# MAKING A DECENT HI-FI POWER SUPPLY FOR XONAR ESSENCE



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hi all interested!
 I am very fascinated about the sound card but I think the power supply in the computer can be a major factor for making the card even better.

 So I plead to all of you that have knowledge and interest to make together a power supply that will improve the sound of the card.

 Thanks.

 Marko


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## ROBSCIX

I posted the power requirements in the STX main thread awhile back. Acouple other guys were interested in the same thing. I looked over the pics of one design. 
 The builder stated it improved things noticably.


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## ROBSCIX

Here is the info I received from the STX designers.

 I am looking through older emails and all so if I find more specs, I will post it.
 I will also look for the contact info for the others who built the PSU.
 Unless they chime in first.

Xonar Essence STX
 Max power draw is 20 Watts usually less.

 Current requirments with or without amp
 +5V 620mA
 +12V 250mA


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes. I noticed that. But please post some good ideas here!!! I think the main thread is getting to large!!! All about this card is becoming so big that should be more special threads about it! If you know this guy, please let him share his ideas!!!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

ups! you where faster!


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, many people are running opamps tests and filling up that main thread.. 
 I will look through my PM's and email and see if I can find the contact info for you.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Thanks. Really!


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## ROBSCIX

Here is the Contact info for the guy that built the PSU for the STX: Fzman

 No problem, glad I could help. Post some pics when you get it done.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

What do you think about audio-gd s power supply concepts(kit).
 Here a picture of a Modification Parallel Stabilized Voltage Supply Board!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is the info I received from the STX designers.

 I am looking through older emails and all so if I find more specs, I will post it.
 I will also look for the contact info for the others who built the PSU.
 Unless they chime in first.

Xonar Essence STX
 Max power draw is 20 Watts usually less.

 Current requirments with or without amp
 +5V 620mA
 +12V 250mA_

 

Yes. But what would happen whit current requirements if you have three discrete op-amps whit 50 mA current draw???


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## Bojamijams

well then you would add the difference between the regular DIP8 op-amps and the new ones.. or just add +150ma on the 12V line to be safe (assuming the HDAM's use the 12v)


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Ok. thanks!


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## ROBSCIX

Going to use some discrete opamps are you?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes! I have three burson opamps installed!


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## ROBSCIX

I know, I was J/K. I looked over your pictures awhile back. The guys I spoke with who built the external PSU said there were noticable improvments in the signature of the STX.

 Discrete opamps and now a external PSU...pulling out all the stops huh?
 Atleast you have a high quaility platform to work with though great DAC,ADC, filters
 and high quality PCB.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Why not! As you sad, its a good platform to build on it! Once I wanted to sell my essence and buy a compass (audio-gd) but I think essence is better DAC so its worth to try some issues!


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## ROBSCIX

Post your results and some design shots when you start the building.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I will. I just ordered some parts from audio GD! 

 But this thread isnt just about me! I am welcome all friends of great ideas how to make a PSU!!!! Please post any ideas !!! We all can make something of it and learn from uss!!!!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

This week I will get on work whit my new PSU!!! The parts will arrive tomorrow! So hope I will do some improvements there!!!!


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## Bojamijams

I can't wait to see your results


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Nice! ))


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## audionewbieyao

yes yes, keep it coming...
 looking forward for you new PSU d (^_^) b <-- thumbs up


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Now I am double motivated to work faster!!)


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## ROBSCIX

Very interested in what you come up with.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey guys!

 I have made the PSU, but have real problem whit the 5V+ line! Every time I conect 
 the PSU true molex to soundcard. The 12V+ line is stable but on 5V I get voltage drop. Its not the currant becouse when I add more currant the voltage drops. So its really confusing. Do you really know how much is the currant consumption? When the currant is 680-780mA the voltage is 0,8V!!! Here I am adding the link of the shema of the PSU!
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys!

 I have made the PSU, but have real problem whit the 5V+ line! Every time I conect 
 the PSU true molex to soundcard. The 12V+ line is stable but on 5V I get voltage drop. Its not the currant becouse when I add more currant the voltage drops. So its really confusing. Do you really know how much is the currant consumption? When the currant is 680-780mA the voltage is 0,8V!!! Here I am adding the link of the shema of the PSU!
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1_

 

Did I give you the link the other guy that built the PSU? Perhaps he can help. Are you considering just using the Audio-GD supply?


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## 1UP

You should post this in the DIY forum or even on diyhifi.org


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did I give you the link the other guy that built the PSU? Perhaps he can help. Are you considering just using the Audio-GD supply?_

 

Yes you did, but I didnt found enything on diyforum so this was
 the easiest way. I mailed them a private message. Maybe he can help.
 On this project should work more people together. I am not really a electronics guy so I just have some basics!!! 

 I set up this threat for people to build together!!!


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## taso89

From the same page: 

 "If have any problems ,welcome send E-mail to audio-gd@126.com , we will reply you soon and professional."

 Why not just ask the maker?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I contacted him, after all he said this:
 "I think you want to let it work then change the LED of transistors."
 What does this mean I dont know!


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## silverskull

i own an X-fi,any1 could give me heads up if upgrading the power supply would improve its performance?i think im on a 450W PSU from LianLi.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *silverskull* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i own an X-fi,any1 could give me heads up if upgrading the power supply would improve its performance?i think im on a 450W PSU from LianLi._

 

This project is not really applicable to your X-fi, well not without extensive soldering and modification. 
 The Xonar STX has a molex conenctor so the card takes it's power right from teh PSU of the PC and not through the PCI/PCI-E bus.
 What some of the STX owners have been doing is building high quality power supplies to connect to this molex conencotr on their card.


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## silverskull

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This project is not really applicable to your X-fi, well not without extensive soldering and modification. 
 The Xonar STX has a molex conenctor so the card takes it's power right from teh PSU of the PC and not through the PCI/PCI-E bus.
 What some of the STX owners have been doing is building high quality power supplies to connect to this molex conencotr on their card._

 

oh darn,knew i should have waited for the STX,but it wasn't released here in aussie during the starting of the year.but i don't have the skills to do so anyways,probably need some help.


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## twhtpclover

So what's the status now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Is it done and being tested now?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

The STATUS is:
 The 5V doesnt work!!!
 But then I connected the 12V from the new PSU and 5V from computer and I must
 say it was a illuminaton of sound. Everything opened up so clear, there is air and such dynamics for dream. The colouration is gone, so everything is clear in whole freq. spectrum. As owner of essence I never thought it would be such huge difference. The PSU really is the major factor of good sounding DAC!!! The PSU from Kingwa is on 12V really really good, so clear and open. 
 The 12V on the sound card are for analog section not? So and the 5V are ??? 
 As essence owner I will never ever if I get the PSU comp. to work connect to computer PSU!!!!!


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## ROBSCIX

I am unsure what you mean by the 5V does not work.
 However, the board logic (5V) is taken from the PCI-E slot. The power for the amplifier seciton is taken from teh molex to keep it as clean as possible.

 I am glad it worked out so good for you. Are you still using the stock opamps?

 Your cards PSU is made by you or did you end up ordering one from Kingwa?
 If you ended up building it, what did you end up paying for it?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

I am saying that 5V+ from molex does not work from kingwa PSU!!! But I did connect the 12V from kingwa and 5V from computer PSU! 
 No I use all the time burson opamps, they have more than 300h of operation and are
 just wonderful.
 No I just ordered the finished board from kingwa! The prices are on their page!
 I really want to make it work both but will see!


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## ROBSCIX

I see.

 Does the card draw 5 volts from the molex? 
 The way I understand it 5V is taken from the slot itslef.

 As for the Discretes, Yeah they are pretty good. The discrete opamps and a high quality dedicated PSU..wow you must have some kicing soudn quality


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes it does but from computer PSU!!
 Something on the sound card is blocking the 5V power supply from kingwa PSU!


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## ROBSCIX

I see so the card draws 5 V from both the Molex and the board. If your still having difficulties verify your info and issue with the other PSU builder.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

I am waiting to get a message from him!!! Will see?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

*This is a appeal to all out their whit essences, try a external PSU because it makes real the major difference!!!! *


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## audionewbieyao

wow...
 guess maybe the key is not to mess with the 1000 OPAMPs out there, but simply change to a better external PSU...


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## ROBSCIX

There are many points for upgrade on any audio device. Power is always one of them.


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audionewbieyao* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow...
 guess maybe the key is not to mess with the 1000 OPAMPs out there, but simply change to a better external PSU... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He's also using the discrete audio-gd opamps.. so we have no idea if there is any improvement with stock op-amps.. though I imagine there is.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes, the whole package is good! If you have a clean and qualitative source then you
 can see how good the essence really is!!! Its night and day!!!
 I just figured out what was wrong whit the 5V supply, the essence needs 1,5A of
 currant and not 680mA!!!! Kingwa said my PSU cant supply 2A of currant so I must replace some componets!! But he will offer a new PSU09 and this one will be able to supply 2-5A!!! The bottom line is I will work on my PSU to achieve the 2A mark and will cut the dirty PC supply!!!


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## leeperry

adding exclamation marks everywhere won't change a damn thing!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 how about some RMAA results w/ your stock ATX PSU(model please?), and w/ the new external PSU please? "better" and "good" are quite subjective...as you will agree, nothing can be more easily fooled than the human brain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got a high grade ATX PSU(voltages couldn't get any less ripple), I've kept the STX on its own rail...and I can't hear the "dirty" noise you're mentioning


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Do not be offensive, you all are intelligent people and know that everything is subjective.
 The RMAA test yes maybe will be a good benchmark! 
 For my taste its better what i have experiencing true the PSU of kingwa!!! But this is not a complete review because I can run it on 5V too. So I have to wait until I have the complete package running!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

(I cant run it on 5V too)


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_adding exclamation marks everywhere won't change a damn thing!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 how about some RMAA results w/ your stock ATX PSU(model please?), and w/ the new external PSU please? "better" and "good" are quite subjective...as you will agree, nothing can be more easily fooled than the human brain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got a high grade ATX PSU(voltages couldn't get any less ripple), I've kept the STX on its own rail...and I can't hear the "dirty" noise you're mentioning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have not mentioned any dirty noise but the colouration of the power supply from ATX PSU!!! I think there are many factors not only the ripple!


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## leeperry

"colouration of the power supply"? I hope for you that Gregorio won't see this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I talked about that w/ a friend of mine who's an EE, he told me that most "serious" audio equipment will have caps and stuff to stabilize the electric input...I believe the STX has a bunch of SANYO caps.

 anyway, I guess you can't quite measure "the colouration of the power supply!!!!", so what matters in the end is that you like it better like this


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Of course the essence has filtering stuff! 
 leeperry yes in the end its your subjective feeling that matters!!! I see where all this is going! I will just say buy or make a PSU and then you will hear the difference for better or not!!! 
 I like dynamics and clarity of music and when I connected the half of kingwa PSU to the card it really was an improvement. The instruments played whit ATX PSU are more would say feeling flat. Whit kingwa PSU everything expended in freq. or they are more details in the music! (THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION)


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## leeperry

but did you change the op-amps too? coz the 2114D are really lousy..


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes. I have 3x burson dual opamps!


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## leeperry

haha cool! can the card output enough power for these monsters?

 and how is the soundstage/distortion compared to the 49720?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes it does! Instead of 150mA on 12V+ are the supply now 400-500mA. The opamps are working perfect! I also have tried 49720s. They are not bad!


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## leeperry

2114D>49720HA is night and day....distortion becomes inaudible and the SS becomes huge! how are these on the burson? I understand they'd be more distorted but give more details? and how is the SS then?


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Please this I a thread for PSU! We can talk about it on sneak prev thread if you want!
 Their are more details and you hear a bigger sound stage. Every instrument has more substance. The sound is more dynamic and natural sounding. What do you mean SS?


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## eugenius

How much would you want to get such a thing:





















 And mod it to an uber-essence stx with external PSU, rfi shielding, USB hub, USB to Lan, optical already included in the box?


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the whole package is good! If you have a clean and qualitative source then you
 can see how good the essence really is!!! Its night and day!!!
 I just figured out what was wrong whit the 5V supply, the essence needs 1,5A of
 currant and not 680mA!!!! Kingwa said my PSU cant supply 2A of currant so I must replace some componets!! But he will offer a new PSU09 and this one will be able to supply 2-5A!!! The bottom line is I will work on my PSU to achieve the 2A mark and will cut the dirty PC supply!!!_

 

hey, yo, what's your computer PSU (brand and model)? Saying that the audio-gd is night and day compared to your PSU means not too much for us if you don't tell us what's your computer PSU.

 What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP? Wouldn't it exist a computer PSU which is as good as the audio-gd PSU? As far as I know, the good computer PSUs output one of the cleanest and stable DC signal for electronics. (e.g., http://www.corsair.com/products/hx/default.aspx)

 lao


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2114D>49720HA is night and day...._

 

just a little parenthesis: leeperry are you saying that the stock 2114D is better than the LME49720HA or you just made a little unintentional mistake by typing '>' instead of '<' ? You're driving me to a little confusion here.

 lao


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## ROBSCIX

LME49720's are superior opamps to the 2114's. The stock 2114 are generic audio opamps and they are really meant to be changed out.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are you saying that the stock 2114D is better than the LME49720HA or you just made a little unintentional mistake by typing '>' instead of '<' ?_

 

by ">" I meant "upgrade to"

 the 2214 are slightly improved 5532, which are more or less the industry standard...they still suck, like most of the op-amps used on Echo Digital/RME soundcards that are NJM2068...very bad specs compared to the holy 49720 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 it's been proven on diyaudio.com that the difference between DAC's is far smaller than between op-amps...apparently the THS4032 is also a winner, but the 49720HA fullfills all my needs tbh....I don't plan on spending any more cash/time on op-amps


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## laobrasuca

sry, ok


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## laobrasuca

@ GWorlDofSPACE: 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what's your computer PSU (brand and model)? Saying that the audio-gd is night and day compared to your PSU means not too much for us if you don't tell us what's your computer PSU.

 What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP? Wouldn't it exist a computer PSU which is as good as the audio-gd PSU? As far as I know, the good computer PSUs output one of the cleanest and stable DC signal for electronics. (e.g., Welcome to Corsair :: HX Power Supply Product Information)

 lao_


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## taso89

I also don't understand the need for a dedicated PSU for the sound card; my friend, a live sound engineer and electrical enthusiast, says a computer PSU provides some of the cleanest DC power after batteries.


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## Bojamijams

Speaking of which... cheaper then building a dedicated PSU for the STX, how about building a battery adapter that takes 2 9v batteries and split it off into a 12v and a 5v line? 

 Then we can use that for when we want the really really good sound. 

 I'm just scheming out my ass here. This is some good weed.


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## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taso89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also don't understand the need for a dedicated PSU for the sound card; my friend, a live sound engineer and electrical enthusiast, says a computer PSU provides some of the cleanest DC power after batteries._

 

Whatever your friend does, there's quite clearly a gaping void in his knowledge.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whatever your friend does, there's quite clearly a gaping void in his knowledge._

 

Feel free to fill in the gaps and enlighten the thread...


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## Duggeh

PC switching PSUs are loaded up the gills with noise. A comparison with battery power or a proper (non-switching) psu of that kind does not stand.


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## laobrasuca

in spite of all of it, I really would like to know to which PSU the OP is comparing his audio-gd solution to. I wonder if the gap in performorce would be so remarkable if compared to a really decent computer PSU (switching or not). Anyway, it's really an odd idea to put another PSU in your computer case only to power the soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 About the car baterry, it would be funny xD Anyone sick enough here to try it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in spite of all of it, I really would like to know to which PSU the OP is comparing his audio-gd solution to. I wonder if the gap in performorce would be so remarkable if compared to a really decent computer PSU (switching or not)._

 

All PC PSU's are switching


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## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PC switching PSUs are loaded up the gills with noise. A comparison with battery power or a proper (non-switching) psu of that kind does not stand._

 

Seconded. Further, switching supplies throw off massive amounts of RFI. There's a solid engineering reason you don't find them in audio equipment.

 Has anyone else noticed that the total cost of the card plus a new power supply and various mods puts it at the same price as a decent desktop amp? And if you're bent on modding, then why not build an amp from scratch?


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## taso89

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PC switching PSUs are loaded up the gills with noise. A comparison with battery power or a proper (non-switching) psu of that kind does not stand._

 

So? Tube amps are practically antennas and they still sound awesome. 

 I thought the whole point of building a PSU for the Essence was to give it more juice, not give it cleaner power.. Either way you will be susceptible to a ton of noise.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey, yo, what's your computer PSU (brand and model)? Saying that the audio-gd is night and day compared to your PSU means not too much for us if you don't tell us what's your computer PSU.

 What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP? Wouldn't it exist a computer PSU which is as good as the audio-gd PSU? As far as I know, the good computer PSUs output one of the cleanest and stable DC signal for electronics. (e.g., Welcome to Corsair :: HX Power Supply Product Information)

 lao_

 

Hi!
 I have a corsair tx-650 PSU in the computer! 
 I did not finish the PSU yet. But almost there! 
 I was forced to wait for some components to arrive from china.

 I just connected the 12V+ of kingwa PSU and 5V+ of computer PSU to the 
 soundcard and I noticed more details and more dynamics in the music, a little bit more colder signature. It was a real difference you could hear. I did not expect this could happen. BUT THIS IS ALL SUBJECTIVE!!!

 So I will post some pictures and a more detailed review when I am done!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in spite of all of it, I really would like to know to which PSU the OP is comparing his audio-gd solution to. I wonder if the gap in performorce would be so remarkable if compared to a really decent computer PSU (switching or not). Anyway, it's really an odd idea to put another PSU in your computer case only to power the soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 About the car baterry, it would be funny xD Anyone sick enough here to try it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao_

 

ODD IDEA????
 Lets say it is just an experiment!!! There are no odd ideas just stupid comments!


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ODD IDEA????
 Lets say it is just an experiment!!! There are no odd ideas just stupid comments!_

 

there you go! But don't worry, for respect of the other members here I won't give you an response. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways, I still have this question: "What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP?" It would be just the switching? Hope not.

 By the way, the improvement in sound quality is noticeable when using both DAC and AMP sections? I mean, if you use your RCA out and an external AMP, the extra PSU still make a difference? In this case, it would better to save the money and buy an external AMP.

 @Uncle Erik: just don't forget that you not only have an AMP out of the STX but also a very, very good DAC. I'm not sure that there exists another DAC only in the market that can came close to the DAC of the STX at the same price! In case you know one, please point it out because it interests me for future upgrade. And, for the moddings, the OP-AMP changes are pretty much the only or almost only one that most of users would make.

 lao


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seconded. Further, switching supplies throw off massive amounts of RFI. There's a solid engineering reason you don't find them in audio equipment.

 Has anyone else noticed that the total cost of the card plus a new power supply and various mods puts it at the same price as a decent desktop amp? And if you're bent on modding, then why not build an amp from scratch?_

 

The essence is a DAC+AMP.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there you go! But don't worry, for respect of the other members here I won't give you an response. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways, I still have this question: "What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP?" It would be just the switching? Hope not.

 By the way, the improvement in sound quality is noticeable when using both DAC and AMP sections? I mean, if you use your RCA out and an external AMP, the extra PSU still make a difference? In this case, it would better to save the money and buy an external AMP.

 @Uncle Erik: just don't forget that you not only have an AMP out of the STX but also a very, very good DAC. I'm not sure that there exists another DAC only in the market that can came close to the DAC of the STX at the same price! In case you know one, please point it out because it interests me for future upgrade. And, for the moddings, the OP-AMP changes are pretty much the only or almost only one that most of users would make.

 lao_

 

I have a tube amp DARKVOICE 3322 connected to the xonar, also
 my essence has three burson discrete op amps whit m-caps. When I was experimenting whit kingwa PSU I used the RCA output whit my AKG K701s.
 I really dont know how will sound when the tube amp is connected to essence and I use the kingwa PSU. Will see! Must be tested. 

 "What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP?" 
 I am not a technician but why all audiophile equipment is using not switched PSUs. There must be some issue.


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## leeperry

well, it's notorious that the "Sonic Impact T-Amp" benefits greatly from a regulated PSU...but these are DC, I wasn't able to find an AC regulated PSU 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




T-amp stabilized PSU - Google Search

 I went w/ the flow and bought one, I didn't bother w/ a simple adapter, and it works really well on my KRK Rokit(I lowered its output to 12V) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 you could also use a Water-Cooling relay to synchronize it w/ the PC PSU I guess.

 but when I asked a friend, he told me that my previous USB soundcard had caps and stuff to stabilize the incoming current, so a regulated PSU wouldn't really help...it's prolly the same on the STX 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus are not exactly retards when it comes to electric management...their top-end mobos w/ 12 phases are amongst the best overclockers.


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## leeperry

I should add that ppl seem to prefer regulated PSU's over off-the-wall adapters because they output a very stable voltage : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/t-a...supply-125333/

 but I've got one of the most stable PC PSU(there's hardly any ripple AT ALL, even under heavy load), so the SANYO OS-Con caps on the STX don't do a good enough job to "clean" the power?


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should add that ppl seem to prefer regulated PSU's over off-the-wall adapters because they output a very stable voltage : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/t-a...supply-125333/

 but I've got one of the most stable PC PSU(there's hardly any ripple AT ALL, even under heavy load), so the SANYO OS-Con caps on the STX don't do a good enough job to "clean" the power?_

 

that's why I ask "What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP?"

 @ GWorlDofSPACE: let us know about the use of the tube amp with the RCA out regarding the use of the different PSU.

 lao


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that's why I ask "What does make a PSU better than another in terms of final sound quality out of a DAC and AMP?"_

 

there's many comparisons between off-the-wall and regulated available through this link : T-amp regulated PSU - Google Search


----------



## fzman

with regard to the stx, the distinction is between switching power supplies of the quality and spec used for computers, vs linear psus built with audio in mind. the qualifications are important, as the comparison is not between switchers per-se, and linear supplies per-se.

 i built a 12v/5v supply for my essence, using a choke-filtered circuit, with lm1084 regulators.

 it sounded much better than being fed from the molex on my antec psu which came with my antec htpc -- i believe it is a slightly lower version of the earthwatts 430....

 coherence, articulation, clarity, and resolution were all improved, and the bass control and power were also better. this computer is dedicated to audio, and only has a ram stick, and the essence inside, beside the mobo and psu, of course....

 i use it for speaker listening, and it is hooked up to my main system. 

 spout theory, or a misunderstanding of it all you want-- the proof is in the listening, whether you chose to believe it or not. quoting ripple specs without knowing the details of the measuring technique is not the whole story. computer psus are built to run computers reliably, and conform to ftc/fcc rules regarding emi/rfi emissions. my linear supplies were designed to properly run analog circuitry, with sonic performance in mind (i did not design them, but an e.e. did!)

 i am not disconnecting them -- tried that, and ran over to reconnect them. my essence has 49720ha opamps, and very good interconnects from the rca outs to me sim audio preamp. it is on a very good isolation shelf/rack, and the computer and outboard psu use very good power cords, and are fed from an exceptional power conditioner -- 

 all in all, the result is an exceptional cd player.


----------



## leeperry

so it would appear that the onboard Sanyo OS caps are indeed filtering the noise from the incoming 12V : Decoupling capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 maybe not all, of course! still what matters is to have the lowest ripple I think...that's the primary reason why they recommend a stabilized PSU for the T-Amp.

 and, guys, the ST sounds seriously better than the STX....like Uncle Erik would say "making a custom PSU for the STX is like polishing a turd" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 some ppl on this forum have been knowing it for months, but they've apparently been asked to shut it to avoid killing the $TX sales


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_with regard to the stx, the distinction is between switching power supplies of the quality and spec used for computers, vs linear psus built with audio in mind. the qualifications are important, as the comparison is not between switchers per-se, and linear supplies per-se.
_

 

You were one of the first to build a PSU when the STX was first released.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey guys here. I just get an message from kingwa and he said I should leave my PSU and he will send me one new generation PSU who is capable 2-5A of currant. I decided to be so. I am looking forward to that. Sorry guys, will take some time...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Give us your impressions when you get it.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I will.


----------



## Ansh

Do you mind to share some pictures how you connect your power supply to the STX?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I was using common molex connector. Not a big deal! Just wait a couple of day when I get my new psu.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes drop me a line with some pics.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

ok.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys here. I just get an message from kingwa and he said I should leave my PSU and he will send me one new generation PSU who is capable 2-5A of currant. I decided to be so. I am looking forward to that. Sorry guys, will take some time..._

 

and the price?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Now Its available the PSU09 which costs 32$(maybe a little more because you need stranger output transistor) + shipping! You also need a transformer! Thats all!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

here is a picture!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Have you tested it yet?


----------



## leeperry

you'll put it in an external enclosure, and synchronize it w/ the ATX PSU through a relay?

 got any specs? it's regulated I guess?

 the length and the quality of the wires to the card will also matter, right?


----------



## moonboy403

I'm very impressed by Kingwa's productivity and build quality. Be sure to let us know how it sounds.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, Kingwa makes some great audio gear.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, Kingwa makes some great audio gear._

 

I think I read one of your post where you says you're thinking of getting the Compass. Did you get it?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I dont have it yet! Today was the first day available so I must wait... I will let you know how does it sound.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you'll put it in an external enclosure, and synchronize it w/ the ATX PSU through a relay?

*NO I WILL NOT SYNC. IT. I HAVE BUILD A EXTERNAL CASE WHIT COIL TRANSFORMER AND I WILL PUT IT IN. SO THE ESSENCE WILL BE POWERED ENTIRELY FROM THIS PSU.
*
 got any specs? it's regulated I guess?

*YES ITS REGULATED. I DO NOT HAVE ANY SPEC. *

 the length and the quality of the wires to the card will also matter, right?_

 

YES. BUT I WILL USE THE STANDARD MOLEX CABLE FROM PC CPU.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I read one of your post where you says you're thinking of getting the Compass. Did you get it?_

 

Not yet. I have heard his discretes though and they sound very good indeed. Not to mention it seems everybody that tries it loves Kingwas gear.


----------



## leeperry

ok, coz a friend of mine was smart enough to turn a regular ATX PSU into fanless, and he quickly realized that the power output was GREATLY dependent on the wires length...that's the reason why I was asking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so it's US $32 + shipping + an external enclosure...sounds like a winner if the SQ is improved even further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a "COIL TRANSFORMER"? so this PCB is not sufficient on its own?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes indeed!

 You need a transformer from 220V or 110V to 15V and 10V AC and the PCB then regulates and stabilizes I think its linear. Then you should get clean stabilized DC.


----------



## leeperry

oh, it's 110V only...

 so how will you work out the ideal wires length then? w/ a multimeter to reach perfect 12.00V/5.00V? I guess there'll be some knobs of some sort


----------



## ROBSCIX

Removing th cooling wouldn't be that difficult aslong as you weren't pushing a large amount of power and the regulators had good heatsinks.
 You asked if the PSU he has is regulated. Yes, you can see the large heatsinks (black Fins) these keep the regulators cool. When you start pushing a large amount of power though fans, are usually easier. Hope that helps.

 BTW, Wire lengths? -Almost any wire will have some resistance as they could throw off your actual values to some degree but it would be negligable amounts.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh, it's 110V only...

 so how will you work out the ideal wires length then? w/ a multimeter to reach perfect 12.00V/5.00V? I guess there'll be some knobs of some sort_

 

Is your PSU reaching 12.00V and 5.00V???


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is your PSU reaching 12.00V and 5.00V???_

 

the ATX specs allow ±5% tolerance, and the higher the voltage the better the op-amps will sound...right?

 so your best option is to output 12.6V or so?

 my PSU outputs 12.16V in that test, whatever idle or under load(it has the lowest ripple in their test) : Google Translate


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I think so. Yes whit 12,6 i dont know if this is good for the pcb board. hmmm
 here is a good question how much V you can add to analog section? As I know the analog section is separated not?


----------



## leeperry

well 12.6 will sure make your burson happy! and it's within the ATX specs. 

 round it to 12.5 and call it a day


----------



## ROBSCIX

You also have the power clean up and leveling circuits on the card also to try and keep the voltages within tolerance.
 The amplifiers section on the STX/ST swing +12/-12. Some may argue that opamps sound better with higher voltages if the circuit is designed to be used at higher voltages. The STX/ST circuit is designed for +12/-12. The closer to these values the better.

 The analog amplifications secitons are powered from the molex and logic is supplied from the motherboard.

 Try and get he voltage as close to 12V as you can.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Aha the op amps would be happier whit 25V! )


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I measured my PC PSU its providing 12.06V and 4,99V. 
 But whit kingwa I could make it 12,00V!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aha the op amps would be happier whit 25V! )_

 

Some argue that certain opamps sound better with higher voltages but the circuit needs to be designed to support these vaues.


----------



## leeperry

as a PCI card, it has to follow the ATX specs..some PSU's output 12.3V or slighty more


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I measured my PC PSU its providing 12.06V and 4,99V. 
 But whit kingwa I could make it 12,00V!_

 

Well those values are well within tolerance and your good to go.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_as a PCI card, it has to follow the ATX specs..some PSU's output 12.3V or slighty more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

PCI-E card. He is using a STX. There is always a bit of tolerance on the power as some chpeaer PSU will output hgiher values then that, but the idea is to get these values as close to perfect as possible.
 Tolerance is the margin for error, but ideally there should be no margin and precise values.

 The entire idea behind using a external PSU is to get higher quality power with proper values and as little varience as possible.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Oh LEEPERRY I have something in mind. Could you measure the currant on your ST for the 5V and 12V?


----------



## leeperry

lol, why would it be different from your STX?

 and I have a pretty lousy multimeter, it's not quite calibrated or anything like that...its measurements would be meaningless out of context.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I dont know but maybe there is something different. I would really appreciate, but if
 you dont want its ok.


----------



## leeperry

well, the card is installed in the lowest PCI slot, and it's an ATX case so it's backward...gonna be pretty hard to measure tbh.


----------



## leeperry

BTW, if you really have the cojones to swap your STX clock...this one might be a good candidate : eBay.ph: 24.576Mhz TCXO Low Jitter 1PPM Clock CD upgrade (item 220381337748 end time Jul 02, 2009 04:31:21 PHT)

 it runs at the same frequency, only more accurately...just need to check the dimensions and specs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I wish Asus would also make graphic cards w/ highly accurate 27MHz PLL's, that'd be really awesome for Reclock users...I'm gonna ask them right away


----------



## ROBSCIX

There are many places to buy these low Jitter clock modules. They are usually meant to upgrade existing CD players.

 Cojones? Why clocks are simple, a opamp has more connection then a XO.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


 Aging : +/- 2ppm/Yr 
 

haha, that's nasty! it means that every day jitter will increase 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll look up the CS2000 datasheet...but it's only used as a clock conditioner on the ST. it also means that the older your graphic card, the worst the refresh rate drifting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS: *an interesting link about clocks accuracy : http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-sw-clocks-quality.htm

 they heavily rely on voltage ripple and temperature...so a heatsink and a very stable PSU are your best allies.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont know but maybe there is something different. I would really appreciate, but if
 you dont want its ok._

 

Whe are you going to be connecting up this PSU?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whe are you going to be connecting up this PSU?_

 

What do you mind???


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

My PSU is not finished. I figured out the transformer must be replaced so will work on that. 
*Is somebody doing on a PSU project?????? *


----------



## twhtpclover

So it's been a while, any progress on the power side?
 Lots of my friends are asking about this recently.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I just arrived from vacation so I dont know yet.
 When I got the PSU from kingwa I got it to an electronics freak to check everything but
 I dont have any information from him yet. I will post the results as soon I get the information from it.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_here is always a bit of tolerance on the power as some chpeaer PSU will output hgiher values then that, but the idea is to get these values as close to perfect as possible.
 Tolerance is the margin for error, but ideally there should be no margin and precise values.

 The entire idea behind using a external PSU is to get higher quality power with proper values and as little varience as possible._

 

The card accepts 12vdc and 5vdc because that is what a computer's PSU outputs... not because the amplifier performs best at those voltages.

 The DAC uses a 5v analog and 3.3v digital supply, so there are most likely ~4.5v and ~3.3v LDO voltage regulators on the board. Whether you input 5v or 5.2v is of little significance.

 The tpa6120a2 runs on a 10-30v single supply or +/-5 to +/-15v dual supply. Your psu provides 12vdc which is on the low side of the operating specs. 
 The datasheet signifies that a higher operating voltage results in better specs all-around.. Lower thd, better supply ripple rejection(ratio), higher snr, higher slew rate, better dynamic range..
 The NJM2114 I'm guessing are used for the I/V and gain stage share similar benefits and are rated for even higher than that.

 The reason that you wouldn't want to use a much higher supply is for precautionary purposes. It's likely the 12v rail is shared by many different devices and components, some of which might not be rated for a higher voltage.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

JamesL!

 You right!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Guys!!

 I have to put my hands back and give up the kingwa PSU09! Its not working as it should!
 The 12+V line is working good. But the 5V+ line does not supply 1,5A only 800mA,
 so I will look for something else.

 Now I am using the 12V+ line from this PSU and 5V+ from computer and there is noticeable difference, the sound is more clean and sterile.

 So I am really open to a new solution for the PSU!

 Sorry guys I invested so much time in this kingwa PSU but dident work.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The card accepts 12vdc and 5vdc because that is what a computer's PSU outputs... not because the amplifier performs best at those voltages._

 

 Well yeah!! -where did I say the amplifier runs best at these voltages?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The DAC uses a 5v analog and 3.3v digital supply, so there are most likely ~4.5v and ~3.3v LDO voltage regulators on the board. Whether you input 5v or 5.2v is of little significance._

 

That is not what I meant at all. Of course a small value before a V-Reg won't make a big difference!! basic circuit design 101?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tpa6120a2 runs on a 10-30v single supply or +/-5 to +/-15v dual supply. Your psu provides 12vdc which is on the low side of the operating specs. 
 The datasheet signifies that a higher operating voltage results in better specs all-around.. Lower thd, better supply ripple rejection(ratio), higher snr, higher slew rate, better dynamic range..
 The NJM2114 I'm guessing are used for the I/V and gain stage share similar benefits and are rated for even higher than that.
 The reason that you wouldn't want to use a much higher supply is for precautionary purposes. It's likely the 12v rail is shared by many different devices and components, some of which might not be rated for a higher voltage._

 

Thought you just said the reason was because that is what the PSU puts out? To note the STX/ST amplifier section swings +/- 12 volts.... 
 Wow you read alot into a simple post and assumed a great deal.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well yeah!! -where did I say the amplifier runs best at these voltages?

 That is not what I meant at all. Of course a small value before a V-Reg won't make a big difference!! basic circuit design 101?_

 

you said the idea was to get it as close to perfect as possible and that ideally, there is no margin, and precise values. Sorry if I interpreted that wrong, but I don't know how else to interpret that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


 Thought you just said the reason was because that is what the PSU puts out? To note the STX/ST amplifier section swings +/- 12 volts.... 
 

Sorry, I didn't know that it swinged +/-12v. I don't exactly have a schematic of the card. 
 Perhaps it utilizes an inverting dc dc convertor in which case there will be still be some amount of switch noise in the power supply. 
  Quote:


 Wow you read alot into a simple post and assumed a great deal.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

What is that supposed to mean? I only read one thing from your post, and simply tried to explain it thoroughly.
 I only assumed the supply voltage because that was the most logical option in my head and again, because I had no schematic or spec sheet that revealed the information.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you said the idea was to get it as close to perfect as possible and that ideally, there is no margin, and precise values. Sorry if I interpreted that wrong, but I don't know how else to interpret that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Internally the closer the perfect the values are the better. The more experience you have with electnroics the more you know how far that is form the truth. Everything is about tolerances and best fit... power supply is not the same. Perhaps I worded it wrong.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I didn't know that it swinged +/-12v. I don't exactly have a schematic of the card. 
 Perhaps it utilizes an inverting dc dc convertor in which case there will be still be some amount of switch noise in the power supply. _

 

Yes, the amplifier section swing +/- 12 volts which is not to bad for a consumer based card. So the total voltage would be 24 volts.
 Yes, still using internal PSU and there is room for improvments never said their wasn't. 
 Within the circuit there are many ways to provide the negative supply. The actual V and I values to each opamps should be around also in case your interested.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is that supposed to mean? I only read one thing from your post, and simply tried to explain it thoroughly.
 I only assumed the supply voltage because that was the most logical option in my head and again, because I had no schematic or spec sheet that revealed the information._

 

Which is what I said, you read the post and assumed alot based on how I read your response.
 No big deal. Now you have the right info.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I posted about this on the ST thread, so sorry for repeating myself ! Briefly : 

 If you want a good explanation of why power is important and what the best power to use is, try reading the pages here. Paul Hynes' power supplies are amazingly good, and to be honest, probably better that the ST/STX needs.

Technical Issues

 cheers,

 tom


----------



## leeperry

180 GBP a pop? and you need one for 12V, and one for 5V!

 geez, I sure hope that the SQ will be drastically improved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and IMD/IMD+N measurements are very good on these cards in RMAA...so how could you measure the improvement? I don't trust my brain that much


----------



## mojave

Would something like the Emerson Network Power NLP65-9929J work? It has both a 5v and 12v output.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Mojave!

 This thing should work but do you know the spec of noise. How much does it cost? 
 For me it looks like a switched PSU?


----------



## leeperry

the ripple specs are bad, really bad.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_180 GBP a pop? and you need one for 12V, and one for 5V!

 geez, I sure hope that the SQ will be drastically improved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and IMD/IMD+N measurements are very good on these cards in RMAA...so how could you measure the improvement? I don't trust my brain that much 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, good power doesn't come cheap....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and tbh, overkill for the ST/STX... but they do sound great for power amps. I mean, REALLY REALLY GREAT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 PR3s are about US$100 a pop. Did you see the shunt regulators ? US$1,000. Major overkill....I haven't heard them....but man I'd LOVE to get one. I could sell a kidney....get two.....

 Hey, some things you can't measure, but you can hear. And some you can't hear, you can measure....

 It's not just ripple or noise that matters - the frequency of that ripple and/or noise must be over 50Khz or it will cause distortion. How about rise and settle times ? PSRR at high frequencies ? Output impedance ? Power is complicated stuff.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would something like the Emerson Network Power NLP65-9929J work? It has both a 5v and 12v output._

 

Not ideal - it has far more power than you need so although that'll mean you don't need a fan and it'll be very voltage stable, it is designed for lots of continuous juice (network ?), not pulses of pure juice (audio).

 If you want SMPS you should look for a switching frequency well over 100Khz and preferably nearer 1mHz because there'll be switching noise in the output so it needs to be well above any treble harmonics (40Khz is inaudible but is one octave above the audible so it affects the audible, some say 3 or 4 harmonics affect....so 320Khz minimum). It should be about 2A per channel (35W) so it stays well regulated under load. Other things are important too like PSRR and output impedance, but sometimes it is impossible to get this data. You can look at the last two chips that do the regulation and see what numbers they have on them - probably 7812 and 7805 - standard and okay regulators. Also look at the caps - if they are Sprague, Philips, Nichicon, Rubycon, no problem. Anything else and you're probably looking at very leaky crap caps that'll you have to replace. 

 But really, SMPS is not ideal. I use it because it is convenient, cheap, and I can test it on a friend's scope to see if it is okay or not. 

 I'd recommend a simple linear regulated supply. Do you what this is or how to make one ?


----------



## leeperry

well, I'm simply echoing what they say in the datasheet of that medical PSU...they say that they have very low inter-modulation distortion, which could relate to IMD/IMD+N for our use...and these are very low on the STX/ST.

 but yeah, I know I can hear a diff in the stereo soundstage between ST/STX...it's MUCH wider on the ST(like Burson says on their reclocking website), and this can't be measured w/o an oscilloscope


----------



## mojave

I don't know anything about power supplies, but I am great at searching for things. Some DACs use an external AC adapter. You can purchase one with a Molex connector from Wholesale Battery Supply for $17.95. I wonder if this would be any better than using the PC's power supply. 

 Danny Richie at GR-Research has a battery power supply kit for the Virtue Amp. It has a smart charger and can be connected to power all the time. Using this same concept, I would think one could get a 5v and 12v similiar to this 5v battery. You could have two lithium ion batteries in the computer connected to the USB headers. They would automatically recharge while providing extremely clean power to the Essence.


----------



## thoppa

Hi, 

 Yes you are the king of Google eh ! I'm crap with Google...

 The first one looks like a cheapy - your ATX will be better. 

 The second one looks interesting, but the 'continuously recharge' isn't a good idea. Chargers are notoriously rough power because batteries don't complain.

 Do a search for a 2A 12V regulator and see what you get ? If you can find someone who has built a small module with an input capacitor, regulator chip, and two other caps on it; that is the most basic linear regulator. You'll only need to add a toroidal transformer (US ? 110V....) for 220V to 0-15V and 0-9V rated as 30VA. Try audio pages if you can.

 Here's a circuit diagram of a regulator but it isn't exactly what your after. It is easy to adapt though.


----------



## thoppa

Hey, google did me proud....here is what I mean....but try for something better quality. 

Anykits Electronic Kits, Modules and Components


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, google did me proud....here is what I mean....but try for something better quality. 

Anykits Electronic Kits, Modules and Components




_

 

Looking nice! But any noise data=?


----------



## FallenAngel

It's a 7805, just look at datasheet. You're better off with the simple LM317/LM337-based PSU.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 A 7805 isn't great, it's okay, and it is VERY common, but this design won't suffer from switching noise because it is linear. A lot will depend on the quality of the caps, ICs, and to a lesser extent resistors. I just posted it as an example of the kind of thing to get. You can often find pin-for-pin replacements for all the components that offer lower noise etc and really it becomes a case of how much you want to spend.

 You can use LM317 in a similar design, but LM337 isn't suitable; it's a negative rail regulator.







 Tom


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

This is a really simple design I think! Have build it?


----------



## leeperry

hey GWorlDofSPACE, before spending anymore money....shouldn't you actually compare your pimped STX to some true HP amp?

 you said it sounded like a $500 amp to you....but you also said that you never tried one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't mean to be harsh, but this little STX of yours already cost ya a heftly load of cash...comparing it against some external gear(in S/PDIF or USB) would be fullfilling I think, just to check what time it is and know where you are at this point on the quality scale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe what's limiting the STX is not the PSU at this point..


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey GWorlDofSPACE, before spending anymore money....shouldn't you actually compare your pimped STX to some true HP amp?

 you said it sounded like a $500 amp to you....but you also said that you never tried one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't mean to be harsh, but this little STX of yours already cost ya a heftly load of cash...comparing it against some external gear(in S/PDIF or USB) would be fullfilling I think, just to check what time it is and know where you are at this point on the quality scale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe what's limiting the STX is not the PSU at this point.._

 

Hey I didnt say that. I said I did not have any other DACs to compare!!!
 I have heard a lot of amps! I also have a darkovoice 3322! Its a wonderful match whit my xonar essence.
 I have heard amps that costs many B!

 I would say it sounds really really good. I just have figured out that when I use my external PSU for 12V the sound is so crystal clear. The DAC has grown a level up in my eyes. For example I have a CD whit drums only. When I listen to it, the drums sound really realistic, I can imagine them in front of me just playing. They are detailed and not bloomed.


----------



## leeperry

alright, but still..ditching the crappy stock DIP8 holders and soldering the Burson's might be well worth your while for instance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 fotios did it: http://www.eal.gr/

 you'd need to do A/B comparisons to compare DAC's, using your memory is not really accurate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure it sounds good! but is it worth it to shell out another few benjamins for a new PSU? when you could get something really bad ass for the same amount the STX would cost ya in the end..


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_alright, but still..ditching the crappy stock DIP8 holders and soldering the Burson's might be well worth your while for instance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 fotios did it: welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine

 you'd need to do A/B comparisons to compare DAC's, using your memory is not really accurate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure it sounds good! but is it worth it to shell out another few benjamins for a new PSU? when you could get something really bad ass for the same amount the STX would cost ya in the end.._

 

Yes you right. I know that. I am doing it just for pleasure.
 My next upgrade I think would be the sockets. I will solder the bursons direct to the board. Then the caps must be replaced. Will see what will thoppa do?


----------



## leeperry

actually I've got some brand new fully gold plated DIP8 holders...but I've spoken to many ppl(including fotios), and swapping them is far from being child's play!

 even w/ a hot air station and a very skilled technician, it'll be a gamble....I'd rather not brick my card, especially considering that my replacement ST will come back from RMA early next week


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I know,...this card is very sensitive because of the hyper-grounding and multi-layer PCB. 
 What did happen whit your st=?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes you right. I know that. I am doing it just for pleasure.
 My next upgrade I think would be the sockets. I will solder the bursons direct to the board. Then the caps must be replaced. Will see what will thoppa do?_

 

Thats a good idea, I have milled gold plated sockets here, enough to do a entire ST Deluxe but I haven't got around to changing them out yet. When I do I will post picstures. The stock ones are just some generic pressed socket. They would be OK if you weren't changing out opamps as much as most of us are. The pressed ones are cheap and will start to offer poor connections. Milled models are much better for use by modders and opamps rollers.
 I guess soldering the Bursons directly to the board is even better idea if your planning on leaving them for good.


----------



## fzman

having built a psu for my stx, i can say that it does make a large improvement in sonics. i do not use the card for headphones, only line out. it is really two linear supplies in one box -- one for the 12v, one for the 5v. the psu was not cheap, and is completely point to point. i have also bought a pci-e to pci riser adaptor so i can externally power my prodigy hd-2, but have not done the project yet. 

 the sockets can be replaced, but you do need to be careful, and have a good desoldering tool. i have a second stx, which i got just to see what can be done-- if i kill it -- i still have the other one.....


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats a good idea, I have milled gold plated sockets here, enough to do a entire ST Deluxe but I haven't got around to changing them out yet. When I do I will post picstures. The stock ones are just some generic pressed socket. They would be OK if you weren't changing out opamps as much as most of us are. The pressed ones are cheap and will start to offer poor connections. Milled models are much better for use by modders and opamps rollers.
 I guess soldering the Bursons directly to the board is even better idea if your planning on leaving them for good._

 

But its a real problem to unsolder the stock-ones.


----------



## ROBSCIX

..not as hard as some people think.
 Anyway,
 Multi layer boards are tricky to desolder as you have to watch the heat but that is the same as any other solder or desoldering job.
 The through-holes are plated so as long as your quick and have a decent quality De-soldering tool should be easy enough. Atleast if you have some real skills in soldering as I would not recommend it to somebody that is new to soldering/desoldering.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_having built a psu for my stx, i can say that it does make a large improvement in sonics. i do not use the card for headphones, only line out. it is really two linear supplies in one box -- one for the 12v, one for the 5v. the psu was not cheap, and is completely point to point. i have also bought a pci-e to pci riser adaptor so i can externally power my prodigy hd-2, but have not done the project yet. 

 the sockets can be replaced, but you do need to be careful, and have a good desoldering tool. i have a second stx, which i got just to see what can be done-- if i kill it -- i still have the other one....._

 

How much have you spend for it?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know,...this card is very sensitive because of the hyper-grounding and multi-layer PCB. 
 What did happen whit your st=?_

 

yep, putting the new ones is dead easy, but desoldering the stock ones is hard as hell...and I'd say that both fotios and the EE friend I asked to are not exactly newbies, well they're not as smart as Robbie6...that's for sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus uses the lowest DIP8 socket quality available on the market(when a fully gold plated costs $0.5 or less in bulk)...and I was a victim of bad QA at the factory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this little joke cost me 20 EUR of RMA shipping costs and 3 weeks w/o my soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 look at the bottom row of the bottom socket, it's oxydated to death :





 this can't be good for proper contact, and the left channel sounded funny..it looks like a rusty second hand socket they took out from the bin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Auzen and HT.Omega use the same quality as fotios used, I wonder why Asus went cheapo on such an important part 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would so much love to put my gold sockets instead :


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

If you cant handle it, go to an prof.

 There must be a real difference between gold and cheap))


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well the stock sockets are just generic pressed sockets. Milled ones are better from a physical connection point of view.

 Your right though, if you don't have the skill take it to a person who does.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Do you know where I can find any info about the custom designed opamps?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you can't handle it, go to a pro.

 There must be a real difference between gold and cheap))_

 

lol, I don't think you read my last msg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 you put gold sockets first(or better, solder the burson's), then I'll think about it...every serious person(ie not jokers from the interwebb) I've spoken to has told me that it'd be a gamble.

 and anyway, in 6 months Asus will come up w/ the Asus ST Deluxe MK2 Reloaded....and I'll toss the ST anyhow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or hopefully, some other more serious manufacturer will come up w/ a ST-killer and properly written drivers, and no crappy DIP8 sockets


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well it is a gamble for a novice.

 If you have to ask another about it, they would consider you a novice.

 If you have any doubt, send it to a person with skills.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you know where I can find any info about the custom designed opamps?_

 

Not right off hand. 
 Study up on Analog electronics and amplifiers, if you have electronics experience it should not be too hard.
 I am not getting into that I already have enough PCB's going to the design house and more projects that aren't finished.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol, I don't think you read my last msg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you put gold sockets first(or better, solder the burson's), then I'll think about it...every serious person(ie not jokers from the interwebb) I've spoken to has told me that it'd be a gamble.

 and anyway, in 6 months Asus will come up w/ the Asus ST Deluxe MK2 Reloaded....and I'll toss the ST anyhow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or hopefully, some other more serious manufacturer will come up w/ a ST-killer and properly written drivers, and no crappy DIP8 sockets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You right! I told you! I said their must be a real difference between gold plated socket and cheap ones!!!!!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not right off hand. 
 Study up on Analog electronics and amplifiers, if you have electronics experience it should not be too hard.
 I am not getting into that I already have enough PCB's going to the design house and more projects that aren't finished.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No time for that right now. I think it would be very interesting to study this stuff.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I doubt you would notice any sonic gains, more the point is just to have a quality connection between the socket and opamp. The pressed ones start to fail after many change outs.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No time for that right now. I think it would be very interesting to study this stuff._

 

It is, I took many course one various design aspect of electronics in school awhile back but I still study and work with circuit simulators designing circuits and new projects.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Thats nice. When you will have something interested in custom design of opamps,
 just PM! I am really interested.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats nice. When you will have something interested in custom design of opamps,
 just PM! I am really interested._

 

Yes, I think many will be interested in these custom discretes. We still need to hammer out the details of the final design and other factors.
 I will let you know if your interested.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Reading around, I found an excellent DIY PSU. It's possible to build a 5V and 12V modules if you read through all the details. The design looks very good indeed - very low output impedance, transient response, etc; ideal for audio.

The &sigma;11 Regulated Power Supply

 I also got my APD smps psu on a scope and played around with the output caps. I found a 4700uF 25V Panasonic FC, a 10nF Vishay MKP and a 220uF 25V Elna Silmic II all in parallel across the output drops the noise and ripple down to 0.4mV peak-to-peak ( 0.14mV rms ) through a bandwidth up to 30Mhz - the limit of the scope's probe. It's quite smooth with no obvious waveforms evident at any Hz. The output before was about 2mv and not at all smooth so using the scope to set this up has been very very helpful !

 When I have more time, I'll start measuring PSU noise on the card across the Sanyos and then the regulators. 

 Cheers,

 Tom


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes real nice PSU! Try it!


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 It looks like a good supply eh ?! So many projects, so little time.....oh no wait, that should be so many girls, so little time.... haha. I like the look of the headphone amps they sell too, so I'm going to build the Mini3 next, just to see if a portable amp can drive HD650s well. So for now, I plan to keep using the APD smps psu for convenience and because I want to see what an smps power supply can do. If I can clean away all the switching noise (50Khz on this psu), and lower the output impedance then it should be able to compete with a linear supply. 

 What power supply are you using now ? I see the kingwa couldn't do 5V with enough current so I wonder what you decided to do ?

 Tom


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 Reading around, I found an excellent DIY PSU. It's possible to build a 5V and 12V modules if you read through all the details. The design looks very good indeed - very low output impedance, transient response, etc; ideal for audio.

The &sigma;11 Regulated Power Supply

 I also got my APD smps psu on a scope and played around with the output caps. I found a 4700uF 25V Panasonic FC, a 10nF Vishay MKP and a 220uF 25V Elna Silmic II all in parallel across the output drops the noise and ripple down to 0.4mV peak-to-peak ( 0.14mV rms ) through a bandwidth up to 30Mhz - the limit of the scope's probe. It's quite smooth with no obvious waveforms evident at any Hz. The output before was about 2mv and not at all smooth so using the scope to set this up has been very very helpful !

 When I have more time, I'll start measuring PSU noise on the card across the Sanyos and then the regulators. 

 Cheers,

 Tom_

 

The Sigma 11 (and Sigma 22) are excellent power supplies. A very experienced Head-Fi'er and DIY'er, Ti, produced the designs. I own the the Sigma 11 (for my M^3) and can attest to the improvement it makes to the sound of the amp.

 BTW, for anyone who doesn't know, Ti (AMB), is also the one responsible for designing the Beta22, the best solid-state headphone-amp currently available, as well as the M^3, its little brother. So, I wouldn't hesitate to pursue this project.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I have tested the Kingwa PSU, the 12V line whit combination of 5V from PC PSU and the results where not so good. The sound was clearer but the bass field was bad. There must be something special about the power supply on stx. Now I am thinking to experiment whit the caps maybe and then will see. I am counting on your little PSU project.)


----------



## thoppa

Hi guys,

 It's good to hear the Sigma 11 PSU is so good - it seems quite easy to adapt it to give 5V 2A and 12V 2A. It's on the the top of my projects to-do list ! How much better is the Beta 22 amp over the M3 ? with HD650s ?

 Bass on both the ST and STX are not wonderful IMO. I see the RMAA tests show a flat freq response but it certainly doesn't sound that way. Even Opa2134 don't lift the bass that much. I don't think this is the power supply but the way power is handled on the card. I have a strong suspicion that it is the 6 Nichicon FG 220uF being used near the op amps and headphone amp. The Sanyo Oscons on the input are not the best for audio but they are probably very necessary because they have a very low impedance at high frequencies and helped to reduce smps noise.

 Looking at the psu I'm using on a scope, my supply is pretty smooth now except for a very small amount of switching noise at 50Khz and the inevitable and irritating RF/EMI noise too. The 4700uF FC caps I use have very low impedance (ESR is something like 0.016 ohms if I remember right) so I should be able to get pretty good dynamics - that size cap would be good for 3 amps plus transients - far more than this card draws. 

 Cheers,

 Tom


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,

 It's good to hear the Sigma 11 PSU is so good - it seems quite easy to adapt it to give 5V 2A and 12V 2A. It's on the the top of my projects to-do list ! How much better is the Beta 22 amp over the M3 ? with HD650s ?

 Bass on both the ST and STX are not wonderful IMO. I see the RMAA tests show a flat freq response but it certainly doesn't sound that way. Even Opa2134 don't lift the bass that much. I don't think this is the power supply but the way power is handled on the card. I have a strong suspicion that it is the 6 Nichicon FG 220uF being used near the op amps and headphone amp. The Sanyo Oscons on the input are not the best for audio but they are probably very necessary because they have a very low impedance at high frequencies and helped to reduce smps noise.

 Looking at the psu I'm using on a scope, my supply is pretty smooth now except for a very small amount of switching noise at 50Khz and the inevitable and irritating RF/EMI noise too. The 4700uF FC caps I use have very low impedance (ESR is something like 0.016 ohms if I remember right) so I should be able to get pretty good dynamics - that size cap would be good for 3 amps plus transients - far more than this card draws. 

 Cheers,

 Tom_

 

I was disappointed by the STX's headphone amp. I just use its DAC (line-outs) to feed the M^3, which is significantly better. I haven't heard the Beta22, but am planning to upgrade to one when I get the chance. I've done my reading, and it's a giant leap up from the STX and quite a big one from the M^3 as well. Ofcourse, it also costs much more.

 Regarding the bass on the STX, through its line-outs, I find the STX has great bass. As I said, the amp section leaves much to be desired.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I agree about the bass as I have always found the cards to have reasonable bass.
 I don't use the head amp out though.
 If the card is measuring flat according to your test then it is a balanced response so there should be no loss of bass maybe it is something else in the circuit, such as the cans or the speakers? -Just a guess. 

 @Sharose, I am also considering building a new amplifier...


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I haven't been using the RCA out very much. I initially connected it up to my amps and speakers and rolled a few op amps. It sounded fine and I gave the credit for this to the AD8620BR in the buffer. Although the DAC on the board is great, I prefer my heavily modified MD10 for my amps and speakers, so I've been using the optical output of the Asus to feed the MD10 instead of using the onboard DAC. For me, the onboard DAC is there to create a good signal for a headphone amp. Perhaps when the card has a better XO I might start using the onboard DAC instead of my MD10, but at this stage my MD10 is still giving me a better sound.

 So I have been thinking about how to get HD650s to sound right using the TPA6120. On paper it seems like an excellent amp but perhaps it isn't getting enough voltage, or enough juice, or both. Any ideas why it doesn't do so well ? There aren't any caps in the signal path around this amp so the only components that can be changed to create a significant improvement are the caps on the power supply rails. However, as you guys have noted the RCA out is fine, so I think I must be wrong to think it is the caps. Or perhaps the caps and the amp aren't so happy with each other ? It could also be the power delivery, voltage, etc, or perhaps the circuit itself is not as good as it should be ?

 Do you guys know anyone who has built a TPA6120 based headphone amp ?

 Maybe I should just move on and build a Beta 22 ! 

 Thanks,

 Tom

 PS I forgot to ask - ignoring op amp changes, and any other mods, do you guys think this card has a generally bright sound to it ? Or does yours sound neutral ? Warm ? Mine is quite bright - which seems nice at first and actually isn't fatiguing over time, but equally, it doesn't sound 100% natural. With op amp changes it sounds almost natural but still a little colder/brighter than I'd like. I wonder how much of this is due to different computers. BTW my HD650 are the latest generation with the silver baffle material.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe I should just move on and build a Beta 22 !_

 

I also have the silver-baffled HD650s as my primary cans. They scale very well with better gear. Building a Beta22 would be stepping into a whole new territory. One where you best be prepared to spend $800-1500 and 1-2 months of planning/build-time for a single-ended setup. You should go do some reading the DIY section and headwize. I don't want to throw this thread off-track by delving too deep into this discussion, but I will say that if you do choose to build a Beta, it will most likely be the end of the road for you in terms of solid state amps. There's nothing better for 2-3 times the cost.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Sharose, I am also considering building a new amplifier..._

 

Back on topic: Rob, I think that would be a wise decision. It would really bring the best out of the STX's line-outs with the op-amp upgrades. The CKKIII is the best value IME. It's very close to the M^3 in performance (also has a more neutral sound signature/slightly airier soundstage) and costs a fraction of the M^3's parts to build. For about $200, you would have an amp that's considerably better than the STX's.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS I forgot to ask - ignoring op amp changes, and any other mods, do you guys think this card has a generally bright sound to it ? Or does yours sound neutral ? Warm ? Mine is quite bright - which seems nice at first and actually isn't fatiguing over time, but equally, it doesn't sound 100% natural. With op amp changes it sounds almost natural but still a little colder/brighter than I'd like. I wonder how much of this is due to different computers. BTW my HD650 are the latest generation with the silver baffle material._

 

The LME49720NA, LME49720HA / LME49710HA are what I use and I think they sound more natural than the stock opamps, which I feel have a relatively constricted soundstage/depth as well as a harsh glare in the treble that seems omnipresent at times. This is probably what you're hearing as well.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I tried the LME49720MA (smt on adapters) and they are great quality but didn't sound natural to me. Nice sound but not what I'm after and that's mostly because of the soundstage and the high end treble. They were much better in the STX than the ST. Just too much in the ST really. I chose AD8599 for I/V for the ST just cos they sound the most natural to my ears. Funnily enough, I found the Ad8599 tended to scream just a little in the STX. Go figure.

 But it isn't the op amp sound I'm thinking about.

 Whatever op amp I chose I still got some consistent characteristics that I assume belong to the card itself. I wonder if you guys hear this character too and what you make of it. I assumed it was the Nichicons because the Nichicons I've used in other prjects produce this kind of detailed, bright, slightly cold sound. I won't go so far as to say aggressive, but definitely far from laid back.

 Getting back to the power, because of my XO upgrade issue, I haven't actually tested my improved PSU yet. Maybe that will make the difference.

 Cheers


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whatever op amp I chose I still got some consistent characteristics that I assume belong to the card itself. I wonder if you guys hear this character too and what you make of it. I assumed it was the Nichicons because the Nichicons I've used in other prjects produce this kind of detailed, bright, slightly cold sound. I won't go so far as to say aggressive, but definitely far from laid back.

 Getting back to the power, because of my XO upgrade issue, I haven't actually tested my improved PSU yet. Maybe that will make the difference.

 Cheers_

 

This seems to be stemming from some other part of the chain. It can't be the STX because there isn't a hint of harshness in mine and I've always preferred smooth and warm over bright and cold. It could be your speakers or amplifier. Also, check your PSU (and power cord) and for other noisy components inside the PC that could be adding interference and glare.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I didn't hear any harshness with the STX I had, although I must admit I wasn't that impressed with spdif output - a noticeable amount of mush from, I assume, too much jitter. 

 I don't think the ST is harsh either - it just doesn't have the kind of character I like. I picked my words carefully - bright, and a little cold - and this, for me, over-emphasizes details just a tad. No glare to speak of - no sudden crescendoes or anything like that. It isn't a fault as such - just character.

 It seems your STX is nicely balanced ? 

 You are right I might have a power issue. I'm looking into that !

 Cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Back on topic: Rob, I think that would be a wise decision. It would really bring the best out of the STX's line-outs with the op-amp upgrades. The CKKIII is the best value IME. It's very close to the M^3 in performance (also has a more neutral sound signature/slightly airier soundstage) and costs a fraction of the M^3's parts to build. For about $200, you would have an amp that's considerably better than the STX's._

 

I am considering building a DIY tube kit or just designing a new one. Further research will tell me which is the best way to go for me. I am considering picking up some new HD650's so a nice tube amplifier would be the way to go I think.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Thoppa, From post #186
 I know the can amp chip is swinging +/-12V, I am unsure that helps with your power question. I may have current values around also..I will have a look.
 If it helps, there is also a memeber in the DIY forum that built an external headphones amplifier using this chip.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

But the jitter of digital output is much better if you upgrade the clock crystal.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Thoppa, From post #186
 I know the can amp chip is swinging +/-12V, I am unsure that helps with your power question. I may have current values around also..I will have a look.
 If it helps, there is also a memeber in the DIY forum that built an external headphones amplifier using this chip._

 

That does help - I was wondering if it was running a single rail of 12V - which might explain the weaker than expected performance; or if there is a voltage inverter circuit that creates a -12V line for the amp. BTW, how do you know this ? 

 If it is running from +/-12V lines then it should be able to swing about 80% of that - something like 20Vpp. That ability should be enough for HD650s to sound reasonable at low volume (5Vpp ?). 

 How about the current ? If you do know or can find out, please post it. The datasheet says up to 700mA per channel but I imagine that is for the min load of 16 ohms. It may be that the amp is current starved but I hardly think this likely for HD650s. 

 Again, all I can think of doing to improve this amp's performance is fitting better caps on the supply rails and improving the power supply and power circuits. If that doesn't work, well, I don't know what else can be done.

 Here are some scope shots of the PSU output before and after I played with the caps. The FC 4700uF provide the greatest smoothing but the SilmicII 220uF are almost as good ! The 10nF suppresses the background HF spikes a little; it actually doesn't do much at all so with the KISS principle in mind, I took it off. Maybe I'll try to find a better cap for this one day. The noise level was lower with the PSU out of the case. No surprises there, but it means it doesn't achieve the level I posted earlier. Oh well.

 Voltage per major division is 2mV, time is set to 500Khz on the first one if I remember correctly (?) and 50Khz on the second as this gives the worst noise/ripple.

 Before. A horror show and worse than the ATX.







 After. Reasonable for SMPS. The ripple is better than the ATX but the noise is about the same.






 So I think I'm going to have to build a linear supply after all.


----------



## leeperry

hah, shocking!


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hah, shocking!_

 

Only if you lick it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I prefer the term 'revealing'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It certainly explains why I didn't hear any improvement ! What's equally worrying is that all the smps power supplies I have hooked up to the scope are showing switching noise of varying degrees. I've never heard 'good' results using smps power for audio gear ( I tried them with class-T amps ) and now at last I can see why. I wish I'd had a scope before. They rock ! Anyway, if you look at the first plot, you'll see 2 big fat spikes. "They all do that mister". 

 What was also very interesting is how good the SilmicII caps are. The FC are no slouch but the SilmicII are in another class.

 So I'm going to get a 50VA 2x 0-15V toroidal and a couple of lm317 1.5A regs. I have most of the other stuff I'll need already.

 Anyone wanna buy a nice smps psu ? One careful owner.....

 EDIT : PSU

 I've ordered two Talema toroids - one 30VA 2x 15v and another 25VA 2x 9V. http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.c...6b80080147.pdf

 Eight ultra fast diodes, 8A 200V http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.c...6b80b220c5.pdf

 And two of the best LM317AT I could find as they go up to 2A apparently. http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.c...6b807800d6.pdf

 The rest of the stuff I already have. PSU will cost around US$80 including the stuff I have.


----------



## thoppa

Here's a bit more info for anyone interested.

 I measured the voltage across the TPA6120 and found 11.86V and -11.91V.

 I located the inverter - it's a small 8-pin chip, op amp size, just above the 330 inductor, near the molex input. It connects its output directly onto the negative rail that feeds the TPA6120. At some point I'm gonna have to look around for the specs for this. 

 I changed the caps on the TPA6120 to see if the FG are significantly colouring the sound. It was a complete PITA to do this - this board is a real pig to work on, especially the through-hole stuff. And the result was, no, no heavy colouration. I changed them to 220uF SilmicII which are mounted in from the other side. 

 I also measured noise using a scope on the power lines from the PC's components. There's a significant increase in noise, especially from the hard drives. Getting them to defrag created a constant increase that made the total noise on my ATX supply jump by about 10mVpp. 

 cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a bit more info for anyone interested.

 I measured the voltage across the TPA6120 and found 11.86V and -11.91V.

 I located the inverter - it's a small 8-pin chip, op amp size, just above the 330 inductor, near the molex input. It connects its output directly onto the negative rail that feeds the TPA6120. At some point I'm gonna have to look around for the specs for this. 

 I changed the caps on the TPA6120 to see if the FG are significantly colouring the sound. It was a complete PITA to do this - this board is a real pig to work on, especially the through-hole stuff. And the result was, no, no heavy colouration. I changed them to 220uF SilmicII which are mounted in from the other side. 

 I also measured noise using a scope on the power lines from the PC's components. There's a significant increase in noise, especially from the hard drives. Getting them to defrag created a constant increase that made the total noise on my ATX supply jump by about 10mVpp. 

 cheers_

 

Yes, that is what I said +/- 12 Volts. I thought your considering building a external PSU? Here is the spec sheet for the TPA6120->Link


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Yes, you did say +/-12, and the specs in the ST manual quotes the SNR for the TPA6120 at +/-12 too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and the card achieves almost 99% of this. 

 I wanted to know what the rails are because this is part of knowing more about the power circuits on this board. If I build a semi-decent linear supply, I'd like to know that the onboard regs etc aren't going to mess that up, and perhaps if they too should be upgraded. 

 This might seem overkill, esp as a better card will come out in a year or two, but hey, it's a fun hobby for me...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well most of us mod for the fun of it. We know there is always another card coming that will offer higher grade sound. -Then we can mod that one also!

 If your going to clean up the power you need to understand the entire power distribution circuit and where you should concentrate your attention as you said.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Yes indeed ! It's a great way to learn more too !

 Here are some photos of this evening's efforts.

 U25 is the inverter. Top right. If anyone wants to look this up, please post what you find !






 SilmicII ( my favourite electrolytic  )






 And the TPA headphone section


----------



## ROBSCIX

Those 8599 are known to be a bit touchy. Did you check them with the scope to verify they are working as they should?


----------



## Apocalypsee

May I ask something? Does the two caps near the I/V opamp is the power caps for opamp? How about the two near the RCA out? From the datasheet I don't see the analog out requires that big capacitor, so I wonder what does it for


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those 8599 are known to be a bit touchy. Did you check them with the scope to verify they are working as they should?_

 

I checked them with my ears.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_May I ask something? Does the two caps near the I/V opamp is the power caps for opamp? How about the two near the RCA out? From the datasheet I don't see the analog out requires that big capacitor, so I wonder what does it for_

 

I haven't checked, but I'd assume they are all for the op amps. I/V would have a pair and the buffer would have a pair.

 I only changed the TPA6120 caps to see if the FG had an obviously strong signature. Now I know they don't, I doubt I'll change the others - too much trouble for very little reward.


----------



## thoppa

Hmmm,,, I think I got it wrong. I think the inverter might be U35.

 For example :

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps63700.pdf

 I think the other chip, U25, is a booster.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey thoppa!

 You said the work on psu is going on. I was thinking to buy q11 or 2 q11 boards and make a PSU. But I am not really an electronics guy, so I have only soldering skills and some basics in electronics. I would really need some help from one of you to configure the right parts on q11 or q22 to build a PSU for essence.


----------



## thoppa

Come on ! You did a better job with the XO than me - did you see my soldering ? Too much coffee...

 The psu you are talking about - is it this one ? AMB Sigma 11 ?

The &sigma;11 Regulated Power Supply

 Is that too difficult ? It's a lot like painting by numbers really. Just knowing your positive from negative and all that....which way a transistor goes in...

 I would like to be able to keep everything in my PC ( a small Asus barebone ) so I don't have space for it, that's why I'm going for a simple LM317 psu.

LM317AT pdf, LM317AT description, LM317AT datasheets, LM317AT view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::

 Check out page 14, the "adjustable regulator with improved ripple reduction" circuit. 

 I am happy to help when I can but I should say that I only have some basic qualifications in electronics. I did mech eng at uni ! And that was too much maths so I became a teacher. "If you can, do, if you can't, teach."  I don't consider myself an expert at all. But I will help you if I can. 

 Better help will come from AMB themselves to be honest. I bought a Mini3 from them and they were very helpful and patient answering my questions. So I'd suggest you get in touch with them and ask them if they think you should try. 

 I'd try. Just for the 'fun' factor. Just be careful with live mains, go slowly, check everything before you solder it, after you solder it, and then later before you power it up, but you probably do this already eh ? Looking at your work so far, I'd say you are easily up to the job !

 Tom


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I will ask them. I already have the transformer. So I must calculate the parts.
 What do you think is it worth to build a PSU according to regulations circuit of the essence? Once I asked Kingwa about it and he said the DAC can good sound because of the nature how it is implemented in the ATX standards.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 The inverter and power pump circuit that create the -12v line are switching systems, so I assume they will be introducing smps-type noise, but I haven't worked out or measured how much yet, or at what frequencies. It may be significant enough to be worth creating a -12v line and injecting that instead of using the onboard circuit. It may be nothing to worry about.

 There are also 7805 and 7812 low-dropout regulators onboard. I haven't found out anything about these either. 

 What I plan to do is get my linear supply running as soon as the back-ordered parts arrive, and then get my scope onto the card to see what's going on with noise and ripple across the audio bandwidth and a fair bit above. After that, I'll have a much better idea of what can be done.

 In a perfect world, I'd remove the whole onboard PSU and just have some decoupling caps for a remote PSU with +/-12v, 5v and perhaps 3.3v too. For me though, that isn't practical.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Would be nice though.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 The inverter and power pump circuit that create the -12v line are switching systems, so I assume they will be introducing smps-type noise, but I haven't worked out or measured how much yet, or at what frequencies. It may be significant enough to be worth creating a -12v line and injecting that instead of using the onboard circuit. It may be nothing to worry about.

 There are also 7805 and 7812 low-dropout regulators onboard. I haven't found out anything about these either. 

 What I plan to do is get my linear supply running as soon as the back-ordered parts arrive, and then get my scope onto the card to see what's going on with noise and ripple across the audio bandwidth and a fair bit above. After that, I'll have a much better idea of what can be done.

 In a perfect world, I'd remove the whole onboard PSU and just have some decoupling caps for a remote PSU with +/-12v, 5v and perhaps 3.3v too. For me though, that isn't practical._

 

Thats a good idea to bypass the -12V line! Please when you have found something new, post it!!!


----------



## ROBSCIX

You cannot bypass the -12 volt line, you can bypass the - supply circuitry and connect a direct 12 volt line.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Here is a contribution from a great guy Fotios Anagnostou. He is an expert and has closely looked at the PSU section of essence. He has wrote me this:

_For the external supply, I had the same idea like you. But after an examination of xonar essence I find that this is impossible. The reason is this, because Asus is under the compulsion to keep its products compatible with the internal connectors offered from the PSU of PC, the xonar essence it is shipped from the factory with the usual 4 pole power socket (Red=+5V, Black=0V, Black=0V, Yellow=+12V). Because the analog ICs have the need of a symmetrical supply of +/-12V at least to operate, the -12V is obtained on the sound card via a positive to negative converter IC. Consequently, there is no case for an intervention on the power supply of xonar without risk of damage. Moreover, you can see by alone that although the PSU of PC it offers ready a -12V line (I think the orange cable) it is not used by the sound card! On the back side of sound card and near the power connector, there is a whole circuitry of conversion, stabilizing and filtering of the supply voltage offered from the PSU of PC. The ripple rejection it is very good.

 The real thing is found in other point. I use the LM4560 in some of my constructions (like preamplifiers) and I have checked their performance under different supply voltages. To get - at least – the 90% of their performance, a supply of +/-15V is necessary. With a supply of +/-18V the LM4560 it really flies! The sound it is incomparable with +/-18V! Unfortunately on the xonar essence, the LM4560 as well all the rest analog ICs are supplied with a poor voltage of +/-12V. And the result is that, those ICs offers only the 80-85% of their performance. And because all parts are SMD any intervention on the power supply of the card is impossible as I said.

 As for the output noise of xonar essence, it is from the lowest that I have measured in any sound card. In my web page welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine you can see a picture of the real output noise that I have measured with a digital oscilloscope. It is only 3,6mVrms.
_
 You can see his work here:
welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a contribution from a great guy Fotios Anagnostou. He is an expert and has closely looked at the PSU section of essence. He has wrote me this:

For the external supply, I had the same idea like you. But after an examination of xonar essence I find that this is impossible. The reason is this, because Asus is under the compulsion to keep its products compatible with the internal connectors offered from the PSU of PC, the xonar essence it is shipped from the factory with the usual 4 pole power socket (Red=+5V, Black=0V, Black=0V, Yellow=+12V). Because the analog ICs have the need of a symmetrical supply of +/-12V at least to operate, the -12V is obtained on the sound card via a positive to negative converter IC. Consequently, there is no case for an intervention on the power supply of xonar without risk of damage. Moreover, you can see by alone that although the PSU of PC it offers ready a -12V line (I think the orange cable) it is not used by the sound card! On the back side of sound card and near the power connector, there is a whole circuitry of conversion, stabilizing and filtering of the supply voltage offered from the PSU of PC. The ripple rejection it is very good.

 The real thing is found in other point. I use the LM4560 in some of my constructions (like preamplifiers) and I have checked their performance under different supply voltages. To get - at least – the 90% of their performance, a supply of +/-15V is necessary. With a supply of +/-18V the LM4560 it really flies! The sound it is incomparable with +/-18V! Unfortunately on the xonar essence, the LM4560 as well all the rest analog ICs are supplied with a poor voltage of +/-12V. And the result is that, those ICs offers only the 80-85% of their performance. And because all parts are SMD any intervention on the power supply of the card is impossible as I said.

 As for the output noise of xonar essence, it is from the lowest that I have measured in any sound card. In my web page welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine you can see a picture of the real output noise that I have measured with a digital oscilloscope. It is only 3,6mVrms.

 You can see his work here:
welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine_

 

Very valuable info. Thanks.


----------



## leeperry

yeah fotios is not a clown, I asked him to join this board a while ago...but he's too busy I guess


----------



## ROBSCIX

His information is a bit off in that: He says it is avialable but is not used. Not so,
 The -12 volts is not used by the soundcard from the supply because -12 volts is not available through the molex connector nor the PCI-X1. 
 IIRC, There is no way to get -12 from the system supply through normal connections.
 You have to get creative with the circuitry which is what they did to get the +/-12 supplies. It is common to use charge pump circuitry or negative supply chips to get such inverted supplies. 

 Molex
 We have:
 1. Yellow +12 V
 2. Black GND
 3. Black GND
 4. Red +5V

 I will save time and space and not lay out all the signals on the PCI-EX1 bus. There is no -12 Volts there either...

 @GWorlDofSPACE, you can still mod the card in this manner but you will have to bypass all this negative supply circuitry. Thoppa already mentioned going around it and injecting the -12 signal after the negative supply portion.
 To note, It would be a very hard job and you are definately asking for a dead card.. You can modify the card however you want. Just takes time, tools and the know how...

 I spoke with Fotios awhile back regarding the input circuitry on the STX. Good guy..IIRC.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I just found another LM317 based supply that I'm sure other headfiyers know about. Here it is :

Tangent Regulator, Adjustable, plus Diode bridge

 I also stopped by a local shop to see what they had and found this. Just changing one resistor and adding an adjustment capacitor will change this to a suitable supply. Of course, a transformer is needed too. 

http://www.weclonline.com/eng/produc...p?id=50125191#

 It was just US$6. I got two and will be adapting them for use with the TPA6120 EVM when it arrives.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Do you have the skills to design PCB's? 
 Maybe it may be easier just to approach this issue from the ground floor. Build a PSU design especially for this circuit and have some PCB's fabricated for the circuit.

 Are you planning on figuring out the audible tweaks and hints for the TPA6120 eval. Module when it arrives? 
 This way you know what to change in the ST to get the soudn your after?
 That second link up there doesn't link up.


----------



## thoppa

Hi Rob,

 I don't have the tools or skills or experience to design PCBs, although I do understand the principles, so I tend to use through-hole-blank PCBs and play around with component locations so there is the minimal path between each component, no path crossovers, and minimal solder joins. If I do have to use a hook up wire then I try to use a twisted pair with a ground wire to minimise noise. Is there anything else to avoid I haven't mentioned ?

 For the EVM, I am first going to try changing the gain to increase stability so I can lower the output impedance until it becomes unstable again or noise increases noticeably. I'll do some trial and error to develop a rough relationship in my head and then try to get the minimum output impedance possible. I may have to stick with the current 10ohm but I hope I can lower this. Do you happen to know what the capacitance of the HD650 are ?

 Although the datasheet says caps in the feedback path are a no-no, I will also try a feedback loop with a cap and resistor in series and another resistor in parallel to create a shelving bass boost if I can. If this doesn't work I'll add a bass control op-amp circuit. I might also try a zobel to flatten the HD650 impedance curve. Something like this :






 The left hand side doesn't look practical. It's the right hand side HF correction that looks interesting :






 The PSU link does work for me - dunno why it doesn't for you. 

 You won't be impressed with the psu module !

 It needs modifying and the components used are cheap. I'll especially need to get a larger heatsink, replace the diodes with schottkies, get better caps - I basically got it for the PCB, the regulator and the trim pot ! 

 For the ST psu, I am pushing the limit of the dropout voltage on the lm317 and assuming my mains electricity is very stable so I can have the minimum sized toroid, and thus minimise the heat dissipation and the size of the heatsink. That's all about space and heat; the curse of having a cute looking barebone. 

 It's stalled at the moment - waiting for back-ordered parts.

 Are you thinking about making a PSU for the ST ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well, if you come up with a good design and want a PCB let me know and I will do the designs and layouts for you from a schematic. 
 I also have and frequently use electronic modelling software Ala' EWB and Multi Sim to test out any designs and look for issues and/or get real time measurments from the circuit.

 Speaking of which do you use modelling software for your "tinkering" or prototype work? 
 For such work as your doing right now it would be perfect as you can build and test the circuit on the screen long before you pick up a soldering iron.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Thanks for the offer. I can get copper board here and use an etcher to cut lines if I decide to go that way but I doubt I will if the psu tests well for ripple and noise.

 I haven't used modelling software. I don't know if it would be worth it considering I'm making tried-and-tested designs. After all, I know I'm going to get ripple at 100Hz (50Hz supply) and that the main issue is reducing this and avoiding noise and excessive heat production, while staying within the limits of regulation. I am well out of any oscillation range. 

 There's a good online regulator power supply calculator here :

Power Supply Parameter Estimator 

 If you have any links to free modelling software, please post them. No harm trying.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Oh, you can do it that way but getting them etch professionally is so much easier and quite cheap for a smaller board. Either way is up to you. I can send you the artwork and you can do what you want with it. I can etch at hom also but havne;t bothered doing that in a few years.

 The modelling wouldn't be good for a know design UNLESS you want more details on the operation. Frequencies..current,voltages...etc. You have multiple tools at your disposal. If your into hobby electronics I definatley suggest you try it out.
 Modelling is so much easier then proto board. I guess you have O-scope so that really helps also.


----------



## thoppa

Even easier is just to buy a PCB - there are lots out there. Here's another :

Power Supply for Preamps

 Yes, a scope is an absolute must for this kind of thing ! I hope my neighbour never asks for it back


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sure, maybe easier to use a ready made design. Just offering my PCB expertise if needed for the project


----------



## thoppa

Thanks Rob 

 Hey I got bored waiting for the parts and replaced two more power caps - this time I did the ones for the op amps. I also tried the LME49720MA again - and was surprised that they didn't sound 'too much' like they had before. This must be partly due to the changed XO and part the SilmicII caps.

 This sound quality of this card is really coming on now. I can't wait to give it some decent juice !


----------



## ROBSCIX

Do you notice a difference in sound based on the new power caps?
 That reminds me, I have to order some caps for my modding.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I can't say for sure. The first two for the TPA6120 seemingly made no difference. If I had changed all four at once and could do ab testing then I reckon I could say but as I didn't, I have to say I don't know. 

 I got my prototype PSU working today - YAHOO ! The 12v line is set to 12.06V and the 5V line to 5.02V. After an hour of use the 5V supply with a 12C/W heatsink is at 54 degrees and the 12V is at 48 degrees. I hooked them up to the scope and noise and ripple are below the limits of the scope (0.4mV). They cool down quite quickly too - down to 30 degrees in 10 minutes. So all seems fine but I'd like a bit more cooling, ideally to drop both to 40 degrees.

 Oh, except that now the LME49720 sound 'too much' again ! So I'm going back to AD8599 in the I/V. I'll get the psu into a case and install that in the PC and then do some AB testing with the ATX power. I can hear slightly more definition but the AB testing should help me establish what exactly has changed.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Great stuff!


----------



## thoppa

Yeah, no pops, no smoke, no noise... I got lucky  .....until today when I carelessly shorted a cap and blew its head off ! That's never happened before ! I didn't know it was possible and it gave me one hell of a fright. But all is well again now.

 I did some testing and the difference is actually quite subtle - better dynamics and definition. The ATX supply sounds a little flat and lifeless by comparison. It wasn't a big change but I'm glad I did it because it does sound better.

 The law of diminishing returns seems to be kicking in now so I'm gonna leave things as they are. Great is good enough


----------



## ROBSCIX

Every little bit helps.


----------



## thoppa

Sure ! But this little bit cost quite a lot relative to the gain. I think changing the feedback caps in the op amp circuits would be a better use of money.

 I also tested the voltages on the card - the regulation is fine. There is a voltage increase to 14.8V and that is then fed to the regulators and then a 12V inverter. There's no real need to try to bypass the power circuit on this card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

No the clean up and ripple circuitry look great on this card. Although I haven't tested it with a O-scope yet.


----------



## leeperry

so how did this come out?

 anyway, I'm gonna try the Corsair 400W I think...I haven't been able to find ripple measurements for my BeQuiet 500W 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




CanardPC.com - Hardware > Alimentation > Alimentations ATX 2009 > Corsair CX 400 Watts

 it's got very impressives figures : 3.3V / 5V / 12V
 20% load: 10.6 mV / 5.4 mV / 7.4 mV
 100% load: 27.2 mV / 14 mV / 21.2 mV

 if you check the other pages of this test, the Corsair HX620 gives 40mV on the 12V at full load...the third level harmonics are lower on the Antec 380W, but 380W is really not gonna cut it. Also, the sinus is almost perfect.

 the DSP of my soundcard works in 5V and the op-amps are fed from the 12V rail I think(they get ±9V), so hopefully the 5.4 mV ripple will be audible


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 The card has onboard regulators so I doubt you'll hear much, if any, difference between one ATX smps and another, unless their specs are way different. You should try to find out transient response too - this is critical with music.

 From using my scope, I saw that there is a lot of noise generated by the PC (hard disks mostly) and that adds to what the ATX supply is giving out. The only way to eliminate this is to have an independent supply. Do any of the ATX supplies provide independent power rails that you can use exclusively for the soundcard ? 

 The other thing I saw is that the demands of music create noise - the best example I got was Rihanna , please don't stop the music. The bass needs sudden power surges to avoid clipping and these surges create noise as the regulation struggles to maintain the voltage during the power surges. I actually saw the noise spike with every bass thump. It almost doubles ! What became obvious is that both smps supplies didn't behave as well as the linear supply did under such conditions. Listening backed this up - the bass comes in faster and harder and there is more definition and faster decay with the linear supply. Basically, the linear supply feeds the onboard regulators better and they are a lot happier meeting the transient demands than either of the smps supplies were. 

 If I was going to say why, I'd say primarily it is the size of the transformers - the VA rating - as they are a big store of energy. SMPS uses smaller ones at higher frequencies and linear power uses bigger ones at low frequencies. There are other factors too like the quality, capacity, ESR, leakage etc of the caps. Anyway, no question is left in my mind that for audio, linear psu is better than smps.

 Having said all that, the differences when listening are slight and there are far better upgrades to be done with the money unless you have a particularly poor ATX, which doesn't seem to be the case. 

 Get a better XO fitted.


----------



## leeperry

AFAIK, most dual rail PSU's use one for the CPU 12V and the other one for the remaining plugs...some high end PSU's carry 4 rails, but these get expensive I think.

 Actually I think ppl recommend single rails, and this Corsair only has one too...but this is frowned upon by the ATX standards, one single rail should not output >20A I think. and I understand a single rail might not be a good thing for audio, but a lot of PSU's use a single rail and lie about it to pass the ATX specs.

 yes, this french site also tests transients and says that they are very fast on that Corsair...in the 10µs region.

 and also that its pink background noise is very low...anyway, it won't cost me much to swap it, and these killer measurements keep me craving 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ah well, I found the XO story to be a mixed bag on the STX>ST upgrade I made....its CMI8788 seems to be way too jittery to make it worth its while IMVHO. I'm very happy w/ my HD2 using LT1364, just trying to get a better PSU at this point 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 also my mobo doesn't have an option to disable Spread Spectrum, so it's next on the list!


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 10ms is 100Hz. That really isn't at all impressive so I wonder what they are testing.....current surge response ? But anyway, as an example, your LT1364 have a voltage response time (settling time) of 50ns - milli, micro, nano - 20,000,000Hz. That's why they have a high bandwidth; far more than is needed for audio. They also have a huge slew rate of 1000. Of course, the specs are based on a bench testing psu, not an ATX psu.....

 I really don't think you're going to much, if any, difference, but I guess you can try and see eh ? Why not ?


----------



## leeperry

well they said exactly :
  Quote:


 even better, the CX400 offers extremely fast transitions, in the 10 microseconds order. Voltage will stabilize very quickly after an important variation of consumed current. 
 

microseconds is µs, not ms? I always goof up w/ that, 1 "ms" millisecond = 1000 "µs" microseconds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 probably a mobo where I could disable Spread Spectrum would make more difference, one step at a time


----------



## thoppa

10us is 100kHz - that's good enough for audio although ideally I'd like 3us or less and in a perfect world I'd like the psu to respond faster than any of the op amps/amps etc in the circuit can. 

 This is no easy thing to do - to create a psu that can respond ultra fast and not create noise/distortion/etc. This is why shunt regulators and gel batteries are so highly regarded for audio, and, to be blunt, smps is not well thought of. 

 My own experience with the Essence ST and the class-T amps I have have shown me that music comes to life with good power. 

 I don't think changing how the bandwidth of signals on the mobo are handled will make any appreciable difference to the audio - it's a bit like saying you'll hear the difference between lossless wma pro and aac+ I don't know anyone who can claim they can hear this, but again, there's no harm trying if you have the time and money to do the a-b testing etc. But then again, if you have the time and money, they might be better spent elsewhere for guaranteed good results.


----------



## leeperry

yes indeed, smps is frowned upon...but my soundcard doesn't have an external molex plug anyway.

 I've found another link where they measured the ripple of several PSU's: AnandTech: 300W to 450W: 20 Power Supplies on the Test Bench

 they give much higher figures than on that french site...yet the Corsair CX400 is still lower than the rest.

 I indeed also have a t-amp and it does sound better on a stabilized PSU than on the wallwart.

 I've found that adding ferrites on my PC power cable also seemed to help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, "spread spectrum" is known to mess w/ audio stuff..


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I read the test conclusion = 100mV on a 12V line. The quiescent noise on my homemade psu is about 0.5mV and when this has got onto the Asus Essence ST and through the regulators there, the peak noise at full load with Rhanna was 3mV on the -12V onboard rail, which was the worst I got. What is 20 x log30 ? It's a lot of decibels ! (Over 30dB quieter...)

 I guess Essence owners are lucky to have the opportunity to give their cards good juice - a major advantage of the card I think. The next best thing is, I guess, to filter the power with ferrite beads. What are you using ? maybe you can add your own regulation circuit too ?

 I don't see how a spread spectrum would mess up anything. It's a technology designed deliberately not to mess anything up and yet reduce EMI. Do you have more info ?

 Cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

You could also build a seperate module for filtering to put between the molex on the card. More filters and regulators. It may be a good idea or it may be overkill in this circuit position.
 I agree with you that soundcards with a molex input is a very good idea. While some frown on the PC PSU being used in anyway, I would rather it used straight tap to the card.
 With other cards they take the power form the slot where the power has run through all the tracings on the board etc...Giving it much more oppurtunity to get dirty form EMI/RFI..etc. I wonder if you measures the pins on the slot if they would be dirtier as compred to stright from the molex end.


----------



## awesom-o

Hi all!

 I made a PSU for my STX a while ago, based on the design fzman posted in the original STX thread. Haven't used it in a while tho, because I havent had time to put in in a box yet. And because the 5V regulator got very, very hot for some reason, even with a big cooler on it. It would probably have fried during the hot days of summer.. 

 The change in sound i remember most with the PSU, was a radical change in SS. I use the line outs, hooked up to amp and speakers. With the computer PSU the sound seemed to originate from approx 50cm behind the speakers. With the new, linear PSU, the sound jumped forwards, and seemed to originate 50cm in front of my speakers. It was impossible not to notice. 

 One of these days I will finish it and put all the parts in an old computer PSU case I have. Will post some pics and further impressions then.


----------



## thoppa

What transformer did you use for the 5v line ? If it was more than 7v then you are asking your reg to dissipate a lot of power. If it was almost too hot to touch that is about 60 degrees. Hot and feels like it will burn in time is about 50 degrees. Warm is about 40. Also, how much capacitance did you use before the reg and on the adjust pin ? The pre-reg caps will lower ripple and reduce the work of the regulator and the cap on the adjust pin will reduce the output ripple. 

 I'm using a 7v trans, 4700uF pre-reg cap, a 50uF adjust cap, and a 220uF output cap, and a LM317A reg with a 10c/w heatsink, and this runs at less than 50 degrees IIRC.


----------



## thoppa

I've been using a PCI riser with 15cm extension cable to get the card out of the case when I wanted to get the scope onto it. It just occurred to me that maybe the way to put better power into a PCI card would be to use one of these risers and modify it to inject better power - is this possible ? Which pins on the PCI bus are power only ?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could also build a seperate module for filtering to put between the molex on the card. More filters and regulators. It may be a good idea or it may be overkill in this circuit position.
 I agree with you that soundcards with a molex input is a very good idea. While some frown on the PC PSU being used in anyway, I would rather it used straight tap to the card.
 With other cards they take the power form the slot where the power has run through all the tracings on the board etc...Giving it much more oppurtunity to get dirty form EMI/RFI..etc. I wonder if you measures the pins on the slot if they would be dirtier as compred to stright from the molex end._


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes that would be possible, Actually a really good idea also as you could modify the slot instead of the card for others that have cards with slot powered amp section. Let me look through my spec sheets and see if I can find the pin outs for the PCI slot. On teh ST, only the logic comes from the slot..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is one, no that good but should help: PCI Bus Pin Out and Pinout Signal Names
 I will see if I can find better information for you.


----------



## ROBSCIX

This is a bit better, look here: PCI bus pinout and wiring @ pinouts.ru

 This has exactly what you need to work with and layout the power pins.
 As you said, if you were using a rise card you could remove the power connections so they don't just pass thorough from the slot. Once that is done you could wire cleaner power to the power pins on the riser card. Essentially bypassing the PSU from the PC altogether.
 I think this is a great idea and should be of interest to people whose cards are fully powered by the bus as it could also be done with PCI-E also.


----------



## thoppa

Here's a photo of the cable riser. It costs about US$20.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, I have seen them before, they are good for amnay things. I was considering using somthing like this to just make a card external. You can only make them so long I think before they start having issues with the signals. That would be easy to work with as you have plenty of places the tap the signal you need and cut the ones you need to bypass.
 The way it was explained to me, is the only power taken form the bus is just standard logic signals e.g Datam adressing etc. The actual amplifier section are power through the molex connector.


----------



## thoppa

I don't need to do this cos my ST psu is doing very well, but if anyone wants to give it a go and needs a riser cable, let me know, because I don't need this anymore. 

 I've ended up using opa2134 in the I/V. They lacked space before but with the better PSU and XO, they are fine feeding both the AD8620 buffer and the TPA6120 amp for HD650.


----------



## leeperry

hahaha, hacking the 3.3/5V/12V pins through a riser...wickkkiiid!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm using some ferrite beads from Chomerics, I'll try to look up the filtering freqs...they are meant to clean power cables I think, and so far they seem to do the job quite nicely...but it's always hard to ignore placebo as you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, Spread Spectrum is no good! it constantly kills the spikes of the motherboard oscillator.

 this PDF from the cplay author advises to disable it: http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v0...rts%20v0.3.pdf

 and any serious link on google does too: spread spectrum motherboard bios audio - Google Search

 you really don't want to constantly kill spikes...I whined to Gigabyte to get a BIOS where I could disable it, they gave it to me custom made...as they don't allow to disable it on any of their mobos(company's policy), but they goofed up w/ the PLL coeffs so I wasn't able to o/c anymore. I think the good days of Gigabyte are long gone, their new BIOS coders don't know jack


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't need to do this cos my ST psu is doing very well, but if anyone wants to give it a go and needs a riser cable, let me know, because I don't need this anymore. 

 I've ended up using opa2134 in the I/V. They lacked space before but with the better PSU and XO, they are fine feeding both the AD8620 buffer and the TPA6120 amp for HD650._

 

For the ST or STX, HDAV 1.3 or other cards that have seperate molex for input this modification would be uneeded. Only logic is taken from the board for these cards. For those cards which take their power from the PCI slot this modification could yeild some excellent results.
 You like the OPA2134s over the AD8599's for I/V?


----------



## leeperry

The Complete Guide to Spread Spectrum

spread spectrum clocking? - Overclock.net - Overclocking.net

 and for ppl using soundcards lacking a molex plug, some mobos carry killer designs w/ very low ripple: ASUSTeK Computer Inc.

 you can disable 2 types of SS on this mobo(I'm getting it from a friend at the end of this week): 






 too bad the drivers suck so bad on the Essence soundcards....their PCB design is simply very very good...OTOH I also didn't like the Nichicon caps ^^


----------



## awesom-o

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What transformer did you use for the 5v line ? If it was more than 7v then you are asking your reg to dissipate a lot of power. If it was almost too hot to touch that is about 60 degrees. Hot and feels like it will burn in time is about 50 degrees. Warm is about 40. Also, how much capacitance did you use before the reg and on the adjust pin ? The pre-reg caps will lower ripple and reduce the work of the regulator and the cap on the adjust pin will reduce the output ripple. 

 I'm using a 7v trans, 4700uF pre-reg cap, a 50uF adjust cap, and a 220uF output cap, and a LM317A reg with a 10c/w heatsink, and this runs at less than 50 degrees IIRC._

 

I used this design: http://johnswenson1.home.comcast.net...tereo/PCPS.gif

 Used the values depicted, only difference is I use 2 regulators in mine, for 5v and 12v. To get 5v, I run the regulated 12v line through the 5v regulator, so it's bound to be a lot of heat. I'm using LD1085v's, fixed one for 5v, adjustable for 12v. I will just put in a bigger cooler tho, and I think it will be fine. Stole one from a graphics card that will do nicely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edit: oh, and the transformer is 16V


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Nice design if space and cost aren't issues. The 10,000uF smoothing cap is overkill IMO. There's a similar thing here :




 However, most people kill RF and diode switching noise by using 0.1uF multilayer ceramic caps across each diode. 




 You can kill common mode noise by using one isolating transformer before your voltage transformers. 
diyparadise - Build a Cleaner Power Supply

 As you know, you have a large voltage drop across your regulators - but it is too much to just heatsink away because you're going to need very large heatsinks for that and they won't be cheap. You should really look at getting more suitable transformers; it's probably a cheaper solution and more efficient. 0-7V is best for the 5V line and 0-12V for the 12V. Both of these will give just enough voltage to allow for a 0.7V drop across the (schottky) diodes, 2.5V drop over the reg, and 2v for the ripple across the smoothing cap. How stable is your mains voltage ? Mine is better than 1% stable but it is quite noisy. I want to get an isolating trans for my PC but I'll need 400VA and that is hard to find.

 Check out this online PSU calculator to work out what size heatsinks you'll need :

Power Supply Parameter Estimator


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For the ST or STX, HDAV 1.3 or other cards that have seperate molex for input this modification would be uneeded. Only logic is taken from the board for these cards. For those cards which take their power from the PCI slot this modification could yeild some excellent results.
 You like the OPA2134s over the AD8599's for I/V?_

 

Yeah, the OPA2134 seems to blend well with everything else that's going on. Before the mods, they put the vocals right into my head and it was too tight, but now with the better XO and power, the vocals have moved away and the soundstage is really natural - just like the AD8599 were before the mods but not quite as wide. I've also got some OPA2107 and 2132 to try - gotta love free samples eh ?

 I hope someone tries this cable riser mod ! I'll send my cable to anyone who will for a very good price....


----------



## thoppa

Interesting reading. To be honest, it seems like a 'must do everything possible'; analaudiophilia is a dangerous disease.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It would tell me to strip my computer down into its parts, mount all of them independently on cement/rubber/wood plinths, isolate them in helmhotz cages and float the whole thing on a bed of air. 

 I did a year of Physics at Lancaster Uni, including time in a cryogenics lab. That was built underground, in a room within a room. And in the middle of that room was the probe and helium4 source and computer, all fully screened, and that little 'room' was floated on air. By going 100% to eliminate all forms of energy they were able to get to something like 1/10,000 of a degree above absolute zero. Why ? I never did work that out. I guess it's just to see if they could.

 It's completely off-topic but I've been looking at camera megapixels, photosite density and size, nyquist frequencies etc and come to the conclusion that most compact cameras with 12 megapixel sensors are, in theory, just marketing. The sensor is generally little fingernail size so it really shouldn't go above about 10 megapixels because any more than that is simply lost - a bit like any frequencies above 22Khz are 'lost' on CD. 

 I wonder at what point are changes simply 'lost' ? I'm just trying to keep my sanity here....

 So filter beads - yes please. Mobo 'tweaks'...hmmm... but maybe I should think about changing the XO on my mobo.... ?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hahaha, hacking the 3.3/5V/12V pins through a riser...wickkkiiid!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm using some ferrite beads from Chomerics, I'll try to look up the filtering freqs...they are meant to clean power cables I think, and so far they seem to do the job quite nicely...but it's always hard to ignore placebo as you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, Spread Spectrum is no good! it constantly kills the spikes of the motherboard oscillator.

 this PDF from the cplay author advises to disable it: http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v0...rts%20v0.3.pdf

 and any serious link on google does too: spread spectrum motherboard bios audio - Google Search

 you really don't want to constantly kill spikes...I whined to Gigabyte to get a BIOS where I could disable it, they gave it to me custom made...as they don't allow to disable it on any of their mobos(company's policy), but they goofed up w/ the PLL coeffs so I wasn't able to o/c anymore. I think the good days of Gigabyte are long gone, their new BIOS coders don't know jack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## leeperry

I like his extreme approach to HTPC. I've followed most of his "realistic" advices, like killing as many residents apps as you can, run them in low priority on single cores(and run your media player in high priority on 4 cores)...increase the windows timer granularity and MT threads quantum. I've also messed w/ the NT core priority % so high priority would have a 64x higher priority than low. my system is definitely snappier, and that's why I hate TSR's(the Xonar drivers carry 3 of them, no good to me).

 as you can see, that Asus mobo I'm getting soon carries very low ripple/crosstalk. this gotta be good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sure, go ahead! change the crystal of your graphic card and mobo! but kill SS as well. I'd love to change the graphic card PLL tbh, coz the stock ones suck in Reclock...way way way too jittery! I'm not quite getting 48.0000~Hz...I'm more getting something between 47.999~ and 48.001~, luckily Reclock takes care of that!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting reading. To be honest, it seems like a 'must do everything possible'; analaudiophilia is a dangerous disease.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It would tell me to strip my computer down into its parts, mount all of them independently on cement/rubber/wood plinths, isolate them in helmhotz cages and float the whole thing on a bed of air. 

 I did a year of Physics at Lancaster Uni, including time in a cryogenics lab. That was built underground, in a room within a room. And in the middle of that room was the probe and helium4 source and computer, all fully screened, and that little 'room' was floated on air. By going 100% to eliminate all forms of energy they were able to get to something like 1/10,000 of a degree above absolute zero. Why ? I never did work that out. I guess it's just to see if they could.

 It's completely off-topic but I've been looking at camera megapixels, photosite density and size, nyquist frequencies etc and come to the conclusion that most compact cameras with 12 megapixel sensors are, in theory, just marketing. The sensor is generally little fingernail size so it really shouldn't go above about 10 megapixels because any more than that is simply lost - a bit like any frequencies above 22Khz are 'lost' on CD. 

 I wonder at what point are changes simply 'lost' ? I'm just trying to keep my sanity here....

 So filter beads - yes please. Mobo 'tweaks'...hmmm... but maybe I should think about changing the XO on my mobo.... ?_

 

There is a fine line between modifications that make sense and just crazy stuff. You have to make up your mind which is which.


----------



## leeperry

god****...when, where and how will that audio odyssey ever stop?

 I've ditched my BeQuiet 500W to install the Corsair 400W...that yields the lowest ripple results in all the tests I've seen so far, even lower than the Corsair 620W(that carries a solid cap on its 12V rail).

 well, where do I start? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I loved the OPA2132P as buffer, but sound was -I dunno, hard to explain- harsh and not totally right...like screaming a bit in the trebles, sorta distorted....and now it just seems to sound WAY clearer and cleaner 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 SS seems to have improved as well! my next upgrade is swapping my cheapo GA-P31-DS3L for the P5K Premium, which is said to have a killer PCB w/ very low crosstalk.

 anyway, this Corsair 400W looks killer in technical tests, and man is it audible!


----------



## leeperry

it's funny how the Corsair 400W completely fails in that german test: Google Traduction

 but well, they didn't measure ripple...which is what mattters the most to us 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and their top PSU costs twice more than the Corsair for only 425W, and the second best is fanless and costs 4 times more.

 I think it's like graphic cards tests that only aim at 3D games testing, and completely overlook HTPC use(PLL jitter, sharpness, HDMI features, IVTC, RGB conversion)..


----------



## sonci

Do you really noticed the difference SQ between 2 atx PSU, 
 What headphones do you use?
 Thats crazy man, considering you have the same motherboard, which will add its riple anyway, and considering both of PSU are good,

 Thats, just placebo,
 Would you noticed the same difference if you see a bad review of the Corsair psu?


----------



## leeperry

well I've seen bad reviews of the corsair...and I still think that it sounds a heck better than the BeQuiet 500W(that doesn't have a very good build quality, they even soldered onto the female power plug directly...in quality PSU's they solder on a separate PCB).

 I use a cd1k(same drivers as cd3k), and yes the power supply ripple does matter...I will swap the mobo on monday, I hope it'll improve even further.

 you can disable 2 types of Spread Spectrum on the P5K Premium(PCI-E and CPU) and it's got a very low crosstalk PCB 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about the audible diff? the SS is clearer, each instrument is more clearly defined...it's less muddy, the headstage is wider too, and the trebles are less distorted....makes me crave for a killer stabilized PSU like thoppa's!


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well I've seen bad reviews of the corsair...and I still think that it sounds a heck better than the BeQuiet 500W(that doesn't have a very good build quality, they even soldered onto the female power plug directly...in quality PSU's they solder on a separate PCB).

 I use a cd1k(same drivers as cd3k), and yes the power supply ripple does matter...I will swap the mobo on monday, I hope it'll improve even further.

 you can disable 2 types of Spread Spectrum on the P5K Premium(PCI-E and CPU) and it's got a very low crosstalk PCB 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about the audible diff? the SS is clearer, each instrument is more clearly defined...it's less muddy, the headstage is wider too, and the trebles are less distorted....makes me crave for a killer stabilized PSU like thoppa's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How much did you spend in total,
 Why dont you sell everything and get a Lavry DAC?.

 The spread spectrum should be enabled or disabled for better audio?


----------



## leeperry

after I sell my old parts, the psu/mobo upgrade will have cost me something along the lines of $30 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 SS should be disabled, it's making the PCI-E and CPU PLL over-oscillate on purpose..the last thing you want.

 I've posted links about SS in the previous pages


----------



## ROBSCIX

The trouble with cards that pull their power from the slots is the power running through all the tracings on the board. Getting dirtier and dirtier from EMI/RFI.
 You PSU can be clean but by the time it reaches the card I would say it would be much more messy and more dirty with interference.

 Thoppa and I talked about using a riser card and modifying it to allow you to input cleaner power from a outside source. I have also been talking with a few that desigg circuits that fit over the cards and allow the power for the opamps amplification to come from a outside source. Both are excellent ideas for cards that draw their power right form the board.
 The card itself can draw logic from teh board that is not what interests us. Where the problem would be is the cards getting these dirtier power signals from the slot and using them for driving the amplifications sections.

 I am working on a few projects that will help guys get around this trouble with their cards. With slight or no modificaiton to the original card.


----------



## leeperry

you can also read Skylab's impressions on this DAC: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/re...01-psu-391485/

 he said that a killer PSU improved the SQ a great deal...it's prolly stabilized w/ uber-low ripple.

 the lower the ripple, the clearer the sound(less crap from the PSU to color the sound)...if my HD2 had an external molex, I would prolly go external stabilized PSU...sadly, I think only the Asus soundcards have that...and they are really not to my taste


----------



## awesom-o

edit: never mind, unnecessary comment..


----------



## leeperry

well, I always like to do/undo mods...the BeQuiet 500W sounds terrible compared to the Corsair 400W....a bit like a Realtek onboard to give you an idea of the difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the SS is narrower, the trebles are mushy, the bass is dull...the PSU is clearly not a component to be underestimated! next upgrade = Audio-GD Earth on the final buffer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I've just installed the P5K Premium, it's good stuff so far(it uses a 8 pins EATX connector, better for ground shielding I think)...if it wasn't for the fixed sample rate drivers(and inexistent updates), I'd make me wanna try the STX again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I love how each upgrade makes the former config totally unbearable...upgraditis is a nasty sickness.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't need to do this cos my ST psu is doing very well, but if anyone wants to give it a go and needs a riser cable, let me know, because I don't need this anymore._

 

a more elegant solution for ppl running PCI soundcards is this: PCI-E express 1X to PCI riser 32bits card adapter - eBay (item 220442793840 end time Nov-23-09 05:54:07 PST)

 I'll prolly grab one


----------



## ROBSCIX

Actually, what thoppa and I were discussing was rather close to the unit you linked to. Except we never talked about the slot conversion.
 This would be quite handy for people with newer mobos and PCI sound cards. I would link an external supply to that molex input though.

 Using the riser would still give you cleaner pwer even if you did use the internal PSU as the power isn't running through all the tracings on the board before getting to the card itself.

 OTOH, You would need low profile cards to use just this and a soundcard in a normal chassis. This is only part of a solution.


----------



## leeperry

here's a better pic...just need to make sure that the PCI card will be fed by the molex, meaning any PCI soundcard could have its external stabilized PSU


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, but you cannot use just this and a full height soundcard in a normal case.
 You do not have enough clearance.

 This is not a solution in itself, you need to consider the clearance issue unless your soundcard is lowprofile.
 Which most are not.


----------



## leeperry

some are using the same bridge as the STX, not sure that's a good thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




PCI To PCI-E PCI-Express Riser Card Adapter 4P 20-1313 - eBay (item 110449053844 end time Nov-21-09 21:40:45 PST)
  Quote:


 Chip: PLX PEX8112-AA66BI 
 

from the molex/PCI connector alignment it seems rather clear that it's feeding the PCI card directly: http://i.mydashop.info/da_shop/20-1313-1B.jpg

PCI Express to PCI Adapter Card - StarTech.com
  Quote:


 the adapter card converts PCIe to PCI or PCI-X; a built-on LP4 power connector links the card to the computer power supply, allowing you to install universal voltage PCI cards (3.3V/5V). 
 

 Quote:


 General Specifications: PCI Express 3.3V Bus power 
 

PCI-E 1x can't provide 5V, so the adapter must get it directly from the PSU: http://pinouts.ru/Slots/pci_express_pinout.shtml


----------



## audionewbieyao

MyAVµøÅ¥°Ó±¡ºô - ¤µ©]¡A·f¸üXONAR HDAV 1.3 Deluxe HDMI 1.3 *µ®Ä¥dªºHTPCÂI«G§Úªº

 One of my friend just forwarded me with this link, man~ I have to say it looks very DIY, and somewhat like a handmade bomb, but it's very cool indeed.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Nice pictures. AMB labs has an easy to build linear regulated PSU named q25, I am not trying to make an ad but I think it would be nice to test it on STX. Has someone tried something like that?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Looks like a crazy external PSU!


----------



## glingrem

Hi, everybody!
 I have better idea for internal card PSU modification. ST/STX has an empty space for -12V stab (pos No. U34). It can be 7912.
 You need to delete L1 and increase U25 out voltage up to -15V only.




 It's adjusts by R1/R2 resistor divider. You need to change R2 from 92 kOhm to 120 kOhm. 




 Voltage in control point (rounded at pic.2) will increase up to -15.6V.
 This modification gives a more clear sound. Bass is more quick. The second harmonic level in distortion is down by few dB and will be equal to third harmonic level.
 P.S. English isn't my native language and I'm sorry for possible mistakes


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glingrem* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, everybody!
 I have better idea for internal card PSU modification. ST/STX has an empty space for -12V stab (pos No. U34). It can be 7912.
 You need to delete L1 and increase U25 out voltage up to -15V only.




 It's adjusts by R1/R2 resistor divider. You need to change R2 from 92 kOhm to 120 kOhm. 




 Voltage in control point (rounded at pic.2) will increase up to -15.6V.
 This modification gives a more clear sound. Bass is more quick. The second harmonic level in distortion is down by few dB and will be equal to third harmonic level.
 P.S. English isn't my native language and I'm sorry for possible mistakes_

 

Excellent info ! Thank you very much ! It's really the negative rail that needs improving so well done !!


----------



## thoppa

Hey glingrem,

 Have you tried cutting the legs on the 7912 and using ferrite beads in series ? Should lower the switching noise from U25 ? 

 Also, what was the voltage before the resistor swap ? And what other resistor value (R1) is creating the gain ?

 Thanks again for the post - really useful !


----------



## zimmzio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glingrem* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, everybody!
 I have better idea for internal card PSU modification. ST/STX has an empty space for -12V stab (pos No. U34). It can be 7912.
 You need to delete L1 and increase U25 out voltage up to -15V only.




 It's adjusts by R1/R2 resistor divider. You need to change R2 from 92 kOhm to 120 kOhm. 




 Voltage in control point (rounded at pic.2) will increase up to -15.6V.
 This modification gives a more clear sound. Bass is more quick. The second harmonic level in distortion is down by few dB and will be equal to third harmonic level.
 P.S. English isn't my native language and I'm sorry for possible mistakes_

 

Nice! Thanks for sharing glingrem! Looks promising!


----------



## glingrem

Hi!
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Have you tried cutting the legs on the 7912 and using ferrite beads in series ? Should lower the switching noise from U25 ?_

 

I had not. I used the one that was under my arm. But TI products uA7912C in KTE package. This will be better.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, what was the voltage before the resistor swap ? And what other resistor value (R1) is creating the gain ?_

 

The voltage in -V was about -12.6V before resistor swap.
 R1 value is 10 kOhm. You can use pair 1 kOhm/12 kOhm too.


----------



## thoppa

Thanks for the reply. It seems it is multiplying a reference voltage of 1.235V, so I'll order a 7912 to fit and give it a go - thanks again ! Great stuff !
http://hk.farnell.com/on-semiconduct...tor/dp/1703378


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## fotios

Especially to *Leeperry* who asked me to register in this forum. Well Leeperry, here i am!
 Fotios


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## fotios

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glingrem* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, everybody!
 I have better idea for internal card PSU modification. ST/STX has an empty space for -12V stab (pos No. U34). It can be 7912.
 You need to delete L1 and increase U25 out voltage up to -15V only.




 It's adjusts by R1/R2 resistor divider. You need to change R2 from 92 kOhm to 120 kOhm. 




 Voltage in control point (rounded at pic.2) will increase up to -15.6V.
 This modification gives a more clear sound. Bass is more quick. The second harmonic level in distortion is down by few dB and will be equal to third harmonic level.
 P.S. English isn't my native language and I'm sorry for possible mistakes_

 

Hi glingrem
 May i ask you something? After this modification, are you running the operational amplifiers of your sound card with +12V/-15V supply rails?
 Thanks.

 Fotios


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## glingrem

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fotios* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ After this modification, are you running the operational amplifiers of your sound card with +12V/-15V supply rails?_

 

Hi, Fotios.
 It isn't possible in any case, because an -12V voltage regulator is installs in place of L1. -15.6V will be present on input of the voltage regulator, but -12V on output and on negative rail.


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## fotios

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glingrem* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, Fotios.
 It isn't possible in any case, because an -12V voltage regulator is installs in place of L1. -15.6V will be present on input of the voltage regulator, but -12V on output and on negative rail._

 

Yes, you are right. I was confused from the description. Thanks for the reply.

 Fotios


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## thoppa

Hello Fotios ! I remember you from the Asus forum. It's great to have you here esp as you are a very nice guy and very knowledgeable too.


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## Alexander01

Can I use this linear PSU (60 euro) with the Xonar ST/STX?

 Using a molex cable from an old power supply, connecting the cable-ends to the lab-psu and the other cable-end (with the molex connector) to the STX. Then set the lab-psu to 12v and max current (3A).

 Is this possible or will i blow the card? And how much sound improvement should i expect comparing to a modern ATX PSU? The ripple on the lab-psu is only 1mv.


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## thoppa

Hi,

 Yes, it'll work but you'll need one to supply 12V and then another power supply for the 5v line. Lots of $$$ for not much improvement.

 Tbh, the onboard regs are going to limit the quality of juice that gets to the chips, especially because there is a buck/boost/invert circuit which is noisy. So pro supplies like this are overkill. You won't blow the card and you won't hear any major transformation - the xo and op amps are the best things to change to hear a very obvious improvement.

 You should really look at something simpler using two LM317A or a very good pair of 7812 and 7805 regulators. Here's an example of an excellent 7812 with very good specs - better than the ones that are used on the soundcard itself :

STMICROELECTRONICS|L7812ABV|V REG +12V, 7812, TO-220-3 | Farnell Hong Kong

 You could very easily make your own using this :

The &sigma;25 Regulated Power Supply

 And many electronics suppliers have pre-built kits. There are lots here in Hong Kong. 

GT*Mini Voltage Regulator (5V, 5A) - WECL Online

 It was posted above that it is worth modifying the card with a 7912 regulator to improve the noise on the -12V on board rail. So bear in mind that however good the power you feed this card, that -12v line with no regulator after the boost/invert is gonna stay noisy - far noisier than any decent atx supply - dc-dc converters typically have 30mV noise.


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## leeperry

I didn't dare saying it, but indeed an external PSU won't cure digitis....look into some better opamps first, make baby steps


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## Blackbird09

I am trying to put together a custom PSU for this purpose. I've done some DIY work before, but never messed around with power supplies. I have read a lot on the subject (here, here and here). I can design PCB boards so once this is done I'll release the eaglecad files to whoever wants it.

 Question:
 If I used one transformer that outputs 14v 1.8A in series (x2 outputs), could I take one output and put a regulator to run that down to 12v and take the other output with another regulator to run it down to 5v without messing up anything?


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## Alexander01

Thanks for the reply. So this lab-psu is useless because the STX boardcircuit adds alot noise anyway. Sadly, I don't have any experience with modifying electronic stuff.

 What about this Antec Earthwatts? It has 3.0mv on the 12v and 5v line. Do you think there will be any noteable difference in sound quality (with the Stock ST/STX) if you compare it to that lab-psu?

 I'm looking for an ATX PC powersupply that is ubersilent but also has ripple values like that Earthwatts. It's very hard to find this combination. Corsair CX400 has nice values but it's fan is way too loud for me. I'm searching for something that is as silent like a Nexus Value 430 with the Efficiency of a PicoPSU at low loads and the Ripple of a Lab-PSU. I would pay the price of a Seasonic X-750 if some manufacturer can get me such a high quality PC power supply.


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## Blackbird09

I am trying to put together a custom PSU for this purpose. I've done some DIY work before, but never messed around with power supplies. I have read a lot on the subject (here, here and here). I can design PCB boards so once this is done I'll release the eaglecad files to whoever wants it.

 Question:
 If I used one transformer that outputs 14v 1.8A in series (x2 outputs), could I take one output and put a regulator to run that down to 12v and take the other output with another regulator to run it down to 5v without messing up anything?


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## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the reply. So this lab-psu is useless because the STX boardcircuit adds alot noise anyway. Sadly, I don't have any experience with modifying electronic stuff.

 What about this Antec Earthwatts? It has 3.0mv on the 12v and 5v line. Do you think there will be any noteable difference in sound quality (with the Stock ST/STX) if you compare it to that lab-psu?

 I'm looking for an ATX PC powersupply that is ubersilent but also has ripple values like that Earthwatts. It's very hard to find this combination. Corsair CX400 has nice values but it's fan is way too loud for me. I'm searching for something that is as silent like a Nexus Value 430 with the Efficiency of a PicoPSU at low loads and the Ripple of a Lab-PSU. I would pay the price of a Seasonic X-750 if some manufacturer can get me such a high quality PC power supply._

 

A linear supply will have less high frequency noise than an smps ATX psu. Regulators are pretty good for noise control up to about 100Khz so a linear supply will outperform an smps one because the regualtors will do very well at killing the linear supply's noise. 

 An smps ATX supply has more noise and much more noise at high frequencies, which regulators can't kill. 

 So, if you can, use a simple linear psu - it will be better than atx. If you can't, then I'd personally choose a Corsair.


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## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A linear supply will have less high frequency noise than an smps ATX psu. Regulators are pretty good for noise control up to about 100Khz so a linear supply will outperform an smps one because the regualtors will do very well at killing the linear supply's noise. 

 An smps ATX supply has more noise and much more noise at high frequencies, which regulators can't kill. 

 So, if you can, use a simple linear psu - it will be better than atx. If you can't, then I'd personally choose a Corsair._

 

Hmm, that explains why I always feel the treble sounded muffled on all soundcards with my Corsair HX620W. The HX620W has 9mv ripple @ 150watt according to SPCR, but I need to use an equalizer to get a detailed airy treble sound with every card (X-Fi, Xonar, Realtek). I also noticed this on PC's with other brand power supplies like Enermax. The high end always lacked detail, openness and air. I guess I really need a linear PS or use SPDIF with an external DAC/AMP.


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## leeperry

I don't think it'd make the trebles muffled...that's what crappy opamps do. It'd make them spikey, edgy and agressive.


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## thoppa

I have to say that the ST's design, although very very good, has problems and the main one is the horribly jittery xo. Far and away the best way to remove the mush and muffle is to get that replaced. But that requires 'surgery'. Cleaner power can improve things (read the cs8416 datasheet) but not hugely. 

 That nasty xo is the main weakness of the ST/STX imo. Next up is the 7912 regulator mod. After that are the caps in the I/V feedback circuit - nasty high distortion ceramics - which need to be replaced with metallised polypropylene or similar. After that, upgrading or removing the output coupling caps on the line out. 

 When these have been done, or not, then I think it's best to turn to the power. Finally, start rolling op amps to colour the sound to your preference. I'd start with LM4562 (most neutral imo), AD8620 (most dynamic) and LME49720HA (biggest soundstage).

 I hope this helps you see that the last two steps won't significantly 'improve' the sound but should help you get a sound you like.

 Just imo.....enjoy the music !


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## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think it'd make the trebles muffled...that's what crappy opamps do. It'd make them spikey, edgy and agressive._

 

I found that changing the caps in the I/V feedback removed a lot of that edginess. I don't think it's the op amps fault really - I think they are being crippled by the poor choice of caps they work with. Asus put plastic caps in the buffer, so why not in the I/V ? It makes no sense to me. Cost cutting ? Board layout redesign ? It's a damn shame for sure.

 The 7912 cost less than US$1, the caps were US$4, the xo could be replaced with something like this, which, according to the datsheet, has less than 1ps noise :

http://www.euroquartz.co.uk/oscillat...ProductID=2821

 With bulk discounts, this would have cost Asus less than US$10 and added less than US$20 to the retail price, and it would have sounded so much better and might even have earned its 'audiophile' tag for real.


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## thoppa

Hey Glingrem,

 I finally got around to doing this mod. The R2 on my board was 88K. I replaced it with 120K and I'm getting -15.65V before regulation which is more than enough.






 However, a good 7912 is hard to find. Most seem to have 70uV of noise and only 60dB of ripple rejection. The case size is a dpak-3 I think and I think 500mA will be enough. So far, the only one I have found is this :

ON Semiconductor | Semiconductors | Power Supply and Control | Linear Regulators | Negative Voltage Regulators, On Semiconductor |MC79M12BDTG

 Do you or anyone else know a better component ? 

 Thanks anyway for posting this mod - even with an average 7912, it reduces noise on the -12V line by a factor of over 10 and vastly improves line and load regulation. Awesome !

 Tom

 EDIT : Given up looking - decided to use the d2pak I already have. It works fine - I get a total of 23.90V across pins 4 and 8 of the op amp sockets. I cut the legs a little so the top sits at the same height as the caps around it so it won't catch/touch on anything when I put the card into the pci slot. I made the rear leg from a resistor lead.


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## glingrem

Hi, Tom.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Glingrem,
 I finally got around to doing this mod._

 

Accept my congratulations! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, a good 7912 is hard to find. Most seem to have 70uV of noise and only 60dB of ripple rejection. The case size is a dpak-3 I think and I think 500mA will be enough. 
 Do you or anyone else know a better component ? ]_

 

I think, you got one of best 7912 on a market in D2-pack. Equivalents from TI, KEC, etc. has more noise voltage ( up to 200..300 uV) and few dB low RR.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cut the legs a little so the top sits at the same height as the caps around it so it won't catch/touch on anything when I put the card into the pci slot. I made the rear leg from a resistor lead. _

 

Why don't you soldered IC onto the solder pad on board?
 Vitaliy.


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## thoppa

Hi Vitaliy,

 I'm pleased it works ! Thanks.

 It is a shame that there doesn't seem to be any better 7912 regulators than this one. 

 Unfortunately, the d2pak is just a little too big to fit flat on the board because it completely covers the pad and solder pads and won't fir squarely in the space either. So there was no chance I could get it soldered on like that. The board space is dpak-3 size.

 Thanks again.


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## glingrem

Hi, everybody!
 Today I had make over myself a huge effort to spend
 time and carefully read through the entire topic. 
 I realized one simple thing: You all are walking the wrong way. 
 You spend hundreds of dollars on the Hi-End analog power supply to reduce its noise, but the main source of this noise is on the card itself. 
 This source at 14 page of discussion merely observed by *thoppa*. This are pulsed converters (U25 & U35) of +5V source voltage from molex connector to +/ -12V for power supply of opamps and headamp. The next step in the right direction would be a rejection of the use of these converters and power supply of the card through a molex connector. But neither of you did not this step. This requires a little more changes in the circuit of the card, but gives a much greater influence on the sound. The right analog power supply must contain stabilizers +12 and -12 volts to power supply of opamps and headamp and +5 volt power supply for analog circuit of DAC chip. In this case the set of onboard stabilizers on 78 ** also not used.
 That do you think about?


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## thoppa

Hi,

 I think U25 and U35 are before the regulators ? 7812 and 7805 and now 7912 too - so the regs will be reducing the noise they produce. 

 Of course, it would be better to build +/-12 and 5V supplies and feed these directly onto the board because it would reduce noise levels at high frequencies (above ~50Khz) which the onboard regs won't do so well with. 

 However, every mobo produces huge amounts of noise (mV not uV), so the earth is often really noisy, and there are very high levels of emi/rf from the processor, gpu etc. so there comes a point when there is very little more that can be done to improve the sound quality because of the PC environment.

 Of course, you could mount the card outside the PC but tbh, it's getting a bit crazy at that stage - it would be better just to use an external DAC with something like the usb asio Teralink X2.


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## thoppa

Spam invasion weekend eh.


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## shimm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far, the only one I have found is this :

ON Semiconductor | Semiconductors | Power Supply and Control | Linear Regulators | Negative Voltage Regulators, On Semiconductor |MC79M12BDTG

 Do you or anyone else know a better component ?_

 

That guy from russian forum who really did this 7912 mod found that L7912ACD2 is notacible better solution. You may (i hope) see pics here.
 They think that *ON* Semiconductor isn't acceptable at all.


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## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shimm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That guy from russian forum who really did this 7912 mod found that L7912ACD2 is notacible better solution. You may (i hope) see pics here.
 They think that *ON* Semiconductor isn't acceptable at all._

 

7912A is usually better than 7912B or C but for 7912 it is usually less than 10% better - typically 70uV noise instead of 75uV etc. So who makes the
 L7912ACD2 ? Is it Dpak3 or a similar size ? Where can I buy one ? Where can I see the datsheet ?
 If you are referring to the ST one, then it is only in d2pak and to220, and it has 100uV noise with similar line and load regulation, transient response, etc. It isn't better.


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## ROBSCIX

Cool mods.


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## glingrem

Hi, Tom.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think U25 and U35 are before the regulators ? 7812 and 7805 and now 7912 too - so the regs will be reducing the noise they produce.._

 


 Of course. But not all noise. You can hear a difference in sound between powering this card from onboard DC-DC convertors and from outside +/-12 and 5V supplies.
 One man from russian forum built it and it looks like good. And sounds like good too
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Regulators are placed on aluminum cover of card as a cooler.
 It connected to the board directly but molex not connected and DC-DC converters doesn't work. It not more expensive as +12/+5 outside supply but sounds better.
 Vitaliy.


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## gwillys

how about dexa & burson regulators? hope i'm not told i wasted money 
  improved imaging/clarity/definition.
   
  *burson regulator now powered by external psu - opa's @ 16v.
  scuse the mess - under construction


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## h4sy0u

Hello. Because I also have Essence i am interested in this.
  Might this work?
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/60W-Linear-Power-supply-T-AMP-TA2024-TA2020-DAC-/120576189139?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c12e6a2d3
  together with
http://www.steatite-embedded.co.uk/12v-dc-to-atx-converter-plugs-directly-into-atx-socket-120w-max.html


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## gwillys

i cant quite figure what your plan is. i dont think those two items would change things much.


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## spacejay

i have a few high quality power supplies knocking about that could be utilised in powering the essence. what exactly are the power requirements needed?


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## serenith

I have a question about filtering / smoothing a SMPS DC output. I have a computer PSU lying around and I was thinking I could join two rails together in series to get a +24V and +10V ouputs. Now, is there any way I could regulate / filter / smooth these DC ouputs down to a clean +12 and +5 ? I know close to nothing about building RC(L) circuits for that purpose so please bear with me.
   
  It seems it would be cheaper (for me) then buying / building a dedicated PSU. Also, since i'm not planning to get a soldering iron anywhere near my ST due to my lack of skill, i'm limited to op-amp and psu upgrades.


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## Psyside

Hello guys, and sorry to bump this old thread.
   
  I got no time neither im skilled/tech wise  to understand all of this stuff, i just bought mine Adam A3x speakers, and now im waiting my STX to arrive in 1 week or so, i just got into the high quallity audio stuff, and would like to know whats this power supply all about? do i need some special PSU in order to get most of the card?* or the users who post have medicroe/low end PSU's so they must find a workaround?*
   
  I own an Coller Master real power pro 1000W PSU, is this good enough? what should i chek for in order to tell if my PSU will offer good and clean power, thanks guys!


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## wungun

Is this thread dead??
  
 I have a Sjostom ultra high performace regulator board (+-12V) that i want to power externally from a +-18V AC/DC power supply to feed my STX...
 I want to tap into pin 3 of the 7812 (unsoldered 7812 of course) fpr the +12V and tap into U34 pin 3 for the -12V.
 Does removing "L1" disconnect the -12V circuit from U34 output section on the STX? In otherwords, does removing L1 kill the -12V supply to the card unless a 7912 is soldered in?
  
 Id also like to add +5V to the card from this regulator...Im thinking of feeding a 7808 with the +12V, then to a 7805 and tapping into the molex red wire (separate from the PC PSU of course.) Or is there a spot on the card where a 7805 already resides and i can feed it +8V directly to pin 1 after lifting it from the board?
  
 Im thinking this would be the ultimate power solution for the STX!
  
 Id likely also power a discrete clock with the same super regulator.
  
 Im a little unsure of correctly grounding everything however...I think it would be safe to ground the 18V power supply to the PC chassis, STX to the chassis and super regulator to the chassis...?


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## wungun

Bump....


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## Gradius

STX II is on the way, so is probably dead.


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## wungun

Where did you hear this..?


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## Gradius

wungun said:


> Where did you hear this..?


 

 From Asus.  Is no point to keep STX if STX II is coming out.


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## wungun

Even the STX2 will have weaknesses that will need addressing. ..
My STX now has regulated, 15V-+ external power to the analog side...











Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## hjam

fzman (or anybody else who has added a linear supply to their ST or STX card) - Is there any worries about when the external supply is powered up with respect to the PC? Can it do any damage if you don't follow a sequence? Any advice would be appreciated.
  
 hjam


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