# DIY Planar magnetic heapdhones in details



## Garuspik

Hi! It's my first post on this forum and I would like to start a thread where I'll tell you my story of building full size planar magnetic headphones.
 Fankly speaking, I'm rather new in Head-Fi (but not new in Hi-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) and I hope to hear your opinion (and maybe some tips!) about my work. I've started building headphones exactly 1 year ago and now I think I have something interesting to tell to the world.
  
  
  
What are my goals?
  
1. To build a full size open planar magnetic headphones
2. Achieve a sound of a really high level ( my landmarks are Audeze LCD-3 and Hifiman He-1000)
3. Headphones should be ready at least for a small series
4. Net cost 100-150$
  
So the story begins...
  
My first step was to make a simple planar magnetic transducer. From my point of view starting from the beginning with building a headphone is a really bad idea. I'm not novice in making non-dynamic transducer: i've already built electrostatic and plasma speakers, so making an isodynamic speaker wasn't a difficult task for me. I went to market, bought same magnets, opened Corel Draw, made simple drawings and cut with laser a few plastic and metal parts.
Next day I received such result :
  

  
 And same speaker with one sided magnet system:
  

  
 If Admin will consider my post worthy I ask to move this thread to DIY forum. As a novice I can only start a new thread in "Introductions, Help and Recommendations"


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## WaffleIron

Hoo, that's really cool. I'm currently in the process of working on my own planar headphones and have a thread up for them. Progress isn't nearly as fast as yours though. Hope something interesting comes outta yours. Will be watching.


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## Garuspik

Wafflelron, hi! I read your thread and you made a mistake in tracing diaphragm
 So let me explain how I did those mini speakers and I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about
  
*Step 1*:
  
 Tracing diaphragm

  
 Please look, current in all 4 groups of traces flow in the same direction.
  
*Step 2 *- placing magnets between group of traces. How I made it I've shown on picture.
  
*Step 3* - making a housing. That's the most simple. Just draw anything you want in any vector editor and cut it with laser.

  
 Gray details are from steel, purple are from plastic.
 If somebody is interested I'll explain how to make a membrane with conductor lines, what material should be used and how to assemble this.


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## WaffleIron

garuspik said:


> Wafflelron, hi! I read your thread and you made a mistake in tracing diaphragm
> So let me explain how I did those mini speakers and I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about
> 
> *Step 1*:
> ...


 
 Yeah I had realised that shortly after posting. Never got around to fixing/updating the thread. I've made an updated trace already. I don't have a a laser cutter, but I have access to a 3D printer at one of the courses I'm taking. I've just been real busy so making the housing hasn't been on my priority list. My real problem at this point is making the headband, but even that is a solved issue at this point, as I have an old Beyerdynamic style headband I can sacrifice. 
  
 Thanks for the advice though. I'd surely be interested in what materials you've used though. I'm using Kapton film for mine, which I've never seen used before. I was advised to use Kapton over Mylar, but I may do a version of both.


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## Garuspik

For membrane I use Dupont Pyralux. It's some sort of kapton + copper. I've achieved 0.15 width of trace.
 Here photos of my first headphone prototype.


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## Garuspik

Made some measurements of this prototype:

  
 For a made-in-evening prototype with magnets bought in nearby store and one sided magnet system it sounds really well and I decided to order custom magnets and build a serious headphone transducer. If someone is interested I'll tell what I achieved and explain how it was made.


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## ForceMajeure

Awesome work.
 Please explain the whole process once you receive the new magnets. How you etched the thin kapton film and so on...


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## Garuspik

I've already received custom magnets. Frankly speaking, this project started rather long ago but it's not interesting to post everything in one day 
  
 So, before I've ordered custom magnets I've visited my local hi-end headphones store. I took with me my favourite music, screwdriver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and whiskey (to an owner as a 'thank you' for possibility to open hi-end planar headphones and look what's inside.
  
 I've listened and opened to look inside Audeze LCD 4, Hifiman He-1000, Hifiman He-560, and some less pricy Fostex. I noticed that all mentioned headphones has relatively small membrane compared to the size of the cup. I consider this to be a huge mistake in their construction. Let's change this! I've tried to maximize moving area of membrane and draw such thing:

 Outer diameter of cup is 110 mm. Diameter of the moving part of diaphragm is 82 mm. That's about twice as big in comparison with He-1000 (which sound I really like).
 To make such transducer I've ordered 50 pcs of 85*3*3  N50 neodymium magnets.

  
 How I assembled that and what was the result I'll tell later.


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## WaffleIron

Just out of interest, what adhesive did you use to attach the membrane to the acrylic?


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## Garuspik

waffleiron said:


> Just out of interest, what adhesive did you use to attach the membrane to the acrylic?


 
 Very good question! I've tried 5-6 glues before I've found perfect variant:


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## chinsettawong

Very interesting project.


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## MrTie84

Subscribed, very interested in how this comes together for you, very cool.


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## ericj

waffleiron said:


> Yeah I had realised that shortly after posting. Never got around to fixing/updating the thread. I've made an updated trace already. I don't have a a laser cutter, but I have access to a 3D printer at one of the courses I'm taking. I've just been real busy so making the housing hasn't been on my priority list. My real problem at this point is making the headband, but even that is a solved issue at this point, as I have an old Beyerdynamic style headband I can sacrifice.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though. I'd surely be interested in what materials you've used though. I'm using Kapton film for mine, which I've never seen used before. I was advised to use Kapton over Mylar, but I may do a version of both.


 
  
  
 I believe we've seen at least one Fostex T-50 (vintage) variant made of Kapton. 
  
  


garuspik said:


> I've already received custom magnets. Frankly speaking, this project started rather long ago but it's not interesting to post everything in one day
> 
> So, before I've ordered custom magnets I've visited my local hi-end headphones store. I took with me my favourite music, screwdriver
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, the more pricy vintage Fostex T-50, it's OEM variants, as well as the Sansui SS-100 and similar Akai model, have a bigger driver.


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## cskippy

Very interested in progress and results.  Good job man!


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## Garuspik

Thanks! Let's continue my story. I've made several 40 ohm membranes with 0.25 traces. You can see a result on embroidery frame before glueing.
  

  
 I've made on cnc router sample enclosure for measurements and listening tests.

  

  
  
 What's the main difference between my designh and hifiman or audeze? Big membrane (82 mm diameter) that is capable to move lot's of air while not travelling far from middle position.
 Look at photos of brand headphones and you understand what I'm talking about:
 1. He-1000. About 4*6 cm active area. It's only 24 sq. cm. Nothing in comparison with huge cup

  
  
 2. Audeze - same story.

  
 When I've assembled planar transudecer I've measured it in open space (like tweeter with low pass filter)

  
 Much better result as you see. Next step is comparison with top brands in local hi-fi store!


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## chinsettawong

Hi Garuspik,
  
 Your headphones look very well made.  How thick is your diaphragm and where do you buy it from?  How do you mask the copper on your diaphragm and how do you etch it?
  
 Seeing your pictures making me want to build them too.
  
 Wachara C.


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## Garuspik

You haven't seen my headphones yet. Those are only prototypes 
 I've used Pyralux from dupont. It's 12 um of polyimide and 7 um of copper. I order mask to company that makes pcb's for microelectronics.


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## chinsettawong

garuspik said:


> You haven't seen my headphones yet. Those are only prototypes
> I've used Pyralux from dupont. It's 12 um of polyimide and 7 um of copper. I order mask to company that makes pcb's for microelectronics.


 
  
 Thanks for the info.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Looking forward to seeing your headphones.


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## Garuspik (Jul 31, 2018)

First I've assembled headphones with some noname chinese headband. Cups I've made from aluminium. And with all that things I came into very friendly (at least to me  ) audiophile store that specializes in  headphones.








 Several people made listening tests of almost all available planar top headphones (oppo pm-1, Hifiman he-1000, audeze he-4) and dynamic top - Hifiman Hd-800.


 I was encouraged with achieved and what is more important I was encouraged with reviews of other people.


 p.s. I'm new to head-fi, yet not new in hi-fi. Never owned good portative system, but have an expereince in speaker building. Why not to build smth new?


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## manishex

amazing, well done


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## chinsettawong

Very nice!


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## ForceMajeure

Awesome work!
 I hope you'll be updating this thread with the newer revision.
  
 Also you should start thinking about giving them a name


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## Garuspik

I want to make my own headband. What are main goals?
  
 1. Comfortable
 2. Lighweight
 3. Reliable
 4. Easy to make
  
 What I have: cnc router, laser cutting machine, plastic injection machine (but don't want to make moulds for prototypes). That's what I designed:

  
 And that's what I achieved (not final look! Joints are temporary and that's still a draft)
  

  

  

  
  
  
 Leather band cutted with laser
  

 And with stitching. That part is final.

  
 That's how I made cow leather earpads:

  
 As you see they are angled and have big opening (75 mm).During my experiments I achieved best sound with such shape.
 With all those parts soon I'll make first 'alpha' version that should look closer to final unit.


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## mitchell2001

I think using diametrically magnetized cylindrical magnets would be better than using bar magnets. It would be like the Ether flows but without the complex 3D printed wave guides. I found a place to order them but they will have to be custom made.https://www.kjmagnetics.com/custom.asp


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## 100VoltTube

WOW awesome. Great work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I am definitely interested in making a pair of planars at some point. Probably after I have a few pairs of electrostatics up and running. Is this the same stuff you use for diaphragms? Would you mind providing the details of the company that makes your masks?
  
@mitchell2001 brings up an interesting point, although a properly designed waveguide or "fazors" should produce even less turbulence than cylindrical magnets.
  
 Also, that's an awesome hifi store.


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## Attila Balog

is this post still alive? very good looking traces can you write about your etching process a little bit more much appropriated


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## MuZo2

garuspik said:


> For membrane I use Dupont Pyralux. It's some sort of kapton + copper. I've achieved 0.15 width of trace.
> Here photos of my first headphone prototype.


 
 Nice work, but I think you can increase the trace area.


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## coinmaster

What's the technical reason behind the snake-like shape of the foil in planar magnetic designs? Increased resistance? Less mass? Ignoring the drive requirements for a moment, would an unetched piece of foil work just the same? I would think the larger conductive surface area and wider magnetic field would give it more uniform control.


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## hasmac

It's similar to increasing the number of turns in a regular coil, it helps increase the magnetic field. The more turns you can squeeze in the stronger the field will be.
  
 The trade off being as you increase the turn density the tracks have to get thinner, increasing their resistance, so there's an optimum limit for each design based on the available space or volume.
  
 A single sheet would have little magnetic field (half a turn worth), but could have a large surface area, which would be good for electric field, so would be better run as an electrostatic.


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## coinmaster

Ah, now I see, it's a flat coil.
What is the average current requirement to get a planar magnetic driver to perform at comfortably loud levels?


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## hasmac

It must be the same as a regular dynamic, the impedance is in the same ball park, my Akai ASE-40 is 40ohms pushing a 40mm membrane, and it doesn't have a problem with volume.


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## Garuspik

muzo2 said:


> Nice work, but I think you can increase the trace area.


 
 You're absolutely right!  But I've already shown you my current design

  
 Active surface is 54 cm2 or ~8,4 squar inches. For example Audeze has ~6,2 sq. inches. When I compare big  and small membranes that's the same story as when you compare big speaker with 15" woofer and bookshelf speaker. They even can have same bass extension, but I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about.


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## coinmaster

If I recall, the strength of an electromagnetic field is determined by amps x turns so I will simply make mine as close to zero ohms as possible using an unetched piece of metalized film with a single polarity on either side of the diaphragm and turn up the current. Seems like it would work correct? 
I have an amp that can drive zero ohms so the driving requirements aren't a problem.


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## 100VoltTube

coinmaster said:


> What's the technical reason behind the snake-like shape of the foil in planar magnetic designs? Increased resistance? Less mass? Ignoring the drive requirements for a moment, would an unetched piece of foil work just the same? I would think the larger conductive surface area and wider magnetic field would give it more uniform control.


 
 See: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work#HWpdGbxPQLYMIcpR.97
  


coinmaster said:


> If I recall, the strength of an electromagnetic field is determined by amps x turns so I will simply make mine as close to zero ohms as possible using an unetched piece of metalized film with a single polarity on either side of the diaphragm and turn up the current. Seems like it would work correct?
> I have an amp that can drive zero ohms so the driving requirements aren't a problem.


 
 This is called a ribbon driver. They are used in some speakers as tweeters, just like planar magnetic drivers. What's cool about them is that all you need to make one is a thin sheet of aluminum foil and a pair of magnets. An array of bar magnets oriented like a planar magnetic headphone won't work. A huge advantage of ribbon drivers is that the diaphragm can be made thin... really thin... As in so thin that an unexpected burst of air can tear it. (this is a real problem) But, on the other hand, the diaphragm mass is tiny, so it can resolve detail like an electrostatic driver. The minuscule impedance is also a problem. The delicacy of the diaphragm can be helped by putting a sheet of crumpled Mylar around the driver assembly. See this post for details. I would be very interested in hearing a pair of ribbon headphones. I'm also curious about that amp you speak of that can drive a dead short. Part of me wants to call BS on that claim, but I will refrain from doing so until I hear more details. Cool topologies that can do cool things do exist.
  
 Darn. I already wanted to make some e-stats and planars. Now you've interested me in DIY ribbon headphones!


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## coinmaster

> This is called a ribbon driver


 
 Hmmm, aren't ribbons just skinny strips of foil? I would think that an unetched metallized mylar film in a planar driver shape would be a bit of a crossover between the two. I don't think a pure ribbon headphone would have good bass either.
  


> I'm also curious about that amp you speak of that can drive a dead short.


 
 It's called a transconductance amplifier. It will sound terrible on almost anything other than a ribbon because most drivers are designed for voltage amplifiers. I would have to design it to spec but it would work wonderfully into zero ohms.

  


> Cool topologies that can do cool things do exist.


 
 You have no idea, I spend too much of my time designing said topologies and my designs make the "flagship" big name amplifiers on the market sound like garbage in comparison. I'm trying to build my own amplifier company because it's disgraceful what passes as the standard for a "good" amplifier, especially at the prices people charge.
 There really has been almost no innovation in the audio industry in many decades.
  
 What I'd like to do is learn how to design headphones and speakers, to my own specifications. That would open another world of possibilities to me. I think this desire may be unreasonable though as I have my hands full with just the amplifiers as it is.
  
 When I saw Garuspik mention this


> After that test I relized that I NEED to build good headphones cause I'm absolutely not impressed by top headphones (especially when I read price tag).


 
 It was like he ripped the words out of my mouth, except he was talking about headphones not amplifiers. Seems like the lack of innovation and effort lies on both ends of the spectrum.
 Sadly he lives half way across the world from me, I would love to have a partner to colab with. I have so much R&D to do on so many concepts and designs, I need more of me.


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## MuZo2

garuspik said:


> You're absolutely right!  But I've already shown you my current design
> 
> 
> Active surface is 54 cm2 or ~8,4 squar inches. For example Audeze has ~6,2 sq. inches. When I compare big  and small membranes that's the same story as when you compare big speaker with 15" woofer and bookshelf speaker. They even can have same bass extension, but I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about.


 
 Great work!!! is it possible to do with aluminum because copper traces will corrode faster.


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## Garuspik

muzo2 said:


> Great work!!! is it possible to do with aluminum because copper traces will corrode faster.


 
  
 1. Traces will be not from the side of ear.
 2. Copper is much better in terms of reliability in comparison with aluminium. Just compare Audeze and fostex t50. Fostex has copper traces.


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## 100VoltTube

coinmaster said:


> Hmmm, aren't ribbons just skinny strips of foil? I would think that an unetched metallized mylar film in a planar driver shape would be a bit of a crossover between the two. I don't think a pure ribbon headphone would have good bass either.
> 
> It's called a transconductance amplifier. It will sound terrible on almost anything other than a ribbon because most drivers are designed for voltage amplifiers. I would have to design it to spec but it would work wonderfully into zero ohms.
> 
> ...


 
 Ribbons are strips of foil. What you described works the same way, so I think it would qualify as a ribbon. Not sure about that, though, now that you mention it. A thin strip of foil would have some advantages in the mids and treble, but I'm not sure about bass. Thin foil would also be higher sensitivity (need less current) and higher impedance, not that that matters with a transconductance amplifier.
  
 A transconductance stage in an amp would also be very helpful with driving grounded-grid or common gate stages where you need the preceding stage to have gain, which a cathode follower or a common drain stage don't do. But you probably knew that already.
  
 I think I do have an idea. I'm pretty much the same, except I have much less experience than you. With regards to the statement about how little innovation there has been, I agree totally,but you should see the guitar industry. Guitarists will spend thousands for amps that were designed in the 50's, instead of modern amps, and, I know this sounds crazy, but I don't blame them. Many modern guitar amps actually sound worse than the ones 60 years old. They seem to have made backwards progress. 
  
 By the way, have you ever heard of a beam deflection tube (BDT)?
  
 Now back to DIY planars, and maybe ribbons.


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## MuZo2

garuspik said:


> Thanks! Let's continue my story. I've made several 40 ohm membranes with 0.25 traces. You can see a result on embroidery frame before glueing.
> 
> 
> 
> I've made on cnc router sample enclosure for measurements and listening tests.


 
 How did you manage to assemble those two sides? did you make some special fixture?
 Also the side traces are they active?


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## coinmaster

Another option for driving close to 0 ohms would be a solid state amplifier with an output transformer.
 My plan is to make a pair of electrostatic headphones, probably an orpheus clone if I can. Then I'll make my "ribbon/plannar" headphones. Then I'll combine the two and use metalized mylar or something similar and use the mylar side as an electrostatic diaphragm and the metalized side as a "ribbon".
 I'll use a mesh stator with magnets attached to the outside and charge the stator and the magnets effectively creating a hybrid.
 This would require two drive stages and I question what will happen to the electrostatic voltage swing with the capacitance between the mylar and the metallized side.
 Time will tell.
  


> By the way, have you ever heard of a beam deflection tube


 
 I've heard of them but I've never used one.


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## 100VoltTube

That sounds really cool, but it might not work too well. I would be afraid of the bias voltage getting to the ribbon/planar side and blowing up your amp. you could just have a DC offset on the stators and use the close-to-ground ribbon side as a diaphragm bias. in terms of amping, it would be quite a project, or just a pair of trafos


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## coinmaster

Yeah, I was thinking about putting a super thin layer of mylar on the ribbon side. I'm not sure how I would fuse though. If I'm correct, electrostatic headphones need about 100v of signal swing, which should allow enough insulaton room with the mylar.
  
 I plan on having something like +1000v on one stator and -1000v on the other, don't quote me on that because I know nothing of headphone ESL bias voltages.
 Both the diaphragm and the ribbon will be biased at DC ground. The ribbon will be 0 ohms which pretty much means no voltage and the diaphragm will be swinging high voltages.
 I expect the current limiting resistor connected to the electrostatic diaphragm to prevent capacitive power transfer into the ribbon but that is just a theory, I have no idea what will happen in reality. A simple spice simulation tells me that the miniscule amount of current transfer will create massive voltage attenuation but there is already a capacitance between the diaphragm and the stators in every electrostatic design so I don't know how it will perform practically.
  
 The amping would be simple enough. Just build one voltage drive stage and one current drive stage and connect them to an amplification stage. I would need to ensure that they remain in phase though.


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## 100VoltTube

In electrostatic drivers, the stators receive the signal, one side in phase the other 180 degrees out of phase, and the diaphragm has a bias, on modern stax headphones, 580v. The signal on the stators needs about 300v p-p min, but most amps can do much more. What I was recommending was not biasing the diaphragm at all; just grounding it, and biasing the stators instead, with both stators at about 600v. The stax diaphragm needs to have a very high surface resistance so that the charge doesn't migrate with the signal and get pushed around on the diaphragm. It's possible that the ribbon side of the diaphragm might be impacted by the electrostatic fields, but its purpose is just to have a current run through it, so maybe the electrostatic fields won't affect it. I think that this conversation has drifted fairly far from the thread's topic, and if you want to continue the discussion, a new thread should be started, or it should switch to PM.


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## coinmaster

Ah yes, I got the idea after thinking about inverted ESL designs, I forgot that the signal is normally biased into the stators. Mine would allow an SE output stage which would be nice but yours solves the capacitance issue which is also nice. And yeah you're right we have drifted off topic. I'll shut up now and continue in P.M.


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## Mohnoh

(First time posting on head-fi - though not wholly new to hi-fi - so please forgive my ignorance on certain things with regards to my post...)

Fascinating build! Certainly inspiring - as such, I have a question for those knowledgeable, but what are your guys' views on the best method of actually creating the planar transducer? 

-Like if Pyralux - as used by the op - vs. Mylar+aluminum foil is preferred, and why? 
-Or what is the method/how does one go about etching the traces? (What sort of solution is used, how one would jig it up, and how does one determine the appropriate spacing for the etches with regards to the magnets used and such?)
-Is it beneficial to go push-pull vs. single-sided? (Worth the added resources/effort?)
-How does one determine the resistance/ohm rating of the transducer? (Like how voicecoils are done by their windings, planars seem a little more abstract...) 

If you guys also feel that there is any additional knowledge that can be laid upon me, please share!
(Hoping to go about building my own transducer as a result of this thread heh)

But I'll digress, much love and many thanks in advance everyone!


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## Whitigir

Damn! Nice ! How about a silver trace instead of copper ?


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## Garuspik

I want to achieve quality, durability and good power handling. That's why I've chosen copper. By the way, here is few new photos:

   

Please note! That's still a prototype. Some parts aren't painted yet, big gaps, randow screws I've found in my workshop, no grills are installed etc.


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## chinsettawong

How heavy do they weigh?


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## Garuspik

490 grams. Steel heaband made from 0.7mm hardened steel. It looks heavy, but this part weights only about 45 grams. Total weight of magnets is 185 grams. 14 pcs of long bar magnet in each cup.


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## coinmaster

Damn, you must teach me your ways, that's some good quality DIY.


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## Garuspik

That's a long-term project which I hope should grow into a serial product.


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## coinmaster

Good on you man. I'd totally help you out in your endeavor if you didn't live so far away. I too am spending enourmous amounts of time developing designs on the amplifier end of things that I intend to convert into products. After years of R&D I'm pretty satisfied with the superiority of my amplifier designs. Maybe I can hook you up with some sweet complementary amps for your headphones if we both go pro.
I'm soon going to start experimenting with headphones as well, I'm awed by the quality of what you can do with your machines. 
How does your headphones compare to something like the HD800?


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## Garuspik

Frankly speaking I don't like to speak about the sound of my headphones. I prefer other people to do that job  But I'm proud what I've achieved.


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## coinmaster

Well then you need to get some "other people" to let us know.


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## cskippy

I am definitely down for a loaner/review unit.  Let us know if/when this happens.  I'm very impressed with your work!


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## mitchell2001

mitchell2001 said:


> I think using diametrically magnetized cylindrical magnets would be better than using bar magnets. It would be like the Ether flows but without the complex 3D printed wave guides. I found a place to order them but they will have to be custom made.https://www.kjmagnetics.com/custom.asp


looks like me and hifiman came to the same conclusion except they used a "D" like structure to give maximum surface area.


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## rellik (May 21, 2017)

Wow those grilles on that CF set look like they came from a recast R129 mercedes front grille. That should be just, hmm, something interesting. The question is if that car went completly "The Night Flier collab Phantoms" or if it was still doing its "Escape from LA" style.

I wonder what part of a land cruiser would make good grille material...btw thx


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## MuZo2

Kennerton Audio implemented semi circular bar magnets 2 years back in their planar headphones, so what Hifiman did is not something new.


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## rellik

Kennerton, gotta love the name, You know like Kennerton, I think it was a Cereal wayy back when. You remember eh? When they used to Milk the cow's 

Besides the point, electrostat mics and drivers have been around well before the year 1776. That sadly means no patents lawers or pre-lawers.


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## windcar

Garuspik said:


> First I've assembled headphones with some noname chinese headband. Cups I've made from aluminium. And with all that things I came into very friendly (at least to me  ) audiophile store that specializes in  headphones.



May I know where I can buy these headphone shell?


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## mitchell2001

windcar said:


> May I know where I can buy these headphone shell?


 i,d like to know too


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## CoffeeCutie

This is simply astounding.  I built a few planar headphone drivers using my 3d printer/ some N50 magnets a number of months ago...  Not as cool anymore, I didn't see this thread....  

The quality of your work is inconceivable!!!


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## Garuspik

Hello! Sorry for couple of month without updates!
Finally yesterday I've received my custom membranes for 10 pairs of headphones. They vary from 34.8 to 35.3 ohm. I consider this to be a good result.

 
Macro shot of traces. You can see what quality I've finally achieved.
 
Also I've made a first set of inner parts from fiberglass plastic. 
My custom ordered magnets will be installed in them
  
Membrane itself will be glued here:
 

Ordered 300 pcs of N52 grade neodymium magnets. Expensive, but worth it.

 
Test assembling without membrane

  
Force of magnetic repulsion is HUGE
  

I hope you like my work. Tomorrow I'll assemble membrane and magnetic system in headphone cup


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## CoffeeCutie

I like this work!  I was considering buying some custom magnets too.  I am working on a small in with a larger magnet company (in China), but I am kind of curious about how you got yours.  I was thinking about etching my own pyralux (good call!!!!) material, but it seems like you are able to get them fabricated elsewhere?  I was toying with either a photoresist etch (better) or 3d printing a removable trace on the copper (faster).   So cool to watch this unfold...


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## Garuspik

I've ordered my custom pcb on pyralux in local factory in Ukraine. Trace is 0.25 mm wide. Not really good idea to make it on your kitchen


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## GREQ

Wow, stunning work.
It's certainly been worth the wait. Looking forward to the next update


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## Garuspik

Thanks. A few more photos how I assemble mebranes for left and right channel.

   
I'm proud that I achieved a big square without any compromises. That took me a long time.


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## chinsettawong

Very nice and beautiful work.  By the way, how thick is your spacer?


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## Garuspik

3mm per side


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## chinsettawong (Jul 26, 2017)

Wow.  That's a lot thicker than electrostatic's. 

Thanks.


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## Garuspik

Yes, but it can move much more air.


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## chinsettawong

Yes, I understand.  You also don't have to tension your diaphragm so tight and you get better bass that way too.


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## MuZo2

How thick are membranes?


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## Garuspik

MuZo2 said:


> How thick are membranes?



12 um capton + 7 um copper.


----------



## Garuspik

chinsettawong said:


> Yes, I understand.  You also don't have to tension your diaphragm so tight and you get better bass that way too.



Sure you understand  You're the author of the most outstanding DIY esl headphones!


----------



## rikk009

Very inspiring...learning a lot from you


----------



## rgonzale

I just built a pair of planar-magnetic headphones by stealing the already-built elements from some Monsoon computer speakers:
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphgonz/music-monstein-headphones

But your project is much more ambitious and technically challenging, since you've built both the headband and the drivers yourself!

One major problem I encountered with the Monsoon elements was driver matching -- the resonant frequency varies over an octave from sample to sample. I was curious whether you have a similar problem and how you "tune" the low frequency resonance? Do you adjust the tension by hand?


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## Garuspik (Jul 29, 2017)

To be sure that tension is equal I use glass and water. Make glass a wet, then put a film on it and remove air under the film with a help of... credit card. I suggest visa gold


----------



## Garuspik

A close look to internal parts of driver and damping


----------



## GREQ

Are you using some kind of craft felt for damping, or have you again cooked up something special?
The vintage-planar modder in me can't resist asking.


----------



## Garuspik (Jul 29, 2017)

This is a medium density 2mm natural felt. Be sure to buy natural wool felt, not polyester one. Marvelous results!
Beleive me, I've tried many materials


----------



## GREQ

Agreed. I've had some of the best results from natural thermal filliing material.
Head-fier 'nickn' showed me the wonders of 'arctic cotton' and 'arctic bamboo', although they go under other names around the world, but are essentially sheets of natural thermal stuffing for winter clothes.

Have you ever tried a material called 'thermolam'? It's a synthetic, heat-resistant filling used mainly for the soft, spongey layer under ironing board covers or cheap winter clothes.
I've found this to also produce some excellent results for extremely tiny amounts of money. It's also a lot more homegenous in it's 'weave' than the natural 'arctic' fillings so it's easier to work with.


----------



## WallofHooligans

I've got an eye on this thread, cause I'm very interested in the process you've used to create such a fabulous planar. Myself, I would like to take the DIY nature to the end of the earth- I want to create something special for very low cost.


----------



## Pradeep Varma

Garuspik said:


> You haven't seen my headphones yet. Those are only prototypes
> I've used Pyralux from dupont. It's 12 um of polyimide and 7 um of copper. I order mask to company that makes pcb's for microelectronics.


I have Hifiman Edition X version 2 headphone, its left channel stops working, the service centre company not cooperative to solve this issue. Can you please suggest me if you can provide me diaphragm for this headphone as I have checked other parts are working well.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Pradeep Varma said:


> I have Hifiman Edition X version 2 headphone, its left channel stops working, the service centre company not cooperative to solve this issue. Can you please suggest me if you can provide me diaphragm for this headphone as I have checked other parts are working well.


You're definitely in the wrong thread... My suggestion to you is to tweet your specific problem to the hifiman twitter, or look for a thread specifically addressing hifiman gear.


----------



## Pradeep Varma

WallofHooligans said:


> You're definitely in the wrong thread... My suggestion to you is to tweet your specific problem to the hifiman twitter, or look for a thread specifically addressing hifiman gear.


Thanks for suggestion


----------



## CoffeeCutie

Well, I did end up getting a box of pyralux kapton LF    Your photos speak volumes, thanks for continuing to share!  -Jess


----------



## 100VoltTube

Pradeep Varma said:


> I have Hifiman Edition X version 2 headphone, its left channel stops working, the service centre company not cooperative to solve this issue. Can you please suggest me if you can provide me diaphragm for this headphone as I have checked other parts are working well.


If the problem is a broken trace on the diaphragm, you're kind of OL (out of luck) if hifiman won't replace it for you. Have you checked the wires leading from the input jack to the diaphragm?


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks guys. Don't forget about this thread! Final headphones will be ready soon.
Frankly speaking they are ready for about 2 month. But I spent this time to get rid from excessive weight.


----------



## GREQ

Garuspik said:


> Thanks guys. Don't forget about this thread! Final headphones will be ready soon.
> Frankly speaking they are ready for about 2 month. But I spent this time to get rid from excessive weight.



If "excessive weight" includes surplus headphones, many will be happy to help you with that problem I'm sure.
Definitely one of the more exciting threads around here.


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## Garuspik

Nice joke  No, I've spent many hours finding rigid but ligtweight materials that aren't afraid of shock impacts.
I have the biggest effective area of diaphragm ( ~50 sq. cm) and very massive double sided magnet structure. 14 pcs of 85*3*3 mm magnet blocks in each cup. Headphones won't be lightweight, but my target is 500 gr. Magnets itself weight ~200 grams.


----------



## GREQ

Did you have any success with single sided magnet structures? 
Or does that require a more complex type of magnet or trace design?


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## Garuspik

It's require exactly same circuit. Just remove one side of magnet structure.
Sure I've made some experiments. Differencies are:
- Lack of dynamics
- less sensitive
- double sided structure deliver much better punch and transient attack
- minus 200 gramms


----------



## GREQ

Sounds similar to my experiment with the Audiotronic AHP66 (almost identical to Akai ASE-50) after taking out one magnet (since it's one magnet per side).


----------



## chinsettawong

Have you tried using other type of magnets?  Perhaps you can find something with lighter weight and less magnetic force, but you can use thinner spacers to compensate for the lower efficiency.  I remember you use 2 mm spacers.  What if you can use 0.5 ~ 0.6 mm spacers?


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

chinsettawong said:


> Have you tried using other type of magnets?  Perhaps you can find something with lighter weight and less magnetic force, but you can use thinner spacers to compensate for the lower efficiency.  I remember you use 2 mm spacers.  What if you can use 0.5 ~ 0.6 mm spacers?



This. Try a rounded cobalt bar magnet.


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## WallofHooligans

Bigger spacers also equals bigger bass characteristics though, so changing that could change the way they sound in another way. It could also change some of the soundstage qualities, but not nearly as much as the distance of the driver from your ears could. Still, worth a try.


----------



## Garuspik

WallofHooligans said:


> Bigger spacers also equals bigger bass characteristics though, so changing that could change the way they sound in another way. It could also change some of the soundstage qualities, but not nearly as much as the distance of the driver from your ears could. Still, worth a try.



Exactly, my design moves a lot of ear. To do so I need big spacers. Benefit - big dynamic range and good bass extension.


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## WallofHooligans

Well, there are other ways to achieve similar results, you don't have to keep the spacers as far across. You can mess with the bass venting on the earpad side of the cans. If I remember correctly, reducing the size of the hole(s) in the baffle might help.


----------



## Garuspik

We have only one honest way to achieve good bass - move a lot of air. Yep, what you're talking about can be compared with bass reflex system in loudspeakers. But have you ever compared bookshelf speakers with bass reflex and big closed box speaker? Both can have 40 hz -3 db, but impression is totally different.
That's a main principle of my design - big headphones that move large amount of air. In comparison with hifiman and Audeze I've managed to construct much bigger membrane in same size of cup.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Garuspik said:


> We have only one honest way to achieve good bass - move a lot of air. Yep, what you're talking about can be compared with bass reflex system in loudspeakers. But have you ever compared bookshelf speakers with bass reflex and big closed box speaker? Both can have 40 hz -3 db, but impression is totally different.
> That's a main principle of my design - big headphones that move large amount of air. In comparison with hifiman and Audeze I've managed to construct much bigger membrane in same size of cup.


Well, that's probably all true, but the difference here is in headphones, and not different sizes of speakers. Ask any fostex mk2 modder how to get better bass out of their cans, and they will give you a plethora of options that don't involve creating a thicker spacer between the driver and the magnet...

But actually, if you want to increase the amount of air being moved by the driver, without modifying the housing at all, you should try corrugating the driver.


----------



## GREQ

There is an immediate problem with comparing this DIY project with the Fostex T50/20 mkII lineup, and that is that they are based on different principles.
In this project, the open-back design absolutely requires the largest possible diaphragm to push the most air possible.
This is something I can confirm with my experiences with the HE-500 and NAD RP18 and lots of modding, pad rolling, etc...

But with a closed-back or semi-closed back design (Fostex T50 mkII), the kind of bass you're getting is a completely different quality. 
I've modded the T20mkii (semi-closed like T50 and for all intents and purposes almost identical) and the T40mkii closed back, and the quality in bass compared to large-diaphragm open-back planars is poor. 
Not to say that the sound quality from these headphones is bad - they can still be modded to sound incredibly good.
The best you can do with these (IMO) is get deep, but very tight bass, that doesn't go very loud.
As soon as you tease out more bass volume, it goes boomy, ruins the tonal balance and you lose overall objective sound quality.
The flip side, is that often this kind of sound can also be desirable and extremely fun


----------



## Garuspik

WallofHooligans, when you're modding something you're limited in options and can only change acoustic characteristics of housing of the driver. I'm not a modder, that's a standalone project without any single factory made part.
I made such thick spacers because tension of the diaphragm isn't too strong. I've made numerous variants, listened to them and measured and finally have chosen optimal tension. And if spacer is below 2mm diaphragm will hit magnets.


----------



## GREQ

Garuspik said:


> And if spacer is below 2mm diaphragm will hit magnets.



Ooh.. sounds like some nice excursion there.


----------



## WallofHooligans

I still believe corrugating the driver should yield a better middle ground. You can corrugate and then tension the driver more.


----------



## Garuspik

WallofHooligans said:


> I still believe corrugating the driver should yield a better middle ground. You can corrugate and then tension the driver more.


That's a plan for future model 

And now a progress update - I've finally achieved good results in making a cup. It's rigid, strong and lightweight (~40 grams). It's made from caprolactone - some sort of lightweight and extremely strong plastic. Rather complex part, so it took a while till I've finally made it with good surface, ready for paint work.

 

And now you see haw rare-earth magnets are mounted inside. Such construction is very precise and eliminate errors during assembling.


----------



## MuZo2

You would need metal structure to hold that magnets in place for longer duration.


----------



## GREQ

From wikipedia:
"Caprolactone hydrolyses rapidly and the resulting hydroxycarboxylic acid displays unexceptional toxicity, as is common for the other hydroxycarboxylic acids.[9] It is known to cause severe eye irritation. Exposure may result in corneal injury."

This doesn't sound like the best plastic to be worn, especially near the eyes.
Is it a different polimer based on caprolactone, or have you somehow treated it to make it safe?


----------



## Garuspik

MuZo2 said:


> You would need metal structure to hold that magnets in place for longer duration.



No  I've spent many time to construct this. It's reliable and lightweight. First versions indeed have metal parts.



GREQ said:


> This doesn't sound like the best plastic to be worn, especially near the eyes.
> Is it a different polimer based on caprolactone, or have you somehow treated it to make it safe?



It's my bad English. Caproloctane is a mono molecule and toxic, Poliamide is macromolecule and safe.
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamide

Caproloctane is a powder:





Type of polyamide I've used in Russian has name 'kaprolon'. So I decided that in English it'll be caproloctane))


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## MuZo2

Milled part?


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## Garuspik

MuZo2 said:


> Milled part?



Yes. Had some difficulties with thin walls and achieving good clean surface.
Tried 3d printer and don't like the durability of what I've got.


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## Garuspik (Sep 8, 2017)

Some photos from the assembling process. That's not a final look for sure. I could call this rather a sceleton. But soon all paint work and all smoll parts will be ready and I'll present you a final product.


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## cskippy

I'm not so sure about the pivot system you have currently.  It doesn't allow the ear pieces to be staggered at all which could create fitment problems for some people.  Everything else looks great though.


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## Garuspik

Cskippy - it allows even more then traditional headphones. Cups has two degrees of freedom + you can adjust clamp force of the earpads.


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## GREQ

The headband looks like it's very thick and heavy.
Obviously there must be a fine balance so it's able to carry the weight of the heavy magnets on either side, but it is a little concerning that it's going in the same direction as other big, heavy planars.

Have you considered designing a lighter, more conventional suspension headband system? 
I usually just bend the metal parts on a headphone when I'm not happy with the clamping force, and I know others do the same.
It's actually a saving grace when there are metal parts to bend instead of a fully plastic design that forces you to be stuck with the manufacturers choice.


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## Garuspik

GREQ said:


> The headband looks like it's very thick and heavy.
> Obviously there must be a fine balance so it's able to carry the weight of the heavy magnets on either side, but it is a little concerning that it's going in the same direction as other big, heavy planars.
> 
> Have you considered designing a lighter, more conventional suspension headband system?
> ...



Greg, headband is made from 0.7 mm thick hardened spring steel  Weight is 45 grams.
I'll show you the pivot system closer. As you can see - you can adjust space between cups and so adjust clamping force.
  
Also you can adjust an angle


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## WallofHooligans

I think you could talk for ages about what you do and do not like about a design, but I don't "get" the resurgence of square-ish headbands from the likes of high end gear. I understand the value of easy to fabricate, but I don't understand why high end companies like hifiman and abyss would walk the same line as a bedroom diy-er.


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## Garuspik

You're not right - squareish and round headbands are of the same difficulty to produce. It's just more comfortable for my taste. And first I've made conventional headband like in He-1000.

p.s. I don't think about myself as bedroom diy-er. This project is much more serious.


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## WallofHooligans

I'm not sure that that's entirely true, since round doesn't necessarily mean you have a suspension system between the user's head and the band itself. I also don't see how you can consider the He-1000 to be conventional, from any standpoint.
Not intended as an insult, I mean bedroom diy-er mostly literally.


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## leeperry (Sep 8, 2017)

WallofHooligans said:


> bedroom diy-er


Lol that's ballsy, please don't upset the man as we're all very impressed by your work and look forward to seeing more pics please 

Of course a dual headband like the new Hifiman's and Yamaha HP-1 woulda been nice.


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## GREQ

leeperry said:


> Of course a dual headband like the new Hifiman's and Yamaha HP-1 woulda been nice.



I thought that's exactly what this headband is.
Those two slits on the sides: I assume that's where the suspension headband part will sit and adjust.


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## Garuspik

GREQ said:


> I thought that's exactly what this headband is.
> Those two slits on the sides: I assume that's where the suspension headband part will sit and adjust.



Exactly. There will be asjustable leather headband. I'll show it soon.


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## Garuspik

Finaly received titanium parts for my headbands. Realtively simple part, but it took a while to make everything neatly.

   
In the middle you can see a 0.5mm decrease in height. I'll install there aluminium 0,5mm circles with R and L. They'll be printed on the background of the same color as cups. If cup is orange for example, then background is orange. 
Side titanium sliders will be attached to adjusteble leather headband.
Total weight is 114 gr.


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## WallofHooligans

It doesn't look goofy with the little knob on top of your head? Reminds me of those headphones with the little box amp that sits right at the top.


----------



## GREQ

WallofHooligans said:


> It doesn't look goofy with the little knob on top of your head? Reminds me of those headphones with the little box amp that sits right at the top.



As if you'd wear these outdoors? XD


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## Garuspik

This knob adjust distance between cups and in such way you can adjust pressure applied to you ears.
I also don't like this knob but that adjustment turned out to be very usefull. Have any ideas how to avoid knob but preserve that adjustment?


----------



## WallofHooligans

Garuspik said:


> This knob adjust distance between cups and in such way you can adjust pressure applied to you ears.
> I also don't like this knob but that adjustment turned out to be very usefull. Have any ideas how to avoid knob but preserve that adjustment?


Well, I don't exactly understand how they move. From the pictures I can see that both sides can pivot, but do they turn independently? If it's as simple as it seems, a simple flat rivet would work fine. If the adjustment also lets you pull the two sides apart, then that's a little different, but you can probably do something similar with just as simple a solution. Mind showing me the headband without the titanium bit in the middle?


----------



## Garuspik

Here is photo of 2 parts without knob.
I think now you understand how distance can be adjusted.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner, and thanks for the pictures. To be honest, I'm not to fond of the way that both sides of the band are stacked. As is, one band will be slightly higher than the other one, and I can imagine that distance between the two growing with use and abuse of regular, normal sessions. The thing is though, that I don't exactly see the point of there being extension from the middle of the band. Most headphones have the same sort of extension, but instead of one focal point, they have two, on both sides of the band. I think that that's probably best, even if just because humans aren't exactly symmetrical. I can see however, that sort of bracket being an interesting way to increase or decrease clamping force on the user's ears, Though I sort of expect that to be just as easy to adjust my adjusting the point of tension of the leather band that goes over your head.

Don't take what I say as good criticism though, you've got the designed and finished piece in your hands- you know better than I do. If you're dead set on that design with the knob on top, I could probably spitball some ideas.


----------



## cskippy

His design has normal sliders to adjust length.  Clamping force is a combination of extension and head width, so having the middle knob adjustment allows users to adjust the clamping force to their preference.  It's not a bad idea.  My only concern is pad swivel might not be enough and users might have a hard time aligning the two sides when adjusting the center knob.


----------



## Garuspik

WallofHooligans said:


> As is, one band will be slightly higher than the other one



Nope. One part is shorter then another and they are aligned.



> , and I can imagine that distance between the two growing with use and abuse of regular, normal sessions.



It should be aligned one time per person and after that you don't need any adjustments. In fact it's much easier then it looks. Tooks maybe 10 seconds.


----------



## Garuspik

Finally got aluminium parts. A few fresh pics.


----------



## rikk009

Nice colour scheme. They look very pretty and hopefully even better sonically.


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks, i'll make several colour combinations and maybe same texture prints.
Have done first prtion of cups. Need to paint them.


----------



## buke9

The headband looks kinda like the Abyss but they don't have the side adjustments just the width as the the height is a elastic self adjusting thing. The progress you've made looks really good. Have not read thru all of it but looks good. I definitely don't have the patience or aptitude for that matter to take on something like this so kudos to you . Just think the big V on the grill is going to cost you in some soundstage as a grill mod on the HE-400 from the small hole to what was actually grill material for someone's hot rod build was a big difference just saying.


----------



## WallofHooligans

I'm sure that's true. You could always have your design painted into an open grille, but I wouldn't worry about acoustic resonance yet. Speaking of which, what does the big "v" stand for? Upside down Audeze?


----------



## Garuspik

Big V stands for Verum


----------



## Garuspik

Finish line is close. I have all parts for first 5 pcs of headphones and today I've started assembling. Here is internal view of magnet system:

  

And here is several photos of almost assebled unit. I haven't installed grilles, damping material and several decorative parts.
     

Also I plan to make a logo via hot pressing on leather headband.


----------



## Moochibond

Great job Garuspik, Looks fantastic!


----------



## mandrake50

Moochibond said:


> Great job Garuspik, Looks fantastic!


Yes it really does look quite nice. I like to wood work in particular. Love to understand how they sound once they are complete.


----------



## chinsettawong

Very nice and beautiful!


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks guys. 
I'm a DIY-er that want to become-a-brand (as most DIY-ers want ) but I don't have any idea how to make clear to many people how they sound?
I don't want to describe sound of my own headphones.
Any ideas how to solve that?


----------



## Moochibond

Hi Garuspik,

I don't know what country you live in but you could contact Jude and ask him if he knows any Headfi'ers in your country, with golden ears, who have experince reviewing headphones and may be willing to test your invention. Contact those he recommends, asking them if they would be willing to report their findings back to you. May also be a good idea to have these members agree via PM or Email that their findings are not for a public review/release but for their interest and your research only, and perhaps ask them to sign a non-disclosure agreement?


----------



## Garuspik

I live in Ukraine. In Ukraine already and soon in Russia people will listen to them. But I'm intrested in USA and EU market.
About non-disclosure\ private review etc - nah, don't want to act like. People should write their impressions honest and clear.
And yes, I'm absolutely confident that I've created really good headhpones =)


----------



## leeperry

How much does it weight? Couldn't you make the headband sides rounder instead of square-angled?


----------



## Moochibond (Oct 27, 2017)

Garuspik said:


> And yes, I'm absolutely confident that I've created really good headhpones =)



I wish you much success!


----------



## Garuspik

leeperry said:


> How much does it weight? Couldn't you make the headband sides rounder instead of square-angled?



550 grams.
Sure I could, but from my point of view that's a more comfortable shape. It deliver equal pressure to the whole ear.


----------



## Sonifonic

Hi Garuspik,


Congratulations, great Project, I am developing a DIY Planar to, and thanks to open your projects to community.


I think its very smart idea to use a diamagnets bars, because it’s a simple way to guaranty a magnetic field without a metallic mask to provide a magnets short cut between different poles. If you want to improve your magnetic circuit my advise that you utilize FEMM software, it is simple and easy.


Other aspect of your project is the size of your membrane, biggest is better, better sound pressure with low THD, but in commercial aspect I think it complete opposite.


But I would like know, how efficient is your headphone, is it works in a mobile phone? Another thing is a bass response, because it is depends of flexibility of de membrane, a factor that is not easy to control, it is depends of de material that circuit is made, I think kapton in your case.


One biggest challenge for the planar manufactures is turbulence that magnetic at de front causes in air flow, but you ever comment that when you remove it, the sound lose the power. In my opinion this is the interest point to innovate.


Good luck.


----------



## Garuspik

Hello *Sonifonic*
Construction of my headphones is absolute classic - double sided magnetic systemn and thin diaphragm with conductor traces between magnetic bars.
But what differs my design from others is a approach to design. Main goals : big membrane + big excursion + decent sensitivity + moderate production costs.
Just compare my magnetic system and membrane:
   
And something like Fostex TH 500
 

Sensitivity is 94 db and you can listen loud even with output of Iphone. But for sure such headphones need a dedicated amplifier.
About bass  - I made rather weak tension of membrane so it have big excursion. Big excursion + big area = capability of low frequency reproduction and big dynamic headroom.
So distance between membrane and magnets is huge. It is 3mm per side. Thats why sensitivity is rather low even with such big magnets.


----------



## mandrake50

I am curious, how do you adjust the tension on the diaphragm? How to you measure it so that you can maintain unit to unit consistency. One thing that seems to be a problem with most planar headphones is unit to unit differences in sound. Two examples are Audeze and Hifiman. I have listened to models of both where differences between examples of the same model were quit audible. Not subtly so, but easily heard.

BTW, I really like your design philosophy!


----------



## Garuspik

Mandrake, really good question! I take glass and water. Then I moisten glass and put TWO future diaphragms on wet glass.
Here is photo of future left and right channels on dry glass.

 

Then I take credit card ( I recommend Visa Infinite or at least Platinum  ) and start removing air bubbles under the film. They are clearly visible. Once no single air bubble under the diaphragm I glue spacers on both channels and then cut off excess film.
After assembling to be sure everything is right I measure resonance frequency of both channel. Difference is about 3 Hz only.


----------



## mandrake50

Thanks,
Quite innovative. Do you just eyeball the location of that spacer or use a jig or something to accurately locate it?

Looking at the pictures it looks quite good.


----------



## Garuspik

No need of jig. See round circles on membrane? That's marks that i need to combine with holes on spacer. When i see all those circles from holes of spacers - that's it, correct position.


----------



## 100VoltTube

huh, so you don't need to tension the diaphragm at all?

Cool new 'phones by the way.


----------



## Garuspik

I tension it with a help of surface tension of water. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension
It is really decent tension that is equal from sample to sample.


----------



## xantiema

This is way too cool, new to head-fi, but loving this project. Can't wait for the final result


----------



## manishex

Can I buy this headphone already? ^_^


----------



## Garuspik

manishex said:


> Can I buy this headphone already? ^_^



I must say 'no'. What If I've created some awful sounding headphones? I want to sell my headphones only after I receive some reviews and better to let people listen to them before they buy. Maybe some moneyback but it's hard to arrange across the ocean.

Trying to be honest with head-fi society. My goal is not to sell several pieces and left people disappointed. Call this vainglory, but I want to be proud of my work and know that buyer will listen to them and not just store on a shelf.

Next week I should finish first headphones as they should look and work in a small scale production. Then I plan to ask for reviews from several well-known headphone reviewers. I hope they would be interested.


----------



## xantiema

Can't wait, godspeed!


----------



## chinsettawong

I wish you success, Garuspik.


----------



## mandrake50

Yes, good luck. If you need a volunteer, that is me. The only issue is that I am an engineer, not a poet...


----------



## Sonifonic

Hi Garuspik,

I suggest another way to you have a product  to sell and continue developed your headphone. You could try to find a chinese headphone to use as a donor, like supelux hd-330 ou some wood headphone from alibaba express, then you develop a 3D print model for internal parts and provide files to download, finally you sell a assembled membrane with frame and custom magnets.

Your customer will be able to print parts, buy this chinese headphone, then put everything together and enjoy a planar headphone for a good price, your responsibility cover only the membrane, it is easy and cheap to send mail post office.

Good luck.


----------



## Garuspik

mandrake50 said:


> Yes, good luck. If you need a volunteer, that is me. The only issue is that I am an engineer, not a poet...



Same as me 




Sonifonic said:


> Hi Garuspik,
> 
> I suggest another way to you have a product  to sell and continue developed your headphone. You could try to find a chinese headphone to use as a donor, like supelux hd-330 ou some wood headphone from alibaba express, then you develop a 3D print model for internal parts and provide files to download, finally you sell a assembled membrane with frame and custom magnets.
> 
> ...



Oh no, that was my first idea to take some parts from Chinese headphones. 
Unfortunately, no cup suited my goal - the biggest possible membrane and magnet system. So I've made with CNC several samples.

Then I tried to use 3D printing. My magnet system is so powerful that broke into parts 3d printed models with 1.5mm thick wall.
So everything in this headphones is made from scratch. Heart of the headphones is membrane + magnet system. Assembling is rather difficult and dangerous. My numerous bruises are witnesses


----------



## Sonifonic

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-one


Hi Garuspik,


This article from innerfidelity has the methodology to analyze headphone response, I think the 300Hz test is the best, because even with ordinary microphone is possible to measure de headphone and validate  the effects that you can found in the methodology, in my case the 50Hz test not seems correct, I think a dummy head microphone is needed to this test give the correctly results.


Thanks,


----------



## WaffleIron

These are shaping up incredibly well. Great work man.


----------



## Garuspik (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks. Yesterday I've assembled first headphones. I'll show you pictures of the finished unit soon. And now I'm assembling second one in another colour.

 

I need several opinions - do you like it more or less in comparison with "wood"?
And another variant:


----------



## cskippy

The "wood" finish is of a much higher quality compared to the carbon fiber vinyl.  Carbon fiber and gold does look good but the "stitches" are too large and not in a straight line which ruins the look.


----------



## xantiema

Carbon fiber vinyl in general looks blatantly cheap and amateur-ish, not to take away from your design. I don't think it fits with high-end phones =)


----------



## Garuspik

What about such variant? But with better 'black of course'
 

I do prefer wood finish also. But looked at that and thought - why not?


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> What about such variant? But with better 'black of course'
> 
> 
> I do prefer wood finish also. But looked at that and thought - why not?



I have to admit, there are no saving the bad looks of carbon fiber vinyl..
I think companies have been overusing it on cheap products for years, and the connotations with the design has been becoming negative. Also the looks to me, just doesn't do any headphones justice.

Simplistic design with hydro-painting could be worthwhile looking into perhaps. Each phone would come out different, and they would probably need a protective layer ontop.


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks. That's what I wanted to hear  I'm still experimenting with look of headphones.
Sure hydropainting is protected by 2 layers of lacquer.


----------



## GREQ

Also carbon fibre + wood is like combining antique furniture  with a high-end sports car... ech... 

Carbon fibre only works if it's real, and goes well with brushed aluminium and vinyl (or extremely fine grain leather) headbands or high quality glossy plastics or glossy paint finishes... and possibly anodized metals. 
Wood goes best with stainless steel and thick, wrinkly leather and _can_ go well with good metal imitation plastics... but that's a huge gamble.... (all the plastics on the higher end Grados headbands look terrible)

But that's just my opinion.


----------



## xantiema

Leather just looks super high-end, but not sure if that in any way would be possible to integrate in the given area


----------



## GREQ

Oh yeah... leather wouldn't work there, I was speaking more in general including headbands and how heavy the headband's leather grain should look best with certain materials...
Unless you include the Audio Technica ATH-L3000... those have leather coated cups. XD


----------



## mandrake50

I like the wood the best so far. Some like the bright colors, especially in _EMs, but I am not fond of it for any higher grade products. Depending on pricing, there may be a market for it, but it may well turn off people looking for quality first and stunning onlookers second._


----------



## xantiema

So far I also like wood the best, and I kind of dig the brass color for the grills aswell, but it has room for improvement


----------



## leeperry

At the end of the day what matters most is the sound and I don't think you can beat aluminium when it comes to low weight & stray resonances/vibrations singing along. You can anodize it in black too.


----------



## Garuspik

Density of aluminium is about 3, plastic 1-1.2, wood 0.7-1.1
And yes, everything is made for sound. But don't know how to demonstrate my achievements to people worldwide?


----------



## xantiema

Pick the most reputable head-fi reviewers and take it from there. That should give you traction if they are successful


----------



## Garuspik

I thought that you need to pay them for review....


----------



## xantiema

I doubt people will take money for reviewing a DIY project that looks promising, and the views could generate enough alone for it to be an incentive for them. I could be wrong though.


----------



## I g o r (Nov 4, 2017)

Garuspik said:


> Density of aluminium is about 3, plastic 1-1.2, wood 0.7-1.1
> And yes, everything is made for sound. But don't know how to demonstrate my achievements to people worldwide?



Send samples for review to Tyll, from Inner Fidelity.


----------



## GREQ

I g o r said:


> Send samples for review to Tyll, from Inner Fidelity. And to Zeos, from Z reviews (YouTube).



Considering this is one of, if not the most exciting DIY project (to be made commercial) ever; going straight near the top of the foodchain is a good idea.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

My personal advice is send them to Tyll.
Z reviews kept an Eikon for mmm like one entire year, avoid like the plague (he also doesn't know a schiit about audio).
Try to achieve clean CSD (no ortho wall), neutral frequency response and low distortion, and subjectively natural sound quality, put a realistic price and it will sell very well.
The problem with planars is that, every model has FR anomalies like dips or treble spikes and strong ringing in the 4-5khz region, the only planar headphone that doesn't exhibit that behavior is the Audio Zenith PMx2, which is a super modded Oppo PM-2 that sells for 1.8k.

Good products shill themselves, I would try to avoid "paid" Head-fi reviews and Zeos, just send them to Tyll 

That's my opinion, good luck with your project


----------



## biggbenn74

Just stumbled across this thread, it's been an interesting read. Hope these end up in the right hands for a review. Who knows, maybe one day a lot of us Head-Fiers will be rocking these. 

Love the finish on them too.


----------



## xantiema

Tyll from Inner Fidelity would be on high up there if I have a priority list


----------



## leeperry

Well this guy went alu: http://myst.pro/en/page/izophones60

But he only provides 1y warranty, they cost a grand IIRC and the usual problem with those niche orthos is that they are fragile, replacing the drivers after warranty ran out costs a bundle and every few months they'll come up with newer revs that kill resale value. No matter how good they'd sound, these are major buzz killers.


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks for your advice. I'll try to contact Tyll.
About membranes in my planars - i've constructed them keeping in mind that membrane is some sort of consumable. It's easy to replace and rather cheap. Self cost for me is about 30$ for pair.


----------



## manishex

ToroFiestaSol said:


> My personal advice is send them to Tyll.
> Z reviews kept an Eikon for mmm like one entire year, avoid like the plague (he also doesn't know a schiit about audio).
> Try to achieve clean CSD (no ortho wall), neutral frequency response and low distortion, and subjectively natural sound quality, put a realistic price and it will sell very well.
> The problem with planars is that, every model has FR anomalies like dips or treble spikes and strong ringing in the 4-5khz region, the only planar headphone that doesn't exhibit that behavior is the Audio Zenith PMx2, which is a super modded Oppo PM-2 that sells for 1.8k.
> ...


I concur with this, Tyll recently posted how he reviews headphones in a video which is quite nice. 
On the other hand, Z reviews always makes me cringe, he's been doing lo-fi gear for a long time, the type that says cables make no difference without trying then a year later custom cables everything. 
He also seems like the type that listens to a headphone for a few secs on his mediocre gear and comes to a conclusion which he rants about for 20 mins incoherently.
Therefore it's no surprise his reviews don't really match what pages and pages of headfi have said, his "wall of fame" seems to be very personal.


----------



## leeperry

Having a Z review with his head-cam in his slummy place certainly won't help to anything, Tyll & Jude are your guys if they are willing to help.


----------



## rikk009

Zeos had a fanbase which thinned out pretty quick as they started calling his bluff. Actually, folks nowadays prefer to watch videos rather than read a review, that was his claim to fame but now we have more sensible people making good audio reviews on YT. 

Let's not derail this thread, keeping an eye on this project. I get pretty excited whenever I see a new post in here. If I can find out a way to make the membrane will try it out.


----------



## Garuspik

Hooray! Finally today I've assembled a complete unit. Will try to contact top reviewers. Maybe they will be interested in reviewing.


----------



## leeperry

What are the L & V for ? How much does it weight ?


----------



## xantiema

That looks fabulous


----------



## Garuspik

leeperry said:


> What are the L & V for ? How much does it weight ?



L - left, on the other cup is R.
V is Verum, same as on grill.
From Latin Verum is truth. When I gave this name to headphones I meant not only truthful sound but also that I have no secrets and will answer any question about any detail of headphones construction.
Weight - 520 grams without cable.


----------



## mandrake50

Looking real good !


----------



## leeperry

Any idea of the street price on these? At least we know you won't ask a grand for spare drivers 

Do they compete with the big boys?


----------



## Garuspik

My goal is to make affordable planars with big and dynamic sound. Price won't be more then 300$ + 30-40$ for shipping.


----------



## Garuspik

leeperry said:


> Do they compete with the big boys?



I don't want to describe sound of my creation. I prefer that another people will do this.


----------



## Whitigir

I say send it to @purk


----------



## manishex

Looks amazing


----------



## chinsettawong

Beautiful!


----------



## WaffleIron

Looks absolutely stunning my dude. Real good work. Would be super cool to see these sent to Tyll for measurement.


----------



## rikk009

Garuspik said:


> My goal is to make affordable planars with big and dynamic sound. Price won't be more then 300$ + 30-40$ for shipping.


You are a gem to the community and that's a really tempting price for your effort. Waiting for some genuine reviews to pop up. Fingers crossed.


----------



## GREQ

The final colour scheme probably won't fit everyone's taste, but I think it looks fantastic.
Reminds me more of the style of the art-deco Morpheus amplifier, or something straight out of 1950's USA. Love it.


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks guys for encouragement. I'll have several colour schemes and show them soon.
Contacted Tyll from Innerfidelity. Hope it would be interesting to him to listen what I've created.


----------



## Moochibond

Morning Garuspik,

Congratulation on building what look like an expertly designed and engineered headphone.

Like many here I’m very much looking forward to reading what the lucky reviewers who end up reviewing your headphone have to say with regard to build, sound etc.

I would also be interested to know a little bit about your professional background, especially regarding how you developed such a broad skill set to be able to build this headphone?


----------



## Garuspik

Thanks.
About my background - i work in a company that is working in a field of plastic molding. And during this work I have relations with companies that have cnc machines, laser cutter, those who make pcb etc. Some of equipment we have in our company.
I think you agree that this project can't be categorized as Do-it-yourself. In my case it's a Designed-by-myself + I know who will do what I've designed 

I'm rather experienced diy-er, but I prefer to make speakers and amplifiers and always did only for personal usage. Can show something if you want.


----------



## OldDude04

Garuspik said:


> Hooray! Finally today I've assembled a complete unit. Will try to contact top reviewers. Maybe they will be interested in reviewing.



Holy hell, those are beautiful! And at your planned price of only $300, you'd better be prepared for a ton of sales.


----------



## chinsettawong

I don’t need to read a reviewer’s review, and I’m sure they sound really good.  Please put me down for your number one production pair.


----------



## Garuspik

I really want opinions of at least one top reviewer before taking money from anybody. Believe me, I don't want to take 300$ and leave a person with something he'll never use. 300, 3000 and even 30.000 won't change anything in my life. Making headphones that will be highly appreciated - will change much more.
I think that my experiment is successful, but it's only* my *opinion.  I want to check whether experienced head-fe'ers share same opinion.
Contacted Tyll Hertsens from Innerfidelity.com a week ago, but unfortunately still no sign of interest from his side. I bet he receives such emails too often


----------



## OldDude04

I'm looking forward to hearing what the reviewers say.


----------



## Garuspik

It's your site *AUDIOHOLIKZReviews*?


----------



## OldDude04

Garuspik said:


> It's your site *AUDIOHOLIKZReviews*?



Its a new blog started by @Hawaiibadboy that I'm a part of. I'm still a newbie to reviewing, my opinion wouldn't help you further your product to be fair. If you want to contact HBB you can do that on this site, or he has a YouTube channel that he does reviews on, you can see that HERE. I'd love to hear what he had to say about your headphones.


----------



## manishex (Nov 22, 2017)

Ideally you would want someone who is reputable and has had good experience with high end gear such as the he-1000, lcd-3, ether flow, hd800s at minimum with good amps/dac so that they can make a valid evaluation on it's performance within the market.


----------



## GREQ

This is why Tyll is the obvious choice, since he also has published experience with a wide variety of DIY modded headphones and various prototypes from bigger companies too.
Being familiar with flagships alone isn't enough IMO. It's the sheer volume and variety of experiences across the spectrum that allows one to make justifiable evaluations.


----------



## manishex

Agreed


----------



## Garuspik

Unfortunately no reply from mr. Tyll;(


----------



## nick n

just get someone to post in a new article comment section when a planar review shows up.


----------



## SoniMax (Nov 25, 2017)

Definitely interested. Can't wait. I've been lurking for a while.
Could you tell us with what range of amps + dacs you've tested them so far. Would be awesome if you could give us some insight into your preliminary observations on what would be needed to power them properly before the reviewers give us their take on it.


----------



## Garuspik

Hello SoniMax, first of all let me explain - I'm not a head-fier. I never had headphones and headphone amps\dacs. I'm a "stationary" audiophile 
At home I listen my headphones from the speaker output of my Exposure amplifier and I like what I hear  So I definitely recommend not to use headphone amplifiers with low sensitivity planar headphones - just use usual amplifiers for speakers.

But for sure I've tested my headphones with dedicated headhone gear.
What I can say - almost ok with Iphone. Rather well with Hifiman HM 603 and the best results with Flux Lab Solid One http://www.fluxlab-acoustics.com/Products/19

p.s. How to get in touch with Tyll?


----------



## 100VoltTube

Garuspik said:


> How to get in touch with Tyll?


you could try PM-ing him here


----------



## Garuspik

I can. If you give me a link to his profile =)


----------



## OldDude04

Garuspik said:


> I can. If you give me a link to his profile =)



I believe THIS is his profile.


----------



## SoniMax

Garuspik said:


> Hello SoniMax, first of all let me explain - I'm not a head-fier. I never had headphones and headphone amps\dacs. I'm a "stationary" audiophile
> At home I listen my headphones from the speaker output of my Exposure amplifier and I like what I hear  So I definitely recommend not to use headphone amplifiers with low sensitivity planar headphones - just use usual amplifiers for speakers.
> 
> But for sure I've tested my headphones with dedicated headhone gear.
> ...


Thank you for the feedback. Keep up the good work.


----------



## xantiema

This is the most exciting DYI project  for me and also day 1 purchase. I am sad Tyll hasn't responded, he would be the perfect guy to review these headphones


----------



## Garuspik

Yep ;( That's sad.


----------



## Moochibond

project86 https://www.head-fi.org/members/project86.51179/ and/or MacedonianHero https://www.head-fi.org/members/macedonianhero.118030/ may be able to help in your quest to find a suitable reviewer


----------



## nick n

project86 knows Tyll... and has posts there. = J G


----------



## MuZo2

Send it to Headphonia
https://www.headfonia.com/picture-sunday-malvalve-creation/


----------



## GREQ

If you or someone you know is going on a trip to Frankfurt in the next couple of weeks I'd love to give it a listen  
I'm not sure how many headphones I've got, but enough to give it a good broad comparison.
(I would review the heck out of it too)


----------



## nick n

Headphonia sounds ideal.


----------



## xantiema

Any updates on this?


----------



## Garuspik

xantiema said:


> Any updates on this?



Sure! New Year and new updates. Frankly speaking, I couldn't achieve from 1 membrane sound that I can consider full. First of all I mean high frequencies. Roll of have started too soon. So I've created some sort of 2 way headphones - coaxial driver where for bass and mid I use planar membrane, for highs - dynamic tweeter. Crossover frequency is 7 khz, order - first.
Currently I try to make the joint invisible and that's the main goal for now.
I do like how it sounds now. Never liked upper highs from planars. From my point of view dynamic headphones are clearly superior in this region.


----------



## cskippy

That's an interesting design change.  Kudos for trying something new.


----------



## Garuspik

What is Kudos? 
That's not a change - I believe it's a design addition.


----------



## Moochibond

Love this idea, planar base and mid / dynamic treble. Will be very interesting to see how you mount the drivers.

Of the headphones I have heard (for me) planars have the best base and mids.


----------



## Garuspik

Moochibond said:


> Love this idea, planar base and mid / dynamic treble. Will be very interesting to see how you mount the drivers.
> 
> Of the headphones I have heard (for me) planars have the best base and mids.



Mounting is very simple - will show it soon. Just a small 28mm tweeter above the magnet system of huge planar membrane. Magnets of the of planar membrane attracted to magnet of tweeter + glue. I've tried to avoid re-reflections so nothing around tweeter hold it. Glue + magnets is absolutely enough (even magnet alone is enough. But I'm kinda reliability freak). And sure It's protected with grills inside earpads. Accidental touch of tweeter is ok, but not with knife ))

Same thoughts about base and mids of planar. But for relatively good HF we need to use ultra thin film and percentage of faulty units within warranty term is too high because of that (first of all I mean Audeze).


----------



## Moochibond

I imagine selecting the “right” tweeter will be key i.e. the tweeter will need to blend with the planar driver. Both drivers should sound as one.


----------



## Garuspik

Moochibond said:


> I imagine selecting the “right” tweeter will be key i.e. the tweeter will need to blend with the planar driver. Both drivers should sound as one.



Indeed. + I need apropriate impedance.
Here is measurements of tweeter (without interpolation)

 
With crossover frequency 7 khz and first order filter (6 db\octave) it's very good.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Haven't looked at this in a while, looks like you've got some real developments going on. Good work Garuspik. Love me some two-way designs, too.


----------



## chinsettawong

I prefer pure planar.

Have you tried thinner diaphragm?


----------



## Muamp

Or thinner spacers?
The larger distance is good for bass and low frequencies but at a huge expense of the high frequencies.


----------



## Garuspik

Muamp said:


> Or thinner spacers?
> The larger distance is good for bass and low frequencies but at a huge expense of the high frequencies.



Exactly. But anyway, I can't achieve extended enough highs from big membrane. I don't know how to explain it in English - when big transducer moves it moves as one piece, as a piston till some frequency, and when above this frequency - only centre of transducer play high frequencies. And this frequency depends on thу size of speaker. That's why for example 1'' dome tweeters play higher then 1.5'' of same construction.
So I've decided to move to 2-way design.


----------



## GREQ

I wonder if the desired results could be achieved without a tweeter, by simply optimizing the acoustic damping and/or ear pad design.
I know I'm not the only one thinking this. (or the only one wishing he could have a go at it  )


----------



## Garuspik

I tell you the truth - not with pyralux film . Anyway I receive a hf roll-off too soon even when I sacrifice bass. Similar film uses Fostex T50 and even with very small membrane it doesn't have enough output on hf.
But! Unlike Audeze or Hifiman this film is extremely reliable. Almost impossible to break the speaker. Ears will be blown much faster, believe me 
Compromises everywhere.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Yep, compromises upon compromises. Speaking of which, have you tried the pleated diaphragm idea? That should offer both a stiffer surface and greater excursion if it's done right. I bet it could be done easily with a little bit of diy ghetto rigging to make a jig. Sort of how companies make heil AMT drivers, but with much less acute accordion esque pleats...


----------



## Garuspik

Yes, I've made a special steel part for embossing a membrane with concentric circles. Will show what I've achieved soon.


----------



## GREQ

Nice, I hope that helps a lot.
I didn't realize the material was so difficult to work with. 
I'd be interested to see all your prototype damping schemes and ear pads etc, but I know this is probably much too much to ask ^_^ I'm sure that's giving away too many 'secrets'.


----------



## WallofHooligans

Garuspik said:


> Yes, I've made a special steel part for embossing a membrane with concentric circles. Will show what I've achieved soon.


That sounds amazing, I really hope you achieve something great!


----------



## Garuspik

GREQ said:


> Nice, I hope that helps a lot.
> I didn't realize the material was so difficult to work with.
> I'd be interested to see all your prototype damping schemes and ear pads etc, but I know this is probably much too much to ask ^_^ I'm sure that's giving away too many 'secrets'.



I have no secrets. This headphones has almost no damping. Like Hifiman He-1000. I've designed my own angle earpads with big opening and big height, but best sound I've achieved with 105mm earpads from audiotechnica.


----------



## Garuspik

Today I've received a die to make embossing on membrane. I'll form stiffening ribs and prevent membrane from moving not at the right angle to magnets. First experiments are on paper.


----------



## Garuspik

A big update - all this time I was working on making a memrane on a new film: mylar + aluminium. I've finally found reliable supplier and can make a more conventional design without 2-way system, crossover etc. This new film is about 7 times lighter then previous and reproduce high frequencies fine. It is 8 um of mylar + 8 um of aluminium.
Here I'll decribe a simple home-made way to produce such transducers (I've ordered more accurate traces on factory, but while I'm waiting for my order I've tried to finaly DIY something).
So here is manual:
1. Take a piece of flat glass and make it wet.
 
2. Put the film on wet glass and flatten it with credit card, wrapped in something soft

3. Cut the future mask of your traces on plotter on self-adhesive film and transfer it on mettalized film
 
 
 
4. Actual transfering on film
 
5. Bath in ferric chloride
 
6. Removing mask
 
7. Membrane
 

That was a first attemp. Second one was much more accurate and I've assembled it in magnet system and then in a cup
  

I've decided to make traces thicker to acheive reliability.


----------



## WallofHooligans

That's very nice. Can you elaborate on this bit - I don't understand what you used at all.


Garuspik said:


> 3. Cut the future mask of your traces on plotter on self-adhesive film and transfer it on mettalized film


----------



## mandrake50

Good to see that you are still working on this. I think going only planar is a better idea than trying to mount, align and integrate a dynamic tweeter. I am glad you found a better material for the driver.


----------



## Garuspik

WallofHooligans said:


> That's very nice. Can you elaborate on this bit - I don't understand what you used at all.



You need such machine

and cut future mask on self-adhesive vinyl and then transfer it on film that form a membrane.



mandrake50 said:


> Good to see that you are still working on this. I think going only planar is a better idea than trying to mount, align and integrate a dynamic tweeter. I am glad you found a better material for the driver.



This project won't be abandoned. There is old russian proverb that i'll try to translate: Better is an enemy of good. So I've spent many time to make an enemy of good headphones  But I'm on finish line. The only thing I need to experiment with is a tension of diaphragm.


----------



## Garuspik

I've received today last parts I need to assemble something I can call a finished product, not a construction sample. 
Upon many measurements and listening tests I've chosen angled natural leather earpads with oval opening. But how to attach it? I don't like 2-sided adhesive tape + I want earpads to rotate inside cup for better customization (remember that earpads are angled?).

So I've cutted 2 circles from magnetic steel with width 0.3mm (weight of each is only 5 grams) and modified magnetic system a bit.
Take a look:

 
I've inserted 9 small rounds magnets and assembled earpads with steel circle:
 
 
 

Magnetic linkage is quite optimal - easy to attach\detach, easy to rotate, impossible to accidentally detach earpads.
Simple and cost-effective. Everything as I like


----------



## Garuspik (Mar 26, 2018)

Finally I've assembled a sample that I consider to be a finished one.


----------



## Moochibond

Looks very comfortable and well built - congratulations!

How does she sound?


----------



## xantiema

Looks fantastic, so excited to read reviews & own one


----------



## Garuspik

Moochibond said:


> Looks very comfortable and well built - congratulations!
> 
> How does she sound?



Yep, they are really comfortable in comparison with other "big guys" on market. Everything is customizable, including clamping force and rotating angled earpads inside cups.

Sound... Who would say bad about his own project that took so many time to build?  But I really like the result. The main achievement - it's a *big* sound with broad soundstage and excellent dynamics. 
I've spent many time in friendly hi-fi store and compared with all major top headphones... No, I haven't built the best headphones in the world  That's for sure, but they are still pretty good and dramatically differs from entry price level planars.


----------



## Garuspik

xantiema said:


> Looks fantastic, so excited to read reviews & own one



Thanks in advance. I've made a promise to Cskippy that I'll send him a sample when I'll be ready. First finished sample was sent locally - to russian reviewer, but soon I'll make several more headphones. Second one will be shipped to USA. I have all parts to make ~10 pcs right now.


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Thanks in advance. I've made a promise to Cskippy that I'll send him a sample when I'll be ready. First finished sample was sent locally - to russian reviewer, but soon I'll make several more headphones. Second one will be shipped to USA. I have all parts to make ~10 pcs right now.


Let us know when the russian review is up - intend to read it with the help of Google Translate


----------



## Garuspik

xantiema said:


> Let us know when the russian review is up - intend to read it with the help of Google Translate



That reminds me old russian anecdote:

- Hi, Ivan. Do you like Enrico Caruso?
- No, he is awful! Alex sang it to me.


----------



## Cdn1234

Garuspik said:


> Wafflelron, hi! I read your thread and you made a mistake in tracing diaphragm
> So let me explain how I did those mini speakers and I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about
> 
> *Step 1*:
> ...





I'm looking to make a planar speaker, could you explain how all this works in laymans terms?

I'm doing this as a project over the summer hopefully, but I don't really have engineering background. I have a few friends who might be able to help,but I'm really looking to understand how to build and work all the planar tech.


If it's ok, I think it would be cool to make the speaker circular and then I'll 3D print a body for it. Is that possible?


Thanks Garuspik!


----------



## youngarthur

When you are ready to sell, I will have a pair.


----------



## Cdn1234

Garuspik said:


> Very broad question. If you have some specific question - i'll try to answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance. Believe me, that's project isn't only about money ( but for sure I want to make many headphones and sell them). So I'd prefer that people really understand what they're going to buy. To let everyone listen is impossible task, but I've sent samples to several reviewers already and soon will send to USA (Cskippy). So AFTER you'll read some opinions - you're welcome.





Well to begin, I'd like to further understand the building process. So you posted the whole thing about the tracing usjng the plotter cutter. When you cut this out, what is taking the place of those lines? Is that the magnet or is it like a piece of foil?


I guess I just need a more comprehensive explanation of how they work. I figure I can replicate what you built, maybe a bit smaller to get better treble (that seems to be my understanding) while still maintaining the bads, and if I mount it open and keep it relatively low resistance I shouldn't have an issue getting it loud enough to act as a speaker. I have a small amp that should be able to power it, I'd guess. 

My questions are: how does the wiring work, where are the magnets and how do they effect the sound, how does the spacing and dampenkda effect the sound, will I have enough power in small circular diaphragms to use them as speakers?

I guess the construction is the hardest part for me to understand since I don't have any experience with this. Do you have any resources that I could refer to to better understand how they work?


Thanks again, and sorry for my lack of specificity.


----------



## Garuspik

Cdn1234, all your questions were answered at the beginning of this thread. Also you can read this article https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work


----------



## WaffleIron

My god man you're coming along wicked fast. Looking incredible so far. I'll be starting work on my planars again soon which should be fun. Out of interest, how much does it cost you to get custom magnets done? I've mostly been using off the shelf bar magnets but they have some downsides and I'd like to move to custom magnets at some point.


----------



## rikk009

@Garuspik Did I miss or you haven't talked about the damping you have used?


----------



## BushidoArts

@Garuspik would it be possible to wrap the edge in a mahogany looking veneer with a matte finish (glossy wood in my opinion doesn't look as good). You're probably to late into the process to try it, but I thought I'd ask because I find that a wood edge makes headphones look more premium. Also a headband that I think is superior to looks than most other headphones (in my opinion of course) is the monolith m560's headband, and where most use a clicking mechanism to adjust the headband the m560 has 2 small metal cables going the band into where it connects to the headphone and is wound up with a spring mechanism (best way I could describe it is it works like a rubber band, when you put it on you head, it stretches to match the shape of your head and when your done it reverts to its original state) Its kind of hard to describe you'd have to look it up. Also it uses spring metal as the top part that solidifies the headphones so they can bend without you fearing it's going to snap on you. If you could combine the headband of the m560 with the driver housing of the Audeze el-8 with a matte mahogany veneer, you might just end up making some of the prettiest headphones out there. Of course you don't have too, looks can be subjective on a headphone so others may think it doesn't look great, this is just my opinion on a good looking set of headphones . I'm fascinated in your project and hearing the details behind everything is awesome; like designing a headphone would be like a dream come true to me, but alas I'm no engineer so I'll be content watching someone else, but if you're interested I have heaps of design ideas. Also side note if you're still looking for someone to review your headphones, I recommend dms3 tv on youtube; he's really good at what he does; and I would enjoy watching a video on them. Anyways, I'm super interested in your project and will be looking forward to how it turns out.


----------



## Torac

I second sending a pair to dms3, his reviews are very comprehensive and he does measurements so it should show how well the headphones perform, he is also known for reviewing products that others haven't looked at yet.


----------



## Garuspik

I'll think about it.


----------



## BushidoArts

@Garuspik What I was trying to convey is the Audeze el-8's veneer, which is what I was talking about. So basically the el-8 with a curved metal headband (conveying thoughts is hard haha). Also may I point out I never said the m560 were good (in fact the only thing I touched on is the appearance of them) however I like the concept of the headband (not saying its good by any means). Also as I clarified I'm no engineer so you'll have to forgive my ignorance when it comes to any of this, however this stuff fascinates me so I put forth an effort to learn. By the way, I in no way think your design looks bad, in fact I really like the looks! I was simply stating an idea wondering if it was even possible to do, and as I clarified it's all opinion on what looks good. If it seems I was telling you to do something to improve your design, that's the farthest thing from what I was doing ,I was only making a suggestion on what would look good in my subjective point of view, just wanted to clarify in case I came off wrong lol. Also if you'll allow me to defend my headphone's a little bit lol ("Chinese Junk?" goodness man have you no mercy haha). You criticized its build quality but the entire headphone itself has no plastic and is mostly metal, as apposed to many other headphone's which are the same price or more expensive that have a bunch of plastic and not much metal,and those removable wooden plates on the side are made of real wood, so for $150 they don't have "terrible" build quality (I firmly believe there's a lot worse stuff out there). Also you said they had bad sound, which while some may say that ,others may not because they enjoy that sound signature. You seem to be someone who is intelligent when it comes to this stuff so you should know sound is completely subjective, I've literally heard someone say that Beats by Dre sounded better than the Sennheiser hd 800, absurd right? but that's the beauty in headphones, there's a sound for each one of us. So while to you and possibly many many more people think it sounds bad, it really all depends on the eye of the beholder, and while, yes, it probably might not compete against many other planar's, do you know of any planar headphone's you can get brand new for only 150$. Phew* please forgive my rant, I got a little bit heated, you can practically see the steam emanating off of me lol. Again you'll have to forgive my previous comment's lack of knowledge as I really am not smart at this I just love the thought of building headphone's. But anyways good luck man, I hope you're successful in your endeavors  

p.s. that's awesome you can print anything you want onto the headphones, it adds a whole new level to customization.


----------



## BushidoArts

@Garuspik the wood back plates are made to be removed. They were designed to be both open and closed back, if you wanted to you could throw the backplates away and never see them again and you'd be perfectly fine. I don't know much about how driver sizes effect sound, however do you know any with low enough ohm impedance that they can be drived with nothing but a phone becuase these can. So even if you don't like how they sound they do have a use and to add to that they are only 150$ so don't you get what you pay for? If you can list a brand new set of planar headphones that are cheaper than that you've convinced me. Not saying they don't have problems, but they aren't just junk either they are at least worth a little something. I like my headphones and isn't that what it boils down to, preference?


----------



## youngarthur

Garuspik said:


> I'm strictly against wood cups in headpones. Why? Wood cup can't have a thin wall (cause it'll crack soon) and manufacture need to make walls at least 5-6mm wide so they leave less space for driver. And even when monoprice don't use wood in some models they make such tiny driver in a huge cup:
> 
> I think that's awful.


Come on young man, hurry up and make me some.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol (Apr 18, 2018)

BushidoArts said:


> @Garuspik but they aren't just junk either they are at least worth a little something. I like my headphones and isn't that what it boils down to, preference?



Sorry for the reality check, but they're garbage, no way around it.
Also, arguing with a guy that makes his own planar headphone from scratch about if other design is good or not is just delusional, he's right about the Monoprice headphones and also knows a ton more about the subject than you and me.
Just be rational and quiet.


----------



## leeperry (Apr 18, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> I'm strictly against wood cups in headphones. Why? Wood cup can't have a thin wall (cause it'll crack soon) and manufacture need to make walls at least 5-6mm wide so they leave less space for driver. And even when monoprice don't use wood in some models they make such tiny driver in a huge cup:
> 
> I think that's awful.


Long time ago, wualta in the mega ortho thread said that the larger the driver the more refined the bass but also the higher the distortion and I see that many TOTL phones such as all Focal's are 40mm instead of going crazy like SONY with their 70mm drivers. I'm under the impression that the 55mm yamie chose for their HP-1 is the ideal diameter when it comes to sounding natural to my brain and yet not being too oversized...but again Focal, Shure and many more beg to differ. Do you think that the larger the better? And without compromises at that? M1060 is 10cm, that's a lot. There's also the weight issue with neodymium orthos(as AKG prophesied in their K1K brochure), anything heavier than 350g better deliver to make me truly happy 

Also, the whole/only point of wooden cups is for closed phones to my ears so I won't have to endure plasticky vibrations/resonances singing along(Aluminium possibly being a better option) but apparently drivers meant to work within closed designs require far more R&D than open ones? Hifiman appear unable to engineer drivers meant to play nice within closed cups and they don't even bear grills as their drivers don't take any damping whatsoever and sound better fully open w/o anything at all at the back.


----------



## youngarthur

Garuspik said:


> And I consider that to be awfull. Closed and open headphones should differ much more then back plate on\off. And monoprice just copied some sort of fostex driver and put them into random enclosure. At least I think about it in such way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Problem, when you feel ready.


----------



## BushidoArts

@Garuspik I was really considering the 400i but someone I know someone who had them and had qc issues with his, which is kind of what drove me away from them. Plus, I like the sound signature on mine, it's more made for rock and electronic music than smoother stuff like orchestra and jazz, which is what I have my sennheiser hd 558's for anyways. And about the wood cups, the headphones themselves were tuned with them off, They are open backs. They lose sound quality with them on. The point in the cups is if your in a spot with a lot of people and want to listen to your music in silence and people can't hear what your listening to, you can do so at the price of losing sound quality. It's interesting to see though all the difference in opinions, just shows you how different and unique people are. It would be pointless to argue back and forth on an opinion, because by the time we get blue in the face we would've gotten no where and our views are still exactly the same, thus meaning that all that time was wasted. When we consider someone stubborn for not accepting our views, we're both stubborn because we can't accept their views either. In our minds the facts seem so clear and we wonder how they could be so clouded in judgement, yet they see the exact same thing as we do; they wonder how we could be so clouded in judgement after they offered so many facts in great detail on why their views are superior. In the end that's our flaw, the very thing that makes us unique is the very same thing that can drive others away from you. The only way to overcome this is finding level ground with others; taking a step back in order to view it from their perspective; gain a level of understanding on why they think what they think. It doesn't mean we have to agree because then we'd take away the uniqueness we all share, but If we all had the same this same mindset it would wipe away a layer of arrogance we all have and we could obtain a greater knowledge that benefits everyone. Sorry for that long rant, that's just my view on things


----------



## BushidoArts (Apr 18, 2018)

ToroFiestaSol said:


> Sorry for the reality check, but they're garbage, no way around it.
> Also, arguing with a guy that makes his own planar headphone from scratch about if other design is good or not is just delusional, he's right about the Monoprice headphones and also knows a ton more about the subject than you and me.
> Just be rational and quiet.


Sir if you would look at the bottom half of my previous comment that is my response lol


----------



## colonelkernel8

leeperry said:


> Also, the whole/only point of wooden cups is for closed phones to my ears so I won't have to endure plasticky vibrations/resonances singing along(Aluminium possibly being a better option) but apparently drivers meant to work within closed designs require far more R&D than open ones? Hifiman appear unable to engineer drivers meant to play nice within closed cups and they don't even bear grills as their drivers don't take any damping whatsoever and sound better fully open w/o anything at all at the back.



Aluminum would actually be much worse than either wood or plastic. Generally speaking, closed headphones are going to be packed with dampening material of some kind or else they are going to have some real problems acoustically.


----------



## Garuspik

There is plastic and PLASTIC. I use for cups polycaprolactam. Same plastic often uses to produce silentblocks in cars. It's elastic and durable in the same time.


----------



## leeperry

colonelkernel8 said:


> Aluminum would actually be much worse than either wood or plastic. Generally speaking, closed headphones are going to be packed with dampening material of some kind or else they are going to have some real problems acoustically.


Totally untrue, compare plastic Vs alu cups on HD25 and become a believer. Compare plastic Vs wood on CAL! and same story will apply, with no extra damping whatsoever. Bio-cellulose dynamic drivers were made famous by the holy cd3k & R10, they're small and light too.

I love the mids you get with orthos so very much but vintage ones either lack dynamics and/or bass and new ones are usually too heavy huh......lot of HE-500 lovers ended up selling it to due to weight issues for instance. I rest my case that anything >350g requires dedication.



Garuspik said:


> There is plastic and PLASTIC. I use for cups polycaprolactam. Same plastic often uses to produce silentblocks in cars. It's elastic and durable in the same time.


Good to know coz Beyer went ABS on their Premium cans and it still sings along.


----------



## Garuspik

leeperry said:


> Good to know coz Beyer went ABS on their Premium cans and it still sings along.



I understand them. ABS is good for injection molding, lightweight & cheap.

p.s. Sent this week headphones to Cskippy and Marcus from https://headfonics.com
I guess within 2-3 weeks they'll reach their destinations and you'll hear some impressions.


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> I understand them. ABS is good for injection molding, lightweight & cheap.
> 
> p.s. Sent this week headphones to Cskippy and Marcus from https://headfonics.com
> I guess within 2-3 weeks they'll reach their destinations and you'll hear some impressions.


Fantastic! Looking forward to it, we are almost at the final destination


----------



## Garuspik

xantiema said:


> Fantastic! Looking forward to it, we are almost at the final destination



Hm... I'm thinking about it as a starting point.


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Hm... I'm thinking about it as a starting point.


I don't disagree, the adventure definitely begins here, but the final destination for the current milestone is to be celebrated, cheers!


----------



## rikk009

leeperry said:


> Long time ago, wualta in the mega ortho thread said that the larger the driver the more refined the bass but also the higher the distortion.



Maybe that's why professional ortho drivers are pleated.


----------



## Garuspik

Today I've assembled another headphone for the journey to England in another colour of grill and with another wood texture:

 
Also today got an sms that my headphones crossed the border of the USA. Hope they survived that journey well and Cskippy soon receive a working sample 
So I'll describe how to adjust them:
1. You need to completely unscrew small titanium circles with R and L marks and get access to 3 screws.
 
2.  pull out those 3 screws and insert them in holes in headband in desired position.
Leather part can be easily detached and changed when worn out.
 
Also on these headphones you can adjust not only height of cups but also clamping force.
I'll show you how.
1. Unscrew top titanium circle
 
2. Gain access to screw
 

Now headphones can be disassembled into 2 parts (yeah, also not on purpose ). Same mechanics as on height adjustment - if you want higher clamping force then insert central screw in holes that are further from the edge. 
*Attention! Use same holes on both halves! *I mean if screw is inserted in the hole that is closest to  edge in the left half then same hole should be used in the right half. Both halves should rotate freely so don't tighten the screw too much!


----------



## Garuspik

Nostalgia  First version of headphones that made some sound.


----------



## Garuspik

Arranged today in my city a small listening session in comparison with "big guys". Very pleased with results.
Here is mobile photo as-is of my headphones and LCD-2. Still have some signs of DIY but Audeze is rather close to DIY also 
 

One of samples is already in USA and soon, I hope, we can read several opinions.


----------



## Oublie

Truly amazed by this thread what you have done is fantastic can you put me down for a pair! I'm glad you moved away from the the dual driver system I have a pair of Electrostatz headphones which use an esl tweeter mated to a dynamic driver the idea sound good but in truth they just don't work.


----------



## Garuspik (May 6, 2018)

Oublie said:


> Truly amazed by this thread what you have done is fantastic can you put me down for a pair! I'm glad you moved away from the the dual driver system I have a pair of Electrostatz headphones which use an esl tweeter mated to a dynamic driver the idea sound good but in truth they just don't work.



Thanks. Lets wait for review. What if this is fancy looking crap? 
I also glad to move away from dual drivers. When I've finally managed to produce pet+aluminium sandwich that is thin enough and reliable all other problems were insignificant.

p.s. Also, because of the rules of head-fi I can't sell anything on forum. I wrote to administration with an ask to start a thread in "Headphones (full-size)" category several days ago. Now waiting for the answer.


----------



## Moochibond (May 6, 2018)

Hi Garuspik,

The headphones look epic, congratulations I hope you are proud of your work!

Can't wait to read the lucky "HeadFi testers" comparisons of your headphones against others.

Regarding: "Also, because of the rules of head-fi I can't sell anything on forum." I'm surprised if this is so (I have not read the rules regarding this), especially considering when I read e.g. ZMF, Toxic Cable, Glen Audio Amplifier threads (to name but a few), it seem their threads certainly help  sales?


----------



## Garuspik (May 6, 2018)

Yes, I'm proud  If that wouldn't be so - i won't send samples across the world.
As far as I understand forum rules I need to become "member of the trade"  (mot) to advertise what I've created. Frankly speaking nothing to trade  but to tell about those headphones I need to become a mot.
Sure I want to sell this model in future. But before that I want several people across the world to review them.


----------



## Garuspik (May 6, 2018)

A short video that explains kinematics and adjustments of the band and pressure force (top knob). Also have shown principle of ear-pad rolling. All you need is to insert a small steel ring inside. Other job will do hidden magnets. Also you see the membrane, magnets, traces etc.


p.s. that sample will be sent tomorrow to Great Britain.


----------



## Oublie (May 6, 2018)

Couple of suggestions for possible improvements in your design.


1 magnet shape will affect the sound substantially curved magnets with a custom profile will enhance the highs here's a picture of what I mean



2 I know you mentioned it already but damping around the transducer and a modification to the headband will stop a lot of ringing in the earcups which will be transmitted through the headband. This will allow you to 'tighten' the sound allowing for a better impulse response.

These two design modifications should make a big difference to the overall fidelity.


----------



## Garuspik

1. Agree. But not in this price range.
2. Completely disagree. Cups are made from non-resonant material and my design have no space between cup and driver. 99,5% of space inside cup is taken by driver. You could be right if we speak about closed back design where driver really interacts with cup, but this is another case.


----------



## Oublie

Garuspik said:


> 1. Agree. But not in this price range.
> 2. Completely disagree. Cups are made from non-resonant material and my design have no space between cup and driver. 99,5% of space inside cup is taken by driver. You could be right if we speak about closed back design where driver really interacts with cup, but this is another case.



Fair point on 2 if your cans don't ring then that's great I suppose ive just had so many that ring on higher decibel transients that we never see in the normal specs especially metal cans with metal headbands.


----------



## Garuspik

It can't ring at all. Air flow from membrane don't interact with cups at all.


----------



## Oublie

Look forward to hearing them eventually


----------



## Garuspik

Oublie said:


> Look forward to hearing them eventually



Thanks for your interest, but infortunately I can't make (at least yet) so many samples to send headphones to everyone who is interested ;(
But from my point of view I must send them to several countries before asking money for them. This at least honest.


----------



## youngarthur

Reminder, please keep me in mind, when you are ready to sell units.


----------



## artemart

Garuspik, first I would like to thank you for your contribution to the DIY community. I have been following your progress ever since you have started your DIY thread on the Russian forum and I would like to say that you have done an excellent job creating this headphone. One you feel like you are ready to sell your headphone please let me know so I can place an order.


I am also interested in the mylar + aluminium that you are using. Can you please post a link to the item or a supplier name along with the part number?


----------



## Garuspik

Sure. http://plus.ua - manufacturer of mylar + aluminium that I use. Particular part number I don't know.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

100VoltTube said:


> See: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work#HWpdGbxPQLYMIcpR.97
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He has to use graphene for that as it strongest thing known to man and is extremely conductive...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

100VoltTube said:


> Ribbons are strips of foil. What you described works the same way, so I think it would qualify as a ribbon. Not sure about that, though, now that you mention it. A thin strip of foil would have some advantages in the mids and treble, but I'm not sure about bass. Thin foil would also be higher sensitivity (need less current) and higher impedance, not that that matters with a transconductance amplifier.
> 
> A transconductance stage in an amp would also be very helpful with driving grounded-grid or common gate stages where you need the preceding stage to have gain, which a cathode follower or a common drain stage don't do. But you probably knew that already.
> 
> ...


He can create sealed ribbon tweeter with a 50mm diaphragm on crossover


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> One driver ribbon design won't give you bass, two driver design will bring more problems then can solve.


Bro, you can design your chin film like oppo planar magnetic and get n52 custom magnet(Fibonacci structure D style magnets) to increase overall air to diaphragm contact, increase flux consistency and make diaphragm more sensitive.

I did make some planar magnetic loudspeakers and they sound amazing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 18, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Bro, why I should look at Oppo? I don't like them at all and don't consider their magnetic system to be superior over my creation.


Nahh, I didn't mean that....

Its just that I want to say that the circuitry can be more complex and cover the diaphragm more, so sensitivity can rise, if you want...

I did my tracing on both side of diaphragm which was a extremely thin buckypaper.


I like your creation, its amazing level of work you did...

And I have made some planar speakers in past and what I suggest you that you can circuit tracing on both side of film(I am not saying to copy oppo circuit design) just have the circuit tracing on both side


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> Sensitivity doesn't affected by amount of traces. I've achieved sensitivity about 97 db.


It does....well by 2dB to 4dB...but it helps in more control and ESL level distortion


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> One driver ribbon design won't give you bass, two driver design will bring more problems then can solve.


Well true.....

Phase, coherency, off tune and random overtones...

But if he wanna play ribbon then he has to remove all treble by a great resistor or do a dual driver setup and then lower some dB


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> No it doesn't. Sensitivity in planar headphones depends on 3 things:
> 
> 1. Current that flow across conductive traces.
> 2. Force of magnets
> ...


OK just wait...


You make a circuit trace on one side and other circuit trace on other side and then connect them in parallel.. Who would wanna destroy an efficient device by doubling resistance.

Well this is called two way magnetic planar and this increase sensitivity. But then it needs more tuning.

It is employed by clear voice, wisdom audio and some manufacturer.

Actually oppo also uses it but closed back make them a little weird.


I did mentioned the magnetic strength.

Magnet effect the whole sensitivity.

But i think distance of magnet effects tuning more than the dB(yes it do effect dB, and is extremely noticeable).


Yes current amplification do effect.

Bro I am making planar magnetic speaker for a long time...

And what you say is right.

I think I am not able to tell you what I want to say. I never said that you copy oppo, just some positive points from all manufacturer, your own knowledge....use them as ingredients and make the perfect headphone out there

1. Make dual tracing and get them on parallel
2. Get n52 magnets and try getting a custom magnet shape with more uniform magnetic spread.
3.Instead of D magnet, get yourself to make custom waveguide and what angle effect the audio the most.
4.you can stack magnet of opposite polarity over your magnet to push the magnetic flux more inside, turning them even stronger.(big companies achieve Tesla forces like that. For ex. Audeze and Beyerdynamic Tesla driver.)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> I don't want to argue with you. You can think whatever you want but please don't give me advices - start a new topic about your own planar speakers, "bro".


Sorry......


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Garuspik said:


> I don't want to argue with you. You can think whatever you want but please don't give me advices - start a new topic about your own planar speakers, "bro".


Sir I have last question....and please don't get annoyed.

Will angle driver help me in planar magnet condition like those in normal headphones.

I am a speaker guy, and trying the way you did your headphone...just asking

I am sorry, for all the old things I did


----------



## PLRambo

Hey, ive been looking around and doing some research about headphones in general and decided to start off with a planar setup since i can't find any diaphragm for the basic headphone setup. I have managed to find the ''material' that could be used as the diaphragm, which is some DuPont Pyralux, but I was wondering, where / how did you customize it for your specific needs ?

Any special company that you used?


Thanks.


----------



## PLRambo

Like, do you know a where that sells the flexible diaphragm as is ? or do you go through a company and tell them exactly what u need and how you want it done ?

So far i have only found places that sell the material / make flexible pcbs and i need to send them a gerber file to place an order.


----------



## cskippy

He makes his own.  I believe he has posted how he does it in this thread.


----------



## PLRambo

Then i must have missed it somewhere, i will look through the past 22 pages then haha


----------



## leeperry

cskippy said:


> He makes his own.  I believe he has posted how he does it in this thread.



Right, how's the phone then lucky you huh?


----------



## PLRambo (May 28, 2018)

Doing some research, ive actually stumbled upon the same material that you have used, just realized that. However, the thing im wondering was, at what location did you actually get it manufactured ? or printed/milled the copper traces on it ? that is what im confused about.


Edit 1 : nvm...you had it manufactured at a local pyralux factory , however i presume u had to send a file or something to get it made ?

Edit 2: Do you think wireless planar headphones can achieve a decent volume ? I have some decent electric background but im not so sure how much planar headphones need , like 1 Watt i presume ?


----------



## PLRambo

Garuspik said:


> cutted self-adhesive film on plotter and made with this mas for etching.All other operations were performed in my workshop,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Really ? only 200mw on mid level ? That opens doors for interesting stuff then ! 600mah might not be the ideal pick but thats not hard to change. But with the addition of all the wireless components + amp (ideally not ****ty) amp + charging module , im concerned about the additional weight that it might had.

All i really need to start is to actually get the diaphragm...sigh


----------



## youngarthur

Garuspik said:


> As promised to several people I'm making another sample for review (and yeah still waiting for reviews from all over the world where I've sent headphones long ago ;( )
> Today I've received several parts from CNC router and motorized camera dolly. Let's try it.



I thought people would have had some impressions by now, as I seems quite a while sInce you sent out review samples.You should feel happy, with what you have achieved, and I am looking forward to purchasing from you.


----------



## chinsettawong

That's a very nice 3D model.  Thanks for sharing.


----------



## chinsettawong

Garuspik said:


> We all share the same hobby here. So no reasons to have secrets. Anyway, headphones are not a rocket engine to be aware from spies  If I see that manufacture is hidden something, then I think that he is ashamed of something.
> 
> Here is second model: second part of magnetic system
> So basically each cup has 5 parts:
> ...



The first time is always the most difficult.  Once you know what you're doing, everything becomes easier.  

If you don't mind, I'll use your model for a 3d printing on my 3d printer.


----------



## chinsettawong

Yes, I know that.  I just wanna try printing your housing.  I have no plan to make the headphones at the moment.


----------



## MuZo2

Garuspik said:


> As promised to several people I'm making another sample for review (and yeah still waiting for reviews from all over the world where I've sent headphones long ago ;( )
> Today I've received several parts from CNC router and motorized camera dolly. Let's try it.



Before you run into trouble with Admins you should register yourself as member of trade on head-fi.


----------



## youngarthur

When you start your own thread, send a link, as I am not good at this sort of thing, and looking forward to trying/buying these.


----------



## RenZixx

Well am new around here, I do not have much experience with planars (I have heard the LCD-X,HE560,M1060,etc). I have built my own dynamic headphones which I used the drivers from the MDR 7056 from aliexpress and they sounded pretty amazing (My friend had an amazing angled design). Well can anyone dumb is down for me please I really want to build a planar headphone.


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> If you want to build planars then build them  Information available in this thread is enough to do that.


Well thanks, BTW there are planar headphones shells (body) on aliexpress the good is that the cups are wood. Seems interesting anyways thanks for this thread man, really love your work


----------



## youngarthur

I posted on Verum Audio, very happy to be one of the first to buy. I also suggested that any future upgrades, i would pay all expenses to have that done,OR send me the parts, all expenses paid, for me to fit. One thing I cannot understand, is why people have taken so long to review them for you.


----------



## manishex

very excited to hear the reviews. Frequency response is very important to me so things like peaks can be damped physically.


----------



## manishex

Wow, looks like what I'd imagine an LCD-5 to look like


----------



## RenZixx

Well another quick question, every planar i have seen do not have front vents on the baffles. But in mostly all dynamic headphones they got baffles vents (like the dt 770 for example).


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 2, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Sorry, I don't understand your question. Most of planar headphones (and mine also) are open. DT770 are closed. What is "front vents on the baffles"? Can you mark it on picture.


https://imgur.com/HvHksaq
keep in mind I was modding the hd 25 when i took this so you wont see the white foam (or whatever you call it).

EDIT: And also i am planning to make a fully modded version of the t50rp with a custom cups.


----------



## youngarthur

Anyone else done a review for you, after you sent them to review, and if not, have you been in touch with them?.


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> My driver occupies ~80% of internal size of the cup, so even if I wanted (but I don't want) I have no space to install something outside the driver.
> Look, we need to solve 1 primary problem in planar headphones: pressure outside membrane = pressure inside membrane. And we have several tools for that:
> 
> 1) Damping
> ...


Soooo baffle vents won't do much? Also will a slightly cupped shaped back create some hollowish sound? Which material is the best for damping.


----------



## Garuspik

RenZixx said:


> Which material is the best for damping.



Blondes or brunettes? 
Both questions don't have specific answer.


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Blondes or brunettes?
> Both questions don't have specific answer.


Holy damn that was my life question! Well point made, like which one is the best for like sub-bass and detail.


----------



## youngarthur

Fantastic, I am looking forward to trying these.


----------



## GREQ

Garuspik said:


> Assembling right now headphones with one-sided magnet system. If main project has the name Verum One let's call this Verum 0,5
> 
> 
> What the difference in comparison to main project:
> ...


Any chance of a V0.5.1 with double sided magnets but keeping the rest utilitarian like the 0.5?


----------



## youngarthur

Given a choice, I would like velour ear pads, but have no problem using leather.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

I have been watching this thread darn near since the start, and this thread along with the DIY electrostatic headphone thread is pretty much the only reason I even look at the head-fi forum anymore. 

I am looking at doing my own pair of headphones, and I have a few questions for you. 

1: I am noticing that some of your headphones don't really extend down to 20hz, but these graphs seem to be from some very early designs. Have you been able to achieve full range response yet? 

2: You have made these headphones to come in at a very affordable price level and be pretty darn sensitive. Would you do anything different to the design if you weren't under these constraints? In other words, what does the ultimate Garuspik driver look like? 

3: I see that you had made the diaphragm using some type of fancy kapton tape. While you did explain the material, you did not explain how you etched/cut/ect the traces for the material. Was it a simple photo etch like with regular PCB material?


----------



## GREQ

Garuspik said:


> You don't like leather earpads and customization with a various textures?



Not at all 
I would hope to get the best sound at the cheapest price. (Double sided magnets and un-coated/unfinished material).
Then roll my own pads and apply my own custom finish.


----------



## GREQ (Jul 6, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Applying custom finish is equal to disassembling headphones. A bit tricky process. Even more complex in comparison with assembling



Forgive me, but it's clear that you don't know that disassemling and photographing headphone drivers is something of a specialty of mine on this forum. 
(I also dabble with many vintage planars and mods in general, so I'm no stranger to a screwdriver)


----------



## mandrake50

Forgive me for asking, but what percentage of the general headphone buying public has those skills? From reading just on Head Fi, I would judge that to be a very low number. Even for those brave enough to try, the forums are full of stories of people damaging headphones beyond their ability to repair them. Many of these stories are about Planar headphones in particular. I guess disassembling and finishing  might be offered as an option. Were it me though, there would be no warranty offered for such an option.


----------



## manishex

I notice with my velour pads that when they get hot, they get itchy so I personally prefer leather.


----------



## OldDude04

That is a damn good looking set of headphones. Retro and modern simultaneously.


----------



## youngarthur

Really, really nice.What are your thoughts, on making your ultimate headphone, probably in limited numbers. I wonder how many people show interest, but don't actually buy these?. Interesting times.


----------



## OldDude04

youngarthur said:


> I wonder how many people show interest, but don't actually buy these?. Interesting times.



If I remember correctly, he intends to sell his headphones for around $300. I simply can't imagine him having any issues selling as many as he wants.


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Headphones with one sided magnet structure, without aqua print and leather extras should cost significantly cheaper. During a month I plan to start Kickstarter campaign and we'll see how many people are interested in this project.


My interest has only grown since following this from the start. I think you did a great job detailing and validating your work throughout the entire process


----------



## youngarthur

When you do kickstarter campaign, please put up a link, as I am not very good at these sort of things.


----------



## manishex

I'm interested in how "big" the boys these are playing with and the possibility to mod afterwards such as 3D printing add-ons for some customisation of frequency response?


----------



## chinsettawong

How is the efficiency of single sided magnets as compared to double sided?

Your headphones look really, really nice.  You’ll have my support on Kickstarter for sure.


----------



## chinsettawong

I’m where the Wild Boars Academy (the 13 lost boys in the cave) is.  I don’t think you sent any headphones to Thailand or did you?


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Ah! Why anyone would associate Thailand with that happily solved problem?  If you'd say smth like: country of smiles or at least country of unbelievable white ocean shore I'd totally agree with you
> One sample in China and one on Philippines ;(


Any samples in Denmark mayhaps? I will be joining the kickstarter regardless!


----------



## chinsettawong

Garuspik said:


> Ah! Why anyone would associate Thailand with that happily solved problem?  If you'd say smth like: country of smiles or at least country of unbelievable white ocean shore I'd totally agree with you
> One sample in China and one on Philippines ;(



Well, it's in the news now, and I didn't know that you knew Thailand that well.


----------



## chinsettawong

Garuspik said:


> Usa
> Ukraine
> Russia
> China
> ...



Why do you  ;(  when mentioning those countries?


----------



## xantiema

chinsettawong said:


> Why do you  ;(  when mentioning those countries?


He was responding to me, unfortunately no Denmark in that list... touché


----------



## I g o r

Where is the one in China located? I’m in China right now, maybe...


----------



## RenZixx

Quick question, which is the best software for 3D printing as I have been using tinkerCAD but I fine that limiting for the angled design that I have.


----------



## Torac

RenZixx said:


> Quick question, which is the best software for 3D printing as I have been using tinkerCAD but I fine that limiting for the angled design that I have.



I used to use that before I realised fusion 360 existed, it's made by the same people and has much more sophisticated tools. You'll get a lot more out of it.


----------



## RenZixx

EssentialEDM said:


> I used to use that before I realised fusion 360 existed, it's made by the same people and has much more sophisticated tools. You'll get a lot more out of it.


I keep trying to download it but I just never find the download link, or maybe am just dumb


----------



## Torac

RenZixx said:


> I keep trying to download it but I just never find the download link, or maybe am just dumb



Google ''Fusion 360" go on the first link (Autodesk). It should tell you to make an account but just sign in to the one you made when using tinkercad, reload the page and download should be on the third step box.


----------



## RenZixx

EssentialEDM said:


> Google ''Fusion 360" go on the first link (Autodesk). It should tell you to make an account but just sign in to the one you made when using tinkercad, reload the page and download should be on the third step box.


Oh so we just use the same account. Thanks M8


----------



## manishex

UK here @_@


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 13, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Yantai.


When you say spacers do you mean like the space between the membrane and the magnets? Where did you get your N52 magnets from? Sorry for being a pain in the butt. This was as close as I could get to find some N52 magnets https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pc...5e2e930&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Yep, that's what I mean by spacers.Magnets are custom ordered, you won't find such things on Ali or eBay.


Any idea where I can get these magnets in Asia?


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Yep, that's what I mean by spacers.Magnets are custom ordered, you won't find such things on Ali or eBay.


Do you just solder the wires onto the copper wires? Which type of kapton did you use exactly, did you use the basic ones?


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> I don't use kapton anymore. It's custom made for my need mylar + aluminium.
> In China there is many factories where you can order magnets. Usually you need to order at least 1000 pcs.


Any company that makes that combination (mylar + aluminium)? Do you solder the wires onto the coppers wires?


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 14, 2018)

So i was just messing around with TinkerCAD tryna make a design for a custom Planar (Yes thanks alot for opening this thread it really inspired me) and i came across this......





What about bar magnets like that? Or should I shrink the magnets, also the total size of the membrane is 110mm.

Or maybe something like this




Also wont the semicircular shape of the magnets work as a wave guide or a fazzor?


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 16, 2018)

Well i redesigned it because i thought that those magnets in the first one were tooo crazy big and the design was complete ball sacks and. Also I am aiming for a closed back design. The orange shape is the membrane BTW.












This isnt final since i will be adding bass ports for some air and bass. Also the vertical and parrallel dual magnets would weigh a literal kilo. The magnets are a semicircle for a fazzor or waveguide effect


----------



## prouting

I followed you with great interest, great work and diffusion, the result seems really excellent. And I join my interest to your support when you put it on sale.

I would like to know if the shape of the diaphragm is not completely circular or you have avoided some form of suppressing resonances of mylar.
I also see in your photos some ripples in the diaphragm, is it intentional? I read you many pages back the idea of using a die.

Regards,

Pedro


----------



## RenZixx

prouting said:


> I followed you with great interest, great work and diffusion, the result seems really excellent. And I join my interest to your support when you put it on sale.
> 
> I would like to know if the shape of the diaphragm is not completely circular or you have avoided some form of suppressing resonances of mylar.
> I also see in your photos some ripples in the diaphragm, is it intentional? I read you many pages back the idea of using a die.
> ...


By ripples you mean the holes in the overall diaphragm?


----------



## RenZixx

xantiema said:


> Which video was that? Would like to see


The Audio Technica M60X video. The headphones are on the left.


----------



## xantiema

RenZixx said:


> The Audio Technica M60X video. The headphones are on the left.


Cheers


----------



## RenZixx

Well its a good and a bad thing you went away from double sided magnets. Well yes weight has been dropped but wont the actual sound be affected in a bad way? Well I do have a slight idea that you can take into consideration, you can give them an option of a double sided or single sided. Note this is just and idea. (dont kill me lol) C:


----------



## xantiema

RenZixx said:


> Well its a good and a bad thing you went away from double sided magnets. Well yes weight has been dropped but wont the actual sound be affected in a bad way? Well I do have a slight idea that you can take into consideration, you can give them an option of a double sided or single sided. Note this is just and idea. (dont kill me lol) C:


He is making an alternative model, not necessarily stripping the side of the initial model as far as I have understood. Everything should be as intended, with the minor changes based upon reviews and testing.


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Oops...  There won't be a surprise review I guess


Well where do you solder the wires onto? BTW thats acrilic on the mylar diaphragm right? Tell me senpai I am lost which page did you show how to etch the aluminium onto the mylar.


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 23, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Here is detailed explanation:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy...hones-in-details.842282/page-17#post-14037714
> 
> It is polycarbonate. Almost same as acrylic but durable. I don't want it to crack after falling on the floor from the table.
> ...


Just a small question, is that transparent film the actual mylar or some other material? Also please please provide a picture of the driver without the back because I really don't understand the solder part (because am a dumbass). Also the tracing design is just like a normal resistor?


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Film is mylar. Search the topic for other pics. It's plenty of them in this thread.


Last question, the tracing design is like a normal resistor design?


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Any magnetic planar headphone is a pure resistive load and acts as a resistor.


So basically its a resistor. Right?


----------



## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Left.


So wrong then?


----------



## RenZixx (Jul 24, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> That's a DIY thread where I share my experience with other diyers. Dude, I don't feel like you're going to build something. You was even too lazy to search one thread for needed info. I'll answer your questions only when I see something built by you concerning headphones.


Well I have designed 3 models (2 are closed back). I may or may not build them but I have already ordered things for making one. Well also sorry for the spam of questions lol since I am not toooo experienced with Planars. Thanks for the thread BTW and I like the name that your going for "VERUM".


----------



## lambdastorm (Jul 24, 2018)

Greetings Garuspik. I started followed this thread about 4 months ago and quite enjoyed the progress you've made so far. Got a few questions about Verum:

1. If this project eventually turns into a product then is there any room for customization? Pretty concerned about a headphone's efficiency rating since quite some folks here drive their HE6s straight from their speaker amp---me included. Anything that bears an efficiency rating above 90dB/mW hisses badly. Is it possible that you make a far-less-efficient variant to the 'regular' Verum for us speaker amp users?

2. For someone who doesn't know a bean about planar drivers but have disassembled quite a few I'm gonna pop a silly question: Have you disassembled an ABYSS and looked into the drivers yet? I don't dare crack mine open, but the driver looks different from Audezes and Hifimans in that they don't look completely flat, and have a sort of crease/fold to it that makes it resembles AMT drivers more than that of a 'typical' planar driver. That said I've recently come across a shop on Ali that sells planar drivers and here's their top-of-the-line driver which looks extremely similar to ABYSS drivers. Here's a few pics:






 

 

 

 

The seller claims that these crease/folds require precision etching and the design is superior to those 'flat' ones found in HE560 and the like. What do you think about these drivers design-wise? Is it just a different approach or is it really more costly and thus superior?


----------



## Torac

lambdastorm said:


> Greetings Garuspik. I started followed this thread about 4 months ago and quite enjoyed the progress you've made so far. Got a few questions about Verum:
> 
> 1. If this project eventually turns into a product then is there any room for customization? Pretty concerned about a headphone's efficiency rating since quite some folks here drive their HE6s straight from their speaker amp---me included. Anything that bears an efficiency rating above 90dB/mW hisses badly. Is it possible that you make a far-less-efficient variant to the 'regular' Verum for us speaker amp users?
> 
> ...



Is this alibaba or AliExpress and which shop is this? Thanks.


----------



## lambdastorm (Jul 24, 2018)

EssentialEDM said:


> Is this alibaba or AliExpress and which shop is this? Thanks.


Linky: https://1476.taobao.com/shop/view_shop.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.20.7f136c44Qa0Rzu&user_number_id=126177188

You can choose from a wide range of drivers including the M1060 one. Beside planar drivers he sells DIY kits as well.


----------



## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> Yes, Verum is much more efficient. And... I listen to it from my speaker amp  If your amp is noisy then just add 20-30 ohm resistor and listen in such way. Any product can be customized. Some guys modify Ferrari
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow man, thank you so much for the lengthy reply!

In fact, with regard to your drivers, I reached out to that seller some time ago and he's surprisingly open about his design, so I sent him a few pics of your Verum drivers and he commented that the serpertine trace on your drivers are prone to disintegrate from the plastic film the trace's etched on. I posted some pics of his drivers here so I can hear from both sides. Seeing that you've performed some serious stress test on verum drivers I suppose they won't fall off easily like that seller claimed

Also, thanks for marking the working part of the driver, but those are his crappy gen 1 designs. The pics I posted above are his supposedly better gen 2 drivers. Speaking of which, where did you even find that pic in his lab? It's not even among the ones I posted...


----------



## Torac

lambdastorm said:


> Wow man, thank you so much for the lengthy reply!
> 
> In fact, with regard to your drivers, I reached out to that seller some time ago and he's surprisingly open about his design, so I sent him a few pics of your Verum drivers and he commented that the serpertine trace on your drivers are prone to disintegrate from the plastic film the trace's etched on. I posted some pics of his drivers here so I can hear from both sides. Seeing that you've performed some serious stress test on verum drivers I suppose they won't fall off easily like that seller claimed
> 
> Also, thanks for marking the working part of the driver, but those are his crappy gen 1 designs. The pics I posted above are his supposedly better gen 2 drivers. Speaking of which, where did you even find that pic in his lab? It's not even among the ones I posted...



You can find the lab pictures on his 97mm driver listing.


----------



## lambdastorm (Jul 24, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> And another chinese lie. He don't have 97mm driver. Verum has 82mm driver cause 82 mm is a diameter of MOVING part and ~85% of it's surface is covered with traces. It's like measuring usual speaker drivers with a frame


Considering that Monoprice market the M1060 as 106mm-driver planar, most planar manufacturer's claim about size (we're talking about effective moving area here) is just misleading. Even EL8 has 102mm drivers!


----------



## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> One of Verum's played in a shoe box on my balcony for 24\7 for a month on high volume level from some ****ty class D amp i'm using specially to perform stress-tests.
> I took pics from description of his lots.
> 
> Another pic:
> ...


Nice to see more exposing area from your design. Just asking, do planars have xmax and assuming that they do, what's the xmax on verum?


----------



## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> It's a marketing trick. It's a diameter of the whole cup. Internal diameter of Verum cup is 107 mm and it's designed for 105mm earpads.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good to know it has big effective driver area. I vaguely recall that HE6 has an effective driver area of 86mm*86mm and LCD2's drivers, despite looking bigger, doesn't have as much usable area. 

Another thing tho, these drivers look exposed. Would you add a dustproof film or something like that to the production version?


----------



## lambdastorm (Jul 24, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> I like He-6 very much, really great headphones. But only ~60% of open area is covered with traces.





Love my pair as well. Won't trade them for anything else. That said tho it really makes you wonder why planar manufacturers put so much emphasis on driver thickness these days. Audeze claims to have near-weightless diaphragms while Hifiman marks their counterpart as 'supernano'. The golden driver HE6 uses is more than 10 times as thick yet still remains as one of the most transparent sounding headphone ever.....Not that thinner is worse, just that thinner drivers don't necessarily correspond to better sound. Same as driver size. As you already mentioned the effective moving area on planars is nowhere near as impressive as their 'size' might suggest 


Hearing about dust cap kinda put my mind at ease, lol. I'd back your planar once its on indiegogo/gofundme or whatever crowdfunding site it is.


----------



## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> Supernano thickness adds micro-details. But as always, benefits in one, losses in another. Personally I prefer He-6 over He-1000 (but love them both).


Same. I even prefer them to susvara. Susvara owners are going to beat the living hell outta me if I ever post this to that thread lol.


----------



## FastAndClean

What is the size of the HE500 driver, 80mm?


----------



## lambdastorm

FastAndClean said:


> What is the size of the HE500 driver, 80mm?


Should be as big as the HE6. Apart from the gold-plating there's no difference between 500 & 6.


----------



## FastAndClean

HE6 is 86mm right?


----------



## artemart

Hey, in the post https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy...hones-in-details.842282/page-17#post-14037714.
Did you have any issues were ferric chloride would remove aluminium under mask traces?


----------



## lambdastorm

Hawt drivers. How's channel matching tho? 1dB tolerance? 0.5dB?


----------



## leeperry

Hawt = Hot

Enough with the teasing lol, wantz §§§


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. Submitted project to Kickstarter today. At the end of the week they should reply whether they accept it or not.




Give us fair warning, I want to be early backer


----------



## leeperry (Jul 30, 2018)

The lighter the better so please also add the single-sided magnet version, I don't care if the much heavier version sounds better. IMHO there is a compromise to be agreed upon between weight and sound quality, I'm sure brick-heavy phones such as Abyss and so on must amazeballs but anything >350g is a no-go for me.

TBH I wish you also made a supra 200g'ish version: make an easy-to-drive comfy Sine and you'll have even more buyers.

Everyone makes circum orthos these days, supra's are basically Sine only?


----------



## leeperry (Jul 30, 2018)

Sure but these ppl are prolly used to Audeze and HE500 level comfort. I would never consider any of those myself due to their excessive weight.

OK fine, I'll sit on the side and wait for lighter phones then. Make it supra too please, only Audeze has a supra ortho to offer AFAIK so market is far less crowded than circums.


----------



## artemart

Garuspik said:


> My English is far from perfect - what is "hawt" ?
> 
> Channel matching:
> 
> ...



If you do not mind sharing how you get less then 0.5 db across two diaphragms I would really like to know. 

Also it seems to me that some of the manufactures are making a lot of single diaphragm and then matching them to each other. Is there a benefit to one method vs other?


----------



## lambdastorm (Jul 31, 2018)

artemart said:


> If you do not mind sharing how you get less then 0.5 db across two diaphragms I would really like to know.
> 
> Also it seems to me that some of the manufactures are making a lot of single diaphragm and then matching them to each other. Is there a benefit to one method vs other?


I was about to ask the same. From what I know most manufacturers just match two drivers with similar FR. The mirroring technique you mentioned sure sounds interesting.



leeperry said:


> The lighter the better so please also add the single-sided magnet version, I don't care if the much heavier version sounds better. IMHO there is a compromise to be agreed upon between weight and sound quality, I'm sure brick-heavy phones such as Abyss and so on must amazeballs but anything >350g is a no-go for me.
> 
> TBH I wish you also made a supra 200g'ish version: make an easy-to-drive comfy Sine and you'll have even more buyers.
> 
> Everyone makes circum orthos these days, supra's are basically Sine only?


Abyss is acutally single-sided yet it still beats any double-sided planars on the market. Most of its weight comes from the aluminum headband and the magnets, which is carved from an entire magnet rather than several magnetic bars.


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> I can't use them more then 30 minutes also, but not because of weight. Discomfort is caused by tight clamp & *uneven weight distribution*.



This is the case with my LCD-X, so I wholeheartedly agree with the statement. It would be no issue if people would sit 100% upright like a pole for a perfect distribution, but seldom people do this i.e. feet tucked under their rump, leaning to a side or perhaps from spinal misalignment - which leads  to the weight distribution being everything, but subtle and thus very tiring post 20-minutes. 

I wonder how Verum does in this aspect. From the looks, they do seem more comfortable - but I doubt any headphone of this size and weight will ever fix this general issue, but a perfect surface tension would alleviate a lot of the issues Audeze phones have (stiff and hefty, makes them move/misalign very fast on your head and thus the weight seems dispersed unevenly). One would expect the clamping force would somewhat distribute more weight by way of large earcups...


----------



## leeperry (Jul 31, 2018)

Sure but nothing beats a 200'ish grams phone comfort-wise so please keep the idea in mind. Audeze's been trolling you with their 80x70mm driver size statement on Sine anyway, you shall respond comrade 

Sine is an ear-crusher and FWIR due to vacuum its diaphragms make plasticky noises whenever you move huh. It also has genuine leather glued onto its cups that's both unnecessary/fragile and kills market shares with vegans, besides genuine leather comes with Chromium poisoning and I don't want Chromium anywhere near my head nor endorse its use: https://gizmodo.com/how-leather-is-slowly-killing-the-people-and-places-tha-1572678618

Long story short, the 200'ish grams supra ortho market is all yours basically. Make it closed and you have a market killer that will appeal to both home users and people on the go.

Please make it happen down the road


----------



## xantiema (Jul 31, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> You know, I don't want to say smth like "Verum is like a feather on your head"  Only you should judge whether it is comfortable or not. Unfortunately can't give you that opportunity. At least right now.
> 
> And about the look - I've never talked about the sound of my creation, but I've shown some fancy pics. What if these pics are heavily photoshoped ? And all that "expectations vs reality" stuff?
> Today I've received a photo for Headfonics.com before upcoming
> ...



I have begun the (slow) process of making a headphone stand for the Verum headphone, the Codia gold plated will not match the headphone I believe, so the solution must be DIY in brass Gold matches the LCD-X surprisingly well though (black on gold )
Details: 5 x Mahony pieces from the same plank approx. 25mmx150mmx270mm and 4 x Brass plates 2mm thickness (about same specifications). They should provide proper weight to the stand and match very well in colour.

Sorry for the bad phone images =p


----------



## xantiema

leeperry said:


> Sure but nothing beats a 200'ish grams phone comfort-wise so please keep the idea in mind. Audeze's been trolling you with their 80x70mm driver size statement on Sine anyway, you shall respond comrade
> 
> Sine is an ear-crusher and FWIR due to vacuum its diaphragms make plasticky noises whenever you move huh. It also has genuine leather glued onto its cups that's both unnecessary/fragile and kills market shares with vegans, besides genuine leather comes with Chromium poisoning and I don't want Chromium anywhere near my head nor endorse its use: https://gizmodo.com/how-leather-is-slowly-killing-the-people-and-places-tha-1572678618
> 
> ...


Does every genuine leather come with chromium?


----------



## Garuspik

Xantiema, Coda stand looks great. I bet it's expensive. 
What to do you want to make from that mahogany notches?


----------



## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Xantiema, Coda stand looks great. I bet it's expensive.
> What to do you want to make from that mahogany notches?


It was expensive retail, but I have worn it quite a bit, so probably not worth anything near it's retail limited time run price of +- 600USD (+import tax to europe).

I was intending on making headphone stand with a unique design, but haven't come up with one yet. Feel free to have some input on this aspect of design that'd suit Verum headphones 

The 4 brass layers will be visible in the sides only (top,bottom and sides). So it would mostly be visible when putting on/taking off the headphones or if  you display the stand toward the side, as shown in one of your Verum pictures above. 

So basically glue together with strong epoxy and proceed to cut after design and then high polish it - inserting brass knobs (top and bottom) on backside for cable management. The wood is from a long plank of the tree, and provides some funky wood grains as seen from some magnetic knife racks (all from the same plank) I made earlier (not yet properly oiled/lacquered/polished).


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## leeperry (Jul 31, 2018)

xantiema said:


> Does every genuine leather come with chromium?


Pretty much, if it doesn't it cost a whole lot more to make and would be heavily advertised as "chromium-free". And genuine leather doesn't necessarily come from cow, it'll come from anything they can get for the cheapest, you get my drift when it's made in China. I'm no vegan BTW, I just don't see any good reason to buy animal skin for my hobbies......and it doesn't help with anything but looks on Sine, since when is it hip to have black genuine leather from undisclosed species glued onto plastic headphone cups I wonder.....maybe they're hoping to hook up an OEM deal with Chanel :triple_facepalm:


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## aomas (Aug 1, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> You know, I don't want to say smth like "Verum is like a feather on your head"  Only you should judge whether it is comfortable or not. Unfortunately can't give you that opportunity. At least right now.
> 
> And about the look - I've never talked about the sound of my creation, but I've shown some fancy pics. What if these pics are heavily photoshoped ? And all that "expectations vs reality" stuff?
> Today I've received a photo for Headfonics.com before upcoming
> ...



Not trying to be disrespect to any, but while i enjoy the overall look of the headphones the color scheme is a bit too much of "Russian" which is kinda not the most stylist look for me personally. Otherwise really interested to get hands on these babies once you start selling these, and all the info gathered it is looking very good.
My only advice is go with silver/chrome instead of gold and that would probably lessen the "Russian" look of the phones or use different color on the "wood imitation".

Also.. how does these sound closed? or have you tested that?

_As an example Telefunken Aqusta has the same color scheme/look/style or whatever you wanna call it (though they are honestly way uglier and in this case not even fair comparison to your design)_


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## aomas (Aug 1, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Aomas, I've shown here different color schemes. For example those color combinations:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No no no, those look nice. I seem to have missed the other variations. I gotta say that black grill variation has a high-end look on it (meaning it has a touch of personality but doesn't go full pimp daddy ), do like the silver one too. Edit. gold with that black carbon doesn't look bad either, tho not huge fan of the carbon fiber look.


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Aomas, I've shown here different color schemes. For example those color combinations:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is lovely with options, but I personally still prefer the original design.

When you say custom, do you mean something like Vibrant colors in titanium over brass etc.? Does this include custom cables? Also with these color options, it made me wonder if you had different types of ear-pads also (e.g. brown vegan pads). The original pads were Sheepskin and memory foam?

I was once again reading the Verum reviews to recall the revision changes, the graphs from cSkippy (alpha) and Hands (later revision) made me think about; What ear-pads did  you end up with in the finalized design? More like the angled ones of Focal Clear?

Cheers!


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## lambdastorm (Aug 1, 2018)

Same here, I prefer the original design by a wide margin. It just looks right. The black one doen't look too bad tho.

What concerns me the most is that the first batch will all be using double-sided magnets, and efficiency will be as high as 96db/mw. Not that I have anything against that but you did say single-sided drivers help save cost as well as lower the efficiency. I know demand for 75db/mw headphones is probably very low but still, I hope some day some planar designer would come up with a design so inefficient we can plug it straight into a speaker amp and not have to adjust volume. That would be the perfect way for speaker guys to get into the headphone game.


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> I'll show in video what earpads I've chose by now. Anyway - i've done everything for easy pad rolling, Any standard 105mm earpad will do.



Lovely


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## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> Verum 1 is a double-sided planar headphones. I can't propose a model that nobody heard except me and couple of friends in Ukraine. This is just unfair from my point of view.



I understand. Do you think it sounds better or worse? Or just different?


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## EnDva

I must say that you are an inspiration to me! Read trough all 34 pages in a single sitting! Your answers are informative and honest. I do hope you make it up to audeze/hifiman level one day!
Keep up the good work!


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## lambdastorm

Garuspik said:


> More different then worse. Sinlge sided design has more flat but at the same time more detailed and transparent sound.Also single sided model has much less dynamics.
> Absence of magnets between driver and ear has huge impact on transparency and micro details.


Glad to hear. Personally I won't trade dynamics for transparency and details, but to each his own I guess.


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## EnDva (Aug 2, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> I hope you mean volume of sales, not sound


 
Exactly that! And I hope you exceed their build quality by a mile. But I think you already did that.


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## aomas

Garuspik said:


> Several people asked me how it looks on the head. I've made several photos with a friend in studio (DIY photos for DIY project!)



That actually doesn't look bad, keep up the good work.. We are waiting Buy Now link!


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> A few pics for those who is interested whether I can produce quality traces with such approach.
> 
> 
> Another well-known USA manufacturer for example


Nice! BTW I noticed that you have pretty low resistance, have you tried a higher resistance?


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Resistance doesn't affect sound, but it affect width of traces. And wide traces = reliability. 10 ohm (without cable) is't a problem for any solid-state or hybrid amp (even iphone drives them decently) . May cause some problems only to tube otl amps.


Well that's good news, I was worried that the resistance would affect the sound. Thanks!


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Resistance doesn't affect sound, but it affect width of traces. And wide traces = reliability. 10 ohm (without cable) is't a problem for any solid-state or hybrid amp (even iphone drives them decently) . May cause some problems only to tube otl amps.


Also I have been thinking about a dual magnet system, with this system you double the magnetic force. Am going to upload pictures later as an example.


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## xantiema (Aug 10, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> A minute of boasting
> 
> Z reviews released a new review of Aune S7 amp and part of this video is a small preview of Verum headphones.
> 
> ...



Watched it all earlier, because I saw the Verum lying on the table to the right =D
For anyone interested about Verum, it begins around 9m:50s

Edit: Any update from Kickstarter? Don't want to miss the launch


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> Kickstarter will be launched in August, that's for sure. And sure I'll make an announce. Right now I'm editing description and video. Video is also DIY  It's rather hard for me, cause it's a new type of work for me.
> Frankly speaking, everything is ready for launch. I just want several reviews to be released to insert links to KS campaign there. Press coverage is vital for success.


Congrats man, I hope it does superb C:


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## chinsettawong

Congratulations!  

Can I book for a pair right now?


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## RenZixx

Garuspik, you can contact headphonezone in India. They only sell headphones, dacs and amps.


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## aomas (Aug 11, 2018)

I have my big boy pants on, and it is very hard to keep the pants on because the hype is real! Was there a limit for how many headphones can be bought in the KS campaign and are you gonna put serial number on headphones? That would be helpful, if there is variations. Also as it is kickstarter what are the kickstarter tiers gonna be? pay more and get stand?

Really do not want to miss out, have to keep eyes open like a hawk.


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> A minute of boasting
> 
> Z reviews released a new review of Aune S7 amp and part of this video is a small preview of Verum headphones.
> 
> ...



You just got Zeos happy and you know what that means! Your sales a pretty much going to sky rocket!


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## manishex

He said it will be the death of the m1060s? They're only $300ish...


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## RenZixx

Garuspik said:


> That comparison hurts my feelings  And it's almost not a joke. M1060 is garbage that made from garbage.
> Maybe it's good for those who wants to try some modification and don't want to break decent headphones. Monoprice is something like mockbuster in the world of heaphones.


Yep so no more garbage cough cough m1060 cough cough!


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> That comparison hurts my feelings  And it's almost not a joke. M1060 is garbage that made from garbage.
> Maybe it's good for those who wants to try some modification and don't want to break decent headphones. Monoprice is something like mockbuster in the world of heaphones.


Yup, that is Zeos for you - he will say the first thing that jumps to his head. He immediately follows it up by saying, paraphrasing "sell them for 700USD+" meaning he compares them more against the LCD-2s. Zeos is a reviewer that hypes products, not one that gives an in-depth detailed and analytical review based upon data, but what he does he does _very well_ (hyping/sponsoring products for the less extreme enthusiast community)


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## ksorota

Great job with the product video...Im really looking forward to these!

Any updates on the kickstarter release?

Best


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> That isn't a finished video and soon I'll delete it and upload final video. That's some sort of "work in progress" in video editing. DIY as usual
> Everything is almost ready to launch and I finally can tell you a date - Kickstarter will be launched at 21 of August.


Cheers, are these shipped from the Ukraine as stated in Zeos review?


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> They're made in Ukraine and shipped from Ukraine. Maybe it's because ... I'm from Ukraine


Let me supply the relevant meme for my failure; https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....519/EE3531D0C2F01AE82725D2CF284497BDF9D86024/ .  Cheers


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## nick n (Aug 14, 2018)

leeperry said:


> Sure but nothing beats a 200'ish grams phone comfort-wise so please keep the idea in mind. Audeze's been trolling you with their 80x70mm driver size statement on Sine anyway, you shall respond comrade
> 
> Sine is an ear-crusher and FWIR due to vacuum its diaphragms make plasticky noises whenever you move huh. It also has genuine leather glued onto its cups that's both unnecessary/fragile and kills market shares with vegans, .....
> 
> ...



These are excellent points and something I too have been thinking about also.
Especially the _supra_ portable part which does have it's advantages..
plus... it'd be cheaper to ship for you.
 I'm sure you have it in mind, so as a small reminder see the part above in red.
Down the road of course.

Excellent work so far!


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## aomas (Aug 14, 2018)

Yeah weight is not a problem if these are comfy and designed to balance the wieight. What i am more interested if these can be modded to be a decent closed, so i could use these on late nights while family sleeps. That why i asked Garuspik can these be easily modded to closed back while still sounding somewhat decent, or have u experimented that aspect? Like i would be willing to pay some extra to get matching closed cups to interchange when ever need to block sound getting out.


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## leeperry

Garuspik said:


> Guys, efficient planars of such size simply can't weight 200 grams. 180 grams is a weight of magnets
> But again - they are as comfortable, as 500 gr headphones can be. I've spent more time to make them comfortable then to make them sing. Final variant of sound was ready almost a year ago and another year was spent to make them reliable, lightweight for their size and comfortable.


Audeze did it, based on your claims I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.

500g is completely out of the scope for me and a total no-go, you're aiming for an audio-nerdy tiny niche willing to buy bulky heavy phones when you could aim for the crowd with a much lighter closed supra.


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## aomas (Aug 14, 2018)

leeperry said:


> Audeze did it, based on your claims I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.
> 
> 500g is completely out of the scope for me and a total no-go, you're aiming for an audio-nerdy tiny niche willing to buy bulky heavy phones when you could aim for the crowd with a much lighter closed supra.


Are you really comparing a dude who is about to make his diy project a commercial product to a company that's been in the business.. how many years, ten? . Sometimes its better to fill the niche than go against the big boys in an already crowded market and it is not that Audeze products have always hit the spot, el-8 as a good example.

I also am not fan of Audezes market practices like increasing prices of well established products, removing sales of ear-pads just to stop people from modding 'cheaper' alternatives.


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## leeperry

aomas said:


> Are you really comparing a dude who is about to make his diy project a commercial product to a company that's been in the business.. how many years, ten? . Sometimes its better to fill the niche than go against the big boys in an already crowded market and it is not that Audeze products have always hit the spot, el-8 as a good example.
> 
> I also am not fan of Audezes market practices like increasing prices of well established products, removing sales of ear-pads just to stop people from modding 'cheaper' alternatives.


I kinda am, yes. OP claims to have the secret sauce and magical hands so git it done please 

Everyone and his grandma makes open circum orthos these days, OTOH closed supras are scarce to the point that only Audeze has one AFAIK.


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## youngarthur

I have the M1060, that Garuspik does not like, so I am really looking forward to trying his designs, and will be supporting the Kickstarter campaign, as soon as it opens.


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## xantiema

youngarthur said:


> I have the M1060, that Garuspik does not like, so I am really looking forward to trying his designs, and will be supporting the Kickstarter campaign, as soon as it opens.


Now we just need to convert every other M1060 user and modders to the righteous path! :-D


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## GREQ

Garuspik said:


> 2. Just to think about the possible variants - if crowd-funding will be successful and Verum will gather more attention then initial goals what extended goals should be set? I'd like to hear your propositions. Maybe at least some of them I can bring into a life?



Usually top-tier backers get something exclusive, custom or rare. 
So if they back you for  let's say, 500 euros, (I have no idea what a good number would be for the top tier, it's just an example) It could be a limited run of 5 custom Verum 1's, where the 5 backers gets to pick the colours. 
But then those particular colours would never be allowed to be used again to preserve the exclusivity.

Then a tier down, 400 (again, arbitrary value), they could have their name or head-fi name embroidered into the headband.

People love this kind of stuff.. right? (I might be completely out of touch )


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## xantiema

Garuspik said:


> Just for example - cable that I now provide with headphones made from ordinary copper wire and neutrik connectors. Ok, that's it - quality but not TOP components. Everything is good for the price. But if, for example, I'll have orders for 200 headphones I can buy Mogami cable and Amphenol connectors cause I'll save big amount of funds if I order in bulk. And they are much better. In my business plan I have fixed percentage of profit and all extra funds (if they will be gathered) will be invested in the final product.
> 
> Same with headband - I was thinking about making headbands from Alcantara. Really great material, and if you order in bulk prices will be reduced dramatically.


I can attest to alcantara as a material, from the Microsoft Surface Pro. Also I find it a very interesting suggestion -the reason I say this, is that everyone has thought of special cables/connectors, but I must admit materials such as alcantara for the headband (possibly earcups) are very thought provoking in a good way =D

Good stuff lies ahead.


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## aomas

How about a stand (doesn't need to be anything fancy but something unique to verum, like a V shaped stand), or a carrying case or a box to store the headphones, additional pads would also be pretty good.


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## ksorota

I'm in favor of upgraded cables or additional pads (leather and/or velour) being included if certain sales numbers are reached... Also like the idea of a custom stand for higher value contributors.


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## leeperry (Aug 15, 2018)

Garuspik said:


> Verum 1s are  big headphones with audiophile approach to build&sound.


You are so focused on magnets, but there are plenty of smaller, thinner, and less heavy magnets you can use for a smaller driver.
Compromises must be agreed upon between open/closed, supra/circum and 200g/500g. Obviously there are FAR more 200g closed supra potential buyers than 500g open circum. Simple maths at work really as we're talking about mainstream Vs headfi nerds = less magnets, less shipping costs, less parts that would otherwise be required to balance weight evenly and possibly higher profit margin too.

If you can beat Sine(which I haven't heard) for a lower price then you have a market changer in your hands and not just a "me too" phone that nonetheless provides high bang/bucks.



Garuspik said:


> About closed cups - yes, I have some ideas.


Good to know coz like most people I live in a noisy city with a noisy computer and noisy neighbors so open cups are no option really.

Anyhow, we don't mean to threadcrap but please keep the idea in mind


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## xantiema

leeperry said:


> You are so focused on magnets, but there are plenty of smaller, thinner, and less heavy magnets you can use for a smaller driver.
> Compromises must be agreed upon between open/closed, supra/circum and 200g/500g. Obviously there are FAR more 200g closed supra potential buyers than 500g open circum. Simple maths at work really as we're talking about mainstream Vs headfi nerds = less magnets, less shipping costs, less parts that would otherwise be required to balance weight evenly and possibly higher profit margin too.
> 
> If you can beat Sine(which I haven't heard) for a lower price then you have a market changer in your hands and not just a "me too" phone that nonetheless provides high bang/bucks.
> ...



He needs to build up his reputation and brand, before even considering options you suggest - which from my understanding hasn't been excluded in the first place. You wanting  them prior to Verum 2 or Closed Back version is a different story entirely. I do not think potential mainstream buyers would opt into a DIY solution without any prior high-end headphone to showcase and backed by enthusiasts. Yes, I mean enthusiasts, which is what people here are and the ones who mostly would consider buying headphones such as these. I even consider most M1060 buyers enthusiasts, albeit not willing to pay premium levels of cash for an Audeze or Hifiman. I  totally understand Garuspik building his company up from the ground with a good reputation, then trying to enter the mass-market where there already is 1000s of headphones in competition (obviously not planars, but lets not kid ourselves - the actual technology matters less  to mainstream best-bang-for-buck type of customers).


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## lambdastorm

If I recall our previous conversation right, Verum 2's going to be a weight-reduced single-sided planar right?


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## OldDude04

xantiema said:


> I even consider most M1060 buyers enthusiasts, albeit not willing to pay premium levels of cash for an Audeze or Hifiman.



I agreed with most everything your post said except for the excerpt above. I love my M1060, but I've also had Audeze, HiFiMan, Focal, MrSpeakers, etc. I've sold them all except my Aeon Flows (currently up for sale) in favor of the M1060. So I don't believe people who prefer the Monoliths are necessarily unwilling to pay more money, they just like what they like. I'm hoping when I do end up with a Verum 1 that I like it as much as if not more than my M1060, because that way it has a chance to stay around longer than the name brand headphones that came and went before it.


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## K.Gabor

Hello all!

I'm really interested in these phones, but besides listening to music I would also like to use them for gaming, so does any of you know what the soundstage of these like? One of the reviews stated, that it's wider than taller but I have no idea what that means. For me it would be important to pinpoint players using sound in games, so this is a great concern for me.

Here is the review I mentioned: "Sound stage was very wide but in your head like most planar presentation. Depth was okay but placement was a little muddy. These are nitpicks and compared to my highly modified HE-500 so not a fair fight. 
Overall, there was more width than depth so there is an eliptical presentation to the sound."


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## K.Gabor

leeperry said:


> Long story short to get a good sense of height you need highly resolving DAC & headamp so sound cues can pass through at all. It boils down to phase coherence, stereo jitter yada yada



Thank you for the quick reply, I hope I'll be fine AMP-wise. I was concerned about the accurancy of the soundstage, hence I was a bit dumbfolded by the expression of the reviewer. I always like to know where the footsteps and sounds come from in game, so if these headphones are accurate in that sense that would be great. So if I'm not mistaken, it means that the sounds coming from up or down are not that well placed, but sounds coming all around are accurate?


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## aomas

Honestly i've always thought that for gaming an good V shaped headphones will always be better than somewhat 'neutral' tuned audiophile headphones.


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## K.Gabor

aomas said:


> Honestly i've always thought that for gaming an good V shaped headphones will always be better than somewhat 'neutral' tuned audiophile headphones.


True, but I have read somewhere, that planars don't tend to suffer much from EQ-ing in terms of distortion, so it should be fine even if i give it a few decibels on the low end.

Ps: Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...planar_magnetic_headphone_an_oxymoron/dsgk29l


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## aomas

I don't want to get too much offtopic, but some random person on reddit writes something doesn't make it somehow reality. Also in that same message they are talking that somehow Sens 600 (or 6xx) is mid-fi, where is the line in terms of mid-fi and hi-fi? I would see 6xx series as hi-fi.


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## leeperry

aomas said:


> I don't want to get too much offtopic, but some random person on reddit writes something doesn't make it somehow reality. Also in that same message they are talking that somehow Sens 600 (or 6xx) is mid-fi, where is the line in terms of mid-fi and hi-fi? I would see 6xx series as hi-fi.


I kinda wonder what OP would say about HD6__ but personally whatever 600 or 650 I find them utterly overhyped and I'm not the only one.


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## OldDude04

leeperry said:


> I kinda wonder what OP would say about HD6__ but personally whatever 600 or 650 I find them utterly overhyped and I'm not the only one.



You're not the only one. I found them both boring. But hey that is perfectly fine, because without subjectivity in this hobby, we'd all have the same headphone and there would be no need for this place.


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## Artyouth

The centre top knob placed upsidedown (under the metal band) may give it a cleaner look I think.
And the connection sockets angle a little to high, that make the plug points to front horizontally. If I use a heavy cable that may affact the stability.


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## Restatic

Garuspik said:


> Wafflelron, hi! I read your thread and you made a mistake in tracing diaphragm
> So let me explain how I did those mini speakers and I'm sure you understand about what I'm talking about
> 
> *Step 1*:
> ...



That would be great. I I will try to fix my Hifiman and 400s with new foil.....


----------



## Artyouth

The magnetic rings can it take out from the stock earpad and place to the other pad?


----------



## Restatic

Pradeep Varma said:


> I have Hifiman Edition X version 2 headphone, its left channel stops working, the service centre company not cooperative to solve this issue. Can you please suggest me if you can provide me diaphragm for this headphone as I have checked other parts are working well.



Same problem here on my 400s model. Did use it only for 2 years. Then during a heatwave in The Netherlands, the glue on the diaphragm did melt (I think).
- Tension is gone
- Channel imbalance
- Lack of sound stage
- 30% reduction on one side

So.. Hifiman sucks in durability. I did ask them how to fix
answer: "You can buy the Sunvara. And send your 400s back to use". 

So F%^&CK Hifiman!


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## lambdastorm

Restatic said:


> Same problem here on my 400s model. Did use it only for 2 years. Then during a heatwave in The Netherlands, the glue on the diaphragm did melt (I think).
> - Tension is gone
> - Channel imbalance
> - Lack of sound stage
> ...


How generous of them to offer you a pair of Sunvara. It's a limited run that adopts a sundara-style headband and susvara-style earcups which house two broken drivers. Matching two working drivers proves too hard a task for Fang, so he takes the broken one out from your 400s and unglued the other one. Now both channels are even!


----------

