# Why has Sanyo OS-CON a bad rep when used for audio?



## NelsonVandal

I'm really a capacitor noob since I've avoided them in the audo path, but I just compared OS-CON to Sanyo WG and Panasonic FM, and i think the OS-CON's sound better. Clearer, less grainy and more neutral. I'm not sure since the listening tests hasn't been done blinded. In the test setup they're used as rails to ground caps sinking the return current from the phones. The comparisons aren't perfect since the WG's are 2200 uF, the FM's are 330 uF and the OS-CON's are 2x100 uF. I find wet electrolytics grainy, even BlackGate NX HiQ, but they sound grainy in a nice way and have clarity like standard electrolytics lack.

 I've read time and time again that OS-CON's aren't good for audio, but I've never seen a single review of them. Have any of you experience from using them in the audio path?


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## DKJones96

You'll find that a lot of the stuff people like actually change the sound in some way. I've purchased and tried many different caps recently and settled on films as my cap type of choice. They're more transparent and I like my amps to only amplify the signal, not change it. I want the audio coming out of the amp to be exactly like the audio that went in only louder.

 Just depends on your ears. The best film caps I've found and use aren't even designed with audio coupling in mind; they're high-voltage signal filters for long distance data transfer lol


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## pinkfloyd4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NelsonVandal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read time and time again that OS-CON's aren't good for audio_

 

hmm, I've always heard the exact opposite


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## Nemo de Monet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DKJones96* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I like my amps to only amplify the signal, not change it. I want the audio coming out of the amp to be exactly like the audio that went in only louder._

 

I'm with you, but I think we're in the minority here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It seems like a lot of people would rather "listen to the amplifier" or "listen to the DAC" than, you know, listen _to the music_. ("How'd you like the new Apocalyptica album?" "The bass is really tight, detailed, and authoritative, and the vocals have a great, airy presence with excellent imaging, but it seems like the high end is still kind of recessed and muddy. I bet that'd improve with a couple hundred bucks worth of NOS Mundorf gold-plated fairy-wings-in-virgin's-blood capacitors in there, though." "Okay, but how was the _album_? You know, the _music_? Did you have a favorite song?" "Meh, I don't really pay attention to that sort of thing.") 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But, hey, to each their own...

 I think that what capacitors (and/or resistors, tubes, designs, design philosophies...) are in and out of favor at any give moment can be attributed to a formula of 25% hype, 20% marketing propaganda, 50% _Secret Truths_ revealed in the _Protocols of the Elders of Audiophilia_, 3% irrational personal prejudice, and 2% measurable real-world experience. But that's just me.


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## majkel

Which OS-CON's? There are several types of them. The best I know are the SP series, with OFC wires. I still prefer the Sanyo WG but I use them for digital exclusively. For analog, both of them are intrusive, the OS-Con's more so looks like we are still talking about the amp or DAC voicing rather than neutrality. It is impossible to build a transparent audio component using just one type of electrolytic capacitors. Quite a good approach is to use the Elna Tonerex wherever you can, following it with Black Gate STD near the power supply stage.


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## linuxworks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nemo de Monet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that what capacitors (and/or resistors, tubes, designs, design philosophies...) are in and out of favor at any give moment can be attributed to a formula of 25% hype, 20% marketing propaganda, 50% Secret Truths revealed in the Protocols of the Elders of Audiophilia, 3% irrational personal prejudice, and 2% measurable real-world experience. But that's just me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

add in some percent for pretty colors too. raise your hands if you are guilty of using wimas just for the nice deep red colors?


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## DKJones96

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nemo de Monet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... NOS Mundorf gold-plated fairy-wings-in-virgin's-blood capacitors in there, though...._

 

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Good job hahahahaha

 As for the colors... I'll go for that. I've gotten a particular item because of color or even the look in general.


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## NelsonVandal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which OS-CON's? There are several types of them. The best I know are the SP series, with OFC wires. I still prefer the Sanyo WG but I use them for digital exclusively. For analog, both of them are intrusive, the OS-Con's more so looks like we are still talking about the amp or DAC voicing rather than neutrality. It is impossible to build a transparent audio component using just one type of electrolytic capacitors. Quite a good approach is to use the Elna Tonerex wherever you can, following it with Black Gate STD near the power supply stage._

 

I use Sanyo OS-CON SA/SC. In what way do you find them intrusive? I find them "dry" or "flat" and not intrusive. The WG's sound unclear and "muddy" in comparison.


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## majkel

The SA/SC flatness and dryness is nothing natural or neutral to me. As I said, the WG aren't transparent either and I stopped using them for analog long ago but having choice which capacitor to use on digital voltage supplies, it's clear to me I'll take the WG's. There are specific exceptions where I'd use tantalum capacitors but in most cases they spoil the sound.
 The most neutral electrolytic but not 100% is Elna Tonerex. Adding the BG is like the topping on the cake, it doesn't change the timbre or anything, just makes music even closer to live performance. With the Elna's alone you can have this impression as well but the Black Gate's make it happen more often or the illusion comes faster.


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## Face

Where is the best place to pick these up?

 Thanks!


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## hopeless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The SA/SC flatness and dryness is nothing natural or neutral to me. As I said, the WG aren't transparent either and I stopped using them for analog long ago but having choice which capacitor to use on digital voltage supplies, it's clear to me I'll take the WG's. There are specific exceptions where I'd use tantalum capacitors but in most cases they spoil the sound.
 The most neutral electrolytic but not 100% is Elna Tonerex. Adding the BG is like the topping on the cake, it doesn't change the timbre or anything, just makes music even closer to live performance. With the Elna's alone you can have this impression as well but the Black Gate's make it happen more often or the illusion comes faster._

 

What has Elna Tonerex to do with Oscon? The latter are small and fast caps for digital circuitry mainly, the former are big (3300 uF 16V is the min. value) caps for analog (mostly) power supplies.

 Also, Black Gate standard is precise but rips off the timbre.



 I love the Rubycon ZLH and YXH. They're great to me. They also have a veery long life, which is of primary importance for me. Most "for audio" caps are tested for 1000 hours at 85 °C, while these are tested for 6000 to 10000 hours at 105° C ... Just no comparison when life span is concerned.


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## nattonrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *linuxworks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_add in some percent for pretty colors too. raise your hands if you are guilty of using wimas just for the nice deep red colors? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

gulp... i'm so guilty it's not funni


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## majkel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Face* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where is the best place to pick these up?

 Thanks!_

 

ebay


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## rshuck

Quote:


 NOS Mundorf gold-plated fairy-wings-in-virgin's-blood capacitors in there 
 

Where can one find such items? I now have upgraditis. Also, is this from REAL virgins or "virgins"? You can tell the difference.


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## ChuckPro

I prefer film cap for audio than OS-CON.
  
 For these reasons:
 1.  It has far less harmonic noise.
 2.  It has far less parasitic inductance and resistance which adds to thermal noise.
     (The name of the game is to lower the resistance right?  Then why use OS-CON or al. cap for that matter?)
 3.  It has far less distortion.  (important.  Unless you want the uncontrolled distortion.  Don't get me wrong.
      I like the warm distortion sound, but dude, gotta get real.)
 4.  It is virtually un-breakable.
 5.  MTBF is practically infinite.  (well, OK, you won't listen to your portable device after 10 years.)
 6.  No polarity is needed.  (Sound is good when you have negative and positive polarity.)
 7.  No piezo like ceramic class II.  OK, class I is OK, but who makes 100uF class I ceramic cap for
 Class D amp?  (you don't want your pcb buzzing at less than 20KHz.)
 8.  No DC bias.  (this cause distortion.)
 9.  No temperature bias.  (this adds to distortion and noise.)
  
 Well, OK, here is the cons for using film cap.  This is why nobody use this for the portable audio.
 1.  The film cap is very very expensive compared to OS-CON for the same size capacitance.
 2.  The film cap is big.  Well, who wants that on the portable device like iPhone?
  
 From that stand point, I tolerate even tantalum cap over OS-CON.  Sony must be hallucinating to
 promote OS-CON.  A real man goes for film cap.


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## tomb

chuckpro said:


> I prefer film cap for audio than OS-CON.
> 
> For these reasons:
> 1.  It has far less harmonic noise.
> ...


 
  
 The fact is that this comes down to the load on the output.  Given the physical constraints of an RC circuit, if you have any desire whatsoever to power a low-impedance headphone, you need a huge capacitance on the output to keep from cutting out bass frequencies.  OS-Cons and high-quality electrolytics provide very high uf's at a very small form factor.

 A real man might have trouble swinging a film capacitor that's 220uf or 470uf, much less paying for the enlargement.


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## 00940

@chuckpro: specify the application otherwise all you say is meaningless.
  
 In audio coupling applications, ESR is a complete non-issue, even with the worst electrolytics.
  
 ESR is only relevant for decoupling/bypassing. And in that position many film caps are unsuitable, since they have too high ESL (due to longish leads, made worse by the pcb layout they require due to their size).


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## joe

Let's drop the insults, guys.


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