# silver "coated" copper,best or worst?



## music_man

is silver coated copper wire the best both copper and silver have to offer or the worst of both? or does it just depend on the particular cable?

 to be honest all my ic's are pure silver and my speaker and headphone wires are pure copper. i think that was probably a better way of achieving the balance. i hope i was right!

 thanks,
 music_man


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## scootermafia

I don't like silver-copper hybrids, they're just not neutral.


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## FraGGleR

From what I read, silver plating the copper was a way of preventing oxidation and allowing for extrusion in teflon. It wasn't supposed to have anything to do with the sound signature of wires. ALO has certainly made a lot of money saying it is the best of both worlds, but I don't know how many here think it really is (some say it is excessively bright). 

 FWIW, when talking to some folks with $100,000 systems in their workshop(!), they preferred the route you have taken. Use pure IC's and then mix and match to taste.


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## music_man

thats exactly how i feel. they seem to take away the benefits of both and only leave the negative aspects of both behind. they sound distorted and smeared to me.

 i am pretty happy having all silver ic's and copper speaker and headphone wire. that seemed to work out great for me. 

 i do have a silver coated power cord on my amp but that is because i just got it for free. all my other pw cords are copper.

 i think the attraction of silver coated copper is to people that want pure silver but won't spend for it.

 i'll wait and see what other people have to say about it.

 music_man


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## IPodPJ

Anytime I've compared OCC copper to silver plated copper (SPC), the OCC copper beats it hands down. SPC has an almost muffled and congested sound quality to it. I'm not sure why it has such a negative effect, but it does in my experience. And it's not bias either; wires I didn't even know were SPC until much later still didn't sound as good to me. Of course if you only have SPC and you haven't heard anything better, you'll probably think it's fine. And likewise, OCC silver sounds better than SPC.


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## SP Wild

I concur with the observations being made with SPC. It only appears to bring out the top end, because it muffles and smears the midrange - SPC power cables dont so much as smear but lessens the staging of the midrange - also bringing out the top end - bit more bearable. my audioquest pure solid silver is not at all bright - neutral and fast - yes, warm - possibly. 

 I feel hybrid cables are not good. solid copper is cheaper and sounds more coherent.


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## music_man

i am surprised everyone seems to feel as i do. i thought i was going to be alone on this.
 i would not have guessed this was the popular opinion. glad to hear it is then.

 music_man


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## music_man

without starting another thread i wonder if you guys agree about something else.

 i would rather have a cable with several large solid strands, each in their own dielectric than a cable with hundrends of tiny strands grouped as one.

 agree or disagree?

 music_man


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## IPodPJ

It depends on your requirements. If you need flexibility, multiple strands are better. Solid core supposedly has less resistance since you don't have microscopic gaps between strands (which means less copper in a given area), but I don't think you would be able to tell the difference between good solid core and good high-count stranded wire.


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## BIG POPPA

With Tube gear and Senns I prefer SPC. Yes it's a pain to burn in especially if you get the big stuff. A few freq's will be off until it burns in. The mids will be recessed and the highs will suck. My power cable, IC's, and headphone cables are SPC. Use Rhodium connectors to smooth it out. That is the secret.


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## El_Doug

two things keep these cables popular with manufacturers: 

 1) SPC is often used because it is DIRT CHEAP to buy in bulk - tons of industrial components use this type of wire. 

 2) it is very easy to make claims about wire "having the detail of silver," (whatever that means) "while retaining the warmth of copper!" (whatever that means). really, no other wiring is so easy to spew bs about


 if one does believe that cables affect the sound, then the issues of skin affect are no doubt paramount. having a thin coating of silver will make the higher frequencies travel faster and stronger than the mid and low frequencies, which will pass into the copper core. thus, only a SPC cable should sound "bright" - solid core copper should have an unadulterated full spectrum


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## BIG POPPA

My power cable is from Furutech, I use Rhodium ends from Oyaide.
 My IC's are 16AWG SPC with Furutech Rhodium Connectors, The Headphone cables are 24AWG with Cardas and Furutech connectors. Also have cables from BJC, Kimber Kable, and some others. Just find myself going back to the SPC stuff. Been with the SPC stuff the last few years with tubes. With SS like copper with Gold connecters. Gold is very lush if you use the Oyaide, WBT, and Furutech connectors.


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## music_man

i actually like my stealth dream cable. it has many large gauge solid copper and solid silver conductors in a very complex array.

 if anything is the best of both worlds that might be it. it is not like cheap spc.

 i am using pure copper right now for speaker cables but the stealth is no slouch. i may never get it broken in though since i don't always use it.

 i still think cables that use some type of highly specialized copper make the best speaker and headphone cables for the gear i have. all ss. i like solid silver ic's. i think that balances out real nice for me. i just don't prefer the sound of mixing copper and silver in the same cable in any way. i also do not like silver at the end of the run. i think it is best to introduce the silver at the source if you are going to do it. that's just my results. i have a solid silver aes/ebu cable as well.

 i am actually disapointed that i have a spc power cable on my amp but it is an expensive cord i got for free. free is good. actually it is not spc, it is a melted alloy. i'll probably replace it with one of the many copper ones here when i get sick enough of it. it does not sound bad but my high end copper pw cords sound better. maybe i should switch it to a source component if i want to use it?

 as far as the solid vs. stranded i prefer many larger gauge conductors in a cable. like 18awg each. i don't know if that counts as stranded or solid. i just don't like cables with 1000 tiny wires all in one dielectric. oddly enough i am currently using cardas golden reference speaker cables. so i guess i am not making much sense. i suppose it depends on the actual cable and not the formula maybe.

 edit: the pw cord i was speaking of is indeed spc not a melted alloy as i mentioned. free or not, gotta go.

 edit2: i think i just found my perfect speaker cables! tara labs omega gold. 168x24awg solid 99.99999999 copper conductors in pe air tubes! if you have to ask....


 music_man


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## googleborg

i think (i know) silver is used as a market gimmick to insinuate a higher price point than is congruent with the fact that silver coating is laughably cheap.

 even very pure, solid silver?? not that expensive at all. but put lots of reason-colouring verbs and adjectives next to the pricetag and whoosh.


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## music_man

well i figure this. solid silver jewelry is dirt cheap compared to 18-24kt gold and platinum.

 so they put a tiny amount of silver coating or even a comparatively small amount of solid and explain that it is very expensive and that is why the cables are very expensive. regardless of the sound, that is pricing snakeoil. in fact i think super pure copper gets more than silver at the metal yard!


 it is strange to me that people that could afford to spend $50,000 on a wire are not some of the smartest people around. i pay for these darn things because i like them. that does not mean that the prices are at all fair!

 at least when you spend that on a component you can open it up and see exactly what you got. only patrick82 opens up new expensive cables afaik.

 i am going to look at that tara cable i mentioned today and maybe buy it. at least you know what you are getting. copper.

 music_man


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## Markj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I concur with the observations being made with SPC. It only appears to bring out the top end, because it muffles and smears the midrange - SPC power cables dont so much as smear but lessens the staging of the midrange - also bringing out the top end - bit more bearable. my audioquest pure solid silver is not at all bright - neutral and fast - yes, warm - possibly. 

 I feel hybrid cables are not good. solid copper is cheaper and sounds more coherent._

 

After I got my SACD player and headphone amp I made XLR interconect from Mogami cable and after while I wanted to try something better, so I bought Black Mountain silver cable. There was little diference in sound. Next came Audioquest Cheetah and I could hear big improvement in clarity and detail. Comparison was done with K701 and HD800.


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## NumLock

Wow, lots of negative points on the SPC. 
 I have a bunch of SPC wire here at work. So my question is should I make my IC and headphone cables with the normal copper or the SPC? Keeping in mind that they are free.


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## El_Doug

make both, and decide which you like better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i'd of course vote for the copper


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## Happy Camper

Copper with digital sources and SS amps. SPC with tube and analog sources. Of course this is only an opinion.


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## music_man

i got the tara cable today. i paid about a quarter of what it retails for. it sounds really good right out of the box. i have a "network" of people i deal with for these types of purchases that have built relationships with over many years. the markup on this stuff is beyond belief. i also got the aq everest(silver) at a great savings about a week ago. i like the tara better. i think solid silver ic's are ok but i prefer copper speaker and headphone wires. it seems very few companies make high end copper cable. it is all silver. which as pointed out is just bs marketing. silver is cheaper than the purest copper.

 i'd like the transparent opus mm2 but no one wnats to take more than $500 off the $43,000! thats so nice of them. they can keep it. even though it is not just a cable. it is also in fact an assortment of fancy electronics. so it truely is a component and not a cable. still, they can keep it!

 music_man


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## 9pintube

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Copper with digital sources and SS amps. SPC with tube and analog sources. Of course this is only an opinion._

 

My choice also, and I've heard them all! (In my system) that is....


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## SP Wild

Actually I recind my statement that SPC is bad - after I bought my AQ Cheetah cables I took home for audition the Nordost red dawn (very unique construct) sliver annealed onto copper - they did not exhibit the midrange suckout and they were very detailed at the top end - very comparable and possibly better (due to top end detail) than AQ king cobra solid core copper (same price bracket) - I was very impressed - but the Cheetahs were in a different league and price bracket (I paid more for the cheetah interconnect than my headphone -650 or my dac at the time - dacmagic - the differences were that huge compared to other cables I auditioned at home).

 I have always used the furutech SPC power cable with furutech rhodium connectors on my bryston dac to counter the slight treble roll - off in this dac. I justified sacrificing some midrange soundstage as the staging of the dac was huge anyway.

 I will make a return to the nordost SPC range as I have recently got into tube amplification and these were my thoughts exactly. I wanted to return to this thread to mention the Nordost cables which I remebered soon after posting - and I read these post that are confirming my suspicions - good timing this thread!!!

 Talk about mass placebo.


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## Currawong

According to AJ Van Den Hul, silver extruded on copper is better than silver plated. I have a little experience with some SPC cables and I agree, they can introduce harshness. However, VDH cables which are silver extruded over copper, and the APS V3 (which is mostly silver, so could only be extruded) don't have this characteristic.


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## music_man

higher end vdh is pretty good stuff? i was wanting to get some but i was afraid they would be bright from the silver coating. well to be exact i wanted the revelation or super nova speaker cables. that must be a lot of silver and even more copper!

 music_man


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## SP Wild

Does "extruded" mean the same as "annealed" - I don't know what either really means other than it is somewhat different to "plating".

 I had some really mind bending experiences when I finally was able to come across a retailer that allowed me to try any cable to my hearts content - and buy if I like - Listening to all the construction techniques - and almost infinite tuning possibilities. 

 Its like buying a car you like - then modifying to your perfection. The guys around head-fi really help point me in the right direction.


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## Bones13

Extruding is the mechanical process of forming wire from a bigger shape, with the heated metal being squeezed through a form.

 Annealing is a heating process that changes the malleability or softness/toughness.

 As I am hoping to start making some DIY ICs, I am watching this thread with interest.


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## SP Wild

I have waiting for me 10 metres of cat 6 cable and some rca's. When I get around to it I will make a few interconnects and report back - I am hoping they would be comparable to up to $300 retail connects. I plaid 3, 8 gauge, car power cables and stuck to furutech ends for a power cable - I then went to seek a refund on my $300 power cable.


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## music_man

it seems vdh is against most other high end manufacturers. i want to see what they are thinking. they use many fine strands of silver over copper in the same dielectric. most other companies use a few larger gauge strands in seperate dielectrics. also some of the very most expensive cables are pure copper!

 i like a cable i have that is solid copper and solid silver. i prefer copper speaker cables though. it is a shame that only a few companies make high end copper speaker cables. everyone else went to silver coated. the high end copper cables are very expensive. more expensive than silver cables.

 music_man


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## SP Wild

Perhaps you have cottoned on to properties of copper having positive attributes with speaker and hp cables and silver for low level line signals. I have yet to explore further. No doubt SPC is becomming more common - however AQ solid silver is supposedly made of "premium silver" - These sorts of exotic silver won't come cheap.

 Nordost only deal with copper and silver combinations in all their cables (or most), as with VDH - perhaps it takes more insight to make these combinations shine. 

 I just think SPC should be approached cautiously at the entry to midrange prices.


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## Currawong

VDH wire is never bright, but generally neutral. I wish they had wire in 24-26 AWG actually, but aside from what's built into their ICs, I can't find any.

 If you wanted clearly distorted, try some Nordost ICs. The highly regarded Heimdalls have clear distortion that results in the mid-range sounds coming forward, for example.


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## SP Wild

Hmm.. I never heard VDH - There are no retailers in sydney - Australia that carries them.


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm.. I never heard VDH - There are no retailers in sydney - Australia that carries them._

 

Duratone in Canberra are the Australian distributors. Every hi-fi shop seems to have its own preference for what brand of cables they carry.


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## Black Stuart

And none of you mention dialectric at all!

 I've spent 3 years making and trialling all kinds of combos - copper/silver and silver/plated OFC i/cs and I don't recognize anything stated except that speaker cables are definately better when all copper.

 CCC - continuous cast copper is very expensive to produce and producing i/cs from this material, indeed all copper i/cs need a lot of attention paid to anti-oxidant measures, whereas oxidized silver or silver/plated copper will still conduct an audio signal better than copper.

 On Sunday I belatedly changed the signal wiring in my heavily modded Bada PH12 from mil.spec. 26AWG Kapton wrapped silver/plated copper to bare silver/plated (I carefully chose the micron level) HCC (high conductivity copper). I had replaced all the original wiring and used the same wire that I was making i/cs from then. This is something I should have done when I suspected that any bare wire was going to sound better than any wire wrapped in Kapton/Teflon or any kind of poly material.

 I started working with bare wire over a year ago. I was expecting some kind of uplift in performance but nothing like I experienced. Detail/focus/timbre a top end that just goes on and on and bass that is so expressive, deep and tight. Piano always the big test - just as it should be.

 Recessed mids/distortion/muddying - I just don't recognize any of this. Of course the design is very important and so is the dialectric.

 There is an old saying that - "the best dialectric is air" and that is what Nordost use in their top end cables. Really big teflon tubes which allow plenty of air around the multiple conductors and that is the kind of dialetric and design that I use as well. I was'nt aware that I was moving towards their design until a Dutch friend told me.

 I've tried all kinds of plugs and yes they are an integral part of the sound. Furutech are great but very expensive as are the WBTs. Copper Eichmans are just behind these two - what a pity they are such a rip-off price.

 I Have found the best price for the Eichmans and when they arrive I shall make up some sets to send out for trialling, if I get a positive response I shall consider going commercial.

 So before buying or making i/cs take a look at the wiring inside your amp/h/amp, I replicate exactly my i/cs.

 Incoming signal wire should be sheilded, I also sheild the wiring from shunted pot to PCB. Do this first not last as I did - whatever you want to try for i/cs use the same in your amp - continuity is what comes to mind.


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## music_man

i am the one that stated i prefer all very high quality copper speaker cables. i prefer silver plated or extruded silver over copper ic's. not only nordost but many of the high end manufacturers surround the ccc or pcocc or single crystal or whatever fancy copper with air! indeed, air is the best dielectric. of course copper cannot really be completely exposed for any time so they just "hang" them in teflon or preferrably pe tubes.

 i think the best speaker cables now are straightwire crescendo II. they offer all of this. they are very affordable compared to others. intrestingly their lower cables are silver plated. their top cable is pure copper. just the opposite of other manufacturers. many companies have people sold on silver is expensive. no it isn't! super pure copper is expensive! very. yet, the crescendo II is really a bargain.

 i have been switching cables for weeks and this stuff is the best so far. also i would pick a $1,500 retail audioquest copper over the $12,600 retail everest! they kinda shot themselves in the foot with that. anyone that spends 12 grand probably knows what they are buying. at least i'd hope.

 music_man


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## SP Wild

I had a look at the Nordost power cables - The effort they put into "suspending" the copper in a tube of air is extraordinary, no doubt costly - more so in their interconnects. Simple psychology tells me one would never be bothered unless absolutely convinced that benefits are to be had.

 Nordost power cables appear to be of good value, as is DIY Furutech cables and their connectors - even a dummy could put it together. Anyone that can hear a difference in interconnects should easily discern between the supplied generic power cord and entry level upgrade.

 I have no speaker cable knowledge as I have a pair of $200 Tannoy M1 bookshelves and use CAT 6 for simplicity sake - solid core copper!


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## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have been switching cables for weeks and this stuff is the best so far. also i would pick a $1,500 retail audioquest copper over the $12,600 retail everest! they kinda shot themselves in the foot with that. anyone that spends 12 grand probably knows what they are buying. at least i'd hope.

 music_man_

 

No they don't. They want to be lied to. These companies come up with all sorts of b.s. lingo and practice shady marketing strategies. They list these opinions as fact. If a company is going to charge a high price for a cable, they should have some integrity and just say they think it's the best they've ever heard, but at this point in time they can't honestly explain why it sounds better. They can say they _think_ they know why it might, but have no empirical evidence to back it up. But of course that would never happen, because then the goons that count on those lies to base their purchase decisions on would never buy it.

 If you feel cables make a difference, and I do, you could make one yourself with the best copper and several layers of dampening and shielding for a few hundred, or get a good cable maker to do it for a grand or less. And even then most people would still say you're crazy. But $12,600??? Please, do you have any idea of the kinds of components you could get for that price that would stomp all over the performance gain (if any at all) from that cable?


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## grokit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I read, silver plating the copper was a way of preventing oxidation_

 

Yea I read that too, along with the fact that copper oxidizes and oxidation degrades the signal transmission


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## music_man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ But $12,600??? Please_

 

lol, transparent sells a cable that is nothing more than annealed copper with some large "mystery" box they will say nothing about....for $43,000! there is a (rich) sucker born every day. i guess they don't then haha,duh! i can tell you honestly that many $1,000 cables sound better. to me at least. all you need is very good copper with very good dielectrics(air is best). you can easily do a pair of that in 6 feet for less than a grand. as i said about audioquest, they make a better cable for a grand or so then they do for almost 13 grand. oops! however for your grand there are even better cables than aq. you honestly do not need to spend more than a grand to get about the best speaker cables if you are carefull what you are buying and don't believe bs you are being sold on. a grand is more than enough to get exceptionally good 1 meter ic's. this is just my opinion. if you have $40+ grand and wish to spend it on a cable more power to you. i just hope your rabbits don't have it for lunch like patrick's did! double oops!

 music_man


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea I read that too, along with the fact that copper oxidizes and oxidation degrades the signal transmission 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not unless you're using the copper for a mechanical connection.

 se


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## murfy

Isn't nearly all copper continously cast now? Since it can be much more cost effective to produce. No more starting and stopping all the time, machines running almost continously without human intervention while resulting in a good quality product.


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## scootermafia

Only three factories in the world are licensed to make OCC copper - I believe this includes Furutech and Neotech. There are a few other factories out there that make mono-crystal copper but are not authorized by the patentholder. However, looking at your post you don't seem to understand what OCC copper is.


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## music_man

i have read than the occ machine has to run for a day then be shut off the next day to cool down. that is why it is so expensive. i just read that, it could be more bs.

 music_man


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googleborg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_even very pure, solid silver?? not that expensive at all. but put lots of reason-colouring verbs and adjectives next to the pricetag and whoosh._

 

That's not really true. Going from very high grade solid solid copper to high grade solid silver of the same gauge will cost you at least 3X as much or so per foot. Neotech's OCC Silver costs about 5X as much as their OCC Copper - $11.49 a foot for 20 AWG hook up wire. 

 I'm also not a fan of SPC, but I don't think just copper, in OCC solid core or Tara's 8N RSC forms are the end-all be-all. In my opinion, the very best cables use silver foils or solid silver. Mixing some gold in with the silver can also produce very good results. Siltech's G7 stuff is excellent.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *murfy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't nearly all copper continously cast now?_

 

Yes. Though not all use the Ohno process.

 se


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## MacedonianHero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I read, silver plating the copper was a way of preventing oxidation and allowing for extrusion in teflon. It wasn't supposed to have anything to do with the sound signature of wires. ALO has certainly made a lot of money saying it is the best of both worlds, but I don't know how many here think it really is (some say it is excessively bright). 

 FWIW, when talking to some folks with $100,000 systems in their workshop(!), they preferred the route you have taken. Use pure IC's and then mix and match to taste._

 

I don't get this as silver oxidizes just as quickly as copper. Gold on the other hand does not.


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## music_man

i should not really be mentioning this but i sold the everest for more than i paid for it and got tara omega gold. well, they are not completely mine i am demo'ing them with the everest as collateral. these are what i was looking for and they only have 3 hours on them! the things are i mean huge! as in size. if people feel cables do not make a difference then they should just buy a bose system. if i go from a radioshack cable to any of the multi thousand dollar cables the difference is like you just spent that much on a better amp and speakers! the top tier of equipment is not complete without the cables.

 sure, at some point there are diminishing returns but do you put steel wheels on a lamborghini?

 copper speaker wires are where it's at for me. i just prefer them. i use solid silver ic's and aes/ebu cables. for me at least that combination renders the sound i am looking for.

 maybe the tara is 5% better than a $1,500 cable but it is worth it to some people me included. i don't care if a silver speaker cable was a million i doubt i'd like it.

 to the above post, silver tarnishes. copper oxidizes. the reason gold is so coveted is because no matter what you do to it ti is still gold. i don't know if gold is a good conductor though. i am waiting to try van den huls carbon cables. that is really the only departure from metal by anyone as far as i know.

 i mentioned before that i thought the lowes cable is comparable in signature to the tara! still, i can't live with having lowes $15 wire on the type of equipment i have. i might be a snob and a sucker but it is my choice. i think both are better than the odin which i would also trade if i go for the tara.

 music_man


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if people feel cables do not make a difference then they should just buy a bose system. if i go from a radioshack cable to any of the multi thousand dollar cables the difference is like you just spent that much on a better amp and speakers!_

 

If only someone could finally demonstrate that to be the case.

 It's been decades. So far, nothing but talk.

 se


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## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only someone could finally demonstrate that to be the case.

 It's been decades. So far, nothing but talk.

 se_

 

Transparent Cable demonstrated this easily comparing the stock cable to their cable, to their cable with conditioning. I was in their demonstration with about 500 people at Music Matters 5 event at Definitive audio in Seattle. There was a handful of Head-fiers in attendance besides me. Definitive Audio custom home theater, high-end audio, video and systems integration for the Seattle Tacoma area


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Transparent Cable demonstrated this easily comparing the stock cable to their cable, to their cable with conditioning. I was in their demonstration with about 500 people at Music Matters 5 event at Definitive audio in Seattle. There was a handful of Head-fiers in attendance besides me. Definitive Audio custom home theater, high-end audio, video and systems integration for the Seattle Tacoma area_

 

I meant something more than a dog and pony show.

 se


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 to the above post, silver tarnishes. copper oxidizes. the reason gold is so coveted is because no matter what you do to it ti is still gold. i don't know if gold is a good conductor though. i am waiting to try van den huls carbon cables. that is really the only departure from metal by anyone as far as i know._

 

I'm not sure I would describe gold as "coveted", as its lower on the conductivity scale than copper. It's great as plating material for connectors, and mixed in with silver in tiny amounts as used by Siltech, Crystal, and Mundorf, where it can balance silver's hyper detail with warmth and body. You may find Siltech speaker cables very much to your liking. 

 Stealth offers pure carbon interconnects in the Nanofiber, and metalized carbon in the Metacarbon. Both are supposed to be quite good, but not as balanced and pure as Indra. The new Sakra is basically Indra supercharged, and could be the best interconnect out there. 

 Some tiny companies I've never heard of have experimented with liquid conductors before, but Audio-Magic is the first big brand I've seen try it with their Liquid Air series. And of course Harmonic Tech's Cyberlight series have no metal in them.


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant something more than a dog and pony show._

 

It's simple. Get some cables and try them out. if you notice an improvement, keep them. If you don't, send them back.


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## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant something more than a dog and pony show.

 se_

 

This it what they did. Played a song twice with the stock cable to get familiar with the song. Played the song again with the power cable, then again with the cable with conditioning. Their cables are better than stock. They are not my cup of tea but the demonstration worked simply and effectively. Dog and Pony.....Hardly.... To the POINT. Absolutely. It doesn't take rocket science to demonstrate their point, just good preparation. And they were just fine.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This it what they did. Played a song twice with the stock cable to get familiar with the song. Played the song again with the power cable, then again with the cable with conditioning. Their cables are better than stock. They are not my cup of tea but the demonstration worked simply and effectively. Dog and Pony.....Hardly.... To the POINT. Absolutely. It doesn't take rocket science to demonstrate their point, just good preparation. And they were just fine._

 

It's a dog and pony show. Like the old patent medicine guys used to do.

 se


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## Uncle Erik

You have to take suggestion and psychology into account when conducting listening tests. If people expect to hear something they usually hear it. Check out the studies on wine where people are told that the same wine alternately costs $10 and $100. When told that it costs $100, it always rates as better while the $10 "version" usually gets low marks. This is the same reason people can't tell the difference between a coathanger and a four figure cable when they don't know what it is.

 As for oxidation, copper, silver and gold all oxidize. Silver tarnish is oxidation. Gold tarnishes, too, but at a much lower degree than most metals. I recently put a roughly 60 year old gold Zenith wristwatch back into daily use. It was lightly tarnished and needed a polish. I've also seen it on coins that have lain untouched for a few decades as well as jewelry.

 Oxidation is mostly a cosmetic thing, anyway. I've kicked around lots of old electronics over the years. There are lots and lots of oxidized parts inside a 60 or 70 year old radio. Not a big deal. A lot of it can be ignored and the set will still operate - and measure - jus fine. Once, I got an old General Electric fan (ca. 1920-1925) that had been _left outside_ for at least several years. The wiring was marginally OK, so I blew the leaves out of the base and head, oiled it, then plugged it in for feces and giggles.

 It worked. Took a few minutes to loosen up, but it ran fine.

 Of course, I replaced the wiring after. You should have seen how awful the headwire was. Talk about oxidation, it was cloth wire, probably around 80 years old and had been left outside for a period of years. It still conducted OK (assuming, of course, that a DMM actually works and gives accurate measurements, which is contrary to some beliefs here), but I felt better with a new wire.

 I've found the same after yanking the innards from old light fixtures, too. Even 100+ year old wire that is massively oxidized still works, it just becomes unsafe from the breakdown of the dielectric.

 Then again, sometimes I kick myself for throwing out all that ancient wire. Just think of the decades of "burn-in" it had. Maybe there's a market for extremely burned-in wire.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then again, sometimes I kick myself for throwing out all that ancient wire. Just think of the decades of "burn-in" it had. Maybe there's a market for extremely burned-in wire._

 

Actually, some of the Japanese audiophiles covet 60-80 year old Western Electric cloth covered wire. 

 se


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## Black Stuart

Good to see only one threadcrapper has appeared, which means we can still have a sensible discussion.

 DaveBSC/Musicman - good input from both. If someone has the money to buy quality gear why should'nt they - there are far worse things money can be spent on but I agree totally that it would be far better to uprate the rest of your rig rather than spend lots of money on mega priced cables. 

 Dave - you've described silver wire very well and that's why after using both copper and silver exclusively I just had to try silver/plated copper and for me 

 I do hope someone will try my suggestion of changing the signal wires in their amps - if you don't like the sound you can always replace the original wiring, so who will try it?.


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## music_man

well, as i have stated many times i do believe! i want to believe. some adults beileve in santa. thats all that matters to me. i hear a difference for "any" reason. it does not matter to me what that reason is. i hear all the arguements that they do not make a difference. i "believe" they do. i enjoy them. as black stuart just said there are far worse things to spend your money on. some people believe drugs make their lives better. cables will never let you down in that way! sure, one day they may no longer make a difference to you. so what will you do? go buy the newest better ones! i enjoy them,ok?

 look at the watch and cigar thread. it can be said a timex keeps better time than a zenith and all cigars taste the same. go tell them that!

 music_man


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thats all that matters to me. i hear a difference for "any" reason. it does not matter to me what that reason is._

 

I have no problem with that at all as that's exactly how I approach it.

  Quote:


 well, as i have stated many times i do believe! i want to believe. some adults beileve in santa. 
 

That doesn't jibe with what you say above though.

 On the one hand you say you don't care what the reason is. Yet on the other, you say you believe it's for one particular reason. So contrary to what you say above, it seems that the reason does indeed matter to you.

 Anyway, the reason I responded to you originally was your "if people feel cables do not make a difference then they should just buy a bose system" comment.

 I think that was a bit uncalled for.

 se


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## music_man

well i guess that was kind of a rude statement sorry. i know many people understand high end systems and do not hear any difference in cables as well.

 i meant that i am open minded. many choose to take an aproach based on science and not their ears. i did the opposite.

 now, i was wondering if vdh are considered the "good" silver over copper cables. they can be had very cheap from sources. so if they are the good ones i'd like to know. the others that are mentioned are much more expensive. i still don't think mixing copper and silver is great. use one or the other. or use one in one place and the other in another place as i did. i don't know if a couple hundred dollar vdh will sound better than the tara omega gold but anything is possible. as i just said, i am open minded. i never decided it is not possible. i aproach this with the feeling "anything" is possible.

 i am sorry i insulted bose and the readers here by making such a statement. i retract that.

 music_man


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## BIG POPPA

music_man your example was fine. The person who got offended just likes to stir things. You can't please everybody, don't worry about it.


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have to take suggestion and psychology into account when conducting listening tests. If people expect to hear something they usually hear it. Check out the studies on wine where people are told that the same wine alternately costs $10 and $100. When told that it costs $100, it always rates as better while the $10 "version" usually gets low marks. This is the same reason people can't tell the difference between a coathanger and a four figure cable when they don't know what it is._

 

This is usually the result of people who don't know anything about wine. An expert should be able to easily tell apart a real $100 bottle of wine from two buck Chuck. 

 The placebo argument is a classic and tired one brought up again and again by cable deniers that simply doesn't hold up in the real world. If cables all DO sound the same, then the placebo effect should work perfectly. The most expensive cable is the best because it's the most expensive, job done. 

 Unfortunately, the effect doesn't work. I've tried some VERY expensive stuff that I didn't like AT ALL. Just one example, PS Audio Statement. I think it was a $700 power cord. A/Bed it against my PS Audio Prelude, which was something like $150. The placebo effect should be in full force, because both cables should sound exactly the same, my mind should be telling me that the $700 "Statement" cleaned the Preludes clock, I should sell the Prelude immediately, and be happy as a kitten with my new Statement level cord. Right? Isn't that how its supposed to work? Except it didn't work that way at all! The Statement uses a lot of ferrite and a bucket load of copper in its design, and it's a very bass heavy and dark sounding cord. I liked my Prelude much better, and sent the Statement back. How did that happen? Care to explain?


----------



## music_man

i would go so far as to say the power punch was better than the statement. they thought they were building the best cable they knew how at the time. they should have just listened to what they buillt before they sold it. since ps-audio is a great company i doubt they intended to rip off their customers. it just happened that way.

 likewise with aq's last lineup. i think the gibraltar was a better speaker cable than the everest. that is just because once again, i do not prefer silver in speaker cables. many people might disagree though.

 which brings up the point that many people hear different things. some may feel a $100 cable sounds the best and not a $25,000 one. that is why like you said davebsc, the effect does not work.

 i have found especially with cables that the more expensive one is not always the one i like better even from the same manufacturer.

 music_man


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i would go so far as to say the power punch was better than the statement. they thought they were building the best cable they knew how at the time. they should have just listened to what they buillt before they sold it. since ps-audio is a great company i doubt they intended to rip off their customers. it just happened that way._

 

Most of PS's "classic" cables weren't all that great. I was never a fan of the old xStream interconnects or speaker cables either. The Resolution and Transcendent cables especially from a few years ago were much better, but they weren't in production all that long. I haven't heard the new AC-10 or the AC-12, but I have a hard time believing they can outperform Shunyata's CX series. I do agree that PS is a great company. Paul makes himself very available for questions, and with the Perfect Wave stuff it seems like the company has a new found focus on truly high performance products. The gaincell stuff never did it for me.


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## grokit

Back to oxidation and resistivity for a second, thought I would add the "official" wiki-def:

 "*Wire material*

 Use of copper is more or less universal for speaker wire; it has low resistance and less cost compared to other suitable materials. Copper and aluminum both oxidize, but oxides of copper are conductive, while those of aluminum are capacitative and insulating.

 Silver has a slightly lower resistivity than copper, which allows a thinner wire to have the same resistance. Silver is expensive, so a copper wire with the same resistance costs considerably less. Like copper, silver is also subject to oxidation.

 Gold has a higher resistivity than either copper or silver, but it does not oxidize, so it can be used for wire-end terminations. Suitably specified gold flashing has its uses for appropriate tasks, but in domestic use such flashing is not normally functional, for several reasons."


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## music_man

some of you say you like silver coated. extruded or whatever. if given the choice would you take a high end solid copper cable over a lower end stranded silver coated(by whatever means) cable? do you feel silver just outperforms copper in any amount?

 i mean like tara rsc against vdh that is $50 a meter. that might sound stupid but i was wondering if anyone feels you must have silver in your cable.

 i prefer the tara gold to the everest and dream. none of those are coated though. in fact i am having a hard time finding a super high end silver coated cable!

 music_man


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## music_man

i kind of typed my thoughts wrong. i meant: if someone offered you a $50 per meter vdh(or other silver coated cable) or a $1,500 per meter tara(or other solid copper cable). you could not hear them first. which would you gamble on? is it about price? or what you think would actually sound better to you? i saw vdh makes silver cables for less than $10usd a meter!

 it seems most people were with me on solid copper. i just wonder how much better the coated copper crowd thinks they are.

 i don't prefer the dream either. it is solid copper and solid silver. i say stick with one or the other in a single cable. untill i hear differently. i think the new "oak" is much nicer than the everest and new wildwood from aq and they are a lot less money. i just prefer copper speaker cables. to that effect the tara omega gold is the cats meow imo!

 music_man


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## SP Wild

I would place my bets on the dearer cable unheard. Nothing wrong with copper. If my solid silver audioquests IC's were actually made of recycled coathanger - doesn't mean I will seek a refund. What I believe I hear is what I believe to be better - It just means I will suddenly start to speak of coathangers in an unusually high regard.

 I don't believe headfiers are exposed to good ic's as good ones are not cheap. Niche market = small demand with few suppliers. Price = function of demand and supply. The only way to prove that cables do make a difference is to turn it into an olympic sport - and that won't happen.


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## music_man

i have come to the conclusion that it depends solely on the cable. there are $5 a meter silver coated cables and there are $5,000 a meter silver coated cables. i still prefer one or the other solid and no mixture though. also i have realised that the cheap cables a re "coated". the better cables are extruded or whatever and that seems to make a difference. i just do not hear that mixing them is any good solely in speaker cables. in ic's or power cords i have heard some nice ones. i sill think using solid silver "here" and solid copper "there" is better than using silver/copper hybrid cables througthout. that is just my opinion though.

 still, i feel solid super high purtity occ copper makes the best speaker and headphone cables. silver is too bright to me to be at the end of the signal chain.

 i think it is safe to say a very expensive solid copper cable may in fact be better than a cheap silver coated cable. likewise, with a solid silver cable.

 music_man


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_still, i feel solid super high purtity occ copper makes the best speaker and headphone cables. silver is too bright to me to be at the end of the signal chain.

 i think it is safe to say a very expensive solid copper cable may in fact be better than a cheap silver coated cable. likewise, with a solid silver cable.

 music_man_

 

Cheap silver coated cable is never great. Like solid silver, solid copper can be good or bad, pretty much regardless of price. Depends on the cable. _Generally_ I tend to prefer silver over copper, but a mix of the two can produce excellent results, for sure.


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## Black Stuart

DaveBSC,
 I don't use 'cheap silver/plated copper wire' I bought mine from MWS - the copper is high conductivity OFC with a bright finish (very important that) silver plating.

 I think it's worth introducing here ' the skin effect'. How does an audio signal/electrons travel via the conductor/s from A-B. Here we are dealing with a scientific fact and not 'received wisdom/BS'. Take a look at the info on Wikipedia.

 So most of the signal is travelling on or near the surface and the quality/purity of the conductor is very important indeed. As stated the best conductor barring 'super conductors' is silver and that is why so many 'commercial' conductors are copper with silver plating. It also explains why the best (functioning) HDMI cables are silver plated copper.

 I won two auctions yesterday - Mundorf silver/gold 24AWG and silver UPOCC 26AWG wire. It will be interesting for me to make up two more sets of i/cs - very nec. these reality checks. When I have made and tested them I will get back to this thread with the results.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 So most of the signal is travelling on or near the surface and the quality/purity of the conductor is very important indeed. As stated the best conductor barring 'super conductors' is silver and that is why so many 'commercial' conductors are copper with silver plating. It also explains why the best (functioning) HDMI cables are silver plated copper.

 I won two auctions yesterday - Mundorf silver/gold 24AWG and silver UPOCC 26AWG wire. It will be interesting for me to make up two more sets of i/cs - very nec. these reality checks. When I have made and tested them I will get back to this thread with the results._

 

Silver plated copper is very effective for high frequency "digital" applications such as S/Pdif or HDMI that are far above the audio band. It's not so great for analog cables carrying transmissions within the audio band, such as ICs and speaker cables. Tara makes this argument as to why they _don't_ use SPC, and I agree with them. 

 Please let us know how your ICs turn out. The Mundorf in particular is supposed to be good stuff. They have actually just started a commercial cable company built around their silver/gold wire. Some competition for Mr. and Mrs. van der Kley.


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## music_man

the skin effect is not at the frequencies of analog or digital audio. so people trying to sell cables based on that really are bs'ing. hey, i am with you guys i love cables. i am just telling the truth as i know it.

 the taras are solid copper. no silver at all. i am using the omega gold and it is my favorite speaker cable so far. my ic's and aes/ebu are solid silver. i prefer the tara to the aq everest(solid silver). it seems that there are no ultra high end spc cables. there must be a reason then. the most expensive spc cable i can find is from vdh for $500 a meter. are there much more expensive ones i don't know about?

 music_man


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## SP Wild

Going by these posts my HD650 cable upgrade will be in the form of copper only.

 Interestingly I have noted that nearly all audioquest IC's listed on ebay Aus are definite counterfits, at least 90 perc of high-end IC's, speaker cables etc are definite counterfits - I nearly ordered a set of AQ Sky ICs. I wonder how much of these fakes make it to a noob and then we have a new, fierce sceptic, proclaiming the rip-off when differences are not heard. I know I would have.


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## Lenni

Quote:


 *So what's in a Cable?*

 Let's make a bold statement: "The best Cable is No Cable" 
 Let's make another one: "The Ideal Cable does not change the Signal traveling through it in ANY way." 
 Let's make a third one: "No Cable can improve the sound-quality of a system, they only make it worse in varying degrees." 
 And indeed, the best Cables I came across make things worse only a very little bit. The worst however.... 
 I personally divide "effects" in audio into three "orders". These refer both to magnitude of effects and to the "obscurity" of the underlying principles. 
*First Order* effects are those that produce massive and immediate changes to the sound. First Order Effects also mostly tend to have a direct, simple, logical and scientific explanation.
 To elaborate, for interconnects capacitance is a first order effect. Use Goertz Interconnects (these are essentially unrolled capacitors) for a few meters and most sources will substantially roll off the treble due to the excessive Capacitance of the Cable. 
*Second Order* effects make appreciable differences but are harder to pin down with logical explanations, though in most cases they exist and can be found. 
 To elaborate, the sonic difference between stranded cable, litz/hyperlitz cable and solid-core cable falls into this category, as does the dielectrical quality. Both matter quite a lot, but ultimately, if our cable has massive problems with First Order Effects any second order effects (for better or worse) will often be swamped out by these. 
*Third Order* effects are way down and also, in many systems the resolution of the System is not high enough to seriously magnify the differences. In my own system I only begin to get a handle on third order effects. 
 I think the Conductor-material argument (silver vs. copper vs. plated copper vs. exotic conductors) falls into this category. 
 

Hi, I just stumbled across this SITE. is anybody familiar with it? seems a pretty good source of info. I'd say the statement "The best Cable is No Cable" seems kinda make sense


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## Uncle Erik

DaveBSC, I was not aware the was anything to _know_ about wire. Please direct me to genuine evidence. All you offer is folklore, superstition and hokum. So does anyone elee who purports to "know" about wire. You are speculating based on the collective folklore you've read and what you _expect_ to hear when you "listen" to a cable. You cannot pass a blind test and you know it. You also know very well that there are no measurable differences in wire. There's nothing but nothing in cable "research."

 I am posting from the phone and cannot link to surveys and research, but there is a great deal of research supporting that even experts have a difficult time telling wines apart.

 The critical difference with wine is that you can objectively measure the chemical diffference between different wine varieties. Whether that makes one better from another boils down to taste. But you can demonstrate a physical difference, unlike cables.

 If you actually know something about cables - aside from folklore and superstition - go ahead and tell us. Maybe you can finally settle 30 years of controversy with absolutely no tangible results.


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## music_man

the thing is some of these companies are playing with capacitance and resistance and impedance. if they are doing that it can make a slight difference. if they did it to the point that it made a large difference most likely what you would have a is a huge degradation in sound quality!

 i just like to "imagine" the cables do something. just like a sane adult may adore santa but knows the real truth. if the adult felt otherwise they would be considered to have a phycological issue. my background is based in science but i enjoy certain myths as well.
 no one can say i am wrong for choosing to feel and spend my own money this way.

 those of you that are confident that they scientifically make a difference when they are within proper specification are entitled to your opinion as well. however true science would suggest otherwise!

 i am not being a cable "hater" i love cables as i have said many times. i just happen to know whats up as well. i think that is the best way to aproach it. many people are seperated from their money with very misleading practices.

 i will also state that "placebo" is a science in and of itself. so in that realm the claims are completely legitimate. whether you care to realise this or not is up to you.

 there are measurable differences in cables with a simple dmm. as, i said unless they are way out of spec those differences do not translate into different sonic properties within an audio system. 

 i still wish to feel they do. i just enjoy them. anyone else that enjoys cables for whatever reason they base their findings on are perfectly welcome to do so.
 there are a lot worse things you can be spending money on and playing with.

 there is no reason to argue this. with me at least. i know the truth. i see fit to find otherwise.

 why then did i start a post asking what i did? well, i wanted to know peoples opinions thats all. copper conducts more than good enough. silver conducts better. that is based in science. does it make a sonic difference in cables of an audio system? that is up to you for whatever reason you base your findings. i simply wished to know what other people felt. i did not even ask them to state a reason for their feelings!

 music_man


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## Lenni

I’m still a noob at this, I haven’t compared many cables to give any thoughts on the subject, but I must say I don’t know what it is about cables that I find absolutely compelling – the designs, materials, look – fascinating, if I had the funds I’d buy them all


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## Black Stuart

Musicman,

 Does the signal travel through the whole of the conductor or does it travel virtually completely on the surface of the conductor?

 If as stated the signal travels virtually entirely on the surface of the conductor then it would explain the big difference I have experienced between the same type and gauge of wire wrapped in Kapton or Teflon and bare wire - this is not placebo.

 Have you or anyone else tried this very simple experiment if not then it is theory and not from practice.

 I also asked if anyone was prepared to change their amp internal signal wire to replicate their i/cs - silence. It can't be because this is a difficult thing to do or that it is completely and easily reversable.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you actually know something about cables - aside from folklore and superstition - go ahead and tell us. Maybe you can finally settle 30 years of controversy with absolutely no tangible results._

 

I noticed you completely dodged my response to the placebo argument. So I will ask it again. Your argument is that all cables are nothing more than the equivalent of a sugar pill. If that is the case, than the biggest, flashiest, most expensive cable with the best marketing will _always_ sound the best. That's how a placebo works. 

 If all cables measure and sound the same, please explain how a cable with the factors of size, flash, price, and a page and a half of marketing materials extolling its virtues can utterly fail a simple A/B test. This has happened to me time and again. I sent a Wireworld Electra 5 back because I couldn't tell it apart from a stock power cord. I sent a KAS Kaiser XT back because it sounded like crap. I sent a CPCC Top Gun HCF back because while it made everything sound "different", I didn't feel the difference was a positive one. I sent a Siltech SPX-20 back because I thought it sounded too thin and lacked bass response. Finally, I sold my Electraglide Epiphanys because while I thought that they had a lot of good qualities, their sound was ultimately a bit unfocused. 

 What's going on here? These should all be identical, right? The Top Gun was an enormous and very expensive power cable with a lot of great recommendations from mags like TAS and Stereophile. Why wasn't I tricked into thinking it was the best? The Electraglides have bucket loads of glitz and flash, they have all the right stuff, silver/copper hybrid foils, internal ERS treatment, etc. Why weren't they the best? Why do I like my Python CX better than all of them?


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Musicman,

 Does the signal travel through the whole of the conductor or does it travel virtually completely on the surface of the conductor?

 If as stated the signal travels virtually entirely on the surface of the conductor then it would explain the big difference I have experienced between the same type and gauge of wire wrapped in Kapton or Teflon and bare wire - this is not placebo._

 

IIRC, the higher the frequency of the signal, the more it travels towards the surface of the conductor. This would explain why SPC is great for S/Pdif, or component video, etc. which are in the MHz region. On the other hand, low frequencies within the audio band are traveling below the surface, and when a different surface material is used like silver plating, can clash with high frequencies traveling on the surface. This explains why solid OCC copper sounds better than SPC for this type of application, and why you generally do not find super high end SPC interconnects or speaker cables. 

 Dielectrics absolutely make a difference. A bare wire with no insulation will sound better than a Teflon insulated wire, but it's not practical to have bare wire power cables or speaker cables. This is why you see "air tubes" in a lot of high end cables - they are trying to keep the dielectric away from the wire as much as possible. Stealth in particular is big on this with their cables.


----------



## music_man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I’m still a noob at this, I haven’t compared many cables to give any thoughts on the subject, but I must say I don’t know what it is about cables that I find absolutely compelling – the designs, materials, look – fascinating, if I had the funds I’d buy them all_

 

this is exactly how i feel and why they are so dear to me.

 you all make valid points. the points are based on science. however i am not one to say if the points are factual or hearsay. some of the most expensive cables sucked to me and i was totally cool with spending the money.
 in fact i think one of the absolute best cables is $1.15usd a foot! everyone that has tried it said they heard a huge difference over what they were using. i do not know if all this is bs. why such cheap non audio cable would be liked so well and by so many? in fact i did not discover this, bound for sound did years ago!

 i am not one to say if cable differences are fact or fiction. science would mostly refute them. however is there science behind why a rembrandt painting is so sought after? why would someone pay 50 million dollars for something that they simply "like"? what is it's intrinsic value?

 i and many others choose to believe that cables have sonic differences. what ever reason drives that belief may never actually have a thumb placed upon it. at least not in science. what is so wrong with this notion that it gets some others infuriated? there may be valid reasons for debating this if any so wish. however there is no reason to argue it. it is good,clean,honest,moral fun on the behalf of the purchaser. so long as they do not have remorse feeling they were mislead by marketing which is rarely the case. most people are ultimately happy with some cables. that is why there are so many.

 which is better, chocolate or vanilla?

 i know what science has to say about cables i choose to let my emotions decide. isn't most all of modern hi-fi based in emotion. the emotion of a performance comes to mind. you do not go home from a concert and say, honey that was the best scientific symposium i have been to! 


 now to return you to your scheduled brodcast: i ask, apparently vdh are not considered very high end since they are spc(or extruded). they are certainly not priced high end. except for the third which is 100% carbon. that seems intresting to me. i will see if i can demo it this week.

 i find high end cables are either pure copper,pure silver or a combination of both types of conductors. i am not finding any very high end(price wise) spc(or melted alloy,or extruded) cables. i figured there was a reason and it has been answered in more than one post in this thread. i am speaking of speaker cables which was the original topic of this thread. i can see the points made about spc when used in digital cables. again, whether that is based in fact or fiction i do not know. honestly i do not care to know either! i just enjoy the cables! i do find that solid conductors be them silver or copper or a conjugation of both most always outperform spc. which i guess to answer my own question, is why i am not finding any high end spc.

 i have not even mentioned dielectric yet! of course the best of which, most of us agree is air! simple enough that one,eh?

 music_man


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DaveBSC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed you completely dodged my response to the placebo argument. So I will ask it again. Your argument is that all cables are nothing more than the equivalent of a sugar pill. If that is the case, than the biggest, flashiest, most expensive cable with the best marketing will always sound the best. That's how a placebo works. 

 If all cables measure and sound the same, please explain how a cable with the factors of size, flash, price, and a page and a half of marketing materials extolling its virtues can utterly fail a simple A/B test. This has happened to me time and again. I sent a Wireworld Electra 5 back because I couldn't tell it apart from a stock power cord. I sent a KAS Kaiser XT back because it sounded like crap. I sent a CPCC Top Gun HCF back because while it made everything sound "different", I didn't feel the difference was a positive one. I sent a Siltech SPX-20 back because I thought it sounded too thin and lacked bass response. Finally, I sold my Electraglide Epiphanys because while I thought that they had a lot of good qualities, their sound was ultimately a bit unfocused. 

 What's going on here? These should all be identical, right? The Top Gun was an enormous and very expensive power cable with a lot of great recommendations from mags like TAS and Stereophile. Why wasn't I tricked into thinking it was the best? The Electraglides have bucket loads of glitz and flash, they have all the right stuff, silver/copper hybrid foils, internal ERS treatment, etc. Why weren't they the best? Why do I like my Python CX better than all of them?_

 

QFT. Ditto for me with the highly regarded Nordost Heimdall, which clearly causes over-emphasis with mid-range frequencies, which is especially clear in studio recordings of multiple instruments. If I lived in the same country as Nick Charles, I'd send them to him to test, but I don't.


----------



## music_man

i completely forgot that my odin on the wilsons is silver extruded over ofc. well, i guess the ultra high end spc was right under my nose all along. i don't seem to find any other companies doing this though. i bet i am wrong about that. 

 i will have to pull the omega gold off the fabers and try it on the wilsons. i can't switch them fast enough to be sure i notice anything though. in case anyone in the other thread is wondering, i am indeed using the cerro. i am trying to a/b with the omega gold. so far the cerro seems to hold it's own which is amazing.

 music_man


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_QFT. Ditto for me with the highly regarded Nordost Heimdall, which clearly causes over-emphasis with mid-range frequencies, which is especially clear in studio recordings of multiple instruments. If I lived in the same country as Nick Charles, I'd send them to him to test, but I don't._

 

Nordost in general up through the Valhalla doesn't do it for me. Like the entry level Siltechs, I find them to be thin on bass response and in general overly tilted towards the upper mids and highs. I haven't heard the Odin stuff, but if I was going to spend that kind of cash I would be much more likely to go in the direction of Purist Canorus or Siltech Royal Signature.


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## music_man

siltech is solid silver with a gold coating. i imagine that is better than copper with a silver coating. honestly the odin is just like every other spc. it is a shame. i made an expensive mistake there.

 spc is just not to my liking. which is intresting that you two don't like nordost.

 i do not know about silver/gold but i feel high end copper or solid silver to take it in either direction. not copper coated/plated/extruded/alloyed with silver. as to the original title of this thread i feel the spc cables at any level and pricepoint simply bring out the negatives of both copper and silver and not the best of both worlds as was intended. it just failed. i wonder how companies are able to continue to sell this. at the price of odin they certainly could have done a combination of solid silver and solid copper. to me alternating the two achieves what i am talking about to some extent. a lot of the positives of both with little of the negatives. spc simply misses the mark imo. 

 the dream has this technology(silver and copper conductors). however, i find myself still preferring completely copper or completely silver cables. usually very good copper. it might just be the rest of my system. this is in my smaller system. the odin is solidly in place on my reference system unfortunately. it is simply too hard to move the wilsons and monoblocs.

 there are wonderfull high end copper cables,silver cables and a combination of both conductors. i have yet to hear any spc(even at a high end price) that i would call high end. i am not unloading the odin. i live with my mistakes as these types of mistakes are too costly to justify rectification.

 it seems just about everyone that i can tell is versed on this subject agress with me thus far.

 music_man


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## Black Stuart

musicman and DaveBSC,
 why have you completely dodged my staement, very clearly made about the tremendous influence of the signal wire inside an amp/h/amp.

 I will state it again - from actual experience, not theory - try as many different i/cs as you like - they all have to go via the internal signal wire - it's a is a filter that will totally control what you hear.

 If you two are genuinely interested in all aspects that decide how a cable sounds, I can't understand your reluctance to try what I have said.

 Remember it's an easily reversable mod and so easy to do. If Dave and musicman will not try - is there anyone else?

 If you think about it, it stares you in the face - every single component in every piece of equipment is effectively a filter with more or less effect on the audio signal. If the exterior signal wiring differs radically from the internal signal wiring of an amp then you will pass a radically altered signal onto the pot. or attenuator - it is that simple. 

 Likewise the boosted signal that leaves the pot./att. then encounters more signal wiring.

 If as many believe from practice not theory that air is the best dialectric, then it is nec. to use a sheilded dialectric with air space between the sheilds and signal carrying wire.

 Once I did this by using a particular type of low loss sat. cable the difference was clarity in spades, a naturalness that is so enjoyable - try it.

 I have yet to try the ultimate in this rational approach - to remove the cable and chassis plugs by soldering direct to the pot.

 As much as anything it will give a very straight forward answer - does soldering make an audible difference to the signal.

 I doubt if I will keep this last mod since it allows only one piece of equipment to be connnected and with vinyl/CDP/radio and cassette mediums that's not on BUT it will give me an answer about solder/no solder.


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_siltech is solid silver with a gold coating_

 

Not exactly. The entire run of silver is not plated with gold in the sense of a SPC wire. You can read Siltech's literature if you are interested, but Siltech's argument is that silver, or at least the silver they use, has a small amount of crystalline boundaries compared to OFHC, but more than single crystal, OCC copper, and they use small amounts of gold to "fill in" these boundaries and smooth out the sound. 

 However they do it, it does work, as at least the mid to high end G6 and G7 cables are very smooth and enjoyable to listen to. The flagship Royal Signatures are insanely expensive, and I'm not really sure they are better than less expensive cables like Stealth's new Sakra or Purist Canorus, but they are good. I don't have any experience with Gabi van der Kley's Crystal Cables, but I've heard good things and would like to try them. She has pretty much the opposite approach of her husband at Siltech. His background is pure engineering, hers is music. One positive, if you hate huge, ultra stiff Virtual Dynamics style cables, Crystals are about as thin and flexible as you can buy.


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## music_man

either of the van der kley's cables sound intresting.

 i saw a very good argument about silver vs. copper from aj van den hul. he says silver is no better than copper for audio. the issue is that silver is handled much better at the factory because it is much more expensive and pulled slower. that is what makes silver better. copper is left sitting to oxidize etc. he states. i suppose he is using the silver to fill voids as well then? i don't know.

 black stuart, i am not at all against internal rewring. in fact it sounds like a great idea. i just don't want to do it the patrick82 way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 when i have time i have no problem doing it.

 music_man


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## qusp

SPC (its skin effect) should be and is IMO meaningless at audio frequencies. but i'm with everyone else here it seems. i've just never used any SPC i've liked, I occasionally use it for large gauge power wires, but never in the audio signal path analogue OR digital. I much prefer pure metals or actually I personally find amorphous alloys and carbon nanotubes intriguing. I dont know that I would say gabi is the opposite, crystal cables are pretty stupidly hi tech. most are made from high purity electrum with some pretty seriously modern dielectrics and construction to keep it flexy and light (well maybe not reference) its all coax too which is pretty sound. havent trued the silltec stuff.


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## Rdr. Seraphim

I've used some high-end Cardas ICs and speaker cables (Golden Reference) as well as top-tier Harmonic Technologies (Magic Link II and Pro 9 Reference) to very wonderful effect. I preferred the HT to the Cardas. Cardas isn't clear on what copper he uses in the Golden Reference. All I can say is that it provides detail with lots of "warmth," if you like that kind of a presentation. 

 Interestingly, the HT Magic Link II's use a 60/40 mix of OCC Cu and AG. It's an interesting approach, but seems to really do the trick for me.

 I've used some Ag plated Cu (see Signal Cable on Audiogo) terminated with some rather nice ETI Silver Bullets, but found it rather "dull" and much less detailed.


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Re internal wiring, Bobby Palkovic owner of Merlin Music recommends Cardas (GR and Clear), partly, I suspect due to the fact that he uses Cardas inside his TSM and VSM loudspeakers.


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## music_man

i like the cardas golden reference. it is some type of copper that is stranded. of course tara and aq would say it is no good because it is stranded. at least it is pure copper, i like that. it is just a simple straight foward copper cable. even if it does subscribe to the "golden ratio".

 vdh has a hybrid alloy. it is copper,silver and zinc coated with silver and also partially coated with carbon. other than hearing it i have no idea if that would sound good or not.
 zinc does not seem like it would sound very good to me but i have no idea.

 it seems i prefer very high grade copper most of the time. in digital a combination silver/copper(not spc) seems to work nicely. also silver/copper works good for me in balanced ic's sometimes. it has never hit home with me in speaker cables as of yet.

 i wish siltech and crystal would say more than the very little they do about their cables. i understand it involves "trade secrets" but i'd at least like to know what exactly all that money would be going towards.

 luckily they are represented in the usa by a company i have delt with in the past. so maybe i can hear them which is all that really matters.

 overall i just enjoy collecting cables as of late whatever they are. i consider it a collection i enjoy more so than how they may perfrom sonically. keeping that in mind i am rarely disappointed. since honestly one can reach sonic bliss by visiting home depot it seems(per another thread here).

 music_man


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_either of the van der kley's cables sound intresting.

 i saw a very good argument about silver vs. copper from aj van den hul. he says silver is no better than copper for audio. the issue is that silver is handled much better at the factory because it is much more expensive and pulled slower. that is what makes silver better. copper is left sitting to oxidize etc. he states. i suppose he is using the silver to fill voids as well then? i don't know.

 black stuart, i am not at all against internal rewring. in fact it sounds like a great idea. i just don't want to do it the patrick82 way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 when i have time i have no problem doing it.

 music_man_

 

Silver is less resistive than copper as a conductor, which is one argument for using it. I don't buy the argument though that copper is somehow "mistreated" or whatever, and there's a lot of generalization there. There are many grades of copper, from the lowest electrolytic tough pitch that's full of oxygen and impurities to the highest Ohno Continuous Cast and 8N coppers. Making pure, single grain OCC copper is definitely not cheap or easy, and after all of the work that goes in to keeping oxygen out during the casting, I doubt its "left sitting" to oxidize after the rods have been created.

 Silver has its own grades, and low purity stuff used to make cheap silver cables can sound bright, etched and harsh. OCC silver in considered the best, although I've heard differing opinions on whether it actually exists. According to Paul at PS, it doesn't.

 If someone wants to rewire my amp with tiny lengths of Indra that would be great. I'm not comfortable doing it myself, voiding the warranty, and risking blowing something up.


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i like the cardas golden reference. it is some type of copper that is stranded. of course tara and aq would say it is no good because it is stranded. at least it is pure copper, i like that.

 music_man_

 

Cardas cables are a Litz design, not stranded. A Litz cable still uses lots of very small conductors instead of a big round or rectangular solid core conductor, but each individual conductor has its own insulation, so the signal does not jump between strands which is considered the big problem with a regular stranded wire. Litz cables are pretty unusual in the cable industry. Cardas and Nirvana use them, and maybe a few others that I can't think of, but that's about it. Litz is a _massive_ PITA to DIY with, because each strand has to be stripped individually. 

 Once I'm happy with a particular setup, I like to do a lot of experimenting with different cables to see what additional performance I can bring out. Over the years of trying different cables I've found that there are a few companies whose products I tend to like a lot across the board - mainly Purist and Synergistic, and other companies with more specific models that I like, such as the Acoustic Zen Absolute and Stealth Indra interconnects, higher end Siltech Classic series, and Shunyata's new CX power cords. 

 Some cables that I would like to try are the new Audio Magic liquid air models, the Crystal Reference and Ultra series, the top of the line Stereovox cables, and the 6 Sons Audio Golden Eagle cables. From what I've heard from some Windigo owners, the Golden Eagles could be absolutely amazing.


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## IPodPJ

You guys do realize for the price you spend on these cables you could have world class components.


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## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys do realize for the price you spend on these cables you could have world class components._

 

This is why I make my own. Just ordered a some new cans. Have a little money left over for gear like that.


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## music_man

i do have world class components by most peoples standards i figure. i am just putting the icing on the cake. there are many flavors of icing and it is the final touch. so you never really know if you had the last say. that is why i do not stop trying new cables at every chance i get!

 i don't see how anyone can say that these super technology packed cables sound no better than a radioshack cable. even a good hdmi cable and power cord makes your plasma look much better imho. there may not be an explanation for why they work but what is in them is no secret usually. they use the finest materials and workmanship which if nothing else is what justifies there cost. all i can say is "the proof is in the pudding". that is how i feel about it.

 indeed, some very cheap cables sound amazingly good and many folks would stop right there. i am like the guy that keeps trying to get one more hp out of a 1200hp daily driver. it matters to me.

 guys, do you feel the best verifiable silver sounds better than occ or 8n copper, especially when the copper is hand polished like aq does? aq charges a lot more for their polished silver cables. the wel signature puts them amongst the highest priced cables now. i still prefer their best copper offerings. i think aq and tara make great copper.

 music_man


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys do realize for the price you spend on these cables you could have world class components._

 

Right now I'm working on my new headphone setup. I have the STAX O2 Mk1s, and as far as I'm concerned, there's nowhere higher to go. Same with the KGSS amp. If you want a commercially available solid state electrostatic headamp, that's as good as it gets right now. The last thing I need to add is a world class DAC worthy of these two, and I'm not going to sacrifice there so I can buy a more expensive interconnect or power cord. 

 At the same time, I'm not going to limit the capabilities of the KGSS or DAC by using stock AC cords straight into a wall outlet, or by using $10 XLR cables.


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## music_man

each strand in the cardas is enamled and right next to each other? i guess there is not enough voltage there to charge the enamel. other companies use a conductive dielectric. this is why i made the thread "cables are a bunch of tradeoffs". everyone designs a cable differently. that is how they all compete for us to buy theirs. which one works best i do not look to with any prejudice. may the best cable....end up in my system!

 music_man


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys do realize for the price you spend on these cables you could have world class components._

 

Some of us (not me) has a few of them too


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## Rdr. Seraphim

I was delighted by the difference my Harmonic Technology Magic Link II IC's made with the lil' $99 µDAC. In fact it was a revelation, literally night and day, because much of the music was previously obscured, veiled and just plain missing. With the HT's in place, instruments that could NOT be heard were fully revealed. 

 (NOTE: Of course the HT's are about $1K new, so we're talking about a disproportionate comparison. Conversely, it speaks wonders about what the lil' µDAC is capable of!) 

 Some of my own DIY weavings have been pretty darn good, including some from Home Depot and the Rat Shack. However, I have not been able to reproduce the SQ in any of my DIY projects the equivalent of the top tier manufactures, at least to my personal satisfaction.

 Cables should not hinder nor hide the music, regardless of cost. For me, it has taken a lot of experimentation to find the icing that makes the cake. I've heard cheap cables sound pretty good in high-end systems. And I've heard the same system with top tier cables sound much better. 

 Sadly (for my pocketbook), I've never heard a less expensive cable enable top tier sound in a top tier system. In other words, in a top tier system, cables can be the limiting factor in attaining top tier sound quality.


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is silver coated copper wire the best both copper and silver have to offer or the worst of both? or does it just depend on the particular cable?

 to be honest all my ic's are pure silver and my speaker and headphone wires are pure copper. i think that was probably a better way of achieving the balance. i hope i was right!

 thanks,
 music_man_

 

Music_man, I guess I fall closer to your flavor of cables than not. I definitely am an all Cu fan on the speaker cable side. I've settled on the hybrid Cu/Ag hybrid IC in the HTs, finding that the all copper Cardas GR's just to be too warm, syrupy and lush. The 60/40 combination in the HT's hit the sweet spot in my system. 

 I've also heard the HT Photon Cables in my friend's system and they are well, "clear." Balance and presentation is almost beyond reproach. These pretty much eliminate any vestige of traditional cable coloration as it relates to materials purity, at least for ICs. I believe HT's Photon cables may be a good match between a high quality DAC and headphone amp. Hmm...


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## music_man

i just wonder about the vdh hybrid and no one ever really commented on them. 
 "High purity dense Silver coated high purity Matched Crystal OFC + FUSION TECHNOLOGY: amorphous Cu/Zn/Ag alloy + HYBRID: Linear Structured Carbon ® saturated layer(s)"

 custom cable. please do not answer this since you sell them.
 they are cheap, worth a try? there has to be some catch that this is so inexpensive.

 edit: maybe i can asnwer my own question. it seems speaker cables are not really vdh's area of intrest. there decent speaker cables are about $50usd a meter and range from $10usd a meter to $450usd a meter. on the other hand they make interconnects that are $10,500usd a meter! i think that might answer the question. they employ much fancier stuff than their speaker cables(platinum) for instance. also they are so scarce i'd be ordering them from overseas. there must be a reason.

 thanks,
 music_man


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *music_man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_edit: maybe i can asnwer my own question. it seems speaker cables are not really vdh's area of intrest. there decent speaker cables are about $50usd a meter and range from $10usd a meter to $450usd a meter. on the other hand they make interconnects that are $10,500usd a meter! i think that might answer the question. they employ much fancier stuff than their speaker cables(platinum) for instance. also they are so scarce i'd be ordering them from overseas. there must be a reason.

 thanks,
 music_man_

 

You see that with a lot of cable companies, some just choose to not seriously compete in all areas. Kimber for example seems to have no real interest in power cords. The Palladians haven't changed in ages and aren't really competitive with any of the top power cords.


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## music_man

i have read a few intresting things from reliable sources. kimber kable apparently makes $8,000+ stranded cables. as do a few other companies.

 strand jumping and skin effect should not be issues at audio frequencies. however there seems to be a difference many people can hear between a stranded and a solid cable.

 spc was originally developed to provide anticorrosive properties to copper. again, it should not make a sonic difference being that there is negligable skin effect at audio frequencies. of course many audiophiles disagree. their argument is that the lower frequencies ride on the copper and the higher frequencies ride on the silver. silver tends to have less desireable effects at higher frequencies many say. that is why spc is less desireable it seems.

 this is what i have read all over the internet.
 so i don't know what to make of it. if soemone can hear the differences then i do not disbelieve them. for one thing i think i can.

 edit: actually all of this has already been mentioned in this thread i see. i'll leave it up to everyones ears!


 music_man


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## Black Stuart

Just an update on my internal wiring and i/cs.

 I've still only put about 60/70 hours on the internal wiring and about 80/90 hours on the incoming i/cs.

 I still can't get over how enjoyable it is to switch on, wait a half hour and then hit the play switch on the CDP - the immmediate involvement, the dynamics and I should have got used to what REAL bass is all about.

 I've had the Mundorf silver/gold wire in my posession for over two weeks now but have no real inclination to change out the silver/plated copper - because the sound is so good.

 I repeat again I don't care what wire 'floats your boat' - you cannot hear what it really sounds like without using an air dialectric, sheilded wire inside your amp.

 I bought a pair of I/cs using Furutech u-P2.1 balanced wire with CMC Red Copper plugs - silver/plated stranded 4N copper - very nice precise sound, lots of space but compared to my air dialectric sat. cables - no air, no reall dynamics and certainly not organic. This wire costs over $42 per metre and is the best commercial sound I have heard but no comparison.

 Why is it that all the commercial companies hav'nt found out how to uprate their equipment by using air dialectric signal wiring inside their amps. This is not an expensive move to make - does make you wonder though - or maybe the've all been programmed at college - wire does'nt make a difference.

 There is a such a big difference between wrapped wire and bare wire that I from real world experiments I am prepared to say that the majority of the signal is carried at or near the surface of the conductor - nothing else can explain this - take the theory and shove it - it does'nt hold up in practice.


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## mark_h

N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Black Stuart

mark_h,
 I've lost count of the number of times that so many on all forums bandy the word 'objective' about.

 The observer is always a part of the experiment, ergo 'subjective'.

 So what is your point - do you actually experiment with cables yourself - you don't say, so no one knows where your coming from, what your experience is, do come back on this.

 I decided to carry out two experiments at once (1) replacing the SPC with the 6N silver wire and to use it unsheilded.

 I've put in a good few hours with this wire in unsheilded form and whilst it is improving and micro detail especially on voices is a slight improvement on the SPC, it just does'nt have the impact, the organic emotion and life of the SPC.

 So now I have to try it in sheilded form.

 What has been rubber stamped is the control that the amp wiring has over the sound as a whole. I have to state again forget about auditioning i/cs until you have this sorted - no way am I hearing SPC i/cs, which is what I have continued to use - all very interesting.


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