# Gun-Fi



## necropimp

yeah i know... *-fi gets on some people's nerves...

 but i've noticed a fair number of us are gun owners

 for those who live in countries where the gunlaws are very restrictive airsoft or deactivated is fine if you mention it is

 and if guns and their owners scare you or you are an anti-gun type you shouldn't have clicked on the thread to begin with so please DO NOT post anti-gun comments in my thread

the whole collection

 and a few favorites of the collection (for those who don't click links)


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## lmilhan

Although I am definately not a member of Gun-Fi, I can certainly appreciate a nice collection. And that is indeed a handsome looking collection.

 My favorites are the ones that are beat up with a lot of scarring in the patina - they have a lot of 'character'.


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## jmmtn4aj

Guns are illegal here, even things that 'look' like real guns and shoot projectiles (airsoft, bb, paintball, air rifles and pistols) but that doesn't stop me from loving guns 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And WOW!


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## mrarroyo

I love the M1 30 carbine, I wished I had gotten a paratrooper model to go with my regular one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do have a folding stock ...


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## TheMarchingMule

*drools*

 Hopefully in a few years I can buy at least a pistol of good caliber (I live in California, and from what I heard, they take extra precautions) and maybe a rifle with a scope. I love how this hobby trains you in patience and precision; both things I love to practice.


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## marvin

I'm a bit of a Smith and Wesson fan...


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## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a bit of a Smith and Wesson fan...




_

 

Airsoft right?


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Airsoft right?_


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## D1g1talV3n0m

That's my concealed carry gun. IWB holster all the way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've also got a 5" Walther P22 and just recently bought a Tanfolgio Limited Custom in 10mm. 

 I own one AR-15 with a White Oaks Armament Varmint Upper (20" staintless bull barrel) with a RRA lower receiver with 2 stage NM trigger, Magpul PRS, and Bushnell Elite 4200 scope.

 My 1,000 yard target rifle is a 700 Remington VSF in .308

 I guess you could say I like guns. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have been thinking of getting into IPSC matches. Wish I could find the time.


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## AuroraProject

My Sig P220ST .45, my only gun currently. I am considering picking up a Glock 26 9mm and getting my ccw.


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## vpivinylspinner

Where do I sign up?


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## AFEnlistee

i have every one of thos rifles necro has. not the pistol tho. have a tarus .357 8 inch stainless barrel. outstanding revolver. have quite a few other rifles too. just too lazy to take a picture of em all. sks, savage 7mm mag, 8mm mauser m98, m1 garand (all matching numbers), to name a few off the top of my head.


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## BRBJackson

Too lazy to drag the long guns out, but here're a few of the handguns. Faves in the group are the USP .40 and S&W 908.


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## archosman

Here's a few of mine...


 Old Smith&Wesson .38 Special... not mine






 My first Ruger...





 9MM Taurus. Had a lot of use!





 Heckler & Koch USP-40. Got it when they first came out





 Taurus 94 .22





 Smith & Wesson 586 .357





 U talkin' to me? Model 27 .357 8 3/8 inch barrel





 Group shot of Revolvers





 Whole family


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## user18

Do these count?


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## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *user18* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do these count? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			












_

 

Haha!

 Well, if those count, then I guess Nerf guns do too!


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## rb67

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a bit of a Smith and Wesson fan...




_

 

How do you like the new M&P semi auto? I'm considering purchasing my first guns and it's one of them on the considerations list.


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BRBJackson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too lazy to drag the long guns out, but here're a few of the handguns. Faves in the group are the USP .40 and S&W 908.




_

 


 Bill, when the "big one" hits here, my family is heading to your place for protectio...err an extended Head-fi meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


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## choomanchoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *user18* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do these count? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	











_

 

Best collection by far


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## Joshatdot

If I had the disposable income, I would totally be a Colt 1911/A1 collector.


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## Joshatdot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *user18* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do these count? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	











_

 

ROFL OMG I have'nt see that in YEARS!!


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## BRBJackson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bill, when the "big one" hits here, my family is heading to your place for protectio...err an extended Head-fi meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

Ed, wait'll you see my new bomb shelter!!


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rb67* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you like the new M&P semi auto? I'm considering purchasing my first guns and it's one of them on the considerations list._

 

Between the big names in plastic guns (S&W M&P, Glock 19, Beretta PX-4 and Springfield XD) it comes down to personal preference. I owned all of them at one point or another and found them to be uniformly reliable and capable. (Note: HK isn't counted as it's significantly more expensive than this set of pistols.)

 For me, the M&P won out because of ergonomics. I have smallish hands, so the exchangeable backstrap was great. Trigger pull is just okay out of the box, but smooths up nicely with use. The trigger reset still sucks though. The bore axis is low, and the beavertail really helps in getting a high grip. It's easily the bargain of the bunch at ~ $400.

 The best advice would be to go into a gun store, try all of them, and pick the one that points the most naturally for you.


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joshatdot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I had the disposable income, I would totally be a Colt 1911/A1 collector._

 

Two Words: "National Match"


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## HiWire

I spent half an hour browsing the Detonics website yesterday, if that counts for anything. Kickin' it old school... the Bren Ten, Colt Delta Elite, and Glock 20 were also favorites of mine... do we sense a theme here?


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## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiWire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent half an hour browsing the Detonics website yesterday, if that counts for anything. Kickin' it old school... the Bren Ten, Colt Delta Elite, and Glock 20 were also favorites of mine... do we sense a theme here?_

 

LOL, you like wimpy calibers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jeez, I never thought I'd see a caliber war break out on Head-Fi...


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## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Two Words: "National Match" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 

bah... 4 letters... USGI... i'm still dreaming of a USMC marked WW1 era 1911... key word is dreaming... i'll never have the $3500+ i've seen them sell for


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## braillediver

I just picked up an H+K P7 M8.







 Mitch


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## CaseJ

vpivinylspinner;2958738 said:
			
		

> Where do I sign up?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## necropimp

got a random idea for a photo... and had to take it right away


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## marvin

Just picked up 3 cases of Black Hills 55 gr FMJ .223 at $330/1k.

 Ammo prices are depressing.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up an H+K P7 M8.

http://photo.head-fi.org/data/937/medium/DSCN8779.JPG

 Mitch_

 

Good pick.

 My P7 is easily my favorite pistol, odd manual of arms and all.


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## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up an H+K P7 M8.








 Mitch_

 





 Approves... Mr. Cowboy


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## shigzeo

x2 on the scared 

 i hope no one actually carries these things with them


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2 on the scared 

 i hope no one actually carries these things with them_

 

Only for about 8 hours a day when I'm not at work or asleep. And when I'm asleep, I have a locked and loaded AR-15 under the bed.

 For the privilege of carrying a gun, I had to pay the state $150, pay an instructor $150, attend 8 hours of class teaching the legalities behind the use of force, and ace a 50 round shooting qualification. The FBI did a background check on me and the state has my fingerprints. I spent more money on training to obtain proficiency, and a lot more in ammunition to keep it. 

 I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I keep out of dangerous areas at night, and basically do my damnedest to avoid trouble. Aside from a little speeding (always within 10 mph of the speed limit), I'm a perfectly aboveboard citizen.

 Frankly, it's the man and not the tool you should be worried about. You see more dangerous people with more deadly tools than me all the time.


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## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Frankly, it's the man and not the tool you should be worried about. You see more dangerous people with more deadly tools than me all the time._

 

QFT...


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## shigzeo

cool. yeah, cars do more damage than guns - both should be outlawed! ^_^


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## FallenAngel

Wow, can you say touchy subject?

 Man Vs Tool - uhm... sure, but won't it be A LOT more fun if all forms of guns were not only outlawed, but completely taken out of circulation (like instituting a "Give us your guns or we kill you" law and you'll see those guns off the streets prettty quickly).

 Then we'll all be back to bows and arrows, swords and of course the occasional cross-bow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To the guys with the guns, damn some of those collections look REALLY nice. Personally, I'm against guns on a principle level, but would I personally like to have one for sport, damn right!


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I'm against guns on a principle level, but would I personally like to have one for sport, damn right!_

 

You're a martial arts type, yet you're against guns. What makes a martial artist morally superior to a rifleman or a pistolero?


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## archosman

I think that what most people don't realise is most of these are purchased over and extended period of time. Mine spans a 15 year time frame. A lot of people just see 6-10 guns and think "Oh crap... that's a lot guns!"

 It's not like we go out and get a new one every 6 months. I find that seems to be the standard reaction when you see someone's collection. 

 To those of you who say "I'm scared of those things" I believe that is due to being unfamiliar with firearms and how they work. I'll preface that with a little story..


 I was having lunch with a friend of mine about 4 weeks ago and we were discussing various topics and self-defense and firearms came up. She lives alone and as of late it's been on her mind. Now I haven't shot anything in about 6 years, so half-jokingly I mentioned we could go to the range sometime.

 She was all over that. I was completely floored...because I assumed that shooting would be the last thing in the world that she would ever do. Proved me wrong. So we had gun class for 2.5 hours... going over safety, how a revolver works, how a semi-automatic (Ruger 22/45) works, loading, safety, and surprisingly combat tactics. She asked a ton of questions and was a great student. No mistakes at the range either. She got in the 10 ring close to the X on her first shot.

 I guess my point is until you are instructed in their use it's pointless to be afraid of them. Are they dangerous? You bet. But so is a car if you put someone in it who has never ever driven one and tell them to go to the store.

 Finally...

 I would prefer if someone has another opinion about firearms that they start their own thread. This thread will get locked in a heartbeat if debates start, and the thread was started for those of us here who lawfully own and responsibly use our firearms. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but don't threadcrap... and so far no one has yet. I enjoy seeing what the other Head-Fiers have and don't mind showing mine either.


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## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're a martial arts type, yet you're against guns. What makes a martial artist morally superior to a rifleman or a pistolero?_

 

Are you kidding? You've never seen Chuck Norris? No bullets can hit him!


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## braillediver

"It's not like we go out and get a new one every 6 months."

 How true- I bought 3 last month.


 Mitch


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## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

CZ has had my interest for a long time. Will likely be my next purchase. Unfortunately, the feds just raided my largest local gun shop. I have small hands so I don't dare buy without trying.

 I'm thinking this one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=63

 or maybe this one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=81


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## trains are bad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rb67* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you like the new M&P semi auto? I'm considering purchasing my first guns and it's one of them on the considerations list._

 

FWIW I carry a S&W M&P9c every day and love it. I do consider it a gun that needs trigger work out of the box, though.


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## trains are bad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only for about 8 hours a day when I'm not at work or asleep. And when I'm asleep, I have a locked and loaded AR-15 under the bed.

 For the privilege of carrying a gun, I had to pay the state $150, pay an instructor $150, attend 8 hours of class teaching the legalities behind the use of force, and ace a 50 round shooting qualification. The FBI did a background check on me and the state has my fingerprints. I spent more money on training to obtain proficiency, and a lot more in ammunition to keep it. _

 


 That sounds pretty depressing, considering I'm planning on moving to TX this fall for grad school...you don't even have open carry! And yet I hear about how progun TX is all the time. I'm seriously not too thrilled.


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That sounds pretty depressing, considering I'm planning on moving to TX this fall for grad school...you don't even have open carry! And yet I hear about how progun TX is all the time. I'm seriously not too thrilled._

 

Texans _are_ pro-gun. Our laws aren't. Over a century of single party rule and Jim Crow laws does funny things.

 Really, you have to remember that Texas had a major political revolution during the first half of the 90's. Since the Civil War, the Texas government was solidly ruled by Democrats. Around 1960, Republicans started gaining ground in Texas. The situation continued until 1990, when Republicans pulled nearly 60% of the votes in the House and Senate races, but gerrymandering prevented them from controlling the government.

 In '94 though, the Republican party, lead by George W Bush, solidly crushed the Democrats. Unsurprisingly, after fitful starts in the '80s and early '90's, our CHL law was passed in 1995. It's flawed because the Republicans' grasp on power was still tenuous at the time and they had to compromise in order to pass the law.


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## vpivinylspinner

CaseJ;2962777 said:
			
		

> vpivinylspinner;2958738 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SonicArmada

Does anyone know where I can find a heavy-duty metal airsoft gun that isn't extremely cheap looking/feeling? Something like a Glock 20, Beretta M92FS, or a Five-Seven? Every one I find looks cheap, and reviews say they're not very powerful.


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## D1g1talV3n0m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CZ has had my interest for a long time. Will likely be my next purchase. Unfortunately, the feds just raided my largest local gun shop. I have small hands so I don't dare buy without trying.

 I'm thinking this one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=63

 or maybe this one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=81_

 

I suggest going to somewhere that you know carries CZ's and trying them. The 75b Stainless that I put the pic up is the gun I use when I concealed carry. You might also look into the SP01. 

 Honestly everyone who has handled it be it large hands, small hands, or "average" sized hands has had no problem shooting it. The CZ's are also built VERY tough which I love. They have a great "Feel" and control compared to most guns.

 I'm not a big fan of 1911's both for their accuracy (Unless you spend a bit of money) and their "feel". Some people are. Just find what works best for you and use it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, you like wimpy calibers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jeez, I never thought I'd see a caliber war break out on Head-Fi... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Check out Doubletapammo.com for TRUE 10mm power loads. I personally love my 10mm (Tanfoglio Limited Custom). One of the most fun calibers I have found.


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## HiWire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, you like wimpy calibers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jeez, I never thought I'd see a caliber war break out on Head-Fi... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha... I got sold on the 10mm Auto after the FBI did their initial tests way back in the 80s. Of course, I prefer the full load, not the Fed Lite that they ended up with. I also thought the MP5/10 was a great idea. It seems to be as good as the newer autopistol calibers that are coming out, e.g. .357 SIG and .45 GAP, provided the shooter can handle the recoil. I don't find higher-power rounds useful in an automatic pistol... they tend toward the Desert Eagle-style dinosaur-killers, once you move farther up the line.


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## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where do I sign up?




_

 

beautiful gun. I have a thing for 1911's. When I was younger I used to own a wilson combat CQB airsoft replica in olive drab. 





 I pefer rifle shooting over pistols, but man would these ever look good just sitting on a display case in the house.


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## necropimp

my general response to such comments on a firearm related thread (that has firearm, gun, rifle, pistol, etc in the title) is "you could have just NOT CLICKED ON THE THREAD!"


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SonicArmada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know where I can find a heavy-duty metal airsoft gun that isn't extremely cheap looking/feeling? Something like a Glock 20, Beretta M92FS, or a Five-Seven? Every one I find looks cheap, and reviews say they're not very powerful._

 

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=17933

 Heavy duty metal? Check. Authentic appearance? Check. Not extremely cheap looking/feeling? Check. Powerful? Check.

 Four times more expensive than "real steel"? Check.


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## pne

holy cow is that thing expensive. check out KJW full metal series, i have shot a few and they are very good for the price. They are hefty and can take propane so they pack a bit of punch. The finish is not as good as some of the more expensive guns like western arms, but they don't look like toys either.


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## necropimp

i never understood airsoft... or more specifically that level of airsoft gun... recently saw a half-decent looking airsoft K98k and it was $500 i spent $190 for a russian capture K98k


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## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a locked and loaded AR-15 under the bed._

 

For self defense? I hope you don't live in an apartment or have others in your home. The .223 will carry very well through drywall/sheetrock. For self defense, no way I'd use a piece like that and I own 3 of them. My personal preference is either a .357 revolver(with some CorBon) or shotgun for home defense. Weapons like the AR15 or Steyr Aug aren't a good choice IMO but to each his own. No offense intended btw.


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## Old Pa

. . . a pair of silly Savages:






 Lots of nice looking and shooting firearms out there, gents, so I thought I would show you something different; precision bolt action long range pistols. The Savage Striker is based on the short Model 110 bolt action with a two shot fixed magazine. The top one is in .22-250 with a fourteen inch factory barrel with a Burris 3-12X LER scope. The lower is a custom in .308Win with a 14.5 inch barrel topped with a VAIS compensator and a Burris 2-7X LER scope. The .22-250 barrel fits with Savage's proprietary screw nut system, but the .308's receiver and barrel are threaded together more traditionally. Both have been fitted with Rifle Basix excellent trigger upgrade kits (breaking around 3#) and both (with the appropriate ammunitions) shoot under and inch. Why? The .22-250 was first for prairie poodles under 200 yards. It worked so well that the .308 was next to take advantage of handgun only seasons on medium and large game.


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## archosman

How much kick do those have Old Pa? Looks like at least one's Mag-Na-Ported.


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## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* 
_i never understood airsoft... or more specifically that level of airsoft gun... recently saw a half-decent looking airsoft K98k and it was $500 i spent $190 for a russian capture K98k_

 

Japan.

 Unless you're really dedicated and a heck of a shot, you cannot own a pistol in Japan. They have a limited number of pistol licenses (50) available for the whole country, with a very restrictive licensing and testing scheme. How restrictive? Well, only 30 or so of the pistol licenses are filled...

 So really, the only way to own something approximating "real steel" is through airsoft. And if it approximates "real steel", it's going to cost just as much to produce.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KenW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For self defense? I hope you don't live in an apartment or have others in your home. The .223 will carry very well through drywall/sheetrock. For self defense, no way I'd use a piece like that and I own 3 of them. My personal preference is either a .357 revolver(with some CorBon) or shotgun for home defense. Weapons like the AR15 or Steyr Aug aren't a good choice IMO but to each his own. No offense intended btw.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No offense taken. The idea that .223/5.56 will always penetrate more than pistol rounds is a common misconception. After going through the literature, I settled on the AR specifically to reduce overpenetration since I live in an apartment.

 If I were forced to use one of the heavier FMJ or OTM loadings (> 60 gr), military loadings (M193, M855), or any of the former Comblock stuff, then yeah, overpenetration concerns would stop me from considering the AR for home defense duties. But, I don't have to, and the use of .223 for varmint purposes gives me a wide selection of low penetration bullets to work with.

 My preferred cartridge is Federal's T223D (40 gr HP), which is based around an overdriven varmint bullet. Federal's testing shows that it penetrates roughly 6" in bare ballistic gelatin. This is about as much penetration as a Glaser Safety Slug, or half as much penetration as from your garden variety expanded JHP from a service caliber. The FBI's testing found penetration of anything other than body armored adversaries seriously lacking. Due to it's light construction and high velocity, it had a tendency to breakup upon hitting intermediate barriers. The FBI ended up recommending it only for short barrels (< 12"), which would bleed off some of the velocity and increase penetration.

 So really, my AR as loaded is much less of an overpenetration threat than any pistol I own.


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## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much kick do those have Old Pa? Looks like at least one's Mag-Na-Ported._

 

First off, the .22-250 weighs in at 7# and the .308Win tips in at 7.25#; there are lighter weight rifles available in both calibers. Mag-Na-Porting is a proprietary EDM process by which two or more pentagonal ports are cut in the top of the barrel to redirect combustion gases and reduce muzzle flip. I have had it done to a couple of barrels (and later sold the guns). It is loud. Very loud for a hunting/tactical firearm. The VAIS comp is a two-stage design that first scavenges gas from behind the bullet to charge coaxial ports which are then disrupted transversally by the second stage of gas flow; it's very effective at reducing perceived recoil without being excessively loud. I have shot rifles equipped with Vais comps in classes and at matches without unduly disturbing those shooting to either side of me. That said, ear protection is mandatory with these pistol length barrels, but both Strikers are controllable offhand commensurate with my ability to hold and shoot. At 400 yards, the .22-250 off the bags keeps its rounds on a four inch steel plate for me if I do my part. At the same range, the .308Win will do the same on a six inch steel plate; I have some work to do on its loads.


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## trains are bad

Quote:


 For self defense? I hope you don't live in an apartment or have others in your home. The .223 will carry very well through drywall/sheetrock. 
 

I'd rather stand on the other side of a sheetrock wall from an AR15 with frangible varmint bullets, than just about any handgun. The overpenetration of the .223 across all ammo types is misunderstood. I have witnessed Hornady Vmax and Speer TNT bullets fail to make it through both sides of a cardboard box. An EBR with frangible bullets is a fine home defense weapon.


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## Old Pa

Medium, light, and heavy tactical precision rifles. Top is the medium; a Remington 700 Tactical (left-hand) with 26 inch tube. Its internal box magazine has been custom lengthened to hold its preferred fodder of 175gr Sierra Match Kings seated to be 0.010” off the lands when chambered. It’s scoped with a Leupold Long Range Tactical 4.5-14x50mm (30mm tube) and mil-dot reticle; note the extended scope leveler. Trigger has been replaced with a Timney that breaks like a glass rod at 2.5#. Shooting sling is pretty standard but of a synthetic material that is much more stable than leather; no rattle swivels. It wears a VAIS comp. I can shoot this gun into 0.375” at 100 yds.

 Middle is the light; a AR-15 HBAR (stainless) in .223Rem, free-floating 24” tube with another VAIS. It’s wearing a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm that’s built on a 1 inch tube with standard turrets. It has a lighted mil-dot reticle for low light use and is fitted with a crisp JP Performance trigger. Standard load here is a Hornady 60grain VMax. This is a 0.50” gun for me.

 Bottom is the heavy; a completely custom H. S. Precision left hand short action in .300WSM with 26” barrel and another VAIS. It’s wearing a Leupold LRT 6.5-20x50mm (30mm tube) with mil-dot reticle and scope leveler. The trigger is a thing of beauty and art, breaking cleanly at 2.5#. With loads as first worked up, and the bullets must be seated well back from the lands to fit in the detachable magazines, this rifle shoots under 0.50” for me at 100 yards with 175gr Match Kings.


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## wnewport




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## CaseJ

Well... here is part of my collection






































 My Dad's CCW


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## rincewind

Seriously, you Americans scare the living **** out of me. And you scratch your heads and wonder why things like Columbine happen.

 This thread makes me think of a "That's My Bush!" episode where the final line is: "Americans have the right to bear arms, but not the right to arm bears."

 Australia (and most other countries) definitely have their own problems, but some things on this planet have gotten ridiculous.

 I appreciate the guns shown for the fact that they are precision-built well engineered tools, but only in the same way I appreciate a well made pen or speaker.

 Exhibit A) This thread.

 Exhibit B) This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUzD2qV6a8k

 Yeah I know they only picked the dumbest, most enthusiastic twits they could find from (what I assume was a larger group of) 'normal' ppl they interviewed, but multiply whatever factor of ppl own guns by the number of twits shown in the video, and consider that roughly this fraction of ppl are armed. Some for every waking hour of their day (as described in an earlier post). Go get 'em boys.


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## Gautama

Though I'd like to get into long-range rifle targetshooting, I haven't the cash. And even if I did, I don't know what to buy and I dont know of a shooting range in the area (South Bend). And besides, I don't think I'd be allowed in at age 14.


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## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously, you Americans scare the living **** out of me. And you scratch your heads and wonder why things like Columbine happen.

 This thread makes me think of a "That's My Bush!" episode where the final line is: "Americans have the right to bear arms, but not the right to arm bears."

 Australia (and most other countries) definitely have their own problems, but some things on this planet have gotten ridiculous.

 I appreciate the guns shown for the fact that they are precision-built well engineered tools, but only in the same way I appreciate a well made pen or speaker.

 Exhibit A) This thread.

 Exhibit B) This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUzD2qV6a8k

 Yeah I know they only picked the dumbest, most enthusiastic twits they could find from (what I assume was a larger group of) 'normal' ppl they interviewed, but multiply whatever factor of ppl own guns by the number of twits shown in the video, and consider that roughly this fraction of ppl are armed. Some for every waking hour of their day (as described in an earlier post). Go get 'em boys._

 

[standard response]
 1. if guns and their owners scare you... you could just NOT CLICK ON THE THREAD
 2. you DON'T HAVE TO REPLY
 [/standard response]


----------



## CaseJ

People like myself who have large collections of rifles don't really fire them all but collect different kinds of guns. Also there is a type of rifle that is better suited for different hunts, thus why i have multiple .3006 and .308. As for the columbine comment, I honestly believe that the crazy people you see didn't grow up around guns. A lot of my friends had never fired a gun before and everytime i let them chose which they want to fire hands down they all go for the AK47 instead of the 4k shotgun, or other higher end guns. I believe in their mind they think oh hey that looks crazy lets go for that, where as some one who appreciates guns would notice the craftsmanship of a better rifle and not go for the flashy AK. Just my $.02


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously, you Americans scare the living **** out of me. And you scratch your heads and wonder why things like Columbine happen._

 

You seem unable to distinguish possession from intent. For what it's worth, I would much rather die than harm you.


----------



## KenW

My two favorites are the Sig 220 with tritium night sights and a T-Kote finish and the old Smiths. The HK and Rugers are also high on my list of favorites. I'd love to get my hands on a Colt SAA. A friend has a set of 5 that have never....NEVER...had the cylinders turned! I'd kill for just one of those. 

 One of my biggest regrets is not doing the DCM shoots which would have allowed me to buy an M1 Garand for....heaven help me....$100.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I get sick everytime I think of that wasted opportunity. Two of my buddies have absolutely wonderful specimens for $100 and 40 rounds of ammo. Just a sick, sick feeling if I'm being honest.


----------



## rincewind

I know the ppl on here are probably 99% responsible etc. No offence intended.

 I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death). I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. This kind of warehouse would be best in industrial suburbs etc, not next to townhall  I think there would be less incidents with kids in homes and crazy idiots taking them to public places with only malicious intent.


----------



## mrarroyo

CaseJ beautiful piece your dad carries. Any reason he is using those sideslabs instead of something in cocobolo or similar? My issue would be with being slippery. Thanks.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the ppl on here are probably 99% responsible etc. No offence intended.

 I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death). I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. This kind of warehouse would be best in industrial suburbs etc, not next to townhall  I think there would be less incidents with kids in homes and crazy idiots taking them to public places with only malicious intent._

 

You have made your point but you insist on hanging out in this thread that scares you so much. This thread was started for a specific reason and you crapping on it will only get it closed so maybe you can try to act civilized and go away.


----------



## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i never understood airsoft... or more specifically that level of airsoft gun... recently saw a half-decent looking airsoft K98k and it was $500 i spent $190 for a russian capture K98k_

 

being able to target shoot in your own home whenever you'd like, with something that works very similar to real steel. Also airsoft games are the biggest adrenaline rush ever. Playing with magazines that hold realistic capacities in unfamilar terrain, hunting and being hunted by a human target. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So really, my AR as loaded is much less of an overpenetration threat than any pistol I own._

 

it seems like an incredibly poor choice for close quarters defense, no offence. Just wondering why you use it when a pistol is much more manuverable in CQB.


----------



## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death)._

 

why would I be concerned about the statistics of gun related deaths if someone is invading my home? Maybe gun related deaths disturb you, but there are worse statistics out there like vehicle related deaths, or impaired driving related deaths. How many people choose to partake in those activities compared to gun ownership?


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the ppl on here are probably 99% responsible etc. No offence intended.

 I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death). I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. This kind of warehouse would be best in industrial suburbs etc, not next to townhall  I think there would be less incidents with kids in homes and crazy idiots taking them to public places with only malicious intent._

 






 ...

 read our constitution and laws sometime. 

 This thread was started by enthusiasts and people who appreciate shooting. We know our hobby in this instance (you don't)... we understand the implications of what we own (you don't)... we're responsible owners (you obviously aren't) and I seriosly doubt you have the desire to own one. Like vpivinylspinner said... if you don't care for it then get out of the thread before _*your*_ actions get it closed. G****m man... everyone deserves and opinion but comments like yours promts angry responses and another thread goes entirely down the crapper due to an individual's *[size=x-small]complete lack[/size]* of knowledge base. Quit it you guys... I'm tired of seeing disinformation ruin it... absolutely ruin it for other people.


----------



## ThomasJB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 ...

 read our constitution and laws sometime. 

 This thread was started by enthusiasts and people who appreciate shooting. We know our hobby in this instance (you don't)... we understand the implications of what we own (you don't)... we're responsible owners (you obviously aren't) and I seriosly doubt you have the desire to own one. Like vpivinylspinner said... if you don't care for it then get out of the thread before *your* actions get it closed. G****m man... everyone deserves and opinion but comments like yours promts angry responses and another thread goes entirely down the crapper due to an individual's *[size=x-small]complete lack[/size]* of knowledge base. Quit it you guys... I'm tired of seeing disinformation ruin it... absolutely ruin it for other people.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think this is a little harsh...Certainly, you and many other gun owners are responsible people, but just look at the murder rate here in the US. The problem is that there are lots of bad people out there, as well as ones who are just careless or stupid, and when you think of those people having arsenals like these...well, that's more than a little scary, and so I can certainly understand rincewind's point of view. It's a little harder for me to understand the point of view of those who say there should be much *less* regulation of gun ownership.
 For what it's worth, I'd certainly like to learn more about this, maybe go to a range sometime. I've never fired anything heavier than an airsoft gun myself. Maybe when I turn eighteen...just a few more months...


----------



## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ThomasJB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I've never fired anything heavier than an airsoft gun myself. Maybe when I turn eighteen...just a few more months...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

definately check out the range, it is a lot of fun and you don't have to be 18. A lot of ranges are super friendly towards complete newbies, I've even taken my ex there on a few dates and we both had a blast. Try out as many types of guns as you can, don't just reach for the desert eagle or the m4 because they look good.


----------



## Spareribs

I have mixed feelings about this thread. Guns are a cool hobby but a lot of kids do read Head-fi and promoting guns to people under 18 is not really the best thing. Or maybe it is OK but it's a little sketchy. 

 But anway, nice collection of guns though. I would like to own an old World War 2 gun for memorabillia purposes but without the bullets.


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have mixed feelings about this thread. Guns are a cool hobby but a lot of kids do read Head-fi and promoting guns to people under 18 is not really the best thing. Or maybe it is OK but it's a little sketchy. 

 But anway, nice collection of guns though. I would like to own an old World War 2 gun for memorabillia purposes but without the bullets._

 

Kids are exposed to guns on TV and in movies on a daily basis. Actually, they see far more of them and in far more graphic display than what they will see in this thread. Really, I respect all opinions, but why can't gun enthusiasts have a discussion and share about their other hobby/passion without all the criticisim? I'm not slamming you about your post, but it strikes me as odd that folks are so upset about this thread.


----------



## Joshatdot




----------



## wnewport

The .50 caliber Smith and Wesson is cooler than a Desert Eagle IMO.

 Each are ungodly bulky and impractical though.


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ThomasJB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this is a little harsh...Certainly, you and many other gun owners are responsible people, but just look at the murder rate here in the US. The problem is that there are lots of bad people out there, as well as ones who are just careless or stupid, and when you think of those people having arsenals like these...well, that's more than a little scary, and so I can certainly understand rincewind's point of view. It's a little harder for me to understand the point of view of those who say there should be much *less* regulation of gun ownership.
 For what it's worth, I'd certainly like to learn more about this, maybe go to a range sometime. I've never fired anything heavier than an airsoft gun myself. Maybe when I turn eighteen...just a few more months...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You hit the nail on the head.....there are, indeed, "lots of bad people out there". *They* are the problem. Folks always seem to think another law on the books will solve all the problems but history shows us differently. It won't solve a thing. Only the law abiding will pay any mind to any such law. Kind of like our immigration laws, tax laws, drug laws, etc....

 This thread is filled with law abiding citizens show casing their legally obtained firearms that they use in their hobbies and for protection of themselves and their families. 

 You want to see something really scary? Do some googling about Nazi Weapons Law (March 18, 1938). Of course, this subject is really doing a disservice to the main purpose of this thread which is to allow fellowship between lawful gun owners about their hobby. For that, I apologize to the others who are enjoying this thread in the spirit it was intended.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* 
_I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death)._

 






 So, if someone tried to kill you, you'd just let them do it? There's no difference if you kill him or if he kills you. Still a violence related death.

 That's why I carry a gun. Because it damn well matters to me whether I'm the one that lives or dies.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it seems like an incredibly poor choice for close quarters defense, no offence. Just wondering why you use it when a pistol is much more manuverable in CQB._

 

Cause I ain't going to be doing the maneuvering.

 At best, solo room clearing is a fool's game. At worst, it's suicide. So, I'll let the other guy play that game. I'll be hunkering down in my room, covering the door with my rifle and using a chair as a rest. To put it in gaming terms, I'm planning on spawn camping. If you're playing fair, you're doing it wrong.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At best, solo room clearing is a fool's game. At worst, it's suicide. So, I'll let the other guy play that game. I'll be hunkering down in my room, covering the door with my rifle and using a chair as a rest. If you're playing fair, you're doing it wrong._

 


 There are no medals for second place in a gunfight...

 Marvin's right.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ThomasJB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this is a little harsh......_

 

I don't.

 Just saying...


----------



## trains are bad

Quote:


 I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. 
 

Are you willing to do the same with your audio gear? You don't really NEED to have it available all the time do you? You clearly don't know much about the gun hobby. I fiddle with my guns daily. They always need fixed, cleaned, dirtied
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , modified, scopes switched, mags loaded, widgets switched from one gun to the other, ammunition reloaded for, holsters tried on, or just admired. 

  Quote:


 what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death 
 

There is an extremely large difference. In one scenerio I, the good guy, am dead, in the other, the bad guy who tried to kill me is dead. And what's even better, he won't be able to kill anyone else. That's a very large difference. Dear lord man. Are you amoral? 

 Hunting and target shooting are your legitimate uses eh? Well, I don't hunt (not with guns). My guns aren't for hunting, they are weapons. When I shoot at the range, it's not hunting practice, it's pretty much killing-people practice. Does that make you uncomfortable? Do people that practice martial arts make you similarly uncomfortable? The only difference is I'm a lot more practical about the whole self-defense thing.

 Right now, I am lying in by bed with my dog and laptop, and I have three guns within reach, two of them loaded. I just got back from work, where I carry a gun every day. If you ever see me in public, chances are I will be carrying at least one gun. I have a loaded SKS in the trunk of my car. Uncomfortable? Too bad, this is our thread.

 I don't really care. I'm tired of apologizing for taking responsibility for my own safety and those of innocents around me. Cops carry guns for shooting bad guys, and I do too, because I'm neither daft enough to think a cop will be there when I need him nor despicable enough to believe that his meager salary entitles me to his assistance. Did you see the videos of the cops crouching outside of VA tech with assault rifles scared to go in while defensles, innocent young women and men were being killed?

 You want to talk about school shootings? Guns were illegal on VA tech's campus. This didn't stop a madman from killing 30+ innocent victims, but it did stop all who might have resisted him from having the tools to do so. _Three of the students he shot had liscences to carry concealed weapons._ They probably didn't carry because they didn't want to get expelled and ruin their career. As a college student myself, I get to make this terrible choice for mysef every day.

 Gun owners are nothing short of oppressed. We have to practically be lawyers to keep from getting thrown in jail for 20 years over a harmless technicality like putting parts together in the wrong order or accidentally having more than x parts of foreign origin on our guns. Guns are weapons, they will not go away. Even an island nation like japan can't keep guns out; the mayor of nagasaki was just shot to death. 

 If you don't want to own guns, I think that is just great. I do. So just leave me alone.


----------



## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cause I ain't going to be doing the maneuvering.

 At best, solo room clearing is a fool's game. At worst, it's suicide. So, I'll let the other guy play that game. I'll be hunkering down in my room, covering the door with my rifle and using a chair as a rest. To put it in gaming terms, I'm planning on spawn camping. If you're playing fair, you're doing it wrong._

 

ah i see. I assumed a few things like you'd have family in other rooms you need to get to. Also when most of us hear a noise in the house we go and investigate instead of hopping in our ghillie suits and putting our sights on the bedroom door.


----------



## splaz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KenW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My two favorites are the Sig 220 with tritium night sights and a T-Kote finish and the Steyr Aug in black. As far as I know, only 100 of the black Augs made it to the US. _

 

The F88 Steyr is the only gun I've ever shot, considering I was a complete novice it seems very accurate and forgiving. The range instructor let off a reasonably accurate burst one handed. I got 26/30, format was roughly people sized rectangle targets would pop up at 75, 150 and 300m, in no particular order, usually 1 sometimes 2 would pop up and you have 5 seconds in either case, 1 bullet for each target, I was prone.

 Seriously doubt the government here would let good citizens have one.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

KenW 

 the AUG really fall apart in your hands?


----------



## Old Pa

It's hard to type when you're crying. I have the immeasurable pleasure of having had two sweet and good spaniel girls who are no longer with me. In fact, "Old Pa" got hung on me twenty years ago when I came upstairs with my new Brittany pup Jenny (motto: "Always with Old Pa") cradled in my arms. Maggie (motto: "Let's Go!") converted me to Springers; she was always loyal and true. Since both of these girls were real pistols, what better way to commemorate them?






 The Jenny gun is a stainless 3" heavy barrel .357Mag J-frame Smith&Wesson with Pachmayr grippers. This revolver, IMHO, is the finest "kit gun" Smith ever built. Light, compact, and powerful, it is "good in the woods." And, you will note, no "kiddie" locks; S&W stopped making revolvers when they came up with that idiocy. It lives in my Tumi briefcase when we're not out in the woods together. The Maggie gun is a Kahr P45 3.6" barrel .45ACP ("the one true caliber") and was good to go as stock. Its ergometrics and intuitive operating controls make it, again IMHO, the best .45ACP carry gun available today. It lives in my 511 vest or on my hip. My girls may be gone, but they are always with their Pa. And just like when they were covering me with their zeal and courage and hair and spit, they won't let any harm befall me on their new watches.

 I am not looking forward to selecting the next one of these.


----------



## Spareribs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KenW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'm not slamming you about your post, but it strikes me as odd that folks are so upset about this thread.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I don't think people are upset about this thread but we have become brainwashed by the media of gun deaths all over America. As a result, when any topic of guns come up, people will get scared. The same with nudity here as well. People are too uptight about guns and natural sexuality.

 I'm not scared. I used to work at a firing range with angry macho guys.


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_KenW 

 the AUG really fall apart in your hands?_

 

Fall apart in my hands?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not sure what you mean.


----------



## Gautama

For someone who wants to get into guns, whats a good site for info?


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think people are upset about this thread but we have become brainwashed by the media of gun deaths all over America. As a result, when any topic of guns come up, people will get scared. The same with nudity here as well. People are too uptight about guns and natural sexuality.

 I'm not scared. I used to work at a firing range with angry macho guys._

 

Good points, part is our own lack of knowledge about a subject. We tend to squash what we do not understand.


----------



## trains are bad

Quote:


 Good points, part is our own lack of knowledge about a subject. We tend to squash what we do not understand. 
 

Ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds...

  Quote:


 For someone who wants to get into guns, whats a good site for info? 
 

thehighroad.org


----------



## KYTGuy

GAUTAMA: Easiest way is to go to a local Gun Club/Sportsman's Club, and meet and talk with the members there. I don't know how old you are, but if you are male, and under 18, you could get with the Boy Scouts, as they have and sponsor gun training activities, that would be cheaper than just doing it yourself. If you are older than 18, or are Female, just use the Local Gun Club. If you are too far from a club, or are unable to fit it into your schedule, then you might want to Join the NRA, (even if you are based outside of the U.S.)and they have DVDs and text-based courses and info that will help get you started.

 Like nearly any hobby I have in my experience, the people you will meet will be happy to teach/advise/help you enjoy the ins and outs of the pursuit.


----------



## KYTGuy

And for any young readers, Air-Rifles are a great way to start, even in severely restrictive areas. You can buy Air-rifles and Air-pistols that you can shoot inside your house (with parental permission) that will allow you to train yourself in almost all aspects of shooting.

 You will have to read, read, read, and then practice, practice, practice to get good (all under the watchful eye of a responsible adult). 

 Air-Rifles are serious arms for minor pests, absolutely the cheapest form of projectile arms training( less than .5 cents per shot!), and are useful in the real world. They are NOT Toys, nor are they any safer when mishandled. They are great fun when handled properly, and are a good way to include others who might have more trepidation if offered a FIREARM. I started training my Daughter on my Air Rifle when she was about 8. She was the best shot of her entire wing when she went into the Air Force last year. Many of her young friends came over and shot the Air-Rifle inside our house during their childhoods. I have used the same Air Rifle (A real fine piece, made by Fienwerkbau of West Germany, in 1975) for years.


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_










 It's hard to type when you're crying._

 

Not to detract from the thread or topic, but I can certainly relate to those feelings toward your dogs. As a young boy, my absolute best friend in the world was a German Shep. He developed a calcium deficiency in his hip/hindquarters and the decision to put him down came from me.....a young boy. Absolutely broke my heart. I refused to allow myself to become attached to another animal for nearly 40 years.....until a Cavalier King Charles entered my life via my wife. I've never loved an animal the way I love that one. Even the thought of losing him brings me to tears and he's sitting in my lap right now!! I enjoy every day with him but have no doubt it will be supremely painful on the day we must say goodbye.

 Hold on to your memories of the dear one. I can imagine how you feel everytime you see those pics. With that, I'll let the thread get back on topic.


----------



## Old Pa

How do you get two spaniel girls wound up tighter than two dollar watches? Get out the bird guns! For over twenty years, the Spaniels Fall Vacation has centered on my girls running around in the deep woods with the Pa looking for grouse with one light short shotgun or another.






 The top two over-and-unders are Winchester Model 101s in the light English variant with straight stocks and grade 2 wood. They have fixed chokes and have been fitted to me. Fit is important in a shotgun, as the gun joins with you in the act of pointing and shooting. The 12 gauge is on top of the 20 gauge. #3 is a Classic Doubles 201 in 20 gauge also straight stocked with grade 2 walnut, which is a rendition of a Winchester Model 23 made after Wichester's Japanese partner went BK. These doubles have barrels between 24 and 25 inches in length. These doubles are as good of guns as I am willing to buy to carry in the field. 

 #4 is a Benelli Super 90 semiautomatic in 20 gauge with synthetic stock and a 24 inch tube. It is extremely light weight and quick; my current favorite. On the bottom is a Benelli Super 90 in 12 gauge with a 28 inch tube that works well for shotgun games like sporting clays. The Benellis, like most modern shotguns, have interchangeable choke tubes.

 The walking for grouse that we do is generally in tight cover; a thirty yard shot is exceptionally long. What is needed is a light short shotgun which will pattern an ounce of 7 !/2 shot in the place you are looking as quickly as you can think about doing it. The 20 gauges here do that job admirably. Pheasant require greater range and larger shot; that's where the two 12 gauges really shine. Light shotguns are joys at both the beginning and end of the day when there is much carrying and relatively little shooting. An experienced grouse hunter once said "Guns don't kill grouse; boots kill grouse." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will go through 200 or 300 shells on clays warming up for the season, but rarely go through one box of 25 shells in a season in the field.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2 on the scared 

 i hope no one actually carries these things with them_

 

Sure do, just saw the stats for the state of Florida. CCW holders are 890 times less likely to be involved in a firearms offense than the average Floridian. Nationwide, the likelihood of them committing a crime is about 1.5 percent lower than Law Enforcement officers who are well below the national average.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up an H+K P7 M8._

 

That's pretty, I think I need one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that what most people don't realise is most of these are purchased over and extended period of time._

 

Speak for yourself... They seem to show up at my house pretty fast! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"It's not like we go out and get a new one every 6 months."

 How true- I bought 3 last month._

 

Heh, my buddy! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check out Doubletapammo.com for TRUE 10mm power loads. I personally love my 10mm (Tanfoglio Limited Custom). One of the most fun calibers I have found._

 

I use them for all my carry ammo! Excellent supplier.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My preferred cartridge is Federal's T223D (40 gr HP), which is based around an overdriven varmint bullet. Federal's testing shows that it penetrates roughly 6" in bare ballistic gelatin._

 

You're a danger to yourself with that load. The FBI considers 12-18" of penetration in bare gelatin to be the required performance for using against people.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's hard to type when you're crying. I have the immeasurable pleasure of having had two sweet and good spaniel girls who are no longer with me._

 

Sorry to hear that Old Pa...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Jenny gun is a stainless 3" heavy barrel .357Mag J-frame Smith&Wesson with Pachmayr grippers. This revolver, IMHO, is the finest "kit gun" Smith ever built. Light, compact, and powerful, it is "good in the woods." And, you will note, no "kiddie" locks; S&W stopped making revolvers when they came up with that idiocy._

 

I have the same thing, it's one of my favorite carry pieces. Great gun!


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 Also when most of us hear a noise in the house we go and investigate instead of hopping in our ghillie suits and putting our sights on the bedroom door. 
 

And most of you do it wrong. If you truly know the noise in the house is someone who shouldn't be in your house, Investigating will only get you killed. I would rather have my life than my TV and stereo. The best thing you can do is call the cops and hunker down in the bedroom and warn them that you are armed. If they still choose to come in my bedroom....


----------



## CaseJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CaseJ beautiful piece your dad carries. Any reason he is using those sideslabs instead of something in cocobolo or similar? My issue would be with being slippery. Thanks.




_

 

It came with cocobolo but the pattern on it with my dads FBI holster rubs on his back and he wanted something more comfortable because he carries it a lot. Also he has mother of pearl pocket knife and watch so everything matches.


----------



## CaseJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the ppl on here are probably 99% responsible etc. No offence intended.

 I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death). I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. This kind of warehouse would be best in industrial suburbs etc, not next to townhall  I think there would be less incidents with kids in homes and crazy idiots taking them to public places with only malicious intent._

 

Ide like to chime in on using it for CCW purpose. My father is a jeweler and picks up at some times 50k+ worth of items in his briefcase which brings unwanted attention to him. Like he always tells me he doesn't carry his gun to protect the Money but rather if something happens he is able to make sure he is going to be around for my brother and I. There has been close calls before of people following us to our car or when we are walking and all my dad does is stop and put his hand on it so its known that he is carrying which i believe has stopped a lot of potential problems. This is completely justified in my eyes and i plan to do the same on my 21st B-Day next year.


----------



## Old Pa

Looks like next month I get to go on another Prairie Poodle Safari with my friend from Illinois. I know of no better way to develop good practical long range accuracy skills over largely unknown ranges than prairie dog shooting. And accuracy is of the utmost importance when you want the game DRT (dead right there) and not maimed. Wind and distance provide constantly changing variables. And previous trips have shown me I have yet to make any real impact on the poodle populations. South Dakota poisoning programs do far more to indiscriminately affect the prairie ecology.






 My long range .22 is on top; a Remington Model 700V (left hand) with 26" barrel. It wears a Leupold LRT 8.5-25x40mm with varmint dot and scope leveler. It has been fitted with a Timney trigger breaking cleanly at 2# and a VAIS compensator which allows me to spot for myself. The performance of modern polymer tipped varmint bullets has to be experienced to be believed. Second is my custom AR built for me by JP Performance on a Bushmaster forged lower. It has a forged DPMS upper, free-floated heavy 24 inch Williams barrel, adjustable gas block, aluminum tubular handgrip, and JP Performance trigger and hammer spring. It's wearing a 6.5-20x40mm Leupold LRT with scope leveler. With a single round magazine and used as a single shot, most of the heat is extracted with the case and the rifle never gets too hot. I load all my own ammunition for the centerfires.

 The third rifle is a Ruger 10/22M in .22WMR wearing a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm scope. It really likes Federal Premium .22WMR ammunition with the 32grain Sierra bullet. The bottom rifle is a Ruger 10/22T with 20" hammerforged heavy barrel and wearing Leupold 4.5-14x40mm scope. It really like Federal's Ultra Match .22LR standard velocity. Both Rugers are wearing Fajen laminated stocks of traditional target profiles, both are fitted with Clark's excellent trigger kits, and both have had their receivers drilled to allow cleaning from the breach. With the .22-250 Savage Striker I showed you earlier, these make up my varmint battery.


----------



## Ingo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CaseJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_




_

 

What caliber is that Ruger #1 in this picture? I have always wanted to get a #1 in a big-game caliber.


----------



## gpalmer

Hey Old Pa, I've seen those poly tipped bullets in 30/06 and was wondering what their benefits would be. Any thoughts?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Old Pa, I've seen those poly tipped bullets in 30/06 and was wondering what their benefits would be. Any thoughts?_

 

Polymer tip rifle bullets have been a significant recent improvement. They are well worth considering. There are three completely different applications they work in; you have to make sure you are getting the right ones for your purpose. In all applications the polymer tips resist tip deformation and improve ballistic coefficient (how well a bullet flies over long range). And remember: bullet placement (accuracy) is the most important thing.

 Varmint: on the thin jacketed varmint loads these things drop back like wedges upon target impact and turn the bullets into little hand grenades. No real penetration, massive explosive expansion and energy dissipation. Read: thin skinned small game. Reprentative bullets are Sierra's Blitz and Hornady's VMax.

 Expanding Big Game: the ideal expanding big game bullet upon target impact blows up to five times bore diameter, and barely makes it completely through the critter, falling to the ground on the other side, but leaving two hole to bleed the game out. Back in the real world, we are happy with a three bore expansion and complete penetration. Polymer tipped big game bullets are one way to effectively accomplish this as long as they are loaded (and hit the game) within their effective operating speeds. I like Hornady's Interbond series and lots of folks like Nosler and Barnes.

 Target/Match (non expanding): These are decided to whistle on through the target. Enter at 2500 feet per second, depart at 2400FPS. While they have the increased accuracy benefits of no tip deformation/loss of shape and increased ballistic coefficient, they do not effectively transfer energy to the target for shocking stopping power. Kind of like Full Metal Jacket military rounds. Hornady AMax and Sierra Match Kings are of this type. Do not use if over penetration is an issue.

 There is also a new series of Hornady with soft plastic tips for use in tubular magazines where the bullets endure recoil lines up tip to primer. This use to be the realm of flat bullet tips so as not to accidentally set off a primer with a hard pointy tip in the magazine during recoil. The new Hornady line alows improved ballistic performance when the soft pointed tip gets sharp again in the chamber.

 This is probably more than you wanted to know, but at this point whenever I'm discussing ballistics I am forced to bring up the ballistic topic of sectional density. Just so I can say I'm not referring to the women in East Texas.


----------



## gpalmer

That wasn't too much at all. I was very curious about the terminal ballistics which you've addressed nicely. It was the Interbond rounds I was looking at. Seemed like a good idea to keep the tip in better condition and I like the light magnum ballistics though I haven't shot enough of them to have a good idea how they mate with my gun. Currently there are times I take a mag of lead tipped bullets out of my model 700 and they are deformed at the tip. Not a good thing if you care about accuracy. I'll give the Interbond a try. Since I mostly punch paper and I've got a lot of Federal match sitting around it might be a while. I found it very curious that I couldn't find this sort of information on Hornady's site but durned if I could find it and I spent a couple hours looking for it.


----------



## Hermitt

Altho I've grown up around guns all my life (stepfather was a small arms instructor, M-1 Garrand sharpshooter and marksman in the Air Force) the only 'firearms I currently have in the house are these.

 Baikal Izh46M









 My pride & jpy Steyer LP2 (10 meter match pistol)









 And my CO2 Walther CP99 Trophy 'plinker'









 The steyer is a fantastic prescision target pistol and I can shoot it indoors from right here in my den very inexpensively. I use a scuba bottle to refill the air cylinder. $5 worth of clean diver's air last me about a year. Right now I'm working on trying to get 10 shot groups at 10 meters (33 feet) about the size of a dime, single hand and open sights.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was the Interbond rounds I was looking at._

 

It's my understanding that the Hornady Interbonds also utilizes an adhesive technology to keep the core from separating from the jacket like some more expensive bullets. More expensive? With the way commodities like lead and copper took off for the last few years, all bullets are expensive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kind of like cigars. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I'm loading the 180 grain Interbond in the .300WSM for big game.


----------



## necropimp

hermitt... not exactly firearms... but nice 

 i've always wanted one of those walther P99 air pistols but could never bring myself to pay $150 for one


----------



## Hermitt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hermitt... not exactly firearms... but nice 

 i've always wanted one of those walther P99 air pistols but could never bring myself to pay $150 for one_

 

Actually in some countries, such as Canada, anything over 500fps (like the $1300 Styer at 520+ fps) *is* considered as a firearm. The CO2 Walther is the Trophy model that has the nickel top and came with the red dot was around $230 and is around 420fps.


----------



## Spareribs

One of my favorite films is Bowling for Columbine, where there is comparisons of Canadian gun owners vs the American gun owners. Canadians are more nice than Americans generally.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Canadians are more nice than Americans generally._

 

Niceness counts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 With you guys.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You ever hear of editing?


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of my favorite films is Bowling for Columbine, where there is comparisons of Canadian gun owners vs the American gun owners. Canadians are more nice than Americans generally._

 


 An armed society is a polite society...

 Do you realise how much disinformation there is in that movie don't you?


----------



## CaseJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ingo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What caliber is that Ruger #1 in this picture? I have always wanted to get a #1 in a big-game caliber._

 

Hey man its a .308


----------



## Ingo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of my favorite films is Bowling for Columbine, where there is comparisons of Canadian gun owners vs the American gun owners. Canadians are more nice than Americans generally._

 

The only thing that Bowling for Columbine showed me was that Michael Moore can verbally attack an addle minded 80+ year old man without any reservations. Too bad the NRA didn't have a sharp-tounged spokesman there to embarass Moore and keep him away from the elderly. 

 Seriously, people who are involved in the "gun culture" are 99% of the time people who think first of protecting themselves and others. 

 Spareribs, you must live in a heavily populated city. If you get out to the country once in a while you might find concentrations of nice Americans.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually in some countries, such as Canada, anything over 500fps (like the $1300 Styer at 520+ fps) *is* considered as a firearm. The CO2 Walther is the Trophy model that has the nickel top and came with the red dot was around $230 and is around 420fps._

 

well that's canada... they're... strange up there


----------



## rincewind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you willing to do the same with your audio gear? You don't really NEED to have it available all the time do you?_

 

Of course not. You can't hurt people with headphones (maybe garrotting? lol).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear lord man. Are you amoral?_

 

No, I'm not amoral: Ideally said 'invader' wouldn't have access to a firearm either. But we know that's never going to happen, so moot point. 

 Anyway, some impressive (in some respects) looking implements shown on here, enjoy the thread!


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ingo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... you must live in a heavily populated city. If you get out to the country once in a while you might find concentrations of nice Americans._

 

You know although I agree that large cities tend to dehumanize its residents I believe we can still find nice people in them. Granted you have to look.


----------



## setmenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Altho I've grown up around guns all my life (stepfather was a small arms instructor, M-1 Garrand sharpshooter and marksman in the Air Force) the only 'firearms I currently have in the house are these.

 Baikal Izh46M










 My pride & jpy Steyer LP2 (10 meter match pistol)










 The steyer is a fantastic prescision target pistol and I can shoot it indoors from right here in my den very inexpensively. I use a scuba bottle to refill the air cylinder. $5 worth of clean diver's air last me about a year. Right now I'm working on trying to get 10 shot groups at 10 meters (33 feet) about the size of a dime, single hand and open sights. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 ooo, I would love to get my hands on that Baikal!
 I agree about the Steyer,I have shot that model on many occasions.
 My own pistol is a Morini 162E.
 The electronic trigger is a delight, the pistol seems ever so forgiving,even on a bad day I end up with decent groups.
 I also love long range shooting with match air pistols,50 yards is great fun.
 Air 'free' pistol comps are regularly held at my club.

 Unfortunately cartridge pistols were banned in the UK , otherwise I would have built up a fair collection of historic semis by now.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I do still enjoy my muzzle loaders though..

 This is great thread, hope it does not end up closed!


 .


----------



## Old Pa

With a title like "old guns", I guess I should first explain that my idea of "the good old days" is last Tuesday and Wednesday. I admire antique match, wheel, flint, percussion and black powder firearms, but within their own context and era. Since I only own guns that I shoot, my orientation to firearms is based along those lines. And these are my idea of "old guns":






 The top rifle is a Model 1917 Eddystone Enfield in .30-06. It was the principal arm of the American Expeditionary Force to France in 1917. With its powerful cartridge, good protected sights, robust yet balanced construction, and reliable strong action it represents arguably the high point of turnbolt battle rifles. It's equipped with a period shooting sling and an aftermarket trigger kit, but is otherwise stock. With Russian .30-06 surplus ammunition and using iron sights, it's good for the 14" gong at 400 yards with me shooting. You have to get used to Enfield's "****** on close". (Isn't HF's censor software wonderful?)

 The lever action is a Model 1892 Winchester saddle ring carbine in .44-40WCF made in 1921. The design was a midlife contribution from the American firearms genius John Moses Browning, as were most of Wichester's lever action designs. This particular carbine was a gift from my old partner in Chicago after he received it out of his late uncle's estate, who was the original owner. My partner had thought it was chambered in .44Rem Mag, and the strong receiver survived his mistake. It is equipped with a period Marble tang rear sight, has the original rear site dovetail blocked, but is otherwise stock. For me, it is about a 3" gun at 100 yards but has considerable historical, sentimental, and financial value.

 The lower bolt rifle is a Lee SMLE. I can't tell you much of its history other than it's a Mark IV and saw third world service before coming into my hands. The "Smelly" in five variants saw service from 1890 through the Russian debacle in Afghanistan and was the principal rifle for the Commonwealth through World War II. This is the rifle that oversaw the zenith and sunset of the British Empire. It's .303 cartridge also went through several developmental evolutions and still remains the standard for testing Soviet body armor. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a fairly recent aquisition of mine and shoots pretty loose.

 The bottom rifle is a Remington Model 1909 .22S/L/LR pump/slide/trombone. It is the takedown version favored by woodsmen and that is the dissassembly thumbscrew you see on the receiver above the trigger. The slide/trombone/pump category of .22LR rifles was extremely popular and competitive right after the turn of the twentieth century. Many really fine rifles (and more than a few real dogs) of this type were manufactured in the U.S. This is a good one. It is my first firearm and was given to me on my twelfth birthday by a maternal grandmother. It had been my maternal grandfather's, who died before I was born and whose first name I share, and wears a replacement cherrywood buttstock carved by him. Look at the drop that was customary in this .22 and in the Model 1892! I had loaned this Remington to my father after I was out of the house so that he would have something available for pests, but his idea of casing it was to wrap it in an unwashed salty doormat, and so now its bluing is splotched. Probably the source for another thread, but after a lifetime of lecturing you on personal responsibility and taking care of your and others property, how many of you have had your father wreck something that they knew was dear to you and then give you the "contractor's shrug"?

 All of these firearms represent the dawn of the modern era of firearm design and construction, utilizing smokeless propellants, jacketed bullets, and modern manufacture techniques. The fit and finish of all of these bears witness to the makers' pride and the customers' expectations. It's both a continuity of history and culture and a time that's gone and not coming back.


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course not. You can't hurt people with headphones (maybe garrotting? lol).



 No, I'm not amoral: Ideally said 'invader' wouldn't have access to a firearm either. But we know that's never going to happen, so moot point. 

 Anyway, some impressive (in some respects) looking implements shown on here, enjoy the thread!_

 


 sigh... in my opinion... I do not find the difference between getting a gun or not.. I mean, weapons are weapons... they would not kill unless someone is operating them. Lets say, if a person is decided to kill you... he don't really need a gun to do does he? there are bunch of material around us that can become a murder weapon. I do not think the restriction of owning gun is such a good idea since most likely, the guns that are used for crime are either stolen or unregister guns from the black market. If the bad guys can get them easily, why can't us normal citizens keep one just for our own sake 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Death in violent crime is not right, but I think it is more wrong if the guilty one was able to survive and walk away simply because he owns a gun and the victim is defenseless. Is funny how people think guns are scary when they never live in an environment that guns are not allow. But to be true.... people don't usually just pull out a gun in a middle of the street and street and start shooting on a daily bases. well.. at least where I live things does not happen like this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still remember the videos that my heath teacher played for us explaining the danger and "horrible" tragedy involved with guns, but seriously.. when I see the video, I was laughing my ass off in the middle of the video, because all those so call "tragedy" are due to the stupidity of parents that do not keep weapons safe from their children, and most importantly, they did not teach their kids the way that guns work (perhaps, judging from the videos even the parents don't even know... I mean... what are the chances of some dumb ass that left bullets inside a gun when they store it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) The kids just pick up the gun, without apparent reason... pulls the trigger when it is facing their friends or toward them self hmm..... seriously... if they have just any knowledge toward gun.. or even play with a air soft... they know they are not suppose to do that.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In my opinion, parents should at least warn their kids and teach them about gun safeties when they buy a gun... not teaching them how to kill, but to know how it works so they won't kill them self in some stupid actions.

 And also, yes, I love guns... probably gonna collect them after I enter society. not now, since I am in college.

 But here is my history,
 I think I start playing with Air soft at around 4 years old... it was a gift from my dad... it was a small gas gun.... which... my little sis torn them later apart when she was around 5 years old (still don't get how she did that though.. because she torn apart two gas gun in the toy room with out tool or anything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
 My god father gave me a spring loaded gun for my 8th years old birth day then receive another one at my 10 year old birth date... My father constant telling me stories about his job when he was in the military and what not to do with a weapon...
 After I came to America, one of the friend of my father showed us his collection of hand guns and automatic weapons(for got what they are called )
 I learned more about the caution that I need to take to handle guns after that.
 In my consideration, as long as you handle something carefully and knowing what you are doing, you should be fine.
 I mean, when you are driving, you are literally strolling a machine with highly explosive liquid and ready to use fire/spark that will ignite the gas at anytime, and consider the death cause by car accidents every year, Why I didn't see the country prohibit average citizens from owning cars, and let all of us take buses instead, I mean, it is more energy efficient and also safer, right?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't think simply saying guns are not allow because it scares you because it is a weapon make much since, since people can do so much worse with just average, consumer products that we do everyday as long as you use your brain to think what they can be use as a weapon.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ You have to get used to Enfield's "****** on close". (Isn't HF's censor software wonderful?)
_

 

i wouldn't call it an enfield action

 the british P13, P14, and US Model 1917 use a british variant of the 1895 mauser action (the P13 was a result of british soldiers being at the reciving end of some mausers during the boer war and saying "i want what they have"... same thing happened to the US in the spanish-american war which is where the M1903 came from)

 i should also mention i wish i had a M1917 (as well as a M1903) in my collection


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i wouldn't call it an enfield action

 the british P13, P14, and US Model 1917 use a british variant of the 1895 mauser action (the P13 was a result of british soldiers being at the reciving end of some mausers during the boer war and saying "i want what they have"... same thing happened to the US in the spanish-american war which is where the M1903 came from)_

 

From Smith & Smith's classic authoritative reference Small Arms of the World, 10th Revised Edition, at page 622:


> "The entry of the United States into World War I found this country with a very limited supply of M1903 rifles on hand . . . . and only two plants tooled to produce this rifle. Three large gun plants . . . . were completing large contracts for the British-designed caliber .303 P14 *(Enfield)* (_emphasis added_) rifles. . . . The P14 had been originally designed as the P13 for a rimless caliber .280 cartridge; it was not difficult to modify the design to use the U.S. caliber.30 M1906 cartridge. Additional modifications were made to simplify production and to standardize parts between plants and in this manner the U.S. caliber .30 Rifle Model 1917 *(or Enfield as it is commonly known)* (_emphasis added_) was born.
> 
> The Model 1917 is a modified Mauser with frontal locking lugs that c**ks,
> 
> ...


If Enfield is good enough for Smith & Smith in referring to the Model 1917, it's good enough for me. I have _never_ heard the Model 1917 referred to as a "Mauser", although it certainly has some characteristics of Paul Mauser's famous and long-lived design as do most modern turnbolt rifles.

 While the Boers started out fighting the British with 8mm Mausers, most of them were using captured SMLEs by the end of the war for obvious logistical reasons. Americans carrying .30-40 Krags in Cuba were most impressed with the Spanish troops' 7x57mm Mausers, especially the velocity of the bullets. It took two more tries however, to get the U.S. from the .30-40 to the .30-06. I had a Krag years ago, but found it fragilly complex and ballistically unimpressive.


----------



## Hermitt

A few years ago my son bought one of those enfield .303 from a local Big 5 sporting goods store for like $85. They were selling them as deer rifles


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A few years ago my son bought one of those enfield .303 from a local Big 5 sporting goods store for like $85. They were selling them as deer rifles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yup, they were up to $120 when I got mine. But the clerk let me look through the eight or ten they had in. All the bores looked pretty clean and this one had the best wood (read: least damage). I got a machined rear aperture sight through Numrich to replace the very basic flip peep that came on it, got a couple hundred pieces of brass, some dies, couple hundred 180 grain .303s, primer and powder and it was like going back to the African veldt, the Egyptian plains, India, the WWI trenches, across the frozen tundra, Sword Beach and Operation Marketgarden, across North Africa, and in the jungles of Borneo at a time when the sun never set on the British Empire.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Altho I've grown up around guns all my life (stepfather was a small arms instructor, M-1 Garrand sharpshooter and marksman in the Air Force) the only 'firearms I currently have in the house are these.

 My pride & jpy Steyer LP2 (10 meter match pistol)









 The steyer is a fantastic prescision target pistol and I can shoot it indoors from right here in my den very inexpensively. I use a scuba bottle to refill the air cylinder. $5 worth of clean diver's air last me about a year. Right now I'm working on trying to get 10 shot groups at 10 meters (33 feet) about the size of a dime, single hand and open sights. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've got an Anschutz air rifle that uses compressed air too. I really like that feature of it, more convenient than CO2.

 In regards to the Enfields, Pa, you might like better the sights on the No. 4 Mk II. The rear sight has the battle sight but flips up for a micrometer sight. I haven't shot mine in a long time, ran out of sources for cheap ammo.


----------



## Hermitt

The Anschutz 9003 without sights runs about $2400 at Pilkguns.com 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've kindof got my sights on the Steyer LG110 with sights for about $2300. Still a lot of dough tho. Compressed air is really ecconomical when you own your own scuba bottles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -> http://www.pilkguns.com/precisionar.shtml


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Anschutz 9003 without sights runs about $2400 at Pilkguns.com 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've kindof got my sights on the Steyer LG110 with sights for about $2300. Still a lot of dough tho. Compressed air is really ecconomical when you own your own scuba bottles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -> http://www.pilkguns.com/precisionar.shtml_

 

I can't remember what my model is off hand but I seem to think that it's a 2002.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In regards to the Enfields, Pa, you might like better the sights on the No. 4 Mk II. The rear sight has the battle sight but flips up for a micrometer sight. I haven't shot mine in a long time, ran out of sources for cheap ammo._

 

That's exactly what I got from Numrich and dropped right into the receiver cuts. Works like a charm. Don't really know what accuracy potential there is with the locking lugs on the back of the bolt. I am my own source of cheap ammunition.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's exactly what I got from Numrich and dropped right into the receiver cuts. Works like a charm. Don't really know what accuracy potential there is with the locking lugs on the back of the bolt. I am my own source of cheap ammunition. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh, you do have a No. 4 Mk. 2. I didn't really look at the picture. My K98k's shot better than my Enfield but I have more fun with the Enfield. The action seems so slick to me. But yeah, I like the old milsurps. They're tough work horses and are fun to collect and shoot. Just wish I still had all of mine. Maybe a few years down the road I'll try to pick up a 1903.


----------



## Hermitt

Something i do for kicks is buy a cheap bag of paintballs and use them as targets out in the yard


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From Smith & Smith's classic authoritative reference Small Arms of the World, 10th Revised Edition, at page 622:



			"The entry of the United States into World War I found this country with a very limited supply of M1903 rifles on hand . . . . and only two plants tooled to produce this rifle. Three large gun plants . . . . were completing large contracts for the British-designed caliber .303 P14 *(Enfield)* (emphasis added) rifles. . . . The P14 had been originally designed as the P13 for a rimless caliber .280 cartridge; it was not difficult to modify the design to use the U.S. caliber.30 M1906 cartridge. Additional modifications were made to simplify production and to standardize parts between plants and in this manner the U.S. caliber .30 Rifle Model 1917 *(or Enfield as it is commonly known)* (emphasis added) was born.

 The Model 1917 is a modified Mauser with frontal locking lugs that c**ks, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*as the British Lee Enfield* (emphasis added) on the forward push of the bolt."
		
Click to expand...

If Enfield is good enough for Smith & Smith in referring to the Model 1917, it's good enough for me. I have never heard the Model 1917 referred to as a "Mauser", although it certainly has some characteristics of Paul Mauser's famous and long-lived design as do most modern turnbolt rifles.

 While the Boers started out fighting the British with 8mm Mausers, most of them were using captured SMLEs by the end of the war for obvious logistical reasons. Americans carrying .30-40 Krags in Cuba were most impressed with the Spanish troops' 7x57mm Mausers, especially the velocity of the bullets. It took two more tries however, to get the U.S. from the .30-40 to the .30-06. I had a Krag years ago, but found it fragilly complex and ballistically unimpressive._

 

a few notes... i should have rephrased while the rifle can be called an enfield because of where it was originally designed and made it's action design is 99% mauser ... before the model 1898 action all mauser action designs were **** on close (possibly not the 1871 or 1888 models but i haven't actually held either in complete condition (have held some of the "wallhanger grade" boltless rifles) and can't find any info on if it's **** on close or **** on open)

 the boers used the model 1895 mauser chambered for 7x57

 in fact i've seen a couple of articles (forget where) that were titled "britain's mauser" and "the mauser from enfield" so they have been referred to as mausers before

 we've both made some good points and it's obvious why the enfield modified mauser was replaced in both countries that used them... the brits had comparable accuracy with their lee-enfields but the lee-enfields also had a smoother action allowing for better rate of fire and larger magazine capacity

 while the US m1903 simply had a lighter weight, smaller profile, and it was cheaper to manufacture

 and within the next week i should have another mosin coming in... a 91/59 (91/30 converted to a carbine... many theories exist on why these carbines were made... some say security police reserves, some have suggested a possible cuban connection, i've suggested a zombie invasion of murmansk, it's even been suggested it was as simple as a soviet project to simply create a job for people to do


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the boers used the model 1895 mauser chambered for 7x57_

 

Pakenham's The Boer War, Illustrated Edition, 1993, Random House (which if you have not seen you would probably enjoy; lots of period photographs) states Krueger in 1897 ordered a second rifle purchased for each burgher or 37,000 8mm Mausers and 2 million rounds of 8mm Mauser ammunition before the British blockade was instituted. 7x57mm Mausers were available, and I'm sure they were utilized, but the vast majority ordered and utilized were 8mm Mauser.


----------



## Old Pa

The lovers of powerful precision among us owe a debt of thanks to the Allied Occupation Command in Germany after the end of WWII. When German citizens, with strong cultural attachments to firearm target shooting matches, approached them to restart this sport, Occupation Command agreed with the proviso of "no firearms". And the high end airgun market was born.







 Winter in the Northwoods would be much longer without my indoor 10 meter range. With precision target airguns, you can practice all aspects of shooting without blast or flinch. And the range of modern high end airguns is broad; I have a friend who has taken buffalo with his heavy airgun.

 Before compressed air and new generation CO2 airguns became the rage, there were spring piston airguns. All my precision airguns are of this type. The top rifle is and RWS Model 75 left hand recoiless .177 match rifle. It shoots way better than I can. The 3rd rifle is a RWS Model 48 .177 that drives a heavy match pellet over 1000fps and is just the answer to suburban "agricultural pests". The pistol on the bottom is a RWS Model 6M fitted with left hand adjustable platform grips. It is also recoiless and in .177 caliber.

 The second rifle down is a Crossman that, while it is over twenty year old, is the modern variant of my "pump up pellet gun" from the '60s. My original had wood furniture and Crossman has since cheaped out ala Daisy. This is my "air-drop-gun" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 provided as a gift by a friend for a special application. You see the city I live in several decades ago took the expedient of amending their common "no discharge of a firearm within city limits" ordinance. The amendment reads that for purposes of the ordinance all airguns are defined as firearms.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So if one of my bunny-hugging neighbors rats me out for "permanently relocating" some agricultural pests, the Crossman is what the PO's get to seize. Hasn't happened yet.


----------



## KYTGuy

Hey OLD PA:

 You can buy .177 cal air rifles from "out of the back of a semi sales" for around $30 - made in Romania, break action to ****...horrible accuracy, but then you can keep the Crosman! Loan the Crosman to some young soul needing a piece for learning.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KYTGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can buy .177 cal air rifles from "out of the back of a semi sales" for around $30 - made in Romania, break action to ****...horrible accuracy, but then you can keep the Crosman!_

 

I got my father one of them fine Chinese airguns back in the early 80s, side-c**king spring piston, fit and feel (and sights 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) of a fine Type 56 (SKS) with accuracy to match. Kind of like having this Crosman around for its stated purpose.


----------



## Gautama

I found that my Dad has the Gamo P23 as shown above, I might pick that up and do some target shooting in the yard this summer. Gonna have to stock up on pellets and CO2.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KYTGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey OLD PA:

 You can buy .177 cal air rifles from "out of the back of a semi sales" for around $30 - made in Romania, break action to ****...horrible accuracy, but then you can keep the Crosman! Loan the Crosman to some young soul needing a piece for learning._

 

horrible accuracy? mine must be a fluke then... it's a bit underpowered but i don't mind.. i only bought it because i wanted a cheap break barrel for plinking so i ordered one from century when i bought my K98k


----------



## pne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my father one of them fine Chinese airguns back in the early 80s, side-c**king spring piston, fit and feel (and sights 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) of a fine Type 56 (SKS) with accuracy to match. Kind of like having this Crosman around for its stated purpose. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

i have a cheap chinese airgun too. I use cheap pellets in it and I'm not afraid of tossing it around or getting dirt in the barrel. It can't shoot groupings the size of a pinhead but it's still nice to have something to kick around.


----------



## Old Pa

The .44 Remington Magnum is the linear descendant of the .44-40 Winchester and the .44 Special cartridges. Elmer Keith and his associates spent a good deal of the first half of the 20th century determining how strong then modern revolvers such as the S&W Triple-Lock in .44SPL were, and they found these then new revolvers were a good deal stronger than the loads then available in .44SPL. Keith talked Smith &Wesson into making a revolver chambered for a .44Spl case 1/10th inch longer than the .44SPL (much the same as a .357Mad case is 1/10th inch longer than a .38SPL) to get more powder capacity while preventing the new longer cartridge from being chambered in older weaker revolvers. S&W agreed with the proviso that Keith must talk Remington into producing the ammunition. Keith did and the rest is history.

 For me, the .44Rem Mag, besides being a well balanced and powerful cartridge, is at the power transition point normally separating pistols from long guns and it works well in both. I am quite familiar with the .454s, .460s, .475s, and various .50s (even a .45-70! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and have shown you precision pistols in .22-250 and .308Win, but for me the most useful pistols are light and compact enough to be carried and employed with speed and accuracy at conversational ranges. For me, the .44Rem Mag is at the top of the power scale of what can be put into a sub three pound package. And then there is the American tradition of single cartridges that an outdoorsman may conveniently and effectively employ in both pistols and long guns. The .22LR, the .44-40, the .357Rem Mag, and the .44Rem Mag are all cartridges of this type.






 The three revolvers are all stainless steel S&W 629s in various barrel/frame configurations. They have all been fitted with Pachmayr’s excellent Gripper grips which I find very comfortable and spread and absorb some recoil. They have all had single action trigger return springs installed, had their timing and lock-up tuned, had the forcing cone at the receiver end of their barrels lengthened, and had their mainsprings boned slightly to lighten them. The six inch revolver has a square frame and an unfluted cylinder and is known as the Classic Hunter. The four inch has a light barrel, round butt, and is the Mountain Gun model. The 8 3/8 inch barrel with its round butt is, by fortune of its barrel length, sight radius, and weight, the most pleasant to shoot. It’s consistently good for 2 liter plastic beverage bottles at 100 yards.

 The scoped single shot is an older Thompson Center Contender with a Burris 2-7X scope and a 14 inch barrel. I’ve gotten three inch groups out of it at fifty yards. The lever action carbine as a Winchester Model 94 Trapper with 16” barrel and Williams receiver sights for the Pa’s old eyes. This is a four inch gun at 125yds, which I hold as the maximum prudent game range for the .44Rem Mag cartridge.

 In light guns, the .44Rem Mag’s recoil can be severe. I acquired my lightest revolver, the Mountain Gun, as a used gun. It had obviously not been shot much and when I removed the stock hard plastic Hogue grips I found out why. Under the grips at the back frame there was a significant amount of the previous owner’s blood from where the recoil had evidently split the web of his or her hand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It took me years to discover the secret to enjoying shooting the .44Rem Mag is hardcast lead bullets. Jacketed bullets are harder to force into the rifling lands and up the barrel and the perceived recoil when shooting them is significantly greater. Over ninety per cent of the .44Rem Mag shooting I do these days is with hardcast lead bullets. Hardcast lead bullets are also significantly less expensive than jacketed bullets. I now load four different .44Rem Mag loads; a 240 gr hardcast lead at 1100fps for “general social purposes” in the lighter revolvers, a 240 gr hardcast lead over 2200 powder for heavy target and light game, a 200gr Hornady XTP over 296 powder for deer size game, and a 240gr Hornady XTP for bear defense.


----------



## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ cut to avoid space, read post if you need reference_

 

Buddy, you seriously don't need to be such a dick about it, everybody is allowed their an opinion, let's just not take it that far. Some might strongly disagree with your point of view, as I do, and it IS a very contravertial subject. Of course, it is your choice of how you live your life, but please don't write a page-long slander of someone with a different point of view and how proud you are of yours in a forum dedicated to displaying nice guns.

 Old Pa, Wow, that is a beautiful Winchester. I'd feel like a complete city-slicker-playing-cowboy if I ever got to shoot one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All this gun-talk has got my curiousity piqued and I'm totally thinking of heading out to the range for one of their introductory courses - does this sound like a fun start?


----------



## mrarroyo

Anyone here remembers the 357 maximum?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, Wow, that is a beautiful Winchester. I'd feel like a complete city-slicker-playing-cowboy if I ever got to shoot one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All this gun-talk has got my curiousity piqued and I'm totally thinking of heading out to the range for one of their introductory courses - does this sound like a fun start?_

 

Which Winchester? I've shown you two levers and three shotguns. That intro course sounds fine, just not enough blammo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You want your interest really piqued, get yourself a copy of Unintended Consequences by John Ross from your local library.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone here remembers the 357 maximum?_

 

Sure, an even longer .357 Rem Mag. So much gas pressure they caused actual metal cutting on the bottom of revolvers' topstraps at the front of the cylinder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I toyed with getting a 14" Thompson center barrel for one and seeing what kind of varmint accuracy was available, but that was one gun project I actually walked away from.


----------



## setmenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, an even longer .357 Rem Mag. So much gas pressure they caused actual metal cutting on the bottom of revolvers' topstraps at the front of the cylinder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ._

 

I can understand that with 357 Rem Mag, But I also have gas cutting on the cylinder arbour of my Colt dragoon repro.
 Makes me wonder what alloy is used.
 Wonder whether the original arms suffered similar cutting after many rounds?
 Then again I would imagine modern users would be putting a lot more through the pistol than those of the 1850's.


 .


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, an even longer .357 Rem Mag. So much gas pressure they caused actual metal cutting on the bottom of revolvers' topstraps at the front of the cylinder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I toyed with getting a 14" Thompson center barrel for one and seeing what kind of varmint accuracy was available, but that was one gun project I actually walked away from._

 

I've had the opportunity to shoot a .357 Max SBH and talk to its owner. Not too bad to shoot with very impressive muzzle flash/blast, though I'd rather have one in .30 Carbine.

 Really, the top strap cutting isn't as big of an issue as it's made out to be. Sure, running 125 grainers at half the speed of light isn't advisable, but it's really no different than top strap erosion on a K-frame with heavy 110/125 grain loads. The top strap erosion is self limiting, and forcing cone cracks will render either gun unshootable long before the top strap's structural integrity is ruined. It is an issue on the Scandium J-frames, but S&W provided those with a sacrificial steel shield to protect the top strap. 

 As a side note, my S&W 360 is one of the few guns I'm glad to be rid of. Shooting it with the Hogue Bantam grips was not too dissimilar to slamming a car door onto my hand.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *setmenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can understand that with 357 Rem Mag, But I also have gas cutting on the cylinder arbour of my Colt dragoon repro.
 Makes me wonder what alloy is used._

 

Black powder shouldn't do that. Are you using actual black powder or one of the modern black powder substitutes? Who made your reproduction Dragoon?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As a side note, my S&W 360 is one of the few guns I'm glad to be rid of. Shooting it with the Hogue Bantam grips was not too dissimilar to slamming a car door onto my hand._

 

I had a ten inch .30 Herrett a couple of decades ago. One of the happiest days of my life when I swapped it off. With the wood grips that came with the T/C, it was exactly like hitting a stone wall with a baseball bat. Killed off both ends. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You made the cases up out of .30-30 brass. It was one light load to fireform the shoulder, and one full load to split the neck. Reloading frustration on the hoof.


----------



## trains are bad

I'm sorry if I voiced my opinions a little strongly. It's hard not to get worked up when it seems all you even get about your hobby is negativity, suspicion and accusations. It's like a battle from all sides just being a gun owner sometimes.


----------



## setmenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Black powder shouldn't do that. Are you using actual black powder or one of the modern black powder substitutes? Who made your reproduction Dragoon?_

 


 Good point, I have also used Pyrodex for many rounds.
 It is one of the Colt badged repros.
 Regarding Bp not flame cutting, it certainly does with my
 flintlock.
 As you are probably aware, they used to fit touch hole liners
 made from more resistant metals to the finer guns of years gone by.


----------



## Tarheel

It is a fairly rare WWII German pistol. They only made a few of these early in the war before they discovered the error.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Buddy, you seriously don't need to be such a dick about it, everybody is allowed their an opinion, let's just not take it that far. Some might strongly disagree with your point of view, as I do, and it IS a very contravertial subject. Of course, it is your choice of how you live your life, but please don't write a page-long slander of someone with a different point of view and how proud you are of yours in a forum dedicated to displaying nice guns.

 Old Pa, Wow, that is a beautiful Winchester. I'd feel like a complete city-slicker-playing-cowboy if I ever got to shoot one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All this gun-talk has got my curiousity piqued and I'm totally thinking of heading out to the range for one of their introductory courses - does this sound like a fun start?_

 


 Are you talking about this post?

 Actually I think you're being quite "dick-ish". Did you read his post or just skim it?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We gun owners are tired of people including us in a segment of the population that aren't responsible owners, period. He made some very passionate and heated points in his post. If you were an owner or enthusiast you would understand _*exactly*_ where our frustration comes from. I encourage you to look into the range that you posted, but you need a little background into what we have gone through/go through before you can truly understand where we are coming from...


----------



## AuroraProject

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry if I voiced my opinions a little strongly. It's hard not to get worked up when it seems all you even get about your hobby is negativity, suspicion and accusations. It's like a battle from all sides just being a gun owner sometimes._

 

QFT. There is a certain "stigma" about being a gun owner.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry if I voiced my opinions a little strongly. It's hard not to get worked up when it seems all you even get about your hobby is negativity, suspicion and accusations. It's like a battle from all sides just being a gun owner sometimes._

 

hey man... don't feel you need to apologise. 



 you can't apologise for the way you feel...


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tarheel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is a fairly rare WWII German pistol. They only made a few of these early in the war before they discovered the error._

 

your attempt at humor fails


----------



## skudmunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_your attempt at humor fails_

 

I actually found it quite funny, thanks!

 Anyways, I have a couple of airsoft guns lying around - a gas powered Glock 19 and a spring powered 1911A1


----------



## Hermitt

I really like that TC ther Old PA, Those used to be legal to buy here in Calif till about 2 or 3 years ago. Those are real popular for the sanctioned Metal Sillhoette events. I'd really like to pick up one of these little snake guns -> http://www.bondarms.com/ifirearms.htm. *sigh* can't buy one of these in calif anymore either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I like the 3" Texas Defender in a 45/410


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *setmenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good point, I have also used Pyrodex for many rounds.
 It is one of the Colt badged repros.
 Regarding Bp not flame cutting, it certainly does with my
 flintlock.
 As you are probably aware, they used to fit touch hole liners
 made from more resistant metals to the finer guns of years gone by._

 

I think it's the metal technology of the past. Up until the end of the ninteenth century with the advent of smokeless powder and advance or artillery, metal used in firearms could be quite soft. Witness the now lost art of Damascas barrels. And some Italian and Spanish repro makers continue using soft metal to this day. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Shades of the "Saturday Night Special". Above is my only BP firearm, A Thompson Center Renegade in .54 caliber. It's unique in being left handed (puts the lock away from the eye as caps do sometimes fragment, has a rear aperture sight, and a period trigger job (consisting of a piece of clear neoprene tubing over the skinny trigger to lessen perceived trigger pull 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Before the "in-line" were even imagined, mush less in vogue, I got it and set it up for BP only areas and seasons. BP is fun.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really like that TC ther Old PA, Those used to be legal to buy here in Calif till about 2 or 3 years ago. Those are real popular for the sanctioned Metal Sillhoette events. I'd really like to pick up one of these little snake guns -> http://www.bondarms.com/ifirearms.htm. *sigh* can't buy one of these in calif anymore either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I like the 3" Texas Defender in a 45/410_

 

You made me think of the bottom gun above with your "snake gun" comment. It's a stainless Snake Charmer II in 3" .410. I don't have a lot of use for the .410, but about a decade ago when I was mountain biking the back roads around the cabin for extra exercise during the Spaniels' Fall Vacations, I was seeing a lot of grouse with nothing to use on them. Hence, orange paint on my biking helmet (state law) and the Snake Charmer. With 3" .410 Federal Premium shells, it was quite the caution within 25 yards and I could tie it to my front or back for thr ride. Quite a sight.

 BTW, I was in SoCal for a week in February; that was quite enough.

 The middle gun is the modern Browning of Japanese manufacture (read: coil rather than leaf springs) rendition of the classic John Moses Browning Winchester High Wall single shot lever in .45-70. It wears a Zeiss four power scope, but as you can tell from the globe front sight, it also has a rear adjustable aperture sight for more period dress. Getting this gun to shoot Barnes 400 grain spitzers out to 400 yards with precision is what I credit with shaking my eyeballs loose and finally wrecking my vision.


----------



## necropimp

i also have a thompson center renegade in .54cal... of course mine is right handed, with standard open sights, and the double trigger setup






 mine also has no swivel studs


----------



## archosman

Old Pa is in the running for having the largest armory at the moment...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mine also has no swivel studs_

 

Nice looking piece; more like a Hawken with that trigger guard. Wasn't available in LH when I got mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Swivel studs were an add-on because I tend to have my hands full when I go hunting. Synthetic ram rod helps to avoid the broken ranrod frustration (and occasional injury).


----------



## necropimp

except a hawken has the stock with the brass hardware and that nice patch box in the stock..

 i've considered putting swivel studs on mine.. but this is how my dad kept it and it shall remain in this configuration


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa is in the running for having the largest armory at the moment... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Only in my dreams. The guys with the real armories are too smart to post.


----------



## skudmunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only in my dreams. The guys with the real armories are too smart to post._

 

heh heh


----------



## archosman

Ill say it again...

 Keep the thread on track. If you have a dissenting position then feel free to start your own thread if you want to open this up to debate. You're going to get this closed and I'm not going to apologize for any of my other hobbies. Got it?


----------



## archosman

Does anyone here have any experience with the Walther P22? I've got a friend of mine who I let shoot my Ruger 22/45 and she did well with it. Also did well with my old Ruger Mark II. We went upstairs afterwards to look at a few in the case and she seemed to take a liking to it. It's a tad small in my hands but fit hers pretty good. They also had a Sig Mosquito, but I've read some so-so reports on the web about that one.


----------



## FallenAngel

Any chances of leaving the discussion out of this thread before it gets locked, and at this rate, I don't doubt it's too late?

 Everybody has an opinion on the issue of guns / careless use / right to own, etc, and most are completely beat-your-head-against-the-wall set in it so it's not like anybody will change their point of view easily. Everybody also has some logical way to explain why they're "right" and I'm sorry I posted a discussion type comment in this thread.

 Some of the collector's weapons here are really beautiful and some are just interesting, and Old Pa, I was talking about the Winchester you posted in Post 144.

 I really don't want to get this thread locked by going completely off-topic.


----------



## D1g1talV3n0m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_




 Does anyone here have any experience with the Walther P22? I've got a friend of mine who I let shoot my Ruger 22/45 and she did well with it. Also did well with my old Ruger Mark II. We went upstairs afterwards to look at a few in the case and she seemed to take a liking to it. It's a tad small in my hands but fit hers pretty good. They also had a Sig Mosquito, but I've read some so-so reports on the web about that one._

 

Don't buy a Sig Mosquito. Way too many issues. 

 I own a P22 and I love mine. You will find some "reliability" claims as each gun (Like any gun) does better with certain ammo then others. I ran 500 rounds through mine the other day within 2 hours and had no FTE's. It's a great gun and a fun gun to shoot. Nice thing also is that it shoots cheap .22 ammo.

 I tried a quite a few of the .22 caliber handguns but liked the price, ergonomics, and such of the P22 more then others. It's also a very fun gun to shoot suppressed and is good to introduce you into the world of Class 3 items.


----------



## Marximus

I have no pictures, but a Mosin-Nagant M44, 7.62mm X 54R, almost exactly like the OP's, and a 12-gauge shotgun I'm "borrowing" from my dad. I'd like to eventually get a scoped .22 and a 9mm (thinking about the Ruger P95).


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't buy a Sig Mosquito. Way too many issues. 

 I own a P22 and I love mine. You will find some "reliability" claims as each gun (Like any gun) does better with certain ammo then others. I ran 500 rounds through mine the other day within 2 hours and had no FTE's. It's a great gun and a fun gun to shoot. Nice thing also is that it shoots cheap .22 ammo.

 I tried a quite a few of the .22 caliber handguns but liked the price, ergonomics, and such of the P22 more then others. It's also a very fun gun to shoot suppressed and is good to introduce you into the world of Class 3 items._

 

I could swear that the gun shop here said it's great but just a bit finicky with ammo. Something like lead only is best? Can't remember. If they made a +2 cap for the end of the magazine I would probably have no problem. Hope she buys one. They have one for range rent there so next time I go I'll suggest that she rent it and see how it works for her.


----------



## D1g1talV3n0m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I could swear that the gun shop here said it's great but just a bit finicky with ammo. Something like lead only is best? Can't remember. If they made a +2 cap for the end of the magazine I would probably have no problem. Hope she buys one. They have one for range rent there so next time I go I'll suggest that she rent it and see how it works for her._

 

They are fickle about ammo but not as bad as people make it out to be. I just use CCI Mini Mag's or something with a bit higher velocity then standard. It's all about how the gun is taken care of and finding what ammo types it likes.

 I have large hands and have had no issue at all with the P22. I actually love it's ergonomics. I looked that the Buckmark and Ruger 22/45 but I hated the looks, ergonomics, and size.

 I am sure she will love the gun. Let her try it out like you said and maybe even you try it out. It's a good and fun gun for it's price.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are fickle about ammo but not as bad as people make it out to be. I just use CCI Mini Mag's or something with a bit higher velocity then standard. It's all about how the gun is taken care of and finding what ammo types it likes.

 I have large hands and have had no issue at all with the P22. I actually love it's ergonomics. I looked that the Buckmark and Ruger 22/45 but I hated the looks, ergonomics, and size.

 I am sure she will love the gun. Let her try it out like you said and maybe even you try it out. It's a good and fun gun for it's price._

 

I guarentee if she rents it I'll demand at least 2 magazines worth...


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only in my dreams. The guys with the real armories are too smart to post._

 

i tried to dig up a photo that occasionally finds its way to gunboards.. the guy who runs 7.62x54r.net snapped a photo of one of his gun rooms... and i would love to see a set of group photos of Karl-Heinz Wrobel's collection (the guy has some truly rare pieces stuff that on the rarity scale of 1-10 rates a 50 at least)


----------



## Old Pa

.22 LR Rimfire! The cartridge and the guns that shoot it may well establish the heart and soul of the tradition and practice of modern single projectile firearms and shooting. Ever since the first .22 lead ball was affixed to a percussion cap, creating the first low cost, low powered, low blast, low recoil single cartridged ammunition, the .22LR has been carving its place in shooters hearts. And what’s not to love? With bricks (500rds) of ammunition available in many different configurations costing from $25.00 to over $150.00, there is something for everyone. Capable is proper gun/ammunition combinations of extreme accuracy (or just something that goes “bang” a lot), these are cartridges and guns that have received much consideration. And when the brass falls on the ground, it’s ready to be recycled as scrap, not to begin another reloading cycle; a fact dear to the hearts of those of us who reload. Pure shooting fun! 

 NOTE: not ignored by Hollywood, the .22 pistol is their weapon of choice for the fictional master up close assassin. What they do ignore is the .22LR’s unsettling proclivity for the mis- and hangfire. Test your lot of .22LR well before you rely upon it!






 I have shown you three .22 rimfires already, 2 Ruger 10/22 variants and a Remington pump, and discussed their significant aspects. The top rifle here is a Kimber Model 82 .22LR left handed bolt wearing another Leupold 4.5-14x40 scope and a nylon shooting sling. This was the original Kimber of Oregon, not the present 1911A1-manufacturing one dominated by Brooklyn merchants who think they know more than John Moses Browning. It is very persnickety about its fodder, but with Federal Premium Ultra Match B or some Eley Tenex, it will shoot under a minute.

 The left hand pistol in the middle row is a High Standard Supermatic Trophy with military frame. It’s got a 7.5” fluted barrel, wears a 2X Leupold LER scope, and has some custom Herrett target grips carved thirty years ago to fit my left hand. It was my graduation present from my parents in 1974 when I received my B.A. (bad attitude 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Twenty years ago, when it wore an old Aimpoint, I shot it to my first Expert classification in NRA bullseye competition.

 The middle pistol in the middle row is a Daewoo Model DP52 .22LR wearing Pachmayr grip for a Walther PP. As you might imagine, it is a copy of the famous Walther PP and a good one at that. Accurate, ergometric, and reliable, this is the real deal and it warms my heart that the South Koreans in the later 80s found a need to make them. It beats the current crop of wannabee .22LR tactical pistols with a stick, as did its famous forebear. It cries out for a suppressor.

 The right side pistol in the middle row is a Browning Challenger .22LR with six inch barrel and adjustable sights. It is a Belgian Browning and is representative of the original .22LR pistols like the Colt Woodsman/Huntsman that dominated the sportsman/woodsman market from the 1910s through the 1960s (and largely are no more). It has an excellent adjustable trigger and is both reliable and accurate. We have logged many miles together.

 The bottom rifle is another Ruger 10/22 that started life as their high end sporting carbine when I bought it new for its MSRP of $79.95. It’s undergone some changes, now wearing a Butler Creek folding synthetic stock, a Clark fluted sixteen inch bull barrel, another Leupold 4.5-14x40 scope, and extended magazine release, and a Clark rigger kit and a nylon shooting sling. Proper use of an appropriate shooting sling can bring considerable steadiness to the field shooting positions. As with my other 10/22s, the receiver has been drilled to allow cleaning from the breach. Ruger 10/22s have a cult following with many accessories available; the ones I have installed are of the greatest practical use to me.


----------



## trains are bad

You pay 25 dollars for a brick of 22s? My official price limit is 12 dollars.


----------



## Born2bwire

I used to have a nice Walther KK Match .22. Lay down with a box or two of Lapua and you could shoot aspirin at 100 yards with it.

 I really like the Federal Gold match and the Lapua Midas stuff. It always worked better for me in the wind than the Eley Tenex.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You pay 25 dollars for a brick of 22s? My official price limit is 12 dollars._

 

$25.00 a brick is $2.50 per box of fifty and will get you stuff that always goes bang and without so much velocity variance. On sale or at a gun show, you might find good stuff for $20.00 per brick. I shoot mostly standard velocity .22LR because it is significantly more accurate than high or hyper velocity stuff with weird bullet weights and shapes. It doesn't really matter how fast the bullet is going if it misses the target. The only really interesting firarms are accurate ones. I've paid up to $125.00 per brick, but some good Russian match for under $50.00 represents a more realistic point of diminishing returns. My usual system is to buy lots of .22LR when I find good stuff on sale, then store is in a cool dry place until I've forgotten how much I paid and then go out and really let 'er rip!


----------



## trains are bad

Most of my 22 shooting is close range plinking where minute-of-beer can is good enough. If I want accuracy, I just go get a .223 or something. I have a pretty sweet 10/22 with laminated thumbhole stock, 16" fluted stainless barrel, red dot, and worked-over guts.


----------



## qwerty009

Wow, there are some nice collections. 
 Since there are many experts as i see then maybe someone can tell me the name of that gun: 


 Sorry, i dont have any other image. (Caliber is 7,92mm (8mm))

 Don't got any firearms myself, but i got semi-auto PCP FX Monsoon. Picture of gun, little video from target practice (coded with x264)(@40meters) and results shown in picture


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## necropimp

Yugoslavian M24 

 and not the insanely common postwar M24/47 either


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone here have any experience with the Walther P22?_

 

Haven't shot one personally but I've seen a lot of owners who loved their other Walthers complain about the reliability of the P22... You might want to check out the Walther Forum


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haven't shot one personally but I've seen a lot of owners who loved their other Walthers complain about the reliability of the P22... You might want to check out the Walther Forum_

 

Havent used it miselt either but i heard that it picky when it comes to ammo. Cheap rounds can often misfire. But in general i think its great for target practice since ammo is cheap.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Havent used it miselt either but i heard that it picky when it comes to ammo. Cheap rounds can often misfire. But in general i think its great for target practice since ammo is cheap._

 

I've been rather curious. Personally, I really like Walthers...


----------



## marvin

Henry H001 in .22 LR and 8.5" Pac-Lite on a MKIII 22/45 frame, also .22 LR... Oh yeah, and cats.

 Never really been a huge fan of .22s for some reason. But they have their uses, which is why I still have two of them.

 The Henry ain't a Marlin 39, but it's inexpensive, reasonably accurate, the action's slick as grease, and a hell of a lot of fun. Only thing I'd change is to swap out the sights to a ghost ring setup, but it's more likely that I'll drop on a cheap red dot. I originally purchased it to see if I liked the whole lever gun concept, before dropping real money on a Marlin in 45/70.

 The Pac-Lite/Ruger weighs next to nothing, is a lot more accurate than me, and a great plinker to boot. I really like it as it's light enough to have some recoil with HV rounds. It' s a great way for me to practice sight alignment for next to nothing. Ammo prices lately have been downright scary.


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## necropimp

snapped some bore pics out of [badpun]*bore*dom[/badpun]

1918 SSA SMLE No.1 MkIII*




1943 Izhevsk 91/30 PU




1941 VKT M91




 the SMLE may look like crap but it still shoots well enough

 the 2 mosin bores are some of my best... plenty of shine, strong lands, only a small spot of frost in the M91 (and i noticed i need to find my bore snake to clear the random bits of dust from the bore before taking any more bore pics)


----------



## KYTGuy

Went and cleaned and oiled a big part of the collection yesterday - I love the smell of Hoppe's #9, and gunoil!

 Played great music and had a grand time making sure all the stuff stays good to hand down.

 Now I gotta go and start reloading with a vengeance - have let stocks of .45 and .38/357 get entirely too low. I need to have a coupla thousand on hand of each.

 I have too much old .22 ammo - just gonna have to go to the range and blow off a few bricks, just for fun!!!

 Gonna get the shotshell loader in commission - a friend gave it to me for free, just like the Dillon that I use so much for Handgun cartridges. Gonna have to find another excuse to give the Wife instead of the "saving Money" one that she knows is BS that I gave for the Dillon.....Hmmm - How about "Honey, this will let me load light loads for you to shoot the Shotguns" - that should do it!

 Just placed a few orders with Sportsman's Guide folks, Midway, and Cheaper Than Dirt - This is gonna be a wonderful summer! 

 Wishin you all a great season Squintin', Squeezin',Shootin', and Breezin'!!!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I originally purchased it to see if I liked the whole lever gun concept, before dropping real money on a Marlin in 45/70._

 

Perhaps something like this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Marlin 1895G Guide Gun in .45-70 as originally catalogued. Eighteen inch ported barrel, Williams aperture receiver sight, buckhorn dovetail shoed with blank block. Surprisingly accurate and pleasant to shoot with 350 grain JHP at @ 2000fps.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps something like this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Marlin 1895G Guide Gun in .45-70 as originally catalogued. Eighteen inch ported barrel, Williams aperture receiver sight, buckhorn dovetail shoed with blank block. Surprisingly accurate and pleasant to shoot with 350 grain JHP at @ 2000fps._

 

That's purty! I've never been sold on the idea of lever guns but I'd buy that one!


----------



## necropimp

just arrived on the big brown truck

 1943 Izhevsk 91/59


----------



## rreynol

Just picked this up the other day.






 Here's some shots of other things I have around.









 There's also a Ruger 10/22, a Kahr K9 (My wife's CCW piece), and half of an AR-15 (with magpul stock, trigger guard, and grip) sitting around.


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## mrarroyo

I would like to get a lever action chambered in 44 magnum, any suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## KYTGuy

Henry Big Boy is pretty...But I don't have anything by them...

 I would get the Marlin - looks like the one a few up^, but in .44 Mag.


----------



## Samgotit

I was able to fondle a friends HK USP Compact .40. It fit my hand like a latex glove, something most guns just don't do, due to my small hands. 

 I have a Ruger P85. It's huge. After holding the HK, it's getting traded in. Any other options on a similarly sized .40 caliber. 

 I've been looking at CZ's .40 compacts, but I can't find them local.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was able to fondle a friends HK USP Compact .40. It fit my hand like a latex glove, something most guns just don't do, due to my small hands. 

 I have a Ruger P85. It's huge. After holding the HK, it's getting traded in. Any other options on a similarly sized .40 caliber. 

 I've been looking at CZ's .40 compacts, but I can't find them local._

 

HK P2000, S&W M&P, and the Browning Hi-Power come to mind.


----------



## D1g1talV3n0m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was able to fondle a friends HK USP Compact .40. It fit my hand like a latex glove, something most guns just don't do, due to my small hands. 

 I have a Ruger P85. It's huge. After holding the HK, it's getting traded in. Any other options on a similarly sized .40 caliber. 

 I've been looking at CZ's .40 compacts, but I can't find them local._

 

I wouldn't go with a HK. Are they good guns? Of course. Is the price warranted? Not if you ask me.

 Here are the choices I would suggest (If you have to buy the gun from somewhere like gunbroker or online gun sales and do a FFL transfer).

 CZ
 Tanfoglio (Sold under the name EAA Witness)
 Taurus 24/7 OSS (Coming out sometime in "fall" is what I was told.) 

 It all depends on what you want to pay and what you are looking for.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't go with a HK. Are they good guns? Of course. Is the price warranted? Not if you ask me._

 

True, the additional money for an HK doesn't get you much but the name. (Unless it's a P7 of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )

 But, as a member of the "small hands, fat fingers" club, if it fits, it fits. I've spent a lot of money cycling through wondernines to find one that fits right and shoots well, and I'd be kicking myself if I passed over the right one just to save a few hundred bucks.


----------



## D1g1talV3n0m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True, the additional money for an HK doesn't get you much but the name. (Unless it's a P7 of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 But, as a member of the "small hands, fat fingers" club, if it fits, it fits. I've spent a lot of money cycling through wondernines to find one that fits right and shoots well, and I'd be kicking myself if I passed over the right one just to save a few hundred bucks._

 

Another gun he could try is FN Herstal or Walther. Those MIGHT be a better choice for him and save him money also.

 To the OP...

 I am not a big fan of the 40. I stick with the 9mm and 10mm personally. One thing is go to a range and try out the guns you think you might like. Once you find the one you can shoot well, feels good, and is reliably buy that one.


----------



## trains are bad

Look long and hard at the M&Ps. I do consider them a gun that needs trigger work, but since I can do my own that's not a big deal. I love my 9mm compact to death.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would like to get a lever action chambered in 44 magnum, any suggestions? Thanks._

 

I showed you my Winchester Model 94 Trapper, and to my mind that's the pick of the litter. I've also owned the Rossi copy of the Winchester Model 92 in .44Rem Mag and a Marlin Guide Gun in the same caliber, but they were not as accurate as the Trapper for me and I needed room in the safe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For a Trapper in .44Rem Mag, you are going to have to hit gun shows (where I found mine), Shotgun News, or the guns classified in print or on line.


----------



## phergus_25

Im on the way to get my first rifle in my name,
 Im 18 and have grown up around guns my entire life,
 but dont have a rifle in my name yet.

 Im getting a Marlin 17 hmr


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I showed you my Winchester Model 94 Trapper, and to my mind that's the pick of the litter. I've also owned the Rossi copy of the Winchester Model 92 in .44Rem Mag and a Marlin Guide Gun in the same caliber, but they were not as accurate as the Trapper for me and I needed room in the safe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For a Trapper in .44Rem Mag, you are going to have to hit gun shows (where I found mine), Shotgun News, or the guns classified in print or on line._

 

Thanks, let the search start!


----------



## TwoFiveOne

At one point I had 21 Smith & Wesson revolvers but have sold off almost all of them since I don't really have anyone to leave them to and the prices they now fetch have just gone nuts.

 I have lots of photos of them all. Here is a Model 27-2 .357, from 1975, a real classic.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TwoFiveOne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have lots of photos of them all. Here is a Model 27-2 .357, from 1975, a real classic._

 

Those N frame S&Ws with pinned barrels, counterbored cylinders, old style hammers and good sights certainly are muy beautiful and desirable. One of the only guns that made full .357Rem Mag loads pleasant to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Back them I had a four inch Model 19, a 2 1/2 inch Model 66 and a six inch Model 66, but I always felt that K frames were too light for shooting a lot of .357Rem Mags.






 This is my current six inch .357 Smith; a Model 686 with Pachmayr Grippers. It doesn't have pinned barrel or counterbored cylinder, but it was one of the first production L frames and was set up at the factory as a PPC gun. It's had its timing cleaned up, a single action rebound spring fitted, and the main spring boned out to lighten it. An excellent field revolver.


----------



## ALBPM

Weekend outing at Whittington...





 Sighting in at the target range





 One of my recent FN FAL builds. This one is mostly from STG Austrian parts with a nice desert camo finish





 The Silhouette Range banging the 600 meter gongs










 The high power range





 Chasing the deer off one of the CQB ranges.


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## Old Pa

FN/FALs! Before there were ARs in .308, there were H&K 93s/G3s and M-14s. The FAL was not originally developed in 7.62x51/.308Win (a shortened .30-06 made possible by the development of ball powder), but was rapidly converted to that caliber after the U.S. Army force fed .308Win to NATO. The FAL was a better rifle than the M-14, especially in full auto, but it was Belgian made in the 1950s and politics are politics. Especially in the hands of the U.K. and the Commonwealth nations, it served throughout the Cold War. With the 7.62x51/.308Win you have actual antivehicle as well as antipersonnel capability; SAS bricks in Northern Ireland were having trouble stopping IRA vehicles with .223 rifles until they began to employ some Argentinian folding stock FALs seized in the Falklands. Problem solved.






 Mine is a D. S. Arms model of the 1990s made up on their receiver largely of Steyr parts. I chose it over the H&K as its adjustable gas system has significantly less perceived recoil. It carries another Leupold 4.5-14X40 scope in a light alloy see through ring mount arrangement which allows simultaneous use of the iron sights. It's mostly fed ChiCom 7.62x51 military ammunition which does little to develop the rifle's accuracy potential. Off of bags, however, it will keep 3 round "hammers" on a 12 inch by 8 inch log target at 100 yards.


----------



## trains are bad

How much do you all think .22-250 with 40 grain bullets drifts in the wind? We were trying to nail a groundhog at 410 yards today, but there was a stiff gusting crossbreeze. We shot at it 6 times, and never did get it. Quite embarassing.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much do you all think .22-250 with 40 grain bullets drifts in the wind? We were trying to nail a groundhog at 410 yards today, but there was a stiff gusting crossbreeze. We shot at it 6 times, and never did get it. Quite embarassing._

 

the .22-250 and the .220 swift are two rifles that I have always wanted to own but never set the money aside to do so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now with all my money going the music I do not see geting one in the near future. Furthermore living in Miami Beach there are not places to shoot beyond 25 meters.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TwoFiveOne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At one point I had 21 Smith & Wesson revolvers but have sold off almost all of them since I don't really have anyone to leave them to and the prices they now fetch have just gone nuts.

 I have lots of photos of them all. Here is a Model 27-2 .357, from 1975, a real classic.




_

 

Now this is a piece that I have shot (not same gun of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and it was such a pleasure. If you shoot 38 special loads is like shooting 22's (well almost)


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much do you all think .22-250 with 40 grain bullets drifts in the wind? We were trying to nail a groundhog at 410 yards today, but there was a stiff gusting crossbreeze. We shot at it 6 times, and never did get it. Quite embarassing._

 

Answer: a lot. Can't tell you how much not knowing your muzzle velocity or the wind speed and direction, but short .223 bullets like that sacrifice a lot of ballistic coefficient, which is also a measure of bucking wind drift, for velocity. It's all a compromise. I shoot no bullets lighter than 55 grains in the .22-250. If you had 20-30MPH of direct crosswind across the 410 yards, you could very well be talking 30 or 40 inches of drift. Did you even see any ground impact dust?


----------



## leftnose

Here's the inside of my safe:






 There are two .22 rifles in the back row on the left. The rest are shotguns.

 and I *think* there are about 10 more not inside the safe.


----------



## archosman

Well I rented the Walther P22 and shot a few rounds today. Worked pretty good... *as a single shot*! I kid you not... it would fire one round, kick it out, and not chamber another from the magazine. I ended up having to cycle the action for just about every shot.

 Now to be perfectly honest I was using some cheap Federal ammo. Usually I shoot CCI stingers but didn't want to pay the money. Should have... shot like crap most of the day with even both of my Rugers. It also hadn't been cleaned so that's another issue. 

 Also thought that the magazine spring was too weak. You know how your thumb hurts if you reload the Ruger magazines several times? I could reload the P22 all day and probably not have an issue. I may go back with my cleaning kit + Stingers and give it another try... but I wasn't very happy. In fact I should have asked for my money back. Good gun shop though...


----------



## trains are bad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Answer: a lot. Can't tell you how much not knowing your muzzle velocity or the wind speed and direction, but short .223 bullets like that sacrifice a lot of ballistic coefficient, which is also a measure of bucking wind drift, for velocity. It's all a compromise. I shoot no bullets lighter than 55 grains in the .22-250. If you had 20-30MPH of direct crosswind across the 410 yards, you could very well be talking 30 or 40 inches of drift. Did you even see any ground impact dust?_

 


 That's good; I was beginning to think my dad couldn't shoot. We don't handload yet and cabelas only had 40 grainers in stock, which did seem awful lite to me...that's what we usually shoot out of our .223s.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's good; I was beginning to think my dad couldn't shoot. We don't handload yet and cabelas only had 40 grainers in stock, which did seem awful lite to me...that's what we usually shoot out of our .223s._

 

Velocity and ballistic coefficient are always compromises with each other. BC not only means resistance to winds, but also retention of velocity over longer range and higher sectional density. Velocity means flatter trajectory and greater tolerance of error in range estimation. 52 grains is sort of an all time sweet spot for .223 bullet accuracy. I shoot 50 grain polymer tipped boattails these days in my .223. Just got confirmation on our June Prairie Poodle Safari from my partner in Illinois.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TwoFiveOne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At one point I had 21 Smith & Wesson revolvers but have sold off almost all of them since I don't really have anyone to leave them to and the prices they now fetch have just gone nuts.

 I have lots of photos of them all. Here is a Model 27-2 .357, from 1975, a real classic.





_

 

Seriously, PM me if you ever decide it's time for that beauty to leave your safe. It's gorgeous!


----------



## ALBPM

Here are some more of my FALs...





 Springfield SAR4800 in .223










 One of my first builds with a DS Arms receiver, South African barrel,
 FNC hand guard.










 The latest build with a DS Arms receiver and US made Barrel.
 Nice Quilted maple handguards.


----------



## Old Pa

Very nice, ALPBM. How do those .308 folding stocks shoot compared to a fixed stock?

 Precision long range shooting requires great optics. Not just telescopic sights on rifles and pistols, but also binoculars for long periods of scanning and powerful spotting scopes for positive target identification, spotting shot placement, and wind from mirage. Even with good vision, identifying faces at 200 yards is not reliable and downright problematic before 300 yards. And aneometers and various passive and active rangefinders are necessary where even a five per cent error in range or wind estimation can mean a miss or a maiming.






 My main shooting optics sit here on the London Bridge Trading Company’s excellent spotting scope and tripod field case. At top left is my Leica Geovid 8x42 binocular laser rangefinder. Good binoculars have excellent clear optics in tubes that are properly aligned to each other for hours of comfortable fatigue free scanning. Eight power is the highest I can hand hold for long periods of time. The laser reads out to 1300 yards +/-10yds. As an active system, it is subject to detection and must be employed accordingly. All of my precision rifle scopes have mil-dot reticles which allow for accurate range finding at the scopes highest magnification. The Leupold 12-40X60mm armored spotting scope in its London Bridge Trading Company cordura cover at top right goes them one better. Its mil-dot reticle is mounted in the first optical plane and can therefore be utilized at all eyepiece magnifications. The leupold is wearing a honeycomb anti-reflection filter. Below these two optics in the case are the green Manfroto speed ball head and wilderness tripod for rock solid mounting of the Leupold.

 At bottom left is my Meteos Skywatch Anemometer/Thermometer and clamp. It provides accurate omnidirectional indication of wind and ambiant temperature, both of which can effect ammunition performance and bullet flight. Ball powders seem to be especially sensitive to varying temperatures; ammunition tested at 50F may have too high pressure after being warmed by direct sunlight beyond 10F. It has a floating compass in its lid for convenient determination of wind direction. BTW, I have found that a small cooler with a white lid is a handy ammunition box when shooting out under the summer sun; keeps everything together and relatively cool. At bottom right is my Kowa TSN-823 20-60x82mm (Prominar flourite coated objective) spotting scope in its Creedmore sports cordura case. It’s my spotting scope for high power service rifle competition with a different 25 power long eye relief eyepiece. With the 20-60 eyepiece, the resolving power of this scope is amazing. Its angled eyepiece allows it to be set up alongside a shooting position and utilized without leaving the shooting position. I have my Varmint Master portable shooting bench rigged so that the Kowa is co-axial with the rifle rest and, within field of view limitations, what shows up in the Kowa is the same as what shows up in the rifle scope.

 Proper employment of quality optical equipment greatly enhances the efficiency of the long range shooter. Besides, this stuff is so neat!


----------



## trains are bad

Can anyone recommend cheap (1-200 dollars) binoculars? I'm going to buy my dad one for father's day; he uses them for groundhogs. Or rather, he doesn't, because he lost his.


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## Old Pa

Your father might well be better served with one of the lower end Leupold or Nikon fixed power spotting scopes for groundhog shooting. Good binoculars are expensive because you essentially have two scopes which must be synchronized and aligned with one another to provide an instrument which does new fatigue the user. That's quite a bit more expensive than just making two scopes.


----------



## geardoc

Two questions.. being a headfi'er:

 Do you do something special to protect your ears? I've been double plugging - earplugs + muffs to reduce the chance of any more high frequency loss.

 Do you wear IEM's to the range?


----------



## vpivinylspinner

I got a set of Westone custom ear plugs made when I had my custom IEMs made. They fit great and cut sound way down. If I am going to need to hear conversations, competitions/classes I use a set of electronic ear muffs that actually work really well.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geardoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Two questions.. being a headfi'er:

 Do you do something special to protect your ears? I've been double plugging - earplugs + muffs to reduce the chance of any more high frequency loss.

 Do you wear IEM's to the range?_

 

I don't know what other people do, but I generally wear foam plugs when I shoot subsonic pistols (under 1200fps) and plugs and muffs for everything else. Keep the plugs in all the time in case some _buffo_ decided to crank one off on a cold range. I've also got some Peltor electronic muffs that I use sometimes at matches, but not as much as I thought I would. I've been doing this for more than forty-five years and my ears still test out good (if I keep the wax out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).

 I don't use headphones/IEMs in any situation where there might be any other audio signal that I would have to act on. Blocking off your ears and/or distracting yourself has never struck me as very tactical behavior.


----------



## braillediver

I just committed to buy this. My second in a month.






 I shot my P7 M8 yesterday and it was really nice. The gun is much more accurate than I can shoot. I would prefer to get one with the warning under the trigger gaurd but the price was right.


 Mitch


----------



## TwoFiveOne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously, PM me if you ever decide it's time for that beauty to leave your safe. It's gorgeous!_

 

Nice compliment, thanks.

 Here is the same gun only in nickel. This one has the '30s-blonde-Hollywood-moviestar good looks. When I sold it I was deep in "head-fi trading beads," if you know what I mean. I don't miss it at all - the photo is pr*n-ish enough, 'twas never a shooter, only a looker.


----------



## marvin

Most recent pickup. Shrouded hammer Colt Agent (snubnosed, chopped grip D-frame) made in 1962.

 6 shots of .38 special in a J-magnum size frame. Not bad at all for 1962. Even better now with Buffalo Bore's new standard pressure .38 Special loads.


----------



## ALBPM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice, ALPBM. How do those .308 folding stocks shoot compared to a fixed stock?_

 

 They shoot very well with the ACE folding stocks. I've tried both South African and Imbel folding stocks and both tend to play havoc with front and rear sights. With the ACE stocks you don't need to get a Para Lower. They bolt right on the standard lower. The ACE stocks work great for my needs and they add to the US made parts count. You just need the Para bolt carrier with the captured recoil springs.

http://riflestocks.com/FAL.htm


----------



## Jam_Master_J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 Medium, light, and heavy tactical precision rifles. Top is the medium; a Remington 700 Tactical (left-hand) with 26 inch tube. Its internal box magazine has been custom lengthened to hold its preferred fodder of 175gr Sierra Match Kings seated to be 0.010” off the lands when chambered. It’s scoped with a Leupold Long Range Tactical 4.5-14x50mm (30mm tube) and mil-dot reticle; note the extended scope leveler. Trigger has been replaced with a Timney that breaks like a glass rod at 2.5#. Shooting sling is pretty standard but of a synthetic material that is much more stable than leather; no rattle swivels. It wears a VAIS comp. I can shoot this gun into 0.375” at 100 yds.

 Middle is the light; a AR-15 HBAR (stainless) in .223Rem, free-floating 24” tube with another VAIS. It’s wearing a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm that’s built on a 1 inch tube with standard turrets. It has a lighted mil-dot reticle for low light use and is fitted with a crisp JP Performance trigger. Standard load here is a Hornady 60grain VMax. This is a 0.50” gun for me.

 Bottom is the heavy; a completely custom H. S. Precision left hand short action in .300WSM with 26” barrel and another VAIS. It’s wearing a Leupold LRT 6.5-20x50mm (30mm tube) with mil-dot reticle and scope leveler. The trigger is a thing of beauty and art, breaking cleanly at 2.5#. With loads as first worked up, and the bullets must be seated well back from the lands to fit in the detachable magazines, this rifle shoots under 0.50” for me at 100 yards with 175gr Match Kings._

 

Awesome stuff. I really want to get a Remington LTR (just a 700P with a short barrel). I was originally going to get left-handed but can't get the LTR in LH, do you find having a left-handed rifle to be worth the extra hassle in terms of finding it and picking it over the easier to find (especcially used) right handed rifle?


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TwoFiveOne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At one point I had 21 Smith & Wesson revolvers but have sold off almost all of them since I don't really have anyone to leave them to and the prices they now fetch have just gone nuts.

 I have lots of photos of them all. Here is a Model 27-2 .357, from 1975, a real classic.




_

 

I love the revolvers from that time. I have a Smith & Wesson 44mag 29-2 and a K-22 Masterpiece. Pa described them very well. IMO, those weapons were truly works of art and far superior in fit/finish to their current counterparts. Wouldn't part with them for the world. Well, maybe that's an overstatement, but it would take a handsome sum of money to pry them away from me. I've got to get some decent shots of my collection when I find some spare time. Again, beautiful piece.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was originally going to get left-handed but can't get the LTR in LH, do you find having a left-handed rifle to be worth the extra hassle in terms of finding it and picking it over the easier to find (especcially used) right handed rifle?_

 

It's very important for left handed shooters to become practically familiar with shooting and operating right hand bolt guns. They are by far the most widely distributed and the most likely to "fall to hand" in a moment of need. That said, other than bolt rifles, all my other firearms are of the common right hand formats. And left handed Model 1911s, ARs, pump and auto shotguns have been and are made. Good firearms design is either ambidextrous for the controls or at least operable by a left handed shooter. Bolt rifles, however, are the one place where I really appreciate left handed design. You don't have a bolt handle right off your nose. You don't have to reach over the rifle to operate the bolt. You don't have to break shooting position each time you operate the bolt (and the #1 target identifier is motion). The safety and other controls on a left handed rifle is located in ergometric and intuitive positions. And you have the rare and not so subtle pleasure of occasionally handing you left handed bolt to a right handed person and seeing them suddenly realize what living left handed in a right handed world is all about.

 I've shown you some left handed bolts firearms, some Remington 700s, an H. S. Precision, an old Kimber Model 82, and some Savage Striker (which are left hand bolt right side eject pistols for right handed shooters). Here are a few more:






 The top two left hand bolt rifles are Browning A-Bolt Stalkers with BOSS factory tuning compensators on the muzzles, synthetic stocks, and 20 inch barrels. The top one is in .308Win with a Leupold 2.5-8x40 scope. It shoots at about one inch with most loads and is a fine and handy deer rifle for the woods. The other A-Bolt is in .243Win with a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm LRT. It is extremely accurate for its design and shoots under 0.5 inch. The design of the A-Bolt is with three front locking lugs on the bolt set out as an isosceles triangle (or a wide spread "A"). It's harder to get three lugs to mesh perfectly square than the usual 2 lugs of a Mauser design, and perfectly square meshing is one secret of consistent chambering and ignition for improved accuracy. These are my woods and walking around rifles.

 The next two rifles are Sako long actions and wear Bell & Carlson's excellent composite stock in a camouflage pattern. Their factory triggers are lovely once you learn how to adjust them. The top Sako is a custom with 24" heavy fluted stainless barrel and VAIS comp in 7mm Rem Mag, all in hard black teflon powdercoat. It usually wears a Leupold LPS 3.5-15x50, but I removed that when the VAIS was fitted and still have some bedding work to do. The white on its stock is a drop table for its usual loads over range. The lower Sako is a .338Win Mag with 24 inch barrel and wears another 2.5-8x40 Leupold. These are my heavy hunting rifles.

 The bottom rifle was my first left hand bolt over twenty years ago. I had wanted one for fifteen years previous to that after seeing a Mannlicher full stock carbine in a glass case at a Vienna hotel lobby. It is an Austrian Steyr Mannlicher Model M with 24 inch barrel in .30-06. It wears a Leupold 4.5-14x40 scope and has a nice piece of walnut in a faintly "european" profile for a stock. The Model M shoots well under an inch with factory ammunition. Many of these left hand bolt rifles were only made for a short time and are now made of "unobtainium". Getting them while they were availble was another application of the "strike while the iron is hot" rule.

 As a last suggestion, don't get too short a barrel on your .308Win class rifles. The increased muzzle blast and recoil is fatiguing and the .308Win keeps developing velocity well beyond the usual 26 inch length of my barrels.


----------



## FallenAngel

I'm so upset today, I just received a voicemail from the gun club saying that they're booked for the intro trials for the rest of the year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By any slim chance is there anybody in the Toronto area that knows of another gun club offering this type of package?


----------



## Hermitt

Not one of my personal bests, but it is rather cool to be able to pick up my 'baby' .177cal and shoot 10 yards across the room from my chair anytime the fancy strikes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Steyer LP2 .177cal, 10 shots @ 10 yards (30feet), single hand, iron (open) sights.


----------



## Gautama

What do you use to stop the pellets from penetrating into the wall/furniture?


----------



## Hermitt

i use this pellett trap. works great.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not one of my personal bests, but it is rather cool to be able to pick up my 'baby' .177cal and shoot 10 yards across the room from my chair anytime the fancy strikes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nice shootin'!


----------



## Hermitt

I get too many like this tho with the occasional 'fliers' to mess up the good groups 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Steyr LP2 .177cal, 10 shots @ 10 yards (30 feet), single hand, iron (open) sights


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I get too many like this tho with the occasional 'fliers' to mess up the good groups 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You remember how your definition of "flyer" has changed? Started out being off of the paper. Then it was outside the scoring rings. Pretty soon it was anything out of the black. Then out of the "X". Finally, it's anything not "touching". Your standards change as your skills improve. You wind up only competing with yourself.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You remember how your definition of "flyer" has changed? Started out being off of the paper. Then it was outside the scoring rings. Pretty soon it was anything out of the black. Then out of the "X". Finally, it's anything not "touching". Your standards change as your skills improve. You wind up only competing with yourself._

 

Good point, I suck so I am still on the firs iteration.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Henry H001 in .22 LR and 8.5" Pac-Lite on a MKIII 22/45 frame, also .22 LR... Oh yeah, and cats.

 Never really been a huge fan of .22s for some reason. But they have their uses, which is why I still have two of them.

 The Henry ain't a Marlin 39, but it's inexpensive, reasonably accurate, the action's slick as grease, and a hell of a lot of fun. Only thing I'd change is to swap out the sights to a ghost ring setup, but it's more likely that I'll drop on a cheap red dot. I originally purchased it to see if I liked the whole lever gun concept, before dropping real money on a Marlin in 45/70.

 The Pac-Lite/Ruger weighs next to nothing, is a lot more accurate than me, and a great plinker to boot. I really like it as it's light enough to have some recoil with HV rounds. It' s a great way for me to practice sight alignment for next to nothing. Ammo prices lately have been downright scary._

 

So what caliber are the cats?


----------



## Old Pa

9mm Parabellum (9x19) pistols share a common problem with all pistols below .40; they are not effective “stoppers” for self defense without good expanding bullets. Particular demands are placed upon self defense handguns. They are depended upon in moments or virtual panic to with one or two well placed “center of mass” shots to completely stop an armed and determined attacker. Any caliber from .22LR on up can kill with effectively placed multiple rounds. .35 caliber handguns make effective military sidearms; they are used by trained warriors and usually supported with rifles and heavier arms. But .35 caliber self defense handguns clearly occupy the lowest rung on the self defense pistol ladder.

 The 9mm Parabellum was largely developed for the Luger P08, a beautiful, intuitively pointable, and very sexy semi-automatic that has been arming the spies of novels and movies ever since. Never mind its weak toggle action and relative fragility. In the late ‘70s through the mid ‘90s, double stack, double action 9mms were being introduced on a monthly basis. Most of these “Super 9s” have come and gone. The ones that have survived are the ones who found patrons among the militaries and police forces of the world. Face it. Guys, when it comes to the firearms makers, we are the “small potatoes”. It’s the bean counters in local, state and federal purchasing units who decide which firearm designs are going to succeed and which are going to fail.






 After having owned about a dozen 9x19 pistols, I am currently down to the four above. The top two are different sides of the same model, a Crvena Zastava 99. The CZ99 is a Yugoslavian cross between a Sig 226 and a Walther P99. It was imported for a few years during the mid 90s in both 9mm and .40 S(hort)&W(eak). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It combined, for me, the best qualities of the Super 9s; good single action trigger and smooth (i.e. “nonstacking”) double action trigger, ambidextrous de-c**cking and magazine release, forged aluminum frame with steel CAD/CAM slide, night sights, loaded chamber indicator, exposed hammer, and full size frame. With its heavy slide, it can shoot hot SMG ammunition and has the softer recoil of a .45ACP rather than the hot barking twist of many +P .35 pistols. It is excellent fit and finish and is covered with a very durable baked powdercoat. At one time I owned five of these and campaigned them in IPSC.

 The bottom left pistol is a Belgian Browning P35 made with a long barrel and clamp-on weight with adjustable sights. It was made on a limited production run for a West Coast USPSA organization. Mine has a Browning ambidextrous safety and Pachmayr rubber grips. With light loads it is my pistol for Steel Challenge competitions. P35s are marvelously ergometric pistols, the last masterpiece of John Moses Browning. The fact that the design followed Browning’s Model 1911 and incorporates design changes in virtually every aspect has fueled pistol arguments to this day. The P-35 does not like hot +P and ++P loads; they seem to just batter the pistols.

 The bottom right gun is one of my two CCW “mouse guns” (the other being an S&W Model 38 Undercover). The pistol shown is a Kahr PM9 with silver stainless slide and night sights. The Kahr design is one of the most innovative recent pistol designs and the single operating control is the pistol’s trigger. I don’t normally like hammerless “striker” designs, but I like this one just fine. It shoots very well and handles hot loads with aplomb. My “mouse guns” are under 20 ounces loaded and fit inconspicuously in pocket or belt. They are what I carry when their employment is unlikely but it would still be foolish to be unarmed.


----------



## Old Pa

A typical 200 yard 5 shot group. Rifle: Remington 700 VS .22-250. Bullet: Sierra 55 gr Blitz SBT.


----------



## Hermitt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 A typical 200 yard 5 shot group. Rifle: Remington 700 VS .22-250. Bullet: Sierra 55 gr Blitz SBT._

 

Very Nice!


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 A typical 200 yard 5 shot group. Rifle: Remington 700 VS .22-250. Bullet: Sierra 55 gr Blitz SBT._

 

Man, that is great. I couldn't do the same at 25 yards.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 A typical 200 yard 5 shot group. Rifle: Remington 700 VS .22-250. Bullet: Sierra 55 gr Blitz SBT._

 

Note to self: Do not piss of Old Pa.

 Do you have a pic of the .22-250 cartridge? I'd like to get an idea how much powder you're putting behind it and I can't seem to find one via google.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have a pic of the .22-250 cartridge? I'd like to get an idea how much powder you're putting behind it_

 

Here's one of my .22-250Rem/55Blitz loads as done up for my Striker. On the left is a .223Rem/50Blitz, then the .22-250, the a ruler, and finally a .243Win 87gr factory.






 I consider the .22-250 and the .243 to be in the same rifle case class although the .243 is definitely larger. I find with medium and heavier bullets in this case size class Varget works very well. For an extruded powder, it meters like water and its temperature stability affords great consistency. I'm not going to give you charge weights, because those should be worked up by yourself for each particular rifle and bullet seating depth. You will note I use moly coated bullets exclusively in high velocity rifles. Moly coating allows 1 to 2 grain heavier charges and minutely higher velocities.






 This is a group I shot with my .22-250Rem Striker 14" pistol at 100 yards during barrel break in. It's actually two groups of five with a cleaning in between. .22-250 has been very, very good to me.


----------



## braillediver

What are those groups in MOA- if it works that way?

 Congratulations that's some Fantastic Marksmenship!


 Mitch


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are those groups in MOA- if it works that way?

 Congratulations that's some Fantastic Marksmenship!_

 

Thanks for your kind words, but I know a lot of people who can shoot much better than I can. Minute of Angle (or MOA) works out to be a little bit less than an inch at 100 yards, but by convention it's considered to be one inch at 100 yards, two inches at 200 yards, three inches at 300 yards and so on. You also have to figure out a way to measure your groups so as to get consistent results. Groups are, by convention, measured center-to-center. To get a group size, I use a digital vernier caliper to measure the distance between the furthest apart edges of the most widely spread two shots and then subtract from that measurement the diameter of the bullet being fired. It's also convention that if the shooter sees the reticle moving off the aiming point at the instant the shot breaks, he or she may call a flyer to the clock position they saw the motion. If the hit was out where indicated, it can be treated as a called flyer and discarded (but not in competition). The groups I have posted have all been sub-minute, some have been sub-half-minute. 

 I shoot precision rifles generally off the bench at 3/4" black stick-on dots on heavy white paper to get a fine aiming point sharply in contrast to the background (Aim small; miss small 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) The dots are, as you can see slightly smaller than dimes. Benchrest testing of firearm/ammunition combinations just shows you how well they work under relatively stable circumstances. Shooting under actual field conditions is way different!


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's one of my .22-250Rem/55Blitz loads as done up for my Striker. On the left is a .223Rem/50Blitz, then the .22-250, the a ruler, and finally a .243Win 87gr factory.






 I consider the .22-250 and the .243 to be in the same rifle case class although the .243 is definitely larger. I find with medium and heavier bullets in this case size class Varget works very well. For an extruded powder, it meters like water and its temperature stability affords great consistency. I'm not going to give you charge weights, because those should be worked up by yourself for each particular rifle and bullet seating depth. You will note I use moly coated bullets exclusively in high velocity rifles. Moly coating allows 1 to 2 grain heavier charges and minutely higher velocities.






 This is a group I shot with my .22-250Rem Striker 14" pistol at 100 yards during barrel break in. It's actually two groups of five with a cleaning in between. .22-250 has been very, very good to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That certainly looks like a good cartridge to use when you want to reach out and touch something.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That certainly looks like a good cartridge to use when you want to reach out and touch something._

 

With a bullet like a molyed 60 grain V-Max, it is considered by some knowledgeable folks to be the ultimate practical whack cartridge.


----------



## Born2bwire

Dangit, now you've really piqued my interest into a Remington 700. Wish I could get back into shooting, but I do not have the money to replace my target .22 rifle or to keep up with high power ammunition costs. I should have grabbed a Winchester 52 from my dad when I was visiting him last year.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dangit, now you've really piqued my interest into a Remington 700. Wish I could get back into shooting, but I do not have the money to replace my target .22 rifle or to keep up with high power ammunition costs. I should have grabbed a Winchester 52 from my dad when I was visiting him last year._


----------



## phergus_25

Well I went into the store with a Marlin .17 in mind
 however, when I saw this savage I couldent resist
 My dad gave me a Bushnell Sport View scope
 I sighted it in at 50 yards and was getting .5" groups

 I plan to take it to the range tommorow and get it out to 100


----------



## Gautama

Never really was a fan of the odd colored wood rifles aesthetically. Dry-firing my my Gamo p23 around the house atm, and its hard to hold it unwavering


----------



## phergus_25

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Never really was a fan of the odd colored wood rifles aesthetically. Dry-firing my my Gamo p23 around the house atm, and its hard to hold it unwavering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I was slightly thrown off by it, but I think I like it. 
 I really like the feel of the rifle tho.
 My next gun will be a single shot Ruger in 204


----------



## Hermitt

Old-Pa, is that 14" pistol also scoped? 

 I purchased a custom made 'barrel clamping' type mount to mount a scope on my Steyr, but I found that it is much more enjoyable to get the tight groups with open sights and no rest support. I haven't tried any of the 'shooting' glasses yet with an adjustable iris, but I see they are real popular in the match competitions.

 I originally bought the mount and scope to try out metal sillohette since the distance they set the targets out, you can barely even see them with your naked eye


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old-Pa, is that 14" pistol also scoped?_

 

Picture and description at post #56 of this thread.


----------



## Hermitt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Picture and description at post #56 of this thread._

 

ah yes, very nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Somewhere along the line and through a series of events, I had aquired a broken snake charmer 410 like the one you also posted a few pages back. This one is completely missing all the grip and stock. I always thought it would be a cool project to make it into a 'long barrel' 410 pistol


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Somewhere along the line and through a series of events, I had aquired a broken snake charmer 410 like the one you also posted a few pages back. This one is completely missing all the grip and stock. I always thought it would be a cool project to make it into a 'long barrel' 410 pistol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

They work well within the limitations of the gauge/bore. Even a Federal Premium 3" .410 carries only 11/16ths of an ounce of 7 1/2 shot. Makes it only a twenty yard proposition on grouse. You know that the stock has a sliding trap for four shells?


----------



## Gautama

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phergus_25* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I went into the store with a Marlin .17 in mind
 however, when I saw this savage I couldent resist
 My dad gave me a Bushnell Sport View scope
 I sighted it in at 50 yards and was getting .5" groups

 I plan to take it to the range tommorow and get it out to 100




_

 


 Perhaps you should take it back and buy some sheets and a comforter


----------



## phergus_25

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you should take it back and buy some sheets and a comforter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hey gatta cut back somewhere... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but naw I just got back from a lake trip, and I was changing bedding

 I took it down to the range today for the first time.
 Got it in close, I had a decent wind which i think accounts for the right lean of everything. I didnt want to adjust till i had a calm day.

 100 yards
 Savage 17 HMR


----------



## wafflesomd

My brother has an M1 Garand and an Enfeild Mark 4.

 I don't have any pics of them, but they are a blast to shoot. Man, that Garand has some serious kick.


----------



## brotherlen

I have a .40 cal USP, I like it, but looking to trade it for something I can carry. (I'm not a big dude by any means) I'm also looking at building an AR, any suggestions? Any first hand experience with the new piston uppers?


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wafflesomd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My brother has an M1 Garand and an Enfeild Mark 4.

 I don't have any pics of them, but they are a blast to shoot. Man, that Garand has some serious kick._

 

I had a CMP Garand and it was a real blast to shoot. That and my K98k's made for a fun afternoon. My dad won a M1 National Match as a trophy rifle at Perry way back when. Absolutely a beautiful rifle.


----------



## MorpheusZero

BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 BLAM
 TINK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 <3 M1 Garands...

 Anyway, here are a few pictures of a recent shooting session I had with a few friends.





 Friend's GF shooting my G22. She was actually giving my friends pointers, I was quite impressed.





 How cute, a couple shooting some .22s. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Only took me 15 shots to get the slide in action...





 S&W .357 hamerless combat revolver... 





 $%&^ extraction jam...





 Finally, one of me shooting the G22.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brotherlen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm also looking at building an AR, any suggestions? Any first hand experience with the new piston uppers?_

 

www.brownells.com I've had thirty good years of dealing with these folks.

 If you go to a piston upper, you basically change the gun and trade a Stoner design for a person Kalashnikov. This is fine, if you know more about firearms design than Eugene Stoner did. My $.02.


----------



## necropimp

hit the rummage sales came home with this






 just fired 2 pellets and put 4 holes in a 8oz soda can... i'll see how it groups when i have the time but it's all i wanted for a backyard rifle... the weight and size of a real firearm (both my daisy 880 and my romanian cheapo have that "toy gun" weight and it feels weird) and a spring piston action


----------



## Gautama

Sweet how much?


----------



## necropimp

not much less than what a new one costs sadly... i originally thought it was a more expensive model


----------



## braillediver

Speaking of AR’s. I just ordered this lower:






 and will build a pistol like this:







 Mitch


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Speaking of AR’s. I just ordered this lower:






 and will build a pistol like this:







 Mitch_

 


 can you put a 30 rounder in that or are you limited to 5-10 round magazines?


----------



## braillediver

You can put a 100 round drum in it if you want. We don’t have magazine restrictions here in Washington State. Aesthetically a 20 round magazine would be about right.


 Mitch


----------



## trains are bad

When you get it finished, concealed carry that thing under a trenchcoat. Bwahahaha.

 BTW, isn't the transfer fee for a Short Barreled Shotgun only 5 bucks?


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can put a 100 round drum in it if you want. We don’t have magazine restrictions here in Washington State. Aesthetically a 20 round magazine would be about right.


 Mitch_

 









 Are Beta Mags still considered a destructive device? You know the two 50 rounders that feed into a single stack magazine?


----------



## WhatMACHI

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MorpheusZero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_B





 Friend's GF shooting my G22. She was actually giving my friends pointers, I was quite impressed._

 

Im in love. My girlfriend would probably not even know where the trigger is on a gun


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WhatMACHI* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im in love. My girlfriend would probably not even know where the trigger is on a gun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You know I am a potato head, having said that there are so many ways I can respond to your comment. However, I would get in trouble with any of them so I will shut up!!!


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can put a 100 round drum in it if you want. We don’t have magazine restrictions here in Washington State. Aesthetically a 20 round magazine would be about right._

 

How long is the barrel going to be? That looks like an NFA weapon to me. Personally this is the next toy I'm going to get... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Saiga 12 with sound suppressor. Perfect for home defense! He's not going to be taking new orders until September though...


----------



## braillediver

It's all in the technicalities. The lower is going to be registered as a pistol and will be built up as a pistol first. You can't put a shoulder stock on it since you can't put a shoulder stock on a pistol. Here’s what the dealer told me:


 “Yes, I can log in a lower as a pistol from the factory as long as they were never made into rifles. (these lowers are stripped and I can request that they be registered as pistols when leaving the factory.)

 You CAN turn a pistol into a rifle, but NEVER turn a rifle into a pistol.

 Once a rifle, always a rifle.


 Here's where it gets interesting.

 You must build the lower into a pistol first. And have documentation that it was made into a pistol first.

 Then you can remove the buffertube, remove the upper and make it into a
 legal rifle if you'd like.

 BUT when going back to a pistol configuration, you MUST remove the stock first before putting on the pistol upper. You do not want to create a short barreled rifle, (the stock and short upper will create an SBR)

 Anyway, as long as you stay methodical and don't forget any steps, you
 should be perfectly fine.

 I can include a letter stating the lower was registered as a pistol and sent to your dealer as a stripped lower.”


 I already have a Colt Sporter so this seemed different enough to be interesting. The lowers are only $125 + $35 FFL Transfer. It’s cheap enough to get and figure out later what to do with it.

 It’s a limited run of 75 pieces from a Dealer on the SigForum- note the serial number SFXXXXX. 


 Mitch


----------



## trains are bad

Isn't that great? The difference between being a legal gun owner and a felon is the difference in what order you put your gun together? It really reaffirms my respect and confidence in our legal system.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't that great? The difference between being a legal gun owner and a felon is the difference in what order you put your gun together? It really reaffirms my respect and confidence in our legal system._

 

it's just as great as an M1 carbine that has the 1 in M1 stamped over a 2... as some M2s were converted to M1 configuration (also could go the other way since recievers for both were identical) since in the infinite stupidity of the ATF's thinking "once a machine gun always a machine gun" such a rifle is illegal and must be destroyed in accordance with ATF regulations (reciever torch cut in a manner that makes reassembly impossible)

 the thing is using standard logic once put into a semi-auto only M1 configuration the carbine is no longer a machinegun... yes it could be converted back to full-auto but so could any M1 carbine with the correct M2 parts (including M2 stock which is already commonly found on M1s)

 some of the gun law specifics can be a little bit "special" but not much can be done about laws already in place...


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's all in the technicalities. The lower is going to be registered as a pistol and will be built up as a pistol first. You can't put a shoulder stock on it since you can't put a shoulder stock on a pistol. Here’s what the dealer told me:_

 

Heh, that's fascinating to say the least! I night want to jump on that to fill in the slow period until September rolls around...


----------



## braillediver

Poverty loves company so I'll send you a link.

 Starting as a pistol seems obvious due to the options available.


 Mitch


----------



## MorpheusZero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WhatMACHI* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im in love. My girlfriend would probably not even know where the trigger is on a gun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha, she was no expert but IIRC her dad was a gun nut or something, she knew her general way around a gun and even cleared a few jams and duds with no instruction. She's quite a cutie, too, he's a lucky dude.


----------



## necropimp

went to a reenactment and got to pose for a crappy phone cam photo with one of those guns i'll always want but will have to win the lottery to own... yes that fatass with the funny beard is me






 i also got to get a good close look at a BAR... i knew they were heavy but never realized how heavy


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When you get it finished, concealed carry that thing under a trenchcoat. Bwahahaha.

 BTW, isn't the transfer fee for a Short Barreled Shotgun only 5 bucks?_

 

A PGO only short barreled shotgun is a AOW (Any Other Weapon) with a $5 stamp.

 A stocked short barreled shotgun is a SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun) with a $200 stamp.

 Yep. Weird.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* 
_Are Beta Mags still considered a destructive device? You know the two 50 rounders that feed into a single stack magazine?_

 

Nope, Beta mags were never considered destructive devices, just high capacity feeding devices. DDs only cover "non-sporting" shotguns (ex. USAS-12, Streetsweeper), explosives (ex. grenades, bombs), and stuff that shoots explosives ex. (M-79, M-203).


----------



## MorpheusZero

Here's a gun for ya:






http://www.tk560.com/m41a.html


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_went to a reenactment and got to pose for a crappy phone cam photo with one of those guns i'll always want but will have to win the lottery to own... yes that fatass with the funny beard is me




_

 

Sweet, Sturmgewehr.


----------



## skudmunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sweet, Sturmgewehr._

 

no lol dat gun is ak47, look at dat clip!

 Juuuust kidding


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skudmunky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no lol dat gun is ak47, look at dat clip!

 Juuuust kidding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I think we should be mainly concerned with the apparent arming of the KISS army.


----------



## necropimp

no... KI division of the SS

 >.>
 <.<


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we should be mainly concerned with the apparent arming of the KISS army._

 

It ain't the arms you gotta worry 'bout, it's the tongue getting used during hand to tongue, errr, hand combat... (Where the heck is the puking icon... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Speaking of AR’s. img]

 and will build a pistol like this:





_

 

That should be loud.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That should be loud.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I was looking at the AR pistols about a year ago. I think the Bushmasters were being built with a 7.5" or 9 inch barrel and the others were similarly short. It occurred to me to look up where the bullet was when the peak pressure was reached for the .223/5.56 cartridge. Turns out it's at 10.5". So with a barrel that is shorter than that, all you are generating is air burn of the charge. Maybe that's why so many function problems are reported with AR pistols.

 Anyway, my solution was to get this:






 It's a Bushmaster Carbon 15 M-4gery with 14" barrel and the flashhider is pinned in place. Mepro-21 day/night tritium sight on quick detach base sits over Bushy's iron sights which are integrated into the rail. The Wilderness's Giles sling, an ambi-safety, and a 30-round magazine with mag-pull makes for a light quick package.

 EDIT: It's now carrying an Aimpoint Micro.


----------



## Old Pa

With the Spaniels Spring Vacation successfully completed, it is now time to prepare for the Prairie Poodle Safari to South Dakota which commences next week. To that end, I packed up the selected firearms last night and trundled out to the range this morning bright and early. I like to shoot long ranges early in the day before the heating of the day kicks up the wind. As it was there was a breathe of air to 5MPH of WNW crossing wind when I started and between 10 and 15 MPH of WNW crossing breeze when I finished up three hours later. I was shooting from south to north.

 Since I had not fired several of these rifles in a couple of years, I started out at 100 yards to make sure they were on the paper. With only minor corrections, it was out to 200 yards to place the 200 yard impact where it should be for the range each firearm is zeroed at. The .223Rem JP-AR gets zeroed for 350 yards; which is close to the maximum sane range for .223. The .22-250Rem Striker gets zeroed for 250 yards, which is as far out as I think I can hold a pistol. The .22-250Rem Remington 700 gets zeroed for 450 yards although it shoots well out past 475. The .243Win A-Bolt gets zeroed for 325 yards which is point blank range for the factory ammo I was shooting in it. I was shooting my own reloads in all guns except for .243 where I had some .243 87gr Winchester factory from my father when his new wife decided he does not shoot guns any more. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Zeroing completed, I pulled out some Shoot ‘N See targets given me by my pal who works for Birchwood Casey who makes them.






 At 200 yards, with the appropriate hold down, the JP-AR had no trouble keeping all three rounds on target. That is an inch scale along side the target. It is amazing how well these guns can shoot. This is my prairie poodle work horse.






 At 200 yards, with kentucky windage applied, the Striker got the job done for all three shots. Not bad for a pistol with me shooting. Maybe 250 yards is a little too close . . .






 At 200 yards, you can see why I prefer my own .243 reloads. The 3rd shot is off the black target at 8:30. My reloads shoot groups under half this size, but free ammo is free ammo and this is how you turn free ammo into reloadable cases. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 At 400 yards (395 yards, actually) with the target partially obscured by tall grass, the Remington 700 shows why I prefer a fast bullet in a gusting side wind. The 3rd shot is in a line with the other two just off the right side of the black target. Just looking at the vertical displacement (because of the wind), and extrapolating for the 395 yard range, this group is under a quarter minute. Plenty good for government work.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: I see the reference inch scale did not come through. The black of the target is 4.75" wide by 7.5" tall. The most open scoring ring is 2.85" and the inside scoring ring is 1.0". These targets are about one-third the size of most adult dogs I've encountered. And when they rally for those banzai charges up the hill, it's Annie bar the door!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe I should also add that this was the first time this year that I got out to burn powder.


----------



## Hermitt

^^ Nice shootin' there Old Pa !!


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hermitt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ Nice shootin' there Old Pa !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

+1, I think the prarie pooodles are in trouble...


----------



## Redo

Sig's remain to be my favorite pistol. I'm surprised there aren't more listed in this thread.

 I'm not into personally collecting guns though. My brother does enjoy them though, and I always enjoy his collection. It's always a good Saturday when he takes me to the range


----------



## inthused

I'd like to post a picture of a few toys. Do I have to subscribe to an online photo sight in order to be able to post one here?
 Thanks for any help with instructions and/or a good sight to join. PS, If possible I definately prefer a simple sight without signing over my house and retirement and grandchildren.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd like to post a picture of a few toys. Do I have to subscribe to an online photo sight in order to be able to post one here?
 Thanks for any help with instructions and/or a good sight to join. PS, If possible I definately prefer a simple sight without signing over my house and retirement and grandchildren._

 

There should be a link around here someplace to Head-Fi's photo site. That's where I post my pictures. Hasn't cost me a nickle yet.


----------



## guitarman19853

We got 2 unfired Colt Model 1903 handguns from my grandparents. They were bought by one of their parents. Both are unfired and one has the original box/papers. I want to photograph both together but I thought I would share the pictures of one.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarman19853* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We got 2 unfired Colt Model 1903 handguns from my grandparents. They were bought by one of their parents. Both are unfired and one has the original box/papers._

 

Beautiful pair of .32ACP pistols! One of the elements of the strength of gun culture in this country is how firearms transferred down through the generations link the family through common values and prized possessions.


----------



## wakeride74

A buddy of mine has an old Colt with some notches in the handle... I know there are a lot of fakes going around but it looked pretty authentic to me.

 You guys are pretty hard core... losts of knowledge in this thread! My shooting has been pretty infrequent lately and most of my rounds are spent while camping. We set up targets and shoot into a hillside. We also have set up courses to move through w/ wood targets nailed to trees. Very fun but as far as yardage and accuracy I need to get back to a range. Accuracy isn't bad at about 25 yards or closer with the hand guns but it's been a while since I've gone to the riffle range.


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarman19853* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

Very nice, indeed. Gotta love family members like that!

 Speaking of family, I was with my father a many years ago when we took a few of my weapons out for some plinking when we ran into one of his old high school buddies from way back in the day. After we finished shooting, he invited us back to his home for some refreshments and after a few minutes of discussing guns, ammo, etc..., he invited us down to his "private" area. We stumbled through all the junk in his basement toward a rather large steel door which looked like it came from some old time bank vault. Upon entering this room, I was floored by this mans collection. From WWI and WWII ammo(Japanese and German rounds) to civil war balls, medals, etc. to long arms and handguns from every war from WWI to Vietnam. I mean some really great collectors pieces. I was dumbfounded and in a state of total shock that a collection such as this was in such a small, redneck town like the one I grew up in. He must have had a couple of hundred weapons in that room. While he and my dad were looking at a couple of civil war pieces, I noticed a bank vault....yes....a bank vault at the far end of the room. Seems he'd purchased it from a bank in KY and had a crane lower that safe into his basement as the house was being built!! Needless to say I was more than curious. Why would a man have a huge bank vault INSIDE a concrete room that already had a monstrous steel door guarding its entry way? Well, I couldn't help myself so I did just that. He had this sly grin and invited me to the safe within a safe for viewing.

 Inside that safe were some of the most beautiful and highly prized handguns I'd ever had the honor of viewing. All were fantastic but there was a special mini rack which held 5 revolvers that just floored me. This man had a set of 5 Colt Single Action Army revolvers none of which had even had their cylinders turned! Each had a different style/material grip. Some of the most beautiful engraving that I'd seen on a weapon to be sure. Oh and get this.....the 5 revolvers were a set of 3 with sequential serial numbers and a set of 2 with sequential numbers!

 Well, at that point, I was simply drooling. Foolishly I asked him what he'd want for the set of 2 with sequential numbers as I knew I probably couldn't afford three of those things at that time. He just laughed and said he'd never sell 'em and hoped to give them and the rest of his collection to his estranged son someday. Seems they had a falling out and have virtually no relationship. Well, as anyone in that position would do, I suggested he adopt me instead. That brought a laugh and an offer of some fine TN sipping whiskey to cap a fine afternoon. The rest of that day and night I held on to the memory of what I'd just seen. Truly an amazing collection!


----------



## inthused

Thanks Old Pa for your reply, I will search for it but in the meantime if anyone else knows the link I would appreciate it.


----------



## Old Pa

Yup, and this story is not in the least unusual. There are a lot of firearms artifacts out there that are literally beyond valuation other than to their owners and their friends over some sippin' whiskey. I've seen a few collections and heard about a few more. And that's yet another reason to stop the gun grabbing leftists no matter what they now say in the press.

 inthused: Please forgive my originally lazy butt self: http://photo.head-fi.org/


----------



## inthused

Thank you for your help Kind Friend. I wasn't having any success on my own searching. Now if I can only (and I will) decipher the proper procedure.


----------



## mrarroyo

KenW that is a heck of an story. Brought back great memories of the many years I lived in Spring City and Chattanooga. Just a lot of fun.


----------



## inthused

I'll second that mrarroyo, great story KenW. And to think your fathers friend is one of who knows how many others with amazing collections. I'd like to think there is at least one collector of his caliber (no pun intended) in every small town across the country. Hopefully more.


----------



## KenW

The really sad part of that story is that he and his son have no relationship due to the fathers continued support of his son's ex-wife and his grandchild. The son evidently has a tremendous amount of ill will toward his ex and greatly resents the fact that his father still considers them "family" so they have nothing to do with each other. He still hopes for a reconciliation but it's unlikely. Chances are the father will pass and leave his estate(and all those guns) to someone who can't and won't appreciate what he's accumulated over his lifetime.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Truly sad situation. Btw, I forgot to mention that when he's out and about on his property, his every day sidearm is <gulp> a government issue 1911.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw, Pa...you've got a mighty fine collection yourself. Just so you know....I'm still available for adoption!!


----------



## inthused

I don't know if these will turn out,,,,,,,newbie to photo uploads so please excuse any inconvienence you may encounter.
 I don't get out to play with these as much as I used to but planning on it if this heat ever settles down in Minnesota.
 A couple of these have never been fired, just felt like buying when the opportunity was there.


----------



## inthused

Here we go again
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 [URL="http://photo.head-fi.org/showphoto.php?photo=16697&cat=500&ppuser=5230"]


----------



## braillediver

But you know if the police ever raided the guys house he’d probably be described as a lunatic and the Huge Arsenal he had hidden would be all over the news.













 Mitch


----------



## trains are bad

I know, I hear sometimes about how 'the officers seized an arsenal (11) of weapons and thousands of rounds of ammo'. Do people know just how fast you can shoot up a thousand rounds of ammo? I probably have thousands of rounds of ammo rolling around under my car seats.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But you know if the police ever raided the guys house he’d probably be described as a lunatic and the Huge Arsenal he had hidden would be all over the news._

 

When I completed my last firearms transaction (yesterday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), the store owner (my friend and client for years) came back to tell our group at the counter that he had asked the clerk at NICS to hurry because I was "really mad and really in a hurry". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I then told him he should have told the NICS clerk that I was willing to pay NICS usual additional fee for "expedited service". We laughed like only a bunch of guys at a gun store counter during a business day can laugh.


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 But you know if the police ever raided the guys house he’d probably be described as a lunatic and the Huge Arsenal he had hidden would be all over the news. 
 

Braillediver, thank you for posting the picture for me. I thought I had it figured out but I guess I will have to keep trying. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thats why I am always curtious to people, and avoid police raids in my home 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I know, I hear sometimes about how 'the officers seized an arsenal (11) of weapons and thousands of rounds of ammo'. Do people know just how fast you can shoot up a thousand rounds of ammo? I probably have thousands of rounds of ammo rolling around under my car seats. 
 

trains are bad, not only are hobbiest buying ammo by the 1000's for target shooting or fun shooting, but like myself I purchased extra years ago simply to hedge inflation and insure I had a supply in the event it became more difficult to purchase, which it has according to friends trying to buy across state lines. 
 It has to suck to have your credit card charged and your 1000+ rounds never make it only to find out they were confiscated in transit due to "suspect order". Wait a minute, now that I think about it the guy is a little suspect, but nowadays who isn't?
BTW what type of ammo is under your seats, and would it be ok to borrow your car? I promise to clean it out before I bring it back!

  Quote:


 When I completed my last firearms transaction (yesterday ), the store owner (my friend and client for years) came back to tell our group at the counter that he had asked the clerk at NICS to hurry because I was "really mad and really in a hurry". I then told him he should have told the NICS clerk that I was willing to pay NICS usual additional fee for "expedited service" 
 

Old Pa, very funny story and congrats on another purchase. BTW, can you share a few details on your new addition?


----------



## necropimp

yeah many times i kick myself for not buying a bunch of ammo while it was cheap and available

 8mm romanian was less than $30 for 380 rounds for a while... then when i was ready to buy some it went to $45 then disappeared 

 7.5x55 GP11 was a little over $100 for a case of 480 rounds... now it's $240 minimum for a case when you can find it

 even the 7.62x54R is starting to climb... i may have to buy a few more cases before it gets any higher

 anyway...

 went to the range thursday to give my 91/59 and my M95 a proper welcome into my collection

http://media.putfile.com/Steyr-M95 was having some sticky bolt problems... video was cut while i was giving the bolt some bench assisted opening

 and then as it was getting to be that time and i still had some ammo to burn i busted out my semi-autos for some rapid fire goodness
http://media.putfile.com/Yugoslavian-M5966- some may notice only 9 rounds being fired that's because one popped off the cheapo clips i was using
http://media.putfile.com/M1-Carbine-blasting-away-40


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, very funny story and congrats on another purchase. BTW, can you share a few details on your new addition?_

 

It’s the beginning of a new rifle project. I like the .243Win cartridge, but the only rifle I have for it is a Browning A-Bolt Stalker with B.O.S.S. This is a good little “walking around” rifle and is accurate with my loads, but the 20” barrel does not really exploit the .243’s velocity potential and the removable box magazine is too short to fit cartridges loaded so that the bullet has less jump into the lands. Correcting seating depth has led to up to 40% reduction in group sizes for me with other rifles. And I have a large quantity of factory .243Win on hand. Which leads us to this (which followed me home yesterday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ):






 This is a current production Remington 700 left-handed Varmint Special Fluted (barrel) in .22-250. The black thing sticking out the bottom is a folded over nylon tool sheath and not part of the rifle; this new stock pattern wants to roll over onto the barrel when laid down. Since nobody makes the .243 I want in a left-hand model with suitable features and accuracy potential, I kind of have to go at things through the side door.

 The fluted 26” hammer-formed barrel from this rifle will come off and sit around as a spare until I burn out the tube in my other .22-250 fighting off those pesky prairie poodles (only a matter of time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). It will be replaced by a Shilen stainless steel match select (cryogenically stress relieved after boring and profiling and then hand lapped) 6mm/.243 1 in 10" twist barrel which my local gunsmith is going to chamber in .243 Akeley Improved 40˚ shoulder, cut at the longest possible length (around 27.5 inches), fit with a (you guessed it) VAIS muzzle brake, and then thread onto the VSF’s receiver.

 The .243 Akeley Improved 40˚ is an old wildcat made by blowing out .243Win cases by firing them in an Akeley Improved chamber. It increases powder capacity by about two grains, but (more importantly) increasing powder combustion efficiency by straightening out the body taper and providing a steeper shoulder for better burning swirl. Should be good for another 150 to 200 feet per second. And my gunsmith already has the chambering reamer; that was the first call that got this project rolling. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Then we throw a Timney trigger and a Leupold 8.5-25X50mm LRT 30mm tube scope with their varmint hunter’s reticle (provides for wind and range correction). All the once-fired .243Win brass is then trimmed to length, uniformed, and weight sorted. The weight sorted brass then has the necks turned to uniform them, have their necks annealed, and are loaded up with reduced charges and cheap bullets, powder and primers to fire form them in the Akeley chamber. Then loads are worked up with the new formed brass, good bullets, powder, and primers until some case expansion is measure. Final loads are a grain or two down from their in powder and are then chronographed. If they demonstrate velocity uniformity and good accuracy, we are done. If not, it’s tweak, tweak, tweak until they do. And it’s the same for every precision rifle/ammunition combo. Are you beginning to see how this hobby is a lot like headphones?


----------



## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I completed my last firearms transaction (yesterday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), the store owner (my friend and client for years) came back to tell our group at the counter that he had asked the clerk at NICS to hurry because I was "really mad and really in a hurry". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I then told him he should have told the NICS clerk that I was willing to pay NICS usual additional fee for "expedited service". We laughed like only a bunch of guys at a gun store counter during a business day can laugh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

To be quite honest, I don't buy from stores anymore. Guess I'm paranoid about our government and how the paperwork is handled. My personal preference is to deal with individual sellers.

 Hey Pa...if you do decide to part with any of your collection, drop me a PM or email. I'm always interested in adding to my small collection.


----------



## braillediver

That's Fantastic Old Pa. Passion for your hobbies is what makes life Great.


 Mitch


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's Fantastic Old Pa. Passion for your hobbies is what makes life Great._

 

That's what I keep telling She Who Must Be Obeyed. And she keeps coming in swinging her rolling pin.


----------



## inthused

Thanks for sharing Old Pa, I can smell the burn-in period already, just thinking about the perfect _dawg day_ 
 Kinda like burning in new phones and adjusting the amp. A tweak here and a tweak there, AHHHHH 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 necropimp: nice videos and thanks for posting so those that never have the opportunity to play like you do, can at least see what it's like. 

 KenW: I and others know how you feel about buying from private sellers. I was going to ask necropimp if he just purchased his Steyr M-95 from a shop or private. Hopefully it just needs a good cleaning but if not, he has a good gunsmith close by that is fair.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_KenW: I and others know how you feel about buying from private sellers. I was going to ask necropimp if he just purchased his Steyr M-95 from a shop or private. Hopefully it just needs a good cleaning but if not, he has a good gunsmith close by that is fair._

 

i bought mine from AIM Surplus

 and from what i can tell i didn't clean the chamber as well as i hoped


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_







 Mitch_

 

I spy an AMT Auto-Mag in there. Wonder if it's the .30 carbine or the .22?


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 archosman Quote:
 I spy an AMT Auto-Mag in there. Wonder if it's the .30 carbine or the .22? 
 

Ahhh you have a keen eye my friend, I purchased the Auto-Mag II many years ago when it was only one of very few being produced in 22 Magnum. As far as I could tell at the time, for some reason the industry wasn't interested in this caliber/auto combination so I added it to my little collection.
 Oh, FWIW it is quite fickle about what you feed it. Cheaper quality rounds seem to upset it's digestion. It's definately spoiled and will only consider food from finer restaurants, in fact anything less than that and it won't hesitate to spit in disgust.


----------



## Old Pa

Well the searching through closets and equipment fondling is complete and the gear is packed and ready to stage out into the car tomorrow morning for the 2007 Prairie Poodle Safari. Amazing how much kit one old guy can think he will need for three days shooting in South Dakota. Four firearms, two calibers of ammunition, portable shooting bench with machine rest and sandbags, optics and instrumentation, three coolers with 35# of ice, cleaning equipment and tools, cameras and tripods, two duffles and a briefcase. I can only hope there will be room for me in the car. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The lawn is mowed and the spaniels are looking forlorn (and SWMBO is dancing a jig) since they all know they are not going on this one. Route and pit stops are researched and planned (looks like the year of bridge repair across I-90 in SD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Sidetrips are arranged (have to make sure the Fire House Brewery is still violating child labor laws in their hiring practices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and batteries are charged. Colleagues and conspirators have been contacted and conspired with. Sporting and gun stores along the route have been warned to stock up.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the searching through closets and equipment fondling is complete and the gear is packed and ready to stage out into the car tomorrow morning for the 2007 Prairie Poodle Safari. Amazing how much kit one old guy can think he will need for three days shooting in South Dakota. Four firearms, two calibers of ammunition, portable shooting bench with machine rest and sandbags, optics and instrumentation, three coolers with 35# of ice, cleaning equipment and tools, cameras and tripods, two duffles and a briefcase. I can only hope there will be room for me in the car. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The lawn is mowed and the spaniels are looking forlorn (and SWMBO is dancing a jig) since they all know they are not going on this one. Route and pit stops are researched and planned (looks like the year of bridge repair across I-90 in SD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Sidetrips are arranged (have to make sure the Fire House Brewery is still violating child labor laws in their hiring practices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and batteries are charged. Colleagues and conspirators have been contacted and conspired with. Sporting and gun stores along the route have been warned to stock up._

 

You may have done so already but I always leave a copy of my route and itenerary with a love one just in case. Don't forget the cell phone, eye, and ear protection.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You may have done so already but I always leave a copy of my route and itenerary with a love one just in case. Don't forget the cell phone, eye, and ear protection._

 

Routes and stopovers (known of stopovers, that is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) already communicated. Cell phone, computer, and Nuvi programmed and packed. Gets easier to do after thirty-five years and after having everything set out for the last week. Eye protection packed. Won't need so much ear protection once I get out of the house.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahhh you have a keen eye my friend, I purchased the Auto-Mag II many years ago when it was only one of very few being produced in 22 Magnum. As far as I could tell at the time, for some reason the industry wasn't interested in this caliber/auto combination so I added it to my little collection.
 Oh, FWIW it is quite fickle about what you feed it. Cheaper quality rounds seem to upset it's digestion. It's definately spoiled and will only consider food from finer restaurants, in fact anything less than that and it won't hesitate to spit in disgust._

 

Heehee! 

 I remember when the first Auto-Mags came out in the seventies. Shame that Harry Sanford didn't make a better gun. I thought that I read somewhere they nicked down .308 cartridges for brass!


----------



## inthused

nice shooter archosman, looks as pretty as the day it came off the inspectors gloves. How does it shoot and is it compatible with different 
 brands and loads of ammo?


----------



## archosman

Oh I wish it was mine! I just posted a pic of the first Auto_mag Sanford built. they're going for some outrageous prices now. Never shot one...


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... the store owner (my friend and client for years) came back to tell our group at the counter that he had asked the clerk at NICS to hurry because I was "really mad and really in a hurry". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Hmm, sounds like a good reason to hurry up and hand you a firearm!


----------



## wakeride74

Can anyone recommend a good small safe to hold a single hand gun and a few clips? Something that can keep a weapon safe from kids but allow me fast access should I need to protect my family.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone recommend a good small safe to hold a single hand gun and a few clips? Something that can keep a weapon safe from kids but allow me fast access should I need to protect my family._

 



 Magazines... not clips.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Magazines... not clips._

 

what's the difference... means the same thing


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what's the difference... means the same thing_

 

No... they are not the same. Do some research.


----------



## wakeride74

Since most of us are not using clips in our old M1 grand many people interchange the two so while there is a difference by definition the words "clip" and "mag" translate to the same thing in the stores, ranges and among my friends that shoot... unless of course someone feels like debating proper verbiage.

 Anyone care to recommend a safe or shall we continue with the vocab?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since most of us are not using clips in our old M1 grand many people interchange the two so while there is a difference by definition the words "clip" and "mag" translate to the same thing in the stores, ranges and among my friends that shoot... unless of course someone feels like debating proper verbiage.

 Anyone care to recommend a safe or shall we continue with the vocab?_

 

Handgunsafe

GunVault

 The Handgunsafe model is stronger, but the GunVault versions are faster to access. Both are excellent. I used a GunVault before I moved to on-body carry.

 As for the clip/magazine common usage debate, I'm on the side of "don't care". Even gun makers use them interchangeably at times. Technically though, there is a difference, and asking AR clip may not get you what you want...


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Handgunsafe

GunVault

 The Handgunsafe model is stronger, but the GunVault versions are faster to access. Both are excellent. I used a GunVault before I moved to on-body carry.

 As for the clip/magazine common usage debate, I'm on the side of "don't care". Even gun makers use them interchangeably at times. Technically though, there is a difference, and asking AR clip may not get you what you want..._

 

I remember seeing the GunVault several years ago and had that at the top of my list but had never known anyone who had one so I wasn't sure how good it was. This is more to keep little ones from getting in which wont be a problem for a few years but I want to make sure it's safe until they are old enough to be educated.

 Which one of the GunVault models did you use?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember seeing the GunVault several years ago and had that at the top of my list but had never known anyone who had one so I wasn't sure how good it was. This is more to keep little ones from getting in which wont be a problem for a few years but I want to make sure it's safe until they are old enough to be educated.

 Which one of the GunVault models did you use?_

 

I used the Mini Vault Deluxe, mainly for the use of a wall power with battery backup.

 As for issues, there are the usual ankle biters. The electronic lock allows for key sequences 4-6 presses long, but if you make a mistake, it won't reset until a full 6 buttons are pressed. Not the way I would have programmed it, but that's the way it is. Also the keys aren't as fast as most mechanical setups, so you need to insert a brief, but distinct, pause in between each number entry. Otherwise, it worked very well.

 If I were going to buy another one, I'd probably go with the Handgunsafe though. The fact it doesn't use batteries is the deciding factor. It's also as solidly constructed as things like this get. 

 Speed and ease of use is a wash between them. The Handgunsafe can take quicker button inputs, but you need to manipulate the deadbolt to open the safe. On the GunVaults, the door just pops open once the code is entered. Also, the Simplex lock on the Handgunsafe doesn't auto reset. If you screw up, you'll need to turn the deadbolt handle to reset it. On the other hand, you don't need to worry about exceeding the lock's maximum input speed on the Handgunsafe.

 Really comes down to personal preference. Both will serve you well.


----------



## KYTGuy

I like the DAC sportsafe - has a sub plate that you can get three or more of, and mount one in your bedroom, one in each car, and so on...has an impact sensor that is adjustable, and sets off the most awful racket if it is tripped...once set off, it can go a LOOOOOONG time squawking every so often till it is reset...the safe can handle multiple open codes, like if you have a visitor who needs to safe his gun too, without revealing your open code, and you can wipe just that code when the need is gone...it has a small diameter handle that makes it awkward to carry, and painful after a few minutes...it has key override, provisions for external power if the internal AA batteries fail...mine last about a year...it has a low intensity light that is on for about five seconds at opening, enough to get a grip, without lighting you up....spring open door, so you have both hands free...plenty of room inside for passports, wallet, gun, and magazines...resettable and user selectable tactile buttons for code entry, that learns your combination of button pushes, up to a rediculous sixteen? pushes...led confirm with sonic confirm (mute-able) for each button push. 

 I have seen them as cheap as $50.00 at Sportco...


----------



## judas391

I'm particular about Counter-STrike guns.


----------



## Naga

guys, this is a major problem for me : 

 ear plugs dont seem to adequately protect my hearing from discharge - any advice?


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 Naga: guys, this is a major problem for me : 

 ear plugs dont seem to adequately protect my hearing from discharge - any advice? 
 

do you ever get to any gun shows? At times there will be a custom ear plug booth that will fit you with exactly what you need. They squeeze a colored mixture into your ear and let it set. Wha-lah, and you pick the color. I choose florescent orange so they are easy to see even though they come in a clear carry-case. 
 Hope this helps.


----------



## archosman

I find plugs and muffs are the way to go...


----------



## catachresis

Always my favorite.






 Only problem is it never kills 'em fast enough.


----------



## wakeride74

KYTGuy - That sounds pretty solid I'll have to check it out.

  Quote:


 I choose florescent orange so they are easy to see even though they come in a clear carry-case. 
 

Ha, too funny! I have the same orange ones with a bright yellow string. Had them shot for $40 which was being offered half price at a BBQ one weekend at my local shop.

 The other option is to wear foamies and the cups over those but nothing really compares to customs. Here's mine


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Naga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guys, this is a major problem for me : 

 ear plugs dont seem to adequately protect my hearing from discharge - any advice?_

 

Foam plugs can be tricky. When you put them in, you have to spin down the tip diameter with your fingers so that it will fit into and seal your inner ear canal. Otherwise, foam plugs aren't very effective. And when the foam is warm, it will expand quicklyfrom the spun down shape. So they have to be installed quickly and deftly before this re-expansion prevents them from fitting the inner ear canal. I find foam plugs effective outdoors and with smaller calibers. Otherwise, it's Peltor muffs, too.


----------



## necropimp

i just use cheapo reusable "economy earplugs" from wal-mart.. i can't stand muffs when using a rifle... the bottom always touches the stock and lifts the right side off my ear

 group photo of all the military rifles in my collection






 did someone say bayonets?


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do you ever get to any gun shows? At times there will be a custom ear plug booth that will fit you with exactly what you need. They squeeze a colored mixture into your ear and let it set. Wha-lah, and you pick the color. I choose florescent orange so they are easy to see even though they come in a clear carry-case. 
 Hope this helps._

 

I had that done at Perry but they were the worst plugs I've ever used. Didn't do a thing.


 And Necropimp, I sense a pattern here.


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 wakeride74:
 Ha, too funny! I have the same orange ones with a bright yellow string. Had them shot for $40 which was being offered half price at a BBQ one weekend at my local shop. 
 

You got a good deal. I think I paid 80 or 85 for mine at a rondevous.


----------



## KYTGuy

Wakeride74 - and others interested:

 Here is DAC SportSafe Info:

 Model ATV-2003C

 Tel# 1 (800) 920-0098
 Fax# 1 (501) 661-9108

 Web: www.dactec.com

 My Memory failed me - the combinations that it can memorize are from 3 to 6 button pushes, of the four buttons available...

 Unit weighs 15 pounds empty, ships from Arkansas, 72204

 Regards, 

 Big Ugly Guy


----------



## inthused

Looks like a nice safe KYTguy. I see what you mean about the handle for poor comfort. Gonna consider this one.


----------



## Old Pa

Got back yesterday afternoon from the 2007 SD Prairie Poodle Safari. An excellent time was had by all. Got out of town, saw old friends and made new friends, spent time out-of-doors on the western prairies, ate good grub, drank good beer, and piled up dead rodents like cordwood. Western SD has gotten some beneficial rains this Spring, beginning to break a three year drought, and the prairie was alive blooming.






 Welcome to my SD office. BR Pivot makes an excellent portable shooting table that has good adjustable seating, adequate well designed table, rugged, elegant and stable construction, and a 360˚ shooting. The rifle on the Sinclair machine rest with left hand windage top and Protektor bags is my JP Perfomance AR in .223Rem with 24” Williams bull barrel and 6.5-20x40mm Leupold Long Range Target. For this application, I use the AR as a single shot with a single shot magazine. Keeps things cooler and it’s the first shot that counts anyway, right? The Leica Geovid 8x42 binocular/rangefinder worked flawlessly; sure glad I bought mine when the dollar was strong. And my SkyWatch Meteos Anemometer/Thermometer keeps track of the local atmospheric conditions. Ammunition is either kept in the shade or in another cooler. I would shoot for a while, glass for a while, get up and make some oatmeal on my camp stove, watch the birds and the antelope, guzzle a bottle of cold water, and repeat. The idea to freeze a case of 35 pints of Kirkland drinking water worked out fabulously; not one bottle broke and we had 35 pounds of ice and almost 5 gallons of ice water out in the field. And it was HOT!






 These pretty little flowering cactuses just add to the charm of the prairie. The pastures have mostly local vegetation and grasses. The prairie dog towns are covered with mounds, denuded of grass, and go on (in some cases) as far as the eye can see. Dogs were had from 50 yards to 500 yards. There were some twofers and threefers. Notable shots included a one shot kill at 336 yards with my .22-250Rem Savage Striker pistol off the bags and several kills on dogs while Mike was trying to draw down on them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On one of my last shots, Mike’s comment was “Awww, even the East German judge would have to give you a seven on that”. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












 Mike prepares to serve another customer. He was shooting mostly .223Rem, including several ARs and a Cooper. He also had a cute little left handed A-Bolt in .22 Hornet. Did I mention that we are both left handed? His brand new Yukon XL dwarfed my Subaru Outback, but had excellent airconditioning and ran on Mike’s gas. Starting to get more of the picture?






 A native bull thistle adds both strength and color to the grace of the prairie. Mike wore snake pants; he contends all snakes are poisonous. He says if they don't bite him they'll just give him a heart attack anyway. Mike doesn’t like snakes at all. Neither of us saw any snakes all week long. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, Thursday dawned dark and grey with thunderstorms popping up on radar. So we used the flexibility in planning we maintain to declare a day in Rapid City. Our thanks to the local gun dealers, the wildlife as Custer National Park, and Meghan not Megan at the Fire House Brewery for entertainment and edification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












 What do ya know? A cute little left-handed Sako Tikka T3 stainless light in .223Rem! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It followed me home from Scheel’s in Rapid City, Ma. Can I keep it?! Huh? Can I keep it?! Huh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had been looking around for a light “walking around” rifle in .223 to supplant my A-Bolt Stalker in .243Win. This turned out to be it. Has a very smooth action, trigger breaks cleanly at 3# right out of the box, and seems rather accurate, although that has to be explored. It’s wearing a 6.5-20X40mm Leupold Vari-X III which will be sent back to Leupold for their varmint hunter reticle if that’s something they say they can do. You maybe see why I like the ramblin’ life on the wild prairie? And we are already scheduled to do the whole thing again next June. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And when I got home, there were several packages from Brownell's with parts for the new project Remington 700 in .243 AI.


----------



## randerson3024

I'm not the collector I used to be, but I bought a Glock 40mm, 9mm, and , .45 from someone who was hurting for money last time I was home. Initially, I thought they were ugly, but I have come to appreciate and enjoy them.

 I have a very valuable Holland and Holland 300 Magnum I may put up for sale next year. If I do, I will post it in this thread, providing the rules don't prohibit it.

 Cheers,

 Bob


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 Old Pa: Got back yesterday afternoon from the 2007 SD Prairie Poodle Safari. 
 

Very nice pictures and review Old Pa 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I purchased a Winchester Model 70 Sporter in .223 (walnut) 15+ years ago to experience the finer points of SD prairie game 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The plan was to fly out with a friend in his Cherokee (save on the 5 hour drive) and meet some friends already there. Well, life can change even the best of plans and the only rounds fired from the new toy was sighting it in. We never did make it and he sold the plane shortly afterward. 
 I guess I wouldn't have been shooting it there too much anyway since it doesn't have the bull barrel. I don't know what I was thinking but no matter, its still a nice rifle and another to hand down to one of my sons.

 You didn't by chance take any movie clips of the action did you? Now that would get some posts humming 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








[/IMG]
 Winchester .223 1990?


----------



## WhatMACHI

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got back yesterday afternoon from the 2007 SD Prairie Poodle Safari. An excellent time was had by all. Got out of town, saw old friends and made new friends, spent time out-of-doors on the western prairies, ate good grub, drank good beer, and piled up dead rodents like cordwood. Western SD has gotten some beneficial rains this Spring, beginning to break a three year drought, and the prairie was alive blooming.






 Welcome to my SD office. BR Pivot makes an excellent portable shooting table that has good adjustable seating, adequate well designed table, rugged, elegant and stable construction, and a 360˚ shooting. The rifle on the Sinclair machine rest with left hand windage top and Protektor bags is my JP Perfomance AR in .223Rem with 24” Williams bull barrel and 6.5-20x40mm Leupold Long Range Target. For this application, I use the AR as a single shot with a single shot magazine. Keeps things cooler and it’s the first shot that counts anyway, right? The Leica Geovid 8x42 binocular/rangefinder worked flawlessly; sure glad I bought mine when the dollar was strong. And my SkyWatch Meteos Anemometer/Thermometer keeps track of the local atmospheric conditions. Ammunition is either kept in the shade or in another cooler. I would shoot for a while, glass for a while, get up and make some oatmeal on my camp stove, watch the birds and the antelope, guzzle a bottle of cold water, and repeat. The idea to freeze a case of 35 pints of Kirkland drinking water worked out fabulously; not one bottle broke and we had 35 pounds of ice and almost 5 gallons of ice water out in the field. And it was HOT!






 These pretty little flowering cactuses just add to the charm of the prairie. The pastures have mostly local vegetation and grasses. The prairie dog towns are covered with mounds, denuded of grass, and go on (in some cases) as far as the eye can see. Dogs were had from 50 yards to 500 yards. There were some twofers and threefers. Notable shots included a one shot kill at 336 yards with my .22-250Rem Savage Striker pistol off the bags and several kills on dogs while Mike was trying to draw down on them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On one of my last shots, Mike’s comment was “Awww, even the East German judge would have to give you a seven on that”. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












 Mike prepares to serve another customer. He was shooting mostly .223Rem, including several ARs and a Cooper. He also had a cute little left handed A-Bolt in .22 Hornet. Did I mention that we are both left handed? His brand new Yukon XL dwarfed my Subaru Outback, but had excellent airconditioning and ran on Mike’s gas. Starting to get more of the picture?






 A native bull thistle adds both strength and color to the grace of the prairie. Mike wore snake pants; he contends all snakes are poisonous. He says if they don't bite him they'll just give him a heart attack anyway. Mike doesn’t like snakes at all. Neither of us saw any snakes all week long. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, Thursday dawned dark and grey with thunderstorms popping up on radar. So we used the flexibility in planning we maintain to declare a day in Rapid City. Our thanks to the local gun dealers, the wildlife as Custer National Park, and Meghan not Megan at the Fire House Brewery for entertainment and edification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












 What do ya know? A cute little left-handed Sako Tikka T3 stainless light in .223Rem! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It followed me home from Sheel’s in Rapid City, Ma. Can I keep it?! Huh? Can I keep it?! Huh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had been looking around for a light “walking around” rifle in .223 to supplant my A-Bolt Stalker in .243Win. This turned out to be it. Has a very smooth action, trigger breaks cleanly at 3# right out of the box, and seems rather accurate, although that has to be explored. It’s wearing a 6.5-20X40mm Leupold Vari-X III which will be sent back to Leupold for their varmint hunter reticle if that’s something they say they can do. You maybe see why I like the ramblin’ life on the wild prairie? And we are already scheduled to do the whole thing again next June. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And when I got home, there were several packages from Brownell's with parts for the new project Remington 700 in .243 AI._

 

Wow those photos are beautiful.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You didn't by chance take any movie clips of the action did you? Now that would get some posts humming 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've seen that type of still and video. I decided specifically not to even attempt do that either for myself or to post. I hope I don't sound too snooty, but I actually respect all my hunting quarries and highlighting the terminal effects of modern polymer tipped varmint bullets would not (to me) demonstrate the respect I feel. Furthermore, there were many other aspects of the trip I was able to image and write about that were of a more universal aesthetic to share. Finally, I don't need my butt (rightfully) banned from around here again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WhatMACHI* 
_Wow those photos are beautiful._

 

Thank you very much. Would have been even better if I had taken the trouble to rig the tripod and use the gradient neutral density and/or polarizing filters on the landscapes. It's hard not to take a good picture in South Dakota when it's been a Spring with ample rain. The whole country just blooms. I've got to take more of a dedicated photo trip out there sometime soon. One more for you:


----------



## trains are bad

Beware, my daily carry M&P9c is rusting.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blackmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I tell you this. I am not sure why they allow such a thread anyway. Telling all those young people how cool it is to have some gun at your home isn't right, IMO._

 

You're entitled to your opinion but wouldn't it be better to share it with someone who cares? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Beware, my daily carry M&P9c is rusting._

 

Ouch, that hurts. I'd give them a call and see if they will do a refinish on it. I'd be unhappy if my Glocks or Walther's ever did that. What kind of holster do you have it in?


----------



## marvin

trains are bad:

 Damn, that's fairly impressive. I figured a blackened stainless slide with melonite treatment would be the next best thing to rustless. Apparently not.

 Looks like you might have to send it in and start waxing or something it when you get it back. That's just weird.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Beware, my daily carry M&P9c is rusting._

 

First, some heavy oil on the rust and then some 0000 steel wool until the rust is gone, then solvent clean and wax. In this weather (hot & humid where I am) you might want to consider a vest or other carry system or a stainless/polymer pistol. My Kahrs do not rust.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First, some heavy oil on the rust and then some 0000 steel wool until the rust is gone, then solvent clean and wax. In this weather (hot & humid where I am) you might want to consider a vest or other carry system or a stainless/polymer pistol. My Kahrs do not rust._

 

The problem is that it _is_ a stainless/polymer pistol... The M&P's slide is stainless with a melonite treatment (ala Glock's Tennifer), then coated with a blackened stainless treatment. It's about as rust proof as it gets for guns.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is that it is a stainless/polymer pistol... The M&P's slide is stainless with a melonite treatment (ala Glock's Tennifer), then coated with a blackened stainless treatment. It's about as rust proof as it gets for guns._

 

I guess S&W's stainless must be "stainless" in practical terms in this case, huh? Sounds like the salts from body sweat must have it beat.


----------



## D1g1talV3n0m

Here is my concealed carry gun







 CZ-75B Stainless in 9mm. I love it. No issues to date either.






 And the "fun gun". Tanfoglio Limited Custom in 10mm. Awesome gun to say the least. It's a IPSC Competition Gun. I've been toying with going to 9x25 but can't find anyone to produce/modify the barrel for me.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First, some heavy oil on the rust and then some 0000 steel wool until the rust is gone,_

 

You think Old Pa? Personally I'd go with bronze wool myself, you don't want to knock off any more steel. I've used that on my S&W model 36 and it worked fine though I do admit that patience is a virtue. Of course, as soon as I got the gun gorgeous, my wife gave it away to one of the kids... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 D'Oh!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, seems to me that is way too much damage unless he's picking up something like tannic acid, though I wouldn't expect it to show up that evenly distributed.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You think Old Pa? Personally I'd go with bronze wool myself, you don't want to knock off any more steel. I've used that on my S&W model 36 and it worked fine though I do admit that patience is a virtue. Of course, as soon as I got the gun gorgeous, my wife gave it away to one of the kids... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 D'Oh!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, seems to me that is way too much damage unless he's picking up something like tannic acid, though I wouldn't expect it to show up that evenly distributed._

 

All I can tell you is that back in the 70s I worked at Eddie Bauer's on Wabash in Chicago before Spiegal bought them and when it was the biggest store in the chain and sold guns. I sold guns there. Abercrombie & Fitch was a block south and was not dressing nymphomanical teenagers at the time and had a gun department and a fulltime gunsmith. Marshall Fields was independent across the street and had a gun department with fulltime gunsmith. Anyway, I was shocked, humiliated and ashamed when my 1973 Hi-Power showed some rust at the front of the slide. So I took it around to the old German/Austrian gunsmith at A&F and he told me what I just told you about the 0000 steel wool and the heavy 30SAE weight oil. Worked like a charm. You need enough oil so there's no chance of steel cutting steel and that's why the automotive engine oil is preferred. Trains are bad may have to wrap his abrasive around a pencil or something to clean off some of those contours, but that will give him a chance to think of a way to keep the gun away from his donkey sweat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That must be some pretty nasty sweat.


----------



## mcsamms

I have some old rifles and shotguns, one is an old Winchester and the other was a custom shotgun that was my grandmother used for hunting. I wish I had some pictures, I don't have them in my current place. I don't have any new guns though, I have them for nostalgic purposes, a new firearm seems rather pointless to me unless I were to go hunting. In which case I would use one of the antique rifles which have been kept in great condition and still fire without problem. I will see if I can find a picture of them.


----------



## trains are bad

I carry it in a High Noon leather holster.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All I can tell you is that back in the 70s I worked at Eddie Bauer's on Wabash in Chicago before Spiegal bought them and when it was the biggest store in the chain and sold guns. I sold guns there. Abercrombie & Fitch was a block south and was not dressing nymphomanical teenagers at the time and had a gun department and a fulltime gunsmith. Marshall Fields was independent across the street and had a gun department with fulltime gunsmith. Anyway, I was shocked, humiliated and ashamed when my 1973 Hi-Power showed some rust at the front of the slide. So I took it around to the old German/Austrian gunsmith at A&F and he told me what I just told you about the 0000 steel wool and the heavy 30SAE weight oil. Worked like a charm. You need enough oil so there's no chance of steel cutting steel and that's why the automotive engine oil is preferred. Trains are bad may have to wrap his abrasive around a pencil or something to clean off some of those contours, but that will give him a chance to think of a way to keep the gun away from his donkey sweat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That must be some pretty nasty sweat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Department stores used to be a lot more interesting.


----------



## randerson3024

Anybody into Glocks? I bought a 9mm, .40, and a .45, all with the cool night lasers from a guy hurting for money. I thought they were ugly at first, but I have come to like them.

 I may also be selliing a very expensiver 300 Holland & Holland magnum on my next trip home this fall to fund more audio gear. Let me know if anyone is interested!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Department stores used to be a lot more interesting._

 

And that has got to be this thread's best basic example of Head-Fi frickin' understatement.


----------



## GAD

That's a nickel (not stainless) Sig P226 in 9mm. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 GAD


----------



## GAD

Oh... and a Rolex. 

 GAD


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody into Glocks? I bought a 9mm, .40, and a .45, all with the cool night lasers from a guy hurting for money. I thought they were ugly at first, but I have come to like them._

 

I like the 19 and 23 a lot. Pluses, they go bang when they should and don't when they shouldn't. Negatives, well, in my hands they aren't as accurate as a number of other guns. Which ones do you have?


----------



## rreynol

Ordered one of these earlier this week. Can't wait to take delivery of it.


----------



## KenW

Since leaving the city, I don't do much in the way of concealed carry anymore. If and when I do feel the need, I usually carry my Guardian in an Alessi ankle rig. Most comfortable ankle carry I've ever had.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rreynol* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ordered one of these earlier this week. Can't wait to take delivery of it._

 

Very nice, I've been drooling over those lately. Much as I love the grip though, the reduced capacity makes me a bit apprehensive expecially since I like 40 S&W better than 9mm.


----------



## inthused

Quote:


 Old Pa Quote:
 I've seen that type of still and video. I decided specifically not to even attempt do that either for myself or to post. I hope I don't sound too snooty, but I actually respect all my hunting quarries and highlighting the terminal effects of modern polymer tipped varmint bullets would not (to me) demonstrate the respect I feel. Furthermore, there were many other aspects of the trip I was able to image and write about that were of a more universal aesthetic to share. Finally, I don't need my butt (rightfully) banned from around here again. 
 

Very well said Old Pa.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rreynol* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ordered one of these earlier this week. Can't wait to take delivery of it._

 

I sure like my MP9; reliable and accurate. With thirty-five caliber guns for self defense, however, you are banking on the terminal performance of the bullet much more than with a .45. Did you get the night sights?


----------



## marvin

Big fan of the MK9. It's fun to shoot, easy to carry, relatively low recoil, and mine's been very reliable. A lot like a 7 shot J-frame with a very nice trigger.







 My discrete rig. Kahr MK9, Smartcarry, Kershaw Leek in ZDP189/Ti.


----------



## mrarroyo

I have not posted much in this thread so today I went to the offsite vault I keep and took the following pics. Click on the thumbnail to view the full size.


----------



## The_Duke_Of_Eli

I'm loving the .45 colts and the snubs.


----------



## GAD

MK9 is an awesome gun. The wife has an MK9 elite. The internal design is fascinating!

 GAD


----------



## braillediver

Here's an amazing video of a very lucky guy. Lucky to be alive it would seem.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8d0_1183090807

 It looks like the round ricocheted off the ground in front of the shooter on its way back. 

 Be careful guys.


 Mitch


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's an amazing video of a very lucky guy. Lucky to be alive it would seem.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8d0_1183090807

 It looks like the round ricocheted off the ground in front of the shooter on its way back. 

 Be careful guys.


 Mitch_

 

I'm sure there's a lesson in there for all of us. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go out back and shoot at these big flat rocks.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's an amazing video of a very lucky guy. Lucky to be alive it would seem.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8d0_1183090807

 It looks like the round ricocheted off the ground in front of the shooter on its way back. 

 Be careful guys.


 Mitch_

 

The story behind it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *madogre.com* 
_Willie, the father of Tina, who made the sandbag rests fires a .50BMG, an Armalite AR-50 and it ricochets off of a steel plate that it should have easily penetrated. The bullet comes straight back and hits him in the head. You can see it hit the dirt about 15 feet in front on him before it clobbers him. Luckily he was uninjured. He's a bit sore today, but otherwise fine. Lucky lucky person. He has been advised to buy lottery tickets while he still has so much luck. I don't know about the timing, but you can hear the hit on the steel plate. Time that till the impact on Willie's head... how fast is that 750 grain slug traveling? The range is 100 yards. Amazing._

 

Bullets don't always behave like you'd expect...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's an amazing video of a very lucky guy. Lucky to be alive it would seem._

 

You cannot make this stuff up. Firing a .50 at steel at 100yds?! Those bullets just do not deform. I loved the whistle of the ricocheting slug. That was some good dust it kicked up before it hit Bubba. One less bounce and he would have been toast. This guy deserves an dishonorable mention for the Darwin Awards. Now I think I'll go out and shoot at some bottles and cans floating on a lake . . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  Quote:


 A lot like a 7 shot J-frame with a very nice trigger. 
 

My sentiments exactly. My MP9 is parked in a drawer upstairs next to my Model 38; hard to choose between them.


----------



## Old Pa

This has been a pretty big two weeks for me as a rifle shooter. On top of last week’s highly enjoyable Prairie Dog trip to South Dakota, this week saw rifle projects progress unequaled. Imagine getting not one but two esoteric headphone/amp projects begun and successfully completed with wildly successful results in one week and you will have an idea.

 On Monday, I ordered the Vais for the Tikka T3 and took the Remington 700 VSF with the new parts over to my gunsmith. Tuesday was very hot and Wednesday started cooling down around here, so I spent my time paying my dues for last week out of town; besides working, I managed to put away gear, cleaned house, made a big pot of corn and crab chowder (yum-yum 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), mowed grass and the Vais arrived for the Tikka.

 Thursday dawned a beautiful and seasonable cool and sunny June morning, so it was out to the range with the Tikka to see its accuracy potential. With the 50 grain BlitzKing loads that will be its PD fodder, the Tikka shot bugholes! Little bitty sub half minute groups. Can’t wait to see what the Tikka does with heavier bullets. Came home to a voice mail message that the Remington .243AI was done. Ran over and picked it up and dropped off the Tikka and its Vais to have them married up. 

 Back to the range Friday morning with the Remington .243AI for barrel break in and to fireform some new factory .243Win to the .243AI chamber. And even during barrel break in, the Remington shot bugholes, too! Back home to receive another voice mail that the Tikka was ready as well. Hot damn!






 So here are to two completed varmint rifles. The Remington runs 12.75# and the Tikka weighs in at 7.8#. Remington wears a Leupold 8-24x50mm LRT with varmint hunter’s reticle. Tikka has a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm with duplex reticle. The stainless Shilen Match Select barrel on the Remington finished out at 27.5”






 Here’s the fit and finish on the Remington’s bead blasted Shilen stainless barrel and Vais. Is that kustom or what?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Here’s how the bead blasted stainless micro Vais looks on the Tikka T3. Made for each other!






 Here’s the Remington’s modified bolt face; trued and fitted with a Sako style claw extractor. Action is smooth as silk. Timney trigger breaks clean at two and a half pounds. The barrel channel also had to be opened up for the new tube and the action was glass bedded.






 A comparison of the a standard .308Win case on the left with the wildcat .243 Ackley Improved case. Different calibers on the same case, but the shoulder and wall change should be clear. The walls of the .243AI are blown out and straightened and the shoulder is sharper. This gives both greater case capacity and reduced case stretch. The sharper shoulder also causes the case to have better propellant burning characteristics and improves efficiency.






 Friday morning’s confidence builder group at 100 yards. Shot with my Remington 700 VS in .308Win, this cold barrel 5 shot group demonstrated to me how well I was shooting and that I might have confidence in groups I was shooting with the other new rifle. That is a 3/4 inch black paster dot. Without the first cold barrel round, the group in sub 3/8ths of an inch. Any of these shots would do your average cerebral cortex out to 300 yards.






 An interesting group from barrel break in on the .243AI at 100 yards. You may have heard how the first bullet from a cleaned barrel has a different striking point from the subsequent shots. In this case for ten shots I was cleaning and firing two shots and then cleaning again. You see there are two circled groups. The first clean barrel shot of each two grouped on the left. The second fouled barrel shot in each string grouped on the right. Voila!

 Friday on the last string of the day. Firing .243Win cases for fire forming, mind you, the .243AI hit the two inch steel gong at 395 yards six out of ten shots with moderately variable cross winds. That's a target less than 1/2 MOA at 395 yards! I think this rifle will do!


----------



## inthused

"Impressive" doesn't come close in defining the rifles accuracy, and your skills as a marksman. Unbelievable but true comes a little closer, very very nice, and now I must ask if you are but one of a group of friends that regularly enjoy results like that? Wow. You must be a very patient individual Old Pa to say the least. 
 Oh and this past week? We experienced some of the most perfect days to enjoy the outdoors. I hope there are many many more we can all enjoy this summer.


----------



## KYTGuy

Hey Old Pa - 

 That's some nice shooting...

 My Rheumy Mk I Mod I EyeBall sez that might be a .308 shell you have sitting beside the .243AI, but the illustration still holds. The necks do not appear to be the same diameter.

 I am gonna inherit my dad's best gun when he checks out, so I am not wishing it to happen soon. It is a .35 Rem AI, made on P.O. Ackleys actual machines, by his personally trained apprentice, now Gunsmith, Chick Donnelly. It is a great gun, pretty in every way. I have admired it, but never fired it. 

 Looks like you are facing a full summer of fun, breaking in and finding favorite fodder for two guns. I'm Jealous!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthused* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Impressive" doesn't come close in defining the rifles accuracy, and your skills as a marksman. Unbelievable but true comes a little closer, very very nice, and now I must ask if you are but one of a group of friends that regularly enjoy results like that? Wow. You must be a very patient individual Old Pa to say the least. 
 Oh and this past week? We experienced some of the most perfect days to enjoy the outdoors. I hope there are many many more we can all enjoy this summer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You are too kind, but there are plenty of folks I know who shoot better than this. The 1000 yard benchrest record is down around 2" right now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is just as far as I can see to practically take it. As for patience, tell that to SWMBO and she'll have a good laugh.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KYTGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Old Pa - 

 That's some nice shooting...

 My Rheumy Mk I Mod I EyeBall sez that might be a .308 shell you have sitting beside the .243AI, but the illustration still holds. The necks do not appear to be the same diameter.

 I am gonna inherit my dad's best gun when he checks out, so I am not wishing it to happen soon. It is a .35 Rem AI, made on P.O. Ackleys actual machines, by his personally trained apprentice, now Gunsmith, Chick Donnelly. It is a great gun, pretty in every way. I have admired it, but never fired it. 

 Looks like you are facing a full summer of fun, breaking in and finding favorite fodder for two guns. I'm Jealous!_

 

You're right, it's a .308. Same case and when I went back to shoot that shot again with a tripod and not handheld, I must have grabbed from the wrong bin. Damn, I hate it when that happens. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, the comparison of shoulder angle and blown out wall holds.

 Sounds like your Dad's rifle is a real keeper. I understand and agree completely about not wanting to come into title for it, but that's one of the ways out traditional common values gets passed on.

 You guys should stop by. We'll go shootin'!


----------



## GAD

Here's a little something I whipped together:






 Action: Remington 700 PSS
 Barrel: Remington 700 PSS
 Trigger: Remington 700 PSS
 Stock: McMillan A4 Tactical
 Base & Rings: Badger Ordnance
 Scope: Leupold Mark 14 M1 16X
 Bipod: Harris Notched (now removed)
 Bolt Knob: Badger Ordnance Tactical
 Bottom Metal: Badger Ordnance
 Bedding: None (yet)
 Weight as Pictured: 14 lbs


----------



## braillediver

Old Pa- where do you think the third round out of the fouled barrel would have gone? Would it stabilize near the second?

 I've seen the flyers from the first shot of a Da/Sa but found the clean and fouled shot interesting.

 I hadn't considered the Confidence Builder shots but it makes perfect sense.


 I love your methodical approach. I think it’s great when people are passionate about things- almost regardless of what they are passionate about. I know a few people who have no known passions and I can’t relate to them.


 Mitch


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa- where do you think the third round out of the fouled barrel would have gone? Would it stabilize near the second?_

 

In my experience, once the barrel has been fouled the remaining shots go to the second round impact group like my .308Win five round "confidence builder group". I try to clean every 10 rounds with jacketed bullets unless they are moly coated and then I clean every hundred. Love that moly.

 Most things I do go better if I 1) keep an open mind, 2) learn a little something about the topic, and 3) get organized. Although you would not know it if you saw my office or the adjoining "quartermaster's room".


----------



## rreynol




----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rreynol* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






_

 

Very nice, I have been thinking about getting one for a very long time. I end up using the money on some other toy.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Well I got the gun in today for my next project. I am doing a SBR on a Robinson Arms XCR platform. I have the NFA paperwork in for the 12" .223 and 12" 6.8 setup for the rifle. I am really appreciating the quick change caliber aspect of the rifle. The piston operated rifle has four levels of adjustment to tweak gas pressure and in turn recoil and brass chunking distance. Very nice shooting gun and in my opinion better balanced than the Sig Sauer 556 rifle.

 Here is the stock gun and I will hopefully be able to post pictures of the SBR in the next month or two.


----------



## SactoMan101

Speaking of which, has anyone ever fired a Dragunov SVD sniper's rifle? I've heard that while it's a good rifle, the the use of semi-automatic action and the fact most SVD's are fired with the 7.62mm x 54R cartridge used on the old Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 rifle makes the SVD not accurate beyond circa 500 meters range.


----------



## necropimp

they are accurate... but you must choose your ammo wisely... the 7N1 ammo was made for the SVD the only soviet semi-auto sniper that had any major accuracy issues was the SVT-40 snipers which were not well recieved by snipers for their noisy actions and 2nd shot accuracy problems


----------



## cutthroat

My Glock 23.


----------



## AuroraProject

I shot some different stuff today. I fired a 12 gauge for the first time (recoil was much less than I was anticipating), did some clay pigeon shooting (I actually hit a few!), shot a 10mm handgun, and a 22 cal assault rifle. I want to get a rifle now, something I can mount a scope on and do some target shooting. Preferably something small caliber and reasonably priced (rifle & ammo). Any recommendations?

 Edit: and I live in California, so it has to be legal here.

 A friend has recommended a Ruger Mini-14 Target in .223 or a Walther G22.


----------



## necropimp

well you will definately want to stay away from the rifle project i have lined up (the kind of project that will probably be finished 5 minutes before i die of old age) it's not small caliber and scoping one would not only be pointless... but blasphemy

 still alot of cleaning to be done to determine if it's worth it to even consider building a complete rifle or if i should just use it for bottle rockets


----------



## SactoMan101

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_they are accurate... but you must choose your ammo wisely... the 7N1 ammo was made for the SVD the only soviet semi-auto sniper that had any major accuracy issues was the SVT-40 snipers which were not well recieved by snipers for their noisy actions and 2nd shot accuracy problems_

 

However, there were some issues with the 7N1 and 7N14 bullets, which had somewhat iffy ballistics and penetration power at 1000 meters range. (It didn't help that that 7N1 and 7N14 bullets were rarely exported.) The SVT-40 _Tokarev_ was much-disliked because of the accuracy problems you mentioned, and as a result most Patriotic War snipers preferred the far more accurate Mosin-Nogant M91/30 bolt-action rifle.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AuroraProject* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I want to get a rifle now, something I can mount a scope on and do some target shooting. Preferably something small caliber and reasonably priced (rifle & ammo). Any recommendations?_

 

Sako Tikka T3 in .223Rem with a nice 4.5-14x40mm Leupold 1" Vari-X III scope in the rings supplied with the Tikka. There's a pix of my left handed stainless Tikka back in this thread. Very reasonably priced and accurate rifle and ammo. Scope is a little spendy, but well worth it. You can't go wrong.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AuroraProject* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I shot some different stuff today. I fired a 12 gauge for the first time (recoil was much less than I was anticipating), did some clay pigeon shooting (I actually hit a few!), shot a 10mm handgun, and a 22 cal assault rifle. I want to get a rifle now, something I can mount a scope on and do some target shooting. Preferably something small caliber and reasonably priced (rifle & ammo). Any recommendations?

 Edit: and I live in California, so it has to be legal here.

 A friend has recommended a Ruger Mini-14 Target in .223 or a Walther G22._

 

I've never heard that great of things about the Mini-14's. Don't make the assumption that because they look like a M14 that their action is based upon the M14.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never heard that great of things about the Mini-14's. Don't make the assumption that because they look like a M14 that their action is based upon the M14._

 

Well, the new Ruger Mini-14 Targets are supposed to be pretty good guns and reasonably accurate to boot. Almost as good as a baseline AR-15, albeit at greater cost. Throw in the fact that AuroraProject can't exactly get a standard configuration AR unless he's going to the off list lower route, and the Mini-14 Target doesn't look half bad.

 I'd skip on the G22 though. Ruger's 10-22 is a superior .22 autoloading rifle with much better market support.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never heard that great of things about the Mini-14's. Don't make the assumption that because they look like a M14 that their action is based upon the M14._

 

Well now I guess I've gotta say something. As a ex-Mini-14 owner, there used to be only two problems with them; they were not accurate (ie. 5" guns) and they broke. Now I hear they are more accurate (ie. 2 inch guns) since Ruger jobbed out the barrels, but they still break. Mini-14s are also not well supported in the aftermarket, whereas ARs are very well supported in the aftermarket. Still, for a relatively inexpensive target rifle in Kalifornia, semi-autos might have some problems altogether. I think the Tikka is the way to go.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well now I guess I've gotta say something. As a ex-Mini-14 owner, there used to be only two problems with them; they were not accurate (ie. 5" guns) and they broke. Now I hear they are more accurate (ie. 2 inch guns) since Ruger jobbed out the barrels, but they still break. Mini-14s are also not well supported in the aftermarket, whereas ARs are very well supported in the aftermarket. Still, for a relatively inexpensive target rifle in Kalifornia, semi-autos might have some problems altogether. I think the Tikka is the way to go._

 

That's what I kept hearing about them, that they weren't very rugged. But I haven't heard any talk about the newer models.

 Hey! CMP is going to be selling M1 Garand stocks and there's going to be a new CMP Select Grade. Damn I wish I still had my M1. Maybe I'll make a trip out to Perry and take a look at the new offerings in the fall when the M1's are available again.

 EDIT: The CMP select grade has refinished USGI reciever and metal, but a new production barrel and stock. That looks very enticing, but I wonder if they're hitting the bottom of the arsenals if they're selling spare receivers and parts in this manner.


----------



## madmax7

Love my new Springfield XD 45ACP!


----------



## AuroraProject

The Ruger I was looking at is the Mini-14 Target, but at an msrp of $895 (scope sold separately) it doesn't quite fit my "reasonable" requirement. I'll look into the Sako Tikka. I'm left handed too, so that presents some issues with bolt action rifles apparently, nice to see the Tikka comes in a left handed version.

 Edit: the T3 Super Varmint has an msrp of $1425. Which version should I be looking at?


----------



## trains are bad

[/QUOTE]

 I just sold mine yesterday, makes me miss it.


----------



## madmax7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

I just sold mine yesterday, makes me miss it.[/QUOTE]


 It is a realy nice piece. Feels great in the hand and shoots very well.


----------



## uzziah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_









_

 

my family in norway raised championship gordan setters for bird hunting; now my great-aunt has died of cancer, my great-uncle is blind and living on his own in the big old house and only one old gordan left; i dearly wish i could have had them get me a puppy before; they were such wonderful dogs; but alas wouldn't have been able to care for them in socal; in later life, i'd like to breed and train them myself, somewhere with a lot more space 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i feel ya


 also, in that house, there were rifles and shotguns everywhere, but the culture is not flippant or violent when it comes to guns; america is so rambo-confused; i can't say i'm terribly conservative about gun restrictions in this country; i know that if i started doing more backcountry backpacking and cross country skiing, i would carry a pistol; i've come upon bears several times, as well as a mountain lion and moose (i seem to have bad luck with meeting big animals-see avatar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) i carry bear-spray (big can of pepper spray basically), but if i were doing a lot of backcountry hiking, especially somewhere like alaska, i'd certainly be carrying a pistol as well; anyway, i feel that mosty i'm confused about whether or not more gun regulation would mean less gun violence in america; indeed, it's the person that is dangerous, but the difference between a crazy person with a gun and a crazy person with a knife is quite immense


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *uzziah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my family in norway raised championship gordan setters for bird hunting; now my great-aunt has died of cancer, my great-uncle is blind and living on his own in the big old house and only one old gordan left;_

 

Gordons are a wonderful breed, one of the first I looked at over 20 years ago. But the Gordons around here are show stock and the breeders only want to sell young adults after they can see they won't show well. I like to get my girls young as pups so we can bond. Thanks for your kind words.

 I think it's perfectly normal to be confused about firearms in this country, what with the level of misinformation and stridency that's out there. I wouldn't dream of shooting a wild animal in self defense unless there was clearly no alternative. It's much better to be aware of your surroundings in the woods and to respect all the other normal residents of the outback. It's perfectly fine to not know about something like firearms or firearms policy or laws, the trouble always seems to come with those who have great confidence in what they can not possibly know.


----------



## phergus_25

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AuroraProject* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I shot some different stuff today. I fired a 12 gauge for the first time (recoil was much less than I was anticipating), did some clay pigeon shooting (I actually hit a few!), shot a 10mm handgun, and a 22 cal assault rifle. I want to get a rifle now, something I can mount a scope on and do some target shooting. Preferably something small caliber and reasonably priced (rifle & ammo). Any recommendations?

 Edit: and I live in California, so it has to be legal here.

 A friend has recommended a Ruger Mini-14 Target in .223 or a Walther G22._

 

I might suggest a .17HMR

 its a rim fire so its cheap, well around $.20 per round
 and you can get out to 100 without a prob, basicaly flat
 and 200 if you want to 
 mostly paper punching unless your into rabbits and the such
 I love mine


----------



## inthused

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phergus_25* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I might suggest a .17HMR

 its a rim fire so its cheap, well around $.20 per round
 and you can get out to 100 without a prob, basicaly flat
 and 200 if you want to 
 mostly paper punching unless your into rabbits and the such
 I love mine_

 


 Also "Ideal" for fox sunning on a winter day if you are very patient and stealthy. A well placed shot leaves Minimal to zero damage. I've personally never performed the stalk but have Glassed a buddie several times and enjoyed his art of sneaking up within range, which can very greatly depending on his belly crawl & wait mood. It isn't easy to outfox a fox.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If anyone ever has the opportunity to watch someone in thier zone doing this, don't pass it up. I don't know how many times the fox will raise it's head knowing something isn't right, and stare right at the hunter (dressed in white blending in perfectly with the snow) only to tuck his nose back into his body for a restful snooze.


----------



## KYTGuy

Relatively new Website: www.downrange.tv


----------



## inthused

That 45/410 video says it all. Thanks for the website KYTGuy


----------



## braillediver

There seems to be some ammunition price increases coming shortly. I’ve read there’s a 30% price increase coming in September? Might want to check it out and stock up if you can.

 I just ordered 2 cases of 9mm for my P7 M8.


 Mitch


----------



## archosman

I want one of these!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw-o3p4ZMtE


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I want one of these!_

 

Wonder if he even hit the barn once.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wonder if he even hit the barn once. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

quite possible... it's only a 9mm and he's got a shoulder stock which helps to control recoil...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_quite possible... it's only a 9mm and he's got a shoulder stock which helps to control recoil..._

 

But look at the gun handling technique: clumsie manipulation, failure to use sights, lack of trigger and fire control. This is just "spray and pray".


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But look at the gun handling technique: clumsie manipulation, failure to use sights, lack of trigger and fire control. This is just "spray and pray"._

 

well honestly isn't knob creek all about sending a large quanitity of bullets in a generally downrange direction?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well honestly isn't knob creek all about sending a large quanitity of bullets in a generally downrange direction?_

 

No shooting is that to me.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But look at the gun handling technique: clumsie manipulation, failure to use sights, lack of trigger and fire control. This is just "spray and pray"._

 

Not to mention it's a full auto short barrel! I'd say anything over 25 yards he would be lucky to hit his target a few times.

 I'd love to go to Knob Creek though... that show they put on at night looks awesome as does the walk through course they have. Saw some great stuff on Mail Call for that place.

 I'm thinking about trading in my Desert Eagle and picking up another AR15. The DE is just fun to shoot but not very pratical and since I sold my AR about a year ago I am really missing it. Any suggestions on a nice AR around $1k?


----------



## Old Pa

This thread seems an appropriate candidate for transfer over to Gear-Fi.


----------



## necropimp

should be shipping out today... probably be here by friday


----------



## Old Pa

Did any military Mausers ever get built with stock receiver sights?


----------



## marvin

We're Number 1!

 In other news, just picked up one of these.






 Notes:

 7 round, flush fit Officers magazines suck. Last round feeding gets inconsistent ~ 200 round mark as slide speed slows from powder residue. No issues with Colt 6 rounders.

 Sig's Revolution line of 1911s do not fit into standard 1911 holsters very well. The slide has the usual Sig blockiness and is a tight fit.

 The thumb safety is very nice. Actuation of the safety has a sharp, solid, audible click. Higher weight than normal though, and wouldn't be surprised if this part didn't interchange with other 1911 parts.

 I really like the CCO format.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We're Number 1!
 ...._

 

That is barely an A-! Why should we be proud? Lets go for an A+!!!


----------



## XGJFilmsX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is barely an A-! Why should we be proud? Lets go for an A+!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

why not two guns for each man women and child, yummy extra credit.


----------



## necropimp

we already know i'm trying to make up for some of those people who don't own any guns


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *madmax7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Love my new Springfield XD 45ACP! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 

Looks like a Sig & a Glock had relations!!


----------



## applevalleyjoe

Necro, a MILSURP colleague.....do you have any Finn M39's?


----------



## XGJFilmsX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rincewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the ppl on here are probably 99% responsible etc. No offence intended.

 I can appreciate that ppl need guns for two purposes: firing range competition and hunting (tell me if there's some other purpose, self defense doesn't count, because what's the different between if someone kills you or you kill them? Still a gun related death). I reckon for either purpose, the guns would be best kept at some arbitrary (although secure) public place, like a gun owner's depot of some sort, with auditing of time in/time out, and you take the guns when and where needed and it's on record. This kind of warehouse would be best in industrial suburbs etc, not next to townhall  I think there would be less incidents with kids in homes and crazy idiots taking them to public places with only malicious intent._

 

You can claim self defense for shooting a bear. We have some nice bears up in the northeast and i would not like to get mauled. And a lot of people are collectors but most people want protection. (Example, someone breaking in to your house) But most people don't really use their weapons, maybe 4 times a year. Its there for an emergency or its there for intimidation. If you have a gun and someone else does each are scared of getting shot by the other so the weapons are not even used. Kinda like the cold war. Just a stand off to intimidated your opponent. A rough percent of the US population kill people with there guns. The thing is America has the most guns per people, so if you give a place like Burma the same percent of guns per people we have i think you would be more scared of them. And there will always be events like Columbine, there are crazy people in the world and one crazy person with a gun shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us.

 Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, heart stoppage do to massive blood loss kills people......


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we already know i'm trying to make up for some of those people who don't own any guns_

 

That's my story, too, and I'm stickin' with it.

 Marvin: I tried a bunch of the Sig 1911 triggers and was not impressed. Seemed it would take another $100 to make things acceptable. Interesting to hear they goober up within 200 rounds enough to be unreliable on last round feed. This is something I don't usually encounter in 1911s until 800-900 rounds post cleaning.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applevalleyjoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Necro, a MILSURP colleague.....do you have any Finn M39's?_

 

not in my posession but scroll up and you'll see the one that is on it's way to me right now


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marvin: I tried a bunch of the Sig 1911 triggers and was not impressed. Seemed it would take another $100 to make things acceptable. Interesting to hear they goober up within 200 rounds enough to be unreliable on last round feed. This is something I don't usually encounter in 1911s until 800-900 rounds post cleaning._

 

The trigger isn't great for a 1911. The pull weight is low and there isn't any obvious grittiness, but the trigger deactivated firing pin safety adds an kink midway in the pull. It's actually a bit mushy, which is odd for a 1911. Still, it's acceptable for a carry piece.

 As for reliability, well, it's not the worst I've had. It's been running 100% for the last 500 rounds with the Colt 6 round magazines and without cleaning. Frame to slide fit is loosening up nicely as it wears in. It's definitely a wait and see thing though.

 I would have preferred a Colt Gunsite CCO, but those are about as spendy as a full custom gun and getting kind of hard to find to boot. A few Series 80 CCOs have passed through my hands, but those uniformly required more gunsmith work to get to 100% than would be prudent. Seems like no one wants to get rid of their working ones.


----------



## Old Pa

Marvin: Still, it's a cutie. Picked up a couple of 2" Kimber CDPs when they came out years ago (Kimber I; before they thought they knew more about firearms design than JMB) for the same purpose. They shoot surprisingly well, especially with 200gr H&G58s. A short 1911 that works is an enviable design.


----------



## MexicanDragon

My little addition... a Les Baer Custom Extreme Tactical 5" 1911. Just a little something I found in the "For Display Only - Not For Sale" case. Hehe... that's how I roll... buying $#!+ that's not forsale (hehe... I actually traded another 1911 (mil-spec) and a broken down cadillac for this little beaut. I think I came out OK in the deal. <g>











 **BRENT*

 P.S. The trained eye will notice the where the foam is from... **HINT**... look at a silver/grey box in the background.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MexicanDragon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(hehe... I actually traded another 1911 (mil-spec) and a broken down cadillac for this little beaut._

 

Barter is a gun culture tradition; money is an inadequate representation of some property's value.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Got myself a new revolver this evening. Ruger New Model Blackhawk Bisley Model with 5.5" barrel in .357 Magnum. Seems to be an odd gun as they didn't seem to make a lot in this configuration. I just hope it shoots as good as it looks.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Went to the range to test the new revolver and found a great collection of classic revolvers in the consignment cabinet. Most appeared to be relatively unused. I only got this one since I don't have any Colt revolvers. I know it is not one of their highly collectible classics but it shoots very nice and I think it will prove to be a gun that will outlast me.


----------



## Old Pa

vpivinylspinner: Both revolvers look very nice and quite respectable. I own neither, but have considered each at earlier times. A two gun day is certainly different from a one gun day. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You must have a certain sense of _"fullness"_.


----------



## necropimp

after some issues with ups trying to deliver at a time of the day when almost nobody is home to sign for a package delaying the shipping another day it's finally here














 this is probably the only rifle i'll never own a bayonet for... at least not an original


----------



## watchluvr4ever

Here's my new one, a Lewis Machine & Tool CQB length MRP! Sights and accessories are on the way.


----------



## wakeride74

Nice! What kind of range is that thing good up to?


----------



## marvin

/Drool.


----------



## cyberspyder

My ZEDU zombie rig...
















 [size=xx-small]...Just kidding...with the laws in Canada, you'll be lucky to even own an exacto knife!!! Those are from my fine brothers at USN...[/size]

 Brendan


----------



## vpivinylspinner

I think I am on some kind of .357 Magnum kick. Three new revolvers in the last four days. Could not pass up this monster S&W 686-2 with adjust front and rear sites. Excellent condition and should be a lot of fun..


----------



## Naga

noob question; how well do you recover from kickback with such a looong barrel?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I am on some kind of .357 Magnum kick. Three new revolvers in the last four days. Could not pass up this monster S&W 686-2 with adjust front and rear sites. Excellent condition and should be a lot of fun.[/IMG]_

 

You know with some 110 gr. .357 Sierra BlitzKing/WW296 loads, that would be a dandy prairie poodle gun within 125 yards. Let me know if you ever get tired of it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 noob question; how well do you recover from kickback with such a looong barrel? 
 

Much better than with a shorter barrel. More weight = less perceived recoil/kick. Longer barrel = less blast.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Naga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_noob question; how well do you recover from kickback with such a looong barrel?_

 

It's actually easier to control with a longer barrel...


----------



## Naga

Thats interesting, having shot a beretta neos 4.5 and 6.0 i found the 4.5 easier to control between shots. It could just be me, or the fact that id used the 4.5 more than the 6.0.

 And its a little pea shooter .22 .


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Naga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats interesting, having shot a beretta neos 4.5 and 6.0 i found the 4.5 easier to control between shots. It could just be me, or the fact that id used the 4.5 more than the 6.0.

 And its a little pea shooter .22 ._

 


 I meant in terms of recoil.


----------



## Naga

my apologies: what i meant to convey was that i found recovery easier in the shorter neos between shots


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Naga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my apologies: what i meant to convey was that i found recovery easier in the shorter neos between shots_

 

It's likely a balance issue for your case. The 6" has a CG a bit forward compared to the 4.5". Also possible that it's due to sight realignment being faster with the shorter barrel.

 As for recoil, it's quite possible to have more physical recoil with a long barrel than a snubby, especially in the S&W Airlite revolvers, but the additional blast incurred due to incomplete powder combustion in the barrel adds quite a bit to perceived recoil.


----------



## ast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GAD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a little something I whipped together:







 Action: Remington 700 PSS
 Barrel: Remington 700 PSS
 Trigger: Remington 700 PSS
 Stock: McMillan A4 Tactical
 Base & Rings: Badger Ordnance
 Scope: Leupold Mark 14 M1 16X
 Bipod: Harris Notched (now removed)
 Bolt Knob: Badger Ordnance Tactical
 Bottom Metal: Badger Ordnance
 Bedding: None (yet)
 Weight as Pictured: 14 lbs_

 


 Great looking and classic. How much is the total?


----------



## necropimp

some new pics of my M39


----------



## Old Pa

A/K/A Local area security. Firearms are used thousands of times each year by law abiding Americans to prevent and stop serious crimes. Those drafting the Bill of Rights felt so strongly from their own personal experiences of the right to bear arms that it is ranked only beneath the right to free speech. Private citizens in the United States on average utilize firearms to prevent or stop serious crimes _ten times more often_ than do law enforcement officers. The reason is obvious: the lawfully armed private citizen is at the scene of the crime. Here at Casa del Old Pa, we try to practice security first by being alert, then by being prepared, and finally, should it be necessary, by acting lawfully, competently, quickly, and ruthlessly (and without stoppoing to admire our work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). If we have time, we call the police. If we do not have that time, we do the best we can.

 Ownership of firearms does not equate with competence with firearms. Competence with firearms must first be learned and must then be regularly practiced. Like any other athletic skill, muscle memory comes into play and abilities ramp steeply up with recent practice and steeply down with no practice. What we strive for is the correct reaction performed at the speed of thought under severe stress in miserable conditions. Perfection is not possible, but the more we practice, the luckier we tend to get. Besides my police background from thirty years ago, I currently have certifications from seven different week long courses at Gunsite and The Site (including pistol, shotgun, carbine, and precision rifle), have competed in USPSA and IDPA, and have taught the legal implications of lethal force in state accredited concealed carry training courses. I practice live fire whenever I can, but never enough. :;






 All these defensive firearms are semi-automatic in operation. All long arms are equipped with The Wilderness’s excellent Giles sling which allows them to hang across the front of the operator’s body in a well retained muzzle down ready position. The two shotguns are 12 gauge M1 Benellis with short barrels and rifle sights. Both have additional ammunition carried in side saddles; their usual fodder is Brenneke slugs and #1 buckshot providing tactical selection. Shotgun loads are in standard field and not magnum loadings. Shotguns at close range are exactly what the goblins do not want to see. Shotguns mean “cease and desist” in every language imaginable. The Sure-Fire light equipped M1 also has ghost ring sights, which I really like for speed and precision.

 The Colt AR M4gery is in .5.56NATO with a JP trigger group, a device that sets the grip back 0.5”, an Aimpoint Model C dot sightbacked up by folding G&G iron rear sight, a Sure Fire forend with incorporated light, a Vortex flash suppressor, and shows a MagPul on its 30rd magazine. Its fodder is a 60 grain Hornady VMax at 3000 feet per second. Carbines provide fast accurate fire over a much longer range than do shotguns or pistols.

 The Kimber Gold Combat RL II (from Kimber’s Custom Shop) 1911 in .45ACP has fixed tritium night sights, extended magazine well, fine line checkering on the front- and backstraps, forend serrations to check chamber, ambidextrous extended safety, and all the usual other bells-and-whistles custom fitted. While I am not fond of the new extractor and firing pin safety, they have worked in this gun flawlessly through extended practice. It is fitted with a quickly detachable SureFire X200 high powered LED weaponlight. Defensive pistols are intended to be close to hand, powerful enough to reliably stop an adversary, and very quick within close confines.

 Firearm mounted lights work well with tactical firearms in self defense applications; target identification is critical and tactical shooting situations usually have poor light. If the light is already on the firearm, it is that much harder to forget. And extremely bright focused light coming out of the dark can disorient and demoralize a goblin, taking them out of the fight without a shot being fired.

 Stop by the house whenever you can, but don’t forget to call first.


----------



## watchluvr4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice! What kind of range is that thing good up to?_

 

I bought it primarily for CQB but I imagine depending on the ammo used it might be good up to 300 meters or so. I can't give you an exact figure because I've not shot it yet and I am fairly new to the AR15 rifles.


----------



## Quaddy

the ol barrett is getting the most use at the moment...






 ...in battlefield 2 mod, hehe - yah right, i am in uk and i can only drool at you guys pices.


----------



## lisnalee

Nowhere near as exciting as most of the weapons here, but they do the job.

 Theoban .22 and a Lanber o/u 12g


----------



## GAD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great looking and classic. How much is the total?_

 

About $2500. Someday I want to get the action blueprinted and the stock professionally bedded, but I've got tubes to lust after. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 GAD


----------



## ast

nice GAD. I've been lusting over similar 700 for a while. I will get it some day!


----------



## rb67

Had the chance to go shooting with my girl a few weeks ago. We rented a Beretta Neos .22lr and a USP 9mm. I have to say, both excellent, but the Neos was real fun! The ergonomics was great and there's nothing like shooting a box of ammo that costs $3...

 Another note, she's a much better shot than I. Both our 3rd time shooting. Gonna have to practice


----------



## Naga

nice, what was the barrel length on the neos?


----------



## Old Pa

After a successful phase of fireforming 560+ rounds of new commercial .243Win to .243 Ackley Improved (0.5" accuracy demonstrated), the "brass fondling" began. Consistent and concentric are the watch words of precision brass uniforming. Commercial brass exhibits manufacturing variances in every imaginable way. 

 First, resize and trim to length. Next, dechamfer, ream primer pockets, and uniformly remove the internal flanges formed when the primer holes are stamped. Finally sort by weight after establishing the mean weight and standard deviation for fifty cases. Average weight cases are then neck uniformed, improving both concentricity and consistency. 

 Heavy cases will be used for working up powder charges. Since we have uniformed everything we could already, heavy cases must be heavier because of additional brass in the body. This means their internal volume will be lower and maximum working pressures will be achieved with lower powder charges. Maximum propellant charges worked up with heavy cases will be safe in average and light cases, all other things being equal.

 And last week's trip to ND scouting PDogs was highly successful. Found towns, got maps, met good folks, and received invites to shoot on private farms/ranches. Theodore Roosevelt National Park and the ND badlands were well worth the ride themselves, although the winds were fierce most days for the new V-Strom, curtailing the ground I could cover in four days. Ahh, the roamin' life on the high prairie . . .


----------



## shomie911

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a bit of a Smith and Wesson fan...




_

 

Was this the AR-15 rig you were talking about?

 Very nice.



 Anyway here's mine:

 (This is an airsoft gun but since I've put about a $1000+ into it, I think it deserves to be on here too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 Tell me what you think of it!


----------



## shomie911

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D1g1talV3n0m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is my concealed carry gun





_

 

Sorry for the double post.

 Is that tac-light one of those Fenix's or is it a copy? How does it compare to your other lights (if you have any others)? Thanks http://www.fenixlight.com/

 Here's my torch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Night-Ops Gladius - Forget Surefire spend $200 AND actually get $200 worth of a light.

 (The M-9 is also airsoft and is undergoing a trigger and hammer spring replacement, hence the missing trigger and hammer.




 (Oh and behold the zip-ties and block of wood mag-clamp. Looks pretty "interesting" but its lasted longer than my other metal ones and cost nothing so I'm happy.)


----------



## AdamP88

Had the opportunity to go shooting for the first time while visiting my uncle out in Wyoming. He's gotten to be quite a shot and was big into trap shooting for quite a while, but there isn't a good trap shooting setup at his local firing range. We went up into the national forest, found a nice clearing, and put out some targets. Prior to this I had never held a real gun, and he brought along 3 guns, a Ruger .44 similar to this:






 A Freedom Arms .357 magnum:





 And a .44 lever-action carbine, I forget the make.

 For never having fired a gun before, I didn't do too bad. Most shots were close to the target, and out of 6 rounds I usually managed to group at least 3 within a couple inches of each other. I have to say I expected the kick to be a lot worse from the Ruger just based on the size of it, but it wasn't that bad. My favorite by far was the Freedom .357. The smooth grip was a little tricky to find a good fit with at first, but it also allowed for a really easy recoil, and it seemed the most well balanced of the bunch. I liked the feel of the carbine though - it seemed a more natural shooting position to be holding a rifle than a pistol - it was much easier to steady myself there.

 Anyway, my uncle also showed me a Remington bolt-action .306 that he'd done extensive modification to in preparation for his first elk hunt. I didn't get a chance to shoot it since he hadn't zeroed it in yet, but he was really excited about it and the hunt. I've got to share this story with you that he emailed the family after his hunt. I found it pretty moving (apologize for the length):

  Quote:


 It was likely my first and last hunt. It turned into one of those life-transforming experiences. We (Marion Robinson and his Father, Bruce, the people whose coop farm Halina joined) left at 6:30 in the morning and headed to a steep canyon country west of the Snake River Canyon (the one you drive through on the way to Jackson). We were to meet a couple of friends of the Robinsons at the top, where they went on horseback by a different route. We climbed extremely steeply up the walls of the canyon, Marion on one side, and his father and I on the other. This climb makes the one you, Mark and I did a trivial piece of cake. The weather was wintery, with rain and snow and low chilly clouds obscuring visibility on many occasions. The climb was grueling, up slopes of 45 degrees and sometimes steeper. There are no trails. Bruce once fell and only just managed to grab onto a protruding root and thus didn't go a long way. Of course we are carrying back packs and rifles, the latter often getting caught in branches. Once we got to the top of the ridge we had to continue ascending the ridge to the top of the canyon. We saw evidence of elk everywhere: we were in elk city! But we didn't see any elk.

 Eventually we got to the top (after about 2.5 hours) where we managed to get in touch with with Marion, who climbed on the southern ridge. He had already found the two friends on horseback, who had a nice fire going. We all sat around the fire trying to dry out. Our pants and boots were steaming profusely. We ate and drank water, and generally warmed up and restored our energies. It was time to start heading back along the huge ridge Marion came up on. The three of us spread out hoping to cover a broader swath of ground and thus increase our chances of running into an elk. I was on the side closer to the deep canyon by which we came, Bruce in the middle, and Marion on the side paralleling another deep canyon. Somehow we lost touch with each other. I yelled out frequently, but never heard a response. I tried twice to start coming down the side of the canyon to then follow the canyon to the bottom and then eventually the road. But each time I would end up on top of a near vertical cliff. I had to climb back out, which was a grueling effort up an extremely steep slope, fighting shrubbery all the way. Of course, the shrubbery also made it possible to climb and descend by grabbing onto branches. The effort exhausted my energy and rendered my legs sometimes unable to obey my will; they were stiff and extremely sore, as was the rest of my body.

 At one point I suddenly saw a bull elk, at a distance I estimated to be between 200 and 300 yards. Under normal circumstances, I knew I could make the necessary shot. But with my fatigue, I doubted that I could hit the side of a barn at that distance. And, even if I managed to "harvest" it, we would never be able to get it out. I had no clue where Marion and Bruce were! And I realized that here is this beautiful animal, who easily manages life in this unforgiving wilderness. At that moment, I could only feel respect for the animal. As the elk noticed me, it trotted past a ridge and disappeared. I fired three quick shots (A universal distress signal), but heard no response. Half an hour later I repeated the process, with the same results. I was beginning to think that I may have to try to survive the night, even though I was wet, and the temperature was already below freezing. But the thought of how this would scare Halina and my partners persuaded me that I must make an effort to get out of there before nightfall. I said "Please God let me find a way out of here." I ate a few dates, drank some water, and again attempted to find a way down. As luck, or God, would have it, I did come to a place where the slope of the canyon wall looked more manageable. It still looked precarious, but by now I knew I needed to get down before dark, one way or another. So I started to climb down. Twice I fell and tumbled 10 to 15 feet, grabbing branched to eventually arrest the fall. My rifle kept getting tangled up in branches, and was throwing me off balance to further complicate my descent. It was slowing me down terribly! As I was reaching complete exhaustion, I finally decided that I needed to get rid of the rifle. I looked at it and then tossed it into a thicket of mountain maples. At the same time I told myself that I will no longer hunt, that it didn't make sense to risk losing my life and depriving my wife of her husband, and my kids of their father for the sake of a rite of manhood. I am practically 61, for God's sake! Why did I need to do this?

 I did mange to finally make it down to the highway, after several more falls, bang ups, a somewhat sprained knee, skinned shin, etc. I am just glad that I've been exercising in the gym, that I am now stronger than I've been since my high school days, that my bones are strong, that I am not afraid of heights and exposure, and that my willpower and faith were stronger than my body.

 When I hiked back to the pickup, Marion and his father were not there. That really worried me. It meant that they may still be up there in the wilderness looking for me, or they had some problems of their own. I took off the backpack and started thinking that I have to start going back up, on a trail now, to find them. I didn't know how I would do that, given how exhausted I was. As I turned to look up into the canyon I saw a most wonderful sight: Marion with the hunter orange hat emerging from the shrubbery and saying "God, am I glad to see you!" "Am I glad to see you!" I responded. Turns out they had gotten back to the truck earlier, did not find me there, and decided to go back to look for me. Marion made a fire for his father to rest by, and he was to start the arduous task of climbing back up onto the ridge where we last saw each other. It is now past 5 PM, and really cold. He is wet, just as I am. Fortunately, as he started the climb, he saw me walking up on the highway.

 We got into the truck and started towards home. I was extremely sore and tired, but elated that it all ended well. Marion said a beautiful prayer of thanks for the happy ending. It turns out that Marion also had fired three quick shots; did it three times and never heard an answer. We must have been really far from each other, and on opposite side of the broad ridge. He was extremely apologetic, said he should have known better than suggesting that we spit up under the circumstances. But I told him that I am to blame. When I first lost sight of his father's orange hat, I should have backtracked immediately up the ridge to find him. Instead I kept going, thinking that all I have to do is descend into the canyon: how hard could that be?

 When I dropped Marion and Bruce off at their farm, I gave Marion my nice rifle case and all the ammunition I had (his rifle is the same caliber). I miss my rifle, into which I put a lot of work to make it precise. It was a beautiful rifle with a high precision scope, and an excellent shooter by the time I finished working on it. The total cost was around $1600. But its loss was part of a deep lesson that I will never forget. I think my life was changed permanently. And I think I made two new friends. I am amazed that Bruce was able to make the trip. Although he really struggled, and said he'll never go there again, this comes from a 72 year old man who had heart bypass surgery 10 years ago! Marion is a wonderful young man. The way he relates to his father, his respect and concern for him told me everything I need to know. I'll go on some of their hunts, in easier territory from now on, as an observer and photographer. The bonding I saw between the two of them tells me that these experiences will make us great friends. And for that too I am thankful.


----------



## necropimp

no new guns at this time but i did get a flag so new pic


----------



## braillediver

Please post pictures of your favorite firearm or collection for the rest of us gun owners to ogle over.

 I sold my other CCW’s and have been acquiring the H+K P7 M8 for use as my primary CCW.











 One amazing feature of the P7 M8 is- I can remove the firing mechanism in a second with my finger rendering the gun unusable.







 Mitch


----------



## grawk

I love the p7.

 I'd post pictures, but I don't have them insured yet, and don't want to make myself a target


----------



## no1likesme

/drool

 I am gonna have to take some pics of my guns when I go home in a few weeks


----------



## braillediver




----------



## marvin

Service pistols in steel and rubber.

*Left to Right:*
Smith and Wesson 681+ in .357 Magnum
Fabrique Nationale Herstal High Power in .40 S&W
Ceska Zbrojovka CZ 75 SP-01 in 9x19


----------



## braillediver

Sig P229 Sport in .357 Sig. It’s Stainless and has a compensated barrel.











 There’s no recoil with the compensated barrel just a quick snap in the web of your hand. The gun's a lot more accurate than I can shoot.


 Mitch


----------



## warnsey

Wow this thread really does perpetuate the gun toting American stereotype. Each to there own I guess.
 P.s This thread is not a dig at all you Americans I am just really amazed at the amount of hardware some of you guys own.


----------



## setmenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warnsey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow this thread really does perpetuate the gun toting American stereotype. Each to there own I guess.
 P.s This thread is not a dig at all you Americans I am just really amazed at the amount of hardware some of you guys own._

 

Firearms can be a very addictive hobby!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Interests can also be very wide ranging, they have a long history.


----------



## braillediver

Just read Old Pa’s thread above about reloading and his methodology, patience and enthusiasm. He’s like a mad scientist trying to squeeze the utmost in performance out of some brass, gunpowder and lead.

 It’s inspiring and admirable. I really like people who are passionate about things.

 Firearms are amazing because they embody- craftsmanship, technology, physics, metallurgy, chemistry, fine materials etc. To me the are the ultimate functional art.


 Mitch


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_??? What is this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's gaijin, I think a gun stole his girlfriend or something.


----------



## grawk

You're not putting up a fight, you're being a whiny little girl


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lst002* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just like to put up a fight (after all, I'm a boxer)._

 

A boxer who spends his time complaining on a forum (immature name-calling included)? Chill out man.


----------



## necropimp

1. i already asked that you keep such posts out of my thread.. post is being reported
 2. ban evasion is a big no-no everywhere else... i doubt head-fi is any different
 3. i'm assuming your name is random letter and numbers but LST is a designation of a military ship here's a pic of LST-325 in Normandy in 1944... here is it in it's current home... a 5 minute drive from my house

 oh and where are my manners...
 forgot to post this






 1945 Izhevsk M44 laminate stock


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Service pistols in steel and rubber.

 [*]Ceska Zbrojovka CZ 75 SP-01 in 9x19_

 

Little review please, Marvin. I've been eying a few different CZ's for a while now (I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread). I've can't find them local. Keep in mind, I have a small hand.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Little review please, Marvin. I've been eying a few different CZ's for a while now (I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread). I've can't find them local. Keep in mind, I have a small hand._

 

Also smallish hands with stubby fingers here. It's really one of the nastier consequences of being 5'6". Being shortish never bothered me, but having smaller hands have denied me joys of double stack Sigs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for what I think of it? I'm really liking it. I easily prefer it to all of the full-size polymer pistols I've owned (G17, M&P9, XD9, USP9). Against the Hi-Power... It's much closer with the CZ edging out the Hi-Power. If I knew before what I knew now though, I'd have skipped the SP-01 and found a CZ 75 Compact .40 S&W.

 Here's my findings in pro/con style.

*Pros:*

 Very low recoil with minimal muzzle flip: High mass, good mass distribution, and low bore axis is a very good combination.

 Cocked and locked is an option: Just in case you don't like the DA/SA transition. With the hammer design and the halfcock notch, decocking a safety equipped version is still safe and easy.

 Inexpensive: Mine ran me $450 NIB with tritium night sights, two 18 round mags, cleaning tools, and a couple of snap caps.

 Short trigger reset: No, it's not a 1911. But, it's on par with the best non-1911 designs. (Glock, S&W 3rd generation) I haven't tried Sig's new SRT style though.

 Good accuracy: For a production duty style gun. Slide to barrel lockup is very good, and slide to frame is better than the polymer wonders. Practical accuracy is also easy to obtain due to low recoil, good sights, and decent trigger.

 Ergonomics: Definitely a personal thing, but recontoured trigger and backstrap are big improvements on the CZ 75, especially for people with small hands. The checkered rubber grips are great.

*Cons:*

 Looks: Functionally ugly. The dustcover rail makes it look a bit bulbous, polycoat is one of the uglier finishes, there are obvious machining marks throughout the pistol's interior, etc.

 Weight: It is an all steel pistol. 42 oz when unloaded is fairly hefty.

 Safety: Taking the safety off one handed is easy. Putting it back on one handed is next to impossible. The extended 1911 style is superior.

 Balance: The CZ-75 has near perfect weight balance for me. The SP-01 is a bit nose heavy due to the rail. This is a tradeoff for muzzle flip.

*???:
*
 The trigger pull falls under both categories. CZ triggers are hit and miss. Many will have initial trigger grittiness due to a lack of finishing. A bit of grease and a lot of dry firing will fix this. After it smooths out, the trigger is a good DA/SA one, an excellent short, positive reset. Weight is a bit high when stock, mine breaks at 12 lbs DA/6 lbs SA. 

 DA, even at halfcock, is a long constant weight affair. Perfectly acceptable if you're used to revolvers. SA mode is a three stage affair. There's some pre-travel when you start the trigger pull, then a slight increase in weight as the trigger disengages the firing pin block. After that, the pull stiffens up and gradually increases until the hammer drops. This is due to the undersquare hammer/sear engagement angle on all factory CZs, and you're actually cocking the hammer a bit in SA mode. While it certainly works well enough, it's not the proverbial glass rod break.

 Yeah, I'm being a bit tough on the trigger pull, but mainly because it's something CZ could fix with very little effort. Just squaring up the sear/hammer angles and polishing the trigger/sear/hammer group before sending it out would work wonders. Still, it's understandable given the CZ's military origins. Either way, only Sig still makes a better out of the box DA/SA trigger, and not by much.


----------



## archosman

Anybody think this might be a bad idea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsV50...mmercial%2Ephp


----------



## necropimp

yes and no... depends on the situation

 someone with kids should probably pass on it someone who lives alone in a bad neighborhood could use something like that

 i just keep a revolver under the bed in it's holster


----------



## skudmunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody think this might be a bad idea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsV50...mmercial%2Ephp_

 

hahaha, the guy saying "many customers are buying 2, one for each side of the bed" cracked me up so hard. That's so awesome!


----------



## Old Pa

.243AI: Fire formed brass has toured all the "stations of the cross", the normal weight cases are neck uniformed, and sixteen rounds of the heavy sorted culls are loaded with incrementally increasing charges of Varget in front of Federal Match Large Rifle primers and behind 70 grain Sierra BlitzKings set 0.015" off the lands of my rifle. 

 Although the Varget is fairly temperature neutral, I've got to get the pressure testing done before weather turns cold. The .243 Ackley Improved has fairly straight sides and sharp shoulder, so pressure signs appear more gradually. I'll work up the loads until bolt turn gets harder on ectraction or primers flatten and crater. If obvious case changes don't show high pressure within the range of these charges, I will mike the fired cases when cooled back in the shop to see if there is 0.001 expansion before trying any higher charges than these. One grain lower charge than what showed overpressure in the normal weight cases should do it. I only chronograph after pressure testing so that I am not driven to over pressure loads by the "speedometer". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .357RemMag: For some perverse reason, I want the close prairie dogs to be realistic challenges and not just "low hanging fruit". My original attempt at this goal, the Savage Striker in .22-250Rem proved accurate beyond 325 yards and is therefore not the answer. So I hatched upon the idea of putting something with iron sights together to shoot Sierra's only varmint handgun bullet the 110 grain .357 Blitz. 

 After finding all the long barrel S&W L and N frame .357RemMags to be fully appreciated (don't you hate it when the gun collectors get the whip hand over the actual shooters?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), so I settled on getting a twelve inch bull barrel in .357RemMag for my Thompson Center old model Contender. What a sweet combination! The extra barrel length burns all the powder reducing blast and increases sight radius, and the weight reduces recoil. First time I shot it I was keeping 90% of stout 140 grain loads on a three inch gong at 25 yards. offhand. Also picked up 500 pieces of new Remington .357 brass (BRASS PRICES!?!?!?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to regularize and load up over the winter.

 NoDak scouting trip on my new scoot was highly successful: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...88#post5570088

 Gotta run. I've got to update my presentation on lawful use of lethal force for the local CCW classes and the spaniels want to go out and play.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Also picked up 500 pieces of new Remington .357 brass (BRASS PRICES!?!?!?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to regularize and load up over the winter._

 

I know what you mean about the prices of reloading components. I just spent 300 dollars on 41 Magnum cases, bullets and Dillon caliber conversion/dies so that I can start reloading for a used Blackhawk I picked up to go with my .357 magnum Blackhawk. 






 By the way, I love reading about your reloading work. I find this stuff fascinating.


----------



## Old Pa

Final load for the select .243AAI cases with the molyed 70 grain Sierra BlitzKing and the Federal Match LR primers turned out to be slightly north of 45 grains of Varget. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I don't mention exact charges because they are particular to firearm and load components; your mileage may vary greatly! Utilizing molyed bullets alone usually allows me another grain or two of propellant; It takes that much less energy to start a lubricated bullet into the lands. Turned out I had guesstimated pretty well and the best charge was right in the middle of the four I had set out. It doesn't always work that way; that's what the lighter charges are for. In this case, we went a grain lower than where the test heavy cull cases showed harder bolt turn which was corroborated by a mean of 0.0008" expansion in the fired case base over loads one grain lighter. Now, we chrono this load.

 I've got a test set of .243AI loads with the 107 grain Sierrra MatchKing "flying pencils" over incrementally increasing charges of IMR4350. Funny how even a slight change in bullet weight can send you looking for a different propellant.

 Nice looking Blackhawk. I've got Pachmayrs on many of my S&Ws, but there's a school in favor of smooth walnut for the single action wheelguns. I've seen myself how the smooth walnut grip is designed to rotate in the hand to absorb heavy recoil. It works! Also looks traditional. You might want to pick up a set of OEM or aftermarket smooth grips to try it, especially with a .41MAG.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Oh yeah, the grips are definitely going. They feel alright but the look is just off.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Well I picked up a couple of cheap grips from Ajax while I was at the shop today. I will probably get something else later but now I am trying to decide between the black out look and the contrasting black/redwood look. I think I like the red wood grips but a nice set of black grips with some grain might be in the future. What do you guys think?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I like the red wood grips but a nice set of black grips with some grain might be in the future. What do you guys think?_

 

X2 on the "red wood".


----------



## sinus1982




----------



## Old Pa

.357RemMag Varmint: The 500 pieces of new Remington brass are visiting the "stations of the cross" to become more concentric and consistent. 500 Sierra .357 110 grain BlitKings are in the house with a couple pounds of Winchester 296 and some "legacy" CCI small pistol magnum primers. These BlitxKings are really something; I expect an echo when I yell across their big cavity. 2000fps is not out of the question with the twelve inch T/C tube, but that will depend on pressure signs. What I'm really hoping for is some two inch 75 yard groups. Which would be really something with iron sights and my old eyes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .243AI: 10 inch twist would not stabilize the 107 grain VLD MatchKings at any reasonable pressure. They weren't flying sideways at 100 yards like out of my 1-in-12" twist Browning A-Bolt, but their holes were definitely eliptical and falling in 8 to 10 inch groups for a rifle that will shoot 70 grain .243 MatchKings under 0.5". So I pulled the 107 grain bullets from the remaining test loads and went back and loaded some 100 grain .243 GameKing SPBTs over IMR4350. These worked just fine. Gives me something to use on game the size of antelope, deer, and caribou should the occasion arise.

 Didn't get much reloading work done over Thanksgiving as we had two guest yellow labrador deceivers in the house. One, Belle, is a six month old pup who is already housebroken but has little or no impulse control and knows that the world is her oyster. Still, a very good snugging girl already. I was saying to SWMBO this morning that while the jury is out as to whether Belle bonded with me, there is no question that I bonded with Belle.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

I managed to pick up a couple more revolvers over the Head-fi hiatus. I also got my .41 Magnum reloading toolhead set up and put together a couple hundred middlewight rounds with AA#9 powder under 210 grn Hornady XTP bullets. The .41 is a nice accurate load that seems to be a bit flatter than the .44 with 10% less recoil. A nice shooting round.

 I picked up another .41 Magnum for the collection. A S&W Mountain Gun Mod-57.






 And added a Mint+ Colt Diamondback to my small Colt Snake revolver collection.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also got my .41 Magnum reloading toolhead set up and put together a couple hundred middlewight rounds with AA#9 powder under 210 grn Hornady XTP bullets._

 

Forgive me for repeating myself, but one of the things that has kept me shooting big bore wheelguns has been quality hardcast lead bullets. With the correct powder choice, hard cast lead bullets are accurate, powerful, and have significantly less perceived recoil than do jacketed bullets of similar (and even lesser) weights. This is because of the greatly reduced effort it takes for hardcast lead bullets to pass through the revolver's forcing cone at the receiver end of the barrel and into the rifling lands. You have to experience it to believe it. 

 Furthermore, hard cast lead bullets for reloaders are often available from local casters through gun shops, at gun shows, or directly at a fraction of the cost of quality commercial jacketed pistol bullets. A good way to judge the quality of hard cast lead bullets is the uniform sharpness of their bases and if they are packed neatly in rows and stacks rather than loose in a box. Base edge uniform sharpness adds materially to accuracy.

 While I have found the effect not worth the while in .357RemMag class revolvers (they lead like crazy), .44RemMag hard cast bullet loads in front of 2400 powder are sweet. It's my guess you would also like them in the .41Mag. For the last decade fully 90% of my .44RemMag shooting has been done with stout loads behind hard cast lead bullets. BTW, another easy and effective revolver modification is to have the forcing cone lengthened. Worth every penny!


----------



## necropimp

put a sling i feel fits with my 1941 VKT M91 better (the leather civil guard marked M28 sling didn't feel right with a non-civil guard rifle so i got a canvas sling that is correct for all continuation war rifles)


----------



## Laptopia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I managed to pick up a couple more revolvers over the Head-fi hiatus. I also got my .41 Magnum reloading toolhead set up and put together a couple hundred middlewight rounds with AA#9 powder under 210 grn Hornady XTP bullets. The .41 is a nice accurate load that seems to be a bit flatter than the .44 with 10% less recoil. A nice shooting round.

 I picked up another .41 Magnum for the collection. A S&W Mountain Gun Mod-57.






 And added a Mint+ Colt Diamondback to my small Colt Snake revolver collection.




_

 

Very nice--where did you pick them up? I just received in the mail a very nice custom bullhide gunbelt from The Beltman. The belt should work well with my IWB Kramer Leatherworks Thompson Perfectionist.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

The beltman belts are excellent I have two myself. I also have a few Kramer holsters. I got both of the guns at the gun show a few weeks ago.

 Old Pa, I would like to load lead bullets but there are very few outdoor ranges in Northern Virginia and I can't shoot lead at the indoor range at which I am a member.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, I would like to load lead bullets but there are very few outdoor ranges in Northern Virginia and I can't shoot lead at the indoor range at which I am a member._

 

You might consider plated bullets which fall somewhere between hard cast lead and jacketed bullets in hardness and perceived recoil. Having your revolver forcing cones lengthened will help with any bullets. BTW Merry Christmas.


----------



## Socrates3000

Actually, guns are my first love. Sometimes, I just need to temper that side of myself with some nice Degas paintings and a little music, wine. Let's enjoy all life has to offer.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might consider plated bullets which fall somewhere between hard cast lead and jacketd bullets in hardness and perceived recoil. Having your revolver forcing cones lengthened will help with any bullets. BTW Merry Christmas._

 

I have some Berry's plated for .357 and .45 and was thinking of getting them for the .41. I was actually thinking of sending the Blackhawk .41 sent to Bowen for the basic issue package consisting of:

 No. RS01 ‘Standard Issue’ Applicable to all Ruger single-action revolvers, our most basic package contains the essentials to good shooting and dependability:

 · trigger tune; reassembly with Loc-tite to keep screws tight

 · BCA oversize locking base pin installed

 · forcing cone checked and recut, if necessary

 · BCA Rough Country adjustable rear sight installed

 I would like to go all out but I am thinking about getting a .44 Special for a true custom. 

 Have a great Christmas.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ No. RS01 ‘Standard Issue’ Applicable to all Ruger single-action revolvers, our most basic package contains the essentials to good shooting and dependability:

 · trigger tune; reassembly with Loc-tite to keep screws tight

 · BCA oversize locking base pin installed

 · forcing cone checked and recut, if necessary

 · BCA Rough Country adjustable rear sight installed
_

 

That sounds like a great package, improving on both sights and trigger. They'll probably check the timing when they install the oversize locking base pin and what else do you really need?


----------



## mrarroyo

Today I traded my un-fired Glock 26 for an used Glock 19 and 10 boxes of 20 rounds each in 7.62 by 39 for my SKS. In addition to the two 15 round each clips he gave me two 10 round clips. I will take a picture later and post it here. Both the 26 and the 19 were 2nd generation Glocks.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

This one has been stagnant for a while so I think I will show the new additions to my H&K collection. I picked up a P7M8 in box w/manual plus 8 mags and a USP45c with 4 mags for less than a grand. The P7 has some finish wear but mechanically it is awesome. Now my big decision is whether I send the P7 to Ford's refinishing for a hard chrome finish and some nice Nils wood grips or send it to Robars for the NP3 treatment. I think the Hard Chrome looks better but the NP3 is amazing for cleaning and upkeep.


----------



## braillediver

Good Deal on the H+K's. I have the P7 M8 and really like it.

 Try Lightning Arms for some Matt Del Fatti leather.


 Mitch


----------



## GAD

HK USP 45 is my favorite handgun - even above my many Sigs. 

 GAD


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GAD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HK USP 45 is my favorite handgun - even above my many Sigs. 

 GAD_

 

Its funny, I have owned hundreds of pistols in my life but I have never owned a Sig. I really want a 220 SAO so it will probably be my first.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good Deal on the H+K's. I have the P7 M8 and really like it.

 Try Lightning Arms for some Matt Del Fatti leather.


 Mitch_

 

 I agree that it is a great gun, that is why this one is joining the matching pair that are already sitting in my safe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Del Fatti has some fantastic leather for the P7, I had never seen any of his stuff, thanks.


----------



## marvin

I found a NIB Colt Gunsite CCO a couple of weeks ago at a gunshow and subsequently overpaid for it. It's pretty much my holy grail when it comes to stock 1911s, so I figured it was worth the premium.

 First couple trips didn't go too well though. Both magazines that came in the box had creases in the mag bodies where there shouldn't have been any. %&#$ follower hangups. Those magazines were replaced which led me to discover that last round hold open wasn't working because the slide release is to short to make contact with the follower. %&#$ Colt QC. Off to the parts bin again. It's been running well after those fixes, though I've only put a case (now $300 at Wal-Mart, 50% increase from Nov) through the gun so far. The stainless slide release kinda clashes with the rest of the blued/black anodized finish though.

 Only real change I'd make is to get rid of the match barrel. Really, it's designed to be a carry gun. The extra bits of accuracy from a match barrel is more than offset by the decreased reliability when running dirty. A gold bead front sight wouldn't be too bad either. And while I'm wishing for that, ~ $150/case of .45 ACP would be great.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 And while I'm wishing for that, ~ $150/case of .45 ACP would be great._

 

I think the only way you will get a case for $150 is by rolling your own.


----------



## roastpuff

*sigh* 

 I wished I lived in the US. It's so much harder to learn to shoot being a first-generation (second?) immigrant from Singapore to Vancouver, BC, in Canada, where gun laws are tighter than an IEM canal. 

 Nice guns, guys, and I hope to join the ranks of the shooters when I move out and can get my PAL (Possession and Acquisition License). 

 vpvinyl, is it hard to reload your own ammo? I'd probably be interested in that once I start shooting, if only because ammo is expensive.

 EDIT: And the P7M8 is nice. I've always had a soft spot for that particular HK, after I handled the Airsoft version. Love the grip safety - it's pretty much the ultimate carry gun in terms of easy usability.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roastpuff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the P7M8 is nice. I've always had a soft spot for that particular HK, after I handled the Airsoft version. Love the grip safety - it's pretty much the ultimate carry gun in terms of easy usability._

 

I've kept quiet and certainly don't want to poop on other's H&K preferences. However I was hot for a P7 about fifteen years ago and borrowed one for several weeks and hundreds of rounds of 9mm. I also rented a M13, but the less said about that pistol's ergometrics the better; can you say S&W 59? While there are features about the P7 that are nifty, I could not get it to trigger index reliably and it was nowhere near as accurate as my CZ99s and HP-35s. Since then I've known a number of P7 owners who have taken them to shooting schools. The universal report (and my own experience) is that P7s get real hot real quick while shooting, yes, Virginia, hotter than a pistol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and retain that heat longer than other common models of pistols. Not the best thing for prolonged shooting experiences. And I will always prefer shooting an FAL to a G3. P7 fans should think about a Kahr.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've kept quiet and certainly don't want to poop on other's H&K preferences. However I was hot for a P7 about fifteen years ago and borrowed one for several weeks and hundreds of rounds of 9mm. I also rented a M13, but the less said about that pistol's ergometrics the better; can you say S&W 59? While there are features about the P7 that are nifty, I could not get it to trigger index reliably and it was nowhere near as accurate as my CZ99s and HP-35s. Since then I've known a number of P7 owners who have taken them to shooting schools. The universal report (and my own experience) is that P7s get real hot real quick while shooting, yes, Virginia, hotter than a pistol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and retain that heat longer than other common models of pistols. Not the best thing for prolonged shooting experiences. And I will always prefer shooting an FAL to a G3. P7 fans should think about a Kahr._

 

Yep, no one would buy a P7 for its practicality. If I am going to class I am taking my Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Springfield TRP 1911s but I like the P7 as an easy carry gun once one gets used to the sensation of having to squeeze the grip and can find compfort in the shooting technique. Unlike several people in the old "if you could only own one gun" thread, an 8 shot 9mm that has to cool down after 100 rounds would never qualify for me, but neither would a Kahr. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do find the USP sans that LEM module trigger to be a very accurate gun, especially given its very high bore axis, but it is also more of a range gun. When I carry it is always the Ed Brown or a Glock 26/29 when I need small. If I feel like something different a S&W Mod 57 .41 Magnum revolver always seems to work.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I do find the USP sans that LEM module trigger to be a very accurate gun, especially given its very high bore axis, but it is also more of a range gun. When I carry it is always the Ed Brown or a Glock 26/29 when I need small. If I feel like something different a S&W Mod 57 .41 Magnum revolver always seems to work._

 

I have one of the first USP40s that came out... and I can't hit shiat with it. Don't know if it's cheap ammo or me. Thought about trying a .357 Sig barrel in it to see how that goes.

 Last time I fired it I was pointing right at center mass at the target and it dammed well went into the ceiling. I know I don't have a flinch problem. Not sure what to do. Never liked the trigger pull...


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Which trigger does your USP have? I never could get accurate results from the LEM trigger but I find single action in the V1 to be very accurate. I don't own any .40 caliber guns because I have never found it to be an inherently accurate round. 

 In response to Roastpuff, it is not difficult to reload as long as you pay attention. I can typically put out 250-300 rounds an hour when I really take my time and check powder drops and OAL regularly.


----------



## SuperNothing

I recently got into smallbore rifle shooting. Anyone else here do it?


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've kept quiet and certainly don't want to poop on other's H&K preferences. However I was hot for a P7 about fifteen years ago and borrowed one for several weeks and hundreds of rounds of 9mm. I also rented a M13, but the less said about that pistol's ergometrics the better; can you say S&W 59? While there are features about the P7 that are nifty, I could not get it to trigger index reliably and it was nowhere near as accurate as my CZ99s and HP-35s. Since then I've known a number of P7 owners who have taken them to shooting schools. The universal report (and my own experience) is that P7s get real hot real quick while shooting, yes, Virginia, hotter than a pistol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and retain that heat longer than other common models of pistols. Not the best thing for prolonged shooting experiences. And I will always prefer shooting an FAL to a G3. P7 fans should think about a Kahr._

 

I am sorry, I do not understand your reference to the S&W 59. Do you like it or not?

 I have had the opportunity to fire tha S&W 59 many times and it will shoot whatever I have fed it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeap, I love it. I also own a later model 5903 which has also been a great piece and for a while it was my carry piece. It also will fire whatever I have fed it. As you can see I am an S&W guy.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah i know... *-fi gets on some people's nerves...

 but i've noticed a fair number of us are gun owners

 for those who live in countries where the gunlaws are very restrictive airsoft or deactivated is fine if you mention it is

 and if guns and their owners scare you or you are an anti-gun type you shouldn't have clicked on the thread to begin with so please DO NOT post anti-gun comments in my thread

the whole collection

 and a few favorites of the collection (for those who don't click links)



















_

 

Very nice looking collection.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sorry, I do not understand your reference to the S&W 59. Do you like it or not?_

 

After making the Model 39 and the Model 52, both .35 caliber semiautomatics with good ergometrics, the Model 59 was kind of a blocky club. Grip diameter and grip angle are both bad; the thing just does not move and point. Sure, it will feed just about anything, which was a problem with other 9mm at the time. But it does not work well for me for modern pistolcraft.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuperNothing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recently got into smallbore rifle shooting. Anyone else here do it?_

 

I did smallbore for years. A lot of fun and challenging. What rifle are you starting out on?


----------



## jh4db536

my first









 the only revolver i ever liked
 S&W .357Magnum





 Browning 9mm





 headfi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 the only thing i want to add is a Mini14.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jh4db536* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my first









 the only revolver i ever liked
 S&W .357Magnum





 Browning 9mm





 headfi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 the only thing i want to add is a Mini14._

 

Nice! I've shot several revlovers (.22, .44, .357) and I just can't talk myself into liking them. I think it has to do with the ergos of the grips or something.

 I'm ordering my Sig 556 today and will probably order my Springer 1911 in a few weeks. Although the Sig has a lot of @ss I know I could sell it for almost no loss if I did not like it. I think it would be more fun to have and then take my time building my AR. I'll snag a nice LMT lower and piece the rest together at my own pace. Now the shop begins for a good ACOG


----------



## jmmtn4aj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jh4db536* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my first









 the only revolver i ever liked
 S&W .357Magnum





 Browning 9mm





 headfi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 the only thing i want to add is a Mini14._

 

Nice! Sub the revolver with a USP and that would be my pistol collection if they allowed guns here


----------



## SuperNothing

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did smallbore for years. A lot of fun and challenging. What rifle are you starting out on?_

 

Just been doing it through a club at school so I don't have my own rifle. But they have Anschutz rifles. I think the 1803 model but I am not sure.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuperNothing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just been doing it through a club at school so I don't have my own rifle. But they have Anschutz rifles. I think the 1803 model but I am not sure._

 

I'm likely to pickup the rifle below in next couple of weeks as an introduction. Anyone care to comment on it?

 CDNN.com


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuperNothing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just been doing it through a club at school so I don't have my own rifle. But they have Anschutz rifles. I think the 1803 model but I am not sure._

 

That is not in production any more and I have not had any experience with them. However, a quick look at a copy of the manual suggests that they are pretty good for a club rifle. I started out on a Remington, think it was a 513T and moved onto a Walther KK Match. My brother had a Anschutz 1907, great position rifle but it seemed light for outdoor prone.


----------



## SuperNothing

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is not in production any more and I have not had any experience with them. However, a quick look at a copy of the manual suggests that they are pretty good for a club rifle. I started out on a Remington, think it was a 513T and moved onto a Walther KK Match. My brother had a Anschutz 1907, great position rifle but it seemed light for outdoor prone._

 

Yea the Anschutz we have aren't on the website anymore. They bought the rifles awhile ago. They are nice if a tad bit heavy. I have only used them for indoor prone. I am not any good yet though. I am only shooting in the high 70's to low 80's. The problem is I just started doing it with a club at a school I am doing a year-abroad with in England and there is no club that I know of when I get back to the US/I don't have a rifle and I am not in a situation to have one right now considering I am going to be in Massachusetts for another year of school and then not positive where I will be after I graduate.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuperNothing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea the Anschutz we have aren't on the website anymore. They bought the rifles awhile ago. They are nice if a tad bit heavy. I have only used them for indoor prone. I am not any good yet though. I am only shooting in the high 70's to low 80's. The problem is I just started doing it with a club at a school I am doing a year-abroad with in England and there is no club that I know of when I get back to the US/I don't have a rifle and I am not in a situation to have one right now considering I am going to be in Massachusetts for another year of school and then not positive where I will be after I graduate._

 

For the most part, heavy is good (provided that the extra weight is put to good use like a heavier barrel). You're not supposed to be supporting the rifle to any large degree with your muscles. Let the sling and bone structure hold the weight. For prone, try shortening your sling for a higher position. It's not as desirable because it is less stable, but it will put more of the force of the rifle down through the bones as opposed to needing to be held up by the sling and muscles. Hopefully you've got a good coach at the club that can help you with position work and equipment.


----------



## Tomikans

wow.. Alot of people here like guns.. it kind of makes me scared.. 

 I don't own guns myself but my dad has a couple guns.. i should take pictures..


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tomikans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow.. Alot of people here like guns.. it kind of makes me scared.._

 

Guns are a big responsibility, but can be most involving and a lot of fun. Don't post any pictures of your dad's guns without his permission. Go through all the posts here and you will learn a bit.

 First two rules: don't touch a gun you find and tell a responsible adult about finding any gun.


----------



## Tomikans

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guns are a big responsibility, but can be most involving and a lot of fun. Don't post any pictures of your dad's guns without his permission. Go through all the posts here and you will learn a bit.

 First two rules: don't touch a gun you find and tell a responsible adult about finding any gun._

 

oh yeah, of course i know guns are a big responsibility. Just the power of holding and shooting a gun is immense. And i am an adult..haha


----------



## PaulE

I'm a noob in head-fi but have been into guns for quite some time. 

 Here are my guns. I'm more into sports shooting.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tomikans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And i am an adult..haha_

 

If you say so. In my five decades of shooting, I have observed children and adults of all ages at the range. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In any event, the rule is the same for both child and adult and stems from Rule #1 of safe gun handling: every gun is loaded until you have personally determined that it is not loaded. If you are not sufficiently knowledgeable about firearms to make this determination personally about a "discovered" firearm, then you should leave the firearms alone and notify a responsible adult (of any age 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## mrarroyo

Nice collection you have there PaulE.


----------



## jh4db536

i am the only one in this room professional enough that i know of that can carry this glock 40...

YouTube - DEA Agent Shoots Himself


----------



## PaulE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice collection you have there PaulE._

 

Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I currently have a 10/22 and Shotgun project ongoing but head-fi got in the way.


----------



## absolutlemur

HK USP 45

 Next on the list is probably an AR lower and a 10/22 for plinking. 






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PaulE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(tricked out 1911)_

 

Now that would be fun for the range. Second one down a Wilson Combat?


----------



## m00hk00h

Sorry to interrupt you guys.
 I am looking for someone who is living in the US and could send an EOTech holosight to Germany.
 These things are like 50% more expensive here then in the US and the strong Euro let's me take an import into consideration.
 Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a webshop that ships to Germany yet so I thought I aske one of you guys.
 I am interestes in the 551.A65/1, not necessarily Rev.F. I know that there is an export prohibition for the 553 but not for the 551.

 So if any of you is willing to help a German "gunfag" out please contact me via PM. Any help is appreciated!

 Thanks!

 m00h


----------



## archosman

*HARTFORD, Conn. — No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

 Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

 "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

 The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

 "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

 U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

 "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

 Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon.

 "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says.

 William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it.

 "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong."

 In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

 And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report.

 Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

 The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't.

 Or won't.

 "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago.

 Development of the carbine was driven by a need for a weapon that could be used in tight spaces but still had plenty of punch. Colt's answer was the 7 1/2-pound M4.

 In 1994, Colt was awarded a no-bid contract to make the weapons. Since then, it has sold more than 400,000 to the U.S. military.

 Along the way, Colt's hold has been threatened but not broken.

 In 1996, a Navy office improperly released Colt's M4 blueprints, giving nearly two dozen contractors a look at the carbine's inner workings. Colt was ready to sue the U.S. government for the breach. The company wanted between $50 million and $70 million in damages.

 Cooler heads prevailed. The Defense Department didn't want to lose its only source for the M4, and Colt didn't want to stop selling to its best customer.

 The result was an agreement that made Colt the sole player in the U.S. military carbine market. FNMI, an FN Herstal subsidiary in South Carolina, challenged the deal in federal court but lost.

 And since the Sept. 11 attacks, sales have skyrocketed.

 The Army, the carbine's heaviest user, is outfitting all its front-line combat units with M4s. The Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and special operations forces also carry M4s. So do U.S. law enforcement agencies and militaries in many NATO countries.

 More than $300 million has been spent on 221,000 of the carbines over the past two years alone. And the Defense Department is asking Congress to provide another $230 million for 136,000 more.

 A few years ago, the Army considered buying a brand-new carbine called the XM8. Designed by Heckler & Koch, the XM8 was touted as less expensive and more reliable than the M4. The project became bogged down by bureaucracy, however, and was canceled in 2005.

 Keane, the retired Army general, blames a bloated and risk-averse bureaucracy for the XM8's demise.

 "This is all about people not wanting to move out and do something different," Keane says. "Why are they afraid of the competition?"

 Within military circles there are M4 defectors. U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., was one of the carbine's first customers. But the elite commando units using the M4 soured on it; the rifle had to be cleaned too often and couldn't hold up under the heavy use by Army Green Berets and Navy SEALs.

 "Jamming can and will occur for a variety of reasons," concluded an internal report written seven years ago by special operations officials but never published. "Several types of jams, however, are 'catastrophic' jams; because one of our operators could die in a firefight while trying to clear them."

 Pointing to the report's unpublished status, Colt has disputed its findings. The M4 has been continually improved over the years, says Keys, the company's chief executive.

 Special Operations Command is replacing the M4s and several other rifles in its arsenal with FN Herstal's SCAR, which comes in two models: one shoots the same 5.56 mm round as the M4; the other a larger 7.62 mm bullet and costs several hundred dollars more. Both SCARs can accommodate different-size barrels allowing the weapons to be fired at multiple ranges.

 The SCARs are more accurate, more reliable and expected to last far longer than their predecessors, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Marc Boyd, a command spokesman.

 "SOCOM likes to be different," says Keys of Colt, using the acronym for the command. "They wanted something unique."

 With the SCAR not yet in full-scale production, Heckler & Koch's HK416 is being used by elite units like Delta Force, the secretive anti-terrorism unit. The command would not comment on the HK416 other than to say there are "a small number" of the carbines in its inventory.

 A key difference between the Colt carbine and the competitors is the way the rounds are fed through the rifle at lightning speed.

 The SCAR and HK416 use a gas piston system to cycle the bullets automatically. The M4 uses "gas impingement," a method that pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors. Without frequent and careful maintenance, they say, the M4 is prone to jamming and will wear out more quickly than its gas-piston competitors.

 "A gas piston system runs a little bit smoother and a lot cleaner," says Dale Bohner, a retired Air Force commando who now works for Heckler & Koch. "If the U.S. military opened up a competition for all manufacturers, I see the 416 being a major player in that."

 Outside of Special Operations Command, there seems to be no rush to replace the M4.

 Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, head of the Army office that buys M4s and other combat gear, traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan last summer to get feedback from soldiers on Colt's carbine.

 "I didn't hear one single negative comment," Brown says. "Now, I know I'm a general, and when I go up and talk to a private, they're going to say everything's OK, everything's fine. I said, 'No, no, son. I flew 14,000 miles out here to see you on the border of Afghanistan. The reason I did that was to find out what's happening."'

 Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., says the troops may not be aware of the alternatives. He wants the Pentagon to study the options and make a decision before Congress does.

 "Sen. Coburn has raised a good question: 'Do we have the best personal weapon?' And I don't know that we do," Sessions said. "We're not comfortable now. Let's give this a rigorous examination."*

FOXNews.com - Report: 'Fat' Government Gun Contractor Is Criticized for Exclusive War Deal - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FoxNews* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

 "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

 The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

 ...

 Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say._

 

Wonder if FN is making a political play at unseating Colt. They're the other high volume rifle supplier and significantly undercut Colt. They also have the most mature alternative to the M4/16. Though to be fair, Colt isn't too terrible. $1500 for a mil-spec M4 with KAC rails, BUIS, 7 mags, accessories and support agreements isn't bad at all.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FoxNews* 
_A few years ago, the Army considered buying a brand-new carbine called the XM8. Designed by Heckler & Koch, the XM8 was touted as less expensive and more reliable than the M4. The project became bogged down by bureaucracy, however, and was canceled in 2005._

 

Unsurprised that they didn't mention the other reasons why the XM-8 failed like incompatibility with current accessories (yay for sole source HK optics), poor ballistic performance, and the whole melting chassis issue... But hey, no use in mucking up a hit piece with facts.


----------



## PaulE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *absolutlemur* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that would be fun for the range. Second one down a Wilson Combat?_

 

It's a customized Norinco Commander. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here are "Before and After" pics.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unsurprised that they didn't mention the other reasons why the XM-8 failed like incompatibility with current accessories (yay for sole source HK optics), poor ballistic performance, and the whole melting chassis issue... But hey, no use in mucking up a hit piece with facts._

 

of course poor ballistic performance... it's still using that glorified .22

 to be perfectly honest the best rifle for a desert climate was designed over 60 years ago


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_of course poor ballistic performance... it's still using that glorified .22

 to be perfectly honest the best rifle for a desert climate was designed over 60 years ago_

 

308?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_308? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He's gotta mean the Rasheed . . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorta a French/Egyptian SKS crossed with a heavy shovel.


----------



## necropimp

no i mean Kalashnikov's freakishly reliable design...

 oh and the Rashid... is actually a Swedish designed semi-auto that has no ties to the sks


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh and the Rashid... is actually a Swedish designed semi-auto that has no ties to the sks_

 

You must be thinking about something else. Check out pp 73-75 of Timothy J. Mullin's Testing the War Weapons (Paladin Press, 1997 ISBN 0-87364-943-5) describing the Rasheed and where the linkage to the SKS is clearly both cartridge (7.62x39) and exposure as the Egyptians went from the West to the Russians in the late 1950s. Bad sights, bad trigger, heavy, and with bad ergometrics. Truly a club.


----------



## guyx1992

My favorite gun is the M1 Carabine / Garand. 
 I'm gonna get a M4 / M16 / other gun in about 3 years


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You must be thinking about something else. Check out pp 73-75 of Timothy J. Mullin's Testing the War Weapons (Paladin Press, 1997 ISBN 0-87364-943-5) describing the Rasheed and where the linkage to the SKS is clearly both cartridge (7.62x39) and exposure as the Egyptians went from the West to the Russians in the late 1950s. Bad sights, bad trigger, heavy, and with bad ergometrics. Truly a club._

 

The Rasheed was designed by the Swedish engineer Erik Eklund, who based it on his previous Hakim Rifle (8 x 57 mm Mauser cartridge), which was itself a slightly modified version of the Swedish AG-42 Ljungman rifle (6.5 x 55 mm Swedish cartridge).

 so other than the round it's a Ljungman/Hakim action with a proper charging handle remaove the bayonet and it resembles a Gewehr 43 more than an SKS

 i've seen one up close (a nice treat as only ~8000 were ever made) and it's internals are completely different from an SKS


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Rasheed was designed by the Swedish engineer Erik Eklund, who based it on his previous Hakim Rifle (8 x 57 mm Mauser cartridge), which was itself a slightly modified version of the Swedish AG-42 Ljungman rifle (6.5 x 55 mm Swedish cartridge).

 so other than the round it's a Ljungman/Hakim action with a proper charging handle remaove the bayonet and it resembles a Gewehr 43 more than an SKS

 i've seen one up close (a nice treat as only ~8000 were ever made) and it's internals are completely different from an SKS_

 

I've shot the hakim before. Do not like it too much, it's better off as a club and that bloody dust cover and bolt is liable to take a piece of your thumb with it. Forget about M1 thumb. The FN49 chambered in 8mm Mauser, that is a nice 8mm semi auto.


----------



## necropimp

never said it was a wonderful design... Egypt would have been better off with an SKS variant


----------



## absolutlemur

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PaulE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a customized Norinco Commander. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here are "Before and After" pics._

 

Ah, either way, looks nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd really like to get a 1911, but in MA, the selection is limited :\


----------



## bcurko

I am loving this thread. The guns and rifles that some of the members are posting in this thread are stunning. I don't have a rifle of my own but i intend on getting a 308 and a .22 for spot shooting...

 I have to wait till 2011 before i can legally purchase a rifle and ammo . Dam australian laws 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got my rifle permit sitting by my side. I do sport shooting at my school with the 22's mainly Also open eyepiece sights not like the proper commando ones which are perfecto and require no skill... 
 My best score >< 90/100




 Keep it up guys
 PS Do you have any suggestions on what ear muffs and gloves i should get for my sport shooting. I'm currently lying down while shooting and using a strap to support the rifles but the rifle is slipping in the old school gloves.... Ideas?


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bcurko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am loving this thread. The guns and rifles that some of the members are posting in this thread are stunning. I don't have a rifle of my own but i intend on getting a 308 and a .22 for spot shooting...

 I have to wait till 2011 before i can legally purchase a rifle and ammo . Dam australian laws 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got my rifle permit sitting by my side. I do sport shooting at my school with the 22's mainly Also open eyepiece sights not like the proper commando ones which are perfecto and require no skill... 
 My best score >< 90/100




 Keep it up guys
 PS Do you have any suggestions on what ear muffs and gloves i should get for my sport shooting. I'm currently lying down while shooting and using a strap to support the rifles but the rifle is slipping in the old school gloves.... Ideas?_

 

Use a sling and cuff and hopefully a rifle with a hand stop. If you have the hand stop and a sling, you shouldn't really need to worry about slipping with the gloves. The gloves I started with were just there for padding, they did not have any rubber to prevent slippage. It's about getting your bones and equipment to support the rifle. If you can relax your muscles, clothes your eyes, take a few breaths, and keep the rifle on target then you've got yourself a good position. Also, get some US NRA targets, they'll help boost your ego compared to the international targets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## archosman




----------



## guyx1992

On Friday I went with my dad to the shooting range. 
 It was my first time shooting (and holding) a gun :]
 It was a Sig Sauer pistol. Cool gun :]


----------



## leftnose

Just bought myself a new target shotgun. It's still en route to my FFL and should be there tomorrow. Can't wait!

 Dealer pics:


----------



## Budgie

Beautiful!


----------



## anubis404

Heres a little something I did while at a range with a Marlin .22LR.




 I don't own any guns (I'm only 14), and I only get the chance to shoot once or twice a year. Having VERY anti-gun parents, that is pretty much all I can do. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait another four years 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anubis404* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't own any guns (I'm only 14), and I only get the chance to shoot once or twice a year. Having VERY anti-gun parents, that is pretty much all I can do. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait another four years 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

Good for you. Have you taken Hunter Safety yet? Check with you high school to see where it's offered. Not only will you get it out of the way for hunting, but it will get you some contacts to get into smallbore and maybe some gallery pistol (both with .22LR). Many of these programs have loaner guns you can use. You can stress the structured safety of the programs to your parents and after a couple of years of safe participation and seeing how much it means to you, maybe their attitudes about your owning guns will change. One step at a time.


----------



## anubis404

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good for you. Have you taken Hunter Safety yet? Check with you high school to see where it's offered. Not only will you get it out of the way for hunting, but it will get you some contacts to get into smallbore and maybe some gallery pistol (both with .22LR). Many of these programs have loaner guns you can use. You can stress the structured safety of the programs to your parents and after a couple of years of safe participation and seeing how much it means to you, maybe their attitudes about your owning guns will change. One step at a time._

 

I have only really taken a basic 20 min instruction course at the range I was firing. I would really love to take more gun safety courses and get out and shoot more, but my parents don't want me even near the things. They're actually fine with guns in the country and rural areas, however they pretty much think there should be no guns in a city. I live fairly close (within biking distance) to a range, but I can't even convince them to take me there. I guess if I convince them to let me do anything, it will have to be one step at a time.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anubis404* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess if I convince them to let me do anything, it will have to be one step at a time._

 

Yup, but that's okay. If you really want to shoot (and I know all about that) then try the structured and supervised path of Hunter Safety and then Smallbore. Your parents will feel better about the structure and supervision, you will get safety beaten into you until it's second nature, and you will get to shoot a lot.


----------



## Born2bwire

Heh, didn't think I had any shooting pictures but I found these on my computer the other day.











 EDIT: Looks like bbzzdd doesn't like me linking you guys to them.


----------



## Old Pa

Well the scopes are mounted, the guns are zeroed, the ammunition is loaded and chronoed, my downstairs office looks like the quartermaster's back room, and the spaniels look worried. Next Wednesday is the departure date for a late added ten day prairie poodle safari to NoDak and SoDak. The girls will not be going along, but after a long hard winter in the Northwoods, Spring has sprung and it's time to get out. 

 The .357RemMag 110 grain Blitz loads in my old Thompson/Center Contender with its new twelve inch barrel chronoed out at MV 2026FPS and with iron sights (and my old eyes) group on a 3x5 card out past 75 yards. The .22-250Rem Striker pistol carries on the good work out past 300 yards. .223Rem loads flying 50 grain BlitzKings in my left-handed G3 Tikka "walking around rifle" and the JP/AR with 24"Wilson heavy barrel carry the word out to 400 yards at 3460FPS. The left-handed Remington 700VS in .22-250 spits its message in 55 grain BlitzKings at @ 3750 out to past 500 yards. And the new custom left-handed Remington 700VS in .243AI shoots bugholes beyond that with 70 grain BlitzKings at MV 3815FPS. All are clean and cased. Ammunition, optics, gear, clothing, coolers, VarmintMaster bench for all circumstances, real and imagined are laid out for inspection, contemplation, and packing. Truly an awesome sight for the gun nuts amongst us.

 But mostly it's that free roamin' life on the high prairie that's calling to me. Out in counties with the lowest population densities (that's both number of people and cerebral affectation of the electorate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) in the lower 48, the sky is huge, the critters run free and everything seems more vivid and real than in town. Time to saddle up.

 Edit: BTE, B2BW, aren't those targets kinda close for Garand work?


----------



## mrarroyo

Old Pa, enjoy your time out and I hope you have a great time.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, enjoy your time out and I hope you have a great time._

 

Thanks, Miguel. A great time is virtually guaranteed both where I'm going and with the folks I'll be with.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: BTE, B2BW, aren't those targets kinda close for Garand work? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Yeah they are, but I would use 300/600 yard simulated targets to make up for the difference. That range actually did go back 300 yards, but it was too far of a drive for me to get out to the range early enough to use it since it effectively shut down the whole range (trap/skeet, 75 yard range, 100 yard range) for you to shoot at 300 yards.

 Besides, that M1 was a bit of a scatter shot. It was a Greek standard grade CMP. The stock was loose, the op rod needed to be hammered out so that it wouldn't scrape, and the latch pin would walk out of position as I fired. Still, at a 100 yards I could put all 8 in the black at rapid fire, about all I expected of it.


----------



## MAJ_T_Baggin

Pedersoli 2nd Model Brown Bess .75 Cal smoothbore musket











 1851 Colt Navy .36 caliber cap and ball revolver and a Remington New Army .45 Colt revolver


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That range actually did go back 300 yards, but it was too far of a drive for me to get out to the range early enough to use it since it effectively shut down the whole range (trap/skeet, 75 yard range, 100 yard range) for you to shoot at 300 yards._

 

I've shot on ranges like that. The Harris, MN range (the only official 1000 yard range in the state) is like that; you have to shut down progressively more ranges to shoot at 600 and then 1000 yards.

 Couldn't you tell them to just leave the in between ranges open and you would be REAL careful shooting at 300?


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've shot on ranges like that. The Harris, MN range (the only official 1000 yard range in the state) is like that; you have to shut down progressively more ranges to shoot at 600 and then 1000 yards.

 Couldn't you tell them to just leave the in between ranges open and you would be REAL careful shooting at 300? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






_

 

I could but I figure I'd be just a little more than a tad disconcerted by the sound of the shot coming overhead from the trap range.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I could but I figure I'd be just a little more than a tad disconcerted by the sound of the shot coming overhead from the trap range._

 

High power shooters have got to learn to deal with pressure.


----------



## anubis404

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bcurko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am loving this thread. The guns and rifles that some of the members are posting in this thread are stunning. I don't have a rifle of my own but i intend on getting a 308 and a .22 for spot shooting...

 I have to wait till 2011 before i can legally purchase a rifle and ammo . Dam australian laws 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got my rifle permit sitting by my side. I do sport shooting at my school with the 22's mainly Also open eyepiece sights not like the proper commando ones which are perfecto and require no skill... 
 My best score >< 90/100




 Keep it up guys
 PS Do you have any suggestions on what ear muffs and gloves i should get for my sport shooting. I'm currently lying down while shooting and using a strap to support the rifles but the rifle is slipping in the old school gloves.... Ideas?_

 

Wow, thats some good shooting.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_High power shooters have got to learn to deal with pressure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Pressure I can deal with. Sudden introduction of lead poisoning is something I'm still struggling with.


----------



## malldian

Looking to purchase my first handgun - mainly for sport (shooting in my back yard). What should I be looking for?


----------



## leftnose

Most towns have ordinances against discharging firearms within city limits. Also, be sure it's safe to shoot in your backyard. A bullet from a handgun will easily travel a mile before falling to the ground.

 Two suggestions if you want to buy new.

 S&W 10-shot Model 617 in .22
 S&W Model 686. This is .357 but shoot some .38 wadcutters


----------



## malldian

I live on a forty acre farm - with all farm land around - I would also set up some kind of range to shoot at to prevent anything like that. We shoot my dad's rifles and fireworks off pretty regularly. Thanks for the advice, I will look into that.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *malldian* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking to purchase my first handgun - mainly for sport (shooting in my back yard). What should I be looking for?_

 

As had been said, most cities, towns and townships ban the discharge of firearms within their boundaries and many classify airguns as firearms for the purposes of their ordinances. If you can shoot legally where you live, I would suggest a good quality .22LR semiautomatic pistol with at least 6 inches of barrel. You can practice all your skills, ammo is cheap (and not reloadable) and the noise is low if you have any neighbors who might be alramed. In any case, such a .22LR is one of your basic five sporting firearms and you will keep it forever. Mine is an old Belgian Browning Challenger.


----------



## Radagast

But thats nothing compared to my baby


----------



## ronin74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bcurko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS Do you have any suggestions on what ear muffs and gloves i should get for my sport shooting. I'm currently lying down while shooting and using a strap to support the rifles but the rifle is slipping in the old school gloves.... Ideas?_

 

Good shooting keep it up! I shot competitive 4-position, small bore in high school and some college. Trying to pick it up again.

 Equipment wise I picked up a Kurt Thune glove and an AHG Anshutz jacket from Neal Johnson. I think he is also the outfitter for the US Olympic Shooting team.


----------



## dkjohnso

I've been pretty satisfied with my last audio upgrades, and am content with my new road bike, so I decided to drop some money on hobby #3. First time I've seen a PPS in grey, so I had to get it.


----------



## ronin74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dkjohnso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been pretty satisfied with my last audio upgrades, and am content with my new road bike, so I decided to drop some money on hobby #3. _

 

Ditto for my hobby #5.




 FWB P-70 (Feinwerkbau)


----------



## guyx1992

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Radagast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 But thats nothing compared to my baby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Pashut Shiryoner? ah? 
 IDF KICKS ASS


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ronin74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ditto for my hobby #5.




 FWB P-70 (Feinwerkbau)_

 

Nothing like a precision air rifle/pistol to tell you the truth.


----------



## number1sixerfan

I'm thinking of getting into the hobby. My only concern is that I live in an apartment. Do most complexes have rules against guns? 

 I'm looking to collect handguns as well as keeping one as a means of home protection. What all do I have to do to own my first? Meanwhile, I'll look up the local gun club.


----------



## leftnose

Others can give you guidance on handguns better than I as my focus is on shotguns. 

 However, if you live in an apartment complex, I would certainly only look at the smallest calibers for a home defense gun. I would be most worried about a bullet going through a wall and hurting someone in an adjacent room.


----------



## Karlos

Life for the firearms fan is far from easy in the UK, but I have three rifles 

 Semi custom PSS 700 in .223 with a Jewel trigger and jeweled bold with a Badger Ordinance bolt knob. Shoots sub MOA. It's going in an AICS soon. 







 I also have a .308 Sako 75 S/S varmint with a Holland brake on the end, 

 A .22lr Model 64 

 A .357 LBR

 And a Browning Cynergy 12 bore


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Others can give you guidance on handguns better than I as my focus is on shotguns. 

 However, if you live in an apartment complex, I would certainly only look at the smallest calibers for a home defense gun. I would be most worried about a bullet going through a wall and hurting someone in an adjacent room._

 

That is a very large concern of mine. Aren't certain bullets that can be used that will not likely penetrate the walls?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is a very large concern of mine. Aren't certain bullets that can be used that will not likely penetrate the walls?_

 

State law and local ordinances govern your right to purchase and possess firearms; private apartment complexes should have nothing to do with it. You need at least a .35 caliber handgun (.38Spl/.357Mag/9mm) with modern jacketed hollowpoint ammunition (115gr-140gr bullet weight) and good shot placement to effectively stop a determined adversary. Put all your rounds center mass of your adversary and you won't have to worry about them going through common walls.

 It is my usual advice to folks that if they are unable or unwilling to defend themselves with their hands/feet/teeth and anything just laying around that they should not go to a firearm for self defense. The goblin will just take it away and use it on you. See if you can find a copy of Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Self Defense" at a local gunstore, read it, get your mind right, and see all you can do for your own security before you arm yourself further. Think about a nonlethal weapon (pepper spray/CN gas/club); you will need to have this option even if you have a firearm for situations which do not warrant lethal force.

 All that said, quality semiautomatic .22LR rifle and/or pistol makes dandy first firearms. You can practice and master all your skills with inexspensive ammunition with firearms you will not outgrow and, in a pinch, they will serve to deter and even stop a dangerous adversary. Just keep shooting and don't stop to admire your work.


----------



## Ech0

Sig Sauer P239 (.40 S&W) for home protection.

 S&W .357 Mag for fun. Nice, that you can use .38 Special rounds in it. 

 An old Marlin lever action 30cal I used for deer hunting a long time ago (first gun).


----------



## ronin74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing like a precision air rifle/pistol to tell you the truth. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Pa,
 My 10-meter hallway quickly converts into my in-door .177 off-hand range. No ordinances governing in-home pellet discharge, also no excuses.
 I'm not (yet) worthy of an Anschutz 2013:





 A contributing member of USA Shooting - for the US Olympic Shooting Team.


----------



## ronnielee54

Remington 300 Savage, SW Model 27 357 mag, Colt Anaconda (8-inch barrel) 44 mag, Ruger P85 9mm, and Automag 22 mag


----------



## Old Pa

June wound up being my second trip to NoDak/SoDak. In May, I started in NoDak around the east side of TRNP and worked down to Wall, SD before heading home. Winds were blowing a steady 20-30MPH with gusts to 40MPH and 50MPH, so ethics held shots down to under 250 yards (holding 4 minutes into the wind at 100 yards with .223). It also became clear that the poodles aren't really up that early in the year. But scouting was done, zeroes were confirmed, new loads were checked, beer was drunk, rare grass fed beef was consumed, etc.

 The 110 .357RemMag load (chronoing 2025FPS muzzle out of 12" T/C Contender with iron sights) took poodles out to (lazed) 136 yards and laid them out as if they had been dressed. Very impressive. Also fun.

 Our problems with our "hosts" in SoDak developed as they insisted on putting us repeatedly on the same small and shot-out towns. In May, we shot only two days. In June, we shot one day and then left after the guy was rude to Mike when Mike stopped by to tell him one of his bulls had a banged up leg. By then, my development of places we could shoot without paying had taken us out of our "host's" clutches.

 Last day shooting in SoDak was on BLM land north of Sturgis. We got put on a town and my section had targets out past 800 yards. Plenty of chance to try out the new .243AI and compare it to the .22-250; it adds about 200 effective yards and shoots as well as the old boy can hold. Some vary satisfying DRT thumps out past 700 yards. Good to have both rifles, however, as both rifles heat up quickly. The .223Rem still remains, IMHO, the best general purpose poodle rifles and you can do a lot worse in .223Rem than a Tikka G3, Rem 700, or accurate heavy barrel AR.
  Quote:


 My 10-meter hallway quickly converts into my in-door .177 off-hand range. No ordinances governing in-home pellet discharge, also no excuses. 
 

My ten meter fault line is off the arm to the loveseat (especially when there are spaniels on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) in the corner of my office with trap in the reloading room through the "quartermaster's room". I have an RWS Diana Model 75 (left handed) and a RWS 6M to keep me humble and honest. They do.


----------



## ronin74

*Supreme Court upholds gun ownership right*

 Well it looks like the good-guys finally won one.

 Not from my cold dead hands!




 Charlton Heston may you RIP. 

 "Long live the Freedom Fighters!" - Muad'Dib -


----------



## oicdn

I've started looking at guns lately, as my roomy is HEAVILY into guns. He has a PLETHORA of handguns, and the one that interests me most is his COP Pepperbox:






 It's the one he usually carries around (has a concealed weapon permit) and is pretty sharp looking. The difference between his and the one pictured is his has better looking wood for his grip.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synaesthetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The fact that he uses that as a carry piece should worry you. Jeez, anything smaller than .380 ACP is not an acceptable defensive round.
_

 

That's a .357.


----------



## Naga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It remains very unsettling that five highly educated, intelligent jurists sitting on our highest court, and having given their oath to uphold the Constitution, "find" that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and offer a "balancing" test unlike anything used for any other Constitutional right or protection to sidestep the majority's decision in the first gun rights case to reach the Court in 70 years. We did not win this one by much and 5-4 is way too close for an primary individual liberty and protection the Founders put second only to freedom of religion and speech. More like we just dodged a bullet._

 

My sentiments are similar. The trend against the 2nd may well continue.


----------



## synaesthetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a .357._

 

lolwut...

 Crazy, the photo makes it look like a .32...

 I wonder if it can be modded to fire all four barrels at once. >.>


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is a very large concern of mine. Aren't certain bullets that can be used that will not likely penetrate the walls?_

 

Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It remains very unsettling that five highly educated, intelligent jurists sitting on our highest court, and having given their oath to uphold the Constitution, "find" that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and offer a "balancing" test unlike anything used for any other Constitutional right or protection to sidestep the majority's decision in the first gun rights case to reach the Court in 70 years. We did not win this one by much and 5-4 is way too close for an primary individual liberty and protection the Founders put second only to freedom of religion and speech. More like we just dodged a bullet._

 

A win is a win. The Supreme Court rarely overturns itself, so this decision should stand for many years. And it'll take several years for a different case to snake through the appellate level, as well. We'll definitely have a different President by then, possibly a new Justice or two.


----------



## synaesthetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home._

 

My FNP9 stays loaded with hollowpoints when I'm at home, sitting within fairly easy access--no kids, only cats, who don't have opposable thumbs. =P When I go play with it at the range it loses the hollowpoints in favor of cheap 9mm FMJ which is good for putting holes in paper men. =P

 So far it's never discharged a hollowpoint yet, and I hope that this gun's barrel burns out being used as a hole punch before it fires one. I've had a few crazy moments in my complex--the neighbors can get a little rowdy when they're drunk, but nothing a threat to call the cops and a wiggled cell phone hasn't solved.

 Really though, anyone looking for a good, reliable, fairly accurate SA/DA autopistol, the FNP9 is a really nice gun at a GREAT price. It's almost too easy to find them for under $400 and with a little digging you can find them for $300. FN Herstal makes good stuff.


----------



## oicdn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synaesthetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lolwut...

 Crazy, the photo makes it look like a .32...

 I wonder if it can be modded to fire all four barrels at once. >.>_

 

 Didn't the OG pepperboxes back in the day shoot all 4(or more!) at once? Kinda like being a hand-shotgun with a large spray area, lol.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synaesthetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far it's never discharged a hollowpoint yet, and I hope that this gun's barrel burns out being used as a hole punch before it fires one._

 

Well, I'm not sure that's so smart (all due respect). I would suggest shooting a few boxes of those hollowpoints through the gun at the range to make sure it is reliable with them. Nothing would be worse than an ammunition caused malfunction when you need the gun the most.


----------



## ronin74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home._

 

My first 6 are Glaser Safety Slugs, the remaining 9 are FMJ. IIRC hollowpoints are illegal in Kalifornia.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A win is a win. The Supreme Court rarely overturns itself, so this decision should stand for many years. And it'll take several years for a different case to snake through the appellate level, as well. We'll definitely have a different President by then, possibly a new Justice or two._

 

2X. The Second Amendment has been beaten and bloodied for the past 25 years, it's great to see the tide finally shifting.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Well, I went to the gun range yesterday with my girlfriend. It was a ton of fun. The first gun we should was a small ruger that had no recoil at all. It was a good intro, but a bit boring. 

 Then we tried a S&W .38 special and it had a little too much recoil, but seemed very powerful. It seems like it would not be smart to use this gun for personal protection because it seemed less accurate. But that is probably because it was our first time target shooting because on my second round of firing it, my aiming was a lot better.

 It was so fun that I want to go back next week. lol The only thing is that it was pretty expensive because we had to rent the gun, buy the ammo, rent the lane, and buy the target sheets. I may have to find somewhere cheaper or get my own gun/ammo. The gun rental was only $6, but the actual ammo was around 3-4 times that depending on the gun.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't the OG pepperboxes back in the day shoot all 4(or more!) at once? Kinda like being a hand-shotgun with a large spray area, lol._

 

No, as they had only one lock system and the individual barrels were rotated under the hammer one at a time. There were "duckbill" pistols with several splayed barrels under the same lock mechanism so that they fired as one that were used for "crew control" aboard sailing ships. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home._

 

Actually, it depends upon the hollowpoint as with some designs the cavity fills with clothing or plaster and the bullet becomes. essentially, a FMJ penetrator. New designs with cut jackets seem better. YMMV.
  Quote:


 A win is a win. The Supreme Court rarely overturns itself, so this decision should stand for many years. And it'll take several years for a different case to snake through the appellate level, as well. We'll definitely have a different President by then, possibly a new Justice or two. 
 

Heller is a win in recognizing the Second Amendment provides an individual right and I do not mean to denigrate that, but, mark my words, the invitation to a balancing test for individual rights under (and only under) the Second Amendment that the minority makes will come back to haunt us. That is a legal opinion.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synaesthetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My FNP9 stays loaded with hollowpoints when I'm at home, sitting within fairly easy access--no kids, only cats, who don't have opposable thumbs. =P When I go play with it at the range it loses the hollowpoints in favor of cheap 9mm FMJ which is good for putting holes in paper men. =P_

 

I understand the cost argument, especially these days, of shooting cheaper FMJ ammo at the range, but I don't do it for three reasons. It does not get you rotating your ammunition that is in the pistol and that you will be relying upon. Ammo stability is pretty good, but it is subject to penetrating firearms lubricants and other storage hazards. I first shoot the bullets that were in the gun at the range to see how things would have gone had I needed the use in extremus; both for ammunition reliability and function (in a semi-auto) and for shot placement. Different ammunition in the same caliber will not have the same point of impact because of bullet weight, bullet design, and powder/primer charge. Since my bottom line accuracy requirement is at least headshot accuracy at twenty yards under no pressure (4 inch group at point of aim), I need to know where the working ammo is going to impact. BTW, at my concealed carry recertification course last week, I was high gun with 244 out of 250 possible. Finally, if you train in the most realistic manner possible, including the same ammo, you may have greater assurance that your actual results will resemble your training results. Shoot the same ammo you plan to use defensively.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

I would hate to be holding onto that thing when it goes off. Modern high performance .35 caliber pistols have quite sharp reports and twisting recoils; I much prefer light load .44RemMag with three times the muzzle energy. How is it for a tactical reload? Since the stats are to plan for multiple aggressive attackers in a lethal force scenario, I guess you might want to hit what you are aiming at. How's the trigger pull? Looks like it has to draw a striker for each barrel. Which barrel are the sights set for? Looks a little like "spray and pray" to anyone from the shot placement school. Firepower is bullets striking center mass.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ronin74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My first 6 are Glaser Safety Slugs, the remaining 9 are FMJ. IIRC hollowpoints are illegal in Kalifornia._

 

I got away from the Glasers back in the early 80s; they were very expensive, had a different point of impact than my usual ammunition, were useless against vehicles or light cover, and had problematic functioning in some semi-auto pistols due to the light bullet weight. I could never afford enough of them (at least 250 rounds) to train adequately with and ascertain reliable function. You may want to re-think this.


----------



## mrarroyo

Any of you uses or has used Mag Safe? Mag Safe Ammo - Pre-Fragmented Saftey Ammunition Handcrafted In The USA


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of you uses or has used Mag Safe?_

 

No, but it looks like a refinement of the Glaser safety load; larger lead birdshot filling a bullet jacket and held in place with a plastic plug and I have several decades of experience with those. Forensic pathologists I have known refer to the wound track left in human flesh by the Glaser "bullet" as "inoperable". BTW, Glasers were introduced to make some inadequate pistol calibers (.25ACP, .32ACP, .32H&R. etc) "seem" more effective. Mag Safe work about the same as Glasers for reducing ricochets and shoot-throughs, but should also have the same problems in terms of physics. The advertised Mag Safe bullet weights are half (or less) of an appropriate jacketed hollowpoint in each caliber. Mag Safe loads have much higher claimed velocities than conventional JHP loads in each caliber. They have much lower sectional densities. They are about ten times more expensive. So:
They will shoot to a different point of aim than conventional JHP ammunition in any given pistol (perhaps beyond sight adjustment)
Their velocities will be more affected by the available barrel length than conventional JHP ammunition in the caliber
They will recoil differently than conventional ammunition, which may affect reliable funtion in semi-automatic firearms (I've seen pistols completely refuse to load or feed Glasers)
They will lose velocity more rapidly in flight than conventional JHP of the caliber (gives them a trajectory of a lob wedge)
Their penetration against light cover or vehicles will be markedly less than conventional JHP ammunition of the caliber
They will probably have higher flash and report than conventional JHP loads in the caliber
They will be too costly for effective regular practice
I guess I would view them also as a specialty ammunition for particular narrow "up close" purposes (ie. assassination) rather than an effective general purpose self defense load.


----------



## ronin74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got away from the Glasers back in the early 80s; they were very expensive, had a different point of impact than my usual ammunition, were useless against vehicles or light cover, and had problematic functioning in some semi-auto pistols due to the light bullet weight. I could never afford enough of them (at least 250 rounds) to train adequately with and ascertain reliable function. You may want to re-think this._

 

Old Pa,

 Thank you for the advice, but I think the Glasers will do just fine for it's intended purpose; close quarters, confined space, home protection. No ricochets, no strays.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ronin74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for the advice, but I think the Glasers will do just fine for it's intended purpose; close quarters, confined space, home protection. No ricochets, no strays._

 

To each his own. I, myself, have never experienced or thought I would have quite that much control over the circumstances of a self defense situation involving lethal force. BTW, since lethal force exercises are these days most commonly accompanied by later criminal and/or civil prosecutions, even if successful in the self defense encounter, I would not like to explain to a civil jury in a wrongful death action my particular choice of fragmenting projectile ammunition before the bereaved widow(s), kiddies, and other surviving relations. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But what do I know?


----------



## number1sixerfan

Going back to the range tomorrow. Going to try out a glock .40 and 9mm. Revolvers last time, pistols this time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I really enjoyed watching myself get even incrementally better while practicing. This may well turn into a hobby.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, but it looks like a refinement of the Glaser safety load; larger lead birdshot filling a bullet jacket and held in place with a plastic plug and I have several decades of experience with those. Forensic pathologists I have known refer to the wound track left in human flesh by the Glaser "bullet" as "inoperable". BTW, Glasers were introduced to make some inadequate pistol calibers (.25ACP, .32ACP, .32H&R. etc) "seem" more effective. Mag Safe work about the same as Glasers for reducing ricochets and shoot-throughs, but should also have the same problems in terms of physics. The advertised Mag Safe bullet weights are half (or less) of an appropriate jacketed hollowpoint in each caliber. Mag Safe loads have much higher claimed velocities than conventional JHP loads in each caliber. They have much lower sectional densities. They are about ten times more expensive. So:
They will shoot to a different point of aim than conventional JHP ammunition in any given pistol (perhaps beyond sight adjustment)
Their velocities will be more affected by the available barrel length than conventional JHP ammunition in the caliber
They will recoil differently than conventional ammunition, which may affect reliable funtion in semi-automatic firearms (I've seen pistols completely refuse to load or feed Glasers)
They will lose velocity more rapidly in flight than conventional JHP of the caliber (gives them a trajectory of a lob wedge)
Their penetration against light cover or vehicles will be markedly less than conventional JHP ammunition of the caliber
They will probably have higher flash and report than conventional JHP loads in the caliber
They will be too costly for effective regular practice
I guess I would view them also as a specialty ammunition for particular narrow "up close" purposes (ie. assassination) rather than an effective general purpose self defense load._

 

+1, glasers and MagSafes have been shown to be unable to achieve the depths in ballistic gelatin to pass the FBI's test. If you read Fackler, et al, the 2 ways to take someone down are:

 1) Blood Loss - make the hole big but unless you hit an artery may take some time during which they can kill you.

 2) CNS hit - Fastest way to bring them down and the reason for the FBI's recommendation. The FBI guidelines are based on the Miami shootout where a bad guy managed to shoot a number of agents to ribbons after a bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough to hit his heart allowing him to continue on his rampage.


----------



## braillediver

I'm lusting for one of these.

 Sig X5 L1






 Here's the P229 Sport with a Scott Cook Lochsa.







 Mitch


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_+1, glasers and MagSafes have been shown to be unable to achieve the depths in ballistic gelatin to pass the FBI's test. If you read Fackler, et al, the 2 ways to take someone down are:

 1) Blood Loss - make the hole big but unless you hit an artery may take some time during which they can kill you.

 2) CNS hit - Fastest way to bring them down and the reason for the FBI's recommendation. The FBI guidelines are based on the Miami shootout where a bad guy managed to shoot a number of agents to ribbons after a bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough to hit his heart allowing him to continue on his rampage._

 

Yep. Even worse, they don't even perform like you'd expect.

Glaser through drywall.

 Compare to #4 buck and .45 ACP. Same drywall penetration as #4 buck, marginally less than .45 ACP. Both of these will do the FBI's 12" while the Glaser will not. Also see performance after going through normal drywall construction.  It seems that the fragmenting jacket won't fragment upon hitting something as soft as drywall, instead it'll impact and prevent the projectile from fragmenting at all.

 The only thing it really helps with is target overpenetration, but light, fast hollowpoints will do the same with lower price and better penetration.


----------



## gilency

Went to the desert last weekend with my kids and we had enough guns to take down a city hall (just kidding). Le me see: a Tommy gun, SKS, a bunch of shotguns, all kinds of hand guns, from a 25 Browning "purse" gun, to 22's, 38, 45's etc. and a few others. This place had all kind of junk to shoot at, from a bowling pin to an old car fuel tank. Plus we did skeet shooting. Man, we had fun!


----------



## synaesthetic

It's been a while since I took the FNP9 to the range. I should do it, but bills have been so crushing recently I had to actually sell something audio-related to buy more audio-related things. Usually I can accumulate. =P

 It's also kind of hard to take a gun to the range when you don't own a car, and you can't take weapons on public transport. I don't even have a conceal carry permit since I haven't been in OK long enough to be considered a resident.

 Edit: I guess I could lock it in the soft bag and stuff it in my satchel, but even so the buses don't exactly go to the boonies where the range is...


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm lusting for one of these.

 Sig X5 L1






_

 

That Sig X5 L1 is gorgeous! What caliber is that?


----------



## braillediver

"That Sig X5 L1 is gorgeous! What caliber is that?"

 It comes in .40 and 9mm. I've off'd everything but 9mm and .357 Sig- P229 Sport. So would probably get it in 9mm with 19 rounds of love to share.

 It's supposed to shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards if you're capable of shooting that well.


 Mitch


----------



## gpalmer

I'm curious Mitch, do you find a big difference between shooting the plastic and steel framed hand guns? Doesn't really faze me after shooting my .44 Magnum.


----------



## Listen2this1

I have a unique one in this. Dead on if you can get past the hard trigger pull. I am in the process in changing the spring for the trigger.





 H&K VP-70Z


----------



## braillediver

Just sent payment on this Sig 556 Commando:






 Didn't even know I needed one. It'll go nice with my Colt Sporter- funny name for a gun.


 Mitch


----------



## ast

I'm thinking to get a precision rifle, with more tactical flavor, not for match. What's your opinion on these:

 Iron Brigade Army: 
Iron Brigade Armory






 Tactical Operations:
Tactical Operations Inc.






 Terry Cross:
KMW - Long Range Solutions


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm thinking to get a precision rifle, with more tactical flavor, not for match. What's your opinion on these:_

 

Have you looked at anything from H. S. Precision? They make some very well thought of rifles. I myself am rather enamored of the Remington 700. It's a well developed rifle with excellent accuracy out of the box. There are also a lot of custom and precision components available for the Model 700 and they are fairly straight forward to work on. I assume you know of Brownells in Iowa. I've been very happy with the Leupold LRT scopes; my .308Win wears a 4.5-14x50mm LRT.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


 I'm thinking to get a precision rifle, with more tactical flavor, not for match. 
 

Wow. You aren't playing around. Is your optics budget as grandiose?

 What's the longest range you shoot?

 I've seen lots of praise for these guys as well:
Home - Surgeon Rifles


----------



## braillediver

"I myself am rather enamored of the Remington 700."

 I always wanted one but never get to shoot any distance worthy of it.


 Picked this up locally Thursday.







 Mitch


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always wanted one but never get to shoot any distance worthy of it._

 

At Gunsite a couple of years ago, I was able to engage a reduced steel sillouette successfully at what mil-dotted out to be 1240 yards with my Model 700 in .308Win using a 175 grain Sierra MatchKing. In June of this year, using another Model 700 in .243 Ackley Improved, I was able to fly some 70 grain Sierra BlitzKings into some unsuspecting prairie dogs between 750 and 800 yards away. Long range shooting has its particular satisfactions. BTW, nice pistol.


----------



## ast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you looked at anything from H. S. Precision? They make some very well thought of rifles. I myself am rather enamored of the Remington 700. It's a well developed rifle with excellent accuracy out of the box. There are also a lot of custom and precision components available for the Model 700 and they are fairly straight forward to work on. I assume you know of Brownells in Iowa. I've been very happy with the Leupold LRT scopes; my .308Win wears a 4.5-14x50mm LRT._

 

My only requirements are .308 calibar and Remington 700 based.

 I will check out H.S.Precision.


 ---

 I have never owned a rifle before. So my thinking is either buy something cheap like stock 700 Police, get experience then go high-end. Or just save the husstle go straight to the top.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can go either way, I just have no idea what to expect. I want advice and opinions from you.


 ...


----------



## ast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. You aren't playing around. Is your optics budget as grandiose?

 What's the longest range you shoot?

 I've seen lots of praise for these guys as well:
Home - Surgeon Rifles_

 

The only outdoor ranges around have, I believe 100Yard at the most. So that's probably the most I will practice with. But I don't want to be limited by that, 200 or 300 Yard will be my theoretical limit. 

 Optics wise, I want the absolute the best. Large field of view, easy on the eye, clear and convenient. Leupold or Night Vision are some brand I heard.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only outdoor ranges around have, I believe 100Yard at the most. So that's probably the most I will practice with. But I don't want to be limited by that, 200 or 300 Yard will be my theoretical limit. 

 Optics wise, I want the absolute the best. Large field of view, easy on the eye, clear and convenient. Leupold or Night Vision are some brand I heard._

 

At 300 yards .308 is over kill, but who cares. That's what I use to plink in the same range. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Conversely, those rifles would really be a waste at those ranges, though I'd take one if you bought two. 

 Since your budget is healthy, I don't see a reason not to go as high end on the scope as you like. My choice would be U.S Opitcs for the scope. Just like camera equipment, you can keep your high end glass while you upgraded riles to meet your needs. 

 Is your objective to put the smallest group of holes in paper possible?

 For a "starter rifle" (for many this would be an "ending" rife), I get an accurized 700 LTR for those ranges:
Remington 700 LTR 308 Accurized

 Actually, I don't even think you'd need one Accurized, but it's and option. 

 With Badger Ordnance rings and base:
Badger Ordnance | Premium Firearms Accessories

 Your choices are pretty much endless.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My only requirements are .308 calibar and Remington 700 based.

 I will check out H.S.Precision._

 

The H. S. short action takes the same bases as Remington 700 short actions; have your gunsmith increase the mounting screw size by one on the bases. I would recommend the same thing I did; get a Remington 700VS in .308Win, put some good glass in very solid four-screw rings on it, upgrade the trigger to a Timney or similar and go from there. I really like a Vais compensator. The Brownell's catalogue is one hell of a dream book for 1911/AR/Remington. Get a copy soon.


----------



## ast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've seen lots of praise for these guys as well:
Home - Surgeon Rifles_

 

the Surgeon Rifle look very impressive. 


 Their stock .308 rifle only has 20" barrel and look kinda funny and like a toy. Isn't it a little to short? seems 24" or 26" are more popular, and more accurate???? 







 Can you tell the barrel length of this one from Surgeon's website gallery? the longer barrel Looks much better --- more balanced 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 seems at least 24". if it's .308 I'd buy it.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Their stock .308 rifle only has 20" barrel and look kinda funny and like a toy. Isn't it a little to short? seems 24" or 26" are more popular, and more accurate????_

 

Barrel length does not contribute to accuracy so much as it contributes to velocity and reduction in report and recoil. Accuracy in a barrel is determined by its precision and concentricity from chamber through bore, as well as having appropriate rifling pitch for the projectile. Longer barrels provide more space for the powder charge to be burned and the projectile to be accelerated, resulting in higher velocity. When the projectile exits a longer barrel, even inches further from the shooter, the peak pressure in the barrel is down, there is less powder "air burn" and the report is noticeably less. Recoil and report contribute to shooter fatigue and flinch (shot anticipation).

 Furthermore, longer barrels incorporate more steel, which is weight that further resists and reduces recoil. One reason the older turn bolt military rifles are so much fun to shoot is that they have 25 inch or longer tubes, compared with current military rifles 20 inch barrels. I would not have a barrel shorter than 22 inches for a .308Win class cartridge, and most of mine are 26 to 28 inces long (except for the FAL). My .308Win 175 grain MatchKing load has a muzzle velocity of 2840FPS out of my Model 700's (effective) 27.5 inch barrel; that's .300WinMag country, baby! Remember, the two reasons for a precision rifle are to provide precision surgical accuracy and to provide terminal ballistic performance to defeat threats beyond the scope of a handgun or shotgun. Properly loaded, .308Win has decent anti vehicle capability within three hundred yards.

 And high velocity is the easiest way to ameliorate range calculation errors, one of the most common reasons for misses in long range shooting.

 As an aside, the length of barrel a cartridge will benefit from is dependent on the charge burned; .22LR maxes out between 18 and 20 inches and longer barrels actually provide _lower_ velocities as the projectile's velocity is "sucked back" by the quickly dropping pressure after the propellant is exhausted in the longer barrel. And years ago some match air rifles were designed with short effective barrel lengthes with a longer hollow shroud continuing further to hold the front sight assembly and maintain sight radius. This was becasue with the low velocities of match airgun projectiles and the recoil characteristics of the spring piston match airguns, the shorter barrels provided less "barrel time" for the projectile during which its path could be recoil deflected.

 On the other hand, precision rifles to be used in urban environments often have shorter barrels to make them lighter and more manueverable in close confines. It has been my experience that these ostensible qualities of shorter barrels are overrated; if it's close and quick (within 50 yards), give me my 1911 any day. Turn bolt precision rifles are not of that great value "inside the perimeter".


----------



## trains are bad

Quote:


 .22LR maxes out between 18 and 20 inches 
 

According to the people at rimfirecentral.com, the actual maximum velocity length for 22lr is less than 16 inches, unless you are using high- or hyper-velocity ammo (which is usually not very accurate IME). It's for this reason that I put a 16 inch Green Mountain barrel on my 10/22. Longer barrels have lower velocity, and I can't see the point in that. Apparently even 16 inches is longer than optimal, but our overlords have declared such efficient barrels contraband and refused to bless them with their approval.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trains are bad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to the people at rimfirecentral.com, the actual maximum velocity length for 22lr is less than 16 inches, unless you are using high- or hyper-velocity ammo (which is usually not very accurate IME)._

 

I've heard this, too, and my oldest 10/22 sports a Clark sixteen inch carbon steel fluted bull barrel (a Butler Creek folding stock and, at present, a Leupold 3.5-10x40mmAO scope) and shoots bugholes with the right fodder. I also suspect the "optimal" barrel length less than sixteen inches may be based upon a collective analysis of .22 CB caps, .22 short, .22 long, and .22LR. I consider all but .22LR obsolescent to my usual purposes (although I keep some Lapua match .22 shorts and some CB caps around for "special purposes"). My statement was based upon my own chronographic tests, and I get higher velocity readings for .22LR standard and high velocity loads from my twenty inch barrels than from my sixteen inch and shorter barrels.

 I have had the best .22LR high velocity accuracy luck with Remington high velocity 40gr and CCI MiniMag 40gr. high velocity, but nothing to compare with the accuracy potential of .22LR standard velocity. You can also get into some standard velocity .22LR, like a case of Federal I had to work my way through twenty years ago but still remember, where the ignition is so sporadic as to add velocity variations which obviate good accuaracy. To think that I went Expert in gallery pistol while shooting that stuff.

 In any wind or beyond fifty yards on game, the .22LR high velocity comes into its own.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 Can you tell the barrel length of this one from Surgeon's website gallery? the longer barrel Looks much better --- more balanced 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 seems at least 24". if it's .308 I'd buy it._

 

This is the most important quote from that web site:

  Quote:


 All Surgeon Rifles come with a .5 MOA or Better Guarantee 
 

That means their *rifles* will be capable of putting as many bullets as the shooter can fire into 1/2" area @ 100yds. I'm sure all of the rifles you linked are also as capable. But I highly doubt you are a sub .5 MOA shooter. That means that any of those rifle will work for you. Pick the prettiest and send me one, too. 

 But there are plenty of "off the shelf" rifles that shot better than 1 MOA. The Remington PSS and LTR are two. Why not start with one of these rifles. I'm all for going broke, but why not do it after you learn how to shoot and after you figure out what you want in a rifle? 


 Old Pa explained barrel length way better than I could, but at a maximum range of 300yds it ain't going to matter much for you.


----------



## ast

Thanks Old_pa for the very informative explanation. 


 I will go for longer (>=24") barrel. I know it's way overkill for 100 yard target shooting, but hey aren't we all "gearhead" and overkilling everything already ---- headphones, amps, CD, LP, .... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 ...


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Old_pa for the very informative explanation. 


 I will go for longer (>=24") barrel. I know it's way overkill for 100 yard target shooting, but hey aren't we all "gearhead" and overkilling everything already ---- headphones, amps, CD, LP, .... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This whole site is built on a big slab of overkill. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Make sure you take pictures when you get that thing. Maybe Old Pa can have us over for a first annual Head-Fi "Shoot stuff @ 1000 Yds and Listen to Headphones" meet.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe Old Pa can have us over for a first annual Head-Fi "Shoot stuff @ 1000 Yds and Listen to Headphones" meet._

 

Unfortunately there is only one thousand yard range in MN and I'm not a member. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I usually shoot out to just 400 yards, but you can figure out a lot of stuff at that range. Wouldn't mind hosting that meet just as soon as I'm sure all attendees are going to be safe with guns.


----------



## archosman

Old Pa do you have any idea what kind of rifle this is? Belongs to my brother-in-law. T-bolt. The barrel and butt-plate says it's a Browning, but it also says made in Belgium on top of the barrel. Five shot magazine and it also has a diopter rear site. He says it was some sort of Olympic style shooter. These are the only pics I have at the moment...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa do you have any idea what kind of rifle this is?_

 

I was unable to identify it in a cursory check through some of my books, but that check reminded me of how many gun makers Browning (the sports marketing company) contracted with to put the Browning name on their guns through the years. I think the key is going to be that straight pull action. Are their any dates of patent or manufacture on it? Any country of origin? I'll keep looking. BTW, if you have no more pix of the gun, we'll settle for more pix of the girl.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was unable to identify it in a cursory check through some of my books, but that check reminded me of how many gun makers Browning (the sports marketing company) contracted with to put the Browning name on their guns through the years. I think the key is going to be that straight pull action. Are their any dates of patent or manufacture on it? Any country of origin? I'll keep looking. BTW, if you have no more pix of the gun, we'll settle for more pix of the girl. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'll try and grab some more shots in the next couple of days. There also appear to be some markings on the bolt, but I'll probably need a macro to get those. Until then...











 Couldn't use my flash


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Until then...




_

 

She looks good with a gun! (apologies to "Kalifornia")


----------



## gorgak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa do you have any idea what kind of rifle this is? Belongs to my brother-in-law. T-bolt. The barrel and butt-plate says it's a Browning, but it also says made in Belgium on top of the barrel. Five shot magazine and it also has a diopter rear site. He says it was some sort of Olympic style shooter. These are the only pics I have at the moment..._

 

Looks like a sporterized Browning T-Bold Belgian .22 to me. I inherited a similar configuration on a Springfield Armory 1922 MII from my grandfather. The rear sight is the sporterized addition. Seems they were popular for competitive shooting back in the 60s and 70s. So you have a really heavy .22 with a peep sight for competitive shooting.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gorgak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like a sporterized Browning T-Bold Belgian .22 to me. I inherited a similar configuration on a Springfield Armory 1922 MII from my grandfather. The rear sight is the sporterized addition. Seems they were popular for competitive shooting back in the 60s and 70s. So you have a really heavy .22 with a peep sight for competitive shooting._

 




 It's actually pretty light. First chance I get I'll take a few closer shots.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gorgak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like a sporterized Browning T-Bold Belgian .22 to me._

 

Browning has marketed rifles made by FN, Winchester, Sako, and a Japanese manufacturer among others. Do you know who made the T-Bolt Belgian .22 rifle pictured? FN, maybe?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Browning has marketed rifles made by FN, Winchester, Sako, and a Japanese manufacturer among others. Do you know who made the T-Bolt Belgian .22 rifle pictured? FN, maybe?_

 

It's an FN. They've started making them again, but this time in Japan and only in scoped configurations.


----------



## lbcliff

How much shipped to UK? Haha.


----------



## skiingemt

I'm recently getting back into shooting, which I've always enjoyed but not done enough of. I borrowed a friends Glock 17 (9mm) and took it out to the range a couple times, and I'm thinking of buying myself a Glock 23 (40 cal). A head-fi search for "Glock 23" turned up... this thread! Which I read ALL of in the past few days, but couldn't make it to the end without buying a used Ruger 10/22! I used to have one and liked it a lot, and always kinda kicked around the idea of getting another one. So... cleaned it up, working on dialing in the scope, but I haven't had too much time to spend at the range yet. Still thinking of getting the Glock 23 though...


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skiingemt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm recently getting back into shooting, which I've always enjoyed but not done enough of. I borrowed a friends Glock 17 (9mm) and took it out to the range a couple times, and I'm thinking of buying myself a Glock 23 (40 cal). A head-fi search for "Glock 23" turned up... this thread! Which I read ALL of in the past few days, but couldn't make it to the end without buying a used Ruger 10/22! I used to have one and liked it a lot, and always kinda kicked around the idea of getting another one. So... cleaned it up, working on dialing in the scope, but I haven't had too much time to spend at the range yet. Still thinking of getting the Glock 23 though..._

 

Not a bad choice as long as you're not going to reload. With all the police trade-ins floating around, used ones are rather inexpensive for a quality polymer pistol. 2nd Gen G23s go for ~ $375 around here.


----------



## skiingemt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not a bad choice as long as you're not going to reload. With all the police trade-ins floating around, used ones are rather inexpensive for a quality polymer pistol. 2nd Gen G23s go for ~ $375 around here._

 

That's a good idea. I don't really know what to look for when buying a used gun though. I didn't worry too much about the 10/22 because it was so cheap and looked pretty clean, but can anyone tell me what to look for in a used firearm? A Glock is a bigger investment, and I'd hate to end up with a dud.


----------



## kugino

i shot my first machine gun today at the scottsdale gun club, where my friend is a member. shot a Heckler & Koch (H&K) MP-5 sub machinegun chambered for 9 mm. not what i expected at all...much more controlled than i thought it would be. 

 tons of used glocks at the gun club, too...like marvin said above, lot of police trade-ins.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skiingemt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a good idea. I don't really know what to look for when buying a used gun though. I didn't worry too much about the 10/22 because it was so cheap and looked pretty clean, but can anyone tell me what to look for in a used firearm? A Glock is a bigger investment, and I'd hate to end up with a dud._

 

The main things to check for are unusual wear and stress cracks, as well as standard function. Many places don't allow you to field strip the firearm for inspection though, so it makes things a bit harder.

 For semiauto pistols, here's the general checkout I do before purchasing.

 Frame: Check for cracks and heavy wear in rail area, compare to a new gun if possible. Finish wear on the rails is fine on metal framed guns and minor shavings are fine on polymer framed guns. 

 Slide: Check for cracks and indentations on the slide, especially around the breechface area. Slide should move smoothly along the slide rails when pulled back and should lock back when magazine is inserted. Check the extractor for wear, chipping, and spring function. 

 Barrel: Glocks have polygonal rifled barrels, so you won't see any traditional rifling when looking down the barrel. Shine a light down them and check for any unusual bulges in the barrel. Check the feedramps for modifications. Pass if you see any. Check the inside of the chamber for cracks, scratches, and wear. Check the crown for any damage. It should be pretty smooth and even there. Check for peening, wear, or deformation on the barrel hood where it locks up with the slide.

 Function: Make sure magazine release works and that magazine can be easily inserted and removed. On a Glock, it's fine if an empty magazine does not drop free when the mag release is pressed. *Make sure the magazine is removed and no cartridge is in the chamber for the following. Also get permission from the sales clerk to dry fire the pistol. Point the gun in a safe direction.* C.ock the striker by racking the slide. Pull the trigger and keep the trigger pulled. You should hear and feel a click from the striker falling. Rack the slide again. Release the trigger and pull the trigger again. You should hear and feel another click from the striker falling. The trigger pull should not be difficult and should be reasonably smooth.

 If you don't understand what I've typed, go with a friend who knows a bit more when shopping for your pistol, or buy a new one. You'll learn it all eventually, but it's better not to take a gamble on the pistol you'll be using to learn how to shoot.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The main things to check for are unusual wear and stress cracks, as well as standard function. Many places don't allow you to field strip the firearm for inspection though, so it makes things a bit harder._

 

A good preliminary check from an experienced individual, but nothing beats field stripping a used gun (and especially a used pistol) to inspect for damages and modifications indicating unreliable function. Not to belabor the point, but a pistol depends on the recoil from the firing cartrdge and its mechanical action to get to the next shot. If you did not plan on buying a single-shot, you do not want to find out by surprise that's what you have. I cannot begin to tell you the number of externally very attractive used pistols I have been considering buying only to find in a basic stripped condition had obvious physical signs that they were bad bets. If the seller will not allow a field strip of a used gun, they may well have a reason that is against your interests. After all, they plan to sell it to you "As Is" and without warranty.

 Excepting standard break-in reluctancies (which is why you want at least 200 rounds through a pistol before you depend on it), the number of mechanical problems is three to four times as high among used guns as among new guns in my experience. Somebody is selling that used gun for a reason. Police trade-ins may appear an exception, as they represent a bureaucratic trade-up, but, also in my experience, cops are employees who do not always take good care of their employer's property. You shoulld be damn sure about function if you are staking your or others wellbeing on a firearm.


----------



## NoValidTitle

Here is a snap of my Nighthawk.


----------



## archosman

Sharp. Kinda weird not seeing any manufacturer's info on the slide.


----------



## necropimp

just arrived...

 1954 Romanian M44


----------



## NoValidTitle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sharp. Kinda weird not seeing any manufacturer's info on the slide._

 

Thanks, I had to special request the way the slide is and the bobtail among other things.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

A fun short story:

 As some of you may know, I went to an Army-Navy store recently and bought a Zippo lighter. Well, oddly enough I also found an exact pair of shoes I needed to buy for pep band (red Converse) as well, and unsurprisingly they had a glass case of guns and knives.

 I was familiar with many of the knives, but I wanted to hold one of the pistols. I ask the friendly clerk if they had any Glocks; they didn't. I checked for a USP, and he said they had one model. I asked if I could hold it, and he gave this half-amused half-concerned look and asked if I was 21. Well, you guys look at my profile picture; I sometimes don't even look 18. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So the best thing he let me do was look through the glass at the USP Compact. Better than nothing, and I was shocked that the price tag was close to $900 (like, $875). Thought it would be more around the $500-$700 guesstimate.


----------



## necropimp

that price tag is because H&K anything is overpriced


----------



## jordanross

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

I laughed so hard at this! Awesome! You go man!


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jordanross* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I laughed so hard at this! Awesome! You go man!_

 

Why did you laugh so hard ?

 I just wonder why the 30-round mag is full of tracers ?


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *3x331m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just wonder why the 30-round mag is full of tracers ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I'm not sure that those are tracers. They look like poly-tip expanding bullets to me. Somthing like Nosler Ballistic tips.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure that those are tracers. They look like poly-tip expanding bullets to me. Somthing like Nosler Ballistic tips._

 

Plastic tipped bullets can be had in everything from hard-as-woodpecker-lips virtual FMJs to varmint bullets that won't make it through both sides of a full can of pop (of course there aint no can left either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I load molyed 60 grain V-max in my "social" .223Rem.


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure that those are tracers. They look like poly-tip expanding bullets to me. Somthing like Nosler Ballistic tips._

 

You're probably right. The picture color gamut makes me think of the M196 rounds.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Better than nothing, and I was shocked that the price tag was close to $900 (like, $875). Thought it would be more around the $500-$700 guesstimate._

 


 That's pretty damn high. Maybe a huge markup for the store. I've seen them for less in the stores near me.


----------



## regal

I have a NAA .32 Seecamp clone. My wife just got her CCW and I wanted to know if there are any newer small Seecamp type pistols on the market now?


----------



## archosman

Bad idea...


 That's my girl!


----------



## Mr_Junesequa

you guys are so lucky, in au we dont get to collect guns!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a NAA .32 Seecamp clone. My wife just got her CCW and I wanted to know if there are any newer small Seecamp type pistols on the market now?_

 

Seacamp-type pistols may be cute as a bug's ear, but they have several basic practical problems. May we first agree that most purchasers of these dinky pistols are doing so for self-defense? One, they are not as reliable as a Seacamp, which was not the epitome of reliability itself. No semi-automatic pistol should be deemed individually reliable until it's had at least 200 rounds through it. 

 I pinch my fingers enough reloading 9mm to know that reloading .25ACP, .32ACP, and .380ACP would be absolutely no fun, and factory loads in these are $20USD+ per fifty rounds. So most owners of these dinky guns do not get enough practice or demonstrate their pistol's reliability enough to warrant carrying it. And a back-up gun by definition should be almost more reliable than a primary pistol as it is to be used only after the start of a cluster coital event.

 Two, pistols of this class do not provide enough grip and sight radius to provide reliable practical accuracy. If practical fire power is bullets actually striking bodies in vital areas, then practical accuracy has to be part of the equation. This line for me is my ability to shoot consistent headshots with a pistol at twenty yards under stressfree conditions employing the same ammunition as will be carried in the gun.

 Three, .32ACP is below the minimum for a reliable self-defense pistol caliber. Sure, it's better than nothing, but the principal role of a self defense handgun is to stop a determined attacker with one or two vital hits. For me .35 caliber handguns with short barrels represent the minimum acceptable self defense power level. And I would always rather have a .45ACP.

 So in this class of small handgun, I kind of like my Kahr PM9 (9mm Para) or my old S&W Model 38 alloy frame Bodyguard (.38Spl). For me, with the right ammunition they satisfy all of the requirements outlined above. And as I load both calibers, I make a point of practicing with both regularly.


----------



## mrarroyo

Old Pa, a very well written response. The Kahr is a very reliable and well made piece.

 Personally I always suggest that an S&W 640 is a fantastic carry piece. Not only do you get the inherent reliability of a DAO in a caliber for which there are many loads to choose but you also have a piece which should not snag much. The 640 is sturdy enough for 38 spl in +P loads.

 Note: besides practicing make sure you use a grip that allows for good control. In other words the ultra small ones are not the best.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Note: besides practicing make sure you use a grip that allows for good control. In other words the ultra small ones are not the best._

 

Good point. My old S&W 38 has Pachmayr Compact Grippers on its cute little round butt. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, as far as I'm concerned between caving to the Clinton Justice department and incorporating the internal "kiddie lock", S&W no longer makes revolvers. 

 The Kahr works well for me just the way it is.


----------



## necropimp

after 2 weeks of waiting the big brown truck brings the long brown box

 Turkish model 1903

 purchased from century auctions for $101
 century import (if you didn't guess considering where i bought it)
 updated to 7.92x57 in 1935






more pics


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_after 2 weeks of waiting the big brown truck brings the long brown box
_

 

C&R license, Pimp?

 I like 1903's.


----------



## jordanross

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 That's my girl!_

 

I hope and pray my daughters (when I have them) will be able to do that...


----------



## gpalmer

Yee hawww!!! My two Tromix SBS just came in. 2 guns, both 12 gauge, both with 8" barrels, one has a set of XS night sights, the other has an EOTech 512 on it. Now, just have to wait for the Feds to approve the Form 4 so they can some home with me...


----------



## number1sixerfan

Any of you gun owners ever wander what may happen if you have to use your gun in self defense of your home?

 I think this is what is keeping me from purchasing. I am afraid that if I ever have to use it in self defense, that I may be prosecuted; even if I am in the right.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of you gun owners ever wander what may happen if you have to use your gun in self defense of your home?

 I think this is what is keeping me from purchasing. I am afraid that if I ever have to use it in self defense, that I may be prosecuted; even if I am in the right._

 

There's an old saying: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Check your state laws. I'm not sure about Ohio but here in Florida if a person breaks into an occupied structure there is an automatic legal presumption of intent to cause great bodily harm or death. It is perfectly legal to use deadly force in cases where you are fear of great bodily harm or death, ergo, break into an occupied structure in Florida and you're bought and paid for...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of you gun owners ever wander what may happen if you have to use your gun in self defense of your home?

 I think this is what is keeping me from purchasing. I am afraid that if I ever have to use it in self defense, that I may be prosecuted; even if I am in the right._

 

It would certainly be the worst day of your life, even if it turned out well. But legally, for the defensive shooter, a goblin in the home is the best fact situation. You should know your home, where everyone is, and your target before firing. The worst situation is where you wind up, on purpose or by accident, shooting one of your own or a neighbor. That would be intolerable. Follow the four rules and take your time _very quickly_. Even then, if not prosecuted for a criminal charge, you may well be sued in civil court. Refer to rule below.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's an old saying: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Check your state laws. I'm not sure about Ohio but here in Florida if a person breaks into an occupied structure there is an automatic legal presumption of intent to cause great bodily harm or death. It is perfectly legal to use deadly force in cases where you are fear of great bodily harm or death, ergo, break into an occupied structure in Florida and you're bought and paid for... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's called the "castle doctrine" and is being adopted on a state-by-state basis, being a minority opinion at this time. Does not replace identifying your target, knowing where all those who should be in the home are, and following the four rules.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of you gun owners ever wander what may happen if you have to use your gun in self defense of your home?

 I think this is what is keeping me from purchasing. I am afraid that if I ever have to use it in self defense, that I may be prosecuted; even if I am in the right._

 

It would most likely be the worst day of my life! Gun ownership is about responsability, accountability, and did I mention responsability?

 You must know your gun, be proficient with it, know your state laws and abide by them. If at home you have to make sure that your loved ones or neighbords are not place in jeapordy by an stray bullet.

 However the most important question can only be answered by the individual. Will you be able/capable/willing to fire at another human being? Even when that individual is in your home coming at you and you are afraid for you life (or a loved one)? If you can not answer yes then do not get a firearm. The perp will take it away from you and use it on you and your loved ones.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would certainly be the worst day of your life, even if it turned out well. But legally, for the defensive shooter, a goblin in the home is the best fact situation. You should know your home, where everyone is, and your target before firing. The worst situation is where you wind up, on purpose or by accident, shooting one of your own or a neighbor. That would be intolerable. Follow the four rules and take your time very quickly. Even then, if not prosecuted for a criminal charge, you may well be sued in civil court. Refer to rule below._

 

One of the nice things about the castle doctrine is not having to worry about the civil lawsuit.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's called the "castle doctrine" and is being adopted on a state-by-state basis, being a minority opinion at this time._

 

Here's where knowing your state law comes in handy. Florida's version of the castle doctrine goes one better on the stock version since Florida law explicitly stipulates anyone breaking into an occupied structure is presumed to be intending "great bodily harm or death" to the occupants whereas with all other versions of the castle doctrine I have studied that is not the case. In the other states I have studied you still have to prove that you were in "fear of great bodily harm or death."

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does not replace identifying your target, knowing where all those who should be in the home are, and following the four rules._

 

Identifying your target goes without saying, but was implicit in my statement; If you don't know what you're shooting at, how do you know it's someone who broke into your house? And note, my comment only addresses someone who commits forcible entry to get into your house/tent/motel room, if you left the door open and they wandered in innocently there is no presumption that they mean to harm you.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However the most important question can only be answered by the individual. Will you be able/capable/willing to fire at another human being? Even when that individual is in your home coming at you and you are afraid for you life (or a loved one)? If you can not answer yes then do not get a firearm. The perp will take it away from you and use it on you and your loved ones._

 

Agreed but I've seen the aftermath of enough criminal actions that I have an understanding of what not firing when you should can mean. I don't even hunt because I don't like harming or killing living things but if it's me or you, well, only one way that's gonna go... It's one of those decisions that I've spent a lot of time coming to grips with internally and I feel comfortable about the decision.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Florida's version of the castle doctrine goes one better on the stock version since Florida law explicitly stipulates anyone breaking into an occupied structure is presumed to be intending "great bodily harm or death" to the occupants whereas with all other versions of the castle doctrine I have studied that is not the case. 

 Identifying your target goes without saying, but was implicit in my statement; If you don't know what you're shooting at, how do you know it's someone who broke into your house?_

 

I intended no rebuke or insult in my response to number1sixerfan's question or in my response to you.

 While I have not seen the statutory language in FL or other jurisdictions enacting some form of the "castle doctrine", I am sure that the presumption statutorially created is a rebuttable presumption so as to avoid the misuse/abuse you later mention. A shooter will not be absolved of the subjective/objective belief requirement of imminent death or great bodily harm, even if part of this requirement is provided by a "castle doctrine" presumption. And depending on the age, prior record, and other characteristics of your fallen goblin, there still may be an attempt by threat of civil suit to shake down your insurer for a chunk of change. I am sure you would agree that the four rules still remain the defensive shooter's foundation.

 I understand you would positively identify your target, but other individuals awoken in the night by sounds of intrusion and scared out of their minds by the imminent risk of death or great bodily harm have been known to "reconnoiter by fire". I was just saying this impulse is to be resisted, and may be best resisted by training and a plan including the involvment of some form of _strong_ illumination. 

 Number1sixerfan made no statement of his defensive mindset or training. I'm sure you would agree that you just don't buy a gun and some blammo and figure you're good to go.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of you gun owners ever wander what may happen if you have to use your gun in self defense of your home?

 I think this is what is keeping me from purchasing. I am afraid that if I ever have to use it in self defense, that I may be prosecuted; even if I am in the right._

 



 You know what? If there's a doubt in your mind then don't buy one. Seriously.

 All of us who own firearms know that this could always be a possibility and have had to think and consider what we would do if this scenario ever came around. I'd rather you not own one than have one and commit a tragic mistake.

 It may sound like I'm being a bit of a prick, but in the long run that makes our sport safer and lessens the burden on others considering a purchase.

 Killing someone is a bad thing... even if it's deserved. If there's even a teeny doubt you may not be able to pull the trigger - don't get one for home defense.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While I have not seen the statutory language in FL or other jurisdictions enacting some form of the "castle doctrine", I am sure that the presumption statutorially created is a rebuttable presumption so as to avoid the misuse/abuse you later mention. A shooter will not be absolved of the subjective/objective belief requirement of imminent death or great bodily harm, even if part of this requirement is provided by a "castle doctrine" presumption. And depending on the age, prior record, and other characteristics of your fallen goblin, there still may be an attempt by threat of civil suit to shake down your insurer for a chunk of change. I am sure you would agree that the four rules still remain the defensive shooter's foundation._

 

The most important part of this is the use of the four rules and that is fundamental to owning a gun. When I was in at the gun shop doing the paperwork for my Saiga's I had a guy sweeping me with a 12 gauge again and again. We had a few words about that.

 In Florida the law does not provide for a "part of this requirement", it fully satisfies it. Forcible entry + occupied structure = 100% of the requirement for "intent to cause great bodily harm or death." Combined with the "Castle Doctrine" there is no civil liability if the use of deadly force is justified. It's black and white in Florida and one less thing you have to worry about.

 That doesn't mean you get to shoot randomly, it means you may use deadly force against the person causing the fear. This means you need to identify your target as always. There have been cases where the wrong person got shot and in the cases I'm familiar with the shooter was "no billed" but I would imagine that wasn't much comfort to them since they had to live with what they'd done.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand you would positively identify your target, but other individuals awoken in the night by sounds of intrusion and scared out of their minds by the imminent risk of death or great bodily harm have been known to "reconnoiter by fire". I was just saying this impulse is to be resisted, and may be best resisted by training and a plan including the involvment of some form of strong illumination._

 

Agreed, if you're going to be a Nervous Nellie and start blazing away at the first hint of trouble, leave the guns out of it. The amount of trouble you will buy yourself by adding them into the mix is far more than you'll save. And I do keep tac lights on my weapons for just such a contingency though so far I've never had to light them up. I keep a decent level of illumination going in the key areas of the house with low power CFL's and it makes it pretty easy to see who's there.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Number1sixerfan made no statement of his defensive mindset or training. I'm sure you would agree that you just don't buy a gun and some blammo and figure you're good to go._

 

+1, nope, I go to several training classes per year, probably 6-8 days worth of training on one weapon or another. When you pick up a weapon you need to respect what that weapon can do and the repercussions from its use. You also need to spend the time to know exactly what the laws are in your area.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know what? If there's a doubt in your mind then don't buy one. Seriously.

 All of us who own firearms know that this could always be a possibility and have had to think and consider what we would do if this scenario ever came around. I'd rather you not own one than have one and commit a tragic mistake.

 It may sound like I'm being a bit of a prick, but in the long run that makes our sport safer and lessens the burden on others considering a purchase.

 Killing someone is a bad thing... even if it's deserved. If there's even a teeny doubt you may not be able to pull the trigger - don't get one for home defense._

 

I'm not sure that is really the correct answer either. It would be very bad to pull the trigger when you shouldn't but I bet if you could ask the people who have been killed over the years because they didn't have a means of defense you'd find a pretty good percentage would rethink that decision. And even an unfired firearm can avoid issues. Agreed that I would consider that a gray area and I don't really want to suggest you should bluff when firearms are involved. Just look at how well that works out for the guys facing the police with toy guns...


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In Florida the law does not provide for a "part of this requirement", it fully satisfies it. Forcible entry + occupied structure = 100% of the requirement for "intent to cause great bodily harm or death." Combined with the "Castle Doctrine" there is no civil liability if the use of deadly force is justified. It's black and white in Florida and one less thing you have to worry about._

 

Before I went back to law school, I was a cop for five years (my M.S. is in criminalistics). I've been practicing law for twenty-five years now and teaching the legal aspects of lethal force to CCW applicants for more than five years. I know something of what I speak in these areas.

 While the "castle doctrine" is, IMHO, a great advance in self defense against the goblins, states attorneys with political agendas, and PI/wrongful death specializing lawyers, it's not as "dead bang" as you might like to think. Among other things, we need some case law in each of the jurisdictions to see how the courts are going to interpret the individual statutes state and federal constitutionality and how the courts are going to weigh the rights of each of the parties against each other. My best advice would be to continue to be just as careful as you were going to be before your jurisdiction enacted "castle doctrine". I would really like to see "castle doctrine" be successful in practice and spread.

 But at least the surviving householder is going to be due a jury instruction in both criminal and civil proceedings that they did not received before. And overcoming the rebuttable presumption is a much higher legal bar than the surviving householder's opponents ever had to face before. Best yet would be if this would make some of the goblins rethink burglary/home invasion entirely and find day jobs.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Before I went back to law school, I was a cop for five years (my M.S. is in criminalistics). I've been practicing law for twenty-five years now and teaching the legal aspects of lethal force to CCW applicants for more than five years. I know something of what I speak in these areas._

 

I'm sure you're a whiz at your state's laws and the "Castle Doctrine" in general. Unfortunately you're ignoring that I pointed out this is a Florida enhancement. If you look at the Florida statues "776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm." you'll find where you're going off the rails. 

 776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

 (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

 (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

 (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

 It's very cut and dried in the state of Florida and the legal cases have covered not only homes, but tents, motel rooms, etc. They forcibly enter your home, there is an automatic presumption they meant you harm, end of discussion, not long debates over whether he was actually going to use that machete on you, or that 44 magnum, no whining over whether you should have had an encounter session to steer him back onto the straight and narrow. Bought and paid for.


----------



## gpalmer

BTW Old Pa, that provision actually pre-existed before the "Castle Doctrine." The "Castle Doctrine" mainly gave us immunity from civil suits after a shooting.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure you're a whiz at your state's laws and the "Castle Doctrine" in general. Unfortunately you're ignoring that I pointed out this is a Florida enhancement. If you look at the Florida statues "776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm." you'll find where you're going off the rails._

 

I would not identify myself as much of a "whiz" on anything under any circumstances; that is not my place. Thank you for posting the link to the actual FL statutory language. It made for interesting reading and comported fully with my original understanding of the statute and assumptions stemming from that. 

 My previous legal analysis, therefore, stands unamended. I am sorry I cannot support your interpretation of the statute. FL provides no "immunity from civil suit after a shooting." It provides for a presumption of intent against the goblin during a forcible felonious entry to statutorially defined premises. My previously stated opinion is by no means "off the rails." Perhaps it is better you hear this now from me rather than from a judge under more onerous circumstances.

 There is no caselaw cited on the statute. To my knowledge, there is no caselaw at this time on the statute at all. Caselaw come from appellate judicial opinions in the jurisdiction on actual facts and circumstances appearing in actual cases at bar. You certainly don't have to accept my legal analysis, but you owe it to yourself to obtain a competent FL legal opinion before you go off, as we say, half-cocked.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know what? If there's a doubt in your mind then don't buy one. Seriously.

 All of us who own firearms know that this could always be a possibility and have had to think and consider what we would do if this scenario ever came around. I'd rather you not own one than have one and commit a tragic mistake.

 It may sound like I'm being a bit of a prick, but in the long run that makes our sport safer and lessens the burden on others considering a purchase.

 Killing someone is a bad thing... even if it's deserved. If there's even a teeny doubt you may not be able to pull the trigger - don't get one for home defense._

 

I am thinking differently. Why not ask a question about how others view the situation instead of my just going to buy a gun without thought.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am only asking because I want to make an informed purchase. Currently I go to the local range and shoot. It is too expensive to keep renting the ammo and gun, so that is another reason.

 I am just curious as how other gun owners think. I thought for sure I wouldn't be the first person to have reservations like that.

 There was a man on my street that was killed last year by two robbers. He gave them what they wanted and they still killed him. I refuse to be in that same situation with no way to protect myself. It's the laws that I want look at and I want to go about everything as responsible as possible.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would not identify myself as much of a "whiz" on anything under any circumstances; that is not my place._

 

I have to say your insights and opinions have been very enjoyable over the years. I have come to look forward to your posts and value your input highly. Generally we pretty much think alike.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for posting the link to the actual FL statutory language. It made for interesting reading and comported fully with my original understanding of the statute and assumptions stemming from that._

 

Actually, it diverges from my understanding of your previous posts. This may be my misunderstanding. It clearly states that the use of deadly force is reasonable in the case of someone forcibly entering your structure. This diverges from the common "Castle Doctrine" where you still have to prove you were in the right to use deadly force. This is not at all how I interpreted your previous postings, my apologies if I misunderstood their intent.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My previous legal analysis, therefore, stands unamended. I am sorry I cannot support your interpretation of the statute. FL provides no "immunity from civil suit after a shooting."_

 

That's a red herring since that is a side issue. That's an entirely different part of the statutes. Let's get the first issue resolved before we go for the second discussion.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no caselaw cited on the statute. To my knowledge, there is no caselaw at this time on the statute at all._

 

That would be a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. You seem to be confusing this with "Castle Doctrine" and this preceded "Castle Doctrine" by a number of years. It was enacted after Cuba dumped their prisons on our shores and the crime rates shot up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Caselaw come from appellate judicial opinions in the jurisdiction on actual facts and circumstances appearing in actual cases at bar. You certainly don't have to accept my legal analysis, but you owe it to yourself to obtain a competent FL legal opinion before you go off, as we say, half-cocked._

 

I've already gotten the opinion of Jon H. Gutmacher who is the acknowledged expert on Florida Gun Laws. His book is not only something every Florida gun owner should own it's even used to train the law enforcement community. For his analysis go here. You'll see the exact same thing I've been telling you. It is an absolute presumption that the homeowner was in the right with the only caveats the ones I linked to above. Not a jury instruction type presumption, the law enforcement personnel in theory can't even attempt to prosecute you. You can't be performing illegal acts, shooting at the Po-Po, etc. but so long as your heart is pure and you have made sure of the points I have covered in this thread, you're good to go.

 The reality of Florida gun law is that it is almost unthinkable for anyone to get jammed up if the other person was committing a seriously illegal act, especially a felony. After one incident where a homeowner shot a guy who was stealing his compressor they quoted one of the local attorneys as "I would be stunned if he were charged since the other person was in the midst of committing a felony." Long story I won't get into, but it is NOT legal in Florida to shoot someone because they are stealing your property.

 I personally think this little sidebar is very instructive for anyone wanting to use a weapon for home defense. Old Pa is what I would consider an expert in his state laws and I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts in "Castle Doctrine" as is it usually defined. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Old Pa's opinion since it is almost always dead on. 

 Generally, most of the "Castle Doctrine" laws are very similar since they were all set in motion by the NRA and therefore shared a common base. Most of them have little patches here and there which keep them from being exactly the same. And in spite of this, the reality of their application in a particular state is not going to be the same.

 That means that you MUST become an expert in your state laws or you can make your life a WHOLE LOT worse. These aren't nerf guns, you're playing for all the marbles. Saying you're sorry after the fact and you didn't meant to make a mistake isn't going to change what happens to you, at least not enough that the repercussions won't change your life forever.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's the laws that I want look at and I want to go about everything as responsible as possible._

 

That I think, is the key point. It doesn't matter how great a shot you are, if you do not understand the firearm laws as they are written and enforced in your state you can get yourself in a lot of trouble. If you aren't willing to put in that effort than I would suggest another approach. If you are, then understand that it's a lot of responsibility.

 It seems like you have your head screwed on straight though. The worst are the people who think that carrying or owning a gun gives them some sort of superpower. It doesn't, it carries a lot more responsibility with it than it gives power, at least to my mind.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am just curious as how other gun owners think. I thought for sure I wouldn't be the first person to have reservations like that._

 

Have you read back through this thread completely? Others and myself have posts where we discuss our own approaches to these questions and issues. I would just say here do not plan to defend yourself with a firearm if you are not ready, willing, and able to defend yourself with hands, feet, elbows, knees, teeth and whatever else might fall to hand in your moment of need. On this, I would recommend you read a very short book by Jeff Cooper entitled "Principles of Personal Defense."

 Humans for the most part have high psychological resistance to killing of other humans and find even justifiable self defense homicide to have high psychological cost. This has been studied in practical terms by Dave Grossman who wrote "On Killing" which I would recommend to you. Both Colonel Cooper and Colonel Grossman know of what they write.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, it diverges from my understanding of your previous posts. This may be my misunderstanding. It clearly states that the use of deadly force is reasonable in the case of someone forcibly entering your structure. This diverges from the common "Castle Doctrine" where you still have to prove you were in the right to use deadly force.

 That's a red herring since that is a side issue. That's an entirely different part of the statutes. Let's get the first issue resolved before we go for the second discussion.


 That would be a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. You seem to be confusing this with "Castle Doctrine" and this preceded "Castle Doctrine" by a number of years. It was enacted after Cuba dumped their prisons on our shores and the crime rates shot up.


 I've already gotten the opinion of Jon H. Gutmacher who is the acknowledged expert on Florida Gun Laws. His book is not only something every Florida gun owner should own it's even used to train the law enforcement community. For his analysis go here. You'll see the exact same thing I've been telling you. It is an absolute presumption that the homeowner was in the right with the only caveats the ones I linked to above. Not a jury instruction type presumption, the law enforcement personnel in theory can't even attempt to prosecute you. You can't be performing illegal acts, shooting at the Po-Po, etc. but so long as your heart is pure and you have made sure of the points I have covered in this thread, you're good to go.

 The reality of Florida gun law is that it is almost unthinkable for anyone to get jammed up if the other person was committing a seriously illegal act, especially a felony. After one incident where a homeowner shot a guy who was stealing his compressor they quoted one of the local attorneys as "I would be stunned if he were charged since the other person was in the midst of committing a felony." Long story I won't get into, but it is NOT legal in Florida to shoot someone because they are stealing your property.

 Generally, most of the "Castle Doctrine" laws are very similar since they were all set in motion by the NRA and therefore shared a common base. Most of them have little patches here and there which keep them from being exactly the same. And in spite of this, the reality of their application in a particular state is not going to be the same.

 That means that you MUST become an expert in your state laws or you can make your life a WHOLE LOT worse. These aren't nerf guns, you're playing for all the marbles. Saying you're sorry after the fact and you didn't meant to make a mistake isn't going to change what happens to you, at least not enough that the repercussions won't change your life forever._

 

Thank you for posting the link to Mr. Gutmacher's website. For the benefit of others, Mr. Gutmacher is an FL attorney and author who appears to make his livlihood in part from defending individuals who have successfully defended themselves and are now charged criminally or are being sued civilly. BTW, this has turned into quite a little national legal industry. While Mr. Gutmacher uses the term "absolute presumption," in his website explanation, FL Chap 776.013 (1) provides "A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:" and then lists other conditions which must have existed. This is the language of a rebuttable presumption, a fact question where all evidence must be put before the finder of fact. As such, I do not understand Mr. Gutmacher's assertion of "absolute presumption" and will now attempt to explain this and other issues in your quoted post. I note also that Mr. Gutmacher invites personal contact with individuals with actual cases under the law and I would not consider the website explanation as an opinion on a particular self defense transaction.

 Law has historically been filled with what are termed "terms of art"; words which have very precise legal meaning which may differ from their common usages. Legal terms of art have to be used exactly in legal analysis to have meaning and validity.

 Legal cases, both civil and criminal are tried on the facts and law in the lower trial court. The judge or the jury determines what the facts of the transaction were from the evidence presented to them. The judge dertermines both the law of what is admitted into evidence and the appropriate law to apply to the facts as they develop through that evidence. If there is law to apply to the determination of facts where there is a jury, the judge gives the jury specific instructions on how to apply that law to the facts. Along with running the show, the trial judge therefore has lots on her/his plate, all happening pretty much in "real time."

 After trial, either or both parties may be dissatisfied by the results or verdict. The trial lawyers had better have gotten all the facts they want into the record, however, because barring judicial or prosecutorial misconduct, there is no other opportunity to get evidence into the record. The trial court record, as taken down by the trial court court reporter, and the physical evidence that is admitted are the only facts that will be seen or considered by any higher appellate court. 

 If the result dissatisfaction is with the application of law, however, trial lawyers have a limited opportunity to have the trial judge's legal ruling reviewed by a higher court, the appellate court, as a matter or right, provided that they have preserved their objections in the record at the time of trial. The vast majority of trial decisions do not get appealed. The foregoing is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will suffice for our purposes.

 Caselaw, as a legal term of art, is the written opinion of the appellate court on the questions of law raised by counsel in an appealed case after reading written briefs of both sides and after argument of counsel in support of those briefs. Caselaw is not statutes, learned treatises, or other written materials. To the best of my knowledge, the new FL "castle doctrine" statute is too new to have folks shoot goblins while relying upon it, come to civil or criminal trial depending upon its rebuttable presumption for a part of their defense, and to have FL appellate courts examine the law as to its constitutional legality and as to its application to an actual case at bar. Depending on the grounds of an appeal, dissatisfied parties may appeal to the FL Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court. Those courts have discretion as to which cases they hear, but the decisions of those courts on specific points of law and then controlling on all courts under them. Issues on the FL "castle doctrine" will not be clear and settled from a legal point of view until these courts have had their say on actual cases. This takes years.

 Presumptions, either rebuttable or irrebuttable, are also legal terms of art regarding the facts of a case. "Absolute presumption" is legally meaningless. We remember that the facts of a case are determined at trial by either the trial judge or a jury. Rebuttable presumptions, such as the "castle doctrine," if applied, are great boons to the party they serve. Rebuttable presumptions mean that the finder of fact, judge or jury, must find in favor of the party they support barring a showing by the other party that the presumption should not be applied. The standard for the showing against the presumption may be set at several different levels such as (in ascending order) a preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, or evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard for showing against the presumption in the "castle doctrine" would be the preponderance of evidence standard, which may be viewed as 51%. But the presumption is a fact question and the judge is going to let all evidence on both sides of the question into evidence or face a mistrial being determined by the higher court.

 So when, in the middle of the night, three motley goblins with guns and knives come blasting into the FL condo I have rented for the month of January, I will do my absolute best to send all three "beyond this veil of tears" with 9mm, folding lockblade, kitchen knives, chairs, hands, knees, elbows, feet, and teeth. And if I am "successful", which we will define as surviving with wounds, I will have the opportunity to present to the police, that states attorney and opposing counsel(s), and, probably, one or two FL judges and juries my side of what happened and what was going through my mind at each and every instant of the horror. BTW, since any normal person will be "absolutely freaked out" after surviving such an attack, it would be best to limit communications with police to prompt notification, professional cooperation, but only "name, rank, and serial number" until properly represented by local counsel. In FL, I would probably be calling Mr. Gutmacher, who would probably want low five figures up front to get involved.

 NOTE: Preliminary advice to prospective self defense clients dealing with the police? SHUT UP! Admissions against interests cannot be taken back, are actively solicited by investigators, and are admissable into evidence as exceptions to the Hearsay Rule. This is but one reason I am concerned about Mr. Gutmacher encouraging false confidence in his representation of the "castle doctrine."

 And the states attorney and opposing counsel will have opportunity to present whatever admissable evidence they may develop on the same facts and circumstances. The judge and/or jury will get to hear that I am a knowledgeable and committed firearms owner and shooter ("gun nut") with way too many guns, reload and shoot thousands of rounds a year, have gone to many classes and train regularly at my own expense, bring a gun along on vacation, and anticipated the goblins attack enough to have made lethal preparation for it. They will probably want to put my posts in this thread and other similar threads as to my "state of mind." Only then will the judge or jury consider the "castle doctrine" presumption as to whether it applies to all of the facts in the case. 

 All this time, the states attorney and opposing counsels will be making offers to stop this prosecution/litigation hell if I will accept a lesser included offense or pay something less than their exorbitant demand. All this time I will be paying my own local counsel and dealing with the effects on myself and my family. And this is because all of us will not know for certain if the FL "castle doctrine" will apply to the facts of my case until the finder of fact in my trial court make that determination. I hope I have clearly explained this, clearly enough that you may see the months and years of hell even a successful self defense shooter must endure.

 BTW, it remains my absolute and complete intention to fight the goblins "tooth and nail." This is because I am selfish, protective and stubborn by nature and would be immediately really, really pissed off if anybody broke in or attacked me or mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 For this reason, I take Col. Cooper's instructions on situational awareness as my mantra as I realize my best protection is prevention, and the second best is recognition of threats.


----------



## gpalmer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for posting the link to Mr. Gutmacher's website. For the benefit of others, Mr. Gutmacher is an FL attorney and author who appears to make his livlihood in part from defending individuals who have successfully defended themselves and are now charged criminally or are being sued civilly._

 

Actually that is a remarkably disparaging assessment of Mr. Gutmacher's qualifications. Mr. Gutmacher occupies a position in Florida that appears to be unique among the states, at least those I'm somewhat familiar with. He is the "go to" guy for anything concerning gun law in Florida. His book is the bible for Florida, not only a great learning resource for the Florida gun owner but also used as the textbook at many of the Florida LEO training academies. He is the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to Florida firearms law.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While Mr. Gutmacher uses the term "absolute presumption," in his website explanation, FL Chap 776.013 (1) provides "A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:" and then lists other conditions which must have existed. This is the language of a rebuttable presumption, a fact question where all evidence must be put before the finder of fact. As such, I do not understand Mr. Gutmacher's assertion of "absolute presumption" and will now attempt to explain this and other issues in your quoted post._

 

Your writeup here is excellent and a fantastic writeup of the law as it stands in most "Castel Doctrine" states. Unfortunately, you extend that to include Florida and there you get yourself into trouble.

 I took the time today to reach out to some of my law enforcement friends in the state and get their input on the simple question of what would happen in the case of a home defense shooting which did not violate the conditions set forth in section 776.013.

 Response 1, from retired sergeant with local agency with over twenty years service:
 If it didn't violate 776.013, why would it need defending in court at all? All "homicides" (one human killing another human being) are reviewed by the State Attorney's Office and then if he thinks that there might be a question, he presents it to the Grand Jury. If the SAO is worth his salt, he will instruct the Grand Jury that it fell under 776.013 and they will return a No True Bill and the homeowner is off the hook and there is no court appearance.

 Response 2, from retired sergeant with another agency, also with more than twenty years service before a sniper attack on duty retired him:
 It really depends on WHERE it happened. and the exact circumstances. In a liberal area it could indeed take some time. But if the person shot has no connection with the homeowner whatsoever, and it happened outside of one of the liberal enclaves all the homeowner would be waiting for is the State Attorney to announce no charges were going to be filed. and they would not be arrested by the investigating agency to begin with.
 NOTE: I am not in one of those liberal enclaves, so that part of things really doesn't apply.

 The absolute presumption that you are having trouble understanding also applies to charges being filed. To charge the homeowner, the first thing the charging agency has to overcome is section 776.013. they have to prove or have reason to believe they can prove one of the following:
 (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

 (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

 (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

 (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

 (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.


----------



## gpalmer

BTW, I also wanted to add a couple links to counter your statement about there being no statutory protection in Florida from civil suits after the use of legally justifiable force.

First One, GunLaws
Second One, NRA


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually that is a remarkably disparaging assessment of Mr. Gutmacher's qualifications._

 

It was intended to be a short objective summary. As such, I do not see it having been in any way disparaging.

 I have being relying on the link you posted above to the statutory language in FL Chap. 776.013. No where in that language do I find 1) a statutory bar to bringing charges if an initial review by the prosecuting authority finds issues to be resolved, or 2) any mention of an "absolute presumption." If I am still missing this language, would you be so kind as to point it out? What I did find was a laundry list of exceptions to application of the presumption that any FL gun owner had better be aware of, including but not limited to, coresident, illegal activity, and lawful guardian, relationships which are commonly found in domestic shootings.
  Quote:


 I took the time today to reach out to some of my law enforcement friends in the state and get their input on the simple question of what would happen in the case of a home defense shooting which did not violate the conditions set forth in section 776.013.

 Response 1, from retired sergeant with local agency with over twenty years service:
 If it didn't violate 776.013, why would it need defending in court at all? All "homicides" (one human killing another human being) are reviewed by the State Attorney's Office and then if he thinks that there might be a question, he presents it to the Grand Jury. If the SAO is worth his salt, he will instruct the Grand Jury that it fell under 776.013 and they will return a No True Bill and the homeowner is off the hook and there is no court appearance.

 Response 2, from retired sergeant with another agency, also with more than twenty years service before a sniper attack on duty retired him:
 It really depends on WHERE it happened. and the exact circumstances. In a liberal area it could indeed take some time. But if the person shot has no connection with the homeowner whatsoever, and it happened outside of one of the liberal enclaves all the homeowner would be waiting for is the State Attorney to announce no charges were going to be filed. and they would not be arrested by the investigating agency to begin with.
 NOTE: I am not in one of those liberal enclaves, so that part of things really doesn't apply. 
 

With all due respect, and as a former LEO, neither of the individuals quoted has or has had 1) ultimate review responsibility for such an event or 2) formal legal education including licensure and period of practice. Their comments have to be viewed in terms of these limitations. That being said, both acknowledge that a Chap 776.013 transaction would be subject to prosecutorial review. If prosecutors are not satisfied, they then bring true bills or take the matter before a grand jury. In the event of the review and/or grand jury hearing, the defensive shooter is going to 1) need to retain counsel and 2) be taken back through the horrendous event several times. These represent burdens and costs on the surviving shooter which merit consideration.
  Quote:


 The absolute presumption that you are having trouble understanding also applies to charges being filed. To charge the homeowner, the first thing the charging agency has to overcome is section 776.013. they have to prove or have reason to believe they can prove one of the following:
 (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

 (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

 (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

 (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

 (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer. 
 

One more time: there is no such thing at law as an "absolute presumption." What you may be alluding to is an "irrebuttable presumption", that is a presumption which cannot be attacked by an opponent by entering admissable evidence against the presumption. "Irrebutable presumptions" are properly rare, as they effectively deny the opponent aspects of due process. The statutory language of FL Chap 776.013 clearly says "presumption". That is the language used to indicate a "rebuttable presumption;" a presumption that the opponent may introduce admissable evidence (if there is any) to rebut.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, I also wanted to add a couple links to counter your statement about there being no statutory protection in Florida from civil suits after the use of legally justifiable force.

First One, GunLaws
Second One, NRA_

 

Both of these lay articles refer to FL Chap. 776.013 as providing a bar to civil suit against a surviving defensive shooter. The language of FL Chap 776.013 makes no specific reference to such a bar to civil suit. Such a bar may however be practically inferred if a plaintiff has no sufficient evidence to overcome the applicable Chap 776.013 presumption in favor of the surviving defensive shooter. Indeed, this is clearly one of the purposes of the statute. Furthermore, a civil suit brought without sufficient evidence to overcome the presumption should be dismissed at any early stage (once that determination has been made) and would in MN be deemed frivolous. I imagine FL has similar statutes and rules which allow a defendant to recover lawyers fees and costs from a plaintiff bringing a frivolous lawsuit? But the surviving defensive shooter would still have to take her/his time and money to defend and then collect. And dead goblins and their litigous survivors rarely have funds for a surviving shooter to recover from for frivolous lawsuits. It could still be a continuing mess lasting a considerable time. It will be interesting to see what happens in actual FL cases rather than speculating in advance of the fact patterns and the outcomes.

 The only reason I have been willing to go on about this up to this time is for the clarification of certain legal points that might give someone contemplating defending life and limb with lethal force misunderstanding or even false confidence. This is, however, getting to be too much like work and straying far from the purpose and spirit of this thread. I have done my best and stand by my legal analysis but will be responding no further on this specific subject matter.


----------



## Karlos

Geez did this thread go off track. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Back to the guns for a second I've just bought a new fun gun for a spot of light relief. A Marlin 1984 Cowboy Octagonal barrel. Got it at a great price and it shoots really well.

 I was thinking about putting a peep on it but I like the open sights so much I'll stick with them for a while. I wanted it for a local Billy Dixon 300 yard shoot run at a local range but I can see me shooting it every time I go to the range with my long guns. 

 Great fun. Now back to the serious stuff over to you guys


----------



## Spiritboxer

I only have four pistols left, two Glocks the 30 and 36 which are both .45acp, a Kahr K9 Elite and a stainless Berretta 950 (.25 acp). I use magsafes for a little extra pop in the Berretta and Federal EFMJ in the others. I was really partial to S&W revolvers like the 627 V-Comp that Jerry Miculek set the speed record with and my alltime fav the 6 inch stainless 629DX (.44 Magnum). Still have about 1200 rounds of .44 mag/.44Special ammo sitting by the piano. Maybe I'll pick up one of those Performance Center jobbies to use it up one of these days.


----------



## necropimp

too much talkin not enough pics

 got the sling and bayonet for my turk a little over a week ago





 gotta love the later turk bayonets... they modified anything and everything they could get to work on their mausers... this one was a WW1 german 'ersatz' bayonet before the turks modified it 

 i'd love to have an original model 1903 bayonet the quillback blade and the original markings on them are interesting... but they aren't cheap


----------



## braillediver

I just got a Sig X-5 Tactical with a threaded barrel to which I've applied a flash supressor.

 I'll get a photo up tonight- it's an amazing weapon.


 Mitch


----------



## Old Pa

Except left-handed.


----------



## archosman

Went to a gun show this weekend. People are panicking again. Buying assault rifles and high capacity mags.

 In this aspect I'm really pissed off with who won the election. Brady bill finally lapsed, guns came down in price... and now this shiat. Looks like it's all going to go back up.


----------



## shigzeo

has anyone here ever shot anyone? i have not; not yet.


----------



## archosman

What?


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone here ever shot anyone? i have not; not yet._

 

For the last three generations, most of the men in my family served in the military, and so far, none of them had to shoot in anger.

 Talking about shooting a person is not fun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, I would not hesitate to use lethal force for self-defense or protecting my family.


----------



## choomanchoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone here ever shot anyone? i have not; not yet._

 

Me, not personaly, 
 but I've been shot at, I've heard bullets whiz by and hit objects REALLY close to me, like as in a couple of feet away from me. 
 Once in San Diego then again in Hawaii of all places, I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood in San Diego and I was chillin with a couple of friends of mine behind my friends house in the alley, then we notice an unfamiliar car that drove by several times, then the third time as the car stopped about thirty yards away, we saw a guy come out halfway of the passenger side window and yelled something that to this day I can't remember, then BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! .

 Obviously everybody ran for their lives, myself included, I actually jumped over a five foot wall into my friends yard.
 Once you experience something like that you realize that those are sounds you never forget or ever want to hear ever again. 

 But here is the weird thing, in Hawaii( where I live now), about ten years later, I was having a couple of beers with my girlfriend at the time in a little league baseball field(only cause it was dark enough to do whatever you wanted, without getting noticed-wink-wink, but that's another story)then all of a sudden those same familiar bullet sounds came whizzing by.

 Come to find out the next day from the news paper, that there was some sort of a drug deal gone bad in the same area, where some dudes started shooting at the other guys, and it just so happens we were hanging out in the line of fire.


 anyways, sorry for the long drawn out post.


----------



## archosman

I've seen someone stick a gun in their mouth and blow the back of their head off. That was bad enough. 

 Being a firearm owner you have to take under consideration that having to defend yourself is a possibility.

 Killing someone is never a good thing... even if it's justified. This thread is about sport/hunting firearms. 

_*Let's keep it that way.* _ 

 If you're really curious go find the book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Dave Grossman. Go to Amazon and read up on what this book covers.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Went to a gun show this weekend. People are panicking again. Buying assault rifles and high capacity mags.

 In this aspect I'm really pissed off with who won the election. Brady bill finally lapsed, guns came down in price... and now this shiat. Looks like it's all going to go back up.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Just consider all the relatively new firearms that are going to be now available on the used market right after Christmas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just waiting for the next local shooting to get hyperbolicized nationally by the media, going hand-in-hand with the renewed weekly "homeless" report, as they beat the drums for the old agenda.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone here ever shot anyone? i have not; not yet._

 

Dumb question. Way off topic.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just consider all the relatively new firearms that are going to be now available on the used market right after Christmas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just waiting for the next local shooting to get hyperbolicized nationally by the media, going hand-in-hand with the renewed weekly "homeless" report, as they beat the drums for the old agenda.


 Dumb question. Way off topic._

 






 Problem is I'm freelance and don't have a lot of disposable income at the moment.

 I really want one of these...








 but I'm concerned those bozos will ban importation of it since it comes from Germany. It's a .22 with a 22 round magazine.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really want one of these...








 but I'm concerned those bozos will ban importation of it since it comes from Germany. It's a .22 with a 22 round magazine._

 

Believe me, I know the siren song of "gun desire". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's just my opinion, but a friend of mine has one of those and I prefer my Ruger 10/22 with Butler Creek folding stock, Clark fluted 16" barrel, Leupold 3.5-10x40mm scope and 25 round magazines. Much lighter, better trigger and sights, more accurate, and not "wannabee". BTW, "wannabee" can be known to cause problems. Shoots match .22LR ammo into one hole at 50 yards.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Believe me, I know the siren song of "gun desire". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's just my opinion, but a friend of mine has one of those and I prefer my Ruger 10/22 with Butler Creek folding stock, Clark fluted 16" barrel, Leupold 3.5-10x40mm scope and 25 round magazines. Much lighter, better trigger and sights, more accurate, and not "wannabee". BTW, "wannabee" can be known to cause problems. Shoots match .22LR ammo into one hole at 50 yards._

 


 Oh I know. Just want it for the coolness factor. Actually handled one (didn't shoot it) a couple of months ago. Also have a Ruger 10/22 and you're right.


----------



## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread is about sport/hunting firearms._

 

really it's about all firearms

 but at the same time discussing such touchy subjects as using the firearm on another human is something i frown upon in my thread... we've made it this far without the thread getting locked and that subject can lead to bad places

 but back on topic today or tomorrow i'll be picking up the stevens model 67E i put on layaway (so broke i have to put a cheap shotgun on layaway...)


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_really it's about all firearms

 but at the same time discussing such touchy subjects as using the firearm on another human is something i frown upon in my thread... we've made it this far without the thread getting locked and that subject can lead to bad places

 but back on topic today or tomorrow i'll be picking up the stevens model 67E i put on layaway (so broke i have to put a cheap shotgun on layaway...)_


----------



## leftnose

I'm also back over to the gun store to pick up my weekend purchase (3-day wait for handguns in IL). I picked up a S&W 6" 686 Plus and a matching 10-shot 6" 617.

 I've only got a few dozen long guns in the safes but these will be the first handguns.

 There was quite a bit of activity at the tactical counter while I was in the store.


----------



## archosman

Hmm...


----------



## leftnose

Can someone recommend a handgun forum similar in quality to this board? I'm having some issues with the Hogue grips that came stock on the revolvers I bought and would like to do some reading on alternatives.

 Thanks.


----------



## nickknutson

Hey All,
 I'm looking to buy first gun(s). I'm looking to get a handgun and an AR. I've got it narrowed down to a Springfield XDM40 or an XD45 for the handgun, and I'm not sure which AR to get...I keep looking at the DPMS's.
 Does anyone have experience with the XD's from Springfield? If anyone has some other recommendations for different handguns, let me know. I'm looking for a light, reliable, hammerless handgun. Also, what are the advantages of a 45 over a 40?
 As for the AR, I'm not very educated when it comes to these...I just really like how light they are. I'm completely open to suggestions for these. Accuracy, reliablity, power, and looks are what I'm looking for...the meaner looking, the better! LOL
 Later!

 OldPa, are there any certain criteria that one needs to meet for a conceal and carry permit in MN?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nickknutson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OldPa, are there any certain criteria that one needs to meet for a conceal and carry permit in MN?_

 

How to Get a Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon in Minnesota | eHow.com

 Just say "1911".


----------



## nickknutson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How to Get a Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon in Minnesota | eHow.com

 Just say "1911". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks! Do you have a conceal and carry permit? I'm guessing my local police department is where I go for this?
 I don't get the "1911".

_Edit: Just Googled "1911", now I get it.
 I'm looking for something that fit's my hand, I've got wide hands and need a longer grip...that's why I was looking at the XD/XDM._


----------



## Old Pa

Yes I do and I've taught the legal implications of concealed carry and lethal force for permit holders a number of times. The county sheriff handles applications and the link below is for the current form. New applications are $100.00 for five years.

 John Moses Browning's United States Government Model of 1911 in .45ACP has for many of us been the end of the story on defensive handguns for almost 100 years. If you insist on a "modern" design, I would recommend you look at Kahr's line of .40S&W and .45ACP pistols. Plan on buying at least five extra magazines. 

 I have shot and reloaded 9mm Para and .45ACP for thirty-five years; .40S&W, while redundant to my needs in my view, supplies adequate stopping power in a cartridge length similar to the 9mm, allowing for smaller grips which some people prefer or need.

http://www.gunthorp.com/CarryApplication100106.pdf


----------



## leftnose

I was at the gun shop last night and they had in stock a Sig 226 SCT. It's pretty big for concealed carry but would make a nice home defense gun.

 They also had a 229 SAS which, with a change in grips, would make a nice conceal carry gun.

 However, since these are your first guns, I might be tempted to recommend a medium frame revolver like a S&W 686. Shoot light .38 Specials to start then move up to .357. Revolvers are simpler and are easier to "make safe" than a semi-auto.

 I'm NOT saying that a semi-auto is more dangerous than a revolver; I'm just saying that a revolver might be a better choice for someone new to handguns.


----------



## nickknutson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was at the gun shop last night and they had in stock a Sig 226 SCT. It's pretty big for concealed carry but would make a nice home defense gun.

 They also had a 229 SAS which, with a change in grips, would make a nice conceal carry gun.

 However, since these are your first guns, I might be tempted to recommend a medium frame revolver like a S&W 686. Shoot light .38 Specials to start then move up to .357. Revolvers are simpler and are easier to "make safe" than a semi-auto.

 I'm NOT saying that a semi-auto is more dangerous than a revolver; I'm just saying that a revolver might be a better choice for someone new to handguns._

 

I'm not new to guns, it'll be my first firearm purchase. I've used guns all my life. My father was a police officer and he let me shoot his Glock 40 a few times...and I really liked it.


----------



## appophylite

My parents recently moved to a new house in a nicer area of than our old house. The only thing that mildly concerns my father is that there is a lot of space between houses in this area and lots of forest and hills. He has been contemplating purchasing a small handgun as a defensive fallback in the event of potential burglary while he and my mom may be home. The only person in my family who has any experience firing a gun is me as I have gone hunting on several occasions with some friends. In any case, he is looking for a very simple gun with low maintenance that would be a good starter for learning on and keeping in the event of self defense. Any help with recommendations?


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *appophylite* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any help with recommendations?_

 

Smith and Wesson 686+ with a 4" barrel. Shoot it with .38 specials to begin with to learn and then progress to .357 Magnum. Very simple to maintain and clean and it's heavy enough to tame recoil. Since portability isn't a concern, the extra weight isn't a detriment.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *appophylite* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any help with recommendations?_

 

S&W K frame .38SPL with four or six inch barrel. Lots of police trade-in revolvers out there, just have a competent revolver gunsmith test it for timing and function. Model 10 or 15 comes to mind. You don't need a stainless L frame magnum to start.


----------



## Cinders

I have no guns yet, but I'd like to get one eventually, if I ever get the money, but that won't be anytime soon.

 Anyways I think I've narrowed my choice down to either a Beretta 92FS or a CZ-75B SA. I love the way they both look, I think the SA is more visually appealing then the regular cz-75, also I think having drop free magazines would just be awesome. XD Single action only is a bit uncommon I guess (other than 1911's i mean) but I think it'll be fine. I don't have any plans to carry anytime soon, but if I did I could just have it cocked and locked.

 So if anyone's owned both, (i doubt there are many cz-75b sa owners :\) I'd like to know your opinions on both. Stuff like which has less recoil, which feels lighter, etc.

 I shot a Glock 19 once at a gun range, but I didn't like it at all.


----------



## marvin

I tend to think Maverick 88 Security for inexpensive home defense. Better range, better accuracy, better terminal effects, all for less money. Most first timers I take to the range can't reliably hit a B27 target at 25 yards with a pistol, but can knock clays out of the sky.

*nickknutson:*

 Right now is not a good time to buy an AR. They're flying off the shelves and many of the shops that have some left are seriously price gouging. Better to wait until after Christmas when many of those guns will go right back to the gun shops on consignment to pay off debts. Of the major manufacturers though, Stag is one of the the better bet for a lower priced AR ($700's). A bit higher up and Colt's 6920 (~ $1200-1400) is the standard by which all M4 style AR's are measured.

*Cinders:*

 Both are good, reliable pistols and it's really down to what fits you best. They're also commonly available (well, DA/SA version for the CZ), so the best option would be to visit your local gun shop and find which one feels better to you. Even better if you can get some trigger time with them. 

 I'd be a bit wary of buying either one sight unseen though, even in NIB condition. The 92 doesn't not work well with smaller hands as the grip is rather thick and it's a long reach to the trigger. The Vertec variant is a bit better in this regard, and the Type M variant (single stack) is much better. On the other hand, CZs feature considerably rougher machining than Berettas and I've run into some with particularly terrible triggers. They work, but are overly rough and gritty.


----------



## shigzeo

im quite a bad shot and shot my dad before but it was fortunately with a pellet gun. it ricocheted off a rock or something and hit his face. i thought i had blinded him. my mate in the army shot many people he said. 

 i think my dad owns an old 18c rifle. or did, i would have seen it if it is still in the house (it had better not be as i think it is banned). my granddad had a veritable gun locker on his ranch. i went down there many times and learned to almost shoot a can from a close distance.


----------



## appophylite

leftnose and Old Pa:

 Thanks for the recommendations! I was thinking a 9mm semi-auto was probably going to be the easier pistol but looks like both recommendations are for a S&W .38 special. I'll have my dad look that way. Thanks again!


----------



## Cinders

Thanks marvin.

 I have pretty big hands so I'm not too worried about the 92fs but I will definitely try to get my hands on both of them before making a decision.


----------



## mrarroyo

I am very partial to 45 acp, being shot out of a 1911 style firearm. It has been a while since I purchased a 45 but the Norinco was a very good piece at an atractive price.

 If you do get a 45 have a gunsmith go over it for fit. Specifically I am talking aobut a flat back or round. I shoot better w/ the flat back (spring cover).

 But as a first piece and one w/ low maintenance nothing beat a 38 spl wheelgun.


----------



## synaesthetic

ARs and M4geries are going to have high price tags, and I doubt they'll go down much. Considering the current makeup of the you-know-what, the fears of a resurgent AWB are spinning out of control amongst my gun-nerd friends.

 Hopefully if it rears its ugly head, it'll leave milsurp alone. History is awesome and guns are awesome. It's even more awesome when you have both history and guns in one!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cinders* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyways I think I've narrowed my choice down to either a Beretta 92FS or a CZ-75B SA._

 

I have never fired a CZ-75, but its ergometrics seem to draw back to an HP-35. The Hi-Power has great ergometrics, but does not like +P or +P+ loads or to feed many hollowpoints; best with hardball. Since 9mm Para requires effective expanding bullets to be a stopper, this is limiting. Maybe the CZ-75 fixed this.

 A number of years ago, I was queer to get a new handgun, so I borrowed a M92 and a P7 and put several hundred rounds through both of them. Both functioned fine, but no thank you, for me. The M92 was a counterintuitive club for me, and the P7 was just weird as to trigger and sights. My $.02.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synaesthetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ARs and M4geries are going to have high price tags, and I doubt they'll go down much. Considering the current makeup of the you-know-what, the fears of a resurgent AWB are spinning out of control amongst my gun-nerd friends.

 Hopefully if it rears its ugly head, it'll leave milsurp alone. History is awesome and guns are awesome. It's even more awesome when you have both history and guns in one!_

 

Stuff like this is why prices will go down... The market is just too hot right now. If a honest to goodness recession starts, people are going to find out in January that the $1500 wonderblaster they picked up this month would go a long ways to paying their car note...

 As for milsurps, they're probably the most vulnerable thing out there. US milsurps are drying up and funding may be touch and go with Dems in power. Foreign milsurps are just one Executive Order away from vanishing, much like Norincos. It shouldn't be too high of a priority though since few of those fall under any "assault weapon" definition.

*edit:*

 Haven't posted a gun in a while, so here's my current AR. 16" pencil barrel with carbine gas on a CavArms MKII polymer receiver. Sight package is an Aimpoint T1 with fixed irons. As pictured, it weighs in at just under 7 lbs with a loaded magazine. Sold off the other AR last week to fund my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun setup...


----------



## Old Pa

Of my five ARs (3 colts, a JP/DPMS custom, and a carbon Bushy, all post-ban), only the JP/DPMS custom cost me more than a grand. Granted, with triggers, optics, and other gunsmithing, all would have FMVs higher than that now. But $1300, $1500, $2,000 for some stock model AR means that the current buyer is just giving the difference in money away. And most of these guns are not going to get shot enough to make their owners even half way competent. Just nuts.


----------



## Samgotit

Howa Varminter Supreme .308 in a Bell and Carlson stock. I had the horrible, stock bolt knob milled off and threaded. It was replaced with the one in the photo. 

 Range fun, 50 rounds and my shoulder's done.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Range fun, 50 rounds and my shoulder's done._

 

What bullet weight and load?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What bullet weight and load?_

 

Hornady 168gr BTHP under 40.5gr of IMR 4895. Maybe I'm just a puss. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Sold off the other AR last week to fund my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun setup..._

 

That's one interesting swap, Marvin.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hornady 168gr BTHP under 40.5gr of IMR 4895. Maybe I'm just a puss. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nah. Fifty rounds of that load off the bench would set anybody's brain to sloshing. Most of my .308Win bolt guns have Vais comps. Really like the little suckers.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah. Fifty rounds of that load off the bench would set anybody's brain to sloshing. Most of my .308Win bolt guns have Vais comps. Really like the little suckers._

 

Yep, I really should have had the barrel threaded when I had the bolt handle threaded. The machinist I sent it to could have done both and actually sells his own in-house compensator. That was a mistake. 

 Still, it's grouping far beyond my expectations. Bellow is the first time it took it to the range for sight-in. I've got a few groups like that since, but either I am not that consistent or the gun/load/bullet/bras isn't. I'd bet it's me. I just don't have the experience yet to tell which. That's a four shot group @ 100yds in the center. I was also surprised by the cheap Burris Fullfield II scope. I was able to very precisely walk the rounds to the center with it. It's held zero ever since.


----------



## necropimp

got it tuesday but haven't been able to get a good photo due to rain


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got it tuesday but haven't been able to get a good photo due to rain 




_

 

I thought it was a Savage pump, should have kept mine. Cheap but super reliable.


----------



## john_jcb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^^ There you go, trying to get this thread closed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ^^^_

 

We won't let that happen.

 Spent yesterday at the range sighting in my new Remington 7MM Mag and checking to make sure the 270 WSM had not been bumped out of true during last year's hunting. All was done using my own hand loads. I am always a bit amazed at the consistency of hand loaded ammunition. The 270 tests were all in a group that you could draw a 1.5 inch Dia. circle around. I was very pleased with this as the wind was a real factor yesterday. In those rare moments of now wind the groups tightened up considerably. 

 One nice thing about a windy day is that the haze from shooting dissipates quickly. Last time I went it was dead calm and it was like a foggy London day as there was no wind to clear things away. 

 Well deer season starts at dawn next Saturday and I will be off to Northern Wisconsin for 10 days, 9 hunting. The season is just in time as we are just about out of meat and the sausage is long gone. The last jalapeño sticks were consumed last week. I try and ration them or they wold be gone in a couple of weeks. They are so good even those that cringe at eating venison like them.


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *appophylite* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I was thinking a 9mm semi-auto was probably going to be the easier pistol but looks like both recommendations are for a S&W .38 special._

 


 You might also want to check out the Glock 17/19/26 or Springfield XD-9 models.

 Also, the Ruger SP-101 3" is also very versatile and reliable for both 38 spec. or magnum. If you like magnum, you can also look at Ruger GP-100. 

 The above pieces are good for self-defense at affordable prices.

 Be safe !!


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought it was a Savage pump, should have kept mine. Cheap but super reliable._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^^ There you go, trying to get this thread closed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ^^^_

 

Sorry but I do not understand why you say I tried to get the thread closed.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry but I do not understand why you say I tried to get the thread closed._

 

I was not referring to your post. archosman posted some "gun rights" material that has been deleted and that I was pointing to. I was the post immediately after it, but I should have quoted it to preserve things and be clear.


----------



## mrarroyo

Ok, I thought I had messed up. Thanks.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I thought I had messed up. Thanks._

 

Not at all; whoever pulled archosman's post should have pulled mine, too. Otherwise it's pure confusion.


----------



## abluesman

I came to Head-Fi looking for some help on Denon ah-d950s and found too much information.
 I'm taking them apart & would like to talk to someone who's been there.
 Tech help here is too extreme! Their into hardware, I'n into software.

 I do have one.


----------



## regal

P-32 in Satin Nickel


----------



## OverlordXenu

Is a Kimber Pro Carry II HD a good choice for a concealed carry weapon?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is a Kimber Pro Carry II HD a good choice for a concealed carry weapon?_

 

As long as you've got a good holster, a heavy duty belt, and are very familiar with the manual of arms for a 1911, yes.


----------



## john_jcb

My hunting trip to Northern Wisconsin was another 10 great days. Every year I marvel on how cathartic it is to retreat to the woods staying in a shack with no power or running water. We did come out of the woods for Thanksgiving and went to my SIL's mother's hose near Superior for a shower and turkey.

 Not much shooting for me; I took my 7MM Rem Mag and 270 WSM and only shot once with the 270. I got a small buck that will be great eating. Overall we had a slightly less productive year than in the past only harvesting 12 deer. there was at one point 8 guys in camp but it dwindled after opening weekend due to job demands. The weather was colder than it has been for the last few years and the low on the indoor thermometer registered 8° F. We had a little snow but not the 4-5 inches we were hoping for.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is a Kimber Pro Carry II HD a good choice for a concealed carry weapon?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As long as you've got a good holster, a heavy duty belt, and are very familiar with the manual of arms for a 1911, yes._

 

.45ACP, right? What Marvin said (although a shoulder rig is sometimes more convenient for me) and also: at least three magazines that work reliably, a 250 round break-in on the pistol for reliability and familiarization. I am taking "very familiar with the manual of arms for a 1911" to mean the ability to grip, present, orient front sight, and surprise break trigger to produce 2" accuracy at any range of operation and certainly out to ten yards and including dissassembly/assembly for cleaning and emergency mechanical clearing of all common malfunctions, this ability so practiced as to be automatically employed at times of short notice and extreme fright and duress.

 On 4" Kimbers; I had one which I was enfatuated with the form but could not get reliable function and therefore sold. It is a common problem of the 4" 1911s that they tend to jam because they have a slightly shorter mechanical action thant 5" guns and the spring timing must be perfect or they misfeed. The 250 round reliability test with the ammunition you are planning to carry is therefore most important.

 BTW, nice looking pooch.

 John: Glad you had a good trip and time away. I remember leaving Chicago for the Northwoods more than twenty-five years ago to go hunting or fishing and how the city tension just falls away on the road north. Congratulations on your buck. Nothing like having your own venison in the freezer. Dry aged venison sausage, anyone? Yum.


----------



## Myrdin

My two favorites:

 Winchester Model 12. Old modifications include shortened barrel, variable choke, "pre-ban" ivory bead sights, rubber buttpad. Designed for defense against kitties in Africa. It has serious character.





 ...and I haven't taken a proper picture of my new CZ P01 yet. It has proven itself to be amazingly reliably. I fired 2000 rounds of cruddy ammo, 500 of that hollowpoints, without cleaning. There were no malfunctions of any kind and I managed some of the best groups I've ever shot with a handgun. A few thousand more practice rounds and this will be my new CCW.


----------



## sdcloud69

sweet thread


----------



## z50j

Awesome!!!! The only thing I have in my inventory is my CZ Slavia airgun and my dads Glock G26 (which I get to fire once in a while)

 and again

 Awesome!!!!


----------



## GUINNE55

Only the ones I get to use in the army...

 Mostly a C9 LMG these days. I'd like to get into hunting, but kinda hard when your expanding a hifi collection, both these hobbies ain't exactly cheap..


----------



## crimsonVoid

I don't own a gun. In our country.. nobody has a gun. Except some hunters. And I like it that way
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But i'm getting a compound sport bow soon: )


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crimsonVoid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't own a gun. In our country.. nobody has a gun. Except some hunters. And I like it that way
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But i'm getting a compound sport bow soon: )_

 


 You know an arrow is actually more deadly than a bullet. Properly placed a deer will go down quicker with an arrow.


----------



## leftnose

Stopped by my gunstore yesterday and placed an order for two new pistols:

 Sig 226 SCT in 9mm
 and
 Kimber Custom Target II

 The waiting begins!


----------



## crimsonVoid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know an arrow is actually more deadly than a bullet. Properly placed a deer will go down quicker with an arrow._

 

I believe you, heard that many times by skilled archers and hunters. Though I never tried shooting with a gun, I like bows since I was little. Maybe I'm going to try it someday with a rifle.. But, always just artificial targets, no animals or people


----------



## john_jcb

Please keep this discussion on track. 

 We don't want to drift off into a discussion of gun laws in different parts of the world.

 BTW my daughter ordered me a nice 3 die set for reloading my 7 MM rem Mag for Christmas. It is a special order so all I really got was a piece of paper. Gives me a little time to buy some more brass bullets. I have been very pleased with the consistency of my reloads; what I really like is that it has seemed to eliminate the occasional flier. Now all I can blame for a miss is me.


----------



## soundmotor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *necropimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 but i've noticed a fair number of us are gun owners_

 

I can think of no better forum to make my first post!

 I offer these up for inspection -

*MAS 49/56* 7.5x54 w/ correct French scope, mount, sling, accessories, & kepi. (Not shown is the correct scope case that was in transit.)






 It is re-arsenaled but does not appear to have seen any use afterwards. Furniture is new appearing as is the parkerizing so, "never dropped" either. Finding the kepi was by total chance and found in an antique store. Did not know what branch of service, likely Veterinarian or Marching Band with usual luck. A look-up on wiki shows it to be Légion étrangère, officer! (French Foreign Legion)

*Hungarian M/52 '02'* 7.62x54R w/ correct Hungarian scope, scope cover, mount, & sling.






 Made in Hungary by FEG in the early 1950's. It is their version of the Mosin-Nagant 91/30. Very few imported here, most came into the US as Vietnam GI bring backs which are usually found in flogged condition. It is also unfired & non-import marked. Bluing and furniture are perfect and the bolt still has the factory applied protective lacquer on it. Probably a very good story on how this 50+ year old Iron Curtain sniper came to the US in new condition. The fit & finish is more like a US commercial rifle from the 60's. The difference between it and a Russian 91/30 is truly amazing in that regard. Overall, it is a 99.9% piece.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundmotor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can think of no better forum to make my first post!_

 

Welcome. You are among friends.


----------



## IceClass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crimsonVoid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't own a gun. In our country.. nobody has a gun. Except some hunters. And I like it that way
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But i'm getting a compound sport bow soon: )_

 

People tend to be more polite to each other when the next guy could be packing.

 CZ527 in .22 Hornet is my ring seal hunting rig.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IceClass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CZ527 in .22 Hornet is my ring seal hunting rig._

 

That should be the clear ticket for that kind of hunting. What do you use for sights in the cold? Iron or optical and just leave it outside?


----------



## IceClass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That should be the clear ticket for that kind of hunting. What do you use for sights in the cold? Iron or optical and just leave it outside?_

 

The CZ527 is the "American" model and hence has no iron sights.







 I however, use a Nikon Monarch 3x7x39 scope.

 Cold isn't much of a problem. On the occasional "deep" cold day, the lubricants can get a little whiney but other than that it's been a standout success.

 Generally, when we're out hunting in winter, the guns stay out in the cold unless we're camped out on the sea ice in Polar Bear country in which case there's usually an old Lee Enfield .303 beater from WW2 around in the tent.

 Unfortunately, a good and reliable firearm doesn't do &%$# to keep three day blizzards at bay.






 Most of my use of the CZ527 is during open water season hunting ring seals from a boat. 






 My biggest problem to date is sea spray and light rust.
 Doesn't seem to matter how well I clean up after a trip, there always seems to be a little bit I missed.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IceClass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My biggest problem to date is sea spray and light rust.
 Doesn't seem to matter how well I clean up after a trip, there always seems to be a little bit I missed._

 

Nice pix; they take me there. Pretty intense after three days under canvas in a storm when you've got work to do. You are talking about one of the worst environments on earth for maintaining blued steel. The only thing to make it worse would be getting some blood on the blued surface. All I can think about (besides cleaning) is some penetrating and bonding lubricant/protectant like LPS. Some folks have tried various waxes, but those concern me about just gumming up the works. I've got one of those SMLE beaters in the other room right now. There is something to be said about a full patch .303 170 grain bullet at 2200FPS. Those rifles sure have seen a lot of the globe for more than a century.


----------



## john_jcb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice pix; they take me there. Pretty intense after three days under canvas in a storm when you've got work to do. You are talking about one of the worst environments on earth for maintaining blued steel. The only thing to make it worse would be getting some blood on the blued surface. All I can think about (besides cleaning) is some penetrating and bonding lubricant/protectant like LPS. Some folks have tried various waxes, but those concern me about just gumming up the works. I've got one of those SMLE beaters in the other room right now. There is something to be said about a full patch .303 170 grain bullet at 2200FPS. Those rifles sure have seen a lot of the globe for more than a century._

 

You are so right about blood and rust. For many years now I always carry unscented baby wipes in a zip lock bag in my fanny pack. After cleaning an animal a couple of these do a great job without the need for water. I use LPS but have never tested it in a salty air environment. When i worked for the Navy corrosion was a constant concern and at the time we never found any protection that would guard against rust for any extended period in a salty environment. Cleaning very often and reapplication were a must. It has been quite a few years since I have worked in the field so maybe there are new products available that I have not come across but LPS works for me here in the Midwest.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john_jcb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For many years now I always carry unscented baby wipes in a zip lock bag in my fanny pack._

 

Permatex _Fast Orange_ (mechanic's lanoline hand cleaner with or w/o pumice) has been available in both wipes and waterless tube for the past several years. More powerful cleaning action for me than baby wipes and the lanoline helps keep skin on my hands. Now a days, one challenge is to get through winter without deep cracks forming at fingertips. Butter up my hands at every opportunity.

 If you degrease after cleaning with alcohol or some commercial degreaser like Birchwood Casey's, then coat with LPS and let it sit for at least an hour but better overnight, the LPS seems to penetrate and hold the metal surface better.

 While still slightly behind a .22Hornet ballistically, a Ruger stainless K77/22 varmint (24" heavy barrel, laminated stock) or RSMP (20" barrel, open sights, rings, synthetic stock) with a 40 grain solid (I imagine you want neither meat nor skin damage) like CCI's MaxiMag and with appropriate scope could be quite attractive. I looked at these before getting my left-handed Cooper LVT in .22Mag, but Ruger does not make its 77/22 in left-handed action. I don't know if you reload your .22Hornet (those little guys are pretty thin brass), but not fumbling to pick up empties in arctic conditions could be a very good thing.


----------



## john_jcb

Does anyone have any experience with a Springfield .45 1900 VD Series or the .40 XDM pistols? A friend from texas recommended it and I was wondering if any of you have experience with it.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john_jcb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have any experience with a Springfield .45 1900 VD Series or the .40 XDM pistols? A friend from texas recommended it and I was wondering if any of you have experience with it._

 

I picked up an XDm in .40 S&W a while back, and in short, it’s a competent polymer pistol that’s about $100 overpriced. The only standout feature is magazine capacity, which is about 2-3 rounds higher than would be expected from grip dimensions. 

 Trigger is smooth and steady with reset distances close to that of a Glock. (Read: short, but no 1911.) Still, it’s heavy (~6-7 lbs) and has quite a bit of pre-travel for something with a “match” designation. The swappable backstraps work, but require a tight roll pin to be punched out for swapping. The M&P's toolless system does it better. Recoil is the softest and least snappy I’ve experienced with .40 S&W, but that’s likely a function of how heavy the XDm is for a polymer pistol. (Unloaded, it’s ~30% heavier than the Glock 23.) Accuracy's about the same as every other full size pistol I've had, though the low recoil does make it easier to shoot accurately.

 All in all, it’s a good pistol if the ergonomics work for you. But given the price differences, there’s really nothing other than ergonomics to recommend it over a Glock, XD, or M&P. It’s a lot like the Sig P250 in that way.


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## boomzilla

almost on topic, since a rifle is involved...would you guys check out my website & give feedback...my email address is also linked in website...

 rifleart.com 

 thanks, glenn


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## Uncle Erik

Could I get some recommendations for another handgun? I'm thinking about a second one, but keep going back and forth on all the models.

 What I have now is a full sized H&K USP .45. Great gun and am completely happy with it. In the past, I've owned a S&W Sigma .40 and a Beretta 92FS. The Beretta was great, the Sigma was OK.

 For a second gun, I'd like one chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. I'm not much for compacts or revolvers - I prefer full framed autos. I'm OK with polymer and steel frames and would spend up to $800 or $900.

 I'd use it for target practice at the range and as a backup (maybe primary?) with the USP for home protection. I don't shoot competitively, either. What I want is complete, unquestionable reliability, accuracy and something that I can put 300-400 rounds through at the range without killing my hands.

 Also, there's a chance I'll end up in a state offering CCW permits in the next 12-24 months. I might end up carrying this weapon, too.

 A 1911 is interesting, but the choices are bewildering. Another 92FS might be good, but there are many others on the market that look interesting, too.

 Anyhow, I'd love to hear your recommendations.


----------



## raffy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could I get some recommendations for another handgun? I'm thinking about a second one, but keep going back and forth on all the models.

 What I have now is a full sized H&K USP .45. Great gun and am completely happy with it. In the past, I've owned a S&W Sigma .40 and a Beretta 92FS. The Beretta was great, the Sigma was OK.

 For a second gun, I'd like one chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. I'm not much for compacts or revolvers - I prefer full framed autos. I'm OK with polymer and steel frames and would spend up to $800 or $900.

 I'd use it for target practice at the range and as a backup (maybe primary?) with the USP for home protection. I don't shoot competitively, either. What I want is complete, unquestionable reliability, accuracy and something that I can put 300-400 rounds through at the range without killing my hands.

 Also, there's a chance I'll end up in a state offering CCW permits in the next 12-24 months. I might end up carrying this weapon, too.

 A 1911 is interesting, but the choices are bewildering. Another 92FS might be good, but there are many others on the market that look interesting, too.

 Anyhow, I'd love to hear your recommendations._

 


 If you're looking for something truly full-size like a USP, I would look at the Sig P226 (9mm or 40) or the Sig P220 (.45). Would be a good complement to the polymer USP since these are alloy frames duty-sized handguns.

 I personally have the Sig P229 in 9mm and a HK P30 9mm - both considered compact but to me I consider them almost full size. The P229 is fairly worked up by Gray Guns and has a really wonderful action and reset but the P30 is lighter and has better ergonomics making it a more convenient carry gun. 

 Hope this helps.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyhow, I'd love to hear your recommendations._

 

A few considerations before any specific suggestions. No semiautomatic pistol should be considered reliable for self defense until you have fed at least 200 rounds through it without significant problems. You should have a minimum of four (4) reliable magazines for every semiautomatic pistol you employ in a self defense role. You need a minimum of five to seven hundred rounds of square range drill (not plinking, but structured and preferably monitored drill including malfunctions) before you should consider utlizing a pistol in a self defense role. These are simple facts.

 That said, you have already selected a good caliber in the .45ACP. Adding another caliber means that you now have two lines of everything to keep straight. You seems to have selected and become adapted to double action semiautomatic pistols. Perhaps staying within this genre (not my choice) will also reduce the mechanical complexity of what you have to deal with under duress should all "go in the crapper". Is there another model of .45ACP USP you find interesting which might utilize the same magazines, leather and other accessories?

 In .45ACP, I load 200 grain bullets, as John Moses Browning originally specified. I load a hard cast lead Keith type H&G 68 at @1000FPS for range, practice, light guns and most purposes and a modern jacketed hollowpoint of Hornady XTP design or equivalent at the same velocity for "social interactions". I doubt most well shot targets would note any difference between the two loads, but sometimes you care enough to send the very best. With the 200 grain bullets, recoil (and battering on the guns) is significantly reduced over heavier bullets. With the hard cast lead bullet, there is another significant reduction over the jacketed bullet in recoil. Something about how recoil commences with the ignition of the primer/powder and before the bullet leaves the barrel and the increased force required to drive a jacketed bullet into the lands. Everyone I have demonstrated this difference to has found it real and significant. I don't know about you, but when I'm being beaten on less by the gun, accuracy and speed increase and fatigue decreases.


----------



## wareagle69

In 45 ACP, I find that the single stack 1911 is the easiest platform for me to shoot accurately. The width of the frame, the grip angle and the ease to get high up with the grip just works better for me. I have a couple of full-size HK’s in 45 ACP and I love them both. They are totally reliable, very accurate and I enjoy shooting them, but I have to work harder to obtain the accuracy that comes easier for me with the 1911.

 There is an absolutely unbelievable array of choices in 1911s. I have had excellent experience with Colt, Dan Wesson, S&W and the SigArms GSR in both reliability and accuracy. I’ve never owned a Kimber, but have shot several and they are very good as well. 

 In the Tupperware area, the butt-ugly Glock is ultra reliable, tough as nails and accurate enough for most folks. Price is right compared to some other choices. I carry a Glock 36 everyday. 

 If you are willing to look at 9mm, the Browning Hi-Power is a true classic, and a joy to shoot. Even with the double stack, it fits me, and many others, really well. The biggest complaint with the Hi-Power is the trigger, but that can be remedied by a capable gunsmith for a very reasonable fee. Remove the magazine disconnect while you’re at it.

 Just my $.02, YMMV.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wareagle69* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In 45 ACP, I find that the single stack 1911 is the easiest platform for me to shoot accurately. The width of the frame, the grip angle and the ease to get high up with the grip just works better for me._

 

This is my experience as well. 1911 triggers can be set up to shooter's preferences and made to break "like a glass rod". Re-set indexing of the trigger is perhaps easiest to learn and execute with a single action trigger. And there are never two different trigger pulls on the same pistol.

 Old model Kimbers remain my preference. With the II series (and beyond), Kimber's designers began to believe they knew better than John Moses Browning about pistol design on the Government Model of 1911. They did not and do not.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could I get some recommendations for another handgun? I'm thinking about a second one, but keep going back and forth on all the models.

 What I have now is a full sized H&K USP .45. Great gun and am completely happy with it. In the past, I've owned a S&W Sigma .40 and a Beretta 92FS. The Beretta was great, the Sigma was OK.

 <SNIP>

 Anyhow, I'd love to hear your recommendations._

 

You don't indicate if there is a reason you don't want another USP, but I'll say I love all three of mine. Well, the .40 has more bite than I would like, but I love both the HK .45 and the 9mm. In fact, much as I like the .45, I might prefer the 9mm. And at the range, I am better with it at 25 yards than I am with the .45. For home defense, the .45 is a no-brainer, of course.


----------



## Old Pa




----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_




_

 

Very nice sight. Only issue I've had with mine is the fiddly little adjustment cap got lost and it's been a big round of phone tag to get a replacement from Aimpoint.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice sight. Only issue I've had with mine is the fiddly little adjustment cap got lost and it's been a big round of phone tag to get a replacement from Aimpoint._

 

Noted. Memo to self: keep friggin' cap screwed on tight.


----------



## Duke309

Just thought I'd show you guys the piece I bought a couple of months ago. Shoots like a dream. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Its a springfield 1911 loaded in stainless steel.


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## Uncle Erik

Duke309 - that's beautiful! How do you like shooting it?

 Funny you posted that because last Saturday I went and picked up SA's Mil-Spec 1911. Thanks to the State of California, I have to "cool off" until next Tuesday. Shame, since I wanted to put holes in paper this weekend.

 Does anyone know of any good books, websites, forums, or anything else where you can learn more about the 1911? The more I look, the more there seems to be to learn. I haven't shot it yet, but it's a terrific fit for my hand and I liked it more than any other gun I handled at the shop. I'd like to learn more and might pick up another.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know of any good books, websites, forums, or anything else where you can learn more about the 1911? The more I look, the more there seems to be to learn. I haven't shot it yet, but it's a terrific fit for my hand and I liked it more than any other gun I handled at the shop. I'd like to learn more and might pick up another._

 

There are at least two excellent 1911 forums:

The M1911 Pistols Organization

 and

1911Forum - Powered by vBulletin

 I myself have a Kimber Custom Target II on order which should be here any day. I can't wait. I've already ordered a set of Esmeralda's and a magwell for it.


----------



## Duke309

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Duke309 - that's beautiful! How do you like shooting it?

 Funny you posted that because last Saturday I went and picked up SA's Mil-Spec 1911. Thanks to the State of California, I have to "cool off" until next Tuesday. Shame, since I wanted to put holes in paper this weekend.

 Does anyone know of any good books, websites, forums, or anything else where you can learn more about the 1911? The more I look, the more there seems to be to learn. I haven't shot it yet, but it's a terrific fit for my hand and I liked it more than any other gun I handled at the shop. I'd like to learn more and might pick up another._

 

I've put nearly 1000 rounds through it so far, no problems at all. Shoots like a dream, it is really accurate too. I just got a couple 8 round chip mccormick mags for it, which means I really got to get to the range next weekend and try em out.


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## mrarroyo

That 1911 is just beautiful! I would love to pick up a National Match model, but they are pricey.


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## csommers

Springfield Loaded parkerized
 Swapped out the guide rod/plug and added a new mainspring housing
 Love it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Going to pick up a CZ 75 PCR Monday from my FFL


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## number1sixerfan

The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range.


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## plaidplatypus

I wouldn't like spending much range time with a 1911, too much kick for me.


----------



## csommers

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range._

 

I think they are one of the better first handguns you can get. They are easy to shoot (weight helps with recoil), very easy to upgrade/fieldstrip (and learn how a firearm works), and they make great concealed carry weapons as well as home defense, plus they are one of the safest firearms out there.
 Check out m1911.org for a ton of info on various brands and also holsters etc.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Only downside is ammo cost is fairly high unless you buy bulk

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *plaidplatypus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't like spending much range time with a 1911, too much kick for me._

 

I've shot 9, 40, 45: and 45 is the lowest recoil I've felt. 40 is VERY snappy, 9 is a little less, an 45 is more of a push back than up. If you tried a 45 in a polymer frame...then yea thats the problem, there is no weight to the gun.
 I tried my friends HK in 45 vs. my 1911 and the recoil was slightly less on my 1911 due to more weight, and I'm not a big guy at all 5'8 165
 It all depends on the user, so make sure you can testfire one first


----------



## IceClass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csommers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Going to pick up a CZ 75 PCR Monday from my FFL



_

 

I've got my eye on one of those.
 Do be sure to let us know how she works out.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range._

 

I had a discussion with someone earlier in this thread and I don't remember if it was you? How much experience do you have with guns? Handguns?

 If you're a complete beginniner, I'd suggest a .357 revolver built on a medium-sized frame (I like S&W's 686-Plus). You can start by shooting light .38 special wadcutters and work your way up to full house .357 magnums.

 For someone who has no experience with handguns, I don't know that I'd recommend a 1911 as the first purchase. It's a little trickier to handle than a revolver and the .45 ACP kicks just a little bit too much for a beginner.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range._

 

No, a well made reliable Model 1911 in .45ACP would never be a bad purchase. However, think 200 gr. hardcast lead for practice. But buying a 1911 first might be premature. I would suggest a first purchase of another "nonregettable" firearm; a well designed semi-automatic .22LR pistol. Of those currently available, a Ruger with six inch barrel and adjustable sights epitomizes the genre. Since, Huntsmen, Challengers, Woodsmen and similar are now available only used. Shoot cheap and stress free. Practice all marksmanship skills. An excellent pistol you will keep forever.

 Revolver suggestions are now outliving their usefulness. .357RemMag through pistols with six inch barrels are nasty and flinch productive. The recoil of .35 caliber magnums is much sharper/twisting than the .45ACP. Revolver skills are special and don't transfer universally to pistols.

 BTW, leftnose, I was on that movie set while Blues Bros. was filmed. Belushi was a client.


----------



## plaidplatypus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csommers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've shot 9, 40, 45: and 45 is the lowest recoil I've felt. 40 is VERY snappy, 9 is a little less, an 45 is more of a push back than up. If you tried a 45 in a polymer frame...then yea thats the problem, there is no weight to the gun.
 I tried my friends HK in 45 vs. my 1911 and the recoil was slightly less on my 1911 due to more weight, and I'm not a big guy at all 5'8 165
 It all depends on the user, so make sure you can testfire one first_

 

It was whatever the service pistol was before the M9. The M9 is a bit big for my little hands and I can't thumb the slide release but I really can't complain about the recoil.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range._

 

Why don't you rent one at a range first? If you haven't shot before, sign up for a safety/instruction course and rent a 1911 to see how you like it.

 I've shot rifles and shotguns since I was a kid (my grandfather took me out for the first time when I was five), but hadn't shot many handguns until I was 20, when I picked up a Beretta 92FS. A full frame 9mm doesn't have much recoil, is accurate, the ammo is reasonable, they're accurate, and they're good for defense. They're a good all-around handgun. If I had to start over again, I'd probably go with another full frame 9mm as a first handgun. Also, one thing about the 1911 is that the safety doesn't decock the hammer - that's a feature I've gotten used to and like on the other guns I own. You don't need it, but I found it nice to have.

 I did pick up my new 1911 this morning, then somehing terrible happened. The phone rang and they wanted me in at the office. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So, here I sit 20 floors up with a new gun in the trunk. The range will be closed when I get out of here and I have to be in tomorrow, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe next weekend I can wring it out. I did get a brief opportunity to field strip it in the parking garage - Springfield did a nice job with these. It's well put together and nicely finished. I hope it shoots as good as it looks.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 1911 is such a beautiful handgun. I have read up on it, and I think that it will be my first purchase. Any reason why it would be a bad first? The purpose is for home security and use at the range._

 

If you don't own any firearms or have much experience with them, I wouldn't recommend a 1911 for a first purchase. Since .45 ACP isn't a common service caliber, ammunition for it is generally 50% more expensive than for 9 mm and .40 S&W and getting enough practice in for competence would be significantly more expensive. Old Pa has it right, a .22LR semi automatic target pistol would be a better purchase for a new shooter.

 If home security is a priority, it would be much faster and cheaper to get to a reasonable level of competence on a pump action shotgun like a Remington 870 than on a pistol. Not to mention that a pump gun is a far more effective weapon than any pistol.

 Other issue with the 1911 is that reliability can be hit or miss. I've never had a reliability issue with any polymer service pistol that I've purchased, but about half of the 1911s have either had to return to the manufacturer for teething issues or required tweaking to function. The 1911 just wasn't designed for modern manufacturing methods and it often shows.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you rent one at a range first? If you haven't shot before, sign up for a safety/instruction course and rent a 1911 to see how you like it._

 

I go to my range often, but they do not have a 1911 for rent. Maybe if I did an instruction course, they would then allow me to rent one, but for general use on the range I don't believe they have one(at least I never saw it in the rental display case). I will double check.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't own any firearms or have much experience with them, I wouldn't recommend a 1911 for a first purchase. Since .45 ACP isn't a common service caliber, ammunition for it is generally 50% more expensive than for 9 mm and .40 S&W and getting enough practice in for competence would be significantly more expensive. Old Pa has it right, a .22LR semi automatic target pistol would be a better purchase for a new shooter.

 If home security is a priority, it would be much faster and cheaper to get to a reasonable level of competence on a pump action shotgun like a Remington 870 than on a pistol. Not to mention that a pump gun is a far more effective weapon than any pistol._

 

Thanks for the info. In regards to the shotgun, I understand that it would be a better home protection gun, but I use at the range is also a top factor as this is starting to become a hobby. So I would like a handgun that can be relatively good for both. 

 I would just keep renting, but the prices are unbelievable due to the ammo and renting of the gun. I have gone to the range considerably, but I have not owned any guns before. I will look at the other models people have suggested, got a lot of reading to do.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a discussion with someone earlier in this thread and I don't remember if it was you? How much experience do you have with guns? Handguns?

 If you're a complete beginniner, I'd suggest a .357 revolver built on a medium-sized frame (I like S&W's 686-Plus). You can start by shooting light .38 special wadcutters and work your way up to full house .357 magnums.

 For someone who has no experience with handguns, I don't know that I'd recommend a 1911 as the first purchase. It's a little trickier to handle than a revolver and the .45 ACP kicks just a little bit too much for a beginner._

 

Thanks for the reply, it may have been me. I have currently gotten use to shooting a S&W .38 special revolver and .22 rimfire ruger, but I have learned that they are not good fits for me. I rented them over and over to get used to shooting the same gun to work on target practice. Honestly, I found them a bit boring...not sure if that makes sense. But it seems that everyone is in agreement that the 1911 probably isn't the best purchase.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csommers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've shot 9, 40, 45: and 45 is the lowest recoil I've felt. 40 is VERY snappy, 9 is a little less, an 45 is more of a push back than up._

 

Check the SAAMI pressure standards for the three cartridges and you will understand more of what you only now perceive.


----------



## leftnose

One gun that you might consider is a Sig 226/229 in .40. They're a little on the expensive side (but compare to Springfield Loaded or Kimber) but if you buy one in .40, you can get an aftermarket 9mm barrel and shoot relatively cheaply.

 If you have no intentions of CC, get the 226 and call it a day. You won't find a better defensive pistol on the market and the versatility of the second barrel will let you practice with it which is the most important aspect of self-defense gun ownership.

 I think one thing has gotten lost in this discussion: the 1911 is an excellent pistol. After you have one that is reliable and you really know how to handle it, it may be the best pistol on Earth but those two conditions are truly paramount. I personally have four pistols (S&W 617, 686-Plus, Kimber Custom Target II, Sig 226 SCT) and the 1911 is my favorite to shoot.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One gun that you might consider is a Sig 226/229 in .40. They're a little on the expensive side (but compare to Springfield Loaded or Kimber) but if you buy one in .40, you can get an aftermarket 9mm barrel and shoot relatively cheaply.

 If you have no intentions of CC, get the 226 and call it a day. You won't find a better defensive pistol on the market and the versatility of the second barrel will let you practice with it which is the most important aspect of self-defense gun ownership.

 I think one thing has gotten lost in this discussion: the 1911 is an excellent pistol. After you have one that is reliable and you really know how to handle it, it may be the best pistol on Earth but those two conditions are truly paramount. I personally have four pistols (S&W 617, 686-Plus, Kimber Custom Target II, Sig 226 SCT) and the 1911 is my favorite to shoot._

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I have decided to try and spend as much time at the range in order to try out as many as possible. For the past few months, I have simply used the same two guns as I previously mentioned. 

 I will try and use the 1911, the Sig 226 and some of the HK USP models. Then I will determine what I want to go with.


----------



## csommers

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check the SAAMI pressure standards for the three cartridges and you will understand more of what you only now perceive._

 

Yea I know that, I was just pointing it out in less technical terms. Plus there is an old wives tale that 45 is a ridiculously recoil heavy caliber...an its not.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If the 12 year old girl I saw at the range on Friday can fire a Kimber easily then I'm 99% sure everyone on this forum can as well.

 As for the decocker discussion: the 1911 wasn't meant to have one, as it is meant to be used in condition 1, not 2; plus its SA only so there is no point to one.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, a well made reliable Model 1911 in .45ACP would never be a bad purchase. However, think 200 gr. hardcast lead for practice. But buying a 1911 first might be premature. I would suggest a first purchase of another "nonregettable" firearm; a well designed semi-automatic .22LR pistol. Of those currently available, a Ruger with six inch barrel and adjustable sights epitomizes the genre. Since, Huntsmen, Challengers, Woodsmen and similar are now available only used. Shoot cheap and stress free. Practice all marksmanship skills. An excellent pistol you will keep forever.

 Revolver suggestions are now outliving their usefulness. .357RemMag through pistols with six inch barrels are nasty and flinch productive. The recoil of .35 caliber magnums is much sharper/twisting than the .45ACP. Revolver skills are special and don't transfer universally to pistols.

 BTW, leftnose, I was on that movie set while Blues Bros. was filmed. Belushi was a client._

 

I agree, before you get a 1911 45 acp get a 22lr to get you started. And among all the 22lr I would suggest the Ruger 22/45.


----------



## csommers

Whatever handgun you get, as long as the model permits, dry fire the bejesus out of it and practice proper grip techniques. Try and take a few classes as well if funds allow


----------



## boomana

How strange I've missed this thread in all my time here. Anyway, it was nice catching up on all the posts here. 

 My current stash:

 M&P 9c (great edc)
 Wison KZ-45 (soon to be sold)
 Les Baer Xtreme Tactical

 and my newest baby:






 Ted Yost customized Browning Hi-Power. Sorry for the cell phone pic. It was taken at the SHOT show, where I first fell in love with it. It's waiting for me now in TN (long story), but I'm pretty excited to get my hands on it.

 Re 1911s, the 1911 was my first gun purchase, and the first right gun for me, but I'd shot a variety of models and calibers before deciding. I love 1911s, and .45 is my favorite caliber to shoot, depending on the gun, but I found having a 9mm for the range helps keep me in practice with the price of ammo these days.


----------



## leftnose

Beautiful pistol! Not sure how much I like the beavertail on the HP (would have to see it in person) but I wouldn't mind owning one of those!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How strange I've missed this thread in all my time here._

 

I was wondering when you would show up here, Vicki. Welcome. I guess all my secrets are now yours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 The Model 1935 in the lower left corner was a short FN production run in the early 90s for a Utah action shooting club. It has stock longer barrel with a clamp on comp weight (non-ported). We removed the disconnector and went to a lighter mainspring to clean up the trigger and then added a stock ambi safety as I am wronghanded. It has, perhaps, the crudest adjustable rear sight I have ever seen. Other than that, the comp works and it shoots better than I do.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ted Yost customized Browning Hi-Power. Sorry for the cell phone pic. It was taken at the SHOT show, where I first fell in love with it._

 

I went in either 04' or 05'. I'm bad with time. Anyway, never again. Absolute over load. CES is just barely worse. 

 Old Pa, you're a barrister, right? I need a revocable trust. My CLEO is a weenie. What is your opinion: should I have this done by a live lawyer or can it be done, reliably, with online documents.


----------



## iriverdude

Guns don't kill people, bullets do 

  Quote:


 dry fire the bejesus 
 

I thought it's bad to dry fire a gun? Are there any pistols that'll break your wrist?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, you're a barrister, right? I need a revocable trust. My CLEO is a weenie. What is your opinion: should I have this done by a live lawyer or can it be done, reliably, with online documents._

 

That depends. If you understand revocable trusts within the statutory limitations of where ever you wish for it to have legal effect, then it could probably be drafted successfully on the back of a cocktail napkin. Most of the on-line legal forms for trusts that I have seen wind up trying to put square pegs into round holes. And if you want to know all your options and want the best fit to your needs (including any necessary tax planning), then competent legal assistance for where ever you are located is essential.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought it's bad to dry fire a gun? Are there any pistols that'll break your wrist?_

 

Depends on the gun. Even if the gun isn't designed for dry firing, the use of snap caps usually mitigates the risks.

 Many .22 don't have a firing pin stop and allow the firing pin to impact the barrel when dry firing. This will peen and shorten the firing pin until it's no longer reliable. The popular Ruger Mark III and 10/22 are notable exceptions.

 Some centerfire guns are known to have fragile firing pins which dry firing will eventually break. Not a huge issue on range guns since firing pins can be replaced. The CZ-52 is famous for this. This is also a relatively minor issue for revolvers with hammer mounted firing pins.

 Oh yeah, cap and ball guns. Don't dry fire them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 As for pistols that will break your wrist, unlikely. There's a bit of a liability issue there... I guess you could get a custom Thompson Contender barrel in .700 NE if you wanted to try though.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wondering when you would show up here, Vicki. Welcome. I guess all my secrets are now yours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And very nice secrets you have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was interested in CZs for a bit, but my finger couldn't reach the trigger, even with the Rami.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went in either 04' or 05'. I'm bad with time. Anyway, never again. Absolute over load. CES is just barely worse. _

 

I had fun, but probably due to the folks I was hanging out with, friends of Mexican Dragon. I bought the Yost Browning Hi-Power because not only is it a gorgeous gun that fit my hand like no other, but also because Ted only makes one a year, and that one for the show. It's doubtful I'll ever have the chance again.

 iriverdude, how could a pistol break your wrist? I suppose if you beat your wrist with one, you could do the job. If interested, I'd suggest using a stainless model, one with some heft that would require fewer blows, unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing. Go for it.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are there any pistols that'll break your wrist?_

 

First, develop osteoperosis . . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 And very nice secrets you have 
 

Yup, Vicki, innoculating myself against a gunshow involves wading through the collected excess in the "quartermaster's room" the evening before. Not pretty, but effective.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old Pa, you're a barrister, right? I need a revocable trust. My CLEO is a weenie. What is your opinion: should I have this done by a live lawyer or can it be done, reliably, with online documents._

 

Me too - I specialized in trusts and estates then picked up another degree in accounting, and somehow ended up in corporate litigation. Anyhow, I agree with Old Pa. Trust agreements can be straightforward, but the devil is in funding trusts and dealing with tax complications. I'd recommend staying away from "trust mill" operations, too. You'll notice them giving lectures at retirement homes and having flat rate packages. The best bet are smaller firms and solos that specialize in estate planning.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Me too - I specialized in trusts and estates then picked up another degree in accounting, and somehow ended up in corporate litigation. Anyhow, I agree with Old Pa. Trust agreements can be straightforward, but the devil is in funding trusts and dealing with tax complications. I'd recommend staying away from "trust mill" operations, too. You'll notice them giving lectures at retirement homes and having flat rate packages. The best bet are smaller firms and solos that specialize in estate planning._

 

Oh, I know. I thought about it, about 45 seconds after I hit Submit. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I spoke with two friends that are (Napoleonic) lawyers - one maritime and one who has basically taken leave from society. Neither were much help. I got a quote from another for $500. Not bad, but the suppressor itself will only cost me ~$950 with the NFA tax stamp. 

 My problem, as usual, is trying to do any legal sleuthing on the "national" internet. This Napoleonic code mess in Louisiana makes lots of archived advice unreliable. 

 Otherwise, this would be the most basic (I assume) trust in creation to set up. I would be the settlor, trustee, and the beneficiary. The _estate_ would consist of one solitary NFA Class III item.

 But thank you and Old Pa. I'm going to see if I can bother some other peripheral friends that happen to be attorneys.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My problem, as usual, is trying to do any legal sleuthing on the "national" internet. This Napoleonic code mess in Louisiana makes lots of archived advice unreliable._

 

So the purpose of the trust is to be the owner of the suppressor? Is there a Louisiana state law forbidding ownership/possession of suppressors by private citizens? You realize that a trust established for an illegal purpose would be void in most jurisdictions?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the purpose of the trust is to be the owner of the suppressor? Is there a Louisiana state law forbidding ownership/possession of suppressors by private citizens? You realize that a trust established for an illegal purpose would be void in most jurisdictions?_

 

Yes, the trust is for the suppressor. I'm not one to mess with Federal law. It's completely legal here, Pa, as well creating a trust to avoid the need of a signature from a CLEO on BATF forms. 

 Here's some more info from a law office in PA:
http://blog.princelaw.com/gun-trusts-blog


----------



## number1sixerfan

Just got back from the range, shot 100 rounds or so with a Glock 30. I like shooting at the range, but some people just make me a bit anxious. The guys next too me were so happy and loud it just had me on edge. At one point, one of them actually had their pistol pointed in my direction as they were talking....I've got to find out when it is not crowded at that place...you guys ever have to deal with stuff like this?

 Anyways, I really liked shooting the .45 ACP. Had good control and the recoil felt like nothing. The bummer was the ammo, horrendously expensive. lol


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyways, I really liked shooting the .45 ACP. Had good control and the recoil felt like nothing. The bummer was the ammo, horrendously expensive. lol_

 

WalMart usually had "party packs" of 200 rounds of Winchester .45ACP 230 grain FMJ for not so much. If you do not reload, you can still pick up and bag your brass to sell at a gun show as "once fired". Going rate for once fired .45ACP can be up to $0.10/piece. Makes shooting a little cheaper.


----------



## Uncle Erik

I've got some 1911 teething problems. Took the Springfield Mil-Spec to the range today and it had trouble feeding new rounds. Every 7-8 rounds, one would fail to feed and/or chamber completely. I used reloads from the range and put approximately 100 rounds through it.

 So, does it need a trip to the pistolsmith for a tuneup? I *do* like it otherwise. It's a natural pointer, feels great in the hand, recoil and muzzle flip are not a problem, the safety doesn't bite, and I found it very accurate. If it fed every time, I'd be enthralled. What do you guys think?

 Also, I got a recommendation for a pistolsmith named Alan Tanaka who's just a few miles from me. Has anyone heard of him?

 The H&K USP .45 came along, too. It remains accurateand reliable, but I prefer the recoil and handling of the 1911.

 Sam, any chance you could set up a corporation to hold that for you? Those can be simpler and are an easier DIY proposition. Also, you could use a corporation to get yourself a few tax breaks.


----------



## leftnose

Shoot 250-500 rounds of factory hardball through your 1911 before having anything done to it. If youre problems persists through that period, take it to a *good* 'smith and describe the problems you're having.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WalMart usually had "party packs" of 200 rounds of Winchester .45ACP 230 grain FMJ for not so much. If you do not reload, you can still pick up and bag your brass to sell at a gun show as "once fired". Going rate for once fired .45ACP can be up to $0.10/piece. Makes shooting a little cheaper._

 

Thanks for the tip, I've been reading up on the ammo and indeed it seems like Walmart has been a great option for a lot of people. Now I just need to figure out which platform and model I want to go with. The only thing about the Glocks I don't like is the lack of a thumb safety. I understand that they have passive safety innovations, but for some reason I think I would be more comfortable with a thumb safety.

 I have plenty of time to read though, between this, a guitar amp, and the hd800s I have plenty saving to do. lol


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got some 1911 teething problems. Took the Springfield Mil-Spec to the range today and it had trouble feeding new rounds. Every 7-8 rounds, one would fail to feed and/or chamber completely. I used reloads from the range and put approximately 100 rounds through it._

 

I'd defiantly try some factory stuff (Winchester White Box) before you go any further. Reloads can be fine, but you don't know how much care and what components are going into range reloads. Range brass can get put through a lot. The brass can easily be out of spec it they don't take the time the check with a case gauge or trim to proper length. 

  Quote:


 Sam, any chance you could set up a corporation to hold that for you? Those can be simpler and are an easier DIY proposition. Also, you could use a corporation to get yourself a few tax breaks. 
 

Corporations will work, but I'm a little concerned about the upkeep on one. A trust would be maintenance free. Really, I have not looked into a corps benefits, but I will. I'm seeing an estate attorney on Tues. I'll ask more about it then. Thanks.


 Edit: I may have misunderstood? Did you mean new, factory rounds fed unreliably and reloads worked without issue.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got some 1911 teething problems. Took the Springfield Mil-Spec to the range today and it had trouble feeding new rounds. Every 7-8 rounds, one would fail to feed and/or chamber completely. I used reloads from the range and put approximately 100 rounds through it._

 

What kind of "failure to feed" problems with what kind of ammunition? If it's new, did you take it apart, clean off the packing lubricant and then re-assemble with good quality synthetic lubricants appropriately applied; they will aid the break-in process. Is the "failure to feed" the same with all magazines. You should have at least half a dozen magazines with a single-stack and they need to have machining/shipping/storage lubricants/protectants removed as well. I favor McCormick and Wilson for the 1911.

 Springfield Armory used to make good tight 1911s; I haven't had much experience with them since discovering Kimbers. I would first take off the top end and barrel, clean it with good quality general solvent and a toothbrush, dry it and blow it out with compressed air, and then re-assemble it with light lube like LPS in the slide locking lugs, one drop long each of the rails, a drop on the link pivots, and maybe a drop on the back center of the slide where it bears over the hammer. Then continue to break-in cycle of 200 rounds with new commercial 230 gr FMJ .45ACP.


----------



## boomzilla

number1sixerfan;5421181 said:
			
		

> Just got back from the range, shot 100 rounds or so with a Glock 30. I like shooting at the range, but some people just make me a bit anxious. The guys next too me were so happy and loud it just had me on edge. At one point, one of them actually had their pistol pointed in my direction as they were talking....I've got to find out when it is not crowded at that place...you guys ever have to deal with stuff like this?
> ]
> 
> as a rangemaster, i deal with that kind of behavior daily...just remember, range safety is everyone's responsibility...if you see it, speak up, knuckleheads need reminding at times that they are endangering others...
> most of the time, they are just "new guys" & need to know how we play on ranges...when possible, a easygoing approach will build our community of shooters, & possibly you will make new friends out of the encounter...g


----------



## mrarroyo

Sometimes I see individuals doing so. I get the range master to handle it. If approached by anyone else these yo-yo's get aggressive and the last thing I need is an altercation at a range. Everyone looses!


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes I see individuals doing so. I get the range master to handle it. If approached by anyone else these yo-yo's get aggressive and the last thing I need is an altercation at a range. Everyone looses!_

 

Yup, some people are into firearms because they are personally fearful. Fearfulness can quickly lead to anger and misperception of a safety suggestion as a provocation. The rangemaster is in charge of those corrections anyway, and some rangemasters can be jealous of their perogative in that.

 Mostly these days I shoot on a private club range weekday mornings. Wind is generally lowest before the heating of the day and sun angle best for my purposes. I get out and back before anybody else is up and mostly nobody notices that I have even been gone. The perfect sneak.


----------



## Laptopia

Next purchase.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Robert Linthicum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Next purchase._

 

I shot an older one of those a few weeks ago but it had wooden target grips. It was very nice.


----------



## boomzilla

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes I see individuals doing so. I get the range master to handle it. If approached by anyone else these yo-yo's get aggressive and the last thing I need is an altercation at a range. Everyone looses!_

 

i know it is hard, but an easy approach can win a friend...i only jump in with both feet when the situation is truly dangerous, & i'm looking to see what kind of person we are dealing with...a good guy gets to stay & play...most reasonable people will listen & play by range rules, a quick mention can be respected...i've taught my members how to do this & also how to help out the new guys...most of the dumb behavior on ranges come from the new guys, & most of them really want to do good, help them do good...when you get the certified knucklehead, back off...those are the types that want to re establish dominance, get the rangemaster at that point...most of those types get to go home...g


----------



## wareagle69

Took my new Savage 12 F/TR for it’s first outing and am very happy with the initial results. After 3 sighters to dial in the scope, a very decent (for me) 10 round group. Pulled #7 a bit, but this baby is a shooter. These were at 200 yards using Federal Gold Metal SMK 168 HPBT. Gotta play with some handloads next time out.

 It is like carrying an artillery piece tipping the scale right at 15 pounds with the Zeiss Conquest 6.5 – 20 x 50mm mounted. But this is not a hunting rig, so what the hell.


----------



## leftnose

Here's my newest toy:






 SIG 226 SCT in 9mm. That isn't rust on the one grip screw. It's the preservative; I still need to do a little cleaning. The birthdate on the box: Feb. 10, 2009. Doesn't get a whole lot newer than that! I was really jumping back and forth between this and the 229 SCT and I'm glad I got the full size. There's no CCW in IL and the full size grip is just the perfect size for my hand.

 Probably won't get a chance to shoot it until next week, though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On another note, I've always hated the layouts where the user info is above the post. Makes for a lot of scrolling. If a moderator reads this, can we be given the option for the old style with the user info on the left. Thanks!


----------



## marvin

Well, looks like I was wrong on EBR prices. Not sure they'll ever fall now.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, looks like I was wrong on EBR prices. Not sure they'll ever fall now._

 

Why you say that, Marvin?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why you say that, Marvin?_

 

Holder ran his mouth and confirmed that Obama will push a new AWB. Given the political situation, it's a done deal as soon as they get the ball rolling.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Holder ran his mouth and confirmed that Obama will push a new AWB. Given the political situation, it's a done deal as soon as they get the ball rolling._

 

Do you have a source on this? Trust me that I don't doubt what you're saying but I'd like to read more about it.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have a source on this? Trust me that I don't doubt what you're saying but I'd like to read more about it._

 


ABC News: Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, looks like I was wrong on EBR prices. Not sure they'll ever fall now._

 

 Looks like Holder might have spoke out of turn. The White House and Pelosi wouldn't back him up (it's not the right time). I think it's much more likely to happen after the first round of senate elections. However, the spectre of the ban will keep EBR prices high. 

 At least I hope that's the way it goes. I have a .223 suppressor on order. I have access to a friend's family's property. There is an ideal FREE 800 yard "range" with a near perfect natural back stop. His family and others live on the front of the property, so he shoots suppressed. I will have to as well out of courtesy. The process for owning the suppressor is going to take several months. It would be interesting to see what happens if a ban went in while my form 4 is out for approval. I will also need one for .308.


----------



## Duke309

If there were better ranges around where I live, I would be able to justify a rifle collection. I guess my wallet is thankful for this.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duke309* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If there were better ranges around where I live, I would be able to justify a rifle collection._

 

You've got the right idea; rifles are meant to be shot. Thirty years ago, living in Chicago, I found myself in a similar situation. So I moved up to the Northwoods and have been regularly shooting rifles at long range ever since.


----------



## csommers

Just saw that Sig is making the 228 available again for civies. Gonna go grab me one this week.


----------



## leftnose

They do have rails so they aren't quite the classic 228.

 SIG also just produced a run of M11s (military version of the 228) and released the over run to the public. Be careful which one you pick up. The M11 overrun have had the military markings struck from the frame and have not been refinished. The 228 comes as you would expect, fully finished.


----------



## leftnose

Here's my newest toy that I just picked up. After a 12 week wait for it to arrive from the factory, I'm pretty happy. It's a Kimber Custom Target II. I've replaced the factory grips with Esmeralda Cocobolo's and the stock, plastic mainspring housing with a steel Kimber unit with magwell.





















 That's a stock 7 round Kimber mag in the gun now. It needs an extended base pad to work with the magwell but I've also got a few Tripp 8-round magazines (and a 10-rounder) that will see the most use.


----------



## Usagi

Aluminum housing?


----------



## leftnose

Sorry. I'm not sure what you are asking. The housing that comes on the gun from the factory is made of plastic. The one that I installed with the magwell is made of steel.


----------



## Usagi

Sorry, I meant the frame and slide.


----------



## leftnose

Nope. All steel.


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope. All steel._

 

NICE !!!!


----------



## number1sixerfan

What makes the Kimber 1911's stand out from SA's and others? I've read a lot on various forums, and it seems like the consensus is that Kimber is noted for the highest quality.


----------



## leftnose

I think that, as long as you compare the models of equivalent prices, they're all about the same. Don't compare a Kimber to a GI or mil-spec Springfield. Compare it to a Loaded Springfield. If you do that, they're the same. 

 The one area where Kimber does stand out is that all the major components are US made. Springfield sources a lot of its frames from Brazil. Now I personally have no problems with imported goods or guns (and Brazil certainly has a fine armaments industry) but it is something that many people try to avoid.

 I picked Kimber because they had a relative entry level gun with a blued finish and adjustable sights. I would have had to go stainless if I wanted a Springfield (Kimber also make a stainless model of my gun).

 Kimber doesn't hold a candle to the semi-custom makers like Baer, Brown, Wilson or Nighthawk, though. Many of the small parts on a Kimber (ejector, extractor, slide stop) are MIM where as the semi-custom makers all use machined parts. I've already got my eyes on a stainless or hard chrome Baer TRS.


----------



## csommers

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that, as long as you compare the models of equivalent prices, they're all about the same. Don't compare a Kimber to a GI or mil-spec Springfield. Compare it to a Loaded Springfield. If you do that, they're the same. 

 The one area where Kimber does stand out is that all the major components are US made. Springfield sources a lot of its frames from Brazil. Now I personally have no problems with imported goods or guns (and Brazil certainly has a fine armaments industry) but it is something that many people try to avoid.

 I picked Kimber because they had a relative entry level gun with a blued finish and adjustable sights. I would have had to go stainless if I wanted a Springfield (Kimber also make a stainless model of my gun).

 Kimber doesn't hold a candle to the semi-custom makers like Baer, Brown, Wilson or Nighthawk, though. Many of the small parts on a Kimber (ejector, extractor, slide stop) are MIM where as the semi-custom makers all use machined parts. I've already got my eyes on a stainless or hard chrome Baer TRS._

 

I went through much the same decisions as you did when picking a 1911. Kimber an SA both produce top notch firearms, so its really just up to how they look to you.
 Brazil isn't much of a problem, IMBEL is one of the best armories out there. With the loaded models the vast majority are still pieced together in the US.

 I'm looking into Baer's too, they make beautiful 1911s


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kimber doesn't hold a candle to the semi-custom makers like Baer, Brown, Wilson or Nighthawk, though. Many of the small parts on a Kimber (ejector, extractor, slide stop) are MIM where as the semi-custom makers all use machined parts._

 

I would differ from this opinion, especially regarding the older first series Kimbers which had machined guts. All Kimbers I have had and shot were as accurate and reliable as any of the semi-custom and custom makers. My target and match Kimbers shoot little bitty groups all day long. And on the new series Kimbers, it is no problem to swap out any MIM parts which spit up with quality CAD/CAM parts. Baer/Brown/Wilson/Nighthawk are largely matters of ego. I can't develop any lust for them. Nice guns, but lots of people own Porches, too. Learn how to shoot.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would differ from this opinion, especially regarding the older first series Kimbers which had machined guts. All Kimbers I have had and shot were as accurate and reliable as any of the semi-custom and custom makers. My target and match Kimbers shoot little bitty groups all day long. And on the new series Kimbers, it is no problem to swap out any MIM parts which spit up with quality CAD/CAM parts. Baer/Brown/Wilson/Nighthawk are largely matters of ego. I can't develop any lust for them. Nice guns, but lots of people own Porches, too. Learn how to shoot._

 

Fair enough, Old Pa. It seems we have fairly different opinions when it comes to firearms. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I actually don't have enough of a problem with MIM parts to even bother to change them until they break (which, as you say, won't necessarily break before a machined part would).

 While I mention a TRS above, I waiver between a TRS and a Monolith. The Mono is just plain sexy. While this one has had work done to it after it left Baer, it's a pretty damn nice pistol. It belongs to a poster on 1911.com.
















 and you just have to love guns with character (owned by another 1911.com poster)


----------



## TheMarchingMule

^ That's the first time I've ever seen a straight trigger.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ That's the first time I've ever seen a straight trigger._

 

That is interesting, isn't it? It seems to be a growing trend. S&W is even offering it on a couple of their 1911s: Product: Model SW1911 DK Pistol. For me, that's would be a definite try before buy.

 The only thing I don't like about that Monolith above is the undercut trigger guard. I prefer the looks of a standard trigger guard and my hands are big enough that the grip safety is what prevents a higher hold, not the trigger guard, so it's an unnecessary mod for me as well.


----------



## CrazyRay

I won’t leave home without it!


----------



## Uncle Erik

First, thank you all for the advice on the 1911. I've stripped and cleaned it, but haven't been able to find time to get back to the range. Hopefully, a good cleaning and some factory ammo will get it broken in and shooting well.

 Also, the great State of California is raising sales tax and (I think) other fees on 4/1/09, so I decided to pay another visit to the gun store to see if they had anything interesting. They had just gotten in a shipment of used Sig-Sauer P6s for $419. I ran a few searches on it, and while you can find them for a little less online, it would cost more than $419 to import one. I liked the feel and operation, so I bit on one. It has some light holster wear, but looks to be in excellent shape otherwise and appears to have been shot very little.

 I can't pick it up until after 4/8/09 (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), but am eager to take it to the range. The only complaint I've read is over the trigger pull, but it didn't seem that bad to me.

 Anyhow, I don't know if this is true or not, but they said that this is from the last shipment of P6s to the US. If anyone is looking for a good deal on a Sig, it might be a good idea to track one down. I can't quite recommend it since I haven't shot it, but thought everyone should know there's a good deal on a Sig out there.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First, thank you all for the advice on the 1911 . . ._

 

If there are magazines available, you will also want to stock up on those. Three per pistol is a minimum, and I am much more comfortable with ten (10) per pistol (although I have a number of pistols which share the same magazines, ie. for my eight Model 1911s, I do not have 80 magazines 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Make sure they all work reliably early on when they are still available and can be traded in (if dysfunctional).


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CrazyRay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won’t leave home without it!




_

 

Wow!!! Fully loaded... I'll *stay home* with it... if it was mine.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If there are magazines available, you will also want to stock up on those. Three per pistol is a minimum, and I am much more comfortable with ten (10) per pistol (although I have a number of pistols which share the same magazines, ie. for my eight Model 1911s, I do not have 80 magazines 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Make sure they all work reliably early on when they are still available and can be traded in (if dysfunctional)._

 

I didn't see any extras for the P6, but Retting has a bucket full of 1911 magazines for $8 each. Quality looks decent, so I'll grab eight more for the Springfield this weekend. Retting is a great place and the only "real" gun dealer in LA. Other places sell guns, but they're either sporting goods stores or ranges. Too bad we're limited to one purchase every 30 days, since there were a couple other pistols I wouldn't have minded picking up.

 Also, does anyone know of an online retailer that has ammunition in stock? I've had no luck finding any for sale at a few shops locally. They're cleaned out and have empty shelves.

 You know, this might be a good time to look into publicly-traded ammunition manufacturers. They must be doing pretty well.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know, this might be a good time to look into publicly-traded ammunition manufacturers. They must be doing pretty well._

 

I checked into it earlier in the year and no dice on that front. The major publicly traded players are Olin (Winchester) and Alliant Techsystems (CCI/Speer/Federal). Olin's chemical business is significantly larger than their ammunition manufacturing business and has been hit by the general economic downturn. Alliant Techsystems also sells a lot more than bullets. Their financial prospects (and stock price) have been hurt by the predicted FY09/FY10 military budget contraction and loss of revenue in their space division.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, does anyone know of an online retailer that has ammunition in stock? I've had no luck finding any for sale at a few shops locally. They're cleaned out and have empty shelves.

 You know, this might be a good time to look into publicly-traded ammunition manufacturers. They must be doing pretty well._

 

Check out:

Ammo, Ammunition, Rifle Ammunition, 9mm Ammo, Military Surplus
Natchez Shooters Supplies
Graf & Sons - The Reloading Authority
Discount Hunting Supplies, Shooting Supplies, Ammunition - Able Ammo

 and, while they make their own ammunition (Canned Heat is reloaded from military surplus brass, other types manufactured with new brass), http://www.georgia-arms.com/ has a good reputation for pistol ammo (stay away from their .223, though).

 My father owns both Olin and ATK stock. Olin he's had for years (probably longer than I've been alive--I'm 27) and I want to say he's bought ATK 5-7 years ago. He's made money on both (even with the current bear market) but Marvin is right, Winchester is a very small part of Olin's business and ATK relies far more on military contracts and business than they do on what we buy.


----------



## wareagle69

Outdoor Marksman - The cheap source for you to buy ammo, hunting, camping and fishing supplies.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Also, does anyone know of an online retailer that has ammunition in stock? I've had no luck finding any for sale at a few shops locally. They're cleaned out and have empty shelves.
_

 

Thought about reloading, UE? Pistol ammo is really easy.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thought about reloading, UE? Pistol ammo is really easy._

 

There are shortages in reloading components, too. Try to buy brass, powder, or primers.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are shortages in reloading components, too. Try to buy brass, powder, or primers._

 

No doubt, especially the primers. Still, it's doable with a little searching. Check a local range for once fired brass. I'm still able to get the major calibers for $34 per 1k.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thought about reloading, UE? Pistol ammo is really easy._

 

Reloading is relatively easy (after the initial investment), if you are detail oriented and well organized. And then it gets better if you are analytic and persnickety. Folks get into it because they want to shoot a lot and save money. Folks stay in reloading because they are able to get exactly what they want. I'm still using components from the 70s. Store your stuff in a cool, dry place.


----------



## Duke309

Just added to my collection a Kel-tec PF9, can't believe I found one. I was 12th on the waiting list at the store I usually buy from.

 I'll try and get some pics once I get a nice pocket holster for it.


----------



## boomana

Well, I'm slow on catching up. If anyone's still interested in ammo deals, in stores or online, this is a good resource:

gun-deals.com - User-Submitted Gun & Ammunition Deals

 Just click on the type of ammo you're want. Sometimes it's up-to-date, and sometimes not so much.


----------



## randerson3024

I bought these two yesterday. The Kimber is just amazing!


----------



## Samgotit

There is entirely too much .45 peer pressure around here! Looks great^^

 My latest:
 Marlin 60 - just wanted a .22 plinker.


----------



## randerson3024

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is entirely too much .45 peer pressure around here! Looks great^^

 My latest:
 Marlin 60 - just wanted a .22 plinker. 




_

 

Thanks! The Marlin looks fun!


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought these two yesterday. The Kimber is just amazing!










_

 


 Very nice. Is this what happens when you're on vacation?


----------



## randerson3024

Actually, only recently I have started to rebuild my collection. My father and I shared a nice collection, but our family home was burglurized some years ago and we lost most of our collection. I'm not a hunter, but I do enjoy target shooting and the technology of well deisinged firearms.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Nice pair, randerson!

 The waiting period ended last week and I was able to pick up the Sig P6 this morning. I took it to the range and put 200 rounds through it. The P6 was like clockwork - no misfeeds and damn accurate. It took a couple of clips to get used to its feel, but after that, I was shooting tight patterns at 21'. It was surprisingly accurate at 50' out, as well. As some have complained, the trigger pull is heavy on the first round, but is just about right if it is cocked. I think I'll leave the trigger stock - these don't have a manual safety, so a heavy pull is probably a good thing.

 I just field stripped and cleaned it. Takedown is easy (almost identical to a 92FS) and it's immaculate inside. It's stamped that it was made in May 1979, but it sure doesn't look it.

 For $419, I don't think I could have done much better.


----------



## randerson3024

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice pair, randerson!

 The waiting period ended last week and I was able to pick up the Sig P6 this morning. I took it to the range and put 200 rounds through it. The P6 was like clockwork - no misfeeds and damn accurate. It took a couple of clips to get used to its feel, but after that, I was shooting tight patterns at 21'. It was surprisingly accurate at 50' out, as well. As some have complained, the trigger pull is heavy on the first round, but is just about right if it is cocked. I think I'll leave the trigger stock - these don't have a manual safety, so a heavy pull is probably a good thing.

 I just field stripped and cleaned it. Takedown is easy (almost identical to a 92FS) and it's immaculate inside. It's stamped that it was made in May 1979, but it sure doesn't look it.

 For $419, I don't think I could have done much better._

 

Cool, it sounds like you got a really great deal. This is my first Sig and I have wanted one for a long time. I got mine brand new for $520, the dealer got six of them at a huge discount. I hope to get out and shoot it in the next day or so. The Kimber is really sexy, I can't believe how well built it is and how good it looks. The picture does not do it real justice. It also has an internal laser with a hidden on off switch on the handle grip, and you simply apply a little pressure under the trigger gaurd to enable it. I bought a Ruger GP-100, a Glock .40, and an unfired nickel plated 6" Colt Python (which I think I will keep unfired) the last time home, so I should have a good time shooting all these. I only make it home every six months or so.


----------



## BlindTiger

I didn't know there was a primer shortage?
 does that mean the same for powder, brass and lead?


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlindTiger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't know there was a primer shortage?
 does that mean the same for powder, brass and lead?_

 

Really, it depends on what you are looking for. From my observations, most things related to pistol are in short supply, especially brass and bullets for common calibers. Hodgdon Universal Clays is apparently out of stock pretty much everywhere but Alliant powders are in pretty good supply.


----------



## BlindTiger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really, it depends on what you are looking for. From my observations, most things related to pistol are in short supply, especially brass and bullets for common calibers. Hodgdon Universal Clays is apparently out of stock pretty much everywhere but Alliant powders are in pretty good supply._

 

wow, it's the pistol Cals that's in short supply? wouldn't of thought of that.
 I like Hodgdon universal clays in .45, nice powder puff. I just started trying
 the alliant red dot stuff, usually buy Win 231 and IMR 700X because that's all
 the local guy has. haven't done any reloading in a long long time still have a lot of supplies.
 another one of those hobbies I spent a lot of money on, tried selling the stuff
 but people really wanna take advantage of you. as long as I keep the stuff
 in a cool dry place, the primers not in an airtight container, I'm OK so far 
 going on 8 years.


----------



## randerson3024

My possible next purchase:


----------



## archosman

10mm?


----------



## randerson3024

Yes, 10mm.


----------



## Old Pa

Loading 50 grain .223 BlitzKings into match turned Lake City .223Rem cases this evening after spending way too much time this afternoon carefully clearing the Dillon 550 from a case full powder spill, a stuck case and then resetting everything to spec. Pays to take the time and do it right. NoDak for big rodents in three days.


----------



## tyrion

Newest addition:


----------



## leftnose

Nice CBOB.

 You should get a set of Esmeralda's for it: http://esmeralda.cc/


----------



## wareagle69

Great purchase tyrion. Dan Wesson builds an outstanding line of 1911s at reasonable prices. The CBOB alternates with a Glock 36 as my daily carry piece. (Yeah, I know its apples and oranges, but they are both super reliable.)


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice CBOB.

 You should get a set of Esmeralda's for it: http://esmeralda.cc/_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wareagle69* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great purchase tyrion. Dan Wesson builds an outstanding line of 1911s at reasonable prices. The CBOB alternates with a Glock 36 as my daily carry piece. (Yeah, I know its apples and oranges, but they are both super reliable.)_

 

Thanks. It was recommended to me by MexicanDragon and boomana, I believe. I shoot well with it and with the Milt Sparks IWB holster grawk sent me to try out, it conceals pretty well with my shirt not tucked in. I am thinking of picking up a Kahr PM9 for days when I choose to carry but have to tuck my shirt in. I'm waiting for one to show up used locally or for my local shop to get one in.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

I carry the Ed Brown Executive Commander which looks very similar to yours and it is a great carry gun. So easy to conceal.

 Mike, I assume you have a proper gun belt. Carrying a 1911 with a good holster and a proper belt makes for an easy conceal. I get mine from the Belt Man.

Gun Belts by The Belt Man

 I actually think the belt is more important than the holster as the difference between a good holster and a bad holster is not as big as the difference between a department store belt and a gun belt.


----------



## tyrion

Jeff, your Ed Brown could be the twin of my gun, except for a few dollars more. The DW CBOB has a bunch of Ed Brown parts so I guess this shouldn't be a shock.

 I will be ordering a couple of belts from the Belt Man as soon as I can measure. Thanks.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am thinking of picking up a Kahr PM9 for days when I choose to carry but have to tuck my shirt in. I'm waiting for one to show up used locally or for my local shop to get one in._

 

PM9s are keepers. Well designed as practical firearms, mechanically reliable, and particularly suited to their niche purpose.


----------



## grawk

That milt sparks holster is obviously my favorite. It's relatively belt agnostic, as you're clipping the holster to your waistband, and then using the belt to support it. It's the W6DT using the Alessi talon clips.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That milt sparks holster is obviously my favorite. It's relatively belt agnostic, as you're clipping the holster to your waistband, and then using the belt to support it. It's the W6DT using the Alessi talon clips._

 

That's true, it does clip to the waistband as well. It doesn't look like he sells your model any longer. I may give one of his other IWB holsters a try.


----------



## grawk

I think Alessi still sells them, and lightning arms may still have some.


----------



## Samgotit

Shot a USPSA match (production class) today with a sub compact XD40. I'm hooked. My only goal was not to get DQ'ed. I succeeded. Also got to covet some beautiful race guns. Anyone else shoot competitions like this. The practical part of USPSA was eye-openingly true compared to plinking at the range. 

 Beginning of next month I shoot my first F-class 600yd match. I'm a twitch excited about that one.


----------



## randerson3024

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I carry the Ed Brown Executive Commander which looks very similar to yours and it is a great carry gun. So easy to conceal.

 Mike, I assume you have a proper gun belt. Carrying a 1911 with a good holster and a proper belt makes for an easy conceal. I get mine from the Belt Man.

Gun Belts by The Belt Man

 I actually think the belt is more important than the holster as the difference between a good holster and a bad holster is not as big as the difference between a department store belt and a gun belt.




_

 


 Very nice! I just added a pristine original Colt 10MM Delta Elite to my collection.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Hey guys, I'm hoping to go to a shooting range over the summer and fire some shotguns and maybe some pistols (even though I'm under 21). What's the average price of partaking in such an activity, or does it vary wildly (i.e. how much ammo you use, how long you plan to use it, etc.)?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, I'm hoping to go to a shooting range over the summer and fire some shotguns and maybe some pistols (even though I'm under 21). What's the average price of partaking in such an activity, or does it vary wildly (i.e. how much ammo you use, how long you plan to use it, etc.)?_

 

Ammunition is very scarce and expensive right now for the common calibers (9mm .40 .45). You don't them though. .22LR is very cheap and still available (here at least). If possible find an outdoor range with trap throwers, even if you have to travel further. Target shotgun loads are also cheap and available. Shooting clays is a kick. I think the last 500 .22 I bought was about $15 and it's about $25 for 100 target shogun loads. Range fees are going to vary.


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice! I just added a pristine original Colt 10MM Delta Elite to my collection._

 

I have an Elite also. I load my own 10mm and find with certain loads it functions flawlessly while with many commercial brand bullets in can be hit or miss.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ammunition is very scarce and expensive right now for the common calibers (9mm .40 .45). You don't them though. .22LR is very cheap and still available (here at least). If possible find an outdoor range with trap throwers, even if you have to travel further. Target shotgun loads are also cheap and available. Shooting clays is a kick. I think the last 500 .22 I bought was about $15 and it's about $25 for 100 target shogun loads. Range fees are going to vary._

 

$25 for 100 seems like a decent price. I was expecting something higher, up to $50. I didn't understand some of those terms, so I guess I'll be going onto Google and calling around to see what they have to offer. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, I'm hoping to go to a shooting range over the summer and fire some shotguns and maybe some pistols (even though I'm under 21). What's the average price of partaking in such an activity, or does it vary wildly (i.e. how much ammo you use, how long you plan to use it, etc.)?_

 

Range rates are about $12 an hour at the LAX Firing Range near me. Ammo runs $15-$25 for 100 rounds, you also have to buy paper targets ($0.25-$0.75 each) and you have to rent a gun if you don't have one. I haven't rented, bub IIRC, they're $6-$12 an hour or so. When I go, I usually spend about $60-$70 to shoot 200 rounds, which is a pretty good day. You'll also need to bring eye and hearing protection, or you can rent them. It's probably been discussed here, but I like to use foam plugs under a headset. Either is good enough, but doubling up can't hurt.

 If you're going to be around LA and want to shoot, drop me a PM some time. I've got a couple .45 ACPs, a 9mm and a 20 gauge pump. There's an assortment of rifles and shotguns down in the desert - I should probably bring a few of those up next time I'm down there. Anyhow, drop me a line if you want to go.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Range rates are about $12 an hour at the LAX Firing Range near me. Ammo runs $15-$25 for 100 rounds, you also have to buy paper targets ($0.25-$0.75 each) and you have to rent a gun if you don't have one. I haven't rented, bub IIRC, they're $6-$12 an hour or so. When I go, I usually spend about $60-$70 to shoot 200 rounds, which is a pretty good day. You'll also need to bring eye and hearing protection, or you can rent them. It's probably been discussed here, but I like to use foam plugs under a headset. Either is good enough, but doubling up can't hurt.

 If you're going to be around LA and want to shoot, drop me a PM some time. I've got a couple .45 ACPs, a 9mm and a 20 gauge pump. There's an assortment of rifles and shotguns down in the desert - I should probably bring a few of those up next time I'm down there. Anyhow, drop me a line if you want to go._

 

$15 - $25 for 100 rounds? If that's 9 mm or 45, I may have to buy some when I'm LA for CanJam. Not counting Walmart, which never has either in stock almost all the time, the best I've been able to do is around $14 to $20 per 50 of either 9 mm or 45.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Cheers for the great offer, *Uncle Erik*. Unfortunately, this is finals week, and then I'm back in San Jose until late August.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$15 - $25 for 100 rounds? If that's 9 mm or 45, I may have to buy some when I'm LA for CanJam. Not counting Walmart, which never has either in stock almost all the time, the best I've been able to do is around $14 to $20 per 50 of either 9 mm or 45._

 

You need to go to a gun show Mike, a bit cheaper.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You need to go to a gun show Mike, a bit cheaper._

 

I will check out the next one but I hear the prices are high at the shows as well. People buy all they can from Walmart and sell at a profit.


----------



## Samgotit

I learned to shoot with a single action .22, so think this was a nostalgia/impulse buy, but anyway... I found one local for a price I couldn't pass up:

 4.75" USFA Rodeo SAA .45 Colt:
The Original Rodeo Gun

 This is my first wheel gun (easy to retain brass). It's surprisingly mild to shoot.


----------



## Akathisia

I am new gun owner and really enjoy the chances I can get to the range (or find ammo...). 

 My first handgun was a Bersa Thunder .380 which I quickly traded for a Glock 19 since I regretted not getting one as soon as I came home with the Bersa :








 Then I got the Glock 19, my baby :







 I am going to look at getting a Nagant M1895 7.62mm revolver and then I will probably be done buying handguns for a while.


----------



## komi

Hello Yall !

 I use to have SigSauer 226 9mm., but here in Germany, you cant have any arms @ home ... 
 So i give my Sig to my best man, and will get new piece when i move back to Florida !

 I would like to share opinion about possible handgun!

 I prefer .40 SW ammos, but time after time i am thinking about .45 just cuz i see some idiots on crack keep going even after multiple 9mm shoots ... 

 Too bad "Black Talon" is out for good ! 

Black Talon

Black Talon Wiki



 Anyway ... 

 There is couple choices for self defence gun i am thinking about:

 "Tanfoglio Brothers" Gold Custom:






 is famoust IPSC [International Practical Shooting Confederation] champion Eric Grauffel gun ... If is good for him - will be good for me too .. LoL

 Eric Grauffel and "Gold Custom" in action:


+ YouTube Video​ _*ERROR:* If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed._ 




+ YouTube Video​ _*ERROR:* If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed._ 




 Second choice should be a "Bull Transmark" model Bul-M5 Ulrimate Racer:






 ... based on 1911 model


 ... "Caspian Arms" High Capacity






Caspian Arm High Capacity


 Then, "STI" MatchMaster













 I know, i know, those are a bit bulky pieces, but, i like it ...


----------



## grawk

I'm personally not a fan of race guns. Give me an Ed Brown Special Forces Carry any day:


----------



## komi

Talking about compact size, i really like Sig Sauer P250




















+ YouTube Video​ _*ERROR:* If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed._


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am new gun owner and really enjoy the chances I can get to the range (or find ammo...). 

 My first handgun was a Bersa Thunder .380 which I quickly traded for a Glock 19 since I regretted not getting one as soon as I came home with the Bersa :







 Then I got the Glock 19, my baby :







 I am going to look at getting a Nagant M1895 7.62mm revolver and then I will probably be done buying handguns for a while._

 

Hi there, Glocks are great pieces (owned a couple) however they require you to become fully familiar w/ their operation. Hope you spend a couple hundred rounds breaking the piece, and regular visits to the range to maintain proficiency.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *komi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too bad "Black Talon" is out for good ! 
_

 

Winchester learned a marketing lesson after the hysteria and fairy tale reputation they erroneously took on. 

 This round was relabeled and, reportedly, improved slightly by Winchester. The scary black coating (Lubalox, not Teflon) was removed and the round is now simply called Ranger SXT or T series. The retail boxes now are labeled "Law Enforcement" although it's readily available to the general public here. Again, this is "good marketing", as it gives the outward impression that it's only used by government agencies. 

 Tanfoglio, STI and others are incredibly impressive in the hands of competition shooters, but I can't see bothering for HD. I recently starting shooing practical shooting matches (production only), and those cats who are running race guns are doing so for a reason. They are very fast!


----------



## komi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Winchester learned a marketing lesson after the hysteria and fairy tale reputation they erroneously took on. 

 This round was relabeled and, reportedly, improved slightly by Winchester. The scary black coating (Lubalox, not Teflon) was removed and the round is now simply called Ranger SXT or T series. The retail boxes now are labeled "Law Enforcement" although it's is readily available to the general public here. Again, this is "good" marketing, as it gives the outward impression that it's only used by government agencies. 

 Tanfoglio, STI and others are incredibly impressive in the hands of competition shooters, but I can't see bothering for HD. I recently starting shooing practical shooting matches (production only), and those cats who are running race guns are doing so for a reason. They are very fast!_

 



 I got IPSC competition Licence too, but - i dont have a gun anymore, this mean, no competition for me while i am here !

 Black Talon was out after nick name - Cop Killer ... !

 Thanx for let me know there is substitution ... 


 Regards !


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I am going to look at getting a Nagant M1895 7.62mm revolver and then I will probably be done buying handguns for a while._

 

Glock and Nagant... that's going to make an interesting, juxtaposing pair.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm personally not a fan of race guns. Give me an Ed Brown Special Forces Carry any day_

 

x2. Except I live in IL where there is no concealed carry so I'll take the Government size instead.

 I'm debating between a Brown Special Forces or a Baer Thunder Ranch in hard chrome as my next 1911 purchase. Also thinking about a HC HW Monolith but it should probably be something with night sights as I only have one pistol with night sights in my collection and could use another.


----------



## grawk

I'd want mine in blue/black of course.


----------



## Brother Ali

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am new gun owner and really enjoy the chances I can get to the range (or find ammo...). 

 My first handgun was a Bersa Thunder .380 which I quickly traded for a Glock 19 since I regretted not getting one as soon as I came home with the Bersa :








 Then I got the Glock 19, my baby :







 I am going to look at getting a Nagant M1895 7.62mm revolver and then I will probably be done buying handguns for a while._

 

I have seen the Nagant revolver at aimsurplus.com for 80.00


----------



## Born2bwire

I didn't know the Nagant's went that cheap, but man, good luck finding ammo. I have shot one though, it was neat.


----------



## falang

How about a Buffalo Bill antique 30/30 rifle? Inherited it from my grandpa. Very cool and legal in Canada. No pics and not sure how old it is. I think 40 years old or so and in mint condition.


----------



## wotblake

Last year I bought my first gun. I thought I would get one gun for home defense.

 Now a year later, I just counted the guns in my safe and added them up. It's about $12,000 worth of guns. How the hell did this happen?


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wotblake* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now a year later, I just counted the guns in my safe and added them up. It's about $12,000 worth of guns. How the hell did this happen?_

 

You're lucky you still only have one safe! Guns are very much like headphones or any other collectible, once you've spent $xyz on a gun, it's easy to spend that much again and slowly your tolerance creeps up!

 As an aside, you might want to look into getting a special insurance policy for your guns. Most homeowner policies have caps on coverage for guns and gun theft is not uncommon. My grandparents' home was broken into when my father still lived there; the thieves walked from one end of the house past everything valuable including my grandmother's jewelry and took only the guns.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As an aside, you might want to look into getting a special insurance policy for your guns. Most homeowner policies have caps on coverage for guns and gun theft is not uncommon._

 

Good idea. If you are a member (or join) the NRA, you will get a measure of firearms theft insurance as part of your member benefits. You can up the limit for payment of an additional premium. Lots of gun owners do not wish to give a detailed list of their firearms to their homeowners insurer.


----------



## wotblake

Another problem I have with guns is every time I sell one I wish I hadn't a month later.

 With ammo so high now, I barely ever shoot my guns. I mostly just pull them out of the safe and look at them. haha


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wotblake* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another problem I have with guns is every time I sell one I wish I hadn't a month later.

 With ammo so high now, I barely ever shoot my guns. I mostly just pull them out of the safe and look at them. haha_

 

Buyer's Remorse: I know it well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, there have been some guns that I was really, really, really happy to unload/sell.

 Please remember that you have a Constitutional Obligation to get out to the range with your gun(s) at least once a month and 1) be away from everything else in your life, and 2) SHOOTSHOOTSHOOT!! You will be a better person (and citizen) for it. Even just following the Four Rules improves mindfulness.


----------



## wotblake

The only gun I've ever been really happy to get rid of was a Kel-tec p3at. I bought a Ruger LCP recently and have been way more happy with this gun.


----------



## bigrigdog

Nice to see other recreational shooters here. My prized possession is a 1968 Al Weber custom .222 Rem benchrest rifle. It's like a single shot Remington 40x with a Zeiss Conquest 6-20x mildot scope. Kind of a classic LP player tube stage of rifles.

 I hope that reloading supplies will get cheaper later on this year. My meager stash of small rifle primers are worth more than my compact 1911. I hardly even use my .22lr CZ 427 rifle now that prices are so astronomically high.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigrigdog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice to see other recreational shooters here. My prized possession is a 1968 Al Weber custom .222 Rem benchrest rifle. It's like a single shot Remington 40x with a Zeiss Conquest 6-20x mildot scope. Kind of a classic LP player tube stage of rifles.

 I hope that reloading supplies will get cheaper later on this year. My meager stash of small rifle primers are worth more than my compact 1911. I hardly even use my .22lr CZ 427 rifle now that prices are so astronomically high._

 

Welcome. My .25-06 Remington 700 is also out of 1968; one of the first production .25-06. And I own and shoot more than a dozen guns older than that. Puts me in touch. I'm still sitting on more decade old ammunition and components than I can get out to shoot; better that than the alternative.

 Ammunition prices are only exorbitant; astronomical is closer to the range of scientific notation where we may begin to see the hand of God, within and without. So get out and shoot!


----------



## dubleon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *komi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Talking about compact size, i really like Sig Sauer P250




















+ YouTube Video​ *ERROR:* If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed. 

_

 

NICE!! I love SIGs- Never seen this model before, always wanted a Sig Pro..A supressor would be nice with the urban digi cam pattern


----------



## dubleon

Droool


----------



## Scott_Tarlow

Hey I don't know if anyone is interested but I am selling off my EOtech 516, I can give you a great price. Have all forms ect... Lemme know


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dubleon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 Droool_

 

I never understood those "blocky" triggers. I would imagine that they'd feel awkward to curl your finger around.


----------



## grawk

You're supposed to shoot with the tip of your finger, not curl your finger around it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But yah, I prefer curve in my trigger, too.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're supposed to shoot with the tip of your finger, not curl your finger around it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But yah, I prefer curve in my trigger, too._

 

I'm sure that works fabulously for people whose hands are sized for that sort of shooting. I find it annoyingly difficult to fire DA weapons that way, and I'm not sure it's the best form to have from a defensive standpoint. But may that theory never be tested!


----------



## grawk

You may find you're a lot more consistent if you practice it enough to have it be natural. Wrapping your finger around the trigger makes you a lot more likely to pull your shots.


----------



## intoflatlines

Anyone in the Chicago suburbs willing to help me out with getting started with guns? I am applying for a FOID soon and will be moving out of Chicago in a couple weeks. 

 I did some shooting in Boy Scouts back in the day, but only with .22 rifles and 12 ga shotguns. I'm looking to get into handguns. Of course, I will be taking maintenance/safety classes before I make any serious decisions.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You may find you're a lot more consistent if you practice it enough to have it be natural. Wrapping your finger around the trigger makes you a lot more likely to pull your shots._

 

Bearing in mind that I'm relatively new to handguns, I just went out and tried this, all deliberate-like, dry-firing a DAO CZ38.

 Using the pad of my finger invariably caused the muzzle to jump right with each pull. Placing the distal joint over the trigger virtually eliminated muzzle jump.

 Could by poor technique, or maybe I've just got huge hands? I've got something to try out now... more to come! At least, assuming the range decides to start keeping their posted hours again...


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *C38368* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bearing in mind that I'm relatively new to handguns, I just went out and tried this, all deliberate-like, dry-firing a DAO CZ38.

 Using the pad of my finger invariably caused the muzzle to jump right with each pull. Placing the distal joint over the trigger virtually eliminated muzzle jump.

 Could by poor technique, or maybe I've just got huge hands? I've got something to try out now... more to come! At least, assuming the range decides to start keeping their posted hours again..._

 

It's usually framed as a leverage vs control issue.

 At one extreme, long travel triggers with a heavy pull weights (HK VP70, S&W J-Frame) force most people to hit the trigger with their distal joint as they can't generate enough force to press the trigger in a consistent manner with just the pad of their finger.

 At the other extreme, short travel triggers with light pull weights (1911, SA revolver) can easily be fired with the tip of the finger only. This can give a bit more control as the tip is a bit more isolated from the muscle actuation and has more sensitivity, giving the shooter a bit better feel of what is going on.

 Course, to complicate things even more, expert trainers and shooters go both ways on which method is 'better' and trigger position can vary based on gun fit.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *intoflatlines* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone in the Chicago suburbs willing to help me out with getting started with guns? I am applying for a FOID soon and will be moving out of Chicago in a couple weeks._

 

Once you get your FOID, send me a PM, we might be able to work something out. Any range in IL will ask to see your FOID to rent you a lane and you need to to buy ammo or guns, anyway.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrapping your finger around the trigger makes you a lot more likely to pull your shots._

 

x2. In 'real life' I'm a clay target shooter and pulling the trigger on a shotgun uses a very different technique set than shooting a pistol or rifle. I really only dabble in handguns but I find that I need to have the _*very*_ tip of my finger on the trigger or I pull shots something awful. It's a consistent pull, though, as the group sizes are about the same but off to the side of the bull.

  Quote:


 I'm sure that works fabulously for people whose hands are sized for that sort of shooting. I find it annoyingly difficult to fire DA weapons that way, and I'm not sure it's the best form to have from a defensive standpoint. But may that theory never be tested! 
 

The above, since it's a traditional 1911, is actually a SAO gun and the trigger pull is probably somewhere around 4-4.5 lbs.

 The point of the flat trigger is that it has no 'sweet spot.' A standard 1911 trigger is curved and, unless you put your finger in the same spot everytime, the trigger pull will feel different. The flat trigger alleviates this issue.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's usually framed as a leverage vs control issue.

 At one extreme, long travel triggers with a heavy pull weights (HK VP70, S&W J-Frame) force most people to hit the trigger with their distal joint as they can't generate enough force to press the trigger in a consistent manner with just the pad of their finger.

 At the other extreme, short travel triggers with light pull weights (1911, SA revolver) can easily be fired with the tip of the finger only. This can give a bit more control as the tip is a bit more isolated from the muscle actuation and has more sensitivity, giving the shooter a bit better feel of what is going on.

 Course, to complicate things even more, expert trainers and shooters go both ways on which method is 'better' and trigger position can vary based on gun fit._

 

This is, of course, perfectly logical. I suppose I jumped to my original premise a bit prematurely: I approach handguns as a primarily defensive weapon. Accordingly, bulls eye shooting and very light trigger pulls are of less concern to me than other aspects of handguns.

 Though when I consider this both with respect to the small amounts of genuine precision shooting I've done (as well as the rifle and shotgun--my primary weapon, if you will), I find that I cannot disagree in the slightest.

 S'pose I should've qualified my original comment better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point of the flat trigger is that it has no 'sweet spot.' A standard 1911 trigger is curved and, unless you put your finger in the same spot everytime, the trigger pull will feel different. The flat trigger alleviates this issue._

 

This is good to know. Never considered that there might be a "better" choice than the traditional, curved trigger. Will file this one away for future reference!


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *intoflatlines* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone in the Chicago suburbs willing to help me out with getting started with guns? I am applying for a FOID soon and will be moving out of Chicago in a couple weeks. 

 I did some shooting in Boy Scouts back in the day, but only with .22 rifles and 12 ga shotguns. I'm looking to get into handguns. Of course, I will be taking maintenance/safety classes before I make any serious decisions._

 

Fun. Fun.

 Okay, before I got back into handguns after 20 years of nothing, I did a lot of research into what I thought I wanted. After going to the range and trying out those guns, not one of the guns I was sure I wanted ended up being best for me. Find a range that rents a wide selection, and/or do I as did and hire an instructor for a couple hours to basically take you shopping. I was able to try out about 12 different guns in a few hours, and by the end of the day, had it narrowed down to two for my first gun. I could have been happy with either, but went for the Wilson KZ, because it was used (barely) and I got a great deal.

 Word of warning: Guns are an even more expensive/addicting hobby than headphones. That KZ only lasted in my home for a few months (sold to a head-fier), and I've somehow acquired a few more. Like headphones, think of your primary purpose (hobby/range, personal protection, concealed carry, etc.) and then start looking around and trying different models. My reasoning for having what I do that might help you:

Smith & Wesson M&P 9C.  Basic good gun, and primary use is for range and carry. Fit my hand better than others, and I shot it better than a Glock or and XD, which were the other two I was considering. The other "basic" guns I was researching (CZs, Beretta) were eliminated due to hand fit (as a woman, I couldn't reach the trigger well well on some models). You really need to try different guns out. You'll know when you've found the one that's right for you. I chose the compact model for carry, but since you can't carry in Illinois, that probably won't be a consideration with your first gun. 9mm is cheaper to shoot/practice than .45 or .40. 

Les Baer Xtreme Tactical. You really need to try a 1911. Everyone (okay, not everyone) should have a 1911, and there are a lot of nice ones out there at various price points. I have this one mostly because I like it and got a good deal in a trade that included headphones (HF1s). This gun is so easy to shoot and be accurate with, I look really impressive at the range, but it's also the one I keep loaded here at home for the same reason. .45 gets really expensive to shoot.

Seecamp .380. I wanted a true pocket gun, and one I could wear with my more girly clothes (M&P is too bulky) without printing, and I don't believe in purse carry if avoidable. Guys don't have the same problem. I ordered this from Seecamp (14 month wait), since trying to buy one from a dealer or even used is usually double the price. I'm still waiting. I thought about the Rohrbaugh R9, which is the same size, but I figure that if I'm ever going to be using it, I'll be close enough that 9mm vs. .380 better not make a difference. One shot better be it. Not a range gun, except to keep in a little practice. At the SHOT show this year, Taurus and Sig both had a couple nice, pocket .380 (the Sig seemed modeled on the Colt Mustang), but I don't know if they're available yet. I know that Sig was looking at April for release but they weren't yet in my local gun store when I was there mid June.

Browning hi-power. Never has a gun felt so right in my hand, as if it was made for me. That's the main reason I got it. Mine is highly customized (Ted Yost), and I'm an idiot, because I still have to facilitate it's transfer out of TN to me in FL though I bought it months ago. Think I'll do that today. This is my R10 of guns.

 I do want a good revolver, with the reasoning being that they don't jam as easily in high-pressure situations (I took a couple tactical classes, and I jammed my gun from prone shooting positions a couple time. That was a really important lesson to learn), and are easy to maintain, and mostly because I just want one. Maybe next year.


----------



## Old Pa

Hey boomana:






 The grip on an HP-35 with Pachmayrs was described to me decades ago as, well, holding onto yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now you know.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The grip on an HP-35 with Pachmayrs was described to me decades ago as, well, holding onto yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now you know. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

Yeah, sure, you can grin, but it puts a whole new spin on "squeeze, don't jerk", doesn't it?


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, sure, you can grin, but it puts a whole new spin on "squeeze, don't jerk", doesn't it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I need that grip.


----------



## intoflatlines

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Once you get your FOID, send me a PM, we might be able to work something out. Any range in IL will ask to see your FOID to rent you a lane and you need to to buy ammo or guns, anyway._

 

Thanks, I'll be sure to send you a PM when I get my FOID. Hopefully you can point me in the right direction and give me some pointers.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fun. Fun.

 Okay, before I got back into handguns after 20 years of nothing, I did a lot of research into what I thought I wanted. After going to the range and trying out those guns, not one of the guns I was sure I wanted ended up being best for me. Find a range that rents a wide selection, and/or do I as did and hire an instructor for a couple hours to basically take you shopping. I was able to try out about 12 different guns in a few hours, and by the end of the day, had it narrowed down to two for my first gun. I could have been happy with either, but went for the Wilson KZ, because it was used (barely) and I got a great deal.

 Word of warning: Guns are an even more expensive/addicting hobby than headphones. That KZ only lasted in my home for a few months (sold to a head-fier), and I've somehow acquired a few more. Like headphones, think of your primary purpose (hobby/range, personal protection, concealed carry, etc.) and then start looking around and trying different models. My reasoning for having what I do that might help you:

Smith & Wesson M&P 9C.  Basic good gun, and primary use is for range and carry. Fit my hand better than others, and I shot it better than a Glock or and XD, which were the other two I was considering. The other "basic" guns I was researching (CZs, Beretta) were eliminated due to hand fit (as a woman, I couldn't reach the trigger well well on some models). You really need to try different guns out. You'll know when you've found the one that's right for you. I chose the compact model for carry, but since you can't carry in Illinois, that probably won't be a consideration with your first gun. 9mm is cheaper to shoot/practice than .45 or .40. 

Les Baer Xtreme Tactical. You really need to try a 1911. Everyone (okay, not everyone) should have a 1911, and there are a lot of nice ones out there at various price points. I have this one mostly because I like it and got a good deal in a trade that included headphones (HF1s). This gun is so easy to shoot and be accurate with, I look really impressive at the range, but it's also the one I keep loaded here at home for the same reason. .45 gets really expensive to shoot.

Seecamp .380. I wanted a true pocket gun, and one I could wear with my more girly clothes (M&P is too bulky) without printing, and I don't believe in purse carry if avoidable. Guys don't have the same problem. I ordered this from Seecamp (14 month wait), since trying to buy one from a dealer or even used is usually double the price. I'm still waiting. I thought about the Rohrbaugh R9, which is the same size, but I figure that if I'm ever going to be using it, I'll be close enough that 9mm vs. .380 better not make a difference. One shot better be it. Not a range gun, except to keep in a little practice. At the SHOT show this year, Taurus and Sig both had a couple nice, pocket .380 (the Sig seemed modeled on the Colt Mustang), but I don't know if they're available yet. I know that Sig was looking at April for release but they weren't yet in my local gun store when I was there mid June.

Browning hi-power. Never has a gun felt so right in my hand, as if it was made for me. That's the main reason I got it. Mine is highly customized (Ted Yost), and I'm an idiot, because I still have to facilitate it's transfer out of TN to me in FL though I bought it months ago. Think I'll do that today. This is my R10 of guns.

 I do want a good revolver, with the reasoning being that they don't jam as easily in high-pressure situations (I took a couple tactical classes, and I jammed my gun from prone shooting positions a couple time. That was a really important lesson to learn), and are easy to maintain, and mostly because I just want one. Maybe next year._

 

Wow, lots of info here. Thanks! I'll keep those models in mind when I get to the point where I am looking to purchase my first!

 Thanks, and any more info would be appreciated!


----------



## bloodydoorknob

Here's my modest stash.


----------



## wuwhere

I only have one, a hi-cap 9mm Sig Sauer P226 w/ a Pachmayr grip, a 20-rnd mag + 2 15-rnd mag.


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bloodydoorknob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



 Here's my modest stash._

 

The new glock looks cool. Pretty bold with the new texture.


----------



## bloodydoorknob

Yea, the handle feels like skateboard tape. It takes a little getting used to...


----------



## mrarroyo

Vicky if you have a chance look into the S&W 640!

Product: Model 640 Revolver


----------



## jimmyjames8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey boomana:






 The grip on an HP-35 with Pachmayrs was described to me decades ago as, well, holding onto yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now you know. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

BHP's do have a nice feel/grip to them. But you need to change out the hammer to a commander style to avoid the BHP bite in the web of your hand and even then you can still get bit.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jimmyjames8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But you need to change out the hammer to a commander style to avoid the BHP bite in the web of your hand and even then you can still get bit._

 

Never been bit in over a two decades of Steel Challenges with M-35s. My understanding is that the issue "ring" style hammer was the real biter. That, and not getting a good grip.


----------



## leftnose

I've only shot an HP once but the owner advised to loop the pinky of my strong hand under the end of the magazine and that would position my hand to avoid hammer bite. Worked for me and I have big hands.


----------



## Samgotit

I finally got geared up to shoot a 600yd. F-Class T/R match. When I originally wanted to shoot this match, I found out my scope didn't have enough elevation to get out to 600yds. I ordered a 20 MOA base and was good to go. My .308 load chrono'ed at 2550fps, so that put me at ~18 MOA elevation from a 100yd. zero. For those that don't know, 18 MOA @ 600yds. translates to 107 inches that you must aim above the target due to our beloved force of gravity yanking down on the bullet during its time in the air. I hit the 8 ring with my first sight-in shot. Through the entire match, I hit the X ring (a five inch circle) 13 times out of 66 shots, which I was thrilled with from my factory barrel and action. Most of my others hit the 10 and 9 ring. I had a ball. 

 The most interesting part was looking down range through the spotting scope to score other shooters. As a shooter fires, you can follow the vapor trail of a bullet in flight from the muzzle of a rifle and watch the bullet arc before it disappears into the berm. The vapor trail looks EXACTLY like the bullet special effects in _The Matrix _series. Soooo cool...


----------



## jimmyjames8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Never been bit in over a two decades of Steel Challenges with M-35s. My understanding is that the issue "ring" style hammer was the real biter. That, and not getting a good grip. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Used to luv shooting steel. That is where I could beat the higher ranked shooters. They would go too fast and have to come back or shoot twice on the same plate. I would shoot steady but not slow and beat them every time on a steel stage. I have to get back into IPSC when the weather cools down. Been out of it for a number of years. All my shooting buddies moved chasing jobs or had kids and that was the end of their shootin' for a while.


----------



## jon743

---


----------



## jimmyjames8

Got to fondle one of these this weekend at Gander Mtn. $2000MSRP. It is piston operated but still, I'd buy the S&W for $1200.


----------



## gchanjam

I just recently bought these two and I'll post actual pictures once I decide on a new camera to replace my broken Canon. A Kimber Eclipse Target II and a Sig P220 Equinox, both .45 ACP, and both shoot like a dream. I'm looking for a replacement grip for the Sig because it's a little too slick for my tastes but a little grip tape on the front and the back is making me rethink a new grip.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good .40 S&W handgun? I've gotten the itch for another handgun, and would like to round out the collection with a .40. I've given some thought to the Glock, as well as a H&K USP in .40. I love the .45 USP, but wonder if it might be good to get used to another brand, as well. I had a S&W Sigma in .40 some years back, but sold it because I was never happy with its accuracy.

 My other two handguns are a Sig P6 and a Springfield 1911 - both of which I love. Any recommendations or advice would be welcome.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have a recommendation for a good .40 S&W handgun? I've gotten the itch for another handgun, and would like to round out the collection with a .40. I've given some thought to the Glock, as well as a H&K USP in .40. I love the .45 USP, but wonder if it might be good to get used to another brand, as well. I had a S&W Sigma in .40 some years back, but sold it because I was never happy with its accuracy.

 My other two handguns are a Sig P6 and a Springfield 1911 - both of which I love. Any recommendations or advice would be welcome._

 

Get the Glock, then get your butt out of the office and go shoot a USPSA match. You will fit right in. I've recently learned damn near 50% of the people that shoot competitively are lawyers.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get the Glock, then get your butt out of the office and go shoot a USPSA match. You will fit right in. I've recently learned damn near 50% of the people that shoot competitively are lawyers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

See if you can stand the Glop's trigger first; I cannot. I would recommend IDPA over USPSA as only the USPSA qualifiers bear any resemblence to reality while all the IDPA scenarios are reasonably rational. USPSA stages tell you to do all sorts of dumb things like run through closed doors and ignore cover and concealment and threat priority. FWIW, I was the only lawyer in any of the three action pistol leagues I participated in (although we had one looney judge who wanted to play for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would recommend IDPA over USPSA as only the USPSA qualifiers bear any resemblence to reality while all the IDPA scenarios are reasonably rational. USPSA stages tell you to do all sorts of dumb things like run through closed doors and ignore cover and concealment and threat priority. FWIW, I was the only lawyer in any of the three action pistol leagues I participated in (although we had one looney judge who wanted to play for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 


 I gotta disagree, Papillon. Here's how I'd do it coming from a neophyte like myself:

 Steel match
 USPSA
 IDPA

 That's not to say where you'd learn the most; that's just in order of ease. Really, I shoot them all for fun.


  Quote:


 See if you can stand the Glop's trigger first; I cannot. 
 

I really don't even like the guns, but there's an aftermarket parts bizarre for them. That's mostly why I'm considering one.



 Did you ever get around to setting up that private 1K range I'm planning on quitting my job for.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's how I'd do it coming from a neophyte like myself:_

 

As a non-neophyte to practical pistol shooting, I stand be my recommendations for the reasons stated.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As a non-neophyte to practical pistol shooting, I stand be my recommendations for the reasons stated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Are you pulling rank on me?


----------



## boomana

Uncle Erik, if you're checking out Glocks, try their counterpart, the M&P or the XD line. Similar guns with different feels. I like the angle and the way the M&P fits in my hand. I'm not sure why anyone would want .40 (yes, I know the basic arguments), but apparently many people do.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you pulling rank on me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, although as a former LEO with over forty years competitive shooting experience (ranked expert bullseye pistol, ranked in USPSA and IDPA), six training certificates from Gunsite and The Site, and having taught CCW permit classes, I do think that I have rank to pull.


----------



## grawk

What do you see the potential value in adding another caliber to your collection? I've personally gone back to just .45 and 9mm in handguns, to simplify the ammunition acquisition process. For one off calibers, I expect them to do something the others won't. For example, I have a couple of .44mags, but those are limited use bear gun rounds, etc.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, although as a former LEO with over forty years competitive shooting experience (ranked expert bullseye pistol, ranked in USPSA and IDPA), six training certificates from Gunsite and The Site, and having taught CCW permit classes, I do think that I have rank to pull. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You could have left the LEO part out. Most of 'em couldn't hit the broad side of a Walmart distribution center with a scatter gun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uncle Erik, if you're checking out Glocks, try their counterpart, the M&P or the XD line. Similar guns with different feels. I like the angle and the way the M&P fits in my hand. I'm not sure why anyone would want .40 (yes, I know the basic arguments), but apparently many people do._

 


 Back off, Lady. I shoot Fortay.

 Only because I have way too much brass and refuse to switch calibers. Although, if I had it to do all over again, I'd be a 9mm/.45 guy.


 ************

 Edit: I agree with Grawk on adding another size, UE.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could have left the LEO part out. Most of 'em couldn't hit the broad side of a Walmart distribution center with a scatter gun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

To the degree your hyperbole suggests, that's never been true. But I could tell you stories from my own experience on how thirty-five years ago there were few LEOs with much pride in their firearms skills. I remember when FBI agents doing annual qualification scored their own targets and there was a shredder by the scoring table. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But that's changed a lot. Real practical firearms skills are being taught to LEOs and practices and qualifications have moved to quarterly or monthly frequency. Many LEOs are active as competitive shooters. Things have really changed.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To the degree your hyperbole suggests, that's never been true. But I could tell you stories from my own experience on how thirty-five years ago there were few LEOs with much pride in their firearms skills. I remember when FBI agents doing annual qualification scored their own targets and there was a shredder by the scoring table. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But that's changed a lot. Real practical firearms skills are being taught to LEOs and practices and qualifications have moved to quarterly or monthly frequency. Many LEOs are active as competitive shooters. Things have really changed._

 

As usual, you are right. I was joshing you (I just like to use _scatter gun_ in a sentence). After lawyers (which, oddly, I really wasn't kidding about), the next largest group of competitive shooters are LE. They're from a broad group of agencies, too.


----------



## jimmyjames8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See if you can stand the Glop's trigger first; I cannot. I would recommend IDPA over USPSA as only the USPSA qualifiers bear any resemblence to reality while all the IDPA scenarios are reasonably rational. USPSA stages tell you to do all sorts of dumb things like run through closed doors and ignore cover and concealment and threat priority. FWIW, I was the only lawyer in any of the three action pistol leagues I participated in (although we had one looney judge who wanted to play for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 

I don't think either IDPA or USPSA bear any resemblance to reality, the reality of a gun fight, but they are both fun to shoot. USPSA is more fun to me due to higher round counts and more running and gunning. At least IDPA (I don't practice anymore) stresses shooting from cover but those "tactical" mag changes are a joke. Do they still give the RO authority to penalize you for "failure to do right"?


----------



## Khemist

My favorite carry gun bar none. Love this place, even more now!


----------



## randerson3024

Has anybody seen this? I am ordering one - I don't know how many times I have had to bust a cap in a bear's ass and come up short!


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get the Glock, then get your butt out of the office and go shoot a USPSA match. You will fit right in. I've recently learned damn near 50% of the people that shoot competitively are lawyers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That settles it. I think I'll drop in at Retting this weekend and see if they have one in stock or order one.

 Interesting comment about lawyers and shooting. I didn't sharpen my skills until one of my law school classmates joined the local PD after graduation and wanted someone to practice with. I tagged along at his range sessions and ended up able to pass all the police qualification tests, too. Good times. I'd like to try some competitive shooting - putting holes in paper at the range is always satisfying, but I'd like to improve.

 Boomana - I also like .45 and 9mm a great deal, but having a variety of calibers is something I want. Especially since .40 is regularly available while I sometimes can't find 9mm or .45 on the shelves at local shops. You can go back and forth on the merits of each, but I think .40 will get the job done, too.


----------



## C38368

Just a quick shot I took today of my 1911, sporting new cocobolo grips. I've got a few other photos, some of this gun and some of thers, hiding around here somewhere that I might post later.







 PS~ There was some chatter by myself earlier in this thread about actuating the trigger with the tip of one's finger versus the distal joint... I can't get a smooth pull on the trigger of this gun without using the tip, but I'll be damned if I can do the same on my Offical Police without hooking it at the distal joint *shrug*


----------



## leftnose

^^ Springfield?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *C38368* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS~ There was some chatter by myself earlier in this thread about actuating the trigger with the tip of one's finger versus the distal joint... I can't get a smooth pull on the trigger of this gun without using the tip, but I'll be damned if I can do the same on my Offical Police without hooking it at the distal joint *shrug*_

 

Single v. double action? Rederences to the 1911 trigger manipulation always involve single action.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ Springfield?_

 

Ditto this. I find the WWII copy that they make intriguing and was wondering how it actually measured up.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anybody seen this? I am ordering one - I don't know how many times I have had to bust a cap in a bear's ass and come up short!_

 

I guess this guy would have needed it :






 that was shot by Michio Hoschino, and it's supposed to be his last photo...ever.


----------



## IceClass

Bear attacks are no fun.


----------



## leeperry

what's funny is the box that says "bear attack emergency"....and that nature photographer who -when attacked(and killed) by a bear- decided to take a photo <SNAP>

 the guy goes alone in the inner russian lands w/o a riffle


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ Springfield?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ditto this. I find the WWII copy that they make intriguing and was wondering how it actually measured up._

 

Yep... GI.45. I think it measures up wonderfully. It's not expensive and you don't wind up with a bunch of garbage that you may or may not need. The sights... well, they suck. I wouldn't recommend the GI for competition against anyone other than yourself, because they are GI-style and therefore are small and hard to acquire. But the gun is perfectly capable of accurate index shooting.

 Out of the box, it's a pretty close match to the WWII-era GI 1911s. Mine is parkerized, but there's also a stainless version. The the hammer and thumb safety aren't period-correct, and the slide stop and mag release buttons are both serrated instead of checkered. And the rollmarks are substantially different. If you're a "Made in USA" freak, you won't like this gun, as the frame is stamped "Made in Brazil-IMBEL" on the second line. But whatever, doesn't bother me. Best of all: the frame and slide are both forged, and the slide has vertical serrations.

 Best of all, Springfield will sell you ten mags for $9 if you buy your gun new, and they're refinish it in brushed blue for $130 plus shipping. I'll be swapping out the four small parts, above, for "correct" versions in the near future, and will then send the whole gun off to be refinished and tuned a bit.

 I'll probably buy a Mil-Spec before then (especially if I can find an "NM" version), but I don't in the slightest regret buying this gun.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Single v. double action? Rederences to the 1911 trigger manipulation always involve single action._

 

Eh? Yes, the 1911 is a single action-only pistol. My point was that it seems most double action handguns demand that I hook the trigger with the distal joint of my finger to avoid jerking the gun on pull. Most single action pistols seem to be the opposite. That's all.


----------



## leftnose

I think if I really wanted a true WWII repro, I'd pick up one of Colt's:






 I saw one of these in a gun store in MN and, if I wouldn't have had to have done an FFL transfer, I would have bought it. They are really nice.

 They are in a difference price range than the Springfield GI guns, though. It seems that the Springfield guns are really good values.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anybody seen this? I am ordering one - I don't know how many times I have had to bust a cap in a bear's ass and come up short!_

 

Sorry, I saw this the other day and meant to reply.

 A friend of mine has an early production Model 500 which I have shot. One cylinder was enough for me for the day. It's honestly not all that bad because of the extreme weight of the pistol, excellent grips, good trigger, and compensator. To be frank, I'd rather shoot that 500 than a different friend's model 640 which I just can't get a good grip on because of my big hands which also prevent me from staging the trigger properly on a J-Frame. But, I think, especially with a short barrel, there is just too much recoil to be able to reliably place follow-up shots.

 I used to spend a lot of time in Bear country. I carried (and still own) this:




 Loaded with 3" 1-3/8 oz slugs at 1500 FPS. Luckily, I never shot those slugs at anything other than milk jugs filled with water.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think if I really wanted a true WWII repro, I'd pick up one of Colt's_

 

I considered that for a very long time, but the simple fact of the matter is that I could buy two Springers for the price of the Colt. Colt wins insofar as the frame is cut like the original 1911--without the scallop that the 1911A1 got in 1924. It also includes the original short-tail grip safety, which Colt doesn't appear to be selling as an individual part. Otherwise, you win on the rollmarks, but nothing else.

 With the Springer, though, I have more than enough money left over to install more-or-less GI-accurate small parts, refinish the gun (which admittedly, isn't "authentic" for WWII--but I love blue), and still tune up the action, with some cash to spare.

 So in the end, ecomony won out. As much as I'd love to have that Colt, I don't know if I'd actuall enjoy shooting it. And since you can find genuine period pieces for about what Colt is asking (with patina, but not clapped out), I just couldn't justify the cost in the end.

 The $9 mags didn't hurt, either!


----------



## flecom

heres my work in progress M4gery











 but it does say M4 on it lol






 it says 223, but this is a later 5.56 barrel version

 Colt MT6400C
 Trijicon TA31 ACOG 4x32
 LaRue Tactical ACOG Mount QD LT-100
 Magpul CTR Stock
 Magpul Enhanced Butt-Pad
 Magpul MIAD (setup with enhanced trigger-guard and small back-strap)
 Magpul PMAG
 Z-M Weapons Ambidextrous Sling Adapter
 Z-M Weapons Q.D. Single Point Sling, Black


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randerson3024* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anybody seen this? I am ordering one - I don't know how many times I have had to bust a cap in a bear's ass and come up short!_

 

That's an interesting kit. Is it a .44?


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ditto this. I find the WWII copy that they make intriguing and was wondering how it actually measured up._

 

I picked up the Springfield Mil-Spec earlier this year and have been very pleased with it. It's the only 1911 I've shot, but I find it accurate and solid. It needed a good cleaning and a few hundred rounds to break in, but it's a reliable shooter.

 It's still stock, but I've been planning to put black checkered aluminum grips on it and possibly new sights. It's not a competition pistol, but if you want a quality firearm that's good at the range and more than sufficient for personal defense, it's a great gun at a great price.


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiGHFLYiN9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's an interesting kit. Is it a .44?_

 

You can get it in either 460 S&W or .500 S&W Magnum.


----------



## csommers

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess this guy would have needed it :







 that was shot by Michio Hoschino, and it's supposed to be his last photo...ever._

 

Just to clarify, that actually isn't by Michio Hoshino, its a photoshop that has been passed around for ages.




 same bear from a stock photo agency. they just shopped on a caribou body and bear legs, hate to break it to ya.
 Would make for a better story though right?


----------



## bloodydoorknob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jon743* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ bloodydoorknob - What's that Beretta? a 92FS?_

 

It's a 92G, police issue, same as a fs, but with no safety.


----------



## Samgotit

Springfield Armory Special Service Grade M1 Garand (picture below) from CMP South:

South Store - Camp Perry

 I also bought a Field Grade H&R that measured 2 for muzzle wear and 2 for throat erosion. They're exquisite designs of history. It was very hard to leave the CMP store with only the two.


----------



## Born2bwire

I got a Garand from CMP North at Perry but damn, they did not have anything that nice when I went there a few years ago. The Special Service Grade looks nice!


----------



## wareagle69

Beautiful Garand. My 2 humble regular service grades are ugly ducklings compared to this one, but they are a joy to shoot as I know yours will be. 

 My Dad carried one from Normandy, across France and into Germany, and that makes the M1 very special to me.

 Congratulations on your gorgeous piece of history. 

 How does it group?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a Garand from CMP North at Perry but damn, they did not have anything that nice when I went there a few years ago. The Special Service Grade looks nice!_

 

The Special Service Grade is the "one" as I'm told by a local guru. He had just returned from Camp Perry with one. I saw it and had to have it, but they are not sold online and he thought they were only available at Perry for the Championships. That didn't do me much good. But I gave CMP south a call on a random Tuesday morning (they restock before and open on Wednesdays). I was told they would have Special Service Grades available, so I left for Anniston, AL on Tuesday afternoon, got a room for the night, and showed up at 7am the next morning. CMP opens at 8am and I was 6th in line. That was one eclectic line. Every one from the wacky old guy with the encyclopedic knowledge of everything Garand to a NASA flight surgeon. 

 The Special Grade is more expensive and they are offered online, but they have a new production barrel, which is a no-no for a collector. They are still gorgeous as far as I'm concerned. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wareagle69* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Beautiful Garand. My 2 humble regular service grades are ugly ducklings compared to this one, but they are a joy to shoot as I know yours will be._

 

Hang on to your Service Grades. There are none available at the moment. 

  Quote:


 My Dad carried one from Normandy, across France and into Germany, and that makes the M1 very special to me. 
 

Very nice. 

  Quote:


 Congratulations on your gorgeous piece of history. 

 How does it group? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

I've only sighted-in the H&R yet (the Field Grade), but that one groups as well as I can shoot it. I was concentrating on hearing that long, tinny *ping* for the first time when the clip ejects more than anything else.


----------



## jon743

---


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jon743* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Beretta 92's are way sexy, I've come this close to buying one a couple of times, but just couldn't justify it because I don't love the feel. (probably because I have small hands. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

Besides the issue with the 92's design leading to stress fractures of the slide, I managed to borrow one once to try and found it did not balance or shoot well for me. Since then, I've always tried to borrow a deisreable firearm and shoot it just to see if it will work out for me. A luxury you may not have with an issue firearm, but a good practice for the private owner.


----------



## Zarathustra19

Just got my first weapon, Springfield XD 9. Won't get a chance to shoot if for a little while, but I'm glad I finally pulled the trigger on the purchase (pun definitely intended).

 Cheers,
 Zach


----------



## Quinto

I use to own a Sig Sauer 9mm, but if I had to do it all over, I should have bought a AKG K1000 at the time


----------



## watchluvr4ever

This is my latest acquisition.


----------



## mrarroyo

^ Darn! I do not what to even imagine how much that set you back.


----------



## watchluvr4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Darn! I do not what to even imagine how much that set you back._

 

Let's just say I could have bought a really nice headphone rig for what I paid for it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That can be good or bad depending on the way you look at it.


----------



## grawk

I've never been a huge fan of the bullpup design.


----------



## IceClass

Bullpups are almost counter-intuitive feeling on first acquaintance but one can rapidly get a good feel and appreciation for them and not just a few excel at what they're designed for.


----------



## grawk

It's got the same "advantage" the HK P7 has. If you take the time to get used to it, and use nothing but it, it's awesome. If you don't, it's got the added benefit of confusing you with both, and causing more trouble.


----------



## flecom

finally pretty much done


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Wow Flecom, that is some serious business right there. I'd love to see the aftermath of the targets you're shooting.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *flecom* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_finally pretty much done_

 

No light?


----------



## flecom

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No light?_

 

the thing in the front on the rail is an AN-PEQ/2 copy that has a red 635nm laser and a 160 lumen LED light instead of an IR laser/IR illuminator


----------



## bizkit

.


----------



## Omega17TheTrue

That a real trooper that you have bizkit, notice the difference between the collector one and the army one.


----------



## bizkit

.


----------



## regal

I meant to buy an M16 before the prices went nuts in front of the election, have the prices come down any since?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant to buy an M16 before the prices went nuts in front of the election, have the prices come down any since?_

 

They've come down a lot. Last few I saw were barely over their prices before the election.


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They've come down a lot. Last few I saw were barely over their prices before the election._

 

I never understood that hysteria. Regardless of what position the legislature and president will take on firearms in the current administration, any restrictions via legislation would take some time to enact even after passing. Not like you were going to wake up on February 1st and all sales of AR15's were banned.


----------



## flecom

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never understood that hysteria. Regardless of what position the legislature and president will take on firearms in the current administration, any restrictions via legislation would take some time to enact even after passing. Not like you were going to wake up on February 1st and all sales of AR15's were banned._

 

thats definitely not what the gun stores wanted you to believe! 

 I tried to buy my colt back around march and was getting quoted over $2800 at some places for a USED Colt!!!

 ended up waiting and got it a few months later for $1250 shipped brand new in box


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Born2bwire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never understood that hysteria. Regardless of what position the legislature and president will take on firearms in the current administration, any restrictions via legislation would take some time to enact even after passing. Not like you were going to wake up on February 1st and all sales of AR15's were banned._

 

For AKs, it made a lot of sense. The President can pretty much ban them at will by issuing an Executive Order halting their importation. This is what Bush Sr. did with 'non-sporting' rifles from China, what Clinton did with everything but blackpowder arms and shotguns from China, and what Bush Jr did with shotgun imports from China for a while.

 Not quite as much sense for ARs though.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Haven't been to this site or thread in a while but....I've decided to carry and will be taking a CCW class next Saturday to be eligible for a permit. I've decided on the H&K USP Compact .45ACP as my carry weapon. I LOVE shooting .45's at the range. They just feel perfect. Regardless of the manufacturer...I just shoot best and am most comfortable with that caliber. I chose H&K because it felt best at the range(along with reliability and their reputation), and also because I am in love with it. lol

 I have done plenty research elsewhere and I am pretty much dead set on this firearm. I do have a few questions about CCW in general:

 1. My job prohibits firearms(which is disheartening as it's downtown where there is a lot of crime). I plan to carry anywhere else I go that is not prohibited. Should I simply leave the firearm at home, or should I plan on keeping in it the vehicle per the regulations of my state's laws? I'm not sure I see much of a purpose of keeping a gun in the car.

 2. Should I purchase the firearm locally? The prices are a little higher, but since this is my first purchase I am wondering if the extra expertise and customer service may be worth it.

 3. What are the best online resources for accessories? My local shops have terrible selections of holsters, grips, mags, etc. 

 4. For those of you who carry concealed, has this change the way some people view you? I understand that most people should have no idea that you carry, but for instance I just started dating this girl and she has no idea I am pursuing this. I could see how this could make her uncomfortable. Just curious...

 5. Lastly, I have been and am continuing to review Ohio's CC laws as I am very concerned about the legal aspect. If I have questions about the things I am researching, I assume it's best to consult legal counsel?


----------



## DanTheMiataMan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haven't been to this site or thread in a while but....I've decided to carry and will be taking a CCW class next Saturday to be eligible for a permit. I've decided on the H&K USP Compact .45ACP as my carry weapon. I LOVE shooting .45's at the range. They just feel perfect. Regardless of the manufacturer...I just shoot best and am most comfortable with that caliber. I chose H&K because it felt best at the range(along with reliability and their reputation), and also because I am in love with it. lol

 I have done plenty research elsewhere and I am pretty much dead set on this firearm. I do have a few questions about CCW in general:

 1. My job prohibits firearms(which is disheartening as it's downtown where there is a lot of crime). I plan to carry anywhere else I go that is not prohibited. Should I simply leave the firearm at home, or should I plan on keeping in it the vehicle per the regulations of my state's laws? I'm not sure I see much of a purpose of keeping a gun in the car.

 2. Should I purchase the firearm locally? The prices are a little higher, but since this is my first purchase I am wondering if the extra expertise and customer service may be worth it.

 3. What are the best online resources for accessories? My local shops have terrible selections of holsters, grips, mags, etc. 

 4. For those of you who carry concealed, has this change the way some people view you? I understand that most people should have no idea that you carry, but for instance I just started dating this girl and she has no idea I am pursuing this. I could see how this could make her uncomfortable. Just curious...

 5. Lastly, I have been and am continuing to review Ohio's CC laws as I am very concerned about the legal aspect. If I have questions about the things I am researching, I assume it's best to consult legal counsel?_

 



 for Q 1 and 5 ask legal counsel.

 2) Stay local IMO
 3) Not a clue
 4) yea that might be something you would like to talk with her about as some people are very very anti gun


----------



## jh4db536

here's my new toys (ccw included)


----------



## Samgotit

@number1sixerfan

 A USP compact is about as perfect as a ccw weapon I know of with caveats. What trigger is installed? Look into the LEM trigger; it’s is ideal. Look at Graysguns.com if you are interested in making an HK into something beyond most firearms. The initial double action trigger pull of the non-LEM HK’s needs special attention and training by the user IMO (more so than striker fired weapons). Although, there is no one ‘best’ ccw gun and proper training for any gun despite its action is to anyone's advantage. 


 1. Really, your choice. 

 2.HK is known by some as ‘Hates Kustomers’, but I hear that is changing. I’ve personally had no mechanial problems for the 2 P30's and 1 USP compact I own. 

 It’s can be difficult to form a relationship with a gun store for the uninitiated. The BEST place to figure that out is a local forum. 

 3. Midway.com and many others. 

 Holster choice is practically endless. 
 The Comp-tac Minotaur is a very popular choice: Minotaur Hybrid Holsters -

 4. No. It can make some uncomfortable. Such is life. The best thing you can do is offer to take the person to the range with you. Many people who have never been around firearms attribute them with magical powers and think if you tap on them with a tongue depressor they will fire and kill innocents around the globe. Try to dispel that. 

 5.. First, do as much research as you can to find the best instructor. Second, Ask your CCW instructor questions. Again, a local forum s is invaluable for this. After you take your CCW course, it will be to your benefit to seek out further firearm tanning. CCW courses are not designed to teach you how to use weapon. 

 There are many online sites to review laws and such. Use them like you would Wikipedia.- Don’t trust they are correct. Find your Ohio .gov site and read the laws for yourself. You are way above the curve thinking you should seek legal counsel for clarification. For the most part, friends, cops and other gun owners are not legal experts.

 Above all, join your local firarms forum. Looks like Ohio has an active one:
Firearms Forum Online &bull; Index page


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haven't been to this site or thread in a while but....I've decided to carry and will be taking a CCW class next Saturday to be eligible for a permit. I've decided on the H&K USP Compact .45ACP as my carry weapon. I LOVE shooting .45's at the range. They just feel perfect. Regardless of the manufacturer...I just shoot best and am most comfortable with that caliber. I chose H&K because it felt best at the range(along with reliability and their reputation), and also because I am in love with it. lol

 I have done plenty research elsewhere and I am pretty much dead set on this firearm. I do have a few questions about CCW in general:

 1. My job prohibits firearms(which is disheartening as it's downtown where there is a lot of crime). I plan to carry anywhere else I go that is not prohibited. Should I simply leave the firearm at home, or should I plan on keeping in it the vehicle per the regulations of my state's laws? I'm not sure I see much of a purpose of keeping a gun in the car.

 2. Should I purchase the firearm locally? The prices are a little higher, but since this is my first purchase I am wondering if the extra expertise and customer service may be worth it.

 3. What are the best online resources for accessories? My local shops have terrible selections of holsters, grips, mags, etc. 

 4. For those of you who carry concealed, has this change the way some people view you? I understand that most people should have no idea that you carry, but for instance I just started dating this girl and she has no idea I am pursuing this. I could see how this could make her uncomfortable. Just curious...

 5. Lastly, I have been and am continuing to review Ohio's CC laws as I am very concerned about the legal aspect. If I have questions about the things I am researching, I assume it's best to consult legal counsel?_

 

1) Places that prohibit lawful CCW just tell the bad guys "come and get it!" The MN CCW law makes parking lots and your vehicle free zones for adjusting your condition as you feel appropriate. I don't know about the Buckeye.

 2) Purchase your firearm where you feel comfortable and well cared for and get a good price. A new handgun will be under warranty and if there are unusual operations after 200 rounds of break-in with a clean gun, you want factory authorized service anyway. Where's your H&K service center?

 3) Google for Brownells. Blade Tech, Fobus, Galco etc. Get yourself a good nonlethal weapon (CN/pepper gas or a baton) and learn to use it. Martial arts are great exercise and real mind focusing activities.

 4) Nobody has ever guessed I was carrying. Once you get used to it, nobody will ever guess you are carrying.

 5) As a former LEO, a lawyer for over 25 years, and an instructor in lethal force law for CCW courses, I'll be happy to field your specific questions. Just take your CCW class first; my guess id it will answer most of your questions. Any chick worth being with digs guns. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Good luck.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Sam and Old Pa, great information. Thank you very much!

 And to answer your question Sam about the trigger, I was just thinking of getting a brand new OEM version, so I guess it would have the stock trigger. I will research more into the trigger and other parts I may need to be aware of that I may want to swap out.

 Another question, where have you all been purchasing Ammunition in 45ACP? So many places seem to be out of stock and on backorder...(*edit* found a few places online..)


----------



## number1sixerfan

Holy Crap…quoted $1058 for the USP. That’s the price for a new one, or a supposed limited edition they also have in stock. I was seeing $700 and $800 on the net, so I was definitely not ready for that.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Holy Crap…quoted $1058 for the USP. That’s the price for a new one, or a supposed limited edition they also have in stock. I was seeing $700 and $800 on the net, so I was definitely not ready for that._

 

One of the aspects of the already mentioned "Hates Kustomers" has always been H&K USA's unbending policies limiting and protecting dealers and supporting retail prices. No risk of free trade here. Wait till you price out the six magazines you are going to need.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of the aspects of the already mentioned "Hates Kustomers" has always been H&K USA's unbending policies limiting and protecting dealers and supporting retail prices. No risk of free trade here. Wait till you price out the six magazines you are going to need._

 

I need to make sure there isn't a cheaper alternative that I am overlooking since with tax this is $300 more than I was prepared to spend on this. I really liked the Glock models I use at the range but I really would like a manual safety....hmmm...

 And what all should I need for the first purchase? I know I'll need ammo, a case/bag, and cleaning kit should be all. I think it comes with 2 mags and I will double check that.

 Also, if anyone has a book to recommend on cc or gun ownership/safety in general please let me know. The local forum has been a huge pool of info so far.

 Thanks again.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And what all should I need for the first purchase? I know I'll need ammo, a case/bag, and cleaning kit should be all. I think it comes with 2 mags and I will double check that._

 

For a bag, check out Midway's:
MidwayUSA Competition Range Bag PVC Coated Polyester Black - MidwayUSA

 It is huge so be prepared for that. It will easily hold four guns (comes with two slips and two pockets that are good for guns), ammo, targets, eyes, ears, mags, etc.. They do make a smaller version as well.

 If you're going to shoot a ton with a magazine gun, get an Uplula:
Maglula UPLULA Universal Pistol Magazine Loader Polymer Black - MidwayUSA

 Be sure you know how to load a magazine by hand but one of these will really save your thumbs during a long range session.

 I've never used one as CC is prohibitied in Illinois, but check out Milt Sparks holsters. They have a very good reputation, especially the VersaMax II. http://www.miltsparks.com/

 EDIT: Also, since you are going to be owning your own gun and CC'ing, I assume that you are going to be shooting more. Use both plugs and muffs at the range. I have custom fit plugs because I shoot a ton of clay targets with a shotgun but foam plugs work just as well.


----------



## grawk

I love my milt sparks w6dt, although I used to have the lou alessi version I liked even more.

 I also have some matt delfatti leather I love, but his wait times have gone through the roof.


----------



## Feather225

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum, that's the one we used to hunt elephant back home.


----------



## number1sixerfan

I think I am going to order from budsgunshop. Thanks samgotit for the tip! They ship to my local gun shop and it is about $250 cheaper. Will just have to pay for the transfer fee. I think I will order by Friday, just want to make sure it's not an impulse purchase. lol


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They ship to my local gun shop and it is about $250 cheaper. Will just have to pay for the transfer fee._

 

Confirm the transfer fee before ordering; some local shops expect up to 10% -15% of the firearm price in addition to the flat fee to make up for "lost profit". It might pay to shop this.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Confirm the transfer fee before ordering; some local shops expect up to 10% -15% of the firearm price in addition to the flat fee to make up for "lost profit". It might pay to shop this._

 

Yea, thanks for the tip. It turns out the fee is only $25 for at my gun range. 

 I went to the range today, and saw the limited edition H&K USPc 45 with the stainless steel slide; and it definitely is making me rethink whether or not I want to fork up the extra $200 for it. I also shot a few compact 9mm and it also made me reconsider which caliber to go with. I shot the H&K uspc 9mm and the Glock 36 and they were just so easy to shoot. 

 One thing is for sure, there are too many damn options with all this. lol


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One thing is for sure, there are too many damn options with all this. lol_

 

Not really. You just need one of each. See my early posts in this thread. And that aint the half of it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just try to get the best gun for the purpose. Never, ever try to get "the last gun you will ever need".


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not really. You just need one of each. See my early posts in this thread. And that aint the half of it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just try to get the best gun for the purpose. Never, ever try to get "the last gun you will ever need"._

 

x a billion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: and I have 27 shotguns, 2 rifles, 4 handguns (which will probably be 6 by the end of the year) to prove the above. Buy one gun to start and then, as you want to do new things, buy a gun for each new purpose 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, buy as many as you want but pick one as your primary gun and get used to it as that is the best path to betterment.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Ok, after much thought and time at the range, I have officially narrowed it down to the Kimber CDP II and the H&K USPc, both in 45ACP. I have shot a few of the H&K, but do not have a way to try out the Kimber before a purchase although I've held it in hand.

 One concern for the kimber, is I'm not sure that I would feel as comfortable carrying cocked and locked as I would with the H&K. Thoughts? Either way, I will not purchase until after my class. I may learn a few things that could sway me either way.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One concern for the kimber, is I'm not sure that I would feel as comfortable carrying cocked and locked as I would with the H&K. Thoughts?_

 

TRIGGER ARGUMENT: With a double action, you have two different trigger pulls to master. One with the hammer down, and every other one with the hammer cocked. There is something to this argument. With a 1911, you also have available many aftermarket trigger/sear parts and can get a much better trigger. There are also far more competent 1911 pistolsmiths. H&K means expensive factory service and no chance for custom mods.

 AFTERMARKET PARTS ARGUMENT (Cont): With H&K, you are pretty much stucke with factory magazines, sights etc. With a 1911, you have a wide range of aftermarket parts that are actually better than stock. Check out Brownells.com and ask for their 1911 catalogue.

 I've been carrying a 1911 cocked and locked most days for the past four decades. Got used to it promptly and there have been zero problems.

 BTW, the components of pistol accuracy are a trigger that breaks cleanly around 4# and good visible sights. With those, any well made (and non-defective) pistol in a major caliber should be able to shoot better than most of us can.


----------



## mrarroyo

After shooting many guns I always come back to the 1911, it just fits me right (flat spring cover). Currently thinking about picking up a Baby Browning! Not to be carried but mostly for their uniqueness, hard to believe they sold for $60 in 1968.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, after much thought and time at the range, I have officially narrowed it down to the Kimber CDP II and the H&K USPc, both in 45ACP. _

 

I don't want to belabor the point, but I wouldn't have an HK with TDA (traditional double action) trigger. They are horrendous triggers. Make very sure you are buying a HK with the LEM trigger. The LEM's come in multiple variants. It may be difficult to find, but I would try and locate the 4.5-5.5# variant. LEM equiped HK's, in general, are hard to find, unfortunately. 

 I've looked into HK's bad service reputation. The deal is with HK parts. They don't have anything and their service is bad. HK repair is a different story. Most say very good things about repair. I just read one account where a person had her gun back in two days. HK overnighted it to her. 

 If you buy the HK, you can also send it to Bill Springfield for a trigger job if you are so inclined. He can also install a LEM kit if available. Bill is widely known for his work. I'm not sure what this does to the HK warranty, though. Gray's Guns is the 'best' for HK work but pricey.

Bill Springfield - www.TriggerWork.net


----------



## fenixdown110




----------



## Old Pa

^^Need one of them in a 20 guage. Just the thing for walking the dogs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




^^


----------



## fenixdown110

There's a handgun version too.


----------



## Born2bwire

Oh boy! Zip guns!


----------



## fenixdown110

These as well.


----------



## Old Pa

Incorporating a firearm into another useful tool just raises exponentially the opportunity for violating one or more of the Four Rules.


----------



## Buff

I need to get pictures. I've got:

 M1 Garand
 AR15 Carbine from Rock River w/ front grip/rails
 50AE Desert Eagle
 40 S&W Springfield Armory XD
 FN Five Seven
 Remington 870 Express 12 Gauge


----------



## Raez

I need pictures as well. My father and I went on somewhat of a semi-auto rifle buying spree this year...

 RIFLES:
 Steyr Aug (gem #3) 
 Smith & Wesson M&P AR15 Magpul Edition
 FNH PS90
 Colt LE6940
 Colt Accurized (i kid you not) Rifle
 Accuracy International Arctic Warfare (gem #2)
 FNH FNAR
 ...I think I am missing one or two.

 Pistols:
 Sig P226
 Sig P229
 HK .45
 Kimber Custom Covert II
 Kimber Ultra Carry II
 Beretta 92FC (no, not FS)
 S&W .357 Magnum
 Ruger LCP
 FNH 5-7
 I'm missing quite a few.

 SHOTGUNS:
 That's my dad's area of business, but uhh, to put in Head-Fi terms...he could have QUITE A FEW HE90s for the price of his shotguns.


----------



## sn4ke1

just took some quick pics with my phone


 Krieghoff K-80 with a Briley Tube Set with a few 100k rounds through it
 I send it to Germany every year for service and its been refinished once "i should probably get it done again"


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sn4ke1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Krieghoff K-80 with a Briley Tube Set with a few 100k rounds through it
 I send it to Germany every year for service and its been refinished once "i should probably get it done again"_

 

Where do you live that you send the gun to Germany? I assume you're in the USA because of the Briley tubes (USA manufacturer used for USA-style game). If so, consider a bit of a cost savings and send the gun to Krieghoff USA in PA; their service is truly first rate.

 Here's my K-80:










 I had the stock changed so it's now wearing this wood:






 I also have a matching K-20 3-bbl set but I don't seem to have any pix of it.


----------



## sn4ke1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where do you live that you send the gun to Germany? I assume you're in the USA because of the Briley tubes (USA manufacturer used for USA-style game). If so, consider a bit of a cost savings and send the gun to Krieghoff USA in PA; their service is truly first rate.

 I also have a matching K-20 3-bbl set but I don't seem to have any pix of it._

 

I live in Michigan, Work in Texas, and am getting moved to Spangdahlem Germany permanently in 2 months

 Beautiful wood by the way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am planning this year "2010" to upgrade my wood once i get settled in Germany

 Im guessing you shoot skeet, hopefully not trap 
 and take some pictures of the k-20


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sn4ke1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im guessing you shoot skeet, hopefully not trap 
 and take some pictures of the k-20_

 

Definitely not trap! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I started out shooting Skeet many years ago and have slowly transitioned over to sporting clays. I shoot basically twice a week and I don't think I've shot 20 rounds of skeet this year. I did shoot skeet for the first time in three months this past weekend when the weather wasn't quite warm enough for sporting clays. On the first round I proceeded to miss H1, Option H1, L2, and then run the next 97. When I remember what I'm doing, I can do it pretty well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The K-80 above is a sporting clays gun, 32" barrels and the whole ilk. I bought it to replace a Perazzi MX-2000. I do have a Beretta ASE90 with Kolar tubes that is my serious skeet gun. I vastly prefer Briley products to Kolar but living less than 50 miles from the Kolar factory has its perks (plus Rags is a member of my Gun Club so we get a discount).

 Here's a rather poor photo I did find of the K-20 (it's the second gun, the Perazzi is the one in front):


----------



## Speex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* 
_I started out shooting Skeet many years ago_

 

:O

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Urban Dictionary* 
_"Skeet" is actually a form of birth control practiced by the African-American tribes of North America near the beginning of the 21st Centruy. Visionaries of the time (such as Lil Jon and Nelly) recognized the inevitable and everpresent danger of overpopulation in their land and decided to take action. They discovered an ancient form of birth control used by their ancestors that involved "pulling out and shooting" (much like skeet shooting) during sexual intercourse, as to not impregnate the female, or "biatch"._


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Speex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_:O_

 

Seriously? You use Urban Dictionary for your reference on this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Skeet shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## sn4ke1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Definitely not trap! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I started out shooting Skeet many years ago and have slowly transitioned over to sporting clays. I shoot basically twice a week and I don't think I've shot 20 rounds of skeet this year. I did shoot skeet for the first time in three months this past weekend when the weather wasn't quite warm enough for sporting clays. On the first round I proceeded to miss H1, Option H1, L2, and then run the next 97. When I remember what I'm doing, I can do it pretty well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The K-80 above is a sporting clays gun, 32" barrels and the whole ilk. I bought it to replace a Perazzi MX-2000. I do have a Beretta ASE90 with Kolar tubes that is my serious skeet gun. I vastly prefer Briley products to Kolar but living less than 50 miles from the Kolar factory has its perks (plus Rags is a member of my Gun Club so we get a discount).

 Here's a rather poor photo I did find of the K-20 (it's the second gun, the Perazzi is the one in front):_

 

I love sporting clays but I'm horrible at it along with 5 stand
 I started shooting when I was 10 with my grandpa 
 Started competition shooting at 14 with a Beretta 682gold 3 barrel set
 I went to college for a bit
 and finally joined the Air Force at 20 to shoot on their team

 thats where i am now, i just got through basic and tech school waiting to get to my permanent base before i can start shooting regularly. right now i can only get out once a week on the weekends to shoot.


----------



## schweinhund

Just a couple of em


----------



## bangraman

Nice target


----------



## cyberspyder

I love the homemade magpul


----------



## leftnose

So I finally got around to snapping some pics of my new toy (it's the one on top with a few of my other toys for comparison):














 Sorry for the poorest of poor quality photos but that's the best I can manage in the dead of winter this late at night with no natural light. I'd rather spend my money on guns, headphones, pens, or watches than studio lights and macro lenses!


----------



## Hanafuda

Hey, there's a gun thread on head.fi!! Who knew? lol.

 Got these two for Christmas to complement my S&W M&P9. The M&P chucks out 17+1 of reliable 124gr. +P Gold Dots all day long (about 2500 rds through it so far) but it aint as pretty so no good pics of it.

 Ruger MkIII Hunter. I've since added the VQ adjustable trigger, sear, and extractor to this one. Next up will be a red dot ... the factory adjustable sights are a PITA. 





 Full zoot Kahr PM9 - blackened DLC and night sights. The pocket rocket. Note Chapstick prop for scale. 6+1 of 9mm, or 7+1 with the extended mag. About 200 rds so far, not a hiccup.






 The gun hobby and the audio hobby wage constant war in my wallet.


----------



## leftnose

I like those little Kahrs. Sometime I wish there were CC in IL so that I could have a whole other set of toys!


----------



## EchoRepairs

SexyPista 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... pitty no constution as such in britian xD


----------



## DarkSpoon

you guys have some really impressive collections. most of my guns are in my gun safe at my parents place. there i have a Ruger 10/22, 2 Remington model 1100's, a .410 and some generic Chinese made bolt action .22 that is actually a really nice shooter. With me i have my Glock 23 loaded with Winchester 180gr Bonded JHP's.


----------



## Bill St. Clair

Here's my Marlin 444P, with a belt-load of hand-loaded ammo. It's sporting a Wild West Guns rear sight.






 And here's the 444P again, pictured with its little brother, an 1894P in .44 magnum:






 And my under-the-bed shotgun, photoshopped a bit:


----------



## C38368

A couple of mine, snapped for another forum. Figured I could share 'em here as well:


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

What type of revolver is that?


----------



## C38368

It's a Colt Official Police, c. 1944.


----------



## C38368

Kinda dead thread. Sorry for the bit of necromancy, but I just have to:


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *C38368* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kinda dead thread. Sorry for the bit of necromancy, but I just have to:_

 

What rifle is that? looks familiar.


----------



## Bill St. Clair

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What rifle is that? looks familiar._

 

Looks to me like an M1, the rifle that won WWII. Holds an 8-round en-bloc clip of .30-06.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bill St. Clair* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks to me like an M1, the rifle that won WWII. Holds an 8-round en-bloc clip of .30-06._

 

Indeed it is.


----------



## Bill St. Clair

Usually called an "M1 Garand". Don't know why I forgot that yesterday. The M1A also uses the Garand action. It has a box magazine, usually holding 20 rounds of .308. The Ruger Mini-14 & Mini Thirty also have the Garand action.


----------



## Old Pa

Was Regal's question about the Garand or about the full-stock Mannlicher carbine in the earlier post?


----------



## regal

C38368's Garand, haven't seen one in a while they have become fairly rare rifles. I always wished the Ruskies had made a semi 7.62x54 that could be bought surplus for cheap.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_C38368's Garand, haven't seen one in a while they have become fairly rare rifles._

 

Not so much. They are pretty readily available through the CMP.

CMP Home
CMP Sales


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bill St. Clair* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Usually called an "M1 Garand". Don't know why I forgot that yesterday. The M1A also uses the Garand action. It has a box magazine, usually holding 20 rounds of .308. The Ruger Mini-14 & Mini Thirty also have the Garand action._

 

Strictly speaking, the Army knew it as the "United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1". The "Garand" namesake is that of the rifle's eponymous designer, John C Garand. 
 Not sure if this came into use for the same reason that "Colt" became synonymous with "M1911", or because the simultaneous existence of the "United States Carbine, Caliber .30, M1" (better known simply as the M1 Carbine).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not so much. They are pretty readily available through the CMP.

CMP Home
CMP Sales_

 

Just so. But apparently there was a time when gun shows and the like were awash with surplus M1s in the same way that they're still awash with Mosin-Nagants. If that ever was the case, I'm too young to have experienced it.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *C38368* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Not sure if this came into use for the same reason that "Colt" became synonymous with "M1911"_

 

Which was, of course, John Moses Browning's iteration of the world's finest cavalry pistol.

  Quote:


 I always wished the Ruskies had made a semi 7.62x54 that could be bought surplus for cheap. 
 

Fifteen or twenty years ago, there was a glut of Dragunov copies selling for about what they were actually worth (ie. cheap).


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which was, of course, John Moses Browning's iteration of the world's finest cavalry pistol._

 

Err... and that would be which one, exactly?


----------



## Uncle Erik

C38368, is that also a Springfield 1911? I have one just like that - a fine pistol. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've meant to pick up a M1 one of these days. My grandfather carried one in WW II and I grew up hearing plenty of praise for it, as well as for his 1911.

 Not to derail the thread, but I _love_ your table! One of the old Craftsman/Mission tables in quartersawn white oak, isn't it? Nice patina, too! I've had one much like it for years. New furniture just isn't the same.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *C38368* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Err... and that would be which one, exactly?_

 

John Moses Browning designed the Model 1911 .45ACP pistol and cartridge. The Model 1911 was made by Colt, at first, under license. The cartridge was originally designed around a 200 grain bullet, but the Army armory had a backstock of 230 grain jacketed revolver bullets which the staff there elected to substitute. The Model 1911 was the first purpose-designed semi-automatic cavalry pistol. It last saw active service as a cavalry pistol in 1941 where is was again employed to great success in a U.S. Army cavalry charge.


----------



## C38368

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Old Pa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John Moses Browning designed the Model 1911 .45ACP pistol and cartridge. The Model 1911 was made by Colt, at first, under license. The cartridge was originally designed around a 200 grain bullet, but the Army armory had a backstock of 230 grain jacketed revolver bullets which the staff there elected to substitute. The Model 1911 was the first purpose-designed semi-automatic cavalry pistol. It last saw active service as a cavalry pistol in 1941 where is was again employed to great success in a U.S. Army cavalry charge._

 

Yes, of course. I must've misunderstood your last post--I thought you meant to say that the 1911 itself was derived from an earlier cavalry pistol. JMB designed it (I was under the impression that he did so for Colt) based on several of his earlier designs, most notably the M1900.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_C38368, is that also a Springfield 1911? I have one just like that - a fine pistol. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've meant to pick up a M1 one of these days. My grandfather carried one in WW II and I grew up hearing plenty of praise for it, as well as for his 1911.

 Not to derail the thread, but I love your table! One of the old Craftsman/Mission tables in quartersawn white oak, isn't it? Nice patina, too! I've had one much like it for years. New furniture just isn't the same. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It is a Springer, the basic basic GI model (nowhere more evident than in the sights!), and I love it to death. And pretty close on the table. It belonged to my great grandmother and has been around since at least 1918. It is oak, and it's finished in the Mission style, but is rather more ornate down below, sitting on a central pedestal with four claw-footed legs radiating from it. Not rightly sure what style that would be! And you're right--there's just something about antique furniture for sure


----------



## jimmyjames8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not so much. They are pretty readily available through the CMP.

CMP Home
CMP Sales_

 

Also, there are lots of M1 Garand "clinics" that local gun clubs and US Military and National Guard bases/camps put on thru out the year where you can attend a class on the M1 and military style hi power rifles shooting and then go out to the range and shoot a 50 to 60 round course of fire with coaching for $35 to $60. I attended one back a couple of months ago. Had a great time and won the novice class. They supply the guns and the ammo. Open to the public, usually with a pre-registration necessary to secure a slot.

 Just FYI...a Garand with all new furniture and barrel on a refinished surplus receiver goes for $1000. Beaters and other grades start at $350 and go to $3500.


----------



## outlawdon

Just a few of mine...


----------



## Audio Jester

I personally don't like guns, but you have to admit that they are beautifully designed. It is amazing what these things are capable of considering what weapons were like 100 - 300 years ago.


----------



## fenixdown110

I'm looking to buy one soon. What would you guys recommend? A Glock? If I could get my hands on one, an original 1911 would be my choice.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking to buy one soon. What would you guys recommend? A Glock? If I could get my hands on one, an original 1911 would be my choice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What do you want to do with it?

 What do you mean by original 1911? They've never been out of production, though some manufacturers have changed the design a bit with firing pin safeties, beavertails, flared ejection ports, etc.. However, you can get a Springfield GI grade that's pretty darn close to the 1911A1 spec.


----------



## outlawdon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking to buy one soon. What would you guys recommend? A Glock? If I could get my hands on one, an original 1911 would be my choice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

For a handgun? What's the intended use? Personal defense? Range shooting?


----------



## regal

What do you guys recommend for a reliable but inexpensive 5.45x39 semi ?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *outlawdon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a few of mine...
_

 

What's the specs on the bolt gun. I have very similar set up, though I suspect less pricey, that I use for F-class.


----------



## outlawdon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the specs on the bolt gun. I have very similar set up, though I suspect less pricey, that I use for F-class._

 

Just a Savage 12 FVSS in .223 with 1/9 twist barrel. It has a Bell and Carlson green webbing tactical stock. Scope is a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50. I've shot to 1000 yards accurately. Great reasonably priced accurate rifle. Not really that pricey. Rifle itself was around $750. Stock was $200.


----------



## outlawdon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you guys recommend for a reliable but inexpensive 5.45x39 semi ?_

 

Do you want a AK or AR platform weapon?

 Check these...

Lancaster Arms AK-74 5.45x39 Rifle





Russian Arsenal SGL31 Saiga 5.45x39 Rifle





Smith & Wesson M&P15R 5.45x39 Rifle


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leftnose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you want to do with it?

 What do you mean by original 1911? They've never been out of production, though some manufacturers have changed the design a bit with firing pin safeties, beavertails, flared ejection ports, etc.. However, you can get a Springfield GI grade that's pretty darn close to the 1911A1 spec._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *outlawdon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For a handgun? What's the intended use? Personal defense? Range shooting?_

 

It would be defense and occasionally for the shooting range.


----------



## DarkSpoon

can't go wrong with a Glock. pick your caliber.


----------



## outlawdon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be defense and occasionally for the shooting range._

 

Glock 19 or 17. Both 9mm.


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you guys recommend for a reliable but inexpensive 5.45x39 semi ?_

 

Saiga IZ 240. Quality is about as good as you'll find in AK pattern rifles, plus a < $400 price tag doesn't hurt too much. 18 USC _922_(r) compliance is also pretty easy to deal with if you're going to unneuter it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be defense and occasionally for the shooting range._

 

Maverick 88 Security and a Ruger 22/45. 

 If the primary purpose for a firearm is defensive and you're not carrying it with you, there's no reason to constrain yourself to a pistol. Shotguns are cheaper to purchase, easier to use, faster to aim, and have better terminal effectiveness. And if you're not shooting thousands of rounds through it a year, a Maverick 88 will serve you was well as anything else at a very low price.

 As far as the Ruger, .22lr's are the most cost effective way to learn how to shoot a pistol well and make for great range companions. If you're serious about firearms as a hobby, you'll end up with a .22 pistol of some sort or another anyways.


----------



## fenixdown110

I'll keep that in mind. I'll be having fun picking one out I know for sure.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marvin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saiga IZ 240. Quality is about as good as you'll find in AK pattern rifles, plus a < $400 price tag doesn't hurt too much. 18 USC 922(r) compliance is also pretty easy to deal with if you're going to unneuter it.



 ._

 

I heard these have bad ergonomics if you don't convert them to the AK pistol grip, any truth to that?


----------



## marvin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I heard these have bad ergonomics if you don't convert them to the AK pistol grip, any truth to that?_

 

Ergonomics definitely aren't the best. The trigger suffers due to the relocation and the balance is even more nose heavy than a standard AK pattern rifle.

 Then again, $350 for a semi-auto rifle that reliably shoots dirt cheap ammo with decent accuracy ain't a bad deal.


----------



## Crowe09

I only have Smith & Wesson .45 ACP Chief's Special — Model CS45 that I used at firing. I also have airgun, not too dangerous but good for defense. As of now, guns are prohibited here because of the upcoming election.


----------



## Old Pa

Starting work on a new bushcraft rifle based on a Ruger 77/22M synthetic.  First we'll do barrel break-in with a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm AO scope, then determine ammunition preference among the available 40 grain solid loads.  Finally, rework trigger components and install the permanent scope, probably a Leupold 3-9x40 EFR lightweight.  The idea here is the lightest possible rifle/ammunition package for the remote North American wilderness and self-sufficiency.


----------



## blazeops

Not sure if I am part of Gun-fi yet because my guns are duty weapons. I have a Sig Sauer 226 DAO as my duty and a S&W 3953 DAO as my BUG. Unfortunately they have to be DAO with no safeties. I think the trigger pull on my 226 is at least 14 #. 

 I have been thinking of participating in an IDPA or USAPA to hone my skills and compete. I would use my 226 for fun and another gun to compete.

 I have been looking at both a S&W M&P .40 and a Springfield TRP, any Les Baer or a DW Valor.


----------



## regal

Working on an budget AIM-74 clone,  hope to have pics soon.


----------



## SDDL-UP

I could have just about anything I want and I've settled into CZ-75 handguns and Remington long guns for the most part.  I may have to try the new Savage in 338 Lapua however!  I currently own 34 firearms, my goal is to have one for each year of my life so I'm a few behind...


----------



## Lex

A couple of mine. . .

   
  Springfield XD9mm Sub Compact (13+1) - Modified for daily carry with stippled front and backstraps plus some griptape up top for one-handed slide operation.

   
   
  Kimber TLE II .45 (8+1) - Modified with Wilson Combat MSH & Larry Davidson G10 grips.


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


lex said:


> Kimber TLE II .45 (8+1) - Modified with Wilson Combat MSH & Larry Davidson G10 grips.


 
   
  I have the same grips but in a fatty configuration with a relief cut for the mag release.  I can't use them as the completely chew up my hands.  The gun doesn't slip, though.  I'm currently using a set of Esmeralda cocobolo grips.  Not quite as functional but they look nice and don't destroy my hands.


----------



## Lex

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Quote:
> 
> I have the same grips but in a fatty configuration with a relief cut for the mag release.  I can't use them as the completely chew up my hands.  The gun doesn't slip, though.  I'm currently using a set of Esmeralda cocobolo grips.  Not quite as functional but they look nice and don't destroy my hands.


 
   
   
  Those Esmereldas are some fine grips, I love the looks of a 1911 dressed in well crafted wood. (post a pic?)
   
  I hear ya about that G10, it's VERY aggressive in the grip department. Range sessions of any significant length with them make a glove essential. Wonderfully fast and accurate grip acquisition though.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





blazeops said:


> Not sure if I am part of Gun-fi yet because my guns are duty weapons. I have a Sig Sauer 226 DAO as my duty and a S&W 3953 DAO as my BUG. Unfortunately they have to be DAO with no safeties. I think the trigger pull on my 226 is at least 14 #.
> 
> I have been thinking of participating in an IDPA or USAPA to hone my skills and compete. I would use my 226 for fun and another gun to compete.
> 
> I have been looking at both a S&W M&P .40 and a Springfield TRP, any Les Baer or a DW Valor.


 
  Welcome.  If you're part of the gun culture brotherhood, and not a poser or a wannabee, you're at the right spot on Head-Fi.
   
  My prairie dog hunting partner retired from the IL state police as a master sergeant in charge of their entire weapons training administration.  A couple of years ago, I got him started in IDPA competition.  IMHO, IDPA is more realistic than USPSA has become; IDPA is more like where ISPC started out.  My aforementioned hunting associate concurs.  You will find that many IDPA course of fire have input from DEA and other major weapons training programs.  For what you say you wish to accomplish, that might be your most direct route.  Good luck and stay safe out there.  And thanks for your service.


----------



## regal

Camera sucks but put together a budget AIM-74 clone (has a real romanian receiver, folding stock) ,  relatively inexpensive for AK-74's.


----------



## blazeops

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Welcome.  If you're part of the gun culture brotherhood, and not a poser or a wannabee, you're at the right spot on Head-Fi.
> 
> My prairie dog hunting partner retired from the IL state police as a master sergeant in charge of their entire weapons training administration.  A couple of years ago, I got him started in IDPA competition.  IMHO, IDPA is more realistic than USPSA has become; IDPA is more like where ISPC started out.  My aforementioned hunting associate concurs.  You will find that many IDPA course of fire have input from DEA and other major weapons training programs.  For what you say you wish to accomplish, that might be your most direct route.  Good luck and stay safe out there.  And thanks for your service.


 

 Thanks for the welcome. And thanks for the appreciation of service. We don't get thanked too often in NYC (by either civilians or rank).
   
  I was reading more about IDPA and realism. I agree with you. It is definitely the way to go for my goals. I will most likely start out handling each course of fire tactically rather than quickly. I want to be tactically sound (ie reloading in cover, etc) and not pick up bad habits.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





lex said:


> Those Esmereldas are some fine grips, I love the looks of a 1911 dressed in well crafted wood. (post a pic?)


 

 Not the best pics but here you go:


----------



## Lex

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Not the best pics but here you go:


 

 Beautiful, classic 1911 look. 
   
  Cheers!


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I have just come across this thread. I have dealt with firearms licensing in the past under The Firearms Act 1968 (and subsequent updates) here in the UK. Basically, to have a firearm it has to be of an approved type (so no machine guns!) and you have to have a licence (which takes a minimum of 1 months worth of detailed background enquiries) and you have to have approved security for the weapons.
   
  My question is about security. I see a number of pictures of guns with what appear to be trigger guards, but is that required or just for safety? Do you have to keep guns whilst not in use in locked firearms cabinets which are out of site of any visitor to your house and are bolted to a wall and or floor? (That is the requirement here.)


----------



## nickosiris

But why no dissent permitted? Are you above reproach? If you post on this site professing your love for Sennheiser headphones, or Apple iPods, would I not be allowed to say that I don't like them and tell you why? I don't get it.
   
   
  Quote: 





necropimp said:


> yeah i know... *-fi gets on some people's nerves...
> 
> but i've noticed a fair number of us are gun owners
> 
> ...


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





lex said:


> Beautiful, classic 1911 look.


 

 Thank you! 
   
  It's a bit of a range queen as we don't have CCW in IL.  I've swapped the MSH in the pic for one that is arched but still with a magwell as that seems to fit my larger hands a bit better.  The OEM plastic MSH is just wrong!  I also took out the full length guide rod and I'm running an Ed Brown standard GI setup.
   
  I've also been thinking of switching the grips to something in Alder as I think the contrast would look good:
   

   
  But I don't think that Alder will checker and I want a bit more security in my grip than plain grips would allow.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> My question is about security. I see a number of pictures of guns with what appear to be trigger guards, but is that required or just for safety? Do you have to keep guns whilst not in use in locked firearms cabinets which are out of site of any visitor to your house and are bolted to a wall and or floor? (That is the requirement here.)


 

 Statutorially mandated firearms security requirements vary state by sate, but some form of locking device when children are normally present in the home is becoming more common.  Most new firearms now sold here are equipped with a locking device, either trigger or action.   I keep my firearms out of sight and in a heavy locked safe because years ago I decided I was responsible for them while they were in my possession.  There is a myriad of gun laws here, federal, state and local.  Difficult to keep all of them straight.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> But why no dissent permitted? Are you above reproach? If you post on this site professing your love for Sennheiser headphones, or Apple iPods, would I not be allowed to say that I don't like them and tell you why? I don't get it.


 

 Because this is not a thread for the philosophical or political discussion of firearms and their ownership.  It is a thread of firearm afficianadoes discussing the objects of their interests and affections.  The analogy to what you are suggesting is posting completely anti-headphone comments in any of these forums.  It would be just hostility and attack.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Old Pa, is it the case that all permit issuing authorities have some sort of security requirements or is it more ad hoc? I take it that there are places where you can buy a gun and take it home and keep it in a drawer next to the bed. Can you leave it in your car?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Starting work on a new bushcraft rifle based on a Ruger 77/22M synthetic.  First we'll do barrel break-in with a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm AO scope, then determine ammunition preference among the available 40 grain solid loads.  Finally, rework trigger components and install the permanent scope, probably a Leupold 3-9x40 EFR lightweight.  The idea here is the lightest possible rifle/ammunition package for the remote North American wilderness and self-sufficiency.


 

 Reminds me Llewelyn Moss  from "No Country For Old Men" for some reason. The opening scene is the first time I have every noticed someone pick up their brass on film.
   
  My latest  purchase is a service rifle CMP upper from White Oak Armamemt for high power rifle comp.


----------



## nickosiris

But there are such posts. Some people think that headphones are are a poor second to loudspeakers and are allowed to have their say. Then, headphone nuts are allowed to respond. It's the closed-in-advance debate that bothers me here. Hostility and attack are things you have to contend with in a debate. Why should anything be different here?
  
  Quote: 





old pa said:


> Because this is not a thread for the philosophical or political discussion of firearms and their ownership.  It is a thread of firearm afficianadoes discussing the objects of their interests and affections.  The analogy to what you are suggesting is posting completely anti-headphone comments in any of these forums.  It would be just hostility and attack.


----------



## marvin

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> But there are such posts. Some people think that headphones are are a poor second to loudspeakers and are allowed to have their say. Then, headphone nuts are allowed to respond. It's the closed-in-advance debate that bothers me here. Hostility and attack are things you have to contend with in a debate. Why should anything be different here?


 

 This is Head-Fi. There is a "no politics/religion" discussion ban in place. Discussion of certain firearms topics invariably falls into the realms of politics and religion. Discussions of headphones generally do not. If you still want to say your piece on the matter, there are plenty of other forums that will allow you to do so.
   
  Plus, you do realize that you've quoted a post that's over three years old right?


----------



## nickosiris

I too have a "no politics and religion" ban in place (it's quite unforgiving) and I would never dream of bringing such subjects into a headphonecentric forum area, so no problems there.
   
  I am a little late in discovering Head-Fi (despite possessing headphones and things to plug them into for many years) , so I have a little catching up to do. True, the thread was started three years ago, but it still attracts regular posts, so it's still up for discussion I would have thought?
   
  So, if I avoid politics and religion I can debate the ethics of small arms and their possession here? I would really like to understand the preordained rules without upsetting anyone.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> So, if I avoid politics and religion I can debate the ethics of small arms and their possession here?


 

 Absolutely, I bought a 70's series Colt 1911 for a song a few months ago. The Dremel genius that owned it previouly screwed up the feed ramp and barrel so badly it didn't feed correctly. I had to take it to a local smith --he builds race guns-- and have the frame machined out for a ramped barrel.
   
  That guy really screw up that Colt. I found what he did very unethical. How about you?


----------



## nickosiris

That's terrible news. Selling items that are not fit for purpose is ethically very wrong imho. Did you get your money back from the seller? If you paid by credit card that shouldn't have presented too much of a problem... how did it go?
  
  Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Absolutely, I bought a 70's series Colt 1911 for a song a few months ago. The Dremel genius that owned it previouly screwed up the feed ramp and barrel so badly it didn't feed correctly. I had to take it to a local smith --he builds race guns-- and have the frame machined out for a ramped barrel.
> 
> That guy really screw up that Colt. I found what he did very unethical. How about you?


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> That's terrible news. Selling items that are not fit for purpose is ethically very wrong imho. Did you get your money back from the seller? If you paid by credit card that shouldn't have presented too much of a problem... how did it go?


 

 Sorry, I was unclear. I got it from a guy who got it from the guy who ruined it. The guy I got it from was honest and so was the guy he got it from. Both guys knew it needed work, and I knew what I, the guy buying it, was getting into, and he (the second guy) sold it to me for dirt cheap.


----------



## Samgotit

I figure a few guys here might want to see it. Maybe even a girl or two. So with out further ado:
   
  Sorry for the offensive nature of the photo. The camera is only 3.2mb and all I had for a backdrop was some new pants.


----------



## nickosiris

So the ruiner, the seller, and yourself all knew the situation with the item. I don't think that's really unethical then if everybody was being honest. So how come you thought it was?


----------



## Samgotit

Because it's a series 70 Colt commander.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> So the ruiner, the seller, and yourself all knew the situation with the item. I don't think that's really unethical then if everybody was being honest. So how come you thought it was?


 

 I see what you mean. No, the unethical part it that someone took a Dremel to it in the first place. That's pretty horrible to do to any Colt.


----------



## nickosiris

Ah, I misunderstood; my apologies. I thought you were upset that you'd been sold something under false pretences.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





nickosiris said:


> Ah, I misunderstood; my apologies. I thought you were upset that you'd been sold something under false pretences.


 
  Oh, no.

 A fool cutting on a Colt is like letting Christo cover the Louvre.


----------



## boomana

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Oh, no.
> 
> A fool cutting on a Colt is like letting Christo cover the Louvre.


----------



## PhoneLover94

I must admit...I am a fan of the Mosin-Nagant M91/30. It is a beautiful rifle with tons of rich history. I advise all who have time to look up this cheap, powerful, and exquisite rifle.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

I was "this" close to buying a Mosin Nagant at a gun show a few months back. Never did though, mainly cause I have limited areas to really shoot around here short from paying at a range (which I'd rather not do). I do have a k98 Yugoslavian Mauser that I do like very much. But boy, that little short version the mosin is a little canon!


----------



## regal

I have a Mosin M38,  same rifle just shorter,  very nice affordable deer rifle.
   
  Want to get one of the Fin Mosin39's,  supposed to have great acuracy.


----------



## PhoneLover94

All Mosin's have great accuracy =) They are amazing all around rifles, and the CHEAPEST rifle I can find. Even cheaper than a .22! I have seen Mosins for like $70! It is incredible. If only I was 18........


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> I was "this" close to buying a Mosin Nagant at a gun show a few months back. Never did though, mainly cause I have limited areas to really shoot around here short from paying at a range (which I'd rather not do). I do have a k98 Yugoslavian Mauser that I do like very much. But boy, that little short version the mosin is a little canon!


 


 I had one of the Mosin Nagant carbines.  Fun little gun but a bit rough in the mechanism and I hated the straight bolt.  Honestly, the K98 mausers and their clones are the best.  I also had a Yugo K98k.  Man, the blueing on it and the laminate stock was beautiful.  Also had a M48 which was also in immaculate condition.  I kind of liked it for the fact that it had a slightly shorter bolt and did not have a stop on the magazine plate to keep the bolt from closing on an empty magazine.


----------



## boomana

Well, after staying away from purchasing new pistols for a bit, with the heat of summer on, and considering my girl clothes, I picked up these today:  two seecamp .380s (had been on order for almost 20 months), and a Springfield EMP 9mm, which is a really good size for me.  
   

   

   
   
   
  (swiped pics from the Internet)
   
  I'll be going to the range tomorrow for some fun.


----------



## mrarroyo

Nice new toys you have there Vicky, hope they are accurate for their intended function.


----------



## leftnose

I know the EMP has a scaled frame but I'm really jonesing for a government sized 9mm 1911.  The one I've been looking at is Springfield's loaded model in stainless with adjustable sights (this gun, as with all my handguns will be a range queen).  The pic of that EMP isn't helping!


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





boomana said:


> Well, after staying away from purchasing new pistols for a bit, with the heat of summer on, and considering my girl clothes, I picked up these today:  two seecamp .380s (had been on order for almost 20 months), and a Springfield EMP 9mm, which is a really good size for me.


 

 My LCP in a De Santis pocket holster certainly severs a purpose. You got the King Louis of .380s there.
   
   
  I bought a HK P7 to celebrate incorporation day.


----------



## Samgotit

Picked up the tactical stapler. HK P7, now I need the M8.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> tactical stapler.


----------



## RuiCanela

Around here when we want to fight, we use our hands!.....large number of fire arms=large numbers of violent crimes...


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


ruicanela said:


> Around here when we want to fight, we use our hands!.....large number of fire arms=large numbers of violent crimes...


 

 Actually, if you read the studies that have been done on this subject, you will see that crime has gone down in states here in the US that allow concealed carry.  Crime also went down in Washington D.C. after the Supreme Court allowed residents to have guns in their homes . Hopefully the same will happen here in Chicago.
   
  Also, firearms have far more uses that just 'fighting.'  There are many different styles of competition and recreation that one can undertake using a gun.


----------



## RuiCanela

I agree with you when you say that .."firearms have far more uses that just 'fighting.'  There are many different styles of competition and recreation that one can undertake using a gun." But check this http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Hurrah, we come bottom of that list. But there is someone on the run at the moment in our biggest manhunt ever after he shot and killed one and injured two others. It looks seriously strange armed police officers walking village streets.
   
  On the other hand, knife crime is a problem, particularly with teenage gangs.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  
  Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Picked up the tactical stapler. HK P7, now I need the M8.


 

 The pebbles came from Bed Bath and Beyond.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





old pa said:


>


 

 Old Pa, what do/did you use for IDPA?


----------



## JxK

I'm not big on hunting or collecting guns, so for me the only reason to carry something is for CCW. Which basically means I hope to god I never have to use the thing.  With that in mind, I think the best ccw weapon on the market right now is the kel-tec P3AT. 6 + 1 of Speer LE Gold Dot 90gr. .380 will stop any reasonable danger in its tracks. The thing is tiny, so it's easy to hide just about anywhere. The P3AT is NOT a pleasant weapon to shoot, it's sort of painful actually, but when needed it's reliable and will do the job. Plus it's pretty cheap.


----------



## Uncle Erik

RuiCanela, the unsaid part of those studies is how many acts of violence are actually prevented with firearms. Quite often, simply displaying a gun causes a criminal to back down. That doesn't show up in statistics. If you ever have the pleasure of visiting an area like South Central Los Angeles (now renamed to the more politically correct "South Los Angeles") the value of a firearm will become apparent. I lived there for four years - a Beretta 92FS was a welcome companion.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Old Pa, what do/did you use for IDPA?


 
  Model 1911 Kimber Super Match from their Custom Shop.  BTW, I know I guy who took a P7 to a shooting school and came back to report it got hotter than Dutch love over the three days of extended shooting.


----------



## ozz

Any recommendations on a cleaning kit for 9mm.


----------



## ffdpmaggot

The top gun in the original post is a Mosin Nagant right?


----------



## mythless

Wow they're a lot of beautiful guns here.  Quite of bit of Russian guns here from just a quick run through this thread, but I have not seen a Makarov PM or any of it's clones yet.


----------



## blazeops

Quote: 





ozz said:


> Any recommendations on a cleaning kit for 9mm.


 


 I would recommend a Hoppe's cleaning kit for 9mm, an old tooth brush and old t-shirt/rag.
   
  I personally buy each item that comes in the kit separately. The cap on the solvent that comes in the kit is too small to dip my tooth brush in. You will need to pour it in the cap to dip the brush. It is much easier (and less messy) dipping the brush in the larger solvent bottle.
   
  I don't recall how many patches are included in the kit but I purchased Hoppe's Gun Cleaning 500 patch pack which should last for awhile. 
   
  I keep everything in tupperware and put it in my range bag.


----------



## DarkSpoon

i prefer using a glass eyedropper to put the hoppes on my brushes. that way i dont have to worry about spilling it everywhere as i have done on a few occasions. just fill the dropper up and put the top back on the bottle.


----------



## wareagle69

You might want to give these a try:
   
  http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23355&catid=875
   
  Pour your solvent in (good idea to label the bottle) and you can squirt solvent in a very directed stream down a barrel, on your patches, or anywhere else.  They are inexpensive and work very well.


----------



## Old Pa

The Ruger 77/22M Synthetic bushcraft rifle project continues.  With a 6.5-20x40mm Leupold Vari-X II mounted, zeroing was done during rifle barrel break-in.  Barrel break-in witnessed significant smoothing to the bore.  Since the usual fodder for this rifle will be 40 grain solids and hollowpoints, CCI Maxi-Mags were used.  At the end of barrel-break-in, when you actually had a properly fouled bore, the rifle was shooting to about an inch af fifty yards.  Part of this was using a hard front rest and no rear bag, but the majority of the problem was the stock trigger, which was clean, but broke at 4 pounds, 10.4 ounces.  By the end of the heavy mash, before the break, you could see the crosshairs dancing from the tension.  I ordered and installed a JARD trigger, sear, and spring from Brownells.  Trigger now breaks cleanly at 1 pound 11.3 ounces.  NOTE: trigger work is not difficult, but requires knowledge, dexterity, and careful precision.  The JARD trigger and sear rely upon setscrews to set and hold sear engagement.  These setscrews must be cleaned and degreased so that the blue locktite works properly.  Back to the range to work up accuracy potential.


----------



## jimmyjames8

Picture?


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





jimmyjames8 said:


> Picture?


 


 If this was to me, I was going to photograph and post the rifle when it's completed and its permanent optic is mounted.  Right now, it's a pretty box-stock Ruger 77/22M synthetic as is shown on the Ruger website.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Model 1911 Kimber Super Match from their Custom Shop.  BTW, I know I guy who took a P7 to a shooting school and came back to report it got hotter than Dutch love over the three days of extended shooting.


 
  I wonder if we know the same guy. I know a cat who has been through multiple classes with a M8. Say something derogatory about one and he gets offended.




   
  I just bought a Buck Mark micro. Why I didn't do this one hundred years ago, I don't know. It miffs me that other guns don't come stock with triggers like this.


----------



## regal

Yes you can own a quality AR for $650,  wish headphone amps gave this kind of bang for the buck


----------



## ffdpmaggot

The AR is gas operated, right?


----------



## mythe

It is, you can see the gas tube through the holes on top of the foregrip.
  My all time favorite handgun has to be the Strayer Voit 2011 Infinity.  I'm probably never going to own one though....  1911's are awesome and double stacked para-ordnances are super awesome xD.
  Spent like 300$ on this replica, it's a western arms airsoft pistol though and I hate how it shoots.  The scw3 system really sucks.  It looks pretty good though.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





ffdpmaggot said:


> The AR is gas operated, right?


 

 Yes, but lately there have been two different systems: the original direct action where the gas itself acts against the bolt and piston models which keep some of the gas out of the action by using a piston and an operating rod.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> I just bought a Buck Mark micro. Why I didn't do this one hundred years ago, I don't know. It miffs me that other guns don't come stock with triggers like this.


 

 One of my shooting buddies has a Buck Mark.  The only problem with it is that the magazines are only 10-rounds.  They empty out way too fast!  Those things are way too easy to shoot!


----------



## regal

It is gas,  I have an AK for piston rifle.  I'm not a fan of pistons in AR's,  what appeals to me about my budget AR is it is so light weight and manuverable compared to my AK-74.  With the flip up sights I feel obliged to add a red-dot but I don't know if I want the weight penalty.


----------



## basementdweller

Quote: 





regal said:


> Yes you can own a quality AR for $650,  wish headphone amps gave this kind of bang for the buck


 
   
  The AR Carbine is probably my favorite gun to shoot...I just wish ammo was cheaper.


----------



## Vayate

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> One of my shooting buddies has a Buck Mark.  The only problem with it is that the magazines are only 10-rounds.  They empty out way too fast!  Those things are way too easy to shoot!


 

 Speaking of which...
Browning Buck Mark
H&R Sportsman


----------



## marvin

Quote: 





regal said:


> It is gas,  I have an AK for piston rifle.  I'm not a fan of pistons in AR's,  what appeals to me about my budget AR is it is so light weight and manuverable compared to my AK-74.  With the flip up sights I feel obliged to add a red-dot but I don't know if I want the weight penalty.


 

 A used Aimpoint Comp M2/ML2 is reasonably affordable (~ $300 w/ mount) and should come in at under 8 ounces. The only disadvantage compared to more modern fullsized Aimpoints that battery life is rated for only a year of continuous operation vs 5-7 years for current models. I run a T1 (< 4 ounces with mount) on my lightweight AR, but that's quite a bit more expensive.


----------



## wareagle69

Trying to delete post.  Pictures previewed correctly, but did not show when post was submitted...


----------



## regal

Quote: 





marvin said:


> A used Aimpoint Comp M2/ML2 is reasonably affordable (~ $300 w/ mount) and should come in at under 8 ounces. The only disadvantage compared to more modern fullsized Aimpoints that battery life is rated for only a year of continuous operation vs 5-7 years for current models. I run a T1 (< 4 ounces with mount) on my lightweight AR, but that's quite a bit more expensive.


 

  
   
  I was looking at the Burris Fastfire because it only weghs 2 oz,  would fit with the lightweight theme of this rifle.


----------



## Swingtops

Got a couple for ya - just finished my 1911 porting and DuraCoat
   
  The two guns are a Taurus PT1911 45 ACP and a Sig Sauer P250 in 9mm
   
  Taurus before DuraCoat



   







  And in case you are wondering whether the compensator works check this one out



  Here is the whole collection including my room mates



  So from the top left we have
  M1 Garand, Marlin 45-70, Winchester Model 70 30-06, S&W M&P 15-22, Sig Sauer P250 sub compact 9mm, Sig P250 Full Size 9mm, H&K P30 LE 9mm, S&W .38 spl revolver, S&W K 17 .22 LR, S&W 627 Performance Center .38 spl, Ruger LCP, Browning BPS 12 ga, Benelli M4 12 ga, Winchester 1300 12ga


----------



## mralexosborn

Quote: 





swingtops said:


> Got a couple for ya - just finished my 1911 porting and DuraCoat
> 
> The two guns are a Taurus PT1911 45 ACP and a Sig Sauer P250 in 9mm
> 
> ...


 

 That is an amazing gun collection, wow.
   
  Anyway, I love guns. I fired my first pistol (some Glock 9mm) about two years ago then I knew firearms were something I liked. Since then I have fired a .22 rifle, a S&W .38 Special, a 16 gauge shotgun, an MP5SD, an AR15, and my favorite: the M1911. 
  I am only 15 at the moment and my parents don't own firearms, but luckily I have an uncle and grandfather that are into that sorta thing. Seems like an expensive hobby though...


----------



## jeffreyj900

Very nice pictures in this thread. I have a .22 rifle my father and his brother learned to shoot with. I Also have two pistols: Glock 34 (9 mm) and a Sig P229 (40 mm). Both with night sights. This thread makes me want to go to the range!


----------



## ozz

I have wanted an AR-15 for a long time it may be my next purchase.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I'm extremely happy with my ruger mini 14, as far as pistol goes Sig229 is sweet.


----------



## NapalmK

My dad just bought a Springfield Loaded 1911-A1 in .45. I've shot a decent amount of guns but this one shoots amazingly well and feels effortless. It's really an incredible gun. I can't wait to go back to the range this weekend to relieve some exam-related stress.
   
  I'll have to post a picture of the guns in the family collection.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Sweet collection, Looks like your ready for the Apocalypse lol.
  Quote: 





swingtops said:


> Got a couple for ya - just finished my 1911 porting and DuraCoat
> 
> The two guns are a Taurus PT1911 45 ACP and a Sig Sauer P250 in 9mm
> 
> ...


----------



## marvin

I've been slowly putting together an AR over the past year and am just about finished. 6 lbs 4.6 oz as pictured. Could have probably gotten under my 6 lb target weight if I had gone carbine instead of midlength gas and lost the rail covers, but hey, close enough. I'll probably top it off with a T1 or a TA33 at some point, but right now, all I want is a free weekend to get some range time.


----------



## Samgotit

Interesting, Marvin. I'm considering cobbling one with only weight in mind, starting with a Plum Crazy lower, then a pencil barrel, CF hand guards and so on. Pure anorexic.


----------



## pigmode

I like to keep it simple.


----------



## leftnose

And on to something sort of gun related:
   

   
  This is a shotgun stock that cracked and was no longer suitable for its original purpose.  It was too nice to throw away though, so I got a nice lamp out of the deal.  Don't ask what the stock cost, originally, though.


----------



## pigmode

The first one _is_ mine, and the other a view of my good side.


----------



## mralexosborn

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> The first one _is_ mine, and the other a view of my good side.


 


  They didn't have any at the range I went to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Life experience: avoided.


----------



## pigmode

^ We've been to different ranges.


----------



## Bender

AK74...cheap ammo, 3.5lb trigger, no kick and I can field strip it blindfolded and upside down... I run a Aimpoint Comp M4 on it.
   

   
  Mossberg 500 w/ compensator

   
  And FS2000


----------



## dirkpitt45

I love how that f2000 looks.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





bender said:


> AK74...cheap ammo, 3.5lb trigger, no kick and I can field strip it blindfolded and upside down... I run a Aimpoint Comp M4 on it.


 

 So with that three inch transfer bar, how do you figure it's a 3.5# trigger?


----------



## pigmode

Most U.S. AKs with their *long* 2 stage trigger actions come with a fairly light pull--surprisingly lighter than the AR. 
   
  As for the side mounted rail pictured above, for myself I find that its ergos to not work for me. The  gas tube mounted Ultimak rails used on my AKs, requires a tight cheek weld similar to the AR, although still a bit lower.  They also co-witness, which I find an absolute requirement for service grade weapons.


----------



## Bender

The trigger has approx. 3/16" of take up before it breaks(measured at the center of the trigger).  It's a single stage g2 trigger.
   
  For Old Pa, i know it's 3.5lbs because i measured it a couple times.  First with a poor man's trigger scale (bottles of water tied to a string lol).  Needless to say the bottles of water weren't exactly precise, but I knew 3 20oz bottles would trigger it.  Then I measured it with a trigger scale. 
  
  Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Most U.S. AKs with their *long* 2 stage trigger actions come with a fairly light pull--surprisingly lighter than the AR.
> 
> As for the side mounted rail pictured above, for myself I find that its ergos to not work for me. The  gas tube mounted Ultimak rails used on my AKs, requires a tight cheek weld similar to the AR, although still a bit lower.  They also co-witness, which I find an absolute requirement for service grade weapons.


----------



## KuKuBuKu

Desert Eagle, 44 magnum, underslung Wii controller.


----------



## pigmode

No wii controller, coz you have to make it go all on your own.  But hey that's a nice cap.


----------



## NapalmK

lol I just shot a DE today. It's got to be one of my favorite guns to shoot but I'd have to hand load to justify getting it. Any suggestions for a good carry gun? I'm thinking something along the lines of a compact 1911 in 9mm but I really having trouble narrowing it down.


----------



## grawk

I wouldn't get a 1911 in anything but .45.  If you want a 9mm for carry, and want single action, why not get a browning HP?  There are some REALLY nice ones out there.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





grawk said:


> I wouldn't get a 1911 in anything but .45.  If you want a 9mm for carry, and want single action, why not get a browning HP?  There are some REALLY nice ones out there.


 


  I dunno.  .38 Super is a pretty appropriate cartridge for the 1911.  I've actually been thinking of picking up a full size 1911 in 9mm if only because it's cheaper to shoot than .45
   
  Napalm, if you really want a carry 1911 in 9mm, take a look at the Para Ordinance LDA guns or a Springfield EMP (if you can find one).
   
  Me, if I were looking for a carry gun in 9mm, I'd probably go with a Kahr PM9 with night sights in black.


----------



## marvin

Boring choice, but I'd suggest a plastic fantastic from one of the major (Glock, S&W, Springfield, Ruger) manufacturers. For any given size format, you're going to get a lighter weight, higher capacity, and more consistently reliable gun then you would with a production 1911.


----------



## grawk

Of course, lighter is only somewhat desireable in a firearm, and I wouldn't automatically assume a plastic fantastic gun is going to be more reliable than a good 1911 or browning.  There are a lot of considerations that go into choosing a carry gun.  If you don't plan on spending 5000+ rounds getting familiar with the weapon you choose, I'd recommend a good revolver, because they're WAY less likely to misfire than any automatic.  Nothing beats the trigger on a well built 1911 or browning (single action triggers are great for accuracy.  If you want a traditional safety (a switch), then glock, kahr, and sig are all out, because they just rely on the trigger and the operator's brain.  If you want a heavy trigger so that it takes a more conscious choice to pull the trigger, at the expense of some accuracy, you'll want a traditional double action.  There are a lot of other considerations, as well.


----------



## NapalmK

I have always loved the Browning HPs probably my 3rd favorite handgun. I've pretty much given up on carrying a 1911 even though they make an excellent range gun. I think I'm trying to combine a carrying gun and a duty gun but that probably won't work out.I'm leaning more towards the Kahr PM9, Springfield XD Sub-Compact 3" in 9mm, Ruger SR9c, Keltec P9, or a S&W J frame. Anything else I should consider? I'm going to have to limit myself to below $600. I also like the idea of having a double action/single action firearm. Thanks for all of the suggestions!


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





napalmk said:


> I have always loved the Browning HPs probably my 3rd favorite handgun. I've pretty much given up on carrying a 1911 even though they make an excellent range gun. I think I'm trying to combine a carrying gun and a duty gun but that probably won't work out.I'm leaning more towards the Kahr PM9, Springfield XD Sub-Compact 3" in 9mm, Ruger SR9c, Keltec P9, or a S&W J frame. Anything else I should consider? I'm going to have to limit myself to below $600. I also like the idea of having a double action/single action firearm. Thanks for all of the suggestions!


 

  
  Tall order. Forget the XD sub-compact. I used it in a few matches. One particular range has a lot of fine sand where the stages are located. The mags locked up tight after being dropped in that stuff. I had it happen twice on two different mags in a single match.  Glocks, HKs and the like all make it through without an issue. DA/SA, are you sure? That's two trigger pulls you should train with; unnecessary work IMHO. I have no use for DA/SA pistols outside the range.
   
  It's hard for me to imagine a better gun than a HK USP compact with a LEM trigger for a carry gun that most replicates a full size, double stack weapon, although you give up sight radius. The the Glock 19 and 23 are about the same size and easy to conceal with a proper holster; Also, consider a M&P sub-compact.  If you're OK with the limited round count, take a look at the HK P7. It's an old design, but it's venerable. I would take it's squeeze cock 'safety' and it's wonderful trigger, even with its limited round count, over ANY DA/SA gun on any given day.
   
  Edited for a few screw ups.


----------



## pigmode

I ran SIGs for a quite while and my best two were the 220 and the 228. As for the DA/SA trigger, its perfectly adequate. You get used to it with training, but it takes more time to master. By the same token, a SA pistol carried or stored in cond. 2 will require even more training in terms of gaining safe handling under stress with the manual safety. The Glock/S&W M&P trigger styles fall about halfway in between. The lure of the DA/SA is it is a little more dumb proof.


----------



## ProjectDenz

Useful against those pesky squirrels and gofers - and Predators (who fire them big laz0rz).
   
   

   
   
  Just in case some pesky Afro-Ninjas decide to raid my house with helicopters.



 Afro-Ninja.



 Nothing gets in between you and your .50 Cal rifle - except a .50 Cal bullet.


----------



## Confispect

Lol!
   
  My personal:


----------



## dave3533

HK USP Tactical in .45 ACP, my favorite


----------



## Confispect

Looks like your average pistol with a light on it...


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





projectdenz said:


> Useful against those pesky squirrels and gofers - and Predators (who fire them big laz0rz).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  do you actually own any of the above...?


----------



## Confispect

Lol this response should be nice or none at all


----------



## dave3533

Try one out someday, you'll love it! 
   
  Quote:


confispect said:


> Looks like your average pistol with a light on it...


----------



## Confispect

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *dave3533* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Try one out someday, you'll love it!


 
  I bet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  You should try the 38 special out if you haven't already sounds like a loud firecracker, very disturbing...


----------



## mralexosborn

I can't hit **** with a 38 special. It is funny. My grandpa has owned his for 10+ years and couldn't either. After that, we got out the shotgun. It was far more accurate. XD


----------



## Uncle Erik

mralexosborn said:


> I can't hit **** with a 38 special. It is funny. My grandpa has owned his for 10+ years and couldn't either. After that, we got out the shotgun. It was far more accurate. XD





 
Practice. Take a range course. Anyone can become proficient.

Some years back, a classmate became a police officer. He was a bit jumpy with the gun, so I used to train with him. A lot of it is psychological and learning how to control yourself. He eventually passed all his firearm tests. I was able to pass all of the police tests, too. I think most people can, but you have to get familiar with shooting and overcome natural inclinations to anticipate the shot and recoil.


----------



## Confispect

^What he said all though I've had no training it's never been a problem for me.


----------



## marvin

Quote: 





mralexosborn said:


> I can't hit **** with a 38 special. It is funny. My grandpa has owned his for 10+ years and couldn't either. After that, we got out the shotgun. It was far more accurate. XD


 


  Not too surprising. The double action revolver (especially in lightweight, small frame, snubnose configuration) is one of the more difficult pistols to become a proficient marksman with. The long and heavy trigger pull really magnifies the flaws in your form and there's no reciprocating parts to smooth out the recoil impulse. Tough for a novice to manage compared to most service autoloaders, but a bit of training and a lot of dry firing and range time usually evens things out a bit.

 Far as the shotgun goes, you've learned one of the cardinal truths about firearms. Long arms are so superior to pistols in everything except portability that it's not even funny. It makes me wince every time someone recommends a pistol for home defense.


----------



## ArmAndHammer

hmmm...I had no issue qualifying with my .38 snubby, and that was out to 25 yards.


----------



## ArmAndHammer

Dispite being in LE for the last 10 years...I never really developed a love for firearms. I keep a pretty basic kit incase of zombie outbreak, but otherwise...I have better things to spend my money on...
   
   
   
  Still need to change out the fore grip upper...


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





armandhammer said:


> Dispite being in LE for the last 10 years...I never really developed a love for firearms. I keep a pretty basic kit incase of zombie outbreak, but otherwise...I have better things to spend my money on...
> 
> 
> 
> Still need to change out the fore grip upper...


 


 love the last peashooter...what are the specs?


----------



## grawk

It's the gun from MiB, not a real gun.


----------



## Samgotit

Squeeze cocker love. HK P7M8. Picked it up at Cabela's of all places. The had no idea what they had. They were probably looking at PSPs in the blue book when pricing it. 1986 date code.


----------



## grawk

awesome, one of my dream guns.


----------



## Confispect

What a beauty I like that pea shooter as well looks like MIB to me.


----------



## ArmAndHammer

Yup, the noisy cricket.


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





grawk said:


> It's the gun from MiB, not a real gun.


 


  LOL...I knew that...well didn't know where it was from, but least I knew it wasn't a real gun


----------



## Hellrzr

Man I would love to have one of those. Such an attractive design.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

My Les Baer 1911 Custom Carry.


----------



## leftnose

Nice Baer!  Now let's see a pic of yours!
   
  I've been thinking of buying a hard chrome Thunder Ranch Baer.


----------



## mralexosborn

Oh, to clear my name up from my last post:
   
  I have used firearms a few times and if I may say so myself, I am not too bad of a shot.
  With an M1911 I can form nice tight groupings though I am not sure about the distance from the target.
  With the AR15 I could hit underneath where I was aiming. I wasn't used to the weight or form factor of the weapon. 
   
  My uncle who was a ranger I believe think that I am a good shot. But of course he is my uncle, so he may I have no choice. XD


----------



## Mdraluck23

Alright.... Which one of you guys.....
Link


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





grawk said:


> awesome, one of my dream guns.


 


  Top Gun Supply has grade B PSPs for $499. I don't think it will get much better. They sold out fast in the past after they stocked.
   
  http://www.topgunsupply.com/hk-p7-handguns/
   
  Just be prepared for the mag prices. The mag release is, of course, worlds better on the M8, but the trigger on heeler that I own is actually a bit better than the M8 and the squeeze cocker takes a little less force.  Go figure.


----------



## tyde165

UGH i just had to find a gun thread. And not own any. (at my home here in Houston) I have 2 Remington 870s one in Idaho with my dad and one in California with my grandpa. 
   
  I do plan on buying a Remington 700 in about a month for my 20th birthday. that is if i dont spend the rest of my student loan on headphones and stuff related to that.


----------



## AudioCats

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Squeeze cocker love. HK P7M8. Picked it up at Cabela's of all places. The had no idea what they had. They were probably looking at PSPs in the blue book when pricing it. 1986 date code.


 


 super nice. How much are the M8's nowadays?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   

 Alex should stay far, far away from the .44 magnum lol.
   
  I won an FBI walk-and-draw competition with a .38 special when I was 16 years old (against adults) in a police firearms techniques class offered by the local community college, but I could't hit anything with that magnum. We also used to fire at cast-iron silhouettes; the .38 hit them every time but you couldn't knock one down unless you hit it dead center. If you managed to even graze one with the .44 though, it went flying! It was a fun class, I got to fire every kind of gun imaginable except the fully-automatic ones because I wasn't old enough.
   
  Now I prefer the 10mm autos, but a had a really nice Browning Hi-power 9mm for a while. The guns I liked the best in that class were the .223 bolt-actions with thumb-holed custom stocks, you could shoot the eye out of a hummingbird with one of those. Just an example, I don't advocate the shooting of hummingbirds in the eye or anywhere else.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





audiocats said:


> super nice. How much are the M8's nowadays?


 

 About 1100+,  NIB for about 1700++++. Prices are all over the place on them. I was very lucky and got that one for significantly less.


----------



## Anaxilus

So I'm contemplating adding a Sig 226 Elite Dark ultimately in .357 for PD.  Thoughts anyone?


----------



## Richiyaado

Wow! After several weeks at Head-Fi, I just discovered this thread... am enjoying the journey!

 I own a variety of ordinance, but no photos as yet... maybe will upload when I get the chance.


----------



## grawk

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> So I'm contemplating adding a Sig 226 Elite Dark ultimately in .357 for PD.  Thoughts anyone?


 


  Count me in the crowd that doesn't see the point in non-traditional calibers.  Why not just get a 226 in 9mm?  When you need additional punch, use +P+ ammo.  The 226 is a wonderful firearm, tho.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grawk said:


> Count me in the crowd that doesn't see the point in non-traditional calibers.  Why not just get a 226 in 9mm?  When you need additional punch, use +P+ ammo.  The 226 is a wonderful firearm, tho.


 

 I already have 2 9mm's.  Glock 19 and HK USP.  This would be my 'bedside rig'.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Even in +P+ the 9mm can't match the ballistics of the .357 from the numbers I've seen.  Plus you have extra considerations when you step up to +P+ compared to using the standard, intended cartridge.


----------



## grawk

Having 2 9mms says to me you're better off with another 9mm, not another caliber.  And theoretical ballistics are better on .357sig, but real world, it's still a pistol, and 9mm works really well.  If you need more, you get .45, and otherwise, you're just spending a lot of money on ammunition with no real world benefits.
   
  And I guarantee the sig and the usp can both handle +P+ with no trouble.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grawk said:


> Having 2 9mms says to me you're better off with another 9mm, not another caliber.  And theoretical ballistics are better on .357sig, but real world, it's still a pistol, and 9mm works really well.  If you need more, you get .45, and otherwise, you're just spending a lot of money on ammunition with no real world benefits.
> 
> And I guarantee the sig and the usp can both handle +P+ with no trouble.


 

 Yeah, originally I wanted a 220 in .45 but the .357 ballistics and just the added capacity was appealling.  But I could swap for the .40 and 9mm w/ the same 226 by rolling barrels and mags.  The 220 limits me to 45 and 9 but the 226 gets me 9, 40, 357.   I'm not concerned w/ the caliber so much as the firearm itself.  I plan on having conversions handy for the 226 so I would likely toss 9mm down range most of the time and swap over for carry or home use.  I'm already screwed for ammo costs anyway by having to stock .50AE.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I guess I'm more concerned over reports about QC going down since they started making them in the US about 5 years ago.  Also some don't like the idea of the more elevated bore axis compared to the USP.  Just wondering if anyone had thoughts along those lines or some other considerations.
   
  Edit - Are you sure about the USP 9mm handling +P+?  I know the frame is less sturdy than the .45 USP.  I tend to like my safety margins in engineering rather large.


----------



## grawk

From page 21 of the HK USP Operator's Manual:

_In compliance with NIJ Standard-01 1 2.00, currently there are no known ammunition types that meet the general guidelines set forth in this section that are not compatible with the USP 9mm, USP .40, or USP .45 pistols. All USP pistols are approved for use with +P and +P+ ammunition. The use of +P and +P+ ammunition does accelerate wear and reduce the service life on the component parts of any pistol, including the USP._


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grawk said:


>


 


> From page 21 of the HK USP Operator's Manual:
> 
> _In compliance with NIJ Standard-01 1 2.00, currently there are no known ammunition types that meet the general guidelines set forth in this section that are not compatible with the USP 9mm, USP .40, or USP .45 pistols. All USP pistols are approved for use with +P and +P+ ammunition. The use of +P and +P+ ammunition does accelerate wear and reduce the service life on the component parts of any pistol, including the USP._


 
   
  Thx for that.  I know any caliber conversions on the USP are not supported by HK which was one of my concerns about using +P+.  That clears it up nicely.  Been almost 20 years since I read the manual, lol.


----------



## grokit

9mm LUGER; 7,62; .357SIG; 10mmAUTO; .40S&W; .45GAP; .50AE; all we need is a .44 magnum in this comparison!


----------



## Anaxilus

What kind of 7.62 round is that?  I've never seen any 7.62 like that before.


----------



## marvin

7.62mm Mauser or Tokarev.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





marvin said:


> 7.62mm Mauser or Tokarev.


 

 Spasibo.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





marvin said:


> 7.62mm Mauser or Tokarev.


 

 So it's different or the same as the NATO-standardized 7.62?


----------



## marvin

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So it's different or the same as the NATO-standardized 7.62?


 

  
  7.62mm NATO is 7.62x51mm. 7.62mm Tokarev is 7.62x25mm. One's a rifle round, the other's a pistol/SMG round.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So it's different or the same as the NATO-standardized 7.62?


 

 Totally different.  That looks like a toy round in comparison.


----------



## grokit

Gotcha, that's kind of what I suspected. Thanks guys


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





grokit said:


> 9mm LUGER; 7,62; .357SIG; 10mmAUTO; .40S&W; .45GAP; .50AE; all we need is a .44 magnum in this comparison!


 


  Uh, I think you need a .45 ACP in there, too.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Uh, I think you need a .45 ACP in there, too.


 


   
  .45 acp, .45 gap, .45 sap


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





grokit said:


> .45 gap, .45 acp, .45 sap


 


  Not to be a PITA, but shouldn't that be .45 ACP, .then 45 GAP?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Not to be a PITA, but shouldn't that be .45 ACP, .then 45 GAP?


 
   
  Congratulations on passing the test, now edited


----------



## TruBrew

Has anyone fired the Walther PPS. I wanted one for concealed carry, but I was thinking it might be too thin, which seems stupid comment considering its purpose. I don't think I will ever actually get around to buying it since I keep spending all my money on hi-fi gear


----------



## marvin

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> Has anyone fired the Walther PPS. I wanted one for concealed carry, but I was thinking it might be too thin, which seems stupid comment considering its purpose. I don't think I will ever actually get around to buying it since I keep spending all my money on hi-fi gear


 
   
  Have one. For subcompact, it's remarkably easy shooting with the 7 and 8 round magazines thanks to the full grip. Reliability's been good, but I've only had two to three thousand rounds through mine. It's a bit too large for pocket carry due to the bulky slide, but the slimness makes it an easy IWB carry under most clothing. Ergonomics are hit and miss. It's great for those with smaller hands, especially if they find double stack pistols a bit difficult to manage. Nice slim grip with a short trigger reach. Otherwise, it may feel cramped. The paddle style magazine release may also be a turnoff.
   
  I've stopped carrying it in favor of a HK PSP. If I were buying now, I'd probably favor the Ruger SR9c over the PPS. Much more value there, plus mags don't run arm + leg.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





marvin said:


> I've stopped carrying it in favor of a HK PSP.


 

 What holster, marvin?


----------



## marvin

Minotaur MTAC with C-clips. Not the prettiest thing in the world, but it provides a comfortable leather contact surface with solid retention. It's not quite as comfortable as a VMII due to the wider bottom necessitated by the clip system, but it's a lot better as a tuckable holster. The PSP still rides high compared to most other pistols, but haven't found any IWB holsters that ride lower while allowing a full grip before drawing.


----------



## dailysmoker

some nice guns in this topic  only in holland we cannot have guns but check this guy out.......
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq8Xuj33u1w
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srd-QZXBfZI&feature=relmfu
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXfMI7xVPj4&feature=relmfu
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igG8wXOQyZA&feature=relmfu


----------



## Anaxilus

Not a fan of the Steyr AUG.  Couldn't speed load the magazine one handed while keeping eyes on.  Funny about the .50 Desert Eagle.  My indoor range won't let me fire mine inside.


----------



## revolink24

Just wondering, has anyone here gotten an M1 Garand from the CMP? If so, do you recommend it? I've been thinking of getting one as my first rifle (mostly because I am a complete history nut, and what better historic firearm)


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Springfield Armory Special Service Grade M1 Garand (picture below) from CMP South:
> 
> South Store - Camp Perry
> 
> I also bought a Field Grade H&R that measured 2 for muzzle wear and 2 for throat erosion. They're exquisite designs of history. It was very hard to leave the CMP store with only the two.


 


   


  Quote: 





revolink24 said:


> Just wondering, has anyone here gotten an M1 Garand from the CMP? If so, do you recommend it? I've been thinking of getting one as my first rifle (mostly because I am a complete history nut, and what better historic firearm)


 
   
  Sure have. I drove to CMP Annistion to get it. At the time you could not mail order the Service Grade Special pictured above.
   
  Still, I highly, highly recommend getting the paperwork together and ordering.  I also bought a H&R Field Grade, and it's just as nice with its historical patina (wish I had a photo).
   
  A few words of advice, buy as much surplus .30-06 as you can at the time you order.
   
  Everyone should get one... just to hear that metallic ping as the clip ejects.


----------



## dailysmoker

wow didn´t know that the m4 carbine had such high rate of fire 30 rounds in a second
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDQ0McPWXJA


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





dailysmoker said:


> wow didn´t know that the m4 carbine had such high rate of fire 30 rounds in a second


 

 That's one of the reasons it was designed in the first place plus the minimal recoil.


----------



## swifttal

revolink24 said:


> Just wondering, has anyone here gotten an M1 Garand from the CMP? If so, do you recommend it? I've been thinking of getting one as my first rifle (mostly because I am a complete history nut, and what better historic firearm)




Caution - CMP is highly addictive and may cause cronic empty-wallet syndrome. Do not take CMP if you suffer from veganism, or live within 30 miles of Berkley.

Hells yeah you should get one! Everyone who qualifies should take advantage of CMP - great gun and ammo deals to be had. Will be getting another 1917 enfield shortly to replace the one I had stolen last year... May have to get another '03 while I'm at it.... Damn! There I go again...

Hi, my name's Bryan, and I'm a CMP-oholic...


----------



## wareagle69

Another fan of the CMP Garand's.  The price is good, the service is excellent and the history of the M1 will make you want more than one.  These are 2-3 MOA rifles with the Greek HXP that you can buy from the CMP.  If you handload and work at it a bit, you can often get it to shoot  1.5-2 MOA. 
   
  All kinds of good info here:
   
  http://forums.thecmp.org/index.php


----------



## balderon

My wife wanted a small "MIB cricket" to carry in her purse. I made an impulse purchase of the Rugar LCP (http://www.ruger.com/products/lcp/models.html). The grouping was not too bad at 15 yards. Definitely accurate enough for personal protection. The only drawbacks are it's always double action and only loads 6+1.


----------



## pigmode

My first choice would have been the S&W titanium/scandium J frame.


----------



## marvin

Had an Sc/Ti J frame. Only thing that comes to mind when I think of one is ouch.


----------



## pigmode

That's why I've never gone beyond +p. I like the theory that it will hurt more on the other end, and theoretically you only have to say ouch 5 times, max


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


marvin said:


> Had an Sc/Ti J frame. Only thing that comes to mind when I think of one is ouch.


 

  
  No kidding!  I'd rather shoot full-house .44 Mag loads out of a (6)29 than any J-Frame with short grip.  My buddy has one and the first time I shot it, I limp wristed it a bit and a bullet unseated!  Took me a second to realize why the cylinder wasn't rotating.   Um, probably because half of the 158-grain RN was sticking out the front of the cylinder! 
   
  At least with an N-frame, I can get a proper grip on the gun.
   
   
  Quote: 





pigmode said:


> That's why I've never gone beyond +p. I like the theory that it will hurt more on the other end, and theoretically you only have to say ouch 5 times, max


 
   
  Yeah, but you have to practice with it and that means saying ouch a whole bunch more times than 5.


----------



## ozz

I have had various pistols and calibers over the years and my take on it is get the pistol that feels comfortable and easy for you to shoot and a Glock 17 has been my choice for awhile now.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> That's one of the reasons it was designed in the first place plus the minimal recoil.


 


 Try 12 rounds a second for a cyclic rate of 720 rounds per minute, although it can vary slightly with propellant type.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Try 12 rounds a second for a cyclic rate of 720 rounds per minute, although it can vary slightly with propellant type.


 

 Not sure why you are quoting me but I did try it out 'abroad' for about 7 months a few years ago.  Thx.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I do need to convert my own AR to a gas piston though so no more phones for a bit.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Not sure why you are quoting me but I did try it out 'abroad' for about 7 months a few years ago.


 


 Because your quote was the last that seemed to confirm a usual cyclic rate for an AR M4 of 1800 rounds per minute.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Because your quote was the last that seemed to confirm a usual cyclic rate for an AR M4 of 1800 rounds per minute.


 

 No, my quote said it was designed to throw lots of lead downrange fast.  I'm pretty sure I didn't mention any numbers.  The person who did quote that rate actually misquoted his own video if you even watched it.  Anyway the M4 can get up to 975 but whatever.


----------



## grawk

In real terms, it can fire 30 rounds quickly, and then requires a reload. And if you're firing more than 3 at a time, you're doing something wrong.


----------



## swifttal

Yeah, m4 averages 800-900 from what our armorers tell us as well... If anyone wants to see what 1800 rpm looks like, YouTube the AN-94. It does 1800 rpm with 2-round burst - man that is a badass rifle!


----------



## Towert7

Interesting thread.
   
  Back a few years ago I would have thought this thread was crazy, but now I've matured and realize that there is nothing wrong with owning / using guns.  I was never around guns as a kid, so I thought it was a very taboo thing.  I didn't even realize you could legally carry one in most states until this year.
   
  I'm in the process of getting my license to carry.  Once that happens I'm going to get a little Ruger MKIII Standard and a subcompact EDC gun (Ruger LC9, Walther PPK, PPS ?).  Really want to get good with shooting, so that I can start doing it as a competitive sport.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Back a few years ago I would have thought this thread was crazy, but now I've matured and realize that there is nothing wrong with owning / using guns.  I was never around guns as a kid, so I thought it was a very taboo thing.  I didn't even realize you could legally carry one in most states until this year.
> 
> I'm in the process of getting my license to carry.  Once that happens I'm going to get a little Ruger MKIII Standard and a subcompact EDC gun (Ruger LC9, Walther PPK, PPS ?).  Really want to get good with shooting, so that I can start doing it as a competitive sport.


 

 Welcome to Gun-fi.  Sorry for your wallet.


----------



## grawk

You live in MA and are getting your concealed carry permit? Are you the governor?


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grawk said:


> You live in MA and are getting your concealed carry permit? Are you the governor?


 


  Some towns / cities in MA are very uptight and do not hand out carry permits, others do.
 I live in the boondocks, not a large city, luckily.


----------



## jude

Just received my HK P7 PSP today.  I've had experience with the PSP, and always loved it.  Shot this one today, and remembered why.


----------



## grawk

Quote: 





jude said:


> Just received my HK P7 PSP today.  I've had experience with the PSP, and always loved it.  Shot this one today, and remembered why.


 


  One of my favorite handguns ever.  If I were still actively carrying, I'd be searching for one as my daily carry gun.


----------



## Anaxilus

Nice Jude.  I think the only issue I had w/ the P7 was weight.  Haven't tried the PSP though.  I think I've abandoned my quest for the .357 sig and will sell my Glock 19 too.  It seems I've been converted by the 1911. Probably pick up a Kimber along w/ a Sig P238 as my guardian angels.


----------



## jude

Quote: 





grawk said:


> One of my favorite handguns ever.  If I were still actively carrying, I'd be searching for one as my daily carry gun.


 

  Yes, it has long been one of my favorites, too.  As far as handguns go, it has been my absolute favorite, since first using one.
   
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Nice Jude.  I think the only issue I had w/ the P7 was weight.  Haven't tried the PSP though.  I think I've abandoned my quest for the .357 sig and will sell my Glock 19 too.  It seems I've been converted by the 1911. Probably pick up a Kimber along w/ a Sig P238 as my guardian angels.


 

 It's hard not to love a good 1911, man, so I definitely get the love.
   
  I don't think there's enough difference between any P7 M8 and the P7 PSP to make much (if any) difference in weight.  I went with the PSP version (over the M8) primarily because I prefer the heel magazine release.


----------



## Samgotit

Finest single stack known to man.
   
   
  Most expensive mags known to man, too. So be it.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> Finest single stack known to man.


 

 Is it?  Better than a Sig P210?


----------



## grawk

The p7 is definitely better than a P210


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Is it?  Better than a Sig P210?


 
   
  The P7 has the finest stock trigger (outside of Browning Buck Marks and some 1911/2011s) there is --- Wonderfully short reset; even, buttery pull; breaks as surprising as a Jack-in-the-Box, so yes.
   
  I have a M8 and a PSP, oddly, the PSP has a slightly better trigger. I'll go ahead and comment on accuracy, even thought it's widely overblown as a trait, but the fixed barrel on a P7 makes it akin to a fine bolt action rifle.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grawk said:


> You live in MA and are getting your concealed carry permit? Are you the governor?


 


  Just got my unrestricted large capacity concealed carry permit.  ^_^
   
  Now I want to get myself a little Ruger MkIII.
   
  Not sure what to get as an EDC.  Kahr PM9?  Walther PPK?  Thankfully I'm in no rush.
   
  I'm also thrilled that I can now legally carry peper/oc spray.


----------



## grawk

Kahr makes a pretty good firearm, but I want an active safety or a longer trigger on a carry gun.  Back when I carried, I carried either a p239, an HK USP, or a 1911.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grawk said:


> Kahr makes a pretty good firearm, but I want an active safety or a longer trigger on a carry gun.  Back when I carried, I carried either a p239, an HK USP, or a 1911.


 


  How can anyone carry a 1911 inside the waistband?  Even the small kimber carry 1911 seems very thick.


----------



## grawk

1911's aren't thick at all, they're thinner than anything with a double stack.  But honestly, with a good holster you can carry almost anything.  I have a matt delfatti holster for my HK USP Tactical 45, which is a giant gun, but it disappears in that holster.


----------



## wareagle69

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> How can anyone carry a 1911 inside the waistband?  Even the small kimber carry 1911 seems very thick.


 
  Easy.  With a proper belt and well designed IWB holster you can carry most pistols comfortably.  I carried a Commander sized 1911 for a number of years and it was very comfortable in a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2.  For the past several months, I converted to a full size Springfield XDM (45 ACP) in a Crossbreed Super Tuck.  Extremely comfortable even with the full size, double stack XDM.  Belt is also important.  These work very well:  http://www.thebeltman.net/


----------



## pigmode

I've lived many years with the 1911, including my first Series 70 Govt Model, bought brand new in Killeen TX for about $225. (or something like that).
   
  After that it was S_IG, the 220ST and the 228. It takes determined training to perfect the DA to SA transition. _
   
_When SIG went downhill, I moved on to Glock and never looked back. Started with the 17 and now I have 19s. I prefer the modern designs for their inherent reliability. _


----------



## Uncle Erik

I've been using the 1911 a bit more down here in the desert. I've come to like it, but the one thing that bothers me is decocking while loaded. I don't like having to pull the trigger and slowly letting down the hammer. I much prefer a decocking lever. But it's a fine gun, reliable and accurate. I'm not sure it's something I'd want to carry. In a tense situation, I might not let the hammer down as smoothly as it needed.

The gun I've been taking a liking to is the Sig P6 (P225) that was a former West German police gun. I bought it because I wanted to practice with cheaper 9mm ammo, but the thing has really won me over. Trigger pull is on the heavy side and it only holds eight rounds. But I love the ergos, it's damned reliable and very accurate. It has a good decocking lever, too. I have loads of confidence in it - this is the one I'd carry if I carried daily. Only thing is that I need to find some kind of good holster for it, and I'm not terribly up on who makes good ones.


----------



## grawk

thats because you're not supposed to carry it that way. Hammer down is more dangerous than safety on. I carried without one in the pipe. Just practice drawing and racking the slide as a single action.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> I've been using the 1911 a bit more down here in the desert. I've come to like it, but the one thing that bothers me is decocking while loaded. I don't like having to pull the trigger and slowly letting down the hammer. I much prefer a decocking lever. But it's a fine gun, reliable and accurate. I'm not sure it's something I'd want to carry. In a tense situation, I might not let the hammer down as smoothly as it needed.
> 
> The gun I've been taking a liking to is the Sig P6 (P225) that was a former West German police gun. I bought it because I wanted to practice with cheaper 9mm ammo, but the thing has really won me over. Trigger pull is on the heavy side and it only holds eight rounds. But I love the ergos, it's damned reliable and very accurate. It has a good decocking lever, too. I have loads of confidence in it - this is the one I'd carry if I carried daily. Only thing is that I need to find some kind of good holster for it, and I'm not terribly up on who makes good ones.


 


  That's why trained users of the 1911 all carry in condition 3--cocked and locked. If a shooter can't flip the safety on with a cocked hammer in a tense situation and feel absolutely secure, imo they are not adequately trained to carry a 1911.


----------



## Samgotit

Cocked and locked or carry something else.
   
  You'd thinking sweeping the safety during the draw stroke wouldn't be that difficult. I did. But I've seen an astonishing  number of people in multiple hand gun classes absolutely flubber the safety - and never master it after  two days and a thousand rounds.  Imagine doing it under "real" stress if you have not honestly mastered it.
   
  With a carry gun you are already behind the eight ball. You have to clear your garment to draw to begin with.  THAT ---clearing you shirt and a proper draw stroke--- is what everyone should be focused on who carries, not manipulating external safeties, and absolutely not working slides, and so forth.


----------



## SH0RTBUS

Quote: 





wareagle69 said:


> Easy.  With a proper belt and well designed IWB holster you can carry most pistols comfortably.  I carried a Commander sized 1911 for a number of years and it was very comfortable in a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2.  For the past several months, I converted to a full size Springfield XDM (45 ACP) in a Crossbreed Super Tuck.  Extremely comfortable even with the full size, double stack XDM.  Belt is also important.  These work very well:  http://www.thebeltman.net/


 

 KD holster makes a very nice IWB holster called the Defender. I used one with my XD 45 and with the XD40 SC. I currently use a Galco NSA which is also a great IWB holster for my Kimber.


----------



## SH0RTBUS

Quote: 





grawk said:


> thats because you're not supposed to carry it that way. Hammer down is more dangerous than safety on. I carried without one in the pipe. Just practice drawing and racking the slide as a single action.


 


   Drawing and racking the slide too much work in a stressful situation. If you are uncomfortable carrying cocked and locked, check out a DA. Or better yet, do research on the 1911 design. It is a great gun and very safe to carry. I am embarrased to say that I have even tested my safety by accidentally dropping my Kimber while pulling up my pants in a stall. I carry IWB and the gun flipped over the top of my pants while pulling them up. The only noise it made was the unimpressive "thump" when $1200 hit the floor. On a side note, never attempt to catch a falling gun.


----------



## mbriant

1803 Air Rifle -  Sorry if this has already been posted, but I found this video very interesting.  Who would have thought that an air rifle would have played such an important role in history.
   
  [size=14pt]http://www.network54.com/Forum/451309/thread/1296928404/This+is+just+to+cool+not+to+spread+around[/size]


----------



## BigBird

Quote: 





archosman said:


> Here's a few of mine...
> 
> 
> Old Smith&Wesson .38 Special... not mine
> ...


 

  
  WOW!
  Gotta love your Ruger 22/45 Mark II so much better than the Mark III since it doesn't have that magazine disconnect that really blows. )


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





bigbird said:


> WOW!
> Gotta love your Ruger 22/45 Mark II so much better than the Mark III since it doesn't have that magazine disconnect that really blows. )


 

 Just to be technical, it's the ruger mk II, not the ruger 22/45 mark II (that is a totally different gun you are referring to).
   
  The little 22's are not going to be used for self defense.  They are for fun and practice.  The magazine disconnect is a safety measure, which is useful for people who are just starting out and need to get familiar with guns.  If this were an EDC firearm, then that would be a whole different story.


----------



## BigBird

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Just to be technical, it's the ruger mk II, not the ruger 22/45 mark II (that is a totally different gun you are referring to).
> 
> The little 22's are not going to be used for self defense.  They are for fun and practice.  The magazine disconnect is a safety measure, which is useful for people who are just starting out and need to get familiar with guns.  If this were an EDC firearm, then that would be a whole different story.


 
  What is the difference between the 22/45 and the MKII,isn't it the same pistol.  Can you please tell me whats difference I thought they were both the same guns. :/


----------



## macshooter

I own too many to mention.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





bigbird said:


> What is the difference between the 22/45 and the MKII,isn't it the same pistol.  Can you please tell me whats difference I thought they were both the same guns. :/


 


   
  The main difference is the grip is reshaped to replicate the 1911. The original purpose was to provide 2700 bullseye shooters with common pistol ergonomics, being that the 1911 is the predominant platform for centerfire. High Standard was probably the first to market this concept, in their target rimfires.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





bigbird said:


> What is the difference between the 22/45 and the MKII,isn't it the same pistol.  Can you please tell me whats difference I thought they were both the same guns. :/


 

 I'm afraid I don't know the specific differences, but I've seen the 22/45 in the stores and the hand grip is very different from the mark III.


----------



## BigBird

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> I'm afraid I don't know the specific differences, but I've seen the 22/45 in the stores and the hand grip is very different from the mark III.


 

  
  Thanks for the info i try not to make that mistake again. )


----------



## guyx1992

I currently have a Tavor assult rifle:
   
   
  and I'm supposed to switch it to the Micro Tavor this month:


----------



## grawk

What does the lock through the trigger guard do?


----------



## cyberspyder

Those are Wiki pics, I'm assuming it was a tradeshow, prevents people from walking off with the rifle.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





grawk said:


> What does the lock through the trigger guard do?


 


  Makes it so people can't walk off with it, I imagine its for use at gun shows and the like.


----------



## grawk

I asked, because he was purporting to have them, so I figured they were pictures of his own guns.  Most people who lock up guns, lock them in a way to make them inoperable.


----------



## pigmode

^ I assume he is in the IDF.


----------



## Towert7

Picked up a little ruger mkIII today for the no tax weekend in my state.
  I'm so excited.  Can't wait to try it out!


----------



## grokit

Which version did you get? I have the competition model with a scope, it's deadly accurate.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Which version did you get? I have the competition model with a scope, it's deadly accurate.


 


  I got the standard 4.75".


----------



## Astrozombie

I'm always waiting on Big 5 to put the Mosin Nagant on clearance for $80~ so i still don't have one
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If i bought a pistol later on i'd definitely get a revolver.


----------



## leftnose

My new toy:


----------



## Towert7

Took a photo of my new pistol:
   
   




   
  Such an iconic shape.  I love it!


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Took a photo of my new pistol:
> 
> Such an iconic shape.  I love it!


 

 I have a crush on it (im going to take her)


----------



## wareagle69

Here's a 6mmBR I just built.  Savage Target Action, Shilen Select Match 30" Barrel, McRees Precision Stock and a Zeiss Conquest 6.5x20 Scope.  Best group so far is .219", but still experimenting with various handloads.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





wareagle69 said:


> Zeiss Conquest 6.5x20 Scope.


 


  6.5-20 power?  Cuz that objective looks more than a bit bigger than 20mm.


----------



## wareagle69

6.5-20 power.  50mm objective.


----------



## nikp

Quote: 





brbjackson said:


> Too lazy to drag the long guns out, but here're a few of the handguns. Faves in the group are the USP .40 and S&W 908.


 

 I like the revolver.


----------



## Towert7

Boy oh boy!
  A local gun club had an open house today, and Savage guns brought along rifles to try out. 
   
  I got to try a .223 and had a lot of fun.  That was my first time firing a rifle. 
   
  They also had a 338 with a muzzle break (?) on it.
  My god!  Anywhere within 15 feet of that thing and it felt like it punched you each time it fired!  Loud as hell too.
   







   
  The guys who fired it said it didn't have that much kick because of the muzzle break (suppressor?).  They also said each round was about 3$.  wow


----------



## grawk

a muzzle break just redirects the gas to the sides instead of back.  It's not a supressor, it actually makes things louder.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grawk said:


> a muzzle break just redirects the gas to the sides instead of back.  It's not a supressor, it actually makes things louder.


 


  Thank you.  I was not sure.


----------



## Anaxilus

A friend just sent me this:
   
   
(Account from a Kansas State Trooper)
  

    I made a traffic stop on an elderly lady the other day for speeding on US

166 Eastbound at Mile Marker 73 just East of Sedan, KS. I asked for her

driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance
  

The lady took out  the required information and handed it to me. In with the cards I was somewhat surprised (due to her advanced age) to see she had a conceal

carry permit. I looked at her and asked if she had a weapon in her

possession at this time. She responded that she indeed had .45 automatic in her glove box.
  

Something, body language, or the way she said it made me want to ask if

she had any other firearms. She did admit to also having a 9mm Glock in

her center console.

 Now I had to ask one more time if that was all, she responded once again she did have just one more, a .38 special in her purse.

 I then asked her what was she so afraid of?

She looked me right in the eye and said, "Not a darn thing!"


----------



## nikp

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> A friend just sent me this:
> 
> 
> (Account from a Kansas State Trooper)
> ...


 

 If the officer searched her bag, he would have found a taser.


----------



## grokit

Good one Anaxilus.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





wareagle69 said:


> Here's a 6mmBR I just built.  Savage Target Action, Shilen Select Match 30" Barrel, McRees Precision Stock and a Zeiss Conquest 6.5x20 Scope.  Best group so far is .219", but still experimenting with various handloads.


 

  
   
   
  Zeiss Conquest are a *great* value, aren't they? I had a 3x9 on a 30-06 Sako 75 Finnlight, both of which were sold a couple of years ago.


----------



## kiteki

Whoa.........


----------



## leftnose

Quote:


leftnose said:


> My new toy:


 


  And a new toy for the above which arrived today:


----------



## pigmode

^ I have 5 of those toy---one T-1, the rest H-1s.


----------



## pigmode

^ I have 5 of those toys---one T-1, the rest H-1s.


----------



## Towert7

Had it for a few weeks now.  Interesting little thing.


----------



## pigmode

Nice, a functional piece of history. I had a German made PPK/S bought in the early 70's, when the PPK was restricted from import by the GCA '68, and before Walther began U.S. production. The PPK/S is a PPK slide on a PP frame.


----------



## FlatNine

I recently traded my Beretta 92FS Inox (9mm) and went to a plain Glock model 19. I have found that for me, the Glock is much easier to be accurate with. I'm not saying either is more accurate than the other, just that my groupings are much tighter with the Glock than they were with the Beretta. And here is a great find that someone turned me on to. I was buying Federal ammo at Walmart for 10.47 USD per box. (115 grain, FMJ)  Here is a case of RWS ammo (9mm 124 grain FMJ) for 189.99 USD, which works out to 9.45 per box. Of course, it isn't just about price. My friend gave me a box to try. It is *very* clean, and the casings are quality brass suitable for reload. I had no misfires or jams, and others have all good things to say. That's a very good price, at least up here in the northeastern part of the US.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





flatnine said:


> I recently traded my Beretta 92FS Inox (9mm) and went to a plain Glock model 19. I have found that for me, the Glock is much easier to be accurate with. I'm not saying either is more accurate than the other, just that my groupings are much tighter with the Glock than they were with the Beretta.


 

  You won't say it?  Fine, I'll say it.  The Beretta 92 is a PoS!  IMO *one of *the worst US issued firearms ever.  Probably the worst design you could have picked for exposure to Arab sand too.  To balance things out I'll say at least it's not some Norinco.  
   
  The Glock 19 is nice but it's going to a friend once I get a 1911.  My USP is better than the 19 but it has it's quirks.


----------



## FlatNine

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> You won't say it?  Fine, I'll say it.  The Beretta 92 is a PoS!  IMO *one of *the worst US issued firearms ever.  Probably the worst design you could have picked for exposure to Arab sand too.  To balance things out I'll say at least it's not some Norinco.
> 
> The Glock 19 is nice but it's going to a friend once I get a 1911.  My USP is better than the 19 but it has it's quirks.


 

 Lol. I really like the Glock. Some of the Kimber 1911's are just beautiful to look at. I haven't had a chance to try one though. Probably better that way, lest I spend even more money. (This site cost me about $750 this week - $400 on a TTVJ Slim amp and $350 for Sennheiser HD-650's!)


----------



## Uncle Erik

Huh. I had a 92FS for several years and never had a problem with it. One made before some parts were replaced with plastic, I should add.

On the other hand, I never used it as a duty weapon out in the desert. It mostly went to ranges and was field stripped and cleaned between a couple hundred rounds. I probably put at least 5k rounds through it. Reliable and accurate.

But I won't second-guess men in the field. Their conditions aren't quite what I'm used to and I don't doubt them.

I considered buying another, but the plastic parts are not acceptable and I have come to prefer the .45 ACP.


----------



## pigmode

Glock QC seems to have degraded in the past couple of years. The jury is still out, but it doesn't look too encouraging.


----------



## marvin

Things haven't been right at Glock ever since the Gen 4 changeover. The .40S&W models seem to function correctly, but it's been a long sequence of issues with extractors and recoil assemblies on the 9mm variants. Couldn't have happened at a worse time either with the market success of the S&W M&P.
   
  The only issue I've had with RWS ammunition is that the jacket is copper plated mild steel. Makes it a no go for a lot of ranges around here.


----------



## pigmode

Shucks, I'd rather not have to chance platform. An option would be to maintain a "for training" inventory. S&W and possibly HK are potential suitors, the former more than the latter, as I'd prefer a striker fire configuration.


----------



## FlatNine

Agreed - which is why I located a Gen 3 model when I got it, about 6 months ago. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  
  Quote: 





marvin said:


> Things haven't been right at Glock ever since the Gen 4 changeover. The .40S&W models seem to function correctly, but it's been a long sequence of issues with extractors and recoil assemblies on the 9mm variants. Couldn't have happened at a worse time either with the market success of the S&W M&P.
> 
> The only issue I've had with RWS ammunition is that the jacket is copper plated mild steel. Makes it a no go for a lot of ranges around here.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Nice, a functional piece of history. I had a German made PPK/S bought in the early 70's, when the PPK was restricted from import by the GCA '68, and before Walther began U.S. production. The PPK/S is a PPK slide on a PP frame.


 


  I really enjoyed the PPK/s too.  The grip is more comfortable in my hand.  Only reason I went with my ppk is the size & weight are more suited for carrying on myself.


----------



## Towert7

Hey guys, I have a question.
   
  My Walther PPK has a horizontal adjustable rear sight.
  I think the sight was moved too much, and now it fits in very loosely.  Almost at the point where it won't stay put.
   
  Do you have any suggestions for fixing this?

 Ideally I would like to make it harder to move, but not sure what to use.  The spacing seems too small for a shim.
   
  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## grawk

with a piece like that, I'd take it to a trained smith.


----------



## GreenMachine

This is my main baby out of the collection. Refurbished one my grandfather used in the War.
   
  The rest of the collection.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Hey guys, I have a question.
> 
> My Walther PPK has a horizontal adjustable rear sight.
> I think the sight was moved too much, and now it fits in very loosely.  Almost at the point where it won't stay put.
> ...


 


   
  The usual procedure is to peen the bearing surface with a center punch, moving metal outwards for a good friction fit. The slide should be properly supported for sight removal and reinstallation---preferably with a brass punch.


----------



## Samgotit

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Shucks, I'd rather not have to chance platform. An option would be to maintain a "for training" inventory. S&W and possibly HK are potential suitors, the former more than the latter, as I'd prefer a striker fire configuration.


 

  
  LEM only on HK for me. It's a one trigger pull gun that way,  with a 'long' initial take up, so it eliminates the burden of training for two trigger pulls.  The DA pull on their newer DA/SA guns is abominable, (HK45 and P30).  Way past the the common "it's a safety feature" mantra. It borders on ridiculous.
   
  You also get second strike capability and the ability to ride the hammer while holstering --- if either is your thing.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





samgotit said:


> LEM only on HK for me. It's a one trigger pull gun that way,  with a 'long' initial take up, so it eliminates the burden of training for two trigger pulls.  *The DA pull on their newer DA/SA guns is abominable, (HK45 and P30)*.  Way past the the common "it's a safety feature" mantra. It borders on ridiculous.
> 
> You also get second strike capability and the ability to ride the hammer while holstering --- if either is your thing.


 


   
  Ahh, now I recall dry firing a DA/SA P30 in a local shop. I need to familiarize with the LEM for future reference.
   
  I remember when my brother stocked up on a lifetime supply of 3 proof marked, made in W. Germany SIGs. Silly me for not going along. The funny part is we knew this was going to happen.


----------



## revolink24

greenmachine said:


> This is my main baby out of the collection. Refurbished one my grandfather used in the War.
> 
> The rest of the collection.




What a beautiful Garand with great history. Congrats on owning such an awesome piece.


----------



## Towert7

My first Rifle:
   





  Tried it out last week and it works very nicely.  Now I need to join a proper shooting range and dial in the sights.


----------



## leftnose

Anybody a SIG fan?  I was browsing in my LGS last week and stumbled across this:
   

   
  A BNIB W. German Nickel 228.  Absolutely unfired sitting in a collector's safe since the early 90s.  It came home along with a 9mm Springfield 1911.  I think I might need to sell something to avoid buyer's remorse!


----------



## Guidostrunk

^Sig P229 .357 edition, love it.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Anybody a SIG fan?  I was browsing in my LGS last week and stumbled across this:
> 
> 
> 
> A BNIB W. German Nickel 228.  Absolutely unfired sitting in a collector's safe since the early 90s.  It came home along with a 9mm Springfield 1911.  I think I might need to sell something to avoid buyer's remorse!


 


   
  Is that nickel plated with german proof makes, on bbl, frame, slide? The 228 is considered one if the *b*est  and most reliable service pistols they're produced. O the other hand are those replacement grips?
   
  Envy.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





guidostrunk said:


> ^Sig P229 .357 edition, love it.


 


  Nope, 228 in 9mm.  The 228 predates the 229.  The 229 was released for .357SIG and .40S&W as the 228 was too light for the added recoil and would not have been durable enough.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Is that nickel plated with german proof makes, on bbl, frame, slide? The 228 is considered one if the *b*est  and most reliable service pistols they're produced. O the other hand are those replacement grips?
> 
> Envy.


 

  
  Yes, nickel plated, W. German roll marks, KB dated German proof marks.  Absolutely original and unfired.  This gun sat in a collector's safe for 20 years.  It is still sticky with cosmoline.


----------



## C38368

Been away from here for awhile, and haven't been doing much acquiring on account of being in graduate school, but I do have one new addition down here with me to share:
   

   
  Kahr PM9. Cute little bugger. Kinda beats the everloving snot out of your hand though. Not really a daily shooter, but oh-so-nice to carry.


----------



## Karlos

I had my PSS fitted with a turned bolt and an Arther Jewel trigger. The action was trued and it was then bedded into an AI stock. Shoots sub MOA all day I just love it.


----------



## Towert7

Nice.
   
  I just picked up a little Sig P238.  Going to try it tomorrow.  Hope it performs well!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Nice.
> 
> I just picked up a little Sig P238.  Going to try it tomorrow.  Hope it performs well!


 

 Gah you person!  You beat me to it.  =(  It should do very well for ya.  To my knowledge the only thing maybe better in class is the Walther and that's at a slight weight and size penalty.
   
  Which version did you grab and why?


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Gah you person!  You beat me to it.  =(  It should do very well for ya.  To my knowledge the only thing maybe better in class is the Walther and that's at a slight weight and size penalty.
> 
> Which version did you grab and why?


 


  Yes, I have the walther PPK.  It's a little larger and heavier.   The p238 is pretty much the smallest gun I can buy in MA from a dealer. 
   
  I got the black slide and rosewood grips.
   
  The first P238's had some bugs, so I'm hoping they worked them out by now.  Going to try it tomorrow and see.  Fingers crossed.  Should be interested to see how it compares to firing the PPK.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote:  

 Very nice.  I believe the bugs have been worked out but definitely keep us posted.  A friend just got a 226 and when I tried it I had failure to feed on the fifth round.  I was kind of shocked having been used to old Sig quality.  The only pistol I have that fickle is the old Gen1 IMI DE .50 but you aren't really supposed to take that seriously though my friend can snipe with that thing.  Pretty amazing how accurate he is with it, more so than the 226 ironically.


----------



## Vanhornmp

Nintendo gun..


----------



## buffalowings

recurve bow for me, no iron sights, scope, peep sights


----------



## Towert7

Tried the p238 today.  Very comfortable to shoot compared to my PPK which bites into my hand.  I could shoot the p238 all day.  Trigger is no where near as nice as the PPK, but oh well.  Sights work nice.
   
  I think it has replaced the PPK as my carry gun.


----------



## leftnose

I've been selling off most of my headphones as I live in my own house now and have been using a speaker system.  I'm not abandoning Head-Fi as I still like to read about developments for portables.  That said, the money that's coming in from headphones is buying me some nice new guns!
   
  Springfield Loaded Target in 9mm:

  Since this pic was taken, I've added a magwell, changed the grips, and painted the front sight:

   
  I've got at my FFL right now as well a S&W M&P9 FS and a SIG 229 German which I probably won't be able to pick up until Saturday but that should be it for now!


----------



## Richiyaado

I had a Sig P238, and thought it was a great little pistol (sort of a mini 1911)... brought it to the range, and it shot like a dream... accurate, little recoil, etc.. Yet, in the end, I wasn't really comfortable with a SA for CC, so I sold it.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





richiyaado said:


> I had a Sig P238, and thought it was a great little pistol (sort of a mini 1911)... brought it to the range, and it shot like a dream... accurate, little recoil, etc.. Yet, in the end, I wasn't really comfortable with a SA for CC, so I sold it.


 

  
  Yea, the 'cocked and locked' doesn't bother me that much.
   
  The safety switch is firm enough that I'm not afraid of it switching off when holstered.
   
  I really wish it had a decocking lever though!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Yea, the 'cocked and locked' doesn't bother me that much.
> 
> The safety switch is firm enough that I'm not afraid of it switching off when holstered.
> 
> I really wish it had a decocking lever though!


 

 Yeah, not gonna happen on those 1911 designs.  Definitely psychological and training adjustment necessary.


----------



## Draygonn

When Neo went to rescue Morpheus he wanted "Guns, lots of Guns" Apparently being The One isn't much without an MP5.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14[/VIDEO]


Here is my '93 .44 mag Ruger Vaquero.


----------



## Richiyaado

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Yea, the 'cocked and locked' doesn't bother me that much.
> 
> The safety switch is firm enough that I'm not afraid of it switching off when holstered.
> 
> I really wish it had a decocking lever though!


 


 Yeah, probably just a psychological thing... thought I'd be comfortable with just snicking off the safety, but couldn't stop thinking about it... I ended up getting an LCP for everyday pocket carry. (Okay, I'm a wuss!)


----------



## pigmode

A glimpse of one of my G19s.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





c38368 said:


> Been away from here for awhile, and haven't been doing much acquiring on account of being in graduate school, but I do have one new addition down here with me to share:
> 
> 
> 
> Kahr PM9. Cute little bugger. Kinda beats the everloving snot out of your hand though. Not really a daily shooter, but oh-so-nice to carry.


 


  Aren'
  t these nice pistols?  Mine has a very smooth trigger pull and even handles heavy 9mm+ comfortably.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





grawk said:


> a muzzle break just redirects the gas to the sides instead of back.  It's not a supressor, it actually makes things louder.


 


 Are you familiar with the Vais line of muzzle brakes?  Very effective in allowing you to spot your own hits and shooters bedise me on the line say it's no louder to them than an un-braked rifle.  There's a small chamber inside the back where it screws on that allows gases to access the longitudinal holes ahead of when the gases get to the transverse drillings.  I really like mine.


----------



## grawk

I wasn't really making any commentary other than to say it's not a silencer


----------



## tyrion

I had a PM9 for a while but I hated to shoot it so it's gone.


----------



## grawk

My wife's got the stainless mini kahr.  I like that well enough, although it's the only pistol I've ever accidentally discharged.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> I think the Sig p238 has replaced the PPK as my carry gun.


 


  It did.
  Sold the PPK and kept the p238.  Much more comfortable to carry inside the waistband.
   
   
  I've been bit by the rifle bug.  I got myself a little 22LR rifle (CZ 452).  I'm going to see just how much of a target sniper rifle I can make out of it.
  Equipped it with a bipod.  Right now I'm waiting on rings to come so I can mount my scope on it. 
  First step is to take it to 100 yards, and then I need to start searching out a place where I can go even longer (hopefully 300-500 yards).  Easier said than done in MA.


----------



## grawk

You're not going to get much farther with 22lr regardless of what state you're in.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> I've been bit by the rifle bug.  I got myself a little 22LR rifle (CZ 452).  I'm going to see just how much of a target sniper rifle I can make out of it.
> Equipped it with a bipod.  Right now I'm waiting on rings to come so I can mount my scope on it.
> First step is to take it to 100 yards, and then I need to start searching out a place where I can go even longer (hopefully 300-500 yards).  Easier said than done in MA.


 


 You will soon figure out that the most accurate .22LR ammunition is the standard velocity stuff (@1100FPS).  The supersonic .22LR stuff goes supersonic in the barrel, but after that it's all trans-sonic destabilization with a low ballistic coefficient unjacketed lead bullet.  It's best to think of the .22LR as a 75 yard proposition for the targets it is capable of.  Whenever I've shot the .22LR at 100 yards, I've been impressed by being able to actually see the slow bullet through the scope in its arcing flight and by the huge amount of drift you can get in a mild breeze due to the ballistics of the bullet and the long flight time.
   
  That is not to say that micro-sniping has no future.  Peter Hathaway Capstick was a professional hunter and writer in Africa during the second half of the twentieth century.  He developed the recreation of micro-sniping with precision .177 airguns, but there is no reason not to apply the same principles to mini-sniping with the .22LR.  Capstick was a realist and saw no reason to shoot airguns at ranges outside their capacities.  Instead, he went for small targets, targets that were proportionate to actual sniping targets at long range with the formula that 3/4" = 1,336.6 yards.  For example, using 9mm cases stuck in modeling clay as targets, at 35 yards present a target proportionate to the 29 inch average between belt buckle and scalp at 1,336.6 yards.  A 35mm film can at 35 yards would represent @650 yard shot.  It's all written up in his book "Last Horizons".  And it makes for great competitions at home.  Have fun!


----------



## C38368

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Aren'
> t these nice pistols?  Mine has a very smooth trigger pull and even handles heavy 9mm+ comfortably.


 
  I love it. A lot meaner on the hand than a full-size 1911, but otherwise great. And it fits pretty much everywhere.
   
  I did have to learn to grip the Kahr differently than I prefer for a 1911 (with my right thumbs on the slide release) to avoid hitting the mag release when I fire, but otherwise, it's a fine firearm.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Sig P2022 40S&W... looking to get a CZ-75B soon

   
  AK-74 from Rifle Dynamics... it's in CA trim here at home but this is when I was hanging out in Vegas... I run a thumbhole stock and 10rd mags over here. Stock Ak action except a birdcage style flash hider and american length polymer furniture... the Tapco polymer magazine is not mine.


   
  Norinco SKS... stock everything. 

   
  This is my "Hurricane Katrina" natural disaster scenario stash. Just kidding it's just my routine range trip haha. Lots and lots of Norinco chinese surplus 7.62x39.


   
  I'm second from the right. DPMS 18" 1/7 twist rifling stainless steel barrel upper with A2 flash hider on a Bushmaster lower with a Chip McCormick 2-stage trigger and Magpul MOE ergos. For the record I am not an AR-15 fan.

   
  And just to prove it's me:

   
  Flipping my new 29 Knives balisong!


----------



## Vipa

Used to own a Beretta 92 (one of the originals with the mag release at the bottom of the grip) was very sad when the law changed in the UK and she had to go!
   
  Currently own a Sako TRG-22 .308 stealth with S&B PMII 5-25 MSR atop..  Tikka T3 Lite Stainless 6.5x55, she used to wear a Swarovski Z6i but cashflow meant I had to sell it to get some cash..  will replace someday but currently has a Trijicon Accupoint on her.. jury is still out on this one..  I'm not convinced I did the right thing with the Trijicon when I could have had a bottom end Zeiss, S&B, or good Leupold for the same price..  the image seems very blurry round the edges at full mag.  Also have a Beretta Perennia SV10 12g and load all my own ammo (not the shot shells)  Have a lovely pair of Zeiss 8x45 rf bins for hunting too.


----------



## Vipa

Forgot to mention... I also have a Hoyt Vectrix compound bow which is very nice


----------



## Vipa

BUT... whilst that works in honing vertical skills, you just don't get the same wind issues over shorter distances.  You may simulate the relative size of a target but the most difficult thing about shooting is reading/compensating for wind.
   
  I was shooting 1,000 yards in competition this summer and we had a gusting 15mph l-r wind which was pushing the bullet 15 feet off target some shots, then when the wind dropped, almost nothing at all.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> with a Chip McCormick 2-stage trigger and Magpul MOE ergos. For the record I am not an AR-15 fan.


 

   
   
  I have Geisseles in all but one. I love the AK, but I need to relearn a bit if I put it away for a few mo.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> I have Geisseles in all but one. I love the AK, but I need to relearn a bit if I put it away for a few mo.


 

 I was considering a Geisseles since it's within the same price... but honestly I think those are way too high-speed for me (borderline dangerous since I'm not really a professional shooter) and I think you're not supposed to dry fire with those...
   
  I dry fire a lot out of boredom when I was home a lot... but alas I'm not an AR-15 shooter anymore just because the cost of decent synethetic lubricants and ammo. Unless I owned a Colt, LWRC, Noveske, or Daniel, I wouldn't shoot hot loaded 5.56 NATO from a .223 chamber... which is sad since 5.56 NATO surplus is really cheap and has plenty of power and cycles wonderfully in a good AR. I tried some mags full when I was in Vegas and I'd get really wonky hangups haha. They always tell you to put all your money in your upper and thats when you know you should have listened!
   
  If you ever come up to CA, we should go shoot my friend's CA legal 7.62x39 RPK... thing tears apart big ol rocks no problem!
   
  It's not financially possible for me to have all these now haha, I was able to just hoard money to buy this stuff back when I was working and not in school, I'm in my third year of college and I rarely buy new guns unless it's just a straight trade or trade + cash. The new headphone lounge business thing does provide me with some funds to put into my long neglected shooting hobby however.


----------



## pigmode

Haven't heard about the dry fire issue with Geissele. I have a couple of his Hi-Speed triggers in my (large pin) Colts, one with probably close to 20,000 dry fires with no problems. The Hi-Speed is the one with the adjustable over travel, and can be set in three configuration. The Hi-Speed was not my first choice, but was the only option for the Colt large pin till he offered it in his service model, the SSA. I have Colts, LMTs, and Bravo Co's, all with 5.56 chambers.
   
  My 3 issues with intermittent use of the AK are the magazine pivot pin, the charging handle, and the safety. Consistent positive engagement of the pivot pin comes back in a session or two or three. With the charging handle I end up with an occasional a 1-2 sec delay, but that's the way it is. The safety is the main issue because we don't use it the same as on the AR.


----------



## Chris_Himself

I wouldn't call it an issue.. it's just respecting sensitive instrument for what they are haha. That sounds fancy!
   
  How do you like your BCM? They're like an LWRC/LMT for less money right? LMT is horridly expensive for me but their complete uppers come with very nice acessories and the monolithic rail is top notch.
   
  I use both, I'm hands down deadlier on the AR... I prefer to shoot the AK since I like being the "bad guy" at the range haha. I live in Northern California with all the rich people (I'm not rich, I live in the semi-janky area) so they're all shooting AR-10's with designer glass on them lol.
   
  I only own the AK, SKS, and a beater Mosin I use to bang on the wall to tell my neighbors to shut up (I live in a townhouse which has shared walls with your neighbor haha)


----------



## pigmode

My BCM are mid-length uppers on LMT lowers. Then there are 2 large pin 6920, and 2 LMT 16" carbines. They're all good. I had a mountain of Golden Tiger 7.62x39, but also use Brown Bear. Not as inexpensive as corrosive, but I'm too lazy for that. I clean every 1000-1500 rd. 
   
  We usually train in Vegas near Red Rock, but for now, not so much recently. Dry firing is critical for periods such as this.
   
  I came close to getting a really nice WW 2 Mosin, but chickened out. Neat to have but I like to keep my inventory tight, so there was no room for it.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





grawk said:


> You're not going to get much farther with 22lr regardless of what state you're in.


 


  People having fun shooting 22LR's out to 500 yards:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX4pLnt_9zg


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> My BCM are mid-length uppers on LMT lowers. Then there are 2 large pin 6920, and 2 LMT 16" carbines. They're all good. I had a mountain of Golden Tiger 7.62x39, but also use Brown Bear. Not as inexpensive as corrosive, but I'm too lazy for that. I clean every 1000-1500 rd.
> 
> We usually train in Vegas near Red Rock, but for now, not so much recently. Dry firing is critical for periods such as this.
> 
> I came close to getting a really nice WW 2 Mosin, but chickened out. Neat to have but I like to keep my inventory tight, so there was no room for it.


 

 Dang didn't even want to cut costs on your lower, plus two colts and two LMT complete rifles?? Thats insane man. I use the ****ty Wolf 1000rd packs and the Russian milsurp corrosive (it is, right) stuff for 5.45.
   
  I clean every other shooting session for my AK's... I clean the pistols there at the range if there aren't people waiting for lanes. The Mosin is really overrated... lots of love for the rifle and how cheap the ammo is for sure, but I prefer the SKS to it since it can at least relate to modern day rifles. 54R is just brutal and shoots fireballs and makes everybody go deaf lol...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> People having fun shooting 22LR's out to 500 yards:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX4pLnt_9zg


 

 People having fun shooting 120mm out to 1700 yards:


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> People having fun shooting 120mm out to 1700 yards:


 


  Hmm... I wonder if my FFL will accept a transfer for an M1 Abrhams.. and if the transfer fee is still 25 bucks for 70 tons of steel


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Hmm... I wonder if my FFL will accept a transfer for an M1 Abrhams.. and if the transfer fee is still 25 bucks for 70 tons of steel


 

 You got $4,000,000?  I think you can get one for $2,500,000 refurbed.  Of course we all know the real cost is in ammo and gas!  Half a mile per gallon.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit - That's jet fuel btw, not pump Diesel.  JP8.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> You got $4,000,000?  I think you can get one for $2,500,000 refurbed.  Of course we all know the real cost is in ammo and gas!  Half a mile per gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I know the Abrams uses that funky gas turbine engine which did you know btw they don't make anymore, so after the last M1 was made with it, they're just refurbing every single one! I saw it on an episode of Overhauled on Discovery or History or some other nerd channel I watch haha...
   
  It said that it actually runs on almost any combustable fuel, jet fuel, unleaded gasoline, and diesel along with some other crap with additives haha. Apparently that + the instantaneous torque from the turbine was the reason to go with that design over a turbo diesel powerplant.
   
  Although they ARE loaded to use jet fuel from the factory....
   
  Have you seen South Korea's new MBT? It's crazy!


----------



## Towert7

Tanks are cool, but for that price I'd rather get a little 50cal bolt action gun and a nice scope for some long range shooting.
  ^_^


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I know the Abrams uses that funky gas turbine engine which did you know btw they don't make anymore, so after the last M1 was made with it, they're just refurbing every single one! I saw it on an episode of Overhauled on Discovery or History or some other nerd channel I watch haha...
> 
> It said that it actually runs on almost any combustable fuel, jet fuel, unleaded gasoline, and diesel along with some other crap with additives haha. Apparently that + the instantaneous torque from the turbine was the reason to go with that design over a turbo diesel powerplant.
> 
> ...


 

 Thx, I had one for 6 years.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Actually, the diesel V12 as found in the German Leopard has the torque advantage, not the Turbine.  The turbine was picked for outright speed and horsepower as the M1 was designed as an offensive tank unlike a Merkava.  Plus you will never see an M1 running on anything but JP8 in the US armed forces, it's standard and I've never used anything else otherwise or seen/heard the contrary.  So they ARE loaded w/ JP8 all the time.
   
  The K2 looks like a derivative of the Leopard2 w/ a unique suspension modeled after the Swedish Stridsvagn.  The gun is the same as ours and the Leo.  The Korean Pack failed it seems so they will be sourcing the German parts for their V12 instead.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Tanks are cool, but for that price I'd rather get a little 50cal bolt action gun and a nice scope for some long range shooting.
> ^_^


 

 It comes w/ a .50cal M2.


----------



## pigmode

Yeah I like my 50 cal in an M2, thanks. Try carrying the receiver of that baby 2mi to the motor pool.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Thx, I had one for 6 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Yeah I like my 50 cal in an M2, thanks. Try carrying the receiver of that baby 2mi to the motor pool.


 


  I think I found my two new best friends on HF...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Yeah I like my 50 cal in an M2, thanks. Try carrying the receiver of that baby 2mi to the motor pool.


 

 That sounds like PT.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I saw a SEAL carrying 2 complete receivers and barrels, one in each arm over over at the sandbox.


----------



## Towert7

Finally got some mounting hardware to mount the scope on my rifle.  Not ideal, but it should do for now. 
   
   




   
  Should be nice weather tomorrow, so I'll go out and zero it.


----------



## Anaxilus

I'm still in awe you live in MA.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Should be nice weather tomorrow, so I'll go out and zero it.


 


  Went out and zeroed it at 50 yards.  It's a nice target setup.  Shooting out to 100 yards with no wind was too easy.  I need more range!


----------



## Mozu

anaxilus said:


> That sounds like PT.    I saw a SEAL carrying 2 complete receivers and barrels, one in each arm over over at the sandbox.  :blink:




Carrying _one_ of those barrels on a march was bad enough...


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





mozu said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   
  Similar to a 90mm recoiless rifle, but the 90mm does not dig into your shoulder.


----------



## Karlos

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> It did.
> Sold the PPK and kept the p238.  Much more comfortable to carry inside the waistband.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  300 to 500 yards with a rimfire is just not realistic mate.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





karlos said:


> 300 to 500 yards with a rimfire is just not realistic mate.


 


  perhaps.  I'm going to keep pushing my setup until I hit a limit.
  So far 100 yards is way too easy.
   
  I also decided I wanted more magnification, so I'm swapping my 3.5-15 scope for a 5.5-22 scope.


----------



## liamstrain

For 22LR, personally - I'd stick to 100 yards and just work on my accuracy within that. Unless you are already consistently within 1/4-1/2 MOA.
   
  Once you get past 200 though, you are going to have to compensate for a LOT of bullet drop with a 22LR, not to mention nasty windage as that light bullet gets slower. 
   
  Also - if you are really after pushing limits - stick with iron sights and see how accurate you can get. Used target sets are not too pricey (or a new Lyman)... but a new Warner #1 or Phoenix Precision sight will run you a pretty penny.


----------



## Old Pa

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> People having fun shooting 22LR's out to 500 yards:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX4pLnt_9zg


 


 I've shot .22LR out to 400 yards, and the time-of-flight was longer than shown in that video.  I'd say they were maybe at 300 yards.  And dead still, too, from the looks of that mirage.  Probably a 48" to 50" light steel target, judging from the ring.  They didn't start filming until they had the range dialed in.  Too bad it's so out of focus or you should have been able to see the bullet in flight at that velocity.
   
  Tower 7:  Are those the lowest mounts you could get for that scope?  Parralax could be a problem, not to mention getting a stiff neck.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





old pa said:


> Tower 7:  Are those the lowest mounts you could get for that scope?  Parralax could be a problem, not to mention getting a stiff neck.


 


  Thanks for the suggestion.  No, that was a less than ideal way of mounting it to the rifle.  I couldn't find anything local to me that fit better, so I had to order a few things online.  They should arrive this weekend, hopefully they will fit better.
  My biggest problem with the rifle is the rear elevation sight which is not easily removable.  If I didn't have that, I could use rings I already have that would bring the scope much closer to the barrel.  I'm seriously considering swapping my thin barrel cz 452 with a heavy barrel version without the rear elevation piece (no iron sights).
   
  Also, after using the scope I decided I wanted higher magnification, so I will be swapping the 3.5-15x50 for a 5.5-22x56.  Should suite my intended use a little better.


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> For 22LR, personally - I'd stick to 100 yards and just work on my accuracy within that. Unless you are already consistently within 1/4-1/2 MOA.


 

 Thanks liamstrain.  For the short term I think that is what I'll end up doing.


----------



## Old Pa

Check on Brownells.com.  I've been doing business with these people for over thirty years.  Between them and Midway, you should be able to find everything you need.
   
  Have you thought about the .22Mag rimfire?  I've had several of these and presently have a Cooper and a Ruger 77/22M synthetic ("the bushcraft rifle")  (guess which one is more accurate? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).  While .22LR is basically a 75 yard proposition for the size of targets with which it can effectively deal, .22Mag with jacketed hollowpoints at twice the velocity is good on targets twice as large out to at least 125 yards.  When you think about it, the vitals of most small game represents a target the size of a golfball.  Your effective range should be that range where you can keep ten out of ten shots within an inch, center to center.  The difference in effect on both cartridges on prairie dogs at 75 yards has to be seen to be believed.


----------



## uzy123

Wow Wow Wee what a nice collection, if only we could own guns in the UK
  Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Sig P2022 40S&W... looking to get a CZ-75B soon
> 
> 
> AK-74 from Rifle Dynamics... it's in CA trim here at home but this is when I was hanging out in Vegas... I run a thumbhole stock and 10rd mags over here. Stock Ak action except a birdcage style flash hider and american length polymer furniture... the Tapco polymer magazine is not mine.
> ...


----------



## GreatDane

My new XD9


----------



## TruBrew

A friend of mine just bought one of these. After the purchase we went to the range to put some rounds through it. I was a fan.


----------



## nmxdaven

Had a cleaning day for the guns I've shot recently. Trust when I say theres much more.  I am from Texas afterall. My current rifle collection numbers around 26, handguns 22 and shotguns a lowly 8.
   

   
  If I had to pick my two favs it would be between my little 3inch Colt and my .357 derringer. Both picked for their emotional value.


----------



## Chris_Himself

You've got some ******* nice .308's man... when I get my cashflow right I'd love to have a PTR-91 one day and shoot 'dem cold war suplus bullets


----------



## Chris_Himself

You've got some ******* nice .308's man... when I get my cashflow right I'd love to have a PTR-91 one day and shoot 'dem cold war suplus bullets


----------



## nmxdaven

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> You've got some ******* nice .308's man... when I get my cashflow right I'd love to have a PTR-91 one day and shoot 'dem cold war suplus bullets


 


  That DPMS in the last pic is my favorite one. Daniel Defence quad, atlas bipod, magpul PRS stock, a Trijicon 3x9 sitting on A.R.M.S. quick release mounts and as of last week a custom made Rob Sculer muzzle break. It tears up the ground squirles out here.  I kept it short barrel for easy transportation in the truck, but honestly it keeps up pretty darn well with my bull barreled 24inchers. Not a tack driver past 600m, but still great it its own right.
   

   
  I love the PTR's. Thats a gun I've never had the pleasure to own.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





nmxdaven said:


> That DPMS in the last pic is my favorite one. Daniel Defence quad, atlas bipod, magpul PRS stock, a Trijicon 3x9 sitting on A.R.M.S. quick release mounts and as of last week a custom made Rob Sculer muzzle break. It tears up the ground squirles out here.  I kept it short barrel for easy transportation in the truck, but honestly it keeps up pretty darn well with my bull barreled 24inchers. Not a tack driver past 600m, but still great it its own right.
> 
> 
> 
> I love the PTR's. Thats a gun I've never had the pleasure to own.


 

 I had a DPMS 18.5" upper with the SS barrel and just a regular A2 flash hider at the end. I don't have the pleasure of shooting glass so I just thought I'd go old school with Troy flip up sights, I borrow some of my friends Aimpoints from time to time though... I do a lot of 100 yard drills on mil-surp ammo so they're all loaded hot and pretty accurate to boot. Anything within 300 yards is just a matter of eyesight and easy prey haha.
   
  DD quads are expensive, thats almost half an AK for just your rail but sometimes you just gotta have it right?
   
  Gotta send some money my way man, I'm trying to squeeze money together for a S&W Range Officer... I can't compete without a 1911, I could care less for the hyper patriotism that follows the gun or it's service history... I flat out cannot compete in competitive pistol shooting without one... some of these guys can seriously do like 1-1.5MOA at 25 yards.. I'm lucky if I can hit a 6" plate in the same spot twice at 10 with a Springfield XD9.
   
  The cable thing just pays for my expensive thai food habit LOL


----------



## nmxdaven

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I had a DPMS 18.5" upper with the SS barrel and just a regular A2 flash hider at the end. I don't have the pleasure of shooting glass so I just thought I'd go old school with Troy flip up sights, I borrow some of my friends Aimpoints from time to time though... I do a lot of 100 yard drills on mil-surp ammo so they're all loaded hot and pretty accurate to boot. Anything within 300 yards is just a matter of eyesight and easy prey haha.
> 
> DD quads are expensive, thats almost half an AK for just your rail but sometimes you just gotta have it right?
> 
> ...


 

 Yea the DD's are expensive, but you can feel why when you hold it in your hand. They are the epitome of quality. I love the .308 just for its versatility. You can hot load them and they will rip your shoulder off or you can run them light and suppressed. The only other rounds I have more fun with is the .357/.44 mags, and for much of the same reasons.
   
  Lol I'm waiting for you to get back to me on those cables I was asking about. I'd be happy to throw some your way!
   
  The range officer is a quality 1911 at a great price IMO. I'm not an old school guy, I dont have any ties to the gun itself, but they are wonderful for carry arms. As a somewhat slender guy, they are thin enough for me to easy conceal. The other plus is they are just drop dead sexy.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Oh crap I missed that e-mail, I actually am in between cell phone contracts right now and my Asian parents hate when I make long distance calls lol, we gotta keep it to e-mail only!
   
  Hmm I gotta go fondle a dude's rail now at the gun shop I see... so far the only rails I've used are midwest industries and they do the job but I see where there are machining marks and stuff... they seem like good buys for 150 though... DD's are at least twice that much.
   
  Yeah I noticed that mil-surp .308 (German DAG) are some real elephant tacklers, but some of the shelf stuff is pretty managable on the recoil... I can see how .308 battle rifles can be either a battle rifle or a precision rifle just on ammo and trigger alone!
   
  I shouldn't have posted in this thread, I'm getting the gun itch again real bad


----------



## addylo

A gun thread!  I'll play.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





addylo said:


> A gun thread!  I'll play.


 


  No fair, all Glocks and XD's look the same haha


----------



## nmxdaven

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Oh crap I missed that e-mail, I actually am in between cell phone contracts right now and my Asian parents hate when I make long distance calls lol, we gotta keep it to e-mail only!
> 
> Hmm I gotta go fondle a dude's rail now at the gun shop I see... so far the only rails I've used are midwest industries and they do the job but I see where there are machining marks and stuff... they seem like good buys for 150 though... DD's are at least twice that much.
> 
> ...


 

 Absolutly. Do you hand load at all? Thats where the fun really starts with the .308.


----------



## addylo

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> No fair, all Glocks and XD's look the same haha


 

 Hehe!  It's an XD9SC.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





nmxdaven said:


> Absolutly. Do you hand load at all? Thats where the fun really starts with the .308.


 


  Yes I load my own 9mm, .45ACP and match grade .223. I feel like a scientist whenever I'm handloading haha.
   
  For the most part for the trouble and time I still prefer to go mil-surp .308 although to be fair it's also because I don't know the loading data for any of the .30 caliber cartridges. Thanks for the order by the way... I'm like a couple hundred short of that Range Officer now


----------



## Towert7

Changed scopes on my little 22LR target rifle.  I cheaped out and downgraded to a little Bushnell 10x fixed tactical elite scope.  Optically it's not as nice as the nightforce, leupold, or nikon I had, but it's still perfectly acceptable and very good for target shooting.  It's a heck of a lot better than the cheap SS scopes I tried (10x, 16x).  For 217$us I love it.
   
  Went to the range today and zeroed it in.  Low 50's today, in MA in January.  Love this warm weather.
   
  Once I got it zeroed, and started to bare down on it using the bipod off the bench I got 100yard 4shot avg group sizes of about 1.262, 1.119, and *0.5955* inches using federal bulk 22LR ammo.
  I was thrilled with the 0.5955 inch 4 shot group!!  That works out to approx 0.569 MOA.


----------



## leftnose

Just put a set of Talon Grips on my 5" M&P 9 Pro.  I'm liking them!


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Just put a set of Talon Grips on my 5" M&P 9 Pro.  I'm liking them!


 


 I shoot an XD9 competitively and not once have I thought about improving the ergos! Great work!


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I shoot an XD9 competitively and not once have I thought about improving the ergos! Great work!


 

 Not quite sure what you're saying here.  You've never thought about the ergos because they're GTG or you just never thought about doing something to them?
   
  To me, the M&P has the best ergos of any of the full size polymer pistols.  I have big hands and I can't reach the magazine release on Glocks and, like many people, they point high for me.  XDs feel very top heavy to me and I don't like that you can't rack the slide without depressing the grip safety.
   
  Honestly, I don't see adding grip tape as really doing anything to the ergonomics of the pistol.  This is a competition gun and I need to do whatever I can to hold on to it.  I'm not making a fundamental change to the pistol like a grip reduction or anything.  I wouldn't dream of putting these on a carry gun (even though I can't carry in my home state 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), either.


----------



## pigmode

I plan to order a 3 MP9, next trip to America.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> I plan to order a 3 MP9, next trip to America.


 

 Oh don't do that.  Grab a new Tommy gun!


----------



## liamstrain

Quote: 





nmxdaven said:


> I love the .308 just for its versatility. You can hot load them and they will rip your shoulder off or you can run them light and suppressed.


 


  Totally agree. Great round with lots of potential. With a ton of great loads commercially available (even some good competition grade ones), and a bajillion hand loading options... 
   
  Eventually, I'll move away from Chicago, and can get back into long range/palma style shooting. 
   
  Sigh.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Not quite sure what you're saying here.  You've never thought about the ergos because they're GTG or you just never thought about doing something to them?
> 
> To me, the M&P has the best ergos of any of the full size polymer pistols.  I have big hands and I can't reach the magazine release on Glocks and, like many people, they point high for me.  XDs feel very top heavy to me and I don't like that you can't rack the slide without depressing the grip safety.
> 
> ...


 

 I just meant that I've never thought of messing with the ergos... they're not exactly perfect but it shoots better than a Glock, due to the point of aim with the factory sights... they do point high for me too.
   
  I normally rather slow with reloads... if you see me with that XD it's all the gun and not me. Something about that magazine well just nailed it for me. 
   
  I oddly have the most trigger time with a Sig P226 yet it is not a gun I have ever owned. It's just the range rental pistol and I've probably put about 3k through it and it was the only gun I shot for months. I really ought to buy one but it's seriously the cost of a decent 1911 and I don't see it being any better than an FNP, USP (which are already expensive), XD, or Glock. Also the slide and frame can rust which is a no-no for carry pistols in hot weather, not that the county of Santa Clara will ever grant me a CCW or anything.
   
  I kind of want an FNX now after the positive experience I had with the FNP, not to mention how super affordable it was for me. I'd have to do private transfer though since it's not on my state's OK-list due to the over 10 round capacity and lack of a magazine disconnect safety.


----------



## leftnose

I have a 226R SCT as my nightstand gun:
   

   
  I also have a German triple S/N 229R with an ilaflon finish, and a NIB W. German Nickel 228.
   
  The frame of classic series SIGs is aluminum or stainless and won't rust.  The slide of newer guns is stainless and nitron and ilaflon both are pretty good finishes so it won't rust either.  What will rust like crazy are the grip screws but replacement with an aftermarket version will cure that.
   
  You can find a ton of 228 police trade-ins right now for ~$400.  Many people feel the 228 is the best pistol SIG has ever made other than the 210.  However, 228s do have carbon steel slides that can rust.  However, $400 for a trade-in + $175 for a modern finish that the gun might need anyway and will prevent any rust isn't a bad deal!
   
  And you can get a super decent 1911, an STI Spartan, for ~$630.


----------



## pigmode

leftnose, what are the reasons that you relegate the M&P to game gun status?


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> leftnose, what are the reasons that you relegate the M&P to game gun status?


 
   
  Who says that I do?  I have two M&Ps, the 5" 9 Pro and a 9FS.  The Pro is a game/range gun.  The FS is my SHTF gun and resides in my Go bag with 6 magazines.  No concealed carry in IL but for that, I wouldn't carry any double stack gun anyway.
   
  The 226 is my HD gun because of the 20-round magazines and the night sights already on the gun.  Neither M&P has night sights.  This is about to change, though, since Brownells is finally shipped my Warren Tactical 3-dot nights sights yesterday.


----------



## motrix

my SHTF/nightstand is a full rail SA TRP Pro, have a Baer Custom Carry, and a Kimber CDPII Ultra too to round out my 1911s.  
   
  As for 9's I love my CZ SP01 Tactical for a far as ergonomics go and my hard chromed HK P7M8 both sporting Nill grips.


----------



## pigmode

I work with a Wilson 1911 about every other year--just for familiarization. Same thing with SIGs, usually 226/228 in 9mm or .40. All have been reliable as *hell*.
   
  I seriously miss my early New Hampshire 220ST, and as far as I'm concerned the SIG of today has lost its mojo. When their slide releases began having catastrophic failures, I moved on. Sad, I'm over it already.
   
  I'm looking forward to transitioning to the M&P. To tell the truth, after years with the 1911 I had no problems adapting to the Glock handgrip angle. Glocks are natural pointers for me.


----------



## zheric

I started getting into firearms a couple months ago after a stint with archery and the first things I picked up were a M&P9 and M&P15-22.  I think next on my list is an Spikes Tactical AR.


----------



## Towert7

My current 22LR target rifle setup:
 CZ452 small barrel, bushnell tactical elite 10x, harris bipod
   
   



   
   
   
  Couple of weeks ago I picked up a glock 22 and glock 27.
  I've had much smaller guns, but the glock 27 is by far the most comfortable gun I've ever worn on my side.  After 5 minutes it disappears for the rest of the day.
  The two glocks shoot pretty nice too.
  I load my 27 with 9 rounds of 0.40cal winchester FBI white box overrun I picked up at cabelas for 16$ (50 180gr bonded waterproof JHP bullets).  Love it!
   
  I was afraid I would find the little 27 to be snappy, but I don't.  Only the american eagle 155gr bullets hurt, all others are comfortable.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Springfield Range Officer 1911
   
  It shoots a lot like their TRP but you don't get a lot of the nicer ergos, and finish that you do on that model. The sights are also not that good and the slide isn't milled for the really nice Novak sights (dovetail)


----------



## nmxdaven

Gorgeous! Great pictures.


----------



## EPcnD

For you military guys Glock offers *huge *discount - I just got a new G19 w/ three mags for $425 (+$25 NICS fee).  At that price I don't think you'll find another pistol reliable enough for CCW.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





epcnd said:


> For you military guys Glock offers *huge *discount - I just got a new G19 w/ three mags for $425 (+$25 NICS fee).  At that price I don't think you'll find another pistol reliable enough for CCW.


 


  I think CZ and Springfield can do it too. I haven't had a stoppage with my XD9 and the new XDS single stack is coming out. Although that is quite a substantial discount.


----------



## pigmode

Its called the blue label (blue sticker). Some authorized leo dealers shift around magazines and prices, which causes the confusion with the red sticker etc. There is also a deal for retired military.


----------



## pigmode

Here's the G19 set up, and its AmeriGlo .180" rear/w no white outlines. The increased light on both sides means faster acquisition. I like.


----------



## zedaristo

I just put a new sig sp2022 in jail today. then gonna start on a AR15 i been planning on doing for a while, can't wait


----------



## EPcnD

I've been using the $90 laserlyte adjustable cartridge for dry firing my 9mm and 38 snub.  Its a great tool that gives instant feedback for practicing trigger control, and after testing this I don't see a need for 22 LR trainers.


----------



## daveDerek

these are some of the rarest and most unusual pistols you'll come across:
   
  http://www.christies.com/features/singing-bird-pistols-en-1422-3.aspx


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





davederek said:


> these are some of the rarest and most unusual pistols you'll come across:
> 
> http://www.christies.com/features/singing-bird-pistols-en-1422-3.aspx


 


  OH....MY....GOD!!


----------



## Brimstone

My Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm Full Size w/ stippling done by me:

  In a Crown Holster:

   
  This is my AR15.  It is a mid-length gas system that I built myself with primarily a Bravo Company upper and a Smith & Wesson lower:


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





brimstone said:


> My Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm Full Size w/ stippling done by me:


 
  Nice job!  I put a Talon grip on my 5" M&P Pro and it is much better than stock!  I wish I had the courage to break out the soldering iron and stipple myself!
   
  I just picked up a new gun for myself, an XDm .45 5.25.  I keep my pistol calibers simple with only .38/.357, 9mm, and .45.  I wanted to add a double stack .45 but wanted something different.  I don't like Glocks so the XD was the natural choice:


----------



## GreatDane

^ That XD looks sweet. That's exactly what I want next.
   
  I bought this several weeks ago. LCR .38. It's turned out to be a great pocket carry.


----------



## GreatDane

My XD9 in a modified White Hat Max Tuck IWB holster


----------



## Anaxilus

That's kind of a sexy revolver.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> That's kind of a sexy revolver.


 


  Ah yes, a lovely union of polymer, aluminum and stainless steel.
   
  ...while others think it's ugly as sin,


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





greatdane said:


> Ah yes, a lovely union of polymer, aluminum and stainless steel.
> 
> ...while others think it's ugly as sin,


 

 Hmmm?  I was too busy looking at the Hogue grip, cylinder and orange front sight post.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Here's another union of polymer, aluminum and SS.


----------



## JDeep

It's too bad Hong Kong has gun laws and no normal citizens are allowed to own guns. If I were allowed to own one, I would use it responsibly and treat it as it was loaded at all times. I would probably get a M1911 and change everything on it..


----------



## FlatNine

How do you like this holster. I tried a couple IWB's for my Glock 19 and never got used to the feel. So I went with a Ruger LCP for CCW.
   
  Quote: 





greatdane said:


> My XD9 in a modified White Hat Max Tuck IWB holster


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





flatnine said:


> How do you like this holster. I tried a couple IWB's for my Glock 19 and never got used to the feel. So I went with a Ruger LCP for CCW.


 
   

 Sorry for the delayed reply.
   
  The Max Tuck is the first and only IWB for my XD9. I've worn it for a couple months all day with great results. I have no fatigue from it. Only the weight of the gun is noticed.
   
  Since buying my LCR I haven't carried the XD9 much at work. I've been pocket carrying the LCR but just got a Mr. Softy IWB holster for it to have a second carry option.
   
  I have no interest in trying any other IWB holster for the XD9.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





user18 said:


> Do these count?


 
   

 I'm not a Gun collector but I do have a friend who is... and wow he's really into his Guns
   
  Anyways nice to see the extent of the diversity in our members and I'd have to say the above post xD very funny, and again don't mind my intrusion ^^


----------



## OnyxVulpe

Shot my first gun today, as well as a few others. Pic is one I got to shoot.


----------



## Anaxilus

So I was watching American Guns and there was a debate about cutting down the barrel of a Tommy Gun yielding increased muzzle velocity.  The Null hypothesis was that cutting down the 18" barrel to 16.5" would yield the increase.  They took the stock barrel and fired it through the traps and got about 805fps.  The barrel was then cut down 1.5" and fired again resulting in around 850fps!  How is this possible?  The only things I can think of are they cut the muzzle brake off when they shortened it or they used a hotter load in the second test fire.  Any thoughts?


----------



## grawk

I think the theory is relatively straight forward.  You need a barrel long enough to burn all the powder and get all the gas expansion you're going to get, and no more.  Once you've used up the propellant, you just have drag from the barrel.


----------



## Anaxilus

Ah, so it's because it's a pistol round being used in what is effectively a carbine at 18".  Makes sense, thx.


----------



## pigmode

It could be speculated that there were two loads available in 45 acp--for pistols and submachine guns, just as there is for 9mm today.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> It could be speculated that there were two loads available in 45 acp--for pistols and submachine guns, just as there is for 9mm today.


 
   
  This is true but would the second load take advantage of a full 18" BATF friendly barrel?  Even the sub Tommies are 10-11".


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Anyone have any experience shooting the HK MR556A1?


----------



## intoflatlines

FOID card should be arriving soon.. and I'm looking to pick up my first gun. After going to the range with a few buddies and shooting a bunch of different handguns, I'm really leaning towards the M&P 9mm full size kit.. thoughts?


----------



## leftnose

I loooove my M&P9 FS,  In fact, I have two M&Ps, the full size and a 5" Pro.  Much better feeling in the hand than a Glock and is proving lately to be just as reliable.  9mm is a smart choice if only for slightly cheaper ammo for practice.


----------



## intoflatlines

How do you like the 5"? Was thinking about that model but I'm liking the kit with 3 mags, holster, speedloader, etc. I'm doing 9mm for cheaper ammo, probably would just load up with some good hollow points for the home for now..


----------



## leftnose

I like the 5" a lot but it is really a target gun.  If I could only have one, it would be the FS.  The "improved" trigger of the Pro isn't that much better.  Both of my M&Ps have Apex DCAEK kits and RAMs (a very worthwhile upgrade).
   
  The kits are hard to find.  You might have to get a standard model and add the speedloader (a standard UpLULA -- worth the money no matter what), mags, and holster on your own.  If you have to go this route, look at Raven Concealment holsters. 
   
  Also think about taking the Utah concealed carry class (offered at GAT Guns in Dundee).  It's valid in WI so it does afford you some chance to carry as needed.


----------



## intoflatlines

Good info, thanks! I found the FS kit in stock at 2 stores that I've looked at, so that's a plus. My GF is taking the women's handgun class at GAT next month, that CCW class there sounds pretty good.
   
  Another possiblity is a Glock 17 gen 3, but after feeling how nice the M&P is in my hand, I don't think I'll go that route.


----------



## Szadzik

Would sign up for this thread if I had a gun, but I do not. I wish however, that Amazon send me one instead of a TV next time I order one 
   
  Guns are all around me every day, thousands of them, they get boring.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





szadzik said:


> Guns are all around me every day, thousands of them, they get boring.


 
   
  Then you're around the wrong kinds of guns.  They should never get boring.
   
  I just finished shooting the World FITASC Championship which was held at my gun club outside Chicago last week (last year it was in France, next year in Spain).  It's a big deal.
   
  It was fun walking around the vendors and seeing things like:
   

   
   
  or
   

   
   
  or
   

   
  or
   

   

   

   
   
  or
   

   
   
  or
   

   
  and things like:
   

   
   
  Plus shooting several tournaments worth about 700 shells over 6 days.  Definitely not boring!


----------



## xxhaxx

Subscribed 
   
  all I have so far is a   CZ75 .40SW and  Adam Arms ar15.






 Having multiple hobbies is bad for my wallet especially as a college student


----------



## Szadzik

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Then you're around the wrong kinds of guns.  They should never get boring.
> 
> I just finished shooting the World FITASC Championship which was held at my gun club outside Chicago last week (last year it was in France, next year in Spain).  It's a big deal.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I am talking about the real guns, those used to shoot to kill on a regular basis.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





szadzik said:


> I am talking about the real guns, those used to shoot to kill on a regular basis.


 
  Uh, sorry, but even a BB gun is a "real" gun.  Yours is a pretty f'd up definition.  All guns should be treated with respect and their end use doesn't make them more or less "real."


----------



## PFULMTL

I only have a FN Herstal FNP9 right now. I miss my Saiga AK. Sold it before I moved and will be selling the FNP9 when I move again because I'm going overseas for a while. Once I get settled down again, I'll be picking up new gear. Will get an S&W M&P9 or 45 and then another AK.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Smith & Wesson Performance Center 627


----------



## leftnose

I'm in the process of putting together a table-top studio in a spare bedroom and this was one of the first shots.
   

   
  I've got light stands and umbrellas on order but pleased with the results so far.


----------



## leftnose

And here's tonight's work:
   

   
   
  Still waiting for the additional lighting to arrive so I can stop down some more and get the necessary depth of field.


----------



## liamstrain

Use a tripod? Then you can stop down to your hearts content without the extra light (granting that you'll start to get softness due to diffraction at f16 and smaller...) 
   
   
  I think you got it pretty right on this shot tho. I'd personally have pulled the gun further forward, and opened up the aperture a bit, even if the back edge of the gun goes slightly soft, to further separate and blur the background.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Use a tripod? Then you can stop down to your hearts content without the extra light (granting that you'll start to get softness due to diffraction at f16 and smaller...)
> 
> 
> I think you got it pretty right on this shot tho. I'd personally have pulled the gun further forward, and opened up the aperture a bit, even if the back edge of the gun goes slightly soft, to further separate and blur the background.


 
   
   
  Well, I'm using speedlights, not studio lights, so my aperture is limited more by their output than shutter speed.  I think this was taken at f/11 and I was right at the ragged edge of high-ISO noise/DoF/flash power.
   
  You're not wrong about the placement of the gun though.  I'm still working out the kinks of setting up the studio.  The velvet I have for the backdrop is big enough but I bought a table that is a bit too small to allow good separation.


----------



## Irishpwnstar

This thread, is a good thread.
  two Sig Sauer Mosquito's
  Taurus .40 Pistol
  Savage 30-6
  Smith & Wesson .22 about 40 years old
   
  I was looking into purchasing the Saiga 12g, but the local store ran out right before my paycheck


----------



## leftnose

A bit more from the "studio."


----------



## Irishpwnstar

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> A bit more from the "studio."


 
  One of the most beautiful break action I've seen in awhile


----------



## intoflatlines




----------



## leftnose

Nice! You're all set for IDPA now!


----------



## intoflatlines

I'd love to get into that!
   
  On a related note, my girlfriend shot my M&P but had a few complaints.. even with the smallest backstrap on it was too large for her hands, it was slightly too hard to rack, and she didn't like the somewhat heavy/long trigger pull. So tonight I went out to look at some guns and held a Bersa Thunder 9mm UC Pro, and really liked it for her.. considerably smaller than my M&P (3.25in barrel, much smaller grip), not too light to keep recoil manageable (23 oz.), very comfortable/ergonomic, and decent capacity for a compact (13+1). Not to mention in SA the trigger pull is clean and short, and it's easier to rack the slide.
   
  Anyone have any experience with Bersa? Preferably their Thunder UC Pro in 9mm?
   
  http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/thunder-uc-pro-series.html


----------



## leftnose

Be sure she is racking correctly.  Assuming she's right handed, have her maintain a strong shooting grip with her right hand, place her left hand on top of the slide in front of the rear sight and squeeze with her whole hand.  She should be grabbing the slide with her whole hand with her palm on one side of the slide, her fingers wrapped over and around the slide.  Then push forward with the right hand and pull back with the left hand.  Now, you've got all the power from both hands and arms doing the racking.  
   
  There's a club up in Racine that does IDPA as well as one out west somewhere, maybe Elgin.
   
*I went out to look at some guns...and really liked it for her.*
   
  No offense but that's a huge mistake.  Let her go out and choose the gun.  If she has taken the time to pick something she likes, she'll like shooting more.  Just be careful letting her pick something that's too small as small handguns can be very hard to shoot.


----------



## intoflatlines

She is holding it correctly, it's just that her hands are too small to get a good grip and she is not very strong at all.

Good point regarding going shopping for her (salesman told me the same thing). I was more or less checking out what's out there so we can at least get started on the right track

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## intoflatlines

Just went to the gun shop with the gf, she liked the PX4 compact (and I did too) . Thoughts? 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## leftnose

Generally, you're always OK with anything Beretta makes.


----------



## liamstrain

Interesting. Packs a lot of gun into that tiny frame. I've never shot one though.


----------



## intoflatlines

Just went shooting and fondled some guns too (this time was looking for me).. CZ 75 SP-01 might be at the top of my list


----------



## leftnose

CZ another good gun but I personally prefer the SIG P-series if you want an alloy DA/SA gun.  Again, though, that's my preference.
   
  I'm not sure how much experience you have but if you're new to handguns, I might stick to that M&P for awhile and get used to the striker fire trigger.  The CZ will feel very different in both DA and SA.
   
  But, I get the desire for more toys!


----------



## liamstrain

Where around Chicago do you shoot? You're not in the city I take it? I sold all my guns before moving here in '99.


----------



## intoflatlines

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> CZ another good gun but I personally prefer the SIG P-series if you want an alloy DA/SA gun.  Again, though, that's my preference.
> 
> I'm not sure how much experience you have but if you're new to handguns, I might stick to that M&P for awhile and get used to the striker fire trigger.  The CZ will feel very different in both DA and SA.
> 
> But, I get the desire for more toys!


 
   
  Yep, I am new to handguns. I like my M&P 9mm very much (got only ~750 rounds through it), I just like to "collect" things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  If anything, I'd keep my M&P for target/IDPA stuff and get something else in .40S&W or .45ACP for home defense. Although I suppose for home defense a 12ga shotgun would be best..
   
  Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Where around Chicago do you shoot? You're not in the city I take it? I sold all my guns before moving here in '99.


 
   
  I did live in the city, but moved out to the suburbs after I kind of quit posting around here so I should probably update my profile.. But I go to Article II in Lombard the most, GAT occasionally, and Maxon infrequently. I went to a buddy's gun club in Lombard on Sunday and that was fun too.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Where around Chicago do you shoot? You're not in the city I take it? I sold all my guns before moving here in '99.


 
   
  I suppose you might also be directing this at me?  I live in the north suburbs.  Really, though I own more than a few, I dabble in handguns.  Shooting clay targets is my main interest.  I shoot here: http://northbrooksportsclub.org/
   
  Quote: 





intoflatlines said:


> Yep, I am new to handguns. I like my M&P 9mm very much (got only ~750 rounds through it), I just like to "collect" things
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I sort of believe in the thought that you should use for SD/HD the gun you practice with and that's much of the idea of IDPA as well.  Your M&P is a great HD gun and 9mm is very effective with proper SD ammo.  My nighstand gun is a 9mm SIG 226 SCT loaded with 20+1 124 grn +P Gold Dots.  I pity the person who might be on the receiving end of that.
   
  But!  If you just want an "excuse" to buy a new gun, go for it!


----------



## intoflatlines

How do I get started with IDPA in the Chicago area?


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





intoflatlines said:


> How do I get started with IDPA in the Chicago area?


 
  Check the IDPA's website for a club near you:
   
  http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=IL
   
  You're M&P kit will serve you well but you also need a _good_ belt and, as per IDPA's rules, some sort of cover garment as the gun must be concealed to start.
   
  For the belt, look at Wildnerness' instructor belt.  Get at least the 5 stich model if not the CSM version.  Stiffer is BETTER.  It's not even a joke how much a good belt can have a positive impact on your ability to carry a gun.  Any sort of baggy open front shirt will work well as a cover garment.
   
  When you get to your first match, be sure to tell the organizers that you are a beginner.  They will be more than happy to show you the ropes and be sure that you are doing everything correctly and safely.  If you're like me, you'll want to have some sort of an idea of what you are doing before you walk in the door.  If so, take a look at Panteo Productions: http:// http://www.panteaoproductions.com/  they have some good videos available and you can stream directly from their site.


----------



## intoflatlines

Spent some time tonight with the soldering iron..

 Before:

   


 After:

   



   



 I'm hoping it will help to increase the grip some, since the stock backstrap can get a little slippery with sweaty hands. It does look a little goofy, but it didn't cost anything and if I hate it I can just buy another backstrap for a few dollars.


----------



## Towert7

Gonna have a gun smith thread the barrel and put a muzzle brake on it. Someday when I move to a free state I'll get my suppressor.


----------



## Chris_Himself

If anybody wants a complete BCM upper, lemme know


----------



## intoflatlines

I picked up this stuff today:


----------



## leftnose

Jeez.  Where'd you find two lowers in stock?


----------



## intoflatlines

Ordered them from DSA last month. I would have had them before the new year but some mix ups with the FFL transfer happened, causing some delays. My buddy ordered one from Maxon in Des Plaines a few weeks back and he got his already, but that was quick because Maxon already had an order in for 75 or so, iirc. Now I just need to figure out how to build the rest. I'm thinking I'll make the first 22lr, and the second will be 5.56.


Sent via Tapatalk, probably with typos


----------



## nelamvr6

Here are some pics of my Ed Brown Molon Labe:


----------



## nelamvr6

Here's my Kimber Raptor:


----------



## Grevlin

Ha!
   
  I had no idea there was a firearm thread 'round here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'll toss up a couple pics:


----------



## liamstrain

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> Gonna have a gun smith thread the barrel and put a muzzle brake on it. Someday when I move to a free state I'll get my suppressor.


 
   
  Looks like a Remington 700 in a McMillan Stock? I don't recognize the optics...Springfield maybe? 
   
  What caliber? I used to shoot a similar rig in .308 for 300 and 600 meter competition. Had a custom barrel on it though, and most competitions were iron sites (had an anschutz peep site on the back). 
   
  edit: or I could just click through to the flickr page and get all my questions answered.  Do you shoot for fun, or since this is the tactical model - for work?


----------



## squallkiercosa

I was wondering, are you planning or (did you) buy new rifles in case a legal ban for sporting rifles is imposed?


----------



## intoflatlines

So I opened up a box of the Winchester 9mm NATO stuff and wow.. the brass was visibly very dirty, and some of the bullets/copper were dark brown and discolored. I've heard that Winchester stuff is dirty, but I always thought that it was in regards to the powder/residue after shooting, not the brass itself.. is the out of the ordinary or typical?

 Here's the stuff I normally shoot (Federal 115gr range/target):

   


 Here's the "new" stuff (Winchester 124gr NATO):


----------



## liamstrain

Is it just discolored, or is that actual grit on the brass? 
   
  If just discoloration - it shouldn't make any difference. They may be using a lower grade of brass for the NATO stuff than they do for domestic market retail (recycled vs. virgin brass). With that said, I've not shot much winchester ammo (with the exception of their .308 Supreme Silvertip, which is a different ball of wax). I usually liked Federal handgun ammunition.


----------



## intoflatlines

The stuff at the top of the brass on the right 2 rounds is actually caked on. The darkness on the other rounds is just discoloration. I'm new to shooting so maybe this is normal for "NATO" spec rounds? Either way, it was very surprising to me..
   
  Also I figured that perhaps they use recycled brass, but what about the darkness on the bullet? If it's just cosmetic that's fine by me, I just want to make sure that it's safe for my gun and will go boom when I pull the trigger..


----------



## leftnose

It's not recycled or reloaded brass.  It's just not polished.  Polishing brass adds cost.  Costs that, to a military, aren't acceptable.  Ammo intended for use by the military is never polished, whether it be Federal Lake City or Winchester or whatever.   What you have is ammo intended for the military and sold to the consumer market as ovverrun.  It gets to the point that you'll occasionally find a round of Lake City 5.56 that is dented.
   
  Consumer ammo, on the other hand, is polished.  If it weren't pretty much everyone would have had the same reaction as you.


----------



## ronnielee54

Just got off of Facebook.  Here in Arkansas, on Facebook, gun trading and selling groups have sprung up like crazy.  You would not believe the prices people are getting right now.  Steel cased 5.56 is going for over a dollar around.  P-Mags are up to $60.00.  Cheapa$$ ARs that were $700 last month are hitting $2000 and selling.  There is a guy trying to trade a 1999 4X4 Tahoe for an AR.  The craziet thing I have seen is Ruger BX-25 magazines elling for $100. Gad I did a lot of buying this year and don't need anything at the moment.  I bought a Loki LWFS machined billet Patrol rifle in March for less than a DPMS Sporter is selling for right now.  Crazy times


----------



## ronnielee54

Quote: 





intoflatlines said:


> So I opened up a box of the Winchester 9mm NATO stuff and wow.. the brass was visibly very dirty, and some of the bullets/copper were dark brown and discolored. I've heard that Winchester stuff is dirty, but I always thought that it was in regards to the powder/residue after shooting, not the brass itself.. is the out of the ordinary or typical?
> 
> Here's the stuff I normally shoot (Federal 115gr range/target):
> 
> ...


 
  Be careful what you shoot the Nato rounds out of.  They are comparable to the +P rounds.  You don't even want to shoot them out of a High Power.


----------



## intoflatlines

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> It's not recycled or reloaded brass.  It's just not polished.  Polishing brass adds cost.  Costs that, to a military, aren't acceptable.  Ammo intended for use by the military is never polished, whether it be Federal Lake City or Winchester or whatever.   What you have is ammo intended for the military and sold to the consumer market as ovverrun.  It gets to the point that you'll occasionally find a round of Lake City 5.56 that is dented.
> 
> Consumer ammo, on the other hand, is polished.  If it weren't pretty much everyone would have had the same reaction as you.


 
   
  Thanks for the info. It sure was surprising after coming from pretty/shiny/polished consumer ammo!
   
  Quote: 





ronnielee54 said:


> Be careful what you shoot the Nato rounds out of.  They are comparable to the +P rounds.  You don't even want to shoot them out of a High Power.


 
   
  My M&P can shoot +P so I think I'll be OK. From my limited knowledge and research, it seems like 9mm NATO falls between regular 9mm Luger and +P.


----------



## aqsw

I'm looking at an Apex tactical trigger for my M&P9. My son and I both have the range kits. When we go to the range, the loser has to buy lunch or supper.I have bought 6 times and him 3.
  Of course I won't tell him I installed it, but will this give me an edge?
   
  P.S. I bought him the kit, and he makes about 2X what I do.(so I feel I'm not really cheating)
   
  Cheers


----------



## intoflatlines

I'm looking to get some gear for low/no light situations for my HD pistol (will also be my carry pistol if/when IL ever comes up with a CCW permit):
   
  - Tritium night sights
  - Rail mounted laser
  - Rail mounted light
  - Rail mounted laser + light
   
  I'm 99% sure I'll go with night sights first, but what are your thoughts about lasers and lights for pistols? I was going to get just night sights and call it a day, but my GF (whom I "share" the pistol with) asked me to get a laser instead. I'm not really sold on the idea since I fear that it will cause her (or me) to become lazy. So I guess, what would you guys recommend? night sights + laser, night sights + light, night sights + laser/light, night sights only?


----------



## leftnose

Well, night sights won't do you any good if you can't see what you're aiming at.  A good light, however, can provide enough illumination that you can see your sights, tritium or not.
   
  There are also two schools of thought regarding lights on pistols.  One side is that a "hostile" will shoot at lights and you're always behind your weapon light.  The other side is that a weapon light allows better control of the weapon.  If you go with a good handheld light (you want something bright enough to be blinding), you'll need night sights.  If you go with a good weapon light, you might not need night sights.
   
  This is my nightstand gun:
   

   
   
  SIG 226 SCT, 9mm, TLR-1, SigLite rear, TruGlo TFO front, loaded 20+1 with 124grn +P Gold Dots.


----------



## jh4db536

Here is my AR pistol being made...














Still need to draw a logo for it in vector.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Towert7

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Looks like a Remington 700 in a McMillan Stock? I don't recognize the optics...Springfield maybe?
> 
> What caliber? I used to shoot a similar rig in .308 for 300 and 600 meter competition. Had a custom barrel on it though, and most competitions were iron sites (had an anschutz peep site on the back).
> 
> edit: or I could just click through to the flickr page and get all my questions answered.  Do you shoot for fun, or since this is the tactical model - for work?


 
   
   
  for fun. 
  Gonna get it threaded for a muzzle break / suppressor when I move.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





towert7 said:


> for fun.
> Gonna get it threaded for a muzzle break / suppressor when I move.


 
  As audio geeks we are sort of obligated to get supressors right?


----------



## Edwood

Quote: 





caffeinatedx42 said:


> As audio geeks we are sort of obligated to get supressors right?


 
   
  Would if I could.  I live in Kalifornia, so suppressors are a no no here.  Never understood the rationale behind laws against suppressors.  If anything, they should be required by law for the general public, as it makes hand guns a lot more difficult to conceal. 
   
  There's nothing like the taste of burnt powder when shooting dirty ammo with a can.  At least that was my last experience in Nevada.
   
  Closest alternative is to use electronic ear muffs.  I have a pair of Howard Leight Impact Pro electronic ear muffs.  Otherwise, I actually use an old pair of Custom IEM's as ear plugs and double up with the Ear Muffs on top when in an indoor range.  But even with the Howard Leight Impact Pro's cranked all the way up, it's still pretty difficult to hear anything.  Plus the audio is completely unbalanced, and I tried multiple pairs of them, after the third one, I gave up and just chalked it up to their design.  Which kind of sucks, but they're a lot cheaper than MSA Sordin's.  Although I might eventually get a pair of those someday.


----------



## Grevlin

New member of the family:
   

   

   

   
   
  Stoeger Condor O/U 12ga.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





grevlin said:


> New member of the family:
> Stoeger Condor O/U 12ga.


 
   
  Nice!  Whenever I meet some who says the price of entry for clay shooting sports is too high I point them to Stoeger or a CZ Canvasback.  Great guns.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





edwood said:


> Would if I could.  I live in Kalifornia, so suppressors are a no no here.  Never understood the rationale behind laws against suppressors.  If anything, they should be required by law for the general public, as it makes hand guns a lot more difficult to conceal.


 
   
   
  I agree, it's so strange that they are restricted in any way.  They make the firearm much safer, which California claims is their goal, while also making it heavier and bigger.
   
  That's what happens when the lawmakers primary source of information is movie and television on any subject.  They think it changes it from a hearing damaging "bang" to a quiet "poof"; whereas the reality it changes it from a hearing damaging "bang" to a loud but not hearing damaging "bang".  Nobody would ever mistake the sound of my AR with the suppressor on it as anything other than a gun being fired.
   
  In famously gun hating France they are available over the counter with no paperwork.  While getting a gun is a huge hassle, supressors are just considered safety devices similar to ear plugs.


----------



## leftnose

Not a great picture but ever wanted to see an O/U shotgun with an integral supressor:
   
   

   
  Guy was Italian.  Apparently not a completely unknown item there because of noise issues and population density.


----------



## hodgjy

^ Sporting clays?


----------



## leftnose

Yes, last year's World FITASC.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





caffeinatedx42 said:


> I agree, it's so strange that they are restricted in any way.  They make the firearm much safer, which California claims is their goal, while also making it heavier and bigger.
> 
> That's what happens when the lawmakers primary source of information is movie and television on any subject.  They think it changes it from a hearing damaging "bang" to a quiet "poof"; whereas the reality it changes it from a hearing damaging "bang" to a loud but not hearing damaging "bang".  Nobody would ever mistake the sound of my AR with the suppressor on it as anything other than a gun being fired.
> 
> In famously gun hating France they are available over the counter with no paperwork.  While getting a gun is a huge hassle, supressors are just considered safety devices similar to ear plugs.


 

 Probably from the same people who decided that any gun with a thumbhole in the stock is an "assault rifle" and needs additional restrictions. Nevermind that that's pretty much exclusively a competition rifle feature.


----------



## grawk

one that was in response to the pistol grip ban, at that.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

To bring it back 'round to "gun-fi" instead of "gun politics" (which was my fault).
   
  Here are some from my collection:
   

   
   
  Long Guns (from top):
  Ruger 10/22
  Remington 870
  Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22
  Smith & Wesson M&P 15-VTAC
   
  Pistols (from top):
  Ruger 22/45
  Springfield 1911 TRP SS
  Springfield XD45
  Ruger LCP


----------



## Tsujigiri

Springfield does make some beautiful 1911's with those skeletonized triggers and hammers, mag wells, etc. They look like they cost quite a bit more than they do.


----------



## leftnose

You want gun collection pictures?  I got gun collection pictures:
   

  Sig 226 SCT 9mm, Streamlight TLR-1
   

  S&W 686+,. S&W 617 10-shot
   

  Springfield Loaded Target 9mm, Kimber Custom Target II .45
   

  S&W M&P9 FS, S&W M&P9 Pro 5"
   

   


  Krieghoff K-80 Parcours Highland Game Scene I
   


  Krieghoff K-80 Plantation Scroll
   

  Perazzi MX-2000
   
  And these are just the photos I've handy at the moment.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> You want gun collection pictures?  I got gun collection pictures:
> 
> 
> Sig 226 SCT 9mm, Streamlight TLR-1
> ...


 
   
  Nice nice!
   
  Do you compete with either of the Krieghoff's or stick with the Perazzi?
   
  I've tried to "talk" myself into getting a revolver forever just to round out my collection.  However I've never enjoyed shooting revolvers; the grips universally annoy me and even in single action mode I'm a terrible shot with them.
   
   
  Oh and for others who might not know.  The difference between my partial collection photo and the set leftnose posted would similar to me posting a picture of a Mazda Miata and him saying "Nice Miata, here's a picture of my three Ferrari's" (but in a non-jerky way).


----------



## leftnose

Yeah, I shot that Perazzi for 10 years as my main competition gun (I still have it).  Then switched to the Plantation Scroll K-80 and shot that for 3 years and I just got the Highland Game Scene K-80 about three weeks ago.  I haven't shoot a tournament with it yet but I plan to do so.
   
  That's only a small portion of my gun collection.  I don't have the rest hosted online anywhere.
   
  Yes, I have a problem.


----------



## hodgjy

The Krieghoff is a true piece of art.


----------



## buttons252

I really like firearms in general, but i cant afford to shoot them.  a box of .45 is $22 and it only takes about 7 minutes to burn through that.  I switched to a hoyt compound bow.  I can shoot all day, and still have my arrows afterwards     plus its exercise to keep my arms ripped, haha


----------



## Tsujigiri

With the recent ammo run, it might be better to delay target practice until the manufacturers can keep up with demand. The backorders and markups you're seeing now for ammunition are insane.


----------



## liamstrain

Or time to learn to reload (or get a .22LR conversion barrel for casual plinking and fun)


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Or time to learn to reload (or get a .22LR conversion barrel for casual plinking and fun)


 
   
  Even "cheap" .22lr is tough to find these days.  I have four .22lr's including an AR and 1911 "style" models but have been scared to use what little ammo I have.
   
  Reloading is definitely the way to go in times like these.  It's too bad reloading bores me to death.  A friend of mine has a super high end reloading rig setup which makes it very "easy" and quick but still I find my mind wandering immediately; I'd hate to blow up one of my guns just because I stopped paying attention while making ammo.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





buttons252 said:


> I really like firearms in general, but i cant afford to shoot them.  a box of .45 is $22 and it only takes about 7 minutes to burn through that.  I switched to a hoyt compound bow.  I can shoot all day, and still have my arrows afterwards     plus its exercise to keep my arms ripped, haha


 
   
  Buy a cheap over/under 12g shotgun and start busting clays!  12g birdshot has been easy to find consistently, has not gone up in price more than a buck or two, and Sporting Clays is the best competitive sport in the world (after sailing).
   
  I can't think of a better way to spend a warm spring day than busting clays with friends.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Or time to learn to reload (or get a .22LR conversion barrel for casual plinking and fun)


 

 Great option, assuming your local shooting range doesn't frown upon "range chickens."


----------



## grawk

I wouldn't ever go back to a range that frowned on people shooting .22.  And I say that as someone who doesn't own a .22.


----------



## Tsujigiri

I've heard the term "range chickens" to refer to the people who walk around picking up casings to reload, like chickens walk around picking up feed, not people who shoot .22's. I haven't heard of range's that will be that upset at you for collecting casings, but you might invite a fair amount of ridicule.


----------



## Grevlin

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> I've heard the term "range chickens" to refer to the people who walk around picking up casings to reload, like chickens walk around picking up feed, not people who shoot .22's. I haven't heard of range's that will be that upset at you for collecting casings, but you might invite a fair amount of ridicule.


 

 There is a regular guy who does that at one of the outdoor ranges I frequent. I actually got mad and told him to keep a distance. He was walking right up behind me and grabbing the brass as I was shooting...uneasy is putting it mildly.


----------



## Grevlin

Quote: 





caffeinatedx42 said:


> Buy a cheap over/under 12g shotgun and start busting clays!  12g birdshot has been easy to find consistently, has not gone up in price more than a buck or two, and Sporting Clays is the best competitive sport in the world (after sailing).
> 
> I can't think of a better way to spend a warm spring day than busting clays with friends.


 
   
  I did this exact thing just recently. Posted pics here a page or two back.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





grevlin said:


> There is a regular guy who does that at one of the outdoor ranges I frequent. I actually got mad and told him to keep a distance. He was walking right up behind me and grabbing the brass as I was shooting...uneasy is putting it mildly.


 

 That's a pretty extreme case, I wouldn't expect people to go into other lanes to collect brass. I'd be pretty annoyed, too...


----------



## liamstrain

I've actually been enjoying using a .22 cal high powered air rifle recently. Accurate, cheap as dirt to shoot. It makes a good lost in the woods rifle (though a little heavy). 300 shots fit in an altoids tin, and if you can aim, it will easily take down anything smaller than a fox for eating.


----------



## grawk

Ah, ok.  Yes, every range I've been to is ok with collecting your own brass, and generally not ok with you collecting others' brass.  Within reason, of course.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> I've heard the term "range chickens" to refer to the people who walk around picking up casings to reload, like chickens walk around picking up feed, not people who shoot .22's. I haven't heard of range's that will be that upset at you for collecting casings, but you might invite a fair amount of ridicule.


 
   
   
  My buddy's and I call them "brass crabs" because the scuttle around sideways hunched over.  I've always appreciated them at my outdoor club as it means I don't have to ever pick up my own brass; plus I'm technically "recycling".
   
  I have had a particularly annoying regular at my indoor club invade my personal space (with a rake) to collect my brass while I was shooting.  He got kicked out of the club eventually after doing it to several people.  He didn't seem to understand why startling a person actively shooting a gun might be a bad idea, nor why people might be mad that he was taking their brass.


----------



## ronnielee54

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> With the recent ammo run, it might be better to delay target practice until the manufacturers can keep up with demand. The backorders and markups you're seeing now for ammunition are insane.


 
   I have been really lucky through all of this.  In the last month or two I have been able to purchase about 4k rounds of .22LR at normal prices.  Already had about that much on hand so with a little ove 8k rounds, I am good to go.


----------



## Grevlin

Found a bunch of boxes of the new 12ga PDX1 Defender segmented slugs at Walmart - people must not have known what they were.
   
  Seen here:
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZHCyif8PJg
  
   
  Super nasty and all the kinetic energy in just 12" of penetration - bad guys insides would be - mushy.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





grevlin said:


> New member of the family:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Nice!  I hope you get to bust lots of clays with it.
   
  This past Sunday a guy that was assigned to my squad shot the pants off all the rest of us with his Stoeger for the first five stations.  We didn't take him seriously, as he was new to the club, so when he went first and broke all six clays it threw all of us off our game.  A very capable gun.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

In an effort to keep this thread going:
   
  Who out there has a concealed carry license?  For those that do, which do you carry more often:  a gun or a portable headphone amp?


----------



## Grevlin

Quote: 





caffeinatedx42 said:


> In an effort to keep this thread going:
> 
> Who out there has a concealed carry license?  For those that do, which do you carry more often:  a gun or a portable headphone amp?


 
   
  lol
   
  I have a ccw - and I carry a Kimber Pro Carry II 1911 every single day.
   
   
  Portable headphone amp - not so much.


----------



## wareagle69

I never carry a portable headphone amp.
   
  I do carry either a Sig Arms GSR 1911 Commander or a Springfield XDm everyday.


----------



## Exediron

Hey everyone - thought I'd stop by for some advice. I'm probably going to be buying a firearm some time in the near(ish) future, and since I have basically no experience I hope to draw on the Head-Fi knowledge base here.
   
*Context:* I'll be going to the upper peninsula in June for about two weeks, during which time I'll be working on a photography project that I expect to take me into the woods and along rivers well into the night. Since the UP is home to a very sizable number of bears and wolves and mountain lions, I think I'd feel safer with something that I can use to put holes in things quickly if I need to. A friend of mine who spends time up north a lot told me that the wolves are getting pretty aggressive the last few years - might be true, might not. Either way, I don't hope to need a weapon, but it's better to have one and not need it than the other way around, that's for sure.
   
  I've pretty much settled on a shotgun as my best bet; I don't have a CCW license nor do I intend to get one, so it's going to be a long-arm - I doubt a handgun has the power to do a reliable takedown on a bear anyway, should I need to. In Michigan you don't need a license to purchase a long-arm, so that much should be easy. I favor shotgun over rifle because you can't beat the punch of a slug, and I would only be using it at close quarters anyway.
   
  The points I'd like advice on are mainly the following:
   
*Semi-Auto or Pump?* If a semi-auto is within a reasonable margin of the reliability of a pump I'd much prefer one - less to worry about in the heat of the moment and you can keep a clean sight picture if faced with multiple targets or if you need a follow-up shot.
*Ammunition:* I'd be leaning towards a 12 gauge and slugs. Are rifled slugs enough more accurate at close range to bother with a weapon that fires them?
*Sights:* Iron sights, or are the laser dots better if you might be using it in dark conditions? Flashlight attachment?
   
  So far I've done a bit of looking around and I like the look of this Mossberg; it's small enough to fit in my dual-compartment tripod case (40" maximum), has a pistol grip and stock (that's what I know how to control), M16-style sights (which I know how to use) and holds a decent load. Any thoughts? I'm also open to other suggestions, provided it doesn't go too far over $1000 - I'm not looking to spend too much here, but I do want something sturdy and reliable. No point skimping on self-defense expenses, but I don't think I need a top-line Benelli either.
   
  Thanks for any suggestions, all. My main relevant experience is with crossbows and a bit with an AR-15, so I'm pretty much going blind here.


----------



## leftnose

How 'bout some night sights.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





exediron said:


> ...bears and wolves and mountain lions, I think I'd feel safer with something that I can use to put holes in things quickly if I need to...
> 
> *...Semi-Auto or Pump?* If a semi-auto is within a reasonable margin of the reliability of a pump I'd much prefer one - less to worry about in the heat of the moment and you can keep a clean sight picture if faced with multiple targets or if you need a follow-up shot.
> *Ammunition:* I'd be leaning towards a 12 gauge and slugs. Are rifled slugs enough more accurate at close range to bother with a weapon that fires them?
> *Sights:* Iron sights, or are the laser dots better if you might be using it in dark conditions? Flashlight attachment?


 
   
  I'm curious to see how many various opinions you get on this.  
   
  My 2 cents:
*Pump vs semi-auto*; Go pump unless you plan on shooting several hundred practice rounds through your semi-auto and will fee 100% confident it will be reliable.  For self defense I'd rather have a gun that is definitely going to shoot rather than one which probably will and with any-semi automatic firearm to be 100% confident in it requires hundreds (if not thousands) of rounds.  I'd also go with a smooth bore barrel and a cylinder choke.  The specific one I'd suggest is a Walmart special Remington 870 12g; should cost only about $300 and will be extremely versatile (hunting & self defense).  If you want a shorter barrel you can buy one separately for cheap (on most pump shotguns switching out the barrel requires no tools and takes less than two minutes).  Next to my bed is a 12g Remington 870 express smooth bore 18" cylinder choke pump with extended magazine and a bead sight filled with 00 buck.
   
*Ammunition* - I agree with 12 gauge.  I wouldn't go slugs though.  00 buck should be more than enough for cats and wolves.  It can definitely kill a bear too at close range; though admittedly not ideal.  It's a trade off; if you were to hit any of these animals with a well placed slug shot it will immediately take them down but slugs are infinitely harder to aim as there is zero spread so even at close range it's much more likely you will miss or at least not hit exactly where you want.  With buckshot the spread isn't dramatic at close range but is still exponentially wider than a slug; so the likelihood of you hitting & hitting somewhere you want is much higher.  A glancing shot with a slug that grazes the shoulder of a wolf would tear a big chunk out with buckshot.  The slug also has the negative of far more recoil, which will destroy your sight picture.  If you want to be fancy you could have buck shot & a slug both loaded with the buck shot first.
   
  One comment about slugs;  you mention rifled slugs, be aware those are meant to be used in smooth bore barrels.  You'd definitely be better off getting a smooth bore, IMO, and 90% of all the shotguns you'll see in a gun store will be smooth bores.
   
*Sights* - For the purpose you're describing I'd just go with a standard bead at the end of the barrel.  You'd be shooting these animals at very close range and have no need for anything more complicated which would require lots of practice.  Any skeet or sporting clay shooter will tell you a bead sight can be remarkably accurate.  In a "kill or be killed" situation you'll mostly be operating on instinct and a bead (IMO) "fits" instinct better with minimal training.
   
*Flashlight* - that's up to you. It's another thing to worry about/fiddle with in the heat of the moment but definitely useful at night of course.  It will, though, destroy your night vision narrowing your ability to see anything to just what the beam falls on; of course the first time you fire will also screw your night vision too.


----------



## leftnose

Quote: 





caffeinatedx42 said:


> Any skeet or sporting clay shooter will tell you a bead sight can be remarkably accurate.  In a "kill or be killed" situation you'll mostly be operating on instinct and a bead (IMO) "fits" instinct better with minimal training.


 
   
  Any skeet or sporting clay shooter worth his salt will tell you that anyone who's looking at the bead while attempting to hit a moving target will only miss the target.  There's no "accuracy" when shooting a target load of 7.5s with a 30" pattern.
   
  When you need accuracy for slugs or buckshot, go with rifle sights or something like a ghost ring.


----------



## Exediron

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *CaffeinatedX42* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the reply. I'd actually thought about trying a buck shot load or two first and then slugs in case the first few didn't do the trick, but I wasn't sure how feasible that was. I might do that then.
   
  As for semi-automatic reliability, do you think the manufacture quality of the shotgun can mitigate the need for extensive break-in, or is that just a fact of life with an autoloader? Would something only fairly mildly outside my intended budget such as an FN be trustworthy with a smaller amount of test fires?


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





exediron said:


> .....
> 
> As for semi-automatic reliability, do you think the manufacture quality of the shotgun can mitigate the need for extensive break-in, or is that just a fact of life with an autoloader? Would something only fairly mildly outside my intended budget such as an FN be trustworthy with a smaller amount of test fires?


 
   
  Sorry, I'll have to leave that question for someone else.  I don't own an autoloader.  They are extremely popular among many hunters so I'm sure there are others who can answer.


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





leftnose said:


> Any skeet or sporting clay shooter worth his salt will tell you that anyone who's looking at the bead while attempting to hit a moving target will only miss the target.  There's no "accuracy" when shooting a target load of 7.5s with a 30" pattern.
> 
> When you need accuracy for slugs or buckshot, go with rifle sights or something like a ghost ring.


 
   
  I have to disagree.
   
  As a sporting clay shooter worth my salt I can tell you that everyone looks at the bead; that's why it's there.  If you are suggesting you don't look at the bead try shooting a match without it.  Yes, you don't aim with it like a standard rifle or pistol sight and yes you shouldn't be purposely staring at it but the bead definitely factors into the things everyone needs to see when busting a clay.
   
  In regards to "accuracy", it is definitely a factor even when shooting 7.5+ with a wide spread.  Hence pattern boards.  If accuracy wasn't a factor everyone would hit 100% and clay shooting sports wouldn't exist.


----------



## leftnose

Gotta completely disagree even more with what you're saying.
   
  But first, as a show of good faith, here's a little trinket the NSCA sent me for my "accomplishments" in Sporting Clays:
   

   
  I've shot a lot of sporting clays for a lot of years all over the US and in foreign countries.
   
  I'd be very careful using a pronoun like "everyone" when talking about equipment and techniques.  And I'd also be careful suggesting to people over the internet what they might try while having no idea of their level of experience.  I'll tell you a few stories.
   
  I go to Argentina for dove hunting pretty much every year (I'm skipping this year as I'm not comfortable with the socio-economic situation there right now).  Well, a few years ago, I noticed at the end of the second day that the bead was missing.  I have no idea when that happened and I had shot somewhere around 1300 (yes, 1300) shells that day.  If I look at the bead, surely, I would have noticed that it had gone missing at some point during the day?  I then shot three more days without beads and my hit % didn't suffer at all.  I never bothered replacing the front bead on that gun; it's still missing today.  I've also gone on two more trips with that gun to Argentina.  So 2.5 trips (5 days each) plus shooting the gun here, I bet there are 15,000 shells through that gun with no beads and I don't notice it.
   
  Last year, I went to the US Open at Caribou.  I shot 600 targets in 5 days.  I got home, was cleaning my gun and again, noticed that the front bead was missing.  Again, no idea when it was lost.  It could have been on the first day for all I know.  And I won punches during the shoot, too, so my score certainly didn't suffer.  Again, if I spent any time at all looking at the bead, surely, I would have noticed that it was gone before I got home?  This bead has been replaced as it's a nice gun and it looks a bid stupid with a hole in the rib where the bead should be (more on this later).
   
  Also last year, I bought a new Browning pump gun to have some fun with.  A friend asked me what kind of bead it had (he was worried that it had Browning's typical POS glo-worm).  I had no idea.  I had to pull the gun out and look at it to tell him what kind of bead it had.  And, finally, again, if I must be looking at the bead while shooting, surely, I would know what kind of bead was on the gun?
   
  Now, let's take a look at some truly top flight shooters (which I certainly am not).  Dan Carlisle, a perennial All-American, Olympic medalist, and NSCA hall of famer shoots without beads.  He's also one of the most highly regarded instructors in the country and he suggests to all his students that they remove the beads from their gun.  At the very least, he takes a sharpie to them and blacks them out to make them less visible.  Richard Faulds, who just won the World English Sporting championship a couple weeks ago, is a multiple World FITASC winner plus Olympic gold medalist, shoots without beads  John Woolley, also one of the top instructors in the country and one of the best veteran shooters in the world, shoots without a bead.  If you walk around any big sporting clays shoot and look at guns, you'll see a very high number with the beads removed.  Surely if everyone looks at the bead and it factors into the things that everyone must see, there would be no way to shoot at such a high level as to win World Championships, Olympic Medals, or whatever prizes the NSCA might offer. 
   
  I'm lucky enough that I've been able to order a few high-end custom guns (there'a  picture of at least one of them in this thread and you can see my avatar).  I always order them without a mid bead and what the company normally uses as a mid bead installed at the muzzle.  The only reason I have any bead installed is to have a "tooth" for leaning the gun up against stuff.  Otherwise, I would go beadless.  The bead isn't there to be looked at.  It's there because it's an anachronism from a former time when shooting wasn't quite as evolved as it is now.  I don't mean to be disparaging but I spend a lot of time shooting sporting clays with a lot of very good shooters and I don't know a single one of them who will tell you to look at the bead or that it plays any importance in shooting.  If you look at the bead while shooting, you will miss the bird.  End of story.  If you go to any serious clay shooting forum, you'll hear this same theme repeated over and over again as well.
   
  And, as for your statement "if accuracy wasn't a factor everyone would hit 100% and clay shooting sports wouldn't exist,"  it's the shooter that breaks the target, not the gun.  Shooting competitions are a test of human skill, not equipment.  The inherent "accuracy" of a shotgun plays no role in whether or not the target breaks.  The shooter has to point it in the right place.  And the best way to do this is to have a minimal amount of distractions, including things like big, giant, glo-worm beads.


----------



## leftnose

My latest, a 20ga CSMC Inverness with 30" barrels.  These aren't my pics or my gun but mine is more or less the same but with different wood.


----------



## CrazyRay

Beautiful!


----------



## Philimon




----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

*Sharing some of my 1st passion.... *
  
 Les Baer Ultimate Master 1.5

  
 Jim Hoag 6inch

  
 Sig 510 AMT


----------



## Chris_Himself

Right now:
  
 Knights Armament SR-15E3 16" URXII on a Rock River milled lower. I will say that while Knights is nice, a well built rifle with a mil-spec bolt carrier group and barrel could stack up to it.
  
 I got some Hornady hollowpoints for home defense, and I regularly shoot green penetrator tip.
  
 I have a history of match shooting but I'm getting fat dudes.. gotta get fit before I get back into it. The high round count is a nice way to get broke though :/


----------



## dailysmoker

nelamvr6 said:


> Here are some pics of my Ed Brown Molon Labe:


 

 Now this is a nice gun damn...what a piece just how i like them great taste dude!!


----------



## nelamvr6

dailysmoker said:


> Now this is a nice gun damn...what a piece just how i like them great taste dude!!


 
 Thanks!


----------



## Quartz67

What an awesome collection...  How many rounds does that SIG hold?
  
  
 Quote:


m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> *Sharing some of my 1st passion.... *
> 
> Les Baer Ultimate Master 1.5
> 
> ...


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Thanks!
  
 That one is a 20 rounder (which I have mostly). There are also 5 (got 1) and 10 rounders but are hard to find.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Alright, I'm going to officially join gun-fi soon. I've been shooting for a while, but I just use my dad's guns and don't have any of my own yet. Tonight I placed my first order for gun parts that I will use to make my first gun. I'll wait for the Black Friday sales for the other parts, but Midway had a sale just now for first time customers so I jumped on it. Anyway, I'm planning to do an AR-15 build and go balls to the walls with the components. I've learned from all my other hobbies to buy quality and cry once. I'll be sure to post pics when I'm done, but it looks like it might take a few months to build it due to many receivers and barrels being out of stock at the moment.


----------



## goldenTym3

I am only 20 at the moment and live in Minnesota.. When I turn 21 I plan to get my carry permit (in Minnesota it is not required that you conceal the weapon, although I will anyway for a multitude of reasons) But my mom said it was a great idea and when she kept pestering me about my christmas list I told her maybe Ill put a gun on it.
  
 She said "You wouldnt even know what kind of gun you would want" ... "Smith and Wesson SD9VE"... From all of my research it is a great gun for the money (sub 400 dollars) I figured the 9mm would be a better option than the .40 cal.. Less recoil for a beginner as well as the ammo is more affordable.. no reason buying a gun you cant afford to shoot.. Plus great mag accuracy, 16+1 standard. (minnesota as far as I know doesnt have law restricting mag size) 
  
 And while it is not the most attractive gun (nothing compares to a nice 1911) it is certainly not the ugliest


----------



## Old Pa

goldentym3 said:


> I am only 20 at the moment and live in Minnesota.. When I turn 21 I plan to get my carry permit (in Minnesota it is not required that you conceal the weapon, although I will anyway for a multitude of reasons) But my mom said it was a great idea and when she kept pestering me about my christmas list I told her maybe Ill put a gun on it.
> 
> She said "You wouldnt even know what kind of gun you would want" ... "Smith and Wesson SD9VE"... From all of my research it is a great gun for the money (sub 400 dollars) I figured the 9mm would be a better option than the .40 cal.. Less recoil for a beginner as well as the ammo is more affordable.. no reason buying a gun you cant afford to shoot.. Plus great mag accuracy, 16+1 standard. (minnesota as far as I know doesnt have law restricting mag size)
> 
> And while it is not the most attractive gun (nothing compares to a nice 1911) it is certainly not the ugliest


 
  
Go .40 Short&Weak; you can handle it and it's a more effective round.


----------



## Old Pa

exediron said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'd actually thought about trying a buck shot load or two first and then slugs in case the first few didn't do the trick, but I wasn't sure how feasible that was. I might do that then.
> 
> As for semi-automatic reliability, do you think the manufacture quality of the shotgun can mitigate the need for extensive break-in, or is that just a fact of life with an autoloader? Would something only fairly mildly outside my intended budget such as an FN be trustworthy with a smaller amount of test fires?


 
  
I've been running a number of  Benelli M-1s in both 12ga and 20ga for the last decade and they have worked flawlessly since new.  BTW, any semi-auto's function is dependent on the quality and reliability of its ammunition.  With a 12ga you have lots of ammunition options.  And there should also be grouse in the UP.


----------



## revolutionz

Very cool thread, there are some nice firearms out there.  I won't have any pictures until I return home from my deployment, but I have a ccw and the following:
  
 Walther PK380
 Sig P250 compact 9mm
 Sig P250 compact .40 S&W
 Sig M400 w/ Nikon M-223 2-8x scope
 Remington 700 .243
 Remington 11-87 12ga
  
 Have also owned, but sold:
 Bersa Thunder .380
 Glock G23 Gen 3
  
  
 Mostly daily carry my PK380, with an Microtech Ultratech OTF auto knife.


----------



## Old Pa

revolutionz said:


> Walther PK380


 
  
Is that like a PPK?


----------



## revolutionz

No, its a bit different than the PPK.  It is a single-stack .380acp.  Fairly slim and light, great for ccw.  It what I carry most days.  .380 gets a bad rap for ccw, but in most situations, I believe it would suffice with some well placed shots.  Of course, I hope to never have to find out...


----------



## Old Pa

Walther introduced the PP and the PPK (Pocket Pistol and Pocket Pistol Kurz/Short) in the early 1930s in .22LR and .32ACP; .380ACP, or 9mm Kurz, came later.  Both pistols were single stack double-action with tool-less breakdown.  I have owned Walthers in .380ACP, but, IMHO, that caliber is insufficient for self defense and cannot drive an expanding bullet fast enough to be reliable.  I presently own a Daewoo PP clone in .22LR, which is a very nice gun.  No CCW pistol should be considered reliable unless the operator can reliably place shots.  This is accomplished through regular practice under pressure.


----------



## Sxooter

All I own is a H&R Remington 870 clone tactical pump action (Remington and H&R are owned by the same parent company, and if you order parts for it they come from the Remington factory). For home defense. 00-buck. My roommate's ex is a bit (a lot) crazy. It sure is a fun thing to take to the range. Reminds me I need to buy a batch of target practice rounds for it and go shooting when my son gets back in town. Cheap and reliable. It's kind of the Bravo V1 Tube amp of shot guns.


----------



## Old Pa

sxooter said:


> All I own is a H&R Remington 870 clone tactical pump action (Remington and H&R are owned by the same parent company, and if you order parts for it they come from the Remington factory). For home defense. 00-buck. My roommate's ex is a bit (a lot) crazy. It sure is a fun thing to take to the range. Reminds me I need to buy a batch of target practice rounds for it and go shooting when my son gets back in town. Cheap and reliable. It's kind of the Bravo V1 Tube amp of shot guns.


 
  
Think about #1 buckshot; higher pellet count, not quite so overpenetrative as 00 and it patterns better at "conversational" ranges.


----------



## Sxooter

old pa said:


> Think about #1 buckshot; higher pellet count, not quite so overpenetrative as 00 and it patterns better at "conversational" ranges.


 
 Yeah all they had was 0 and 00 at the store at the time. And slug, but I'm not using slugs for self-defense. Everything else was birdshot. Birdshot in big giant boxes, so going to the range is pretty affordable and doable.
  
 The guys I work with almost all collect, and my two favorite fun to shoot rifles are polar opposites. A mosin nagant and a PS-90. You can shoot the mosin nagant all afternoon for the cost of one magazine in the ps-90. But the PS-90 is so much fun to plink with.


----------



## Old Pa

sxooter said:


> Yeah all they had was 0 and 00 at the store at the time. And slug, but I'm not using slugs for self-defense. Everything else was birdshot. Birdshot in big giant boxes, so going to the range is pretty affordable and doable.
> 
> The guys I work with almost all collect, and my two favorite fun to shoot rifles are polar opposites. A mosin nagant and a PS-90. You can shoot the mosin nagant all afternoon for the cost of one magazine in the ps-90. But the PS-90 is so much fun to plink with.


 
  
I've always had to look around for 12ga  2 3/4"  #1 buck, but then I stocked up and bought a case about fifteen years ago.  Birdshot ( say #4s) works just fine at ranges where you would be talking without raising your voice.  Just the sound of the cycling of a pump shotgun's action has a calmative effect on most.  The issue with the defensive use of a shotgun is following the Four Rules and not letting your firearm be turned into your suppository.


----------



## WhiteCrow

revolutionz said:


> Very cool thread, there are some nice firearms out there.  I won't have any pictures until I return home from my deployment, but I have a ccw and the following:
> 
> Walther PK380
> Sig P250 compact 9mm
> ...


 

 sig bro!


----------



## ryant

First up is my very much loved daily companion the Springfield XD-9 Subcompact.
 It has a little work done to it with Tritium/Fiber Optic sights, Springer striker retainer pin, and a Springer striker indicator. I never thought much about XD's until I held this little beauty. I know it's "just" a plastic gun but the trigger feels great to me and the balance is fantastic for a sub compact.
  
  
  
 Next up is my Ruger p90. It's certainly not a popular gun by any stretch and most consider it ugly but I honestly find that it is a great gun. It's a MASSIVE pistol, make no mistake but I think this ruger can take a major beating and keep on ticking. It has upgraded grips and I replaced most the springs over the last summer. It shoots well and accurate. Quite a blast to run steel plates with this guy .


----------



## ArmAndHammer

Finally got it finished...well...almost. Just need to install the gas block and then it's 100%. Just waiting for it to arrive in the mail.


----------



## erikfreedom

i had only one gun. it was a beretta 686 silver onyx over & under shotgun with 28 inches barrel. i recently sold it.  i am currently waiting for my new benelli super black eagle semi auto. left handed with 24 inches barrel.  the o&u was a great gun, but it kicked like a mule with 3 inches mag shells.


----------



## jfindon

Gen 4 Glock 23:
  

  
  
 Built my first AR-15 a few months ago after knowing nothing about them:


----------



## VXAce

jfindon said:


> Gen 4 Glock 23:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Loving the AR15.


----------



## Willieboy

archosman said:


> Here's a few of mine...
> 
> 
> Old Smith&Wesson .38 Special... not mine
> ...


 
 Absolutely beautiful pictures of a great collection.


----------



## MT45

Love this thread! Headed to the range this morning in fact. I'll post at least one . . . The 1911 is my favorite and this is a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9MM. I've got plenty in .45ACP so this was a must have. Locks up tight, crazy accurate. I've spent many hours competing in IPSC but don't have the time anymore ...enjoy!


----------



## basman

Old but serves me well and becoming rare.


----------



## Brimstone

Beretta Onyx Pro Trap


----------



## WhiteCrow

brimstone said:


> Beretta Onyx Pro Trap


 
 MMM, I remember my cousin used to shoot trap with one of these bad boys. Great gun.


----------



## basman

New grips!


----------



## jh4db536

Seen quite a bit of gunpr0n in this thread...so here's some money sh0ts 
 How bout through the glass of a 10x42 on an off the shelf 700P. Sending 125gr pills at 3000+fps

 On the other side are some raggedy .30Caliber holes.


----------



## Philimon




----------



## liamstrain

New 10-meter competition air rifle for me... er... my son when he's older. Avanti 753. Once I tune the trigger and do a little tweaking, these things punch way above their price point.


----------



## dendrite

Own one of these puppies :

 Sig M400 Enhanced. Scary accurate. Took someone who never fired a gun and they were hitting bulls-eye from 50 yards out.
 Fun little rifle.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Dan Wesson Valor on my hip


----------



## liamstrain

jh4db536 said:


> On the other side are some raggedy .30Caliber holes.


 
  
 Nice! What range? All from the bench?
  
 After sighting in the 753, I did a few 10M tests. Man am I out of practice. My first Prone target wasn't terrible for having not shot in 15+ years, but I won't share the standing or sitting position targets yet. I think once I get the stock adjusted, and practice some more I'll be able to bring this tighter. Going to be a long while until I'm competitive again though... that'll have to be closer to .35" for ten shots for even local competition.


----------



## jh4db536

Those were 100 yds from the bench. Gun can do consistent 0.5" groups which is not bad for something off the shelf. Regular stock barrel, unmodified bolt, original unmolested action. Just changed trigger cause of the Remington shenanigans.


----------



## ArmAndHammer

Anyone know of a forum(s) worth checking out relating to shooting? In particular rifle and long range shooting. I just got my first fairly nice rifle that has some medium range capabilities and I'd like to explore the world of shooting long range. I've never really shot much rifle other than hunting rifles and nothing more than 75-100 yards.
  
 Here's what I grabbed the other day (Ruger M77 MKII Varmit Target in .223)...not a super high-end rig but should be good for taking coyotes and groundhogs and punching paper a few hundred yards away...


----------



## Brimstone

armandhammer said:


> Anyone know of a forum(s) worth checking out relating to shooting? In particular rifle and long range shooting. I just got my first fairly nice rifle that has some medium range capabilities and I'd like to explore the world of shooting long range. I've never really shot much rifle other than hunting rifles and nothing more than 75-100 yards.
> 
> Here's what I grabbed the other day (Ruger M77 MKII Varmit Target in .223)...not a super high-end rig but should be good for taking coyotes and groundhogs and punching paper a few hundred yards away...




m4carbine.net is great and professional, ar15.com is good if you can weed through all the tacticool wannabes.


----------



## ArmAndHammer

Yeah, I'm on AR15.com...been a while and guess I never looked at it much as a place to learn and talk about long range shooting but I guess there's no reason not to since an AR can be a darn nice platform for that. I usually just go to buy and sell because I got tired of reading about people bragging about how much ammo and how many mags they were hoarding. I'll check out the other site as well.


----------



## liamstrain

http://www.targettalk.org/ - for olympic style
  
 http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ - for longer range and bench stuff.


----------



## quo155

I've been a member here for years and never thought about looking to see if there were other gun owners...I found this thread and am quiet impressed! I will be keeping up with this thread, for sure!
  
 I'm a FFL/gunsmith and get to "play" with many guns...and I still never tire of looking at them!


----------



## Chuckaroo91

Wow didn't expect to see this on here! I'll play!



Primary Weapons Systems by Charles Clay, on Flickr



Zev Glock by Charles Clay, on Flickr



IMG_9896 copy by Charles Clay, on Flickr



IMG_0042 copy by Charles Clay, on Flickr



IMG_9875 copy by Charles Clay, on Flickr



PWS by Charles Clay, on Flickr


----------



## keokio

nice didn't know there were so many gun owners here, ill post some of mine when i get home


----------



## switchride

Quick pic for someone wanting to buy it the other night.


----------



## tdonnellyem

Nice mk23. What can do you have on it?


----------



## Chuckaroo91

switchride said:


> Quick pic for someone wanting to buy it the other night.



 


Pretty awesome setup.


----------



## switchride

tdonnellyem said:


> Nice mk23. What can do you have on it?


 
  
 Thanks, AAC Tirant 45 currently.


----------



## Chuckaroo91

I want a can so badly. So jealous.


----------



## Podster

keokio said:


> nice didn't know there were so many gun owners here, ill post some of mine when i get home


 
 Me neither, now I figured out how to get my best friend from high school to join the Fi! He's been smithing for several years now and just picked up his third AR15, this is a shot of his bedroom safe filled will all the ones not stuck on/under/in every crack and orifice in his house
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 LOL


----------



## Pingupenguins

This exists? Lol. Might post a few pics of my babies up there too. hahahaha.


----------



## Oklahoma

One of my toys (only one I have a picture of right now):
  
 Ruger American in .308win with a 6-24x scope


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

chuckaroo91 said:


> I want a can so badly. So jealous.


 
  
 I was worried it wouldn't be worth the bother when I bought my YHM 5.56 SS Phantom and it would instead be pure novelty.  Turns out to be huge fun and weirdly addicting to use.  
  
 If you live in a place that allows them go for it!


----------



## bloodydoorknob

I'll play.  How bout some tupperware for starters...


----------



## Tehol

^^ Hey, that bottom rifle in particular looks familiar to me
  

  

  

  

  
 New EDC 
  

  

  

  
 Previous EDC


----------



## VXAce

bloodydoorknob said:


> I'll play.  How bout some tupperware for starters...


 
 Good tupperware is good.


----------



## bloodydoorknob

@Tehol, yes, they do look quite familiar, except mine is in need of that charging handle attachment and cheek riser.


----------



## bloodydoorknob

Some zev goodness...


----------



## Tehol

bloodydoorknob said:


> @Tehol, yes, they do look quite familiar, except mine is in need of that charging handle attachment and cheek riser.


 
 I recommend the underside rail attachment too.  That 2" of rail in front of the GLX cover is pretty useless.  That is unless you own the grenade launcher that attaches to it


----------



## Pingupenguins

I'll just leave this here.


----------



## pigmode

bloodydoorknob said:


> I'll play.  How bout some tupperware for starters...


 
  
  
  
 Nice. Is that an Austrian Steyr?


----------



## Gamingmusiclove

Well I don't get it. How can you guys mantain 2 hobbies at the same time !? I have trouble just keeping up with audio but you guys can drop money on bullets/guns AND new audio gear! Neverthless, amazing collections, drooled over a few ones


----------



## CrazyRay

gamingmusiclove said:


> Well I don't get it. How can you guys mantain 2 hobbies at the same time !? I have trouble just keeping up with audio but you guys can drop money on bullets/guns AND new audio gear! Neverthless, amazing collections, drooled over a few ones


 
  
*Gamingmusiclove, *I noticed that you are still in school, that is the reason that you cannot afford to have more than one hobby. Stay in school and get a good job and you too will be able to afford to have multiple hobbies.
 I have been working on my hobbies for 40 years, it is a fun and rewarding endeavor.


----------



## Gamingmusiclove

crazyray said:


> *Gamingmusiclove, *I noticed that you are still in school, that is the reason that you cannot afford to have more than one hobby. Stay in school and get a good job and you too will be able to afford to have multiple hobbies.
> 
> I have been working on my hobbies for 40 years, it is a fun and rewarding endeavor.



Haga damn right, same thing my father would tell me. However, guns are banned in my country and its already too much finding toilet paper :/. Fun fact: my grandfather used to collections many things, some of them would take space from my fathers room, which might be why he loved order so much, and why he hates collecting things


----------



## CrazyRay

gamingmusiclove said:


> Haga damn right, same thing my father would tell me. However, guns are banned in my country and its already too much finding toilet paper :/. Fun fact: my grandfather used to collections many things, some of them would take space from my fathers room, which might be why he loved order so much, and why he hates collecting things


 

*Gamingmusiclove, *your father sounds like a smart man, listen to him.
 I know that we all need/want instant gratification, but that sometimes does not happen.
 It took me 20 years to afford an original *Eames Lounge Chair* and the wait was worth it.


----------



## Gamingmusiclove

crazyray said:


> *Gamingmusiclove, *your father sounds like a smart man, listen to him.
> 
> I know that we all need/want instant gratification, but that sometimes does not happen.
> 
> ...



He is a really smart folk, which at the same time is kind of overwhelming, since he has achieved so much I sometimes doubt ill catch. On a more on topic note, have you ever had any trouble with family or friends or maybe eventos the cops regarding guns? I mean, they sure are eye candy, and a PLEASURE to use, but I feel that it can be too much trouble, specially outside the US


----------



## CrazyRay

gamingmusiclove said:


> He is a really smart folk, which at the same time is kind of overwhelming, since he has achieved so much I sometimes doubt ill catch. On a more on topic note, have you ever had any trouble with family or friends or maybe eventos the cops regarding guns? I mean, they sure are eye candy, and a PLEASURE to use, but I feel that it can be too much trouble, specially outside the US


 

*Gamingmusiclove, *sadly I live in Chicago, the guns laws here are pretty stringent. 
 The Chicago gun advocates are making strides though.
 I have friends that own guns and shoot with them often, but I have yet to buy one myself.


----------



## Gamingmusiclove

crazyray said:


> *Gamingmusiclove, *sadly I live in Chicago, the guns laws here are pretty stringent.
> 
> The Chicago gun advocates are making strides though.
> 
> I have friends that own guns and shoot with them often, but I have yet to buy one myself.



Yeah, I understand how you feel. Its just that the gun hobby is so polemic, ive only had 1 opportunity to fire a gun and it felt great! But since there are so many dangerous things about guns, and the fact it takes such a big responsibility, its kind of a risky hobby


----------



## Tehol

I hope things improve in VE, things have been deteriorating there for a while.   In recent years I was trying to maintain too many hobbies, Italian motorcycles, gaming PCs, firearms, moderate level prepping, portable audio.  Then I had a kid and I started paring back mostly because there are not enough hours in the day.  Sold the bikes, got rid of most of the PC equipment, the audio stuff is only a periodic hobby and nowadays it's really just the family and the firearms/home/self defense stuff.  I don't even own all _that many_ guns (a relative term of course), most of the $$ goes into ammo and courses.


----------



## Gamingmusiclove

tehol said:


> I hope things improve in VE, things have been deteriorating there for a while.   In recent years I was trying to maintain too many hobbies, Italian motorcycles, gaming PCs, firearms, moderate level prepping, portable audio.  Then I had a kid and I started paring back mostly because there are not enough hours in the day.  Sold the bikes, got rid of most of the PC equipment, the audio stuff is only a periodic hobby and nowadays it's really just the family and the firearms/home/self defense stuff.  I don't even own all _that many_ guns (a relative term of course), most of the $$ goes into ammo and courses.



Thanks man! Thankfully, i'm wealthy enough to afford audio equipment and a good life. And yeah, it always striked me as weird that you guys have so many hobbies


----------



## Currawong

I've enjoyed going shooting the few times I've been to the US. Many years ago I did a bit of shooting back in Australia, which was fun. Friends I have in one of the southern states are armed to the teeth, and the police don't bother to patrol there -- no need! I still can't get over going into Wallmart and being able to buy an AR15 or shotgun from the sports section and having them accept a Japanese driver's licence to buy ammo. 
  
 If I ever lived in the US and could legally do so, I'd buy a S&W M&P. That was the nicest handgun I've ever shot. Not sure if the below wasn't from it or a Glock, I don't remember. It was probably only 7 yards too. I do have a 15-yard target that was pretty well grouped from a post-CanJam range trip.


----------



## uncopy87

I have never went gun shooting but I would love to learn more about guns!


----------



## Tehol

She's new, she's purdy and she's mine.


----------



## Don Wolfberg

I believe I've completed my collection for now, I saw what interested me on the market and I've got everything that I was after


----------



## r00t61

uncopy87 said:


> I have never went gun shooting but I would love to learn more about guns!


 

 If you can take a course like NRA Basic Pistol or Basic Rifle, that would be a great place for a total beginner.


----------



## bigx5murf

A bushmaster and a PSA I built

 The current 308 project

 The bump firing 22lr

 The EDC


----------



## Don Wolfberg

So Korth has made a PPC gun . . let me just say I find this beautiful and hope they make an effort to get it on the California roster


----------



## Bob A (SD)

deleted


----------



## 30Cal

50 Caliber roundball gun
  

  
 My match mule.  600yd line


----------



## raypin

Mm..headshot......lol! (shot from my iPhone 7 yesterday)..

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/BQ-KbUlCE2w[/VIDEO]


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

30cal said:


> My match mule.  600yd line


 
  
 600 yards with iron sights? You must be a heck of a shot! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
  
  

via GIPHY


----------



## Wiljen

highflyin9 said:


> 600 yards with iron sights? You must be a heck of a shot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 



Sounds to me like he is a national match competitor. Nice to see another M1a still on the line for that. Most of the shooters have gone to ARs with 77gr SMKs these days for the 600 yard line.


----------



## ATau

Didn't know there was a Gun-Fi thread! Awesome!
 Though I suspect I might not be into the same type of guns as most of you, here's part of my collection. Hope you guys will appreciate it 
  
 Walther SSP

  
 Morini CM 84 E

  

  
 Sphinx AT 2000 S

  
 SIG P210


----------



## bigx5murf

ATau said:


> SIG P210



Wow, that's a beautiful piece. Is it 9mm or 7.65? Is it an original or one of the re-releases? I'm almost afraid to ask what you paid for it. I'm guessing close to 5 figures?


----------



## ATau

bigx5murf said:


> Wow, that's a beautiful piece. Is it 9mm or 7.65? Is it an original or one of the re-releases? I'm almost afraid to ask what you paid for it. I'm guessing close to 5 figures?



Thanks! Yeah, the P210 is an absolute gem. The one I have is a civilian version of the P210-2 (the original army one), and it's a 7.65 Para. From the serial number, I could determine that it was made in the early 70's. 



 


 

I paid around $1200 for it. These are very common in Switzerland, as they were used in the Swiss Army from 1949 until the introduction of the (awful) Sig Sauer P220 in 1975, and second hand ones don't get crazily expensive. Not sure how much the P210 goes for in other countries, I was quite shocked that you would suggest a 5 figure price!


----------



## bigx5murf

ATau said:


> I paid around $1200 for it. These are very common in Switzerland, as they were used in the Swiss Army from 1949 until the introduction of the (awful) Sig Sauer P220 in 1975, and second hand ones don't get crazily expensive. Not sure how much the P210 goes for in other countries, I was quite shocked that you would suggest a 5 figure price!



I've seen them go $5-$10k USD depending on condition, here in the states when they come up for sale.


----------



## ATau

bigx5murf said:


> I've seen them go $5-$10k USD depending on condition, here in the states when they come up for sale.



Wow... maybe I should start buying more of them here and selling them in the US, this way I could buy more headphones! 
I would get into trouble for that, right?... haha

All joking aside, I feel quite lucky to be in Switzerland just for this reason. The P210 is truly the Rolls Royce of pistols. Haven't found any 7.65 or 9mm that could beat it in pure accuracy.
Pretty much every single pistol shooter in Switzerland has at least one P210. I know some people who have over 10 of them in different versions: army P210-2, german customs P210-4, heavy frame P210-5, P210-6, long slides, extended barrels, etc...


----------



## bigx5murf

ATau said:


> Wow... maybe I should start buying more of them here and selling them in the US, this way I could buy more headphones!
> I would get into trouble for that, right?... haha
> 
> All joking aside, I feel quite lucky to be in Switzerland just for this reason. The P210 is truly the Rolls Royce of pistols. Haven't found any 7.65 or 9mm that could beat it in pure accuracy.
> Pretty much every single pistol shooter in Switzerland has at least one P210. I know some people who have over 10 of them in different versions: army P210-2, german customs P210-4, heavy frame P210-5, P210-6, long slides, extended barrels, etc...



It'll probably be very difficult to legally sell them here in the states. But shouldn't be impossible, I have an Italian police beretta 92. I've also seen lots of Polish makarovs here. Most likely you'll have to have an agreement with a FFL in the states, and let them take a cut. But probably still worth looking into.


----------



## 67flieger

bigx5murf said:


> It'll probably be very difficult to legally sell them here in the states. But shouldn't be impossible, I have an Italian police beretta 92. I've also seen lots of Polish makarovs here. Most likely you'll have to have an agreement with a FFL in the states, and let them take a cut. But probably still worth looking into.



Sig re-issued the P210 Legend several years ago but discontinued them a few years back.  

However, there is at least one shop in the USA that has some original Swiss police P210's for sale, Top Gun Supply in Ohio: http://www.topgunsupply.com/firearms/used-guns.html  The pistols are quite pricey, $2199 to $2999 depending on condition and whether it has its original box.  

I've shot several different Sig Sauer pistols and have always wanted to try to a P210.  It certainly is a very intriguing and iconic firearm.


----------



## ATau

67flieger said:


> Sig re-issued the P210 Legend several years ago...



I'd like to add that the P210 Legend was issued by Sig Sauer, and that they were made in Germany. Maybe I'm too patriotic, but to me, that's not a real P210. 
I had the chance to try one, and though they are very well made, they feel a bit harsh and metallic. Unlike the original Swiss made P210, which feels extremely smooth and perfectly adjusted.

I really do hope you can try a P210 one day. It's a fantastic pistol. Nothing like the more recent Sig Sauers.


----------



## 4krow

Just got back from Target practice, and it is always great. I have owned numerous rifles and pistolas, but keep coming back to the time honored 22 LR. Currently I am using a new CZ 453 bolt action, and need some advice for a scope. Not as easy as it sounds because of my eyesight not being perfect. Right now a Bushnell sits atop the rifle, and it is 'ok'. I may require more than 3X9. Tried my friends Sweet 17 scope this morning and find it to be much preferable.


----------



## Wiljen

long time shooter and competitor myself, I have had the same issue.  First iron sights weren't as crisp as they used to be, then scopes started to creep up in magnification.  For a 22 LR where shots are likely within 100 yards, a 3x9 with really good clarity is probably enough.  The bad news is there is no such thing as a good cheap scope.  I would look at the ones below and go somewhere you can try them side by side and see which is clearest for you.   These run between $300 and $650 for a 3x9 and all have lifetime warranty if memory serves.  I've used all and my personal preference is the Zeiss followed pretty closely by the Nikon.

Burris Fullfield E1
Leupold VX3
Nikon Monarch 3
Zeiss Terra


----------



## Brimstone

Glock 19 and HK VP9 Tactical


----------



## riderx1

Two words- Desert Eagle


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Three words here: Smith and Wesson.  I got the bug a few years back and amassed a fair collection of 4 inch barrel K frames. The older ones are great examples of craftsmanship and quality.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jan 30, 2018)

I'm pretty impressed with the Glock 42, that little 380 shoots as well as a full sized pistol for me up close:

@7 yards...





And my full sized pistol is a 40cal HK USP Expert... which is better farther out.

For rifles, my love is accurate and precise bolt action, and the Savage 10 in .308 is my preference, it will easily shoot 1/2 MOA without even really trying. If you do your part at 100 yards, you can link 5 shots together making one ragged hole that can be covered by a quarter. Mine isn't quite stock:





If I just want to have a good time on the cheap, semi-auto 22cal rifle is the way and my personal favorite is a modded SIG 522...




It simply never fails to fire (I don't think it's hiccuped once in many thousands of rounds so far...), is precise and accurate, and can empty a mag as fast as you want.


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## PointyFox (Jan 30, 2018)

NJ legal..


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## Oklahoma (Jun 8, 2018)

Finally got to take the new toy to the range. Did decent,shot about 75% on the 2 rounds of trap and abysmal on the sporting clays.

Beretta 686 Silver Pidgeon 1 Sporting 30" with extended chokes.


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## zephyrstar

Being a headphone fan, I gotta protect my hearing right?


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## zephyrstar

How 'bout some Hi-Power love for our Euro friends (with Novak's Spec Ops packages):


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## twitch133

Oklahoma said:


> Finally got to take the new toy to the range. Did decent,shot about 75% on the 2 rounds of trap and abysmal on the sporting clays.
> 
> Beretta 686 Silver Pidgeon 1 Sporting 30" with extended chokes.



I love a Beretta! That scroll work on the receiver is great. 

Is this your first shotgun? Shooting in the high teens at trap is really respectable for a newer shooter! I have been shooting skeet for years now, averaging somewhere around a 95.5% to 95.8% (Between 23 and 24 targets every round) but I still struggle to get into the 20's on the trap field.


On the topic of Beretta, Here is my 692 sporting. My photo's are kind of crappy... But, iPhone, poor lighting, and I am too lazy to get out the good camera right now.








I am so torn... I have a bit of money saved up, and I still need to wait for a little bit more. My next big purchase is either going to be a Beretta DT11 Skeet. Or, a pair of Utopia's and a WA22...

I really want the DT11 though, I am not as big of a fan of sporting guns. I like the 28' barrels, parallel comb and more pronounced pistol grip that a skeet gun has to offer.


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## Oklahoma

twitch133 said:


> I love a Beretta! That scroll work on the receiver is great.
> 
> Is this your first shotgun? Shooting in the high teens at trap is really respectable for a newer shooter! I have been shooting skeet for years now, averaging somewhere around a 95.5% to 95.8% (Between 23 and 24 targets every round) but I still struggle to get into the 20's on the trap field.



It is the first one I have owned, I shot here and there over 10 years ago and would average 20-22 on trap. I shot some skeet but never enough to get better than a 50% average.


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## nmxdaven (Jun 3, 2020)

This thread needs reviving!

Few of mine.

Mk18
MK11 inspired carbine.
MK12 with some anvis goggles. There actually off being put into RNVG housings this week.
Some shottys


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## Khan SW

A couple of my Sig's

Sig Sauer MPX
Sig Sauer P226 Legion


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## m-i-c-k-e-y (Sep 14, 2020)

Yeah this thread needs reviving. Bought again for my brother his EDC gun. A Glock G45. Previously it was a custom LB UM .45.


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## wuwhere

Sig Sauer P229 Classic Carry.


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## wuwhere

PSA KS-47 10.5"


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## cdf294

What an odd thread. It seems to go dormant for months or years at a time and then pops back up randomly so I've never noticed it until now.

I have a couple of "good luck finding ammo for that" firearms- a Dan Wesson Model 40-V8S .357 SuperMag and a LAR Grizzly Mk1 .45 WinMag. 
Both were picked up for very reasonable prices because, well, good luck finding ammo for that. Thankfully, there are simple solutions for such problems.


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## m-i-c-k-e-y

And many years back when it was not that commercialized, as a experiment, we had a full functioning 2011 in .22 TCM.


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## cdf294

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> And many years back when it was not that commercialized, as a experiment, we had a full functioning 2011 in .22 TCM.



That's an interesting piece and a fine looking firearm.
Thanks for sharing it.


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## m-i-c-k-e-y

Father and Son: A custom Jim Hoag 6 inch (left) Les Baer Ultimate Master w/ 1.5 inch option (right)


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## cdf294 (Nov 30, 2020)

Time for a little single shot love.


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## wareagle69

cdf294 said:


> Time for a little single shot love.


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## PointyFox

> Under *New Jersey* state *law*, manufacturing, transporting or possessing a *slingshot* without "an explainable, lawful purpose" is a fourth degree crime which is punishable by up to 18 months in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.



The only valid "lawful purpose" is that you are performing a professional task that is commonly done with slingshots. There aren't any, so slingshots flat-out can't legally exist in New Jersey.


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## wareagle69

Time for a new post here. 
BSA Martini Model 12 circa 1925.  
Single shot Martini falling block action in 22lr and Parker-Hale front and rear aperture sights.  
Target shows a 50 round box of GECO Bolt Action ammo shot @ 50 yards. 
 I'm a decent shooter, but the rifle gets most of the credit.  
95 year old firearm and a box of $3.50 ammo, what's not to like....


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## Powermankw

I would... but I sold all my high dollar stuff to buy audio gear.... just sayin'


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## X62503

My Model 12 was used by guards at Dow Chemical in Houston in the early 1960's, and it's my favorite shotgun.


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## RingingEars

Picked this up a couple months ago.


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## Powermankw (Jul 21, 2022)

Woops


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## Powermankw

I actually sold this to a friend, but audio funds were needed, so I bought it back. I really love the DW V-bob. I had some other high dollar 1911s that were sold for other hobbies, I'm happy to have this one back.


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## Spawn300Z

Just. Picked up the Sig Sauer P365XL Spector Comp and Holosun Site


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## ReiSam

X62503 said:


> My Model 12 was used by guards at Dow Chemical in Houston in the early 1960's, and it's my favorite shotgun.
> 
> 
> Also I've been working on my latest project(building AR-15), only need to get my hands on muzzle break and install optics(new grip, stock and AR 15 handguard https://gritrsports.com/shooting/accessories/handguards/ arrived today, can't wait to finish this build!)


Oh man it looks pristine. How much was it?


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## LA2019

My two EDC's.  Springfield XDS-45 & Charter Arms Undercover .38.


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## m-i-c-k-e-y

After seeing this oldies, would like to post mine too.
Aside from the Jim Hoag 6 incher. Have a SIG 510-4 too.


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## VRacer-111 (Jan 5, 2023)

How the final version of my Savage 10 looked before I let it go:






MDT TAC21 chassis with Masterpiece Arms EVG grip and a Magpul buttstock. Also upgraded the extractor parts since it was very weak and an issue.

Wanted a lighter .308 bolt gun setup and went with this for a significant bit of weight savings:






At same time also wanted to get a lever action, so won a used 30AS Marlin (early 90's model hardly fired but bit scuffed up safe-queen with excellent bore) and built it up how I wanted:










Can run any optic from red dot/prism to scout scope to nightvision with the modded XS rail. The preferred use is with the Skinner winged peep/ghost rear and taller .6" front blade and it's dead on accurate from 50 to 150 yards. Internals & trigger upgraded with Wild West parts... very noticeable difference from the heavy, gritty stock trigger. With the WW triger setup it's one of the best tight, crisp breaks ever on a rifle - absolutely lovely trigger. The lightweight medium size loop aluminum lever from Rangerpoint Precision is much nicer than the stock lever on the hands. Also got rid of the factory crossbolt safety and installed a Turnbull Restoration safety replacement instead - looks like a factory screw but is a switchable hammer blocker (goes from no safety besides the half-cock to gun lock out via a hammer drop block.) The Form buttstock and Midwest Industries rail are for better ergonomics and performance. Cheek height instantly adjustable for whatever sighting system is being used with the Form stock. The Magpul M-lok grip panels make foregrip perfect diameter for my hands, the beat up stock furniture was way too skinny.

I also ended up getting another lever after falling in love with it upon first sight...










A Winchester/Miroku 1885 BPCR Target with 30" barrel in 45-70 Govt. Took off the scope mounts & had Montana Vintage Arms build up one of their Soule style rear setups and globe/level front sight. Had slight reservations how shooting it would be, but it's actually really pleasant to shoot with factory 405 grainers. Will eventually be hand loading better BC 535 grain Postell pattern rounds for more accuracy.


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## gimmeheadroom

PointyFox said:


> The only valid "lawful purpose" is that you are performing a professional task that is commonly done with slingshots. There aren't any, so slingshots flat-out can't legally exist in New Jersey.



Not even slingshot salesmen doing field demos?


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## PointyFox

gimmeheadroom said:


> Not even slingshot salesmen doing field demos?



Can't sell them in NJ, so that in itself is illegal.


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## gimmeheadroom

PointyFox said:


> Can't sell them in NJ, so that in itself is illegal.



Travelling slingshot salesman on the way to a trade fair in Delaware?


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## PointyFox

gimmeheadroom said:


> Travelling slingshot salesman on the way to a trade fair in Delaware?


Ok, that's allowed but the salesman may need to prove that they had to travel through NJ.


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