# Can I believe my ears?  Help me with your impressions



## Riboge

I ran across an offer to try the Dakiom Feedback Stabilizer Fm 203 for $59 for one month trial if I(one) wrote a brief review. It is a quite small passive box installed between amp and ear/headphones about which its website (wwww.dakiom.com) says:





> DakiOm technology takes sound quality to a higher level by improving the performance and stability of electronics employing Negative Feedback (NFB). NFB is presently used in more than 90% of consumer players and amplifiers.
> 
> NFB design techniques help audio circuitry deliver their accuracy and power in a reliable, cost effective manner. However, NFB circuits are also prone to oscillation and instability during transient conditions. Under dynamic conditions, such as playing music, these circuits can slip into a positive feedback condition causing oscillations.
> 
> ...


I am not competent to evaluate these ideas. I decided to try out the unit and experienced an enlargement of the soundstage, a great enhancement of depth and hence three-dimensionality, an enhancement of bass and a greater sense of the solidity and separation of instruments. This is most apparent with larger groups of performers, e.g., symphonies, choruses, etc, but is happening with all inputs.

 This all is very hard to believe for the price and for the reasons given but it seems to be so. I know many of you are more acute listeners, especially those with younger auditory organs, so I ask that some few of you try this out and report what you hear. There is no ultimate cost if you return it, while If I'm hearing right there is a lot to be gained for a little investment if you concur about the improvement of sq.

 The setup I was listening to is: iHP-120 via glass optical to micro DAC to RS Hornet via RnB Diamond Reference IC then to Dakiom Fm203 and on to UE10pro earphones.


----------



## TheSloth

I seriously doubt the logic behind this, but what the heck, I'll give it a go. I can always return it.


----------



## TheSloth

Regarding your qualification to judge, you have a very revealing system indeed. Especially with the UE-10 which many consider to be the most accurate and neutral headphone in existence.


----------



## MikeW

Was browsing that site, make sure you look at the *special* they have for headphone version, agree to submit a review with 45 days and you can get it for 59$. http://www.dakiom.com/special_offer.htm hmm im tempted myself, they sure seem confident in their product.


----------



## PeeeMeS

Pulled the trigger on it, I hope it ships soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Can't wait to see if it meets the claims


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_Was browsing that site, make sure you look at the *special* they have for headphone version, agree to submit a review with 45 days and you can get it for 59$. http://www.dakiom.com/special_offer.htm hmm im tempted myself, they sure seem confident in their product._

 

Brilliant psychological marketing! That gives the customer an incentive to be satisfied, offering a cash payout for positive placebo; and it guarantees that all reviews will be positive! (Neutral or negative reviews would be tendered as returns for a refund, not a written review for a discount.) I take my hat off to this organization. This is a work of propaganda genius. I'm glad they aren't working for the government!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## MikeW

Lol - must you always be so... "Close minded" Mr. Bigshot. I can understand the skeptisim, I don't beleive alot of it either, but I also try to keep an open mind and not shoot things down immediatly. It comes off really sarcastic and annoying on your part too. 

 edit: for the record I dident order one, and don't plan to either.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Brilliant psychological marketing! That gives the customer an incentive to be satisfied, offering a cash payout for positive placebo; and it guarantees that all reviews will be positive! (Neutral or negative reviews would be tendered as returns for a refund, not a written review for a discount.) I take my hat off to this organization. This is a work of propaganda genius. I'm glad they aren't working for the government!

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_Was browsing that site, make sure you look at the *special* they have for headphone version, agree to submit a review with 45 days and you can get it for 59$. http://www.dakiom.com/special_offer.htm hmm im tempted myself, they sure seem confident in their product._

 

 Interesting. However, I would only recommend such a trial for those extremely strong-willed individuals who are capable of resisting the psychological effects of this marketing, and who aren't easily persuaded by propaganda. There are probably only a select few who can resist such overwhelming forces.


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Brilliant psychological marketing! That gives the customer an incentive to be satisfied, offering a cash payout for positive placebo; and it guarantees that all reviews will be positive! (Neutral or negative reviews would be tendered as returns for a refund, not a written review for a discount.) I take my hat off to this organization. This is a work of propaganda genius. I'm glad they aren't working for the government!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Your name is very fitting. Why do you feel the need to be such a troll and ruin others' threads? Are you some sort of self-appointed vigalante bent on the protection of society from things you don't believe or understand due to your narrow minded "objectivism"? Yeesh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, the idea seems pretty fairly grounded in reality, and with the money-back offer I may give it a shot sometime. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## skullguise

I took advantage of the offer they did, with the first series line and speaker levels. My review may still be on the web site.

 My impressions were mixed, leaning to negative. It may have been a problem with capacitance and two different mod'd CD players I had, but the sound with the Dakiom's in was worse than with it out.

 Picture a round, soft pillow. Fluffly in the middle, tapering off around the edge. This was the sound without Dakiom. Put them in, and it was like I pushed the middle of the pillow in, forcing the edges out. The whole midrange sucked out, putting it FAR back and not very well balanced. The edges of the pillow, representing the soundstage, swelled up. The soundstage seemed larger for the outer edges. Bass was improved, but was a little looser even though deeper.

 Bottom line, in my system, they did not mate well. I ended up keeping them, and attached them to my Panasonic DVD player in my video system. I don't use the speaker level unit at all, even though its effects weren't as bad as the line levels.

 But hats off to Mr. Dao, he kept in good touch with me, suggested different ideas to see if we could get them to work, and printed my so-so review word for word. In the end, I thought his products were good but only in the right system (in my video system, they did more good than harm). And for the price, they were very nice.

 Caveat: I have not heard the series two.....


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_ http://www.dakiom.com/special_offer.htm_

 

"You agree to submit a product review of at least 50 words which DakiOm has the right to use without restrictions." 





 Me no like.


----------



## Riboge

Thanks for the responses so far. I look forward to the impressions of those who said they will try it out. I agree about the effectiveness of the marketing ploy, especially since it is actually advantageous to the buyer as well. Dakiom has been very responsive to questions and by making suggestions--also top notch marketing good for the customer. I continue to enjoy the results of using their device. I certainly do not find the middle emptied out or anything like that. I would expect that with different systems YMMV, but let's see.


----------



## Beauregard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_...I can understand the skeptisim, I don't beleive alot of it either, but I also try to keep an open mind and not shoot things down immediatly. ..._

 

Someone a lot smarter than I am once said something like, "An open mind is generally a good thing. But if overdone, it can get a bit drafty up there."


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I'm not talking about the product here... that's totally irrelevant. I'm talking about the marketing strategy._

 

This thread is about the product, not the marketing. You're just trolling, stop already.

 See ya (I hope).


 Anyway, I was looking on Audiogon and alot of people seemed to have agreed with Skullguise, I suppose it's pretty dependant on the amp's design and uses of feedback.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_
 Anyway, I was looking on Audiogon and alot of people seemed to have agreed with Skullguise, I suppose it's pretty dependant on the amp's design and uses of feedback._

 

I went to audiogon to check and must say I found something different. Some found what Skullguise did, but most were positive to very positive about their Dakioms. There were a number who preferred some other enhancing product I'm unfamiliar with. It was quite clear that the result varied from system to system depending on the nature of the components. The other thing to keep in mind is that there are Dakiom units for each stage of the chain from source to amp to speakers. I have tried only the latest in the second generation fm203 (203 instead of 103) that goes just after the amp and before the headphones. Dakiom recommends, of course, units at all stages. Differences in results may also be due to how many and which stages are supplemented with units.
 I want to add that I don't want or mean to be a cheerleader for Dakiom and have no affiliation with them.


----------



## SemperFidelity

It may very well be satisfactory, but I really can't buy the explanation. The problems they describe with negative feedback without getting too picky about their description, would be the work of a fairly poor designer. 

 But, it's an inexpensive thing to try, and, as has been said before, if it sounds good, it is good. And it wouldn't be the first thing in audio that works without a solid explanation. (Yet).


----------



## AdamWill

Did you test in in such a way as to eliminate psychological effects such as placebo? If not, then no, you can't believe your ears, because your brain may be getting in the signal path.


----------



## PeeeMeS

If they made a breakthrough in design, they would not want to be specific on what exactly is happening in order to improve the sound. I wouldn't blame them. In fact, if they detailed exactly what was happening, I would not buy from them as I can imagine those pesky DIYers would be all over it and a new improved version would be floating around on head-fi in a matter of weeks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If it causes such a placebo effect that I can swear it's night and day difference without A/Bing, then it's worth the 59$. If it sounds like I may need to A/B in order to tell the difference, it prob isn't worth the $. That's my approach. 


 A lot of our hearing is psychological, I'm suprised a lot of Head-Fi'ers don't concentrate on this aspect. A person eating a healthy diet, exercising, getting good sleep, having a positive attitude and living in a reduced stress environment will hear better sound than if he or she was eating junk food, potatocoaching, lacking sleep, and stressed. (Not to mention living healthy also allows the body to repair daily hearing damage and will allow your ears to function optimally) Did the gear change? No. Did the sound change? No. Fact is, the most amazing high tech equipment responsible for hi-fi sound is the human body. You can buy the most expensive system out there, but a happy, healthy person is going to get better sound out of his/her iPod iBuds if Mr. Orpheus owner is struggling to pay bills and stressing out. Just like how you can have the most expensive microphone, but singing offtune will net crappy sound!


----------



## edstrelow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AdamWill* 
_Did you test in in such a way as to eliminate psychological effects such as placebo? If not, then no, you can't believe your ears, because your brain may be getting in the signal path. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 There are many fallacies in this argument, including the fact that it is quite hard to carry out sensitive pyshological tesing to detect small perceptual differences. As a corollary, null results, i.e. no difference between test and control can be easily obtained - just do a crummy experiment. 

 Most debunkers in this field rely on a few of these results without any appreciation that these studies may not be sensitive or accurate enough to work in the first place. In science such results have almost no weight.

 However of more interest to me is that when you discount your own perceptual experince you would seem to have no way of determining if an item of equipment is right for you.

 So how do you eliminate psychological effects when you listen to new equipment? 

 Do you buy things, not based on how they sound to you? 

 What then do you use to judge sound, some theories about what should sound good, or somebody else's reviews, rather than what sounds good to you? 

 If I am going to spend money, first and foremost it had better sound good to me! In a marginal situation I will look to the opinions of others and possibly some theory as to why equipment x is better than y. But if I have to do this, I am already at a place where I am not likely to buy.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PeeeMeS* 
_A lot of our hearing is psychological, I'm suprised a lot of Head-Fi'ers don't concentrate on this aspect. A person eating a healthy diet, exercising, getting good sleep, having a positive attitude and living in a reduced stress environment will hear better sound than if he or she was eating junk food, potatocoaching, lacking sleep, and stressed. (Not to mention living healthy also allows the body to repair daily hearing damage and will allow your ears to function optimally) Did the gear change? No. Did the sound change? No. Fact is, the most amazing high tech equipment responsible for hi-fi sound is the human body. You can buy the most expensive system out there, but a happy, healthy person is going to get better sound out of his/her iPod iBuds if Mr. Orpheus owner is struggling to pay bills and stressing out._

 

 With all due respect, I think this is absurd, but then maybe you overstate your point for effect? My ipod never sounds as good as my top end rig, even when I have "lots of sleep, etc." when I listen to my ipod and I'm "stressed" when I listen to my top end rig. Yes, environmental influences may have some influence on what we hear or how we percieve certain sounds, but you have grossly exaggerated the effect. The implication of your arugment seems to be that all CD players, amps, etc. may, in fact, sound the same, or may be impossible to differentiate with any consistency, because the environmental influences predominate to such an extent that the differences between types of equipment are almost completely obscured. Anyone who has listend to various types of audio equipment for a significant length of time knows that this is simply not the case. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.


----------



## Riboge

I asked that some others try out the Dakiom device and some said they would but none have reported here yet. Anyone care to comment FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (e.g., rather than theoretical bias)?

 Since I started the thread I got a second Dakiom device used between source and amp to supplement the one between amp and headphones. It appears to me to make a smaller but positive difference to the differentiation of instruments and spatial reality of the presentation.


----------



## PeeeMeS

I recieved the Dakiom around 3 weeks ago but I didn't want to make a post until I was able to audition it with more gear than I had access to at the time...
 Here are my impressions after 3 weeks of use:

 Phones used:
 UE-10 Pros
 AKG K1000
 AKG K701


 Amplifier:
 Max PPA

 Source:
 Piccolo DAC, 3G iPod


 It definitely alters the sound. I can pass single blind tests(depending on the song) Soundstage has changed(it hasn't expanded in every direction) and I can pinpoint instruments better. The thing that really stands out is the bass. There's no denying the bass is "tighter" and sounds different. While it's not a huge difference, it is there.

 With the K1000s, it tames the fatiguing highs. I passed single blind test on this one as well(depending on song)

 The soundstage enchancment is bigger in Binaural tracks. Binaural tracks are more real, I can pinpoint things with more precision. This is prevalent in every setup I tried. ***Did not do single blind test for this one***

 So what's my setup now? I'm using the DakiOm over not using it. For $50, this thing is quite a bargain. The effect is not huge, but it's there.


----------



## Riboge

Thanks, Peeemes, it seems you heard roughly what I did, given variables of sources, other equipment, etc. I hope there will be comments from others as well.

 I wonder if I can get you to now try the R203 which deals with the analog output from the source or DAC on the way to the amplifier. I am less sure of the improvement from adding this to the effect of the Fm203. There may be some greater differentiation of instruments, fullness with tightness of bass and broader soundstage. It is surely less of a change than adding the Fm203 alone. It costs a refundable $99 for this one, so less of a bargain but still worth it if it delivers. It does make a subtle change but I'm having more trouble defining it.


----------



## braillediver

"If they made a breakthrough in design, they would not want to be specific on what exactly is happening in order to improve the sound."

 Isn't that always the case when you can't rationally explain your claims? There's always some reason they can't tell you.


 Mitch


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* 
_"If they made a breakthrough in design, they would not want to be specific on what exactly is happening in order to improve the sound."

 Isn't that always the case when you can't rationally explain your claims? There's always some reason they can't tell you.
 Mitch_

 

Both of these views are rationalizations based on nothing but foregone conclusions. There is no substitute for actually listening before offering an opinion that is useful. Anything is hypothetically possible. So what? Surely not being able to explain a phenomenon does not mean it isn't so. Neither can one read the mind of a manufacturer about why he does or does not present the underlying process and theory for what his product does. He may not know himself or he may think what has been presented does explain it, for all we know.


----------



## PeeeMeS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Thanks, Peeemes, it seems you heard roughly what I did, given variables of sources, other equipment, etc. I hope there will be comments from others as well.

 I wonder if I can get you to now try the R203 which deals with the analog output from the source or DAC on the way to the amplifier. I am less sure of the improvement from adding this to the effect of the Fm203. There may be some greater differentiation of instruments, fullness with tightness of bass and broader soundstage. It is surely less of a change than adding the Fm203 alone. It costs a refundable $99 for this one, so less of a bargain but still worth it if it delivers. It does make a subtle change but I'm having more trouble defining it._

 

I looked at the installation instructions for the R203 and currently I don't have the equipment to take advanage of it. I don't have a source that outputs to L/R RCA


----------



## TheSloth

I found no benefit with this device. Firstly, the box says 'impedence 16 - 160 ohm' so that already rules out a lot of headphones. I used my 650's anyway, and found them to be muddied in the bass and more rolled off on the top. Note that for all of their other installations they tell you to remove all of your high end interconnect cables and replace them with standard copper strand... Not a great start. But anyway it was basically like running my equinox cable through a stock cable and removing all it's benefit.

 It also seemed to introduce some crosstalk, though I can't prove it. I'd love to see that measured, because for example I noticed harmonics from instruments on the right side only were suddenly slightly noticeable on the left side where they weren't before. Not in a pleasing way at all, more of a 'how on earth did that get over there'? kind of way. And no that's not because it was 'revealing'.

 Anyway, I left it too long to get the refund, so for the interest of science, how does one remove potting epoxy? I know there is a way to do it, and I want to know what's inside.

 On the technical side, there is almost nothing to back up the reasoning behind why this does what it does, but from my impressions what bothered me more was not why it does, but indeed what it does, which was nothing 'hi-fi'. It's a little box of colouration, and that might sound very nice in some systems, but the idea that it is making your amplifier 'more accurate' to me is unsubstantiated. Also, I used my 'convertable' for testing, using many different modules to try to simulate different levels and qualities of electronics. Negative feedback must be more of an issue with some of these modules than others by design, however the little box did exactly the same thing to the sound of each one.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheSloth* 
_I found no benefit with this device. Firstly, the box says 'impedence 16 - 160 ohm' so that already rules out a lot of headphones. I used my 650's anyway, and found them to be muddied in the bass and more rolled off on the top._

 

I thank TheSloth for his efforts and comments. This is truly intriquing. I have the impression I would hear roughly what he does on his system and yet PeeeMes and I experienced something quite opposite on our own. This inconsistency reflects that of comments on other forums. It would seem to have to do with the other components in the system. One question I have from his writeup is whether TheSloth tried any earphones/headphones clearly within the range of impedence specified on the Dakiom unit. 

 One thing I differ on is his interpretation of the Dakiom website about interconnects. I thing they said special interconnects are unnecessary and make little difference in comparison with more ordinary connections when using the Dakiom units, not that they *should* be removed and replaced by the lowest common denominator.


----------



## TheSloth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_I thank TheSloth for his efforts and comments. This is truly intriquing. I have the impression I would hear roughly what he does on his system and yet PeeeMes and I experienced something quite opposite on our own. This inconsistency reflects that of comments on other forums. It would seem to have to do with the other components in the system. One question I have from his writeup is whether TheSloth tried any earphones/headphones clearly within the range of impedence specified on the Dakiom unit. 

 One thing I differ on is his interpretation of the Dakiom website about interconnects. I thing they said special interconnects are unnecessary and make little difference in comparison with more ordinary connections when using the Dakiom units, not that they *should* be removed and replaced by the lowest common denominator._

 

I did recently try out my 40ohm AT-900LTD's and again found the same issues. But then I don't really like that headphone in the first place and find it so far from neutral that trying to detect further colouration is almost impossible to my ears.


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_I thank TheSloth for his efforts and comments. This is truly intriquing. I have the impression I would hear roughly what he does on his system and yet PeeeMes and I experienced something quite opposite on our own. This inconsistency reflects that of comments on other forums. It would seem to have to do with the other components in the system. One question I have from his writeup is whether TheSloth tried any earphones/headphones clearly within the range of impedence specified on the Dakiom unit. 

 One thing I differ on is his interpretation of the Dakiom website about interconnects. I thing they said special interconnects are unnecessary and make little difference in comparison with more ordinary connections when using the Dakiom units, not that they *should* be removed and replaced by the lowest common denominator._

 

That pretty much agree's with Sloth's findings. It seems like it's just coloring the sound, not actually doing anything to improve the signal, and it's a synergy thing as to if it will actually sound good in your system or not.


----------



## PeeeMeS

I will be getting access to a whole new slew of equipment as well as 2 other people's ears

 I will report my findings



 BTW: Very interesting UE-10s had an improve since they are below the 16 Ohm minimum recommendation


----------



## Beauregard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheSloth* 
_... Anyway, I left it too long to get the refund, so for the interest of science, how does one remove potting epoxy? I know there is a way to do it, and I want to know what's inside. ..._

 

I hope you figure it out. It's been a while since there's been a "what's buried in the putty" expose in audiodom.


----------



## AsuAmo76

Remember O'Henry hero who used to sell sand to put into lamps to keep the oil from exploding? And as housewives were happy knowing their oil lamps are safe, we all can be happy knowing our amps are safe from oscillating


----------



## Dan Millheim

Well, this thread got me out of lurking. I just had to chime in on the Dakiom Fm203. So here goes folks...my first post as a newbie, woohoo!

 For the past half a year I have been wandering this new road on a quest for audiophile bliss with one hand protecting my wallet and the other feeling my way along the varied possibilities of all manner of equipment and tweaks.

 Since I am a professional musician (20 years) as well as a budding audiophile (6 months), I wanted to make the right choices (for me) the first trip around rather then go the buy/try and then sell route. I knew a home based audiophile headphone set up would be wonderful, but come at too high a price. FYI: I am a bit fanatical in my obsessions so I chose them wisely, ha. Besides, I hate to compromise on excellence even in my hobbies.

 The path I chose was to build the best portable audiophile rig I could afford. I figured that buying the best in this niche was more attainable for me and the fact that my little audio system could go anywhere, made any expense much more practical. 

 For months I poured over all of the information I could uncover here and I am grateful for the men and women who have logged many, many miles on this mythical path. I have learned so much and I appreciate you.

 So, now after all my research, I am really happy with my Bose System haaaaaaa just kidding.

 OK, here is what I put together, and if I do say so myself, it's a killer rig for a newbie...well, a newbie that researches and lurks and learns from you all!

 30 Gig. 5th gen video iPod/Lossless ( In a cool black alum. case)-> SR-71-> Turbo IV dock->7.5" Earcandy mini/mini 90's->Dakiom Fm203-> UE-7's/tweaked at UE (for portable and professional monitoring use), and while at home...drum roll please... my soon too arrive, Senn. HD-650's with Black Dragon 3.5 connect. I can't wait for these cans!

 This is one s-w-e-e-t little rig!

 Anyway, now to the topic at hand. I found Dakiom all by my lonesome one night while...ehm...doing some audio homework online. I took the plunge ASAP and had the Fm203 in 24 hours (that was impressive in itself). I run the Fm 203 box (the size of a little box of matches) out of the headphone jack of my SR-71 and stack it on the side of my gear "sandwich" inside the same elastic band that holds my amp and pod together. It makes an impressive addition in looks alone but we all know that means nothing, right?

 While I do not feel qualified yet to go into all the sonic adjectives audiophiles are so famous for, I will say that for me, this little devise does everything it claims to do. My SR-71 sound even better (is this possible)? More expansive, tighter bass blah...blah.... BUT here is what really amazed me. Listening fatigue on my UE- IEM's is a thing of the past. I am not talking about volume fatigue, I am talking about sonic fatigue. In short, I am a big fan and it took my listening experience to a whole new level of quality AND comfort.

 I would strongly recommend this product and company. They are great to talk with and very passionate about their technology.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_The implication of your arugment seems to be that all CD players, amps, etc. may, in fact, sound the same, or may be impossible to differentiate with any consistency, because the environmental influences predominate to such an extent that the differences between types of equipment are almost completely obscured. Anyone who has listend to various types of audio equipment for a significant length of time knows that this is simply not the case._

 

I've listened to various types of audio equipment for significant lengths of time, and most good quality amps and CD players sound pretty much the same to me.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I've listened to various types of audio equipment for significant lengths of time, and most good quality amps and CD players sound pretty much the same to me.
_

 

I don't know if you realize it, but you're responding to a comment I made eight months ago. In any event, as to the substance of your comment, I'm sorry to hear that. But it certainly explains many of your positions that you express on this forum, i.e., it sounds like a lot of things sound pretty much the same to you. That's cool, though. A lot of good wines taste pretty much the same to me.


----------



## bigshot

Listening to a stereo system isn't an art... and it isn't something that demands connoiseurship. That's all marketing lilly gilding designed to appeal to snooty people with more money than sense.

 In order to get really good sound reproduction, all you need is logic, experience and an ordinary human set of ears. If you compare things in an orderly, systematic fashion, you'll discover that the sonic differences between some things are much greater than the differences between other things. Amps and CD players all sound VERY similar. Speakers and rooms all sound VERY different. If you want to significantly improve the sound of your stereo, which should you focus on? It's not a trick question.

 Here's some anecdotal stuff...

 When I was a kid, my brother assembled a Macintosh system. He spent a lot of time scraping together the money, and not much time deciding what he wanted to get... he just bought the most respected name and the model that cost the most. His system sounded great.

 I went to Pacific Stereo and spent days in their auditioning room figuring out each component I wanted to add to my system. (I didn't have a lot of money like my brother.) I ended up with a Sanyo amp. I patched it into my brother's system one day while he was away and it sounded exactly the same through his speakers as his Macintosh power amp and preamp. When I hooked it up to my 8 inch bookshelf speakers, it didn't sound nearly as good. So I saved up and bought the same custom speakers my brother had. That Sanyo amp performed great for over 20 years and it cost a fraction of whay my brother's Macintosh cost. And my system sounds as good as my brother's.

 A few years ago, a sound mixer friend of mine shared some of his equalization theories with me. I was working on restoring recordings that didn't adhere to the RIAA curve, so I went out and bought a 31 band equalizer. I hooked it up to my system and started adjusting and lo and behold, my speakers sounded even better than they ever had.

 I was working on a project where I was sorting books from my library. I had them piled up all around the coffee table in my living room. I noticed that my stereo sounded terrible and tried to EQ to correct it, but had a very hard time. When I finished the project with the books and returned them to their shelves, suddenly my stereo started sounding good again.

 Recently, I bought a high end Philips SACD player. I compared it in my own system, and in the best system I could find, to a $200 Yamaha CD player. I tried really hard to hear a difference, and brought in a friend who is a professional sound engineer to audition with me. Neither of us could tell any difference in quality between redbook and SACD.

 Speakers and rooms are where audiophiles should spend their money and focus their attention on. Brand names and price tags on amps and CD players is a waste of money and energy.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_ Amps and CD players all sound VERY similar._

 

No they don't. To _you _they do.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_
 Speakers and rooms are where audiophiles should spend their money and focus their attention on._

 

Uh, excuse me, but this is "Head-Fi," so your comment is irrelevant to those who listen exclusively or mostly to headphones, which undoubtedly is a significant portion of the audience here. So much for your emphasis on "logic."

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Brand names and price tags on amps and CD players is a waste of money and energy.
_

 

For you they are. Fortunately, this is a free country, not a totalitarian state run by His Excellency bigshot, so the rest of us don't have to live our lives according to your dogmatic value judgments, notwithstanding that you continue to attempt to impose them on everybody else. Man, you are quite a character.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Listening to a stereo system isn't an art... and it isn't something that demands connoisseurship. That's all marketing lilly gilding designed to appeal to snooty people with more money than sense._

 

I disagree. At least if you're a sound gourmet, it's all about trainig your ears and learning to hear the nuances between different players and amps (just like a wine gourmet becomes able to enjoy wines on a higher level by learning to know the fine nuances) -- not just the obvious speaker (and headphone) colorations -- to appreciate the perfected sonic presentation and to enjoy listening to reproduced music as a holistic experience. Of course there's also the very real danger of becoming a setup listener... but thats a different story. 


  Quote:


 _In order to get really good sound reproduction, all you need is logic, experience and an ordinary human set of ears. If you compare things in an orderly, systematic fashion, you'll discover that the sonic differences between some things are much greater than the differences between other things. Amps and CD players all sound VERY similar. Speakers and rooms all sound VERY different. If you want to significantly improve the sound of your stereo, which should you focus on? It's not a trick question._ 
 

Of course there's nothing wrong with this statement. On the other hand, it's very basic stuff. Something to teach to a hi-fi beginner. If you're really into sound and sonic delicacies, there's more to explore than just sonic characteristics on speaker or generally sound-transducer level. 


  Quote:


 _Recently, I bought a high end Philips SACD player. I compared it in my own system, and in the best system I could find, to a $200 Yamaha CD player. I tried really hard to hear a difference, and brought in a friend who is a professional sound engineer to audition with me. Neither of us could tell any difference in quality between redbook and SACD._ 
 

Whatever the reason for your experience -- a different approach, different ears, different expectations, system resolution... --, mine is the opposite: I have the very same Philips SACD player which you're talking about, and for me it was the door-opener to high-resolution audio. 


  Quote:


 _Speakers and rooms are where audiophiles should spend their money and focus their attention on. Brand names and price tags on amps and CD players is a waste of money and energy._ 
 

Such a statement is understandable from your personal experience and attitude. If only it wasn't that absolutistic and worded like based on deep knowledge and professional experience. After all it's just your personal approach. Also, you seem to think people are just oriented on brand names and price tags. That would be childish indeed -- but it shows how low your respect is for a different approach to music reproduction than your own. Most people evaluate gear either by auditioning it themselves or by reading others' reviews. 
.


----------

