# Orgy of Capacitors:  The Cap Thread



## Jon L

Well, I suppose it's time for the capacitor thread. I set out to satisfy my curiosity regarding various caps with first-hand experience, and as such, these impressions are not meant to be the Bible or written in stone. Personal tastes, system synergy, and cycle of the Moon all apply. 

 What you see is my DIY capacitor burn-in setup w/ resistor and *some* of my caps.







 In the pic, we have VH Audio teflons (black), Auricaps (yellow), VSE oil caps(silver), ClarityCap SA (red), Almarro polyester (grey), Jupiter beewax caps (orange), Multicap PPMFX (white), Multicap RTX polystyrene (white), Vitamin Q oil caps (small silver tube), NOS TRW polystyrene caps (small silver), Multicap PPFX (not pictured), Hovlands (not pictured), and some large PS caps. 

 Mostly I am comparing these in coupling capacitor duty in a couple of amps, Almarro A205a MkII and Bottlehead Paramour I with C4S upgrade. Both amps are used to drive my headphones and speakers, mainly Headphile modded Sennheiser HE60 electrostats (via SRD7 MkII), AKG K1000, HE Audio EH1.2B electrostat headphones, and my custom speakers (Aurum Cantus G3 ribbon tweeter, Focal 7K2 midrange, actively-biamped). 






 Almarro A205a MkII with Stax SRD7 MkII transformer and Headphile-modded Sennheiser HE60 "Baby Orpheus" electrostat headphones.






 Paramour 2A3 SET with C4S






 And the HE Audio EH1.2b electrostat headphones.






 If you have cap experience to share, feel free to post them here. 

 To start off with some comments. Don't believe everything you read in those "capacitor reviews" you see in mags, and capacitors, no matter how expensive and praised, will not "transform" turds into swan, not even the VCap teflons b/c caps will not *improve* anything. All they can do is minimize the self-harm done by them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *EDIT* Some actual listening impressions added.

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 V Cap Teflon






 These are worth the price, but if you read some people's descriptions, you would think the angels from heaven would descend and give you an eargasm. Not so. These will not transform your system or turn water into wine. They do have the least identifiable character and have the best control of various sound ranges. There is absolutely no overshoot or ringing when trumpets hit or when soprano kicks into high gear. Not lumpy, bloaty, overly-bloomy in any of the frequency ranges, and they do seem to let most of the details and information through unharmed and well-separated. 

 If I had to compare them in headphone terms, it would be like AKG K701 in general gestalt but with improved transparency and dead-neutral bass quantity/quality. 

 I *do* however detect a bit of what I call "teflon sound." It's very hard to actually describe, but those very familiar with how teflon-dielectric interconnects and other teflon caps like Relcap TFT sound will have an idea. Textures of notes are just a wee bit more "polished" and refined than live instruments, a bit more more "slippery" than should IMO. This is very subtle and a minor quibble, really, and if I had to use many caps in a cost-no-object component that has to have great transparency, VCap teflons would be my choice.

 *Further thoughts added"

 These really are great caps, and the defining feature that keeps popping in my brain is "transparency." The more caps I compare, the less descriptive adjectives are necessary for the VCaps while most other caps need various adjectives to describe their character. I sometimes wish these had more of that indescribable "magic" of the high-end Mundorfs, but this really comes down to personal preferences. 

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 Jupiter Beewax Cap






 The feel and appearance of this thing just does not inspire confidence. It feels like a piece of candle wrapped in paper, and these are known to have problems in warmer temperature environments. Do NOT install them near hot resistors, tubes, etc. 

 Sound-wise, I was expecting a mess of muddy blob based on appearance, but the sound is surprisingly transparent and clear, not as much as VCap teflons, but very good in absolute terms. There is *just* a bit more richness, tone, and girth to notes and voices, which are probably colorations, but Jupiter cap doesn't come across as overdone. What they trade away in absolute resolution, speed compared to VCaps, they battle back with more pleasing density, tone, and that indescribable musicality. Less separation of notes and a bit less anvil-taught in bass compared to VCaps, but there is plenty of treble and bass quantity.

 I like them! I probably wouldn't use too many in a component, but a couple of them in a otherwise-squeeky-clean component can do wonders for just musical enjoyment. 

 I would say these are most akin to something like Grado RS-1, except with a bit more treble extension and less peakiness in the lower-treble/upper-mids...

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 Siemens MKV polyproylene/metalissed aluminium/in oil

 *edit* Origin of these caps discovered






 I bought these from VSE (Vacuum State Audio) when they were still selling them. They were said to be some secret industrial caps they found to sound better than others. 

 When I first installed them after burning them in for days, I *really* hated them. The highs seemed severely shut-in, bass bloated, and midrange seemed veiled and thick. But after playing the amp with music for some days, these effects seemed to diminish day by day, and eventually I found the balance to be quite pleasing. Further burn-in has happened, but I'm sure people's ears/brain need some time to adjust to PIO signature. 

 Once fully operational, these had incredible warmth, tonality combined with breath-of-life type of sparkle to midrange/vocals. These are not high-treble sparkles, but each syllable of vocals seemed more lit, dramatic, and enjoyable. Treble was never obviously "airy" or minutely detailed, but once settled in, the highs seemed to align and balance with mids. Same thing with bass. There's more bass than perhaps neutral, and there is some slowness to bass, but it's still pretty firm and hard-hitting with that roundness of tone. 

 Ultimately, I prefer the better non-oil caps for a bit more neutrality, but these have got me curious about Audionote silver-in-oils or Mundorf silver-in-oils. I will never pay the ridiculous price for AN, but I *may* try the Mundorf silver-in-oils at some point. 

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 Auricaps






 These are good. Too bad the prices took a bad hike for the end user over the years. They have nice detail, speed, musicality, and their sound gives an extra bloom to the sound, which will make them fit well into somewhat cooler-sounding components, especially SS. Not as resolving as Teflons and not as rich/dense as Oilers or Jupiters but a good Jack-of-all...

 These worked surprisingly well for me when used as "bypass cap" for a larger (and cheaper) cap, imparting some of the nice detail and bloom to the combo.

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 Claritycap SA






 One of the reviews available tout this cap highly, and it *is* a good cap at the very low prices they command. It wouldn't hurt to try some as E-speakers.com ships them free within U.S. 

 I found it kind of bland, kind of nondescript, and not great at any one thing. But there's also no glaring flaws or aberrances that can be distracting, either. 

 My main issue was the lack of resolution in the midrange. I couldn't hear and feel the sumptuous detail and texture that I know to be in the recordings. Some people say these still are a big jump up from Solens, and I would agree if you're talking about less grain and "strain" in the upper-midrange. 

 However, I can bypass the cheap Solen with a small nice cap like Auricap or Polystyrenes, which gets rid of a lot of the glare/strain while offering better detail resolution than unbypassed Claritycap SA. When I tried bypassing the Clairtycap, I did *not* get much better resolution, and I still preferred Solen+bypass.

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 I suppose I will say more as my mood dictates and as I try some more stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 __________________

 *Edit* Mundorf Silver-In-Oil added

 Capacitor Impressions Continued. 

 Mundorf Silver-In-Oil






 I really did not know what to expect from these. Some people's reports mention things like "liquidity" and "smoothness," which led me to believe these would share a rather pleasant but not kick-you-in-the-groin resolution or power. Boy, was I wrong. 

 If push comes to shove, words like liquid and smooth *are* applicable, but there is so much more. The calling card of Mundorf SIO seems to be infinite shades of resolution riding on the oh-so-smooth sonic flow. There is enough detail for even detail freaks like me, and those who value life-like dynamic range and punch would love these as well. 

 Compared to other metallized poly caps, Mundorf SIO seems to be at least 2-3dB louder(!) at the same volume setting with punch that slams harder and truer. 

 This cap makes me very curious about the top-of-the-line Mundorf Gold/silver cap, which I happen to have sitting in front of me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *More thoughs*

 I must say these are probably the caps that most keeps me *wanting* to listen to music instead of rolling more caps. Musical enjoyment is obtained without short-changing detail or speed; what more can you ask for? The silver/oil is now 3rd in the Mundorf price scheme, and for many, that's all one needs/wants to spend on a cap. 

 _______________________________________________

 *Edit* Mundorf Silver/Gold added

 Mundorf Silver/Gold Capacitor






 Mostly I have been comparing the Mundorf Silver/Gold with VCap Teflons, and this has been a tough one to get a handle on. 

 This may be a good time to concede that above a certain level, various great capacitors are not particularly "better," but rather akin to looking at the same object under subtly different lighting conditions and vantage points. VCap Teflons and Mundorf Silver/Gold share many sound qaulities, especially jet-black, noise-free background from which subtlest details seem to naturally emerge. Presentation of both are so natural and non-attention-seeking that both may come across as bland or boring when compared to certain capacitors with stronger personalities. 

 Long-term living with the caps, however, confirms the greatness of both caps b/c music remains inviting, refined, and eminently enjoyable, as opposed to fatiguing, wearing thin, and distracting. 

 Since audiophiles tend to obsess over the last 5-10% of differences, I will mention that Silver/Gold has a bit richer presentation from top-to-bottom with a bit creamier textures and a bit closer imaging. As one can imagine from this description, Silver/Gold doesn't *quite* seem to be as Nth-degree clean as VCaps but renders more proportion of recordings more tasty. 

 I do not believe detail resolution is any less than VCaps, but a tiny bit more harmonic "bloom" over the notes makes music both sexier and less pellucid at the same time. Some people will absolutely love this quality and call Silver/Gold much "better" than VCaps while others will absolutely declare VCaps to be the better cap for the same reasons. To throw more wrench into the equation, the optimal tube set for one cap is NOT the best set for the other cap and vice versa. Such is life.

 I am also unable to directly compare Mundorf Silver/Gold to Mundorf Silver/Oil at this time due to my system configuration, but my preliminary sense is that the two are not all that different sounding, though the small amount of gold compound mixed with silver does seem to add just a wee bit extra harmonic richness and warmth. To be continued.

 *More thoughts"

 After listening more to the "neutral" camp of caps like Mundorf Zn and Relcap RTX, the calling card of Mundorf silver/gold has to be the come-hither midrange that is colorful without being colored, full of rich textures, and just bristling with life and vividness. I may respect some other caps more, but I love the Mundorf silver/gold like family.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *Edit* Mundorf Zn added

 Mundorf Zn Capacitor






 After a long love affair with Mundorf Silver/Oil, circumstances forced my hand to try the Mundorf Zn Tin Foil capacitor. 

 Some well-respected modders recommend the Mundorf Zn as one of the "most neutral" cap out there, regardless of cost, including Allen Wright of VSE (Vacuum State Electronics) fame. 

 Considering the Mundorf Zn costs less than 1/6th of their top-of-range silver/gold & oil, I was hoping this cap would turn out to be the giant-killer that saves our day and pocketbooks. 

 The good news. This cap has incredible "low-loss" sound. One gets the impression every little detail comes through and that musical speed does not get impeded. Bass is taught, punchy, and treble extension soars; midrange seems linear. Its sound signature is what many audiophiles would think of when words like "neutral, detailed, honest, etc" are used, and they would be right, uh..sort of. 

 The bad news. Compared to an exquisite cap like Mundorf silver/oil, what is not coming through as well is the harmonic beauty of the music, the "soul" if you will: overtones upon overtones gently bubbling to the surface as the singer sings the words and the trumpet makes those aching notes. 

 In addition, each instrument/voice does not seem as developed 3-D wise. Through Zn, they seem more 2-dimensional and "flat." Combined with its more dry (less bloomy) presentation, there is less involvement.

 So I have mixed feelings about Mundorf Zn. Its sound is technically superior and "uncolored," an order of magnitude better than pretty much any other "cheap" cap you can buy. If I were designing/building a transparent preamp, I can see using the Zn in many places, judiciously mixing them with tube magic elsewhere to come out with supreme results. If you have a preamp/amp that's more dry and matter-of-fact to begin with, I would advise against the Zn. 

 Actually, I think the Zn may lend itself incredibly well as bypass caps in speaker crossovers due to its qualities. I'll get to that eventually.

 *More luminations"

 Upon reading back my own words, I realized they were too harsh for these wonderful caps. After your ears get used to their Teutonic charm, everything sounds just-so and perfectly musical, not wanting for anything obvious. Still highly recommended, and the price is a bonus. 

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 *Edit* 

 Sonicap Platinum Teflon Capacitor






 In order to prepare for the Sonicap Platinum, I actually reinstalled the VCap Teflon in place of Mundorf Zn in order to get used to the VCap again for awhile before popping in the Sonicap, which was running on the Cap break-in apparatus at the same time. 

 In short, the Sonic Craft website's description of its sound is pretty accurate:
 "It is very fast, but full and rich. The presentation is ultra smooth without loss of detail, focus, or dynamics."

 In direct comparison to VCap Teflons, SP (Sonicap Platinum) *was* a bit richer and a smidge creamier. We're talking about somewhat subtle differences, but SP was definitely a bit denser, darker, therefore subjectively a wee bit smoother through the midranges. Some will almost recognize a bit of this as found in a good paper-in-oil cap, minus the treble rolloff or bass slowness, of course. 

 The VCap still does come across as a teeny bit more transparent and lit-up, and what's somewhat special about the VCap is the fact it sounds *consistently* transparent/lit-up throughout its ranges, especially in the critical upper-midrange to low-treble transition; there's no peaks or bumps here even though the whole range is better lit-up. 

 With SP, even though everything else seems a bit smoother and richer, there seems to my ears a very narrow band, somewhere at the highest end of female vocal sibilance to top-hats, that appears to have the tiniest bit more "sparkle" than the rest of the range. I only mention it b/c it is a difference.

 Overall, SP is a nice alternative to the VCap teflons and costs less. Just like anything in audio, some systems will synergize better with one or the other. For those who have listened and think VCap is a bit too literal or "sterile" (I don't personally) in their systems, Sonicap Platinum is a viable choice.

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 Relcap RTX






 This tin foil/polystyrene cap has been around a long time, and many designers and modders swear by their use as bypass caps. Some more recent cap comparisons also confirm they are very good coupling caps by themselves. 

 The RTX had some big shoes to fill, replacing Sonicap Platinums, and I must say they did pretty well against the heavy hitters. 

 *Warning* Even after a long break-in, these caps sounded horrid for some hours after being soldered in, sounding grainy on top and anemic in the bass. Do not evaluate them without a long workout after solder dries.

 After dust settled, these turned out to be very balanced top-to-bottom with no gross errors or peaks. Extension of frequency extremes was impressive, and the level of resolution was high without highlighting upper-midrange or upper-bass.

 Compared to Sonicap Platinums, RTX didn't sound as dense and rich in the midrange, but it still managed to sound subjectively neutral, akin to some of those high-class red wines that's on the dry side as opposed to fruity and colorful. At a bit over half the price of Sonicap Platinums, these are a nice bargain in the cap world, but I wouldn't use too many in equipment that tends toward dryness in the midrange.

 What really put the RTX in perspective was when I switched in Mundorf silver/gold again. Suddenly, I had beautifully colorful (but not colored) midrange that "popped" with effortless midrange dynamics. Musical textures just pulled your ears in, and that often-yearned-for "magic" was in the air. Mundorf silver/gold is almost three times the price of RTX, unfortunately, so save your pennies.
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 *Edit* 

 Mundorf silver/gold vs. silver/oil











 I finally did some proper comparisons between these 2 capacitors, and while they do share the musical Mundorf house sound, their differences are significant enough that one should not automatically think a system synergistic with one will be synergistic with the other.

 There are some who have concluded silver/gold is "not as good" as silver/oil, but I would not agree with that conclusion. However, they have sufficiently differing presentations and gestalt that yes, one "may" definitely prefer silver/oil in a given setup/preferences. 

 One word I would use to describe the main difference is "liquidity." While both are remarkably smooth, silver/oil has more liquidity, not enough to obscure detail but just enough to "massage" recordings that are not perfect. As a result, I am able to enjoy more percentage of my recordings through silver/oil, which liquifies a few percent of the upper-midrange/low-treble spittiness and hardness inherent in many recordings. Because silver/oil makes this range less noticeable, the high treble/air becomes relatively more noticeable, but upon closer analysis, the silver/gold has just as much upper end extension and air. 

 So once again, I still think silver/oil is the cap that most likely will have me keep listening to my (non-perfect) music collection instead of tweaking, but if your system is already leaning towards liquidity, silver/gold may be a better choice.
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 Russian FT3 Teflon Capacitor






 I must first thank an Audio Circle member Gary (“GBB”) for loaning me the FT3 and K72 caps. Otherwise, I would have had to buy on eBay and wait a month for delivery. The FT3 is a great cap sonically, but its sheer size and weight can present a challenge in cramped spaces. Its lack of traditional leadouts also forces one to make his own; I had to solder some leftover leads as seen in the photo above. 

 This cap is exceedingly smooth, smooth, yet resolved like only teflon caps are. This evenness and lack of glare, grain, or bite can be disadvantageous for FT3, especially in quick cap-rolling A-B comparisons, where a cap with a more insistent personality will attract more attention and spotlight. However, after living with this cap for a long time, one has to marvel at its consistently musically-revealing nature and tonality. It doesn’t wear its detail resolution on its sleeve, yet when one chooses to listen for it, the extension in both directions are impressive as well as actual detail. Its trick is having equal resolution from top-to-bottom, so the whole is well, wholesome. It conveys music in a flowing, suave tonality and is the crooner of the cap crowd. 
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 Russian K72 Teflon Capacitor






 Probably the most hyped AND maligned cap out there. Some praise it while others despise it and write it off completely. It is my understanding that FT3 and K72 caps are internally the same. Here is an internal picture of K72, courtesy of the internet.






 FT3 uses aluminum casing and thin tabs as leadouts while K72 uses thicker steel casing with solid poles as leadouts. FT3 is glass-encapsulated while K72 is hermetically sealed, and due to the thick steel case, K72 is even heavier than FT3. 

 One huge caveat to comparing K72 and FT3 is that the largest value of K72 available seems to be 0.056uF, while FT3 is predominantly available in 0.1 and 0.22uF. My loaned K72 was the customary 0.056uF and FT3 0.22uF, and yes, the larger cap is “supposed” to be more bassy. Lo and behold, FT3 does seem to be a little richer in the bass region; however, it was not a huge difference, and there is no way to tell how much of this is due to the uF difference or just the way these caps sound. This cannot be answered today b/c K72 does not come in 0.1 or 0.22uF and FT3 does not come in 0.056uF. 

 These caps do sound similar, but after doing A-B-A-B comparisons using music with and without bass, I can say they do have differences. K72 adds a pinch of spice and “kick” to the proceedings. Middle midrange to somewhere in upper midrange seems to sound bit more obviously “detailed” with K72; this leads to a little more tension in the listener’s shoulders when playing poorly-recorded material, i.e. the vast majority of today’s compressed and hotly EQ’d modern fare. Some may even call it extra grain, glaze, or hardness compared to FT3’s relative softer rendering. However, with clean recordings, I can see some people even preferring K72 for its more assertive, forward stance. Combining that little highlighting with a bit tighter control, K72 comes across as hair more dynamic and fun. Which Teflon cap should you purchase? Well, both are cheap enough that I think you should try both, but do consider if you wish for a little more smoothness vs. forwardness from current setup. 

 P.S. When you tap the stiff steel case of K72, you can hear and feel a hollow “ping” resonance. I tried applying a strip of EAR Isodamp material, covering about 1/3 of the surface area, which attenuated the sparkle and “detail” just a tad. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but depending on your tastes, a bit of damping may have a role.
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 Are You a Contender?

 So, are these Russian teflon caps as “good” as the V Caps, Sonicap Teflons? Well, I know some say no, but I don’t know how to answer that. 

 In direct comparisons, VCap teflon does come across as having the highest highs and the most linear response across the range. It paints the sonic scape with the finer brush, and its sonic signature reminds me of my beloved Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate tubes for you tube people. On the other hand, the FT3 and especially K72 have a more forward, bolder midrange presentation, albeit with a bit less refinement and a bit bolder lower midrange/upper bass range. I enjoy listening to deep male vocals a bit more through the Russian caps while VCaps absolutely rule with high-pitched female vocals and instruments that live in the same range and above, resolving them with the finest of the surgical scalpel yet without any harshness. 

 I really don’t feel all these caps should be given concrete rankings, like number 1, 2, 3, etc. Let’s just say music can sound glorious with most good caps mentioned in this article, often coming down to tweaking tubes, interconnects, power cords, etc.
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 Russian K40y Paper-In-Oil Capacitor






 I must thank “Bob B” and “Les Lemmars” for kindly loaning me these K40y caps. After the usual rocky burn-in ritual, this PIO cap settled into a confident, natural sounding device. There are some audiophiles who rank these PIO caps as the best of the Russian military caps, including the FT-3 and K72 teflon caps. I may agree with this sentiment when it comes to utter naturalness and ease of presentation as well as the lack of a subtle “plastic” sound, which of course all plastic (film) caps have. 

 Gladly, this PIO cap did not have an overly dark, laid-back sound some people may expect of PIO caps. The important midrange energy was quite forceful and engaging as well as richly harmonic. The rendering of textures was most reminiscent of a good vinyl setup, which is a good thing; and detail resolution was not lacking, either, but the extreme “air” on top was not as beautifully alive as with VCap teflons. Speaking of teflons, the only real reservation I have about K40y is in the bass. The VCap Teflon, K72, FT3, Sonicap Platinum all seem to have a tighter control over basslines with sharper leading edges and snappier decay. K40y’s bass is more woody, richer, but just shy of the vise-grip crunch, so if you’re a death-metal or electronica fan, K40y may not get you to the promised land. 

 Overall, I really enjoyed the K40y. Its raison d’tere falls squarely in the critical midrange, where tons of texture, bloom, and natural detail anchor the music without that subtle synthetic feel of many other caps. Although the voices aren’t brightly spotlit, there is a magical highlighting and intensification without turning bright. 

 Dare I dream of oil-impregnated foamed-teflon silver-foil capacitor…?
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 Vishay Roederstein MKP-1839 Metalized Polypropylene Capacitor






 Audio Circle member “slbender” was kind enough to send me some less-than-exotic caps to evaluate, including the Vishay MKP-1839. His view is that most caps of similar construction, e.g. metallized poly, should sound very similar, no matter the brand or price. This was a good exercise for me because it helped with the “Big Question” that must be lurking in the minds of many audiophiles: are these expensive, exotic capacitors worth it? 

 Vishay MKP-1839 is the axial version of the more famous Vishay Roederstein MKP1837 (a.k.a. ERO MKP1830), which is touted as a good bypass cap, and represents a well-made, inexpensive metallized poly cap. And as it turns out, it also sounds good as a coupling cap. Upon casual listening from a casual house guest, for example, it is unlikely he will jump up and down and scream, “Put back that other capacitor X ASAP!”

 MKP-1839 sounds pretty well-balanced, without obvious peaks or valleys, and pleasant; it is less hard-sounding than, say Solens. In fact, one can only wish manufacturers would use caps like MKP-1839 in their cheaper, generic audio gear. So, why should you pay more for your cap?

 The most important difference between MKP and some of the better caps is the weight behind the notes. I’m not talking about bass weight or warmth but the fully fleshed-out, 3-dimensional harmonic energy behind each note, be it in treble, mid, or bass. Lacking this, soprano, chime, flute can sound just 2-dimentional and thin, failing to fully make you believe. 

 The other significant difference is in dynamics. The MKP doesn’t sound too lacking until you compare to the better caps. A “pop” or “thwack” via MKP sounds like a fighter who is punching to save his neighbor’s life whereas via a better cap, he sounds like he’s punching to save his own life. Similar difference in microdynamics as well; better caps simply let the small nuances and subtleties to bubble to the surface with easier effervescence and life. 

 I still don’t believe any of this truly answers the question whether exotic caps are worth it because the answer will depend on one’s gear, tastes, resolution level of the system, musical choice, pocketbook status, and simply how crazy you are. Time to enjoy the music, either way, any way…


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## OverlordXenu

You do know that it only takes a few seconds for capacitors to set, right?


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You do know that it only takes a few seconds for capacitors to set, right?_

 

This is true in most cases, however, it can change depending on the capacitive material used in the capacitor and the rated voltage. I agree as far as how capacitor won't *improve* anything. Stick it in your ear "V-cap Dock" owners.

 BTW, nice collection of caps, though, maybe putting them on the inside of the equipment might help as far as aesthetics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## nickknutson

Holy Cap! That's alotta caps! Can't wait to hear your impressions!


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## nickknutson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You do know that it only takes a few seconds for capacitors to set, right?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is true in most cases, however, it can change depending on the capacitive material used in the capacitor and the rated voltage. I agree as far as how capacitor won't *improve* anything. Stick it in your ear "V-cap Dock" owners.

 BTW, nice collection of caps, though, maybe putting them on the inside of the equipment might help as far as aesthetics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

Seriously, you guys are going to start this debate on the second and third posts of the thread? You gotta be kidding me.


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is true in most cases, however, it can change depending on the capacitive material used in the capacitor and the rated voltage. I agree as far as how capacitor won't *improve* anything. Stick it in your ear "V-cap Dock" owners.

 BTW, nice collection of caps, though, maybe putting them on the inside of the equipment might help as far as aesthetics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. I thought it varied within a few seconds for all capacitors.


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## Gnoshroom

That Radioshack iron doesn't belong in that picture with all those expensive caps... So wrong


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## Gnoshroom

And remember you've got to add some San Pedro, and Audio Note Silvers to the mix....


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## PhaedrusX

whether it takes a few seconds or a few hundred hours for the caps to settle, i wonder why more amp designers don't take the time to burn them in before soldering them onto the boards.
 seems like the simplest thing to do.


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## TMM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhaedrusX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whether it takes a few seconds or a few hundred hours for the caps to settle, i wonder why more amp designers don't take the time to burn them in before soldering them onto the boards.
 seems like the simplest thing to do._

 

Because they know it only takes a few seconds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus, the people who actually believe in burn-in probably won't care if its not fully burnt in. They might even enjoy burning it in


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## rodentmacbeastie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TMM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because they know it only takes a few seconds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus, the people who actually believe in burn-in probably won't care if its not fully burnt in. They might even enjoy burning it in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Believe in burn in? Of course, as well as Cryo too. Black Gates take 100's pf hours.


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## spritzer

Looking good!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is very true that the only thing a good cap does is to mangle the sound a bit less then the other, lesser caps.


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## infinitesymphony

From what I've seen in the DIY forum, the people who have taken the time to measure some of these capacitors have found most of them to be of high quality, so it should be an interesting test.


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## Faust2D

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spritzer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking good!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is very true that the only thing a good cap does is to mangle the sound a bit less then the other, lesser caps._

 

I would even say mangle the sound differently than the lesser cap


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## AudioCats

nice collection! 
 Can't wait to read the impressions!


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## ruZZ.il

call me whatever, but the black gates I've used took some time to settle in. And noticeably so. So have other caps, to some degree.. and not mere seconds. Otherwise, nice collection! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Start building amps around them already!


----------



## spritzer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Faust2D* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would even say mangle the sound differently than the lesser cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

True... interstage transformers ftw!!


----------



## majkel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spritzer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True... interstage transformers ftw!!_

 

Blah, DC coupled design rulez! Best cap is no cap, best trafo = no trafo. No cap or no trafo = no bass roll-off, no additional distortions and the like.


----------



## spritzer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Blah, DC coupled design rulez! Best cap is no cap, best trafo = no trafo. No cap or no trafo = no bass roll-off, no additional distortions and the like._

 

True but DC coupling has its own limitations and a transformer coupled circuit sounds great when there is a quality transformer used.


----------



## tomb

You guys already know about this, right? An excellent work already done by Head-Fi user "dsavitsk" -

Notes On Output Coupling Capacitors


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys already know about this, right? An excellent work already done by Head-Fi user "dsavitsk" -

Notes On Output Coupling Capacitors_

 

I would add that dsavitsk's descriptions align more with my own impressions, more than the 2 other reviews linked to in dsavistsk's article at the end. The 3 reviews really conflict with each other, and before I actually tried and compared myself, I couldn't tell which review would be "better." 

 His review, though, does not include teflon caps, which is where I can help a bit. Might as well move forward with some impressions. Just remember these are just general impressions based on my own ears and system, as rigid scientific testing of so many caps just is not possible.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 V Cap Teflon

 These are worth the price, but if you read some people's descriptions, you would think the angels from heaven would descend and give you an eargasm. Not so. These will not transform your system or turn water into wine. They do have the least identifiable character and have the best control of various sound ranges. There is absolutely no overshoot or ringing when trumpets hit or when soprano kicks into high gear. Not lumpy, bloaty, overly-bloomy in any of the frequency ranges, and they do seem to let most of the details and information through unharmed and well-separated. 

 If I had to compare them in headphone terms, it would be like AKG K701 in general gestalt but with improved transparency and dead-neutral bass quantity/quality. 

 I *do* however detect a bit of what I call "teflon sound." It's very hard to actually describe, but those very familiar with how teflon-dielectric interconnects and other teflon caps like Relcap TFT sound will have an idea. Textures of notes are just a wee bit more "polished" and refined than live instruments, a bit more more "slippery" than should IMO. This is very subtle and a minor quibble, really, and if I had to use many caps in a cost-no-object component that has to have great transparency, VCap teflons would be my choice.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Jupiter Beewax Cap


 The feel and appearance of this thing just does not inspire confidence. It feels like a piece of candle wrapped in paper, and these are known to have problems in warmer temperature environments. Do NOT install them near hot resistors, tubes, etc. 

 Sound-wise, I was expecting a mess of muddy blob based on appearance, but the sound is surprisingly transparent and clear, not as much as VCap teflons, but very good in absolute terms. There is *just* a bit more richness, tone, and girth to notes and voices, which are probably colorations, but Jupiter cap doesn't come across as overdone. What they trade away in absolute resolution, speed compared to VCaps, they battle back with more pleasing density, tone, and that indescribable musicality. Less separation of notes and a bit less anvil-taught in bass compared to VCaps, but there is plenty of treble and bass quantity.

 I like them! I probably wouldn't use too many in a component, but a couple of them in a otherwise-squeeky-clean component can do wonders for just musical enjoyment. 

 I would say these are most akin to something like Grado RS-1, except with a bit more treble extension and less peakiness in the lower-treble/upper-mids...

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Aluminum foil/paper-in-oil Caps


 I bought these from VSE (Vacuum State Audio) when they were still selling them. They were said to be some secret industrial caps they found to sound better than others. 

 When I first installed them after burning them in for days, I *really* hated them. The highs seemed severely shut-in, bass bloated, and midrange seemed veiled and thick. But after playing the amp with music for some days, these effects seemed to diminish day by day, and eventually I found the balance to be quite pleasing. Further burn-in has happened, but I'm sure people's ears/brain need some time to adjust to PIO signature. 

 Once fully operational, these had incredible warmth, tonality combined with breath-of-life type of sparkle to midrange/vocals. These are not high-treble sparkles, but each syllable of vocals seemed more lit, dramatic, and enjoyable. Treble was never obviously "airy" or minutely detailed, but once settled in, the highs seemed to align and balance with mids. Same thing with bass. There's more bass than perhaps neutral, and there is some slowness to bass, but it's still pretty firm and hard-hitting with that roundness of tone. 

 Ultimately, I prefer the better non-oil caps for a bit more neutrality, but these have got me curious about Audionote silver-in-oils or Mundorf silver-in-oils. I will never pay the ridiculous price for AN, but I *may* try the Mundorf silver-in-oils at some point. 

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Auricaps

 These are good. Too bad the prices took a bad hike after certain famous people started to talk them up, though. They have nice detail, speed, musicality, and their sound gives an extra bloom to the sound, which will make them fit well into somewhat cooler-sounding components, especially SS. Not as resolving as Teflons and not as rich/dense as Oilers or Jupiters but a good Jack-of-all...

 These worked surprisingly well for me when used as "bypass cap" for a larger (and cheaper) cap, imparting some of the nice detail and bloom to the combo.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Claritycap SA

 One of the reviews available tout this cap highly, and it *is* a good cap at the very low prices they command. It wouldn't hurt to try some as E-speakers.com ships them free within U.S. 

 I found it kind of bland, kind of nondescript, and not great at any one thing. But there's also no glaring flaws or aberrances that can be distracting, either. 

 My main issue was the lack of resolution in the midrange. I couldn't hear and feel the sumptuous detail and texture that I know to be in the recordings. Some people say these still are a big jump up from Solens, and I would agree if you're talking about less grain and "strain" in the upper-midrange. 

 However, I can bypass the cheap Solen with a small nice cap like Auricap or Polystyrenes, which gets rid of a lot of the glare/strain while offering better detail resolution than unbypassed Claritycap SA. When I tried bypassing the Clairtycap, I did *not* get much better resolution, and I still preferred Solen+bypass.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I suppose I will say more as my mood dictates and as I try some more stuff


----------



## Jon L

Impressions added to original post #1


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Impressions added to original post #1_

 

Could you make the pictures in the first post smaller? You could link them to the high-res originals.

 Otherwise, we low-res non-widescreen (1024x768) users have a great deal of trouble reading your descriptions, since they're horizontally off the page.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you make the pictures in the first post smaller? You could link them to the high-res originals.

 Otherwise, we low-res non-widescreen (1024x768) users have a great deal of trouble reading your descriptions, since they're horizontally off the page._

 

800x600 edit coming up!


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_800x600 edit coming up!_

 

Much better. Thank you!


----------



## dsavitsk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_His review, though, does not include teflon caps, which is where I can help a bit._

 

I have some small Russian Teflons that I use in this design, and that outperform the Vit Q, RTX, and Orange Drops I tried there, but no, I am too cheap to buy Teflons. The closest I might come are the Cardas caps, or the Sonicap Platinum, which both use some Teflon but avoid that Teflon sheen by mixing in other materials.

 Also, just to contradict someone, it is true that eliminating caps from the signal path is basically always a good thing, but this is not necessarily the case with transformers. Transformer couping is often a much better option than direct coupling, but since this is a cap thread, I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dsavitsk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Transformer couping is often a much better option than direct coupling, but since this is a cap thread, I'll leave it at that._

 

No kidding, especially if you get the trannies from Jack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He *used* to charge very reasonable prices for his trannies, but I suspect the recent copper price hikes probably have affected his prices as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I *really* like this parafeed thing BTW.

 Which Kommie Kaps have you tried, the ones with hard magnetic shell with round stumps or the FT-2/FT-3 series with aluminum body? 

 I wanted to order some, but once you figure in the shipping charges from Russia, I figured I might as well buy some caps in the States...


----------



## majkel

Transformers are OK when not undersized (quite common) and wound on a decent core (talking amorphous or nanocrystalline at best). Hail to Mr Cavalli for DC-coupled hybrid amplifier design! I feel some itching on it but have no time to assemble the EHHA soon.


----------



## pinkfloyd4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You do know that it only takes a few seconds for capacitors to set, right?_

 

by set you mean to burn in or charge? Blackgate NXs take upwards of 200 hours to burn in. 

 to the OP, do you know of dsavitsk? He posts mostly in the DIY forum, and is kind of the cap guru there ecp.cc

 haha wow am I an idiot, how did I not see that he'd already posted? *sigh* long day i guess


----------



## shokunin

Hey Jon,

 Nice write up! Which amp were using for the comparisons, some of them caps (small ones) appear to be for the almarro. Are you also using some as bypass caps for your 2A3 amp?

 Glenn


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shokunin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Jon,

 Nice write up! Which amp were using for the comparisons, some of them caps (small ones) appear to be for the almarro. Are you also using some as bypass caps for your 2A3 amp?

 Glenn_

 

Yeah, in my Almarro A205a MkII and Paramour 2A3 SET in coupling positions. After *hearing* the obvious difference various caps make, I'm amazed that any component with many caps can sound half-way neutral..

 BTW, Glenn, did you receive your ugly 'stats yet (yeah, I feel your pain), and what amp do you plan to drive it with?


----------



## shokunin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, Glenn, did you receive your ugly 'stats yet (yeah, I feel your pain), and what amp do you plan to drive it with?_

 

Don't get me started on my ugly gear, I hear enough of it from the wife. Of course, I had to buy yet another effen ugly peice of audio equipment, I can feel the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 eyes roll already from the wife. According to Fang it's two more weeks before they ship.

 Well I can use Stax SRD-7 MK II using my dart, v-capped almarro, or if I can fix this time which I just bought Paramount 300b. 

 I *may* have a true electrostat amp in my hands before they arrive, we'll see though.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shokunin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..or if I can fix this time which I just bought Paramount 300b. 

 I *may* have a true electrostat amp in my hands before they arrive, we'll see though._

 

Dang, you've got to stop buying gear! I completely missed that Paramount Auction 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Those EH 300B has got to go, though. I bet my AVVT AV32B tubes would sound GREAT in that thing


----------



## shokunin

Ironically, I didn't buy much in 2007, more like I waited for the stuff I bought 2006 to finally ship in 2007. I guess it's one of the even-year things. I should have bought more esoteric headphones and stockpiled them, they would have appreciated better than my portfolios, sheesh, the market's been brutal over the last two months.

 We'll have to meet up as I want to listen to your Headphiled HE60's!! What 300b's would you recommend, I haven't been keeping up with the chinese/czech 300b's since I sold my Parabees a couple years ago with current production WE300b's. I knew I should have kept the 300b's.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shokunin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I knew I should have kept the 300b's._

 

Yup, you should have...

 It's a sad state of 300B tubes out there. I'm glad I'm not in the market for 300B tubes.

 We'll definitely have to meet up for a mini 'stat meet once your (improved look) 1.2B's arrive


----------



## shokunin

No kidding, been doing some searching through the asylum and other places, not much going on over the past couple years. Looks like you AVVT tubes have had some NOS problems in holding their longevity over the long term. That's too bad that age itself could kill the tube even though they've not been used.

 Maybe I should convert it to 2A3, though I'm not sure if it'll be enough power. I'll let you know when the 1.2B's get here.


----------



## shokunin

My Paramounts arrived with Mundorf Silver/Oil 3.3uf Parafeed caps and .1uf coupling caps. Wasn't expecting such pricey caps on a fire-sale amp. Once I get one of them fixed we'll see how they sound.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shokunin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Paramounts arrived with Mundorf Silver/Oil 3.3uf Parafeed caps and .1uf coupling caps. Wasn't expecting such pricey caps on a fire-sale amp. Once I get one of them fixed we'll see how they sound._

 

Lucky dog. Who the heck sold the amp to you? 
 Anyway, I seem to have acquired some Mundorf Gold/silver, Mundorf silver in oil, and Sonicap Platinums coming my way, so this thread will get an update later.


----------



## shokunin

I got the paramounts from the audiogon auction from Docgab. If you look at the auction pictures you can see a big ol fat mundorf Cap. I though it might just be an mcap supreme or some other generic mundorf cap, but to my surprise it was a silver/oil cap.

 After several responses to Eileen at BH, she's has not replied back on buying a paramount manual. Seeing how this isn't too much different than the Parabees I built many years ago. Based on what I could gather off AA, some of the voltage measurements were off due to a cold solder joint, that and the coupling cap were nearly touching the monster resistors. Redoing those joints and moving the caps seems to have fixed any issues with the amp. *knock on wood*

 the EH tubes suck. My parabees weren't this dark or lacking in air and sweetness. Must be the tubes (I hope). Sounds okay so far but I need new tubes. Has good 'body' but lacking in sweetness, air and attack of the Almarro. 

 My EH1.2's have shipped!!


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shokunin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the EH tubes suck. My parabees weren't this dark or lacking in air and sweetness. Must be the tubes (I hope). Sounds okay so far but I need new tubes. Has good 'body' but lacking in sweetness, air and attack of the Almarro. 

 My EH1.2's have shipped!!_

 

Ehh... You can try my AVVT 32B's when we do the 'stat thing after the 1.2B arrives. 

 I have a feeling, though, there may be too much of silver/oil goodness in your amp. Something like Sonicap platinum at the 0.1uF position "might" do the trick.


----------



## Roam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Transformers are OK when not undersized (quite common) and wound on a decent core (talking amorphous or nanocrystalline at best)._

 

Actually it's far more important to have proper winding & core geometry than core material. Proper interleaving, layering, choice of insulators, wire gauge and so forth will have a far greater influence on the sound than the core material. I have a set of regular M6 EI core transformers which are more detailed & resolving than amorphous core Lundahls, unfortunately it comes at a slight cost in bandwidth. The fun is in controlling the B-field and E-field events in the transformer and how they interact with each other, the best transformer winders can make them do some very interesting things, for instance, a push-pull transformer with negligible crossover distortion.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After *hearing* the obvious difference various caps make, I'm amazed that any component with many caps can sound half-way neutral.._

 

It sounds half-way neutral, but it isn't. It seems that way since the capacitors have removed a roughly equal portion from every single part of the music, everything still seems in balance, except that there's a fair bit less of everything. Capacitor differences are always most obvious when you're down to the last one or two of them.


----------



## Jon L

Capacitor Impressions Continued. 

 Mundorf Silver-In-Oil






 I really did not know what to expect from these. Some people's reports mention things like "liquidity" and "smoothness," which led me to believe these would share a rather pleasant but not kick-you-in-the-groin resolution or power. Boy, was I wrong. 

 If push comes to shove, words like liquid and smooth *are* applicable, but there is so much more. The calling card of Mundorf SIO seems to be infinite shades of resolution riding on the oh-so-smooth sonic flow. There is enough detail for even detail freaks like me, and those who value life-like dynamic range and punch would love these as well. 

 Compared to other metallized poly caps, Mundorf SIO seems to be at least 2-3dB louder(!) at the same volume setting with punch that slams harder and truer. 

 This cap makes me very curious about the top-of-the-line Mundorf Gold/silver cap, which I happen to have sitting in front of me


----------



## spritzer

The Murdorfs are very, very good and very cheap for what they offer.


----------



## Rico67

Could you speak about voltage and value to choose a good cap ?


----------



## piotr z

great thread - I was actually browsing google for mundorf's SIO when I found this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - they seems to have one of the best performances at a very reasonable price


----------



## KoKoKrunch

Please do post the reviews on Gold/Silver, I'm currently considering between SIO or Gold/Silver, it'll be a great help!


----------



## Rico67

Could you speak about voltage and value to choose a good cap to put in the signal path ?

 Nobody ???


----------



## Nick 214

I like the Priority Mail "isolation deck" it's a nice touch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 NK


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rico67* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you speak about voltage and value to choose a good cap to put in the signal path ?

 Nobody ???_

 

Hmm. Your question doesn't really make much sense. Usually you have stock caps with certain voltage and uF rating, which you will replace with same (or similar) value cap. 

 BTW. My next reports are likely to be slower in coming b/c essentially the two amps I've been experimenting with sound damn good right now with the cap choices. I fear I can only make the sound worse with more cap substitutions. I will do exactly that at some point, but I'm trying not to fix what isn't broken for now


----------



## Rico67

choose Voltage and uf rating have a sense.
 but as you say, there are a lot of value for stock caps wich depend of the trade.
 so, my question was to choose the best compromise between values and trade.


----------



## Jon L

Mundorf Silver/Gold Capacitor






 Mostly I have been comparing the Mundorf Silver/Gold with VCap Teflons, and this has been a tough one to get a handle on. 

 This may be a good time to concede that above a certain level, various great capacitors are not particularly "better," but rather akin to looking at the same object under subtly different lighting conditions and vantage points. VCap Teflons and Mundorf Silver/Gold share many sound qaulities, especially jet-black, noise-free background from which subtlest details seem to naturally emerge. Presentation of both are so natural and non-attention-seeking that both may come across as bland or boring when compared to certain capacitors with stronger personalities. 

 Long-term living with the caps, however, confirms the greatness of both caps b/c music remains inviting, refined, and eminently enjoyable, as opposed to fatiguing, wearing thin, and distracting. 

 Since audiophiles tend to obsess over the last 5-10% of differences, I will mention that Silver/Gold has a bit richer presentation from top-to-bottom with a bit creamier textures and a bit closer imaging. As one can imagine from this description, Silver/Gold doesn't *quite* seem to be as Nth-degree clean as VCaps but renders more proportion of recordings more tasty. 

 I do not believe detail resolution is any less than VCaps, but a tiny bit more harmonic "bloom" over the notes makes music both sexier and less pellucid at the same time. Some people will absolutely love this quality and call Silver/Gold much "better" than VCaps while others will absolutely declare VCaps to be the better cap for the same reasons. To throw more wrench into the equation, the optimal tube set for one cap is NOT the best set for the other cap and vice versa. Such is life.

 I am also unable to directly compare Mundorf Silver/Gold to Mundorf Silver/Oil at this time due to my system configuration, but my preliminary sense is that the two are not all that different sounding, though the small amount of gold compound mixed with silver does seem to add just a wee bit extra harmonic richness and warmth. To be continued.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


 ...I am also unable to directly compare Mundorf Silver/Gold to Mundorf Silver at this time due to my system configuration, but my preliminary sense is that the two are not all that different sounding, though the small amount of gold compound mixed with silver does seem to add just a wee bit extra harmonic richness and warmth. To be continued. 
 

this is a fantastic read, thank you for sharing it with us. btw, can you give
 more specific set up info.? like which amp and where the caps were implemented. thanks.


 second question, Jon L...compared to the mundorf silver in oil does the silver/gold
 lean one way or the other, or are they both relatively "neutral" in respect to
 the audible spectrum? i've read somewhere that users of the silver/gold 
 experienced slightly better HF retrieval at the cost of the lower freqs...but
 i should add that the other comparison was done on speakers. am interested
 to know if you share this conclusion.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is a fantastic read, thank you for sharing it with us. btw, can you give
 more specific set up info.? like which amp and where the caps were implemented. thanks.


 second question, Jon L...compared to the mundorf silver in oil does the silver/gold
 lean one way or the other, or are they both relatively "neutral" in respect to
 the audible spectrum? i've read somewhere that users of the silver/gold 
 experienced slightly better HF retrieval at the cost of the lower freqs...but
 i should add that the other comparison was done on speakers. am interested
 to know if you share this conclusion._

 

I added some more system info in the first post:

 "Mostly I am comparing these in coupling capacitor duty in a couple of amps, Almarro A205a MkII and Bottlehead Paramour I. Both amps are used to drive my headphones and speakers, mainly Headphile modded Sennheiser HE60 electrostats (via SRD7 MkII), AKG K1000, and my custom speakers (picture link here http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=349&pos=2)."

 Again, I haven't done detailed comparison of Silver/Gold vs. Silver Mundorfs, but I can tell you Silver/Gold has *VERY* authoritative bass quality and quantity!

 All the caps I report to admire are *close enough* neutral with none that can be proven to be absolutely neutral b/c of system/personal preferences and expectations if you know what I mean. 

 I still have other caps I need to try, namely Sonicap Platinum caps and Relcap polystyrenes. But first let me enjoy some music for awhile


----------



## Luminette

nice, finally, some comparative impressions of the mundorf gold/silver's! Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Considering using these over v-caps for my (trans)portable cap dock in use with an iMod


----------



## Jon L

Every time I change something significant in my system, I try to go through my tube collection again so that I don't miss out on that "Magic combination." 

 It turns out Mundorf Silver/Gold LOVES Ei EL84, which I previously thought was very "nice" but not as synergistic as some other tubes, esp. Russian NOS 6pi14pi-EB, which I also preferred as more transparent than Amperex, Telefunken, Valvo, Mullard, etc.

 Well, Ei EL84 just sounds impossibly transcendental with Mundorf Silver/Gold in the amp. The highs and midrange just opens up with refined sparkle that's not smoothed-over at all, which is my kind of sound. This combo far and away is the vest best my Almarro has sounded


----------



## dud-maestro

Congratulations for an excellent overview of the various caps. I would appreciate very much if you could detail how you connect the caps and resistor for burning-in and the "value" of the resistor used. Can you also include electrolytic caps in the "circuit" ?

 As a newbie to audio forums (this is my first post), I am frequently amused by the rude, biased or prejudiced comments of some loud-mouthed, self-annointed "experts" who riducule the views of others. To them I say - we can do without morons like you ! You can argue till the cows come home but ultimately the sound will depend on the entire system's components and personal taste. A system is as good as it's weakest link ! On the other hand, I am heartened by the large number of genuine helpful contributors. 


 Cheers


----------



## Jon L

Mundorf Zn Capacitor






 After a long love affair with Mundorf Silver/Oil, circumstances forced my hand to try the Mundorf Zn Tin Foil capacitor. 

 Some well-respected modders recommend the Mundorf Zn as one of the "most neutral" cap out there, regardless of cost, including Allen Wright of VSE (Vacuum State Electronics) fame. 

 Considering the Mundorf Zn costs less than 1/6th of their top-of-range silver/gold & oil, I was hoping this cap would turn out to be the giant-killer that saves our day and pocketbooks. 

 The good news. This cap has incredible "low-loss" sound. One gets the impression every little detail comes through and that musical speed does not get impeded. Bass is taught, punchy, and treble extension soars; midrange seems linear. Its sound signature is what many audiophiles would think of when words like "neutral, detailed, honest, etc" are used, and they would be right, uh..sort of. 

 The bad news. Compared to an exquisite cap like Mundorf silver/oil, what is not coming through as well is the harmonic beauty of the music, the "soul" if you will: overtones upon overtones gently bubbling to the surface as the singer sings the words and the trumpet makes those aching notes. 

 In addition, each instrument/voice does not seem as developed 3-D wise. Through Zn, they seem more 2-dimensional and "flat." Combined with its more dry (less bloomy) presentation, there is less involvement.

 So I have mixed feelings about Mundorf Zn. Its sound is technically superior and "uncolored," an order of magnitude better than pretty much any other "cheap" cap you can buy. If I were designing/building a transparent preamp, I can see using the Zn in many places, judiciously mixing them with tube magic elsewhere to come out with supreme results. If you have a preamp/amp that's more dry and matter-of-fact to begin with, I would advise against the Zn. 

 Actually, I think the Zn may lend itself incredibly well as bypass caps in speaker crossovers due to its qualities. I'll get to that eventually.


----------



## Pars

Nice and useful writeup so far. Any plans on testing Dynamicaps? That is what I still think I will use for coupling caps in my Counterpoint pre...


----------



## johnsonad

OP any plans to try the new Gold/Silver/Oil caps? They are much more expensive but advertised as the best they have ever made


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnsonad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OP any plans to try the new Gold/Silver/Oil caps? They are much more expensive but advertised as the best they have ever made 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hey, my funds are not limitless! I may have to sell some of my more expensive caps off before buying even more expensive caps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All this just to "try"...

 If anyone wants to loan me some caps to test then return, I'm all for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Having said that, I really want to get to the Sonicap Platinums sitting on my floor soon, as well as Relcap RT's...


----------



## piotr z

You're doing incredible job - thanks


----------



## Jon L

Sonicap Platinum Teflon Capacitor







 In order to prepare for the Sonicap Platinum, I actually reinstalled the VCap Teflon in place of Mundorf Zn in order to get used to the VCap again for awhile before popping in the Sonicap, which was running on the Cap break-in apparatus at the same time. 

 In short, the Sonic Craft website's description of its sound is pretty accurate:
 "It is very fast, but full and rich. The presentation is ultra smooth without loss of detail, focus, or dynamics."

 In direct comparison to VCap Teflons, SP (Sonicap Platinum) *was* a bit richer and a smidge creamier. We're talking about somewhat subtle differences, but SP was definitely a bit denser, darker, therefore subjectively a wee bit smoother through the midranges. Some will almost recognize a bit of this as found in a good paper-in-oil cap, minus the treble rolloff or bass slowness, of course. 

 The VCap still does come across as a teeny bit more transparent and lit-up, and what's somewhat special about the VCap is the fact it sounds *consistently* transparent/lit-up throughout its ranges, especially in the critical upper-midrange to low-treble transition; there's no peaks or bumps here even though the whole range is better lit-up. 

 With SP, even though everything else seems a bit smoother and richer, there seems to my ears a very narrow band, somewhere at the highest end of female vocal sibilance to top-hats, that appears to have the tiniest bit more "sparkle" than the rest of the range. I only mention it b/c it is a difference.

 Overall, SP is a nice alternative to the VCap teflons and costs less. Just like anything in audio, some systems will synergize better with one or the other. For those who have listened and think VCap is a bit too literal or "sterile" (I don't personally) in their systems, Sonicap Platinum is a viable choice.


----------



## slwiser

I have not noticed but if this is not sticky it should be.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have not noticed but if this is not sticky it should be._

 

Thanks for the words. 

 Anyhow, it might be worth mentioning at this point that despite breaking in the caps for days, cumulatively for weeks sometimes, there is *STILL* roughness and brightness for hours after the solder has dried. 

 Basically 100% of the caps have displayed this behavior, and I suspect this is at least partly due to the new solder joints themselves settling down and the caps readjusting to the new electrical and mechanical environment. Thankfully, this roughness/brightness has always gone away within hours. 

 I just installed well-burned-in Relcap RTX caps, and it was a painful experience for several hours, but I'm glad I didn't follow my impulse to take them out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just something to note for all you impatient cap rollers.


----------



## PhaedrusX

would there be any reasons not to use sockets on the board for easier rolling of caps?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhaedrusX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_would there be any reasons not to use sockets on the board for easier rolling of caps?_

 

Well, there is really no special "sockets" for cap rolling out there, especially ones that would fit inside usual equipment.

 If one had a lot of space and wanted a temporary socket, he can try to install some terminal strips like Tempoelectric did like this:






 But any additional sockets/distance/metal contacts/solder *can* change the sound, so I prefer to just solder in the caps where they are supposed to be, old school.


----------



## Jon L

Relcap RTX






 This tin foil/polystyrene cap has been around a long time, and many designers and modders swear by their use as bypass caps. Some more recent cap comparisons also confirm they are very good coupling caps by themselves. 

 The RTX had some big shoes to fill, replacing Sonicap Platinums, and I must say they did pretty well against the heavy hitters. 

 *Warning* Even after a long break-in, these caps sounded horrid for some hours after being soldered in, sounding grainy on top and anemic in the bass. Do not evaluate them without a long workout after solder dries.

 After dust settled, these turned out to be very balanced top-to-bottom with no gross errors or peaks. Extension of frequency extremes was impressive, and the level of resolution was high without highlighting upper-midrange or upper-bass.

 Compared to Sonicap Platinums, RTX didn't sound as dense and rich in the midrange, but it still managed to sound subjectively neutral, akin to some of those high-class red wines that's on the dry side as opposed to fruity and colorful. At a bit over half the price of Sonicap Platinums, these are a nice bargain in the cap world, but I wouldn't use too many in equipment that tends toward dryness in the midrange.

 What really put the RTX in perspective was when I switched in Mundorf silver/gold again. Suddenly, I had beautifully colorful (but not colored) midrange that "popped" with effortless midrange dynamics. Musical textures just pulled your ears in, and that often-yearned-for "magic" was in the air. Mundorf silver/gold is almost three times the price of RTX, unfortunately, so save your pennies.


----------



## PhaedrusX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, there is really no special "sockets" for cap rolling out there, especially ones that would fit inside usual equipment.

 If one had a lot of space and wanted a temporary socket, he can try to install some terminal strips like Tempoelectric did like this...

 But any additional sockets/distance/metal contacts/solder *can* change the sound, so I prefer to just solder in the caps where they are supposed to be, old school._

 

thanks for the informative reply.
 if there is clean contact with the circuit, i'm not sure how a socket/ strip in between a component and the PCB might change the sound any more than, say, a few extra cms of hook-up wire would. but having said that, i can appreciate and understand the "better safe then sorry" approach.
 look forward to more impressions.


----------



## Jon L

Mundorf silver/gold vs. silver/oil











 I finally did some proper comparisons between these 2 capacitors, and while they do share the musical Mundorf house sound, their differences are significant enough that one should not automatically think a system synergistic with one will be synergistic with the other.

 There are some who have concluded silver/gold is "not as good" as silver/oil, but I would not agree with that conclusion. However, they have sufficiently differing presentations and gestalt that yes, one "may" definitely prefer silver/oil in a given setup/preferences. 

 One word I would use to describe the main difference is "liquidity." While both are remarkably smooth, silver/oil has more liquidity, not enough to obscure detail but just enough to "massage" recordings that are not perfect. As a result, I am able to enjoy more percentage of my recordings through silver/oil, which liquifies a few percent of the upper-midrange/low-treble spittiness and hardness inherent in many recordings. Because silver/oil makes this range less noticeable, the high treble/air becomes relatively more noticeable, but upon closer analysis, the silver/gold has just as much upper end extension and air. 

 So once again, I still think silver/oil is the cap that most likely will have me keep listening to my (non-perfect) music collection instead of tweaking, but if your system is already leaning towards liquidity, silver/gold may be a better choice.


----------



## Luminette

very nice comparison with the silver vs gold/silver

 it is appreciated


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_very nice comparison with the silver vs gold/silver

 it is appreciated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks. Due to the generosity of an Audio Circle member, I now have Russian FT3 and K72 teflon caps on the burner.

 Notice how HUGE they are


----------



## fordgtlover

^

 Should be interesting.


----------



## Phraxos

Hey does anyone happen to know what's in the ALO portable Vcap? This one: 

http://aloaudio.com/store/catalog/images/vcap-new.jpg

 I'm not sure if they're OIMP or Teflon, it's been indicated to me both ways. Also, anyone know how much one of these go for (nowadays and when they were sold)?

 Thanks


----------



## Ferrari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. Due to the generosity of an Audio Circle member, I now have Russian FT3 and K72 teflon caps on the burner.
 Notice how HUGE they are 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, these Russian teflon are huge but the constructions are really excellent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
 Looking forward to read your impressions about these Russian teflon caps.


----------



## AudioCats

great thread, and it is getting more and more interesting!
 Can't wait to read the comparison results on the russian teflon.


----------



## Jon L

*Russian FT3 Teflon Capacitor*







 I must first thank an Audio Circle member Gary (“GBB”) for loaning me the FT3 and K72 caps. Otherwise, I would have had to buy on eBay and wait a month for delivery. The FT3 is a great cap sonically, but its sheer size and weight can present a challenge in cramped spaces. Its lack of traditional leadouts also forces one to make his own; I had to solder some leftover leads as seen in the photo above. 

 This cap is exceedingly smooth, smooth, yet resolved like only teflon caps are. This evenness and lack of glare, grain, or bite can be disadvantageous for FT3, especially in quick cap-rolling A-B comparisons, where a cap with a more insistent personality will attract more attention and spotlight. However, after living with this cap for a long time, one has to marvel at its consistently musically-revealing nature and tonality. It doesn’t wear its detail resolution on its sleeve, yet when one chooses to listen for it, the extension in both directions are impressive as well as actual detail. Its trick is having equal resolution from top-to-bottom, so the whole is well, wholesome. It conveys music in a flowing, suave tonality and is the crooner of the cap crowd. 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Russian K72 Teflon Capacitor*






 Probably the most hyped AND maligned cap out there. Some praise it while others despise it and write it off completely. It is my understanding that FT3 and K72 caps are internally the same. Here is an internal picture of K72, courtesy of the internet.






 FT3 uses aluminum casing and thin tabs as leadouts while K72 uses thicker steel casing with solid poles as leadouts. FT3 is glass-encapsulated while K72 is hermetically sealed, and due to the thick steel case, K72 is even heavier than FT3. 

 One huge caveat to comparing K72 and FT3 is that the largest value of K72 available seems to be 0.056uF, while FT3 is predominantly available in 0.1 and 0.22uF. My loaned K72 was the customary 0.056uF and FT3 0.22uF, and yes, the larger cap is “supposed” to be more bassy. Lo and behold, FT3 does seem to be a little richer in the bass region; however, it was not a huge difference, and there is no way to tell how much of this is due to the uF difference or just the way these caps sound. This cannot be answered today b/c K72 does not come in 0.1 or 0.22uF and FT3 does not come in 0.056uF. 

 These caps do sound similar, but after doing A-B-A-B comparisons using music with and without bass, I can say they do have differences. K72 adds a pinch of spice and “kick” to the proceedings. Middle midrange to somewhere in upper midrange seems to sound bit more obviously “detailed” with K72; this leads to a little more tension in the listener’s shoulders when playing poorly-recorded material, i.e. the vast majority of today’s compressed and hotly EQ’d modern fare. Some may even call it extra grain, glaze, or hardness compared to FT3’s relative softer rendering. However, with clean recordings, I can see some people even preferring K72 for its more assertive, forward stance. Combining that little highlighting with a bit tighter control, K72 comes across as hair more dynamic and fun. Which Teflon cap should you purchase? Well, both are cheap enough that I think you should try both, but do consider if you wish for a little more smoothness vs. forwardness from current setup. 

 P.S. When you tap the stiff steel case of K72, you can hear and feel a hollow “ping” resonance. I tried applying a strip of EAR Isodamp material, covering about 1/3 of the surface area, which attenuated the sparkle and “detail” just a tad. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but depending on your tastes, a bit of damping may have a role.
 -------------------------------------------------------------
 Are You a Contender?

 So, are these Russian teflon caps as “good” as the V Caps, Sonicap Teflons? Well, I know some say no, but I don’t know how to answer that. 

 In direct comparisons, VCap teflon does come across as having the highest highs and the most linear response across the range. It paints the sonic scape with the finer brush, and its sonic signature reminds me of my beloved Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate tubes for you tube people. On the other hand, the FT3 and especially K72 have a more forward, bolder midrange presentation, albeit with a bit less refinement and a bit bolder lower midrange/upper bass range. I enjoy listening to deep male vocals a bit more through the Russian caps while VCaps absolutely rule with high-pitched female vocals and instruments that live in the same range and above, resolving them with the finest of the surgical scalpel yet without any harshness. 

 I really don’t feel all these caps should be given concrete rankings, like number 1, 2, 3, etc. Let’s just say music can sound glorious with most good caps mentioned in this article, often coming down to tweaking tubes, interconnects, power cords, etc.


----------



## Phraxos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Phraxos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey does anyone happen to know what's in the ALO portable Vcap? This one: 

http://aloaudio.com/store/catalog/images/vcap-new.jpg

 I'm not sure if they're OIMP or Teflon, it's been indicated to me both ways. Also, anyone know how much one of these go for (nowadays and when they were sold)?

 Thanks_

 

Anybody?


----------



## tourmaline

I'll throw in some caps too, since i have been cap rolling as well, not as much as Jon L but some special caps indeed.






 Black gate:

 nx and nh type of caps are very clean and have the lowest noisefloor of any cap around. They are the perfect cap in any powersection with clean presentation. They are notorious for a long burn in period though and it's true, as i found out. it takes at least 300-500 hours to burn them in.

 On the right are the CUSTOM made silver signal caps.
 These caps are custom made and supposedly are an alternative for the very expensive audio note silver caps. The guys that make this cap say they actually prefer this one to the audio note silver cap! They are audio note dealer as well, so they should know.

 It is made of pure silver strips, with a secret insulation material topped with beeswax...The square form should prevent any distortion, as conventional round caps have.

 This cap is like buying a different higher end amp, bigger soundstage in every direction, clean yet natural sound, positioning is absolutely pinpoint...

 I would place it in the same ballpark as the Vcap teflons and the audio note silvers. Not cheap though but much more affordable then audio note silvers!

 Another audio goeroe compared those caps with other caps and called this indeed a very special cap.

 The drawback is that they are especially designed as coupling caps in tube gear! There is also a limited number of values available, other then that, wholeheartedly recommended.

 Silver signals as coupler caps:





 VenHaus oimp:

 Good clear and reasonably clean cap. Nice deep and tight bass, goes down deeper then most caps. Everything they say about this cap is true. Also takes a long burn in period, about 300 hours at least. Probably the best companion for the VenHaus Vcap teflons?!


 As for solens:

 cheap caps that sound a bit constrained and grainy...even bypassed nowhere near the black gates or silver signals...

 Solens are usually used by manufacturers because they are cheap and available in large quantities. I would recommend to get rid of them in any critical path.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Phraxos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody?_

 

Standard probably the Vcap oimps...as in the idock. There could have been an option to go for the more expensive Vcap teflons though...would cost ya even more.


----------



## Ferrari

*Jon L*, thanks for sharing the impressions. I cannot describe the sound the way you did, but I do recognize the sound characteristics of these Teflon caps you wrote in your post. Totally agreed with your comment about the size and weight.
 I have tried these caps in several amps in the past and I found them very good in terms of neutrality, resolutions and details. 
 Personally I prefer the FT3 (a bit more laid back) over the K72.

 As far I know, K72 does exist(ed) in 0.1uF (have used it in the past) and FT3 was also available in 0.47uF (the silver one in the pic below).


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The drawback is that they are especially designed as coupling caps in tube gear! There is also a limited number of values available, other then that, wholeheartedly recommended._

 

Well.... What kind of $ are we talking about for say 0.1uF of these silver coupling caps? I will try anything if my wallet will let me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ferrari* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Jon L*, 
 As far I know, K72 does exist(ed) in 0.1uF (have used it in the past) and FT3 was also available in 0.47uF (the silver one in the pic below)._

 

Yeah, I heard K72 in 0.1uF exists; it's just that none of the usual Russian/European sources seem to have any left. The K72 especially has to be securely tied down; otherwise, its weight will pull itself off the solder over time.


----------



## Kabeer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Phraxos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody?_

 

I think they are 6.8microf OPIMP, its definatly OPIMP, but I dont own one so not 100% sure on the value.
 There was an expensive special edition which also ran two smaller teflon v-caps alongside the OPIMP's.


----------



## Phraxos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kabeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think they are 6.8microf OPIMP, its definatly OPIMP, but I dont own one so not 100% sure on the value.
 There was an expensive special edition which also ran two smaller teflon v-caps alongside the OPIMP's._

 

Thanks Kabeer, any idea on cost?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well.... What kind of $ are we talking about for say 0.1uF of these silver coupling caps? I will try anything if my wallet will let me.



 Yeah, I heard K72 in 0.1uF exists; it's just that none of the usual Russian/European sources seem to have any left. The K72 especially has to be securely tied down; otherwise, its weight will pull itself off the solder over time._

 

There is no 0,1 ufarad and the only way to obtain those caps is via me, so i can pick them up locally. They are not for sale via websale or anything.

 The russians are in general BIG......most of the time you need such a metal capholder to screw them down secure because of the size and weight.

 Black Stuart also tried out those russians and he liked the ft3 best.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kabeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think they are 6.8microf OPIMP, its definatly OPIMP, but I dont own one so not 100% sure on the value.
 There was an expensive special edition which also ran two smaller teflon v-caps alongside the OPIMP's._

 


 OPIMP do you mean the oimp Vcap?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 In that case the teflon caps were used as bypass caps....

 link to the pricing of the vcap oimps:
V-Cap Oil Capacitors

 scroll down and you'll see on the right pricing for the 6.8ufarad cap!

 6.8ufarad for vcap tftf (teflon) would cost you an arm and a legg! hence, they only go to 3.3ufarad!

 3.3ufarad would set you back 700 dollars! For one cap!

 That is why the tftf (teflon) caps are mostly used as coupler caps in tube amps( smaller values) and/or as bypass caps (also smaller values) for larger caps in amps!


----------



## Jon L

The Russian K40y paper-in-oil caps are up next. Just for size comparisons, the following caps are of the same value, starting from top: Russian FT3 Teflon, Russian K40y PIO, Mundorf Silver/Oil.


----------



## AudioCats

It is getting more and more interesting!

 Is it possible for you to do some comparison between the Russian PIO cap vs. US PIO caps such as VitaminQ? please please....


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Russian K40y paper-in-oil caps are up next. Just for size comparisons, the following caps are of the same value, starting from top: Russian FT3 Teflon, Russian K40y PIO, Mundorf Silver/Oil.




_

 

Holy....and i thought the mundorfs where already quite big...


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is getting more and more interesting!

 Is it possible for you to do some comparison between the Russian PIO cap vs. US PIO caps such as VitaminQ? please please...._

 

I really can't keep buying more caps, but if somebody wants to let me borrow a pair of Vit Q's, I'd be happy to compare..


----------



## AudioCats

what is your tester's voltage requirement? I have some .22uf coming, but they are only 100v DC rated. If that is high enough I can send a pair over.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is your tester's voltage requirement? I have some .22uf coming, but they are only 100v DC rated. If that is high enough I can send a pair over._

 

He was asking me for 500 volt versions, so i guess 100 volts isn't nearly enough.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He was asking me for 500 volt versions, so i guess 100 volts isn't nearly enough._

 

That's right. I've got some 100V versions myself..


----------



## Jon L

*Russian K40y Paper-In-Oil Capacitor*







 I must thank “Bob B” and “Les Lemmars” for kindly loaning me these K40y caps. After the usual rocky burn-in ritual, this PIO cap settled into a confident, natural sounding device. There are some audiophiles who rank these PIO caps as the best of the Russian military caps, including the FT-3 and K72 teflon caps. I may agree with this sentiment when it comes to utter naturalness and ease of presentation as well as the lack of a subtle “plastic” sound, which of course all plastic (film) caps have. 

 Gladly, this PIO cap did not have an overly dark, laid-back sound some people may expect of PIO caps. The important midrange energy was quite forceful and engaging as well as richly harmonic. The rendering of textures was most reminiscent of a good vinyl setup, which is a good thing; and detail resolution was not lacking, either, but the extreme “air” on top was not as beautifully alive as with VCap teflons. Speaking of teflons, the only real reservation I have about K40y is in the bass. The VCap Teflon, K72, FT3, Sonicap Platinum all seem to have a tighter control over basslines with sharper leading edges and snappier decay. K40y’s bass is more woody, richer, but just shy of the vise-grip crunch, so if you’re a death-metal or electronica fan, K40y may not get you to the promised land. 

 Overall, I really enjoyed the K40y. Its raison d’tere falls squarely in the critical midrange, where tons of texture, bloom, and natural detail anchor the music without that subtle synthetic feel of many other caps. Although the voices aren’t brightly spotlit, there is a magical highlighting and intensification without turning bright. 

 Dare I dream of oil-impregnated foamed-teflon silver-foil capacitor…?
 -----------------------------------
*Vishay Roederstein MKP-1839 Metalized Polypropylene Capacitor*






 Audio Circle member “slbender” was kind enough to send me some less-than-exotic caps to evaluate, including the Vishay MKP-1839. His view is that most caps of similar construction, e.g. metallized poly, should sound very similar, no matter the brand or price. This was a good exercise for me because it helped with the “Big Question” that must be lurking in the minds of many audiophiles: are these expensive, exotic capacitors worth it? 

 Vishay MKP-1839 is the axial version of the more famous Vishay Roederstein MKP1837 (a.k.a. ERO MKP1830), which is touted as a good bypass cap, and represents a well-made, inexpensive metallized poly cap. And as it turns out, it also sounds good as a coupling cap. Upon casual listening from a casual house guest, for example, it is unlikely he will jump up and down and scream, “Put back that other capacitor X ASAP!”

 MKP-1839 sounds pretty well-balanced, without obvious peaks or valleys, and pleasant; it is less hard-sounding than, say Solens. In fact, one can only wish manufacturers would use caps like MKP-1839 in their cheaper, generic audio gear. So, why should you pay more for your cap?

 The most important difference between MKP and some of the better caps is the weight behind the notes. I’m not talking about bass weight or warmth but the fully fleshed-out, 3-dimensional harmonic energy behind each note, be it in treble, mid, or bass. Lacking this, soprano, chime, flute can sound just 2-dimentional and thin, failing to fully make you believe. 

 The other significant difference is in dynamics. The MKP doesn’t sound too lacking until you compare to the better caps. A “pop” or “thwack” via MKP sounds like a fighter who is punching to save his neighbor’s life whereas via a better cap, he sounds like he’s punching to save his own life. Similar difference in microdynamics as well; better caps simply let the small nuances and subtleties to bubble to the surface with easier effervescence and life. 

 I still don’t believe any of this truly answers the question whether exotic caps are worth it because the answer will depend on one’s gear, tastes, resolution level of the system, musical choice, pocketbook status, and simply how crazy you are. Time to enjoy the music, either way, any way…


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 snip

 Dare I dream of oil-impregnated foamed-teflon silver-foil capacitor…?

 snip_

 

I've put some little FT-1 teflon caps in parallel with some K40s. So far .... I like them a lot.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've put some little FT-1 teflon caps in parallel with some K40s. So far .... I like them a lot._

 

What values of each? The big question is, does that combo have the ultra-defined, razor-sharp bass of teflon alone?


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What values of each? The big question is, does that combo have the ultra-defined, razor-sharp bass of teflon alone?_

 

This is on my new Bijou. In its standard confiuration it has 470uf electrolytic output caps bypassed by 1uf polypropylene caps. I have installed 0.1uf K40 and 0.01uf FT-1 caps in parallel with the poly cap. 

 I previously had the 1uf poly cap paralleled with a .22uf K75 russian cap. While the bass was very nice, the highs were lacking.

 With the current combination, I feel that the bass might be lacking a little in punch rather than range, but the highs extend to the sky and are crystal clear.

 This weekend I will replace the 1uf polypropylene caps with some 1uf K40 and parallel those with the same 0.1uf K40 and 0.01uf FT-1 caps. I'll report back after I do this.

 UPDATE:
 The 1uf K40, 0.1uf K40, 0.01uf FT-1 parallel combination sounds really nice (to my ears, of course). No missing bottom end, and mids and highs all seem present and accounted for. I'll see how this combination goes over the next week or so.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What values of each? The big question is, does that combo have the ultra-defined, razor-sharp bass of teflon alone?_

 

The venhaus oimps go deep as well, well defined good bodied bass.


----------



## dweekie

Most of my favorite budget caps were tested in the diyaudio Tripath Input Coupling Cap thread, where I donated some lesser known caps. I can donate my favorite Epcos MKV B25834 oil caps (3.3uf), but the only stock available is from Germany. I wonder if it's a good idea to test caps that aren't readily available, but if there is interest, I'll pass them on. If people are willing to pay V-Cap prices, then getting these shipped from Germany isn't all that expensive in comparison. Let me know.


----------



## AudioCats

great work Jon L, this thread made me bought some FT-3 teflons.... and they are indeed really good. A couple of questions though:
 * how long do these FT3 teflons take to burn-in? 
 * How do these "rather inexpensive" teflons compare with similar priced caps, such as Mundorf Silver/Oil and Silver/Gold? 
 (the current FT3 price on ebay is $8/0.22uf after shipping, so about $40/uf. Mundorf Silver/oil is roughly $50, pretty close).


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_* how long do these FT3 teflons take to burn-in? 
 * How do these "rather inexpensive" teflons compare with similar priced caps, such as Mundorf Silver/Oil and Silver/Gold? 
 (the current FT3 price on ebay is $8/0.22uf after shipping, so about $40/uf. Mundorf Silver/oil is roughly $50, pretty close)._

 

It's hard to give an exact number of hours, but I would say listen to them for at least a couple of weeks before deciding. As far as whether FT3 is as good as Mundorf's, all I can say after all these months is that they all sound differently excellnet. 

 BTW, this whole cap comparison made publication on enjoythemusic!
Capacitor Musings Article By Jon L DIY Audio Kits Reviews

 That's not the end, though, since I now have some more interesting caps to test, including Epcos polypropylene in oil, Dynamicap, liquid-teflon injected Russian K72 caps, Penta Labs teflon caps, etc. More to be posted in the coming weeks


----------



## Jon L

*Epcos (Siemens Matsu****a) MKV B25834 polypropylene in oil capacitor*






 Epcos was founded by Siemens Matsu****a, who sold all its interests in 2006. MKV B25834 is a polypropylene in oil cap like the Siemens MKV radial capacitor talked about previously. Mundorf silver/oil also happens to be polypropylene in oil, so it was not a great surprise that Epcos sounded somewhat similar to Mundorf silver/oil when directly substituted in Mundorf’s place. Not that they sounded the same, mind you, but both shared a sense of liquidity and grace, which helped music just flow effortlessly. 

 Compared to silver/oil, Epcos had a bit more richness to voices and even more apparent smoothness in the upper-midrange region, but it conceded some sheer resolution and attack. Silver/oil sounded more like a “modern” film capacitor while Epcos leaned more in the direction of paper-in-oil caps without overt darkness or lack of resolution. I was especially glad to observe Epcos not to possess overly rounded or slow bass like some paper-in-oils can. 

 The Epcos, not surprisingly, sounds VERY much like the Siemens MKV polypropylene in oil capacitor I described earlier. Both sound balanced, if not extraordinarily extended or obviously “airy” up top. Human voices have fluidity, richness, and sparkling liveliness that’s so endearing. If you are a die-hard Teflon or polystyrene fan, you will likely call these poly oil caps a bit slower and not as lit-up, but the fans of the poly oils will call it the opposite. 

 A great strategy is to use the Epcos with something like Russian K72 teflon cap somewhere else in the component. K72’s enthusiastic, bold, slightly upper-midrange-centric sound signature complements the ease of Epcos very well while lending the whole package a dollop of Teflon resolution. This combo sounds mighty nice, and I must thank “dweekie” for pointing me to these Epcos capacitors.

 -----------------------------------------

*Fluorinert-Injected Russian K72 Teflon capacitor*






 Fluorinert is an electrically insulating, inert perfluorocarbon fluid developed by 3M as electronics coolant that some have called “liquid teflon.” These K72 caps were injected with Fluorinert by “Serengetiplains,” who was gracious enough to let me try them. Fluorinert K72 and regular K72 do sound different, but not night-and-day different. After all, K72 possesses a very unique and distinct sound one can recognize from a mile away. 

 What Fluorinert does seem to do is smooth out the upper ranges somewhat while subduing the vividness and spice a dash. For those who feel K72 is way too forward and brash for their tastes (I don’t...much), this will bring a welcome change, especially if your system has too much sibilance with the stock K72. The changes brought on by Fluorinert remind me of the sort of changes one hears when applying damping material to equipment chassis. In fact, the changes are in the similar direction as when I applied EAR isodamp material to the outside of the K72, though Fluorinert seems to have even greater effect. 

 There are two issues with Fluorinert K72. One, it is not commercially available, so you have to either DIY it yourself or ask someone to make and sell it to you. Second, as one may guess from my description, Fluorinert does decrease the apparent upper-air sparkle and a certain “flair” of the stock K72 somewhat. If your personal tastes or your equipment fancies to such personality of stock K72, then Fluorinert may not necessarily sound “better” to you, proving once again YMMV, etc.


----------



## Jon L

*Penta Labs TFT Teflon Capacitor*






 Who is Penta Labs? I’ve heard the name in the past, but mostly in relation to Penta Labs tubes. According to their website, “Penta Laboratories is a Manufacturer and Distributor of vacuum tubes, capacitors and electron tubes for Broadcast, Industrial, Marine and Avionics applications worldwide.” They also make a teflon capacitor which I am including here, but this is for general interest only as the Penta cap available to me falls somewhere between my small and large reference capacitance range. 

 In comparison to Russian Teflon capacitors, especially the K72 and Fluorinert K72, Penta initially comes across as smoother and more forgiving but also with less obvious sparkling detail and dynamic pop. However, Penta seems to take forever to “settle into” a spot after soldering (even after long burn-in before soldering), so continue listening, and one realizes certain things just sound more “right,” especially the piano and other instruments that have significant extreme high-frequency harmonic content. These seem to have finer sonic pixels compared to Russian teflons, but each pixel is not as lit-up, if you can picture that. Yet there’s no denying they have tons of resolution and purity, so the combination of supple richness and resolution forces you to keep listening to music. In fact, Penta Labs kind of reminds me of that denser, richer, more elegant school of Teflon sound possessed by Sonicap Platinum capacitors.


----------



## luvdunhill

Out of the caps you've tried, I think the Relcap RTX and RT (which perhaps you haven't tried) are my favorites for coupling. I haven't decided on a good bypass and was considering the FT-1 teflons, or my standard ROE MKP1837 / MKP1830. Any opinions on a good match with these?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Out of the caps you've tried, I think the Relcap RTX and RT (which perhaps you haven't tried) are my favorites for coupling. I haven't decided on a good bypass and was considering the FT-1 teflons, or my standard ROE MKP1837 / MKP1830. Any opinions on a good match with these?_

 

If you are a fan of RTX (Haven't tried RT) and MKP1837, it may be worth trying out the Mundorf Zn, which is quite nice and quite affordable. FT-1 teflons will certainly work well in bypass as well. 

 I just got in some smaller value FT-3 teflon caps to try as bypasses, but haven't had a chance yet..


----------



## Pars

Jon,
 Another cap you may want to take a look at are the Erse PulseX that diycable is selling now. I messed up on my cap selection for my preamp (Dynamicaps) and wound up needing larger than 1uf for the output coupling cap. I went ahead and ordered a pair of the 250V Erse 8uf and so far they sound pretty good. I'm still probably going to do the Dynamicaps for these, but at ~$4-$5 a pop, I can live with these for a bit. They also have 630V available (though nowhere near the size I need).


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jon,
 250V Erse 8uf and so far they sound pretty good. I'm still probably going to do the Dynamicaps for these, but at ~$4-$5 a pop, I can live with these for a bit. They also have 630V available (though nowhere near the size I need)._

 

Yeah, I see these Erse caps popping up a lot these days. Makes you wonder if they are as good/better (?) than another budget champion, Claritycap SA. 

 BTW, it appears Custom Capacitors Electronics makes Penta teflon, then it must use tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) film and aluminum foil, which makes perfect sense since I seem to notice a consistent sonic pattern with aluminum foil teflon caps and tin foil teflon caps, like VH Teflons. Based on that, Aura-T teflons I am currently listening to probably is tin foil... 







 *Edit*
 I am now told that Penta Labs uses tin foil, not aluminum, in their teflon capacitors, though I can't confirm for sure with Pena Labs.


----------



## Jon L

*Audience Aura-T Teflon Capacitor*






 Oh, boy, does this ever stop? It was almost easier back in the day when you basically had only one Teflon capacitor to choose from, the Relcap TFT Teflon capacitor, which is a fine capacitor. Having lived with many different Teflon capacitors, I get the impression that roughly 2 general “flavors” exist among the Teflon capacitors available today. One I would call “electrostat flavor” and the other “cone flavor” because the former group reminds me of a great electrostat speaker while the latter reminds me of a great dynamic cone speaker. Formerly, only the VH Teflon belonged to the electrostat flavor while the Russian K72, FT3, Sonicap Platinum, and Penta Labs belonged to the cone flavor. 

 Well, now the Aura-T joins the VH Teflon in the electrostat flavor. These caps set themselves apart from the others by having an almost impossibly ethereal, pure, and extended top-end with endless decay like only a good electrostat can. Sound has a see-through transparency and zero veil, and there’s not a spec of dirt, grime, grit on that window. It’s possible some people’s tastes may prefer a less see-through, more tactile density like a good dynamic speaker can provide, but there’s no question the ‘stat camp resolves more information.

 The cone flavor Teflon caps have a more forward midrange presentation compared to mid-hall perspective of VH and Aura-T. Some would call them “too forward,” but this combined with less-see-through boldness can make for some *very* involving musical fun. No, these don’t have as much forever-decaying, absolutly feather-sweet extension and elegance, but in the right setup and personal tastes, I can’t blame you if you said you preferred this school of sound. 

 Now, somebody must be wondering, “so which is better, VH or Aura-T?” First of all, I am already using the most-resolving transducer I know of (HE audio ‘stat) half an inch away from my ears to get rid of any room interactions that will muddy up evaluations using speakers. Even then, I would not bet any of my hard-earned money on reliably telling them apart most of the time. 

 If somebody had a gun to my head, I *might* mutter Aura-T may possibly have a thin hair’s worth more sparkle and VH Teflon may have gnat’s fart’s worth more midrange warmth. I’m sure to some people that hair and fart will be a big deal in their preferences, but please don’t be using language like A “blows away” B. Really…


----------



## Jon L

*Russian SSG-3 silver mica capacitor*






 These 1% tolerance silver mica capacitors are another example of overbuilt, tank-like Russian new-old-stock capacitors. The big ones like these can have more than 0.1uF capacitance fit for use in coupling duties, and indeed they are an excellent capacitor. These sound different from other capacitors such as polypropylens, polystyrenes, teflons, PIO’s, etc in that they don’t have the stereotypical polypropylene harshness, polystyrene dryness, Teflon slippery polish, or PIO roundness. Silver mica’s have a reputation for being very detailed but “bright” and lacking in bass, but these large silver mica’s had plenty of bass and NO hardness at all. Their tonal balance cannot ever be called dark because they are very airy and illuminated as if with soft white light bulbs; these are perfect for those who like open, airy top-end that’s not extra-hard or etched, perfect for recordings that have spitty, hard upper ranges. They have an effect akin to turning up the “brightness” control a notch while turning down the “contrast” a notch in terms of video displays. 

 These have such feathery, extended highs that almost makes Mundorf gold/silver seem a bit less open up top. Not bad for a $5 capacitor, so what’s the caveat? Unfortunately for the SSG-3, I’ve been listening to some of the best Teflon capacitors of late, and compared to the good teflons, the silver mica’s don’t quite have the stop-dead-in-your tracks resolution and definition, especially in the midrange. Compared to teflons, SSG-3 is a tad more laid-back and softer in the midrange, and the bass, while impactful, is not quite bounce-rain-off-the-drumskin tight. Still, I can see a lot of people being quite happy with these silver mica’s, especially if used in equipment that leans in opposite sonic directions or if your tastes cotton to the open, airy, feathery, smooth sound.


----------



## jma790

Man, those sure are a lot of nice capacitors!!
 I hope I can learn more about them


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, those sure are a lot of nice capacitors!!
 I hope I can learn more about them_

 

Hey, do you live in Costa Rica? What kind of capacitors do you guys have available in your country for audio use?


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## jma790

Thanks for your interest in my little country!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 To tell you the truth, I had never been to an electronics store to buy capacitors, but since there isn't much demand for high end pieces for electronics uses here, I would say they should be generic and cheap ones from china.
 I had bought some 3.5 mm plugs, and they just cost $.20, and that's the only one avaible!
 But, I am an Electronic Engineering student, and so I am really interested in pretty much anything regarding audio, I really hope to be able to create some amps in the future; and who knows, maybe someday I will make a fine piece of art I can share with everybody! Just... 5 more years studying... but that's the way to go!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think I would need to buy all the pieces online when I could be able to do that tough...


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## Jon L

*Dynamicap-E metalized polypropylene capacitor*






 Some believe these to be among the best metalized polypropylene caps ever made, and I might have to agree with that, if somewhat reluctantly. After all, Mundorf silver/oil and gold/silver are still technically “metalized poly” caps, and they do have a magical something that other poly caps lack, including Dynamicaps. As I have observed before with Vishay poly caps, the Mundorfs have a sense of weight and texture behind the notes, especially in the midrange that keeps music interesting and captivating over longer-term listening. The better poly caps sound balanced, detailed (though not Teflon-detailed), and all the notes are present and accounted for. This is true for Dynamicap as well, and it does one better by being probably the most neutrally balanced among the poly caps. I even dare say it sounds more neutral than something like Mundorf gold/silver or the Russian silver mica’s, so here we have a reasonably affordable capacitor that is quite uncolored, clear, sweet, yet extended. No wonder companies like Alta Vista Audio is using these caps in Counterpoint gear upgrades, not to mention VMPS offering them as upgrades in their speaker crossovers. 

 What about Auricaps? This is a tough one. One’s preferences will have a large part in this choice. Auricaps have a fuller low-midrange to upper-bass presentation compared to Dynamicaps, which makes music richer and more propulsive; they also emulate some of that midrange texturing of Mundorfs. Dynamicaps counter with subjectively more ruler-flat neutrality with less bloom and thickness, sounding cleaner and clearer. I would say consider the way your system sounds now and which direction you want to go before choosing one over the other.


----------



## Jon L

*EC MP12 mil-spec metallized polypropylene capacitor*






 EC is a military capacitor supplier, and their capacitors appear well-made and heftier than usual. Unfortunately, these do not sound as good as other, more expensive metalized polypropylene capacitors like Dynamicaps or Auricaps. In fact, this capacitor is a good example of your stereotypical metalized poly capacitor sound that many audiophiles are trying to improve upon by using other poly caps like Auricaps, Dynamicaps, and Mundorfs. 

 No, the music doesn’t suddenly sound broken or anything, but compared to Auricaps, the EC cap seems less rich, less dynamic, less lively, less clear, less involving, and flatter. Music that I know to be breathy, dynamic, and sparkling lose the magic touch. Compared to a clear cap like Dynamicap, EC cap sounds veiled as if a thin hazy layer is covering the music. Many components of reasonable cost use many caps similar to these, which is understandable given the retail pricing structure, but it would be definitely worth it to spend a few more bucks to upgrade at least the critical signal-path caps to something a bit better. For example, the well-priced Russian FT-3 Teflons really kicked it up a few notches compared to EC caps in terms of resolution, clarity, and liveliness.


----------



## fordgtlover

I just rolled set of Obbligatos in place of my previous K40s. Hmmm... it seems that the K40 had been hiding some of the upper mids and highs that have now been revealed by the Obbligato. But, the down side is that I have lost some of those wonderfully solid mids and bottom end impact that I enjoy so much in the K40
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try a few other combinations.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just rolled set of Obbligatos in place of my previous K40s. Hmmm... it seems that the K40 had been hiding some of the upper mids and highs that have now been revealed by the Obbligato. But, the down side is that I have lost some of those wonderfully solid mids and bottom end impact that I enjoy so much in the K40
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try a few other combinations._

 

Which Obbligato's, the black PIO or copper-color film cap? Anyway, I wouldn't judge the Obbligato's until you run them in for a looonnng time first.

 BTW, I do plan to try K40y's with smaller teflon bypass to see if I can get best of both worlds..


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which Obbligato's, the black PIO or copper-color film cap? Anyway, I wouldn't judge the Obbligato's until you run them in for a looonnng time first.

 BTW, I do plan to try K40y's with smaller teflon bypass to see if I can get best of both worlds.._

 

They are the (apparently quite new) brass coloured ones - The Obbligato premium. The prices are quite reasonable.

 I tried the K40 with an FT-1 teflon (the small version of the FT-3), and liked it; very solid mids and good bottom end impact.It wasn't until I installed the Obbliatos that I realised that the top end had been rolled off.

 I have now reinstalled the K40 in addition to the Obbligato. It seems to work fine, and I now have the bass and mids I like in the K40, and the highs that the Obbligatos revealed. This sounds pretty good to my ear. I'll continue to try a few other combinations of types (mostly Russian caps) and values.


----------



## AudioCats

Jon L, would you like to test some AudioCap Theta? I have some 0.22uf/600v laying around... I wonder how they compare with the RTX (since both are made by REL and use tin foil).


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jon L, would you like to test some AudioCap Theta? I have some 0.22uf/600v laying around... I wonder how they compare with the RTX (since both are made by REL and use tin foil)._

 

Why not. I actually got in some Jantzen Superior-Z Caps, which might be an interesting comparison also.


----------



## Jon L

*Jensen Copper Foil Paper-In-Oil Capacitor*





 Its reputation precedes it, and Jensen PIO capacitors are indeed excellent PIO capacitors. The word “musical” seems made for it, not by virtue of syrupy romance but by virtue of refined microdynamic texturing and tonality, which allows one to immerse in the music instead of analyzing it. If you are the type who can easily relax into music when it sounds “good” and be content, then the Jensens are perfect for you because they provide satisfying tonal color, harmonic richness, and smooth sophistication without becoming overly rolled-off, muddy, and slow. In fact, the upper-midrange to midrange has a lively character without brightness or dryness that is quite attractive indeed. 

 Compared to Russian K40y PIO, Jensen is simultaneously finer-grained yet smidge less dark, presenting music with seemingly more tonal purity and light. The Jensen difference is not huge, akin to a soufflé made with eggs beaten a little fluffier and lighter, but both taste like soufflé. On the other hand, K40y does come across a little more dynamic and denser in tone, so once again, we have choices. 

 So the oilers are great, but I am surrounded by mountains of capacitors from all around the world. Compared directly to some stupendous teflons, while not “overly” rolled-off or slow, Jensens *are* a wee bit less extended and slower, relatively speaking. The leading edges are perhaps not as sharp as a new razor, but it’s not far off. Bass definition also is not nose-to-nose with teflons or polystyrenes, but I think it’s good enough for me, especially for acoustic music. Jensens do serve up a tasty, warm, refined midrange, and if that’s one’s preference, one may even say Jensens are a better capacitor than teflons or other film caps. 

 -------------------------------------

 FT-1 2200 pF Russian Teflon Capacitors (Bypass)






 Jensens and other PIO’s are so good at what they do, it’s natural to feel the need to somehow improve them just a little where they are not state-of-the-art. I tried to accomplish this by bypassing Jensens with a small bypass Teflon capacitor, the FT-1 Russian capacitor at 2200 pF. 

 This does not completely change the sound, and the effects are subtle, but some may find them useful. The extreme treble does open up some, and triangles and chimes gain a little more definition. I don’t mean to imply the Jensens suddenly turn into Russian teflons, as they still sound mainly like Jensens. In my experience, better treble definition tends to lead to subjectively tighter bass signature, and the Jensens’ bass did firm up a trifle. 
 So have we created the perfect capacitor here? Not really. The original signature charm of Jensens does diminish by a measure, so if you loved Jensens for their billowing, grand, bloomy richness, perhaps you should leave them alone. If you are still curious, it’s always worth an experiment since these small Russian Teflon capacitors are quite cheap.


----------



## Jon L

*Russian K40y PIO Capacitor Bypassed with FT-1 Teflon Capacitor*






 After experimenting with bypassing Jensens with small teflons, I thought I would try the bypass with K40y PIO caps as well. Unlike Jensens, K40y's are very affordable, and if I could improve them just a little bit with just-as-cheap small Russian teflons, that would be something to celebrate. 

 Alas, laws of physics apparently wanted to be consistent because the results were similar to when I bypassed the Jensens. The upper ranges did extend further with added twinkle and sparkle just like with Jensens, but some of the PIO charm was lost at the same time. Once again, it turns out there is no free lunch or cheap miracles. Now, downside is not huge by any means, and many people will find this little tradeoff completely acceptable and maybe even unnoticeable, especially in systems that tended to extra bloom and richness to begin with. 

 Adding the small teflon bypass is almost like adding a supertweeter to a nice single-driver speaker. There is more air and twinkle, but some of the super coherence and earthy charm of the single-driver is lost. The degree of the loss will depend, in both cases, on the specific capacitor/tweeter used as well as the skill(and/or luck) of the implementation as usual, so if you have a lot of time on your hands and many different capacitors of numerous values, I'm sure one can rig up something basically "perfect." Maybe..


----------



## onform

Forgive me but i'm new to diy and I have a few Q on caps. how else can a 22n cap be described in uf terms. again forgive the noob..


----------



## spritzer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onform* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Forgive me but i'm new to diy and I have a few Q on caps. how else can a 22n cap be described in uf terms. again forgive the noob.._

 

1n is 0.001u so in this case 0.022uF


----------



## onform

thanks Spritzer

 I'm looking for a nice all round coupling cap for the interstage of the amp i'm planning to build, (0.022uf/100V); now money is an object so im not looking at silver/oil etc types. but I want something a little special what do you think????


----------



## onform

bump....sorry......


----------



## Jon L

Just saw your PM, in which you mentioned Wima MKP is the stock cap called for. Have you tried the Wima and not liked it? 

 If you tried Wima and wanted to change x,y,z, perhaps we can give useful recommendations, especially since I was already planning to put in some Wima MKP's soon for some "real world" sound-check.


----------



## onform

Jon
 I have not even built the amp yet, i'm trying to tie down all the various components im going to use. The amp I am planning to build think was designed with ease and cost in mind i think, i'm assuming that these wima caps are used to fit into price constraints, not really knowing a lot I am probably way out. considering these caps are the only ones in the direct signal path I just wanted something a little special. 

 I will probably try the wima's first then role in some big guns..lol..sorry

 seriously I have allways been on the fence with the likes of cap and resistor changes and want to have an opinion of my own, partly the reason i'm taking on my first build, so i can chop and change as i feel.

 I have never plucked up the courage to start modding my em pro.

 what do you think?


----------



## FallenAngel

You're better off simply building the Optimized Morgan Jones (EarMax Pro is based on this design).

 Nice thread by the way.


----------



## onform

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're better off simply building the Optimized Morgan Jones (EarMax Pro is based on this design).

 Nice thread by the way._

 

I'm quite happy with the em pro for the mean time. I think what is needed is a different design so I can run comparisons. plus the design I have chosen is a low V design...soha II, Last thing i want is to fry myself on my first build...


----------



## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onform* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm quite happy with the em pro for the mean time. I think what is needed is a different design so I can run comparisons. plus the design I have chosen is a low V design...soha II, Last thing i want is to fry myself on my first build... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You'll have fun with the SOHA2, I'm building the prototype, hoping to finish next week.


----------



## onform

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'll have fun with the SOHA2, I'm building the prototype, hoping to finish next week. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well what caps you using at c1 l/r, standard wima or something else.


----------



## Jon L

*Jantzen Superior Z-Cap*






 Jantzen Audio is a Danish company, and they make three grades of polypropylene capacitors: Z-Cap, Superior Z-Cap, and Silver Z-Cap. I am testing the Superior Z-Cap which, like the Silver Z-Cap, has been wound using a “special machine…so that the capasitors become a very tight reel. This minimizes the inner vibration and keeps microphonic effects as low as possible.” The ends appear sealed with some sort of resin to keep out moisture, a nice touch, and the overall look and feel are definitely a notch or two above the common polypropylene types. 

 There is a bit of “buzz” about Jantzen capacitors out there, and they certainly did not disappoint. Superior Z-Cap rather reminds me of Dynamicap E, which is one of my favorite polypropylene capacitors. They share a sense of evenness, balance, and coherence, which means nothing is sticking out like a sore thumb to distract you from the music. Superior-Z possesses a very smooth, flowing, mid-hall type of personality with no sense of congealing, bloat, raggedness, or bite, yet it is not lacking in detail resolution, especially when compared to something like Claritycap SA. One of its greatest attributes is the fact it’s difficult to point out things it specifically does “wrong” because it pulls off a great balancing act that serves the music. 

 Once again, it’s not fair to compare most polypropylene caps to expensive teflons, but the best of both breeds are more than capable of delivering the music. Since cost is always an issue, a top-grade polypropylene is certainly a viable way to go in my opinion.


----------



## onform

Jon how about a list, order of superiority best to not so best...Sound quality wise and a short list of attributes. You could include a price comparison maybe one value range as a guide...how about 220n..lol. Maybe even suggested uses?? 

 Then this thread could/should become a sticky


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onform* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jon how about a list, order of superiority best to not so best...Sound quality wise and a short list of attributes. You could include a price comparison maybe one value range as a guide...how about 220n..lol. Maybe even suggested uses?? 

 Then this thread could/should become a sticky_

 

That's the point. I really don't like an absolute list of "superiority" like that b/c for sombody else, it's perfectly possible for a cheap capacitor low on my list to sound "better" than my favorite caps depending on the specific position, gear, rest of system, and one's tastes. These things really should not be given a concrete score or ranking.

 Speaking of which, I've got the Wima MKP 10 630V caps in there now, and heck, one could do a lot worse..


----------



## Jon L

*WIMA MKP10 Polypropylene Capacitor*






 I was absolutely shocked when I received my WIMA MKP10 capacitors. They are HUGE as seen next to same-capacitance AudioCap Theta and Auricap in the picture. This German company supplies a lot of capacitors for many high-end companies, and I have seen many red-colored WIMA capacitors inside components; but I don’t remember them being this large. WIMA MKP10’s claim to fame is their “double-layer” construction:
 “The construction principle of the series WIMA MKP 10 consists of a non-metallized dielectric film and an carrier film metallized on both sides acting as electrode. Thanks to the metallization on both sides, the electrical conductivity is considerably improved and the contact surface between the electrodes and the schoopage layer is doubled. This results in better contact and allows for high current and pulse loading capability.”

 The reason I am even going into such detail is due to the fact its sound quality easily exceeded my jaded expectations. It sounded quite bright at first, but after settling down, it presented a nicely-detailed, airy, and sexily breathy sound. It perhaps does not have 100% of the refinement and sophistication of Dynamicap E or Jantzen Superior Z, but its slightly more forward and breathy sound is a bit more exciting and ear-grabbing. It’s not overly etched or thin-sounding, either, which you always have to watch out for in cheap metalized poly caps. I have heard some people complain WIMA lacks bass, but this was not true in my case at all, as its bass was just as good as other good poly caps. I don’t know how WIMA’s other caps sound, such as MKP4 and FKP, but the 630V MKP10 is a budget-champ!


----------



## Jon L

*AudioCap Theta Polypropylene Film and Tin Foil Capacitor*






 AudioCap Theta is constructed with polypropylene film and tin foil with gold-plated OFHC leads, and it is very reasonably priced compared to AudioCap PCU, which is polypropylene film and Copper foil and priced accordingly. I have read AudioCap Thetas being described as lean and clinical in the past, and that’s exactly how they sounded in the beginning. However, after proper break-in, these things became extraordinarily rich and warm in tone, without any wooly, syrupy sloppiness. AudioCap Thetas definitely had another notch of detail and resolution in the mid-midrange compared to even the best metallized polypropylene caps, resulting in sumptuously textured and detailed voices; however, the upper-midrange and treble also retained this rich smoothness, which in fact made them sound a touch less open and sparkling compared to metalized poly caps like WIMA. 

 The longer I listened to AudioCap Theta, I was both more charmed and frustrated at the same time. It’s densitiy of tone and authoritative texturing in the midrange was very tasty, which only highlighted its Achilles’ heel, i.e. somewhat dark and shut-in upper highs compared to the best. Hoping for luck, I tried bypassing the AudioCap Theta with FT-1 Russian teflons 1/10th it’s value. Even though both caps were burned-in, the resulting sound was initially horrid: overly bright, grating, and just amusical. 

 Knowing these things take time, even with previously used caps, I ran them for some time, and like magic, everything fell into place. The combination was at once rich, textured, and warm, yet with intact high-frequency leading edge detail and sparkle. This casserole of sorts yielded very, very satisfying results, working much better than when I bypassed oil caps with small Teflon caps. I must presume that oil caps and teflon caps are simply too different to gel coherently; combining more similar film caps really hit on something wonderful here. 

 In fact, to check my own impressions, I put back one of my expensive Teflon references; and I honestly can’t tell you I definitely prefer the teflons. The teflons still have a smidge more see-through transparency and smoother liquidity, but the Theta/teflon combo has more weight and texture behind the notes while not giving up overall resolution and punch. This combo is a definite contender in the right system.


----------



## miki166

Thanks for great capacitors review. Would you be so kind to made a review of Hovland musicap and Realcap TFT.

 Thanks in advance 
 Milos


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *miki166* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for great capacitors review. Would you be so kind to made a review of Hovland musicap and Realcap TFT.

 Thanks in advance 
 Milos_

 

I have used Hovland and Relcap TFT in the past, but I don't have any spares around right now to include in the current review. I don't feel like buying these caps again just to review because IMO there are better choices in their respective price categories.


----------



## adamus

how much of a change can expect from burn in of my obbligato interstage coupling caps. 

 They have great bass, but everythign sounds a bit plasticy, slightly squeaky (not high pitch, just slightly rubbery if that at all makes sense.....damn my lack of sound descriptives).


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how much of a change can expect from burn in of my obbligato interstage coupling caps. 

 They have great bass, but everythign sounds a bit plasticy, slightly squeaky (not high pitch, just slightly rubbery if that at all makes sense.....damn my lack of sound descriptives)._

 

Which version do you have? The black ones are the oil caps, the copper ones polypropylene film cap w/o oil, and there is a new "premium" film cap that is gold colored.

Capacitors | Diy HiFi Supply


----------



## adamus

I have the copper ones.


----------



## Luminette

V-cap OIMPs? Would be interested in


----------



## adamus

ok,update on the obbligatos. 

 either my mind is tricking me (not ruling this out) or all the plasticy sound has gone, leaving nothing but lovely pure organic sound. big slam, lovely smooth highs. 

 very impressed (bear in mind i was not impressed at all to begin with).


----------



## Jon L

*Sprague Vitamin Q PIO Capacitor*







 Sprague “Vitamin Q” capacitors are a beautiful example of how things used to be manufactured right. These capacitors are built like a tank and sport a special vitamin Q mineral oil to soak the dielectric; the overbuilt Russian oil caps have nothing on these NOS caps when it comes to build quality. Almost a cult favorite among DIYers over many years, Vitamin Q’s certainly live up to their reputation for great sound quality. 

 After the usual rough period of settling in, Vit Q’s came alive with beautiful tonal color, bags of textural contrast, and a sense of immediacy. There’s a “wetness” to its presentation that is quite beguiling, yet it’s very detailed and sparkling, definitely not polite or overly dark. If you find the Jensen copper PIO’s a little too refined and buttery smooth in your system, Vit Q’s might fit in very well instead. On the other hand, many audiophiles prefer that velvety smooth sound, in which case they will likely prefer something like Jensens. Both offer more openness and air compared to the denser sound of Russian K40y PIO’s, but all three PIO’s are capable of doing music justice with synergistic placement. 

 Previously I tried bypassing the Jensens with small Russian Teflon caps to add a litte more sparkle and contrast, but in the end I decided I prefer the Jensens by itself to preserve its own charms. I have no such desire to bypass the Vit Q because it seems to have enough contrasty sparkle already. Vit Q’s don’t sound like good polypropylene caps, Teflon caps, polystyrenes, or anything else, really, but they have a unique, involving character that’s hard not to enjoy.


----------



## uhcmos1

Those EH 300B has got to go, though. I bet my AVVT AV32B tubes would sound GREAT in that thing


----------



## AudioCats

a little info on the Russian teflons: the FT-2 and FT-3 are actually "open" type caps, they are exposed to the outside air, the film/foil are not sealed, at all, everything is just held by the outside aluminum housing. so, do not get them wet as they might fail. That said, it is also very easy to oil damp them, just put them into insulating oil of your choice and let them soak up the oil. 

 Of course you can then seal the oil impregnated caps in a tube of some kind and seal the ends with epoxy.


----------



## qusp

I'm building a VCAP dock with 3.3uf OIMP VCAPs i'm considering bypassing with either russion teflon, mundorf silver/gold/oil or VCAP TFTF in .33uf have you tried any of these combinations for output coupling?? 

 great thread BTW love it; I found it again at precisely the right time. i'll be putting the finishing touches on the dock with just OIMP in tomorrow and wanted to see how the VCAPs burnt in before choosing a bypass; but any recommendations would be much appreciated and taken into account when the time comes.

 thanks again

 BTW I dont expect you to go out and buy some caps just so you can give me advice


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm building a VCAP dock with 3.3uf OIMP VCAPs i'm considering bypassing with either russion teflon, mundorf silver/gold/oil or VCAP TFTF in .33uf have you tried any of these combinations for output coupling?? 
_

 

I haven't tried the OIMP, so I can't give any specific recommendations for bypass. Oil caps in general really do need to be tried in person, after good settling-down, and then after additional period of just letting them play without critical evaluations. Only then can you tell if they'll work in that spot. If they work great but you still wish for *just* a wee bit more openness and sparkle, it's time to try bypass caps, but it's trial and error still.


----------



## qusp

well the VCAP DIYMOD combination is well documented, with the pico as amp as well so I think i'm safe there but still. You're right I will burn them in and sit with it until something pops out at me, and i'm sure it will. they probably will need just a little sparkle to really help the pico sing; the pico already has a wonderful HF so it may be enough with just OIMP but often something will stand in the way of a strength. who nows?? As you say though; there really isn't any hard and fast rules when it comes to this stuff. with out trying said combination it's hard to really know whether it will work for you; its just a pity there's no try before you buy capacitor stores ;P


----------



## qusp

oops


----------



## ccschua

Sorry for my ignorance, when bypassing with K42Y2 russian PIO cap, is it need to consider polarity or consistent with the placement of the PIO?


----------



## deuginthesky

Nope


----------



## derekbmn

Any more info and experiences with these - Obbligato Gold Premium Caps | Diy HiFi Supply
 The price(s) are certainly right.


----------



## digger945

Yea, Obbligatto and maybe AudioPhiler(those big red axials on ebay)
 I'de like to see a Cornell Dubilier Metallized Poly Film 935/940 Series in the bunch also.
 I would pay for the caps and ship them if there was to be another big time review.


----------



## ccschua

I would like to try the Mundorf silver/oil.

 I am using the Audiospace DU2.8i. This is an integrated tube amp in push pull AB1 with about 15W output max. 

 The preamp is
 1x12AX7
 2x12AU7

 the power side is 4 x 6V6.

 Stock tubes are all audiospace (which means it is Shuguang). I have replaced the stock tubes to

 1x12AX7 -> Mullard reissue
 2x12AU7 -> CV 4003

 4 x 6V6 -> Tungsol Reissue 6V6GT.

 The sound already has some improvement.

 Next, I found the amp uses 4x0.22uF and 2 x0.1uF coupling cap (audiospace white)

 If I replace theses cap to Mundorf Silver/Oil, will I get better improvement.


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digger945* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea, Obbligatto and maybe *AudioPhiler(those big red axials on ebay)*
 I'de like to see a Cornell Dubilier Metallized Poly Film 935/940 Series in the bunch also.
 I would pay for the caps and ship them if there was to be another big time review._

 

I was looking to buy some of those. I didn't because I found some negative comments on other forums.


----------



## qusp

hey there; i'm just wondering about some caps for my gamma1 (not standard) i've installed the gamma1 in a much larger hammond case for the purpose of using much superior film caps for coupling duties. I have about 20mm height and about 30mm depth to work with for a 1uf cap and about 10-15mmx20mm for a bypass in .1uf. I realy like VCAP OIMP and TFTF and actually wanted to use a mundorf ZN or SIO but the SIo is ruled out because of size 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 there is enough room for OIMP as the 1uf but AFAIK they dont make anything in .1uf wasw thinking teflons for the bypass or if there is a really superior detailed cap that I could just use by itself that cpould fit in 23x30mm hthen perhaps I could go without the bypass. will be using it via optical as portable with iriver and lisa III. how large are the russion teflons??


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ccschua* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 If I replace theses cap to Mundorf Silver/Oil, will I get better improvement._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ if there is a really superior detailed cap that I could just use by itself that cpould fit in 23x30mm hthen perhaps I could go without the bypass._

 

Hey, guys, I hope you guys realize capacitor-rolling is more akin to cooking than absolute science. There is no guarantee that more expensive caps will actually sound better subjectively given your preferences. 

 More specific recommendations will be possible if more information is provided:

 1) Which are the stock caps you are replacing?

 2) What specific aspects of sound do you NOT like about your current system with the stock caps.

 3) What specific areas would you like to change in what direction?


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, guys, I hope you guys realize capacitor-rolling is more akin to cooking than absolute science. There is no guarantee that more expensive caps will actually sound better subjectively given your preferences._

 

yes I realize this, my question is more about finding a cap that is the right size, as there isnt that much room

  Quote:


 More specific recommendations will be possible if more information is provided:

 1) Which are the stock caps you are replacing? 
 

I havent installed them yet. the gamma1 is built, but not cased up and I havent added the output caps yet. the standard build caps are elna silmic 22uf (not even sure if i'll replace them because they are quite nice caps and 22uf is a buit large to find (any ideas??) and the other is a wima 1uf MKS2 this I would like to replace with a nice, fast film cap
  Quote:


 2) What specific aspects of sound do you NOT like about your current system with the stock caps. 
 

nothing; I havent finished yet, but since i'm going to have the room as I have used a different case to allow me to convert to battery power rather than USB or dc

  Quote:


 3) What specific areas would you like to change in what direction? 
 

well I want more warmth and resolution if possible. primarily warmth, as the gamm1 is known to be a little cold, so an oil cap would be preferred


----------



## AudioCats

for that kind of space you can try audiocap theta. The theta is relativly bright and has a very "chewy" texture.

 Or you can use VitQ, the 100V/200V ones are small enough. But they do "require" a good by-pass cap.


 russian teflons:
 the 0.1uf/200V FT-2 is too large (0.7"x2"). 
 0.022uf/200V FT-1 should fit ok.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for that kind of space you can try audiocap theta. The theta is relativly bright and has a very "chewy" texture.

 Or you can use VitQ, the 100V/200V ones are small enough. But they do "require" a good by-pass cap.


 russian teflons:
 the 0.1uf/200V FT-2 is too large (0.7"x2"). 
 0.022uf/200V FT-1 should fit ok._

 


 nice one; I had considered the vitQ's actually; BTW where do I actually source russian teflons?? Pretty sure percyaudio has them, but another source of boutique caps would be great. not sure I like the sound of your 'chewy' textured caps. i'm trying to help with taking the edge off the brightness, so a bright cap doesnt sound ideal; I do want detail, but not at the expense of being too edgy. so the teflons will only be used as bypass. oh how I wish I had just a few mm more height, so I could just use the m=undorf SIO or SGIO like I want to


----------



## mourip

This is a fantastic thread. as one who has chased caps for better than 20 years this is heaven...

 I would like to explore a component topic further: Bypassing.

 When I first started modding bypassing was the rage. We slavishly bypassed everything, power caps, coupling caps... any thing that moved. Later folks started to suggest that bypassing messed with the timing of the signal. I stopped bypassing and just went for a single high quality cap...at least for coupling. Now I am thinking that I should see it all like cooking or art... add caps until you like what you get. 

 Having said all of this I am wondering what others have experienced. I am thinking about tearing into my Tektron tube amp and seeing what I can improve. Currently it has Clarity caps in it which sort of surprised me. I think of them as "bang for the buck" caps and not close to the best. I will probably put in some Mundorf Silver/Oils and not bypass them.

 I am mainly thinking about coupling applications here....

 Any ideas about bypassing?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mourip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I am thinking about tearing into my Tektron tube amp and seeing what I can improve. Currently it has Clarity caps in it which sort of surprised me. I think of them as "bang for the buck" caps and not close to the best. I will probably put in some Mundorf Silver/Oils and not bypass them.

 I am mainly thinking about coupling applications here....

 Any ideas about bypassing?_

 

That is somewhat surprising about Clarity caps. Mundorfs are kind of pricey, and these AmpOhm tin foil PIO caps are cheaper and at least as good so far, though much larger than Mundorf (see pic). 

 Thetubestore is the distributor, but they are often out of stock.


----------



## tubesmuggler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is somewhat surprising about Clarity caps. Mundorfs are kind of pricey, and these AmpOhm tin foil PIO caps are cheaper and at least as good so far, though much larger than Mundorf (see pic). 

 Thetubestore is the distributor, but they are often out of stock.
_

 


 They have plenty of stock now.

Ampohm Paper in Oil, Tin Foil Capacitors


----------



## Face

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mourip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currently it has Clarity caps in it which sort of surprised me. I think of them as "bang for the buck" caps and not close to the best. I will probably put in some Mundorf Silver/Oils and not bypass them._

 

Claritycap has a few different lines, some of them budget, some of them not. Clarity's MR's are far from budget and rank amongst Duelund caps. I recently compared Mundorf S/O's to Clarity MR's, the S/O's weren't even close. Even though this was a different application(loudspeaker crossover), I wouldn't be surprised if one had the same results as coupling caps, etc...


----------



## -=Germania=-

Hey, I have been running those AudioPhiler Caps from ebay for a while and they sound better and are more detailed than the ClairtyCap SA's that I previously had in the same position. 

 They aren't as good as the Obbligato Gold's, but these are 4 for $13 with shipping. Some people speculated that they were made by Solen/Axon, but these have none of that grit so I doubt it. They do take a while to reach their peak, but nothing horrible. For the record, I am using the 4.7uf variety. For the record, the four caps I got all measured within the 3% tolerance. For this price, it is hard to believe that it would.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-=Germania=-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, I have been running those AudioPhiler Caps from ebay for a while and they sound better and are more detailed than the ClairtyCap SA's_

 

"AudioPhiler Caps"? Do you have a link?


----------



## -=Germania=-

Here is the Link:
4,AudioPhiler 400V 4.7uf Tubular Axial Audio Capacitor - eBay (item 270313680204 end time May-04-09 21:05:23 PDT)

 Their picture is aweful. The fit an finish on these caps is etremely good, not the rubbed off and slightly mis-shapen that the pic shows.


----------



## Jon L

*AmpOhm Tin Foil Paper In Oil Capacitor*







 If you have been following this thread, you may know that I have been enjoying the venerable Mundorf Silver In Oil more and more of late. After everything has been said and done, when I actually had to choose ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) one capacitor for my amp to do some actual music-enjoying, I somehow chose the Mundorf SIO. 

 No, it doesn't "seem" to have 100 % of good Teflon caps' transparency and resolution, and it doesn't quite have 100 % of the weight and bloom of a good paper-in-oil; but it has enough of those qualities while avoiding to sound too literal (e.g. some teflons) or too rich (e.g. some PIO's). 

 So it came to me as a pleasant surprise when the AmpOhm Tin PIO directly replaced Mundorf SIO and seemed to be sounding at least as good! From experience, I knew oil caps need to settle in the specific circuit through regular use, so I let AmpOhm play/turn-off for many days. 

 AmpOhm really seems to hit the right balance among PIO's. In some circuits, the wonderful Jensen copper PIO can sometimes sound a bit too refined and buttery for my tastes, but AmpOhm avoids that while still remaining smooth. Speaking of smooth, AmpOhm is smoother than the Russian K40y, which in comparison can seem to have slightly more prominent grain-structure. 

 Mundorf SIO is not paper-in-oil, and as such, it has more top-end "air" and speed compared to most true PIO's. AmpOhm does not necessarily make you notice that extra air and sparkle up top, but it's still very extended when one listens for acoutic instruments like bells and triangles. What it has over Mundorf is higher density of tone and richness while not sounding syrupy or slow. 

 I still remember the first time I played Bach Cello Suites via AmpOhm. The cello sounded so magnificent I almost fell off my chair! Every detail, texture came through with power and vigor.

 At around $15 a piece, these things are a bargain in the audiophile capacitor world. They are much larger than similar-value Mundorf SIO, so make sure you have enough space, but they are very well-built, look beautiful, and sound even better. One caution. If you are looking to PIO's as sort of a filter to hide system faults by rounding, glossing-over, or rolling-off, these AmpOhms are not the way to go because they are still incredibly detailed and revealing of the signal chain.


----------



## Jon L

*AmpOhm Aluminum Foil Paper In Oil Capacitor*






 AmpOhm's aluminum foil version of PIO capacitors costs a dollar or two less than the tin foil version. Using common sense and powers of deduction, one would presume these aluminum caps are lower on the sonic totem pole. One would not be entirely correct. To quote the literature:

 "AMPOHM paper in oil (PIO) capacitors are hand wound using high purity tin [or aluminum] foil. They are oil impregnated before being assembled and oil filled. The capacitors are then hermetically sealed in an aluminum housing with phenolic resin and rubber end discs. Each lead is hand solder sealed to the eyelets in the end discs. The leads are 1.0mm in diameter and made of tinned copper (0.8mm diameter 0.0033uF and below). All AMPOHM Audio Capacitors are individually hand tested." 

 Sounds impressive, and both the tin and aluminum versions look and feel exactly the same with same impressive build quality. So it should not have suprised me when the aluminum version sounded very, very similar to the tin version. When I replaced the tin with aluminum (pre-burned-in), I *thought* I heard a slightly rounder, smoother presentation, albeit with a tiny less texture information. However, after some hours and days, I now can't say for sure I still hear those qualities; in fact, most of it just may have been the sound of new solder joint settling in. Sure, some people may hear more differences in different systems, but I wouldn't want to bet my own money in a blind test. 

 So what I wrote about the tin foil PIO pretty much can be re-written here without significant changes, which is a very good thing. Invariably, someone will STILL ask which one they should get for their amp XYZ. If I had to give an answer, for no good demonstrable reason, I might say go for the tin if your amp is already on the slightly smooth, round side and go for the aluminum if one's looking for a touch more forgiving sound...

 At this point, I am pretty much convinced that no capacitor can exactly sound like a PIO cap without actually being PIO, not even polypropylene in oil. The good PIO's just have that density of tone and texture information; it may be at the expense of ultimate extension and definition at the frequency extremes, but for many, it may be a good trade. For those who seek ruler-flat type of frequency response and "neutrality" without any extra "magic," PIO's probably will not be the answer, but these days, there are some great non-oil capacitors out there that sound great. They don't have to be expensive, either, as evidenced by my next-at-bat capacitor, Obbligato.


----------



## Jon L

*Obbligato “Copper” Capacitor*






 These Obbligato series of capacitors are sold by Diyhifisupply.com and are made to their specs. These are called “Copper” because the casing is made of solid copper, but the internal design is still metalized polypropylene. To quote the website:

 “These Obbligato film caps have a solid copper case, soldered copper lead-out wires and individually wrapped. All measure very close to rated value, max 5% but typically 1-2%. Wound tight with no voids and give a very transparent, smooth sound.”

 Obbligato caps have long been known to the DIY community as excellent inexpensive capacitors, costing around $5 for coupling sizes. They certainly weigh a ton due to the thick copper casing and feel extremely solid; they do not sound cheap, either. The overall sound seems linear, more so than the PIO caps, with very nicely airy and extended top-end. There is no hardness or glassy artifacts often found in really cheaply-made metalized poly caps while retaining speed and transparency. 

 The better metalized poly caps in general seem to share a trait, including Obbligato. They tend to have very nice detail and air in upper treble and a “fast” sound, but in the regions below, they tend not quite as developed, especially in the low-midrange/upper-bass area, with the possible exception of Auricaps. Compared to the AmpOhm PIO’s and some of the non-metalized poly caps, Obbligato seems to have less authority and grip in these ranges as well, leading to male vocals like Leonard Cohen sounding a bit less resonant and deep as I personally prefer. Another consequence of this is less PRAT and drive compared to some other caps, especially teflons. 

 Still, Obbligato Copper is an excellent overall performer and a fantastic deal at their prices. The caveats mentioned are shared by basically all metalized poly caps to some degree and only noticeable in direct comparison to much more expensive caps; they shoud not dissuade users from trying out these overall transparent and airy caps, which are definitely one of the few affordable references out there.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mourip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a fantastic thread. as one who has chased caps for better than 20 years this is heaven...

 I would like to explore a component topic further: Bypassing.

 When I first started modding bypassing was the rage. We slavishly bypassed everything, power caps, coupling caps... any thing that moved. Later folks started to suggest that bypassing messed with the timing of the signal. I stopped bypassing and just went for a single high quality cap...at least for coupling. Now I am thinking that I should see it all like cooking or art... add caps until you like what you get. 

 Having said all of this I am wondering what others have experienced. I am thinking about tearing into my Tektron tube amp and seeing what I can improve. Currently it has Clarity caps in it which sort of surprised me. I think of them as "bang for the buck" caps and not close to the best. I will probably put in some Mundorf Silver/Oils and not bypass them.

 I am mainly thinking about coupling applications here....

 Any ideas about bypassing?_

 

I've been trying two combinations that seem to work very very well together for input and output coupling in tube amps, the Russian series K75-10's (PLIO) and bypass those with .1uf or .015 (depending on the size of the PLIO) Russian Teflons either T1 or T3 series.

 You get the bloom, texture and beautiful mids of the PLIO with the accurate extended and quick highs of the Teflons.

 The Russian PIO/PLIO's (K40Y-9, K42Y-2,K75-10) seem to have no effect whatsoever on bass...what I mean by that is it lets the bass through uncolored and as it is which vintage PIO's like a Sprague Vit Q and others (CD or Aerovox) to varying degrees do not.

 The K75-10 PLIO (Paper Lavsan in Oil) is the Cadillac of the Russian PIO series but the drawback with any of the Russian caps are the sizes...especially the PLIO and T3 Teflons...they are bloody massive. Of course the great thing is the price and the sound quality. If your on a strict budget these caps are a slam dunk. Don't let the low cost fool you these are great caps.


 I agree with your statement about adding caps is a little like cooking...more art than science although electrical theory must be observed (goes without saying). Adding bypass PIO caps to the PSU mains filter caps..is always a good idea in my book 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Many Many thanks to the OP for creating this invaluable resource...great job !!!!

 I'm going to give the Ampohms (AFIO) bypassed with T3's a go in my upcoming MC34-AB tube amp rebuild.

 Peete.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The K75-10 PLIO (Paper Lavsan in Oil) is the Cadillac of the Russian PIO series but the drawback with any of the Russian caps are the sizes..._

 

Are you saying K75 sounds better than K40? 

 I can't seem to find K75 in coupling sizes, e.g. 0.22 uF, etc.


----------



## -=Germania=-

Hey Jon, I have a set of the 4.7uf that you can compare, just PM me.


----------



## rha61

Hi
 i confirm , K75-10 are very nice caps , better than K40 IMO
 i've not tried to bypass with teflon FT


----------



## Jon L

*Russian K72 Teflon Capacitor "Nude"*






 I always had a soft spot for the Russian K72 teflon capacitor, which was the original Russian teflon wonder that DIY'ers picked up on, and the rest is history. It had tons of detail and dynamics, but it had a tendency for a bit of hardness and etch, which some suspected was partly due to its thick steel case and metal posts.






 I was able to test the "nude" K72 that has been de-cased and de-posted (courtesy of Josh K), and I must say this version loses most of the hardness and etch of the stock unit. After a long break-in, the sound is almost creamy-smooth in the low-treble and upper-midrange while the detail and dynamics remain. 

 What I have always liked about the Russian teflons, including K72 and FT3, was that while they don't quite have the air and refinement of the VCaps or Auricap Teflon, they actually had a bolder and more robust presentation that projected more forward with arguably a more involving mien. Now with the nude mod adding smoothness, K72 must certainly be *the* giant-killer, right?

 Well, almost. The nude mod ended up sounding a little too creamy and smooth up top. There was terrific detailing right up to the midrange, but the triangles, cymbals, and violin's upper harmonics did not ring clear in sparkling fashion. Wait! I have heard a very similar sound previously... It was the Audiocap Theta, and adding a small FT-1 teflon bypass capacitor was the sweet answer then, so I tried the same with the nude K72. 

 2200 pF FT-1 Teflon Capacitor






 Holy Batman, now things were really cooking. Since FT-1 is basically the same internally as K72, adding the bypass did not result in any appreciable incoherence or discontinuity, just adding that last breath of air, upper harmonics, and sparkle. The resulting sound was at once robust, dense, detailed, and airy, while being as smooth as baby's behind. I really liked the results, and if you have some K72's, I highly encourage you to crack open the case and add the FT-1 teflon bypass.


----------



## Skorpitarius

LOL


----------



## qusp

anyone tried using the dueland CSF copper crossover caps as signal caps? i've just ordered some 2.2uf as they are the perfect size for a dock (my own casing fabricated with dremel); has the potential to be a teflon VCAP killer in my rig. i've also just soldered in some mundorf SIO 0.68uf as bypass caps in my VCAP dock (4.7uf OIMP with 0.47uf TFTF), swapped out the VCAP teflon 0.47uf for the SIO. I felt I needed a touch more depth of soundstage and a little less etched HF. hopefully the SIO retain the air of the teflons, but add a touch of smoothness and more involving presentation. no comment yet as I havent given it a listen, burning as we speak


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone tried using the dueland CSF copper crossover caps as signal caps? i've just ordered some 2.2uf as they are the perfect size for a dock (my own casing fabricated with dremel); has the potential to be a teflon VCAP killer in my rig._

 

You mean Duelund VSF copper, not "CSF"? These things are around $200 each for 0.1 uF/400V and way more expensive than VCap teflon for high voltage values. The pricing is kind of strange and goes lower for the 200V Duelunds, but that's way too low for most tube applications (my thing).


----------



## qusp

yeah typo, VSF copper: virtual stacked foil. I know how expensive they are. especially the silver. for silver in useful values (for my uses anyway) you are looking at around $2500 each 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but the 2.2uf copper i'm getting are setting me back $180 a pop. PCX have a 20% sale on now too, so can get cheaper (just after I ordered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) at this price they are actually cheaper than VCAP teflon in those values. now if I bought the DC version they would be about $400 each and larger too, but I have been assured that the crossover version will be fine as a coupling cap. the pricing is strange alright. the crossover caps are about half the price of the DC signal caps in the same values. now they are larger and they are hand made, so I guess I can understand why they would be more expensive, but I cant understand why they would be double the price. i'll have to wait till i'm mega rich to try out the silver 'cast' duelands!! one day. and not in an ipod dock LOL, i'm pusing the boundaries (some would say crossed long ago) of what is useful for thsi purpose. spending $5000 on a dock for a $$500 source would be a tad silly.


----------



## AudioCats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah typo, VSF copper: virtual stacked foil. I know how expensive they are. especially the silver. for silver in useful values (for my uses anyway) you are looking at around $2500 each 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but the 2.2uf copper i'm getting are setting me back $180 a pop. PCX have a 20% sale on now too, so can get cheaper (just after I ordered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) at this price they are actually cheaper than VCAP teflon in those values. now if I bought the DC version they would be about $400 each and larger too, but I have been assured that the crossover version will be fine as a coupling cap. the pricing is strange alright. the crossover caps are about half the price of the DC signal caps in the same values. now they are larger and they are hand made, so I guess I can understand why they would be more expensive, but I cant understand why they would be double the price. i'll have to wait till i'm mega rich to try out the silver 'cast' duelands!! one day. and not in an ipod dock LOL, i'm pusing the boundaries (some would say crossed long ago) of what is useful for thsi purpose.* spending $5000 on a dock for a $$5500 source would be a tad silly*._

 

corrected that for ya. the dock will end up being part of the source, no?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PCX have a 20% sale on now too, so can get cheaper (just after I ordered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) at this price they are actually cheaper than VCAP teflon in those values. now if I bought the DC version they would be about $400 each and larger too,_

 

Well, try them and let us know how they sound. Maybe some of us will get to order them during the sale


----------



## Face

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, try them and let us know how they sound. Maybe some of us will get to order them during the sale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Since their capacitors are usually made to order, I doubt he would receive them before the sale is over. So you better order now, I just did.


----------



## qusp

hmmmm, well maybe, maybe not, some amps have input caps for DC filtering dont they?? so the act of separating the caps from the source and amp, would make it kind of ambiguous which one it is part of, would it not?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JonL* 
_Well, try them and let us know how they sound. Maybe some of us will get to order them during the sale_

 

Ha bloody ha Jon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hehe

 will do, wont be for a little while as I have plenty on my plate before I take on that dock; I will be putting my Dremel to use to make a nice custom enclosure for them. I figure this dock will be the last incarnation of my personal ipod docks, so I want to make something special for it and I have a lot of work on that I have to finish before I even start. Besides, hammond doesnt make one that suits the size and I want to take full advantage of the size/shape and make a more compact dock than what I have been using. I'm torn between burning these in while i'm doing that, or wait and listen to them evolve. i'm thinking the latter, so will be able to give a more complete report on them. might even do something in a wood front/back panel. or a copper front/back panel. what can I plate copper with to stop the patina?? or maybe the patina would look nice if I look after it hmmm... decisions, decisions. either way will probably be at least a month before I have anything to say on the matter depending on delivery time, unless I jerry-rig something to have a quick listen before I house them. will see how things pan out, but i'll definitely keep you guys in the loop.


----------



## hukkfinn

Hi,
 I have a Conrad Johnson PV12 tube preamp. It's been heavily modded, but it still has the CJ label polypropylene 2.0uF output caps.

 My problem and my goal:
 No matter what tubes I try, it currently sounds too detailed, a little bleached out, and light in its loafers. The highs are slightly artificial (similar to when you use all-silver interconnects, and they sort of shout, "silver! silver! look how clean it sounds! silver!" I am missing that real, rich, ooey-gooey, natural, human sound. 
 I want my preamp to have a warmer sound, more rich, more bass heft/ weight/ PUNCH, and more midbass impact.

 (Of course, I want my stereo to sound AWEsome, so I want midrange layering and some sparkle up top, the usual. If I didn't care about mids and highs I might try the Cardas caps, because I hear they are super warm and rich, but supposedly this is at the expense of mids and highs.)

 Having read your excellent thread, I am leaning toward trying:
 AmpOhm Aluminum PIO
 Auricap

 Do either of these seem like the right path based on my sonic goals?
 Thanks so much for any views,
 Hukk


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hukkfinn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Having read your excellent thread, I am leaning toward trying:
 AmpOhm Aluminum PIO
 Auricap
_

 

I know the sound of PV12; I wonder if your modifycations have tuned it too analytical. You're on the right track with the caps. You can also add:

 Audiocap Theta
 Jensen copper PIO
 vitamin Q PIO

 But you should try tube-rolling first. Depending on what tubes you are using in the linestage (12AU7), RCA black plate 5963 (12AU7), Amperex 7316, Mullard ECC82, etc may do the trick. Don't forget the tube dampers, i.e. Herbie's.


----------



## Jon L

*ERO KP1832 Polypropylene Film and Foil Capacitor*






 This "KP" series capacitor is a genuine film and foil capacitor, unlike the metallized polypropylene "MKP" capacitors. It's difficult to find a consistent source for these NOS capacitors, but they often turn up on eBay in small uF values and have long been considered excellent-sounding in DIY circles. 

 Due to their small values, they are mostly used as bypass capacitors, and this is how I have tested them as well. So far, my favorite bypass capacitor has been the Russian FT-1 teflons, which simply shines when bypassing certain capacitors, e.g. Russian "nude" K72 teflons or Audiocap Theta. However, there are other capacitors that sound too different from FT-1 as to end up sounding incoherent when thus bypassed.

 This is where a nice polypropylene film and foil capacitor like KP1832 can come in handy. It lacks that slightly artificial glint metallized poly caps can impart while still extending the upper frequency and air. Its sound is quite natural and not showy at all, which may not give an ear-grabbing, exciting presentation, but it certainly does its job. 

 A good bypass cap applied correctly, with some luck thrown in, does not make the sound brighter like some may think, but it actually makes the lower-treble to upper-midrange area sound even smoother. It's almost as if some of the peakiness in that range moves over to the very high treble, which translates into more ambience and sense of space. I have heard similar effects with speakers when adding in a good supertweeter, not turned up too high of course. 

 An example of a good capacitor that benefits from a bypass capacitor like this is the Jupiter Beewax capacitor. This is a capacitor I have always liked due to its natural tone and plenty of lively treble presentation. When compared to good teflon, it does seem a bit less ruler-flat through the upper ranges with some of the very top-end ambience muted. Bypassing the Jupiter capacitor with ERO KP1832 resulted in a more linear and smooth sound with better ambience and air, making a good capacitor even better. KP1832 is so promising as bypass, I hope to try them as coupling capacitors, but larger values do not seem easy to come by unfortunately.


----------



## Jon L

*AmpOhm Copper Foil Paper-In-Oil Capacitor*






 The AmpOhm line of oil capacitors has been a great find for current-production, modern, oil capacitors that sound excellent at reasonable prices. The build quality is quite superb for the prices, and there have been no long-term-listening surprises or letdowns, either. 

 So when the copper foil version of the AmpOhm PIO's became available, I had to give it a good listen and compare to the other versions. After the obligatory burn-in period, I directly compared the copper version with the tin foil version, changing back-and-forth. 

 I would say the difference in character between copper and tin is larger than between tin and aluminum, yet all three versions share similar presentations, which is no doubt due to the exactly identical construction except for the foil material. All share a well-balanced clarity with great detail resolution, at least for PIO's, and above all, music is well-served. This does not make it any easier to describe precisely how the copper and tin sound different, but I do have a few observations. 

 With the copper, there is a little more attention-grabbing presence or copper-glow, mainly in the midrange, which can be described as slightly rounder yet with a fraction more detailing of the texture. Both female and male voices step forward half a step closer while the high and low frequencies remain similar to the tin foil version. This "mien," if you will, is mildly reminiscent of the Jensen copper PIO, yet the AmpOhm copper seems to have better clarity and extension at both ends of the spectrum. 

 However, it is difficult to say whether the copper version is conclusively "better" than the other versions because they are sufficiently different that one can work better than the other in a given system configuration. While the tin foil version is a little less attention-grabbing, in certain situations, it's slightly more self-effacing demeanor may go a long way. Fortunately, all these versions are well-priced that one can try them all and choose the most synergistic part for his musical tastes.


----------



## nonstop

Hello, I'm new. I am looking for information to these caps


----------



## errnst

nice thread just what i was looking for


----------



## qusp

well this week i have received some the Duelunds I ordered. bought 2 x 2.2uf, 2 x 2.7uf and 2 x 3.9uf VSF copper foil. so I will begin posting impressions over the coming weeks. 2 of these and 2 mundorf SIO are going into my buffalo, and the other 4 are going into 2 ipod docks.

 these are simply the most amazingly built caps I think i've ever seen. they resemble a cross between a very expensive chocolate bar and an ancient gold leaf book; the type that would contain spells. 

 pics online and even these dont do them justice. they are truly a work of art; if they sound even half as good as they look i'll be a happy man. the way the foil catches the light through the organic resin is enchanting. cant wait to put them to use. the ones in the buffalo wont be installed for a few weeks yet, because my kit is still on its way, but I will have some initial impressions of them in my dock (makeshift enclosure) before then; after I let them settle in for a while. the whole look and feel just exudes nature, you can smell the oil and resin when you open the packet or put them up to your nose.


----------



## frozenice

Oooh, Black Magic Spells and Chocolate. Me like.


----------



## Face

My entire kitchen smelled of oil and resin when I received my 60uf VSF's.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Face* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My entire kitchen smelled of oil and resin when I received my 60uf VSF's._

 

I can imagine; even with jusrt a total of 17.6uf it was pretty heady. man that 60uf must've been heavy!! even just the 2.2uf is really heavy for its size


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nonstop* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello, I'm new. I am looking for information to these caps




_

 

Those appear to be silver mica capacitors made by German manufacturer Jahre, which has a good reputation.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Hello Jon, can you say what are the differences between an "entry" PiO from Ampohm - the _Ampohm PiO Aluminium Foil_ - and the _Obbligato Oil caps_ ?

 (BTW, does Obbligato have more than one range of oil caps ?)


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello Jon, can you say what are the differences between an "entry" PiO from Ampohm - the Ampohm PiO Aluminium Foil - and the Obbligato Oil caps ?

 (BTW, does Obbligato have more than one range of oil caps ?)_

 

The black Obbligato caps are the "oil caps," but they are not paper-in-oil like AmpOhm tin or alum PIO. I believe they are polypropylene-in-oil, and I haven't tried them, only their non-oil film caps.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Eh well, if anyone's heard them perhaps they can comment.

 If not, does anyone have any "general experience" with polypropylene-in-oil types ? If so how would you say they sound "in general" compared to true PiO caps ?


----------



## Jon L

*Jupiter Beewax Paper HT Capacitor*







 While I have always liked the Juper Beewax capacitor’s sonics, the original version’s construction quality left a lot to be desired, especially its reported weakness in hot environments. It really did feel like a candlestick wrapped in paper and was not recommended to be used near hot tubes or resistors; however, its presentation was very pleasing and non-artificial, devoid of any plasticky signature or hype. 

 Fortunately, the Jupiter capacitor has been redesigned using a reinforced and improved beeswax paper as well as a non-drip casing rated for higher operating temperatures. The older version was not recommended for temperature greater than 110 F, but the new version is reported safe up to 176 F. In addition, all the new versions come with solid-silver leadout wires terminating the aluminum foil, whereas the older version came with either copper or silver wires. It really appears to be a completely new design, as one can see from the picture below of the old and new design in the same uF/voltage value.






 The big question is, were they able to reduce the size and reinforce the construction, yet not lose any of the sonic charm of the original? I’m happy to report “yes” to that question along with some other observations. The old and new sound very, very similar, so much so it’s splitting hairs. Both still have a warm, dense, natural midrange with a lot of nice texturing and richness that’s not distant or cool. While not super-defined like teflons, the bass has that woody, unforced roundness many people seek for acoustic bass, and the overall gestalt builds the music from ground (bass) up. While those who love the treble presentation of teflons and polystyrenes may complain the Jupiter is not as sparkly and obviously airy, there is still a lot of treble information and detail present, especially up to mid-treble. Poor recordings that’s simply intolerable can find a measure of forgiveness with the Jupiter. 

 Is there any sonic difference with the new version? Well, it’s nothing to write home about, but the new version may have a touch smoother low-treble/upper-mids while the old version may be slightly more lively. While I do believe this smoother presentation in the upper-mids of the new version is due to more high treble extension, I would hesitate to bet any significant amount of money on anyone being able tell them apart reliably. Another confounding factor is that the old version I have has copper leadouts while the new ones all come with silver. It’s possible this alone could account for some of the perceived difference. 

 I have written before about how bypassing the old Jupiter with ERO KP1832 Polypropylene film and foil capacitor improves the hall ambience and air, and this still holds true for the new version. Listening closer this time, the improved upper harmonics also seems to make the bass appear tighter, which seems counter-intuitive but easily demonstrable by covering one’s tweeters and observing subjective loss of bass tightness. At any rate, Jupiter plus a good film and foil bypass remains one of my favorites for those who want a natural, earthy sound combined with detail.


----------



## xneakers

Digging around Tempo Electric, then audiogon and finally here...

 Anyone comparing those crazy expensive Duelunds? 
 Jon when you will get your Duelunds? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still waiting for Jimmy's finding on his site...
Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Capacitors Break-In Session

 crazy comparison though...


----------



## Face

Yes, they're very nice. 

 Excuse the speaker's appearance, was using the books to determine which angle worked best for the TM section. 

 FYI, the CAST is a 6.8uf, VSF is 60uf, and the MR is 4.1uf.


----------



## xneakers

@Face:
 One word... CRAZY!!!


----------



## bittersweetca

EXmusic.Net - Free Download MP3 Music - Techno - Trance - Minimal - Drum&Bass - Electro - House - Best Releases - DJ Music - ÐœÑƒÐ·Ñ‹ÐºÐ° Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð”Ð¸Ð”Ð¶ÐµÐµÐ² - DJ Soft - EXmusic.net *EXmusic.Net - Free Download MP3 Music - Techno - Trance - Minimal - Drum&Bass - Electro - House - Best Releases - DJ Music - ÐœÑƒÐ·Ñ‹ÐºÐ° Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð”Ð¸Ð”Ð¶ÐµÐµÐ² - DJ Soft - EXmusic.net* FRESH MUSIC EVERY DAY ... every day update house techno trance dnb electro fresh releases vynils FREE!


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eh well, if anyone's heard them perhaps they can comment.

 If not, does anyone have any "general experience" with polypropylene-in-oil types ? If so how would you say they sound "in general" compared to true PiO caps ?_

 

In "general," IME polyprop in oil tends to have more apparent high-treble "air" and subjectively sounds faster than true PIO, which fight back with more dense tone and richness. 

 Another dark horse that flies under the radar are mylar-in-oil caps. Some of these things sound *VERRRY" interesting..


----------



## scootermafia

Should have looked 2 posts up. Whoops.

 I approve of the Duelund keg size caps. They look like they need a fuse so I can set them off.


----------



## SleepyOne

The Duelund looks amazing, so big! And there is a silver version.....


----------



## Jon L

*Russian K75-10 Hybrid Paper and Polyethylene Terephthalate In Oil Capacitor*






 This Russian military capacitor is quite intriguing in its reported construction and in appearance that resembles a small grenade. Its dielectric is claimed to be a hybrid of paper and polyethylene terephthalate, which is essentially a type of mylar, saturated in oil. There is some debate as to which Russian "oil" capacitor is the best, and while K40Y is widely recognized and used, some report K75-10 is the premium oil capacitor out of the Russian military. 

 I can report that K75-10 sounds extremely unique, quite different from K40Y PIO and any other true PIO one cares to mention, including Vitamin Q, Jensen, and AmpOhm. It has a very saturated, colorful, textured, and detailed midrange that is thick and juicy. While PIO's are known for their natural and smooth midrange, K75 seems to add some jest, pop, and color to the proceedings, yielding an apparently more detailed and forceful presentation. Treble and bass is pretty good, especially for an oil cap, but the leading edges are not razor-sharp and precise like premium film caps. Since the midrange is so involving and palpable, the lack of equal force in treble makes it seem a bit dark overall, but as one increases the volume, this becomes less of an issue, and poorly-recorded music is much more tolerable at higher volume. 

 The sound is rather addicting in its presentation and can even be called delicious in what it does well, kind of reminiscent of biting into a ripe peach. The line dividing "colorful" and "colored" is thin, and while K75-10 likely leans a bit to the latter, I quite enjoy its substantial sound and prefer it to the thin, plasticky sound many other capacitors represent.


----------



## denging

Could anybody here explain to me where exactly do the russians military apply their exotic capacitors? Hi-end mil-spec stereophonic misile radar?


----------



## smithie

hello
 this has been agrat read and intresting thread,and jon l discriptions on the capacitors i have has been spot on,so well done there.
 i would like to say i have found a great combination regarding caps,if not alittle expensive!
 ive been using ampohn 2.2uf pio caps,there great but like alot of pio caps i found the treble slightly recessed and the focus not very tight,and in my system my mid-bass seemed to also be alittle shy.
 anyway i bypassed this cap with a mundorf silver in oil that i had lying around...the result....ive been up all night digging out the cd collection and going thro them as if there all new to me....in my system and to these ears im well impressed,tighter focus,massive dynamics and a solid mid-bass but still with the magic of pio.
 i was just wondering if there is a ideal size value to use as a bypass cap on a 2.2uf cap,im using 0.47 which i realise could be alittle bit big for the job,but as thats all i had around,thats what i used!!
 any views on values regarding bypass values?
 once again,great work/effort jon l
 all the best
 smithie


----------



## SleepyOne

Jimmy's review is out.






Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Extreme Capacitors Battle (1st Session)


 And here is another review with comment on the Duelund:

Humble Homemade Hifi


----------



## jojo_b2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *denging* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could anybody here explain to me where exactly do the russians military apply their exotic capacitors? Hi-end mil-spec stereophonic misile radar?_

 

I'm just guessing here, but I believe the usage are more on Radar, Sonar and Submarine equipment. Bybees are one example of something that was coined for the stated purpose. =)


----------



## SleepyOne

Jimmy's review part 2.

Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Extreme Capacitors Battle (2nd Session)


----------



## Jon L

*BYPASSING WITH VCAP TEFLONS*







 After being charmed by the K75-10 capacitor, I did try replacing them with several others but ended up missing what K75-10 does best, i.e. rich, colorful, center-of-earth midrange, with gobs of texture, which some may interpret as extra grain. Putting the K75-10 back in, I then missed the finely-delineated upper frequencies with smooth extension other caps are blessed with. 

 In the past, whenever I was faced with this type of situation, bypassing often saved the day, so I tried bypassing K75-10 with VCap teflons. With many caps, bypassing with teflons often sound terribly disjointed and incoherent, but K75-10 sang beautifully with VCap teflons. This combination retained all the warmth, richness, and texture of K75-10 but imbued the upper and lower frequencies with extra clarity and definition that was sorely needed. As often is the case when high frequency harmonics are improved, the bass frequencies subjectively tightened up as well. This pair is so attractive-sounding that I believe the combo belongs in the league of the best of the breed. Of course, there is no guarantee this combo will work as well in one's particular gear/system, but if you find teflons too "clinical" and oilers not neutral enough, one can certainly do a lot worse.


----------



## Jon L

*AmpOhm Polyester Film Aluminum Capacitor*






 Many people believe polyester capacitors are cheap and bad-sounding and tend to avoid anything that says "polyester"; however, most of this belief stems from bad experience with cheap polyester capacitors, not serious polyester film capacitors like the AmpOhm pictured above. 

 True film polypropylene capacitors (i.e. ERO KP1832) tend to sound better than metallized polypropylene caps, and so do film polyester cap like AmpOhm compared to MKT caps. In my experience, cheap, small MKT caps tend to sound rough, bright, and forward, lacking true extension and refinement. Some of them do sound decent and maybe even "good", but they are not going to be mistaken for good teflons or PIO's anytime soon. So when I first inserted the AmpOhm polyester film cap after the burn-in apparatus and heard a brightish, thin sound, I said to myself, "Yup, that sounds like polyester." But following my usual protocol, I let the caps burn in more in the actual amp position for a long additional period. 

 When I came back to the rig, I could hardly believe what's happened to the sound. The sound gained an intense, clear, "juicy" quality that was irresistible, especially for female voices. Upper-midrange to midrange was translucent and illuminated with glowing floodlight with every detail present yet with no grit or grain. The tangible palpability was off the charts and perhaps one of the most "fun" times I've had with the human voice. The degree of presence was akin to the proverbial female singer closely singing into your ears. 

 This is very different from the polypropylene presentation, which does not highlight the midrange presence as much. The treble and bass of the AmpOhm polyester cap is probably in the same ballpark as good polypropylene film caps, but the midrange is definitely something special and unique. In addition, this is not a cap to be used lightly if you have weaknesses in digital front-end, interconnects, power conditioning, etc. The sheer amount of detail and presence in the midrange will not be kind to hard, forward source or components, which is very different from AmpOhm PIO caps, which tend to be more forgiving of such things while remaining musically revealing. At any rate, this capacitor has opened my eyes to polyester film capacitors, and I hope to try some others built to the same high standard in the future.


----------



## Peter Roodzant

This is really a great thread!! Jon, thank you so much for all your hours of listening and writing. Your descriptions are in line with my own observations, and I completely understand your descriptions of the sonic behaviour of the capacitors.

 I did not read this very long thread from a to z, so perhaps my question has been covered before, but have you compared K40Y9 to K42Y2? Are they different or are they basically the same?

 Peter


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peter Roodzant* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is really a great thread!! Jon, thank you so much for all your hours of listening and writing. Your descriptions are in line with my own observations, and I completely understand your descriptions of the sonic behaviour of the capacitors.

 I did not read this very long thread from a to z, so perhaps my question has been covered before, but have you compared K40Y9 to K42Y2? Are they different or are they basically the same?

 Peter_

 

I haven't tried K42, but those who have actually opened one up report they are metallized paper imprenated with wax/oil. K40 is true paper in oil.


----------



## Peter Roodzant

Not only K75-10 but also K75-12 can be found on ebay. I wonder what the differences are between those. K75-12 seems to be smaller in size. Can anyone tell me more about K75-12?

 Peter


----------



## errnst

can you folks tell me where i can get sonicap capacitors
 i am in canada,


----------



## Face

Have you tried Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts or GR Research


----------



## qusp

JonL I would definitely agree that VCAP teflon make a superb bypass cap, I do not really enjoy them on their own, as I find them to be just a little too good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 real music performance should IMO have just a touch of grit or it sounds alien to me. Thats if there is such a thing as too good. I have found that bypassing Duelund copper foil with VCAP teflon is about as good as it gets for my taste. Duelund bypassed with mundorf SIO is also superb sounding.


----------



## Face

I prefer using a single cap whenever possible, but Claritycap MR's bypassed with Duelund work well together.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*BYPASSING WITH VCAP TEFLONS*

 After being charmed by the K75-10 capacitor, I did try replacing them with several others but ended up missing what K75-10 does best, i.e. rich, colorful, center-of-earth midrange, with gobs of texture, which some may interpret as extra grain. Putting the K75-10 back in, I then missed the finely-delineated upper frequencies with smooth extension other caps are blessed with. 

 In the past, whenever I was faced with this type of situation, bypassing often saved the day, so I tried bypassing K75-10 with VCap teflons. With many caps, bypassing with teflons often sound terribly disjointed and incoherent, but K75-10 sang beautifully with VCap teflons. This combination retained all the warmth, richness, and texture of K75-10 but imbued the upper and lower frequencies with extra clarity and definition that was sorely needed. As often is the case when high frequency harmonics are improved, the bass frequencies subjectively tightened up as well. This pair is so attractive-sounding that I believe the combo belongs in the league of the best of the breed. Of course, there is no guarantee this combo will work as well in one's particular gear/system, but if you find teflons too "clinical" and oilers not neutral enough, one can certainly do a lot worse._

 

I agree 100% with your findings Jon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 The Key to getting the most out of the K75-10's is to bypass them with a Teflon as I stated a few pages back (and as you have done here). With all the combo's I've tried thus far I keep returning to the K75-10/Teflon (of choice) pairing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: The high V version of the K75-10 is the K75-24...loads of decent coupling sizes that I found on Feebay for a decent price (Sovcom).

 It might be interesting to compare the nude K72/T1 bypass pairing vs the CVH V-Cap with the K75's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Peete.


----------



## Speakerquest

Bypassing seems like a hit or miss trial. Value and type of bypass cap seems to have a great inluence on the outcome, so this experiment can become quite costly. Has anyone tried using two different caps of the SAME value for coupling (for instance 1+1uF), in order to get the best performace characteristics from both caps. For instance the full tuneful sound of an Ampohm PIO in combination with the frequency extremes of a Mundorf Silver/Gold. Of course there is a risk of getting a bad compromise result, but if anyone have caps of same value laying around it could be worth a try.


----------



## ffrr




----------



## Peter Roodzant

Another option for bypassing is to take two capacitors of the same brand and type. One with the value needed for a certain application, and then bypassed with the smallest (or one of the smallest) value of the same capacitor range. For example: one Jensen 1uF/630V copper PIO bypassed with a Jensen 0.015uF/630V copper PIO. The advantage of this small capacitor is that it has better high frequency behaviour than the bigger value. You will notice that the soundstage opens up without altering the overall character of that capacitor type. 

 Also very often coupling capacitors have much to large value’s. The smaller value’s of same capacitors are generally better sounding than the big one’s. As an input capacitor of an amplifier with an input impedance of 100k, 0.22uF is already okay. This combination gives a -3dB point of 7Hz. 
 For coupling caps between two stages in an amplifier who are within a feedback loop, it’s better to stay with the original value. Because otherwise you would alter feedback behaviour, which can (but not always) lead to instability of the amplifier. 

 Peter


----------



## catachresis

I just wanted to say that in the years that I've been a Headfi member, "Orgy of Capacitors" has been my favorite thread title. I smile quietly to myself every time I read it.


----------



## Peter Roodzant

For those who are interested in the -3dB point of a certain coupling capacitor – input resistor combination, below you find a link to an online calculator. Set the resistance checkbox to Kohm, the capacitor checkbox to uF and the frequency checkbox to Hz, fill in your values and click calculate. When the coupling capacitor is the output capacitor of a (tube) pre-amp, fill in the input impedance of the power amplifier connected to it. 
 Generally -3dB points of 7 to 8 Hz or below are okay. Combinations below 1 Hz could use a smaller capacitor, because largely oversized capacitors are not recommended.

Pronine Electronics Design - RC Circuit Calculator


----------



## The Rino

Hey Jon, was wondering if you got ahold of the Mundorf Silver-gold-oil yet. Am waiting for your impressions. Also, with an iMod, Hornet and IE8's, what suggestions do you have over the Vcap oils for a nice change to my system. Could I bypass the vcap oil with something? Am thinking of either the Aura-T or Mundorf Gold/silver/oil. Could you tell me what differences either of these would make compared to just the V-cap oil?


----------



## The Rino

I forgot to mention: If anyone has any advice for me that would be awsome. I'm soon going to take the plunge and get one of those two I think.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Rino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Could I bypass the vcap oil with something? Am thinking of either the Aura-T or Mundorf Gold/silver/oil. Could you tell me what differences either of these would make compared to just the V-cap oil?_

 

In general, bypass only if you are not happy with the sound! 
 If you feel your VCap Oil needs extra air/speed/definition, VCap teflon (or other teflon) bypass can be considered. Nobody can say for sure how your results will be, so only thing you can do is try and see..


----------



## The Rino

I'm very happy with the sound of what I have now but can't help wondering how much happier Id be with different caps. I have no experience with other equipment so I really need some advice on where to go next. I'm in the "how good can you possibly make the music" mode.

 Do you have any comparisons between vcap oil, and the Mundorf gold/silver oil, and Aura-T. I'd like to replace the vcaps with something just for kicks. To your ears what would be preferable over the vcap oils. Have you done a review of the vcap oils? I know it is highly subjective but if you had my setup which cap would you use?


----------



## The Rino

I just replaced my vcap OIMP with Mundorf Gold/Silver/Oil in my iMod dock. Right out of the box they seem a little harsh. I only have to turn my volume control on my Hornet about 1/2 as far as I did for the vcaps. The soundstage seems a little wider and staging a little more separate than the vcaps. I'll report back in about 100hrs.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Rino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just replaced my vcap OIMP with Mundorf Gold/Silver/Oil in my iMod dock. Right out of the box they seem a little harsh. I only have to turn my volume control on my Hornet about 1/2 as far as I did for the vcaps. The soundstage seems a little wider and staging a little more separate than the vcaps. I'll report back in about 100hrs._

 

I fully understand that my post will be more or less ignored at this point, but how? How does a capacitor influence "soundstage" and "staging separation"? Do you know what a capacitor is and how it functions?


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Rino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just replaced my vcap OIMP with Mundorf Gold/Silver/Oil in my iMod dock. Right out of the box they seem a little harsh. I only have to turn my volume control on my Hornet about 1/2 as far as I did for the vcaps. The soundstage seems a little wider and staging a little more separate than the vcaps. I'll report back in about 100hrs._

 

umm well i'm thinking your problem will be the amount of capacitance you have, Mundorf SGIO are much larger physically than VCAP OIMP, you could not fit a 4.7uf Mundorf SGIO in a PVCAP case, so how many uf did you buy?? depending on the pot on the hornet, you may be getting bass roll-off. why didnt you buy a new amp?? the money you would have had to spend on even a 2.2uf SGIO would more than pay for a new amp

 actually just checked
 M-CAP® Supreme Silver / Gold & Oil 1uf / 1200V 31*42

 so assuming the hornet has a 50k pot like most of rays other portables
 ENTER AMP INPUT IMP IN K =50
 ENTER CAPS in uF =1
 CORNER FREQ =3.183098865
 PHASE DISTORTION UP TO IN HZ =31.83098865< SHOULD BE BELOW 20
 you are getting rolloff unless you used a new and different sized case and got larger caps

 which is it

 even 1uf is already too big for the PVCAP hammond case

 also, ignore the troll, if he doesnt believe caps can effect sound he shouldnt be here and is just looking for a reaction


----------



## The Rino

You're right Qusp, I could not fit my new caps in my ALO vcap case but did some mods to the dock and just added the Mundorf 2.2 uF's with out the case (but kept the front panel of the dock) . At this point in my early hi-fi journey I'm just experimenting with different parts of my portable setup. I'm really not adding/replacing components in a logical progression just on a whim,but have great enjoyment of the improvements that I happen to stumble upon. I have been meaning to replace my Hornet with an RSA Mustang but have had more interest in the varieties of caps. I got a good deal on the Mundorfs so chose them over the Aura-T's. I've read very good things about the Duelund Cu cast and Vcap T's but with the V-cap OIMP as my starting reference point I figured there're are many steps of improvement that I can realize.


----------



## qusp

ahh ok, sure, well I didnt get to look up the pot on the hornet, but if its under 50k, that still may be your problem. the mundorfs are great caps, but do require quite a bit of burn in to come into their own. as far as other caps to try. the VCAP teflon, I would only recommend as a bypass cap, its too ruthless to use by itself with an IMOD, it would just reveal issues with the source. the duelund cast forget about it, I run a duelund VSF copper dock bypassed with mundorf SIO and that is simply superb, but I think thats past the wall when it comes to improvements when using an modded ipod as source. you would just be wasting a couple of grand to not get any better than the VSF. in all honesty the SIO were really not necessary and I would say stick to the VSF. the VSF has a very nice and natural sound with soundstage to burn, very coherent and to some extent this coherency was upset by the addition of the mundorf SIO bypass caps; there is a slight razors edge that is not there with the VSF by itself and i'm not sure it sounds natural. I'm going to leave the SIO in there for a few hundred hours and see if it comes together, but if not i'll just take them out and put the dock into a smaller hammond. the VSF are also quite compact and a good shape to work with for a portable dock.

 plus the CAST are insanely heavy and oddly shaped for a portable dock


----------



## wushuliu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fully understand that my post will be more or less ignored at this point, but how? How does a capacitor influence "soundstage" and "staging separation"? Do you know what a capacitor is and how it functions?_

 

I'm sure you realize no one is ignoring you as much as simply avoiding the inevitable downward spiral of subjective v. objective arguments. There are a million other threads for that.

 Perhaps another spin to your question should be have you listened to different capacitors to assess their possible effect on sound? Since everyone else on this thread has actually tried different caps, it may help to do the same (if you have not already done so).


----------



## wushuliu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In general, bypass only if you are not happy with the sound! 
 If you feel your VCap Oil needs extra air/speed/definition, VCap teflon (or other teflon) bypass can be considered. Nobody can say for sure how your results will be, so only thing you can do is try and see.._

 

Jon, as mundane as it may sound have you tried any of the Dayton Film and Foil bypass caps? So many people have said great things about them and they are inexpensive...


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wushuliu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure you realize no one is ignoring you as much as simply avoiding the inevitable downward spiral of subjective v. objective arguments. There are a million other threads for that.

 Perhaps another spin to your question should be have you listened to different capacitors to assess their possible effect on sound? Since everyone else on this thread has actually tried different caps, it may help to do the same (if you have not already done so)._

 

nope, i'm ignoring him; anyone who has been a member here as long as he has and still comes into such a long surviving thread to make a post like that is only looking to stir the pot.


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I* fully understand that my post *will be more* or less *ignored *at this point_

 

Why do these people bother?


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do these people bother?_

 

who knows 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 classic


----------



## Jon L

AmpOhm Polyester In Oil Aluminum Foil Capacitor







 It’s always very interesting to compare two essentially identical capacitors that have but one difference. In this case, one is comparing oil-impregnated polyester vs. dry polyester used as dielectric. The dry polyester film AmpOhm, as noted previously, is a very clear, detailed, and “present” capacitor, especially in the midrange; it will light a fire under dull, grey harmonics and shine a floodlight on lifeless contrasts. While quite appealing for good recordings played through meticulate systems, poor digital recordings tend to fare much worse. 

 The oil-impregnated version does some interesting things. It shaves off just a hair of gruff hardness to turn poor recordings just a bit more palatable while pushing out an ounce more girth and roundness. Recordings and passages that have that “ringing” or resonant quality are turned a little gentler and calmer. Normally, such changes would mean a warmer yet lower-resolution and slower sound signature; however, since the dry polyester capacitor has so much resolution and speed to burn, the oil version still sounds plenty detailed and fast despite a little enriching of the sonic tapestry. There’s no clear “better” or “worse” here, as I can imagine different people preferring one or the other depending on one’s tastes and how the system is voiced. At any rate, polyester film and polyester-in-oil capacitors represent a fascinating genre of capacitors, one that has the potential to offer superior sound quality to garden-variety polypropylene capacitors out there at comparable prices.


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

very impreesive sir, i wich i had your half your knowledge and expertise.

 do ou make any custom cables?

 do u think tubes sound better on denon 7000 as some say they are no made for tubes,

 and i prefer vinyl on tubes? how do you compare the signature difference between theem for vinyl


----------



## ecclesand

I have a stupid question...how do you bypass a cap with another cap? Is it simply soldering a smaller cap to the leads of a larger cap?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ecclesand* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a stupid question...how do you bypass a cap with another cap? Is it simply soldering a smaller cap to the leads of a larger cap?_

 

Well, that will technically work, but in practice, you may find it difficult to solder one cap's leadout wire to another cap's leadout and make a secure, clean connection. Usually takes lots of solder (bad) and likely will need to bend the lead to hook around the other lead, etc. I usually tend to solder both caps' lead to the same tab/tube pin, etc.


----------



## nattonrice

If it is on a pcb then the easiest thing to do is solder the bypassing cap on the underside of the board.


----------



## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, that will technically work, but in practice, you may find it difficult to solder one cap's leadout wire to another cap's leadout and make a secure, clean connection. Usually takes lots of solder (bad) and likely will need to bend the lead to hook around the other lead, etc. I usually tend to solder both caps' lead to the same tab/tube pin, etc._

 

Ah...I see. I'm using a pair of 2.7uF (or 3uF) capacitors (tried Auricaps and am currently using some Sonicaps Gen 1) as a passive output in my Lite DAC-AH and wanted to try some teflons, but they are way to expensive at that size. I read your review on the AudioCap Thetas bypassed with some Russian teflons and wanted to give that a try. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Seamaster

Anyone have thought on Modwright Caps? Thanks a lot!


----------



## Seamaster

Any love?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

Will be having a pair of JUPITER 2.2uf / 600V in my MHDT Labs Havana soon... Hope it will sound good.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

The order for JUPITER 2.2uf / 600V didn't materialized, a pair or V-Cap OIMP 2.0uf / 250V in order instead. ETA in week...


----------



## K3cT

This thread has been very informative so I thank you, Jon L for that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have a question though... do any of you here have experience using VCap TFTF in a bass boost circuit? I'm currently using a Soshin PIO but I could use a little bit more transparency in my DIY amp so I thought that the TFTF would be very suitable. Alternatively, the K75/VCap bypass also looks mighty interesting so I *COULD* try that but I don't know whether it's worth it for a bass boos circuit or not.


----------



## qusp

I have and I wouldnt recommend it so much, while TFTF caps have good bass extension, I wouldnt say they have the best bass texture or weight, I would recommend a copper foil cap or perhaps mundorf SIO instead if you wanna go all the way. I tried a TFTF VCAp in the bass boost on my ibasso FiQuest just the other day and while it worked rather well, I tested my Duelund copper foil in there and it wiped the floor with it, my mundorf SIO sounded great too. obviously i'm not actually using the duelund in the FiQuest, but I was just seeing how much different caps made a difference in this circuit, I ordered some silver mica for the actual job. I wish there was some copper foil caps small enough


----------



## K3cT

Which model of Duelund copper foil is that, qusp? I've been browsing their site and good lord, it looks so humongous that I doubt that it will fit inside the casing.


----------



## regal

I replaced a pair of Clarity Cap ESA with Jensen Aluminim/oil, this was a serious degrade in sound. Like a blanket was put up between me and the music. I bought the Jensens because they were the smalles .22uf oil cap on the market, its ashame they don't sound good. They are also as light as a feather compared to other oil caps of the same size.


----------



## regal

After the Jenson .22uF's I switched to .22uF JY40's, these were an improvement but the midrange was not as nice as the Clarity caps.

 Now I have the AmpOhm Copper P-I-O .22uF's, these are big and I had to raise my PCB and give up the flexibility to ever use an adapter for 7n7's tubes due to their circumfiance. But these caps are fantastic they have all the good qualities of the Clarity caps but much better, deeper, natural bass. If it weren't for this wonderful thread I would have never heard of them, they are truly fantastic caps.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I have the AmpOhm Copper P-I-O .22uF's, these are big and I had to raise my PCB and give up the flexibility to ever use an adapter for 7n7's tubes due to their circumfiance. But these caps are fantastic they have all the good qualities of the Clarity caps but much better, deeper, natural bass. If it weren't for this wonderful thread I would have never heard of them, they are truly fantastic caps._

 

It really is a shame AmpOhm company has closed its doors. I tried my best to spread the word, but it was too late I suppose. 

 BTW, you guys must have heard by now about the new VCap Copper Foil Teflon??


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It really is a shame AmpOhm company has closed its doors. I tried my best to spread the word, but it was too late I suppose. 
 [/URL]_

 

That is ashame this high end hybrid tube amp really shows the differences between caps, much more so than any other amp I've heard. It is designed so that the solid state buffer puts practically no load on the tube stage so all you hear is SE tube goodness and the cap. 

 The copper ampOhm's are way too big for their size and that may be why many didn't buy them, but forcing them to fit was the best decision I made for this amp.

 I haven't tried the Mundorf SIO, I assume this is the next best thing now that AmpOhm is gone?


----------



## qusp

got some 0.1uf CuTF in the mail the other day, will be putting them in my active monitors, will report back once i've lived with them for a while, fantastic build quality as usual and this time there is UPOCC copper leadouts and air-filed teflon dielectric


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got some 0.1uf CuTF in the mail the other day, will be putting them in my active monitors_

 

I imagine it will be hard to "hear" one cap if placed in a complicated, multi-part circuit..

 Many VCap TFTF users are sure to spend some quality time comparing to CuTF and come to their own conclusions in the coming months.


----------



## qusp

the actives are mainly being used for burn in really, the build I bought them for will not be ready for a little while. they will be input caps


----------



## errnst

Thanks to what i read on this thread, I just replaced my Conrad Johnson pv3 input caps with a couple of FT-3 teflon capacitors. There are still 2 capacitors in the line through the preamp that i am planning to replace as well.

 On ebay, there are .47uf 200 volt FT-3 caps that the seller claims are good for 1000 volts. I am wondering if anyone has any information to verify or correct this claim. 

 I am hoping to use these for a feedback loop and for the exit capacitors on this preamp. The parts list for the CJ pv3 preamp specifies 250 volt capacitors.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *errnst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On ebay, there are .47uf 200 volt FT-3 caps that the seller claims are good for 1000 volts. I am wondering if anyone has any information to verify or correct this claim. 

 I am hoping to use these for a feedback loop and for the exit capacitors on this preamp. The parts list for the CJ pv3 preamp specifies 250 volt capacitors._

 

It's always dangerous to use caps spec'd below your equipment spec. But there are people who have tried running higher voltage through these caps than rated and reported no failures. 

 Only problem in trusting this 100% is the fact their experiment is not going to simulate your own equipment's unique environment, how long the exposure is, etc.


----------



## jonnylazer

self deception doesnt really do this thread justice...
 the main difference is "liquidity."
 a bit richer and a smidge creamier.
 omg WOW


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jonnylazer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_self deception doesnt really do this thread justice...
 the main difference is "liquidity."
 a bit richer and a smidge creamier.
 omg WOW_

 



 What are you saying?


----------



## Bostonears

OK, who's going to start the "Orgy of Resistors" thread: Dale, Holco, Kiwame, Riken, Vishay, etc.?


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bostonears* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, who's going to start the "Orgy of Resistors" thread: Dale, Holco, Kiwame, Riken, Vishay, etc.?_

 

Resistor discussions certainly already do exist, with some interesting observations. This thread for example...
Tweakers' Asylum: The Inside Scoop by Dave B


----------



## regal

Well I have bad news to report on the Ampohm Copper P-I-O caps. After less than a month with 154V across as a coupling cap one of the pair would periodically leak a volt DC. This was a hybrid amp with a DC servoed buffer and luckily the E12 saved my headphones. It took a lot of troubleshooting to figure out what was going wrong. May be why ampohm ceased productions, but if you are using these without an e12 be careful.

 Not sure if it was a fluke or not, the sound so good I really want to order a replacement to match the good one but maybe I should just switch to the Mundorf S_I_O.


----------



## sachu

I am using Obbligatos in the above mentioned hybrid amp..works great. Haven't really bothered to try other caps..


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using Obbligatos in the above mentioned hybrid amp..works great. Haven't really bothered to try other caps.._

 

I had prior used theObbligatos , I found that this amp really shines with quality p-i-o, helps smooth a little with the complex passages. The KY40's and Jensen Aluminum are not good with this amp though. I'm going to bet I got a fluck bad cap and order a replacement AmpOhm, they sound incredible. They have the detail of the Obbligatos but help with the sharpness in the midbass.


----------



## sachu

Thanks for the input regal.
 But dang, those ampohms are spendy..Not going to get into it right now..


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the input regal.
 But dang, those ampohms are spendy..Not going to get into it right now.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

They are actually the least expensive p-i-o caps going, they quit making them so they won't be around for long.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I have bad news to report on the Ampohm Copper P-I-O caps. After less than a month with 154V across as a coupling cap one of the pair would periodically leak a volt DC. T_

 

Interesting. I haven't had any problems with the myriad of AmpOhms so far. What tends to cause problems is usually not the constant voltage but the higher turn-on transients and possibly temperature. Do you know what kind of turn-on transient voltage and temperature you are getting?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting. I haven't had any problems with the myriad of AmpOhms so far. What tends to cause problems is usually not the constant voltage but the higher turn-on transients and possibly temperature. Do you know what kind of turn-on transient voltage and temperature you are getting?_

 

B+ is only 300V's, turn on is pretty slow with the 5AR4 rectifier. The most it can swing with audio AC is 20V's. I think I just got a dud, I ordered a replacement. Since this amp has a SS buffer w/ DC offset nulling servo it is very sensitive to any DC leakage from the coupling caps, my only concern is this problem is more widespread with these caps and no one has noticed.


----------



## earplay

You know, it looks to me like AmpOhm is back in production. I googled "ampohm" and found an apparently active manufacturer's site, including contact info and product lists. In addition, I found AmpOhm retailers, too, including digi-key. 

 Also, found an article on Electronicstalk titled, "Cornish component maker resurrected by GSPK". Article dated 2006.


----------



## zycomatique

Hello Jon L
   
  I d'like to replace the input capacitor (2.2uf) in my amplifier: what high quality choice do you recommand me?
   
  K75-10 with vcap teflon or a new product like mundorf, obbligato, ampohm or duelund etc...???
   
  The v cap teflon is the best choice for K75-10 or the results are also good with russian teflon caps?
   
  Thanks: David


----------



## h.rav

Has anyone tried any of Modwright Instruments caps?


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





zycomatique said:


> Hello Jon L
> 
> I d'like to replace the input capacitor (2.2uf) in my amplifier: what high quality choice do you recommand me?
> 
> K75-10 with vcap teflon or a new product like mundorf, obbligato, ampohm or duelund etc...???


 

 2.2 uF caps will be huge for those like mundorf SIO, ampohm, duelend.  Unless you have huge room to work with, polypropylene caps from Obbligato, Dynamicap, Jantzen, etc will more likely fit in the space.  These sound good also..


----------



## Face

Quote: 





h.rav said:


> Has anyone tried any of Modwright Instruments caps?


 

 I've been very curious about these as well, too bad they wouldn't fit in my preamp.  Instead I'll stick with my Sonic Cap Platinums.


----------



## zycomatique

Thanks,
   
  No problem with huge capacitors my amp is a DIY one and I have to built a new chassis then space is not a problem.
   
   
  Have a good day: David


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





regal said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
  K just about getting ready to try these ampohms..but think i can only spring for the Tin foil ones..the copper ones are nearly 75% more.. Is the copper foil version really that much better?


----------



## regal

Sachu the reason I bought the copper is because the Jenson Aluminum foil sound terrible vs their copper,  the copper AmpOhms were cheaper than the copper Jensons so I chose Copper AmpOhms and am very pleased.   My guess is aluminum is a big step down on p-i-o caps but I can't say for sure.
   
   
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> K just about getting ready to try these ampohms..but think i can only spring for the Tin foil ones..the copper ones are nearly 75% more.. Is the copper foil version really that much better?


----------



## sachu

Regal..you mentioned that you had tried the obbligattos..could you please mention how the ampohms are sperior..what exactly did they improve over the other?


----------



## sachu

buggers..just placed an order for 2 each of the 0.22uF  Polyester in Aluminum foil and Copper PIOs..I hope the purchase is going to be worth it.


----------



## regal

less harsh midbass, more realistic midrange
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Regal..you mentioned that you had tried the obbligattos..could you please mention how the ampohms are sperior..what exactly did they improve over the other?


----------



## sachu

Cool..thanks regal..This is promising...does it take away the openess and detail retrieval in the highs? I must say i never found my system lacking in the midrange..quite the contrary i must say..but this is probably down to me using real headphones (aka planars) unlike the grados 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But still, if it means even better midrange..wow ..this is going to be exciting.
   
  seems they have had to delay my order cause they are out of the copper foil caps..looks like i'll have to wait a coupleof weeks..but upside is they promise me very closely matched pairs.


----------



## sachu

The first pair arrived today. 
  Man these are huge!! The Obbliggattos are puny in comparison. Going to switch them out, make sure outer foil is seeing the input (tube side) and going to burn them in for a good 100 hours in the amp before listening. Fortunately, I have another Stacker 2 to keep me occupied in the mean time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Edit: Installed in the red Stacker 2..sounds pretty good off the bat but does sound a tad unrefined. Going to let it burn and settle in for a bit before critical listening.


----------



## Boarder

Hi Jon of anyone with an opinion,
   
  I'm thinking of using K75-10's or K40y's in a XO for Yamaha ns-1000's. At the moment it's already equiped with MGBO (20 uF), K42Y (3,5 uF) and Sprague (2,7uF). My friends speakers are still original.
   
  The question is about bypassing them. Which teflons should I use: FT-1, FT-3, K72?
   
  Or do you have a complete other advise for a nice price. I checked the Ampohm's, but they are not cheap in these values.


----------



## smithie

hi guys
  this  thread/shootout has been a great  asset  to me in narrowing down some choices of caps to try.
  for me in most cases ive gone with the various ampohm caps as these have been so much more then the price asked for them in the gear i use and ive managed to squeeze them all in some how.
  of course i was quite gutted to hear of there demise...but theres a light at the end of the tunnel,and it comes in the shape of a company called..
http://www.audiocap.co.uk/  this is where ive always brought my caps from,i have no connection/shares or vested intrest in this company,ive only been impressed by the service and product i have recieved from the owner matthew, anyway heres the light and a reply to a question i put to matthew....
   
quote..
   
Yes we will be continuing the production of the Ampohm capacitors, with the same materials, same design and same engineer. At this stage we have the paper-in-oil alu-foil and paper-in-oil copper-foil in production.
   
We are trying very hard to get the polyester-in-oil caps back into production (we receive two or three enquiries a day for these!) The process is being held up by a worldwide shortage of quality polyester film (materials shortages are causing EVERY cap manufacturer problems at the moment). In any case, we hope to have these back in production by September/October at the latest.
   
     Best regards,
   
*Matthew Campbell*
*



*
*AudioCap** Limited*
   
  i hope im not alone in thinking we need to keep these caps alive!!!
  all the best smithie


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





boarder said:


> Hi Jon of anyone with an opinion,
> 
> I'm thinking of using K75-10's or K40y's in a XO for Yamaha ns-1000's. At the moment it's already equiped with MGBO (20 uF), K42Y (3,5 uF) and Sprague (2,7uF). My friends speakers are still original.
> 
> ...


 

 For bypass in speaker XO, FT-1 would be fine.  You don't need the higher voltage rating of FT-3.  

  
  Quote: 





smithie said:


> hi guys
> this  thread/shootout has been a great  asset  to me in narrowing down some choices of caps to try.
> for me in most cases ive gone with the various ampohm caps as these have been so much more then the price asked for them in the gear i use and ive managed to squeeze them all in some how.
> of course i was quite gutted to hear of there demise...but theres a light at the end of the tunnel,and it comes in the shape of a company called..
> ...


 

 That's great news about Audiocap.co.uk.  Too bad about polyester, though.  Very nice caps those..


----------



## Boarder

Hi Jon,
   
  Thanks for the advise. I'm glad I already decided on those 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I've put a pair in my dac today. I looks like it gave some extra, but they have to settle in first.
   
  In the xo, do I use them on my highs only, or on the mids and lows as well?


----------



## Lil' Knight

Jon, Have you ever tried bypassing with more than 2 caps? I'm thinking of bypassing the V-cap OIMP 4.7uf with Russian FT-3 0.47uf, but I found a pair of Jensen copper foil 0.056uf in my part bin. Just wondering if it'd be OK by bypassing the Vcap with the FT-3 and Jensen?


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





lil' knight said:


> Jon, Have you ever tried bypassing with more than 2 caps? I'm thinking of bypassing the V-cap OIMP 4.7uf with Russian FT-3 0.47uf, but I found a pair of Jensen copper foil 0.056uf in my part bin. Just wondering if it'd be OK by bypassing the Vcap with the FT-3 and Jensen?


 

 I've tried it, but the main use for multiple bypasses is for really large caps usually, like those 47 uF power supply caps.  With OIMP and FT-3 bypass, I would personally go with a smaller FT-1 to bypass those b/c after a certain point, the various flavors of different types of caps can lead a really confusing sonic soup.  In addition, PIO's don't usually have the best extreme high-frequency characteristic useful for bypass IME,  but it doesn't cost anything to try different combo's and see what you like best, so go for it!


----------



## aspenx

Does anyone have experience with Elna caps that are labeled "Onkyo Integra"? I am looking to replace my 4700uF 50V Nichicon KG (M) reservoir caps in the PSU and was wondering if a similarly specced Elna Onkyo Integra cap will be better for the duty and in what aspect. Also, how might the sound be affected?
   
  Internals pic from a Onkyo A-925 for reference (15000uF 63V though):


----------



## aspenx

Bump. Are the caps I'm asking about too "mundane" or is it just that the orgy is over?


----------



## regal

Those are relabel elna caps made for Onkyo,  so I doubt anyone has experience with them or even a datasheet.


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





regal said:


> Those are relabel elna caps made for Onkyo,  so I doubt anyone has experience with them or even a datasheet.


 

 So, would you reckon these are close to Cerafines or anything like that? The blue reminds me of the RE3 series though...


----------



## FallenAngel

For PSU duties and in those sized, I would personally go with Panasonic TS-HA if I needed to recap... or Nichicon KG if I was in the mood for "fancy".


----------



## regal

Has anyone tried to bypass a FT-3 (say .2uF) with a small KY40 (.033 uF) ?   I've heard going the other way around but I've got an interstage coupling cap application where I may try this.


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





regal said:


> Has anyone tried to bypass a FT-3 (say .2uF) with a small KY40 (.033 uF) ?   I've heard going the other way around but I've got an interstage coupling cap application where I may try this.


 

 I've tried something similar, but unless you think the FT-3 is too clean or hot in your system, adding the PIO bypass will only detract from the excellent teflon-cap extension..


----------



## Jon L

*[size=10.5pt]V-Cap CuTF (Copper Foil Teflon Film)[/size]**[size=10.5pt]Capacitor[/size]*




   
  This is the new “reference” capacitor from VH Audio, utilizing cryo’d oxygen-Free high conductivity copper foil in Teflon film, finished with 18 AWG solid core high purity OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) copper with VH Audio’s AirLok insulation.  The description spells “expensive,” and indeed the new CuTF capacitor is about 50% more expensive than the V-Cap TFTF (tin foil Teflon).   
   
  Obviously, people would like to know if the CuTF is worth the surcharge over TFTF, and the short answer would be a resounding “it depends.”  First of all, these new V Caps sound nothing like any other capacitors I have tested so far, and I spent a lot of time comparing them to some of the best of the crop, including Aura-T teflons and V-Cap TFTF. 

 There are two things that strike me the most about the new caps. 

 Their sound has significantly more robust body compared to Aura-T or VCap TFT, giving you a more of an anchor around the mid-midrange, as opposed to more of upper-midrange/treble anchoring of Aura-T or TFT.  I know there are some people who feel  Teflon caps are "lean" in low-midrange/upper-bass area, which I don't really agree with.  However, with the new caps, one tends to realize how much more music resides in this area.  However, this does not mean this area is exaggerated or bloated like overcompensated  bass-reflex 2-way bookshelf speakers because linearity and transparency are excellent throughout all the ranges. 

 The other thing that makes an impression is just how DETAILED these capacitors are.  Once again, combined with robust density, detail resolution is unparalleled, especially in the mid-midrange region.  Other capacitors that I love, including Mundorf silver-in-oil and AmpOhm PIO, just cannot compete with the amount of detail in these areas.  The good oils types tend to "massage" out recordings' rough edges slightly for beauty, but bad recordings have nowhere to hide with the new caps.  This also means top-notch recordings with top-notch equipment WILL show you things you've never heard before, so be careful with where you use these new caps.  With power comes responsibility, as they say.

 There's no need to mention other usual parameters such as bass, dynamics, imaging, soundstaging, etc because these aspects are in line with what's best out there.  It's just that the special combination of extraordinary  body and resolution just does not exist anywhere else.  Another quality to note  is that unlike certain teflons and "audiophile" caps, there does not seem to be any *extra* sheen or highlighting of the uppermost frequencies to flatter dull recording/systems.  If your system has been tuned to sound just right around these more "flashy" caps, you may need to re-tune your system with the new VCaps in place, but the effort would be worth it.   
   
  So should you rush out and throw out your previously favorite caps, perhaps even V-Cap TFTF to use the CuTF?  Well, if you don’t mind the expenditure and are curious, by all means try them.  However, all the caps discussed before, including TFTF, are still just as good and rewarding today as they were before, and the availability of CuTF does not diminish those other great caps. As with all things in audio, just realize that everything depends on overall system/room synergy and personal tastes.


----------



## regal

Those things are rediculously expensive,  sorry just had to get that out of my system


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





regal said:


> Those things are rediculously expensive,  sorry just had to get that out of my system


 

 Yup.  Good news is there are tons of nice capacitors that are relatively cheap.  BTW, what the heck are you doing awake at this hour?!
   
  Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention how the addition of Stax Omega II to my stable has expanded my evaluative capacity.


----------



## Jon L

*AmpOhm Aluminum Foil Paper In Wax Capacitor*
   




   
   
  Jupiter beewax capacitors have impressed me positively in the past, leading the way for the comeback of beewax capacitors in modern times.  However, Jupiters were notoriously susceptible to heat, and if they were installed near hot resistors or tubes, they were prone to failures.  As I have written before, they have recently come out with a “High Temperature”(HT) version, and they are designed to be much more resistant to heat. 
   
  I was somewhat surprised to see that AmpOhm also made paper-in-wax capacitors, and at $12.75, they were much cheaper than Jupiters, which are around $35.  I was hoping to find another great budget capacitor, so in they went after the usual burn-in.
   
  The overall sound of AmpOhm paper-in-wax was even and pleasant, with no part of the spectrum jumping out and biting off your ears.  This is a great capacitor for tweaking an overly-bright or analytical system to more forgiving side, allowing one to enjoy a larger portion of poorly-recorded albums.  The flipside was that great recordings could not reach the heights that tweaked Teflon caps can achieve; there just seemed to be a finite limit on how much resolution and transparency was available.  It’s not really fair to compare any cap’s resolution to teflons, but that’s how it goes around here.
   
  Just to make sure my ears had not gone sour, I popped in my old Jupiter beewax caps, and yes, I still liked them very much.  At almost triple the AmpOhm’s price, Jupiters had a more forward, detailed stance with more “obvious” high treble twinkle and midbass energy.  Still not in teflon territory in resolution, but this didn’t detract me from enjoying the music.  For headphone fans, Jupiters really reminded me of Grado headphones, especially the new PS1000, in presentation while AmpOhm reminded me somewhat of Sennheiser HD6xx series powered by a polite headamp.  Still, if you want a forgiving paper-in-wax cap that costs much less than Jupiter, AmpOhm is the only game in town, and it’s built like a tank just like the paper-in-oil caps, not feeling like a soft candlestick like Jupiter caps, the older version anyway.


----------



## emersonwikog

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif






It's quite useful, Thanks for the posting, If only had got it earlier!


----------



## Jon L

*ClarityCap MR Polypropylene Capacitor*
   




   
  Claritycap line of capacitors has a large following and has a reputation for great sound at bargain prices, with the SA, PX, and ESA lines selling in $3-8 range at the popular 0.22 uF range, for example.  My previous impression of ClarityCap SA, at a few dollars, was that of a pleasant, rounded sound lacking in ultimate resolution. The MR series costs 10 times as much as the SA yet still comes in at a low price compared to the exotic competition.   
   
According to the website, the ClairyCap MR “is manufactured in such a way to substantially reduce the negative effects of resonance on sonic quality which is inherent in a wound component. This results in a sonic characteristic which is difficult to equal. Manufactured from metallised polypropylene film the component is housed in a coloured acrylic tube and encapsulated in an epoxy resin to assist in the overall sonic performance.”
   
Whatever they did performed some major transformation to the sound, as the MR sounds nothing like SA, sounding far more extended, neutral, dynamic, and yes, resolved.  As far as frequency extension, there is nothing to fault here, as both top and bottom go as high and low as can be desired; however, what’s even more impressive is how all the ranges in between seem coherent, finely-textured, and natural, with nothing sticking out like a sore thumb.  I kept thinking how smooth everything sounds while presenting a high degree of detail resolution across the frequency range, as good as a polypropylene cap gets including the exotic ones from Mundorf, etc. 
   
Another benefit of this smooth precision seems to be outstanding imaging and separation within the soundstage, which is filled with air and “space”.  No smudging and blending together of instruments into blobs, which can happen with less precise caps.  These characteristics enable the MR to sound like the proverbial “no cap” better than most, if not all, polypropylene caps I have tested.  In fact, the MR sounds less colored than quite a few exotics, including some teflons, PIO’s, polystyrene, etc.  There is a downside to this neutrality, however, as the MR may not be the cap to shave off some rough edges from a bright source, plump up the low-midrange of that lean amp, or add extra “wetness” to that dry solid-state system.  But if your system is reasonably neutral and resolute and if you don’t want to “hear the cap” at a reasonable price, then the ClarityCap MR just may be the cap you have been waiting for.


----------



## Mad Max




----------



## Salectric

I have a couple questions for Jon L. about the CuTF caps. 
   
  First, how long did they take to fully break in?  And did they go through a "lean bass" phase during the break in?  With the regular TFTF V-Caps, I noticed that the bass was great to begin with, but entered a lean phase after maybe 75-100 hours and the bass did not come in fully until around the 450 hours mark. 
   
  Second, after the CuTF caps are fully broken in, do they have as much bass weight as the regular V-Caps or do they sound somewhat lean?
   
  I am asking these questions because I have a set of new amps with CuTF couplers.  The bass was great initially (consistent with your comment about "robust body"), but the sound became significantly leaner around 300 hours (later than regular V-Caps).  The amps now have about 475 hours and the tonal balance hasn't changed that I can tell since the 300 mark.  I am just wondering if this is the way it will be, or whether I can look forward to some changes.
   
  This is my first post on this forum.  It looks like a great place.
   
  Dave


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





salectric said:


> I have a couple questions for Jon L. about the CuTF caps.
> 
> First, how long did they take to fully break in?  And did they go through a "lean bass" phase during the break in?  With the regular TFTF V-Caps, I noticed that the bass was great to begin with, but entered a lean phase after maybe 75-100 hours and the bass did not come in fully until around the 450 hours mark.
> 
> ...


 

 None of the VCap teflons, tin or copper, can be described as "bassy" caps, but that's because there is no bass slop or muddyness to give the impression of more bass quantity.  I wouldn't say CuTFnecessarily has more bass quantity than tin, but the tonality from top to bottom is warmer and richer.  At any rate, it shouldn't sound leaner than tin teflon after eventual break-in, to which I cannot give an exact number of hours.  Unless you compared the Cu and Tin of same value in same amp, it's going to be hard to really compare bass.  Also, make sure the uF value is adequate (hopefully by a big margin) in your application in order to avoid early bass rolloff.


----------



## Salectric

Thanks for the reply.
   
  Dave


----------



## zibra

hello
  I want to buy best quality/price caps for DAC tube output. I was told that obbligato caps are very nice. What else can I look for? I need great imaging and holographic soundstage most. Any recommendation for best bang for buck caps?


----------



## Dynobot

Excellent video concerning caps by Sonic State ...ClarityCaps
   
  http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2008/05/27/aes08-if-the-cap-fits-it-must-sound-better/


----------



## earwaxxer

I have been "cap rolling" now for a bit. Kind of addictive, but fun! I hacked out the crossovers and wires in my Maggie MMG's. I have used -. 1st was - Jantzen Superior Z - 15uF, then Obbilgato premium 22uF, now AmpOhm paper in oil, aluminum foil - with most recent addition! - Mundorf silver/oil 2.2uf as bypass. Note - two ampohm 10uf plus mundorf in paralell. Many months to years in between each. What I have been most surprised with is the addition of the Mundorfs. I had them kicking around and thought to add as a bypass although it did add 2.2uf.
   
  For sure there was progress realized in the above experiment, with each step. What I would do now. Go directly to the Mundorf silver/oil and dont look back! I can say I really like the AmpOhm, and even more with the Mundorf in the circuit. The Obbilgato is not in the same league IMO. The Obbligato tends to muddy things up a bit. Thats where that "analog" impression comes from. I also used the Mundorf silver/oil in my t-amp with very good results. I was going to do a second amp, thats where I came up with the "spare" pair of 2.2's.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

For those considering replacement mains filter caps (polarized electrolytic types) I have been majorly impressed by Mundorf AG or AG+ M'Lytics (compared to Nichicon KG Type II's and a number of others like Nichicon FG/FW/HE/ Panny FM etc).
   
   
  Also for lower V applications ( < 160V) the Vishay-Roderstein MKP-1837 metalized poly box caps are really quite amazing bypass caps...not as good as Teflon or the best PIO types but surprisingly good for the low cost. A .1uf 160V type can be had for 2 dollars ea. The Mundorf caps are not cheap but well worth the cost ....they are as close to the venerable the BG WK series as I've heard (for PSU filtering duties) yet. The new Mundorf AG+ series looks to be a major improvement over the AG series.
   
   
   
  Peete.


----------



## colinharding

You guys need to try some more vintage caps!! That's where I've found all of the good stuff anyway.  My favorite new caps are the hovland musicaps for sure, nice heavy musical and weighty sound.  I really am not a fan of the "audiophile" thin and extended yet "detailed" sound so many companies are tailoring to today.  The best caps of all time IMHO have to be the old Aerovox oil and paper, incredibly open but without any piercing highs.  Make sure you get the vintage though as their newer caps are not as good by any means. I have also tried the audio note silver caps, and man are those expensive!  $1000 bucks for a .1mf at 600vdc but I may be wrong.  They are quite nice, as should be expected from the price, but don't match the Aerovox in terms of weight and musicality.  Greenies are also nice and are right below my Aerovox choice, the "Budroc" ceramic version would be right below those but are a bit tight for my taste.  Most Cornell Dubiliers are very nice though.  Sprague is always a great choice.  The end all be all are Western Electric caps but good luck trying to get your hands on a decently priced pair.  A lot of you seem to really like the Mundorf but I just don't hear it for whatever reason.  I had a lot of old Hafler equipment (pre 80's were there best products) that had Mundorf that were actually made in Germany that sounded great!  I believe they are all made in China now, but I may be dreaming that up haha.  Anyway, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.


----------



## flu_fighter

I have a question for Jon L regarding the K75-10 bypassed with the Vcaps teflon caps. How is the PRAT for this particular combination?


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





flu_fighter said:


> I have a question for Jon L regarding the K75-10 bypassed with the Vcaps teflon caps. How is the PRAT for this particular combination?


 


  Hmm.  I would say PRAT is not as good as Vcap teflon by itself but better than K75 by itself or most PIO's by themselves.  If one plays lots of rock/electronica/dance, one can certainly get better PRAT thann K75/Vcap combo.


----------



## flu_fighter

Thanks for the reply Jon. What would you suggest for a similar sounding combo that has better PRAT?
   
  I am looking at values of 3.3uf 250volts, but with limited space in the chassis.
  
  Quote: 





jon l said:


> Hmm.  I would say PRAT is not as good as Vcap teflon by itself but better than K75 by itself or most PIO's by themselves.  If one plays lots of rock/electronica/dance, one can certainly get better PRAT thann K75/Vcap combo.


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





flu_fighter said:


> I am looking at values of 3.3uf 250volts, but with limited space in the chassis.


 
  How about something like this?  Good caps, neutral with good PRAT and small..
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/2PCS-3-3uF-250V-VISHAY-ERO-MKP-1845-Polypropylene-Caps-/350336451398


----------



## flu_fighter

Thanks Jon, I decided to go with the K75-10 bypassed with the FT1s first, afterall they are cheap, so it would not hurt to try out that combo. Will try what you recommended me if I feel that K75-10 combo is too slow for me.
   
  Quote: 





jon l said:


> How about something like this?  Good caps, neutral with good PRAT and small..
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2PCS-3-3uF-250V-VISHAY-ERO-MKP-1845-Polypropylene-Caps-/350336451398


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Funny I don't find the K75-10/FT1 combo slow at all and I'm using planar magnetic/ribbon speakers which tend to expose any and all flaws upstream without exception. That combination takes a bloody long time to burn in however, many hundreds of hours before they settle for good. The combination will sound weird at times for a long time, have patience during this period.....when they finally settle though ...the combo sounds terrific (especially with tube gear). For the cost it's the best bang for buck combo going IMHO ...I much prefer them to CD or Sprague Vit Q (vintage stuff) but that's just me.
   
  All Mundorf caps are made in Germany...the lower cost MKP series (white casing with red lettering) is one of the most counterfeited caps in the Far East (for good reason). The knock offs do not sound anything like the real deal unfortunately.
   
  What gear are you using flu_fighter ?
   
  Peete.


----------



## flu_fighter

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Funny I don't find the K75-10/FT1 combo slow at all and I'm using planar magnetic/ribbon speakers which tend to expose any and all flaws upstream without exception. That combination takes a bloody long time to burn in however, many hundreds of hours before they settle for good. The combination will sound weird at times for a long time, have patience during this period.....when they finally settle though ...the combo sounds terrific (especially with tube gear). For the cost it's the best bang for buck combo going IMHO ...I much prefer them to CD or Sprague Vit Q (vintage stuff) but that's just me.
> 
> All Mundorf caps are made in Germany...the lower cost MKP series (white casing with red lettering) is one of the most counterfeited caps in the Far East (for good reason). The knock offs do not sound anything like the real deal unfortunately.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm using the Eastern Electric Minimax Dac ---> Schiit Lyr ----> LCD2.
   
  I am going to try out the K75-10/TF1 combo for the tube coupling cabs for the Eastern Electric Minimax dac


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





flu_fighter said:


> I'm using the Eastern Electric Minimax Dac ---> Schiit Lyr ----> LCD2.
> 
> I am going to try out the K75-10/TF1 combo for the tube coupling cabs for the Eastern Electric Minimax dac


 

 That should work very well......try and measure if any DC offset is present at the DAC's outputs (before and after the cap swap). If it's very low (less than 5 mV) then no need to worry but if it's high (greater than 8 mV) you may need to add bleeder resistors (use very HQ slit foil types for this application). I know a lot of folks do not believe shunt resistors have a sonic effect but in my experience they absolutely have an impact if of course you have to tame some DC offset. It's best not to add stuff when it is not needed...less is more in some instances.
   
  Peete.


----------



## flu_fighter

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> That should work very well......try and measure if any DC offset is present at the DAC's outputs (before and after the cap swap). If it's very low (less than 5 mV) then no need to worry but if it's high (greater than 8 mV) you may need to add bleeder resistors (use very HQ slit foil types for this application). I know a lot of folks do not believe shunt resistors have a sonic effect but in my experience they absolutely have an impact if of course you have to tame some DC offset. It's best not to add stuff when it is not needed...less is more in some instances.
> 
> Peete.


 
   
  Thanks Peete, finally got my caps and had them installed in my dac. Pre-burn in impressions: I'd say this combo does kinda make my dac sound sorta close to vinyl, but they still sound kinda rough around the edges. Still needs a lot of burn in. 
   
  What's the burn in time like? Ballpark figure?


----------



## Pandro

Quote: 





jon l said:


> None of the VCap teflons, tin or copper, can be described as "bassy" caps, but that's because there is no bass slop or muddyness to give the impression of more bass quantity.  I wouldn't say CuTFnecessarily has more bass quantity than tin, but the tonality from top to bottom is warmer and richer.  At any rate, it shouldn't sound leaner than tin teflon after eventual break-in, to which I cannot give an exact number of hours.  Unless you compared the Cu and Tin of same value in same amp, it's going to be hard to really compare bass.  Also, make sure the uF value is adequate (hopefully by a big margin) in your application in order to avoid early bass rolloff.


 

 You hit on something that has had me curious: just exactly what is recommended for optimizing (increasing, refining, deepening) bass in the uF value adjustment for coupling caps?  Is there a rule-of-thumb? ....like doubling the capacitance of the original cap, ....for a .22uF, bump it up to .47uF ??  Can this also cause problems, like a frequency shift at the top end?  For an amp, is there a situation when this is ill advised?  Please elaborate. Thanks.


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





pandro said:


> You hit on something that has had me curious: just exactly what is recommended for optimizing (increasing, refining, deepening) bass in the uF value adjustment for coupling caps?  Is there a rule-of-thumb? ....like doubling the capacitance of the original cap, ....for a .22uF, bump it up to .47uF ??  Can this also cause problems, like a frequency shift at the top end?  For an amp, is there a situation when this is ill advised?  Please elaborate. Thanks.


 

 Try reading this thread for more info:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/51667-formula-calculating-value-capacitor.html
   
  However, there is a lot of room for ranges, wiggle room, and just "HOW FLAT to 20 Hz."  In general, 0.22-0.47 uF are the values used most, and going from 0.22 to 0.47 won't end up with a big difference in subjective sound quality or bass extension.  As you go with larger caps, the cost goes up, and you ARE going through more "stuff" (capacitor foils and dielectric), so theoretically you don't want to oversize caps way too much for no good reason.


----------



## John In Cali

Alright this seems more of a crossover cap discussion but i think some of the equations might help with power supply filtering.  I have a hard time ordering stuff online(no credit card) so im stuck with Radioshack but im not one of those audiophiles that worries about 1%.  How much capacitance should i use for a cMoy(for now) pushing either headphones from 32-55 ohm with 25.4 volts full wave rectified transformer.  I think the easiest way to figure this out would be using a low pass calculator, i guess im aiming for 12 DB at 30Khz which would be enough filtering to not mess up anything important.  Im wondering what values i should enter for ohms on the calculator, im guessing the lowest load the amp will push.
  Thanks and i understand i should be using a chip based power circuit put again im limited to radioshack.


----------



## bleeif

Jon
  Great review a big commitment of time and energy.
   Your common sense approach is very refreshing in these tech spec times we live in.
   in your review i did not notice the uf values of the Bypass caps you used
  0.33uf ? or larger
  What percentage were the bypass caps? were they a percentage of the caps they were bypassing?
  When you mentioned Solens that was  usal choice for bypass with Mundorf Silver Oils
  What series of Solens they make 3 or more series  PPExx 630 v series?  
  Thanks again for your good honest work
     
  Dr B.


----------



## earwaxxer

Hey Dr. B - Just plugged back into this thread to see if there was any new stuff. Fascinating topic! IMO and experience, as far as bypass caps, its a real c(r)ap shoot! I have used Mundorf silver/oils as bypass on my speakers with very good results when bypassing Ampohm paper/oils but not good with Obbligatto's. As far as the value, I dont think it really matters. The main thing is that the bypass cap is a 'small value' compared to the cap it is bypassing. I would try small (cheaper) values first. Good luck! I think the bottom line is dont bypass unless you hear a distinct improvement. It could do more harm than good.


----------



## lehmanhill

Jon L,
   
  Not sure if you are still following this thread.
   
  I am a little curious about bypass caps.  I notice that you have used polypropolene caps and teflon caps as bypass caps, but haven't used polystyrene caps that I am aware of.  Any reason why styrene caps would be a good choice?  They would seem like a nice in-between choice that might blend well with certain caps.
   
  I have also seen you write that you only bypass a cap when you are not happy with its performance.  Last I knew, you're favorite coupling cap were V-cap teflon.  Do you prefer a V-cap alone, or a rich sounding non-teflon with a small teflon bypass to sweeten the detail?


----------



## Jon L

Quote: 





lehmanhill said:


> Jon L,
> 
> Not sure if you are still following this thread.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Styrene caps can make nice bypass caps as well, but as usual it can be hit-or-miss depending on the situation.
   
  Looking around to see what I'm doing with bypasses in various gear currently, I've got:
   
  VCap CuTF bypassed with Russian FT-1 teflons in single-ended pentode amp
  Jantzen Superior Z bypassed by FT-3 teflons in output buffer
  Penta Lab Teflons bypassed with Aura-T teflon in First Watt B-1 preamp
  AudioCap Theta bypassed by FT-1 teflon in SET coupling
  Siemens MKV aluminum in oil cap bypassed by VCap TFT in parallel feed output
  VCap teflon bypassed by FT-1 in tube preamp
   
  I don't really have a set "favorite," but I do favor small FT-1 as bypasses in many situations because they usually don't do harm and can help.


----------



## lehmanhill

I will add one thought to the bypass topic.  Recently, I've been using a 1 uF K75-10 bypassed by a 1 nF Amtrans polyprop because it was what was available and it is sounding very nice.  I have some FT-1s on order, but if you are looking to try a polyprop, the Amtrans is a really nice film/foil polyprop that is available in sizes up to 8.2 nF.  They tend to be $2 or $3 from PCX and the only problem is that they are radial caps, which is a lead challenge for big caps like the K75.


----------



## zibra

Anyone tried Audyn Reference caps? I hear very little info about it. Reveiew at Humble site was very positive.
  Maybe lower series of Audyn Plus would be good enough for me? Im asking because I need big caps - about 4uF at DAC outputs. Ive tested a lot of old caps, Russian MBGO, K75-24, Sprague in metal box (big), Siemens MKV etc. but havent tested any modern good quality caps.
  I can only say that these big Sprague caps were the best for my tastes - gave great holographic sound and depth to music with good separation. They were only slightly creamy and lil softer sounding but I preferred it much more than MKV which sound dry in comparision and without that acoustic type of performance.


----------



## WizardKnight

Have read on the Internet that some people say the Duelund Cast Capacitors are the best they have ever heard. Hope someday you might consider reviewing them Jon L.


----------



## viski111

Hi,
   
  can anyone suggests which caps could/should be replaced in Primare I30?
  Are four Vishay 1845 in pre-amp stage the right ones?
   
  BR


----------



## lehmanhill

Quote: 





zibra said:


> Anyone tried Audyn Reference caps? I hear very little info about it. Reveiew at Humble site was very positive.
> Maybe lower series of Audyn Plus would be good enough for me? Im asking because I need big caps - about 4uF at DAC outputs. Ive tested a lot of old caps, Russian MBGO, K75-24, Sprague in metal box (big), Siemens MKV etc. but havent tested any modern good quality caps.
> I can only say that these big Sprague caps were the best for my tastes - gave great holographic sound and depth to music with good separation. They were only slightly creamy and lil softer sounding but I preferred it much more than MKV which sound dry in comparision and without that acoustic type of performance.


 

 Caveat.  My experience, plus that of my friends, is at a somewhat lower value, as DC blocking, input caps and about 1 uF.
   
  I'm not sure what you mean by Audyn "Reference" caps.  I have personally compared Audyn True Copper to Mundorf ZN and Russian K71-4 styrene.  I have several friends who have compared them to many other caps.  One of those friends also tried the Audyn Plus caps.
   
  The consensus is that the True Copper caps are a big favorite of this bunch (although our little group hasn't tried as many or as exotic as Jon L has in this thread).  I would describe them as not perfect but a very good balance, especially for a polyprop cap.  One of their strong suits is bass (in fact, I found them a little too strong for my system, but others found the bass just right).  The bass is full and strong and clear.  At the same time, the detail and imaging are excellent.  The detail and high frequency are equal to the K71 styrene, but without the cooler feel that the K71 provides.  The mid range of the ZN is stronger, warmer by a little, but the mid of the TC is still quite nice.  I would say that the TC is better balanced across the frequency range than the ZN.  Finally, the soundstage of the TC is very nice, both wide and deep.  I will warn that, you might find the TCs to be a little orientation sensitive.  I know that not everyone believes in cap orientation, but I would suggest a careful experiment might be worth your time with the TC.
   
  For the Audyn Plus,  my friend says that he was very impressed for the money.  The detail and soundstage were quite good, although not quite as good as the TCs.  The bass was a little less and the overall sound a touch drier, but still quite nice.  They have one other advantage, if you are located in the US, Canada, etc.  Parts Express carries the Audyn Plus and you can get them quickly and for a low shipping cost.  If you want the True Copper or other higher end Audyn caps, you have to get them sent over from Europe.  That adds $30 or more to shipping and the stock of the high end caps is thin, even in Europe.  It usually takes 1 to 2 months, plus shipping, to buy these caps unless you are lucky and someone actually has them in stock.
   
  Good luck in your search.


----------



## zibra

Thank you. Looks like opinions regarding TC are similiar and show these are very good caps.
  Regarding Reference I was thinking about these Audyns:
   
  http://www.europe-audio.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=6194


----------



## lehmanhill

Thanks.  Somehow, I had skipped over those in the humble review.  I was pretty close to trying the ClarityCap MR before deciding on the True Coppers.  The Reference sound like a nice alternative to the MR.  Have fun deciding.


----------



## zibra

Im testing Mundorf Evo Oil at DAC outputs right now and also pulled trigger at Audyn Reference caps. Waiting for them. Ill share my opinion after listening test.


----------



## racoiaw

Hi guys, not sure if im asking in the right place.
   
  t i recently made a diymod LOD with elna silmic II caps but forgot to make sure the long sided is soldered towards the dap, so theres a possibility of reverse polarity.
   
  have used my diymod to an amp and then to my ciem for around a week before i remember i had to do that, but it was working fine.
   
  Would it be possible that my gear would be damaged? Read that reversing the polarity would cause it to function as a resistor instead and now im kinda worried if there will be long lasting damage


----------



## goodvibes

I don't get quite as caught up in this as I use SS kit but noticed that bypassing is being mentioned. I'm not a huge fan because off how the bypass can make things less cohesive. I do use them but find that there is no set ratio or type that always works best. There's a synergism required and why I said I'm not a huge fan. It's gotten to where it's almost a requirement for some folks and the compromise may have been a better one without if what's there is already good. I like when it's done well if needed but be careful and listen for when it's not as cohesive and don't just listen for what gets better.
   
  I tend to use smaller values that most when bypassing. Sometimes at an over 200-1 ratio as that's what will 'fix' what's there while not disturbing the whole. I also find voicing to be as/more important as the the absolute quality of the cap.
   
  To the OP. Nice descriptions and making folks aware of this. Most if not all those caps won't change the basic specs of the amps used while some can sound radically different. The specnocrats should try this just once to understand you can't hear everything on a graph.


----------



## tenorsaxophone

Hi,
  in your DIY capacitor burn-in setup, what resistor value do you use?
  And what signal type do you use? Perhaps white noise signal?
  Many thanks. Best regards.
  Davide.


----------



## zycomatique

Hi guys!
   
   
  there's new kids on the block!
   
   
http://lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_en.htm?http://lautsprechershop.de/hifi/rike_capacitor_oil_paper_en.htm


----------



## egosumlux

What kind of caps would you use for a DIY wolfson-equipped Ipod upgrade?


----------



## samoloko

has anyone listened to new Mundorf Evo serie


----------



## zibra

I heard Mundorf Evo Oil and these are very good for its price. Quite attractiv, direct sound with very good precision and quite good dynamics. plenty of space, very nice holographic possibilities. I like it more than much more expensive Mundorf Supreme. Also like it better than older types of russian caps because of that much better precision in sound.


----------



## samoloko

how would you compare Evo In Oil to Evo to Clarity Cap ESA to Obbligato Premium Gold


----------



## zibra

I cant honestly answer that question because I had Obbligato Gold Premium long time ago but Obbligato could sound little bit softer but also little bit smoother overall. I have now only Audyn Reference and these are reaaaly great caps. I truly advice you to invest in these caps if you dont need high capacitance or can afford for bigger. Probably Audyn True Copper is even better but I didnt compare it head to head.


----------



## samoloko

thank you for reply
  I am asking about Mundorf Evo / Oil because I need 82 uF to replace a nonpolar lytic cap In XO which Is In serie to midwoofer
  I found Obbligato Premium Gold warm and lacking detail and bass control


----------



## zibra

You mean 8.2 uF? I just have exactly that capacitance of Evo Oil in Aluminium. Precision and detail should be better but there is a little bit of bass emphasis also so you must decide by yourself.


----------



## samoloko

82uF - It Is not very cheap
  that Is why I ask how good Is Mundorf Evo Oil compared to other - Evo, standard MCap, Clarity Cap ESA, Obbligato
  as I remember many found standard white MCap as a rugh sounding In low freqs - It Is not strange that Evo In Oil got It


----------



## zibra

Its not that bad. Its very good cap for price without sounding too plasticky etc. I liked it better than standard Mundorf Supreme which are overall highly praised. I would reccomend it for trying.


----------



## dimkasta

Guys thanks a lot for an amazing thread 
   
  I ve built a DCB1 a few months ago and decided to add some coupling caps to protect by speakers, since my amp is DC coupled as well...
   
  Finding this thread about a month ago I decided to give the K75-10 a try and after a recommendation from a  friend I got them on 2.2uF and bypassed them with a 0.1uF FT3.
   
  The upgrade from my Mundorf Supremes was HUGE.
   
  I liked it a lot, so I added the same combo on my phonoclone too.
   
  Although the combination seemed to have a bit rounded mids and shy lows and highs. And the effect seems to add-up when using my phono.
   
  Now after almost a month and about 50 hours, things have not changed significantly... And it started to itch a bit to "fix" it again, although the suggested break-in time for these is a whooping 200 hours...
   
  What I am thinking is that both my amp and preamp have 220K input impedance, so going as low as 0,47uF would maintain a nice deep -3db filter while allowing the use of a single FT-3.
   
  You guys think it will be a step up ditching the PIO for an all teflon setup?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





samoloko said:


> 82uF - It Is not very cheap
> that Is why I ask how good Is Mundorf Evo Oil compared to other - Evo, standard MCap, Clarity Cap ESA, Obbligato
> as I remember many found standard white MCap as a rugh sounding In low freqs - It Is not strange that Evo In Oil got It


 
   
  I require 166uf and have also tried the Obligato Gold, these are OK in the lower end of the spectrum but fail in every aspect in the mid to high end to the point I do not think that these are MKP!  the smoothness just kills the airyness and transparency on the high end of the spectrum.
  I had 50uf MKP made up by Erricsons almost 28yrs ago and they in 3X 150uf parallel blow these Obligato Gold out of the water.  And as a person that doesnt believe in burn-in, I have had them in the system in a preamp for at least 18mths and still no joy, before i moved them to the crossover!
  Im no longer spending big bucks on glorified highly marketed "audio grade" caps that provide very little specs apart from the dimension of the size and range.  Time to try out some MKPs that are designed for motor runs!


----------



## Jasper9395

Hey guys here is a epic review of many different capacitors which I have found very useful in the past. At the moment I am planning on building a bottlehead Crack so I am looking for some good output coupling capacitors. They are 100uf so I am looking for something that is reasonably  affordable. The Mundorf evo oil caps look very interesting to me. The standard Evo is supposed to be the successor to the RXF which was apparently quite good value for money.
  Quote: 





zibra said:


> Its not that bad. Its very good cap for price without sounding too plasticky etc. I liked it better than standard Mundorf Supreme which are overall highly praised. I would reccomend it for trying.


 
   
  Some more in depth comparison and info on how they sound would be great. Thanks!


----------



## GrindingThud

No one seems to talk much about the Dayton audio caps. I've got a pair of .22uf as interstage couplers and thought about "upgrading". I'm into sterile precise detail.....any reason to swap them out, and if so, what to? The only ones on my wish list right now are the FT-3 in 200V...but they are huge and I don't want to end up doing a "degrade" either.


----------



## lehmanhill

Quote: 





dimkasta said:


> Guys thanks a lot for an amazing thread
> 
> I ve built a DCB1 a few months ago and decided to add some coupling caps to protect by speakers, since my amp is DC coupled as well...
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Dimkasta,
   
  I see your posts all the time over on the Shigaclone thread.  Nice to see you here.  I agree that you need a balance in "cap character", that the sound adds up and can go too far.  I would point out that changing the value of the cap can be just as important as changing the design.  If I understand your thought, you are considering going from a 2.2 uF main cap to as low as a 0.47 uF.  That change alone should make the high frequency brighten up some as the smaller cap has a higher resonance, even in the same design.  Changing the size of the bypass can also affect the sound balance.  For example, the 0.47 uF with a 0.1 uF might be on the bright side or less coherent.  Of course, the only answer is to try it.
   
  As for teflon on teflon, go back a couple of pages in this thread and you will see where Jon L is using a V-Cap bypassed by an FT-1, so go for it.  It would definitely change the sound from the K75.
   
  Jac


----------



## Jasper9395

Quote: 





samoloko said:


> 82uF - It Is not very cheap
> that Is why I ask how good Is Mundorf Evo Oil compared to other - Evo, standard MCap, Clarity Cap ESA, Obbligato
> as I remember many found standard white MCap as a rugh sounding In low freqs - It Is not strange that Evo In Oil got It


 
  It's a bit late but the evo oil caps have now been reviewed here.
   
  [size=small]"Sound: The compactly built Mundorf MCap EVO Oil is a big step up from the basic MCap EVO Aluminium and actually it is my personal favourite of the three EVO type's although it's more expensive brother, the EVO Silver Gold Oil, does still excel in fine, airy top-end detail. I found the MCap Evo Oil to do especially well on vocals, male and female voices come out well rendered and relatively natural sounding with a certain richness. Wind instruments (brass or wood) also sound convincing with the EVO Oil, they seem to have a natural edge to them. Image depth is another strong feature of the EVO Oil although not up to the high level of Mundorf's Supreme range. All in all the MCap EVO Oil seems to be the best overall performer of the EVO range unless you are into piano music - then the MCap EVO Silver Gold Oil scores lots of points for top-register clarity. Brighter than an Intertechnik Audyn Cap Plus that costs roughly the same but at the same time not as full sounding."[/size]


----------



## HenryRo

Sorry to ask such a newbee question but,
  how do you bypass a coupling cap? Does the bypass cap just go to ground?
  Thanks!


----------



## GrindingThud

No, it goes across the cap. Looks like 2 caps in parallel.



henryro said:


> Sorry to ask such a newbee question but,
> how do you bypass a coupling cap? Does the bypass cap just go to ground?
> Thanks!


----------



## Doc Now

What about TRT StealthCaps and Hovland MusiCaps?
   
  Peter


----------



## Atom Shop

Quote: 





jon l said:


> FT-1 2200 pF Russian Teflon Capacitors (Bypass)


 
  I'm wondering, Jon, how a .01/600v version of this cap would work as a "general-purpose" bypass.


----------



## SkipPP

I am so confused. Every cap I have ever used was either Panasonic, Nichicon, or Nippon Chemicon, with perhaps an Elna here or there. none of these are mentioned here, and tons of new names are. I am looking some of these up and they look cool, although some just look like marketing gimmicks (wax capacitors???). 
   
  Are these specialty products really that much better than high-end mass-market Japanese caps? Furthermore, what is this "burn in" process? I have never heard of this before. I have seen the difference in sound for using better capacitors, but I have not been exposed to these specialty items. Where would be a good place to learn how these products are different from the mainstream Japanese audio caps one would find in a typical Onkyo/Denon/Marantz receiver or amp?
   
   
  Interested side:
  http://www.madisound.com/pdf/claritycap/MRWhitePaper.pdf


----------



## sceleratus

Quote: 





skippp said:


> I am so confused. Every cap I have ever used was either Panasonic, Nichicon, or Nippon Chemicon, with perhaps an Elna here or there. none of these are mentioned here, and tons of new names are. I am looking some of these up and they look cool, although some just look like marketing gimmicks (wax capacitors???).
> 
> Are these specialty products really that much better than high-end mass-market Japanese caps? Furthermore, what is this "burn in" process? I have never heard of this before. I have seen the difference in sound for using better capacitors, but I have not been exposed to these specialty items. Where would be a good place to learn how these products are different from the mainstream Japanese audio caps one would find in a typical Onkyo/Denon/Marantz receiver or amp?
> 
> ...


 
  It's not a lot different from tube rolling, another subjective pastime.
   
  I have not re-cap'd manufactured products, rather I used boutique caps and resistors when I built a 300B amp.
  There is a pair of 0.22uF caps in the signal paths, so I upgraded those.  I tried the Jupiter Condenser, yes, beeswax caps for a short time.  But all the reviews of the Mundorf caps were glowing and I couldn't help but try them.   I went with the Silver Oil. They are very large and it took some work to fit them on the board.  Actually hovering over the board.
   
  Although I don't really have a before and after comparision, I am delighted with the amp and the sound.
   
  I added a photo of the Texas Components hand made 0.1% resistors just to add to the complexity of your decision making process...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  EDIT:  I got the caps from Madisound.  They're great.


----------



## Jasper9395

Yes, the Mundorf supremes are great - a real audiophile cap. I've got a Michell Delphini phono amp which uses them... It sounds very good. I've also used Mundorf HC to replace and Mundorf Mcap to bypass the power caps in my Roksan Kandy LIII with great results. They're not cheap but you do get what you pay for. Also as you can see they are very big so I couldn't mount them on the pcb.


----------



## ronenash

I have been following this thread for a while now and have learned a lot from it. I have played with many different capacitors over the last year. a month ago I had a chance to get the new Aurocap XO capacitor to test out. I did not see too many references on the web to this capacitor and all the current review discuss the old version of the Auricaps.
 I installed the caps as coupling and output caps in my Tetra phono stage. The Auricaps replaced the K40y-9 in the coupling cap position and the K75-10 bypassed by an FT-3 in the output cap position. As soon as I fired the Tetra I notice considerably more top end extension but a relatively narrow and shallow soundstage. Knowing what a couple hundred of burn in hours can do I let the caps burn in for two weeks. Over the course of these two weeks I noticed a constant improvement in sound. The soundstage became wide and deep, midrange gained refinement and bass became more articulate. These caps are really really good. They retain the great midrange of the original Auricaps but with so much more extension on top and on bottom as well as more air and transparency. This is really a top notch capacitor. Just to make sure I was not imagining thing I reinstalled the Russian caps in the Tetra and listened. There really is no comparing between the two. The Auricap XO to my ears are so much better.
 It would be interesting to hear others experience with these caps. It a shame they are not used by more people.
  
 Ron


----------



## Jon L

ronenash said:


> I have been following this thread for a while now and have learned a lot from it. I have played with many different capacitors over the last year. a month ago I had a chance to get the new Auricap XO capacitor to test out. ...
> It would be interesting to hear others experience with these caps. It a shame they are not used by more people.
> 
> Ron


 
  
 This is great news for affordable capacitor market since the price seems to have gone up just a bit.  You should get a hold of some other metallized poly reference cap to compare and let us know, i.e. Claritycap MR.  
 Some info as to what may have changed in the XO version:
 "Over the past two years Audience has tested a host of parameters including tension windings and baking times, among other proprietary procedures. Auricap XO is made using the very finest obtainable polypropylene film and new high purity, oxygen free continuous cast copper leads. This new cap design offers reduced parasitic such as ESR improving on its effective bandwidth."


----------



## ronenash

jon l said:


> This is great news for affordable capacitor market since the price seems to have gone up just a bit.  You should get a hold of some other metallized poly reference cap to compare and let us know, i.e. Claritycap MR.
> Some info as to what may have changed in the XO version:
> "Over the past two years Audience has tested a host of parameters including tension windings and baking times, among other proprietary procedures. Auricap XO is made using the very finest obtainable polypropylene film and new high purity, oxygen free continuous cast copper leads. This new cap design offers reduced parasitic such as ESR improving on its effective bandwidth."


 
  
 I do not have any Claritycap MRs but the Auricap XO were a big improvement over the Claritycap SA and ESA and over the Russian PIO caps I mentioned.


----------



## ronenash

A review of the Auricap XO was just published on Positive Feedback with much the same finding as I have already mentioned.
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue70/auricap.htm


----------



## JamieMcC

Hi guys I have been having fun researching output capacitors for upgrading my Crack in the new year, being in the UK prices here seem to be higher than those over in the US and there is not so much choice readily available  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So narrowing it down the has been difficult but these two sound attractive and are within my limited budget. 

 The  Obbligato 100uf 400v +-10%           45mmx90mm at £30each
 &
 The JB JFX 100uf 250v premium film +-3%     48.5mmx59mm at £22 each


 For reference  a pic of Mike B's Crack with  Dayton 100 uF 250 V caps in this pic which




  are listed as 51 mm x 77 mm Which would mean the JB JFX premium films would have a little more room for installing unlike the Obbligato.

 I have a few questions if anyone can help?

 Capacitor matching, the supplier will match the JB JFX pairs to +-1%  for £1.75 I am guessing matching is a good idea but would be interested in general thoughts on this.

 There is quiet a bit of info about the Obbligato on the net but not much on the JB JFX which seems to be a 2013 product from JB Capacitors who have been manufacturing industrial capacitors for 30 + years.

 Has anybody here any knowledge of them for audio?

 Spec's

http://www.jbcapacitors.com/pdf/JFX-Premium-Metallized-Polypropylene-Film-Capacitors-Axial.pdf

 Generic pic

  




  
 Any thoughts welcome

 Cheers

 Jamie.

 ps Happy New Year all.


----------



## sceleratus

jamiemcc said:


> Hi guys I have been having fun researching output capacitors for upgrading my Crack in the new year, being in the UK prices here seem to be higher than those over in the US and there is not so much choice readily available
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't know about the Crack as to best sound for the buck. 

I purchased my Mundorfs from Madisound. They have a good variety and I thought their prices were fair.


----------



## VicW

Thank you for a great update. Most of my cap experience was with my Haflers and Phillips CD player. The input caps were most reveling in my cast but this is decades since I done things. I have always liked Panasonics for cheap caps, especially electrolitics. Wimas were always up there and wondercaps had a high end softness but still detailed. I have also used but not kept in line a few of the oil filled Russian caps. For my applications I like the Wimas. And, I am not beyond using an extra bypass for critical application. I have also used a few Teflons and don't experience them as being cost effective. It's all a matter of "balance" in your particular system. But since so much time has passed maybe I need to get up to date and you have given me a great starting point for updating my system.
 On the point of "updating" a friend had an old Accuphase pre and power amps. I had gone over his board updating same spec caps in the circuits but increasing those in the power supply. He was thrilled. Another friend has a pair of Sumo amps and he too was re-impressed with his original purchase since I updated it and kept it in action for another decade.


----------



## loserica

Do you listened Rike Audio (PIO) S-Caps yet? Thank you!


----------



## mcandmar

jamiemcc said:


> Hi guys I have been having fun researching output capacitors for upgrading my Crack in the new year, being in the UK prices here seem to be higher than those over in the US and there is not so much choice readily available
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey Jamie, have you considered Mundorf caps?   I recently fitted 1.5uf Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil output caps into my S.E.X amp and they are sublime. For the interstage caps i'm using .1uf Russian FT3 teflons.   I'm still stunned how much of a difference they made to the amp, but a little worried that i find myself back reading this thread again


----------



## JamieMcC

mcandmar said:


> Hey Jamie, have you considered Mundorf caps?   I recently fitted 1.5uf Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil output caps into my S.E.X amp and they are sublime. For the interstage caps i'm using .1uf Russian FT3 teflons.   I'm still stunned how much of a difference they made to the amp, but a little worried that i find myself back reading this thread again


 
  
 Hi the large uf Mundorfs were a bit pricey for me, size wise there is not much wiggle room also. Its helpful to know of your experience with your SEX thanks I am very tempted to build one of them at a later date and have a speaker project I am mulling over to base round it. Maybe later in the year.
  
 I do have some more info on the JB JFX which I decided in the end to purchase. Fingers crossed they will be a worthwhile upgrade we will see.
  
  
 Following on from my earlier post, the JFX-Premium metallized polypropylene film capacitor intrigued me and there is something about taking the path less travelled that I find attractive compared to running with the more obvious tried and tested choices for upgrading the caps in the Crack.
  
 After some considerable time spent online getting nowhere I ended up contacting JB Capacitors direct in China.
  
 It turns out that they have a 30 year history of capacitor manufacturing with modern machinery and production methods achieving high consistent quality to meet many international accreditations.
  
 On to the JFX-Premium metallized polypropylene film capacitor. 
  
 These are built to high specification and JB state they regard their JFX product  as being of equivalent quality as the more well know  brands such as  Jensen, Auricap, Erse, Mundorf,  Auricap, Erse, Mallory, Jantzen Audio.  Which is not a claim to make lightly I would think.
    
 A premium grade of “defect free” aluminium metallized polypropylene film was chosen from an industry leading film supplier. All leads are lead free (RoHS Compliant), oxygen free 99.99% pure copper. Each lead is attached to the body of the capacitor with ultrasonic welding. To further reduce equivalent series resistance and improve long term reliability, the leads are then soldered with lead free silver solder. JFX caps are then wrapped in flame proof polyester tape and the ends are epoxy filled. Before final packing, each JFX cap is tested with certified premium quality Wayne Kerr capacitance bridges to insure the ±3% tolerance nominal value. 
  
 This seems to be born out as my two capacitors are matched 102.35uf and 102.27uf 0.08uf difference so to within 0.08% this seems a good sign with regards to consistency of their  manufacturing.
  
 Interestingly I also found out that Mundorf approached them to manufacture the JFX as OEM part for them so they could create a new premium brand to sell under the Mundorf branding. JB decided not to pursue this as it did not add value to their own brand which they want to promote with the JFX.
  
 The JFX range is promoted
  
 “The JFX caps display signs of a near perfect capacitor. Total harmonic and IMD distortion and phase distortion are virtually immeasurable, while all losses are near zero in every aspect. jb JFX caps will allow your music to be accurate and uncolored in every way.”
  
  
 Taking a path less travelled was to appealing so I decide to go with JB JFX premium films over the Obbligato's being smaller they fit in the BH Crack nicely. Initial observations they seem well made no obvious flaws they arrived quickly, well packaged and with associated measurements from Audiocap UK. The labelling is not printed onto the capacitor itself but on a adhesive film that is wrapped around the capacitor. There are no markings as to which lead is connected to the outer foil  so you would need to test if you wanted to connect in a particular orientation. From what I have found this is common practice in this price range and as you move up the price ladder this feature becomes more available on some but not on all of more well known premium bands.
  
 My Caps


----------



## JamieMcC

Its been both fun and confidence building adding a couple of mods to my BHC over the last week. Yesterday it was the turn of the JB Capacitors, JFX 100uf 250v premium film caps.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still need to add some insulating tape to the cap leads and connecting wires, I will pick some up on Monday.

 Also on the first pic you can see how the Valab attenuator only just fits inside the case. I had glued some corner braces to the case and needed to remove one of these for the Valab to fit.
  
  Initial impressions are very good, much better than I was expecting which is a pleasant surprise.
  
 I'm planning to let them burn in for 50+hrs to see if anything changes





ReplyQuote Multi


----------



## NightFlight

What the heck are the zip ties tied to?


----------



## JamieMcC

nightflight said:


> What the heck are the zip ties tied to?


 
  
 One of these for each tie.


----------



## NightFlight

Well holee-crap.


----------



## JamieMcC

Hi guys I have hundred or so hours on the JFX 100uf 250v premium film caps now and have added some impressions on them to them at the end of the first post on my Crack build page if anyone is interested.

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,5284.msg50963.html#msg50963
  
 Cheers


----------



## canister

This is my DIY headphone amp for my HD800 wired in balanced mode. The circuit is a single -ended triode design using one 6072A driving a 45 tube, yielding an output of about 1.5W per channel. The power supply to the filament of each 6072A and 45 is DC and independently regulated. The B+ to each channel is also independently regulated using a tube circuit consisting of 1 OC3, 1 12AX7 and 1 6AS7G. I use a metal base GZ34 as the rectifier. All transformers (amorphous core for the output) / choke are made by Tamura Corp., Japan.
  
 I have used a variety of caps in this amp, consisting of 4 Mundorf M Tube Cap, one pair of Blackgate electrolytic, one pair of Audio Note silver foil (signal), 4 V-Cap TFTF Teflon (bypass) and multiple Auricap XO metalized polypropylene.
  
 I am extremely happy with the sound of this amp, though all the caps have cost me quite a sizeable sum!


----------



## JamieMcC

canister said:


> This is my DIY headphone amp for my HD800 wired in balanced mode. The circuit is a single -ended triode design using one 6072A driving a 45 tube, yielding an output of about 1.5W per channel. The power supply to the filament of each 6072A and 45 is DC and independently regulated. The B+ to each channel is also independently regulated using a tube circuit consisting of 1 OC3, 1 12AX7 and 1 6AS7G. I use a metal base GZ34 as the rectifier. All transformers (amorphous core for the output) / choke are made by Tamura Corp., Japan.
> 
> I have used a variety of caps in this amp, consisting of 4 Mundorf M Tube Cap, one pair of Blackgate electrolytic, one pair of Audio Note silver foil (signal), 4 V-Cap TFTF Teflon (bypass) and multiple Auricap XO metalized polypropylene.
> 
> I am extremely happy with the sound of this amp, though all the caps have cost me quite a sizeable sum!


 
 Wow that's a mighty impressive amp. Way beyond my current skill level. I have been toying with adding some bypass caps and did look at the TeflonV-Caps a while back and they are expensive to say the least! I have been looking for 2.2uf 250v and was thinking of trying a couple of those Russian teflons I would need to mount a couple of pairs in series for to reach 2.2uf. No rush for now and more likely to try the Mundorf silver gold oil to be honest.


----------



## canister

If anyone is interested in bypassing capacitors, this is an informative write up:
  
 http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3763


----------



## magiccabbage

canister said:


> If anyone is interested in bypassing capacitors, this is an informative write up:
> 
> http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3763


 
 serious build there. You got anymore pics. Did it take long to make?


----------



## JamieMcC

Well I suppose it was inevitable I have had a JFX  2.2uF 250V Polypropylene Film cap that has been sitting in my parts box for a while now (I brought it at the same time as the 100uf films as it only cost £1.72) and ended up soldering it in as film bypass cap across the last electrolytic filter cap in the Crack today.

  I feel there has been a slight improvement in fluidity and presence a touch more body to vocals and also the top end has slightly more crispness to the shimmers and tinkles without importantly for me adding any brightness.

  It now opens up a can of worms with respect to trying something like a PIO or SIO or further bypassing of the current bypassing cap with a smaller Teflon.

 I will let the cap burn in for a week or two in situ while I mull over which options to have fun experimenting with next.


----------



## canister

jamiemcc said:


> Well I suppose it was inevitable I have had a JFX  2.2uF 250V Polypropylene Film cap that has been sitting in my parts box for a while now (I brought it at the same time as the 100uf films as it only cost £1.72) and ended up soldering it in as film bypass cap across the last electrolytic filter cap in the Crack today.
> 
> I feel there has been a slight improvement in fluidity and presence a touch more body to vocals and also the top end has slightly more crispness to the shimmers and tinkles without importantly for me adding any brightness.
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome to the fun world of DIY. Have you considered Solen caps from France? I have had great experience with their caps.
  
 This is a good place to browse around for components of all kind and also get an idea of their pricing. Excellent and prompt service from this company.
  
 http://www.hificollective.co.uk/


----------



## canister

magiccabbage said:


> serious build there. You got anymore pics. Did it take long to make?


 

 This pic shows the size of the amp relative to my HD800. The output tubes shown are EML 45 Mesh. In the previous picture, I was using NOS Tung-Sol 45 circa 1950s.
  
 This amp weighs 24kg. It took me 7 weekends to built.....thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it!


----------



## brunk

canister said:


> This pic shows the size of the amp relative to my HD800. The output tubes shown are EML 45 Mesh. In the previous picture, I was using NOS Tung-Sol 45 circa 1950s.
> 
> This amp weighs 24kg. It took me 7 weekends to built.....thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it!


 
 That amp is absolutely beautiful, props to you  I am in the process of building a 4-channel LPUHP amp with internal active 4th-order crossover for my horns+supertweets that is balanced throughout the entire signal path and avoiding DSP/resampling. It's going to take a few weekends and I hope it sounds as good as this masterpiece looks!




  
 P.S. since this is a capacitor thread, would you guys recommend film caps over multi-layer ceramics for an active crossover design? I am leaning towards the films, but would appreciate a second opinion.


----------



## earwaxxer

brunk said:


> ................
> P.S. since this is a capacitor thread, would you guys recommend film caps over multi-layer ceramics for an active crossover design? I am leaning towards the films, but would appreciate a second opinion.


 
 I would use films for sure...


----------



## lehmanhill

loserica said:


> Do you listened Rike Audio (PIO) S-Caps yet? Thank you!


 

 I have had the chance to play with the Rike S-Caps in both a 1 uF, DC blocking cap and a 6.8 uF tweeter crossover cap.  Frankly, they are really good, one the best caps I have auditioned, but also not at all what I expected from a PIO.  I'm a little hopeful that Jon L will be interested enough to try them.  It would be great to have a review from such a grand database as Jon's.
  
 I say that they are unexpected.  Most PIO's (at least in my experience) have a lush, even colored mid-range and often lack a little detail and sparkle on top.  Now I haven't tried any of the really good and expensive caps, so my comparisons are to lesser, but still good caps.  Acting as a DC blocking cap at the input of my power amp, the Rike S-cap excels at clarity and detail.  I think they are better for clarity than the Audyn True Copper and a Mundorf ZN that I have tried.  They stand out as clearly better than a Jantzen Superior Z or an Obbligato Premium Gold.  The later caps seem veiled and thin sounding by comparison, at least in my system.
  
 Another interesting difference is that the Rike S-Cap displays more dynamic range than other caps.  You seem to hear more of the quiet details, but they remain quiet, while the loud sections of music seem louder somehow.  The combination of clarity, detail, and dynamic range result in an excellent sound stage with width, depth, and focus.
  
 As for balance, the bass and mid-range are there in appropriate proportion, but perhaps a bit recessed from the higher frequencies.  Also, the mid-range seems clean and clear, but not warm or lush as you might find in a K75-10 or a Jupiter HT.  In fact, I would say that the Rike has a character similar to the K71-4 Russian Polystyrene, just better than the K71.  With a system that is already warm sounding, the Rike might be a perfect choice.  I guess that makes sense as it was developed by a company that designs tube equipment. 
  
 When I tried the Rike in the tweeter section of a passive crossover, I found a similar effect, clarity, focus, and dynamic range.  Choosing something warmer for the mid-bass crossover section was a really nice combination. 
  
 One of the things that I really like about the Rike is that tone is very natural.  Polypropylene seems to give everything a slight plastic tone, polystyrene is fairly neutral but maybe a little harsh, and teflon, at least the Russian FT teflons, are a little slippery or oily in tone.  To me, paper in oil caps give a nice neutral and natural tone that I like very much.  The Rike is just the best of the PIO's that I've tried because it keeps its natural sound and opens up the detail in ways that most PIOs don't.
  
 Overall, if you are looking for caps in the Rike price range, they are definitely worth a listen.  That is especially true if you goal is unveiled and detailed.


----------



## nOtEcH

wizardknight said:


> Have read on the Internet that some people say the Duelund Cast Capacitors are the best they have ever heard. Hope someday you might consider reviewing them Jon L.




A few years back I searched for "the best caps in the world" and I ended eventually up with Duelund caps. They were the best I've ever heard.
Now a new Duelund has entered the scene.. new for me anyway and it is rated even better than the one I've got in my speakers.

The place that I found best information about the Duelund caps back then is still available and reviews have been added:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


----------



## Jon L

notech said:


> A few years back I searched for "the best caps in the world" and I ended eventually up with Duelund caps. They were the best I've ever heard.
> Now a new Duelund has entered the scene.. new for me anyway and it is rated even better than the one I've got in my speakers.
> 
> The place that I found best information about the Duelund caps back then is still available and reviews have been added:
> http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


 
  
 I am testing some Duelend CAST PIO Cu currently.  We shall see.  I am curious about their CAST Silver, but at $700 each, some things just should not be..


----------



## earwaxxer

I'm sure the Duelund caps sound great. They HAVE to, or no-one would pay that kind of coin! Personally, I cant see it. I currently have my maggies crossed over with, on one channel, 10uf Mundorf EVO aluminum/oil and on the other 5x 2.2uf Mundorf silver/oil - (the reason for the 2.2uf is that I use that value more frequently and I happen to have a bunch of them}. The crossover point on the latter is a bit lower, but if I focus on just the cymbals etc with an ear to each speaker I cant decide which sound I like better. I'm going to keep them like that until I do. Sometimes it just hits me - "oh - theres the difference - how did I miss that?" - I really expect a bigger difference, given the price difference.


----------



## brunk

earwaxxer said:


> I'm sure the Duelund caps sound great. They HAVE to, or no-one would pay that kind of coin! Personally, I cant see it. I currently have my maggies crossed over with, on one channel, 10uf Mundorf EVO aluminum/oil and on the other 5x 2.2uf Mundorf silver/oil - (the reason for the 2.2uf is that I use that value more frequently and I happen to have a bunch of them}. The crossover point on the latter is a bit lower, but if I focus on just the cymbals etc with an ear to each speaker I cant decide which sound I like better. I'm going to keep them like that until I do. Sometimes it just hits me - "oh - theres the difference - how did I miss that?" - I really expect a bigger difference, given the price difference.


 
 I don't know if this is blasphemy around here...but have you considered active crossovers instead of hoping for better sound with a different passive component? There are quite a few benefits that are immediately noticeable


----------



## JamieMcC

I have started to take an interest in motor run caps!


----------



## brunk

jamiemcc said:


> I have started to take an interest in motor run caps!


 
 Are you going to make your Crack have 'blue butt cheeks' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I love that beast he made lol.


----------



## Jon L

brunk said:


> I don't know if this is blasphemy around here...but have you considered active crossovers instead of hoping for better sound with a different passive component? There are quite a few benefits that are immediately noticeable


 
  
 I personally run active crossover for my speakers, but having tried quite a few active crossovers, I can say they all sound different as well with large differences in build/sound quality.  The good ones can cost quite a lot, too.  I do wish more speaker manufacturers would offer active-crossover options, take out the passive parts, to offer some savings to consumers.


----------



## JamieMcC

brunk said:


> Are you going to make your Crack have 'blue butt cheeks'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 lol yes it is definitely way out there! Thinking about trying one out to the replace the last 220uf electrolytic in the Crack power supply I will probably bypass with a something little more exotic as well. I am expecting a couple of Russian teflons to arrive soon for some bypassing fun.


----------



## JamieMcC

As luck would have it I came home today from work and the postman had been. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and cost about the same as a cup of coffee! £1.75 or $2.80 if you live across the pond.


----------



## brunk

jamiemcc said:


> As luck would have it I came home today from work and the postman had been.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Those are smaller than I had imagined. What are you going to use them for?


----------



## JamieMcC

I have bypassed the last 220uf electrolytic with a 2.2 film cap and will now add the Teflon to bypass the 2.2 film.  The Teflon is 0.056uf and is actually surprisingly quiet heavy for its size. My expectations are not high it is more experimentation.


----------



## JamieMcC

Here we go I soldered the Russian Teflon K72P6 (silver one) in place this morning, it is 0.056uf in value. The smaller black capacitor which it is cable tied to is a JFX 2.2uf metalized film!
  
 Phew what a relief nothing sounds any worse and first impressions with the Teflon in the chain are encouraging!  I will let it burn in for a while now.


----------



## brunk

Looks nice JamieMcC! What brand of pot is that? Have a link?


----------



## JamieMcC

brunk said:


> Looks nice JamieMcC! What brand of pot is that? Have a link?


 
  
 Hi brunk
  
 It is a Valab 23 step attenuator
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valab-23-Step-Ladder-Type-Attenuator-Potentiometer-10K-Log-Stereo-/301091749503?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item461a777e7f
  
 I have some notes on fitting and my impression about halfway down the first post in the link below.
  
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,5284.0.html


----------



## brunk

Thanks JamieMcC


----------



## JamieMcC

brunk said:


> Thanks JamieMcC


 
 brb I just noticed I made a mistake the link was to the 10k value one. The one I have fitted is actually 100k


----------



## JamieMcC

Capacitor Update time. Cross posted on the Crack OTL bb
  
 First off,
  
 Russian Teflon K72P6, used to bypass the 2.2uf film cap which was itself used as a bypass on the last 220uf electrolytic in the Crack power supply.
  

  
 K72P6 Impressions with just over 200hrs on the clock.
  
 I have noticed a slight change in sonics to the top end, it is very subtle but smoother, with what I can only describe as an easiness in its smoothness. Less grain and better resolution but without any hint of the normally associated brightness that I have experience before with such resolution. Its not a wow instantly noticeable sonic signature instead it just blends in as part of the whole picture bringing a touch of refinement. It kind of needs to be listen for specifically in order to get a handle just what has changed. But does come across in the whole.
  
 I would like to say I have no plans to remove the Teflon as I am really loving the sound coming from my Crack at the moment it is absolutely sublime with the T1's and its with some trepidation and no doubt a good dose of stupidity I am going to continue swapping capacitor types and positions in a vain attempt to get a grasp of some of the character the different capacitors types can impart.
  
 Whether or not the changes might improve, on what I currently think could well be perfection for me is yet to be discovered.
  
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
 So my Crack cap rolling odyssey continues.
  
 This time its the turn of a pair of Jantzen z- superior's, experimenting with them used as bypass caps for the JFX 100uf films and later in combinations with some pio film's (polypropylene film in oil, not paper) and some Hybrid mylar, paper and aluminium film in oil variants.
  
 Back to the Jantzen who interestingly state their Z caps require no burn in.
  
 From the Jantzen website
  
 "Superior Cap Even the finest nuances can be heard.The sound never gets over-edged, really superb naturalness with a somewhat bright top-end. Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Caps are absolutely high-end components, delivering a natural, almost holographic sound stage. Even the finest nuances can be heard."
  
 I am pleased to say this is very much inline with my own initial impressions the difference over the JFX alone is instantly quite noticeable. I am wondering if the "somewhat bright top-end" will settle down at all. And while its not " over-edged" it is walking a fine line with T1's and the accentuation of sibilance on some tracks I find just a tad to much for my personal taste. So I hope this might calm down with a little time on the clock.
  
 Everything else is just dandy I particularly like the effect the Jantzen has with the bass it seams more expansive and deeper. There is some really nice ambiance coming through on live recordings
  
 Following on it does suit the HD650's rather well also.


----------



## JamieMcC

Just to add the Jantzens have settled down nicely and the sibilance I had experience when first listening has now gone after about 30hrs of running.
  
 Also the postman kindly dropped off some care packages for me the other day (funny how it all turned up at the same time).
 This definitely put a smile on my face 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





the big box was from Russia just 7 days delivery to the UK and its just so very encouraging to see so much care taken in packaging and makes for great fun unwrapping also.
  

  
 Well wrapped and quick delivery, deserving of a plug if that's allowed.  Thanks ebay seller nixiestore  http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/nixiestore


----------



## brunk

Now that is some audiophile porn hehe. Good stuff!


----------



## JamieMcC

jon l said:


> *Russian K75-10 Hybrid Paper and Polyethylene Terephthalate In Oil Capacitor*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Jon, just wanted to say I think you really nailed the sonic character of this capacitor in your review. I am using two as bypass caps on the coupling caps in my Bottlehead Crack, and am really enjoying how they sound with the Crack.
  
 I find them very musical, fluid and engaging with bags of PRaT. The “jest and pop” you describe is very much akin to the presentation I experience while listening to vinyl with my Rega Planner 3. It just sets the toes tapping and the head nodding as you get lost in the deliciousness.  The caps are going to have some more burn in time over the next week and will add some further thoughts on any changes when I do my next Crack & Caps update.


----------



## JamieMcC

Short  update on the Jantzen Superior Z
  
 I am glad I gave the Jantzens some time to burn in they have defiantly improved. The very annoying sibilance that was initial prevalent (testing with my most prevalent recordings for it)has noticeably diminish.
  
 The sound continued to improve across the spectrum and with it a shift in the equilibrium appearing with the balance between liquidity and authority. The Jantzen signature is more dominant and overriding.  Super Resolution and fast transients spacious stage override.
  
 Resolution, on some uber fast Spanish guitar pieces is astonishing not only able to hear notes as normal but also the attack of the plectrum hitting the strings on each strum behind the notes quiet amazing considering the speed.
  
 With further listening and burn this combination for me has swung to far to the clinical side with its authority and dominance at the expense of musicality.
 The softness and naturalness of texture in timbre and tones which beguiled is being drowned out.  I removed the Jantzens from this combination so I could re-reference the sound. I will try them again later with some pio caps and see if it’s a more pleasing combination. The Jantzens are certainly very good caps and I think many would like what they bring to the table.
  
 A couple of progress pics.


----------



## GermanGuy

subscribed!


----------



## JamieMcC

double post


----------



## GermanGuy

anyone here had the chance to listen to this capacitors? These capacitors are east german / russian made mica capacitors 100nF / 500V and are available at ebay.de from "oppermann" for about 8 euro a piece. i meassured the capacitance and all are within a tolerance of 2%.
  

  
 found this great thread today. i really can recommend the WIMA MKP10 (NOT! the MKP4) , great price / performance ratio. after having red through this thread i am really happy that i bought Mundorf Silver.Öl capacitors for my next or how to say final DIY tube headphone amp also based on the tu-05 design but with "as best as possible" components..
  
 btw here is a picture of a rebuild of the analog squared paper tu-05 design with WIMA MKP10 capacitors. it is  really prototype status, the size had to be small for the tube sections (not the prototype power / voltage filter pcbs) to fit into the tu-05 case (skipped this idea later):
  

  

  

  
 and here the case i made for the amp:
  

  
 i don't know if it is off topic here, but
  
 - i would be happy for any recommendation for high end resistors for my next build !
 - any recommendation for electrolyte capacitors (already bought ELNA SILMIC II and SILMIC, Mundorf M-Lytic, Nichicon Muse for the power/voltage paths)


----------



## JamieMcC

This might interest a few here and could be a bit of a find. It is also hot off the press having been only recently been listed.

 Top of the line made in the US by RTI Electronics Teflon capacitors measure 10uf +/-10% at 310VDC, matching to 2-3% offered at $80 each!

 Some further info that's not in the sales description, apparently they were designed for the output of a reference quality preamplifier using 6H30Pi tubes.  RTI Electronics supplies several types of this capacitor to this manufacturer and there was a mix up. These caps cost the company that ordered them well over $100 each and that was at a bulk rate.

 The name of the amp manufacturer would not be disclosed to me. However it is very high probability it is Audio Research imo.

 From the web






 Sales pic






 The seller TC Tubes and Audio Research are both located in Minnesota a short distance from each other.

http://tctubes.com/teflon-capacitor.aspx


----------



## JamieMcC

germanguy said:


> anyone here had the chance to listen to this capacitors? These capacitors are east german / russian made mica capacitors 100nF / 500V and are available at ebay.de from "oppermann" for about 8 euro a piece. i meassured the capacitance and all are within a tolerance of 2%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That is a interesting build I have yet to try any mica capacitors so looking forward to hearing of your progress and impressions..


----------



## brunk

germanguy said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Why not the MKP4 caps? Is that in general or for a specific application?
 For boutique resistors, I really like PRP and Vishay nudes. Otherwise, I tend to stick with Vishay RN60.
 For electrolytics, I like the Silmic II's, Nichicon FG/KZ, Nichicon aluminum organic polymer LV/NP/CX, and for a big power section I like Panasonic and Cornell Dubilier.


----------



## mcandmar

These articles have probably already been posted in this thread, but should be required reading.
  
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/capacitor-sound


----------



## mcandmar

brunk said:


> Why not the MKP4 caps? Is that in general or for a specific application?
> For boutique resistors, I really like PRP and Vishay nudes. Otherwise, I tend to stick with Vishay RN60.
> For electrolytics, I like the Silmic II's, Nichicon FG/KZ, Nichicon aluminum organic polymer LV/NP/CX, and for a big power section I like Panasonic and Cornell Dubilier.


 
  
 I think the difference lies in their construction, and intended application. Looks like 10's are the ones for audio use.

http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKP_4.pdf
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKP_10.pdf


----------



## earwaxxer

germanguy said:


> anyone here had the chance to listen to this capacitors? These capacitors are east german / russian made mica capacitors 100nF / 500V and are available at ebay.de from "oppermann" for about 8 euro a piece. i meassured the capacitance and all are within a tolerance of 2%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 What I would do is figure out what the lowest values you can use without decreasing bass (cathode bypass) and use a film instead of an electrolytic. I have replaced a 1000uF electrolytic with a 48uF film cap with no loss of bass. IMO films sound far better than even the Elna Simic ll. As far as resistors the Vishay Nudes I'm sure are great - for less coin I would go with Tants.


----------



## GermanGuy

thanks all of you for your recommendations!

@brunk - the mkp4 are much smaller, lower voltage, but simply do not nearly sound as good as the mkp10. also wima mentions the mkp10 for audio use.

@earwaxxer - the amp is battery biased, so no cathode bypass capacitor. but i had the idea to replace or bypass the 100 microfarad electrolyte capacitors used to stabilize the anode voltage by film capacitors (mundorf zn?) in my final build. worth a try?


----------



## GermanGuy

mcandmar said:


> These articles have probably already been posted in this thread, but should be required reading.
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/capacitor-sound


 

 great articles! thanks a lot!


----------



## goodvibes

faust2d said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *spritzer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
 But not necessarily less that the added circuitry involved in not needing one.


----------



## earwaxxer

germanguy said:


> thanks all of you for your recommendations!
> 
> @brunk - the mkp4 are much smaller, lower voltage, but simply do not nearly sound as good as the mkp10. also wima mentions the mkp10 for audio use.
> 
> @earwaxxer - the amp is battery biased, so no cathode bypass capacitor. but i had the idea to replace or bypass the 100 microfarad electrolyte capacitors used to stabilize the anode voltage by film capacitors (mundorf zn?) in my final build. worth a try?


 

 Hey GermanGuy - I for sure would replace my electrolytics with film if you can affort it, especially something around only 100uF. Go with a Mundorf of some flavor. Doesnt matter what kind as long as it can handle the voltage. Electrolytics are unstable and can fail, compared to a good film cap. I sleep better at night.


----------



## spacequeen7

I need you expertise guys..I want to replace a pair of film caps  on my recently acquired Crack with speedball and I was told that I need *100uf 250v*  film caps,I'm new to recapping (only did Aune T1)
 so please can someone recommend good caps on the budget that will last -I was going to order "silver in oil" Mundorf but then I was reading this 


> I used this capacitors in several tube amplifiers and all the capacitors lost his values due the heat (50Cº to 60Cº) in a few hours (Less than 200h)


 
  here are few I round it up 
 http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/tin-foil-caps/mundorf-2.20-mfd-tin-foil-cap-250v/
 rest of tin-foil
 http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/mundorf-tin-foil-caps/
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231098197223?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
  
 the only *100uf 250v*  film caps I can find are Muldorfs mkp
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_mkp.html
  
 I really like to get obbligatos but  can't find 100uf 250v
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_obbligato_oil.html
  
 P.S. I don't want to loose bass with this upgrade and I want to make sure they will fit in the box without making risers 
  
 Thank you


----------



## brunk

spacequeen7 said:


> I need you expertise guys..I want to replace a pair of film caps  on my recently acquired Crack with speedball and I was told that I need *100uf 250v*  film caps,I'm new to recapping (only did Aune T1) so please can someone recommend *good caps on the budget that will last*
> 
> 
> *P.S. I don't want to loose bass with this upgrade and I want to make sure they will fit in the box without making risers *
> ...


 
 I use these, great value and no risers needed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-100-100uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-447


----------



## GermanGuy

earwaxxer said:


> Hey GermanGuy - I for sure would replace my electrolytics with film if you can affort it, especially something around only 100uF. Go with a Mundorf of some flavor. Doesnt matter what kind as long as it can handle the voltage. Electrolytics are unstable and can fail, compared to a good film cap. I sleep better at night.



 


thanks for your recommendation! btw, the amp is fully battery driven, the anode voltage is lower than 65 volt.


----------



## JamieMcC

spacequeen7 said:


> I need you expertise guys..I want to replace a pair of film caps  on my recently acquired Crack with speedball and I was told that I need *100uf 250v*  film caps,I'm new to recapping (only did Aune T1)
> so please can someone recommend good caps on the budget that will last -I was going to order "silver in oil" Mundorf but then I was reading this
> here are few I round it up
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi I am using the JFX 100uf 250v premium film caps I found they are a little smaller which made them easier to fit. They are made by JB Capacitors in china who I believe are the OEM manufacturer for the ERSE Pulse X of the same value. If you look the specifications and write ups save for the change in product name.
  
 I have some impressions on them and other mods maid to my own Crack in the link below
  
  http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,5284.0.html
  
 Also you will be able to use capacitors with a higher voltage value ie 100uf 400v this I think is the value of the obbligatos that you might have seen used. They are quiet large capacitors by the way.
  
 This might help prices are approx
  
 The  Obbligato 100uf 400v +-10%                    45mmx90mm @ £30each

 The JB JFX 100uf 250v premium film +-3%     48.5mmx59mm @ £22 each

 Dayton 100 uF 250 V caps in his bhc are          51mm x 77mm  @ £23each
  
 For size reference a pic of Mike B's Crack with the  Dayton 100 uF 250 V caps fitted.





  
 and below with the JFX


----------



## spacequeen7

how you attach them to aluminium ?..also i noticed your pot (earlier-different pic) ..any smaller recommendations ? 
  
 Thanks guys


----------



## JamieMcC

spacequeen7 said:


> how you attach them to aluminium ?..also i noticed your pot (earlier-different pic) ..any smaller recommendations ?
> 
> Thanks guys


 
  
 The Blue Alps pot is popular and about the same size as the stock one and can be seen fitted to quite a few bhc's.
  
 As for fixing one of these for each cable tie.


----------



## spacequeen7

thanks again Jamie ,great help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT; there seems to be a hassle to get JFX in US ..will probably end up with Dayton


----------



## JamieMcC

spacequeen7 said:


> thanks again Jamie ,great help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Any of the above capacitors would be a good choice, I decide on the JFX partly because I could source them locally and also trying something new appealed.


----------



## earwaxxer

I know what you are driving at - I have the Bottlehead Quickie - done extensive mods on it. Super fun kit. Well worth it BTW. From my experience, I wouldnt worry about the quality of the film caps except for the coupling caps that are in the signal path - thats were you want the silver/oils. Those 100uF caps, go with Mundorf MKP's with no hesitation. In a pinch, you could probably go with lower values. I would CK with Bottlehead on that.


----------



## GermanGuy

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


----------



## spacequeen7

hey guys I have quick question ,I'm replacing caps (like the two above) and was wondering if I can use 22 Gauge copper wire instead of 20 Gauge ?
  
 EDIT;it seems to work just fine


----------



## JamieMcC

Those yellow and black caps look like could do with one of these stickers on them


----------



## JamieMcC

Its a slippery slope! 
  
 Poor speakers.


----------



## GermanGuy

anyone here having tried the WIMA DC-LINK capacitors?
  
 made to replace electrolyte capacitors f.e. in power supplies and other applications, MKP foil capacitors, available up to 4920µF.
  
 this one f.e. is specified as follows:
  

 DC-LINK MKP 6
 - 900 µF,
 - 900 VDC,
 - 85/86 x 210 mm,
 - ±10 %,
 - 60 A,
 - 1,5 mOhm
 - Low ESR
  
 Price is about 70 Euros.


----------



## JamieMcC

Crack Cap rolling update
  
 Cascade bypass of JFX 100uf Premium film audio coupling capacitors
  
 Bypassed with
  
 Russian K75-10 Hybrid Paper and Polyethylene Terephthalate in Oil (Mylar)
  
 Bypassed with
  
 Russian Teflon K72P6 Teflon
  
 Beyer T1 and TS 5998 used for listening
  
 I find myself enjoying the pairing of these capacitors they sound much better than the odd look they have shoehorned into the enclosure and held together with cable ties might suggest.
  
 It has taken over 200hrs for the combination to settle down and a more coherent and refined sound to emerge.
  
 With the Crack I find the K75-10 really very musical, fluid and engaging, PRaT is good its has a slightly dark flavour at lower volumes.  John L mentions  “jest and pop” in the presentation in his capacitor review ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/284863/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread) this comes through strongly and is very much akin to listening to vinyl on my Rega Planner 3, Just instant tow tapping head nodding enjoyment. Its a very engaging sound. 
  
 Here’s the thing with the K75-10 I find it very musical the downside is the roll off. The top end has lost a lot of its crispness, gone is the metallic ting on triangles and cymbals which have now turned to softer schings instead of the crisp detailed ting, the bass is also a little loose and bloomy.
  
 So I tried adding a K72P6 Teflon bypass to the K75-10 things started to improve while still keeping much of the K75-10 character.  With over 200hrs burn in the K72P6 Teflon influence on the top end has settled down and it makes for a much more coherent and refined sound, which the K75-10 lacked on its own.
  
 Details and resolution are vastly improved while still keeping some of the zest and pop which I found engaging.
  
 The aspect I have found most pleasing with this combination is the vocal presentation, both male and female voices come across beautifully with nice tone and texture and enough detail in the resolution to pick up the little nuances in word formation and expression.
  
 The film and Teflon bypass capacitor combinations are throwing up some surprises and these Russian ex-military capacitors I have been experimenting with cost about the same as a cup of coffee each.
  
 This is a combination that I could happily listen to for a long time.
  
 pics


----------



## JamieMcC

brunk said:


> Are you going to make your Crack have 'blue butt cheeks'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  uh oh low hanging fruit warning, blue to boot!


----------



## loserica

lehmanhill said:


> I have had the chance to play with the Rike S-Caps in both a 1 uF, DC blocking cap and a 6.8 uF tweeter crossover cap.  Frankly, they are really good, one the best caps I have auditioned, but also not at all what I expected from a PIO.  I'm a little hopeful that Jon L will be interested enough to try them.  It would be great to have a review from such a grand database as Jon's.
> 
> I say that they are unexpected.  Most PIO's (at least in my experience) have a lush, even colored mid-range and often lack a little detail and sparkle on top.  Now I haven't tried any of the really good and expensive caps, so my comparisons are to lesser, but still good caps.  Acting as a DC blocking cap at the input of my power amp, the Rike S-cap excels at clarity and detail.  I think they are better for clarity than the Audyn True Copper and a Mundorf ZN that I have tried.  They stand out as clearly better than a Jantzen Superior Z or an Obbligato Premium Gold.  The later caps seem veiled and thin sounding by comparison, at least in my system.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for this detailed review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I use now the Rike S-Caps (0,1uF) in my DAC and I'm satisfied overall. I like the PIO sound!


----------



## GermanGuy

today the WIMA MKP 80µF and 550µF film capacitors for my next DIY tube amp arrived, never had thought that they were that large, this is maybe the difference between reading and finally seeing the size:


----------



## dimkasta

I recently changed my power amps again, so now I am out again looking for new DC blocking caps for my DCB1. The input impedance is now 22K (10 times less than my previous setup which was 220K) which means that the rolloff starts way early with my 0.47uF FT-3s.
  
 The new value I need is at least 4.7uF to maintain the same deep enough rolloff, while Salas from diyaudio suggested I tried a 10uF one for even lower rolloff and to avoid some phase shifting thingies.
  
 I have already ordered some K75-10 which will be bypassed with the old FT-3s, but I am open to suggestions.
  
 Has anyone tried the non-polar Nichicon Muse ES series (metal green can) or compared them to the Russians??


----------



## ronenash

dimkasta said:


> I recently changed my power amps again, so now I am out again looking for new DC blocking caps for my DCB1. The input impedance is now 22K (10 times less than my previous setup which was 220K) which means that the rolloff starts way early with my 0.47uF FT-3s.
> 
> 
> The new value I need is at least 4.7uF to maintain the same deep enough rolloff, while Salas from diyaudio suggested I tried a 10uF one for even lower rolloff and to avoid some phase shifting thingies.
> ...



 


I would seriously consider the new Auricap XO capacitors. They are not that expensive and do not fall far behind the best teflons IMO.


----------



## JamieMcC

Talking about the K75-10 reminded me I have a couple of pics of the 100uf K75 40b and 200uf JFX mods I am trying out
  
 Basically using a Triad choke in place of a resistor and swapping out the last electrolytic capacitor in the power supply for a jfx 200uf  premium film. Also trying out some K75 100uf PIO (mylar)capacitors temporarily clipped in with some fly leads.


----------



## dimkasta

Damn those 100uF are huge 
  
 BTW the 10uF K75-10s I ordered are huge as well at 10cm x 5cm... that is HUGE... I really do not have the space for them in my current chassis.
  
 In the meantime, I installed two K75-10 at 2.2uF in parallel, and bypassed them with my previous 0.47uF FT-3, giving me ~4.9uF.
 You think it would be worth to add a 10nF FT-1 in there too? Or it should be way to fast and it would mess up the timing/phase shifting?
  
 It was also a nice opportunity to change the wiring with the 32AWG medical grade silver wire that I got.
  
 Unfortunately it's way too late for proper listening volume, but some initial listening showed that some of the bass is back, although the highs are a bit shy. I can t be certain though, because the PIOs are known for not working well in low volumes.
  
 It was also a bit expected since everything is freshly soldered and most of the caps are not broken in, not to mention that my monoblocks have also just started their breaking in cycle and they also need a couple of resistors upgraded too..
 But overall I am very excited with the present performance and the potential. If only some of the top end comes back and a bit of the "grandeur" in the mid-lows, and I ll be a happy camper


----------



## NightFlight

Jamie, that scaffolding is starting to look a bit on the ridiculous side. LOL. Does it all still fit? When are you going to give up an A) build a bigger chassis B) Mainline.
  
 I'm trying to wrap my head around using a choke to clean up the power supply. Any pointers?  If I understand the mechanics, the bridge rectifier craps out a lot of noise and the capacitance reservoir of PS is supposed to bury it. But in practice this reservoir is still muddy because output is always still tied to input. Electricity is not water. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  So its best to clean it up before it goes in. My understanding of implementing electronics is very minimal... like my theory. But I'm pushing my knowledge to get better tunes.   .... currently hunting for a used scope.
  
 And that JFX is mammoth. I guess there's bypassing the last cap... and replacing the last cap with film. Two totally different animals.


----------



## JamieMcC

nightflight said:


> Jamie, that scaffolding is starting to look a bit on the ridiculous side. LOL. Does it all still fit? When are you going to give up an A) build a bigger chassis B) Mainline.
> 
> I'm trying to wrap my head around using a choke to clean up the power supply. Any pointers?  If I understand the mechanics, the bridge rectifier craps out a lot of noise and the capacitance reservoir of PS is supposed to bury it. But in practice this reservoir is still muddy because output is always still tied to input. Electricity is not water.
> 
> ...


 

 It looks better in the flesh, the original idea was to replace the last electrolytic cap with the big film which I had ordered prior to thinking about the choke mod, I expect 100uf or even less would be plenty but as I had it I thought what the heck why not use it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 The choke mod is not expensive and easy enough to implement try it and see, I was pleased with the results.
  
 I think I am close to being done with this Crack other than some tidying up of the cables and connection with some heat shrink which I have on order. Its been have had a lot of fun and will do another one for sure maybe in a bigger chassis and implement some of the things I have learnt along the way with some new ideas that have been mulling over.  Both the Mainline and Sex beckon but funds for new  toys are a little tight at the moment. 
  
 No it does not all still fit in I ran out of ground clearance due only to the large cap I made a new enclosure which is 20mm deeper so all the guts do not hang out underneath.
  
 Its sounding sublime at the moment often when listening I am just awe struck by the sound I'm experiencing.


----------



## NightFlight

That is a nice new box. I like the look and handles. Good idea.
 What have you got in the pre and power sockets?
  
 Has anyone documented hacking in a choke into the power supply? I've read enough that you can't just drop anything in and doing so requires a sufficient theoretical knowledge of what your doing to adjust - or order the correct part.  I'm guessing I should just start out by building my own diode rectified PS on a breadboard and fiddle until it all becomes self evident.


----------



## JamieMcC

Pre is a Tunsgram E80cc Nickel/silver plate
 Power is a GEC 6AS7G


----------



## dimkasta

nightflight said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around using a choke to clean up the power supply. Any pointers?  If I understand the mechanics, the bridge rectifier craps out a lot of noise and the capacitance reservoir of PS is supposed to bury it. But in practice this reservoir is still muddy because output is always still tied to input. Electricity is not water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Bridge diodes not only create switching spikes, but also they ring in high frequencies when they close because of their reverse capacitance and some other parasitic thingies.
 A solution is to filter them with something like polypropylene film caps. A usual value is 100nF or so, but if you want to be accurate, check this out http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/snubber.pdf
 Another solution is to use some fast and soft switching diodes like MUR or something. Not that those do not need filtering, but the problem is quite less pronounced with them.
  
 The second problem is that your filter bank (CRC or whatever) might not be enough to smooth out the entire switching spike, or it might not be fast enough, so one solution is to add more capacitance, bypassing the big caps with smaller ones with smaller ESR (ergo faster) to allow for faster filtering, but also for quicker discharge when the highs/mids require the energy quickly. When the highs need some energy super fast, they can get it from the smaller caps with lower ESR, and when the time comes for the big bassy music discharge, the bigger caps take over.
 In that sense, BIG transformers are also a good idea because they recharge the bank in fewer voltage swings or even in one.
  
 Now about CLC, I have to say that I do not like using chokes, but for completely different reasons. Not that they do not work, I have read many good things about them, but inductance is something I do not quite grasp well so far, not to mention that chokes are harder to source and/or measure properly. Perhaps someone else can help us with some layman's terms on it


----------



## mcandmar

In a rather simplistic laymans terms, capacitors tend to resist changes in voltage, where as inductors tend to resist changes in current. Inductors can also be thought of like a barrier for noise, diode switching discussed above is one thing, but the ripple caused by the charging/discharging of the capacitors is even more of an issue for a quite supply, inductors greatly help to smooth out those transitions.  A resistor does a good job in that role, but an inductor or choke does it much better with the added benefit of acting like a current reservoir.


----------



## dimkasta

Cool  This makes a lot of sense.
  
 Just a note, if the music creates voltage drop or ripple as it discharges the capacitors, we need more or faster capacitors 
  
 The current reservoir idea of the choke also makes sense in acting kind of like a super fast bypass in supplying current for the highs. Actually this might be a good idea for the gainclone which is notorious for having bad highs with big caps, and bad lows with smaller caps... Big cap and a choke might do the trick  And to my knowledge no one has commented on trying it.
  
 Anyway... we really got out of topic...
  
 Back on topic, after ~10 hours of breaking in, my K75-10s + FT-3 set still sounds weird on my DCB1... I really miss that top end of the single FT-3... And since the FT-3s were already broken in, I am starting to think that I need to consider a different bypass value.
 On top of that, mids and lows are a bit floppy, but I am pointing this both on the multiple caps and their "freshness".
  
 Damn I hate this phase of waiting...
 I really can t wait to get my hands on those big 10uF ones...


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Jupiter caps does anyone know about these caps ?

Al


----------



## NightFlight

I got a bunch of .3uF K71-7's basically for free. So I taped three together and used them as my first experimental bypass on the Cracks CRCRC power supply. I got this S&H 12AU7 and found it to be a little wimpy in in the bottom end but nice everywhere else. Right away I could tell the bypass with the Russian polystyrene seems to have been a good move. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Its only ~1uF. Is it placebo?


----------



## Jon L

alrainbow said:


> Jupiter caps does anyone know about these caps ?
> 
> Al


 
  
 I presume you mean the new Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax capacitor?  Normally, I wouldnt' say this, but just buy it, before Jupiter Co. realizes its real worth and triples the price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0514/jupiter_copper_foil_paper_wax_capacitor.htm


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I was advised by the person building my DAC 
Do I said yes. Who knows. Duelands is the name right now. 
And the copper is what most use but there us silver too hahaha
So I went with Jupiter let's see. 
And yes it's them u quoted 
Al


----------



## dimkasta

Guys have you compared  Κ73-16 to K75-10 and/or FT-3?


----------



## JamieMcC

The K73-16 looks to be a I dry polyester and Mylar film (I have not tried it)
 The k75-10 is reported to a be duel dielectric capacitor Polypropylene & paper with a metalized Mylar film, wet in oil  (very musical and engaging presentation) there look to be a couple of different versions of the k75 some of the larger value ones are reported as being dry and resin filled and not pio.
  
 FT-3 is Teflon (seriously good value performance ratio). 
  
 I liked the results achieved from bypassing the K75-10 with the FT-3 Teflon bypass. Read through this bb you will find fair bit of info on them.
  
 info on the ft3
  
http://www.rutubes.com/articles/?article_id=15
  
 K75-10
  
http://www.rutubes.com/articles/?article_id=7


----------



## elmoe

I'll contribute quickly:
  
 In the process of upgrading the output caps on my MPX3, I ordered a bunch of different electrolytic caps to see which I liked best.
  
 Nichicon GN 390uF/400V (the stock ones)
 Nichicon KX 470uF/400V
 BC (Vishay) 470uF/450V
 Phillips (Vishay) 390uF/400V (had those lying around)
 United ChemiCon 860uF/400V (a new product that comes in the same size as the rest, 35/40mm)
 Panasonic 470uF/400V
 Epcos 560uF/400V
  
 Long story short, the Epcos / Nichicon KX were the best of the bunch by far. I ended up sticking with the Epcos, as they provided more slam/dynamics and the higher capacitance gave more bass to my low impedance headphones. The KX sounded smoother, and more musical but had less slam. Was really surprised by the Epcos. A really good cap!
  
 As far as film caps go, I upgraded the industrial cathode caps in there with AudynCap Fine First, but ordered some Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil that I should be receiving tomorrow. The Fine First are quite good though, they were really a step up from the industrial "orange" caps in there.


----------



## dimkasta

Thanks for the nice links J
  
 I am currently using K75-10 bypassed by FT-3 on my dcb1 and I am expecting some big 10uFs now for testing. I just have read some nice opinions about the K73s, so I was wondering if someone has directly compared them to the more popular K75s


----------



## dimkasta

In the meantime, the 10uF K75-10 arrived.
  
 Those things are HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the exclamation marks are not nearly enough...
  
 Here is a photo for relative comparison.
  

  
 The values are clearly visible  The last one on the right is a 10000uF electrolytic at 50V just to have a rather common size in there.
 The 10uF is 10cm in length and 4.5cm in diameter...
  
 Here is the actual "thing" that I added on the output of my DCB1. I went for a 1/100 ratio on the bypassing this time.
  

  
 First impression is really positive. With the caps freshly soldered and with 0 breaking in time, the bass is already at least as deep and articulate as it was before, and the mids are at least twice as clear as they were before (Probably because of one main cap instead of two). The biggest improvement is on the highs, which are through the roof. Still not on-par with the solo FT-3, but I will give it some time 
  
 Overall, I am very excited for this set.
  
 Something that I have to point out is that Russians really need their leads cleaned before soldering. Flux should be able to clean some of the corrosion or dirt, but I really recommend scratching them a bit with an exacto knife, filing them a bit, or even sanding them.
 This made soldering oh-so-much-easier and faster as well, even with the big chunky leads dissipating much of the heat.
  
 Please also note that the caps are not secured on the chassis for now. Just standing on top of some internal heatsink because they did not fit properly in there. I expect things to get even better by properly attaching them to some chunky wood or aluminum plate.
 My intention is to put the final set into a wooden cylinder and sink it into beeswax for further elimination of vibrations and microphonics.
  
 So happy


----------



## JamieMcC

Neat pleased they are working out for you. I'm loving a similar combo my Russian teflons required roughly 150-200hrs of burn to get a feel for their full effect.  
  
 I'm looking forward to trying out a pair of Hovland Supercaps for some bypass duty when they eventually arrive.


----------



## dimkasta

You guys think there is some merit in further bypassing these with another 1/100 cap?
  
 Like 10uF/0.1uF/1nF ?
  
 I also got a suggestion from Salas to change the bridging wire to some thicker one to eliminate extra resistances between the two caps.
  
 I will try these today and post back.
  
 Oh and something else I have noticed.
 Using crimps to keep the leads connected increased the dissipation factor of the caps by around 10% which is a rather big change (0.0040 to 0.0050). I would solder the caps for critical listening. Especially the Russians which have dirty and semi-corroded leads. Clean those and solder them properly for auditioning.


----------



## JamieMcC

I would be tempted to say no as the K75+teflon has quiet a strong character. But you never know if its not going to cost a lot why give it a try.


----------



## dimkasta

Yeah the problem is that I do not have any 1nF teflons. It will have to be silver mica... Mixing more dielectric stuff in there is going to be tricky...


----------



## JamieMcC

nightflight said:


> I got a bunch of .3uF K71-7's basically for free. So I taped three together and used them as my first experimental bypass on the Cracks CRCRC power supply. I got this S&H 12AU7 and found it to be a little wimpy in in the bottom end but nice everywhere else. Right away I could tell the bypass with the Russian polystyrene seems to have been a good move.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Funny enough for some fun I have been trying the K71-7  for bypassing on my JFX films and then with the Epcos pio 100uf motor runs that I'm also trying out in the coupling spo  along with some bypassing with Hovland Supercaps I brought used off of the bay.
  

  

  

  
 Edit also rolled in a pair of Jantzen Superior Z caps


----------



## dimkasta

I got a suggestion from Salas to minimize the wires of the bypassing cap and/or use some big gauge wiring for those places.
  
 The improvement I got was significant. The sound is quite more coherent. Granted, I use very thin silver wiring, almost 32awg, but still, I did not expect anything like that.
  
 Further on my tests, K75-10 10uF bypassed with FT-3 0.1uF once again reveal their very nice colors after some more breaking in...
 I am still waiting for the smaller ones, but to be honest I am done experimenting with that spot... On to the speakers now


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## dimkasta

I just received the Russian silver mica caps at 1nF.
  

  
  
 As soon as I got home I went straight for my DCB1 and installed them piggyback on my K75-10/FT3 set.
  
 Initial listening is that the sound is brighter, clearer and bitey-er. Imagine kind of like what K75-10 does for the mids, the silver mica seemed to have done for the mid-highs. To better pinpoint the frequencies, imagine violins playing high notes. The entire top end is clearer in fact, although not as clear as I would want it so far (single FT-3 sound for reference).
  
 However, bass is significantly reduced in volume and feels slower, while at the same time there seems to be some incoherence in the sound. I will leave it there for a few days to break in a bit, but I am beginning to think that 3 caps are too many to produce a coherent result.
  
 The smaller cap seems to allow an airier result though, so if that does not work very well after all, I will try removing the FT-3  0.1uF and keep the mica in its place for a test. And perhaps even try a 10nF FT-1 teflon too.


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## dimkasta

I left the CD playing all night yesterday, and had a fast listen before going to work.
  
 I think I will love this combo


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## dimkasta

A week has passed using the K75-10/FT3/SGM combo (10uF/0.1uF/1nF) with about 30 hours of usage.
  
 I completely love it!!! And it still has much way to go into breaking in....


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## dimkasta

I received the K75-10 at 4.7uF yesterday.
  
 I told myself that I would not try them but who was I kidding...
  
 As a size, they are the same length with the 10uF ones (10cm), but half in diameter (~2.5cm)
  
 I soldered them directly replacing the 10uFs keeping the 0.1uF FT3 and 10nF SGM bypasses, so that I made a direct comparison to the sound I already liked.
  
 First impression was that bass was thin. Granted, going half in capacity means one octave less bass... Ok it was a bit of a stretch going for the ~7Hz optimal bass that the big ones give (22K input impedance on my monoblocks). The 4.7s give ~15Hz optimal.
  
 However part of the thinness is surely due to the recent soldering and fresh caps. This effect usually goes away in a day or two, so I will be back with this.
  
 Now on the sound...
 I do not know if it is because of the less deep bass, but I feel that i got a very obvious improvement in clarity.
 On top of that, there were two areas that I did not like. First the bass had more lower end and no punch, no impact. With the 4.7uF I am starting to get some of this impact back. This is especially obvious in higher bass frequencies. For example when a guitarist hits his guitar.
 The second part was that in some cases mids and mid-highs had a dark quality. On that, I tended to attribute it to the recording since in other occasions the sound was fine. But with the 4.7uF all I can say is WOW... strings, pianos and guitars are now what I know them to be... for lack of a better word I want to say fresher? Damn I hate to love those audio-phool words 
  
 It is weird how when something is objectively or subjectively impressive you keep making excuses for it....
  
 Anyway, I really miss the bass for now... I hope it comes back...


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## JamieMcC

I have a pair of K75-40 100UF 1000V bath tub pulse capacitors which get used as coupling caps and have to connect them up externally when in use as they to big to go inside my amps case! They are bypassed with a Teflon the sound is utterly  beguiling yet feels highly resolving also, they are by far my favourite cap in this spot closely followed by the Epcos pio 100uf motor runs which are more neutral sounding.
  
 The best analogy I could think of to describe these two pio caps influence over a standard dry film is its feels like your looking at something below the surface of the water without then with polarized sunglasses suddenly that surface glare vanishes allowing you to see deeper below the surface into the water/music objects become more 3D crisper and better defined with more substance to them.


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## dimkasta

Is there a reason why you are using such a big capacitance? I considered my 10uFs to be BIG!


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## JamieMcC

dimkasta said:


> Is there a reason why you are using such a big capacitance? I considered my 10uFs to be BIG!


 
  
 I believe its due to the topology  being OutputTransformer-Less with a direct coupled circuit. (Bottlehead Crack kit) stock its comes with some electrolytic 100uf caps which are nice and small and easily fit. Swapping them out for films makes a worthwhile improvement but you start to run out of room real quick.


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## dimkasta

Ah it s inside an amp. I was thinking pre-amp to amp DC coupling.


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## elmoe

Has anyone ever tried these as output caps in a tube amp?
  
 http://www.newark.com/panasonic/ezt-vkctyp1ha/cap-film-581uf-10-5-450v-smd/dp/28X5166?aa=true&min=810000020%2C810115803%2C811254861&max=810020382&categoryId=800000005277
  
 581uF, 450V, 105°C max operating temp.
  
 Far from cheap but it looks like they could do a nice job?


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## JamieMcC

elmoe said:


> Has anyone ever tried these as output caps in a tube amp?
> 
> http://www.newark.com/panasonic/ezt-vkctyp1ha/cap-film-581uf-10-5-450v-smd/dp/28X5166?aa=true&min=810000020%2C810115803%2C811254861&max=810020382&categoryId=800000005277
> 
> ...


 

 Ouch they are pricey
  
 I would rather just parallel up some 200uf capacitors the ones in the ebay link below reportedly work very well with audio and at a fraction of the price if you are US based.  I tried to order some to try out but delivery to the UK was $60! for 3 plus another $30 for the ebay Global seller import program cough cough (ransom fee) which was a shame so I left them. The postage and fees made the price only a few dollars less than buying new Epcos 200uf's pio from Farnell.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ICAR-LNF-P3B-200-30-CAPACITOR-200uF-10-Un-420V-Urms-300VAC-420VDC-/230968898220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c6d1b2ac
  
http://uk.farnell.com/epcos/b32361b2207j50/cap-film-200uf-250v-screw/dp/2219192
  
 The Epcos 100uf have proved to be nice sounding caps in my set up the stud and nut end connections make it super easy to roll in and try out different bypass caps


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## elmoe

jamiemcc said:


> Ouch they are pricey
> 
> I would rather just parallel up some 200uf capacitors the ones in the ebay link below reportedly work very well with audio and at a fraction of the price if you are US based.  I tried to order some to try out but delivery to the UK was $60! for 3 plus another $30 for the ebay Global seller import program cough cough (ransom fee) which was a shame so I left them. The postage and fees made the price only a few dollars less than buying new Epcos 200uf's pio from Farnell.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah they are too expensive for me, was just curious if anyone ever gave them a go. The ICAR could do but I would like a minimum of 400uF / channel @ a minimum of 400V so the Epcos are no good for what I need.


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## dimkasta

The lack of bass was something that did not seem to go away with breaking in, so I decided to add another K75-20 in parallel.
 So now per channel I have
  
 2 x 4.7uF K75-10
 1x 0.1uF FT-3
 1x 1nF SGM
  
 All in parallel. The interconnect goes to one 4.7uF and all others are connected in star style with thick 1.5mm copper wire (middle of the star is the main cap)
  
 At last the last octave is back.... I need ~10uF after all for my 22K impedance monoblocks...
 And as a nice bonus, there seems to be a very distinct improvement on the mid-highs as well... More airy if you need an audio-phool word 
 Plus everything is more focused now and the stage is huge once more... It kind of reminds me what I had with just 0.47uF FT3s on my 220K amp.
  
 Let's see how this one goes for a week or so...


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## pelopidas

Hey dimkasta
  
 I am also currently playing around with K75-10 2.2uf and now the K73-16.
 Before the K75 I was using Daytons which sounded very clear and detailed but were just missing that lovely "_je ne sais quoi" .  _I first put in the K75 and wow they are dark when new compared to the Daytons. Voices sound beautiful but there is a lack of detail I was struggling with. I put a Vishay 1837 0.01uf on there and got some top end clarity but still not that amazing sound-stage I had with those cheap little Daytons. Then I added a 0.1uf K72 teflon and Ugh! what a mess. I gave them about 20 hours but then took them out again and put them on my burner to let them bake a while. The weirdest thing is the K72-P6 have such microphony. I can hear the frequency sweeps loud and clear coming from the caps. So while this combo is cooking I decided to put in the K73-16 that were just sitting here while i was futzing around the with the huge k75 and k72s. It is a small cap not much bigger than a Dayton but my system is alive again. Totally reborn. The dynamics are just fantastic. There is depth in the sound-stage that just was not there with the K75-10.  I am going to listen to this for a while and see how burn in changes these guys. As a side note, within 5 minutes of first hearing these I went on ebay to order more, thats how good they sound in my configuration right now. I usually bypass everything with the 1837 because I have not had any negative experience with it yet and it always opens the sound up. So far with the K73 I have not had the desire to do that. The bass is tight, the highs are clear but most of all are the dynamics that have me listening to music and loving it in a way that I wasn't with the K75. It also sounds great at low volumes which the K75 really didn't.
 FYI, I am using these as input caps on my T-amp.


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## dimkasta

Ela re patrida 
  
 I am very interested in your K73-16 tests...
  
 K75 alone is indeed very dark. And it was still relatively dark bypassed with FT-3 and SGM. The real difference came from the 4.7uF. This was much better than the 2.2uF and the 10uF ones. And when I soldered two together (bypassed with FT3 and SGM of course), it was like I removed plugs from my ears...
  
 The reason I have not yet bought K73 is some really negative comments I 've read. I will try them though... I really do not like that big lump of capacitors in my preamp.
  
 Unfortunately I need a big value at 10uF...
  
 Any thoughts on EPCOS films at 10uF?


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## JamieMcC

dimkasta said:


> Any thoughts on EPCOS films at 10uF?


 
  
 I have used epcos 89uf films and epcos 100uf pio films and found they to be good alternatives to the normal audio branded makes.  Particularly liking the 100uf pio I have tried


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## pelopidas

K73-16
 Well sofar I cant find a fault with them. It seems like the perfect input cap for a T-amp. Extremely detailed, even shockingly so, but not harsh. I am not getting any sibilance or harshness but it is just so open up top that I am spending way too much time listening to music thinking about all that I missed while I had the K75 in there. Well, because I cant help myself and leave a good thing alone, I bypassed these with some 0.22uf FT-3 and it does absolutely nothing for it. Almost feels as if I lost a few dB and maybe also some detail. I have to let it settle in and see what happens but I definitely am shocked by how good the K73 is in my setup. I was about to buy some Mundorf Supremes but now I am worried that that will be wasted money. I guess I need to keep going through my albums until I find something that does not work. DIY audio is an OCD friggen manic addiction.
 Here are some 10uf K73-16  10 for 10$ from Russia, so expect 3 weeks delivery
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-10-uF-63V-PETP-capacitors-K73-16-NEW-LOOK-/181209687754?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a30f066ca
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-uF-63-V-MATCHED-RUSSIAN-PETP-AUDIO-CAPACITORS-K73-16-73-16-/271450530856?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3f33b66428
  
 2 for 5$ and get them in a week.
 They are way too cheap not to try.


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## dimkasta

You got me really intrigued... I will get some


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## pelopidas

Hey dimkasta,
  
 I am trying to figure out the teflons. I have the K72 and FT-3 and have tried them both but they are not what I was expecting. The 1837 as bypass is fairly easy to hear. I just opens up the top and gives everything air and also tightens up the image. I just got the teflons in the last week and have been playing around with them but im not sure I hear what I am looking for. With the K75 the K72 actually muddied the sound, made it less coherent. Now I am listening to the K73 with the FT-3 and it is also "less". The details are less, the air is less and the dynamics are less. Is this really just the need for burn-in and by christmas it will sound great? What has your experience been with the teflons? What is it that you hear when you hook them up to your K75 and SGM?
 Did they originally suck detail out of the music before giving it back again?
 I am just somewhat underwhelmed and thinking about pulling them out and just going for the K73 again, all by itself, because it sounded tight from top to bottom and now with the FT-3 its still very good, much better than the k75 combo I was running but also _flatter_?
 So do you recommend patience or should I pull the teflon?


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## JamieMcC

The Teflons often require around 200hrs burn in put the cd player or iTunes library on shuffle for a week.


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## dimkasta

First of all, I will clarify that I am trying these at the output of a DCB1 preamplifier previously driving an Electrocompaniet AW120 and now a pair of Gainclones, who in turn drive a pair of Montana EP Signature speakers.
  
 I have not tested K72 or 1837, only the FT3s, FT2s, K75, Mundorf supremes, and Mundorf supreme silver-gold.
  
 I initially used a single FT3 at 0.47uF with my 220k input impedance amp and the results were phenomenal. There was nothing to be desired. Top to bottom the sound was excellent. The solo FT3s completely moped the floor with everything else, including the Mundorf Silver-Gold ones (not oil). Excellent clarity and bandwidth way beyond what the roll-off frequency calculations would suggest in bass.
  
 Now I have switched to a 22K input impedance amp, so I have to use about 10x the capacitance.
  
 The original suggestion came from Salas who proposed that I used a 2.2uF K75-10 bypassed with an FT3 for my phono. I never tried it there, but when I switched to the new amps it was the first thing that I tried.
  
 Initially I used 2x2.2uF K75s alone. The result was as you said DARK... really vintage sound.
  
 After a few minutes I added an FT3 at 0.47uF if I remember correctly. The change was big, but it still was very far away from what I had in mind from the FT3s alone.
  
 After a week or so, not much had changed, but then my K75s at 10uF arrived. They were really big and impressive so I hooked them up the same evening. Being disappointed by the K75 alone, I bypassed them immediately with an 0.1uF FT3, keeping the proposed ratio of 1/100 to prevent smearing because of overlapping frequency performances. The result was significant improvement. Both in clarity and bass, the latter obviously from the lower roll off frequency. At that point I added a 1nF silver mica, and there was a very significant improvement in the high end as well.
  
 I used those for another fortnight or so, and when my K75s at 4.7uF arrived, I was really not going to test them. I had some negative thoughts, but I tended to attribute them to other weakish links in my system.
  
 I am not a guy that leaves stuff unchecked though, so the same day I hooked up 2x4.7uF again bypassed by 0.1uF FT3s and 1nF SGM.
  
 The result was just WOW!! Currently I do not feel I am missing much once again. The sound is super detailed and focused in a huge and deep soundstage, with a slight emphasis on the mid-lows and mid-highs giving it a very smooth texture and slightly sweet sensation, making it really easy to the ear.
  
 To be honest I would like a bit more active highs, but I was thinking things might come around with breaking in....
  
 That is mostly why I am considering the K73s.
  
 Anyway, I have to say that people keep giving opinions, but they seldom give more info about their setup, the most important being what input impedance they are feeding. This pretty much defines the roll-off frequency and angle, so it is pretty important. Especially when comparing caps with different values.
  
 By the way, for other applications, I tend to prefer either low value FT1s or Silver micas.
  
 For local filtering of high speed digital stuff for example I really like the 1 and 10nF SGM and cornel dubillier silver micas, while for other filtering duties like some spots in my shigaclone I really like the FT1s at 10nF again.
  
 I also had excellent results in PSU output and decoupling duties from the Panasonic FRs. Although keep in mind that they are really low ESR, so they might not be suitable for use right after a series regulator chip. They are perfect for local decoupling though and their character seems to dominate if used close to the load.


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## pelopidas

That is an awesome setup 
Mine is much more humble - a Xonar as dac (modded of course) going to a modded t-amp. I am using these caps on the input stage of the t-amp and the input impedance is 20k. The roll off is at about 37 hertz or so. This is not a problem right now as I am using a separate sub. My speakers are Martin Logan MLT-2. So it's a very simple setup for playing flac and cd's. It's at my desk and I'm using it near field as I am less than a yard away. 
The dac is using ad797 in I/V and lme49710 for buffer. The output buffers on the dac have been bridged which is why I need the input caps on the amp which is without an attenuator- so it's working as a power amp. I'm trying to remove as many variables and veils between the source and the speakers. It is very sensitive to even little changes which brings me to another observation. The ft-3s have been burning in and they are sounding much clearer but overall they still seem to be sucking the upper bass and some of the dynamic range from the k73 s. I am using the isotek burnin cd and it really accelerates things but I still have many hours to go before a final verdict.


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## dimkasta

If FT3s are killing your mojo bypassing the K73s, why use them? What are you trying to do with them?
   
I have ordered some 10uF K73s by the way... 0,5 euros each


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## pelopidas

Ha! that is a good question. At this point I don't know why I am using them.
  
 I have heard about how revealing the teflons are and seeing how new the K73's are to me, I wanted to see if there is anything I am missing, sonically speaking, with the K73. The K73 seemed to have a short break in period for me. After about 10 hours the sound was completely stable and stunning and having these teflons just sitting here staring at me got the best of my curiosity.
  
 By trying different bypasses vs stock I am looking for information in songs that I know very well (which my wife hates by now) which I have not heard without the bypasses. Also the usual "Angst und Drang" to try something new in the odd chance that it might work out well combined with the fame of the russian teflons.
  
 So I guess it is just simple sonic greed. The enthusiasm of a neophyte vs the temperance, patience and wisdom of experience.
  
 Now I am very curious to hear about your impression of the K73. Fortunately these are cheap experiments and that makes them all the more fun as I feel no obligation to like them unlike spendier caps where it can be harder to be objective when not only the stereo but also the money is crying.
  
 So I have been burning in the caps every night by removing the speaker wires from the amp and hooking up an 8ohm resistor with the K72 in line ( to burn those in as well ) and letting it play the Isotek on repeat for the rest of the day. The K72 are so resonant I can hear them across the room. I can hear the frequency sweeps loud and clear. Anyone else have "singing" capacitors?
  
Before posting this I played around some more:
  
 I removed the FT-3 and listened to just the k73 again by them selves. I am not missing any transparency or detail and so I a/b a few times with the ft-3 in and out. My wife has a new song she hates. The interesting thing is I cant even hear the FT-3. It is doing nothing.
  
 So I decide to try the K72 and start A/B in and out testing. This capacitor actually has an effect and it wasn't what I was expecting. There is not more detail or air because it seems the K73 are that phenomenal. What the K72 did do was level out the soundstage. This took a while to figure out what I was hearing. I was testing with Espers Byss & Abyss and towards the end there are two main guitars and the center guitar just sounded as if he were several feet higher than the left guitar, but with the K72s in there suddenly the stage is more correct. I dont want to say flat because it is anything but flat but it sounds as though the musicians are on the same stage playing next to each other rather than one sitting on a ladder.
  
 So FT-3 got voted off the Island and and K73 plus 0.1 K72 is king of the cap hill for now. I have some silver micas on order thanks to observations in this post.  I guess once the micas are here and I can see what they sound like I was thinking about getting more to replace the bypass capacitors for the opamps on the Xonar. I got that idea from some other thread where they said it made a significant improvement.
 This got me thinking about your Gainclone. Dont they also have opamps that need bypassing? Hahaha...


----------



## dimkasta

Hmm
  
 I always thought of differences in height to be interactions with the room, and usually considered them a good thing. Makes things like reverb or other guitar effects more pronounced and impressive.
 For example in "What do you want from me" from Division Bell by Pink Floyd where the guitar joins the bass/drums line in a huge sound-wall of awesome 
 Quite different sound though...
 I cannot say what you are hearing is good or bad... I do not know the song you are quoting...
  
 Anyway...  Whatever floats your boat 
  
 About micro-phonics, I never did frequency sweeps, but I can confirm that some FT-1s I modified with wood and wax had a significant improvement.
  
 Here are some photos...
  

  
 The metal casing is very easy to cut on the side, and the teflon thingy just slides out.
  
 Below is the wax sealed cap, measured again for confirmation that I did not screw it up. As you can see it once again measures a perfect Q.
  

  
 K72s have a steel casing, so I guess they would resonate more than the FTs which are in aluminum.
  
 In any case, attaching them firmly with tie-wrap to a solid base also make a biggish difference.
  
 I got some more wenge wood recently, so I am going to try treating the K76s too and see what happens...
  
 Oh and make sure that you clean the leads before soldering. Those silver leads tend to oxidize having a blackish appearance. Flux cleans them a bit,but I have noticed a significant improvement if I sand them lightly with ~600 grit until they are nice and shiny again before soldering 
  
 Oh and about the Gainclones, the chips used are just AB push pull amps integrated in a single thing, not actual opamps. They just have the same pinout.


----------



## pelopidas

You know, seeing beautiful mods like that is not helping my obsession 
 Jon L said the nude teflons had a "creamy" sound. Did you also find this to be the case? What does it mean? Are there less details or are the details less sharp?
 About the Espers song, you can find it here (if I am allowed to post links) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grEjtIdsras
 at the 5:30 mark you will hear the guitars I was talking about.
  
 So my SSG-3 silver micas showed up and, of course, I had to try them. But first I needed to mess around with my perfectly brilliant sounding system for no good reason.  Based on my input impedence being 20k I should be using 4+uf to be getting below 20 hrz without roll off. I have some 4.7 K73 on order but I am impatient, so I hooked up the 2.2 K75 with the 2.2 K73 to get 4.4uf. If the good part of this experiment is a fuller mid and low end (which I hope the 4.7 K73 will provide) the bad part of this experiment is that the K75 totally dominates and muffles all the sparkle and life out of the K73.   
  
 So while the lower and midrange had (warning audiophool language) a luscious wetness and immediacy to it, it was under a blanket, where such terms belong. So I could not wait to try the SSG's. I removed the tabs and solderd the K73 to the SSG. The value of the silver micas is 0.142 uf.
  
 My impression is similar to what Jon L said about them. I guess "bathed in soft white light" is the overall feeling, but it also seemed to constrict the soundstage compared to the K73 + K72 setup. Just overall narrower. The sound is not as sharply detailed as with the K72 but with the right music, ie vocal and instrumental such as Kings of Convenience it is just fantastically listenable, beautiful and soft in the shoulders. Then, switching genres to rock and electronic it just does not have what is needed. All that awesomeness from Dark side of the Moon was constricted and left me flat, unexcited. Thievery Corporation and Kruder and Dorfmeister all felt like the day after the excessive party.
  
 It is very possible that the value of the SSG is too large and I do have smaller silver micas coming to try out, but after playing around with different songs and genres, this combo does not suit all music. I ended up adding a 0.01 vishay 1837 to it to give it more sparkle and basically found myself looking for the K73 + K72 sound again. So that is what I am going back to.
  
 This should not be construed to think that the silver micas are not good. On the contrary. If I had a stereo just for instrumental and vocal, such as Arianna Savall, Kings of Convenience or soft, lovely music like Andrea Bocelli this would be my setup. For this genre it is like sitting in a velvet over-sized recliner after 2 glasses of wine. So "bathed in soft white light" is not from a 120w bulb but from a 40w bulb.


----------



## dimkasta

Quote:


> You know, seeing beautiful mods like that is not helping my obsession  Jon L said the nude teflons had a "creamy" sound. Did you also find this to be the case? What does it mean? Are there less details or are the details less sharp?


 
  
 Wait till you see my latest mod which uses a wenge cylinder to house the cap 
  
 I wouldn't call it creamy. Rather less distorted. However please note that I use this cap not in coupling, but for the gain time constant of the tracking servo in my CD transport. Basically it allows the eye to follow the pit line with more accuracy.
 I wanted to try this on my coupling caps as well, but with the 10uF oils total this is rather prohibitive. I never opened one to see if they are stable like that, but since oil slowly polymerizes with air I am a bit reluctant. Teflon is totally stable on the other hand...
  


> So my SSG-3 silver micas showed up and, of course, I had to try them. But first I needed to mess around with my perfectly brilliant sounding system for no good reason.  Based on my input impedence being 20k I should be using 4+uf to be getting below 20 hrz without roll off. I have some 4.7 K73 on order but I am impatient, so I hooked up the 2.2 K75 with the 2.2 K73 to get 4.4uf. If the good part of this experiment is a fuller mid and low end (which I hope the 4.7 K73 will provide) the bad part of this experiment is that the K75 totally dominates and muffles all the sparkle and life out of the K73.
> 
> So while the lower and midrange had (warning audiophool language) a luscious wetness and immediacy to it, it was under a blanket, where such terms belong. So I could not wait to try the SSG's. I removed the tabs and solderd the K73 to the SSG. The value of the silver micas is 0.142 uf.


 
  
 My experience is that for my speakers 10uFs are better. And yes I can confirm that the 2.2uF K75 is DARK and no amount of bypassing fixed that for me... I would keep those for PSU bypassing.
 For bypassing, I would keep the ratio to about 1/100
 Oh and I have not tried so big micas. I tend to like these more in phono stage RIAA network or local decoupling/filtering but in way smaller values.
  


> It is very possible that the value of the SSG is too large and I do have smaller silver micas coming to try out, but after playing around with different songs and genres, this combo does not suit all music. I ended up adding a 0.01 vishay 1837 to it to give it more sparkle and basically found myself looking for the K73 + K72 sound again. So that is what I am going back to.


 

 It kind of is large. I would try something like 0.47 FT3 with 4.7uF main cap and a 1nF mica. Oh and keep the bypass connections in a star fashion with its center to the main cap, and use thick wire for them, so that the total looks more like one thing. This made a big difference for me, probably because I use too thin interconnect wire with resistance that created different filters with each cap.
  


> About the Espers song, you can find it here (if I am allowed to post links) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grEjtIdsras
> at the 5:30 mark you will hear the guitars I was talking about.


 
  
 This is an electric guitar, so it would make sense to hear it from the back and higher, since the sound comes from an amplifier and not the guitar itself


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## pelopidas

Well, the 4.7uf K73-16 arrived.
  
 The good news is that it sounds just as clear as the 2.2uf but a bit "richer". What was interesting is that on this quest for audio bliss I have always found that each step towards better caps and sound I found more details in the upper frequencies. Air, sparkle, all that language one uses for a more revealing and intimate presentation. What surprised me this time was hearing more subtle and ambient sounds in the lower and mid range. These caps are so balanced and clear without any harshness that I am just listening to music without any desire to fiddle around with my system anymore. The details just immerse you in the recording. This one song that has sleigh bells used to be, well, you know, shh shh shh.. but now I can actually hear the little balls inside the bells rolling around. Or Dustin O'Halloran scooting around on his bench while playing piano, things like that which I had never heard before, even with headphones. And now I have this coming from my speakers. The soundstage feels really wide. Much wider than the actual location of the speakers. 
  
 So at this point I have a serious DIY addict dilemma. I don't know if there is anything else "affordable" that I can do. Obviously I can spend the GDP of a small nation on getting better speakers but as far as this amp is concerned, I don't know that it can sound better. However, I also must admit that I have not tried the pricey Mundorfs or the exorbitant Duelands.
  
 Dimkasta, did you receive your K73s yet? You mentioned that you had tried Mundorfs etc. I would really like to know what you think. How do these stack up to the best you have had including your current K75 + teflon + mica setup. Am I too easily pleased, or are the K73 really that good? 
  

  
  
 here is a list of the Russian caps I have played with sofar. I have also placed a fuse along with a Vishay 1837 in the picture for size reference. For those who don't know, from top to bottom is as follows.
 0.22uf FT-3
 2.2uf K75-10
 0.1uf K72-P6
 0.142uf SSG
 4.7uf K73-16
 2.2uf K73-16
 0.0024uf SGM


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## dimkasta

pelopidas said:


> So at this point I have a serious DIY addict dilemma. I don't know if there is anything else "affordable" that I can do. Obviously I can spend the GDP of a small nation on getting better speakers but as far as this amp is concerned, I don't know that it can sound better. However, I also must admit that I have not tried the pricey Mundorfs or the exorbitant Duelands.
> 
> Dimkasta, did you receive your K73s yet? You mentioned that you had tried Mundorfs etc. I would really like to know what you think. How do these stack up to the best you have had including your current K75 + teflon + mica setup. Am I too easily pleased, or are the K73 really that good?


 
  
 I have tried the plain Supremes at 2.2 at the output of my Phonoclone and VSPS phonos against K75 at 2.2uF bypassed by FT3 at 0.2uF (if I remember correctly)
  
 The mundorfs sounded worse by a good margin. Rather dry and thin, even after lots of breaking in.
  
 And I have tried the 0.47uF Silver-gold (not oil) against the 0.47 FT3 at the output of my DCB1 before my 220K amp, and the FT3s mopped the floor with the mundorfs.
  
 and it kills me to say it because I would want to sell them at some point 
  
 My K73s are not here yet. The Russian fellow delayed the shipment, so I hope to get them in the next 10 days or so.


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## dimkasta

I just received the K73s and hooked them up for low vol late night listening

First impression is really positive. Much better timing and clarity... I guess you do not hear the drawbacks of multi-bypassing unless you back to single cap 

Other than that they sound a bit thin but this is expected for new and freshly soldered caps....

More tommorrow ... Too much ouzo for me tonight


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## dimkasta

The K73s are a weird animal so far...
  
 A few hours of breaking in and I love their extension to the highs. Not so much to the lows.
  
 I love the timing. Bass kick drums burst exactly with the cymbals for example.
  
 I do not like the clarity so far. Not that it is bad, but it is quite lower than what I was hearing with the combo and the FT3 alone. But I will give it a couple of weeks.
  
 Oh and I have to say that mechanically they are loose inside the chassis. Some mechanical strength should clear them significantly...
  
 Oh an I couldn't resist them being so cheap 
  

  
 You can just cut the can a bit and then with you pliers peel it moving the pliers in circular motion off like in a tomato juice can.
  
 The green ceramic is attached to the leads, so these cannot be removed.
  
 Oh and the leads seem copper on the inside.


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## pelopidas

It is really interesting to see how different the caps behave on different systems and different positions.
  
 Are you running 10uf? I did notice a difference between the 2.2 and the 4.7 in terms of how long the break in is. The 2.2 sounded really good within 2 hours and then fantastic after about 20 hours. The 4.7 took significantly longer. It sounded a bit wobbly in the beginning and after 10 hours that calmed down. The bass started growing after 20 hours or so and after 2 weeks it is just beautiful. For me in my setup the bass is deep and tight. More so than any other cap I have tried.
  
 At my desk I have the Tripath 2024 where I do all my preliminary testing. My main system is a tripath 2050 from Hifimediy. When I first started modding it was with Daytons. Both systems sounded pretty identical and I thought they were the cats meow. I put the 4.7 K73-16 in the TA2050 system, to see what it sounds like and damn, its not as good. My little 2024 just blows it out of the water. So after thinking about what the problem is, and looking at the components on the 2050, I think I know why I have hit a wall. I had replaced the output inductors, same as on the 2024. But what is not yet up to spec is the other capacitors. It has some no-name (at least I cant find it) power reservoir 1200uf cap.
  
 I know the tripaths are very sensitive in this area because I used the Panasonic FC for the 2024 and that really made a tremendous difference. However, the Panasonic also truncates the bass and so now its onto Silmic II. Without replacing this cap, all other mods have no effect on the 2050. No amount of bypassing, changing caps (except the k75 which makes it worse) has any effect at this point. It is as though that one stupid cap is the gatekeeper and only lets so much through. So now I have to play around with different caps on that. I will try some Silmic II first and see if it has any effect.
  
 Keep us updated on any changes that your K73 might undergo. BTW I did end up leaving it bypassed with the K72. After it settles down, perhaps you can try that too and see what it does.


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## dimkasta

Yes I am using 10uF. I tried 4.7uF but had significantly less bass in my rig. 

Putting the K73s inside wood sealed with wax changed them significantly. Clarity is significantly improved. If you have them loose in you chassis then at least tie them firmly with some tie wrap.
Bass is still a bit softish though. And still not as low. 
But highs are very nice. I am wondering how much better these will get with some time in them


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## pelopidas

I am very curious about the nude capacitors. Is wax used just because it is convenient to use? Why do you think there is a noticeable improvement. This now has me looking at my capacitors wondering if I should pull them all apart now and sink them into some wood. Also, which wood is best? A soft wood or something like ebony that is rock hard? Is it just to remove the metal casing for magnetic reasons? Does it damp vibrations? Now I need to know.


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## dimkasta

Well as you said yourself, most capacitors have piezoelectric properties.
  
 The rationale behind removing the metal casing is that it has a high resonant frequency which is more difficult to tame. Using wood and wax brings this frequency further down where it can be handled using mass and damping. Wax is just convenient for me since it is very easy to melt and use, and has excellent damping and sealing properties. Just note to use pure beeswax which has a higher melting point, and not some wax blended with paraffin or other additives, like in candles. Care how you use them in hot systems, like amps etc.
  
 About what wood to use, whatever works for you. I would not sweat much about it in such small areas and masses.
  
 That been said, it is not an exact science. You need to experiment since it has a lot to do with the rest of your construction. And you might get perfect results just attaching the caps tightly to the chassis with some thick tie-wraps.


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## nhall

Just opened a K73-15, which outwardly looks very similar to your one, however, there is the addition of a nylon type end cap partially covering the two coil ends before the green ceramic paste .. this model is also supposed to be the same generic type of PETP cap, but shows there can be slight differences (would have added a picture, but apparently cannot on my first post here). This one I opened was one on the outer limits of the 5% spec. so I wasn't going to use it, but it was opened to see the make up before I did a matched set for my pre.
 A while back I saw some of the others demoing their wax potting, using drilled hardwood blocks and beeswax .. just thought I'd throw it in there that I did a series of Panasonic 1000mF caps recently, and as I didn't have the space, simply made a jacket by rolling paper into a nice stiff tube .. didn't even protect the innards on mine (after first experimenting on the least matched one) and to my amazement they all held their capacitance perfectly and sound great. Part of the reason I tried without first wrapping the innards, was because having done a lot of guitar pickup potting in the past I liked the idea of the wax getting in the central core as well to add as much damping as possible. I fathomed that if you're gonna damp something, might as well go the full monty!


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## dimkasta

For such modifications in capacitors, I would also measure and made sure the D factor is not altered. Not just capacitance.


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## nhall

Thanks DimKasta - yes dissipation factor - I should get over to my mates more often as he has all the test equipment.
 Have you run physical tests that nailed the physical parameters which most effect (or should I say alter) it's D factor? .. would be really interesting to know?


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## dimkasta

No not really. 
Dry caps should have little problems. Petps are held with some nylon and teflon is resilient to heat. It's possible leakage in the layers that worries me more. Although wax is thickish and should't get inside easily


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## dimkasta

Now with oils and electrolytics, heat might change the liquid or speed up its polymerization, especially since we mess its sealing


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## nhall

Gotcha .. thanks for sharing that.. I'm sure you are right - the Oscon I saw apart had a pretty solid outer coating, whereas the Panasonic was more like a PIO in that it had quite a wet oil soaked paper inter layer, and was not as stiff in its overall structure, however, as you say, the overall 'potting' will seal the whole winding, and no doubt better that the rubber gasket at the base of the Panasonic which relies entirely on tightness of fit of the rubber to the lead out wires.
 With a thick layer of wax between core and outer casing I wonder how much influence the wood actually has on the overall end performance, or, whether it has been found that a thinner wax layer allowing greater coupling of core to sleeve is more desirable, otherwise, the type of wood choice is more about protection and handling?
 Too much to explore - too little time to do it in!


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## dimkasta

To be honest I like using Wenge wood because I have it, it is beautiful and it works nicely. I have not tried anything else. Just some red Mahogany sipo which was not easy to machine and splits very easily.
 I have used mdf and ply with nice results in other damping applications, but never really though of using them with caps... MDF might be a good idea... It s very close to the cardboard used by Duelunds and has excellent damping properties.
  
 I will try it at some point, but I do not have a thick enough layer right now. I could make one out of glued rings, but it will be ugly


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## nhall

Bye the way, have you ever managed to get your hands on any of the Jupiter capacitors, or those old 50's beeswax capacitors (not the loose cardboard covered metal can ones)? .. just that some of them look to only have a cardboard shell!
  
 Wenge is a nice wood .. I know it well from my guitar making, and I believe some of the Denon re-casing chaps use it a lot.
  
 mdf has some good damping properties, however, probably would need a lot of treatment to seal well for longevity / handling - if used with too thin a wall it may in fact be much less robust than a wound cardboard tube made from treated paper.
  
 You might even look to some of the man made materials (if you aren't going down the nature path) and then could search out offcuts of kitchen worktop installations for instance - in Lab's they often use compressed paper/resin sheets like Trespa or Richlite, or new eco kitchens often use composite bamboo in thick sheets - but then what about going to your local garden centre and selecting a reasonably straight bamboo tube of the right diameter?


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## dimkasta

No Jupiters for me so far.

I love wenge fingerboards by the way


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## pelopidas

Hey dimkasta,
  
 did the k73-16 ever develop the lower end on your setup?
 Curiosity got the better of me as I had some K73-17 sitting around. These are made from the same material but are blue dipped flat caps. I was expecting them to sound horrible, based on their geometry. It stands to reason that a cylinder can be wound to fairly uniform tolerances and these "sandwich" capacitors should have variance that could affect the sonics of the capacitor. Well, maybe its too late at night and my ears are tired but these guys sound very similar to the -16's. The first hour was unpleasant but now, doing A-B over and over listening to the same passages of songs to compare presentation and detail, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
  
 Take this initial impression with a grain of salt as these caps are way to cheap to sound this good. Even more ridiculously inexpensive than the K73-16. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2uF-10-160V-PETP-Capacitors-K73-17-Lot-of-20-NOS-/251469144773?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8cbaa2c5
 20 for $7 is ridiculous.
  
 A more thorough analysis soon to come.


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## nhall

Well, don't tell anyone, but having built another version of my phono with ww resistors, 1000mF panasonic storage caps, and mostly PETP's (with one russian polystyrene in the filter), I've just ordered a load more of the PETP's .. so that's what I think of them.
 On first listen I thought the bass had nearly disappeared, but then after a couple of records I realised how much tighter and cleaner the bass was, and how much more detailed and clean the mid's and upper were .. that was over the last mainly Teflon infused version.
 Seeing more posts elsewhere rating these cap's I think the supply will soon start to dwindle .. so I say get some in hand now!


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## dimkasta

I have recently started working on my turntable and phono stage again and got a K73-16 on its output, so bass is thin once again for me...
  
 I need to give it a week or so, and start listening to my CD again because my MM is a bit crappy...


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## nhall

Dimkasta .. if you aren't already sorted for your phono stage, I'd urge you to try out either the Boozehound Labs one (but without all the PIO's), or one of the early Salas simple one's (not the more complex folded ones - but the simpler ones like the Le Pacific) with the jFets .. as you're into cap re-housing one of them would be so easy, and well executed with wise component choice will wipe the floor with many others out there .. they are so simple, you wouldn't loose much to try them, and I think you'll be amazed at their performance! - can also easily be run on batteries if you wish.
  
 The PETP's work very well in the one's I've built! .. bass wasn't as huge (and I mean it was over the top huge initially with PIO's) with the PETP's, it was however much tighter and overall more controlled (real), and the finer detail better retrieved - as you can gather, I love mine .. just planning another version as a comparison .. so easy and simple with relatively few parts, you can keep trying different variations -
  
 Next one will be denuded and wax potted cap's (this time I have tissue to first wrap the innards, and real beewax) 
  
 with ww resistors on ground plane built as tight together as I can for min. signal path's, etc.. lottsa fun!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Here was the image I wanted to paste previously, showing the slight difference with the end cap's of the K73-15's .. just for reference.


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## dimkasta

I have a salas folded premium kit, but I do not intent to build it yet. I need to close some projects first. I m currently using a vsps 300 and a phonoclone with which I very happy


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## pelopidas

Since we are playing "ill show your mine if you show me yours" here is a nude K73-17
 I thought the winding would be softer on the edges but the entire capacitor is rock solid. The flat sides do appear to be more compressed though as you can see somewhat by the shinyness in the picture.
 The sound of these is almost identical to the K73-16 but it seems even clearer up top. The only difference at this point is that there can be a bit more sibilance but these are "fresh" and are also calming down the more I listen to them. They sound zestier and livelier than the K73-16 but this could also be just the need for the cap to settle in.
 I was listening to the FT-3 by it self and it is really a beautiful clean sound. A-B with the K73's I am having a hard time finding resolution and air missing with the little cheap K73's. The are more aggressive than the teflons but this is not unpleasant in my system. Compared to Dayton MPT they are so much more dynamic an alive.
  
 nhall: you said you used to have teflons throughout your system. Were these russian teflons? How does the sound differ from the teflons?


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## nhall

Hi Pelopidas
  
 I'm at work at present, so cannot get the goods to do a shot, but yes, the big cylindrical (armour jacketed!) Russian teflons ..
  
 To be honest I didn't have all the values in them for the circuit, so some positions were in the EQ and coupling were the teflon's, and one position in the EQ was one of the square block Russian polestyrene (I'll do a pic of one of those as I have a load more ordered (and I also like them .. but they are just like a plastic outer case that easily can be cut off the core, which is like a dense cast plastic block .. but curiosity is now getting to me and I'll have to open one up!) and one position a green PIO Russian bypassed with a smaller value Teflon.
 All my recent experiments are around the phono stage (two gain stages with passive filter network) - which is straight into the headphone amp. 
 My first task when I restarted my last go at my system .. (I was guitar building / pickup winding and guitar amp building last few years before) was to re-make the deck (pic. below of the sub chassis - constrained layer with lasered ally sheets and end grain balsa
 [This shot was before finishing and polishing..]
 then I got Jeff (Audiomods) to sandblast my Audiomods arm so it was a nice matt silver to go with the new deck - and I'm still playing with motors, drive electronics, etc (don't have a pic. to hand of the complete deck unfortunately) - I've sent two cartridges off to get them cleaned and refurb'd - so the phono was next in line! For ref. I still use my moving iron AKG P8ES's .. way back I started with a Garrot microscannered one, then moved on to len's (the cartridge man)
  
 A number of years back I spent ages on valve phono's - many variations - thought I'd really cracked it when I went choke input on the psu, but after years of turning my back on tranny gear I gave the Le Pacific types of phono a go, and after a few variations I was smitten - loved the dead quiet background (well no background noise - only what's on the records - with or without battery supply), and I really was stepping up to a higher level of detail retrieval, especially when cap. swapping.
 It's odd, but on the valve phono's, I felt that that cap swapping didn't seem anywhere near as big an issue in terms of detail retrieval as with the tranny phono - with the valve circuits, messing with the type of biasing and psu appeared to be more where it was at, whereas on the current phono, the psu (well I never start with crap designs, or cap's anyway) hasn't made that much difference, whereas the cap's used on my current unit really has changed the throughput a lot!
  
 Back to your question - I haven't really had the time to do thorough A/B testing, however, when I used the same ckt board to do the last build (all except one cap as PETP's) v's the previous teflon infused build, I'd say initially it sounded much leaner, but in fact when listening over a number of records there is definately more small low level detail getting through (for instance I can more clearly make out the reverb tank on guitar amps vibrating around and after notes/chords are struck, which makes it easier to be certain on say which type of amp is being used on a recording .. just getting more ambient info through too.) ..
  
 All I can say is that I've ordered a load more of the Russian PETP's in different values, along with some more of the Russian pale blue/green block polystyrene's, and they'll be in the next version .. I'll also stick with the Welwyn wire wound's were I can get the value's too .. oh, and next time the panasonic smoothing cap's along with the others will be stripped naked and beeswax potted .. just need another order to arrive, and the time (have all the other stuff to hand now)!


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## dimkasta

Unfortunately no 10uF for the 17s...
  
 Damn I hate having so low input impedance on the amps...


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## nhall

Parallel cap's? .. mix your own flavoured cocktail, or is that taboo here?


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## pelopidas

Ok, I jumped on the wood and wax bandwagon.
  
 I got a nice 1" dowel and drilled it out for the K73-16.


 So I went from a small, compact capacitor to a pretty fat one 

 Then I figured, well, since I'm drilling and making a mess, lets try the K73-17 as well.
 So I made a pot for them to sit in.
  

  
 The K73-17 looks like a weird electrolytic now.

  
 So here are the wood and wax k73. I obviously made 2 of each but in the pic its just one of each.
  

  
 How do they sound? Different, really different. I have only been listening to them for the last 15 minutes and while writing this. At this point I don't really know what I am hearing that is different but something is.
 (20 mins later)
 At first I thought the top end was muffled. Some of the air seems gone. But this is not quite the right explanation. The mid and low end are bigger. For some reason it sounds softer but just as detailed. It sounds more like silver mica softness now rather than K72 teflon crispness. Both seem equally detailed but the silver mica is a woman wearing a clingy soft silk dress and the teflon are more like latex. Both have their appeal.
 Voices are smoother, fleshier. Imaging is really good. Overall dynamic seems less but I am still somewhat confused by what I am hearing. I had no Idea wax potting the caps made such an impact.
 Ok sitting here listening to these, it is apparent that they need to be burnt in again. The hot wax pushed some reset button, but they are changing while I am listening to them.
 Enough rambling, I let you know how they turn out in a little bit.
  
 I was thinking about doing this to my teflons FT-3, K72 but I dont know if I should.
  
 First impression: I do not like. Second impression: I am intrigued. Third impression to follow...
 (20 mins later)
 Third impression: These are fantastic!
 What I thought was a reduction in air is actually a much blacker background. The dynamics have come back in full richness.
  
 dimkasta, you said that wax potting smoothed out the sound. Now I know what you mean   What a captivating sound it is. I wonder if this is the sensation that one has listening to the mundorf silver/oil. Smooth, smooth and clear and extended. Thank you for encouraging me to try it.
  
 Ok I should not be writing while listening to music because it leads me to ramble.


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## mcandmar

> Originally Posted by *pelopidas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The K73-17 looks like a weird electrolytic now.


 
  
 Don't know why but the Flintstones popped into my head.
  
 Interesting experiment all the same, do try an FT and let us know as i'm interested to know how it sounds out of the alloy casing.


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## dimkasta

FT-3 is quite easy to do, with excellent results as well. You just need WAY bigger dowels 
 Speaking of dowels, where did you get those lovely 1" ones?
  
 By the way, get some 400 grit sandpaper and do the leads a bit until they are shinny. That is before you apply any solder on them. You won't believe your ears


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## pelopidas

I picked up a long dowel rod at Home Depot. Its about 1 meter long I would guess and cost 4 dollars. I was looking at some beautiful ebony dowels but they are really hard and slightly expensive, instead I wanted to practice on these first. Those small holes are very simple on a drill press. Making the cups is a little more difficult without marring the wood. Now i have to get some fatter dowels and skinnier ones too. But first, I need to finish the case for the amp and make sure I have space for all these little logs.
 The ft-3 are so damn big I will need go go buy more tools as I don't have anything that can make a hole that big. The Diameter is about 1.25"


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## lehmanhill

Hi Guys,
  
 I have really enjoying this current conversation and am just catching up after months away.  By the looks of things, I will be cutting and potting a few inexpensive caps in the future.
  
 Someone wondered about Mundorf Silver/Oil in comparison to some of these Russian + bypass caps.  I have a MyRef Fremen Edition amp (100k input impedance) and have tried several caps as input DC blocking caps (1 uF).  For a long time, my favorite was the K75-10 with a 1 nF Amtrans polyprop bypass cap.  Like others have said, it had a nice warm mid-range, solid bass, and with the bypass a pretty good image and high frequency.  I found the coherence was pretty good at 1/1000 and a single bypass.
  
 Recently, I have tried the Mundorf Silver/Oil as a single cap.  I would say that it gives up a little warmth in the mid-range, but not much.  The big advantage was improved detail and clarity.  The soundstage also seems better.  Overall, depending on the system, I would say that I prefer the Silver/Oil, but then again, not by so much as to offset the price difference.  I hope that helps.
  
 Jac


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## dimkasta

In that case you really need to try the K73-16


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## lehmanhill

dimkasta said:


> In that case you really need to try the K73-16


 

 Oh, I plan to, thanks.  Based on my good experience with Amtrans poly caps, I'm also going to try their mylar cap.  Of course, they are both on a long list of things to do
  
 Speaking of projects, I do have a pair of the Jupiter HT caps.  I haven't listened to them yet because they are part of an unfinished project. 
  
 To answer the question about their outside case, it appears to be cardboard infused with something, perhaps wax.  What is interesting is that the end caps appear to be epoxy where I was expecting wax.  Epoxy might be an interesting potting material for uncasing and potting an oil cap.  I would think that the epoxy would generate much less temperature in the oil and should act as a good seal.  I've seen this approach on the Rike S cap which seems to work pretty well.
  
 Jac


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## nhall

Just for info., here is one of the K75-11's pealed .. these cap's just have a thin plastic wrap (the pale turquoise bits to the left of the bottom picture) over the inner foil/film innards .. the same green ceramic like end seals (very hard to break) - not a lot of work to strip one of these!
 Haven't done the next step on these cap's yet as I just got some, but will report when I do.


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## pelopidas

Give the K73-17 a try as well. I was surprised to find that in my amp these actually are even better than the K73-16. The high end is just a bit more defined and the low end has more body. For input caps, these are the ones that tamed my "wanderlust" through capacitor-land.
  
 Now I am repeating the same with electolytics.
  
 I had some pos Jakson or some such in the psu. Replaced that with Panasonic FC and wow, night and day. But as you all know, us audiophools can just enjoy a good thing. I thought that just a bit more warmth could be had with some Silmic II.
  
 I really hate breaking in capacitors and for the life of me I dont know why I decided to just put these Silmics in there without first breaking them in. 2 days of misery. So much sparkle is gone and especially the decay of delicate sounds but the mids are rich like butter pecan caramel ice cream. Voices are to die for. Everything else is to kill myself for. So I bypassed the Silmic with a K73-17 (because I have a whole bag of em now  and it is much better. But these are not staying. Next up are the Nichicon KZ and Cerafine and if those don't float my boat, a Mundorf Mlytic AG. If that still isnt the answer I will have wasted 40 bucks and go back to the panasonic FC.
  
 I am really amazed at how important the psu is to the overall sound of the amp. The electrolytics have as great an influence as the input caps, maybe even more. 
  
 So this rambling brings me to a question. What electolytics are you running in your amps and psu and are they bypassed or not? Have you tried different caps and what effects did you find?
  
 :edit:
 bypassing the Silmic II with the 2.2uf K73-17 and then a 0.01uf 1837 has become something special, almost magical. The clouds have parted revealing amazing dynamics and crystaline highs, clean and deep bass with this lush mid that makes you feel the breath of the singers. Much, much fuller than the Panasonic FC by itself. However, the bypasses work from the top down and I feel they go to a ceirtain frequency and then drop off in the higher mid range.
  
 This got me thinking and please correct me if I am wrong. I am not an electrical engineer, nor do I play one on TV.
  
 With input caps, size depends on the input impedance of your amp and this dictates how much extension down you have. For a full 20hz -20khz my amp requires about 4.3 uf capacitor as my amp is 20k impedance.
 It is my uneducated theory that in this case the electrical signals behave much like the audio waves in air itself. The high frequency signals can get "lost" in a big room (capacitor) while the bass is still loud and clear. This is why we bypass with small (ie 0.01uf) caps that pretty much only let those high frequencies through.
  
 PSU capacitors don't just power the amp, they are the very electrons that the music is made of. From my brief experimenting it seems that the bypasses on the electrolytics should be much larger than what one generally considers as a bypass.
 If the top end is closed up and there is not enough detail, perhaps it is because the electrolytic cannot feed a stream of 14-20khz.
 So whereas the input capacitor is dealing with reference voltage the psu needs to move the cones of a speaker. So I ordered a few 22uf K73-16 to test this theory. These will have enough capacitance to make a bigger difference vs the 2.2uf that is already installed. My theory is that if 2.2uf brought clarity from 20 - 12khz (guessing) then maybe a 22uf will bring clarity from 20 -1khz (just guessing). I actually don't even know how to measure this but this is just my hypothesis that I will not be able to prove, except through subjective opinion.
  
 Silmic II is supposed to be extremely low ESR, even better than Panasonic FC http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=490633
 so this cannot be the final word in what I am hearing.
  
 Is this worth pursuing or am I way off?


----------



## dimkasta

We usually think of it the other way around.
 Electrons are not "pulled" by the circuit.
 They are allowed to flow through it (least resistance path etc). If the psu does not have the ability to provide the speed that frequencies need, we have rolled of highs, or fluffy bass, or whatever.
 A very good example in this is the Gainclone. The usual schematic gives virtually non-existent bass. Add to it some nice Panasonic 10.000uF electrolytics, and you get a very nice boost.
 Or add some Sikorels and it will blow your mind 
  
 Input caps are a different thing. An ideal load would have infinite input impedance, and the capacitor would not stop any frequencies (perhaps only some because of its dissipation factor, dielectric loses etc).
 In real world though, input caps form a first order highpass filter with the finite input impedance of the next stage, blocking some bass.
  
 My current choice for 22K amps is 10uF and they have a significantly deeper bass in my system in comparison to 4.7uF
  
 Unfortunately no K73-17 caps at 10uF... I might try them on my phono though...


----------



## lehmanhill

pelopidas said:


> Next up are the Nichicon KZ and Cerafine and if those don't float my boat, a Mundorf Mlytic AG.


 
  
 I have used the Mundorf Mlytic AG in the power supply of the MyRef Fremen Edition.  In comparison to the Panasonic FC, they make an audible improvement, especially in the bass.  Apparently, the improved sound quality comes in part from low ESR as the Mundorfs are significantly lower than many.  Worth it in the case of the MyRef, but definitely pricey.
  
 I haven't used bypass caps on the power supply.  There is an alternative.  In my, as yet unfinished, Aleph J amp, I am using 10 Nichicon FW (3300 uF) in parallel for each rail.  By paralleling electrolytics of smaller value, both ESR and ESL are significantly reduced, to the point that the 33,000 uF combined capacitor has an ESR about the same as the Mundorf.  The price of the parallel caps are about 1/2 the cost of the Mundorf of the same size.
  
 Have fun exploring.


----------



## dimkasta

Compared to Panasonic FC I tend to prefer the new line the FRs
  
 They have a better temperature rating and lower ESR
  
 I haven t used them in a main psu filter though...
  
 In my shigaclone I currently use Sikorels at 10000uF and results were phenomenal...


----------



## dimkasta

Has anyone tried the KSO mica caps?
  
 I am currently using Cornel Dubilier silver micas on my phono, but I am going to channel match them soon and I am considering alternatives.
  
 Any other suggestions for a phono?
  
 I need 1000 and 3000pF


----------



## pelopidas

Those are some pretty small values.. I tried the SGM 2400pf silver micas but they are too small for for application. They are pretty though 
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=KSO+Silver+Mica&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xsgm+Silver+Mica&_nkw=sgm+Silver+Mica&_sacat=0
  
 Why not some FT-1 teflons?
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xft-1+teflon&_nkw=ft-1+teflon&_sacat=0


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## nhall

For small values I've been using the good ol' Russian Polystyrene cap's - those block ones that tend to come in pale blue, green, beige .. you can easily peal the outer plastic casing off them with a blade if you feel it worth while, and inside there is just a block of solid resin material (very hard indeed - couldn't easily damage with a blade - it shatters rather than cuts) - only thing to watch out for is that a few I've pealed the case off have not been entirely encased with the resin, and I presume an air bubble in the casting process (looks like they just put the cap leads and innards into the outer shell and pour in the resin mix) has formed exposing the inner foil coils, so I've then potted them up in the beeswax.
  
 These are the chap's I'm talking about:-


----------



## dimkasta

Yes I was considering the FT-1s too. I was just wondering if someone has done some more extensive testing on RIAA networks. Micas have a nice reputation there.


----------



## nhall

Sorry Dimkasta, I couldn't truthfully say specifically one cap v's another here. Problem is I really don't get enough time to do every cap comparisons, but my feelings are that Silva mica's were always rated as good sounding and stable for small value caps in guitar circuits (so I too have a load of them at home, for that job), however, in the past the older generation (were discontinued, but now I understand back by popular demand) European poystyrene's were always rated as a good sounding stable option for RIAA use, so I figured that the ol' Rusky one's would be at least as good, and unlike some of the older European polystyrene's don't have a metal outer jacket.
  
 If you hold the Russian beige one's up to the light you can see what's inside, and where I've taken the jacket off a few  green ones, there's been that air pocket that revealed the innards to be tightly wound long thin cylindrical coil innards (some values appear to be made of two tightly wound coils in parallel between the legs), and then all cast in the resin within the outer box jacket.
  
 I did however build the first phono stage I use with PIO's as per the original, then went to a mix of PETP's / Teflons & these poysterene's (where the values were smaller the poystyrene's fitted the bill), and I can say with absolute truth that the second build was far more detailed, everything was better defined, and bass was nowhere near as overblown, and in fact although initially I thought the bass has got leaner, it really was just properly defined with great timbre and did in fact go lower where it was recorded like that (the previous build gave the impression of far more bass, much heavier and fuller, but anyone could here by comparison that it was artificially so). The highs of course were also more defined and extended.
 In that circuit I did use a 1000pF polystyrene in the EQ, and also used a second one as a paralleling cap over a PETP to get a correct value.
  
 My next build isn't far away (time needed to do all the denuding and potting), and will include Russian PETP's and polystyrene's, all denuded and beeswax potted. I have even potted up the poystyrene's, although they are a solid cast block inside their outer jacket, because I reckon some of the beeswax potting 'majic' may well come from additional damping  .. oh, and from your recommendation I've ordered some Sikorel's to try this time for the on-board electrolytics (just to be consistent I'll denude them too after measuring & pairing).
  
 I think given a bank account full of whatever cash I needed, I'd be trying the Duelund cap's, but I don't feel those Russian poystyrene's have let me down in any way, or held back any detail .. I'll be honest and tell you what happens with the all beeswax potted version one way or the other, regardless of all the time I'll have put in, if it doesn't improve, or isn't that much better than the standard version I'll say .. but looking forward to hearing what all the buzz-zzz is about!


----------



## dimkasta

The biggest value I have seen on Duelund caps is 10nF anyway, so rather not adequate for such RIAA filters...
  
 One of the plus sides of RIAA is that it can be designed for really low values, going into few hundreds or picos, allowing the use of smaller and better quality caps.
  
 I remember Thorsten suggesting the use of variable air caps in his EAR 834p clone. I always wanted to try that, but I am not that comfortable adjusting RIAA values...


----------



## nhall

Those Rusky cap's are so cheap, you won't loose by trying them, I reckon you'll like em. They do low values, so a cheap bag load of them and you can experiment a bit.
  
 [Just a bit of a venting session coming up!]
 I do admit (not here on this forum of course) that I've got to take some of the general stuff out there with a pinch of salt .. too much is said in order to 'join in' and there is a kinda one-upmanship going on with a lot of them out there.
 I've read a lot, and you can easily get sucked into going down a blind alley or following a route and willing yourself to hear differences other wax lyrical about. 
  
 Case in point, I just recently read a thread where someone was citing specific songs and saying how much a set of different phono plugs made in terms of detail retrieval on his system, saying how suddenly he was hearing all this additional low level detail .. well, I wouldn't doubt he heard differences, and those did improve on what he previously had, but come on .. in context ..  unless he'd swapped the cable as well, I sincerely doubt it was 'that' huge an upgrade .. the way it was put you'd think all of a sudden he'd just built a complete new phono stage!
  
 I realise we all want the best for our efforts to be worthwhile, and hope to find the answer out there, but us what build a lot know that some of the gains are quite low level, and it's the cumulative effect we're striving for - but, and it's often the big but - sometimes there's only so far you can push a particular circuit you are working on, and greater gains will be found elsewhere in the chain.
  
 [Little true store from times of yor]
 I had a really shocking experience many years ago when I'd spent some time (I was single then and had more time to play too) taking a particular (well thought of) valve stage to it's ultimate level of reg'd this that and the other, with expensive cap's and you name it (actually thinking back this was pre the internet really happening for the common man), and I met someone who I became mates with who had taught himself to design and build his own transformers .. anyway long storey short, I had just been to the big Ramada HiFi show (as it was then just outside London) and had been very impressed with what AudioNote was then demo'ing, and the huge sounds from a full range horn system also demo'd there, anyway, I went round his gaff to hear his system (see what he was doing with his transformers), and was completely knocked over with his system .. it literately looked like a pile of old crap 70's bit of HiFi equipment, bits of wire and tatty old cases, etc.. but boy, it's sound was the most realistic presentation I'd ever heard .. and he being a classical music fan got a lot of instrument separation in full orchestral works .. some other guys I later met (one had the then full AudioNote system with top silver IO cart / top Helius arm / Voyd ref turntable and huge outboard psu/ silver AN phono & pre and the Ongaku amp.. and he was also floored by this guy's system ..
 Well, even now I know what's in that system circuit wise, I still don't know how it sounded as good as it did .. he only had a mid priced Ortophon mc, a hugely tweaked up Thorens t/t, and all the components for all his home built equipment were salvaged parts as he rarely had two ha-pennies to rub together .. one guy who came around one time decided to copy all his front end equipment, only thinking he'd be clever, bought a lot of very expensive cap's resistors, etc .. guess what .. his never ever sounded anywhere near as good as that guy's equipment!! - Now I'm not trying to claim there's 'magic' out there (I don't believe in it), and I'm not saying it's a bad idea to get the best you can afford - but what I'm trying to demo is that sometimes you can go too far on small things and miss a bigger picture!
  
 BTW I still don't really see what made his system so good (yes, for his gear you'd really claim the players were in the room with you) .. but there were a couple of advantages he had - 1. He'd taught himself how to use the old test equipment he had thoroughly, to the point where he could really use it to see deep into what he was doing - 2. by designing his own transformers actually with the output values he used gave him a huge advantage over most DIY'ers - 3. he couldn't ever afford expensive gear, so learned were to find good quality parts, and how to make what he couldn't afford to buy (not cap's .. he just learned what old gear he could pick up for nothing that had good industrial grade parts in them .. though he did sometimes make his own resistors when need be)  .. 4. and he never got hung up on fancy parts - if the circuit didn't get him where he wanted to be, he'd dig in and try another route (his place was just littered with old crappy chassis and different builds!
  
 BTW I did build a few of the Thorsten circuits a few years back - although clearly good, I personally didn't think they were as hugely impressive as the billing made them out to be .. so I went other directions..
  
 Don't get me wrong, I do personally like all this tweakery, and will be doing this beeswaxing business throughout the next build, but after that will leave it there, as I think I'll be in danger of chasing stardust.
  
 I know it's off topic, but in a parallel way to the above, thought it was a worthwhile read to bring one down to earth again:
 http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
  
 Chow for now..


----------



## JamieMcC

nhall said:


> For small values I've been using the good ol' Russian Polystyrene cap's - those block ones that tend to come in pale blue, green, beige .. you can easily peal the outer plastic casing off them with a blade if you feel it worth while, and inside there is just a block of solid resin material (very hard indeed - couldn't easily damage with a blade - it shatters rather than cuts) - only thing to watch out for is that a few I've pealed the case off have not been entirely encased with the resin, and I presume an air bubble in the casting process (looks like they just put the cap leads and innards into the outer shell and pour in the resin mix) has formed exposing the inner foil coils, so I've then potted them up in the beeswax.
> 
> These are the chap's I'm talking about:-


 
 I tried some of those polystyrenes in my head amp and was very impressed with the initial results, they ultimately proved to be to fatiguing for extended listening anything more than a hour with them was to much for me with my T1's  my HD650 was a better pairing. 
  
 Ultimately the Russian teflons combined with some pio proved a more refined experience in my case even besting (just) some expensive Mundorf M-caps.


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## dimkasta

What values do you use and what is their position?


----------



## JamieMcC

90uf made up of 3x30uf mbgo + the Teflon bypass they are the output coupling capacitors for a OTL tube amp.


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## dimkasta

Try using the thickest wire you can, and attach the signal wiring to the middle of the rails to minimize and balance inductances and resistances between the caps that might introduce weird stuff in the sound.
  
 From what I remember there are also some MBG caps at 100uF which should give a cleaner sound than 3 smaller ones in parallel.


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## dimkasta

Further to vibration damping, I got some Dynamat today to dampen my turntable platter, and of course I had to test it on caps too.
  
 Very nice results  Love it and very easy to apply... I think I found an easy replacement for wood/wax


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## lehmanhill

nhall said:


> I realise we all want the best for our efforts to be worthwhile, and hope to find the answer out there, but us what build a lot know that some of the gains are quite low level, and it's the cumulative effect we're striving for - but, and it's often the big but - sometimes there's only so far you can push a particular circuit you are working on, and greater gains will be found elsewhere in the chain.......
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I do personally like all this tweakery, and will be doing this beeswaxing business throughout the next build, but after that will leave it there, as I think I'll be in danger of chasing stardust.


 
 nhall,
  
 The key thing here is for each person to find what sounds good to them, in their system, and enjoy the process.  I guess that is why these inexpensive Russian caps make for a fun project.
  
 That said, I have tried a range of caps based on the reviews of guys like Jon (here) and Tony Gee (humble homemade hifi).  I have been surprised that, even though my system is very different from theirs, I found their reviews to be true to my experience in most cases.  Unfortunately, that has led me to try a few more expensive caps that I would have never believed I would have paid for a few years ago.
  
 Have fun.


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## mcandmar

2nd that.  I've used a variety of different caps from Russians, Mundorfs, Claritys, Solens, Wimas etc and my finding were pretty much the same as what those guys said in their reviews.    I did recently pick up a set of Jupiter caps at a reduced price, but as you say I would have never believed I would pay that much for caps a few years ago, or lust after headphones with four digit price tags.  Its all going down hill...


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## JamieMcC

Its a slippery slope and my cap box runneth over and that's not even all of them! Luckily I have a couple of projects coming up. Its proving to be both a lot of fun and educational plus relatively inexpensive compare to past hobbies such as scuba, fishing, archery etc and if needs be they can all go on the bay.


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## dimkasta

I have the exact same Stanley case filled with awesomeness 
  
 I need to get a few more though...


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## lehmanhill

With all this discussion about the Russian caps, I realized that there wasn't a review of the K71-4 polystyrene Russian cap. I have used this cap as an input DC blocking cap, a small value bypass cap, and as part of a tweeter passive crossover and it has been one of my favorite, low cost caps. It's definitely larger than most polypropylene caps of the same value, but at an ebay price of about $2 for a 1 uF cap, it is very cost effective. They are available in values from 0.01 to 10 uF that makes them useful in a wide range of projects. Other polystyrene caps, both US/Euro sources and other Russian sources are typically smaller values in the pF range.
  
 Traditionally, polystyrene has been thought of as a good material for caps that are stable and linear at high frequencies. In the case of the K71-4, this is true, but they are also capable of cleanly passing the whole range of audio frequencies with overall excellent balance. For example, used as a full frequency range, input cap on an amplifier, the K71-4 (1 uF) has excellent deep bass, clear and uncolored mid-range, and very good high frequencies. Their sound stage is very good and the detail provided is very good for the price range. Their overall character is balanced, but a little on the cool side. If you have a system that is already warm, the K71-4 might be an excellent match. On the other hand, if you are looking for that mid-range warmth that you can find with a bypassed K75-10, then the K71-4 probably isn't your choice.
  
 So, how do they fit into my full range of caps? In my opinion, they easily beat Obbligato Gold, Jantzen Superior Z, and Sonicap Gen 1 because the K71-4 is balanced and more neutral, at least in my system. I find the K71-4 on par with the Audyn Plus caps, just a little different trade-off in character. I was surprised to find that they have a similar character to the Mundorf Supreme caps, very neutral and slightly laid-back, however, the Supreme seems to have quieter backgrounds and more detail that make them worth a bit more. At least in my experience, it takes seriously more expensive caps such as the Rike S-Cap and Mundorf Silver Oil before the detail and sound stage are significantly improved.
  

  
 In a crossover, anytime you need a relatively large value for a tweeter section, K71-4 are worth a try. I have two 10 uF and two 1 uF in parallel to form a 22 uF cap in my crossover. Once again, I compared this combination to Audyn Plus and Obbligato Gold and chose the K71's.
  
 One more thought. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but K71-4 caps are a good candidate for peeling the aluminum outer to see if it opens up the sound. All polystyrene caps are film and foil caps and these don't have any oil, so going naked should be a straight forward proposition.


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## dimkasta

They look like the K73s so be careful stripping them. They are easy to snap the leads


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## lehmanhill

I'm sure they were built by the same company as the K73's.  They appear to be the same aluminum tube with rolled crimps in each end.


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## JamieMcC

Well there is only one way to find out so keeping a open mind I'm also going to try having a play with some inexpensive Russian Teflons to see what happens.
  
 This is the progress so far with my first attempt.
  
 Cutting the ends off was quiet easy with a pipe cutter pulling the ends of was a little nerve wracking as I was unsure how the would separate from the actual caps but the pins that stick out are turned out to be attached (soldered) to some short flexible leads which look like they could actually be silver, My tube amp can get quiet warm inside  space is at a premium so I decided to use a resin instead of a wax. While I just poured the resin in I want to try another method in the future as I have a small vacuum pump and think it should be possible to infuse the resin into the wood tube under vacuum to ensure there are no voids or airspaces within and give some confidence in uniformity and repeatability.
  
 I will give it clean up and apply a coat of oil or varnish to the wood to make it look a bit more pretty on the outside the oil most probably not sure which type but I have noticed in the past with building and oiling wooden amp enclosures some types of oil will give off a lovely aroma when they start to warm up so will try and find something interesting sent wise to try I feel a raid on my other half's essential oil collection coming on!
  
  
  

  
  
  

  

  

  
 In this last pic this cap is meant to be a copper foil picked up on ebay for not a lot http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181377230306?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
  
 but its clearly not with no sign of any copper any ware in its construction to be seen so beware.


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## pelopidas

Well? Don't keep us hanging 
  
 How does it sound? Do you notice a difference with the denuded teflons?
  
 My good friend just got married and I have him my amp as a wedding present, since every time he came over, he loved listening to it as much as I did.
  
 This is good news for me  since I get to start over and refine everything, from components to layout. One of the things I hadn't tried yet were FT-1 and I too want to strip them down and put them in a wax tomb. Although, it seems dynamat might be quicker and easier. There is something about stipping it down and recasing it that makes it feel like its yours and that its more special.


----------



## Doc Now

Are this caps  http://www.thel-audioworld.de/bauteile/glimmX/glimmx.htm  unknown in the US Hifi circles?
 They came from Cornell Dubilier and have a very good reputation in Germany.


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## dimkasta

I have not tested those, but I have tried the Cornel Dubilier silver micas on my phono and my CD transport with excellent results. Smaller values though at 1nF and 3nF. The CD ones are cheaper as well. The 47nF cost something around 35euros if I remember correctly
  
 By the way, I received a batch of 20 3nF FT-1s to check on my phono, but some of them were duds. That was the first time I came something like that in russian caps. About half of them were measuring ~1,4nF and the dissipation factor was all over the place. I managed to get 2 matched pairs with almost 0 D, but I had to discard around 10 of them as absolutely not usable.
  
 As a first indication, the leads were almost black and had to be sanded. I guess they were stored in very bad conditions since it is the first time I see something like this, and I have bought a lot of Russians in the past.


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## pelopidas

dimkasta, have you tried denuding the damaged FT-1's to see if it is just the exterior leads that are damaged? It would be interesting to know if the inside is still intact.


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## dimkasta

I sanded the leads so they must be some issue with their innards as well. I will tear one apart and photograph it 
  
 I also received some K71-7 yesterday with 0.5% tolerances. They measure superbly on my CLR. It will take some time before I test them though. My Salas folded phono still needs lots of work...


----------



## lehmanhill

dimkasta said:


> By the way, I received a batch of 20 3nF FT-1s to check on my phono, but some of them were duds. That was the first time I came something like that in russian caps. About half of them were measuring ~1,4nF and the dissipation factor was all over the place. I managed to get 2 matched pairs with almost 0 D, but I had to discard around 10 of them as absolutely not usable.
> 
> As a first indication, the leads were almost black and had to be sanded. I guess they were stored in very bad conditions since it is the first time I see something like this, and I have bought a lot of Russians in the past.


 
 I have had a similare experience with FT-1s.  From three batches, it seems like 1 or 2 in 10 arrive bad.  I contacted the seller, told him so many were out of spec, and he refunded that portion of my order.  I haven't had this trouble with any other Russian caps, including other teflon caps, but I understand that the FT-1 uses a very thin teflon film and that with age, holes in the film can develop and degrade the caps.
  
 I never expected perfect results from NOS parts.  The recommendation is to buy a few extra if you buying FT-1s.


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## dimkasta

Perfectly sensible suggestion


----------



## Jazzwallah

Hi Jon
I have really found your musings on capacitors worthwhile in my mods. I am thinking of using .68 K75-10 capacitor and considering bypassing it with the V cap TFTF as you suggested in your post earlier in the thread. However reading your assessment of the Vcap CUTF I would like to consider it as the bypass for the K75-10.. Have you or any members of this forum tried this capacitor combination?. Your thoughts would be appreciated.


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## dimkasta

In what position?


----------



## samoloko

I really like to know from people dealing with russian caps how Is possible to find them better compared to new and highly priced and speced rivals
 well I tryed russian K75-10 2.2 uF bypased with 0.1 FT3 In out coupling position Instead of MKP - the result - complete lack of bass and highly distorted unnatural sound
 sure there Is a difference but I doubt that Is for better


----------



## JamieMcC

samoloko said:


> I really like to know from people dealing with russian caps how Is possible to find them better compared to new and highly priced and speced rivals
> well I tryed russian K75-10 2.2 uF bypased with 0.1 FT3 In out coupling position Instead of MKP - the result - complete lack of bass and highly distorted unnatural sound
> sure there Is a difference but I doubt that Is for better


 
  
 Well its a  subjective subject and not all combinations are going to work so it is very much a case of trial and error.
  
 I have a couple of favourite cap combinations which are not audio caps. On of my favourite combos are these mgbo pio with Teflon bypasses total cost about £20 they replaced a pair of Mundorfs which cost £80 a pair, the Mundorfs are now in the parts box. I also have some Jantzen Z caps and they work brilliantly in one amp but in another amp I found them very fatiguing and had to take them out in the end as I could only bare to listen for about 30-40 minuets at a time.
  
 The rule of thumb with bypassing seems to be best results come from using a bypass cap that is about a 100th of the value of the cap being bypassed 100uf =1uf bypass. Going lower seems to work as well. Going higher in value is often when the problems start to appear.
  
 Something to think about is that the teflons take simply ages to burn in before revelling their true nature  200-500hrs is not uncommon and sometimes they can also be pretty much unlistenable to at times whilst burning in.


----------



## samoloko

you have 90 uF MBGO bypassed with much lower then 1/100 value of K72
 which Mundorf replaced MBGO ? Supreme ?
 what Is charackter of MBGO
 I have used 10 uF MBGO as a power decoupling and find them too fluid and with lack of control, and very natural
 did you tried Mundorf Evo Oil


----------



## JamieMcC

It was a standard Mundorf mkp 100uf don't get me wrong they are superb sounding capacitors I just preferred the Russian caps for this particular application there really was not much to choose between them save for the price/ I can assure you they would be out in a flash if I didn't think they where much cop. The thing with them I find is they could almost be described as boring when you first listen to the combination there is no wow factor at all its only after a while that it dawned on me that the sound is a shade more natural in presentation and tone.
  
 At the larger uf values the boutique caps can cost a arm and a leg so its good to have options.


----------



## pelopidas

Samoloko,
I tried pretty much the same combination, 2.2uf k75-10 bypassed with an FT-3. If you read a few pages back you will see that dimkasta and I also discussed this very combo. It seems to us all that 2.2uf k75-10 are just plain bad. Dimkasta noted that his large value (10uf if I remember) sounded good but I never tried those. K73-16 were a breath of fresh air after the 75's and are also better than Daytons or entry level mundorfs. They are neutral and revealing. Use your ft-3 on those and let that combo burn in for a good long while.


----------



## JamieMcC

These k75-40b's 100uf's pulse caps are simply epic but I'm going too need a bigger amp they have a different sonic character to the k75-10's.
  
 I'm planning on building a OTL amp around them and some big 35 step rotary switched attenuators still collecting parts its going to be a fun project with all film caps.
  

  

  

  
 Borrowed pics of the same switches


----------



## pelopidas

So what is the sonic character? Don't just leave us hanging!


----------



## samoloko

pelopidas said:


> Samoloko,
> I tried pretty much the same combination, 2.2uf k75-10 bypassed with an FT-3. If you read a few pages back you will see that dimkasta and I also discussed this very combo. It seems to us all that 2.2uf k75-10 are just plain bad. Dimkasta noted that his large value (10uf if I remember) sounded good but I never tried those. K73-16 were a breath of fresh air after the 75's and are also better than Daytons or entry level mundorfs. They are neutral and revealing. Use your ft-3 on those and let that combo burn in for a good long while.


 
 thank you for reply
  
 good to hear that I am not only one that dislikes K75-10
 I am searching for a cap to replace 82 uF non polar electrolytic coupling cap
 If you are sure that K73-16 Is better then Dayton that Is very good because these caps are used In highly priced loudspeakers


----------



## JamieMcC

samoloko said:


> thank you for reply
> 
> good to hear that I am not only one that dislikes K75-10
> I am searching for a cap to replace 82 uF non polar electrolytic coupling cap
> If you are sure that K73-16 Is better then Dayton that Is very good because these caps are used In highly priced loudspeakers


 
  
 How much space and what voltage? These 89uf 250v +/-  2.5% Epcos worked well for me .
  
http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6096462870.html
  
 In action used both as coupling cap and in power supply. There wasn't much difference between them and a Solen or JFX film audio caps. I brought five for $27.80 including shipping in May


----------



## dimkasta

Samoloko, Pelopidas said it all
  
 But the biggest problem with the K75 was in the lack of highs, not so much on the lows. In fact I would call them rather sweet and darkish. And no amount of bypassing fixed things me (in fact I hate bypassing signal caps altogether). What is your amp's input impedance? Perhaps you need a bigger value.
  
 For 22K amp, I found that 10uF had a very distinct effect for the lows with all the speakers I have tested.


----------



## samoloko

jamiemcc said:


> How much space and what voltage? These 89uf 250v +/-  2.5% Epcos worked well for me .


 
 thank you for support but space Is very limited - 30 x 70
  


dimkasta said:


> Samoloko, Pelopidas said it all
> 
> But the biggest problem with the K75 was in the lack of highs, not so much on the lows. In fact I would call them rather sweet and darkish. And no amount of bypassing fixed things me (in fact I hate bypassing signal caps altogether). What is your amp's input impedance? Perhaps you need a bigger value.
> 
> For 22K amp, I found that 10uF had a very distinct effect for the lows with all the speakers I have tested.


 
  
 I tryed  K75-10 2.2 uF at DAC output coupling after DAC there Is 20 K pot, UGS v3, and finally F5 with 100 K Input Impedance


----------



## dimkasta

Try k73-16 at 10uF and you will not regret it...


----------



## mcandmar

Any chance anybody knows the differences between the various Russian box caps?
  
 I'm looking for 2.2uf or larger and there seems to be a bewildering array of variants from K73P-2, MBGO, MBGC, MBGCH, MBGP, MPGP, KBG-P, OMBG, OKBG, Green ones, Brown ones, Silver ones, square ones, thin ones.  Sheez.
  
 Anybody?


----------



## JamieMcC

Hi Mark, I remember seeing a couple of pages on the net on a different forum (I will take a look later see if I can find the site) that match the codes against construction type.


----------



## JamieMcC

From this link sorry I forgot
  
http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=898
  

 K15-4 Ceramic HV "doorknobs"
 K15-5 Ceramic HV Disc

 K31 Silver Mica "kidney bean" style cap

 K40P-2B Paper in Oil, 5% tol.
 K40U-9V Paper In Oil , Silver body, 10% tol.

 K41-1A PIO, High Voltage "Pulse" caps

 K42U-2 PIO, green painted body (K75 are better)

 K50 Aluminum Electrrolytic

 K71-7V Polystyrol "High Tolerance" 1% or 2% tol.

 K72P-6 Teflon Dielectric 5% tol. (see example below)

 K73-14 PETP High Voltage
 K73-15 PETP / Dry Mylar
 K73-16 PETP / Dry mylar
 K73P-4 "tub " style AC capacitors (may be paper or mylar, still TBD)

 K74 HV caps

 K75 Polyprop In Oil

 K75-10 PIO, Green body (these are the prime quality PIO)
 K75-15 PIO, High Voltage "tub"
 K75-17 PIO High Voltage "tub"
 K75-24 PIO Green body tubular (see example below)
 K75-28 PIO High Voltage "tub"

 BMT-2 Paper In Oil

 FGT High Voltage Teflon Dielectric, Ceramic body (almost beer can size)

 FT-1 Teflon Military Grade glass sealed, aluminum body (smallerst)
 FT-2 Teflon Military Grade glass sealed, aluminum body
 FT-3 Teflon Military Grade glass sealed, aluminum body (largest)

 KBG PIO (no, this isn't the KGB, they're a different entity altogether)

 KBI HV "doorknob" RF / Transmitting cap

 KSO Silver-Mica "precision" caps

 MBG Paper-Aluminum "tub" AC caps


----------



## JamieMcC

Trying out some paper in wax Ampohms in my BH Sex


----------



## jazzwave

jamiemcc said:


> Trying out some paper in wax Ampohms in my BH Sex



 


What is previoust caps in BH SEX ? Please share your impression after upgraded to paper in wax Ampohms 


regards
~ron~


----------



## JamieMcC

jazzwave said:


> jamiemcc said:
> 
> 
> > Trying out some paper in wax Ampohms in my BH Sex
> ...


 
  
 Hi Ron
  
 The stock caps were I believe standard Solen films and some inter-stage polyesters (no markings) and sonic wise where already very good the first thing I tried was bypassing them with some Jantzen Supremes which I had in my parts box this actually worked amazingly well and  I was actually very impressed with the difference they made, particularly increased resolution and smoothness.
  
 The Ampohms were a spur of the moment ebay purchase at a significant discount to the retail price while they do not quite give quiet the same depth of resolution the Jantzens added they have improved timber and tone, mid range vocal presentation has been the most noticeable difference with more body and is beautifully textured which is much more to my personal taste. I am hoping they will improve further with further play time.


----------



## jazzwave

I plan to buy Ampohms for my Cayin A70, but in the middle change to Mundord MCap Supreme after read this link
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Got 4 pieces MCap Supreme for $48, I wish I will hear improvement from stock caps 
 I'm still curious with Ampohms caps sound

~ron~.


----------



## lehmanhill

K75 are great in some systems.  But there is definitely a measure of luck to make it work.
  
 As others have said, it depends on the system and how you are applying it.
  
 I recently did a coupling cap (1.0 uF) comparison recently that included Mundorf Silver-Oil, Supreme, Rike S-Cap, and a bypassed K75-10 using a 1 nF Amtrans AMCH bypass.  This particular exercise also included another cap at a low frequency roll-off position.  Different combinations worked best together, but the bypassed K75-10 held it's own with these other choices.  In the end, the Silver-Oil and Rike had more detail and sparkle at the top, but the K75 can work well when the rest of the system filled in the top end.  I also like using them for bass speakers when you have an active crossover.  My current project is a pair of LXmini speakers with a DSP crossover.  The coupling cap on the bass speaker amplifiers will be K75 with bypass.
  
 In a passive crossover, I am using a combination of 2.2 and 4.7 uF in parallel to make a 30 uF cap for a bass speaker crossover.  I agree that the big steel post K75's (2.2 and 4.7) are not as good as the copper lead K75s (1 uF and smaller), but that combination of K75s in my crossover were better than Obbligato Gold and Audyn Plus in that position.
  
 I do agree with the comments that a smaller bypass is often better.  In my coupling cap K75 I'm at a 1:1000 ratio.  I've tried 3 nF (1:333) and a 0.01 uF (1:100) and both of them hurt the bass and made the  combination sound bright.
  
 I also agree that one needs to be very patient with teflon, especially the old Russian caps.  I've tried polypropylene (Amtrans and ERO), polystyrene (K71-4 and K71-7), teflon (FT-1), paper-in-oil (K40Y-9), and paper-in-wax (BM-2) as bypass caps.  In my opinion, it is better to use a small cap of a similar material to the big cap in a bypass role rather than a material that is very different.  The 2 paper caps and the polypropylene caps seem to be a good match for a darker hybrid paper-in-oil like the K75 or K40 big cap.  The styrene and teflon didn't seem to integrate well.  The size of the cap is just as effective at improving the high frequency as the material, maybe more so.
  
 I hope everybody has fun playing.  I do.  I haven't gotten around to getting the K73-16 that you guys have recommended, but it's on the to do list.
  
 Jac


----------



## zycomatique

Hi,
  
 I'd like to know what is the best cap for decoupling in power supply? Is there russian ones?
  
 Thanks: david


----------



## lehmanhill

Hi David,
  
 Could you explain a bit more about your usage?  What do you mean by a power supply coupling cap?  Also voltage requirements?
  
 Jac


----------



## Jimmy24

I'm looking for some Dayton 100uF 250V Film Caps. I found these for 75% off. The site looks fishy though, has anyone purchased from them before?
  
 http://www.andrestroya.com/new2015capacitors9.php/dayton-audio-dmpc100-100uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor-p-11294.html
  
 Thanks,
  
 James


----------



## JamieMcC

jimbo24 said:


> I'm looking for some Dayton 100uF 250V Film Caps. I found these for 75% off. The site looks fishy though, has anyone purchased from them before?
> 
> http://www.andrestroya.com/new2015capacitors9.php/dayton-audio-dmpc100-100uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor-p-11294.html
> 
> ...


 

  Hi James I noticed they want to ne paid with iTunes gift cards which looks very fishy, nice price for the Daytons I am tempted.


----------



## mcandmar

"iTunes gift cards" What lol
  
 I posted a link a few pages back for ClarityCap PX 250v 100uf from Partsconnexion for $25 each, seems a good deal to me.


----------



## JamieMcC

I noticed these 100uf 250V Audiophiler capacitors the other day for $14.50 with free shipping with 3% tolerances on the face of it they look decent enough and inexpensive enough for a big film cap to be worthy of a try in the future. I have brought quiet a bit off of the Aliexpress site over the last 12 months and the only problem I have experienced was once a pair of rubber knee patches turned up when I was expecting some capacitors I was quickly given a full refund by the seller. I chuckled at the thought that who ever was expecting the rubber patches might have received my capacitors.
  
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/1PC-Axial-Polypropylene-250V-100uF-Audiophiler-MKP-Capacitor-Vintage-Tube-Amplifier-Speaker-Circuit-Crossover/326582_32229590718.html


----------



## mcandmar

I tried a pair of those Audiophilers in an RA1 clone and they were pretty terrible, the Mundorf MCaps and Claritycap ESAs were way better in the same circuit. They are pretty cheap though, and a nice option for power supply duty, but for the audio path i would pay the extra $10 for those Claritycaps.


----------



## JamieMcC

Hi Mark interesting info thanks I am expecting a care package next week I couldn't just resit having a bid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231438541917?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## mcandmar

99p lol, you didnt have much competition did you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ...they have an interesting terminal style, should make for some easy mounting on nylon standoffs.


----------



## JamieMcC

lol no I was really surprised I was the only bidder my maximum bid was set somewhat higher and I do feel a bit guilty about winning them but am in discussion to purchase a few more at a higher price from the seller.   I have the spec sheet for them and the terminals are actually tin plated solid copper .


----------



## Jimmy24

Can someone tell me how to replace the caps on the Crack with 100uF 250v Film Caps? Does it have polarity? Also, if I wanted to add more wire to it to extend it, does it matter what color wires I'm using?


----------



## skeptic

jimbo24 said:


> Can someone tell me how to replace the caps on the Crack with 100uF 250v Film Caps? Does it have polarity? Also, if I wanted to add more wire to it to extend it, does it matter what color wires I'm using?




Orientation and wire color don't matter with film caps. Securing them to the chassis is the the most challenging part. Enjoy!

Caveat: if you hook up the inner foil of the cap towards the output, you theoretically minimize noise, but personally I cant hear a difference.


----------



## Jimmy24

skeptic said:


> Orientation and wire color don't matter with film caps. Securing them to the chassis is the the most challenging part. Enjoy!
> 
> Caveat: if you hook up the inner foil of the cap towards the output, you theoretically minimize noise, but personally I cant hear a difference.


 
 Thank you for that reply. Now I can finally begin the process. Sorry, I'm a total newbie with film caps. What part of the cap would be the inner foil?


----------



## JamieMcC

jimbo24 said:


> Thank you for that reply. Now I can finally begin the process. Sorry, I'm a total newbie with film caps. What part of the cap would be the inner foil?


 

 Unless you have a oscilloscope to test a general rule of thumb observed from looking at the expensive capacitors where inner out foils are identified is the signal flows from left to right in the same direction as when looking at the text on the labelling of the capacitor.  It really shouldn't matter in the Crack so I wouldn't worry to much about it.


----------



## skeptic

This thread on bh expands on jamie's post above and describes how you can test it by putting ac across the cap. http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=2366.0

A guy near the end also indicates that he spoke with solen and was told that the longer lead is outer foil.


----------



## Jimmy24

Sorry, I guess this post will be better in the Crack thread.


----------



## Jasper9395

In the last couple of months I have been playing around with a bunch of Russian capacitors the K71-4, the MBM, FCH, MBGO-2, K40Y9, K72P-6, K73-16 and K73-11. In that time I have been visiting this thread quite a bit for information so I decided I should make a nice post about my experiences as some of these caps have not been mentioned yet. I have used these capacitors in a variety of applications; as input coupling caps in a modified Musical Fidelity A3-CR, in the crossover of my speakers, and inside a pre-amp which I am working on.
  
*Input Capacitors*​  
*Clarity cap SA (10uf) Mundorf Supreme (1uf) and Vishay MKP1837 (0.01uf)*
  
 The combination of Clarity Cap SA and Mundorf Supreme is something Tony Gee of humble home made hifi suggests. I had these capacitors inside another amp which is why I gave these a try (I had them laying around anyway). Of course this was quite an improvement over the original Teapo capacitor. Overall this combination of capacitors is dark and lush sounding. While they did represent a big improvement over the Teapo capacitors this combination of capacitors is beaten in every way by the capacitors I experimented with after.   
  
*Russian MBM (1uf) paper in wax capacitor with Rifa PHE840 (8.2uf)* *film and foil polypropylene*
  
 This is a very interesting combination of capacitors which was suggested to my by a friend. It represents great bang for buck in a small package. Immediately I was amazed at how different the amplifier sounded first of all there was an openness to the sound which cannot be achieved with the Clarity Cap which sounds closed and congested in comparison. It became possible to easily pinpoint each instrument separately, each instrument now had air around it; breathing room. There was also a definite increase in tonality or timbre making the overall sound more natural. The highs are relatively smooth and have good extension, here too everything sounded more realistic. Overall this is a very good combination especially for the money. The only thing I have against it is that the low bass notes are just not very prominent with this combination. In quality of the bass is good but things are just a bit forward sounding, bass really remains in the background while not having much body. To add some lushness I tried adding a the 1uf Mundorf Supreme cap but this made everything sound more congested and more localised to the speakers. This made me remove the Mundorf caps again.
  
 MBM (1uf wax) and Rifa PHE840 (8.2uf film and foil polypropylene)
  

  
*K71-4 (10uf polystyrene)*
  
 The K71-4 are great capacitors. My experience with them was rather interesting. Previously whenever I have replaced components there have always been positive and negative effects. With the K71-4 this is not the case. When I installed them everything got better. They do their job without ever drawing attention to themselves. These capacitors do not seem to add anything to the music which makes it easy to forget that they are there at all. Compared to the combination of MBM and PHE840 these capacitors do everything the previous caps do right but improve things in a few important places. Overall these capacitors sound very neutral to me, perhaps slightly forward but this is a matter of taste. Highs and lows have great extension while the music becomes more detached from the speakers. These caps bring the sound into the room much more than the previous combination of capacitors. I consider the bass of the caps to be one of their strong points. I find that they strike a good balance between being punchy while also retaining enough body and lushness. Another advantage of this capacitor is that it is smoother sounding than many of the teflon capacitors. The leading edges of sounds are not as sharp, the transients seem more natural. It is however not as transparent as some teflon capacitors when I added a K72P-6 (0.01 uf) the sound became much more transparent while soundstage and detail were improved. The combination of K71-4 and K72P-6 is very good but also more forward sounding and slightly sterile. This made me add the 1uf MBM capacitors to this combination which gives everything just made everything more organic. It gave the sound a bit more body while reducing the forwardness while keeping the great transparency, detail, and soundstage. 
  
 After quite a bit of experimentation I ended up with a 10uf K71-4, 0.25uf MBM 700v and 0.1uf K72-6P. The input impedance of my amp is 31K; I might still mess around with this a bit.
  
 K71-4 next to the Teapo NP which it replaced. These things are HUGE!!
  

  
 K71-4's inside the Musical Fidelty A3-CR mounted on wooden struts.
  

  
*MBGO-2* *(2uf)*
  
 I tried these briefly in parallel with the PHE840. They are incredibly spacious, more so than any capacitor I have listened to, the sound seemed completely detached from the speakers. They are also extremely warm lush sounding bass is bloomy but not uncontrolled.
  
*FCH* *(0.25uf) Teflon*
  
 I have used these in a very simple passive pre amp which I have built. I have been using it for a couple of weeks now so the caps must be burned in by now. The amp I built only has six components on each channel. There are only two caps on each channel and both of those are FCH caps. I did experiment with one FCH and one MBM but ended up just using the FCH caps. What I cans say is that the FCH is the type of capacitor which is able pull off a disappearing act; its sound signature is very neutral. It is transparent, open, and spacious in these departements it is probably close to, or on the same level as the K72-6P. They are also very confident sounding bass is nicely controlled. Last another plus is that these are relatively inexpensive at 3USD a piece. I have not seen any of a different value than 0.25uf though.
  
 The MBGO-2 and FCH capacitors
  

  
  
*Crossover*​  
 My speakers are a called the LBS (low budget speaker) designed by Tony Gee. While these are called 'low budget' they are pretty good. I spent about 600 euros building them and I am not frequently impressed when I walk into hifi shops. Anyway, inside these there is a crossover which uses a zobel network, to save on parts cost of course. You can have a look at the design here. I did not originally intend to start messing with the corssover but once I realised how good and cheap these Russian NOS I started experimenting. I surprised myself with how much things have improved. 
  
*K73-11 (2.2uf) PETP/terephthalate*
  
 I used these terephthalates to parallel with the 3.3uf Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap in the signal path of the tweeter which brought quite an improvement to the speakers. The most noticeable thing is that the sound opened up, there just seemed to be a lot more air between instruments. There was also an increase in treble detail while it also became more extended. I am happy with the amount of detail form the speakers, which has increased without the speaker becoming overly analytical. The most surprising improvement was in the lower end of the spectrum. Before the bass had a tendency to sound quite boxy but this was somewhat alleviated. The sound signature of the speakers did become a tad more forward after this modification but this was later corrected when I worked on the crossover some more.
  
*K73-16 (22uf) PETP/terephthalate*
  
Because of the success I had with the K73-11 I bought some K73-16 caps (also PETP) as these come in the large 22uf value I needed to replace the Jantzen Audio Cross Cap in the crossover. Overall the sound became much smoother, before the sound seemed to have a bit of a harshness to it. The Jensen Cross Caps also seem to really emphasise the 'S' and 'T' quite a bit. This problem was gone after adding the K73-16. Another positive effect was that the sound brought more into the room. Further the K73-11 also gave me increased insight into the mids while getting rid of more of the boxynes.The negative points of these caps are that the lower mids are a bit recessed and the bass is quite thin compared to the Cross Cap. Overall, although they are extremely transparent I would say these caps are also quite forward and a bit cold sounding. As reported on this thread bypassing these with a K72-6P works quite well.
  
*K40Y9 (0.22uf)* *Paper in Oil*
  
 I have tried to use the K40Y9 as a bypass cap in several places on the K73-16 and K71-4. While I was not sure if this experiment would yield the desired results I tried it anyway. I had the K40 in my system for several weeks but in the end I decided not to use it. While it certainly has a very musical character actually using it seems to be difficult as there are a few tradeoffs with this cap. Mainly it just does it works really well for basically any kind of instrumental music but with most modern music it does not provide you with a sense of control. Also problematic is that somehow it just does not seem to mix well with other capacitors. Using these as a bypass has just not worked well. The sound signature of system always seems off balance when I use them.


----------



## jazzwave

I nubie in DIY...what I did just tube, caps rolling.

I saw lot of people do bypass capacitor, what is the purpose?

Correct me please, by pass mean put other capacitor paralel with existing caps?
What is the rule of value of bypass caps? let's say existing caps is 0.22uf/600 , what bypass caps value for that caps?

thanks


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi Jazzwave, bypassing is a bit of a controversial subject. There are many people who prefer not to do it at all. There are also many people who use 100th of the value of the cap they are bypassing to parallel as a rule of thumb. This has worked quite well for me on some occasions. However, in the end it is all down to experimentation. While the value of the caps is one thing some caps just don't like to mix. This is what is so great about these NOS Russian caps for me. They are really cheap and really good so you can buy them and experiment.


----------



## lehmanhill

Hi Jasper,
  
 I'm glad to hear that you are having fun trying caps and especially with the Russians.  I am particularly glad to hear your thoughts on the MBM caps.  I had bought some small ones a while ago, but haven't gotten around to trying them yet.  From your experience, it sounds like they may be a nice flavor to add to certain recipes.
  
 I share your enjoyment of the K71-4 and use them in my crossover today.
  
 Enjoy.


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi Lehmanhill, it was reading your post which sparked my interest in the K71-4. As I mentioned I have the 10uf K71-4 paralleled a 0.1uf K72P-6 and a 1uf MBM. I think the MBM mix with the them, while the MBMs add a bit of body they are also quite transparent which is very important when you are dealing with caps like the K17-4. Further, adding these to the mix did not mess up the soundsgate which was improved by the K72P-6.
  
 I have had this combination in my amp for a few days now but I think I a slightly smaller MBM cap might be better. I just finished some more testing with and without the MBM tonight. Without the MBM the combination f K71-4 and K72 has deeper and punchier bass but the bass also sounds a bit more forced, boxy, and less natural. There is also less bass in quantity overall signature is more forward with a more attack and airy highs. Upper mids are emhasised voices and guitars really stand out. I also think the sound is slightly more detached from the speakers but this could be due to the forward signature.
  
 With the MBM caps the sound becomes more focused on the midrange instead of upper mids and highs. Overall the sound is more balanced. The sound is less punchy but much more natural and organic with transients being more drawn out. I think a smaller MBM cap might retain just a bit more airiness and make the sound just a tad punchier and more detached from the speakers.
  
 Today I asked an ebay seller to make me a selection of MBM caps of different values. When these arrive I will play around with them a bit to see what ratio is best.
  
 Also, I have seen these in widely different voltage ratings from 160 up to 1500. I wonder what the sonic differences are.


----------



## coinmaster

Hi. I have a question about mundorf s/g/o caps.
 I have a LD MKVI+ amp and I want to upgrade the caps to Mundorf s/g/o .
 Someone I know used .64uf caps and said they made the amp sound like a whole new amp.
 I found a good deal on 1uf caps and I'm wondering if I risk anything by going up to 1uf.
 I would assume there is a size that is considered "too big" and since my friend found nirvana in the .64uf caps I might be risking bad synergy by getting something bigger.
 Any thoughts?


----------



## jazzwave

coinmaster said:


> Hi. I have a question about mundorf s/g/o caps.
> 
> 
> I have a LD MKVI+ amp and I want to upgrade the caps to Mundorf s/g/o .
> ...



 


To avoid risk, I always rolling caps with same value. Caps can be Film Capacitors and Oil Capacitors , Teflon etc.
I tried Jensen PIO and Mundorf SGO on my SET 300B amp, I prefer SGO..


----------



## Jasper9395

*OK time for an update on the MBM paper in wax capacitors *
  
 The MBM capacitors sound very warm, full bodied, and have a slightly rolled off though extended top end. They really bring out the bass and lower mids while providing a lot of texture. Another positive trait of this capacitor is that it does not effect soundstage negatively, this is an area where it in on par with the teflon caps. While the MBM is very transparent, it does not quite exhibit the same level of transparency as the teflon K72P-6, FCH or the polystyrene K71-4. The character of the bass is different to that of the teflon capacitors which have a tighter, more controlled bass, sound a bit drier and provide less bass quantity. Overall the character of this capacitor actually reminds me of the Mundorf Supreme although the Mundorf is far less transparent.
  
 In terms of price these are inexpensive, I bought a bag with about 30 MBM caps of different values for 4.75 USD. Another positive is that these caps are relatively compact. This is especially true for the 160v version. The 750v MBM capacitors are quite a bit larger. I have experimented a little with the 160v and 750v versions, keeping the capacitance the same, the 750v version is more transparent bringing it close to the level found in teflon caps.  
  
 These capacitors mix quite well with teflon caps as well as the K71-4 capacitor as they add a bit of warmth and body while taming the highs. In my pre-amp I have experimented with a mixture of MBM and FCH capacitors which worked quite well. I currently have the MBM in use as a bypass on the K71-4 input capacitor of my power amp. I decided to only keep the bypass on the K71-4 as using them in both places resulted in too much warmth and a slightly wooly sound. Overall I think this is a very nice cap which is worth experimenting with especially if your system sounds bright or cold.
  
 In terms of bypassing I am using a 0.25 750v MBM capacitor and a 0.1 uf K72P-6 to bypass a 10uf K71-4 this is working quite well. Before I was using a 1uf MBM which in my system was too large a value.
  
 These are the 750v and 160v versions of the 0.25uf MBM capacitor


----------



## lehmanhill

Nice report.  I have got to make some time to play with them.
  
 One thought since they are a bit stronger at the bottom than the top.  It might be fun to cut away the outer aluminum can as Jon and others have done with other caps.  Since it is a paper in wax cap, I expect it will be dry inside.  You could just wrap it with several layers of kraft paper for insulation, candle wax seal the ends, and see what happens.  Others write that removing the metal often opens up the high end of a cap.
  
 Once again, have fun.
  
 Jac


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi Jac,
  
 Thanks for the encouragement, I had already done some potting but in the past couple of days I did some more. You were right about the MBM caps being dry inside. Today I read on a ebay sellers page that the MBM caps are waxed paper and aluminium foil which seems to be correct.
  
 Here is a picture of one of the 750v MBM caps which I opened.

  
 So far I have removed the metal sleeve and encased two K73-16 caps (crossover), and four FCH caps (pre-amp) in candle wax. I also removed the metal sleeve from two MBM (input cap bypass) caps and wrapped these in baking paper. I am using these inside my amp as I am afraid wax could melt inside. My impression from these three modifications is that it gets rid of unwanted distortion while not changing the basic character of the capacitors. The result is that the background becomes darker while transients are revealed. By transients I mean the decaying frequencies associated with a particular sound. These become more audible which makes everything sound more realistic/natural.
  
 My impression was also that the caps don't need to burn in again after having wax applied. Rather I think it takes a little time to get used to the new sound.
  
 I was wondering what the advantage of using bees wax is? Also, can anyone recommend materials to pot capacitors in which have higher melting points?
  
 I might order some FT3 capacitors to compare to the FCH. It would be interesting to compare them to a better known teflon cap.


----------



## lehmanhill

I can suggest one idea for a high temp potting material, but I haven't tried it on a capacitor, so I don't know the sonic effects, if any.
  
 Devcon 2 Ton Epoxy (Devcon 35345) is an epoxy that is available at local home and hardware centers here in the US.  I'm not sure if it is available in the Netherlands, but hopefully there is something similar available.  The advantage of using this for potting is that it doesn't shrink when it dries and doesn't get too hot when curing.  I have used it for electronic circuit boards that need moisture or vibration protection, but it has a service temperature up to about 93 degree C, so it should be good inside an amp.  Epoxy has a higher dielectric constant than, say teflon, which might suggest more distortion, but then, many capacitors are dipped in epoxy, so I'm not sure what to think.
  
 What would be ideal would be to find a low temperature curing polymer with low shrinkage and a very low dielectric constant.  Perhaps potting the cap in a housing in wax with just a cap of epoxy to seal the wax in place.
  
 Jac


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi Jac,
  
 Turns out we do have Devcon 2 Ton Epoxy here. It's not cheap though, almost 15 euros for an amount that covers just 15 square cm. Your idea of encasing the wax in it is interesting though. I was thinking another option could be to encase the wax in varnish. Varnish is sometimes used to pot or vacuum impregnate transformers although it is also possible to use epoxies. I am not knowledgeable at all about what materials would be best suited though.
  
 BTW I also read that the operating temperature of the MBM caps only goes up to 70 degrees celsius so I am guessing the caps would basically melt if heated to a temperature higher than this.
  
 Best,
 Jasper


----------



## Nada

jasper9395 said:


> ........ I was thinking another option could be to encase the wax in varnish. Varnish is sometimes used to pot or vacuum impregnate transformers although it is also possible to use epoxies. I am not knowledgeable at all about what materials would be best suited though.
> BTW I also read that the operating temperature of the MBM caps only goes up to 70 degrees Celsius so I am guessing the caps would basically melt if heated to a temperature higher than this....


 
  
 That's a  good thought about the wax melting in the caps. Even before actually melting wax could soften and creep which is highly likely to change the cap ratings in a negative way.
  
 The usual aluminium shell would serve to both dissipate internal heat build up and prevent creep at warm temperatures.
  
 Replacing the aluminium with a heat insulator like resin or wax  might not be a good idea.
  
 If you want to be extreme and take off the aluminium housing Id suggest replacing it with some box aluminium like
  


 with the cap tied in the centre allowing air all around. This allows a very low dielectric using air  which is still able to convect heat out.
  
 I wonder if its worth going to so much effort?
  
 How much does the sound improve with the casing stripped off?


----------



## Jasper9395

nada said:


> I wonder if its worth going to so much effort?
> 
> How much does the sound improve with the casing stripped off?


 
  
Hi Nada, interesting post and good questions. First your suggestion of using an aluminium box housing might well be worth a try. You could just use a piece of pipe for this purpose which would not be too expensive. For me at least part of the appeal of these Russian caps is their excellent cost/performance ratio.
  
Now the question of how much improvement can be attained by stripping the aluminium housing from the caps is a good one. Of course this is something which is difficult to quantify but I do think it is definitely worth the effort. If we look at the grading scheme used on the humblehomemadehifi site I would say there is between 0.5 and 1 point of improvement. Some caps are more affected than others. In my experience the K73-16 was more effected then the FCH and then the MBM caps. My theory is that the dielectric material used is important here. In the MBM caps wax is used which already kills resonance, the K73-16 on the other hand uses a type of plasticky foil.


----------



## Jasper9395

*Paper in Oil cap comparison*
  
 In the last couple of weeks I have been experimenting with some different paper in oil capacitors. I have tried the K40y, MBGO-2, and MBGCH-1. These caps are very interesting as they can be as transparent and open as teflon caps yet much more fleshy, and lush. I will focus on the latter two caps as the K40 has been commented on many times before. I used these caps on the inputs and outputs of my pre amp where they are directly in the signal path.
  
 Here is my impression of the MBGO-2. The fist thing you will notice about the MBGO-2 is how incredibly spacious it is. This cap really brings the music into the room, the music is not even between the speakers, with this cap it is literally in the room. This cap has a lot of air; the top end is open, smooth, and detailed there is a lot of spacial information. Interestingly, it is able to pull this off without sounding bright or harsh. The overall presentation is laid back especially compared to the teflon caps which have much more attack. In terms of transparency it is on par with the teflon caps I have tried yet it is also incredibly lush and fleshy. It really adds a lot of body and timbre to the sound, it is certainly a cap of which you will notice the presence. The midrange of this cap is very nice, it is insightful and detailed yet never analytical. I would judge the frequency response as being slightly midrange focused. Dynamics are also good. To me the only area in which this cap is lacking is the bass. It just does not have the same level of control in the lower octaves which the teflon caps exhibit. This leads to bass sounding a bit confused and muddled at times and the a lack of punchiness. One way in which to describe this cap is that when listening to Nina Simone it is great but with Daft Punk there is something missing.
 Now a quick comparison between the K40 and MBGO. While K40Y is very musical and has a lot of "pop and jest" I prefer the MBGO. While the K40 has many positive attributes to my ears the it has a few big problems. First, it sounds closed. I have used it in several applications but it always makes the sound more localised to the speakers. Second, the bass of this cap is very wooly, it sounds uncontrolled and does not have enough presence. Last, whenever I have used the K40s I always hear a slight unnatural emphasis on the 'S' 'T' when listening to voices and cymbals. This is something I have eliminated from my system and when a cap re-introduces it, it does not make me happy.
  
 Now the MBGCH-1, these are not well known and were just 4.5 USD for four matched 0.25uf caps. I used these in the same place as the MBGO caps and they sound very similar. However, to my delight the MBGCH-1 caps are even better than the MBGO caps. They do everything the MBGO does right but sound a tad smoother and bit more detailed while improving upon the already excellent soundstage of the MBGO. With the MBGCH-1 the speakers almost disappear. Most importantly however, the bass of these caps is much better. The lows sound much more organised, bass is tighter, more controlled and decays much faster. This results in more punchiness and impact. Last, and also on a positive note, the MBGCH reaches a bit lower then the MBGO. However, while the MBGCH is more punchy I would still characterise it as relatively laid back sounding in it's presentation. Interestingly, when listening to the MBGCH-1 I was reminded of the sound of the Denon D2000s I used to own. In terms of frequency response this cap puts slightly more emphasis on the lower end than the MBGO but it is still fairly neutral with slight midrange focus.
  
 For now I am keeping the MBGCH-1 caps in my pre. They provide me with a nice balance of attributes which my system needs right now. They add lot more soundstage, more body and fleshiness while also being punchy enough. Further, they are also smooth and transparent enough not to mess anything up. All this swapping of caps and searching on eBay shows what a bit of experimentation can do. Changing a few caps here and there can make a huge difference but ultimately the trick is to find components which create synergy.


----------



## JamieMcC

jasper9395 said:


> *Paper in Oil cap comparison*
> 
> In the last couple of weeks I have been experimenting with some different paper in oil capacitors. I have tried the K40y, MBGO-2, and MBGCH-1. These caps are very interesting as they can be as transparent and open as teflon caps yet much more fleshy, and lush. I will focus on the latter two caps as the K40 has been commented on many times before. I used these caps on the inputs and outputs of my pre amp where they are directly in the signal path.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice I haven't yet tried the MBGCH-1 caps but I have tried the MBGO with a teflon bypass for output caps and they have seen off quiet a few more modern and significantly more expensive caps  I feel that you have nailed describing their sonic signature.


----------



## Jasper9395

jamiemcc said:


> Nice I haven't yet tried the MBGCH-1 caps but I have tried the MBGO with a teflon bypass for output caps and they have seen off quiet a few more modern and significantly more expensive caps  I feel that you have nailed describing their sonic signature.


 
  
 Thanks for the compliment Jamie. The MBGCH-1 are definitely worth a try especially considering the price! It looks like your using K72-6 caps to bypass those MBGOs. What sort of ratio are you using to bypass and how does this improve things?


----------



## JamieMcC

90uf MGBO (3X30) bypassed with 0.056uF K72-6 no particular ratio I just used what I had to hand.
 I thought there was a increase in depth of tone across the board and a slight increase in resolution. The most noticeable difference was to the top end more which was smoother and more refined with out any extra brightness and virtually no trace of the sibilance I had been previously experiencing with my Beyerdynamic T1 on some tracks.


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## Jasper9395

Interesting, I might have to order a few smaller value teflon caps then to bypass those 0.25uf caps in the pre.


----------



## FrankCooter

I recently built a simple 2 stage balanced OTL amp for the HD800. The amp is a 112a DHT voltage amplifier  directly connected to a paralleled 6BX7 cathode follower. Output impedance is about 100 ohms, which is fine for the 300 ohm HD800's. The output capacitor is currently a generic 70uf motor-run PIO.  For what it is, the amp sounds surprisingly good.  I'm interested in upgrading the output caps. Would like to keep the cost around $300.00. So I'm looking for a quad of film or PIO caps in the  50+ uf / 250V range. Any suggestions  from you cap guys?. Currently I'm considering Mundorf  M "tube caps" Obbligato film power supply caps, and perhaps the Obbligato gold signal caps. Also looking at some of the Russian military surplus stuff. Since the amp is DIY, space isn't an issue.  Any practical alternatives I've missed ?


----------



## JamieMcC

frankcooter said:


> I recently built a simple 2 stage balanced OTL amp for the HD800. The amp is a 112a DHT voltage amplifier  directly connected to a paralleled 6BX7 cathode follower. Output impedance is about 100 ohms, which is fine for the 300 ohm HD800's. The output capacitor is currently a generic 70uf motor-run PIO.  For what it is, the amp sounds surprisingly good.  I'm interested in upgrading the output caps. Would like to keep the cost around $300.00. So I'm looking for a quad of film or PIO caps in the  50+ uf / 250V range. Any suggestions  from you cap guys?. Currently I'm considering Mundorf  M "tube caps" Obbligato film power supply caps, and perhaps the Obbligato gold signal caps. Also looking at some of the Russian military surplus stuff. Since the amp is DIY, space isn't an issue.  Any practical alternatives I've missed ?


 

 If you can run 160v have a think about trying the MBGO 30uf and Teflon bypass off of ebay they will most probably only set you back around $20ish for both channels. Personally I preferred then to a number of poly caps even some Mundorf Mcaps I tried.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30uF-160V-MBGO-2-Russian-Military-Paper-PIO-Capacitors-for-Audio-10pcs-/371240885814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566fae5e36


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## Jasper9395

frankcooter said:


> Currently I'm considering Mundorf  M "tube caps" Obbligato film power supply caps, and perhaps the Obbligato gold signal caps. Also looking at some of the Russian military surplus stuff. Since the amp is DIY, space isn't an issue.  Any practical alternatives I've missed ?


 
  
 I cant think of any modern PIO caps that would satisfy your 50+ uf / 250V range. Are you sure you need 250v? There might be some Western Electric caps out there that do though. In any case I would go with NOS caps. There is actually a good chance that the motor runs you have in your amp now will out preform the caps your wanting to replace them with.
  
 Although, like you, I am a bit of a skeptical empiricist I do think a grading scheme for caps is useful. Take a look at this extensive comparison of caps for example. Here the mundorf supreme scores a 10. From experience I can tell you that caps like the MBGO or MBGCH-1 will far out preform it. I mean leave it in the dust, really a cap like the mundorf supreme does not even interest me anymore. Objectively speaking MBGOs or MBGCH-1s are just more transparent, detailed, have better soundsgate, and are smoother Et cetera. I would love to compare some NOS caps to some top of the line modern caps some time like Jupiter or Duelund but they are just prohibitively expensive.
  
 If you have 300 dollars to spend I would encourage experimentation. With that amount of money you can just go and buy some different NOS caps off eBay and experiment. Ultimately it is about finding the best combination of caps. If you do decide to go that route be sure to report back to us 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## FrankCooter

Thanks for the advice! You guys pretty much confirmed my suspicions about expensive boutique caps and saved me a nice chunk of change in the process.
  
 I went ahead and ordered 10 of the Russian MBGO's. I will bypass them with the standard Russian military teflons. I can live with the 160V rating.
  
 I'll post my impressions as soon as they arrive.
  
 Any other cap suggestions or ideas about cathode followers in general are welcome.


----------



## mcandmar

K42-11: I picked these up out of curiosity as i cant find much info about them.   At first glance they looked like PETP K73's with a silver body and green center but they are actually a metal case, and apparently a metalized paper in oil construction.
  
 I used them to replace a pair of ClarityCap ESA's and i have to say i am very surprised by them.  They have slightly less low end vs the ClarityCaps but they sound clearer and more transparent to me which is kind of ironic.  Either way not a bad cap for $2.85 each, only limitation is the 125v rating.


----------



## Jasper9395

Mcandmar, this looks like an interesting cap. They seem to be relatively compact which can be a good thing. I might have to buy a few of these to see how they sound.
  
 The green centre and metal case is something a bunch of different Russian caps seem to share. The K71s also use it. The green stuff in the middle is an end cap which isolates the insides of the cap from the metal body and the outside.
  
 Here is some info I dug up an ebay seller.
  
 "These are similar to K42y2 with a bit better Tangent of angle of losses. The size/capacitance ratio isn't that good but that's a good news if you are willing to sacrifice a little room for extra quality. Sonically the capacitors are roughly the same grade as K40Y9 or K75-10."


----------



## mcandmar

Interesting, though i find them very different to the K75-10's. I found those to be very dark and lacking in the low end and high end. They are great if you just want midrange as they have a unique sound to them.  I used them for a while in a preamp, even tried bypassing them with K72's which helped the high end, but ultimately the lack of low end response is why i removed them.
  
 I haven't tried the K40's in a signal path so cant comment on those.


----------



## Jasper9395

I think what the seller means is that the K75, K40 and K42 are of the same quality in terms of transparency and so on. Don't think he is saying their sonic characteristics are similar.


----------



## Johan-71

Hi does anyone know if there is any sonical differenses between K75-10 and K75-24 or is it only the voltage rating that's different? 

Johan


----------



## Jasper9395

Take a look at this video the third designation refers to "the index number of the exact design type". Looks like they are just a slightly different variation of the same cap. It is probably just the voltage rating, caps with higher voltage ratings usually do sound a bit better.
  
 While we are on the subject of Russian cap designation system I found the below classification. You can look up the original here it was linked on another site. Not sure where I found it originally.


----------



## Johan-71

Thanks for the link, I've heard the same about higher voltage rating. I'm using a K75-10 as decoupling now and waiting for K75-24 to try out. Just have to wait and listen for my self. Using a Audyn true copper as coupling cap with good results. It's very transparent in that position and at the same time I got some more body with The K75.
It's almost as addictive as tuberolling this "capsoldering",sometimes even better cause the nuances are bigger. 

Johan


----------



## Jasper9395

Don't have much experience with tube rolling but yes, with caps you can really tune your system. It's good you have some modern caps for reference, it will be interesting to see how the Audyn True Copper caps stack up as they are highly regarded. What values are you working with? I might have some suggestions for caps to experiment with if your interested... In terms of transparency the MBGO-2, and MBGCH-1 caps which are also PIO should be better then the K75.
  
 I like the term "capsoldering" BTW


----------



## Johan-71

I will pass by my post-office later today to pickup 2 pairs of MBGCH-1 0,22 uF that I bought from fleabay.
I must say that I appreciate the time we are living in, I layed in my bed a couple of days ago and read this thread in my phone. 5 min later I had ordered and payed for four caps from Romania, just like that. Today I got a text message in my phone and all I have to do is pick up my package. 
Depending on the little wife I might head down to the mancave and do some capsoldering tonight. 
I'm trying to get the lady into this but the interest is rather low...


----------



## Jon L

johan-71 said:


> I'm trying to get the lady into this but the interest is rather low...


----------



## richie037

Most of you worries to much about caps, while they still have the standard ****ty audio input connectors... the one sealed in plastic and measure the emi around iside cables, effecting a lot... search for perfect matched couples and same value resistors. And remove the carbon potentiometers. , cheap or expensive, they all suck. Wire them yourself and the brands.... enough oem-film caps around, just like elco's. And if you use a lot of streaming, wireless gear, why even bother.
gr richard


----------



## lehmanhill

jasper9395 said:


> I cant think of any modern PIO caps that would satisfy your 50+ uf / 250V range. Are you sure you need 250v? There might be some Western Electric caps out there that do though. In any case I would go with NOS caps. There is actually a good chance that the motor runs you have in your amp now will out preform the caps your wanting to replace them with.
> 
> Although, like you, I am a bit of a skeptical empiricist I do think a grading scheme for caps is useful. Take a look at this extensive comparison of caps for example. Here the mundorf supreme scores a 10. From experience I can tell you that caps like the MBGO or MBGH-1 will far out preform it. I mean leave it in the dust, really a cap like the mundorf supreme does not even interest me anymore. Objectively speaking MBGOs or MBGH-1s are just more transparent, detailed, have better soundsgate, and are smoother Et cetera. I would love to compare some NOS caps to some top of the line modern caps some time like Jupiter or Duelund but they are just prohibitively expensive.
> 
> ...


 

 Jasper,
  
 This post is not intended to contradict your evaluation, but just to note that every system is different and will respond differently to different caps.
  
 I read with interest your evaluation of the MBGO and MBGCH-1.  I remembered that I had a pair of MBGO on hand that I had never gotten around to trying.  So I decided to try them in a little coupling cap comparison with Mundorf Supreme, Jantzen Superior Z, and Audyn Plus caps (all caps that were sitting in my spares box and of the same 1 uF value).
  
 Overall, my feeling of the character of the MBGOs is very similar to yours.  Soundstage is quite good and so is detail and transparency.  They are a bit weak in bass, as you describe.  The difference for me comes in the mid-range.  In my system, the MBGOs are too strong in mids, a little like you turned down the bass and treble controls.  The result is that the MBGOs seem a bit thin and shouting which is tiresome for longer listening sessions.  In that way, the Jantzen and Audyn Plus have a bit of the same issue to a lesser degree.  In contrast, the Mundorf is a bit laid back and seems very neutral in this system.
  
 I'm sure the differences I am hearing are differences between my system and yours.  That is to be expected.  As others have said, audio is like cooking.  You need to combine the right flavors for that particular dish to get good taste.  Each dish is a unique combination and there is no right answer.  I hope you keep trying things and sharing the results.
  
 In the meantime, I will still order some MBGCH-1s, just to see how their flavor combines in my dish.
  
 Jac


----------



## mcandmar

From what i have read the H designation seems to be for variable frequency operation, where as the regular caps are indented for fixed frequencies.  My take on that is the regulars are more suited for filtering 50 or 60hz ripple in power supply duty, where as the -H versions are most suited to decoupling a wider range of frequencies, i.e. used in radio equipment etc.
  
 That could also be utter b#@@#ks as nobody really knows


----------



## Jasper9395

lehmanhill said:


> Jasper,
> 
> This post is not intended to contradict your evaluation, but just to note that every system is different and will respond differently to different caps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Jac,
  
 Your findings are quite interesting, it may well be that the MBGOs are more mid range focused than I had thought. I have been working on my system a lot resulting in constant changes to it's sound signature so it can be difficult to judge the frequency balance of the caps. I do find it surprising that you get more treble with the Mundorf Supremes though. I found these caps had quite some roll-off in the treble whereas the MBGOs were more extended. Which MBGO caps were you working with? I used the MBGO-2 but I have also seen MBGO-1 and MBGO-3 caps, perhaps there have a different signature.
  
 Unfortunately more cap impressions form me will have to wait for a while as I am moving countries atm. Anyway, hope to hear about your impression of the MBGCH-1 soon.


mcandmar said:


> From what i have read the H designation seems to be for variable frequency operation, where as the regular caps are indented for fixed frequencies.  My take on that is the regulars are more suited for filtering 50 or 60hz ripple in power supply duty, where as the -H versions are most suited to decoupling a wider range of frequencies, i.e. used in radio equipment etc.
> 
> That could also be utter b#@@#ks as nobody really knows


 
  
 I've also heard about the MBGO caps being used in power supplies. I've not tried it myself though. I think the caps with only letter designations are part of an older classification system though. At least that is what I understood from the video I liked before.


----------



## lehmanhill

jasper9395 said:


> Hi Jac,
> 
> Your findings are quite interesting, it may well be that the MBGOs are more mid range focused than I had thought. I have been working on my system a lot resulting in constant changes to it's sound signature so it can be difficult to judge the frequency balance of the caps. I do find it surprising that you get more treble with the Mundorf Supremes though. I found these caps had quite some roll-off in the treble whereas the MBGOs were more extended. Which MBGO caps were you working with? I used the MBGO-2 but I have also seen MBGO-1 and MBGO-3 caps, perhaps there have a different signature.


 
  
 My mistake.  Sorry.  I had remembered those as MBGO, but looking at enough pictures to sort out the Russian lettering, it turns out that they are OKBG-MH.  From what I understand, they are similar, but obviously can and do sound different than the MBGO-2.  Not sure what they were designed for, but not my favorite for audio, at least in my system. 
  
 That makes me even more interested in trying the -CH caps you tried.
  
 Sorry again for not being more careful.
  
 Jac


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi Jac,
  
 No need to be apologetic. At least this clears things up.


----------



## Johan-71

Day 2 with Audyn true copper cap 0.22 uF as coupling cap and 0.33 uF as decoupling to my KT88 push pull class A amp.
I can't stop listening, missed my youngest sons football match last night (sorry son but daddy had to work late). A huge step up from the Ruskie Pio I've been trying .
I suddenly got a twice as big living room and at least 8 feet more to the sealing . Have to double check that the suroundspeakers not connected .
Am I biased? H@ll yes.
Happy? My wife asked me what I've been smoking...
Ok,let's put it this way I've got 3 different quads of Kt88 and 4 different 12SL7 pairs and the biggest and probably the cheapest upgrade I've done is to change the caps .
At the moment I have 10-12 hours on them and I'm satisfied , no itching to go down to the cave and the solderstation.
Just enjoy hours of god music.

Johan


----------



## jazzwave

I rolled 0.22uF caps in my 300B SE amp,listen trough speaker not cans.
  
 Starting from  Siemens ->Russian PIO->Mundorf Supreme->Mundorf SG0->Jensen Coper Foil paper case->Vcap CuTF-> back again to Mundorf SG0 (installed for almost 1 year).
 In my system all caps above delivered different sound signature.Jensen Coper Foil paper case and Vcap CuTF has transparent, but in my amp the Jensen made the sound laid back to much.
  
 I love what Mundorf SGO did,musical ,enjoyable, delivered good bass mid, treble.....with this cap I enjoy listen the music not monitoring sound of every instrument or vocal.
 I didn't care of instruments (guitar, piano etc) sound accurate or not.... I become "normal" person who can enjoy the music not check the sound...
  
  
 ~ron~
  
 note:
_Duelund Cast Cu Copper, arrived.._


----------



## NightFlight

tenorsaxophone said:


> Hi,
> in your DIY capacitor burn-in setup, what resistor value do you use?
> And what signal type do you use? Perhaps white noise signal?
> Many thanks. Best regards.
> Davide.


 
  
 +1
  
 Looking for same info. I've got some Mundorf EVO SGO I want to put some time on and some speaker taps waiting.  I have a 270ohm 5watt cement available. I guess throw on 60hz and watch the voltage drop across the resistor?


----------



## lehmanhill

*RIKE S-CAP* Caution
  
 I reviewed and recommended the Rike S-Cap earlier in this thread.  I can't disclose the source, but there is a possibility that later builds of the S-Cap don't sound the same as the early build parts I reviewed.  I don't want to condemn Rike, after all, it could be an issue with an individual cap, but since I recommended them on this forum, I thought I should suggest caution in future purchases of the S-Cap.


----------



## JamesBr

lehmanhill said:


> *RIKE S-CAP* Caution
> 
> I reviewed and recommended the Rike S-Cap earlier in this thread.  I can't disclose the source, but there is a possibility that later builds of the S-Cap don't sound the same as the early build parts I reviewed.  I don't want to condemn Rike, after all, it could be an issue with an individual cap, but since I recommended them on this forum, I thought I should suggest caution in future purchases of the S-Cap.


 
 Good point! Humble!


----------



## samoloko

how would you rate different MBGO, MBGO 2, MBGCH etc


----------



## Jasper9395

samoloko said:


> how would you rate different MBGO, MBGO 2, MBGCH etc


 

 The names of the caps are written on the sides in Russian lettering. Just search for them on ebay and you will see the difference.


----------



## samoloko

Jasper
 thank you for reply
 I already used MBGO 2 as a power decoupling cap and find them as very liquid and bloomy bass sounding
 I try to find the most neutral from MBGO types
 which type and ratio of bypass do you recommend with MBGO


----------



## samoloko

I did some search about old PIO from Rusia
 from various reviewers reports looks like KBG-MN Is best Rusia PIO


----------



## lehmanhill

A New Industrial, mid-price Cap.  Cornell Dubilier 942C
  

  
 A little while ago, I stopped by Tony Gee's Capacitor Reviews and found he recommended a new cap, the CDE 940C.  Since I was going to place an order for parts anyway, I looked for and found them at Mouser.  While researching Tony's 940C, I also found the 942C.
  
 The 942C is an interesting construction.  It is a combination of metalized Polypropylene and film/foil Polypropylene.  So I decided to order both the 940C and the 942C at 1 uF as coupling caps.  Tony as already given a very good review of the 940C, so I will just say that I found similar results, the 940C is a very neutral cap for a good price.
  
 One thing that I appreciate in a cap are those caps that bring out the dynamics in the music.  Some of the Mundorf Supreme line do that very nicely.  The Rike S-Caps I have seem to do that as well.  I'm sure there are other premium caps that are great at this, but a Supreme Silver Oil and a True Copper are as premium as I have experienced.
  
 The 942C was a pleasant surprise in the dynamics department.  It has a nice frequency balance, fairly neutral across the range with perhaps a touch of emphasis in the treble range.  There is good bass, a solid mid-range that is neither warm nor cool, nice detail, and a good sound stage.  But it also has a nice sense of dynamics and that makes it attractive to me, especially at this price point.
  
 I put it in the photo with the Mundorf Supreme because I think it has a character that is quite a bit like the Supreme, but at about half the price.  Of course, neither of these caps is a world beater, but they are very good mid-range caps.  I also showed both in the photo to show the size of the 942C.  It's huge!
  
 Crossover
  
 Based on my listening results as a coupling cap, I decided to include the 942C in a tweeter crossover project.  For a total value of 10 uF, I used two 940C at 4.7 uF each and a 0.68 uF 942C in a tweeter crossover.  This worked as I had hoped and gave me a clear tweeter sound and nice dynamics.
  
 After completing the speakers, I went back and listened to several coupling caps on the amplifier.  That brought me a bit of a surprise.  When using the 942C as coupling cap and crossover cap, the result was a strained tweeter response.  It's true that this particular tweeter also has a peak from 7 to 10kHz, so it may be that the caps, combined with the tweeter peak, were too strong.  That said, other coupling caps were fine, so it proves again that you can have too much of a good thing.
  
 Overall, I find the 942C to be an excellent value and an excellent choice for many projects.  As always, systems vary and you have to be careful how you mix together different components, but I recommend giving the 942C a try.


----------



## Jasper9395

Audyn True Copper and FT-3

 The True Copper and FT-3 are both caps which have ended up in my pre-amp. FT-3 on the inputs and True Copper on the outputs. While I had been working with NOS caps quite a bit I had not had a chance to compare these to high-end modern caps. Luckily then I came across four 2nd hand True Copper caps con eBay and snapped them up. So what are these caps like compared to NOS caps I had been working with?

 Well my impressions of the True Copper caps are very positive! As mentioned they have a nice full bodied sound while still being detailed and open. Also on a positive note the bass of this cap is very nice in quality and quantity. This combination of characteristics makes this cap sound very coherent and confident. Further, it is also rather snappy which makes them very musical.

 The FT-3 as we all know is one of the best NOS caps you can buy. At 6 USD for a 0.47uf cap it is a lot more expensive than most NOS caps yet still very cheap compared to the True Copper. I did find that it deserves it’s reputation. The strong points of this caps are it’s dynamics, its wide soundstage, frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum, detail, and smoothness. While this is a very good cap one may interpret it as lacking some personality as it does not colour or alter the sound in any way.

 Overall, when compared to many of the NOS caps I think it is very noticeable that the True Copper is really designed for audio. By that I mean that it sounds very good by itself while one would have to put more effort into mixing and matching when it comes to NOS caps to get the sound just right. In the end however, I only ended up using two of the four True Copper caps I bought in my pre-amp. I found that using them in combination with the FT-3 increased frequency extension while also tightening up the bass, improving dynamics the sound stage and detail. 

 For me the conclusion is that the best NOS caps do compete with high end modern caps. Ultimately though the best results are obtained by using the right combination of components.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 I am looking to buy a pair of capacitors for my Focal Utopia Beryllium tweeters, what is out there for me? These tweeters are detailed and sound bright and lively, this is how I like my music. I read a bit about Obbligato but reviewers said they are less airy and lack detail, I found them at 23euro per cap price but now I have given up on them. 
  
 I never thought a piece of capacitor used in series to a tweeter could really change the sound until recently on a forum, therefore I am willing to finally spend some money on a pair. Currently I am using a 5 cent capacitor of 22uF 25V, what should I get in this rating.
  
 I really appreciate your support and it's a great thread for going crazy after capacitors. I am also trying to get rid of my tube buying addiction as well in this way.
  
 Thanks!
  
 Edit: Someone suggested me DueLund capacitors but they are huge, I cannot fit them in my small tweeter enclosure. Check out the link, the thing is beautiful.


----------



## jazzwave

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am looking to buy a pair of capacitors for my Focal Utopia Beryllium tweeters, what is out there for me? These tweeters are detailed and sound bright and lively, this is how I like my music. I read a bit about Obbligato but reviewers said they are less airy and lack detail, I found them at 23euro per cap price but now I have given up on them.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Some people happy with Duelund and Mundorf for speaker
  
 Check this, 
 http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm
  
 Check also Jeff' s page, he is Duelund fans for speaker
 http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=6254
  
  
 I never rolling caps for my Spendor , but tried some caps for my 300B tube amp (Jensen, Mundorf and now installed Duelund Cast Cu-copper)


----------



## FunkyMonkey909

Having read this thread I decided to bite the bullet and replace coupling caps in my tube amp for a set of Jupiter Copper Foil caps. I'm about 60hrs in and so far the results are mixed. The sound is definitely more organic, and I hear more hidden details. At the same the bass seems to be softer, the tonal balance is warmer and the sound got colored (sort of like a golden hue to the sound). So far, a mixed blessing. I sure hope things improve during burn in.


----------



## MothAudio

Replacing the LCR 'lytic 100uf+100uf 500vdu ps capacitor with a pair of either the *Mundorf M-TubeCap* 100uf 550vdu polypropylene film ps cap or the *ClarityCap TC *series 110uf 450vdu polypropylene film cap in my Moth Audio s45. Any preference either way? TIA.


----------



## Jon L

jasper9395 said:


> Audyn True Copper and FT-3
> 
> Well my impressions of the True Copper caps are very positive! As mentioned they have a nice full bodied sound while still being detailed and open. Also on a positive note the bass of this cap is very nice in quality and quantity. This combination of characteristics makes this cap sound very coherent and confident. Further, it is also rather snappy which makes them very musical.
> 
> The FT-3 as we all know is one of the best NOS caps you can buy. At 6 USD for a 0.47uf cap it is a lot more expensive than most NOS caps yet still very cheap compared to the True Copper. I did find that it deserves it’s reputation. The strong points of this caps are it’s dynamics, its wide soundstage, frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum, detail, and smoothness.


 
  
  


funkymonkey909 said:


> Having read this thread I decided to bite the bullet and replace coupling caps in my tube amp for a set of Jupiter Copper Foil caps. I'm about 60hrs in and so far the results are mixed. The sound is definitely more organic, and I hear more hidden details. At the same the bass seems to be softer, the tonal balance is warmer and the sound got colored (sort of like a golden hue to the sound). So far, a mixed blessing. I sure hope things improve during burn in.


 
  
 These caps take a long time to burn in, so I would keep using and listening.  
 However, both of you guys should try bypassing your respective copper caps with FT-2 or FT-3 teflon caps around 1/10 or 1/20th uF value and see if you like the results (after burn-in).


----------



## Jasper9395

jon l said:


> These caps take a long time to burn in, so I would keep using and listening.
> However, both of you guys should try bypassing your respective copper caps with FT-2 or FT-3 teflon caps around 1/10 or 1/20th uF value and see if you like the results (after burn-in).


 
  
 Bypassing the copper caps with an FT-2 or FT-3 is an interesting suggestion. I have actually ended up bypassing my 0.47uf Audyn True Copper caps with some (very small 1000pf if I remember correctly) LCR polystyrene capacitors. This opens up the high end and introduces a little more detail.
  
 I have not played with my system lately due to moving once again but I may have to place an order for some smaller FT caps to experiment with


----------



## JamieMcC

I recently finished up building a Bottlehead Eros Phono kit and could not resist the opportunity to make use of some good old Russian Teflon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 All the MKP RIAA capacitors were replaced with  FT-1 Teflons buying 10 of them measuring each and picking the best measuring of the bunch to use  (they measured better than the MKP's they replaced)
  
 The MKP output caps were replaced with FT-3 Teflons
  
 I also fitted four 47uf Valab capacitors (Taiwanese MKP in oils) which had been taking up space in the parts box for a while paralleling a pair up each side in place of the 100uf electrolytic used for the cathode bypass.
  
 I've reached about 150hr of burning in so far (feeding it tunes from a ipod) I came home today from work put on a  LP and noticed the change immediately the Teflons were starting to open up and sing its starting to sound very nice indeed.


----------



## Hauge

After reading the tread, and many thanks for all the marvellous inputs!!!, i have become interested in the MbM caps. Thus the question. Does anyone know where to buy 0.25uF MbM with a voltage of 500V ore more?
 I'd really like to try them in my Leak Stereo 20!
 And also to try them in my, soon to be rebuild, Dynaco Stereo 70, that i plan to mod with the VTA board...

 Best regards
 Tonni


----------



## Hauge

hauge said:


> After reading the tread, and many thanks for all the marvellous inputs!!!, i have become interested in the MbM caps. Thus the question. Does anyone know where to buy 0.25uF MbM with a voltage of 500V ore more?
> I'd really like to try them in my Leak Stereo 20!
> And also to try them in my, soon to be rebuild, Dynaco Stereo 70, that i plan to mod with the VTA board...
> 
> ...


 

 Well. Was lucku that another e*ay auction came up with some 0.25uF 750V MbM's. Now just awaiting the snailmail...


----------



## dmhenley

Hello! I'm about 35-40 hours in with the Clarity Cap CMR in the crossovers of my Tekton Lore. I'll be posting more lengthy impressions soon. These caps - replacing the stock Dayton Audio caps - have brought what I'd hoped for to my humble system.


----------



## FunkyMonkey909

funkymonkey909 said:


> Having read this thread I decided to bite the bullet and replace coupling caps in my tube amp for a set of Jupiter Copper Foil caps. I'm about 60hrs in and so far the results are mixed. The sound is definitely more organic, and I hear more hidden details. At the same the bass seems to be softer, the tonal balance is warmer and the sound got colored (sort of like a golden hue to the sound). So far, a mixed blessing. I sure hope things improve during burn in.


 
 After a 100 hrs or so the sound stabilized, and now am massively happy with the cap swap. The sound is much more extended, especially in th treble, yet has this beguiling musicality. The Jupiter caps offer a very good price/performance imho.


----------



## Hauge

hauge said:


> Well. Was lucku that another e*ay auction came up with some 0.25uF 750V MbM's. Now just awaiting the snailmail...


 

 After playing around with the MbM's, for a couple of hundred hours, i just lost patience. Don't blow your money on that s*it!
 They were a great step down from my old SCR's. And the Mundorfs that followed, was a revelation!


----------



## mcandmar

I tried the MBM as coupling caps and they did'nt last long either.  They have a sparkly sound which caught my interest initially, but they are somewhat flawed.
  
 Jupiters are my favorite caps of any brand, they just sound the most natural to me. The older square HT flat stack especially.


----------



## chiseran

Hello.
 Please tell me, how does the sound of REL-CAP TFT and audio Multicap RTX? Will make an important clarification: Multicap RTX 0.1uF*200V sounds brighter than Multicap RTX  0.1uf*400V. Multicap RTX  0.1uf*400V sound brighter than Multicap RTX 0.1uf*600V. I've tested it. It's good to hear. If you change the operating voltages RTX sound script is saved, but the tonal balance is changing. I am sure that this rule holds true for other types of capacitors. Can anybody help me in identifying the REL-CAP TFT? I need to install the REL- CAP TFT 0.1uf*?00V instead of the Multicap RTX 0.1uf *600V. At what voltage you need to take the REL-CAP TFT 0.1uf, that it fits into the tonal balance of the Multicap RTX 0.1uf*600V? I have a question only the balance of tonal (approximate). I understand that the script will differ (RTX has too bright and not delicate, not graceful high frequencies), but I want to keep the overall tonal balance sound system. I don't want to make the sound brighter or darker.
 I would be very grateful for the important information for me!
 I understand that it is more correct to buy REL-CAP TFT into different voltage and compare myself, but the price won't let me buy 100V, 200V, 400V, 600V just to compare.
 Thanks in advance!
 With best regards, Sergey.


----------



## adrianjones

I've recently gone from Clarity Cap ESA 250v in my tweeter (Fountek CD3) to Mundorf EVO OIL and the treble has really opened up.  Far cleaner, clearer and much more detail.  I'd love to try the Silver/Gold version which is supposed to be another step up in airy detail.


----------



## TurbOSquiD67

If you were to choose the best possible single, stacked, and bypassed cap options for a 100uF position (two 100uF output caps in the circuit) in a Crack/Crackatwoa, what would you choose?

Currently I've experienced Dayton 100uF, Evo OIl 100uF, and bypassing the Evo Oils with a Duelund .1uF Silver/Copper Hybrid. My next experiment will be with 100uF Evo Oil in parallel with a Jupiter 10uF Flat Stack, and/or bypassed with the .1uF Duelund.

I read mixed opinions, facts, and other about stacking and bypassing, most of which seems to be dependent upon the cap's purpose in the circuit.

Any experience, knowledge, lessons learned, and anything else you've got is much appreciated.

Thank you,

-T 

https://imgur.com/a/DlxvR

I do love the way she sounds 

Edit: just thinking that maybe a 100uF mid forward cap would go well with the Duelund, or Jupiter bypass. Higher frequencies seem to be filtered and smoothed, but also highlighted more than the rest of the range. 

Another option is to use a lower value Mundorf 47uF with a mid forward cap to get close to 100uF total, and then bypass.

I'm trying to recreate some of that pure coppy/silver tone with using bypass caps along with stacking values of other types. Because, you know, a 100uF pure copper/silver capacitor is totally affordable


----------



## JamieMcC

turbosquid67 said:


> https://imgur.com/a/DlxvR
> 
> I do love the way she sounds


 
  
 Congrats on the Crackatwoa build, it looks great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 After rolling lots of different capacitors in my own Crack you start to form a preference for a certain sound signature, I slowly gravitated to PIO with teflon bypasses but it is a personally thing and probably one persons best might not be liked by another. So probably its more about choosing a type of capacitor with known traits that will enable you to tweak the signature to suit the type of headphones you use to your own personal preference.
  
 With the Crack tube rolling also came into play there is a quiet a difference between a bog standard RCA 6080 and the more sought after tubes like the GEC 6as7g, Tungsol 5998/Western Electric 421a and Bendix 6080 but this might not be such a factor with the Crackatwoa.


----------



## TurbOSquiD67

jamiemcc said:


> Congrats on the Crackatwoa build, it looks great


 
 Thanks much Jamie!
  
 I slowly getting to the point where you're at - a preferred sound sig. 
 Does the Crack have (2) 100uF output positions? I can't remember. 
 That's a lot of capacitance to afford, haha. 
 I do notice the differences in cap types, but now I'm stuck in a corner not sure where to go next. 
 If I take a wrong turn, it could hurt financially, so I'm trying to mitigate that by asking a lot of questions. 
  
 What octal tube did you enjoy the most? I've stumbled upon the TS 5998 - so good! 6080/6AS7G/5998 differences are definitely heard in the C2A. 
  
 -----------------------------
  
I'm running this with Beyerdynamic T1's and DT-990's, Senn HD6XX and HD-600's (600's are so awesome I can't believe I waited so long to get them!). Dayton 100uF, Mundorf Evo Oil 100uF, as well as bypassing the Evo Oils with a Duelund .1uF Copper/Silver Hybrid - I do love what this has done to the highs. Although it sounds great, the Evo Oil and .1uF hybrid combo highlights treble a bit much, and also smoothed out the sonics. So a bit of good, and decent consequences. It has also recessed the mids and added a bit of wonky bass. This could also have to do with the 12BH7A in the mix which does have a bit of a U shaped sound sig IMO.
 
Seems like there's a lot of really smooth treble being focused on, and recessed mids. I assume this is because the Evo Oils are a bit bright, and the .1uF Copper/Silver highlighted that a bit much. My goal is to balance the sound with a mid forward cap, in parallel with a Mundorf. I was thinking 25% Jantzen Superior Z-Cap, Solen Fast Cap, or  Audyn Cap Plus (or Q4), and then 50% Mundorf Supreme Evo Oil, then top it off with 10uF Jupiter Flat Stacks and the .1uF Silver/Copper hybrid. 
 
100uF position bypassed with a .1uF Duelund vs. 100uF bypassed with a 1uF Duelund. What would be the difference in the effect of the bypass from .1uF to 1uF? More of a full bodied filter into the midrange, instead of only high frequencies?
 
Best!
 
-T


----------



## JamieMcC

turbosquid67 said:


> Thanks much Jamie!
> 
> Best!
> 
> -T


 
  
 The Crack uses one 100uf per channel for its output capacitors I believe the Crackatwoa circuit is similar to the Cracks except on the Crackatwoa  the power supply is shunt regulated which is where its performance gain is but I am guessing here.
  
 You are on the right track the Beyer T1's can be a bit trebly and sibilant at times so you do not want to use anything that highlights the treble region for bypassing a inexpensive Russian Teflon imho is going to sound better than most bypasses you’re going to need to be look at the top end caps like Jupiters, Vcaps, Duelund to achieve similar or better results. My experience with the Crack was that using a Teflon bypass with the T1 was the way to go it worked really well the top end was crystal clear and superb to listen to  the Teflon had a effect throughout the range from top to bottom. The only drawback with th e high end caps is they can take an age to break in especially the Teflon which needs at least 200hrs before they start to come on song. My favourite tube is the GEC 6as7g its the holy grail of the 6as7gand getting harder to find now.
  
 These russian MGBO (paper in oil) with a Teflon bypass were a favourite with the Crack and T1
  




  
  
 For me the 100uf  K75 40B bathtub pulse capacitor combined with a teflon bypass was my own top favourite for the Crack  the only trouble is its way to big to fit and I had to use fly leads to connect them up but it was worth the trouble and I really enjoyed listening to the Crack using them, ps it sound nothing like the normal K75-10 capacitors if I ever build a Crackatwoa these are tucked away ready and waiting to fit.
  
 You can find a few more of my Crack cap rolling adventures here   http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5284.0


----------



## TurbOSquiD67

Nice! 
  
 I think the MGBO-2 400V would be good for me, as I'm pulling a bit more current through the circuit with a slightly lower R1A value on the high current boards - keeps kreg on the low current board in check when running the 12BH7A. Or I could be wrong and 160V would be just fine 
  
 I could run 3 or 4x 20uF, and top it off with a Mundorf or Jantzen, bypass with teflon or other.  
 Which teflon did you go with, the K72P-6? I could possibly run .022uF FT-3's that I have.
  
  K75-40B's are hard to come by! Only a few for sale and their prices are quite high. Those things are huge dude! (that's what she said). I'm not sure that those would even fit in the C2A! Liking the creative mounting you have going on, awesome!
  
 Tried adding the Jupiter 10uF HT Flat Stacks in with the 100uF Evo Oils and .1uF Duelund - I like!
 Seems a bit more tame, and lush than without. A bit congested, but this is most likely due to the Duelund and Jupiter needing time to loosen up. While this cap setup may be almost perfect with the HD600's, the T1's are still experiencing quite the gap in the mid-range. Regardless, it does sound sublime, and even further detail has been reached! All while keeping a calm delicate representation. I can hear what people are saying in the crowd of some tracks, and voices (Anberlin live in New York via Spotify 320kbps) literally sound like I'm standing right there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Next I'm going to add a Jupiter .1uF Copper Foil in the same manner as the Duelund, this should even things out a bit more. Although, I really think that the Evo Oils are on the bright side, and mixing a lower value Mundorf with a Jantzen or other neutral cap will yield more balanced results. 
  
 Best!
  
 -T
  
 https://imgur.com/a/MnGhL


----------



## JamieMcC

I used three 30uf 160uf per channel but you might fit four in the c2a with all that space. What was the voltage of the ones that came with the kit the ones in the Crack are 100uf 160v ? You could always measure the voltage on yours to check. Your FT3 Teflons woukd be a great choice  I use some 0.22uf FT3 for output caps in a Eros and they really do sound superb  imo I would probably give them the edge over Jupiter HT and Mundorf SIO as a personal choice.


----------



## TurbOSquiD67

Cool. The C2A comes stock with 100uF 250V output caps. So I guess that question of a lower voltage would be for someone like PB or PJ. edit: oh I see what you're saying.... measure at the terminals of the output caps. 

Super interested in Mundorf Silver OIls, as I do like the lush but detailed tone. Hopefully I can hear them someday. Cap buffet testing stores should be a thing.


----------



## Elocai (May 28, 2017)

OverlordXenu said:


> You do know that it only takes a few seconds for capacitors to set, right?



For capacity the rated number is reached officially (in industry caps) after 1000hrs of use. Most changes happen in the first 10hrs.
You can check standart industry caps that come with documentation (e.g. Wima) there you'll find logarhitmic graphs that show this behavior.



PhaedrusX said:


> whether it takes a few seconds or a few hundred hours for the caps to settle, i wonder why more amp designers don't take the time to burn them in before soldering them onto the boards.
> seems like the simplest thing to do.



Soldering "resets" the capacity (and probably other things) of caps. So after burn in, you would revert all or part of changes made by soldering. This happens because when increasing the temperture of the materials the caps use, it resets it's structure and capacity can be far higher then ratet.

---------

I'm looking to do a coupling mod onto my Soundcard, need 3x12uF and 2x24uF, know the last one could be difficult so i would take 2x12uF for them, making a sum of 7x12uF.

My Budget is about 100€. First i thought I would buy Obbligatto Gold Caps. Now after reading this thread i'm thinking about K73-17 10uF, Wima MKP10 630V 10uF or Erse Pulse X 12uF.
Any recommendations?
And for a further upgrade (incase I find only 10uF not 12uF) any 2uF Caps that go well with the K73-4 or Wima MKP10?


----------



## davveswe

If the amp uses 4.7uf for output, can i use caps with lower values then? or will affect the performance of the amp?


----------



## lehmanhill

Generally speaking, changing the value of a capacitor in an amp will change the performance.  Depending on the circuit, it can also cause oscillations which range from making the sound terrible to damaging the amp.

What you can do is combine smaller caps in parallel so that they add up to 4.7 uF.


----------



## afshin (Jul 22, 2018)

hi all

10nf ERO 1837 PP cap in Olive oil ... by pass K72p6 military teflon capacitor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The main cover of the capacitor is shaved.

It can help a lot to combat environmental vibrations and audio feedback.












If the level of sound brightness was too high for your system, you can cover the glass surface with a copper plate.Lubricate copper foil sheet with grease. Like the picture below ...










Used silver wire and tin containing silver. Used Teflon Coated wire...
Do not forget this 20-hour Burn-in Time...have good time.

thanks .afshin


----------



## rafabro

Did you do it yourself?


----------



## afshin

Yes i have done


----------



## Reddart67

Since a lot of film/oil caps for OTL outputs are huge to get high capacitence at the needed voltage ratings, is there any reason you would not want to mount them outside of the amp chassis (like power supply caps often are mounted) if you have limited interior space? Especially motor run caps, with the connections on one side?


----------



## JamieMcC (Feb 9, 2020)

test


----------



## DenverW

Great thread!  I recently put in some 10uf 400vdc auricap xo in my bottlehead mainline, and I’m looking to make some changes to my crack as well.  I have two 100uf Kzk white line coming to replace the cracks output caps, so I’m open to suggestions for either bypassing them, or changing/bypassing the 220uf final ps cap.


----------



## JamieMcC (May 21, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Great thread!  I recently put in some 10uf 400vdc auricap xo in my bottlehead mainline, and I’m looking to make some changes to my crack as well.  I have two 100uf Kzk white line coming to replace the cracks output caps, so I’m open to suggestions for either bypassing them, or changing/bypassing the 220uf final ps cap.



Have you thought about doing the Triad cx-7 choke mod on the Crack the choke is around $12 but it is so effective at reducing ripple noise you will be able to use  a 100uf cap instead of s 200uf if your thinking sbout swapping the  200uf electrolytic for a film its worth considering for that last power supply capacitor and still achieve much lower ripple than the stock crack. A 100uf film will cost a lot less and be smaller and easier to fit than a 200uf if intended to fit in the stock enclosure dimensions need to be checked carefully to make sure it all fits.

Have fun


----------



## DenverW

I’m hoping to drill as few holes in the top plate as possible, a Choke may require a couple more.  Another idea is doing a 2.2uf bypass on the 220uf capacitor, and even potentially a .02 bypass on that.  It’s simpler.  How much greater the improvement with a choke and 100uf film capacitor?


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> I’m hoping to drill as few holes in the top plate as possible, a Choke may require a couple more.  Another idea is doing a 2.2uf bypass on the 220uf capacitor, and even potentially a .02 bypass on that.  It’s simpler.  How much greater the improvement with a choke and 100uf film capacitor?



A choke for me is one of the best value mods you can do with the Crack I've built probably 7 or 8 in the past and done the mods on several as well as trying bypassing. If I was doing another for myself the choke and 100uf film is the way I would definitely go. If you try a google image search  for the crack you should find a creative ways the choke can mounted.
Ps also have Mainline and Sex.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> A choke for me is one of the best value mods you can do with the Crack I've built probably 7 or 8 in the past and done the mods on several as well as trying bypassing. If I was doing another for myself the choke and 100uf film is the way I would definitely go. If you try a google image search  for the crack you should find a creative ways the choke can mounted.
> Ps also have Mainline and Sex.



I just put in a pair of Auricap xo in the mainline.  Did you bypass your mainline caps?  I won’t be doing anything to it for a long while so it can break in, I’m just curious.


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> I just put in a pair of Auricap xo in the mainline.  Did you bypass your mainline caps?  I won’t be doing anything to it for a long while so it can break in, I’m just curious.


I upgraded my Mainline caps to 10uf RTI Teflon tin foil capacitors. Out of curiosity I did run some 0.47uf Duelund cast coppers as bypasses on the teflons but  it was more to get some hours on the duelunds before I stalling them in my phono stage (Bottlehead Eros). I liked the results well enough that at some point I will try the Duelund silver foil bypass caps. But happy enough to wait till I see a good deal on them.


----------



## DenverW

Just popped in some Russian FT-3 to bypass the 10uf Auricap XO.  They're .1 caps.  Currently I'm giving them some burn in, and i'll give it a listen tonight.  It will be interesting to see if these do anything positive, as I've heard very conflicting reports about bypassing these.  I'll leave them in for at least a couple months to give them a run, and then either remove them and leave the caps alone, or replace them with K90y caps of the same value to see if I like those more.  The FT-3 at .1uf are almost the same size as the 10uf auricap xo.


----------



## HenryRo

Hi, I want to try taking the case off of SSG3 mica caps and putting them in wax. Has anyone done this and has advice? I don't want to spend hours filing down the steel case! Can I use a dremel grinder? How much space is there in the case? Is there something better than wax to put them in? Thanks! Henry


----------



## samoloko

Are Cornell Dublier 942 better than 940



lehmanhill said:


> A New Industrial, mid-price Cap.  Cornell Dubilier 942C
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JamieMcC

I had been thinking bout trying the Duelund silver foil bypass capacitors for a while now after installing their Cast Copper capacitors as output capacitors in my phono stage a few years ago.

Duelund very recently announced a new version of their silver and copper foil bypass caps along with slashing the price by 50% due to improved synergy after taking over Jenson who were winding them for Duelund. The new improved version is called the Duelund JDM (Jenson Domestic Market). 

After installing the silver foils in bypass configuration onto the 10 uf RTI Teflon Tin foilb output capacitors I use in my Bottlehead Mainline parrafeed headphone amplifier I have been listening to tunes through them for five days now.

Current chain 
Roon Rock (all SSD) >Oppo205 DAC >Bottlehead Mainline amp> Sennheiser hd800 (balanced cable)

These silver foils are quiet something the improvement has been significant and across the board from top to bottom. 

It's hard not to gush but in all honestly it feels like I am listening to a different dac and that's not some thing I expected to be saying or say lightly.

For £35 a pop I think they are a steal for the improvement I'm hearing on the Mainline.

For clarification I purchased theDuelund JDM Silver foil myself from Hificollective in the UK

Congratulation to Duelund for making such a superb product available at such a affordable price.


----------



## rafabro

In my opinion Jupiter Copper is a way better as bypass cap than Duelund ones.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> I had been thinking bout trying the Duelund silver foil bypass capacitors for a while now after installing their Cast Copper capacitors as output capacitors in my phono stage a few years ago.
> 
> Duelund very recently announced a new version of their silver and copper foil bypass caps along with slashing the price by 50% due to improved synergy after taking over Jenson who were winding them for Duelund. The new improved version is called the Duelund JDM (Jenson Domestic Market).
> 
> ...



Very cool!  So you bypassed the 10uf with .01?  I’ve been looking at the duelund jdm myself.  I may try the copper but I’m undecided.  Currently have a 10uf auricap xo bypassed with a .1 Teflon ft-3.  I was considering replacing the Teflon with a Miflex kpcu 01 (cheap at $20 for .1uf) but a second bypass with the duelund is intriguing too.  Any thoughts?


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> Very cool!  So you bypassed the 10uf with .01?  I’ve been looking at the duelund jdm myself.  I may try the copper but I’m undecided.  Currently have a 10uf auricap xo bypassed with a .1 Teflon ft-3.  I was considering replacing the Teflon with a Miflex kpcu 01 (cheap at $20 for .1uf) but a second bypass with the duelund is intriguing too.  Any thoughts?



Yes that's correct I bypassed the my 10uf with the 0.1 silver Duelund.  I like the ft3 very much and have used them in several builds myself. The Milflex seems to get mixed reviews from what I've read online but have not tried them myself. Personally I would just go straight auricap with JDM duelund bypass copper or silver.

What I didn't mention in the above post which relates to the Mainline is that the 0.47uf Cast Copper Duelunds I have in my phono stage pror to installing in the phono amp were used as bypass on the same 10uf caps in the Mainline  to help burn them in a bit quicker around 200 hours.

The cast copper made a noticeable difference when used as a bypass in the Mainline but in comparison didn't come anywhere close to what I felt was a step change in performance the silver foil JDM gave in the same position in the Mainline.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> Yes that's correct I bypassed the my 10uf with the 0.1 silver Duelund.  I like the ft3 very much and have used them in several builds myself. The Milflex seems to get mixed reviews from what I've read online but have not tried them myself. Personally I would just go straight auricap with JDM duelund bypass copper or silver.
> 
> What I didn't mention in the above post which relates to the Mainline is that the 0.47uf Cast Copper Duelunds I have in my phono stage pror to installing in the phono amp were used as bypass on the same 10uf caps in the Mainline  to help burn them in a bit quicker around 200 hours.
> 
> The cast copper made a noticeable difference when used as a bypass in the Mainline but in comparison didn't come anywhere close to what I felt was a step change in performance the silver foil JDM gave in the same position in the Mainline.



You mean .01 Duelunds, right?  Thats one of the questions I had: if it made a difference with a 1/1000 bypass as opposed to a 1/100.  I suppose I could just experiment leaving the Ft-3 in or not.  I do think I'll take your advice on the silvers vs the copper.  I was thinking a bit of a darker sound, but I think you've convinced me.


----------



## JamieMcC

Yes sorry the 0.01 Duelund JDM bypass capacitors. I've never been to hung up about ratios for bypassing I've always had a few different Russian teflon types in the spare parts box and just tend to go with what's been  to hand.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I am using the Miflex KPCU-01 / 02 in some different builds, I think they sound pretty good!  Although I haven't done a direct AB comparison to similar offerings, too much fuss.  I will say that my recently completed phono stage uses them in two positions of the signal path, coupling and output, and the sound overall is very nice.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> Yes sorry the 0.01 Duelund JDM bypass capacitors. I've never been to hung up about ratios for bypassing I've always had a few different Russian teflon types in the spare parts box and just tend to go with what's been  to hand.



" The outer lead out, closest to the edge of the capacitor, is connected to the outer foil and as such should be connected to the lowest impedance path to ground, generally the signal output. "

Did you follow this at all?  I suppose I should have BEFORE I just soldered them in, although its an easy fix.


----------



## JamieMcC

I wouldn't loose any sleep.over it as I doubt you will notice any difference which ever way round they go  it's meant to help with noise rejection but if all is quiet personally I would leave it as is.


----------



## rafabro (Oct 24, 2020)

DenverW said:


> " The outer lead out, closest to the edge of the capacitor, is connected to the outer foil and as such should be connected to the lowest impedance path to ground, generally the signal output. "
> 
> Did you follow this at all?  I suppose I should have BEFORE I just soldered them in, although its an easy fix.


I never followed until last couple weeks ago I started when one guy told me to connect caps on tweeter other way then suggested (if currently I hear slice to much high freq with the caps I have). I tried and I heard small but clear difference. So from now on I pay attention to that.


----------



## DenverW

@JamieMcC I can always take a look and see what orientation they're already installed in.  Pretty easy fix if I feel like doing it.  Would the lowest impedance path on the mainline be point 20 and 30?


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> @JamieMcC I can always take a look and see what orientation they're already installed in.  Pretty easy fix if I feel like doing it.  Would the lowest impedance path on the mainline be point 20 and 30?


I'm not able to find out my build manual is on a pc that needs a battery replacement (Microsoft surface) so needs to be sent away to be fixed and my Mainline is at my brother's house. Try asking on the bottlehead forum.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> I'm not able to find out my build manual is on a pc that needs a battery replacement (Microsoft surface) so needs to be sent away to be fixed and my Mainline is at my brother's house. Try asking on the bottlehead forum.



Heh, I did.  A week later, there is still no reply.  They’re usually super helpful.


----------



## evgenibgr

I need a 1,5-2uF capacitor on input of amplifier. I wondering between Mundorf Supreme, Jantzen Alumen Z-Cap, CDE 942C. What is the best choice? 
The price and the size of this caps its good for me.


----------



## dimkasta

The CDE are decent for their price. Still, nothing to write home about.
The mundorfs were disappointing to say the least.
I have not tried the Jantzen.


----------



## evgenibgr (Dec 2, 2020)

dimkasta said:


> The CDE are decent for their price. Still, nothing to write home about.
> The mundorfs were disappointing to say the least.
> I have not tried the Jantzen.



Here have good words for Alumen Z-Cap

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

"Sound: Jantzen Audio seem to know what they are doing with this Alumen Z-Cap. They have created a modern day capacitor that doesn't sound "modern". This might be a strange way of describing what I mean, but to me it combines the best of both "modern" and "vintage" worlds. The music flows, has a smooth presentation and at the same time it is high in contrast. The Alumen Z-Cap has high resolution in a natural way, it is without glare that you usually get with some of those "high-end" capacitors. There is an adictive balance between warmth on one side and and openness on the other. Tonally speaking it is the exact opposite of the Mundorf Supreme EVO Gold Oil that is at a similar high quality level. The Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO Silver Gold Oil is a very clean, detailed and open sounding with lots of contrast, great depth and heaps of micro detail. The Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Cap is also open and also has lots of contrast but does it with a warmish undertone. Where as the Mundorf can get a bit on the lean side of neutral in some situations, the Jantzen maintains coherency under all conditions. The combination of and balance between these characters is spot on and make the Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Caps create music with a great sense of realism. Comparing the Alumen Z-Cap to other aluminium foil capacitors like the Jupiter HT BeesWax Paper you understand what I mean with a modern day capacitor that doesn't sound "modern". The Jupiter HT Beeswax has a similar clear and open presentation but also slightly rounder and softer, more "vintage" if you like. In direct comparison the Alumen Z-Cap is more neutral (as you might of guessed by now, I like my music to sound neutral). Compared to the extremely neutral Duelund RS copper foil, the Duelund gives you richer harmonic overtones but with slighlty less sparkle at the top. In the end the Duelund does show you what real absolute neutrality is - although to obtain that you need to spend a lot more money. Taking that into consideration, the Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Cap is an absolute bargain! I also found the Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Cap to mix extremely well with the Clarity Cap CSA and CMR. Both types blend together seamlessly with the Alumen Z-Cap. Overall the combo with the CMR is more lush and spatious with a wide and deep image. It paints a bigger image. The combo with the CSA projects the image more forward and sounds a little brighter. Although the slightly brighter presentation with the CSA can be welcome in some cases / recordings, over extended periods of time I prefered the smoother sound of the Clarity Cap CMR with the Alumen Z-Cap. I have added the Jantzen Audio Alumen Z-Cap to my favourites list. "

After this review I tend to choose Alumen Z-Cap over Supreme, but I hesitate over 942c


----------



## rafabro

Definitely go for Alumen. Very saturated sound with lots of detail. It sounds so natural. Worth to try.

Also WEET WMH sounds really good. Same aluminum ones.


----------



## carrots99

Anyone ever tried NOS Siemens MKL capacitors? Did a search on this thread but didn't find anything specific.

I was thinking on using the following to replace the stock capacitors on my Fxaudio Tube 03:








Thanks


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## Giru (Jun 1, 2021)

Hey all!
I'm Looking to upgrade the output caps in my 6SN7 line gain stage. Currently using a pair of AudioPhiler MKP 400V 2.2uf.

Any recommendations? 

Edit: No set budget but looking to limit it under 100USD.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I would ask what your budget is and how much room is available in the chassis.  That will dictate the type of film cap that can be used.


----------



## Giru

L0rdGwyn said:


> I would ask what your budget is and how much room is available in the chassis.  That will dictate the type of film cap that can be used.


😅Just realised I hadn't mentioned my budget.
I'd like to limit it below 100USD. Lots of room in the chassis.


----------



## Tea-Bag

Giru said:


> Hey all!
> I'm Looking to upgrade the output caps in my 6SN7 line gain stage. Currently using a pair of AudioPhiler MKP 400V 2.2uf.
> 
> Any recommendations?
> ...


I have done a fair amount of testing with 2.2uf caps in Salas UltraFSP phonostage.
Clarity CMR  - gold standard, balanced, detailed, not shrill.
Mundorf Silver/GOLD/Oil EVO - very detailed, bright, not quite as full sounding as CMR
Rike S-Audio Paper/Oil - Bouncy, organic, fun sounding. If you listen to trash mastered music, these whisky colored glasses will help.
Miflex KPAL - really close to the CMR. Maybe a little more forgiving. Massive size.


----------



## Giru

Tea-Bag said:


> I have done a fair amount of testing with 2.2uf caps in Salas UltraFSP phonostage.
> Clarity CMR  - gold standard, balanced, detailed, not shrill.
> Mundorf Silver/GOLD/Oil EVO - very detailed, bright, not quite as full sounding as CMR
> Rike S-Audio Paper/Oil - Bouncy, organic, fun sounding. If you listen to trash mastered music, these whisky colored glasses will help.
> Miflex KPAL - really close to the CMR. Maybe a little more forgiving. Massive size.


I see.
I felt the same about the Rike caps although people tell me that the newer production ones sound different. 
Didn't like Mundorf at all and haven't used them for some years now.

Will check out clarity cmr and miflex for sure. Thanks!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

+1 for Clarity Caps and Miflex


----------



## Giru

The size of the 2.2uf Miflex KPAL01 is 76mm(D)  x 70mm(L)!! Golly molly!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Yeah, Miflex caps are huge, but they are the best bang-for-the-buck copper foil capacitor out there.  Anything else will still be large, smaller but more expensive.  Clarity Caps have a good balance between size and performance.

Rike Audio S-CAP 2 are also a good choice, they should be more reasonably sized at 2.2uF if you want a PIO cap.


----------



## Giru (Jun 1, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Yeah, Miflex caps are huge, but they are the best bang-for-the-buck copper foil capacitor out there.  Anything else will still be large, smaller but more expensive.  Clarity Caps have a good balance between size and performance.
> 
> Rike Audio S-CAP 2 are also a good choice, they should be more reasonably sized at 2.2uF if you want a PIO cap.


Yes indeed. I remember seeing AmpOhm caps that were this big, some years ago.

The Rikes' will be over my set budget so I think I'll give them a pass for now. I'm very intrigued by Miflex and clarity. Size favours clarity tho.


----------



## JamieMcC

Giru said:


> Hey all!
> I'm Looking to upgrade the output caps in my 6SN7 line gain stage. Currently using a pair of AudioPhiler MKP 400V 2.2uf.
> 
> Any recommendations?
> ...



Have you considered using Duelund JDM bypass capacitors there are copper and silver foil options and are well within your budget.

Very impressed with the silver foil ones I installed.


----------



## Giru

JamieMcC said:


> Have you considered using Duelund JDM bypass capacitors there are copper and silver foil options and are well within your budget.
> 
> Very impressed with the silver foil ones I installed.


Can't seem to find Deuland bypass caps in 2.2uf. Do you have any links?


----------



## JamieMcC (Jun 2, 2021)

When using a bypass capacitor you use a low uf bypass capacitor in parallel with the 2.2uf so the original ones stay in place and the bypass is added to them in addition. So you would have 2.21uf 

Edit it's important to make sure any new capacitors voltage rating is equal to or above that which is currently in use.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-87178.html


----------



## Giru (Jun 2, 2021)

JamieMcC said:


> When using a bypass capacitor you use a low uf bypass capacitor in parallel with the 2.2uf so the original ones stay in place and the bypass is added to them in addition. So you would have 2.21uf
> 
> Edit it's important to make sure any new capacitors voltage rating is equal to or above that which is currently in use.
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-87178.html


Right my bad sorry


----------



## JamieMcC (Jun 2, 2021)

The two most obvious advantages would be cost particularly if you need a large value say 100uf 

Space is the other big advantage true metal foil capacitors tend to be substantially larger than a metallised films fitting them in can prove a challenge.

Cons sometimes you can get a smearing effect but I've used bypasses extensively and have never experienced it myself though I have tried bypasses that I've not liked the results of using but that's more personal taste.

A well worn path in the DIY community is using inexpensive low uf value surplus military russian teflon capacitors off of eBay as by passes. Most often it's a case of suck it and see but when the capacitor is say the cost of a coffee there's not much downside to experimenting.

 Have a Google about on russian teflon bypasses

Edit here's a link to a piece by John L who posts here with some thoughts on a few of the more popular ones

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor3.htm


----------



## Giru

JamieMcC said:


> The two most obvious advantages would be cost particularly if you need a large value say 100uf
> 
> Space is the other big advantage true metal foil capacitors tend to be substantially larger than a metallised films fitting them in can prove a challenge.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply! 

I've used; or rather was using; Russian PIOs for decoupling in my DAC. More often than not I found that these have variable tolerances (not according to spec) and the sound though very accetable, was nothing to write home about.
I'll still look around and keep you guys posted on what I find! 
Cheers!


----------



## DenverW

The miflex might be large, but they’re fantastic caps.


----------



## rafabro

DenverW said:


> The miflex might be large, but they’re fantastic caps.


Copper ones yes, they brilliant. But the cheap MKP nothing impressing, comparable with SCR or JB Premium.


----------



## DenverW

I don't suppose anyone has any idea or feedback regarding the duelund jdm pure copper bypass cap vs the duelund jdm tinner copper bypass cap?  Former is half the price; curious on the sound...


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> I don't suppose anyone has any idea or feedback regarding the duelund jdm pure copper bypass cap vs the duelund jdm tinner copper bypass cap?  Former is half the price; curious on the sound...



I've not compared the two but have used used Duelund Cast copper and V-cap cutf copper teflon. After using the JDM silver foil bypass on both I am very happy with the results.


----------



## DenverW

JamieMcC said:


> I've not compared the two but have used used Duelund Cast copper and V-cap cutf copper teflon. After using the JDM silver foil bypass on both I am very happy with the results.


Mainly I'm trying to figure out if it would be an audible loss of qualify with the pure copper vs the tinned copper.  I'm being cheap and trying to save some bucks


----------



## JamieMcC

DenverW said:


> Mainly I'm trying to figure out if it would be an audible loss of qualify with the pure copper vs the tinned copper.  I'm being cheap and trying to save some bucks



Trouble is if you buy copper and find they are amazing (which they undoubtedly are if the Duelund Cast coppers are anything to go by) then your inner self will start thinking about the pure silver foil version, you know the very best of the best the dogs danglies etc and only a few bucks more (insert face palm icon).

My advice fwiw

Don't be cheap it's only a small difference sacrifice a few coffee's, make a sandwich rather than have a take away, have a night in rather than a night out and your there.

You will be appreciating the quality long after the cost is forgotten.


----------



## Lvivske

So I'm looking to recap my Valhalla sometime in the horizon (several of the caps are bulging, its 12 years old) was wondering a couple things. (Stock are 470uf 250v)

1. Is it recommended i get something with a higher voltage than my stock Rubycons for longevity purposes, or just leave it? (worth paying extra?)

2. Of the one's available and recommended, Nichicon KX look like the best fit at the moment. There's also Kemet ALT22 series and Cornell 381LX. Are any better than the others for my purposes?


----------



## CJG888

Audio Note Kaiseis?


----------



## Lvivske

CJG888 said:


> Audio Note Kaiseis?



Couldnt find appropriate specs for the Kais (probably for the best given the price) and the standard Audio Notes are too fat to fit so had to take them off my list


----------



## Seamaster

Has anyone tried new Jupiter VQ and Comet caps? 

https://jupitercondenser.com/collections/audio-capacitors

They are so new that I can't find any info on them, how they sound and tonal signature.


----------



## JamieMcC

Seamaster said:


> Has anyone tried new Jupiter VQ and Comet caps?
> 
> https://jupitercondenser.com/collections/audio-capacitors
> 
> They are so new that I can't find any info on them, how they sound and tonal signature.



Was looking for some info on the Jupiter silver foil VQ myself a couple of days ago but couldn't find anything other than the official communication provided by Jupiter.


----------



## Seamaster

JamieMcC said:


> Was looking for some info on the Jupiter silver foil VQ myself a couple of days ago but couldn't find anything other than the official communication provided by Jupiter.


They look like are toning caps


----------



## philv

I recently had mundorf  evo  oil (aluminium) 3.3 450v coupling caps put into the line stage of my valve preamplifier. the sound seems a little bright and not as full as i was expecting. is this likely to change after significant burn in hours? Anyone used these caps ? how long to burn in?  Hanks.


----------



## Lvivske

hmm, I put mundorf coupling caps in my marantz and it went from warm to bright and "off", now youve got me thinking that was the culprit...


----------



## Sean H

I have a Musical Paradise MP-701 MK2 tube preamp and it has the capability to "roll" coupling caps. Currently, I have a pair of Mundorf Supreme Gold Silver Oil 2.2uf 600V coupling caps and while I know these are fantastic sounding caps I know that they are known to highlight the treble a bit and I can hear that. I would like to explore some paper in oil caps, such as caps from Miflex and Jupiter, but I'm finding for the spec I need that diameter size is an issue and caps from Miflex and Jupiter that I have identified won't fit.

So, I'm thinking of trying the "cheat" of bypassing the Mundorf coupling caps with a .1uf 600V Miflex copper, commonly seen in speaker crossover designs, to see if I can shape the tone of the Mundorf's just a touch. The question is, is it ok to bypass a coupling cap in a (tube) preamp with a very small value cap?

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.


----------



## ostewart

Quick question for anyone that knows - needing to replace the power filtering caps in my Marantz PM-66 Ki Signature amp. 

Stock are uncommon 56v 12,000uf - would it be safer to replace with 50v 15,000uf, 63v 15,000uf or 63v 10,000uf?

Thanks


----------



## EagleWings

@philv mundorfs can be bright like that. Whether you can hear the brightness will depend on the circuit, the tonal balance of the gear and your sensitivity to treble. Some of my friends don't find it bright. But a couple of folks I know who are sensitive, have found mundorfs to be on the brighter side.

@Sean H yes, using bypass cap will be totally fine. But try going for 0.01uF for the bypass. I am surprised an equivalent from Jupiter is too big as in many cases Jupiters and Mundorfs are not that far off in dimensions. Also check out the dimensions of the Audyn Copper Max and Audionote Copper. 

@ostewart 63V 15,000uF is what I would choose.


----------



## bagwell359

philv said:


> I recently had mundorf  evo  oil (aluminium) 3.3 450v coupling caps put into the line stage of my valve preamplifier. the sound seems a little bright and not as full as i was expecting. is this likely to change after significant burn in hours? Anyone used these caps ? how long to burn in?  Hanks.


I think they mellow with 200+ hrs, but other variables were changed so hard to say for sure.  Bypass caps used in this amp?  Any other changes during same tineframe?


----------



## bagwell359

ostewart said:


> Quick question for anyone that knows - needing to replace the power filtering caps in my Marantz PM-66 Ki Signature amp.
> 
> Stock are uncommon 56v 12,000uf - would it be safer to replace with 50v 15,000uf, 63v 15,000uf or 63v 10,000uf?
> 
> Thanks


What's the +/- on the stock caps?  In a blind situation I would avoid any with v under 56.  If your caps are +/- 10% 15k uf should be fine.  Also a trick I use for cheap caps and resistors is buy 3 or 5, then test them and use the best match and toss the others in the back-up pile.


----------



## ostewart

bagwell359 said:


> What's the +/- on the stock caps?  In a blind situation I would avoid any with v under 56.  If your caps are +/- 10% 15k uf should be fine.  Also a trick I use for cheap caps and resistors is buy 3 or 5, then test them and use the best match and toss the others in the back-up pile.



I've found some Kemet and Epcos 12,000uf 63v caps - so I've just got to decide which to go with


----------



## bagwell359

ostewart said:


> I've found some Kemet and Epcos 12,000uf 63v caps - so I've just got to decide which to go with


Buy 3!  That's good, better than taking a chance.


----------



## ostewart

bagwell359 said:


> Buy 3!  That's good, better than taking a chance.



Decided to go with CDE 12,000uf 63v big caps

And a mix of Nichicon FG/ES (ES where there was no FG option) and Elna SILMIC II for the rest of the board 

Nice little project when I get a free day at some point.


----------



## bagwell359

SILMIC II and FG's both have a transparency and rich treble harmonics that really set them apart.   Nice that they are affordable too.


----------



## ostewart

It was successful, however some of the Silmic II's are quite a bit bigger than the stock caps so I had to use the legs to position them better.

Also the 63v 12000uf caps are a bit wider than stock too, just about fit but again had to offset some of the surrounding caps.

From what I have read, whilst not the neatest solution, it's fine to have them standing up away from the board


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

Has anyone by chance heard the Vcap CuTf in a tube amp?
I have the TFTF in it and am actually happy with it.
I don't know what I'm hoping for, it's probably a passing fancy of mine that the CuTFs might work better than the TFTFs.😇


----------



## JamieMcC

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone by chance heard the Vcap CuTf in a tube amp?
> I have the TFTF in it and am actually happy with it.
> I don't know what I'm hoping for, it's probably a passing fancy of mine that the CuTFs might work better than the TFTFs.😇



Hi yes I have Vcap CuTf output capacitors in my Elekit TU-8900 300B amp if you wanted to visit the Elekit 300B BB you will find a good few Elekit TU 8900 and TU 8600  owners who have installed them and get a few more responses than here, probably one or two who might have done the same swap your thinking of as well.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/elekit-300b-amp-kit.869957/

All rhe V-caps are super caps and hard to fault the Cutf is amazing for sure.

Fwiw I did run RTI tin foil teflon caps in another amp (Bottlehead Mainline) for 6 or 7 years and it was a killer combo and hard to beat with the Sen HD800 out of curiosity I added a pair of the Duelund JDM Silver foil bypass caps and was very impressed with the results.

I've done plenty of cap rolling in the past many of the big brands but the effect of adding the silver bypass caps on the teflon were like listening to a different DAC and amp.

So while I have V-cap Cutf in my amp currently the Duelund Silver bypass caps are also fitted to them and am very happy.
But a swap out of the V-caps for a full silver capacitor is scratch that will need to be itched when funds allow.

If your capacitor uf value is not to high maybe think about making the jump to a silver foil capacitor or if it is a higher uf value and super expensive then consider adding the Duelund JDM silver foil bypass cap to your V-cap TFTF.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
Thanks for the feedback.
I had a look but didn't find much in the Elekit forum.
It's a great amp too, the 8900R itches a bit too.

About the caps,it's a Feliks Euforia amp,under the 6SN7 socket I installed the TFTF and under the 6AS7G the Vcaps Odam also for space reasons that was just right.
The Feliks has silver wiring, I don't know if silver caps would be good like the An Silver.
I actually want to move away from the neutral a bit as the Feliks already is,with the TFTF and Odam's there was a noticeable improvement without question.

I was just wondering if the VuTfF on the 6sn7 base will become less neutral.
A little more heat would certainly be a good thing.
Of course you could also use something else like the An copper or Duelund.
The capacitor strength is 0.33 uf 600v.
The Odam has to be baked because I didn't do it myself and had to have it done.
You have good access to it on the 6sn7 socket and it can be done in a few minutes.


----------



## JamieMcC

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for the feedback.
> I had a look but didn't find much in the Elekit forum.
> It's a great amp too, the 8900R itches a bit too.
> ...




Maybe something like the Jupiter Silver foil vitamin-Q might give you what your after they are not to spendy either. They have not been out that long and limited values are available and feedback is pretty scarce.


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## Deleeh

Hey 
I don't know if decoupling is a good idea on the amp.

According to the Vcap calculator it spits out 0.08 so the 0.1 from duelund would fit.

However, I have to say that when I first changed the TfTf I used 0.33 uf instead of 0.22 uf where it was installed.
That was an ordering error on my part.

But I think that the 0.33 uf is better in terms of clarity and depth effect.
According to the Vcap calculator, it even plays deeper than with 0.22 uf.
But I lose a bit of volume, so it takes 1-2 mm more away, which is not wrong.
Because you have more control over the volume.

What is actually with these here?
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/copper_foils.html

Are they above or below the Vcap Cutf in terms of sound?


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## les24preludes

Hi guys, I need a recommendation for a coupling cap for a DHT valve stage. Value 0.47uF to 1uF. I have plenty of teflon FT-2 0.1uF which is my standard choice but I want something larger for a DHT valve preamp project.

So far I rigged up a quick and dirty setup where I could add caps after my existing FT-2 coupling cap. This yielded:
- no added cap. The cleanest sound, unsurprisingly
- K40Y 0.22uF, 1000V. Didn't like this one, shouty and hard tone on vocals.
- KBG-MN 4uF, 600V. Huge size, and too large a value. But very promising. Absolutely nothing I didn't like - everything smooth with nice tone. Sound was more expansive while the FT-2 is very focussed. Vocals were very natural. Piano a little more rounded, but the overall sound was very pleasant. Impossible to add to existing equipment due to the size, but possible for a new build.

So any opinions on these:

MBGCH
KBG-MP
K71-4 polystyrene.

And any recommendations for good value non-Russian caps? Not boutique prices.


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## Jon L

les24preludes said:


> Hi guys, I need a recommendation for a coupling cap for a DHT valve stage. Value 0.47uF to 1uF. I have plenty of teflon FT-2 0.1uF which is my standard choice but I want something larger for a DHT valve preamp project.
> 
> So far I rigged up a quick and dirty setup where I could add caps after my existing FT-2 coupling cap. This yielded:
> - no added cap. The cleanest sound, unsurprisingly
> ...


Try the Russian military K75-10.   It's a hybrid paper/polyethylene film in oil cap, which sounds great and still plentiful on the Bay.


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## les24preludes

Jon L said:


> Try the Russian military K75-10.   It's a hybrid paper/polyethylene film in oil cap, which sounds great and still plentiful on the Bay.


Yes - I know some like this cap. I tried it once and the FT-2 was so much better I dropped it from my "interesting" list. I have some KBG-MN in 0.5uF coming in the post. From what I heard of the 4uF ones I have this will be a good coupling cap. Quite rich and full compared to the teflon, but a very pleasant sound. I'll report when I get them. They may suite a leaner tube like the 2P29L - that's a combination I'm going to try.


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## samoloko (Dec 30, 2022)

does anyone have experience with new Duelund Cast PP or PP/Silver line https://andersenaudio.dk/shop/66-cast-pp/


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