just to keep them all close their optimal operating points, this amp is singing like it never has before.
> 
> These BlueTubes are a definite step up from the Radiotron versions.
> There is an authority to the *'voices'* now that provides an added degree of *REALNESS* to the acoustic presentation.
> ...



How do you like that Cossor 6BQ7?   Any internal similarity to the Brimars or Mullards you have?  I know Cossor made tubes but had a fairly limited lineup with some types OEM'd for them (most likely by other British manufacturers).


----------



## johnjen

The Cossor is the shitznitz, ie is the pinnacle of the 6BQ7A's I have, and it literally opened up this amp.
The BlueTubes are the perfect icing on this very tastee cake for sure.

Of course if the BlueTubes showed up 1st they could be the shitznitz and the Cossor the icing…
So no matter which came first the chicken or the egg, the taste treat is most wonderful all the way around.

But the Cossors are simply a cut above the Mullards and Bimars, at least in this amp.
I was pleasantly surprised at the differences and that they stood out to the degree that they did.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> The Cossor is the shitznitz, ie is the pinnacle of the 6BQ7A's I have, and it literally opened up this amp.
> The BlueTubes are the perfect icing on this very tastee cake for sure.
> 
> Of course if the BlueTubes showed up 1st they could be the shitznitz and the Cossor the icing…
> ...



I don't have any.  I'm jealous.  I'm gonna go shelter in place and pout.


----------



## johnjen (Mar 24, 2020)

Maybe that could be a new dance craze…

Twist and pout…
hahahahahahahahahaha   

And be sure when you hunker down in place, in your man cave, that you surround your bunker with a TP shield (  ), ya know to fend off the nasties from even having a chance at penetrating into your inner sanctum .

And crank up the tunes, so you can't hear the invading viral hoard munching down on your TP shield (  ), mere feet away…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Maybe that could be a new dance craze…
> 
> Twist and pout…
> hahahahahahahahahaha
> ...



LOL!  I actually got some TP today!  Walked into the grocery store around the corner from work, and a lady was walking out with 2 packages under her arms. Ran over and got two of the last three packages of Angel Soft. Limit 2 per customer, not that *I* would ever hoard of course.  Fortunate timing, as I wouldn't even have bothered to look without seeing her score. Things must be getting better.  Or perhaps from another perspective, exactly what the hell has happened to us when toilet paper is suddenly considered a _score_?


----------



## johnjen (Mar 24, 2020)

I find it fascinating that of ALL of the viral epidemics/pandemics etc. the corona virus is the only one with a meme.
And it's a roll of TP.

And as graphically expressed, this meme seems to be triggering very expressive creativity, like the 2 liter soft drink bottle turned into a gas mask with 2 rolls of haphazrdly placed TP as the filtration medium, among many, many others.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I actually got some TP today!  Walked into the grocery store around the corner from work, and a lady was walking out with 2 packages under her arms. Ran over and got two of the last three packages of Angel Soft. Limit 2 per customer, not that *I* would ever hoard of course.  Fortunate timing, as I wouldn't even have bothered to look without seeing her score. Things must be getting better.  Or perhaps from another perspective, exactly what the hell has happened to us when toilet paper is suddenly considered a _score_?



I have actually started to see more and more paper products back on the shelves. Only small amounts of paper towels and tissues, but its better than nothing. 

But the soup and dry goods isle is still pretty bare unfortunately.


----------



## johnjen

Purp-Amp update.

I've been twiddling the dial and knobs on the bias settings and recording the voltages in 14 places in the circuit.
These include all 3 connections to the 71A triode (Plate, Grid, Cathode) in all combinations, and those same 3 connections to ground, and also the filament voltages, for both channels.

These adjustments 'wander' a bit and so I am using the iterative loop process to dial all of these in to their 'optimal' operating ranges.
Thus far the variance from the previous settings is narrowing down each time I make an adjustment.
IOW the differences between where they 'should be' (where I left them) and where I find them each time I look, is shrinking.

This is a common trait I have been using for many decades now, and on a variety of different both mechanical and electronic equipment I 'play' with.

In effect I keep adjusting the parameters that are meant to be 'dialed in' until they stay where they yield optimal performance with a suitable degree of stability and precision.

I used this very same technique to dial in the valve gap and other variables, on my motorcycles, and after a while (a couple of months) the gap clearance remained the same for 10K's of miles all nice and happy, and tweaked.

Thus far The Purp-Amp has reached a channel to channel balance difference of ≈ 1-4volts on the B+ (350Vdc) as measured in all related high voltage circuits.
And the actual bias voltage is adjusted to within 0.1Vdc (40Vdc is the target window).
The filament voltage (5.0Vdc) difference is within 0.01Vdc.
And since I'm 'pushing' the performance of these 71A's to near their peak operating voltage and current, I expect this process to take some time to fully settle in.

And these BlueTubes are sounding more and more sublime as they continue to settle in.
The *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor) has reached new lows and the kind and amount of inner detail, everywhere continues to set the bar still higher in every category that I use to figure what is *'better'*.

Perhaps the most surprising is in the deep bass where the instruments harmonics and the additional room influence, which adds 'heft' to the power of these 'voices', now has more detail and is more *REAL* than I have ever heard before.

I catch myself every once in a while looking over at the Purp-Amp and commenting to myself 'Do you just do that?', as I shake my head in fascination.
But the amount of 'texture' or 'complexity' of cymbals, and other tinkly top end percussive 'voices' is also surprising me as much, even though its more subtle.

But that *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) has stabilized and the entire soundstage is in 4D (all spatial cues are located in 3d space and remain in place thru time, as the music plays), unless of course they move, as in a live acoustic performance.

There is more impact, and the degree of palpablity has risen as well.
Human voices have moisture on their breath and I can hear as the singer moves their head wrt to the mic.
I can hear the contribution of the pianos sound board separate from the strings.
The list continues…
And crappy music has become listenable, instead of being an irritation.

Yep, these BlueTubes are sounding right nice.
And I still haven't reached ≈100hrs yet…

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Purp-Amp update.
> 
> I've been twiddling the dial and knobs on the bias settings and recording the voltages in 14 places in the circuit.
> These include all 3 connections to the 71A triode (Plate, Grid, Cathode) in all combinations, and those same 3 connections to ground, and also the filament voltages, for both channels.
> ...



Looks like you've achieved enough stabilization at this point to feel comfortable sending it to me to confirm your findings.


----------



## johnjen (Mar 29, 2020)

And of course those ongoing tests and evaluations might take a while I suspect, ya know just to be thorough, and have enough duplication to be Absolutely sure that the final 'report' is accurate and such.   

And this would mean you'd need to send my your amp(s) just so I can reciprocate and ascertain that your amp(s) are a suitable model from which to judge my amp. 
Just to be thorough and all, to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. 
And of course this would also mean an ample supply of tweako tubes would need to be supplied, ya know, just in case…

And upon consideration of the logistics and expenses of all of this, perhaps it would be easier, not to mention cheaper, to just travel (by car because the airlines are non-op at this point in time) and come here to hear the Purp-Amp, in its natural setting, amongst all the wires and tools and transformers and such, ya know for efficiencies sake…
And by that time the BlueTubes should be well settled in, so there is that as a bonus incentive/enticement on top…
And I promise I won't mod it anymore, well unless it makes it even *'Better'* so to speak…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> And of course those ongoing tests and evaluations might take a while I suspect, ya know just to be thorough, and have enough duplication to be Absolutely sure that the final 'report' is accurate and such.
> 
> And this would mean you'd need to send my your amp(s) just so I can reciprocate and ascertain that your amp(s) are a suitable model from which to judge my amp.
> Just to be thorough and all, to dot all the I's and cross all the T's.
> ...



Very logical.  How can I even attempt to argue with that?  Hold on until I update my iPhone...I was trying to determine the driving distance and the stupid thing can't even find Well Grounded.  I hate Apple.


----------



## johnjen

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I figure I'm in the 150hr range of settling in time for the BlueTubes and the SQ shifts seem to have stabilized.

So right now the SQ has become so 'transparent' that nothing sticks out, nor draws attention to itself, unless it's supposed to.
Like when the piano is hammered hard, or a drum gets smacked, or a synth bass attack has a hard front edge, everything just 'stays put' where it's supposed to be and it doesn't move around in 4d, again, unless it's supposed to.

It's one of those aspects of the acoustic presentation that until you experience this form of soundstage stability, it's nature and it's contribution to the music, as it plays, may not be realized for the full value that it contributes.

IOW, the 'layout' of the sources of the acoustic contributions (*'Voices'*) become all the more real because they are more consistent in all ways, (harmonic content, spatial location, which also makes for a very stable position in place, thru time).

It's definitely a subtle contribution, but it's full impact is akin to hearing into the music and not getting 'distracted' by shifts and changes to the acoustic presentation.  Which results in hearing more of the music and less of the artifice of hearing a playback system.

And that's just one sonic characteristic that is a new wrinkle, and there are the others (*C3, S/S, tLFF, Holo,* and a few others…) which are also attaining new heights in my ongoing reach for *'Better'*.

And I'm still dialing in the bias by small amounts as I continue to 'train' the circuit to stay in its sweet spot.

Oh and I've been measuring -120dB (0.000mvac) on both channels for the last 4 measurements after adjusting them back into their sweet spot.

THAT is a 1st and I'm sure is a major contribution to the SQ I'm able to hear.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So I figure I'm in the 150hr range of settling in time for the BlueTubes and the SQ shifts seem to have stabilized.
> 
> So right now the SQ has become so 'transparent' that nothing sticks out, nor draws attention to itself, unless it's supposed to.
> Like when the piano is hammered hard, or a drum gets smacked, or a synth bass attack has a hard front edge, everything just 'stays put' where it's supposed to be and it doesn't move around in 4d, again, unless it's supposed to.
> ...



Subtle perhaps, but once you 'have' it it's definitely not subtle if suddenly you _don't_, at least IMO.  Such is the dilemma with the original Frankentube (a Lansdale-labeled Sylvania 7N7) in the Vali 2. There are other tubes that are better at this or that, but in the Vali nothing else comes remotely close to creating the soundstage this tube does -- width, depth, height, and of significant importance (as you note), the rock-solid and stable imaging placement of every performer or instrument in its own space.  In fact I'll dare say this combo bests the Lyr 3 in this particular aspect. So on the plus side, this is an end-game tube (for me) in the Vali.  On the negative side, I can't roll tubes in it any more because I can't live without the soundstage thing now that I've heard it.  All my fun ruined by a $5 tube.


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> snip
> So on the plus side, this is an end-game tube (for me) in the Vali.  On the negative side, I can't roll tubes in it any more because I can't live without the soundstage thing now that I've heard it.  All my fun ruined by a $5 tube.


So is this the little amp that could?
And it gets SO excited doing it, that it stands up and out too…!
(I figure Ripper2860 would be proud of me…)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So is this the little amp that could?
> And it gets SO excited doing it, that it stands up and out too…!
> (I figure Ripper2860 would be proud of me…)
> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> ...



LOL!  And amazingly enough with this tube it's not at all hard sounding.  

OK I'll quit, or it's certain we'll attract a swarm of @Ripper2860 's...


----------



## johnjen

hahahahahahahaha…
So not to tempt fate TOO much more…   hahahahaha

Would you say this tube is a stand out, and rises above the rest, all on it's own, with but little encouragement?
hahahahahahahahaha

JJ
(it must be the M/C rider in me, what with our innate ability to push the limits of what we can get away with…) 
hahahahahahaha


----------



## Ripper2860

JJ is quickly moving up the list of HF'ers I'd like to have a beer with!!


----------



## johnjen

Would that make me a rising standout?
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> hahahahahahahaha…
> So not to tempt fate TOO much more…   hahahahaha
> 
> Would you say this tube is a stand out, and rises above the rest, all on it's own, with but little encouragement?
> ...



ROFL!  I think at least some of the pleasure it generates is due to being longer than its brothers from the same mother.   And it's given the Vali a more authoritative persona, almost like it's gained a higher level of confidence.


----------



## johnjen

Outstanding!
er, or maybe…
Upstanding amongst its peers!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm afraid JJ's rising up the ranks has met with an early peak and sudden, rather unexpected decline.


----------



## johnjen (Apr 5, 2020)

But during, it was an eye opener for sure, and what with such a meteoric rise and all…
And climaxing in such a memorable moment…
hahahahahahaahahahahaha

JJ    
There are only a few, of so many possible comebacks, that are PG rated…


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> But during, it was an eye opener for sure, and what with such a meteoric rise and all…
> And climaxing in such a memorable moment…
> hahahahahahaahahahahaha
> 
> ...



Certainly nothing to worry about.  @Ripper2860 only understands pictures, preferably cartoons.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Certainly nothing to worry about.  @Ripper2860 only understands pictures, preferably cartoons.



By golly, I think you may be right!!!


----------



## johnjen (Apr 6, 2020)

Ok so curiosity is getting the better of me.

So who's cartoon hand is that,
really?!!!!

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Subtle perhaps, but once you 'have' it it's definitely not subtle if suddenly you _don't_, at least IMO.  Such is the dilemma with the original Frankentube (a Lansdale-labeled Sylvania 7N7) in the Vali 2. There are other tubes that are better at this or that, but in the Vali nothing else comes remotely close to creating the soundstage this tube does -- width, depth, height, and of significant importance (as you note), the rock-solid and stable imaging placement of every performer or instrument in its own space.  In fact I'll dare say this combo bests the Lyr 3 in this particular aspect. So on the plus side, this is an end-game tube (for me) in the Vali.  On the negative side, I can't roll tubes in it any more because I can't live without the soundstage thing now that I've heard it.  All my fun ruined by a $5 tube.



I need to get back to my project vali and keep hacking at it until I find a way to raise the bias current. So much of this amp's potential is locked away behind shoddy design. Even if I could get just 2 more ma out of the tube it would be a huge improvement.


----------



## johnjen

Purp-Amp Update.

The bias and B+ voltages on the output 71A tubes have stabilized enough so that I can match certain parameters to find out which 'settings' are SQ optimized.

Translated that means I can crank the bias voltages to match the input B+ and subsequent voltage across both tubes, and stay within ±2v (B+ 345/346) (voltage across the tubes of 174vdc (L&R)) using the bias settings of 41.0/42.2 vdc.
The converse would be to match the 2 bias voltages and let the B+ voltages swing where they need to be.
Both of these are means of compensating for differences between tubes, no matter how closely matched they might be.

The goal here is determine which approach results in the best SQ, along with stabilizing all circuit operating voltages etc.

JJ


----------



## chrisdrop

Hey there. 

1. This query may be a mismatch for this forum. If so, sorry! I poked around the DIY forum and this seemed a reasonable place to try...
2. My DIY fu is weak compared to you all. Headphone/power/interconnect cables, and that is all.
3. I think the thing I am asking about is a hack, a reasonable hack, but a hack nonetheless.

I have an OTL amplifier. I love it, yet it doesn't have the lowest noise floor. It has 2 headphone jacks; 4-pin XLR and TRS 1/4". Someone with the same amp (accidentally) noticed that putting a pair of cheap Senny headphones into one of the jacks _in addition to_ his listening headphones lowered the noise floor. The added load reduced the noise (even with the volume turned up to compensate). There are headphone attenuation adapters that wire in-line resistors to perform a similar function for IEMs it seems. 

I want to make a sort of dummy load (not sure if that is the right name) to plug in to perform the same function as the extra headphones; I think 2 resistors into a 4-pin CLR connector. I think this will work and it was suggested I just wire in 2x 32ohm resistors into each channel. 

1. Is this at all sane/ reasonable and expected to work.
2. What resistors do I get. I am not sure of how to do which sums to sort it out, nor if any grade/type of resistor really matters for this hack.

Thanks in advance for reading.

Best,
Chris


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

chrisdrop said:


> Hey there.
> 
> 1. This query may be a mismatch for this forum. If so, sorry! I poked around the DIY forum and this seemed a reasonable place to try...
> 2. My DIY fu is weak compared to you all. Headphone/power/interconnect cables, and that is all.
> ...



That is certainly an option. 

Depending on what amp you have, you might also be able to get into the amplifier and disconnect the second headphone jack all together.


----------



## chrisdrop

Tjj226 Angel said:


> That is certainly an option.
> Depending on what amp you have, you might also be able to get into the amplifier and disconnect the second headphone jack all together.



Tx very much for responding and lending your experience. The amp is a Glenn OTL and I am sure I could get inside. It would be a more invasive change and would remove the headphone jack option (i.e.; I'd need to remove either the TRS or the XLR). At least with a hack-adapter as considered, it is just a temporary measure and I I wanted to swap for whatever reason, I could. Of course, what is desoldered could always be re-soldered. I thought I'd perhaps make 2 adapters, 1 for each the TRS and XLR. 

How do I chose the right resistors to use? 

N.B. @Tjj226 Angel It looks like you have been very helpful to L0rdGwyn on his building adventures, which I have been following. I can't quite keep up, but I have had some fun reading diversions


----------



## johnjen

I'd opt for the 2x 32Ω resistors to a dummy plug and use the other for your headphones.
That way surgery is kept to a minimum and maximal adaptability is maintained as well.

It will be a bit tricky to add hi-watt resistors into a TRS connector but a pair of decent carbon film or metal film 2w resistors should be able to fit, one way or another.
The XLR connector has more room and should be easier to make all the way around.

Just solder each resistor from + to ground (TRS) or + to — (XLR) for each channel.


----------



## johnjen (Apr 26, 2020)

And a Purp-Amp update.
I think that this latest tweak is a keeper.

Which has resulted in a variation of the bias setting procedure.
I still twiddle the same trim pot but measure the voltage across the tube (Cathode to Plate) instead of the Plate to Grid, which is a measure of the actual bias voltage.
I have found that ≈170-174 volts across each tube that is matched to ±1vdc (or better) is THE tweako way to dial in this amp.

And after numerous measurements I have found that the rest of the 'key' voltages are not only stable, but all fall in line 'better' when the voltages that the tube itself 'sees' are matched together.

And this is irrespective of that actual bias bias voltages and currents that are running thru the tubes themselves.
Well, as long as I use the 170-174vdc range of voltages from the Cathode to the Plate.


And in other amp news…
I'm performing the final surgery on the 6L6GC amp, using updated bias load resistors and the actual interstage xfmr that is called for in the circuit.
These 2 tweaks should help performance and simplify the wiring at the same time.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

chrisdrop said:


> Tx very much for responding and lending your experience. The amp is a Glenn OTL and I am sure I could get inside. It would be a more invasive change and would remove the headphone jack option (i.e.; I'd need to remove either the TRS or the XLR). At least with a hack-adapter as considered, it is just a temporary measure and I I wanted to swap for whatever reason, I could. Of course, what is desoldered could always be re-soldered. I thought I'd perhaps make 2 adapters, 1 for each the TRS and XLR.
> 
> How do I chose the right resistors to use?
> 
> N.B. @Tjj226 Angel It looks like you have been very helpful to L0rdGwyn on his building adventures, which I have been following. I can't quite keep up, but I have had some fun reading diversions



Im not sure how glenn has his OTL amp setup, so IDK what a proper resistor value would be. I would say that if your friend threw on a pair of sennheiser headphones and it worked reasonably well, I would find resistors that match the impedance of those headphones and use that. 

So for instance if he used 32 ohm headphones, then use 32 ohm resistors. If he used 300 ohm headphones, use 300 ohm resistors. Ect. 

And thank you for the kind words. I have enjoyed helping lordgwyn. This thread right here is the closest thing I have to a build thread, so if you found lord's stuff interesting, I encourage you to look through this thread as well.


----------



## johnjen

So we have big, Big, BIG changes coming in conjunction with some all new amps.

We are working on a 45 HP 'desktop' Amp.
A 26 Pre-Amp with AVC's (AutoformerVolumeControl) on the output.
A ƒ'124 Amp (A Derivative of a Western Electric 124 amp) which is a pentode (6C6/6J7/6SJ7/384A), driving tetrode (6L6GC/350B) output tubes.
A 300B HP/Speaker Amp.
A rebuild of the 6L6GC Speaker/HP Amp.
A DAC.
A set of 4" single driver, full range, high efficiency, nearfield desktop speakers, to be driven by either the 300B Amp, or the ƒ'124 Amp.

And of note is the ƒ'124 Amp, as it is the most complex circuit I have ever seen.
And while I kinda understand it, there are wires going from here to there that defy logic, at least without a 'big picture' understanding of what the design was accomplishing, what with it using pentodes and tetrodes in a way that mutually forced each tube to counter it's SQ 'discrepancies', as if by magic.

It was designed back in the early 40's as a basis for a modularizable commercially applicable amp.  It had at least 7 functional configurations for a variety of end uses.  Everything from a school or factory PA system, to telephone systems, to auditorium and theater end uses.
It will be built as 2 separate mono blocks.

And the 26 Pre-Amp may morph into using 'other' tubes as well, perhaps, maybe, sorta kinda.   hahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Zachik

johnjen said:


> So *we have* big, Big, BIG changes coming in conjunction with some all new amps.


New to this thread....... who is "we"??



johnjen said:


> A set of 4" single driver, full range, high efficiency, nearfield desktop speakers, to be driven by either the 300B Amp, or the ƒ'124 Amp.


Can you provide more info on that?  I have been using ELAC UB5 speakers as my nearfield desktop speakers, but I might consider an upgrade in the near future...


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Zachik said:


> New to this thread....... who is "we"??
> 
> 
> Can you provide more info on that?  I have been using ELAC UB5 speakers as my nearfield desktop speakers, but I might consider an upgrade in the near future...



Sure. I am currently working on some full range desk size transmission line speakers. The catch is that the small drivers won't be efficient.

I do however have larger 8 inch full range drivers that are efficient (92 db) that I am planning on trying out in a smallish ported box.


----------



## Zachik

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Sure. I am currently working on some full range desk size transmission line speakers. The catch is that the small drivers won't be efficient.
> 
> I do however have larger 8 inch full range drivers that are efficient (92 db) that I am planning on trying out in a smallish ported box.


Keep the info coming!!
Please point to an official website or dedicated thread (if they exist)


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Zachik said:


> Keep the info coming!!
> Please point to an official website or dedicated thread (if they exist)



I like your enthusiasm, but right now they are in VERY early development. My guess is it will probably be another month before I have something decent. 

Part of the issue atm is that I need to do a lot of iterations on the box to find the optimal position for the driver and the workshop is closed. Once it opens back up, I can get a move on.


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So we have big, Big, BIG changes coming in conjunction with some all new amps.
> 
> We are working on a 45 HP 'desktop' Amp.
> A 26 Pre-Amp with AVC's (AutoformerVolumeControl) on the output.
> ...



Would you describe the changes as big?  

*"A 300B HP/Speaker Amp."*

So I'll try and get this typed out before I drool all over my keyboard and short out my laptop.  Forget the speakers (I already have a 300B amp for that), but for headphones?  When? Where? How much? Can I have one now?


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Would you describe the changes as big?
> 
> *"A 300B HP/Speaker Amp."*
> 
> So I'll try and get this typed out before I drool all over my keyboard and short out my laptop.  Forget the speakers (I already have a 300B amp for that), but for headphones?  When? Where? How much? Can I have one now?



Well it would be both a speaker and headphone amp. So its not that unreasonable lol : P

But I just like the idea of 300bs more than the 71as at this point. 

The 71a amp was SUPPOSED to be a headphone amp/preamp. The lundhal output transformers in the purple amp have different impedance outputs. One was a 32 ohm output and the other was a 600 ohm output. So the idea was to switch in and out the 6bq7a along with the impedance taps to swap between a headphone amp and a preamp. 

Long story short, the switch we got was made out of super chinesium. It practically crumbled in our hands. 

Combine that with several other issues, and we just decided to make it live its life as a headphone amp. 

The catch is that I am currently re-re-re-re building the 45 amp into its final form which will be a dedicated headphone amp. So in order to give the 71a amp some practicality, bumping the tubes up to 300bs actually makes some amount of sense. 

Plus I like the idea of having a 45 and a 300b amp on hand. Im kind of curious to see which one jj will like more. When I first met him, I think I would have bet money on him going for the detail of the 45. But now I am not sure.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

As I am cleaning up my apartment, I found a couple projects I forgot about. 

One of them is a 4P1L driving a 4P1L. The goal here would be to get the tube's distortion to cancel out in a single ended application like sakuma does with his stuff.

Each tube has a gain of 8 and the final tube could be used with a bias of about 18v. Its one of the few tubes I know of where the same tube can be used as the preamp and power tube without step up transformers or any other fancy tricks.


----------



## johnjen (Apr 28, 2020)

Also keep in mind that these projects will also need to pass our subjective & objective criteria for 'acceptable' SQ before they would be considered as viable, and even then based upon a whole bunch of factors, whether we would make additional versions beyond these prototypes.

And the amps also take additional tweaking time to dial them in, all based upon how high is up…
IOW there are additional levels and layers of 'tweak' that we can apply in determining just how far we can push these designs to see what SQ can be achieved.

Another way to view these research projects is, what can 'we' make that works for us as experienced DIY'rs.
And that means they are not 'hands free', aka don't need to be fussed with when the need arises,
which is what most users expect.

Change a tube, change the trim pot settings - while measuring 100+Vdc, to dial it all back in.
Change a bias cap or output impedance? Experience with a deft hand at slinging hot solder is a must.

'We' are adept at knowing how to avoid touching 300+VDC 'hot spots' while making adjustments, and NOT blowing up the amp, let alone feeling that Bigly Tingley feeling, again, when something 'slips'…

In short these amps are not user friendly for the typical non DIY'r…

However that doesn't mean that these research projects might yield designs that might address these issues.
But those possibilities will take more fussing on our parts and the amps would be different than these prototypes, for sure.

And for those who remember the original 45 amp prototype amp, it had ≈400vdc wires sticking up in the air just waiting for an unsuspecting finger to point at them, and get just a little bit too up close and personal…   ZZZZzzzzpppp        hahahahahahahahaha

We are willing to 'push the envelope' AND live with the consequences…     hahahahahahahahah

Which also means we ARE crazy enough to be willing to risk the possibility of experiencing The Bigly Tingly possibility, at any time…     hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Apr 28, 2020)

The first criteria for the suitability of a 300B amp for dual duty, to me is, can it run quiet enough for HP's.
This isn't as 'critical' for a speaker amp, but reaching a s/n of at least 80dB (or better) is sort of a minimal target for sensitive HP's, like the 800's let alone IEM's

The 6L6GC amp is dual duty as well, and it has a s/n of ≈ 68dB, which is JUST low enough for my 800's.
But it can deliver a 'kick' (is not dynamic range limited) and likes to be pushed with big dynamic peaks, like rock and roll when it gets cook'n. etc.
This noise floor is sufficiently low enough so that when nothing is playing what remains as the noise floor can easily be ignored, and besides, as soon as the music starts up, again, the noise floor becomes a 'non-issue'.
And it is the only amp that is non-fussy, in that there are no trim pots, it's all more or less automatic in terms of not having to (nor even be able to) fuss with the settings.

The added power, if delivered with the 'same' degree of finesse, and not just inner detail, but can couple well to the drivers and 'deliver the goods', adds a whole nuther level of 'realism'.

So to me the 45 has a 'purity' and unencumbered simplicity that can all to easily be lost when more power is called for.
The 71A tube has similar traits to the 45 tube but doesn't have the same degree of acoustic 'richness' nor the power, as it can only deliver about 0.75w/ch.
But where it does go and how well it does deliver when things are cook'n right along. is more than satisfying.
Like right now playing The Battle track from Hans Zimmer's Gladiator album, has Plenty of impact and slam not to mention rumble, against and in my head, when the dynamics shoot for the sky.

And I have not spent any time with a 300B amp of any kind or type so this comparison is devoid of useful experience wrt using the 300B tube in the first place.
But I suspect it may 'deliver the goods' and so be the equal, but different, to the 45 tube amp.
And while there are a few 45's in current production, the availability of new 300B tubes is an attraction unto itself.

And as most tube-0-philes already know, tubes can be both glorious AND fickle, at the same time.
So sometimes reaching the 'sweet spot', requires fussing in order to get it all dialed in.

JJ


----------



## 2359glenn

Tjj226 Angel said:


> As I am cleaning up my apartment, I found a couple projects I forgot about.
> 
> One of them is a 4P1L driving a 4P1L. The goal here would be to get the tube's distortion to cancel out in a single ended application like sakuma does with his stuff.
> 
> Each tube has a gain of 8 and the final tube could be used with a bias of about 18v. Its one of the few tubes I know of where the same tube can be used as the preamp and power tube without step up transformers or any other fancy tricks.



I do that with the EL3N tube use one for the driver and one for the output this way it cancel's out the distortion.
Some say that the EL3N sounds as good as a 45 it is a little mellow and laid back but a fine sounding tube.
And none of the nonsense dealing with the filament of a direct heated triode. I still run the heaters on DC for headphone amps.


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> The first criteria for the suitability of a 300B amp for dual duty, to me is, can it run quiet enough for HP's.
> This isn't as 'critical' for a speaker amp, but reaching a s/n of at least 80dB (or better) is sort of a minimal target for sensitive HP's, like the 800's let alone IEM's
> 
> The 6L6GC amp is dual duty as well, and it has a s/n of ≈ 68dB, which is JUST low enough for my 800's.
> ...



Every headphone amp I've used has a trimpot for background noise and usually mounted right up front.  Some refer to it as a volume control, but whatever you call it, turning it clockwise enough gets rid of background noise.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Every headphone amp I've used has a trimpot for background noise and usually mounted right up front.  Some refer to it as a volume control, but whatever you call it, turning it clockwise enough gets rid of background noise.



?

Weird. It's not a hum pot for the filaments is it?


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> Every headphone amp I've used has a trimpot for background noise and usually mounted right up front.  Some refer to it as a volume control, but whatever you call it, turning it clockwise enough gets rid of background noise.


What does this "background noise" sound like, what frequencies standout, as in single tones, or more of a broadband noise (white noise like)?
And is there one or 2 of these trimpots?
And specifically what amps have you used?

Curious minds and all…
JJ


----------



## gefski

bcowen said:


> Every headphone amp I've used has a trimpot for background noise and usually mounted right up front.  Some refer to it as a volume control, but whatever you call it, turning it clockwise enough gets rid of background noise.


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> What does this "background noise" sound like, what frequencies standout, as in single tones, or more of a broadband noise (white noise like)?
> And is there one or 2 of these trimpots?
> And specifically what amps have you used?
> 
> ...



That's way too many questions. My brain just fried.  

More seriously, I've never had a 300B headphone amp which is probably why I want one.  All my 300B amps have been regular speaker amps. My current main duty speaker amp (Art Audio Jota) uses 300BXLS tubes which are a high current 300B variant (and how the Jota gets to 22 watts/channel single-ended). Only made by Kron and Emission Labs as far as I know, unless someone else has entered that market in the last few years. Don't know how it might do with headphones, but I can stick my ear right up to the tweeter of my Tektons and hear nothing...quiet as a church mouse. That's with the trimpot on the preamp turned all the way counterclockwise, of course.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> That's way too many questions. My brain just fried.
> 
> More seriously, I've never had a 300B headphone amp which is probably why I want one.  All my 300B amps have been regular speaker amps. My current main duty speaker amp (Art Audio Jota) uses 300BXLS tubes which are a high current 300B variant (and how the Jota gets to 22 watts/channel single-ended). Only made by Kron and Emission Labs as far as I know, unless someone else has entered that market in the last few years. Don't know how it might do with headphones, but I can stick my ear right up to the tweeter of my Tektons and hear nothing...quiet as a church mouse. That's with the trimpot on the preamp turned all the way counterclockwise, of course.



Look up speaker amp to headphone amp adapters. You can make a voltage divider with a couple resistors and keep your headphones nice and safe on a high power amp like that.


----------



## johnjen

hahahahahahahahahahaha
So what 300B headphone amps have you used?

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> hahahahahahahahahahaha
> So what 300B headphone amps have you used?
> 
> JJ



The same number I mentioned above.  Zero.    However, if you want to build me one I'd be most pleased to lose my virginity. LOL!


----------



## johnjen

Ah I see, you're volunteering to be a test dummy, ya know for the cause and all…
hahahahahahahahahaha.

Well there are a few 'Technical' details to work out 1st, ya know like getting the prototype working and dialed in…

So just keep holding your breath (don't worry about the blue color nor the convulsions and all, they're only temporary…) and YOU could be the 2nd to know you've been selected from the teaming hordes, to audition a true one of a kind 300B HP Amp, in the privacy of your own home no less…
Think of the prestige, 
the bragging rights, 
the opportunity of a life time, 
the expense…  
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha aa aaa…
     

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Ah I see, you're volunteering to be a test dummy, ya know for the cause and all…
> hahahahahahahahahaha.
> 
> Well there are a few 'Technical' details to work out 1st, ya know like getting the prototype working and dialed in…
> ...



Cool!  I just started holding my breath. Test dummies don't technically need to breathe, so I'm good.  

I'm in possession of high current 300B's as well as regular 300B's (well, assuming '57 Western Electrics are regular, LOL).  Name a (typical) driver tube and I probably have it. So just think how much less money is involved if you don't have to send tubes too!  See?  My generosity knows no bounds.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Cool! I just started holding my breath. Test dummies don't technically need to breathe, so I'm good.


Bill, since the only side effect of holding your breath is brain damage due to oxygen deprivation - you're safe!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Bill, since the only side effect of holding your breath is brain damage due to oxygen deprivation - you're safe!



Your concern for my safety tugs at my heartstrings and brings a tear to my eye.  Or are those typical pre-death symptoms?


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> The same number I mentioned above.  Zero.    However, if you want to build me one I'd be most pleased to lose my virginity. LOL!





bcowen said:


> Cool!  I just started holding my breath. Test dummies don't technically need to breathe, so I'm good.
> 
> I'm in possession of high current 300B's as well as regular 300B's (well, assuming '57 Western Electrics are regular, LOL).  Name a (typical) driver tube and I probably have it. So just think how much less money is involved if you don't have to send tubes too!  See?  My generosity knows no bounds.



You could also just jump in the queue and we can make you a custom one. Heck if you wanted to pay for a proper CNC hour to make the chassis, and I didn't have to experiment with some odd ball circuit my OCD wants to try, you could probably have one before JJ has his. 

Have I mentioned I hate chassis work? Because I really hate chassis work : P


----------



## johnjen (May 5, 2020)

So Purp-Amp update,
& NOW with an added Tweaker Report.   

The Purp-Amp has reached a SQ peak that is kinda hard to pin point in that there doesn't seem to be any sonic or acoustic aspect that draws attention to itself, unless the instrument/*'voice'* calls for it.
IOW it just delivers what there is to my ears without fanfare, nor any spectacular WOW moments, as such nothing 'sticks out'.
Well, upon occasion I just look over at the amp and say to myself "Did you just do that?" and shake my head in semi-disbelief.

The voltage tweaking seems to have settled down and is staying within 'tolerance', now that I use this refined method of setting the operating voltages etc.
All of the various descriptors I use have again been elevated to new heights, which in turn yields new insights and the ability to hear INTO the music with increasing focused appreciation of what was there all along but is now in 'in my face'.


And this portion of the Tweaker Report is one of those Love to Hate / Hate to Love situations.
I wanted this experiment to fail and it almost did, well not really, I just had to give it enough burn in time before it blossomed, like it's doing even as I type this.

And if you've been in the audiophool pool long enough you know that there are some 'accessories' you'd just as soon hope didn't make things 'better', ie would sink rather than swim.
But when they do and I realize there actually is undeniable niftyness to this do-dad gegaw,
then, Then, I find myself impaled upon the horns of a dilemma.
And thus the "Love to Hate / Hate to Love" point of indecision is thrust into my 'must reconcile' to do list.

So what is it this time? I can hear the peanut gallery mutter, and immediately regret that they asked the question…    

My ac power delivery setup includes a torroidal isolation xfmr which then feeds my voltage step down xfmr, which in turn then feeds the gear.
And I swapped out a cardas duplex receptacle with the new kid on the block the Synergistic Research 'Orange' duplex receptacle at the very tail end of this chain, so that the JggyB and Purp-Amp are being powered by this, this…

This (it wounds me to write this) $250 duplex receptacle.
It was bad enough that they are charging $160 for a fuse (which I still haven't 'bought' into) but this is an outrageous price for a 'standard' hospital grade receptacle that has been 'conditioned' by a tesla coil with a bit of 'special goo' painted on only 2 of the wire crimp screws.

Except it does sound 'better' than the cardas unit and it continues to blossom with only ≈ 50-60hrs.on it thus far.
Horns of dilemma indeed.

So should I throw caution to the winds and soldier on, take one for the team, and see just how far this experiment can be pushed by replacing ALL of the inline duplex receptacles with these grossly over priced Orange monstrosities?
Or opt for just this one, or even more extreme, yank it back out and pretend I never heard what I'm hearing right now?
ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH
Horns of dilemma indeed.

This is where the "Love to Hate / Hate to Love" enters the picture and sticks out it's tongue and flibbity-flibbits in my face…
I mean what AM I supposed to do?   

So I guess I'll sit back and cogitate the meaning of the Audiophool universe and it's tendency to taunt and toy with me, yet again.
Oh the Horror…      
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So Purp-Amp update,
> & NOW with an added Tweaker Report.
> 
> The Purp-Amp has reached a SQ peak that is kinda hard to pin point in that there doesn't seem to be any sonic or acoustic aspect that draws attention to itself, unless the instrument/*'voice'* calls for it.
> ...




Meh. I will just build my own power source with as close to 0 impedance as humanly possible and call that a day. 

Actually..........................What is the output impedance of a class D amplifier I wonder.


----------



## johnjen

Why stop there?
Make one with a negative impedance and win the nobel prize!
hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

I have to draw the line at the Furutech GTX-D.    We best not start on fuses or men in little white coats will be knocking at the door. LOL!


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I have to draw the line at the Furutech GTX-D.    We best not start on fuses or men in little white coats will be knocking at the door. LOL!


What a bargain!!
Bill - do I need to upgrade just the AC receptacle my audio equipment is plugged into, or the entire house?  
BTW, I live in a condo - so maybe upgrade my neighbors as well, to avoid them introduce noise into the mains?!


----------



## flailure

bcowen said:


> I have to draw the line at the Furutech GTX-D.    We best not start on fuses or men in little white coats will be knocking at the door. LOL!



That is truly ridiculous, if people are going to invest in those, why stop there, power companies should invest in special gold audiophile transformers to step down the 14000volts to 230v, so they can upcharge to for your whole house, and I wonder how many of those tiny audiophile spaghetti wires would need to be twined together to replace the main 200amp service wires feeding your house, and let's not forget the breakers, special gold contacts on those for sure.  And let us not forget the main ground wire needs to be some hybrid metal, palladium and enriched uranium and maybe a hint of moon rock dust to enhance the bass...

Yeah, I agree I will definitely set my line before that, maybe even a few steps back just to be sure, but it was good for a chuckle, even if I did shake my head at the thought someone must be buying these...


----------



## johnjen (May 6, 2020)

flailure said:


> That is truly ridiculous, if people are going to invest in those, why stop there, power companies should invest in special gold audiophile transformers to step down the 14000volts to 230v, so they can upcharge to for your whole house, and I wonder how many of those tiny audiophile spaghetti wires would need to be twined together to replace the main 200amp service wires feeding your house, and let's not forget the breakers, special gold contacts on those for sure.  And let us not forget the main ground wire needs to be some hybrid metal, palladium and enriched uranium and maybe a hint of moon rock dust to enhance the bass...
> 
> Yeah, I agree I will definitely set my line before that, maybe even a few steps back just to be sure, but it was good for a chuckle, even if I did shake my head at the thought someone must be buying these...


I would guess that you hadn't read my posts about the delivery of ac power I have achieved just by improvements made to the one dedicated branch circuit that feeds my audio system.
I was able to deliver up to 2Ka out of a 20amp breaker by the improvements I made using better receptacles and a box of 12g romex from my local hardware store.

This entire series of interrelated posts starts with diving into ASCC (Available Short Circuit Current) which is an electricians test for the 'health' of a branch circuit.
This is the 1st post of this series.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-43#post-12738982
And the last post.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-45#post-12794986

Which in turn is followed up by this series on fuses and how they all tie together.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-46#post-12835717

And when coupled with the testing I did on the time window that current actually flows into a headphone amp, it can provide some insight into why these aftermarket 'accessories' can and do make a difference.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-92#post-14746426

This series of investigations show that just by tweaking the ac power that supplies the power for our audio gear, along with using *'better'* fuses, cables, receptacles, etc, they can provide a beneficial improvement in how our gear operates.
There are additional factors which also affect all of this and can limit how much improvement can be achieved in any given system, but going into all of that would make this post MUCH longer.

So if you are curious enough to investigate, there is some food for thought in these posts.

Also for reference the 1st post of this thread lists all of the topics covered in this ongoing thread.

JJ


----------



## flailure

Lol, nope I'm out, not going down this road.  Enjoy your cleaner sound.  Have a nice day.







Psst (anyone else reading this, nod your head and move along, don't buy the gold plated outlet, little observation to point out, I don't see any gold plating on the screws on that 140 dollar outlet, semi-conceding: though they could be on the anvil, but to point out, how do you attach the wires on the backside of that outlet to maintain the supposed integrity of ac power (which apparently must be very fragile) for it to necessitate a 20 amp service for a micro wattage headphone amp (yes i know micro is the wrong word but it sounds cooler than milli or centi, and we are definitely veering into subjectivisms and away from science right now, so cooler is allowable).  It might make sense if we switched out incoming power to dc voltage residential and nobody bothered to let me know about the swap.  Heck, why stop there, like I was saying, if ac is really that fragile, run a wire, doc brown style (back to the future), straight from the 14000 volt power wires to your headphone room bypassing transformer and breaker box, and go straight into a gold/platinum hybrid step down transformer (semi practical, it will keep your room warm year round, and if you use it for a table for your headphone amp it will keep your headphone amp warmed up and ready to go)  and output straight into your amp, no fuse required, just to make sure that delicate power doesn't flutter in any sort of audible way (by the way, fuses and breakers work much differently, and while I won't get into specifics here, breakers have a solid point to point connection that is not restrictive in any way at reasonable loads, and absolutely required for your homes protection, so don't ever bypass them please, they don't effect ac voltage at all).  Leave out the flux capacitor, it does funky things to your power unless you live in a DeLorean.


Ps, if you do have audible distortion at your amplifier (typically a humming) you may have some ground loop issues, they don't come downstream from the breaker box usually (unless the electrician screwed up, its been known to happen, and that is a case where something is installed incorrectly, not that it needs upgrading), mostly they are caused by issues that go upstream (check your loads, grounds, isolation).


----------



## johnjen

flailure said:


> Lol, nope I'm out, not going down this road.  Enjoy your cleaner sound.  Have a nice day.
> snip


For someone who isn't "going down this road" with a seemingly fixed and certain understanding of the way of things you certainly like to share your opinions.
Which reminds me of this quote from Rev. William H. Poole 1879…
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

So be it, perhaps others will have enough curiosity to consider what the tests and collected data show.
I know what I've found and what gains it has resulted in and that is why I wrote it all up and offered it for others to consider, or not, as it changes none of the gains to my system.

Lastly this quote, could provide additional insight.
'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.' – Aristotle

JJ


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> What a bargain!!
> Bill - do I need to upgrade just the AC receptacle my audio equipment is plugged into, or the entire house?
> BTW, I live in a condo - so maybe upgrade my neighbors as well, to avoid them introduce noise into the mains?!



For best effect, you need to upgrade every outlet that's connected to *all* the wiring emanating from the electrical substation serving your abode.  Depending on the size of the substation, that may require 20k - 50k outlets, but if you're a true audiophile the cost is totally irrelevant.  

More seriously, I hear a difference with the Furutech. Huge? Nope. There? Yes. Would I buy another?  Probably not, as the improvement wasn't commensurate with the cost....for me. Might be different for someone else. Quite honestly I got a *bigger* improvement by replacing all the crap contractor-grade outlets in the branch circuit that feeds my audio gear with some good quality Cooper outlets that have screw-in clamps for the Romex. IIRC, those were around $5 each.  The crap contractor outlets were connected by stripping the Romex and sticking the bare wire in the little spring clamp hole in the back. Most every hot and neutral wire was loose enough to wiggle around, and at 15 years old I can only imagine the oxidation that occurred in a non-gas tight connection. If your condo is less than 25 years old, I can almost guarantee you have similar crap outlets connected in the exact same crap way (which I find amazing it's even allowed by any building code). I don't know if it was the loose and vibrating wire (flowing electricity creates resonance) or the oxidation that was responsible, but getting every outlet in a tightly wired, non-oxidized state made a very significant improvement.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> For best effect, you need to upgrade every outlet that's connected to *all* the wiring emanating from the electrical substation serving your abode.  Depending on the size of the substation, that may require 20k - 50k outlets, but if you're a true audiophile the cost is totally irrelevant.
> 
> More seriously, I hear a difference with the Furutech. Huge? Nope. There? Yes. Would I buy another?  Probably not, as the improvement wasn't commensurate with the cost....for me. Might be different for someone else. Quite honestly I got a *bigger* improvement by replacing all the crap contractor-grade outlets in the branch circuit that feeds my audio gear with some good quality Cooper outlets that have screw-in clamps for the Romex. IIRC, those were around $5 each.  The crap contractor outlets were connected by stripping the Romex and sticking the bare wire in the little spring clamp hole in the back. Most every hot and neutral wire was loose enough to wiggle around, and at 15 years old I can only imagine the oxidation that occurred in a non-gas tight connection. If your condo is less than 25 years old, I can almost guarantee you have similar crap outlets connected in the exact same crap way (which I find amazing it's even allowed by any building code). I don't know if it was the loose and vibrating wire (flowing electricity creates resonance) or the oxidation that was responsible, but getting every outlet in a tightly wired, non-oxidized state made a very significant improvement.



Yeup. I did this to our old house and it made a big improvement. Now I live in an apartment and can't touch anything. This is part of why I am looking at power regeneration as an option.


----------



## chrisdrop

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Now I live in an apartment and can't touch anything. This is part of why I am looking at power regeneration as an option.


FWIW - In steps, I upgraded bits of my power chain. Upgrading from consumer-unit/fuse-box (reasonable cable/sockets/etc), adding additional ground/earth direct from consumer-unit/fuse-box, and adding regenerator. IMO the regenerator had a similar effect to the upgrading the entire mains power chain to the socket, but the added benefit of voltage regulation, which helped me more than it might others, I had an issue with very variable voltage; (uk/city/home from 1800s/etc). I think you can get a very similar benefit to upgrading the mains power chain by using a regenerator. Both is slightly better, but you can't return an electrical mains upgrade, so I kept both . So, short story; recommend regenerator, especially if you can't upgrade the mains chain. FWIW - I didn't have _any_ improvement with a load of other 'devices', but regenerator and mains power chain certainly offered solid benefit.


----------



## johnjen (May 7, 2020)

I went so far as to solder the leads at the one break in the dedicated branch circuit for my audio system feed.
I was shocked  at the difference it made and especially when I soldered the ground wire by itself.

Most homes have 'contractor grade' duplex receptacles (think 49¢ each) installed, which as you might guess is "cheap" no matter how you cut it.
And they wear out all to easily, and who EVER thinks of replacing them, because most don't know how etc.

Not to mention making sure ALL the circuit breaker clamp screws that squeeze the wires are tight and have not over heated…

These are 2 easy to address ways to 'clean up' the distribution of the branch circuits, not to mention performing an ASCC test using a dedicated testing tool or a volt meter and and HD hand drill to measure the voltage sag for each branch circuit.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Not to mention making sure ALL the circuit breaker clamp screws that squeeze the wires are tight and have not over heated.
> 
> JJ



Glad you brought this up. I borrowed a FLIR (thermal imaging) camera from work one weekend. We use this to routinely scan breaker panels in the plant for hot spots that would indicate a loose, oxidized or carbonized contact.  The first shot I took of my home panel looked pretty good.  Then I started turning stuff on. The breaker that feeds 220v to my clothes dryer went bright yellow (in the thermal image) within a minute of starting the dryer.  Not good.  The breaker feeding the audio system went a little orange...not as bad but still not good. Most of the other breakers were OK.  I have no issues changing outlets on my own, but messing inside an electrical panel is well above my pay grade. Fortunately I have a friend that's a licensed electrician, and he got everything put back in order for the price of a few beers.  . The breakers were all fine -- the heat was due to loose screws.


----------



## Speedskater

johnjen said:


> Why stop there?
> Make one with a negative impedance and win the nobel prize!
> hahahahahahahahahaha
> JJ


No, actually it's easy to do. A DIY amplifier article showed how to do it. But didn't recommended it (as I recall).
Note that a SMPS has a negative input impedance. If the line voltage drops, it just draws more current so that the output power remains the same.


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> I went so far as to solder the leads at the one break in the dedicated branch circuit for my audio system feed.
> I was shocked  at the difference it made and especially when I soldered the ground wire by itself.
> 
> Most homes have 'contractor grade' duplex receptacles (think 49¢ each) installed, which as you might guess is "cheap" no matter how you cut it.
> ...



Also, duplex receptacles should be contact cleaned (TURN OFF) like we do our interconnects, etc. Cotton pipe cleaners fit nicely. After dry polishing, any traces of cotton can be sucked out with a vacuum cleaner hose.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> ...the heat was due to loose screws.


Bill, you're too hard on yourself


----------



## chrisdrop

johnjen said:


> Just solder each resistor from + to ground (TRS) or + to — (XLR) for each channel.


Thanks again for this. I have done _w/ XLR _and it works a treat. 

Regarding the _TRS_, I think I may have misunderstood - so just checking:

A) 2 resistors, each L>Ground and R>Ground. 
B) 1 resistor, just L(I think+)> Ground. 

I wired A (2 resistors) and the multi-meter shows the 100% cross-connection, so I came back to check this note... So I think I did A and you meant B? How dangerous is a little knowledge in the wrong hands ...?? 

Tx again for indulging!


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Also, duplex receptacles should be contact cleaned (TURN OFF) like we do our interconnects, etc. Cotton pipe cleaners fit nicely. After dry polishing, any traces of cotton can be sucked out with a vacuum cleaner hose.


Ah yes, another one us who will go to any length to push the edges of the envelope and make sure those pesky teeny tiny hairs won't contaminate our addiction for tweako tunes…
hahahahahahahahahahahhaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

chrisdrop said:


> Thanks again for this. I have done _w/ XLR _and it works a treat.
> 
> Regarding the _TRS_, I think I may have misunderstood - so just checking:
> 
> ...


Option (A)
All you need are 2 resistors one for each channel from hot (+) to the common ground in the TRS connector. 

JJ


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Bill, you're too hard on yourself



Mine fell all the way out a long time ago.  But on the plus side, no further nervosa about them possibly being loose.


----------



## johnjen (May 8, 2020)

The title of this post is…
*Don't you just hate it when that happens…?*

So that $250 duplex receptacle is still in the process of blossoming and continues to reveal yet more inner - outer - lower-mid-high - soundstage - *REALNESS* - *HOLO* - *SDSG* - *I5* and probably a few other descriptors. (See the link in sig line for definitions.), AND set new records, all the way around.

But I'm gunna hold off making a more complete evaluation until the shifts and morphing of the SQ has stabilized and I can more fully describe what I'm hearing.

But as of now the bar has risen in unexpected and wonderous ways that require new words, or concepts, or perceptual frameworks, or sumpt'n…

But the end results, at least thus far are, now I just can't return this $250 duplex receptacle and I may need to add another, just to see what happens.
Talk about a budget buster, and JUST for duplex receptacles…

*Don't you just hate it when that happens…?*

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I'm gunna take a stab at describing what the changes are, at least thus far.
I say that because it appears these $250 duplex'rs will take several hundred hrs. to fully stabilize and 'show their stuff'.
Well that is if they follow a recurring pattern from other such mods and experiments.
And so far I guess I'm in the 250hr range ±.
And it may take in excess of 400hrs, but we'll see.

Right now the SQ has changed every single descriptor and audio term I have come up with to describe what I hear, and they ALL have jumped up at once.
This is a 1st.
Usually several will be improved or even all of the 'primary' ones that make immediate differences in SQ, but they ALL stepped up at once which is akin to the saying 'the Sum is greater than all of the parts together'.

Think, stripping away a veil so 'broadband' in ALL acoustic aspects that everything, every single acoustic/sonic trait just got *'BETTER'*, all at once.
Another way to describe it is, a slew rate & dynamic range & FR smoothing, all stepped up, along with a *tLFF* reduction, all at once.

Attack, *LEDI, C3*, soundstage stability, *Realness, Holo,* *'voice'* authenticity, presence, the list goes on and on…

And in my truest Inspector Clueso voice…
I alvaise except ze shallanngé

So I'm going to see what happens when I use a pair of these $250 duplex'rs as termination from a couple of different ac supply configurations.
It just might be that bypassing the existing isolation &/or voltage step down xfmrs in place, might prove to be beneficial.

With this newly attained, added degree of resolution, it should be much easier to hear any differences, either way (better or worse).

Lastly what I hear is EVERYthing has more there, there, but not more exaggerated nor out of balance with everything else within the soundstage.
It's that old, 'more of the acoustic energy that is created, is aligned and focused where it needs to be, and NOT where it shouldn't be', thing.
On steroids…

JJ


----------



## johnjen (May 11, 2020)

I figure most of you have never even heard of a Western Electric 124 amplifier, at least before reading a bit about it in this thread.

And so I'll provide a bit more of a 'up close and personal' looky see into this 'odd ball' amp.




This is a ≈12-20watt/ch 'industrial' amp designed about 80 years ago by Western Electric.
It uses a pair of 348A drivers and a pair of 350B as output tubes.
These are pentode tubes, meaning they have 2 more internal parts called screens in addition to the 3 primary parts, the plate, the grid and cathode.
The filaments are 'assumed' so they aren't counted.

However, using 'real' NOS WE tubes would make this a 10-20K$ amp, which is simply not gunna happen.
So instead for each amp I'll be using a pair of 6C6 drivers and a pair of 6L6GC as the output tubes, at least to start with.

This amp is a 'novel' push-pull design with 'unique' feed back like circuits used to 'tame' and operate the pentodes more as triodes.
It sounds complex and it is, and so much so that I only have a tenuous grasp of the how and what and why of this circuit.
But that won't stop me from trying to convey not only it's uniqueness but its strengths and suitability as a speaker amp for efficient speakers, especially in a desktop/near field arrangement.

Rarely will you hear of pentode tube amps used AS pentodes and that is because pentodes have 'performance foibles' when used AS pentodes.
What usually happens is they are 'strapped' as triodes (meaning wired and operated as triode tubes) instead, to avoid these 'performance foibles'.

The 6L6 'parts bin' amp is wired sorta like this except it is wired in 'ultralinear' mode (which also tends to 'tame' the 'performance foibles'), but it could be easily re-wired for triode mode.
But the power output drops by ≈1/2 or more when this happens.

The reason pentodes are used is they can crank out more power and a whopping 20 watts, back in the early 40's was a 'big deal' indeed.
And even today with speakers that are in the 100dB/w (±5dB/w), 20 watts, especially in a near field setup, has plenty of headroom with the added punch that plenty of reserve can enable.

This amp also reflects the specifications that were available back then and so by today's 'standards' might seem like a step backwards.
Except that the SQ of the amp makes these specs almost meaningless.
To wit, 12 watts @ 2.0% @400Hz THD and -37dB s/n relative to 0.001watt.
These specs are based upon full (rated) output, and where we will use this amp, at < 5watts, the distortion etc, will be far less, like orders of magnitude less.

This is a 'normal' characteristic of tubes, where as full power is approached, the distortion tends to 'sky's out', (is non-linear, meaning it rises very rapidly).
And the very nature of the harmonic content is also a BIG factor in how the amp 'sounds', especially when pushed, which we really won't need to do in the first place.

So this amp project is getting parts ordered and tubes collected and will be built as mono-blocks, which is how the amp was designed, since stereo wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eyes at that point in time.

So my collection of 6C6 tubes thus far…

There are 4 Sylvania's, 4 Arcturus's, a matched pair of National Union's, with a smattering of Tung-Sol, Hytron, and Cunningham tubes.

6C6's have that 'button' on top of the tube for connection to the grid for this tube, which means it only carries the input signal (0-4volts max).
This is a good thing since I have 'curious cats' who will sniff any new stuff and if we used tubes where the button on top carried plate voltage (B+ of 350vdc), well, there would be cat shrieking, at least once.
Which we don't have to deal with…    hahahahahahahaha   

This will be a rather unique build and for more reasons than outlined here thus far.
It promises to be a 'stellar' performer with a heritage back to the heyday of tube design by the eminent Western Electric company and without the outrageous expense of using WE tubes.

JJ


----------



## magicscreen

Morgan Jones - Building valve amplifiers
"_Beam valves_ and mains transformers. _Beam valves_ deliberately focus their current into thin sheets that pass largely unintercepted between the horizontal wires... "

What does that "beam valves" mean?


----------



## johnjen

I've not heard that particular term before.
I have heard of beam forming or focusing screens which are used in tetrodes and pentodes.

And if this is similar then these screens are used to add more electron 'flow' to increase the power of the tube.

Perhaps others will know more specifics.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

magicscreen said:


> Morgan Jones - Building valve amplifiers
> "_Beam valves_ and mains transformers. _Beam valves_ deliberately focus their current into thin sheets that pass largely unintercepted between the horizontal wires... "
> 
> What does that "beam valves" mean?



It means that it is a tube with beam forming plates instead of a suppressor grid like a pentode would have.


----------



## johnjen (May 27, 2020)

So an update.
The Purp-Amp has reached a degree of stability in terms of SQ, but still does require fussing with the knobs and adjustments from time to time, in order to keep in it the sweet spot.
I figure it has to do with thermal mass and stability along with a bit of wear and tare on some of the parts.

But as a 'research' tool and 'demonstrator' it has proven not only it's worth, but also how far we can push the SQ and in which ways.
And not just in terms of basic design implementation changes, but also how effective my secret sauce 'mixes' can be and in which ways.
Along with how 'sensitive' it has become to external tweaks and such.
Not to mention the net effect that tubes can make to the overall SQ.

All of this is part of the learning curve dealing with figuring what does and doesn't make improvements to the overall musicality of this amp.

I did some back of the cocktail napkin math and figured that at ear splitting *peak* SPL's this amp delivers ≈ 0.39w into my 800's which is roughly 1/2 of the tubes rated output.
Normal 'average' power being used at those same levels are ≈0.0008w

But at 'normal' listening levels there are peak levels of ≈0.01w and ≈0.000056w 'average' power is being used.

And all of these calculations are based upon a 32Ω output impedance.
And the 800's use but a fraction of even these power levels.

In short, for mid to high Ω HP's, the amount of power used is minuscule and these results also tell us that the design of the amp MUST be able to deliver, with integrity, ALL of the small signals, because the music as delivered to the HP's is ALL in these mW ranges.

This is also why the 71A output tube with a MAX power rating of 0.79w can 'do the job' and not run into clipping, even at deafening SPL's.

JJ


----------



## gefski (May 27, 2020)

johnjen said:


> So an update.
> The Purp-Amp has reached a degree of stability in terms of SQ, but still does require fussing with the knobs and adjustments from time to time, in order to keep in it the sweet spot.
> I figure it has to do with thermal mass and stability along with a bit of wear and tare on some of the parts.
> 
> ...


Great explanation, JJ.    Should be real disappointing to the “lotsa wattsa” crowd.  HAHAHA


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Great explanation, JJ.    Should be real disappointing to the “lotsa wattsa” crowd.  HAHAHA


“lotsa wattsa”   hahahahahahahahahahahahahha

And yeah the amount of power we need is teeny tiny and those peak measurements were taken while playing bass heavy tracks with my DSP on and the sub bass (14Hz) boosted by +14dB.

Kinda makes ya wonder don't it?
hahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> “lotsa wattsa”   hahahahahahahahahahahahahha
> 
> And yeah the amount of power we need is teeny tiny and those peak measurements were taken while playing bass heavy tracks with my DSP on and the sub bass (14Hz) boosted by +14dB.
> 
> ...



Math is hard. I'll just take your word for it.


----------



## johnjen (May 29, 2020)

It all boils down to E=IR (E)voltage = (I)current x (R)resistance.
I measure the voltage, both peak and average and use the R of 32Ω to figure the current for those voltages.
Then I multiply the voltage x current to determine the wattage.

This calculates numbers that are representative of the conditions as music is playing.

And really trying to condense the dynamic that is music into a snap shot of a single number is like herding cats, its kinda shows what is happening but is not completely inclusive nor truly representative of what is truly happening in real time.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> It all boils down to E=IR (E)voltage = (I)current x (R)resistance.
> I measure the voltage, both peak and average and use the R of 32Ω to figure the current for those voltages.
> Then I multiply the voltage x current to determine the wattage.
> 
> ...




You could also do  W = (V^2)/R it saves you a step. However you have to also figure that the current on the secondary is split between your resistor and your headphones. So your calculation need to incorporate how much power is being put out vs how much power your headphones themselves are receiving.


----------



## johnjen

Yes indeed there is a 'bleed off' into the higher Ω load (the cans) but I was just figuring the output power the amp delivers at 32Ω to make the point that the power we actually use is so small it points directly at those small signal dynamics.

And if I were to napkin math it again and the jump from 32Ω to 320Ω (a x 10 multiplier) this would reduce those already minuscule wattage numbers and add another 0 between the decimal point and the calculated number, and in some cases divide it in ≈ 1/2 again (at 640Ω).
These reflect the Ω range of the HD800 (≈325 - 680Ω).

And I'm 'old skewl', so that thar new math of using squares is for you young'ns always trying to skip steps and such…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha    

Not to mention I use 1.414 and invert it, adding yet another step in the conversion from p-p to rms.
Yep 'old skewl' fer sure.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Yes indeed there is a 'bleed off' into the higher Ω load (the cans) but I was just figuring the output power the amp delivers at 32Ω to make the point that the power we actually use is so small it points directly at those small signal dynamics.
> 
> And if I were to napkin math it again and the jump from 32Ω to 320Ω (a x 10 multiplier) this would reduce those already minuscule wattage numbers and add another 0 between the decimal point and the calculated number, and in some cases divide it in ≈ 1/2 again (at 640Ω).
> These reflect the Ω range of the HD800 (≈325 - 680Ω).
> ...



Yeah, but the 32 ohms you're calculating with is impedance, not resistance.  Whether that makes any difference or not is unknown....I already fessed up that I suck at math. LOL!


----------



## johnjen

Yes that's all true, but the additional capacitance and inductance are also minuscule and so add a minimal amount of additional load that the amp sees. 

And actually I have a fixed 35Ω resistor across the output xfmr which is in parallel to the HD800's (320-680Ω) which results in a 32Ω load ≈±1Ω.
So really the vast majority of the load is predominantly resistive.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I'm now playing around with varying the amount of 'matched' filament voltage that is being applied to the 71A output tubes.

I started out with 5.001 thru 5.009vdc as a range.
Then moved to the range of 5.02 thru 5.09vdc.
And now I've worked up to 5.11 to 5.19vdc range and will continue to slowly increase the filament supply voltage up to a 'safe' upper limit of ≈ 4-5% (5.2 to 5.25vdc).

I'm listening for SQ and tube noise changes, as I adjust the B+ to stay in the 170VDC sweet spot.

I must say that thus far the SQ has seemed to further stabilize and has added a bit more resolution - inner detail - focus.
But I'm not done running the full range of voltages so there may be more acoustic changes in store.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I'm now playing around with varying the amount of 'matched' filament voltage that is being applied to the 71A output tubes.
> 
> I started out with 5.001 thru 5.009vdc as a range.
> Then moved to the range of 5.02 thru 5.09vdc.
> ...


JJ are you still listening to the HEDD? Don’t see it listed in your stuff.


----------



## johnjen

Say there gefski.

No I don't have them anymore.
HEDD wanted them sent to Jude as a 'demonstrator' pair for the headfi community…

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 20, 2020)

So it just occurred to me that I never connected a few dots between the meaning of a few of the 'special' words I use to describe 'beneficial' sonic and acoustic attributes, and how I relate them together into a 'tool' to use during evaluation of the net effect of mods and experiments.

It's really simple, and it's like this.
How loud can I crank it till it gets uncomfortable and I HAVE to turn it down?
Then I figure how long can I listen at that lowered SPL.
And I keep lowering the MOAR knob until the irritation aka *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor) is not a factor any more.

I then keep track of what the 'high water mark' was and see if it has been increased, or not.
There are particular 'test tracks' that are especially helpful for these types of tests.

This testing has revealed a truism, that being louder is better, IF *tLFF* has been minimized for the entire system.
This is yet another D'oh, forehead slap moment, I mean D'uh YEAH!!!!

There is a great deal of low level inner detail that can be heard IF it is sufficiently elevated in SPL and when combined with our ears rising sensitivity to the very bottom end low frequencies, can make for 'engaging' musical experiences.
BUT this 'trick' only really works IF the *tLFF* doesn't rattle our teeth, so to speak.

IOW IF we can remain at 'elevated' levels without *tLFF* raising it's ugly voice, THEN the brain will re-train itself and the system will settle into that range of operation and the SQ can become sublime and fully engaging.

In short, when you can crank it, and not let *tLFF* get in your face, the SQ can simply be marvelous.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I've achieved *Pluckyness*.
My latest fussing's with filament voltage settings, and keeping everything else dialed in, has revealed a degree of leading edge plosiveness to any plucked or picked or struck strings, or beat or struck upon drum head.

It's a subtle yet appreciated additional aspect to the *'REALNESS'* aspect of SQ of those instruments that can get plucked or picked or struck, or beat upon…

This is directly related to *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) but is more focused upon the instruments ability to deliver punch with power instead of just delivering speed and adroitness with resolution.

As in 'My, that sure sounds Plucky to me!!!!  
hahahahahahahahahahha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So I've achieved *Pluckyness*.
> My latest fussing's with filament voltage settings, and keeping everything else dialed in, has revealed a degree of leading edge plosiveness to any plucked or picked or struck strings, or beat or struck upon drum head.
> 
> It's a subtle yet appreciated additional aspect to the *'REALNESS'* aspect of SQ of those instruments that can get plucked or picked or struck, or beat upon…
> ...



At some point someone needs to create a 'Johnjen Translator' iPhone app that automatically opens when something like* LEDI* appears.


----------



## johnjen

I'll get right on that, well at least I'll put it at the end of my to-do-list and jump right into all of that as soon as that list rolls around to it.    

In the mean time the 1st post of this thread does contain links to all of my *Bold*ened nifty terms and their definitions, which is shown in the first line of my sig line.
But for now everyone will just have to use this backup for convenience and such…      hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 5, 2020)

Yet another status report.

The Purp-Amp has continued to improve as I fuss with finding the 'best' filament voltage to run this amp.
Thus far while making small (0.01v) steps up from 5.1 vdc to the filament voltage for the 71A output tubes, I've wound up in the range of 5.19 to 5.20vdc while keeping the B+ voltage across the tubes to 170vdc.

This has yielded improvements in multiple ways.
#1 The amount and types/kinds of noise of these 80yr old tubes have, has been reduced and significantly so.

#2 The SQ has risen yet again with more dynamic impact (*LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) & *Pluckyness*) everywhere.  There is more 'aliveness' or *REALNESS* which makes for a more engaging *T3* (Toe Tapping Time) and *HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving) listening experience, and even 'Air Piano' has taken a step up.

#3 Overall operational stability has also improved, with a narrower window of adjustment needed to keep these key voltages in their sweet spot.

It's taken a while to dial all of this in but thus far the end results are most gratifying across the board.

And for those who are wondering why I pursued this course of action in the 1st place…
These 71A tubes like all the other DHT tubes I'm going to be using (26 & 45 & 300B) use the filament as THE direct source of electrons, so small voltage changes at this input of the tube has a much more direct effect upon the operation of these tubes vs. indirectly heated tubes (ones with a separate cathode).
Another way of viewing this is, I'm supplying an optimal amount of voltage which then becomes the amplified signal, and so the voltage inputs can meet the needed output power requirements because they are more closely matched.

Sorta like Momma Bear, not to much nor to little, but just right…
hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 14, 2020)

My new current project is building a power distribution box with 3 duplex receptacles to power the new inbound gear.

I'll need at least 6 plug capacity for all of the new tube gear that will be showing up soon-ish.

I've mentioned the 2 monoblock speaker amps, the WE-124 variant/derivative (*ƒ'124*), (2 plugs).
The 26 pre-amp with 2) #26 tubes (1 plug).
The 45 HP amp with 2) #45 tubes (1 plug).
The 300B HP amp with 2) #300B tubes (1 plug).
The Purp-Amp with #71A and 6BQ7 tubes (1 plug).

And of course I'll need to make up additional interconnects and power cables to accommodate all of this.
This of course also means I'll be fussing and dialing in these circuits to optimize everything, like the tubes and their operating voltages, adding my secret sauce(s), getting everything all settled in and stable etc.

I am especially intrigued with the 26 pre-amp driving the 45 HP amp, as there will only be 2 tubes/ch for this entire chain.
This setup is all Class A SET design using DHT's, and with a collection of matched 'vintage' tubes from the 1930's and 40's to choose from as well as some new production matched sets as well.

And of course the 300B amp should be a 'contendah' as well.
And to be able to compare each of these 3 HP amps to each other from the same source(s) will be a treat as well.

I'm especially pleased, as the Purp-Amp has reached such an enticing SQ plateau, it makes for an elevated SQ target to shoot for, by any of these other HP amps.

JJ


----------



## Zachik

johnjen said:


> My new current project is building a power distribution box with 3 duplex receptacles to power the new inbound gear.


Are you planning to have any sort of filtering or power conditioning?  I assume you'd post more as you start making decisions and progress... 



johnjen said:


> And of course I'll need to make up additional interconnects and power cables to accommodate all of this.


I need to replace couple stock black power cords, so hope you'd provide more info on this mini-project as well. Being a newb with DIY - always better to learn from others' experiences.


----------



## johnjen

Zachik said:


> Are you planning to have any sort of filtering or power conditioning?  I assume you'd post more as you start making decisions and progress...


All of my power conditioning (isolation xfmrs etc.) will be feeding this distribution box.
https://www.partsconnexion.com/CONXKIT-81353.html
And I'll swap out the 'stock' duplex receptacles with 2 of the SR 'orange' (the outrageously/stupid expensive) duplex receptacles.



Zachik said:


> I need to replace couple stock black power cords, so hope you'd provide more info on this mini-project as well. Being a newb with DIY - always better to learn from others' experiences.


My latest cable builds use 2) single conductor THHN 16awg copper wires for each conductor, so there are 6 wires in a light twist which terminate in cryo'd rhodium plated plugs and IEC connectors.  The cable is then covered in braided sleeving.

Yes they are stiff and need to be shaped to fit, but are effectively 13awg ac power cables and are low cost (≈$40 each).
And I of course, as is my modus operendi, will apply additional 'conditioning' tweaks etc. to give them that extra touch of euphonic goodness.
Just because I can…     
hahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And I just gotta describe this, one off - unique - simplistic, 4 tube pre/HP Amp combo, thing.

Each channel of the pre-amp uses a single DHT triode fed by an input xfmr, which then feeds an AVC (Autoformer Volume Control) which then exits the pre-amp.
It will have 3 switchable inputs and outputs and is volume controlled by the 26 step AVC.

This then feeds a step up input xfmr, which drives the single 45 output tube.  Which then feeds the output xfmr and HP load.
So that makes it a DAC-xfmr-tube-xfmr-xfmr-tube-xfmr-HP chain.

This simplifies the power supply and the entire circuit path, and there is only one crapacitor in the direct circuit path.
This is about as simple a circuit with a 'real' pre-amp front end, and a separate HP amp with approx 1.5w/ch max power of which I'll need ≈0.2w for ear bleed levels.

I'm figur'n its gunna be a killer setup once it all gets dialed in.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 15, 2020)

So the a fore mentioned Power Distribution Box showed up today and is in place and burning in even as I type this.

Here are the internals.



And the glamor shot…


Upstream of this are 2 line voltage xfmrs.
The black box, at the base of the grey 'tower of power', is a 500va torrodial isolation xfmr with 'balanced' output.
Which then feeds the gray 'tower of power' line voltage lowering xfmr.
This xfmr stack reduces my rather high (≈123-5vac) line voltage from the pole down to 116-119 vac for the tube electronics.
This stack also filters and 'soaks up' spikes from relatively low frequency all the way up.
And both legs are protected by 5amp circuit breakers that are built into the 'tower of power'

And I'm about to disassemble/rebuild my Shunyata power cable (the big one in the pic above) by cutting it in half (for a 2-fer) to make matched short runs for the *ƒ'124* power amps.
This will solve a couple of 'idiosyncrasies' that are inherent with their original design, namely they have ZERO axial twist and are unwieldy.

Then I'll build additional cables to suit the circumstance(s) as needed.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> My new current project is building a power distribution box with 3 duplex receptacles to power the new inbound gear.
> 
> I'll need at least 6 plug capacity for all of the new tube gear that will be showing up soon-ish.
> 
> ...



Some of the China-sourced boxes are quite nice if you haven't already purchased something. Yeah, there's the shipping wait, but the prices are good and the quality of the couple pieces I've purchased has been very high.  Just one example (not suggesting this one specifically):






I got a couple of these for my DIY kit linear power supplies and they turned out very nice:


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So the a fore mentioned Power Distribution Box showed up today and is in place and burning in even as I type this.
> 
> Here are the internals.
> 
> ...



Where in the world did you get those outlets?  Big Lots?  
 I was expecting some Furutechs or at least some Oyaides.  Sheeeez.  And then you talk about slicing up a Shunyata?  I'm having heart palpitations as I write this.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Some of the China-sourced boxes are quite nice if you haven't already purchased something. Yeah, there's the shipping wait, but the prices are good and the quality of the couple pieces I've purchased has been very high.  Just one example (not suggesting this one specifically):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do you have a link for the chassis? 

If I got my hands on something like that, I would be able to build my hybrid amp in short order.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I got a couple of these for my DIY kit linear power supplies


More info on the LPS, please... Your own design? or did you buy the PCB and other parts as a kit and assembled it?


----------



## johnjen (Jul 17, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Where in the world did you get those outlets?  Big Lots?
> I was expecting some Furutechs or at least some Oyaides.  Sheeeez.  And then you talk about slicing up a Shunyata?  I'm having heart palpitations as I write this.


I wondered if anyone would be 'curious' about the innerds.
And really it's somewhat embarrassing as to what the full extent and impact of what I have created truly is.

Because when I add up all the $$$.$$ that went into this ≈$60 box I tend to cringe.
Total cost is ≈ $600, as in blink, blink, what?

Ya see those 2 arrnge receptacles are the latest SR Orange ones and the middle receptacle is a SR Black.
You know, the stupidly exorbitantly expensive ones…

But as a weak sauce attempt to justify this, the AC volt meter on the front does come in handy since it does tell me how much voltage reduction I've achieved, which is yet another tweak in order to dial in these tube circuits.    
The aim was to deliver 117vac ±2 vac which has been achieved.

Why choose 117vac?
Because the mains and filament xfmrs are rated at that input voltage and so are their secondary output voltages.
And when all of the voltages are in their 'happy' range, the SQ takes a decided step up.
As in nailing the filaments to 5.2vdc and 170vdc for the voltage across the 71A output tubes.

But really, admitting in public that I could/actually did spend crazy $$$ for receptacles is like admitting the depth of my audioist addiction.
But in reality these next few boxes of audio delight should really benefit from what these receptacles can actually deliver.
Especially the 26 pre-amp and 45 HP and 300B HP amps.

And the 2) *ƒ'124* mono block ≈20w/ch speaker amps just might totally surprise me as well.

As for dissecting the Shunyata power cable(s), this will be my 2nd surgical procedure to 'upgrade' them.
My 1st upgrade was to replace the 2 ends with higher quality rhodum plated units, which necessitated a disassembly of the ends…

Here is an example of the degree I'm willing to go to 'improve' things.
This is the upgrade I made to my Shunyata IC's from Neutrik connectors to Oyaide Focus 1 xlr connectors.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-49#post-12990679

This go around I'm going to strip off all of the 'excess' Bling and WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) aesthetics, so it's just the cables and decent connectors so they can axially twist and fit into whatever needed shape for easier placement.
That and I've long been a proponent for using short(er) cables for any end use, be it power, interconnect, or HP's etc.

So cutting this cable in half is a win-win-win situation for me.

JJ


----------



## bcowen (Jul 18, 2020)

Zachik said:


> More info on the LPS, please... Your own design? or did you buy the PCB and other parts as a kit and assembled it?



It's a "semi kit" from AMB, this one being the Sigma 22.  You can buy the circuit board and several of the parts from them, but you have to source a number of other parts including whatever chassis/case you want to use, transformer, etc yourself.  They provide excellent instructions and even direct part links to Digikey or Mouser for a lot of the parts needed.  Part of it is that you'll want to configure it for the output voltage and current requirements you need.  This design is only good for up to around 2 amps (IIRC), so great for stuff that doesn't need a lot of current.  That case I bought was about $60 with shipping, and you can obviously go with something less expensive.  Excluding the case, you can be all-in for less than $150 which makes it a pretty nice bargain for an LPS.  Both mine fired up and worked perfectly from the outset, but they have a nice forum with lots of questions and answers if you run into any problems.

www.amb.org


----------



## bcowen (Jul 18, 2020)

johnjen said:


> I wondered if anyone would be 'curious' about the innerds.
> And really it's somewhat embarrassing as to what the full extent and impact of what I have created truly is.
> 
> Because when I add up all the $$$.$$ that went into this ≈$60 box I tend to cringe.
> ...



So no Stardust (or FeSi) in that cable?  

The game changer for me was the original Shunyata King Cobra power cord. I was _very_ firmly entrenched in the belief that as long as a power cord had good quality wire of sufficient gauge for the application and had good construction quality that a power cord was a power cord was a power cord and all the stupid expensive "audiophile" power cords were nothing more than foolishness to the extreme.  Then a friend sent me a King Cobra just to try.  I tried to decline but he insisted, so I accepted it more just to humor him (and the concept) than anything else.  Crap.  He ended up having to literally beg me to send it back, 'cause I wasn't sending it back until I got delivery of one of my own.   Had I stuck to my guns and continued to decry them as total BS, I'd never have known what difference they could make.  I ended up at one point with 8 of them. LOL!  And then there was the original Shunyata Orion (I think that was the name ) speaker cable -- a loose braid of cable in a white outer tech-flex type jacket.  Those blew my mind even more than the King Cobras. And they didn't even have any Stardust.  

I remember the wars that engaged on this subject on another forum back in the day.  Talk about ugliness.  I engaged in a lot of that initially, and then finally gave up after the futility of it all finally sunk in. I have no problem with someone saying "I don't believe in that stuff and have no desire to try it."  Cool enough. Spend your $$ elsewhere and be happy.  The ones that get to me are the ones that have not (and will not) try it, but want to sit on the sidelines and crap all over it simply because it doesn't make sense to them personally.  Try it and don't like it (or don't think it's worth it)?  Fine and cool as far as I'm concerned. At least that opinion is based on experience and trial.  But don't bother to try it and then get all nasty in the complete dismissal of it?  Nothing more than a public display of total ignorance, IMO.


----------



## johnjen (Jul 19, 2020)

I believe it was Gurdjieff who said something to the effect that, when you tell me about something you tell me more about yourself than than what you are describing.

And what is really sad is that some simply can't allow others to have differing viewpoint/opinions/perspectives other than there own.
Like its a violation of TRUTH or something, when it's just their opinion, and sometimes an unsubstantiated opinion at that.

I figure it has to do with self identity or their lack of knowledge of self (Temet Nosce - Know Thyself) which isn't exactly a commonly pursued course of study these days.

I know that when I jumped down the fuse rabbit hole I REALLY didn't want it them make ANY difference, much like these SR arrnge duplex receptacles.
But experience trumps opinion, every, single, time.

But some seem to be allergic or develop a nervous twitch to even begin approaching cognitive dissonance, where their carefully constructed opinions of the how and why of things just crumbles and turns to nothing, by their own actions.

For some. growing up is hard to do, just talk to anyone who has gone thru their own mid life crisis and learned that they really didn't have clue, yet were so convinced that were on top of their game, and had it all handled, until they didn't, they weren't, and it wasn't.

This can lead to a rich source of learning about *H*umility, *A*ppreciation and *G*ratitude.
That and the fact that being (oh the horror) WRONG does NOT get you infected with cooties, but can actually lead to the fast track for learning, if the circumstance is approached with *H-A-G*.
[\soapbox mode]

No stardust, pixiedust, snake oil, magic rocks, nor bangle beads were used in the making of my WAY over priced Power Distribution Box.
At least yet…   hahahahahahahahahahahaha   

Shunyata cables are cryo'd as part of their construction process along with a few other 'select' processes, but when you take one of their cables apart and peer into their innerds there is no magic pixie dust nor shark oil (the upscale version of snake oil and much more eco friendly… ) to be found.
And cryo'ng cables IS a process that yields wonderful results all by itself, is relatively easy to do and isn't all that expensive.

In fact once I get a few more cables made up, I'll be send a 'collection' of them off to be cryo treated.

And the firm belief held by many that wire is wire and it makes no difference, (that old -last 10'- argument) sounds suspiciously like the mantra, that as long as the digital bits arrive, there simply can't be any difference, after all, bits are bits…
Until there is direct experience otherwise.

Like after several weeks of break in on a new *Jggy* dac, and suddenly, it's not the same any more… 

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I believe it was Gurdjieff who said something to the effect that, when you tell me about something you tell me more about yourself than than what you are describing.
> 
> And what is really sad is that some simply can't allow others to have differing viewpoint/opinions/perspectives other than there own.
> Like its a violation of TRUTH or something, when it's just their opinion, and sometimes an unsubstantiated opinion at that.
> ...



Well stated (as usual).  

The original Shunyata power cords like the King Cobra and even the original Hydra units contained the "Stardust" which was later renamed to FeSi after (I think) Caelin Gabriel realized the additional heaping of abuse that particular name created from the non-believers and general rabble rousers.  Have absolutely no idea what the stuff was, other than by shaking the cable it sounded like some small granular substance (perhaps in size akin to rock salt).  It was supposed to absorb and drain away EMI among other things.  I never opened up one of those (expensive) cables to take a look, and even if I had I still wouldn't have had a clue what the chemical composition of the stuff was.  All I knew was that putting one of those cables in the system (first on the CD player) was not a subtle change.  And adding more cords just added *MOAR* (in your terms). 

A blast from the _*way*_ past:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/shunyata_hydra.htm

As far as fuses, I hesitate to go there, even here.   That subject causes worms to spew volcano-like out of the can similar to fire ants blasting out of an established nest when you step on the mound.  And if you don't live in an area with fire ants, you're missing out on lots and lots of fun.


----------



## Ripper2860

Very nice article.  What are the odds that the author is also named Bill Cowen?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Very nice article.  What are the odds that the author is also named Bill Cowen?



Slim.


----------



## Ripper2860

So there's still a possibility!!


----------



## A2029

bcowen said:


> Well stated (as usual).
> 
> The original Shunyata power cords like the King Cobra and even the original Hydra units contained the "Stardust" which was later renamed to FeSi after (I think) Caelin Gabriel realized the additional heaping of abuse that particular name created from the non-believers and general rabble rousers.  Have absolutely no idea what the stuff was, other than by shaking the cable it sounded like some small granular substance (perhaps in size akin to rock salt).  It was supposed to absorb and drain away EMI among other things.  I never opened up one of those (expensive) cables to take a look, and even if I had I still wouldn't have had a clue what the chemical composition of the stuff was.  All I knew was that putting one of those cables in the system (first on the CD player) was not a subtle change.  And adding more cords just added *MOAR* (in your terms).
> 
> ...



Highly likely that the "Stardust" inside the cables is just powdered ferrite material.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So there's still a possibility!!



I had a previous life.  Mostly non-criminal.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I had a previous life.  *Mostly non-criminal.*


Booooooring.....


----------



## johnjen (Jul 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well stated (as usual).


Thanks, I do try to be evocative and thought provoking, with varying degrees of success, but that has never stopped me in the past… hahahahahahahahahahaha 



bcowen said:


> The original Shunyata power cords like the King Cobra and even the original Hydra units contained the "Stardust" which was later renamed to FeSi after (I think) Caelin Gabriel realized the additional heaping of abuse that particular name created from the non-believers and general rabble rousers.  Have absolutely no idea what the stuff was, other than by shaking the cable it sounded like some small granular substance (perhaps in size akin to rock salt).  It was supposed to absorb and drain away EMI among other things.  I never opened up one of those (expensive) cables to take a look, and even if I had I still wouldn't have had a clue what the chemical composition of the stuff was.  All I knew was that putting one of those cables in the system (first on the CD player) was not a subtle change.  And adding more cords just added *MOAR* (in your terms).
> 
> A blast from the _*way*_ past:
> 
> http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/shunyata_hydra.htm


 My research has told me that this entire subject (delivery of ac power) is more complex than merely the wire itself. Aspects such as conductor size, wire composition, contact patch between connectors, metallurgy, *CP's *(Choke Points), even magic rocks (in a wide variety of manifestations), all _*can*_ make a difference.
But that doesn't mean that any of these, by themselves, will in every system.

And thus far it seems as though finding those *CP's* that are the most limiting 1st, is the ticket to realizing that these factors are influential but also in what ways and how much net effect they can make.

Most folks are 'limited' to the easy changes like cables, fuses, perhaps some vibration dampening etc.
But then there are those folks like me who think nothing about tearing Schiit apart to see if there is anything that can be optimized and in what ways.
And over the decades lessons have been learned, both of what NOT to do as well as what should/must be done etc.
And why.   

Along the way I have learned about ac power delivery and those persnickety factoids of note that are very influential in optimizing said ac power delivery.

As in MOAR 4 ME… hahahahahahahahahahahaha  



bcowen said:


> As far as fuses, I hesitate to go there, even here.  That subject causes worms to spew volcano-like out of the can similar to fire ants blasting out of an established nest when you step on the mound. And if you don't live in an area with fire ants, you're missing out on lots and lots of fun.


When I 1st started out fussing with tubes and electronics back in the pleistocene era, fuses were 5¢ each (or even cheaper) and I rarely ever had to change them.  Well except for when things went POP for whatever reason (ooops that probe slipped and the spark WAS impressive)…   
And to pay not just 10's but 100's of $'s for a sacrificial part rubbed me the wrong way, and still does.
It just tain't natchl…  

EXCEPT there is NO denying they make a substantial difference to me, in my system, and has, every, single, time.
And for those who deny such things are even possible, well again, experience trumps opinion, every, single, time.

And that doesn't mean they are wrong, for them, but to insist it has to be true for everyone is silly, especially if they have little to no practical experience to substantiate their opinion.
And their opinion does apply to them and their system, but to then make the leap and extrapolate this minimal or complete lack of experience and apply it to everyone else and then to then denigrate those who have differing experiences,
is just silly.

Cognitive dissonance can really shake up some people, to the point where 'he who garners the biggest dog pile after shouting the loudest, prevails' becomes the norm, much to everyone else's detriment, as it stops all forward progress into discovering any further details and related aspects.
You know like why, and how, and when, these lettle tiny wyrz can make such audible differences.

More's the pity all the way around.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I discovered yet another part of the circuit to tweak in my Purp-Amp.
It’s the tube socket to tube pin connections.

Sometimes I can lightly tap the top plate and the sound goes all crunchy (a certified technical term if ever there was one  ) so I started looking for a wire that was shorting or a loose connection etc.
Then I rattled the tube base and the crunchy returned, so I knew I'd 'found it'.

So I clean the tube pins using a piece of white scotch-brite and after reinserting them, the crunch was gone.

And after I clean and apply a coating of secret sauce to the pins, I usually have to also check the filament and B+ voltages and make small adjustments just to get everything back into the sweet spot.

And I also have to say that the SQ has reached a state where what I hear are just the *'voices'* (instruments and vocals etc.) and the room etc. since the entire system just disappears.
This is where even terribly recorded music from the 50's and 60's (think early rolling stones) sounds intriguing and the autonomic reaction to reach for the MOAR control to turn it down or off, has been reversed.
And the few tracks and albums I use as bad source music just for this test are just now being played full length and even cranked up, where as before that would have been an exercise in how much can I stand before my hand reaches for the Moar knob to cease the torment.

The #1 album, with a bullet, for this test (besides the Rolling Stones) is the Perfume Genius album, Too Brite.
This album will let you know, and in no uncertain terms, if your system will butcher this album.

And of course those albums and tracks that are sublime are just amazing, in every way.
There are 'new' '*voices'* I've never heard, or at least I can now identify them for what they truly are. 
And even when I turn the MOAR knob way down, the inner detail and the entire bandwidth of the music is still there, including the deep/subsonic bass.

This ability to hear and feel the *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) at greatly reduced spl's is a sure sign of excellent Coupling (one of the *C3*'s).
Which is another way of saying that the waveform being created is not 'wasting' its energetic potential by spreading it out thru time nor in creating inaccurate leading edge and peak amplitudes.
In short the energy inherent in the wave forms are 'efficiently' and more accurately being delivered to my ears, for which I am very grateful and enthralled.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I discovered yet another part of the circuit to tweak in my Purp-Amp.
> It’s the tube socket to tube pin connections.
> 
> Sometimes I can lightly tap the top plate and the sound goes all crunchy (a certified technical term if ever there was one  ) so I started looking for a wire that was shorting or a loose connection etc.
> ...



Another cleaner I like for the hardcore stuff like you use scotch-brite for is Happich Simichrome, which I’ve used for decades with car & jet-ski stuff. As you polish out, it really gets black, so it’s definitely taking material off. Just to make sure no residue is left behind, I always follow with Deox or 99% alky.


----------



## johnjen (Jul 28, 2020)

Yeah Simichrome and silver polish both turn black as the oxide layers are chemically removed.

I was leaning more toward the dry cleaning (scotch-brite dry) approach.
But then there is the oil drench of the newly burnished pins that can also work as the oil stops/slows the rate of oxidation…

But I might have come up with a 'Better' solution all the way around, at least for me.
I just need to practice, to work out the details, along with, find out if all this extra fuss would be worth the effort wrt SQ.

I'm think'n this could be a big step up, but 1st I need to jump down this rabbit hole and see where I land…

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 29, 2020)

Ok so I used an old broken DHT tube and added my mods and took a few pics.

To wit…
This 1st is a pic of the insides of a (slightly) mangled DHT.



I figured most have never seen one of these up close and personal…


Then a pic of the test case for hardwiring the tube pins to the socket solder tabs.

 

And another.

 

And you'll note that the wire wraps around the top of the solder eyelets.
This accomplishes 3 things.
#1 provides a suitable solder connection
#2 stabilizes this wire and the tubes connection to the rest of the circuit, such that ANY microphonic activity that might influence the tube to socket connection has now been mitigated.
#3 makes the ability to reverse this mod all the easier, since one end is mechanically 'tied down' as well as soldered, so that the other end of the wire can be cut or just unsoldered and the tube removed normally.

More later as I set my jaw into Manly Mode and raise an eyebrow (or 2?) and begin surgery on these tweako tubes to add ≈3/4" pieces of 18g wire to the very bottom of each pin, where the old solder resides and must also be addressed…

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 29, 2020)

After surgery progress reports are just coming in now and the early prognostication is…




Wholey Hot Schiit.
My experience is vindicated yet again, in that hardwiring is ALWAYS superior, especially in heated, high voltage, low current circuits (read tube circuits).
(EDIT) And this topic (hardwiring) is closely related to the topic of contact patch, or more precisely the absence of even the need for any contact patch as it relates to connectors and even switches.

And the amp isn't even up to full operating temps, or voltages, nor reached stability and already the inner detail, focus, REALNESS and just about everything else has taken a veritable plethora of mutha may steps up already.

But I should wait until it reaches stability and after I dial in the filament and B+ voltages, before I pronounce this tweak a complete success.

Right now the Beatles Abbey Road is revealing nuances and inner details etc I have never heard before.
Next up is Daft Punk Random Access Memories…

(EDIT)  the amp is still settling in but when its in it's 'happy zone' the increase in the inner details and focus everywhere, as in from the very bottom, on thru those glorious magic in the mids and all the way up into the twinkle and tissss zone, is sneaky.
I don't realize the full impact of the differences until after each 'voice' has been paid attention to.
And the added 'richness' in each voice (think moisture on the breath) is most appreciated.

Tomorrow the SQ should be killer after a complete cool down and another tweak of the voltski's.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

I think I now 'get' what has happened to the SQ.  
It still isn't fully dialed in as it needs a few more tweak cycles yet, even so the net result is becoming more 'pronounced'.

It's a tricky change in that most of the audible shifts and changes I have learned to pay attention to are only 'hinted at' with two major exceptions.
*tLFF* (theListenerFatigueFactor) has been significantly reduced and it shows up in the perceived shift to the position of the *MOAR* knob wrt *tLFF*.

IOW I can now crank it up by +6db (3 clicks on my stepped *MOAR* knob) and there is no additional *tLFF*.  I'll be pushing it to +8, +10, +12dB but not right now as the musical enjoyment factor has captured my full attention, 
thank you very much…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Oh and here are a few of the during and post surgery pics of this crazy experiment.

I figure others MUST have tried this before, and I can't be the first in 80yrs to apply this 'treatment' to DHT tubes.
But I haven't heard of anyone else performing this type of surgical procedure before either…
So who knows???

Here is a shot of the71A tube being modified.

Keen eyes will see the itty bitty dab of solder paste on the 2 unmodified pins…
This help breaks down the oxidation on the surface of the old solder, so when the new wire is inserted it will bond properly.

And after the tube has been inserted into the tube socket.

You can see the wires sneaking out the sides of the pin receivers,

So that the wires can be wrapped around the solder eyelets.


From there it was just a matter of a quick solder job of the wrapped wires.
You'll notice that I left a 'tail' hanging out so I can more easily unwrap the wire should the need arise.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Oh and here are a few of the during and post surgery pics of this crazy experiment.
> 
> I figure others MUST have tried this before, and I can't be the first in 80yrs to apply this 'treatment' to DHT tubes.
> But I haven't heard of anyone else performing this type of surgical procedure before either…
> ...


That is very kewl. And weekly tube rolling is out...and unnecessary, right?


----------



## johnjen (Jul 31, 2020)

Yeah this set of tubes has achieved a degree of SQ where any additional tube rolling is completely unnecessary.
I mean this amp has set the bar so far beyond what any other system I have ever heard can deliver, save one, that refinements/tweaks are all that remain.

And if I did need to replace/swap these tubes, they are removable. 
Ie. this mod is completely reversible, so in like 20 minutes I could drop in other tubes, but I doubt any other tubes will even come close to equaling these 80yr old Arcturus tubes.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So there is this repeatable behavior I have been noticing for a while now.

We (those of us who have or are still running tubes) all know that tubes 'wear out' so to speak.
They accumulate hrs and start to get noisy, a tragedy especially after you've found 'just that perfect set' of tubes and then they start to 'intrude' on our playing conductor, or air guitar, or air piano, or air drums etc. with a crackle here, a zztzzt there, a zzrrrkk, just enough to keep reminding you that your treasured tubes are still just tubes and they do wear out.
Ohh the horror…  

BUT in my Purp-Amp, when I hear these 'disturbances in the force', the circuit is telling me the voltages are off/out of the sweet spot.
So I go under the hood and fuss with the trim pots and dial it all back in, and violá the gremlins 'have left the building' and the circuit is quiet once again.
And I am actually adjusting the CCS (Constant Current Source) for the 6BQ7 driver tube which is direct coupled and directly drives the 71A output tubes.

Thus far I'm shooting for 170Vdc ±1 vdc (or better) on the voltage across the 71A tubes and 5.20Vdc ±0.01vdc for the filaments in this direct coupled amp.
And when these settings are matched for both tubes the SQ gets *S/S* (Spooky Scary) and a whole bunch of other of my special nifty descriptors all at the same time.

Just like I like.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So there is this repeatable behavior I have been noticing for a while now.

We (those of us who have, or are still running tubes) all know that tubes 'wear out' so to speak.
They accumulate hrs and start to get noisy, a tragedy especially after you've found 'just that perfect set' of tubes and then they start to 'intrude' on our playing conductor, or air guitar, or air piano, or air drums etc. with a crackle here, a zztzzt there, a zzrrrkk, just enough to keep reminding you that your treasured tubes are still just tubes and they do wear out.
Ohh the horror…  

BUT in my Purp-Amp, when I hear these 'disturbances in the force', the circuit is telling me the voltages are off/out of the sweet spot.
So I go under the hood and fuss with the trim pots and dial it all back in, and violá the gremlins 'have left the building' and the circuit is quiet once again.
And I am actually adjusting the CCS (Constant Current Source) for the 6BQ7 driver tube which is direct coupled and directly drives the 71A output tubes.

Thus far I'm shooting for 170Vdc ±1 vdc (or better) on the voltage across the 71A tubes and 5.20Vdc ±0.01vdc for the filaments in this direct coupled amp.
And when these settings are matched for both tubes the SQ gets *S/S* (Spooky Scary) and a whole bunch of other of my special nifty descriptors all at the same time.

Just like I like.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Oh and here are a few of the during and post surgery pics of this crazy experiment.
> 
> I figure others MUST have tried this before, and I can't be the first in 80yrs to apply this 'treatment' to DHT tubes.
> But I haven't heard of anyone else performing this type of surgical procedure before either…
> ...



You *do* realize that you are now completely certifiable beyond question, right?


----------



## johnjen

Was that a real question, or are you just pontificating about the quantity and quality of my reality?  
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha   

But then again this is just the latest in a long line of my, 'what would happen if…' experiments.  
You know, for science and to push the state of the art in exploring audioist SQ tweako tricks.
I mean someone has to do it right?  

And sometimes just being willing to make sacrifices is the formula for success.  

And so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Was that a real question, or are you just pontificating about the quantity and quality of my reality?
> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> But then again this is just the latest in a long line of my, 'what would happen if…' experiments.
> ...



It was a statement disguised as a question.   

Seriously, I love reading about your latest experiments and trials so keep them coming.  I've always been a tweaker, but not quite to your level....yet.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks.   

Yeah fussing with the internals can be a real challenge no doubt, but I have decades of experience dealing with repair/upgrades/updates to a wide range of electronic gear, so adding a couple of wires to the tube pins is relatively 'easy'.

It's mostly a matter of not letting the 'surgery' get out of hand.
That would be 'bad'…   hahahahahahahahaha

But really it's more a matter of figuring out what experiments might yield potential benefits, and why I should pursue them.
This is where experience pays off along with figuring out how to implement them AND keep them reversible.

I still have plans to modify my Rok Amp but these DHT amps have taken most of the wind out of that project's sails.
And I have a slew of new projects on the horizon to keep me occupied as well.
Not to mention a re-build of portions of the Purp-Amp's circuitry to deal with it's 'wear and tare' issues.

Slinging hot solder is not for the squeemish, but then it's not rocket surgery nor brain science either…
hahahahahahahahahha     

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yeah fussing with the internals can be a real challenge no doubt, but I have decades of experience dealing with repair/upgrades/updates to a wide range of electronic gear, so adding a couple of wires to the tube pins is relatively 'easy'.
> 
> ...


But most folks don’t ”solder sling” at head-fi meets in public places!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

gefski said:


> But most folks don’t ”solder sling” at head-fi meets in public places!


----------



## johnjen (Aug 7, 2020)

gefski said:


> But most folks don’t ”solder sling” at head-fi meets in public places!


In my estimation you haven't lived a full life until you have slung a sufficient amount of solder.
And while I have 'exceeded the need' what with my public display of solder slinging et. al, I figure it’s a public service so that the public's fear of slinging is ameliorated.

I'm just here to help.    
hahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> In my estimation you haven't lived a full life until you have slung a sufficient amount of solder.
> And while I have 'exceeded the need' what with my public display of solder slinging et. al, I figure it’s a public service so that the public's fear of slinging is ameliorated.
> 
> I'm just here to help.
> ...


...and as in motorsports, if (when) it breaks, you fix it there and keep racing, or pack up and go home!


----------



## johnjen

Tjj226 Angel said:


>


As in been there, done that?  
AND lived to tell (or not) about it !

hahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Aug 8, 2020)

gefski said:


> ...and as in motorsports, if (when) it breaks, you fix it there and keep racing, or pack up and go home!


Yes!!!  

And besides slinging solder in public might give me a chance to use the distictive DIY'rs perennial one liner…
"Here, hold these 2 wires…"  
hahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> As in been there, done that?
> AND lived to tell (or not) about it !
> 
> hahahahahahahaha
> ...



More like I plead the 5th


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Coming to a John Jen near you.


----------



## johnjen (Aug 15, 2020)

Oh my, OOooooOOOOoOoOOOOOOoooOOoOooOOoOOooOOoOoo

The *ƒ'124* WE amp
≈ 20watts of Western Electric amplifier goodness in a mono block…

This is gunna be a milestone, as in the old (1940's design) and the new (better voltage and current regulation) all wrapped up in a 'suitable' for high efficiency speakers amp…

It should be a veritable 'power house' with ≈20w available playing into 90-100dB efficient speakers.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Aug 20, 2020)

So yet another (older) saga continues.

I think I just found Gen-7 for my J-mods.
And I'm kinda surprised I didn't think of this before now.
And I have another Audiophool to thank for drawing my attention to this.

The net effect is subtle and yields far less noticeable change than any of the other HD800 mods I have made.
And it may not even be discernible on some systems it's that slight.

So far (and it will take more time to fully discern just what has changed) there is an increase in *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact).
As in there is a greater amount of energy being delivered on impacts like drums, cymbals, and 'sharp' leading edged *'voices'* of all kinds.
It's not as if the slew rate increased, but the delivery of the power of the created acoustic wave front, has stepped up a tad, or 2.

I do have to say though that the material Senn used as a 'dust cover' over the 'face' of the driver is FAR more neutral and acoustically transparent than I had originally figured it would be.

Even so the differences are welcome.
It seems especially noticeable on well recorded solo piano, where each key strike has just a bit more 'bite' to it, just a bit more 'presence' if you will.
I don't ever remember hearing such power from key stroke impacts before.

So what did I do?

I removed the dust cover that sits directly in line between the driver's diaphragm and my ears.
It’s a rather sturdy piece of 'fabric' that is an extremely fine mesh material, made from something I can't really identify.
I used to think it was metal but this set of 800's doesn't appear to use that.

It's like a veil has lifted but mostly it seems that it affects the *LEDI* more than anything else.
Which makes sense if a VERY fine mesh 'barrier' is removed, the acoustic pressure wave will travel unimpeded straight into my ears.
Just like we usually remove the front cover on speakers, because we don't want the fabric to be between us and the drivers.

Same thing here, only the distance is MUCH shorter, which means the acoustic wave front has much more resolution when we hear it.
Because as any acoustic wave front travels away from the driver, it immediately begins to lose inner resolution and become more cohesive and coherent.
So by removing the dust cover, I have effectively retained as much of the original waveform resolution as possible.

Now I just need to figure if this is a keeper or not.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And another tweak has been applied to the Purp-Amp with similar results in terms of SQ changes, to the dust cover removal mentioned ^^^.

But this time I made a parts swap by substituting 2) 330Ω resistors for the LED's I was using to bias the 6BQ7A driver tube.

And again the changes while immediately apparent that there was a difference, being able to adaquately describe them is a whole nuther deal.

To take a stab at it…
The degree of *'realness'* has stepped up, as has the *LEDI* and *C3* (Coherence, Cohesion, Coupling) along with *I5* (Intelligibility) and others.

These are traits of less 'smearing' of the analog signal, and are somewhat analogous to either greatly improving a cap in the signal path, or removing it entirely.
All by swapping out LED's for straight resistors.

And I noticed that the power supply 'acted' more 'properly' by tracking more adroitly as I made changes to the bias voltages.
A positive sign.

All in all I need to give it some time to fully settle in and to stabilize the voltages here and there.

But these 2 mods/tweaks are definitely keepers.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So tomorrow, or the day after, I should be installing 'new' DHT filament regulators in the Purp-Amp which will help stabilize this portion of the circuit.  And the next step is to build all new CCS's used to dial in the 71A bias (which actually directly adjust the bias current on 6BQ7A driver tube).
Direct coupled amps are a bit 'odd' in that way.

Right now the SQ has reached a another level of detailed, engaging, articulate, focused, SQ.
There is Ø (null) edgyness at all, and along with a soundstage with depth, that is stable and precise, what's not to like, right?
I'm listening to Led Zepp and it's sucking me into the their music like never before.

I'm hearing voices and nuances that have always been obscured by some form of 'unpleasant' distortion that is now missing, as in gone, by-by…
For really only the 2nd time, is Led Zepp intriguing and enticing, along with *T3* (Toe Tapping Time) and *HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving) etc.

I think I'm on to something here…  
hahahahahahahahaha    

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I'm listening to Led Zepp and it's sucking me into the their music like never before.
> 
> For really only the 2nd time, is Led Zepp intriguing and enticing, along with *T3* (Toe Tapping Time) and *HB&W* (Head Bobbing & Weaving) etc.
> 
> JJ



Soooooo....is Kashmir boring, or does it induce a zombie-like state of musical bliss?  That's the acid test.  I mean, um, the _*true*_ test.  Yeah, that.


----------



## johnjen (Aug 26, 2020)

Oh Wow Man, rock on fer shure…  
hahahahahahahaha

But really what I was hearing was music, as in not just sound(s).
This distinction while seemingly subtle has a big meaningful impact upon my enjoyment (or lack there of) of any album/track that I listen to.

And actually one of my goals for my system is for me to be able to listen to ANY track and have this enticing, hear into the music and get sucked in regardless of the source, as in, it's music, not just sounds.
This distinction means I have one playback setup that does it all regardless of source.

Which also further implies that the signal I hear is the signal supplied to the system without being aberrantly limited nor changed.

This is a tall order as these traits are not on most manufacturers list of desirable engineering design goals, let alone are attainable in the first place.

So when I can hear albums that historically have been difficult to hear into, and then music (vs just sounds) happens, well it certainly tells me I'm moving in the right direction.

Fer shure man…
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Fer shure man…
> hahahahahahahahahahahaha



I see what you did there.     I'm a Koetsu man myself, but personal preference always reigns supreme.


----------



## johnjen

The Koetsu's I've heard (and it was many years back) were divine and very musical.
They were a tad difficult (at the time) to really dial in what with the resistance and capacitance tweaking needed to get them to fully sing.
But that was then and this is now, where such 'adjustments' are accommodated much more readily.

But I'm all digital and while I might crank up the old vinyl system it will be a while yet, and by that time the available cartridges will undoubtedly be very different than what is available now.
And my collection of vinyl just sits there patiently waiting to get spun up yet again.

And I figure if I can get the digits to approach the analog then the analog should be glorious…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

And speaking of analog…

The Purp-Amp has received new DHT Filament regulators and, well, it's like this ya see…

Those 2 previous mods made changes that have been Bigly 'emphasized' and the new boards are still settling in.

The bass has also stepped right up to the bar as well.
It has deepened (more extension below 20Hz), become more powerful (greater impact) and has more resolution, focus, and texture.  

So after a 'suitable' amount of time has elapsed, aka settling in time, I'll replace the 2 'suspect' CCS's and see what happens then.

But for now I think I'll kick back and just get to know my music, as if new, yet again…    

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> The Koetsu's I've heard (and it was many years back) were divine and very musical.
> They were a tad difficult (at the time) to really dial in what with the resistance and capacitance tweaking needed to get them to fully sing.
> But that was then and this is now, where such 'adjustments' are accommodated much more readily.
> 
> ...



9K for a phono cartridge? That makes reel to reel look reasonable.


----------



## johnjen

And $9K is no where near the top of the price heap.
Talk about stupid silly $$$$$…

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> And $9K is no where near the top of the price heap.
> Talk about stupid silly $$$$$…
> 
> JJ



Is this a stream of consciousness thing, and all the rest of us are still standing on shore?


----------



## johnjen

MAYBE…   hahahahahahahahahahahaha   

Either that or the water is rising in the stream, sorta like the frog in the pot sorta thing…
hahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Aug 31, 2020)

So as a progress report of sorts, what with me being in the middle of several mods and tweak evaluations all at the same time…

The new filament regulators are settling in VERY nicely, and to the net effect that I can hear the CCS's (Constant Current Source's) popping, clicking, ticking, and zip-zapping away in the back ground all that much easier and with greater resolution and detail.

This of course has spurned me on to replace them with new updated higher voltage versions to determine if it actually is the CCS's or something else in the circuit.
I suspect the CCS's mostly because they were previously used in other circuits and the FETs are probably damaged just enough to make noise, but not enough to die a tell tale death, and so, out themselves (literally and figuratively).

One channel (L) is especially noisy, but in between the pops etc, the music is enticing and engaging and to the extent that I simply have to move ahead with this replacement mod well ahead of schedule.

Massed/solo strings are simply marvelous, horns have that horn zing that all to often gets obscured, and the bass, it is simply even more stunning, more *you are there* real.
I could go on and on but suffice it to say I hope to have the new CCS's built and installed by Wed or Thurs this next week, I just need more of the newer 900v rated FETs to show up.

So as long as I can 'tolerate' the noisy L ch I will continue to listen and enjoy this marvelous amp and look forward to what will happen to the SQ after the CCS's are replaced.

Forward into the (seemingly) unknown, I fearlessly go…
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 4, 2020)

So it went like this…
I went with all new 900Vdc MosFETS for the L channel that drives the 6BQ7A & 71A tube, since it was the 'problem child'.

WTH?? 400vdc WHAT??  shutdown…
grrrr…

re-do the do…
What!!! 40vdc WHAT???  shutdown…ffsffsffsffs…
Did I blow a tube????  

Go back to the 400vdc rated MosFET on the 'output' MosFET
Now THAT'S more like it…  
And after a few more tweaks to dial everything in…
The SQ is fine and the snap-crackle-pop didn't occur,
so far…  

Now on day 2, to see what happens…
And I figure I'll need to do the same for the right channel, ya know just to keep peace in the family so the R channel doesn't start complaining.
hahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So along the way from back there (last post) to here my Allen Bradley 1w 270Ω resistors showed up and  I was hoping they had 'aged' enough to now be 300Ω resistors.
Not quite, but I did get a pair of 290Ω's, which are now settling in on the 6BQ7A cathode circuit, and I must say they are settling in quite nicely at that.
And I figure that they will climb into the low 300's, right about where I want them to sit.  

And like my other tweaks it does take a few thermal cycles and subsequent adjustments to dial everything back in so this SQ ✔ is a bit early on in the eval process.
Even so this is yet another +SQ check box filled with an X.
Thus far everything (all of my usual SQ attributes) have taken another small but noticeable and very welcome step up, again.
Soundstage, freq extension, dynamics, focus, inner details, etc, etc.

Yeah my heads on a swivel with corresponding danc'n in my chair moves to match.
Not to forget the happy feet under the desk.

And the best is ALL the music I play has risen in SQ, and it doesn't matter the genre or type or era etc.

Just like I like.   

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So the battle of the bands, er CCS's, has been raging with interesting results as we try different configurations and FET's in different configurations.

Right now as I type this I've just updated the primary bias adjustment CCS's, which sets the bias for both the driver and output tubes, using dual Supertex DN2540 DMOS FET's instead of using the 900v IXCP10M90S as the 'input' FET, and a 2540 as the 'output' FET.

Translated that means using the 2540's 'back to back' works better than mixing different FET's.
As long as the B+ is under ≈ 450VDC

The last experiment resulted in a very slow to reach full voltage and current setup, while this new approach has cut the 'settling time' down to ≈ 15-30minutes, down from 1-2 hours. 

And so far it seems more stable and more 'linear', both of which are good signs.
But as usual it will take a few thermal cycles to see how well it all settles down, and then evaluate the results.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 18, 2020)

Well, one thing is for sure…
Wholey frak'n fuster cluck the SQ has, yet again, taken a Mutha May I, GIANT step up.

The bass has become even deeper, more thunderous with even greater inner detail, focus and *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact).
To the point that I'm now hearing portions of the bass I have NEVER heard before, like air handling system grumble and subsonic rattling of my head and in tracks I didn't even know this was even possible before.

And in those tracks where I know there's the GUD stuff WAY down there…
There is now an added compressive impact component, and it extends upwards and can be heard from horns and strings…

I figure this is where 'the whole is greater than the sum of the parts' thing is happening, due to all of the new regulator boards and a few Allen Bradley resistors settling in as well.
The mids are 'rich' as are the tinkles on top.
All of the nifty aspects that I so treasure in the mids are just *'Better'*.
The top end has effortless power AND finesse and definition and focus.

EVERYTHING from the top to below the bottom, just upped their game.

And here I thought I knew what good solid detailed bass was all about.  
Haaa… that'll teach me…  

AND it will change still more as the number of thermal cycles rises, as per usual.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Well, one thing is for sure…
> Wholey frak'n fuster cluck the SQ has, yet again, taken a Mutha May I, GIANT step up.
> 
> The bass has become even deeper, more thunderous with even greater inner detail, focus and *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact).
> ...



Well it sounds like it's time for you to send the amp to me so that I can confirm your findings. No charge, of course.


----------



## johnjen (Sep 19, 2020)

Why how magnanimous of you,   I must be truly fortunate to be the recipient of such largess, and to think this isn't even a 300B amp, but a lowly 71A amp with an output power of a paltry 0.75w/ch.

But alas I must decline such a generous offer of your time and technical expertise.
Mostly because I'm now in the middle of yet another set of circuit refinements, which of course will take yet another all new set of thermal cycle testing and evaluation procedures.
And of course this procedural clock simply MUST be reset after every subsequent alteration and circuit change thereafter.

After all, SQ evaluation and circuit stability should never be besmirched by unanticipated electrical fires nor unseeming explosions…  
Bad form and all that…   
hahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Why how magnanimous of you,   I must be truly fortunate to be the recipient of such largess, and to think this isn't even a 300B amp, but a lowly 71A amp with an output power of a paltry 0.75w/ch.
> 
> But alas I must decline such a generous offer of your time and technical expertise.
> Mostly because I'm now in the middle of yet another set of circuit refinements, which of course will take yet another all new set of thermal cycle testing and evaluation procedures.
> ...



LOL!       Your unwavering concern for my safety is duly noted and appreciated.


----------



## johnjen

This is where I get to use one of my favorite come back lines.


"It's the Least I can do…"

hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Hey, Im working on a nut job phono stage. I don't really have a TT right now, so I will need people to test it : P


----------



## johnjen

I have one of those TT things (which is fully accessorized) safely stored inside it's cabinet in the back.
Which is also where I keep my records.

So all I have to do is figure a way to bring the signal out to the main room…
Just one of those pesky details…

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I have one of those TT things (which is fully accessorized) safely stored inside it's cabinet in the back.
> Which is also where I keep my records.
> 
> So all I have to do is figure a way to bring the signal out to the main room…
> ...


----------



## johnjen

That cable has the wrong ethnicity.

For long runs it has to be balanced don't cha know…

hahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> That cable has the wrong ethnicity.
> 
> For long runs it has to be balanced don't cha know…
> 
> ...



  

I tried some like that before but couldn't get them to stay on the RCA jacks of my phono stage, even with lots of duct tape.  Probably user error.


----------



## johnjen

You probably were using old duktape, where the stick got unstuck…
hahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> You probably were using old duktape, where the stick got unstuck…
> hahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> JJ



 Dang it! I paid no attention to the "Best If Used By" date. Does superglue have an expiration date, I mean as long as it's still in a somewhat liquid form?


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Does superglue have an expiration date, I mean as long as it's still in a somewhat liquid form?


As long as you can still drink it - that would still kill covid-19   
(we need emoji of old dude with big orange hair..........)


----------



## johnjen (Sep 23, 2020)

Okey Dokey yessirrreeee.

I'm listening to the Telarc cd of Straussfest wherein are well recorded percussive examples of shotguns, revolvers and assorted other 'hard hitting' sounds.

It's most impressive when I can hear the entire room contribute to the whump when the shotgun goes off.
Or what happens when the 6' drum gets thumped then smacked, hard.

So when the entire acoustic space gets 'energized' it then helps 'shape'/roundout the harmonic content of the acoustic pressure wave that is heard.
Very satisfying I must say.

Evaluating the rest of the bandwidth will need to occur later when things quiet down a tad more.

Suffice to say these seemingly insignificant minor tweaks/changes are yielding positive SQ improvements WAY above their pay grade.
I mean going from 350 to 330 to 290Ω resistors for the cathode loads for the driver tube shouldn't be all that big of a deal, yet this experiemnt has shown me otherwise.  And granted it is a key component in the signal path, and I am using some tweako Allen Bradley resistors, even so this is 'hitting a lick' so to speak.

Which yet further supports my theory that as *CP's* (Choke Points) are removed,  the fewer that remain become far more significant in terms of SQ.
And I figure it's because there is that much less of the circuit that is 'in it's own way'.

More later…
JJ


----------



## johnjen (Sep 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Dang it! I paid no attention to the "Best If Used By" date. Does superglue have an expiration date, I mean as long as it's still in a somewhat liquid form?


SuperGlue is REALLY good at gluing skin and tissue of all sorts, together.
They used it in the Vietnam war to 'close up' wounds (chest cavity, etc.) and it probably saved many lives.

And yes it does have a "Best If Used By" date, but I have kept my supply in the fridge for years and years and it still manages to glue my fingers together all too well.      hahahahahahaahahaha

But once you find that the connector is more firmly attached to your fingers than the preamp, and no matter how much more SuperGlue you add, it doesn't seem to get any better, then you know you took a wrong turn somewhere.  uh-oh!!! 
And then when the SuperGlue squeeze tube or bottle gets stuck to your other hand, THAT'S when you know you're in trouble, because then you can't even turn up the volume to listen to tunes. (honey can you bring me a knife?) 

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> SuperGlue is REALLY good at gluing skin and tissue of all sorts, together.
> They used it in the Vietnam war to 'close up' wounds (chest cavity, etc.) and it probably saved many lives.
> 
> And yes it does have a "Best If Used By" date, but I have kept my supply in the fridge for years and years and it still manages to glue my fingers together all too well.      hahahahahahaahahaha
> ...



But wait...if you glue your finger(s) in the right spot, it will complete the circuit.  Skin is conductive, right?  And besides, beyond audio tweaking and tuning what possible use is there for fingers anyway? Volume can be turned up with the remote and one of your toes, which is pretty much all _they're _good for.


----------



## johnjen (Sep 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> But wait...if you glue your finger(s) in the right spot, it will complete the circuit.  Skin is conductive, right?  And besides, beyond audio tweaking and tuning what possible use is there for fingers anyway? Volume can be turned up with the remote and one of your toes, which is pretty much all _they're _good for.


"if you glue your finger(s) in the right spot"
That's a Big IF right there, mostly because when panic sets in that's when you realize things aren't going quite as expected and it's then that your fingers tend to flail around, well you get the idea…  

And yeah when the fingers AND toes 'complete the circuit' well that's when you can FEEL the music as it courses thru your body in a sort of spasmodic way, while leaving a lasting impression…
hahahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## A2029

johnjen said:


> So the battle of the bands, er CCS's, has been raging with interesting results as we try different configurations and FET's in different configurations.
> 
> Right now as I type this I've just updated the primary bias adjustment CCS's, which sets the bias for both the driver and output tubes, using dual Supertex DN2540 DMOS FET's instead of using the 900v IXCP10M90S as the 'input' FET, and a 2540 as the 'output' FET.
> 
> ...



Give a try to a IXTP01N100D as the top device, those are really nice (but very expensive) depletion mosfets for that position. For the bottom device, give a try to the DN2540, IXTP01N100D, or even a BSS159 (best stats), in combo with the IXTP01N100D as the top.


----------



## johnjen

COOL!!!!   

Thanks for those suggestions, we'll look into them and I'll try those various combinations.

The DN2540 does seem to work well in both positions, at least for now, but the B+ feeding onto the CCS is ≈450VDC which is pushing the envelope a tad, so the longevity of that top DMOS FET may be a 'problem' in the long run.

MOAR EXPERIMENTS!!!!  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So unless I'm missing something the BSS159 is rated for 60vdc so it would be a source of smoke and perhaps a sharp retort at turn on…  
hahahahahahahahahaha     

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel (Sep 30, 2020)

johnjen said:


> So unless I'm missing something the BSS159 is rated for 60vdc so it would be a source of smoke and perhaps a sharp retort at turn on…
> hahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> JJ



You would only use it as the bottom device or in a really low voltage tube amp.

Remember that 90+ percent of the voltage drop from B+ down to plate voltage happens on the top device. The bottom device is only seeing a handful of volts (somewhere in the single digits to mid teens) which is why the capacitance of the bottom device is always such a problem. The smaller the voltage drop across a mosfet is, the larger it's apparent gate capacitance is.

The easiest way to think about it is that the bottom device is really only acting as a gain multiplier.


----------



## johnjen (Sep 30, 2020)

So using different words, the 'input' FET knocks the B+ voltage down to 'useable' levels, and the lower 'output' FET supplies the desired current which in turn dials in the voltage for the load (in this case the plate).

But it seems to me that using the BSS159 would still let the magic smoke out during the turn on surge, where the CCS output voltage swings from ≈40vdc to 400+vdc across the output tube, on it's way to the 170vdc target voltage, albeit the peak HV spikes are fairly short in duration.

And I still have to wonder if the rather small amount of current these devices are being used at, is a 'cause' of instability or 'non-linear' behavior just in and of itself, especially in a operationally dynamic 'complex(LRC)' audio circuit.  

Just passing thoughts that rattle around in my head…   

JJ


----------



## A2029

johnjen said:


> So using different words, the 'input' FET knocks the B+ voltage down to 'useable' levels, and the lower 'output' FET supplies the desired current which in turn dials in the voltage for the load (in this case the plate).
> 
> But it seems to me that using the BSS159 would still let the magic smoke out during the turn on surge, where the CCS output voltage swings from ≈40vdc to 400+vdc across the output tube, on it's way to the 170vdc target voltage, albeit the peak HV spikes are fairly short in duration.
> 
> ...



The bottom device in a CCS cascode will only see 1-5 volts during typical operation. The top FET will drop the B+ voltage down to a voltage approx 1-5V higher than what will be seen at the source of the bottom device. How do you know how many volts will appear across the bottom FET? The bottom FET sets the current, and the voltage that the top device develops across it is determined by the "output characteristics" graph for that particular top mosfet. So say you have the BSS159 as the bottom device and set the source resistor on the BSS159 such that it sets the current at 10mA, and you use the IXTP01N100D as the top device (output characteristics graph below), that means that to have 10mA flowing through the IXTP01N100D it has to develop a voltage of approx 2.1V across the BSS159 (2.1V from the BSS159 drain to source). This 2.1V is the *gate-to-source voltage (on the IXTP01N100D)* necessary for the IXTP01N100D to maintain the 10mA.






So you may ask: how does the bottom device set the voltage at the anode of the tube? The bottom device essentially just lets the voltage of the tube rise up to the point that there is the 10mA flowing across it (or whatever current you set).

If you scour a bunch of datasheets for all the available depletion mode mosfets and find their capacitance at 2.1V drain-to-source, the BSS159 is one of the lowest you will find that is capable of supplying large amounts of current (up to 80+mA). There are some depletion FETs with even lower capacitance for very low currents under 2mA (such as the LND150). Unfortunately the BSS159 is only in SOT-23 package, so you have to deal with the SMD component mounting, but it's otherwise a very good device stat wise.


----------



## A2029

Six IXTP01N100D in a CCS. Theoretical PSRR of 400dB (never achievable in the real world). LOL!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So using different words, the 'input' FET knocks the B+ voltage down to 'useable' levels, and the lower 'output' FET supplies the desired current which in turn dials in the voltage for the load (in this case the plate).
> 
> But it seems to me that using the BSS159 would still let the magic smoke out during the turn on surge, where the CCS output voltage swings from ≈40vdc to 400+vdc across the output tube, on it's way to the 170vdc target voltage, albeit the peak HV spikes are fairly short in duration.
> 
> ...



It really shouldn't affect the bottom fet. Im sure there is some odd ball scenario where the turn on surge would kill the bottom fet, but I would have to imagine that what ever would kill the bottom fet would have to kill the top fet first.


----------



## A2029

FETs also have a built in source-drain diode for short term reverse voltage protection:


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

@A2029

Just so you have a clearer picture of what is going on, here is the schematic. It started off as a fairly simple build, but became sort of a Frankenstein build. 

This is the response of the voltage on the 71a plate inside of LTspice. Somehow what john is experiencing is the inverse of this graph. In real life the voltage starts off very low and gradually builds up over 30min to an hour. Very strange. 

As John has pointed out, we have already tried a number of different CCS solutions. Nothing seems to help.


----------



## A2029

Tjj226 Angel said:


> @A2029
> 
> Just so you have a clearer picture of what is going on, here is the schematic. It started off as a fairly simple build, but became sort of a Frankenstein build.
> 
> ...



Thanks Tjj226, I hadn't really been following this thread closely, but when I saw the post on CCS rolling I jumped in. This gives much better background. Can you send me the .asc file for this sim?

@johnjen Where are you measuring the voltage rise over time?  Plate? How much does the voltage rise over time? Where does it start, where does it end? Does it ever stabilize at a certain voltage?

Sorry if these were answered previously, just not sure how many pages back in the thread to go


----------



## johnjen

Thanks, A2029!
That detailed explanation of the inner workings of these CCS's is most helpful.
That helps me (and I would assume others) understand what and where the voltages are located inside the CCS and tells me why the 'output' FET runs cool and the 'input' FET HAS to use a heat sink, mostly due to the voltage drop each FET deals with.

I caught that the "BSS159 is only in SOT-23 package" and thought that I could most likely 'adapt' a perf board and 'make it work', one way or another.
But I may have to pay close attention to the pad size and spacing etc, so that they match up, more or less.

And now to commence with even more head scratching…  
hahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

A2029 said:


> Thanks Tjj226, I hadn't really been following this thread closely, but when I saw the post on CCS rolling I jumped in. This gives much better background. Can you send me the .asc file for this sim?
> 
> @johnjen Where are you measuring the voltage rise over time?  Plate? How much does the voltage rise over time? Where does it start, where does it end? Does it ever stabilize at a certain voltage?
> 
> Sorry if these were answered previously, just not sure how many pages back in the thread to go



Pmed you with the .asc file. 

Hopefully John will reply with a more a more detailed response about what is going on than what I can tell you. I built this amp for John a while ago, but we have been playing around with modifications and other experiments. We live in different states, so this process has been a long game of telephone. 

The good news is that the CCS actually does provide a big sonic improvement over the choke we had in there originally. Bad news is it may or may not be causing this voltage instability issue. 

Its also worth pointing out that at this point the 71a amp is more of a research project to find out what does and doesn't work. The main goal is to see how well we can control the audio path. It's not like we are under the gun to fix this amp like we would be if this were johns only amp. But it sure would be nice to figure out what in the schiit is going on : P


----------



## johnjen (Oct 1, 2020)

A2029 said:


> @johnjen Where are you measuring the voltage rise over time?  Plate? How much does the voltage rise over time? Where does it start, where does it end? Does it ever stabilize at a certain voltage?
> 
> Sorry if these were answered previously, just not sure how many pages back in the thread to go


When power is turned on the voltage rises quickly (1-2 seconds) to 400+ volts, then drops down to ≈ 250vdc, and hangs for ≈ 1 second.
It then drops down to ≈ 40vdc and sorta quickly rises to ≈ 120-30 volts within ≈ 30sec after startup.
From there it continues to even more slowly rise to the peak of 170vdc after 1-2 hrs where it 'stabilizes' with a swing of ±5vdc.

These voltages are across the tube (plate to cathode).

The odd thing is I did try to use the IXCP10M90S as the input and output FET and it didn't work at all, as in it went completely sideways.
When I changed to using the 2540 as the output FET it went back to 'normal' operation.

Currently I'm back to using dual 2540's as both the input and output FETs.

Thanks for your curiosity and looking into all of this.

Oh and there is a minor difference between the above schematic and the 'as built' in that there are 1KΩ resistors (not the 330Ω as listed in the schematic below) so no direct connections for where R2/R6 & R5/R7 are used as shown above.
And no 1Ω current sense resistors (R3) used in my CCS's either.


ps Oh and the SQ is stunning as in it fully captures my attention and won't let go.
I mention this because despite it's 'faults' etc it delivers an acoustic presence that is simply captivating.

JJ


----------



## A2029 (Oct 1, 2020)

johnjen said:


> When power is turned on the voltage rises quickly (1-2 seconds) to 400+ volts, then drops down to ≈ 250vdc, and hangs for ≈ 1 second.
> It then drops down to ≈ 40vdc and sorta quickly rises to ≈ 120-30 volts within ≈ 30sec after startup.
> From there it continues to even more slowly rise to the peak of 170vdc after 1-2 hrs where it 'stabilizes' with a swing of ±5vdc.



Ah, okay, I believe this all makes sense.

Let's look at the 6BQ7A tube first: When you power up, the heater is cold, and the cathode is cold, so no emission from the cathode. For the CCS above this tube, the bottom FET essentially just keeps letting the voltage rise as it is trying to source the current from the tube. But no amount of voltage will get that current from a cold tube, so the voltage on the plate of the 6BQ7A will likely rise up to near the B+ voltage on turn on.

Same thing happens on the 71A tube, the cathode is cold so there is no emission as the CCS tries to pull ~20mA from the tube. The CCS keeps raising the voltage more and more as it attempts to source its 20mA. This will peg the voltage at 400+ volts at the start. As the 71A heats up, it starts to conduct, which means that the bottom FET drops the voltage down to 250v as that is the voltage pulling 20mA through the tube. As the cathode of the 71A heats more its cathode emission increases sharply. The voltage on the 71A grid may still be very elevated if the 6BQ7A is slower to reach its threshold heat for high emission (i.e. the voltage on the plate of the 6BQ7A will only come down when there is enough emission from the 6BQ7A cathode in order to pull the bias current at a lower plate voltage). For the 71A with a grid that is positive respective of the cathode, the CCS over the 71A drops the voltage way down to 40v as that is all that it takes to source 20mA from the tube with a high grid voltage that hasn't settled.

It is shortly after this point that the 6BQ7A really starts to increase its cathode emission. As it increases its cathode emission, the voltage at the 6BQ7A plate drops as there is less voltage required to pull the bias current through the 6BQ7A tube. The plate voltage drop of the 6BQ7A means that the grid voltage of the 71A is also dropping. As it drops, the CCS above the 71A needs to increase the 71A plate voltage from the low 40v's in order to pull the 20mA from the tube. The voltage then quickly rises to 120-130v.

The continuation of the rise to 170V across the 71A is a result of the 6BQ7A slowly continuing to increase in emission from its cathode over time, and as it does so the 6BQ7A plate voltage will slowly fall as less voltage at the 6BQ7A plate is needed in order to pull the bias current. Slowly reducing 71A grid voltage means slowly increasing 71A plate voltage in order to continue pulling the 20mA through the tube.


Hope that all makes sense. So all in all nothing to worry about imo. The only concerns would be in making sure that the grid to cathode max voltage doesn't get exceeded at any point for the 71A if there is one (I haven't looked) as there is likely 400V between the grid and cathode at first turn on. You've run the amp tho and no sparks so I believe you should be good. Just a matter of letting the amp warm up for a couple of hours, then dialing in your voltages to wherever you want them, and you should be good to go.


----------



## johnjen

Yes that all makes sense to me.
And the max voltage across the 71A is rated at 180vdc so it is pushed for a bit at startup.
So a HV turn on delay circuit would get the heaters 'up to snuff' 1st and then when things are closer to toasty add the HV for far less over voltage during the startup sequence.

Your analysis is very helpful and gives me a solution to try and see what would happen under more 'controlled' conditions.

Thanks for your insights and help with this, now onto the MOAR Experiments stage…
hahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Hmmm. Very interesting take indeed.

I knew the initial voltage spike was due to the fact that the tubes don't turn on right away.

I wasn't really all that concerned about what the voltage was doing within the first 30ish seconds of turning on. What I WAS worried about was the fact that the voltage seemed to settle really low for about the first few minutes and creeped up over hours.

But what you are saying about the 6bq7a makes a lot of sense. In a circuit like this, a couple volts difference on the plate could make a huge difference in the plate voltage.

I just would have figured that the 6bq7a would have settled to its stable operating voltage within a couple minutes. Not an hour.

Hmmmmmmm......gonna have to think of a clever solution to this one. I know I can use a gyrator load, but I feel like that defeats the purpose of direct coupling because it adds a capacitor in the audio path.


----------



## johnjen

So the CCS's 'battle of the FETs' continues with another new combination, which are inbound and should be in place and initially dialed in mid to late next week.

This time thanks to A2029's help, insights, and suggestions, we are going to try the IXTP01N100D and J111-D26Z combination with the 1KV DMOS FET on top as the input device and the J111 N Channel JFET as the bottom, output device.

We'll see what happens after I swap all 4 of the CCS's for this next generation of CCS experiments.
We're not sure it will make the warm up time any faster but some of the other 'symptoms', should noticeably improve, and we're thinking the SQ as well.

And I'm thinking I may just go 'old school' with a manual switch to delay the HV B+ turn on.
It's WAY cheaper than a delay circuit AND it will allow the filaments to remain powered up completely independently of the HV B+ portion of the power supply.
Which should help the tubes extend their life due to fewer turn on/off cycles and surges.

ONWARD thru the fog…
Hahahahahahahahahahaha 

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Oct 10, 2020)

The Battle of the FETs continues as this latest iteration settles in.
It took me 2 days to implement this latest change as the 1st pass was less than expected.
But such is exploring the edges of the envelope, sometimes.

I 1st tried the IXTP01N100D and J111-D26Z combination which had foibles enough so that I swapped out the J111-D26Z for the old standby the DN2540 as the output device which is working out rather nicely at this point.

But i only have a few hrs on this implementation and several more thermal cycles and subsequent tweaks before I eval this tweak.

Even so the top end seems to have a bit more energy, more zizz and sizzle if you will.
It's not like a huge change but there is now an added bit of 'air' to every *'voice' *regardless of what type it is.
It's kind of interesting that even instruments such as bass guitar, even drums etc.

More later after a few more hrs. of run time.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> The Battle of the FETs continues as this latest iteration settles in.
> It took me 2 days to implement this latest change as the 1st pass was less than expected.
> But such is exploring the edges of the envelope, sometimes.
> 
> ...


Yep, I listen to a lot of bass in acoustic trios and quartets (we just lost a great one, Gary Peacock) and it definitely can have “sharp edges” (snapping against the fingerboard) as well as the warm, round fundamental.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 10, 2020)

It also sounds like the rise time of the smaller signals like the fingerboard 'snap' as well as the 'zubb' when the fingers run up and down the strings, has stepped up it's game and the leading edge of the attacks have become more pronounced as well.

All the more REAL…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Now that I'm approaching ≈ 10hrs of operation after this latest CCS mod, the SQ is now revealing what differences this mod brings to the table.

A veil has lifted.
Not a big thick heavy veil, but a more subtle one.
It's absence has revealed a new deeper level of inner focus and detail.
But more importantly, all of my usual descriptors have taken yet another mass migration up the SQ ladder.

Thus far the most notable are *I5* (Intelligibility), *REALNESS*, *C3* (Cohesion Coherence Coupling) *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor), *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic  Impact) and a few others…

It's almost like each sound begins and ends before even before even being noticed that they had started.
It is beyond simply a slew rate increase.

And it's not a FR expansion so much as it's a sense that the music is 'closer' but not like the instruments have been moved closer, rather it's like hearing INTO all the instruments to even deeper level.
The staging placement remains the same in terms of location and depth, but now there is more there, there.

Or put another way, a veil has been dropped, like when I removed the 'dust guards' which covered the HD 800's drivers, and a veil dropped then as well.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So 1st off, a sufficiently SuperSized thank you to A2029 for the recommendation of the IXTP01N100D FET.
The overall SQ has reached new heights, and just before one of our latest generation of CCS's (gracefully) died, it was pushing the SQ bar to new heights, yet again.

The veil that had been lifted, that I mentioned above, was noticeably 'thicker'.
The SQ took a substantial, NOT so subtle, step up, everywhere (top to bottom), and impressively so.

So I've re-started the clock on settling in time and in ≈ 2 days time I figure I'll hit that new SQ pinnacle again as the repair involved installing new FET's on one of the CCS's.

And yet another tweak is inbound as we try alternative input xfmrs to see what will happen.
AND there are yet further circuit refinements in the works, which should provide additional SQ changes as well.

But thus far, especially with this generation of CCS's, the SQ has yet again redefined what constitutes a 'satisfying musical experience'.
Just like, I like.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

I just picked up a Darkvoice 336SE, not because I needed another amp but because Drop was doing a run of them for $200. Yes, I'm always attracted to cheap.  And I wanted something to play with.  

Currently there's only a 100k resistor employed for the 6SN7 cathode bias.  Some guys have added cap bypasses (which honestly _should_ be there in conjunction with a resistor), some guys have snipped out the resistor and popped in an LED. I'd like to go one step better with a couple CCS's, but I'm not edumacated enough to know what I need to put in there.  Any pointers?  

And @johnjen I certainly don't mean to hijack your thread...if you'd prefer I go to PM with this just say so please.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> I just picked up a Darkvoice 336SE, not because I needed another amp but because Drop was doing a run of them for $200. Yes, I'm always attracted to cheap.  And I wanted something to play with.
> 
> Currently there's only a 100k resistor employed for the 6SN7 cathode bias.  Some guys have added cap bypasses (which honestly _should_ be there in conjunction with a resistor), some guys have snipped out the resistor and popped in an LED. I'd like to go one step better with a couple CCS's, but I'm not edumacated enough to know what I need to put in there.  Any pointers?
> 
> And @johnjen I certainly don't mean to hijack your thread...if you'd prefer I go to PM with this just say so please.



Are you able to measure the B+ voltage on the plate of the 6080? It should be 150v, but IDK. I just want to make sure we have enough voltage headroom before I start sending you down rabbit holes.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Are you able to measure the B+ voltage on the plate of the 6080? It should be 150v, but IDK. I just want to make sure we have enough voltage headroom before I start sending you down rabbit holes.



132v.  Fortunately both plates read identically, but not at 150v.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> 132v.  Fortunately both plates read identically, but not at 150v.




Hmmmm? Well that's no bueno. Could you measure the voltage from the 6080 grid to ground and the 6080 cathode to ground? 

And if it isn't clear why I am having you measure the 6080 when you want to add a CCS to the 6sn7, it is because the 6SN7 is directly coupled to the 6080. That means what ever changes we make to the 6SN7 has to result in a very similar output voltage so that we don't risk burning anything up.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Hmmmm? Well that's no bueno. Could you measure the voltage from the 6080 grid to ground and the 6080 cathode to ground?
> 
> And if it isn't clear why I am having you measure the 6080 when you want to add a CCS to the 6sn7, it is because the 6SN7 is directly coupled to the 6080. That means what ever changes we make to the 6SN7 has to result in a very similar output voltage so that we don't risk burning anything up.



Grid to ground: 70v
Cathode to ground: 80v

Thanks!


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> snip
> And @johnjen I certainly don't mean to hijack your thread...if you'd prefer I go to PM with this just say so please.


No worries, as I always intended this thread to be for those of the DIY persuasion to ask and get help of any sort…


JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Grid to ground: 70v
> Cathode to ground: 80v
> 
> Thanks!



Alright, give me a few minutes and I will have a couple options for you. 

This gives me a nice break up from working on the 124 amp and my transformer winder.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Alright, give me a few minutes and I will have a couple options for you.
> 
> This gives me a nice break up from working on the 124 amp and my transformer winder.



Thanks!  Greatly appreciated!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  Greatly appreciated!



John informs me that this amp has way too much gain for you. Please understand that using a CCS on the 6SN7 is going to significantly RAISE the gain. This amp will basically have an input sensitivity of half a volt peak to peak or less than 0.25v rms. 

I would probably add in a voltage divider on the input to the amp to lower the volume. At this point the ccs is really only helping with noise and cross talk. The big improvement to be made is the output capacitor. I believe the stock output cap is only 30uf. This is way too small. I would bump it up to 100uf at least. In the schematic below I have 300uf and the phase shift still isn't all that great. As you can see its 15 degrees off at 20hz. With the stock cap in the simulation it is closer to 50 degrees off.


----------



## johnjen

Ok so I lied, but only sorta…    

Today as I type this the SQ is almost on par with what I heard yesterday before the the first case of component infant mortality I've had in decades, which required new FETS to replace the 2 that 'died'.
And there are hrs yet to go before shut down tonight.

And I have a single word that describes what the 'NOT subtle', as in at all, lifting of the unsuspected veil (but aren't they all?) has resulted in.
*Immersive*. 
It's a close cousin to *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) where the music surrounds me with precision in 4d space (3d location and thru time).

The bigly difference between *Immersive* and CNST is, I'm IN the music, as I hear more of it's inner structure and the 'fabric' of the harmonics and it's acoustic presence, as there is less of the created acoustic pressure wave which _was_ out of synch with its true waveform shape.
Thus less of this acoustic waveform is smeared in and thru time, and thus more acoustic energy is 'concentrated' properly in the now as the music plays in that ongoing 4th dimension.

IOW, Since the acoustic waveform is more 'concentrated', there is better coupling of the driver to the air, to re-create the original waveform, for me to hear deeper and with greater focus and definition into the all of the individual 'voices' and the music as a whole.

I've finally reached a point where I have a reference of such an alluring nature, that I can use it to compare it to the aspiring upcoming amps, and try other circuit combinations to selected portions of this amp.
Like the input xfmrs.

And perhaps I'll haul out my set of HD700's and see about fussing with them and take the info I've learned about improving the 800's and apply it to the 700's.
Just to see what happens, 'cause I think the 700's are vastly underrated what with the same reputation of those hi-freq peaks as the 800's.
But if I can dial back the overshoot just a smidge, I figure they could be 'a contendah'.

JJ
ps during the course of writing this post the SQ has risen still further and now is about on par with just before the amp went sideways, which is a quicker recovery than I expected for the SQ to return, and of course there is tomorrow to push the bar still higher yet.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> John informs me that this amp has way too much gain for you. Please understand that using a CCS on the 6SN7 is going to significantly RAISE the gain. This amp will basically have an input sensitivity of half a volt peak to peak or less than 0.25v rms.
> 
> I would probably add in a voltage divider on the input to the amp to lower the volume. At this point the ccs is really only helping with noise and cross talk. The big improvement to be made is the output capacitor. I believe the stock output cap is only 30uf. This is way too small. I would bump it up to 100uf at least. In the schematic below I have 300uf and the phase shift still isn't all that great. As you can see its 15 degrees off at 20hz. With the stock cap in the simulation it is closer to 50 degrees off.



Thanks very much for taking a look at this. Really appreciated.  You are correct on both the gain issue and the 30 uF output capacitance -- there are three 10 uF caps/channel that appear to be film. As you can see there's not a lot of room in there as it currently sits, so getting 100 uF (or more) of film caps in there isn't going to be easy if it's possible at all (but I haven't really looked to see what's currently available either).  I think what I need to do next is get the volume pot swapped out and see if that helps with the gain issue. I have an Alps to put in, and it probably goes without saying that the pot that's in there isn't much to speak of in a $200 retail amp.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 14, 2020)

So today my experiment with new input xfmrs will commence later this evening, after the amp gets another operational thermal cycle.
Mostly to see what happened to the SQ before the new parts go in.

Yep more fun…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> snip
> I think what I need to do next is get the volume pot swapped out and see if that helps with the gain issue. I have an Alps to put in, and it probably goes without saying that the pot that's in there isn't much to speak of in a $200 retail amp.


Just an additional note about that volume pot.
You already have a 200KΩ pot (according to the schematic) and changing it to a lower Ω one isn't going to help.
And finding a higher value pot might help but you really should to go with the voltage divider that Tjj mentioned in his previous post.

And while a better quality pot is a good idea, the voltage divider will lower the input signal level so the pot will be usable in it's sweet spot (9-3)…
And it would be WAY easier to implement since it only involves 2 resistors, or you could add a stereo pot and 'dial in' the amount of signal attenuation and then just leave it alone.

The other 'option' would be to lower the overall gain of the amp, which is a MUCH more involved process and kinda asks the question of why, based on the complexity of trying to improve a $200 amp.

Just a passing thought or 2.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Just an additional note about that volume pot.
> You already have a 200KΩ pot (according to the schematic) and changing it to a lower Ω one isn't going to help.
> And finding a higher value pot might help but you really should to go with the voltage divider that Tjj mentioned in his previous post.
> 
> ...



200k?  Do you mean 100k x 2?  If so, cool.  If not, you're confusing me (which isn't hard).  

Changing the volume pot will require a little more, um, _balls_ than I originally thought.   What's in there has an 8 pin connection so I can't use the existing circuit board as the Alps has 6 pins and the spacing wouldn't line up even if the pin assignment did. I'll have to don my big boy pants and solder the wires directly to the Alps pins. And I'm a bit mystified with the readings I get on the existing pot. Pins 1, 3 and 4 are wiper, signal, and ground, but I can't figure out exactly what pin 2 is doing. Referenced off of any of the other 3 pins, it reads the same at 47k full CCW rotation, and 49.5k at full CW rotation.  I haven't pulled the 'assembly' out yet, so maybe it will become obvious when I can better see the board traces.

But tell me about this voltage divider thing. Sounds like a great solution.  Easy enough to explain here? I have a box full of resistors, and only $200 at risk.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> 200k?  Do you mean 100k x 2?  If so, cool.  If not, you're confusing me (which isn't hard).
> 
> Changing the volume pot will require a little more, um, _balls_ than I originally thought.   What's in there has an 8 pin connection so I can't use the existing circuit board as the Alps has 6 pins and the spacing wouldn't line up even if the pin assignment did. I'll have to don my big boy pants and solder the wires directly to the Alps pins. And I'm a bit mystified with the readings I get on the existing pot. Pins 1, 3 and 4 are wiper, signal, and ground, but I can't figure out exactly what pin 2 is doing. Referenced off of any of the other 3 pins, it reads the same at 47k full CCW rotation, and 49.5k at full CW rotation.  I haven't pulled the 'assembly' out yet, so maybe it will become obvious when I can better see the board traces.
> 
> But tell me about this voltage divider thing. Sounds like a great solution.  Easy enough to explain here? I have a box full of resistors, and only $200 at risk.  LOL!


Take one for the team! 😁


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> 200k?  Do you mean 100k x 2?  If so, cool.  If not, you're confusing me (which isn't hard).
> 
> Changing the volume pot will require a little more, um, _balls_ than I originally thought.   What's in there has an 8 pin connection so I can't use the existing circuit board as the Alps has 6 pins and the spacing wouldn't line up even if the pin assignment did. I'll have to don my big boy pants and solder the wires directly to the Alps pins. And I'm a bit mystified with the readings I get on the existing pot. Pins 1, 3 and 4 are wiper, signal, and ground, but I can't figure out exactly what pin 2 is doing. Referenced off of any of the other 3 pins, it reads the same at 47k full CCW rotation, and 49.5k at full CW rotation.  I haven't pulled the 'assembly' out yet, so maybe it will become obvious when I can better see the board traces.
> 
> But tell me about this voltage divider thing. Sounds like a great solution.  Easy enough to explain here? I have a box full of resistors, and only $200 at risk.  LOL!



A voltage divider is just two resistors in series. You put your audio input at the top and you take your output from the middle of the two resistors. Two resistors of the same value (say 50K) will reduce your volume by half.

Its basically a fixed value potentiometer. If you google voltage divider, you will find some really nice write ups about the science of the device.

-------------

Pin 2 might be a second ground for shielding?

I honestly wouldn't screw with any of this. I would put humpty dumpty back together and sell it off while you can still get most of your money back. You just don't have the space in the chassis to fix the problems plaguing this design.

Just build yourself a better amp. If you are willing to solder and get your hands dirty, then why not? If you tell me what you want, I can even put together a schematic for you.


----------



## JKDJedi

Tjj226 Angel said:


> A voltage divider is just two resistors in series. You put your audio input at the top and you take your output from the middle of the two resistors. Two resistors of the same value (say 50K) will reduce your volume by half.
> 
> Its basically a fixed value potentiometer. If you google voltage divider, you will find some really nice write ups about the science of the device.
> 
> ...


@bcowen if it ain't broke don't fix it!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel (Oct 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> @bcowen if it ain't broke don't fix it!



More like if it is so broken that even if you fix it it still won't be worth much, don't fix it.

Gimme a few minutes, and I will show you what an OTL can be like.

Im gonna have to get back to that later. Like so many other things I do, I started looking into it and figured out I came up with kind of a neat circuit. I need to test it before I put it up online and risk having someone electrocute themselves.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> 200k?  Do you mean 100k x 2?  If so, cool.  If not, you're confusing me (which isn't hard).
> 
> Changing the volume pot will require a little more, um, _balls_ than I originally thought.   What's in there has an 8 pin connection so I can't use the existing circuit board as the Alps has 6 pins and the spacing wouldn't line up even if the pin assignment did. I'll have to don my big boy pants and solder the wires directly to the Alps pins. And I'm a bit mystified with the readings I get on the existing pot. Pins 1, 3 and 4 are wiper, signal, and ground, but I can't figure out exactly what pin 2 is doing. Referenced off of any of the other 3 pins, it reads the same at 47k full CCW rotation, and 49.5k at full CW rotation.  I haven't pulled the 'assembly' out yet, so maybe it will become obvious when I can better see the board traces.
> 
> But tell me about this voltage divider thing. Sounds like a great solution.  Easy enough to explain here? I have a box full of resistors, and only $200 at risk.  LOL!


Well, D'Oh…   
It is a 100KΩ pot (my bad) not a 200KΩ one.

And my guess for that 4th connection on the pot connector board is, it’s a ground connection to the body of the pot itself.
And changing out the pot would (or could) be a pia, but then it might just slip right on in too.
But it will take a fair amount of 'practical experience' to determine either way.

And if you don't mind making an example of a true Frankenstein amp and loosing any and all resale value, heh it could be a learning experience in DIY with indeterminate net results.
But then those are the chances and challenges of 'customizing' audio gear.

Of course if you REALLY want to dive into the DIY swimming pool take Tjj's offer and take this opportunity to dive headfirst into the deep end.
Or you could start out 'easier' by going with one of Nelson Pass's starving student amps or go full tilt and build on from scratch.
I mean ya gotta start somewhere, right?
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 

JJ


----------



## bcowen (Oct 15, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Well, D'Oh…
> It is a 100KΩ pot (my bad) not a 200KΩ one.
> 
> And my guess for that 4th connection on the pot connector board is, it’s a ground connection to the body of the pot itself.
> ...



Thanks.  Both to you and @Tjj226 Angel .  I didn't state my intentions very clearly at the outset, but just to clear that up: I have an OTL that I enjoy tremendously (the Incubus), so my musical fix(es) will not be jeopardized by whatever I do to the Darkvoice. I only bought it because 1) it was cheap, 2) I wanted something to play with, and 3) it was cheap.    It doesn't sound bad at all for what it is, but a foray into the best? Well it's not of course, and almost a certainty that it never will be. But....if I can spend $100 or $200 on parts and significantly elevate its performance, then I'm willing to do that, fully aware that it might never be worthy of the parts put in it. But I probably spend more than that every month on tubes anyway. 

So I may get up the courage to go after the pot, seeing as I already have one in hand.  No pain, no gain. Or less gain.  Or something.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 15, 2020)

Tjj226 Angel said:


> More like if it is so broken that even if you fix it it still won't be worth much, don't fix it.
> 
> Gimme a few minutes, and I will show you what an OTL can be like.
> 
> Im gonna have to get back to that later. Like so many other things I do, I started looking into it and figured out I came up with kind of a neat circuit. I need to test it before I put it up online and risk having someone electrocute themselves.


Ya know…

A little shock here and there, while a bit 'shocking' at first (  ) can be sorta like 'blowing the carbon' out of your engine…
Of course the after effect is you're now in danger of going to fast…  
hahahahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ
ps this is not medical advice, this is not a cure for what ails anyone, nor should anyone stick their fingers in the wall socket, just because…  
hahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## bcowen (Oct 15, 2020)

johnjen said:


> ps this is not medical advice, this is not a cure for what ails anyone, nor should anyone stick their fingers in the wall socket, just because…
> hahahahahahahahahaha



ROFL!  Although I'd rather stick my finger in a wall socket than across the contacts of a fully charged 450v, 1500 uF cap.  No need to ask why I know that.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 15, 2020)

That's just the initiatory greeting, like welcome to the club handshake…
A memorable event with lasting impact!!!
hahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> Ya know…
> 
> A little shock here and there, while a bit 'shocking' at first (  ) can be sorta like 'blowing the carbon' out of your engine…
> Of course the after effect is you're now in danger of going to fast…
> ...



In addition to the health risk, there is a risk to the gear as well. I am a big believer in OCL amps or Output Capacitor Less amps. As a result my design has a DC feedback loop in order to ensure the output is at 0v. If I make a design that is a little too precise and doesn't allow for some slop factor, there could be a few volts DC on the output.  

Normally this ins't an issue for speakers, but for headphones it's kind of an issue. 

In a simple design you would use an opamp to compare the output voltage (which is your unknown voltage) to ground (0v) and the output voltage is used to bias your tube. If the output voltage rises or falls to something other than ground, the opamp responds and fixes your bias voltage so that everything readjusts back to 0v. 

The problem is that you have to deal with an opamp. Its not that big of a deal because the feedback look should only affect frequencies WAYYYY below the threshold of human hearing. However it is cumbersome. 

The "ideal" (who the hell knows if its ideal or not) way to do it is to use a diff pair of input tubes in a long tail pair configuration. Now the two tubes are "current balanced" so to speak. You direct couple one preamp tube halve to the output tube to bias it, and you use the other halve to monitor the output voltage. If the tube connected to the feedback loop suddenly sees a change in voltage, the current in that preamp tube will change. Since the two preamp tubes are current balanced, the other tube will try to compensate so to speak. As a result, the voltage on the plate will change which will change the bias......which will change the output voltage of the amp, which will change the voltage at the diff pair and so on and so on. 

Sounds nice in theory until you realize EVERYTHING is DC coupled. The preamp tube is DC coupled to the output tube. The feedback loop is DC coupled to the diff pair. And the output is DC coupled to your precious headphones. 

So you know...........Schiit better fly right the first time.


----------



## johnjen

So an initial report on the change of input xfmrs…

Ah, hem, mememememememe  pee's, tee's, sss's
(clearing my throat, and get'n those virtual vocal chords all warmed up.)

It was IMMEDIATELY apparent upon the very first downbeat, after swapping out the UTC A-20 input xfmrs with Hammond 140UEX's.
And so much so that it made a striking difference.
As in, there was a BIG dynamic impact increase on EVERYTHING from cymbals to violins to voices, to stringed and percussive instruments and everything else to boot.
Like all of a sudden a compressor/limiter just got removed from the system.

Horns now have that bite from their 'bell', to the point where it's a major contributor to their overall sound,
kick drums have a thumpy punch that was only hinted at before,
plucked strings on guitars where that the pluck itself is now a distinct part of each note,
and more…

And now as I listen a day later, after a full thermal cycle, this difference is even more striking, and is still in it's infancy wrt where it will end up.

The saying goes like this…
"It's not the tubes you are listening to, rather it's the xfmrs."
This saying is usually applied to the output xfmrs but can also, and very much so in this case, apply to the input xfmrs as well.

These Hammond 140UEX xfrms have a nickle core with a 'relatively' low dcr and high inductance.
Which translates into 'better' extremes (both the top and bottom ends) which also reflects improvements into the magic-in-the-mids as well.
Win-win-win all the way around.

I'm hearing low harmonic rumble and thumps etc I've never heard before, and from tracks I never would have suspected even had these musical contributions in the first place.
Again…

And this doesn't even really touch upon the changes to the magic-in-the-mids where the music 'lives', mostly because I want to let these SQ changes stabilize before I even try to describe them.
I figure I might be in for a (or 2 or 3) surprise(s) as I'm hearing hints and 'bits that get my attention' here and there that are part of the blossoming action coming from everything I play.

Here is a before and after of their installation.





Notice my liberal use of our RWS (Random Wiring Scheme) to randomize all spurious unwanted signals, and thus help to self cancel them…
hahahahahahahahahahahaha    

JJ


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> In addition to the health risk, there is a risk to the gear as well. I am a big believer in OCL amps or Output Capacitor Less amps. As a result my design has a DC feedback loop in order to ensure the output is at 0v. If I make a design that is a little too precise and doesn't allow for some slop factor, there could be a few volts DC on the output.
> 
> Normally this ins't an issue for speakers, but for headphones it's kind of an issue.
> 
> ...



I have an appropriate LP:





You and @johnjen are about 300 levels above me on this stuff.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 16, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Notice my liberal use of our RWS (Random Wiring Scheme) to randomize all spurious unwanted signals, and thus help to self cancel them…
> hahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> JJ



Now _*that*_ part I think I can do.  LOL!

A few more tidbits on the DV:  Prior to messing with the pot (if I ever do), I thought what the hell -- snipped out the cheap 1k metal film cathode bias resistors and replaced them with some 1k Rikens. I'm sure you and @Tjj226 Angel are both rolling your eyes at this point wondering how big an idiot I truly am sticking some noisy, drifty carbon films in place of metal films that regardless of cheapness are probably quieter and more stable.  Problem is that I love Rikens, and have quite a few left from earlier stashings.  Honestly, I was a bit taken back at the difference. Trying to control my expectation bias to the best extent possible, there is low level harmonic detail and information that simply wasn't there before.  Maybe my mind exaggerated the difference, but no question there was a difference, and much for the better. Everything was fine and good with the (adapted) Sylvania 7N7 Frankentube in place...no hum or additional perceived noise, just more music. Then I stuck in a '51 Foton 6N8S. Wow. LOUD hum in both channels. Really loud. So I stuck in a '55.  Same exact thing.  Then a '57 with the same result.  Put in a '54 Melz.  Hum volume went down considerably, but still quite audible. In went the (adapted) Tung Sol 6J5's.  Dead quiet initially, then after a couple songs a very loud hum developed in the right channel...but not the left.  So next a '51 Sylvania Bad Boy (true 6SN7).  Dead quiet. Put the 7N7 back in -- dead quiet.  OK, so the 7N7 is electrically identical to a 6SN7 and the 6N8S's and 6J5's have some slight differences in internal capacitance and such. So I'm good with a 6SN7...only?  What? (and just to note all these tubes have been tested in my (rebuilt) Hickok, so random luck with bad or poor measuring tubes doesn't enter the picture).

So, time for some bypass capacitors in the form of 220 uF Nichicon FG's.  Hum be gone.  Totally. The former problematic tubes became non-problematic. The best part?  Macrodynamics took a pretty nice step up, the tone and harmonic goodness of the Rikens stayed put, and even better, while adding those caps increased the gain there's no effect on the volume control setting.  Still way too little travel, but the 'loudness' is still in the same range with the pot set at the same point as it was prior to the cap addition.  Not sure exactly what this is telling me, but I suspect it's telling me the existing pot is a piece of crap with an uneven coating on the disc(s).  So now to rifle through the closet and see if I can find my big boy pants.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Now _*that*_ part I think I can do.  LOL!
> 
> A few more tidbits on the DV:  Prior to messing with the pot (if I ever do), I thought what the hell -- snipped out the cheap 1k metal film cathode bias resistors and replaced them with some 1k Rikens. I'm sure you and @Tjj226 Angel are both rolling your eyes at this point wondering how big an idiot I truly am sticking some noisy, drifty carbon films in place of metal films that regardless of cheapness are probably quieter and more stable.  Problem is that I love Rikens, and have quite a few left from earlier stashings.  Honestly, I was a bit taken back at the difference. Trying to control my expectation bias to the best extent possible, there is low level harmonic detail and information that simply wasn't there before.  Maybe my mind exaggerated the difference, but no question there was a difference, and much for the better. Everything was fine and good with the (adapted) Sylvania 7N7 Frankentube in place...no hum or additional perceived noise, just more music. Then I stuck in a '51 Foton 6N8S. Wow. LOUD hum in both channels. Really loud. So I stuck in a '55.  Same exact thing.  Then a '57 with the same result.  Put in a '54 Melz.  Hum volume went down considerably, but still quite audible. In went the (adapted) Tung Sol 6J5's.  Dead quiet initially, then after a couple songs a very loud hum developed in the right channel...but not the left.  So next a '51 Sylvania Bad Boy (true 6SN7).  Dead quiet. Put the 7N7 back in -- dead quiet.  OK, so the 7N7 is electrically identical to a 6SN7 and the 6N8S's and 6J5's have some slight differences in internal capacitance and such. So I'm good with a 6SN7...only?  What? (and just to note all these tubes have been tested in my (rebuilt) Hickok, so random luck with bad or poor measuring tubes doesn't enter the picture).
> 
> So, time for some bypass capacitors in the form of 220 uF Nichicon FG's.  Hum be gone.  Totally. The former problematic tubes became non-problematic. The best part?  Macrodynamics took a pretty nice step up, the tone and harmonic goodness of the Rikens stayed put, and even better, while adding those caps increased the gain there's no effect on the volume control setting.  Still way too little travel, but the 'loudness' is still in the same range with the pot set at the same point as it was prior to the cap addition.  Not sure exactly what this is telling me, but I suspect it's telling me the existing pot is a piece of crap with an uneven coating on the disc(s).  So now to rifle through the closet and see if I can find my big boy pants.



Nope. I like carbon comp resistors which are even worse. Rikens are just fine with me. 

I try to strike a nice trifecta of electrical engineering, economics, and subjective voodoo witch craft when I build my amps. 

------------

As far as the hum goes, yeah IDK. The bypass capacitor will shunt more PSU noise to ground, but still. There is no reason why those tubes should have hummed more than others if they were tested as being good tubes.


----------



## johnjen

Carbon comps are my fav as well but they are finicky to the max.  Carbon films are #2 on my hit parade followed by metal films, and all of this is in terms of SQ and usability etc.

And those cathode bias resistors are a key aspect to the overall SQ of the amp so it doesn't surprise me you noticed a significant difference.

As for the gain of the amp…
Changing the pot to a 200KΩ one, might help, but only a little bit and probably not enough to make the effort worthwhile at least in terms of the usable position of the MOAR knob.

SQ however is another matter entirely and I'd first work on adding the voltage divider to get the pot into it's sweet spot, THEN consider swapping out the pot.

And adding a voltage divider should do the trick and can be 'tweaked' (by using different resistor values) to set the pot into it's sweet spot.
But if you jump into this end of the pool start with the 50KΩ (x2) values and see where you land.
From there you can adjust their values to dial them in, and where in the sweet spot of the pot you want to wind up.

Just a few more passing thoughts to consider.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Nope. I like carbon comp resistors which are even worse. Rikens are just fine with me.
> 
> I try to strike a nice trifecta of electrical engineering, economics, and subjective voodoo witch craft when I build my amps.
> snip


As those of us who have been traveling down these audio pathways for a while now, know, the subjective evaluation is the most contentious aspect of what makes a piece of audio gear desirable. 
There are no tests, or measurements, nor is there even common ground as to what IS desirable in the first place.
Well, other than the standard THD, FR, phase response etc, which are more or less indicators of a circuit that is functional to a minimum degree of operational acceptability to start with.
Beyond that is where dragons be.

And chasing SQ improvements for their own sake is, or at least seems to be, fraught with pitfalls, blind dead ends, uncertainty, and great deal of trial and error.
Now these things in and of themselves are not a 'problem' especially if entering into this end of the audio pool is sought out, and is acceptable and perhaps even desirable in the first place, despite the dragons and other beasties lurking in the tall grass…
Still the rewards for 'opening up' the SQ by say replacing a cathode resistor, or trying a variety of CCS implementations, or changing the entire circuit configuration, or trying new xfmrs etc, can be MOST illuminating and a source of insight into what does and doesn't help, and hopefully why.

And it does seem like it takes a 'rare(r)' combination of "a nice trifecta of electrical engineering, economics, and subjective voodoo witch craft" along with enough practical experience and the ears with sufficient experience and discernment, to be able to tell when a change is truly 'better', or is just different…
Let alone knowing what the desirable cumulative net effects of removing veils, barriers to 'better' SQ, *CP'*s (Choke Points), is supposed to, or even can, yield, and so be able to stay focused upon what truly _*IS*_ 'better'.

Never mind the dreaded twists and turns that dragons and beasties can bring to the party…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahha

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Carbon comps are my fav as well but they are finicky to the max.  Carbon films are #2 on my hit parade followed by metal films, and all of this is in terms of SQ and usability etc.
> 
> And those cathode bias resistors are a key aspect to the overall SQ of the amp so it doesn't surprise me you noticed a significant difference.
> 
> ...



Thanks JJ!  

So with forgiveness begging at the outset for my _not_ smarter than a 5th grader drawing abilities, am I on the right track below?  Or completely in the wrong neighborhood?  





There is actually some room at the back to do this.  I could stick the first resistor lead directly in the RCA and finagle the rest around easily enough.  Have a bag full of 47k resistors which should at least point me in the right direction (assuming a 1/2 watt rating is sufficient?). And I'm assuming the resistors are needed only for the positive L/R input leads (and not L/R positive _*and *_negative). Or no?





 Thanks man!!


----------



## johnjen (Oct 16, 2020)

That is spot on as to where to add the volt-divider.
And 47K 1/2w resistors are peachy keen in this application, and what do I win if I guess they are CF gold wire Rikens???
HMMMMM?  hahahahahahahaha   

And this surgical procedure does involve cutting/unsoldering both the white and red wires, and *finding* (or not, sometimes ya never know) the 'proper' ground to use.

I'm not sure what you mean by "(and not L/R positive _*and *_negative)."

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> That is spot on as to where to add the volt-divider.
> And 47K 1/2w resistors are peachy keen in this application, and what do I win if I guess they are CF gold wire Rikens???
> HMMMMM?  hahahahahahahaha
> 
> ...



Cool.  What I meant on the left/right thing is that the 2 resistors need added only to the "+" leg of each channel, not _both_ the "+" and "-" legs of each channel.  Or said another way, 2 resistors on the "+" of each channel, and the "-" of each channel is left untouched?   Does that make better sense and/or explain the question better?


----------



## johnjen

Since this is single ended there is no "–", but there is chassis ground used as the 'signal return'.

So 2) of the 50K resistors connect in series, and so connect one end of the pair to the center pin of the input RCA jack circuit board.
Connect the other end of the pair to the chassis/signal ground.
Then either the red or white wire is soldered to that middle junction of each pair.

Said another way…
The 1st resistor, of the pair, (per channel) connects to the center pin of the RCA jack on the back panel circuit board.
The second resistor, of the pair, (per channel) connects to chassis/signal ground.

And the 2 resistors, of each pair, connect to each other, along with the red or white wire in the middle of each pair.

What you will need to do is find a 'suitable' chassis ground connection, for the chassis/ground 'return' (outer connection/shield of the RCA jack).
Which, if what I think what I see is 'real'…

At each corner of the input/output circuit board are 4 solder blobs which should be the outer connection/shield of the RCA jacks.
Use the solder blob closest to the red wire for its ground connection for that pair of resistors, and the same for the white wire.
IOW make a loop using a pair of resistors from the center pin of each RCA jack to its associated solder blob in that corner, then solder the associated colored wire to the center of that loop of each pair of resistors.

But the voltage divider has to be connected to a 'suitable' ground, and by suitable I mean one that isn't noisy and is a 'real chassis ground' (as in 0.xΩ when tested by a DVM) with reference to 'the actual circuit ground connection' used by the amp.
I don't know where 'the actual circuit ground connection' is located, as I haven't seen a pic.

Is my explanation clear enough?

JJ


----------



## bcowen (Oct 17, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Since this is single ended there is no "–", but there is chassis ground used as the 'signal return'.
> 
> So 2) of the 50K resistors connect in series, and so connect one end of the pair to the center pin of the input RCA jack circuit board.
> Connect the other end of the pair to the chassis/signal ground.
> ...



I think I get it.  The first resistor for the right channel into the center pin of the RCA jack, that resistor is then soldered end-to-end to the 2nd resistor, the red wire soldered to the center junction between the two, and the free end of the second resistor connected to ground.  Duplicate for the left channel and the white wire.

The existing input wiring ground (signal return) leads for both channels are tied together and soldered to the board where the arrow is (hidden by the cable/wire tie). I haven't checked that upper solder blob/pad to see if it's at ground potential...if it is, that might be a good starting place to go with the ground end of the resistors.  If not, the chassis/earth ground coming off the IEC socket is just to the right of the arrow below and is in reach. There is continuity between that and the input ground pad on the RCA circuit board. So as long as you see nothing wrong here, I'm ready to play.  And again, thanks sincerely for the coaching (and @Tjj226 Angel too).






The test setup will be total dreck sonically and probably noisy as all hell, just want to play with the values (externally) to approximate the loudness/volume knob relationship. Unfortunately, I don't have 4 Rikens at 47k, only Dales   but I'll start with those as a baseline. And perhaps I can find a good combination with zero or negligible dissipation with the Rikens I *do* have.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Well, the 47k resistors didn't do much.  Took "loud" from 7:00 to maybe 7:30.  Tried a few other combinations, and finally with this combo (22k R1 and 4.7k R2) I'm getting the volume control up into the 11:00 to 12:00 position.  I'm happy with that, although the input voltage reduction (from 2.0v down to 0.352v) seems a bit extreme which makes me even more suspicious of that pot.  At least now I know this will work, but before I begin formal surgery I'm going to go ahead and swap the pot and see if the result is the same. And glory be...I just happen to have Rikens in those values.  LOL!

One last question though:  the drastic reduction doesn't pose any risk to the source component does it?  Right now it's a Modi Multibit, but the Bifrost 2 that's in normal use has the same 2.0v output...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, the 47k resistors didn't do much.  Took "loud" from 7:00 to maybe 7:30.  Tried a few other combinations, and finally with this combo (22k R1 and 4.7k R2) I'm getting the volume control up into the 11:00 to 12:00 position.  I'm happy with that, although the input voltage reduction (from 2.0v down to 0.352v) seems a bit extreme which makes me even more suspicious of that pot.  At least now I know this will work, but before I begin formal surgery I'm going to go ahead and swap the pot and see if the result is the same. And glory be...I just happen to have Rikens in those values.  LOL!
> 
> One last question though:  the drastic reduction doesn't pose any risk to the source component does it?  Right now it's a Modi Multibit, but the Bifrost 2 that's in normal use has the same 2.0v output...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



ROFL!   JJ started it....I'm just trying to be a good student and show that I'm paying attention.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!   JJ started it....I'm just trying to be a good student and show that I'm paying attention.


I'm following along to see the final results of this experiment. 😏😁


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Well, the 47k resistors didn't do much.  Took "loud" from 7:00 to maybe 7:30.  Tried a few other combinations, and finally with this combo (22k R1 and 4.7k R2) I'm getting the volume control up into the 11:00 to 12:00 position.  I'm happy with that, although the input voltage reduction (from 2.0v down to 0.352v) seems a bit extreme which makes me even more suspicious of that pot.  At least now I know this will work, but before I begin formal surgery I'm going to go ahead and swap the pot and see if the result is the same. And glory be...I just happen to have Rikens in those values.  LOL!
> 
> One last question though:  the drastic reduction doesn't pose any risk to the source component does it?  Right now it's a Modi Multibit, but the Bifrost 2 that's in normal use has the same 2.0v output...




No risk to your components.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> No risk to your components.



Thanks!!


----------



## johnjen

If it were me…
I'd opt for getting the pot in the 10-11 range as that means using a bit larger resistor values, which doesn't lower the input Ω of the amp quite as much.
But if you don't have those resistor values 'handy' then go with what is at hand.

As for changing the pot itself, yes now that you can compare the differences (albeit in only a minimal sorta way) that would be the next step.

It will be interesting to see what you notice after the new pot goes in.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> If it were me…
> I'd opt for getting the pot in the 10-11 range as that means using a bit larger resistor values, which doesn't lower the input Ω of the amp quite as much.
> But if you don't have those resistor values 'handy' then go with what is at hand.
> 
> ...



Good to know...thanks.  I've got Rikens in other values, so perhaps can up the values a bit.  Pot surgery is scheduled for tomorrow.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> If it were me…
> I'd opt for getting the pot in the 10-11 range as that means using a bit larger resistor values, which doesn't lower the input Ω of the amp quite as much.
> But if you don't have those resistor values 'handy' then go with what is at hand.
> 
> ...




Thats not a bad idea, but I don't think its all that useful either. So long as he doesn't use a preamp to drive the headphone amp (which would sort of defeat the point of adding the voltage divider in the first place), he should be fine.

His input impedance will be roughly 25K or so which is more than fine for most sources.

Theoretically the best thing he could do is fashion himself his own custom passive preamp, and remove the internal pot all together.


----------



## johnjen

So I added Hovland SuperCaps as bypass caps for the main B+ power supply feed and for the bias caps that feed the 71A bias current.
They are settling in now.

And with the several recent changes, the SQ has been increasing, but I'm just now approaching the 20+ hr run time mark, where the SQ tends to reach a peak and the high water mark moves up a notch or 2 or 497845…

But these changes lately are remarkable in that the SQ across the board has taken a substantial Mutha May I step skyward.

The playback system seems to have slipped out the back, leaving just the musicians playing between my ears.
It is especially rewarding listening to massed strings, from quartets all the way to big orchestral pieces, mostly because the the 'blur factor' I usually hear has lessened to the degree that I can really easily track individual violins, cellos, bass's etc. in quartets, quintets, sextets etc.
And during really complex musical passages where the system tended to 'squish' much of the same harmonic signatures together into a single mass of sound, this has lessened considerably, to the point that I can hear different locations of the different violins etc in their section of the orchestra.

This is a 'serious test' of the resolving power of any system, let alone the recording process and everything in between.
To be able to 'pick out' a single instrument from a sea of them, or a single 'voice' while the whole rest of the orchestra is playing, is noteworthy in and of itself.

And the initial 'kick' or *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) I mentioned previously has become even more solid, as in the smack of a cymbal or snap of a snare drum etc all now have more 'mass'/power behind them, are more visceral, when they smack me upside my head.

And the *S/S* (Spoky/Scary) factor has risen to the point that every 'voice' now has a more complete sound signature.
Put another way the harmonic structure of all *'voices'* has become 'richer', more harmonically complete, more complex and with additional sonority and *REALNESS*.
This in turn yields a more 'realistic' acoustic soundstage which is coupled even more closely with all of the '*voices*' that are playing and acoustically 'exciting' the space.

It's like there is more there, there, no matter what is playing, or hearing my music as if anew.
Again…

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So I added Hovland SuperCaps as bypass caps for the main B+ power supply feed and for the bias caps that feed the 71A bias current.
> They are settling in now.
> 
> And with the several recent changes, the SQ has been increasing, but I'm just now approaching the 20+ hr run time mark, where the SQ tends to reach a peak and the high water mark moves up a notch or 2 or 497845…
> ...



Hmmmm.....I'd only need 44 of those (22 / channel) to get to the 100 uF capacitance level @Tjj226 Angel recommended for the Darkvoice.  And a wee bit bigger chassis.  But perhaps spending $2200 on caps for a $200 amp doesn't make the best sense.  





Seriously, have you experimented with any of the Mundorf oil caps?  Just wondering how the Hovlands compare if you have (I've never tried the Hovlands).


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....I'd only need 44 of those (22 / channel) to get to the 100 uF capacitance level @Tjj226 Angel recommended for the Darkvoice.  And a wee bit bigger chassis.  But perhaps spending $2200 on caps for a $200 amp doesn't make the best sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, have you experimented with any of the Mundorf oil caps?  Just wondering how the Hovlands compare if you have (I've never tried the Hovlands).



I have. Mundorf has always just been a non start for me and I think john would agree. Mundorf just never sounds right. Its almost like they are doing something wrong in manufacturing. 

While we are talking about it, can you measure across those three output caps and give me the width, length, and height measurements? I bet you I can find you a 100uf cap to fit in there.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 18, 2020)

Tjj226 Angel said:


> I have. Mundorf has always just been a non start for me and I think john would agree. Mundorf just never sounds right. Its almost like they are doing something wrong in manufacturing.
> 
> While we are talking about it, can you measure across those three output caps and give me the width, length, and height measurements? I bet you I can find you a 100uf cap to fit in there.



Awesome!  Width and length below. They sit exactly 1" above the circuit board in height, but there is a bit more than 1.25" of room between the circuit board and bottom cover plate.






Edit:  this might be helpful.  Below was done by fellow HeadFi'er @Absoltuion .  The 74v is what he measured in his amp, and the 250v is the rating on the cap.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Hmmmmmmmm that is a tough one. I think a box style cap might work though.


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....I'd only need 44 of those (22 / channel) to get to the 100 uF capacitance level @Tjj226 Angel recommended for the Darkvoice.  And a wee bit bigger chassis.  But perhaps spending $2200 on caps for a $200 amp doesn't make the best sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, have you experimented with any of the Mundorf oil caps?  Just wondering how the Hovlands compare if you have (I've never tried the Hovlands).


The Hovlands I have are used as bypass caps, meaning they are added to an existing larger value cap to 'augment' it's performance.
Think of it as adding a 'terbo' to the circuit.

And Hovland does have larger values but at an ever increasing cost, so I use them for their 'terbo' function.

And as Tjj alluded to, I too have used the mundorfs and was unimpressed, as in 'ok what else can I use…'

The Hovlands have 2 'flavors' with 2 different types for each 'flavor'; lower voltage rated for speaker crossovers, and higher voltage rated for tube circuits, and have proven themselves to be 'superior' albeit costly and in some cases somewhat rare (read even more costly).

There are 'alternatives' which approach the Hovlands in SQ but are not necessarily less expensive and in some cases are even more so.

The 'trick' here is to use a large value cap of moderate quality (less costly) and bypass it with the higher quality 'terbo' caps, which also are less costly because they are much smaller in value.
The 'general rule' is to use a capacitance ratio of 100:1, meaning the largest value cap should be bypassed by a cap with 1/100 the capacitance, or there abouts.
The net effect will be, an improvement in the slew rate of the cap-bank (the big and small cap combined), a SQ improvement in the top end, and added clarity, focus, inner detail etc.
And the kicker is this 'trick' can significantly improve the SQ when used in 'key' locations within the circuit.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Oct 20, 2020)

MAJOR EXPERIMENT UNDER WAY!!!!!
Details to follow!
And just when the amp started to really SING!!!!





Ok, so we went full on crazy, and changed the output wiring configuration from a more traditional cap & resistor bypass configuration, to an Ultrapath circuit topology.
And this when the SQ was still climbing to the stratosphere, only to have our 'need to know' exert itself and set off the needed steps to find out…

The change itself was fairly easy as really all that happened was to change the cathode cap from parallel to the bias resistor, which runs from from the cathode to ground.
To, connect the B+ feed at the primary of the output xfmr to then feed the cap and then to the cathode.

Into this.


And of course it's still settling in as there is some dialing in yet to do.
The noise floor is now audible and the cap being used needs more hrs, (no surprise there right?)
So the search is on for a tweako cap for this setup, which fortunately should be easy(r) to find and won't break the bank nor require it's own sub-chassis  .  hahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## therremans

Can anyone confirm that the yellow is left channel and Right, right channel? I don’t want to assume.

Thanks


----------



## johnjen

Red is 'usually' denoted as 'right'.
But if this the darkvoice amp you should be able to use a dvm and verify the connection from the red marked signal lead to the right channel input rca jack.

JJ


----------



## therremans (Oct 21, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Red is 'usually' denoted as 'right'.
> But if this the darkvoice amp you should be able to use a dvm and verify the connection from the red marked signal lead to the right channel input rca jack.
> 
> JJ


Good point
Edit: the signal was broke when I removed the pot. I can keep looking at some photos or post on the DV thread


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

therremans said:


> Good point
> Edit: the signal was broke when I removed the pot. I can keep looking at some photos or post on the DV thread



Red should be right channel. Red almost always denotes the right channel.


----------



## therremans

yes and I see another pcb where left is yellow.


----------



## johnjen

MAJOR EXPERIMENT UNDER WAY!!!!!
Details to follow!
And just when the amp started to really SING!!!!
PART II…



So after another round of circuit surgery and adding even more caps (see photo) the hum is gone, the dynamics have returned, and the amp is returning to it's previous 'glory'.
The Ultrapath has now been refined and matched more closely to the gain of the output tubes and the cathode bias bypass caps have been re-installed.

And so this configuration has very few hrs of operation thus far so a more definite eval will have to wait, but…
It was immediately apparent the SQ had returned and began noticeably blossoming even before the first hr. of operation.
There is still a bit of tweaking to do as I need to find a 33µf 600vdc rated cap to replace the stack of caps and perhaps a bit more power supply refinements.

And today even this early in the settling in process, the SQ has taken a BIG step up to it's previous peak and it will continue to become yet more refined for the rest of the day.

Just like I like…

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> MAJOR EXPERIMENT UNDER WAY!!!!!
> Details to follow!
> And just when the amp started to really SING!!!!
> PART II…
> ...



Where be the photo?  I'm so dejected.  Or is this a "Film at 11" type thing?


----------



## johnjen (Oct 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Where be the photo?  I'm so dejected.  Or is this a "Film at 11" type thing?


Ok so JUST for you, you know, so's you can feel 'special,' and not left behind, and alone, and like you have no friends…
hahahahahahahahahah   




JJ   
Oh and it's already been modified one step beyond this but that will be the next post.


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Ok so JUST for you, you know, so's you can feel 'special,' and not left behind, and alone, and like you have no friends…
> hahahahahahahahahah
> 
> 
> ...



Balance has been restored to my universe.  Thanks!!


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> Balance has been restored to my universe.  Thanks!!


I'm a giver not a taker!!!!   hahahahahahahahahahah   

But soon enough I'm gunna hafta post more about this latest set of cooking experiments from "JJ's desktop electronic surgical la-BOR-atory and solder slinging workstation'.

And we (meaning mostly him) cooked up yet another couple of tweaks on top of tweaks based upon previous tweaks ad absurdum…  
And I'm think'n, in full on uhmerikun, if a little is good too much should be about right, right?

So another round of experiments may be looming in the 'above and beyond' category of circuit dynamics as in, 'lets try THIS and see what happens'…

But right now, as I type this (after ≈1hr of playing time) the SQ has reached new high water peaks, always a good sign.
So I figure why stop now if we're on a roll, right???
hahahahahahahahahaha  (this is usually where disaster raises it's scatter brained head and goes, Huh?)

But I always fall back on the sage words of my main man Harry, (Dirty Harry) "A Man's gotta know his limitations".  
hahahahahahahahahahaha  

A sneak peek of the latest set of Ultrapath 'enhancement' tweaks, in this direct coupled prototype/test bench/research mule-tool HP amp.

The left channel showing the B+ across the 71A output tube


The right channel showing the B+ across the other 71A output tube


And the SQ is blossoming yet again and I'm desperately trying to NOT make any more changes, at LEAST for a couple of days and all the while the itch to sling hot solder knows no bounds.  
hahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So another round of experiments may be looming in the 'above and beyond' category of circuit dynamics as in, 'lets try THIS and see what happens'…



When *I* do that, _smoke_ usually happens.  



johnjen said:


> The left channel showing the B+ across the 71A output tube...
> 
> The right channel showing the B+ across the other 71A output tube



A  0.03v variance?  Probably your meter.  Have you had it calibrated recently?


----------



## johnjen (Oct 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> When *I* do that, _smoke_ usually happens.


Here in the lab we take ALLLLLL necessary precautions.
There is a fire extinguisher near by (I can't remember if I got it re-filled or not from last time, hmmmm  )
And as you can see I have the finest (chinesium) LONG reach probes that can all to easily span the gap between tube socket pins, so at least *I* don't get electromotated across the room after the blinding flash…
And there is a fire proof hoody overcoat somewhere around here, buried under who knows what, ya know just in case the obviously defective parts "can't handle the truth" er sumpt'n…

And of course there is the de rigueur smoke replacement and restoration kit, (with a lifetime supply of refill cartridges, (just add water)) readily at hand for those 'quick fixes'.

And the motto hanging on the wall that says "You Can NEVER Be To Careful", which is covered by postit notes and phone numbers for Dog only knows who anymore.
Just as a reminder of how I managed to live to tell about those 'memorable' past exploits…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha   



bcowen said:


> A  0.03v variance?  Probably your meter.  Have you had it calibrated recently?


Calibrate my meters, really?
You want me to live on the edge of trying to not only be precise but accurate as well????

Is this called pushing my buttons AND yanking my chain and at the SAME time? 

I tell ya, some peoples kids…  
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## therremans

I came here to ask this question.. is traditional pull back cloth wire (22awg, waxed insulation) okay for building amps? I was in the process of replacing some wire in mine and wanted to be sure this wouldn’t cause interference/humming problems.

I now see the amp above @johnjen posted may be actually using it.

Thanks


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

therremans said:


> I came here to ask this question.. is traditional pull back cloth wire (22awg, waxed insulation) okay for building amps? I was in the process of replacing some wire in mine and wanted to be sure this wouldn’t cause interference/humming problems.
> 
> I now see the amp above @johnjen posted may be actually using it.
> 
> Thanks



Yeup, wax wire is fine. Just be careful though, I used to use vintage WE wire in my amps, and the wire kept stress fracturing and breaking off. Make sure you use decent wire so that you don't have those problems.


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Here in the lab we take ALLLLLL necessary precautions.
> There is a fire extinguisher near by (I can't remember if I got it re-filled or not from last time, hmmmm  )
> And as you can see I have the finest (chinesium) LONG reach probes that can all to easily span the gap between tube socket pins, so at least *I* don't get electromotated across the room after the blinding flash…
> And there is a fire proof hoody overcoat somewhere around here, buried under who knows what, ya know just in case the obviously defective parts "can't handle the truth" er sumpt'n…
> ...



LOL!  Yeah, it's always those other people's kids. Or their parents.

I prefer my sign that says "Take Your Farad Like A Man."


----------



## johnjen (Oct 24, 2020)

therremans said:


> I came here to ask this question.. is traditional pull back cloth wire (22awg, waxed insulation) okay for building amps? I was in the process of replacing some wire in mine and wanted to be sure this wouldn’t cause interference/humming problems.
> 
> I now see the amp above @johnjen posted may be actually using it.
> 
> Thanks


As an added note.
The woven cloth (waxed or oiled or not) isn't the best insulation available at least in terns of preventing shorts or grounding out to the top plate or other surfaces and other wires.
It does (or can) sound better due to the dialectric having less 'memory' like plastics do.

So if you do use it make sure it isn't hard pressed up against any other metal surfaces, especially going around corners or at 90º crossings with other wires etc.
It can be all to easy to penetrate the insulation layer and short out.

Like when you cinch up that ty-rap nice and tight squeezing a bundle of wires together…
Which is why you don't see ANY ty-raps in the Purp-Amp and all of the wires hugging the top plate are actually lifted off, if ever so slightly…
EDIT: Other than for securing objects (caps etc) in place.

Just a word of caution.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, it's always those other people's kids. Or their parents.
> 
> I prefer my sign that says "Take Your Farad Like A Man."


Just be thankful that those pesky farads only come in DC and not AC.  

Those AC zingers usually cause teeth rattling and muscle spasms which can all to easily be misunderstood.
I mean the treatment for a grand mal seizure can take an AC zinger to a whole nuther level…    

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So the amp is still buried in the 'terrible teens' after hitting a peak at ≈10hrs, on it's way to the inevitable peak at ≈20+hrs.

I'm hoping I get there tonight, but by tomorrow I should get a good idea of the SQ character of this latest iteration of circuit topology.

And try as I might to describe the changes I've heard, I'm finding I might need to hijack yet even more words to re-purpose for my dastardly machinations.
Perhaps I'll luck out and save us all from having to come to terms with additional aspects of musical appreciation without further complication of 'what does he mean by THAT???'
hahahahahahahaha  

And ya know, I'm not holding my breath, nah uh…  

And for those discriminating musical aficionado's out there.   
There is an album of Henry Mancini's hits recorded in 2004 (_Henry Mancini - Ultimate Mancini_) with at least 3 killer cuts, 
_The Pink Panther Theme,  Peter Gunn,  Charade_.
My 'suggestion is to turn it up' if you like big bands do'n it up. 

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So the amp is still buried in the 'terrible teens' after hitting a peak at ≈10hrs, on it's way to the inevitable peak at ≈20+hrs.
> 
> I'm hoping I get there tonight, but by tomorrow I should get a good idea of the SQ character of this latest iteration of circuit topology.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the rec!  I haven't listened to that recording (which I will), but the Pink Panther and Baby Elephant Walk from the Telarc recording have been in my test rotation for a very long time...


----------



## johnjen

So as I'm typing this the SQ of the Purp-Amp is improving at a 'easy' pace at the mid 20 hrs of playing time.

And tomorrow I'll be installing a set of fixed value 33µf caps to replace the stack of mixed value caps in the ultrapath portion of the circuit.
So the settling in clock will start all over again.  

But at this point the SQ is still difficult to adequately describe with words, other than to say everything (as in all of my descriptors) are 'upscaling' much like removing a veil.
And the acoustic presentation is starting to remind me of what *CNST* (Central nervous System Tap) sounds like just before it 'snaps into place' so to speak.

This for me is a long sought after goal spanning nearly 5 decades.  
And reaching this milestone is remarkable, and yet there are still more experiments to explore and even more revealing degree's of SQ to strive for. 

We have a few more CCS refinements, another output configuration, even a couple more grounding schemes, to try.  

So as I hear newly revealed harmonic nuances for all '*voices*', they in turn taunt me still further, as new refinements and the art of the tweak continue to push the high water mark even higher of what this amp can deliver.

Much to my delight, as you might imagine.   

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Oct 28, 2020)

So I dropped the 2) 33µf 630vdc Clarity Caps in place of the built up cap stack and I also kept the Hovland SuperCaps in with them.
I'm listening to the amp as I type this and the extreme bottom end has 'risen to the occasion', and this is with ≈ 2hrs of playing time on the new caps.

But wait there's moar…

The tippy top end has gained additional sparkle and finesse along with inner focus.
However the mids still have yet to blossom to the same degree, but the night is still young and there is tomorrow and the day after etc…

Frankly, I was surprised at the SQ difference between the built up test cap set, and these Clarity Caps, and so soon after installing them at that.

So as I continue to listen, I'll track the SQ changes and especially in the mid range where the music 'lives' just to see where this iteration of the design leads us.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So I dropped the 2) 33µf 630vdc Clarity Caps in place of the built up cap stack and I also kept the Hovland SuperCaps in with them.
> I'm listening to the amp as I type this and the extreme bottom end has 'risen to the occasion', and this is with ≈ 2hrs of playing time on the new caps.
> 
> But wait there's moar…
> ...



Good, good. 

One of these days I will find out why paralleling capacitors doesn't really work as intended. Ideally you should be able to parallel 33 1uf caps and actually end up with better sound. But it never works out that way.


----------



## johnjen (Oct 30, 2020)

So this evening the SQ is blossoming from top to bottom and everything in between.
I kinda was hoping it would have last night but it took until today to begin to 'open up'.  
And there is yet more refinement etc. to be realized as I'm just now pushing into the 25hr+ 'settling in clock'.

The acoustic power that is being delivered to my ears and head and body is most impressive and is directly related to the the degree of subsonic bass coupling that reaches all the way up to the tippy top end.  

This is the magic that we stumbled upon back in 1973 with the hodge-podge system we had back in college.
That is where the term *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) was 1st experienced and then coined.

It was noticed that when the bass (from subsonic on up) was *C3* (cohesive, coherent, coupled) with the rest of the audible bandwidth, that was when the magic happened.
It was also noticed that even predominantly high frequency '*voices*' (like piccolo's, cymbals, etc.) also had a low bass frequency component to their sound signature.
And when this low frequency is 'properly' coupled to the rest of the harmonic content of all these '*voices*', not only do they take on an enhanced degree of realism, but EVERYTHING else does also.

Getting the bass 'right' has been my major focus for quite a while now because when this *C3,* beginning at the very foundation of the audible spectrum, snaps into place, ALL of the sonic and acoustic traits I treasure also snap into place.
And when *CNST* takes over, there is no escape from its 'command' of our attention, thus the *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) effect, where I simply can NOT stop listening.
This results in the complete suspension of disbelief, since there is no need to even try to figure out just what is being heard, because it is immediately obvious that every aspect of the presentation of the musical experience is known without any doubt nor question.

It just might be that since there is no doubt nor question as to what is being heard, in real time, the needed amount of the minds audible processing is reduced and so the immediacy of the music becomes all the more compelling and insistent at grabbing my full attention (*SDSG*).
Think of it as the mind is less busy trying to figure out what is being presented and so the 'real time' aspect of the music itself is more immediate.

I mention all of this because the early tell tale signs and acoustic indicators are starting to peek from around the corners, so to speak.
And during this blossom activity there can be a sudden shift/step up in SQ, as in all of a sudden, between tracks or even mid track, things obviously morph and 'improve'.
Like it's doing on Jennifer Warnes album *The Hunter* right now, as I type this.

These signs and indicators tell me we are very close to eliminating the very last of the *CP'*s (Choke Points) that remain, where the circuit, in it's entirety, has 'gotten out of it's own way'.

It's been almost 50 years since I was enthralled with what we heard back in college, and knew that one day I was going to re-create that experience once again.  

We're almost there.   

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Oct 31, 2020)

So tonight the SQ has remained at an 'elevated' level but it's not at a peak as it has slipped down off the 25+hr peak.   

All of those 'repurposed' descriptors I use in *BOLD* have almost ceased to be important any more. 
And a really good sign that confirms that is, no matter what style/genre I play, it now has a new lease on life, so to speak.

From Heart to Ronnie Earl, to Nilsson, to Focus, to the Stones, to Led Zepplin, with a bunch of full orchestral and big band music to boot.

The acoustic space at orchestral halls, soundstages, pure studio creations, it doesn't matter what the acoustic space is, it now has become it's own '*voice' *as a part of the music itself.

And all of this music has taken a 'MAJOR-Mutha May I step up' in all of those "'repurposed' descriptors", but it's the *C3* (Cohesion, Coherence, Coupling) attributes where the resolution of the focus 'locks' '*voices*' in place and when it happens it suddenly snaps into a tighter focus.
This one attribute of *C3,* when it all aligns and extends from the very sub-basement, all the way up, well the 'solidity' of the entire soundstage presentation becomes visceral and seemingly tangible.

When the SQ changes like this, the subsequent peaks in SQ have turned out to be, shall we say, memorable.  
And if the SQ I'm hearing now, as it continues to push the SQ bar ever higher, is any indication of where it's headed,
well…  

I think that all of our circuit tweaking, f'n & screwing around with this and that, has resulted in a 'uniquely satisfying musical experience'.
hahahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Nov 4, 2020)

Purp-Amp update and music selection report.

The SQ is blossoming as I type this.

It is 'gracefully' stepping up it's game, on everything from Stevie Ray Vaughn *In Step*


to Dave Crusin *Homage to Duke*

Which is an especially notable, very well recorded, big band with some impressive talent.


The SQ has reached the point where the HP's NEED to be on my head, NOW!
Interruptions occur but as soon as I turn back around and hear the music playing, I gotta crank it back to 'chair danc'n' levels and maybe a little 'extra' just because the SQ has reached the point where the bass, which is already 'kick'n', now has some mass behind it.
It's like there is an arm attached to the fist that is whap'n me, upside my head, and down deep into my body, at the same time.

And I must say I do so appreciate the added 'emphasis' when the bass thumps my whole body, all thanks to the consequences of using the 'Fletcher Munson curves', to my full advantage.
hahahahahahahahahaha.   

And the *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) has not just peeked out from around the corner, but has turned said corner and has made a bee line straight between my ears.
And I think it's still buzzing around in there, settling in, ya know, making itself right at home.  

The top end is so articulate now that it doesn't draw attention to itself, well, unless the music calls for it, of course.
IOW the tinkle on top is so effortless and smooth, but can be hard edged when need be, is such that the texture and finesse of this extreme end of the bandwidth is exquisitely delicate and powerful at the same time.  

The soundstage, of whatever type (orchestra, big band, studio, live, etc.), is getting even more spatially defined as well as harmonically typified, and it's easily more obvious what it's character truly is.

And a really good sign is it doesn't get loud when the MOAR Knob explores the upper reaches of it's sweep.
But there IS definitely MOAR of everything, well except for *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor)…

And at this stage of the amp settling in, the 'final' peak is a ways off yet, as I'm on the easy climb up rather than the quick 'sudden' changes that occur when approaching new SQ peaks.  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

There is a Latin term "Temet Nosce" which means 'Know Thyself' and I keep repeating this same behavior and so I guess I know myself well enough…

Somehow I can't resist having to re-start my 'settling in clock' because of some gee-gaw or thing-a-ma-bob that taunts me just enough so that I cave, every single time, and throw it in the amp, ya know because I can and I simply must find out…

So I added yet more (but with different 'spices' this time) Secret Sauce (*SS-v.II*) ingredients into the amp.
Yeah right in the middle of the whole previous mess of tweaks and fussings, that are still in the process of blossoming…

But I think I'll be able to live with the consequences, as the SQ differences are immediately obvious that these *SS-v.II* mods are keepers.

This time around the *SS-v.II* mix is aimed at those 'critical' portions of the circuit where the audio path all focuses down to one component on it's way from there to here (bias resistors & bypass caps, final stage PSU caps, and FETs).

And this time, these 'new spices' are aimed at the 'overlooked' components missed by the previous applications of secret sauce.
And there are a few steps even beyond this initial 'treatment' of *SS-v.II* but they are up next after I finish posting this.

Abbey Road (24bit version, meaning re-mastered) is just amazing and the amp is still in it's first hr of operation.

More later, if I can tear my J-mods off my head…   

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Uh, errrr, ummmm, ahh, well I have NEVER heard The Beatles White Album like this before (24 bit re-master, again).

And that is after adding *SS-v.II.b* to the mix.

The bass has now become thunderous and it's not just the arm behind that fist whap'n me upside my head, but the whole body is behind it all as well.
And a ways back some one (?) nominated George Harrison as the best bass player ever, period.
I think I now agree.

More later,  
*SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) session in progress…

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Nov 8, 2020)

So as of right now the Purp-Amp is headed into a ≈25hr blossom cycle.
Yesterday was really good, but not peaky good like it is turning into right now.

It's like another veil has been lifted, yet again, & again.
As in EVERY SQ aspect I pay attention to, has contributed it's fair share of raising it's portion of the bar ever so much higher.

This trend of getting EVERYthing to 'Mutha May I' rise to new degrees of SQ, is curious in that in the past during these kinds and types of tweaks it was usually one or perhaps a couple of SQ attributes that 'stood out', so to speak, as an obvious improvement.

Now EVERYthing is improving en mass and by seemingly simple upgrades and circuit refinements and of course *SS.v.IIb* 
But these current tweaks are usually only applied AFTER all of the other *CP's* (Choke Points) have been ameliorated, at the very least.
And to have them make such significant changes, repeatedly, gives me pause for thought…

But the SQ is alluring and right now is 'on the rise' and it calls to me…  hahahahahahahaha

Edit/Adder:  Béla Fleck & The Flectones album *Flight of the Cosmic Hippo* has some nice thunderous bass in many of the tracks, not to mention the banjo, harmonica, bass guitar, etc.



JJ


----------



## johnjen

By my careful pencil reckoning on the back of an envelope I figure I'm in the mid 50hr range since the last mod/tweak/upgrade.
And the SQ continues it's gradually ramping up.

I was hoping that there would be a quick/sudden upwards spike in SQ, but instead it's a slow subtle rise.
This, I would guess, is due to the quick succession of the various mods/tweaks/upgrades that preceded these last changes that are all still settling in all at different times, which tends to 'smooth' and lengthen the settling in time for the entire amp as a whole.
This in turn makes predictions of when noticeable upticks in SQ should or could occur much more problematic.

Even so I get surprised upon occasion when new nuances and the overall SQ steps up it's game as I have mentioned previously.
Still, having gone thru this type of system settling into it's 'new normal' which has in the past, all come into sharper focus in the 1-200hr range of run time.

And there are a few additional tweaks/experiments remaining on the schedule, such as the next generation of CCS circuits, perhaps new output xfmrs, etc.

However for now I'm still getting delighted with this existing circuit iteration and how it keeps upping the SQ bar beyond it's last high water mark.

When it reaches a new degree and stable delivery of SQ I'll post it here.
That is unless another mod/tweak/upgrade finds it's way into my hands and by necessity into the amp, which will also be chronicled here as well…

JJ


----------



## bcowen (Nov 13, 2020)

johnjen said:


> Edit/Adder: Béla Fleck & The Flectones album *Flight of the Cosmic Hippo* has some nice thunderous bass in many of the tracks, not to mention the banjo, harmonica, bass guitar, etc.
> 
> 
> JJ



A blast from the past!  Love that CD with the "count the cycles" bass notes.  

Here's another woofer-shredder that's seen a lot of play over the years. Some of the tracks are just plain strange, but a couple (like _South Rim_ and _Flight Over North Rim_) are seriously cool with bass that goes even lower than the 'Hippo.  Nice recording to boot.

https://www.amazon.com/Music-Grand-.../ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=


----------



## johnjen (Nov 13, 2020)

Yeah that is a really good CD as well.
And it's counterpart…



has thunderstorm claps and lightening strikes.
bhahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So yet again the 'settling in' clock has been restarted, much to my delight!    

The latest generation of our CCS's (Constant Current Sources) arrived and of course I dropped everything else to install them.
I mean what else is a dyed in the wool audiophool supposed to do?   hahahahahahahahahaha   

At first there didn't seem to be much if any difference, so there was no big ka-Boom obvious difference, but it didn't sound bad nor were there any obvious faults either.
So we go for throttle up…  

But as the 'on time' added up, new SQ peeks 'from around the corner' began to show themselves just short of the 1hr mark, and didn't stop.
Now I'm at ≈ the 6hr mark and there is obviously a new higher water mark for SQ.
But I gotta wait for more hr's to accumulate before I can fully describe the changes.

Even so the smack behind every fast leading edge is sharper with more power behind it (by comparison, it's not a fist but a foot at the end of the whole leg, well not really, but there is moar weight behind each thump to the head/body).

I'll take some pics when the 2nd pair of CCS's get installed into the lower power supply chassis.
'Cause right now it's big time listening, time.   

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So yet again the 'settling in' clock has been restarted, much to my delight!
> 
> ...(by comparison, it's not a fist but a foot at the end of the whole leg, well not really, but there is moar weight behind each thump to the head/body).



So in layman's terms then, it kicks ass a tad(ish)?


----------



## A2029

johnjen said:


> So yet again the 'settling in' clock has been restarted, much to my delight!
> 
> The latest generation of our CCS's (Constant Current Sources) arrived and of course I dropped everything else to install them.
> I mean what else is a dyed in the wool audiophool supposed to do?   hahahahahahahahahaha
> ...



What transistors does it use?


----------



## johnjen (Nov 21, 2020)

bcowen said:


> So in layman's terms then, it kicks ass a tad(ish)?


The height of the kick continues to rise and thus far has reached beyond the height of the 'standard' glutus maximus…
hahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

A2029 said:


> What transistors does it use?


We used your recommendation of the IXTP01N100D and an smd So23 BSS159N for the output fet.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Nov 22, 2020)

So as I type this the 'settling in clock' has reached ≈ 50hrs, which means tonight the SQ hopefully will reach yet more peak blossom action.

Even so the SQ has continued it's "'Mutha May I' rise to new degrees of SQ" progress and while most of the changes are, on average, subtle, every once in a while a 'new' aspect of a *'voice'* will stand out and be immediately noticed.

And there is a greater degree of power behind every *'voice'* now, and while it is more obvious in 'hard edged' percussive *'voices'*, even massed violins, cello's, horns and pianos and even softer *'voices'*, also have additional 'presence'.

And the extreme bottom has done it's part to extend downwards and reveal more 'subtlety' with a surprisingly powerful presence.
I see these changes as a continuation of my previous noted bass behavior changes and improvements.

And the often noted tendency that ALL music needs to have another star added to their 'ranking', is even more apparent.
So as I continue to dig deeper into my lowest rated albums (3 star and lower) and find more often than not that they too need to get bumped up a star.

This results in EVERYTHING, no matter the type, nor venue, nor source, becoming eminently more listenable and intriguing.
This has consequences such that the number of my albums in my 'A' list is growing larger, as 'unsatisfactory' albums are 'rediscovered' and join in with the 'gud stuff' of the 'A' list music.

And I think another way to describe these SQ improvements, can be typified by the differences between a really good horn speaker system and a set of sealed/ported speakers.
The horns can excel at 'presence', a stronger visceral exchange of acoustic power, especially in the mids where the majority of music resides.

The Purp-Amp, on HD800's, is starting to up it's game, to bridge that gap, and so is delivering an acoustic experience that has punch/power/mass behind each '*voice*' which is reminiscent of what horn speakers can deliver.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> And there is a greater degree of power behind every *'voice'* now, and while it is more obvious in 'hard edged' percussive *'voices'....*



Good!  Gooooooooood!!!!!



johnjen said:


> ...even massed violins, cello's, horns and pianos and even softer *'voices'...*



None of these exist in Marilyn Manson recordings, so.....OK, whatever.


----------



## johnjen

Yeah well ya know the 1812 overture blows Marilyn Manson out of the water, (especially with the real cannon shots going off left and right).
And (s)he ain't got nuff'n on The 9th either
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…   

And this hear is a reel guder album 2.




My fav is *Fanfare for the Common Man*

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Yeah well ya know the 1812 overture blows Marilyn Manson out of the water, (especially with the real cannon shots going off left and right).
> And (s)he ain't got nuff'n on The 9th either
> hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
> 
> ...



I love Fanfare for the Common Man.  No matter how many times I hear it, I still love it the next time I hear it. 

This one is my favorite.  Not as much bass impact or leading edge attack on the cymbals as the Reference Recording, but the horns on this version are *GPI* (*G*oose *B*ump *I*nducing...maybe should add that to the acronym list LOL!).  And every time I get that fleeting thought that analog just isn't worth the hassle any more, putting something like this on the Nottingham reminds me it **is** worth the hassle. This LP still trounces every digital version I've heard....even with the lowly Scheu wiggling in the grooves (but assuming, of course, '50's Foton 6N1P's are in the phono section of the Alana).


----------



## johnjen

I know what you mean about ALWAYS enjoying THE Fanfare… it has this elegant simplicity yet is both powerful and subtle all at the same time.
And we both know *GBI* is a thing and if either (both?) CD's trip that circuit, well It will simply have to be inducted into the Hall of *RAW* (Repurposed Audio Words). hahahahhahahahahaha 

So I found both the earlier and the re-mastered CD's (≈$7 ea.) which are even as I type this now headed my way, well, they will be tomorrow anyway…   
This will give me a chance to listen to both to see which is the 'better' CD.  

Of course neither is vinyl so that comparison will have to wait for a future phono pre-amp and re-introduction of my Linn TT into this system.  
And who knows what the system will be comprised of by then.
26's as the preamp; the 71A Purp-Amp, 45's, for HP's; & 300B's, and WE push-pull mono blocs for speakers.
All in various states of tweak.

Not to mention having the 'ultra' Tweaked Purp-Amp as the 'standard', which will continue to be modified with a few more tweaks still in the works.

This means I'll wind up with amps with 0.75w,1.5w, 5w, 25w per channel power ratings, all being driven by a 26 pre-amp with AVC's (AutoformerVolumeControl).

But right now ZZ TOP (Afterburner) is rock'n me in my chair with accompanying *HB&W* (HeadBobbing&Weaving).

Sorry no air piano, this is after all Texas R&R…  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I know what you mean about ALWAYS enjoying THE Fanfare… it has this elegant simplicity yet is both powerful and subtle all at the same time.
> And we both know *GBI* is a thing and if either (both?) CD's trip that circuit, well It will simply have to be inducted into the Hall of *RAW* (Repurposed Audio Words). hahahahhahahahahaha
> 
> So I found both the earlier and the re-mastered CD's (≈$7 ea.) which are even as I type this now headed my way, well, they will be tomorrow anyway…
> ...



You certainly have good taste in music.   I took the picture below about 3 years ago to show off the linear power supply I'd just completed, so guess what was in the player at the time? 



 .


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

With everything going on in the world, I believe this is the only song anyone should be listening to.


----------



## johnjen

bcowen said:


> You certainly have good taste in music.   snip


We could probably play one upsmanship with our music collection "*…ALL day long, I'm talking ALL DAY LONG…*"
(paraphrased to match this situation)…

Win 'King of the Internet For The Day' if you can identify the source of that quote…    

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> We could probably play one upsmanship with our music collection "*…ALL day long, I'm talking ALL DAY LONG…*"
> (paraphrased to match this situation)…
> 
> Win 'King of the Internet For The Day' if you can identify the source of that quote…
> ...





 *?????*


So much for one-upmanship.


----------



## johnjen

And our winner is…


JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> And our winner is…
> 
> 
> JJ




ROFL!!!   I can only wish that was my last boss's head at the business end of that sledgehammer.   

No worries...I'm better now. Fleeting fantasy only.


----------



## johnjen

I crack up every time I remember that scene where Jack Nicholson is in that mine, pounding away on that rock, with the prospect of doing that, ALL DAY LONG!!!!

A rather interesting movie (Goin' South) with a surprising cast.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So my 'Settling in On-clock' has just been re-started, yet again after I installed the 2nd set of our latest iteration of CCS's.
And as I type this they have ≈ 3-4hrs of running time.

And yet again, of course this assessment is only initial and will need more time for a 'full' eval.

Even so just now I heard some acoustic rumble from the room as a BAD (Big A**ed Drum) 'charged' the acoustic space of the entire room with low freq energy. And as it dissipated the subsonic harmonics shook/rumbled my head and lasted for several seconds.
Most impressive I must say.

Still the SQ is behaving much like it did after the 1st set of these latest CCS's were installed, in that it seems like it will take several 10's of hrs before full blossom action will be reached.
But as usual there could be 'surprises' along the way.

More later.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So my 'Settling in On-clock' has just been re-started, yet again....



Did you get your clock from the set of Groundhog Day?


----------



## johnjen

Well now that you mention it, I did find the 'best deal' on a suitable clock at Tyme Portals-R-us. 
They had a unique "ANYtyme" return policy, due to their "Tyme Loop" which is an unfortunate 'feature' of their tyme algorithm. 
Their marketing verbiage read, "ANYTyme is the right Tyme for anything.   

And because they paid me more when the clock was returned, than it's original purchase price, the longer I waited the 'better' the deal.  
So I figured what's not to like?  

Well, other than that pesky time looping behavior where it never started and never ended, it just kept going and going, and going…  
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Well now that you mention it, I did find the 'best deal' on a suitable clock at Tyme Portals-R-us.
> They had a unique "ANYtyme" return policy, due to their "Tyme Loop" which is an unfortunate 'feature' of their tyme algorithm.
> Their marketing verbiage read, "ANYTyme is the right Tyme for anything.
> 
> ...



   

But if you'd bought it at a later date and subsequently returned it before you bought it, would the acceleration of price appreciation apply proportionally or logarithmically?  Or inversely?  This is all so confusing...._time_ for me to have more coffee.


----------



## johnjen (Nov 29, 2020)

I figured out, all on my own mind you , that if I returned it before I bought it, one of 2.5 things might happen. 
#1 I WOULD have to pay for it so that wasn't a 'Really Good Deal' (*RGD*), IOW I'd wind up screwing myself out of a *RGD*… 
#2 It would be like dividing by 0 and the reality as we know it would collapse in on itself and so no one would be able to find a *RGD* ever again, nor even care! 
#2.5 Or I could claim I was the savior of mankind by NOT dividing by 0 and collapsing the wave (good bye) function…  

And besides the *RGD* had WAY more motivation going for it, because as we all know, us audiophools ALWAYS are looking for the *RGD*, consequences be dammed…
hahahahahahahahahahaha 

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Dec 4, 2020)

So a SQ update on the Purp-Amp.
'The Clock' is in the 30hr range and the SQ is making new strides yet again…

Yeah I know boring…  
Does it ALWAYS have to do that, I mean talk about a broken record or what?  

But in the name of SCIENCE I must push on ahead to take these SCIENCE experiments to their full completion.   
And I keep on making them all the more complex and involved, which in turn keeps extending their completion date.

But I can see light at the end of this tunnel and it appears to be getting closer.
I just have to keep reminding myself to NOT stay in between those 2 tracks.

And all of those previous posts about EVERYTHING continuing to step up and over the previous SQ peaks, by all measures, continues unabated.
Which is a continual source of delight, so I can say these latest CCS (Constant Current Sources) iterations are a keeper.

Which leaves but just a few experiments left on 'The List', with the most notable being a tweako set of custom buzzword laden output xfmrs.

Right now however the music calls to me, like a sirens song…  

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So a SQ update on the Purp-Amp.
> 'The Clock' is in the 30hr range and the SQ is making new strides yet again…
> 
> Yeah I know boring…
> ...



Time to get a spectragraph.


----------



## johnjen (Dec 4, 2020)

Like this?
https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/software/spectrafoo.html

hahahhahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Like this?
> https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/software/spectrafoo.html
> 
> hahahhahahahahahahaha
> ...



I thought @Tjj226 Angel was referring to this:


----------



## johnjen

So the Purp-Amp has reached a degree of midrange presence that makes all vocals (foreground, background, secondary, chorus, duets etc.) stand up and be noticed.
It's not that they stick out, but that their 'place' in the soundfield is now much more prominent, forthright and engaging.

And it's not just the vocals, but all the '*voices'* in those 'magic-in-the-mids' have stepped up their game and now deliver a more involving and captivating musical experience.
*HB&W*, *T3* - (Head Bobbing & Weaving, ToeTappingTime) all are in full engagement mode now.

Also there is an added 'punch' to all *'voices'* that have a 'hard leading edge' to them and some are rather surprising in the amount of added 'whack' that they can deliver.
And this at just short of 50hrs, with expected blossom action in the next day or 2.

And it seems as though *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) has started using a brand new fresh tube of superglue now with 'extra' sticky stick.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So right now I'm at 75hrs which is in the 'zone' for blossom action…

EDM (Electronic Dance Music) and OVERWERK in particular, is most impressive as it has smack (up side my head) and plenty of it.
As does classical with 'strong bass'.

But the *MitM* (Magic in the Mids) is where my attention is drawn to focus upon.

When the extremes (bottom and top end) are 'close' then, when the *MitM* 'couples and blends in' and becomes the center of focus, is when the extremes are more fully appreciated as they provide the finishing touches to where 80+% of all the music resides.

A friend recently noted that during certain portions of music, the bass reaches all the way down his spine and rattles his entire chest and abdomen.
While listening on his tweako setup with his modified 800's.
I commented that I still am not sure how that happens (having experienced it myself) other than our acoustic sensory processing capability must be 'filling in' with the 'missing' associated visceral components of sub bass.
Think of trouser flapping bass, without the trousers, nor the flapping…

In fact I'm experiencing said "bass without the trousers, nor the flapping" even as I type this, while listening to the Grand Canyon CD bcowen posted just up there ^ a ways back.  
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-123#post-15973584
A gud-un for sure…


JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> So right now I'm at 75hrs which is in the 'zone' for blossom action…
> 
> EDM (Electronic Dance Music) and OVERWERK in particular, is most impressive as it has smack (up side my head) and plenty of it.
> As does classical with 'strong bass'.
> ...



"Flapping" _can_ be be virtual. I read that on the internet. 

I *do* remember hearing that CD for the first time in a dealer's showroom in Cary, NC with the Audio Artistry Beethoven speaker system driven by some big honkin' Jeff Rowland amps. Sadly Audio Artistry is no longer a going concern, but the design mind behind them was none other than Siegfried Linkwitz. There were two main panels and 2 dipole subwoofers (meant to be placed right against the side walls) and you needed a _pair_ of accomplished stereo amps at about 200 watts each (or preferably, four 100+watt mono amps) to drive the system properly. But set up properly and amplified properly, the in-room bass response was flat down to 20 Hz, and a -3dB point at about 16 Hz.  Ever heard bass notes that make you almost nauseous?  I mean nauseous in a good way, like _"DAMN! How much will this cost me?"_ kind of good way.  LOL!  That CD goes way on down there, and if the system will produce it, the sheer power of those bass notes provides great big huge audiophile goosebumps.  


https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/328/index.html


----------



## johnjen (Dec 18, 2020)

Those speakers in their multi driver configuration reminds me of the Genesis line of speakers.
Not exactly the same but they are also designed to achieve a similar desired output.
https://genesisloudspeakers.com/

And in contrast my 0.75w/ch SET amp driving a single driver set of HP's can reach to near 10Hz and at a fraction of the cost of the Audio Artistry Beethoven speaker system, let alone the cost of the Genesis speaker systems (up to the $300K+ range).

And yes TRUE Trouser Flapping (TTF) where the the pants actually do flap in the 'breeze' and can be observed moving, does embody bragging rights unto itself, but at a cost above and beyond the audio system itself.  
Like loosening the ceiling rafters (with the accompanying falling dust), the window and door frames (they make more and more noise as they continue to loosen), the floor joists and subsequently the flooring itself will loosen and act as a drum head, along with the whole rest of the house, not to mention the houses in the nearby vicinity.   

Of course if you can afford an audio system with 6-7-8 digits of dollars, perhaps the neighbors are so far away from your stone castle that the above concerns are but a moot point.    hahahahahahahahahahaha 

Still the contrast of being able to rattle my teeth and internal organs with under 1 watt, and NOT have the police show up asking me to turn it down because, blocks away, dishes and collectable ceramic nic-naks are falling to the floor, is a definite plus in my book…   
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> Those speakers in their multi driver configuration reminds me of the Genesis line of speakers.
> Not exactly the same but they are also designed to achieve a similar desired output.
> https://genesisloudspeakers.com/
> 
> ...



AH $%^%$^%$ I forgot that I have all the parts for my planar headphones. 

I had the diaphragms safely hidden away, but all this talk about crap that cost too much money got me thinking about diy again. 

For that matter, I think I have everything for some electrostatics as well......hmmmm. 

Might be a busy weekend.


----------



## johnjen

"Maaaa, he's doing it again…"
hahahahahahahahahaa   

Lets see now, the active project count is at 14, I think…
WE ƒ'133-24 Speaker Amps (2)
300B Speaker/HP Amp
45 HP Amp
26 Pre-Amp
mystery Pre-Amp
Phono Pre-Amp
Dac
Planar HP's
Electrostatic HP's
Electrostatic HP Amp
TL Speakers
Horn Speakers
Field Coil Subs
Mystery-Hybrid-Amp

He keeps telling me 'he has a plan' and I know it's true, but we keep adding to the list…  
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> "Maaaa, he's doing it again…"
> hahahahahahahahahaa
> 
> Lets see now, the active project count is at 14, I think…
> ...



Man, I thought *my* list was bad.  You're making me feel much better!


----------



## johnjen

After all what are friends for?  
hahahahahahahahahahahaha  

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So the latest mods I've made to the Purp-Amp are wholly holey in nature.
That being the whole of this mod…  

Yeah I drilled the top plate for lightness, and for additional transparency, and venting,
well sorta…  

Actually I added 7) 1/4" holes to the Amp section top plate and 3 holes to the top plate of the PowerSupply in the vicinity of the heat generating CCS's and cathode resistors.

This in turn has further stabilized the B+ from the CCS's and subsequently the voltage stability across the 71A tubes.  

Now really the amount of heat this amp makes is minuscule and the hottest I've ever measured the top plate (excepting the tubes themselves) was 115ºF (46ºC) as the peak, which is warm but not hot by any stretch…  
And that was at the cathode resistors (≈3.6w each).
The new CCS heatsinks are dumping ≈ 2.2w each for a grand total of ≈12w for the vast majority of the heat being generated by the entire amp, well except for the 3 tubes which don't contribute very much heat at all, as the 71A tubes never get hot enough to even melt a plastic bag.  

The top plate never even got above ≈120ºF as a peak temp, and in only 2 or 3 spots while the 'average' temp was in the 90-100ºF range.

BUT there was precious little air flow inside the cavity where the analog section resides.   
And as it turns out SQ is more related, not to peak temperatures, but heat saturation and heat flow away from the sources of heat.  
This is where air flow over hot surfaces comes into play.

Even small amounts of air flow can significantly increase the amount of heat shed via convection, which is where the wholly holes come into play as they allow the heated air to rise and escape thru aforesaid wholly holes.  
AND the flow of air, even as slight as would pass thru 7) 1/4" wholly holes, has lowered the measured top plate temps down to 113ºF from 120ºF, with the CCS 'hot spots' dropping down from a peak of 150ºF to ≈138ºF and even lower over the majority of the heat sink.  

Of course this is a 'rough' 1st trial at not 'trapping' heated air with little chance of 'escaping'.
I may get a wild hair and get one of those tiny low CFM fans and play with what happens if I deliberately huff-n-puff air inside the analog cavity, just because I can.  

Of course it would be cheaper and easier to just drill more holes, which would also reduce the road hugging weight of this ≈ 50lb, 3/4w/ch headphone amp.  
But of course I need to let the amp settle in to these new thermal conditions and evaluate the SQ changes before I go wholly hog wild with my step drill and make swiss cheese of the top plate.  
hahahahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So another update & SQ report.

As I write this I'm listening to 'vintage' Rolling Stones from the 60's thru to their latest album.
And this collection (The - Forty Licks) has been re-mastered so there is that added degree of clarity and lack of the original mastering distortions, which does help raise the bar in terms of actually wanting to listen, w/o cringing like the original vinyl renditions of these early recordings.

Even so those original recordings, regardless of the mastering employed, have all taken a decided step up, along with everything else.
So the SQ has steadily risen and drug that SQ bar along with it.

And as usual all of my favorite descriptors have stepped up as well.
Which translates to the remaining veils are becoming ever more threadbare and falling apart.
And there seems to be several of these veils, all doing the 'fade out' routine, as more and more of the inner details become clearer and more focused and obvious that they are more *REAL*…

One of the newest more interestingly noticed SQ traits is the ease of listening to intentional distortion that musicians use to create 'a sound' that can capture the 'message' they want to convey.
Think 'effect pedals' like waa-waa pedals, along with additional harmonics and distortions that add richness to the '*voice*' they choose to create etc.
These effects often are just heard as having a 'hard edge' or extra 'zing' etc.
Now these effects have an air of distinction and intrigue which was missing before.
A most welcome change for the *'better'*.

All in all I'd say this hole experiment, in getting more holey, has on the whole, been a success.
And to date I have not succumbed to the swiss cheese syndrome of punching holes, semi randomly, on the top plate, based upon the theory that if a little is good, MOAR Has To Be Better!!!!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha   

Next up and possibly the final mod, are new 'custom', mass tweako, output Xfmrs.
This could be the end of a long developmental cycle of tweaking to find out what can be done to optimize a low powered SET HP amp.

Of course this opens the door for a complete re-build of this circuit to dial in the placement of the circuit components for an optimal 'flow' of the music thru the circuit.
But I don't want to get ahead of myself… 
hahahahahahahahahaahhahahaha  

JJ


----------



## bcowen

Thanks for that!  I've always loved the 'Stones, but the recording quality on *all* of the original LP's was just wretched. I don't consider myself an 'audiophile snob' where I'm not even going to listen to something unless it's a good recording, but the 'Stones took it so far into the land of crap that it was just impossible to enjoy the music.  The MFSL remasters were better, but still not great.  I'll give a listen to Forty Licks now, so thanks!

And speaking of resolution, ever listen to any Justin Johnson? Anybody that can make a guitar out of a shovel and then make it wail has my respect.   A lot of his tunes have a lot of "artistic" guitar amp overdrive. Without the resolution it just sounds distorted. _With_ the resolution, you can easily hear that it's intended overdrive to add to his desired effect.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks for your suggestions.  

I'm searching on Qobuz and listening to what they offer.
And Justin does seem to use "guitar amp overdrive" with aplomb and his band equally 'gets with the program' as well.

And yeah being able to hear into the distortion lends an added degree of 'you are there-ness' to the music that I really like.
This degree of resolution also allows all forms distortion to be heard for what it truly is AND helps me identify it's source.
Like the mic being pushed, or the mic preamp, or the the mixer console going into overload, (think early Rolling Stones, which has ALL of these) etc.

Each of these types of distortions has it's own 'signature' or acoustic response that is unique and different, and when several all happen at the same time, that's when it gets REALLY fascinating.

This added resolution is also changing the overall acoustic space for each track and in ways that are not only hard to describe but in ways that are unexpected as well.

MOAR REALNESS fer shurrr…

hahahahahahahahaaa  

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Feb 4, 2021)

So all this time I've been letting the entire system 'get used to itself' or perhaps it's more like me getting used to it, or a combo deal…   

There is a persnickety low level (≈ -45dB) crackle/kzzztt sound from the right channel that comes and goes and is really only heard when no music is playing.  
The key voltages I've been tracking and adjusting, to keep them in their respective 'sweet spots', have bigly stabilized and are staying much closer to their target numbers.  

But the BIG news is the SQ has risen to such a degree that the "crackle/kzzztt sound" is meaningless and doesn't matter.
Like at all.  

Especially noticeable are the *LEDI* (Leading Edge Dynamic Impacts) such as percussive hits, that now have additional smack to them.
Even acoustic guitar plucks with nylon strings have more pluckyness.  

And the extreme bottom end has sharpened up it's extension and so the amount of inner detail has risen to new heights as well.  
Normally the very extreme bottom has limited inner focus and delineation which is why it is seldom mentioned, let alone achieved, especially on speakers where subsonic bass is 'problematic' to begin with. 
But HP's can avoid these complex room interactions and can punch well below what would be considered possible.  

The '*voices*' themselves, along with their contribution to the soundstage, (either real or studio created) have melded into a seamless whole, which is another way of saying the 3d location of each '*voice*' and the influence it has on its acoustic surrounding, have merged. 

The term 'seamless whole' is apt as the entire soundstage contains all '*voices*', and it too contributes as a distinct portion of each '*voice*', yet it integrates them all.
This produces pin point, location specific 3d triangulation of each '*voice*', as the music plays and things change, as in 4d.

It's like each *'voice'* has embedded within it, it's own acoustic space, which determines it's 'REALNESS'. 
This system now focuses it's created acoustic energy, to an ever greater degree to where it belongs and specifically NOT where it shouldn't be.  

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Feb 27, 2021)

So of late the system has refined itself so it's getting nearer and nearer to the SQ of the system I experienced back almost 50yrs ago in college.

It has a similar acoustic space projection and intimacy along with even more surprising bass inner detail, focus, and extension.
But these same traits also extend upwards so the entire audio bandwidth has a degree of effortless homogeneity and cohesion all the way up.

One way this can be perceived is, each '*voice*', regardless of what or where it is in the mix, has presence and isn't 'pushed aside' by louder '*voices*'.
IOW each '*voice*' has 'standing' or is heard for what and where it is in the soundstage, regardless of how many other '*voices'* there might be.

To date I haven't quite reached the individuation of massed strings (orchestra) down to each 'voice' in the string sections, but I'm still work'n on it…
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha 

But with less complex music (fewer *'voices'*) the delineation is delightful.

There is one sonic test that I have yet to reach as of yet however.
There is a particular 'voice' in the Stevie Wonder's album _*Talking Book*_ track _I Believe (When I fall In Love It Will Be Forever)_ where a series of finger pops are heard.
Back in the day we heard the musician inhale and stick his finger in his mouth and then pop it.
I can hear the 'voice' do the pop but not the rest of the sonic event, and instead of a finger pop it sounds like a wood block strike.

This is a most subtle distinction as most wouldn't think that it wasn't anything more than a wood block strike, but that isn't what is actually happening.

I'm hoping that the planned for new tweako output xfmrs will help this amps resolution to the point where I will be able to hear the inhale and finger pop again.
This would be the attainment and culmination of a long standing goal of mine, to re-create the acoustical experience of a *CNST* (Central Nervous System Tap) once again.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So another insight into more of what the SQ has morphed into has popped up on the radar and made itself known.

One of our (us audiophools) modes of listening is to 'drill down' into a song and focus upon a particular *'voice'* to determine how well it is being presented coincident with being able to perform this 'test' upon any and all *'voices'* at any time.

This is a way of being able to figure out just how well the system can present all of the *'voices'* one from each other so we can differentiate them and evaluate the degree of 'smearing' and 'overlap' between them all.
It's a handy technique we can use to evaluate the 'health' of the system and to employ to help figure out if changes (tweaks/mods) actually help or not.

But right now this system has surpassed the need for this sort of regimen, as the whole of the soundfield and acoustic 'stage' has become far more involving and captivating.
IOW the entirety of the musical performance, of each piece of music, as it progresses and holds me captive, is far more intriguing than utilizing analytic and evaluatory 'tests' and the like.

The experience of being caught up in the music and letting it carry me along exceeds the need to even want to spend the time to want to analyze anything.

Reaching this degree of SQ is surprising in that it 'snuck up on me' seemingly from out of the blue, but is most welcome.
Even albums that before had a lack of compelling SQ, have now become FAR more inviting.

This fits right into one of my goals, that being to be able to play ANY music without having to choose only those 'chosen' tracks that are favorites due to a 'lack of interest' in the rest of the tracks because they were 'uninteresting' (didn't 'grab me')…

So back to more of my collection that has remained obscure and under appreciated…

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So another insight into more of what the SQ has morphed into has popped up on the radar and made itself known.
> 
> One of our (us audiophools) modes of listening is to 'drill down' into a song and focus upon a particular *'voice'* to determine how well it is being presented coincident with being able to perform this 'test' upon any and all *'voices'* at any time.
> 
> ...


Yes.

I first experienced “ANYMUSIC” after purchasing Yggy and feeding it files via Dante Ethernet/AES (2016). Sometimes I may sit down and seek a particular album or music type, or maybe see what new stuff Tidal is putting out.

But more often nowadays, I’ll just click on something. After a few minutes, that’s what I’m going to listen to. With NO desire to find something “better”. And as you describe, genuine system improvements (linear PS for Dante, Uptone boards and PS for my Mac Mini) make that satisfaction consistent among recordings, time of day, etc.


----------



## johnjen (Mar 8, 2021)

Say there gefski.
And yes this consistency of SQ, no matter the condition of these other variables (day vs night, quality of the recording etc.), which used to sometimes significantly alter the satisfaction of the overall presentation, make for a much greater 'worry free' experience, as in no more wondering just what I'm going to get this time…

And when coupled with this newly added sense of acoustic freedom from feeling the need to 'evaluate', it just throws the doors wide open for a more satisfying musical experience all the way around.

And the interesting thing is, once experienced there is immediate recognition to it's presence vs. lack of same.
But to those who haven't experienced this level of SQ, these words may not have much validity nor real meaning…

Such is the range of experiences in audio.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Say there gefski.
> And yes this consistency of SQ, no matter the condition of these other variables (day vs night, quality of the recording etc.), which used to sometimes significantly alter the satisfaction of the overall presentation, make for a much greater 'worry free' experience, as in no more wondering just what I'm going to get this time…
> 
> And when coupled with this newly added sense of acoustic freedom from feeling the need to 'evaluate', it just throws the doors wide open for a more satisfying musical experience all the way around.
> ...


The problem you face now is knowing when to stop.  Once you hit that 'magical' place, it's always hard to resist trying to make it just a bit _more_ magical and end up losing the magic you had. Don't ask me how I know this.


----------



## johnjen

Been there done that…   
D'oh…  
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…  

'Too much is never enough…'
'How high is UP?'
'When is good enough really enough?'
'I may not be able to describe it but I'll know it when I hear it…'
'A man has to know his limits'

All of these and more have been tested and approximate limits and boundaries established.  
Of course that doesn't mean I won't blow right past them with the resultant, D'oh… yet again…  
hahahahahahahahahahahaha  

Even so I always make changes so I can reverse them and go back to 'better' if need be.
And once you get 'spoiled' (I call it getting calibrated) it establishes a 'high water mark' of sorts and sets a 'goal' to shoot for.

And having a target to shoot for provides context and a relative gauge as to where on the SQ chart of excellence I'm currently at. 

Besides I am 'in the cue' for a custom set of tweako Output Xfmrs for this amp.
And as the saying goes what you are really listening to, are not the tubes, but the Output Xfmrs, and getting a set of 'exotic' dialed in (as in optimal materials with matched input and output impedance) OPT's to match this circuit, should prove to be icing on the cake…  

And if this final major circuit tweak pushes me over the edge, well I expect I'm gunna be REALLY surprised either way…  
hahahahahahahaha   

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Mar 13, 2021)

So tonight I had an addendum to the addendum to the above post about some of the previous ones…    

These latest changes to the cohesiveness and the compelling nature of the acoustic presentation, has condensed down to this…  

The SQ has reached to such a degree, where the playback of any track is so focused, that the ongoing now moment, as the music plays in real time, captures my full attention to the point that the any diversion away from this focus on the music, AS IT PLAYS, detracts from the direct involvement of being in the music itself.

IOW the playback has reached a point where it has a 4D presentation (with image Length, Width, Depth, and passage thru time) that has fully stabilized and remains consistent to the degree that nothing else matters. 
The dynamic experience leaves no room for any other mental activity, nor any desire to even attempt such distractions away from the music itself.

This was and is an unexpected development, though in hindsight it seems like a 'natural progression' from the previously noted SQ improvements.  

*SDSG*++++ (SuperDuperSuperGlue)
Indeed.  

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> So tonight I had an addendum to the addendum to the above post about some of the previous ones…
> 
> These latest changes to the cohesiveness and the compelling nature of the acoustic presentation, has condensed down to this…
> 
> ...


Our very own Rod Serling!👽🪐 HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## bcowen

gefski said:


> Our very own Rod Serling!👽🪐 HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!



ROFL!!!   But that's nothing....we've discovered petrified aliens over in the Darkvoice thread.     

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-551#post-16235465


----------



## johnjen (Mar 25, 2021)

In previous posts, as in way back, I had talked about the observable sonic trait of needing a certain amount of continual listening time in order to get the music to 'click into place' so to speak.

I had noticed intervals of 15-30 minutes and 45min to 1.25hrs, and even at 2hrs ± 0.5hrs where the SQ seemed to just 'leap ahead' as if all of a sudden the music just came into a finer focus and everything took a mutha may I step up.

It was surprising and sometimes startling how quickly this transition could happen.
Like in the few seconds between tracks, seemingly all of a sudden, the SQ just bellied up to the bar and said 'howdy is this better?'

This 'trait' never fully went away, but did recede while I was dialing in the Purp-Amp.
But recently this 'trait' has returned to prominence, but is manifesting differently now.

Before, it was as if the focus was on individual 'voices' as they became more sharply defined and more detailed.
Now, it's the entire presentation with everything contained therein that becomes more 'alive' and *REAL*.
As if the the focus has shifted from hearing down into the music and it's various parts, to hearing the whole of the music along with all of it's parts intact as a whole and not a collection of 'parts'.

And currently as a result of these latest changes, I'm thinking that this SQ shift for the better, after a certain amount of time, is actually a 'natural' brain function as it 'learns' how to interpret the incoming auditory data feed, and seemingly like an iterative loop, coalesces into a more refined auditory experience.

I was curious about this sonic trait and it seemingly falling into the background for a while, but now it has returned and the % of change to the overall SQ has risen and in a more 'compatible' way.
By that I mean the changes are not about the improvements themselves (Hey look at me…!), rather they manifest as the SQ of everything has risen seemingly equally in all of those acoustic and sonic attributes and aspects I have come to 'key on'.

To me this is yet another 'consequence' of this amp getting out of it's own way and letting more of the REAL SQ thru.
IOW it has had sufficient time to fully settle in and is able to deliver SQ that has pushed its high water mark of SQ to within heavy breathing distance of the very best I have ever heard.
And there is that one last remaining mod to make which could close the gap on this scant distance…

But in the mean time I continue to be surprised by what I'm hearing, from music I am VERY familiar with…

Just like I like…

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So it's been awhile since I fussed with the setup and just spent this last month listening.

It has been ever so revealing as my 'A' list albums get cycled thru my day to day play list and the net changes to the SQ have revealed themselves.
The satisfaction of listening to these most highly rated tracks has raised the bar such that, as I stated before, I don't mind the occasional 'circuit noise' that tries to intrude in the quiet passages.
But I have implemented yet another experiment to see if I can quell the nuisance of the 'circuit noise' which thus far seems to be helping, but as usual this latest tweak will need more time to 'prove itself' or not.

What have I done now?
Well, I've installed a very low speed, low cfm, low noise, small fan which is blowing on the 'hot spots' of the circuit.
It has bigly dropped the temperature of the top plate which the 71A's cathode resistors use as a heatsink, as well as blow over the CCS regulator heatsinks and other heat generators.

So I had to also fuss with the voltages and bring them back into the 'tweak zone' and while I think there has been a SQ change for the 'better' it's rather subtle, at least at this point anyway.
I would think reducing the temperature of the hot spots should yield a SQ improvement, just because, but the circuits may need their usual settling in time, much like a parts swap etc, in order to tell.

Still these sorts of tweaks can initially be more difficult to tell if a net SQ improvement can be heard, unlike the more direct parts swap mods.
Fortunately all I have to do is unplug the fan for a session or 2 to find out if I can hear an improvement, while ignoring the primary reason for this experiment in the 1st place.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I recently found a tweako matched pair of nearly new 1933 Arcturus 071A blue tubes.




If you squint and put on your polarized shades it might help to read the very faded date code of APR 20 1933, which makes these tubes 88 years old.
And judging by their measurements and looking at the wear on the pins, these tubes are nearly new and are rated at 115% & 116% of new.  

I win BIGLY…  

More pics later.

JJ


----------



## bcowen

johnjen said:


> I win BIGLY…



Or _did_ you?


----------



## johnjen

Well I certainly know these tubes are not Fkd …
hahahahahahahahahahaha



But the substitution process is far more complicated now that the tubes in use have been hard wired in place.  


A close up of the internals that can be seen.

These Blue Tubes are rather rare for a whole bunch of reasons but oh so worth it…

JJ


----------



## BIG POPPA

Right on JJ!!


----------



## johnjen

So I'm in the middle of the 1st of a couple of tests using the Purp-Amp as a test mule.
I've pulled my SR (Synergistic Research) SR20 fuse and Shinyata power cable and replaced them with a SR Red power cable and a beeswax fuse.
I cooked the Red SR power cable on the cable cooker for ≈72 hrs and now have about 72+hrs on this power delivery setup and I must say I'm impressed.

Enough so that I've re-cooked my modded Shinyata power cable and I'm in the process of rounding up a 3 more fuses to test and compare to the beeswax fuse in the amp right now as I type this.

I've been holding off on diving head long into the top tier of SR's fuses mostly because they are absurdly/stupidly expensive, and especially since they are an expendable component.

But the amp is ready to reveal VERY subtle differences such as those provided by such final tweaks as fuses and power cables.

So I'm gunna get one each of a SR Black & Blue & Orange fuse and test them with 5 different power cables just to see what I can determine.

The power cables are SR red, SR orange, Shinyata power cable with tweaks, a Zaphino Ultimato, and one of my home made power cables using 2 single strand solid core (14awg) wires per circuit (6 wires total).

So the adventure continues as further tweaks get evaluated.

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

> But the amp is ready to reveal VERY subtle differences such as those provided by such final tweaks as fuses and power cables.
> 
> So I'm gunna get one each of a SR Black & Blue & Orange fuse and test them with 5 different power cables just to see what I can determine.



Psssssst. Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssst. 

You do realize upgrading your power transformer is a thing right? In fact getting a larger VA transformer will do a LOT more to lower your PSU impedance than the power cable or a fuse. 

Just saying.


----------



## johnjen

Ouuuuuu  another line of experimentation into optimizing this amp.

Now I just need to figure on the sizing to see if I can shoe horn a bigger torroidal mains xfmr inside the 'allotted space'.

JJ


----------



## gefski

johnjen said:


> Ouuuuuu  another line of experimentation into optimizing this amp.
> 
> Now I just need to figure on the sizing to see if I can shoe horn a bigger torroidal mains xfmr inside the 'allotted space'.
> 
> JJ


Just build a bigger room...


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> Ouuuuuu  another line of experimentation into optimizing this amp.
> 
> Now I just need to figure on the sizing to see if I can shoe horn a bigger torroidal mains xfmr inside the 'allotted space'.
> 
> JJ



Sure. But getting copper foil caps throughout the amp is probably even better. 

Or even better yet would be a power regenerator. If we could get a reliable and stable wall voltage throughout the day, we could reduce the complexity of the psu by quite a bit.


----------



## johnjen

gefski said:


> Just build a bigger room...


NOW we're talk'n
MOAR POWR!!!!!
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So copper foil caps would mean the 'foot print' would get bigger, as well as it would become even more of a 'high rise' amp than it already is.
I mean this amp is already 14" tall…
And that would probably make me re-name it 'The Tower of Power Amp'.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So copper foil caps would mean the 'foot print' would get bigger, as well as it would become even more of a 'high rise' amp than it already is.
> I mean this amp is already 14" tall…
> And that would probably make me re-name it 'The Tower of Power Amp'.
> hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> ...




Maybe, maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors.

You could always get a ~300Va transformer, a pair of tvcs, and some 50 watt resistors to get rid of most (if not all) the capacitors and the rod coleman regulators and the filament power supply.


----------



## johnjen (Jun 6, 2021)

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Maybe, maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors.
> 
> You could always get a ~300Va transformer, a pair of tvcs, and some 50 watt resistors to get rid of most (if not all) the capacitors and the rod coleman regulators and the filament power supply.


Hmmmm, I'm thinking to myself…

This would mean a complete re-wire and all new top plates etc.

Hmmmmm, I'm thinking to myself…

And it reminds me of Hedley Lamarr's cogitative expressionism…
"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaa    

Not to forget the new OPT's that are inbound…
They may be enough of a cherry on top such that I can choose another amp project to dial in, and so keep this amp as is and just enjoy it all the while using it as a SQ standard to aim for by the 'next' project in the cue to meet or beat …

Hmmmmm, I'm thinking to myself…    

JJ


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> Hmmmm, I'm thinking to myself…
> 
> This would mean a complete re-wire and all new top plates etc.
> 
> ...




The real solution would. be to figure out a way to use a mosfet instead of a resistor in this topology http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/10/ux201a-sound-processor-part-1-circuit.html

Theoretically, you want virtually 0 impedance from the plate to ground. Obviously you have to have some sort of a load, so the best we can hope for is to replace the 500 ohm resistor with some type of SS device with low impedance and no gain from one terminal to the next. 

The power through the device would be your plate voltage (180v) minus your filament voltage (5V) times your filament current (250ma). You end up finding out that your wattage across the device is 43.75 watts, which means both channels would be dissipating 100 watts all the time. 

The device would need a heatsink with a fan. It's definitely over the top, but it's not undoable either.


----------



## johnjen

Ah yes the 100w room heater that also provides 0.8w/ch of sublime audio, what's not to like??
hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha   

And at NO additional cost to me the consumer, well other than the redesign, with a whole mess of new parts. 
So all of this could be the next gen of the all new, all the same, all different Purp-Amp-II.
Aka The-All-New-Completely-Redesigned-And-Improved-Runamouk-Amp
er sumpt'n.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  

Still upgrading to the 300va mains xfmr is eminently doable AND is cheaper than one of those $100 fuses to boot.
But as mentioned there are new OPT's inbound and I'm think'n they will make the most significant difference of ANY (and in any combination thereof) of the above tweaks, by far.

Which reminds where in the Manly Tube-Mans Manual it sez*…
"You're really NOT listening to the output tube, no not even.
You ARE listening to the output xfmrs…!"

*Except all OTL amps of course… 
The Manly TUBE-MAN's MANUAL Manual Pg. 34,786 chapter 45,689, subsection 35,009, part 345

And besides that dual set of matched DHT's circuit has my mind in a cogitative expressionistic state, as immoralized by my mentor Hedley Lamarr…
"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaa    

What's not to like?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


----------



## johnjen

So I figured while I'm waiting for the test of the power cables and fuse to fully settle in, I'd 'hook up' my LCD 2's since I can now attach the earpads to them and Big Poppa (thanks Gil) loaned me a set of suitable cables (stock LCD cables suck).

And I plugged them into the Purp-Amp and surprise, they play loud enough for testing even with this minuscule amount of available power.

And I definitely need to let them settle in much more.
Because right now they aren't even close to my gen-6 800-Jmods.

They have a definite mid-fi sound, albeit the upper end of mid-fi but they have a major case of lack.
As in they lack,
the extreme bottom end, 
mid range body, 
top end finesse, 
and a soundstage with real depth and a 4d presentation.

But they are pleasant with nothing 'sticking out' which would be a cause to relegate them to their box.
But to be fair I should let them accumulate more hrs of playing time to see if they come out of hiding, so to speak.

I was surprised at their bass, as I was expecting a degree of authority down low, but while it does have some 'thump' its rather one dimensional and has traits of 'One (or 2) Note Bass', meaning the sound is missing harmonic texture in the very bottom end.

But they also violate one of my essential requirements in that they do touch my outer ears which 'muddies the sound' a bit.

I do hope they morph (for the better) as the play time adds up.

JJ


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## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> So I figured while I'm waiting for the test of the power cables and fuse to fully settle in, I'd 'hook up' my LCD 2's since I can now attach the earpads to them and Big Poppa (thanks Gil) loaned me a set of suitable cables (stock LCD cables suck).
> 
> And I plugged them into the Purp-Amp and surprise, they play loud enough for testing even with this minuscule amount of available power.
> 
> ...



Fix the ear pad seal and the bass will come back in force.


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> So I figured while I'm waiting for the test of the power cables and fuse to fully settle in, I'd 'hook up' my LCD 2's since I can now attach the earpads to them and Big Poppa (thanks Gil) loaned me a set of suitable cables (stock LCD cables suck).
> 
> And I plugged them into the Purp-Amp and surprise, they play loud enough for testing even with this minuscule amount of available power.
> 
> ...


Since you had the Hedds for a while, what’s your memory based description of its sonic personality compared to your 800?


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## johnjen

gefski said:


> Since you had the Hedds for a while, what’s your memory based description of its sonic personality compared to your 800?


The Hedds were sonically rather similar to my 800's and more so than I would have expected.
Their sonic traits were so close it surprised me, especially their soundstage presentation and bass extension and midrange texture etc.
I expected them to sound like planars even though they aren't and that is probably what surprised me the most.
They had much more resolution and finesse than planars, even brand new and with out 'enough' break-in, which is why they seemed more similar to the 800's than I was anticipating.

I really wanted to fuss with them and at least  try a 'better' cable and a few other tweaks but alas that wasn't going happen so I don't really know how well they would do when 'optimized'.

But they did have the same 'problem' as the LCD's in that they did touch my outer ears and so that hampered their performance as well.

And overall I could see owning a pair of Hedds rather than LCD's because of their driver, and in spite of their nomination as a candidate for the Princess Leia look alike contest.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaa

JJ


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## johnjen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Fix the ear pad seal and the bass will come back in force.


I'm not sure if that is the problem, unless there is a magic secret to making sure they are sealed.
The pads are attached and I don't see where there could be a 'leak'.

Like does it take something like bungy cords wrapped around my head to suck them onto the sides of my head just to make sure they are sealed????
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  

Inquiring minds and all that…
JJ


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## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> I'm not sure if that is the problem, unless there is a magic secret to making sure they are sealed.
> The pads are attached and I don't see where there could be a 'leak'.
> 
> Like does it take something like bungy cords wrapped around my head to suck them onto the sides of my head just to make sure they are sealed????
> ...



You have already done the test so to speak. None of the audeze have weak bass UNLESS the ear pads are not making a proper "seal". Seal in this case is kind of a broad term meaning any situation where the ear pad is not interfacing with your head as intended by the manufacturer. 

If those pads aren't laying perfectly up against your head, the bass will drop off like a rock. 

It's not like they need to have a suction cup effect against your ear, but they do need to fit. I would recommend looking into replacement pads to see if anyone has made pads with slightly larger ear holes.


----------



## johnjen

Ah, gotcha…

So the seal from the earpad to the head is where the bass comes and goes.

So I have pushed the earpads into my head and fussed with the angle to get maximal contact into the sides of my head and I can hear nothing substantially different between that and the LCD-2's just sitting on my head and that is from both amps (*Purp-Amp/The Rok Amp*).

And its not like the bass isn't there, but it isn't MOAR nor even as extended, and impactful as the 800-Jmods which is sorta what I was expecting since they are planars…
And the mid range is, well planar mids, which is pleasant enough and all, but lacks the finesse of electrostatics and Good dynamics (e.g. 800-Jmods).
And granted I'm comparing highly tweaked 800's to used and strictly stock (except for the 30AWG Nordost Heimdall 2 cable), so this may be an unfair comparison right from the start.

So I'll let them cook a while longer, just to hear if there are any further changes.
And I might make up a larger gauge set of wires as 30AWG (0.27mm), which is bordering on itsy-bitsy, teeny-tiny wires and for a ≈70Ω load which seems rather far to small for my liking.

JJ


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## johnjen

So one of my testing regimens is to start off with the 'new guy' at the start of my nightly multi-hour listening sessions.

Late at night is the 1st time I get to 'listen' (with focused attention) all day, and other than the desktop horn speakers for 'background' music, this is my uninterrupted 'free' time to drill down into the differences or evaluate changes etc.
And so by starting out with the new guy I give it a chance to 'make an impression' on me.
IOW do I start danc'n in my chair, playing air piano, yank the lanyard on that cannon, listen to a tube amp give it's all, as it melts down thanks to Daft Punk, etc?
 Which is often the case, or so it seems.

But then I swap back to 'the old standard' and listen to the differences.
And so I hear…
What is missing
What is 'added'
What 'sticks out'
Which soundstage is 'better'
Can I understand ALL the lyrics?
The list goes on, (see my sig line for my words in *BOLD)*

And what I heard tonight is a fairly thick veil was noticed on the 'new guy' and it screwed with the acoustic space of every track I listened to, regardless of the type or nature of the music.
It sorta sounds like a 'tunnel effect' where the music is at the other end of an acoustic space that is constricted instead of it 'filling the available space'.

It wasn't unpleasant nor off-putting, it just wasn't as REAL, it didn't sound like I was engrossed in listening to music, rather I was listening to a decent hifi system.

I can see why some would like this as it doesn't do any thing wrong, but at the expense of NOT doing some things right.
And if those 'right things' are not on your list of desirable acoustic attributes, well then it’s a win-win-win all the way around.

And of course it could be that my setup isn't an ideal match for these LCD's.
But one thing seems abundantly clear, the signal being fed to them is capable of sublime detail and presence, especially when I yank on that lanyard…

JJ


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## johnjen (Jun 20, 2021)

So I went and done did it…

I took my Shunyata power cable apart and cut it in half to make 2) 3' cables.



And in case you're wondering yes this cable had been previously modded with new rhodium connectors.
And this cable was recently cooked for 60hrs.

And now it has become 'The Stubby' (the dog is for scale).
hahahahahahahahahahaha



So I replaced the SR Red cable that was on loan, with 'The Stubby' and listened for just last night.
I was immediately impressed and as the night wore on and the settling in continued, it became apparent that things had shifted.

Just how and if these changes are 'better', or not, remains to be determined, but if I immediately get impressed, that is usually a sign of good things to come.

Now it's time for tonight's deep dive into the music.

JJ


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## johnjen

So a report on the initial findings of the cables and fuse I was testing with my Purp-Amp setup.

And to put these results in context, I'm comparing them with my Shunyata cables which have been modded (what else is new, right?) so these 'starter cables' are being compared to cables that have been dialed in, cooked and tweaked with various blends of 'secret sauce' which is probably unfair right from the start.
So keep that in mind as these cables and fuses I'm testing are significantly less expensive and are not likely to be an improvement over my existing setup.
BUT…
These comparisons will provide a relative measure of what this gear can provide for those who adhere to these kinds of tweaks (to some, snake/shark oil), and for significantly less than what my 'high priced do-dads' cost.

The Zaphino power cable has a 'soft' character which would do well with some SS gear that has a bit-O-zip or pizzaz on the upper end.
It does tend to add a bit of a veil but not all that much.

The SR red cable was fairly close as well but lacked the extreme bottom end (below ≈25Hz and all the way down.
The bass they did deliver was pleasant enough but again lacked a bit of harmonic richness throughout.
The mids and up were rather surprising and did a good job of 'painting' the soundstage in 3d.

But the real surprise was the Create Audio Premiere gold/rhodium fuse.
It was detailed, had resolution and was remarkably close to my SR20 fuse, but it did 'need' the AKIKO fuse chip (a variation of a WAQy fuse chip that I use with my SR20 fuse) to close the gap in performance.
And for ≈$26 (+S&H) was a real contendah.

And now that I am running with my Shunyata cables again (after being cooked) the differences noted above were fairly obvious, yet subtle and not a 'hit you over the head' sorta way, well unless you're already aiming for that 9/10 or better level of SQ.

And I have just got my grubby mits on a SR orange fuse to test (thanks Big Poppa for the cables and fuses for these tests), and the bar has seemingly been raised, yet again.
This is yet another one of those love/hate situations where spending over $100, for an expendable and disposable part, just gets my goat and yanks on my sensibilities with vigor.
Still there is no denying the SQ improvements much to my delight AND disgust, aka, caught on the horns of a dilemma.

And along with this SR Orange fuse I have another cable to cook and 'burn in'.
It's a Cardas Clear Reflection (mini-Stubby ≈20") power cable with their new New NEW ($200 each) IEC and 2 blade U-ground connectors.

It WILL have an advantage being so short and all and it's a 'herk'n' cable at 5/8"diameter with 11.5AWG conductors…

But for now I'm gunna let the SR Orange fuse settle in and see just how much change this version of their fuses makes.

JJ


----------



## johnjen

Well tonight as I type this the Orange fuse is lighting up the SQ, as in, there is moar THERE, There.
There is a sizeable increase in visceral impact from bass in particular but is not limited to just that range of the audible spectrum.
This translates as; each *'voice'* has more 'authority', *REALNESS*, presence in the 4d space, but neither does any voice 'step on' any of the other *'voices'* either.

AND I got the 1st pic of the build of my new OPT for the Purp-Amp.
To wit…







The original pic has additional resolution so you can see each individual wire of that wrap.
In a word, 'Impressive' (hear it in Darth Vaders Voice…) 


JJ


----------



## johnjen

And now these OPT's are ready for testing and the final assembly.

They are made with big nanocrystalline cores and use OCC copper wire.




I'm a think'n these custom OPT's, which are designed just for this amp, are gunna push the SQ over the top and finalize this amp project.

I'm just itch'n to install them in the Purp-Amp and hear the differences between good and exceptional OPT's.

JJ


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## Tjj226 Angel

johnjen said:


> And now these OPT's are ready for testing and the final assembly.
> 
> They are made with big nanocrystalline cores and use OCC copper wire.
> 
> ...



And to think that some people spend thousands of dollars flying to france to go see the Mona Lisa when all they have to do is buy some transformers to see real beauty.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> And to think that some people spend thousands of dollars flying to france to go see the Mona Lisa when all they have to do is buy some transformers to see real beauty.


ROFL!!!


----------



## BIG POPPA

And normally this is a Tuesday................


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## johnjen

Um that seems a bit obscure, so ya wanna explain?

JJ


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## BIG POPPA

johnjen said:


> Um that seems a bit obscure, so ya wanna explain?
> 
> JJ


The things we do day in and day out in this hobby.


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## johnjen (Jul 15, 2021)

*tLFF* and It’s Relatives
In 4 Parts – Describing my investigations, findings, and significance of this well known yet little understood common audio complaint.

Drilling down into *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor)

Part 1

So back in 2015 I wrote a few posts that wound up in the HD800 thread, and until the other day when I stumbled upon my stored links to them, they had remained buried and forgotten about.

Until now…

An interesting subject, Listener Fatigue…
Everyone has heard of it, or knows what it is if they have spent too many hrs listening to music and they just need to stop and take the HP's or IEM's out and 'go quiet'/do something else, for a while.
Listener fatigue is when you reach for the *DRC* (Dynamic Range Control, aka, the volume control) to turn it down because there is an 'irritation' of some sort.
It may not be eye squinting nor face scrunching but somethin' just ain't right…

It's kinda like that 4 letter word describing the content in adult magazines, we just know it when we hear it.

*tLFF* is or can be subtle but can become rather apparent especially during longer listening sessions.
But very few have a 'definition' of just what constitutes Listener Fatigue, where it comes from, or how to lessen its affects etc.

And as I continued on my journey to learn what I could, I found some deep insights and how I could use *tLFF* to my advantage and apply what I learned along the way to improve my SQ.

So these next few posts are what I learned when I jumped down this rabbit hole.

My original writeup started out with a comment by @knowhatimean that I answered concerning the influence that external grills have on the soundstage and other factors such as the common use of foam and other dampening materials to quell the ‘bad resonances’ of the HD800.

_“knowhatimean said: _
_There is a reason it sounds wider. Some of the available "width" info is being "masked" be the "resonance" that the grilles were causing.(Spatial cues are much easier to hear when you start removing mechanical colorations that the headphones are producing)_

_Joni Mitchell sums this up perfectly in the lyric from "Big Yellow Taxi" …”You don't know what you've got til it's gone !””_

 And my (edited) reply…

Um, that may or may not be the ‘source’’ of the pinched width of the sound stage.

My SAA modded 800's have no shelf liner, creatology foam, felt, nor inner covers, and the spatial cues are pinpoint precise and expansive, where the recording calls for such.

I suspect there are 'other' influences at play.

But what I do notice as a result of all of these (Anax & SAA) mods, is a major reduction in *tLFF*, which 'allows' me to turn up the *DRC*, to 'higher' levels before I reach 'too much' and don't wish to go any higher, mostly due to the lack of ‘comfort' level of the SPL (Sound Pressure Level). 
When *tLFF* is improved, by whatever means, the SQ raises accordingly. 
I hear this as an increase in the degree of being ‘in focus’, for the entire acoustic presentation. 
And interestingly, as *tLFF* is improved, this 'additional' degree of being ‘in focus’ remains quite evident, even when the *DRC* is lowered.

What this allows is a greater dynamic range in the playback of the music, which in turn increases all of the subtle cues (spatiality, and all the other related harmonics associated to each instrument/voice), not to mention better bass due to our hearing's natural volume increase of the low end, as the overall SPL is raised. 

And there seems to be another 'mechanism' at play as well.
As the ‘Choke Points' (*CP’s*) in the entire system are ameliorated, the overall 'get out of its own way' factor 'allows' for a more accurate original signal to arrive at the transducers, in the first place.
And.
As we reduce the transducers ‘unwanted/undesirable’ acoustic 'traits', this can also 'allow' more of the actual signal to be heard, because these ‘bad’ traits no longer act as a 'mask', which means the need for further masking the mask, can become both unnecessary to begin with, and unwanted.

But as we all know improvements to the transducer (speakers, headphones) are usually the most effective.
And these types of mods, such as adding masking with foam/felt, experimental removal of 'extra' parts (grills, etc), have been popular forever. 
And further it is also commonly held that these sorts of improvements can sometimes be quite significant, as is the case before us.
So it can be a challenge for us DIY’rs to figure out the ‘best’ balance between different mods.

Which has led me to the understanding that as further *CP’s* are removed from the system, it is able to resolve to even greater degrees of inner definition, and be able to deliver 'more' of each instrument/voice, with a greater sense of acoustic 'realness' as the level of precision and resolution is increased.

And there is another thing I’ve noticed, namely, as our systems become more and more precise and resolving, it becomes all to easy to assign causation of the undesirable sonic traits, to an incorrect originating source of the 'irritation'.
But not always… 
For instance,  some believe the 800's  have a 'resonant?' peak in the ≈ 5-8KHz region and that is the source of their ‘problem’.
Or (fill in your favorite example here)…

But with any reduction of the causes of *tLFF*, the apparent overall sound level seems to lower at the same time that the *DRC* has been raised.  Which is rather curious, if you think about it. (I raise the *DRC* and the volume seems to lower????)  

Because now, to reach the same level of tLFF as before the last improvement to *tLFF*, the *DRC* needs to be increased, even further…

It sounds like the acoustic presentation seems to present less ‘energy’ (SPL). And due to the reduction of the causative factors of *tLFF* and other *CP’s*, the available acoustic energy seems more tightly ‘bound’ to its original ‘parent’/source.

Which points back to the perceived decrease in the Dynamic Range, because while there is less ‘smeared’ acoustic energy (since more of it is ‘bound’ to its acoustic source), the amount of silence between individual notes for each instrument/voice/source of acoustic energy, has increased. 
And so there is a greater amount of time where less acoustic energy is being generated, and we can perceive this as lower SPL.

IOW, when the total amount of available acoustic energy is aligned and associated more precisely and accurately with its original source, there is more complete coupling of the original sonic signal to its re-created acoustical parent, which also means there is less acoustic energy where it doesn’t belong.

Which is another way of saying the sound level seems to drop due to the reduction of tLFF, as the entire system has gotten ‘out of it’s own way’, all the more.

And, "You don't know what you've got til it's gone !" indeed!  :thumb


This was the introduction to the next part which gets much more involved and lengthy.
So I turned it into two separate posts, and added an addendum which makes this a 4 post topic.


So on to part 2.

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 2, 2021)

Drilling down into *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor)

Part 2 of 4 – Describing my investigations, findings, and significance of this well known yet little understood common audio complaint.

Hmmmm, let’s see…

I stumbled upon *tLFF* as I was tracking changes, over time, of the SQ of my system as it ‘aged’, while performing ‘experiments’.  I noticed that sometimes I could crank up the *DRC* (Dynamic Range Control, aka volume control) way more than other times before a degree of listener discomfort kicked in.  So I started to track this ‘variability’ in my daily log.
And what I started to notice were the patterns I mentioned in part 1 of these *tLFF* posts.
Namely as *tLFF* was lowered, I could crank up the *DRC* more than when *tLFF* was ‘high’.

IOW, right from the start as *tLFF* was lowered the *DRC* could be increased, and vice versa.

But what I came to realize was the reason the *DRC* went up is because the acoustic energy was more closely coupled/bound to it’s parent/‘source’, which is what happened as tweaks and such were made.  These changes, after ‘settling in’, resulted in lowering *tLFF*.
This resulted in closer coupling of all the acoustic energy that an instrument makes such that it is more precisely timed and presented to my ears, and this results in the actual acoustic musical signal being more faithful to the original.  Not in terms of FR but rather in the presentation of the dynamic energy of the instrument that I hear.

An example.
Stick your head near a piano or drum set or other percussive instrument while it is being ‘vigorously’ played.  What you will experience is the ‘power’ of the impacts, the percussive effects, the energy that is being created and ‘imparted’ into the acoustic environment.
This creation and release of energy, is based upon the excitation of ‘tuned’ resonant components that further create sub and supra harmonics which are all ‘created’ as a direct consequence of the initial energetic injection of power by the musician. 
Namely when the stick hits the cymbal or drum, the hammer hits the string, etc.  This ‘starting point’ for that note, and especially the subsequent harmonics that are created, are what we use to identify not just what the instrument is but which note, how ‘loud’ it is, what the acoustic environment is, how near or far away in 3d space, etc. 

We can identify these things because we have previous experience (we ‘learned’) what the acoustic ‘thumbprint’ for a particular instrument sounds like.  And as this acoustic signature is changed, by whatever means, there is a deviation from original acoustic energy signature.
IOW we can tell a tack piano from a grand, from a standup etc. and we can tell when it is close miked or from a greater distance away because the resultant sub and supra harmonics change accordingly.

All of these subsequent harmonics are created and released into the acoustic environment in their proper time, because they are a function of the creation of that initial energetic pulse and are ‘time aligned’ to that source.
IOW they are bound to it, because they are created by it.

When this subtle time aligned acoustic collection of frequencies are skewed or delayed or stretched out thru time, the original acoustic energy has now become ‘smeared’ and no longer properly combines all the acoustic energy to that of it’s parent.
IOW the acoustic energy we hear being presented to our ears is out of synch from it’s original creation.
This ‘smearing’ or spreading out the acoustic energy tends to ‘fill in’ where there should be a lack of energy or where that energy simply didn’t originally exist in the first place during the dynamic creation of the original signal.
This makes the original source sound out of focus, as in, the subtle cues and harmonics are ‘Fat’ or spread out.

THIS is my vote for *tLFF*

Where the acoustic energy is not presented ‘properly’, either by omission or by being ‘out of synch’, because either it does not present the full and precise original energetic acoustic signature and/or more acoustic ‘artifacts’ have been added. 

And these changes/additions seems to come from 2 basic ‘sources’.
The first being the playback equipment adding ‘distortion’ of some sort, of which many are well known (IM, THD, FR etc.).
The second being a specific subset of #1, that being, that the original acoustic energy is being presented (heard) out of synch from its original source (phase shift, slew rate, zero crossover etc.).

All due to changes to the re-created signal that are heard. 
Even if the original recorded signal is distorted to begin with.

Oh yes and let me be ‘clear’ here.  This isn’t just about digital music playback.  If *tLFF* truly is all about the music being out of synch with itself, think about what happens when the diamond tip ‘reading’ the groove walls isn’t aligned ‘properly’? 
The 2 channels of information become ‘time smeared’ if the VTA and azimuth aren’t adjusted ‘properly’. 
Think screech and *tLFF* gone berserk, especially on poorly recorded vinyl…
And power amps (strictly an analog device) seem to have as much of a role to play in contributing to *tLFF*.

And of those 2 basic sources there appear to be 2 specific contributions to tLFF that stand out.
The first factor is during the re-creation of the analog signal, and the second is during the ‘delivery’ of this signal.


On to Part 3

JJ


----------



## johnjen (Jul 6, 2021)

Drilling down into *tLFF* (the Listener Fatigue Factor)

Part 3 of 4 – Describing my investigations, findings, and significance of this well known yet little understood common audio complaint.


All DAC’s use mathematics to re-create the original musical signal, likewise a diamond tip ‘reads’ the groove wall, or the tape head ‘reads’ the magnetic flux modulation, etc. 
These re-creation methods and related devices are all performing a change of state from one medium to another (usually into an analog electrical signal). 
And these energetic translations/changes of state from digital, or mechanical, or magnetic to electrical, along with their compliment, the electrical to acoustic energy translations, are always the most critical in terms of ‘getting it right’ (accuracy, precision, resolution, etc.).

And since this initial change of state is the very basis for the signal to start with, if it isn’t ‘properly’ handled, no amount of corrective action will ever ‘fix’ the signal.  Well, other than substituting with ‘better’ devices and/or processes.

Secondly, faithfully delivering that signal and then completing this energetic change of state into acoustic pressure contributes it’s own variety of *tLFF* contributions. 
This second contributor to *tLFF* is something we can actually deal with on a less than wholesale replacement of major components (amps, dacs, cartridge etc.) basis.
Indeed this is where most of my tweaking’ has yielded the most bang for the buck.  And which also significantly affects new major components as we ‘upgrade’ our systems as well.
And a large percentage of these improvements are gained from the amp and its ability to ‘properly’ couple with the driver. 

And what I have come to know is that as we lessen these ‘errors’ while generating acoustic pressure, and/or allow more of the original signal to come thru, *tLFF* is reduced and the SQ takes a mother may I step up as more and more of the available acoustic energy is aligned and then ‘properly’ presented/heard during playback.

The list of influences or tweaks I’ve experimented with, that contribute to the improvement of *tLFF* are, for some, hard to believe, and/or for others seem to be outright dubious.

And to make things even more ‘complicated’ there does seem to be a threshold that needs to be crossed before these changes become evident. 
IOW if the system is ‘clogged’ with *CP’s*, (Choke Points) and unless you ameliorate a major clog, there is a good chance you may not hear any change, mostly due to masking/smearing of acoustical energy where it doesn’t belong.  This is a common observation made by many who try only one ‘upgrade’ like a power cable or interconnect cable, and hear no differences.  Of course there is the distinct possibility that the attempted ‘upgrade’ simply wasn’t up to the task. (i.e. it wasn’t a sufficiently better cable etc.)

But once this threshold is reached it can initiate a cascade effect where EVERYTHING starts to make a difference.  But even initially this can lead to much confusion and frustration once a change IS noticed, because now determining if it is really an improvement, or just a change, becomes the deciding factor instead of just IS there any change.

And so now a whole new set of evaluatory decisions must be brought into the picture and become familiarized and applied and refined. 
It’s like a whole new ball game.
And it can get complicated quite quickly as the degree of ‘the system getting out of its own way’ continues to improve which results in more and more transparency.
This is where EVERYTHING can start to loom large. And where identifying just which *CP’s* are making their presence heard, becomes a matter of experience.

This is precisely where the 800’s come into their own.
They are such precise transducers that even with a ‘clogged’ system, ‘artifices’ are all to easily heard and then the job at hand is to ‘fix’ the problem(s).  And the more that any of the 800’s unwanted contributions are ameliorated, the more the rest of the system’s undesirable attributes come into focus.  Which are sometimes attributed to the 800’s themselves.  But there is usually a commensurate increase in the inner details and focus, as more and more of the system continues to ‘get out of its own way’.
And since the 800’s have a degree of precision that is highly scaleable, which can help tame some of this complexity, they can help provide a ‘stable’ reference point with from which to ‘stand on’ and proceed onward from.

And *tLFF* has, at least for me, become a most useful tool in terms of determining if changes made are actually beneficial improvements or are just changes.  There are of course other tools that also can help and the combination of these tools allows me to more quickly determine what is a desirable change, and if an actual removal of *CP’s* occurred, which did lessen the *tLFF*’s influence.
Or not.

Another way of perceiving this is to view it as an exploration into scaleability and how well the components scale upwards together.  I have come to understand that as *CP’s* are ‘removed’ or diminished in severity, the task now becomes how to determine if the resultant changes really are ‘better’, or not. 
And when there is an obvious improvement, as in ‘OH MY DOG’, or ‘I’m hearing my music as if it were the first time’ etc. this provides solid evidence, at least to me, of a marked improvement in the overall resolution and that the system has ‘gotten out of its own way’ all the more.
IOW, scaleability just took a significant step up, and EVERYTHING sounds better.

*tLFF*, *I5* (Intelligibility, *HB&W*, *T3* (Head Bobbing & Weaving, Toe Tapping Time), among others, are all sure signs of improvements of scaleability. 
And 800’s are hugely scaleable, and it appears more so than much of the gear available to us today.

This is a decided double edged sword in that as the* CP’s* and other system deviations are removed, those that remain seem to loom large(r), which can be quite frustrating. 
On the other hand once a degree of resolution is reached and the SQ is refined ‘enough’, the SQ has stepped up and away from what we have experienced in the past, so now we are now exploring previously unexplored edges of the envelope. 
Which means we are now navigating in somewhat unfamiliar acoustic territory.

But it also means as fewer and fewer *CP’s* remain, the overall SQ continues improve.
As such we are discovering new/additional nuances and subtle details of the presentation of the music, as we continue to hear it all anew, as the veils and unwanted ‘artifacts’ are removed.

This of course could be the DIY’rs curse — forever removing artifacts… 
Think Sisyphus

JJ

On to the Last Part


----------



## johnjen

Drilling down into tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor)

Part 4 of 4 – Describing my investigations, findings, and significance of this well known yet little understood common audio complaint.

The Last Part
This is an addendum to the original posts.

It deals with a very specific type of *tLFF* namely overshoot.
And specifically overshoot as it applies to speakers and more pointedly at headphones.

The experimentation I focused upon with my HD800-Jmod’s Gen-6 was aimed at reducing the overshoot that was designed into them, on purpose and with intent.
I arrived at that conclusion after several years of fussing and receiving some feedback concerning some of the 800’s design criteria.

But the net effect of reducing the amount, but not all, of the existing overshoot was a HUGE reduction in *tLFF*, and along with the associated SQ changes/improvements that accompanied this tweak the end results are nothing short of amazing.

I have written posts that go into more detail concerning what my 800-Gen6 mod wound up being, 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/page-90#post-14608836
but I found that overshoot when applied too liberally, creates significant *tLFF* all by itself, enough so that when significantly reduced these 800’s can simply deliver astounding SQ.

And yes far more than just the 800’s are involved, but as a major *CP* (Choke Point) all unto itself, its amelioration was simply a stunning SQ improvement in all areas of SQ that matter to me and remains so even as I type this.

So I consider overshoot, especially when it’s the marketing department that determines that too much is just enough, makes for a tragic choice for a design criteria for a SotA (State of the Art) piece of gear.

And while some overshoot seems to be ‘necessary’, with very few exceptions, every one of the HP’s step response that I looked at, for its overshoot characteristics, had FAR to much.

To me this one single overused design criteria is the single reason why we haven’t busted thru into that next generation of ‘Better’ SQ in SotA HP’s, that has been taunting us all for far too long now.

So to wrap up this topic of *tLFF* and it’s attendant acoustic relatives, when your listening sessions can go on and on for hours and your HP’s are seemingly glued to your head and there is NO DESIRE to do ANYTHING but listen to tunes, ala *SDSG* (SuperDuperSuperGlue) your *tLFF* is VERY low and that is the time to crank on the *DRC* and listen even deeper into the music where there be nuances to be appreciated. 

Just like I like.


JJ


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## johnjen

NEWS FLASH…
beedeep-deep…

This just in…

My custom OPTs are in final assembly and testing and are looking good man…





And for those who understand techno-specs…
Here are the final measurements:

Low signal frequency response - 4.2Hz - 70kHz ; -3dB ; 2k Rgen ; 32R load

Primary inductance: 60.5H
Primary Idc: 20mA
Max power at 25Hz: 2.6W

Impedance ratio: 7.6k to 32R

Other possible secondary connections: 72R ; 128R

Leakage inductance = 5.4mH
Grounded secondary overall capacitance = 750pF
Cs + Ls resonant frequency = 79kHz

Primary Rdc = 184R
Secondary Rdc 32Rtap = 1.2R

And with a bandwidth of -3db from 4.2Hz - 70kHz from the 32Ω secondary taps,
and if I read the graph correctly its ≈-1dB from 10Hz to 40KHz, this is quite impressive for a set of OPT's regardless of source.





I'm jazzed to say the least.

JJ


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> NEWS FLASH…
> beedeep-deep…
> 
> This just in…
> ...


Sweet!  I kind of understand some of the specs (-3 dB at 4.2 Hz? Dang!), but those look so cool the specs are kinda irrelevant.


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## johnjen

Yeah with under 10 hz available at the low end, my existing kicka** bass should definitely take a step up, not to mention with the use of OCC wire wrapped around nanocrystaline cores, the phase response, FR linearity, when delivered from 60H of inductance, all should contribute to a very immersive listening experience.

And yeah they visually DO look rather impressive and unique to boot.

I'm already figuring how they will look after being mounted on the top plate.

JJ


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Yeah with under 10 hz available at the low end, my existing kicka** bass should definitely take a step up, not to mention with the use of OCC wire wrapped around nanocrystaline cores, the phase response, FR linearity, when delivered from 60H of inductance, all should contribute to a very immersive listening experience.
> 
> And yeah they visually DO look rather impressive and unique to boot.
> 
> ...


But the burning question remains:  have they been quantum tunneled?


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## johnjen

No not yet.   
But I have a PLAN… 

It is but one ingredient of my full secret sauce recipe along with sprinkling my frozen tears over them (cryo treatment) and the thermal cycling treatment and the hi-freq cancellation treatment, along with the too secret to mention stickerator treatments.  

And all of these combined will be applied during the re-build of this amp while optimizing the component placement and thus minimizing the length of my wire with gain for zero loss of ANY of my precious electrons. 

And research has shown that the loss of our precious electrons is an under reported problem of epidemic proportions which has been plaguing the audio community for decades now.  

But I have a PLAN…  

JJ


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## Lolito

Could anybody point to any link or source where I can see how a MINI XLR connector (for an audeze or meze headphones, for example) should be soldered properly. The regular 4 pin XLR big connector to the amp, that I have seen it solder a few times and there is plenty info on youtube, but those mini XLR that has 4 pins but only 2 cables, there must be like a right way to do it, so that it is a more resistant job, or something like that? any help would be welcomed, thanks.


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## bcowen

Lolito said:


> Could anybody point to any link or source where I can see how a MINI XLR connector (for an audeze or meze headphones, for example) should be soldered properly. The regular 4 pin XLR big connector to the amp, that I have seen it solder a few times and there is plenty info on youtube, but those mini XLR that has 4 pins but only 2 cables, there must be like a right way to do it, so that it is a more resistant job, or something like that? any help would be welcomed, thanks.


The below is for Audeze and also works for ZMF (not sure about Meze).  I don't know what (if any) importance there is to tying pins 1 and 4 together and pins 2 and 3 together.  Pin 1 is the positive and pin 3 is the negative (or ground) for each earcup.  I made a cable for my ZMF's using just pins 1 and 3 and leaving 2 and 4 bare-naked for each connector and it works just fine.


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## johnjen

Other than making the 4 pim miini-xlrs universal (sort of) by tying pins 1&4 and 2&3 together for audeze and zmf or any other set of cans that use this arrangement, it would drop the Ω thru these connectors by ≈ 1/2 which isn't really a big deal due to the actual amount of current involved in the 1st place.

However I would NOT wire up the 3 pin xlrs by tying pins 1& 3 together for a truly balanced connection…
Pin 1 is chassis/shield ground and pin 3 is (-)signal which should NOT be tied to ground.

JJ


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Other than making the 4 pim miini-xlrs universal (sort of) by tying pins 1&4 and 2&3 together for audeze and zmf or any other set of cans that use this arrangement, it would drop the Ω thru these connectors by ≈ 1/2 which isn't really a big deal due to the actual amount of current involved in the 1st place.
> 
> However I would NOT wire up the 3 pin xlrs by tying pins 1& 3 together for a truly balanced connection…
> Pin 1 is chassis/shield ground and pin 3 is (-)signal which should NOT be tied to ground.
> ...


Hmmm.  Not sure I understand.  There are only 2 incoming wires into each cup's mini-XLR (for the ZMF anyway).  Pins 2 and 4 are not connected to anything in the cable.  If I solder a jumper between 1 and 4, and a jumper between 3 and 2, how does that reduce the resistance?  Technical idiot question....


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## Tjj226 Angel

That is a really stupid connector for headphones.


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## johnjen

In reality the audeze 2's and 3's that I have only use 2 pins (of the 4) so jumping the other pair of pins is pointless.
In fact that was what I was going to do (use all 4 pins) with my 2's & 3's but audeze glued the cables into the wood 'body' of the earcups.
That really isn't totally a bad thing, and actually from a reliability pov makes lots of sense…

However it also means I don't have access to the unused pins to be able to use them to reduce the pin to pin contact resistance by using all 4 of those pins in those connectors.
And many would argue that this amount of resistance coupled with the amount of current being sent would/should make no difference to the sound.
And using stock audeze cables I would agree, but then we all know the stock audeze cable is 'sub par' to begin with so no wonder opting to use all 4 pins (if it were even possible) is pointless.

But when using aftermarket cables this 'limitation' may be noticeable, however I can't verify one way or the other because those 2 extra (unused) pins are not readily modifiable.

Mores the pity…

JJ


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## johnjen

So the latest word on my super tweako OPT's is they should be shipped early next week.

I'm still jazzed!!

JJ


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> In reality the audeze 2's and 3's that I have only use 2 pins (of the 4) so jumping the other pair of pins is pointless.
> In fact that was what I was going to do (use all 4 pins) with my 2's & 3's but audeze glued the cables into the wood 'body' of the earcups.
> That really isn't totally a bad thing, and actually from a reliability pov makes lots of sense…
> 
> ...


I have a Norne audio cable incoming for the ZMF's.  Be interested to see whether pins 2 and 4 are connected in it.  And I have no idea if those pins are connected inside the ZMF earcups...guess I'll put a meter on them and see.


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## johnjen

I would hazard a guess that since they are 300Ω HP's that they only use 2 pins and not all 4…

Just say'n is all…

JJ


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## johnjen (Aug 11, 2021)

I have a tracking number  fiwibida, fiwibida (that's supposed to be a tongue flapping at you…)
hahahahahahahahaha.

JJ
geez the smilies on this site suck, like in big time.
Have I mentioned this recently?


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> geez the smilies on this site suck, like in big time.
> Have I mentioned this recently?


Not that I remember. but then I don't remember what I had for breakfast this morning.


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## johnjen

I can relate because there are 2 parts of the day, Lightime and Darktime and sometimes they seem to blur or blend together.
And it doesn't seem to matter because I do the same things in both of them, which can make for compounding confusion!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## johnjen

Just a quick update.
I'm still waiting for my tweako OPT's to clear customs in NY where they arrived up on Aug 17th with nary a peep since.

To say I'm both disappointed and anxious is an odd combination of emotions.

JJ


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## johnjen

If only.
If only I had waited 1 more day.

Because my tweako OPT's from Bulgaria are due in tues or wed (today or tomorrow).

WooHoo…

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> Just a quick update.
> I'm still waiting for my tweako OPT's to clear customs in NY where they arrived up on Aug 17th with nary a peep since.
> 
> To say I'm both disappointed and anxious is an odd combination of emotions.
> ...


Suspicious package for sure.


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## johnjen

It was only a day late,
BUT,
Not a dollar short.

These big bad boys showed up today and they are even more impressive in person than what the pictures portray them to be.
To wit…

The unboxing experience in the pink…
hahahahahahahaha



 And now the glamor side by side shot…


and the closer end view shot…


And the spec sheet and frequency response graphs





Transplant surgery will commence when the time is right, meaning when I can arrange a solid single chunk of time to drill holes and re-route wires, but it should be rather straight forward.

Hum-boy-howdy…

JJ


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## Tjj226 Angel

Nah, test it with alligator clips. If it really is better, measure the dimensions of the bolt pattern and send it to me.


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> It was only a day late,
> BUT,
> Not a dollar short.
> 
> ...


Sweet!!!!


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## johnjen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Nah, test it with alligator clips. If it really is better, measure the dimensions of the bolt pattern and send it to me.


Yep I can confirm the alligator clips do grab each terminal…   

But to a certain extent temp wiring with alligator clips would even be more of a challenge than just wiring them in since the amp would wind up on it's side and what with the B+ dangling, and with curios cats and hi voltage, and alligator clips tendency to want to want to 'slip'…
And the fact that 'better' is going to take hrs of break in time…

Besides we're only talking about drilling 12 more holes to the top plate…
What could go wrong…???  
hahahahahahahahahaha  

And while I do enjoy a challenge, the mess that cats can make when they decide to make an emergency exit, while impressive in one sense, is usually an expensive lesson, especially with 1940's vintage tubes in the vicinity…  

The dimensions of the bolt hole centers, as measured and double checked by the included templates are…
Short side = 66.8mm  (down each side)
Long side = 74.3mm  (across the terminals)
And the diagonal = 100mm



Now it's just a matter of when the drill motor gets to create shards of curly razor sharp debris, all the while with me studiously avoiding drilling holes in my legs…
It’s a take off on that wise old saying 'measure twice and cut once…'
Except this time it's position, check position, re-position, check position, check again, then drill, but have bandages at the ready…
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JJ


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## bcowen

johnjen said:


> Now it's just a matter of when the drill motor gets to create shards of curly razor sharp debris, all the while with me studiously avoiding drilling holes in my legs…
> 
> 
> JJ


Have you tried putting the chassis on a workbench when you drill rather than on your lap?  I know, sounds weird and all....


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## johnjen

Now what fun is that?
Some peoples kids these days think they have ALL the answers…  (fibita-fibida and other effluvia spewing noises)    

Because see, I have to figure out where to mount them from the bottom, studiously avoiding wires, caps, CCS boards, and stuff.
Which in turn means I'm going to mark the hole locations where the sun don't shine, so to speak…
If you get my drift…  

And since the locating punch mark is down at the bottom of the inverted chassis which is actually up, but underneath, that is where the holes get transported into the top plate.

And while I would dearly LOVE to use my extendo-reach drill press for said holes, those 1940's tubes in close proximity to herk'n rotating cast iron parts makes me more nervous than a suddenly awoken fraidy cat in a room full of really interested dogs.
hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha   

JJ


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## johnjen (Dec 10, 2021)

So I finally installed the new Xfmrs and I'm listening to them as I type this.

It took WAY longer to shoehorn them onto the top of the chassis, and along the way a few wiring mistakes were made.
Nothing catastrophic nor was my supply of replacement smoke required but there were a few head scratchers along the way…

BUT I must say the initial impression (like the very first hr) was emotionally engaging, to say the least.

EVERYTHING has taken a mutha-may-I step up.
Imaging, resolution, soundstage, freq extreme nuances, bass impact, the list goes on and on.

And It should give me a MUCH better of how much as I reach ≈10hrs of playback time.






These are big boys and add a considerable amount of weight, enough so that I need to make sure it doesn't tip over when I lean it over to tweak the  bias and filament voltages.

Back to listening…

JJ


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## johnjen

So an interim SQ report.

Thus far I have ≈ 10hrs± on these xfrms and a few bias and filament voltage adjustments later, the amp is settling in as expected.

The SQ is revealing itself to be enticing and smooth with an inviting character, in that it grabs my attention and simply won't let go.
There is moar inner detail everywhere, top to bottom, from inside out, and each 'voice's' soundstage presence has stepped up along with their full harmonic nature and subtle inner details (think moisture on the breath for vocals).

LEDI (Leading Edge Dynamic Impact) has become especially more prominent, and for every 'voice' from cymbals (those little rivets on the edge are just dancing around) to guitar plucks, to piano attacks, to kick drums etc. they all now have moar impact AND additional nuances in terms of their harmonic under and over tones.

There is a slight loss in efficiency of about 2-3dB which means a step or 2 more on the MOAR knobs are needed to achieve the same perceived volume.
And on the other hand it seems that I can crank it to even greater volume with less listener fatigue, which is an unexpected bonus (not that I listen at 100dB+ volumes very often).

And since this is the 1st time I've installed a new set of xfmrs and then listened as they settle in, independent of any other changes, it will be interesting to find out how much time it will take for them to fully stabilize and what the net total of the changes will be in terms of SQ.

But thus far I am quite impressed, and gratified, and intrigued, and curious to determine what all of the changes these xfmrs will yield, both sonically and wrt circuit stability etc.




JJ


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## gefski (May 26, 2022)

We moved a year ago and are in the middle of some remodeling. Since we are adding a couple rooms in the basement (bathroom and a small 11 X 11 room, I planted my Head-Fi flag squarely in the small room. It will be a “quiet room” for Head-Fi listening. Looking to post what I’m doing, I searched Head-Fi for room treatment, but the threads here are about speaker rooms. My room won’t be treated for speakers; rather it’s about keeping noise from adjacent rooms, overhead, and hvac from entering in the first place. So just throwing out some of the things I’m doing if anyone else might be interested in some effective ways to quiet the ambient noise down. This is, of course, the time to do it — since we have to have it framed, sheetrocked, door hung, anyway the additional $ for my tweaks is minimal.

Two walls are concrete, so it’s got some advantages right off. Kilmat (made for car sound) applied to HVAC duct really dulls the sound when rapping on it. These ducts are among the worst sources of ambient noise. Eliminating it was not an option, since it serves heating and cooling to living and dining room upstairs. Selectively using rock wool around it. Exterior and interior walls and ceiling are insulated with R15 fiberglass batts. Almost all homes and remodels are not insulated between rooms & floors. Adjacent plumbing and drainpipes wrapped. Putty pads around outlets that could transmit sound. 5/8” sheetrock instead of 1/2”.











Instead of an interior door, I’m using a basic steel exterior door as it has insulation, sill, and weatherstripping all around. All gaps in the pre-hung will be insulated/filled. Using Trademark acoustic sealant (dries rubbery) behind trim & molding. Two dedicated AC lines with Hubbell fixtures that I like. Recessed can lights in ceiling are cool enough to have Kilmat applied and insulation touching. These led lights won’t be on when listening, just table & floor lamp with conventional bulbs. Filling every other gap I can find. Already a quiet house in a quiet neighborhood, so looking forward to some “great escapes”.


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## johnjen

Say there gefski I hope eastern Wa is treating you well.
Very kewl indeed!!

A trick I learned a ways back is to rubber mount the cold and hot water pipes where they are anchored or touch any frame members or other 'hard' surfaces.  This keeps the pipe rattle when faucets etc are opened or shut 'quickly' (toilets, showers etc.) from transmitting said pipe rattle from being transmitted to 'drum head' surfaces (walls. ceilings, floors).  
I saw the pic of the 1 (hot water?) pipe that was already dressed with rubber insulation, but couldn't tell if the clamp itself was rubber isolated from the pipe as well. 

And having a 'quiet' listening room is ALWAYS appreciated.

And have you tried the 88.2 vs the 44.1 SR trick yet?
Just curious is all.

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> Say there gefski I hope eastern Wa is treating you well.
> Very kewl indeed!!
> 
> A trick I learned a ways back is to rubber mount the cold and hot water pipes where they are anchored or touch any frame members or other 'hard' surfaces.  This keeps the pipe rattle when faucets etc are opened or shut 'quickly' (toilets, showers etc.) from transmitting said pipe rattle from being transmitted to 'drum head' surfaces (walls. ceilings, floors).
> ...


My 88/44 SR listening was inconclusive. But it was before we moved, were disorganized, and it was brief. Thanks for reminding me. After settling into the new room, I will go with 88 for say, a couple weeks, and just forget it. We‘ll see what I experience in what matters — true timbre, touch, instruments and voices in (perceived) space, alive dynamic presence. Then a switch back to 44 for a few days should be informative. That’s the only way I get to these meaningful differences.


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## johnjen

👍
👍
👍

JJ


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## johnjen

sad news.
My 71A Purp-Amp has more or less died.
Well the amp is fine but the 80+ year old Arcturus 71A's are noisy and no longer matched, like at all.

This means I'll need a complete re-do with another pair of 80+ year old tubes..

And on top of all that my main computer has gone thru a complete re-do as well and I'm rebuilding EVERYTHING, like the apps, bookmarks, emails, etc, etc.

Way too much fun.

JJ


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## gefski

johnjen said:


> sad news.
> My 71A Purp-Amp has more or less died.
> Well the amp is fine but the 80+ year old Arcturus 71A's are noisy and no longer matched, like at all.
> 
> ...


Well, the Purp-Amp is a beauty, so I think the tube search and re tweak WILL be fun.

….and the computer re-do definitely un-fun (speaking for me).


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## westsenkovec

I don't know where to ask so I'll post it here.
A guy locally is selling the Audeze lcd-4 headphones that don't work. I don't have the details yet so I don't know if one side doesn't work or both or maybe it's the cable.
Anyways, I know it's a paperweight but I would love to own it and I dream about fixing it. Is it doable? Can the driver be bought or even swapped? I assume the warranty ran out. Do planar drivers fail with time?


----------



## johnjen

My experience with the LCD's albeit the 2's and 3's is, the only way to 'fix' them i to send to Audeze for driver replacements
It will set you back 'several' hundred dollars, and they wouldn't offer to sell me just the drivers so it's them or nothing.

And in my case yes, it was the drivers themselves that died, which seems a common mode of failure for the LCD's.

I hope this helps…        JJ


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## westsenkovec

Thanks. If the price is right sending them for repair might even be an option.


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## johnjen

So it's been a while since my last check in…
and a few things have changed…

I do have several spare 71A tubes in matched sets and one is a set of Arcturus blue bulbs, my favorite flavor. 
And I have figured out how to easily remove my set of experimentally 'hardwired' 71a's.

I have been listening to my new (used) set of HiFiMan HE500 cans and of course modding them almost from the start.
The stock cable is, much like the stock Audeze cables, mostly worthless, so I hardwired them with a Litz 20 gauge 1.5m balanced cable, and just recently removed All of the remaining wimpy 27 gauge wiring much too my delight.
Getting rid of all that wimpy wiring really helped these cans, way more than I expected.

I've added EQ with a 15dB boost at 15Hz with a broad Q of 0.52 which may turn out too be a tad to much, so I'll probably scale it back a bit, but the extreme low end is mighty impressive, I must say, as it causes me to laugh out loud when a deep bottom end bass lick hammers my head.

I have a few additional mods 'in the cue', such as titanium mesh outer covers, reducing their overshoot, and trying different varieties of modified ear pads.
And thus far I'm quite impressed with these cans as they are the best sounding planar's I've yet heard, as I've never been all that impressed with any of the Audeze cans I've listened to.

I hope to have my Purp-Amp back up and running here soonish…
And since it has a set of 32Ω output taps, which is a perfect match for the HE500's, they should work well together.

JJ


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## gefski

Well, I’ve been in the “quiet room” since sometime in June (not living in there, just listening several hours a week ***). 

We’re already in a quiet neighborhood. With the house quiet, a/c not running, windows closed, no TV, talking, etc. it’s good for music listening. Then go in the quiet room and shut the door and it’s weirdly dead, still, silent. Clearly there is in our homes, even when quiet, air movement that we hear. Startling when we don’t hear it. Now I haven’t got an anechoic chamber here; if someone talks in normal speech right outside the door, I hear talking but can’t make it out. But it’s significant, I can “feel” the difference in here.

So how is it for listening to open back headphones? In a word, wonderful. Everything I already enjoy in hi-fi, true timbre, touch, texture, is vital, alive. Differences between recordings and between gear are greater. I’ve still got a bunch to do with furnishings, treatments. I set up table-top, like we do at our meets. Not photogenic, but form follows function, everything backed in with short cables, easy gear swaps. 

A couple things came up right away. The two Acopian power supplies against the wall (12v 6a for Mac Mini, 24v 1a for uDO Dante interface), reflected a hum that I never noticed before. A segmented office type absorber took care of that. And, you think open back cans don’t reflect off walls and change things sonically? Well, when I leaned back to the wall in my chair, it did for sure. Thus, the furniture store-ish burlap/woven wall hangings is a quick n’ dirty solution.

So, worth it, worth the $? Well, I can only describe the magnitude, the value of the upgrade as equal to any of my best component upgrades ever. And, unlike gear changes, no part of it is a down or side grade or trade-off, it’s all good. All listening, all the time, to all music, is better. Of course, we were having a bathroom and this room done in the basement anyway, so the materials & labor cost for insulation, pipe wraps, putty pads, 5/8 sheetrock, Kilmat, insulated exterior door, dedicated outlets, maybe $2k max over what we were already spending for the room anyway.

So, for me, a staggering value with no downside. And for anybody that looks into this stuff, it’s not all or nothing. For example, just replacing a standard door (hollow core, gaps all around) with an exterior door fixes one of the worst sources of adjacent noise. There’s lots that can be done to improve our rooms for open back headphone listening!


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## gefski (Nov 14, 2022)

As suggested by @johnjen I’ll be at 88.2 SR for everything for a while. Sounds great now, I won’t compare til I have full “listener burn-in”.

There is a TINY glitch on several Tidal/Audirvana streamed cuts, the shortest possible dropout, maybe one in a long song, WAY less than 1 sec. Not a trace of anything on ripped files. Not worth chasing, music listening is more important, my Audirvana is an old version, but still sounds great.


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## johnjen

I will respond in more detail to your 'sound proof room mods'…  hahahahahahahahahaha

Since this is a very interesting subject that has multiple facets all of which help in our enjoyment of our audio pursuits.

It will be interesting to hear your observations on the 88.2 vs 44.1SR shift…

JJ


----------

