# Gustard H20 headphone amp



## mtoc

No specs yet (I know this sounds silly, but when you have no way to listen to, the only the way that makes sense is the specs), might be a high power gear, btw, the design guy uses Liquid Gold for years, so H20 gotta be some LG sound-alike, just assuming.


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## TPSRA

The feedback in China is pretty good, some said it's comparable to Liquid Gold.


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## mtoc (Jul 15, 2017)

I'm gonna pull the trigger and eat the bullet if it's below $600. Haven't find any satified hp amp yet (nor DAC), audio industry is full of deep(ly) flaws, /flawed notions. /full of frost. It's far from perfect/satisfied. it has op amps in signal paths

looks good for orths though

I hate digtial vol and I hate crappy analog pots, but I usually use PC's vol due to lazyness, don't wanna move my fat ass during causal listening
it includes a remote (or maybe not, canceled i guess)
Relay vol also has all kinds of topology, but I'm too tired to ask them which kind they've used (they didn't choose the best option, I'm sure, budget talks/takes it all)
I have to make sure that the unit I receive will have the white omron relay as in the photos (these white stuff are not bad, but pretty good choice, the resistors could be modded but I'm gonna leave them alone)
at least the output z is pretty low 0.x ohm level
and high power


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## TPSRA (Nov 8, 2018)

mtoc said:


> I'm gonna pull the trigger and eat the bullet if it's below $600. Haven't find any satified hp amp yet (nor DAC), audio industry is full of deep(ly) flaws, /flawed notions. /full of frost. It's far from perfect/satisfied. it has op amps in signal paths
> 
> looks good for orths though
> 
> ...


Ouch, msrp in China is 5380 rmb with is around 800 usd


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## mandrake50

I see it listed for $1300.00
A bit steeper than that $600.00 that was mentioned as acceptable, but the specs do look good.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUS...19029768.html?spm=2114.search0304.4.50.KMRinQ
It would be nice if I could find some reviews. Maybe Massdrop will get it for around $800.


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## mandrake50

mtoc said:


> No specs yet (I know this sounds silly, but when you have no way to listen to, the only the way that makes sense is the specs), might be a high power gear, btw, the design guy uses Liquid Gold for years, so H20 gotta be some LG sound-alike, just assuming.



From Aliexpress:

Gordon GUSTARD H20 amp; pre-class full-balanced class A headphone amplifier;
Song Shide H20 technical characteristics:

• The post-stage amplifier circuit uses its own application for many years to separate the sub-line, each channel 2 pairs of power tube, a total of 8 pairs of power tube;

• Each channel uses two independent amplifying units to form a symmetrical output line, which outputs both single-ended and balanced;

• The front class consists of a separate 4-way amplifier circuit, using two LM49720 dual op amp;

• Have a separate pre-stage output, can be connected to active speakers or pure after the class;

• The use of matrix relay volume, effective to ensure that 4-way volume unanimous;

• Native full-balanced architecture, from input to volume control to before and after zoom, without any conversion, complete four-way architecture;
• Equipped with third gear gain (high middle low), amp and line (XLR) at the same time;

• There are three inputs: RCA * 1, XLR * 2 \
• The left and right channels each adopt a custom 50W audio ring transformer, completely independent of each other without interference;

• All aluminum chassis, full silver and all black colors available;

• Machine size: width 330 * deep 260 * high 65MM (without protruding parts);

• Packaging size: length 420 * wide 360 * high 175MM;

• Package weight: 6.5KG;

• International voltage AC100V-240V (manual adjustment);

• XLR interface definition: US standard (1, 2 hot, 3 cold).

H20 Parameters:

• Analog input:
RCA standard input group, input sensitivity typical value: 2Vrms; input impedance 47kΩ
XLR balanced input two groups, input sensitivity typical: 6Vrms; input impedance 2.4kΩ

• Front analog output (XLR):
Output impedance 200Ω
Frequency response: 20-80kHz /-0.1dB
Signal to noise ratio:> 122dB
Channel crosstalk: -130dB @ 1kHz
THD + N: <0.0004%
IMD: <0.0004%

• amp output:
Frequency response: 20-80kHz /-0.1dB
Signal to noise ratio:> 120dB
Channel crosstalk: -120dB @ 1kHz
THD + N: <0.0005% @ 6000mW into 32Ω LOAD
IMD: <0.0005% @ 6000mW into 32Ω LOAD
Maximum distortion output power 6000mW into 32Ω LOAD
Maximum output power *12000mW* @ 32Ω (when THD = 1%)

• Load power:
64Ω      5360mW
150Ω    2680mW
300Ω   1340mW
600Ω   670mW


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## wwmhf

It seems to be a capable amp! But the price ...


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## TPSRA

mandrake50 said:


> I see it listed for $1300.00
> A bit steeper than that $600.00 that was mentioned as acceptable, but the specs do look good.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUS...19029768.html?spm=2114.search0304.4.50.KMRinQ
> It would be nice if I could find some reviews. Maybe Massdrop will get it for around $800.


I doubt that's legit bc Gustard said they are still looking for transformer for 110V, there's only 220V version right now. 
Also 5380rmb=800usd, 1300-800 = 500 importer took $500 to their pocket...


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## mandrake50

TPSRA,
Can you tell us where you are reading the information on this amp?
I would be interested in following its development too.


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## canthearyou

Hmmm...


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## TPSRA

mandrake50 said:


> TPSRA,
> Can you tell us where you are reading the information on this amp?
> I would be interested in following its development too.


https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...1UaUEl&id=553344102668&ns=1&abbucket=5#detail
5380 rmb.
"H20仅限中国大陆上市，请代理商不要发布于国际平台，国外上市时间另外通知。
暂时只有230V版本,没有115V版本."
Roughly translated to  "H20 is limited to China right now, distributors please don't release on international platform. Currently there's only 230V version."


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## AlexRoma (Nov 8, 2018)

Even below 1000$ I wouldn't try it considering the almost end-game, trusted options like
* Shiit Audio mjolnir (850$)
* Cayin iHA-6 (Auralic Taurus clone, no preamp) for 999$ and
* Auralik Taurus MKII for slightly more - 1500$ brand new. King of all SS amps.

I wander if there are any headphones, planar, dynamic or whatever that will really benefit from more power Taurus provide (Stax is an exception)


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## mandrake50

Well, You name some fine amps here. Still, I would like to see what people say about the amp... after they hear it. I am going by my experience with the H10. I find it to be a very nice amp for the price. So I think I will give it a chance. If they run some hot deal on Massdrop, I may even pick one up to try.


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## l1ghtm4st3r

I've been periodically checking up on any news on the Gustard H20 (currently still in love with my H10). It looks like there's another seller of the H20 on AliExpress for £770:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUS...lgo_pvid=35240656-d790-4e40-9561-e07d58858a52
Bit more reasonable than the previously posted one at £1K in case anybody is interested.


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## canthearyou

Very nice! Has some great specs!


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## mandrake50

It does. Part of the allure of the H10 was it's modest price and the ability to easily roll opamps. While the H20 is not expensive, it likely will not appeal to the same buyers. I also did not see that the LM49720 chips are socketed. But this is difficult for me to see from the one picture of the internals that is available.
I still may be interested, but it will need to sound significantly better than the H10 to make that happen, and better than some of the other amps that I have around the same price,... or Massdrop will need to drop it and knock 40% off of the pricing that I see now. I impatiently await reviews.


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## mtoc

Noise figure. Not something common stuff. H10 is 10uv.


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## daltonlanny

These seem to be available for sale in the US now.
Has anyone bought one yet?
Impressions?


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## mandrake50

Where did you see them for sale?


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## daltonlanny

Ebay


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## daltonlanny (Sep 27, 2017)

Also available to purchase from AliExpress, and Shenzhen Audio from China.


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## canthearyou

From the pics on Shenzhen it looks like the op-amps are swappable.


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## wwmhf

canthearyou said:


> From the pics on Shenzhen it looks like the op-amps are swappable.



I hope so, but I did not see any swappable op-amps in those pictures posted on Shenzhenaudio.com


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## canthearyou

wwmhf said:


> I hope so, but I did not see any swappable op-amps in those pictures posted on Shenzhenaudio.com



I could be wrong but they look to be in sockets.


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## wwmhf (Sep 27, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> I could be wrong but they look to be in sockets.



Thanks for showing that to me, I overlooked. My guess at this moment is that those might be single op-amps.

This is good. I enjoy H10 very much because its op-amps swappable. It seems like that H20 can also bring similar funs to us.


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## daltonlanny

According to the specs this is a fairly powerful amp. Should be able to drive about any headphone out there.
Interesting.


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## BassDigger (Oct 1, 2017)

AaaHah!!! The H20 is available (in some parts ) at last! It's been a long time, waiting.

I had an H10 and enjoyed it. As others have said, it's good for the money. A solid performer, with plenty of power and control.
Like Accurate Audio, Gustard based the H10 on the Violectric V200. But, I think that the Gustard is potentially the best version, if the dual transformer design is anything to go by. However, it seems that the H10 also has the limitations of the Violectric design: namely some noticeable roll-off at the frequency extremes. Playing with the op-amps changes things, a little, but the overall sound is still the same.

The new H20 looks very interesting! And, at over three times the price (I paid) for the H10, I would be truly disappointed if it isn't.

Having sold my H10, to upgrade to something that isn't 'rolled-off', I'm currently looking for a new amp. Although the H20 price would be pushing my budget, I'm happy to pay that much, if I think it's worth it. Also, I have easy access to the Chinese market place. The H20 should be well worth a try.

I say "should", because I also have to remember a chief competitor: another Chinese manufacturer who has been around for a while, sells internationally, has an extensive range of well reviewed products (at very competitive prices), and also offers an impressive 10 year guarantee: Audio-GD. Forgetting about products from the US based manufacturers, the main competition seems to be the Audio GD NFB1 amp: it has very similar attributes to the H20 (9 watts; balanced or single-ended operation; lots of connections; relay/resistor(?) volume control, etc), and it offers remote control operation. AND it's available for 3/5s the price that the H20 is currently available for! I think the only thing that stopping the NFB1 from being THE 'go to' amp, in this price category, is that it's from China. But, we're not bothered about that, are we?
And that's not it. If, like me, you're prepared to take the risk of buying something a bit more 'hobbyist' from China, there are no end of designs for you to try. I'm going to take the plunge, and try a Chinese made Kevin Gilmore design. Kevin Gilmore, the man who thinks that Cavalli amps are overpriced, and Audio-GD offer a lot for the money. I should be rolling up my sleeves, (finding, dusting off, and) plugging in my soldering iron, and building my own. But, when the ready-made items are just a few clicks away, they seem like much less of a risk!

I don't know if anyone, with a better eye for this kind of thing, can see if the H20 is based (like the H10) on another design, or if this an 'all new', Gustard created, amplifier? It would be interesting to know. Tantalisingly, Huang's Taobao listing mentions "KG gold tune" capacitors. I wonder which 'KG' this is, and if it has any relevance to the overall design?!?

Anyways, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread (and anywhere else) in the hope of seeing some solid feedback about the performance of the H20: I'm a very interested observer. Heck! If the feedback is that good, then I'll get one myself, and leave my own comments. 

Edit: Spurred by some references at the beginning of this thread, I've just googled a certain 'liquid' amp. Hmmmm! I wonder if appearances are anything to judge by?!?


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## jeffhawke

canthearyou said:


> Very nice! Has some great specs!


Personally, I'd rather go for the Audio-gd 2017 NFB-1AMP, at about half the price


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## mandrake50

Care to mention why that would be?
I know you said  "personally" , but I would like to think that you have some reasons for the opinion.

By any chance, have you listened to both?

I am truly interested.


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## jeffhawke

mandrake50 said:


> Care to mention why that would be?
> I know you said  "personally" , but I would like to think that you have some reasons for the opinion.
> 
> By any chance, have you listened to both?
> ...


No, I only listened to the NFB-1AMP, and and found it beautifully neutral and transparent, with a high degree of technical sophistication (such as the current system inputs and relay controlled volume). Also, its low output impedance (1ohm) allows it to drive very sensitive iems. Specs being not too different, I would definitely love to give a listen to the H20 implementation, but it would have to be a major audible improvement vis-a-vis the Audio-gd for me to justify spending twice as much for the H20.


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## mandrake50

There are always diminishing returns with price. I guess I need to actually listen to the Gustard before I decide whether it is worth the price difference.


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## BassDigger

mandrake50 said:


> ....By any chance, have you listened to both?
> 
> I am truly interested.





jeffhawke said:


> ....I would definitely love to give a listen to the H20 implementation, ...





mandrake50 said:


> ....I guess I need to actually listen to the Gustard before I decide whether it is worth the price difference.



I won't be listening to it, anytime soon; I'm also waiting to read some impressions about how it sounds!

Has anyone seen any feedback, anywhere?


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## sebna

Yup, did anybody had a chance to hear it? The H20? I can have it for similar price as H10 with after-market opamps so it is an alternative


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## wwmhf

How? If that is not a national secret ...


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## sebna

On TaoBao or what ever it is called you can have H20 for ~600 euro which is what would cost me new H10 with set of Burson OPAmps...


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## BassDigger

sebna said:


> On TaoBao or what ever it is called you can have H20 for ~600 euro which is what would cost me new H10 with set of Burson OPAmps...



Errr....if the H20 doesn't sound significantly better than an H10 with a full set of ultra, mega, super-duper op-amps (and maybe few other mods), then I would be disappointed!

Sure, I'm certainly a fan of mods, upgrades, or whatever you want to call them, but they're just the icing on the cake; the garnish: they're just to fine tune and get the best out of the equipment, not make it perform like a higher model.
Yes, I know that there are exceptions (E.g. vintage DACs), but I don't think that a modded half-the-price amp, from the same manufacturer at the same time, could be the equal of their twice the price model.
So, given that Gustard is yet to produce a dud (TTBOMK), get the H20 (....and tell us all about it!!!). 
Just my opinion.


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## sebna

BassDigger said:


> Errr....if the H20 doesn't sound significantly better than an H10 with a full set of ultra, mega, super-duper op-amps (and maybe few other mods), then I would be disappointed!
> 
> Sure, I'm certainly a fan of mods, upgrades, or whatever you want to call them, but they're just the icing on the cake; the garnish: they're just to fine tune and get the best out of the equipment, not make it perform like a higher model.
> Yes, I know that there are exceptions (E.g. vintage DACs), but I don't think that a modded half-the-price amp, from the same manufacturer at the same time, could be the equal of their twice the price model.
> ...



I am not interested in being a guinea pig. H20 is not an evolution of H10 but a completely new construction so there is no grantee it will retain house sound of H10 (which was V200 clone) and I am after H10 house sound. Also H10 has low output impedance which will play nicely with my HPs which is not the case with H20.

So no thank you I will stick with H10. Also I do need extra power of H20.


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## BassDigger

sebna said:


> I am not interested in being a guinea pig. H20 is not an evolution of H10 but a completely new construction so there is no grantee it will retain house sound of H10 (which was V200 clone) and I am after H10 house sound. Also H10 has low output impedance which will play nicely with my HPs which is not the case with H20.
> 
> So no thank you I will stick with H10. Also I do need extra power of H20.



Interesting! You want somebody else to be the first to buy, try, and then write some impressions about the H20. Not you. Understood.
I guess that not everyone is willing to 'take one for the team'. However, I would be happy to, if I felt the H20 was the best option for me. I'm only refraining because...., perhaps the high price (if I'm honest), but mainly because I have a 'half the price', and possibly superior, option to try first. If I had more time (and a little more cash), I might have bought one already.

We all have different requirements, preferences, and even terminology. To me, any kind of 'sound' implies a characteristic that the equipment imparts into the music that I hear. I'm trying to move away from this. That's why I sold my H10. I enjoyed the tight, impactful, and well controlled bass, and its overall tonality. But, I could do without the rolled-off frequency extremes, and slight mid-bass hump (the V200 sound). If the H20 has all of these characteristics, I would see it as a failure on Gustard's part.

I am curious about your emphasis of the importance of output impedance. I'd always attributed the H10's tight bass to its fairly generous power output, but perhaps the low output impedance is more responsible for this. However, I don't recall anyone ever stressing the importance of the OI, when comparing solid state amps: the H20 has an OI twice that of the H10 (indicated by 200 vs 400 DF), which isn't a world of difference for a HP amp, surely. I mean isn't an OTL tube amp, why the concern about the output impedance?


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## sebna (Dec 10, 2017)

BassDigger said:


> Interesting! You want somebody else to be the first to buy, try, and then write some impressions about the H20. Not you. Understood.
> I guess that not everyone is willing to 'take one for the team'. However, I would be happy to, if I felt the H20 was the best option for me. I'm only refraining because...., perhaps the high price (if I'm honest), but mainly because I have a 'half the price', and possibly superior, option to try first. If I had more time (and a little more cash), I might have bought one already.
> 
> We all have different requirements, preferences, and even terminology. To me, any kind of 'sound' implies a characteristic that the equipment imparts into the music that I hear. I'm trying to move away from this. That's why I sold my H10. I enjoyed the tight, impactful, and well controlled bass, and its overall tonality. But, I could do without the rolled-off frequency extremes, and slight mid-bass hump (the V200 sound). If the H20 has all of these characteristics, I would see it as a failure on Gustard's part.
> ...



Well, there is so many reasons I went with H10 that I do not even know where to start . It just made sense for me.

You know already two of those reasons. But first mentioned is most important. By reading your posts and looking at your gear list I can tell that this is your hobby. Gear is as much as music is. My hobby is purely listening to the music. Gear is a sad necessity to get there. Nothing else. That is why I want to buy something which is of known quality and potentially suiting my current needs to cut down on the process of box swapping to absolute minimum hopefully to 0 (of box swapping). So H20 really does not fulfil this goal as it is of unknown quality and will not be my first choice.

Secondly I primarily listen on my speaker system which has not changed at all in 4 years (I know unheard of on forums) after initial setup and fine-tuning of details (I got away with minimal box swapping back then). The fact of primary listening on speaker system dictates my sound signature I am after with my secondary system - HP system. My speaker system is musical yet very detailed and resolving. It was built with focus listening in mind not for a background music playback type of listening.

My HP system is build in mind with backdrop type of listening in mind when I learn, browse the internet  and also for gaming (which I rarely have time for but when I do I would use it for it as well). So I am looking for sound signature which will allow for long fatigue-less sessions. This is the priority. I am sensitive to HF harshness (I am still quite young and can still hear extended HF - something which most of designers of high-end gear cannot hear because of their age so that is why so many devices have harsh top end - that is my theory anyway). 2nd place takes musicality and 3rd as much detail and resolution I can pack without affecting point 1 and 2 (because why not?).

So I think H10 (with its 0.0625 output impedance) and D7200 fits nicely into this plan (I will know for sure once it all arrives and is nicely burned in). Also your description why you looked for changed from H10 seems to confirm it because this is exactly what I am looking for ATM (until and if I change my mind when I hear it )

Another reason why I prefer H10 is that, other then speakers and HPs, I very much like to buy my audio gear 2nd hand which was possible with H10 and is not possible with H20 

To answer your question about impedance - low output impedance design is always better then high impedance one because it is universal. It will be a good match for all HPs when high impedance one will be only good match for high impedance HPs. D7200 are 25 ohms so very low impedance. H20 is listed as 200ohm output impedance and there is no damping factor listed. It has however  dedicated low impedance SE 1/4 inch jack and also high impedance SE 1/4 jack but the spec list just do not tell anything else then 200ohm so it is hard to say what is what exactly and how low is the SE low impedance 1/4 jack. It is probably very low impedance and they just messed up their spec list? But as I said I am not interested in being a guinea pig. Also at 600 - 1000e mark there is even more choice of well known and tested 2nd hand gear, which I would have to research (and I cannot be bothered to do at this stage) so I am happy to go for cheap and cheerful H10 for close to nothing 2nd hand when it is proven tested and well regarded option considered to be the best or one of the best of entry quality amp options?.

Finally as mentioned earlier H20 is their own Chinese design while H10 was a copy cat of V200 so of western design. I just do not know how good they are at their own. Again I do not want to be a guinea pig as gear is not my hobby and I want to cut this stage to minimum and move on to music listening. I still may need to swap H10 for something else if I do not like it but well this seems like a good choice for what I need from my HP system now.

I will be able to very easily assess H10 as I can feed to it quality signal from my main system so really what I will hear is the H10 and D7200 as the upstream is quite pure and well known to me.

What I did not mention before. I need the sound to be fast and dynamic as it is a must for gaming part (hence D7200). I also joined Sen HD-6XX drop because I never liked Sennheiser house sound  and I though I will give it one more shot at this price tag and completely different sound characteristics to D7200 (I never owned Sennheiser top-end models but auditioned them on numerous occasions). Do not ask me where is logic in this thinking but I guess that is the power of promotion which the massdrop price is... 

BTW best HPs I heard were LCD 3 with 20k Woo audio amp. Still quite far off my speaker system in some regards (and a bit better in intimacy!)... but very, very good sound never the less which I would be happy to have at home.

Cheers


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## sebna (Dec 10, 2017)

One more thing.

I do not like and neither one us should that with introduction of H20 they discontinued H10... those are not competing in same segment so why kill such successful product when there is clearly still demand for it?

Lets hope that is not because H10 is close enough in performance to H20 so it would be stealing the clients from H20 crowd?

Cheers


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## BassDigger

sebna said:


> Yup, did anybody had a chance to hear it? The H20? I can have it for similar price as H10 with after-market opamps so it is an alternative



I've always been a bit slow on the uptake, so please forgive me if I misunderstand, but this appears to be the comment of someone with a few bucks to spend and is trying to decide between a new $1000ish H20, or a H10 with opamps that would cost around the same. 

Even if you forget about the H20, buying a H10 with the intention of spending significantly more on op-amps to put in it is not the best use of available funds. As I said, opamps will only make a small change (which you may not even like) to the sound signature. Despite what some people preach, except in certain equipment opamps do not effect the sound to the same extent as tube-rolling.

You say that you are sensitive to treble; the treble characteristic of the H10, from what I recall (with the LCD2f), is a bit rolled off: the very highest treble is missing. But, the treble that is there can be a little splashy and unrefined: just at its highest extremes. I too can be very sensitive to treble (or whatever frequency is being exaggerated), but this slight splashiness was never a problem for me.
The truth is that it's the characteristic of the transducer that is far more important than that of the equipment downstream. So, if you're happy with sound sig of your current HPs, the H10 shouldn't do anything to upset this. If you're not so sure about your current phones, and you're hooked on the H10, then it would be worth checking out a pair of old Hifiman HE500s: they're said to have great synergy with that amp, and I believe it.

My theory, about the unbalanced sound signature of most headphones, is that it's expensive to build transducers (speakers, and it seems even more so with headphones) that can properly reproduce bass. So, our world is filled with equipment that reproduces poor quality bass, or not much at all, and people have gotten used to this. They've even split into camps: 'details freaks', and 'bassheads'. If there was such a thriving industry in 'kit headphones', as there is in kit speakers, I'm sure that I would own a pair, before now.

Getting back to the H20, i think that there must be some confusion with the figures: I've seen that it has twice the the output impedance of the H10, with a damping factor of 200 (vs 400 of the H10), into 50ohms. If the OI were 200 ohms, the amp would next to unusable! I have a little respect for Gustard and their products, and am able to experiment without losing money (most of the time). But, you're right to be cautious, especially when so little is known about it.


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## sebna (Dec 11, 2017)

BassDigger said:


> I've always been a bit slow on the uptake, so please forgive me if I misunderstand, but this appears to be the comment of someone with a few bucks to spend and is trying to decide between a new $1000ish H20, or a H10 with opamps that would cost around the same.
> 
> Even if you forget about the H20, buying a H10 with the intention of spending significantly more on op-amps to put in it is not the best use of available funds. As I said, opamps will only make a small change (which you may not even like) to the sound signature. Despite what some people preach, except in certain equipment opamps do not effect the sound to the same extent as tube-rolling.
> 
> ...



H10 with Burson V6 OPA costed my 370euro in the end (delivered).

Cheapest H20 would cost me 670e ex. dual delivery (if even possible as I would have to find reliable forwarding company in China) and ex potential import duties.

New H10 plus Bursons would cost me about 670 delivered.

Money is not a problem really. I could afford both options in any config but as I said before I do not want to be a guinea pig. Also it will not be a problem to sell H10 at the price I bought it if I do not like it.

It is not exactly the case what you have written about treble. Driver implementation has its traits but harshness in top end can and will come from any component starting from source then low quality DAC interconnects amps and finally from drivers in form of HPs or speakers. So if in general your end result is only to some extent dependant on your HPs or speakers. Of course if the HPs are excessively hot in HF range on their own it will be even more difficult to dial it in with other parts of the system (sometimes impossible). But low quality DACs and cables are usually as big if not bigger offenders in this regard as it is quite easy to get HP / Speakers which are tamed in HF spectrum but it is very difficult to find high-quality DAC and cables at reasonable prices unless you are ready to make some serious sacrifices / compromises and what has been once lost at the source / dac level you will never be able to regain downstream even when using 200k speakers and matching amps / cables. That is just the way it is.

As to the bass I agree with you in principal but I bet we mean something else all together. Most of hi-fi and hi-end equipment has way too much bass. Live music from live instruments never produces such pronounced high pressure and separated from the rest of the spectrum bass as what most users consider a holy grail of bass reproduction in sound systems.

Cheers


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## BassDigger

Well, I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing either.

I believe that transducers have a much larger variance (dB) of characteristics than amps or sources.

It seems that you didn't follow your original idea (of paying H20 money for a H10 with opamps). No need to thank me. 

Enjoy!


----------



## curt jester

Well,I've "taken one for the team" and I'm not even in the team...So,here we go,first post.I was hoping to get some feedback before purchasing the H20,however,it was available on amazon on sale at £630 delivered,so took the chance and went for it.Here's my views--It's the best amp I've heard to date,there again,I've not got many amps...lake people g109p,Violectric v90 and Gustards own H10.I'm experiencing great clarity in my music,being able to define lyrics that I'd never been able to make out before,it's musical in the sense that it portrays vocals clearly but never harsh,if I were to compare it to the H10,yes much better definition of individual instruments and vocals on tracks.I've been listening with a pair of hifiman 400i,using the supplied cable,however just got a balanced cable for the headphones and it makes a huge difference,at my preferred listening level I'm hardly moving the volume control.


----------



## bunkbail

curt jester said:


> Well,I've "taken one for the team" and I'm not even in the team...So,here we go,first post.I was hoping to get some feedback before purchasing the H20,however,it was available on amazon on sale at £630 delivered,so took the chance and went for it.Here's my views--It's the best amp I've heard to date,there again,I've not got many amps...lake people g109p,Violectric v90 and Gustards own H10.I'm experiencing great clarity in my music,being able to define lyrics that I'd never been able to make out before,it's musical in the sense that it portrays vocals clearly but never harsh,if I were to compare it to the H10,yes much better definition of individual instruments and vocals on tracks.I've been listening with a pair of hifiman 400i,using the supplied cable,however just got a balanced cable for the headphones and it makes a huge difference,at my preferred listening level I'm hardly moving the volume control.


Have you tried to swap the dual op-amps to a discrete ones like the Bursons or the Sparkos?


----------



## curt jester

Sorry,I'm not a tinkerer,but if I'm happy with the sound,why would I bother ?..


----------



## bunkbail

curt jester said:


> Sorry,I'm not a tinkerer,but if I'm happy with the sound,why would I bother ?..


It's part of the fun with these kinds of amp though, like the H10 (most of the discussions on the H10 thread are op-amp swabbing related). But I respect of your decision to not mess around with them, cheers.


----------



## sebna (Dec 21, 2017)

curt jester said:


> Well,I've "taken one for the team" and I'm not even in the team...So,here we go,first post.I was hoping to get some feedback before purchasing the H20,however,it was available on amazon on sale at £630 delivered,so took the chance and went for it.Here's my views--It's the best amp I've heard to date,there again,I've not got many amps...lake people g109p,Violectric v90 and Gustards own H10.I'm experiencing great clarity in my music,being able to define lyrics that I'd never been able to make out before,it's musical in the sense that it portrays vocals clearly but never harsh,if I were to compare it to the H10,yes much better definition of individual instruments and vocals on tracks.I've been listening with a pair of hifiman 400i,using the supplied cable,however just got a balanced cable for the headphones and it makes a huge difference,at my preferred listening level I'm hardly moving the volume control.



Can you let us know what is your source / transport? Have you tried H20 with any different HPs by any chances? Also what kind of music you were using for your tests with which you had problems understanding vocals before?

I must say that I never had experience like you are describing. If I had problems understanding vocal no matter the upping of the gear quality it has always stayed that way . Usually those problems are part of recording rather then ability of gear to resolve details. But then, even tough I heard few systems in my life and few items in my own system it is only a drop in the ocean and maybe I never encountered combination causing such problems.

(Also English is not my native language so in general some lyrics are hard for me to decipher and maybe being native speaker and combination of nice quality jump from AMP does make such difference in nuances of understanding of quite often some mumbling in the background  which is beyond my reach)

Tell us more please


----------



## curt jester

I'm listening to FLAC files played on an alienware laptop,through a Chord mojo into the amp...Music is pretty varied,but no hip-hop,metal or that ilk,so,think Bob Dylan,Joan Baez,Natalie Merchant type of thing,also likes of Drive by Truckers and Folkie,country rock....varied but with caveats,i suppose.
When I talk about words being clearer,for example,on Bob's-tangled up in blue,where the line goes-....as the crowd thinned out-I'd never made out the word "thinned" before.It never really bothers me that much,let's face it,your brain will fill in the blanks as it sees fit,similar to a word being obscured in a paragraph,you fit in what you believe and only change on more information being received. As for other headphones I've given it listen with old AKG K340 and a pair of Fostex TH500,but still prefer the Hifiman....
It may be prudent to point out I'm pushing 60,so high frequency response of the ears is definitely tailing off,and that will certainly affect how I perceive sound now,also,I've never used balanced connections before and that also would be affecting how I'm judging the sound from the amp.


----------



## BassDigger

curt jester said:


> Well,I've "taken one for the team" and I'm not even in the team...So,here we go,first post.I was hoping to get some feedback before purchasing the H20,however,it was available on amazon on sale at £630 delivered,so took the chance and went for it.Here's my views--It's the best amp I've heard to date,there again,I've not got many amps...lake people g109p,Violectric v90 and Gustards own H10.I'm experiencing great clarity in my music,being able to define lyrics that I'd never been able to make out before,it's musical in the sense that it portrays vocals clearly but never harsh,if I were to compare it to the H10,yes much better definition of individual instruments and vocals on tracks.I've been listening with a pair of hifiman 400i,using the supplied cable,however just got a balanced cable for the headphones and it makes a huge difference,at my preferred listening level I'm hardly moving the volume control.



Not "in the team"?!? Curt, you are now. In fact, you're the team leader!
£630 is a good price, especially delivered (to the UK, I guess). I'm glad your first impressions are good. As i'm sure that you're aware, Gustard amps have reputation for needing some time to run in. So, it will be great if you can post some further details. I, for one, am interested the know about the frequency extremes, compared to the H10: I expect that the H20 has much better resolved treble, and probably more even and extended bass (that's _my_ wish list, anyway).

It's looking less likely that I'll be joining this ship, and becoming a 'fully paid up' member of the H20 crew: I've just taken delivery of a more 'experimental' amp, that I'm hoping to have the time, and cause, to write some superlative laden posts in another thread. However, I haven't even plugged the thing in yet, so never say never.

Some seem more interested in their op-amps, than their amps. Don't they?


----------



## Fatdoi

Massdrop just listed it for $800


----------



## emrelights1973

İt is Strange that h10 is so popular  but this one is total silent

Does  it have a remote?


----------



## curt jester

emrelights1973 said:


> İt is Strange that h10 is so popular  but this one is total silent
> 
> Does  it have a remote?


No,no remote I'm afraid.......


----------



## BassDigger

emrelights1973 said:


> İt is Strange that h10 is so popular  but this one is total silent
> .....



Strange indeed!
No disrespect to the current commenters (of which, I am one), but maybe it has something to do with not being picked up by some of the more popular posters. I seem to remember that's when the H10 thread really took off. A H10 thread that sometimes discussed a 'H20 wishlist'. Well, here it is, but there's more tumbleweeds than commenters.


----------



## firegon (Dec 30, 2017)

emrelights1973 said:


> İt is Strange that h10 is so popular but this one is total silent


Sadly it's not entry level anymore. With the increase in price, things like warranty or availability in stores get more important. Obviously nobody wants their 800$ amp to spontaneously combust or fry their headphones.
Aaaand it competes with amps like used BHA-1 with 15+ years of warranty.

We need to wait a bit longer, I honestly believe it might be the next "best buy" in its price. Obviously judging by the specs and experience with H10.


----------



## BassDigger (Dec 30, 2017)

firegon said:


> Sadly it's not entry level anymore. With the increase in price, things like warranty or availability in stores get more important. Obviously nobody wants their 800$ amp to spontaneously combust or fry their headphones.
> Aaaand it competes with amps like used BHA-1 with 15+ years of warranty.
> 
> We need to wait a bit longer, I honestly believe it might be the next "best buy" in its price. Obviously judging by the specs and experience with H10.



Yeah, sure, with the higher price the pool of potential buyers is bound to be smaller. Factor this in with the fact that many still regard all Chinese products as something of a risky purchase, and the price has far more significance.

I guess what would really kick things off is, firstly more feedback (especially if it's good) from people who have actually heard the thing; and secondly (going back to my last post) some pleasant superlatives from an experienced listener who can compare it to a known (and respected) quantity.

EDIT: A BHA-1 with HD800, you do like your detail!


----------



## sahmen

Well, I am really tempted to hop on the Massdrop train, because of my He-6... But then I have the Violectric V281 and the Audiogd NFB1 amp, both of which I love very much. So what to do?  I am only tempted because I wonder whether the He-6 would perform better on the H20...   I wish someone would give me a definitive sign...


----------



## bunkbail

sahmen said:


> Well, I am really tempted to hop on the Massdrop train, because of my He-6... But then I have the Violectric V281 and the Audiogd NFB1 amp, both of which I love very much. So what to do?  I am only tempted because I wonder whether the He-6 would perform better on the H20...   I wish someone would give me a definitive sign...


Buy it, for science. Put them against each other and sell the losers.


----------



## BassDigger

sahmen said:


> Well, I am really tempted to hop on the Massdrop train, because of my He-6... But then I have the Violectric V281 and the Audiogd NFB1 amp, both of which I love very much. So what to do?  I am only tempted because I wonder whether the He-6 would perform better on the H20...   I wish someone would give me a definitive sign...



It would be an interesting match: NFB-1 vs H20. I have a feeling the H20 would probably edge out the Agd. However, those he-6s need power and plenty of voltage with it. I'm not sure if the H20 will out-do the nfb1 here. 

IMO you seem to have scrimped on your amp selection: you've a selection of pretty serious headphones there, but just a couple of mid-fi amps. And on another (off-topic) note: I'm curious to know how those amps of yours compare with each other. I had a H10 (essentially a Violectric clone), and was considering replacing it with an NFB-1, until I got something else.


----------



## sahmen (Dec 31, 2017)

.


----------



## sahmen (Jan 1, 2018)

BassDigger said:


> It would be an interesting match: NFB-1 vs H20. I have a feeling the H20 would probably edge out the Agd. However, those he-6s need power and plenty of voltage with it. I'm not sure if the H20 will out-do the nfb1 here.
> 
> IMO you seem to have scrimped on your amp selection: you've a selection of pretty serious headphones there, but just a couple of mid-fi amps. And on another (off-topic) note: I'm curious to know how those amps of yours compare with each other. I had a H10 (essentially a Violectric clone), and was considering replacing it with an NFB-1, until I got something else.



i like both the NFBi Amp and the Violectric V281, mostly for their versatility, but also for the way they sound, but I have never really felt the need to compare them in a head-to-head shootout because they're deployed in 2 separate systems, with the V281 serving the more sophisticated main 2-channel/7.1 HT system I have, and the NFB1 amp deployed in a near-field desktop 2-channel studio-like system in my office.  I am sure popular opinion on Head-fi would give the edge in performance to the V281 because of its relative prestige and price, but if I am to be honest, I wouldn't be so sure, since, as I have said, I have not A/B'd them together yet.

Ironically, when it comes to the He-6, I think I have a slight preference for its performance, connected via speaker taps, on the more vintage Bryston 2b LP (which also happens to be the cheapest of the lot), because I feel the tactility of the bass a little better on it than on the other two (which is not to say the bass is anywhere near anemic, let alone, unacceptable on the NFB1 amp or the V281, or even on the Cavalli Liquid Carbon)...  The other side of the coin is that the other amps, the NFB1 amp, and especially, the V281, show more versatility in driving my other cans, whereas the 2b LP handles only the He-6 and none of the other cans...  Actually, I think it is in the area of this versatility with handling multiple headphones with ease and grace that the V281 may turn out to be superior to all the others.  Not a single one of all my headphones has sounded "bad" on that amp.  The Cavalli Liquid carbon is also good in this regard, but it is a lot less powerful, and its connectivity options are relatively limited.


----------



## sahmen

bunkbail said:


> Buy it, for science. Put them against each other and sell the losers.


I wish I had the freedom to do that, but I need to guard against such experimentations these days because of budget constraints...  On the other hand, one aspect I am finding really attractive about the Gustard H20 are its connectivity options, which seem to match those of the V281 quite well.  The V281 is so versatile in this regard that it is serving both as a regular headamp for headphone listening, attached to my Yggdrasil, and also as a pre-amp in my main two-channel rig for listening with my speakers, as well as connecting to my subs, and it is doing quite a wonderful job in all three roles.

I would like to have the H20 playing the same triple roles in my 2nd 2-channel/7.1 HT system, if I could assure myself that it would have a sound quality that-at the very least--rivals that of the V281. If I could be certain of that, I would jump on the Massdrop train in a heartbeat...  I just wish I could find listener reviews for the H20...


----------



## BassDigger

sahmen said:


> I wish I had the freedom to do that, but I need to guard against such experimentations these days because of budget constraints...  On the other hand, one aspect I am finding really attractive about the Gustard H20 are its connectivity options, which seem to match those of the V281 quite well.  The V281 is so versatile in this regard that it is serving both as a regular headamp for headphone listening, attached to my Yggdrasil, and also as a pre-amp in my main two-channel rig for listening with my speakers, as well as connecting to my subs, and it is doing quite a wonderful job in all three roles.
> 
> I would like to have the H20 playing the same triple roles in my 2nd 2-channel/7.1 HT system, if I could assure myself that it would have a sound quality that-at the very least--rivals that of the V281. If I could be certain of that, I would jump on the Massdrop train in a heartbeat...  I just wish I could find listener reviews for the H20...



Your hesitation, indecision, or whatever your want to call it, is quite understandable: it's a chunk of money, and the product is such an unknown quantity.
However (and I'm not necessarily advocating the H20 here), I think that you would enjoy a higher quality amp.
I did considerable research, when choosing my last amp, and i narrowed it down to a version of the Violectric (2nd hand V200/281, Accurate Audio clone, or H10). I chose the H10, and by all accounts, it has basically the same sq characteristics as the others. I've written about this elsewhere, but whilst it's a solid design, electrically robust, and with no major flaws, it's still very much a mid-fi product. I think that if you find a way to get a more resolving amp, then you'll really get to hear what your headphones (and DACs) can do.
I've got a feeling that the H20 could be that amp, but that's my gut feeling: you have to follow your own.


----------



## BassDigger

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...Kvcyw&id=553344102668&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail

There's plenty feedback here, but it's in Chinese. Does anyone know a Chinese headfier who'd like to help out?


----------



## sahmen

BassDigger said:


> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...Kvcyw&id=553344102668&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail
> 
> There's plenty feedback here, but it's in Chinese. Does anyone know a Chinese headfier who'd like to help out?




Yes there is indeed a lot of feedback on that site... Using the Google translation feature, I can see that a lot of it is positive, but the language is too mangled for me to get any useful details out of the individual impressions. Someone on Massdrop said he has read a message on a Chinese forum in which the poster compared this unit to the Cavalli Liquid Gold, but he could not recall exactly where.  It would be nice for someone who speaks or reads Chinese to chime in here... That would be really helpful.  In the meantime, thanks for posting this link.


----------



## BassDigger

sahmen said:


> .... the poster compared this unit to the Cavalli Liquid Gold,.....



Well, it certainly looks like the Cavalli,....on the outside, but somehow I don't think that the H20 has the same similarity on the inside, in the way that the H10 does with the V200.
This could indeed be Gustard's problem: by making the amp look so much like a very sought after model, maybe they've risk it being seen as a 'copy', rather than a 'clone', or something substantial and of their own creation.

Unfortunately, Google translate doesn't know what to do with those Chinese phrases and idioms


----------



## franci2105

Hi, anyone bought the H20 to post some impression?


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## BassDigger

It seems that some do more writing, than reading!


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## sebna

BassDigger said:


> It seems that some do more writing, than reading!



I would not reply to him. Why would you bother if he cannot be bothered to read last few replies in the thread?


----------



## BassDigger

sebna said:


> I would not reply to him. Why would you bother if he cannot be bothered to read last few replies in the thread?



Call me soft-hearted, if you like. Whilst giving someone the 'silent treatment' has its uses, I just thought that the guy deserved a hint. Maybe next time he'll remember.


----------



## tonyxiaoz

BassDigger said:


> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...Kvcyw&id=553344102668&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail
> 
> There's plenty feedback here, but it's in Chinese. Does anyone know a Chinese headfier who'd like to help out?



A few reviews mentioned the like the H20 with HD800. They say the soundstage is wide and the midrange is solid. 

A more specific review said he tested H20 with Beyer T1 Gen2 against the amp part of A20H (another gustard product I guess?). He said there's more bass, wider soundstage, better vocal, and feels more 3D than the amp component of A20H, but similar treble. He also said H20 has a blacker background, and is overall worth the price if not a steal.

Hope this helps.


----------



## tonyxiaoz

Would love to see someone here post a first-hand listening impression though.


----------



## BassDigger

tonyxiaoz said:


> Would love to see someone here post a first-hand listening impression though.



You say "a" first hand listening impression: are you not happy with the one posted on page 3? 

BTW. Thanks for the Taobao feedback.......err....feedback.


----------



## tonyxiaoz

BassDigger said:


> You say "a" first hand listening impression: are you not happy with the one posted on page 3?
> 
> BTW. Thanks for the Taobao feedback.......err....feedback.


Sorry, I meant more first-hand impressions. Your impression on page 3 is very helpful.


----------



## sebna

tonyxiaoz said:


> Sorry, I meant more first-hand impressions. Your impression on page 3 is very helpful.



... it was not his impressions...


----------



## tonyxiaoz

*The impressions


----------



## BassDigger

sebna said:


> ... it was not his impressions...



True enough. Thank you for pointing that out.

I get the feeling that there's some resentment, aimed in my direction.

I don't share the same enthusiasm as you, about op-amps, and I'm sorry if i've been a bit snarky about it.

Whilst they are a factor, I think that there is a danger of overemphasising the importance op-amps. In my experience, there are usually better ways to spend your cash, before op-amps become a compelling option. For instance, I think a good quality (but not necessarily expensive) power cable is a 'must', for any amp, and both the H10 and H20 are no exception.

Also, it seems to me that Gustard have given reasonable consideration to the choice of op-amp used in the H20. Additionally, I believe that these op-amps are only used in the input section, rather than the output. These factors suggest that changing them is less likely to have any particularly positive effect on the overall SQ. But, it will be nice when this thread has reached the point when many users are discussing the sq of the H20, and the effects of various mods including op-amp swabbing. I just don't think that we're anywhere near that point, yet.


----------



## soumya.banerjee (Feb 6, 2018)

After many months of deliberation, endless hours of contemplating I committed to this amp and Holo Spring DAC Deluxe Edition.


----------



## bunkbail

Holy schiit, that's so sexy. Congrats on the purchase, hope you can share your impression in coming days.


----------



## BassDigger

soumya.banerjee said:


> After many months of deliberation, endless hours of contemplating I committed to this amp and Holo Spring DAC Deluxe Edition.



Hey, lucky you: it's looks like you've got two new 'toys' to play with.
Don't forget to post your impressions: please include some details, like what phones you're using it with, and what other amps you can compare it to.
Cheers.


----------



## soumya.banerjee (Feb 6, 2018)

Thanks folks!
Coincidentally that's the exact phrase I used to break the good new to my friends in local circle - "unboxing new toys".

I am still waiting on Amazon to deliver the XLR cables. There after I will test with K712 Pro and HD 800.
Thus far, I have tried with EL-8 Open, Shure SRH840, MDR 7506 and M50x.

It took me barely 20 minutes of listen yesterday, and I knew I am not going back to my Schiits - Lyr 2 (Gold Lion tubes/LISST or Valhalla 2).
And I have listened to several other amps at events and my friends place including Audeze Deckard, RJM Sapphire, some WooAudio crap (can't recall which one), Burson Play (with several OPAMPs at different stages), Aune B1 and Aune X7.
None come close to this amp's clarity, pace, tonality and immensely accurate biasing of load.

My gripes thus far are:
1. For silver model, the markings are in white - which is very difficult to read. Black variant is fine.
2. The matrix based pot triggers relays to switch for every change in volume. Can be annoying to someone else present who is not wearing a headphone.
3. There is no manual whatsoever. Just a warranty card from Gustard.

My unit was manufactured on Jan 24th 2018, just couple of days before I placed order at Shenzhen Audio.
The amp tends to use some kind of adaptive biasing current/voltage, based on load it seems - very similar to Lyr 2.
It has two 6.3 mm SE jacks - one for low impedance loads and another for high gain impedance loads.
There are a total of 4 x 3300uF Nichikon caps. 2 per channel. Separate power supplies as you can see from snaps each having their own toroidal copper transformers.
Heat sinks have been used very generously for current stages, which though get hot, it never dissipates down to outer aluminium chassis much. It remains just mildly warm even after several hours of usage - may be because it's winter here.  Still using Schiit Lyr 2 with tubes / Valhalla 2, I could fry eggs after about 90 mins of operation.
Chassis has pretty thick aluminium sheets / slabs and is very sturdy and well built.
There is no vibration whatsoever either from transformer or any other components under operation.

The gain switch is very special - it's not the typical gain switch in other desktop amps where flicking it results in sudden spike/drop in amplitude.
Instead its soft and subtle and takes about couple of seconds to make the load over-driven / under-driven or just correctly biased. Very neat implementation.
Thus far I have not played around with OPAMPs at all. So everything is using LME49720 - two of them socketed as you should find in one of the snaps.

Together with Spring, the chain sounds unbelievably transparent, resolving. Every transient hits the transducer with such force.
Just to make sure I have individual impressions of the DAC and AMP, I initially chained H20 with my previous DAC - SMSL M8A powered by a Sony 5000mAH power bank (since the DAC sounded cleanest that way). Both using PCM with linear phase slow roll-off and DSD 512 upsampled using Foobar DSD Processor - Type C and some DSD256 upsampled from FLACs using SoX. I immediately felt the urge to crank up the volume since I was enjoying the dynamics and pace of the amp. I usually don't listen very loud and exhibit extreme restrain by setting optimal loudness level by listening to 1kHz sine wave test tone at 0dBFS for a while. But yesterday, I threw all that out of window 
And things went uphill after Holo Spring came in the picture.

I shall update my impressions with HD 800 / K712 Pro /EL-8 once XLR cables show up. That'll be 5V RMS per channel into H20.

Here some snaps which I took yesterday, please ignore my shoddy skills behind the lens.


----------



## BassDigger

soumya.banerjee said:


> Thanks folks!
> Coincidentally that's the exact phrase I used to break the good new to my friends in local circle - "unboxing new toys".
> 
> I am still waiting on Amazon to deliver the XLR cables. There after I will test with K712 Pro and HD 800.
> ...



Thanks for that, but perhaps you could go into more detail next time (Jus'kiddin'! )

If you can find out, I'd like to know which Woo amp that you thought wasn't so good: I've always read that their stuff is excellent, but of course, there's a whole range of products, and you could be referring to any one of them. 

More importantly, it'll be interesting to read your impressions about the difference that using the balanced outputs makes, along with such headphones as the HD800. One of the things that put me off going for the H20, as all of my cables are 6.3mm SE terminated.

Enjoy your toys, and keep up the good 'work'!

Cheers.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

BassDigger said:


> If you can find out, I'd like to know which Woo amp that you thought wasn't so good: I've always read that their stuff is excellent, but of course, there's a whole range of products, and you could be referring to any one of them.


So asked him, it was WA-3. I can't speak for other models out of experience. One of the guys I know who is in KL, Malaysia right now, tried out WA-7 infatuated by its nice looks. He was disappointed and said something as inexpensive as XD-05 with OPA2209 sounded leagues better. From what I have seen thus far, getting an OTL amp to sound right is not so straightforward. Anyways, I am digressing from the subject now.



BassDigger said:


> One of the things that put me off going for the H20, as all of my cables are 6.3mm SE terminated.


So H20 has both SE input (RCA) and SE outputs (2 x 6.3 mm). You will be covered.


----------



## bunkbail

soumya.banerjee said:


> So asked him, it was WA-3. I can't speak for other models out of experience. One of the guys I know who is in KL, Malaysia right now, tried out WA-7 infatuated by its nice looks. He was disappointed and said something as inexpensive as XD-05 with OPA2209 sounded leagues better. From what I have seen thus far, getting an OTL amp to sound right is not so straightforward. Anyways, I am digressing from the subject now.


I auditioned a WA-6 last Sunday and it honestly sucks. The headphones I tried (HD650, Ether, HEX v2, AR-H1) all sounded better from R2R-11 headphones out than the WA-6 (using R2R-11 as DAC).


----------



## FLguy

soumya.banerjee said:


> Thanks folks!
> ... It took me barely 20 minutes of listen yesterday, and I knew I am not going back to my Schiits - Lyr 2 (Gold Lion tubes/LISST or Valhalla 2).
> And I have listened to several other amps at events and my friends place including Audeze Deckard, RJM Sapphire, some WooAudio crap (can't recall which one), Burson Play (with several OPAMPs at different stages), Aune B1 and Aune X7.
> None come close to this amp's clarity, pace, tonality and immensely accurate biasing of load....



Thanks - it's good to have additional first hand impressions. That much sounds good!

If you get a chance, could you comment on your impressions of sounds stage width and especially depth? Capability in these areas would be additional goodness.


----------



## BassDigger (Feb 7, 2018)

soumya.banerjee said:


> So asked him, it was WA-3. I can't speak for other models out of experience. One of the guys I know who is in KL, Malaysia right now, tried out WA-7 infatuated by its nice looks. He was disappointed and said something as inexpensive as XD-05 with OPA2209 sounded leagues better. From what I have seen thus far, getting an OTL amp to sound right is not so straightforward. Anyways, I am digressing from the subject now.



Yeah, well the WA7 is just a combination dac/amp unit, if I'm not mistaken. I've never been tempted by that, or any other combi unit.
OTL? I don't know about the WA7, I just know that those amps are for high impedance cans, only.



soumya.banerjee said:


> So H20 has both SE input (RCA) and SE outputs (2 x 6.3 mm). You will be covered.



Aah! But my concern is about the difference between those outputs: most balanced amps, that have an SE output, just do so for convenience; the SE output is often literally half of the available balanced output circuitry. You seem to have an understanding of H20's design/implementation: is the SE output of the same quality as the balanced?




bunkbail said:


> I auditioned a WA-6 last Sunday and it honestly sucks. The headphones I tried (HD650, Ether, HEX v2, AR-H1) all sounded better from R2R-11 headphones out than the WA-6 (using R2R-11 as DAC).



Interesting. I was never truly tempted by the standard WA6, but the SE version was something that I nearly nabbed, on ebay, on more than one occasion. I've always had the belief that tubes should be great for driving headphones. Swapping tubes, of course, has major effect on the sound of such amps. But, I can't see a tube roll turning a "suck"ing amp into a good one. Saying that, although I'm not familiar with all the phones that you tried it with, I'd say that the WA6 is probably too laid-back (and perhaps lacks voltage) to match well with the (high impedance) HD650, and may be under-powered for the HEX and Ether.

This is maybe all OT, and a bit academic, I know, particularly as I am very happy with the amp that I've already got. But I think that this H20 has some real potential, and a key point of reference is the points of reference that people are comparing it to. That means that talk about the strengths and weaknesses of other amps (particularly highly respected designs) is all relevant talk, imho n'all.


----------



## mandrake50

Is the 200 OHM output impedance for the balanced output that is listed in the specs that I have seen accurate. That seems excessively high to me. I have seen nothing on the output impedance of the SE outputs. Often this is half the balanced out impedance. Again, too high for most of the headphones that I use. The Aeon Flow open and closed comes to mind. Has anyone found a way to contact Gustard? I would like to write and ask if the specification is being reported accurately. I have looked at length for contact info, but struck out.


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## BassDigger (Feb 16, 2018)

mandrake50 said:


> Is the 200 OHM output impedance for the balanced output that is listed in the specs that I have seen accurate. That seems excessively high to me. I have seen nothing on the output impedance of the SE outputs. Often this is half the balanced out impedance. Again, too high for most of the headphones that I use. The Aeon Flow open and closed comes to mind. Has anyone found a way to contact Gustard? I would like to write and ask if the specification is being reported accurately. I have looked at length for contact info, but struck out.



You've not mentioned where you saw these specs, but I think that I recall seeing something that appeared to be a mis-translation, somewhere. I think that the "200 ohm" refers to the damping factor, rather than any output/input impedance. If I'm correct, then 200 seems a reasonable figure.


----------



## mandrake50

BassDigger said:


> You've not mentioned where you saw these specs, but I think that I recall seeing something that appeared to be a mis-translation, somewhere. I think that the "200 ohm" refers to the damping factor, rather than any output/input impedance. If I'm correct, then 200 seems a reasonable figure.


 Specs are posted in several places. Most recently and clearly on Massdrop. It seems that a few people did the calculations and 200 Ohm output impedance just does not work with the rest of the specs. It most likely the damping factor and not impedance. But, it is definitely listed as the balanced front panel output impedance in the published specifications. It is the same in all of the several places that these are available.


----------



## mandrake50

From Massdrop spec list:


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## soumya.banerjee (Feb 17, 2018)

My guess is it should be 200 milli Ohms instead of just Ohms. Given how nicely biased this amp is with my IE 800 (single ended low gain) and Noble Audio Kaiser Encore (using 4 pin XLR to 4 pin 2.5 mm jack) and how dynamic it sounds, the impedance CAN NOT be more than an ohm.


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## gulakpii

I used the H20 with my 32 ohm and 300 ohm headphones and it sounds fantastic, and I never notice the output impedance of XLR amp is 200 ohms.
I just checked their Taobao website, and their spec says "the pre-amp XLR (in the rear panel) output is 200 ohm.
Would this have been a translation error, such that the pre-amp XLR is 200 ohm and NOT the "front XLR" phone jack?
Just guessing!


----------



## mandrake50

I agree. They (Gustard) , for their own good, should really get this fixed.
Many do not have the advantage  of an astute group of users such and on this forum.
Who knows how many have not bought the amp based on the published specifications.
Every place that I looked Everywhere the specs are published based on many, many Google searches)
This specification result is posted.


----------



## davveswe (Feb 27, 2018)

I asked shenzeaudio, and they replied with this.

Hi!

Is it really 200ohm. Like it says on product details?

Front analog output (XLR):

Output impedance 200Ω


Their answer is:
  Dear David,Front analog output (XLR):Output impedance＜0.1Ω.
200Ω is rear xlr output impedance.


----------



## wwmhf

soumya.banerjee said:


> Thanks folks!
> Coincidentally that's the exact phrase I used to break the good new to my friends in local circle - "unboxing new toys".
> 
> I am still waiting on Amazon to deliver the XLR cables. There after I will test with K712 Pro and HD 800.
> ...



Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences with us. Looking forward to your updates.


----------



## Alcophone

Drop is live again ($799), just for a few days, though. I like that the output impedance issue is dealt with, now what worries me is the lack of warranty.


----------



## sahmen

Yes, the lack of warranty really blows. For me, it is a deal-breaker, but then again, I already have the Violectric V281, so my interest in this unit came from a certain curiosity, and not from real need.


----------



## Zennheiser (Mar 22, 2018)

sahmen said:


> Yes, the lack of warranty really blows. For me, it is a deal-breaker, but then again, I already have the Violectric V281, so my interest in this unit came from a certain curiosity, and not from real need.


I just received one from Shenzhen (at the MD price, thank you Shenzhen) and it includes a "credit card" Warranty Card with the S.N. on the card.  The warranty is for TWO (2) years.  Not bad, overall.

Here are my first quick impressions:
1.  This is fresh outta the box and it is NOT burned in.
2.  Whoa, this thing sounds refined.  Liquid Gold isn't an unfair analogy.  Woo-boy.  NICE.  I'm driving my newest pair Senn 650's (tied for my all-around favorite 'phone, and probably one of the harder to drive flavors in my collection.)
3. It's not playing nice with my FiiO K5/E17K DAC.  Power it has in plentitude but I'm having to pre-amplify it with my K5's (NOT the E17k's) HP out.  It sounds lovely with the balanced 3.5mm to XLR ins and virtually identical through the unbalanced RCA inputs but you can open the (very cool) level control all the way to get the exact same (underwhelming, to be plain) level, which is not what I've come to expect using my Lyr 2 as an arbitrary reference. (The Lyr 2 is nothing if not, er, Ballsy.) If you push it hard enough from the rear, it outputs like crazy and has seemingly inexhaustible headroom.  (It'll play louder than I will tolerate for any length of time and it'll do it absolutely cleanly.)  But my PC/FiiO K5/E17K line outs won't get it done by themselves.   Maybe there's an internal gain setting nobody's talked about yet.  (There are three on the front panel, and it never comes off of the highest one.)  I'm going to contact Shenzhen about it.  I'd suspect the FiiO (gains on high through the HP out) except it drives the 650's pretty well on its own.  It doesn't sound as luxuriant as the H20 (using that or any other input pathway) but even at the Massdrop price, that was not something I expected.  When the K5's in USB DAC mode, No line level gain (or tone/balance) adjustments work unless I'm reading/doing something wrong.  (I ran the DAC flat, but again, it shouldn't have mattered.)  I think it almost has to be the FiiO's fault.  The 650's aren't featherweights to drive, but they're not Staxes either.  It takes voltage in to get voltage out.  (But boy, WHEN you do...) Either a bunch of people have it and are sitting on their experiences or I'm the first to "eat" the aforementioned bullet.  I have a D50 (and a Lynx Hilo for the AD side) on the way and that's likely going to be my very likely stopping point for personal/PC audio, at least for a pretty good while.  Those will tell the story, but I think the Lynx will take longer to integrate into my PC setup.


----------



## Zennheiser

Zennheiser said:


> I just received one from Shenzhen (at the MD price, thank you Shenzhen) and it includes a "credit card" Warranty Card with the S.N. on the card.  The warranty is for TWO (2) years.  Not bad, overall.
> 
> Here are my first quick impressions:
> 1.  This is fresh outta the box and it is NOT burned in.
> ...



Follow up:  I keep reading about people who get review samples to keep who do reviews.  (How does one get signed up for THAT? LOL...)


----------



## GUSTARD

Erratum on H20 parameter translation errors

Due to our negligence in translation, the H20 headphone amplifier had an error in the nominal headphone output impedance parameter, which is now corrected as follows:

The first published parameter has the following translation error:
Front analog output (XLR): Output impedance 200Ω

The H20 has a built-in preamplifier function. This output port is on the rear panel. The impedance description of the previous translation error actually refers to the impedance of the preamplifier output.
We previously mislabeled the output as 'preout'. But the translator misunderstood outlet became the front panel.

Corrected hereby, the actual parameters as shown below:






And sincerely apologize to all users and people who care about our products.


----------



## Zennheiser

Followup-Followup:  One important point I forgot to mention is I'm using the stock unbalanced 1/4" 650 cables.  I was able to try both of the analog input XLR's but I've done nothing with respect to using the XLR preamp outputs. Yet.


----------



## Alcophone

GUSTARD said:


> Erratum on H20 parameter translation errors
> 
> Due to our negligence in translation, the H20 headphone amplifier had an error in the nominal headphone output impedance parameter, which is now corrected as follows:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update and welcome to Head-Fi! Are you trying to get this fixed on Massdrop as well?

So before it said 200, now it says 100 (for the rear XLR). I guess either is fine, but that sounds like it was two errors in one.

Also, the low gain 6.35mm output has 50 ohms, while the high gain 6.35mm has 0.05 ohms? Is that right?
I would have used the low gain output with more efficient headphones, which usually are around 32 ohms, so not suitable for a 50 ohms output.


----------



## BassDigger

GUSTARD said:


> Erratum on H20 parameter translation errors
> 
> Due to our negligence in translation, the H20 headphone amplifier had an error in the nominal headphone output impedance parameter, which is now corrected as follows:
> 
> ...



Hello, and welcome. Who are you? A new (Gustard) employee, or just someone helping out?

Anyway, I thought that it was a translation error (i think that I said so, a few posts back): it's what made the most sense.

I'm very happy with my new (considerably less expensive) amp, so I won't be trying the H20 anytime soon. But, it's still interesting to read people's impressions of it, especially when it seems that it may be living up to (my) expectations.

Good stuff!

P.S. One query: Are the figures the correct way around, for the 6.5mm (L & H) single ended outputs? I assuming that L = low impedance, and H = high.


----------



## sahmen

Zennheiser said:


> 2.  Whoa, this thing sounds refined. * Liquid Gold isn't an unfair analogy. *



Could you kindly elaborate on this highlighted part?  How fair is the comparison, especially, if you're familiar with the sound of the liquid gold?  Thanks.


----------



## gulakpii

BassDigger said:


> P.S. One query: Are the figures the correct way around, for the 6.5mm (L & H) single ended outputs? I assuming that L = low impedance, and H = high.



The 6.35 jacks marked L and H are for Low and High impedance (not "gain") phones.
However, I like it better when I plugged in my AKG K712 (62 ohm) into the H socket.


----------



## Alcophone

gulakpii said:


> The 6.35 jacks marked L and H are for Low and High impedance (not "gain") phones.


On Massdrop, it says "In addition to the 4-pin XLR output, it has a 6.35-millimeter low gain and a 6.35-millimeter high gain."


----------



## GUSTARD (Mar 24, 2018)

Alcophone said:


> Thanks for the update and welcome to Head-Fi! Are you trying to get this fixed on Massdrop as well?
> 
> So before it said 200, now it says 100 (for the rear XLR). I guess either is fine, but that sounds like it was two errors in one.
> 
> ...



 Thank you! I've tried to contact with Massdrop, but still no reply.

On the prototype phase of H20, the preamp output impedance used to be 200 ohm. However, on the mass production phase, we have changed it to 100 ohm. Because we have improved the H20 circuit details，not only just this one，to make the objective measurement results  and sound quality better.

As for the L and H printed on the single-ended headphone output, L means that low-impedance (high-sensitivity) headphones are recommended, and H means that high-impedance headphones are recommended.

Today's low-impedance headphones typically have relatively high sensitivity and relatively small input power limitations.
In order to avoid too high damping coefficient or excessive output power affect the sound quality when using low-impedance headphones, we increase the output impedance of the low-impedance single-ended headphone output.
If your headphone’s sensitivity are not too high, it is recommended that you use the high impedance single-ended headphone output labeled H, its output impedance is close to zero, or use the dual  3 pin or  4 pin XLR balance headphone output.


----------



## GUSTARD

BassDigger said:


> Hello, and welcome. Who are you? A new (Gustard) employee, or just someone helping out?
> 
> Anyway, I thought that it was a translation error (i think that I said so, a few posts back): it's what made the most sense.
> 
> ...



 Hello, I am the official overseas customer service of GUSTARD.
Thank you for your attention and recognition of our products.
You mentioned that the meaning of L and H printed on the output of the H20 single-ended headphone output has been replied to Post #107. Thank you!


----------



## Alcophone

@CEE TEE Can you hook @GUSTARD up so they can set the details on Massdrop straight? Many people didn't join because of the confusion.

@GUSTARD, do you offer warranty for the amps purchased on Massdrop?


----------



## Zennheiser (Mar 25, 2018)

sahmen said:


> Could you kindly elaborate on this highlighted part?  How fair is the comparison, especially, if you're familiar with the sound of the liquid gold?  Thanks.


There are several ways to answer your question.  I'll stop with just a few.

1. I'm familiar with the inferences of the description of that brand name.  The company that built that amp named it Liquid Gold for a reason. But they don't own the rights to (or qualities of) those particular names/descriptives. That reason infers different things to different people, like "Stink" might or "Sunshine" might, but since everybody has at least a passing familiarity with both Liquid and Gold, it would be THOSE qualities to which I was referring, not NECESSARILY (or specifically) that amp.
2.  I think it sounds terrific. My curiosity about that amp was initiated by having heard an H10 at a show recently.  This sounds like a bigger, BADDER H10.  (Which it is. Mission accomplished!)  But I will say that I'm not sold on Class A amplification for anything besides "small voltage/wattage" amplification.  (Like headphones, for example.)  I've been around the track with Class A any number of times and I've found it both unreliable and (often, but not in this case) congested and compressed sounding.  I won't name brand names, but I came to this subsection of the audio hobby from 40 years of being a Professional Musician and having sold Home (and Professional) Audio.  I like this amp.  There was an information deficit about it (particularly about the Warranty, which is two years, by my direct experience, and I don't think Massdrop would fish the Warranty cards out of the boxes before Gustard ships them, but I guess I could be wrong) and after having waited a year, I decided to break that "Internet" silence.
3.  I remember discussing "Liquid Gold" with a friend (former student) that went to an early (for us) show close to a decade ago.  (It's where I met Ray Samuels and Joe Grado.)  I not sure I HAVEN'T heard one.  But since I don't own one or haven't spent years around one, this would be my acknowledgment.

So apart from your inquiry, what I think I'm seeing (the advantage of being old) starting to form is (among other things) a hostility to everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) that's not domestically sourced.  I've been through this when American Audio Underground Journals ignored (GOOD) Japanese gear because (primarily) it was Japanese.  It took me decades to gather enough evidence to figure that pattern out.  (Every issue of both Stereophile and TAS up until about 2005. Plus many discussions with salespersons, sometimes being simultaneously quasi-literate and hostile.)  I see that pattern beginning to reassert itself. It didn't yield good results in the '80's and it won't yield good results now.

I totally get worries about manufacturer support.  Concerns about warranty coverage (and reliability) are real and concerns and questions about this (I'm right there with others on this) are legitimate. (A big reason I posted.) But both the build quality and sound is fine.  (YMMV.  I'm not sure why we even bother with that anymore...lol.)  My MAIN critical comment about it is the THREE gain settings are not significantly different from each other.  There should be a bit more gain at the highest setting.  My cans aren't THAT hard to drive.  (Isn't 2V the standardized output for line level outputs? I know most of my preamps put out around 13V, but that's not line level, that's amplifier input level and that's variable through the variable gain volume control.) I also volunteer that I'm not heavily invested in the balanced cables (or aftermarket cables period) portion of this hobby.  That's where my efforts will be concentrated next.  But judging from the setups of friends/acquaintances (I found some great insights with this listening to the Blue Hawaii amp at the last show I attended) there are fewer "slap in the face" obvious differences between most dynamic phones.  I own ONE pair of planars.  I heard more differences in amps with the planars.  As ("if" now, there are things that stray into the political realm, so I won't elaborate) prices drop, I might be willing to invest further in Planars. (But only if the ask drops.) The speakers in my main audio system are (LARGE) planar magnetics, and the amplification that drives them is pretty overwrought by average consumer standards.  Since the Monoprices are the ONLY planars I own, my comments about the H20 should be kept in perspective as having been rendered with both stock cables and with dynamic phones.  This amp might not be for everybody, but in a room full of VERY fine amps, the two that caught my ear (at the last show, last month) were the Lyr 2 and that Gustard H10.  Since there is no place to hear an H20, I decided to blaze that trail myself.  I'm very likely going to keep it, but I haven't decided that yet.  I have a Topping D50 that's going to arrive on Tuesday and I've just finished installing a Lynx Hilo A/D, D/A converter in my home studio.  That will tell me more, especially with respect to the sound of the H20 through its balanced outs.  Thanks for your response, and please know that I don't consider myself to be the "be all, end all" authority.  We are all formed/shaped by our experiences.  I just try to be upfront with what mine have been.


----------



## jazzk

Impressions on my mass drop h20.   Having owned the h10 with burson op amp mods for 6 months I took the plunge on the h20 and received it last week.  The h10 was my entry into a better amp for my hp addiction. Was really pleased and made me curious what higher quality and power could give me.  Bought an oppo ha1 from a head fier next. Aside from a really cool display the oppo barely outshines the h10(if at all)   The  h20 is clearly head and shoulders above those .  Clarity, resolution, impact, soundstage, and control all are more pronounced on the h20.  Having listened to a Zana duex with focal Utopias and a blu Hawaii with stax at the Carolina can fest I got a really good idea what topl gear sounds like. The h20 will not knock off those giants but with my hd 800's and really all my headphones this amp has been impressive. A 2 year warranty card did come with amp!  I have been a sound geek for most of my life and music listening is a daily habit, my headphones make it really enjoyable and the h20 makes it even better.  Just wanted to add some noise cause it looks like not too many peeps on the h20 train unlike the h10 which was so well regarded.


----------



## sebna (Mar 25, 2018)

Can one roll OPAmps on H20?

How is the high frequencies part of spectrum reproduced on H20 in compare to H10?

Thanks


----------



## jazzk

I have not taken the cover off to investigate. Really easy on the h10.  I think I read somewhere that op amps are soldered in. Not sure. Everything is better on this amp compared to h10.  I really like both amps but the h20 is more powerful and dynamic. I am no expert in these audiophile matters but it easy for me to tell how much more superior the h20 is! I can only compare to my oppo and the h10. Hope that helps.


----------



## Zennheiser

I'm not sure why you couldn't, but I haven't taken the bonnet off of it.  I probably won't for fear of voiding the warranty.  I'll look forward to reading more about it.  I was an early adopter of the amp, I'll let somebody blaze that trail.  But following with interest.


----------



## Zennheiser

Everything I heard that I liked in the H10 is there in spades with the H20.  Again, my only gripe is there isn't a ton of increase in the highest gain level.  It's sufficient (after weeded out a few problems on my PC) to the task.  But I'm used to amps that have enough gain to get to full output around One O'Clock on a traditional ALPS type pot.  I've become aware of manufacturers who like to protect themselves with gain controls that turn to "Five O'Clock" (and still not be at full rated output) thanks to a couple of generations having grown up with movies like BTTF and "Risky Business", but I prefer to have a little "wiggle room" above/beyond that.  But that's from having spent most of my life with analog recording, with all the benefits and deficits that it entails.


----------



## sebna

Zennheiser said:


> I'm not sure why you couldn't, but I haven't taken the bonnet off of it.  I probably won't for fear of voiding the warranty.  I'll look forward to reading more about it.  I was an early adopter of the amp, I'll let somebody blaze that trail.  But following with interest.



He never said he could not. He just did not... same as you.


----------



## jazzk

If I get curious I'll let u guys know. Rite now quite thrilled by what i'am hearing. Running full balanced off antelope zodiac plus. Sounds better with all my cans!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Yes, you can roll OPAMPs. The stock configuration of LME49720NA are socketed in DIP-8 sockets. I intend to get the Sparkos SS3602 for some fun later. That said 49720 themselves are very linear, clean sounding!
I don't fully understand why some people feel there is not enough gain in H20 - even for SE outputs the gain is fairly high. However, in balanced mode (4 pin XLR) my LCD-X gets loud at about 7:30 ~ 8 pm position with Sonarworks and Replaygain in effect. Crazy if you ask me. And as of course I have iterated before, there is no change in tonality as I push the volume up to levels which I feel are annoyingly loud for me.


----------



## Zennheiser (Mar 25, 2018)

Not crazy.  Because individual perception of EVERYTHING in audio is incapable of being objectively measured from the wetware side.  What we know about how Humans perceive any sense is completely awash in relativism, even if the gear isn't.
Bob Carver once famously annoyed Harry Pearson with the puckish observation there is no such thing as an "Absolute Minestrone".  Regrettable maybe, but inarguably true.  If I ever have to open ANY amp's gain control to "wide open" then it doesn't have enough gain.
Doesn't have to be true for you.  But over four decades of experience as a recordist and Musician biases me to occupy that potential consumer datapoint without a lot of regret.  Remember, I like the H20.  No product is perfect.  That's a pretty mild ding...when it's all said and done.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

@Zennheiser , never called you or anyone crazy, for the sake of clearing out semantics of my post's wordings. Just find it difficult to grasp, because all my headphones are driven to insane loudness (low impedance planars to high impedance dynamic drivers) levels at anything in between 10 to 2 o clock position in single ended outputs. With XLR this travel of potentiometer is even low. One reason could be you are accustomed hearing somewhat at loud levels and/or the headphone you have, has got very low sensitivity. Just a guess.


----------



## Zennheiser (Mar 25, 2018)

"Crazy if you ask me..."
I didn't take offense at it.  Just explaining my take on the one aspect of the amp that didn't seem ideal from my perspective.  This issue comes up all time and it's often confused with hearing loss/impairment.  Musicians (I discovered this myself several years ago) are exposed to LIVE Music pretty much constantly.  (I wore hearing protection on commercial gigs.)  What happened to me (I'd spend all day every day in front of 60 piece Wind Ensembles when teaching, or IN them when performing) and what happens often isn't loss it's desensitization.  (I don't startle watching horror movies, either.  But they famously telegraph the "opportunity" for it in advance. Lol..)  My desensitization actually decreased starting about five years after I retired.  I couldn't get listener fatigue (didn't know what it was) for my entire playing life.  But my preferences regarding this have everything to do with not wanting to have to open up ANY gain control to the end of its travel for ANY reason.  I dislike it, even if it's "acceptable" there.  In terms of perception, I'm more sensitive to low-level audio now than at any time since I was a teenager.  Life can still throw surprises and I still HAVE a startle reflex, but within known surroundings and repeatable parameters/expectations, I definitely get listener fatigue more quickly than at any time previous in my adult life.  It's a fascinating topic.  And again, awash in perceptual relativism.  The insight I have is being able to compare myself to myself over time.  There isn't a wrong, but more gain is better than less.  All other things being equal.  What it might do is make it tougher to publish noise floor statistics that are more "Shangrila" than  "real world".  That happened with distortion specs in the '80's after the Amp Power Spec wars of the '70's.  The Power Amp wars delivered (or failed to, usually spectacularly) on a much easier to perceive claim.  The distortion Wars (especially at that time) were much ado about nothing.  Three digits (of zeroes) right of the decimal aren't really audible as contrasted to five digits (of zeroes) right of the Decimal.  There's nothing new under the Sun.  Not even Class D or H. Peace!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Zennheiser said:


> "Crazy if you ask me..."
> I didn't take offense at it.  Just explaining my take on the one aspect of the amp that didn't seem ideal from my perspective.  Peace!



Ah, I see the reason for this confusion. That phrase was aimed at the amp (H20) getting loud (for me) so quick with XLR output when listening on LCD-X.
Sorry for the inadvertently created situation.


----------



## GUSTARD

Alcophone said:


> @CEE TEE Can you hook @GUSTARD up so they can set the details on Massdrop straight? Many people didn't join because of the confusion.
> 
> @GUSTARD, do you offer warranty for the amps purchased on Massdrop?


 
Yes, no matter which dealer you are buying from, as long as the product is still under warranty, we will definitely provide product warranty service.

However, when you need a warranty, you must first contact the dealer at the time of purchase. Then they are responsible for shipping the product back to China for repairs.After that we will handle all the rest.


----------



## sahmen

GUSTARD said:


> Yes, no matter which dealer you are buying from, as long as the product is still under warranty, we will definitely provide product warranty service.
> 
> However, when you need a warranty, you must first contact the dealer at the time of purchase. Then they are responsible for shipping the product back to China for repairs.After that we will handle all the rest.




Okay, I am just asking these questions in order  to be sure, because I do not always understand the language that describes the specs of this unit on the related internet sites I have found so far:  

1.  This unit can act like a pre-amp, right?  If so, might we legitimately call it an Amp/Pre-amp?

2. If it can indeed act as pre-amp, can it pass a signal (say from a DAC) to another amp without altering the sound (i.e. in "fixed gain mode?)

3.  Where on the internet can one find the most comprehensive English User Manual for this amp?

Thanks for you thoughts.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

sahmen said:


> Okay, I am just asking these questions in order  to be sure, because I do not always understand the language that describes the specs of this unit on the related internet sites I have found so far:
> 
> 1.  This unit can act like a pre-amp, right?  If so, might we legitimately call it an Amp/Pre-amp?
> 
> ...




1. Yes it has pre-amp outputs from the OPAMPs voltage gain stage. Stock being LME49720NA and they are very transparent.

2. Do understand that pre-amp is not a unity gain voltage buffer. It's actually the output of the voltage gain stage, hence levels change with potentiometer. You can however use an oscilloscope to set the pre-amp at desired voltage level using 0 dBFS 1kHz sine tone input from DAC and leave the potentiometer at that point - if that's what you want. Though I still don't understand why not use the DAC's line out as is instead of routing it via H20's pre-amp?

3. Good luck on that! If you find one, do let us all know


----------



## sahmen

soumya.banerjee said:


> Though I still don't understand why not use the DAC's line out as is instead of routing it via H20's pre-amp?



I shall use the same DAC attached to this Headphone Amp for listening, occasionally, to live L/R speakers in a 2.1/7.1 Stereo/HT system.   It is for those live speakers (serviced by the same DAC-schiit YGGY) fed by a couple of independent monoblock amps, that the H20 will need to function  as a pre-amp.

Now I have a setting on my Pre-pro that can pass an analog signal directly from an external DAC to the speakers without processing the sound in any way. I wish the pre-amp in the H20 could do the same thing, as that would make the set-up perfect for my needs.   I already have the Violectric V281 performing this same double function I have been describing in my main HT system, and it does an incredibly great job handling it, while supplying a line-out feed to my sub for two-channel speaker listening. I would like to use the H20 for the same duties in a 2nd system if possible, that is why I am asking.


----------



## gulakpii

sahmen said:


> Okay, I am just asking these questions in order  to be sure, because I do not always understand the language that describes the specs of this unit on the related internet sites I have found so far:
> 
> 1.  This unit can act like a pre-amp, right?  If so, might we legitimately call it an Amp/Pre-amp?
> 
> ...



Answer to your question #2:  Yes, it can act as a pre-amp and is indeed a very good one.  The level for the H20 pre-amp output changes with its Volume control though, and I hooked up my power amp inputs from these pre-amp output of the H20.


----------



## Bastianpp

any reviews of hd20+x22? look really amazing...
What is about the quality and warranty?


----------



## gulakpii

I don't have the H20 +_X22 combo.
I bought my X20U in 2016 and then my H20 winter of 2017.  I've been using tube-based head-amp before as I enjoyed the tube sound much.
I have to say I missed the fun of tube-rolling with the H20, but have to admit it sounds even better than my best tube combination on my 6SN7 head-amp.
The X22 will look better together with the H20 (the X20U is a size larger than the H20) since they are the same dimensions .  
The internal build quality of the X20U was amazing and was what attracted my eyeball (as an engineer) even before I had a chance to listen to it.


----------



## Bastianpp

gulakpii said:


> I don't have the H20 +_X22 combo.
> I bought my X20U in 2016 and then my H20 winter of 2017.  I've been using tube-based head-amp before as I enjoyed the tube sound much.
> I have to say I missed the fun of tube-rolling with the H20, but have to admit it sounds even better than my best tube combination on my 6SN7 head-amp.
> The X22 will look better together with the H20 (the X20U is a size larger than the H20) since they are the same dimensions .
> The internal build quality of the X20U was amazing and was what attracted my eyeball (as an engineer) even before I had a chance to listen to it.


can you  campare your x20u and h20 with others?


----------



## gulakpii

Sorry that I'm an engineer and definitely not good in describing "sound".
About DAC, I used to have an old Krell DAC which stopped working years ago, which kick-started my DAC searching journey.  The other DACs that I used in recent years are based on the 1794 and WM8741, as well as a Astell & Kern portable.
The dual 9018 in the X20 have better resolution and details - especially in the highs, but as you can see, it is not a fair comparison; the other DAC chips are a couple generations older and cheaper.

I do have strong likes in the H20.  I read good reviews on the H10, and I was getting confident with the brand with my X20U.  I went straight to the H20 when it came out, instead of the H10 which I originally opted for.  
It was a good decision.  Now I'm pairing it with a K712 (single-end jack) and HD650 (the balance jack).  
IMHO, I like the HD650 much with the balanced drivers!  Silky smooth and powerful sound with ambient --  and without the worry about the life of the tubes on my tube amp's.
The only thing I missed is the fun in tube-rolling, I may start rolling op-amps someday!


----------



## Bastianpp (Mar 28, 2018)

this amp and x22 really need reviews..., and place of selling in usa... i'm from chile, but it's more easy buy in usa than china..


----------



## Zennheiser (Mar 28, 2018)

I've given first impressions both here and elsewhere.  There's a lot to like about the amp.  Most of my experience has been with vintage gear (where the inclusion of onboard headphone outputs used to be a foregone conclusion and appears to be holding up well in comparison if the gear is restored/well maintained),  portables and dock type portables configurable with stationary headphone amps.  Portable/Personal audio is "hot" now and a "growth industry (apparently).  But relatively few of the amps I've heard actually move the SOTA forward.  (Many of the tube amps appear to me to be the same configuration as amps that were SOTA in 1966, just with rejiggered outputs for high impedance headphones.)  This one could be an exception.  In my experience, The Schiit Magni 3 is approximately a replacement for the headphone amp sections in analog source components (back when they had them), but NOT really a replacement for the Headphone amp sections in Integrated (and more rarely) stand-alone Power amplifiers from the latter "Classic" era of Modern High Fidelity.  The market fractured into nosebleed "so-called" High End later (the '80's) and "Wal-Mart" Stereo (boomboxes and shelf systems) and the Industry never really recovered HERE. (Semi-junk Audio's always been around, but the "good stuff" has lost ground in terms of market share HERE.) That spelled the end for the Industry's purchase on a majority of the broad American marketplace.  Great stuff that only about 2% of the population can afford doesn't really move the needle that much.  Now amps like the Lyr 2 (which I also own, purchased not a free review sample) is one of the FEW amps that seems like a genuine step forward.  (It also works as a great way to warm your hands after you've been outside in Wintertime.)  The H20 seems to check a lot of boxes for me that I was trying to "check" domestically, first.  But I couldn't.  (I've spent the last year or two looking.)  It does have balanced ins/outs.  It's Class A and appears to be fairly conservatively rated.  (I haven't hooked it up to my outboard 8903a yet.  I have the Pete Millet software but I haven't tried to integrate the two and run it/them yet.)  I read elsewhere that there are people who are set up to do this already and are probably more practiced at it than I am.  If they'll move forward (and give the H20 a fair shake) then I'm fine with being the curmudgeonly "old guy" just trying to lend a little perspective to a stimulated part of the avocation.  But if a balanced (subjective and objectively referenced) review doesn't show up, I'll review it myself.  Now is the time of year I start to spend more time away from the Computer keyboard.  The timing's not perfect.  But if someone's going to review it, now's the time.  I bought one after waiting a year largely because nobody would speak about it, here or anywhere else.  If it's a good amp, then a discussion would be worthwhile.  If it's not, the same logic holds.  My posts ARE just first impressions, but at least I had the stones to post them.  As it were.  let the reviews BEGIN.


----------



## sonicjr623

sahmen said:


> Okay, I am just asking these questions in order  to be sure, because I do not always understand the language that describes the specs of this unit on the related internet sites I have found so far:
> 
> 1.  This unit can act like a pre-amp, right?  If so, might we legitimately call it an Amp/Pre-amp?
> 
> ...



Answer for your question #3, I asked GUSTARD customer service yesterday, via their official email *gustard@163.com*
Here is the newest version of GUSTARD H20 English User Manual.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wyt2ckwqu35cddw/GUSTARD+H20+USER+MANUAL.pdf

BTW, I'm very satisfied with using H20 as a preamplifier.
My H20 is connected to a pair of BM15A, sometimes connected to DT880 600ohm, the performance is quite amazing.


----------



## sahmen

sonicjr623 said:


> Answer for your question #3, I asked GUSTARD customer service yesterday, via their official email *gustard@163.com*
> Here is the newest version of GUSTARD H20 English User Manual.
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/wyt2ckwqu35cddw/GUSTARD+H20+USER+MANUAL.pdf
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.


----------



## Zennheiser

Thanks.  I didn't get a hard copy or a link with my H20.  I did get the warranty card, though.


----------



## gulakpii

My Warranty card is like a real credit card!


----------



## Zennheiser

gulakpii said:


> My Warranty card is like a real credit card!


----------



## Zennheiser

Yup.  I remarked about that earlier and in my first impressions thread.  It has the "serial number" imprinted on it.  That should finally put the warranty issue to rest, with any luck at least.


----------



## NinjaMilez

Was looking at one of these to go alongside my X20Pro DAC and hoped someone could answer a quick question for me. 

Does the preamp output become muted once headphones are connected? The X20Pro has a minor quirk where all outputs are active at once and wasn't sure if the H20 would follow suit. 

Cheers,
Miles


----------



## Zennheiser

Not on mine.


----------



## sonicjr623

NinjaMilez said:


> Was looking at one of these to go alongside my X20Pro DAC and hoped someone could answer a quick question for me.
> 
> Does the preamp output become muted once headphones are connected? The X20Pro has a minor quirk where all outputs are active at once and wasn't sure if the H20 would follow suit.
> 
> ...



After power on, the H20's preamplifier output and headphones outputs are always active.


----------



## Zennheiser

sonicjr623 said:


> After power on, the H20's preamplifier output and headphones outputs are always active.


Correct.  I thought I'd made that clear in my post, but perhaps it could be misinterpreted.  I answered the question (as posed) in the negative, because the outputs are all active, all the time.


----------



## NinjaMilez

sonicjr623 said:


> After power on, the H20's preamplifier output and headphones outputs are always active.



Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## sebna

Available at Massdrop again


----------



## soumya.banerjee

I received Sparkos SS3602 last week. Been evaluating for last couple of days. I would strongly encourage H20 owners to invest in these OPAMPs. You will be pleasantly surprised. Will probably post detailed impressions of how H20 sounds after the mod. If there is one that stands out with Sparkos - insane SNR. With SS3602 in H20, you can hear the DAC's resolution limits. I didn't realise how much untapped potential SMSL M8A had. Of course with Holo Spring, it's a different level altogether.
LME49720 has a warm signature, lower detail levels, tones sound smeared with each other and consequently much lesser articulation. Make no mistake stock configuration of H20 with 49720 is very very good. However you will have no idea how transparent H20 buffer/output stages are until you try a more neutral and detail extracting opamp like SS3602. Please do give it a shot.

Btw, I didn't realise H20 does phase splitting from RCA inputs to its balanced outputs. Thought the XLR outputs only worked with XLR inputs, silly me.


----------



## alphanumerix1

On massdrop again is this amp actually worth a look?


----------



## Zennheiser

I wanted an amp that would drive difficult VERY difficult loads.  It sounds terrific and is immaculately constructed.  My other "end-game" amp is a Schiit Lyr 2.  That's going to do it for me outside of portables.  I think the current baseline in this hobby is "buy and flip".  I buy and hold.  The politics regarding where amps come from or whose economy they help or hinder is of zero interest to me.  But I do find some interesting trends in who responds, how and why in these discussions.  I know politics is everywhere, but this amplifier (after having heard and owning a number of amps now) is worth a closer look.  They also appear to do a decent job of holding their value.  That could change if 400,000 of them are manufactured/sold, but if they're all of the quality that mine represents, that'll be a worst case 400,000 satisfied customer knowledge base.  I like mine a lot.


----------



## Alcophone

Zennheiser said:


> I wanted an amp that would drive difficult VERY difficult loads.  It sounds terrific and is immaculately constructed.  My other "end-game" amp is a Schiit Lyr 2.  That's going to do it for me outside of portables.  I think the current baseline in this hobby is "buy and flip".  I buy and hold.  The politics regarding where amps come from or whose economy they help or hinder is of zero interest to me.  But I do find some interesting trends in who responds, how and why in these discussions.  I know politics is everywhere, but this amplifier (after having heard and owning a number of amps now) is worth a closer look.  They also appear to do a decent job of holding their value.  That could change if 400,000 of them are manufactured/sold, but if they're all of the quality that mine represents, that'll be a worst case 400,000 satisfied customer knowledge base.  I like mine a lot.


How would you describe the differences to the Lyr 2? I have tried it with LISST, stock tubes, Gold Lions and National 6922. I preferred the Jotunheim in all cases, though the Gold Lions had some charm. Thanks!


----------



## soumya.banerjee (Apr 14, 2018)

Alcophone said:


> How would you describe the differences to the Lyr 2? I have tried it with LISST, stock tubes, Gold Lions and National 6922. I preferred the Jotunheim in all cases, though the Gold Lions had some charm. Thanks!



I have Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2. Also have LISST and Genalex Gold Lion.
I will talk of Lyr 2 since that's what has been asked. Regardless of what tubes you use, you can not outdo the output stage of Lyr 2 - the FETs used imparts a grainy and veiled sound. Obviously these traits are not apparent until you hear something better. I have never been able to use a good / reference ESS DAC implementation with Schiit amps. These amps pair well if you are using Schiit DACs or any other DAC that uses AKM or Chord, which have a warm tonality.
Lyr 2 has a slam which might appeal to some - though it sounds very muddy or dirty. They do sound airy and have an emulated soundstage of their own.
Lyr 2 has a perceivable noise floor as you crank up the pot. My unit has about 17mV channel imbalance on low gain. Further I can't use it with my sensitive IEMs like Kaiser Encore etc. The noise floor along with some other spurious noise is a show-stopper.

Gustard H20 on the other hand is several leagues cleaner and much more neutral sounding. The difference is not subtle - it will jump right at you. What distinguishes H20 from Lyr and Valhalla is extreme clarity and dynamics. If you are like me who likes listening at moderate volumes, you will be surprised how much dynamics H20 has even at low volumes. H20 also has much more defined articulation and layering and while it's sound-stage is larger than Schiit amps, it's only obvious when the track calls for such spatial effects. Extension on both ends is much better too.
I was able to use sensitive IEMs without any spurious noise on H20.


----------



## Alcophone

soumya.banerjee said:


> I have Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2. Also have LISST and Genalex Gold Lion.
> I will talk of Lyr 2 since that's what has been asked. Regardless of what tubes you use, you can not outdo the output stage of Lyr 2 - the FETs used imparts a grainy and veiled sound. Obviously these traits are not apparent until you hear something better. I have never been able to use a good / reference ESS DAC implementation with Schiit amps. These amps pair well if you are using Schiit DACs or any other DAC that uses AKM or Chord, which have a warm tonality.
> Lyr 2 has a slam which might appeal to some - though it sounds very muddy or dirty. They do sound airy and have an emulated soundstage of their own.
> Lyr 2 has a perceivable noise floor as you crank up the pot. My unit has about 17mV channel imbalance on low gain. Further I can't use it with my sensitive IEMs like Kaiser Encore etc. The noise floor along with some other spurious noise is a show-stopper.
> ...


Thanks, that sounds quite encouraging. Nothing left but to try it for myself.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for sharing your impression, in particular the comparison with the two Schiit amps.



soumya.banerjee said:


> I have Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2. Also have LISST and Genalex Gold Lion.
> I will talk of Lyr 2 since that's what has been asked. Regardless of what tubes you use, you can not outdo the output stage of Lyr 2 - the FETs used imparts a grainy and veiled sound. Obviously these traits are not apparent until you hear something better. I have never been able to use a good / reference ESS DAC implementation with Schiit amps. These amps pair well if you are using Schiit DACs or any other DAC that uses AKM or Chord, which have a warm tonality.
> Lyr 2 has a slam which might appeal to some - though it sounds very muddy or dirty. They do sound airy and have an emulated soundstage of their own.
> Lyr 2 has a perceivable noise floor as you crank up the pot. My unit has about 17mV channel imbalance on low gain. Further I can't use it with my sensitive IEMs like Kaiser Encore etc. The noise floor along with some other spurious noise is a show-stopper.
> ...


----------



## FLguy

soumya.banerjee said:


> I have Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2. Also have LISST and Genalex Gold Lion.
> I will talk of Lyr 2 since that's what has been asked. Regardless of what tubes you use, you can not outdo the output stage of Lyr 2 - the FETs used imparts a grainy and veiled sound. Obviously these traits are not apparent until you hear something better. I have never been able to use a good / reference ESS DAC implementation with Schiit amps. These amps pair well if you are using Schiit DACs or any other DAC that uses AKM or Chord, which have a warm tonality.
> Lyr 2 has a slam which might appeal to some - though it sounds very muddy or dirty. They do sound airy and have an emulated soundstage of their own.
> Lyr 2 has a perceivable noise floor as you crank up the pot. My unit has about 17mV channel imbalance on low gain. Further I can't use it with my sensitive IEMs like Kaiser Encore etc. The noise floor along with some other spurious noise is a show-stopper.
> ...


Thanks for sharing your impressions - can you share any (more) observations regarding imaging realism and/or sound stage depth?


----------



## Alcophone (Apr 14, 2018)

soumya.banerjee said:


> I received Sparkos SS3602 last week. Been evaluating for last couple of days. I would strongly encourage H20 owners to invest in these OPAMPs. You will be pleasantly surprised. Will probably post detailed impressions of how H20 sounds after the mod. If there is one that stands out with Sparkos - insane SNR. With SS3602 in H20, you can hear the DAC's resolution limits. I didn't realise how much untapped potential SMSL M8A had. Of course with Holo Spring, it's a different level altogether.
> LME49720 has a warm signature, lower detail levels, tones sound smeared with each other and consequently much lesser articulation. Make no mistake stock configuration of H20 with 49720 is very very good. However you will have no idea how transparent H20 buffer/output stages are until you try a more neutral and detail extracting opamp like SS3602. Please do give it a shot.
> 
> Btw, I didn't realise H20 does phase splitting from RCA inputs to its balanced outputs. Thought the XLR outputs only worked with XLR inputs, silly me.


I have zero experience with opamps. Would I need to buy just one here for $79.80? Or do I need more than one? Thanks!

Edit: From Shenzhen Audio: "The front class consists of a single 4-way amplifier circuit, using two LM49720 dual op amp". So I guess two are needed. And I thought tube rolling is pricy :-D


----------



## Zennheiser (Apr 14, 2018)

I'm not that precious/self-conscious about semi-imagined differences.  Your ears (having the most slop in their operating parameters-owing to everything from relative Humidity to your blood pressure) have more variation in response than anything you described besides the Tubes.
Tubes are all over Hades and three Georgias, just after Ears, lol...
I prefer the LSST's, but I have a set of Tesla E88CC's (closely matched) that aren't too bad.  I stay off the Tube rolling gerbil wheel.  I keep a couple of Tube amps just to remind me of how much "opinion" resides in opinions.

I'm glad you like your amp.  I heard a bunch of nosebleed amps at the last show (including some Blue Hawaii amps) and they're nice. (And overpriced.)  Not better.  Nice. So is the H20, though the Lyr 2 doesn't sound like the H20.  Different.  Not better.   But that's the great thing about America, smoke 'em (or roll 'em) if you got 'em!


----------



## Zennheiser

I thought I was running out of time, so I cut my response short.  I apologize for not having any specificity in comparing the two amps:  The H20 is smoother and sounds like Class A.  Very refined.  The Lyr 2 sounds more like a Class AB powerhouse amp.  Both are a bit warmer than "neutral" to me.  The H20 warmer than the Lyr 2.  The Lyr 2 has more testicularity in the Macrodynamics department.  I don't hear any grain in my samples of either.  That said, the only planars I own are the M1060's. Most of my phones aren't super hard to drive.  The 650's and 990 are about as ugly as it gets and that's not "too" ugly at all.  I just wanted a couple of amps that would give me an alternative if I were to ever run across that fabled pair of esoteric electrostatic or planar magnetic (at a yard sale, lol) cans that present problems to amps.  Again, I tend to buy and hold, not buy and flip.  But if I run across the right deal, I won't rule anything out.  I once said I'd never own any Mac, and that turned out to not be the case...lol...Cheers!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Alcophone said:


> I have zero experience with opamps. Would I need to buy just one here for $79.80? Or do I need more than one? Thanks!
> 
> Edit: From Shenzhen Audio: "The front class consists of a single 4-way amplifier circuit, using two LM49720 dual op amp". So I guess two are needed. And I thought tube rolling is pricy :-D



Yes, that's right. You need two dual opamps because H20 is a balanced (symmetrical) amplifier.


----------



## Alcophone

soumya.banerjee said:


> Yes, that's right. You need two dual opamps because H20 is a balanced (symmetrical) amplifier.


Do you mind sharing a close-up picture with the opamps installed? I joined the drop and wouldn't mind just getting the SS3602s, but am also curious why you picked these over others. Thanks in advance!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Alcophone said:


> Do you mind sharing a close-up picture with the opamps installed? I joined the drop and wouldn't mind just getting the SS3602s, but am also curious why you picked these over others. Thanks in advance!



Certainly, my pleasure 






































As for why I chose them, a discrete OPAMP whose components are matched 'generally' will sound better than run off the mill mass produced OPAMPs in DIP-8 or SoIC packages. I read enough good reviews of this part.
While I was expecting things to be mostly 'different' as is with switching from one packaged opamp to another, I was grossly wrong.
If one thing that stands out is this OPAMP (SS3602) has a very very high SNR which lets you hear tiniest of the details from your DAC. To give you some idea - previously when changing PCM resampling filters, I had to listen for a while and switch back and forth from linear phase fast roll off to slow roll off. These kind of differences are so easily enunciated by SS3602. Or for that matter noise in USB data lines vs TOSLINK SPDIF. Which is why I said this part tests your DACs resolution limits.

The other thing is 49720 has a slight (ever so slightly to put it that way) warmth in mids in a very pleasing way though. SS3602 is what neutral is. And with Sparkos OPAMPs, H20 really approaches DC limits in low end. Was listening to some track of Ellie Goulding - Beating Heart, I think, whose opening passage a sub-bass rumble. It's funny how my K712 Pro wobbled at 8'o clock position with this opamp  
Anyways, I will say you will be investing in a very well made part for those 150 dollars should you go this route. It's not a subtle change! It's another thing you will find it difficult to switch back to your lesser amps after this mod or go back to 49720 even with H20.

Do drop Andrew Sparks a mail, he responds fast and is very helpful.


----------



## Alcophone

soumya.banerjee said:


> Certainly, my pleasure



Very nice, thanks a bunch!



soumya.banerjee said:


>



What is that little platform it's sitting on for, is that a riser or is it just there to protect the pins during transport? Or did you keep it on (hard to tell from the picture)? Is it included with the SS3602? I don't see it on the Sparkos website.



soumya.banerjee said:


> As for why I chose them, a discrete OPAMP whose components are matched 'generally' will sound better than run off the mill mass produced OPAMPs in DIP-8 or SoIC packages. I read enough good reviews of this part.



Yeah, I did some reading after posting my question, and it seems like a highly regarded part! Not your average opamp. Had I heard about it before, it would have been on my mind, too.



soumya.banerjee said:


> While I was expecting things to be mostly 'different' as is with switching from one packaged opamp to another, I was grossly wrong.
> If one thing that stands out is this OPAMP (SS3602) has a very very high SNR which lets you hear tiniest of the details from your DAC. To give you some idea - previously when changing PCM resampling filters, I had to listen for a while and switch back and forth from linear phase fast roll off to slow roll off. These kind of differences are so easily enunciated by SS3602. Or for that matter noise in USB data lines vs TOSLINK SPDIF. Which is why I said this part tests your DACs resolution limits.



That definitely does sound intriguing  This part made me very curious.



soumya.banerjee said:


> The other thing is 49720 has a slight (ever so slightly to put it that way) warmth in mids in a very pleasing way though. SS3602 is what neutral is. And with Sparkos OPAMPs, H20 really approaches DC limits in low end. Was listening to some track of Ellie Goulding - Beating Heart, I think, whose opening passage a sub-bass rumble. It's funny how my K712 Pro wobbled at 8'o clock position with this opamp



Good, that's what I'm worried about losing when switching away from the Jotunheim. It seems like tight bass is one its biggest strengths.

Now I only need more people to join the drop...

Thanks a lot! Very informative.


----------



## FLguy (Apr 15, 2018)

FLguy said:


> ... can you share any (more) observations regarding imaging realism and/or sound stage depth?


Bump... Sorry to follow up - It would be really helpful if we could get some additional info / impression(s) before the drop ends on Massdrop...

Can anyone share any impressions regarding imaging realism (and/or instrument realism)?

As this group knows, these are areas that start to separate good mid-fi amps (and DACs) from the next tier up. It would be _really_ welcome to have a bit more info in order to have a better understanding of whether this amp is good to very good mid-fi, commensurate with its $800 - $1K price (in the USA), OR whether its performance is above good mid-fi, particularly in these respects.

(Performance above normal for the price point would help offset any _potential_ for support / shipping delays in the event of issues down the road. I've never had a problem with Shenzen Audio or Gustard equipment, but shipping time is sort of a laws of physics / $$ issue. Of course another option for those concerned about support delays might a 3rd party warranty with US based service)


----------



## Zennheiser (Apr 15, 2018)

I've spent my life in live Concert Organizations, Conducting Wind Ensembles, playing in live Jazz venues and recording all of the above.  Soundstaging for the H20 is superb.  Front to back depth and height (let's keep it real here) is as good as any individual set of cans will allow it to be.  I don't mean to oversimplify, but the 'phones will have orders of magnitude more influence on the perceived end result.  What the better amps (different isn't necessarily inferior or superior as the great Robert W. Carver once annoyed Harry Pearson:  "There is no absolute Minestrone") all do is make sure they control the headphones in a way that's as close to the original signal as possible.  But being the last transducer in the chain, the more that's haphazard back up the line, will be MORE ruthlessly revealed with good amplification hooked to great transducers.  I would never have dropped the dime on the H20 if I hadn't been drawn BACK to the H10 at a local show back in February.  No amp is perfect, and there is no one size fits all "one device to rule them all" in spite of what's on the cover of what used to be Underground Audio publications every month.  I'm happy with my purchase.  I have no connection with Gustard.  My reference for an outboard "non-portable" amp before the Lyr 2 and H20 was the headphone output on my Lynx Hilo.  A boatload of Engineers plies their trade with those every day all over (what remains) of the Industry.  I don't blame anybody for not wanting to pull the trigger without having heard one first.  But that amp made/marketed/publicized "Here At The Western World" would be $2500.00 or more.  All I can say is you should seek one out at the next meet that has one.  Good luck!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Zennheiser said:


> I've spent my life in live Concert Organizations, Conducting Wind Ensembles, playing in live Jazz venues and recording all of the above.  Soundstaging for the H20 is superb.  Front to back depth and height (let's keep it real here) is as good as any individual set of cans will allow it to be.  I don't mean to oversimplify, but the 'phones will have orders of magnitude more influence on the perceived end result.



That's a great testimonial for the amp in subject! I was hesitant to reply anything along those lines despite experiencing what I call as very realistic imaging that mimics good stereo speakers; more so with an IEM like Kaiser Encore, just because 
(a) it's the headphones themselves that play greater role in transferring the spatial information on to the listener, assuming the recording, the DAC and amps are of high fidelity.
(b) people might interpret my enthusiastic impressions as endorsing Gustard or something along those lines. I hope have been keeping a fair balance between conveying my impressions as is and influencing someone else's purchase decision if at all something better exists at this price point. Though I am highly skeptical of that last part.
(c) it's difficult to say how realistic imaging is unless one has spent a lot of time in studios and concerts - not exactly my credential. Though have learnt classical music from child hood. So have an understanding of correct pitch and tonality.

In my experience with H20 with the above mentioned mod (SS3602) or even stock configuration, using HD 800 with XLR termination and Kaiser Encore, the amp does not have a character of its own when it comes to portraying sound-stage. Several amps which I heard tend to create an artificial sound-stage which wows the listener. Not H20. However wherever in the track there are these spatial sound effects or original information from studio (reverb and imaging) - assuming the DAC is faithful and the headphones are accurate enough, H20 portrays imaging with exceptional accuracy. Simply love the panning effects. Was listening to Saidi Swing by Yo-Yo Ma,  Sabre Dance - Vanessa Mae and Amber Rubarth Sessions From the 17th Ward in Binaural DSD recording. Phenomenal portrayal of recording environment!




Zennheiser said:


> My reference for an outboard "non-portable" amp before the Lyr 2 and H20 was the headphone output on my Lynx Hilo.  A boatload of Engineers plies their trade with those every day all over (what remains) of the Industry.  I don't blame anybody for not wanting to pull the trigger without having heard one first.  But that amp made/marketed/publicized "Here At The Western World" would be $2500.00 or more.  All I can say is you should seek one out at the next meet that has one.  Good luck!



I did have a hunch that H20 had it been marketed by bigger and established brands would definitely cost a lot more. Thanks for confirming that.


----------



## FLguy (Apr 15, 2018)

Zennheiser said:


> I've spent my life in live Concert Organizations, Conducting Wind Ensembles, playing in live Jazz venues and recording all of the above.  Soundstaging for the H20 is superb.  Front to back depth and height (let's keep it real here) is as good as any individual set of cans will allow it to be. ...



That's very helpful, thanks.


Zennheiser said:


> What the better amps (different isn't necessarily inferior or superior as the great Robert W. Carver once annoyed Harry Pearson:  "There is no absolute Minestrone") all do is make sure they control the headphones in a way that's as close to the original signal as possible.  But being the last transducer in the chain, the more that's haphazard back up the line, will be MORE ruthlessly revealed with good amplification hooked to great transducers. ...



Agree entirely - source material & source/DAC - and headphones of course! are key. I'm working on a revamp/upgrade and am just trying to eliminate the amp as the limiting factor in the chain. Deciding between this and some more expensive amp(s) as you say.


Zennheiser said:


> I don't blame anybody for not wanting to pull the trigger without having heard one first.  But that amp made/marketed/publicized "Here At The Western World" would be $2500.00 or more.  All I can say is you should seek one out at the next meet that has one.  Good luck!



Good advice of course. It's been a couple of years since I could make it to one, and this amp wasn't available then/there. Unfortunately the closest meets to me about about 4 hours drive - and occur every two years, so audition opportunities are limited to when I can get away to attend a show and some buy & resell if 'not for me' - which is not all bad, that has been fun & educational. Impressions from more experienced/trusted ears (than mine) are very welcome .

Thanks much for sharing your impressions.


----------



## wwmhf

soumya.banerjee said:


> I did have a hunch that H20 had it been marketed by bigger and established brands would definitely cost a lot more. Thanks for confirming that.



I surely agree with you.


----------



## sebna

Would be good if somebody could do direct comparison with H10 which I own and very much like.

My H10 is pimped with current Burson's V6 Vivid opamps.

Cheers


----------



## Alcophone

Now we're two who joined 
Just one more!


----------



## Zennheiser

I look forward to hearing more opinions about it as the drop folks receive their H20's.  I posted a request for it and then found one elsewhere.  I'm still a newbie at the Massdrop timing thing.  I'm having serious white-knuckle issues with that Elex drop.  But what I read seems to indicate that I'd like the Elear better.  Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Kaere

Would it be at the same level as a Master 9 or Mjolnir2?


----------



## Alcophone

And so, there were three! Yay!


----------



## lugnut

For people who bought the H20 on Massdrop, how do you feel about only having a 30 day warranty ? I find it a problem for me, others may not.


----------



## alphanumerix1

lugnut said:


> For people who bought the H20 on Massdrop, how do you feel about only having a 30 day warranty ? I find it a problem for me, others may not.



Do you still get the two year Warranty from gustard though?


----------



## Alcophone

lugnut said:


> For people who bought the H20 on Massdrop, how do you feel about only having a 30 day warranty ? I find it a problem for me, others may not.


Where have you heard about the 30 days?

I only know about this claim by Gustard:


GUSTARD said:


> Yes, no matter which dealer you are buying from, as long as the product is still under warranty, we will definitely provide product warranty service.
> 
> However, when you need a warranty, you must first contact the dealer at the time of purchase. Then they are responsible for shipping the product back to China for repairs.After that we will handle all the rest.



I'm assuming Massdrop counts as the dealer here.


----------



## lugnut

alphanumerix1 said:


> Do you still get the two year Warranty from gustard though?





Alcophone said:


> Where have you heard about the 30 days?


I was going to buy a Little Dot Tube amp from Massdrop, I asked about the warranty. Massdrop informed if there is no mention of a warranty listed on the product description page, it does not come with a manufacturer's warranty. Massdrop did say all products come with their 30 day warrant.
This has turned me off from buying a couple of amps. With the little dot I would have been better off paying a extra $50 & ebay and get a warranty. 
I would definitely ask !


----------



## Alcophone

lugnut said:


> I was going to buy a Little Dot Tube amp from Massdrop, I asked about the warranty. Massdrop informed if there is no mention of a warranty listed on the product description page, it does not come with a manufacturer's warranty. Massdrop did say all products come with their 30 day warrant.
> This has turned me off from buying a couple of amps. With the little dot I would have been better off paying a extra $50 & ebay and get a warranty.
> I would definitely ask !


I definitely don't like the idea of just 30 days of warranty. But there's a lot that would have been good to get more prompt clarification on in the Massdrop discussion... just check out the AAA 789 amp discussion, that's how it's done. So at least there's a chance that despite the Massdrop page not saying it, the two year warranty offered by Gustard holds. It would be really nice not having to wonder, though.


----------



## scottsays

I am considering the H20--also the Schiit MJ2 and Beyer A2-
Anyone have any advice for me? Reading this thread makes me very interested in the H20--
thanks for any advice--appreciate any input-


----------



## alphanumerix1

I'm sure gustard  has mentioned this having a two year warranty. Massdrop would just ship back gustard I would assume?


----------



## Zennheiser

The two-year warranty (I thought) was a foregone conclusion by now.  It's a little weird that it keeps coming up again and again and then, "one 'mo 'gin'".  (Sort of like the ending of Basie's "April In Paris".)
I have no connection with either Gustard or Massdrop.  I'd be really surprised if Gustard had that kind of disregard for a fledgling customer base.  That company could be a SERIOUS mover and shaker in the North American market and that would be the kiss of death for them, were they to do it.
Besides, wouldn't Massdrop have to open EACH box, fish the warranty cards OUT, seal the box back up (in a way you couldn't tell) and then ship it on to the customer and then chuckle fiendishly while fetishing a collection of Warranty Cards that they themselves could never use?

Have I missed something that happened on previous drops? If there was a widespread problem on a drop, did it involve Gustard?


----------



## lugnut (Apr 17, 2018)

Gustard may very well take care of their products, I do not know. However I do know what massdrop has stated about how they offer products with no manufacturing warrant so it makes me wonder about all products not listing a manufacturing warranty. I see this as a problem with massdrop first and foremost. A simple statement on the product page would fix any concerns.


----------



## BassDigger

Just to chime in here: I know nothing about Massdrop, but I too would be wary if a seller were only stipulating a 30 day warranty!
However, regarding Gustard, on the H10 thread (I believe) it was reported that they would honour the warranty on any amp, no-matter where it was bought (or something along those lines). I'm sure that I would recall if there were any 30 day limitation to this!

That was a couple of years ago. Things may have changed now. But i can't imagine that things have changed _that _much, if at all.

BTW It's nice to see that some interest has been sparked, around here!


----------



## Zennheiser

I appreciate everybody's input.  I'm relatively new to Massdrop myself.  I'm happy with the relatively few things purchased from them so far.  I've had more trouble out of sellers on Aliexpress than Massdrop.  My experience with purchases from Shenzhen has earned them my first place "go to" when it comes to having to shop outside traditional domestic platforms.  (ePay, Amazon, etc.)  In the space of relatively few transactions, I discovered that Aliexpress's buyer protection isn't all that robust.  You FEEL like you're doing business with the opposite side of the planet when it comes to them.  Messages are ignored.  Ship times are glacially slow.  Price transparency is sometimes a bit suspect.  (Coupons serially appear and disappear. Prices and shipping change on the fly. Prices fluctuate according to-I presume-exchange rates.) I'm (so far) happy with Massdrop and Shenzhen, but Aliexpress is on the bottom "only if I have to go through them to obtain something" rung of purchasing platforms. Live and learn.  YMMV...


----------



## lugnut

From the massdrop thread on this amp, it looks like Gustard WILL take care of any warranty issues, very good ! Now if massdrop would get that kind of service out of all vendors for warranties, that would be a step in the right direction.


----------



## Alcophone

Aaand there were five. Awesomesauce!


----------



## Alcophone

Alcophone said:


> What is that little platform it's sitting on for, is that a riser or is it just there to protect the pins during transport? Or did you keep it on (hard to tell from the picture)? Is it included with the SS3602? I don't see it on the Sparkos website.



I contacted Sparko and he confirmed that the socket is mainly there to protect the legs during shipping.

He currently has a discount available for first time customers, so I got two SS3602s for $70 each, plus $5 for shipping.


----------



## jazzk

soumya.banerjee said:


> Certainly, my pleasure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jazzk

Just put in the Sparkos in my h20. Wow ur were right !   Makes a great amp that much better.  Thanks for the tip.


----------



## jazzk

you were also right about Sparkos customer service. Super quick and retroly gave me first time discount.  Great op amp for the h20.  Stunning improvement in an already great amp.


----------



## wesxf

Hi all,

I am a first time head-fier and lurker on this board.   I got my Gustard H20 from the Massdrop sale earlier this week.

My first impression: what a splendid amp!  It really packs a lot of punch, I'm very impressed by how crisp and detailed music sounds relative to my previous amps (a Darkvoice 336SE and Massdrop CTH).  The bass response, in particular, is extremely impressive -- on rap and r&b songs the low end is really punchy.   I've been listening with a modded HD800 and Beyer T1.2 through the SE output, both sound really great.

On the advice of the board I've purchased the Sparkos Op-Amps, I'll post again once I've installed them.  Looking forward to hearing other folks' impressions!  I'm wondering if I should splurge on a balanced DAC in order to have a fully balanced setup?  If anyone has a recommendation, I'd love to hear it.


----------



## NinjaMilez

wesxf said:


> I'm wondering if I should splurge on a balanced DAC in order to have a fully balanced setup?  If anyone has a recommendation, I'd love to hear it.



If you are looking for a new DAC then I imagine that Gustard's X20Pro would pair very well with the H20. I have an X20Pro and it's great. Balanced too. I don't own a H20 so can't give any impressions on how they sound together. 

Saying that, if anyone has heard the X20 with the H20 then I'd love to know how they pair!


----------



## Alcophone

wesxf said:


> I'm wondering if I should splurge on a balanced DAC in order to have a fully balanced setup?  If anyone has a recommendation, I'd love to hear it.


My H20 should arrive today, and I'll try it with the Schiit Yggdrasil. I also joined the Topping DX7s drop. And as part of the discussions around the THX AAA 789 amp, CEE TEE hinted at having a balanced DAC coming.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Alcophone said:


> My H20 should arrive today, and I'll try it with the Schiit Yggdrasil. I also joined the Topping DX7s drop. And as part of the discussions around the THX AAA 789 amp, CEE TEE hinted at having a balanced DAC coming.



Curious to know your impressions of the stack.

I know R2R DACs have a charm of their own. I have a Holo Spring Level 2 (Deluxe) and when paired with H20, the combo sounds phenomenal. I am yet to hear a chain that sounds anything like this - being completely honest and devoid of any ownership bias here.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

NinjaMilez said:


> If you are looking for a new DAC then I imagine that Gustard's X20Pro would pair very well with the H20. I have an X20Pro and it's great. Balanced too. I don't own a H20 so can't give any impressions on how they sound together.
> 
> Saying that, if anyone has heard the X20 with the H20 then I'd love to know how they pair!



It's recommended to have the DAC do the balanced conversion / phase splitting. Though H20 does have that feature too.
So if you have a single ended DAC, and balanced headphones, you are still good.


----------



## wesxf (May 4, 2018)

Great success!!! I cannot A/B test what it sounds like versus the original op-amp configuration, especially since I bent the crap out of the original op-amps when I was wedging them out of the housing.  But I CAN say that the amp sounds really great with them installed.  It was not super hard to do.  Listening to Jobim's Wave right now, so much punch and detail.

for the life of me, I cannot get the images to post here but here is a link to the imgur album:

https://imgur.com/a/aTMwAkg


----------



## Zennheiser

wesxf said:


> Great success!!! I cannot A/B test what it sounds like versus the original op-amp configuration, especially since I bent the **** out of the original op-amps when I was wedging them out of the housing.  But I CAN say that the amp sounds really great with them installed.  It was not super hard to do.  Listening to Jobim's Wave right now, so much punch and detail.
> 
> for the life of me, I cannot get the images to post here but here is a link to the imgur album:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/aTMwAkg


I'm continuing to follow this thread for the op-amp comparisons.  Considering the deal offered, I might start rolling my first op-amps if it doesn't violate Gustard's Warranty.  (If it does, I'll wait.  Better to preserve the warranty as is.  And it sounds GREAT out of the box.)  Best to all!  Hope Spring's treating everyone well!


----------



## Alcophone

That thing is huge!


----------



## alphanumerix1

looks good! how does it sound?


----------



## Alcophone

My plan is to only listen with the H20 (with stock opamps) for a few days, and then do more direct comparisons with the Jotunheim, and maybe the micro iDSD, though at least with single ended outs those two seem to sound quite similar.

So far my impression is a vastly improved sound stage in that I am perceiving a lot more depth than I'm used to. I could simply misremember, though. Too bad the Yggy doesn't have two XLR outs, that would help with proper A/Bing.
The H20 sounds very detailed. The highs are a bit strident, though - so far.
Bass seems every bit as good as on the Jotunheim, if not better.
A few times it also sounded like something was briefly discharging, maybe (short pops). Maybe something needs to settle in, I have no clue.

This thing has insane amounts of power. It's plenty loud at 7:30 even on low gain. I'm using the 4-pin XLR out with my Ether C Flow right now, with Yggy balanced in. As has been mentioned before, the three gain levels seem a bit useless, as there's hardly any difference between them. The difference between the Jotunheim's two gain settings is much bigger than between the lowest and highest in the H20. Maybe that's different with the other outputs, I have yet to try those (and I don't have a headphone cable for the two 3-pin XLR outs). The volume cuts out relatively soon when turning the knob to its lowest setting, in that it could theoretically get a lot quieter before it mutes the output completely. On the bright side, I'm not noticing any channel imbalance, while the Jotunheim has some at very low volumes (much lower than I would ever use).
The volume knob is big and smooth, feels better than the Jotunheim's. Its volume indicator is not at all visible from where I sitting, because it's on the base of the knob, which is covered by the top from this angle. That's a silly design choice. The case is a fingerprint magnet, but it looks nice.

I'm definitely tempted to try the SS3602s right now, but this is plenty good for the next few days.


----------



## alphanumerix1

yeah best to get a good handle on the stock sound and see how you go from there.

You can add the op amps at any stage.


----------



## Alcophone

Surgery complete.


----------



## wesxf

Alcophone said:


> Surgery complete.


what did you do to that circular thing?


----------



## Alcophone

wesxf said:


> what did you do to that circular thing?


The cover of the toroidal transformer? It looked like this when I opened the amp up. Maybe some glue residue? Same with the scratches on what I assume are heatsinks.


----------



## alphanumerix1

So how does it sound now?


----------



## snip3r77

I wished they have a single port for the Balanced output


----------



## BassDigger

snip3r77 said:


> I wished they have a single port for the Balanced output



....so, you're happy now?


----------



## snip3r77

BassDigger said:


> ....so, you're happy now?



It’s discontinued and no single balance


----------



## Alcophone

snip3r77 said:


> It’s discontinued and no single balance


What are you talking about, exactly? *headscratch*


----------



## BassDigger

snip3r77 said:


> It’s discontinued and no single balance



Please explain. You're saying something (the H20?) is discontinued, and something (???) doesn't have the 4-pin balanced connector?!?

I don't understand. Can you supply a link?


----------



## emarshal

Is it possible @snip3r77 is thinking of the H10?


----------



## snip3r77

emarshal said:


> Is it possible @snip3r77 is thinking of the H10?



you're right. may bad

saw the H20 , 

balanced single port - checked
3.5mm - there isn't

why life is so unfair LMAO

how does h10 compares to h20?


----------



## Alcophone

snip3r77 said:


> you're right. may bad
> 
> saw the H20 ,
> 
> ...


Maybe you'd like the Massdrop THX AAA 789. 3.5mm, 6.35mm and 4-pin XLR. Don't know any other amp that has them all. Though 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapters aren't that big a deal in my opinion since they are so compact.


----------



## Zennheiser

*Ah, shucks*....I'll bet you say that to all the headphone amps...lol...
Seriously, I thought the same thing when I mine arrived.  It takes up a lot of real estate on my desk.
But it's worth every bit of it.  : - )


----------



## Zennheiser (May 17, 2018)

Sorry, I've been away with some health stuff...
I've heard (but don't own, just the H20) both.  I spent a lot of time with an unmodded (as far as I can recall) H10 at last year's local meet.
I thought the H10 sounded TERRIFIC and the H20 sounds very similar, but I noticed more than a few people cranking the gain to WIDE open on the H10.
That was one reason why I thought there were issues with it again on the H20.  It turns out I had a free EQ program engaged that didn't show on my desktop.
The gain was turned down to about half-way.  I opened up the gain to full and WOW....yeah it fixed THAT problem.  It's a very powerful amp.  For Class A it runs comparatively cool.  (It's still warm, though.)
I couldn't be more happy with my purchase.  But yes, they're tonally quite similar, just with more "there" there.  It has better bottom end, in particular.  Which is sort of a thing for me, in terms of "bias".


----------



## alphanumerix1 (May 20, 2018)

Anyone tested the Burson v6s against the sparkos?

Also what's the output impedance out of se and balanced?


----------



## Alcophone

The matching DAC-X22 has dropped:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x22


----------



## wesxf

Alcophone said:


> The matching DAC-X22 has dropped:
> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x22


what's the scuttlebutt on the X22? I've been impressed with the H20 and if they're competing in that league should be good.


----------



## Alcophone

wesxf said:


> what's the scuttlebutt on the X22? I've been impressed with the H20 and if they're competing in that league should be good.


I just joined the corresponding thread, https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-x22-dac.864254/. Apparently it seems to be a limited improvement of the X20Pro, but it's pretty new, so there aren't many reviews. And there's a rumor about an X30 or X22Pro coming. I joined the Topping DX7s drop, so I'll stay away from this one for now.


----------



## mandrake50

Well, I joined the recent drop for the H20. I have and have used the H10 since soon after they were available. So I figured I would give this one a shot. Too bad there are not many reviews. Not that I generally make decisions based on reviews, but it is a comfort thing. Beside that they often discuss things like how an amp under review handles SE to balanced out situations.

I have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. One of it's claims to fame is that it does phase splitting on the SE input to drive the entire amp for balanced out. Has nayone heard or determined what the H20 does with SE in and Balanced out. I do have a few balanced DACs, but a few that are not that I want to use with it.

Any info greatly appreciated.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

mandrake50 said:


> Well, I joined the recent drop for the H20. I have and have used the H10 since soon after they were available. So I figured I would give this one a shot. Too bad there are not many reviews. Not that I generally make decisions based on reviews, but it is a comfort thing. Beside that they often discuss things like how an amp under review handles SE to balanced out situations.
> 
> I have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. One of it's claims to fame is that it does phase splitting on the SE input to drive the entire amp for balanced out. Has nayone heard or determined what the H20 does with SE in and Balanced out. I do have a few balanced DACs, but a few that are not that I want to use with it.
> 
> Any info greatly appreciated.




Unsure what is it that you are exactly looking from online reviews or impression outside of head-fi thread, but there is enough discussion here with some in depth disassembly and mods. I understand your predicament since a little known company is asking 1k USD price for a headphone amp. But having heard so many amps at so many different events, meetups etc plus owning a slew of Schiit amps, I can safely say even with stock LME49720, it's the best sounding amp I've heard till date. 
Recently I got to hear Cayin iHA6 which is a well received amp by many online reviewers. Hear them side by side, you will realise the contrast and how much you are left wanting from iHA-6. 
In another comparison a friend of mine made RJM Sapphire V4.00 for an owner of Eddie Current Black Widow since Sapphire sounds really good. But H20 puts Sapphire to shame even with 49720 in terms of tonality, extension, speed and details. Of course your own listening habits, the headphones and lastly your DAC do play an important role in such comparisons. These comparisons I speak where done using HD 800/S, LCD-X, K712 Pro using either Holo Spring or SMSL M8A (modded with 49720 at I-V and LPF stages instead of OPA1612)

As for SE input, yes it does phase splitting for balanced outputs, so you are covered there. I mentioned this in one of my previous posts actually.


----------



## snip3r77

mandrake50 said:


> Well, I joined the recent drop for the H20. I have and have used the H10 since soon after they were available. So I figured I would give this one a shot. Too bad there are not many reviews. Not that I generally make decisions based on reviews, but it is a comfort thing. Beside that they often discuss things like how an amp under review handles SE to balanced out situations.
> 
> I have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. One of it's claims to fame is that it does phase splitting on the SE input to drive the entire amp for balanced out. Has nayone heard or determined what the H20 does with SE in and Balanced out. I do have a few balanced DACs, but a few that are not that I want to use with it.
> 
> Any info greatly appreciated.


I'm looking at massdrop liquid carbon and monoprice Cavalli too


----------



## snip3r77

soumya.banerjee said:


> Unsure what is it that you are exactly looking from online reviews or impression outside of head-fi thread, but there is enough discussion here with some in depth disassembly and mods. I understand your predicament since a little known company is asking 1k USD price for a headphone amp. But having heard so many amps at so many different events, meetups etc plus owning a slew of Schiit amps, I can safely say even with stock LME49720, it's the best sounding amp I've heard till date.
> Recently I got to hear Cayin iHA6 which is a well received amp by many online reviewers. Hear them side by side, you will realise the contrast and how much you are left wanting from iHA-6.
> In another comparison a friend of mine made RJM Sapphire V4.00 for an owner of Eddie Current Black Widow since Sapphire sounds really good. But H20 puts Sapphire to shame even with 49720 in terms of tonality, extension, speed and details. Of course your own listening habits, the headphones and lastly your DAC do play an important role in such comparisons. These comparisons I speak where done using HD 800/S, LCD-X, K712 Pro using either Holo Spring or SMSL M8A (modded with 49720 at I-V and LPF stages instead of OPA1612)
> 
> As for SE input, yes it does phase splitting for balanced outputs, so you are covered there. I mentioned this in one of my previous posts actually.


I'm using an LCD-X and I'm looking for a headamp too. Does h20 gives thick mids and bass heft and not bright?

Is h20 better than mjolnir2?


----------



## mandrake50

GUSTARD said:


> Yes, no matter which dealer you are buying from, as long as the product is still under warranty, we will definitely provide product warranty service.
> 
> However, when you need a warranty, you must first contact the dealer at the time of purchase. Then they are responsible for shipping the product back to China for repairs.After that we will handle all the rest.


 I know this was posted a while back, but I just bought an H20 through Massdrop. One person in their discussion of the unit approached Massdrop for warranty service and was told it had no warranty.
So this is a catch 22.  If I have a problem I need to work through Massdrop, but they refuse to do anything because the unit has no warranty. In a case such as this, how would I get my H20 fixed?
Can exceptions be made when dealing with a reseller who refuses to act as the intermediary?


----------



## BassDigger

mandrake50 said:


> I know this was posted a while back, but I just bought an H20 through Massdrop. One person in their discussion of the unit approached Massdrop for warranty service and was told it had no warranty.
> So this is a catch 22.  If I have a problem I need to work through Massdrop, but they refuse to do anything because the unit has no warranty. In a case such as this, how would I get my H20 fixed?
> Can exceptions be made when dealing with a reseller who refuses to act as the intermediary?



Disclaimer: I know nothing about 'Massdrop'.
I guess that it depends upon the agency in which Massdrop is acting? Is it acting as a seller/dealer, or does it simply act as the medium for the seller, like ebay?
If it's acting as the dealer/distributor, then I'm sure that it must have some obligations, such as the legal requirement to provide a guarantee. If they were denying their obligations, then surely this would need reporting to the relevant authority.


----------



## Zennheiser

BassDigger said:


> Disclaimer: I know nothing about 'Massdrop'.
> I guess that it depends upon the agency in which Massdrop is acting? Is it acting as a seller/dealer, or does it simply act as the medium for the seller, like ebay?
> If it's acting as the dealer/distributor, then I'm sure that it must have some obligations, such as the legal requirement to provide a guarantee. If they were denying their obligations, then surely this would need reporting to the relevant authority.


It comes with a warranty card that covers it for Two Years.  I presume (as you should) that Gustard is the warrantor.  This is a truly well-beaten flatlined equine, by now.  I do get that there are language barrier issues, and I also get that shipping is the real sticking point, but the warranty isn't the question.  It's about where you have to send it to get it worked on UNDER warranty.  And that's a fair question.  Gustard's rep (whom I think has posted in this thread, or at least I was led to believe that) would have to answer how that would work.  All that having been said, if you think it's going to have an issue, you're better off to look at something else.  Even though it'd be hard to find a Class A amp more overbuilt in terms of headroom than this one.


----------



## BassDigger

Zennheiser said:


> It comes with a warranty card that covers it for Two Years.  I presume (as you should) that Gustard is the warrantor.  This is a truly well-beaten flatlined equine, by now.  I do get that there are language barrier issues, and I also get that shipping is the real sticking point, but the warranty isn't the question.  It's about where you have to send it to get it worked on UNDER warranty.  And that's a fair question.  Gustard's rep (whom I think has posted in this thread, or at least I was led to believe that) would have to answer how that would work.  All that having been said, if you think it's going to have an issue, you're better off to look at something else.  Even though it'd be hard to find a Class A amp more overbuilt in terms of headroom than this one.



Well, I guess that my (rhetorical) question is..... If Massdrop is a 'dealer/distributor', then are they not obliged to be the point of return?
If not, then as you say, it's a matter for Gustard.

It would probably be a good idea for them to clarify this, either way!


----------



## Zennheiser

BassDigger said:


> Well, I guess that my (rhetorical) question is..... If Massdrop is a 'dealer/distributor', then are they not obliged to be the point of return?
> If not, then as you say, it's a matter for Gustard.
> 
> It would probably be a good idea for them to clarify this, either way!


Only they could answer that definitively.  But my instincts are as the purchaser/owner, it's your responsibility to get it to either them or Gustard and after that their responsibility takes over, including return shipping to you.  But that's just my take on it.  I think if you have concerns about it, your concern will likely be the one that carries the day.  At that purchase price, one might rationalize the purchase anyway.  I've never actually heard of one having an issue, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been one, somewhere, sometime.  Caveat Emptor is always in effect.  Mine's doing fine.  Listening to it now...


----------



## Alcophone

Zennheiser said:


> I've never actually heard of one having an issue, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been one, somewhere, sometime.



There's this unfortunate person: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h20-balanced-headphone-amp/talk/2062848


----------



## Zennheiser

I'm glad somebody posted a followup inquiry.  It sounds like User error to me, so I hope this person follows through, especially if it was a genuine failure/warranty issue.  If it had been me and it had NOT been because of a user error/cable/phone component eccentricity, I'd do my best to post every day for every dollar the silly thing cost and not stop on Sundays.  I'd like to find out what that the story was.  Strange it didn't happen in a way that mirrors a larger production run pattern.  Were there similar patterns (in numbers large enough for us to verify?) or issues with the H10 or any of their other products?  It's difficult to tweeze out the "Amazon effect" (competitors sowing disinformation in reviews just to blunt market impact) from issues that are more repeatable and verifiable.  Nobody (including me) wants to be the tip of that spear.  I was nervous enough pulling the trigger for it as it was.  The reason I posted early after having received it was how positive that entire process was.  I have a positive impression of Shenzhen that I have not had duplicated on AliExpress.  The "Caveat Emptor" factor seems to be a LOT higher there.  Just my personal experience.  Just as a matter of disclosure THAT transaction (my first on AliExpress) did NOT involve a GUSTARD product.  Live and learn...


----------



## Alcophone

mandrake50 said:


> I have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. One of it's claims to fame is that it does phase splitting on the SE input to drive the entire amp for balanced out. Has nayone heard or determined what the H20 does with SE in and Balanced out. I do have a few balanced DACs, but a few that are not that I want to use with it.



Today I played with that a little bit. I hooked up both Yggy's balanced out and its single ended out to the corresponding inputs on the Gustard H20. I switched back and forth between both inputs, first with the Ether C Flow connected to the balanced 4-pin XLR out, then with the Focal Listen connected to the single ended high impedance out.

What I found fascinating is that there was no volume change when switching between the inputs, unlike the Jotunheim, which is louder when using the balanced inputs (also using Yggy as the source).

It also all sounded very good to me. That wonderful sound stage was present in all four combinations as well. I would say that the transients were a tiny bit sharper and the bass a bit punchier using the balanced input, though. Took me a bit to notice, frequently I removed one of the cables to confirm I really had selected the input I wanted (there are no labels next to the input switch).

Though that slight difference has to be taken with a grain of salt since I was using $20/pair Schiit PYST RCA cables for the single ended connection, and $285/pair Lavricables Grand 20 Core Silver XLR cables for the balanced connection, which might actually explain the difference. This only occurred to me now, so I'll probably go back and repeat the comparison with $12/pair Monoprice Stage Right 16 awg XLR cables and $52/pair Pro Co XLR Y-cables (which I'd actually expect to perform worse than the Monoprice ones, if there's any difference at all). Once more I wished the Yggy had two pairs of balanced pairs of outputs, then I could just switch back and forth...

Now I don't know how this is implemented technically, but it's clear that the H20 is a great amp even for single ended DACs and/or headphones.


----------



## mandrake50

Quite a good read and my hoped for results as well. Thanks for doing this. I look forward to hearing any further impressions with more comparable cables.


----------



## Kaere

Better than a NFB1AMP?


----------



## Alcophone

Alcophone said:


> There's this unfortunate person: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h20-balanced-headphone-amp/talk/2062848





Zennheiser said:


> I'm glad somebody posted a followup inquiry.  It sounds like User error to me, so I hope this person follows through, especially if it was a genuine failure/warranty issue.  If it had been me and it had NOT been because of a user error/cable/phone component eccentricity, I'd do my best to post every day for every dollar the silly thing cost and not stop on Sundays.  I'd like to find out what that the story was.



He followed up:


> It turned out to be a cable connection issue at the source, and NOT the amp. The amp is working, and sounds great.
> (Which is a good thing, as MD's proposed remedy if it _had_ been the amp involved a refund and waiting for the next drop for a replacement - be aware that if you do get a bad unit, this seems to be MD's policy).


(https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h20-balanced-headphone-amp/talk/2100516)

Good news, I'd say!


----------



## lucianpescaru (Jun 29, 2018)

Swapped the 49720s with AD826, more bright and open. Bass quality did not suffer. Overall satisfied with the amp 4 pin XLR to Audeze LCD3F which are a bit warm.

edit: mid bass is more pronounced with the 49720. A good change for the Audeze LCD 2 or 3, but you do not want to do this on Beyer T1 or Sennheiser HD800(s).


----------



## lucianpescaru (Jul 24, 2018)

Also ordered Nichicon FM 6800uf/35V to replace the Nichicon KGs 3300uf/35v. Will let you know how it goes. If my measurements are right they will barely fit under the cover.

Edit: replaced the capacitors, I prefer FMs more laid back sound to KGs 'sizzle'. The FG's have about 5mm of clearance to the top panel so it's a safe mod. Of course they need break-in but so far I'm happy.


----------



## jupiterianvibe (Jun 30, 2018)

I've got this on the first drop at the beginning of year from massdrop. I've been skeptical while waiting for it to arrive: not much reviews, not a brand that I knew of, but I was very tired of switching cables for different sources. This had the single ended input for my Mojo and 2 balanced input sets for my AK240 and Pono so I could connect them all at once, jump between them with the flick of a switch and forget about cabling. When it arrived, it was quite the shock. I've never had this amount of bass coming out of my senn hd800 without EQing like hell causing narrow soundstage and other drawbacks. I also have senn hdva600, cavalli liquid carbon mk 2, schiit valhalla 2 and a few smaller amps that I switch between at leisure. Up to now, senn hdva600 was my undisputed king all along. I've never thought H20 could be better than the hdva600. I haven't been able to do a direct A-B comparison against hdva600 since hdva600 is in my home country while I've been using the liquid carbon where I am now due to smaller size and easier transportability and may have forgotten the hdva600 a bit. But still, I do not remember this much bass with hdva600 and H20 is clearly a big improvement in every aspect over liquid carbon.

I am quite happy with this and looking forward to roll the op-amps. Let's see.


----------



## rutter

I'm finding the HD800S to be a little bit too bright with the Schiit Jotunheim. Alcophone has told me that this amp is an upgrade to the Jot but I'm wondering whether it will be less bright than the Jot paired with the HD800S. It appears to be a particularly good fit with that headphone on the low-end?


----------



## wesxf

rutter said:


> I'm finding the HD800S to be a little bit too bright with the Schiit Jotunheim. Alcophone has told me that this amp is an upgrade to the Jot but I'm wondering whether it will be less bright than the Jot paired with the HD800S. It appears to be a particularly good fit with that headphone on the low-end?



I cannot speak to the HD800S as I used this amp with a HD800.  What I can say is that (like the poster above), I was really impressed by how much low end I got out of this amp compared to other setups I've used.  I find the HD800 kind of sterile in general but I got a lot of enjoyment out of listening to it through this amp.


----------



## BuddhaBruce

Can anyone compare this to the Questyle CMA400i?


----------



## rutter

Would this physically stack on top of a Gumby?


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> Would this physically stack on top of a Gumby?


Not really, 8.75" depth for the Gungnir, 10.2" for the H20. It probably works with the H20 hanging over in the front and back.


----------



## rutter

So what ended up being your full breakdown of how this is different from the Jotunheim? Apparently if I just keep the Jot on I could get it smooth enough with the HD800S but some of these comments about the H20 taking the bottom end further are alluring, along with a better soundstage and other pluses. I'm particularly concerned with brightness and harshness/piercing anywhere. Is the H20 an amplifier you could or should keep on all the time?


----------



## Alcophone (Jul 13, 2018)

H20 compared to Jotunheim:

Much bigger
More powerful
Makes clicky noises when changing the volume
Volume level harder to read because of the recessed indicator
Two balanced inputs instead of one
Also has two 3-pin XLR outputs in the front if your headphone cable needs them
Also has a low impedance output that I have no need for, didn't sound good compared to the high impedance output with the Focal Listen, less difference with the Ether C Flow*
High impedance single ended output and 4-pin XLR output both sound very good to me, with 4-pin XLR a tiny bit better; no huge difference for the Jotunheim either, it seems
Three gain settings that are very similar to each other instead of two that actually make a useful difference
Rollable opamps
Soundstage has depth with Yggdrasil and Ether C Flows instead of being flat, although even the Jotunheim with internal DAC has a great sound stage with the HD800 and HD800S, but maybe it gets even better
Basically the same volume between Yggdrasil singled ended and Yggdrasil balanced instead of balanced being considerable louder
Low end at least as good, very tight, rich, controlled
High end was harsh in the beginning, got better over time, and at least with the SS3602 opamps is super smooth, while I never had issues with how the Jotunheim sounded, never found it overly bright.
Tonal balance is very similar to me
I've never noticed dramatic changes with either amp after turning it down, though in some way to I'm unable to qualify, it usually take maybe 30 min. to become satisfied with the Jotunheim. I do turn on my H20 in the morning when I come into the office, but have never noticed any changes in sound or enjoyment regardless of how soon after I started listening.

* Edit: swapped the two headphones initially; the lower impedance Ether C Flow has less of an issue with the low impedance output, it seems


----------



## rutter (Jul 13, 2018)

Did you try the Jotunheim as an amp only with the Yggy? How do you know the soundstage difference isn't due to the DAC? I'm not seeing many serious upgrades in terms of sound from that list.


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> Did you try the Jotunheim as an amp only with the Yggy? How do you know the soundstage difference isn't due to the DAC? I'm not seeing many serious upgrades in terms of sound from that list.


Also with the Topping DX7s, and with the iFi micro iDSD. None of them achieve that sound stage with the Ether C Flow (when used as a DAC with the H20).


----------



## rutter

So better soundstage and better bass?


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> So better soundstage and better bass?


Sound stage: With the right DAC and headphones.
Bass: yes. Somewhat better. But the Jot is already good in that regard. Maybe the difference is bigger with higher impedance cans, no clue.


----------



## rutter

Hmmm... it's a lot of money without reputation or reviews. Those are the only two things that stood out to you?


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> Hmmm... it's a lot of money without reputation or reviews. Those are the only two things that stood out to you?


I would describe it as somewhat more controlled/refined sounding in general, but while 2x as expensive (or 2.35x with the SS3602s), it's not twice as good. The Jotunheim is simply a great value. That said, I don't know how much better it gets than the H20. I'd like to try more. More amps, more cans. That said, I'm very satisfied right now, which I wasn't with the Jotunheim.


----------



## rutter

Alcophone is saying that this amp is dicey in supporting easily driven headphones like the LCD-X. It almost sounds like the gain doesn't work. Anyone using this amp with an LCD-X or Hifiman Edition X?


----------



## Zennheiser (Jul 14, 2018)

rutter said:


> Alcophone is saying that this amp is dicey in supporting easily driven headphones like the LCD-X. It almost sounds like the gain doesn't work. Anyone using this amp with an LCD-X or Hifiman Edition X?


The Volume pot works exquisitely well.  The Gain level switch does also.  Neither of those can mitigate on behalf of user error.  When I first posted about this amp, I was worried about gain, but (please read the posts) there was a "hidden" EQ program that I'd forgotten was even on my machine (it was ran flat) and its gain was dialed down to about 50%.  That was user error on MY part.  Relax and enjoy it.  Just keep in mind that if you buy it with plans to find a way to be unhappy with it, you'll probably succeed, but it won't make it the amp's fault.  That can happen with any amp.  It's a bargain at its Massdrop or discount price.  I do NOT recommend getting it on Ali, though.  Wait for a Massdrop.


----------



## rutter (Jul 14, 2018)

What's the Massdrop or discount price? Where can I see how close we are to a drop? Any warranty issues, by the way?


----------



## Zennheiser

rutter said:


> What's the Massdrop or discount price?



I think it's running about $929.00 on Ali right now.  These days, with all the saber-rattling over trade wars, I'm not sure what the NEXT MD price will be.  If you do buy on Ali, I'd recommend using Shenzhen.  They treated me with respect and courtesy, and that's not always the case on that website.  The Gustard amp I trust, but who sells it is a different matter.  It comes with a warranty card, so that's not an issue, but unless the purchase goes flawlessly, I've discovered that THAT's when the sellers begin to show their quirks and deviations from "flat".  I think you get the same amp and warranty from anybody, but if you have to depend on the retailer you bought it from, that's where you need to be careful.  Personally, I'd wait for the next drop because I'd like to think it'd be less than that, but I wouldn't want to say what the price would be and create an unfair expectation.  Those of us who are "old" remember the last time this silliness started in the late '70's and the quality of GOOD gear plummeted (while prices went into hyperinflation territory) in between 1979 and 1985.  It didn't really recover until well into the '90's.  But by that time what turned into the "high end" (home and later even "car" audio) became nearly unaffordable.  That's making a comeback right now (w/$200K Turntables-no arm, no cartridge) as well.  YMMV.


----------



## rutter

When could I expect the next drop?


----------



## Rhamnetin

rutter said:


> When could I expect the next drop?



If you want a powerful balanced amp, honestly I'd just get *this*. Doesn't get much better and the price is so low for what you get (costs way more than this to build it).


----------



## Zennheiser (Jul 14, 2018)

Go and sign up.  I waited about six weeks.  The thing that annoyed me is I'd bought it elsewhere about 12 hours before the drop was announced (Out of nowhere. Literally).
That annoyed me more with respect to Massdrop than the other online seller. (But they couldn't know, could they?  I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question or not...) Nonetheless, in THAT ONE instance (I was new to that website) THAT seller credited me the difference.
But I wouldn't rely on that anymore.  These are troublesome times and in times like them, in my experience, the customer typically loses.  (Foreign or Domestic. It really doesn't matter anymore.  But communication is easier on the domestic front because of language barrier issues.)  We've gone from Caveat Venditor to Caveat Emptor in the space of a pretty short time period.  That used to be "in general" but now, with Globalization, it's slipperier than ever.  There are quality sellers everywhere, though.  Finding them when they're on the opposite side of the planet is the trick.  I had a good experience with Shenzhen.  I bought a few products from them over the years, first on eBay and then later directly from them.  But they're not under any Governmental restraint to extend any courtesy towards you.  My advice is to wait for the drop.  The quality of the amp is unimpeachable.  It's just finding the right opportunity.  But that's true for EVERY amp.


----------



## rutter (Jul 14, 2018)

I'll skip on the Beta. Tight on money and my quick google search made that seem a little questionable. Thanks for the thought though.

I've signed up for the drop but see no indicator of how close the drop is. Thought it would show how many more people need to request it. A weird way to drop, by the way. Can't you get a bunch of people who won't buy requesting just so it drops?

Here's the drop link for funsies: http://dro.ps/b/sef84OM5MtVO/l


----------



## Rhamnetin

rutter said:


> I'll skip on the Beta. Tight on money and my quick google search made that seem a little questionable. Thanks for the thought though.
> 
> I've signed up for the drop but see no indicator of how close the drop is. Thought it would show how many more people need to request it. A weird way to drop, by the way. Can't you get a bunch of people who won't buy requesting just so it drops?
> 
> Here's the drop link for funsies: http://dro.ps/b/sef84OM5MtVO/l



Just curious, what seemed questionable?


----------



## rutter (Jul 14, 2018)

https://www.headfonia.com/the-beta22-amplifier/



> The Beta22 has a good body in the sound, and bass presence is never lacking. What may be lacking, depending on the listener, is bass punch. A good friend of mine who’s actually not a basshead makes a remark about the bass punch when he first listened to the Beta22. He only said that “the bass was lacking”. I didn’t really get it at first, because bass presence is plenty and the Beta22 is very far from sounding thin, but eventually I realized that he meant bass punch.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



This is from eight years ago. There's also a mention of it being custom assembled or something and having variance in its characteristics.


----------



## Rhamnetin (Jul 14, 2018)

rutter said:


> https://www.headfonia.com/the-beta22-amplifier/
> 
> This is from eight years ago. There's also a mention of it being custom assembled or something and having variance in its characteristics.



It's a DIY only amp so there will be some variance, but that very review concludes with: "The Beta22 has the most life-like sound I’ve ever heard. The ambiance of the recordings is very convincing through the Beta22. Each instruments maintain a very real presence though a natural attack and decay pattern. Percussions, strings, pianos, wind instruments, all sound very life-like, with good snap, body and weight on each instruments in the music. The Beta22 remains the most life-like amplifier I’ve ever auditioned."

The only questionable performance characteristic raised in the review is that it doesn't seem to have the best imaging. Variance in Beta22's is mostly related to how many channels it has (2, 3, 4) when talking about any well-built Beta22. Any well built 4 channel (balanced) Beta22 is going to have a warmer, more relaxed sound. A characteristic shared by the Gustard H10 according to most, not sure about the H20 though which is totally different.

Is the Gustard H20 fully discrete unlike the H10?


----------



## rutter

Bass, imaging, treble. It's also an old review. For all I know the positive parts of the review may be correct, especially at the price. Strangely it has enormous, overkill power for headphones as well. I don't want to be taking chances right now, I need something really solid and this is pushing slightly out of my price range as well. I could well be missing out and someone else should jump on this, I don't know. That's one old amplifier though.


----------



## Rhamnetin (Jul 14, 2018)

rutter said:


> Bass, imaging, treble. It's also an old review. For all I know the positive parts of the review may be correct, especially at the price. Strangely it has enormous, overkill power for headphones as well. I don't want to be taking chances right now, I need something really solid and this is pushing slightly out of my price range as well. I could well be missing out and someone else should jump on this, I don't know. That's one old amplifier though.



Solid state amp design hasn't really improved since then. Some minor improvements from the same people who designed some of the best amps back then, like Kevin Gilmore and Nelson Pass, but many of the best measuring amp circuits date to back then. The Dynalo and Dynahi are even older, and remain the reference solid state headphone amps for all others to compare to, and I would say a masterclass balanced Dynalo (e.g. Pure BiPolar or GS-X Mk2) remains the best solid state amp for most headphones, with a balanced Dynahi being the best for the likes of the HE-6 and Susvara.

Nothing is strange about the Beta22's power. It's a speaker and headphone amp. Four amp boards, and two power supplies. The day an amp from a company like Gustard outperforms a well built balanced Beta22 is the day pigs will sprout wings and fly across the globe in mass.

I'll gladly eat crow on this if I'm wrong though, but isn't this only their 2nd amp, with the first being a Violectric V200 clone (the H10)? The H20 looks interesting, but with the H10 being so questionable (opamps in signal path, lifespan issues according to users), the H20 being fairly new and unknown made by an unknown designer unlike AMB Labs... the H20 is the much more questionable and risky amp, also being made entirely in China. The Beta22 is one of the most "tried and true" high end headphone amps you can get.

- EDIT: H20 isn't fully discrete either I see.


----------



## rutter

How big is that thing? Is it one, two, or three pieces? Straightforward connections? What's going to happen to my power bill?


----------



## rutter

Rhamnetin said:


> - EDIT: H20 isn't fully discrete either I see.



Meaning?


----------



## rutter

What about the Sennheiser HDVD 600? Apparently it's the same as the HDVD 800, which comes with a built-in DAC. I'm getting fed up.


----------



## Rhamnetin

rutter said:


> Meaning?



The use of only discrete transistors in the signal path, which can handle higher voltages, and perhaps other benefits I'm not certain of.


----------



## rutter

Practical significance?


----------



## mandrake50 (Jul 14, 2018)

rutter said:


> I'll skip on the Beta. Tight on money and my quick google search made that seem a little questionable. Thanks for the thought though.
> 
> I've signed up for the drop but see no indicator of how close the drop is. Thought it would show how many more people need to request it. A weird way to drop, by the way. Can't you get a bunch of people who won't buy requesting just so it drops?
> 
> Here's the drop link for funsies: http://dro.ps/b/sef84OM5MtVO/l


I don't know if there is actually a critical number of requestors needed. The do gauge interest by the requests and look to make buys. The amount of time it takes to set up the deal varies. I think there have been three drops in the last 6 or so months. But that is no guarantee. I requested it twice after the first one  before I actually bought one. I hated to spend the money, as I have sworn to reduce the money spent on headphone related gear. But I like the amp very much.


----------



## rutter

Any longevity concerns given the H10 predecessor? Do you guys know whether it's recommended to keep the amp constantly on or not?


----------



## mandrake50

Rhamnetin said:


> Solid state amp design hasn't really improved since then. Some minor improvements from the same people who designed some of the best amps back then, like Kevin Gilmore and Nelson Pass, but many of the best measuring amp circuits date to back then. The Dynalo and Dynahi are even older, and remain the reference solid state headphone amps for all others to compare to, and I would say a masterclass balanced Dynalo (e.g. Pure BiPolar or GS-X Mk2) remains the best solid state amp for most headphones, with a balanced Dynahi being the best for the likes of the HE-6 and Susvara.
> 
> Nothing is strange about the Beta22's power. It's a speaker and headphone amp. Four amp boards, and two power supplies. The day an amp from a company like Gustard outperforms a well built balanced Beta22 is the day pigs will sprout wings and fly across the globe in mass.
> 
> ...



But we know nothing about the one for sale. How old, does it have the dual power supplies, part selection, who built it. Too risky for me. Besides, I already have the H20 and am quite happy with it. However, if this offering is so great, why don't you buy it?
Just curious.


----------



## Rhamnetin

mandrake50 said:


> But we know nothing about the one for sale. How old, does it have the dual power supplies, part selection, who built it. Too risky for me. Besides, I already have the H20 and am quite happy with it. However, if this offering is so great, why don't you buy it?
> Just curious.



True, those are valid questions that should be taken to the owner. I don't jump on it because I don't need it. I have an end game solid state amp already, one that's better for me since I don't currently have a balanced source.


----------



## mandrake50

What are you using now?


----------



## Rhamnetin

mandrake50 said:


> What are you using now?



It's in my signature and profile, the Mjolnir Audio Pure BiPolar.


----------



## mandrake50

Sounds nice.. but the descriptions I found say balanced in and out only...?
Thought that was the problem with the Beta for you.


----------



## Rhamnetin

mandrake50 said:


> Sounds nice.. but the descriptions I found say balanced in and out only...?
> Thought that was the problem with the Beta for you.



It uses super symmetry inputs to convert SE in to balanced out, the best method I know of to convert SE signal to balanced too, no use of opamps or anything like that. 

When getting a balanced amp (so this applies to the H20 too), it's always good to figure out how the amp handles a single ended input. Not sure what the H20 does.


----------



## mandrake50 (Jul 14, 2018)

If I am not mistaken, those are the two op amps that people like to swap out. SE Input...

I bought the Sparko  opamps. I haven't tried them yet as I figured it shouldn't make any differences as I have been using it with the balanced inputs.


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> Alcophone is saying that this amp is dicey in supporting easily driven headphones like the LCD-X. It almost sounds like the gain doesn't work. Anyone using this amp with an LCD-X or Hifiman Edition X?


lol, I was merely pointing out that with my Ether C Flow, I'm setting the volume really low for a good volume, meaning I already don't have that many volume steps available (though still enough). The LCD-X is even more efficient, so you might not be able to adjust the volume as freely as you want, at least using the balanced output. Emphasis on "might".


----------



## Alcophone

rutter said:


> I'll skip on the Beta. Tight on money and my quick google search made that seem a little questionable. Thanks for the thought though.
> 
> I've signed up for the drop but see no indicator of how close the drop is. Thought it would show how many more people need to request it. A weird way to drop, by the way. Can't you get a bunch of people who won't buy requesting just so it drops?
> 
> Here's the drop link for funsies: http://dro.ps/b/sef84OM5MtVO/l


People can request a drop to indicate interest, but there's never a guarantee that it happens again. Massdrop has to approach the partners, everyone has to agree to do it, and then it either happens or doesn't.

Last two or three drops were $799.99 + sales tax with free shipping, three required to join in order for it to go through. Interest has been low, so even if this drops again, you might not find enough others.

But the discount basically buys you two Sparkos SS3602s for $70s if you still get the new customer discount.


----------



## rutter

I went ahead and got a Sennheiser HDVA 600.


----------



## Alcophone

To get an idea of the clicky noises when turning the volume knob, take a look at this video at ~7 minutes in:



This is the Schiit Freya, which has 128 steps, so it sounds more hectic than the Gustard H20 with its 64 steps, but you get the idea. I didn't even notice it for the first few days while wearing headphones, until someone on Massdrop mentioned it.


----------



## mandrake50

rutter said:


> Any longevity concerns given the H10 predecessor? Do you guys know whether it's recommended to keep the amp constantly on or not?


 I have had my H10 for, what 4 years? It is still doing fine. I have other amps, so it has not been my every day amp, But it has lots of hours on it. I was active on the H10 thread for a long time. It is pretty dead now. But there were few issues reported.
I don't leave anything turned on 24/7. Maybe because I don't listen often enough, but I like to think it is not required. Some equipment seems to be very sensitive to being thermally stabilized. I have never found amplifiers to be in that group.
Some DACS, maybe, but even then any that I have used do not change after an hour or so of being on. I do not leave my H20 on all of the time. I really do not hear much difference at all between initial power on and 6 hours later. Beyond that, I don't care.
I refuse to pay for long time power use to maybe achieve a couple of percent difference in sound. I look at this like many things related as "required" on HF. Mostly imagined urban legend passed down from those that claim to be experts to those who know no better.


----------



## mandrake50

rutter said:


> Alcophone is saying that this amp is dicey in supporting easily driven headphones like the LCD-X. It almost sounds like the gain doesn't work. Anyone using this amp with an LCD-X or Hifiman Edition X?


I use it with the He1K and have no issues with having adequate volume control range. Same with the He560, He400i, K7XX... Which is about all I have used it with. Much of this has to do with the drive level it is getting. Reduce that and you have more travel before you get to the desired listening level. Specs say it is no more sensitive than what I generally see in amps. I do admit that the gain switch seems to have less effect than many. But I tend to always use low gain when possible... which it almost always is adequate.... I don't fixate on where the volume control sits when I get to my preferred listening level. As long as I can get it low enough and high enough to suit me with a given headphone. So far, so good with the H20.
So I don't know what Alcophone is doing differently than what I am doing, but I am curious.


----------



## Alcophone (Jul 15, 2018)

mandrake50 said:


> I don't know what Alcophone is doing differently than what I am doing, but I am curious.


@rutter: Please edit your post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say, people are clearly getting the wrong impression.
@mandrake50: Please see this post:


Alcophone said:


> I was merely pointing out that with my Ether C Flow, I'm setting the volume really low for a good volume, meaning I already don't have that many volume steps available (though still enough). The LCD-X is even more efficient, so you might not be able to adjust the volume as freely as you want, at least using the balanced output. Emphasis on "might".






mandrake50 said:


> I use it with the He1K and have no issues with having adequate volume control range. Same with the He560, He400i, K7XX...


Are you using all of them with either the 4-pin XLR output or the two 3-pin XLR outputs? The balanced outputs are the only ones I'm concerned about. I have used the Focal Listen on the single ended outputs (though only briefly) and haven't noticed any issues, despite it being substantially more sensitive than all of your headphones.
The most sensitive of yours is the AKG K7xx, and it is slightly more sensitive than the LCD-X, so that would be really helpful for @rutter's case. If you're driving them balanced and never feel like you have to choose between the volume being either too high or too low, that's a good indicator that he won't have that issue, either. Assuming your DAC is feeding a usual signal level - what DAC are you using? How did you connect it to the H20?

From least sensitive to most:
HiFiMan HE1000: 35 ohms, 90 dB
HiFiMan HE560: 45 ohms, 90 dB
HiFiMan HE400i: 35 ohms, 93 dB
MrSpeakers Ether C Flow: 23 ohms, 96 dB
Audeze LCD-X: 20 ohms, 103 dB
AKG K7xx: 62 ohms, 105 dB
Focal Listen: 32 ohms, 122 dB



mandrake50 said:


> Much of this has to do with the drive level it is getting. Reduce that and you have more travel before you get to the desired listening level.


What do you mean by drive level? Voltage level of the DAC, or gain setting? The former is tricky if you want to feed your DAC a bitperfect signal, otherwise you could adjust the volume in your player, true.



mandrake50 said:


> Specs say it is no more sensitive than what I generally see in amps.


Sorry, what does it mean for an amp to be sensitive?



mandrake50 said:


> I do admit that the gain switch seems to have less effect than many. But I tend to always use low gain when possible... which it almost always is adequate....


The gain settings help a little, but yeah, as you say, not a whole lot. I am using the high gain mode, because I have heard that often low gain means additional attenuation, so high gain is possible the "purer" mode, and since the volume range isn't that different either way, I might as well.



mandrake50 said:


> I don't fixate on where the volume control sits when I get to my preferred listening level. As long as I can get it low enough and high enough to suit me with a given headphone. So far, so good with the H20.


Same here! I didn't even notice it has a relay stepped attenuator for the first few days, the volume levels are certainly fine enough for me. 64 steps didn't seem like much to me given the power this amp has, but in my case it works out well enough. I'm just not sure how far away from too little adjustability I am.


----------



## mandrake50

Alcophone said:


> @rutter: Please edit your post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say, people are clearly getting the wrong impression.
> @mandrake50: Please see this post:
> 
> 
> ...



I am using the 4 pin balanced out. I currently am driving it with the unbalanced out from a Burson CV2+. But fired up the balanced out from a Pulse Se. I have only had it a couple of weeks BTW. Still more playing to be done
Sensitive meaning the input level required for o DB. Most are 2 volts, some less. Everything I have used it wit has variable outputs. No digital attenuation required. But this bit perfect thing ... Foobar... for instance as with many devices using digital volume controls uses 64 bits for attenuation. Meaning you can reduce output by around 18 DB and never touch a 24 bit files significant bits. So it depends on what you are playing with I guess. In any case, using the ESS DAC volume line out control on the CV2 maxed out, using Foobar as a source with no attenuation and balanced output form the H20, I have not had a situation where I could not adjust the volume adequately. I have not run into channel imbalance (as one should not with the H20 volume control system) nor needed to run the control over about 12 O" Clock on the H20. In other words, totally adequate travel from the H20 volume control.
I don't think it should be a problem with the LCD 4. No idea with the hyper efficient Listen (having never listened  to them) . Nor have I tried using any of my more efficient IEMs. But if one does not use any of the latter, I just don't think there is an issue.

So yeah, somebody with some combination of gear "might" have a problem. But I doubt it.

Thanks for taking the time to do the elaborate reply.


----------



## Alcophone

mandrake50 said:


> I am using the 4 pin balanced out. I currently am driving it with the unbalanced out from a Burson CV2+. But fired up the balanced out from a Pulse Se. I have only had it a couple of weeks BTW. Still more playing to be done
> Sensitive meaning the input level required for o DB. Most are 2 volts, some less. Everything I have used it wit has variable outputs. No digital attenuation required. But this bit perfect thing ... Foobar... for instance as with many devices using digital volume controls uses 64 bits for attenuation. Meaning you can reduce output by around 18 DB and never touch a 24 bit files significant bits. So it depends on what you are playing with I guess. In any case, using the ESS DAC volume line out control on the CV2 maxed out, using Foobar as a source with no attenuation and balanced output form the H20, I have not had a situation where I could not adjust the volume adequately. I have not run into channel imbalance (as one should not with the H20 volume control system) nor needed to run the control over about 12 O" Clock on the H20. In other words, totally adequate travel from the H20 volume control.
> I don't think it should be a problem with the LCD 4. No idea with the hyper efficient Listen (having never listened  to them) . Nor have I tried using any of my more efficient IEMs. But if one does not use any of the latter, I just don't think there is an issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that sounds good for his case. LCD-X, BTW  The LCD-4 with 200 ohms and 97 dB would definitely work well.
The Focal Listen aren't balanced anyway, which means you don't get the full power from the H20, and so you have enough volume levels for them, too.
Same here, channel balance is flawless even at the lowest volume setting, as expected.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

mandrake50 said:


> I have had my H10 for, what 4 years? It is still doing fine. I have other amps, so it has not been my every day amp, But it has lots of hours on it. I was active on the H10 thread for a long time. It is pretty dead now. But there were few issues reported.
> I don't leave anything turned on 24/7. Maybe because I don't listen often enough, but I like to think it is not required. Some equipment seems to be very sensitive to being thermally stabilized. I have never found amplifiers to be in that group.
> Some DACS, maybe, but even then any that I have used do not change after an hour or so of being on. I do not leave my H20 on all of the time. I really do not hear much difference at all between initial power on and 6 hours later. Beyond that, I don't care.
> I refuse to pay for long time power use to maybe achieve a couple of percent difference in sound. I look at this like many things related as "required" on HF. Mostly imagined urban legend passed down from those that claim to be experts to those who know no better.



I miss the H10 sometimes. I'm surprised the amp was discontinued. 
How would you differentiate the H20 from the H10? I've gone a different route, but I'm still interested in reading.


----------



## mandrake50

I haven't done a real comparison as in A-B volume matched. I may grab the H10 one day and do that. In addition I haven't had the H10 in the system for quite awhile. If/when I get to it, I will report back here.
The last listening I did with the H10 was after installing the Burson Vivid opamps in both the single and dual positions. This makes a big difference. Best way to do a comparison would be to find and install the stock opamps.


----------



## rutter

Does this amp make the HD800S sound musical, kind of like the LCD-X? Female vocals is one area where I think the 800S really lags behind the LCD-X.


----------



## rutter

How many people need to request something in order for it to drop? What am I supposed to make of 48 people currently requesting the amp?

Again, how exactly does this amp make the 800S sound? With the Jotunheim the sound is a little dry and I feel discomfort and ringing in my ears. With an Auralic Taurus MKII the sound is rather dry and lifeless. I don't think my ears will be ringing as much (my ear drums don't vibrate when I take the headphones off, I don't know whether to lol or go bungee jumping without the cord at this point) but clearly this ain't the combo. I'll opamp "roll" if I have to to keep for instance treble in check, but first I need to be able to get this amp. The Chinese website is an option but there's an extra $130 to pay in comparison to the assumed $800 Massdrop price.

Anyone compared this to iFi's Pro Can or whatever it's called?


----------



## rutter

The inactivity in this thread is pretty discouraging. I thought this is supposed to be a terrific amp? Anyone have experience with it and a Taurus MKII?


----------



## Zennheiser

It's Twenty pages long, with a lot of literate, cogent commentary.  I LOVE mine.  I heard an H10 and liked that so I took a chance and it's been everything I was looking for and more.  Folks that are looking for a reason not to buy one will eventually find one.
But there's nothing wrong with mine, and I'm completely happy with my purchase.  BTW, I'd say $600.00 is a little low for a new H20.  Remember, that stuff's being tariffed now,


----------



## Rhamnetin

rutter said:


> Does this amp make the HD800S sound musical, kind of like the LCD-X? Female vocals is one area where I think the 800S really lags behind the LCD-X.



No amp will turn an HD 800 S into an LCD-X


----------



## rutter

Zennheiser said:


> Folks that are looking for a reason not to buy one will eventually find one.



This has nothing to do with anything. Someone had also mentioned how dead the thread of the previous amp is, which gives cause for concern. If these amps are so great why are their threads so inactive? Any of you actually compared this amp to other good amps you can get used in this price range, Taurus MKII in particular? Or is this another one of these this is so great because I haven't heard the direct competition things.


----------



## Zennheiser

Correct.  And depending on your priorities, that can be a GOOD thing.  Or not.  But ACCURACY is what you should expect.  What you push with the amp is your choice to make.  I have TOO MANY cans and this is how that happened.  But I'm at a place where I can be happy without really feeling "pinched" for something else.  Most things become attainable, if not immediately, then with time.   I like the LCD-X but it's not my ideal set of phones.  Everybody hears differently.  We're the least linear (and contrastingly, most intuitively sensitive) test instrument in the chain.  There is no perfect amp or set of headphones.  They and we are all works in progress.


----------



## Zennheiser

It has everything to do with everything that specifically applies to your post.  I stand by my original assertions.  If you're trying to foment controversy, then have at it.  I've given my first-person testimony with respect to my NEW (not used and NOT modified) H20.
If you have any doubt, then I think you have your own answer and want somebody to throw shade at it to reinforce your own trepidation.
If I were in your position with that particular insecurity, I'd pass.

But I'll never sell MINE.  Good luck!


----------



## jazzk

i too love my h20. i've had mine now for about 6 months and i mainly listen to my senn 800's but also enjoy my other cans with this amp.  prior to this i used and oppo ha1 and  a gustard h10. the h20 is miles above the oppo ( for the most part the h10 is more musical than the oppo) it can drive all my headphones with ease with gobs of power. unless you step up to the thousands of $ price range for an amp i dont think u will do much better bang for buck. i,ve been able to listen to some very nice high end hp amps and they sound awesome but the price difference for that small improvement in sound quality i'll stick with my gustard and be happy.   side note i just got a LKS 004 DAC   WOW   what an eye opening experience that thing has brought me!!!!!!


----------



## sahmen

If anyone has had the opportunity to compare the H20's sq performance  to that of the Violectric V281 , and is willing to share their impressions, I'd be very grateful.  Thanks.​


----------



## jazzk

i wish i could help you with the violectric comparison but unfortunatly i've never owned one. the h10 was supposedly a violectric clone.  my h10 has been relegated to my bedroom setup since i got the h20 .  i would still prefer to listen to either of the gustards instead of my oppo ha1 for whatever that is worth.  i can say that both units have been troublefree  and have worked flawlessly.


----------



## gulakpii

I had my H20 for 8 months now!  
I have been using tube head-amps for the last 12 years and never thought of using a SS head amp, for (I thought) I like the tube sound.
My friends tried hard to convince me and I thought I gave it a try, and now I can say it is the best purchase I've even made with my audio stuff!  It sounds wonderful with my HD650 and the K712.


----------



## Icekuma

hi
Anyone has done comparison of this with Cayin iHA-6? I am about to pull trigger on Cayin but swayed with what I read in this forum. Granted H20 is almost 2x Cayin but I think that's okay.

I did listen to Cayin and was impressed with its transparency and powerful punch and clarity, using HD800s. 

what will be recommended DAC to go with this? 

My use-case is will use SONY WM1A Balance -> XLR with ATH-AD2000, Sony MDR-Z7, and going to purchase HD800s or HEXv2. 

I cannot find place for audition for Gustard here (yet). 

Thanks.


----------



## Zennheiser

I haven't seen (or more importantly heard) a Cayin who's Class A output characteristics are as robust as the H-20's.  
I bought the H-20 as a standard bearer for those two design parameters (High power/ Class A/SS) and as I'm not a "tube" guy (I like SS that can emulate clean tube "tonal balance" but I'm just not hypnotized by either Thermionics as operating principle or its attendant pricing-I think most of that has sourced from Guitar Amp culture, whose priorities are very different than High Fidelity's) it was pretty much dead on target for me.

It's a BIG (physically and output-wise) amp.

I couldn't be more pleased with mine.

Good luck!


----------



## Icekuma (Aug 28, 2018)

Hi @Zennheiser thanks for responding. Date I ask if you have listened to both?

I was pretty pleased with what I heard from iha-6! Reckon from your response, I would be thrilled with Gustard H20? In think with almost double the price, H20 better do

When you say "as robust" could you please elaborate more if possible?

Do you think I can connect Sony WM1A balanced to XLR-3-pin input? So I don't need to buy DAC?

@soumya.banerjee  you said Cayin iHA-6 left you wanting. Is this this in comparison with Gustard H20? Was this direct A/B with same source, DAC and headphone? Was that using SE or balanced?  Thanks

Thanks



Zennheiser said:


> I haven't seen (or more importantly heard) a Cayin who's Class A output characteristics are as robust as the H-20's.
> I bought the H-20 as a standard bearer for those two design parameters (High power/ Class A/SS) and as I'm not a "tube" guy (I like SS that can emulate clean tube "tonal balance" but I'm just not hypnotized by either Thermionics as operating principle or its attendant pricing-I think most of that has sourced from Guitar Amp culture, whose priorities are very different than High Fidelity's) it was pretty much dead on target for me.
> 
> It's a BIG (physically and output-wise) amp.
> ...


----------



## Zennheiser (Aug 28, 2018)

Icekuma said:


> Hi @Zennheiser thanks for responding. Date I ask if you have listened to both?
> 
> I was pretty pleased with what I heard from iha-6! Reckon from your response, I would be thrilled with Gustard H20? In think with almost double the price, H20 better do
> 
> ...



I've heard numerous Cayin's and none of them knocked me out.  But that doesn't mean I heard your "heartthrob" or even if there's enough consistency between one production run and another to say it has a consistently reproducible sound, and that's before all the tweakers get hold of them.
You should visit a can fest/headphone meet somewhere before you make a final choice. You aren't committed to having a D/A with this amp.  You can run it from any High-Level analog source.  You can run it from the output of a Turntable IF you buy a phono preamp (or use a 'table with one automatically built into it, even though I don't think very many of those are held in high regard).  Good luck!


----------



## Zennheiser (Aug 28, 2018)

I went through the (not small) number of amps in the last local meet and saw and heard most of the names at the top of this group's recommendations.  I still suggest that the OP does the same thing.  There might be an H20 there, but it's even more likely an H10 would be there.  (That was what I heard at the last meet.)
My choices were the Schiit Lyr 2 and the H20.  But I didn't just pull the trigger without trying to get some first-hand experience with most of the name brands currently being discussed.  The Gustard is a sleeper and I'm perfectly happy for it to remain one.  I don't see anything wrong with recommending being picky with one's choices.  I hope the OP seeks out the "lesser" advertised alternatives because that's where "sleeper" products will reside.  It was always thus, btw...  : - )


----------



## Alcophone

Is anyone here into speakers AND headphones?


----------



## Zennheiser (Aug 28, 2018)

One of the attractive things about both the Lyr 2 and the H20 is they can (but it's not encouraged, at least from what I read) drive reasonably efficient speakers.  But I haven't tried it.  I've got a BUNCH of self-restored Pioneer '70's receivers and Integrated amplifiers and they pretty much fill the bill for a "dual purpose" system.  They are famously real-estate "hogs" though.  Folks used to compact Headphone amps might find it hard to integrate them into their desk system.  But I've seen it done, obviously, those setups used passive speakers.

As for the speaker end of the equation:  My first speakers were a smaller version of the famous Bart Locanthi designed "upgraded version" of his L-series studio monitors.  Pioneer made them and the "anchor" speaker was the HPM (equivalent to the JBL-L)100.  I started out with a set of 40's because it was all I could afford at the time.  They're very efficient and good with a broad variety of Musical Idioms.  They're not as accurate as a planar magnetic or electrostats, but they leave more "meat on the bones" of the Music and sometimes that can be preferable.  Just like Cans and Amps, each person's ears are the big variable.  No two ears (let alone people) hear the same thing the same way.


----------



## AxelCloris

We've removed some posts that were getting too personal from the thread. Please keep the discussion within the Posting Guidelines. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Zennheiser

Thank you.


----------



## Icekuma

Hi @Zennheiser Not sure if who your OP is referring to. I thought since you had both product and seems knowledgeable. 

However, I have not prior experience with Gustard, never seen it in real, let alone listen to it. therefore I thought i'd relies on the forum to get some impression. 

Not that I am aware there's opportunity to do audition in the audio meet up or similar where I live (Singapore). 

Anyway, appreciate your response so far. 



Zennheiser said:


> I went through the (not small) number of amps in the last local meet and saw and heard most of the names at the top of this group's recommendations.  I still suggest that the OP does the same thing.  There might be an H20 there, but it's even more likely an H10 would be there.  (That was what I heard at the last meet.)
> My choices were the Schiit Lyr 2 and the H20.  But I didn't just pull the trigger without trying to get some first-hand experience with most of the name brands currently being discussed.  The Gustard is a sleeper and I'm perfectly happy for it to remain one.  I don't see anything wrong with recommending being picky with one's choices.  I hope the OP seeks out the "lesser" advertised alternatives because that's where "sleeper" products will reside.  It was always thus, btw...  : - )


----------



## Zennheiser (Aug 29, 2018)

If one's discretionary income comes as hard as mine did/does, being in this hobby makes you picky if even you didn't start out that way.

I unhesitatingly recommend the Gustard.  I went through what you might be going through with one of my favorite (now) vintage brands back in the mid-to-late '80's.

Where I live you couldn't lay hands on anything, ANYWHERE with respect to hearing any of that company's gear "in person" before buying it.  (If it was their TOTL stuff.)

They had dominated the marketplace in the late '70's and early '80's and was retailed everywhere, but their dealer network collapsed.

If you even took the chance to order it over the mail or phone, you'd hear that it was back ordered and there was no way to know when it would be back in stock.

That straightened itself out by the '90's and they ran a "premium quality" high-end subsidiary-brand that pulled them back out of obscurity.  That ran successfully until their having been gobbled up by a corporate shark a few years ago.

If you lived in an urban center you might not have noticed it, but if you (in my case, grew up) were from a suburban area, a lot of that gear was never available even if there was a dealer sign in a local store's window.  That was a very bad time for Electronics dealers where I live.  Particularly with respect to that brand.

(I sold Electronics as a day-gig and realized that that job was just a shadow of its former self, at least when compared to the heyday of Home Audio gear of just a few years before.)

Hang in there and keep looking.  I feel fairly certain it's available where you live, even if it's not "commonplace" yet.  Good luck!


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Icekuma said:


> @soumya.banerjee  you said Cayin iHA-6 left you wanting. Is this this in comparison with Gustard H20? Was this direct A/B with same source, DAC and headphone? Was that using SE or balanced?  Thanks
> 
> Thanks



Hi,

Yes I have listened to Cayin iHA 6 numerous times now, most recently at What HiFi show in Bangalore.
I will not talk about its limitations in SE output department as it's a known case - that it has a high OI.

My bigger gripe is its tonality. It has a cold tonality and unless you feed it with some tube preamp it sounds very very sterile. There is a reason Cayin is selling iDAC 6 and iHA 6 as a stack concept. Because iDAC 6 has a tube stage which kind of compensates for this. Still no where near the H20 tonality (specially with Sparkos) and its speed, airiness etc.
Its SE output is probably ok for high impedance dynamic drivers but absolutely crap for planars which need low OI and high current.

One more thing, there is a substantial noise floor as heard from sensitive IEMs like Kaiser Encore. One of my friends who has this amp posed this question to Andy Kong and his response was to check for nearby running ACs, or other heavy electrical equipment. I respect Andy and his team, but honestly at this price point I expect much better PSU regulation and noise suppression.


----------



## alphanumerix1

So the h20 is significantly more capable. Interesting.


----------



## Icekuma

soumya.banerjee said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes I have listened to Cayin iHA 6 numerous times now, most recently at What HiFi show in Bangalore.
> I will not talk about its limitations in SE output department as it's a known case - that it has a high OI.
> ...



Thanks for responding Soumnya. Interesting input. so there's Gustard agent in India? How long have you have it? I am in similar situation here in Singapore that anything goes wrong, need to ship it back to China on my own expense.

Cheers.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

Icekuma said:


> Thanks for responding Soumnya. Interesting input. so there's Gustard agent in India? How long have you have it? I am in similar situation here in Singapore that anything goes wrong, need to ship it back to China on my own expense.
> 
> Cheers.


Unfortunately no. I just ordered from Shenzhen. I have had it since Feb this year.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

alphanumerix1 said:


> So the h20 is significantly more capable. Interesting.



Indeed, I was listening to Ananda with SE output of iHA6 and that high OI was holding it back in terms of speed and resolution those planars are capable of. Unless you are severely limited by budget and have headphones with XLR termination or you are going to use it with iDAC 6 and some high impedance dynamic driver, I will strongly advise to spend a bit more and get an H20.


----------



## wadi

soumya.banerjee said:


> Indeed, I was listening to Ananda with SE output of iHA6 and that high OI was holding it back in terms of speed and resolution those planars are capable of. Unless you are severely limited by budget and have headphones with XLR termination or you are going to use it with iDAC 6 and some high impedance dynamic driver, I will strongly advise to spend a bit more and get an H20.



Planars don't care about output impedance.


----------



## Icekuma

soumya.banerjee said:


> Unfortunately no. I just ordered from Shenzhen. I have had it since Feb this year.


Thanks. Great input.


----------



## soumya.banerjee

wadi said:


> Planars don't care about output impedance.



Planars don't exhibit impedance variation with frequency is true because they are pure resistive loads. Dynamic drivers are highly reactive loads. This trait is responsible for perceived variation in frequency response and why dynamic drivers can have myriad of frequency responses based on amplifier's OI.

However, electrical damping is another thing and also for maximum power transfer to the load the OI of source should ideally be 0. I'm not complaining that Ananda had any unevenness in FR part from iHA6. I'm saying it sounded slow and bloated.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Thinking about picking one up 11.11 sales


----------



## Alcophone

alphanumerix1 said:


> Thinking about picking one up 11.11 sales


If you only need single ended inputs and outputs, I recommend considering the Burson Fun with Sparkos SS3601s. I struggle to hear a difference between that and the H20 with Sparkos SS3602s. The stock opamps are meh, though. And my review unit had an occasional buzz that went away with power cycling or re-inserting headphones.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Alcophone said:


> If you only need single ended inputs and outputs, I recommend considering the Burson Fun with Sparkos SS3601s. I struggle to hear a difference between that and the H20 with Sparkos SS3602s. The stock opamps are meh, though. And my review unit had an occasional buzz that went away with power cycling or re-inserting headphones.



Wait, Are you saying the burson fun is at the same level as the h20?


----------



## Alcophone

alphanumerix1 said:


> Wait, Are you saying the burson fun is at the same level as the h20?


With stock opamps in both, the H20 crushes it.
With Sparkos SS3601s (2x $40) in the Fun and SS3602s (2x $80) in the H20, and using the MrSpeakers Ether (C) Flow, I struggle to hear a difference, yes. Might be different with other headphones, I don't have any high impedance cans.
I know, I can hardly believe it, either.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Alcophone said:


> With stock opamps in both, the H20 crushes it.
> With Sparkos SS3601s (2x $40) in the Fun and SS3602s (2x $80) in the H20, and using the MrSpeakers Ether (C) Flow, I struggle to hear a difference, yes. Might be different with other headphones, I don't have any high impedance cans.
> I know, I can hardly believe it, either.



I was under the impression the vivid and classic op amps were superior then the sparkos, have you tried those?


----------



## Alcophone

alphanumerix1 said:


> I was under the impression the vivid and classic op amps were superior then the sparkos, have you tried those?


Not yet, but I'm supposed to get sent the Classic, for either the Bang, the Fun, or both (this is part of a review tour).
Where have you seen a comparison?


----------



## Alcophone

Now on Amazon for $839 (instead of $929.99) from Shenzen Audio: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075QD14YQ/


----------



## spacequeen7

Subbed 
Should be getting mine before Christmas,$834 was no-brainer


----------



## Zennheiser

I think that's pretty close to what I paid for mine.  I haven't regretted it for a moment since.  Wonderful amp...


----------



## jazzk

Ditto  to Zennheiser!!! i've had my h20 for about 6 months and could'nt be happier. I put the sparkos in mine and i felt it made an improvement.   I have the burson op amps in my h10 and they too were an improvement over stock


----------



## spacequeen7

Good to hear that ,I sold my H10 the other day along with 2 sets of V6 Burson,I'm still debating between Sparkos SS3602 and Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha


----------



## spacequeen7

Burn in time  ,this amp is all I have hoped for and more ,build quality is outstanding


----------



## Alcophone

spacequeen7 said:


> Burn in time  ,this amp is all I have hoped for and more ,build quality is outstanding


Shiny! Can you provide more details about this beastly looking opamp and the adapters you're using? Looks like Sonic Imagery Labs has several variants of it and the price isn't shown.


----------



## spacequeen7

Alcophone said:


> Shiny! Can you provide more details about this beastly looking opamp and the adapters you're using? Looks like Sonic Imagery Labs has several variants of it and the price isn't shown.


2x Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha  and two "RA extensions "
Cheers


----------



## zmhaha (Dec 8, 2018)

Got this amp a few days ago. Oh boy, based on memory, its a notch, if not two, above the Violetric V281, or all other amps I had (all solid states). Still on the stock opamp at this moment but have 2x sparkos on order.

Discard the prices, features, form factors, aesthetics, and build qualities, talking only about the overall sound quality only, all amps I had (check out sig) did not WOW me in anyway, they were all good enough but just not impressive in anyway. H20 is for sure the first one that does it.

I got nothing to complain about the sound. For the functionalities:
1: all outputs can be used at the same time, including the preout. I wish theres a on/off switch on the preouts and headphone jacks.  
2: the "L" 1/4 jack supposbly more suitable for low imped/high sensitivity cans or even IEMs, but I find it sound very noticeably worse than the "H" 1/4 jack or the XLR, at least for my Andromeda S and Solaris. 
3: The 'Gain' switch is confusing. If I remember it correct from past reading, its more of a tonal adjustment in treble, mids, and bass, rather than the usual 'gain' we talk about.  So its like an hardware EQ.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Dec 8, 2018)

Here is my take on it
-Both 1/4 headphone outputs are intended for Low-impedance (under 50 ohm) headphones /IEM and the Balanced for the "big dogs"
 16 ohm IEMs worked perfect using 1/4 "H" output and my sensitive HD58x ( 170 ohm) seems to do just fine using 1/4 "L" jack
Harder to drive LCD-2's required balanced output ,don't know if this is placebo effect or what but dual 3pin balanced sounds better then 4pin ?
"Gain" switch should be only used with 1/4 outputs for balanced it should be at "normal" position only ,I think there is like 15 seconds delay when switching from Low to High   

Burn-in is real...I was having some imbalanced issues at the begging so I left the unit running for 3 days non-stop , all good now


----------



## zmhaha

It's a real shame H20 dont get enough attention here. It's a true gem in the classical sense. 

Sure, it does not look so catchy and like a Cavalli knock off on the outside, but the sound is incredible...  personally, judging from the sound only, i would not surprised if it had a $3000 price tag compared to other brands offering.


----------



## Alcophone

zmhaha said:


> It's a real shame H20 dont get enough attention here. It's a true gem in the classical sense.
> 
> Sure, it does not look so catchy and like a Cavalli knock off on the outside, but the sound is incredible...  personally, judging from the sound only, i would not surprised if it had a $3000 price tag compared to other brands offering.


True. With the Sparkos opamps I prefer it even over the Audio-GD HE-9. The latter is a bit more detailed/resolving, but transients seem rolled off compared to the H20 w/ SS3602s, making the latter a lot more enjoyable.


----------



## Zennheiser

zmhaha said:


> It's a real shame H20 dont get enough attention here. It's a true gem in the classical sense.
> 
> Sure, it does not look so catchy and like a Cavalli knock off on the outside, but the sound is incredible...  personally, judging from the sound only, i would not surprised if it had a $3000 price tag compared to other brands offering.




The inside of mine looks fine.  But even if it didn't, I could take care of that in short order.  Judging from what I hear at shows I've attended its value to Dollar ratio is FAR more "sane" than most of the things I saw and heard at the last couple of shows I visited.  I've had my say about hyperinflation in Audio, so I won't repeat it.  Too much of the marketplace is trying to retire on selling one (or ten) of something.  Inverted pyramids are inherently unstable.  At some point, reality will have to reassert itself and I think Gustard's wise to stay on the leading edge of that not yet quite a trend.  But it'll happen.  The real tragedy will be if the '80s are repeated and the marketplace decides to strip the quality out.  Take a look at what sold for $1300.00 in 1978 (https://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/pioneer_sx-1980_stereo_receiver.jpg) and what sold for $1300.00 in 1985. (SX-V90-far lower build quality) The drop in fit and finish quality was dwarfed by the drop in SQ. They sounded lightweight because those '80's receivers WERE lightweight.  (But the prices kept rising!)


----------



## spacequeen7 (Dec 15, 2018)

Burn -in 200+ hours ..time to come out of the closet haha

This amp can make one realized you were doing it all wrong ...seriously, I didn't expect all that much coming from  H10 (good separation thanks to dual transformers)  , just want it slight improvement and balanced output so I could pair it with iFi iESL/estats
I'm not new to opamp rolling and knew what LM49720 was all about -pulled it out without even trying (typical. opamp vs. discrete opamp is like switching from black and white TV...) installed SS3602 then 994Enh-Ticha and been using ever since
Chain: Flac files or Tidal /Topping D50 via optical (fuller-livelier sound ) or USB for DSD
First thing I noticed was  how the amp reacted to a source and prefer Delta Sigma over R2R ,it's just to reviling with the ladder DAC
Next was ability to actually noticed the difference when switching filters on my D50  ,this amp told Spotify to go fly a kite and give Tidal big wet kiss..lossless and DSD sound amazing on H20
In comparison between SS3602 and 994Enh-Ticha,both are exceptional upgrade and should be mandatory with this unit ,SS3602 is slightly more linear with a bit tighter low end then slightly more musical (mids come to mind) and a bit more specious sound-stage on 994Enh,both are very good and natural,you won't see night and day difference between both but will pick up settle differences down the road 
As for my previous favorite Burson V6,I can't compare them directly since I sold them along with H10 but I'm sure you won't be disappointed ,I had a lot of fun with them
Keep in mind this is based on D50 - triple opa1612 (coherent,up-front low end )
H10/Burson V6 vivid+ classic singles  vs.  H20/994Enh-Ticha ..hands down H20
This amp propelled  my LCD-2 from chopping block to #1,synergy is crazy
Cheers

Edit; I forgot to mention the power cord ,it was also replaced with Pangea


----------



## Kaere

Ok but used a H20 with a single dac like D50 is no sense for me! The sound is more dynamic with a balanced dac like X20pro or Audio GD else....


----------



## Alcophone

spacequeen7 said:


> 2x Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha  and two "RA extensions "
> Cheers


Finally discovered the order page (http://www.sonicimagerylabs.com/ordering.htm). $94 each, alright.
Where did you get the RA extensions from? The only extensions I was able to find use silver wires.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Dec 15, 2018)

Alcophone said:


> Finally discovered the order page (http://www.sonicimagerylabs.com/ordering.htm). $94 each, alright.
> Where did you get the RA extensions from? The only extensions I was able to find use silver wires.


Send you PM
BTW you need to ask for RA extention (iirc it's left handed)  ,it will come already per-asembeld


----------



## Alcophone

spacequeen7 said:


> Send you PM
> BTW you need to ask for RA extention (iirc it's left handed)  ,it will come already per-asembeld


Awesome, thank you!


----------



## Zennheiser

I've used mine with a D50 and that combo works flawlessly.  I keep my H20 with my Lynx Hilo/main setup, but with the passage of time, I'm realizing that the Lynx's Headphone output (while not as good as the H20) is good enough to suffice.  I need to loosen up a little desk Real Estate, so eventually, it's likely to wind up in my bedroom as soon as I can find the right place for it.  In my experience, it's not picky about the DAC's with which it is paired.


----------



## slex

I just pull the trigger on this amp since there is an agent where I am.

Any different using 4 pin & 2 X 3 pin balance output?

Already have 2 X V6 dual vivid on standby. SS3602 on the way.


----------



## kdell

Can anyone please comment on any of the following:

Comparison vs Questyle CMA600I?
Synergy with Audeze LCD-2 (fazor)?
Synergy with ZMF Eikon? 
Thanks in advance!


----------



## slex

Got mine today. Are there 2 versions of H20? Mine is single voltage selector vs massdrop's dual voltage selector. Just curious.


----------



## Alcophone

slex said:


> Got mine today. Are there 2 versions of H20? Mine is single voltage selector vs massdrop's dual voltage selector. Just curious.


Huh, interesting. Mind opening it up and taking some pictures?


----------



## slex (Jan 21, 2019)

Alcophone said:


> Huh, interesting. Mind opening it up and taking some pictures?
> 
> The voltage selector is located outside the casing where you swiths either to 115V or 230V.
> 
> ...


----------



## Alcophone

Hm, that didn't work. The corresponding email notification contains two "View attachment ..." links, but they don't work, either.


----------



## slex

Alcophone said:


> Hm, that didn't work. The corresponding email notification contains two "View attachment ..." links, but they don't work, either.


Yup, it doesn't show..even though I uploaded.


----------



## slex

Alcophone said:


> Hm, that didn't work. The corresponding email notification contains two "View attachment ..." links, but they don't work, either.



The voltage selector is located outside the casing where you switch either to 115V or 230V.

Took a short hearing and playing with gain. Definitely there is a wider soundstage on Top Gain but level db is same to me.

So far I have put in a silver fast blow fuse in it, Will switch to SS3602 or Burson V6 this weekend after some burning time.


----------



## slex

Mid way through burning. Remind me of H10 with V5 but with wider soundstage. H20 still on stock opamp though


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Waiting for your impressions! 

Undecided to jump on these or the Liquid Platinum.



slex said:


> Will switch to SS3602 or Burson V6 this weekend after some burning time.


----------



## slex

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Waiting for your impressions!
> 
> Undecided to jump on these or the Liquid Platinum.



10 hours into SS3602. From my Ares DAC balance into H20. Decide to take out my HD700 for a spin on it after a hiatus.

First using SE cable on (H) then switch to 4 pin XLR on HD700. Big difference in sonic changes . Well to my ears only 

Compare to stock opamps. More separation details so far BUT stock opamps sound smoother to my ears....haha.

Ok, I know the excellent opamps of Burson V5i,V5 V6v V6c. I have them in my other DAC and 1 in my power amplifier and Burson Lycan . Will switch them as soon as Andrew reply me whether his opamps need to burn-in


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Jan 26, 2019)

Thanks bro for the update!

Yeah waiting. 

If I am gonno jump on these, hopping to have some inputs also on what possible upgrades I can throw at it.

Have a nice weekend!


----------



## slex

Can those people here already own and have H20. Can you post your volume mark ( O'clock) on your listening level with which type of headphones and it's impedance at which output?

Maybe I'm getting deaf, my 300ohm ZMF planar listening level it at 3-4 o'clock. Same as my Senns HD700.


----------



## curt jester

slex said:


> Can those people here already own and have H20. Can you post your volume mark ( O'clock) on your listening level with which type of headphones and it's impedance at which output?
> 
> Maybe I'm getting deaf, my 300ohm ZMF planar listening level it at 3-4 o'clock. Same as my Senns HD700.


The only high impedance headphones I've got are AKG K340 and trying them I'm listening at 2 o'clock unbalanced...for reference I listen to audioquest highthawks at 8 o'clock balanced.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Jan 28, 2019)

slex said:


> Can those people here already own and have H20. Can you post your volume mark ( O'clock) on your listening level with which type of headphones and it's impedance at which output?
> 
> Maybe I'm getting deaf, my 300ohm ZMF planar listening level it at 3-4 o'clock. Same as my Senns HD700.


You need balanced connection (gain -standard)  for any harder to drive HP...Volume @ noon for LCD-2 ,all them 1/4 jacks are for low impedance HP


----------



## slex

spacequeen7 said:


> You need balanced connection (gain -standard)  for any harder to drive HP...Volume @ noon for LCD-2 ,all them 1/4 jacks are for low impedance HP


Yes I'm using 4pin XLR balance exclusively.


----------



## slex

curt jester said:


> The only high impedance headphones I've got are AKG K340 and trying them I'm listening at 2 o'clock unbalanced...for reference I listen to audioquest highthawks at 8 o'clock balanced.


Ok thanks, likely change to Burson V6 this weekend and gauge my comfort listening level and compare to SS3602.


----------



## sebna

slex said:


> Ok thanks, likely change to Burson V6 this weekend and gauge my comfort listening level and compare to SS3602.



Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## jazzk

I listEn to my hd800’s balanced  rarely past 2:00 and that is really loud!  Love my h20!


----------



## wesxf

I listen to Beyer T1 2nd Gens through the "H" single-ended output at 9 o' clock and it's plenty loud.  I'm feeding through a Dragonfly Red set to force max volume (basically a workaround for lack of a line out) so that may partially account for the volume.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Jan 28, 2019)

slex said:


> Yes I'm using 4pin XLR balance exclusively.


If you using RCA to balanced interconnects you  volume might be slightly lower then RCA ,2c


----------



## slex

Can't wait till weekends


----------



## slex (Jan 30, 2019)

spacequeen7 said:


> If you using RCA to balanced interconnects you  volume might be slightly lower then RCA ,2c


Nope, my ARES DAC has balance out to H20 balance in.

My MHDT paradisea DAC is RCA out to balance H20 input.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Nice the height of the V6 is just right. Can't wait for your impressions!


----------



## spacequeen7

Picked them up from classified few days ago so now I can compare all three ,with no particular order 

* 994 Enh-Ticha-  refined and musical  ,natural (best with my LCD-2)
* V6 vivid -  dynamic,3D/decent sound-stage  (best with SR-207 )
* SS3602 - natural,clean ,fast,kinda reminds me of my recently sold THXAAA789

All the above are very transparent with excellent  separation and detail , source-  X20 Pro connected via toslink


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Jan 30, 2019)

Thanks for the comparo!

I have a modified Oppo PM-2 (Audio Zenith Pmx2 v.2) so I think will go to the 994 Enh-Ticha route. More or less the sound signature that I like.

And while researching on the Sonic Imagery Labs website. I come across this version: _Model 994FC-Enh-Ticha Dual._

A post from the LKS Audio MH-DA003 has this information:

_The Model 992FC-Enh-Ticha single is a higher output current drive option 
(150mA vs 175/200pk mA) and the 3 resistors in the audio path are 
replaced with (1) TaN type in the internal comp and (2) Vishay Naked 
Foil type in the drive stage. This option is special order and adds 
$40.00 to the cost of the opamp. ($89.00 total/ qty 1-4 pcs)_

_The 994 is the DUAL opamp equivalent of the Model 992
The Model 994FC-Enh-Ticha DUAL is a higher output current drive option 
and same components above replaced. This option is special order and 
adds $80.00 to the cost of the opamp. ($174.00 total/ qty 1-4 pcs). _

Question for those electronic experts. Will this work on the Gustard H20? It might be outrageous but just exploring options and I am not adequate on this opamp stuff.

Thanks for your patience.


----------



## alpovs

It just dropped again. For $800. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h20-balanced-headphone-amp


----------



## Awolmartinez

How does this compare to the THX 789?  Is it worth double the price?


----------



## curt jester

Awolmartinez said:


> How does this compare to the THX 789?  Is it worth double the price?


I've got both and the Gustard is still the number 1 choice for me,as to whether it's worth double is a personal issue.I wouldn't rate it twice as good but just better.I listen to flac tracks through a metrum hex into the H20 onto audioquest nighthawks and for my ears it's the best I've heard yet.


----------



## spacequeen7

Took a  look at the H20 Massdrop today ,a lot of folks asking for H20 vs THA AAA 789 comparison,this came in the mail yesterday  ,2x OPA1602A  (789 have 3x 1602A ),that's why I love this amp


----------



## MikeW (Feb 4, 2019)

I thought the 789 used a discrete amplifier circuit and the 1602's were only used when converting balanced to single ended, internally. If you use SE input on 789 the 1602's are never used. Is this wrong?

Can't quite wrap my head around an $800 amp that intentionally uses op-amps, and the horror of op-amp rolling as a feature. There are amp's half the size and price that are fully  discrete, or class A transistor. Rolling Op-amp's and Capacitors' in then signal chain is not the same as rolling tubes. As tubes are used for flavor on purpose, op-amp's and caps in the signal path are done for cost cutting and/or poor design. 

That thing's got a crap-load of Wima Film caps in it too... I sure hope it doesn't have more then one or two in the signal path.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Feb 4, 2019)

MikeW said:


> I thought the 789 used a discrete amplifier circuit and the 1602's were only used when converting balanced to single ended, internally. If you use SE input on 789 the 1602's are never used. Is this wrong?
> 
> Can't quite wrap my head around an $800 amp that intentionally uses op-amps, and the horror of op-amp rolling as a feature. There are amp's half the size and price that are fully  discrete, or class A transistor. Rolling Op-amp's and Capacitors' in then signal chain is not the same as rolling tubes. As tubes are used for flavor on purpose, op-amp's and caps in the signal path are done for cost cutting and/or poor design.
> 
> That thing's got a ****-load of Wima Film caps in it too... I sure hope it doesn't have more then one or two in the signal path.



Hi Mike,no point in getting all mad  ,no one is trying to steer controversy and what not ,one of the reasons I bought this amp was roll-able opamps
I previously owned very good OTL and still have a bunch of tubes and other tube amps but the day I tried "discrete" opamps it was over ,still miss the euphoria you get with valves but I couldn't deal with all that distortion,hum,etc
Take a good look around ...any SS gear  below  THD + N: <0.001 or below .000x % most likely have opamp implemented (top tier and Stax included )  in the circuit  just like "WIMA"..I rather have caps then no caps at all (you can hear the effect on 789 when it's idle or turned off)
You can find all opamp  specs online or do little research yourself ,it's not that difficult,even old man like me can do it ,789 is as good as they get under 1K no doubt but it wasn't for me

Now back to where I started ...listening to 2x opa 1602A as I type ,btw it's direct LME49720 replacement
for fainthearted  
http://e2e.ti.com/support/audio/f/6/t/457875

I can't do direct A/B comparison since 789 was recently sold but if you own 789 and willing to do proper comparison  PM me and if you have a pair coming your way (US only) ,just send it back when you done
Here is my 2c I'm very surprised how good this opamps are  ..sounds pretty much like the other amp ,just little bid thicker and less analytical,it retains same low end definition , thump-er opamp...and ..balanced LOL
Cheers


----------



## Alcophone

Hey everyone,

I just published my review of the following opamps when used in the Gustard H20:

Burson V6 Classic
Burson V6 Vivid
Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha
SparkoS Labs SS3602
Here's the link: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/opamp-rolling-with-the-gustard-h20.23639/

Enjoy!


----------



## sebna

Alcophone said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I just published my review of the following opamps when used in the Gustard H20:
> 
> ...



Thank you for great review 

I use V6 Vivid with my H10. I might try your favorite ones.


----------



## Hardtrancing

mandrake50 said:


> If I am not mistaken, those are the two op amps that people like to swap out. SE Input...
> 
> I bought the Sparko  opamps. I haven't tried them yet as I figured it shouldn't make any differences as I have been using it with the balanced inputs.



So if I where to only use a balanced DAC with the balanced inputs of the H20, the opamps won't come into play at all?


----------



## Alcophone

Hardtrancing said:


> So if I where to only use a balanced DAC with the balanced inputs of the H20, the opamps won't come into play at all?


They come into play either way.


----------



## Hardtrancing

Alcophone said:


> They come into play either way.



That is what I thought. Which is why mandrake50s comment confused me.
But thanks for clearing it up.


----------



## mandrake50 (Apr 18, 2019)

Hardtrancing said:


> That is what I thought. Which is why mandrake50s comment confused me.
> But thanks for clearing it up.


 EDIT, I will stand corrected.
Maybe I am. I got a bit confused here. I was talking about the H10, though the opamps in the H20 appear to be used in a similar manner (for single ended to balanced conversion). I have not really done the analysis that I did with the H10. But on that amp they are bypassed for balanced operation.
I put a couple of hundred hours on the amp at fist, but I have only another 20 or so of real listening. This hobby has taken a back seat to other things over the last several months.


----------



## Slim1970

I’ll be getting one of these amps tomorrow. Anyone care to comment on its sound signature? I’ve read through this thread but I  still don’t have a grasp of this amps tonality. Does it have a warm sound, is it detailed, etc... I also picked up the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps to pair with it  thanks in advance!


----------



## slex

Slim1970 said:


> I’ll be getting one of these amps tomorrow. Anyone care to comment on its sound signature? I’ve read through this thread but I  still don’t have a grasp of this amps tonality. Does it have a warm sound, is it detailed, etc... I also picked up the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps to pair with it  thanks in advance!



What's your current amp and dac? To me its sound better then  Shiit's  Jotunheim which i have currently right now. It's blacker and have wider stage emphasis then Jotunheim.

Since you have the most expensive opamps coming your way, break in your amp with stock first. When your Sonic opamps arrived.  Let's us know the different.

Current opamps on my H20 is  Burson V6 Vivid. To me it sounds better then Sparkos which i have tested, perhaps  got to do with my dac? which is Denafrips Ares. All balance setup.

I decided on this amp from Gustard is because i owned a H10 before and it sounded very pleasant. And H20 is truly a power monster. 12W @ 32ohm.  You can't go wrong if your headphones are power hungry.


----------



## Slim1970 (Jul 17, 2019)

slex said:


> What's your current amp and dac? To me its sound better then  Shiit's  Jotunheim which i have currently right now. It's blacker and have wider stage emphasis then Jotunheim.
> 
> Since you have the most expensive opamps coming your way, break in your amp with stock first. When your Sonic opamps arrived.  Let's us know the different.
> 
> ...


I had the Pro iCan until a couple of weeks ago. It has good power, it’s detailed, and the xbass+ works very well. But it lacked some musicality. Looking at the specs the H20 has about the same power. From the reviews I’ve read the H20 seems to be detailed, has good bass weight and using it with the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps will add the musicality I’m seeking.

I’m currently using the Cavalli Liquid Carbon 2.0, HeadAmp Gilmore Lite Mk2, and I also have a Burson Fun. All of them are very good. In the fun I currently have the V6 Classics, but I plan on putting the SparkoS SS3601’s back in it. I have a Hugo 2 and Burson Swing as my DACs. In the Swing I have dual V6 classics in the I/V stage and V6 vivids in the LP stage and it’s very musical and engaging. The Hugo 2 is more detailed and transparent but that’s the Chord signature sound. It reveals all and keeps things unaltered for the most part. So it’s a nice change of pace switching between the two.

I plan on keeping everything stock until I can get grasp of its sound, then switch over to the 994Ticha’s. If all goes well, I plan on keeping this amp and selling one or two of the others. The Cavalli stays puts though


----------



## Zennheiser

I second the above.  It's a terrific amp bone stock.  One can salt to taste if one cares to, but it punches WAY above its ask...


----------



## Slim1970

Zennheiser said:


> I second the above.  It's a terrific amp bone stock.  One can salt to taste if one cares to, but it punches WAY above its ask...


Now we're talking! How's the bass and attack with the stock op-amps in your opinion?


----------



## Slim1970

Doing some listening with the H20 with the stock op-amps in the amp at the moment. I'm using the Hugo 2 as the DAC. In stock form it's not bad. I like the power of this amp. It has very good drive. I don't feel like my headphones are underpowered or under performing with this amp. The H20 with stock op-amps is clean and detailed and the bass has nice punch. This amp seems fast with nice attack and pace. The bass thumps and gets out of the way, nice. There also doesn't seem to be any bass bloom at all. For my liking, the stock op-amps need a little bit more bass presence. The vocals are forward with the stock op-amps and the treble doesn't have that sparkle that I like. Other than that this amp is a nice find and seems to be very underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing them with the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps in it to see if there are any improvements to the sound.


----------



## slex

Slim1970 said:


> Doing some listening with the H20 with the stock op-amps in the amp at the moment. I'm using the Hugo 2 as the DAC. In stock form it's not bad. I like the power of this amp. It has very good drive. I don't feel like my headphones are underpowered or under performing with this amp. The H20 with stock op-amps is clean and detailed and the bass has nice punch. This amp seems fast with nice attack and pace. The bass thumps and gets out of the way, nice. There also doesn't seem to be any bass bloom at all. For my liking, the stock op-amps need a little bit more bass presence. The vocals are forward with the stock op-amps and the treble doesn't have that sparkle that I like. Other than that this amp is a nice find and seems to be very underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing them with the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps in it to see if there are any improvements to the sound.



You'll be missing out on balance playback with Hugo 2 though.


----------



## BassDigger (Jul 20, 2019)

Slim1970 said:


> Doing some listening with the H20 with the stock op-amps in the amp at the moment. I'm using the Hugo 2 as the DAC. In stock form it's not bad. I like the power of this amp. It has very good drive. I don't feel like my headphones are underpowered or under performing with this amp. The H20 with stock op-amps is clean and detailed and the bass has nice punch. This amp seems fast with nice attack and pace. The bass thumps and gets out of the way, nice. There also doesn't seem to be any bass bloom at all. For my liking, the stock op-amps need a little bit more bass presence. The vocals are forward with the stock op-amps and the treble doesn't have that sparkle that I like. Other than that this amp is a nice find and seems to be very underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing them with the Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha op-amps in it to see if there are any improvements to the sound.



Hey y'all! Bin keeping an interested, but distant, watch on this thread.

It's nice to see another adopter of niche Chinese hifi, and I look forward to reading your further impressions, especially if you can make some comparisons to some established and respected kit (like Cavelli)! 

I just thought that I'd chime in with a bit of a 'reality check', if I may.

How many hours have you run your new H20? It may be a debated subject, but many people noted that the H10 needed 40+ hours running before the sound signature would start to become established. I can't imagine that the H20 will burn-in any quicker. I believe that what you are detailing are your_ initial_ impressions, yes? You mention the bass presence and treble extension; these are something that people often find lacking in new gear, but it then improves over time (I have certainly experienced this myself [with other gear]). So, hopefully, this will improve for you, too.

Also, what are you discussing here: your new amp, or the op-amps fitted inside of it? Remember that the op-amps are just a small part of the picture; an interesting part, but just a part: there are many things that can impact the sonic signature, even the amp's interaction with your source (I.e. if there's an impedance mis-match, or if both components share a sonic trait), never mind balanced/unbalanced this or that; headphone cable, interconnect cable, mains cables.....; headphone type, headphone model........the list goes on!

My suggestion would be to wait, and see if you can notice any changes (in the standard amp's sound) over time, before you start deciding what improvements that you'd like to make, and how you could make them.

Happy listening!!


----------



## Alcophone

BassDigger said:


> I just thought that I'd chime in with a bit of a 'reality check', if I may.
> 
> How many hours have you run your new H20? It may be a debated subject, but many people noted that the H10 needed 40+ hours running before the sound signature would start to become established. I can't imagine that the H20 will burn-in any quicker.


Don't worry, I happen to know his unit was pre-owned (not mine - can't touch this), thus should not need further burn-in.


----------



## Slim1970 (Jul 20, 2019)

BassDigger said:


> Hey y'all! Bin keeping an interested, but distant, watch on this thread.
> 
> It's nice to see another adopter of niche Chinese hifi, and I look forward to reading your further impressions, especially if you can make some comparisons to some established and respected kit (like Cavelli)!
> 
> ...


Like @Alcophone said my unit is not new. I bought it off another head-fier here. I’m not sure of how many hours he had on the unit  but it sounds good in the state it’s in.

I believe burn-in makes a difference and as I put more hours on the H20 I hope to hear it sounding better. I don’t expect it to deviate to far from what I’m hearing now. This amp sound neutral to my ears with the stock op-amps. There not one band of the frequency that stands out more than the other with the stock op-amps. With that said I want a little more bottom end and I want the notes to have more weight to them. What I’m hearing from the stock components is not that so far.

I’m with you on system synergy. Matching up gear is huge. But right now I’m just listening to get a grasp on what this amps does best and how changing op-amps will alter it. After all changing op-amps is part of the fun.


----------



## Slim1970

slex said:


> You'll be missing out on balance playback with Hugo 2 though.


I know, but I’ll be upgrading to a Hugo TT2 soon to do just that. If the TT2 is as good as I think it’s going to be it might replace the H20 altogether


----------



## BassDigger

Slim1970 said:


> Like @Alcophone said my unit is not new. I bought it off another head-fier here. I’m not sure of how many hours he had on the unit  but it sounds good in the state it’s in.
> 
> I believe burn-in makes a difference and as I put more hours on the H20 I hope to hear it sounding better. I don’t expect it to deviate to far from what I’m hearing now. This amp sound neutral to my ears with the stock op-amps. There not one band of the frequency that stands out more than the other with the stock op-amps. With that said I want a little more bottom end and I want the notes to have more weight to them. What I’m hearing from the stock components is not that so far.
> 
> I’m with you on system synergy. Matching up gear is huge. But right now I’m just listening to get a grasp on what this amps does best and how changing op-amps will alter it. After all changing op-amps is part of the fun.



That's great. It's just speaking as an interested observer, sure, the effects of different upgrades are of significance, however I want to read first about 'how this amp compares to other amps', rather than 'what effect do different op-amps have'.

To that point, you refer to bass weight (something close to my heart- hence my moniker): do you mean that the H20 lacks this, compared to other amps?


----------



## Slim1970 (Jul 20, 2019)

BassDigger said:


> That's great. It's just speaking as an interested observer, sure, the effects of different upgrades are of significance, however I want to read first about 'how this amp compares to other amps', rather than 'what effect do different op-amps have'.
> 
> To that point, you refer to bass weight (something close to my heart- hence my moniker): do you mean that the H20 lacks this, compared to other amps?


That’s a great name, btw. Now it makes sense. I’m going to hold off making any kind of judgement on this amp since I haven’t spent any real time with it. But off the top of my head I can make a quick comparison to the CMA Twelve Master that I had in my possession just a few days ago. The H20 has a lot in common with that amp. It beats in raw power and is just as refined sounding. The CMA Twelve Master has a built in DAC which helps shape its smooth, detailed sound. The H20 is going to sound similar to the source it’s being feed. Which lets you know how neutral and somewhat transparent this amp is. It’s doesn't get out of the way like the Pro iCan I had but it’s darn close. The CMA Twelve Master has very good bass with very good bass definition. But the H20 hits a little harder and seems faster. But the H20 lacks the bass depth of the CMA Twelve Master in stock form. The mids on the H20 is better to my ears. The treble on the CMA Twelve Master has a bit more clarity than the H20 in stock form.

Another that I have in house is the Soundaware P1. The H20 has very similar specs as the P1. The P1 but has bigger low end and brighter treble than the H20 is stock form. But the bass on the P1 is loose and boomy in comparison to the bass of the H20. The mids on the P1 seem to lacking to my ears. The mids on the H20 sound more balanced although a bit forward with the stock op-amps. The treble on the P1 is more extend but is also very bright. It dominates the sound and can be overwhelming to senses. It boomy low end and piercing treble of the P1 makes the amp sound V-Shaped because the mids are so pushed back to my ears. The H20 is stock form is much better balanced.

The H20 is good but I have a feeling it can be better. The stock op-amps at this point seems to holding back some potential. But as you can see it’s very competitive in stock form, which is why I’m so eager to roll some op-amps in it. More impressions to come....


----------



## Zennheiser

Slim1970 said:


> Now we're talking! How's the bass and attack with the stock op-amps in your opinion?


Outstanding. Perfect?  Pretty close, but just remember that being the "wetware" in the experience our perceptions have more slop in them over time than virtually anything else you can change on a GOOD amp.  We all like to tweak our gear to personalize it, but I wouldn't get too bogged down in the micro-minutiae.  If the upgrades are inexpensive and reversible, I think all that stuff is great fun.  But not (in this case in particular)  a pre-requisite for letting the virtuosity of the H20 shine.  If it had been built or retailed in the West, the ask would've been what a good condition used Beamer runs.  Grab it and Growl and don't look back...


----------



## spacequeen7

@Slim1970  ..I think it's time for 994Enh-Ticha    and powercord upgrade ..my 2c


----------



## Slim1970

Zennheiser said:


> Outstanding. Perfect?  Pretty close, but just remember that being the "wetware" in the experience our perceptions have more slop in them over time than virtually anything else you can change on a GOOD amp.  We all like to tweak our gear to personalize it, but I wouldn't get too bogged down in the micro-minutiae.  If the upgrades are inexpensive and reversible, I think all that stuff is great fun.  But not (in this case in particular)  a pre-requisite for letting the virtuosity of the H20 shine.  If it had been built or retailed in the West, the ask would've been what a good condition used Beamer runs.  Grab it and Growl and don't look back...


Well said and this is a very well built amp. Op-amps are fairly inexpensive compared to what some good tubes would cost. Like you said it's not an requirement in this case because is stock form the H20 is worthy of some praise and should be placed in the top tier of amps based on performance. For the price I paid for it I consider it one of the best purchases I've made so far. It's so good....Seriously


----------



## Slim1970

spacequeen7 said:


> @Slim1970  ..I think it's time for 994Enh-Ticha    and powercord upgrade ..my 2c


@spacequeen7 you are right. I got up this morning and that's the first thing I did. The 994Enh-Ticha are installed. Upon listening, it fixes everything I did not like about the stock op-amps especially the midrange and treble. I thought the midrange with the stock op-amps was a little congested and did not tie in well with the bass and treble. With the 994Enh-Ticha's installed the H20's midrange has better presence and the sound is more natural and clear. There's a sweetness to vocals that wasn't there before. The music itself is more much more cohesive. The imaging and instrument separation is so much better with 994Enh-Ticha's. The bass was good before. But now it has much better definition and is more taunt and there's some slam to it. It reminds me of good planar bass but it's much faster and deeper. It's hard to describe honestly. The treble clarity I was seeking it now there. What an improvement to the sound the 994Enh-Ticha have made. 

The guy I bought this from included a Tripp-Lite power cord. I know there are better ones out there but I don't want to spend a lot of money on one because I'm not so sure I would hear the improvements. I could be wrong though. Do you have any suggestions?


----------



## Alcophone

Slim1970 said:


> @spacequeen7 you are right. I got up this morning and that's the first thing I did. The 994Enh-Ticha are installed. Upon listening, it fixes everything I did not like about the stock op-amps especially the midrange and treble. I thought the midrange with the stock op-amps was a little congested and did not tie in well with the bass and treble. With the 994Enh-Ticha's installed the H20's midrange has better presence and the sound is more natural and clear. There's a sweetness to vocals that wasn't there before. The music itself is more much more cohesive. The imaging and instrument separation is so much better with 994Enh-Ticha's. The bass was good before. But now it has much better definition and is more taunt and there's some slam to it. It reminds me of good planar bass but it's much faster and deeper. It's hard to describe honestly. The treble clarity I was seeking it now there. What an improvement to the sound the 994Enh-Ticha have made.
> 
> The guy I bought this from included a Tripp-Lite power cord. I know there are better ones out there but I don't want to spend a lot of money on one because I'm not so sure I would hear the improvements. I could be wrong though. Do you have any suggestions?


Awesome, glad you like them, too!

My favorite budget cord is the Volex 17604, then quite a bit more expensive, but still cheap by audiophile standards, the Wireworld Stratus 7.

I haven't played with them with the H20, though, so that's more a general suggestion.


----------



## Slim1970

Alcophone said:


> Awesome, glad you like them, too!
> 
> My favorite budget cord is the Volex 17604, then quite a bit more expensive, but still cheap by audiophile standards, the Wireworld Stratus 7.
> 
> I haven't played with them with the H20, though, so that's more a general suggestion.


Cool, I'll look into them. Power cords are one thing I know very little about.


----------



## spacequeen7

Slim1970 said:


> @spacequeen7 you are right. I got up this morning and that's the first thing I did. The 994Enh-Ticha are installed. Upon listening, it fixes everything I did not like about the stock op-amps especially the midrange and treble. I thought the midrange with the stock op-amps was a little congested and did not tie in well with the bass and treble. With the 994Enh-Ticha's installed the H20's midrange has better presence and the sound is more natural and clear. There's a sweetness to vocals that wasn't there before. The music itself is more much more cohesive. The imaging and instrument separation is so much better with 994Enh-Ticha's. The bass was good before. But now it has much better definition and is more taunt and there's some slam to it. It reminds me of good planar bass but it's much faster and deeper. It's hard to describe honestly. The treble clarity I was seeking it now there. What an improvement to the sound the 994Enh-Ticha have made.
> 
> The guy I bought this from included a Tripp-Lite power cord. I know there are better ones out there but I don't want to spend a lot of money on one because I'm not so sure I would hear the improvements. I could be wrong though. Do you have any suggestions?



I don't know much about Tripp-Lite but I use Pangea AC 14SE MK II on all my gear (around $60.00 ) ,if you using none balanced source I would highly recommend  18 AWG RCA Quad Shield RG-6 Coax 75 Ohm with Solid Copper Center (ebay -cheap ) for interconnect 
Good balanced source should improve overall experience 
I'm glad you enjoying it 
Cheers


----------



## Slim1970

I just put a offer in for a 2 meter WireWorld Electra 7 power cord. We'll see if my offer is accepted. This amp is a keeper for sure


----------



## BassDigger

Slim1970 said:


> @spacequeen7 you are right. I got up this morning and that's the first thing I did. The 994Enh-Ticha are installed. Upon listening, it fixes everything I did not like about the stock op-amps especially the midrange and treble. I thought the midrange with the stock op-amps was a little congested and did not tie in well with the bass and treble. With the 994Enh-Ticha's installed the H20's midrange has better presence and the sound is more natural and clear. There's a sweetness to vocals that wasn't there before. The music itself is more much more cohesive. The imaging and instrument separation is so much better with 994Enh-Ticha's. The bass was good before. But now it has much better definition and is more taunt and there's some slam to it. It reminds me of good planar bass but it's much faster and deeper. It's hard to describe honestly. The treble clarity I was seeking it now there. What an improvement to the sound the 994Enh-Ticha have made.
> 
> The guy I bought this from included a Tripp-Lite power cord. I know there are better ones out there but I don't want to spend a lot of money on one because I'm not so sure I would hear the improvements. I could be wrong though. Do you have any suggestions?





MikeW said:


> .....
> 
> Can't quite wrap my head around an $800 amp that intentionally uses op-amps, and the horror of op-amp rolling as a feature. There are amp's half the size and price that are fully  discrete, or class A transistor. Rolling Op-amp's and Capacitors' in then signal chain is not the same as rolling tubes. As tubes are used for flavor on purpose, op-amp's and caps in the signal path are done for cost cutting and/or poor design.
> 
> That thing's got a ****-load of Wima Film caps in it too... I sure hope it doesn't have more then one or two in the signal path.



I wonder if Gustard intentionally included op-amps in this design, as some-kind of marketing ploy. From what I recall of the H10 thread, and now this one, much interest, discussion, and daresay, purchasing appears based upon the op-amp rolling potential!

As @MikeW said, first and foremost, op-amps are a cost saving compromise; a discrete (printed board) circuit should always (potentially) be better; just look at these premium 'op-amps': actually, they're mini circuit boards!

Are Gustard going to be selling their own line of op-amps? Do they not trust themselves to design a discrete circuit? What's going on here?

I think that I've posted this question, earlier in the thread: The H10 is/was an updated Violectric design; does anyone know what the H20 is based on? 

----

I've never been much of a fan of spending 'hard-earned' on power cables; I've always been happy with the performance of the TNT Twisted Snake DIY cable. If that's too much work, then just make one run (using some good quality shielded cable), and remember to connect the shielding to the earth at the power source end only.


----------



## Slim1970

Burson is another company that designs their amps around a particular sounding op-amp. For their upper tier equipment they do have discrete circuit boards in them. Their newer products are designed for op-amp rolling, which they design their own. I think it's good that you can tailor the sound of an amp to how you want it to sound. Tube amps are the same way. But having a good fundamental design to start with is a must. In the case of the H20 this amp seems to be designed for sound regardless of op-amp. The stock op-amps are good but changing them out gets you a better, more refined amp that sounds like a $2000 dollar amp. I've heard some of these $2k dollar amps and I'd take the H20 over them. 

On a side note, I'm not sure if changing out the power cord will net you more improvements than changing op-amps. But if you're a tweaker like me it's something I want to try. If i can get another 3 - 5% of improved performance out of this amp I want it. Others may disagree and I'm okay with that. Everyone hears things differently. Good sound is purely subjective and is up to end user to decide what sounds best to them. I'm not going to go overboard on a power cord though. The H20 sounds good as is with the 994Enh-Ticha's installed. So I'm waiting for the right deal to get a good power cord. 

I would also like to know what amp the H20 is designed after. Some reviewers said it sounds like the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold. I've listened to that amp and it's way to warm sounding for my taste. The H20 brings out more details and it much more livelier sounding. I take the H20 over it as well.


----------



## Slim1970

@spacequeen7 I ended up ordering the Pangea Audio AC 14XL MKII power cable for the H20. After reading many reviews on other power cables from different companies I settled on this one. What sold me was Jay Victor's other project work before joining Pangea. Also, the price to performance ratio of his cables and the many accolades his series of power cables have garnered. Thanks for recommending these cables to me.


----------



## Icekuma

Slim1970 said:


> @spacequeen7 you are right. I got up this morning and that's the first thing I did. The 994Enh-Ticha are installed. Upon listening, it fixes everything I did not like about the stock op-amps especially the midrange and treble. I thought the midrange with the stock op-amps was a little congested and did not tie in well with the bass and treble. With the 994Enh-Ticha's installed the H20's midrange has better presence and the sound is more natural and clear. There's a sweetness to vocals that wasn't there before. The music itself is more much more cohesive. The imaging and instrument separation is so much better with 994Enh-Ticha's. The bass was good before. But now it has much better definition and is more taunt and there's some slam to it. It reminds me of good planar bass but it's much faster and deeper. It's hard to describe honestly. The treble clarity I was seeking it now there. What an improvement to the sound the 994Enh-Ticha have made.
> 
> The guy I bought this from included a Tripp-Lite power cord. I know there are better ones out there but I don't want to spend a lot of money on one because I'm not so sure I would hear the improvements. I could be wrong though. Do you have any suggestions?


Hi @Slim1970   is this the one you bought! A pair? After reading your impression, I am now tempted to try.

https://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Imagery-Labs-994Enh-Ticha-Operational/dp/B0776QQD78

 Thank you.


----------



## Slim1970

Icekuma said:


> Hi @Slim1970   is this the one you bought! A pair? After reading your impression, I am now tempted to try.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Imagery-Labs-994Enh-Ticha-Operational/dp/B0776QQD78
> 
> Thank you.


It is but you're going to want to get them from here:

Sonic-Imagery-Labs-994Enh-Ticha

You're also going to need the right angle adapters as they are too big to sit in the dip8 slots in the H20. Just request them in the final sale or in your offer because there is a fee for them.


----------



## Slim1970

Just added a Loki to mix with my H20. I love this little box of tone controls.


----------



## jazzk

Just put in the sonic imagery 994’s in my h20.  They replaced the sparkos.  A noticeable upgrade. Thanks to previous posters and their reviews. Sounds clearer and more refined.  Love my h20! Anyone interested in a set of sparkos op amps lol.


----------



## Slim1970

Anyone using the pre-outs? If so, are you hearing background hissing? I’m also hearing some hissing using the SE headphone jacks.


----------



## slex

Slim1970 said:


> Anyone using the pre-outs? If so, are you hearing background hissing? I’m also hearing some hissing using the SE headphone jacks.



You meant hissing from H20 when using preout or hissing on your preout's target amp?

I have mine preout to jotunhiem, theres no hissing BUT its background is dead quiet when using H20 compared to jotunhiem.


----------



## Slim1970

slex said:


> You meant hissing from H20 when using preout or hissing on your preout's target amp?
> 
> I have mine preout to jotunhiem, theres no hissing BUT its background is dead quiet when using H20 compared to jotunhiem.


Hissing when using the preout from the H20. The amp is quiet. Something in my chain is noisy.


----------



## Icekuma

Guys. Currently I am using Sony Wm1a connecting from 4.4 balanced to xlr input. Sometimes I use my Mac to play using wm1a as DAC

Having said that it.is troublesome to turn Mac on just for music. Sony doesn't play iso files directly. 


Has anyone have good experience with good dynamic dac with H20? I am looking at Topping D70s. Also recommendation /thoughts on the transport similiar/ like Cayin iHA6?


----------



## slex

Icekuma said:


> Guys. Currently I am using Sony Wm1a connecting from 4.4 balanced to xlr input. Sometimes I use my Mac to play using wm1a as DAC
> 
> Having said that it.is troublesome to turn Mac on just for music. Sony doesn't play iso files directly.
> 
> ...



Topup some SGD$100+ instead of Topping D70 and  have a look at Denafrips Ares balanced R2R dac .Vinshine Audio is your local and international dealer in Singapore so there's no hassle for warranty for 3 years. Look for Alvin. 

I think theres a new version of Ares just came around. Not sure whether the will be a price increase.


----------



## jazzk

I use a lks 004 with my h20. I also have a spring holo dac but I like the lks with the h20 better for my can setup. I use the holo on my speaker rig. The lks just sounds better for my headphone listening.


----------



## Icekuma

slex said:


> Topup some SGD$100+ instead of Topping D70 and  have a look at Denafrips Ares balanced R2R dac .Vinshine Audio is your local and international dealer in Singapore so there's no hassle for warranty for 3 years. Look for Alvin.
> 
> I think theres a new version of Ares just came around. Not sure whether the will be a price increase.


Thanks. Let me look I  up. Are you in Singapore too?


----------



## Slim1970

Found the source of the hissing. It was the balanced to single ended cables I had going to my power amp. I guess the cables are not grounded properly to function in this manner. It tricky anyway to make a balanced to single ended cable in the first place. I guess that's why it's not common practice to make these types of cables


----------



## Alcophone

Slim1970 said:


> Found the source of the hissing. It was the balanced to single ended cables I had going to my power amp. I guess the cables are not grounded properly to function in this manner. It tricky anyway to make a balanced to single ended cable in the first place. I guess that's why it's not common practice to make these types of cables


Tricky and dangerous. Doing it properly requires a transformer, for example this: https://m.markertek.com/product/jen-pc2xr/jensen-pc-2xr-2-ch-iso-max-interface


----------



## Slim1970

Alcophone said:


> Tricky and dangerous. Doing it properly requires a transformer, for example this: https://m.markertek.com/product/jen-pc2xr/jensen-pc-2xr-2-ch-iso-max-interface


Right, I could've seriously damaged my amp. That device is does the conversion is expensive. I wonder if there are cheaper options out there. Thanks for the link!


----------



## Alcophone

Slim1970 said:


> Right, I could've seriously damaged my amp. That device is does the conversion is expensive. I wonder if there are cheaper options out there. Thanks for the link!


Let us know if you find something  It's definitely not pocket change.


----------



## sahmen

Slim1970 said:


> Found the source of the hissing. It was the balanced to single ended cables I had going to my power amp. I guess the cables are not grounded properly to function in this manner. It tricky anyway to make a balanced to single ended cable in the first place. I guess that's why it's not common practice to make these types of cables


Re: the Loki.  Now speaking of "balanced to single" connections, I am wondering how interfacing the sound through the Loki works if one's system is balanced all the way from source to amps. I have always liked the idea of the Loki, but never bought one, because I was hoping that schiit audio would make a version with a balanced circuitry and balanced input/output jacks, so that I could position it between my balanced DAC and balanced amp without having to worry about any SE to balanced conversions. Do you find that this is a legitimate concern?  I am only asking that since Schiit Audio never released a Loki with a balanced circuitry... Does that mean that the balanced circuitry is not relevant for a Loki?

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.


----------



## Alcophone

sahmen said:


> Re: the Loki.  Now speaking of "balanced to single" connections, I am wondering how interfacing the sound through the Loki works if one's system is balanced all the way from source to amps. I have always liked the idea of the Loki, but never bought one, because I was hoping that schiit audio would make a version with a balanced circuitry and balanced input/output jacks, so that I could position it between my balanced DAC and balanced amp without having to worry about any SE to balanced conversions. Do you find that this is a legitimate concern?  I am only asking that since Schiit Audio never released a Loki with a balanced circuitry... Does that mean that the balanced circuitry is not relevant for a Loki?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.


The easiest way would be to use the single ended output of your source (if it has some), feed it into Loki, and that into the H20's single ended input, which then converts it back to balanced.

Not ideal, but there is hope:


Jason Stoddard said:


> Third, I think you may also remember my warnings about never, ever, ever having a really balanced EQ, because doubling the number of very expensive parts needed was (a) stupid, and (b) physically impossible. It didn't help that our previous balanced EQ prototypes completely crashed and burned. It was so bad, I figured we'd never get the Nexus stage to work with the reactive network needed for our EQ topology. But when I pulled one of the old protos to show everyone, I realized--these pre-dated Nexus. _These were Pivot Point! _Nexus might _actually _work! So, long story short, I threw together a quick test case, and yes, holy schiit, Nexus does work for this application (with caveats, like it will need fairly high voltage rails and stacked supplies to work, and hell, I haven't run it on the analyzer, so no clue what the distortion performance will be...BUT THIS IS A PATH! As in, a path where we don't have to double all the reactive parts, and yet still have balanced output.
> 
> The usual caveats apply--I still don't know exactly when Sol will ship, but now it is looking realistically like a couple of months at most, and EQs beyond Loki Mini still aren't a 2019 thing...but man oh man, this has been a great engineering week!


----------



## Slim1970

@sahmen the Loki is great, but like you said it's only single ended. It's only a problem when you want to keep everything balanced from input to output. If your amp has a balanced output then you're still reaping the benefits of using it over any single ended output. It's not an issue for me because the H20 is quiet. After my recent experience with using balanced to singe ended cables I have a hard time recommending using them. Since they introduce noise when not done properly.

The Loki is a great tweak. I've gotten way more value out of it than buying any after aftermarket cable. The Hugo 2 only has single ended outputs and it's the best DAC I've used so far. I believe Chord's upper tier DACs have balanced outputs but they are only for convenience. So having a choice of single ended or balanced output from your source is a nice option but it's not as huge of a deal as most people think.


----------



## jazzk

I use a Loki between my antelope zodiac dac and my gustard h10 but I have to use single end rca’s. I do like the Loki so I’m willing to sacrifice balanced operation for tone control. I wish someone would make a small balanced headphone eq for smaller desktop amp/dac combo. Between my lks dac and my h20 I run balanced thru a dbx 30 band equalizer for tone control, I know that is blasphemy for all u purist but I like it!


----------



## Slim1970

jazzk said:


> I use a Loki between my antelope zodiac dac and my gustard h10 but I have to use single end rca’s. I do like the Loki so I’m willing to sacrifice balanced operation for tone control. I wish someone would make a small balanced headphone eq for smaller desktop amp/dac combo. Between my lks dac and my h20 I run balanced thru a dbx 30 band equalizer for tone control, I know that is blasphemy for all u purist but I like it!


It's not blasphemy at all. Every headphone I have heard or tried from my perspective could benefit from a boost or cut at some spot in the frequency spectrum. The Loki is really good at it since those adjustments are done in analog domain. Since introducing the Loki in between my Hugo 2 and H20 every headphone in my collection sounds down right musical on this amp.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Hi all. Anybody knows how I can contact Gustard? My volume potentiometer has certain positions where (my guess) does not track properly and the relays are acting like crazy switching like 5 at a time. I need a new pot. Anybody else experiencing this issue?


----------



## Alcophone

lucianpescaru said:


> Hi all. Anybody knows how I can contact Gustard? My volume potentiometer has certain positions where (my guess) does not track properly and the relays are acting like crazy switching like 5 at a time. I need a new pot. Anybody else experiencing this issue?


I had pops in the left channel when changing the volume, even after turning it off and on. But the next day it was fine again (and still is).


----------



## raoultrifan

lucianpescaru said:


> Hi all. Anybody knows how I can contact Gustard? My volume potentiometer has certain positions where (my guess) does not track properly and the relays are acting like crazy switching like 5 at a time. I need a new pot. Anybody else experiencing this issue?



Servus Luci,

This looks more like a rotary knob with normal contacts instead of a regular carbon potentiometer (someone even was able to count a resolution of 64 volume changes). If out of warranty, you might take a change and use some electric contact spray to clean it inside...with care. If is under warranty, then I hope the contact email gustard@163.com still works (taken from H20 datasheet) or perhaps you could leave them a message via their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/GustardDACs/.

Best,
Raul.

P.S.: Worth mentioning that this headamp measures way better on the balanced output than on the single-ended one: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...n-gustard-h20-headphone-amplifier.7407/page-4.


----------



## lucianpescaru (Nov 23, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> Servus Luci,
> This looks more like a rotary knob with normal contacts instead of a regular carbon potentiometer (someone even was able to count a resolution of 64 volume changes). If out of warranty, you might take a change and use some electric contact spray to clean it inside...with care. If is under warranty, then I hope the contact email gustard@163.com still works (taken from H20 datasheet) or perhaps you could leave them a message via their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/GustardDACs/.
> Best, Raul.



Nice measurements  Thanks for the details but the facebook page seems a bit outdated. I'll scan the warranty card and email them.

edit: no response so far. Anybody?


----------



## GUSTARD (Dec 19, 2019)

lucianpescaru said:


> Nice measurements  Thanks for the details but the facebook page seems a bit outdated. I'll scan the warranty card and email them.
> 
> edit: no response so far. Anybody?



Hi
Dear user
We apologize for the bad experience of H20
In fact, the volume of the H20 headphone amplifier is a voltage sample of the knob position.
And use this voltage value to determine the switch combination of the relay for volume control

We also found that the original machine was unstable.
And repair methods have been developed.

as the picture shows
You can ask someone with maintenance experience to ask him to replace the C209 capacitor and change it to 1nf specifications, which can eliminate the problem of continuous beating of the relay.


----------



## smoothb0re (Jan 7, 2020)

Ended up getting a dummy good deal on a H20 with mere months of use behind it. I've never been impressed with an amp before, but I am now.

Essentially the H20 is what I had hoped the 789 would be. I ended up not really liking the 789 - I guess it felt too clinical to me.  The H20 is a godsent - clear and accurate, but still sort of fluid and fun. The balanced out seems to sound a lot better than the 1/4", not sure if that is just in my head though.


----------



## smoothb0re

I've been playing around with the H20 and god damn, it's something else. With stock op-amps it's like sonic honey - musical, resolution for days and a very slight warmth to the midrange. With SS3602 op-amps it turns into an absolutely neutral, transparent mountain of resolution. Never heard anything like it before. It's insane.

That's why it hurts so much I had to put it up for sale. Can't keep a headphone amp worth a grand with my current finances, just can't. Until I find a buyer, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of it. It's otherworldly. Once things get better, this is the first thing I'm buying back.


----------



## lucianpescaru

GUSTARD said:


> You can ask someone with maintenance experience to ask him to replace the C209 capacitor and change it to 1nf specifications, which can eliminate the problem of continuous beating of the relay.



Can you provide the C209 Farnell UK code? That's where I source the parts. Or at least the smd cap size (eg 803 1206). Thanks.


----------



## GUSTARD

lucianpescaru said:


> Can you provide the C209 Farnell UK code? That's where I source the parts. Or at least the smd cap size (eg 803 1206). Thanks.



The smd cap size is 1206.


----------



## lucianpescaru (Apr 17, 2020)

https://uk.farnell.com/kemet/c1206c102k5ractu/cap-1000pf-50v-10-x7r-1206/dp/1414710?st=1000pf

This one should do.

Edit: Added  C0G / NP0 link as per Gustard's recommandation:

https://uk.farnell.com/kemet/c1206c...5-c0g-np0-1206/dp/1414709?st=1000pf capacitor


----------



## GUSTARD

lucianpescaru said:


> https://uk.farnell.com/kemet/c1206c102k5ractu/cap-1000pf-50v-10-x7r-1206/dp/1414710?st=1000pf
> 
> This one should do.



Can use this one
Recommend the use of C0G / NP0 capacitors


----------



## raoultrifan

Mouser seems to have some: https://ro.mouser.com/Passive-Compo...0x7weZ1yx4atuZ1yx4as7Z1yb9ajrZ1yzs9nvZ1yzmotx

https://ro.mouser.com/ProductDetail...0AnBnWHyRQN7/AA2D2lPPVSDX1FjlRq0IN/6TAwNZWA== seems to be a good part, but please double check.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Well I changed the capacitor to 1nf as per Gustard's recommendation and no more random clicking. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## NoNameNPC

Gustard H16 will be available on shenzhenaudio at this month.


----------



## b0bb

Using the Ticha 994 discrete opamp, quite pleased it was able to fit.
I have ad the H20 for about 2 years.

The extender socket height is adjusted.
I beveled the top edge of the 994 board to ease insertion.
There are no traces near the edge that faces the heatsink.

994 is an large sonic improvement over the stock opamp, better sound staging and bass slam.


----------



## b0bb

The H20 has untapped potential.
15V power supplies uses the 7815 and 7915 regulators.

These are very old, Motorola introduced these in the late 1970s, there are far better alternatives 40+ years down the road.

I have chosen to replace these with discrete regulators from Sparkos, shown with the golden tape covering

It has taken the H20 to new levels of transparency and smoothness.
More importantly it allowed the H20 to make far better use of the Ticha 994 discrete opamp.





-ve 15V Sparkos regulator as it was being mounted.
Fully discrete design




Add insulation, essential given the tight tolerances




Completed install


----------



## b0bb (Dec 5, 2020)

Another mod for the H20 is to replace the primary rectifier diodes with low loss Schottky diodes.
These devices have no switching recovery time and avoids the problem of slow rectifier turn off and recovery.
This causes nasty side effects as the transient current interacts with the transformer inductance causing the output to show ringing instability.

Sonically this makes midrange a lot smoother and removes the high frequency sibilance.

The diodes are IXYS DSS10 chosen for very low leakage, leakage current numbers are a little bit better than the stock 1N5408 unit Gustard used.





Some TBD work to better isolate the diodes.


----------



## slex

Been missing my H20 since Covid. Anyone can figure out why the gain switch is not in advantage?


----------



## Slim1970

b0bb said:


> The H20 has untapped potential.
> 15V power supplies uses the 7815 and 7915 regulators.
> 
> These are very old, Motorola introduced these in the late 1970s, there are far better alternatives 40+ years down the road.
> ...


This is outstanding work. If I still had my H20 I would be inquiring about these mods. I'm all for improving an amps performance.


----------



## b0bb

Slim1970 said:


> This is outstanding work. If I still had my H20 I would be inquiring about these mods. I'm all for improving an amps performance.


Thanks.
Gustard implemented a few good ideas on the amp, the mods will help increase the payoff of the design.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 24, 2020)

The output stage of the H20 is quite beefy, unfortunately the stock H20 has problems driving my Audeze LCD3F.
It lacked top end compared to other amps, overall presentation was muddy and lacked impact.

On a less demanding headphone like the HD800 this was not the case.

H20's reservoir capacitors is one of the bottlenecks, its ripple current capacity is quite low, and it had trouble keeping with the instantaneous demand from the LCD3F

I replaced the stock 3300uF Nichicon KGs with 4700uF TDK Epcos B41231. Ripple current capacity is 4.5x better.

The result was a considerable lift in top end performance on the LCD3F, much better punch and bass slam.
All this without affecting low end performance or causing sibilance issues on the HD800.





0.1uF RIFA PHE450 Metallized Polypropylene bypass, replacing the stock WIMA MKS Mylar Caps.


----------



## b0bb

Technical parameter comparison of the stock Nichicon vs Epcos

Nichicon LKG, 1.75 peak current delivery


 

Epcos B41231. 7.58A peak current capability


----------



## b0bb

This set of mods replaces the existing Mylar bypass caps with WIMA polypropylene caps (green boxes).
Polypropylene supply bypasscaps help sharpen the midrange focus of the amp
Transients from percussion type instruments much improved.


----------



## b0bb

Rework of the insulation arrangements around the Schottky diodes.


----------



## Slim1970

Wow, @b0bb that is some great work. I can only imagine what the H20 sounds like now. Outstanding job!


----------



## b0bb

Slim1970 said:


> Wow, @b0bb that is some great work. I can only imagine what the H20 sounds like now. Outstanding job!


Thanks.


----------



## lucianpescaru

The 7815 and 7915 need to be heatsink insulated? Or do they work without insulation?


----------



## b0bb

lucianpescaru said:


> The 7815 and 7915 need to be heatsink insulated? Or do they work without insulation?


The Sparkos regulators do not require insulation.
Gustard did not use any insulation on the stock units on my H20


----------



## lucianpescaru

Well, thermal grease should do.


----------



## b0bb

Yes, just clean off the existing grease and apply a new layer


----------



## raoultrifan

Should work without insulation, but what would be the odds to make a short-circuit between two nearby regulators without having a proper insulation in place?


----------



## b0bb (Dec 28, 2020)

raoultrifan said:


> Should work without insulation, but what would be the odds to make a short-circuit between two nearby regulators without having a proper insulation in place?



Zero with the Sparkos shown in the photo.

Fully insulated transistor no exposed metal facing heatsink on the Sparkos, black plastic package.
Original unit from on my H20 used the JRC 7815 and JRC 7915 which is also fully insulated

In this very specific instance, insulating an already insulated transistor could lead to overheating.
The stock heatsink is quite small and if you are running an opamp like the Ticha 994 with increased current draw, the regulators will run hotter.
There are 2 regulators sharing that 1 heatsink.


----------



## ezduzit2500

Hi all. I'm thinking of jumping on a good condition, used H20, for a good price. I currently have a Topping a90 driving Hifiman Arya. Not 100% satisfied w/ a90, decent soundstage width and some depth but soft-ish up top and some micro or inner details seem "masked".  Q-1: What may I gain as far as sound quality if I choose to purchase H20?  Q-2: How does H20 sound compared to a90? Any experiences are welcome...


----------



## shenzhenaudio

ezduzit2500 said:


> Hi all. I'm thinking of jumping on a good condition, used H20, for a good price. I currently have a Topping a90 driving Hifiman Arya. Not 100% satisfied w/ a90, decent soundstage width and some depth but soft-ish up top and some micro or inner details seem "masked".  Q-1: What may I gain as far as sound quality if I choose to purchase H20?  Q-2: How does H20 sound compared to a90? Any experiences are welcome...


H20 has a stable sound, a slightly warm, and a powerful thrust!


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Dec 29, 2020)

shenzhenaudio said:


> H20 has a stable sound, a slightly warm, and a powerful thrust!


Thank you for your response. How are the treble details and sound stage? The a90 sometimes masks small details in the music - triangles, bells, etc - and doesn't sound as "open", transparent, or natural as some others. Emotiva a-100 and Schiit Magni 3+ as examples...


----------



## ezduzit2500

Anyone else have any comments or observations on the H20's overall sound quality. I understand "slightly warm", but does that also mean closed-in soundstage and missing details?


----------



## ezduzit2500

I went ahead and bought the H20 and it should be here by next week. I'm excited, as this is my first ever experience with Gustard. Hoping for good things moving forward. Will keep you posted...


----------



## ezduzit2500

My H20 is on the way... Holiday shipping delays victim. Keep you all posted when it does.


----------



## slex

ezduzit2500 said:


> Anyone else have any comments or observations on the H20's overall sound quality. I understand "slightly warm", but does that also mean closed-in soundstage and missing details?


Depends of synergy with equipment. My primary equipment is LPS powering it.


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Jan 5, 2021)

slex said:


> Depends of synergy with equipment. My primary equipment is LPS powering it.


Streaming Tidal MQA to SMSL su-9 which is pretty neutral with a very very slight warmth. I mean it's transparent but also not harsh as some ESS based DACs have been in the past. Replacing Topping a90 with Gustard h20, driving Hifiman Arya cans. With Arya I could tell that the a90 had a midbass emphasis and a soft, sort of closed-in upper treble and not so "open" presentation. Not as revealing or natural sounding as I'd hoped.


----------



## slex

ezduzit2500 said:


> Streaming Tidal MQA to SMSL su-9 which is pretty neutral with a very very slight warmth. I mean it's transparent but not harsh as some ESS based DACs have been. Replacing Topping a90 with Gustard h20. Driving Hifiman Arya cans. With Arya I could tell that the a90 had a midbass emphasis and a soft, sort of closed-in upper treble and not so "open" presentation. Not as revealing or natural sounding as I'd hoped.


Not familiar with your equipment, my secondary is power cable😊


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Jan 7, 2021)

Just rec'd my H20 unit today. Got a good deal, used. I'm impressed with this amp. Stock sounds good, a li'l thick in the midbass and soft-ish in the uppermost treble, still good though, wide SS. I've got a few op amps on hand that I've experimented with. Ne5532p's, opa2134pa's, and Muses8920's. The '5532s slightly narrow the SS and brightens it, making the amp sound "stark". The ti '2134s present a good balance between a wide SS, clear and detailed vocals and instrumentation, depth, and spatial cues. I haven't put in the Muses yet. I like this amp, it's very natural and transparent, could have more gain though...


----------



## In1unison

ezduzit2500 said:


> Just rec'd my H20 unit today. Got a good deal, used. I'm impressed with this amp. Stock sounds good, a li'l thick in the midbass and soft-ish in the uppermost treble, still good though, wide SS. I've got a few op amps on hand that I've experimented with. Ne5532p's, opa2134pa's, and Muses8920's. The '5532s slightly narrow the SS and brightens it, making the amp sound "stark". The ti '2134s present a good balance between a wide SS, clear and detailed vocals and instrumentation, depth, and spatial cues. I haven't put in the Muses yet. I like this amp, it's very natural and transparent, could have more gain though...



https://sparkoslabs.com/reviews/gustard-h20-and-ss3602-discrete-op-amp/


----------



## ezduzit2500

In1unison said:


> https://sparkoslabs.com/reviews/gustard-h20-and-ss3602-discrete-op-amp/


Yeah I read that review when I was trying to decide between Sparkos or Burson v6 vivid for the H20. I'm playing the Sparkos in now. I did a mini shootout between the stock 49720, Muses 8920, and 2134's. For me the 2134s struck the best balance between detail, SS, and immediacy and realism of vocals and instruments. Compared to the opa2134pa's the Sparkos take all those characteristics up a notch or two. Fresh out of the box they were a tad brighter but after a few hours the aggressiveness subsided and the bass came fleshed out. The Sparkos make my Anandas closer to my Aryas. Can't wait til my replacement Arya set comes this week. I still may get the Bursons some time in the future though.


----------



## ezduzit2500

b0bb said:


> Using the Ticha 994 discrete opamp, quite pleased it was able to fit.
> I have ad the H20 for about 2 years.
> 
> The extender socket height is adjusted.
> ...


How would the Sonic Imageries compare with the Sparkos or Bursons? I got the Sparkos but I may get Burson v6 vivids or the Sonic Imageries next but would like to hear from those who have either, both, or all three.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Cycle a few pages back.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 17, 2021)

ezduzit2500 said:


> How would the Sonic Imageries compare with the Sparkos or Bursons? I got the Sparkos but I may get Burson v6 vivids or the Sonic Imageries next but would like to hear from those who have either, both, or all three.


I have Sparkos and V5, V6 Vivid Bursons in my collection as well,  I am using the Ticha994 the others are good in specific areas like bass slam, sound staging.

Ticha994 is the best balanced, I find the others only match the Ticha994  in specific areas but not exceed its performance

Sparkos is very dynamic with large soundstage, very fast bass, can come across as cold and sterile.
The Bursons have a much warmer midrange but muddies fine details, have to really listen hard for the microdetails.

Ticha 994 has the warmth without sacrificing the microdetail and soundstage.
It will take the stock H20 right up to its performance limit.


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Jan 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> I have Sparkos and V5, V6 Vivid Bursons in my collection as well,  I am using the Ticha994 the others are good in specific areas like bass slam, sound staging.
> 
> Ticha994 is the best balanced, I find the others only match the Ticha994  in specific areas but not exceed its performance
> 
> ...


Your impressions have peaked my interest in the 'Sonics a little bit more. I believe I may be able to squeeze a tad more out of the H20. Chasing the last 5% could be folly or eureka!!!, haha .  I'm going to spend a little more time with the Sparkos because I just got them. I don't want to just throw money at the "problem" when there really isn't one. But that's how I'm caught up in this hobby, chasing the best SQ w/o draining the bank. I must be the only one... BTW, what cans do you have?


----------



## b0bb

ezduzit2500 said:


> Your impressions have peaked my interest in the 'Sonics a little bit more. I believe I may be able to squeeze a tad more out of the H20. Chasing the last 5% could be folly or eureka!!!, haha .  I'm going to spend a little more time with the Sparkos because I just got them. I don't want to just throw money at the "problem" when there really isn't one. But that's how I'm caught up in this hobby, chasing the best SQ w/o draining the bank. I must be the only one... BTW, what cans do you have?


I use the H20 with the HD800 and LCD3F


----------



## ezduzit2500

Update to anyone listening. I've had the Sparkos in the H20 for almost a couple of weeks. I just got my Aryas back from repair a few days ago and am burning in the new driver with pink noise to tonally match the other one (Anandas back to the shelf). This also helps with burning in the Sparkos I can wholeheartedly say that H20 with Sparkos improves on the Topping A90 I previously tried. Not by a mile, but by a fair good margin. The main differences being tonality, detail, and realism, if not absolute power. Voices, instruments, and soundstage cues are just more natural, less solid state sounding. I _may _try out Sonic Imageries next month though, just to see the effects.


----------



## ezduzit2500

P.S.


b0bb said:


> The H20 has untapped potential.
> 15V power supplies uses the 7815 and 7915 regulators.
> 
> These are very old, Motorola introduced these in the late 1970s, there are far better alternatives 40+ years down the road.
> ...





b0bb said:


> The H20 has untapped potential.
> 15V power supplies uses the 7815 and 7915 regulators.
> 
> These are very old, Motorola introduced these in the late 1970s, there are far better alternatives 40+ years down the road.
> ...


What does it take to do the actual replacement of these regulators? How difficult is it, ie: is it any soldering involved with the H20?


----------



## b0bb

ezduzit2500 said:


> P.S.
> 
> 
> What does it take to do the actual replacement of these regulators? How difficult is it, ie: is it any soldering involved with the H20?


The stock regulators have to be removed by desoldering them from the board.

The adjacent heatsink fins have to be ground down to add more clearance for the new regulator


----------



## ezduzit2500

b0bb said:


> The stock regulators have to be removed by desoldering them from the board.
> 
> The adjacent heatsink fins have to be ground down to add more clearance for the new regulator


Thanks for the reply. That amount of modification is out of my pay grade for the time being, as I just moved and I don't have room for much extra gear. If it was plug n play I would try it.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 11, 2021)

Neutrik metal framed connectors.
These have metal inserts facing the chassis for more consistent  grounding for the XLR connector shields.

This minimizes RF ingress into the H20, this improves midrange smoothness in the presence of RF noise.

Extra metal fingers in the sockets make sure the XLR plug is grounded at multiple points

Note: This is for the shield ground not signal ground.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 11, 2021)

Replace red WIMA 1uF mylar caps with 1uF Polyphenylene Sulphide (PPS) caps.
These are nearly as good as Polypropylene (PP) but available in larger values.

Effect similar to PP, transient spearing considerably reduced.
White caps in the picture.


----------



## b0bb

Magnetic shielding sheets (silver grey panels on right)

Reduces the magnetic pickup by the opamp when the volume control is operated.

Less clicks induced on the signal when turning the volume knob.


----------



## b0bb

Replace diodes on preamp  bridge rectifiers, swap regular silicon diodes with schottky diodes.

Schottky diodes have very low switching noise, removing this source of noise takes off the graininess in the midrange.

Before. (D70, D68 etc)





After


----------



## b0bb

180uF local bypass electrolytics.
Brown caps under board, improves power availability to amp stage.

Bass tightness and speed improved with this change.


----------



## NoNameNPC

b0bb said:


> 180uF local bypass electrolytics.
> Brown caps under board, improves power availability to amp stage.
> 
> Bass tightness and speed improved with this change.


Can you send link on this brown caps and white caps?


----------



## slex

b0bb said:


> 180uF local bypass electrolytics.
> Brown caps under board, improves power availability to amp stage.
> 
> Bass tightness and speed improved with this change.


I like wat you did to your Frankenamped H20, after covid and travel free, will experienced it.☺️👍


----------



## b0bb

NoNameNPC said:


> Can you send link on this brown caps and white caps?


https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...500ell181mh20d/?qs=48xh8PjiJp58S/ljQWdc%2bQ==


----------



## NoNameNPC

b0bb said:


> Replace diodes on preamp  bridge rectifiers, swap regular silicon diodes with schottky diodes.
> 
> Schottky diodes have very low switching noise, removing this source of noise takes off the graininess in the midrange.
> 
> ...


Can you send link on diodes? Thx.


----------



## b0bb

NoNameNPC said:


> Can you send link on diodes? Thx.


https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/vishay/v8pa22-m3-h/?qs=BJlw7L4Cy78sySmQZ%2biykA==


----------



## ezduzit2500

Hi all, just checking in. My opinion of the H20 is still pretty good with the short time I've owned it. With that said, I feel the bass could be a little tighter and more defined sometimes. I've got Sparkos ss3602 opamps installed, maybe will try Sonic Imagery 994's, are they tighter in the bass. I'm not equipped nor do I have the on-hand _recent _experience to do all of the mods of the last few pages. Any thoughts on the opamps, Sparkos vs Sonic Imagery?


----------



## migo

Hi, I've got used H20 and are experiencing hum coming from transformers, it resonates the chassis, but can't be heard in headphones itself. But it is annoying at night, it is loud to hear it from 2m away. Is anybody experiencing it too?

Thank you!


----------



## ProLoL

migo said:


> Hi, I've got used H20 and are experiencing hum coming from transformers, it resonates the chassis, but can't be heard in headphones itself. But it is annoying at night, it is loud to hear it from 2m away. Is anybody experiencing it too?
> 
> Thank you!


I've heard the transformers on the A20H does the same, it's their modified transformer.


----------



## migo

ProLoL said:


> I've heard the transformers on the A20H does the same, it's their modified transformer.


Interesting that no one in this thread had complained about it. I only want to know if it is "normal" with Gustard H20, I don't want to give bad reputation to the seller if it is common manufacturer flaw. Thank you!


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Jun 26, 2021)

migo said:


> Interesting that no one in this thread had complained about it. I only want to know if it is "normal" with Gustard H20, I don't want to give bad reputation to the seller if it is common manufacturer flaw. Thank you!


If possible, contact Gustard....or search for a replacement XFMR from Parts Express, Mouser, etc. There could also be an easy fix, though you'd have to search around the internet. Hope you are able to fix it or get it fixed, it's really a very decent HP amp. Maybe try plugging it into a different outlet or by itself. May help.


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi, I've got used H20 and are experiencing hum coming from transformers, it resonates the chassis, but can't be heard in headphones itself. But it is annoying at night, it is loud to hear it from 2m away. Is anybody experiencing it too?
> 
> Thank you!


Buzzing in a toroidal transformer can be caused by DC in the power line. 
This does not include the buzzing at turn on.

Powerlines can sometimes can unbalanced, homes use 1 phase of a 3 phase powerline, if the power draw on the 3 phases is not equal the unbalance can happen.
DC and powerline harmonics are the result.

I have my H20 conneced via isolation transformers.
My isolation transformers can buzz because of this, most of it stopped when I put in a line filter that takes out the harmonics.

If it is a DC issue there are boxes to eliminate DC from the power going to your audio equipment.


----------



## ezduzit2500

b0bb said:


> Buzzing in a toroidal transformer can be caused by DC in the power line.
> This does not include the buzzing at turn on.
> 
> Powerlines can sometimes can unbalanced, homes use 1 phase of a 3 phase powerline, if the power draw on the 3 phases is not equal the unbalance can happen.
> ...


Good post B. I looked it up after my earlier post. Went to Emotiva's website and others. Glad that there's a simple solution if I ever need it. Thnx.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> Buzzing in a toroidal transformer can be caused by DC in the power line.
> This does not include the buzzing at turn on.


Hi @b0bb, thank you for your answer! It starts buzzing immediately after turning my unit on. I've tried to connect it to another phase in house (I have all 3 phases connected) with the same result.


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, thank you for your answer! It starts buzzing immediately after turning my unit on. I've tried to connect it to another phase in house (I have all 3 phases connected) with the same result.


This is powerconditioner I use, it is just a large toroidal isolation transformer.

https://www.powervar.com/products/power-conditioners/gpi-series-1-power-conditioners.
If it is problem is from the powerline then this will start buzzing instead of your H20.

It stops DC and reduces the harmonics going to the H20.
Buzzing is the transformer's way of dealing with the powerline harmonics.

If you have other connected audio equipment with toroidal transformers in them and they do not buzz, the transformer in your H20 may be defective.


----------



## raoultrifan

Just take it into a different home, perhaps in a different neighbourhood too and see if it does the same. What are the odds to have the same DC voltage on a different home few km/miles away from your place? If it will do the same, then maybe the transformer has an issue or the internal power regulators are drawing too much power out of the transformer; if so, then something inside your H20 might be the culprit. You may also use a cheap 3-pole-plug power reading device to check the current/power drawn by the H20 with volume to the min. and with the volume to normal listening levels too.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> This is powerconditioner I use, it is just a large toroidal isolation transformer.
> 
> https://www.powervar.com/products/power-conditioners/gpi-series-1-power-conditioners.
> If it is problem is from the powerline then this will start buzzing instead of your H20.
> ...


Thank you for your suggestions. I understand use case for isolation transformers, they care for galvanic isolation with consequence of advantages. Yes, I have connected more devices to the same power outlet/phase and this is only one with issues. Original owner says it has slight hum but for may taste it is loud when I can clearly hear it from 2m away. :/ Device is new and unused, original owner had two, one silver one black, so one must go. He also says that Gustars starts poking with transformers used and is using now second grade technical transformers not intended for audio use...


----------



## migo

raoultrifan said:


> Just take it into a different home, perhaps in a different neighbourhood too and see if it does the same. What are the odds to have the same DC voltage on a different home few km/miles away from your place? If it will do the same, then maybe the transformer has an issue or the internal power regulators are drawing too much power out of the transformer; if so, then something inside your H20 might be the culprit. You may also use a cheap 3-pole-plug power reading device to check the current/power drawn by the H20 with volume to the min. and with the volume to normal listening levels too.


Hi, thank you for suggestion. I'll try it connected to UPS APC Smart 700 to see if it makes any difference.


----------



## migo

One more question, is anybody here using H20 with Douk SA200 OP amps? I'm considering to change stock OP AMPs for Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha or Douk SA200 amps. Thank you for your opinions.


----------



## migo

hi @b00b! I like your mods on H20 presented here. If you can sort those mod by importance/SQ impact what will be your chart please? thank you!


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> One more question, is anybody here using H20 with Douk SA200 OP amps? I'm considering to change stock OP AMPs for Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh-Ticha or Douk SA200 amps. Thank you for your opinions.


I used the Sparkos ss3602 with good results. They took a while to settle, they were bright with transients at first. Now they sound nice when they warm up while playing music. I'm looking on trying the Sonic Imageries eventually. Let us know about the sa200's when you install them.


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> hi @b00b! I like your mods on H20 presented here. If you can sort those mod by importance/SQ impact what will be your chart please? thank you!


Start with the following
1) IXYS schottky diode mod
2) Epcos filter capacitor mod.

Once you will have done this you will get a much better feel on the complexity of the job.

If you are confident proceed with replacing the voltage regulators with the Sparkos units.


----------



## migo (Aug 25, 2021)

Hi, new Talema replacement transformers arrived today, installed them and now is my amp dead quiet, no humm!  Original transformers installed in H20 was Talema labeled too, but those are fakes and not audio dedicated one, but cheap generic transformers. New original Talema is down on the picture and Gustard fake one is up.
Maybe it can make sound of the amp even better too, but I doubt I can hear the change. Maybe mains noise measured by ASR went down who knows...

EDIT: After communicating with Talema representative and clarifying: those transformers installed by Gustard are not fake, but only generic transformers not suitable for audio devices. It seems this is fault of bad comunication between Talema and Gustard or cost saving purpose on Gustard side.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Was the hum mechanical noise or audible through headphones?


----------



## migo

lucianpescaru said:


> Was the hum mechanical noise or audible through headphones?


Only mechanical, some loose windings I suppose... But it was audible in 2m away in silent parts of music while listening at night. That bothered me a lot.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 24, 2021)

New OPA1656 opamp from TI.
Was not expecting much from a 3USD device.
Mouser and Digikey stock this part.

Performance was an unexpected surprise, it challenged the Ticha 994 for top performance spot on the H20.
Main advantage is much cooler running compared to the 994.

Quite easily surpassed the performance of the Sparkos.






Mounted on the H20


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Only mechanical, some loose windings I suppose... But it was audible in 2m away in silent parts of music while listening at night. That bothered me a lot.


Wow, glad you got that sorted out. Did it cost a lot for the XFMRs? Was installation difficult?


----------



## ezduzit2500

b0bb said:


> New OPA1656 opamp from TI.
> Was not expecting much from a 3USD device.
> Mouser and Digikey stock this part.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm thinking of getting the '994s sometime. The Sparkos ss3602 sometimes sounds slightly _tilted up _in the treble. Sharp and pronounced transients (Sss, Ttt) on some songs until they get good and toasty warm from playing constantly for about 20-30 mins. After that time they seem to mellow and get really transparent.


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> Wow, glad you got that sorted out. Did it cost a lot for the XFMRs? Was installation difficult?


Thank you, Installation is very easy = unplugging old transformers, lose two screws, replace transformers, tighten screws and plug new transformers. Price was nearly 300EUR for two transformers with shipping.


----------



## b0bb

ezduzit2500 said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking of getting the '994s sometime. The Sparkos ss3602 sometimes sounds slightly _tilted up _in the treble. Sharp and pronounced transients (Sss, Ttt) on some songs until they get good and toasty warm from playing constantly for about 20-30 mins. After that time they seem to mellow and get really transparent.


I find my ss3602s mellow out after being left on overnight or longer, not too great when running up from a cold state.


----------



## GUSTARD

migo said:


> Hi, new Talema replacement transformers arrived today, installed them and now is my amp dead quiet, no humm!  Original transformers installed in H20 was Talema labeled too, but those are fakes and not audio dedicated one, but cheap generic transformers. New original Talema is down on the picture and Gustard fake one is up.
> Maybe it can make sound of the amp even better too, but I doubt I can hear the change. Maybe mains noise measured by ASR went down who knows...
> 
> EDIT: After communicating with Talema representative and clarifying: those transformers installed by Gustard are not fake, but only generic transformers not suitable for audio devices. It seems this is fault of bad comunication between Talema and Gustard or cost saving purpose on Gustard side.



All the parts used by Gustard were from legal dealers. All of our Talema transformers were bought from RS, attached is the receipt of this type of transformers. 
BTW, from Talema' website, we did not find any description about 'suitable for audio devices or not'.

https://rsonline.cn/web/p/products/2575045/








We can choose parts from different brands, but we will never use fake ones in our products.


----------



## migo

GUSTARD said:


> All the parts used by Gustard were from legal dealers. All of our Talema transformers were bought from RS, attached is the receipt of this type of transformers.
> BTW, from Talema' website, we did not find any description about 'suitable for audio devices or not'.
> 
> https://rsonline.cn/web/p/products/2575045/
> ...


Hi @GUSTARD, thank you for your reaction and clarification. But from where you got audio dedicated toroidal transformer description? Transformer model used in my H20 is not that! It is generic technical general purpose transformer nothing more! Have you contacted Talema representative directly? They build transformers for other high end audio companies too, so they can build audio dedicated transformers fr you!

Don't get me wrong, I like your products and recently purchased your X26Pro DAC, but I'm disappointed by your customer support. My H20 unit had humming transformers and support said that is OK, all within the specification! Really? For 900EUR high end audio device? I was forced to buy proper audio grade dedicated  transformers that resolves this humm issue.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> New OPA1656 opamp from TI.
> Was not expecting much from a 3USD device.
> Mouser and Digikey stock this part.
> 
> ...


Hi @b0bb, Can you compare Ticha with this new Ti please? In what SQ areas are main differences and how big? Thank you!


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, Can you compare Ticha with this new Ti please? In what SQ areas are main differences and how big? Thank you!


It brings the 90% benefits of the Ticha minus the heat and high cost
-Very Big and deep soundstage
-Hard hitting bass
-Bass goes down very low, very nice with planars.
-Sweet midrange, I can listen to that thing all day and not end up fatigued.
-No overshoot on transients, meaning no tizzyness on the high notes that can ruin EDM type tracks.

To see the full benefit of the low bass you probably need to put in the EPCOS caps, the low end handling is much better than the stock Nichicon.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> It brings the 90% benefits of the Ticha minus the heat and high cost
> -Very Big and deep soundstage
> -Hard hitting bass
> -Bass goes down very low, very nice with planars.
> ...


Thank you @b0bb for detailed comparison. I've ordered two of this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223706588510 and hope that will be OK. Unfortunately no EPCOS caps on store nowhere here.  For now I can change only Schottky diodes and RIFA and WIMA caps. Is change of voltage regulators necessary for this pair of OP amps? 

BTW. I like the sound of stock setup, bass is deep and very controlled with respect, mid-range is smooth and treble is very crisp, airy and detailed. Wondering how will all this change with newer OP amps, or if I will be able to hear that difference at my usual listening level? (DAC volume attenutaion is on 0 dB and amp volume is on fifth step (of 64?) from zero)


----------



## b0bb (Aug 28, 2021)

migo said:


> Thank you @b0bb for detailed comparison. I've ordered two of this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223706588510 and hope that will be OK. Unfortunately no EPCOS caps on store nowhere here.  For now I can change only Schottky diodes and RIFA and WIMA caps. Is change of voltage regulators necessary for this pair of OP amps?
> 
> BTW. I like the sound of stock setup, bass is deep and very controlled with respect, mid-range is smooth and treble is very crisp, airy and detailed. Wondering how will all this change with newer OP amps, or if I will be able to hear that difference at my usual listening level? (DAC volume attenutaion is on 0 dB and amp volume is on fifth step (of 64?) from zero)


If you are concerned about a counterfeit from that marketplace, test the idle current of the opamp when you get it, that will tell you if you have a fake.

Harder to tell are genuine opmps that are the factory rejects, less than honest dealers resell these on the gray market instead of destroying them.

The regulators have very high transient current delivery capability, they are necessary to handle demanding loads like the Audeze LCD3.
Stock H20 is a bit of a wimpy limp noodle, unable to extract the necessary dynamic impact the LCD3s are capable of.
EPCOS caps are the other part of the equation to fix this.

The schottky's help reduce the stored charge problems when the rectifier changes state.
This stored charge interacts with the transformer inductance and causes ringing.
I found a reduction in the topend tizzyness with this change.

This is most apparent on the Sennheiser HD800 which tends to amplify these type of problems.

Before, the sinewave is really distorted. Vertical section is the abrupt turn on of the conventional diode




Closeup of the ringing





Schottky diode,  greatly reduced ringing, the sinewave is less distorted meaning less harmonic junk going into the H20 regulator.


----------



## migo (Sep 1, 2021)

b0bb said:


> If you are concerned about a counterfeit from that marketplace, test the idle current of the opamp when you get it, that will tell you if you have a fake.
> 
> Harder to tell are genuine opmps that are the factory rejects, less than honest dealers resell these on the gray market instead of destroying them.
> 
> ...


Hi @b0bb , thank you for detailed explanation of diode change impact.  I've ordered 8pcs from here: https://www.conrad.sk/p/ixys-schott...da-dss10-006a-to-220ac-60-v-jednotlive-160745 Hope that's the exact model you have used. Have you drilled new holes to fit diodes, or there are hidden mounting holes under original diodes that fits new one? EDIT: I've just looked at photo of PCB with bypass caps, there I can see those additional holes for diodes. 

Maybe transformers change had sound impact too, I think upper mids and treble are way smoother not so harsh to me now. Original poster of this mod had similar observations.


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb , thank you for detailed explanation of diode change impact.  I've ordered 8pcs from here: https://www.conrad.sk/p/ixys-schott...da-dss10-006a-to-220ac-60-v-jednotlive-160745 Hope that's the exact model you have used. Have you drilled new holes to fit diodes, or there are hidden mounting holes under original diodes that fits new one? EDIT: I've just looked at photo of PCB with bypass caps, there I can see those additional holes for diodes.
> 
> Maybe transformers change had sound impact too, I think upper mids and treble are way smoother not so harsh to me now. Original poster of this mod had similar observations.


That is the correct part number for the diodes.


----------



## migo

My OPA1656 with DIP socket insert arrived today. Looks OK to me, what do you think @b0bb?


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> My OPA1656 with DIP socket insert arrived today. Looks OK to me, what do you think @b0bb?



Try it on the H20 and let us know.


----------



## ezduzit2500

I'm hopefully going to be able to try out some of Burson's opamps. I'll post my impressions if it comes to pass.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> Try it on the H20 and let us know.


Installed...


----------



## migo (Sep 19, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Try it on the H20 and let us know.


Hi @b0bb, one strange thing. After OP amp switch there is no sound from amp after power on until I move with volume up or down. Is it the same with you? 

Is this pn correct:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/2098628

Thank you.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 19, 2021)

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, one strange thing. After OP amp switch there is no sound from amp after power on until I move with volume up or down. Is it the same with you?
> 
> Is this pn correct:
> 
> ...


I get the "_no-sound until you turn the volume knob_"  issue intermittently (once every few months), if you are getting this on every powerup that is not normal.
Check the wires to the volume pot is properly seated on its pcb connector

The RS link is the correct cap.
Double check the details here, the link to the one I bought from Mouser
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/epcos-tdk/b41231a6478m000/?qs=qPUKiRLrJPEv7xmtt5dRZA==

To get the best use out of the EPCOS caps, get the headphone to draw more power from the H20.
One way is to apply EQ to the phone, typically bass is boosted.

Check out AutoEq, it is a software package to equalize the headphone.
It is not the run-of-the-mill EQ package, it takes the measured impulse response of the headphone and applies EQ.
The database contains hundreds of measurements for headphones out there.

I use the impulse response files for my HD800 and LCD3 and use it in HQplayer.
Here is an example of the LCD3 data, impulse response is the .wav audio file

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990/harman_over-ear_2018/Audeze LCD-3


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> I get the "_no-sound until you turn the volume knob_"  issue intermittently (once every few months), if you are getting this on every powerup that is not normal.
> Check the wires to the volume pot is properly seated on its pcb connector
> 
> The RS link is the correct cap.
> ...


Hi @b0bb, thank you for your suggestions and advises! I really appreciate them. 

Problem with no sound after power up resolved itself after few days... hmmm. will see what will happen. 

Epcos capacitors are by customs now and I'm waiting for delivery. 

I'm not after Harman curve, I find it to bass heavy and unresolving.  Qudelix5k has support for EQ and autoeq tried it and disabled it.  I'm trying to avoid EQ when possible. HFM Arya FR curve is not prefect but I like its sound from H20.

Now I'm listening to OP1656 OP AMPs and trying to make my conclusion on it  It sounds different that default OP AMPs.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 30, 2021)

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, thank you for your suggestions and advises! I really appreciate them.
> 
> Problem with no sound after power up resolved itself after few days... hmmm. will see what will happen.
> 
> ...


Use another method to draw extra power from the amp , EQ is an easy method.

That said the Kalimba DSP is the Qudelix5k is not doing proper justice to AutoEQ, it is a 15 year old, low cost consumer grade design Qualcomm recycled from CSR.
It has none of the  modern high performance DSP features like vector processing (AVX, Neon) and fused-multiply-add optimizations and is quite slow at 100MHz, tops out at 64 MIPS

Qudelix made mattters worse by making the 32bit device work on 64bit data so it 2x slower than normal, this limits the amount of processing it can perform.

Not surprised at the unpleasant outcome you experienced.

If you are willing to try again, a modern PC. with the proper DSP software gives a better account of AutoEQ's capability like convolution, it is miles ahead of a simple ParametricEQ's capability when provided with sufficient computation resources.
It opens the possibility to add a GPU to bring thousands of high-speed processing cores to the table.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> Use another method to draw extra power from the amp , EQ is an easy method.
> 
> That said the Kalimba DSP is the Qudelix5k is not doing proper justice to AutoEQ, it is a 15 year old, low cost consumer grade design Qualcomm recycled from CSR.
> It has none of the  modern high performance DSP features like vector processing (AVX, Neon) and fused-multiply-add optimizations and is quite slow at 100MHz, tops out at 64 MIPS
> ...


Hi @b0bb, thank you for suggestions  Any suggestions for good DSP SW on Linux? I see you are really well informed and dedicated in this hobby. Epcos caps arrived today. Is it possible to provide me with pns. of WIMA polypropylene caps you changed in your H20? If its OK for you of course. I would like to modify my H20 to get best of it like you. Is there any good alternative to Sparkos voltage regulators you have used? 

Thank you in advance! Kind regards, Milan


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, thank you for suggestions  Any suggestions for good DSP SW on Linux? I see you are really well informed and dedicated in this hobby. Epcos caps arrived today. Is it possible to provide me with pns. of WIMA polypropylene caps you changed in your H20? If its OK for you of course. I would like to modify my H20 to get best of it like you. Is there any good alternative to Sparkos voltage regulators you have used?
> 
> Thank you in advance! Kind regards, Milan


Wima caps are MKP2, Mouser sells them
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP2D031501H00JSSD?qs=ISKKXg98%2B1nrJXk5GuldFQ==

The DSP software I use is HQPlayer Embedded, this is the DSP engine minus the GUI and cutdown library manager.
Free alternatives like SOX exist but I have not been all that satisfied, DSP tuning for audio is a subject matter left to the experts.
HQPlayer is already complicated with its pre-configured filters.

The cost is a reflection on the work the developer is continuing to put into improving the package.

The alternative to Sparkos is Belleson, price is about the same so it depends on who has the bigger sale and when.
Gustard used the 78xx/79xx variant from New Japan Radio (NJR) on my H20, this is already very good.
Need to go to a semi-discrete to beat it.

NJR also makes the MUSES series of audio optimized opamps and volume controllers.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> Wima caps are MKP2, Mouser sells them
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP2D031501H00JSSD?qs=ISKKXg98%2B1nrJXk5GuldFQ==
> 
> The DSP software I use is HQPlayer Embedded, this is the DSP engine minus the GUI and cutdown library manager.
> ...


Hi @b0bb, I need a bit clarification, you replaced 12 pcs. WIMA MKS 0.1uF caps with 8 pcs. WIMA MKP2 0.15uF caps? Or there are some caps mounted on the opposite PCB side that are not seen on your photos?

I wanted to order RIFA PHE450 0.1uF caps, but search only references to KEMET PHE450 caps:

https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/PHE450HA6100JR05?qs=PoZJcSwa6Dx41Jesle6OEQ== 

Can those be used too?

I've searched for voltage regulators, but have hard times to find some Sparkos or Belleson here in EU.  My H20 has installed NJR 78xx/79xx too.

Thank you for your help!

Milan


----------



## b0bb (Oct 13, 2021)

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, I need a bit clarification, you replaced 12 pcs. WIMA MKS 0.1uF caps with 8 pcs. WIMA MKP2 0.15uF caps? Or there are some caps mounted on the opposite PCB side that are not seen on your photos?
> 
> I wanted to order RIFA PHE450 0.1uF caps, but search only references to KEMET PHE450 caps:
> 
> ...


It is a 1:1 replacement, mark out the picture where you think it is missing, it may be on the other side.

RIFA was acquired by Kemet.
The mouser link works.

Get the Sparkos from Audiophonics in France or contact Sparkos directly for the list of resellers in the Eurozone.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/216_sparkos-labs


----------



## migo (Oct 13, 2021)

b0bb said:


> It is a 1:1 replacement, mark out the picture where you think it is missing, it may be on the other side.


here is picture of four caps that are missing on your posted image. Maybe it was image of unfinished work  But want to be sure. 



Change of value from 0.1u to 0.15u is intended?




b0bb said:


> RIFA was acquired by Kemet.
> The mouser link works.





b0bb said:


> Get the Sparkos from Audiophonics in France or contact Sparkos directly for the list of resellers in the Eurozone.
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/216_sparkos-labs


Thank you, I'll try to order them. EDIT: ordered +15 and -15 ones. Thank you for link!

Milan


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> here is picture of four caps that are missing on your posted image. Maybe it was image of unfinished work  But want to be sure.
> 
> Change of value from 0.1u to 0.15u is intended?
> 
> ...


I used 0.15uF, the remaining 4 are on the other side of the board


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> I used 0.15uF, the remaining 4 are on the other side of the board


Thank you @b0bb, I've ordered 0.1uF and 0.15uF too. I'll put 0.15uF in as you first and when will be not satisfied I'll change them for 0.1uF.  Is this increased capacitance responsible for sonic change you described or it is more change of C type to PP?


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Thank you @b0bb, I've ordered 0.1uF and 0.15uF too. I'll put 0.15uF in as you first and when will be not satisfied I'll change them for 0.1uF.  Is this increased capacitance responsible for sonic change you described or it is more change of C type to PP?


The sonic changes is the result of using PP instead of mylar.
I expect 0.1uF vs 0.15uF differences to be minor.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> The sonic changes is the result of using PP instead of mylar.
> I expect 0.1uF vs 0.15uF differences to be minor.


Hi @b0bb. I've received MKP2 PP caps today, but it is a bit different pn. MKP2D031501H00JSSD vs MKP2D031501H00JO00. They are a bit smaller. It should be OK I think, or not? Thank you!


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb. I've received MKP2 PP caps today, but it is a bit different pn. MKP2D031501H00JSSD vs MKP2D031501H00JO00. They are a bit smaller. It should be OK I think, or not? Thank you!


Check WIMA's data sheet for the specifics.
Looks like the same cap to me.


----------



## migo (Oct 23, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Check WIMA's data sheet for the specifics.
> Looks like the same cap to me.


Hi @b0bb! I'm doing on your modification, one more question. Have you changed this two Mylars too, when yes for 0.15uF?

Thank you!


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb! I'm doing on your modification, one more question. Have you changed this two Mylars too, when yes for 0.15uF?
> 
> Thank you!


Yes. I put them on the underside.


----------



## migo (Oct 24, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Yes. I put them on the underside.


Thank you @b0bb I've not changed that two. Hopefully it will not harm that much. All other mods you have published are in. There was no thermal grease under voltage stabilizers in my unit, I've applied under Sparkos generic one.



Not so nice aligned like like you, but works. Your skills are on another level!  I'll let it settle for few days to make conclusions. First impression is that bass slam is better in low volumes I'm listening to.

Thank you for sharing your mods!


----------



## b0bb

migo said:


> Thank you @b0bb I've not changed that two. Hopefully it will not harm that much. All other mods you have published are in. There was no thermal grease under voltage stabilizers in my unit, I've applied under Sparkos generic one.
> 
> Not so nice aligned like like you, but works. Your skills are on another level!  I'll let it settle for few days to make conclusions. First impression is that bass slam is better in low volumes I'm listening to.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your mods!


Give it a few weeks to settle in, the electrolytics especially


----------



## migo

Had anybody used/is using H20 with Susvara? THX!


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Had anybody used/is using H20 with Susvara? THX!


   I wish. I have the Arya Stealth (I traded in my v2's). I also changed out the op amps to Sparkos Labs and now I'm trying out Burson v6 Vivids. Good stuff with the Arya. 
   Isn't the Sus very insensitive? Like, speaker amp insensitive. In that case I don't think the H20 will drive it too well - it tops out at a little over ~2 watts or so with a 4 volt XLR input (per Audio Science Review, if trustworthy or correct), probably more with a 4+ volts balanced input. I turn my Arya up to about ~10:30 - 11:00 on the volume dial, in medium gain and with a ~5.2 volt input from my DAC.


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> I wish. I have the Arya Stealth (I traded in my v2's). I also changed out the op amps to Sparkos Labs and now I'm trying out Burson v6 Vivids. Good stuff with the Arya.
> Isn't the Sus very insensitive? Like, speaker amp insensitive. In that case I don't think the H20 will drive it too well - it tops out at a little over ~2 watts or so with a 4 volt XLR input (per Audio Science Review, if trustworthy or correct), probably more with a 4+ volts balanced input. I turn my Arya up to about ~10:30 - 11:00 on the volume dial, in medium gain and with a ~5.2 volt input from my DAC.


I don't think Susvara is very intensive on H20, it is musical and very smooth sounding, all instruments sound like live and very real. I'm listening to Susvara at 18/64 steps it is about 9:45-10:00 on low gain DAC outputs 5V. I cant get how you can listen at a such high levels with much efficient HP like Arya v3. )
I'm using OP1656 now in H20, for me it brings mids to front a bit, that is not welcomed with HFM cans i think at least for me. Stage may be a bit bigger perceived. 
IDK if measurements on ASR are correct, but I think Amir has enough experience and knowledge to do so.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> I don't think Susvara is very intensive on H20, it is musical and very smooth sounding, all instruments sound like live and very real. I'm listening to Susvara at 18/64 steps it is about 9:45-10:00 on low gain DAC outputs 5V. I cant get how you can listen at a such high levels with much efficient HP like Arya v3. )
> I'm using OP1656 now in H20, for me it brings mids to front a bit, that is not welcomed with HFM cans i think at least for me. Stage may be a bit bigger perceived.
> IDK if measurements on ASR are correct, but I think Amir has enough experience and knowledge to do so.


IDK, we may have different "runs" of the H20, where some running changes may have been made to the gain structure. Mine may be an earlier model. No clue if this is true or not but my gain settings are not that different from on another in volume or drive. I don't listen regularly to extremely loud music but I have been known to up the volume a couple of clicks on some songs - but not to the extreme. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> IDK, we may have different "runs" of the H20, where some running changes may have been made to the gain structure. Mine may be an earlier model. No clue if this is true or not but my gain settings are not that different from on another in volume or drive. I don't listen regularly to extremely loud music but I have been known to up the volume a couple of clicks on some songs - but not to the extreme. 🤷‍♂️


The gain switch is useless on my sample too, between low and high gain is 2dB increase. I thing this is by design on all devices same.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> The gain switch is useless on my sample too, between low and high gain is 2dB increase. I thing this is by design on all devices same.


On mine low gain is _very slightly_ the cleanest. High gain is clean but slightly less smooth (seemingly). I keep it on middle gain to split the difference. Most of the time I listen around 10 o'clock to 10:30 but 11:30 is the loudest I can listen for a short time. When I first got my Arya Stealths I could listen at almost 12:30 but after burn in they've gotten quite a bit easier to drive (120+ hours so far).


----------



## rettib2001

Hi,

I’ve been using the h20 as a preamp lately, feeding into a Hypex class D amp to control volume.

I can’t figure out if in this scenario the signal is affected by the opamps or if the preamp output bypasses them entirely?

I could do with knowing before doing any opamp rolling.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ezduzit2500 (Jan 26, 2022)

rettib2001 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I’ve been using the h20 as a preamp lately, feeding into a Hypex class D amp to control volume.
> 
> ...


The sound goes through the opamps. The stock opamps are okay but discrete opamps bring it up to another level. I bought Sparkos Labs SS-3602 duals and am now auditioning Burson V6 Vivid duals. Good times, Action Jackson...


----------



## rettib2001

ezduzit2500 said:


> The sound goes through the opamps. The stock opamps are okay but discrete opamps bring it up to another level. I bought Sparkos Labs SS-3602 duals and am now auditioning Burson V6 Vivid duals. Good times, Action Jackson...


Precisely the answer I was looking for, thanks!

I’m currently running the Sparkos but when coupled with the Hypex amp it’s a little analytical/sterile sounding.

Think I’ll order a few others.

I’ve actually heard good things about Orange jfet opamps, has anybody tried those?


----------



## ezduzit2500

rettib2001 said:


> Precisely the answer I was looking for, thanks!
> 
> I’m currently running the Sparkos but when coupled with the Hypex amp it’s a little analytical/sterile sounding.
> 
> ...


I could see that happening if the Hypex and your speakers/HPs are dry, sorta bright-ish, and ultra analytical sounding. I listen to the H20 primarily through an SMSL Su-9 DAC and HFM Arya Stealths (I live in an apartment), and the combination of the _neutral but not bright/harsh_ DAC and the _neutral-bright but bass-rich_ HFM Aryas - the neutral but rich-sounding Class A H20 with the revealing but rich Sparkos SS-3602's gives very good _synergy_, to make everthing come together as overall neutral (but not harsh), revealing, and a very _rich, spacious, and spatially impressive_ soundscape. I can't express enough about overall _system synergy. _Bright, bright, bright doesn't fit together too well nor does dark, dark, dark, IMO. It's good to balance out a chain's overall characteristics - neutral, warm, neutral works better if one has a preference toward a _slightly warm _system or neutral, bright, neutral if one leans toward a _slightly brighter_ preference. I have fun slightly changing up the H20's sound characteristics by swapping opamps. If I were you I'd look at either OPA-2134pa IC opamps or the Burson V6 Classics for a different or better timbre. Keep us posted, please.


----------



## ezduzit2500

rettib2001 said:


> Precisely the answer I was looking for, thanks!
> 
> I’m currently running the Sparkos but when coupled with the Hypex amp it’s a little analytical/sterile sounding.
> 
> ...


P.S., Do you notice that the H20 takes at least about ~20-30 from when it's turned on so that it can warm up to sound it's best. Mine sounds sort of thin until it plays for about ~20 minutes and sounds best after it's warm to the touch. The bass really deepens and gets more punchy, the mids get more fleshed out, and the treble smooths and develops good timbre. Likewise with the Sparkos SS-3602's - they are bitingly bright and somewhat sibilant when brand new. Mine took about 2 months to really smooth out and bloom, somewhat the same with the Bursons, they also took about a month themselves to smooth out in the treble. I've noticed the same phenomenon with other discrete components and even some IC opamps, but to lesser degrees (Magni 3+, opa2134's, Muses 8920's). Happy listening.


----------



## rettib2001

ezduzit2500 said:


> P.S., Do you notice that the H20 takes at least about ~20-30 from when it's turned on so that it can warm up to sound it's best. Mine sounds sort of thin until it plays for about ~20 minutes and sounds best after it's warm to the touch. The bass really deepens and gets more punchy, the mids get more fleshed out, and the treble smooths and develops good timbre. Likewise with the Sparkos SS-3602's - they are bitingly bright and somewhat sibilant when brand new. Mine took about 2 months to really smooth out and bloom, somewhat the same with the Bursons, they also took about a month themselves to smooth out in the treble. I've noticed the same phenomenon with other discrete components and even some IC opamps, but to lesser degrees (Magni 3+, opa2134's, Muses 8920's). Happy listening.


Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough answer.

I couldn't agree more about system synergy, that could be contributing to my situation. following your advice I actually swapped in an R2R dac (Musician Pegasus) and the sound is already less fatiguing than with my previous ESS based one.

I've left the H20 powered on for the last 24hours and the sound is less jarring so I think your point about needing to warm up holds true.

I have a pair of the OPA1656 opamps previously mentioned in this thread on the way so that I can compare.

I think I'm on the right path now!


----------



## migo

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough answer.
> 
> I couldn't agree more about system synergy, that could be contributing to my situation. following your advice I actually swapped in an R2R dac (Musician Pegasus) and the sound is already less fatiguing than with my previous ESS based one.
> 
> ...


I'm really curios about your opinion about OPA1656 opamps, I've them installed now in my H20.


----------



## rettib2001

migo said:


> I'm really curios about your opinion about OPA1656 opamps, I've them installed now in my H20.



I’ll let you know as soon as they arrive!

What have you compared them to so far?


----------



## ezduzit2500

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough answer.
> 
> I couldn't agree more about system synergy, that could be contributing to my situation. following your advice I actually swapped in an R2R dac (Musician Pegasus) and the sound is already less fatiguing than with my previous ESS based one.
> 
> ...


I usually leave mine on 24/7. I switch to an unused input, then switch to lowest gain (if I have it in med gain), and then I turn the volume all the way on. I leave it on to shorten warm-up time and to lower the stress on the inner components' solder joints from the turn on/turn off cycles. With the source selector switched to an unconnected input and the gain and volume turned all the way down - it stays slightly warm but the Class A circuitry doesn't use too much electricity.


----------



## migo

rettib2001 said:


> I’ll let you know as soon as they arrive!
> 
> What have you compared them to so far?


Only to stock OP amps. I'll need to sell my H20 later due to Susvara.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Only to stock OP amps. I'll need to sell my H20 later due to Susvara.


If I didn't have mine I'd buy yours. Plus yours is modded to a greater degree than mine. I'm sure whoever buys it will be satisfied - it really is a good sounding amp - very quiet and has good timbre and soundstaging. Sure you don't wanna keep it for backup or preamp duties?


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> If I didn't have mine I'd buy yours. Plus yours is modded to a greater degree than mine. I'm sure whoever buys it will be satisfied - it really is a good sounding amp - very quiet and has good timbre and soundstaging. Sure you don't wanna keep it for backup or preamp duties?


This is another possibility to use it as preamp. But I don't want to have many "boxes" around and need to fund new amp too. All depends on how good will THR-1 sound compared to H20. Yes, my one is modded and with true audio transformers and with AryaV2 and HEkSE it was excellent pairing but Susie needs more power for best dynamics, or maybe not and that is all what can Susie output. THR-1 will give me that answer. Dealer promised that THR-1 will arrive next week, I'm waiting one month already.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> This is another possibility to use it as preamp. But I don't want to have many "boxes" around and need to fund new amp too. All depends on how good will THR-1 sound compared to H20. Yes, my one is modded and with true audio transformers and with AryaV2 and HEkSE it was excellent pairing but Susie needs more power for best dynamics, or maybe not and that is all what can Susie output. THR-1 will give me that answer. Dealer promised that THR-1 will arrive next week, I'm waiting one month already.


Please keep us posted. BTW, did you upgrade the main filter capacitors?; and which ones did you use for the upgrade?


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> Please keep us posted. BTW, did you upgrade the main filter capacitors?; and which ones did you use for the upgrade?


Yes I've implemented all published mods by @b0bb including Epcos filter/reservoir caps and Sparcos voltage stabilizers and Schotky diodes and so on.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Yes I've implemented all published mods by @b0bb including Epcos filter/reservoir caps and Sparcos voltage stabilizers and Schotky diodes and so on.


What did you gain by the caps upgrade? How did that alone change the H20 - if it can be isolated from the other mods?


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> What did you gain by the caps upgrade? How did that alone change the H20 - if it can be isolated from the other mods?


I don't know exactly bcause I've made all mods at once. But it can bring more punch, rumble and low end control.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> I don't know exactly bcause I've made all mods at once. But it can bring more punch, rumble and low end control.


Thanks for the replies. Wow - even more low-end rumble? I get plenty of that with just the Sparkos ss-3602's, it's hard to imagine much more without going over the top. I guess that's where the 'control' part comes in.


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> Thanks for the replies. Wow - even more low-end rumble? I get plenty of that with just the Sparkos ss-3602's, it's hard to imagine much more without going over the top. I guess that's where the 'control' part comes in.


You know  I'm listening at a fair low volume level usually. All is well controlled so no worries here  It is enjoyable even with Susvara, but HEkSE had better impact, bass volume/quantity was about the same, but that impact is missing with Susvara. It is hard to describe, but H20 with HEkSE can hit so hrad that is a bit painful when not awaited!  a fell asleep during listening and was awaken by BIG hit to head! ) Not from hitting the ground but from punch from HEkSE!


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> You know  I'm listening at a fair low volume level usually. All is well controlled so no worries here  It is enjoyable even with Susvara, but HEkSE had better impact, bass volume/quantity was about the same, but that impact is missing with Susvara. It is hard to describe, but H20 with HEkSE can hit so hrad that is a bit painful when not awaited!  a fell asleep during listening and was awaken by BIG hit to head! ) Not from hitting the ground but from punch from HEkSE!


Hahaha!


----------



## migo

THR-1 arrived today... I'm curious how it will compare to H20.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> THR-1 arrived today... I'm curious how it will compare to H20.


That's a good looking unit. Don't keep us in suspense, give us the details....!


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> That's a good looking unit. Don't keep us in suspense, give us the details....!


 sorry for late reply. THR-1 sounds a bit veiled compared to H20 now and dynamics is about the same with Susvara. H20 has similar (warm) sound characteristic like THR-1, but maintains more details and produces more life like vocal presentation with better texture and sense of realism/space with OP1656 OP amps inside, at least for now... Manufacturer of THR-1 recommends 300h of burn in and I'm only at 35h now.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> Magnetic shielding sheets (silver grey panels on right)
> 
> Reduces the magnetic pickup by the opamp when the volume control is operated.
> 
> Less clicks induced on the signal when turning the volume knob.


Hi @b0bb, I've realized now that I've missed out your last round of upgrades!  That is bad I need to implement those too!  On this pic I see you've added some caps that you was not talking about in place of 0.1uF WIMA MKS Mylar Caps. Not worth to mention this addition?  Thank you!


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> 180uF local bypass electrolytics.
> Brown caps under board, improves power availability to amp stage.
> 
> Bass tightness and speed improved with this change.


@b0bb have you better pics of this mod by the hand please, that I can see exact position of added caps?  Maybe this mod can help me with missing dynamics punch with Susvara and H20 that I'm looking for! Thank you!


----------



## b0bb (Feb 6, 2022)

migo said:


> @b0bb have you better pics of this mod by the hand please, that I can see exact position of added caps?  Maybe this mod can help me with missing dynamics punch with Susvara and H20 that I'm looking for! Thank you!


If have not done so, try the following 2 mods
1) Gustard uses a capacitance multiplier for the amp output stage, change these 2 caps to the 180uF, C236 on the top left. The other one is right behind.




2)Increase the cap bypass capacity for the amp's driver sections
The caps on the underside are in parallel to the green box caps. The white caps are 1uF PPS which will provide a small increase to the definition and punch.
Stock is 1uF mylar which leaves room for improvement.
The transparent caps on the right are 10nF polystyrene which bypasses the main filter caps.
Brown caps in the middle are more of the 180uF.





3) You are approaching the limits of what can be done by modifying the headphone amp, other components in the audio chain will need to be checked.
A simple thing you could try is to put your X26Pro into NOS mode and use an external DSP processing package  like HQplayer, you will need a computer with a minimum of 8 cores running at 3.5GHz or higher to get an improvement. No free lunch here. The inbuilt 450MHz DSP in the X26Pro is not really up to the task if you want to push the preformance limits, NOS mode tells it to get out of the way.

The Susvara also reveals limitations of the 9038Pro DAC, a lot more can be done here to fix the 9038's gutless bass.
This is the next step and a separate discussion.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> sorry for late reply. THR-1 sounds a bit veiled compared to H20 now and dynamics is about the same with Susvara. H20 has similar (warm) sound characteristic like THR-1, but maintains more details and produces more life like vocal presentation with better texture and sense of realism/space with OP1656 OP amps inside, at least for now... Manufacturer of THR-1 recommends 300h of burn in and I'm only at 35h now.


Patience is a virtue. I'm interested in your further comparisons.


----------



## migo

b0bb said:


> If have not done so, try the following 2 mods
> 1) Gustard uses a capacitance multiplier for the amp output stage, change these 2 caps to the 180uF, C236 on the top left. The other one is right behind.
> 
> 2)Increase the cap bypass capacity for the amp's driver sections
> ...


Hi @b0bb! I don't know who you are, but you have a deep knowledge and technical background! Kudos to you! 

I've had HEkSE for a trial before I decided to get Susvara and HEkSE was punching like a champ on my H20, better than Susvara! All users consensus here is that properly driven Susvara hits harder than HEkSE! Have you opinion/experience on this? Overall bass volume is satisfying for my taste, but I miss that last bit of punch that kicks ass but was there with HEkSE. Now I'm trying Kinki studio THR-1, whats your opinion about this amp? It is technically less impressive that H20 to me.

I've hard times to find 180uF caps you used online, I've found only overpriced 40pcs bulks...  You aimed at max. ripple current in that form factor, is there any alternative I can use and actually buy? I found EEUFR1H181LB PANASONIC on stock,  but those has only 1.4A ripple current.

I've changed all Mylar caps for PP caps (including 1uF ones) should I change it to PPS like you?

Can you post exact pn. of used 10nF polystyrene please?

Schottky SMD diodes are hard to find on stock too,  Digikey has it, but wants $30 for shipping  If you have some free spare caps/diodes to share with me I'm interested.

"3) You are approaching the limits of what can be done by modifying the headphone amp" - Are you suggesting me to buy a speaker amp like AHB2 or build myself CFA3 as a batter way to deal with Susvara? 

Had you modified X26PRO too?  Are those mods published somewhere?  

Thank you!


----------



## b0bb (Feb 9, 2022)

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb! I don't know who you are, but you have a deep knowledge and technical background! Kudos to you!
> 
> I've had HEkSE for a trial before I decided to get Susvara and HEkSE was punching like a champ on my H20, better than Susvara! All users consensus here is that properly driven Susvara hits harder than HEkSE! Have you opinion/experience on this? Overall bass volume is satisfying for my taste, but I miss that last bit of punch that kicks ass but was there with HEkSE. Now I'm trying Kinki studio THR-1, whats your opinion about this amp? It is technically less impressive that H20 to me.
> 
> ...


Stock H20's transient current delivery ability is weak, the reason the HE1K sounds better is because it demands less drive current.
Susvara is a 28ohm load, HE1K is 35ohm

The 180uF caps bring local charge storage closer to the output transistors, this improves the transient current delivery.
The chosen components have very high ripple current rating to deliver this transient current.
These caps were soldered under the green 0.15uF caps

If you have not added the Sparkos regulators and 180uF cap multipliers, consider doing so .
The cap multiplier mod also helps to accelerate the current delivery from the supply.

Are you sure the 1uF is PP?.
1uF PPs are usually bigger, a lot bigger.

I would not spend any more money buying yet another headphone amp
Susvara is a very high end unit and will require the other parts of your playback to perform to expectations.
It is already exposing faults in your entire playback chain not just the headphone amp.

With the Gustard X26Pro, you have a $25 DSP processing the audio going into a $6000 headphone.
I think you will do well to redress this anomaly by disabling the cheap DSP and building something that does the necessary DSP processing outside of the X26.
Feed the X26 with the highest data rate possible.

THR-1 is optimised for high voltage drive at the expense of current delivery, the Susvara needs high current delivery.
If you have an older unit the layout is subptimal, the power supply caps are too far away from the output transistors.
Current shipping models move these caps closer to the output transistors.
Overall  I think it is a poor match for the Susvara.


----------



## migo

Hi @b0bb, thank you for your answer. 


b0bb said:


> Stock H20's transient current delivery ability is weak, the reason the HE1K sounds better is because it demands less drive current.
> Susvara is a 28ohm load, HE1K is 35ohm


Susvara is 60ohm impedance with terrible 83dB sensitivity. 


b0bb said:


> The 180uF caps bring local charge storage closer to the output transistors, this improves the transient current delivery.
> The chosen components have very high ripple current rating to deliver this transient current.


I need clarification for this, you've used EKZN500ELL181MH20D which ripple current is rated: 1.96A at 100kHz, but at 120Hz it is only 0.784A, only available suitable cap here is EEUFR1H181LB PANASONIC which ripple current is rated: 1.43A at 100kHz, but at 120Hz it is 1.001A, and at 60Hz it is 0.858A. Is EEUFR1H181LB not better in this aspect/use case? Can I use EEUFR1H181LB for H20 here?


b0bb said:


> These caps were soldered under the green 0.15uF caps


I can't see polarity on those caps you mounted under green caps. 


b0bb said:


> If you have not added the Sparkos regulators and 180uF cap multipliers, consider doing so .
> The cap multiplier mod also helps to accelerate the current delivery from the supply.


I've added all of your published mods besides SMD Schottky diodes for preamp, 180uF caps addition and 180uF caps replacement + EMI shielding on relays.



b0bb said:


> Are you sure the 1uF is PP?.
> 1uF PPs are usually bigger, a lot bigger.


Factory sticker stated WIMA MKP2 and poplypropylene so I hope it is OK, pic of it is here in gallery.


b0bb said:


> I would not spend any more money buying yet another headphone amp
> Susvara is a very high end unit and will require the other parts of your playback to perform to expectations.
> It is already exposing faults in your entire playback chain not just the headphone amp.
> 
> ...


I don't own any 8 core PC, only 4 core i7 Haswell and 2core i5 Skylake all mobile/HTPC  I've sold ma Ryzen gaming pc after my son was born, had not the time for gaming 


b0bb said:


> THR-1 is optimised for high voltage drive at the expense of current delivery, the Susvara needs high current delivery.
> If you have an older unit the layout is subptimal, the power supply caps are too far away from the output transistors.
> Current shipping models move these caps closer to the output transistors.


It is brand new, I think it should be new design, but I don't want to open it, I will return it most probably. I'll give it a second chance after 150h of burnin, now I'm at 96h.



b0bb said:


> Overall  I think it is a poor match for the Susvara.


Thank you very much!


----------



## b0bb (Feb 9, 2022)

migo said:


> Susvara is 60ohm impedance with terrible 83dB sensitivity.


28ohm is the measured modulus of impedance, the vector sum of the reactive and actual impedance, this gives a better account of the drive requirements.
Reactive impedance components must be accounted for a more accurate estimate of the transient current demand.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/hifiman-susvara-headphones-lab-report


migo said:


> I need clarification for this, you've used EKZN500ELL181MH20D which ripple current is rated: 1.96A at 100kHz, but at 120Hz it is only 0.784A, only available suitable cap here is EEUFR1H181LB PANASONIC which ripple current is rated: 1.43A at 100kHz, but at 120Hz it is 1.001A, and at 60Hz it is 0.858A. Is EEUFR1H181LB not better in this aspect/use case? Can I use EEUFR1H181LB for H20 here?


Panasonic FR in an audio circuit will make the top end very harsh and gut the bass response.
Digikey Slovakia has almost 2000 of EKZN500ELL181MH20D in stock
https://www.digikey.sk/en/products/...cDaIKIGkBaA5ArABg3AMjgjABz4CyAEmBgCIAEIAugL5A


migo said:


> I can't see polarity on those caps you mounted under green caps.


Use your voltmeter to determine the voltage polarity and try not to rely exclusively on the pictures


migo said:


> Factory sticker stated WIMA MKP2 and poplypropylene so I hope it is OK, pic of it is here in gallery.


Gallery shows the 1uF in a 7mm x 7mm package, the smallest MKP2 made by Wima is 11mm x 7mm.
These may be remarked or fakes, get the PPS cap if you do not have a means to measure the value and check the dielectric type


migo said:


> I don't own any 8 core PC, only 4 core i7 Haswell and 2core i5 Skylake all mobile/HTPC  I've sold ma Ryzen gaming pc after my son was born, had not the time for gaming


This can be built comfortably built with $1100 cost of the THR-1. (8 Core processors can be had for very cheap (<$100), if you look at used server components)
Equivalent commercial DSP processors start from about $3500 from Wadia and can go up to $10000 or more for offerings from DCS or Weiss.
Improving the DSP filtering is one step closer to extract the best the Susvara has to offer.


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## migo (Feb 10, 2022)

Hi @b0bb,


b0bb said:


> 28ohm is the measured modulus of impedance, the vector sum of the reactive and actual impedance, this gives a better account of the drive requirements.
> Reactive impedance components must be accounted for a more accurate estimate of the transient current demand.
> https://www.hifinews.com/content/hifiman-susvara-headphones-lab-repor


thank you for clarifying this  I need to study more.


b0bb said:


> t
> 
> Panasonic FR in an audio circuit will make the top end very harsh and gut the bass response.
> Digikey Slovakia has almost 2000 of EKZN500ELL181MH20D in stock
> https://www.digikey.sk/en/products/...cDaIKIGkBaA5ArABg3AMjgjABz4CyAEmBgCIAEIAugL5A


Are you magician?  There was 0 cps. available yesterday with message.:
On Order:
    1.000
    Expected 7/21/2022

Ordered missing Schottky diodes for preamp and 180uF caps. Thank you for hint! Have you changed 100uF caps in preamp section too, or only in power amp section?



b0bb said:


> Use your voltmeter to determine the voltage polarity and try not to rely exclusively on the pictures


 I'll do it, thank you


b0bb said:


> Gallery shows the 1uF in a 7mm x 7mm package, the smallest MKP2 made by Wima is 11mm x 7mm.
> These may be remarked or fakes, get the PPS cap if you do not have a means to measure the value and check the dielectric type


This is my fault, I've not changed those 1uF only 0.1uF, so you are right as always!  Sorry for that please.

This one is not suitable for audio use? SMR5105J50J06L16.5CBULK KEMET Thank you.


b0bb said:


> This can be built comfortably built with $1100 cost of the THR-1. (8 Core processors can be had for very cheap (<$100), if you look at used server components)
> Equivalent commercial DSP processors start from about $3500 from Wadia and can go up to $10000 or more for offerings from DCS or Weiss.


I've some older 12core Xeon servers ar work, but 1u form factor is not really suitable for home use 


b0bb said:


> Improving the DSP filtering is one step closer to extract the best the Susvara has to offer.


First I'll try to complete all your Gustard H20 mods and then I can research other ways too. )

Thank you for your help!

EDIT:  are this caps OK for bypassing the main filter caps?

https://sk.farnell.com/lcr-components/fsc-160v-10000pf/cap-0-01-f-160v-3-ps/dp/9520163


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## b0bb (Feb 10, 2022)

migo said:


> Are you magician?  There was 0 cps. available yesterday with message.:
> On Order:
> 1.000
> Expected 7/21/2022


This is what I see on my end, there is stock in the system and it dropped 10% in the last 24hours.
You should contact Digikey directly if you want to go this route.







migo said:


> This one is not suitable for audio use? SMR5105J50J06L16.5CBULK KEMET



That will work


migo said:


> I've some older 12core Xeon servers ar work, but 1u form factor is not really suitable for home use



Min per-core speed is 3.0GHz, Xeons meeting this spec go as far back as IvyBridge, I have a 8 core Xeon E5v2 in one of my setups.
Some server motherboards are ATX derivatives so it can be used in a conventional case.
Most low to mid-range Xeons use the ILM, S775 or S12xx mounting method, Asetek makes ILM mounting kits for their water coolers. S775 and S12xx mounts usually come with the coolers.
Noise is not really an issue if you do this.


migo said:


> https://sk.farnell.com/lcr-components/fsc-160v-10000pf/cap-0-01-f-160v-3-ps/dp/9520163



Check the dimensions to see if it will fit on your board


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## migo

b0bb said:


> This is what I see on my end, there is stock in the system and it dropped 10% in the last 24hours.
> You should contact Digikey directly if you want to go this route.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi @b0bb, I've just completed 1uF mylar caps exchange for 1uF PPS and 100uF caps exchange for 180uF in power section + 8x 180 uF caps addition. How long should I let it burnin for optimal results? Thank you!


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## migo

I've posted my small comparison of H20 to Kinki studio THR-1 amp here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/kinki-studio-vision-thr-1.955944/post-16820435


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## b0bb

migo said:


> Hi @b0bb, I've just completed 1uF mylar caps exchange for 1uF PPS and 100uF caps exchange for 180uF in power section + 8x 180 uF caps addition. How long should I let it burnin for optimal results? Thank you!


About 14 days


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## migo

some fun arrived today...


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## migo (Jun 17, 2022)

Last upgrades I've made to H20 increased dynamics and punch/weight to the next level (thanks again @b0bb) and H20 is sounding very good with Susvara too! One not awaited change was massive increase of soundstage to that level that I don't miss my Arya V2 anymore!

From curiosity out I was trying next OP amps in H20 with Susvara. I must say that I'm very impressed by Burson V6 Vivid OP amps! Now H20 sounds more balanced and refined with more bass weight and precision. Midrange is clear and naturally sounding simply amazing! Treble is crystal clear and extended with no harshness and without any sign of fatigue during long listening sessions! I'm enjoying this balanced sound more that three months now and I'm still thrilled every time I put Susvara on my head how good this amp sounds with this OP amps.

I've never heard Susvara sound so good like now with Burson V6 Vivid.


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## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Sparkos V6 Vivid OP amps


FYI and a correction: Burson's V6 Vivids.....Sparkos are the ss3602's.


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## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> FYI and a correction: Burson's V6 Vivids.....Sparkos are the ss3602's.


Ouch, thank you I've mixed it with linear voltage stabilizers by Sparkos used in H20 too! Corrected now. I've installed them long time ago and using Burson's V6 Vivid since then as daily driver in my H20.


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## mrjayviper

anyone using this phones with their Susvara/He6 or any very hard/hard-to-drive phones? feedback?

is the front of the chassis dedicated to "power" section of the amplifier while the half section closer to the inputs is for "input" processing?

Thanks a lot.


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## migo

I'm using modded one with Susvara. Yes, in front is output stage and back is preamp, volume controls and inputs.


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## mrjayviper (Aug 5, 2022)

migo said:


> I'm using modded one with Susvara. Yes, in front is output stage and back is preamp, volume controls and inputs.



Is it providing enough power/"oomph" to your phones?

can you do something for me please? (can you please tell me the V+/V- for the op-amp?

Thanks again.


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## mrjayviper (Aug 5, 2022)

I found a local seller/store selling this brand new (asking him if there's a discount as he's selling it at 2019 prices!)

I'm deciding between Topping A90 Discrete, SMSL SP400 and this amp. and I love the look of this amp better!


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## migo (Aug 5, 2022)

mrjayviper said:


> Is it providing enough power/"oomph" to your phones?
> 
> can you do something for me please? (can you please tell me the V+/V- for the op-amp?
> 
> Thanks again.


In stock configuration it was missing dynamics and stage with Susvara. After modifications it is really good  real difference can be heard, I was surprised. I've finished CFA3 now and can tall that modded H20 is not far away...

I've not measured +-V supplied to OP amps yet, for what it is good?


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## mrjayviper (Aug 5, 2022)

migo said:


> In stock configuration it was missing dynamics and stage with Susvara. After modifications it is really good  real difference can be heard, I was surprised. I've finished CFA3 now and can tall that modded H20 is not far away...
> 
> I've not measured +-V supplied to OP amps yet, for what it is good?


I have some spare opamps here (opa627bp) which were good in its day. I'm wondering if it's suitable.

Did you mods include changing circuit or just parts swap?

Thanks a lot for answering my questions


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## migo

mrjayviper said:


> I have some spare opamps here (opa612ap) which were good in its day. I'm wondering if it's suitable.
> 
> Did you mods include changing circuit or just parts swap?
> 
> Thanks a lot for answering my questions


Are you sure its opa612ap?
Only parts swap, no circuit modifications needed, all mods are presented by @b0bb here in thread.


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## mrjayviper

migo said:


> Are you sure its opa612ap?
> Only parts swap, no circuit modifications needed, all mods are presented by @b0bb here in thread.


Definitely original. Many years ago I used to work at an electronics company. Was easy to get samples from TI


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## migo

mrjayviper said:


> Definitely original. Many years ago I used to work at an electronics company. Was easy to get samples from TI


cant find data sheet. isn't it OPA1612?


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## mrjayviper

My mistake. It's opa627bp

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA627BP?qs=wgAEGBTxy7lfKBkbuV%2BE2A==


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## mrjayviper

It's singles only so I have to use an adapter to get 2


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## migo

mrjayviper said:


> It's singles only so I have to use an adapter to get 2


IDK if its worth that hassle.


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## mrjayviper

migo said:


> IDK if its worth that hassle.


I already have the opamp. Opening the amp and putting it in is not a lot of trouble

So can you please get the V+and V- that's going in to the opamp. Thanks


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## migo

mrjayviper said:


> I already have the opamp. Opening the amp and putting it in is not a lot of trouble
> 
> So can you please get the V+and V- that's going in to the opamp. ThanksV


You need a two dual OPAs here so two adapters are needed. Check pinout of your OPA if its pin compatible, in specs is +-18V max. I can check but don't know when, I'm playing with CFA3 now.





Mine H20 is by my friend now and will be for sale later probably...


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## mrjayviper

I have 4 opa627 🙂


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## mrjayviper (Aug 15, 2022)

wrong thread


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## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> You need a two dual OPAs here so two adapters are needed. Check pinout of your OPA if its pin compatible, in specs is +-18V max. I can check but don't know when, I'm playing with CFA3 now.
> 
> 
> Mine H20 is by my friend now and will be for sale later probably...


You're truly stepping up to esoteric stuffs. I'm super impressed....


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## ezduzit2500

mrjayviper said:


> My mistake. It's opa627bp
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA627BP?qs=wgAEGBTxy7lfKBkbuV%2BE2A==


Opamps really don't cost that much in the grand scheme. IMO, I'd much rather step up to discrete opamps rather than fuxing around with IC opamps. See: Sparkos Labs or Burson.


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## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> You're truly stepping up to esoteric stuffs. I'm super impressed....


Thank you  I like such a things  and building them too, its fun  I'm building stepped attenuator for CFA3 right now...


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## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Thank you  I like such a things  and building them too, its fun  I'm building stepped attenuator for CFA3 right now...


Is this an option with the kit also - or is it your own design?


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## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> Is this an option with the kit also - or is it your own design?


It will be replacement for that crapy blue Alps pot hopefully. I need to tune Arduino controller SW first to see if it is reliable enough and work as expected. This one is designed by Mr. Gilmore too.


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## mrjayviper (Aug 22, 2022)

migo said:


> It will be replacement for that crapy blue Alps pot hopefully. I need to tune Arduino controller SW first to see if it is reliable enough and work as expected. This one is designed by Mr. Gilmore too.


Where do you get the software for the volume relay controller? Is true PCB on the picture for balanced?

Thanks


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## migo

There is last version of SW from 2017 partially functional at HC. Yes, this one is dual stereo (balanced) populated booth sides of PCB.


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## mrjayviper

how many steps are there on the attenuator? thanks @migo


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## migo

mrjayviper said:


> how many steps are there on the attenuator? thanks @migo


128 steps


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## Alcophone (Oct 13, 2022)

Pashmeister said:


> Despite being an ugly looking DAC, I have to admit being in a matching stack is an improvement (due to visual harmony and symmetry). It’s still not pretty though; but an improvement at least.
> 
> Do we know any details about this H20pro amplifier? I mean if it performs as well as the R26 does then we got another winner. Hope it can drive Susvara.


👀


http://www.headphoneclub.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=753957&aid=682330


https://www.xinjiapo.news/news/137141


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## ghostz

Can't see any info about H20 Pro anywhere, does anyone know when it this coming out or have any details about the topology as well as pricing of this amp ?


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## dermott

ghostz said:


> Can't see any info about H20 Pro anywhere, does anyone know when it this coming out or have any details about the topology as well as pricing of this amp ?


Indeed. I want to get a matched set (headamp and DAC) that is R2R on the DAC side and able to drive Hifiman Arya V2 on the amp side. Looking for power and warmth. I realize that the forthcoming Holo Bliss & Spring combo would probably be the ultimate endgame for the Arya V2, but that is probably at twice the price of the H20pro/ R26 combo, but not at half the performance from the Gustard stack.


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## ezduzit2500

Alcophone said:


> 👀
> 
> 
> http://www.headphoneclub.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=753957&aid=682330
> ...


Those are SWEET. The OG H20 is _nuts _with either Sparkos Labs' or Burson's discrete opamps - what may the H20 Pro hold up it's sleeve??? Impressions???


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## Alcophone

ezduzit2500 said:


> Those are SWEET. The OG H20 is _nuts _with either Sparkos Labs' or Burson's discrete opamps - what may the H20 Pro hold up it's sleeve??? Impressions???


Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson, but yes!
Wondering whether it's actually class A as claimed, though, mine (with Sparkos SS3602s and DCA Stealth, balanced) consumes more power at higher volumes or greater bass intensity (measured with a Kill-A-Watt).
The Pass Labs HPA-1 meanwhile just draws the same power regardless (and a little more when I enable the preamp function).


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## migo

Alcophone said:


> Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson, but yes!
> Wondering whether it's actually class A as claimed, though, mine (with Sparkos SS3602s and DCA Stealth, balanced) consumes more power at higher volumes or greater bass intensity (measured with a Kill-A-Watt).
> The Pass Labs HPA-1 meanwhile just draws the same power regardless (and a little more when I enable the preamp function).


Is Pass Labs HPA-1 class A amp? I doubt that...


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## Alcophone (Oct 30, 2022)

migo said:


> Is Pass Labs HPA-1 class A amp? I doubt that...


From the manual:


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## migo

Ah sorry missed that, I've checked only technical specifications where is no info about it but there is:

Power Consumption (Watts)*23*
which seem to be very low for class A amp to me.


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## Alcophone (Oct 30, 2022)

migo said:


> Ah sorry missed that, I've checked only technical specifications where is no info about it but there is:
> 
> Power Consumption (Watts)*23*
> which seem to be very low for class A amp to me.


From my notes about my measurements with a Kill-A-Watt:

Pass Labs HPA-1:

Off: 0W
Idling: ~26W
DCA Stealth: ~26W (no change to idle)
Preamp on: > ~27W
ZMF Pendant SE:

Off: 0W
Idle: ~58W
DCA Stealth: ~58W (no change to idle)
Gustard H20:

Off: 0W
Idle: ~20W
DCA Stealth, single ended: up to 35W
DCA Stealth, balanced: up to 25W
The "up to" is based on what I could tolerate.


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## migo

Alcophone said:


> From my notes about my measurements with a Kill-A-Watt:
> 
> Pass Labs HPA-1:
> 
> ...


Interesting comparison. Is your H20 in stock configuration or modified with mods presented here in this thread?


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## Alcophone

migo said:


> Interesting comparison. Is your H20 in stock configuration or modified with mods presented here in this thread?


Stock, apart from using SparkoS SS3602s. I wish I had the skills to do more.


----------



## migo

Alcophone said:


> Stock, apart from using SparkoS SS3602s. I wish I had the skills to do more.


Thank you, I was curious only, I've not measured real power consumption of my modified one unf.


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## ezduzit2500

Alcophone said:


> Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson, but yes!
> Wondering whether it's actually class A as claimed, though, mine (with Sparkos SS3602s and DCA Stealth, balanced) consumes more power at higher volumes or greater bass intensity (measured with a Kill-A-Watt).
> The Pass Labs HPA-1 meanwhile just draws the same power regardless (and a little more when I enable the preamp function).


"Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson....."

Is that the "official order" of the discrete opamps you've used - as far as sound quality? I've been thinking of trying the Sonic Imagery Labs alongside the Sparkos and others - your thoughts and impressions of them? 

The H20 may class A up to a point - and then revert to Class AB afterwards like many/most advertised Class A amps. Might your Pass Labs be drawing the same power based on it's much larger power supply with it's 40,000uF worth of caps? That's as much capacitance as my high current, Class AB, 2.6 ohm stable, 75W power amp, LOL......


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## Alcophone

ezduzit2500 said:


> "Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson....."
> 
> Is that the "official order" of the discrete opamps you've used - as far as sound quality?


I hereby declare it so!
Well, it's my order of preference for these opamps.



ezduzit2500 said:


> I've been thinking of trying the Sonic Imagery Labs alongside the Sparkos and others - your thoughts and impressions of them?


https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/opamp-rolling-with-the-gustard-h20.23639/



ezduzit2500 said:


> The H20 may class A up to a point - and then revert to Class AB afterwards like many/most advertised Class A amps.


I suspect that's the case. Class AB with a high bias that happens to not be sufficient for the DCA Stealth.



ezduzit2500 said:


> Might your Pass Labs be drawing the same power based on it's much larger power supply with it's 40,000uF worth of caps? That's as much capacitance as my high current, Class AB, 2.6 ohm stable, 75W power amp, LOL......


I'm not qualified to answer that 😅


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> "Sparkos > Sonic Imagery Labs > Burson....."
> 
> Is that the "official order" of the discrete opamps you've used - as far as sound quality? I've been thinking of trying the Sonic Imagery Labs alongside the Sparkos and others - your thoughts and impressions of them?
> 
> The H20 may class A up to a point - and then revert to Class AB afterwards like many/most advertised Class A amps. Might your Pass Labs be drawing the same power based on it's much larger power supply with it's 40,000uF worth of caps? That's as much capacitance as my high current, Class AB, 2.6 ohm stable, 75W power amp, LOL......


How do you like Bursons V6 Vivid?


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## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> How do you like Bursons V6 Vivid?


They're great - and Burson surely named them after their SQ presentation. I call the Vivids my: "Squeaky-clean digital studio" opamps - as opposed to the Sparkos being my: "High-End analog playback" opamps. 

The Vivids are more "up-front" and well, _vivid _- with well-defined leading edges and a midrange focused presentation with uber _clarity._ The Sparkos are just as revealing but aren't quite as _forward - _but have better trailing edges, reveal the recording environment/space better, and have a _naturalness _to them - with also _seemingly unfettered _bass depth and dynamics. 

Whichever you may favor really depends on your _use-case_: The Vivids work _slightly _better with my laid back-_ish _Energy RC-10 speakers in my desktop system, while the Sparkos work better with the H20/Arya combination - with the Aryas being _slightly _brighter and more revealing in the treble than the Energys. Synergy tops the individual components, IMO, but I could absolutely live with either......


----------



## migo

ezduzit2500 said:


> They're great - and Burson surely named them after their SQ presentation. I call the Vivids my: "Squeaky-clean digital studio" opamps - as opposed to the Sparkos being my: "High-End analog playback" opamps.
> 
> The Vivids are more "up-front" and well, _vivid _- with well-defined leading edges and a midrange focused presentation with uber _clarity._ The Sparkos are just as revealing but aren't quite as _forward - _but have better trailing edges, reveal the recording environment/space better, and have a _naturalness _to them - with also _seemingly unfettered _bass depth and dynamics.
> 
> Whichever you may favor really depends on your _use-case_: The Vivids work _slightly _better with my laid back-_ish _Energy RC-10 speakers in my desktop system, while the Sparkos work better with the H20/Arya combination - with the Aryas being _slightly _brighter and more revealing in the treble than the Energys. Synergy tops the individual components, IMO, but I could absolutely live with either......


Interesting  With Susvara was Burson V6 Vivid absolutely amazing! It pushed out more dynamics from my modded H20 and added a bit mid bass that vocals became absolutely sweet yet detailed! It was for the first time I've enjoyed Susvara to max.


----------



## ezduzit2500

migo said:


> Interesting  With Susvara was Burson V6 Vivid absolutely amazing! It pushed out more dynamics from my modded H20 and added a bit mid bass that vocals became absolutely sweet yet detailed! It was for the first time I've enjoyed Susvara to max.


I don't have the Susvaras - but from what I've read of them they're sort of _laid-back and inviting _- not too forward or aggressive. If that's their _general _presentation, I could see how the Vivids would work well with them. Yeah, the Vivids have a "_focus_" that few other opamps attain - they named them very well. I only have an SMSL SU-9 MQA DAC feeding my H20. I use the Sparkos more (with the Arya Stealth) because: The SU-9 is _clean/neutral_ (but not fatiguing), the H20 with Sparkos is _natural/spacious/analog_, and the Aryas are _bright-ish_. Neutral > Natural > Bright-ish: The H20 w/ Sparkos keep the Aryas from being _over the top _bright. My attempt at _synergy_.......


----------

