# copper vs silver digital interconnect



## glitch39

quick comparison of both materials - had to set some base factors constant to make it apples for apples:

 same length - half meter

 same impedance - 75 ohms end to end (not just cable, but RCA connectors as well)

 same equipment - zero HDAM -> *digital S/PDIF* -> woo 3+ -> HD650

 same tracks played


 when I put the pure solid core silver interconnect (Homegrown Veritas) and played "Spanish Harlem", I was taken aback by the additional clarity and layering. Then played BB King's "You don't know me" and confirmed the same. However, I felt something was missing and could not quite pinpoint it.

 So I went back to put my copper interconnect (Canare LV-77S). I played BB King again and immediately found what was missing - the BASS!

 So here is question to all you UBER ODIOFILES:

 it's been said that silver makes things brighter - is it because there is less lower octave harmonics feeding the tube amp resulting in less bass?

 I want to know if the gain in clarity and layering is a result of this.

 At this point, I kept the Canare because of its *fuller *sound

 Please advise


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 it's been said that silver makes things brighter - is it because there is less lower octave harmonics feeding the tube amp resulting in less bass? 
 

Maybe it is because silver is more shiny and more expensive than copper. It has never been proven that silver sounds brighter. Silver is ~7% more conductive than copper. That is all.

 The rest of the signal path still has all kinds of materials in it (lead, steel, copper, etc..). So 1 meter of silver makes everything sound better, even if there is still 5+ meters of copper?

 No one really knows why people prefer silver to copper. I don't think there is a scientific explanation, but people do prefer it and that is fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## th0m

It shouldn't make any difference at all in a digital cable. It's just ones and zeros. If it's the same ones and zeros in both ends of the cable, then it's as good as it gets, and this can be accomplished with pretty much any wire.


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


 It shouldn't make any difference at all in a digital cable. It's just ones and zeros. If it's the same ones and zeros in both ends of the cable, then it's as good as it gets, and this can be accomplished with pretty much any wire. 
 

Exactly what I thought as well. Being an engineer, I know what's fluff and what's not. But my ears can tell the difference, hence my inquiry to the board experts


----------



## DARKHAVEN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *th0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It shouldn't make any difference at all in a digital cable. It's just ones and zeros. If it's the same ones and zeros in both ends of the cable, then it's as good as it gets, and this can be accomplished with pretty much any wire._

 

This is key. Maybe its psychosomatic, because a digital signal will not produce ANY difference in sound from material to material, as long as the digital signal can actually reach the source undegraded. For analog equipment, I could see the argument being made, maybe...


----------



## th0m

I use a $150 coax cable myself (mostly for looks and less risk of breakage), so I'm not bashing anyone for buying expensive cables. It's just that purely scientifically speaking, it really shouldn't make any difference. I've never done any blind testing when it comes to digital cables though.


----------



## dura

I once read digital ic's can sound different because the bits are pulses; it is interpreted as 'on' above a certain voltage, and 'off' below a certain voltage.
 Now if the shape of the pulse alters, f.i. the ideal blockform gets more smoothed and trianglelike it goes 'on' later because the voltage needed is reached later.
 All this should be irrelevant if reclocking is done after receiving, but if not, I can imagine digital cables having an influence in the timedomain. If and how this is audible I've no idea.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I once read digital ic's can sound different because the bits are pulses; it is interpreted as 'on' above a certain voltage, and 'off' below a certain voltage._

 

If a cable can't conduct well enough to prevent errors, it's defective. I doubt that you would be able to find a cable so poorly designed and manufactured that it does what you describe.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Golden Monkey

A-ha!!! NOW I know your user ID, Robert!


----------



## glitch39

*



*


----------



## Golden Monkey

Do you want me to bring my Silver Res interconnects for you tomorrow?


----------



## glitch39

I have found my optimum setup.

 Solid core coax is what I have now - CANARE L-5CFB for the digital and audio interconnects

 stiff in setting up but if you plan the bends well, it's not an issue. I thought cables should not matter esp with the short runs, but it does!

 I think it's because cables are now the weak link in my audio chain

 So I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm settled for now.


----------



## cLy_eVo

Try copying a file with lan cable/ usb cable of wutever material it is, if it doesnt result in error on copying, the file is essentially identical to the previous copy. Same thing applies to digital IC imo. My experience with cheap lan cable... no loss packet ever except when using wireless bluetooth or wifi. In conclusion, digital data is less susceptible to corruption than analog.


----------



## endless402

I thought it was all 0 and 1 too until I heard it myself. 
 Used a top end denon transport outputting to my dacmagic and then to a levinson system therefore making my dac the weakest link. I could easily spot the differences between digital cables in the music. Granted I was listening to high quality recordings too.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cLy_eVo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try copying a file with lan cable/ usb cable of wutever material it is, if it doesnt result in error on copying, the file is essentially identical to the previous copy. Same thing applies to digital IC imo._

 

The difference between copying data files vs. digital audio transmission is that the latter has the clock component to complicate matters. There's a pretty good explanation here:
 (quote)
 The Clock is Analog

 While the clock may look like a digital signal (it comes, after all, from digital circuitry and has only two levels), it is in fact an analog signal.

 A digital signal is defined as a signal whose meaning comes from its state (0 or 1) at a particular time (say, when it is latched in a circuit). Digital signals are very noise-proof because it takes a lot of noise to fake a digital level (change a 1 into a 0 for instance).

 An analog signal is defined as a signal whose meaning comes from its amplitude and/or the variation of such amplitude over time. Depending on how the valuable information they carry is encoded, analog signals can be anything from relatively imune to noise (think about an FM radio signal) to extremely sensitive (think about an analog audio signal).

 The clock signal carries its information not in the logic levels but in the precise timing of their transitions (aka. "significant instants"). In this sense, it is an analog signal, as the timing information is defined by comparing the analog value of the clock signal with a fixed threshold and marking a clock tick every time the value crosses the threshold. Hence, it is very sensitive to noise and other alterations :

 * Noise added to the clock will shift the transitions.
 * Low-pass action by cables and other circuitry will soften the edges and render them more vulnerable to noise.
 * Low-pass filtering will allow other signals (like data) to contaminate the clock. 

 Thus, if it is to respect the extremely strict requirements we must put on it regarding Jitter, the clock becomes a very fragile signal indeed. It must be handled with a lot of care.

 Enter SPDIF. (unquote)


----------



## cLy_eVo

Very good explanation there. I understand what u meant. But as far as i know, the clock you meant are probably the bandwidth over the transfer protocol. More bandwidth mean more data can be transfered per given time. Low quality cable may result in loss packet (never happen to me), the data are resent and this repeat over and over again and the only downside is loss of transfer speed. If the client require transfer of data in realtime, there may be loss of data. This make sense in realtime digital audio (the data lost maybe some high note or some low note).


----------



## Skorpitarius

Silver is absolutely better for audio signals and sounds clearer, more open, better low end and much more 3D positioning .
 I have done many A/B comparisons over the years and am completely convinced of this.
 The people that say otherwise are either deaf or too broke to get silver cabling .


----------



## sanderx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The difference between copying data files vs. digital audio transmission is that the latter has the clock component to complicate matters. There's a pretty good explanation here:
 (quote)
 The Clock is Analog

 [snip]

 Enter SPDIF. (unquote)_

 

You know, one could say the same about, let us say, ethernet. Or adsl. Or Sata. Or ... well, any digital transport that sends clock and data over the same wire (or optical transport). There is no essential difference there between those and SPDIF. You either get the correct bits or you don't. If you get the correct bits, its all the same to the DAC / LAN / HDD controller. Its still just bits. 

 Bits which need clock to be recovered. Ever tried to hear the difference of silver sata cables transporting the bits from the hard disk to the audio player?


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Silver is absolutely better for audio signals and sounds clearer, more open, better low end and much more 3D positioning .
 I have done many A/B comparisons over the years and am completely convinced of this.
 The people that say otherwise are either deaf or too broke to get silver cabling ._

 

James Randi has $1,000,000.00 just waiting for you. Think of the upgrades!

 Occam's razor says that the differences the OP are hearing exist only in his (or her) head.


----------



## endless402

i should try a silver digital interconnect

 who makes one or are ppl just using a normal silver interconnect


----------



## Lazarus Short

For all the useless gear-praising and gushing over the years in the pages of _Stereophile,_ I do remember this tidbit: they mentioned a test in which steel coat-hanger wire did a credible job as digital cable. Currently, I use solid-core Tara COPPER interconnect between transport and DAC.


----------



## nick_charles

never mind...


----------



## mellows

Hehe he he. If someone had told me this discussion was taking place I would never have believed him. This is a hundred times more ridiculous than the fuse guys. Are you writing your messages from a computer with gold ethernet cables? Just to make sure they don't get corrupted in the one metre to the router, never mind the thousands of kilometres the signal will still travel on regular copper. Yet your messages appear legible to me... That is strange. I would have thought all sorts of crazy mumbo jumbo would have taken place over such a huge distance...


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mellows* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hehe he he. If someone had told me this discussion was taking place I would never have believed him. This is a hundred times more ridiculous than the fuse guys._

 

Wait till you read some of the burn-in threads or power cable threads, that will really blow your mind


----------



## jbarbier

fwiw, i think that data (digital or not) is much more concrete than sound. sound can be interpreted, and perceived, an infinite number of ways -- albeit all very similar. but those very small differences could be the difference in silver or copper or gold or a steel coat-hanger, no?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *endless402* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i should try a silver digital interconnect

 who makes one or are ppl just using a normal silver interconnect_

 

Oyaide makes them OYAIDE ELEC,co,.ltd. I have bought one and one of my buddies took it. And another buddy bought one. They sparkle in sound, prefer it to a Cardas.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jbarbier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fwiw, i think that data (digital or not) is much more concrete than sound. sound can be interpreted, and perceived, an infinite number of ways -- albeit all very similar. but those very small differences could be the difference in silver or copper or gold or a steel coat-hanger, no?_

 

That works if we have confidence that something is really different in a way and of sufficient magnitude that it would alter our perception of sound. The empirical evidence we have is that cables are so similar in terms of actually transmitting a signal (frequency, amplitide, group delay/phase shift, noise, distortion) (leaving out RLC, just looking at signals) that there is little rational reason to suppose that these tiny differences could be perceived. Group delay much touted by manufacturers is a real red herring for cables since it becomes audible (just) at 3.2ms (3 x 10 ^ -3) but no cable of less than 50ft will ever be worse than 900ns (900 x 10 ^ -9) .

 Are there any other electrical properties of interest, well basically no, RLC will directly affect the parameters I mentioned anyway and the limitations of the end transducers are orders of magnitude worse than any limitations of cables.


----------



## mellows

I'm actually interested as to why this magical cable market has only surfaced in audio. Why don't we see silver SATA cables for lightning quick transfer and improved soundstaging of hard drives? But seriously, however much you spend on fuses and other rubbish could be better spent on... music! Lots of it actually! Or is that not what speakers are for anymore?


----------



## majkel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Silver is absolutely better for audio signals and sounds clearer, more open, better low end and much more 3D positioning .
 I have done many A/B comparisons over the years and am completely convinced of this.
 The people that say otherwise are either deaf or too broke to get silver cabling ._

 

Have you replaced the coils in your headphones and speakers for those made of silver? If not, you lose so much... My experience says that a good (not the cheapest) copper studio cable terminated with professional plugs (say Neutrik Profi) is a more transparent and better solution than any audiphile brand cable. 

 Re: the topic. The coaxial cables matter more for inferior transports due to ground loop involved with the coaxial connection, low signal level being more immune to EMI noise and finally higher data jitter. If you have a decent digital transport, you can use a digital TV cable with full success. The Fadel Art Reference was no better than a Prolink digital TV cable from the Accuphase DP800 transport while plain CD players differentiate this Prolink from the audiophile cables pretty easily showing it as OK but not the "best". All is a matter of balancing near the digital readout correctness and the ground loop influence. Good transports have transformer-coupled digital outputs so the ground is no issue, the jitter is low and the signal amplitude is high. Then the cable hardly matters. It has to be electrically correct with the right wave impedance, and that's it.


----------



## realkandar

how about sata cable which is modified become analog interconnect?


----------



## shaolin95

terriblepaulz said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 So true...its amazing how EASILY people can hear all sorts of differences between cables, etc...like day and night UNTIL they get tested and then suddenly is like their ears stop working. Such hyper active imaginations....


----------



## Lenni

what's amazing how easily people believe anything they read or hear on anything they know very little to nothing about, and make up their mind to be true.
  
 sad really.


----------

