# Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII



## HeatFan12

Back on 08-25-06 Superpredator started a thread on tube rolling with the Darkvoice 336 & 336i. It was that thread that really caught my interest in the DV. Before I went ahead and bought it, I wanted to know the certain tubes it used and the different combinations it was capable of, as well as the ins and outs and how it compared to other amps. I began reading it one night and did not stop until the last page.
 There is so much information in that thread, by so many different people, about everything 336. Opinions, favorites, hum, maintenance, you name it, it's there. Outstanding....I go back to it everytime to see if I missed anything or to see if any new developments have been posted.

 If you are considering a Darkvoice 336i or 336SE, it is suggested reading so you can be ready to really enjoy this amp.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/dar...-tubes-193214/


 So why am I starting a new thread on this? Well, really, I see it as a continuation of something that was started two years ago. A sort of reference #2. More tubes, more music, more gear= new ideas....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Before I add my tidbits on the DV, I have included some pics, so you can see that I really like this little amp...
  
  

  










 My listening station at home






 Cousin Beyer & Senn hanging out enjoying the tubes. (2 of the sweetest sounding phones with the DV). I know they should be on my head, but I had to take them off to take the pic.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Did I mention tube rolling with the DV can be hazardous to your wallet? But it's so much fun
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... I see it as collecting vintage electronic parts
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 First and foremost- this is not a review of anything. Just MY experience with the DV336SE. I leave the reviews to the pros- Skylab, Pataburd, Fitz, Penchum, Negatron, Mazuki and others...

 In case you're wondering- "Why do you have two and not the 332 or 337 if you like the DV amps so much?" Good question...My take on it-

 1) I really like this amp and all its possibilities.
 2) The 6SN7 is a great tube to play with.
 3) It's not hybrid (don't have to wait 6-12 hours before rolling) (I love my x-can, however, I don't open it up)
 4) We all know about the "hum" with certain tubes. I was getting tired of trying to rid the hum from some tubes while not being able to listen to music. Problem solved... (The hum does go away- Thanks Nick)
 5) Could not pass up the live.com 25% & ebay 10%= 35%...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Let's talk tubes...
 The beauty of this amp is that you can tailor it to your headphones or your music. Example- "My Grados are so bright, I can barely open my eyes"- Throw in some warm sounding tubes before you reach for your sunglasses (Tung Sol, VT-231, Sylvania brown base...etc), "My Senns seem so dark with this CD"- Liven it up with some RCAs, GE, Raytheon etc..)....POSSIBILITIES

 Before I get flamed- I love Grado & Senn.....

 One thing I have noticed when using a real good power tube (TS5998, Bendix6080WB...) is that they seem to wake up the weaker driver tubes. It sort of brings out the best in them, so to speak... Again- POSSIBILITIES


 My favorite combo so far (we all have them)- TS5998 & TS6SN7GTB (tall tube, short black plate)....I also like the Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7WGT (brown base). Next week it will probably be a different combo. Different flavors, music, moods....Mix and match-Synergy...Find out what works for you...


 Would like to share a little maintenance that I do with the tube pins. I use DeoxIT and a toothbrush and clean all the pins, then add a very thin layer of SilClear. Works really well. I received a Ken-Rad VT-231 that had so much noise- static, crackling...I took a good look at the pins and they had some sort of residue on them that you really could not tell unless you looked really close. I put on my cleaning hat and after about 3 min. threw it in and it was dead silent....I was about to dump it, thought it was no good. So I now use that process on all my tubes. A bit tedious but worth it...

 Another tidbit of info- A lot of the tube sellers on ebay (not all), do not have headphone amps to try them out. They only have testers. The tube will test good, however, they can't hear the nuisances from dirty pins like we do.


 Like I said before, this is just basic info that I have dealt with and hopefully it will help others as the previous thread helped me.


 Well, that's enough for me. Let's hear some new combos, tricks, ideas and keep the DV336 following going strong...


 ***All the usual disclaimers apply to the above- MY gear, MY ears, your mileage may vary....


 On a final note, to give props to this wonderful forum- Everything in the pics (except my laptop & CDP-CE335) was purchased due to research on head-fi...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Thanks for reading!!!
  
  
*UPDATE (09-16-15)*
  
*Other driver tubes tested with adapters:*
  
*7N7 & 7AF7* (7N7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*5670 / 2c51 / 396A* (2c51 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*5687* (5687 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6CG7 & 6GU7* (6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6922 / 6DJ8 / ECC88* (6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6BK7B & 6BQ7A/6BZ7 & 6BZ8 & 6BS8 & 6BC8* *&* *6H30Pi (EH) *(6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6F8G* (6F8G to 6SN7 adapter w/ cap) **(have not personally tried these)


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## 1bit

Hi,
 New guy here looking for advice. I have the DarkVoice 336se, I have Grado 80's, 6080 Mullard in the rear and a Raytheon 6SN7GT in the front, IPOD 5th Gen running RockBox using audio cables not the Earphone jack!! recordings are FLAC,WMA but I still don't get the Audiophile WOW factor..Please advise what next..I don't want to risk £100's on rare valves so lets keep it real...


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## cafe zeenuts

hey heatfan nice setup you got there!

 For you 1bit, the reason you not getting the wow factor is because you have a crap source. No matter how much you spend on valves/tubes you are not going to get massive improvements!

 You need to buy a decent source before you spend big on valves/tubes, cables etc etc!

 Cheers


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## 1bit

Wow!! Not so sure it's a crap source, I have read quite a few other members quote the Ipod as having hi quality audio ability but hey we are all open to opinions and alternative views. I have used my Cambridge Audio 640c with quality interconnects but still I am missing the point ..back to you guy's....8-P


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## HeatFan12

Quote:


 hey heatfan nice setup you got there! 
 

Thanks cafe z...

 1bit, I also run my ipod (rockboxed, flac) sometimes from my DV and it sounds great. From your post, I'm assuming you are running it through the dock, not the headphone out. It does not matter how good your cables are if you are running the ipod to the DV from the headphone out. What line out dock and interconnect are you using?

 Jesse


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## cafe zeenuts

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *1bit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow!! Not so sure it's a crap source, I have read quite a few other members quote the Ipod as having hi quality audio ability but hey we are all open to opinions and alternative views. I have used my Cambridge Audio 640c with quality interconnects but still I am missing the point ..back to you guy's....8-P_

 

Sorry nothing personal mate.

 Maybe you need to try something better than a 640c.

 Cheers


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## 1bit

cafe zeenuts,

 No offence taken, you opinion is valued!! Any positives to inject to my quest?

 HeatFan12.. (Jesse)

 Thanks.. I am using the dock "out" as you guessed.

 I am new to the whole Tube Amp, IPod source adventure so I only spent £20 on the RCA interconnects off e-bay, cheap with reasonable reviews..Copper, twin shielded gold plated blah!.

 Back to my source CD with Cambridge Audio £40 interconnects, nothing great either it's just ok. So hence me asking about the tubes, or headphones being the problem!!

 I don't want to try and justify my purchase nor discredit any other views but a £250.00 cd player with 5 star rating, £40 interconnects straight into my DV and it only sounds marginally better than using my Grado sr80's straight out of my IPod via the earphone jack has to be questioned!

 If I wanted to spend thousands of pounds I would not be using a sub £200 valve amp!!

 I would be happy to spend more on my interconnects for the IPod but I need advice on the products available..

 Back to you guys.



 1Bit


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## HeatFan12

1bit

 There is something definitely wrong there, if your ipod without an amp sounds better. If it were the tubes and you're using Grados, you would notice static, noise etc.. What is your volume pot on the DV? Mine never goes past 9 o'clock with any source and it's plenty loud.

 I'm guessing it's not your interconnect either. Somehow the DV is not getting the juice it needs. 

 As for the Cambridge and ipod, they should sound very good on the DV. I'm still guessing a connection problem. Just to confirm everything- you are using an RCA (DV) to mini and dock for ipod and RCA (DV) to RCA for the Cambridge?

 Jesse


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## 1bit

HeatFan12

 I have 2 options for my iPod, RCA to mini iPod dock plus an iPod 30-pin male connector to RCA, both sound pretty much the same though.
 No I am not sure it's the cables either, oh and as for my "source" cd player I used RCA to RCA.

 It all sounds just about ok, but if counting the DV, headphones, tubes, 5th gen iPod and the few interconnects I am in for about £600, I thought it would sound quite good for that amount.

 The DV volume is fine as you said 9 o'clock is well enough and it shows plenty more if necessary. I have a couple of tubes on order, 6080 GE 6AS7ECC230 BLACK PLATE and a Vintage Sylvania 6SN7GTB.

 I will see how it sounds after a few hours on these tubes and post back.


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## HeatFan12

Quote:


 It all sounds just about ok, but if counting the DV, headphones, tubes, 5th gen iPod and the few interconnects I am in for about £600, I thought it would sound quite good for that amount. 
 

Absolutely, it should...One last thing that came to mind. On your rockbox have you set your preamp and do you use replay gain on your flac files?

 Keep us posted on any results...

 Jesse


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## Skylab

I love the picture of the tube drawer. Collecting tubes is GREAT fun, IMO, but it sure is bad for the wallet


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## 1bit

HeatFan12

 I have not set any parameters, could you please advise as to what they should be set to..I just left them as default ..Cheers

 1bit


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## HeatFan12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love the picture of the tube drawer. Collecting tubes is GREAT fun, IMO, but it sure is bad for the wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks Skylab...Yes it is....But IMO it is all part of this beautiful journey...


  Quote:


 I have not set any parameters, could you please advise as to what they should be set to..I just left them as default ..Cheers 
 

If you have rockboxed and encoded in FLAC, I'm assuming you are using Foobar to manage your music before putting it on your ipod...I encode with dbPoweramp to FLAC or WavPack (ah, the beauty of rockbox), then transfer the music to my ipod...If you used the RG (Replay Gain) feature, the preamp feature comes to life...---Settings--General Settings--Playback--Replay Gain--Pre-amp....I set my pre-amp to 7.5db.....Remember, this only works if you use the Replay Gain on your files...

 It took me a little while to get the right setting, but once you find yours, it's great.

 I'm just trying to figure out why your DV is not playing nice....

 Let me know if that helps...

 Jesse


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## 1bit

Hi Jesse,

 Thanks for the advice on the RockBox & Real Gain codec’s.. I think the issue must have been with my Mullard 6AS7. I am now using a 6080 GE 6AS7ECC230 BLACK PLATE and an old Brimar 6SN7, all of my other tubes sound fantastic!!!.
 I have a KEN-RAD 6SN7 and a few others to try later down the line.
 Loads of late night listening sessions since I have ripped my music collection. I have not listened to some of them for years and yet they sound better than ever. I must say I have noticed the real difference between quality sound recordings and some of today’
 One more question, I have a Sylvania 6SN7GTB...It's only audible on one channel, no broken bits of filament/debris in the tube, it all looks ok so any advice as to what can be done, is it a bin job? Could I run it in for longer and hope for some miraculous change? 
 Regards

 1bit


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## Skylab

If you have a tube that has one channel dead, it needs to go in the trash. Using it could cause some really bad problems.


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## HeatFan12

Great to hear that you are enjoying your music 1bit.

 I had a Tung Sol that had the same problem and unfortunately that is the only solution- getting rid of it. The channel is dead and it's not coming back and most of the time there will be no warning signs.

 Jes


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## Tub-o-mat

I just did some tuberolling yesterday and I think I moved a big step forward. My curent setup is: Marconi 6SN7 and a Raytheon-Jan 6080WC. 

 I'm using it with a Linn Mimik CD player and a LP12 record player with an AKG 701 (Sennheiser HD 600 is in my inventory, too). 

 Especially with the 701 (yes, they are 'burned in') this is the first setup of tubes that I really enjoy. The sound is very clear, detailled (spotting details that I've not heard yet on recordings), voices are very clear and understandable, bass is deep and the heights have lost their 'agressiveness'. Overall, the sound made a big step towards being more natural.

 I can easily attribute those changes to the change of the 6AS7 (the larger tube in the back) to the 6080WC.

 Just another question - has anyone tried different power cables for the Darkvoice or changing the phase?

 Thanks
 Tub-O-Mat


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## HeatFan12

Quote:


 Just another question - has anyone tried different power cables for the Darkvoice or changing the phase? 
 

In reference to the power cables, I have a couple of upgraded ones, however, the difference to me was more evident when I connect them to my DAC vs. amp, thus making my amp sound better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 That is a very debatable topic here. I did not spend a lot of money on them, but I do notice a bit more uummff with them. IMO........


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## Ocean7

These drawers are awesome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am waiting for my DV 336i to show up, probably next Monday. In the meantime I have read each of the 100+ pages of the other tube rolling thread. My eyes were burning but plenty good advise there. That being said this long thread got me contaminated. I don't have the amp yet but I already purchased some tubes. Help! I received a Mullard 6080 from Langrex (looks like brand new) and more will show up in the mail next week.

 I know, I know... I'll listen to the stock tubes for an extended period first. Still I'm looking forward to collect more information about good tubes for the 336 here.


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## HeatFan12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ocean7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_These drawers are awesome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am waiting for my DV 336i to show up, probably next Monday. In the meantime I have read each of the 100+ pages of the other tube rolling thread. My eyes were burning but plenty good advise there. That being said this long thread got me contaminated. I don't have the amp yet but I already purchased some tubes. Help! I received a Mullard 6080 from Langrex (looks like brand new) and more will show up in the mail next week.

 I know, I know... I'll listen to the stock tubes for an extended period first. Still I'm looking forward to collect more information about good tubes for the 336 here._

 

Thanks Ocean7..

 I also read that entire thread before receiving the DV while taking notes on various combinations. You will have a lot of fun with different tubes. Recently I have been using a JAN CRC 6AS7G with a brown base GE 6SN7GTB and really like the sound with my DT770s.

 It's all about finding the sound you like. The Tung Sol 5998 is excellent. I'm sure as you have seen the 6SN7 tube can get very expensive, just choose carefully and buy from respectable dealers...

 Happy rolling


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## Ocean7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeatFan12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Ocean7..

 I also read that entire thread before receiving the DV while taking notes on various combinations. You will have a lot of fun with different tubes. Recently I have been using a JAN CRC 6AS7G with a brown base GE 6SN7GTB and really like the sound with my DT770s.

 It's all about finding the sound you like. The Tung Sol 5998 is excellent. I'm sure as you have seen the 6SN7 tube can get very expensive, just choose carefully and buy from respectable dealers...

 Happy rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks. Lots of fun ahead indeed. And I'll be careful with my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also want that TS 5998. I just missed one on the auction site that sold for $15.


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## Skylab

Y'know, I recently went back to 6AS7G's in my 337, and darned if I don't think I like them better. Not sure the same would be true in the 336, but the 337 is not a warm sounding tube amp, and in fact tubes that are a little warmer sound better to me in the 337. My Tung-sol black-plate 6AS7G's are a little warmer than the 5998, and seem so far to be very nearly as detailed.

 In any case, Tung-Sol 6AS7's are terrific, and worth seeking out.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I currently have the JAN CRC RCA 5692 / JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G in my 336i and it sounds pretty good.


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## Tub-o-mat

I recently found the perfect fit of tubes for my 336i and my AKG 701: metal-base JAN-RCA 6080WC (for the 6AS7) and black- base Tung-Sol 6SN7GT (bought coincidentally for just 7 $). The Tung- Sol works better for me than the Sylvania 6SN7's.

 The change in sound with my 701's in this particular combo could be described as follows:
 - Deeper bass, more body but still dry
 - Smoother highs 
 - Beautiful, smooth, singing mids

 Need to mention of course my 701 has >300 hours on it. With this combo, I am happy for the first time and I now really prefer it over its predecessor (Sennheiser HD600).

 For cables, I played around with various pricy power cables and yes they do change the sound drastically - almost as if you'd change tubes. After listening to some of them the one that sounded the best *in my combo* was a DIY of the thickest piece of cable you could get in a store with decent plug and socket for the connectors (overall, 20$ costs) - but the whole thing as short as possible.

 I could imagine the next step that would yield improvement is having an isolating transformer (if that's the right english word for a transformer with 1:1 windings) that filters all the HF rubbish in the power supply before it comes to my Darkvoice. Probably especially useful in our modern households with switching-mode-power-supply DVD players/ PC's/ light installations and power-line-LAN's.

 Anyone with experiences on this?

 Thanks & happy listening
 Tub-O-Mat


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## dunski

Hey guys,

 I'm looking for a Sylvania 6SN7WGT. Anyone have one for sale? Or know a good place to find one?

 Thanks,
 Steven.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dunski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys,

 I'm looking for a Sylvania 6SN7WGT. Anyone have one for sale? Or know a good place to find one?

 Thanks,
 Steven._

 

YGPM


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_YGPM_

 

Good thing you jumped in, because I gave mine away with the DV336i when I sold it...


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## SEABREEZE

I found the Chatam 6080wa ( just like the bendex) & the Sylvania 6sn7w to be a sweet combination.
 Also occasionally I would switch out the Sylvania 6sn7w with a motorolla 3122326 and that too was a sweet match.

 I also use a matched pair of Bendex 6080's in my SP Extreme.

 As for sources , I use a resolution audio modded Opus 21, with Sony transport, Cambridge Azur 840 cdp and an ipod

 I mention this because I recently had the pleasure to listen to a RSA Raptor hitched to a vmod & imod. Dont discount the little old ipod as a source, that system was smoking. A couple upgrades and you have a great source for a little bang.


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## dunski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_YGPM_

 

Thanks Skylab, you got a deal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You mentioned that the WE 421a is just a rebranded Tung-sol 5998. Are there any differences between the two?

 -Steve


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## Skylab

No. Only Tung-sol made the 5998 (not to be confused at all with the 5998A). The WE421A is just a Western Electric branded TS 5998. Don't let anyone tell you different. They are identical.


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## dunski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. Only Tung-sol made the 5998 (not to be confused at all with the 5998A). The WE421A is just a Western Electric branded TS 5998. Don't let anyone tell you different. They are identical._

 

Good to know. Thanks.


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## DoubleEs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. Only Tung-sol made the 5998 (not to be confused at all with the 5998A). The WE421A is just a Western Electric branded TS 5998. Don't let anyone tell you different. They are identical._

 

Cheers Sky, I'm now staying well away from the pair that's currently on sale at the Bay


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## Tridacnid

My favorite combo so far has been a Tung-Sol 6520 and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, both NOS.


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## Skylab

Anyone who pays the big $$$ people want for the WE421A is just wasting their money. I have a pair of Tung-Sol branded tubes labeled 421A's - these also are just 5998's of course - but Tung-Sol was likely trying to play off the success of the WE421A.

 The key point is that ONLY Tung-Sol ever made this tube.


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## DoubleEs

Can I ask what would be a fair price to pay for a set of 5998s, non premium VT-231/6SN7GTs and 6AS7Gs.

 I'm looking to start buying some tubes for my 336 and LD6 but I don't really know what the average market prices are for these tubes. I have read that if you're lucky, you can find them up for as little as a few dollars. I don't think there's a chance in hell I can get these for a few dollars, so I'm looking for realistic prices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have seen some RCA 6SN7s going for $200 or more and that's just way more than what I want to/can spend on a couple of tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My budget is in the $30-50 range (lower is better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Is it possible to get decent tubes for that sort of price?

 I'm looking to buy most of these off ebay, and as I don't have a tube tester, I have to rely on the seller not selling me duds. Is this a good way of sourcing tubes?

 Thanks


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## Tridacnid

You can get a NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and a NOS RCA 6AS7 off ebay for about $20. That combo is my second favorite.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoubleEs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I ask what would be a fair price to pay for a set of 5998s, non premium VT-231/6SN7GTs and 6AS7Gs.

 I'm looking to start buying some tubes for my 336 and LD6 but I don't really know what the average market prices are for these tubes. I have read that if you're lucky, you can find them up for as little as a few dollars. I don't think there's a chance in hell I can get these for a few dollars, so I'm looking for realistic prices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have seen some RCA 6SN7s going for $200 or more and that's just way more than what I want to/can spend on a couple of tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My budget is in the $30-50 range (lower is better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Is it possible to get decent tubes for that sort of price?

 I'm looking to buy most of these off ebay, and as I don't have a tube tester, I have to rely on the seller not selling me duds. Is this a good way of sourcing tubes?

 Thanks_

 

You need to read the 6SN7 Reference thread if you haven't already. There are a HUGE variety of 6SN7 tubes, and they will vary incredibly widely in price from $200 each to $5 each. The good news here is that ANY US-made vintage 6SN7 tube (assuming it works) will sound better than the truly awful sounding chinese 6SN7 that ships with the 336. You should spend the extra money here IMO - if you have a budget of $50, spend $40 on a 6SN7, and just get an RCA 6AS7G (which will sound very good).

 A Tung-Sol 5998 generally sells for $20-50 depending on condition and how many are available at any given point in time.

 If you want I can sell you a Tung-Sol tall-bottle 6SN7GTB and a Sylvania 6AS7G for $30 that are a pretty nice set of tubes for this amp, PM me. I need to get rid of some tubes


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## DoubleEs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You need to read the 6SN7 Reference thread if you haven't already. There are a HUGE variety of 6SN7 tubes, and they will vary incredibly widely in price from $200 each to $5 each. The good news here is that ANY US-made vintage 6SN7 tube (assuming it works) will sound better than the truly awful sounding chinese 6SN7 that ships with the 336. You should spend the extra money here IMO - if you have a budget of $50, spend $40 on a 6SN7, and just get an RCA 6AS7G (which will sound very good).

 A Tung-Sol 5998 generally sells for $20-50 depending on condition and how many are available at any given point in time.

 If you want I can sell you a Tung-Sol tall-bottle 6SN7GTB and a Sylvania 6AS7G for $30 that are a pretty nice set of tubes for this amp, PM me. I need to get rid of some tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks Sky, I may take you up on that offer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I have read the 6SN7 Reference thread, but reading it just makes it worse. There are just too many variables to the 6SL7s, things like black plates, grey plates, red, black, brown bases, how many halo they have yada yada yada....and they're all priced differently depending on which combo you want 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 In the meantime, I have a question regarding the TS 5998. I have managed to find one, mint condition and NOS, but the seller tells me it's not a TS but a Raytheon. 

 Can soneone confirm that only TS made 5998s and that they made them for other people as well and that they just re-badged them as their own. 

 I know about the WEs but they don't call theirs 5998 but 421s...


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## Skylab

Tung-Sol did rebrand the 5998 for some companies, but I have never seen one Raytheon branded. Can you link to a picture? The key issue is - is it REALLY a 5998, and not a 5998A, or something else...


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## thebathingape

I got my 6AS7G RCA JAN and 6SN7GTB GE 1961 and they truly make my 336se sound much much better. This is my first experience with tube amps and changing tubes. You guys were very right in saying that the stock tubes for the 336se are rubbish. 

 I got the 6AS7G RCA JAN first, and used that with the stock 6SN7 tube. The sound became much punchier and more open. It felt more controlled and energetic. 
 The day after i got the 6SN7GTB GE 1961, and when i fired it up there was a loud humming noise coming out of the amp. I thought i had pushed my luck and that the road to audio bliss wouldn't be that easy, but the humming sound disappeared completely after 2-3 hours burn in. Now it is dead silent. When it comes to the sound it took a while longer for the 6SN7GTB GE to burn in, but the sound is open, smooth and pleasant. I have to listen more to make more statements 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But one thing i can say is that the stock 6SN7 sounds very dull and dark in comparison.

 Next is a DAC, (probably a Cambridge DacMagic when its back in stock where i live)

 Thank you very much for the recommendations here. They were really spot on!


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoubleEs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Sky, I may take you up on that offer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I have read the 6SN7 Reference thread, but reading it just makes it worse. There are just too many variables to the 6SL7s, things like black plates, grey plates, red, black, brown bases, how many halo they have yada yada yada....and they're all priced differently depending on which combo you want 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 In the meantime, I have a question regarding the TS 5998. I have managed to find one, mint condition and NOS, but the seller tells me it's not a TS but a Raytheon. 

 Can soneone confirm that only TS made 5998s and that they made them for other people as well and that they just re-badged them as their own. 

 I know about the WEs but they don't call theirs 5998 but 421s..._

 

I think I have a Tung Sol reissue brown-base 6SN7Gxx tube (that Skylab pointed me to a year ago on ebay) that I saved but somehow missed when I sold the 336i. I'll try find it and drop it in the mail for you, if your address hasn't changed.


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## dunski

The Tung-sol 5998 I bought from Sky came in today and I have to say I am very impressed. I went from a Motorola 6AS7G + CBS 6SN7GTB to the Tung-sol 5998 + CBS 6SN7GTB and improvement in sound is amazing. Feels much more open and detailed with a very controlled low end. I'm impressed.

 Skylab, how does the CBS 6SN7GTB compare to the tall-bottle Tung Sol brown-base? Will that be a good match for the 5998?

 -Steve.


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dunski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Tung-sol 5998 I bought from Sky came in today and I have to say I am very impressed. I went from a Motorola 6AS7G + CBS 6SN7GTB to the Tung-sol 5998 + CBS 6SN7GTB and improvement in sound is amazing. Feels much more open and detailed with a very controlled low end. I'm impressed.

 Skylab, how does the CBS 6SN7GTB compare to the tall-bottle Tung Sol brown-base? Will that be a good match for the 5998?

 -Steve._

 


 Those TS 5998s are great tubes. Glad to hear that you are enjoying them.

 Whenever I want a change of pace I throw in a Russian 6H13C and a JAN CG 6SN7GT (pictured below). This is a nice "warm" combo. The 6H13C does not get a lot of love but I personally like it with several 6SN7s.






 The beauty of tube rolling....


----------



## Skylab

Hi Steve, glad you like the 5998. It is indeed a great sounding tube.

 Which CBS 6SN7GTB do you have exactly, do you know? does it have a black or brown base? Flat or triangular plates? Many of the CBS 6SN7's are very nice tubes.

 The tall-bottle Tung-Sol I am sending you has a nice combination of resolution and warmth, but it's like the 5998 - not the lushest tube around, but not the leanest, either. Kind of in the middle.


----------



## dunski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which CBS 6SN7GTB do you have exactly, do you know? does it have a black or brown base? Flat or triangular plates? Many of the CBS 6SN7's are very nice tubes._

 

It's a black base with red print on it. I'm not sure if it has flat or triangular plates. I'll take a pic later and show you when I get home later tonight. I have to say though, I am VERY pleased with 5998 + CBS combo. 

 -Steve.


----------



## dunski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dunski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a black base with red print on it. I'm not sure if it has flat or triangular plates. I'll take a pic later and show you when I get home later tonight. I have to say though, I am VERY pleased with 5998 + CBS combo. 

 -Steve._

 

Below is the CBS tube I'm using. It's a CBS 6SN7GTB black-base:






 Sky, thanks again for the 5998 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :





 -Steve.


----------



## Skylab

Right, so that is a triangular-plate CBS 6SN7GTB. Nice tube. I prefer the Tung-Sol, but will be interested in your thoughts.


----------



## HeatFan12

Beautiful pics Steve.....


----------



## DoubleEs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tung-Sol did rebrand the 5998 for some companies, but I have never seen one Raytheon branded. Can you link to a picture? The key issue is - is it REALLY a 5998, and not a 5998A, or something else..._

 

I emailed the seller about this and he said he made a mistake with his reply, he said it's a NOS TS-5998 he is sending me


----------



## Skylab

Well, that makes sense


----------



## sacd lover

I bought SEABREEZEs DV 336SE and I just started playing around with the DV tonight. I had to go to a standard 6SN7GT at first because of hum. Neither the 6F8G nor the 7N7 with their adapters would work without a hum in the left channel with the 5998. The sound was very good but the hum was definitely annoying. I had a 1950s Sylvania tall bottle lying around and once I put this tube in the amp was dead quiet.

 For the output tube, I started with two different TS 5998s and they accentuated the hum. Once I got the Sylvania 6SN7GT in the amp though tube 5998 #2 was quiet. However, I soon got a loud pop with this 5998, which sounded like the tube was arching, so out the 5998 came. I then settled on a Chatham / TS 6080 as the output tube and no further problems.

 After listening for an hour or so I decided to try something else. I used and adapter and a 9 pin tube called the 6GU7 .... which is a 6CG7/ 6FQ7 sub .... which in turn (the 6CG7) is often termed a 6SN7 in a 9 pin bottle. The Sylvania 6GU7 worked great .... more speed, better transparency and clarity and absolutely no hum. I find this tube to be extremely reliable, inately well matched side to side and almost always noise free.

 I was driving one of the old Yamaha Orthodynamic headphones .... the YH-1. The YH-1 is very low sensitivity and demands lots of power. But, the 150 ohm impedance of the YH-1 allows the amps 6080 to develope more than enough power. The bane of these old orthodynamics is the lack of bass damping. But, I am finding with amps that can develope high power (like this DV or the SP Extreme can into this Orthodynamics 150 ohm impedance) can control the bass quite well. I definitely like this amp better than the Woo 3 I owned. In fact, I like this amp better than the Woo 6 I owned with these Orthos or the Senn 600 .... so far.


----------



## Skylab

Interesting stuff. My 336SE also sometimes hums, also in the left channel, with some 6SN7's. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. For example, it hummed recently with one of a identical pair of 6F8G's, and not the other! I know other 336SE owners have had the same issue. I'm guessing the 336SE, like the 336i before it, probably needs to have the "Fitz Hum Mod" performed to alleviate this issue, although I thought I had read that the 336SE actually had this mod incorporated as a part of what made it the "SE".

 With no-hum tubes, the 336SE is a very nice amp for the money, I agree.


----------



## Ash

Hi Guys,
 This my first foray into the tube world... I just purchased a DV 336SE to power my 701s and while I await its arrival, can someone suggest a basic set of tubes that wont cost a fortune, I can order for a good start to my tuberolling adventure? I would appreciate a link if possible too... I am reading the 2 tube rolling threads to familiarize myself with the usual suspects.
 Thanks!


----------



## Skylab

A basic set of tubes would be an RCA 6AS7G, generally less than $10, and a decent RCA, Sylvania, or Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - should be less than $20. You can get these at Antique Electronic Supply


----------



## ElephantTLK

What do you think of Tung-Sol 6550 tube? Is this to be used as back tube? I am new with tube amps so i need some information. I can buy 6550 but its difficult to find 5998 over here. So will this combination work well?

 Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB & Tung-Sol 6550 Electron Tube


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ElephantTLK* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you think of Tung-Sol 6550 tube? Is this to be used as back tube? I am new with tube amps so i need some information. I can buy 6550 but its difficult to find 5998 over here. So will this combination work well?

 Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB & Tung-Sol 6550 Electron Tube_

 

The 6550 is a completely different tube and absolutely WILL NOT work. The 6550 is a power pentode while the 6AS7/5998 is a dual triode.


----------



## ElephantTLK

Thank you! So i will go and search for 6AS7/5998 tubes. But Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB is good choice for front tube?


----------



## Tridacnid

There is the 6520, which I'm using in my amp. 

 I really like my NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, so yes, that would probably be a good front tube, IMHO.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ElephantTLK* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you! So i will go and search for 6AS7/5998 tubes. But Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB is good choice for front tube?_

 

Two things:

 1. There is a "reissue" Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, which is a current production Russian tube. Stay away from these.

 2. Vintage Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB's tend to be quite good, yes, although there are different variants.


----------



## Spareribs

Can the 6AS7 be replaced with a 6080 tube for the Darkvoice?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can the 6AS7 be replaced with a 6080 tube for the Darkvoice?_

 

Absolutely!


----------



## Spareribs

Thanks brotha


----------



## Ash

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A basic set of tubes would be an RCA 6AS7G, generally less than $10, and a decent RCA, Sylvania, or Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - should be less than $20. You can get these at Antique Electronic Supply_

 

Thanks Sky...
 I need one of each right?


----------



## Skylab

Right, you would need one of each.

 If you call them on the phone, they will tell you exactly what they have available.


----------



## Ash

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right, you would need one of each.

 If you call them on the phone, they will tell you exactly what they have available._

 

Thanks, I will have to call them I guess, because I couldnt find either of these tubes by myself either on this site or tubedepot. I also get confused with all the jargon - NOS/russian/svoteks so on and so forth.
 If somebody can find these complementary tubes here or somewhere else please let me know...


----------



## Ash

Is this an acceptable pair?

Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
 and 
Russian 6H13C / 6AS7G

 There are so many options....


----------



## DoubleEs

Just want to say my TS-5998 have arrived and I'm liking it very much. I was using a 1965 Svetlana bought off ebay and thought they sounded quite good, it was certainly better than the non-NOS RCA 6AS7G I was using before.

 But the TS is just something else, the difference is like 'night and day' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 The bass is amazing, tight, control and there's lots of it


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ash* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this an acceptable pair?

Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
 and 
Russian 6H13C / 6AS7G

 There are so many options....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No. I wouldn't buy either of those. PM me and I will help.


----------



## 928GTS

I'm not so sure....I'd say see if you can pick up a 6H13C on eBay a bit cheaper. I've played around with the Soviet era tubes quite a bit and I'm always surprised with what I hear.


----------



## Skylab

The 6H13C isn't a bad tube but what you want are Svetlana's if you;re going to go that route, and I think the RCA 6AS7G is better. And those re-issued Tung-Sol's are NOT good sounding.


----------



## 928GTS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 6H13C isn't a bad tube but what you want are Svetlana's if you;re going to go that route, and I think the RCA 6AS7G is better. And those re-issued Tung-Sol's are NOT good sounding._

 

Man I hear so many conflicting things about the new reissues of the Tung Sol & Mullard line. I'm beginning to think that opinions and actual quality of the tube vary on a tube by tube basis. A lot of people say the Tung Sol 12AX7 is good,etc,etc. You wonder if they're atleast built with old Tung Sol/Mullard tooling. Crazy stuff,man.


----------



## Skylab

Re-issued/current production 6SN7's are amont the worst of the currently made tubes, IMO, when compared to the vintage tubes.


----------



## DoubleEs

Anyone know if TS made 5998s for IBM?


----------



## Skylab

They may well have. All 5998's were Tung-Sol made, and they did rebrand them for people.

 Also just a reminder that the GE-made 5998A is *not* the same tube as the 5998. It will work in the same applications, but has a plate structure much more like a 6AS7G and does not sound as good (IMO) as a "real" 5998.


----------



## DoubleEs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They may well have. All 5998's were Tung-Sol made, and they did rebrand them for people._

 

Does this mean that regardless of brand, if a tube says 5998 on it, chances are that it's a genuine TS-5998?

 Great, I took a chance and bought the IBM 5998 in the FS Forum. The pictures posted on there does look like a TS-5998


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoubleEs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean that regardless of brand, if a tube says 5998 on it, chances are that it's a genuine TS-5998?
_

 

Yes, that is what it means


----------



## DoubleEs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, that is what it means 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Cheers Sky, now I have a spare one


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. I wouldn't buy either of those. PM me and I will help._

 

I got abit confused here too. I was just about to get the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB reissue on ebay like Ash was.
 I currently have one 6AS7G RCA JAN Black Plates (which i am happy with). I am curious about changing my 6SN7GTB GE 1961 to a tung sol since you guys seem to like it alot. Can you please give me an example of what is the correct one to purchase?

 I think the 6SN7GTB GE 1961 might be bloating the sound too much for my DT 770/80 so i want to try some alternatives. It is much better than the stock 6SN7 on the 336se.

 BTW do you guys wait for the amps to cool down completely before you change tubes or do you just turn them off and swap? You probably wait for the tubes to cool of course.

 Thank you


----------



## Skylab

There are lots of variants of Tung-Sol 6SN7's, from the uber-expensive 6SN7GT black glass round plate, to tubes like the below, which are nice and generally reasonably priced (not vouching for this ebay seller at all this is just an example
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




PAIR OF TUNG SOL 6SN7 GTB AUDIO VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 370139121519 end time Jan-10-09 11:00:00 PST)

 Here is an example of what you do NOT want (anything that says re-issue):

Tung Sol 6SN7 6SN7GTB pre-amp tubes, Reissue, NEW !!! - eBay (item 120343808057 end time Jan-31-09 10:40:28 PST)


----------



## thebathingape

This helps a lot. Thank you very much!


----------



## Ash

I got my amp from Fang on Friday. The packaging wasnt the most professional that I have seen but no visible damage to the 336SE. 
 The Tubes that came with the amp looked and sounded horrible. They were not even sitting in the socket too well... In addition and to my dismay - I heard a clear/annoying hum+static in the background that would stay audible even with the music running 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Any way thanks to SKYLAB - I had a NOS Sylvania tube set - one 6AS7G and one 6SN7GTB on hand. After making the change - the hum was gone... total silence without the music; the music started flowing with a significant addition of bass to my AKG 701s. 

 A couple of questions:
 1. I am running the DV336 thru the ZERO - which setting should the ZERO be on - should the Preamp button be engaged or not?
 2. How long of a break-in do I need to run this amp thru?


----------



## Skylab

Ash, I am glad you got those tubes right away - as you found, the stock tubes that come with the 336SE are BAD. If anyone out there is using this amp with stock tubes - STOP! The kind of tubes I sold Ash were not expensive, are not that hard to get, and make a HUGE difference!

 Ash, I'd break in for 100 hours for best performance, but when I say break in - in this case just listen to it a lot, with the understanding that in 100 hours it should sound better. No point in burning up 100 hours of tube time since the tubes are already quiet.


----------



## Ash

Thanks Sky!

 I did want to ask you guys if the cable that ships with it has this weird angled plug. I had to look for a spare power cable at 4am in the morning. I wonder is the wrong cable was shipped to me.
 I do need a recommendations for a power cable. If anyone knows a reasonably priced, but good quality power cable... please let me know. I need like 2 or 3 for different things.


----------



## Skylab

Gee, I don't remember what power cord mine came with, sorry.


----------



## 928GTS

If you want a good cheap start try the Jellyfish power cable. I believe its something around $30.


----------



## Ash

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *928GTS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want a good cheap start try the Jellyfish power cable. I believe its something around $30._

 

Is this the one you are referring to - Tube Audio Design ?

 Is looks like a good deal... except it it only available in 6-ft lengths!


----------



## ElephantTLK

Can someone recommend me good pair of tubes from this site? Tubesworld - Top products, top service, top packaging, top princing!

 I cant find Tung-Sol 5998 tube here in EU. Also are new Tung-Sol 6SL7GTB tubes good or not?


----------



## Skylab

No - that site does not seem to have 6SN7's - and you cannot use a 6SL7 instead in this amp. They do have 6AS7G's but they are expensive. Better to order from someone like tubesandmore.com and pay the shipping.


----------



## ElephantTLK

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No - that site does not seem to have 6SN7's - and you cannot use a 6SL7 instead in this amp. They do have 6AS7G's but they are expensive. Better to order from someone like tubesandmore.com and pay the shipping._

 

Thanks for info.


----------



## StevenTam

I have listened the original tubes for 3months and I am totally unsatisfied now.
 which pair of tubes are good with Denon D2000 under $100?

 My Setup:
 PC(USB)->DACMagic->DarkVoice 336SE->Denon D2000

 Thank you for giving any suggustions.


----------



## Skylab

For driving Denons I definitely recommend finding a Tung-Sol 5998 for the (rear) power tube. And try am RCA Gray-glass 6SN7GT or Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT for the driver tube.


----------



## StevenTam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For driving Denons I definitely recommend finding a Tung-Sol 5998 for the (rear) power tube. And try am RCA Gray-glass 6SN7GT or Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT for the driver tube._

 

Thank you very much.
 How about the sound after the tube rolling.
 Is it good for listening blues?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StevenTam* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have listened the original tubes for 3months and I am totally unsatisfied now.
 which pair of tubes are good with Denon D2000 under $100?

 My Setup:
 PC(USB)->DACMagic->DarkVoice 336SE->Denon D2000

 Thank you for giving any suggustions._

 

People at the 11/1/08 Colorado head-fi meet listened to a variety of headphones on my DV336i with the following tubes, and liked them with D2000, D7000, HD600 and Edition 9 = Tung Sol 5998 ($40 new) and JAN CRC RCA 5692 ($50-60 used). 

 The 5692 helps fill in the D2000 mids, while an RCA grey glass VT231 ($40-80) would be another good choice while also a little brighter sounding. Also, in some cases the stock D2000 treble can be a little edgy and the 5692 smoothes that out (and I like it with Grado too). With HD600 I prefer a Sylvania VT231 or Sylvania "Bad Boy" in front, at which point the 336i rivals amps 2x the cost (but only with HD600).

 If you think the bass needs to be tamed a little because you haven't re-cabled or modded the D2000, consider the Raytheon 6080 for the rear ($15-30). The Raytheon 6080 with the 5692 sounded a lot like my upgraded SS Basso D1 with AD797 opamps/AD8397 buffers. The JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G ($30) will fall between the Raytheon and Tung Sol as far as bass quantity, but I think the 5998 quality is a little better.

 Another option that you didn't ask for is to get an amp with better low impedance/high current capability, like the $299 EF1 (on sale), and sell the DV336i to recoupe most of the funds. That will be better with D2000, Grado and Ultrasone, but it is not as open and airy with 300 ohm HD600 as the 336i.

 I'd love to hear what Skylab recommends, although he was using his with D5000 which have fuller mids than the D2000 (at the expense of too much bass last time I listened to a D5000).

 [edit - how did I miss page 7 with Skylab's reply this am?]


----------



## paara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For driving Denons I definitely recommend finding a Tung-Sol 5998 for the (rear) power tube. And try am RCA Gray-glass 6SN7GT or Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT for the driver tube._

 

Do you struggle with any hum when you are using the gt tubes?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you struggle with any hum when you are using the gt tubes?_

 

Seems to be hit or miss, unless you do the Fitz Hum Mod.


----------



## StevenTam

Thank you for the detailed analysis.
 I have idea to get the right tube for my denon's now.


----------



## paara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems to be hit or miss, unless you do the Fitz Hum Mod._

 

Do you know if the Fitz hum mod degrade the sound in any way?
 And in his tread he modifies several things, but he has an older DV336.
 Could any of his other mods be performed in a 336se to improve sound quality? Or has the DarkVoice manufacture upgraded the components in the 336se compared th the THA336FM Fitz used.

Fitz mod (older DV336)

 Is it the 2 capacitators I marked that is added?


----------



## Skylab

I'm sorry I do not personally know the answer to your questions - hopefully someone else can answer. When I had a 336i, I did have the Fitz-mod done, but I did not do it myself. I have not had it done to my 336SE since the tubes I wanted to use in it work fine.


----------



## Fitz

There is no major difference between the 336, 336i, and 336se, just minor revisions and changes in the external appearance, so pretty much everything applicable on the early prototype version I had is still applicable to the current production ones.

 The hum mod is indeed the two capacitors marked in the picture, and it doesn't degrade the sound quality; the only other effect is a slight increase in gain, which might be a little annoying with low impedance / high sensitivity phones, since it uses a linear pot instead of an audio/log taper one for some stupid reason (maybe to make it "seem" louder and more powerful?).


----------



## paara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no major difference between the 336, 336i, and 336se, just minor revisions and changes in the external appearance, so pretty much everything applicable on the early prototype version I had is still applicable to the current production ones.

 The hum mod is indeed the two capacitors marked in the picture, and it doesn't degrade the sound quality; the only other effect is a slight increase in gain, which might be a little annoying with low impedance / high sensitivity phones, since it uses a linear pot instead of an audio/log taper one for some stupid reason (maybe to make it "seem" louder and more powerful?)._

 

Thank you for that reply 
 Very helpfull 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am gonne try some of the mods
 Which would be the most important?


----------



## n0ah

i'm new to this and am wondering if tubes themselves need burn in time? i'm planning on getting a 336se with upgrade tubes but would still like to hear the stock tubes just before i replace them. when i get the 336se burned in and give it my first listen, can i listen to a couple songs, turn it off, put in the new tubes and start listening immediately or is further burn in recommended?

 also can you recommend me some moderately priced tubes to go with a paradisea dac and hd650s with zero hum? i'm afraid to do any modding and would much rather limit my tube intake to ensure there's no noise issues.


----------



## Skylab

You can certainly listen to the stock tubes, but you need to let the amp fully cool down before switching tubes. I recommend at least 30 minutes. And yes, the replacement tubes might need some burn in to quiet down, especially if they are actually NOS.

 My experience with the 336SE is that for whatever reason the 6SN7GTB's (GTB specifically versus GT or GTA) don't ever seem to hum. The 6SN7GT are more hit or miss. There are excellent RCA, Sylvania, and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB's, among others. Make sure not to get a "re-issue" Tung-sol - these are current production Russian tubes and are not very good IMO.

 For the power tube the easiest to get and best place to start is the excellent RCA 6AS7G. Read back just a little and you'll see places you can get these.


----------



## n0ah

so if i end up getting the 336 before i get my new tubes, should i start burn in anyway or just wait for the new tubes before i start the process? i know it's been said to give it about 100 hours of break-in but i never understood if that's just the dac itself or for every different set of tubes used.


----------



## Skylab

Tubes don't need 100 hours break in - generally just a few hours is fine.


----------



## timreeves

Could anyone recommend me some tubes for my 336?

 Bored of the stock tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 currently using senny 650's, my pc as a transit and an m-audio audiophile USB as the soundcard.

 I'm looking for a very clean sound, lots of instrument seperation, prefer impact over warmth and plenty of detail in the top end as I'm still young and want to make the most of my ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks

 Tim


----------



## Froex

Hello,

 I'm new here! I just received DV336SE two weeks ago. I listened to it a couple times with the chinese tubes. Very alive, but very, very harsh/sharp sounding. 
 So after two weeks I went to 'my technician', he has a whole stack of tubes, he doesn't know how many, all kind of types! First he got rid of most of all the standard crap resitors in the 336SE, and replaced them bij Allen Bradley's. And man what a difference makes that. Even with the standard tubes it sound very more relaxed, no sharpness anymore. A very cheap thing to do, and very quickly done!!
 Then after that, tuberolling time!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 The result is, that the best combi (that's so important!!, I think)for me, is 6SN7GTB Tungsol NOS black plates and the hammer 6080 WB Bendix!!!
 This combi makes the 336SE a total winner, in my opinion. 
 The Bendix for me is by far the most beautiful sounding tube I heard in the 336SE, everything is there, and the power. Now it even drives my Ultrasone Edition 9 (30 ohm; the 336SE was not really designed for headphones below about 300 ohms, if you measure it!!) with pace and bassslamm, wow! I'm a very happy man!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 best regards
 from the Netherlands, Europe


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Welcome to head-fi, and sorry about your wallet... More good threads for you.

Darkvoice 336 + 336i Tuberolling [ tubes ] - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## Skylab

The Bendix 6080 is a nice tube. They've come down in price recently, too, although not sure how long that will last.


----------



## Lollan

Can anyone provide assistance in troubleshooting tube hum? I'm currently running the following setup:

 Creative X-Fi Platinum (Bit-Matched playback) -> Beresford TC-7510 MKVI DAC -> Darkvoice THA336i (Raytheon 6SN7 and an RCA 6AS7) -> Senneheiser HD595 / Sennheiser HD650

 I hear the humming with both pairs of headphones.
 I do not hear the humming when I skip the amp and go straight to the Beresford DAC.

 I have literally not altered my setup in the past year or so and had no issues until now. I'd assume one of the tubes is hitting the end of it's life but it's kinda hard to diagnose when you don't have backup tubes to swap.

 Either way, it can't hurt to have some extra tubes laying around. Any recommendations for prog rock listening?

 Thanks in advance everyone.


----------



## Fitz

Have the 6SN7's cathode resistors been bypassed yet, or is the amp still stock?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have the 6SN7's cathode resistors been bypassed yet, or is the amp still stock?_

 

Right - the "Fitz" mod is needed in the 336i to make it work with all varieties of 6SN7 without hum. Without this, some 6SN7's will hum. Some won't.


----------



## Lollan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right - the "Fitz" mod is needed in the 336i to make it work with all varieties of 6SN7 without hum. Without this, some 6SN7's will hum. Some won't._

 

The underlying complaint however, being that it _didn't_ hum for over a year, which is bothering me. I have no experience with a soldering iron unfortunately, looks like I've got some practicing to do if I want to retain this hobby.


----------



## Skylab

Hmmmm...I missed that - so the SAME EXACT TUBES didn't hum for over a year, and now do? In that case a new set of tubes might help. I have found that the 336 seems to like the 6SN7GTB more than GT's. Try an *original* (not re-issue) tall-bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. Sounds very good in my 336SE.


----------



## thebathingape

I just swapped my RCA JAN 6AS7G with a Tung Sol 5998 1950s from tubeworld and the difference is huge (it was abit pricey but i was impatient 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Sound is much more open and airy. Much more detail. String instruments sound more like strings instead of thick rope being plucked.
 The lower end of the sound spectrum always seemed abit murky with the RCA JAN 6AS7G. It only cost me 10$ and was better than the stock on the 336se. 
 The Tung Sol 5998 takes it to another level though.

 I have a Sylvania 6SN7WGT on the way in the mail too so ill see how that compares to my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB which i am very very happy with.

 (i have never heard any other real hi-fi headphone setup than my own work in progress, so i am just really impressed where this is taking me!)

 Friday night after a few drinks ill probably order the SAA Equinox. Most of my headphone impulse purchases happen then


----------



## ttnl

please help a newbie out. I am confused with tubes on 336i. I have a few questions
 1. What do you call the front tube, and the back tube?
 2. Can I use these 2 tubes interchangeably?
 3. If "no" to number 2, should I replace the larger back tube? Because I have seen a lot of recommendation for the smaller front tube, but no recommendation for the back tube?
 4. I am using a Senn HD600. Please recommend me some good tubes in the range of $20-$30.

 I am so confused now. Please help. Thanks so much.


----------



## Skylab

The front tube is a 6SN7 - typically they are 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTB, although there are other variants.

 The Rear tube is the 6AS7, typically a 6AS7G. 6080 and 5998 are direct substitutes in this amp.

 A good place to start is an RCA pair - an RCA 6SN7GTB and a 6AS7G. These are fairly easy to get and not too expensive.


----------



## ttnl

Thank you Skylab. One more question please. Do I have to match the brand for both tubes? Will the amp break down if I use two different brands for 2 tubes? Thanks.


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do I have to match the brand for both tubes? Will the amp break down if I use two different brands for 2 tubes?_

 

No. No.


----------



## Skylab

Right, you can use different brands no problem - I often do. Just need to use the right type of tube.


----------



## thebathingape

My new front driver tube favourite is now Sylvania 6SN7WGT! Compared to the Tung Sol 6SN7-GTB tall bottle there is better separation of sounds, less "sparkly" sound signature. Not as bright. Everything seems more relaxed, and controlled at the same time.

 This is with Sennheiser HD 650. Not sure how they are with other phones (the DT 770 have been gathering dust since i got the HD650).


----------



## dunski

So I decided to switch it up a little bit last night and swapped the front CBS 6N7GTB to a toll brown-base Tung Sol I had bought from Skylab a while ago. It makes for a VERY nice combo with the Tung Sol 5998. It's a great match for my HD600s. 

 I feel like the sound has "tighten" up - especially the low end. The thing that struck me initially was how well the dynamic range is presented (on uncompressed flacs of course). I'm not really sure how a tube can change that but at least I feel like I get a much better impression of the dynamics of the vocals, instruments etc. I also feel like there is more 'air' around the instruments (especially on jazz recordings). 

 I'm not really sure if its the tube that can make such difference... Maybe I am just getting much more acquainted with my gear and I'm starting to notice the finer details. Either way, I'm loving it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 -Steve.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dunski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I decided to switch it up a little bit last night and swapped the front CBS 6N7GTB to a toll brown-base Tung Sol I had bought from Skylab a while ago. It makes for a VERY nice combo with the Tung Sol 5998. It's a great match for my HD600s. 

 I feel like the sound has "tighten" up - especially the low end. The thing that struck me initially was how well the dynamic range is presented (on uncompressed flacs of course). I'm not really sure how a tube can change that but at least I feel like I get a much better impression of the dynamics of the vocals, instruments etc. I also feel like there is more 'air' around the instruments (especially on jazz recordings). 

 I'm not really sure if its the tube that can make such difference... Maybe I am just getting much more acquainted with my gear and I'm starting to notice the finer details. Either way, I'm loving it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Steve._

 

The Tung Sol brown base up front works fairly well with the Tung Sol 5998, but if you mix it with a Raytheon 6080 it sounds a little too "solid state". I still preferred a Sylvania VT-231 or Sylvania "bad boy" with the TS5998, and saved a set for just in case I buy another DV336i someday.


----------



## shellylh

Last week I ordered a DV 336SE. I tried some Heinz & Kauffman 5998 and Tung Sol 6sn7gtb to start with (since the stock tubes should be pretty bad). Unfortunately, there was a HUGE amount of bum/buzz coming from mostly the left channel.... sigh. These tubes I have used a tiny bit (not many hours) in the SP Extreme and they are silent in that amp (at least with my K701). I was afraid that the DV336 was damaged so I decided to get out the stock tubes and try them out. Well, I did and the stock tubes are completely silent with the amp. Too bad the stock tubes sound like (add not so nice word here). I tried the Tung Sol 6sn7GTB + stock power tube and the hum/buzz has come back. I guess I will try rolling some more tubes in the amp until I find a couple that are silent (not the stock though.... no good). Is there a reason that the hum in the left channel would be so much louder than that of the right? 

 Ignoring the annoying humming, the 336 is a nice sounding amp for the price. Hopefully I will be able to find some quiet tubes and enjoy it.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Some times just running the tubes in the 336 for 10-50 hours will make the hum go away. You could also look into the "Fitz-Mod" to eliminate hum.


----------



## Skylab

Shellylh, the 336SE hums with some 6SN7's, and not with others. Sometimes the hum will go away, but my experience is that it usually it does not - the 336 either "likes" the particular 6SN7, or it doesn't. 

 As Larry/HA indicates above, there is a mod that can be done which eliminates this problem. I have an embarrassingly large number of 6SN7-type tubes, and so I just tried a few until I got one that worked well, and then was went with that, since I don't trust my soldering skills.

 In any case pop that 5998 back in there, since that should cause no issue and will improve the sound a ton over the stock power tube. But the chinese 6SN7-type tube that comes stock with the 336 is really awful, and so you'll want to do something else for sure.


----------



## shellylh

Ok, I will try some other 6sn7 first. I may try the Fitz hum mod at some point so I can roll in different tubes and not worry about the hum problem. However, I have never worked on a tube amp (only hybrid amp) and I am worried about lethal voltages being stored up in the caps. 

 How long do I have to wait before the charge in the caps drops down to a safe level and/or how can I drain the caps?


----------



## shellylh

Good news: I tried a Sylvania JAN CHS 6sn7WGT short bottle, brown base in the driver socket and the HK 5998 in the other socket and there is no hum (at least with the K701, I haven't tried any other cans yet)!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, these tubes are sooooooooo much better than the stock tubes. Everything sounds so much cleaner and smoother. I didn't listen much with the stock tubes (because they sounded so grainy) so I cannot say much more than that.


----------



## Skylab

Sweet! And that's a very nice tube to boot. If it doesn't hum with the K701, it shouldn't hum with your Senns, but your Denon and Grados, being very low impedance, might.

 And yeah, the stock tubes are awful. Glad you got better ones working!


----------



## shellylh

Yes, very sweet indeed! There seems to be a very very slight hum with the Denons but maybe it will vanish in a few hours.


----------



## thebathingape

The Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base is the driver tube i am most happy with (combined with TS 5998) up to now. If i want to go a step up from the Sylvania 6SN7WGT to another driver tube with a similar sound signature can anyone recommend anything?

 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

I like the Brimar CV1988 a lot.


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the Brimar CV1988 a lot._

 

Thank you ill check it out!


----------



## xchagg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thebathingape* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base is the driver tube i am most happy with (combined with TS 5998) up to now. If i want to go a step up from the Sylvania 6SN7WGT to another driver tube with a similar sound signature can anyone recommend anything?

 Thanks_

 

I used to use a brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGT before rolling in a Tung-Sol Round Plate. My one complaint with the Sylvania was that it could sound just a tiny bit 'etched' on the highs (which I seem to have become sensitized to after a nasal op). The TS-RP solved that problem, plus improving on microdetails. 

 This was/is with in combination with a TS 5998 in the rear.

 (IMO, the brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGT and the TS-RP have very similar sound signatures in the DV 336, and that the TS-RP is slightly better overall. If I had a warmer-sounding can than the Senn HD650s I 'might' roll in the Sylvania.)


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xchagg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I used to use a brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGT before rolling in a Tung-Sol Round Plate. My one complaint with the Sylvania was that it could sound just a tiny bit 'etched' on the highs (which I seem to have become sensitized to after a nasal op). The TS-RP solved that problem, plus improving on microdetails. 

 This was/is with in combination with a TS 5998 in the rear.

 (IMO, the brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGT and the TS-RP have very similar sound signatures in the DV 336, and that the TS-RP is slightly better overall. If I had a warmer-sounding can than the Senn HD650s I 'might' roll in the Sylvania.)_

 

Hi. I have a Tung Sol 6SN7-GTB Tall bottle as in the pic below. I find it has much better detail than the Sylvania, but to my ears it is just too bright. Is the TS-RP the same as the one i have in the pic?

 Off topic but i am also wondering if a different DAC would sound better with my DV than my Dacmagic.


----------



## Skylab

No, that tube is totally different. The Tung-Sol "Round Plate" has, well, round plates! Your tube has "triangular" plates. the RP tubes also are short-bottle and have black glass. And they tend to sell for about $350 per pair!

 Here is what they look like:

http://www.tubedepot.com/pa-6sn7gt-9.html


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, that tube is totally different. The Tung-Sol "Round Plate" has, well, round plates! Your tube has "triangular" plates. the RP tubes also are short-bottle and have black glass. And they tend to sell for about $350 per pair!

 Here is what they look like:

Tungsol 6SN7GT Round Plate_

 

Ahh thank you for the info Skylab. The tube business can be abit tricky for us noobs sometimes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I will see if i can find some deals on them.
 edit: oh yes they were pricey!


----------



## xchagg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, that tube is totally different. The Tung-Sol "Round Plate" has, well, round plates! Your tube has "triangular" plates. the RP tubes also are short-bottle and have black glass. And they tend to sell for about $350 per pair!

 Here is what they look like:

Tungsol 6SN7GT Round Plate_

 

I haven't seen a TS-RP with a rectangular mica, yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just round and oval micas. 

 Post on another thread with pictures I took of the TS-RPs I have:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5233499-post41.html


----------



## Skylab

Y'know, I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it! But I agree - first I have ever seen of that. But Tubedepot is super-legit - so there must be! All of my TS-RP's are oval mica. I have only even seen the round mica in pictures.


----------



## shellylh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good news: I tried a Sylvania JAN CHS 6sn7WGT short bottle, brown base in the driver socket and the HK 5998 in the other socket and there is no hum (at least with the K701, I haven't tried any other cans yet)!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, these tubes are sooooooooo much better than the stock tubes. Everything sounds so much cleaner and smoother. I didn't listen much with the stock tubes (because they sounded so grainy) so I cannot say much more than that._

 

Update: I tried some more 6sn7's (in addition to the 1 Tung Sol 6sn7GTB and Sylvania 6sn7WGT short bottle, brown base).

 2 RCA grey glass 6sn7gt
 1 Ken Rad clear bottle VT-231
 1 Ken Rad black base VT-231
 1 Tung Sol 6sn7WGTA tall bottle, brown base

 They all hum like crazy. So it is a good thing I found one that was quiet. As for the Sylvania 6sn7WGT short bottle, brown base tube, it sounds very sweet in the amp. It is nearly silent with all my cans (even Denon's and Audio Technica's). The amp is certainly starting to open up and sound very good. It is not at the level of the Extreme but certainly has a nice sound and is quite good for the money.

 I guess I may have to open up the amp and do the Fitz hum mod when I find some free time (haha).


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess I may have to open up the amp and do the Fitz hum mod when I find some free time (haha)._

 

Yeah, I keep saying that to myself, and I never get around to dealing with it, since I have a couple tubes which work perfectly and sound very good. Using a tall bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT at the moment, and it sounds great with the T-S 5998 as the power tube.


----------



## BIG POPPA

My GE and RCA 6080's came in today. So did the amp.... DOA
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When the replacement comes in it will have a lots of tubes to keep it company
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have a TS 6sn7gt, E-H gold 6sn7, a Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G , and a Sylvania 6sn7gtb coming, off the top of my head


----------



## shellylh

Sorry to hear about the amp.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah man that sucks. Bummer.


----------



## BIG POPPA

More tubes came in today, gets me more excited waiting for the replacement amp. As soon as the DOA gets to Fang in NY, I will get another one shipped to me. It was sent yesterday a couple hours after opening it. Slow morphine drip...................


----------



## bOUddha

Anybody tried a Telefunken 6080/6AS7W? I ended up with a NOS right after I sold my 336i...


----------



## Koolind

New into this business i bought a 336i which came with a Raytheon 6080WC powertube and a Brimar CV1988 with brown base which worked fine for me for about 2 weeks untill this thread made me buy more.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 A couple of days ago i recieved a RCA 6AS7G greyplate, a Ken-Rad V231 black glass, a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB "tall-glas" with short base.
 I had the expection that the Ken-Rad black glass and the RCA greyplate would be the clear favorite for me, but i was suprised to find out that it actually were the RCA greyplate and the Brimar that charmed me the most of the configurations.

 As far as i had understood, the Ken-Rad's should have great bass and bass quantity. However i am experiencing that the Brimar's actually have more impact and more bass quantity than the Ken-Rad and furthermore a really smooth and varm midrange that goes really well with my "harsh" headphones..
 I must however admit that the Tung-sol's and the Ken-rad has more detail and clarity, but the Brimar has hit the soft-spot at this time..

 Next up for me might be a Tung-sol 5998. However they arent that often for sale as far as i have seen, and they are a bit expensive.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Had a Tung sol 6sn7gtb come in today. By the time the 336SE shows up should have about 4 sets of tubes at least.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koolind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ but i was suprised to find out that it actually were the RCA greyplate and the Brimar that charmed me the most of the configurations._

 

Actually that does not surprise me at all! The RCA 6AS7G is a very nice tube, and I like it better than any 6080 I have ever heard. And the Brimar CV1988 is a GREAT tube.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Dang it Skylab, I thought I was done for a little while buying more tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Ha! Not likely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I use the Brimar CV1988 in my MPX3 - great tubes. I prefer them even over the Tung-Sol Round Plate.


----------



## shellylh

Skylab: 

 Which CV1988 are you talking about (or are they all very good)? 

















 Also, did anyone else ever make CV1988? For example, is this made by Brimar? It looks similar to the above pictures but not exactly. 

2Pcs. NOS CV1988 6SN7GTY = 6SN7GT 5692 (CV181) - eBay (item 290303213137 end time Apr-14-09 19:04:31 PDT)


----------



## Koolind

My CV1988's looks like the ones at the first picture, but with brown base (they might also be a bit brown at the picture though?)
 They have the same white printing and black glass and are rather bass-heavy with sweet mids..


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2Pcs. NOS CV1988 6SN7GTY = 6SN7GT 5692 (CV181) - eBay (item 290303213137 end time Apr-14-09 19:04:31 PDT)_

 

Those would seem to be '72 STC/Brimars. You can decode the markings on the CVs with the help of the CV valves page.

 Overall, one would expect the designs to change over the years, at least in details.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koolind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My CV1988's looks like the ones at the first picture, but with brown base (they might also be a bit brown at the picture though?)
 They have the same white printing and black glass and are rather bass-heavy with sweet mids.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Same here - mine are identical to the first ones, but brown base. Oh, those mids


----------



## Koolind

Skylab - I see that you also have a pair of K340's ?.. Do you ever use them, and do you have any tube-preferences for using them with the 336?


----------



## Skylab

I don't use them with the DV336 - it's not the best match of all of the amps I have. I tend to use them with the Ming-Da, which is 6BQ5/EL-84 based. 

 I have used them briefly with the 336SE and it sounded pretty good with the tubes I have in it currently.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Won a Tung Sol 6080 last night around 10 pm and I find it in my mailbox today in a ziplock bag.Haven't had anything delivered in a ziplock bag since college
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So glad my mailman is used all my purchases. We have been talking tubes this last week.


----------



## BIG POPPA

OK, Anything by Electro-Harmonix is like ........ Skylab was right on this. Anyway the hum is very noticeabe. Even after replacing the IEC with Furutech FI-03 Gold IEC Inlet & Fuse Holder by Revolution Power and a ISOCLEAN POWER Fuse - Small 5x20mm by Revolution Power I like tweeking like anyone else, but this is a little annoying to me.


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway the hum is very noticeabe._

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/dv-...tz-mod-353079/


----------



## Skylab

That is a good idea w/r/t hum, but it won't make the E-H 6SN7 sound good


----------



## BIG POPPA

I like the CBS Hytron 6sn7gta/ RCA 6080 combo at the moment. I have some Sylvania 6sn7's coming in a few days to play with.


----------



## Koolind

Added a Tung-sol 5998, a RCA 6as7g black plate and a Dumont-branded Tung-sol 6sn7gt "mouse ear"..
 The 5998 sounds good with great bass impact and bass quantity. However i think that the RCA's have better mids in general.. I cant hear much difference between the grey plates and the black plates RCA though. One has top getter, the other bottom getter.
 The mouse ear sounds good though.. But it's humming.. I might have to do the fitz-mod since i have both the mouse ear and the ken-rad V231 black glass that hums.. The sound though in both tubes are great..


----------



## shellylh

I bought a pair of RCA grey glass VT-231 for my WA5 LE. I decided to try the in the DV 336SE to see how they sound and if they would hum. In fact, neither of them hum (and of course they sound great)! Just thought I would let others know in case they came across a good buy on one. On the other hand, though, the RCA grey glass 6sn7gt that I used to have but sold with my SP amp, did hum.


----------



## Skylab

I finally got around to trying an ECC32 in the 336SE. I took my 5998 *out* first though, and put a 6AS7G in, because it seems to me that asking the 336 to provide both the extra current a 5998 demands AND the extra current an ECC21 demands at the same time isn't a good idea.

 So with a Tung-Sol 6AS7G and a Mullard ECC32, the DV336SE sounds PHENOMENAL. No doubt better than with any 6SN7 I have used in it. Yes, it seems folly to use a $200 tube in a $400 amp in some ways, but it sure sounds nice


----------



## BobinNJ

Hi all, I just started dipping my toe in the tube pond. I ordered a DV 336SE from Head Direct; which will be my first tube equipment . Finding the discussion very interesting, but a bit confusing as well. Should I start looking for replacement tubes now, or run the stock tubes till the unit has had it's break in time? Actually, does the amp have a break in time? Where's a good place to shop for new tubes? I know it's been asked, but since I'm such a noob, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.


----------



## Skylab

Two good places to get an affordable set of tubes are Antique Electronic Supply and Vacuum Tubes Radio Tubes - 5,000 different tubes in stock - Over 10 million tubes! - reasonable prices, and you can get NOS tubes that will definitely outperform the stock tubes for not too much money.


----------



## BobinNJ

OK, got my 336SE yesterday. Ordered on Wed. afternoon, received East Coast USA on Mon. Damn. 1st impressions, good build quality, feels solid. Dead silent, no hum. The sound has gotten progressively better, but still not what I was hoping for. I can't wait till I get some additional tubes to roll. Any advise on tube combos for Grado 325s?
 Thanks


----------



## Ash

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BobinNJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, got my 336SE yesterday. Ordered on Wed. afternoon, received East Coast USA on Mon. Damn. 1st impressions, good build quality, feels solid. Dead silent, no hum. The sound has gotten progressively better, but still not what I was hoping for. I can't wait till I get some additional tubes to roll. Any advise on tube combos for Grado 325s?
 Thanks_

 

Congratulations on the new acquisition!
 There is a night and day difference that you will notice after you get some decent tubes for this unit (if u havent already).
 Skylab is more versed in giving the appropriate tube advise.


----------



## Skylab

For Grados go with a 5998 for sure as the power tube - it will handle lower impedance cans better.


----------



## darkvoice2003

The 336classic is better.
 This edition of the 336 sees the case being streamlined. The case is now slightly less tall and features a very stylish chrome reflection plate. This beautiful chrome feature really highlights and reflects the warm glow of the tubes. 

 The beauty of the 336 Classic is more than skin deep. The slightly revised circuitry and new ASC film capacitors really do offer a slight increase in sonic resolution compared to previous 336 editions.

 This version also does away with the front toggle type power switch in favor of a much more discrete power switch on the rear panel.

 Build quality is absolutely first rate. Each amplifier is hand built and tested.

 Using Point to point wiring, the signal path is kept as clean as possible.

 High quality components are used throughout. 

 Really suits Sennheiser HD600, HD650 and other high impendance headphones.

 Also suits AKG headphones very well..


----------



## koven

^ any pictures of the classic vs se?


----------



## boyier2008

336classic_Headphone amps_Boyier audio,Darkvoice is foreign agents,lafigaro,darkvoice 336 classic 337se 3322,figaro ampfiler,xindak,Headphone amps - Powered by ECShop


----------



## koven

thanks.. wow, that's beautiful... 

 ive heard this amp is really good w/ the sennheiser HD580/600... but does anyone know if it's an upgrade from the EF2 or how it compares w/ the EF1?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks.. wow, that's beautiful... 

 ive heard this amp is really good w/ the sennheiser HD580/600... but does anyone know if it's an upgrade from the EF2 or how it compares w/ the EF1?_

 

See my EF1 review (link is in my public profile "about me" where I talk about synergy with headphones and how the EF1 compares with the DV336i and upgraded tubes.

 I did think the 336i was slightly better with HD600, but the EF1 was better with everything else with a lower impedance yet still very decent with the HD600. I only compared the EF1 and EF2 with my HD600 and thought they sounded very similar, and I am happy with the EF2 even though the EF1 and 336i are gone.


----------



## kossavot

Hi,
 could you suggest me some not too expensive tubes (less than 30 or 40$) for DV 336SE and beyer dt 880 pro ? Do you know some good european tube store ?

 Thanks in advance
 kossa


----------



## MarkR7

Hey folks, I just got my new 336Classic delivered today via DHL, and have it fired up. It is driving my K701s. It looks pretty darn cool!

 I rolled in a T-S 5998 and a brown-base Syl 5692 and things are sounding quite nice, and that's with only a few hours on the amp. Sure it needs to open up some, and smooth out a bit, but this thing is really driving the K701s nicely. It had some hum, but after a half hour or so, the hum disappeared (with the 5692, that is). No hum with the stock tubes. This unit is very quiet too.

 How much time have you been seeing for the 336 amp to completely break-in?

 I'm anticipating good things ahead as it breaks in!

 Thanks to all who thought highly of this amp, and the suggestions for tubes!


----------



## KeeChoon

Anyone have issues with RCA VT-231 grey glass humming in their 336?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KeeChoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have issues with RCA VT-231 grey glass humming in their 336?_

 

I did, but after I put 15-20 hours on the tube, like most others, it got quiet.


----------



## Brewmaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KeeChoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have issues with RCA VT-231 grey glass humming in their 336?_

 

I'm going on memory here, but that one took a long time for the hum to go away. I'm thinking 30 plus hours to be completely silent.


----------



## KeeChoon

Ahh ok, thanks for the replies, will keep them burning longer


----------



## HeatFan12

No love at all....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 As of late, my DV has been getting no love...Recently received some new toys and my DV has been on the back burner...

 Woke up this morning and cranked her up with an ipod and FLAC files...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Chose two random tubes that I had not paired before- Svetlana 6H13C & Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGT.....







 What was I hearing? Beautiful music pumping out. The Svets don't get too much love around these parts because paired with the wrong driver the sound can be muffled, so it takes a bit of tweaking. But for me, with their prices not too steep, I love them...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The mids on this WGT are delicious. Imaging and bass extension, both awesome.....The 6H13C actually brings their tone out a bit and no clouding....And this was with a pair of Ultrasones that I usually pair with SS....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So many amps out there, but DV will always have a sweet spot for me....

 Good times.....


----------



## mattkosem

I won an ebay auction for a 336se last night ($250 shipped, 2010 model) and, after reading that the stock tubes are worthless and searching tirelessly for a good set of recommended tubes for a decent price, settled on a Sylvania 6sn7gtb (60s-70s) and a GE 6as7ga (both NOS).  Both tubes were estate sale acquisitions and were untested, but are new.  The Sylvania tube has a black base and yellow writing, and the GE has a black base and red writing.  Both are reportedly new, but should I have them tested anyways?
   
  It looked like the tubes that were recommended for Denon headphones were pretty expensive, so I'm hoping this set will at least be a decent start.  This is my first piece of all-tube gear.  I have a jolida hybrid amp but, unlike the varieties of tubes that this device uses, it uses 12ax7 tubes that have decent re-issues available so I have very little experience (aside from reading that doesn't apply to these varieties of tubes) on nos tubes.
   
  The seller also indicated in their listing that the 2010 model is improved and has no hum.  Anyone know if the "fitz mod" is incorporated into the newer models, or if the fix was something else?
   
  --Matt


----------



## mattkosem

Haven't received the amp yet, but the tubes have arrived.  The 6AS7GA is a week 52 tube from 1961 and the 6SN7GTB doesn't seem to have any date codes printed on it.  I'm keeping my eyes open for a Tung-Sol 5998, but they seem rare and expensive at this point.
   
  --Matt


----------



## mattkosem

I received my DV today.  The box says 110v, but it included a chinese power cable.  Is this common?  Is there any way to tell if I truly have a 110v unit?
   
  --Matt
   
  EDIT: I found a post indicating that they are all 220v at birth and that they are converted at the factory.  Figuring they just forgot to swap out the cable, I gave it a try on an old DAP and some crap headphones.  Low and behold it worked great.  One channel was nasty crackly for a minute or two, but it cleaned right up after some time.  I hear a mild hum in the background (as I see reported by many others as well).  I'm hoping it's going to go away with time with this one as well.
   
  I've just got it powered up with the stock chinese tubes at the moment, and I'm pretty impressed so far.  The sound is a bit muddy and it isn't quite as resolving as I'd hope, but it seems neat for my first piece of all tube gear.  In the spirit of tube rolling I ordered a couple of others to play with.  The new issue tubes in these varieties are not supposed to be very good, but I picked up a sovtek 6SNGT to listen to.  I also picked up a Sylvania 7236.  Cheers!
   
  EDIT 2: The hum ended up settling a bit on the stock tubes, but was still much worse on one channel than the other.  Swapping in the Sylvania 6SN7GTB resolved the issue immediately and cleaned up much of the muddiness.  A while later I swapped in the GE 6AS7GA and it was like a curtain was removed between my ears and the music.  Much more resolving!  Aside from the slightly rolled lows, that don't cause me much grief with the tracks that I generally play, I'm very satisfied.  I may give replacing the output caps a try at some point, but for only having had it on for a little over 4 hours so far I'm impressed.  Sweet sounds   My PPAv2 is at work, so I can't directly compare them, but I definitely prefer it to the beefed up cmoy that I had on my desk.


----------



## mattkosem

I received my Sylvania 7236, which was manufactured in '62, this afternoon along with the other Sovtek tube.  It's definitely much brighter than the GE 6AS7GA that I've been using since this weekend.  It seems a bit faster as well.  I'm really liking it so far.  I'm not sure what it means, but the whole chassis of the amp seems to be running much cooler with this tube when compared to the GE.  Haven't played with the Sovtek yet.  I may try it out later in the week or on the weekend.  Unlike other pictures that I've seen of the Sovtek tubes of this variety, this one is labeled OTK.  As far as I can tell, this indicates that it is a "highest quality" tube.  I see wildly variable reviews on this model of tube, but I'm willing to give it a try for the price 
   
  --Matt


----------



## mattkosem

The Sovtek tube is a no go on the stock Darkvoice from the look of it.  I get a bad hum with it in-place, no matter which tube I have in the 6AS7 slot.  The issue seems the worst with the 7236, is slightly less bad with the stock chinese tube, and is the least bad with the GE tube.  I suppose I might fitz mod at some point and try it again.  At the moment, I'm very satisfied with my current Sylvania 7236 and Sylvania 6SN7GTB combo.  They seem to provide a nice balance of warmth, speed, and clarity.  The 7236 seems to have a smaller soundstage than the GE 6AS7GA, but the GE tube is a little darker.  Both are hum free with the Sylvania tube up front.  I suppose some songs may be a bit better on one than the other.  The 7236 isn't bright enough to be fatiguing though.
   
  --Matt


----------



## pataburd

I usually have humming problems with Russian driver tubes, too.  The Fitz anti-hum mod should take care of it, though.
   
  The Svetlana 6H13C is probably my favorite rear tube: balanced, clean, smooth and detailed.


----------



## francoamerican

What does anybody know about these tubes?  Particularly my tung sol 6sn7gt?


----------



## voodoohao

[size=medium]I'm considering buying either a Darkvoice 336se with a Tungsol 5998 powertube and Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7GT or a Darkvoice 337 with JAN 5998 tubes, both would be around the same price. Anyone here knows which would be a better deal?​[/size]


----------



## Skylab

The 337 is a better amp for sure.  I owned both.  337 is more powerful, and sounds better overall.


----------



## voodoohao

alright thanks for the prompt reply! so just to be sure, in this case the 337 would be a better deal?  Even considering the fact that the 336SE would include the Sylvania and Tung Sol tubes


----------



## Skylab

Tung-sol 5998 tunes and "JAN" 5998 tubes are identical.  So all you are getting with the 336se is one (I assume used) Sylvania "Bad Boy" 6SN7GT.  figure it's value is about $50.  But the 337 needs TWO 5998's, which are going for about $30 used.  So the net difference is $20.  The 337 is easily worth $200 more, IMO.


----------



## voodoohao

okay sweet thanks  will be going to audition it soon hope it all works out well hahah


----------



## keph

do you think this will be a good combo for my new La Figaro 336c?
   
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8019403584
   
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8824865800
   
  pls help me out which TUBE will be the best for my HD650 & La Figaro 336c..
   
  or pick one from here
   
  6SN7
http://shop34495160.taobao.com/?order=&queryType=cat&browseType=grid&searchWord=6SN7&price1=&price2=
   
  6AS7
http://shop34495160.taobao.com/?order=&queryType=cat&browseType=grid&searchWord=6AS7&price1=&price2=
   
  pls help me pick out a combo..
   
  thanks alot
   
  Sorry Its All in CHINESE Characters..well im in China, Beijing


----------



## Skylab

For the 6AS7 I highly recommend this one:
   
  http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7987562844
   
  But the 6SN7 you linked also is a very nice tube.


----------



## keph

thx skylab..ur the best..


----------



## tszazados

*Greetings to all!*

 I just ordered my DV 336SE, and I'd like to buy some nice tubes. I am totally newcomer in this tube world yet and I got a custom offer from an ebay seller. (I have a Sennheiser HD650)

 Can you advice me which tube should I buy or not from this list, maybe none of them or all of them, please?
   
*So here is his offer:*
  
_1. Mullard 6080 - metal base, tested 114mA/114mA - 17 USD._
_2. Sylvania 6SN7GTB (coin base) - NIB in Original box - 16 USD_
_3. GE 6SN7 WGTA (brown base) - NIB in original box - 16 USD_
_4. Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA (brown base) - NOS NEVER USED - 18 USD_
_5. MELZ 6N8S metal base (holes) - NOS never used - 40 USD_
_6. MELZ 6N8S metal base - NOS - 24 USD_
_7. 6N8S Soviet black plate - NIB original box - 2 USD_
_8. 6N5S listed pair - 9 USD_
_9. 6N13S Svetlana - NOS tube - will give you for free._
_10. 6SN7GT RCA Grey glass - NOS Excellent tube - 18 USD._
_Also will add two good used sylvania 6SN7GTB tubes for experiments for free._
   
  Thank you in advance!


----------



## Skylab

Of that lot, I'd go for the Mullard 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7WGTA.


----------



## keph

so i bought the 1955 Emerson 6SN7-GTB and the 1972 RCA 6AS7 will arrive in 3 days...hehhe and soon im going to get the GEC A1834 and some NOS 6SN7..


----------



## tszazados

Dear Skylab, thank you for your advice! I will get these tubes then.
   
  But I'm still looking for nice and low/medium budget pairs for my future amp, need to read this topic completely.. I'd like to have a nice collection, to have a lot of combinations to try out and play with them.
   
  Actually I have already some goals collecting from this topic:
_Svetlana 6H13C + Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGT_
_Tung-Sol 6AS7G + Mullard ECC32_
_Sylvania 7236 + Sylvania 6SN7GTB _
_RCA Grey 6SN7 + Tung Sol 5998_
_6AS7G OR 5998, + 6SN7GT, or -GTB, or -GTA, or -WGT._


----------



## keph

The 1955 Emerson 6SN7-GTB and the 1972 RCA 6AS7 ARRIVED...so far just 30min of burning in...is much better than the stock chinese tube..
larger soundstage,deeper and tighter and more powerful bass.warm mids and clear highs.
i also get more details from it..usually i never heard the sound from the same song but now it all comes out..
  will update more and buy more tubes..GO TUBE !!


----------



## tszazados

Quote: 





keph said:


> The 1955 Emerson 6SN7-GTB and the 1972 RCA 6AS7 ARRIVED...so far just 30min of burning in...is much better than the stock chinese tube..
> larger soundstage,deeper and tighter and more powerful bass.warm mids and clear highs.
> i also get more details from it..usually i never heard the sound from the same song but now it all comes out..
> will update more and buy more tubes..GO TUBE !!


 

 My Darkvoice 336SE has arrived, too, I am so happy with it  At the moment I have only stock tubes. (I already ordered some tubes, I am expecting them in a week)
   
  I found a russian version of 6AS7G, I am curious is it similar to your RCA 6AS7 or not. In my country I found only this at the moment. Its quite cheap but perhaps not good quality.


----------



## tszazados

I found some tubes by chance.. I am wondering, can I use them with my DV 336SE?
  I dont want to destroy my brand new amp at the first day...
   
  So I found these (pairs):
  russian 5ц3с should be equal to 5U4G (big ones)
  6h8c --> exactly like this (small)
  jan chs 6sn7wgt sylvania - I can use I am sure 
   
  The big one has less legs (only 5) than the stock big one (6n5p)
  Can I replace it?
   
  I belive I can replace the 6N8P with the sylvania or with the 6H8C as well.
  I think its better to ask in the beginning.. 
   
  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Skylab

The 5U4G is a rectifier tube and absolutely CANNOT be used in the DV336SE. 
   
  The Russian equivalent of the 6AS7G is the 6N13S.  These are decent, but not great sounding, IMO. 
   
  The 6AS7 equivalents are 6080, 5998, 7236, and in UK A1834.


----------



## tszazados

Thanks again! Fortunately I didn't try it 
   
  But this SYLVANIA JAN CHS 6SN7WGT tube made a noticeable improvement mainly with the high parts, but generally as well.
  For the rear tube I'am still using the stock tube. So I'm counting on more improvement in the near future.. Also thinking to get a DAC from senzen., instead of asus xonar u1 portable sound card. I hope it has sense..
   
  I will post my impressions when my mullard 0680 and the others arrive.. !


----------



## ludespeed13

Does anyone have any experience with the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube? I picked one up out of curiosity and it seems to be the worst humming tube I've come across.  I'm hoping that some burn-in will settle it down.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





ludespeed13 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube? I picked one up out of curiosity and it seems to be the worst humming tube I've come across.  I'm hoping that some burn-in will settle it down.


 


  Yes - it's not a very good tube.  Any vintage/NOS 6SN7 will sound much, much better, even the relatively inexpensive RCA/GE/Sylvania 6SN7GTB's.


----------



## tszazados

Hi there! Has anybody tried this tube with DV 336SE? --> Lewis & Kaufman 6080
   
  And an another question: Are these tubes identical to Tung-Sol 5998? They are labeled Chatham 5998. 
  They should be the same in sounding. Thanks.
   
  update: these -->


 update: YES, they are identical, the same sounding. I read a lot of topics..


----------



## RJHD3

Just purchased a CBS 6AS7 (here) for my new 336SE.  I'm looking for a complimentary 6SN7 to replace the out-of-the-box-disappointing Chinese tubes and my AKG702 headphones.
   
  Suggestions?
   
  Also there's a local guy selling a Tung-Sol 5998 + Two 6DJ8 Amperex Holland's for $100 from his Woo amp.  I'm pretty sure the 6DJ8 won't substitute for the 6SN7, but a verification would be greatly appreciated before I go blow the cash. 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





rjhd3 said:


> Just purchased a CBS 6AS7 (here) for my new 336SE.  I'm looking for a complimentary 6SN7 to replace the out-of-the-box-disappointing Chinese tubes and my AKG702 headphones.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> ...


 

 I'm pretty sure the 6DJ8 wont work.  A 5692 would.  
   
  I think that my favorite combo for the 336i when I had one was the Sylvania VT-231 or RCA grey glass VT-231 + Tung Sol 5998.  With brighter headphones I would swap in a Hytron brown base 5692, and for bass heavy cans I would change the 5998 to a Raytheon 6080 which was not as warm and bassy.  Most of the time I didn't have to change the tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Just to echo HA's comment, you absolutely cannot use a 6DJ8 in the DV336SE.
   
  You might look for a tall-boy CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT - often very reasonably priced, and very good sounding.


----------



## RJHD3

Thanks Skylab.
   
  Advice taken (here). A matched set of CBS tube's seems like a simple way to enter the world of tube rolling.
   
  Given that most of the 5998's I see online are now in the $100+ range, I just bought the local seller's Tung Sol for $50, and will now start post-diving in a search for a complimentary tube.
   
  This should give me two great sets of tube's to play with out of the gate.
   
  BTW:  In general terms, with traditional HiFi I've always believed in the Linn System Heirarchy model.  Do the same general rules apply in the headphone world?  That is...is a better (any) outboard DAC for a PC source more impactful to the quality of sound than better tubes in the amplifier, which in turn should be thought of as more impactful than improved headphone cables?


----------



## RJHD3

After a minor scare, I've now been happily listening to the Tung Sol 5998 while I wait on the CBS tubes to arrive.  It is several orders of magnitude better than the stock tubes.  Out of the box I was incredibly unhappy with the Darkvoice, and really thought I'd made a mistake.  But the 5998 has addressed nearly all my complaints.  My one remaining concern is that the bottom octave is still pretty lacking.  I know that the K702 is not known for it's bass performance, but I was hoping to get a bit more balance than I have so far.
   
  Since I'll still need to replace the front stock tube, does anyone have suggestions for a great tube that compliments the 5998 that might also bring forward some of the bass without overly compromising the rest of the sound?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Try the CBS tube first, and then post what you think is lacking or needs to change, and then someone can post, "well such and such a tube will have more of this and less of that, so try X brand model Y"
   
  I don't have a 336i anymore, but I posted my favorite tubes on the previous page.  A source upgrade will be helpful once you have the stock tubes replaced.  The 336i didn't come with good tubes.  My WA6 came with much better stock tubes than the 336i, and it still improved with upgrades.


----------



## voodoohao

Would a Darkvoice 336SE with Tung Sol 5998 and Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes sound noticeably warmer than a Darkvoice 337 with Tung sol 5998 and JAN Philips 6SJ7WGT driver tubes? Thinking of downgrading but would prefer a slighter warmer sound, as from what I've read the DV337 sounds better than the 336 but I'm hoping not to lose too much of the tubey warmness


----------



## Skylab

In my opinion, the 336 SE would not sound warmer. And the 337 sounds better.


----------



## tubey

Hi guys, 
   
  This is my first time posting here, hope you guys can help me out. I own a Figaro 336 and recently I've bought a RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GTB off ebay. I've used them on my amp and this is what happens,
   
  1) Switched on the amp, and a "pop" sound can be heard on the right channel of my headphone. When I try to play songs, there is no sound on the left channel.
   
  2) I've decided to mix in my stock chinese tubes
  - *RCA 6AS7G +  6sn7 (stock*) - no "pop" and sound present in both channels.
  - *6as7g (stock) + RCA 6SN7GTB* - "pop" present, sound also present in both channels.
   
  Did I get a faulty RCA 6SN7GTB? Is the "pop" sound harmful to my headphones, or does using any of the tubes harm my amp? Your help is much appreciated.
   
  Many thanks.
  Many thanks.


----------



## tubey

Hi guys, 
   
  This is my first time posting here, hope you guys can help me out. I own a Figaro 336 and recently I've bought a RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GTB off ebay. I've used them on my amp and this is what happens,
   
  1) Switched on the amp, and a "pop" sound can be heard on the right channel of my headphone. When I try to play songs, there is no sound on the left channel.
   
  2) I've decided to mix in my stock chinese tubes
  - *RCA 6AS7G +  6sn7 (stock*) - no "pop" and sound present in both channels.
  - *6as7g (stock) + RCA 6SN7GTB* - "pop" present, sound also present in both channels.
   
  Did I get a faulty RCA 6SN7GTB? Is the "pop" sound harmful to my headphones, or does using any of the tubes harm my amp? Your help is much appreciated.
   
  Many thanks.
   
  Edit: Hi the weird thing is that it sometimes work with both my RCA tubes and sometimes doesn't (only left side no sound). Strange. Does anyone experienced the same thing as I do?


----------



## tubey

Finally solved the problem, turns out that the RCA 6SN7GTB tube doesn't sit nicely in the tube socket. I have to tilt the tube to the left, so that the tube pins can fully come in contact with the socket.


----------



## rontruong

hi everyone, just bought the la figaro 336c.  I'm really excited to receive it soon.  So I'm new to this tube rolling thing and I will be spending time to read this thread and the other to figure it out.  This 99 page thing is really daunting haha.  Anyways, are there any MUST get tubes, sorta like the standard typical good upgrade.
   
  If this helps, I like listening to electronic music and rock from 5-10 years ago and I will be using a dt880 250 ohm 2005 version.
   
  Any recommendations for the price ranges of
   
  <30 dollars
  30-50 dollars
  50-70 dollars
   
  for both tubes?
   
  THANK YOU EVERYONE!


----------



## Skylab

I would start with a basic tube set to replace the stock tubes that are not all that good.  Get an RCA 6AS7G and a Sylvania 6SN7WGT.  The combo is nice, and should not cost more than $60 total.  You might be best off buying tubes like this in the FS forums here on head-fi.


----------



## rontruong

thanks skylab! 
   
  I'm looking around the FS for those two tubes, would you recommend any of these other ones that I found on the forum besides the RCA 6AS7G and the Sylvania 6SN7WGT?  If other tubes that might pair good are cheap, I'll try to buy them too... otherwise I'll shoot for those 2 you  recommended 
   
  also what is a typical price w/o shipping for those each tube?
   
  seller 1
  Philips JAN 6SJ7WGT
  RCA 6AS7G
  Philips JAN 6080WC
  Tung-Sol 5998.
   
  seller 2
  Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base
 Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7W blk base, green lettering
 Sylvania JAN-CHS VT231 bottom getter
 Raytheon 6SN7WGT brown base
 Raytheon JAN-CRP-GT VT231
 Philco 6SN7GT bottom getter
   
   
  TY!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





rontruong said:


> thanks skylab!
> 
> I'm looking around the FS for those two tubes, would you recommend any of these other ones that I found on the forum besides the RCA 6AS7G and the Sylvania 6SN7WGT?  If other tubes that might pair good are cheap, I'll try to buy them too... otherwise I'll shoot for those 2 you  recommended
> 
> ...


 
   
  I would get the Tung Sol 5998 and the Sylvania Jan-CHS VT231 bottom getter, but that's just me.  It was fantastic on my old 336i with almost everything (IEM, Sennheiser, Denon, Ultrasone, ATH).  It was especially good with my HD600.
   
  That combo was slightly aggressive with my Grado RS-1 (but still fairly good with flat pads on the RS-1).  For the RS-1 I used to leave the 5998 in the back and switch the front tube to a Hytron 5692 brown-base.  With a SR-325i I would use the RCA 6AS7G and 5692.  
   
  I haven't tried any of the other tubes you mentioned with 336i, but I seem to recall my GE and Raytheon 6080 tubes sounded less warm and more neutral (less tubey), which worked better with my Darth Beyer (for the short time I had either pair).


----------



## rontruong

Looking around to buy a 6AS7G and i ran into a few options, which one would be better?
   

```
6AS7G RCA BLACK PLATES with "CLEAR TOP and BOTTOM GETTER": --------------------------------------------------------- 1 platinum tube $50) 6AS7G RCA black plates NOS 1946, very rugged version, taller bottle (Gm=4500-4600) (recommended, best single) 1 platinum tube $50) 6AS7G RCA "clear top" NOS rebranded Sylvania 1949 in green/black Sylvania box (Gm=4750-4800) (recommended, best single) CRYO-TREATED SINGLE TUBES: ------------------------- 1 Kuhl-Tube cryo tube $35) 6AS7G RCA gray plates like new 1963 (Gm=4300/4500) 1 Kuhl-Tube cryo tube $37) 6AS7G RCA gray plates like new 1963 (Gm=4500/4600)
```
   
  or
  http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-New-RCA-JAN-6AS7G-Power-Tube-1961-Vintage-/140537719998?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20b8b36cbe


----------



## Rawrbington

what exactly is the difference between the 336 336i and 336se?
  im considering one for my high imp cans. are they just small refreshes or do they sound different?
   
  nvm i found the answer i was looking for.  they are pretty much the same


----------



## cws5

Hey DV336ers,
   
  Happy to have just gotten a DV336se from a fellow head-fier. The sad thing is that FedEx dropped the box (which broke a 6AS7), and now, unbelievably, the right channel is dead and buzzing. I want to rule out a bad 6AS7 as the source of the dead channel problem, but given that one has been broken I've got only one remaining. (I've already tried two different 6SN7's, so swapping input tubes does not affect the problem.)
   
  I'm hoping that one of you with a big collection of DV336 output tubes might be willing to spare a crappy sounding but working tube and mail it to me. I'd happily pay you via paypal for postage and your time and something, of course, for the crappy sounding but working tube. Let me know.
   
  Best,
  cws5


----------



## ssoaos

Hi, I am a new 336C owner here. I have been using a LD MKIII for a couple years and I must say the Figaro does sound fuller.
   
  When I first powered on there was some hum. After couple of hours the hum went away. So I guess there is no need to do the FITZ mod immediately if you encounter hum issue with new tubes. It might go away.
   
  I put on a Sylvania 6SB7GTB and it sounds better. I am getting a RCA black plate and will try it soon.


----------



## kucyk

Hi,
  Which power tubes are better ? 6080/6AS7 or 6AS7G ?
  Im going to buy RCA 6080WC or Sylvania 6080WB or RCA 6AS7G or 6AS7GA General Electronic. I cant decide which one should i buy.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kucyk said:


> Hi,
> Which power tubes are better ? 6080/6AS7 or 6AS7G ?
> Im going to buy RCA 6080WC or Sylvania 6080WB or RCA 6AS7G or 6AS7GA General Electronic. I cant decide which one should i buy.


 

 RCA 6AS7G. That's my pick. An obvious one.


----------



## phandrew

I'm going to buy the 336SE very soon but i'm also interested in changing the tubes to something better but don't want to spend too much money figuring out which one is the best combo.
   
  So can people tell me what tube combo they found best with the 336SE?
   
  Thanks a lot in advance.


----------



## phandrew

Just bought the Darkvoice 336SE tube amp 
   
  Looking around for some 6AS7/6080 tubes as i just realised my dad actually has a large collection of 6SN7 tubes for this Leak tube amp. I'll also be changing the coupling to paper oil caps later.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I liked the Tung Sol 5998 in the rear with the RCA grey glass 6SN7 in front (or Sylvania Bad Boy).  Sold the amp ages ago for my maxed WA6, which is a good step up, but the 336i was still pretty darn good for the price.


----------



## phandrew

6AS7, 6080, 5998, ECC32 etc can all be used on the back socket but does it require any changes on the circuit?


----------



## BIG POPPA

I did just order a GEC 2523 should do mighty fine in the 336. I sold the 336se but my woo3+modified uses the same power tube.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





phandrew said:


> 6AS7, 6080, 5998, ECC32 etc can all be used on the back socket but does it require any changes on the circuit?


 

 ECC32 won't do, otherwise no changes required. Also 6520, ECC230, 6N13S, 421A, ...
   
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> I did just order a GEC 2523 should do mighty fine in the 336. I sold the 336se but my woo3+modified uses the same power tube.


 

 Please don't drop the CV part. GEC CV2523 = GEC A1834 = GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## phandrew

Thanks for that Oskari. Just a curious question which tube model for the rectifier tube did you find best?


----------



## Oskari

I'm a big fan of RCA and GEC 6AS7Gs.
   
  BTW, it's not a rectifier. It's the power output tube (in this amp).


----------



## BIG POPPA

oops, most peeps I hang with just use the numbers. Forgot where I was at.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





oskari said:


> Please don't drop the CV part. GEC CV2523 = GEC A1834 = GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## phandrew

Received my 336SE today but the tubes that were provided had rust in them and only 1 channel worked  So now i have to wait for my 6as7 tubes to arrive.
   
  Will ask the seller to give me a partial refund or replace the tubes. Not sure which one at this stage but most likely partial refund.


----------



## phandrew

Unrelated to tubes but related to 336SE.
   
  Does anyone know what the ratings are for the coupling caps?
   
  I want to change from 6 to 2 paper oil cap but i'm not sure what the voltage and uF is on the red caps.


----------



## phandrew

Can the DV use QA2408 tubes to replace 6sn7 tubes?


----------



## mrAdrian

Hey tube masters,
   
  Just got my 336 from a quitting friend  Now the question is, what are these tubes?
   

   
  Both are the 6sn7 but upon reading I saw so much tube names, even in the same brand... and I got confused 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Also can someone post a picture of the RCA 6080? Do they have any variants? Mine have a silver base, and reads RCA Radiotron Electron Tube. There are also smaller print saying 'Made in u.s.a. 56-30'. Has a chrome top - silvery/mirror top that is not so even..? On the glass it says 6080 and nothing else.


----------



## Oskari

Unfortunately this thread doesn't get much love nowadays. You might want to try the 6SN7 Tube Addicts thread regarding those 6SN7GTs.
   
  Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Now the question is, what are these tubes?


 
   
  I'm not a specialist in different versions of these US tubes but I think that they are what they claim to be, i.e. RCA and Sylvania tubes. Apparently flat-plate Sylvania 6SN7GTs exist although there are other more common types.
   
   Quote:


mradrian said:


> Also can someone post a picture of the RCA 6080?


 

  Are yours like the RCAs here http://www.geocities.jp/radiomann/HomePageVT/Audio_US_Triode.html#6080?
   
  In general, good photos of the tubes including all the markings on them are essential when trying to identify them.


----------



## mrAdrian

Best I can take...


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Hello.
  Someone met tube Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" with yellow marking for base? Is very interesting to see her photo.


----------



## Lorspeaker




----------



## doco

so is the DV 336SE OTL tube amp still a worthy option in this day and age compared to what else is out there? i can get it for $246.16 from a group buy. i plan to use it with my HD650. this will be my first real OTL tube amp aside from the Aune T1.


----------



## Lorspeaker

great combo to my ears... the dv336se + hd650. 
  just roll in diff tubes for slightly diff sound,  FUN !
   
  there is a La Figaro version/upgrade?, u seen that one? 
  http://www.amazon.com/La-Figaro-Head-AMP-PreAMP-amplifier/dp/B00CF9JIW0
   
  might be worth the exxtrabucks.


----------



## doco

yeah i saw a few posts about that amp while searching through head-fi. not sure if it's worth the extra $63 to $70 though when i add in getting tubes.


----------



## Lorspeaker

if u are just holding on to it for a year or two, then maybe the cheaper the better...
  but if u are bend on keeping it for your grandchildren, the LaFig i supposed.
  ( i paid usd150 for mine...a 2ndhand set in v good cond )


----------



## RedBull

I really missed my Darvoice 337. Seems not many people using it anymore.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i just had a very powerful sonic treat on the LCD2+toxic silver / Darkvoice 336se tungsol 5998/ audiogdNFB10 on high gain/ cabledyne powercords setup...
  v spatial, scintillating performance by Seiji Ozawa during his fiery younger days !! ( get this cd !)


----------



## Lorspeaker

" I SHALL SAY THIS ONLY VYANCE...."
   
  If u are NOT buying the HE-6, this is absolutely the most gorgeous inexpensive tube amp u ever  need.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  but of cos we hav WANTssss$$$.


----------



## RedBull

Guys, for those who have heard both, not in meet condition. How do you think of the signature compared to the now 'in-(trend)' amp Crack with Speedball?


----------



## doco

i'm looking into a 6SN7 tube to match with a JAN 6AS7 G Tube RCA NOS 1967 6AS7G (red text) i bought earlier. i'm going to pair it with the hd650. these are the choices i came across after reading this thread and the previous back and forth. can someone give a second input?
   
  JAN CHS Sylvania 6Sn7 WGTA
  JAN CHS Sylvania 6SN7 WGT
  Sylvania 6SN7GTB Tube-TALL Bottle-Chrome Top-Matched Plates (green text)
  NOS RCA USA 6SN7GT Flat Black Plate Vacuum Tube
  NOS NIB RCA USA 6SN7GT Flat Black Plate Smoked Vacuum Tube
  RCA 6SN7GT RADIO AMP TUBES VALVES GREY GLASS BLACK PLATES 6SN7
   
  or any other recommendations


----------



## StalkerAssassin

doco said:


> i'm looking into a 6SN7 tube to match with a JAN 6AS7 G Tube RCA NOS 1967 6AS7G (red text) i bought earlier. i'm going to pair it with the hd650.



For the *HD 650*, I recommend:
- *Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy"*
- *RCA 6SN7GT "Smoked Glass"*


----------



## doco

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> For the *HD 650*, I recommend:
> - *Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy"*
> - *RCA 6SN7GT "Smoked Glass"*


 
  is this from your own experience? i see you own an hd650 and the la figaro 336c which is almost the same as the DV 336SE. i'm guessing it's because the HD650 is a laid back headphone and a pair of RCA tubes on this OTL amp will give the aggressiveness it needs?


----------



## mrAdrian

I will vote for the mouse ears from tung sol instead of the RCA although they are good too.
   
  But Sylvania sounds so smooth and sweet on my setup <3


----------



## Lorspeaker

what is the sound like on the mouse ear vs the slyvania...i am curious..cos those ears are cuteeeeeeeee.
  i love the slyvania btw.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

doco said:


> is this from your own experience?



Yes.


> i see you own an hd650 and the la figaro 336c which is almost the same as the DV 336SE.



La figaro 336c improved version DV 336SE.


> i'm guessing it's because the HD650 is a laid back headphone and a pair of RCA tubes on this OTL amp will give the aggressiveness it needs?



If you want aggressive sound, then look in the direction of headphones *Denon*, but for them DV 336SE not suitable.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





lorspeaker said:


> what is the sound like on the mouse ear vs the slyvania...i am curious..cos those ears are cuteeeeeeeee.
> i love the slyvania btw.


 
   
  First let us calibrate our taste/hearing XD. What do you like about the Sylvania? To me they sound very smooth, lush midrange.
   
  The mouse ears are more solid-state-ish sounding. More linear, quicker and dryer relatively.
   
   
  Which is strictly in my opinion!


----------



## Lorspeaker

in that case i will pass over the mouse...


----------



## Circuitbender

Is it cool if I ask for recommendations? I'm not about to dig through 117 pages of comments... I'm basically just looking for the best-value cheap tubes for the 336SE. It's gonna be pushing an HD600. I really like the normal sound sig, but maybe it could use a little bit more top-end sparkle. Any suggestions?
   
  Edit: I'm talking like under 40 a tube.


----------



## MrEleventy

circuitbender said:


> Is it cool if I ask for recommendations? I'm not about to dig through 117 pages of comments... I'm basically just looking for the best-value cheap tubes for the 336SE. It's gonna be pushing an HD600. I really like the normal sound sig, but maybe it could use a little bit more top-end sparkle. Any suggestions?
> 
> Edit: I'm talking like under 40 a tube.




I would try asking in the 6SN7 and 6AS7 threads. There's more ppl and impressions of each tube. The combo I ran that's within your budget range is the Tung-sol 7236 & Sylvania 6SN7GTA or the Tung-sol 6SN7GTB. The TS7236 set me back 36 from vacuumtube.net and the other 2 were about $10/each from eBay. The TS7236 & TS5998/Chatham 2399 were the only ones that I paid big for, all the other tubes in my profile were around $10-15 each from eBay. Just have some patience. Happy rolling.  

btw: Hope you're enjoying HD600s


----------



## Lorspeaker

i lined up the decware csp2+ as pre amp to a darkvoice336se....hook up my hd650,
  and the soundfield became highly saturated with details...
  i could hear MORE, hear DEEPER...
  little musical interplay going on in the background of complex music are more evident.
  u guys go try it, if u have another tube amp lying around.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





lorspeaker said:


> i lined up the decware csp2+ as pre amp to a darkvoice336se....hook up my hd650,
> and the soundfield became highly saturated with details...
> i could hear MORE, hear DEEPER...
> little musical interplay going on in the background of complex music are more evident.
> u guys go try it, if u have another tube amp lying around.


 
  I'm just curious, if you have a csp+ that is a fine headphone amp on it's own. Why would you hook it as a preamp to another headphone amp? I only ask this cause I am thinking of ordering the csp to use as a headphone amp (they have a new csp3 version coming out).


----------



## Lorspeaker

i find the depth of soundstage just thicken more....from front to back. denser sounding. 
  
  
 =============
  
 anyone ever tried using a ecc88 to 6sn7 adaptor  on the front slot...and rolled with ecc88tubes on the darkvoice??
 if so ...is it "better"? or not worth the bother n the risk.


----------



## scottosan

I just got my new 336SE today. I had ordered a good assortment of tubes ahead of time.

RCA 6AS7
Delco 6AS7
GE 6AS7
GE 5 star 6080
RCA 6080
National Electronic 6080

Tung Sol Mouse Ear 6NS7
Tung Sol Round Plate 6SN7
Sylvania Yellow label 6SN7
Sylvania Red Label 6SN7
Zenith 6SN7

All of the Power tubes sounded great with my favorites being the RCA 6AS7 the GE 6AS7 and GE 5 star. As for the 6SN7's I preferred the Sylvania Red Label and the Tung Sol round plate The Sylvania being more crisp and the Tung sol being more buttery.


----------



## bamagedi

agree,I would be happy to spend more on my interconnects for the IPod but I need advice on the products available


----------



## Lorspeaker

i bot a svetlana 6N13s, 1960s...sounded airy, i liked it.
 The other is a Westinghouse 6as7....also v airy.
 both are inexpensive ..from ebay.


----------



## Baldeagle58

I have tried to read everything that I can find about the DV336se and tube rolling. My unit came with a hum in the left channel and has gone silent after about 20 hours, but only with the 6SN7 that came from the factory. The others that I have (Elecro Harmonix, Electro Harmonix gold pin and Tung Sol) still produce a hum in the left channel. Since none of these 3 tubes are NOS I am assuming that this is not a tube problem. I am not equipped (with the skill) to do the fritz mod, so is it safe to assume that the hum will go away eventually ? Should I be running the unit with the humming tubes to get rid of said hum ?
 Any advice/help welcome.


----------



## MrEleventy

Try leaving them in and on for a period of 24 hours. My Raytheon 6SN7s did the same thing and it cleared up after a day in the burner. They weren't totally NOS, just slightly used but it's dead silent since. Worth a shot.


----------



## Baldeagle58

They have now been cooking for 72 hours. There is still a (much smaller) hum and it has gone far left. Think this is the answer. Hope that every tube is not going to need this treatment. Thanks for your input/advice.


----------



## MrEleventy

Not a prob, great to hear that it's been having some positive effect. 
I haven't had to do this to all my tubes, just some of the "newer" ones. Have fun rolling and be wary of the wallet.


----------



## cakebreaker

MrEleventy, I just found this thread and was wondering if you could give me some advise here. I have a similar issue with DV336se where I have a humming sound in the left channel. I got my amp yesterday and only have those stock tubes that came with it. I guess it needs time to burn in. However, I notice if I switch input and output tubes (large tube in front and small tube behind it) the hum disappears. I'm very new to tube amp world so I don't know if it even safe to keep it that way. Can you advise?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## MrEleventy

cakebreaker said:


> MrEleventy
> , I just found this thread and was wondering if you could give me some advise here. I have a similar issue with DV336se where I have a humming sound in the left channel. I got my amp yesterday and only have those stock tubes that came with it. I guess it needs time to burn in. However, I notice if I switch input and output tubes (large tube in front and small tube behind it) the hum disappears. I'm very new to tube amp world so I don't know if it even safe to keep it that way. Can you advise?
> 
> Thank you!


I would recommend leaving it on to burn in but in the proper order. The hum is probably "gone" because the 6SN7's gain isn't high enough to make it noticeable. Just give it some time, especially if it's a new unit and new tubes. Also, swap out the stock tubes. Pick up some RCAs (6as7 and 6sn7) from eBay. You can get a set of NOS/Tested well for around $50. Great bang for the buck. GL w/ the hum.


----------



## cakebreaker

Okay, thank you for your reply. After 30 hrs it is still buzzing. Perhaps, not as bad as it was. It is hard to say as I was paying too much attention to it  Yeap, I ordered some RCAs last night, so hopefully I get my music zen soon. Thank you again!


----------



## MrEleventy

The hum might go away with just swapping in the "new" tubes so I wouldn't worry too much about burning in and getting the stock tubes just right. They're not worth the time.


----------



## spacequeen7

"might" or may not..I just finished this little mod ,so far I'm happy


----------



## Lorspeaker

i love this amp.... i love this amp. 
 ENJOY bros !!
  
 ( diff combos of tubes will take away humms too, at least it is true on my set  )


----------



## cakebreaker

Happy to report that after cleaning my tubes (rubber alcohol+tooth brush) and then burning those for another 10 hours my hum is almost disappeared! 
 I realize that these tubes is not worth of time but I just needed to be sure that there is nothing wrong with the amp.
 Appreciate the positiveness from others when I felt like I made a big mistake by buying this amp! I also have Vali and Fiio E09K+E17 combo. I think I won't be using those for a while


----------



## cakebreaker

spacequeen7 said:


> "might" or may not..I just finished this little mod ,so far I'm happy


 
 I never opened up my amp (not yet). Can you elaborate a bit what exactly you did there?


----------



## MrEleventy

Looks like he replaced some caps.

I have the Vali too, it's less tubey but still very musical. Works well for my 770s, both of them.


----------



## cakebreaker

So, similar to Fitz mod or is that it?


----------



## spacequeen7

cakebreaker said:


> So, similar to Fitz mod or is that it?


 
 it's a bypass of two crappy resistors pictured here (thanks doco), "fitz mod"
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/353079/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod/15#post_5248489


----------



## cakebreaker

spacequeen7 said:


> it's a bypass of two crappy resistors pictured here (thanks doco), "fitz mod"
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/353079/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod/15#post_5248489


 
 Nice tweak. Looks easy enough. So, no humming at all? Do you think this capacitor will work?
 http://www.parts-express.com/220uf-100v-radial-mini-electrolytic-capacitor--020-1316?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla


----------



## spacequeen7

nope 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Yes 220uf/100v (anything over 16v) will work fine all tho Lelon aren't the best choice (I'm using Silmic II 100uf/100v)
  
 here is another one 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Nichicon-220uf-100v-85c-Axial-Electrolytic-Capacitors-NEW-/181377611757?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a3af2b7ed


----------



## cakebreaker

spacequeen7 said:


> nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Cool! Will buy a couple of those, so I have them. Thank you!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

Just dropped in a GE6as7GA, ( came with the amp when i bot it..looks like this tube in the link ?  )
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7-6AS7GA-VINTAGE-GE-TUBE-TESTED-SUPERB-/251446868286?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a8b66b93e
  
 and a supposedly "1953 GE 6SN7GTA" bought from a member,  ( 20-30bucks used, cant remember )
 and the combo sounded so fresh air CLEAN, very good extension at the top,
 NOTICEABLY deep in the soundstage, good pace, good density in sound, not brittle or lean sounding or too warm, no bloated bass. 
  
 very happy with this combo. Give it a try 
  

 Her voice soars cleanly with beautiful extension all the way uppp on the actual cd !


----------



## HeatFan12

RCA 6AS7G & Rogers 6SN7GTB (tall) today with DT770s (250 ohm).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## mrAdrian

Nice trick turning the iPod to an AK100 or DX50 XD


----------



## HeatFan12

mradrian said:


> Nice trick turning the iPod to an AK100 or DX50 XD


 
  
  
 That's the DX50 5.5G...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## HeatFan12

A little Westinghouse 6GU7 driver with the RCA 6AS7G tonight.  Sounding delicious indeed!!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

u are using an adaptor? 
 i have some ecc88s, can i use those on the front slot too? generally how would the ecc88 fare against the 6sn7s? anyone tried?


----------



## HeatFan12

lorspeaker said:


> u are using an adaptor?
> i have some ecc88s, can i use those on the front slot too? generally how would the ecc88 fare against the 6sn7s? anyone tried?


 
  
  
 Hey Lorspeaker,
  
 Yes, I am using a 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter.  There is a ECC88/6922/6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapter as well:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6922-to-6SN7-Vacuum-tube-adapter-socket-converter-/301163716071?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item461ec19de7


----------



## Lorspeaker

Thanks HeatFan, 
  
 here r some free music to cool u down 
 http://www.orchestralconcertcds.com/cd/cd000.html


----------



## HeatFan12

lorspeaker said:


> Thanks HeatFan,
> 
> here r some free music to cool u down
> http://www.orchestralconcertcds.com/cd/cd000.html




Thanks!!!

Cheers !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DarkLad

Hello guys
  
 Anyone tried GE JAN 6AS7G with Tung Sol 6AS7 GTB ? does it sound good ?
  
 Is the GE JAN CRC 6AS7G as good as the Tung Sol 5998 ?


----------



## HeatFan12

darklad said:


> Hello guys
> 
> Anyone tried GE JAN 6AS7G with Tung Sol 6AS7 GTB ? does it sound good ?
> 
> Is the GE JAN CRC 6AS7G as good as the Tung Sol 5998 ?


 
  
  
 Just rolled these in DarkLad:
  
  

  
  
  
 This combo sounds very good and delicious.  Very detailed, guitars are crisp and vocals are very clear and sort of in your face in a good way of course.  Love it.
  
  
  
 I had been using this combo for a few days (RCA 6AS7G & Motorola 6SN7GT):
  
  


  
  
 This combo is also very good with a more laidback, full-bodied presentation.  Both delicious in their own little way.
  
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## DarkLad

heatfan12 said:


> Just rolled these in DarkLad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
The GE JAN 6AS7G with Tung Sol 6AS7 GTB are on the way to me and going to order RCA 6AS7G and motorola 6SN7GT ^^
I have a 5998, Sylvania 6SN7GT "bad boy" and Sylvania JAN 6080WC on the way too 
  
Thanks


----------



## HeatFan12

That's great DarkLad!

Let us know how you like them.

Cheers!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DarkLad

Sure I will !!


----------



## phandrew

Best combo for me is the Chatham Electronics JAN 6AS7G and Brimar Black glass 6SN7GT.
  
 I would like to make my sound sig a bit brighter. What's the best options for this?


----------



## Lorspeaker

U hv a Sylvania tube in your drawer?


----------



## HeatFan12

phandrew said:


> Best combo for me is the Chatham Electronics JAN 6AS7G and Brimar Black glass 6SN7GT.
> 
> I would like to make my sound sig a bit brighter. What's the best options for this?


 
  
  
 Yep, as Lorspeaker stated, the Sylvanias have a nice top end.  Just threw this 6SN7WGTA in with the JAN 6AS7G.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Which would be the most bassy, full bodied 6as7? Anyone?


----------



## DarkLad

heatfan12 said:


> Just rolled these in DarkLad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Few mins ago I received my Darkvoice 336se with GE JAN 6AS7G and Tung Sol 6AS7 GTB 
 Man words can't describe how they sounds with my q701 !!! ( coming from bravo ocean amp ) !!
  
 Took some pics for you


----------



## phandrew

What tube is recommended if I want a neutral sound with good extension in both the lows and highs?


----------



## MrEleventy

Probably ts5998 or ts 7236 & a sylvania 6sn7 or ts 6sn7 tallboy for less bass than the sylvania


----------



## HeatFan12

darklad said:


> Few mins ago I received my Darkvoice 336se with GE JAN 6AS7G and Tung Sol 6AS7 GTB
> Man words can't describe how they sounds with my q701 !!! ( coming from bravo ocean amp ) !!
> 
> Took some pics for you


 
  
  
 Looking good DarkLad and glad to hear you are liking it.  Unfortunate about that broken tube.  Damaged in shipping?


----------



## DarkLad

Yes HeatFan12  but good news is DHL going to make it up for me. More tubes and a HD650 on the way also started a Grado/magnum project by ordering a Grado Wooden cups 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Back to tube rolling, GE6as7GA with Tung-sol combo is very good too !


----------



## HeatFan12

darklad said:


> Yes HeatFan12  but good news is DHL going to make it up for me. More tubes and a HD650 on the way also started a Grado/magnum project by ordering a Grado Wooden cups
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 That's great!  You will love the HD650s with the DV.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 A little 6H13C and GE 6SN7GTB (brown base) love today.


----------



## DarkLad

Btw I just realized that you the one who created this thread !! man I bought the 336se cause of you're thread lol


----------



## Lorspeaker

I bot Becos it was usd100...


----------



## DarkLad

used or new !?


----------



## HeatFan12

darklad said:


> Btw I just realized that you the one who created this thread !! man I bought the 336se cause of you're thread lol


 
  
 Almost six years ago and still going!


----------



## DarkLad




----------



## phandrew

Does anyone know how many watts this amp uses?


----------



## HeatFan12

phandrew said:


> Does anyone know how many watts this amp uses?


 
  
 power handling capacity is 1W.  Frequency: +/-1dB 10Hz~20kHz


----------



## phandrew

Sorry I'm talking about power consumption.


----------



## HeatFan12

phandrew said:


> Sorry I'm talking about power consumption.


 
  
 The only thing I could find:
  
 Characteristic parameters:
 Driven Resistance Range:          32 ～ 600
 Frequency Response:           10Hz ～ 30kHz (-1db)
 Signal and Noise Ratio:              > 100db
*Output Power:                       > 2W*
 Alternating Current Power:          220V/50Hz


----------



## Lorspeaker

darklad said:


> used or new !?


 
  
 used, but MINT...


----------



## HeatFan12

lorspeaker said:


> used, but MINT...


 
  
  
 Great deal.  Looking good!
  
 How do you like the NFB-10.32 Lorspeaker?
  
 A buddy brought his over a while back with his HE-500s (balanced) and that sound was amazing.  I plugged in my HD650s (balanced) and it spanked them real good.  Great sound......


----------



## MrEleventy

Lorspeaker What hp do you run off the 336?


----------



## Lorspeaker

heatfan12 said:


> Great deal.  Looking good!
> 
> How do you like the NFB-10.32 Lorspeaker?
> 
> A buddy brought his over a while back with his HE-500s (balanced) and that sound was amazing.  I plugged in my HD650s (balanced) and it spanked them real good.  Great sound......


 
  
 NFB10.32 is neutral sounding with a hint of warmth, a month after it arrived, i sold off the LYR n LDmk4se...tot i dun need tube amps anymore.. lolz.
 But i snagged the DV thereafter...must say i like the DV best 
  
  


mreleventy said:


> @Lorspeaker What hp do you run off the 336?


 
  
 ( see my profile.... the DV can handle every can i have with no issues... cept the HE-6 )


----------



## MrEleventy

lorspeaker said:


> ( see my profile.... the DV can handle every can i have with no issues... cept the HE-6 )


Ahh, nice. How's the T1 sound w/ the DV? I got a pair coming and wondering if I should upgrade or go w/ the status quo.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i dun know if it is visual, but the sight of the bigger 6AS7s ..the lush sound ozzing out of the DV ...
 complements the halogenic Tesla drivers wonderfully.


----------



## DarkLad

Really nice deal Lorspeaker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


lorspeaker said:


> ( see my profile.... the DV can handle every can i have with no issues... cept the HE-6 )


 
  
  


heatfan12 said:


> A buddy brought his over a while back with his HE-500s (balanced) and that sound was amazing.  I plugged in my HD650s (balanced) and it spanked them real good.  Great sound......


 
  
 Then why people keep saying DV336se bad with low impedance headphones !?


----------



## Lorspeaker

Maybe it is a generalisation for OTL amps....
Might not be applicable for certain designs? 
I have d7000, Q701, LCD2...NO ISSUES.
worst case scenario, I put dac to high gain if I want more forward mids


----------



## MrEleventy

lorspeaker said:


> i dun know if it is visual, but the sight of the bigger 6AS7s ..the lush sound ozzing out of the DV ...
> complements the halogenic Tesla drivers wonderfully.


That's good to hear. My wallet thanks you.


----------



## HeatFan12

darklad said:


> Really nice deal Lorspeaker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 As Lorspeaker stated, it basically is a generalisation with OTL amps.  We can read, read, and read some more, but at the end of the day the best test is plugging in and listening for ourselves.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 A little Grado and Markus Schulz love with the 6H13C & RCA in the DV:


----------



## DarkLad

heatfan12 said:


> We can read, read, and read some more, but at the end of the day the best test is plugging in and listening for ourselves.


 
  
*I totally agree with that.*
  
*Today trying Sylvania 6080 with tung sol mmm okay combo!*
  

  
  
*and enjoying an old track I like since I was a lil kid that I would like to share with you guys *



* *


----------



## HeatFan12

Nice DarkLad!  Thanks!


----------



## dguitarnut

My Darkvoice 336SE sounds delicious with the LCD-XC and thats with the stock tubes!  It seems to add the bass thump that they are notorious for lacking.  Not sure I want to mess around with tube rolling since I'm so pleased with the sound.


----------



## MrEleventy

Roll in a cheap Rca 6as7 and 6sn7. Should only set you back 30-40. Well worth it, especially when you want dat bass.


----------



## DarkLad

Today I received a chatham  5998 and some other tubes, after hooking the 5998 and sylvania vt-231 my AKG Q701 sounds so amazing !! I was like is it really my q701 !!!


----------



## Nympho

What are the best tubes to roll in for a nice dark/warm sounds?


----------



## Lorspeaker

i would look for Tungsol tubes...
 plug in my red old copper powercord, and a HD650...kick back n zzz


----------



## Nympho

lorspeaker said:


> i would look for Tungsol tubes...
> plug in my red old copper powercord, and a HD650...kick back n zzz


 
 Any specific tungsol i have already bought:
*National Electronics USA 6AS7G Gray Plate*
*RCA USA JAN-CRC-6SN7GT*
*6080 BRIMAR NOS*


----------



## Lorspeaker

i hv a tungsol 6SN7GTB black plate tall bottle ..paid 15bucks. 
  

  
  
post #1517
 i recently did some comparo with a few of my 6AS7s....
 the chinese ShuGuang 6N5PJ has this rounded rich tone to it. nice.

  

  
 Putting them to work, on Jane Monheit...slow jazzzy singing. 
 geezzz...i m feeeeling sleeeeepy.


----------



## Nympho

I will be running the DV 336SE from my Asus Stx as my DAC is that good or should I look for a dedicated DAC?


----------



## Lorspeaker

if u are enjoying the music then it is FINE...
 if u are generally dissatisfied, then start lookg.
  
 i like the "overengineered" audiogd stuff...
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Products-EN.htm


----------



## Nympho

lorspeaker said:


> if u are enjoying the music then it is FINE...
> if u are generally dissatisfied, then start lookg.
> 
> i like the "overengineered" audiogd stuff...
> ...


 
 Only reason I ask is because I am getting ready for it to come on Friday, already have a few tubes. Also my HD650's are coming in on Friday, so I am gonna be the happiest person alive.


----------



## Nympho

I love the combo of the tungsol 6SN7GTB black plate with the National Electronics USA 6AS7G Gray Plate Top O Get 3 Mica it rolls the highs off and puts the mids forwards with a great bottom end, not burnt in yet may change.


----------



## Lorspeaker

nympho said:


> I love the combo of the tungsol 6SN7GTB black plate with the National Electronics USA 6AS7G Gray Plate Top O Get 3 Mica it rolls the highs off and puts the mids forwards with a great bottom end, not burnt in yet may change.


 
  
 can u post a pic on the 3mica...


----------



## Nympho

Hope these pictures help, as it is way to hot to take out.


----------



## Nympho

Anyone try a Thomson 6080WA?


----------



## Lorspeaker

nympho said:


> Anyone try a Thomson 6080WA?


 

  
 It is very balanced n clean sounding...not lean, not full bodied... 
 kind of a goodie two shoes type of personality.


----------



## Nympho

Eh, doesnt sound like what I am looking for, maybe in the future I'll buy one. Thanks for the description though!


----------



## Nympho

Brimar 6080 and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB are definitely a bass head combination, which is perfect for when I am listening to EDM, and I can't wait to try the RCA in place of the Tung-sol.


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://pacifictv.ca/pixs/eiatubecodelist.pdf
  
 incase anyone is interested in those codes.


----------



## MIKELAP

What would be the differences between 336i and 336se sonically and electronically . Thanks


----------



## Oskari

If I remember correctly, this was a cosmetic change.


----------



## Nympho

I have two brimar 6080 and they both have a shimmering or buzzing sound but if i tap the tube it goes away for awhile and comes back. Is there anyway to fix it?


----------



## Lorspeaker

sometimes the buzzing goes away after a certain hour of burning in.....
 sometimes they dun, or cant be heard once u up the vol.
  
 or try cleaning the pins.
  
  
 or try diff combo, sometimes the buzz will go away.


----------



## Lorspeaker

switched out a CSF6080 with an inexpensive chatham JAN 6as7...
 and the soundstage of my yamaha MT220 exxxxxpannnnnded ..FUN !


----------



## tingsam501

I'm a total newb but I'm having a hard time finding anything substantial in terms of reviews for the 336se...
  
 Also, any recommendations with headphone pairing???  Trying to sift through hundreds of messages has taken a toll on me.


----------



## Nympho

tingsam501 said:


> I'm a total newb but I'm having a hard time finding anything substantial in terms of reviews for the 336se...
> 
> Also, any recommendations with headphone pairing???  Trying to sift through hundreds of messages has taken a toll on me.


 
 Depends what your budget is in terms of headphone pairing.


----------



## Lorspeaker

tingsam501 said:


> I'm a total newb but I'm having a hard time finding anything substantial in terms of reviews for the 336se...
> 
> Also, any recommendations with headphone pairing???  Trying to sift through hundreds of messages has taken a toll on me.


 
  
  
 safely...high impedence cans are better...hd600 hd650..dt150


----------



## tingsam501

Thanks guys.
  
 I think my most power hungry headphones right now are the Mad Dogs and the AKG KXX's...
  
 I guess I'll be saving some pennies to try to find some more hungry hungry headphones.


----------



## HeatFan12

Fiio X1 (line-out) --> DV336SE --> HE-300.  Sounding great!!!  Cheers!!


----------



## UntilThen

Just got a used 336se in mint condition and comes with some tubes. At the moment using driver Motorola 6SN7GTB and power RCA JAN 6AS7G. I'm loving the sound from this setup now. It's got warmth and full bodied and I like that ! It's still a few hours into listening. I'll form better impressions after a few days. I have a choice of using Aune T1 or o2+odac as my dac. At the moment I'm using the Aune T1 first with stock tube. I'm listening with hd650 now. Will try the dt880 pro in a day or so. Best of all there's no hum from the Darkvoice with those tubes.
  
 Some pictures.


----------



## HeatFan12

Looking great UntilThen!!
  
 Congratz!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Heatfan. Do you still have your Darkvoice 336?
  
 This is the beginning of my tube amp journey. I just bought a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top with green lettering for US$32.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Thanks Heatfan. Do you still have your Darkvoice 336?
> 
> This is the beginning of my tube amp journey. I just bought a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top with green lettering for US$32.





Indeed I do. I had two of them but sold one a few years ago. The pic above at top was taken on a great tube rolling night.

Be careful. Those 6sn7 and 6AS7s are very addictive. Lol. 

Look at the first post in this thread. That was years ago when the prices were very good. Now, everything has skyrocketed.

If you look and have a bit of patience on the bay, some lots of 4 or so come up every now and then for 6SN7s. I haven't purchased any 6SN7s in a long time but last year I was looking for some 5687s for another amp and jumped on a lot of 4 Sylvanias and RCAs that I noticed at a crazy price.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

Wow that first post was 2008 and you're still enjoying your Darkvoice 336 in 2015.
  
 I must say it's got very good synergy with the aune t1 and hd650. Pretty sure it will sound good with my dt880 pro too.
 I haven't had time to swap the aune t1 with the o2+odac. I'm just too immersed listening to music.
  
 Addictive indeed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I lament the high cost of tubes now. Fortunately the seller threw in some tubes for me to get started.
  
 This is what I have:-
  
 Driver tubes
 Motorola 6SN7 GTB
 RCA 6SN7
  
 Power tubes
 RCA JAN 6AS7G
 RCA 6AS7G
 RCA 6AS7GA
  
 All working with no hum. What a bonus.
  
 My preference seems to be the Motorola and the RCA JAN combo but strangely all sound pretty good. I haven't put in the stock tubes to try. Probably at a later stage just to hear for myself.
  
 This thread is very quiet now. I guess after 7 years most people have moved on to other amps or just quietly enjoying their Darkvoice !


----------



## HeatFan12

You have several nice combos there. And no hum is definitely a big bonus. 

Yeah, lots of amps out there now to choose from. I still enjoy mine tremendously after all this time.

No worries, you and I will keep this thread alive. Lol. I will fire mine up later today after work. Gonna dig up a coin-base 6SN7 I have not listened to in a while.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

What a coincidence. A friend just recommend I try
  
*6SN7GTB RCA coin base vacuum tubes*
*and*
*HP BY GE BLACK PLATE O-GETTER 6AS7GA 6AS7 OUTPUT TUBES.*
  
 Let me know what you think of the coin-base 6SN7. By the way why is it call coin-base. I don't see any coin.


----------



## HeatFan12

Will do. 

It does not have a thick base like 6sn7s. More like 'coin' sized base


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

Ah got you. Thanks I learn something new everyday in this hobby.


----------



## HeatFan12

I forgot I posted this on this thread. Down the line, if you want some alternatives to driver tubes look at post #293. Way more inexpensive and sound great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> What a coincidence. A friend just recommend I try
> 
> [COLOR=333333]*6SN7GTB RCA coin base vacuum tubes*[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=333333]*and*[/COLOR]
> ...




The base is very thin hence coin base. I have a pair of RCA coin base tall bottles made for Wurlitzer. Worth hearing.

Edit: The GE 6AS7GA aren't bad. If you want to experiment a bit, try a Chatham 6AS7G, a Russian 6AS7G, Raytheon JAN 6080WA, RCA 6080 black plate....

FWIW, I almost always run a 7N7 driver and any of the aforementioned tubes, and some others, but I don't want to overwhelm you. Good luck.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh thanks Heat Fan and Shaffer. Now you've open up possibilities using adapters to 6SN7.
  
 I can't find your Westinghouse model in eBay HeatFan.
  
 Shaffer thanks for your opinion on GE 6AS7GA. I'll note the others you mentioned but eBay seem quite lacking in 6AS7G varieties at the moment.
  
 What particular 7N7 driver would you recommend.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> he moment.
> 
> What particular 7N7 driver would you recommend.




Only two manufacturers produced the 7N7, mostly Sylvania, even though it was sold under different brands. The better one to get is the tall bottle, which is essentially the equivalent of a Bad Boy with a lcotal base. The short bottles are very good, too. You will need an adapter - ~$15.


----------



## UntilThen

Excellent thanks for the info. I also found this link where they talk about the 7N7. 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/194962/in-praise-of-the-7n7-tube.


----------



## UntilThen

Revisiting the Wall by Pink Floyd tonight. 2011 remastered.
  
 This time dt880 pro takes centre stage with the Darkvoice 336se using Motorola 6SN7GTB and RCA Jan 6AS7G.
  
 I haven't heard this album for a while and it's so refreshing hearing it from this combo. The helicopter sounded so real in the 4th track 'The happiest days of our lives'.
 Imaging was really good and soundstage was impressive. When the drums kicks in there's impact. This is music. This is why I get a tube amp and spend time trying to
 understand the tube terminology


----------



## JohnBal

untilthen said:


> Revisiting the Wall by Pink Floyd tonight. 2011 remastered.
> 
> This time dt880 pro takes centre stage with the Darkvoice 336se using Motorola 6SN7GTB and RCA Jan 6AS7G.
> 
> ...


 
 I think your Motorola might be a Sylvania in disguise. They do that alot. Nice tubes. Enjoy. I never really liked the RCA 6AS7G in my 336i. A bit too slow/thick for me. I found a TungSol 5998 and never looked back. I also found I REALLY like the CBS 6SN7. Awesome tubes and dirt cheap. If you are interested in those, stay away from the ones with the black flashing spot on the side of the tube. They are GE. Lots of rebrands out there.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi John thanks for chiming in. Those Tung sol 5998 are US$139 on eBay !!!
  
 I just bought these Two 6SN7 GTB Sylvania Angle Plate Chrome Top Highfidelity Graded Pair and awaiting it's arrival. I have bids on a pair of drivers and 5 power tubes ! 
  
 I have to go sloow and eeeeasy like Tina Turner in Proud Mary.


----------



## JohnBal

I know. The prices on those have jumped crazy fast. Sometimes you might be able to find a deal though. The Bendix 6080 are good too. But I like the 5998 the best for the 336.


----------



## HeatFan12

A little RCA 6SN7GTB coin base action with a Raytheon JAN 6080WB fed by A-GD NFB 11.32 (coax) and DX50 as transport.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Shaffer

Very nice! I run a similar setup on occasion - Raytheon 6080WA and a coin base RCA 6SN7GTB. 

ATM, my DV is shod with a black plate RCA 6AS7G and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. Also, a very nice sounding combo.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> Very nice! I run a similar setup on occasion - Raytheon 6080WA and a coin base RCA 6SN7GTB.
> 
> ATM, my DV is shod with a black plate RCA 6AS7G and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. Also, a very nice sounding combo.


 
  
  
 Thanks Shaffer!
  
 I love the dynamics and punch of the 6080s.
  
 Have a 7N7 coming up for ya.  lol....  Trying to choose a nice power tube for it and waiting for this lightning storm to pass....


----------



## UntilThen

Nice pictures HeatFan !!! and I bet it sounds great.
  
 Holy smoke keep this coming. You guys have a nice collection of tubes. I want to see more.
  
 Meanwhile I listen to the HE560 with the Darkvoice on Patricia Barber Cafe Blue and Wild Horses by Rolling Stones. Love it !
 I have to turn up the volume tho.


----------



## UntilThen

Heatfan did you use a socket saver on the driver tube?


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Nice pictures HeatFan !!! and I bet it sounds great.
> 
> Holy smoke keep this coming. You guys have a nice collection of tubes. I want to see more.
> 
> Meanwhile I listen to the HE560 with the Darkvoice on Patricia Barber Cafe Blue and Wild Horses by Rolling Stones. Love it !


 
  


untilthen said:


> Heatfan did you use a socket saver on the driver tube?


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!
  
 Now those HE-560s are looking fantastic next to the DV.  Awesome pic!  I bet they sound great.  Would love to hear those one day.  A while back a buddy brought over his HE-500s and I fell in love with their sexy sound.  Never got around to buy them though.
  
 Nope, no socket savers for me.  Hmmm, does look like that from those pics.
  
  
 Pulled out some German 6AS7Gs (Svet 6H13C?) I purchased a while ago.  Got the quad for cheap.  Also, pulled out a 1956 Sylvania JAN 7N7.  Pretty good combo and very detailed with the highs controlled on the DT 880s.  A little more bass would be welcomed though...lol....Or I gotta get readjusted from the HE-300s bass I had on a while ago.


----------



## Shaffer

That's a very nice 7N7.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> That's a very nice 7N7.


 
  
  
 Thanks!
  
 I've had it boxed up for a while.  I purchased it back in '08 or '09.  It's great to have all these options with adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

Exciting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks HF. Pictures paint a thousand words and those Svet 6H13C and 7N7 are more wallet friendly and look very nice ! Those Svet looks just like 6AS7 tubes. Wait you said German but I thought Svets are Russians.
  
 Any 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter will do? Even those made in china ones? Your adapter looks tall but I like it.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I've had it boxed up for a while.  I purchased it back in '08 or '09.  It's great to have all these options with adapters.




If it's NOS, as you may know, the 7N7 needs a lot of burn in. IME, more than usual. Frankly, I was surprised.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Exciting
> 
> 
> 
> ...





They are labeled Germany 6AS7G. I meant they look like the Svets. Yes, that adapter came from China. Works great.




shaffer said:


> heatfan12 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks!
> ...





When I first received them, I ran them for a while. Through the years, I've pulled them out periodically. It's maybe been over a year since my last listen to them.

I'm also a fan of the 7AF7. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaffer

I'm not familiar with the 7AF7. Would it work in the DV?


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> I'm not familiar with the 7AF7. Would it work in the DV?





Indeed. Same adapter. Those are usually a little bit more than the 7N7s but good deals do come up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Indeed. Same adapter. Those are usually a little bit more than the 7N7s but good deals do come up




I appreciate the tip. Will get some soon. I have two amps that use 6SN7 drivers, so I'll need at least three.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice more options. Thanks HF. Anymore tips I'm all ears


----------



## HeatFan12

Well, another option that I think I mentioned a bit back in the thread, is the 6CG7 & 6GU7 (w/ adapters).  These were going about $2-$5 each or so last year.  Also, nice lots become available every now and then.
  
  
 Here is a Silvertone branded 6GU7.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm trying to compile a list of tubes with adapters that works as driver tubes in the DV 336se. All this coming from you HeatFan. You're a great help.
  
 6CG7
 6GU7 same adapter as 6CG7 ?
  
 7N7
 7AF7 same adapter as 7N7
  
 6922 ECC88
 You mentioned this a while back too using the 6922 to 6SN7 adapter. This is interesting because the 6922 tubes are also the tubes for the AuneT1 which I'm using as a DAC in my setup. That means I can use the tubes interchangeably.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> I'm trying to compile a list of tubes with adapters that works as driver tubes in the DV 336se. All this coming from you HeatFan. You're a great help.
> 
> 6CG7
> 6GU7 same adapter as 6CG7 ? *Yes*
> ...


 
  
  
 My pleasure UT


----------



## UntilThen

I know this is evil. Whist I'm still enjoying my dv 336se my plan is to acquire a La Figaro 339 (similar to the Darkvoice 337) in the future.
  
 The power tubes used are the same between those amps. I'll be buying in pairs now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Any idea if the driver tubes are interchangeable between the 336 and 337 ?


----------



## UntilThen

That seems like a new DAC you're using with the dv in the last picture. What is it?


----------



## UntilThen

Have a wonderful Sunday everyone. Enjoy your dv with this
  

  
 and you did it your way with your Darkvoice !


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> *I know this is evil. Whist I'm still enjoying my dv 336se my plan is to acquire a La Figaro 339 (similar to the Darkvoice 337) in the future.*
> 
> The power tubes used are the same between those amps. I'll be buying in pairs now. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> Any idea if the driver tubes are interchangeable between the 336 and 337 ?




Take a look at the Feliks Audio Elise. It's the single best sounding headphone amp I've heard to date and it uses the same tubes as the DV. There's a big thread on this board. The Elise is a handmade, bespoke, European beauty designed and configured specifically as per the wishes of listeners on this forum.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> That seems like a new DAC you're using with the dv in the last picture. What is it?


 
  
 It's a new oldie.  lol...It was all the rage years ago.  The Zero DAC.  I had upgraded opamps put in a while back and it does sound nice and clean.  Had not used it in a while.  Pulled it out and put it on the test table today.
  
 I'm with Shaffer on the Elise.  All I have read on that amp has been very positive and same tube complement.


----------



## UntilThen

Very interesting the Elise. I'm reading about it now. Wonder how it would compare with the La Figaro 339 sound wise.


----------



## UntilThen

The Darkvoice 336se at US$289 is a real bargain. The Elise is US$649 and the La Figaro US$730. And you need twice as many tubes and preferably as matched pairs ! Question is how much better. 
  
 It's the price you pay for going your way !


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Shaffer for pointing out the Elise. I'm still reading the long thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Looking very interesting tho.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> The Darkvoice 336se at US$289 is a real bargain. The Elise is US$649 and the La Figaro US$730. And you need twice as many tubes and preferably as matched pairs ! Question is how much better.
> 
> It's the price you pay for going your way !




I haven't heard the La Figaro and likely never will, as I absolutely refuse to buy any component with dual volume knobs. As far as comparing the Elise to the DV336SE, it exists in an entirely different sonic dimension. It's like comparing a fine machine like a Focus ST to a McLaren. FWIW, the stock tubes in the Elise are very good. There's no need to jump into rolling immediately. This being said, the amplifier was designed with tube rolling in mind. Stop by the thread and ask some questions. Some very experienced folks there. Good luck with whatever you choose.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the impressions especially seeing you have both the dv and the elise. I look forward to the day when I can drive the McLaren then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I do like the looks of it. Meanwhile I'm enjoying Star Wars tracks with my dv and hd650.
  
 What headphones in your inventory are you most happy with the Elise. I'm still reading through that thread.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah ok no worries I got to the part where you received your Elise and also your headphones preference with it. It's looking very good from the impressions on this amp.
  
 Meanwhile I'm back to present day with my Darkvoice. Hmm tube amp is my thing for sure and I'm happy with tubes I've so far. I think I'm about to win the bid for the HP by GE 6SA7GA. Back to Wars of the World. This sound incredibly good with the hd650 + dv.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Ah ok no worries I got to the part where you received your Elise and also your headphones preference with it. It's looking very good from the impressions on this amp.
> 
> *Meanwhile I'm back to present day with my Darkvoice. Hmm tube amp is my thing for sure and I'm happy with tubes I've so far. I think I'm about to win the bid for the HP by GE 6SA7GA. Back to Wars of the World. This sound incredibly good with the hd650 + dv.*




You'll see later on in the thread my review of the DV compared to the Elise. Don't get me wrong; I like the DV and use it often. It's just that the Elise offers more. IMO, the amp is heavily underpriced for its performance envelope.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I've read your reviews of the Darkvoice 336se vs Elise. Very well written and you articulated very well.
  
 Earlier tonight I switch off my Aune T1 > Darkvoice 336se > hd650 to give the tubes a rest. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 In the interim I listened to War of the Worlds on the Windows PC > o2+odac > DT880 Pro. It sounded good until....
  
 I went back to the iMac > Aune T1 > Darkvoice 336se > hd650 and listen to War of the Worlds again and my jaw dropped !!!
 It now has weight and substance in abundance. I'm wondering how can it get better than this. This is audio bliss.
  
 Ok maybe later down the track ...the Elise. I like to plan for the future. It's good to know the tubes are the same between these 2 amps.
 I just need to get matching pairs and find nice sounding tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Now another comparison with different headphones on the Darkvoice using those glowing tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I sat listening to War of the Worlds track3 'The Artilleryman and the Fighting Machine' and track4 'Forever Autumn' with the Hifiman HE560 first. Crystal clear, the highs the mids and the lows albeit the latter a bit polite but distinctly clear nevertheless.
  
 Then I strap on the Senn HD650 and sat listening to the same tracks again. What I'm about to say will not please HE560 owners including my son. However this is my opinion and this is how I feel when I listen with the HD650. This hp has a richness and texture that just captivates me. Richard Burton's voice thick from cigar smoke and whisky drinking put a spell on me. I love his voice and his acting in the classic 'Where Eagles Dare' where he outshine another of my fav actor Clint Eastwood. The orchestra in full swing brings awe and pounding to my chest. The bass has weight and muscles. The mids and vocals they're the fireworks from this musical fountain. I'm on to something special here. This moment I knew that the hd650 and the Darkvoice will stay in my inventory even if I did acquire more 'upgrades' down the track.


----------



## JohnBal

I have no doubt the 650 sounds really good on the 336. The DV loves a high impedance load like the Senn. The HiFIMan is not an ideal load at all for an OTL amp being both low impedance and insensitive. Driving the HiFiMan with the 336 and comparing it to a Senn 650 on an OTL amp like the DV is not a fair comparison to the HiFiMan since its being woefully underdriven. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## UntilThen

You're right. Headphone and amp pairing is important. Guess my headphones inventory of the hd650 and dt880 pro fits the DV really well.
  
  And I have no doubt the HE560 will sound great with the right amp.


----------



## UntilThen

John I noticed you've the Woo WA6 in addition to the Darkvoice 336i. I've read good things about the WA6 and Woo amps are superbly made. Do much tube rolling with it?


----------



## Shaffer

Two months of ownership and my DV336SE needs service. I'm scrapping the piece, as much as it pains me. Can't see myself buying another Chinese amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh Shaffer that's sad to hear that. What happen to the unit.
  
 Mine probably had 2 previous owners but touch wood it's working fine, very fine indeed.
  
 Guess they tested it for me and burn it in.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Oh Shaffer that's sad to hear that. What happen to the unit.
> 
> Mine probably had 2 previous owners but touch wood it's working fine, very fine indeed.
> 
> Guess they tested it for me and burn it in.




No idea why this happened. It's a cool day, the amp wasn't overly hot, it was on for all day and showed no issues as usual. Then, after playing the Elise for a while and switching to the DV for some Reggae Dub, the thing produced a faint sound almost completely masked by distortion. And I mean _distortion_. Changed tubes a few times to no avail. Cables, as well.

Now I need to decide whether to have the amp rebuilt with premium parts and sink more money into it, or cut my losses here. Not something I counted on. If I had some indication that the DV would be significantly bettered sonically by a rebuild, I'd likely consider it seriously.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok mine was on the whole day for the last few days. I was listening like some crazy crow listening to a robin sing. However it's winter here and cool and the DV actually help heat up my study a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Is your DV under warranty or you bought it off someone? No smoke coming from it right? Maybe it's an easy fix.
  
 I know someone who rebuilt his DV with caps replacement, volume pot replacement and the switch replacement and he use it with his HD800. It's probably one of his spare setup because I know he has Stax but the fact is he deem it worthwhile to rebuild it and keep it in his inventory.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Ok mine was on the whole day for the last few days. I was listening like some crazy crow listening to a robin sing. However it's winter here and cool and the DV actually help heat up my study a bit :bigsmile_face:




Always a nice bonus.



> Is your DV under warranty or you bought it off someone? No smoke coming from it right? Maybe it's an easy fix.




I bought it new, but did open the amp to disconnect the LED. No smoke, no visible signs of damage. Shipping it to China and back is out of the question, as I could probably have it fixed for about the same cost here. It very well may be an easy fix. 



> I know someone who rebuilt his DV with caps replacement, volume pot replacement and the switch replacement and he use it with his HD800. It's probably one of his spare setup because I know he has Stax but the fact is he deem it worthwhile to rebuild it and keep it in his inventory.




That's encouraging. For now, I decided to stay with the amps I have, as I'm very happy with them: the Elise, a V200, and a Meier Concerto. I'll still look into the benefits that may come about from a rebuild with better parts.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice amps in your inventory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So envious.
  
 But think of it this way...as far as the Darkvoice is concerned the tubes are taken care of !!!  You have them in abundance since you can use it in both the Elise and the DV.
 Wouldn't it be handy for when you decide to rock away with Megadeth just plug it into the Dark One and listen to 'Countdown to Extinction'. You know this is referring to our tubes right?


----------



## JohnBal

untilthen said:


> John I noticed you've the Woo WA6 in addition to the Darkvoice 336i. I've read good things about the WA6 and Woo amps are superbly made. Do much tube rolling with it?


 
 Actually, I have had the Woo for only 2 weeks now. Have not done much rolling yet, only swapping the rectifier tube to some NOS tubes. Noticing big changes by doing just that. Expecting my adapters today to allow me to install my 6F8G tubes, so I'm looking forward to that   But I do think the Woo is a more refined, exciting amp with the upgraded tubes. I think it can be pushed farther, and become more resolving, with better tubes. The Darkvoice can only go so far, even with the best tubes. But for the $, I think it's a killer amp, for sure.


----------



## JohnBal

Also, regarding the build of the Woo. I was surprised how heavy the darn thing is compared to the Darkvoice. I thought the DV was pretty solid. But once the Woo came and I tried to lift it with one hand like I do the DV, I was taken aback, and relaized I had better start working out. That is one solid amp. So, build quality I would give to the Woo. Hands down.


----------



## UntilThen

Skylab rank the Woo WA6 much higher than the Darkvoice 336se so I believe it's a much better tube amp. The DV is 5.5kgs. Hmm the WA6 must be 7 or 8 kg. Congrats on the purchase. Keen to hear your impressions when you spend more time with it. What's your goto headphone now.
  
 Tonight after scanning long and hard in eBay for some power tubes I manage to purchase 2 6080. One is a HP and the other Dumont brand. Just under $20 bucks each and since they are from the same seller I save $11 on shipping. Shipping is $13 for the 2 items.
  
 So I'm still waiting on the arrival of the Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top with green lettering and soon after I'll have the 6080s. That's a start in addition to the tubes I have already got. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Oh I'm still bidding on the 4 RCA 6SN7GTB Coin base....


----------



## JohnBal

shaffer said:


> Two months of ownership and my DV336SE needs service. I'm scrapping the piece, as much as it pains me. Can't see myself buying another Chinese amp.


 
 Sorry to hear that. I have never had a problem with my 336i. What tubes were in it at the time? Were they damaged as well?


----------



## Shaffer

johnbal said:


> Sorry to hear that. I have never had a problem with my 336i. What tubes were in it at the time? Were they damaged as well?




The tubes are fine. I was running a JAN Raytheon 6080 and a 7N7 driver. Still on he fence as to how I'll proceed. There's a part of me that wants to have the amp rebuilt.


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan don't disappear. You're suppose to help me keep this thread alive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What other tubes do you have to share.


----------



## UntilThen

Swap out the Aune T1 for the 02+odac and the sound is clearer, louder and bass is still there. Wonderful !


----------



## HeatFan12

Cheers UT!!! Looking great!!

Last couple days been working lots of hours. No time to fire her up. Come tomorrow night, it's on again with a few more goodies. Lol

Sorry to hear about your DV Shaffer. A shame indeed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

In the latest development I got a high fidelity source. A Sony CD Walkman in mint condition !!!
It has been with me all these years.


----------



## UntilThen

Darkvoice 336se is available on Massdrop again. For an entry level OTL tube amp this is superb value and sounds amazing with hd650 and dt880.
  
 Careful those glowing tube sound are mesmerising. I'm thinking of the Elise.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Darkvoice 336se is available on Massdrop again. For an entry level OTL tube amp this is superb value and sounds amazing with hd650 and dt880.
> 
> Careful those glowing tube sound are mesmerising. I'm thinking of the Elise.


 
  
  
 Where you at UT?!?
  
 Yes, let's not forget that the DV336 is an entry level otl tube amp that is fun and a great value with all the various options, including the tube complement and/or adapters.
  
 Tonight on the work table is a simple JAN Philips 6922 being used as driver with adapter.  Still with the German branded 6AS7G as power.  Line-out to iPad.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

I've been frolicking with Elise lol. Even talking to the seller.
  
 Please HF keep me here. Don't let me go to the dark side so soon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There's a lot to like about the Darkvoice really.
  
 Nice pictures from you again. Those 6922 will work in my Aune T1. Hmmm I like to see you using iPod iPad as source. Pretty sure that's what Steve has in mind haha.
  
 Oh my tubes are on the way. Even the RCA 6SN7GTB Coin base with 12 hours to go. Actually I hope I don't win this bid. Not too sure about the coin base now.


----------



## HeatFan12

Hahahaha!  You will go to the dark side sooner than you think.  So many amps and tubes and craziness to choose from nowadays.  I've been reading on the Elise since the beginning and the Project Ember, Solstice and the others with self biasing and many tubes to choose from.  But I slid down that slope a while back.  lol  The DV was my first tube amp.  I purchased it around the same time as my LD MKIV SE.  And just built around those in reference to the tubes used for future purposes.  I still own the LD as well.  It's good to go back and remember where all the craziness started and just enjoy the music.
  
 For me now it's all about tweaking.  I ordered an impedance adapter to use with low-z cans with my OTLs.
  
 The only amp I have that uses independent tubes from my existing collection is the Mapletree Ear+ HD.  It rocks with 12B4As for power and 5751/12AX7/7025s for drivers.  All my other tube amps I can swap tubes as well as adapters.
  
 Here's the MKIV SE & Mapletree in action


----------



## UntilThen

You've some juicy stuff in your inventory. So many headphones and amps !
  
 I think that Ear thingy is good. The LD4 looks good too. All amps with tubes looks good lol. And Grados !!! Are you a Grado collector? 
  
 It's a nice hobby. Like you said you can reminisce when you look at each item. Yes I got that when I first heard the Beatles !!!


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks UT!

Yes, I guess as the years passed I turned into a collector. Resale value obviously drops and there comes a point if you sell, the loss is significant.

When that point came, I turned a room into a headphone listening man cave. Lol

Indeed. Big Grado and Ultrasone fan.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

HF what adapter did you use on your ipad to the line out of the darkvoice. Can you post a pic. You're not going through a dac?


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF what adapter did you use on your ipad to the line out of the darkvoice. Can you post a pic. You're not going through a dac?


 
  
  
 Hey UT,
  
 It's an iPod dock.  Using it as line out, bypassing the iPad headphone out, but not its dac.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks HF. I have an iPad3 laying around so might give it a go.


----------



## UntilThen

Have been comparing 2 power tubes. RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6AS7GA. Driver tube used is Motorola 6SN7GTB.
  
 There doesn't seem to be any difference. Both are very nice in the way music sound through them. Listening to Patricia Barber 'Monday Night - Live at the Green Mill Vol. 2' now. I just love it. The piano and instruments coming through very clearly and with authority. Patricia's voice is just magic.
  
 RCA 6AS7G

  
 RCA 6AS7GA


----------



## UntilThen

My listening room


----------



## Shaffer

This is mine:



The CD racks are on the other side of the room.


----------



## UntilThen

rebus are those records? that's an amazing collection.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> rebus are those records? that's an amazing collection.




Thank you so much. Only took about 40 years. No thrift store junk, over 90% of the LPs were opened by me, _many_ first pressings, audiophile reissues, promos, imports, blah, blah, blah. As if you can't tell, I'm quite proud. [blush]


----------



## HeatFan12

Great stuff guys!!!  Beautiful!!!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 That is an impressive vinyl collection Shaffer!!!


----------



## JohnBal

shaffer said:


> This is mine:
> 
> 
> 
> The CD racks are on the other side of the room.


 
 Very nice Shaffer! My first guess was that your speakers are Duntech. But now I'm not so sure. Hmmm...


----------



## Shaffer

johnbal said:


> Very nice Shaffer! My first guess was that *your speakers are Duntech*. But now I'm not so sure. Hmmm...




You're very close! Like Duntech, they were designed by John Dunlavy. Hence, they're Dunlavy SC-IV, produced, after John started his own company post-Duntech.


----------



## JohnBal

Of course... Very nice. I'm green with envy.


----------



## UntilThen

It would be very nice on a winter night to sit back with a glass of good red wine and just listen to the music. Your listening room is certainly set up for that.
  
 Those records are priceless now and that giant full stander speaker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will share a fav piece of mine.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks for sharing that UT!
  
 Yeah, that listening room is outstanding Shaffer!!
  
 Well UT, brought the big boy out today to play to start the weekend off.  lol...
  
 Bendix 6080WB & Tung Sol 6SN7GT (mouse ears).  This combo can even give the DT880s some bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Nice !!! 
  
 I was just looking for Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears. Those Bendix are very hard to find. You wouldn't have an extra one to sell would you lol.
  
 I'm 50% closer to an Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 ok just bought a mouse ear. I hope Mikey is all it's claim to be


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Nice !!!
> 
> I was just looking for Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears. Those Bendix are very hard to find. You wouldn't have an extra one to sell would you lol.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks!
  
 The mouse ears come up every now and then.  The Bendix rare nowadays.  You need two for the Elise.  lol  Did you see the lot of 118 6SN7s?  Tube rollers dream
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lot-of-118-tested-6sn7gt-6sn7gta-6sn7gtb-tubes-sylvania-rca-ge-cbs-tung-sol-/391220162801?hash=item5b1689f0f1


----------



## UntilThen

118 lol.
  
 What do you think of the ShuGuang CV181-Z 6SN7. 2 pcs for US$129. Do you have it.


----------



## HeatFan12

lol.  118....That's a lot of tubes.  Some nice TSs in there as well as a Bendix 6SN7.
  
  
 I sold a lot of 70 6SN7s back in 2010.  The last hour was crazy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Nope, don't have the SG CV181.  Heard good things but 129 beans is a bit steep.  The Elise takes pairs and there are many out there that can compete and have great sound under 50 beans for a pair.  IMO of course.  Climbing the ladder is always great and you enjoy the ride more.  The TSRP is the creme of the crop 6SN7, but what fun is starting there.  lol
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7GT-VT231-B65-TUNG-SOL-MATCHED-QUAD-NIB-TUBES-BLACK-GLASS-ROUND-PLATES-MICA-/181825823242?hash=item2a55a9e20a
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm not spending 4 tubes that cost more than the Elise lol.
  
 So what is a good pair of drivers out there for 50 beans. Likewise power tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> I'm not spending 4 tubes that cost more than the Elise lol.
> 
> So what is a good pair of drivers out there for 50 beans. Likewise power tubes.




Heh, the stock tubes are good; it's not a Chinese amp. I'd suggest living with them at least through the breakin process, and then going from there. FWIW, we've found a wide range of tubes to work very well with the amp, ranging from GECs to JAN Chathams to RCA 6080 that can be had for less than $15/pair, and Russian 6N13S that are also very inexpensive. As far as upgraded drivers, I like 7N7 and 7AF7, 6SN7 Tung-Sols - I paid ~$20 for the pair - and a range of 6SN7 CBS tubes. Stop by the thread. Many very experienced tube folks there. FWIW, I've never paid even close to $50 for a pair of drivers, but may, if there's a reason to.


----------



## HeatFan12

Shaff is on the money.  Stock tubes will suit you well.  Save the TSRP for 1000 beans for later....lol
  
 I would have jumped on the Elise when it first came out, but too many amps already.  With the two 6AS7s and 6SN7s as complement, it would have been right up my alley, with no tubes for me to purchase at all...ever.  Throw in all the adapters I have, it would have been a sweeeet addition.
  
 But must refrain.


----------



## UntilThen

Ain't I lucky to get advice from 2 seasoned head-fiers. Thanks a bunch mate.
  
 So it's Elise with stock tubes till she completes the marathon. Sounds good to me. It's rare to find tub amps that sounds good with the stock tubes.
  
 HF never say never. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Christmas isn't that far away. You must plan for the Elise to be under the Christmas tree. Well that's my plan anyway.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Ain't I lucky to get advice from 2 seasoned head-fiers. Thanks a bunch mate.
> 
> So it's Elise with stock tubes till she completes the marathon. Sounds good to me. It's rare to find tub amps that sounds good with the stock tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 LOL!  The Elise is calling your name UT!
  
 Will you be selling the DV to get it?
  
 No adapters for you yet?  They have dropped in price last few weeks.
  
 Threw in an RCA 6AS7G & Siemens ECC88/6DJ8.  Good times!!!


----------



## UntilThen

No man I'm not selling the Darkvoice. Had it not been for the DV I wouldn't even know about Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Haven't bought any adapters but got a few tubes.
  
 Aside from the 2 Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top and Hewlett Packard 6080W and Dumont 6080WA NOS NIB, I've gotten these:-
  
 4 RCA 6SN7GTB Coin base
 Tung Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears
 2 GE 6AS7GA JAN from Parts Express. These are new and only $11.74 each.
  
 Ok no more buying until I have those tubes and try it.
  
 Siemens ECC88 ! You have all the goodies.
  
 Btw I'm enjoying the DV so much I'm listening to Richard Claydeman all morning. Lovely piano playing and orchestra. All that equipment and tubes buying is for this purpose enjoying the music.


----------



## HeatFan12

Nice UT,

Building up that tube stash. You'll have many different combos to try. I guess you did win that coin base auction. Lol. Tube shopping is addictive. But the DV tube complement is future proof if you get the Elise. Good planning on all accounts. 


Sent from my iPad Mini 3 from Ultrasone planet


----------



## Shaffer

The DV lives! No idea what happened, but it works again. So far, so good. 

Come to think of it, it may have come alive due to the new power cord I just built with wire from San Alamos National Laboratory. I'm joking, of course. but I did build the cord with their wire and it's on the DV right now.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm so happy for you Shaffer. I do love the Darkvoice. It's the only tube amp I have. It's my first tube amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And boy am I hooked on the warm lush sound through my hd650.
  
 but ....I'm reading up on the Elise lol. This is what tube amps does to you. You want to try more tube amps.


----------



## HeatFan12

Great to hear the DV has come alive Shaffer!
  
 Where you at UT?!?
  
 To celebrate this thread still kickin' and my nine year head-fi wallet draining anniversary, a little Syl 6SN7WGTA.
  
  
 Also, have some goodies coming this week.  Different tubes to try out with adapters.  Have never tried the ones I have incoming but should work with my 6CG7 adapter.
  
 Good Times!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Hmmm that's a good one right the Sylvania brown base W series.
  
 I have 2 other items on bid. A Sylvania brown base and 2 RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT231 haha. Will let you know if I get it.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Hmmm that's a good one right the Sylvania brown base W series.
> 
> I have 2 other items on bid. A Sylvania brown base and 2 RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT231 haha. Will let you know if I get it.


 
  
  
 Yeah, the Sylvania brown base WGTA fluctuates in prices through the years.  Solid tube and very balanced.  This listing is a bit steep, but you can get them for around 20-30 each.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Sylvania-6SN7WGTA-ECC32-Brown-Base-tubes-Test-NEW-/201350054125?hash=item2ee16600ed
  
  
 If you're serious about keeping the DV, you gotta look into the adapters UT.  They have dropped in prices lately and the tubes you can use are like 2-3 beans each and sound delicious.  7N7/7AF7 & 6CG7/6GU7 adapters.
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## Shaffer

Thank you very much the kind words, guys. Thrilled hardly describes how I feel; it's great to have the DV back in action. As if a preminition of sorts, I bought a bunch of singles over the weekend - 6AS7Gs and 6SN7s - hoping to find a match in the future, but now they're all going into the DV, Figure I have enough pairs for the Elise.

Yes, tube amps I addictive. Literally. At this very moment, I'm considering selling my V200 and buying another tube amp. Do I really need it? Of course not. I'd be much better off putting the funds into a T1, but they don't glow and there aren't a bazillion of fun [tube] permutations to roll. Too many choices, too little money. lol


----------



## UntilThen

I haven't seen any 7n7 that are 2-3 beans each. Are we looking at the same eBay lol.


----------



## UntilThen

If I don't get these I'll buy the adapters and 7n7 tube(s)


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer buy the T1 or HD800. Elise and DV are enough.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> Thank you very much the kind words, guys. Thrilled hardly describes how I feel; it's great to have the DV back in action. As if a preminition of sorts, I bought a bunch of singles over the weekend - 6AS7Gs and 6SN7s - hoping to find a match in the future, but now they're all going into the DV, Figure I have enough pairs for the Elise.
> 
> Yes, tube amps I addictive. Literally. At this very moment, I'm considering selling my V200 and buying another tube amp. Do I really need it? Of course not. I'd be much better off putting the funds into a T1, but they don't glow and there aren't a bazillion of fun [tube] permutations to roll. Too many choices, too little money. lol


 
  
  
 Great to hear Shaff......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Tube amps are fun indeed.  When you buy a SS amp, you just plug it in and that's it.  lol
  
 If these tubes I have incoming are a good fit, it will open up many more possibilities and the craziness will get crazier!!!
  
  
  


untilthen said:


> I haven't seen any 7n7 that are 2-3 beans each. Are we looking at the same eBay lol.


 
  
  
 Wow, the 7N7s have gone up in prices dramatically.  The sellers are reading this thread.  Hahahaha
  
 6CG7 & 6GU7s are still fairly low though.
  
 You get those VT231's you will be all set for the Elise....


----------



## Shaffer

HF12, can't wait to see what you come up with!

BTW, which adapters do you recommend for the 6CG7 & 6GU7? Can the same adapters be used for 6DJ8/6922?

UT, yea, 7N7 aren't dirt cheap, but can be had for a reasonable amount. Look for the ones that have a similar appearance to a chrome dome, but they're all good. I've been playing with 7AF7s and they're even better, but not cheap. You can get lucky, though. I usually opt for some decent used tubes (read: inexpensive) to see if I like the sound, and if I do, I then go for something a bit substantial (read: much more expensive).


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> HF12, can't wait to see what you come up with!
> 
> BTW, which adapters do you recommend for the 6CG7 & 6GU7? Can the same adapters be used for 6DJ8/6922?
> 
> UT, yea, 7N7 aren't dirt cheap, but can be had for a reasonable amount. Look for the ones that have a similar appearance to a chrome dome, but they're all good. I've been playing with 7AF7s and they're even better, but not cheap. You can get lucky, though. I usually opt for some decent used tubes (read: inexpensive) to see if I like the sound, and if I do, I then go for something a bit substantial (read: much more expensive).


 
  
  
 I just checked my ebay and I purchased (2) 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapters from ayumitubes back in Aug 2012.  There are a lot of different vendors now.  Ayumitubes was the adapter mack daddy back then.  Yes, you can use 6CG7, 6GU7, 6922/6DJ8.  The tubes I have incoming are for this adapter.
  
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X6CG7+to+6sn7+adapter.TRS0&_nkw=6CG7+to+6sn7+adapter&_sacat=0
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Shaffer

^^^ Thank you! Always great to have a recommendation from an experienced audiophile.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> ^^^ Thank you! Always great to have a recommendation from an experienced audiophile.


 
  
  
 Teamwork it's what it's all about Shaff.  Maximizing what we have to make it sound great  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If you ever get that adapter, I'll send you a 6CG7 and 6GU7 tube to try it out.  On the DV house fund.  Yours to keep.  Shipping on me.
  
 You too UT....One of each.  I think you wrote a few pages back it's winter where you live now.  You might be on the other side of the planet.  Sorry, winter is a season that escapes us down here.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Don't know too much about it.  Haven't done intl shipping in a while but I'm sure it'll be fun.
  
 What better way to celebrate my ninth year anniversary!!!


----------



## UntilThen

HF....Oh me goose. How generous of you. If you ever come to Sydney let me know I'll show you around. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Looks like I have to buy those adapters. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway thanks to you 2 regarding what tubes to buy. I have bought so many but none arrived yet. I guess when they say shipping cost they really mean it will arrived by ship !!!
  
 Nah I can't let you pay for shipping. I'll refund you.


----------



## UntilThen

The seller list this as '*1PC 6CG7 TO 6SN7 6N8P CV181 Valve Tube Socket converter adapter' **but on the photo it says 6fq7 to 6sn7**.*
  
*Is this the correct adapter?*


----------



## Shaffer

I ordered an adapter. Let me also say, publicly, that HF12 exemplifies what the spirit of community is all about. Thank you, sir.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks for the kind words guys!!!  My pleasure indeed!!!!!  Community all the way!!....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 That adapter should work UT.  I would send a message to the seller to confirm.  I use the 6GU7 with the 6CG7 adapter.  Per tube world "most 6CG7 have INTERNAL ELECTROSTATIC SHIELD between the plates, the 6FQ7 does not have this shield".
  
http://www.tubeworld.com/6fq7.htm
  
  
 Have another goodie coming in a little bit....Gotta finish cleaning the pad first though...


----------



## UntilThen

HF I ordered these adapters. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Show us your other goodie(s)


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer this might help you in your DarkVoice 336se mod.
  
 http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps


----------



## HeatFan12

Outstanding UT!  More and more tube rolling possibilities!!!!!  Loctal, Octal, Noval....we'll try 'em all....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 On this Sunday, I have brought out the little almighty one..lol.....2C51/5670/396A w/ adapter of course....GE 5-Star 5670....I kinda like adapters....


----------



## UntilThen

Exciting lol. This driver is really tiny. Btw how does the 7N7, 6CG7 and this little almighty one sound compared to the 6SN7GTB. Just general impressions.
  
 Not wanting to compare to the expensive 6SN7, just the normal 6SN7GTB.


----------



## UntilThen

I've won this bid !!!   but missed out on the VT231s.
*Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT Tube Black Plates*


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Shaffer this might help you in your DarkVoice 336se mod.
> 
> http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps




Excellent! Much appreciated.




untilthen said:


> I've won this bid !!!   but missed out on the VT231s.
> [COLOR=333333]*Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT Tube Black Plates*[/COLOR]




Congratulations. Should be a great sounding tube.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Outstanding UT!  More and more tube rolling possibilities!!!!!  Loctal, Octal, Noval....we'll try 'em all....
> 
> On this Sunday, I have brought out the little almighty one..lol.....2C51/5670/396A w/ adapter of course....GE 5-Star 5670....I kinda like adapters....




I'm getting to like adapters, as well. I take it this tube is a dual triode? Very curious as to your impressions. FWIW, I like the 5-star bottles, too.


----------



## UntilThen

HF and Shaffer I'm about to order the Elise. Just email Lukasz.  
  
 It's been just 1 week and 4 days since I came on this thread. I think I bought my DV only less than a month ago. It's the tubes !!!
  
 HF rest assure I'll still hang around to help you keep this thread alive !


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> :bigsmile_face:  HF and Shaffer I'm about to order the Elise. Just email Lukasz.




Congratulations! I'm sure you'll find that it compliments the DV in the fun factor. It's really nice to have both. 



> It's been just 1 week and 4 days since I came on this thread. I think I bought my DV only less than a month ago.* It's the tubes* !!!




Tell me about it! Actually, tell my wife. lol



> HF rest assure I'll still hang around to help you keep this thread alive !




I'm not gong anywhere, either.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi folks,
  
 The pleasure just keeps growing listening to 'Stairways to Heaven' Led Zeppelin on the Darkvoice and HD650 with RCA 6SA7GA and RCA 6SN7.
 I'm still thinking that getting the Darkvoice 336se is a milestone in my Head-Fi journey. Paid AUD$260 for a used but pristine condition and burn in unit with no hum on any of the tubes
 that came with it. You can still get great sound for not much money.
  
 But my thoughts are of Elise. The excitement grows lol.


----------



## UntilThen

HF do you have a Mullard ECC32? or ECC31


----------



## Shaffer

ATM, I'm playing Holotrop - a German Dark Ambient outfit who is not afraid of low bass - with an Oppo105 feeding the DV. I rolled a NOS JAN medium bottle with tinted glass (first one I've seen) Sylvania 7N7 that was ordered for the signals core in the mid-40s and a JAN RCA 6080WA from '52. This 7N7 actually lights up. I mean, one can actually see the glow from the listening couch. Another first. The sound? Incisive, detailed, full-bodied, and surprisingly dynamic. This amp, for the money, is almost unbelievable.


----------



## UntilThen

You're tempting me to buy the 7N7 Shaffer !!! May I know how much for both power and driver tubes. They looked expensive to me.
  
 You must post pictures of the tubes


----------



## UntilThen

Is yours like these?


----------



## UntilThen

Hmm this at US$27 is not too bad.
  

  
 but I'm waiting for mine to arrive this NOS NIB...


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> You're tempting me to buy the 7N7 Shaffer !!! May I know how much for both power and driver tubes. They looked expensive to me.
> 
> You must post pictures of the tubes :bigsmile_face:




I'm a horrible photographer. Really. It's embarrassing.

I bought a batch of 6 JAN RCA 6080 a few months ago. Most were from '52 and one from '48. IIRC, I paid ~$30 for the lot. They're physically smaller than JAN RCA 6080WA (same designation) manufactured ~6 years later and don't sound the same. In fact, these tubes are the smallest 6080 I've seen. It's as if they're 8/10 scale.

RCA 6080 can be had for as little as $12/pair shipped. Fairly recently, too. I got some. The bases weren't mint, but the tubes tested very well and nothing was loose. They sound terrific. 

I paid $13 shipped for the NOS JAN 7N7. The tubes can be purchased quite reasonably, if one is willing to buy singles. Good quality matched sets are ~$30. If you just want to try some out, a non-NOS tested pair is ~$15. The 7N7 was mostly manufactured by Sylvania, and some by NU. There were supposed to be 2 variations of the design from Sylvania, going on what I've read, but so far I've found 3. Can't say the sound differs significantly, but as all humans tend to do, it's not difficult to establish a preference.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Is yours like these?




Taller with more chrome.

I'd love to hear the Dumont 6080 you just got.

Edit: typo


----------



## UntilThen

Both the Dumont and this HP I bought for US$19.90 each. I am proceeding cautiously without spending a bomb. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 But shipping cost is a killer for me. US$13 on the average !!!


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> *The sound? Incisive, detailed, full-bodied, and surprisingly dynamic. This amp, for the money, is almost unbelievable.*


 
  
 At least I'm not hallucinating when I felt the warm spreading within me listening to Diana Krall and Tracy Chapman. I love female vocals and this amp and my hp combo makes it so special.


----------



## UntilThen

My 1st tubes arrived and it's lovely. Sound crystal sparkling clear and alive. Best among my driver tubes I've heard so far. NOS NIB match pair date 1958. Green lettering. It's gleaming. And no hum at all. For US$32 the pair I think very good.
  

  

  

  
 2nd tube has a very faint hum but after 5 songs from Pink Floyd it disappear


----------



## Shaffer

Very nice tubes. May I ask where you bought them?


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer I got them from eBay this seller User ID brhines2012.
  
 The packaging is impressive. May not be NIB but nearly new. See his wrapping.


----------



## HeatFan12

Where we at guys!!!!!    Man, I've missed this thread.  Too much work work work...
  
 Catching up now on the posts.  Some fine looking tubes indeed!!!  Looks like some fine Sylvania love for you UT.


----------



## UntilThen

The chrome top is so shining it's a mirror lol. Green lettering 100%


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> The chrome top is so shining it's a mirror lol. Green lettering 100%




You've inspired me. I'm running a Sylvania 6SN7GTA with a Sylvania 6AS7G (black plates) in the DV.

Why is that the smaller the tube, the bigger the box? Received a Tung Sol short bottle today (and I mean _short_). So short that the getter extends pretty far into its base. Of course, it came in a box big enough for full-size headphones. Never fails. lol


----------



## UntilThen

That is a nice Sylvania pairing that you've got there. Short tubes are cute. Don't know why the big packaging. To cushion it I suppose.
Well 2 power tubes arrive today for me. This is exciting. 




  
First up the shortest and smallest 6080 I've seen, the Dumont with the WA suffix. The sound is not small tho. In fact I felt more bass with this shortie and at the same time open airy top and mids.
Unfortunately my shining Sylvania 6SN7GTB that came yesterday and was playing without hum started to hum today with the Dumont. 
  
With this pairing of Dumont 6080WA and my old and trusty Motorola 6SN7GTB, there's no hum. Whisper quiet. I might try the new Sylvania 6SN7GTB with the old power tube RCA JAN 6AS7G. This combo was quiet yesterday for several hours.
  
Below my Dumont and Motorola driver combo. No hum at all.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> [...]
> 
> First up the shortest and smallest 6080 I've seen, the Dumont with the WA suffix. The sound is not small tho. In fact I felt more bass with this shortie and at the same time open airy top and mids.
> Unfortunately my shining Sylvania 6SN7GTB that came yesterday and was playing without hum started to hum today with the Dumont.




It sounds like its size is similar to the very short CRC 6080WA I spoke about earlier in the thread. Any idea when it was made? Cool find.

A shame about the hum. Perhaps more burnin might help.


----------



## UntilThen

I have no idea when it's made.
  
 This is the other power tube that came today. Hewlett Packard 6080. Similarly the bass is good so is the soundstage. A good alternative to the ever popular RCA 6AS7G and cheaper. At $19.90 can't complain.
  
 HP 6080 with Motorola 6SN7GTB and my improvise tubes stand.


----------



## UntilThen

Guess what? The hum disappear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top is back in action again. Happiness. And listening to 'Nine million bicycles' by Katie Melua.


----------



## UntilThen

Where you at Jesse ?!?!
  
 My order for the Elise is through. 6 weeks I was told but I am not in a hurry. I've the Darkvoice 336se for only 15 days lol.


----------



## HeatFan12

LOL!!!!!  Good stuff M.
  
 Too much work this week, but come tonight, I'm off for a few days and the rolling will continue, as well as getting fully caught up with the thread!!!
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## HeatFan12

Where you guys at...UT & Shaff?!?  I know, I know...The Elise...Hahaha  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lots of great combos in the last few days I see...UT have you received that brown base Sylvania?
  
 I received some inexpensive 6V goodies...
  
 To stay with the Sylvania vibe, tonight a Syl 6AS7G & 6BQ7A/6BZ7 driver.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi HF,
  
 Great to hear from you. I didn't know you can use 6BQ7A/6BZ7 as drivers. So another possibility.
  
 I'm waiting on the Sylvania Gold Brand Brown base as well as the Tung Sol mouse ears and 4 RCA coin base. And 2 GE JAN 6AS7GA at $11 each new haha.
 The pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Top green lettering hums every now and then. I don't understand. I have occasions when they don't hum at all. Tried pairing with
 different power tubes, I can't pick out any pattern that would cause hum. When it doesn't hum, they sound sweet, clear and musical. They are near new. Perhaps need more burn in?
  
 Yes I'm pretty excited now waiting for the Elise. I have 3 drawers ready for my tubes collection lol. You inspired me with your drawers.


----------



## UntilThen

HF,
  
 I've always wanted to ask you. Which is your fav amp in your collection? I imagine it's the Woo Wa2.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Hi HF,
> 
> Great to hear from you. I didn't know you can use 6BQ7A/6BZ7 as drivers. So another possibility.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks UT, back at you.  I ordered several 6v tubes to see how they fare with the adapters.  It's all about the possibilities..lol....They sound great.  A lot of clarity and the extension is great as well as soundstage...I also have some 6BZ8, 6BK7B, 6BS8 still to try as well.
  
 Get them drawers ready....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  


untilthen said:


> HF,
> 
> I've always wanted to ask you. Which is your fav amp in your collection? I imagine it's the Woo Wa2.


 
  
  
 Hmmmm...I have come to the conclusion that I have become a collector after so many years...lol....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Resale value nowadays with so many new products coming out is crazy.  Might as well keep them instead of taking a big hit.  I truly enjoy them all.
  
 The WA2 is a beast and with Senns and Beyers it is amazing.  Throw in four inputs and a pre-out and it is a truly versatile amp (I also use the pre-out with my powered monitors).  Lower impedance phones do sound good, but the WA2 shines with higher impedance cans.  I am waiting for my resistance adapter to use with my OTL amps and let's see what happens.  Also, looking to get the the 6922 to 6SN7 adapters to use my 6SN7s in there as well.  I think I like adapters...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My Singlepower amps can handle both low z and hi z phones with no probs and sound great.  Folks don't usually post about them due to the big fallout with the developer/seller years ago.  A lot of drama and many folks were out thousands of dollars due to him disappearing with everybody's money.  I purchased mine before everything happened and still have them.
  
 All my adapters (drivers) can be used with my SP amps as well as my DV.  They are all based around the 6SN7.  The adapters that I can only use exclusively with one amp is the 5687 ones with the MPX3 SLAM.  It takes 5687s as power tubes or 6SN7s.
  
  
 PPX3 SLAM (5687s power, 6SN7 driver) & WA2 & Extreme (6080 power, 6SN7 driver)
  

  
  
  
 MPX3 SLAM with three 6SN7s (two as power and one driver)
  

  
  
 MPX3 SLAM with 5687s and 6CG7 as driver
  

  
  
  
 The DV was my first tube amp and the one that started the madness and it will always be special.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Oh wow HF I just had a crash course lesson in some very good tube amps. I google SinglePower PPX3 Slam. You have a gold mine in your inventory. You have working versions in mint condition. Now I remember a review done by Skylab where he rank the Singlepower 1st of 4 amps he did a comparison review. 2nd was the DarkVoice 337.
  
 Alright you don't need the Elise. You have too much good stuff already lol.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks UT!
  
 Skylab was the one that started me on the 6SN7 journey...lol
  
 I purchased my SP Extreme from a local head-fier.  Basically brand new.  He came to the house and we fired her up.  I had a few headphones ready.  Within 10 minutes I paid him.  We just don't bring those amps up around here due to what happened.  A lotta folks still own them.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

They look very good on the photo flanking the Woo. I bet they sound amazing and you had great enjoyment over the years. Can't imagine how many tubes you've by now lol.


----------



## Shaffer

I always wondered about Singlepower. Very nice amps you have there, as well, HF.

Since the time I was a little boy, I've had two lifelong interests: music/audio and cars/driving. Got a job at Radio Shack in high school, as I used to hang around the store so much, and rode my bike to the more exclusive audio salons. Believe me when I tell you that I was the only person there under the age of 40. Some played my records for me, other just ignored my presence. By the time 1986 rolled around, I was working on my post-grad and could actually afford to buy a used entry-level high-performance system. Flash forward 10 years, and I had a far more exclusive rig, after moving up in the ranks, no doubt helped by industry accommodation pricing, and continued working in the business, on and off. 

By the time children rolled around - my wife is younger than I am - I finally took a job that was offered for years, but still continued to work part-time with audio, mostly setting-up turntables. Stopped a while back. Then, a few years ago, I bought DT990pro on a whim and it all went downhill from there. lol

For reasons I have yet to understand, the bulk of audio folks in my acquaintance literally sneer at headphones. No idea why, as a well-composed HP rig can equal and surpass the resolution of a $100K system, of course without the soundstage and the pressurized room. Just last night a friend came over. I slapped K7XX on his head fed by the Elise (Tung-Sol/Chatham NOS all-around), fired up one of his favorite albums on the turntable, and ... his reaction was, "Meh." Mind you, he's wildly impressed with my main system. I think this sounded better in some ways. I guess my point is, it's going to take more than great sound to incorporate very serious listeners into our fold, if it ever happens. Everyone is too old and set in their ways. My hope is that some of the kids we see around here will eventually embrace quality sound and change the upper end of the industry for the better.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Alright you don't need the Elise. You have too much good stuff already lol.




What do you mean he doesn't need an Elise? Wait 'till you hear it.


----------



## UntilThen

You hear that HeatFan?  Better start making room in your head-fi stand. In 6 weeks time I'll be singing the blues from down under.
 You'll be getting a 5000 words commentary from me.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks Shaff!
  
 Indeed, it's difficult to make folks understand about headphones.  They come over and ask "why can't you just plug those headphones straight into the computer.  Do you really need those little bottles sticking up like that on fire".  lol   Good times
  
 I don't even look towards the Elise thread....Haha....It will definitely get me in trouble...I'll start reading and I'm done....Sending an email about questions...Gotta stay away....lol
  
 Looking forward to you receiving it UT...Gonna be fun....
  
 Just finished listening to this album and it reminded me about Tina doing the cover...This girl can play
  
  

  
  
  
 A little PF from her also
  

  
  
  
 And Juliette as well on a sunny Sat afternoon


----------



## UntilThen

Having a love for music enrich our lives. That invariably leads to our fascination and careful selection of gear to setup our own sound system. It's a hobby well worth being passionate about. Many have exotic home systems. Others are passionate about their car sound system of which I'm guilty of just a few years ago when my work involved much travelling over long distance. Music then makes me love those long drives which otherwise I would have hated. Yes I did spend quick a bit on a professionally installed system of Dynaudio splits and Morel Ultimo sub in my new car.
  
 I got involved with head fi only in May this year. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My son bought an Aune T1 and I thought it's cute that it had a single tiny tube on top of it. Had a quick listen to it with his PSB M4U2 headphone and I wanted something similar too. Sounds way better than a simple earbud. My 1st purchase was the DT880 Pro followed by the o2+odac and I was convinced that was all I need haha. I bought 2 other headphones after that. The Audio Technica at-m50x and the Senn hd650 all within 3 weeks. I started going through my music held as lossless files in iTunes. I have 2 boxes of CDs some audiophile recordings from the car crazed audio system days. I was amazed then how good this humble setup sounds. After I came back from holidays with my wife at the end of July I bought the Darkvoice from an advert placed in the local head fi forum. That was how I got into this thread. I learn a new word ...tube rolling. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I cannot believe how adding a 2nd hand $260 tube amp would take the wow factor to the next level. I was well and trully hooked and started wicked thoughts about wanting the La Figaro.
  
 I hope I'll slow down after Elise. Maybe another headphone next year haha. This will be a fun musical journey from here on and I'm privileged to have met both of you.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> And Juliette as well on a sunny Sat afternoon




I looove this!!


----------



## HeatFan12

Great to have met you too UT!!!  The journey is an awesome one.  Now don't leave us when the Elise arrives...lol...Shaff has had his and he still rocks this thread.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yeah Shaff, Juliette puts her own spin on the solo...Good stuff indeed!
  
  
 Threw in a new little goodie I received that I have never tried....Excellent!!!
  
 A little Emily while I take a pic and burn her in a bit more..Haha


----------



## UntilThen

Amazing. I love drum solos now I love her guitar playing.


----------



## Shaffer

I have a Raytheon 6AS7G and a CBC 6SN7 with a side-getter in the DV. The thing is lit up like a Christmas tree.


----------



## UntilThen

I want it NOW.


----------



## UntilThen

Shaff did you ever get hum on the Elise or is this problem only manifested in the Darkvoice? My new Sylvania still hums on odd occasions when I swap tubes. There has been occasions when after swapping it's dead silent. Pretty erratic huh? I'll leave it on now for several hours to see if it will go away.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Shaff did you ever get hum on the Elise or is this problem only manifested in the Darkvoice? My new Sylvania still hums on odd occasions when I swap tubes. There has been occasions when after swapping it's dead silent. Pretty erratic huh? I'll leave it on now for several hours to see if it will go away.




No hum in the Elise - dead silent. I do get some hum with the DV, depending on the driver. Other than burnin, try gently moving the tube within the socket. Sometimes that helps, especially if the hum is one channel and the tube has some hours on it.


----------



## UntilThen

Good to know that Elise is silent. I'll try your suggestion otherwise will keep the Sylvanias till the new amp comes.


----------



## HeatFan12

Where we at guys!!!.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Been throwing in some other replacements on that 6CG7 adapter that I had never used before and the results are very good.....More and more possibilities.....I want to thank you both....If it not for all the talk of the 6CG7/6GU7 adapter, I would have never looked for nor discovered these new tubes that can be used.


----------



## UntilThen

huh are you saying we can use other tubes on the 6CG7/6GU7 adapter? do tell which ones


----------



## UntilThen

Listening to Famous Blue Raincoat by Jennifer Warnes with HE560 on DV using Dumont 6080WA and Motorola 6SN7GTB. This planar magnetic headphone is starting to impress me. So crystal clear, utter sweet vocals and tight bass. And the DV is driving it no problem at 11 o'clock.
  
 This is head bobbing fun.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> huh are you saying we can use other tubes on the 6CG7/6GU7 adapter? do tell which ones


 
  
  
 Yes sir!!!  Sounding good indeed!!  The TS 6BK7B in action down there!


----------



## UntilThen

Ummm that glow I want.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Ummm that glow I want.


 
  
  
 Like this one?!?  6GU7 drivers on the WA2.
  
 Hahaha...We are gonna have fun til your Elise gets here!!


----------



## UntilThen

You don't need a christmas tree now. Just light these up on Christmas eve. How did I get so hooked on tube amps.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> You don't need a christmas tree now. Just light these up on Christmas eve. How did I get so hooked on tube amps.


 
  
  





    LOL!   Tubes are addictive UT!!


----------



## UntilThen

HF !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 DT880 with Darkvoice and those magical tubes sound awesome on this


----------



## HeatFan12

Oh Yeah UT!  Ellie & DV & DT880...Excellent match!!!


----------



## UntilThen

My feet is tapping non stop.
  
 I'm in a dilemma. Someone wants to buy my DT880 Pro. Should I keep proceeds for a T1 or DT880 600 ohm version? Seeing I suddenly like the DT880 as much as I do the HD650. Can one have so much fun in this hobby?


----------



## UntilThen

I think I'm in trouble.....
  
 - The DT880/600 has very neutral bass that extends deep and has good impact to it. The bass is also very layered and has gobs of texture.
  
 - The DT990/600 bass is very strong with lots of omph and impact. You loose some texturing and most of the layering IMO. The bass however is very tight and controlled. It also seems to cover the mids.
  
 - The T1 bass is like the DT880 bass, but on steroids. There is a lot more texture and detail in it and the layering is incredible. It also goes much deeper and has more impact to it.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> My feet is tapping non stop.
> 
> I'm in a dilemma. Someone wants to buy my DT880 Pro. Should I keep proceeds for a T1 or DT880 600 ohm version? Seeing I suddenly like the DT880 as much as I do the HD650. Can one have so much fun in this hobby?


 
  
  
 I hear ya UT.  DT880 is a clarity and detail monster.  You know that's the one I use to test tubes.  Tough call...Never listened to a T1.  Beyers I have DT770 & DT880.
  
 Yeah, you're in trouble...lol


----------



## Shaffer

I have DT880/600. Though the tube amps drive them very well, I still prefer my ss amps for additional clarity and transparency in the mids under such a high load.


----------



## Shaffer

BTW, have you guys tried a 6BL7 as a power tube? I have one in the DV now, along with CBS short bottle driver, and the sound is quite impressive. Albeit, with some dynamic limitations; the tube doesn't make much power. I run a pair in the Elise, but a single in the DV is doing a damn fine job with HD600s. Low bass is lacking, but that's about it. The tonal balance and texture are outright seductive.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> BTW, have you guys tried a 6BL7 as a power tube? I have one in the DV now, along with CBS short bottle driver, and the sound is quite impressive. Albeit, with some dynamic limitations; the tube doesn't make much power. I run a pair in the Elise, but a single in the DV is doing a damn fine job with HD600s. Low bass is lacking, but that's about it. The tonal balance and texture are outright seductive.


 
  
  
 Hmmm.  No sir...I haven't tried it.  You use two on the Elise?  So Elise can rock 6SN7s & 6BL7s?


----------



## UntilThen

No I haven't tried 6BL7 and I'm thinking hard about what you said regarding dt880 600 ohm. Just wondering what about T1.
  
 oh ok 'drives them very well but 'preference'' gotcha.


----------



## UntilThen

This arrives today Sylvania Gold brand 6SN7WGT brown base. Definitely a cut above the other drivers that I've got and no hum. 
 Listening to the same track again 'Lights' by Elle and I hear more of everything. I think it's worth my $27.


----------



## HeatFan12

That's the one I asked about a few pages back, if you had received it.  Excellent tube.  I love the WGTs.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh ok thanks for verifying. I thought it's my imagination lol. It sounds good and in good condition.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> No I haven't tried 6BL7 and I'm thinking hard about what you said regarding dt880 600 ohm. Just wondering what about T1.
> 
> oh ok 'drives them very well but 'preference'' gotcha.




6BL7s as power tubes in the Elise, as in the DV, but not drivers.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> No I haven't tried 6BL7 and I'm thinking hard about what you said regarding dt880 600 ohm. Just wondering what about T1.
> 
> *oh ok 'drives them very well but 'preference'' gotcha.*




Exactly. I spent a lot of time with the the tube amps and the V200, along with DT880/600, over the last week. The more I listen, the more reluctant I am to drive a T1 with tubes, based on my experience with the DT880/600. I can see how many enjoy the sound, but I may prefer a slightly different presentation.


----------



## UntilThen

Staff that's valuable info. I know the Elise will drive the DT880 600ohm very well but what volume position did you have to put it up to for a comfortably loud listen. Not ear shattering but comfortably loud.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Staff that's valuable info. I know the Elise will drive the DT880 600ohm very well but what volume position did you have to put it up to for a comfortably loud listen. Not ear shattering but comfortably loud.




There's no shortage of power, just as with the DV. I simply prefer the sound of the cans with ss amps. Those who like a more lush presentation would definitely feel otherwise.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm a happy camper with your answer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm even happier now having won a bid for a new RCA 6AS7G for AUD$20.


----------



## UntilThen

I just discovered 6080 tubes generate more heat than 6AS7G.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> I just discovered 6080 tubes generate more heat than 6AS7G.




IIRC, 6080 draw 2.75A each vs 2.5A for 6AS7. I also think the metal base radiates more heat onto the chassis.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Shaffer for those figures.
  
 That confirms my findings when I touch the top metal plate of the DV. With 6080 tubes it's much hotter compared to 6AS7G. I have been using the 6080s a lot the last few days and I've been wondering why my DV felt so much hotter.


----------



## Shaffer

Last night I de-hummed a tube in my DV for the first time. Left it overnight with no power tube running, and got up this morning to a silent driver. Trying the same thing now with a new issue Tung Sol that hums a lot worse. Fingers crossed.


----------



## UntilThen

I await your findings with the Tung Sol. Might do the same with my humming Sylvanias. It's just that the brown base is left on mostly now because it's sounds better. I should have the Tung Sol mouse ears coming anytime soon. I'm thinking of getting a VT231 smoke glass or black glass Ken Rad or Sylvania. They are expensive but I need to hear for myself.


----------



## UntilThen

Are all 6AS7G the same? So far I have only experience RCA which are nice. I'm thinking about a pair of GE brand. I know the Chathams are popular but expensive. Looking for value here.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Are all 6AS7G the same? So far I have only experience RCA which are nice. I'm thinking about a pair of GE brand. I know the Chathams are popular but expensive. Looking for value here.




RCA made tubes for many other manufacturers, most easily recognized by grey plates. Personally, I prefer the black plate RCAs. Chathams are very good, as are the Russian tubes. I have a pair of early Sylvanias and a Raytheon that also sound very nice (black plates). Often, it's easier to find a bigger variety with 6080.


----------



## UntilThen

I hope I'm not colour blind. Is this black or grey plates?


----------



## Shaffer

Black plates, look like RCAs. I put the initial bid on them, but I won't compete with you.


----------



## UntilThen

Haha I didn't know it was you bidding. I'll see how it goes. Thanks. The thing with new tubes is you've to burn it in.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> Black plates, look like RCAs. I put the initial bid on them, but I won't compete with you.


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> Haha I didn't know it was you bidding. I'll see how it goes. Thanks. The thing with new tubes is you've to burn it in.


 
  
  
 Haha!!!  Two head-fiers in the same thread on the other side of the planet bidding on the same tubes.  Priceless!!!  That's the spirit guys...Awesome!!!
  
 You gotta start buying pairs now UT...lol


----------



## UntilThen

No I was told I can mix and match on the Elise


----------



## HeatFan12

True...what I meant the DV takes one of each where the Elise takes two of each.  Shopping for tubes for one each was much easier...Yeah, I used to buy matched pairs but really not worth it imo.  If a good deal comes up and the price is reasonable for both, I'll jump at it..


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> True...what I meant the DV takes one of each where the Elise takes two of each.  Shopping for tubes for one each was much easier...Yeah, I used to buy matched pairs but really not worth it imo.  If a good deal comes up and the price is reasonable for both, I'll jump at it..




That's one of the nice things about the DV - one driver tube. Sure makes tube shopping easier and much less pricey.

Personally, I buy pairs if I see a good deal. Mostly, though, I buy singles and match them later. UT, you have a choice: you can either spend countless hours studying tubes and still make an occasional mistake, or you can buy pre-sorted pairs. Now that I think about it, seems pretty clear which is easier.


----------



## UntilThen

Sigh I was outbid on this at $52 - Raytheon JAN 6SN7WGT ~50s. Good review from 6SN7 Reference site. I was a bit hesitant because there was not much info given about it's condition it's like taking a chance 
  
 Alright time to take it easy and wait for Elise to arrive. I'm quite sure I'll be buying in pairs from now on. I'll be selective too.


----------



## HeatFan12

There will be others UT.  No worries there.
  
 When you least expect it good deals come up.  I just checked a bid I won from June 2014 (last 6sn7s I've purchased).  Four random ones (Magnavox, Sylvania & RCA) sold 'as is'.  I was looking for 6gu7s and ran into the 6sn7s.  No bidders yet, four days left, so I put a 7.00 max bid and forgot about it, not expecting to win.  Four days later I received the wonderful 'You Won' e-mail...Price 4.35...Shipping 6.99...Couldn't believe it.
  
 Btw guys...Just received the resistance/impedance adapter to see how my lo-z phones fair with the OTL.  As well as some other goodies...


----------



## UntilThen

Ooooo what are they?
  
 I'm going to get this to clean the tube pins - DeoxIT Contact Cleaner & Rejuvenator - Solution Kit.
  
​


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Ooooo what are they?
> 
> I'm going to get this to clean the tube pins - DeoxIT Contact Cleaner & Rejuvenator - Solution Kit.
> 
> ​


 
  
  
 That is excellent UT!!!  Every time I put a tube in, I deoxit and the adapter bottom as well.  In time, the amp has like a built in lubricant...I just have the can one...That one is a nice all in one solution.  Looks great
  
 The arrivals today were from some tubes I was trying out last week.  Once I listened to the ones I had, I placed orders for pairs.  I had random ones but wanted to confirm they worked and sounded good first.
  
 Finding inexpensive tubes to rock the amp is something I love to do.  There's just so many out there, we have to explore.
  
 Last night and today...with the resistance adapter


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice HF. That photo with the Grado lovely. What driver tube is that on the last photo ?
  
 I suppose the 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 needs it's own adapter to 6SN7 ?


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Very nice HF. That photo with the Grado lovely. What driver tube is that on the last photo ?
> 
> I suppose the 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 needs it's own adapter to 6SN7 ?


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!
  
 The last photo is a CBS short bottle 6SN7GTB driver.
  
 The 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 uses the same adapter as the 6GU7 & 6CG7.  We make the most of what we have to get great sound....Adapters are a great investment imho...Good times!!!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm beginning to like this 6GU7 / 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter. It fits a lot of tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 That CBS is very short indeed. I think it will win the shortest tube award.


----------



## Shaffer

My adapter is now on its way from Flushing, NY. Hoping to have it by Saturday.

I also picked up a pair of 6922 adapters and a pair of Sovtek 6922s for the Elise. Of course, I'll also try the tube in the DV. Supposedly, we can also use the power tubes from the LDIII, with the adapters, as drivers in the Elise and I have a really fresh, pair pair. Good times ahead.

Do you know if the DV can drive an input tube with 750mA heater current requirement?


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> I'm beginning to like this 6GU7 / 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter. It fits a lot of tubes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 LOL...Here they are, not in action:


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> My adapter is now on its way from Flushing, NY. Hoping to have it by Saturday.
> 
> I also picked up a pair of 6922 adapters and a pair of Sovtek 6922s for the Elise. Of course, I'll also try the tube in the DV. Supposedly, we can also use the power tubes from the LDIII, with the adapters, as drivers in the Elise and I have a really fresh, pair pair. Good times ahead.
> 
> Do you know if the DV can drive an input tube with 750mA heater current requirement?


 
  
 You will love that adapter  Hmmm.....What tubes were you thinking of using Shaff, with 750mA?


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> LOL...Here they are, not in action:




Love CBS tubes. That particular pair was made by GE for CBS, I think. The side-getter GEs sound very good.



heatfan12 said:


> You will love that adapter  Hmmm.....What tubes were you thinking of using Shaff, with 750mA?




6N6P-ER or in Russion 6H6P-EP


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> Love CBS tubes. That particular pair was made by GE for CBS, I think. The side-getter GEs sound very good.
> 6N6P-ER or in Russion 6H6P-EP


 
  
  
 Well, I guess we gotta fiddle to find out if tubes work with our equipment.  I threw in a pair of LD MKIVSE stock power tubes (6H30Pi EH) in the WA2 as drivers with great results.  MIKELAP was running them, so I tried them out.  According to TTS they are not compatible with 6922/6DJ8 tubes in some equipment.
  
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6H30-Tube-Types/Electro-Harmonix-6H30Pi-Gold
  
 I will try them now with an adapter in my DV.  If it does not blow up, I'll post my results Shaff....lol...


----------



## UntilThen

BOOOOOM !!! HeatFan are you ok? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well all my tubes are being Deoxit ed !!!


----------



## HeatFan12

LOL UT!!!  Still here and kickin' it!!  I did take a step back once powering on...Hahahaha
  
 Looking good....Great collection!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Here ya go Shaff:
  
 6H30Pi EH (850mA).....Being spanked by the DV & an RCA 6AS7G.  Definitely more good times!!!!!.  Incredible guys....Sounds great!!!


----------



## UntilThen

The 6H30Pi is using the 6922 to 6SN7 adapter?


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> The 6H30Pi is using the 6922 to 6SN7 adapter?


 
  
  
 Yes sir...Same adapter...I use 6922/6DJ8 & 6GU7/6CG7 & 6BQ7A/6BZ7 & 6BK7B & 6BZ8 & 6BS8 & 6BC8 & 6H30Pi with the same adapter (6SN7 bottom)...AND...All these tubes fit in my WA2 without adapter...Same pinout as 6922/6DJ8 (stock driver tube on WA2).
 ..
  
 That's why I keep saying possibilities are crazy....Sooooo many options....For the DV, one adapter for all these tubes which sound great is priceless!!!!!!  Throw in the mack daddy 6SN7 as stock and you have a crazy amp that kicks some butt!!  The journey is awesome UT!!!
  
 The journey is what makes all this great!!!  We can all buy the end all be all tube....But there is no end all tube...There will always be options, likes, dislikes, compatibility, headphones, sources etc...Some of these tubes, I consulted with some folks and they had never tried them.  I said, let's do it and tried them out...Trial and error is what it's all about.  Amazing!!!


----------



## UntilThen

But TTS says they are not compatible...I wonder if there will be long term problems
  
 From TTS:-
*The new 6H30 tube from Electro-Harmonix.
 Please note that this tube can not be used in place of 6DJ8 or 6922 tubes in other pre-amps; it can only be used in equipment that is designed for it.

 The 6H30 tube type is generally not compatible with 6922 and ECC88 tube types.*


----------



## UntilThen

Btw Shaff I won the bid for the GE 6AS7G - $27 for the new pair. Pretty good don't you think so.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> But TTS says they are not compatible...I wonder if there will be long term problems
> 
> From TTS:-
> *The new 6H30 tube from Electro-Harmonix.
> ...


 
  
  
 That's the thing UT.  I read that and when I looked to my right the LD MKIV SE was saying to me "hey you took my power tubes and put them as drivers in two other amps"...  I said to her "well, no worries I will put that amp's drivers to be used as your power tubes and we can all get along...whadda you say"???  She agreed and we are now one big happy versatile tube family...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I took the 6H30Pi EH power tubes from the LD MKIV SE and put them in the WA2 and DV as drivers...Soooo, I returned the favor and put two 6922 drivers in the LD MKIV SE as power tubes...lol....Sounds great....I love this shiiiiiiiiiit!!!!!    All I read about this beforehand that it was not compatible and should not be done....Oh well!!!  Good times!!!
  
  
 Had to make sure all was well before I dressed her up again:
  
  

  
  
  
 Not as pretty as the 6H30Pi EH sticking outta the top of the bracket...But they work beautifully...Using WE 403As as drivers
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  


untilthen said:


> Btw Shaff I won the bid for the GE 6AS7G - $27 for the new pair. Pretty good don't you think so.


 
  
  
 I love those GEs!!!  Congratz......Teamwork!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Haha sounds fun swapping tubes between your amps. You have a lot of good tube amps ...a tube lover's dream.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Haha sounds fun swapping tubes between your amps. You have a lot of good tube amps ...a tube lover's dream.


 
  
  
 LOL!  Thanks UT!!
  
 The thing is, the common tube replacements for various amps is out the window.  Look at all the tubes we can use with one adapter with the DV.  Throw in a few different adapters (2c51/5670, 7n7/7af7) and versatility is crazy.  The tubes I have tried are inexpensive and that's the beauty of it.  I would have never thought to throw in 6922s as power tubes in my MKIVSE where they are used as stock driver tubes in the WA2.
  
 I was reading another tube rolling thread last week and I was like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can't remember if it was a Schiit or Project thread...They kept talking about a certain tube / tube combination and how it sounded great blah blah blah...A poster asked several times what tube they were talking about....Nothing....No responses...I read back a few pages thinking I missed something and they mentioned the tube, but nope.....The poster finally gave in and posted something to the effect of "so much secrecy in tube rolling in this thread"...
  
 I thought that was really sad....Why all the secrecy?  This is a community of sharing the love of audio.  Whether it be solid state or tubes or whatever floats our boat.....Why not share it if we make a great discovery....Crazy...Selfish, to be honest...


----------



## UntilThen

HF the world would be a better place with more of you and I immediately think of the song 'What a wonderful world' by Louis Armstrong.
  
 I've learn a lot this last 2 weeks. So much.....it's quench a bit of my thirst for this hobby which is only beginning. Thanks so much for sharing and might I also add you're most generous.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Btw Shaff I won the bid for the GE 6AS7G - $27 for the new pair. Pretty good don't you think so.




Excellent price. Congratulations! I need to sit the next set out, that is if I want to remain married.


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> Excellent price. Congratulations! I need to sit the next set out, that is if I want to remain married.


 

 Hahaha I know.....my wife cannot understand why I'm suddenly into tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Hahaha I know.....*my wife cannot understand why I'm suddenly into tubes*.




The problem is, mine can. She's been living with an audiophile for ~26 years and there's no fooling her. Unfortunately. :mad:


----------



## UntilThen

HF have you tried a C3G in the Darkvoice? I've decided to go for the Lorenz C3Gs with custom made adapters on the Elise. They say good things about those drivers on the Glenn thread.


----------



## HeatFan12

Nice UT! 

Nope, I haven't tried the c3g. Read great things about it. Looked into it but decided against it. Real fragile tube and it has been hit or miss with some Woo amps. The Elise seems to like them. 

Have some adapters coming to use the 5687s in the WA2. Going to try one in the DV tomorrow. I use them on an SP amp as power tubes (with adapters of course) 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

Yes G said in the Elise thread that the 5687 are terrific tubes.
  
 These came today looking dirty like it's uncovered from some WWII trenches. I clean it real good and hey presto it's like new. $30 for 4 I think it's ok. The sound is good like every tubes that I bought recently. I'm easy to please lol.
  
 Edit:- hmmm nothing lacking at all listening to 'Happiest days of our lives' Pink Floyd. Fast, detail highs and mids and punchy bass. 
  
 RCA 6SN7GTB coin base


----------



## Shaffer

Have you guys tried Baldwin (organ) 6SN7s? From what I gather, most were made by Sylvania and some by Raytheon. I have the Raytheon version. It's a bit on the lean side, overall, but very clear sounding. Listening with it now along with a Raytheon 6AS7G. Really balances out the dark-ish signature of the circuit. One of the nice combos I've heard in the DV, but I haven't received my adapters yet.


----------



## UntilThen

Haven't tried the Baldwin almost got it at one time as I assume organ therefore musical. Those coin base above according to the seller were extracted from big church organ.  All 4 are working well after trying it.
  
 What adapters are you waiting on? My 7N7 and 6CG7 adapters have not arrived. Also ordered 2 socket savers. I'm not sure why lol.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Haven't tried the Baldwin almost got it at one time as I assume organ therefore musical. Those coin base above according to the seller were extracted from big church organ.  All 4 are working well after trying it.




Mine were made for Wurlitzer. I don't know about your 4 tubes, but my pair hardly produces any sign of a glow. I was hoping for a headlight.



> What adapters are you waiting on? My 7N7 and 6CG7 adapters have not arrived. Also ordered 2 socket savers. I'm not sure why lol.




A new pair of 7N7s, a 6CG7, and a pair of 6922s.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes Baldwin acquired Wurlitzer in 1988.
  
 Mine are branded RCA and no light show as well. The photo doesn't show the light display accurately. There's very little glow.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Yes Baldwin acquired Wurlitzer in 1988.




Interesting info. I didn't know that.


----------



## HeatFan12

I have this one...Been a while, gotta give it a roll...
  
  

  
  
  
 The coin bases have arrived....That's great UT!
  
  
 I had only used the 5687s as power tubes, but after last night's rolling extravaganza where power and drivers were switching place, had to try


----------



## Shaffer

The setup looks mighty cool. 

What adapter are you using with 5687s?


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> The setup looks mighty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks Shaff!
  
 6SN7 to 5687.  Usually use it on the MPX3 SLAM as power tubes.  Here is the adapter and tube in the DV now.


----------



## UntilThen

wooo more nice pictures.
  
 lol revisiting the Elise thread to gather info on the C3g but instead heard comments that the RCA coin base are bottom of the NOS pile 
 That's ok I have to start at the bottom...but the fact is they still sound good to me.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> wooo more nice pictures.
> 
> lol revisiting the Elise thread to gather info on the C3g but instead heard comments that the RCA coin base are bottom of the NOS pile
> That's ok I have to start at the bottom...*but the fact is they still sound good to me. *


 
  
  
 Thanks..I like pics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have read that about the coin bases for years. lol.. I received mine in a mixed lot I purchased.  I like them and think they sound very balanced.  At the end of the day UT, if it sounds good to you is all that matters.  You plugged them in and tried them out yourself


----------



## Shaffer

The adapter is here! I'm warming up a 6GU7 ATM. So far, the sound is very warm and cozy.

Edit: Really didn't like the combo with a RCA 6AS7 grey plate, but the CRC 6080WA is working out much better.


----------



## UntilThen

This is starting to look like a chemistry lab where you mix the various substance and voila !!! 
  
 Thanks for that feedback Shaffer. I have never seen a 6GU7.


----------



## Thenewguy007

How does the Darkvoice compare to the Bottlehead Crack or WooAudio WA2?
  
 People pointed me here for a cheaper but comparable alternative.
  
  
  
 How does the Darkvoice pair with the Beyerdynamics T1 & the Sennheiser HD800?
 Heard mixed reviews on how they pair with the much more expensive WA2.
  
 Or about how about the Audeze LCD-2?
 Supposedly those bass heavy planter headphones do not pair well with any OTL amps.


----------



## UntilThen

The Darkvoice 336se is not on the same level as the Crack or the Wa2. The La Figaro 339 (big brother of DV 336se) would be. I have read good reviews of all 3 of those being used with HD800 and T1 very well. That said the DV 336se at US$290 is a very enjoyable entry into tube amps. I know some have tried with HD800 but invariably when you get those flagship headphones you would want to upgrade your amps. I've used the DV with HE560 not the best pairing as the HE560 is low impedance and not efficient but at 12 to 2 o'clock on the volume dial I have to smile and loving it.
  
 I would point you to the Elise though. I have placed an order for that. Pop into the Elise by Feliks Audio thread. You'll find many who are truly happy pairing that with their HD800 and T1. It drives both high and low impedance HPs well including the LCD2.2. Made in Poland and use the very popular and good tube category 6AS7 and 6SN7. It's a bit cheaper than La Figaro and Wa2.
  
 I just want to finish off by saying the Darkvoice 336se sounds incredibly good with the HD650 or even DT880.


----------



## Shaffer

The DV336SE is a warm, inviting, lush sounding amplifier. One can tune it fairly well with the right tubes and it has no shortage of power. Compared to a LDIII with upgraded tubes, its performance is almost a full level above, especially if you value bass and dynamics.

I would not suggest a Crack, as it greatly limits one's choice of headphones. The Feliks Elise mentioned earlier is a whole different ballgame next to all else above. FWIW, it's the best sounding headphone amp I've heard.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I take back what I said about the coin base RCAs. After a day of listening to it and finding nothing wrong with it, I swap back to my Motorola 6SN7GTB (a common 6SN7 presumably Sylvania rebranded) and was immediately stunned at how much more detail, impact and clarity the Motorola has. Same volume same songs same everything....
  
 And I am listening to *'I Can't Tell You Why'* by the Eagles lol. Precisely what the song title says.


----------



## Shaffer

I like my coin base Wurlizers. They sound relatively clear, although not the most detailed, with a big low-end. For what I paid for a NOS pair, really can't complain.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Thanks for that feedback Shaffer. I have never *seen a 6GU7*.


 
  
 Yours should be crossing an ocean somewhere right about now UT...lol....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


> *This is starting to look like a chemistry lab where you mix the various substance and voila* !!!


----------



## UntilThen

omg HT I'm dying from laughter now...that picture hahahahaha.
  
 Oh is a 6GU7 floating my way? I better ask the border patrol to look out for it. !!!
  
 I'm going to make that my profile pic if you don't mind lol.


----------



## HeatFan12

LOL!!!  Good times!!!!!
  
 Yes sir, 6GU7 & 6CG7.
  
  
 We'll have a DV one too...lol:


----------



## UntilThen

This is too funny !!! Put that on the 1st page of this thread. I'll give up my profile pic lol.
  
 Wow 6GU7 and 6CG7 coming my way I can't wait. Those adapters are on snail mail from China.


----------



## UntilThen

Hahahaha it's really on front page.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> This is too funny !!! Put that on the 1st page of this thread. I'll give up my profile pic lol.
> 
> Wow 6GU7 and 6CG7 coming my way I can't wait. Those adapters are on snail mail from China.


 
  
 Great idea.  I put it on the first page!.....Keep that pic you had UT for profile...lol...Looked great.  Once you get the adapters, it will apply...Hahahaha


----------



## HeatFan12

Last shipment of my inexpensive tube buy week came in today.  Wanted pairs for my WA2 but of course the DV gets first listen....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Paired it with a 6H13C for now:


----------



## UntilThen

What are those driver tubes? I'm not buying the russians 6H13c because it comes with Elise.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> What are those driver tubes? I'm not buying the russians 6H13c because it comes with Elise.


 
  
  
 Drivers are 6BZ7/6BQ7A....Came out to $4.50 a tube shipped (18 beans for the quad).


----------



## UntilThen

No more tubes for you. Save up to buy this...
  

  
 http://www.whathifi.com/news/sennheiser-teases-special-70th-anniversary-headphones


----------



## HeatFan12

LOL!!!  No more tubes for me...Just adapters UT!!!...
  
 I will start saving right now for that.....The Orpheus successor....Whadda ya think...It'll start out at 40k?.......Hmmm...Doesn't look like a fun tube rolling amp...I think I'll pass...LOL


----------



## UntilThen

I'm only thinking of the Michelangelo marble that it's build on. I want that. The 8 Hz to 100 kHz frequency will help also I'm sure. Wonder if it takes 6SN7 & 6AS7 tubes


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Drivers are 6BZ7/6BQ7A....Came out to $4.50 a tube shipped (18 beans for the quad).




I have one coming today. Should be pretty exciting.


----------



## HeatFan12

That's great Shaff! 
Had the GE in there last night about four hours. First hour with the Svet a bit dry sounding. Things really opened up after that. Lots of details and air.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaffer

shaffer said:


> I have one coming today. Should be pretty exciting.




I've had a NOS RCA 6BQ7A ($6 shipped) playing for about a half hour. Certainly not long enough to even burn in, but I already like it. It's paired with a JAN Sylvania 6080WB. No hum, even with a brand new driver.

I also received an almost perfect match - pretty much as close as it gets - for one of my two Raytheon JAN 6080WA. Now there's a pair for the Elise and a single for the DV. I'm happy.

Edit: typo


----------



## HeatFan12

Wanted to add, that all these tube compatibility tests were all done with DT880s except when I plugged in the Grados to try out the resistance adapter. 

Now that the dust has settled and I know we can use all these different tubes will be giving the DV different flavor phones.... Good times ahead guys!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

Good times guys. Those tubes plus shipping are really cheap for you. Perfect for tube rolling without selling the cat.


----------



## Shaffer

Picked up an extra tall CBS 6AS7GA (IME, all GAs were made by GE). Never seen one like this, though: fairly large in size, triple mica, and the presentation is more detailed and less warm than my other GAs. Sounds killer with a 6BQ7A. Not terribly transparent, ultimately, but a great tone. Lots of fun to listen with.

IIRC, there are still a couple of the NOS CBC GAs left on ebay.


----------



## UntilThen

Quite cheap too those CBS GA. My GE 6AS7GAs from Parts Express is almost here.


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> I like my coin base Wurlizers. They sound relatively clear, although not the most detailed, with a big low-end. For what I paid for a NOS pair, really can't complain.


 

 Absolutely. I must have been tired coming to that conclusion that day. Had the coin base on now and there's nothing lacking.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Absolutely. I must have been tired coming to that conclusion that day. Had the coin base on now and there's nothing lacking.




We're lucky to be involved with two adult threads: this one [thanks HF12] and the Elise discussion. I'm willing to bet that some kid _heard _ that coin base tubes don't sound great with his level of immense experience, and as the usual forum practice, the other kids started repeating it. How else could one explain the success of utter sonic crap like the Modi or the O2? We have to face the truth. It's mostly a kid forum.


----------



## HeatFan12

Cheers Shaff!!!
  
 The coin bases have been getting that rep for a while.  That's why there's nothing better than plugging in and listening for yourself.  Too many variables that can make a difference.
  
 The 6BK7B is another one with not a lot of praise.  I received some in a mixed lot and quite enjoy them.


----------



## UntilThen

Maybe I should get someone to do the Fitz mod on my DV. My brown base Sylvania starts to hum now. Michael Buble is sounding so good now on my old driver and the Dumont 6080WA.


----------



## Shaffer

Well, HF12, we may turn into a pair (pun intended) - I may be getting a second DV, as well. Working on a trade deal that also includes a WA6.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Maybe I should get someone to do the Fitz mod on my DV. My brown base Sylvania starts to hum now. Michael Buble is sounding so good now on my old driver and the Dumont 6080WA.


 
  
  
 Do it UT!  No more hum!!  Can't have that beautiful brown base hum.  I sent mine to Fitz himself in 2009 and he took care of it.
  
 Until then, white noise helped on some of my tubes with hum before I had the mod done.  Ran it non stop in 8 hour increments.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> Well, HF12, we may turn into a pair (pun intended) - I may be getting a second DV, as well. Working on a trade deal that also includes a WA6.


 
  
  
 LOL!  Nice Shaff!


----------



## UntilThen

Well my son almost commit to a WA6SE this week but then he realised last minute that WA2 is more his type. Would love to hear your impressions on the WA6 when you get it.
  
 Are you planning on dual mono DV 336se?


----------



## UntilThen

And to think that HF has a WA2 maxxed....I'm coming to America !!!


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> And to think that HF has a WA2 maxxed....I'm coming to America !!!


 
  
  
 LOL!!!
  
 I just threw some 6BZ8s into the WA2 with JAN CRC 6AS7Gs.  I can't be in the Elise club, so we have to cross reference the amp goodness and keep the crew together....


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Well my son almost commit to a WA6SE this week but then he realised last minute that WA2 is more his type. Would love to hear your impressions on the WA6 when you get it.




I'll share for sure. The thing that attracts me to it is that it's transformer-coupled, and there are rolling options. The former mostly, though. I've wanted a non-OTL for a while.



> Are you planning on dual mono DV 336se?




No idea what I'll do with a pair. The initial thoughts are to either use one in my office with DT990pro or keep both in my man system, albeit tuned very differently, sonically. We'll see....

Edit: typo


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> I just threw some 6BZ8s into the WA2 with JAN CRC 6AS7Gs.  I can't be in the Elise club, so we have to cross reference the amp goodness and keep the crew together....




You're not doing so bad, my friend. We'd love to have you join us in the Elise thread. We have several DV owners and having a WA2 guy would sure be a nice bonus. Plus, you have experience with other octal-based amps. Really, please consider it, if you have the time. 

The visuals are stunning; great pic. Oh, if I could only shoot one half as nice....


----------



## UntilThen

HF I thought you had an Elise for a while in that photo   and for sure come to the Elise forum. We need your chemistry knowledge 
  
 That's a nice photo indeed. My next shot I'll try a long exposure on a tripod.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks guys!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 I read the Elise thread every now and then.  The sound for both hi-z and low-z phones, from everything I have read is excellent and a tube roller's dream (or nightmare for the wallet...lol).  A solid solid amp with 2x 6AS7s and 2x 6sn7s....Outstanding!!!


----------



## UntilThen

I won't know I haven't got Elise yet. I'm hoping it's the warm side of neutral. I very much like how the DV sounds right now. Elise is ideal for you since you've a room full of tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This is the most glow I could get with a bit of photoshop lol


----------



## HeatFan12

Beautiful shot UT!!!
  
 LOL...Tubes are fun...The Elise and your 560s should pair well, from what I've read.  A very versatile amp.


----------



## UntilThen

well it's not mine....suppose I can borrow it


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> No idea what I'll do with a pair. The initial thoughts are to either use one in my office with DT990pro or keep both in my man system, albeit tuned very differently, sonically. We'll see....


 
 Use a switchbox to compare different tubes directly between the DVs Shaffer! 
  
 UntilThen dragged me over here from the Elise thread, very nice thread you have here with some exotic tube combnations!


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Ren,
  
 Nice to see you here finally. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   Yes we're a jovial bunch. Look at the 1st page logo. That's what we've become lol.
  
 How much is that switch box. How do you connect to your tube amps.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Here is one, just to contribute (not from my nice camera, just from phone). RCA 6AS7G and Telefunken EF 86 mesh plates. I usually do not run with the RCA's, but I'm trying a softer sound tonight.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Hi Ren,
> Nice to see you here finally.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi UT, thanks for the warm welcome! Took me a bit to read through all the pages 
  
 I made the switchbox myself, its just a piece of square alu profile, a switch and 3, 1/4" jack chassis mounts.  Very simple and can be cheap but used some good quality parts and cable so total was about 50 eud


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Liu, you're here too how nice. We need more pics of your 339. Hmm to think I almost went with your amp. I have a feeling I'm going to miss the warm and lushness not going with the La Figaro.


----------



## UntilThen

Ren, you're a handyman !!! You should build a Crack.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

untilthen said:


> Hi Liu, you're here too how nice. We need more pics of your 339. Hmm to think I almost went with your amp. I have a feeling I'm going to miss the warm and lushness not going with the La Figaro.




Maybe. I think you'll be quite pleased with your decision to go with the Elise. While the 339 is a great amp, I am also very curious about the Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

I think it's time you add another tube amp to your inventory Liu. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And do the comparison for us.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Ren, you're a handyman !!! You should build a Crack.


 
 Ha! Funny you should say that, I actually contemplated builing a Crack! But ultimately I think the Elise is the better amplifier. As HF mentioned, she has indeed a wide range when it comes to z. Very stable amplfier with a very good imaging. Not to downplay the DV ofcourse! 
  
 Handled every can I threw at her (not literally) remarkably well. Even 18 ohms headphones sounded more than ok. Though I do believe her sweet spot to be around 250 ohms and up. Elise + T1 is an amazing combination. Sorry for going on a bit, must still be enjoying the Elise a lot  Hop you get yours soon UT!


----------



## UntilThen

One thing that is very evident. We're all tube lovers. There's no denying that. For me it all started with the baby Darkvoice.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I am curious as to how the DV differs from the 339 as well. The DV 337 is purportedly more neutral and less lush than the 339, but by your description, the 336 and 339 appear to be tonally comparable.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> One thing that is very evident. We're all tube lovers. There's no denying that. For me it all started with the baby Darkvoice.


 
  
 We all have to start somewhere, and the DV is certainly a good place to take your first steps into tubeland  For me it was the Little bear P8. The design is actually very solid but the implimentation (pcb and cable routing, etc) and components are not up to par. Many chinese counterfit components in this one! Still it sounded quite good and I could hear there was potential in tubes


----------



## UntilThen

liu junyuan said:


> I am curious as to how the DV differs from the 339 as well. The DV 337 is purportedly more neutral and less lush than the 339, but by your description, the 336 and 339 appear to be tonally comparable.


 

 I can only give my impressions of the 336 sonic attributes. I have no means of knowing what the 339 would be like. However reading from reviews I am very sure it will take my excitement levels up several notches. That is interesting what you pointed out about the 337 and 339 difference. That being the case the 339 would be magic to my ears. However I shall not betray Elise. I like to think she's magic now as far as I am concern.


----------



## UntilThen

Ren, that Little Bear is better looking than I thought. Keep it and like HeatFan you will have a healthy collection of tube amps soon.


----------



## Renderman

I still have it! But im not sure having a collection of tube amps is inherently healthy, lol!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm so excited now. Paid my invoice and Elise is coming end Sept.


----------



## UntilThen

Doesn't seem right isn't it getting excited for paying an invoice !!!


----------



## dguitarnut

The DV 336SE is such a fun and great amp!  I miss mine but it had to be punished for leading me to get EC445!!!!!!!!!! 
 Banished the bad boy to a foster home.  I do think about him often and I keep some of his favorite tubes in my closet just in case he visits.


----------



## UntilThen

And I thought EC445 is a tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Well that's progress from Darkvoice 336se to Eddie Current Four45. Don't you think that's too big? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Show some pic of this beast.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> And I thought EC445 is a tube :bigsmile_face:
> Well that's progress from Darkvoice 336se to *Eddie Current Four45*. Don't you think that's too big? :wink_face:
> Show some pic of this beast.




I'd love to hear that amp.


----------



## HeatFan12

Knocked out late last night.....Nice action on the thread...Awesome!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Had to give the WA2 some love last night with the new 6BZ8s....Had already tried them in the DV.
  
 Today I'm back to the 6SN7.  All the tubes I ordered worked great with no problems.
  
 The first combo is a Chatham 6AS7G & 5692 (black base).  The 5692 black base is another tube that doesn't get a lotta love.  His brother, the red base is the mack daddy in the family.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice HF. Both tubes are expensive now even used ones. I heard the 5692 has warm lush tones.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks UT!!!
  
 Well, after a few hours with the 5692, I'm ready for off the wall and off the radar tubes again!
  
 D5Ks (before I send them out for removable cables tomorrow) & iPod 5.5G (R'boxed)(Dock) & GE 6BS8 driver with Chatham 6AS7G


----------



## UntilThen

Your picture taking skills has gone up several notches 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My pair of GE 6AS7GA arrived today. These were the ones together with the coin base recommended by a friend whose DV sounded good with his HD600. He's using Stax but still loving his DV. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 GE 6AS7GA flanked by RCA 6AS7GA and RCA 6SN7GTB Coin Base
  

  
 and the glow


----------



## HeatFan12

Awesome UT!!!
  
 Get that coin base and GA glow love!!!!!
  
 Thanks!  Same camera and same settings.  I guess the camera says to the exposure setting "this is for the DV thread, let's rock it!!!"


----------



## UntilThen

Adapters are here. 18 karat gold


----------



## UntilThen

Last of my tubes came today. RCA 6AS7G and Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears. I'm surprised this RCA is bigger than the other RCA 6AS7Gs that I have. Thought they send me the wrong tube.
 I really like this pairing.


----------



## HeatFan12

Looking awesome UT!!!
  
 Seems like a great combo....Gotta luv the mouse ears...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

untilthen said:


> Last of my tubes came today. RCA 6AS7G and Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears. I'm surprised this RCA is bigger than the other RCA 6AS7Gs that I have. Thought they send me the wrong tube.
> I really like this pairing.




How does it sound? I have the mesh plate version of those drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

Great soundstage, sounds airy and lovely bass. Got it only for 18 bucks. Had to clean it tho but looking shiny now and best of all with used tubes it doesn't hum. 
  
 Worth seeking out.
  
 Are you using 6SN7 in LF too?


----------



## UntilThen

I had already mapped out the drivers for the LF. Was almost 80% on it before the change of mind. 
 Was going to get Telefunken EF80 and possibly Red RCA 5693. The Reds are so striking. Those drivers are so much cheaper compared to good NOS 6SN7.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Last of my tubes came today. RCA 6AS7G and Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears. I'm surprised this RCA is bigger than the other RCA 6AS7Gs that I have. Thought they send me the wrong tube.
> I really like this pairing.




Nice! 

I've always wanted to hear a Mouse Ear TS. Too many great tubes, too little money.


----------



## UntilThen

Extracted from the Reference 6SN7 thread.
  
 ● “Concurrently with the last days of the TS R-P there was a version with regular ribbed plates - that could have been grey OR black, and has the notorious round side mica spacers termed "mouse ears". A very, very good sounding tube."
  
 So this came after the famed TS RP which has a fetching price of $150 now.


----------



## Shaffer

I'm really liking the 6BK7B. It seems to add life and excitement to very output tube I've tried. ATM I'm running it with a Sylvania 6AS7G grey plate, which is a bit on the dull side normally. Not with a 6BK7B


----------



## UntilThen

Excellent Shaffer !!!  Nothing like trying it out yourself. Socket savers arrived lol. Tubes are now taller 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm just enjoying classical now via Tidal. DV with HE560 now. By the time Elise comes I'll already have a very good impression of DV with the various HPs I have at my disposal.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Excellent Shaffer !!!  Nothing like trying it out yourself. Socket savers arrived lol. Tubes are now taller :bigsmile_face:
> 
> I'm just enjoying classical now via Tidal. DV with HE560 now. By the time Elise comes I'll already have a very good impression of DV with the various HPs I have at my disposal.




I'm running socket savers in my new (to me) WA6 to make the glow more visible. Shallow, I know.

It's an interesting sounding amplifier, not at all like the Elise. Now that I've settled on the tubes for the Woo, listening can commence. Not that I haven't been listening for the last 5 hours.


----------



## UntilThen

Sounds like you like them both. 
  
 Put some vocals through them.
  
 Katherine Jenkins - The Ultimate Collection...incredible tonal range with full orchestra
  
 I also like Diana Krall - Wallflower and Katie Melua - Collection.


----------



## UntilThen

Pair of GE 6AS7G came today and one of them has copper rods and 2 rectangular getters at the bottom. However I noticed the metal shielding below the bottom mica which the Chathams doesn't have. Oh well it still sounds good on the DV now.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Pair of GE 6AS7G came today and one of them has copper rods and 2 rectangular getters at the bottom. However I noticed the metal shielding below the bottom mica which the Chathams doesn't have. Oh well it still sounds good on the DV now.




I was listening to the RCA versions of the tubes the other night in the Elise. I think you'll be happy with the sound: large in scale, warm, but not dark, dynamic, detailed....

In the DV, a black plate with a 6SN7GT driver makes for a rockin' combo.


----------



## UntilThen

6SN7GT are generally very good. What brand did you have. I feel 6SN7 and it's variants provides us with such a large pool of tubes to explore we should be able to pick some that will satisfy us. It is for this reason I decided not to go with C3g.
  
 Both Sylvanias has stop humming. I'm really happy. I think the Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base is a great sounding tube which I pick up a at a bargain.
  
 I made another 2 purchase just when I thought I'll stop till Elise arrived. I couldn't resist. I got a pair of 7N7 Raytheons NOS NIB and a nice pair of RCA 6SN7GT VT231 smoked glass. The RCAs has a great review in the 6SN7 Reference link, the sound attributes appeal to me. Warm, lushness, extended highs, crystal clear midrange and very strong bass.
  
 I'm now looking at the 6CG7s hahaha. RCAs are not at the top end of the 6SN7 but in the 6CG7 they are highly regarded and the price reflects that. If the reviews are correct about this tube then it's definitely worth seeking out. 6CG7 are still cheaper than 6SN7. Well only way to find out... 
  
 Happy tube rolling !


----------



## Shaffer

I like CBC 6SN7GT. A lot. Not the VT-231 version. Not sure if one exists, to be honest.

Yea, lots to roll with. Endless fun!


----------



## UntilThen

Where you at HeatFan ?!!! 
  
 It's the weekend what tubes are you rolling?


----------



## Shaffer

Picked up some HF-recommended tubes for the adapter. Each NOS for less than $5 shipped. All Dumont with 312 EIA code (relabeled Tung Sol) and one RCA to match the one I have. I'd like to try the tubes in the Elise.

My 6922 adapters are due to arrive today along with a second DV and a selection of tubes from the previous owner. Couldn't sleep last night.


----------



## UntilThen

So much excitement for you Shaffer.     Go the DV !
  
 I'm back on the C3g. I think I have enough driver tubes to start with on the Elise even if Lukasz hasn't got any Tung Sol for me.
 Was looking at those 5998 on eBay but I think they will have a run away price. 
  
 It REALLY makes sense for us to have DV and Elise. My main reason for going with Elise really. Reusing those tubes interchangeably.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Where you at HeatFan ?!!!
> 
> It's the weekend what tubes are you rolling?


 
  
  


shaffer said:


> Picked up some HF-recommended tubes for the adapter. Each NOS for less than $5 shipped. All Dumont with 312 EIA code (relabeled Tung Sol) and one RCA to match the one I have. I'd like to try the tubes in the Elise.
> 
> My 6922 adapters are due to arrive today along with a second DV and a selection of tubes from the previous owner. Couldn't sleep last night.


 
  
  
 Where we at guys!!!!!!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Indeed UT, the weekend has arrived...Been another long week...Received a few more economical ones to test that I had not tried yet....These will be my last to experiment with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.......Hahaha......Cooking it up a little with a Chatham 6AS7G.
  
 I see Shaff is getting some tube adapter love...Many to choose from....Awesome!
  
 Did those tubes make it to Oz yet UT?


----------



## UntilThen

No sir your tubes hasn't make it to Oz yet. 
  
 I've purchased quite a few tubes in the last 2 days!. I'm bubbling with excitement. All my humming tubes no longer hum. I'm so happy.
  
 These are my new purchases:-
  

PAIR OF RCA JAN-6SN7GT SMOKE GLASS MILITARY VACUUM TUBES. VT-231
NOS NIB Date Matched Pair 1957 Raytheon US 7N7 Black T Plate Chrome Vacuum Tubes
MULLARD CV2984 6080 PAIRED NOS VACUUM TUBE YEAR 1967 
6N23P / E88CC / 6DJ8. Russian tubes Lot of 2 Rocket logo 1975 year
1pair ECC88 6DJ8 6922 6N11 TO 6SN7 6N8P VT231 B65 Tube converter adapter
Not forgetting the Lorenz C3g and adapters
  
 4 pairs of drivers and 1 pair power tube. Time to relax now.


----------



## Shaffer

UT, you also got some 7N7 adapters, right?


----------



## UntilThen

yes bought that earlier together with the 6CG7 ones.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> yes bought that earlier together with the 6CG7 ones.




Excellent! 

Interestingly, my "new" DV is slightly different than the one I already had. Like the power switch, for example. The new one has a smaller, sturdier one. The volume pot seems different, as well, and the amp kinda sounds more open. I'm going to open both later and take a look inside.


----------



## Shaffer

shaffer said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Interestingly, my "new" DV is slightly different than the one I already had. Like the power switch, for example. The new one has a smaller, sturdier one. The volume pot seems different, as well, and the amp kinda sounds more open. *I'm going to open both later and take a look inside*.




The only difference I noted via a visual inspection were the resistors on the driver socket. Otherwise, they look identical inside.

I rolled identical tubes into both amps and will spend the day auditioning them. I'm going to listen to the original amp, if you will, for several hours and then switch to the one that arrived this week. The volume is set within 1dB, which is as close as I can get with my meter, and we'll see what happens.


----------



## HeatFan12

Wow UT! Some fine tubes coming your way. Congrats on the purchases.

Shaff what other driver tubes have you been trying?

Cheers!


Sent from my iPad Mini from Ultrasone & Grado planet


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Shaff what other driver tubes have you been trying?




In addition to the two you sent me, Sovtek 6922, Audio Research factory 6DJ8H, and RCA (black plates) 6BK7B. Can't say which is working out best at this point, but I can say that the Sovtek 6922s sound very dynamic, extended, detailed, and exciting in the DV. The 6BK7B isn't too far behind, albeit, lacking the 6922's scale of resolution. The tube is still breaking in. I ordered a second RCA to try the pair in the Elise.


----------



## Trancedoc

What kind of adapters are you using for the C3G's?  Are they commercially available.


----------



## HeatFan12

Nice Shaff!!!

The 6BK7B surprised me too. Overall great presentation. 

I need to roll a few more 6922/6DJ8 in my DV and spend some time with them. I tried them briefly to see if they would work with the 6CG7 adapter, which they did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UntilThen

trancedoc said:


> What kind of adapters are you using for the C3G's?  Are they commercially available.​


 
 They are not available commercially. It's make by a gentleman who started the Elise thread. These are special adapters for using 2 C3g in a pair of 6SN7 sockets. Humm will one work in DV? I better ask him. Don't want fireworks in my DV.


----------



## UntilThen

heatfan12 said:


> Wow UT! Some fine tubes coming your way. Congrats on the purchases.


 
 Thank you thank you HF. Plus your tubes coming too. Is there such thing as too much joy?
  
 I do some research before buying my tubes. I am trying not to overlap.


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer your DV2 could be a later version with upgraded parts  Well I know the big brother La Figaro 339 has a revision in 2013 with upgraded parts and cost more. Either that or your DV2 has been modded by the previous owner.


----------



## UntilThen

@TranceDoc or anyone considering using a single C3g + adapter in the Darkvoice 336se 6SN7 socket. Just had confirmation from Glenn that this won't work. You need 2 like in Elise.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Shaffer your DV2 could be a later version with upgraded parts  Well I know the big brother La Figaro 339 has a revision in 2013 with upgraded parts and cost more. Either that or your DV2 has been modded by the previous owner.




It's the slightly older amp that sounds a bit better. Not a huge difference, but noticeable. I've had them both open side-by-side all day. The only difference in parts were the resistors on the driver socket, and the on-switch. I suspect the pot may be different, too, but the part numbers and the boards are the same. Perhaps it's due to a large variance in parts' tolerance, given the amp's price-point.


----------



## HeatFan12

Never too much joy UT!  You've made some solid purchases.  It's all about the journey.
  
 Shaff rockin' two DVs...Outstanding...
  
 Well, all my testing is done and all tubes I have tried are compatible (either drop-in or with adapters).  Received two adapters today for the WA2.  Like you guys and the Elise...what fits in the DV is going into the WA2....lol
  
 Gotta say, if it wasn't for this thread coming alive, we would have never set out on finding all these different and inexpensive tubes to try.  I love the 6SN7 but we have a lot of options for the DV that can also be used with other amps.  Tube rollers and adapter rollers...Haha
  
 Thanks guys!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 This was my last test and currently moving all the gear into the rack.  A nice Sylvania 6BC8 driver:
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## UntilThen

HF what a nice picture !
  
 I can't believe it's only been a month since I came on this thread. It's been great sharing with you and Shaffer and all those who pop in.
  
 I bought a lot of tubes in the last week. After careful consideration and research. I was picking my power and driver tubes for both the DV and Elise. I was taking the fine line between spending too much and getting quality tubes. I think I have enough now to swap tubes for each day of the week.
  
 I'll sit back now and enjoy the music whilst waiting for the tubes and Elise to come. Also waiting to hear Shaffer's review on his latest amp additions.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks UT!!!
  
 We're rolling tubes and Shaff is rolling amps...lol...Good Times!!
  
  
 On the rack and side by side....5687 adapters in the WA2 which I received today.  Still with the Sylvania 6BC8 in the DV!!!


----------



## Shaffer

The WA2's styling always appealed to me; it's such a handsome piece. Never had an opportunity to hear one, unfortunately. How does it sound next to the DV?

Very nice system, BTW.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> The WA2's styling always appealed to me; it's such a handsome piece. Never had an opportunity to hear one, unfortunately. How does it sound next to the DV?
> 
> Very nice system, BTW.


 
  
  
 Thanks Shaff!!!
  
 Again, you guys have motivated me into rolling big time once again...The WA2, I really never messed with her.  Had some Tesla ECC88 in there as drivers for a long time.  With adapters and drop-ins, and all we've discovered, it has brought her up to another level.  All of them I've tried in the DV before putting them in.
  
 The refinement and overall spectrum is broader with the WA2.  More 3D if you will....Sound is coming from various areas instead of being limited, so to speak..The DV is no slouch though and I'm glad I can compare them side by side now.


----------



## UntilThen

HF I would be happy with your setup and call it a day for sure. Just sit back and listen to music with some good wine. The WA2 and DV on the top rack looks so beautiful. WA2 certainly has a lot of good reviews and you have the maxxed version which Woo doesn't make anymore. That's like WA2se.
  
 I certainly wouldn't have imagine going this far with tube rolling on the DV if not for you. Has been fun but I need to slow down now. Time to do some other stuff. Spring is here !!!


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> We're rolling tubes and Shaff is rolling amps...lol...Good Times!!




Heh, too funny and too true. ATM, I'm looking at 4 lit-up tube amps. Can't say it's an awful thing to see.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF I would be happy with your setup and call it a day for sure. Just sit back and listen to music with some good wine. The WA2 and DV on the top rack looks so beautiful. WA2 certainly has a lot of good reviews and you have the maxxed version which Woo doesn't make anymore. That's like WA2se.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't have imagine going this far with tube rolling on the DV if not for you. Has been fun but I need to slow down now. Time to do some other stuff. Spring is here !!!


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!!!
  
 Yes, time to sit back and relax.  All I'm waiting for now are the 6SN7 adapters to use with the WA2.  This is a blast...Teamwork guys!!!
  
  
  


shaffer said:


> Heh, too funny and too true. ATM, I'm looking at 4 lit-up tube amps. Can't say it's an awful thing to see.


 
  
  
 Hahaha..........That's right you received the WA6 and another DV Shaff....I had to catch up!
  
 How are you liking them?


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Thanks UT!!!
> 
> Yes, time to sit back and relax.  All I'm waiting for now are the 6SN7 adapters to use with the WA2.  This is a blast...Teamwork guys!!!




I ordered other adapters over the weekend. It's hopeless. 



> Hahaha..........That's right you received the WA6 and another DV Shaff....I had to catch up!
> 
> How are you liking them?




I'm trying to tune the two DVs for completely different presentations. It's going OK, making progress, but I fear a longer road ahead than initially anticipated.

The WA6 is an interesting animal. It came with 5 pairs of signal tubes (2 sets of TS', GE fat bottles, RCAs, and Lindals) and 3 rectifiers including a Brimar and a RK-60. I first fired it up by picking the tubes essentially at random - even though the seller recommended a starting point, I wanted to play a bit - and the amp sounded disappointingly soft. Very slow transient response, hazy presentation. If the DV was a hammer, configured as it were, the WA6 was a feather duster. I didn't feel comfortable comparing it to the Elise, as the performance gap was simply too wide. Clearly, there was work to be done.

Let me first say that I've never come across an amp before that was _this _sensitive to rectification. The choice of rectifier made a night and day difference in sound with the same pair of tubes. I was stunned. To make a very long story a lot shorter, after much experimentation I settled on a couple of combos that transformed the amp's sound, compared to the first listen. 

A Dutch Elise owner helped me find a Philips Miniwatt GZ34 in Holland that I could afford; he's shipping it this week, and I identified a couple of other rectifiers I want to try. Those are much more reasonably priced. I'm also expecting more signal tubes, so let the games begin!

BTW, the DV came with a nice selection of tubes, as well, including a Chatham along with other output tubes, and a number of drivers. Quite a few 6SN7GTs - my favorite. It's been a fairly happy week.

I didn't know your WA2 had upgraded internals. I'm a bit envious, to be honest.


----------



## HeatFan12

Real nice Shaff!!!  More adapters...lol....Good times for sure!
  
 I almost went with the WA6 back then.  Was back and forth with Jack until I decided on the WA2.  Had the DV already so could use the same power tubes.  Back then they offered an upgrade package with black gates, so I jumped on it.
  
 I think I posted this before but I would hardly ever roll any tubes on the WA2.  Went like a year with 6AS7GA, Tesla ECC88 and the Tungsram EZ80s.  Don't have too many pairs of 6922/6DJ8s and they were crazy expensive so I stayed with that set up.  But now, with all these other tubes we've discovered that can go in the WA2, DV, Elise with adapters or drop in, the madness is in full effect....lol  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Been rolling on the DV and WA2 today.....My favorite driver tubes today for the WA2 have been the 6BK7B.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    Have a pair of TS in there now.....Excellent all the way around.....Big fan of them now...
  
 Glad to hear the WA6 and second DV are rocking it for ya.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 EDIT: Added- How are the drivers for the WA6?
  
  
 Earlier today, the 5670 getting a little DV love....lol.....
  
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> A Dutch Elise owner helped me find a Philips Miniwatt GZ34 in Holland that I could afford; he's shipping it this week,.




There just might be some bonus mystery items sent along with that tube Shaff!


----------



## UntilThen

Hey guys lots of activities here I see. HF love that pic of the big tube and small tube combo. Really stands out.
  
 Well I just got a pair of Tung Sol 5998. I just need to find out for myself what the fuss is all about. If you are looking for 5998 pm me for contact details.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> There just might be some bonus mystery items sent along with that tube Shaff!




You're too kind. Admittedly, now the anticipation has taken on a higher level of magnitude.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Hey guys lots of activities here I see.




This is a terrific thread. Consider, the DV has been discontinued for years; hence the steep discounts on brand new units. The original DV thread started ~8 years ago and at this point the amp hasn't served as the FOTM for some time. It hardly gets recommended; for whatever reason the mentality here - I suspect driven by a lack of experience - is that the newest product is always better. It's a notion as absurd as classifying audio gear by its price and not its sound. Yet, here were are enjoying a highly versatile amplifier that can truly kick ass. A bit short on finesse, but no shortage of slam and excitement. 

ATM, my DV-1 is shod with a CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT and a '55 CRC 6AS7G, and DV-2 is running a TS medium bottle with black plates and a Chatham/TS (both brands are on the tube) 6AS7G. The underlying sound of the circuit still serves as the determining factor in tube selection, as its impact is relatively dominant, but both amps now sound quite different tonally, textually, and dynamically. There is still a difference in resolution. I suspect it's due to the RCA. 



> HF love that pic of the big tube and small tube combo. Really stands out.




Yea, looks great.



> Well I just got a pair of Tung Sol 5998. I just need to find out for myself what the fuss is all about. If you are looking for 5998 pm me for contact details.




Looking forward to your impressions! I've never heard one.


----------



## UntilThen

That's the nice thing about tube rolling. You can experiment. 2 DVs would be excellent for comparing tubes. 
  
 Yes the DV 336se is a pretty amazing entry level tube amp. I can't say this enough. Those who owns it will go on to better tube amps. This thing just makes you want for more. I suspect the big brother La Figaro 339 will be an eye (or ear lol) opener.  I know what I will do. After a year with Elise I'll get 339. Same power tubes so whatever I am collecting now will come in handy.
  
 Btw I have switch back to using Aune T1 for DAC duties. Want to play with the 6922/ECC88 tubes used on it. More tubes more glow


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks guys!  That little 5670 tube packs a punch.
  
 You're right on the money Shaff.  So many products out there, that a lot get left behind and never revisited with the current FOTM coming out.
  
 Congratz on the 5998 UT.  Indeed, looking forward to your impressions.
  
 That's right, you have the Aune with a 6922/6DJ8...Oh boy.....More possibilities with tubes you own...The 6922 adapters to use 6SN7s on the WA2 should be here this week.  Will let you guys know how it goes...Imagine the Aune with a 6SN7...


----------



## UntilThen

Hi HF,
  
 Will it work?  I didn't think about that. It's a tube DAC. Hmm 6SN7 to 6922 adapter? Haven't seen anyone done that to their Aune T1 lol.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Hi HF,
> 
> Will it work?  I didn't think about that. It's a tube DAC. Hmm 6SN7 to 6922 adapter? Haven't seen anyone done that to their Aune T1 lol.


 
  
  
 Hi UT!
  
 Well, found it...lol...I remember someone trying this out before
  
  

  
  
 These are the adapters I have incoming to use 6SN7s in the WA2


----------



## UntilThen

Genius lol. Why is the adapter in the Aune photo so strange. Kind of like double adapters.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Genius lol. Why is the adapter in the Aune photo so strange. Kind of like double adapters.


 
  
  
 I'm guessing someone was trying something out home made.  You have a nice collection of 6SN7s.  Ask in the Aune thread to see if someone has tried it.  Some folks have tried the 6SN7 in the WA2, that's why I jumped on it.  Or send a message to that seller for the adapter I purchased.  I think it's worth a try imo.  All my adapters that I recently purchased, I sent them messages beforehand.  They all responded quickly and were very helpful.
  
 The 6922 to 6SN7 adapter, he has two different ones.  One is cheaper and is blue and white.  I asked the difference and he advised that it's the same internally, they just put a black base around it.


----------



## UntilThen

I think I know why that photo has 2 adapters or a tapered long adapter. The Aune socket sits below the top plate, it's not flush and a normal 6SN7 to 6922 adapter won't fit inside the small hole where the socket is located. I'll ask the seller if they have one that fits inside the Aune socket opening lol.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> I think I know why that photo has 2 adapters or a tapered long adapter. The Aune socket sits below the top plate, it's not flush and a normal 6SN7 to 6922 adapter won't fit inside the small hole where the socket is located. I'll ask the seller if they have one that fits inside the Aune socket opening lol.


 
  
  
 You're right, it has to be tapered.  The adapter might sit on the lip without being flushed.  Check out his blue and white one.  It does not have a base.  Send him a link of the Aune.  He was very helpful when I asked a bunch of questions.
  
 That's what I fear too.  Hoping the openings in my WA2 will fit the adapters.  MIKELAP posted pics of his but they were different than the ones I ordered.


----------



## UntilThen

I found the page on Aune T1 thread where they list the tubes that works
  
 Tubes that will work with a socket adapter....8 pin octal 6SN7 style
  
 5692*
 6SN7*
 6SN7W*
 6SN7GT*
 6SN7GTA*
 6SN7GTB*
  
 Now to have a chat with the seller.


----------



## HeatFan12

Nice UT!  Great job!!  The journey is awesome indeed!!!


----------



## UntilThen

LOL I got side track. Was reading the part where he open up the Aune T1 and started upgrading it. Anyhoo apparently 6H30Pi works directly into socket no need for adapter in the Aune T1.
  
 Alright let's not get too fancy for me. If I can use 6SN7 that will be enough.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> LOL I got side track. Was reading the part where he open up the Aune T1 and started upgrading it. Anyhoo apparently 6H30Pi works directly into socket no need for adapter in the Aune T1.
> 
> Alright let's not get *too fancy for me*. If I can use 6SN7 that will be enough.


 
  
  
 LOL!!!  UT, you've crossed over to the dark side with your first adapter purchase....All there is now is too much fancy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, remember I tried the 6H30Pi in the WA2.  They are the stock power tubes for the LD MKIVSE.  Then I threw in a pair of 6922s in the MKIVSE as power tubes.
  
 But that would defeat the purpose since you would have to obtain those tubes.  If those tubes ever make it to OZ I sent, why not try them.  I ran 6GU7s and 6CG7s in my WA2 as drop ins.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I will try your tubes but they haven't arrived yet. In fact I have quite a few tubes on the way and then it's no more for a while....famous last words.
  
 I don't know about trying too much on the Aune T1. It's only temporary. Eventually there will be a dac upgrade .......   I'll focus on the tube amps. That should keep me busy.


----------



## HeatFan12

Famous last words....lol......
  
 Me too....I said no more tubes for a while....When I purchased my last adapters for the WA2 there were some Tesla EZ80s (rectifiers for the WA2) that came up on the "you might be interested in these" page..lol...So, five days ago I put a bid on them and forgot about it...I woke up this morning with the "YOU WON" email...Hahaha


----------



## UntilThen

That guy on the Aune T1 thread did an amazing job reviewing tubes, making adapters. He went through so many tubes and score the good ones accordingly. Tremendous job. See page 260 of the thread.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> That guy on the Aune T1 thread did an amazing job reviewing tubes, making adapters. He went through so many tubes and score the good ones accordingly. Tremendous job. See page 260 of the thread.


 
  
 Indeed!  CoiL and lwrs really did bring it on with all the tubes.  With the review and compatibility.


----------



## UntilThen

Maybe I should keep the Aune T1.  It's one of those gadgets that works and is not expensive.


----------



## UntilThen

eBay seller just replied that their adapters pin are longer than others. About 15mm longer so should be ok she said !
 Ordering.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Famous last words....lol......
> 
> Me too....I said no more tubes for a while....When I purchased my last adapters for the WA2 there were some Tesla EZ80s (rectifiers for the WA2) that came up on the "you might be interested in these" page..lol...So, five days ago I put a bid on them and forgot about it...I woke up this morning with the "YOU WON" email...Hahaha




Don't you love it when that happens? I've picked up tubes for as little as $0.01 plus shipping exactly the same way.

Had a couple $4 tubes arrive today. Both NOS. Why am I not listening to them? Because, the freakin' adapter is still in China. 

I shod a DV with a 7AF7 and a Chatham yesterday. Wow. Clarity, detail, and definition for days. Terrific sense of depth. A totally enveloping soundfield with DT990pro.


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> I shod a DV with a 7AF7 and a Chatham yesterday. Wow. Clarity, detail, and definition for days. Terrific sense of depth. A totally enveloping soundfield with DT990pro.


 
 Ummmm those 7AF7 are 7N7 on steroids? Very tempting since I already have the adapters.
  
 HF you should check out the Elise thread. Some fancy and exciting new tube experimentation there. I think your chemistry picture really applies.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Ummmm those 7AF7 are 7N7 on steroids? Very tempting since I already have the adapters.




They're a little more detailed. That's the most obvious sonic difference. They do everything better than a 7N7, but by a _very _small margin. They're also more difficult to find and typically cost a lot more. In all honesty, I cannot recommend paying a significantly higher price for 7AF7s, as the improvement is marginal.



> HF you should check out the Elise thread. Some fancy and exciting new tube experimentation there. I think your chemistry picture really applies.




Yes!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the advice on the 7AF7 Shaffer. I will skip it then.
  
 These came today. After a soft wipe on the glass and metal bits I sat down for a listening session with Sylvania 6SN7WGT on the DV. I have gone through 10 of my favourite songs and these are the best sounding power tubes I have heard to date. I've always gone on and on about how I like warm and lush and these present them just perfect. It's not overly warm but just perfect now that I've heard it. Furthermore what is immediately noticeable is the clarity of the vocals and accompanying musical instruments. It is fast, dynamic and lively and yet subdue on slower music. Soundstage is definitely better from what I have experience before. I didn't expect a tube to change the sound so subtly but it did to my ears. These will undoubtedly be my favourite power tubes until the Tung Sol 6AS7G and 5998 arrives. It should be interesting then how they compare with the Mullard CV2984/6080.
  
 I should state that prior to this I have only listen to RCA JAN 6AS7G, GE 6AS7G, HP 6080, Dumont 6080WA, GE 6AS7GA, RCA 6AS7GA.


----------



## sabrehagen

I have the Darkvoice 336 amp and I'm looking to buy some new tubes for it. The tube type is a 6AS7G and the site says "Only buy if your amp or preamp can handle the 5 amp filament". How do I know if this amp is able to handle a 5 amp filament? Thanks!


----------



## Oskari

The 6AS7G has a 2.5 A heater. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 5 A will likely let the magic smoke escape in fairly short order.


----------



## Shaffer

sabrehagen said:


> I have the Darkvoice 336 amp and I'm looking to buy some new tubes for it. The tube type is a 6AS7G and the site says "Only buy if your amp or preamp can handle the 5 amp filament". How do I know if this amp is able to handle a 5 amp filament? Thanks!




Your amp was designed to run a single 6AS7G. It draws ~2.5A. The amp can also run a 6080 which draws ~2.75A. As a note of comparison, last night I was running a 6BL7. It draws ~1.5A, but produces far less power.


----------



## UntilThen

Can you link the site where you're buying the 6AS7G? Doesn't seem right. I've never come across such a note for 6AS7G tubes.


----------



## sabrehagen

Here's the eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221872152355?_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 When experimenting, I've found the power amp tube has the greatest impact on sound. I'm seeking a tube with good bass representation, and maybe a warm tone. I had hoped this tube might make the difference. If you know any tube that fits that description I'd love to know of it!


----------



## Shaffer

That's a 6336, not a 6AS7G. Our amps cannot run the tube.


----------



## UntilThen

That is a 6336 and it's not suitable. Never use it or risk blowing up your amp. 
  
 What power tube are you using at the moment. If you're already using RCA 6AS7G then you would probably have to step up to a Chatham 6AS7G. Tung Sol 5998 will definitely give you better bass but is quite expensive. They are about $100 a tube.


----------



## UntilThen

Raytheon 7N7 just arrived today. 1957 pretty old lol. NOS NIB. Unfortunately there's hum so will leave it on the whole day.
 Paired with Mullard CV2984. As has been shared, the 7N7 sound lovely. Highly recommended.


----------



## sabrehagen

Thank you, this is really valuable information. Weird, the listing title says 6AS7G. To an amateur like me that's an easy mistake to make! I bought this tube, it should work right? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RCA-5692-PREMIUM-6SN7GT-VACUUM-TUBE-/221871901698?_ilink=&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI221871901698.N9.S1.M-330.R1.TR4&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ko7KTaz1%252FI6oq1USOvYRqzdTg3o%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> Your amp was designed to run a single 6AS7G. It draws ~2.5A. The amp can also run a 6080 which draws ~2.75A. As a note of comparison, last night I was running a 6BL7. It draws ~1.5A, but produces far less power.


  

 Thank you, this is really valuable information. Weird, the listing title says 6AS7G. To an amateur like me that's an easy mistake to make! I bought this tube, it should work right? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RCA-5692-PREMIUM-6SN7GT-VACUUM-TUBE-/221871901698?_ilink=&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI221871901698.N9.S1.M-330.R1.TR4&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ko7KTaz1%252FI6oq1USOvYRqzdTg3o%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
  
 Quote: 





untilthen said:


> That is a 6336 and it's not suitable. Never use it or risk blowing up your amp.
> 
> What power tube are you using at the moment. If you're already using RCA 6AS7G then you would probably have to step up to a Chatham 6AS7G. Tung Sol 5998 will definitely give you better bass but is quite expensive. They are about $100 a tube.


 
 I have an RCA 6AS7G on hand, but one channel is weak using that tube. I have a Tung-Sol 6AS7G in now. The Chatham 6AS7G is a step up from this?


----------



## UntilThen

The RCA 5692 can be use as a driver tube. The genuine 5692 is supposed to be good but there has been rebranding. At worst you'll have a 6SN7GTB equivalent but let's hope you got the real stuff. Tell us when you try it.
  
 Your RCA 6AS7G might be defective.
  
 Tung Sol bought over Chatham. So Tung Sol / Chatham 6AS7G are equivalent. However earlier Tung Sols are rebranded RCA so is not as good. That being said most people would be happy with a RCA 6AS7G. Nothing really wrong with that. Quite an enjoyable listen for a lower price. If you really want to try out the Chatham 6AS7G here is a picture to help identify. It has the copper rod. Chatham are pretty expensive now due to all the good reviews given it. This is selling for US$90 on ebay.
  
 How do you find your Tung Sol 6AS7G? I have a pair coming so I can't comment yet.


----------



## UntilThen

A Chatham 6AS7G with copper rod.


----------



## sabrehagen

untilthen said:


> The RCA 5692 can be use as a driver tube. The genuine 5692 is supposed to be good but there has been rebranding. At worst you'll have a 6SN7GTB equivalent but let's hope you got the real stuff. Tell us when you try it.
> 
> Your RCA 6AS7G might be defective.
> 
> Tung Sol bought over Chatham. So Tung Sol / Chatham 6AS7G are equivalent. However earlier Tung Sols are rebranded RCA so is not as good. That being said most people would be happy with a RCA 6AS7G. Nothing really wrong with that. Quite an enjoyable listen for a lower price. If you really want to try out the Chatham 6AS7G here is a picture to help identify. It has the copper rod. Chatham are pretty expensive now due to all the good reviews given it. This is selling for US$90 on ebay.


 
 I'll let you know how it goes 
  
 Being new to tubes, I know nothing of the nature their faults. If the RCA 6AS7G is defective, is it done and dusted for good?
  
 Interesting - I just read through your profile - we're very alike  I work in IT, have interests in music and photography, primary headphones are DT 880s, only tube amp is Darkvoice 336i, and my source files are all FLAC. It's like reading a horoscope haha. My Darkvoice is going to be paired with a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and their Phono II preamp along with my DT 880s.


----------



## UntilThen

Seems to me like it's defective the RCA 6AS7G if one channel is weak. If the Tung Sol does not have that problem then it's probably a defective RCA 6AS7G and can be toss away.
  
 I mainly listen with HD650 now. Paired with the DV it is a lovely combination.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> The RCA 5692 can be use as a driver tube. The genuine 5692 is supposed to be good but there has been rebranding. At worst you'll have a 6SN7GTB equivalent but let's hope you got the real stuff. Tell us when you try it.




I'm sorry, UT, I have to disagree with the recommendation. Not only is the 5692 outrageously expensive, but our amps tend to run it at full blast, shortening its lifespan. There are terrific driver tubes that can be had for $10-$20 and that's where a newb should begin: Tung-Sol (the "regular") 6SN7. It comes in 3 sizes. CBS/Hytron 6SN7 are killer and can be had for under $20 all day long. Same goes for Baldwin - relabeled _selected _Sylvania and Raytheon. BTW, Sylvania (brand) 6SN7 are plentiful can can also be had tested within the same price range, as can Raytheon 6SN7. They're all good sounding tubes.

Output tubes. personally, I like vintage RCA 6080 that can be bought for as little as $11. Sylvania NOS 6080 usually sell for ~$15. RCA 6AS7G are going up in price, but one can still snag a nice one for $25, black or grey plate version. Russian output tubes are very good, as well, but the shipping can take a while. I would not recommend going for top shelf right away, just as I wouldn't recommend buying a Ferrari after having a driver's licence for a year. 

That's where I'd suggest starting out.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Raytheon 7N7 just arrived today. 1957 pretty old lol. NOS NIB. Unfortunately there's hum so will leave it on the whole day.
> Paired with Mullard CV2984. As has been shared, the 7N7 sound lovely. Highly recommended.


 
 Those look nice UntilThen! Hum might indeed reduce after a bit of burn-in. Even if not, try them in the Elise when you get her, the hum might be reduced or even gone. Good luck!


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> I'm sorry, UT, I have to disagree with the recommendation. Not only is the 5692 outrageously expensive, but our amps tend to run it at full blast, shortening its lifespan. There are terrific driver tubes that can be had for $10-$20 and that's where a newb should begin: Tung-Sol (the "regular") 6SN7. It comes in 3 sizes. CBS/Hytron 6SN7 are killer and can be had for under $20 all day long. Same goes for Baldwin - relabeled _selected _Sylvania and Raytheon. BTW, Sylvania (brand) 6SN7 are plentiful can can also be had tested within the same price range, as can Raytheon 6SN7. They're all good sounding tubes.
> 
> Output tubes. personally, I like vintage RCA 6080 that can be bought for as little as $11. Sylvania NOS 6080 usually sell for ~$15. RCA 6AS7G are going up in price, but one can still snag a nice one for $25, black or grey plate version. Russian output tubes are very good, as well, but the shipping can take a while. I would not recommend going for top shelf right away, just as I wouldn't recommend buying a Ferrari after having a driver's licence for a year.
> 
> That's where I'd suggest starting out.


 
 Legend. Thank you for the advice. Are there any ebay links you could send my way to get me started?


----------



## UntilThen

renderman said:


> Those look nice UntilThen! Hum might indeed reduce after a bit of burn-in. Even if not, try them in the Elise when you get her, the hum might be reduced or even gone. Good luck!


 

 Thanks Ren. They were indeed bought for Elise but trying it out on DV now. It's good to have 2 amps sharing the same tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

sabrehagen said:


> Legend. Thank you for the advice. Are there any ebay links you could send my way to get me started?




Let me ask you first what sort of sound you prefer?


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> Let me ask you first what sort of sound you prefer?


 
 The current sound I get from my DarkVoice with an RCA tube in the preamp (unknown make/model) and a Tung-Sol 6AS7G in the power amp is a thin soundstage with mediocre bass response and definition. Primarily I'm looking for a stronger bass response/tight low end representation. I'd hope for a warm sound overall. Maybe you could describe the sound as 'hot', as is done with guitar pickups and tubes in guitar amps.


----------



## Shaffer

sabrehagen said:


> The current sound I get from my DarkVoice with an RCA tube in the preamp (unknown make/model) and a Tung-Sol 6AS7G in the power amp is a thin soundstage with mediocre bass response and definition. Primarily I'm looking for a stronger bass response/tight low end representation. I'd hope for a warm sound overall. Maybe you could describe the sound as 'hot', as is done with guitar pickups and tubes in guitar amps.




This is what I'd suggest as a driver tube for your DV, given your comments, and keep the TS output tube for now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CBS-Hytron-6SN7GTB-Vintage-Radio-Receiver-Amp-Tube-Possible-NOS-/111765990209?hash=item1a05c5ab41

FWIW, I'd be happy to sell you a RCA 6AS7G grey plate and a Sylvania 6SN7 driver, all vintage and well-tested, at a very reasonable price. It'll bring you closer to your goal and give you a point of comparison, as well as mix and match possibilities. Please feel free to PM if interested.


----------



## Shaffer

[/quote





renderman said:


> Those look nice UntilThen! Hum might indeed reduce after a bit of burn-in. Even if not, try them in the Elise when you get her, the hum might be reduced or even gone. Good luck!




Agreed. No hum in the Elise. In fact, no tube I've tried in the Elise hummed.

A 7N7 needs a lot of breakin. An unusually long time for a driver. FWIW, none of my loctals hum in the DV - even NOS - but I may also be using a different adapter.

Edit: I mention the adapter, because IME some cause a hum and some don't. Most do not, but I recently received one that does. I'm positive it's not the tube. Too, and this doesn't necessarily apply to loctals. Some tubes hate adapters. In my WA6, a set of RCA hums so loud that one can't hear the music, until I remove the socket savers that do not have that effect on any other bottle I've used.


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> This is what I'd suggest as a driver tube for your DV, given your comments, and keep the TS output tube for now:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CBS-Hytron-6SN7GTB-Vintage-Radio-Receiver-Amp-Tube-Possible-NOS-/111765990209?hash=item1a05c5ab41
> 
> FWIW, I'd be happy to sell you a RCA 6AS7G grey plate and a Sylvania 6SN7 driver, all vintage and well-tested, at a very reasonable price. It'll bring you closer to your goal and give you a point of comparison, as well as mix and match possibilities. Please feel free to PM if interested.


 
 Might take you up on it. I'll keep experimenting with the tubes i have and the one on the way and see what results I get...thanks.


----------



## Shaffer

Thinking about this overnight, the CBS tube I link'd is a 6SN7GTB. If you search for CBS 6SN7, you'll find some almost identical-looking 6SN7*GT* (used). That would be an even better match for your tastes, and a slightly better sounding tube all around. Good luck.


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan your tubes arrived together with RCA smoke glass vt231 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Will listen in a bit.


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> Thinking about this overnight, the CBS tube I link'd is a 6SN7GTB. If you search for CBS 6SN7, you'll find some almost identical-looking 6SN7*GT* (used). That would be an even better match for your tastes, and a slightly better sounding tube all around. Good luck.


 
 Thanks Shaffer. I actually have some tubes on hand, but didn't post them first as I didn't want to bias people's responses towards the tubes I already have. Anyway, these are what I already have, hopefully some are close to the CBS you suggested:
  
http://i.imgur.com/5r6FB6u.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/13D9HlA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xBJCpDp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qpijVws.jpg


----------



## Shaffer

sabrehagen said:


> Thanks Shaffer. I actually have some tubes on hand, but didn't post them first as I didn't want to bias people's responses towards the tubes I already have. Anyway, these are what I already have, hopefully some are close to the CBS you suggested:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/5r6FB6u.jpg
> [COLOR=FF4400]http://i.imgur.com/13D9HlA.jpg[/COLOR]
> ...




That's a very nice selection! There's one I wouldn't mind having, myself. You even have a Baldwin and you certainly don't need the Sylvania I offered you, as you have plenty. The tubes are very good.


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> That's a very nice selection! There's one I wouldn't mind having, myself. You even have a Baldwin and you certainly don't need the Sylvania I offered you, as you have plenty. The tubes are very good.


 
 Haven't tried the Baldwin yet. The Sylvanias have been the best performers so far, but believe it or not the Australian made Minniwatt has been the most impressive one yet! *cue Australian pride*. It has a great representation of all frequencies, better than all others I've tried, and pips the Sylvanias too.


----------



## Shaffer

sabrehagen said:


> Haven't tried the Baldwin yet. The Sylvanias have been the best performers so far, but* believe it or not the Australian made Minniwatt has been the most impressive one yet! *cue Australian pride*. It has a great representation of all frequencies, better than all others I've tried, and pips the Sylvanias too.*




Wait, this is the first we hear about the Australian Miniwatt 6SN7? UT, sounds like a good thing for you to try. Hell, I'd love to hear one, myself. Good tip, S.


----------



## sabrehagen

shaffer said:


> Wait, this is the first we hear about the Australian Miniwatt 6SN7? UT, sounds like a good thing for you to try. Hell, I'd love to hear one, myself. Good tip, S.


 
 Yep, it's labeled Miniwatt Made In Australia 6SN7 GTA UG. For a company to make tubes in Australia one would expect their quality to be high because they wouldn't be being made on mass. Very small market here. Plus Australian quality standards are very high. I look forward to comparing it to the RCA 5692 PREMIUM 6SN7GT when it arrives as that's touted as a nice tube from what I've read from other members.


----------



## Shaffer

It'll be very interesting to hear your impressions.

Coincidentally, I'm expecting a Philips Miniwatt myself. A GZ34 rectifier. For a different amp, obviously.

ATM, one of my DVs is running a CBS 6SN7GT with a JAN Chatham, and the other DV is shod with a Tung-Sol short bottle 6SN7GTB and a JAN RCA 6080WA. All four tube amps are on, the lights are off, and it's not an unattractive thing to see.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HeatFan your tubes arrived together with RCA smoke glass vt231
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hey guys!!!
 Awesome UT!!!  That journey to Oz was a long one...lol....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Great activity on the thread....Catching up...
  
 I saw the Elise thread with those tubes...Amazing!
  
 The 6SN7 to 6922 adapters arrived for the WA2.  And it was close....Fit perfectly with no room to wiggle with the socket opening...lol...
  
 Rockin' some Baldwin GTBs....


----------



## UntilThen

Wow nice pics HF! Those adapters looks perfect on your Wa2.
  
 Yes your tubes travelled a long way. Thanks. I have an amazing time today with 3 drivers to test and listen to. The 6CG7 and 6GU7 sounded lovely, the latter was a surprise. 6CG7 is nice but 6GU7 is no slouch either. Really enjoyable. RCA smoke glass is as I expected it to be. Just my kind of tune. I haven't stop listening to all 3 since morning !


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks UT!  Glad you liked the tubes...
  
 That's right, you received the CV2984/6080...Oh boy, would love to hear your impressions when the TS 6AS7G and 5998 arrive....
  
 When I saw the 6SN7 adapters for the WA2, I thought, they were not going to fit...lol...Too wide...But, they seated perfectly....


----------



## UntilThen

The fit is perfect on the photo. Did it sound better with the 6SN7 in your Wa2?


----------



## UntilThen

6CG7 looking pretty


----------



## HeatFan12

That 6CG7 is really looking pretty on the DV indeed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 The fit of the 6SN7 adapter on the WA2 is perfect.  Very snug but it was close.  The other adapters I received for the WA2 (5670/2C51 & 5687) had room to spare.
 I'm loving the 6SN7 out of the WA2.  It's just a rich, full sound.  Like you guys (Elise), a pair of 6SN7 drivers is awesome.  I have only used pairs of 6SN7 as power tubes.
  
 Flexibility with adapters is just amazing.....Future-proofing at it's finest....!!!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Remember UT, since you have that 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter...In the DV,* tried and tested*, on that adapter you can use (where you at Shaff?!?)....6CG7, 6GU7, 6BK7B, 6BZ7, 6BQ7A, 6BZ8, 6BC8, 6BS8, 6922, 6DJ8, ECC88, 6H30PiEH....More to come!!!!!!
  
 Good Times!!!!!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Oh I bought another pair of 6922 to 6SN7 adapters thinking they are different 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 It will take me a year to try all those tubes you listed good times indeed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Come on Shaffer share your goodies


----------



## UntilThen

heatfan12 said:


> Remember UT, since you have that 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter...In the DV,* tried and tested*, on that adapter you can use (where you at Shaff?!?)....6CG7, 6GU7, 6BK7B, 6BZ7, 6BQ7A, 6BZ8, 6BC8, 6BS8, 6922, 6DJ8, ECC88, 6H30PiEH....More to come!!!!!!


 
 Some of these tubes are cheap which is what I want !!!


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Oh I bought another pair of 6922 to 6SN7 adapters thinking they are different
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hmmm.  I don't have a 6922 to 6SN7 adapter.  I have tried several 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 tubes with my 6CG7 adapter.


----------



## UntilThen

6CG7 is 6.3 volts same as 6SN7GT the predecessor but I thought 6CG7 sounded louder to me or is it my imagination.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> 6CG7 is 6.3 volts same as 6SN7GT the predecessor but I thought 6CG7 sounded louder to me or is it my imagination.




It may have a higher Mu than a 6SN7, which can translate into more gain.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> That 6CG7 is really looking pretty on the DV indeed...
> 
> 
> The fit of the 6SN7 adapter on the WA2 is perfect.  Very snug but it was close.  The other adapters I received for the WA2 (5670/2C51 & 5687) had room to spare.
> ...




Looks like there's a few more tubes I need to try. FWIW, generally, I found 6CG7 adapters to work better than 6922 adapters: more versatile and no stage behavior in the Elise. I actually use the 6922 adapters with the DV with 6922 and other tubes and there's still an issue, albeit not as big as the one with the Elise. Turning the volume all the way down with a 6922 adapter crates a noise that could wake one from a coma vs the same adapters in the Elise that will wake the dead at any position of the volume knob.

My WA6, however, has a slight buzz that increases as the volume goes up. My Furutech buzz/hum killer power cord reduced it by a bit, but the cord is better utilized by the Elise. None of my other cords or interconnects had any effect. My area is laden with RFI, so this sort of thing happens quite a bit. The DVs are totally silent, FWIW, but the Elise did need a little help.

Edit: Almost forgot to sat that we can start talking about the tubes you kindly sent us fairly soon. Once UT gets a good listen to his.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I'm listening into the night mainly focussed on these 3 drivers:-
  
 6CG7
 6GU7
 RCA JAN 6SN7GT smoke glass VT231
  
 Power tube used is the Mullard CV2984 with HD650.
  
 I'm mainly focussed on vocals particularly female vocals. Diana Krall, Katie Melua, Katherine Jenkins, Randy Crawford.
  
 I haven't finish yet but I'm liking both 6CG7 and the RCA a lot. Different sound signature but very enjoyable. More to follow...


----------



## Shaffer

UT, do you find the 6CG7 to sound quite warm? It's a nice tube for overly bright recordings, IME.

I totally dig the 6GU7. So much so that I just spent the recently refunded Paypal funds on a NOS Sylvania 6GU7 a NOS Tung-Sol 6BZ8 all for less than $9. Both in original boxes. Gotta love the options ... and the prices!


----------



## UntilThen

On the contrary it's not. 6CG7 is airy and transparent especially after listening to the RCA vt231 which is warm and lush. Both have a different type of sweet mid-range. I can't decide which I like more. They are different. I shall hold off my findings till I'm finished.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> On the contrary it's not. *6CG7 is airy and transparent especially after listening to the RCA vt231 which is warm and lush.* Both have a different type of sweet mid-range. I can't decide which I like more. They are different. I shall hold off my findings till I'm finished.




Not surprising, given how the RCA sounds. Very warm, bordering heavily on dark. Not exactly the beacon of resolution. As you can probably tell, it's not my cup of tea. I prefer as transparent sound as possible. Try listening to a 6CG7 next to a relatively neutral tube and see what you think. 

BTW, as I was digging through an old box of small signal tubes, I came across a 6DC8. Realistic brand made in the UK. Mesh plates. It works with the same adapter. Warming up right now....


----------



## UntilThen

True RCA smoke glass vt231 is warm even for winter. Great mid range and bass though. I can listen to it for hours.
  
 I have since switch to Sylvania 6sn7wgt brown base comparing 6cg7 with it. Now we get a closer comparison. 6cg7 has a more forward mid-range and treble sparkle. It's an arresting sound. Sylvania's mid range in comparison seem a bit more recessed and not as pronounced treble. Both are lighter on bass but sufficient for me to enjoy the vocals. I find myself liking the 6cg7 more which is a surprise. Both are immensely enjoyable with female vocals which is another surprise for me seeing I like the warmer sound of the RCA too. It's a refreshing change like stepping into sunshine but I'm a night owl most times hence prefer the 'dark' lol.
  
 6cu7 will have to wait for tomorrow. I have too much fun for one day.


----------



## Shaffer

As the tube appeals to you this much, you may want to look for a second for the Elise. It's not a dark, lush sounding amplifier out of the box, but you can certainly make it into one.


----------



## UntilThen

Another surprise as I listened to the 6GU7 for the last 2 hours. Everything I like about the 6CG7 is there with a bit less soundstage but just as great on vocals. Randy Crawford's 'Rainy nights in Georgia' sounded just so lovely.
  
 Thanks HeatFan for sending me these lovely tubes to try. PM me your address I want to send you something for Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

HF how come you don't show your Sylvania W short?


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Another surprise as I listened to the 6GU7 for the last 2 hours. Everything I like about the 6CG7 is there with a bit less soundstage but just as great on vocals. Randy Crawford's 'Rainy nights in Georgia' sounded just so lovely.
> 
> Thanks HeatFan for sending me these lovely tubes to try. PM me your address I want to send you something for Christmas.




Agreed! A *BIG *note of thanks to HF!

I like the 6GU7 quite a bit. It sounds relatively open, more resolving than I expected, good extension all a round, fairly clear mids. I've actually ordered NOS equivalents of both tubes. A NOS Sylvania 6CG7 has been burning in for a few days and sounding better and better. Still more on the mellow side of neutral and a bit rolled-off on top, but very nice with the right tube in the back. This, compared to what I just posted about the TS rectifier in the Elise thread. You'll see what I mean.

A couple more substitutions are coming. I'll post more, once I can hear them.


----------



## UntilThen

might try 6bq7a and 6bc8 at $2 each. my postage many times more than that.


----------



## HeatFan12

Hey guys!
 It was my pleasure!!  Glad you guys are rockin' the tubes.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 We've discovered some good ones...The 6BC8, 6BS8 and 6BK7B really surprised me.  Not only compatibility but they sound good.
  
 6SN7W came out to play tonight UT!....lol
  
 A Sylvania combo 6AS7GA & 6SN7W


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> might try 6bq7a and 6bc8 at $2 each. my postage many times more than that.




I recall a beginner question in economics, "Why do we have better oranges in NY, on a more consistent basis, than in Florida where they're grown?" It's because one has to buy the oranges a ticket to get to NY from Florida, so it makes most sense to ship the better fruit. Your case is very similar; you have to buy a tube a relatively expensive ticket, so on a relative level it's most effective to purchase the best tube you can. Hope that made sense.


----------



## UntilThen

That's the one HF. Look after it well.  The price for that new on eBay is a shocker.
  
 Precisely Shaffer. High shipping cost is the reason why I'm selective on the tubes I buy. I haven't push the button on those tubes and probably won't.


----------



## sabrehagen

A new addition to the family tonight (not the darkvoice )


----------



## Shaffer

Congratulations! What do you think of the sound?

Edit: Do we all use Beyers? Kinda seems like it. Admittedly, the dynamics generated by the DV driving DT888/600 can be pretty impressive; I can feel my scull shifting its position with the right album.


----------



## HeatFan12

Great pics guys!!!!!!
  
 Some vinyl love for the DV!!!!


----------



## ru4music

heatfan12 said:


> Great pics guys!!!!!!
> 
> Some vinyl love for the DV!!!!


 

 OK @HeatFan12, I've found the thread!


----------



## Shaffer

A batch of 7N7 adapters finally made it to my mailbox this morning. Finally, I can audition 7N7 and 7AF7 in the DV. ATM, a DV is shod with a medium bottle JAN 7N7 and a JAN Chatham 6AS7G. The sound is very clear, significantly more transparent and delineated. The bass is the tightest I've heard yet from this amp. This being said, it's not a euphoric-sounding tube; it's more reflective of the source.


----------



## HeatFan12

ru4music said:


> OK @HeatFan12, I've found the thread!


 
  
 Welcome to the madness @ru4music...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  


shaffer said:


> A batch of 7N7 adapters finally made it to my mailbox this morning. Finally, I can audition 7N7 and 7AF7 in the DV. ATM, a DV is shod with a medium bottle JAN 7N7 and a JAN Chatham 6AS7G. The sound is very clear, significantly more transparent and delineated. The bass is the tightest I've heard yet from this amp. This being said, it's not a euphoric-sounding tube; it's more reflective of the source.


 
  
  
 That's great Shaff!  The best part of the 7N7s is their clarity and detail, imo.  Was trying a ..GT VT-231 earlier.  Very fun tube.....Have to burn it in a lot more though.
  
 I will join you later with a 7N7.  Have a Delco branded I have not listened to in a while.
  
 But first, another Sylvania combo wanted to play..lol
  
 Still with the Sylvania 6AS7GA....His partner now is a Sylvania Gold 5670.  Shorty can rock it indeed!!!


----------



## ru4music

heatfan12 said:


> Welcome to the madness @ru4music...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So what adapters do you know will work with the WA2 (e.g. 6SN7, 5670/ 396A ..?)  I would like to order most of them all-at-once from the ebay provider you gave me.


----------



## HeatFan12

ru4music said:


> So what adapters do you know will work with the WA2 (e.g. 6SN7, 5670/ 396A ..?)  I would like to order most of them all-at-once from the ebay provider you gave me.


 
  
  
 For the WA2 I have purchased three adapters (6SN7 to 6922)(5687 to 6922)(5670/2c51/396A to 6922).  I already had a small collection of those tubes that I use in other amps, so did some research and emailed various sellers on adapters then pulled the trigger.  The inexpensive drivers are drop-in replacements, no adapters needed.
  
  
*DV & WA2 driver tube love:*
  
  
*DV*
  
*With adapters:*
  
*7N7 & 7AF7* (7N7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*5670 / 2c51 / 396A* (2c51 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*5687* (5687 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6CG7 & 6GU7* (6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6922 / 6DJ8 / ECC88* (6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6BK7B & 6BQ7A/6BZ7 & 6BZ8 & 6BS8 & 6BC8* *&* *6H30Pi (EH) *(6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter)
  
*6F8G* (6F8G to 6SN7 adapter w/ cap) **(have not personally tried these)
  
  
  
  
  
*WA2*
  
*With adapters:*
  
*5670 / 2c51 / 396A* (2c51 to 6922 adapter)
  
*5687* (5687 to 6922 adapter)
  
*6SN7* (6SN7 to 6922 adapter)
  
  
*Without adapters (drop-in):*
  
*6BK7B & 6BQ7A/6BZ7 & 6BZ8 & 6BS8 & 6BC8* *&* *6H30Pi (EH)*
  
  
  
*Cheers!*
  
 First page updated!!!


----------



## HeatFan12

Where you at UT?!?  I think he received the 5998s and said "I'm done"....lol.....
  
  
 Shaff, the Delco was a 7AF7 not 7N7...Needed some love tonight!!!!
  
  
 Cheers!!!!


----------



## Shaffer

The 7AF7 is a great tube! I'm running one, myself, in the DV2. Received more 7N7 adapters today.


----------



## ru4music

heatfan12 said:


> For the WA2 I have purchased three adapters (6SN7 to 6922)(5687 to 6922)(5670/2c51/396A to 6922).  I already had a small collection of those tubes that I use in other amps, so did some research and emailed various sellers on adapters then pulled the trigger.  The inexpensive drivers are drop-in replacements, no adapters needed.
> 
> 
> *DV & WA2 driver tube love:*
> ...


 

 Thanks for the input!


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> The 7AF7 is a great tube! I'm running one, myself, in the DV2. Received more 7N7 adapters today.


 
 Indeed!   We can never have too many adapters Shaff!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  


ru4music said:


> Thanks for the input!


 
 Thanks!  My pleasure!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 BTW, UT is on holiday!!!
  
  
 Going back to basics tonight.  No adapters...lol.....Highly regarded in the 6F8G realm.  The National Union 6SN7GT!  A Classic!!!!
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## Renderman

heatfan12 said:


> Indeed!   We can never have too many adapters Shaff!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I like it, I also have a set of NU 6SN7GT's for my Elise, One of the best sounding 6SN7's in my opinion. What do you think off their sound HF?


----------



## Shaffer

I just have a single black NU with a Magnavox brand. Like it quite a bit. Those JAN NUs look mighty tasty.


----------



## UntilThen

Greetings everyone. Lots of activities I see in my absence. Renderman I thought you're running quad GEC 6AS7Gs and quad NUs there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 All nice tubes there from HF too. I got home and I have tubes waiting for me. 5998, Chatham 6AS7G, 6922 to 6SN7 adapters. Still quite a lot haven't arrived.
  
 Here's a pic of the Chatham 6AS7G and Motorola 6SN7GTB. The Chathams are indeed nice but it's the 5998 that impressed. I'll talk about that later.


----------



## Shaffer

Guys, I've come to the conclusion that I don't really need two DV, so I'll be selling one in the classifieds. I'd prefer to sell it to someone interested in this thread, so fair warning, please shoot me a PM if interested, I'm keeping the other DV, Love it.


----------



## UntilThen

Sell it to Renderman. He should be convinced now that we love our DVs.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Sell it to Renderman. He should be convinced now that we love our DVs.




I'd love for him to buy it. Shipping may be a barrier; he's in Holland. The box is fairly small, though.


----------



## UntilThen

Ren don't let this opportunity go. This amp is amazing for it's price. You can rock it or you can jazz it. It's quite happy doing everything. Plus you can use all your tubes from Elise.


----------



## HeatFan12

renderman said:


> I like it, I also have a set of NU 6SN7GT's for my Elise, One of the best sounding 6SN7's in my opinion. What do you think off their sound HF?


 
  
  
 Awesome pic Renderman!!!
  
 I love the NU 6SN7GT.  Been rolling so many tubes, the 6SN7 has taken a back seat.  Gotta come back to them!
  
  
  


untilthen said:


> Greetings everyone. Lots of activities I see in my absence. Renderman I thought you're running quad GEC 6AS7Gs and quad NUs there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Welcome back UT!!!
  
 Thanks!
  
 Awesome pic!
  
 I take it you liked the 5998? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


shaffer said:


> Guys, I've come to the conclusion that I don't really need two DV, so I'll be selling one in the classifieds. I'd prefer to sell it to someone interested in this thread, so fair warning, please shoot me a PM if interested, I'm keeping the other DV, Love it.


 
  
  
 The DV2 is going away Shaff?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 Giving the adapters a rest tonight and keeping with the 6SN7GT smoked glass ride. ...Dug up a U.S. Navy CKR 6SN7GT....Sounding delicious!!!!
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## UntilThen

I love anything black or smoke glass they have mytical powers.

Like is too mild a word for the 5998. I'm afraid if I listen to them too much I won't want to go back to the other power tubes again.

One of the 5998 blew up and I'm seeking a refund from a seller who has deregistered from eBay. See it's not only good, it has drama too.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> The DV2 is going away Shaff?  :eek:




I'm afraid so. Just don't need two, but what I do need is this amp I have an eye on that can also conceivably drive a recently acquired pair of mini-monitors. Ahh, who am I kidding? I'll spend the money on tubes and never listen to the mini-monitors with my big system sitting right there.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> [...]
> 
> One of the 5998 blew up and I'm seeking a refund from a seller who has deregistered from eBay.* See it's not only good, it has drama too.*




LOL!!


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I'm afraid so. Just don't need two, but what I do need is this amp I have an eye on that can also conceivably drive a recently acquired pair of mini-monitors. Ahh, who am I kidding? I'll spend the money on tubes and never listen to the mini-monitors with my big system sitting right there.




I might be interested in that DV have some nice parts to mod it with.. PM sent Shaffer!


----------



## UntilThen

Good on ya Ren. Now you're part of the Darkie Club


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Good on ya Ren. Now you're part of the Darkie Club




OMG! Here i go... Further down the rabbit hole..


----------



## UntilThen

wow you know how to mod the DV. I wish I could. I will seek out someone to do it. DV and Elise just make sense to be together.


----------



## UntilThen

HF I'm running 6SN7 on my Aune T1 with adapter.    Works !!!


----------



## HeatFan12

renderman said:


> OMG! Here i go... Further down the rabbit hole..


 
  
  
 Nice!!!  Like UT said, welcome to the Darkie Club Ren!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  


untilthen said:


> HF I'm running 6SN7 on my Aune T1 with adapter.    Works !!!


 
  
  
 Great news UT!!!  Figured if the base was not an issue it would work.  Good choice on the blue and white adapter.  Look at that adapter love pic.....Good times indeed!!!


----------



## Shaffer

We just need an inexpensive way to ship the amp from the US to Holland. Any experience with this? The pricing quotes I'm getting seem high.


----------



## UntilThen

There's no way around it. Shipping an amp that weighs about 5.5kgs will cost especially with insurance and registration.
  
 Can you imagine sending it's bigger brother the La Figaro 339 that weighs 13kgs. 
  
 Shipping for the Elise from Poland to Australia cost US$120 but Feliks Audio was willing to bear half the cost as mine is the 1st unit to Australia according to Lukasz. For that I'll do a roadshow with Elise around Australia.


----------



## Shaffer

I guess there's no getting around the shipping cost.

It's interesting how people shop. I listed the amp at a very fair price. When I see an item that I want, and it's cost is within the range I had in mind, I send a PM, get the sellers paypal and pay for it right away. You should see some of the PMs I've been getting. Everybody says they want it, no money to be seen.


----------



## HeatFan12

Well, since UT is using a 6SN7 on the Aune and Shaff is parting ways with the DV2 and Renderman is joining the club, I made it an all 6SN7 day.  Give the adapters more rest...lol
  
 Cheers!!!
  
  
 A hidden gem I found in the rough........Hytron brown base CHY 6SN7...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  
  
 A little Ken-Rad love on the SLAM
  
  

  
  
  
  
 And a little K-R on the DV...


----------



## UntilThen

HF you have a very nice collection of tubes. Is that a HD650 with a HD600 headband?
 Doesn't look like either of those.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF you have a very nice collection of tubes. Is that a HD650 with a HD600 headband?
> Doesn't look like either of those.


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's an HD580...Using an HD650 stock cable....


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan I have a pair of ECC31 with adapters coming to be used as drivers in Elise.
  
 Do you know or have you use ECC31 in your Darkvoice? Will it send my DV into early retirement?


----------



## UntilThen

Found this on Shenzhen Audio website. They're sellers of Darkvoice 336se on eBay.
  
 "Yes, can use 6AS7 and 6SN7 instand of 6N5P and 6N8P. P.S. 1). 6AS7 , 6080, 5998, 6H5C instead of 6N5P. 2). 6H8C, 6SN7, CV181, 5692, ECC33 instead of 6N8P. Thanks."
  
 I've submitted a more specific question on the use of ECC31 with adapters...ie can the DV handle 0.95A of heater current.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> *I guess there's no getting around the shipping cost.*
> 
> It's interesting how people shop. I listed the amp at a very fair price. When I see an item that I want, and it's cost is within the range I had in mind, I send a PM, get the sellers paypal and pay for it right away. You should see some of the PMs I've been getting. Everybody says they want it, no money to be seen.


 
 Unfortunatly I will not be joining the DV club. Shaffer offered the DV to me at a *very *good price. However, the shipping costs prevent me from buying it. When the shipping costs are more then half the price of the item (closer to two thirds!) I just can not bring myself to buy it.
  
 Anyone from the US planning a trip to Europe anytime soon?


----------



## UntilThen

Or you can take a holiday to the US 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Shipping costs are killers unfortunately.
  
 I just enquired about the shipping cost for one ECC31 from UK with insurance. Seller told me it's 14 GBP and no insurance since it's glass. Is that true you cannot insure tubes?


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Or you can take a holiday to the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I believe shipping to you was about 25 euros, here all packages are insured (up to a value of 550 euros total). I never heard you can not insure tubes but, any shipping entity can make their own rules I guess. You ask the seller to check their terms and show you the part where glass and/or tubes are mentioned.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Or you can take a holiday to the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would like to go there! Even just to admire Shaffers venerable collection of tube amps 
  
 Shipping costs seem to be manly high with US companies, looking for cheaper alternatives to send Shaffer his GZ34 I saw that shipping to him with USPS would be about $80 or more! While using standard PostNL shipping is only 18 euros. Not sure if they have higher operational costs because of higher wages, etc or what is exactly going on there.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I would like to go there! Even just to admire Shaffers venerable collection of tube amps




You're welcome here anytime. Always know that you have a place to stay. We'd love to have you.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> You're welcome here anytime. Always know that you have a place to stay. We'd love to have you.


 
 Wow Shaffer, that is very generous of you! If I ever find myself in the US I might just take you up on that


----------



## UntilThen

heatfan12 said:


> Thanks UT!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 HD580 is the predecessor to the HD600 / HD650. It will sound real good with those CBS and Ken Rad 6sn7.


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan 2 more weeks 2 more weeks and everything will start arriving .


----------



## UntilThen

Farewell to this thread. My parting tubes combination (Tung Sol 5998 and 7N7 Raytheon) which I really like with the NAD DAC and HD650. It's been a journey and an immensely fun one too. Cheers HeatFan you'll be remembered.


----------



## Shaffer

Well, be that as it may, I have no desire to get rid of my DV; I like it. Above is its nighttime config - a 6BL7 power tube and whichever driver looks good at the time. The 6BL7 has very little power and doesn't love low-z cans, but the sound - OMG! So, I use either HD600 or DT880/600 when the ambient noise is low, and the setup works. Daytime, not so much.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Well, be that as it may, I have no desire to get rid of my DV; I like it. Above is its nighttime config - a 6BL7 power tube and whichever driver looks good at the time. The 6BL7 has very little power and doesn't love low-z cans, but the sound - OMG! So, I use either HD600 or DT880/600 when the ambient noise is low, and the setup works. Daytime, not so much.


 
 Very interesting Shaff! I like the look of the 2 similarly shaped tubes in your DV!  That makes me want to try the Sylvania 6BL7GTA I've got as power tubes in the Elise with my T1.
  
 These have a very sweet sound to them but as you say not for driving low-z cans or as a pre-amp. Will try this right away and report back here soon


----------



## Shaffer

Just bought one of these. $9 shipped. Why fight it?


----------



## mac0211

Any tube recommendations for an HD700, DV 336SE, and Schiit Modi 2 Uber?


----------



## Shaffer

mac0211 said:


> Any tube recommendations for an HD700, DV 336SE, and Schiit Modi 2 Uber?




What sort of sound do you prefer?


----------



## svmusa

Quick question for Darkvoice 336SE owners:
  
 I am looking for an additional small desktop amp and have few 6SN7 tubes, so the search lead to 336SE ($250 - $299) and another contender Rhino VA1 ($399) which is advertising that the amp is based on 336SE the only difference I can gather are 2 Watts output  in VA1 vs 1 Watt on 336SE. 
  
any thoughts or insights which one to go for?


----------



## Sujay Rao

Hi.
 Amazing stuff on the DV threads! Specially from Superpredator.
 Just bought a DarkVoice 336SE and a Beyerdynamic DT990 (600 ohm) off Massdrop. I know the DT990 is very very neutral, but my experience with this combo has been that the midrange is rather thin, the high end is hissing and tinny, and the bass is a bit uninspiring. I am not a bass-head, I am mostly into Classicals and Jazz. But even so, I found the low end very weak. I tried the AKG K553 Pro and the Sound Magic HP 150 with the DV, they sound really nice. I burned in the DV and the DT 990 for about 12 hours. Made a big difference, but these problems are still there. Enough to make it difficult to ignore.
 Do you think I should shift to warmer tubes?
 Regards.


----------



## UntilThen

sujay rao said:


> Hi.
> Amazing stuff on the DV threads! Specially from Superpredator.
> Just bought a DarkVoice 336SE and a Beyerdynamic DT990 (600 ohm) off Massdrop. I know the DT990 is very very neutral, but my experience with this combo has been that the midrange is rather thin, the high end is hissing and tinny, and the bass is a bit uninspiring. I am not a bass-head, I am mostly into Classicals and Jazz. But even so, I found the low end very weak. I tried the AKG K553 Pro and the Sound Magic HP 150 with the DV, they sound really nice. I burned in the DV and the DT 990 for about 12 hours. Made a big difference, but these problems are still there. Enough to make it difficult to ignore.
> Do you think I should shift to warmer tubes?
> Regards.


 

 DV stock tubes are horrible. For not too much money, I suggest you get a RCA 6AS7G(decent bass and organic) and a Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top(sweet and clear) or a RCA 6SN7GT Smoke Glass (this has more warm). You'll love this with your DT990. 
  
 Cheers.
  
 ps if you can afford it, instead of the RCA 6AS7G, get a Tung Sol 5998. This will make you smile big time.
  
 Also look at the posts I make on the tubes I use. All of them are good sounding. I only post the good ones.


----------



## UntilThen

svmusa said:


> Quick question for Darkvoice 336SE owners:
> 
> I am looking for an additional small desktop amp and have few 6SN7 tubes, so the search lead to 336SE ($250 - $299) and another contender Rhino VA1 ($399) which is advertising that the amp is based on 336SE the only difference I can gather are 2 Watts output  in VA1 vs 1 Watt on 336SE.
> 
> any thoughts or insights which one to go for?


 

 Just go for the cheaper Darkvoice 336se and spend the money saved on tubes. You'll need to buy tubes as the stock tubes are really bad. See my post above for a recommendation. There are lots of reasonably good driver and power tube. Depends on your budget. I'm mainly on the Elise thread now. You can reach me there.
  
 Cheers.
  
 1 Watt is massive. The DV336se can drive a Beyer T1 600ohms no problems.


----------



## Mr Rick

Bought a DV336se in the most recent Massdrop. Currently giving it it's first warm-up into my Beyer 880 / 600 ohms. Sounding excellent right out of the box with stock tubes. I'm off to Ebay to investigate "upgrade" tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

mr rick said:


> Bought a DV336se in the most recent Massdrop. Currently giving it it's first warm-up into my Beyer 800 / 600 ohms. Sounding excellent right out of the box with stock tubes. I'm off to Ebay to investigate "upgrade" tubes.


 

 Glad you like the DV336se right off the bat. Wait till you upgrade the tubes. Stock tubes are very digital sounding. 
  
 Even with a cheap RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GTB will improve sound sooooo much.
  
 For the ultimate, try Tung Sol 5998 with 7N7 + adapter. That is a killer.
  
 If you don't want to spend so much, then get an RCA 6AS7G or a Mullard 6080 as power tube. Get a Sylvania or Tung Sol 6SN7GT or GTB as your budget allows for.
  
 Enjoy !!! 
  
 3 months later, buy an Elise by Feliks Audio


----------



## Grumpy Finn

Hello, a new guy here.
  
 I was looking for an affordable headphone amp to use with my turntable so I figured Darkvoice with all the available tubes can't be a bad choice. I've been listening to a cheap Bravo Audio V2 that I got from a friend and was actually impressed with that one, so I can't wait to hear the difference with DV336SE.... Already ordered some tubes that I saw recommended by everybody.
  
 Turntable Rega RP3 with Rega Bias2 and Reloop RP7000 with Ortofon 2M, Pre Amp Rega MM, Sennheiser HD598 and ATH-M50X.... and stuff.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Finn,
  
 That's a nice turntable. Likewise good headphones but I prefer the HD650.
  
 The Darkvoice 336se will be very satisfying for you. It's one of head-fi's better buy. Many have just stayed with that amp for good and be happy with it.
  
 I was once on that journey and I still have the DV336se. However I have since gotten another tube amp call Elise by Feliks Audio. This uses the same tubes as the DV336se but with twice as many. Elise takes the sound quality so far ahead.
  
 However as I said, the DV336se is a very satisfying listen and could be all you ever need.
  
 Enjoy !
  
 ps I used to have the M50x as well. Nice solid bass.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

I do hope so  , seems like it can get pricey pretty quick.


----------



## UntilThen

grumpy finn said:


> I do hope so  , seems like it can get pricey pretty quick.


 

 Doesn't have to be 
  
 PM me for some cheap good tubes. I have too many. You only need one power and one driver tube for DV336se.


----------



## a44100Hz

How does this amp stack up these days? I see there's one on massdrop.


----------



## UntilThen

Very well with high impedance headphones like Senn HD600 / HD650, Beyer DT770, 880, 990. Even drives Beyer T1 and HD800 but obviously with these 2 you'll be spending more for a better tube amp.
  
 I still have my Darkvoice 336se and when I try my T1 with it, it sounded very good. Drives my HD650 and DT880 Pro with ease. Sounds very good. You need to change the stock chinese tubes. They sound lean.
  
 I've since bought Elise by Feliks Audio which is much better but cost more at $649.
  
@a44100Hz What headphones are you using?


----------



## a44100Hz

untilthen said:


> Very well with high impedance headphones like Senn HD600 / HD650, Beyer DT770, 880, 990. Even drives Beyer T1 and HD800 but obviously with these 2 you'll be spending more for a better tube amp.
> 
> I still have my Darkvoice 336se and when I try my T1 with it, it sounded very good. Drives my HD650 and DT880 Pro with ease. Sounds very good. You need to change the stock chinese tubes. They sound lean.
> 
> ...




Primarily HE-400i and TH-X00. I have a Vali 2 hybrid amp and an APPJ PA1502A tube amp and I'm curious where this would fall in comparison. So far I really like the tube sound that my friend describes as "very colored and musical."


----------



## UntilThen

a44100hz said:


> Primarily HE-400i and TH-X00. I have a Vali 2 hybrid amp and an APPJ PA1502A tube amp and I'm curious where this would fall in comparison. So far I really like the tube sound that my friend describes as "very colored and musical."


 

 I haven't heard the Vali 2 and APPJ PA1502A but Darkvoice 336se is your typical tube amp sound. Warm, lush and a gorgeous bass.
  
 However both your headphones are low impedance HPs... might not be suitable.
  
 Get a HD650.


----------



## Mr Rick

untilthen said:


> I haven't heard the Vali 2 and APPJ PA1502A but Darkvoice 336se is your typical tube amp sound. Warm, lush and a gorgeous bass.
> 
> However both your headphones are low impedance HPs... might not be suitable.
> 
> Get a HD650.


 
 I agree, as UntilThen has said, the OTL topology is really best suited to high Z cans. For your low Z headphones I would stick with hybrid amps like the Vali 2.


----------



## a44100Hz

untilthen said:


> I haven't heard the Vali 2 and APPJ PA1502A but Darkvoice 336se is your typical tube amp sound. Warm, lush and a gorgeous bass.
> 
> However both your headphones are low impedance HPs... might not be suitable.
> 
> Get a HD650.




You may laugh but I really can't stand the Senn house sound. That veil haunts me at night, and not in the good way.


----------



## UntilThen

a44100hz said:


> You may laugh but I really can't stand the Senn house sound. That veil haunts me at night, and not in the good way.


 

 Haha buy a DT880 then. Everyone feels differently with headphones. Depends on the rest of the gear as well.


----------



## kid vic

untilthen said:


> I haven't heard the Vali 2 and APPJ PA1502A but Darkvoice 336se is your typical tube amp sound. Warm, lush and a gorgeous bass.
> 
> However both your headphones are low impedance HPs... might not be suitable.
> 
> Get a HD650.


 
 Interesting, I keep hearing this being said but my Darkvoice 3322 plays very well with my reasonably low impedance K612 and K7XX while driving my K240 sextett and K340 with no neglible improvement. I feel as if darkvoice amps arent as picky as other OTL's.....


----------



## UntilThen

AKG K612 is 120 ohms 101 db ; AKG K7xx is 62 ohms 105db
  
 His headphones impedance are much lower... HE-400i is 35 ohms 93db ; Foster TH-X00 is 25 ohms 94db
  
 I say might not be suitable. It probably could just as the DV336se drove my HE-560 but not very well.  HE-560 is 35ohms ~92db.
  
 Now Elise(OTL amp) will drive the HE-560 with ease.


----------



## kid vic

untilthen said:


> AKG K612 is 120 ohms 101 db ; AKG K7xx is 62 ohms 105db
> 
> His headphones impedance are much lower... HE-400i is 35 ohms 93db ; Foster TH-X00 is 25 ohms 94db
> 
> ...


 
 The 3322 didn't drive my HE-500's well either but i didn't mind my TH600's through it (prefer it through my Beresford caiman though).


----------



## UntilThen

That's a nice headphone HE-500. I didn't get to try that as the HE-560 is very different sounding from it. I got used to the tone though and even went with T1 as well. 
  
 Elise with T1 or HE560 sounds lovely. Incidentally the seller who sold me the T1 was using it with 3322.
  
 I still love the DV336se though. Don't listen to it much now but I tried it the other day and was pleasantly surprised that it sound good with the T1.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

I'll soon find out how 336SE works with low impedance headphones, ath m50x @ 38 ohms and HD598 @ 50 ohms.... I'll let you know.


----------



## Mr Rick

grumpy finn said:


> I'll soon find out how 336SE works with low impedance headphones, ath m50x @ 38 ohms and HD598 @ 50 ohms.... I'll let you know.


 
 Here is some good information on the subject:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702109/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question


----------



## UntilThen

grumpy finn said:


> I'll soon find out how 336SE works with low impedance headphones, ath m50x @ 38 ohms and HD598 @ 50 ohms.... I'll let you know.


 

 I have the ATH-M50X but sold it prior to the arrival of the DV336se.
  
 I think those 2 headphones will play alright with the Darkvoice. It's not just impedance but need to consider sensitivity as well.
  
 These 2 have much higher sensitivity and the impedance are not at the very low sub 30 range. 
  
 ATH M50x is 38 ohms 99db
 HD598 is 50 ohms 112db
  
 However the proof is in the listening. So will await your findings. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 FYI, my Sennheiser Momentum at 18ohms and 113db plays ok with the DV336se but I never like listening to the Momentum. YMMV.


----------



## UntilThen

mr rick said:


> Here is some good information on the subject:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702109/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question


 

 Yes there is a lot to glean from there. I've read those postings some time ago. Other factors involved too, like transconductance and the design of the tube amp.
  
 My preference is still to stick with a higher impedance headphone for OTL amp.
  
 My DT880 Pro at 250ohms and HD650 at 300 ohms sounds amazing from the DV336se.


----------



## kid vic

untilthen said:


> That's a nice headphone HE-500. I didn't get to try that as the HE-560 is very different sounding from it. I got used to the tone though and even went with T1 as well.
> 
> Elise with T1 or HE560 sounds lovely. Incidentally the seller who sold me the T1 was using it with 3322.
> 
> I still love the DV336se though. Don't listen to it much now but I tried it the other day and was pleasantly surprised that it sound good with the T1.


 
 +1 when it comes to the HE-500 being nice aswell a the HE-560 being very different sounding. No idea how the DV336se sounds but if it continues the Darkvoice sound it should be great.
  


grumpy finn said:


> I'll soon find out how 336SE works with low impedance headphones, ath m50x @ 38 ohms and HD598 @ 50 ohms.... I'll let you know.


 
 Should work well for you but we will know soon enough!
  


untilthen said:


> I have the ATH-M50X but sold it prior to the arrival of the DV336se.
> 
> I think those 2 headphones will play alright with the Darkvoice. It's not just impedance but need to consider sensitivity as well.
> 
> ...


 
 Agreed on the sensitivity point, that alone has a very important effect on the pairings


----------



## yangian

Any one have oponion of 336SE vs Valhalla 2 for HD600? Thanks.


----------



## Sujay Rao

I got a DV 336SE, probably off the previous drop. Using a Beyer DT990. Biggest problem was very tinny and sibilant top end, thin mids. I burned it on continuous play overnight. Got better, but not much. Two more of the same and it sounds fine now. But 36 hours of burn in was a bit much I thought. What do you think? I play my music from a Macbook pro running Pure Music 3.
 Will take your advice on the rolling. And that crack about the Elise, man, cuts too close to the bone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I've promised myself NO MORE UPGRADES.


----------



## UntilThen

sujay rao said:


> I got a DV 336SE, probably off the previous drop. Using a Beyer DT990. Biggest problem was very tinny and sibilant top end, thin mids. I burned it on continuous play overnight. Got better, but not much. Two more of the same and it sounds fine now. But 36 hours of burn in was a bit much I thought. What do you think? I play my music from a Macbook pro running Pure Music 3.
> Will take your advice on the rolling. And that crack about the Elise, man, cuts too close to the bone
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You're probably using stock tubes. That's why the tinny sound. Those chinese stock tubes are garbage. Sorry for the harsh words but that's true. Buy yourself an inexpensive driver and power tubes and see the big improvements. Even the cheapest RCA 6AS7G and Sylvania 6SN7GTB will bring about big improvements.
  
 I won't tempt you anymore with Elise but the improvements over DV336se is so great there's no comparison. Just stay and be happy with DV - it is capable and enjoyable for a very low cost.


----------



## urbino

Interesting discussion.  I haven't had a problem driving any of my low impedance cans with the 336SE, including the 400i's.  Maybe it's the type of music.  I listen to primarily jazz/blues/vocal music.  But I do get into some pretty thick and heavy rock now and then.


----------



## UntilThen

That's good to know.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

Well, I received my DV336 SE finally, got to listen to some Kenny Burrel Jazz through my ATH M50's, happily surprised even with stock Chinese tubes after 10 hour burn-in. No problems with low impedance which was my biggest concern, i.e. no need to "upgrade" the cans yet.


----------



## UntilThen

Good to know  Change the tubes and tell me what you think.... and try the Senn
  
 I didn't expect problems with the DV driving your headphones.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

I have a few sets of different tubes ordered from Tube Depot, I just want to hear the difference between them and the Chinese. The once you sent me haven't arrived yet. The old Tube amp was so sensitive that you could only turn volume up very carefully before it got too loud.


----------



## yangian

grumpy finn said:


> Well, I received my DV336 SE finally, got to listen to some Kenny Burrel Jazz through my ATH M50's, happily surprised even with stock Chinese tubes after 10 hour burn-in. No problems with low impedance which was my biggest concern, i.e. no need to "upgrade" the cans yet.


 
 Does it has low gain/high gain adjustment? Someone else also said it can drive Philips X2 well.


----------



## Mr Rick

yangian said:


> Does it has low gain/high gain adjustment? Someone else also said it can drive Philips X2 well.


 
 It does not have a high/low switch, but it does drive my X2s quite well.


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> It does not have a high/low switch, but it does drive my X2s quite well.


 
 Hi, Rick, I saw you have both 336 and V2. How about these two when compared?
 Thank you!


----------



## Mr Rick

yangian said:


> Hi, Rick, I saw you have both 336 and V2. How about these two when compared?
> Thank you!


 
  
 Very little difference. Both sound great. I primarily use my Beyerdynamic 880/600 with both amps. Honestly, I bought the 336 on Massdrop because of the price, and it's looks. I mainly use the Valhalla 2 as a preamp to my speaker system.


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> Very little difference. Both sound great. I primarily use my Beyerdynamic 880/600 with both amps. Honestly, I bought the 336 on Massdrop because of the price, and it's looks. I mainly use the Valhalla 2 as a preamp to my speaker system.


 
 Thank you, Rick


----------



## Grumpy Finn

mr rick said:


> Very little difference. Both sound great. I primarily use my Beyerdynamic 880/600 with both amps. Honestly, I bought the 336 on Massdrop because of the price, and it's looks. I mainly use the Valhalla 2 as a preamp to my speaker system.


 

 That's what I was planning to buy (880/600) if I ran into any problems with low impedance, as I read somebody had done, life is good and I can wait for the 880/600 go on sale somewhere before buying them. Love M50X's with 336, haven't even tried the HD598's yet, I'm having so much fun.


----------



## Mr Rick

grumpy finn said:


> That's what I was planning to buy (880/600) if I ran into any problems with low impedance, as I read somebody had done, life is good and I can wait for the 880/600 go on sale somewhere before buying them. Love M50X's with 336, haven't even tried the HD598's yet, I'm having so much fun.


 
  
 I'm seriously considering adding the 990/600, currently on Massdrop, to my collection. They look great in "all black".


----------



## urbino

mr rick said:


> I'm seriously considering adding the 990/600, currently on Massdrop, to my collection. They look great in "all black".


 
  
 I got a pair.  They're much too bright on the Oppo, but mate _very_ nicely with the 336SE.


----------



## Mr Rick

urbino said:


> I got a pair.  They're much too bright on the Oppo, but mate _very_ nicely with the 336SE.


 
  
 I thought they would play nice with the 336. At my age I have very little aversion to bright headphones anyway. LOL


----------



## urbino

mr rick said:


> I thought they would play nice with the 336. At my age I have very little aversion to bright headphones anyway. LOL


 
  
 Heh, I'm at that age, too, but sibilants can still lacerate me, and they did with the Oppo > 990 combo.
  
 Via the 336, the bass is the attention-getter.  The treble still sizzles a bit more than ideal, but it isn't intrusive.  Maybe to younger ears it would be.


----------



## yangian

Anyone can tell me the "Power handling capacity: 1 W" of 336 means what? 1W for how much impedience? 32ohm or 300 ohm or whatever? ANd 1W per channel or 1W totally?
 Thanks!


----------



## Mr Rick

yangian said:


> Anyone can tell me the "Power handling capacity: 1 W" of 336 means what? 1W for how much impedience? 32ohm or 300 ohm or whatever? ANd 1W per channel or 1W totally?
> Thanks!


 
 I could be totally incorrect on this but here goes.
  
 As an OTL amp I would think the maximum power available would be at around 300 ohms. And the power is "probably" 1 watt per channel. (  I looked at the output specifications of the Schiit Valhalla 2 to make these assumptions. )
  
 As a 336 owner I will say that the 336 will drive my 600 ohm Beyerdynamic 880s to typical listening levels with the volume pot set to 10 o'clock. With LOTS of power to spare. It also drives low impedance / high efficiency headphones like the Philips X2s to typical listening levels at the 9 o'clock mark.
  
 As always YMMV.


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> I could be totally incorrect on this but here goes.
> 
> As an OTL amp I would think the maximum power available would be at around 300 ohms. And the power is "probably" 1 watt per channel. (  I looked at the output specifications of the Schiit Valhalla 2 to make these assumptions. )
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Rick! From your description, I would get the same conclusion as yours. That's great.


----------



## urbino

mr rick said:


> I could be totally incorrect on this but here goes.
> 
> As an OTL amp I would think the maximum power available would be at around 300 ohms. And the power is "probably" 1 watt per channel. (  I looked at the output specifications of the Schiit Valhalla 2 to make these assumptions. )
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just as confirmation, the same goes for my 600-ohm DT990's.  10-11 o'clock is plenty loud.


----------



## Sujay Rao

I disagree. I use an Objective DAC (off Massdrop). With the volume on both iTunes / Pure Music and on the MacBook set at about 90%, I get optimal volume at about 2 o'clock. I don't like it very loud, btw. Considering it's attached to a tube amp, the Beyer 990 (600 ohm) sounds definitely emaciated in the body than other less exalted cans such as the AKG K553 Pro or the Audiotechnica 50X. Another "neutral" can like the the Sounmagic HP150 is also rather anemic sounding off the DarkVoice, but less so than the 990. The DarkVoice is a neutral amp as tube amps go. I was inclined to blame the stock tubes (I'm waiting for replacements to roll-in). Maybe they are accessories in the crime. But not the sole culprits. When I use a naturally full bodied headphone like the V-Moda, the sound is meatier, but expectedly, the low end really bloats. I think the extreme neutrality of the Beyer 990 means that it has to be carefully paired with an amp that produces warmer sound. Or, the DV has to be paired with a warmer set of headphones. For example, resolution and sound stage notwithstanding, the 990 sounds so much fuller and meatier off the utterly humble Little Bear portable rechargeable-battery tube amp! 

I think that a forum such as this would do well if some of the pundits put their noggins together and created some kind of rough compatibility charts involving popular or talked-about products that would help prospective adventurers into audiophile territories match their components better. Don't forget, for many lovers of good audio, one or two expensive items is all the goodies that they may purchase in a lifetime.


----------



## yangian

sujay rao said:


> I disagree. I use an Objective DAC (off Massdrop). With the volume on both iTunes / Pure Music and on the MacBook set at about 90%, I get optimal volume at about 2 o'clock. I don't like it very loud, btw. Considering it's attached to a tube amp, the Beyer 990 (600 ohm) sounds definitely emaciated in the body than other less exalted cans such as the AKG K553 Pro or the Audiotechnica 50X. Another "neutral" can like the the Sounmagic HP150 is also rather anemic sounding off the DarkVoice, but less so than the 990. The DarkVoice is a neutral amp as tube amps go. I was inclined to blame the stock tubes (I'm waiting for replacements to roll-in). Maybe they are accessories in the crime. But not the sole culprits. When I use a naturally full bodied headphone like the V-Moda, the sound is meatier, but expectedly, the low end really bloats. I think the extreme neutrality of the Beyer 990 means that it has to be carefully paired with an amp that produces warmer sound. Or, the DV has to be paired with a warmer set of headphones. For example, resolution and sound stage notwithstanding, the 990 sounds so much fuller and meatier off the utterly humble Little Bear portable rechargeable-battery tube amp!
> 
> I think that a forum such as this would do well if some of the pundits put their noggins together and created some kind of rough compatibility charts involving popular or talked-about products that would help prospective adventurers into audiophile territories match their components better. Don't forget, for many lovers of good audio, one or two expensive items is all the goodies that they may purchase in a lifetime.


 
 I think they are right. Since on Taobao: http://tw.taobao.com/item/45718397053.htm
 (If you could read Chinese), you can see it wrote: Output power: >2W.
 I have a OTL similar to 336, I do set to about 10am to drive my HD600. My OTL amplifier has 2W for 150 ohm (though I'm not sure it's 2W per channel or totally. But 2W per chanel seems too luxury for a headphone amplifiers). Mine has similar design as 336: use a 6N5P and two 6N3Ps. So I think they might have similar power. I use Music Bee through Director to the amplifier. But I set Music Bee to maxium volume, which you should try your itune to see how much you should lower the sound of 336.


----------



## urbino

sujay rao said:


> I disagree. I use an Objective DAC (off Massdrop). With the volume on both iTunes / Pure Music and on the MacBook set at about 90%, I get optimal volume at about 2 o'clock. I don't like it very loud, btw. Considering it's attached to a tube amp, the Beyer 990 (600 ohm) sounds definitely emaciated in the body than other less exalted cans such as the AKG K553 Pro or the Audiotechnica 50X. Another "neutral" can like the the Sounmagic HP150 is also rather anemic sounding off the DarkVoice, but less so than the 990. The DarkVoice is a neutral amp as tube amps go. I was inclined to blame the stock tubes (I'm waiting for replacements to roll-in). Maybe they are accessories in the crime. But not the sole culprits. When I use a naturally full bodied headphone like the V-Moda, the sound is meatier, but expectedly, the low end really bloats. I think the extreme neutrality of the Beyer 990 means that it has to be carefully paired with an amp that produces warmer sound. Or, the DV has to be paired with a warmer set of headphones. For example, resolution and sound stage notwithstanding, the 990 sounds so much fuller and meatier off the utterly humble Little Bear portable rechargeable-battery tube amp!
> 
> I think that a forum such as this would do well if some of the pundits put their noggins together and created some kind of rough compatibility charts involving popular or talked-about products that would help prospective adventurers into audiophile territories match their components better. Don't forget, for many lovers of good audio, one or two expensive items is all the goodies that they may purchase in a lifetime.


 
  
 We have had very different experiences of both the 336SE and the 990s, which I don't find extremely neutral at all.  They have a decided hump in the bass and a strong peak in the treble (which freq graphs say is around 10k).  I do agree that the latter means they pair best with a warmer or even rolled off amp.  Mine are unbearably sibilant from my HA-1, but they sound great from the DV, which is noticeably warmer with all my cans.  (I've never seen a freq graph for the 336SE, so I have no idea if what my ears are telling me is born out by the numbers.)
  
 Everybody's ears are different, of course, but I halfway think your DV may not be functioning correctly.  Either that or I got a _really_ atypical sample.


----------



## Mr Rick

urbino said:


> We have had very different experiences of both the 336SE and the 990s, which I don't find extremely neutral at all.  They have a decided hump in the bass and a strong peak in the treble (which freq graphs say is around 10k).  I do agree that the latter means they pair best with a warmer or even rolled off amp.  Mine are unbearably sibilant from my HA-1, but they sound great from the DV, which is noticeably warmer with all my cans.  (I've never seen a freq graph for the 336SE, so I have no idea if what my ears are telling me is born out by the numbers.)
> 
> Everybody's ears are different, of course, but I halfway think your DV may not be functioning correctly.  Either that or I got a _really_ atypical sample.


 
  
 I think his problem is a low input to his DV. I can't listen to* any *of my headphones on the DV at the 2 o'clock setting. Much too loud!!


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> I think his problem is a low input to his DV. I can't listen to* any *of my headphones on the DV at the 2 o'clock setting. Much too loud!!


 
 Yes. That's what I think. I suggested to set the volume of itune to maxium to see the change of DV.


----------



## urbino

mr rick said:


> I think his problem is a low input to his DV. I can't listen to* any *of my headphones on the DV at the 2 o'clock setting. Much too loud!!


 
  
 That would definitely do it.


----------



## yangian

urbino said:


> That would definitely do it.


 
 Hi, I noticed you have 9500. Many said DV can drive X2 very well. And I do wonder how about it drive 9500? My OTL amp. cannot drive 9500 and X2 well.


----------



## urbino

yangian said:


> Hi, I noticed you have 9500. Many said DV can drive X2 very well. And I do wonder how about it drive 9500? My OTL amp. cannot drive 9500 and X2 well.


 
  
 I don't listen to my 9500's a lot.  My recollection is that the DV drives them just fine, but I'll break them out and confirm.  Tell me what kind of music you listen to most, and I'll try to match.


----------



## yangian

urbino said:


> I don't listen to my 9500's a lot.  My recollection is that the DV drives them just fine, but I'll break them out and confirm.  Tell me what kind of music you listen to most, and I'll try to match.


 
 I mainly listen to symphony/orcheatra. You could compare with your SS amp. 9500 work well with my desktop SS amp. Thanks!


----------



## urbino

yangian said:


> I mainly listen to symphony/orcheatra. You could compare with your SS amp. 9500 work well with my desktop SS amp. Thanks!


 
  
 I have to feed my DV from my AK240 right now, which, while a fantastic source, has only half a dozen classical tracks on it.
  
 Based on that limited sample size, I'd say it has zero trouble driving the 9500's.  At no point did I turn it up past 11 o'clock, and had to turn it down from there as that Tchaikovsky cat dropped the hammer on some fortissimo.  Somewhere just north of 9 o'clock was my happy place.


----------



## yangian

urbino said:


> I have to feed my DV from my AK240 right now, which, while a fantastic source, has only half a dozen classical tracks on it.
> 
> Based on that limited sample size, I'd say it has zero trouble driving the 9500's.  At no point did I turn it up past 11 o'clock, and had to turn it down from there as that Tchaikovsky cat dropped the hammer on some fortissimo.  Somewhere just north of 9 o'clock was my happy place.


 
 Oh, Urbino,
 I don't mean the volume. I mean if it can make 9500 sound as good as from a S amp. Usually a low inpedience headphones cannot pair OTL well. The SQ from an OTL is bad. For my OTL amp., I need to tune higher of the knob than 600 but sound raise no much. Anyway, you know that's sth. wrong from that pairing. So I'm just curious people claim DV can drive X2 well.


----------



## urbino

yangian said:


> Oh, Urbino,
> I don't mean the volume. I mean if it can make 9500 sound as good as from a S amp. Usually a low inpedience headphones cannot pair OTL well. The SQ from an OTL is bad. For my OTL amp., I need to tune higher of the knob than 600 but sound raise no much. Anyway, you know that's sth. wrong from that pairing. So I'm just curious people claim DV can drive X2 well.


 
  
 Oh, gotcha.
  
 I might not be the best person to ask that, as I've never found that to be the case with the DV and my low-impedance cans, the 9500's included.  I haven't tried it with _all _of them, but it drives my 400i's just fine.  The Q701's are definitely bass-light, but they're bass-light no matter what's driving them.  That's just their sound.
  
 The bass just now from the 9500's was fine to me.  I'm not a bass-head; I prefer my bass fast and musical.  But I noticed nothing missing in the lower octaves, which is where OTL's reportedly run out of gas when driving low-impedance cans.
  
 I'll scan through the same tracks from my HA-1 just to verify.


----------



## yangian

urbino said:


> Oh, gotcha.
> 
> I might not be the best person to ask that, as I've never found that to be the case with the DV and my low-impedance cans, the 9500's included.  I haven't tried it with _all _of them, but it drives my 400i's just fine.  The Q701's are definitely bass-light, but they're bass-light no matter what's driving them.  That's just their sound.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you, Urbino. I'm just curious. I never use OTL to drive 9500. But I do like the sound of tube amp. much than SS amp. Well, I know some tube amps. sound like SSs and SSs sound like tubes. Just curious about DV if it could drive low impedience well.


----------



## urbino

yangian said:


> Thank you, Urbino. I'm just curious. I never use OTL to drive 9500. But I do like the sound of tube amp. much than SS amp. Well, I know some tube amps. sound like SSs and SSs sound like tubes. Just curious about DV if it could drive low impedience well.


 
  
 Okay, upon further review, there is more oomph in the bass from the HA-1.  However, I have no complaint about what I heard from the DV and had I not done the direct comparison, I wouldn't have missed the extra bass.
  
 That's based on my own sound preferences, obviously, so YMMV.


----------



## yangian

urbino said:


> Okay, upon further review, there is more oomph in the bass from the HA-1.  However, I have no complaint about what I heard from the DV and had I not done the direct comparison, I wouldn't have missed the extra bass.
> 
> That's based on my own sound preferences, obviously, so YMMV.


 
 Do you think the sound from DV sounds dark and lifeless? IF not, that would be great. DV is really able to drive low impedience phones. Interesting! Thanks!


----------



## urbino

yangian said:


> Do you think the sound from DV sounds dark and lifeless?


 
  
 Nope.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

Who had the great wisdom to put that blue led, bright as a beacon, on an otherwise great little amp?


----------



## Renderman

You certainly are grumpy, just put in some black laquer or cut the leads


----------



## Mr Rick

untilthen said:


> You're probably using stock tubes. That's why the tinny sound. Those chinese stock tubes are garbage. Sorry for the harsh words but that's true. Buy yourself an inexpensive driver and power tubes and see the big improvements. Even the cheapest RCA 6AS7G and Sylvania 6SN7GTB will bring about big improvements.
> 
> I won't tempt you anymore with Elise but the improvements over DV336se is so great there's no comparison. Just stay and be happy with DV - it is capable and enjoyable for a very low cost.


 
  
 Received an RCA JAN 6AS7G today and made the substitution immediately. I really can't hear any difference, but at least I now have a spare, as I left the RCA in and put the original "on ice".
  
 A NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTB should be here soon as well. So, at least I'll have a full set of spares. LOL


----------



## yangian

Anyone can let me know how long/how many hours a 6080 tube can be used? Thanks


----------



## Mr Rick

yangian said:


> Anyone can let me know how long/how many hours a 6080 tube can be used? Thanks


 
  
 I found estimates on line of 10,000 to 100,000 hours. In short..........a long time.


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> I found estimates on line of 10,000 to 100,000 hours. In short..........a long time.


 
 Oh, really! That lasts almost a whole life time!
 So do you guys turn the amplifer off if you leave around an hour?


----------



## Mr Rick

yangian said:


> Oh, really! That lasts almost a whole life time!
> So do you guys turn the amplifer off if you leave around an hour?


 
 I have tube radios built in the 1940s that still have original tubes.
  
 For safety sake I always turn off my tube gear if I leave it unattended.


----------



## yangian

mr rick said:


> I have tube radios built in the 1940s that still have original tubes.
> 
> For safety sake I always turn off my tube gear if I leave it unattended.


 
 That's cool! Thank you!


----------



## MajorRocker

Just purchased a Darkvoice 336se and I got the 6922 to 6SN7 adapter and I see they sell a 12au7 adapter my question is will it work with the darkvoice? I don't see it on the first page.


----------



## godlikegamer

Newbies here, can this amp used as preamp?? Planned to buy 1..


----------



## urbino

godlikegamer said:


> Newbies here, can this amp used as preamp?? Planned to buy 1..


 
  
 Yes, provided you only need 1 input.


----------



## MajorRocker

majorrocker said:


> Just purchased a Darkvoice 336se and I got the 6922 to 6SN7 adapter and I see they sell a 12au7 adapter my question is will it work with the darkvoice? I don't see it on the first page.


 

 Just an update I contacted the seller of the adapter and asked if it would work with the 336se and they replied back saying yes it will work.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

majorrocker said:


> Just an update I contacted the seller of the adapter and asked if it would work with the 336se and they replied back saying yes it will work.


 

 let me know how it sounds.


----------



## Edoardo93

Hi, I've a BIG question for you: a friend of mine is persuading me to buy a Yaquin tube amplifier instead of a Darkvoice 336SE because of the less distortion of the first. The Yaquin has 0.03% and the DV336 has 2%. Does anyone can help me in finding the best product for this prince range? Thanks


----------



## Grumpy Finn

edoardo93 said:


> Hi, I've a BIG question for you: a friend of mine is persuading me to buy a Yaquin tube amplifier instead of a Darkvoice 336SE because of the less distortion of the first. The Yaquin has 0.03% and the DV336 has 2%. Does anyone can help me in finding the best product for this prince range? Thanks


 

 Which model Yaqin, I really can't help but the next guy is going to ask the model anyway  http://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/yaqin-tube-amp-audio-c-14


----------



## JohnBal

edoardo93 said:


> Hi, I've a BIG question for you: a friend of mine is persuading me to buy a Yaquin tube amplifier instead of a Darkvoice 336SE because of the less distortion of the first. The Yaquin has 0.03% and the DV336 has 2%. Does anyone can help me in finding the best product for this prince range? Thanks


 
 Specs alone will not tell you how a product will sound. Especially with an OTL amp like the Darkvoice, there is a complex interaction between the amp and the headphones the amp is driving. Generally, the impedance of your headphones should be on the high side. Low impedance phones usually are not driven as well by this amp. It will also depend on the quality of the tubes used as well. The stock tubes are generally not very well regarded. But if the stars align, this amp can sound very nice indeed, specs be damned.


----------



## Darien

hello dark people, i been looking to get a tube amp for a  while now! at first was looking at vali 2, but i want the warm gooey liquid honey screw treble close your eyes and go back to the 60s and keep obama in office forever sound, and i hear the vali 2 is more "neutral' and you cant really get that "old school tube sound" with it.
  
 so if i went double the price and got a dark voice 336 se, would that give me what im looking for with hd650 sennheisers? are the stock tubes good enough? is this darkvoice designed to be your typical neutral-sounds just like an o2 but looks cooler- type of tube amp? or is it a tube amp that actually sounds like a tube amp?


----------



## MtnMan307

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "warm gooey liquid..." sound, and I've never heard a vintage tube amp, but I really LIKE the Vali 2.  This is my first experience with a tube amp and so far, "tube sound" means very good sound.  The Vali 2 is a detailed, dynamic, and very clear sounding amp, yet the music sounds more real to me.  I can hear singers' breath, the vibrations of cymbals after the initial hit, nasty intense guitar riffs, it all sounds a bit more true to real life.  
  
 I've read post after post after post by you and I too had no clue what a tube amp sounded like before buying the Vali 2. It is indeed my first headphone amp as well, but so far I would _definitely _buy another Schiit product.  I'm sure the Dark Voice is a good product too, lots of good stuff out there, I'm just commenting on what I have listened to.  
  
 I think the Vali 2 and AKG K7XX are a hell of a combination.  You talk about hating "treble and details" but details are about being able to hear everything in the recording, not just high treble stuff.  Everything from the lowest notes of a bass guitar to background vocals to..all of it.  IMHO both the Vali 2 and K7XX are very fine products, not just for the money, but a variation on a very famous headphone design and a fine American made tube hybrid headphone amplifier.  I doubt you will be disappointed with either one!


----------



## UntilThen

darien said:


> hello dark people, i been looking to get a tube amp for a  while now! at first was looking at vali 2, but i want the warm gooey liquid honey screw treble close your eyes and go back to the 60s and keep obama in office forever sound, and i hear the vali 2 is more "neutral' and you cant really get that "old school tube sound" with it.
> 
> so if i went double the price and got a dark voice 336 se, would that give me what im looking for with hd650 sennheisers? are the stock tubes good enough? is this darkvoice designed to be your typical neutral-sounds just like an o2 but looks cooler- type of tube amp? or is it a tube amp that actually sounds like a tube amp?


 

 Oh yeah... DV336se will pair very well with HD650 and sound warm and lush. Stock tubes are lack lustre and you should replace them. 
  
 Give them some love and shod them with Sylvania 6SN7GTB chrome top and Tung Sol 5998, and you'll be rewarded with a lovely tube amp sound. Even replacing the 5998 with a 6AS7G will give a very rewarding sound.


----------



## Sujay Rao

I have been involved with audio since I was a kid. I had one of those magic uncles you only see in childrens' movies! But I am just getting used to tube amps, mostly because of access issues from India.

 I have a Dark Voice 336SE. The original tubes were good, but I felt it could be better. I took advice from some seriously knowledgeable people on this forum and rolled the tubes. I couldn't afford the very pricey stuff. I changed the 6AS7 (bigger one in the back) with RCA, and  6SN7 (smaller one in the front) with Electro-Harmonic. Many Russian and East European tubes are being bought over and re-branded. It doesn't matter. As someone on this forum said, almost anything is better than the stock ones.
  
 I am very glad I did change them, The sound is now full and lush (up from shrill and thin) with an improved sense of space and clarity. 
  
 Be advised that the characteristics of your headphones will dramatically alter your experience. A can like V-Moda is naturally meatier and bassier than many "neutral" ones. The DV can sound unbearably boomy and bloated with this can. It is best used with a really precise solid state rig.
  
 Beyerdtyamic DT990 needed getting used to. It is very, very neutral and uncoloured. Playing off the DV, I thought it sounded thin. Rolling the tubes made a big difference. Even so, it is so much leaner than other less neutral, closed headphones.  Once you've got past this initial impression, you will begin to appreciate both the DV and the DT990 for the amazing level of detail and trueness you can hear. It adds next to nothing extra to the sound.
  
 Cans like Audiotechnica M50X and AKG K550Pro, both very much main stream items, will probably give you the experience you're looking for. These cans are not considered strictly _audiophile _by the permanent residents of audio heaven, but they are immensely popular and very well received by critics and reviewers alike. They produce a less than completely neutral sound, but the colouring is nowhere as pronounced as it is with the V-Modas or other Richter scale 8 headphones. The mids have great presence, the highs are crisp without hissing at you. The bass will make you nod with the beat, and the top of your head can stay there. Overall, the sound is "warm" as you would expect from a tube amp, with enough detail to keep you happy. 
  
 PS: if you can, do invest in a decent power conditioner. It will iron out the wrinkles present in the domestic electric supply to the DV, protecting it, and improving sound quality a great deal.
  
 Enjoy.


----------



## Tyranids

The newest Massdrop for the 336SE just ended, and I'm excited to pair it with my T90s in a couple of weeks. So far reading through this thread, I've gathered that the stock tubes are not well regarded. I'm not sure which tunes should replace them though. GE 6SN7GT seems to be a popular choice throughout the thread, but I haven't been able to find them online and don't exactly know what I'd be looking for anyways.

Are there any other recommendations for tubes? Or, at least where to purchase tubes for these kinds of things?


----------



## UntilThen

eBay is the easiest. Without spending too much, you can try these or similar. There are other choices. Good ones are more expensive. I've listed these ones as they are cheaper but should sound better than stock tubes for sure. Good luck.
  
*Back tube - power tube - that's the big one. Cheapest are RCA brand*
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6AS7g-RCA-ST-Tube-Tested-on-TV-7/371606097462?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36499%26meid%3D069169e0c25a434fa200a673556ae4dd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201558515984&rt=nc
  
 or 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-Electronic-Tube-NOS/201558515984?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36499%26meid%3De88de28469f84d04acdbfc3cdfb78ea3%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D371606097462&rt=nc
  
*Front tube - driver tube - that's the small one in front. *
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-CBS-Hytron-USA-JAN-CHY-6SN7GT-Black-3-Rivet-Bad-Boy-Plate-TALL-Vacuum-Tube-/121942621821?hash=item1c6458be7d:g:wjoAAOSwGYVW~qb2
  
 or
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-NOS-Sylvania-6SN7GT-2-Hole-Bad-Boy-RARE-FOIL-Getter-Tests-NEW-Balanced-/231920095680?hash=item35ff83d1c0:g:N0gAAOSwiYFXGCMk
  
 or
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-GE-6SN7GTB-STRONG-MATCHED-1957-6SN7GTA-6SN7-6SN7GT-VT231-TUBES-481-482-/252360048786?hash=item3ac1d4c092:g:jAwAAOSwV-RXFQTq


----------



## FaezFarhan

How good does it pair with the AKG K7XX / Fostex TH-X00? Anyone tried them before with these headphones? Tempted to join the drop at Massdrop.


----------



## Sujay Rao

I've been using the K7XX with the Dark Voice for some time now. Dark Voice is a remarkably true performer. What I mean is that, while it has unmistakable tube timbre, it is not overly warm or coloured. The K7XX too is a fairly neutral headphone. The pairing of the two produces top class sound. Fantastic soundstage with clean, detailed mids. Healthy but not boomy bass, and crisp treble without sibilance. You will have one of the best tube amp-headphone combos in this price range. 
I received the K7XX with velour earpads (as I did the Beyer DT990). While extremely comfortable and breathable, they are really bad for isolation. Sound leaks out through and under the pads making the lows really weak and the audio generally thin and watery. I would strongly recommend that you order non-velour pads (leatherette with memory foam, eg). The improvement in the listening experience has to be heard to be believed. 
Overall, extremely rewarding combo. 
Enjoy!


----------



## Darien

so if i got these 2 tubes would i get a nice warm sound? ( I hate treble and just want the most warm/lush/gooey/tubey sound)
  
*NOS Raytheon USA 6SN7GT Black T-Aligned-3 Rivet Bad Boy Plate Vacuum Tube*
  
*6AS7g RCA ST Tube*
  
*also what do the numbers mean like "tested 36/50" ? :S*


----------



## Darien

_ think im gonna get these from tube store, how are these 2 for the the dv, will they give me the nice sound i want?_
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Electro-Harmonix-6SN7EH
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6AS7-Tube-Types/Winged-C-6H13C-6AS7G


----------



## Darien

i kinda cant spend this much money right now, are the stock tubes really that terrible? will it still give me the nice warm honey twangy sound?


----------



## JazzVinyl

darien said:


> i kinda cant spend this much money right now, are the stock tubes really that terrible? will it still give me the nice warm honey twangy sound?




"Hate treble" are strong words. Better EQ the input signal, 'eh?

I would buy a better driver tube to start...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-Vacuum-Tube-Baldwin-TV-7-Tested-Great-At-104-106-/281429254732

The Baldwin is usually a rebranded Raytheon, which will sound better than the stock tube.





.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Anyone tried a Tung Sol 6SN7 black glass round plate in their DV 336 SE?


----------



## JazzVinyl

My Massdrop DV 336 SE arrived yesterday

Ignored the stock tubes, and put in a 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle and a Tung Sol 5998.

Have to say, I am extremely pleased. It is heavier and better built than expected and sounds great with the above tube combo.

This has to be one tremendous audio bargain for those who already own nice 6SN7's and 6AS7 (and equivalent) tubes. 

I am so glad I went for this deal....


----------



## JazzVinyl

Bought a re-badged Tung Sol 12SN7 BGRP - but alas, it does not light up, nor make a sound, so I still have not heard one of these legendary tubes.

In the meantime, I am using 2x 6BX7's as powers (via an adapter) and a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base) and I am really enjoying this combination in the DV 336 SE. Current draw is a mere 0.5 amps higher than the default tube compliment, so I think all is well.

Sound is top notch.


5998 as power and a 6N7G as driver is also really wonderful sounding in this amp! Works better than you'd expect, from the low cost of entry.

Cheers!




.


----------



## biggbenn74

I've been looking through the thread here and I just have one question:
  
 Which tubes will give me best clarity and soundstage? I can't find that definitive answer for the 336SE
  
 Open to all opinions, thanks.


----------



## JazzVinyl

biggbenn74 said:


> I've been looking through the thread here and I just have one question:
> 
> Which tubes will give me best clarity and soundstage? I can't find that definitive answer for the 336SE
> 
> Open to all opinions, thanks.




Hello BB...

I have good luck with a Tung Sol 5998 as the power tube.

And I like a 6N7G (via adapter) as driver.

Also like Sylvania 6N7W and another Sylvania 6N7WGTA and another 1950's Sylvania as driver, Tung Sol and Raytheon 6SN7's etc...

In fact the amp loves the classic 6SN7's as drivers. 

You can also use an ECC31 as driver via the same adapter used for 6N7G.

Here is a guide to 6SN7's (the listening impressions are valid for 336SE in my opinion):

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

Bass note on DV336 is superb the rest of the audio spectrum is also very good. If you spend for a tube amp, then you get a better, more precise, sound stage,


----------



## biggbenn74

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello BB...
> 
> I have good luck with a Tung Sol 5998 as the power tube.
> 
> ...


 

 Ok, I have read and I guess I'm just a little overwhelmed and confused by it all. I'm brand new to tubes. 22 years of age here.


----------



## JazzVinyl

biggbenn74 said:


> Ok, I have read and I guess I'm just a little overwhelmed and confused by it all. I'm brand new to tubes. 22 years of age here.




Gotcha...I assume you also have a meager tube budget? 

If so, I would suggest an RCA 6AS7G as a power should be able to find one inexpensively. And look for a rebranded 6SN7 to purchase inexpensively. A "Baldwin 6SN7" is usually made by a better known company like Sylvania or Raytheon.

That way, you can get some good sounding tubes for low cost.

Cheers...


----------



## biggbenn74

jazzvinyl said:


> Gotcha...I assume you also have a meager tube budget?
> 
> If so, I would suggest an RCA 6AS7G as a power should be able to find one inexpensively. And look for a rebranded 6SN7 to purchase inexpensively. A "Baldwin 6SN7" is usually made by a better known company like Sylvania or Raytheon.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you so much. I'll try these out and hopefully open my eyes (or ears, rather) to the sounds of tube amplification.


----------



## biggbenn74

No regrets and no turning back now! Placed them on order and it looks like I'll still have to wait another 3 weeks on the Darkvoice itself to get here!


----------



## JazzVinyl

biggbenn74 said:


> No regrets and no turning back now! Placed them on order and it looks like I'll still have to wait another 3 weeks on the Darkvoice itself to get here![/quote]
> 
> 
> Looking good, BB!!
> ...


----------



## JazzVinyl

Sylvania 7N7 (tall bottle) and Tung Sol 5998 behind, an excellent sounding tube combo in this amp 

The bass, the *Bass*!!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Another happy couple...

Sylvania 6SN7GTA and Chatham 6AS7

Bass is big, solid and powerful. Details, air and space continue, to improve.

.


----------



## LeQwasd

DV 336SE user here. I bought Thomson 6080wa - and I have a question - where are you suppose to use this? To replace the little one, or the large one? I tried in the front one, leaving the back one stock. It sounds nice, really wam, but it cannot achieve my desired volume. I can max out my DV and the volume is like what I would use normally. I tried to use it in the back, leaving the front one stock, and the sound is siblant af. Sounds awful.


----------



## Grumpy Finn

What are you using for a source? And it is for the front.


----------



## LeQwasd

Modi 2, and I am listening with DT990 premium 600ohm


----------



## LeQwasd

Do not pair DV with x00. Those are low impedance headphones, and this amp just destroys all the qualities of it. I plugged mine in for like 1 minute to understand it. At medium volume, headphones were like peaking and rattling, while on magni 2 I can crank them so loud, that I can hear them through 2 closed doors, and not doing stuff like this. That was with stock tubes, maybe other tubes can do things differently. One guy suggested me a resistive cable attachment. Since it was like 50$, I didn't bother looking into it more. But the sound on my dt990 600 ohm, is much much better on DV than on magni 2.


----------



## rudra

jazzvinyl said:


> Anyone tried a Tung Sol 6SN7 black glass round plate in their DV 336 SE?




I have tried a tungsol VT 231 BGRP. 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


----------



## himynameiskiera

The 6080 goes in the back as a power tube.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Couldn't resist a Darkvoice 336SE and the following tubes for a combo deal:
  
 Drivers: 

 Sylvania 6SN7GT
 Raytheon (Japanese calibration with Hitachi) 6SN7GTB tall bottle
 Raytheon 6SN7GTB short bottle
 Raytheon 6SN7GTA Short bottle
 CBS 6SN7GTB short bottle
 RCA 6SN7GTB silver print
 RCA 6SN7GTB orange print
 Channel Master (Hitachi?) 6SN7GTB tall bottle
 Sylvania made 6SN7GTB
  
 Output tubes:

 Nanjing 6AS7G (the light show special, very low hours)
 Russian 6AS7G - both tubes are huge
 CBS 6AS7GA - extra tall triple mica
 Sylvania 6080WB
 Raytheon 6080WA
 RCA 6080WA
 RCA 6AS7G grey plate (2)
 Sylvania 6AS7G black plate 
  
 Anyone have any suggestions of where to start with tube rolling?  What combos might be the best?  The number of options has me just about overwhelmed.

 Also, my headphone collection is:
  
 HiFiMan HE-400s (22 Ohm)
 Symphones v7's (? Ohm)
 Grado 125i (with wooden cups) (32 Ohm)
 V-Moda XS (28.5 Ohm)
 Meze 99 Classics (32 Ohm)
  
 All are low impedance cans, which are not the first choice for this amp (but as they say, I got what I got).  Suggestions on what tubes may be best or what headphones might play the nicest?  My understanding is that use with low impedance headphones may decrease the bass (increased rolloff) and may cause more audible hum.  I have ordered 220 uF Nichicon capacitors to do the Fitz mod if needed.  Will the Fitz mod also improve the bass rolloff or just reduce hum?
  
 Really looking forward to trying it out (my experience so far is with a hybrid tube/o2 amp).  Just trying to read through all the posts to figure out where to start.


----------



## himynameiskiera

With low impedance, swap out the output caps. I replaced them today with new mundorf 100uf e series to reduce the bass cut off. Even for my hd 650 and hd 600, the bass is far deeper and is generally more defined. The chinese stock caps are terrible quality. 
 next thing to be installed are some clarity cap bypasses and then a new volume pot.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Ok... so there's hope?!?  

 Can you elaborate?  How many are required?  How did you decide on 100uF?  Down to what impedance headphones will this support/improve.  
  
 Are there drawbacks from doing this mod?

 I'm excited about this if it is as easy as swapping in some new caps!


----------



## himynameiskiera

I'm using a single 100uf for each channel but the absolute ideal for something say, 32 ohms would be a 220uf cap or even something higher. I chose 100 uf simple because I am using my hd 650 and hd 600 as primary cans and I wanted to keep the bass sounding more like it did at 30uf but with the added quality of the mundorfs. My grados also sound better than they did at 30uf per channel.
  
 I've noticed no drawbacks at the moment other than inconvenience as my pcb was a little too short. I think the amp is slightly more neutral now so if you like a very warm sound then this may change it. The clarity cap bypasses will be added tomorrow and should change the sound some more.


----------



## TravAndAlex

What are you using for the clarity cap bypass?


----------



## himynameiskiera

1uf. I didn't choose this value, rather it was recommended over on the polk audio forum. I'll report back on how they sound.
 I don't think the bypass is vital as I'm listening with just the two mundorfs installed and it sounds far better than at stock.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Looking at a Canadian parts place.  This sound right:  

 MUNDORF-71881 QTYADD *220µF / 23VAC-63VDC,** MLytic® Bi-Polar** **AC **(ECAP63-Raw)*, 16mmD x 39mmH


 Available in 220, 270, 330, 370, 400...  400 is on serious sale right now.  Would that be too high?


----------



## himynameiskiera

I don't know for sure but when I looked at other people doing the mod, they choose the 100vdc caps. I don't honestly know if it will make too much of a difference. But the uf rating of 220 should be absolutely perfect. I've seen people use two 100uf per channel so the 220uf will be ideal. Also, some revisions of the PCB are shorter and so when I installed mine I had to use a funny angle to solder.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Dang... I didn't notice that the 220's I was looking at were rated 63V DC.  Do you know what the original output capacitors are rated for voltage (is it marked on them by any chance)?  I wonder what the lowest rated voltage I can use is.  I've read the threads here and all over... no one states the original voltage that I could find.
  
 Can you post a link to the actual capacitors that you used?  I can't seem to find anything larger than the 100uF caps with the 100VDC rating.


 Thanks for your help!


----------



## himynameiskiera

The original caps say 250v on them so the voltage shouldn't make too much of a difference. 
  
 http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/ecap100110-100uf-100vdc-mundorf-ecap-electrolytic-p-4007.html
  
 These are the ones I used. I think you could actually just solder two of the 100uf per channel if it came to it.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Cool.  Thanks.  I think I'll see if I can squeeze 3 per channel in there with a Mundorf F Cap 1uF / 450V, Mcap EVO Oil as a bypass cap.  That should help out my low z cans.

 HA!  I thought I had read every post in every chain on this amp... but I just found this gem which includes required voltages for the caps:
  
 "The fitz mod seems to be a cap acting as a blocker but there is no vdc B+ in the front end, only till it runs back to the output stage with the 2 pairs of 3 10uf film caps on each channel of the pcb board, 70-75vdc for them, power filter caps are about 120vdc to 190vdc.
  
  Any cap over 16v is fine as there is only about 6-7vac going through the wiring that the caps are soldered to."
  
  

  SUMMARY FOR ANYONE WHO HAS GOT THIS FAR:
  
 For the original Fitz mod (reduce or eliminate tube hum), two 220uF capacitors rated 16v+ is required.  I will be using:  Nichicon-Elec_Caps-Series FG 220uf / 25v D(10 mm) x H(16 mm)

 To change the output capacitors to support low impedance headphones, 100v+ non polarized (bipolar) capacitors are required rated between 200-400 uF for each channel.  I will be using:  Mundorf E Cap 100uf / 35VAC-100VDC, MLytic Bi-Polar AC (ECAP100-Raw), 18mmD x 39mmH.  I will use 2-3 in parallel for each channel (depending on space). 
  
 The recommendation is to also use a film capacitor rated at 1 uF also in parallel for each channel as a bypass capacitor to improve high frequency playback.  I will be using: Mundorf F Cap 1uF / 450V, Mcap EVO Oil 25mm W x 16mm L.  This may present a challenge due to space as film capacitors tend to be large - and these are short and fat.
  
  
 Thought I'd save someone else the trouble of deciding what they need if they want to do the recommended mods to the Darkvoice 336SE to support low impedance headphones.  I'll report back when it's all arrived, installed and tested.  From everything I've read, it does no harm to replace the above capacitors, and sound quality (low bass reproduction) is greatly improved with these fairly simple modifications.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Darkvoice arrived 2 days ago and the new caps were waiting for it.  Very tight to work on and to fit 4 new caps per channel in there, but stacked into a little pyramid, the 3 100uF caps will just fit under the bottom cover.  
  

  
 Initially (unmodified), the sound quality was less than stellar with my HiFiMan 400S and Symphones.  The best sounding (and not ideal) was my Meze 99 Classics.  After replacement, the other headphones sounded much better, and bass response seemed equal to my solid state amp.  

 So far so good... these are initial impressions only.  YMMV.


----------



## TravAndAlex

One question for the experts out there:  

Since in stock form, an OTL amp is supposed to be an ideal match with a high z headphone (such as the Beyerdynamic 880 600ohm), will the replacement of the output capacitors with significantly larger values negatively impact the performance with the high impedance headphone?


----------



## himynameiskiera

Not at all. All you're doing is increasing the absolute limit rather than the sustained limit. The values of 100uf allow fewer frequencies to be cut off, for high impedance cans, less uf will be drawn.


----------



## TravAndAlex

Cool.  That is how I understood it, but just wanted to double check.  It really isn't a good match for my current headphones, other than the 99 Classics, even after the modifications.  Got a set of Beyer DT880 600 Ohms on the way and if that goes well, I'll need to figure out what to part with to afford a set of Sennheiser 600/650's.


----------



## cgouy

I have a shuguang cv181-z as the input, and a mullard 6080/cv2984 as the output. I'm really new to this. Can anyone suggest any other tubes to match these, or any other combinations? Using it with my Sennheiser HD600, and looking for warm and lush sound.


----------



## HeatFan12

Where you at UT?!?  I take a year off and you disappear!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Glad to see this thread still going!!!
  
 Couple members banned in a year, but still going strong!!


----------



## UntilThen

heatfan12 said:


> Where you at UT?!?  I take a year off and you disappear!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OMG HeatFan !!! I put out a missing person report on you.
  
 Still in Head-Fi but over at the Elise thread. 
  
 We have to get together for a pow wow again.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> OMG HeatFan !!! I put out a missing person report on you.
> 
> Still in Head-Fi but over at the Elise thread.
> 
> We have to get together for a pow wow again.


 
  
  
 LOL!!!  Still here.  Wanted to celebrate my 10 years on head-fi on this thread but it was not to be.  Ended up taking a year off from head-fi.
  
 Had an injury last year and just fell off the head-fi wagon.  All is well now.
  
 I see that your Elise is treating you well.  Read your review and it was outstanding.  Don't forget where you got your start with adapters. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Saw some new adapters floating around.  The 6A6 to 6SN7 is interesting.  But really just got back in the game and taking it slowly.  You know I don't need any more tubes or adapters but we shall see.  Lol.  This journey is never-ending.


----------



## UntilThen

One year has gone by quickly. You got me on adapters and now I've adapters flowing out of my ears.... tubes too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There was a period where tubes would arrive every week.
  
 I have those 6A6 to 6SN7 adapters but I've so far only use those tubes in Elise.
  
 Anyway here's a picture of my setup. Turntable to the left and not in the picture. Tubes in DV are Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 7236. Philips EL3N and Cetron 7236 in Elise.
  
 Now show me yours. Dust off the cobwebs first. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 ps: glad you recovered from your injury and all is well and welcome back.
  
 DV still sounding good. Bass has muscles.


----------



## UntilThen

There you go HF. 
  
 Fivre 6A6 with Tung Sol 5998.
  
 This is the first time I've used a 6A6 in DV and it sounds very good. I've so many 6A6. Fivre, Visseaux and National Union. There's also 6N7G, it's counterpart. Should work too.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> One year has gone by quickly. You got me on adapters and now I've adapters flowing out of my ears.... tubes too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!
  
 Beautiful setup!!  I remember when you were waiting for the Elise to arrive.  It's great to see the wait was well worth it.
  
  
  


untilthen said:


> There you go HF.
> 
> Fivre 6A6 with Tung Sol 5998.
> 
> This is the first time I've used a 6A6 in DV and it sounds very good. I've so many 6A6. Fivre, Visseaux and National Union. There's also 6N7G, it's counterpart. Should work too.


 
  
  
 Awesome!
  
 Yes, those were the adapters I saw.  I believe I have purchased a few different adapters from that seller.  Oh boy, here we go.  lol...  Another family of tubes I really don't need to invest in...


----------



## UntilThen

HF you don't need to invest in 6A6. The adapters are quite expensive and big and chunky. Pretty ugly.
  
 I'm quite happy to run my DV with Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998. This is a superb combo except that the 5998 is pretty expensive. I have a Bendix 6080wb coming which I'll be trying in the DV.
  
 How are your amps going? Still have the SinglePower?
  
 DV sounds very good with these tubes.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF you don't need to invest in 6A6. The adapters are quite expensive and big and chunky. Pretty ugly.
> 
> I'm quite happy to run my DV with Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998. This is a superb combo except that the 5998 is pretty expensive. I have a Bendix 6080wb coming which I'll be trying in the DV.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Nice UT! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, I still have all my amps.  The 6A6 caught my attention because I can use it with the DV as well as my three SP amps.
  
 The adapter is quite large but no prob fitting into the amps.
  
 Tonight going back to basics.  Bendix 6080WB & Tung Sol 6SN7 mouse ears.
  
 Pics incoming.  Dusting off the cobwebs. lollllll


----------



## HeatFan12

Bendix 6080WB & Tung Sol 6SN7GT (mouse ears).  Back to basics!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Simply beautiful both amps. You must have the last remaining SinglePower Extreme in working condition on the planet.

I bet the Bendix sounds good.

Excellent photography!


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Simply beautiful both amps. You must have the last remaining SinglePower Extreme in working condition on the planet.
> 
> I bet the Bendix sounds good.
> 
> Excellent photography!


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!!!
  
 The Bendix has power and it shines!
  
 LOL!!!  I have the last standing Extreme...and it sounds great!!!
  
 Just posted this on the Ultrasone thread:
  

 Ultrasone HFI-700, re-cabled w/ Black Dragon, double entry....Old Skooool for real!!!


----------



## UntilThen

HF is back. 
  
 Nice photo of the Ultrasone and SinglePower. The headphone seems to sit there nicely.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF is back.
> 
> Nice photo of the Ultrasone and SinglePower. The headphone seems to sit there nicely.


 
  
  
 Thanks UT!  Good to be back!!
  
 Getting the cobwebs off all the amps...lol....
  
 Tonight, the Mapletree.  Fitted with some Sylvania 12B4As & a Philips ECC83.  Grado love tonight (RS1i).
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Wow how many amps do you have? The Mapletree looks good as is the Grado.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> Wow how many amps do you have? The Mapletree looks good as is the Grado.


 
  
  
 Thanks UT! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lol.....Too many amps....Been on here for 10 years....Have collected toooo much....I considered a few months ago to sell a bunch of gear, but I will take a big hit on losses with depreciation....So, I just move things around and enjoy.


----------



## UntilThen

Keep those gear. They are priceless now.
  
 My Bendix arrived and I'm running it with Valvo C3G here. They are very good sounding power tubes. You must have got yours long ago and cheap.


----------



## HeatFan12

Beautiful UT!
 You really went to the dark side with the fragile C3G.  Awesome!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, the Bendix is a great power tube.  When they first caught my attention they were about $25-$40 each.  Have no idea what they go for now.
  
 The TS 5998, were going at $25.00 each back in the day.  Now, they have blown up to mars.  lol....You know I invested in a few of those. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 That's the thing about tube amps and selling them UT...The whole family has to go.....Not good in my book.  The seller loses a lot while the buyer gains everything in a complete package.  Years of research go down the drain and that is all part of the game, imo...


----------



## UntilThen

HF, you are sitting on a gold mine now. Do you happen to have GEC 6AS7G and GEC 6080 by any chance, that I can borrow?


----------



## yangian

How many hours a power tube can be used averagely?


----------



## UntilThen

yangian said:


> How many hours a power tube can be used averagely?


 
 Between 3000 to 5000 hours depending on usage.
  
 I've not burn up any tubes within a year but then I've lots of tubes to swap around.


----------



## HeatFan12

untilthen said:


> HF, you are sitting on a gold mine now. Do you happen to have GEC 6AS7G and GEC 6080 by any chance, that I can borrow?


 
  
  
 Lol...You know if I would have GECs and you wanted to borrow them, they would be on their way to Oz right now.  But unfortunately, I never invested in the GECs.  They were steep priced from the beginning and I had so many power tubes so I passed.  As well as the 7236.  Never jumped on those either.


----------



## yangian

untilthen said:


> Between 3000 to 5000 hours depending on usage.
> 
> I've not burn up any tubes within a year but then I've lots of tubes to swap around.


 

 Ok, thank you!


----------



## HeatFan12

Here you go UT!  I know you like the SinglePowers.  Two Ken-Rads VT-231 as power tubes.  Denon AH-D5000 (modded).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

HF, nice collection


----------



## sr2002

I recently ordered the 336SE from massdrop and expecting delivery around Nov 25th. 
  
 After reading through all these threads, I'm quite confused and have not found a good enough answer. I thought I would post here to see you all can give me a good starting point.
 This is my first tube amp ever and I'm new to the tube world. 
 I had the following questions: 
  
 1) Tube recommendations: I'm looking for a generally considered good tube (I understand all have different sound signatures and its up to personal taste. But remember I have no point of comparison at this point, so anything would be great). I'm a fan of a little warmer sound (the RA-12 from Rotel with the WM8741 is my current amp). Please suggest a couple of good starter NOS tubes (with model numbers and a good place to buy them in the US). Sadly I saw that my RCA red base 5691 tubes passed to my by my professor won't be compatible with this amp . 
  
 2) I currently have the HD600s, planning to buy the Audio Technica MSR7 or Oppo PM3 or DT770 250 ohm for office use, which is where this Amp will probably stay. Which ones would be better matched with this Amp, since I heard it plays well with high impedence headphones. Are there any simple mods ?
  
 It would be great if you all can give me a small part lists (tubes, capacitors (for the Hummm issue I read about) and anything else)), so that I can order those parts before the Amp arrives.


----------



## MajorRocker

sr2002 Tubes are best to get off of ebay check through this forum many tubes have been recommended. I personally just looked up a few tubes and purchased some on ebay and got an adapter so I could use my 6922 tubes. I purchased these capacitors in the link and my amp has been running fine no more annoying hum when you get a new tube. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3PC-Original-Nichicon-FW-220uf-50V-Audio-Capacitor-for-audio-cap-hifi-diy-B57-/131498512823?hash=item1e9dec11b7:g:JbgAAOxykVNRrUs7


----------



## Maxx134

Eight years after first post and 10yrs after original,
All I can say is wow this is the ultimate "first tube amp" to have,
As it uses some of the most popular and most favorite tubes made.
I had just stumbled upon this amp, while looking for a secondary amp to use for headphone and tube "burn in", so I won't burn up my main tube amp.

To think I was actually looking at small hybrids and didn't see this.
I really appreciate these threads for newcomers into the tube work like me.
I feel these amps are much better alternative to DIY as they are stepping stones to lean and build upon, but this amp is using the most desirable tubes to me.
I late to the party at less than 3yrs into tubes..

 I whish I had seen this thread sooner and now wondering if anyone has modded this unit.

This is the perfect unit to get before moving up to an LDMK6 which looks to be the balanced progression of this beauty...
(If needed)


----------



## atarione

hello,
  
 I admit I'm probably doing this backwards... but I bought my DV336SE last week... got it last Friday I guess..  listened to it quite a lot.. my wife conveniently went out of town right as it arrived so I have been using it quite a lot as a preamp for my Sony TA-N77ES > JBL L1 speakers...  I was properly happy with the sound even from the apparently not highly regarded stock tubes..
  
 I have been browsing ebay for tubes and today I finally just gave in... I am now waiting on 4 X NOS tubes from this (supposedly all tested.. all from sellers seeming to specialize in Tubes / tube stuff... with excellent feedback)
  
 2x of the tubes are 6NS7's  actually 2x of the same tube..because of being inexpensive and i figured if i like it I will have a spare should the first one go poof down the road?
  
 1950's RCA 6NS7GT's (sliver labels) from pics and description..Black Plates, Clear-Top with Bottom Getter, Copper Posts
  
 and then 6AS7's from description:
  
*RCA 6AS7G shoulder type NIB/NOS  83/80*
*GE 6AS7GA  80/80*
  
  
 I'm not expecting I have bought OMG teh tubes.. but my reading made it sound like these should be solid performers and provide an improvement from the stock tubes?.. so far my stock tubes have no hum that I can determine... and being basically the first tube amp I have ever heard pretty awesome..
  
 I have googled briefly and see ways to do basic tests when these tubes show up in a few days (test continuity at least) w/ a multi-meter..   any thing to look for when these arrive to be confident about putting them in the amp?    
  
 So while admitting I should have double checked before buying I am paying less than $10 per tube for these 4x tubes (total investment $35~ish)  did I do alright (assuming all arrives intact / as advertised?)


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

[/IMG][/IMG]
 All I have to say throw away that original tubes change immediately , don't waste your time trying to burn in their original Chinese tubes . Yes on start up when channel did hum. I let the original tubes burning in play for three days straight . Still humming and on the third day the large power to burnt out . After replacing the tubes with these NOS , Dead silence completely quiet when you tap on the tubes no microphonics. At first I thought my unit was broken because it was so quiet I thought the tubes were not working but actually they were doing exactly what they should be and that's being quiet when not in use .


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

DarkVoice's new home


----------



## atarione

So.. I received my 6SN7 tubes today... currently breaking in a RCA 6SN7GT ..still with the stock 6AS7 tube for the moment.. have two replacement RCA 6AS7G coke bottle tube (sold as NOS) and a GE 6AS7GA straight bottle (sold as used tested 80/80) 
  
 Using the RCA 6SN7GT both with my DT880 250Ohms and as a preamp for my Sony TA-N77ES > JBL L1's...
  
 Initial impressions... yeah it sounds fine... not entirely sure it sounds that much different than the stock tube so far honestly... but whatever... I guess I now will have a lifetime supply of tubes???
  
 I'm certainly reserving any judgments on the new tube, as I ran the stock tube a lot over the course of a week... work at home and my wife was out of town..so had it running all day basically as a preamp for my speaker setup... It was seeming to me the stock tube came alive after some amount of time and sounded better.... I realize apparently the stock tubes don't get much love around here...but as a total novice to tube sound I was quite enjoying it.
  
 I **think the RCA sounds better but it isn't a Revelation so far certainly... like maybe a ~2% better kinda thing...


----------



## atarione

Got my RCA 6AS7G and GE 6AS7GA today.. personally I'm feeling like this has made the larger difference from that of the stock tube vs switching to the RCA 6SN7GT up front..
  
 I'm really digging the sound from the straight bottle GE 6AS7GA (seems to be from 1956?? code 56-13 so 13th week of 1956 ? right?).   crazy how this tube is so much older than I am.. lol.. oh well.. kinda awesome in someways.. when I was a baby this tube had been sitting around for years and years..


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Do you need to bias this amp? Anywhere online other than eBay to buy tubes? Any website with guarantees and possibly someone who can help me? Compete,y new to this and have a 336se on the way


----------



## atarione

doctacosmos said:


> Do you need to bias this amp? Anywhere online other than eBay to buy tubes? Any website with guarantees and possibly someone who can help me? Compete,y new to this and have a 336se on the way


 
  
  
 So.. as the DV is my first tube amp ever and I have had mine all of a week and 1/2 my answer is going to be pretty 101..
  
 but apparently the amp is self biased which I googled and found this that made it seem pretty straight forward a "_large resistor impedance between the cathodes of the output tubes to ground" ..blah blah blah... you don't need to adjust the bias _





  I guess apparently..
  
 tube wise... I shopped around some... Part Express has the GE 6AS7GA NOS Tubes (for the back tube) for about $15~ or so and they had some EH 6SN7 Tubes for the front... however it seems most recommend NOS USA tubes for this ...
  
 The are a couple online stores that get mentioned for NOS tubes... I looked and found the pricing more than I wanted to pay... So I dug into searching on ebay and eventually found 2X RCA 6SN7 tubes (a GT and a GTA) for ~10ea one NOS /tested one used / tested.     I also got a RCA 6AS7G and a GE 6AS7GA for ~10ea.    the GE I got seems to be older than the ones parts express is selling..
  
 all in all for less than $40 total..I'm quite happy with my toe tip into the tube rolling... all my ebay tubes showed up well packed and as described in less than a week...    If you are selective about sellers and descriptions I think ebay is going to be a lot cheaper...
  
 up to you...
  
 enjoy you amp...I have been liking mine quite a lot..  for the time being I have kinda settled on the RCA 6SN7GT and GE 6AS7GA tube .... for now..


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Couldn't have asked for a better response! Thanks dude


----------



## boleiro

I ordered a Darkvoice after going through every page of this thread.  Lots of great info and I was sold on the descriptions of real warm tube sound.  However, after ordering I started going through the thread again and noticed something I missed the first time... I saw a short conversation on modding the darkvoice to sound better with lower Z cans.  see here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/348833/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii/960#post_12841611
  
 totally missed that the first time around.  I did note in this thread that Grados (which I have) were mentioned as being used together with the Darkvoice to good effect.  But I didn't pick up on the lower impedance issues the Darkvoice has.  I'll check my reading comprehension later.  Or maybe I can blame myself for mostly reading this thread too late in the night?
  
 So it's ordered and now, done deal.  So looking forward, do any of the mods mentioned, specifically the Fitz Mod get low z cans to that real tube sound, warm and liquid?
  
 One mention was that 5998 power tubes help as they handle lower z cans better.  I have some tubes already that will work with the Darkvoice.  Will any of help the Darkvoice play nice with grados?
  
 Raytheon 6080WC
 RCA 6AS7G Black Plate
 Tung Sol 6SN7GT Mica Mouse Ear
 RCA 6SN7GT
  
 Any other tips on getting the most out of the Darkvoice on 32ohm headphones?  
  
 I love my Grado 325's and use them exclusively, I'm not changing headphones for this amp.  Or, should I cancel the order before it ships?


----------



## UntilThen

boleiro said:


> I ordered a Darkvoice after going through every page of this thread.  Lots of great info and I was sold on the descriptions of real warm tube sound.  However, after ordering I started going through the thread again and noticed something I missed the first time... I saw a short conversation on modding the darkvoice to sound better with lower Z cans.  see here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/348833/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii/960#post_12841611
> 
> totally missed that the first time around.  I did note in this thread that Grados (which I have) were mentioned as being used together with the Darkvoice to good effect.  But I didn't pick up on the lower impedance issues the Darkvoice has.  I'll check my reading comprehension later.  Or maybe I can blame myself for mostly reading this thread too late in the night?
> 
> ...


 
 I'll let you enjoy your Darkvoice 336se for 6 months before I tempt you to try out Elise by Feliks Audio, which handles 32 to 600 ohms headphones.
  
 I've both tube amps in my possession. Whilst the DV 336se is a great intro to tube amp, Elise is another level all together. Tubes are complimentary on both tube amps. 
  
 Enjoy your DV. If it handles your low z cans then good otherwise stick with high z cans.
  
 Ps.. Tung Sol 5998 is a great power tube. Full of energy and punch.


----------



## boleiro

I hope I take all 6 months enjoying the darkvoice! Just googled the Elise. Thanks for pointing out my next amp... That looks too nice. Kind if cruel, don't you think.


----------



## UntilThen

boleiro said:


> I hope I take all 6 months enjoying the darkvoice! Just googled the Elise. Thanks for pointing out my next amp... That looks too nice. Kind if cruel, don't you think.


 
 Well enjoy the Darkvoice. It has more bass weight. Elise though has faster transient response and feels agile and fast. Both amps still sits on my table.


----------



## atarione

boleiro said:


> I ordered a Darkvoice after going through every page of this thread.  Lots of great info and I was sold on the descriptions of real warm tube sound.  However, after ordering I started going through the thread again and noticed something I missed the first time... I saw a short conversation on modding the darkvoice to sound better with lower Z cans.  see here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/348833/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii/960#post_12841611
> 
> totally missed that the first time around.  I did note in this thread that Grados (which I have) were mentioned as being used together with the Darkvoice to good effect.  But I didn't pick up on the lower impedance issues the Darkvoice has.  I'll check my reading comprehension later.  Or maybe I can blame myself for mostly reading this thread too late in the night?
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 So... I just saw these ... and I'm wondering if they might be good for this... vs modding the amp and possibly messing up the tube rolling fun / making less awesome for higher impedence cans?
  
  
 http://penonaudio.com/3.5mm-Male-to-3.5mm-Female-Impedance-Adapter
  
 $8~ impedance raising male to female 3.5 adapter..   up to 175Ohms avail...  anyone have any thoughts on this???   (realizing of course you would need a 1/4" adapter to use this with the DV..)


----------



## boleiro

is that magic?


----------



## atarione

boleiro said:


> is that magic?


 

 I think it is a resistor??? in there basically
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> So.. I received my 6SN7 tubes today... currently breaking in a RCA 6SN7GT ..still with the stock 6AS7 tube for the moment.. have two replacement RCA 6AS7G coke bottle tube (sold as NOS) and a GE 6AS7GA straight bottle (sold as used tested 80/80)
> 
> Using the RCA 6SN7GT both with my DT880 250Ohms and as a preamp for my Sony TA-N77ES > JBL L1's...
> 
> ...


 
  
 To touch on atarione here. I kind of agree with him on the stock tubes. It could be because I've only just touched into the audiophile realm with a flaming pitch fork. At the moment I have the Jotenheim and DarkVoice. Fostex TH-X00s for the Jotenheim and HD650s for the DarkVoice.
  
 I rather enjoyed the experience the stock tubes gave off. I did not like the 0 bass, no not at all, but it did give the HD650s this airy, sound staging increase quality about them. I jumped into the tube rolling with a vengeance.
  
 First Set.
  
 TungSol 6SN7GT Grey Plate
 RCA 6080 and TungSol 6080
  
 To my ears, this gave off a very similar experience to my solid state. Swapping A/B (as best I can currently), the sound seemed very similar, which isn't at all why I got the tube amp in the first place haha. 
  
 Second Tube Combo
  
 Sylvania VT-231
 RCA 6AS7G (Coke bottle)
  
 This combo is much more enjoyable, it has a more "pronounced" low end, just that warmth only a tube can give.
 I am at the moment holding myself back from the Kenrad VT-231 in my possession (which is said to have the best bass) until I get a better impression from the tube combo I now currently run.
 Question I have though, does the 6SN7 have more effect on the sound than the 6AS7?
  
 Best thread for the novice tube roller on 6SN7:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Having difficulty finding any thread as informative as this for the 6AS7 tubes.


----------



## atarione

I have been running my RCA 6SN7GT and straight bottle GE 6AS7GA for awhile now... I assume both tubes have probably burned in pretty good (probably have 20~ hrs on them maybe a bit more).. 
  
 I have decided I quite like this combo.... which is a slight bummer as the coke bottle shaped of the RCA 6AS7G is a bit more appealing looks wise..  after Xmas I may give the RCA 6AS7G some more of a go...
  
 it may just be a synergy thing... I feel like the GE GA tube is a bit warmer ... which helps as my head phones, DT880's are somewhat bright by nature..   I think after some hours on my current tubes they are a clear (albeit still not OMG teh difference !) improvement over the stock Chinese tubes.. but the stock tubes didn't sound bad at all.. to me.
  
 considering the price of many tube amps.. this has been quite a reasonable venture into Tube amps.. even w/ my 2x 6SN7 and 2X 6AS7 tube purchases I'm still under $300 all in on this project so far.. quite a lot of fun.
  
  
 I'm curious if anyone else really digs that GE 6AS7GA ..or if it is just me... but I kinda love it.
  
  
 at first I assumed the 6SN7 would have the most impact on the sound... but I'm now kinda thinking the 6AS7 has quite a lot of effect as well.


----------



## 41Venom14

Maybe some of the veteran tube rollers could chime in on this one.
  
 Would some one be able to list all compatible tubes of the 6SN7 and 6AS7 and compatible tubes with adapters that work on the DarkVoice?
  
 I read early on that the wrong tubes could damage the DV or the tubes and surprisingly there isn't all that much information on the DarkVoice.
  
 I've ran into tube rolling quite hard. My poor wallet. 
  
 Favorite combo right now
 Sylvania VT-231
 JAN RCA 6AS7G (coke-bottle)
  
 By far has the most bass I've heard from tubes so far. Gives my HD650s some very impactful low end, which is something they aren't really known for. There is a bit of hum in the right channel from the VT-231, but that luscious low end makes acoustic songs sound incredible, very warm and drenched in honey, while I think it was a song from Incubus I realized how solid the bass was. I even compared it to my solid state, and the tubes gave more bass than the SS. Very impressed. 
  
 Also, are they any negatives or positives to 6SN7 coin bases? Besides them looking amazing. I would assume there wouldn't be much audio difference between the two, and if that's the case, I'll stock up on those coin bases haha.


----------



## boleiro

I received my Darkvoice today, just 4 days to deliver!  It came so fast that none of the tubes I ordered on the same day are here yet.   The tubes should arrive tomorrow.  The Darkvoice sounds great with the stock tubes.  Can't wait to see what the nos tubes ordered sound like.
  
 I really wanted to comment on the Darkvoice with low impedance headphones as this was my initial concern given all the talk of the Darkvoice not being a good match for low z cans.  So, I can say that the Darkvoice sounds really good with my 32ohm headphones.  No magic impedance adapters needed.  They are a great match.  
  
 One thing, does anyone know if there is a user manual in english?  the user manual is straight chinese...


----------



## 41Venom14

boleiro said:


> I received my Darkvoice today, just 4 days to deliver!  It came so fast that none of the tubes I ordered on the same day are here yet.   The tubes should arrive tomorrow.  The Darkvoice sounds great with the stock tubes.  Can't wait to see what the nos tubes ordered sound like.
> 
> I really wanted to comment on the Darkvoice with low impedance headphones as this was my initial concern given all the talk of the Darkvoice not being a good match for low z cans.  So, I can say that the Darkvoice sounds really good with my 32ohm headphones.  No magic impedance adapters needed.  They are a great match.
> 
> One thing, does anyone know if there is a user manual in english?  the user manual is straight chinese...


 
  
 What types of cans are you using and what tubes are on the way?
  
 The DV isn't good for impedance cans, I know why, but not sure I can explain it correctly and would like someone else to follow up on that question or idea.
  
 As for an english user manual, I've never found one. The amp itself is ridiculously simple though.


----------



## boleiro

My headphone is a modded Grado SR80e... that really aren't grados anymore as I replaced the stock drivers with Symphones V7 drivers, at 32ohms. The tubes on the way are; Raytheon 6080WC, RCA 6AS7G, Tung Sol 6SN7GT and RCA 6SN7GT.

And I can say for sure that the DV is good for, at least, my low z cans. I've read about the OTL amp low impedance headphones a lot now and while not an ideal match up, it works for me. Compared to my Asgard 2 amp, the DV sounds different but very good. 

Yeah, I don't need the manual, but would have liked to have one if available.


----------



## UntilThen

41venom14 said:


> Would some one be able to list all compatible tubes of the 6SN7 and 6AS7 and compatible tubes with adapters that work on the DarkVoice?


 
 I might someday. I'll just start off with a list of compatible power tubes for DV 336se. Ones that I've used with good effect and no hum on my unmodded Darkvoice.
  
*Power tubes*
 Tung Sol 5998
 Tung Sol / Cetron 7236
 Chatham 6AS7G
 RCA 6AS7G
 Bendix 6080
 Mullard 6080
 RCA 6080
 Svetlana 6H13C
 GE 6AS7GA
  
 That should be plenty of power tube choices of varying prices.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm using Beyer T1 and HD650 with good results on Darkvoice 336se.
  
 OTL amps such as the DV are ideally suited to high impedance headphones. It could still play some low impedance ones with 32 ohms, as some of you have discovered.
  
 I did not have good results using HE-560 planar magnetics on the DV though.


----------



## TravAndAlex

boleiro said:


> I received my Darkvoice today, just 4 days to deliver!  It came so fast that none of the tubes I ordered on the same day are here yet.   The tubes should arrive tomorrow.  The Darkvoice sounds great with the stock tubes.  Can't wait to see what the nos tubes ordered sound like.
> 
> I really wanted to comment on the Darkvoice with low impedance headphones as this was my initial concern given all the talk of the Darkvoice not being a good match for low z cans.  So, I can say that the Darkvoice sounds really good with my 32ohm headphones.  No magic impedance adapters needed.  They are a great match.
> 
> One thing, does anyone know if there is a user manual in english?  the user manual is straight chinese...


 


 That is awesome that you are happy with the Darkvoice and your Symphones!  If you are happy with that match (and with stock tubes) you are in for a real treat when you get to hear it with something like the HD 600/650's or DT880's.  The power and dynamics are really impressive.


----------



## atarione

I am back to my RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GT in mine..  
  
 This amp has renewed my love affair with my DT880 Premium 250Ohms headphones..    I have also used it with my SE-A1000's sounded pretty good, and my ATH-M50's ..i thought this would suck but actually not bad..    Tried it with my DT770 Pro 80s .. and to my ears it was an immediate NO NO NO NO NO... took the headphones off.. tired it again.. and it was still just a total NOPE fest..
  
 trying it right now w/ my M50's again (removable cable mod, HM5 pleather memory foam pads and tape over 4X of the base holes (sounds funny ??? ..whatever) on each ear cup (0X000X0 top and bottom)
  
 as described here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/470541/very-simple-ath-m50-balance-mod-less-bass-more-mids
  
  
 I'm not sure why.. and maybe others will disagree but the combo of DT770 Pro80's and DV was just not a good combo.. and I do like my DT770's otherwise..


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> I might someday. I'll just start off with a list of compatible power tubes for DV 336se. Ones that I've used with good effect and no hum on my unmodded Darkvoice.
> 
> *Power tubes*
> Tung Sol 5998
> ...


 
  
  
 Awesome, thank you very much. I'm curious about the 6SN7 variants. I know Heat (OP) has different adapters and such for different tubes so I'm curious what those are and what tubes it allows him to experience.
  


atarione said:


> I am back to my RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GT in mine..
> 
> This amp has renewed my love affair with my DT880 Premium 250Ohms headphones..    I have also used it with my SE-A1000's sounded pretty good, and my ATH-M50's ..i thought this would suck but actually not bad..    Tried it with my DT770 Pro 80s .. and to my ears it was an immediate NO NO NO NO NO... took the headphones off.. tired it again.. and it was still just a total NOPE fest..
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Lol, I had the same experience with my Fostex T50s, they didn't stay on longer than 5 mins before I removed them and banned them permanently from the DV.
  
 I dunno what I read in the 6SN7 Reference Thread, but it states that the Kenrad VT-231 is known for its bass. Well I beg to differ. When the Sylvania VT-231 and Kenrad VT-231 are both paired with an RCA 6AS7G, the Sylvania wins hand downs. There is no competition, my HD650s never sounded so ******* good holy ****. I went from those zero bass stock tubes to this incredibly punctuating presentation. It's very nice. I may have actually ordered another Sylvania VT-231 as a spare....whenever that happens lol. It does hum though, so I think I'll be doing the Fitz mod soon.
  
 I just received a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, and ordered an RCA 6SN7GTB Coin Base, Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin Base, and a pair of Sylvania 6080. I gotta try out the TungSol and RCA 6080s I have with the Sylvania VT-231, but I wanna try a combo of Sylvanias, and then test out these coin base tubes. I'm very curious to see 1. How they sound. 2. How good they look glowing.


----------



## UntilThen

41venom14 said:


> Awesome, thank you very much. I'm curious about the 6SN7 variants. I know Heat (OP) has different adapters and such for different tubes so I'm curious what those are and what tubes it allows him to experience.


 
 I did spend some time with HeatFan on this thread sharing our tube rolling discovery. He showed me many variants using adapters. I have several of these which I bought in pairs, in the hope that it will work with Elise too and it did. Remember Elise uses twice as many drivers and power tubes as Darkvoice 336se.
  
 Some of these tubes with adapters produces hum in my DV but not in my Elise.
  
 These are the tubes and adapters:-
  
 Note I can't guarantee that these tubes will be hum free in your DV.  
  

*Driver **Adapter*7N77N7 to 6SN7 adapter6922, 6N23P, ECC88ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter6CG7, 6BQ7A, 6BZ76CG7 to 6SN7 adapter
  
 Aside from these, you have the many variety of 6SN7. I have several of 6SN7:-
  
 RCA 6SN7gtb coin base - clear, bright sound.
 Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top - clear, bright and sweet.
 RCA 6sn7gt Smoke Glass VT231 - Warm, dark and good bass. VT231 means the tube is manufactured for the military and therefore more robust. A lot of these tubes did not originate as audio tubes but nevertheless sounds good in tube amps.
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt Gold Brand - drier but a lovely tone. Not as bright as the above Sylvania. Good soundstage and bass.
 Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears - bright clear sound. Love this in combination with Tung Sol 5998 on Darkvoice 336se.
 Tung Sol 6SN7gtb re-issue (Russian made) - on the warm and lush side of neutral.
  
 For my ears, these are all better than the DV stock tubes.


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> I did spend some time with HeatFan on this thread sharing our tube rolling discovery. He showed me many variants using adapters. I have several of these which I bought in pairs, in the hope that it will work with Elise too and it did. Remember Elise uses twice as many drivers and power tubes as Darkvoice 336se.
> 
> Some of these tubes with adapters produces hum in my DV but not in my Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 That is perfect, thank you so very much. I will have to go back through and read through the entire thread. I think I only made it half way through before I had an issue with the DV (turned out to be my DAC). I agree with your ears, all the combos I have started to use have all sounded better than the stock tubes for sure. I did not mind the stock tubes at all, mine were dead silent, but the lack of low end was disappointing, but I enjoyed the increased soundstage.
  
 I feel the DV fixes the HD650s. The HD650s are fantastic in my eyes (or ears rather), and I wouldn't say I'm treble sensitive, but the HD650 highs are fatiguing over time while running it on a solid state amp. Right now with the Sylvania VT-231 and RCA 6AS7G combo, the highs are brought down a bit. the vocals and instruments are pushed back away, but the bass is just as good or maybe even slightly better than my Jotenheim. I want to build an A/B rig soon so I can better quantify the differences.
  
 Did you buy the adapters off of ebay or is there a retail store that would make a higher quality product?
  
 Are there any 6CG7 or 6922 tubes you would highly recommend?
  
 Also, if you have time, how is the Elise better than the DV? Is the sound better? Is it more tubeness than the DV? I'm guessing the Elise is better with low impedance cans? 
  
 I will make sure to go through and read the entire thread so not to miss out on what you, Heat, and the rest of the Head-Fi community, have accomplished with the DV.


----------



## UntilThen

Those adapters are from ebay.

I've only one RCA 6CG7. 6GU7 is compatible too with that adapter. HeatFan send me these tubes. 

There are lots of 6922 variety of varying prices. I've only tried one. Vokshod 6N23P year 1975. Dynamic bass for such a tiny tube.


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> Those adapters are from ebay.
> 
> I've only one RCA 6CG7. 6GU7 is compatible too with that adapter. HeatFan send me these tubes.
> 
> There are lots of 6922 variety of varying prices. I've only tried one. Vokshod 6N23P year 1975. Dynamic bass for such a tiny tube.


 
  
  
 Thanks alot UT. Oh this opens up so many more possibilities.
  
 I'm very curious how these smaller tubes sound in comparison to the 6SN7s.


----------



## windcar

I read alot of comments how 6SN7 changes the sound. Is it just me who find the most changes comes from changing 6AS7 and not the preamp tube?


----------



## atarione

windcar said:


> I read alot of comments how 6SN7 changes the sound. Is it just me who find the most changes comes from changing 6AS7 and not the preamp tube?


 
  
  
 I have only had mine a couple weeks but changing the stock tube to either my GE 6AS7GA or RCA 6AS7G certainly has had a noticeable effect... I had assumed the preamp tube would have the most effect ..but I think either tube has a significant effect.


----------



## 41Venom14

windcar said:


> I read alot of comments how 6SN7 changes the sound. Is it just me who find the most changes comes from changing 6AS7 and not the preamp tube?


 
  
 I agree with atarione to an extent. From my very novice experience with tubes, already have a ******* drawer full lol, I feel the 6SN7 has more of an effect on the sound than the 6AS7, but both do have an effect on the sound.
  
 I'm still working on really picking up the differences. I wish I had two DVs to create an A/B rig to really critique the sound of different tube combinations.
  
 Tonights combo:
 RCA 6SN7GTB Coin Base - Kinda was hoping to see more glow, but UT was dead on with his description - Clear and Bright sounding. 
 Sylvania 6080WC [JAN]
 This tube combo is DEAD SILENT. I love when new tubes have absolutely zero hum. 
  
 Also snagged another Sylvania VT-231 (so far my favorite preamp tube), looking forward to a Sylvania combo.


----------



## UntilThen

My fav tube combo in Darkvoice 336se is the Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998. Here is a picture of DV and Elise.


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> My fav tube combo in Darkvoice 336se is the Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998. Here is a picture of DV and Elise.


 
  
 I would love to hear this combination. Unfortunately the TungSol 5998 is roughly $150 on ebay, and I have yet to find the TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears.
  
 Your description on the RCA 6SN7GTB Coin Base was dead on, very bright and clear. I swapped it out with the new Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 6080WC and really enjoyed the experience. The new VT-231 has less hum than the other so I think I'll keep the other as a replacement even though these tubes may very well out last me.
  
 I think my next step will be to pick up a couple adapters and start rolling the 6922 and 6CG7 tubes out of curiosity more than anything else. 
  
@UntilThen, how much did both TungSols cost you if you don't mind me asking? I'm still trying to get a feel for what the tube market is suppose to be like. It amuses me when I see people mislabel a tube to charge more for it, so I'm very wary about the very high priced tubes. There is a NOS Sylvania 7236 going for $95, and it looks so similar to the Sylvania 6080 I have, that I cant understand why it costs 9 times more. Also most TungSol VT-231s are in the $100+ range easy.
  
 Most expensive tube I purchased so far was the Kenrad VT-231 at $40, which felt high, but I wanted to experience this incredible bass that they are known for.


----------



## UntilThen

@41Venom14 you don't particularly need to get the Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears. A Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top is more readily available and cheaper. However you've already the Sylvania vt231 and Ken Rad vt231 plus RCA 6sn7gtb coin base. That's a good range of different tones from your drivers.
  
 Ken Rad 6sn7gt vt231 is a pretty good driver, excelling in mids and bass. The Sylvania vt231 is less bass pronounced compared to KR and has a better top end.
  
 If you look at the picture of my Elise, you'll see that I've Tung Sol 7236 as power tubes. Both Tung Sol and Cetron 7236 are similar sounding because Tung Sol was bought over by Cetron. Slyvania 7236 is different sounding from the Tung Sol / Cetron version and also different from the Sylvania 6080wc.
  
 7236 and 5998 have higher gain and they will sound louder but this is not the reason they are more favoured. There's just more energy in these tubes. They are linear, detailed and have a very good bass. 7236 is leaner sounding compared to the 5998. Both these power tubes are expensive.
  
 There's another power tube that I like but it's hard to find now and expensive. It's the Bendix 6080wb slotted base.

  
  
  
 Tube rolling is addictive and you can get carried away. Have fun though.
  
 This is a Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-6SN7GT-TUNG-SOL-Mica-Mouse-Ears-Hi-Fi-Radio-Amp-Vintage-Vacuum-Tube-322218-/291982780453?hash=item43fb87a825:gnAAAOSw4GVYTZvf
  
 This is a pair of Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-6SN7GTB-Sylvania-Chrome-Top-Vintage-Tubes-Reference-Plus-Grade-Best-Quality-/302177730661?hash=item465b324065:g:Gz4AAOSwhdRYWF~w


----------



## atarione

I got another maybe best described as workman ~ish tube..  it was $5 so i bought it..  GE 6SN7GTB (apparently from the ref thread ..probably 50's (white labels D-getter..)
  
 liking it quite fine as well...need tube storage boxes however..didn't come with a dang tube box... don't really want to buy 25 or more boxes which seems to be what i was seeing on ebay..or pay $9 or something in shipping on a couple..    anyone have suggestions for boxes that work well or place to buy boxes specifically for tubes for little money?
  
  
 one more question:  For anyone using the DV w/ Beyer DT880's where do you usually wind up setting the volume knob at for comfortable listening?.. I seem to be between 9-10 O'clock here..


----------



## UntilThen

Just get any box and line it with bubble wrap and keep your tubes in it.

I did have a dt880 250 ohms before I sold it. About 9 to 10 on the volume dial is probaby correct.


----------



## atarione

LOL... just to show how much I have been enjoying this amp so far.. I am listening to Classical right now.. for some reason (no offense to classical fans ...intended..but) I don't even like classical...  but I'm digging it right now.
  
 quite a nice xmas gift indeed this amp has been thus far.


----------



## Verhulk

My first post here in Head-Fi I've bought the Darkvoice 336 SE last week. Ebay said it would take about 3 weeks to ship it to Holland, but in 3 days it was here. The sound with the original tubes isn't bad (or very good). I've started tube roling as well. Bought some cheap tubes to expirment:
 Driver: Tung Sol 6 SN7GTB (new Russian)
 Power: Sovtek 6AS7G & GE 6AS7GA
  
 Ofcourse the Driver first has to burn in, so there's a hum. But the difference between the chinese and the Tung Sol is now already extremely huge. Never expected that the difference could be so big. What a great sound from this little (and cheap) tube amp!! Fun is to know that you guys are using way better tubes than I'm using now. I'm really looking forward to see what's the full potential of this amp.
  
 Think I need to change my headphone as well. It's an AKG 240 Studiomonitor. When I read this forum, there are better headphones, and an impendance of 50-74 ohm is on the low side for this amp.


----------



## 41Venom14

verhulk said:


> My first post here in Head-Fi I've bought the Darkvoice 336 SE last week. Ebay said it would take about 3 weeks to ship it to Holland, but in 3 days it was here. The sound with the original tubes isn't bad (or very good). I've started tube roling as well. Bought some cheap tubes to expirment:
> Driver: Tung Sol 6 SN7GTB (new Russian)
> Power: Sovtek 6AS7G & GE 6AS7GA
> 
> ...


 
  
 That was actually the first combo I purchased as well. It worked, it brought the bass back, but American tubes are the way to go for sure. Ebay is your friend.You can pick up some good cheap tubes. 
  
 Power Tubes:
 RCA 6080 or 6AS7 - Both good options 6AS7 is better in my opinion.
 Sylvania 6080
 TungSol 6080
 These tubes should run you like eh $20 or so.
  
 Preamp Tubes: (Where the true fun begins)
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
 Go there, see what you think you may enjoy. VT-231s are more expensive. But RCA, Sylvania, and TungSol can be pretty cheap in the 6SN7GT variants. 
  
@UntilThen - I purchased the TungSol Mouse Ears that you linked, I also tracked down a Bendix 6080 that I am looking to purchase for max $80. There was also some Sylvania 7236s for $95 that look pretty pristine (for 50 years old). I am thinking of spending my money on an adapter for the 6922s or 6CG7s because they just look adorable. Do you think the 6SN7s trump the 6922s or 6CG7s or do they hold their own in their own way?


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> I got another maybe best described as workman ~ish tube..  it was $5 so i bought it..  GE 6SN7GTB (apparently from the ref thread ..probably 50's (white labels D-getter..)
> 
> liking it quite fine as well...need tube storage boxes however..didn't come with a dang tube box... don't really want to buy 25 or more boxes which seems to be what i was seeing on ebay..or pay $9 or something in shipping on a couple..    anyone have suggestions for boxes that work well or place to buy boxes specifically for tubes for little money?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Dude, I've already filled one of my drawers with tubes lol, think I counted 13 tubes already, some pairs. It's annoyingly addictive, and now I'm looking at the 6922s and 6CG7s that I just want to see hooked up on the DV. 
  
 What combo are you running right now?


----------



## UntilThen

41venom14 said:


> @UntilThen - I purchased the TungSol Mouse Ears that you linked, I also tracked down a Bendix 6080 that I am looking to purchase for max $80. There was also some Sylvania 7236s for $95 that look pretty pristine (for 50 years old). I am thinking of spending my money on an adapter for the 6922s or 6CG7s because they just look adorable. Do you think the 6SN7s trump the 6922s or 6CG7s or do they hold their own in their own way?


 
 Great you'll love Mickey Mouse and Bendix 6080 at $80 is a good buy if it's slotted graphite plates and fairly new.
  
 I love 6SN7s. You can't go wrong with them on DV. The other variants aren't better but 6N23P is a very interesting tube. It hits hard and is very energetic with a good solid bass. I know there are some 6922 that are pretty expensive but I've not invested in those.


----------



## Verhulk

Thanks for all the tips, just bought the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top.
  
 Now checking some good deals with the power tube. Ordering from Europe (Holland) can be expensive due to customs, and not every seller can send it as a "sample"


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> Thanks for all the tips, just bought the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top.
> 
> Now checking some good deals with the power tube. Ordering from Europe (Holland) can be expensive due to customs, and not every seller can send it as a "sample"


 
 The Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top is a great sounding driver. Try and pick up a Chatham 6as7g.


----------



## Verhulk

Searching the internet for some nice powertube I've found. I think the first one is one you suggested UntilThen? Indeed a not really expensive tube. Great! The Bendix is indeed $80 like you said in an earlier post. But is it correct that your favorite tube (besides the 5998) is the Tung Sol of $ 50?
6AS7G   Chatham $20
6080  Tungsol Chatham $15
6080  Bendix $ 80
7236 Tung-Sol $ 50
  
And in my opinion too expensive tubes, but what does top getter and bottom getter mean? And are the 5998 the price difference worth?
5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, top getter $ 100
5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, bottom getter $ 150 
  
Enough choice. The difficulty is making the right choice. Music I'm listening is very broad, from classical top rock. But most of the time Classic Jazz (1960-1970) Jazz Rock (Weather Report etc) and Rock Classics.


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> Dude, I've already filled one of my drawers with tubes lol, think I counted 13 tubes already, some pairs. It's annoyingly addictive, and now I'm looking at the 6922s and 6CG7s that I just want to see hooked up on the DV.
> 
> What combo are you running right now?


 
  
  
 I have only got the 5x tubes so far  
 6SN7's   :  RCA 6SN7GT , RCA 6SN7GTB and the GE 6SN7GTB (running now)
  
 6AS7's :  RCA 6AS7G (running now) and GE 6AS7GA


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> Searching the internet for some nice powertube I've found. I think the first one is one you suggested UntilThen? Indeed a not really expensive tube. Great! The Bendix is indeed $80 like you said in an earlier post. But is it correct that your favorite tube (besides the 5998) is the Tung Sol of $ 50?
> 6AS7G   Chatham $20
> 6080  Tungsol Chatham $15
> 6080  Bendix $ 80
> ...


 
 Wow that's cheap for a Chatham 6as7g. Get it quick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 My fav power tubes are 5998, 7236 and Chatham 6as7g. 
  
 Mullard 6080 is quite good too. However by all means do try out the others too.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to my Darkvoice on HD650 now. Tubes are RCA 6sn7gtb coin base and Tung Sol 5998. Great sound. DV has more bass weight than Elise but Elise is more refined and has a fast transient response. Wider soundstage as well. Elise is a classier sound but DV sounds good too for such an affordable price. I'm keeping mine. They co-exist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Tubes on Elise are Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite plates.


----------



## 41Venom14

verhulk said:


> And in my opinion too expensive tubes, but what does top getter and bottom getter mean? And are the 5998 the price difference worth?
> 5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, top getter $ 100
> 5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, bottom getter $ 150


 
  
"We want a good, hard vacuum inside a tube, or it will not work properly. And we want that vacuum to last as long as possible. Sometimes, very small leaks can appear in a tube envelope (often around the electrical connections in the bottom). Or, the tube may not have been fully "degassed" on the vacuum pump at the factory, so there may be some stray air inside. 
 
The "getter" is designed to remove some stray gas.
 
The getter in most glass tubes is a small cup or holder, containing a bit of a metal that reacts with oxygen strongly and absorbs it. (In most modern glass tubes, the getter metal is barium, which oxidizes VERY easily when it is pure.) When the tube is pumped out and sealed, the last step in processing is to "fire" the getter, producing a "getter flash" inside the tube envelope. That is the silvery patch you see on the inside of a glass tube. It is a guarantee that the tube has good vacuum. If the seal on the tube fails, the getter flash will turn white (because it turns into barium oxide).
 
There have been rumors that dark spots on getters indicate a tube which is used. This is NOT TRUE. Sometimes, the getter flash is not perfectly uniform, and a discolored or clear spot can occur. The tube is still good and will give full lifetime. *THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY TO DETERMINE THE HEALTH OF A TUBE IS TO TEST IT ELECTRICALLY.*
 
Glass power tubes often do not have flashed getters. Instead, they use a metal getter device, usually coated with zirconium or titanium which has been purified to allow oxidation. These getters work best when the tube is very hot, which is how such tubes are designed to be used. The Svetlana 812A and SV811 use such getters.
 
The most powerful glass tubes have graphite plates. Graphite is heat-resistant (in fact, it can operate with a dull red glow for a long time without failing). Graphite is not prone to secondary emission, as noted above. And, the hot graphite plate will tend to react with, and absorb, any free oxygen in the tube. The Svetlana SV572 series and 572B use graphite plates coated with purified titanium, a combination which gives excellent gettering action. A graphite plate is much more expensive to make than a metal plate of the same size, so it is only used when maximum power capability is needed. Large ceramic tubes use zirconium getters. Since you can't see a "flash" with such tubes, the state of the tube's vacuum has to be determined by electrical means (sometimes by metering the grid current)."
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
 
Dropping some knowledge, I love learning about hobbies I get into, that website breaks down all the components in a vacuum tube, very cool stuff, definitely suggest taking the time to read all about vacuum tubes.


----------



## 41Venom14

@UntilThen - I picked up the Bendix 6080 for $72 woot.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/361866694377?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Not sure if that link will work, but it says it is slotted graphite plates.
  
 I also snagged a 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter for the Sylvania 6CG7 Long Plate Copper Post 1958 D-Getter.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/291887901858?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Okay, think I definitely need to cool my roll with tubes lol.
  
 In my possession:
  
 Preamp:
 TungSol 6SN7GT Grey Plates
 Kenrad VT-231
 Sylvania VT-231
 TungSol 6SN7GTB
 RCA 6SN7GTB Coin Base
 Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Plates
 Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin Base
 TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears
 Sylvania 6CG7
  
 Power Tubes:
 Bendix 6080
 Sylvania 6080WC
 RCA 6AS7G
 TungSol 6080
 RCA 6080
  
 I've been tube rolling for 2 weeks, already have more than I can listen too.


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> And in my opinion too expensive tubes, but what does top getter and bottom getter mean? And are the 5998 the price difference worth?
> 5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, top getter $ 100
> 5998 Tung-Sol and Chatham tubes, bottom getter $ 150


 
 I've 2 types of 5998. One has green lettering (1960s) on the base. These have one top round getter and one bottom round getter. I also have a 5998 in white lettering (1950s). This have 2 round getters at the top.
  
 The 2 variety sounds the same to me.
  
 5998 sounds good but it's very expensive these days. Price depends on the condition of the tube. A new or nearly new tube will fetch a premium price.


----------



## UntilThen

@41Venom14  impressive collection after 2 weeks ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 That's a lot of variations of tones with those tubes. Good selection too.
  
 That Bendix 6080wb is a great find at that price. Looks new - well it's advertised as NIB / NOS. Congrats.
  
 Wow that Sylvania 6CG7 is expensive.


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> @41Venom14  impressive collection after 2 weeks !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks UT, without the help of this thread I would have been so lost haha. Thank you for all the help and I'll definitely be sticking by this thread and trying to pass the knowledge I have learned.
  
 Once I've recuperated some of my spending on tubes, I will be purchasing a soldering kit and resistors for the Fitz mod, which I will document as well as I can, for others if they so choose to attempt the mod as well. 
  
 Also looking to possibly swap out the potentiometer, any mods that I do that are successful will be posted.


----------



## atarione

So I'm sorry I can't remember right off.. Have I read that the Fitz mod while helping tame hum issues kinda reduces the benefits of/ differences in tubes with tube rolling??
  
 trying to remember...  I don't know if I have terrible ears or luck of the Irish.. but w/ my DV with the tubes I have acquired and the stock tubes I could here no hum in any of the combos I have tried.


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> So I'm sorry I can't remember right off.. Have I read that the Fitz mod while helping tame hum issues kinda reduces the benefits of/ differences in tubes with tube rolling??
> 
> trying to remember...  I don't know if I have terrible ears or luck of the Irish.. but w/ my DV with the tubes I have acquired and the stock tubes I could here no hum in any of the combos I have tried.


 
  
 Don't apologize, the only effect the Fitz mod has is to reduce the hum of certain tubes, and slightly increases the gain of the knob, so if your volume knob was originally set at 9 o'clock, it may have to be turned down to 8 o'clock.
  
 It does not effect the tube sound in anyway as far as I know of, just reduces the hum from tubes that have it.
  
 For example, one of my Sylvania VT-231 hums quite loudly, and the Fitz mod would reduce or eliminate this hum entirely. It's true, some tubes just need to be burned in and the hum will go away. I have not burned in enough tubes to make that judgement call, but the Fitz mod has no effect on the sound that I am aware of. 
  
 Maybe UT knows some people who have done this mod and can verify my claim because I remember UT stated his DV is unmodded.


----------



## PurpleAngel

I've had my 336SE for a few months now, so far I'm enjoying it drivng my T90 headphones.
 What are some lower costing tubes to start out for tube rolling?
 Guess one of the reasons for buying extra tubes is to have something handy in case one of the stock tubes fails.


----------



## atarione

purpleangel said:


> I've had my 336SE for a few months now, so far I'm enjoying it drivng my T90 headphones.
> What are some lower costing tubes to start out for tube rolling?
> Guess one of the reasons for buying extra tubes is to have something handy in case one of the stock tubes fails.


 

 I have bought 5x tubes on ebay .. 4 of them came from 2x tube deals
  
 GE 6AS7GA (which I personally quite like vs the stock tube) and a RCA 6AS7G (also very decent) got the pair of them for $18~ shipped
  
 RCA 6SN7GT and 6SN7GTB 2x tube deal also near about $18 shipped.. both a upgrade from the stock tube
  
 then I was browsing and saw a GE 6SN7GTB for $4.99 w/ free shipping so I bought that also..
  
 see the 6SN7 reference guide here.. there are a lot of fairly inexpensive tubes on ebay (but .. watch for the sellers feedback and whatever)  .. the tubes listed above are the collective whole of my experience.. but I'm relatively happy with all of them
  
 running the RCA 6AS7G and GE 6SN7GTB currently...   working quite well w/ my DT880's


----------



## UntilThen

I bought my DV from another person and he told me it's unmodded. Most of my 6sn7 doesn't hum in DV. As I recall, the new Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top hums when new but now after many months of burn in on Elise, it's hum free on the DV.
  
 I don't know of anyone who have mod their DV.
  
@PurpleAngel if you're enjoying your DV with stock tubes, trying some other tubes will bring even more satisfaction. For some of the lower cost 6sn7, see some of the recent posts on the tubes mentioned.


----------



## Verhulk

> In my possession:
> Preamp:
> TungSol 6SN7GT Grey Plates
> Kenrad VT-231
> ...


 
 Wow, that's very impressive 41Venom14! Only 2 weeks of tube rollling. Your range of tubes but your knowledge of tubes is already great!


----------



## Verhulk

untilthen said:


> Wow that's cheap for a Chatham 6as7g. Get it quick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for all your advice UntilThen!
  
 I've just ordered:
 6AS7G  Chatham
 6080  Tungsol Chatham
 7236 Tung-Sol
  
 Yesterday the 6SN7GTB
  
 Now just wait and hopefully i'll can start tuberolling next week.


----------



## atarione

more or less.. allow me to (over??) simplify tube rolling in a nutshell.. spend all you money on tubes ..oh wait..
  
 tube choice:
 USA > Russia > China


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> Thanks for all your advice UntilThen!
> 
> I've just ordered:
> 6AS7G  Chatham
> ...


 
 Well done Verhulk. You're on a roll.


----------



## 41Venom14

verhulk said:


> Wow, that's very impressive 41Venom14! Only 2 weeks of tube rollling. Your range of tubes but your knowledge of tubes is already great!


 


verhulk said:


> Thanks for all your advice UntilThen!
> 
> I've just ordered:
> 6AS7G  Chatham
> ...


 
  
  
 Thank you @Verhulk, I'm absolutely jealous of your TungSol 7236. The only one I can find on ebay is a pair for $200. I'm curious...but not that curious lol. I hope I answered your "What is a getter" question satisfactorily. I found that website looking to understand what the Mica was because on ebay similar tubes were stated with 2 or 3 Mica, I highly doubt there is a difference in sound between the two, but I was curious about What a Mica was lol.  
  


atarione said:


> more or less.. allow me to (over??) simplify tube rolling in a nutshell.. spend all you money on tubes ..oh wait..
> 
> tube choice:
> USA > Russia > China


 
  
 Well put @atarione, I told my GF that tube rolling was a cheaper alternative to buying another pair of headphones. I lied, its not lol. I don't even want to add up all the ebay purchases I have made. Nope, I'll leave that to ignorance is bliss and sit here with my glowy tubes.


----------



## Verhulk

41venom14 said:


> Well put @atarione, I told my GF that tube rolling was a cheaper alternative to buying another pair of headphones. I lied, its not lol. I don't even want to add up all the ebay purchases I have made. Nope, I'll leave that to ignorance is bliss and sit here with my glowy tubes.


 
 Here the same case @atarione & @41Venom14. I'm afraid the cheap chinese amp has almost doubled the price.... And now I'm checking new headphones (HD800S & BeyerDynamic T1). But still much cheaper compared to going to the pub,  a new Harley or a divorce and/or a new girlfriend


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> Here the same case @atarione & @41Venom14. I'm afraid the cheap chinese amp has almost doubled the price.... And now I'm checking new headphones (HD800S & BeyerDynamic T1). *But still much cheaper compared to going to the pub,  a new Harley or a divorce and/or a new girlfriend*


 
 That's the spirit.


----------



## Verhulk

Does anyone know what this means?
  
_1 Tung Sol 5998 tube branded Chatham Electronics FAA-CAHG-5998_
_It has the Tung Sol code 3226008  8th week of 1960_
_*Tested on a TV7 tester  46/46  minimum is 40/40*_
  
 Are they in a good condition, or already pretty old?


----------



## atarione

verhulk said:


> Does anyone know what this means?
> 
> _1 Tung Sol 5998 tube branded Chatham Electronics FAA-CAHG-5998_
> _It has the Tung Sol code 3226008  8th week of 1960_
> ...


 

 sorry I'm not sure exactly.. but this is sort of a thing.. I have noticed.. there are apparently many different testers out there and the numbers aren't clear if you don't have the whole story on them..   the missing piece here would seem to be what NOS readings would be???   and that I don't know?
  
 I would contact the seller and see if they can tell you what NOS would read as on that tester.


----------



## Verhulk

atarione said:


> I would contact the seller and see if they can tell you what NOS would read as on that tester.


 
  
 I'll do that @atarione!
  
 Until now I haven't received my new (old) tubes.
  
 Still working with the Tung Sol 6 SN7GTB (new Russian). Started burning in the tube last Saturday continuesly, but this morning there was still a hum. Gets less and less, but very clear to hear. I've read that the average was between 40 and 70 hours (very broad range) but this takes already longer. Can you guys point out how long it normally takes for you? Is there a difference between quality and/or New and NOS?


----------



## atarione

verhulk said:


> I'll do that @atarione!
> 
> Until now I haven't received my new (old) tubes.
> 
> Still working with the Tung Sol 6 SN7GTB (new Russian). Started burning in the tube last Saturday continuesly, but this morning there was still a hum. Gets less and less, but very clear to hear. I've read that the average was between 40 and 70 hours (very broad range) but this takes already longer. Can you guys point out how long it normally takes for you? Is there a difference between quality and/or New and NOS?


 
  
  
 kewl.. hopefully the seller gets back to you with that info..
  
 So with my DT880's I haven't been able to hear any hum with any of the tubes I have..   However I tried my Sony MDR-V6's and there was a tiny bit of hum on the right channel...  I gently tapped my finger on the case of the DV (sort of because I was thinking about what to do about it.. and the hum stopped... lol??? I may be the Fonz of tube amps??)
  
 I have read a bit and some say they had to give tubes 100~ hours before hum settled.. so maybe it just needs more time.. It might also be the stock power tube causing the hum not the 6SN7??
  
 after my Fonz move mentioned before I had shut the amp down and came back to it later the hum came back with the V6's (taping the amp chassis again stopped it??).. I got curious swapped from the RCA 6SN7GT to GE 6SN7GTB tube... hum still there w/ the Sony's ... so switched from RCA 6AS7G to GE 6AS7GA and low and behold the sony's didn't really have the hum any longer..
  
 Happily in my case it is sort of moot as I really mostly use the DT880's with this amp and so far I don't hear any hum when using them.
  
  
 I won't take any blame if it goes wrong...  but maybe try gently tapping the chassis w/ your finger and see if the hum stops???  .. for me I just barely tapped the case and the hum stopped..and i was all like ...HUH????


----------



## 41Venom14

I too have the Russian TungSol 6SN7GTBs as you know @Verhulk, and through reading about tubes and the like, I believe Skylabs stated that most Russian tubes hum or just not of great quality and are known to hum. I don't know if any amount of burn in time will remove the hum entirely. As to why tubes hum, I am not sure, I just know it depends on the tube.
  
 None of my RCA tubes hum and one of my Sylvania VT-231 hums louder than the other, both in great condition. Hopefully you will get your new (old) tubes soon so you can see how good tubes sound without the hum.
  
 I don't mind the hum, as long as the music is loud enough, the hum is unnoticeable, but once the music dips in and out of its range and you focus on the hum, you just wanna shoot the tubes lol. 
  
@atarione what resistance are your DT880s?


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> @atarione what resistance are your DT880s?


 
  
 I have the 250Ohms version


----------



## Verhulk

Today I've received the Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top. The difference between the original Chineese tubes compared with the Russian Tung Sols was already huge (but still with a hum. What happend when I listenend to the Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top is almost magic. What a HUGE difference! Thank you all for the advise. Very clear, energetic and especialle a great soundstage.
  
 The 6AS7 is still the Russian Sovtek. But today I've got mail that the 3 powertubes are shipped and are in Jacksonville Florida. So within a few days they should arrive here in Holland as well. Hope that those tubes will show the same difference as the driver tubes....


----------



## atarione

on the upside the Sylvania tubes don't seem to be too expensive.. on the downside I feel like I'm going to need to buy one or two now..


----------



## 41Venom14

@Verhulk Oh my god she is just a beauty. If I didn't grab the TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears I would have grabbed the Chrome Dome Sylvanias. 
  
@atarione Thank you, I've been looking at the DT770 250ohm for closed cans I can run on the DV. I keep looking at and getting interested in low impedance cans that just don't work well with the DV. My next purchase I'm thinking will be the ZMF Oris (32 ohm). Essentially a modified Fostex T50RP, but omg is it modified in the best way possible. I have the Mayflower Electronic Version 3 Fostex T50s, but I plan to give those to my GF and I think the Ori's can have a spot in my collection. 
  
 Custom Built PC > SMSL Sanskrit 6th Gen > DV with Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin Base + Sylvania 6080WC < HD650 (cable from bestintheversecables) 
 Also note, my HD650s never stay sitting this way, only for the picture haha.


----------



## atarione

lol... if you did leave you headphones there they might melt?? which would be quite sad indeed.
  
 how do you like that coin base 6SN7.. that tube got pretty roasted on in the Ref thread... looks pretty kewl however.    Also how do you like that 6080 right now I'm running the GE 6AS7GA straight bottle tube  + RCA 6SN7GT


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> lol... if you did leave you headphones there they might melt?? which would be quite sad indeed.
> 
> how do you like that coin base 6SN7.. that tube got pretty roasted on in the Ref thread... looks pretty kewl however.    Also how do you like that 6080 right now I'm running the GE 6AS7GA straight bottle tube  + RCA 6SN7GT


 
  
 Lol, seriously, I honestly don't think I can part with my HD650s. They have been the best headphones I've bought so far. They do everything right. The second is the Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts.The sub bass and the vocals and omg it does all of it right lol.
  
 The GE 6SN7GT Coin Base version was the one that got roasted. I'm not sure about the other companies coin bases, but the RCA Coin Base version was a bit to bright for me. I love the HD650s, but they are bright enough as is. 
  
 I rather enjoyed the Sylvania 6SN7GT Coin Base, honestly I think Sylvania is one of my favorite companies. I'm really on the look out for that gooey thick honey coated warmth that the Sylvania just seem to give off. The Sylvania VT-231, in my opinion, has better bass than the Kenrad VT-231. Maybe it's all subjective, the Sylvania VT-231 has this thrumming low end, where the Kenrad is tight, which maybe is where the "best bass" tube comes from.
  
 Just got the TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears in! My god its gorgeous, the seller unfortunately wrote "98 100/50" on the tube in sharpie, dick, lol thankfully its located on the back of the tube when it is in place. 
  
 Combo for tonight - TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears and RCA 6AS7G (such a fan of the "coke" bottle). There is a bit of hum in the left channel from the TungSol but not very loud and the music easily drowns it out. Gonna need some time with this tube, obviously it sounds good. The bass is tight, the soundstage is an increase from the Sylvania combo I had going and of course there is a picture lol. Cannot wait to get the Bendix 6080. Should get it sometime next week. Also a KenRad 6SN7GTB came in. Tooo maaany tubes to listen too ugh.


----------



## goodtill

After reading both threads on the 336se, I finally bit the bullet and hopped on the Massdrop buy. My DV shows up tomorrow and and I have a Tung Sol 5998 and a Tung Sol Tall 6SN7GTB waiting for it. There are also a set of Nichicon 220uF 200v axials on their way for the Fitz Mod.
  
 I have some questions on the 5998. The one I received has green writing on it. It also has 3 mica plates on top. The seller stated that it has black Domino plates. Sadly I am not exactly sure if I ordered the correct 5998 that everyone here is recommending.
  
 In addition , the base plate on the 5998 is a little loose. I can rotate it about 10 degrees, Need I worry about that?
  
 I looking forward to putting my HD650's on this unit. Right now they are on a Fiio K5 with a 5Xii in DAC mode from my Hackintosh Intel NUC.
  
 Thx
 Mike


----------



## 41Venom14

goodtill said:


> After reading both threads on the 336se, I finally bit the bullet and hopped on the Massdrop buy. My DV shows up tomorrow and and I have a Tung Sol 5998 and a Tung Sol Tall 6SN7GTB waiting for it. There are also a set of Nichicon 220uF 200v axials on their way for the Fitz Mod.
> 
> I have some questions on the 5998. The one I received has green writing on it. It also has 3 mica plates on top. The seller stated that it has black Domino plates. Sadly I am not exactly sure if I ordered the correct 5998 that everyone here is recommending.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome to the world of the DV and already tube rolling with the best of them. I think UT would be the best to answer the question about the tubes aye @UntilThen?
  
 Honestly, the best way to find out if a tube works is to fire it up in the DV. As long as the getter flash is still chrome or black and not white, the vacuum should be still good and that would be the biggest concern if the base was loose, in my opinion. 
  
 Please post pictures on the Fitz Mod. I am looking to do it as well and if any other beginners at modifying want to try their hands at it, I think a good couple pictures would be awesome @goodtill.


----------



## Verhulk

Wecome to the beautifull world of tuberolling @goodtill Looks like you've bought some great tubes, but there are more experienced members here in this tuberolling party. The chineese tubes are not that good. But changing the tubes gives a lot of fun. I have now as drive tubes:

Regular Chinese tube
New Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (russian)
Sylvania 6SN7 GTB chome top
  
 My experience with the new Tung-Sol wasn't very good. Yes it was much better compared with the regular tube, but it gave a lot of hum. Even after 6 days burning in there was still a hum. Then I received the Sylvania. Way better!
  
 Yesterday evening i tried the Tung-Sol 6SN6GTB again. WHAT a sound difference compared to some days earlier. A lot of punch, more bass, but still very clear. The downside was that there is still a (very) small hum. It was already late when I experienced this, so I had to go to bed. Now its morning and I can't wait to come home tonight and play and listen to some different kinds of music and test the tubes. The sylvania still has to burn in. Hope that there will be a sound improvement as well.
  
 My order of the 3 different powertubes is still in the USA. Now the are in sunny  Miami on the airport. Looks like they don't want go to dark and cold Holland. But it will be a lot of fun combining all those tubes together. Checking out all the combinations.
  
 Have a great day!


----------



## UntilThen

goodtill said:


> After reading both threads on the 336se, I finally bit the bullet and hopped on the Massdrop buy. My DV shows up tomorrow and and I have a Tung Sol 5998 and a Tung Sol Tall 6SN7GTB waiting for it. There are also a set of Nichicon 220uF 200v axials on their way for the Fitz Mod.
> 
> *I have some questions on the 5998. The one I received has green writing on it. It also has 3 mica plates on top. The seller stated that it has black Domino plates. Sadly I am not exactly sure if I ordered the correct 5998 that everyone here is recommending.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 5998 does have the Domino plates. Little dimples of 6 on the plates. 3 mica plates in the tube is correct. You have the 5998 indeed.
  
 The way to fix loose base  is to apply clear nail polish on the joint between the base and the glass. When it dries, it will hold up well. Give the area a wipe with a lightly damp cloth and dry before applying.


----------



## sohailoo

Hey guys 
  
 I've just received my DV 336SE and want to change the tubes what do you guys recommend ? 
 and where is the best place to buy them 
 i use it with HD 700 + AKG 7XX


----------



## 41Venom14

sohailoo said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I've just received my DV 336SE and want to change the tubes what do you guys recommend ?
> and where is the best place to buy them
> i use it with HD 700 + AKG 7XX


 
  
 Welcome, welcome, to the world of tubeeee rolling, where the tubes are plentiful, but your wallet is empty. 
  
 As for tubes, go back a couple pages and see as about 3 of us all got DVs and started tube rolling at the same time, so there's a lot of tube information there.
  
 I'm quite partial to Sylvania tubes, but each and everyone of us has their preferences.
  
 Your 6SN7 (preamp) Reference thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 As for Power Tube:
 TungSol, RCA, Sylvania 6080s, great tubes.
 RCA 6AS7G - Highly recommend (coke bottle shape)
 Bendix 6080 - if you can find one.
 TungSol 5998 - High rollers tube (aka $$$$$)
  
 EBAY! 
 There's also a couple out dated websites hanging around that I never purchased from.
@Verhulk has some experience with this, care to chime in mate? Do you have tubes from that site yet?


----------



## atarione

my advice.. is short and simple ...RUNNNN!! no wait... just kidding
  
 I would probably go ebay route.. just buy from established sellers with good feed back and buy tested tubes.
  
  
 What I would do and did do... was to stay away from the $$$$$ tubes.. at first at least
  
 I have 5x tubes now besides the stock tubes..    4X of them came from 2x lot's ..   all in all they came out to about $8 ea  ::1x GE 6SA7GA (straight bottle) 1 X RCA 6AS7G (coke bottle)  and RCA 6SN7GT and GTB.    I also impulse bought a $5 GE 6SN7GTB for $5
  
 probably for me honestly all of these tubes are well ahead of the Chinese tubes that come with the DV    ...what I have been running most of the time is the RCA 6AS7G and the RCA 6SN7GT but any of them are pretty good.
  
 I may spring for something more spendy later .. but a nice low $$ NOS USA tube is probably good enough ... imho.. but hey if anyone wants to plop down for $$$$ tubes by all means go for it.
  
  
 edit :::  I really want one of them mouse ears TungSol's now however


----------



## Verhulk

Warm welcome @sohailoo! You'll have a lot of fun with your Darkvoice. Agree what @atarione and @41Venom14 advice. I've bought some cheap tubes. I'm now listening to the
 *Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (new Russian)
 *Sovtek 6AS7G (new Russian)
  
 Both tubes took some time to get the right sound. Especially the Tung-Sol. But if you do it this way, tube rolling starts to be really fun. After one week, this tube sounds very, very good. I'm sure there are better tubes available, so I've bought several tubes as well. The NOS USA Sylvania 6 SN7GTB sounds great and better.
  
 As a power tube I've bought the NOS GE 6AS7GA. Very cheap, but I don't like this tube compared to the Sovtek. So new and Russian isn't always bad, LOL.
  
 I'm indeed waiting for some tubes bought at VacuumTubes The website isn't very good qua looks, but very informative and the prices are reasonable. I'm still waiting for my 3 power tubes, but it has nothing to do with the company, but with the postal service. USPS is shipping it since januari 2nd, and I can track the shipment. They are shipping it everywhere, but are still in Florida, grrr. So I can't say anything about the quality of VacuumTubes.net, but it looks like they are OK.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Digging it so far! It has its strengths and it's weakness. I'm sure all stock tube related. First things first, my brain just simply accepts the sound as being more real. It's less dry than my Asgard but also less texture. My wife's p7's have got a good dip in the lower midrange and not only sets most male vocals back but also causes big discontinuty between it and the upper midrange. The darkvoice really opens up the midrange though and allows you to see into it better and this helps with the dip making it a more palpable experience. However the p7 also gets a bit muddy in the lower midrange when upper bass comes into play, the amp expresses this and because the tube adds a bit of reverb the muddiness flaw is expressed a bit more And yuck. I don't see it as a flaw in the amp though.


----------



## iBrian

I need to find some good tubes for my 336SE and HD800S'. I still am using the ones from the day purchased and they seem to be getting worn out with the little use. 
I have searched over this whole site for a good combination and can not find a definitive answer on what may be a great combo for my combo. Anyone have any suggestions for that will give me the nice mellow highs I'm looking for with the rich mid and low response. I love these HD800S's. but I still need to roll off the highs a little to offset my tinnitus. the Bad part is. I listen to anything and everything so thats why I can't find the tubes I would fit me . Any help would be appreciated


----------



## 41Venom14

doctacosmos said:


> Digging it so far! It has its strengths and it's weakness. I'm sure all stock tube related. First things first, my brain just simply accepts the sound as being more real. It's less dry than my Asgard but also less texture. My wife's p7's have got a good dip in the lower midrange and not only sets most male vocals back but also causes big discontinuty between it and the upper midrange. The darkvoice really opens up the midrange though and allows you to see into it better and this helps with the dip making it a more palpable experience. However the p7 also gets a bit muddy in the lower midrange when upper bass comes into play, the amp expresses this and because the tube adds a bit of reverb the muddiness flaw is expressed a bit more but then also adds reverb to it. I don't see it as a flaw in the amp though.


 
  
@DoctaCosmos, what tube is that in the 6SN7 slot good sir?
  


olewhiskey said:


> I need to find some good tubes for my 336SE and HD800S'. I still am using the ones from the day purchased and they seem to be getting worn out with the little use.
> I have searched over this whole site for a good combination and can not find a definitive answer on what may be a great combo for my combo. Anyone have any suggestions for that will give me the nice mellow highs I'm looking for with the rich mid and low response. I love these HD800S's. but I still need to roll off the highs a little to offset my tinnitus. the Bad part is. I listen to anything and everything so thats why I can't find the tubes I would fit me . Any help would be appreciated


 
  
 I am with you on the highs from the Sennheiser line up. I only have the HD650s, but when running the solid state amp, the highs can be very fatiguing.
  
 Your best bet is to probably stay away from RCA tubes. They are great, don't get me wrong, but they are very bright tubes, IMO.
  
 I with you, love the highs, but want them toned down just a touch. My favorite 6SN7 tube right now is the Sylvania VT-231. It pulls the highs down, has good midrange, but has a very thrumming low end. I feel, IMO, it has better bass than the Kenrad VT-231, but the Kenrad VT-231 has very tight bass where as the Sylvania VT-231 has a bit more of a "warbly" bass, if that makes sense.
  
 I'm still a noob tube roller so I don't feel qualified to give you a good idea on tube combos. I think steering clear of RCA for the time being and trying out Sylvania and TungSol would be your best bet. 
  
 6SN7 Reference Thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
 ^^^^^ Great place to find the pre-amp tube you are looking for. Honestly, I feel the pre-amp tube has a bit more effect on what you are hearing. There is debate on this, but the only time I can really hear the music change is when I am swapping out the 6SN7s. 
  
 As for Power Tubes (6AS7)
 RCA 6AS7G - Bit Bright and Clean 
 TungSol or Sylvania 6080 - Can't go wrong, great power tubes.
 TungSol 5998 - Pricey, but highly recommended by just about everyone.


----------



## DoctaCosmos




----------



## UntilThen

olewhiskey said:


> I need to find some good tubes for my 336SE and HD800S'. I still am using the ones from the day purchased and they seem to be getting worn out with the little use.
> I have searched over this whole site for a good combination and can not find a definitive answer on what may be a great combo for my combo. Anyone have any suggestions for that will give me the nice mellow highs I'm looking for with the rich mid and low response. I love these HD800S's. but I still need to roll off the highs a little to offset my tinnitus. the Bad part is. I listen to anything and everything so thats why I can't find the tubes I would fit me . Any help would be appreciated


 
 HD800S highs is already tame off but if you need to tone it down further, you could try this combo.
  
 RCA 6SN7gt Smoke Glass with RCA 6AS7G. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-RCA-CRC-JAN-6SN7-GT-Tube-smoked-glass-Tested-Good-/252089794898?hash=item3ab1b90152:g:1S0AAOSwHjNV9MGE
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6AS7G-TUBES-RCA-TOP-GETTER-BLACK-PLATES-USED-TESTED-LOC-H-2-/262791343126?hash=item3d2f95ac16:g:0KsAAOSwJQdW-t9e
  
 RCA 6AS7G is warm with a full on mid bass. I prefer the lighter and breezier Chatham 6as7g.
  
 If that combo is too warm and lush, switch the driver to Sylvania 6SN7gtb Chrome top.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-6SN7GTB-Sylvania-Chrome-Top-Vintage-Tubes-Reference-Plus-Grade-Best-Quality-/302186144437?hash=item465bb2a2b5:g:Gz4AAOSwhdRYWF~w
  
 These tubes aren't too expensive. The Sylvania and Ken Rad VT231 are more expensive.


----------



## iBrian

Thank you guys for the great fast responses. and awesome feedback. I will probably end up purchases all of the recommended ones lol.


----------



## iBrian

41venom14 said:


> @DoctaCosmos
> 
> 
> I with you, love the highs, but want them toned down just a touch. My favorite 6SN7 tube right now is the Sylvania VT-231. It pulls the highs down, has good midrange, but has a very thrumming low end. I feel, IMO, it has better bass than the Kenrad VT-231, but the Kenrad VT-231 has very tight bass where as the Sylvania VT-231 has a bit more of a "warbly" bass, if that makes sense.
> ...




Do you have any links for the 6SN7 and the 6AS7 tubes you are referring too?


----------



## 41Venom14

olewhiskey said:


> Do you have any links for the 6SN7 and the 6AS7 tubes you are referring too?


 
  
 But of course,
  
 Sylvania VT-231
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CHS-6SN7GT-VT-231-SYLVANIA-TALL-GLASS-BLACK-PLATE-SUPERB-AUDIO-TUBE-/262457922884?hash=item3d1bb61544:g:TBIAAOSwUfNXSao2
  
 Kenrad VT-231
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Rad-JAN-CKR-6SN7GT-VT-231-1940s-USA-Vacuum-Tube-Amplitrex-Tested-at-90-/282298995947?hash=item41ba54d4eb:g:lScAAOSwZQRYWrVp
  
 RCA 6AS7G
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-MATCHED-NOS-RCA-JAN-6AS7G-VACUUM-TUBES-DATED-10-67-/302190220009?hash=item465bf0d2e9:g:RcYAAOSwo4pYcVs6
  
 Sylvania 6080
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Pair-Jan-6080WC-Sylvania-Vacuum-Tubes-Tested-Strong-And-Guaranteed-/142222160696?hash=item211d19f338:g:lnYAAOSwbYZXV5SC
  
 TungSol 5998
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-NOS-TUNG-SOL-5998-TUBES-DOMINO-BLACK-PLATE-6080-421A-TYPE-PAIRS-AVAILABLE-/182399263346?hash=item2a77d7e272:g:Rv0AAOSwzgRW0e5k


----------



## iBrian

41venom14 said:


> But of course,
> 
> Sylvania VT-231
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CHS-6SN7GT-VT-231-SYLVANIA-TALL-GLASS-BLACK-PLATE-SUPERB-AUDIO-TUBE-/262457922884?hash=item3d1bb61544:g:TBIAAOSwUfNXSao2
> ...





Thanks!


----------



## atarione

I would like to restate my own personal fondness for the GE 6AS7GA .. really detailed and smooth sound with this one in the DV
  
 I hate to say it ..but I think I prefer the GE 6AS7GA to the RCA 6AS7G
  
 I think I'm going to pick up a couple 6060WA tubes to mess around with.


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> I would like to restate my own personal fondness for the GE 6AS7GA .. really detailed and smooth sound with this one in the DV
> 
> I hate to say it ..but I think I prefer the GE 6AS7GA to the RCA 6AS7G
> 
> I think I'm going to pick up a couple 6060WA tubes to mess around with.


 
  
@atarione, did you ever grab those 6060WA? Or did you mean 6080WA? 
  
 Right now I am working on finding my favorite combo, once that is found I can start playing with other combos.
  
 Last night I was running Sylvania VT-231 + Bendix 6080. Loved it, I have a tough time explaining what I hear because of the length of time it takes to swap tubes or just the general I will listen to a certain tube combo one night and swap it out the next, pretty much completely forgetting the finer details and having to focus on the more generalized, but I will succeed.
  
 Anyways (Sylvania VT-231 + Bendix 6080) , very enjoyable. I am absolutely in love with the Sylvania VT-231. It has this extended low range, when coupled with the Sylvania 6080, that can literally vibrate the speaker below my ear. Most of the bass comes about middle of my ear (makes sense) but when two Sylvania's are in the DV, the low end response is the entire speaker. 
  
 With the Bendix 6080, the bass was impactful, the sound was full of warmth, and sounded like I was front row at a concert. Didn't matter what was playing, metal, screamo, dubstep, acoustic, etc. All of it sounded deliciously good.
  
 Tonights combo: Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 6080
 I think this is my favorite combo so far, I keeeep going back to it. The low end response is warm and magical in my ears. The highs are almoooost too much, but just pulled down a dB or two, perfect. I tend to listen to my music too loud I'm sure. Really curious about the Sylvania 7236 and Sylvania 6AS7, which are on my to buy list. I love when a song comes on that I KNOW so well, I've listened to it a million times, and all the sudden I'm like, that's how good those guitar strings can sound? I know it might not be accurate, but hell I don't care, it sounds so damn good. 
  
 How do you guys compare tubes best?
  
 What I think would be a great way to really compare different tube combos would be to record the same song coming from my headphones with a bunch of different types of tube combos, then listen to it all over again with a solid state amp and see if I can pick out the differences. Theoretically, in my mind, this makes sense since a solid state amp gives the most accurate response so by recording songs from the headphones with a tube then listening to those songs with a solid state amp would give an accurate idea on how or if the sound changes.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I'm afraid to spend $$ on tubes and it change the sound to much! I mean there's plenty of room for refinement but the simple fact of the matter i my music finally has soul. I've started making new playlists with old songs. What this amp has really done for me is made me want to get a tube amp for my speakers, my newest playlist "tubes" was made entirely with me imagining the songs were being plaid through some speakers just sending this musical vibe through the whole room that no one could resist stopping to listen.


----------



## 41Venom14

doctacosmos said:


> I'm afraid to spend $$ on tubes and it change the sound to much! I mean there's plenty of room for refinement but the simple fact of the matter i my music finally has soul. I've started making new playlists with old songs. What this amp has really done for me is made me want to get a tube amp for my speakers, my newest playlist "tubes" was made entirely with me imagining the songs were being plaid through some speakers just sending this musical vibe through the whole room that no one could resist stopping to listen.


 
  
 It's not like you can't revert back to the tubes you enjoy most, but I completely understand what you mean. I have not been able to take my HD650s off my head every single night. 
  
 Anyone ever try out the PSVane tubes? They are all over the place, quite expensive, and I have never read a single review on them anywhere. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Psvane-UK-6SN7-HIFI-series-Vacuum-Tubes-/351950878599?hash=item51f1e83787:g:S8MAAOSw-kdX0Po9
  
 States it is a 6SN7 tube, but I dunno about that.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Well that's quite obvious lol. Guess what I'm saying is I'm playing the ignorance is bliss role for a while. I'll let this play out for a while till I get my zmf eikons and then probably upgrade tubes as I have a feeling they will being out the flaws worse.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I'm hoping I can replicate this soulful quality with my speaker setup. Hopping something as similar as running it as a tube pre amp can bring it to the table and I won't have to go the full on tube power amplification too.anyone on here have any ideas?


----------



## atarione

try it out..
  
 I have been using it quite a lot with my Sony TA-N77ES > JBL L1's .. been quite nice.. getting nice tube preamp sound ..   I have the matching Sony TA-E77ESD preamp for my sony power amp.. it is a quite nice SS pre but the DV is quite good with it as well.
  
 down side is of course burning the tubes the whole time it is one..  I'm pondering picking up one of these to try
  
 https://www.amazon.com/Douk-Audio-Vacuum-Pre-Amplifier-Silver/dp/B01FD7NHUY/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1484114509&sr=1-2&keywords=tube+preamplifier
  
 especially come summer time the heat from the DV may be problematic in my home office room here..


----------



## Verhulk

Finally Powertube rolling can start!!!! Today I've received finally from vacuumtubes.net my:

7236 Tung-Sol (NOS USA)
6080 Tung-Sol (NOS USA)
 Unfortunatelly the 6AS7G Chatham was no stock available. A pitty, because @UntilThen very fond of this tube. Besides these NOS tubes I have the

GE 6AS7GA (NOS)
Sovtek 6AS7G (new Russian)
  
 Let's check out how they combine with the driver tubes:

6SN7GTB Tung-Sol (new Russian)
6SN7GTB Sylvania NOS USA)
  
 Looking forward to an evening listening to music and checking the different tubes. Thank you all guys for this great forum and advise. Any suggestions what kind of tube I'm really missing? Besides the 5998 Tung Sol. That one is too expensive in my opinion.


----------



## gbiagini97

Does anyone know the actual output impedence from the darkvoice with the stock tubes?


----------



## PurpleAngel

atarione said:


> I have bought 5x tubes on ebay .. 4 of them came from 2x tube deals
> 
> GE 6AS7GA (which I personally quite like vs the stock tube) and a RCA 6AS7G (also very decent) got the pair of them for $18~ shipped
> 
> ...


 
  
 So just ordered the RCA 6AS7G and GE 6SN7GTB, hopefully i will enjoy them as much as you do


----------



## 41Venom14

gbiagini97 said:


> Does anyone know the actual output impedence from the darkvoice with the stock tubes?


 
  
 If I am understanding your question correctly, does not matter if you have the stock Chinese tubes or USA NOS tubes, the DV does not like low impedance headphones. Anything around 250 ohm and up would be fine, but when you get into the lower impedance headphones the bass goes out the window. For example, the Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts (32 ohms), best sub bass I have ever heard (so far) and it is at pitiful levels on my DarkVoice. As for the exact number, I do not know. No matter what information you find about the DV, it will always state that it can handle 32~600 ohm headphones, but try to shoot for 250~600 ohms.
  
 There are some mods that can be done to the DarkVoice to better suit low impedance cans like swapping out the 6 main capacitors if my memory serves me well. I have not done this, but have heard of it. Also some tubes are better for low impedance cans, what they are I am not sure, someone else would have to suggest them for you. The tubes that I speak of are buried somewhere in these 73 pages.
  
  


verhulk said:


> Finally Powertube rolling can start!!!! Today I've received finally from vacuumtubes.net my:
> 
> 7236 Tung-Sol (NOS USA)
> 6080 Tung-Sol (NOS USA)
> ...


 
  
@Verhulk, I would try the Sylvania 6SN7GTB with the TungSol 7236 as my first go around if you haven't already got some tubes humming away. Those tubes look absolutely perfect though, I'm very tempted to snag the Sylvania 7236s I have had my eyes on. I dunno what it is about Sylvania, but I think I find them to be my favorite tubes. Which tubes did you get from the store that I can NEVER remember the name of lol. 
  


purpleangel said:


> So just ordered the RCA 6AS7G and GE 6SN7GTB, hopefully i will enjoy them as much as you do


 
  
@PurpleAngel, I feel like you've been in the DV game for awhile no? Either way the RCA 6AS7G is faaantastic. Great power tube, I won't let my ideas of the sound fill your head, please do come back and tell us your experience with them.
  
@atarione, how is that GE 6SN7GTB? I have not had the good grace to purchase that tube yet.


----------



## PurpleAngel

41venom14 said:


> @PurpleAngel, I feel like you've been in the DV game for awhile no? Either way the RCA 6AS7G is faaantastic. Great power tube, I won't let my ideas of the sound fill your head, please do come back and tell us your experience with them.


 
  
 Got the DV in August 2016 (5 months ago).
 Before that only tube head amps used was sub $100 Indeed brand.


----------



## 41Venom14

purpleangel said:


> Got the DV in August 2016 (5 months ago).
> Before that only tube head amps used was sub $100 Indeed brand.


 
  
 That's fantastic. What is your favorite headphone pairing and have you just started tube rolling??


----------



## PurpleAngel

41venom14 said:


> That's fantastic. What is your favorite headphone pairing and have you just started tube rolling??


 
  
 My Beyerdynamic T90 is my preferred headphone for all listening.
 The tubes I bought two hours ago (off eBay) is my first attempt at tube rolling.


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> @atarione, how is that GE 6SN7GTB? I have not had the good grace to purchase that tube yet.


 
  
  
 it is fine.. it is nothing to go nutz over however.. the RCA 6SN7GT I have is probably nicer sounding .. but the GE does fine also.. worth the $5 I spent on it.


----------



## Verhulk

> @Verhulk, I would try the Sylvania 6SN7GTB with the TungSol 7236 as my first go around if you haven't already got some tubes humming away. Those tubes look absolutely perfect though, I'm very tempted to snag the Sylvania 7236s I have had my eyes on. I dunno what it is about Sylvania, but I think I find them to be my favorite tubes. Which tubes did you get from the store that I can NEVER remember the name of lol.


 
 LOL thats the combination I've listened to the most yesterday evening. Very clear, but comfortable listening. A lot of dynamics and a good and balanced bass. Enjoyed the music so much that I didn't do enough A/B tests. But listening to music is what we're doing it for, aren't we?


----------



## deaconblues

I just got my Darkvoice 336SE from Massdrop yesterday.   I had to open it up and fix a disconnected solder joint at the headphone jack's ground.  It's working great now, but unfortunately I failed to pay attention to the orientation of the bottom panel.  Could someone please look at the underside of your amp and tell me whether the bottom panel's vent is towards the front or the back of the amp?
  
 I recently found my box of spare 6SN7s from the days when I had a Bada PH-12.
 Inside there were:
  
 6SN7 pulled from a Baldwin organ.  IIRC it's a Sylvania 6SN7GTB, but I could be wrong.  Warmer than stock tube.  No hum at all.  Ironically, I think this tube had some hum issues on the PH-12, which is why it ended up forgotten in a box.  I believe I had three more of these tubes before, which I sold together with the PH-12.
  
 6N8P - Chinese tube, identical to the stock tube that came with the Darkvoice.  I think I actually prefer the stock tube over the Baldwin organ tube.  It sounds cleaner.  Like the Baldwin tube, this tube did not have any hum.
  
 Electro Harmonix 6SN7, made in Russia - Ahhh, there's that hum that people were talking about.  I can't really say much about the tube's sound, because the hum was too annoying.
  
 Russian 6H8C (actually 6N8S written in Cyrillic) - All 6 of these tubes hummed.  Some louder than others, but all were pretty loud.
  
 I don't think I'm going to bother with the Fitz mod for now, since I have a couple of dead silent tubes.  I'll probably try to see if the Russian tubes respond to the burn-in trick some time though.  Has anyone else gotten the Russian tubes to behave without doing the Fitz mod?


----------



## PurpleAngel

deaconblues said:


> I just got my Darkvoice 336SE from Massdrop yesterday.   I had to open it up and fix a disconnected solder joint at the headphone jack's ground.  It's working great now, but unfortunately I failed to pay attention to the orientation of the bottom panel.  Could someone please look at the underside of your amp and tell me whether the bottom panel's vent is towards the front or the back of the amp?


 
  
 The vents are in the back, under the power supply.


----------



## UntilThen

deaconblues said:


> Russian 6H8C (actually 6N8S written in Cyrillic) - All 6 of these tubes hummed.  Some louder than others, but all were pretty loud.


 
 My 6H8C hums badly on DV too but they were silent on Elise.


----------



## Verhulk

> I don't think I'm going to bother with the Fitz mod for now, since I have a couple of dead silent tubes.  I'll probably try to see if the Russian tubes respond to the burn-in trick some time though.  Has anyone else gotten the Russian tubes to behave without doing the Fitz mod?


 
 I haven't done the Fitz mod. I have a Tung Sol Russian driver tube. Start was a huge hum. After burning in in this way the tube sounds great. It took about 7 days until the  Russian Tung Sol was really dead quiet. The sound is pretty good!


----------



## 41Venom14

Ohhhhhh Massdrop has the all black DT990s going on right now and I am just so tempted....@PurpleAngel, what do you think of the DT990s? I've watched a couple reviews on them and I'm very on the fence. I have the HD650 and I am completely addicted to them with the DV. I feel like any headphone I get right now that doesn't pair well with the DV won't get much attention. Looking at you Fostex TH-X00 PH.
  
 Tube Combo Tonight
 Kenrad VT-231 - Bendix 6080
  
 .....I think, I think I see where they stated the Kenrad VT-231 has the best bass....With that lively Bendix the Kenrad just opens up and its sooo impactful, precise, beautiful. 
  
@Verhulk, what combo you running tonight man? You got all these tubes at the same time, it's the worst isn't it?
  
@atarione, what headphones you got running with the DV again? 
  
 I also have the Russian tubes, but didn't dedicate enough time to them to remove the hum. Some tubes are worse than others for sure. Two Sylvania VT-231s, one hums kinda loud and the other is dead silent.


----------



## PurpleAngel

41venom14 said:


> Ohhhhhh Massdrop has the all black DT990s going on right now and I am just so tempted....@PurpleAngel, what do you think of the DT990s? I've watched a couple reviews on them and I'm very on the fence. I have the HD650 and I am completely addicted to them with the DV. I feel like any headphone I get right now that doesn't pair well with the DV won't get much attention. Looking at you Fostex TH-X00 PH.


 
  
 The DT990 600-Ohm has better bass control, then the 250-Ohm version.
 The DT990 should offer better surround sound then the HD650
 The DT990 has a strong bass/treble, which slightly over shadows the mids, but the mids are clear.
 From my understanding the HD650 are great music headphones, not sure the DT990 would offer anything better.


----------



## atarione

it is best to demo the DT990's if at all possible first before buying them... they have pretty massive amounts of treble .. they are not for me... I greatly prefer the DT880's


----------



## 41Venom14

purpleangel said:


> The DT990 600-Ohm has better bass control, then the 250-Ohm version.
> The DT990 should offer better surround sound then the HD650
> The DT990 has a strong bass/treble, which slightly over shadows the mids, but the mids are clear.
> From my understanding the HD650 are great music headphones, not sure the DT990 would offer anything better.


 
  
  


atarione said:


> it is best to demo the DT990's if at all possible first before buying them... they have pretty massive amounts of treble .. they are not for me... I greatly prefer the DT880's


 
  
@PurpleAngel and @atarione, thank you both for your input. I wouldn't say I am treble sensitive but the HD650s on my Jotenheim sure become quite fatiguing with just how high those vocals can reach. 
  
 Guess I am better off just sitting back and saving up for either the ZMF Ori, MrSpeakers Ether, or Audeze LCD-X or 2 or maybe even 3. I think the Ori's are on the must buy list and then its going to be an EXTREMELY difficult toss up between the Ethers and LCD options (probably the LCD-X). Naturally both of these options will not pair with the DV well, sigh, I feel like it is getting more difficult to find an amazing pair of high impedance headphones.
  
 The Sennheiser 800S is of course their flagship, but I don't think it is for me. I need to find a place that I can test out all these different headphones for sure.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

I can now say after owning my first tube amp The DV 336SE and the HD 650 if you think your headphones vocals are too high or shrill or there's not enough have or your getting high frequency fatigue. You can keep switching tube combinations until your ears hear what they desire making you think you have multiple sets of headphones. Out of my selection of new old stock tubes I've gotten lucky and only have three that have a light hum in them possibly because I have not burned them in long enough, all the rest were dead silent out of the box. I have noticed even the exact same tube from the same manufacture but just produced a few years apart can make a difference in their sound reproduction. Shown in my photo I have tubes that represent from 1941 JAN Army Navy to normal stock 1968 . Manufactured in America, Great Britain, Holland and Japan .


----------



## Verhulk

> @Verhulk, what combo you running tonight man? You got all these tubes at the same time, it's the worst isn't it?
> 
> @atarione, what headphones you got running with the DV again?
> 
> I also have the Russian tubes, but didn't dedicate enough time to them to remove the hum. Some tubes are worse than others for sure. Two Sylvania VT-231s, one hums kinda loud and the other is dead silent.


 
@41Venom14. Thank you! Today home office: listening to the Sylvania 6SN7GTB and The Tung-Sol 6080. Later this day I expect DHL to bring the Sennheiser HD650, in addition to the pretty basic Grado 225i and the AKG 240II Studio Monitors. The Grado isn't a great combination with the Darkvoice. The AKG is not bad, but I expect to have a better Headphone with the HD650, especially because the impedance is much higher. I'm sure this will be a huge upgrade.
  
 So indeed a lot of tuberolling possiblities, and headphone changes possible, LOL. This evening friends will stay for dinner, so I'm afraid that I'll have to wait with real listening untill tomorrow
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Verhulk

That's a nice assortment @ThermalAlchemy! Thank you for the picture. If my wife starts complaining (which she doesn't untill now) about all those tubes, I can show your picture


----------



## 41Venom14

verhulk said:


> @41Venom14. Thank you! Today home office: listening to the Sylvania 6SN7GTB and The Tung-Sol 6080. Later this day I expect DHL to bring the Sennheiser HD650, in addition to the pretty basic Grado 225i and the AKG 240II Studio Monitors. The Grado isn't a great combination with the Darkvoice. The AKG is not bad, but I expect to have a better Headphone with the HD650, especially because the impedance is much higher. I'm sure this will be a huge upgrade.
> 
> So indeed a lot of tuberolling possiblities, and headphone changes possible, LOL. This evening friends will stay for dinner, so I'm afraid that I'll have to wait with real listening untill tomorrow
> 
> Have fun!


 
  
 Oh @Verhulk, you are in for a treat when you get those HD650s, I had no idea you just snagged a pair, congratulations. I think, IMO, everyone should either have listened to or have a pair of 600 or 650s. Just that amazing step into the world of headphones. Ever since I've started tube rolling, I haven't wanted to touch my solid state at all or other headphones. Just rocking the HD650s and the tubes. 
  
 And I totally agree with @ThermalAlchemy, not only can you have a bunch of different headphones, you can have the same pair of headphones and make your AMP CHANGE! Its a glorious world we live in. I was pretty blown away last night with the Kenrad VT-231 + Bendix 6080 pairing. Warm, thrumming, precise, and the bass was magnificent. Better than the Sylvania VT231 + Sylvania 6080 combo I've been harping about as of last. Shame shame.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

41venom14 said:


> Oh @Verhulk
> , you are in for a treat when you get those HD650s, I had no idea you just snagged a pair, congratulations. I think, IMO, everyone should either have listened to or have a pair of 600 or 650s. Just that amazing step into the world of headphones. Ever since I've started tube rolling, I haven't wanted to touch my solid state at all or other headphones. Just rocking the HD650s and the tubes.
> 
> And I totally agree with @ThermalAlchemy
> , not only can you have a bunch of different headphones, you can have the same pair of headphones and make your AMP CHANGE! Its a glorious world we live in. I was pretty blown away last night with the Kenrad VT-231 + Bendix 6080 pairing. Warm, thrumming, precise, and the bass was magnificent. Better than the Sylvania VT231 + Sylvania 6080 combo I've been harping about as of last. Shame shame.




 As you noticed headphones are amplifier sensitive or vice versa depending on which way you're looking at it or in our case listening to it. There's modifications that are considered fairly simple for somebody with a little electronics and understanding of how the resistors ,capacitors and power source influence your sound and amount of base that can be reproduced by your headphones or speakers on high output amplifiers. It's not difficult and it's not expensive. The amount of money you invested in the few tubes you have already purchased would most likely equal or exceed what it takes to modify your amplifier and make it a stellar performer with any set up I headphones. But then it would take away from the set of headphones that are used to perform well with to change .


----------



## 41Venom14

So much yes, Sylvania 6CG7 Long Plate Copper Post Tube (1958).
  
 This is the kind of stuff that totally gets me geeked out, thank you @UntilThen.


----------



## UntilThen

41venom14 said:


> So much yes, Sylvania 6CG7 Long Plate Copper Post Tube (1958).
> 
> This is the kind of stuff that totally gets me geeked out, thank you @UntilThen.


 
 Nice. No hum?


----------



## Verhulk

> There's modifications that are considered fairly simple for somebody with a little electronics and understanding of how the resistors ,capacitors and power source influence your sound and amount of base that can be reproduced by your headphones or speakers on high output amplifiers. It's not difficult and it's not expensive.


 
@ThermalAlchemy what modifications do you mean? Sounds interesting!


----------



## Verhulk

41venom14 said:


> So much yes, Sylvania 6CG7 Long Plate Copper Post Tube (1958).
> 
> This is the kind of stuff that totally gets me geeked out, thank you @UntilThen.


 
 Looks great @41Venom14. Would like to hear them! For me its clear that the best combination which I have now is the Sylvania 6SN&GTB and the Tung Sol 7236. What affordable tubes would be an improvement? Or would a cheap modification as @ThermalAlchemy suggests be better.
  
 Or just be happy as my Darkvoice sounds now. Its really great, never expected to have such a great sound from this Tube Amp!


----------



## 41Venom14

untilthen said:


> Nice. No hum?


 
  
 There is a very very slight hum, but it's so minor that it disappears the first second music is playing. Love it, the tube sounded great actually, I was very impressed. 
  


verhulk said:


> Looks great @41Venom14. Would like to hear them! For me its clear that the best combination which I have now is the Sylvania 6SN&GTB and the Tung Sol 7236. What affordable tubes would be an improvement? Or would a cheap modification as @ThermalAlchemy suggests be better.
> 
> Or just be happy as my Darkvoice sounds now. Its really great, never expected to have such a great sound from this Tube Amp!


 
  
@Verhulk, I mean honestly what harm could more tubes have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 lol. How are those HD650s + DV treating you man? I am awaiting a Sylvania 6SN7 Chrome Dome. The getter flash coated the entirety of the tube, it's absolutely beautiful.
  
 Ebay gave me a $10 off coupon, gotta use by 01/19, what tube should I buy?! Lol.  
  
 AAHHH too late, I've been eyeing up these NOS Sylvania 7236s for a very long time, so I pulled the trigger. Should be getting the Sylvania 6SNGTA Chrome Dome tomorrow, can't wait to pair it with the Sylvania 7236.


----------



## Verhulk

I'm very, very happy with the combination of the Darkvoice and the Sennheiser HD 650. This combination as awesome! Would like to hear if the Sylvania 6SNGTA Chrome Dome is really better with a 7236 Sylvania instead of the Tung Sol 7236 or a Bendix 6080


----------



## 41Venom14

verhulk said:


> I'm very, very happy with the combination of the Darkvoice and the Sennheiser HD 650. This combination as awesome! Would like to hear if the Sylvania 6SNGTA Chrome Dome is really better with a 7236 Sylvania instead of the Tung Sol 7236 or a Bendix 6080


 
  
 Seriously, I am having struggles trying to find a better pairing of headphones with this amp. It loves high impedance, only other headphones that could be magical would be the flagship Senns or Beyerdynamics. Pretty much, no planar with the DV, only dynamic drivers and I'm half tempted to look into the HD800s just so I could pair it with the DV, but then maybe look into the WA22...uses the same exact tubes...or the Elise like UT has.
  
 I wish the TungSol 5998 were not so damn expensive. 
  
@Verhulk, I have not seen pictures yet of these tubes?! Or maybe I have...I'll post a pic tonight of the Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome, should be just waiting for me till I get home.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I have a feeling the new zmf eikon and Atticus are going to pair VERY well with the DV. In fact I will know within a couple weeks hopefully.


----------



## 41Venom14

doctacosmos said:


> I have a feeling the new zmf eikon and Atticus are going to pair VERY well with the DV. In fact I will know within a couple weeks hopefully.


 
  
@DoctaCosmos, Please do keep me informed on this. I'm looking at the ZMF Ori, but if the Eikon or Atticus perform better (considering the Ori is just a modded T50 with 32ohms) then I may snag one or the other.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

It's already very well known that the new dynamic drivers out perform the t50modded cans. Also, I'm hooked on the otl sound and considering these headphones were made with tubes in mind I'm pretty sure it'll be a better match with the darkvoice than the ori. Now I just need to find a pin otl speaker amp that's as budget friendly as the DV. If they even make the, anyways.


----------



## PurpleAngel

My first tube rolling with the 336SE, sounds good, but I liked the glow pattern of the stock tubes better.


----------



## nereus

41venom14 said:


> @DoctaCosmos, Please do keep me informed on this. I'm looking at the ZMF Ori, but if the Eikon or Atticus perform better (considering the Ori is just a modded T50 with 32ohms) then I may snag one or the other.


 
 The otho's I've tried on the DV didn't sound quite right - T40RP, T50RP-Mayflower and the HE-400i. Everything else sounds like it should - HD650, SHP9500, AKG K-141.


----------



## 41Venom14

nereus said:


> The otho's I've tried on the DV didn't sound quite right - T40RP, T50RP-Mayflower and the HE-400i. Everything else sounds like it should - HD650, SHP9500, AKG K-141.


 
  
 Yeah I found that the T50s and Th-X00s sound like garbage on the DV. Low impedance headphones lose all of that low end that is so important to quantify warmth in my opinion. 
  
  


purpleangel said:


> My first tube rolling with the 336SE, sounds good, but I liked the glow pattern of the stock tubes better.


 
  
 Looking good @PurpleAngel, I agree the toughest part of tubes is finding a pair that glows beautiful (and sound good doing it). Honestly, the best glowing tube I've found so far is the TungSol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears, the mouse ears reflect the heating elements so the entire tube lights up. I'll try and get a picture tomorrow as my tubes are rolling right now and I do not feel like swapping them out. 
 Rocking that Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome + Bendix 6080 Combo, cannot wait for my Sylvania 7236 to come. 
  
 I promised pics of the (not full tube getter flash but close) Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome and will post a pic of the Mouse Ears that I happen to have.
  
 Sylvania 6SN7 Chrome Dome + Bendix 6080

  
  
  
  
  
 TungSol 6SN7 Mouse Ears + RCA 6AS7G


----------



## nereus

41venom14 said:


> TungSol 6SN7 Mouse Ears + RCA 6AS7G


 
 That's really cool. I've always wanted to try a tung-sol but have always been too worried about the hum.


----------



## 41Venom14

nereus said:


> That's really cool. I've always wanted to try a tung-sol but have always been too worried about the hum.


 
  
 Only the new re-issue TungSol made in Russia is known to have a significant hum that can be removed after a long period of burn in.
  
 I believe @Verhulk, can chime in here as he has that tube and can confirm this.
  
 The other TungSols that I do have, if they hum, its not very loudly. I will swap in the mouse ears tomorrow and confirm this as well, but TungSol (as long as it was made in the US) will more than likely not hum for you and if it does, a bit of burn it never hurt anyone


----------



## nereus

41venom14 said:


> Only the new re-issue TungSol made in Russia is known to have a significant hum that can be removed after a long period of burn in.
> 
> I believe @Verhulk, can chime in here as he has that tube and can confirm this.
> 
> The other TungSols that I do have, if they hum, its not very loudly. I will swap in the mouse ears tomorrow and confirm this as well, but TungSol (as long as it was made in the US) will more than likely not hum for you and if it does, a bit of burn it never hurt anyone


 
 Good to know, thanks. Anything locally I've found have been the Russian ones, but I'll keep an eye out.


----------



## 41Venom14

nereus said:


> Good to know, thanks. Anything locally I've found have been the Russian ones, but I'll keep an eye out.


 
  
 Ebay is your friend mate.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-Tung-Sol-6SN7GTB-vacuum-tube-tested-good-/122312917206?hash=item1c7a6b00d6:g~4AAOSwdIFX1YQb
  
 And also of course before you buy any tubes, read through the 6SN7 Reference thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## 41Venom14

Also, thanks to @DoctaCosmos, I ordered the ZMF Eikon + Atticus. I was on the fence, but I found the ZMF thread and I just **** it. I was gonna snag the Oris, but I need something that pairs with the DV and at 300ohms, these will do just fine. I also couldn't let the 10% sale go for purchasing both, so I get a pair and probably my gf does as well lol.


----------



## nereus

Yeah I think I've read that whole thread back and forth a few times hehe. I bought my Sylvania from referencing that thread. Love them. 
 A bit reluctant to get tubes shipped over from the US to AUS.


----------



## 41Venom14

Haha, oh yeah I totally understand that. Keep us updated if you happen to grab any tubes. Kenrad VT-231 is one of my favorite tubes at the moment. The reference thread said they had the best bass, I doubted them, I was wrong, poor me lol.


----------



## nereus

I would love a Ken as well - a bit out of my price range just now.


----------



## gunwale

Just wondering, can I use dark voice 336se as a pre-amp into http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/m03.html?
  
 I am not very familiar with the setup but I am guessing laptop(max)->dac (max)->pre amp (max)-> amp (volume control)
  
 or should I control the volume at pre amp level?
  
 thanks in advance.
  
 circuit pictures can be found here (http://www.hdfever.fr/2015/08/14/test-kingsound-m-03/)


----------



## UntilThen

gunwale said:


> Just wondering, can I use dark voice 336se as a pre-amp into http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/m03.html?
> 
> I am not very familiar with the setup but I am guessing laptop(max)->dac (max)->pre amp (max)-> amp (volume control)
> 
> ...


 
 You can. Nothing to stop you. I've used DV as preamp into Elise and vice-versa. Volume is controlled at the amp.


----------



## gunwale

untilthen said:


> You can. Nothing to stop you. I've used DV as preamp into Elise and vice-versa. Volume is controlled at the amp.


 
  
 did you max your DV?
  
 I don't know much about circuits (volt, amp, impedance and etc) so I hope not to blow anything up.


----------



## UntilThen

gunwale said:


> did you max your DV?
> 
> I don't know much about circuits (volt, amp, impedance and etc) so I hope not to blow anything up.


 
 Nope. Here's the funny part. Initially I could increase volume by adjusting both DV and Elise volume knob. A few hours into usage, DV's volume knob becomes redundant. Only the amp's volume knob is in control.
  
 You won't blow anything by using DV as a preamp. It's designed with preamp out and will function as a preamp. Same goes for Elise.


----------



## gvl2016

About USA made Tung-Sol and hum. Just received a TS 6SN7GTB, left channel hum is unbearable the worst I heard. Skeptical any amount of burn in will tame it down it is so bad but will try.
  
 Another fail, someone just sold me bad RCA 6AS7G or so it seems, have no power to drive my 32Ohm cans, distortion at any but the lowest level, badly unbalanced between channels, lotsa blue glow, blue not purple at least, suspect that burning them in isn't going to help. Sigh.


----------



## LeQwasd

Can you post a pic of the blue valve?


----------



## gvl2016

Here you go. Would be very cool if it also worked.


----------



## gvl2016

gunwale said:


> Just wondering, can I use dark voice 336se as a pre-amp into http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/m03.html?
> 
> I am not very familiar with the setup but I am guessing laptop(max)->dac (max)->pre amp (max)-> amp (volume control)
> 
> ...


 
  
 I use it as a pre-amp with a Yamaha power-amp separate into speakers, but when DV's volume pot is at 11 o'clock the whole thing is already unbearably loud, and that is with the power amp adjustment pots set pretty much at the minimum. DV may have too much gain for some amps.


----------



## gunwale

gvl2016 said:


> I use it as a pre-amp with a Yamaha power-amp separate into speakers, but when DV's volume pot is at 11 o'clock the whole thing is already unbearably loud, and that is with the power amp adjustment pots set pretty much at the minimum. DV may have too much gain for some amps.


 
 do you still get the dv sound signature while using it as a pre amp?


----------



## gvl2016

gunwale said:


> do you still get the dv sound signature while using it as a pre amp?


 
  
 Pretty much, tube coloration is far from subtle. I couldn't find any schematics but seems the line-out is just in parallel with the headphone out or perhaps there is a simple voltage divider. I would have preferred they took it after the 6SN7 tube.


----------



## 41Venom14

Wow, @gvl2016, thats so gorgeous even if it is broken.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

gvl2016 said:


> Here you go. Would be very cool if it also worked.


 did you buy it from eBay or a tube vendor? Has a return policy or stated it was good or tested?. There should be a page devoted by members of tube vendors who sell good or repeated bad tubes to Head-Fi , there names and web address and or eBay name should be added as naughty or nice . So other members blacklist the bad ones and don't fall into their trap.


----------



## Verhulk

41venom14 said:


> Only the new re-issue TungSol made in Russia is known to have a significant hum that can be removed after a long period of burn in.
> 
> I believe @Verhulk, can chime in here as he has that tube and can confirm this.
> 
> The other TungSols that I do have, if they hum, its not very loudly. I will swap in the mouse ears tomorrow and confirm this as well, but TungSol (as long as it was made in the US) will more than likely not hum for you and if it does, a bit of burn it never hurt anyone


 

 Indeed @nereus, the burning in time with the Russian Tung-Sol was about a week. Now its dead quiet. In 2 ways: it doesn't hum anymore, but I don't use it anymore as well. The Sylvania Chrome head is so much better. The Tung-Sol was already a big improvement compared to the standard Tube, but the Sylvania is about the same improvement. You've just started a new hobby, named tuberolling


----------



## gvl2016

Is there a scientific explanation for the hum going away with burn-in? I can see why the sonics could improve as microscopic changes/erosion to the surface of the cathode from heat can cause better electron emission, but how does it affect hum?


----------



## gvl2016

thermalalchemy said:


> did you buy it from eBay or a tube vendor? Has a return policy or stated it was good or tested?. There should be a page devoted by members of tube vendors who sell good or repeated bad tubes to Head-Fi , there names and web address and or eBay name should be added as naughty or nice . So other members blacklist the bad ones and don't fall into their trap.


 
  
 eBay, no specific return policy stated but I'm working with the seller to return and he's understanding. I don't want to unnecessarily flag anyone especially if the issue can be amicably resolved, s**t happens.


----------



## UntilThen

verhulk said:


> Indeed @nereus, the burning in time with the Russian Tung-Sol was about a week. Now its dead quiet. In 2 ways: it doesn't hum anymore, but I don't use it anymore as well. The Sylvania Chrome head is so much better. The Tung-Sol was already a big improvement compared to the standard Tube, but the Sylvania is about the same improvement. *You've just started a new hobby, named tuberolling *


 
  
 Welcome to tuberolling   You're not the first and you will not be the last.


----------



## UntilThen

gvl2016 said:


> Is there a scientific explanation for the hum going away with burn-in? I can see why the sonics could improve as microscopic changes/erosion to the surface of the cathode from heat can cause better electron emission, but how does it affect hum?


 
  
 No scientific explanations but I did have some initial humming tubes that no longer hum now on DV after I have used them for many hours in another amp (Elise).


----------



## gvl2016

untilthen said:


> No scientific explanations but I did have some initial humming tubes that no longer hum now on DV after I have used them for many hours in another amp (Elise).


 
  
 I've experienced it myself with the sock tubes. I guess the hum can be of electromagentic or electrostatic nature but no idea how burning the tubes in can affect either.


----------



## Verhulk

gvl2016 said:


> About USA made Tung-Sol and hum. Just received a TS 6SN7GTB, left channel hum is unbearable the worst I heard. Skeptical any amount of burn in will tame it down it is so bad but will try.
> 
> Another fail, someone just sold me bad RCA 6AS7G or so it seems, have no power to drive my 32Ohm cans, distortion at any but the lowest level, badly unbalanced between channels, lotsa blue glow, blue not purple at least, suspect that burning them in isn't going to help. Sigh.


 

 Just give it some more time. At first I thought the same with my Russian Tung Sol. After 4 days there was still no improvement. But after 4 days it became better and better.
  
 It's correct that a Headphone with only 32 Ohm is not the best combination. I've had the samen. Now I have the Sennheiser HD650, and it is way better! Nog only because of the better cans, but the combination is great!


----------



## gvl2016

I found DV works nicely with my Philips SHP9500s even if there is a slight low frequency response loss, but NAD Viso HP50s I also have sound meh, both are 32Ohm headphones.


----------



## vloh

Hi All,
  
 I have recently purchase a Massdrop DV336SEOTL. I would like to find out which tube should I buy to match or top what I am using now. I have a Bravo Audio V2 with Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 Tube with MSUR N650.
  
 VL.


----------



## 41Venom14

Hello DV fam, hope all is going well. 
  
 After rolling with the KenRad VT-231 + Sylvania 7236, I felt it was a bit too cold almost. Too SS feeling somehow. So I reverted back to my warm Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 6080 combo. This seems to be my most favored tube combo. The music just feels warm even on cold days.
  
 I am jelly of @DoctaCosmos for getting the Eikon, do tell how that pairs with the DV if you would be so kind.
  
 I ordered the Atticus and Eikon, but don't expect to get them until March since I am way way down on the list unfortunately. 
  
 Any new tube combos you guys been running? Any modifications?


----------



## TYATYA

After digging this 4room my choice is


----------



## TYATYA

My DV with stock tube 6N5PJ, 6N8P which are crappy


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Still running stock tubes. They worked ok with the wife's headphone but the Eikon is too much headphone for it. Afraid of getting tubes off the thread thinking there are people hussling trying to get rid of crap they don't like or are getting old or a ton of stock. Planning on going to my local -ish speaker shop and taking it with me and trying some eventually. What the DV does do for the Eikon is open it up a bit though. A little too much in the mids but the highs and bass are nice.


----------



## gvl2016

My favorite budget combo so far is a run off the mill Sylvania 6SN7 tall bottle with chrome top/RCA 6AS7 military spec (JAN) from WWII period. There are probably better tubes (read more expensive) out there but these sound great. I'm mostly using DV as pre-amp currently into a vintage Yamaha MX-600U amp driving JBL L100 Centurys, I like. I gave up on stock tubes, the 6SN7 is too grainy and the big one is too dull. I've experimented with some other cheapo US made old tubes, I wasn't happy with some of them but they all sounded better than the stock ones.


----------



## TYATYA

verhulk said:


> Just give it some more time. At first I thought the same with my Russian Tung Sol. After 4 days there was still no improvement. But after 4 days it became better and better.
> 
> It's correct that a Headphone with only 32 Ohm is not the best combination. I've had the samen. Now I have the Sennheiser HD650, and it is way better! Nog only because of the better cans, but the combination is great!




Yes burning in is need for both electrical part and non-electric parts.
With stock tubes I found no problem with hp impedance with both low (denon D2000) and high (Sen' hd650) but with B.A iem it seems a big matter. Nuforce HEM4 is a less than a crappy when driven by DV (stock).
Waiting for a Tungsol JAN 5998 and Sylva 6SN7GT to arrival. Hope it suit for hd650 as heard in topic


----------



## 41Venom14

@TYATYA, oh that Sylvania VT-231 is by far one of my favorite tubes. I don't know what it is exactly about the tube, but it just makes the music warm. The bass is sometimes over extended, but I find it so lush. The HD650s are phenomenal on the DV. It makes them "better" in my opinion. It tones down the highs a bit and makes the bass punchy (with the right set of tubes of course).
 Also, in my experience I have seen the low impedance headphones lose their bass almost entirely. Trying to run the TH-X00 on the DV was just a terrible combo. The sub bass that they are known for absolutely disappeared.
  
@DoctaCosmos, gotta change that "Awaiting ZMF Eikons!" haha. The reason why I purchased the Atticus and Eikons was because they were the only dynamic driver that work on tubes that I would want. The other option was the HD800S, but something about it, just didn't have any interest in it. Also tempted to snag the LCD-X, but again, low ohms so not great on the DV. I am very curious to hear the Eikons in general, but cannot wait to stack them up on the DV and start tube swapping. Although the WA22....god its beautiful and uses the same tubes as the DV.
 As for snagging new tubes, just go to Ebay, NOS 6SN7 tubes and you'll get the fresh tubes to go with your Eikons, I'd be very curious to hear your impressions since I can't get my Eikon for another month and a half 
  
 Hope everyone has a great Sunday (its the Superbowl if anyone is watching).


----------



## rudra

I am curious to hear from Eikon owners if they have tried the HP with other OTL amps. The reason I ask is, to me the DV's bass seems bloated  even with good tubes(Tungsol 5998 & Tungsol VT231 BGRP) when compared to my Little Dot MKVI+. On the other hand maybe I shouldn't be comparing a $250 amp with a $850.  I have tried lot of different tube combinations with DV just doesn't have the finesse compared to the LD. That is not to say that the DV is bad.


----------



## TYATYA

@41Venom14 I read 4room and base on comments of users whose DV and Hd650 combo.
Hope a good experience will comes when those tube arrival.
Borrowing a Sylva 5692 brown base, top chrome glass. 
Dont know it match to DV or smoke and bad smell when test 
But looking it match to socket


----------



## rudra

5692 will work fine on the DV.  Out of interest what power tube are you using with the Slyvania 5692


----------



## TYATYA

rudra said:


> 5692 will work fine on the DV.  Out of interest what power tube are you using with the Slyvania 5692




Yeahhh it works, 5692 Sylva. Bass is now more impact and speed, response lower freq and with gain a bit, suit for hd650. Mid is alive much more than stock goods.
Power tube is still stock. Will borrow untill my obtain ordered tubes


----------



## svmusa

Any thoughts on using 336SE purely as a preamp for stereo listening? few front and back tube combination in preamp would be highly appreciated.
  
 Music would be mostly instrumental, Jazz, fusion and some vocals mix. I love tube sound and lean on good bass impact, the gear is modest, SMSL M8 DAC and the preamp will be feeding a Monoprice 11497 300 Watts 2 Channel Amplifier to a pair BIC RTR-EV15 Floor Speaker with High-Efficienc​y Horn Tweeter.


----------



## gvl2016

svmusa said:


> Any thoughts on using 336SE purely as a preamp for stereo listening? few front and back tube combination in preamp would be highly appreciated.
> 
> Music would be mostly instrumental, Jazz, fusion and some vocals mix. I love tube sound and lean on good bass impact, the gear is modest, SMSL M8 DAC and the preamp will be feeding a Monoprice 11497 300 Watts 2 Channel Amplifier to a pair BIC RTR-EV15 Floor Speaker with High-Efficienc​y Horn Tweeter.


 
  
 I'm using it as a pre-amp with good results. There is some audible hum even with pretty much all tubes I tried, but not detectable when the music is playing.The Fitz mod should help but I haven't tried it yet. As for tube combination, you really need to try and see for yourself as it is all very system and ear dependent. I haven' t tried any exotic tubes but and my favorite inexpensive combos so far, grey glass WWII era military RCA 6SN7GT/GE6080, and Sylvania chrome-top tall bottle 6SN7/RCA 6AS7 (JAN- military spec). Generally you want to pair a bright and a warm sounding tubes together, from my experience bright-bright and warm-warm pairs are too extreme combination. I found tube sockets are crap, and there is a good amount of very loud popping and scratching noises every now and then with some older tubes, rocking the tubes back and forth usually helps for some time as does cleaning the pins with very fine sandpaper, followed by cleaning with 97% ISO alcohol and finally deoxit applied.
  
 If you don't plan to use it with headphones you can have a look at Schiit Saga instead, it is more expensive but it has a remote control and only one tube to roll.
  
 Anyone has any thoughts if taking the line-out after the first tube may yield some benefits? There should be less gain which would work great in my case as the output is already too hot for my power amp.


----------



## svmusa

gvl2016 said:


> I'm using it as a pre-amp with good results. There is some audible hum even with pretty much all tubes I tried, but not detectable when the music is playing.The Fitz mod should help but I haven't tried it yet. As for tube combination, you really need to try and see for yourself as it is all very system and ear dependent. I haven' t tried any exotic tubes but and my favorite inexpensive combos so far, grey glass WWII era military RCA 6SN7GT/GE6080, and Sylvania chrome-top tall bottle 6SN7/RCA 6AS7 (JAN- military spec). Generally you want to pair a bright and a warm sounding tubes together, from my experience bright-bright and warm-warm pairs are too extreme combination. I found tube sockets are crap, and there is a good amount of very loud popping and scratching noises every now and then with some older tubes, rocking the tubes back and forth usually helps for some time as does cleaning the pins with very fine sandpaper, followed by cleaning with 97% ISO alcohol and finally deoxit applied.
> 
> If you don't plan to use it with headphones you can have a look at Schiit Saga instead, it is more expensive but it has a remote control and only one tube to roll.
> 
> Anyone has any thoughts if taking the line-out after the first tube may yield some benefits? There should be less gain which would work great in my case as the output is already too hot for my power amp.


 
 Very helpful information, I am not keen on headphones and am looking at Ember 2 and Saga. NOS tube changing in Saga seems not that impact full on sound signature is my quick read perhaps done by intent in the design and  Ember 2 seems a good candidate but little more pricey. Tube rolling with one type is more affordable in all essence.


----------



## gvl2016

Yes, from the reviews my understanding is there very little tube effect in Saga, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, also tube rolling is addictive and can be spendy


----------



## atarione

svmusa said:


> Any thoughts on using 336SE purely as a preamp for stereo listening? few front and back tube combination in preamp would be highly appreciated.
> 
> Music would be mostly instrumental, Jazz, fusion and some vocals mix. I love tube sound and lean on good bass impact, the gear is modest, SMSL M8 DAC and the preamp will be feeding a Monoprice 11497 300 Watts 2 Channel Amplifier to a pair BIC RTR-EV15 Floor Speaker with High-Efficienc​y Horn Tweeter.


 
  
  
 I have been using my DV336 quite a lot as a Pre for my Sony TA-N77ES power amp..w/ JBL L1 speakers.. I don't have any noticeable hum in my setup with headphones or when using it as a pre.    I have been quite pleased with the DV as a preamp for the Sony.    I have been running RCA 6SN7GT and GE 6AS7GA tubes with mine for most of this time.


----------



## gvl2016

I'm using it with a Yamaha MX-600/JBL L100s, while the hum is mostly a non-issue it is definitely there and detectable by swithing the speaker swtich on/off, Yamaha seems to be pretty sensitive and L100 are efficient, both of which may aggravate the effect, I have attenuator pots turned down all the way, and with volume only at 11 o'clock on the DV the sound is very loud when listening from a 2VRMS DAC.


----------



## 41Venom14

Here is a good question. 
  
 I just snagged the Beyerdynamic DT 1990s and I cannot really tell much difference using different tube combos compared to when I was running the HD650s. Does anyone else have this experience as well, particularly with the 1990s?
  
 I may just need more time with them to really peel apart their sound signature, either way they sound ******* incredible.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Question, are they fresh out of the box?, or did they have 100+ hours of some hard use? I did notice my HD650 laked BASS when I first used them. I let my three sons use them for a week with my DV. One son  used them for gaming from 12am to 7am every morning for a week. When I got them back (they really opened up with sound stage and BASS)


----------



## windcar

thermalalchemy said:


> Question, are they fresh out of the box?, or did they have 100+ hours of some hard use? I did notice my HD650 laked BASS when I first used them. I let my three sons use them for a week with my DV. One son  used them for gaming from 12am to 7am every morning for a week. When I got them back (they really opened up with sound stage and BASS)


 
 If you find your Darkvoice lack bass, do these:
 1. Change your power cord to something thicker. The original power cord that comes with it is a lousy thin piece of S*. This amp is using standard PC power supply power cord so this should be easy to find.
 2. Change your 6SN7 to some thing like RCA 6SN7 GTB, or SYLVANIA short bottle 7N7 1960s. These are relatively inexpensive on ebay. With 7N7 tubes, you will need a converter like this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1Piece-7N7-TO-6SN7-Convert-Tube-Socket-DIY-Audio-Vacuum-Tube-Adapter-Socket-Converter-Free-Shipping/32616236426.html
 Those are the 2 tubes I have that have increased Bass, with the RCA having slightly more BASS.
 Head towards http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread to check out various tubes' characteristics, which I find rather accurate.


----------



## 41Venom14

thermalalchemy said:


> Question, are they fresh out of the box?, or did they have 100+ hours of some hard use? I did notice my HD650 laked BASS when I first used them. I let my three sons use them for a week with my DV. One son  used them for gaming from 12am to 7am every morning for a week. When I got them back (they really opened up with sound stage and BASS)


 
  
 The DT 1990s are quite new, probably around 30 to 40 hours on them at this point. You are right, it may just require some burn in time. The DT 1990 is also a 250 ohm, the DV does not have any issue running them even though its getting near that lower impedance that the DV seems to not tolerate very well (aka no bass), but the DT 1990s have great bass on the DV when compared to the Jotenheim solid state, so no issues there.
  
 As for the HD650s, I've had them for 6 months of heavy use, probably at least 1 - 3 hours a day. Swapping out tubes is always so good on the HD650s. Every tube sounds different, its phenomenal. I just want to see if I can tweak my DT 1990s like I can tweak my HD650s to sound just like I want.
  
  


windcar said:


> If you find your Darkvoice lack bass, do these:
> 1. Change your power cord to something thicker. The original power cord that comes with it is a lousy thin piece of S*. This amp is using standard PC power supply power cord so this should be easy to find.
> 2. Change your 6SN7 to some thing like RCA 6SN7 GTB, or SYLVANIA short bottle 7N7 1960s. These are relatively inexpensive on ebay. With 7N7 tubes, you will need a converter like this:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1Piece-7N7-TO-6SN7-Convert-Tube-Socket-DIY-Audio-Vacuum-Tube-Adapter-Socket-Converter-Free-Shipping/32616236426.html
> ...


 
  
 I have changed my power cord and have quite a collection of 6SN7s, 6AS7Gs and 6080s.
  
 With the HD650s, I found the Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 6080 to have the most delicious bass. Warm and dripping, with slight extension.
  
 That same combo does not have that effect on the DT 1990s, I swapped a couple different tube combos and I personally cannot really tell the difference.
  
 I think with more hours under my belt on how it sounds will help me decipher the differences. I should probably run them strictly from my Jotenheim until I really learn the SS sound, this is an idea I didn't have until just now so bear with me lol.


----------



## gvl2016

41venom14 said:


> Here is a good question.
> 
> I just snagged the Beyerdynamic DT 1990s and I cannot really tell much difference using different tube combos compared to when I was running the HD650s. Does anyone else have this experience as well, particularly with the 1990s?
> 
> I may just need more time with them to really peel apart their sound signature, either way they sound ******* incredible.


 
  
 Could it be because they are slightly lower impedance than the 650s? (300 vs. 250 Ohm).


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## 41Venom14

gvl2016 said:


> Could it be because they are slightly lower impedance than the 650s? (300 vs. 250 Ohm).


 
  
 Honestly, I have no clue. I can't imagine 50 ohms being that dramatic of a pitfall. The bass is good, the sound is fantastic, I just can't seem to hear much change when I swap tubes. 
  
 Just to clarify, I am not saying the DT 1990 sounds bad on the DV. No not at all, they sound incredibly good.I feel the DT 1990s are slightly better than the HD650s in...honestly...in every way, I am thoroughly impressed. I just can't tell much of a sound change from tube combo to tube combo.
  
 I appreciate all the input of ideas, keep em coming, maybe my ears just aren't that great for being 23 and listening to my music maybe a touch to loud and a touch too long lol.


----------



## windcar

41venom14 said:


> I have changed my power cord and have quite a collection of 6SN7s, 6AS7Gs and 6080s.
> 
> With the HD650s, I found the Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 6080 to have the most delicious bass. Warm and dripping, with slight extension.


 
  
 Do you find the DV running very hot with 6080s? I had a Chinese tube 6080 and 2 RCA 6080. First the Chinese tube died on me after just a couple of hours of usage. I saw a spark on the inside of the tube and then the right channel no longer have sound. Using the RCA, DV starts emitting a smell similar to a very hot laundry iron just after a couple of minutes of usage. Suffice to say I now stick to regular 6AS7.
 I am using the 230V version.


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## gvl2016

I do find the amp runs somewhat hotter with 6080s which I attribute to its more compact bottle and heater being closer to the case and less heat dissipation through glass and more through the socket/case. The amp is hot but I can still hold my hand on the top plate and no smell. Electrically they are the same as 6AS7 I think. If yours is abnormally hot it could be due to a gassy tube, they are bad for your amp as they draw more current.


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## ThermalAlchemy

gvl2016 said:


> I do find the amp runs somewhat hotter with 6080s which I attribute to its more compact bottle and heater being closer to the case and less heat dissipation through glass and more through the socket/case. The amp is hot but I can still hold my hand on the top plate and no smell. Electrically they are the same as 6AS7 I think. If yours is abnormally hot it could be due to a gassy tube, they are bad for your amp as they draw more current.



 This is a 1958 RCA 6AS7 running at 274° As seen on the infrared camera consuming 61 W Power 

 At the time of testing I had some hard dance music with the input volume turned all the way up and the dark voice volume turned all the way up running my HD 650s .
My voltage reference is filtered and protected running through isolated transformers. My power filtering is provided by monster series signature AVS 2000. And my monster power signature series HTPS 7000 .
 My 6SN7 is a TUNG-SOL GT , i'll perform the same test using the RCA 6080 will probably have near identical results I've noticed power consumption never really changes unless less you had their original Chinese tubes that Drew 53 W of power when using the Chinese 6AS7 .


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## ThermalAlchemy

1961 RCA 6080 temperature 305° but of course in a smaller package with less Glass surface area to dissipate heat in closer proximity to the heat source you would normally have a higher temperature . Power consumption is roughly the same 60.4 W


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

No matter what tubes a test from the 1940s to the 1960s the dark voice always draws roughly 60 W right on the money . This class A amplifier whether I have the music off or full blast barely makes a few tenths of a difference of current draw . As for using infrared camera temperature or the older style infrared with the laser pointer is not actually in accurate method to take tube temperature due to the fact that glass is one of the few substances infrared does not take A accurate temperature of with the curvature of the glass and whether it has a coating on the inside will throw the temperature reading off the only method to truly taking the temperature of clear glass is with a contact thermistor or thermal coupler. 

 As for the current draw in watts or amps of my reference power center it never moved off 0.8 A no matter what tube combination I threw inside the dark voice .


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## 41Venom14

windcar said:


> Do you find the DV running very hot with 6080s? I had a Chinese tube 6080 and 2 RCA 6080. First the Chinese tube died on me after just a couple of hours of usage. I saw a spark on the inside of the tube and then the right channel no longer have sound. Using the RCA, DV starts emitting a smell similar to a very hot laundry iron just after a couple of minutes of usage. Suffice to say I now stick to regular 6AS7.
> I am using the 230V version.


 
  
@ThermalAlchemy, well that was fantastic, thank you for taking the time and breaking out the big guns to answer the question with exactness.
  
 You've got a difference of 26 degrees F (those readings are in F right? I cant imagine they would be in Celsius) of 6AS7G vs 6080 by TA's readings. I never worried much about the additional heat from the smaller bottle and I've noticed some tubes get that (to me amazing) smell that says to me its NOS because only my NOS 6080s have gotten that smell.
  
 I feel the 6080s pack a wonderful punch and until I get the TungSol 5998, the 6080s are my go too. I've always found the RCA 6AS7G to be quite neutral, almost bright and that doesn't get me all warm and fuzzy haha.


----------



## Oskari

windcar said:


> Do you find the DV running very hot with 6080s? I had a Chinese tube 6080 and 2 RCA 6080. First the Chinese tube died on me after just a couple of hours of usage. I saw a spark on the inside of the tube and then the right channel no longer have sound. Using the RCA, DV starts emitting a smell similar to a very hot laundry iron just after a couple of minutes of usage. Suffice to say I now stick to regular 6AS7.
> I am using the 230V version.







41venom14 said:


> ... I never worried much about the additional heat from the smaller bottle and I've noticed some tubes get that (to me amazing) smell that says to me its NOS because only my NOS 6080s have gotten that smell. ...




Yes, I agree that the smell likely comes from the 6080. The smell will pass but it may take surprisingly long.


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## gvl2016

I clean tubes I receive with ISO alcohol, wipe glass and socket. Never had big smell after. There can be an oily film of dirt on the surface from years in storage and it can smell when the tube heats up until it burns off.


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## atarione

gvl2016 said:


> I clean tubes I receive with ISO alcohol, wipe glass and socket. Never had big smell after. There can be an oily film of dirt on the surface from years in storage and it can smell when the tube heats up until it burns off.


 

 mmm... old dusty (probably asbestos ) smell... yum..
  
 you haven't had any issues with printing coming off when cleaning with the ISO?  .. j


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## gvl2016

atarione said:


> mmm... old dusty (probably asbestos ) smell... yum..
> 
> you haven't had any issues with printing coming off when cleaning with the ISO?  .. j


 
  
 No, printing is usually insoluble by ISO, but suppose you can get it off if you rub long enough


----------



## tej789

I originally posted this in the other tuberolling thread but since I found this part 2 I decided to post in here as well.
  
 I just received my Darkvoice from Massdrop. I have noticed that when turning it up past 50% volume I start to get distortion and not much increase in volume. I have been trying to track it down to see if I can find a definite cause of it. I have tried using a Fiio E17K as an amp with both the headphone and output ports to see if it might be my headphones. With the E17K and turning the volume up on the darkvoice amp I can still notice some distortion, however, it is most noticeable when connecting headphones directly to the headphone port. Source is a turntable running through a phono preamp then into the Darkvoice. Headphones tested with are Klipsch Mode M40 and Audeze EL-8 Closed-back. My primaries are the EL-8s and I have to believe this thing should have no problem powering them and I shouldn't have any distortion. I am also thinking I shouldn't have to turn the volume up as much as I am having to.
  
 I have read some things about the tubes being bad from the factory and I'm wondering if that could be it. If anyone else has any other ideas it would be greatly appreciated. 
  
 Thank You.


----------



## tej789

I originally posted this in the other tuberolling thread but just discovered this one and thought I would put it in here as well.
  
 I just received my Darkvoice from Massdrop. I have noticed that when turning it up past 50% volume I start to get distortion and not much increase in volume. I have been trying to track it down to see if I can find a definite cause of it. I have tried using a Fiio E17K as an amp with both the headphone and output ports to see if it might be my headphones. With the E17K and turning the volume up on the darkvoice amp I can still notice some distortion, however, it is most noticeable when connecting headphones directly to the headphone port. Source is a turntable running through a phono preamp then into the Darkvoice. Headphones tested with are Klipsch Mode M40 and Audeze EL-8 Closed-back. My primaries are the EL-8s and I have to believe this thing should have no problem powering them and I shouldn't have any distortion. I am also thinking I shouldn't have to turn the volume up as much as I am having to.
  
 I have read some things about the tubes being bad from the factory and I'm wondering if that could be it. If anyone else has any other ideas it would be greatly appreciated. 
  
 Thank You.


----------



## gvl2016

I had the misfortune to buy some bad RCA output tubes, they behaved like you describe, distorting past 11 o'clock on the volume control knob. I would bet on a bad output tube.


----------



## tej789

Would you suggest getting some new tubes to see if it fixes it? I was also concerned that the volume was not getting very loud. I mean yeah it is enough to block background noise but with the EL-8s being 30ohms wouldn't it be really easy for this thing to drive them, as in not having to turn the knob much. Could a bad tube also contribute to that or do I just not know what I am talking about with the ohms etc.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Would you suggest getting some new tubes to see if it fixes it? I was also concerned that the volume was not getting very loud. I mean yeah it is enough to block background noise but with the EL-8s being 30ohms wouldn't it be really easy for this thing to drive them, as in not having to turn the knob much. Could a bad tube also contribute to that or do I just not know what I am talking about with the ohms etc.


 
  
 This amp doesn't pair too well with low-impedance headphones as there is a significant loss of low frequencies with them, but it should have no problem driving 30Ohm without distortion to very loud levels. I suggest trying a different output tube as you want to replace the stock one anyways. The symptoms you describe is exactly what I experienced with bad output tubes driving 32 Ohm phones, other tubes work fine in mine, so definitely could be a bad tube.


----------



## Mr Rick

tej789 said:


> Would you suggest getting some new tubes to see if it fixes it? I was also concerned that the volume was not getting very loud. I mean yeah it is enough to block background noise but with the EL-8s being 30ohms wouldn't it be really easy for this thing to drive them, as in not having to turn the knob much. Could a bad tube also contribute to that or do I just not know what I am talking about with the ohms etc.


 
 An OTL amp like the DV really works best with hi-z headphones like Sennheiser 600/650 or the Beyer 600 ohm models. That is what I use with my DV and I seldom get the volume above 9 o'clock.
  
 I've only used it one time with my Philips X2s (30 ohm) and it REALLY sounded poor.


----------



## tej789

> Originally Posted by *gvl2016*
> 
> This amp doesn't pair too well with low-impedance headphones as there is a significant loss of low frequencies with them, but it should have no problem driving 30Ohm without distortion to very loud levels. I suggest trying a different output tube as you want to replace the stock one anyways. The symptoms you describe is exactly what I experienced with bad output tubes driving 32 Ohm phones, other tubes work fine in mine, so definitely could be a bad tube.


 
 Using my Klipsch Mode M40s exhibited the same audio characteristics and those are 32Ohms, right at the lower ohm limit of the amp.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Using my Klipsch Mode M40s exhibited the same audio characteristics and those are 32Ohms, right at the lower ohm limit of the amp.


 
  
 Are you saying you had distortion with the M40s but no distortion with higher impedance headphones? I had no issues pairing Philips SHP9500s with the DV even if there is a slight loss of low end, and they actually sound good. I tried other 32 Ohm headphones as well, they didn't sound as nice but there was no distortion. With the bad tubes there was distortion always, even when using the DV as pre-amp with no headphones attached. Btw this is something to try to eliminate the headphones as potential problem. Burning the tubes in may help too, but if the tube is gassy there won't be an improvement running with a gassy tube isn't good for the amp.


----------



## tej789

gvl2016 said:


> Are you saying you had distortion with the M40s but no distortion with higher impedance headphones? I had no issues pairing Philips SHP9500s with the DV even if there is a slight loss of low end, and they actually sound good. I tried other 32 Ohm headphones as well, they didn't sound as nice but there was no distortion. With the bad tubes there was distortion always, even when using the DV as pre-amp with no headphones attached. Btw this is something to try to eliminate the headphones as potential problem. Burning the tubes in may help too, but if the tube is gassy it isn't good for the amp.


 
 No I am saying there was distortion with the 32ohm as well. I could try burning them in for a while. How would I know if the tube is gassy?


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> No I am saying there was distortion with the 32ohm as well. I could try burning them in for a while. How would I know if the tube is gassy?


 
  
 You'd need a tube tester to know for sure. Purple glow around plates would be one symptom but not guaranteed.


----------



## tej789

gvl2016 said:


> You'd need a tube tester to know for sure. Purple glow around plates would be one symptom but not guaranteed.


 
 I did not notice any purple, just the orange glow.
  
 I saw one thing about burning in the tubes in this amp and they suggested removing the 6AS7 tube and leaving the amp on for three days. Is it common practice to remove the large tube for burn-in?


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> I did not notice any purple, just the orange glow.
> 
> I saw one thing about burning in the tubes in this amp and they suggested removing the 6AS7 tube and leaving the amp on for three days. Is it common practice to remove the large tube for burn-in?


 
  
 If you're burning in just a new 6SN7 sure, as there is no reason to run the output tube unless you are actually listening to the amp at the same time. In your case you need to try to burn-in both tubes, so need to leave both tubes in. There can be some leftover gasses from the factory inside the tube and it takes some heat and time for the getter to absorb them, so burning them in might help.


----------



## tej789

gvl2016 said:


> If you're burning in just a new 6SN7 sure, as there is no reason to run the output tube unless you are actually listening to the amp at the same time. In your case you need to try to burn-in both tubes, so need to leave both tubes in. There can be some leftover gasses from the factory inside the tube and it takes some heat and time for the getter to absorb them, so burning them in might help.


 
 Is there any chance of this thing overheating? That large tube gets pretty hot and I don't want to leave it on when I am not there.


----------



## Mr Rick

tej789 said:


> I originally posted this in the other tuberolling thread but just discovered this one and thought I would put it in here as well.
> 
> I just received my Darkvoice from Massdrop. I have noticed that when turning it up past 50% volume I start to get distortion and not much increase in volume. I have been trying to track it down to see if I can find a definite cause of it. I have tried using a Fiio E17K as an amp with both the headphone and output ports to see if it might be my headphones. With the E17K and turning the volume up on the darkvoice amp I can still notice some distortion, however, it is most noticeable when connecting headphones directly to the headphone port. Source is a turntable running through a phono preamp then into the Darkvoice. Headphones tested with are Klipsch Mode M40 and Audeze EL-8 Closed-back. My primaries are the EL-8s and I have to believe this thing should have no problem powering them and I shouldn't have any distortion. I am also thinking I shouldn't have to turn the volume up as much as I am having to.
> 
> ...


 

 I would not throw good money after bad trying to force the DV to do something it was not intended to do.
  
 To put it bluntly, you chose the wrong amp for your low-z cans.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Is there any chance of this thing overheating? That large tube gets pretty hot and I don't want to leave it on when I am not there.


 
  
 While unlikely I wouldn't totally exclude such possibility, that is why I turn mine off every time I need to leave for more than 30 minutes.


----------



## tej789

mr rick said:


> I would not throw good money after bad trying to force the DV to do something it was not intended to do.
> 
> To put it bluntly, you chose the wrong amp for your low-z cans.


 
 Be that as it may, the amp has a rating of 32-600ohms, I have headphones that are 32ohms, and there is still distortion with them. So I would like to try and get the distortion issue resolved before coming to the conclusion that I have the wrong amp for a 30ohm set of headphones.I have no problem buying a proper pair of openbacks to match with the amp to listen to my records.


----------



## gvl2016

mr rick said:


> I would not throw good money after bad trying to force the DV to do something it was not intended to do.
> 
> To put it bluntly, you chose the wrong amp for your low-z cans.


 
  
 While the last statement is true output cap replacement can make DV work well with low-impedance cans.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Be that as it may, the amp has a rating of 32-600ohms, I have headphones that are 32ohms, and there is still distortion with them. So I would like to try and get the distortion issue resolved before coming to the conclusion that I have the wrong amp for a 30ohm set of headphones.I have no problem buying a proper pair of openbacks to match with the amp to listen to my records.


 
  
 There should be no distortion. Pick a cheapo tested NOS GE6080 for like $12-15 shipped from eBay and see if it works better. Also try connecting DV's line-out to a speaker amp if you have one and see if distortion is still present (do it with the headphones unplugged).


----------



## Mr Rick

Here is further information on the subject. Should you be so inclined.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702109/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question


----------



## tej789

gvl2016 said:


> There should be no distortion. Pick a cheapo tested NOS GE6080 for like $12-15 shipped from eBay and see if it works better. Also try connecting DV's line-out to a speaker amp if you have one and see if distortion is still present (do it with the headphones unplugged).


 
 Best thing I can do is connect them to my Klipsch computer speakers, which was my plan in the first place for pass-through. However, when I connected line-out to my Fiio E17K and turned the volume up I could still hear some distortion, just not as noticeable as when using the headphones plugged directly in.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Completely agree with gvl2016, my first place to direct people when they buy a DV it straight to headfi tube Rolling section. The first thing anybody should know when they're new to tubes after reading this thread is to replace the original factory tubes and not to use low impedance headphones unless you do internal modifications so your DV can work with low impedance headphones but then may suffer a little bit for the high impedance.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Best thing I can do is connect them to my Klipsch computer speakers, which was my plan in the first place for pass-through. However, when I connected line-out to my Fiio E17K and turned the volume up I could still hear some distortion, just not as noticeable as when using the headphones plugged directly in.


 
  
 This matches my experience with a bad output tube... Less distortion but the volume would reach saturation at 10-11 o'clock position on the knob when the line-out is used.


----------



## tej789

gvl2016 said:


> This matches my experience with a bad output tube... Less distortion but the volume would reach saturation at 10-11 o'clock position on the knob when the line-out is used.


 
 Well at least I have an answer, guess I need to buy some new tubes.
  
  


mr rick said:


> Here is further information on the subject. Should you be so inclined.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702109/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question


 
 As mentioned in this post, would a different power tube type work with the DV to achieve better support for a low ohm headphone?


----------



## atarione

tej789 said:


> I originally posted this in the other tuberolling thread but just discovered this one and thought I would put it in here as well.
> 
> I just received my Darkvoice from Massdrop. I have noticed that when turning it up past 50% volume I start to get distortion and not much increase in volume. I have been trying to track it down to see if I can find a definite cause of it. I have tried using a Fiio E17K as an amp with both the headphone and output ports to see if it might be my headphones. With the E17K and turning the volume up on the darkvoice amp I can still notice some distortion, however, it is most noticeable when connecting headphones directly to the headphone port. Source is a turntable running through a phono preamp then into the Darkvoice. Headphones tested with are Klipsch Mode M40 and Audeze EL-8 Closed-back. My primaries are the EL-8s and I have to believe this thing should have no problem powering them and I shouldn't have any distortion. I am also thinking I shouldn't have to turn the volume up as much as I am having to.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 hmm... what is massdrop's return policy?  if I was you i'd try to figure this out soon~ish.     as others have stated this amp isn't the best choice for the low z planar headphones.. but whatever..  have you tried hooking the amp up to a different source (even your cellphone) ???
  
 assuming you have time to order a couple low dollar tubes to try swapping out and still be in the return / exchange window then that might be a good idea to try...  but I'd be warry of getting stuck with a defective DV336SE messing about too long ... it could be a dud .. but bum tubes are certainly an option.
  
 even if it is a bum tube you may want to consider getting different headphones for use with this amp instead of the EL-8's


----------



## gvl2016

Given the simplicity of the design, if you can get any sound out of it chances are it is the tube that needs replacing.


----------



## tej789

atarione said:


> hmm... what is massdrop's return policy?  if I was you i'd try to figure this out soon~ish.     as others have stated this amp isn't the best choice for the low z planar headphones.. but whatever..  have you tried hooking the amp up to a different source (even your cellphone) ???
> 
> assuming you have time to order a couple low dollar tubes to try swapping out and still be in the return / exchange window then that might be a good idea to try...  but I'd be warry of getting stuck with a defective DV336SE messing about too long ... it could be a dud .. but bum tubes are certainly an option.
> 
> even if it is a bum tube you may want to consider getting different headphones for use with this amp instead of the EL-8's


 
 Unfortunately Massdrop's return policy is all sales are final.
  
 And if it came down to it since I cannot return the amp I would probably try to find some open-back headphones to pair with it.


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> Unfortunately Massdrop's return policy is all sales are final.
> 
> And if it came down to it since I cannot return the amp I would probably try to find some open-back headphones to pair with it.


 
  
 They might replace a defective unit, but likely won't issue a refund I think.


----------



## tej789

I have ordered a a new tube. Hopefully it will improve it.


----------



## atarione

tej789 said:


>


 

 what tube did you order??  hopefully it was just a bum stock tube.. the stock tubes are not so hot anyways...  
  
 w/ my DV336 I have been running mostly a GE 6AS7GA and RCA 6SN7GT I have quite liked these tubes w/ my DT880 250ohms headphones (these headphone do team quite nicely w/ the DV imho btw if you decided to start shopping about for new headphones)..   I don't ever turn the volume up past 11' or so..or it is quite loud with this combo.  most listening is more like 9' ~ 10' really.


----------



## tej789

atarione said:


> what tube did you order??  hopefully it was just a bum stock tube.. the stock tubes are not so hot anyways...
> 
> w/ my DV336 I have been running mostly a GE 6AS7GA and RCA 6SN7GT I have quite liked these tubes w/ my DT880 250ohms headphones (these headphone do team quite nicely w/ the DV imho btw if you decided to start shopping about for new headphones)..   I don't ever turn the volume up past 11' or so..or it is quite loud with this combo.  most listening is more like 9' ~ 10' really.


 
 I ordered what gvl2016 suggested. NOS GE6080 for $10. I will wait to see if tubes help before looking at new headphones. After spending $700 on the EL-8s like 6 weeks ago I am not ready to start looking for another pair of premium headphones


----------



## DoctaCosmos

So I've had my DV for a while but have neglected to buy any tubes for it as my eBay account was suspended. I've got my account back to normal and would like to purchase a set. Preferably from a larger company that I can trust to be good quality. I know different tubes for different sounds so if anyone has any recommendations on so,etching with great separation, detail, digs deep and has sweet highs Itd be greatly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## gvl2016

tej789 said:


> I ordered what gvl2016 suggested. NOS GE6080 for $10. I will wait to see if tubes help before looking at new headphones. After spending $700 on the EL-8s like 6 weeks ago I am not ready to start looking for another pair of premium headphones


 
  
 It is unfortunate but you won't be able to get most of DV with these headphones even if the distortion is gone. If you have basic electronics and soldering skills swapping out output caps for electrolythics should be easy enough, not ideal but better than rolled off bass below 100Hz.


----------



## atarione

tej789 said:


> Unfortunately Massdrop's return policy is all sales are final.
> 
> And if it came down to it since I cannot return the amp I would probably try to find some open-back headphones to pair with it.


 

 so I looked and they say to contact them within 30days for a defective / damaged item... If it was me, I'd probably contact them now (or at least within 30 days if the new tubes don't arrive quickly..) and let them know you are having a problem with the amp.. and see what they have to say...
  
 but I would certainly try to keep my return option open if the amp itself turns out to be the issue..
  
 I think you should order a ~low dollar 6SN7 tube also..
  
 if you haven't figured it out by the time you get near the 30day window... I'd make sure you have started talking to massdrop support about the problem...


----------



## tej789

atarione said:


> so I looked and they say to contact them within 30days for a defective / damaged item... If it was me, I'd probably contact them now (or at least within 30 days if the new tubes don't arrive quickly..) and let them know you are having a problem with the amp.. and see what they have to say...
> 
> but I would certainly try to keep my return option open if the amp itself turns out to be the issue..
> 
> ...


 
 Good call. I just thought I always read that their sales were final. I will keep this in mind. Thanks.


----------



## 41Venom14

@DoctaCosmos Hello man, I'm still quite a noob when it comes to tube rolling, but I got stocked up pretty hard the second I got the DV. Respect to the man who can keep his wallet closed lol. 
 I feel an RCA combo may be what you are looking for. I found them to be the brightest tube selection. I prefer my highs tamed and my lows deep as hell, my favorite combo has been Sylvania VT-231 + Sylvania 7236 or 6080. 
 RCA 6SN7 + RCA 6AS7G may be a good place to start and those are on the cheaper spectrum, which is beneficial if you don't like the taste.
 Very detailed, but a bit to bright for my taste, highs were damn high.
  
@tej789 Sorry to hear about your problem mate. I would go along with @atarione's statement in that you should pick up some cheap 6SN7s and maybe even a 6AS7 or 6080 just to test. With ebay they should be able to get to your place pretty quick, there is also a couple tube stores with their 70's style websites.
  
 I also, like you, had an issue with my DV in the beginning like 3 days in, the left channel completely cut out from me. It turned out to be the DAC being weird, so at least if that ever happens to you its most likely a source problem and quick restart of the DAC will solve all your issues.
  
 As everyone else has stated, the stock tubes aren't great (not bad, but not great) and it's true the DV, without modifications, aren't going to pair well with low Z cans, but there are some tubes that are better than others for low Z cans. Not sure what they are off the top of my head so hopefully another tube roller will jump in here for you.


----------



## rudra

doctacosmos said:


> So I've had my DV for a while but have neglected to buy any tubes for it as my eBay account was suspended. I've got my account back to normal and would like to purchase a set. Preferably from a larger company that I can trust to be good quality. I know different tubes for different sounds so if anyone has any recommendations on so,etching with great separation, detail, digs deep and has sweet highs Itd be greatly appreciated. Thanks


 
  I have rolled a fair number of tubes. My top two favourites is a Tungsol 5998 and VT-231 BGRP on the DV and a Tungsol 6080 graphite column with Slyvania 5692 red base.  Benefit of hindsight I would rather invest in a better amp especially if I was using a HP like the Eikon. Don't get me wrong, the DV is a good value for money. Unfortunately I found the DV bass to be bloated even with good tubes.


----------



## himynameiskiera

Upgrade the output caps to sort out the bass


----------



## rudra

It may be better but having moved on to a better amp I am not going to replace the caps.


----------



## 41Venom14

rudra said:


> It may be better but having moved on to a better amp I am not going to replace the caps.


 
  
@rudra what amp did you move too??


----------



## TravAndAlex

I replaced the output caps to 300 Ohms Mundorf, and while it did improve the performance with low impedance headphones, IMO the Darkvoice really sounds the best with high impedance phones.  The pairing with 600 Ohm Beyer DT880's is pretty darn magnificent.


----------



## 41Venom14

travandalex said:


> I replaced the output caps to 300 Ohms Mundorf, and while it did improve the performance with low impedance headphones, IMO the Darkvoice really sounds the best with high impedance phones.  The pairing with 600 Ohm Beyer DT880's is pretty darn magnificent.


 
  
 I know it sounds like a broken record, but I completely agree. Trying the Fostex TH-X00s at 32 ohms, nearly vomited from the lack of everything that is sound lol. 250 ohms and up, the DV comes out of its own. I'm running the Beyerdynamic 1990 and the bass is there comparing it to the Solid State. No loss of anything, speed, detail, its crisp and clean and a touch warmer with INFINITE power from the DV. Blows my mind why the knob is so large when it can only go up to 11 o'clock before you are blowing ear drums.


----------



## TravAndAlex

41venom14 said:


> I know it sounds like a broken record, but I completely agree. Trying the Fostex TH-X00s at 32 ohms, nearly vomited from the lack of everything that is sound lol. 250 ohms and up, the DV comes out of its own. I'm running the Beyerdynamic 1990 and the bass is there comparing it to the Solid State. No loss of anything, speed, detail, its crisp and clean and a touch warmer with INFINITE power from the DV. Blows my mind why the knob is so large when it can only go up to 11 o'clock before you are blowing ear drums.


 
 Amen!  Buy the DV and a set of high impedance Beyers (and maybe a couple tubes) and be done with it!  Seriously good sound that punches above it's weight (price) class.


----------



## rudra

41venom14 said:


> @rudra
> what amp did you move too??



Little dot MK 6+


----------



## atarione

so... something I have never been able to get a clear idea about?  perhaps someone can help me out here with it.
  
 How Long should the Tubes last in a DV336 (assuming NOS USA tubes).. in this case GE 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GT .. this amp gets used several hours at least a day (up to 6~ working from home most days)
  
 should I expect to have these tubes last years or months or ???   I can't imagine back in the day if people would have been happy if the tubes in their TV's or stereo's ate it every couple months.. so I'm guessing?? the tubes last awhile...    I realize there are probably a lot of variables and differences in individual tubes.. but a ball park would be helpful...
  
  
 so I thought about it a minute (probably should have done that before.. but whatever) blah blah so now I think I have reached my own conclusion ...that time will tell I guess?
  
 so assuming the tubes have a 10,000hr or such rating.. and the got used 6hrs a day.. they would in theory last about 4 1/2 yrs...  since it is not usually actually 6~ hours but something less... the tubes at least in theory should soldier on for years vs months???


----------



## Mr Rick

atarione said:


> so... something I have never been able to get a clear idea about?  perhaps someone can help me out here with it.
> 
> How Long should the Tubes last in a DV336 (assuming NOS USA tubes).. in this case GE 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7GT .. this amp gets used several hours at least a day (up to 6~ working from home most days)
> 
> should I expect to have these tubes last years or months or ???   I can't imagine back in the day if people would have been happy if the tubes in their TV's or stereo's ate it every couple months.. so I'm guessing?? the tubes last awhile...    I realize there are probably a lot of variables and differences in individual tubes.. but a ball park would be helpful...


 
 Typically 10,000 hours. I have tube radios built in the 1950's that still have original tubes.


----------



## atarione

mr rick said:


> Typically 10,000 hours. I have tube radios built in the 1950's that still have original tubes.


 

 kewl.. thanks for the reply... i feel better having seen this / thought about it myself for a minute... I didn't want to have be be buying tubes....  these tubes are pretty rugged little buggers it seems..


----------



## gerryS

Hey guys I need some help
  
 My darkvoice came in from massdrop a few weeks ago and I have been enjoying it, but the last time I unplugged my headphones while they were still on I got this really loud popping sound that came through my headphones, it was so loud that my ears were ringing afterwards and I was afraid the headphones might have been damaged. The next time I used the darkvoice I turned the volume all the way down and flipped it off using the switch and the same exact thing happened. Has anyone else had this problem or know what might be causing this? Now I'm afraid that I'll break my headphones if I use the amp again, and I don't know if I can return it.


----------



## rudra

May I suggest that you don't have your HP connected when switching off/on. Since the DV is a OTL the HP is coupled direct to the tubes. There is a possibility that one of your tubes are faulty. If you have access to another set of tubes you can test them.


----------



## gvl2016

gerrys said:


> Hey guys I need some help
> 
> My darkvoice came in from massdrop a few weeks ago and I have been enjoying it, but the last time I unplugged my headphones while they were still on I got this really loud popping sound that came through my headphones, it was so loud that my ears were ringing afterwards and I was afraid the headphones might have been damaged. The next time I used the darkvoice I turned the volume all the way down and flipped it off using the switch and the same exact thing happened. Has anyone else had this problem or know what might be causing this? Now I'm afraid that I'll break my headphones if I use the amp again, and I don't know if I can return it.


 
  
 Could be due to a bad connection in a socket, a slight vibration such as flipping the switch could cause a pop, this has been my experience anyway. Try tapping on the top plate with your finger and see if you can reproduce the popping sound while the amp is on, or gently rock the tubes in the sockets this can cause it too. If so get some deoxit and clean tube pins with it, if there is visible oxidation on the pins you can use very fine sandpaper to clean it before applying deoxit. Apply deoxit inside the socket too, I wouldn't use the spray type, they sell a "battery" kit for like $4 with applicators, they work well inside the socket. Socket contact retention might help too.


----------



## gerryS

gvl2016 said:


> Could be due to a bad connection in a socket, a slight vibration such as flipping the switch could cause a pop, this has been my experience anyway. Try tapping on the top plate with your finger and see if you can reproduce the popping sound while the amp is on, or gently rock the tubes in the sockets this can cause it too. If so get some deoxit and clean tube pins with it, if there is visible oxidation on the pins you can use very fine sandpaper to clean it before applying deoxit. Apply deoxit inside the socket too, I wouldn't use the spray type, they sell a "battery" kit for like $4 with applicators, they work well inside the socket. Socket contact retention might help too.


 
  
 I have a cheap pair of $10 headphones laying around that I have been testing with since I don't really care if they get damaged, and I found that I can reproduce the issue by tapping on the plate. I'll try cleaning the pins when I get a chance and I sent a note to Massdrop support just to see what they say and if I have any options if I can't get it fixed. For now I have been getting around the issue by connecting an A/B switcher between the amp and my headphones and just flipping the switch on that before turning off the amp. I don't really like adding extra cables to the chain but at least I have a way to switch the amp off without potentially killing my 650s.
  
 Thanks for the advice.


----------



## gvl2016

gerrys said:


> I have a cheap pair of $10 headphones laying around that I have been testing with since I don't really care if they get damaged, and I found that I can reproduce the issue by tapping on the plate. I'll try cleaning the pins when I get a chance and I sent a note to Massdrop support just to see what they say and if I have any options if I can't get it fixed. For now I have been getting around the issue by connecting an A/B switcher between the amp and my headphones and just flipping the switch on that before turning off the amp. I don't really like adding extra cables to the chain but at least I have a way to switch the amp off without potentially killing my 650s.
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


 
  
 Thing is the pop can happen any time, even without tapping on the case or flipping the switch. Seems the recent DV drops have this issue as never came across it when reading earlier discussions. The core of the problem is the crappy tube sockets, the only guaranteed remedy is to get them replaced and I doubt MD will do it. So far cleaning the pins gives good results but I still get an occasional pop or scratching sounds in one of the channels, both sockets have this issue. I saw some decent gold-plated 8-pin socket savers on eBay with stronger clamps on the tube side, they might help too.


----------



## rudra

Have you ruled out that the stock tubes are not bad before you start changing the sockets.


----------



## gvl2016

rudra said:


> Have you ruled out that the stock tubes are not bad before you start changing the sockets.


 
  
 If this was addressed to me then yes, in fact my stock tubes do not pop, but others do, and by others I mean more than one tube so it is unlikely they are all bad, plus deoxit and cleaning the pins with sandpaper helps.


----------



## tej789

Replaced the tubes and the distortion is still there. I have reached out to Massdrop to try and replace/return the unit. Thanks for all the help everyone.


----------



## atarione

tej789 said:


> Replaced the tubes and the distortion is still there. I have reached out to Massdrop to try and replace/return the unit. Thanks for all the help everyone.


 
  
 bummer.. that is too bad... hopefully massdrop can sort it out for y'all...   it is a very nice amp if you get one that works properly (imho) but sometimes this is the way things go..
  
 good luck with MD support ..I hope they can make this right for y'all.


----------



## TYATYA

Power tube JAN-CTL-5998-TUNGSOL U.S.A
Preamp tune JAN CHS 6SN7GT VT-231 SYLVANIA U.S.A
HD650
******* good combine on DV336!


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Local speaker shop talked me into buying a high priced shu guang preamp tube for $100. Not a nos tube just a "more refined version of stock". Maybe it is but sure isn't when the left channel is buzzy a good 70dbs!  Not really local as I'll have to drive two hours tomorrow to replace it but oh well


----------



## gvl2016

Give it some time, new tubes are known to hum the DV, it should diminish significantly over first 50hrs or so.


----------



## rudra

doctacosmos said:


> Local speaker shop talked me into buying a high priced shu guang preamp tube for $100. Not a nos tube just a "more refined version of stock". Maybe it is but sure isn't when the left channel is buzzy a good 70dbs!  Not really local as I'll have to drive two hours tomorrow to replace it but oh well


 
 If you want to burn tubes in the DV, remove the power tube and all cables and just burn the tube for 24-48 hours. If the hum is still there burn the tube for another 24 hr and check. I have had to burn in NOS tubes for about 5 days before the hum disappeared.


----------



## UntilThen

tyatya said:


> Power tube JAN-CTL-5998-TUNGSOL U.S.A
> Preamp tune JAN CHS 6SN7GT VT-231 SYLVANIA U.S.A
> HD650
> ******* good combine on DV336!


 
  
 Indeed.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

doctacosmos said:


> Local speaker shop talked me into buying a high priced shu guang preamp tube for $100. Not a nos tube just a "more refined version of stock". Maybe it is but sure isn't when the left channel is buzzy a good 70dbs!  Not really local as I'll have to drive two hours tomorrow to replace it but oh well



Can you please post a photo of the tube and the box it came in with the exact part #. It appears they have a few versions of the preamp tube 6SN7. I periodically travel to China and I have been wondering should I pick up some of these tubes because I could get them at a fraction of the cost. But their price range for the exact same tube for different versions of the same part number here in the states range from $12 to 180+ dollars .


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Will do in a little bit. I believe he said it was from prestige series. It's got a metal top coating, black glass and white bottom


----------



## DoctaCosmos

It's a shuguang treasure cv181


----------



## UntilThen

Several varities.
  
 Shuguang Treasure CV181-z

  
 Psvane CV181 Tii

  
  
 Psvane 6sn7 UK - this will come as stock drivers with my Euforia amp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

The Darkvoice 336SE is being sold thru Massdrop, for the next 6 day (ends Saturday 3/18).


----------



## himynameiskiera

I've just received my HD 800 and after a few hours use I can say it pairs really really well with the darkvoice and really removes the 6khz.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

The treasure is sooo clean


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Someone mentioned Sylvania 6080 and a bought a pair and they're trash imo. So much reverb it's ridiculous


----------



## 432789

I have bought and tried many 6080/6AS7G tubes including the holy grail GEC 6AS7G and  I wish somebody would have told me this from the beginning: you can install a 6SN7 tube in the 6AS7 pot with no problem whatsoever except for the volume decreasing a bit, It will sound better than any of the best 6AS7G tube you can buy,  no one seems to admit it but 6AS7G tube were never made for audio or for precision, the coke bottle look, looks good but they are a bottleneck to the sound. I challenge anyone to try a 6SN7 instead of a 6AS7G, that was the biggest improvement I have ever got in tube rolling the Darkvoice power tube, 
 Personally I am using a Sylvania 6SN7W labeled 6SN7GTA as the driver tube, and Sylvania 6SN7GTB as the power tube on my modded Darkvoice 336se (Light voice 777se)


----------



## 41Venom14

@DoctaCosmos I suggested the Sylvania 6080 lol. What pair of headphones were using? I would assume the Eikons?


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Yeah eikon. I've not been able to try the 6080 with my new treasure pretube but will maybe tomorrow . 





thebrunx said:


> I have bought and tried many 6080/6AS7G tubes including the holy grail GEC 6AS7G and  I wish somebody would have told me this from the beginning: you can install a 6SN7 tube in the 6AS7 pot with no problem whatsoever except for the volume decreasing a bit, It will sound better than any of the best 6AS7G tube you can buy,  no one seems to admit it but 6AS7G tube were never made for audio or for precision, the coke bottle look, looks good but they are a bottleneck to the sound. I challenge anyone to try a 6SN7 instead of a 6AS7G, that was the biggest improvement I have ever got in tube rolling the Darkvoice power tube,
> Personally I am using a Sylvania 6SN7W labeled 6SN7GTA as the driver tube, and Sylvania 6SN7GTB as the power tube on my modded Darkvoice 336se (Light voice 777se)


. This scares me lol. But I might give it a try. If two treasures will work together then that'd be amazing


----------



## gvl2016

thebrunx said:


> I have bought and tried many 6080/6AS7G tubes including the holy grail GEC 6AS7G and  I wish somebody would have told me this from the beginning: you can install a 6SN7 tube in the 6AS7 pot with no problem whatsoever except for the volume decreasing a bit, It will sound better than any of the best 6AS7G tube you can buy,  no one seems to admit it but 6AS7G tube were never made for audio or for precision, the coke bottle look, looks good but they are a bottleneck to the sound. I challenge anyone to try a 6SN7 instead of a 6AS7G, that was the biggest improvement I have ever got in tube rolling the Darkvoice power tube,
> Personally I am using a Sylvania 6SN7W labeled 6SN7GTA as the driver tube, and Sylvania 6SN7GTB as the power tube on my modded Darkvoice 336se (Light voice 777se)


 
  
 This is brilliant. This idea briefly crossed my mind but then I forgot to look into it. I run DV as a pre-amp mostly, so decreased output is of less concern and if it makes output less hot it would be a bonus as level adjustment pots on my power amp are already turned all the way down. Looking at the specs both are 6.3V heater voltage and 6SN7 is 4x less heater current so no problem with this. Are they running at the same voltages in the amp? Looks like 6AS7 can withstand higher voltages but in different applications.


----------



## IlTossico

Ciao a tutti!! Hi All!!
 I'm new to this forum! My name is Filippo, i have 24 years old and i live in Italy, near Venice! I apologize now for my bad english. 
  
 Recently i buy my new Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohm Manufaktur Edition and a Darkvoice 336SE on Massdrop for a very good price! I'm new to the world of valves, it's the first time i listen music on tube amp. Wow, a week ago, when just arrived my DV, i immediately tried it with dt990 and i listen "Seven National Army of White Stripes....and...wow, i almost had tears by the emotions of this amazing sound, for mine "standard" this is very good, the best sound for me, i tryed it with my OnePlus 3T but i buy this stuff for my PC, for listen music and for gaming. 
  
  
 Now i'm using stock cinese tubes, the sound for my is very good but i saw immediately that the stock valves are very worst "externally" and i'm planning to buy new two tubes. In Italy and Europe is so difficult find USA tubes right RCA and same, i find a russian man, can shop me nice new "old" tube, all tested and with paypal payment. 
  
 I would not spend too much money for those valves, but the combination i had seen is not available and he proposed me to buy a "RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G Black Plates" for amp tube and a "Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA Black Plates" for preamp. For you guys, is a good buy? (Can i write the prices?)
  
 Mmmm...is there a huge difference changing the valves? Sorry for this stupid question. I'm curious, but i don't want spend a lot of money for those things, beacuse i use them most for pc gaming, i love to "dive" in game, for example, the experience of this combination (dt990+dv336) is awesome compared to my Sennheiser HD518 that i use for years. 
  
  
 Another thing, sorry if i take "advantage of you", i try the "combo" with my pc, and....nothing, when i listen headphone without music or sound i feel a very bad noise and i notice the noice increase when i scroll mouse or click it, worse, when i play game i can hear the workload of phase of my video card, lol, approximately i can hear the frequency of gpu go up or down. I study for electronics technician and i suppose this is a problem of grounding, my motherboard or my psu is the problem, i'm planning to buy a new pc ring when coffee lake cpu come out. 
 It's all ok! Beacuse in my audio ring i need almost a DAC! Usb dac can't help me a lot, just tried, i need one this optical in. And.....i need another time help! I find a lot od dac, so much, very much, i'm confused! I need a simple one, like Schiit Modi 2 Uber or JDS OL DAC, but i'm not sure, i dont' have a lot of money, i just spend  about 450€ and i estimate 100€ for new valves and 150/200€ for DAC. T_T Lot of money, i can buy a very good gaming pc or a very good video card with these!!
  
  
  
 Ok, it's all!! 
 Thanks for the support and patience. Grazie a tutti!


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Well today I tried every combo possible. Right off the bat I tried my treasure tube for preamp as my power tube and it threw the imaging waaaaaay off. Like there was no crossfeed at all. Couldn't listen to it very long. Immediately put the treasure back in the 6sn7 socket and it cleared thing up. The sylvania 6080 can work for non complex passages and has an overly airy presentation with extra reverb, good details and the midbass punch is amazingly powerful but it's just too messy for me. The stock tube with the treasure is actually quite pleasing to me. The right amount of body air and texture and dynamics to keep the organic nature of the tube sound. Definitely not too gooey like I've read someone say about the darkvoice . It's very pleasing. I've got a tungsol 6080 coming tomorrow that is untested so don't know if it'll even work but if it does will let you know


----------



## DoctaCosmos




----------



## gvl2016

thebrunx said:


> I have bought and tried many 6080/6AS7G tubes including the holy grail GEC 6AS7G and  I wish somebody would have told me this from the beginning: you can install a 6SN7 tube in the 6AS7 pot with no problem whatsoever except for the volume decreasing a bit, It will sound better than any of the best 6AS7G tube you can buy,  no one seems to admit it but 6AS7G tube were never made for audio or for precision...


 
  
 Well, I tried it today quickly and I can't say I was impressed with the results. There was some loss of low end but worse the sound became grainier. This was a preamp usage. Popped back in my RCA JAN 6AS7, all is back to normal, punchy bass and smooth treble. The good news there was no smoke. YMMV.


----------



## UntilThen

gvl2016 said:


> Well, I tried it today quickly and I can't say I was impressed with the results. There was some loss of low end but worse the sound became grainier. This was a preamp usage. Popped back in my RCA JAN 6AS7, all is back to normal, punchy bass and smooth treble. The good news there was no smoke. YMMV.


 
  
 Yes I agree. 6SN7 front and back results in a thin sound. Done that, tried that both in DV336se and Elise. 6AS7 or 6080 as power tubes is my preferred option.


----------



## 41Venom14

@DoctaCosmos where did you pick up the treasure tube? It looks glorious, would love to add it to my collection.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I bought it from my 2 hr away most local speaker shop. I knew I was going to overpay especially when you can always get stuff on eBay much cheaper but I like giving them my business to an extent because I go there to audition stuff. Funny enough I asked if I was going to be able to get on online and buy one for $40 because I don't like being completely ripped off either. He said no he doesn't think so. I got home and found them for $60 new on eBay so not too far off I suppose. once this other tube gets here today and I get the rig warmed up I'll do a direct comparison of the stock one and see what the differences are and whether I think it merits the upgrade.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Also if anyone wants to just try a sylvania 6080, I've got two I will give one to two different people for free if they pay for shipping.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Good news is the tung sol works with a slight hiss without music. Not noticeable when playing. Bad news, there isn't any lol. It sounds fantastic. Much more detailed and much more body everywhere. It's just fatter sounding all together which would be a bad thing if it didn't have more detail and better dynamics. i say this because the soundstage is filled up more with textures and less of a background so it can seem less visual but ultimately it's more pleasing.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Alright guys I've come to the conclusion that the shu guang is definitely worth buying. what I've found is that the original pre amp tube is constricting the quality and true representation of the amplifier tube. What I'm saying is that when I put the shuguang in, I noticed how much better or worse the other amplifier tubes were. It really allowed the better tubes to shine where they are best.


----------



## gvl2016

doctacosmos said:


> Alright guys I've come to the conclusion that the shu guang is definitely worth buying. what I've found is that the original pre amp tube is constricting the quality and true representation of the amplifier tube. What I'm saying is that when I put the shuguang in, I noticed how much better or worse the other amplifier tubes were. It really allowed the better tubes to shine where they are best.


 

 That's way too many words to describe that stock tubes in DV are crap.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

It wasn't just saying the stock are crap though. I wanted to emphasize the shu guang ability to really open up any driver tubes cabilities rather than make people think that it had its own sound or flavor if you will.


----------



## atarione

So... I managed to hush my wife up about how much the DV336SE cost to run
  
 got out my energy usage meter thing .. DV336SE (at least mine) used about 59~watts 
  
 even living in SoCal with pretty high electric rates $0.17kWh the DV would use ~14.4kWh running it 8hrs a day 30 days a month.. which would cost a whopping $2.45 a month...  I doubt most people are using their DV's 8hrs a day.. mine is probably on 2~4hrs a day which is more like $1.22 a month..
  
 money well spent..
  
 whatever if anyone wants to calc the cost of a given appliance and you know how many watts it uses.. you can calculate it here
  
 https://energy.gov/energysaver/estimating-appliance-and-home-electronic-energy-use


----------



## gvl2016

Start shopping for solar, lol.


----------



## r2muchstuff

I purchased a 336 SE from the forums a week or so ago.  RCA 6AS7 in power position and ran through several 6SN7s as pre tubes.  Out of around 15 6SN7s I found 7 with no or almost no noise.
  
 Paired a RCA JAN 6SN7 with the RCA 6AS7 and enjoyed the results.  I am primarily listening to a Beyerdynamic T90 with this system.
  
 Source is iPod Gen 7 ( ALAC ) > Cambridge Digital Dock D100 > Coax > Bifrost Multibit > DV 336 SE > T90.
  
 Today I tried an adapter and a Sylvania 6F8G.  Totally silent.
  
 I will need more time, first impressions are very good.  This combo will stay in place for a while 
  
 JMTC,
  
 r2


----------



## TYATYA

I minimize noise by using this below picture.
The end part of rca cables was covered by alu tape and the tape contact to the ring of rca jack.
Mostly zero noise at maximum gain when nothing connect to 3.5mm poles of the cable. The cable was 1.5m long and put on wall or ground.... any surface. 
Not zero noise but much much better than before implement the tape.


----------



## atarione

Is anyone else's DV336SE sort of touchy about how you plug the headphones in??
  
 every now and again I have to pull the 1/4" jack out and plug it back in to get the right channel... anyone else find the 1/4" jack to be sort of touchy??
  
 I did try cleaning the 1/4" jack with some deoxit ... I thought that had worked for a couple days but now it just happened again when trying to plug my dt770's in...


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> Is anyone else's DV336SE sort of touchy about how you plug the headphones in??
> 
> every now and again I have to pull the 1/4" jack out and plug it back in to get the right channel... anyone else find the 1/4" jack to be sort of touchy??
> 
> I did try cleaning the 1/4" jack with some deoxit ... I thought that had worked for a couple days but now it just happened again when trying to plug my dt770's in...


 
  
 I never had much of an issue with that. I did have the left channel cut out on me, but it was due to my DAC being strange.
  
 Keep us updated on that.


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> I never had much of an issue with that. I did have the left channel cut out on me, but it was due to my DAC being strange.
> 
> Keep us updated on that.


 

 yeah.. will do.. cleaned the jack again with deoxit .. working for the time being .. tried unplugging /plugging headphones in 1/2 dozen times .. so far no right channel issues again..
  
 I don't know maybe the jack is / was just a bit dirty??
  
 If it starts acting up I may open the amp up and checking the soldering work on the jack??
  
  
 Oh I guess I can add... I never have a issue with it dropping the right channel when using the rca line outs..   just sometimes (frequently) when plugging headphones in have to unplug them and sort of rotate the plug when plugging it in to get the right channel... once the channel is up, it stays up for the rest of the session..but it is temperamental as heck when plugging headphones in..


----------



## atarione

hmm.. I am thinking it is something to do with dirty contacts inside the jack... cleaned the jack again with deoxit (sprayed some onto a 1/4" adapter and plugged that into the dv (while powered off) and rotated it around in the jack.. let it stay there over night..
  
 so far ... today the issue hasn't occurred.. both channels coming on correctly when hooking headphones up without having to futz with it trying to get the right channel...
  
 hopefully the more intense cleaning of the jack will resolve the issue ??? not sure yet.. but so far it is working as it should for now..


----------



## 432789

sometimes one channel dies out on mine when plugging headphones but it is because of the RCA cable connection at the back and not the headphone pot, I just play with the cables at the back and viola (loose connection)


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> hmm.. I am thinking it is something to do with dirty contacts inside the jack... cleaned the jack again with deoxit (sprayed some onto a 1/4" adapter and plugged that into the dv (while powered off) and rotated it around in the jack.. let it stay there over night..
> 
> so far ... today the issue hasn't occurred.. both channels coming on correctly when hooking headphones up without having to futz with it trying to get the right channel...
> 
> hopefully the more intense cleaning of the jack will resolve the issue ??? not sure yet.. but so far it is working as it should for now..


 
  
 Interesting issue. Obviously just be careful with liquids and electricity


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> Interesting issue. Obviously just be careful with liquids and electricity


 
  
  
 I got you.. the deoxit is made for cleaning electronics /volume pots jack..etc
  
 some people say to let it dry overnight some say 10minutes or so... I have always gone w/ the 10 minutes messing about with many old amps / receivers no problems with it at all.
  
 after clean the headphone jack the 2nd time ..so far /touch wood .... so good the right channel hasn't be wonky with the headphones.. I know in my case it isn't the rca in plugs because the issue doesn't happen with the pre outs ..
  
 if it starts happening again... I'll clean the jack one more time and after that I'll probably open the thing up and see if there is solder issues with the jack..
  
 but few days now so good


----------



## Oskari

atarione said:


> if it starts happening again... I'll clean the jack one more time and after that I'll probably open the thing up and see if there is solder issues with the jack..




It could be the plug/cable having issues as well.


----------



## atarione

oskari said:


> It could be the plug/cable having issues as well.


 
  
  
 sure it could be.. but issue happens with all headphones and the headphones are fine with other amps... so pretty sure it is something w/ the DV


----------



## Oskari

atarione said:


> sure it could be.. but issue happens with all headphones and the headphones are fine with other amps... so pretty sure it is something w/ the DV




I agree with that.


----------



## atarione

ugh this darkvoice of mine started doing the right channel drop again.. just with headphones not with line out.. today again..    it is ticking me off,  I cleaned the jack again.. and now it is working again for the moment .. but I'm sensing opening this amp up to try to figure out what is going on coming...
  
 I really shouldn't have to be using contact cleaner on this jack every 3 days..


----------



## PeteBrooks

tyatya said:


> I minimize noise by using this below picture.
> The end part of rca cables was covered by alu tape and the tape contact to the ring of rca jack.
> Mostly zero noise at maximum gain when nothing connect to 3.5mm poles of the cable. The cable was 1.5m long and put on wall or ground.... any surface.
> Not zero noise but much much better than before implement the tape.


 
  
 Is this just a shielding thing, or does the tape help increase the connection at the plug / socket end of the cable to the DV? It's left me a bit confused .....


----------



## 41Venom14

atarione said:


> ugh this darkvoice of mine started doing the right channel drop again.. just with headphones not with line out.. today again..    it is ticking me off,  I cleaned the jack again.. and now it is working again for the moment .. but I'm sensing opening this amp up to try to figure out what is going on coming...
> 
> I really shouldn't have to be using contact cleaner on this jack every 3 days..


 
  
 Damn man, sorry to hear this is a constant problem. My DV has been sitting quiet and cool lately, haven't had much time to sit and listen to music so my Jotenheim has been getting all the attention lately..
  
 Unplug it, leave it sit for a couple minutes and crack her open to see if the connection is bad. I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult to swap out a new 1/4" jack, but that does depend on your skill level. 
  
 Keep the updates coming, hope you can figure it out. Sounds like you know what the issue is, hopefully its just the connector and not something else.


----------



## atarione

41venom14 said:


> Damn man, sorry to hear this is a constant problem. My DV has been sitting quiet and cool lately, haven't had much time to sit and listen to music so my Jotenheim has been getting all the attention lately..
> 
> Unplug it, leave it sit for a couple minutes and crack her open to see if the connection is bad. I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult to swap out a new 1/4" jack, but that does depend on your skill level.
> 
> Keep the updates coming, hope you can figure it out. Sounds like you know what the issue is, hopefully its just the connector and not something else.


 
  
  
 will do... so i cleaned the jack.. a few times now with the dexoit..  I will admit I'm afraid of jinxing myself ..  since the last time I cleaned the jack nearly a week ago.. the DV has been behaving with both channels again.
  
 I'm going on vac shortly so if I have to open this thing up it will be in a couple weeks ...because I have too much work / stuff to do before leaving..    but yeah if it does start up hopefully it is something not too problematic...


----------



## TYATYA

petebrooks said:


> Is this just a shielding thing, or does the tape help increase the connection at the plug / socket end of the cable to the DV? It's left me a bit confused .....




It is just a shielding improvement


----------



## TYATYA

I found tubes for HD800S (tube for HD650 dont suit) 
Pre tube : Shylavia 5692 brown base.
Power tube : Tungsol JAN-CTL-5998.
Good combination.


----------



## TYATYA

My game end with JAN-CTL-5998 Tungsol and JAN - CHS-6SN7GT Sylvania.
3.5 to RCA Furutech iD-35R 

When drive HD650, I find out that I wasted $ on HDVD800 amp. 
Paid in total : $250 for DV336se, $155 for tungsol, $ 65 for sylavian and $78 for furutech cable. 
I think Furutech 3.5 to rca did an excellent job to those tube


----------



## JohnBal

TYATYA said:


> My game end with JAN-CTL-5998 Tungsol and JAN - CHS-6SN7GT Sylvania.
> 3.5 to RCA Furutech iD-35R
> 
> When drive HD650, I find out that I wasted $ on HDVD800 amp.
> ...



It looks like you have some nice tubes there. Some of my favorites for sure!


----------



## atarione

So finally after months of fiddling w/ the cable from whatever headphones I was using.. I got well tired of my DV336SE dropping the right channel.  Using relevant caution and care I opened the thing up and tracked down a poor solder connection and managed to fix it... but since mine lasted all of a month before I started having trouble with it... I wouldn't ever recommend this amp..

if you can't fix it yourself.. or if you don't know people with tube amp repair experience or whatever anyways... oh well at least mine is working again..


----------



## UntilThen

Never had any problem with my DV336se even though I bought it 2nd hand. As with any gear, it's just the odd ball.


----------



## atarione

UntilThen said:


> Never had any problem with my DV336se even though I bought it 2nd hand. As with any gear, it's just the odd ball.



I mean fair enough.. but with this an a lot of the stuff from overseas you're really in a bad spot if you end up with the "odd ball" the fault with mine was pretty blatant and demonstrates a lack of QC as it shouldn't have left the factory like it did..  

If you don't have any experience with tube amps / diy skills this thing would either cost a fortune to send back for warranty service or cost you more than it cost to buy to get it serviced in the States (assuming you can find someone willing to work on it)...  or of course been landfill /doorstop..


----------



## attmci

?????????? I don't understand. 



atarione said:


> I mean fair enough.. but with this an a lot of the stuff from overseas you're really in a bad spot if you end up with the "odd ball" the fault with mine was pretty blatant and demonstrates a lack of QC as it shouldn't have left the factory like it did..
> 
> If you don't have any experience with tube amps / diy skills this thing would either cost a fortune to send back for warranty service or cost you more than it cost to buy to get it serviced in the States (assuming you can find someone willing to work on it)...  or of course been landfill /doorstop..


----------



## atarione

attmci said:


> ?????????? I don't understand.



I won't recommend this amp anymore.. after seeing the lack of QC ..as it is uneconomical to send it back to China for service and would cost more than the amp to have it worked on locally...

My amp should have never shipped with the poor QC/soldering work it did.. as such I wouldn't recommend this amp to others.


----------



## windcar

atarione said:


>




You are using one of those 6080. Stick with 6AS7 and your DV will last a very long time without issue.


----------



## UntilThen

I certainly can recommend DV 336se. Not every unit is a lemon. Any manufacturer can have some units that are defective. These amps are cheap but they don't sound nasty at all on the ears. Being cheap, QC could suffer a bit. However if you get a working unit, you'll be a happy man.

Roll in some nice tubes and hear this tube amp sing. You'll be impressed.

Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 black glass (most likely a National Union equivalent) and Gec 6as7g. DAC used is Yggy and headphone is HD800. Yup the DV 336se is not out of place with gear such as these. My main tube amps though are Elise and Euforia by Feliks Audio.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> I certainly can recommend DV 336se. Not every unit is a lemon. Any manufacturer can have some units that are defective. These amps are cheap but they don't sound nasty at all on the ears. Being cheap, QC could suffer a bit. However if you get a working unit, you'll be a happy man.
> 
> Roll in some nice tubes and hear this tube amp sing. You'll be impressed.
> 
> Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 black glass (most likely a National Union equivalent) and Gec 6as7g. DAC used is Yggy and headphone is HD800. Yup the DV 336se is not out of place with gear such as these. My main tube amps though are Elise and Euforia by Feliks Audio.



So can your elise and Eufiria justify the cost cwhen omparing to 336SE?


----------



## UntilThen

yangian said:


> So can your elise and Eufiria justify the cost cwhen omparing to 336SE?



Definitely. 

DV336se is outclassed by Elise and Euforia big time. Resolution, refinement, tonality and smoothness. The FA amps are in another league, especially Euforia. If I don't compare, DV336se sounds ok but once I listen to the FA amps, 336se sounds coarse and have the jagged edge roughness to the tone. However, it's a great introduction to OTL tube amps.

I've also listened to Woo Audio WA6 and WA2. I much prefer Elise and I greatly prefer Euforia. 

FYI, I also have the La Figaro 339 and I much prefer Euforia. 

Audio is very subjective though. Someone else may come along and present a different view point and that's ok. Everyone have their preferences.


----------



## atarione

windcar said:


> You are using one of those 6080. Stick with 6AS7 and your DV will last a very long time without issue.




It isn't a 6080 it is a straight bottle GE 6AS7GA ... I have a RCA Coke bottle 6AS7G also .. I prefer the GE one personally..


----------



## atarione

So thanx to my soldering prowess??? whatever.. my DV is working fine again.. however I still think the QC / build is iffy and I wouldn't buy one again.. or recommend it to anyone without the DIY skills to fix it if it eats it..

but it does sound nice when it is working certainly..  I think mine should be fine going forward /touch wood.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> Definitely.
> 
> DV336se is outclassed by Elise and Euforia big time. Resolution, refinement, tonality and smoothness. The FA amps are in another league, especially Euforia. If I don't compare, DV336se sounds ok but once I listen to the FA amps, 336se sounds coarse and have the jagged edge roughness to the tone. However, it's a great introduction to OTL tube amps.
> 
> ...



Thanks! So you said you much prefer Elise over Wa6 and wa2, but you only say you much prefer Euforia that LF339. So what do you think of Elise over 339, which has similar price range?
I also notice Euforia has the same circuit as Elise, just upgrade parts. How much improvement of Euforia over Elise?
Thanks


----------



## windcar

atarione said:


> It isn't a 6080 it is a straight bottle GE 6AS7GA ... I have a RCA Coke bottle 6AS7G also .. I prefer the GE one personally..



I have RCA 6AS7 and RCA 6080 and they both sounds different.  All 6080s I tried tend to be brighter and more analytical. 6080 also run hotter, much hotter.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 24, 2017)

yangian said:


> Thanks! So you said you much prefer Elise over Wa6 and wa2, but you only say you much prefer Euforia that LF339. So what do you think of Elise over 339, which has similar price range?
> I also notice Euforia has the same circuit as Elise, just upgrade parts. How much improvement of Euforia over Elise?
> Thanks



This will be off topic but I will do this only this once.

Firstly, one can't assume that Euforia and Elise have the same circuit. Circuit design differences are only known to the manufacturer. They are not identical in tone that's for sure. Euforia plays at several leagues above Elise. Obviously the new caps, resistors, sockets, silver wiring, circuit changes and tuning plays a big part.

It would be hard to be objective when comparing Elise and LF339. They are quite different in tone. 339 is harder hitting and more forceful. Takes warmer tubes to tame it with more warm and lushness. Which is why I couldn't understand over impressions that 339 is warm and lush. It is not. It has that metallic shine. Elise on the other hand sounded more refined and has more tube amp warm lushness. Both have good speed and fast transient response. Don't get me wrong. 339's metallic shine is actually very appealing. There's energy there and an upbeat tempo. Other differences are that 339 has a wider soundstage and more bass weight.

Euforia has a rich harmonic texture that conveys a classy tone, that is euphonic and holographic. The richness is very captivating. I like it a lot.

So in terms of preference, it's Euforia first, with Elise and La Figaro 339 tied for 2nd spot. As I said, Elise and LF339 are quite different voicing. One could like one or the other, depending on what your preference are.

One minor drawback on the 339 is that the amp runs very hot and the chassis is quite crude. The Feliks Audio amps are better constructed visually and it shows in the external feel and design.




Ps.... there no doubt that Euforia sounded better with HD800 than La Figaro 339.

With Euforia, HD800 sound natural, without fatigue. LF 339 with HD800 sound harder on the ears.

Even Elise pair better with HD800 than La Figaro.

HD650 though suits LF339 more. You gets the idea there? From this, you can suss out the tone of these amps.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> This will be off topic but I will do this only this once.
> 
> Ps.... there no doubt that Euforia sounded better with HD800 than La Figaro 339.
> 
> ...



Thank you so very much, UT!


----------



## UntilThen

yangian said:


> Thank you so very much, UT!



My pleasure... now go and buy a Euforia or Elise or La Figaro 339.

If you're unsure, just toss a coin. Heads it's Euforia, Tails it's La Figaro 339. If it lands in the middle, you know that Elise is meant for you.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> My pleasure... now go and buy a Euforia or Elise or La Figaro 339.
> 
> If you're unsure, just toss a coin. Heads it's Euforia, Tails it's La Figaro 339. If it lands in the middle, you know that Elise is meant for you.



Hahaha
Euforia is too expensive. I have no desiring to invest a HD800/S. For HD600, which one do you think better, 339 or Elise? You said 339 Has larger soundstage. So how about imaging, separation, and holographic sound? On Taobao, I saw two models of 339. One is silver, seems like yours and another is black. Black is an upgraded version, about $200 more than silver version (only $600 on Taobao). This version might be better than the original Elise.
Thank you!


----------



## UntilThen

yangian said:


> Hahaha
> Euforia is too expensive. I have no desiring to invest a HD800/S. For HD600, which one do you think better, 339 or Elise? You said 339 Has larger soundstage. So how about imaging, separation, and holographic sound? On Taobao, I saw two models of 339. One is silver, seems like yours and another is black. Black is an upgraded version, about $200 more than silver version (only $600 on Taobao). This version might be better than the original Elise.
> Thank you!



You know I'm an Elise fan but you're pushing more for an opinion.  

However I'm an honest man and you seemed an honest man too, so you will get an honest answer. How's that? 

I'm more a fan of HD650 than HD600. So my answer is based on your getting a HD650. 

If it's a HD650, get the La Figaro 339. Very few amps, whether ss or tube amps scale HD650 as much as LF339 does. Now Elise with HD650 or HD600 is very good too. Too good in fact but I just think that La Figaro 339 is exceptional when it comes to HD650. Seriously I am amazed that the LF339 isn't as well known as she should be and for a street price of $750 straight from the manufacturer, Yuking.

Certainly buy straight from Yuking and get the adapters for EF86 too. For tubes just get a pair of Mullard EF86 and RCA 6as7g. That's all you need. You can tube roll later.

Certainly get the upgrade 2013 onwards model. Silver or black is your choice. Also IMO, choose the 1st set of tubes, which is the clearer tubes. The 2nd set of tubes are warmer and might be a better match for your HD600.

As I said before, Elise and La figaro 339 are voiced differently. Deciding which I like better is very difficult. Today I might tell you I like LF339 better. Tomorrow I might tell you Elise is better. Now you know why I ask you to toss a coin. 

If you are in Sydney, Australia, you can come for an audition.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 24, 2017)

Elise is more refined, liquid and shines in the top end. She's more linear and does not emphasise any part of the FR. La Figaro 339 has more slam definitely, more brute power, amazing soundstage and bass weight is very gratifying.

Both are very revealing and holographic. It's hard not to love tube amp sound at this level and I doubt you'll need more.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> You know I'm an Elise fan but you're pushing more for an opinion.
> 
> However I'm an honest man and you seemed an honest man too, so you will get an honest answer. How's that?
> 
> ...



Haha
Thank you very much, UT!!
I think I'll go for a 339! I can buy it in China and bring back to US. Extra $100 is shipping for sure. 
Also thanks for the suggestion of tubes!


----------



## UntilThen

For your eyes only....

This EF86 adapters are not from Yuking. His are much nicer. So get his adapter.

Here I am using Mullard EF86 and RCA 6AS7G. The sound is gorgeous. Sooooooo goooooood....... on my modified HD650.


----------



## UntilThen

And after you buy La Figaro 339, buy this and live happily ever after.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> For your eyes only....
> 
> This EF86 adapters are not from Yuking. His are much nicer. So get his adapter.
> 
> Here I am using Mullard EF86 and RCA 6AS7G. The sound is gorgeous. Sooooooo goooooood....... on my modified HD650.



Oh, sure. Thanks!

For the DAC, I'm using Meridian Director and Zdac V2. I really like the Director!


----------



## UntilThen

yangian said:


> Oh, sure. Thanks!
> 
> For the DAC, I'm using Meridian Director and Zdac V2. I really like the Director!



No no I didn't say any DAC. I say Yggdrasil.


----------



## yangian

UntilThen said:


> No no I didn't say any DAC. I say Yggdrasil.



Hehe, I think you want to empty my wallet
As an end-game gear, I'll consider it!


----------



## ZJee

Ill be buying a 336se soon. I want the best tubes i can buy, i want them to make my music smoother, warmer, a bit more musical and "tubey" in general. What tubes should i look at buying?


----------



## UntilThen

ZJee said:


> Ill be buying a 336se soon. I want the best tubes i can buy, i want them to make my music smoother, warmer, a bit more musical and "tubey" in general. What tubes should i look at buying?



You don't want to know because the best tubes I'll be recommending will be expensive.

However, there are less expensive options. Just get a RCA 6as7g and a Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base. They shouldn't cost that much.

These are the Tung Sol drivers
 

and the RCA power tubes


----------



## ZJee

UntilThen said:


> You don't want to know because the best tubes I'll be recommending will be expensive.
> 
> However, there are less expensive options. Just get a RCA 6as7g and a Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base. They shouldn't cost that much.
> 
> ...



Thanks, ill look at those. I wont be buying hyper expensive tubes for it any time soon, but i may in the future. What are your more higher end recommendations?


----------



## Odor trader

Is there a sonic difference between the 336i and 336SE? If so, how would it affect tubes, in general?


----------



## Simmons572 (Jul 5, 2017)

Howdy folks.  Been lurking these forums for a while now, and now that I have some hardware coming my way, I figured I should touch base with the experts! 

I've got a used pair of HD 650s shipping to my house, and should be here in a couple weeks.  I also am strongly considering picking up a preowned Massdrop Darkvoice 336SE OTL, which a coworker wants to sell to me for ~$100.

After reading through this thread, it appears that this combination is fairly common, with room for improvement.  This will be my first tube amp, so I am flying blind, and could use all the help I can get.

My music preferred genres include Jazz, Early Country (Johnny Cash, John Denver), Bluegrass (Steve n' Seagulls), Reggae (Bob Marley, Toots and the Maytals), 70's-80's Rock, modern Alt Rock (Phoenix, Hippo Campus), and deep EDM. As of late, I've been bingeing on Drum N' Bass, and some pre-2008 era dubstep. ((I am sorry, that's probably as clear as mud..))
My preferred sound signature is extended bass, punchy mid-bass, and clear, crisp highs. A audio nerd friend of mine once described it as "the stereotypical Bose sound signature".  I don't like the mids to be super in-your-face, but I don't like them to be scooped hard either  ((I hope this makes sense))

I am super intrigued with tube rolling, and would be interested and getting some recommendations for some replacement tubes to explore.  I am willing to spend up to $125 to try out some "new" tubes, and I would be willing to experiment a bit, if you all think that would be a good idea.

I am all ears, and open to suggestions! 

EDIT:  I've been eyeballing the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top, as they appear to be fairly inexpensive on ebay land, and they appear to favor the add to the lows and highs (according to the reviews that I have read so far).  Does this sound like a good suggestion? And will I need an adapter for it?

Also, what would be a good tube to replace the 6N5PJ tube? I've seen the 6AS7G Chatham mentioned a few times, but I can't find a lot of information about it.


----------



## TYATYA

Simmons572 said:


> Howdy folks.  Been lurking these forums for a while now, and now that I have some hardware coming my way, I figured I should touch base with the experts!
> 
> I've got a used pair of HD 650s shipping to my house, and should be here in a couple weeks.  I also am strongly considering picking up a preowned Massdrop Darkvoice 336SE OTL, which a coworker wants to sell to me for ~$100.
> 
> ...



HD650 and DV336se. 
Same to me.
I upgrade these :
RCA cable : silver plated of furutech(Alpha design lab ADL-i35R)
Headphone  wire : 7N copper wire diy, 300 threads in each core, for hd650.
Tubes: JAN- CTL-5998 tungsol for output tube.
JAN-CHS-6SN7GT shylavian for input tube.
I jugde effective of each updrade : 
Hp wire 40% : much improve detail for hd650, bass fuller and deeper
Tubes 30% : much much more clairy than stock tubes
Rca cable 30%: improve clarity, detail. Treble is crytial clear.

Find a updrage tube with $125 is not easy, I think. Output tube usually 150 on Ebay.
$125 is for input tube enough


----------



## JediMa70 (Jul 13, 2017)

I just got it today and with the big tube broken so more than roll tubes I would like to get a cheap replacement in order that i can use it. Can you please help me?

is this one ok? http://www.ebay.it/itm/1x-Svetlana-c-6H13C-6AS7G-NOS-NEW-Röhre-Tube-Valvola/302329939227?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


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## Trancedoc (Jul 16, 2017)

That is what I usually use, and it sounds great for the price.  You could get a Chatham 6as7g which will sound somewhat better but cost me about 5 times more ($100 US).


----------



## UntilThen

Try this Chatham 6080wb graphite plates. It's lips smackingly good.


----------



## UntilThen

Then try this GEC 6080 for some ecstasy.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 16, 2017)

If there's any money left, buy these Tung Sol 5998 for youth rejuvenation.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally, if you discover a pot of gold in your backyard, buy these GEC 6as7g.


----------



## mmf1

Anyone used Raytheon's VT-231 on the Darkvoice?


----------



## UntilThen

Yup I have the black glass and its very good.


----------



## mmf1

The Raytheon comes in the black glass?


----------



## UntilThen

My Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 black glass is unique. It could be a National Union 6sn7gt vt231 equivalent rather than the actual Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231.

Here's a picture of it with Gec 6as7g. It's a lovely sounding combination.


----------



## Simmons572

@UntilThen You've posted quite a few pictures of the tubes, but not much else. Would you please provide us more information on how the tubes sound?


----------



## UntilThen

Simmons572 said:


> @UntilThen You've posted quite a few pictures of the tubes, but not much else. Would you please provide us more information on how the tubes sound?



I will post this link. It's still a work in progress. I may change some wordings and will add more power tubes gradually. I have the whole range of power tubes. Just need to do the write up.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/page-14#post-13601365


----------



## mmf1

Anyone experience the left channel being louder than the right?


----------



## UntilThen

Nope


----------



## mmf1

I just recently noticed it happening... like it's very subtle if I am using headphones, but gets a lot more noticeable when using it as a preamp for speakers.

I'll try a few different tubes to see if it's that.


----------



## ZJee

So ive been playing with the 336se that i got lately along with its stock tubes, and the RCA 6as7g and a Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base upgrade tubes that i bought for it, and i really dont like either of them. They both seem to color the bass and mid range a bit, the upgrades more so, but neither of them add any type of warmth or smoothness that i really wanted. My bright shrill headphones are still just as bright and shrill with the 336se as any other solid state amp ive used. Even my neuteral headphones can still get bright and sharp with it, almost as if the tubes do nothing to improve it. Im not sure if im asking too much, or thats simply not how tubes are supposed to sound, but what i mainly wanted was it to make my phones sound much warmer and much smoother. Before icall the amp a loss and sell it id like to give some other tubes a shot. 

So i ask, what are the absolute warmest and smoothest tubes on the face of the earth i can possibly get for this amp?


----------



## bwcgrx

ZJee said:


> So ive been playing with the 336se that i got lately along with its stock tubes, and the RCA 6as7g and a Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base upgrade tubes that i bought for it, and i really dont like either of them. They both seem to color the bass and mid range a bit, the upgrades more so, but neither of them add any type of warmth or smoothness that i really wanted. My bright shrill headphones are still just as bright and shrill with the 336se as any other solid state amp ive used. Even my neuteral headphones can still get bright and sharp with it, almost as if the tubes do nothing to improve it. Im not sure if im asking too much, or thats simply not how tubes are supposed to sound, but what i mainly wanted was it to make my phones sound much warmer and much smoother. Before icall the amp a loss and sell it id like to give some other tubes a shot.
> 
> So i ask, what are the absolute warmest and smoothest tubes on the face of the earth i can possibly get for this amp?




ZJee, what headphones are you using with the 336se.  I ask because the Darkvoice as it is an OTL design is really made for high impedance headphones.

I only listen through the 336se with my higher impedance Sennheiser HD600 and HD650, Beyer T90, DT880 etc.  Most of the low impedance headphones I've tried with it sound much thinner which makes them bright and lacking in bass response.

The RCA 6as7 is fairly warm sounding and it does seem to have more bass than other tubes and most Tung Sol 6sn7 i've used sound quite nice. I have a fondness for the flat plate Raytheon 6sn7 however as I feel it is a bit smoother and more neutral than most other 6sn7 tubes.  Based on how shrill you describe the sound I don't know that the tubes or the amp itself are the issue.  Where is your music sourced from?  Streaming service? low bitrate MP3.  The actual source quality itself, the music, makes the largest difference after a certain hardware quality point.  As in my opinion the 336se when feed a quality signal does sound exceedingly good.


----------



## ZJee

bwcgrx said:


> ZJee, what headphones are you using with the 336se.  I ask because the Darkvoice as it is an OTL design is really made for high impedance headphones.
> 
> I only listen through the 336se with my higher impedance Sennheiser HD600 and HD650, Beyer T90, DT880 etc.  Most of the low impedance headphones I've tried with it sound much thinner which makes them bright and lacking in bass response.
> 
> The RCA 6as7 is fairly warm sounding and it does seem to have more bass than other tubes and most Tung Sol 6sn7 i've used sound quite nice. I have a fondness for the flat plate Raytheon 6sn7 however as I feel it is a bit smoother and more neutral than most other 6sn7 tubes.  Based on how shrill you describe the sound I don't know that the tubes or the amp itself are the issue.  Where is your music sourced from?  Streaming service? low bitrate MP3.  The actual source quality itself, the music, makes the largest difference after a certain hardware quality point.  As in my opinion the 336se when feed a quality signal does sound exceedingly good.




I see, ive heard many different things said about impedance and OTL tube amps so i wasnt sure. I tried it with a warmer DAC and my 600 ohm K240 and it got the best results of any other combo ive tried, but its still not quite what i wanted. 

My music is either flac from tidal, flac ive ripped from my own cds, or the cds themselfes. I know my rips or tidal arent the issue because they both sound spectacular on my NFB 11. 

I think the amp may just not be what im looking for, or perhaps im looking for something that doesnt exist. Ill probably end up selling it and perhaps buying a wa6 or something similar that should work better with low impedance phones down the road. Either way thanks for your help.


----------



## bwcgrx

ZJee said:


> I see, ive heard many different things said about impedance and OTL tube amps so i wasnt sure. I tried it with a warmer DAC and my 600 ohm K240 and it got the best results of any other combo ive tried, but its still not quite what i wanted.
> 
> My music is either flac from tidal, flac ive ripped from my own cds, or the cds themselfes. I know my rips or tidal arent the issue because they both sound spectacular on my NFB 11.
> 
> I think the amp may just not be what im looking for, or perhaps im looking for something that doesnt exist. Ill probably end up selling it and perhaps buying a wa6 or something similar that should work better with low impedance phones down the road. Either way thanks for your help.




I too use a combination of FLAC I've ripped from my CD collection and Tidal, along with SACD rips and a few blu-ray audio rips.  I've found that some of Tidal's lossless streams sound excellent and others sound rather less so.

It would appear that the Darkvoice may not be your cup of tea considering that you get good results on the NFB 11.  Out of curiosity what DACs have you used to feed the 336se?  I assume the NFB 11 itself may be one of them.


----------



## ZJee

bwcgrx said:


> I too use a combination of FLAC I've ripped from my CD collection and Tidal, along with SACD rips and a few blu-ray audio rips.  I've found that some of Tidal's lossless streams sound excellent and others sound rather less so.
> 
> It would appear that the Darkvoice may not be your cup of tea considering that you get good results on the NFB 11.  Out of curiosity what DACs have you used to feed the 336se?  I assume the NFB 11 itself may be one of them.



I used the nfb 11 which is quite neuteral, and a modded ps1 as a cd player, which is a lot better than you may think. Its quite a bit warmer and sounded a bit better. Still not amazing. I love warmth and smoothness and the way tubes color sound, it just seems asthough it doesnt convert my colder headphones into warmer ones, and the warmer ones i already have are already perfect with my NFB 11.  The amp just doesnt quite fit in or change anything in a way id like it to. Im definately not giving up on tubes but i feel like this amp is a bust, and i probably wont buy another OTL tube amp without trying it first. Maybe one day ill find that one tube amp that will make all my shrill headphones nice and relaxing.


----------



## JediMa70

I've started to roll some tube (cheap ones for the moment... ) and I can say that any of them is better than stock ones.
I love the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB Tall Bottle Tube Black Plates  as front one
About power ones.. none is so good but for the moment I like more 6as7ga GE USA white print 6080 NOS VALVOLA TUBE 1pc j17 because of nice warm sound and good bass, while i' m totally disappointed from  6H13C Svetlana Winged-C (6N13S - 6AS7G)  ... really flat and harsh sound and no bass 
This is my  humble noobish review.. I've read many replies to this thread but what i can't find it's a power Tube with an average price, there few around 20 usd and few over 100.. did I miss something?


----------



## mmf1

Look for the RCA 6AS7G grey plates. There should be a few on eBay for around $30.


Has anyone tried the Mullard 6080's on the Darkvoice? I'm a bit reluctant on dropping $50 for a 6080.


----------



## JediMa70

mmf1 said:


> Look for the RCA 6AS7G grey plates. There should be a few on eBay for around $30.
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried the Mullard 6080's on the Darkvoice? I'm a bit reluctant on dropping $50 for a 6080.



Thanks alot, at the moment there are only black plates one for that price, I will wait for the grey ones


----------



## Ethenolas

Hey everyone!

Headphone novice...  Bought a set of PS500's a while back which I enjoy.  Running a Matrix M-Stage and recently purchased a Dark Voice and interested in swapping out some of the tubes. 
Source is chromecast, marantz cd player, or Rega record player.  My primary goal is to match them as well with the Grado PS500s as best I can.  Right now, the PS500s have a bit of a harsher high end than I'd like and though the bass is big, the mids are not as clean or defined as I'd like.   So...  Any recommendation on some tubes that would tame the highs and give me a little more clean, defined and punchy midbass?

Thanks for the recommendations, appreciate the help.

-E


----------



## UntilThen

It's time to say goodbye to my Darkvoice 336se. Since I already have Euforia by Feliks Audio and Schiit Ragnarok, I couldn't justify keeping the DV336se and not using it. It is a very good intro OTL amp and at that price, it's a killer. I have enjoyed my time with it immensely. It is what got me really started with head-fi. Now I sold it for AUD$220 including the RCA 6sn7gtb and Chatham 6080wb solid graphite plates. It will make the new owner very happy.


----------



## dobigstuff

Just purchased a Darkvoice 336 SE.  I am the second owner.  Still checking things out but right now I settled on these Tubes:  USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB Tall Bottle Driver Tube and USA NOS Jan RCA 6AS7 Power Tube.  Tons of Bass, Mids are smooth, Highs not bright.  Gobs of Gain.  I use it with the HD 700's.


----------



## UntilThen

dobigstuff said:


> Just purchased a Darkvoice 336 SE. I am the second owner. Still checking things out but right now I settled on these Tubes: USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB Tall Bottle Driver Tube and USA NOS Jan RCA 6AS7 Power Tube. Tons of Bass, Mids are smooth, Highs not bright. Gobs of Gain. I use it with the HD 700's.



Enjoy. Those are warm and lush tubes and very enjoyable. Should sound really good with HD700. Be careful though because DV336se will suck you into tube amps so much, you will find yourself upgrading in no time.


----------



## dobigstuff

UntilThen said:


> Enjoy. Those are warm and lush tubes and very enjoyable. Should sound really good with HD700. Be careful though because DV336se will suck you into tube amps so much, you will find yourself upgrading in no time.


Thanks.......Already There.













I do want to get a USA NOS Tung-Sol 5998 for the Darkvoice.  They are hard to find.


----------



## dobigstuff

UntilThen said:


> Enjoy. Those are warm and lush tubes and very enjoyable. Should sound really good with HD700. Be careful though because DV336se will suck you into tube amps so much, you will find yourself upgrading in no time.


UntilThen:

I have also tried the RCA 6SN7 (not as much Bass) and the Sylvania 6SN7 (Smooth as heck and Quiet)  See below when I had them in the Little Dot MK III.  But NOS Tung-Sol beats them all so far.


----------



## UntilThen

@dobigstuff  I hear you.  I've roll lots of tubes in DV336se, Elise and Euforia. These days I've stop rolling and just use Yggdrasil and Ragnarok. I still use my Euforia with the multitude of tubes that I have.

Here's a sample of what I have.


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## Jim Spec

Subscribing


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## Usejimmy (Sep 7, 2017)

Hi

I have recently bought a Darkvoice 336SE and Aune X1S thats combined using 2x RCA cables betwen them to get the best out of the Darkvoice

Im using a Sennheiser HD 800S and wondering if this tubes is any good?

I wanna tame the Sharp Highs a little bit on the HD 800s and still keeping the soundstage and clarity, bass is welcoming if its not bloating the clear sound of HD 800S

VINTAGE TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB BLACK PLATE TALL BOTTLE D-GETTER VACUUM TUBE  -  http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TUNG-SOL-6SN7GTB-BLACK-PLATE-TALL-BOTTLE-D-GETTER-VACUUM-TUBE/162638314642?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7GT Black Plate Balanced Vacuum Tube Hickok Tested 122%.126%  -  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-JAN-CHS-6SN7GT-Black-Plate-Balanced-Vacuum-Tube-Hickok-Tested-122-126/263178198427?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


NOS 1960s' Sovtek 6AS7G Power Tube Woo WA2 Darkvoice 6H13C for Sylvania
 -  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1960s-Sovtek-6AS7G-Power-Tube-Woo-WA2-Darkvoice-6H13C-for-Sylvania/152593697081?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Other recommendations is welcoming!


----------



## UntilThen

Usejimmy said:


> Hi
> 
> I have recently bought a Darkvoice 336SE and Aune X1S thats combined using 2x RCA cables betwen them to get the best out of the Darkvoice
> 
> ...



No harm trying those tubes. The Tung Sol and Sylvania 6sn7s have different tones. Try it for yourself. You will probably like it.

The Sovtek 6as7g is really a Svetlana 6h13c which is ok for the price. Not bad. To get more warm and lush tones, try a RCA 6as7g.


----------



## Jim Spec

I have a Darkvoice 336se and I love it but secretly covet the Sennheiser HD 800s.  Not to be critical, but if I could afford those phones I would not be listening to them via the Darkvoice.  There are several good amps to improve your listening experience over the Darkvoice. By the way I too quite enjoy the sound of the RCA 6as7g.  Best to you in your search for the right tube, JS


----------



## dobigstuff

I am checking out this combo:




NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver with NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power.  So far Bass is Deeeep and soundstage is wide.  Will keep you posted.


----------



## diivve

this is a noob question, changing rhe power tube will make this amp more dynamic right? Im using stock tube


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

diivve said:


> this is a noob question, changing rhe power tube will make this amp more dynamic right? Im using stock tube


When taking power consumption measurements on my dark voice from the stock tube my dark voice was drawing 53 W after changing the power tube to an RCA  New old stock my power consumption went up to 60 W. You hear the difference a few extra watts are doing work somewhere . With all the old new stock power tubes I've tested from the 1940s to the 1960s power in watts we're all equal at about 60 W dead on.


----------



## gvl2016

diivve said:


> this is a noob question, changing rhe power tube will make this amp more dynamic right? Im using stock tube



Dynamic is probably not the right word, but the tone or coloration of the sound will change, clarity too.


----------



## Usejimmy (Sep 8, 2017)

Jim Spec said:


> I have a Darkvoice 336se and I love it but secretly covet the Sennheiser HD 800s.  Not to be critical, but if I could afford those phones I would not be listening to them via the Darkvoice.  There are several good amps to improve your listening experience over the Darkvoice. By the way I too quite enjoy the sound of the RCA 6as7g.  Best to you in your search for the right tube, JS


I understand that the Darkvoice isn't the best out there and I would like your opinion for another Tube or solid state amp that you think is a better choice. I love the HD 800S and have never heard a more airy and clear headphone!
I tend to like the warmth and sound stage that the Tubes gives me over the more flat sound of my Aune X1S, and would like just a touch more bass in the HD 800S without ruining the clear sound.


----------



## Jim Spec

I just do not have the funds to play in that high end game.  I am only recently into headphones.  My speakers system is made up of Meridian and Oppo components.  I plan on my next upgrade to include the Bottlehead Crack w/speedball.  I currently use Sennheiser HD600 and have ordered a pair of HD650x from Massdrop.  When I can get a good used pair at a reasonable price, I would like to go to the 800s.

I also bought my Darkvoice used.  I did however, not get a manual with it.  Do you per chance have a PDF file of the manual.  I would sure like to acquire one.

Best, JS


----------



## yangian

ThermalAlchemy said:


> When taking power consumption measurements on my dark voice from the stock tube my dark voice was drawing 53 W after changing the power tube to an RCA  New old stock my power consumption went up to 60 W. You hear the difference a few extra watts are doing work somewhere . With all the old new stock power tubes I've tested from the 1940s to the 1960s power in watts we're all equal at about 60 W dead on.



Do you know what's the power of the transformer?


----------



## Usejimmy

Jim Spec said:


> I just do not have the funds to play in that high end game.  I am only recently into headphones.  My speakers system is made up of Meridian and Oppo components.  I plan on my next upgrade to include the Bottlehead Crack w/speedball.  I currently use Sennheiser HD600 and have ordered a pair of HD650x from Massdrop.  When I can get a good used pair at a reasonable price, I would like to go to the 800s.
> 
> I also bought my Darkvoice used.  I did however, not get a manual with it.  Do you per chance have a PDF file of the manual.  I would sure like to acquire one.
> 
> Best, JS


Sry i dident get any PDF when i bought mine on ebay.


----------



## Jim Spec

Thanks very much for your reply.  Do you intend to do any modifications to the Darkvoice?  If so, what are you planning.


----------



## coolcrew23

So i just ordered the darkvoice 336se online. Heard that stock tubes aren't worth it. Will be in Osaka Japan this week. Any place i can order tubes and what would be recommended with use with Sennheiser HD6XX


----------



## Jim Spec

I highly recommend the 6f8g. Although it is starting to become scarce, it is still available in short supply on ebay.  It is quite a sweet sounding tube without being gushy.  You will need an adapter for it because of the top contact.  Any of the better quality 6080 tubes are good and readily available.  Best, JS


----------



## coolcrew23

Jim Spec said:


> I highly recommend the 6f8g. Although it is starting to become scarce, it is still available in short supply on ebay.  It is quite a sweet sounding tube without being gushy.  You will need an adapter for it because of the top contact.  Any of the better quality 6080 tubes are good and readily available.  Best, JS



Thank sir. Will search for these.


----------



## Jim Spec

Just because I am in my mid-70s you don't need to call me sir.  Best, JS


----------



## dobigstuff

coolcrew23 said:


> So i just ordered the darkvoice 336se online. Heard that stock tubes aren't worth it. Will be in Osaka Japan this week. Any place i can order tubes and what would be recommended with use with Sennheiser HD6XX



Coolcrew23:

I am using this combo:
NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver with NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power.

I have the HD 700's


----------



## Jim Spec

That should sound quite good.  I am not familiar with the 7236 power tube but will look into it.  It must be a cousin of the 6080.  Should you decide to sell you HD700s reasonably, I would be interested.


----------



## coolcrew23

Jim Spec said:


> Just because I am in my mid-70s you don't need to call me sir.  Best, JS



Didn't mean to offend. 

Cheers! Appreciate the help. This tube-rolling thing excites me!


----------



## dobigstuff (Sep 17, 2017)

Jim Spec said:


> That should sound quite good. I am not familiar with the 7236 power tube but will look into it. It must be a cousin of the 6080


Jim Spec:

Yes the 7236 and the 5998 Tubes have more power than the 6AS7's.  I have not found the Western Electric 421A yet.  They are supposed to be the best.


----------



## dobigstuff

Changing it up right now.  Trying this setup:





NOS JAN Sylvania 5998A Power, NOS Sylvania 6SN7 Driver.  So far this combo is not bright.  Very warm.  Still has power as well.


----------



## Rafa Rocks

Hello! 

I want to know if you tested the following tubes and if they are good options for the DV:

1-GE 6AS7GA:











2-Thomson CSF 6080WA FSE 8044 FF

3-GE JAN 6080 WC

Thank you

Rafa


----------



## dobigstuff

Rafa:

For my power tubes I have only used the RCA and the NOS JAN RCA Tall Bottle 6AS7.  I have recently been using the NOS Tung-Sol 7263 or the NOS Sylvania 5998A.  For Drivers I have used various NOS 6SN7's like RCA, Sylvania, Tung-Sol.  Basically because most of the reviews were positive for those tubes so I stick with them.


----------



## Jim Spec

I have not used the Thomson CSF 6080WA FSE 8044 FF.  However I believe the others to be quite good.  My DV has bit the dust in one channel.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Jim Spec said:


> I have not used the Thomson CSF 6080WA FSE 8044 FF.  However I believe the others to be quite good.  My DV has bit the dust in one channel.


 This is a good excuse and perfect timing to tear apart your DarkVoice  and completely do all the known modifications to mankind . I've been dying for excuse to take mine apart.


----------



## Jim Spec

Sounds like a great idea if I only knew where to start.


----------



## Jim Spec

While I cannot do it myself, I believe your suggestion to be a good one.  So, perhaps I could find a good technician that could perform all the work for me.  With that in mind, do you have a list or know where I could find a list of the useful modifications on the Darkvoice.  Thanks in advance for your help and your good advice, JS


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Jim Spec said:


> While I cannot do it myself, I believe your suggestion to be a good one.  So, perhaps I could find a good technician that could perform all the work for me.  With that in mind, do you have a list or know where I could find a list of the useful modifications on the Darkvoice.  Thanks in advance for your help and your good advice, JS


It's rather time-consuming but I  did read through all the posts about the DarkVoice including this thread about to  Rolling.  There are some capacitors to be replaced that will give you quicker and better base response.  There's also a post about changing the volume pot,  and changing the transformer amongst a few other minor changes this information is spread out amongst many post of individuals who've done modifications to the DarkVoice.  Keep in mind this is a hobby and the modifications exceed the cost of a brand new DarkVoice.  This is something as a DIY person I would do, but for someone who didn't mind spending the money find somebody to do it for you. There are those who argue at that price point you're better off just buying something more expensive and better.  But if you're the person like myself who just want something unique and doesn't mind having to 69 Camaro and then throwing another $40,000 into it to make it a super Camaro,  but that 69 Camaro still will not outperform and be as reliable or comfortable as a 2018 top-of-the-line Camaro. 
       As for me my dark voice that I got from MASSDROP for $199.  I will do all the hot  rodding  trick out features possible  (money no obstacle) to make my dark voice one extreme example  while retaining a stock look on the outside.


----------



## Jim Spec

I really appreciate your email.  The darkvoice is the best amp I have ever had.  I do not know what went wrong.  I have only had it a couple of months.  Bought it used.  I did change tubes while the amp was turned off but not unplugged. This might have been my downfall.  With the cost of the modifications I could have a used Bottlehead Crack.  What would be your advice on that.  Best, JS


----------



## 41Venom14 (Sep 16, 2017)

@Jim Spec I do not believe the swapping of tubes while it is off, but not unplugged would be your downfall (considering that is the only way I swap tubes). Unfortunately the product is made in China and, well, yeah that's all that needs to be said.

This reminds me of MY issue with the DV when the right channel cut out for no reason. I went through and checked my sources. Ended up being the DAC that was causing the issue and once reset, right channel came back like nothing happened. Swap the left and right plugs on your cables to see if the issue is still in the right channel or if it switched the to the left. Means your cables are good or bad depending on if the issue swapped channels. Then turn off or unplug your DAC, turn it back on, and see if the issue is still there. If it still does not work, it means you are out of luck and it is most likely a hardware issue.

I also built the Bottlehead Crack amp (speedball upgrade purchased, not yet installed) and it sounds great. Took me and my meticulous self 7 to 8 hours of building, amazing. Better than the DV? Maybe, I have not had a chance to compare them A-B style, but it certainly sounds damn good.

I would highly suggest the Bottlehead amp if you are looking for a project, if not, there are other tube amps that are as good or better than the DV.


----------



## Jim Spec

Again, I appreciate very much your helpful information, JS


----------



## dobigstuff

Back to the Tung-Sol Combo:





NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power with NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver.  I had to go back to this combo.  Wide Soundstage, Powerful Bass, Mids and Highs are perfect (not too bright)


----------



## Scutey

dobigstuff said:


> Back to the Tung-Sol Combo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi dobigstuff how ya doin?. Just ordered a new, DV looking forward to giving that some time, also bought a couple tubes to replace the stock, a nos Tung Sol 6sn7gtb and an RCA 6as7g. How do you find the DV compared to the LD MKIII ?, I know it largely depends on the tubes in use but I was wondering what the underlying sound signature of the DV is compared to the LD. BTW do you still have the LD?.  Also has anyone tried GE 6as7ga and are the 6080 variants any good?, any recommendations would be greatly received!.


----------



## dobigstuff

Scutey said:


> Hi dobigstuff how ya doin?. Just ordered a new, DV looking forward to giving that some time, also bought a couple tubes to replace the stock, a nos Tung Sol 6sn7gtb and an RCA 6as7g. How do you find the DV compared to the LD MKIII ?, I know it largely depends on the tubes in use but I was wondering what the underlying sound signature of the DV is compared to the LD. BTW do you still have the LD?.  Also has anyone tried GE 6as7ga and are the 6080 variants any good?, any recommendations would be greatly received!.



Scutey:
Doing good.  How about you?  Still Rollin' I see.
I do still have the Little Dot MK III with the NOS Tall Bottle USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Power Tubes and the C3G Drivers.  This setup is warmer than the Darkvoice.  The Darkvoice has more power and goes a little deeper.  (I have the HD 700's)  

As far as tubes for the Darkvoice so far I have tried these Power Tubes:

NOS JAN RCA 6AS7
NOS JAN Sylvania 5998
NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236
For Driver Tubes I have tried:


NOS RCA 6SN7
NOS Sylvania 6SN7
NOS USA Tall Bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7
Russian Tung-Sol (left Channel hum, people say after burn in it disappears but I don't have the patience)
Best Combo thus far:
NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power with NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver.  They say the Western Electric 421A Power or the Tall coke bottle NOS USA Tung-Sol 5998 are two of the best.


----------



## Scutey

dobigstuff said:


> Scutey:
> Doing good.  How about you?  Still Rollin' I see.
> I do still have the Little Dot MK III with the NOS Tall Bottle USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Power Tubes and the C3G Drivers.  This setup is warmer than the Darkvoice.  The Darkvoice has more power and goes a little deeper.  (I have the HD 700's)
> 
> ...


Yeah pretty good. Thanks for the info will have a look at those tubes they look very interesting.
As for the tube rolling, as i'm sure you know, once you're bitten, there's no way back!.


----------



## coolcrew23

Thanks for everyone in this thread. Was able to get my DV and immediately upgraded my tubes. Currently using VSI 6SN7 and JAN RCA 6AS7. The VSI has no reviews or feedback. Good so far.


----------



## Scutey

Well I've gone a bit mad with the tube rolling... Power RCA 6as7g, drivers RCA 6sn7 gt grey glass, Syl 6sn7 gtb and Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb tall bottle, and I haven't even got it yet!.


----------



## coolcrew23

Scutey said:


> Well I've gone a bit mad with the tube rolling... Power RCA 6as7g, drivers RCA 6sn7 gt grey glass, Syl 6sn7 gtb and Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb tall bottle, and I haven't even got it yet!.



i need to control this madness!! or should i let it consume me?!?! haha!

just curious. currently using an audioquest dragonfly red with these. what would be the best dac to use? has anyone tried the mojo?


----------



## Scutey

coolcrew23 said:


> i need to control this madness!! or should i let it consume me?!?! haha!
> 
> just curious. currently using an audioquest dragonfly red with these. what would be the best dac to use? has anyone tried the mojo?


Lol I think once you've been bitten by the tube bug there's no going back!.


----------



## Scutey

Just ordered a Sylvania 6sn7 gt grey glass. Does anyone have any experience with this, or the clear glass version in a DV?.


----------



## dobigstuff

Scutey said:


> Just ordered a Sylvania 6sn7 gt grey glass. Does anyone have any experience with this, or the clear glass version in a DV?.


Scutey:
Just ordered a Western Electric 421A Power Tube for the Darkvoice.  I will let you know how it is once I get it.


----------



## Scutey

Yes would be interested to hear about that, should be a very nice addition. BTW my DV arrived today, been burning in the stock tubes, they actually sound ok with what I've been listening to, though tomorrow I should get my RCA 6as7g and the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb, looking forward to giving them a go!


----------



## coolcrew23

Scutey said:


> Yes would be interested to hear about that, should be a very nice addition. BTW my DV arrived today, been burning in the stock tubes, they actually sound ok with what I've been listening to, though tomorrow I should get my RCA 6as7g and the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb, looking forward to giving them a go!



Planning exactly the same set-up. Have the RCA 6AS7 already and waiting for the Tung Sol.


----------



## Scutey

Well that's good we can do a compare, I'm hoping the tung sol and the rca arrive today, and next week, hopefully!, arriving a Chatham 6as7g, Rca 6sn7gt grey glass, Sylvania 6sn7gt grey glass and a Syl 6080wb, so I should have plenty to keep me out of mischief!.

On another note I'm experiencing the infamous DV hum, it's quite loud even stood 6 feet from the unit, however once the headphones are on and music is playing I don't hear it even in quiet passages, is this similar to others experiences?,  I  am intending to take out the power tube and burn in the driver, it will also be interesting to see what happens when the old stock tubes arrive.


----------



## coolcrew23

Scutey said:


> Well that's good we can do a compare, I'm hoping the tung sol and the rca arrive today, and next week, hopefully!, arriving a Chatham 6as7g, Rca 6sn7gt grey glass, Sylvania 6sn7gt grey glass and a Syl 6080wb, so I should have plenty to keep me out of mischief!.
> 
> On another note I'm experiencing the infamous DV hum, it's quite loud even stood 6 feet from the unit, however once the headphones are on and music is playing I don't hear it even in quiet passages, is this similar to others experiences?,  I  am intending to take out the power tube and burn in the driver, it will also be interesting to see what happens when the old stock tubes arrive.



This sounds awesome! Will just stick with what I have for now. Try getting the VSI 6SN7. Not as well known but it’s pretty clean sounding and has a little bass punch. 

The hum just needs burning in. Take out the power tube and leave on til it’s gone.


----------



## dobigstuff

Scutey:
Once you get those NOS Tubes you should not experience that slight hum.  I am dying to burn in the New Russian Tung-Sol 6SN7 because the Left to Right Balance is great but the Buzz in the left is loud.  Everyone says it does go away.


----------



## dobigstuff

Giving the Western Electric 421A Power a try now.  Initial observations:  Powerful, Deep Bass Huge Soundstage.  (Will keep you posted)


----------



## Oskari

coolcrew23 said:


> Try getting the VSI 6SN7.


This is a brand I do not know. What can you tell us about it? Can you show photos?


----------



## Scutey

coolcrew23 said:


> This sounds awesome! Will just stick with what I have for now. Try getting the VSI 6SN7. Not as well known but it’s pretty clean sounding and has a little bass punch.
> 
> The hum just needs burning in. Take out the power tube and leave on til it’s gone.


Not heard of that one,thanks for the recommend, I will look into it.


----------



## Scutey

dobigstuff said:


> Scutey:
> Once you get those NOS Tubes you should not experience that slight hum.  I am dying to burn in the New Russian Tung-Sol 6SN7 because the Left to Right Balance is great but the Buzz in the left is loud.  Everyone says it does go away.





dobigstuff said:


> Giving the Western Electric 421A Power a try now.  Initial observations:  Powerful, Deep Bass Huge Soundstage.  (Will keep you posted)


"Powerful. Deep Bass, is music to my ears!, certainly like the sound of the them!.

On a slightly less positive note... I got the Tung Sol today and... even louder hum that the stock Chinese tube, will try burning that (Tung Sol) in and see what happens, patience, I hope, will prevail!.


----------



## dobigstuff

Scutey:
I am now auditioning a NOS Sylvania 6SN7 for the Driver.  Seems less bright and warmer than the NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7.


----------



## Scutey

I have an Sylvania 6sn7 arriving early next week, hopefully, that's good to hear that it sounds warmer as that is what I was hoping for, thanks for the info, also I'm going with another of your choices for my next power tube, the Tung Sol 7236. Also the TS gtb has settled down a bit, still hums but i'm hoping it will reduce further, it's quite a fast tube, with excellent bass and good detail, don't think i'll get it's full potential until one my old stock 6as7g's arrive, hopefully then it will reveal even more sonic joy .


----------



## coolcrew23

Oskari said:


> This is a brand I do not know. What can you tell us about it? Can you show photos?



I ordered it from a local tube dealer. Around 24USD. I will compare it first to a Tung Sol 6sn7 before i can confidently give an impression.


----------



## Scutey

coolcrew23 said:


> I ordered it from a local tube dealer. Around 24USD. I will compare it first to a Tung Sol 6sn7 before i can confidently give an impression.


Tung Sol 6sn7gtb. Been giving it some time today, very detailed, fast,slightly cool, very good soundstage and good bass slam, so far an excellent tube.


----------



## Oskari

coolcrew23 said:


> I ordered it from a local tube dealer. Around 24USD. I will compare it first to a Tung Sol 6sn7 before i can confidently give an impression.


The question is: Who made the tube? VSI (who are they?) is most likely a rebrander.


----------



## dobigstuff

Scutey said:


> Tung Sol 6sn7gtb. Been giving it some time today, very detailed, fast,slightly cool, very good soundstage and good bass slam, so far an excellent tube.


Scutey:

I went back to the NOS USA Tall Bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB.  Smooth.  Deep Bass as well.  So I have narrowed it down to 2 Driver Tubes:  The Tung-Sol and the Sylvania.


----------



## Scutey

dobigstuff
 hopefully i have a Syl 6sn7gt coming either today or tomorrow, and I've just won an auction for a pair of Shuguang treasure cv181-z, they should be interesting!.


----------



## Scutey

... but so far the Tung Sol is the best 6sn7 
I've heard.


----------



## dobigstuff (Oct 4, 2017)

I agree.  I kept going back to the Tung-Sol.  What about the PS Vane?  That is tempting as well.

Just wait till you find a Western Electric 421A Power Tube.  Or if you can find a NOS Tung-Sol 5998.  Earlier Posts mention they are the same Tube.


----------



## Scutey

dobigstuff said:


> I agree.  I kept going back to the Tung-Sol.  What about the PS Vane?  That is tempting as well.
> 
> Just wait till you find a Western Electric 421A Power Tube.  Or if you can find a NOS Tung-Sol 5998.  Earlier Posts mention they are the same Tube.


If the shuguang are nice I might give the PS Vane a go, That Western Electric seems to be a fairly rare tube as I've not seen any for sale recently, although I will keep on looking!, I did have the chance to acquire a Tung-Sol 5998 a couple days ago but I hesitated and when I went back to look again it had gone!.


----------



## Jim Spec

Anyone use a 12SA7 in a Darkvoice 336se?


----------



## Scutey (Oct 6, 2017)

Because the "coke bottle" tubes look so good lit up at night though I'd take a few pics, this is today's set up, driver,Tung 6sn7gtb tall bottle and for power RCA 6as7g, the RCA is sadly a bit too microphonic, but still looks pretty good lit up.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

I have the exact same RCA tubes set up on my DarkVoice  Dead silent as if you were in the vacuum of space even through my HD 800s


----------



## Scutey

ThermalAlchemy said:


> I have the exact same RCA tubes set up on my DarkVoice  Dead silent as if you were in the vacuum of space even through my HD 800s


Four tubes arrived yesterday, RCA 6SN7GT Sylvania 6SN7GT, also RCA 6AS7G and a Sylvania 6080wb, only the 6080 was silent. In total so far i've dought 7 for my DV and only 2 in total are silent.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Scutey said:


> Four tubes arrived yesterday, RCA 6SN7GT Sylvania 6SN7GT, also RCA 6AS7G and a Sylvania 6080wb, only the 6080 was silent. In total so far i've dought 7 for my DV and only 2 in total are silent.


You can see my DV workhorse sitting on top of my AC line conditioners. Monster Power HTPS 7000 and Monster Power AVS 2000 because I was  suffering from some AC noise coming in to my power into the building .  I had a little noise coming from the drivers of some of the florescence lights and LED's I change those to a different brand with better filtering in him and in some rooms I put back old  incontestant lightbulbs, and that took care of the rest of the noise. As for noise floor now you would think you were listening to a $2500 tube amp.  Sitting next to it you could see my IFI micro Black Label DAC amp.  I have the DAC use as a preamp into the darkVoice  that really cleans up and add clarity to your source .  At the same time I have my HD 650s plugged into the IFI AMP.  Two people can listen at the same time with the set up or I could play around between tube in digital simultaneously listening to both sources .   I have nearly 100 tubes for  DarkVoice and only one hums.  If you're having such problems with all your tubes humming maybe you better start looking elsewhere for the source of the noise.  When you start building tube AMPs for yourself your wallet starts hurting.


----------



## coolcrew23

Oskari said:


> The question is: Who made the tube? VSI (who are they?) is most likely a rebrander.



Here it is. Sounds balanced vs. the Tung Sol. Still getting rid of my Tung Sols left hum. Taking longer than usual now at my 90th hour


----------



## dobigstuff (Oct 7, 2017)

Here is the link a 7236 NOS Tung-Sol that you guys will love:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-TUNG-SOL-NOS-Side-to-Side-Balanced-Noise-Tested-SUB-6AS7-5998-WE421A/222668308989?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Smooth, Powerful Bass, Highs not too overbearing either.


----------



## Usejimmy

dobigstuff said:


> Here is the link a 7236 NOS Tung-Sol that you guys will love:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-TUNG-SOL-NOS-Side-to-Side-Balanced-Noise-Tested-SUB-6AS7-5998-WE421A/222668308989?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
> 
> Smooth, Powerful Bass, Highs not too overbearing either.



Is this the same Power Tubes that Woo AUDIO selling, Tung Sol 7236 NOS 1963
Hand-pick matched pair $200 (2 pcs) ?


----------



## dobigstuff

Usejimmy said:


> Is this the same Power Tubes that Woo AUDIO selling, Tung Sol 7236 NOS 1963
> Hand-pick matched pair $200 (2 pcs) ?


Usejimmy:

I don't know if they are the same that Woo Audio is selling.  I can say I have purchased one from that Seller and the Tube was in mint condition, quiet, powerful bass and great soundstage.


----------



## dobigstuff

Here is the link to another great Power Tube for the Darkvoice-A NOS Sylvania 5998:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-SYLVAN...308988?hash=item33d810c1fc:g:PPwAAOSwjqVZEy2m


----------



## coolcrew23

Been burning in my Tung Sol 6SN7 for around 95 hours now. Still a hum from the left channel. Is this normal and should I just keep going or did I get a dud?


----------



## dobigstuff

coolcrew23:

Is that a NOS USA Tung-Sol or the newer Russian issue?  Using the Russian 6SN7 you will get a loud hum/buzz in left channel of the Darkvoice.  I didn't burn them in because there are so many NOS Tubes that are dead quiet.


----------



## dobigstuff (Oct 8, 2017)

See below for all of the Combinations of Power and Drivers I have tried............All are dead quiet.  I have settled on the WE 421A Power and Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver.
















1st Photo:  NOS Western Electric 421A Power Tube and NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver Tube
2nd Photo:  NOS Jan Sylvania 5998 Power Tube and NOS Sylvania 6SN7 Driver Tube
3rd Photo:  NOS Tung-Sol 7236 Power Tube with NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver Tube
4th Photo:  NOS JAN RCA 6AS7 Power Tube and NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver Tube
I hope this helps.
Happy Rolling!!


----------



## Jim Spec

Did you try a 6F8G.  It sounds quite good in my Darkvoice 336se.  Best, JS


----------



## coolcrew23

dobigstuff said:


> coolcrew23:
> 
> Is that a NOS USA Tung-Sol or the newer Russian issue?  Using the Russian 6SN7 you will get a loud hum/buzz in left channel of the Darkvoice.  I didn't burn them in because there are so many NOS Tubes that are dead quiet.



It’s the russia one. 

So I guess this isn’t isolated. I have another one coming in. Hopefully it’s the USA one or makes no noise. My VSI 6SN7 and RCA 6AS7 was dead quiet.


----------



## coolcrew23

coolcrew23 said:


> It’s the russia one.
> 
> So I guess this isn’t isolated. I have another one coming in. Hopefully it’s the USA one or makes no noise. My VSI 6SN7 and RCA 6AS7 was dead quiet.



So backread here and found out 7-8 days of burn kn would usually let the hum fade away. Will try this.


----------



## wkndWarrior

Have a question from a noob at tuberolling, i have tried to google the answer but i just don't get it 
Will this tube fit as Powertube in my Darkvoice 336SE? Is 6336, 421A Same as 5998?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-196...870323?hash=item212ca41033:g:Cv0AAOSw7cxZm3Jb


----------



## Oskari

No. The 6336 will fry your amp.


----------



## wkndWarrior

Oskari said:


> No. The 6336 will fry your amp.


Ok, good thing I asked then 
Do tou have any suggestion (maybe a link) to a Tungsol 5998?
Have not been able to find any for sale...


----------



## Oskari

wkndWarrior said:


> Ok, good thing I asked then
> Do tou have any suggestion (maybe a link) to a Tungsol 5998?
> Have not been able to find any for sale...


I'm afraid they're somewhat rare and expensive. I see for example this on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-5998-tube-by-TUNG-SOL-tested-strong-/132361197148.


----------



## wkndWarrior

Oskari said:


> I'm afraid they're somewhat rare and expensive. I see for example this on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-5998-tube-by-TUNG-SOL-tested-strong-/132361197148.


Thanks for your help 
I will take a look and decide. It will be this one or a RCA tube...


----------



## wkndWarrior

Oskari said:


> I'm afraid they're somewhat rare and expensive. I see for example this on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-5998-tube-by-TUNG-SOL-tested-strong-/132361197148.


Did buy this tube (got some discount) and another Tungsol to replace the driver tube with


----------



## HOWIE13

Does anyone know what are the maximum safe current draw of tubes, both in the power and driver sockets, for DV?


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

HOWIE13 said:


> Does anyone know what are the maximum safe current draw of tubes, both in the power and driver sockets, for DV?



If you're talking about the current draw with both the power tubes and driver in their sockets with new old stock pretty much any tube set up will be exactly 60 W on the dot plus or minus a few tenths.  With the factory installed Chinese tubes I was measuring roughly 53 to 54 W draw at the power cord total consumption .  If you were measuring voltage is pin to pin the highest voltage is I've measured was 450 V . 
     If you wanted to actually know the safe voltage operating the limits of each individual tube and their current draw characteristics you can Google up the factory data sheet on each tube and the manufacture of the individual tube will give you a range of their specifications .


----------



## Scutey

ThermalAlchemy said:


> You can see my DV workhorse sitting on top of my AC line conditioners. Monster Power HTPS 7000 and Monster Power AVS 2000 because I was  suffering from some AC noise coming in to my power into the building .  I had a little noise coming from the drivers of some of the florescence lights and LED's I change those to a different brand with better filtering in him and in some rooms I put back old  incontestant lightbulbs, and that took care of the rest of the noise. As for noise floor now you would think you were listening to a $2500 tube amp.  Sitting next to it you could see my IFI micro Black Label DAC amp.  I have the DAC use as a preamp into the darkVoice  that really cleans up and add clarity to your source .  At the same time I have my HD 650s plugged into the IFI AMP.  Two people can listen at the same time with the set up or I could play around between tube in digital simultaneously listening to both sources .   I have nearly 100 tubes for  DarkVoice and only one hums.  If you're having such problems with all your tubes humming maybe you better start looking elsewhere for the source of the noise.  When you start building tube AMPs for yourself your wallet starts hurting.



ThermalAlchemy,

The hum that I mentioned has all but gone, not shure what was going on but all apart from 3 tubes out of 18 are now silent, one thing though the headphones I usually use, Beyer dt 1990 pro, are sensitive to any hum at all, a couple weeks ago I bought a pair of well used hd 650's and they seem far less sensitive to any hum, in fact no hum with those at all, which was what I was hoping for!.

I noticed in one of the pics you posted that you were using a Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand, are they any good?, as they seem to be pretty cheap.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Oct 22, 2017)

What's with this hum with the Russian made Tung-Sol 6SN7?
I've used this tube in several amps and it's as quiet as any tube I possess then, after reading this thread, I tried two in DV and both hummed loudly in both channels. There must be some bad synergy or something else going on, and then it apparently goes with 'burn-in'-so what magic alchemy is going on here?. Weird and spooky.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Oct 22, 2017)

ThermalAlchemy said:


> If you're talking about the current draw with both the power tubes and driver in their sockets with new old stock pretty much any tube set up will be exactly 60 W on the dot plus or minus a few tenths.  With the factory installed Chinese tubes I was measuring roughly 53 to 54 W draw at the power cord total consumption .  If you were measuring voltage is pin to pin the highest voltage is I've measured was 450 V .
> If you wanted to actually know the safe voltage operating the limits of each individual tube and their current draw characteristics you can Google up the factory data sheet on each tube and the manufacture of the individual tube will give you a range of their specifications .



Thanks @ThermalAlchemy.
 Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post as I was referring to the heater current but it doesn't matter as all the tubes I like are equal or less than the heater current of the stock tubes anyway.
Those measurements you made are fascinating- 450V-well no wonder we are warned not to put our fingers inside these amps!


----------



## gvl2016

Based on some info I could find the tubes tend to be gassy from the factory, also the metal surfaces may contain gas molecules that get released with heat. A gassy tube is more likely to hum due to heater to cathode leakage, but much also depends on the design of the tube. Over time the getter absorbs gases which reduces leakage and hum, this is likely why burning in helps.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy (Oct 22, 2017)

Scutey said:


> ThermalAlchemy,
> 
> The hum that I mentioned has all but gone, not shure what was going on but all apart from 3 tubes out of 18 are now silent, one thing though the headphones I usually use, Beyer dt 1990 pro, are sensitive to any hum at all, a couple weeks ago I bought a pair of well used hd 650's and they seem far less sensitive to any hum, in fact no hum with those at all, which was what I was hoping for!.
> 
> I noticed in one of the pics you posted that you were using a Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand, are they any good?, as they seem to be pretty cheap.


      That was my very first choice of tubes to install when I  throw away the factory Chinese tubes that came with the unit.  For the money it's still one of my all-time favorites . One of the problems when you have too many tubes to roll you start to wear out the sockets I think soon I'm going to have to crack open my dark voice and replace the sockets because the pins are getting loose.
         One word of warning when listening to music just because something is recorded in FLAC  or Hi-Rez or anything else that's supposed to be high grade audio recording.  If somebody made a bad recording and passed it around recorded in Hi-Rez audio or FLAC or anything else it'll still sound bad with your best equipment best headphones with your favorite tubes. My son just found this out when he told me. " hey dad your HD 800 or your HD 650   With your DarkVoive and your HiFi DAC  I did not hear anything special or any improvement in the music . And when I listened it sound like compressed audio a.m. radio recorded in a tin can because he went to the Internet to download some FLAC audio files of his favorite music but they're from people who made bad recordings from Bad sources  but recorded it in FLAC .


----------



## Rafa Rocks

Hello,

I found a Sylvania 6SN7 NOS near  my city , but i don't know about the quality. The one I found is a Japan model. Is it the same quality as the american ones? Is a good option or better look elsewhere...Any help?


----------



## dobigstuff

Rafa Rocks:

Check my earlier Post #1443.  Those are solid combos.  All of those Tubes are dead quiet.

Happy Rolling!


----------



## Rafa Rocks

Good morning !

Some tubes to roll and play: Tung-Sol JAN, RCA and Sylvania JAN... Burnin the Tung Sol now...






 What do you think about that 6SNGTB Sylvania (JAPAN)? I have easy acess to that at a medium price...do you think is a good choice or better buy american ones...



 

Thanks for the help.

Unfortunately I am in Brasil and it is not easy to find good valves here...

Thanks again


----------



## Oskari

Rafa Rocks said:


> What do you think about that 6SNGTB Sylvania (JAPAN)? I have easy acess to that at a medium price...do you think is a good choice or better buy american ones...


That's a Toshiba 6SN7GTB.


----------



## Rafa Rocks

Thanks for the info Oskari!

Is that Toshiba a good option? What can you say about that Toshiba ?


----------



## Oskari

Not much as I haven't heard one. Toshiba has a good reputation as a maker of tubes, though.


----------



## aisalen

Ordered Darkvoice 336SE and RCA 6AS7G and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes from eBay based on the common recommendation from here to replace the stock once my amp arrived. I am going to pair it with HD650 hoping to top my current Jotunheim in terms of SQ.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thought it might be worth recording that at present I'm enjoying excellent sound from my DV using 5998 and Tungsram E80CC, with suitable 12/6V adapter of course.


----------



## Jim Spec

HeatFan12 said:


> Back on 08-25-06 Superpredator started a thread on tube rolling with the Darkvoice 336 & 336i. It was that thread that really caught my interest in the DV. Before I went ahead and bought it, I wanted to know the certain tubes it used and the different combinations it was capable of, as well as the ins and outs and how it compared to other amps. I began reading it one night and did not stop until the last page.
> There is so much information in that thread, by so many different people, about everything 336. Opinions, favorites, hum, maintenance, you name it, it's there. Outstanding....I go back to it everytime to see if I missed anything or to see if any new developments have been posted.
> 
> If you are considering a Darkvoice 336i or 336SE, it is suggested reading so you can be ready to really enjoy this amp.
> ...


----------



## Jim Spec

I still think that the 6F8G with adapter does not get the attention it deserves.  The price on this tube continues to rise quickly, however, for the money it is still one of the sweetest tubes I have used with the Darkvoice.  It also does not run nearly as hot as most 6080 tubes.  I really enjoy it with most classical and jazz collections.  I have also used this tube with the Bottleneck Crack w/speedball with great success.  I suggest giving it a try.  Best, JS


HeatFan12 said:


> Back on 08-25-06 Superpredator started a thread on tube rolling with the Darkvoice 336 & 336i. It was that thread that really caught my interest in the DV. Before I went ahead and bought it, I wanted to know the certain tubes it used and the different combinations it was capable of, as well as the ins and outs and how it compared to other amps. I began reading it one night and did not stop until the last page.
> There is so much information in that thread, by so many different people, about everything 336. Opinions, favorites, hum, maintenance, you name it, it's there. Outstanding....I go back to it everytime to see if I missed anything or to see if any new developments have been posted.
> 
> *Also, would there be any interest in starting a new thread on adapters and their sources.  There are a lot of good tubes that require an adapter.  I would be quite interested in gather our collective intelligence on this topic.  I would participate if others are interested.  Best, JS*
> ...





Jim Spec said:


> I have used many tubes in my DV amp.  If you really like bass I find that most 6080 tubes will provide that amply.  I would suggest that you give the 6F8G a try.  I prefer the dark shaded RCA that can be seen in the attached photo.  You will notice that there is an adapter plug in the photo - you will need that adapter plug to make the 6F8G work in the dark voice.  In addition, I find the 6080 tube will normally run hot - hot enough to heat up the chassis of the amp.  The 6F8G runs considerably cooler and has a really sweet sound.  I have recently given up my DV for a Bottlehead.  I believe the Bottlehead is a better sounding amp, although, not by much.
> Best, JS


----------



## dobigstuff

Jim Spec:

Check my Post #1443 I show 4 different combos I have used with the Darkvoice.

Below is the best for me with the HD 700's:


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Someone should have pointed out long ago that there are some serious voltages in valve/tube gear. If your making measurements with a live valve amp then (a) always wear rubber soled shoes (b) keep one hand in a pocket so that should you touch something live the current will not arc across your heart or (c) you can buy a cheap strap to wear round a wrist connected with a crocodile clip to the metal shell of the amp to ground you (d) you can buy some special rubber gloves to protect yourself. There are some real @#~'~ who use 1kW Russian transmitter tubes to build amps with - one wrong touch in one of those amps and it's 'good night & good bye'. 

First time for me on this thread, I only got my D/V 3 days ago. The old thread referred to has gone . Should I start a new thread about mods and ideas or continue on this thread? 

I had 3 reasons to buy the D/V - (a) it uses a driver valve/s that I really like, creating numerous possibilities for different sounds to suit everyone: (b) it's point-to-point, making mods a doddle (most of the time) compared to PCBs and track lifting: (c) it can be used as a pre-amp.

So, it's well made and looks good, this is very important for many. I don't see anyone using a vinyl front end, I do - Kenwood KD990 with it's excellent gimbal arm designed specifically for the deck, fitted with an Audio Technica 33EV MC, i/connect (my own) 4 x 26AWG high purity solid core silver conductors (for both signal and return) using air cored (oversized) FEP tubing kept straight, not twisted inside non microphonic sheathing. This into a Talk Electronic fully discrete MC 3 phono stage and another set of my own i/cs to connect to the D/V.

 I fired it up using the supplied Chinese valves and they certainly aren't a rubbish sound and if nothing else keep them to be used as guinea pigs after a mod. Powered down and changed both for my all time favourite pre-amp valve - the 6F8G Tung Sol Round Plate - I hear you Jim Spec. and the Svet 6AS7 o/put valve - underwhelmed, nice but lacked detail or real bass. I was using my old trusty 650s and I was appalled at just how bad they sounded - the bass was bloated rubbish, there was no detail - this was not how it was supposed to be, it was a truly awful sound. So many have raved about the D/V&650. I had received the day before  the s/hand Beyer DT990 Premium cans I had bought on ebay.de they were about 9 months old so burned in.

Fitted the Beyers and changed the o/put valve to a GE 6AS7 GA. I often use Joni Mitchell's superb 1976 Herija LP to check on bass/treble. I have never heard Jaco Pastorius sound like this. His bass moves in and around nearly all the tracks, deep, so deep and layered, the soundstage was so, so deep, width was average but it didn't matter. Joni was more Joni than I had heard before. Remember this amp had only had maybe 30 mins from new. Details I had never heard. Valves and cans cannot create anything, they can only convey what is presented to them - this little h/amp is a total blinder - there are a few well tried and tested mods and I have a few ideas as well but this is so good that they can only be icing on a very,very good cake.

The only bummer for me is the bright top edge to the Beyer cans. In every other respect they trash the Senn 650s - there is no such place as paradise.


----------



## diphaloraptor

aisalen said:


> Ordered Darkvoice 336SE and RCA 6AS7G and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes from eBay based on the common recommendation from here to replace the stock once my amp arrived. I am going to pair it with HD650 hoping to top my current Jotunheim in terms of SQ.



How did it work out? I just got the HD6xx from massdrop and am looking for a good pair for my DV.


----------



## aisalen

diphaloraptor said:


> How did it work out? I just got the HD6xx from massdrop and am looking for a good pair for my DV.


Sad to say that up to this day, I can't able to hear them as they are located back home and can only hear it when my vacation is due after a month. DV is big and heavy, hoping that I can also bring those with me when I go back to work overseas.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

aisalen,
It's not that heavy, it is packed superbly and the whole package weighs less than 5K - why not post it and your source to where you work. If the voltage is different you can always buy a step-up/step/down transformer. I remember very well moving to another country to live and work and had no music for over 8 months - terrible.


----------



## aisalen

Gallic Dweller said:


> aisalen,
> It's not that heavy, it is packed superbly and the whole package weighs less than 5K - why not post it and your source to where you work. If the voltage is different you can always buy a step-up/step/down transformer. I remember very well moving to another country to live and work and had no music for over 8 months - terrible.


I am currently using Jot/650 and wm1a/iems for my needs while I am here at work. For the power source, I do not have problem since the voltage is the same with my country. We will see if I can able to bring it here from home, I will try.


----------



## diphaloraptor

aisalen said:


> Sad to say that up to this day, I can't able to hear them as they are located back home and can only hear it when my vacation is due after a month. DV is big and heavy, hoping that I can also bring those with me when I go back to work overseas.



Damn, well you'll have to fill me in once you have a chance.


----------



## aisalen

diphaloraptor said:


> Damn, well you'll have to fill me in once you have a chance.


Yes I will do, but you can get one as those that I mentioned is a common consensus among users here in this thread reading it from the beginning so it is a safe bet.


----------



## diphaloraptor (Mar 23, 2018)

aisalen said:


> Yes I will do, but you can get one as those that I mentioned is a common consensus among users here in this thread reading it from the beginning so it is a safe bet.



Will do, was ebay the best option? I've bought tubes a while ago for a little dot but lost of them were community sourced. Also, did you buy vintage tung sol made in USA or the new production made in Russia?


----------



## aisalen

diphaloraptor said:


> Will do, was ebay the best option? I've bought tubes a while ago for a little dot but lost of them were community sourced. Also, did you buy vintage tung sol made in USA or the new production made in Russia?


I bought mine from eBay, as per advise from this thread buy made in USA NOS (new old stock) not the newly produced made in Russia.


----------



## dobigstuff

One of the Best Tube Combos for the Darkvoice.  I have the HD 700's


----------



## bluzeboy

newbe darkvoice owner here ,what is the differance between the front socket & the back?
thanks


----------



## Jim Spec

I do not believe that it could be anything but:

back socket - Input from source
front socket - Output to headphones

I still have a DV and found it to be a wonderful.  It was the first really good headphone amp that I owned.  I did really love the shaded RCA 6f8G (with adapter)  It had such a smooth sound and ran significantly cooler than the 6080.  Best listening, JS


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Jim,
if you can bring yourself to shell out for a Tung Sol RP 6F8G as driver and do some simple mods it will be your number one h/amp again and maybe you will try it as a pre-amp but it will mean changing the pot, no way can you use the D/V into a power amp until that is done.


----------



## Jim Spec

I am afraid that the Darkvoice is in the closet.  I am using a Bottlehead Crack.  As much as I liked the Darkvoice I do prefer the Crack.  I just have not been able to bring myself to sell the DV.  Maybe soon.  I did order the Tung Sol.  It should sound great in the Crack.  Best Listening, JS


----------



## spacequeen7

Loving  this combo  GEC Marconi /Vt-231


----------



## bluzeboy

Jim Spec said:


> I do not believe that it could be anything but:
> 
> back socket - Input from source
> front socket - Output to headphones
> ...




i really was wondering which  slot contains the power tube and which is the  power tube?


----------



## Jim Spec

I believe I had the front and back reversed.  Don't know what I was thinking.  Sorry, JS


----------



## dobigstuff

bluzeboy said:


> i really was wondering which slot contains the power tube and which is the power tube?


bluzeboy:

The 6AS7 is the Power Tube.  You can also use 7236, 5998 and the 421A.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Apr 4, 2018)

Picked this up today ,hope they worth it
I have few TS and Cetron  7236 almost identical but I've never seen 421A


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Combien/quanto/how much?


----------



## spacequeen7 (Apr 4, 2018)

Gallic Dweller said:


> Combien/quanto/how much?



too much ..haha


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


> Picked this up today ,hope they worth it
> I have few TS and Cetron  7236 almost identical but I've never seen 421A



I'm sorry but I'll have to tell you this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-267#post-14085988. Please read the thread.


----------



## spacequeen7

Oskari said:


> I'm sorry but I'll have to tell you this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-267#post-14085988. Please read the thread.



Thank you Sir ,I bought from him in the past (few tubes for BH Crack) and was satisfied  ,I didn't payed the amount his asking for and offer the amount I would pay for a pair of NOS TS 7236 or NOS Sylvania 7236 ,visually tubes look very good ,especially pins
I'm pretty sure he will take returns if I wasn't satisfied


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


> Thank you Sir ,I bought from him in the past (few tubes for BH Crack) and was satisfied  ,I didn't payed the amount his asking for and offer the amount I would pay for a pair of NOS TS 7236 or NOS Sylvania 7236 ,visually tubes look very good ,especially pins
> I'm pretty sure he will take returns if I wasn't satisfied


I'm not going to push this. You should do your own research.


----------



## spacequeen7

Here is little update on that controversial "421A TS",just  visual comparison between "421a" (Left) and 7236 Cetron/TS (Right)


----------



## Gallic Dweller

They are the same but I'll bet the price wasn't.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Driver tube - I havn't seen anyone mention the Russian mil. spec. - 1578. I have 2 pre-amp driver tubes that are end game for me. The musical/emotional Tung Sol 6F8G RP, older version of the TS 6SN7 RP (some say, just a touch better). Then there is the 1578 - where the TS has wonderful warmth and musical detail, the 1578 is very transparent, detailed with great depth and a top end that goes on and on without a trace of harshness. In no way is it analytical.just very detailed and open. I use the TS 6F8G as driver and 2 1578 as o/put tubes in a hybrid head and power amp. This combo for me is end game, the two compliment each other so beautifully. I have used 3 x TS 6F8G for an  overpowering emotional experience. Sadly neither of these tubes have been cheap for a long time.

Mostly the 1578 are sold out of Eastern Europe or the Russian Federation and sold in pairs or quads. Be VERY CAREFUL - if you can't see the multi-holed plates, they are a con. As pairs they normally sell @ $150. @$75 a tube they are up there with the best. At the moment I'm using one of these with a bog standard GE 6AS7GA. This o/put tube allows the character of the driver tube to shine on through. Many say the o/put tube dominates, this was so for me when I used a Svetlana which was too soft and creamy but the GE let's me hear the TS and the Russian.

I don't think that $75 is too much if you pair the Russian with something that may add a touch of warmth, certainly this is a sparkling open tube. If the Beyers could emulate the top end of the 1578, they would be no contest h/phones.


----------



## spacequeen7

Gallic Dweller said:


> They are the same but I'll bet the price wasn't.


They are not the same and they do sound different ..it's like switching from 60Hz to 144 hz monitor for gaming haha..it will give you brain freeze listening to music


----------



## Gallic Dweller

The Siemens C3G is that a drop in with adaptor for the driver slot ? I hav'nt looked at the specs yet. Also there's 3 different labelled Tung Sol 7236 on Ebay, lots of them - just what relevance/differences do these white/black and red laberls represent?


----------



## mindhead1

Gallic Dweller said:


> I was using my old trusty 650s and I was appalled at just how bad they sounded - the bass was bloated rubbish, there was no detail - this was not how it was supposed to be, it was a truly awful sound. So many have raved about the D/V&650.



I have the 6xx and was not impressed with them until I plugged them into the DV336SE. I agree that the stock tubes are not terrible. I updated my tubes with an RCA NOS-6AS7G and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and the difference over stock tubes was noticeable. I attribute most of the change to the RCA 6AS7G. It really widened the sound stage, clarity and low end punch of the DV336SE. For me the DV336SE -> 6xx combo is an ideal match and all I have been listening to for the past 4 weeks. I have been considering picking up a set of DT880 or DT990 to use with the DV336SE, but need to ease up on the headphone/tubes/amp spend for while.


----------



## mindhead1

dobigstuff said:


> One of the Best Tube Combos for the Darkvoice.  I have the HD 700's



Exactly which tubes are you using?


----------



## mindhead1

HOWIE13 said:


> What's with this hum with the Russian made Tung-Sol 6SN7?
> I've used this tube in several amps and it's as quiet as any tube I possess then, after reading this thread, I tried two in DV and both hummed loudly in both channels. There must be some bad synergy or something else going on, and then it apparently goes with 'burn-in'-so what magic alchemy is going on here?. Weird and spooky.



It's some kind of tube voodoo. I followed a suggestion to burn my Russian Tung-Sol for 72 hours and the hum disappeared right on schedule.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

mindhead 1,
I bought  s/hand Beyer DT 990 Premium cans ( like new) and I think they have oodles more detail than the Senn 600.The top end can be bright on some material but this is a well known factor, you either like them or you don't, very polarised opinions here. The Beyers show that some modding will definitely benefit the D/V sound. The output caps are crucial to the sound, the better the tubes you use the more it exposes the 'thinness' of the stock amp.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

This must be the best thread to ask a favour - I really object to getting screwed on shipping/postage costs - there is a seller on ebay.com - icerope 3434, who has a lot of Tung Sol 7236 tubes for sale, red,black and white labels. The black and white labels are @ $34.95 or make an offer. For posting inside the USA $6, to France, where I live it's a whopping $24.60 + import charges @ $11.65.

Any import to the EU from a private individual is tax free if the value is below €45/US$ 55.50. I've put an offer in @ $29 on a white label tube , he's got lots of them BTW. He charges $1 for an extra tube - does anyone want to try one of these, splitting the postage inside the USA and send one onto me, declared honestly as secondhand computer tube using USPS Standard International or which ever is cheapest (no insurance) - I would be obliged, will pay in advance using Paypal.


----------



## dobigstuff

mindhead1 said:


> Exactly which tubes are you using?


mindhead1:

The Driver is a NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7, The Power is a NOS Western Electric 421 A.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

So, no one willing to do a fellow Headfier  and themselves  a favour to get a Tung Sol 7236 at a bargain price?


----------



## spacequeen7 (Apr 14, 2018)

It seems like there is few new DV 336SE owners so I decide to go over few small details in regards to this amp,hopefully this will save you some time and money down the road ,this is base on my own opinion and result of multiple testings
-DV 336SE won't benefit much from modding but if you "must" then  I would recommend simple Fitz mod (hum)
-Best thing you can do and see biggest improvement is running dedicated DAC (not DAC/amp ) via decent RCA cables
This is crucial and will get rid of all the distortion /interference and hum-some tubes need burn in time
Note:
if you have no other choice but have it connected to DAC/amp and want to get rid of that interference-distortion,etc then getting  rid of power ground it should help in a big way but I wouldn't recommend it for obvious reason

Tubes (based on my own preference/natural sounding  )-rule of thumb, I use my DAC as reference point   ;
Power tube -not as important as the driver (little guy) some would say but I never found pear shaped tube that would set the stage for SS sound , for me Good 7236  is the way to go ,this tubes are very dynamic with full and well controlled  low end but they are notorious for loose particles (solder) and slightly grainy highs  since most you can find are used and abused,I bought crap load of Cetron and TS 7236 back in the days  and could only keep one of each ,I wouldn't touch white label 7236 with 6 foot pole
If you prefer more laid-back with drop of syrup on top sound then the best sounding one I have tested and previously my go to tube on BH Crack was GEC Hammersmith 5998 (hard to find)  or TS 5998,I never had any luck with Chatham 5998 and never tested  famous WE 421A

Driver tube -make or brake kinda deal
it's all here ,this thread is like national treasure in case someone missed it
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

Upgrading my daily SS set up give me good opportunity to play with DV336 SE again the end results was very surprising ,my tube amp sounds Very close to Audio-gd R2R11/LCD-2.2 ,I'm very happy camper  and this is very budget friendly
Chain;
PC=>USB Hub (good interference dumpers)=>cheap audio USB cable (2x ferrite chokes)=> old Schiit Modi 24/96 (USB powered )=>RAMM Audio S600 RCA cables=> main event DV 336SE=>HD 650

Tubes used ;
Power -TS 421A (NOS $ 90.00)-more air ,low end is almost the same as 7236 but mids slightly up front , no grain extended highs
Driver-Arcturus 6SN7GT ( $6.00) got lucky with this one ,similar sound to  6SN7W but slightly better separation

Other drivers tested







Cheers

Edit ;Topping D50 have my name on it so I will be swapping Modi soon since it doesn't support DSD


----------



## Gallic Dweller

spacequeen - you use digital, I use vinyl. Tonight I was listening to the real 1970s Reggae played on a Jap DD Kenwood KD 990/AT 33EV MC/discrete MC phono stag. The D/V and Beyer DT 990 premium cans were great, the Reggae bass was the best I have heard. I don't agree that the Fitz mod is the only one worth doing. I removed the 6SN7 (pins 3 & 6) cathode resistors and replaced with LEDS, this leads to much better steadying voltage - you can hear the difference. This was suggested on another forum as was disconnecting the Line Out altogether, which I shall do still leaving me the choice to re-connect if I decide to use the pre-amp function. It is said to lift a veil, making the D/V much closer to the B/Crack.

Tonight I used the Tung SOL RP 6F8G as driver, the forerunner of the 6SN7 version, the other is the 1578, great detail,transparency, not a hint of harshness at the top, nothing beats the TS RP for emotion. The 1578 works beautifully with classical, especially orchestral.Thanks for the craic on the white label 7236.

With all equipment - never forget that everything you hear comes through the signal wiring -  signal wiring is ignored by 99%. The beauty of the D/V is that it is a very simple circuit and it is point-to-point, changing the signal wiring from input to pot  and  signal hard wiring isn't hard or expensive.


----------



## spacequeen7 (Apr 14, 2018)

I was just watching one of the Z reviews and he's describing the noise I mention in my previous post (@ around 14min mark ) ,that finger tapping noise in one of the channels is clear sign that one of his tubes is microphonic ,as you can see there is another amp stage in the chain


Edit :there shouldn't be anything creeping out from the background all the way to 70~80% on the volume knob


----------



## spacequeen7

Can someone identify this 6SN7GT ,I recently purchased this on ebay  , by far my best driver,I have never seen flat top getter on 6SN7


----------



## JohnBal

spacequeen7 said:


> Can someone identify this 6SN7GT ,I recently purchased this on ebay  , by far my best driver,I have never seen flat top getter on 6SN7


Possibly a Sylvania chrome dome. Hard for me to tell.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

There may well be another take on the hum problem - far to much gain. The pot is 250K - so why not attenuate this. Take a look at www.goldpt.com/mods.html. This provides all the info on what resistors to use for different levels of attenuation on different value pots.

It couldn't be simpler - just desolder the signal and earth input wires and solder the appropriate value resistors in series. If your not sure what level of attenuation you want just buy a few sets, PRP are very good and not expensive.

The Philips (Mullard) 6080 arrived yesterday, used with the 6F8G TS RP I don't find it lush at all, voices stand out and far more revealing using this combo.


----------



## spacequeen7

JohnBal said:


> Possibly a Sylvania chrome dome. Hard for me to tell.


Tube resembles 1960's 6SN7GTA/B if this getter is so called "single wire filament " and since it sounds so much like 6SN7W I had to investigate little further ,sure enough same getter


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Can those who either have a multi-meter and/or can download a resistor colour code chart let me know what value the pins 1 & 4 (6SN7 driver tube) resistors are. I've already taken out the resistors on pins 3 & 6 and replaced with LEDS, definite improvement in detail and space. Second I removed the hot melt glue to to desolder connections to the pre-amp output - another improvement in detail - voices take on a 3D audio state, like they are right beside you in the flesh. If you don't make these simple mods, you don't know what you are missing.

I asked what the value of pins 1 & 4 are because I removed mine which are 1M and replaced with Z foil 100K - a definite NO-NO. Why did I do this mod,because I have seen layouts showing 100K. My previous mods really opened up the D/V and heard voices as never before. Using 100K shrunk the whole soundstage.

So if those resistors in your D/Vs are 100K then you have to change them for 1M, the difference isn't subtle.

Another simple mod - how to get more useable steps/levels on your stepped att/ pot - www.goldpt.com/mods.html. It only involves desoldering the input wiring and soldering on resistors to signal and earth - you don't have to resolder underneath the pot . You can see lots of visuals of the D/V online and someone has kindly labelled the pot PCB, so it's easy to identify the various solder points.


----------



## JamesCanada

So, the SE is back up for grabs on Massdrop : https://www.massdrop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se
I was wondering if I should save up for a Schiit Lyr 3 or get one of these baby's... I know there is a 300$ price gap, but i'm willing to save up and wait if needed....


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Just taken a look at the internals of the Schiit, only one thing I don't like - the Alps Blue is configured PCB only, so there's nothing you can do, except maybe fit a new different pot. Volume control has a lot to do with the sound you hear, why do you think some are prepared to pay a lot of money for fancy stepped atts.

My first intro to real hifi was on a forum dedicated to tube gear and in the early days there was real experimentation with components. The good old boys were all for PIO caps, most newbies soon rejected them, along with ditching carbon resistors. A big improvement was to 'shunt the pot', the pot being an Alps Blue. this can be viewed on the World-Designs forum, scroll down and look for the tweaks, it's there. It really transforms the Alps Blue into something an awful lot better. Most just used ordinary metal film resistors, I used Z foils - there is no comparison between a shunted Alps and the standard model.

I don't think that Schiit intends it's punters to mod any of their gear and I don't think most want to anyway. I'm just pointing out how important to the overall sound the volume control is - it looks to be a well designed piece of gear. Using the one tube and a good one at that is nice, with adaptors you can tailor the sound to your liking. I'll bet it would sound good using a 6F8G TS RP but then any piece of gear does with that tube.


----------



## JohnBal

I own both and can say the new Lyr is head and shoulders above the 336. If you want a slower tube sound, stick with the DV. If you want speed, resolution, dynamics, frequency extension, clarity and larger more well defined stage, then go with the Lyr.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

JohnBal,
is your D/V standard, you don't say. I've only made a couple of mods and the detail and clarity are great, voice is 3D. So is your D/V bog standard - there is a $300 difference in price, I've spent around $1 on the mods so far.


----------



## JohnBal

Gallic Dweller said:


> JohnBal,
> is your D/V standard, you don't say. I've only made a couple of mods and the detail and clarity are great, voice is 3D. So is your D/V bog standard - there is a $300 difference in price, I've spent around $1 on the mods so far.


Bone stock. I'm not a tinkerer. No such skills or knowledge for that matter LoL.


----------



## SilverEars

what's the output impedance on this amp?


----------



## spacequeen7

SilverEars said:


> what's the output impedance on this amp?



Impedance: 32 ~ 600 Ohms


----------



## Gallic Dweller

JohnBal,
there's $300 difference in price, for a few $ that perceived gap in quality may well be able to be narrowed or closed and with a sense of personal achievement as well, not to be sniffed at.


----------



## JohnBal

Gallic Dweller said:


> JohnBal,
> there's $300 difference in price, for a few $ that perceived gap in quality may well be able to be narrowed or closed and with a sense of personal achievement as well, not to be sniffed at.


Maybe. I don't know. I was replying to the OP who didn't indicate that modding was an option. I may have missed it though. He was asking about saving up for a Lyr 3. And my reply stands. My 2 cents.


----------



## spacequeen7

Swapped my DAC from -AK4396 to ES9038Q2M2 and my previously best sounding driver tube sounds like crap now .couldn't believe the difference


----------



## Gallic Dweller

spacequeen7 - could it be an impedance thing. Because some people have a first resistor of 100K instead of the 1M I have in D/V I popped in a Z foil 100K. The GE6080 which previously had worked so well with the 6F8G TS RP sounded terrible, screechy as hell. Like I say, check the specs of the two DACs, it's a process of elimination.


----------



## JamesCanada

Thanks for the awnser about the lyr 3.
This does look like a nice, simple barebones amp.
Love the look!
Cheers!


----------



## spacequeen7

Gallic Dweller said:


> spacequeen7 - could it be an impedance thing. Because some people have a first resistor of 100K instead of the 1M I have in D/V I popped in a Z foil 100K. The GE6080 which previously had worked so well with the 6F8G TS RP sounded terrible, screechy as hell. Like I say, check the specs of the two DACs, it's a process of elimination.


You probably right since this DAC have preamp and the other one didn't


----------



## evilsync

Done a bit of reading but doesn’t seem to be a general consensus... but if there was, which tubes are worth rolling?


----------



## aisalen

evilsync said:


> Done a bit of reading but doesn’t seem to be a general consensus... but if there was, which tubes are worth rolling?


Based from reading in this thread, JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G for power and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for driver.


----------



## dobigstuff

aisalen said:


> Based from reading in this thread, JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G for power and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for driver.


Even better than the 6AS7 you can also use the following Power Tubes:  7236, 5998 and if you can find them the 421A


----------



## BerserkZz

When I tried to use 6922 to 6sn7 adapter, there was constant 'beep' noise fron the amp. Anyone had similar issues? I also have a 6cg7 adapter on the way, will this solve the issue?


----------



## dobigstuff

Try to get a NOS Tung-Sol USA 6SN7.  You may never go back to that 6922.
Here is my setup:


----------



## mindhead1

aisalen said:


> Based from reading in this thread, JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G for power and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for driver.



This is a good combo. I have these in my DV. It’s a marked improvement over the stock tubes.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Nearly all commercial gear can benefit from modding, the D/V is no exception. There are many mods you can do with the D/V but one that will really transform the this h/amp is to change the resistors, pins 1&4. They are metal film 1K. Chnage themm for 1K Z foil and be amazed. 

The Chinese have used an out of date method with the resistors (not PSU ones) in this h/amp - they have used the old mechanical connection reinforced by solder method. If you want to do this mod just snip the legs as close to the solder point as possible and resolder to this. This will do more than any other mod. 

Previously I have never preferred the sound of a h/amp over speakers - Z foils aren't cheap but they do transform a lot of gear. 

Do this and then tube roll


----------



## aisalen (May 12, 2018)

Deleted, double post.


----------



## aisalen

Currently, can't ask for more. Having the DV with 650/600, will let go of my Jot for sure in the near future.


----------



## mikewr

Anyone have a recommendation for a good tube(s) to match with a sabre dac? I don't have a whole lot of experience with tubes under my belt but am excited to try and roll a couple of tubes; just got a darkvoice via trade with a russian tung sol 6SN7 GTB and a Raytheon 6AS7G.


----------



## HOWIE13 (May 24, 2018)

Just thought I would post that I'm hearing some sublime music using a Tung-Sol 6080 power tube and dual RCA 7193 drivers. This combo has very open soundstaging, with very natural and well focused mids, sweet but not overly bright treble and deep, solid bass. Piano and female vocals are particularly finely reproduced. I tried K-R and Hytron equivalents but they hum. RCA is silent. Hard to source both tube types at present. Adapter is available on eBAY.


----------



## mmf1

HOWIE13 said:


> I tried K-R and Hytron equivalents but they hum. RCA is silent.


Humming is typically resolved by burning in the drivers for 72 hours. You can leave it running without the power tube and the amp won't run hot too.


----------



## HOWIE13

mmf1 said:


> Humming is typically resolved by burning in the drivers for 72 hours. You can leave it running without the power tube and the amp won't run hot too.


These K-R and Hytron were humming/buzzing real loud so I wouldn't recommend even purchasing them for DV, unless you are prepared to take the risk. Interestingly they worked fine in other amps I've used, The RCA's for some reason are very quiet in DV., Maybe better grounded. I have never understood the mysteries of tube hums.


----------



## FreddyFunfi

HOWIE13 said:


> Just thought I would post that I'm hearing some sublime music using a Tung-Sol 6080 power tube and dual RCA 7193 drivers. This combo has very open soundstaging, with very natural and well focused mids, sweet but not overly bright treble and deep, solid bass. Piano and female vocals are particularly finely reproduced. I tried K-R and Hytron equivalents but they hum. RCA is silent. Hard to source both tube types at present. Adapter is available on eBAY.


What is the name of the adapter you have in that pic. Also what are those things on top of your two tubes connecting them? What purpose do they serve and what is the model for them?


----------



## HOWIE13

FreddyFunfi said:


> What is the name of the adapter you have in that pic. Also what are those things on top of your two tubes connecting them? What purpose do they serve and what is the model for them?



Here's the adapter:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual...519526?hash=item2c995c3b26:g:LdUAAOSwyQtVlRuP


The type of tube is 7193, which is a single triode. That's why you need two to be the equivalent of a dual triode tube like 6SN7 tubes. Also, different manufacturers use different nomenclatures for the identical 7193 tube, which you can discover on the Web. The connectors on the top are for the anode and the grid. More than that you will have to do your own research or seek help from others on this forum as I'm no electronics expert. Good luck!


----------



## FreddyFunfi

HOWIE13 said:


> Here's the adapter:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual...519526?hash=item2c995c3b26:g:LdUAAOSwyQtVlRuP
> 
> 
> The type of tube is 7193, which is a single triode. That's why you need two to be the equivalent of a dual triode tube like 6SN7 tubes. Also, different manufacturers use different nomenclatures for the identical 7193 tube, which you can discover on the Web. The connectors on the top are for the anode and the grid. More than that you will have to do your own research or seek help from others on this forum as I'm no electronics expert. Good luck!


I'm going to look into it some more, thank you for the response and info


----------



## Necron99 (Jun 4, 2018)

Using the iFi Nano Black as a source to the Dark Voice. Using a RCA 6080 for power and a Silvertone 6SN7GTB to drive. Wow, compared to the included tubes is night and day!


----------



## ohsigmachi

Gallic Dweller said:


> Nearly all commercial gear can benefit from modding, the D/V is no exception. There are many mods you can do with the D/V but one that will really transform the this h/amp is to change the resistors, pins 1&4. They are metal film 1K. Chnage themm for 1K Z foil and be amazed.
> 
> The Chinese have used an out of date method with the resistors (not PSU ones) in this h/amp - they have used the old mechanical connection reinforced by solder method. If you want to do this mod just snip the legs as close to the solder point as possible and resolder to this. This will do more than any other mod.
> 
> ...



Is there a How To for this somewhere? In a perfect world I might send my DV somewhere to have this kind of work done, but I'm on a rock in the middle of the pacific and shipping is ridiculous.

Is this something a moderately mechanically inclined person with a hobbyist soldering iron could perform?


----------



## ohsigmachi

dobigstuff said:


> Try to get a NOS Tung-Sol USA 6SN7.  You may never go back to that 6922.
> Here is my setup:




Is yours a 6sN7GT or "GTB"


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Necron99 said:


> Using the iFi Nano Black as a source to the Dark Voice. Using a RCA 6080 for power and a Silvertone 6SN7GTB to drive. Wow, compared to the included tubes is night and day!


 I too have found that same set up to be rather satisfying along with about a dozen other combinations .  Using the IFI Black Label  to clean up the signal out of my laptop to the dark voice was a great step forward .  Also using my dark voice as a preamp to my Nelson Pass,   First  Watt , Amp Camp Amp  class A amplifier kit  to drive the Foster BK-20  speaker  package.  It always amazes me when somebody commented that they could not hear the difference swapping out tubes from the originals to a good pair of new old stock .  Just as there are people that are colorblind unfortunately some people are also Tone deaf.


----------



## khojberg

Rolling tubes - are they equal, power and driver? Or would most of the change come from swapping the driver? 
I have one power tube and two drivers on the way from ebay. Can't remember which, but just to try different ones.


----------



## dobigstuff

ohsigmachi said:


> Is yours a 6sN7GT or "GTB"



Yes, Mine is GTB


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Damn mine came in with the power switch broken off. looks like a few others have had the same problem.


----------



## ohsigmachi

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> Damn mine came in with the power switch broken off. looks like a few others have had the same problem.


That Sucks!

Did you order through Massdrop?


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

yup. im waiting to hear back from them now


----------



## maheeinfy

Is anyone using the 336SE on a step down or step up transformer?  

On the back of the unit it shows it supports 50 and 60 Hz, so voltage conversion should be good enough


----------



## Necron99 (Jun 15, 2018)

ThermalAlchemy said:


> I too have found that same set up to be rather satisfying along with about a dozen other combinations .  Using the IFI Black Label  to clean up the signal out of my laptop to the dark voice was a great step forward .  Also using my dark voice as a preamp to my Nelson Pass,   First  Watt , Amp Camp Amp  class A amplifier kit  to drive the Foster BK-20  speaker  package.  It always amazes me when somebody commented that they could not hear the difference swapping out tubes from the originals to a good pair of new old stock .  Just as there are people that are colorblind unfortunately some people are also Tone deaf.



Hearing can be subjective as you pointed out, but in this case, here in China the included tubes cost a grand total of 7.25 US! For both! The Dark Voice didn't sound bad when I first got it, however once my RCA and Silvertone tubes showed up, WHOA!!!! My Fostex TH-X00 and AKG 712's truly shined, as did the clarity of the Nano Black. So count me in on the tube upgrades, it's a no brainer!


----------



## Hazi59

Just curious if anybody has tried a Mullard 6080 and KenRad VT-231 Black Glass pairing in the DarkVoice?


----------



## maheeinfy

Something is wrong with my DV. Stock power tube puts out quite a show


----------



## ohsigmachi

maheeinfy said:


> Something is wrong with my DV. Stock power tube puts out quite a show



 Yeah' that is BAD!


----------



## dobigstuff

Did you try a different Power Tube?


----------



## maheeinfy

dobigstuff said:


> Did you try a different Power Tube?


Yes. It works fine with a RCA 6AS7G although there is the dreaded hum. I am hoping it will go away after burn in


----------



## Necron99

@
*maheeinfy*

In my experience, it's the driver tube that causes hum, not the power one. Have you been able to swap driver tubes with the same RCA 6AS7G?


----------



## maheeinfy

Necron99 said:


> @
> *maheeinfy*
> 
> In my experience, it's the driver tube that causes hum, not the power one. Have you been able to swap driver tubes with the same RCA 6AS7G?


you might be right. my new Russian Tung-sol 6SN7 hum a lot, but the GE doesn't. But it could also be because the TungSol needs some burn in to get rid of the hum


----------



## MajorRocker

maheeinfy said:


> you might be right. my new Russian Tung-sol 6SN7 hum a lot, but the GE doesn't. But it could also be because the TungSol needs some burn in to get rid of the hum



Before I had the fitz mod done any tube I put in hummed like crazy. I think it took 2 days of it on for 24/7 before the hum stopped or at least I could listen and not be bothered. I found that really annoying so I got a family member to do the fitz mod for me. If you plan on changing out tubes often I would do this mod.


----------



## Necron99 (Jun 19, 2018)

maheeinfy said:


> you might be right. my new Russian Tung-sol 6SN7 hum a lot, but the GE doesn't. But it could also be because the TungSol needs some burn in to get rid of the hum



Same here! None of my NOS tubes hum at all! I have RCA, Silvertone, and a Tung-Sol, but a US built version, and none hum. The newer Russian Tung-Sol hums. Hmmm, guess I have some burn in time to do!


----------



## dobigstuff

If you can get a NOS RCA 6AS7 you will enjoy.  There should be no hum at all.  I will post 4 combos I have used.


----------



## dobigstuff (Jun 19, 2018)

Darkvoice with JAN Sylvania 5998A Power Tube and Sylvania 6SN7 GTB Driver


----------



## dobigstuff

NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power w/ NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7Driver


----------



## dobigstuff

NOS RCA 6AS7 Power w/ NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver


----------



## dobigstuff

This is the Best Combo for me:

New Western Electric 421 A Power Tube w/ USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver 

Happy Tube Rolling!!


----------



## ohsigmachi

dobigstuff said:


> This is the Best Combo for me:
> 
> New Western Electric 421 A Power Tube w/ USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver
> 
> Happy Tube Rolling!!



I have a vintage GE 6080 6AS7 power and a NOS Silvertone 6SN7GTB driver arriving soon.

Super psyched for this combo!


----------



## maheeinfy

MajorRocker said:


> Before I had the fitz mod done any tube I put in hummed like crazy. I think it took 2 days of it on for 24/7 before the hum stopped or at least I could listen and not be bothered. I found that really annoying so I got a family member to do the fitz mod for me. If you plan on changing out tubes often I would do this mod.


is the fitz mod easy to do? is there a guide


----------



## MajorRocker

maheeinfy said:


> is the fitz mod easy to do? is there a guide



There is no guide I went off a picture here is a link on this very forum https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5248489 and as long as you know how to solder you are just soldering in 2 220uf capacitors. Just follow the picture of where they go. I used gold  Nichicon 50V 220UF capacitors.


----------



## maheeinfy

I see two adapters for the 6SN7. Which one is the correct to use with DV ?

6922 to 6SN7 adapter
12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter


----------



## rusnak666

Hi, im new in tube rolling, do you any of you know JJ tubes? I found 2A3 - 40W and 300B tubes, charakteristics are: 

A. F. TRIODE
Base: 4-PIN CERAMIC BASE
Uf = 2,5 V
If = 2,5 A

Typical characteristic:
Ua = 250 V
Ug = -45 V
Ia = 60 mA
S = 5,25 mA/V
m= 4,2
Ri = 800 Ω

do these tubes work in darkvoice 336se? Thanks


----------



## ohsigmachi

rusnak666 said:


> Hi, im new in tube rolling, do you any of you know JJ tubes? I found 2A3 - 40W and 300B tubes, charakteristics are:
> 
> A. F. TRIODE
> Base: 4-PIN CERAMIC BASE
> ...



No the 300b tubes donçt have the right number of pins.

The Darkvoice takes 6AS7G / 6520 / 6080 tubes.


----------



## bluzeboy

I, ve been using a GE 5998A power tube & suddenly it started un seating itself after I turn off the amp

If re seat it works fine,what could be causing to lose it seat?


----------



## ohsigmachi

bluzeboy said:


> I, ve been using a GE 5998A power tube & suddenly it started un seating itself after I turn off the amp
> 
> If re seat it works fine,what could be causing to lose it seat?



Have you removed/reinstalled the power tube a lot?

You may need a socket saver.


----------



## bluzeboy

ohsigmachi said:


> Have you removed/reinstalled the power tube a lot?
> 
> You may need a socket saver.


thanks ordered one


----------



## aisalen

Like it more than my Jot!


----------



## maheeinfy

aisalen said:


> Like it more than my Jot!


Are you using HD600/650 with DV ?  I am yet to try my HD650 on DV, but with the other easy-to-drive cans i tried so far, there is continuous audible hum in the headphones. I can even hear the hum directly from the amp,  if i move my head close to the amp


----------



## aisalen

maheeinfy said:


> Are you using HD600/650 with DV ?  I am yet to try my HD650 on DV, but with the other easy-to-drive cans i tried so far, there is continuous audible hum in the headphones. I can even hear the hum directly from the amp,  if i move my head close to the amp


Yes, I am using both my 600 and 650 more with my DV than the Jot as the DV is way more punchier irregardless of genre I played. I notice that I have also hum for about two weeks of my use, using Sylvania VT-231 and TS 7236, but the hum is gone now. Totally silent even even me not playing anything from the source. So as stated by some here, it will probably gone after burning-in the tube for some time. Before this, I ignore the hum as it is not noticeable when there is a music playing.


----------



## maheeinfy

aisalen said:


> Yes, I am using both my 600 and 650 more with my DV than the Jot as the DV is way more punchier irregardless of genre I played. I notice that I have also hum for about two weeks of my use, using Sylvania VT-231 and TS 7236, but the hum is gone now. Totally silent even even me not playing anything from the source. So as stated by some here, it will probably gone after burning-in the tube for some time. Before this, I ignore the hum as it is not noticeable when there is a music playing.


I see. hopefully hum will go away in my case as well after some time

Until then i will try and use the HD650 so the hum wont bother me much


----------



## aisalen

maheeinfy said:


> I see. hopefully hum will go away in my case as well after some time
> 
> Until then i will try and use the HD650 so the hum wont bother me much


Yes, use you 650 as the 600/650 paired great with OTL amp such as this. As per advise from most of users here, Russian made tube seems always have a hum so avoid those.


----------



## ohsigmachi

aisalen said:


> Yes, I am using both my 600 and 650 more with my DV than the Jot as the DV is way more punchier irregardless of genre I played. I notice that I have also hum for about two weeks of my use, using Sylvania VT-231 and TS 7236, but the hum is gone now. Totally silent even even me not playing anything from the source. So as stated by some here, it will probably gone after burning-in the tube for some time. Before this, I ignore the hum as it is not noticeable when there is a music playing.



Try this: Pull the power tube (big one) and flip on the DV and walk away. Come back 3 days later, hum will be gone.


----------



## bluzeboy

this works like charm
https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/


----------



## bluzeboy

maheeinfy said:


> Are you using HD600/650 with DV ?  I am yet to try my HD650 on DV, but with the other easy-to-drive cans i tried so far, there is continuous audible hum in the headphones. I can even hear the hum directly from the amp,  if i move my head close to the amp


this works like charm
https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/


----------



## dobigstuff

If you can get the NOS USA Tung-Sol's, they should not hum.  None of my tubes (that I have tried) hum in the Darkvoice. (Except those Tung-Sol re-issues)


----------



## volly

Love this combo.


----------



## aisalen

ohsigmachi said:


> Try this: Pull the power tube (big one) and flip on the DV and walk away. Come back 3 days later, hum will be gone.


As mentioned, I do not have hum now after the tube burn-in of about 3 to 4 weeks playing for 3 hours a day.


----------



## Jim Spec

I have been an advocate of the 6F8G tube for use in the Darkvoice earlier on this Forum.  I have since switched to a Bottleneck Crack.  After trying many tube configurations I still find that the 6F8G/6C8G provides the best sound as a front-end tube.  I especially favor the Tung-Sol 6F8G.  These tubes are still relatively cheap but seem to go up every day.  It takes a bit of effort to get to the end sound - requiring 2 adaptors.  However, in the 336 you would only need one adapter since it uses the 6SN7 tube on the front-end.  I have attached a picture - highly recommending this configuration.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2018)

Absolutely. Love the Tung Sol 6F8G with a pair of GEC 6as7g.


----------



## volly

@UntilThen - _Beautiful amp!_


----------



## Jim Spec

While I do not recommend it to anyone else, I have used the 6F8G as a power tube in the place of a 6AS7 in my Crack without Speedball.  For some reason in the other Crack I have with Speedball, it does not perform very well.  As a power tube it really runs much cooler than for instance the 6080.  I believe both the 6F8G and 6C8G are underutilized tubes.  I have about 30 of these tubes.  I do not expect to live long enough to fully use them.

Your amp looks quite good.

Best, John


----------



## UntilThen

volly said:


> @UntilThen - _Beautiful amp!_



Thanks. I started my head-fi journey with a Darkvoice 336se. Bought it 2nd hand and love it with HD650. In those days I love a warm and lush sound. Those were early days.

Here my Darkvoice 336se were shod with Tung Sols - 6sn7 and 5998. The 5998s were some of the best power tubes. Don't let anyone tell you it's garbage or junk. It's pictured besides a Feliks Audio Elise with NAD d1050.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 30, 2018)

If you like the Darkvoice 336se, wait till you hear the La Figaro 339, the big brother.


----------



## Jim Spec

I was tempted to buy the La Figaro but went for the Crack instead.  I now have two Cracks (one highly modified) and the Darkvoice.  I keep the Darkvoice as a backup.  Thanks for sharing your photos.  Best, JS


----------



## UntilThen

You're welcome Jim. When I first came to this thread, there was no one around. After a couple of posts, the OP (HeatFan12) appeared and then we became friends and were the only ones posting. 

Anyhoo, after La Figaro, came the Schitt gear and I meant it in a good way. These were seriously good. Oh I did hear a Crack with Speedball at a meet and I was quite impressed but I have already heard much better by then. IMO though. I always have to state this because you will find people making claims like it's a universal truth. So it's always in someone's opinion.


----------



## UntilThen

After Yggdrasil and Ragnarok, came Glenn Super 9 OTL amp. At that point, I had La Figaro 339, Glenn OTL and the Schitt stack on my table and it's pretty full on. So from a Darkvoice 336se, it became this.... oh I had HD800 and Eikon in the picture. LCD-2f and Atticus were not shown but by then I had those 4 headphones, including the forgotten child - HD650.


----------



## UntilThen

And for 2 weeks in April or May of this year... can't remember now. Too much happen... anyhoo for 2 weeks I has these 2 on my desk and it was quite a sick moment in time. Those were Takatsuki 300b tubes and Emission Labs 5u4g(s) on the WA5 LE.


----------



## UntilThen

Around June 2019, I'll be getting this. I expect this to be the end of my amp purchase. After that, I'll just sit back and admire my orchids.


----------



## dobigstuff

UntilThen-
You have Awesome Amps!!!

Here is my favorite combo for the Darkvoice:


 
NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver and NIB Western Electric 421 A Power


----------



## volly

@UntilThen - I feel as though I'm following in your foot steps, alas...the Darkvoice is _'Doing it right'_ for me with the 650's! 

I will be looking at rolling some power tubes next, so thanks for the tip!


----------



## UntilThen

dobigstuff said:


> NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver and NIB Western Electric 421 A Power



This is as good as it gets on the DV336se. Lovely tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

volly said:


> @UntilThen - I feel as though I'm following in your foot steps, alas...the Darkvoice is _'Doing it right'_ for me with the 650's!
> 
> I will be looking at rolling some power tubes next, so thanks for the tip!



Yes DV336se is pretty good with the HD650. Especially with some of the better tubes. @dobigstuff use the expensive but brilliant sounding WE421A. Alas the tube itself will cost as much as the amp.

I've the full set of good power tubes in pairs which I use on La Figaro 339 and Elise, Euforia. I didn't have WE421A though. I'll be moving on to 2A3 for the Stratus.

L to R - Tung Sol 5998, GEC 6as7g, GE 6BX7gt, Bendix 6080w slotted graphic tubes, GEC 6080, Cetron 6336b (you cannot use this on DV336se)


----------



## Jamie G

Just realised i posted this in pt1 of the thread without realising there was a pt2...schoolboy error. Anyway, firstly, thanks to everyone that's contributed in these threads. I've been slowly working my way through since i first ordered by 336SE and you guys (especially the tube guru's...you know who you are) have the addictive world of tubes _slightly_ less intimidating. 

So i'm currently still on my first run of replacements from stock, a GE 6SN7GTB paired with a Svetlana 6H13C and am really enjoying the upgrade from the Chinese placeholders it came with. This is my first tube amp but even I, with no experience thought it sounded almost SS as standard. I've also got a Sylvania JAN VT-231 (not a bad boy sadly) sitting patiently waiting its turn...i want to get a real feel for the current setup before switching, plus the Svet is a recent addition so am still learning how it sounds. I already have a list of tubes to hunt down and try...feels like i've opened pandora's box getting into tubes!

Anyway, enough rambling and back story. I've got a two part question to ask if you don't mind. I'm close to picking up a dirt cheap RCA 6SN7GT but can't work out the code on it. See pic below



 

Does the 35 represent the third week of 1950?
Also, is this a grey glass 6SN7? I've read info on one of the tube sites that said the 'grey' starts just up from the bottom and end just below the top.

Lastly, the reason its going dirt cheap is that its untested. I know that's probably a bit of a no no, but could it hurt the amp or is the worst that can happen that it's simply a dud? 

Thanks again for a great and informative thread people


----------



## khojberg

You don't know yet what journey you have started. I got my Darvoice 7 months ago. Have been buying various tubes, and have now ordered a Primaluna power amp for my main system . I don't know what it is with tubes, but you get bitten by them.


----------



## maheeinfy

Last night i rolled a bunch of tubes on DV

Concluded that any noise/hum i heard is due to driver tube on the front. 

Stock chinese - hum in left channel
GE 6sn7gtb - both my tubes were decent sounding but still put out mild audible hum in both left&right channels
Sylvania 6sn7gtb - crunch/arcing noise in one channel at times,  But no hum
TungSol russian 6sb7gtb reissue - both of them sounded like car enginee was turned on. Loud audible noise into left&right channels
TungSol USA 6sn7gtb - almost silent. Very mild hum and these sound great. Best of the bunch


----------



## spacequeen7 (Jul 21, 2018)

maheeinfy said:


> Last night i rolled a bunch of tubes on DV
> 
> Concluded that any noise/hum i heard is due to driver tube on the front.
> 
> ...


 Try to wiggle your RCA cables on the back of DV  or source
Edit ; "hum" could be related to ground-loop also


----------



## michaelwheeldon (Jul 21, 2018)

.


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Anyway, enough rambling and back story. I've got a two part question to ask if you don't mind. I'm close to picking up a dirt cheap RCA 6SN7GT but can't work out the code on it. See pic below
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks grey to me! That's 195*0* and week *35*. Yes, it can be a bit risky, a short inside the tube, for example. Not a huge risk, perhaps, but it is there.


----------



## Jamie G

Thanks for the reply Oskari, one day I'll get my head around these manufacturer codes! So ended up grabbing it for 4gbp, had to do it for that price, sadly tubes seem to be in quite short supply in the UK so you have to grab them while you can.

I'm gonna have to try it though right? Especially with all the love that grey glass RCA's are given on here! Anything I can do to minimise the risk?

Thanks again


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> I'm gonna have to try it though right? Especially with all the love that grey glass RCA's are given on here! Anything I can do to minimise the risk?


Cut the power fast if you notice anything untoward!


----------



## Gallic Dweller

A lot of obsessing with different tubes, fact is even really expensive commercial gear can benefit from modding. There are threads here on Headfi and on other forums that show really simple mods that transform the DV. The DV has issues that I'm surprised that the Chinese didn't put right years ago - restricted volume use is one, hum is another, disconnecting the pre-amp out - how many use it? yields immediate sonic benefits, transformer voltage issues for both USA/EU, signal wiring - this is a really simple mod, something that is mostly ignored which is crazy since it is the foundation of what is actually heard.

Do, or get done if you don't feel able to some some of these mods - then shell out for better/different tubes. Jim Spec has been banging on about 6F8G tubes, so have I - these tubes are the older brother of the 6SN7 and for those who have both, most would say that the FGs are a touch ahead, I agree with that. 

It's crazy to put the power tube ahead of the signal tube. Sadly for those who are late to the party the Tung Sol Round Plates are stand-outs, nowadays neither the 6SN7 or 6F8G come cheap - as Morgan Jones said -"if only I could use the 6SN7 in a phono stage.


----------



## Jamie G

Oskari said:


> Cut the power fast if you notice anything untoward!


Ha ha, I'll be standing by  fire extinguisher in hand! If anything were to be wrong with it, it'd go wrong pretty quick right?


----------



## maheeinfy

Jamie G said:


> Ha ha, I'll be standing by  fire extinguisher in hand! If anything were to be wrong with it, it'd go wrong pretty quick right?


Cant be worse than this


----------



## Jamie G

Cant be worse than this
[/QUOTE]
Oooh pretty  He must've known that was going to happen right?...if not, stop filming and flick the switch man!!

Or perhaps he was transfixed by the light show like me


----------



## maheeinfy

Jamie G said:


> Cant be worse than this



Oooh pretty  He must've known that was going to happen right?...if not, stop filming and flick the switch man!!

Or perhaps he was transfixed by the light show like me[/QUOTE]

No one wants the fire works stopped


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Ha ha, I'll be standing by  fire extinguisher in hand! If anything were to be wrong with it, it'd go wrong pretty quick right?


I'd guess so.


----------



## maheeinfy

spacequeen7 said:


> Try to wiggle your RCA cables on the back of DV  or source
> Edit ; "hum" could be related to ground-loop also


Any reason for wiggling the rca? RCA connectors on DV are extra tight so the connection is solid

I dont think in my case its the ground loop as on some tubes hum is almost non existant


----------



## spacequeen7

maheeinfy said:


> Any reason for wiggling the rca? RCA connectors on DV are extra tight so the connection is solid
> 
> I dont think in my case its the ground loop as on some tubes hum is almost non existant


Crank that pot to around 2 o'clock  if there is no noticeable hum or distortion then you ground-loop free ,this "thing" is like magnifying glass ,I had to get battery bank for my D50 and R2R11 is no go 
DV's pre output seams to be the culprit (there was mod mention online but the technical aspect was removed from the original thread ) also any loose RCA connection tends to transfer  all that unwanted noise 
Some of my tubes seams to be noise free then after some tube-rolling they will become slightly micro-phonic so I assume driver socket is not the best quality or tubes have mind of their own ,tube rolling can be PITA sometimes ,especially on DV 
Cheers


----------



## Jamie G

Anyone know anything about these?





I'm assuming the 'Victor' branding means it came from one of their radios? 

Anything special or is it just a regular old 6as7g?


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> just a regular old 6as7g?


Most likely, yes.


----------



## Jamie G

I've been thinking of getting some socket savers for both tubes on the DV and was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction. Will any 8-pin version work? The only ones I can see are on ebay, is it safe buying them from there?

Cheers guys


----------



## ohsigmachi

Jamie G said:


> I've been thinking of getting some socket savers for both tubes on the DV and was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction. Will any 8-pin version work? The only ones I can see are on ebay, is it safe buying them from there?
> 
> Cheers guys



This is what I use on my Schiit Freya, I haven't added one to the DV because 1) I don't really roll tubes that often 2) the sockets on my DV are quite tight 3)They are pretty expensive.

http://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NOVIB_Socket_Saver_Vibration_Red_GE_CINCH_p/novib-octal-ge-cinch.htm


----------



## Jamie G

Thanks for that, so are those compatible with both power and driver sockets? 

Unfortunately I can't find any for sale in the UK, I've found the ones in the link below shipping from China. Would you say these would be ok? 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173351449428

Out of interest, why does the sockets on the darkvoice being tight stop you from using them?


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Thanks for that, so are those compatible with both power and driver sockets?
> 
> Unfortunately I can't find any for sale in the UK, I've found the ones in the link below shipping from China. Would you say these would be ok?
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173351449428


Yes. Those should work. These are pretty good (but more expensive):

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1pc-Octal-G...34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3P-6SN7GT/191109289479

or

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1pc-Octal-G...for-EL34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-5Z3P-6SN7/191119822335


----------



## mindhead1 (Jul 23, 2018)

I have been feeding my DV 336SE with a Chromecast Audio for the past month and find it makes for a great low profile chain that the wife doesn’t mind me leaving in the living room.

Chain: Google Play Music/Plex (FLAC) -> Chromecast Audio -> DarkVoice -> 6xx
Tubes: Shanguang Treasure (6SN7), RCA NOS (6AS7)


----------



## Jamie G

Oskari said:


> Yes. Those should work. These are pretty good (but more expensive):
> 
> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1pc-Octal-G...34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3P-6SN7GT/191109289479
> 
> ...



Thanks for letting me know mate, good to hear that both sockets use the same socket saver type, i can just buy two and be done! Found it a bit weird that they specify 6SN7 but not 6AS7 in the descriptions though?

Must admit the cheaper ones i found are more 'aesthetically pleasing' to me...i know it shouldn't matter, but...


----------



## Jamie G

mindhead1 said:


> I have been feeding my DV 336SE with a Chromecast Audio for the past month and find it makes for a great low profile chain that the wife doesn’t mind me leaving in the living room.
> 
> Chain: Google Play Music/Plex (FLAC) -> Chromecast Audio -> DarkVoice -> 6xx
> Tubes: Shanguang Treasure (6SN7), RCA NOS (6AS7)



How does that Shanguang Treasure sound mate? Not seen one of those mentioned on here before?

I see you're using a balanced to 1/4 inch jack, i'd really like one those but alas (just like tubes) they're rarer than hens teeth in the UK...unless you're willing to spend silly money that is! 3 pin to 1/4 inch - lots of, 4 pin to 1/4 inch - no dice


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Thanks for letting me know mate, good to hear that both sockets use the same socket saver type, i can just buy two and be done! Found it a bit weird that they specify 6SN7 but not 6AS7 in the descriptions though?


An octal socket saver works for any octal tube. It's a simple straight-through device.


Jamie G said:


> Must admit the cheaper ones i found are more 'aesthetically pleasing' to me...i know it shouldn't matter, but...


They are not as blingy irl imho ymmv etc.


----------



## maheeinfy

Jamie G said:


> How does that Shanguang Treasure sound mate? Not seen one of those mentioned on here before?
> 
> I see you're using a balanced to 1/4 inch jack, i'd really like one those but alas (just like tubes) they're rarer than hens teeth in the UK...unless you're willing to spend silly money that is! 3 pin to 1/4 inch - lots of, 4 pin to 1/4 inch - no dice


How bout this? 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/6-35mm-Female-Balanced-Headphone-Adapter/dp/B00KQRN306


----------



## Jamie G

maheeinfy said:


> How bout this?
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/6-35mm-Female-Balanced-Headphone-Adapter/dp



You sir, are a legend! I honestly do not know why searching 4 pin xlr and 1/4 inch did not bring this up on Google or Amazon??? Anyway, head-fiers are awesome...should've just asked here first  

Thanks again


----------



## Jamie G

Oskari said:


> An octal socket saver works for any octal tube. It's a simple straight-through device.
> 
> They are not as blingy irl imho ymmv etc.



Ah, see now I've learned something else. Cheers for the info fella.

Very true about the blingy, they may even look nice to be fair. I'd prefer to just not notice them but hey, horses for courses and all that. 

While I'm thinking of it, anyone have any tubes they'd be willing to sell? As I said it's a bit tricky getting hold of much here in the UK. 

Cheers guys


----------



## mindhead1 (Jul 29, 2018)

Jamie G said:


> How does that Shanguang Treasure sound mate? Not seen one of those mentioned on here before?
> 
> I see you're using a balanced to 1/4 inch jack, i'd really like one those but alas (just like tubes) they're rarer than hens teeth in the UK...unless you're willing to spend silly money that is! 3 pin to 1/4 inch - lots of, 4 pin to 1/4 inch - no dice



The Treasure provides a nice smooth sound with good low end punch. To my ear it smooths out the high end harshness I got with the RCA 6AS7/ Tung-Sol 6SN7 combo I was using prior to getting the Treasure. And as stated earlier it adds punch and low end depth to the music. Kick and snare hit hard. It’s a pricey tube, but since I like it so much I currently have no desire to keep tube rolling. So in the long run I’m probably saving money.

The balanced to 1/4” adapter is 4 pin. I purchased the balanced cable from Periapt Cables and asked them to make the adapter so it would be easier to use my 6xx with my Aune X7S and DarkVoice. The balanced cable was $65 USD and the custom adapter was $20 USD. I’m very happy with the cables.


----------



## Jamie G

mindhead1 said:


> The Treasure provides a nice smooth sound with good low end punch. To my ear it smooths out the high end harshness I got with the RCA 6AS7/ Tung-Sol 6SN7 combo I was using prior to getting the Treasure. And as stated earlier it adds punch and low end depth to the music. Kick and snare hit hard. It’s a pricey tube, but since I like it so much I currently have no desire to keep tube rolling. So in the long run I’m probably saving money.
> 
> The balanced to 1/4” adapter is 4 pin. I purchased the balanced cable from Periapt Cables and asked them to make the adapter so it would be easier to use my 6xx with my Aune X7S and DarkVoice. The balanced cable was $65 USD and the custom adapter was $20 USD. I’m very happy with the cables.



I first heard about Periapt cable through watching Z Reviews on youtube, he raves about them. That is very good price wise too. I'm looking at about the same price for an adapter from a Chinese ebayer! You guys over the pond make me jealous sometimes.


----------



## maheeinfy (Aug 3, 2018)

wrong thread


----------



## Jamie G

So I put this in the help forum, but am yet to get a response so I hope one of you lovely people can advise 

Last night I installed some socket savers (these) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Octal-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 into my Darkvoice and noticed some sound anomalies. For the most part it is dead silent, more so even than with the tubes plugged in directly, but a few times during my testing I noticed a buzzing and crackling in the right channel, loud enough to just be audible over music. This lasted around 5 seconds and then went away and happened 3-4 times over say, half an hour of listening. 

Is this normal? Could it be just a new link in the chain and I should just bear with it, or should I just whip them out sharpish? 


Thanks all, appreciate any advice I get


----------



## volly (Aug 9, 2018)

@Jamie G - What tubes are you experiencing the noise with? I have one or two 'socket savers' that are lesser quality than some, which can introduce noise!

If it's a fresh tube, say a Russian tube, they can be a pest from time to time, like you said, it goes away. Also, I find some tubes I have can be problematic within the first few hours of it's life.

I hear, some have a noisy rear (6AS7) tube, which there are methods on how to fix this, try rolling out different tubes and see if you can locate the source of the issue.

Good luck!


----------



## volly

Just rolled in this tube: 

*Tung Sol Dumont USA 6SN7GTB 6SN7 black plate *


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> @Jamie G - What tubes are you experiencing the noise with? I have one or two 'socket savers' that are lesser quality than some, which can introduce noise!
> 
> If it's a fresh tube, say a Russian tube, they can be a pest from time to time, like you said, it goes away. Also, I find some tubes I have can be problematic within the first few hours of it's life.
> 
> ...



Funny you should say that, in the rear I have a Svetlana 6H13C. In the front currently I have a Sylvania VT-231. Both have been in for a couple of weeks now (perhaps 5-10 hours of use by me) so they should be all settled.

Its just weird that its this prominent buzz/crackle that seems to sort itself. A buzz in one channel while a tube settles I can understand...but this is odd?

Any ideas why / what's happening?


Thanks


----------



## volly

Is this your chain @Jamie G : Foobar - - Schiit Jotunheim - - Darkvoice 336SE - - Sennheiser HD650?

Is the Jot pre/amp out to your DV? Maybe remove the Jot and see if the noise is still there with another DAC?

My 6H13C is pretty solid, no issues with noise, had a noisy 6H8C but was intermittent and seemed to have settle right down!


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Is this your chain @Jamie G : Foobar - - Schiit Jotunheim - - Darkvoice 336SE - - Sennheiser HD650?
> 
> Is the Jot pre/amp out to your DV? Maybe remove the Jot and see if the noise is still there with another DAC?
> 
> My 6H13C is pretty solid, no issues with noise, had a noisy 6H8C but was intermittent and seemed to have settle right down!



Correct Volly, I've actually got an old Modi lying around so could try that. So this is something introduced by using the adapters then? Never had this (not that I noticed) when running tubes directly into the sockets?

I'm going to be rolling a 5998 and RCA Grey Glass over the weekend anyway, so I'm sure things will change!

Appreciate your help


Jamie


----------



## volly

Yeah, I've come across a few bad adapters in my time, ditch 'em and go in naked! 

Sounds like fun times a head mate!


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Yeah, I've come across a few bad adapters in my time, ditch 'em and go in naked!
> 
> Sounds like fun times a head mate!



Ha ha, yeah think I might end up doing just that! Bare back tube rolling ftw  Think i'll persevere for a while, and if it doesn't clear up just get rid.

Hope so matey, you guys on this thread have basically made the 5998 sound like a must have!

Fingers crossed it plays nicely


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Its just weird that its this prominent buzz/crackle that seems to sort itself. A buzz in one channel while a tube settles I can understand...but this is odd?
> 
> Any ideas why / what's happening?


Could it be noise pickup from a mobile phone, wireless router, or some other device?


----------



## Jamie G

Oskari said:


> Could it be noise pickup from a mobile phone, wireless router, or some other device?



Actually never thought of that, the rca connecting the Jot to the DV does run close to all of my living room setup. Maybe the socket savers are just amplifying noise from something else?


----------



## rusnak666

Hi to all, i am new in tube amplifiers, i am using my 336se with 6AS7G (Svetlana 6H13C) and CV181-Z Treasure, im planning to change the Svetlana 6H13C for Telefunken 6080 tube? Is this a upgrade or just sidegrade? What would be the differences in sound? Thanks


----------



## Oskari

Jamie G said:


> Actually never thought of that, the rca connecting the Jot to the DV does run close to all of my living room setup. Maybe the socket savers are just amplifying noise from something else?


Maybe.


----------



## Jamie G

Well, think I may have solved the noisy channel problem. Decided to try a different dac as suggested by Volly, fired up the Darkvoice went to make a drink and when I came back...front tube was somewhat lacking in glow. Tried it without the adapter in case that had died but nope, begins to light up very briefly then dies. Probably a coincidence, but I'm not confident in using them now. Haven't tried another tube yet. 

What do you think?


----------



## volly

@Jamie G - So, are you saying, the front tube section (6SN7) isn't working properly? Which tube did you have in when it 'died'? And you said you changed Dac's, did it fix the 'noisy channel' issue?


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> @Jamie G - So, are you saying, the front tube section (6SN7) isn't working properly? Which tube did you have in when it 'died'? And you said you changed Dac's, did it fix the 'noisy channel' issue?



It's starting to look like that could be the case yes. I had a Sylvania vt-231 in there at the time. I didn't actually continue down the dac testing route after that, but I did get impatient and put another tube in. All seemed to be going fine until I started noticing the same sounds in the right channel (which were becoming more continuous prior to the Sylv packing in). After what happened last time I feared 'the sound of death' so powered down and haven't been back since it was already very late and I didn't want to wait for it to cool down before troubleshooting.

I'm thinking I go back to complete stock tubes and see if the sound comes back there to start with. All quite annoying to be honest mate. Just want to listen to the music.


----------



## volly

Damn man, sounds like somethings going on there. Yeah, go back to stock and just leave it on for a little while, don't play any music for a while and then test. Also, how's the power cable, is it securely connect? Is your DV plugged in to the wall or from a power board? Try the DV in another room perhaps?

I dare say, you might have a crumby tube, that's if the stock tubes are running fine!

Good luck @Jamie G.


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Damn man, sounds like somethings going on there. Yeah, go back to stock and just leave it on for a little while, don't play any music for a while and then test. Also, how's the power cable, is it securely connect? Is your DV plugged in to the wall or from a power board? Try the DV in another room perhaps?
> 
> I dare say, you might have a crumby tube, that's if the stock tubes are running fine!
> 
> Good luck @Jamie G.



I'll leave it on with stock tubes and headphones plugged in and keep checking every now and then. The power cable is securely connected, only thing is its the one that came with the Jotunheim, as the darkvoice came with the wrong one for the uk. Its marked up the same though so wouldn't have thought that would be a problem? It's plugged into a Tacima power conditioner.

Fingers crossed its the adapters, I was still using them when I tried the second tube last night. 

Appreciate all your help with this Volly, helpful people like yourself are what make these forums.

Thanks mate


----------



## Gallic Dweller

The obsession with tube rolling when a few simple mods would reap better results, never fails to make me laugh. My No. 1 signal tube is the 6F8G Tung Sol RP, no commercial gear comes with the socket wired for this, so I have to use an adaptor - do you have something like DeOxit used neat or /Pro-Gold diluted to something like 3-1. to thoroughly clean all the contact points on the socket/adaptor and valve/tube pins.I'll bet if you do this it will cure your problem.


----------



## dobigstuff

Jamie G:

Try to stick to the USA NOS Tubes.  They should be silent.  Here is what I finally settled on:


----------



## volly

@dobigstuff - Beautiful mate, nice and shiny!


----------



## Jamie G

Dobigstuff Damn your stuff looks clean...don't you guys get dust over there?! 

So, little follow-up for any that might be interested. Ran it with stock tubes for a few hours on Saturday, no obvious signs of problems. So decided to go for broke and rolled my new 5998 and RCA Grey Glass 6SN7 in...pleased to say that (fingers-crossed) no issues so far, aside from a slight left channel hum from the RCA, but nothing too distressing.

And oh man am I glad I did?!! What a combo that is!


----------



## dobigstuff (Aug 13, 2018)

Jamie G said:


> Dobigstuff Damn your stuff looks clean...don't you guys get dust over there?!
> 
> So, little follow-up for any that might be interested. Ran it with stock tubes for a few hours on Saturday, no obvious signs of problems. So decided to go for broke and rolled my new 5998 and RCA Grey Glass 6SN7 in...pleased to say that (fingers-crossed) no issues so far, aside from a slight left channel hum from the RCA, but nothing too distressing.
> 
> And oh man am I glad I did?!! What a combo that is!


Jamie G:

I get dust don't worry.  Yeah Good NOS USA Tubes should be quiet.  I have tried RCA 6AS7 Power Tube, RCA 6SN7's, Tung-Sol's 7236, Jan Sylvania 5998 all dead quiet. 
1st Photo is Jan Sylvania 5998 Power with Sylvania 6SN7 Driver.
2nd Photo is Tung-Sol 7236 Power with Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver


----------



## Jamie G

dobigstuff said:


> Jamie G:
> 
> I get dust don't worry.  Yeah Good NOS USA Tubes should be quiet.  I have tried RCA 6AS7 Power Tube, RCA 6SN7's, Tung-Sol's 7236, Jan Sylvania 5998 all dead quiet.
> 1st Photo is Jan Sylvania 5998 Power with Sylvania 6SN7 Driver.
> 2nd Photo is Tung-Sol 7236 Power with Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver


Both look really nice mate. What are your favourite combos?


----------



## dobigstuff

I have settled on the USA Western Electric 421A Power Tube and the USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver Tube


----------



## muckyfingers

I had a noticeable hum with the stock power tube and a new Electro-Harmonix driver tube. I decided to do the Fitz mod with 2x 220uf capacitors and it cleared the hum immediately. I also replaced the bright blue led with a dimmer yellow one.


----------



## Jamie G

69mustang said:


> I had a noticeable hum with the stock power tube and a new Electro-Harmonix driver tube. I decided to do the Fitz mod with 2x 220uf capacitors and it cleared the hum immediately. I also replaced the bright blue led with a dimmer yellow one.


Is the fitz hum mod still a thing for the SE then? I read a few posts suggesting those changes had since been implemented...could be wrong though.

Nice idea re the ultra-bright led! I've gone with a double-helping of light dims. Does a very good job actually


----------



## MelonHead

Yes, hum is still present in the SE version of Darkvoice 336.  at least in mine.
I've zero problem with the stock tubes, but my freshly arrived TUNG-SOL 6SN7 GTB makes that low frequency noise in the background.


----------



## muckyfingers

Jamie G said:


> Is the fitz hum mod still a thing for the SE then? I read a few posts suggesting those changes had since been implemented...could be wrong though.
> 
> Nice idea re the ultra-bright led! I've gone with a double-helping of light dims. Does a very good job actually



I just received my 336SE this month from Massdrop and it had hum with the new driver tube, the original tube didn’t have the hum. Again, the mod fixed it immediately.


----------



## Jamie G (Aug 15, 2018)

MelonHead said:


> Yes, hum is still present in the SE version of Darkvoice 336.  at least in mine.
> I've zero problem with the stock tubes, but my freshly arrived TUNG-SOL 6SN7 GTB makes that low frequency noise in the background.





69mustang said:


> I just received my 336SE this month from Massdrop and it had hum with the new driver tube, the original tube didn’t have the hum. Again, the mod fixed it immediately.



Ah, so you can still do it! Thanks for letting me know. Sadly I feel neither confident (nor competent) enough to delve into the internals.

The driver tube I'm using currently does have a bit of a left channel hum...but not enough to bother me too much when music is playing


----------



## muckyfingers

Jamie G said:


> Ah, so you can still do it! Thanks for letting me know. Sadly I feel neither confident (or competent) enough to delve into the internals.
> 
> The driver tube I'm using currently does have a bit of a left channel hum...but not enough to bother me too much when music is playing



It’s a pretty simple/easy mod, if you are handy with a soldering iron or hopefully you can find someone to do it.


----------



## Jamie G

69mustang said:


> It’s a pretty simple/easy mod, if you are handy with a soldering iron or hopefully you can find someone to do it.


Yeah, soldering skills are negligible at best. Don't wanna risk, it so may have to see if I can find someone who can


----------



## MelonHead

69mustang said:


> It’s a pretty simple/easy mod, if you are handy with a soldering iron or hopefully you can find someone to do it.


Thanks, my DV 336SE is less than a week old. I received the spare tubes today morning, when I noticed the humm. Anyway, it doesn't bother me too much, and want to check whether the 3 days burn-in will solve the problem, or not.


----------



## volly

The RCA's come in, looks good!


  


Left:*Sovtek 6N13s*    Right: *RCA JAN 6AS7g* 

Let's see how it sounds.


----------



## Jamie G

Any thoughts on this?





Says its a 6sn7wgt GE nude base. Be interested to hear anyones opinions, love the look of it so I'm tempted, but it's selling for £40


----------



## volly

@Jamie G - Unsure on that one, looks cute as heck. Looks so naked without the base!


----------



## Jamie G

A few pics of what i'm running currently. Apologies for the poor cam quality!

TS 5998 and RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass


----------



## volly

Nice mate, how's it sounding to you? I got the RCA 6AS7g and TS 6SN7, sorta opposite to you. The RCA sounds damn smooth, loving it with the HD650's. Mid's are smooth with great detail, bass is thumping and treble is clear but not too extended. 

Definitely a different combo to the Russian equivalents, which is more dry and airy throughout. 

I do like both combo's though and will swap out for the other later, but I'm really liking this combo for the music I'm listening too.


----------



## maheeinfy

I had bad hum issues. After a lot of testing it concluded that the driver tube in the front is responsible for any hum/noise

Once i rolled a Tungsol US made 6SN7 its completely silent irrespective of the power tube i am running


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Nice mate, how's it sounding to you? I got the RCA 6AS7g and TS 6SN7, sorta opposite to you. The RCA sounds damn smooth, loving it with the HD650's. Mid's are smooth with great detail, bass is thumping and treble is clear but not too extended.
> 
> Definitely a different combo to the Russian equivalents, which is more dry and airy throughout.
> 
> I do like both combo's though and will swap out for the other later, but I'm really liking this combo for the music I'm listening too.



Well this is only the second rear, and third front i've rolled, but to my untrained ears the 5998 and RCA Grey Glass do sound fantastic together. The detail and separation are really a step up and there's a noticeable improvement in both bass quantity and quality over what i've heard previously, there's some real meat on those drum hits. Only slight downside is its perhaps not quite as smooth and silky as i'd like. Sounds particularly good with electronica though.

Maybe i'm chasing the unicorn here, but i want everything. Clear, detailed and precise whilst being warm(ish), thumping and liquid smooth...although, that does kind of sound like your assessment of your combo...dammit Volly...now i'm going to have to try that combo out!. Right, back to ebay!


----------



## Jamie G

maheeinfy said:


> I had bad hum issues. After a lot of testing it concluded that the driver tube in the front is responsible for any hum/noise
> 
> Once i rolled a Tungsol US made 6SN7 its completely silent irrespective of the power tube i am running



Yeah, i was starting to suspect this was the case but wasn't sure as i'm a rolling newb. Only tube i've tried so far that was even approaching silent was a Sylvania. At least my hum's shifted from right to left since putting the RCA in...change is as good as a holiday and all that!

Thanks for confirming maheeinfy


----------



## bluzeboy

Jamie G said:


> Yeah, i was starting to suspect this was the case but wasn't sure as i'm a rolling newb. Only tube i've tried so far that was even approaching silent was a Sylvania. At least my hum's shifted from right to left since putting the RCA in...change is as good as a holiday and all that!
> 
> Thanks for confirming maheeinfy


try this 
https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/


----------



## tamio

Greetings,
I have bought DV recently and would like to upgrade tubes. I found the stock ones (6an7, 6sn7) good in term of bass, soundstage but don't satisfy enough with details and treble. 
I am pairing DV with Idac2, hd600.

Some tubes that I could buy in my area: https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1868/43394814754_6731b7d2f6_o.png My budget is around 60$, prefer good P/P 

I find some statement like "try 12SN7 instead of 6SN7, it's bargain" or "buy something released in 197x, 196x". Are these true? Especially about statement that tube in the past is better than tube made in nowaday?


----------



## Jamie G (Aug 18, 2018)

bluzeboy said:


> try this
> https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/



Thanks for that bluzeboy, if it doesn't quieten down i may try that. The idea of leaving anything powered on for 3 straight days freaks me out slightly though.

Noticed it mentioned plugging headphones in THEN powering on...is that normal? I've never powered the DV on or off with headphones connected.


----------



## MelonHead (Aug 19, 2018)

tamio said:


> Greetings,
> I have bought DV recently and would like to upgrade tubes. I found the stock ones (6an7, 6sn7) good in term of bass, soundstage but don't satisfy enough with details and treble.
> I am pairing DV with Idac2, hd600.
> 
> ...


I'm rookie among the tubes, so take my view with a grain of salt, but this is the way what I try to follow:
I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars into different tubes, but try for the best possible few tubes what my budget allows. I know, many NOS tubes are fantastic, but I don't have the knowledge to decide which offer is good and which one could be a scam.
Therefore I decided to buy NEW tubes in the first round.
As far as I know, driver tubes have bigger role in the sound signature. I already have a NEW TUNG-SOL 6SNGTB as a spare tube. As my money is not unlimited, after a few days of web-search I pulled the trigger on a Chinese tube with very good reputation. This is the Shuguang CV181-Z, aka "black treasure". 
https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
It requires a good amount of burn-in time -30-50 hours- but the general consensus is very good. I'll test it and decide between the possible power tubes according to the signature of the Black treasure.  Some people says the Psvane tubes are better, but this is not a common consideration, and the appropriate Psvanes are slightly more expensive.

If you strictly want to fit into your budget with the two tubes, the Russian TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB is a class above the stock driver tube, but beware: it hums -at least with my DV336SE-, but I will do the fitz mod next week. 
I hope, somebody can advice a nice, budget friendly power tube for your system.


----------



## bluzeboy

Jamie G said:


> Thanks for that bluzeboy, if it doesn't quieten down i may try that. The idea of leaving anything powered on for 3 straight days freaks me out slightly though.
> 
> Noticed it mentioned plugging headphones in THEN powering on...is that normal? I've never powered the DV on or off with headphones connected.


make sure you pull out the power tube before leaving it on,it worked like a charm for me eliminating noise on my driver tubes.
i leave my phones plugged in.


----------



## Jamie G

bluzeboy said:


> make sure you pull out the power tube before leaving it on,it worked like a charm for me eliminating noise on my driver tubes.
> i leave my phones plugged in.



Thanks mate, mine should already be burned in as i'm pretty sure it's not nos, but i guess it can't do any harm.

Any idea if it matters either way? Actually remember reading one post saying you _should_ plug headphones in before powering on, but didn't pay much attention to it at the time


----------



## volly

I've experienced no issue powering on the amp with or without the headphones plugged in, just make sure no one has turned the volume up while you're away.


----------



## aisalen

Here is the top four choices for power:
JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G
Tung-Sol 5998
Sylvania 6080
Tung-Sol 7236

And here is the top 3 for driver:
Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
Sylvania VT-231
Sylvania 6SN7GTB

Now you can mix and match, my combo of choice is TS 7236 with Sylvania VT-231. I don't have 5998 yet to try.


----------



## volly (Aug 18, 2018)

I'd take your top picks from each tube section and call it a day! 

All newcomers start your engines, should be fairly easy to find these tubes.

Good luck!


----------



## aisalen

volly said:


> I'd take your top picks from each tube section and call it a day!
> 
> All newcomers start your engines, should be fairly easy to find these tubes.
> 
> Good luck!


Yes, the price of those are all moderate except for 5998. What I did when I am starting tube rolling with my DV is to make a count of all the mentioned in this thread and tally based on the likes and feedback. And what I post is the result


----------



## volly

@aisalen n - We need more people like you doing this for the greater good! 

I'd personally suggest, if you have trouble finding the ones @aisalen has summarized then look for Russian equivalent like: 6H8C (6SN7) and 6N13s =C= (6AS7g), you'd find ones from the 70's/80's in common supply. Cheap as chips and usually matched.


----------



## aisalen

Just be careful with Russians equivalent, as I heard that they usually hum specially for those new releases.


----------



## tamio

MelonHead said:


> I'm rookie among the tubes, so take my view with a grain of salt, but this is the way what I try to follow:
> I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars into different tubes, but try for the best possible few tubes what my budget allows. I know, many NOS tubes are fantastic, but I don't have the knowledge to decide which offer is good and which one could be a scam.
> Therefore I decided to buy NEW tubes in the first round.
> As far as I know, driver tubes have bigger role in the sound signature. I already have a NEW TUNG-SOL 6SNGTB as a spare tube. As my money is not unlimited, after a few days of web-search I pulled the trigger on a Chinese tube with very good reputation. This is the Shuguang CV181-Z, aka "black treasure".
> ...



How do you feel about sound signature of 6SN7GTB compared with stock tubes? Have you tried to "burn-in" to see if it could fix hum problem?
It would be nice if we have a summary post to collect all impression of user about tubes, mods of DV. That will help newcomer to keep track easier than read whole 113 pages


----------



## MelonHead (Aug 19, 2018)

I wish the same as you. Tried to read the whole thread, but gave up after 30 pages.
*A detailed summary for beginners/dummies would be very-very appreciated from the experts of Darkvoice 336(i)(SE)! *
Tubes, especially NOS tubes are dangerous and deep waters for unskilled swimmers like us. 
My DV is less than two weeks old, while the Russian Tung-sol 6SN7GTB has arrived this Thursday, and the excessive burn-in started yesterday. I test it in every 8 hours, but still hums a lot. I belive it's sound character will change, so these are not my final thoughts:
To be honest, even the stock tubes produced a much different, and very enjoyable experience compared to my Audio GD R2R-11's SS amp section, which is not bad at all. The TS 6SN7GTB is a bit drier, but resolves more detail in general than the stock one. I favor it's lows and highs, while the mids are a bit recessed compared to the original. I like the voices with the stock driver, and musical instruments with the TS tube better. The stock fails somewhat with large orchestral presentations as it can't resolve the different sections when the whole orchestra plays together, but both of them are better - at least for me - with this little gem R2R DAC than any of the previously tested solid state HP amps.


----------



## Jamie G

MelonHead said:


> I wish the same as you. Tried to read the whole thread, but gave up after 30 pages.
> *A detailed summary for beginners/dummies would be very-very appreciated from the experts of Darkvoice 336(i)(SE)! *
> Tubes, especially NOS tubes are dangerous and deep waters for unskilled swimmers like us.
> My DV is less than two weeks old, while the Russian Tung-sol 6SN7GTB has arrived this Thursday, and the excessive burn-in started yesterday. I test it in every 8 hours, but still hums a lot. I belive it's sound character will change, so these are not my final thoughts:
> To be honest, even the stock tubes produced a much different, and very enjoyable experience compared to my Audio GD R2R-11's SS amp section, which is not bad at all. The TS 6SN7GTB is a bit drier, but resolves more detail in general than the stock one. I favor it's lows and highs, while the mids are a bit recessed compared to the original. I like the voices with the stock driver, and musical instruments with the TS tube better. The stock fails somewhat with large orchestral presentations as it can't resolve the different sections when the whole orchestra plays together, but both of them are better - at least for me - with this little gem R2R DAC than any of the previously tested solid state HP amps.



While not specifically devoted to the Darkvoice, but I found the 6SN7 Reference Thread pretty useful for info about sound characteristics:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

Just scroll down to the section headed   *-= THE 6SN7 REFERENCE LIST =- *and go from there


----------



## MelonHead (Aug 19, 2018)

Thanks Jamie!
 I've seen this post a few weeks earlier and I think, it's a good reference if we take a few things into consideration..Unfortunately, as it is more than 13 years old, it misses many new tubes, and some of the mentioned ones are unavailable or the prices went up so much, that they are way out of the budget.
i hope there are some well-tested and budget-friendly (under 200 usd, including shipping and customs/VAT) driver/power combos for the DV 336 which are readily available for us with a bit less enthusiasm or much thinner purse. 

Update: _I've finished with my 4th test, after 32 hours a continuous burn-in, and now I hear some noticeable change with my New TS 6SN7 GTB. The "hum" went from both channels to the left channel and it is a bit less noticeable. I hope, it shall continue to develop in the next 40 hours._


----------



## ohsigmachi (Aug 21, 2018)

aisalen said:


> Here is the top four choices for power:
> JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G
> Tung-Sol 5998
> Sylvania 6080
> ...



It may not have gotten the numerical votes, but the Silvertone 6SN7GTB is very, very good and affordable.


----------



## MelonHead (Aug 21, 2018)

aisalen said:


> Here is the top four choices for power:
> JAN CRC RCA 6AS7G
> Tung-Sol 5998
> Sylvania 6080
> ...


I've had some free time yesterday evening and checked the suggested power tubes on e-bay. I hope, my impulse buying was not a mistake, but I couldn't resist on a Sylvania 6080 and ordered one for 20 USD.
As far as I see, the printing is a different, but hopefully the inside is similar to the standard version. The test results for this tube are the followings:

*Ia1     Ia2      S1        S1
mA mA mA/V mA/V
98.0   98.0    5.8       5.8*
I appreciate any feedback on this version. 





_
New Russian Tung-sol 6SN7 GTB hum update: after 72 hours it hums less, but still noticeably. I give an additional 36 hours and hope the bests. 
My soldering equipment and 220uF/25V capacitors for the Fitz mod should arrive within 2-3 days..._


----------



## volly

@MelonHead - Haven't tried the 6080's yet but they are next on my shopping list. Can you not get a Mullard 6080 in your area, maybe around the UK area?


----------



## volly

RCA 6AS7g - Warm and sweet mid's, like drinking hot chocolate on a wintry afternoon. Good Detail with clear imaging, voices and instruments just has that 'it' factor, whereas the Svetlana is more by the numbers top to bottom but missing a pinch of musicality (<--- is that even a word?!?). 

Very good combo with a Tung Sol 6SN7, only issue which could be a deal breaker is the dreaded 'hum'. I got a pair and the first tube started to hum after 10-15 hours of use, switched it out with the Svetlana and the hum disappeared. Trying out the second and fingers crossed, cause *dayum*....this is a great sounding tube! Goes really well with the 650's!


----------



## MelonHead

volly said:


> @MelonHead - Haven't tried the 6080's yet but they are next on my shopping list. Can you not get a Mullard 6080 in your area, maybe around the UK area?


I've seen some, but they are way out of my budget from European sources. They costs 40-70 Eur / 50-90 USD plus shipping.


----------



## volly

Fair enough, I'd say give them a shot for old time sake.


----------



## ohsigmachi

MelonHead said:


> I've had some free time yesterday evening and checked the suggested power tubes on e-bay. I hope, my impulse buying was not a mistake, but I couldn't resist on a Sylvania 6080 and ordered one for 20 USD.
> As far as I see, the printing is a different, but hopefully the inside is similar to the standard version. The test results for this tube are the followings:
> 
> *Ia1     Ia2      S1        S1
> ...




I have a Vintage GE 6080 that looks very similar to this, its a greater power tube, drives my high impedance can collection with ease.


----------



## volly

Quick update: Second RCA 6AS7g - DOA. Not even 5 hours use, a first for me, losing a tube with little warning.


----------



## MelonHead (Aug 22, 2018)

volly said:


> Fair enough, I'd say give them a shot for old time sake.


_We are under a home renovation, so every unexpected expense is hardly justifiable now. 
I shall write a kind letter to Santa, as I'm a good boy, maybe he will bring me some new/NOS tubes.  _

Sorry for your 2nd RCA. I hope, you can get your money back as it seems to be a DOA to me.


Edit:
*Let me announce proudly, that after 106 hours of continuous burn-in, the Russian Tung-SOL 6SN7 GTB is dead silent in both channels. *


----------



## volly

@MelonHead  Good times mate! Yeah I've had to go back to the Ruski tube, I love the RCA's but damn...first dead tube in my tiny inventory and the other hums badly. Probably just luck of the draw.

I'll have to look at getting some 6080's next week!

Good luck on the renovation's my friend, have you lived in the place long?


----------



## MelonHead

_Thanks mate!  
After  8 hours of listening, I can say, that the Russian Tung-Sol has changed a lot during the burn in. Everything is even more refined, the micro details and micro dynamics are even better. If somebody doesn't have the budget for more expensive 6SN7 tubes, it definitely worth a try.
_
[OFF]This is a more than hundred years old, mid-sized 3000sqft/300m2 villa-style house. We've acquired it 4 years ago.
The renovation started straight from the brick walls, with completely new roof, electricity, doors, windows, an almost passive house-like insulation, heat-pump and a totally revamped, somewhat loft-style enteriour. As our budget is not unlimited we separated the postpone-able phases into smaller steps. This year meant a bathroom, a guestroom and finally my work/hobby den in the attic. [/OFF]


----------



## volly

Hope it goes well mate!

Back on tubes, I'll be inquiring in to getting some 6080's in the next few days!


----------



## Jamie G

A little change up today, went for a JAN VT-231 up front in place of the RCA...was a bit skeptical how it'd sound with the 5998 as they seem to both be known as detail monsters, but man am I impressed! Definitely a lot of detail, but it's full too...and the bass, well up there with the RCA and lighter on its feet all round  Only downside is one hell of a hum in the left channel, seems to be quietening down though...or maybe I'm just getting used to it!


----------



## FOX1201 (Aug 26, 2018)

Received my DV a few weeks ago via Massdrop. Just got around to putting some new tubes in. In the rear I have a NOS RCA 6as7g, and up front, a Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb. A pretty standard combo from what I read, but I've been enjoying it immensely. For the power tube, I originally bought a NOS Sovtek 6as7g. It blew out on me right after installation. Had some intense sparks going on inside the tube. Luckily I live somewhat close by to a vintage radio museum and was able to pick up and test the RCA. The guy had this really neat testing station (similar to the one pictured below). Said these were pretty common to see in pharmacies in the 1950's and 60's.


----------



## volly

@FOX1201 - Looking good mate and the tester looks typically vintage!


----------



## volly

Quick update: Burning in of my RCA 6AS7g has reduced the hum in the left channel down to unnoticeable levels, very happy as this tube sounds brilliant in the DV. Was skeptical but burn-in definitely fixed this issue. Need to get some spares asap.


----------



## MelonHead

Good news here as well. Both the aforementioned Sylvania 6080 NOS and a Shuguang Black treasure CV181-Z has arrived. The burn-in process started, and the preliminary results are very-very reassuring. 
_(all soldering tools have been here for a while, but I didn't want to open the lid, and complete the intervention...)
Currently listening to: Pink Floyd - Meddle (1971)_


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Quick update: Burning in of my RCA 6AS7g has reduced the hum in the left channel down to unnoticeable levels, very happy as this tube sounds brilliant in the DV. Was skeptical but burn-in definitely fixed this issue. Need to get some spares asap.





MelonHead said:


> Good news here as well. Both the aforementioned Sylvania 6080 NOS and a Shuguang Black treasure CV181-Z has arrived. The burn-in process started, and the preliminary results are very-very reassuring.
> _(all soldering tools have been here for a while, but I didn't want to open the lid, and complete the intervention...)
> Currently listening to: Pink Floyd - Meddle (1971)_



Wish I could join you guys in the 'no hum' joy, sadly after way over 80 hours straight burn-in plus a lot of playback the VT-231 still hums like a champ. Shame as I love that tube. 

Think I'll just have to get back on ebay and do some more rolling.


----------



## volly

@Jamie G - Mate, I feel ya pain. 

Not sure if this could help and I'm sure it's been referenced before in this thread: https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/

Apologies if you have covered this before!


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> @Jamie G - Mate, I feel ya pain.
> 
> Not sure if this could help and I'm sure it's been referenced before in this thread: https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/
> 
> Apologies if you have covered this before!



Cheers bud. Yep, that's the reference i followed for the burn in process mate...seems that this tube just will not be burned!

Gutted that the other Sylvania i 'killed' was dead quiet. I'd just take a punt and go get another one but the prices have skyrocketed recently and i really don't want another hummer.


----------



## volly

Ahhh bugger, talking about pricey, check out the Sophia! A lot of marketing babble going on but interesting none the less...

http://www.sophiaelectric.com/pages/se/6sn7.htm

Anyone got one? Wanna try one @Jamie G one out for us?


----------



## Jamie G

_"I got a pair of the Sophia 6SN7's...and they were good...but not really worth the money, IMO. No better than a typical pair of NOS Sylvanias, which are cheaper."
_
Straight from the keyboard of the legendary Skylab. Shame, as they do look purdy. Also, like most things tube, these are nowhere to be seen in the UK!


----------



## volly (Sep 5, 2018)

Haha...I loved Skylab's contribution in these threads, he/she really left a few good bread crumbs for us to follow.

Are you able to grab a new production 6Sn7 Tung Sol from a local guitar store? I hear good reports about them, they've been on my list to get.


----------



## volly

If you get stuck on Ebay, hit up this fella down my way. Good service and legit tubes @Jamie G!

https://www.ebay.com.au/str/angstvacuumtubes


----------



## Jamie G

Absolutely, bit of a guru old Skylab!

Do you mean these Volly? https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=3188


----------



## dlen (Sep 5, 2018)

MelonHead said:


> Good news here as well. Both the aforementioned Sylvania 6080 NOS and a Shuguang Black treasure CV181-Z has arrived. The burn-in process started, and the preliminary results are very-very reassuring.
> _(all soldering tools have been here for a while, but I didn't want to open the lid, and complete the intervention...)
> Currently listening to: Pink Floyd - Meddle (1971)_



I would be interested in how you get on with the Shuguang Black treasure.  I have been running one in my darkvoice for the last week ran with various power tubes (TS 6080WB/RCA 6AS7/HP 6AS7/Mullard 6080 and currently with a Thompson 6080).

With both the 6AS7 tube the treasure has no real noticeable hum while in the 6080's it has a very faint hum in the left channel although this has now almost dissipated.

I certainly would like a few more hours on the tube before making any real judgement,  however I find it has a wide sound stage and have been picking up some additional detail on recording which other tubes do not seem to expose and more so using the TS 6080WB or Thompson rather than the 6AS7 tubes or Mullard 6080.

I do also own a Psvane HIFI 6SN7 which I would not recommend over NOS I purchased at the same price point.


----------



## Jamie G

dlen said:


> I would be interested in how you get on with the Shuguang Black treasure.  I have been running one in my darkvoice for the last week ran with various power tubes (TS 6080WB/RCA 6AS7/HP 6AS7/Mullard 6080 and currently with a Thompson 6080).
> 
> With both the 6AS7 tube the treasure has no real noticeable hum while in the 6080's it has a very faint hum in the left channel although this has now almost dissipated.
> 
> I certainly would like a few more hours on the tube before making any real judgement,  however I find it has a wide sound stage and have been picking up some additional detail on recording which other tubes do not seem to expose and more so using the TS 6080WB or Thompson rather than the 6AS7 tubes or Mullard 6080.



Welcome to the thread dlen! 

Have you tried any other front tubes? How does the Black Treasure compare? I'm kinda set on the TS 5998 in the back, but always interested in trying out some new front tubes with it.


Cheers


Jamie


----------



## dlen

Jamie G said:


> Wish I could join you guys in the 'no hum' joy, sadly after way over 80 hours straight burn-in plus a lot of playback the VT-231 still hums like a champ. Shame as I love that tube.
> 
> Think I'll just have to get back on ebay and do some more rolling.



I have a Raytheon VT-231 and this hums and it is a significant hum, have tired burn-in but only to around 60 hours and lost the will or desire to continue.

Although I do intend to revisit the tube at some stage in the future.

Out of interest what power tubes have you tried with it?


----------



## dlen (Sep 5, 2018)

Jamie G said:


> Welcome to the thread dlen!
> 
> Have you tried any other front tubes? How does the Black Treasure compare? I'm kinda set on the TS 5998 in the back, but always interested in trying out some new front tubes with it.
> 
> ...



Front tubes : Various NOS (USA Tung-sol, Hytron, Raytheon VT-231, Westinghouse, RCA, GE), in no particular order.

To be honest I like both the USA Tung-sol and the Hytron but currently running the Treasure and will keep doing so for the at least the next 30 hours of listening and then I may go back and perform some comparisons.

At present the sound stage seems wider on the Treasure rather than on the Tung-sol or Hytron.

Have also been considering a TS 5998 for the power tube, but rather rare and expensive.


----------



## Jamie G

dlen said:


> I have a Raytheon VT-231 and this hums and it is a significant hum, have tired burn-in but only to around 60 hours and lost the will or desire to continue.
> 
> Although I do intend to revisit the tube at some stage in the future.
> 
> Out of interest what power tubes have you tried with it?



With this tube, just the 5998. In my experience the rear doesn't make much difference if the front tube is noisy though.



dlen said:


> Front tubes : Various NOS (USA Tung-sol, Hytron, Raytheon VT-231, Westinghouse, RCA, GE), in no particular order.
> 
> To be honest I like both the USA Tung-sol and the Hytron but currently running the Treasure and will keep doing so for the at least the next 30 hours of listening and then I may go back and perform some comparisons.
> 
> ...



Well worth getting if you can find one. I ended up getting a pair from an ebay seller in France for a pretty reasonable deal.


----------



## dlen

Jamie G said:


> With this tube, just the 5998. In my experience the rear doesn't make much difference if the front tube is noisy though.
> 
> 
> 
> Well worth getting if you can find one. I ended up getting a pair from an ebay seller in France for a pretty reasonable deal.



When using a 6AS7G (HP or RCA) I find the hum is reduced over any of the 6080's I own, although not enough on the Raytheon to make me listen to it for any period of time.


----------



## volly

Jamie G said:


> Absolutely, bit of a guru old Skylab!
> 
> Do you mean these Volly? https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=3188



Yep, they'd be the ones!


----------



## MelonHead

dlen said:


> I would be interested in how you get on with the Shuguang Black treasure.  I have been running one in my darkvoice for the last week ran with various power tubes (TS 6080WB/RCA 6AS7/HP 6AS7/Mullard 6080 and currently with a Thompson 6080).
> 
> With both the 6AS7 tube the treasure has no real noticeable hum while in the 6080's it has a very faint hum in the left channel although this has now almost dissipated.
> 
> ...



I don't want to make a hasty statement, but the Shuguang seems to be very capable, or moreover impressive. Fortunately it required a bit less -around 70 hours- burn-in time to elliminate the "humm".
Let me have a few more days with it and I will compare with the Russian Tung-Sol.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

So many still not dealing with the hum issue - this was solved long ago with a simple mod - do it or find someone that can. The ludicrous situation with the volume control - only one small sweet spot, no volume before and loudness after. Solution - disconnect the pot connections and rewire from input to the PCB and use an exterior volume control - just like you do if using a power only amp, the volume control being in the preamp.


----------



## Jamie G

volly said:


> Yep, they'd be the ones!



Interesting, I've read some pretty bad reviews on the Russian Tung-sol's. At least compared to the old stock American ones. I'd be well up for trying them though if they're good as it's cheap and brand new!

I see MelonHead has one. What's your opinion on the Russian Tung-sol MelonHead?


----------



## MelonHead (Sep 7, 2018)

@Gallic Dweller Thanks, The solderenling tools are in my drawer already. I just want to make some evaluations before doing the Fitz mod.

@Jamie G Unfortunately I don't have deep enough knowledge to make a valid comparison, as I'm a fresh owner of the Darkvoice 336SE, and quality NOS tubes are out of my current budget. After the hum was gone, I was very satisfied with the production of the Russian Tung-sol. A bit dry, but pretty capable in the base and highs. Considering it's price, I will recommend it.

Today I tried the DV 336SE, as a tube preamp in my Electrocompaniet-Proac system. I'm totally amazed how well this small Chinese gem works together with the Audio-gd R2R 11 DAC in a so much bigger chain with the Sylvania 6080 and Shuguang Black Treasure tubes. I reason about buying a second unit which will be part of this living-room set-up.


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## volly

@MelonHead - Mate, I thought I was delusional in wanting to grab another DV, she's a beauty though, all my headphones want a piece of that Darkvoice sauce!

I'm the first to admit my soldering skills is noob level status, I DO NOT want to screw up this beauty! I'm more than satisfied with the RCA/Tung Sol combo!


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## tamio

Do 6as7 need burning in too?
My RCA 6as7 has hum on right channel :\


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## volly

@tamio - Indeed, same issue with my RCA, a good 10-15 hours of usage fixed it right up. I had it in the left channel. Now, the hum has gone and sounds wonderful!


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## aznsensazian

Just ordered the TungSol 6SN7GTB and GE 6AS7GA combo to go with the 336SE I just picked up from Massdrop. I had the original 336 and had very fond memories of it back in 2006. Excited to be exploring this hobby again  Cheers!


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## volly

I've settle down now with the Tung Sol 6sn7 & RCA 6AS7g combo, have been very satisfied with this combo without wanting to roll in anything else.

@aznsensazian - She's a good amp my friend, hope it all works out for you!


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## aznsensazian

@volly - I am finding that the hd-6xx/hd-650 are magical with this amp. Just so freaking musical


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## volly

The Sennies will come out more on the DV, that is for sure! I've been fortunate enough to get my hands on a Schiit Jotunheim, balanced out with the 600/650's is interesting!


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## dobigstuff

I just recently went back to my HD 700's.  I forgot how good they are.  I am also using JRiver w/ Sonarworks Plug-in for the HD 700 24/96 DLNA to my Marantz NA 7004 > Musical Fidelity M1Dac > Darkvoice.


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## aznsensazian

looks good @dobigstuff. How are the hd700s? what is your favorite tube combo with the hd700? I am really enjoying the GE JAN 6SN7WGTA and GE JAN 6AS7GA together. Lots of bass presence and great dynamics for the music I'm listening to currently which happens to be dubstep, lol


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## wwmhf

Today I tried the DV 336SE, as a tube preamp in my Electrocompaniet-Proac system. I'm totally amazed how well this small Chinese gem works together with the Audio-gd R2R 11 DAC in a so much bigger chain with the Sylvania 6080 and Shuguang Black Treasure tubes. I reason about buying a second unit which will be part of this living-room set-up.
[/QUOTE]

I am listening to a DV 336SE as a preamp at this moment, I like it as a preamp better than other preamps in my possession.


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## wwmhf

tamio said:


> Do 6as7 need burning in too?
> My RCA 6as7 has hum on right channel :\



My experiences told me that the hum issue of 336SE is related more to the driver tube, less to power tube. I had a quite few driver tubes that hummed, but settled to be OK after burning. I had a couple power tubes that had hums/pops, the burning did not help help at all. I ended up throwing them away except for the most recent one which is still on my tale.


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## dobigstuff

aznsensazian said:


> looks good @dobigstuff. How are the hd700s? what is your favorite tube combo with the hd700? I am really enjoying the GE JAN 6SN7WGTA and GE JAN 6AS7GA together. Lots of bass presence and great dynamics for the music I'm listening to currently which happens to be dubstep, lol


aznsensazian:
My favorite combo is:
USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB Tall Bottle Driver Tube and NOS Western Electric 421 A Power Tube


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## dobigstuff

This is another great combo:  NOS Jan Sylvania 5998A Power Tube with a NOS Sylvania 6SN7 GTB Driver Tube


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## MelonHead

This morning my right channel went completely out of service. I cant hear anything but some static noise. I've changed the tubes and the RCA cables which comes from the DAC, but none of these has solved the problem.
The same situations occurs on the preamp output and on the headphone jack as well. If I connect the DAC directly into my amplifier, both channels are working. 
According tho my knowledge, I have ruled out every possible steps, but I'm wondering if somebody can suggest me some workaround to fix this annoying issue.
My DV 336SE is pretty new. It arrived 3 months ago, and worked flawlessly until now. 
Thanks in advance for any help or suggestion!


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## wwmhf

Replace both tubes at the same time?
Plug in another pair of phones?


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## MelonHead

wwmhf said:


> Replace both tubes at the same time?
> Plug in another pair of phones?


Yes, I replaced both tubes, tried with different headphones and with my loudspeakers using the RCA output. 
Everything works fine when I remove the Darkvoice from the chain and use my DAC as preamp.


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## volly (Oct 14, 2018)

Damn....doesn't sound good my friend. One thing to try is whilst everything plugged in and turned on. Play some music, while the music is playing then tap on the chassis and see if you hear any difference. Tap on the metal plate around the tube area, if for whatever reason the channel comes back (momentarily) then you might have something to investigate further.

Good luck! 

P.s Dirty RCA ports? I've had RCA cables go bad too!


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## Gallic Dweller

His problem is simple since he has isolated the problem to the amp, one or more components have died in the right channel. Someone else has lost the right channel and I wonder if MelonHead has also removed the tubes/valves with the amp on for long periods of time, this is not clever, the valves are part of the circuit, removing them for a long period of time is effectively altering the operating points of the circuit.

What needs to be done now is a simple continuity check on the right channel, this will determine what if any components are kaput.


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## wwmhf

volly said:


> Damn....doesn't sound good my friend. One thing to try is whilst everything plugged in and turned on. Play some music, while the music is playing then tap on the chassis and see if you hear any difference. Tap on the metal plate around the tube area, if for whatever reason the channel comes back (momentarily) then you might have something to investigate further.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> P.s Dirty RCA ports? I've had RCA cables go bad too!



Be very careful when tapping a troubled tube amp!!!

First, to void a fatal electric shock caused by a random movement of a loose wire, do not use a bare hand to tap, use a plastic or wood stick. Second, use a pair of junk hones and do not ware them directly on your ears, a random movement of a loose wire might generate a huge pop/crackle that can damage you precious phones or ears.

If you are not afraid to open the amp, I suggest you to unplug the amp, then open it. First, check whether there are anything burned out obviously. Then, use a screen driver to poke the solder joints, use a flash light can help in this task. This is in the line suggested by Gallic above.


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## MelonHead

Since I found the Shuguang, and Sylvania I haven't been rolling tubes, and never left the tube sockets empty . I use the volume knob at 12 o'clock, as the volume is changed in Foobar 2000, or on my Electrocompaniet EC4.7, when I use my speakers.

Thanks guys for the tips. 
Unfortunately these are above my skills. I guess, it's better to find somebody here who has some experience in tube amps and can find the source of the problem and hopefully fix it.


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## Gallic Dweller

Melonhead, 
that's sensible. There are lethal voltages in valve amps, this is not a problem when you take precautions. I got serious about my sound system when I decided to build from valve kits - World Audio Design in the UK. Once built you have to do various voltage checks with the amp powered up. A decent multi-meter is a good idea, that way you can test voltages. Long ago I bought an electrician's screwdriver ( I was a builder) with which to test if power was really off. I use this to do simple continuity checks. It is fitted with an LED, every home should have one.

Had you bought the D/V through a hi-fi dealer you could take the amp back  to be repaired. If you bought the D/V through Massdrop you have now encountered the downside - caveat emptor/buyer beware, they have no liability to fix anything they sell.  The D/V can and does get very hot, the power resistors get extremely hot and they are directly soldered to the PSU caps, they re not good quality and should be changed for MIlls. Long ago when I got into hybrid head and power amps a Dutch friend suggested using a computer fan underneath with the amp base plate removed. I use my D/V on a slate box (open backed and site a PC fan directly underneath, so the amp which sensibly has perforated side plates can dissipate a lot of heat.

Find someone experienced with valve amps, I'm sure they will find the problem. They may well agree about the power resistors and some other mods at the same time, so you may well end up with a much better amp.The volume control is really bad, a Valab att. with SMD resistors would be a distinct improvement or  shunted Alps Blue. Chinese made amps are very cheap because they use some very cheap components, many need to be modded not only for better sound but sometimes for safety reasons.

I made a review of the D/V for Massdrop with ideas that turn it from a good amp into a very good amp. Apparently the original makers have disbanded and some now make the Le Figaro. The actual workmanship of the D/V is extremely good if someone was to start from basics and design out the faults yes the amp would be more expensive but it would kill a lot of the competition. Not everyone wants to get involved in modding, they want to buy a piece of equipment that is plug and play. The D/V is my first experience of the OTL type of amp and I think the basic sound has so much going for it over other types, that's why so many rock on it.

This thread is about tube rolling but that really should come second to fixing some basic problems first.


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## MelonHead (Oct 15, 2018)

Yesterday I unplugged the DV336SE, and removed it from the chain.
I arrived home an hour ago, and after reading the new posts, I put the system together again with the DV, and what a miracle... it works again without any problem.... 
I don't know if it's temporary or permanent betterment, or it was a cable which caused the problem or something else, as I've changed the cables at least four times.
But right now I'm happy and very thankful for your cooperative and valuable attitude.
Meanwhile I found a very good mechanician who is specialized on Valve/tube amps and retro audio. He can execute the changes to make the amp even better, so I will look for your advice @Gallic Dweller.

Edit: That lasted for ten minutes. The right channel went away again... 
Changed both tubes, but it didn't help.


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## wwmhf

Sorry for the trouble again. Here is my speculations:

1. Loose solder joints
2. Capacitor failure
3. Semiconductor parts 
....


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## Gallic Dweller

So, the problem is intermittent, looks like a dodgy solder joint rather than a failed component. Get in touch with that man - he can fix the minor problem and at the same time mod the amp.


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## MelonHead

Gallic Dweller said:


> So, the problem is intermittent, looks like a dodgy solder joint rather than a failed component. Get in touch with that man - he can fix the minor problem and at the same time mod the amp.



My DV336SE will go to the service tomorrow and I would like to ask them for the additional upgrades as well.
Before that, I want to collect all the affordable and useful modifications to help them.

Maybe I was not meticulous enough, but I haven't found a detailed, all-in -one compilation regarding the advised upgrades.
I've seen your posts @Gallic Dweller but I'm not professional enough, to gather the useful pieces of information.
Will you or somebody else be so kind to help me regarding this?

All what I know that I don't want to cut out the preamp output as I use my DV336SA as a valve preamp in my loudspeaker chain as well.

Sorry if I was offtopic and thanks in advance for any help.


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## Gallic Dweller

Hi Melonhead,
as there is to my knowledge only one volume sweetspot how do you use the pre-amp by that I mean - there is either no volume or it goes too loud. Choices (1) fit a 100K or other value Alps Blue (discuss this with the technician/s) shunted with z foils - total transparency, other resistors will colour the sound. Shunt resistors should be 90% of the pot value, so this will mean a drop of around 6% in sound. (2) a Valab att. built with SMD resistors/23 positions, I personally have no experience of them but have only ever heard good reports from those who have and they are not expensive.

Consider changing the signal wiring to the pot, stay with solid core. I don't use sheilding and have never had a problem with any kind of interference. Discuss this with the technicians. As with any mods you have done you need to find out if they are open minded or hidebound. Many EEs (electrical engineers) have stepped outside the box their training put them into and think freely.

You say you have never had the problem of hum, there are at least 2 forums where mods were done that eliminated this problem - if the EES don't know tell them to check out pinterest - there are visuals and info of those who overcame this problem. Rock Grotto has a thread and solution - worth a look.

The output caps - I am dealing with these at the moment. At the moment they consist of 3 x 10uF unknown Chinese polyester caps per side. 100V caps have been used successfully. I would love to have been able to use K73-16 here but the highest value is 22uF and these are only 63V. 30uF polyprops will be expensive

 100uF will enable lower Ohm h/phones to be used and should give a bigger sound. Bipolar - Parts Express/ F&T/ Nichicon/Audyn rough foil - I intend to try these and the Parts Express or polarised electrolytic. I will almost certainly use bypass caps with whatever I choose -  high voltage K73-16 - 1600V or 1000V  1.5/3.3/4.7.6.8nF. Very good caps don't need bypassing but here it should be a good move. A suggestion if the EEs can use PCB pins or similar, then you could easily experiment with these output caps - the sound is all about personal taste - there is no right or wrong. I have learnt from experience that mucking about with PCBs can easily mean track lifting - not funny. The Chinese do seem to like using PCBs everywhere eg. RCA inputs, the pot PCB and the output caps PCB - again discuss with the EEs.

Point-to-point wiring has to be good for sound and what there is in the D/V is very good indeed. I'm surprised that no enterprising Chinese hav'nt remedied and improved what is the basis for a superb headamp. Hope this helps


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## Gallic Dweller

After a few mistakes on my part I finally got my Stereo Coffee preamp to work. I have disconnected the D/V pot, made a new earth and used my own multi conductor signal wiring fed by the S/C. Absolutely no hum and the bass is outstanding, awsome,really deep and layered. Top end is congested, the amp had only been on for a few minutes. 

I have yet to change the output caps - vamos a ver. Maybe the hum problem is tied up with the standard pot configuration.


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## wwmhf

Gallic Dweller said:


> After a few mistakes on my part I finally got my Stereo Coffee preamp to work. I have disconnected the D/V pot, made a new earth and used my own multi conductor signal wiring fed by the S/C. Absolutely no hum and the bass is outstanding, awsome,really deep and layered. Top end is congested, the amp had only been on for a few minutes.
> 
> I have yet to change the output caps - vamos a ver. Maybe the hum problem is tied up with the standard pot configuration.



"Top end is congested"? This is a shortcoming, isn't it?


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## Gallic Dweller

Maybe not, this comment was made after I had listened to only one side. After another 2 sides it was gone. Even before I've changed the Chinese polyester o/put caps the bass is really deep and tight. The Stereo Coffee preamp was a good buy, not using the ridiculous volume on the D/V is an excellent move.


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## wwmhf

The Stereo Coffee preamp is an interesting idea similar to what I have been thinking to do. I have bought the following passive preamp and want to use it with the DV:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Finished-R...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Need time, where is it?


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## Gallic Dweller

wwmhf,
that looks very interesting and it comes ready built. Just disconnect the volume and preamp inside the D/V, make a new chassis earth to the input PCB and think about using better quality signal wiring.


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## wwmhf

Gallic Dweller said:


> wwmhf,
> that looks very interesting and it comes ready built. Just disconnect the volume and preamp inside the D/V, make a new chassis earth to the input PCB and think about using better quality signal wiring.



Thanks for the suggestion of connection between the ground of the DV and the volume control. My signal wires are top-notch because I make almost all of them.


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## Gallic Dweller

The signal wiring is so important. Just desolder the original earth and scrape enough paint from a  point on the nearby vented part of the chassis.


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## SWIN

Posting some inside pictures of the DV 336 SE.

Nice build quality, very easy to repair.

Quite like the Bottlehead Crack in circuit layout, but this is much beefier and have substantially bigger and better coupling capacitors, that's those big orange blobs.

The Crack uses only a very small 160 V 100 uF electrolytic cap.

All in all a nice little amp.

Will try to post a up to date schematic, with voltages.


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## wwmhf

Thanks for sharing those pictures. An up to date schematic with voltages will be great!


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## Gallic Dweller

SWIN said:


> Posting some inside pictures of the DV 336 SE.
> 
> Nice build quality, very easy to repair.
> 
> ...



Very nice photos.  Not sure about your comment on the o/put caps though - bigger does'nt have to mean better, they are only 30uF per side, not so good if your cans are low Ohms. A schematic will be useful and especially voltages. Others have measured the voltages at the o/put caps @ 70V be nice to see if you find the same. Changing these unknown Chinese o/put caps should make a very good h/amp into an even better one.

Some have said their D/V runs very hot, mine does'nt. Having disconnected the pot there is very slight hum which does'nt increase if I turn the volume to max on my Stereo Coffee preamp. It does'nt interfere with the music at all, ironically it's only slightly annoying when I'm not playing any music.


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## SylvesterH

Hi,

How many hours can it be safely use the amp without overheating?
Has anyone some experience on this subject?


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## MelonHead (Nov 5, 2018)

It surely depends on the environmental temperature and the surrounding space as well as the heat dissipation of the exact tubes. It happened a few times when I incidentaly left my 336SE on during a whole night which was 16 hours cumulated with the listening session, but I have not recognized any extreme heat.
Btw: I don't know whether my resistor problem, which caused the mute in the left channel has anything in common with the few long runs, so take my perception with a grain of salt.


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## SylvesterH

Thanks a lot. The amp is in a well ventilated space and the ambient temperature is around 22-23 C.


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## ThermalAlchemy

SylvesterH said:


> Hi,
> 
> How many hours can it be safely use the amp without overheating?
> Has anyone some experience on this subject?


 Don’t worry about heat unless you’re in a climate of 80°F plus you can do the conversion for Celsius .  You simply fix the overheating problem with a six-inch 12 V computer fan and run it at 6 V no higher than 7 V is more than adequate enough of the air movement to cool off part face either sideways into the side vents and tubes or from underneath your cabinet facing up into the vents underneath.  By running a computer fan at half the voltage it’s usually near dead quiet by being 6 inches in diameter at that speed is more than enough airflow to cool the components .


----------



## Gallic Dweller

ThermalAlchemy said:


> Don’t worry about heat unless you’re in a climate of 80°F plus you can do the conversion for Celsius .  You simply fix the overheating problem with a six-inch 12 V computer fan and run it at 6 V no higher than 7 V is more than adequate enough of the air movement to cool off part face either sideways into the side vents and tubes or from underneath your cabinet facing up into the vents underneath.  By running a computer fan at half the voltage it’s usually near dead quiet by being 6 inches in diameter at that speed is more than enough airflow to cool the components .



I'v e been using computer fans beneath hybrid amps for years, so it was obvious to use the same method with the D/V. I had a slate box made when I lived in Spain - no bottom or rear plate and lined with bitumen sheeting. I'm going to use the same method beneath my Parasound Zamp.

I have to say that my D/V does'nt run at all hot. I use a Tung Sol RP 6F8G and a Russian and a GE o/put tube.


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## wwmhf (Nov 5, 2018)

Using a quiet fan for a tube amp seems to be a good idea. I do not use a fan for my DV 336 amp, but I use a fan for my DV 339 amp. DV 339 can generate more heat than DV336, and I really like how the fan works for reducing the temp of DV 336.


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## Gallic Dweller

There were white papers written in the 1950s' about heat and the effect on caps and resistors - reduce the heat exposure to caps and resistors by 10C and double the life. You see so many comments about how mosfets sound better when hot but never any trials to justify these statements. To be valid experiments should need to be done in cooling mosfets and compare hearing tests.

the power resistors in the D/V also get hot, changing them for Mills or other quality resistors is really easy and yes the PSU components do affect the sound.


----------



## SylvesterH

Gallic Dweller said:


> Very nice photos.  Not sure about your comment on the o/put caps though - bigger does'nt have to mean better, they are only 30uF per side, not so good if your cans are low Ohms. A schematic will be useful and especially voltages. Others have measured the voltages at the o/put caps @ 70V be nice to see if you find the same. Changing these unknown Chinese o/put caps should make a very good h/amp into an even better one.
> 
> Some have said their D/V runs very hot, mine does'nt. Having disconnected the pot there is very slight hum which does'nt increase if I turn the volume to max on my Stereo Coffee preamp. It does'nt interfere with the music at all, ironically it's only slightly annoying when I'm not playing any music.




Although everybody told me to stay away from OTL amps on low impedance headphones I can report the both k812 and Oppo PM-2 are behaving spectacularly on the DV 336SE.
My set-up is OPPO HA-1 as Dac and DV 336SE - Amp.
I want to note that if I set the OPPO to simply bypass the volume is too much for the amp. So there is plenty reserve even for a 32 Ohm can as the PM-2.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Some things for D/V owners to think about - last night I set about removing the pot and then removed the pot PCB.

Removing the pot - I had already desoldered the signal wiring but not the earth wire - I use the Stereo Coffee volume control/preamp. Please use SWIN's excellent photos on the preceding page/118 to better understand what follows. So, the only other desoldering is (1) the signal earth wire (2) the earth from the jack socket and (3) the hard wire after (R) 1K resistor.

You would logically believe that all 3 of these soldered connections would be to earth - NONE ARE. Only the incoming power is earthed to chassis - see photo (2). The RCA input PCB has no earth, which means that the RCA chassis sockets are'nt earthed and that the signal wire earth wire is'nt connected to earth at either end. The jack chassis socket has an earth tang which is soldered to the pot PCB but not to earth - all this is very weird and I'm wondering if all these hum problems stem from this lack of earthing.

I have created a chassis earth form the input PCB to the adjacent chassis, to which I shall run an earth wire from the jack socket and from the hard wire r/hand side after the r/h 1K resistor, effectively creating a star earth.

SWIN - where are those voltage figures, others have measured the voltage at the output caps @ 70V - there can never be enough  factual info. The supplied Chinese o/put caps are 250V? but only 10uF. Maybe the reason those using low Ohm h/phones have no problem is related to the fact that the D/V has AFAIK only one small 'sweet spot' below which no volume or way too loud. If these Chinese caps are foil then at higher values the cost of foil caps escalates hugely - this could explain this volume anomaly.


----------



## SWIN

Gallic Dweller said:


> Some things for D/V owners to think about - last night I set about removing the pot and then removed the pot PCB.
> 
> Removing the pot - I had already desoldered the signal wiring but not the earth wire - I use the Stereo Coffee volume control/preamp. Please use SWIN's excellent photos on the preceding page/118 to better understand what follows. So, the only other desoldering is (1) the signal earth wire (2) the earth from the jack socket and (3) the hard wire after (R) 1K resistor.
> 
> ...



Sorry about the delay, got the voltages, but got stuck trying to find a CAD program with tube symbols - found a few free CAD programs, but a bit steep learning curve.

The output capacitors are the only thing that separates the B+ or drive voltage from your headphones, so a very important to select caps that can stand the whole B+, in case of a drive tube failure.

That said, the orange blobs that are the output caps on this thing, are totally unmarked, and so nobody knows what they are, and what voltage they are rated at.
One cheap and fast way to increase the value of the caps at the output, is of cause to add a electrolytic cap parallel with them.
Just check how the acclaimed Bottlehead Crack does it, a very tiny high voltage electrolytic cap at the output.

There are of cause som not too expensive high voltage foil capacitors suited as output caps in this application, but they are nearly as large as the 336, and would need an outboard case. 

The voltages so far - my unit is a 220 Volt 336, and I got B+ 134 Volt DC, 80 Volt DC across the 1 K 20 Watt "golden" large resistors, and that means 80 Volt DC across the output capacitors.
One thing that stands out so far, is that the heater voltage is 6,9 Volt AC - a bit too high for prolonged valve life, standard is 6,3 Volt.

All voltages measured with tubes in, and live working unit that was powered on 1 hour.

As soon as I am back from work, I will try to find a easy to use CAD program, with tube symbols.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

SWIN said:


> Sorry about the delay, got the voltages, but got stuck trying to find a CAD program with tube symbols - found a few free CAD programs, but a bit steep learning curve.
> 
> The output capacitors are the only thing that separates the B+ or drive voltage from your headphones, so a very important to select caps that can stand the whole B+, in case of a drive tube failure.
> 
> ...



SWIN - the o/put cap voltages are known, I put the voltage rating in my last post - 10uF/ 250V. You have confirmed what others found that the heater voltage is too high @ 6.9 V.

Re. the earthing, I asked this question on another forum and the answer was - suck and see, I shall earth all 3 points I pointed out in my last post. If i find increased hum I shall simply disconnnect. Certainly earthing the RCA PCB correctly to the chassis leaves a very,very low hum that does'nt alter with increased volume. If the earthing programme works then the Fitz mod becomes redundant - vamos a ver/let's see.

I'm going to use 1 x Audyn ERA rough foil 100uF/100V + K73-16 2.2uF/250V as o/put caps. As i may not like the Audyn caps I shall use silver 1mm wire pins so I can change the caps without having to remove the PCB again.


----------



## wwmhf

SWIN said:


> Sorry about the delay, got the voltages, but got stuck trying to find a CAD program with tube symbols - found a few free CAD programs, but a bit steep learning curve.
> 
> The output capacitors are the only thing that separates the B+ or drive voltage from your headphones, so a very important to select caps that can stand the whole B+, in case of a drive tube failure.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for sharing these finding with us!


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## wwmhf (Nov 9, 2018)

Gallic Dweller said:


> SWIN - the o/put cap voltages are known, I put the voltage rating in my last post - 10uF/ 250V. You have confirmed what others found that the heater voltage is too high @ 6.9 V.
> 
> Re. the earthing, I asked this question on another forum and the answer was - suck and see, I shall earth all 3 points I pointed out in my last post. If i find increased hum I shall simply disconnnect. Certainly earthing the RCA PCB correctly to the chassis leaves a very,very low hum that does'nt alter with increased volume. If the earthing programme works then the Fitz mod becomes redundant - vamos a ver/let's see.
> 
> I'm going to use 1 x Audyn ERA rough foil 100uF/100V + K73-16 2.2uF/250V as o/put caps. As i may not like the Audyn caps I shall use silver 1mm wire pins so I can change the caps without having to remove the PCB again.



Your experiments with the earthing and the Fitz mod will be valuable to us whose has a 336 amp.

The earthing issue of the 336 found by you is really unusual for a HIFI equipment.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

SWIN/others - can you measure the resistors on the output PCB - the legend reads 10K but mine read violet/black/red = 7K / gold = 5%. These caps and resistors are important to the sound o/put, so, if your changing either or both, matching values is a good idea. if your removing the o/put PCB it's a good idea to use some 1% resistors of your choice.

It's best to measure resistors but to get an accurate reading in situ that means lifting one leg and with these particular Rs that will be difficult, so, can others at least accurately read the colours of these 4 band resistors. There are lots of resistor colour code charts on the net.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Gallic Dweller said:


> SWIN/others - can you measure the resistors on the output PCB - the legend reads 10K but mine read violet/black/red = 7K / gold = 5%. These caps and resistors are important to the sound o/put, so, if your changing either or both, matching values is a good idea. if your removing the o/put PCB it's a good idea to use some 1% resistors of your choice.
> 
> It's best to measure resistors but to get an accurate reading in situ that means lifting one leg and with these particular Rs that will be difficult, so, can others at least accurately read the colours of these 4 band resistors. There are lots of resistor colour code charts on the net.



 Re. the resistors - a big boo-boo, especially as I had my eyes checked the next day and got a thumbs up - so I have to blame the lighting, I mistook brown for violet. When I actually measured them they were 9.90 & 10.05 , which is very good for 5% resistors.  one of them has a damaged casing so I shall replace them with 1W PRPs.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

It's a real shame that the D/V is like a lot of other amps built into a very small chassis. However there is plenty of room for the makers to have moved the PSU caps back further and to have made a deeper PCB for the output caps. If they had, I could have used K73-16 10uF/100V caps to replace the Chinese ones, that I know would have given me an outstanding sound.

This could be done by deconstructing the circuit to remove the steel plate on which it sits, cut off the vertical piece and replace with a new extended section enabling much longer caps to be used but this is a lot of hassle.


----------



## wwmhf

Gallic Dweller said:


> It's a real shame that the D/V is like a lot of other amps built into a very small chassis. However there is plenty of room for the makers to have moved the PSU caps back further and to have made a deeper PCB for the output caps. If they had, I could have used K73-16 10uF/100V caps to replace the Chinese ones, that I know would have given me an outstanding sound.
> 
> This could be done by deconstructing the circuit to remove the steel plate on which it sits, cut off the vertical piece and replace with a new extended section enabling much longer caps to be used but this is a lot of hassle.



I am considering increase the volume inside the amp by putting it one another box, even a wood one.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy (Nov 12, 2018)

SWIN said:


> Sorry about the delay, got the voltages, but got stuck trying to find a CAD program with tube symbols - found a few free CAD programs, but a bit steep learning curve.
> 
> The output capacitors are the only thing that separates the B+ or drive voltage from your headphones, so a very important to select caps that can stand the whole B+, in case of a drive tube failure.
> 
> ...



 Orange blob caps if somebody had a old-style capacitor checker from the 50s or 60s like to Heathkit or any other you can test those capacitors simply running up the voltage in till shows failure,  that would give you the rough voltage capacity.  If somebody else had a good ESR meter in capacity tester we would get a ballpark figure on the capacitance value.
       Instead of a cad program how about  train a PCB layout programs to manufacture PCBs .  I believe you’ll find it much easier learning curve and they already have a lot of electrical symbols people have put in and they have it easy to  training  with videos how to make up and use the program .  And in the end you’ll have a working layout for PCB that you could release on a file on this form for everybody to make as a kit  they simply just go to easy EDA’s website to the Gerber file that you produced on the layout and request a circuit board to be sent to them for about 20 bucks . https://easyeda.com/      Not only do they have mini video tutorials but you go onto YouTube and other people show you how to use this program they made it very easy so even a first time user can get it done right and order a PCB from them .


----------



## Gallic Dweller

ThermalAlchemy said:


> Orange blob caps if somebody had a old-style capacitor checker from the 50s or 60s like to Heathkit or any other you can test those capacitors simply running up the voltage in till shows failure,  that would give you the rough voltage capacity.  If somebody else had a good ESR meter in capacity tester we would get a ballpark figure on the capacitance value.
> Instead of a cad program how about  train a PCB layout programs to manufacture PCBs .  I believe you’ll find it much easier learning curve and they already have a lot of electrical symbols people have put in and they have it easy to  training  with videos how to make up and use the program .  And in the end you’ll have a working layout for PCB that you could release on a file on this form for everybody to make as a kit  they simply just go to easy EDA’s website to the Gerber file that you produced on the layout and request a circuit board to be sent to them for about 20 bucks . https://easyeda.com/      Not only do they have mini video tutorials but you go onto YouTube and other people show you how to use this program they made it very easy so even a first time user can get it done right and order a PCB from them .



You should read previous posts - for the third time the Chinese o/put caps are rated @ 10uf/250v, I measured 4 - 3 x @ 10.2 and 1 x @ 10.3.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

wwmhf said:


> I am considering increase the volume inside the amp by putting it one another box, even a wood one.



The problem is your still left a restricted space re. the o/put caps. You can easily change the pot and jack socket for better. Here's an idea - you would have to desolder an awful lot but if you do this you could then remove the plate on which the circuit sits. There are 2 screws underneath the output circuit board - by cutting off the vertical piece of the steel circuit plate and making a new L shaped piece of steel or aluminium, you could greatly extend the plate here to allow for much longer o/put caps. The new L shaped extension piece could then be secured with the existing 2 screws and bonding adhesive. Also if you use a wooden box be careful with earthing the whole thing.


----------



## xmdkq

336 Se在336 C现在停止生产后不再生产，目前只生产339台。


----------



## Gallic Dweller

xmdkq said:


> 336 Se在336 C现在停止生产后不再生产，目前只生产339台。



This is an English language forum, I'm not familiar with any Asian scripts, could you please translate.


----------



## SWIN

Translated: "The 336 Se is no longer produced after the 336 C is now discontinued and currently only produces 339 units."

Marilyn Monroe had a hit with "Google is a girls best friend" some years ago


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Google is great IF you know which language you want translated.


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

Gallic Dweller said:


> This is an English language forum, I'm not familiar with any Asian scripts, could you please translate.


 Chinese translation 
(
The 336 Se is no longer produced after the 336 C is now discontinued and currently only produces 339 units.)


----------



## xmdkq

The 336se is not produced and currently only produces 339.


----------



## SWIN

Still trying with some CAD programs .

But that humming left channel was driving me sane 

So made a mod to stop at least the worst, so I could listen to my 336SE without having the left channel modulated by 50 Hz.

I just cut the A/C heater connection to the left channel earth - really an idiotic thing from the designer of this head-amp.

Then just took two 220 Ohm resistors and created an virtual zero at the start of the of the heater wires.

And then connected the virtual zero point from the resistors to chassis earth with a 20 uF capacitor.

And while this thing is humming if I turn the volume up, it is not from the heaters or the head-amp, the hum I think is coming from my tubed DAC output.

Easy mod anyhow, and doesn't spoil the sound quality as adding electrolytic´s across the cathode resistors of the input 6SN7 valve does.


----------



## wwmhf

An interesting idea


----------



## Gallic Dweller

SWIN,
was that earth a real earth? Your photo just shows (bottom right by the yellow shrouded cable) what purports to be an earth for the right channel. This connected to zero. You can't see this unless you remove the volume PCB. As I said in a previous post I created an earth from the input PCB to the chassis. When I discovered that the right channel had no real earth I cut the wire just before the 1K R/C resistor and used this earthing point and the hum was so minimal and didn't change with volume.


----------



## SWIN (Nov 30, 2018)

Gallic Dweller said:


> SWIN,
> was that earth a real earth? Your photo just shows (bottom right by the yellow shrouded cable) what purports to be an earth for the right channel. This connected to zero. You can't see this unless you remove the volume PCB. As I said in a previous post I created an earth from the input PCB to the chassis. When I discovered that the right channel had no real earth I cut the wire just before the 1K R/C resistor and used this earthing point and the hum was so minimal and didn't change with volume.



You can see the yellow/green earth cable sticking out just close to the blue disc capacitors - the yellow/green goes from the mains earth input straight to that point.
And that is the main earth point of this circuit, and everything is earthed to the earth pin on the mains socket.

Yes it is a bit of a mixed mess, but generally works, please note than only two cables goes to the phones socket, both channels are earthed thru the chassis, no separate earth lead.

It is a major engineering mistake to just dump the 50 Hz / 6,9 V heater straight at the left channel earth.
And then tell customers that it is a defective tube that causes the loud left channel hum at zero volume.
But still it is sold in huge numbers, and people accept it anyhow - there is a huge market for this type op OTL headphone amp, and a really silly mistake made by the Chinese engineers, this type of referencing the heaters to ground has been around since the 1950´s.

Just tested my circuit coupled to a Pioneer CD player, thru a Beyer-dynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm phone, and it is dead quiet up to say 3 a clock PM on the volume control.
And the phones are quite loud at 9 a clock AM, and whats more, dead quiet at zero volume, when this thing just buzzed loudly in the left channel before I modded it.

Please, I thought I checked the volume control for any anomalies, but could find none - I read your post, but I could not find any error in the volume control circuit - all connections are there, I think, and everything checks out?


----------



## Jsaw

hi all,

I have recently bought a Chatham 5998 (my 2nd 5598 as spares/collection because i really like the TS 5998), when i turn the volume down to 0, it buzzes like crazy (via the headphone). When volume pot position is more than 0, there's a screeching sound and music comes through like normal (even with 5998 signature sound-ish, i didnt run it more worrying that it might damage something). Anyone has similiar experience ?

Chain is PC (ifi igalvanic 3.0) -> Aune S6 Dac -> DV 336SE -> HD6XX

https://youtu.be/wYPY0FY3JXI   -> Here's the video of what actually happened.

Can anyone please help me diagnose what is happening here ? 

Things i have tried: 
a) Swapping other power tubes. I have no problem with all my other tubes turn volume to 0 including TS 5998, 6AS7G (various), 6080 (various) and etc. 
b) Swapping other 6SN7 tubes retaining the Chatham 5998 as power tube. Same buzzing.
c) I have used a multimeter to check for continuity on all the pins, and it is functioning normally. Only pin 7 and 8 which are the heaters have continuity.
d) Swapping other headphone. Same buzzing.

Things i have seen:
a) The Chatham 5998 runs a tad bit hotter than my TS 5998. (gauging by touch only)

Is this simply a bad tube or pot problem ?


----------



## yangian

Is there two 5670 to one 6sn7 adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 20, 2019)

1955 Sylvania Philco 6SN7GTB Found one of these on Ebay, anything I should look for before trying this one out? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Sylvania-Philco-6SN7GTB-Tube-tested-NOS-balanced-sections/362529742926?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 I read the gtb tubes heat up quick (11 seconds) so DArkvoice ok with this? EDIT---> Oh wow.. just noticed I have a gtb tube in there now..  O.o  back to your regular schedule folks..nothing happening here.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 21, 2019)

atarione said:


> Got my RCA 6AS7G and GE 6AS7GA today.. personally I'm feeling like this has made the larger difference from that of the stock tube vs switching to the RCA 6SN7GT up front..
> 
> I'm really digging the sound from the straight bottle GE 6AS7GA (seems to be from 1956?? code 56-13 so 13th week of 1956 ? right?).   crazy how this tube is so much older than I am.. lol.. oh well.. kinda awesome in someways.. when I was a baby this tube had been sitting around for years and years..


I am super curious if this $11 tube will out perform the Russian tube I have right now, I never thought I'd have a larger collection of tubes than gear...and here I am ordering left and right from all over the world..lol   DArkvoice sounds so awesome, and am happily surprised the Fedelio X2 cans plays nice with it!


----------



## dobigstuff

This is my Final Combo:  USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB Tall Bottle Driver Tube and NOS Western Electric 421 A Power Tube.  

You can also use 5998 and 7236 Power Tubes but the 421A works best for me.  The 5998 will have more Bass than the 6AS7 (if you can't find the 421 A).


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 21, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> This is my Final Combo:  USA NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB Tall Bottle Driver Tube and NOS Western Electric 421 A Power Tube.
> 
> You can also use 5998 and 7236 Power Tubes but the 421A works best for me.  The 5998 will have more Bass than the 6AS7 (if you can't find the 421 A).


Hey boss, if I cant find any Mulard 6080 tubes would the so called rebranded Philips tubes do? Edit: DUDE! That GE Tube cost more than the Darkvoice!


----------



## dobigstuff

JKDJedi:

I have never tried the 6080.  I have tried the NOS Jan Philips 5998 and the NOS Tung Sol 7236.  Both are very good.


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> JKDJedi:
> 
> I have never tried the 6080.  I have tried the NOS Jan Philips 5998 and the NOS Tung Sol 7236.  Both are very good.


Ok, thanks, I just got the Dark 3 weeks ago and tossed the stock tubes and went for the  Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G (just blindly picked it, have no clue what is where when how and why right now) and the Tubestore is saying it's considered NOS now because it's no longer in production as of late last year , something like that.. O.o I'm thinking NOS is anything Older than 50 years or so.. , anyway, bottom line, to my tube virgin ears, sounds dam good. and would love to have some of the Top Picks in my collection, thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## JKDJedi

Didn't know where else to post this question, and since this is a Darkvoice thread... Besides the best possible headphone to ever match with the Darkvoice, one could say the Darkvoice was made with the Hd650 in mind....What other headphones mate well with the Darkvoice?


----------



## SWIN (Jan 24, 2019)

My old AKG K 340 sounds excellent thru the DV, but of course they are "H" as in historic.


----------



## aisalen

It is a good pair with my HD600/650 and Fidelio X1.


----------



## SylvesterH

I use it tung-sol 6sn7 and winged C tubes (from the tubestore) and am quite pleased.
My preferred phones are the AKG k812. They pair quite nicely with DarkVoice.


----------



## JKDJedi

SylvesterH said:


> I use it tung-sol 6sn7 and winged C tubes (from the tubestore) and am quite pleased.
> My preferred phones are the AKG k812. They pair quite nicely with DarkVoice.


This was my first set up, the exact same tubes as you from the same vendor. To me this set up sounded a lot like Class A Solid State Amp. Very clear and precise. I grabbed the Electro-HArmonix 6SN7tube and this tube sounds wider and a bit brighter , perfect for a HD650/6XX . currently jazzing/rocking to a NOS tube, this little guys packs a punch.


----------



## SylvesterH

Because my k812 is a quite bright hp I wanted something warmer. To me the tung-sol 6sn7 with the winged C does not sound bright or like a solid state amp. 
I compared the output of the aforementioned setup with my oppo ha-1 which is a class A ss amp. To me the dark voice sound warmer and with a more lush bass then the oppo. It really tames the akg`s  brightness.


----------



## JKDJedi

SylvesterH said:


> Because my k812 is a quite bright hp I wanted something warmer. To me the tung-sol 6sn7 with the winged C does not sound bright or like a solid state amp.
> I compared the output of the aforementioned setup with my oppo ha-1 which is a class A ss amp. To me the dark voice sound warmer and with a more lush bass then the oppo. It really tames the akg`s  brightness.


Right on, it does push the bass more, and the mids! HD6XX sounds super loud in the mids. I found a 1955 Sylvania Philco preamp tube that really warmed things up, I like it over the Elctro-Harminics I just got. I get the "edgy" sound used for the Harmonics, not the case with the Syvania, super smooth.


----------



## ggillies (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi, I'm a new Darkvoice owner; just received my amp today and am presently burning it in using the stock tubes.  My setup consists of a Skull Canyon Intel PC with two 512GB SSD drives, 16GB RAM, plugged into a Topping D50 DAC via USB.  The Topping is connected to the DV via a set of Audioquest RCA cables (Cinnamon), and finally, a pair of Focal Clear headphones.  I also have a few other sets, including OPPO Digital PM3s and a set of in-ear Westone UM Pro 50s.

It has taken me a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to read through both Part I and Part II of this tube rolling epic, but it has been completely worth it - What a freaking treasure trove of information!

As a long time lover of all things Hi-Fi, I was looking for something to really get me involved again, since my interest had waned, and along comes the headphone revolution, plus the tube amp resurgence, so here I am.

After reading the exhaustive and quite frankly exhausting thread here, I have already got a few tubes on their way for me to try:

A Sylvania 6SN7W short envelope - phenolic base (1940s vintage)





A KenRad JAN CKR 6SN7GT Black Glass (1950s vintage)





And a couple of NOS GE 6080s from the 60s.













Cheers, and thank you all for your contributions to this thread.  I hope I can also contribute something of value.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> Hi, I'm a new Darkvoice owner; just received my amp today and am presently burning it in using the stock tubes.  My setup consists of a Skull Canyon Intel PC with two 512GB SSD drives, 16GB RAM, plugged into a Topping D50 DAC via USB.  The Topping is connected to the DV via a set of Audioquest RCA cables (Cinnamon), and finally, a pair of Focal Clear headphones.  I also have a few other sets, including OPPO Digital PM3s and a set of in-ear Westone UM Pro 50s.
> 
> It has taken me a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to read through both Part I and Part II of this tube rolling epic, but it has been completely worth it - What a freaking treasure trove of information!
> 
> ...


Man...you did your homework! Nice start there. Enjoy your new amp and please chime in with your thoughts on sound. First timer here too with the Darkness and learning quick.


----------



## ggillies (Jan 29, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Man...you did your homework! Nice start there. Enjoy your new amp and please chime in with your thoughts on sound. First timer here too with the Darkness and learning quick.


And what a lot of homework it was!

Lots of listening today, with the stock tubes.  Taking notes on how it sounds on certain of my favorite tracks.  Overall, I am stunned at just how good this amp is for the price, it's shockingly good!

Most of my listening is with flac ripped CDs that I know intimately, but some, I'm doing with DSD files and MQA files as well.  The Topping DAC is doing a great job of making sure the files are played in the correct format.  See picture below.  352.8 khz, 32 bit DSD file.

I am using Audirvana+ on my Windows 10 Skull Canyon PC as my player for all the music - It supports all DSD formats, as well as MQA and sounds great!

Music so far:

Dire Straits - Live at the BBC (recorded uncompressed and basically unmixed, so very raw, tons of dynamics.  Recorded in the basement of the BBC building with an audience of about 50 people before Dire Straits got famous).  This CD makes most systems fall to pieces. (flac ripped CD)

Pink Floyd - Live at Pompeii (flac ripped CD)

DJ Tiesto - Live at the Bridge 2005 (flac ripped CD)

Mahler's 1st - IV - Finale  (DSD 352.8 mhz, 32 bit)

Keith Greeninger & Dyan Kai - Looking for a home (DSD 176.4 mhz, 24 bit).

Bachman-Turner-Overdrive - Not Fragile, (flac ripped CD)

Joseph Haydn String Quartet in D - (DSD 256)

The Stranglers - Golden Brown ((flac ripped CD)

Tour De France - Kraftwerk (flac ripped CD)

Deep Purple - Live in Japan (Double live album, beautifully recorded, and probably Deep Purple at their incredible best).

Mozart - Violin Concerto in D major (MQA)

Yes, I really, REALLY like live music.

P.S. The DV drives my Oppo digital PM3s with zero issues.  Max volume I can deal with is about 9:30.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> And what a lot of homework it was!
> 
> Lots of listening today, with the stock tubes.  Taking notes on how it sounds on certain of my favorite tracks.  Overall, I am stunned at just how good this amp is for the price, it's shockingly good!
> 
> ...


Whats sitting in the 6AS7 slot? looks like a keeper!


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Whats sitting in the 6AS7 slot? looks like a keeper!


Both those tubes came with the Amp.  The front one that looks like it has a keeper (but doesn't) Has "6N8P" printed on it.  The rear is a 6N5P.  As I said, this is what came in the box with the amp.  Is this an anomaly, or are they the usual stock tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> Both those tubes came with the Amp.  The front one that looks like it has a keeper (but doesn't) Has "6N8P" printed on it.  The rear is a 6N5P.  As I said, this is what came in the box with the amp.  Is this an anomaly, or are they the usual stock tubes?


Yes it is, these come stock with cheap China tubes, did you get this used or? Those tubes look like a keeper, kinda jelly to be honest


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Yes it is, these come stock with cheap China tubes, did you get this used or? Those tubes look like a keeper, kinda jelly to be honest


I got it brand new.  I'm itching to try the new tubes I ordered.  I can definitely see the flaws in the sound at the moment.  It's very, very good, but I'm sure it can be a lot better.

Cheers.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I got it brand new.  I'm itching to try the new tubes I ordered.  I can definitely see the flaws in the sound at the moment.  It's very, very good, but I'm sure it can be a lot better.
> 
> Cheers.


Mine came directly from China, do I have a counterfeit? Oh oh, and with super cheap tubes, both unmarked and the power tube with a loose base, tossed it immediately. Preamp is decoration on my desk.


----------



## ggillies

OOOOOOH!!!!!!  Tidal MQA, The Who "Live at Leeds" Magic Bus...  Phenomenal !!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 30, 2019)

ggillies said:


> OOOOOOH!!!!!!  Tidal MQA, The Who "Live at Leeds" Magic Bus...  Phenomenal !!!


 Dude...great recording there. What cans are you using with the Darkness? 
Edit: YOung MAn Blues is SICK!


----------



## ggillies

I'm alternating between my OppoDigital PM3s and my Focal Clears.  The Focals are quite a bit better.

You're right, Young Man Blues is just epic.  That and Magic bus sound insanely good.  I'm beginning to think this may be the best LIVE rock album/recording I have ever heard.

Cheers.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I'm alternating between my OppoDigital PM3s and my Focal Clears.  The Focals are quite a bit better.
> 
> You're right, Young Man Blues is just epic.  That and Magic bus sound insanely good.  I'm beginning to think this may be the best LIVE rock album/recording I have ever heard.
> 
> Cheers.


That was a very good find, I listened to the whole album last night, thanks for sharing! This morning I did a quick research, and found this at Wikipedia "Since its release, _Live at Leeds_ has been cited by several music critics as the best live rock recording of all time".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_at_Leeds


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> That was a very good find, I listened to the whole album last night, thanks for sharing! This morning I did a quick research, and found this at Wikipedia "Since its release, _Live at Leeds_ has been cited by several music critics as the best live rock recording of all time".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_at_Leeds


I can see why.  Despite some of the florid language a couple of the reviewers used, I agree with their general gist, that this album is raw, wild, dangerous and bloody, bloody good!

New tubes arrived.  Pics to follow.


----------



## ggillies

So far, I'm liking the NOS GE 6080 Five Star, combined with the Sylvania 6SN7W the best.  There's something about the Ken-Rad that's not doing it for me.  Here are my listening notes, re: the Ken-Rad/GE combo, vs the Sylvania/GE combo:  

Vocals more forward.  Bass better controlled, tighter than stock tubes, but a bit lacking in quantity and impact vs Sylvania/GE..

Slightly better resolution of details than stock; Sylvania/GE even better.

Treble seems rolled off and lacking in quantity and bite on Magic bus vs Sylvania/GE.

Treble seems ok on Down to the Waterline, but still not as good as Sylvania/GE.

Soundstage seems a bit closed in, lacking height and depth.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I can see why.  Despite some of the florid language a couple of the reviewers used, I agree with their general gist, that this album is raw, wild, dangerous and bloody, bloody good!
> 
> New tubes arrived.  Pics to follow.


I was tempted to add to the collection but got the eagle eye from the wifey..  maybe next month


ggillies said:


> So far, I'm liking the NOS GE 6080 Five Star, combined with the Sylvania 6SN7W the best.  There's something about the Ken-Rad that's not doing it for me.  Here are my listening notes, re: the Ken-Rad/GE combo, vs the Sylvania/GE combo:
> 
> Vocals more forward.  Bass better controlled, tighter than stock tubes, but a bit lacking in quantity and impact vs Sylvania/GE..
> 
> ...


I'd give these tubes 48 hours of burn in before judging, just plug em in and leave on for 2 days.


----------



## 518victoryu

Will 6EM7 tubes work with the darkvoice?


----------



## ggillies

60 hours of burn-in has the Sylvania and KenRad totally quiet (no hum or any other noises at all) and sounding great.

I still like the Sylvania better, but the gap has narrowed.  I am noticing subtle differences between the two that might lend each one to different styles of music.  Overall, the Sylvania has the best balance, but the KenRad has it's strengths, especially in bringing vocals a bit more forward and giving more resolution.  The Sylvania has better bass and more overall punch.  In "Trip Like I Do" off the Crystal Method's Vegas album, there's a "break" where the music goes from relatively quiet and then just explodes...  The Sylvania has a lot more SLAM at that point, so much so, that I had to turn the volume down, where I didn't have to with the KenRad.


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody using Audeze with the Darkness? Or are Planars pretty much a pass for OTL amps?


----------



## SylvesterH

Hi. I do have a Oppo PM-2 (planar magnetic) and it has no issues with my setup (DV 336).


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 7, 2019)

So I'm really on the fence over which tube to grab next, wanting a hall of fame tube. NOS Philips Mullard made 6080  vs. NOSTung Sol Chatham Domino plate 5998.  I currently have a NOS Philco 6AS7 paired with the Electro-Harmonics in the front that sound amazing for my HD6XX. Of the 2 mentioned above, is it worth grabbing both or which one would add some gravy to what I have now?


----------



## ggillies

And I am using the OPPO PM3s which are also Planars.  They sound great and no trouble for the 336 to drive.  I can barely stand the volume at 9 o'clock, so no issues with power/volume.


----------



## JKDJedi

Just got the American made Philips 6080 tube and waiting for the Mullard made Philips (England) 6080 to compare how they sound with the Darkvoice336se. Just for fun. Its a Hobby..right ?


----------



## ggillies

More of a sickness really..  

I have another 7 tubes on their way to me.  Everything from a NOS Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G, to a GE BX7GT, a Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole Black plate, a matched pair of NOS JAN Philips 6SN7WGTAs and finally a pair of Sylvania NOS 6BL7GTAs.

That should keep me out of trouble for a while....  I hope.

JKDJedi, I'd be really interested in your opinion on that Philips 6080 and the Mullard 6080 as well.

Cheers.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 7, 2019)

ggillies said:


> More of a sickness really..
> 
> I have another 7 tubes on their way to me.  Everything from a NOS Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G, to a GE BX7GT, a Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole Black plate, a matched pair of NOS JAN Philips 6SN7WGTAs and finally a pair of Sylvania NOS 6BL7GTAs.
> 
> ...


Thats a nice collection there! Are the Chatman 5998 domino plates? Edit: I'm a big dummy..just saw the rest of the discription


----------



## ggillies (Feb 7, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Thats a nice collection there! Are the Chatman 5998 domino plates?


It doesn't say in the description which may be the longest I have ever seen for a Tube listing, this is what the eBay seller listed it as:

JAN CAHG-6AS7g Chatham Tube*NOS*NIB*3-Mica*1954*Mil Spec*

But the pictures would seem to indicate it IS a domino plate!  But I'm a newbie at this stuff, so maybe someone who is more of an authority can correct me.

It seems to have a metric sh1tton of copper in it's manufacture!


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 7, 2019)

ggillies said:


> It doesn't say in the description which may be the longest I have ever seen for a Tube listing, this is what the eBay seller listed it as:
> 
> JAN CAHG-6AS7g Chatham Tube*NOS*NIB*3-Mica*1954*Mil Spec*
> 
> But the pictures would seem to indicate it IS a domino plate!


It was a long description...  I just caught it myself.. Very nice, I'm tempted to grab one, think I'll wait to hear wht you think about them first.


----------



## attmci

ggillies said:


> It doesn't say in the description which may be the longest I have ever seen for a Tube listing, this is what the eBay seller listed it as:
> 
> JAN CAHG-6AS7g Chatham Tube*NOS*NIB*3-Mica*1954*Mil Spec*
> 
> ...


Sorry. But it's not a 5998 which will cost you a lot more $$ these days.


----------



## ggillies

attmci said:


> Sorry. But it's not a 5998 which will cost you a lot more $$ these days.


Oh, well.  It's fun trying all the various combinations I can get my hands on.  Eventually I'll find a GEC, or another "white whale".

Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> Oh, well.  It's fun trying all the various combinations I can get my hands on.  Eventually I'll find a GEC, or another "white whale".
> 
> Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated.


Yeah you got a lot going on there for ya, gonna be a good weekend! I might be done with future purchases for a bit but am intrested on an RCA grey preamp tube, I think you have one? Whats that one like?


----------



## JKDJedi

Quick question.. How do you guys store your tubes, I currently have mine just laying on top of my desk..


----------



## JKDJedi

I'm starting to think I prefer 6AS7G tubes over 6080, especially the NOS ones. I mean you get a tube amp to get the TUBE sound..I least I did, 6080 doesn't have that tube sound, at least this one doesn't. I usually wait 48 hours for burn in and this one seemed used, so forgone the wait of posting thoughts. (maybe I'll give it 48 hours anyways.. and yes it's freakn HOT.)


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> I'm starting to think I prefer 6AS7G tubes over 6080, especially the NOS ones. I mean you get a tube amp to get the TUBE sound..I least I did, 6080 doesn't have that tube sound, at least this one doesn't. I usually wait 48 hours for burn in and this one seemed used, so forgone the wait of posting thoughts. (maybe I'll give it 48 hours anyways.. and yes it's freakn HOT.)


So which tubes are those pictured?  I agree, the 6080 tubes seem more neutral to me, and yes they run HOT!


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 8, 2019)

ggillies said:


> So which tubes are those pictured?  I agree, the 6080 tubes seem more neutral to me, and yes they run HOT!


NOS JAN Philips ECG 6080WC & Electro-Harmonix 6SN7GTB


----------



## ggillies (Feb 8, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> NOS JAN Philips ECG 6080WC & Electro-Harmonics 6SN7GTB


Nice.

My newest tube is the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA, and holy COW!!  It's a bass monster compared to the other 6SN7 tubes I have tried.  This thing has extension, meat, slam down low and in the mid-bass - I have it paired with the Tung-Sol 6080 at the moment.  Glad I picked it up.  Going to do a lot more back-to-back A/B comparisons with other 6SN7s and then try changing out the power tube.

Most of these tubes I have been changing around have mostly had fairly subtle differences, this one is not a subtle difference!  I will try it with my Focal headphones next, it may be that what sounds really good on my Oppo PM3s is just too much on the Focals.

For EDM (Electronic Dance Music) and Rock, it's great!


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> Nice.
> 
> My newest tube is the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA, and holy COW!!  It's a bass monster compared to the other 6SN7 tubes I have tried.  This thing has extension, meat, slam down low and in the mid-bass - I have it paired with the Tung-Sol 6080 at the moment.  Glad I picked it up.  Going to do a lot more back-to-back A/B comparisons with other 6SN7s and then try changing out the power tube.
> 
> ...


I have something similar, I'll give that a try tonight. Maybe with some wine.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 8, 2019)

ggillies said:


> Nice.
> 
> My newest tube is the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA, and holy COW!!  It's a bass monster compared to the other 6SN7 tubes I have tried.  This thing has extension, meat, slam down low and in the mid-bass - I have it paired with the Tung-Sol 6080 at the moment.  Glad I picked it up.  Going to do a lot more back-to-back A/B comparisons with other 6SN7s and then try changing out the power tube.
> 
> ...


I am So Wowed by this crazy SOOUND>>>>> wow... thanks for the suggestion.. the warm preamp makes a HUGE difference . 1955 Sylvania Philco 6SN7GTB


----------



## SylvesterH

Hi guys,

Do you have any idea where I can find some Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA tubes?
European delivery is a needed.
I`m sucker for quality bass and for my AKG K812 I need as much as possible...

PS
Do this tubes tame the HP`s brightness?


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 11, 2019)

SylvesterH said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Do you have any idea where I can find some Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA tubes?
> European delivery is a needed.
> ...


 https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...a:g:LbcAAOSwVmVbb0Wv:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true Warm tubes should, the few Philco tubes I have a very warm and organic sounding..  get a matching warm power tube and I'd say your good! I don't have one (yet) but the 5998 are said to be the cats meow.


----------



## ggillies (Feb 11, 2019)

What he said..   ^^^  I got mine from that exact seller and that exact Ad on eBay.  These tubes look brand new; in great shape.


----------



## ggillies (Feb 11, 2019)

The newest 6SN7 tube I got is very nice, coming in second place behind my Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA; it's a Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole black plate, I'm not sure of the vintage/age of the tube.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





So far, of all the combinations I have tested, the top pair by a LONG shot are the Tung-Sol 7236 paired with the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA.  I tried the Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G along with a few of my 6SN7s and although good, it's not going to unseat the Tung-Sol 7236.





The Tung-Sol 7236 paired with the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA is phenomenal; head and shoulders above the rest in my particular setup.  It's an amazing combination of deep, controlled bass, with great, crisp decay, beautiful tonality but accurate, and the highs/treble is spot-on but not harsh or over-bright.  By far the best overall balance, yet also the best lows, midrange and highs.

This combo is simultaneously Jack of all trades and master of ALL.

Count me supremely satisfied with it.


----------



## ggillies

P.S.  Just to let you guys know how seriously I love the Tung-Sol 7236, I just bought 4 more NOS off eBay.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> P.S.  Just to let you guys know how seriously I love the Tung-Sol 7236, I just bought 4 more NOS off eBay.


4 of the 7236..Nice. I'm done shopping for now.. Have  3 coming in that should hold me over till the summer. The Philips made by Mullard and 2 Preamps.. Kinda over extended my budget since getting the Darkvoice336se..  have to tie a nut! As the wifey says it..


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> 4 of the 7236..Nice. I'm done shopping for now.. Have  3 coming in that should hold me over till the summer. The Philips made by Mullard and 2 Preamps.. Kinda over extended my budget since getting the Darkvoice336se..  have to tie a nut! As the wifey says it..


I don't even bother telling my wife; discretionary income needs discretion!  I bought 4, because #1 I freaking love the tube, but also #2 I want to stock up in case they become rare, or shoot up in price.  Gotta have some spares.

Cheers and thanks for all the positive feedback and discussions; nice to run into smart, fun people on the Internet.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I don't even bother telling my wife; discretionary income needs discretion!  I bought 4, because #1 I freaking love the tube, but also #2 I want to stock up in case they become rare, or shoot up in price.  Gotta have some spares.
> 
> Cheers and thanks for all the positive feedback and discussions; nice to run into smart, fun people on the Internet.


Hey thank you just the same..i might end up buying one from you


----------



## dobigstuff

Use 7236 or 5998 for Power Tube for best Bass.  If you can find a NOS Western Electric 421 A they are the best.
Here is what I settled on:


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 11, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> Use 7236 or 5998 for Power Tube for best Bass.  If you can find a NOS Western Electric 421 A they are the best.
> Here is what I settled on:


That is a very clean 421A tube if I ever saw one. They are a needle in a haystack right now (unless you have the $320 for the 80's build). I don't  https://www.ebay.com/itm/153372416594


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 12, 2019)

to much wine can be bad for ya..  never mind


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Sylvester H,
if you want bass in a 6SN7 there is only really Ken Rad, I've got some NOS, PM me. Also got loads of different 6SN7,


----------



## dobigstuff

I settled on the NOS USA Tung Sol 6SN7 Driver.


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> I settled on the NOS USA Tung Sol 6SN7 Driver.


Which cans do you prefer for the Darkvoice? See you have 3 to choose from, any of them preferred with the Darkvoice336se?


----------



## ggillies

Gallic Dweller said:


> Sylvester H,
> if you want bass in a 6SN7 there is only really Ken Rad, I've got some NOS, PM me. Also got loads of different 6SN7,


I have to say, that I have the Ken Rad JAN-CKR-6SN7GT VT-231, and on MY setup it is behind the Philips JAN-6SN7WGTA, and the Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole that I have, in terms of bass extension, depth and accuracy.  Again, I am driving a pair of Focal Clears and a pair of Oppo Digital PM3s, so if I was using another pair of headphones, my experience might be different.

I borrowed a pair of my buddy's HiFiMan Sundara headphones and didn't much care for them.  They were open and airy and had a good soundstage, but were recessed in the midrange and VERY bass-light.

Cheers.


----------



## dobigstuff

JKDJedi said:


> Which cans do you prefer for the Darkvoice? See you have 3 to choose from, any of them preferred with the Darkvoice336se?


JKDJedi:
With the Darkvoice I use the HD 700's.  
Tube Headphone Amps (OTL) like Woo and Little Dot as well are great for Headphones 150 ohms or greater.
The LCD-XC, although only 20 ohms and can be driven by many Amps and portable amps, really shine with a powerful balanced Amp
Good Luck


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> JKDJedi:
> With the Darkvoice I use the HD 700's.
> Tube Headphone Amps (OTL) like Woo and Little Dot as well are great for Headphones 150 ohms or greater.
> The LCD-XC, although only 20 ohms and can be driven by many Amps and portable amps, really shine with a powerful balanced Amp
> Good Luck


I know what ya mean, high impedance cans seem to draw a lot of power from the Darkvoice. 9 o'clock is plenty loud on some tracks.


----------



## SylvesterH

ggillies said:


> I have to say, that I have the Ken Rad JAN-CKR-6SN7GT VT-231, and on MY setup it is behind the Philips JAN-6SN7WGTA, and the Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole that I have, in terms of bass extension, depth and accuracy.  Again, I am driving a pair of Focal Clears and a pair of Oppo Digital PM3s, so if I was using another pair of headphones, my experience might be different.
> 
> I borrowed a pair of my buddy's HiFiMan Sundara headphones and didn't much care for them.  They were open and airy and had a good soundstage, but were recessed in the midrange and VERY bass-light.
> 
> Cheers.



Hi,
I found a Philips seller in Greece so no taxes and customs hassle in EU. 
I may push the trigger ....


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 13, 2019)

Got my first RCA (6SN7GT Black Glass Clear Top Mica Corner Snubbers) coming in.. And not sure what the date is on the guy. Has a 722 code on it.


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Got my first RCA (6SN7GT Black Glass Clear Top Mica Corner Snubbers) coming in.. And not sure what the date is on the guy. Has a 722 code on it.


Nice find.

Let us know how they sound to you.


----------



## ggillies

SylvesterH said:


> Hi,
> I found a Philips seller in Greece so no taxes and customs hassle in EU.
> I may push the trigger ....


I hope they work as well for you as they do for me, if you do in fact get one.

Cheers.


----------



## ggillies (Feb 13, 2019)

My thoughts on the various tubes and combinations I have tried so far.  To be taken as very subjective personal opinion.  Your opinion can and will vary...


*Tube rankings.


6AS7/6080/Equivalents.*

1.    *Tung-Sol 7236*
The best of all of them.  After a lot of testing and back-to-back swapping of this with other tubes, I think (I invite comment and constructive criticism on my conclusions) that the Tung-Sol has better “control” than the other equivalents.
What I mean is that with the Tung-Sol 7236 installed, ALL of the 6SN7 or equivalents I swapped in and out showed better performance with the Tung-Sol running the show, than with any other power tube.
My main test materials were:  “Angel” (local FLAC file) by Massive Attack, “Young Man Blues” and “Magic Bus” (Tidal MQA), “Trip Like I Do” Crystal Method Vegas Album (local FLAC file), “Hotel California” Eagles (Tidal MQA), “Feelin’ Good” Nina Simone (Tidal MQA), “Five in One” The Doors L.A. Woman (Remastered, Tidal MQA), “Personal Jesus” Depeche Mode, “Space Truckin’” Deep Purple Live in Japan (local FLAC file).
While testing, the Tung-Sol consistently drove the 6SN7/equivalents, more cleanly, with deeper, more articulate and controlled bass.  On “Angel” by Massive Attack, the opening bass heavy underpinning of the song can sound wet, soggy, indistinct and lacking in impact; a complete mess.
The Tung-Sol cleaned up even the worst of the 6SN7/equivalents, and definitely tightened them up vs. some of the other 6AS7/6080/Equivalents.

2.    *Chatham Electronics JAN CAHG 6AS7G.*
The closest competitor to the Tung-Sol.  A bit sweeter, slightly less bass with less extension and snap.  I think it has a slightly wider soundstage, and maybe presents vocals a tad better than the Tung-Sol.  I could listen to this tube very happily if the Tung-Sol wasn’t available.  Shines on Jazz and acoustic guitar; Nina Simone’s “Sinner Man” and her rendition of “Feelin’ Good” sound gorgeous with this tube.

3.    *Raytheon 6AS7G.*
A fair bit back from the top two.  Not in the same league bass-wise.  Closed-in soundstage comparatively, treble a bit too harsh, lacking punch, a bit of that bloated sound down low, seems slow in transients and decay.

4.    *GE 6080 Metal Base 5 Star.*
I was hoping for good things from this one, but it’s not very memorable.  It’s lacking in bass, not dynamic, very flat sounding and does nothing particularly well.  Treble is way too harsh, lacks the snap of the top two.  This might work for someone with a pair of overly bassy and “exciting” headphones that wants to tone it down a bit, but too lifeless, vanilla and clinical for my tastes.  Sounds a bit like a lifeless solid-state amp to me.
By far my least favorite.

*6SN7/equivalents.*

1.    *Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA*
When combined with the Tung-Sol 7236, it’s by far my favorite.  The pair does everything right in my setup.  Deep, tight, extended, snappy bass.  Gorgeous vocals and midrange, smooth, but impactful treble; triangles, high-hats, cymbals all sound right to me. The decay of notes is fast and spot-on in my opinion; I think that’s why it and the Tung-Sol work so well together, as a pair, they just do everything right, and complement each other.
This is about as well as I have ever heard music played.  There is a ton of detail available, great soundstage and precise placement of sound sources.  On tracks like “Angel” and “Trip Like I do”, the bass is such a major part of the song’s impact that without the bass being right, the songs just don’t have the visceral impact that they should.  This combination does the bass perfectly in my opinion, and everything else across the board as well.
Overall this has impact, definition, extension, just the right amount of sweetness and lushness, just magic!
Combined with the Chatham, it is lovely.  If all I listened to was Jazz and Nina Simone and acoustic guitar, I might choose the Philips and the Chatham, but since I listen to a wide variety of musical types, including rock and EDM, the Philips and Tung-Sol win out for me.

2.    Surprisingly close behind the Philips, is the *Raytheon 6SN7GT 2 hole black plate*.
Nearly as good in the bass department as the Philips; it is a tad less resolving, maybe lacks the overall dynamism of the Philips and some of the snap.  It’s very, very close to the Philips.  It seems a tiny bit rolled off in the treble department comparatively.
It works best with the Tung-Sol for almost all music genres, but paired with the Chatham it’s silky smooth; on “The Look of Love” and “Son of a Preacher Man” by Dusty Springfield, it’s freaking gorgeous, bringing her husky voice to life and showcasing her talent; also amazing for Nina Simone and acoustic version of “Mannish Boy” by Muddy Waters.

3.    *Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6SN7GT VT-231.*
On par with the Sylvania 6SN7W, below.  Better bass than the Sylvania, but behind my top 2.  The bass is just a bit shy of where it needs to be on my powerhouse test songs “Angel” and “Trip Like I Do”.  It doesn’t have the slam or impact necessary for EDM.  On rock like “Magic Bus” by The Who, it’s right there in the bass department.  If you don’t listen to tracks with seriously deep impactful bass, you may not notice.
Again, it’s neck-and-neck with the Sylvania in my opinion, but maybe lacks that last touch of resolution and sweetness on female vocals that the Sylvania has, but it wins on bass and smoothness.

4.    *Sylvania 6SN7W short envelope, phenolic base.*
Shy on bass compared to the top two, but nonetheless a wonderful tube.  I can see why some people love it, it does nothing wrong and is strong across the board.  Maybe the best of them for vocals, it’s sweet and lush without being overly so.  Treble is nice, if a tiny bit subdued.  Generally I’m splitting hairs here, so if you choose this tube, you will be happy with it.

5.    *Fox in the Henhouse! * Just as an experiment, I tried a *Sylvania 6BL7GTA.*  Yes, I know it’s not strictly compatible, having a heater element voltage/amp mismatch, but some people have successfully used them in other Amps.
Sounds a bit strange overall, but surprisingly good.  It is VERY dynamic, maybe overly so.  The soundstage is weird; very closed in.  Bass is excellent, treble a bit harsh.
If I wasn’t worried about long-term damage to my DarkVoice 336, I might be tempted to let this tube burn in for 60+ hours and then see if it opens up.  I think it has the potential to be very good, but I'm not willing to risk my amp to find out.

Cheers.  Comments, constructive criticism and rebuttals welcome.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 13, 2019)

ggillies said:


> Nice find.
> 
> Let us know how they sound to you.


Well, just found out this one's Sylvania made ..or I'm debating if its a Sylvania made tube, kinda hoping it is an original, read an article that 722 marking is Sylvania made tubes (that srated in the 60's)and searching for this same tube on the net reveals same font style with different dates/numbers on them so maybe just coincidental? The guy marked them as Black Glass but it's clearly a grey glass tube (I sent him a message to correct this from further sales he might have) the RCA black glass 6SN7GT  t-231 tubes are $$$ So anyways, thanks..I'll chime in with my thoughts on this guy this Sunday.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> My thoughts on the various tubes and combinations I have tried so far.  To be taken as very subjective personal opinion.  Your opinion can and will vary...
> 
> 
> *Tube rankings.
> ...


Nice write up! I would say your analysis is spot on! I don't like my GE 6AS7GA and it sounds just as dry as your remarks on your GE6080..lol. MAybe GE preamps are ok...not their power amps. I'm really tempted to grab a Ton-SOl 7236 now but have 2 others on the want list (ok maybe just one now).. these sound like they might be the same as the Tong Sol 5998, on searches both these numbers come out on the same description sometimes. Same animal?  I can relate to more than half of your music list there and yes ANGEL has that bass at the beginning of the track that is hit or miss depending on even earphones, let alone amplification. So I trust your review wholeheartedly!


----------



## attmci

ggillies said:


> My thoughts on the various tubes and combinations I have tried so far.  To be taken as very subjective personal opinion.  Your opinion can and will vary...
> 
> 
> *Tube rankings.
> ...


*Sylvania 6BL7GTA*

They/we use it as output tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 14, 2019)

ggillies said:


> Nice find.
> 
> Let us know how they sound to you.


Quick listen (on my lunch hour) with the RCA , she just got in.. 15 mn warm up.. and.. these might have the widest sound stage of what I currently have, and on this live track (Trouble's What Your In by Fink ) echos are more pronounced. very warm tube. And funny how a tube can grow on you.. I almost prefer the Philips 6080WC over anything I have right now. Still have 3 more tubes coming in! If you been following this thread you know one of them is the NOS Mullard made Philips 6080 shipped from Bosnia of all places.


----------



## JKDJedi

Just in..  curious how this will compare to the 6080WC I currently have.. Will burn this one in for sure before comparing.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 18, 2019)

Gonna roll this baby right now... Found it super cheap, grabbed from a thread recommendation. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB 337 1960 48th week. Like all my preamp tubes this one is a lush warm tube, almost carbon copy the 57' RCA Grey Glassed 6SN7GT I last rolled, (the RCA w slightly more detail..maybe..have to a n b them again). This is not an expensive tube, and sounds twice as good as anything "new" within it's price range (Although the Electro-HArmonix might still be my favorite as it separates instruments more clearly, highs are extended vs the warm envelope of sound the older guys give). If you can grab one (Westinghouse) for $10 you got a steal.  Bass is tight here, smooth sounding tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 18, 2019)

I just rolled the stock preamp tube for the first time..and it's not that bad.. w da heck!? Am i beside myself on this? (listening on X2 cans)
LOL..it was the headphones...... yeah, it's dry sounding. Day off here and tube rolling from A to Z right now  Nothing to see here folks...


----------



## JKDJedi

Tube Rolling Preamps! With Fedelio X2 Cans   (notes taken on initial listening..some rambling ) 

 


Titles Played for this Session 

https://tidal.com/playlist/d3bbbc37-25c5-46ef-a587-7d2ef7952b4e

K. - Cigarettes After Sex

4 Minute Warning - Radiohead

Weird Fishes/Arpeggi - Radiohead

Perfect Darkness Live - Fink 

The Dark Knight Orchestra Live - Hans Zimmer

Magic Bus Live - The Who (thanks ggillies)

Rock Of Ages - Def Leppard



Stock Tube:
 

 (K) Sounds wide w/ good bass..surprisingly to me...sounds GOOD. sweet vocals. 

(Weird Fiches)hear crackling on Thoms voice on 

(DArk Knight) I'm super curious how this track will sound with the good preamp tubes now. X2 struggling just a touch with the bass here.. 

(Rock Of Ages) Engaging ..is it the X2 that has widened the sound stage?  Time to try the RAytheon tube.. : )

Up NExt..

NOS Raytheon 6SN7GT: 
 
Now this tube sounds more natural compared to stock, mids more forward. (K)
My lord..the sound stage with the X2 cans

(4 minute warning)
I almost prefer the X2  with the darkness now...crap.. 

Love the echos here off my favorite track.. main vocals not entirely in control, but still enjoyable (Weird Fishes)

true test.. (Dark Knight Orchestra) bass struggles still and to be fair these are not high impedance cans, HD6XX hits this track to perfection, but we still have a few more tubes to roll.. 

(Rock Of Ages) Again vocals more up front (compared to stock) and Raytheon makes the stock feel dry sounding.. STILL ROLLING.. I WANT ROCK N ROLL....

Up NExt... 

NOS Philco short bottle 6SN7GTB:
 
So I'm rolling these as to what i think is better than the former...and wow.. this tube from memory might have the most bass slam of all (k) curious as to how it will do with the (DArk Knight) not as wide as the RAytheon. I need another cup of coffee.. liking the vocals here ..almost HD6XX sounding
I listened to the whole track on that one..

(Four Minute Warning) yup...bass is there..this track is mixed wide so this tube and track are sounding special right now. lead vocal spot on. 

(Weird Fishes) This might be my Radiohead tube..  

(Dark Knight Orchestra) I don't know what kind of drums those are from the very beginning.. but this tube hit every one like a champ! I have tubes coming up that I feel separate the instruments better but this is an engaging tube. Almost forgot how much I liked it. 

(Rock OF Ages) seems to have better imaging here compared to the Raytheon. some left right playing I didn't notice before. STILL ROLLING! Thinking I had more fun with the RAyteon though.. funny.

Up Next..

New Electro-Hermonix 6SN7EH:
 
(k) This tube clearly has it in the highs..crystal clear and extended. bass on par with the Philco. 

(4 minute warning) Nice separation of instruments and vocals, it's inherited of this track, feels so right with this tube. listened to the whole track on this one. 

(Weird Fishes) Tough deciding which tube I like with RAdiohead now..  Philco warm and wide vs Electros detailed and wide sound..like em both!
I get eaten by the worms....and weird fishes!!

(Perfect Darkness)  sounds good

(Dark Knight Orchestra) If you like Hans Zimmer... THIS is the tube to get...mY God! BAss, width, tonality, instrument separation...and the violins...just sing! 

Huge thanks to @ggillies for sharing this magical track.. (Magic Bus Live- The Who) Sounds Superb here with this tube  

(Rock Of Ages) Weird...still prefer the Raytheon on this track ;D 

Up Next..

NOS Westinghouse 6SN7GTB:
 

(K) Sweet sounding, bass is there. and wide sound stage. This track has heavy bass tuning and this tube plays it well. vocal a little sharper than the Philco, Philco has the edge on vocals so far. Thats not saying this tube is bad at all, enjoying this. 

(4 Minute Warning)  First impression is that sound stage..very nice. 

(Weird Fishes) This track can get busy so waiting to hear how this tube handles it.. so far..sounding really good. Descent job! 

(Dark Knight) I'm surprised that this tube is handling this track so well, pumps out more volume, interesting. that sound stage!

(Magic Bus) Ok..for live recordings nothing has beaten this tube..wow..you go Westinghouse.

(Rock Of Ages)  DUDE! Raytheon just lost its Rock title... THIS is the new Heir Of Rock..  so natural.. vocals stand out more, not so lost in the instruments here.. awww man..track is over..  

Up NExt.. 

NOS RCA grey glassed 6SN7GT:
 

(K.) Vocals has a certain quality here.. not sure how to explain it.. bass pronounced in a great way.. I like bass  It's almost as the vocal here is floating above the instruments. nice separation. 

(4 Minute Warning) Again.. the vocals..seem so natural. with the X2 cans..this might be my favorite on vocals. Sound stage just as good as the Westinghouse. wow..whole track..good sign!

(Weird Fishes/Arpeggi) Really diggin this tube about now..  Cymbals super clean on this track. Westinghouse might have the advantage when it gets busy, but by a hair!

(Perfect Darkness) I haven't commented much on this track..because all of these tubes (except stock) almost sounded identical o.O or I just got bored w the track?  Anywho.. BAss, Vocal, and transparency all good. 

(The Dark Knight Orchestra) Thunderous drums... horns loud and clear.... "I'm BAtman"...this tube does BAtman Justice..  (yeah I like Zimmerman, Vangelis too) I still can't believe this is a live recording....superb. I would have to A and B tubes to find the clear winner on this track.. 

(Magic Bus) This album has been said by many critics to be the best live 
 Rock album recording EVER. Everything sounds ...I hate to use these words... "real" and "natural" you can pick up some feed back now and then from the microphones used to record this,..cool, OH..almost forgot..the tube..  Sounding awesome as you'd expect by now.. 

(Rock Of Ages) Right off the bat..sounds like the Westinghouse.. busy track and recorded loud.. so when a tube can tame a track like this one..you know it's good. Westinghouse seems to have slightly more bass. 

Up Next..

NEW Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB:
 
(K.) Don't know why new tubes get the bad wrap..this sounds pretty good, not as wide as the last two tubes rolled (Westinghouse, RCA) but certainly musical. 

(4 Minute Warning) ok..I said not as wide..and as said before, this track has some width to it..and it's here. good vocal. 

(Weird Fishes/Arpeggi) Liking the cymbals, Nice bass roll.. because these are "new" tubes I'm looking for something to critic here.. not finding it. Am I jaded? 

(Perfect Darkness) ok here I can sense the width narrowing down again, sounds good still,  vocal is great.

(The Dark Knight Orchestra)  HAndling the bass drum kicks... a good start, some notes are louder than others as the two former tubes carried everything evenly, so it didn't "move" me like they did.  

(Magic Bus) I like the width from the RCA and Westinghouse, the sound fills the entire spectrum left to right, here it's at spots. ..maybe that's what I'm listening too.. sounds good still. 

(Rock Of Ages)  vocal blends with instruments, nit picking, sounds kinda flat compared to the Westinghouse and RCA , way better than the Stock tube! and this track has all kinds of things going on in it.. recorded...loud. 





More Notes:

The driver tube used for all the Philips/Mullard 6080, DAC used in Direct Mode from iFi Black Label (Double Burr Brown Dacs). Philips Fedelio X2 for the Headphones. All Tracks played from Tidal Master,PC. 15 to 20 mns warm up on all tubes. 
 

Conclusion: 

  So I hope this didn't waste to much of your time with most of this really just blabbering thoughts.. I toke notes on this occasion,  being my first real tube rolling day, with ALL my preamps.. and yes almost took me a day, got kids? And I didn't pick any winners... because it's all subjective..right?


----------



## aisalen

I also listens with my DV336 using Fedelio X1 with very good results complimenting my HD600/650.


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Tube Rolling Preamps! With Fedelio X2 Cans   (notes taken on initial listening..some rambling )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very nice write-up.  Thanks for putting that effort in.


----------



## ggillies (Feb 19, 2019)

This weekend, I went to my local high-end HiFi store to do some critical listening for a new pair of headphones and took my music with me.

My intent was just to listen to the headphones on my list, but as usual, I got sidetracked.

I ended up listening to their state-of-the-art system in their big room.  Around $1.2 million worth of components, including Wilson Audio WAMM speakers etc.

Then moved on to the headphone part.

Setup was an Aurender X100L Music Server/Streamer and an Ayre Codex Amp/DAC.






I listened to a bunch of headphones, including Mr. Speakers Etherflow 2.1s, HiFiMan HE1000 V2s, Audeze LCD 3s.  I also brought my Oppo Digital PM3s and my Focal Clears.

Turns out I like the Focal Clears better than anything else I tried.

I also didn't think the Aurender plus Ayre setup was as good as my Topping D50/Darkvoice setup.  It just sounded dry and flat and lacking in emotion and "realness", especially on stringed instruments, brass and voices.  The treble also seemed a bit dull
Of all the headphones, I disliked the Audeze LCD 3s the most.  The bass was way too bloomy and fat, and the midrange and voices were recessed tremendously compared to the other headphones.  I liked the Etherflow 2.1s the best after my Focals.

And that's a wrap of my weekend shenanigans.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> This weekend, I went to my local high-end HiFi store to do some critical listening for a new pair of headphones and took my music with me.
> 
> My intent was just to listen to the headphones on my list, but as usual, I got sidetracked.
> 
> ...


Wish we had a store like that here in the desert. Adulthood candy store!


----------



## JKDJedi

What do you guys think..will the Darkvoice blow this tube up?


----------



## dobigstuff

Once you find a NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver Tube you probably will find its a keeper.


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> Once you find a NOS USA Tung-Sol Tall Bottle 6SN7 Driver Tube you probably will find its a keeper.


I thought 6SN7 were preamp tubes ?


----------



## dobigstuff

I always thought the Front Tube (6SN7) was the Driver and the rear Tube (6AS7) was the Power Tube.


----------



## ggillies

dobigstuff said:


> I always thought the Front Tube (6SN7) was the Driver and the rear Tube (6AS7) was the Power Tube.


That is my understanding as well.  Big tube in back = power tube, small tube in front = driver tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 23, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> I always thought the Front Tube (6SN7) was the Driver and the rear Tube (6AS7) was the Power Tube.


Tie breaker anyone ?


ggillies said:


> That is my understanding as well.  Big tube in back = power tube, small tube in front = driver tube.


Ok.. Maybe its driver and Preamp? Reason I call it the preamp tube is because Thetubestore.com has the 6SN7 in its Preamp section.. No Driver section on their website..maybe a Canadian thing?

And heres a store in the USA that calls them preamp..no Driver on their website o.O Thinking maybe the term "driver" is used in Europe?

 Not trying to be argumentative..just sharing why I'm a little confused..turns out they can be called anything is what I'm getting from the tube rollers Facebook page. That They could be called "Oscillator", "Flip-flop" and just now watching a Youtube vid...he used the driver term for the preamp section ... So yeah...we're all correct in our terminology of this part of the amp!  the term Driver..sounds like it's describing the Power tube.. but hey..that's just me. MAybe it'll grow on me..lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

ANyone here currently using adapters to roll 12AU7 & 6GC7 type tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

So I decided to read this thread from page 61 on.... LOT OF INFO HERE!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

She has arrived...15 days later..talk about delayed shipment. Chi Fi 
Shu Guang Black Treasure


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> She has arrived...15 days later..talk about delayed shipment. Chi Fi
> Shu Guang Black Treasure


I will be VERY interested in your opinion on this one.  Keep us up to date on what you think of it.

Cheers.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I will be VERY interested in your opinion on this one.  Keep us up to date on what you think of it.
> 
> Cheers.


Thanks.. Just dropped her in, will hibe it a couple days to settle in...and it's a little funky looking with the straight power bottle..lol. Now I need a decent coke bottle to make it look right. RCA, Tung-Sol, ??


----------



## dobigstuff

USA NOS Tung-Sol 5998


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> USA NOS Tung-Sol 5998


Im so tempted.. They are a little pricey. But man... To have one of these in your collection.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I will be VERY interested in your opinion on this one.  Keep us up to date on what you think of it.
> 
> Cheers.



CV181-Z ShuGuang Treasures

Sounds like this thing has a Solid State amp in it..lol.. super precise (for a tube) and great imaging, instruments are clearly separated, and the bass... so accurate. I wanted/needed to pair it with a warm power tube (Philco 6AS7G) to tame it a bit. 6080 tube not needed here.. this thing has some Umph to it. My personal favorite "might" still be the romantic sounding Westinghouse 6SN7GTB (w/ Philips ECG 6080WC) combo. The Black Treasure will reward a great recording for sure. Highs, mids, lows, .. all sounding great to my ears, and this tubes only 48 hours broken in.. I read the magic begins at 100 hours. I also read that this tube mates well with an RCA from several users, so have one coming in soon, I can't imagine it sounding any better than what's dancing off my HD6XX cans right now.  The only knock on the Treasure is a very low hum on initial start up, dam Chi-Fi. Gone of course after the burn in period, no noises of anything after that...pitch black.


----------



## JKDJedi

$10 organiser from Home Depot..


----------



## JKDJedi

So the RCA just arrived and first impression is..it looks carbon copy to the Philco tube I have. O.o O.o


----------



## JKDJedi

Turns out the Philco tube I already had is a rebranded, made by RCA. So there you have it folks. If you want a NOS 6AS7G tube, grab a RCA or Chatham, whatever's cheaper...their all the same if they were made in the USA from 50's on up. This from the 6AS7G thread.


----------



## JKDJedi

Probably my last tube for awhile guys.. The Tung-Sol Tall Boy 6SN7GTB.


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Probably my last tube for awhile guys.. The Tung-Sol Tall Boy 6SN7GTB.


OOOOOOH!!!!  Now THIS one, I'm really interested in.  Give us your thoughts on it.  I might buy one, although, I have swapped so many tubes by now, that I'm pretty set on my Tung-Sol 7236/Philips combination.. MAN does it freaking kick ass on Rock and EDM.!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> OOOOOOH!!!!  Now THIS one, I'm really interested in.  Give us your thoughts on it.  I might buy one, although, I have swapped so many tubes by now, that I'm pretty set on my Tung-Sol 7236/Philips combination.. MAN does it freaking kick ass on Rock and EDM.!!!!


That's the cool thing about tubes, you can mix and match the sound to your moods.


----------



## dobigstuff

JKDJedi said:


> Probably my last tube for awhile guys.. The Tung-Sol Tall Boy 6SN7GTB.


JKDJedi:  I told you that you would love that NOS Tall Bottle Tung Sol Driver.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 5, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> JKDJedi:  I told you that you would love that NOS Tall Bottle Tung Sol Driver.


LOL .. It does have that dinner night out glow to it. Warming it up right now.. gonna give her it's first dance in 15 minutes. 

Edit: TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB Black Plate Horse-Shoe D Getter (w/ RCA 6AS7G)

 Nice home grown warm tube here. Excellent (smooth) BASS, Mids creamy Soft. Great Soundstage.


----------



## attmci (Mar 7, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> LOL .. It does have that dinner night out glow to it. Warming it up right now.. gonna give her it's first dance in 15 minutes.
> 
> Edit: TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB Black Plate Horse-Shoe D Getter (w/ RCA 6AS7G)
> 
> Nice home grown warm tube here. Excellent (smooth) BASS, Mids creamy Soft. Great Soundstage.


You should  save some £ for your next amp/dac instead of investing on these tubes. Unless you plan to be a tube dealer.    Then you need to buy all  those GEC 6as7g, 421a, b65, ECC35 33 on the market now at some discount. 

Maybe this batch too and sell some to your buddy,   ggillies/dobigstuff  here.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-Assorted-USA-6SN7GT-GTA-Tubes-TV-7-D-U-Tested-Good-To-New-Spec/233156619239?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140131123730&meid=7b93bd3f71874587990eb4aa6fd618b7&pid=100167&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=273705594702&itm=233156619239&_trksid=p5411.c100167.m2940


----------



## aisalen

Agree, get the best sounding tube according to your listening preference from your collection and at least an spare and sell all those that you do not used and will just collect dust. Then buy the proceed a Schiit Jot, so that you have an SS too. Better to have some variety of SQ from both tube and SS according to your mood.


----------



## JKDJedi

Funny, none of you guys noticed my signature. Just a hobby guys.


----------



## aisalen

JKDJedi said:


> Funny, none of you guys noticed my signature. Just a hobby guys.


Oops, you have an Audio-GD NFB11.28 which I heard a nice sounding dac/amp too. It is just an advice as if you are not careful, you will slowly accumulating tube which you will not use. Like you, I have many tubes too and almost bought 5998, just can't justify the price and the risk of receiving a defective one. It is impossible for me to  return as a defective from my place to US where I usually buy tubes. Right now, I am very happy with Sylvania VT-231 driver and TUNG SOL 7236 power tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

aisalen said:


> Oops, you have an Audio-GD NFB11.28 which I heard a nice sounding dac/amp too. It is just an advice as if you are not careful, you will slowly accumulating tube which you will not use. Like you, I have many tubes too and almost bought 5998, just can't justify the price and the risk of receiving a defective one. It is impossible for me to  return as a defective from my place to US where I usually buy tubes. Right now, I am very happy with Sylvania VT-231 driver and TUNG SOL 7236 power tubes.


.. I was starting to think my wife put you guys up to this. She told me last week.. "If one more light bulb comes in the mail!!!!"
I'm a Capricorn so if you know them they jump in two feet on any project or said hobby. Don't know what would happened if I got the LaFigaro amp instead of this one, 2 of each tube... $$$$..  So yeah, I am still wanting that one last tube to crown my little collection. The Mother Of All 5998 tubes... The Western Electric 421a. Then I feel I could ride into the sunset. Or not.


----------



## attmci (Mar 7, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> .. I was starting to think my wife put you guys up to this. She told me last week.. "If one more light bulb comes in the mail!!!!"
> I'm a Capricorn so if you know them they jump in two feet on any project or said hobby. Don't know what would happened if I got the LaFigaro amp instead of this one, 2 of each tube... $$$$..  So yeah, I am still wanting that one last tube to crown my little collection. The Mother Of All 5998 tubes... The Western Electric 421a. Then I feel I could ride into the sunset. Or not.


Not.
Tell  your wife you will not buy any tube in the near future.
Then you can secretly buy the batch linked in my last message. Ask the seller marked it as    tools? on the box.


----------



## cathee

Hey guys - 

Interested in experiementing with this aspect of the hobby. Any recommendations for a noob? 

I'd be curious to do a little more reading on this too so if anyone can point me in the direction of some literature that would be greatly appreciated too!

Thanks in advance.


----------



## dobigstuff

421A Power Tube







NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power Tube


----------



## dobigstuff

Driver is always USA NOS Tall Bottle 6SN7


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 8, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> Driver is always USA NOS Tall Bottle 6SN7


Tall Boy is the REAL deal HOLYFIELD.  Whats the difference between the 2 tower boys.. 7236vs421a ? (sound signature)


----------



## dobigstuff

421A slightly more power.  Tighter deeper bass.  But the 7236 is not that far behind.  Then you have the 5998. finally the 6AS7.


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody here powering desktop speakers with their Darkvoice? I see outputs on this thing, wondering how users here are using it if at all..


----------



## ThermalAlchemy

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody here powering desktop speakers with their Darkvoice? I see outputs on this thing, wondering how users here are using it if at all..


 You use it as a preamp output into your main amplifier.  If you have a solid-state power amplifier that sounds a little bright or harsh to you, you could warm it up and soften it by using the dark voice as a preamp .  If you did try to power a set of speakers they would have to roughly be 100db or more efficiency to take it vantage of 1 W or less of power,  not only that the dark voice was meant for higher impedance headphones .  Not low impedance four ohm or eight ohm speakers


----------



## MacMan31

So the Darkvoice 336SE is now available on Massdrop. I've never used a tube amp before. What should I expect compared to solid state amps? I'd be powering HD6XX and 58X headphones.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2019)

MacMan31 said:


> So the Darkvoice 336SE is now available on Massdrop. I've never used a tube amp before. What should I expect compared to solid state amps? I'd be powering HD6XX and 58X headphones.


Buying some NOS (New Old Stock) tubes right away would be your first experience.  A nice warm sound with added bass and width to the Sennheisers. Because of the high impedance of the two cans you have, the Darkvoice will excel in driving them because of it's OTL (Output Transformer-Less) design, almost made just for the Sennheiser. reading back 20 pages (here on this thread, heck, read from page 67 and on) will save you a lot of monies towards tube choices. And the Massdrop Discussion group has a lot of info too. We can also recommend tubes for ya to begin with.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody here powering desktop speakers with their Darkvoice? I see outputs on this thing, wondering how users here are using it if at all..



I doubt the Darkvoice 336 has enough power for speakers unless they are powered. However, I have been enjoying using the Darkvoice 336 as a preamp for my amp + speakers so much that I retired my regular preamp. In my setup

PC->DAC->Darkvoice 336->amp->speakers

Darkvoice 336 produces a detailed, warmer, spatial music presentation, much better enjoyable than my other solid state preamps.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2019)

dobigstuff said:


> 421A slightly more power.  Tighter deeper bass.  But the 7236 is not that far behind.  Then you have the 5998. finally the 6AS7.


       Thanxs


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Ad720

Just got myself a 336se. Should be here next week. I previously had a Little Dot MKii which I foolishly sold off despite having collected some very nice tubes for and I've been missing it for my 6xx. Instead of rebuying I decided to try something different. 

I've already won auctions for a red label RCA 6AS7G and an RCA 6NS7 grey ladder to get started. 

Any recommendations for some "must try" tubes for this guy?  I'm wondering if there equivalents to some of the "must trys" for the LDmkii (Voshkod EV, GE Jan 5654, Mullard 8100, etc).


Any advice to first time owner would be much appreciated.


----------



## aisalen

Ad720 said:


> Just got myself a 336se. Should be here next week. I previously had a Little Dot MKii which I foolishly sold off despite having collected some very nice tubes for and I've been missing it for my 6xx. Instead of rebuying I decided to try something different.
> 
> I've already won auctions for a red label RCA 6AS7G and an RCA 6NS7 grey ladder to get started.
> 
> ...



This is the list I gathered from this thread sorted according to feedback.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-113#post-14431082


----------



## Ad720

aisalen said:


> This is the list I gathered from this thread sorted according to feedback.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-113#post-14431082



Awesome, just what I was looking for. Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Just got myself a 336se. Should be here next week. I previously had a Little Dot MKii which I foolishly sold off despite having collected some very nice tubes for and I've been missing it for my 6xx. Instead of rebuying I decided to try something different.
> 
> I've already won auctions for a red label RCA 6AS7G and an RCA 6NS7 grey ladder to get started.
> 
> ...


You got a library of info in this thread, you'd be surprised what 15 minutes of reading will do for you.


----------



## Ad720

JKDJedi said:


> You got a library of info in this thread, you'd be surprised what 15 minutes of reading will do for you.


Thanks.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 12, 2019)

Anybody else here have the Mullard 6080, wondering if these tubes need longer than average burn in. As of now, I'm not that impressed with the great Mullard 6080 as many have raved about it. I have a $14 Philips/Sylvania JAN 6080WC that has better sound than the Mullard. Better instrument separation, better vocals, and clearly better bass. I went to the 6AS7G thread and was told that high dollar tubes dont really mean anything if they don't play well with your amp.. O.o So the Mullard plays well on most amps except the Darkvoice? Anyway, I'm just venting, hopefully some extended burn in does something to reveal a good sounding tube.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody else here have the Mullard 6080, wondering if these tubes need longer than average burn in. As of now, I'm not that impressed with the great Mullard 6080 as many have raved about it. I have a $14 Philips/Sylvania JAN 6080WC that has better sound than the Mullard. Better instrument separation, better vocals, and clearly better bass. I went to the 6AS7G thread and was told that high dollar tubes dont really mean anything if they don't play well with your amp.. O.o So the Mullard plays well on most amps except the Darkvoice? Anyway, I'm just venting, hopefully some extended burn in does something to reveal a good sounding tube.


Can you share the CODE on your tube?


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Can you share the CODE on your tube?


Looks like AJ1 R1G


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 14, 2019)

These little 9 pin tubes sounds really good, old acquaintance dropped a bunch of them at my worksite and said have at it, take what you want, so far just the 12AU7 , have a few others but not sure if they are compatible.Have a 6GU7,Raytheon12AT7WA, 6BK7,6GH8A, I'm hesitant to try them.. Dont want to fry the Darkness.. 

 These go dirt cheap on Ebay, $3-7 and I'm told sound just as good as the 6SN7 variants. Found the adapter on Ebay as well. I found the 12AU7 listed as compatible to the 6SN7 so did not hesitate to warm her up.

List of compatible tubes:
6CG7 12AU7 6N7G 6N7W ECC31 7N7  6A6 
6N8S CV181 ECC32 5792 6F8G
Too my knowledge guys, dont hold me accountable.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Looks like AJ1 R1G


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-276#post-14455293


----------



## Csericks

JKDJedi said:


> These little 9 pin tubes sounds really good, old acquaintance dropped a bunch of them at my worksite and said have at it, take what you want, so far just the 12AU7 , have a few others but not sure if they are compatible.Have a 6GU7,Raytheon12AT7WA, 6BK7,6GH8A, I'm hesitant to try them.. Dont want to fry the Darkness..
> 
> These go dirt cheap on Ebay, $3-7 and I'm told sound just as good as the 6SN7 variants. Found the adapter on Ebay as well. I found the 12AU7 listed as compatible to the 6SN7 so did not hesitate to warm her up.
> 
> ...



A couple of questions:

Where did you purchase the adapters?
Does this eliminate the hum that can be associated with 6sn7 tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

Csericks said:


> A couple of questions:
> 
> Where did you purchase the adapters?
> Does this eliminate the hum that can be associated with 6sn7 tubes?


Well first things first, there is hum on NEW tubes, no matter what they are, on some, not all, depending on manufacturer. And the adapter, as mentioned in the post, EBay.


----------



## Csericks

I guess I've only used NOS tubes - I've had to resolve the hum with all that I've tried.


----------



## JKDJedi

Csericks said:


> I guess I've only used NOS tubes - I've had to resolve the hum with all that I've tried.


Easy fix, pull out 6AS7 tube, power on Darkvoice with just the 6SN7 tube in. Come back 48 hours later, turn off, plug 6AS7 tube back in, turn Darkvoice on. Hum will be gone. Burn in is key.


----------



## Csericks

I've done that with all of my tubes but I think it is a PITA and I'd rather not. I have not brought myself to do the "Fitz" mod either.


----------



## JKDJedi

Csericks said:


> I've done that with all of my tubes but I think it is a PITA and I'd rather not. I have not brought myself to do the "Fitz" mod either.


Funny to hear tube rolling as PITA


----------



## Csericks

JKDJedi said:


> Funny to hear tube rolling as PITA


The rolling part is fine - I don't particularly like tying up my amp for 48 hours to get rid of hum. My other headphone rig doesn't require the run in so rolling is quick.


----------



## JKDJedi

Csericks said:


> The rolling part is fine - I don't particularly like tying up my amp for 48 hours to get rid of hum. My other headphone rig doesn't require the run in so rolling is quick.


Got it, yeah, the Darkvoice has its limitations. Thinking LaFigaro or Feliks Audio as my next tubed amp. Woo Audio is tips as well.


----------



## Csericks

I agree that there are pros and cons to most any rig - especially at DV336 prices. I have no regrets about the purchase of this amp, I think it is one of the greatest audio bargains out there. I use my 336 in a 2nd (office) system and, for the couple of years that I have owned it, the amp has far exceeded my expectations.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 14, 2019)

Raytheon 12AT7WA, EDITED: The Raytheon 12AT7WA will play on your Drakvoice but just read from a user that it might blow up your headphones?  .. that it has a high Audio Frequency Gain?  Roll @ your OWn Risk.
Too my ears....they sound awesome. Just dont turn the volume up.


----------



## adeadcrab

JKDJedi said:


> Got it, yeah, the Darkvoice has its limitations. Thinking LaFigaro or Feliks Audio as my next tubed amp. Woo Audio is tips as well.


La Figaro is a great amp . Takes the same power tubes as DV too


----------



## gkprabhu

Hello all. Glad to be a part of this wonderful community. Thank you for adding me. I just got a dark voice amp and am rolling tubes for the first time. The stock ones sound pretty good to me. I got a RCA 6as7g and a tung sol 6sn7gt from ebay recently.  My question is regarding the tung sol. It does not light up at all and is just mildly warm to the touch. However the amp does work when it is in it. I am a  relative newbie to tubes, but don't they have to glow for them to be working ? If the tung sol was bad would the amp still work ? I just want to make sure that I didn't get ripped off.  

Also, there is so much info on this thread that it really is overwhelming for someone like me. I would appreciate some advice on tube rolling. I am not going to spend hundreds of dollars on tubes , but if any of you have any recommendations for me to try which are good 'bang for buck' kind of tubes and also sound good please feel free to recommend them.  ( I listen to mostly jazz , some fusion , rock and blues with a little bit of folk ). 

thank you again 
Best 
Gopal


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 17, 2019)

gkprabhu said:


> Hello all. Glad to be a part of this wonderful community. Thank you for adding me. I just got a dark voice amp and am rolling tubes for the first time. The stock ones sound pretty good to me. I got a RCA 6as7g and a tung sol 6sn7gt from ebay recently.  My question is regarding the tung sol. It does not light up at all and is just mildly warm to the touch. However the amp does work when it is in it. I am a  relative newbie to tubes, but don't they have to glow for them to be working ? If the tung sol was bad would the amp still work ? I just want to make sure that I didn't get ripped off.
> 
> Also, there is so much info on this thread that it really is overwhelming for someone like me. I would appreciate some advice on tube rolling. I am not going to spend hundreds of dollars on tubes , but if any of you have any recommendations for me to try which are good 'bang for buck' kind of tubes and also sound good please feel free to recommend them.  ( I listen to mostly jazz , some fusion , rock and blues with a little bit of folk ).
> 
> ...


The preamp tubes do not get as hot as the 6AS7 tubes, so I think your good, Some of my preamp tubes hardly light up too, but like you said it plays well, and your off to a great start. If you read back just 20 pages or so you'll find a gang of info on certain tubes and how we think they sound. I joined the club about 6 months ago and have invested in way more tubes than I really need lol, its fun searching must have tubes. Some are bargains, others cost more than the Darkvoice itself! Happy searching and congrats!


----------



## gkprabhu

JKDJedi said:


> The preamp tubes do not get as hot as the 6AS7 tubes, so I think your good, Some of my preamp tubes hardly light up too, but like you said it plays well, and your off to a great start. If you read back just 20 pages or so you'll find a gang of info on certain tubes and how we think they sound. I joined the club about 6 months ago and have invested in way more tubes than I really need lol, its fun searching must have tubes. Some are bargains, others cost more than the Darkvoice itself! Happy searching and congrats!


Thank you very much for your reply. I am loving the amp so far and am very happy with the purchase. It is truly amazing.


----------



## JKDJedi

Revisiting my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB again, (I get tubes, listen to them briefly, then pack them away for safe keeping)   This was my first replacement tube for the stock 6SN7 that  the Darkvoice shipped with. Grabbed her from TheTubeStore.com , and as reviewed by a buyer on their site, "it is rich and open sounding". A plus if you have a Sennheiser HD650 (or variant of one).


----------



## gkprabhu

JKDJedi said:


> Revisiting my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB again, (I get tubes, listen to them briefly, then pack them away for safe keeping)   This was my first replacement tube for the stock 6SN7 that  the Darkvoice shipped with. Grabbed her from TheTubeStore.com , and as reviewed by a buyer on their site, "it is rich and open sounding". A plus if you have a Sennheiser HD650 (or variant of one).




Hi JKDJedi, I see that you have the hifiman 400i and Senn 6xx. I have both of those headphones as well. What do you think of them in comparison ? Which one do you prefer ?


----------



## JKDJedi

gkprabhu said:


> Hi JKDJedi, I see that you have the hifiman 400i and Senn 6xx. I have both of those headphones as well. What do you think of them in comparison ? Which one do you prefer ?


I like them both the same, the Hifiman is Technically Superior, the HD6XX has more Soul.


----------



## gkprabhu

JKDJedi said:


> I like them both the same, the Hifiman is Technically Superior, the HD6XX has more Soul.



Beautifully put. I agree 100%. I can't make up my mind which one I like better. Different sound signatures, I think that my HD6XX has more bass than the 400i, but the 400i sounds 'crisper'. I love both. Thank you.


----------



## dobigstuff

JKDJedi said:


> Revisiting my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB again,



JKDJedi:
Can you get your hands on a USA NOS Tall Bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7?  Way better than those newer version Tung-Sol.  Just checking.


----------



## JKDJedi

dobigstuff said:


> JKDJedi:
> Can you get your hands on a USA NOS Tall Bottle Tung-Sol 6SN7?  Way better than those newer version Tung-Sol.  Just checking.


I have a tall boy, dont know if it's a legit tall boy, I'll post a pic of it, but, it doesnt sound better. The tall boy I have has a narrow soundstage compared to the NEW Tung-Sol. And the NEW Tung-Sol is richer sounding. The New Tung-Sol sounds really good if you like Radiohead like I do.. I was stuck in my listening chair for a couple of hours really drawn in to the NEW tube. Top pic is NOS bottom pic is NEW.


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## attmci (Mar 19, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Got it, yeah, the Darkvoice has its limitations. Thinking LaFigaro or Feliks Audio as my next tubed amp. Woo Audio is tips as well.


And the GOTL. .   @2359glenn


----------



## Shroomalistic (Mar 19, 2019)

im still waiting for my Darkvoice to arrive,  it will be here thursday.  I got my first tube today and noticed there is a little piece of glass floating around in the tube. 

its an RCA 6as7g,  will it be safe to test out or should I return it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6AS7G-TU...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

thats the one I purchased


----------



## attmci

Shroomalistic said:


> im still waiting for my Darkvoice to arrive,  it will be here thursday.  I got my first tube today and noticed there is a little piece of glass floating around in the tube.
> 
> its an RCA 6as7g,  will it be safe to test out or should I return it.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6AS7G-TUBES-RCA-TOP-GETTER-BLACK-PLATES-USED-TESTED-VARY-GOOD-LOC-H-1/264237729240?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> ...


I won't worry too much about that.


----------



## Shroomalistic

Thank you,  i also got a tung sol 6sn7wgtb to throw in it.  This my first ever tube amp so im kinda excited for it to get here.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> Thank you,  i also got a tung sol 6sn7wgtb to throw in it.  This my first ever tube amp so im kinda excited for it to get here.


This amp plays best with high impedence headphones, just take note of that, and congrats, off to a great start, nice buy there on the RCA.


----------



## Shroomalistic

As of right now, my highest are hd58x jubilee's @150ohms.  Next purchase will be hd6xx.  Just got my emotiva basx,  think ill finally be set on amps once my darkvoice arrives.


----------



## SylvesterH

JKDJedi said:


> This amp plays best with high impedence headphones, just take note of that, and congrats, off to a great start, nice buy there on the RCA.



I kinda disagree. I use it with Akg k812 Pro and Oppo PM-2, both low impedance cans (36 and 32 Ohms) and the sound is spectacular.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 21, 2019)

SylvesterH said:


> I kinda disagree. I use it with Akg k812 Pro and Oppo PM-2, both low impedance cans (36 and 32 Ohms) and the sound is spectacular.


Nice, what tube combo are you using? The general census is that OTL amps by design put out more power at higher impedence, planars in general, even at lower ohms play best with higher power output than say dynamic headphones, but if your having a great experience then hey, more power to you, your headphones might be the exception, also alternate 6AS7 tubes or comparable, can aid in power output, thats why I'm curious what combo you have.


----------



## Shroomalistic

Got my DV today,  so far it sounds amazing and the RCA tube works just fine.   Ive tested it with my 58x jubilees and my k7xx.  Both sound amazing.  The k7xx already has a wide soundstage this just opened it up even more.

My tower of power!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Now this is an interesting combo that I'm about to try, the Western Electric 421A with the ShuGuang CV181-Z (Black Treasure).


----------



## Shroomalistic

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Sylva...&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&redirect=mobile

Does this look like a good sylvania 6sn7gt?  I bought it already,  read good things about 1952 sylvanias


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 25, 2019)

Shroomalistic said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Sylva...&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&redirect=mobile
> 
> Does this look like a good sylvania 6sn7gt?  I bought it already,  read good things about 1952 sylvanias


The one thats the real deal HOLYFIELD has 3 holes and copper wiring at the bottom. And they are not cheap. Shouldnt be that much of a sonic difference though, I dont know really, I almost grabbed one myself, have 2 General Electrics 6SN7GTA coming in today. Tell us what you think about the Sylvania when you get it.


----------



## Shroomalistic

Yeah i knew it wasnt a "badboy"  but from reading these 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/
https://www.tubeworld.com/6sn7.htm
It should still be apretty decent tube, specially being NOS.and the price was great.

Ive got 3 different tung sols 6sn7's coming today.  Should have some fun rolling today..


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 25, 2019)

Shroomalistic said:


> Yeah i knew it wasnt a "badboy"  but from reading these
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/
> https://www.tubeworld.com/6sn7.htm
> ...


Thinking I goofed on the 6SN7GTA tubes.. requires higher amp output ...  X(  the way I'm reading it says if my amp is made specifically for the GTA then no other 6SN7 types can be used.. the darkvoice is not GTA specific so I should be good...right?


----------



## Shroomalistic

Yes,  any 6sn7 variant should be good


----------



## Shroomalistic

JKDJedi said:


> Now this is an interesting combo that I'm about to try, the Western Electric 421A with the ShuGuang CV181-Z (Black Treasure).



That looks like an amazing combo,  Expensive, but amazing.  Waiting to hear your feedback


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> That looks like an amazing combo,  Expensive, but amazing.  Waiting to hear your feedback


Dude! You live in La Quinta California?


----------



## Shroomalistic

yep im your neighbor


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> yep im your neighbor


Lol.. Right on.. We're gonna have to trade tubes in the near future,.. Nice !


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 25, 2019)

Well, not sure if I should be upset or just ok about it, what I thought was gonna be a pair of GE tubes turned out to be one GE tube and one DELCO tube.. Both 6SN7GTA. O.o Anyway the description said side getter and It didn't phase me till I got them, most tubes, that I know of, have them on the top and bottom, on the side? This is my first set of tubes like that.. Kinda stoked about it in a nerdy way. 
Warming the GE up as I'm typing this and will edit my personal thought on sound later tonight. 
EDIT: vocals here are a little sweeter. Maybe because of the small forwardness? Need to sit with these for a bit (week) to get a true sense of what I'm hearing


----------



## Shroomalistic (Mar 25, 2019)

These are the three I got today
GT,GTB, and WGTA

The gtb and wgta are almost identical build wise.  Wgta is taller,  thats the only difference i can see.  Sound wise i cant tell them apart.

All three pair pretty good with my rca 6as7g. 
Should have a sylvania 7236 and sylvania 6sn7 here thursday.


----------



## Ad720

Just popped a GE Jan 6AS7 in. Really happy with this compared to the RCA Jan 6080. Seems more responsive and dynamic. I've been going back and forth on the 6sn7 but I keep going back to the GE GTB. Is 61-43 the date code on those?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Just popped a GE Jan 6AS7 in. Really happy with this compared to the RCA Jan 6080. Seems more responsive and dynamic. I've been going back and forth on the 6sn7 but I keep going back to the GE GTB. Is 61-43 the date code on those?


Yes, my uneducated guess is 61 weeks into 1943.. Can you show us a pic of it?


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> These are the three I got today
> GT,GTB, and WGTA
> 
> The gtb and wgta are almost identical build wise.  Wgta is taller,  thats the only difference i can see.  Sound wise i cant tell them apart.
> ...


Takes about a week before settling in..give em time, nice collection!!


----------



## Ad720

JKDJedi said:


> Yes, my uneducated guess is 61 weeks into 1943.. Can you show us a pic of it?




Certainly.



I also have another with the date code 59-13 which has red dot on the bottom.


----------



## GEK

1959 & 1961


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Certainly.
> 
> 
> 
> I also have another with the date code 59-13 which has red dot on the bottom.


Nice side getters there.. yes so the 188-5 means it's USA made GE, and the 59-13 means 1959- 13th week. Same for the other numbers.. 1961 43rd week.


----------



## Ad720

GEK said:


> 1959 & 1961



Great, that's what I figured. I'm glad to have two, I really enjoy this tube.

I've sort of gone a little crazy grabbing 6SN7 tubes and tried all of these, some only briefly though:



The last one on the right is an RCA.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Great, that's what I figured. I'm glad to have two, I really enjoy this tube.
> 
> I've sort of gone a little crazy grabbing 6SN7 tubes and tried all of these, some only briefly though:
> 
> ...


That Westinghouse.. U Like? Whats your impression on it?


----------



## Ad720

JKDJedi said:


> That Westinghouse.. U Like? Whats your impression on it?



I do. That was the first one that landed and I spent a little time with it before the first of the GE GTBs landed. I feel like it was a little grainy compared to the smoothness of the GE but along with that came a bit more punch. 

The silvertone was a big surprise honestly. That is a very punchy tube, very full sounding.  I'm not crazy about the Tung-sol, also a surprise. I haven't spent much time with the mystery RCA or the National (I believe that the national is a rebranded GE but I'm not sure). I need to give the Sylvania a chance as people seem to really like that one. It's just hard.to take out the GE right now .


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 25, 2019)

Ad720 said:


> I do. That was the first one that landed and I spent a little time with it before the first of the GE GTBs landed. I feel like it was a little grainy compared to the smoothness of the GE but along with that came a bit more punch.
> 
> The silvertone was a big surprise honestly. That is a very punchy tube, very full sounding.  I'm not crazy about theTung-sol, also a surprise. I haven't spent much time with the mystery RCA or the National (I believe that the national is a rebranded GE but I'm not sure). I need to give the Sylvania a chance as people seem to really like that one. It's just hard.to take out the GE right now .


Yeah, I wasnt overly excited about the NOS TungSol the same, however..the NEW (russian made) Tung-Sol.. I like, I also have a Westinghouse and dig the crazy width it has. And yes, the GE I just got is staying in (for now, swapping power tubes for best match ). And thanks for the heads up on the Silvertone. What numbers does that have? Usually a give away on who made it for them.

edit: found it! it's a Sylvania. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sylvania-silvertone-6sn7-tube-vintage-111579344


----------



## SylvesterH

JKDJedi said:


> Nice, what tube combo are you using? The general census is that OTL amps by design put out more power at higher impedence, planars in general, even at lower ohms play best with higher power output than say dynamic headphones, but if your having a great experience then hey, more power to you, your headphones might be the exception, also alternate 6AS7 tubes or comparable, can aid in power output, thats why I'm curious what combo you have.



Hi,

I use a 6AS7 Winged ”C” bought from the thetubestore paired with Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB.
Before buying the amp I was afraid that the experience will be disappointing. My original purpose was to find something to tame the akg k812`s harsh upper mids. Because I had doubts about the pairing with a OTL Tube amp I decided to buy something on the cheaper side, hence the darkvoice.
I have to admit that I was VERY pleasantly surprised.  It does work exceptionally with the akg and also with the planars (oppo) though I have to say that I prefer the pairing with the dynamic cans (although mine are low impedance - 36 ohms).


----------



## Ad720

JKDJedi said:


> Yeah, I wasnt overly excited about the NOS TungSol the same, however..the NEW (russian made) Tung-Sol.. I like, I also have a Westinghouse and dig the crazy width it has. And yes, the GE I just got is staying in (for now, swapping power tubes for best match ). And thanks for the heads up on the Silvertone. What numbers does that have? Usually a give away on who made it for them.
> 
> edit: found it! it's a Sylvania. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sylvania-silvertone-6sn7-tube-vintage-111579344



Cool, good to know. 

Like I said, the combo of the GE GTB and the GE JAN is pretty stellar. May want to give the GE Jan a shot. I got mine from Parts Express ebay store front for $18.69 shipped .


----------



## JKDJedi

SylvesterH said:


> Hi,
> 
> I use a 6AS7 Winged ”C” bought from the thetubestore paired with Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB.
> Before buying the amp I was afraid that the experience will be disappointing. My original purpose was to find something to tame the akg k812`s harsh upper mids. Because I had doubts about the pairing with a OTL Tube amp I decided to buy something on the cheaper side, hence the darkvoice.
> I have to admit that I was VERY pleasantly surprised.  It does work exceptionally with the akg and also with the planars (oppo) though I have to say that I prefer the pairing with the dynamic cans (although mine are low impedance - 36 ohms).


Nice, my first tube set from the same company.  you planning on getting more or settled on these? It's a trip hard to back out of once you start...lol.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 26, 2019)

Ad720 said:


> Cool, good to know.
> 
> Like I said, the combo of the GE GTB and the GE JAN is pretty stellar. May want to give the GE Jan a shot. I got mine from Parts Express ebay store front for $18.69 shipped .


Parts Express.. Yes I think I have the exact same tube and it did not fare well to my ears, kind of thin and sterile. My least used tube. But! I will roll it with these side getters GE tubes! If it works I just might kiss you! 

EDIT: Did a quick lunch time sit down... WOW... DUde... this is a GREAT match. Thanks for the heads up! (No I'm not kissing you)


----------



## jadverkko (Mar 26, 2019)

Im having trouble with my Darkvoice. Every now and then my both channels are working properly but all of a sudden there is a huge pop in the right channel and the sound just dies from right channel. Left channel is working perfectly all the time. I've tried changing tubes but it doesn't seem to affect. Same crap keeps going on. After the sound is gone from the right channel I turn my darkvoice off and let it cool off for a moment and reassemble the tubes. After this Darkvoice is working again but for unknown time. I've send messages to few places that maintain tube amplifiers and other electronics. Just asking here if anybody else has suffered from same kind of problems with Darkvoice and have any idea where the issue is.


----------



## JKDJedi

jadverkko said:


> Im having trouble with my Darkvoice. Every now and then my both channels are working properly but all of a sudden there is a huge pop in the right channel and the sound just dies from right channel. Left channel is working perfectly all the time. I've tried changing tubes but it doesn't seem to affect. Same **** keeps going on. After the sound is gone from the right channel I turn my darkvoice off and let it cool off for a moment and reassemble the tubes. After this Darkvoice is working again but for unknown time. I've send messages to few places that maintain tube amplifiers and other electronics. Just asking here if anybody else has suffered from same kind of problems with Darkvoice and have any idea where the issue is.


Huge bummer, a replacement is probably your best option, just to make sure I would make sure its not your headphones and use a different amp, but I'm sure you've tried that. Hope your Darkvoice came with a some type of return policy. Good luck.


----------



## jadverkko (Mar 26, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Huge bummer, a replacement is probably your best option, just to make sure I would make sure its not your headphones and use a different amp, but I'm sure you've tried that. Hope your Darkvoice came with a some type of return policy. Good luck.



Yeah, It's not the headphones. I think it has to be some sort of thermal issue, so I just wanted to check few places if they can bring my darkvoice back alive before I get into that returning hassle. And thank you, I really hope to have it working. I really liked the sound of this amplifier with my HD600 and HD800. I think if this doesn't work out I will have to buy myself a soldering kit and bottlehead crack. Damn shame I was too late for the bottlehead discounts. I took a bit of a risk buying Darkvoice after reading that they have had quite a bit of QC issues. I was just so certain that those days are gone and I'm going to get fully functional unit. Oh boy was I wrong.


----------



## Ad720

JKDJedi said:


> Parts Express.. Yes I think I have the exact same tube and it did not fare well to my ears, kind of thin and sterile. My least used tube. But! I will roll it with these side getters GE tubes! If it works I just might kiss you!
> 
> EDIT: Did a quick lunch time sit down... WOW... DUde... this is a GREAT match. Thanks for the heads up! (No I'm not kissing you)


----------



## Xibipiio

Hi everyone - this is my first post here, to share my 5-month experience tuberolling the DarkVoice,

My very favorite 6SN7s are the early RCA gray glass (also known a smoked or black glass) with the so-called round “meatball” logo. They sound very clean, low distortion, while still offering all the tube goodness. With prices of the more exotic 6SN7s going though the roof, these are sensible tubes that sound stellar. 

I was lucky to find a couple of Tung-Sol round plates in my stash, and yes, they’re as good as everyone says they are. Just right in every way, But, the RCAs to my ears are just as good in their way and lots cheaper. I see prices for the RCAs going up, so maybe people are catching on. (I don’t sell tubes BTW). Lesser TungSols are good as well, but just a little boring to me.  

Sylvania brown base 6sn7WGTs are another fine choice - they have a little extra punch and drive. 

For power tubes, the RCA and GE 6as7Gs are both nice - warm and detailed. The GE and RCA 6080s I’ve tried don’t impress me. They’re drier and more solid-state.  Stick with the cheap 6as7Gs, in my opinion.  

Enjoy your amp!


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> Great, that's what I figured. I'm glad to have two, I really enjoy this tube.
> 
> I've sort of gone a little crazy grabbing 6SN7 tubes and tried all of these, some only briefly though:
> 
> ...



Hi, how do you like the silvertone ? I just got one and I think that I like it better than my tung sol. It goes really well with my HD6XX.  Thanks for getting me started with some tube recommendations. BTW, I just joined the drop for the Little Dot MKIII on massdrop. This hobby will land me in the poor house one day  .


----------



## Ad720

gkprabhu said:


> Hi, how do you like the silvertone ? I just got one and I think that I like it better than my tung sol. It goes really well with my HD6XX.  Thanks for getting me started with some tube recommendations. BTW, I just joined the drop for the Little Dot MKIII on massdrop. This hobby will land me in the poor house one day  .



The Silvertone is a peach to be honest. I had low expectations but it's a great performer. It came as a lot with a GE GTB, under $10 for both. A couple posts back JKJedi determined it is probably a rebranded Sylvania.


----------



## Ad720

Just got a Tung Sol 6as7g in. 

  

I can see why people like this tube. The soundstage is very nice and it's got some punch while still being quite resolving. I do find it lacking in the smoothness of the GE JAN with the GE GTB. I'm looking forward to pairing this Tung Sol with the bunch of other 6sn7s that I have around. But for now, the king stay the king and that's the GE GTB with the GE JAN .


----------



## Ad720

gkprabhu said:


> Hi, how do you like the silvertone ? I just got one and I think that I like it better than my tung sol. It goes really well with my HD6XX.  Thanks for getting me started with some tube recommendations. BTW, I just joined the drop for the Little Dot MKIII on massdrop. This hobby will land me in the poor house one day  .




Also, I came from a Little Dot MkII. I was listening to planars mostly and sort of foolishly sold it especially because I have Little Dot 1+ and APPJ mini that use the same tubes.  

Instead of rebuying it I decided to try to the Dark Voice for something different, mostly because finding matched pairs of tubes got old and it's a little easier to find random singles. Anyway, in the Little Dot the GE Jan 5654s are a favorite along with the Voshkod EVs. The GE 5 stars are fun and you should be able to get a set for under $10. I didn't care for the sylvanias and the Mullards are good but over priced IMO. I have a set of RCA JRC that I enjoy as well.


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> The Silvertone is a peach to be honest. I had low expectations but it's a great performer. It came as a lot with a GE GTB, under $10 for both. A couple posts back JKJedi determined it is probably a rebranded Sylvania.



Thanks for your reply Ad720. Could you please send me some links for the GE GTB and the GE Jan that you mention ? I would like to get them if they are not too expensive. Looks like your favorite combo for the DV.  Thank you


----------



## Ad720

gkprabhu said:


> Thanks for your reply Ad720. Could you please send me some links for the GE GTB and the GE Jan that you mention ? I would like to get them if they are not too expensive. Looks like your favorite combo for the DV.  Thank you



I got mine on eBay, the GTB was from a regular seller and the GE Jan was from parts express ebay store front.


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> Also, I came from a Little Dot MkII. I was listening to planars mostly and sort of foolishly sold it especially because I have Little Dot 1+ and APPJ mini that use the same tubes.
> 
> Instead of rebuying it I decided to try to the Dark Voice for something different, mostly because finding matched pairs of tubes got old and it's a little easier to find random singles. Anyway, in the Little Dot the GE Jan 5654s are a favorite along with the Voshkod EVs. The GE 5 stars are fun and you should be able to get a set for under $10. I didn't care for the sylvanias and the Mullards are good but over priced IMO. I have a set of RCA JRC that I enjoy as well.



Thanks Ad720, are you referring to the LD MKiii or LD MKii ? I already have the MKii and just joined the drop for the MKiii. I am using the MKii as a pre amp right now. Are the tubes that you mentioned in your post for the MK iii ? I have some GE Jan 5654's that I got for my MKii already.  If you don't mind, please be kind enough to send me some links for reference. 

Thank you much 
Gopal


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> I got mine on eBay, the GTB was from a regular seller and the GE Jan was from parts express ebay store front.


Which tube is the GTB and which one is the Jan ? Sorry, am new to the tube world and don't know much at all. 

Thanks


----------



## Ad720

gkprabhu said:


> Which tube is the GTB and which one is the Jan ? Sorry, am new to the tube world and don't know much at all.
> 
> Thanks




*GE 6SN7GTB* and *GE JAN* *6AS7GA*


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> *GE 6SN7GTB* and *GE JAN* *6AS7GA*


Thank you much


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> *GE 6SN7GTB* and *GE JAN* *6AS7GA*


Hi Ad720 , does this look like the right one ? It is not JAN, does that make a difference ? 

https://www.tubesforamps.com/products/6as7-6080-6h13c/ge-6as7ga


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Just got a Tung Sol 6as7g in.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why people like this tube. The soundstage is very nice and it's got some punch while still being quite resolving. I do find it lacking in the smoothness of the GE JAN with the GE GTB. I'm looking forward to pairing this Tung Sol with the bunch of other 6sn7s that I have around. But for now, the king stay the king and that's the GE GTB with the GE JAN .


I'd give the Tung Sol at least a week worth of listening, I have tubes I just listened for an hour and put away, then 3 months later..."Where were You my whole life"!  That's what I'm doing now, a different 6AS7 tube a week.


----------



## JKDJedi

gkprabhu said:


> Hi Ad720 , does this look like the right one ? It is not JAN, does that make a difference ?
> 
> https://www.tubesforamps.com/products/6as7-6080-6h13c/ge-6as7ga


Probably not and JAN tubes are said to be built a little tougher, for the Joint Army Navy use. but they almost look carbon copy..weird. https://www.parts-express.com/6as7g...dEOQUGk_ZF-yGJI3x2jKrkw7ntKm3h8gaArCuEALw_wcB


----------



## Shroomalistic

just popped in a sylvania NOS 7236.  Im starting to think there is something wrong with my RCA 6as7g,  either that or this sylvania is just amazing.  

Was able to get my hd6xx order in today.  can wait to here these paired up.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> just popped in a sylvania NOS 7236.  Im starting to think there is something wrong with my RCA 6as7g,  either that or this sylvania is just amazing.
> 
> Was able to get my hd6xx order in today.  can wait to here these paired up.


Lol.. Nice! Ive read 7236 sound closer to solid state amps, user here says its his favorite, (ggillies). And the HD6XX are just PHENOMENAL with the Darkvoice, your sitting in the middle of the music, a great match.


----------



## adeadcrab

7236 are the real deal for neutrality.


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> Lol.. Nice! Ive read 7236 sound closer to solid state amps, user here says its his favorite, (ggillies). And the HD6XX are just PHENOMENAL with the Darkvoice, your sitting in the middle of the music, a great match.



Yup..  For the type of music I listen to, which needs decently fast transients (rock, EDM) the 7236 is my pick, closely followed by the Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G, which is a tad warmer.


----------



## ls13coco

Hey all, I know there is a lot of info in here but after pages upon pages of reading, there's almost too much!

Just wondering some of the favorite tube combos for the HD 6xx specifically? (Other HP's are low impedance, matching with them not much concern)
Not looking to spend 100 on a tube I will say, damn Canadian dollar right now..

Cheers!


----------



## adeadcrab

I don't have the HD6XX but I have the HD650
And I also don't have the DV but I have the La Figaro..

7236 make the relaxed sounding HD650 more detailed without adding more bass or mids, currently using some Russian 6H13C and the midbass is overwhelming.. love it.

I disliked the GE 6ASGA - with the HD650 - but you may like that if you really want that overemphasised, laid back, syrupy tube sound.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 30, 2019)

ls13coco said:


> Hey all, I know there is a lot of info in here but after pages upon pages of reading, there's almost too much!
> 
> Just wondering some of the favorite tube combos for the HD 6xx specifically? (Other HP's are low impedance, matching with them not much concern)
> Not looking to spend 100 on a tube I will say, damn Canadian dollar right now..
> ...


I have the HD6XX and if you want the best non expensive combo for the HD6XX with that TUBE sound.. I mean that's why we got a tube amp, right? Get the RCA 6AS7 or Philips JAN 6080WC (Power) with an RCA Grey Glassed 6SN7 or NEW Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (Preamp), Either combo will run you under$60 and turn the HD6XX into Premium sounding Cans. Again..non expensive.. Don't judge my picks..  (Honorable mentions go to anything GE or Sylvania made 6SN7 or 6SN7 variant)


----------



## ls13coco

JKDJedi said:


> I have the HD6XX and if you want the best non expensive combo for the HD6XX with that TUBE sound.. I mean that's why we got a tube amp, right? Get the RCA 6AS7 or Philips JAN 6080WC (Power) with an RCA Grey Glassed 6SN7 or NEW Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (Preamp), Either combo will run you under$60 and turn the HD6XX into Premium sounding Cans. Again..non expensive.. Don't judge my picks..  (Honorable mentions go to anything GE or Sylvania made 6SN7 or 6SN7 variant)



Absolutely I do want the "tube" sound, I have other cans for more in your face detail and bass. I haven't found these for that great of a price yet, but I will keep checking!

Thanks both of you for your help.


----------



## JKDJedi

ls13coco said:


> Absolutely I do want the "tube" sound, I have other cans for more in your face detail and bass. I haven't found these for that great of a price yet, but I will keep checking!
> 
> Thanks both of you for your help.


Just saw you have one of my most looked at headphones I'd love to have one day, are your Ether the closed version? And oh snap! You have the THX 789 Triple A amp.. NICE!


----------



## adeadcrab

JKDJedi said:


> I mean that's why we got a tube amp, right?



Well, it *is* called a 'Dark' Voice


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> Well, it *is* called a 'Dark' Voice


 lol!!


----------



## ls13coco

JKDJedi said:


> Just saw you have one of my most looked at headphones I'd love to have one day, are your Ether the closed version? And oh snap! You have the THX 789 Triple A amp.. NICE!



No sir, they are the open version I put based from a member here, then ordered the new pads and 1.1 tuning kit as they were originally the 1.0. I had my sights set on them for over 3 years as an end-game, but wasn't considering them at that price.. I am not the slightest bit disappointed in them!

Technically, yes! I was one of the lucky few on the last drop, still waiting for the arrival though! Then I can finally make full use of the Ether and LCD as both came with balanced cables, I have yet to use balanced at all.


----------



## ls13coco

Just won a bid I placed last week after reading on Massdrop, it's the GE 5998A. Anyone reading this have experience with it? Price was lower than most recommended tubes, kinda forgot about that bid but.. now it's incoming!


----------



## JKDJedi

If you ever want to brighten your cans a little with some airy highs and clean cymbals.  This. Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 (Sounds great w/ my Lowrider Oldies)


ls13coco said:


> Just won a bid I placed last week after reading on Massdrop, it's the GE 5998A. Anyone reading this have experience with it? Price was lower than most recommended tubes, kinda forgot about that bid but.. now it's incoming!


Looks like a keeper!


----------



## DarkDrummer

ls13coco said:


> Just won a bid I placed last week after reading on Massdrop, it's the GE 5998A. Anyone reading this have experience with it? Price was lower than most recommended tubes, kinda forgot about that bid but.. now it's incoming!


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 1, 2019)

Now Playing...  Mullard/Philips 6080 & Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 ..


Nice dynamic range here, low frequency instruments hit with impact, great sound stage, rich vocals, transparent highs.


----------



## Ad720 (Apr 1, 2019)

Trying out a new combo tonight.

Red print/gold base RCA 6080 and the mystery RCA 6NS7.

Not bad. I guess I'd classify this combination as "tight" but in a good way. Very controlled. Quick transients. But a little on the dry side.


----------



## gkprabhu

Ad720 said:


> *GE 6SN7GTB* and *GE JAN* *6AS7GA*



Hi, I got the 2 tubes and am just listening to music right now. There is a very noticeable hum from the speakers/phones when the amp is in use. is it something that will go away eventually or will it stay with the ge tubes forever ?  Thank you much.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 1, 2019)

gkprabhu said:


> Hi, I got the 2 tubes and am just listening to music right now. There is a very noticeable hum from the speakers/phones when the amp is in use. is it something that will go away eventually or will it stay with the ge tubes forever ?  Thank you much.


Ahh, the classic new hum.. It's a good sign your tube has never been used before. It will, or almost be gone after 48 hours of use. Don't want to sit through 48 hours of hum? Turn the amp off, let it cool down. Pull the 6AS7 tube out. (Leave the 6SN7 tube in!!) Turn the amp on. Don't touch or even look at it for 48 hours. After 48 hours (2 days) turn it off, let it cool down. Push the 6AS7 tube back in, turn the amp on, let it warm up for 15 minutes, plug in your headphones, play some good music....and viola......  Hum gone. Good Luck!!


----------



## gkprabhu

JKDJedi said:


> Ahh, the classic new hum.. It's a good sign your tube has never been used before. It will, or almost be gone after 48 hours of use. Don't want to sit through 48 hours of hum? Turn the amp off, let it cool down. Pull the 6AS7 tube out. (Leave the 6SN7 tube in!!) Turn the amp on. Don't touch or even look at it for 48 hours. After 48 hours (2 days) turn it off, let it cool down. Push the 6AS7 tube back in, turn the amp on, let it warm up for 15 minutes, plug in your headphones, play some good music....and viola......  Hum gone. Good Luck!!


Thank you very much.


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> Ahh, the classic new hum.. It's a good sign your tube has never been used before. It will, or almost be gone after 48 hours of use. Don't want to sit through 48 hours of hum? Turn the amp off, let it cool down. Pull the 6AS7 tube out. (Leave the 6SN7 tube in!!) Turn the amp on. Don't touch or even look at it for 48 hours. After 48 hours (2 days) turn it off, let it cool down. Push the 6AS7 tube back in, turn the amp on, let it warm up for 15 minutes, plug in your headphones, play some good music....and viola......  Hum gone. Good Luck!!



Anybody know why this happens with 6SN7s in the DarkVoice? What happens to the tube after a day or two of being heated up? I’ve never heard of this being a problem in any other amp...

This method works, though, for most tubes. I had a Raytheon with very high hum, now after a couple of days cooking, it’s completely silent.


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> Anybody know why this happens with 6SN7s in the DarkVoice? What happens to the tube after a day or two of being heated up? I’ve never heard of this being a problem in any other amp...
> 
> This method works, though, for most tubes. I had a Raytheon with very high hum, now after a couple of days cooking, it’s completely silent.


Its the cheaper parts underneath, that's the trade off for cheap chi fi, dont like it spend some money's on an upgrade.  Or look into the Fitz Mod. Doesnt bother me personally as I've only dealt with hum on 3 occasions. 48 hours... Thats nothing, it was 3 months ago for me


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> Its the cheaper parts underneath, that's the trade off for cheap chi fi, dont like it spend some money's on an upgrade.  Or look into the Fitz Mod. Doesnt bother me personally as I've only dealt with hum on 3 occasions. 48 hours... Thats nothing, it was 3 months ago for me



I get it! Doesn’t bother me either, and I’m good with the value proposition. But what’s exactly going on with the DV that causes tubes to hum? Something is obviously changing within the tube..


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> I get it! Doesn’t bother me either, and I’m good with the value proposition. But what’s exactly going on with the DV that causes tubes to hum? Something is obviously changing within the tube..


Not sure on the exact terms or parts involved, something to do with the filaments in the tube? And the cheap caps inside the unit itself, towards the beginning of this thread, pages of info on it. Gonna do some research tonight on it. Good question.


----------



## GEK

Always thought that it was the pins making contact with the sockets.


----------



## JKDJedi

GEK said:


> Always thought that it was the pins making contact with the sockets.


No that's the cause of crackling and static, eroded pins, hum comes from 6SN7 tubes, usually on the left side. I had one tube with hum go away in 4 hours, others after 48 and the longest a week later. All part of the fun with the Darkvoice.  Slam in some nice tubes and you get rewarded though! All mentioned on the Original Post of this thread..


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 2, 2019)

So I did some quick research after work and found this on the Woo Audio Site.

*"What to do when my amplifier developed a light hum/noise?*

Noises can come from many different places. e.g. power source, audio cables, environmental EMI. To test, please try the following.

- disconnect all cables from the amplifier.

- install ALL stock tubes.

- move amplifier to another area of the house. e.g. living room, kitchen countertop, office, etc. (This is important to isolate the amplifier from other components).

- keep cell phones, WiFi routers, powered hard drives and other high EMI devices away from the amplifier.

- connect AC power cord directly to a wall outlet (no conditioners or power strips).

- connect headphones to the amplifier and set volume to 11 o’clock position.

- listen through headphone. Do you still hear the hum?

If you still hear the hum, try a ground-lift adapter (for testing ONLY). If the hum goes away using the adapter, you have a ground-loop issue in the house. You can use a device called HUM-X".


I would ONLY try the suggested ground lift adapter if the hum didn't go away after some BURN IN. This from TubeDepot.com


*The Benefits of Burn In Power Tubes*


"New tubes have always sounded and performed better when burned in prior to final testing and installation. By running a tube at full operating voltages (and not just the 6.3 heater voltages) for 24 hours, the cathode is allowed to stabilize and any oxide contaminants on the metal surfaces evaporate and are collected by the getter. The burned in tube is "cleaner" inside and better able to reproduce sound.

For burned in power tubes, the initial matching is less likely to drift and rebiasing isn't needed. The stability is immediately apparent. And for preamp tubes, the improved tone is instantaneously accessible without having to wait for the tube to stabilize making "tube rolling" much easier. And the combined benefit, the burn-in process quickly weeds out weak and suspect tubes before they get into your equipment.

If you want the best for your equipment and your listening enjoyment, burned in tubes are the most effective methods to insure your satisfaction. You don't have to wait for the best".



And then there's this from TheTubeStore.com



*Burning In 6SN7 Tubes for the Dark Voice 336SE Headphone Amp*
POSTED BY JON @ THETUBESTORE ON JULY 7, 2016 IN AUDIOPHILE NERVOSA | 11,446 VIEWS | 36 RESPONSES


"If you have a Dark Voice 336SE headphone amp you likely had the same thought as many other owners.  Why does such a nice little amp come with such poor tubes?  Well most Chinese made amps do come with cheap Chinese tubes because they are readily available.  Unlike some Chinese amps that use obscure tubes with limited or no western equivalents to upgrade to, the DV-336SE uses tubes that have many substitution/upgrade options.  It’s most common to upgrade the 6SN7 tube.  We won’t get into which tube sounds best in this article though.  Rather I want to address the common problem folks find when installing their new or NOS 6SN7 tube.  With rare exception, there is a noticeable hum in the left channel.  This will occur with any 6SN7 tube.  But the good news is that after burn-in they will become dead quiet again.  Here’s what to do:

1. Power off the amp and remove the 6AS7/6H13C power tube.  This will  keep the unit from over heating during this burn-in procedure.

2. Install your new 6SN7 tube and power the amp on again.

3.  Wait.  And keep waiting.  We find that by approximately 72 hours will do.

4.  Power off and re-install the 6AS7/6H13C power tube.

5.  Connect your favorite headphones and power the amp on.

You should find the hum in the left channel has completely disappeared.  At the least you’ll notice it’s much quieter and likely only need one more day to get it completely quiet.

I realize you can modify the amplifier and add a couple capacitors to solve this but the instructions above will “fix” it for  free so give it a try".

The modification mentioned here/above is the Fitz Mod. Replacing the cheap capacitors with nicer ones, kinda need some expertise on this one.  

GOOD LUCK!!


----------



## adeadcrab

Hum is normal in other otl amps I've tried - it's an indication that your tube is in fact, genuine new old stock and hasn't been used. If the hum stays - that's another thing entirely!


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> Hum is normal in other otl amps I've tried - it's an indication that your tube is in fact, genuine new old stock and hasn't been used. If the hum stays - that's another thing entirely!


Kinda just mentioned that above..


----------



## brownstd

I'm a big fan of this amp. Definitely my go-to with my modified HD650s. A while back on Massdrop I put together a short list of my favorite tube pairings (power and driver) with pics for guidance.  Thought it may be of interest. Click here


----------



## brownstd

There are also a number of 6SN7 subs that are well worth checking out.  I'll cut and paste something I posted on massdrop:

  There are a number of tubes that you can sub for the 6sn7 with various adapters. I've tried a 12ax7 to 6sn7, a 6cg7 (the mini 9 pin version of the 6sn7) to 6sn7, a 12au7 to 6sn7 and a 6f8g or 6c8g to 6sn7. Wasn't crazy about the 12ax7 or 12au7 with adapters in the DV. The 6cg7 is an interesting tube. Most of the ones I tried were too bright, but I have a mullard and Amperex that sound fantastic. 
The 6f8g was the tube prior to the 6sn7. I've just recently gotten into these tubes and they are quite impressive. Some people (with way more knowledge than me) claim they are better than the 6sn7. I have a Tung Sol VT99 (Military version of the 6f8g) that is the same tube as the famed 6sn7gt round plates. IMO, the vt99 is a better tube. The national union 6f8g is also amazing. Prices for the 6f8g tubes are generally much lower than the equivalent 6sn7 tubes (the adapter is only about $15). I got the Tung Sol VT99 (nos) for $25 a year ago. Unfortunately that particular tube has skyrocketed in the past year.. but you can still get them much less than the 6sn7 (plus they are gorgeous to look at). 
Also worth noting, the 6f8g adapter will also work with a 6c8g. These tubes are even cheaper. Look for the national union JAN version (I just picked up a NOS for $15 shipped that sounds better than the NU grey glass in my photo above that cost me $70 for NOS). Another great 6c8g is the RCA round plates (also just got that NOS for $20 shipped).


----------



## sennfan83261

brownstd said:


> Also worth noting, the 6f8g adapter will also work with a 6c8g. These tubes are even cheaper. Look for the national union JAN version (I just picked up a NOS for $15 shipped that sounds better than the NU grey glass in my photo above that cost me $70 for NOS). Another great 6c8g is the RCA round plates (also just got that NOS for $20 shipped).


Thanks for the tip, as some NOS 6SN7's are fetching crazy prices now.  I lucked out on a 1954 Sylvania 6SN7GTA chrome top recently to pair with an RCA 6AS7 (black plates).  Any power tube recommendations for the 6c8g's?


----------



## Shroomalistic (Apr 3, 2019)

I snagged a chrome top sylvania off ebay for 8 bucks that sounds freakin amazing.  Paired it with a ge 6as7ga that was 15 shipped.  Such a good combo.  I dont know if its a chrome dome or not.  The chrome top almost reaches the bottom on one side,  very uneven chrome job on it.  What ever it is,  it was a steal.  Its by far my best sounding 6sn7.  i also got a phillips jan 6080wc and a tung sol 7236 coming in.  My HD6xx will be here monday.  So much fun these tube amps are.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shroomalistic said:


> I snagged a chrome top sylvania off ebay for 8 bucks that sounds freakin amazing.  Paired it with a ge 6as7ga that was 15 shipped.  Such a good combo.  I dont know if its a chrome dome or not.  The chrome top almost reaches the bottom on one side,  very uneven chrome job on it.  What ever it is,  it was a steal.  Its by far my best sounding 6sn7.  i also got a phillips jan 6080wc and a tung sol 7236 coming in.  My HD6xx will be here monday.  So much fun these tube amps are.


I'm so tempted with the 7236, rave reviews from everyone here so far. And congrats on the HD6XX.


----------



## brownstd

Shroomalistic said:


> I snagged a chrome top sylvania off ebay for 8 bucks that sounds freakin amazing.  Paired it with a ge 6as7ga that was 15 shipped.  Such a good combo.  I dont know if its a chrome dome or not.  The chrome top almost reaches the bottom on one side,  very uneven chrome job on it.  What ever it is,  it was a steal.  Its by far my best sounding 6sn7.  i also got a phillips jan 6080wc and a tung sol 7236 coming in.  My HD6xx will be here monday.  So much fun these tube amps are.



Hi: The 50's vintage Sylvanias are generally excellent tubes and are usually very affordable (as you point out!).  They are clear, punchy and dynamic.  You may find them to be a bit bright with the 7236...but if you are using an unmodified HD6xx, that combination may be perfect.  Just curious.....is it a GT, GTA or GTB (if you look at the top of the tube in the "chrome" part, there should be lettering specifying which variant it is).  Also, what's the date code?  You can find this on the black base.  you should be able to see three vertically stacked numbers.  The top number is the year (3 would represent 1953) and the bottom two numbers would be the week (so 332 from top to bottom would be 1953, 32nd week).  Enjoy your new tubes and the HD6xx will bring out the best of your DV.


----------



## brownstd

JKDJedi said:


> I'm so tempted with the 7236, rave reviews from everyone here so far. And congrats on the HD6XX.



I HIGHLY recommend the 7236.  The DV can sound "dark" (as many of stated)...especially with the HD650s.  The 7236 is a very clean sounding tube and paired with the right driver tube can sound absolutely magical.  Plus, if you are patient, you can usually get a 7236 for a very reasonable price (I've purchased a few in the $30 range).


----------



## Shroomalistic

I got my 7236 for 30 bucks.  Date code is worn off on the 6sn7. It is a gt and it’s has the same vintage 50’s writing on it


----------



## brownstd

sennfan83261 said:


> Thanks for the tip, as some NOS 6SN7's are fetching crazy prices now.  I lucked out on a 1954 Sylvania 6SN7GTA chrome top recently to pair with an RCA 6AS7 (black plates).  Any power tube recommendations for the 6c8g's?



Yeah, NOS prices are pretty absurd.  Although there are still many bargains out there.  Unless it's a really rare and special tube there's no point in spending lots of $ on a NOS (IMO).  I have had very good luck with "used" tubes (that test well and come from reputable sellers).  

Regarding power tube recommendations, it really depends on the type of 6c8g you get.  I generally try to pair a warmer sounding power tube with a brighter sounding driver and vice versa.  Here are some pairings that I use with a variety of 6c8gs

1.  National Union 6c8g:  this is currently my favorite 6c8g.  very dynamic.  reminds me of a sylvania vt231 but with more body.  I would pair this with a warmer power tube like a Mullard 6080 or a Tung Sol 5998.  
2.  Ken Rad 6c8g:  Like many Ken Rads, this has excellent bottom end and is a little warmer than the 6c8g.  I would pair this with a livelier power tube like a 7236 or a Tung Sol 6AS7G (or even RCA 6AS7G)

The 6f8g is also a great buy and there's more diversity that the 6c8gs (although it's easier to get an inexpensive 6c8g).  I JUST got a Raytheon VT-99 (the military spec version of the 6f8g) for $20....that was the starting bid and no one else bid on it.  That's a phenomenal tube (very similar to the Raytheon vt231).  Very energetic.  Would pair well with any of the power tubes I listed above.


----------



## brownstd

Shroomalistic said:


> I got my 7236 for 30 bucks.  Date code is worn off on the 6sn7. It is a gt and it’s has the same vintage 50’s writing on it



IMO the GTs are the best of the three variants (GT, GTA and GTB).  You got a great deal on that.


----------



## brownstd

I took a few photos of some other tubes I like and recommend (quite a few pics and quite a few tube recommendations--especially 6SN7 substitutes).....however, I couldn't figure out how to upload pics (I gather this is b/c I'm a "new head-fier" and need to reach a certain number of posts before I can do that .  I've been a Head-Fi "taker" for a number of years (I've spent countless hours learning from a variety of forums....Little Dot 1+, 6SN7 reference guide, and the epic orthodynamic roundup thread to name a few), but I haven't "given" much....so I guess I have to earn it 

Anyway, here's a temporary work around.  I left an identical post on Massdrop complete with images and recommendations.  CLICK HERE to go directly to it.   

(.....as I scrolled down to click "post reply" I noticed an option to "upload a file."  Is that the way to insert images into a post?)


----------



## Shroomalistic

brownstd said:


> I took a few photos of some other tubes I like and recommend (quite a few pics and quite a few tube recommendations--especially 6SN7 substitutes).....however, I couldn't figure out how to upload pics (I gather this is b/c I'm a "new head-fier" and need to reach a certain number of posts before I can do that .  I've been a Head-Fi "taker" for a number of years (I've spent countless hours learning from a variety of forums....Little Dot 1+, 6SN7 reference guide, and the epic orthodynamic roundup thread to name a few), but I haven't "given" much....so I guess I have to earn it
> 
> Anyway, here's a temporary work around.  I left an identical post on Massdrop complete with images and recommendations.  CLICK HERE to go directly to it.
> 
> (.....as I scrolled down to click "post reply" I noticed an option to "upload a file."  Is that the way to insert images into a post?)



Yes upload the pic then attach as thumbnail


----------



## sennfan83261 (Apr 4, 2019)

brownstd said:


> Anyway, here's a temporary work around.  I left an identical post on Massdrop complete with images and recommendations.  CLICK HERE to go directly to it.
> 
> (.....as I scrolled down to click "post reply" I noticed an option to "upload a file."  Is that the way to insert images into a post?)


Thanks for yet another informative article.  I picked up a few 6c8's based on your recommendations.  However, after looking at the sale prices of Tung-Sol VT-99's here over the past several years, I wouldn't call their price rise recent.


----------



## brownstd

sennfan83261 said:


> Thanks for yet another informative article.  I picked up a few 6c8's based on your recommendations.  However, after looking at the sale prices of Tung-Sol VT-99's here over the past several years, I wouldn't call their price rise recent.


Yeah, I suppose that's true.  I guess I lucked out....got mine for about $25 a little over a year ago.


----------



## Xibipiio

I recently tried a Tungsol 7236, and it’s definitely the best of the 6as7G variants I’ve tried. Every 6080 I’ve heard has been thin and solid-state sounding, but the 7236 is really nice - a little brighter and more detailed without losing the rich harmonics of the RCA 6as7G. For me, it’s this or the good old cheap 6as7G.  I’ve not had the desire or the scratch to try the really high priced tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 5, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> I recently tried a Tungsol 7236, and it’s definitely the best of the 6as7G variants I’ve tried. Every 6080 I’ve heard has been thin and solid-state sounding, but the 7236 is really nice - a little brighter and more detailed without losing the rich harmonics of the RCA 6as7G. For me, it’s this or the good old cheap 6as7G.  I’ve not had the desire or the scratch to try the really high priced tubes.


I have the Western Electric 421A (Domino Plates, Bottom Getter) and that one is very special. My top 6AS7 replacement for sure.  (6AS7G tube rollers thread) thread here at Head-Fi lists the 7236 as SS Sounding..and the 6080 as Wide Soundstaging with Great vocals.. I can vouch for  the great vocals part, have two 6080 tubes and like em both, one a Mullard, and yeah they don't have much of that "Tube" sound really, I'd love to have the Tung-Sol 7236, seems to be the "must have" tube, just need to wait a bit. (vacation plans have me all tied up)   #firstworldproblems
*
6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging

7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding

5998A - medium gain in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7.

5998 - medium gain at 5, full-bodied sound, same current load as 6AS7

421A - same as 5998 but with matched plates/sections

6AS7G - low gain, the standard tube for most, plentiful

6AS7GA - low gain, like the standard 6AS7G in striaght bottle

6520 - premium 6SA7G, sometimes with 5998 plates

6H13 - russian 6AS7G equivalent. nothing magical with these

ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent. haven't seen one in person

6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load. Make sure you amp can handle it

6336 - like 6528 but low gain at 2, still twice current load. Make sure you amp can handle it*


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 5, 2019)

WInged  C 6H13C w/ Philco 6SN7GTB.... Some "bargain" goodness...now playing..   What's in your Darkvoice? #WeekendIsHere


----------



## adeadcrab

Xibipiio said:


> I recently tried a Tungsol 7236, and it’s definitely the best of the 6as7G variants I’ve tried. Every 6080 I’ve heard has been thin and solid-state sounding, but the 7236 is really nice - a little brighter and more detailed without losing the rich harmonics of the RCA 6as7G. For me, it’s this or the good old cheap 6as7G.  I’ve not had the desire or the scratch to try the really high priced tubes.



most 6080's (looking at you, 6080WC that fireworked on me after a few days) are not even solid state sound, thin and weak imo. 7236 is prob my fav, glad that so many others here agree


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Shroomalistic

Got my Tung Sol 7236 and my hd6xx today.  The hd6xx goes so well with the darkvoice.  Kinda like my emotiva and argons.

Really liking the Tung Sol 7236 and silvania combo.  I don’t feel the need to buy anymore tube


----------



## adeadcrab

7236 are great, no question. how much are they going for nowadays? I *only* have 4 pairs of them on hand


----------



## Xibipiio

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 are great, no question. how much are they going for nowadays? I *only* have 4 pairs of them on hand



Bought one on eBay recently and paid about $30.


----------



## ggillies

Another slightly strange place you can find some decent Tube bargains, is Etsy!!...  Who knew????


----------



## JKDJedi

The "Black Treasure" has a nice tone to it, really crisp in the highs, and tight mids, bass rolls well, very smooth. 

Shu Guang CV181-Z


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> The "Black Treasure" has a nice tone to it, really crisp in the highs, and tight mids, bass rolls well, very smooth.
> 
> Shu Guang CV181-Z


Hi! I'm new here, so bear with me!   Have you ever tried any "Psvane" Treasure Tubes?? Well not treasure but Classic Grade, CV181-T Mark II  Tubes. They replace CV181,  6SN7,  CV181-Z. I picked one up on amazon for $86.00. Not done burning-in yet but so far this tube kicks some serious ASS!!! Anybody out there know how reputable this company is???


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 13, 2019)

DarkDrummer said:


> Hi! I'm new here, so bear with me!   Have you ever tried any "Psvane" Treasure Tubes?? Well not treasure but Classic Grade, CV181-T Mark II  Tubes. They replace CV181,  6SN7,  CV181-Z. I picked one up on amazon for $86.00. Not done burning-in yet but so far this tube kicks some serious ASS!!! Anybody out there know how reputable this company is???


They look sweet as well, the story is the original design team of the Black Treasure left Shu Guang and started their own company... PSVANE. Same tube? (Check out the Sophia) (and those 5692 are $$, this whole group is! )


----------



## DarkDrummer

Thanks dude!!! Excellent video. How in the heck did you find this?


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 17, 2019)

DarkDrummer said:


> Thanks dude!!! Excellent video. How in the heck did you find this?


Lol, I have a few youtube vids in my favorites folder, like to share them once in awhile. I found this from another forum supposedly from a direct Chinese dealer of both tubes..

http://dynacotubeaudio.forumotion.com/t3080-chinese-shuguang-psvane-tube-low-down


"Hello!
I am happy see your message.
Psvane and ShuGuang we talk about it now.
Psvane have three series. Price from low to high is:
HIFI,
Mark-II,
Re-edition Classics

ShuGuang have four series.Price from low to high is:
General Series,
Black Treasures,
Sound Of Nature
Re-edition Classics

ShuGuang earlier than Psvane was born.First they are same factory and same technical personnel.
Now Psvane has been out of ShuGuang and It's an independent brand.
You said KT88 and 6SN7.
ShuGuang's General Series KT88-98 have the most stable performance and price is not high.
6SN7 which one is better hard to say.
If Psvane and ShuGuang comparison of the same level is can't say better or bad.
Because every tube and every amp is different.They parameter is different.Personal preference also different.
But high level's material is better than general."

I see some US retailers starting to carry some of these tubes, but at twice the price you can get them shipped free directly from China (usually Hong Kong or Changsha). China Post hands off to USPS but all tubes I've received were very well packaged and arrived without any rattles. The Black Treasure Shuguangs and MK-II PSVanes in 6SN7 configuration are the best I've heard. The Black Treasures have a rather long burn-in time but the PSVanes are delightful right out of the box. Simple 6SN7 solution in the SP-14 is just to put the PSVs in the front holes and the Treasures in the splitter holes, and after about 50 hours you can swap them out". End Qoute.

I'm now curious about the PSVANE, and will probably grab one later on. Nice buy dude!


----------



## Ad720 (Apr 22, 2019)

Got a couple more odd balls in:


 

The Channel Master is interesting. Really big sounding, aggressive..sort of narrow soundstage.

 The Seeburg reminds me of the mystery blackbase RCA. May be the same tube:


----------



## ggillies

I have my line-up for listening this week.  Trying to re-evaluate part of my collection.  Will take listening notes as I go.


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I have my line-up for listening this week.  Trying to re-evaluate part of my collection.  Will take listening notes as I go.


I'm interested in that CKR Kenrad there to the left...


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> I'm interested in that CKR Kenrad there to the left...


It is a very nice tube.  Smooth, decent Bass, works incredibly well with the Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G.  Perfect for Jazz, Orchestral music.  Not quite fast enough, or with enough bass slam for rock or EDM.

Cheers.


----------



## Ad720 (May 1, 2019)

New combo this evening in the 336.

RCA Black Plate "Coin Base" with the Tung-sol Coke bottle.

This combo is very treble forward but with no sibilence. "Crisp" is the term I'd use. Anyone with complaints of the HD600-650-6xx being "veiled" should take a look in this direction. Imaging is still good, I'd say a bit more narrow than the GE GTB/JAN combo that has become my favorite. With that crispness comes a little thinness and I'm sort of missing the low end. But I'm going to spend a little time with this combo, especially with the coin base.


----------



## Ad720

Also, got both of these guys in this week. 

Unfortunately they both buzz like crazy.


----------



## MajorRocker

Ad720 said:


> Also, got both of these guys in this week.
> 
> Unfortunately they both buzz like crazy.



Did you do the fitz mod to your amp? If not you might have to leave the amp on for a few days before the tube will quite down. I just didn't have the time to do it to all the tubes I have so I did the mod. It's a very easy mod to do and will eliminate all buzz from the tubes.


----------



## Ad720

MajorRocker said:


> Did you do the fitz mod to your amp? If not you might have to leave the amp on for a few days before the tube will quite down. I just didn't have the time to do it to all the tubes I have so I did the mod. It's a very easy mod to do and will eliminate all buzz from the tubes.



I did not. That's just adding a resistor across the tube socket right?


----------



## MajorRocker

Ad720 said:


> I did not. That's just adding a resistor across the tube socket right?



Yes a resistor or capacitor. Here is the thread showing you where to place them. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2


----------



## sennfan83261 (May 8, 2019)

Shroomalistic said:


> Got my Tung Sol 7236 and my hd6xx today.  The hd6xx goes so well with the darkvoice.  Kinda like my emotiva and argons.
> 
> Really liking the Tung-Sol 7236 and silvania combo.  I don’t feel the need to buy anymore tube


I had my Tung-Sol 7236 lying around for a few weeks and just trialed them paired with a warm-sounding tube (1954 Sylvania 6SN7GTA).  I'm really liking this combo so far.  My earlier combo (RCA 6AS7 + 1954 Sylvania 6SN7GTA) was a bit too warm-sounding to my ears at times.  Also, I tried a 1951 and 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT's (tall bottle, 2-hole plates; '51: rectangular micas; '52: round micas) and the Tung-Sol 7236.  The '51's had an incessant hum even after three days of burn-in and the '52's were fine.  Altogether, the pairing sounded more sterile, more pristine than my preferred combo, closer to my Magni 3 but bigger soundstage, better treble response, and the bass being more taut.  In the end, I preferred the warmer tilt of the 7236 + 6SN7GTA pairing.

EDIT: Added Sylvania 6SN7GT + Tung-Sol 7236 impressions


----------



## JKDJedi (May 8, 2019)

Ok guys.... Thanks a lot for all the Tung Sol 7236 posts,,... I caved.... Just ordered one. I guess if your a serious collector or trying to be one...THIS has to be in your collection. Cant wait to hear this thing.


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> I guess if your a serious collector or trying to be one


Hah, I'm just trying to find a pairing that pleases my ears (within budget of course) and then buy a few backups because you never know if prices will increase in the future.  I doubt I'll ever cough up the funds to purchase NOS Sylvania '52 (early) 6SN7GT 3-hole "Bad Boys" (the prices and hype for these are unreal), NOS Tung-Sol 5998's and NOS Western Electric  421A's.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 8, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Hah, I'm just trying to find a pairing that pleases my ears (within budget of course) and then buy a few backups because you never know if prices will increase in the future.  I doubt I'll ever cough up the funds to purchase NOS Sylvania '52 (early) 6SN7GT 3-hole "Bad Boys" (the prices and hype for these are unreal), NOS Tung-Sol 5998's and NOS Western Electric  421A's.


Its not hype, hence the prices.  but yeah, 3 hole bad boys are up there, and the rare Mullard CV181 even more so, and rated high for sound and build. Wouldnt mind having all of them,  #someday #we'llbetogether


----------



## JKDJedi

The Holy Trinity

 
Westinghouse421a 
 Tung-Sol  7236 
Phillips/Mullard 6080


----------



## dobigstuff

JKDJedi:

Now your talking.  Stick with that 421 A Power Tube and Just Listen for a while.


----------



## dobigstuff

Driver is always NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7


----------



## JKDJedi (May 21, 2019)

Still super early to tell, maybe let the Tung Sol 7236  settle down? But..not getting this bass slam it's known to have. Am I jaded? Am using the super mid HD6XX.. gonna switch over to the Fedelio real quick... and nope..no bass slam     Oh wait!!!   Just flipped on   A Lot     by    21 Savage..   yeah, gonna give her another 48 hours... the Darkness will be left on till Sunday midnight!                  "I love You..... For so many reasons......"

Edit: Mates really well with the Black Treasure, kinda figured it would since both seem faster than must tubes I've tried so far. (from my little collection)


----------



## laurianmoga

Guys, I'm really sorry for posting this here, where I'm pretty sure my issue does not belong, but this being the "richest" thread on the 336SE and read by a lot of people, please bear with me. I had to give it a try...
Here's my problem: I got my Darkvoice a couple of days ago and it's already driving me crazy. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of it, the fact that it's completely silent (no hums or hisses between tracks), etc., etc. BUT, I get a static-y noise in the left channel, even with volume turned all the way down and no input cable attached. The noise is pretty random, in terms of "shape" (for lack of a better word) and volume; it gets louder and then disappears completely for a few minutes, just to be back again the next moment. It sounds somewhat similar to the wind blowing on a microphone. Just like some kind of static charge accumulates somewhere in the circuits and then gets discharged into the headphones. I don't know, does this make any sense? And, by the way, it's still there one or two seconds after I turn the amp off. I'm not a native English speaker, so my description might seem a little odd... sorry for that.
Any ideas?
Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

laurianmoga said:


> Guys, I'm really sorry for posting this here, where I'm pretty sure my issue does not belong, but this being the "richest" thread on the 336SE and read by a lot of people, please bear with me. I had to give it a try...
> Here's my problem: I got my Darkvoice a couple of days ago and it's already driving me crazy. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of it, the fact that it's completely silent (no hums or hisses between tracks), etc., etc. BUT, I get a static-y noise in the left channel, even with volume turned all the way down and no input cable attached. The noise is pretty random, in terms of "shape" (for lack of a better word) and volume; it gets louder and then disappears completely for a few minutes, just to be back again the next moment. It sounds somewhat similar to the wind blowing on a microphone. Just like some kind of static charge accumulates somewhere in the circuits and then gets discharged into the headphones. I don't know, does this make any sense? And, by the way, it's still there one or two seconds after I turn the amp off. I'm not a native English speaker, so my description might seem a little odd... sorry for that.
> Any ideas?
> Thanks!


Could be anything, the tube and/or Darkvoice unit itself. If it's the tube the noise should be gone 48 hours of use, if it's the unit...get a replacement asap.


----------



## laurianmoga

On another forum, somebody suggested me to swap the tubes (to one another), in order to see what's wrong. Could I damage my amp by doing so (since the two tubes don't have the same specs)? One more thing: can I safely power up the unit without any tubes installed (just to take them out of the equation)? Next thing would be to take the amp appart, looking for bad solders and stuff like that...
As I bought this from an online shop in Hong Kong, simply sending it back and ask for a replacement might be a little tricky.


----------



## JKDJedi

laurianmoga said:


> On another forum, somebody suggested me to swap the tubes (to one another), in order to see what's wrong. Could I damage my amp by doing so (since the two tubes don't have the same specs)? One more thing: can I safely power up the unit without any tubes installed (just to take them out of the equation)? Next thing would be to take the amp appart, looking for bad solders and stuff like that...
> As I bought this from an online shop in Hong Kong, simply sending it back and ask for a replacement might be a little tricky.


I don't know about the swapping tubes, maybe try a different power outlet or source. If you have some Xtra tubes try them, but it sounds like you don't. Try pulling one of the tubes out at a time, power tube only test, preamp tube only test, and then no tubes...and test, but before that make sure it's plugged into it's own power source and not on a power strip. Test it in a different room too.


----------



## laurianmoga

Thanks, Jedi, I'll do just that and let you know.


----------



## laurianmoga

By the way, sorry for my ignorance, but which one is the power tube? Just curious. I'd put my money on the big one ...


----------



## laurianmoga

And yes, I don't have any extra tubes yet.


----------



## laurianmoga

Well, no tubes - silence; small tube only - silence; large tube only - noise. Interestingly enough, I forgot to take the headphones off while removing the 6AS7 (amp turned off, of course) and, when wiggling the tube just a little bit in order to release it from the socket, I could clearly hear the same kind of static noise. So, I guess it could be the tube itself or the socket contacts.


----------



## sennfan83261 (May 25, 2019)

It could be that the 6N5J power tube (the larger one that goes into the 6AS7  socket) that came with your Darkvoice is bad: https://blog.thetubestore.com/how-to-tell-if-your-tube-is-bad/

The burn-in that others told you about (https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/) is directed towards reducing/eliminating the humming or buzzing of relatively new/unused 6SN7 tubes (the smaller one).


Fortunately, the Chinese 6N5J tube is pretty much crap and replacements can be had: 421A, 5998, 6080, 6AS7, or 7236.  The latter three being the more affordable kind.


----------



## laurianmoga

Thanks, Sennfan. Actually, I decided to order a NOS 6AS7, just to take one of the potential culprits out of the picture. I'll be back after replacing the tube, in a few days.


----------



## laurianmoga

After reading the articles sennfan83261 wrote about, I gently tapped the power tube and the popping/cracking sound disappeared. Surely enough, it came back after a few minutes, but tapping the tube again temporarily fixed the problem. And then again. So, I might be getting somewhere after all. The power tube seems to be bad. (Or the socket?) I'll replace that 6AS7 and see what happens...


----------



## Shroomalistic

laurianmoga said:


> After reading the articles sennfan83261 wrote about, I gently tapped the power tube and the popping/cracking sound disappeared. Surely enough, it came back after a few minutes, but tapping the tube again temporarily fixed the problem. And then again. So, I might be getting somewhere after all. The power tube seems to be bad. (Or the socket?) I'll replace that 6AS7 and see what happens...



sounds like the power tube is bad.  My gray top rca 6s7g is doing the same thing.  started hissing a little and when i tap it the his went away for a while.  Sad it was my favorite driver thus far.  back to my chrome top sylvania.


----------



## sennfan83261

Shroomalistic said:


> sounds like the power tube is bad.  My gray top *rca 6s7g* is doing the same thing.  started hissing a little and when i tap it the his went away for a while.  Sad it was my favorite driver thus far.  back to my chrome top sylvania.


Huh, I thought Darkvoice was only compatible with dual/twin power triodes (e.g. 6AS7, 6080, 7236, and 5998/421A) and dual/twin triodes (6SN7) rather than the pentode 6S7G (see also https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/page-4#post-5198985).


----------



## Shroomalistic

Sorry typo,  6s7n not g


----------



## JKDJedi (May 30, 2019)

laurianmoga said:


> After reading the articles sennfan83261 wrote about, I gently tapped the power tube and the popping/cracking sound disappeared. Surely enough, it came back after a few minutes, but tapping the tube again temporarily fixed the problem. And then again. So, I might be getting somewhere after all. The power tube seems to be bad. (Or the socket?) I'll replace that 6AS7 and see what happens...


So guess what... I turned on my Darkvoice this evening and BUZZZZZZZ!!!!!! What Da HEck! And yes replacing the Power tube remedied it. However, 5 minutes later I put the effected power tube back on and the electrical buzz is gone... o.O Hoping it's just dirty contacts. Anyone here know how to clean them?
Edit: found this guy on google--- > 
*CAIG Laboratories DeoxIT SHIELD Liquid, brush applicator 100% solution 7.4 mL*


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> So guess what... I turned on my Darkvoice this evening and BUZZZZZZZ!!!!!! What Da HEck! And yes replacing the Power tube remedied it. However, 5 minutes later I put the effected power tube back on and the electrical buzz is gone... o.O Hoping it's just dirty contacts. Anyone here know how to clean them?



Whatever you do, don’t use a cleaner that might leave a residue of your tubes. The residue can seep down into your tube sockets and wreak havoc. Maybe try a dry, clean toothbrush first, maybe with a little isopropyl alcohol. If that doesn’t work, there are zero-residue context cleaners you can try.


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> Whatever you do, don’t use a cleaner that might leave a residue of your tubes. The residue can seep down into your tube sockets and wreak havoc. Maybe try a dry, clean toothbrush first, maybe with a little isopropyl alcohol. If that doesn’t work, there are zero-residue context cleaners you can try.


Thanks, I'll give that a try, and have read that Detoxit might be ok to use... thoughts?


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, I'll give that a try, and have read that Detoxit might be ok to use... thoughts?



I don’t have any personal experience with the Caig product. You might give this a try.


----------



## Xibipiio

Oh, and you can clean the sockets themselves by using a pipe cleaner or toothpick with just a little contact cleaner. Be very careful and poke it into the holes to clean them. I love my DV, but you never know if it’s going to act up on any given day! I’ve had noise one day, none the next, with no changes at all


----------



## JKDJedi

Is this overkill for the Darkness?


----------



## ggillies

Take a financial hit for the team, and find out for us, ok?


----------



## JKDJedi (May 30, 2019)

ggillies said:


> Take a financial hit for the team, and find out for us, ok?


LMAO  I'd be Dead Man Walking...


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> Still super early to tell, maybe let the Tung Sol 7236  settle down? But..not getting this bass slam it's known to have. Am I jaded? Am using the super mid HD6XX.. gonna switch over to the Fedelio real quick... and nope..no bass slam     Oh wait!!!   Just flipped on   A Lot     by    21 Savage..   yeah, gonna give her another 48 hours... the Darkness will be left on till Sunday midnight!                  "I love You..... For so many reasons......"
> 
> Edit: Mates really well with the Black Treasure, kinda figured it would since both seem faster than must tubes I've tried so far. (from my little collection)


You’re forgetting the PSVane CV181-TII.....


----------



## JKDJedi

DarkDrummer said:


> You’re forgetting the PSVane CV181-TII.....


Those good in the bass department? Wondering if I should just get a bass heavy can.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 6, 2019)

Wow, my Darkvoice is ultra quiet following the Fitz Mod.  Noisy 6SN7's no more.  Gain is increased though.  Before, I typically listened at 9 o'clock but now the volume dial is at almost half past 8 o'clock.

EDIT: Below 8 o'clock one will encounter channel imbalance, so I had to lower the volume output of my modi 3 to be comfortably between half past 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock.  And that's the trade off with the Fitz mod using 220uF caps.  With 100uF caps, I read in the Fitz mod thread that one will experience bass roll-off when using those caps.

EDIT 2: Not really liking being so close to the channel imbalance threshold.  Lowering my dac's volume helps a bit, but the volume is still too high.  So, I have to lower the overall gain digitally (-10 dB) using Musicbee's EQ.  That should be okay for now, as replacing the crappy linear 250K volume pot is likely going to be my next mod for this unit.

Just reposting the Fitz mod here:

2x 220uF caps in parallel

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5248489

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5480248

https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/556072

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/51tnl6/whats_required_for_modifying_a_darkvoice_336se/


----------



## DarkDrummer (Jun 3, 2019)

laurianmoga said:


> After reading the articles sennfan83261 wrote about, I gently tapped the power tube and the popping/cracking sound disappeared. Surely enough, it came back after a few minutes, but tapping the tube again temporarily fixed the problem. And then again. So, I might be getting somewhere after all. The power tube seems to be bad. (Or the socket?) I'll replace that 6AS7 and see what happens...


I'm having the same problem with a GE  6AS7GA....I love the sound of it but out of nowhere it just starts to snapin', cracklin', and a poppin' !!! I used Deoxit on the tube pins to clean them up and it didn't do anything  as far as helping with the problem. I don't know what to do.


----------



## JKDJedi

DarkDrummer said:


> I'm having the same problem with a GE  6AS7GA....I love the sound of it but out of nowhere it just starts to snapin', cracklin', and a poppin' !!! I used Deoxit on the tube pins to clean them up and it didn't do anything  as far as helping with the problem. I don't know what to do.


Try a different tube if you got it,


----------



## cathee

Hi guys - 

Had my DV for a while now but new to tube-rolling. Where should I begin? 

TIA.


----------



## JKDJedi

cathee said:


> Hi guys -
> 
> Had my DV for a while now but new to tube-rolling. Where should I begin?
> 
> TIA.


Read the last 30 pages....then chime back.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 3, 2019)

cathee said:


> Hi guys -
> 
> Had my DV for a while now but new to tube-rolling. Where should I begin?
> 
> TIA.


Start here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

You can search some of my posts (I don't have many).  I already made my tube preferences for DV336 known here and on the HD650 thread.  Lastly, set yourself a hard limit on what you'll be willing to spend on tubes.  Sometimes it isn't worth it to chase the dragon (looking at you Western Electric 421A).


----------



## Spareribs

Nice amps guys!


----------



## laurianmoga

Hi, guys.
Just replaced the power tube with a NOS Svetlana 6AS7G. The "snapin', cracklin', and poppin'" noise (as DarkDrummer so accurately described it in his post) is completely gone! The sound appears to be a little more detailed, but slightly less bassy. So far, so good.


----------



## JKDJedi

laurianmoga said:


> Hi, guys.
> Just replaced the power tube with a NOS Svetlana 6AS7G. The "snapin', cracklin', and poppin'" noise (as DarkDrummer so accurately described it in his post) is completely gone! The sound appears to be a little more detailed, but slightly less bassy. So far, so good.


The bass will come with some burn in and for the monies a very good tube. I got the new version of that tube, and hear that the new ones are not as good as the NOS versions. Congrats Dude .. enjoy!


----------



## laurianmoga

Thanks, Jedi


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 9, 2019)

If you have the NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB AND the New Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB... Whats your take on them?


----------



## Amish

DarkDrummer said:


> I'm having the same problem with a GE  6AS7GA....I love the sound of it but out of nowhere it just starts to snapin', cracklin', and a poppin' !!! I used Deoxit on the tube pins to clean them up and it didn't do anything  as far as helping with the problem. I don't know what to do.




Also maybe unrelated but make sure your cell phone is not too close to the amp. Might sound strange but any EMF from like a PC or even the signal coming out of your cell phone can cause some strange issues with tubes. Some tube will be fine and some will be more sensitive. I have dealt with this in the past.


----------



## diforce (Jun 17, 2019)

Hey wonder if someone could help, i'm in the process of modding my DV 336se and I have several questions (it is connected to sen HD650 300ohm, will probably be replaced by beyerdynamics T1 gen2)

1. Performing the hum fitz mod for the cathode bridge, should I remove the 2 1k resistors while adding 220uF caps of decent quality ? (annoying hum at left channel for a long time now with Tung Sol preamp tube)
2. Can i remove the output all together If I don't need it ? Can I simply remove the 2k resistor and the 0.47uF cap ?
3. getting an alps rk27 100k is a smart idea considering the gain increase from the 220uF caps right ?
4. planning on removing the 10uF caps on the output stage and replace them with a single 80uF'ish of good quality cap, good idea ?
5. anything else I might as well replace I am not aware of ? since i'm already doing all of the above 
6. is it ok to replace the 33 ,10k ,820 and 1M resistors with ALLEN BRADLEY ones ? considering i measure each for accuracy since they are 5%


----------



## diforce

JKDJedi said:


> If you have the NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB AND the New Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB... Whats your take on them?



I have the red base one but it says 1810 and not 1803, anyway much better than the original, "S" is less knivy in your ears but still sharp, but my tube have a terrible left channel noise, was told to leave it on for 72h but it's on and off for a week now and maybe it went down by 50%


----------



## JKDJedi

diforce said:


> I have the red base one but it says 1810 and not 1803, anyway much better than the original, "S" is less knivy in your ears but still sharp, but my tube have a terrible left channel noise, was told to leave it on for 72h but it's on and off for a week now and maybe it went down by 50%


those numbers are just dates, and the hum will eventually go away.. take out the power tube, the one behind it and just leave it on for 48 hours, that way your Darkone won't over heat during the b u rn in. I really like this tube. One of my favorites and most played.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 24, 2019)

diforce said:


> 1. Performing the hum fitz mod for the cathode bridge, should I remove the 2 1k resistors while adding 220uF caps of decent quality ? (annoying hum at left channel for a long time now with Tung Sol preamp tube)
> 2. Can i remove the output all together If I don't need it ? Can I simply remove the 2k resistor and the 0.47uF cap ?
> 3. getting an alps rk27 100k is a smart idea considering the gain increase from the 220uF caps right ?
> 4. planning on removing the 10uF caps on the output stage and replace them with a single 80uF'ish of good quality cap, good idea ?
> ...



1. Typically, the resistors are left in.  Another head-fi'er posted an alternative to the Fitz mod to temper the single channel buzzing w/o the Fitz mod gain issues.
2. You may.  As described elsewhere, performing this mod brightens the DV sound, thereby bringing it closer to the Crack.  I cannot verify if this true or not.
3. Yes, the gain from performing the Fitz mod with 220uF caps is really noticeable with 6C8G tubes that some of us roll with our DV's  due to the higher amplification factor of those tubes.  With the stock 250K volume pot, listening volumes are at around 8 o'clock or below.  Below 8 o'clock = channel imbalance.  Replacing the stock volume pot is my next mod too.  From a Yaqin Darkvoice mod thread, this post shows supposedly the wiring of the volume pot PCB.  From the same thread, here's a post describing the difficulty of removing the stock volume pot from the front plate.
4. Don't know.  People have replaced the 10uF output caps here and elsewhere (dive into the any of the links in this post, embedded or listed below)
5. Don't know either, but please post the results of your mods, 
6. Don't know, but I hope others can chime in.


Other posts:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5248489
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5480248
https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/556072
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/51tnl6/whats_required_for_modifying_a_darkvoice_336se/

EDIT: bunch of links and added a Fitz mod alternative...


----------



## JKDJedi

I swapped out my HD6XX worn pads with brand new Dekoni Sheepskin Pads and immediately noticed a drop in the mid highs that seemed to elevate the bass a bit, liked the bass boost but missed some of the crispiness.. until I remembered I'm a tube roller   I gots a special tube that has screaming good highs!  Enter the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH  I am now one with earth again..  (and I still have the bass!)


----------



## JKDJedi

Had to share something I just stumbled on this morning..

The Western Electric 421A appears to be a juiced-up 5998 built especially for WE by TS/Chatham. One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5.

(Western Electric 421a (left) pictured with Tung Sol 7236 (centered) and Mullard/Philips 6080 )

The 7236 has a slightly lower transconductance than the 5998, 12,5000 micromohs. And the amplification factor is a bit less than the 5998, 4.8 compared to 5.5. So maybe one could consider it to be a scaled down version of the 5998?


----------



## JKDJedi

And yeah...7236  has some killer bass.... took long enough for that tube to burn in..


----------



## Slade01

diforce said:


> I have the red base one but it says 1810 and not 1803, anyway much better than the original, "S" is less knivy in your ears but still sharp, but my tube have a terrible left channel noise, was told to leave it on for 72h but it's on and off for a week now and maybe it went down by 50%



I also just got the Darkvoice and I have a Tung-Sol Reissue red base one (1809) which I liked running it with my Vali 2.  I tried rolling it into the Darkvoice and immediately I also got that crap left channel noise.  It's weird because the stock tube and the Sylvania 6SN7GTB i have in it now, it is dead silent and works great.  I guess i'm lucky that I at least have another tube that works...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I also just got the Darkvoice and I have a Tung-Sol Reissue red base one (1809) which I liked running it with my Vali 2.  I tried rolling it into the Darkvoice and immediately I also got that crap left channel noise.  It's weird because the stock tube and the Sylvania 6SN7GTB i have in it now, it is dead silent and works great.  I guess i'm lucky that I at least have another tube that works...


Needs to burn in buddy.. worth the little troubles, should be gone after 48 hours, or so.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Needs to burn in buddy.. worth the little troubles, should be gone after 48 hours, or so.



Yeah i know...i've read about that fix.  Like what diforce said above, 72 hrs should hit the mark, and ive read some extreme burn in as much as even double that time.  Lol. I'm not that attached to that tube...the burn in hours are insane for sure.  I think if it was some more expensive NOS type, I would go all out on the waiting.


----------



## JKDJedi

Some Tube Porn for you guys.. copy and pasted from DROP (formally MAssdrop) Not my tubes.. 

 A. With power tubes Tung Sol 7236 (better) or Tung Sol 6AS7G:










1. National Union (CNU 6SN7GT) Grey Glass 





2. RCA VT231—Grey Glass 





3. Ken Rad VT231—Black Glass Staggered plates 





4. Sylvania 6SN7w 





5. Sylvania 6SN7GT “Bad Boy” (1952 vintage, bottom getter) 





6. Brimar 6SN7GT Black base 





7. Brimar CV1988 Brown base 





8. Tung Sol 6SN7GT Round plates 





B. With power tubes Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 or Tung Sol 5998/2399 










1. Sylvania VT231 





2. Raytheon VT231 





3. Raytheon 6SN7-W-GT Brown Base 





4. Tung Sol 6SN7GT—Mouse Ears 





5. Tung Sol 6SN7WGTA Brown Base 





6. CBS 5692 Brown Base 





7. Sylvania 6SN7GTA (“chrome dome”) 





8. Sylvania 6SN7GT (1950’s vintage, bottom getter)


----------



## adeadcrab

Love the collection, especially the 7236. I've read that holding tubes by the glass can affect the structural integrity of the glass by coating it with oil from the skin. I always handle tubes by the metal base, not sure if it's an old wive's tale, or rumour, or what. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> Love the collection, especially the 7236. I've read that holding tubes by the glass can affect the structural integrity of the glass by coating it with oil from the skin. I always handle tubes by the metal base, not sure if it's an old wive's tale, or rumour, or what. Just my 2 cents.


I was the same using gloves all the time, but it's nonsense, the worst thing for these tubes is heat! Go ahead and grab em.


----------



## djyang0530

oh thank you i will also try


----------



## JKDJedi

My weekend combo.. Grey glass RCA and Tung Sol 7236..


----------



## aisalen

Best combo for me is Tung Sol 7236 and Sylvania VT231.


----------



## DarkDrummer

cathee said:


> Hi guys -
> 
> Had my DV for a while now but new to tube-rolling. Where should I begin?
> 
> TIA.





diforce said:


> I have the red base one but it says 1810 and not 1803, anyway much better than the original, "S" is less knivy in your ears but still sharp, but my tube have a terrible left channel noise, was told to leave it on for 72h but it's on and off for a week now and maybe it went down by 50%


I also have the one with the red base . It sounds ok...it has NO low end...I play my drums wearing my Senns and i have a difficult time hearing the drum track with this tube. In short...this tube sucks when it comes to rock and funk...I would not recommend this tube for those styles of music. I need a tube with killer low-end..help?


----------



## JKDJedi

DarkDrummer said:


> I also have the one with the red base . It sounds ok...it has NO low end...I play my drums wearing my Senns and i have a difficult time hearing the drum track with this tube. In short...this tube sucks when it comes to rock and funk...I would not recommend this tube for those styles of music. I need a tube with killer low-end..help?


Look into getting a 6AS7 (or equivalent 7236,5998) for bass, those tubes will do the trick and Sennhieser open backs while playing the drums? Get some closed back cans!


----------



## DarkDrummer

Amish said:


> Also maybe unrelated but make sure your cell phone is not too close to the amp. Might sound strange but any EMF from like a PC or even the signal coming out of your cell phone can cause some strange issues with tubes. Some tube will be fine and some will be more sensitive. I have dealt with this in the past.


I use my iPad for access to Tidal MQA all set up behind my drum kit for easy practice and it sits 3 feet away from my DV. Would that matter?


----------



## DarkDrummer

adeadcrab said:


> Love the collection, especially the 7236. I've read that holding tubes by the glass can affect the structural integrity of the glass by coating it with oil from the skin. I always handle tubes by the metal base, not sure if it's an old wive's tale, or rumour, or what. Just my 2 cents.


That does not apply to vacuum tubes...only halogen light bulbs.


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> Some Tube Porn for you guys.. copy and pasted from DROP (formally MAssdrop) Not my tubes..
> 
> A. With power tubes Tung Sol 7236 (better) or Tung Sol 6AS7G:
> 
> ...


Do you own all of those?


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> Look into getting a 6AS7 (or equivalent 7236,5998) for bass, those tubes will do the trick and Sennhieser open backs while playing the drums? Get some closed back cans!


Open back is what i prefer for drumming. It allows me to hear if I'm playing in perfect time...i have tried closed back in the past and i found that


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 21, 2019)

Rolling a recently delivered Sylvania tall bottle "6SN7GTA" ($6 from ebay) (I think it is actually a yellow lettered 6SN7GTB tall bottle) + RCA 6AS7G.  I think I like my Sylvania VT-231's and early '50s 6SN7GTAs better.  Oh yeah, I also think I prefer to listen to my HD6XX's through the Darkvoice rather than through the THX AAA 789 (balanced or SE).


----------



## sennfan83261

DarkDrummer said:


> Do you own all of those?


I think the owner of those is brownstd, as he posted some other tube combos in another post in this thread.


----------



## Amish (Jun 21, 2019)

DarkDrummer said:


> I use my iPad for access to Tidal MQA all set up behind my drum kit for easy practice and it sits 3 feet away from my DV. Would that matter?



It shouldn't. But I have experienced this issue with my cell phone being too close to the amp. I'm talking like 12" away from the amp. When a text came through or a phone call some tubes would pick up on this and make noise. Some tubes wouldn't.

Also I might point out that if your DV is not isolated properly some noise can be introduced into the output of the amp. For example while using my LA Figaro 339 if I tapped the desk it rested on I would hear the tapping through my headphones. I solved this issue by using an amp stand and vibropads.


----------



## JKDJedi

DarkDrummer said:


> Do you own all of those?


Lol... First sentence of that post reads...Not My Tubes... I just have the consumer version of the RCA Grey Glass pictured there, same sound just not as robust of a build.


----------



## JKDJedi

Thinking of selling my Shuguang CV181-Z (Black Treasure) In near MINT condition, PM me with offer.


----------



## diforce (Jun 21, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Yeah i know...i've read about that fix.  Like what diforce said above, 72 hrs should hit the mark, and ive read some extreme burn in as much as even double that time.  Lol. I'm not that attached to that tube...the burn in hours are insane for sure.  I think if it was some more expensive NOS type, I would go all out on the waiting.



Actually it only recently went away, I had it running non stop for 48 hours and still nothing, and then another week or so of 10 hours per use daily. only now it's barely noticeable but I can still hear it.
Gonna do the 220uF cap mod regardless. 
I can still hear it.


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> Lol... First sentence of that post reads...Not My Tubes... I just have the consumer version of the RCA Grey Glass pictured there, same sound just not as robust of a build.


Sorry...my bad..lol, i'm an idiot!!!


----------



## Keno18

Wow the DarkVoice is sensitive to noise, traced an electrical noise issue to the power brick I was using for my notebook source. Switched to another PS and the noise was gone. Never heard the noise before on any of my other amps. But then again never heard such clear detail in the upper frequencies before either, even with the stock power tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Wow the DarkVoice is sensitive to noise, traced an electrical noise issue to the power brick I was using for my notebook source. Switched to another PS and the noise was gone. Never heard the noise before on any of my other amps. But then again never heard such clear detail in the upper frequencies before either, even with the stock power tube.


Any tubed amp is betterment off its own non shared power source. And be prepared to collect some tubes....lot of fun.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Any tubed amp is betterment off its own non shared power source. And be prepared to collect some tubes....lot of fun.


I've got a small collection from the 2 other amps and preamp I had before the DV. My wife is none too happy about the prospect of yet more tubes. Do you know if the Massdrop DV 336 SE is direct wired or PCB?


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> I've got a small collection from the 2 other amps and preamp I had before the DV. My wife is none too happy about the prospect of yet more tubes. Do you know if the Massdrop DV 336 SE is direct wired or PCB?


Lol.. know what you mean...I get the eagle eyes everytime I'm surfing eBay  and had no clue what pcb was until a quick Google just now..  so don't know, sounds like hand wired amps are expensive.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Lol.. know what you mean...I get the eagle eyes everytime I'm surfing eBay  and had no clue what pcb was until a quick Google just now..  so don't know, sounds like hand wired amps are expensive.


I know the DV used to be direct wired from reading up on the fitz mod (used to cure the hum problem with some 6sn7s) curious if the latest versions still are. I guess I'll wait until the warranty period is over before opening it up.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 23, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> I know the DV used to be direct wired from reading up on the fitz mod (used to cure the hum problem with some 6sn7s) curious if the latest versions still are. I guess I'll wait until the warranty period is over before opening it up.


I purchased mine from Massdrop a few months ago and the internals are pretty much the same as those seen in the old Fitz mod posts, which helped me when I did the same mod on mine.


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> I purchased mine from Massdrop a few months ago and the internals are pretty much the same as those seen in the old Fitz mod posts, which helped me when I did the same mod on mine.


Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. Easier to maintain when it starts aging out.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. Easier to maintain when it starts aging out.


And just got up and did a quick look, just from peeping in the side vents it seems to be what Sennfan83261 is saying, not bad for the price!


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 24, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. Easier to maintain when it starts aging out.


Here is a photo I took before modding the amp:


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> Here are some photos I took before modding the amp:


Very nice, did not expect to see such care at this price point. I'm a happy camper with this purchase.


----------



## Spareribs

The inside is beautiful looking. I generally prefer no circuit boards if possible


----------



## Keno18

Ordered a Tung-Sol 7236 this afternoon. Can't wait (but have to).


----------



## DarkDrummer

Keno18 said:


> Ordered a Tung-Sol 7236 this afternoon. Can't wait (but have to).


I hate you!!!  lol


----------



## Keno18

DarkDrummer said:


> I hate you!!!  lol


So does my wife, only she's not laughing.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Ordered a Tung-Sol 7236 this afternoon. Can't wait (but have to).


You won't regret it, great tube, gets better with burn in, and I mean better.


----------



## diforce

The hum on the left channel with the red base Tung Sol preamp tube didn't disappear on my amp  had to be more than 100 hours by now... anyway
Are the double straight black solid core wires that go into the tube sockets are the heater wires ? (Post #2149)
I was told i should replace them with braided solid core wire this will remove the hum instead of the 220uF capacitors.


----------



## JKDJedi

diforce said:


> The hum on the left channel with the red base Tung Sol preamp tube didn't disappear on my amp  had to be more than 100 hours by now... anyway
> Are the double straight black solid core wires that go into the tube sockets are the heater wires ? (Post #2149)
> I was told i should replace them with braided solid core wire this will remove the hum instead of the 220uF capacitors.


Or get a nice NOS tube. Easiest fix.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 25, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Or get a nice NOS tube. Easiest fix.


NOS tubes generally buzz and, if so, require >24hrs of burn-in.  I have quite a few NOS tubes that fit that description and I'm too impatient to wait two days or so to further age my tubes before I can start listening to the amp with them seated.  Then again, I have to mod my amp again if I want to enjoy my 6C8G's because of the gain introduced by the 220uF caps.



diforce said:


> The hum on the left channel with the red base Tung Sol preamp tube didn't disappear on my amp  had to be more than 100 hours by now... anyway
> Are the double straight black solid core wires that go into the tube sockets are the heater wires ? (Post #2149)
> I was told i should replace them with braided solid core wire this will remove the hum instead of the 220uF capacitors.


Or you can cut the "A/C heater connection to the left channel earth" and create a "virtual zero point" to the chassis earth (Posts #1790 and #1793).


----------



## ecapsretliab

sennfan83261 said:


> Or you can cut the "A/C heater connection to the left channel earth" and create a "virtual zero point" to the chassis earth (Posts #1790 and #1793).


My NOS tubes are still humming after about 60 hours.  I was about to attempt the fitz mod, but I'd rather give this ago instead.  I just can't quite make out the "virtual zero point" wiring.  Is there a more detailed description on how to do that?


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> NOS tubes generally buzz and, if so, require >24hrs of burn-in.  I have quite a few NOS tubes that fit that description and I'm too impatient to wait two days or so to further age my tubes before I can start listening to the amp with them seated.  Then again, I have to mod my amp again if I want to enjoy my 6C8G's because of the gain introduced by the 220uF caps.
> 
> 
> Or you can cut the "A/C heater connection to the left channel earth" and create a "virtual zero point" to the chassis earth (Posts #1790 and #1793).


I've had the opposite with NOS tubes with just one of them with a very low hum ($8 tube) and the rest just steller, maybe I've been lucky? And if I had the knowledge I'd be all over that Mod the same, I can see how it can help low impedance cans sound better.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I swapped out my HD6XX worn pads with brand new Dekoni Sheepskin Pads and immediately noticed a drop in the mid highs that seemed to elevate the bass a bit, liked the bass boost but missed some of the crispiness.. until I remembered I'm a tube roller   I gots a special tube that has screaming good highs!  Enter the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH  I am now one with earth again..  (and I still have the bass!)



Hey JKDJedi...it looks like your ElectroHarmonix  6SN7EH is the new one (reissue) right?  Did this tube require burn in on your DV....was there any initial hum issues with this?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Hey JKDJedi...it looks like your ElectroHarmonix  6SN7EH is the new one (reissue) right?  Did this tube require burn in on your DV....was there any initial hum issues with this?


I honestly don't remember. RCA Grey Glass is a better tube IMO.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I honestly don't remember. RCA Grey Glass is a better tube IMO.



Cool Thanks.  Another tube to put on the bucket list to try...Yeah, I was only asking because i'm 2 for 2 for hum on new reissue tubes.  This thing loves only the stock and any NOS i throw at it which I have had zero hum on any of those.  Lol.  Not that its a bad thing...


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 27, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Cool Thanks.  Another tube to put on the bucket list to try...Yeah, I was only asking because i'm 2 for 2 for hum on new reissue tubes.  This thing loves only the stock and any NOS i throw at it which I have had zero hum on any of those.  Lol.  Not that its a bad thing...


And with all that my NOS tube I just got in has the hum...LMAO... well the positive note on NOS tubes with hum is that you know your popping its cherry! Burn in time for my spanking brand new Westinghouse 1957 D getter 6SN7GTB (left), I'm told it's miles ahead of the 60's halo getter version (right) so really anxious here, (oddly the 60's version had no hum when I got it) So we'll see.. ..


----------



## DarkDrummer

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, I'll give that a try, and have read that Detoxit might be ok to use... thoughts?


Use it....It works Great....but...be sure to use the spray and not the brush-on crap. The crap just will NOT dry.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> You won't regret it, great tube, gets better with burn in, and I mean better.


The 7236 just arrived this morning and already loving it. Nice bass slam more detail in the mids, highs are etched in. Also more gain. Will report more as the tube burns in.


----------



## ggillies (Jun 28, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> The 7236 just arrived this morning and already loving it. Nice bass slam more detail in the mids, highs are etched in. Also more gain. Will report more as the tube burns in.


Yup..  I have stocked up on Tung-Sol 7236s....  I love the way the Tung-Sol 7236 works with various 6SN7s.  I listen mostly to rock, EDM and punk music, so it takes a fairly fast responding tube and one with really good bass to make my music sound right.  The Tung-Sol 7236 paired with the Philips is to my ears, the absolute perfect combination of speed, impactful but tight and deep bass, soundstage and a great midrange and sweet but crisp high end.

The Tung-Sol 7236 pairs incredibly well with

1.   The Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA
2.   The Sylvania 6SN7W
3.   The Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6SN7GT

After a monumental amount of listening, those are my top 3 combinations to use with the Tung_sol 7236.

Cheers, and happy rolling!


----------



## adeadcrab

Enjoying the 6080WB today. Missed that tube sound


----------



## Keno18

Boy, the DarkVoice is fussy about it's 6sn7s. A new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB hums, one vintage TS mouse ears has a noisy right channel, another branded Motorola has a low level hum. Finally found one the DV likes, a vintage TS mouse ears branded as a Raytheon. The ones the DV didn't like are slated for the Schiit Vali 2 which doesn't seem to care but then again doesn't quite come up to the DV.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 30, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Boy, the DarkVoice is fussy about it's 6sn7s. A new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB hums, one vintage TS mouse ears has a noisy right channel, another branded Motorola has a low level hum. Finally found one the DV likes, a vintage TS mouse ears branded as a Raytheon. The ones the DV didn't like are slated for the Schiit Vali 2 which doesn't seem to care but then again doesn't quite come up to the DV.


This from Ripper2860

"The DVs are very highly regarded, but there was a an issue w/ DV336 (including SE's) that exhibited hum due to a design or build flaw. DV336 uses AC (Alternating Current) heater circuits as opposed to DC (Direct Current). With AC, the 2 heater wires going from the transformer to the tube heater pins should be twisted for shielding purposes to prevent hum. Quite a few DV 336SEs did NOT have a twisted pair of wires but instead were straight and side-by-side. This creates a real problem with hum and varies in intensity from tube to tube".

Ripper2860 helped me pick out my last tube (which is phenomenal) had some hum, but with 12 hours of burn in went away COMPLETELY.


----------



## attmci

ggillies said:


> Yup..  I have stocked up on Tung-Sol 7236s....  I love the way the Tung-Sol 7236 works with various 6SN7s.  I listen mostly to rock, EDM and punk music, so it takes a fairly fast responding tube and one with really good bass to make my music sound right.  The Tung-Sol 7236 paired with the Philips is to my ears, the absolute perfect combination of speed, impactful but tight and deep bass, soundstage and a great midrange and sweet but crisp high end.
> 
> The Tung-Sol 7236 pairs incredibly well with
> 
> ...


Have you tried a Syl 7236? Curious about the difference between the two.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293039451056


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 30, 2019)

attmci said:


> Have you tried a Syl 7236? Curious about the difference between the two.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/293039451056


The double getters are extremely intriguing for me, does the 5998 have double getters? and thanks..just bought one...gonna find out for myself


----------



## attmci (Jun 30, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> The double getters are extremely intriguing for me, does the 5998 have double getters? and thanks..just bought one...gonna find out for myself


Yes. My favorite c-top 5998 has a pair of bottom getters.

I don't have Syl 7236. So please don't blame me if they are not good....


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Yes. My favorite c-top 5998 has a pair of bottom getters.
> 
> I don't have Syl 7236. So please don't blame me if they are not good....


LOL.. I won't , but just for the fact of the two getters... I didnt even think about it... BUY NOW!!!     I'll keep you guys posted how they sound.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> This from Ripper2860
> 
> "The DVs are very highly regarded, but there was a an issue w/ DV336 (including SE's) that exhibited hum due to a design or build flaw. DV336 uses AC (Alternating Current) heater circuits as opposed to DC (Direct Current). With AC, the 2 heater wires going from the transformer to the tube heater pins should be twisted for shielding purposes to prevent hum. Quite a few DV 336SEs did NOT have a twisted pair of wires but instead were straight and side-by-side. This creates a real problem with hum and varies in intensity from tube to tube".
> 
> Ripper2860 helped me pick out my last tube (which is phenomenal) had some hum, but with 12 hours of burn in went away COMPLETELY.


Thanks for the explanation. Two things then, 1. I'll put the humming tube back in and give it the appropriate burn in time and 2. When the warranty period is up open the box to check the heater wiring.


----------



## ggillies

attmci said:


> Have you tried a Syl 7236? Curious about the difference between the two.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/293039451056


I have not tried that particular tube.  I'd be interested to find out if anyone here has tried both the Tung-Sol and the Sylvania 7236.  Any opinions???


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> I have not tried that particular tube.  I'd be interested to find out if anyone here has tried both the Tung-Sol and the Sylvania 7236.  Any opinions???


I might be out of the country by the time the Sylvania gets here, super anxious for this one. I'll keep ya guys posted if it gets here before I leave.


----------



## JKDJedi

Co u ld we or should we be able to connect a CD Player, Turntable directly to the Darkvoice, just curious.


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Co u ld we or should we be able to connect a CD Player, Turntable directly to the Darkvoice, just curious.


I don't see why not.  They are sources like your standalone DAC.  Your CD player has a DAC.  Your turntable outputs should be fine too (see below).  (NB: Not my rig)


----------



## Amish

JKDJedi said:


> Co u ld we or should we be able to connect a CD Player, Turntable directly to the Darkvoice, just curious.



You betcha.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Co u ld we or should we be able to connect a CD Player, Turntable directly to the Darkvoice, just curious.


A turntable with a magnetic cartridge would require a phono preamp if the turntable doesn't have one built-in.


----------



## Keno18

Picked up a backup Tung-Sol 7236 tonight. One is not enough.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 4, 2019)

Listening to what appears to be a Sylvania 6SN7GT (beige-lettering on its base, weird) with either a Tung-Sol 7236 (white-lettering) or a RCA 6AS7G (silver-lettering, 4-09 date code) as the power tube.  Mid-size bottle having 939 and J8A as its date codes, so it appears to be from 1949 (39th week).  Looking at its getter, one could think that it is a chrome-dome, but that appellation is usually reserved for early '50s 6SN7GT's.  Don't care, as I took a flyer on this untested tube and got it for cheap.  As for its sound, this tube has a pretty impressive soundstage and is slightly crisper sounding than the smoother-sounding '54 Sylvania 6SN7GTA I have.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 4, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Listening to what appears to be a Sylvania 6SN7GT (beige-lettering on its base, weird) with either a Tung-Sol 7236 (white-lettering) or a RCA 6AS7G (silver-lettering, 4-09 date code) as the power tube.  Mid-size bottle having 939 and J8A as its date codes, so it appears to be from 1949 (39th week).  Looking at its getter, one could think that it is a chrome-dome, but that appellation is usually reserved for early '50s 6SN7GT's.  Don't care, as I took a flyer on this untested tube and got it for cheap.  As for its sound, this tube has a pretty impressive soundstage and is slightly crisper sounding than the smoother-sounding '54 Sylvania 6SN7GTA I have.


That could be 1959 (9 is underscored in the pic) 39th week, and looks to be a nice find. Rare to see the chrome come down that far at least for me. and I'm seeing other Sylvania codes dated 939 as 1949... wow you might have an early sample of the "Chrome Dome"..which yeah started in the early 50's (catching up on some reading )   Does this tube fully light up top to bottom?
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 10, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> That could be 1959 (9 is underscored in the pic) 39th week, and looks to be a nice find. Rare to see the chrome come down that far at least for me. and I'm seeing other Sylvania codes dated 939 as 1949... wow you might have an early sample of the "Chrome Dome"..which yeah started in the early 50's (catching up on some reading )   Does this tube fully light up top to bottom?
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


The problem with the 1959 theory is that apparently Sylvania phased out 6SN7GT's by 1953 or 1954 (I initially thought it was '59 too until I did some digging):

http://vintagetubeservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Octal_Tubes_March_2018.pdf
https://www.tubeworld.com/6sn7.htm#sylgt

As for their lighting, the top is completely obscured by the getter and only the lit up bottom portions of the two heater filaments are visible.  So far, these T-plate 6SN7GT's are very clear sounding with really good bass extension.  Probably the best $10 I've spent on a tube so far.  I should compare these to a few Sylvania VT-231's I have.


----------



## Keno18

Its been two weeks since I've been running the DV. Everything's burned in and I'm really happy with the sound. The DV truly beats the Vali 2 even with both running a 6sn7gt mouse ears. Instrument separation is clearly audible with complex high frequency passages that the Vali just presents as a fog of conjested sound. Overall dynamics have an effortless quality where the Vali feels like it runs out of steam. Glad I made the purchase.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> And with all that my NOS tube I just got in has the hum...LMAO... well the positive note on NOS tubes with hum is that you know your popping its cherry! Burn in time for my spanking brand new Westinghouse 1957 D getter 6SN7GTB (left), I'm told it's miles ahead of the 60's halo getter version (right) so really anxious here, (oddly the 60's version had no hum when I got it) So we'll see.. ..



You were right about the RCA Gray Glass.  I'm gonna ride your streak and try a Westinghouse NOS.  Hope its a good bank for the buck as I've heard.


----------



## Keno18

To anyone who has done the Fitz mod: Have you noticed any changes to the sound quality of the DV besides the hum being gone? Brighter, darker, more pronounced frequency over another? I've read from one source that the mod changes the sound. I'm thinking of making the change myself and want to know what to expect. Thanks in advance.


----------



## sennfan83261

Keno18 said:


> To anyone who has done the Fitz mod: Have you noticed any changes to the sound quality of the DV besides the hum being gone? Brighter, darker, more pronounced frequency over another? I've read from one source that the mod changes the sound. I'm thinking of making the change myself and want to know what to expect. Thanks in advance.


Outside of volume gain, I can't tell whether the sound changed on mine using 220uF caps.  People here mentioned that using caps having a capacitance less than 220uF (typically those using 100uF caps) will experience bass roll-off.  I used two 220uF Nicohicon FG caps (you can use KZ too).  The problem with the volume gain is that it lowers the listenable volume range.  For me, the bottom of the volume range is pretty close to the threshold where channel imbalance kicks in (sound comes out of one side more than the other, tested on mono tracks to confirm).  A quick fix is use my mediaplayer's EQ (Musicbee) to drop the pre-amp gain -10dB together with lowering the DAC output volume.  Also, IMO, the higher gain from the Fitz Mod works against the 6C8G tubes that I have due to their 40 AF compared to 6SN7's 20 AF (AF = amplification factor).  Luckily, the Fitz Mod is easily reversible.


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> Outside of volume gain, I can't tell whether the sound changed on mine using 220uF caps.  People here mentioned that using caps having a capacitance less than 220uF (typically those using 100uF caps) will experience bass roll-off.  I used two 220uF Nicohicon FG caps (you can use KZ too).  The problem with the volume gain is that it lowers the listenable volume range.  For me, the bottom of the volume range is pretty close to the threshold where channel imbalance kicks in (sound comes out of one side more than the other, tested on mono tracks to confirm).  A quick fix is use my mediaplayer's EQ (Musicbee) to drop the pre-amp gain -10dB together with lowering the DAC output volume.  Also, IMO, the higher gain from the Fitz Mod works against the 6C8G tubes that I have due to their 40 AF compared to 6SN7's 20 AF (AF = amplification factor).  Luckily, the Fitz Mod is easily reversible.


Thanks for the detailed response, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. So 220uf at 25v. I'll order them next week.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 12, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> And with all that my NOS tube I just got in has the hum...LMAO... well the positive note on NOS tubes with hum is that you know your popping its cherry! Burn in time for my spanking brand new Westinghouse 1957 D getter 6SN7GTB (left), I'm told it's miles ahead of the 60's halo getter version (right) so really anxious here, (oddly the 60's version had no hum when I got it) So we'll see.. ..


How did the '57 D-getter work out for you?  I recently received a '50s Westinghouse 6SN7GT Reliatron that I was looking forward to trying out, but I noticed one of the heater filaments being more dimly lit than the other one and sure enough one channel was out ($7 and supposedly tested well).  I also had bad luck with a NOS NIB 1942 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT that I found for $8 (the cheapest one I bought before was ~$20).  As for the 1960's Westinghouse 6SN7GTBs that I bought for pretty cheap, they have quite a massive soundstage like you mentioned earlier.  However, they are a little dry sounding when paired with a '50s RCA 6AS7 black plates.  I remember feeling that they sounded better paired with the Tung-Sol 7236, but it has been a few weeks since I last listened to that pairing.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> How did the '57 D-getter work out for you?  I recently received a '50s Westinghouse 6SN7GT Reliatron that I was looking forward to trying out, but I noticed one of the heater filaments being more dimly lit than the other one and sure enough one channel was out ($7 and supposedly tested well).  I also had bad luck with a NOS NIB 1942 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT that I found for $8 (the cheapest one I bought before was ~$20).  As for the 1960's Westinghouse 6SN7GTBs that I bought for pretty cheap, they have quite a massive soundstage like you mentioned earlier.  However, they are a little dry sounding when paired with a '50s RCA 6AS7 black plates.  I remember feeling that they sounded better paired with the Tung-Sol 7236, but it has been a few weeks since I last listened to that pairing.


Yes the 60's Westinghouse scale as the power tube does, like any preamp tube really. But more so with the Westinghouse. The 57 D getter worked out great, overall tone is outstanding. Because of the narrow inherited soundstage of the HD6XX I'm liking the 60s Westinghouse more, by a slim margine. I have in my mail box an early 1953 Sylvania Chrome Dome. And a Sylvania 7236 that I'm anxious to check out when I get back from my vacation.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> How did the '57 D-getter work out for you?  I recently received a '50s Westinghouse 6SN7GT Reliatron that I was looking forward to trying out, but I noticed one of the heater filaments being more dimly lit than the other one and sure enough one channel was out ($7 and supposedly tested well).  I also had bad luck with a NOS NIB 1942 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT that I found for $8 (the cheapest one I bought before was ~$20).  As for the 1960's Westinghouse 6SN7GTBs that I bought for pretty cheap, they have quite a massive soundstage like you mentioned earlier.  However, they are a little dry sounding when paired with a '50s RCA 6AS7 black plates.  I remember feeling that they sounded better paired with the Tung-Sol 7236, but it has been a few weeks since I last listened to that pairing.



I also just got a Westinghouse 6SN7GT Reliatron, and it really does open up the sound stage, it is a great sounding tube...except for that damned hum.  Also my first NOS with the humming issue.  Aside from that, i'm also liking this tube very much.  Friend of mine also gave me a Shu Guang Black Treasure CV-181z which also sounds (wide sound stage, increased clarity) really really good except for the hum again.  It's a drag because waiting like 3-4 days to enjoy the sound is really sucks.  

BTW Sennfan83261 where are you getting such cheap tubes for less than 10?  Those are some crazy cheap prices.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 15, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> I also just got a Westinghouse 6SN7GT Reliatron, and it really does open up the sound stage, it is a great sounding tube...except for that damned hum.  Also my first NOS with the humming issue.  Aside from that, i'm also liking this tube very much.  Friend of mine also gave me a Shu Guang Black Treasure CV-181z which also sounds (wide sound stage, increased clarity) really really good except for the hum again.  It's a drag because waiting like 3-4 days to enjoy the sound is really sucks.
> 
> BTW Sennfan83261 where are you getting such cheap tubes for less than 10?  Those are some crazy cheap prices.


I shop where everybody else shops here (ebay); I found others like etsy and reverb to be more expensive typically.  As for ebay, it takes patience and discipline to find such deals.  I found the ones I quoted after already having a supply of 6SN7's that I was happy with, at this point all I am looking for are deals (I set a hard limit of $30 per tube, except for the 7236 at ~$35).  Also, I tried to target a few estate sales in my area (deceased were audio engineers, worked in the music industry, etc) only to find the house to be largely picked over by the time Saturday arrives (they usually start on Friday and I'm not going to skip a day of work for them).


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 15, 2019)

And I'm back (from vacation)!! Just got up from my power nap and raced to the mail box, the Sylvania 7236 is the shortest power tube I own now (has some weight to it, for its size, Pictured next to the Tung Sol 7236) At first glance it's plates are straight and parallel to each other vs the boxed shape of the Tung Sol, also as mentioned above the upper double halos.. sound impressions will come within 48 hours.. might do an immediate impression if I can hear anything that strikes me quickly. My C Wings 6H13C tube also has a double halo design (lower) so I'll compare that tube as well with the three, I'll be using the newly acquired Chrome Dome Sylvania, both Westinghouse tubes (50's & 60's) with a bonus Shu Guang Black Beauty CV181-Z as Preamp... I miss my Darkvoice!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 16, 2019)

I did a write up but changed my mind on posting... I need to burn in the Sylvania real good like I did the Tung Sol for a fair comparison..initial impressions  the Tung Sol with most tubes has the better overall pairing, yet with that one tube (Black Treasure )the Sylvania was wow... a huge surprise.  I have a feeling with the burn in we might have a little powerhouse here


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 16, 2019)

ecapsretliab said:


> My NOS tubes are still humming after about 60 hours.  I was about to attempt the fitz mod, but I'd rather give this ago instead.  I just can't quite make out the "virtual zero point" wiring.  Is there a more detailed description on how to do that?


Sorry for the late reply, I asked this question in Massdrop, and someone chimed in:


> Sorry, I had something really well written, and my phone decided to die on me, so atm, typing from my computer. To keep it brief, cutting the ground at the point he did was done to move the ground closer to where the other grounding points for the rest of the circuit tends to meet at (Where the Ceramic Caps are). Also those 4 caps near the tubes don't affects anything at all when it comes to the actual audio signal, those caps are there to regulate voltage and charge to the anode, which does affect the audio signal, just not directly like the red coupling caps on the PCB. The effect of putting those resistors and caps where the PCB connecting the transformer to the heater rails before they reach any of the tubes is that they're probably acting as dropping resistors, basically lowering voltage using resistors, and using the capacitors to possibly control the charge that goes into ground. All he did in cutting the ground there was to ground both rails at the same time instead of just one of them. The reason he may have lost that hum was that he reduced the voltage.
> 
> Also since you mentioned channel imbalance with the caps, those caps connect to the cathode pins on the preamp, and hold a charge, in a way, this is one method to bias a cathode, at least from what I understand, The capacitor's ability to store charges affects the biasing of the left and right triode cathodes, which that biased potential difference, in respect to the anode, may affect how the signal is receiving gain as well as how much each side is gaining. Basically, the capacitor's aren't correctly matched and may be working very slightly differently, and causing that imbalance. The caps I use are Elna Silmic II, 25V, 220uF, and they seem to be well balanced, so maybe try those?
> 
> Also, just a quick edit, but srsly, the Darkvoice's design is so weird, it has 200V 1000uF caps that receives the Bridge Rectifier's DC right? Then what do those caps do? They send that DC to smaller 350V (in my amp's case) 220uF caps that directly feed the anode. I feel like those 1000uF caps can be thrown out, and just replaced with 3 220uf caps and rebuild the circuit from there. The reason I think they might have done it with so many caps was to reduce ESR by using more capacitors, which I guess makes sense, but idk if it's really necessary in this circuit particularly, since it just adds more stuff to the circuit. Idk, I'd like some thoughts on this. I mean I left my design as is, but still tempted to try that out, since I'm almost 100% sure it's still function without blowing anything up.



https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2471567

Reference post (also read the two followup posts):
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-120#post-14628672


----------



## ecapsretliab

sennfan83261 said:


> Sorry for the late reply, I asked this question in Massdrop, and someone chimed in:


Wow thank you, you're a saint.  I'll read through that thoroughly, should be a great help.  Cheers!


----------



## sennfan83261

ecapsretliab said:


> Wow thank you, you're a saint.  I'll read through that thoroughly, should be a great help.  Cheers!


Thanks.  Also, check out the massdrop link, as the author added a few additional observations since their reply post.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> I shop where everybody else shops here (ebay); I found others like etsy and reverb to be more expensive typically.  As for ebay, it takes patience and discipline to find such deals.  I found the ones I quoted after already having a supply of 6SN7's that I was happy with, at this point all I am looking for are deals (I set a hard limit of $30 per tube, except for the 7236 at ~$35).  Also, I tried to target a few estate sales in my area (deceased were audio engineers, worked in the music industry, etc) only to find the house to be largely picked over by the time Saturday arrives (they usually start on Friday and I'm not going to skip a day of work for them).



I see.  I'm just unlucky with my timing on ebay and rarely see such finds on tubes, except for now of course where there are some offering like a random grab of 6SN7s for under 10...a surprise if you will.  Could be interesting though to find a diamond in the rough. 

I'm kicking myself now though that you mention estate sales and such.  A few years ago, I had a neighbor down the street who had to downsize his house, and I was helping him box things up for the move, but he was donating alot of his things, and I now remember coming across in his garage, large boxes of tubes, as he was a television and antique radio repair guy.  I wasn't into this hobby at the time, but now always wonder what he might have had.  It was such a considerable amount too.  My neighbor was very elderly and to him, it was just yesteryear's junk probably.  Oh well.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I see.  I'm just unlucky with my timing on ebay and rarely see such finds on tubes, except for now of course where there are some offering like a random grab of 6SN7s for under 10...a surprise if you will.  Could be interesting though to find a diamond in the rough.
> 
> I'm kicking myself now though that you mention estate sales and such.  A few years ago, I had a neighbor down the street who had to downsize his house, and I was helping him box things up for the move, but he was donating alot of his things, and I now remember coming across in his garage, large boxes of tubes, as he was a television and antique radio repair guy.  I wasn't into this hobby at the time, but now always wonder what he might have had.  It was such a considerable amount too.  My neighbor was very elderly and to him, it was just yesteryear's junk probably.  Oh well.


You'll find a couple, don't kick yourself. They're not gonna run out anytime soon.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> You'll find a couple, don't kick yourself. They're not gonna run out anytime soon.



Oh no doubt.  I'm actually at a good place, in part thanks to you.  The Westinghouse and RCA Gray Glass are kind of where I want to be right now.  Like  Sennfan83261, I think now it would just have to be a good deal at this point.  But it is fun to experiment with the sounds.  The Darkvoice has exceeded my expectations for sure in sound and hobby.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 16, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Oh no doubt.  I'm actually at a good place, in part thanks to you.  The Westinghouse and RCA Gray Glass are kind of where I want to be right now.  Like  Sennfan83261, I think now it would just have to be a good deal at this point.  But it is fun to experiment with the sounds.  The Darkvoice has exceeded my expectations for sure in sound and hobby.


The latter is an excellent choice, as is the former with the right pairing.  As for those grab-bag type sales on ebay, I haven't personally bought any from there myself (too random for me), but I did notice a few where you pick which remaining tube(s) you want to buy. 

More often than not, the too-good-to-be-true deals are just that.  For example, my purchase of a busted, purportedly NOS and NIB, untested 1942 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT from my earlier post.  On the other hand, I struck some gold (e.g. 1949 Sylvania 6SN7GT chrome dome precursor).  In my experience, only two tubes out of the 30 or so I bought from ebay were unusable (1 was tested but arrived with a busted heater filament [returned] and the above RCA sounded like it was attacking my HD6XX).  Anyways, so long as your tubes are music to your ears (when seated), be happy with what you have but always be on the lookout for some good deals


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> The latter is an excellent choice, as is the former with the right pairing.  As for those grab-bag type sales on ebay, I haven't personally bought any from there myself (too random for me), but I did notice a few where you pick which remaining tube(s) you want to buy.
> 
> More often than not, the too-good-to-be-true deals are just that.  For example, my purchase of a busted, purportedly NOS and NIB, untested 1942 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT from my earlier post.  On the other hand, I struck some gold (e.g. 1949 Sylvania 6SN7GT chrome dome precursor).  In my experience, only two tubes out of the 30 or so I bought from ebay were unusable (1 was tested but arrived with a busted heater filament [returned] and the above RCA sounded like it was attacking my HD6XX).  Anyways, so long as your tubes are music to your ears (when seated), be happy with what you have but always be on the lookout for some good deals


BASS On these CHrome Dome Are BallZ SicK.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> BASS On these CHrome Dome Are BallZ SicK.



Well said.  Perfectly stated.


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody else here have a solid state amp collecting dust since they got the Darkvoice?


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody else here have a solid state amp collecting dust since they got the Darkvoice?


Yeah, a Magni 3. You?


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Yeah, a Magni 3. You?


I sold a NFB 11 a few months back just to buy more tubes..  now just the iFi here..  and yeah, just use it maybe once a month or so


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> I sold a NFB 11 a few months back just to buy more tubes..  now just the iFi here..  and yeah, just use it maybe once a month or so


To be honest I try to listen to my Vali 2 (with a 6sn7) or a vintage Proton 930 receiver, I just want to go back to the DV.  I just use the dac portion of the ifi nano bl to feed the DV. Frankly, I am happy with the tubes I have. The only other amp I'll listen to for any amount of time is a modified Bravo V2 with an rca 12au7 clear top because the highs remind me of the DV.


----------



## Keno18

@JKDJedi You were right I finally let my humming 6sn7 burn in for about 7 hours and no more hum. So now there's this tube and three more spares that are hum free. I'm set until I get that urge to roll again .


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 20, 2019)

I  really liked the Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome tube, grabbed/won a new pair just now Gotta love eBay! These are newer (NOS) or tested better than the one I have now so interested to see how these sound.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> I  really liked the Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome tube, grabbed a new pair just now Gotta love eBay! These are newer (NOS) or tested better than the one I have now so interested to see how these sound.


So am I.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 20, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> So am I.


you can find them super cheap, dont pay full price. saw one listed for $65, and the ones I won were a fraction of that price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6...hrome-Dome-1948-Tested-GREAT-NOS/192984547291

*Sylvania 6SN7GT version #1*
_Also JAN-CHS-6SN7GT
Identical to VT-231s except:
- Green printing seen on black base; white labels are much rarer.
- Made in the 1950s.
- Flat plate versions exist across all year of make (very rare)._
Base: black, green labels, triangular Sylvania logo with ‘lightning bolt’ through logo.
Glass: clear
Plates: black, T-plate, (or rarely, flat black plates) with 2 holes per plate
Getter: bottom, foil, flashing can extend up to 1/3 of way up tube
Top mica: rectangular, (flat plate versions have round top and bottom micas)
*Other significant features: when seen, date codes are vertically arranged (from top to bottom) ‘YWW’ with Y underlined. Y = last digit of year, WW = week number of year.

EDITED: I just remembered  Sennfann s post about the dates and had to edit my thoughts on the dates. It appears they started in the 40's and ended mid 50's, speaking of the 6SN7GT*


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> you can find them super cheap, dont pay full price. saw one listed for $65, and the ones I won were a fraction of that price.


Super cheap is good. Will keep my eye out.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 20, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Super cheap is good. Will keep my eye out.


FYI the only "real" Chrome Dome is from 1950 ---> https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SYL-6SN7GTA However, Sennfan seems to have a striking rare find in a 1949 (Late Sept - Early October) tube that looks A LOT like the Chrome Dome, where the tube is almost entirely covered with the silver flash. I'm a little jelly to be honest


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jul 22, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> you can find them super cheap, dont pay full price. saw one listed for $65, and the ones I won were a fraction of that price.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6...hrome-Dome-1948-Tested-GREAT-NOS/192984547291
> 
> *Sylvania 6SN7GT version #1*
> ...


Lol, that ebay'er is selling two 6SN7GTBs at that inflated price (angled plates shown and the glass-top indicators state "GTB"), so many con-artists on ebay.  Also, thanks for bringing up that 6SN7GT description.  Save for the color of the printing, and obviously the year ("1949"), everything else matches.  I prefer the '49 Sylvania 6SN7GT to the VT-231's I have (2), as the '49 6SN7GT sounds a bit cleaner without losing that trademark Sylvania warmth and has more bass than the VT-231's**.



JKDJedi said:


> https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SYL-6SN7GTA


Interesting that the seller grouped the 6SN7GTA as a "chrome dome."  Also, how could the the listed 6SN7GTA and 6SN7GT be a matched pair (both have different peak powers)?  Also, I like to think that there is a reason why the seller didn't post a photo showing the date code on their respective bases.  To me, this ad has a few red flags notwithstanding its exorbitant price.

EDIT: **One of the VT-231's I tried was a bit grainy, which may be due to it being a tired, old tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Lol, that ebay'er is selling two 6SN7GTBs at that inflated price (angled plates shown and the glass-top indicators state "GTB"), so many con-artists on ebay.  Also, thanks for bringing up that 6SN7GT description.  Save for the color of the printing, and obviously the year ("1949"), everything else matches.  I prefer the '49 Sylvania 6SN7GT to the VT-231's I have (2), as the '49 6SN7GT sounds a bit cleaner without losing that trademark Sylvania warmth and has more bass than the VT-231's.
> 
> Interesting that the seller grouped the 6SN7GTA as a "chrome dome."  Also, how could the the listed 6SN7GTA and 6SN7GT be a matched pair (both have different peak powers)?  Also, I like to think that there is a reason why the seller didn't post a photo showing the date code on their respective bases.  To me, this ad has a few red flags notwithstanding its exorbitant price.


Good catch! yeah, good to know some history on these tubes. I downloaded that documentation you posted earlier, thanks for the link. So I might have some (hopefully genuine "Bad Boys") coming in but ..yes but, as you know Ebay sellers do, this listing was for a pair, and on purchase the item listing said 1... are u kidding me!? lol, so if it's a pair, a working pair, I got a steal, if it's just one then yeah, not so much a steal. so we'll see!


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## JKDJedi (Jul 22, 2019)

Tidal Playlist: https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/fdc5e5db-34b7-43ab-9428-40da1c036f2c

Preamp Tubes:  Shu Guang CV181-Z  /  Sylvania 6SN7GT  /  GE 6SN7GTA


Headphone: Sennheiser HD6XX (Dekoni Sheepskin Pads w/ Mogami Cable)


Shu Guang CV181-Z

Wow...right away you can hear that the Sylvania 7236 has a wider sound, not as impactful as the Tung Sol in the thump (bass) department but still fun to listen too. Gonna give the initial listen to the Sylvania here. Although vocals seem more controlled on the Tung-Sol 7236 when it gets busy. Man this sounds good (with the Sylvania 7236) turned up.. So...I'm gonna give the Tung Sol another spin..because I'm surprised here honestly. (note...Darkvoice gets really hot with these 7236 tubes, or am I suppose to wait 10minutes ) Burned my finger!  So yes the Tung Sol bass has nice roll off and presence here, and vocals slightly tighter as mentioned, but I don't want to turn it up like I do with the Sylvania. Tie? (I hate ties) This round goes to the Sylvania 7236, it's balanced and non fatiguing sound wins it when paired with the Shu Guang CV181-Z

Up Next?

Sylvania 6SN7GT  (1953)

  (I often wonder when they built these tubes, did they ever think what would be played on them decades later?) and yes...Dat Bass on the Sylvania GT tubes...to die for.. grab a pair when you can! Silky smooth sound here with the Tung Sol, (I'm a Sylvania GT fan boy now) Just want to end the comparison here, TUng Sol Wins! no wait, let me warm up the Sylvania for a listen ;D So the weird thing about the Sylvania 7236 here, is it seems mids are pushed away center to the outside, and because of that I want to turn it up, I'm told that a 7236 is a 7236, that they all have the same amplification (4.5?) vs 2 of the 6080 tubes, whatever that means. and because the mids are more forward on the Tung-Sol to my ears they sound louder. Right now I honestly don't know which I enjoy more. For the Sennheiser a wide tube just adds to the overall listening experience. And the Slyvania 7236 is just that, a slightly brighter and wider tube. tough one here guys, I have to give it to the Tung Sol though, it's lushness edges out the Sylvania when paired with the Slyvania 6SN7GT.

Up Next?

General Electric 6SN7GTA Side Getter (1954)

   Man I forgot how clean these GE side getters sound. Probably the most neutral tube I have, with just a slight treble bump, (This playing off the Sylvania 7236). The vocals appear a bit dry and when it get's busy the mids struggle a bit. I'm almost sure the Tung Sol will best this comparison, warming up, and..
yes, vocals are more appetizing on the Tun Sol. there is a slight reduction with the treble. Debating with myself on sounstage, Are the Sylvania's wider, or do they just sound wide because of the reduced mid range? Have to add, these GE compared to the Sylvania 6SN7GT... are sterile. Get A Sylvania, you might just never buy another preamp. That good.


I was really rooting for the Slyvania 7236, and by itself is a good tube, (especially with the Black Treasure preamp tube) However, when compared to the Tung-Sol 7236, (and we all new it, the Tung Sol has it's reputation already), it just sounds more like a tube. warm, lush, and inviting. I had fun writing this up, till the next one!


----------



## JKDJedi

Well this sucks major Monkey Balls.... Knew it was too good to be true...


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 24, 2019)

Just got these in (two Sylvania 6SN7GT) and noticed the 1948 getter is almost all the way down to the base (center) the other two are 1953. I am really surprised on the Sylvania sound, right when I thought the Westinghouse were pound for pound the best these drop into my lap. Super rich in sound and only pennies compared to the rich man's tube collection. Although I wouldn't mind having a few of those.  (gonna a and b these with the Westinghouse this weekend)


----------



## Slade01

Anyone have any experience with a CBS  6SN7GTB?  Just got it and have to burn it in, so I haven't had a chance to really put it through its paces yet.  But haven't really been able to find too much about it, unless its just a more ordinary tube?  They look like RCA tubes, so I am assuming they have a similar sound profile?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Anyone have any experience with a CBS  6SN7GTB?  Just got it and have to burn it in, so I haven't had a chance to really put it through its paces yet.  But haven't really been able to find too much about it, unless its just a more ordinary tube?  They look like RCA tubes, so I am assuming they have a similar sound profile?


Nice looking tube! Copy and pasted from 6sn7 thread...

Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities. 
with faster tube heat-up (11 seconds only).


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Nice looking tube! Copy and pasted from 6sn7 thread...
> 
> Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities.
> with faster tube heat-up (11 seconds only).



Good for TVs but lets hope it sounds good musically!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Good for TVs but lets hope it sounds good musically!


It should, might have to mix n match with power tube to find a good balance. Keep us posted.


----------



## wwmhf

Slade01 said:


> Anyone have any experience with a CBS  6SN7GTB?  Just got it and have to burn it in, so I haven't had a chance to really put it through its paces yet.  But haven't really been able to find too much about it, unless its just a more ordinary tube?  They look like RCA tubes, so I am assuming they have a similar sound profile?



I have a few tubes like the one in your post, and they sound good in my 336SE


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## JKDJedi (Jul 27, 2019)

deleted


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## JKDJedi (Jul 29, 2019)

*Only $25, How Do they Compare?  Westinghouse-Sylvania-Raytheon 6SN7GT

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/1c958c57-5d52-4735-b203-51c8c32f30b1
 *
For this comparison I decided to use my most/more neutral power tube. (Mullard 6080) Tracks played, Radiohead recordings, just phenomenal work here, especially for headphones. Sticking with my better Darkvoice headphones, you guessed it , the Sennheiser HD6XX.  (I decided later to add the Tung-Sol 7236 in this mix) 

First up,

Raytheon 6SN7GT (1951)


I had given up on this tube as one of my first NOS purchases, unimpressed I bubble wrapped for later use, even tried to sell it at one point. Off memory, it could have been that it just doesn't mesh well with 6AS7G tubes. Thats all I had at the time, anyways, I'm glad I unearthed this baby. Sounds so F5ck3n special. (Creep playing in the background)  Is that really Thom Yorke? Very warm sounding, bass not exaggerated, perfect for Sade fans. Highs are nice,  vocals smooth. And the only nick pick, on busy sections, gets slightly mangled. (Distorted) Lots of width here, lot to do with the recordings. And the Raytheon represents well here.

Up Next!

Sylvania 6SN7GT (1953)

   So the Sylvania never really grabbed my attention, even with all the rebranded tubes out there, made by Sylvania.  It was only recent that a member here sparked my interest, (thanks sennfan83261), I grabbed a few. What immediately grabs you is the lush bass these tubes have. You read about it but will never understand it till you listen to one. It's rumored the bass matches the legendary "Bad Boy", (JAN-CHS 6SN7GT 3 hole 1952 Bottom Getter), I may never know. So as much as I harped on the Raytheon, this tube comes out with a darker background. And bass is special here. The only nit pick again is when it gets busy, same as the Raytheon. Treble is sparkling clean.  Because of the darker background vocals sound almost 2 d, 3 d? Width comparable to the Raytheon. Note: One could say the bass here is boomy and compared to the Raytheon, on some tracks yes.

Up Next!

Westinghouse 6SN7GT  Reliatron (1957)


  The Westinghouse is said to be " Special" , this from members here on Headfi.org. The tube to get is from the 50's. Seems to be the pattern here, that if you want a lush sounding tube, it's gonna come from the 50's, (late 40's) . One member, (ripper2860) Headphoneus Supremous even, suggested that the  "The 50's D getter 'Reliatron is markedly better and a gem. Honest. Many (myself included) like it better than the Kenrad VT-231 and that's saying a lot!!"  (in personal correspondence)  Lets take a listen.  Like the prior two (Raytheon, Sylvania) you get the warm tube sound. You know with that build up I just wrote, and listening to this tube, I'm struggling to find anything that sticks out better than the prior two tubes!! o.O
There it is... if it has one thing over the two is that it has great control on busy sections of these tracks. Not as warm, or wide, as the Raytheon, not dark or inviting as the Sylvania, where does this Westinghouse fit?
I almost want to try the Tung Sol 7236 with this tube to find out whats going on, maybe i should but this would alter the Comparison, no?  Ahh what the heck.. lets give it a spin. So I shouldn't be surprised, right away the Westinghouse is a different tube mated with the Tung Sol 7236, for the better. Bass, mids, treble soundstage gets an immediate upgrade!  A couple of notches over the Raytheon and the Sylvania! (All rolled on the Tung-Sol 7236)

  All these tubes here have their strengths and weakness, and would be a nice little collection to have. Feel like some hip hop, slap in the Sylvania. Want to lay low and chill with some jazz or Sade, the Raytheon. Indie music, can't beat the Tungsol Westinghouse mix.  All winners in my book.


But WAIT!! Theres More!!

Bonus Driver

We have here a Sylvania made Driver. (sold to me as a pair, the other a Motorola w/ same build)

Admiral 6SN7GT Staggered/Ladder Plates (1952)


  What I really like about these Sylvania made tubes, especially this one (the ADMIRAL) is the build. 1952. the same year the Bad Boy was made.. THE BAD BOY. and this tube has some similarities. (one can day dream, right?)  I'm talking build here, we have the 3 holes, no 5 holes! if you look closely (on one side of the plates) the bottom getter flares up past the base, and we also have some copper wiring underneath. And made by Sylvania. Ok I know it's not a Bad Boy... And for $11.   ok, out of my system, lets get to the sound. This tube has a very rich sound, rolling with the 6080 right now. And bass not as bold as the "Chrome Dome" like tube up top, but it's there. Nice wide soundstage, almost as wide as my 1960 6SN7GTB Westinghouse if not the same.  (That one also under $25,not reviewed here) HAve to say for $11 this is a STEAL. gonna roll the 7236 now. Weird that I'm not hearing any immediate change, (getting jaded again) I will say this, some really , and i mean really,good vocals with this tube. Now I'm disturbed that this $11 tube sounds this good. It has nice width, bass just right, vocals surreal for real, percussions can be felt,. Am I just biased on this thing?  With the Bad Boy fantasy  If you can find this anywhere on Ebay or garage sale.... GRAB IT!!! Another hidden GEM.


----------



## JKDJedi

Thanks for the read guys, I added a bonus tube that just came in this evening. See ya's next weekend!   ^


----------



## Robert Padgett

JKDJedi said:


> *Only $25, How Do they Compare?  Westinghouse-Sylvania-Raytheon 6SN7GT
> 
> https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/1c958c57-5d52-4735-b203-51c8c32f30b1
> *
> ...



 I have had good fortune to find "Three for $10-- Test Good 6SN7" tubes with a similar diversity as yours


----------



## Slade01

Which tubes would you guys recommend that emphasize the mids/vocals the best?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 29, 2019)

Error


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Error



Hey JKDJedi, I read your post (2227) and it is a great write up.  I think if I understand correctly, the vocals are better with the Raytheon and the Westinghouse.  I don't own any Raytheon tubes, and I was interested in them, so it seems like a good direction to go into.  I'm trying to find that sound that does emphasize mids and vocals better.  It seems that some of the VT-231s also do this based on comments in the 6SN7 Reference Forum.  Thanks again for sharing - much appreciated.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 29, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Hey JKDJedi, I read your post (2227) and it is a great write up.  I think if I understand correctly, the vocals are better with the Raytheon and the Westinghouse.  I don't own any Raytheon tubes, and I was interested in them, so it seems like a good direction to go into.  I'm trying to find that sound that does emphasize mids and vocals better.  It seems that some of the VT-231s also do this based on comments in the 6SN7 Reference Forum.  Thanks again for sharing - much appreciated.


----------



## sennfan83261

I only tried my Raytheon 6SN7GT for a few minutes, so take my comments about it with a grain of salt.  What I immediately noticed was how this tube emphasized the vocal range, i.e. vocal-centric, and was a bit dry-sounding (almost clinical) compared to the more lush Sylvania's and '40s RCA gray-glass.  Unfortunately, I also noticed how the soundstage on the Raytheon wasn't as wide as the Sylvania's and RCA's.  Still, the Raytheons are a decent choice if you are looking for vocal-centric tubes.  For myself, I tend to reach for the more lush sounding Sylvania and RCA gray-glass tubes, as clinical-sounding tubes tend to approach the sound achieved by decent solidstate amps, and I have a decent SS amp for that kind of sound,


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> I only tried my Raytheon 6SN7GT for a few minutes, so take my comments about it with a grain of salt.  What I immediately noticed was how this tube emphasized the vocal range, i.e. vocal-centric, and was a bit dry-sounding (almost clinical) compared to the more lush Sylvania's and '40s RCA gray-glass.  Unfortunately, I also noticed how the soundstage on the Raytheon wasn't as wide as the Sylvania's and RCA's.  Still, the Raytheons are a decent choice if you are looking for vocal-centric tubes.  For myself, I tend to reach for the more lush sounding Sylvania and RCA gray-glass tubes, as clinical-sounding tubes tend to approach the sound achieved by decent solidstate amps, and I have a decent SS amp for that kind of sound,


I felt the exact same way with the Raytheon and that tube ended up just tucked away for a long time. I would let that baby bake for 48 hours or so before clinically listening to it. And yes, the Sylvania are so lush!! Love em!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Check out this bidding... These are collection status bulbs, Sylvania. Too rich for my blood, I threw in a bid but that got overtaken quick! 
Fun to watch if you like geeking out over stuff like this, 
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/183896678905


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Check out this bidding... These are collection status bulbs, Sylvania. Too rich for my blood, I threw in a bid but that got overtaken quick!
> Fun to watch if you like geeking out over stuff like this,
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/183896678905



I saw this too.  Definitely too rich for me also.  But its impressive nonetheless.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> I only tried my Raytheon 6SN7GT for a few minutes, so take my comments about it with a grain of salt.  What I immediately noticed was how this tube emphasized the vocal range, i.e. vocal-centric, and was a bit dry-sounding (almost clinical) compared to the more lush Sylvania's and '40s RCA gray-glass.  Unfortunately, I also noticed how the soundstage on the Raytheon wasn't as wide as the Sylvania's and RCA's.  Still, the Raytheons are a decent choice if you are looking for vocal-centric tubes.  For myself, I tend to reach for the more lush sounding Sylvania and RCA gray-glass tubes, as clinical-sounding tubes tend to approach the sound achieved by decent solidstate amps, and I have a decent SS amp for that kind of sound,


i JUST a aND b THESE TWO AGAIN this evening and I would say your spot on here (this with an RCA 6AS7G), wondering if the military type (WGT) of these two would be the same or just different animals altogether.


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Check out this bidding... These are collection status bulbs, Sylvania. Too rich for my blood, I threw in a bid but that got overtaken quick!
> Fun to watch if you like geeking out over stuff like this,
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/183896678905





Slade01 said:


> I saw this too.  Definitely too rich for me also.  But its impressive nonetheless.


Lol, yeah I saw it up a few days ago and thought about bidding but then wised up. 

IMO, the 6SN7GTB was a throwaway since they can be had fairly cheaply.  The 6SN7 Reference Guide had reviews of that 6SN7WGTA that weren't exactly effusive with praise (e.g. "dry sounding" was the common refrain).  That leaves the VT-231 metal base, which looks like a 6SN7W despite the 6SN7GT identifier (6SN7W is notorious for being short-lived, see reference guide).  Anywho, the tube that interested me the most in that collection was the VT-231, but I already have two black base VT-231's in my collection and, frankly, the price has shot up well above what I'm willing to spend on tubes.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Lol, yeah I saw it up a few days ago and thought about bidding but then wised up.
> 
> IMO, the 6SN7GTB was a throwaway since they can be had fairly cheaply.  The 6SN7 Reference Guide had reviews of that 6SN7WGTA that weren't exactly effusive with praise (e.g. "dry sounding" was the common refrain).  That leaves the VT-231 metal base, which looks like a 6SN7W despite the 6SN7GT identifier (6SN7W is notorious for being short-lived, see reference guide).  Anywho, the tube that interested me the most in that collection was the VT-231, but I already have two black base VT-231's in my collection and, frankly, the price has shot up well above what I'm willing to spend on tubes.



So are the VT-231s significantly steps up above average tubes?  Is it worth the price these days in your opinion?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> So are the VT-231s significantly steps up above average tubes?  Is it worth the price these days in your opinion?


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 1, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> So are the VT-231s significantl





sennfan83261 said:


> Lol, yeah I saw it up a few days ago and thought about bidding but then wised up.
> 
> IMO, the 6SN7GTB was a throwaway since they can be had fairly cheaply.  The 6SN7 Reference Guide had reviews of that 6SN7WGTA that weren't exactly effusive with praise (e.g. "dry sounding" was the common refrain).  That leaves the VT-231 metal base, which looks like a 6SN7W despite the 6SN7GT identifier (6SN7W is notorious for being short-lived, see reference guide).  Anywho, the tube that interested me the most in that collection was the VT-231, but I already have two black base VT-231's in my collection and, frankly, the price has shot up well above what I'm willing to spend on tubes.


Yeah the Slyvania WGTA has a mixed bag of reviews, thinking it's dependent on year they were made. And to answer SLADEs question, VT-231 are nice to have as collection items, bragging rights sort of, some consumer versions sound just the same for a lot less like the Grey Glass RCA for example, this from reading on what's said on the forums here. If I had the monies ( or I was single)  I'd be all over the vintage tubes (and we're just talking drivers here, add the CV2523 MARCONI OSRAM TUBE to the mix of power tubes $$$. Go's endless almost.


----------



## JKDJedi

Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Tall  (w Sylvania 7236) My weekend roll...


----------



## ggillies

Nice combo.  Enjoy your weekend.


----------



## ggillies (Aug 2, 2019)

My Friday afternoon rolling opinions.

Decided to re-listen to some of my lesser used 6SN7 tubes and took notes on them.  All of these were tested with the Tung-Sol 7236 on my DarkVoice 336SE

Tracks listened to:  Amy Winehouse - back in black, Stevie Nicks - Gold Dust Woman, The Eagles - Victim of Love, Massive Attack - Angel, BauHaus - Bela Lugosi's Dead, Live, The Smiths - Bigmouth Strikes Again, Cream - Crossroads Live, Golden Brown - The Stranglers.


Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6SN7GT VT-231  Soggy, indistinct bass, really quite bad; midrange ok, treble rolled off.  Very disappointed
with this tube, given its reputation.  Maybe I have a bad one, but it doesn't show well here.

Sylvania 6SN7W Better than the VT-231, bass far more articulate and tight, as well as deeper and more controlled. Beautiful
midrange and female vocals (Amy Winehouse back in black, Stevie Nicks Gold Dust Woman) treble nice and smooth.

RAYTHEON 6SN7GT 2 HOLE Black Plate, surprisingly good; bass is solid, seems like a tad recessed vocals and smaller sound-stage.
Treble, sibilance, cymbals are VERY nice; smooth yet crisp; maybe my favorite treble/top end of all the tubes?  Particularly lovely playing The Stranglers Golden Brown; warm, smooth, gorgeous.

Wow.. Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA still the best, and by a pretty wide margin; not even close.  On Massive Attack's Angel, the bass
is deep, controlled, coherent. The difference between this tube, and let's say the KEN-RAD VT-231s bass is massive.  The mid-range
is smooth, controlled, tight, great with Amy Winehouse back in black, Stevie Nicks Gold Dust Woman.  The treble is lovely and
crisp, yet smooth.  There are details resolved by the pairing of this with the Tung-Sol 7236 that don't exist, or are barely
perceptible with the other tubes paired with the 7236.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 2, 2019)

ggillies said:


> My Friday afternoon rolling opinions.
> 
> Decided to re-listen to some of my lesser used 6SN7 tubes and took notes on them.  All of these were tested with the Tung-Sol 7236 on my DarkVoice 336SE
> 
> ...


Wow I'm surprised by the Kenrad with all the great reviews on it and that Raytheon looks like a SYLVANIA! Is it stamped 312 by chance? Happy to hear the Sylvania 6SN7W did so well for ya I was rooting for it before I read your comments  Gonna hunt for a Philips 6SN7WGTA! Love reading about these hidden jems! Nice write up. (GREAT COLLECTION)


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Wow I'm surprised by the Kenrad with all the great reviews on it and that Raytheon looks like a SYLVANIA! Is it stamped 312 by chance? Happy to hear the Sylvania 6SN7W did so well for ya I was rooting for it before I read your comments  Gonna hunt for a Philips 6SN7WGTA! Love reading about these hidden jems! Nice write up. (GREAT COLLECTION)





ggillies said:


> My Friday afternoon rolling opinions.
> 
> Decided to re-listen to some of my lesser used 6SN7 tubes and took notes on them.  All of these were tested with the Tung-Sol 7236 on my DarkVoice 336SE
> 
> ...




Equally surprised about the Ken Rad VT-231 - i mean i know the black glass type is the super hyped one and more proven, but im coming to believe from going through these forums that any VT-231 tubes should always be at least on par with the consumer grade equivalents, not worst.  Thank you for that review!


----------



## Keno18

Slade01 said:


> Equally surprised about the Ken Rad VT-231 - i mean i know the black glass type is the super hyped one and more proven, but im coming to believe from going through these forums that any VT-231 tubes should always be at least on par with the consumer grade equivalents, not worst.  Thank you for that review!


I wish I could remember where I read it but I read that the vt231 is not any different from the consumer version. The vt231 designation only means it's the military issue.


----------



## Slade01

Keno18 said:


> I wish I could remember where I read it but I read that the vt231 is not any different from the consumer version. The vt231 designation only means it's the military issue.



You are absolutely right.  Doing some digging, the designation only means it was military issue but same exact construction.  I guess the audiofool in me is wanting to ascribe a little more magic to those kinds of tubes.  But yeah, I mean most people rave about them so its hard to believe they could suck but anything is possible.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 2, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Check out this bidding... These are collection status bulbs, Sylvania. Too rich for my blood, I threw in a bid but that got overtaken quick!
> Fun to watch if you like geeking out over stuff like this,
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/183896678905


It eventually went for $160.50 [insert_ "how about no meme" _here]


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> You are absolutely right.  Doing some digging, the designation only means it was military issue but same exact construction.  I guess the audiofool in me is wanting to ascribe a little more magic to those kinds of tubes.  But yeah, I mean most people rave about them so its hard to believe they could suck but anything is possible.


They have nostalgic value so there's that, and remember these are in the 40's and a decade later, maybe the tube tech got better? Anyway, In fairness to GGILLIES review, he's not the first to review them as such. Sylvanias VT-231 are bettered by the bad boys the same. To find a VT-231 that still shines to this day will be a three figure buy, some debate it's the round plates Tung Sol.


----------



## sennfan83261

Trying out my my recent acquisitions, National Union 6F8G and Sylvania 7236:


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## JKDJedi (Aug 3, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Trying out my my recent acquisitions, National Union 6F8G and Sylvania 7236:


DUDE! So Clean! The wire adapter is for? I've seen this in my coworkers old tubed radio (1937) he has in his Bomber Lowrider, He won't let me pull the tubes out..lol. (it doesnt work and all dusted) But your set up looks Righteous!!


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 4, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> DUDE! So Clean! The wire adapter is for? I've seen this in my coworkers old tubed radio (1937) he has in his Bomber Lowrider, He won't let me pull the tubes out..lol. (it doesnt work and all dusted) But your set up looks Righteous!!


It is a 6F8G/6C8G to 6SN7 adapter to allow one to use 6F8G (also designated as VT-99) and 6C8G tubes in their 6SN7 socket* (search for "6f8g 6c8g 6sn7 adapter" on ebay, without quotes).  The wire is topped by a plate cap that connects to a triode grid (see spec sheet below).  Do note that 6C8G tubes have close to double the amplification factor to 6SN7/6F8G tubes, so the 6C8G will be louder than the other two.  This will be a factor for those like me who did the Fitz-mod on their Darkvoice amps.  Brownstd here on head-fi turned me onto them here (see also that user's massdrop post below for more of their recommendations): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-136#post-14874572

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaq0423.htm
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6f8g.html
https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2391797

*As tempting it may be, please do not use 6F8G/6C8G tubes as a drop-in replacement for power tubes like 421A/5998/6080/6AS7G/7236/etc.  I just saw post on the Bottlehead forums from someone who did just that, smh.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 4, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> It is a 6F8G/6C8G to 6SN7 adapter to allow one to use 6F8G (also designated as VT-99) and 6C8G tubes in their 6SN7 socket* (search for "6f8g 6c8g 6sn7 adapter" on ebay, without quotes).  The wire is topped by a plate cap that connects to a triode grid (see spec sheet below).  Do note that 6C8G tubes have close to double the amplification factor than 6SN7/6F8G, so the 6C8G will be louder than the other two.  This will be a factor for those like me who did the Fitz-mod on their Darkvoice amps.  Brownstd here on head-fi turned me onto them here (see also that user's massdrop post below for more of their recommendations): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-136#post-14874572
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaq0423.htm
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6f8g.html
> ...


Talk about talking pieces... This is it! So these came out before the 6SN7. What's your in intial impression on sound?@sennfan83261 did a quick search on the tubes mentioned and wow...holy price crunch... These are highly sought after!


----------



## JKDJedi

SMH.. Just noticed the adapter is coming in from CHINA o.O  Expected delivery.. 29th of this month LMAO..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> SMH.. Just noticed the adapter is coming in from CHINA o.O  Expected delivery.. 29th of this month LMAO..



Chi-Fi from China.  3-6 weeks?  Sounds about right...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Chi-Fi from China.  3-6 weeks?  Sounds about right...


Lol... I have a few tubes coming in tomorrow, probably should wait before pulling the trigger on that nice CF8G tube. Looks badass!


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 7, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Talk about talking pieces... This is it! So these came out before the 6SN7. What's your in intial impression on sound?@sennfan83261 did a quick search on the tubes mentioned and wow...holy price crunch... These are highly sought after!


I only have two 6F8G's at the moment (National Union and an RCA grey glass) and many more 6C8G's.  Listening to the combo below (National Union 6F8G + RCA 6AS7G) on my HD6XX, the vocals on Mandolin Orange's "From Now On" (YT link) are still very sweet, kick drums on Maison Neuve's "Victor" (YT) still have a nice thump, and sub-bass is still present on Spacetime Continuum's "Kairo" (YT, 5 minutes in), extremely close to that from my THX AAA 789 (SE output, Gain II), while presenting the characteristic tube sound for these cans [note: my sources of the above are CD FLAC].  As someone mentioned on the 6SN7 reference thread, the National Union tubes therein were more liquid than lush, which sounds about right with this National Union 6F8G when comes to its overall presentation (NB: I don't have any NU tubes mentioned in that 6SN7 thread to compare against, sorry).  Anyways, I'm glad that I jumped in and grabbed one at a reasonable price, as NOS pairs of these go for >$100.  As brownstd mentioned in their massdrop post, the cat is out of the bag for 6F8G's these days.


----------



## Slade01

Don't you hate it when you're trying to evaluate a tube sound and then you realize that you forget you had the player's EQ turned on?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Don't you hate it when you're trying to evaluate a tube sound and then you realize that you forget you had the player's EQ turned on?


LMAO how and what are you using that has EQs on it!!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> LMAO how and what are you using that has EQs on it!!



So I was playing around between two power tubes - an RCA JAN 6AS7G, and the famous Tung Sol 7236 which I got recently, and figured I needed these as the cornerstones. I've only owned a Sylvania 6080 and Svetlana Winged Cs up to this point.  So I was continuing where I left off with the CBS 6SN7GTB from my previous posts -- so far its sounding as good as the Westinghouse Reliatron.  I'm not surprised at this, since the construction seems to be virtually identical.  But I haven't dug around to see if they are made the same tube and just re-branded or not.  Aside from this, got a GE 6SN7GTB ('64) which I'm burning in and hope to put in some time with that also.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> So I was playing around between two power tubes - an RCA JAN 6AS7G, and the famous Tung Sol 7236 which I got recently, and figured I needed these as the cornerstones. I've only owned a Sylvania 6080 and Svetlana Winged Cs up to this point.  So I was continuing where I left off with the CBS 6SN7GTB from my previous posts -- so far its sounding as good as the Westinghouse Reliatron.  I'm not surprised at this, since the construction seems to be virtually identical.  But I haven't dug around to see if they are made the same tube and just re-branded or not.  Aside from this, got a GE 6SN7GTB ('64) which I'm burning in and hope to put in some time with that also.


Nice group of tubes there, and heck yeah if that sounds like the Westinghouse ..huge SCORE! JAN RCA looks sick, (meaning awesome) and GTB are among my favorites, super quick warm up time on those. Seems like the Tung Sol 7236 is this threads favorite power tube! I got a few tubes in and just one more later next week, and thats it for me for a few months.. (why don't I believe myself) first batch not to impressed with SENN warned me about them, hate it when he's right,  dam Sylvania WGTA, problem is they're the 60's batch.. 50's are better is what I read,  to forward for my tastes, your the one that got me interested in these GTA and GTB tubes..lol, not blaming you. So the one that just came in today is really beautiful and hope it sounds as good. 1955 Raytheon WGT.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Nice group of tubes there, and heck yeah if that sounds like the Westinghouse ..huge SCORE! JAN RCA looks sick, (meaning awesome) and GTB are among my favorites, super quick warm up time on those. Seems like the Tung Sol 7236 is this threads favorite power tube! I got a few tubes in and just one more later next week, and thats it for me for a few months.. (why don't I believe myself) first batch not to impressed with SENN warned me about them, hate it when he's right,  dam Sylvania WGTA, problem is they're the 60's batch.. 50's are better is what I read,  to forward for my tastes, your the one that got me interested in these GTA and GTB tubes..lol, not blaming you. So the one that just came in today is really beautiful and hope it sounds as good. 1955 Raytheon WGT.



The RCA 6AS7 that I got was really really clean...mint shape, even I was shocked when I got it.  Its seems to be a great all around tube...plays great with what i've thrown at it.  But i'm telling you hands down the tung sol 7236 is next level.  It just elevates the driver tube.  I mean the CBS and Westinghouse tubes, becoming my favorite right now...they sounded good...and with the tung sol...its that much better.  Better resolution, extracts details better...just adds that much more magic.   SENN is always on point as well.  Yeah, I was looking at Sylvania WGTAs but yeah, need to hone in on the 50s..but I think those are a pretty penny.  No worries, you got me on the Westinghouse kick, and i'm keeping an eye out for that Admiral branded tube as well.  The staggered hole plate configuration of that one intrigues me.  Let us know how that Raytheon is.  That brown base looks really cool.  The 50s seem to be a sweet spot for sure.


----------



## 19844

I use hifiman sundara and I interesting in darkvoice 336se. Is it ok to pair sundara with darkvoice? I just worry about impedance hum hiss or noice.

Sundara spec is :
Impedance @ 1kHz: 37 ohms
Sennsitivity: 94 dB


----------



## JKDJedi

19844 said:


> I use hifiman sundara and I interesting in darkvoice 336se. Is it ok to pair sundara with darkvoice? I just worry about impedance hum hiss or noice.
> 
> Sundara spec is :
> Impedance @ 1kHz: 37 ohms
> Sennsitivity: 94 dB


Not really, Darkvoice shines at it's best with high impedance headphones. I have the Hifiman 400i and it suffers on the Darkvoice.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Not really, Darkvoice shines at it's best with high impedance headphones. I have the Hifiman 400i and it suffers on the Darkvoice.



Ok so this is a good question.  I've got my Grado SR80e on the darkvoice, and it doesn't seem to suffer any sound wise.  It is a 32ohm impedance rating, and only thing is that i can barely put the DV volume past 7 as it is already loud, but these are dynamic headphones.  Is the consensus that low impedance cans just can't take advantage of the DV (can't handle it in the range where it is worth listening to), or is there just something inherent with planar magnetics that makes it "suffer" (makes it musically sound like crap?) with the DV?


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Ok so this is a good question.  I've got my Grado SR80e on the darkvoice, and it doesn't seem to suffer any sound wise.  It is a 32ohm impedance rating, and only thing is that i can barely put the DV volume past 7 as it is already loud, but these are dynamic headphones.  Is the consensus that low impedance cans just can't take advantage of the DV (can't handle it in the range where it is worth listening to), or is there just something inherent with planar magnetics that makes it "suffer" (makes it musically sound like crap?) with the DV?


It's the OTL design of the amp. Output Transformer-less . High impedance headphones get the max output of this design. And yes planars suffer with this design, at least with the Hifiman...they Excel with more power. Dependent on the headphones design and make too. If your headphones sound great on the Darkvoice, nice! Just know OTL was made/or at their best with high impedance headphones. Reason why the Sennhieser sounds so good on them.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/otl/otl.html
These guys have a gang of info,. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question.702109/
And from my quick read through that thread..

"take the common 6080/6AS7G OTL cathode follower amps. Output impedance is roughly 1/transconductance for a cathode follower. That puts the 6AS7 with transconductance of 7000 at about 142ohms. Changing the tube to a 5998 with transconductance around 14000 gets you down to 72 ohms. Even better is the 421A at 20000 which gets you close to 50 ohms. For OTLs with two output tubes (like WA2), cut those in half. I find the HD558 sounds good (to me) driven with a WA3 in the 5998 or 7236 configuration and it goes loud enough before distortion....but not to ear bleeding levels".


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> It's the OTL design of the amp. Output Transformer-less . High impedance headphones get the max output of this design. And yes planars suffer with this design, at least with the Hifiman...they Excel with more power. Dependent on the headphones design and make too. If your headphones sound great on the Darkvoice, nice! Just know OTL was made/or at their best with high impedance headphones. Reason why the Sennhieser sounds so good on them.
> http://www.audiodesignguide.com/otl/otl.html
> These guys have a gang of info,. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question.702109/
> And from my quick read through that thread..
> ...



Yup.  It was a good experiment. I actually never used low impedance cans with the darkvoice before last night.  Agreed.  Was just trying to help shed light for that user (19844) asking about his sundaras.  Lol.  I'm sure if i turned up the DV any more than i had, it would distort all to hell and destroy the drivers.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yup.  It was a good experiment. I actually never used low impedance cans with the darkvoice before last night.  Agreed.  Was just trying to help shed light for that user (19844) asking about his sundaras.  Lol.  I'm sure if i turned up the DV any more than i had, it would distort all to hell and destroy the drivers.


And I'm seriously thinking of getting a


Slade01 said:


> Yup.  It was a good experiment. I actually never used low impedance cans with the darkvoice before last night.  Agreed.  Was just trying to help shed light for that user (19844) asking about his sundaras.  Lol.  I'm sure if i turned up the DV any more than i had, it would distort all to hell and destroy the drivers.


It's hit and miss, and my experience with the Hifiman is that the bass just sounds out of place, compared to playing it on a solid state, and somewhat distorted. (this at 35ohms) BUT my Fidelio X2 sound really good, (dynamic drivers) and those are 30ohms! GGillies has planars (Oppo) that sound good for hiim on his Darkvoice, so yeah, a crap shoot of the dice I guess. My understanding is the lower the Ohms, which power tube you use will play into the introduction of distortion at said volume level.. o.O (what did I say?) The higher the impedance, the less you really have to think about it. That's why I almost exclusively use my Sennheiser with the Darkness (300ohms).  And technically any headphone will play on the Darkvoice, Same can be said for any smartphone, You could play any headphone on a smartphone, some will shine better than others though. And again it's all on the impedance design, my Sennheiser can play on my smartphone, barely, just not as enjoyable. So when you hear "no that headphone can't be played on the Darkvoice" it's not in the literate sense, it's just that they're feeling it won't be that enjoyable.


----------



## ls13coco

Just to add to the above - The HD6XX and AKG K 712 Pro definitely are sounding beautiful on the DarkVoice, but planars do suffer. They do not sound bad running off of the DV, but compared to how they sound with a SS or hybrid amp you can tell that they just aren't getting the proper power. I'm sure plenty of people could be happy with the combination, but it kind of reminds me of messing with polarity with the way it just sounds a little.. off.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

I'm amazed that so many put up with the volume control as supplied. (1) The easy/lazy way to have at least a reasonable volume range is to attenuate the pot's output by using appropriate resistors before the pot see www.goldpt.com/mods.html. (2) Remove the pot (really easy) and sub with a standard Alps Blue 50K shunted with  Z foils see www.world-designs/forum, look for the FAQ forum and 'shunting the pot. (3) just remove the existing pot and use an external volume control like - Stereo Coffee.

Whatever type of h/phones you use up rating the o/put caps from 30uF per side will give a real solid bass to the overall sound. Removing the PCB to do this is easy enough but it's hard to replace because the Tx wires are so short. Much simpler is to destroy the existing Chinese caps but making damn sure you leave the very thin legs intact. You can then solder new caps to these with no degradation in sound as long as your nifty with a soldering iron. 

The only effective way to remove the hum is the Fitz/Pink Floyd way. These 3 mods elevate the DV to an entirely new level.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gallic Dweller said:


> I'm amazed that so many put up with the volume control as supplied. (1) The easy/lazy way to have at least a reasonable volume range is to attenuate the pot's output by using appropriate resistors before the pot see www.goldpt.com/mods.html. (2) Remove the pot (really easy) and sub with a standard Alps Blue 50K shunted with  Z foils see www.world-designs/forum, look for the FAQ forum and 'shunting the pot. (3) just remove the existing pot and use an external volume control like - Stereo Coffee.
> 
> Whatever type of h/phones you use up rating the o/put caps from 30uF per side will give a real solid bass to the overall sound. Removing the PCB to do this is easy enough but it's hard to replace because the Tx wires are so short. Much simpler is to destroy the existing Chinese caps but making damn sure you leave the very thin legs intact. You can then solder new caps to these with no degradation in sound as long as your nifty with a soldering iron.
> 
> The only effective way to remove the hum is the Fitz/Pink Floyd way. These 3 mods elevate the DV to an entirely new level.


That doesn't sound hard at all.. so your an electrical engineer?


----------



## Gallic Dweller

These mods don't require special expertise, just common sense, a decent soldering kit that's all. I'm surprised that no commercial enterprise has addressed the obvious remedies and produced a problem free example. There are questions over the Tx - 220v instead of 230v / the 6SN7 should be seeing 6.3V not 6.8V.  Whilst the side panels do allow a lot of heat to escape, a much deeper chassis would allow a PC fan to be sited underneath. A larger PCB would allow more space for bigger o/put caps - a good h/amp would become an outstanding one.

There's no question that h/amps are a growing market, the advantages of using h/phones in many situations are clear - late night listening, not disturbing sleeping children/neighbours/wife/partner. When modded the OTL DV sound creams everything but the best speaker based system sited in a room suited to play music - at a fraction of the price.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gallic Dweller said:


> These mods don't require special expertise, just common sense, a decent soldering kit that's all. I'm surprised that no commercial enterprise has addressed the obvious remedies and produced a problem free example. There are questions over the Tx - 220v instead of 230v / the 6SN7 should be seeing 6.3V not 6.8V.  Whilst the side panels do allow a lot of heat to escape, a much deeper chassis would allow a PC fan to be sited underneath. A larger PCB would allow more space for bigger o/put caps - a good h/amp would become an outstanding one.
> 
> There's no question that h/amps are a growing market, the advantages of using h/phones in many situations are clear - late night listening, not disturbing sleeping children/neighbours/wife/partner. When modded the OTL DV sound creams everything but the best speaker based system sited in a room suited to play music - at a fraction of the price.


Wish you were my neighbor! These amps are entry level amps so not surprised by the said compromises.Ignorance is bliss I guess, up till now i thought my headphone amp was the best thing since the evention of ice cream, now I don't feel pretty anymore


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Wish you were my neighbor! These amps are entry level amps so not surprised by the said compromises.Ignorance is bliss I guess, up till now i thought my headphone amp was the best thing since the evention of ice cream, now I don't feel pretty anymore


Just because the DV can be modified to sound "better" doesn't change the way it sounds now. Most amps have mods that can be made to them, even hi-end ones. I happen to like what I hear right now, it beats my Vali 2 which if you read the Vali 2 thread is saying something.


----------



## Towa

Just bought one of these recently and after listening to the stock Chinese tubes for the last week, I am ready to roll something else... Does anybody have a good budget (let's say *≤* $100) combo to recommend?

I'm primarily using my HD 6xx with the DV btw


----------



## Keno18

I


Towa said:


> Just bought one of these recently and after listening to the stock Chinese tubes for the last week, I am ready to roll something else... Does anybody have a good budget (let's say *≤* $100) combo to recommend?
> 
> I'm primarily using my HD 6xx with the DV btw


I've been using the Tung-Sol 7236 and Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears to great effect. But you'll also find people like th= rca grey glass 6sn7gt as well. There's a whole bunch of tube rolling info in the posts just prior to this one.


----------



## Towa

Thanks I'll take a look. 

This thread can be a little intimidating for someone like me who has no idea about tube rolling or the intricacies involved. I'm not even really sure where to buy from or if the prices are fair. Just trying to get a grasp and not lose myself in the process, definitely don't want to end up getting hooked and spend a fortune on these things lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Towa said:


> Thanks I'll take a look.
> 
> This thread can be a little intimidating for someone like me who has no idea about tube rolling or the intricacies involved. I'm not even really sure where to buy from or if the prices are fair. Just trying to get a grasp and not lose myself in the process, definitely don't want to end up getting hooked and spend a fortune on these things lol


You don't know the power of the DARK SIDE...


----------



## Keno18

Towa said:


> Thanks I'll take a look.
> 
> This thread can be a little intimidating for someone like me who has no idea about tube rolling or the intricacies involved. I'm not even really sure where to buy from or if the prices are fair. Just trying to get a grasp and not lose myself in the process, definitely don't want to end up getting hooked and spend a fortune on these things lol


Understandable, most tube purchases are done through ebay.com. If you have any questions about a particular tube or vendor just ask. Someone will answer your question.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> Understandable, most tube purchases are done through ebay.com. If you have any questions about a particular tube or vendor just ask. Someone will answer your question.



I would offer a bit of caution on tubes from eBay. I prefer to use reputable tube vendors, like Vivatubes.com, tubemonger.com, Tubedepot.com and Upscaleaudio.com. 
Some eBay ads say, "Tests Good" some don't even say that. We don't know whether they have a calibrated tester, or they just light up when under power. A bad-testing tube can damage your amplifier. 

I have bought tubes from eBay, and 'knock on wood' I have been lucky. Just be careful, out there, it is the Wild West...


----------



## JKDJedi

Robert Padgett said:


> I would offer a bit of caution on tubes from eBay. I prefer to use reputable tube vendors, like Vivatubes.com, tubemonger.com, Tubedepot.com and Upscaleaudio.com.
> Some eBay ads say, "Tests Good" some don't even say that. We don't know whether they have a calibrated tester, or they just light up when under power. A bad-testing tube can damage your amplifier.
> 
> I have bought tubes from eBay, and 'knock on wood' I have been lucky. Just be careful, out there, it is the Wild West...


Ebay has gotten a lot better on their return policy's, they also have a eBay Money Back Guaranty. I've only had to use it a couple of times (last 20 years) and it's straight forward with help along the process. And yes you can land a baddy as well as a goodie, once you find a reputable seller on eBAy you can find some gold hidden. Do your RESEARCH!! Lot of threads here that can help in your buying excursions. The venders mentioned here Vivatubes, Tubemonger, Tubedepot, will land you a for sure winner, no if's and's or but's...


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> I
> 
> I've been using the Tung-Sol 7236 and Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears to great effect. But you'll also find people like th= rca grey glass 6sn7gt as well. There's a whole bunch of tube rolling info in the posts just prior to this one.


I'm about to purchase a pair of these Tung Sol Mouse Ear tubes, 1950 black T Plates. Tested strong, only need one, anyone interested in the other pm me. This from Tube Maze..

" I was taken away by the sound stage and air of the tube. It’s truly unique in 6sn7 family. Air is in everything, vocals, instruments, etc. It truly shined in life performances bringing the performance right into your room! Superb bass (a bit heavy for my taste and caries over to mid-bass) and transparency, and did I mention the air?!?!?! These tubes are getting harder to get, but get it you must! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED"


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> I'm about to purchase a pair of these Tung Sol Mouse Ear tubes, 1950 black T Plates. Tested strong, only need one, anyone interested in the other pm me. This from Tube Maze..
> 
> " I was taken away by the sound stage and air of the tube. It’s truly unique in 6sn7 family. Air is in everything, vocals, instruments, etc. It truly shined in life performances bringing the performance right into your room! Superb bass (a bit heavy for my taste and caries over to mid-bass) and transparency, and did I mention the air?!?!?! These tubes are getting harder to get, but get it you must! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED"


Those black plates are supposed to be great, good score!


----------



## Robert Padgett

JKDJedi said:


> I'm about to purchase a pair of these Tung Sol Mouse Ear tubes, 1950 black T Plates. Tested strong, only need one, anyone interested in the other pm me. This from Tube Maze..
> 
> " I was taken away by the sound stage and air of the tube. It’s truly unique in 6sn7 family. Air is in everything, vocals, instruments, etc. It truly shined in life performances bringing the performance right into your room! Superb bass (a bit heavy for my taste and caries over to mid-bass) and transparency, and did I mention the air?!?!?! These tubes are getting harder to get, but get it you must! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED"




I have a Black plate with three holes mouse-ears, these are early production and fairly rare. The majority of Mousers out there are gray two-hole and labelledTung-Sol. Mine was a Hytron dated 1953.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 9, 2019)

Gallic Dweller said:


> I'm amazed that so many put up with the volume control as supplied. (1) The easy/lazy way to have at least a reasonable volume range is to attenuate the pot's output by using appropriate resistors before the pot see www.goldpt.com/mods.html. (2) Remove the pot (really easy) and sub with a standard Alps Blue 50K shunted with  Z foils see www.world-designs/forum, look for the FAQ forum and 'shunting the pot. (3) just remove the existing pot and use an external volume control like - Stereo Coffee.
> 
> Whatever type of h/phones you use up rating the o/put caps from 30uF per side will give a real solid bass to the overall sound. Removing the PCB to do this is easy enough but it's hard to replace because the Tx wires are so short. Much simpler is to destroy the existing Chinese caps but making damn sure you leave the very thin legs intact. You can then solder new caps to these with no degradation in sound as long as your nifty with a soldering iron.
> 
> The only effective way to remove the hum is the Fitz/Pink Floyd way. These 3 mods elevate the DV to an entirely new level.


I have to agree.  The OEM volume pot, despite having a smooth feel, needs to be modded due to the headphone output's listenable volume range being both far too narrow and low (especially w/ the Fitz mod).  I read somewhere else that this was probably due to allowing enough headroom for the DV336 to serve as a preamp.  Thanks for the references though, as I remember seeing the link in (1) for adding resistors before.  I wonder if a straight swap with a 100K Alps Blue Velvet (log and loudness taps) would suffice.


----------



## Towa

Okay so I just bought a Tung-Sol 7236 from ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223614201789) Seemed like a pretty good price to me (is it?) and looked legit, seller has 100% feedback too. Now I'm about to buy a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (https://www.tubedepot.com/products/tung-sol-6sn7gt-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube) and on the side when adding to cart they have options for extra money (balanced triodes, high gain, low noise & microphonics) what does this stuff mean? Should I just ignore? so lost right now haha


----------



## JKDJedi

Robert Padgett said:


> I have a Black plate with three holes mouse-ears, these a





Towa said:


> Okay so I just bought a Tung-Sol 7236 from ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223614201789) Seemed like a pretty good price to me (is it?) and looked legit, seller has 100% feedback too. Now I'm about to buy a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (https://www.tubedepot.com/products/tung-sol-6sn7gt-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube) and on the side when adding to cart they have options for extra money (balanced triodes, high gain, low noise & microphonics) what does this stuff mean? Should I just ignore? so lost right now haha


Tung Sol 7236 can be found cheaper on auctions (when they have them) and usually go for the price that's listed there on the link you posted. Looks legit. And as far as the Tun Sol 6sn7gtb, the first one is for matching tubes, your just buying one so not needed and the other two options are picks of the crop, BEST OF the batch, not needed, I have this tube sounds good after some burn in. Although you might or should consider getting the Real Deal Holyfield vesrion of that tube here---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-6...121330?hash=item3fc8a3db32:g:IccAAOSww69dQDbc


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 12, 2019)

These guys are lot nicer to look at in person, looks like a mini me 6AS7 

Sylvania 6F8G VT-99


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> These guys are lot nicer to look at in person, looks like a mini me 6AS7
> 
> Sylvania 6F8G VT-99


Funny, I purchased a Sylvania VT-99 last week myself


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Funny, I purchased a Sylvania VT-99 last week myself


Lol, I can't enjoy mine yet, no adapter. Please tell me how it compares to the National Union.


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

Hello!

I recently got a Darkvoice 336 se and will be getting a pair of HD 6xx’s to pair with it. Do you guys have some recommendations for some new tubes? I’d preferably like to keep the total cost under $75 if possible. 

Thanks in advance.


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## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Hello!
> 
> I recently got a Darkvoice 336 se and will be getting a pair of HD 6xx’s to pair with it. Do you guys have some recommendations for some new tubes? I’d preferably like to keep the total cost under $75 if possible.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Tung Sol or Sylvania 7236 for the back (6AS7 slot), and any 1950-58 Sylvania or Tung-Sol 6SN7GT for the front. You can not go wrong with either combo for starters.


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## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Tung Sol or Sylvania 7236 for the back (6AS7 slot), and any 1950-58 Sylvania or Tung-Sol 6SN7GT for the front. You can not go wrong with either combo for starters.


Haha, I was going to write the same thing except that I would add the RCA 6AS7G (coke bottle) tubes to your recommendation list because they provide a warmer and slightly wider sound.  However, the more impactful Tung-Sol 7236 is the best bang for your buck as power tubes go despite them going up in price recently (some price them at $45 whereas before they typically went for ~$35).


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## Towa

Yeah I just bought the 7236 and 6SN7GTB as my first tube roll.




 


 


 
So far this combo is vastly superior to stock. Sounds a lot wider and more airy than before.


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## Slade01

I want to throw this question out to the tube braintrust.  I have a Sylvania JAN 6080wb tube.  For the life of me, it doesnt sound good with any tubes I have tried pairing with it.  It just sounds "meh"/anemic no matter what.  Is it just me or is there some tube it is supposed to pair good with?  

Btw - yes can't go wrong with rca 6as7g or tungsol/sylvania 7236 for the power tube.  They enhance the sound for sure in a great way.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 14, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Haha, I was going to write the same thing except that I would add the RCA 6AS7G (coke bottle) tubes to your recommendation list because the





Slade01 said:


> I want to throw this question out to the tube braintrust.  I have a Sylvania JAN 6080wb tube.  For the life of me, it doesnt sound good with any tubes I have tried pairing with it.  It just sounds "meh"/anemic no matter what.  Is it just me or is there some tube it is supposed to pair good with?
> 
> Btw - yes can't go wrong with rca 6as7g or tungsol/sylvania 7236 for the power tube.  They enhance the sound for sure in a great way.


The 6AS7G thread reports the 6080 to be "*low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging" *I have two of them, both Philips ( 6080WC & 6080 ) and they sound so different from each other, and depending on the mood or tube you match them with makes the difference more pronounce. What you might be hearing, or not hearing, is the little xtra boost in gain from the 7236 tube. Unfortunately, there's no bang for your buck 6080 out there (that I know of, someone please chime in if there is!) If you want a clean sounding 6080, get the card out. Mullard, Bendix, makes some nice ones. And maybe yours needs a good burn in. For me the Sylvania Chrome Dome 6SN7GT (early 50's) was a great match with the 6080.
Edit: just a and b with 6080 and 7236 with a Tung Sol and yes the 6080 sounds as you described it, and I have to confess I almost got rid of my 6080 because of the preferred sound of the 7236 a few months back, went on an anti 6080 parade on a few pages here and Facebook. And was told to let the 6080 settle in to the amp for a week, so I did, and wow, it made a difference on my perception of the sound. Good question!


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## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Unfortunately, there's no bang for your buck 6080 out there (that I know of, someone please chime in if there is!)


That used to be the Sylvania 6080GB, as they used to be had for $10 or so, times have changed unfortunately.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 13, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> That used to be the Sylvania 6080GB, as they used to be had for $10 or so, times have changed unfortunately.


That was one hard tube to find, Some great reviews on the tube, nice find Sennfan


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## sennfan83261

Nice.  I was about to say that you should keep the second 6080GB as a backup later down the road.  Let all of us know how they compare to the others that you have.


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## Slade01 (Aug 14, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> The 6AS7G thread reports the 6080 to be "*low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging" *I have two of them, both Philips ( 6080WC & 6080 ) and they sound so different from each other, and depending on the mood or tube you match them with makes the difference more pronounce. What you might be hearing, or not hearing, is the little xtra boost in gain from the 7236 tube. Unfortunately, there's no bang for your buck 6080 out there (that I know of, someone please chime in if there is!) If you want a clean sounding 6080, get the card out. Mullard, Bendix, makes some nice ones. And maybe yours needs a good burn in. For me the Sylvania Chrome Dome 6SN7GT (early 50's) was a great match with the 6080.
> Edit: just a and b with 6080 and 7236 with a Tung Sol and yes the 6080 sounds as you described it, and I have to confess I almost got rid of my 6080 because of the preferred sound of the 7236 a few months back, went on an anti 6080 parade on a few pages here and Facebook. And was told to let the 6080 settle in to the amp for a week, so I did, and wow, it made a difference on my perception of the sound. Good question!



Thanks -  Yes, I am at that stage too where I was about to just get rid of this 6080 and have not looked at any 6080s since trying it.  I will keep the 6080 in right now and see if more burn changes my mind.  Ironically, the only tube I have actually liked pairing with this 6080 so far is a GE 6SN7GTB (early 60s), which is the one tube i *disliked* the most out of what I own.  Up to now, to my ears anyways -- this GE tube has lived up to the description from the 6SN7 Identification Thread here, where its an average tube, that is nothing to go out of the way for (dry, gritty, bloated).  But with this pairing, I can make out a more airy/wider sound stage than before.  Mids/Vocals are more liquid, but the bass can still be a bit bloated at times (depending on the song I suppose).  All in all its more musical though, which I can live with.


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## sennfan83261 (Aug 14, 2019)

Towa said:


> Yeah I just bought the 7236 and 6SN7GTB as my first tube roll.
> ....
> So far this combo is vastly superior to stock. Sounds a lot wider and more airy than before.


Yeah, the stock tubes are pretty crappy, as anything would be better than them.  Your combo should serve you well for awhile.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 14, 2019)

Gonna eat dinner, have a shot of tequila, then take this set up for sit down session.. (Winged C 6H13C & Sylvania VT-99 CF8G)

EDIT: (1.5 hours later) Wow..Sennfan... this 80 year old tube is just as amazing to listen to as it is to look at, relaxed analog sound with rich instruments and vocals. Has this cool little reverb with the echos that scream vintage vacuum tube here, I'm saying this with a huge grin on my face, thank you Sennfan...thank you!!


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## sennfan83261 (Sep 11, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Gonna eat dinner, have a shot of tequila, then take this set up for sit down session.. (Winged C 6H13C & Sylvania VT-99 CF8G)
> 
> EDIT: (1.5 hours later) Wow..Sennfan... this 80 year old tube is just as amazing to listen to as it is to look at, relaxed analog sound with rich instruments and vocals. Has this cool little reverb with the echos that scream vintage vacuum tube here, I'm saying this with a huge grin on my face, thank you Sennfan...thank you!!


Great minds think alike, hehe.  Yeah, a more relaxed, warmer sound (slightly less treble) than the NU 6F8G round plates with the traditional Sylvania emphasis on the mids.  Still, I typically love Sylvania tubes and the Sylvania VT-99 is no exception, a wonderful tube imo.  With the RCA 6AS7G silver lettering/black plates, the soundstage and imaging are pretty awesome.  Some observations on this tube (and others):

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/tubes/221750/6f8g-vt99-observations
http://web.archive.org/web/20160517232839/http://www.tubemaze.info/sylvania-6f8gvt-99-t-plates/ [EDIT (*9/11/19* ):This site had an informative review on the Sylvania VT-99 but it appears to have been hijacked at this date.  Updated with web archive snapshot]


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## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Thanks -  Yes, I am at that stage too where I was about to just get rid of this 6080 and have not looked at any 6080s since trying it.  I will keep the 6080 in right now and see if more burn changes my mind.  Ironically, the only tube I have actually liked pairing with this 6080 so far is a GE 6SN7GTB (early 60s), which is the one tube i *disliked* the most out of what I own.  Up to now, to my ears anyways -- this GE tube has lived up to the description from the 6SN7 Identification Thread here, where its an average tube, that is nothing to go out of the way for (dry, gritty, bloated).  But with this pairing, I can make out a more airy/wider sound stage than before.  Mids/Vocals are more liquid, but the bass can still be a bit bloated at times (depending on the song I suppose).  All in all its more musical though, which I can live with.


So it turns out my Philips 6080WC (I had totally forgotten this) is actually a Sylvania O.O  We probably have the same tube. what year was yours? ( I searched the net and it lead me to some knuckhead asking about the Philips 6080WC origins). And I found a tube (from my junk drawer) that plays really nice with the Sylvania 6080, the RCA 6SN7GT grey glass.


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> So it turns out my Philips 6080WC (I had totally forgotten this) is actually a Sylvania O.O  We probably have the same tube. what year was yours? ( I searched the net and it lead me to some knuckhead asking about the Philips 6080WC origins). And I found a tube (from my junk drawer) that plays really nice with the Sylvania 6080, the RCA 6SN7GT grey glass.



The printed code on mine is ECB 6643.  On the box i got it with, it says date packed 10-65.  Not sure how to interpret that other than it is from 65 or 66?


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## JKDJedi (Aug 18, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> The printed code on mine is ECB 6643.  On the box i got it with, it says date packed 10-65.  Not sure how to interpret that other than it is from 65 or 66?


65 is my best guess, the one I have is from 1987 lol, probably the last one they ever made (joking)


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## JKDJedi




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## DarkDrummer

Slade01 said:


> Chi-Fi from China.  3-6 weeks?  Sounds about right...


That’s only if you pay extra for super speedy delivery.....otherwise it will come via The Slow Boat From China!!! :>(


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## JKDJedi (Aug 22, 2019)

The build on these are very nice and liking the gold colored rods, will be comparing these with the other 6080 I own and hoping to get acquainted with said highly "musical" discription from other reviews mentioned about these Gold Brand 6080 tubes. Any suggestions on which driver to pair these with?


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## JKDJedi (Aug 23, 2019)

So my very first impressions of the tubes is that they offer very low gain, these will favor best on a multiple setup like a La Figaro or Woo Audio setup. But you can still get a flavor of the "musicality" of these tubes, very warm, for a power tube. Gonna roll some bright preamp tubes to see what gives


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## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> So my very first impressions of the tubes is that they offer *very low gain*


They might pair well with higher-gain preamp tubes like 6C8G's that work with your 6F8G adapter.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 23, 2019)

oops
.


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## JediMa70

I'm a bit disappointed, maybe it's been my mistake or not, i bought these onese on ebay https://www.ebay.it/itm/283571425815 when I tested them both today, they have distortion, should i send them back?


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## JKDJedi

JediMa70 said:


> I'm a bit disappointed, maybe it's been my mistake or not, i bought these onese on ebay https://www.ebay.it/itm/283571425815 when I tested them both today, they have distortion, should i send them back?


If they have distortion then yes. I'd grab one of them NOS tubes, they're tough.


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## Xibipiio

JediMa70 said:


> I'm a bit disappointed, maybe it's been my mistake or not, i bought these onese on ebay https://www.ebay.it/itm/283571425815 when I tested them both today, they have distortion, should i send them back?



Are these 6SL7? If so, that’s a different tube than the 6SN7 and not a substitute in the DarkVoice.


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## Slade01

JediMa70 said:


> I'm a bit disappointed, maybe it's been my mistake or not, i bought these onese on ebay https://www.ebay.it/itm/283571425815 when I tested them both today, they have distortion, should i send them back?



JediMa70 - if you have a darkvoice amp...these tubes you bought are 6SL7, not a substitute for the 6SN7...maybe thats why you are getting distortion.


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## JediMa70

Well so it's my fault.. bad. I almost burned my darkvoice  here it's my post of few days ago https://www.head-fi.org/threads/alm...need-help-to-check-test.912917/#post-15122379 so to be safe i replaced the power AMP with a RCA 6080 and  I was planning to do the same with the other one, but I get confused about which are the ones that will work beside 6SN7 and where to find them at a reasonable price, I'm italy and it's more complicated to find them. I 'm just using ebay.. so any help is extremely appreciated


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## Slade01

JediMa70 said:


> Well so it's my fault.. bad. I almost burned my darkvoice  here it's my post of few days ago https://www.head-fi.org/threads/alm...need-help-to-check-test.912917/#post-15122379 so to be safe i replaced the power AMP with a RCA 6080 and  I was planning to do the same with the other one, but I get confused about which are the ones that will work beside 6SN7 and where to find them at a reasonable price, I'm italy and it's more complicated to find them. I 'm just using ebay.. so any help is extremely appreciated



Reading on this thread will help:  6SN7 Identification Guide  it has a alot of information to get started.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 23, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> They might pair well with higher-gain preamp tubes like 6C8G's that work with your 6F8G adapter.


 The 6C8G will play well with the Darkvoice?


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## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH seems to be gelliing well with the gold one. The 6C8G will play well with the Darkvoice?


If your Darkvoice is unmodded, then yes.  They do play well with the Darkvoice (same voltage requirements as the 6SN7 and 6F8G).  The only thing is that their amplification factor is 1.8x larger than that of the 6SN7/6F8G's, hence why I mentioned that they were higher gain.  I've used 6C8G's fine with my Tung-Sol 7236's.  I don't use mine much now because their higher amplification factor plus the higher gain from my Fitz-modded Darkvoice is a bit too much in the gain dept.  It seems that I'll have to mod my Darkvoice again.


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## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> If your Darkvoice is unmodded, then yes.  They do play well with the Darkvoice (same voltage requirements as the 6SN7 and 6F8G).  The only thing is that their amplification factor is 1.8x larger than that of the 6SN7/6F8G's, hence why I mentioned that they were higher gain.  I've used 6C8G's fine with my Tung-Sol 7236's.  I don't use mine much now because their higher amplification factor plus the higher gain from my Fitz-modded Darkvoice is a bit too much in the gain dept.  It seems that I'll have to mod my Darkvoice again.


I'll check them out, thanks.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 25, 2019)

I just noticed the last Tidal update on my PC turned off Exclusive Mode and Force volume. And that the volume level was at half. o.O Whole week wondering what the heck was wrong with my gear..I'm taking a break.


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## Towa (Aug 25, 2019)

So I just bought a bundle of different tubes for the DV from a seller on r/avexchange. this is what's coming;

Raytheon JAN 6080
GE 6080
Tung Sol 7236
GE 6AS7G
RCA 6SN7 (x2)
KenRad JAN-CHR-6SN7GT
TungSol JAN-CTL-6SN7GTA
Sylvania 6SN7WGTA
Hytron JAN-CHY-6SN7GT
RCA 6SN7 (smoked/grey glass)

  

Got all of these for $100... Did I do good? Any decent ones out of this lot I should try first once I receive? I already have a TS 7236, but all the others are new territory for me.


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## JKDJedi

Towa said:


> So I just bought a bundle of different tubes for the DV from a seller on r/avexchange. this is what's coming;
> 
> Raytheon JAN 6080
> GE 6080
> ...


Good start. Curious how all the JAN tubes you have compare to the grey glass.


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## JKDJedi (Aug 26, 2019)

Any idea what year this tube might be? The dates are rubbed off and can barely make out the two digit code it has, G5 or 33, what grabbed my attention was the old RCA logo before they changed it in the 50's, 60's?


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## sennfan83261 (Aug 27, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Any idea what year this tube might be? The dates are rubbed off and can barely make out the two digit code it has, G5 or 33, what grabbed my attention was the old RCA logo before they changed it in the 50's, 60's?


If "G5" is indicated on that 6SN7GT (it looks that way to me), then it is a private-brand non-OEM tube with a shipping date of June, 1945 (see "2. RCA DATE OF SHIPMENT" in the source below).  From 1936-1945, RCA tube date codes went by "Letter-Last Digit of the Year-E," where the "E" is indicative of an OEM shipment.  If the terminal "E" is missing, then it is a non-OEM shipment.  Hope this helps!

Source: http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf

EDIT: For old RCA tubes, the "G5" on your tube is the date code, lol.  No other date should be indicated thereon.


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## JKDJedi

I had a dual setup planned to share with you guys but that experiment didn't pan out, I had planned to roll a dual 6BL7s in the 6AS7 slot as mentioned in the 6AS7 thread. The Darkvoice might not be able to handle the 3amps this setup would pull ( vs the 2.5 amp 6as7 tubes draw from it) So a member suggested (6BL7 thread) to just roll a single tube in the 6AS7 slot) I have and am surprised this works. And sounds better than I expected. Does not get hot since it's only drawing 1.5 amps. Volume is now at 12 to 1 o'clock as you would suspect from the smaller push but no distortion or added hiss at all....very quiet.


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## volly

JKDJedi said:


> I had a dual setup planned to share with you guys but that experiment didn't pan out, I had planned to roll a dual 6BL7s in the 6AS7 slot as mentioned in the 6AS7 thread. The Darkvoice might not be able to handle the 3amps this setup would pull ( vs the 2.5 amp 6as7 tubes draw from it) So a member suggested (6BL7 thread) to just roll a single tube in the 6AS7 slot) I have and am surprised this works. And sounds better than I expected. Does not get hot since it's only drawing 1.5 amps. Volume is now at 12 to 1 o'clock as you would suspect from the smaller push but no distortion or added hiss at all....very quiet.


Very cool experiment bro, congrats on the sound! The tubes look clean aF!

I've now settle the the 6080WA JAN RAYTHEON NOS and a Tung Sol Dumont USA 6SN7GTB, very happy with the combo and I have a RCA 6080 to try out later but for now this is it but I might look at the 6BL7's a try! Thanks for sharing bro!


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## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> I had a dual setup planned to share with you guys but that experiment didn't pan out, I had planned to roll a dual 6BL7s in the 6AS7 slot as mentioned in the 6AS7 thread. The Darkvoice might not be able to handle the 3amps this setup would pull ( vs the 2.5 amp 6as7 tubes draw from it) So a member suggested (6BL7 thread) to just roll a single tube in the 6AS7 slot) I have and am surprised this works. And sounds better than I expected. Does not get hot since it's only drawing 1.5 amps. Volume is now at 12 to 1 o'clock as you would suspect from the smaller push but no distortion or added hiss at all....very quiet.



Thanks for trying that for us! 
I’ll definitely give it a shot, as I have a few 6SL7s around. I wonder how a 6BX7 would do in in 6AS7G slot?


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## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> Thanks for trying that for us!
> I’ll definitely give it a shot, as I have a few 6SL7s around. I wonder how a 6BX7 would do in in 6AS7G slot?


Not sure about those tubes, and still haven't given up on the dual setup, they messed up on my adapter from China, so currently talking to some dude in Bulgaria to have a custom one made for me.


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## Keno18

@JKDJedi, I think you had asked about using a turntable with the DV.  I just set up one with mine with a phono preamp and it sounds great. So yeah, it works.


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## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Great minds think alike, hehe.  Yeah, a more relaxed, warmer sound (slightly less treble) than the NU 6F8G round plates with the traditional Sylvania emphasis on the mids.  Still, I typically love Sylvania tubes and the Sylvania VT-99 is no exception, a wonderful tube imo.  With the RCA 6AS7G silver lettering/black plates, the soundstage and imaging are pretty awesome.  Some observations on this tube (and others):
> 
> https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/tubes/221750/6f8g-vt99-observations
> http://www.tubemaze.info/sylvania-6f8gvt-99-t-plates/



Would you happen to know if the VT-99 carries the same designation weight as a VT-231?  Meaning, is it just labeled that way to indicate military use but the same construction/production specs as regular 6F8Gs?


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## JKDJedi (Sep 4, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Would you happen to know if the VT-99 carries the same designation weight as a VT-231?  Meaning, is it just labeled that way to indicate military use but the same construction/production specs as regular 6F8Gs?


I was wondering the same...seems to be just that. A military designation. Read your question again... Your asking if these tubes are built different from the consumer versions..


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I was wondering the same...seems to be just that. A military designation. Read your question again... Your asking if these tubes are built different from the consumer versions..



Fascinating history of tubes.  So I came across something from Sylvania had akin to a newsletter that provided cross listings of military designations (e.g. VT labeling) to its consumer counterparts especially during the war times where commercial suppliers may have been called upon or needed to provide replacements at various locations in the country.  So I suppose the inference is that they are the same tube in construction and specifications.  I am not completely 100% on this of course, but right now, that is what the i'm led to believe so far.


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## Slade01 (Sep 4, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> I was wondering the same...seems to be just that. A military designation. Read your question again... Your asking if these tubes are built different from the consumer versions..



Yes, was questioning if VT tubes were build differently than consumer.  Based more of what I have come across, the VT is just another label, but same construction.  I guess I got caught up in the idea when I first read about military grade tubes with the 6080s, where the 6080W- variants are more rugged in construction and said to last longer, etc., so and that maybe true for those tubes, but not for the "VT" series.  So I get it in my head that anything military designated may or could be different in design.  But for the 6F8Gs and VT-99, they seem to be one and the same.


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## JKDJedi (Sep 4, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Yes, was questioning if VT tubes were build differently than consumer.  Based more of what I have come across, the VT is just another label, but same construction.  I guess I got caught up in the idea when I first read about military grade tubes with the 6080s, where the 6080W- variants are more rugged in construction and said to last longer, etc., so and that maybe true for those tubes, but not for the "VT" series.  So I get it in my head that anything military designated may or could be different in design.  But for the 6F8Gs and VT-99, they seem to be one and the same.


I think anything with a VT is just a label for the military. RCA for example, t(have a more rugged design which are the 5692.) their VT tubes are same as consumer tubes, probably the same across the board with all manufacturers.


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## sennfan83261 (Sep 4, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> I think anything with a VT is just a label for the military. RCA for example, t(have a more rugged design which are the 5692.) their VT tubes are same as consumer tubes, probably the same across the board with all manufacturers.


This.  From looking at the 6SN7 reference thread, only JAN and 6SN7W variants have been mentioned to be potentially different from that of their civilian counterparts, the former being stress tested (just a small batch of the lot though) and the latter supposedly having a 10,000hr life (debatable).  Then again, with Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases, I've seen complaints [TubeMaze.info] about how quickly the user's supposedly NOS tubes fizzed out on them.  Makes me wonder about the reliability of these tubes for mission critical operations back in the day (hello transistors!).  Then again, the ones on the market could simply be rejects found in a dusty warehouse somewhere and marked up and advertised as NOS, rugged military-grade tubes when offered for sale.

Bottomline: who knows?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## JKDJedi

So I finally got the nerve to grab a GEC tube, a pair actually, I'll post thoughts on the tube when they get in.


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## JKDJedi

A great write up if I ever read one, ------> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


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## volly

JKDJedi said:


> A great write up if I ever read one, ------> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


Good find mate, definitely worth a read!


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## JKDJedi (Sep 8, 2019)

Found a pair of Fankentubes! if the hype is true (below)...so stoked. This from Bcowen

https://www.head-fi.org/members/bcowen.489394/

"Powerful bass, dynamic and punchy, a midrange that's *just* right, beautiful treble, the rhythmic drive of a Foton. But there are two things that are remarkable with this tube: imaging (or maybe soundstaging) that locates each performer or instrument in its own acoustic space. You can pick out the individual voice in a chorus and the 3rd violin from center in an orchestra. And you hear the space surrounding them. I haven't heard this space-reality thing with headphones before. Not even close. And then there's the tone. Holy friggin' crap. Tone. The depth of harmonics and the full fleshing out of every resonance and micro-detail in the note. If you're a rocker or metalhead and love the sound of an electric guitar or bass, you'll turn into one great big goosebump with this tube in the Lyr. I even listened to some jazz...and liked it. That's never happened before either. I rarely gush on a tube because a lot has to do with personal preference and system synergy, so I won't gush over this one. I'll just say that even after several reality checks swapping a Foton or WH D back in for comparisons that the Frankentube is now my personal reference and owns the #1 spot by a pretty wide margin".

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101

And hoping it plays well with the Darkvoice, I'll chime in with thoughts on the tube.


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## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Great minds think alike, hehe.  Yeah, a more relaxed, warmer sound (slightly less treble) than the NU 6F8G round plates with the traditional Sylvania emphasis on the mids.  Still, I typically love Sylvania tubes and the Sylvania VT-99 is no exception, a wonderful tube imo.  With the RCA 6AS7G silver lettering/black plates, the soundstage and imaging are pretty awesome.  Some observations on this tube (and others):
> 
> https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/tubes/221750/6f8g-vt99-observations
> http://www.tubemaze.info/sylvania-6f8gvt-99-t-plates/



Senn - I wanted to thank you for linking to the observations and with writing up about these.  I gave both the 6f8g and 6c8g tubes a go and I wanted to add that between you and what was mentioned in the links seem to be par for the course for what these brands bring to the table in terms of sound.  There is not much information out there (sound impressions wise) about these, these are a good starting point for what you have posted.  I'm currently running the RCA 6F8G as my current all around-er right now - it is really really good.  This is the kind of sound I am after.   Thank you so much.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Found a pair of Fankentubes! if the hype is true (below)...so stoked. This from Bcowen
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/members/bcowen.489394/
> 
> ...



Hey - saw what happened on the other thread - were you planning on running the 7N7s with a dual adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 11, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Hey - saw what happened on the other thread - were you planning on running the 7N7s with a dual adapter?


No, not needed for the 6SN7 slot. (was hoping the pair were two Franken tubes but just the one qualifys) but you do need an adapter for the 7N7.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> No, not needed for the 6SN7 slot. (was hoping the pair were two Franken tubes but just the one qualifys) but you do need an adapter for the 7N7.



Yeah i saw the pics. What a bummer.  Hope your luck gets better with the incoming ones!


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 11, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Yeah i saw the pics. What a bummer.  Hope your luck gets better with the incoming ones!


lol...the life of a high roller.., seems like one of them is a keeper (the Franken founder just confirmed). The other tube coming in is a GE short bottle, so I think I'm gonna hold off on getting anymore 7N7s till the adapter comes in (or will try not to anyway...), Tubes play differently on different amps so not popping any champagne tonight.


----------



## Keno18

Has anyone tried a 12ax7 in the DV? I found a great sounding  tube but the adapter costs more than the tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Has anyone tried a 12ax7 in the DV? I found a great sounding  tube but the adapter costs more than the tube.


Should work, rolling a 12AT7 right now. Adapters go for $11 from Hong Kong.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Should work, rolling a 12AT7 right now. Adapters go for $11 from Hong Kong.


Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 19, 2019)

Adapter in.... Rolling begins..... 7N7 sounds pretty good. Healing by Groove Armada slams hard. Seems to be a good mix (Philco 7N7) with Tung Sol 7236. So here's the weird thing, just from this quick rolling session, the GE sounds better to my ears. Same bass slam but cleaner up top in the mid highs... I was told this would be opposite between the tall and small 7N7 tubes. And oh wow...the ugliest tube here, the JAN Sylvania... Winner, lol, yeah I'm tube rolling live here folks, 
Soon as I hit play...I jumped, what da heck!? So this is just my initial quick hit n run rolling session, see how these guys settle down.
Edit: The one thing that stands out the most with the 7N7 tubes collectively ..is the HUGE headroom space, especially with MASTER recordings (Tidal) edit: the space gets larger with the new Amazon HD Player


----------



## sennfan83261 (Sep 16, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Senn - I wanted to thank you for linking to the observations and with writing up about these.  I gave both the 6f8g and 6c8g tubes a go and I wanted to add that between you and what was mentioned in the links seem to be par for the course for what these brands bring to the table in terms of sound.  There is not much information out there (sound impressions wise) about these, these are a good starting point for what you have posted.  I'm currently running the RCA 6F8G as my current all around-er right now - it is really really good.  This is the kind of sound I am after.   Thank you so much.


Hey, no problems.  I'm happy to share what I'm able to dig up since I'm learning just like the rest of you guys; I started on my tube journey this past March with the purchase of my Darkvoice.  Yes, I have to agree that the RCA 6F8G is a really, really nice tube and is pretty affordable right now.  Except for the VT-99 round plate Tung-Sols, the 6F8G's are really good bangs for your buck.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Hey, no problems.  I'm happy to share what I'm able to dig up since I'm learning just like the rest of you guys; I started on my tube journey this past March with the purchase of my Darkvoice.  Yes, I have to agree that the RCA 6F8G is a really, really nice tube and is pretty affordable right now.  Except for the VT-99 round plate Tung-Sols, the 6F8G's are really good bangs for your buck.



I had gotten a Radiocoin 6F8G - which also has really awesome sound.  There is not much information on this brand - but I did read somewhere here that this could be re-branded TungSol 6F8G.  Do you or anyone have any information to verify that, or how could you tell if this is really the case?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slightly off topic..but since I spend most of my time here I'd thought I share this with you guys, Amazon HD rolled out sometime this week and sounds just as good as Tidal Masters, for $5 less! No MQA resampling needed. And 90 day free trial. https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20869526/amazon-music-hd-lossless-flac-tier-spotify-apple


----------



## wwmhf

Without tubes, this is very off topic, but good information! Thanks


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Adapter in.... Rolling begins..... 7N7 sounds pretty good. Healing by Groove Armada slams hard. Seems to be a good mix (Philco 7N7) with Tung Sol 7236. So here's the weird thing, just from this quick rolling session, the GE sounds better to my ears. Same bass slam but cleaner up top in the mid highs... I was told this would be opposite between the tall and small 7N7 tubes. And oh wow...the ugliest tube here, the JAN Sylvania... Winner, lol, yeah I'm tube rolling live here folks,
> Soon as I hit play...I jumped, what da heck!? So this is just my initial quick hit n run rolling session, see how these guys settle down.
> Edit: The one thing that stands out the most with the 7N7 tubes collectively ..is the HUGE headroom space, especially with MASTER recordings (Tidal)



It looks like that you have some good stuffs like those 7N7 with a lot chrome.


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> It looks like that you have some good stuffs like those 7N7 with a lot chrome.


Thanks, the last tube surprised me the most, the Headphonenus Supremeus guys are telling me they're all Sylvanias. And when I get a new tube in I always swear it's the next best thing since ice cream, so usually takes a week for me to settle in how they really sound, if that makes sense. I will say this, it's very rare to find a bad Sylvania tube, very rare, and these sound really good, was told by that Tyco Dogg guy on YouTube to look out for them a few months back but really didn't pay attention to that much, until I read the post about the Franken tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I had gotten a Radiocoin 6F8G - which also has really awesome sound.  There is not much information on this brand - but I did read somewhere here that this could be re-branded TungSol 6F8G.  Do you or anyone have any information to verify that, or how could you tell if this is really the case?


Hows the radiocoin compare to your other tube?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Hows the radiocoin compare to your other tube?



Primarily - the RCA is warmer, and more laid back sounding, smooth - awesome for vocals.  Slower bass.  Very nice  wide sound stage, and definitely not fatiguing.  The Radiocoin is not warmer, but more crisp, cleaner, has more attack but not in a fatiguing way.  Bass is faster/tighter.  Radiocoin has more that sparkle sound - more holographic with a touch better in detail retrieval.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 20, 2019)

Rolling a fattie this weekend ... Stoked. #BadBoys #Sylvania


----------



## JKDJedi

I just had an *Epiphany.... *The Sylvania 6080 & Sylvania 7236 are the same tube!! They're almost carbon copy on build and sound... smh wow...


----------



## wwmhf

Some Sylvania 7236 are not 7236 at all


----------



## JKDJedi

*Sunday Rolling (yeah I missed the games) 
*
_A quick summary..._

(Rolled with WINGED "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G)

(Fedelio X2 headphones)

A Moon Shaped Pool - Radiohead 

( Streamed off Amazon HD Player)

Sylvania Chrome Dome 6SN7GT 1948

"Sweet vocals, lovely low sub bass, with just the right amount of highs.  Nice warm tube".

Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7GT 1952

"Vocals are transparent (readily understood).. bass almost on par to the Chrome Domes with a touch more control". 

Tung Sol "Tall Boy" 6SN7GTB  HR3? (Date Unknown..u tell me!) 

"Nice stage presence, great balance between left right and middle channels". 

Philco Loctal 7N7 1950

"Large headroom,  realistic vocals, bass guitar sublime. Great instrument separation, nice clang to the cymbals".

Thoughts:  The one tube that really surprised me was the Tung Sol, I didn't think it would hold up like it did in this comparison group, I won't say which one was my favorite, (you can tell in the descriptions).


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> *Sunday Rolling (yeah I missed the games)
> *
> _A quick summary..._
> 
> ...



Is that Philco 7N7 the Frankie?  How did the regular run of the mill 7N7s sound?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Is that Philco 7N7 the Frankie?  How did the regular run of the mill 7N7s sound?


Yes, it's the Frankie, and the others were not to far behind it, minor differences, in fact I liked them at first over the Frankie, only the monster is slowly growing on me, the GE short bottle 7N7 (which I'm told is really a Sylvania) sounds really good, you can find them about $13 o(NOS)or less used, there's a group of three loctal tubes, one of them a 7n7, on sale at eBay for $3, not bad if you just want a taste of 7N7.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Yes, it's the Frankie, and the others were not to far behind it, minor differences, in fact I liked them at first over the Frankie, only the monster is slowly growing on me, the GE short bottle 7N7 (which I'm told is really a Sylvania) sounds really good, you can find them about $13 o(NOS)or less used, there's a group of three loctal tubes, one of them a 7n7, on sale at eBay for $3, not bad if you just want a taste of 7N7.



Will have to think about it -- its very tempting.  This hobby - y'all gonna make me broke.  Lol.  This amp is on hiatus right now as it burns in a Ken-Rad 6C8G tube right now.  It's got a wicked left channel hum right now.  It's crazy as i'm still trying to learn about the tube construction/components.   I can say for the first time, I definitively see actual "round plates" with this one being a clear top.  Even with the hum - the music was sounding really lively and fun.  I see a lot of promise in this one.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Will have to think about it -- its very tempting.  This hobby - y'all gonna make me broke.  Lol.  This amp is on hiatus right now as it burns in a Ken-Rad 6C8G tube right now.  It's got a wicked left channel hum right now.  It's crazy as i'm still trying to learn about the tube construction/components.   I can say for the first time, I definitively see actual "round plates" with this one being a clear top.  Even with the hum - the music was sounding really lively and fun.  I see a lot of promise in this one.


Beautiful, please chime in with your thoughts on that tube, been watching one for a few days.


----------



## Slade01 (Sep 24, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Beautiful, please chime in with your thoughts on that tube, been watching one for a few days.



I certainly will.  In the meantime, because impressions are few and far inbetween - I have this cached saved from tubemaze.com on this very tube.  I'll see if I agree with them or not....

(tubemaze.com - ken-rad 6C8G review) -- _"Nice! Another winner from Ken-Rad. Reminds me of their 5814 tube, but with bigger soundstage. Other properties, push this tube outside of the usual suspects – creamy sound, huge sound stage, superb transparency and absolutely fantastic mids, and bass, bass and more bass. The one that I have is the military version of the tube and VT-163 and it truly shows in the amount of details. The sound is very different compared to my other favorite RCA 6C8G – but where RCA wins in delicacy, Ken-Rad wins in presence. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED"_


----------



## cddc

wwmhf said:


> Some Sylvania 7236 are not 7236 at all



Need some clarification here...LOL...can you post some pics on real Sylvania 7236 and fake Sylvania 7236? Just curious to know. Thanks a lot!


----------



## cddc (Sep 24, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling a fattie this weekend ... Stoked. #BadBoys #Sylvania




Dude, so you got 2 BB's and 1 Chrome Dome and 5998s?

You really spent awesome bucks on tubes....


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Should work, rolling a 12AT7 right now. Adapters go for $11 from Hong Kong.




12AT7 and 12AX7 have higher gains than 12AU7 does. Not drop in replacement for 12AU7. May sound good or bad, depending on the circuit.


----------



## cddc (Sep 24, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Will have to think about it -- its very tempting.  This hobby - y'all gonna make me broke.  Lol.  This amp is on hiatus right now as it burns in a Ken-Rad 6C8G tube right now.  It's got a wicked left channel hum right now.  It's crazy as i'm still trying to learn about the tube construction/components.   I can say for the first time, I definitively see actual "round plates" with this one being a clear top.  Even with the hum - the music was sounding really lively and fun.  I see a lot of promise in this one.





6f8g (or similarly 6c8g) is more prone to microphonics/hums, that's why they developed the successor 6SN7, which is basically a 6f8g wrapped in a smaller glass bottle. That's what I read. 

Some tube guru here (can't remember Rob or Ken) said 6f8g and 6SN7 sound the same.

I haven't tried a 6f8g/6c8g tube so far, so can't confirm if it's true.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Dude, so you got 2 BB's and 1 Chrome Dome and 5998s?
> 
> You really spent awesome bucks on tubes....


Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side... It's a deep hole ..


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> 6f8g (or similarly 6c8g) is more prone to microphonics/hums, that's why they developed the successor 6SN7, which is basically a 6f8g wrapped in a smaller glass bottle. That's what I read.
> 
> Some tube guru here (can't remember Rob or Ken) said 6f8g and 6SN7 sound the same.
> 
> I haven't tried a 6f8g/6c8g tube so far, so can't confirm if it's true.


I believe the CF8G have a slightly higher gain so the sound may sound the same but somewhat boosted, so all the good things x 1.8 , for the same price. The one CF8G tube I have sounds distinct from my other tubes, and an eye catcher. Almost like a different amp is being played.


----------



## cddc (Sep 24, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side... It's a deep hole ..


 
Tube rolling is very addictive...I can feel you ... 

Especially if it's coming from the Dark Side Jedi ...


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I believe the CF8G have a slightly higher gain so the sound may sound the same but somewhat boosted, so all the good things x 1.8 , for the same price. The one CF8G tube I have sounds distinct from my other tubes, and an eye catcher. Almost like a different amp is being played.




You are correct, 6c8g has higher gain, so do 12AT7 and 12AX7. 

The funny thing is that I asked multiple times if it's okay to try some higher gain tubes in the BHC thread, and EVERY TIME I got a completely definitive NO  - gurus there said a higher gain from the driver tube will distort the plate voltages on power tube, so it won't necessarily boost volume, but rather will lead to distortion or failure (in the 12AX7 case) because power tube now works under abnormal voltages. 

So I have never tried any higher gain driver tubes so far. Maybe someday I will stick in a 12AT7/12AX7 to see how it goes...


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> 6f8g (or similarly 6c8g) is more prone to microphonics/hums, that's why they developed the successor 6SN7, which is basically a 6f8g wrapped in a smaller glass bottle. That's what I read.
> 
> Some tube guru here (can't remember Rob or Ken) said 6f8g and 6SN7 sound the same.
> 
> I haven't tried a 6f8g/6c8g tube so far, so can't confirm if it's true.



Certainly some of them will sound  the same.  I mean they are not unlike each other, like cousins if you will.  The Ken Rad 6C8G i have now carries that same well known bass extension that the ken rad black glass is known for.


JKDJedi said:


> I believe the CF8G have a slightly higher gain so the sound may sound the same but somewhat boosted, so all the good things x 1.8 , for the same price. The one CF8G tube I have sounds distinct from my other tubes, and an eye catcher. Almost like a different amp is being played.



You said it very well.  It's like a different amp is being played.  My experience so far with 6F8G/6C8G - that first and foremost, it happens to capture that sound ive sought after with soundstage/warmth/lush/musicality.  That being said, 6C8Gs with higher gain, provides another distinct sound.  If I am comparing the KenRad 6C8G with the RCA 6F8G (warmer, more laid back, lush and smooth vocals, more relaxed bass),  the KenRad is more neutral, a little faster, (signature ken-rad bass), notes are crisp and clear - but also adding a dirty/muddy/distortion at just all the right places in a very complementary way, but still musical, engaging.  Its essentially different takes on the music but the presentation in each case works in a way that you could be satisfied.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> You are correct, 6c8g has higher gain, so do 12AT7 and 12AX7.
> 
> The funny thing is that I asked multiple times if it's okay to try some higher gain tubes in the BHC thread, and EVERY TIME I got a completely definitive NO  - gurus there said a higher gain from the driver tube will distort the plate voltages on power tube, so it won't necessarily boost volume, but rather will lead to distortion or failure (in the 12AX7 case) because power tube now works under abnormal voltages.
> 
> So I have never tried any higher gain driver tubes so far. Maybe someday I will stick in a 12AT7/12AX7 to see how it goes...


Yup there is some distortion, especially in the vocals, at higher volumes, and I only rolled this tube for experiment sake, it was in a box of dusted tubes given to me to try out. The 12au7 might be the better way to go.


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> I believe the CF8G have a slightly higher gain so the sound may sound the same but somewhat boosted, so all the good things x 1.8 , for the same price. The one CF8G tube I have sounds distinct from my other tubes, and an eye catcher. Almost like a different amp is being played.


The amplification factor of the 6SN7 is spec'd to be exactly the same as the 6F8G (AF = 20).  For 6C8G's, their amplification factor (AF = 36) is noticeably higher than the other two.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> The amplification factor of the 6SN7 is spec'd to be exactly the same as the 6F8G (AF = 20).  For 6C8G's, their amplification factor (AF = 36) is noticeably higher than the other two.


Wow...crazy, cause the 6F8 G is huge sounding tube, i got your last post about it wrong then, cool beans.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> The amplification factor of the 6SN7 is spec'd to be exactly the same as the 6F8G (AF = 20).  For 6C8G's, their amplification factor (AF = 36) is noticeably higher than the other two.



Do the 6C8Gs consequently have a larger voltage draw and is it safe for the darkvoice with that Amp factor?


----------



## sennfan83261

Slade01 said:


> Do the 6C8Gs consequently have a larger voltage draw and is it safe for the darkvoice with that Amp factor?


Not quite, based on your Ken-Rad 6C8G's, the 6C8G requires the same heater voltage as the 6SN7's (6.3V) but requires half the heater current of the 6SN7's (300mA vs. 600mA).


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Not quite, based on your Ken-Rad 6C8G's, the 6C8G requires the same heater voltage as the 6SN7's (6.3V) but requires half the heater current of the 6SN7's (300mA vs. 600mA).



Thanks.  The reason I ask - I had weird and slight scare because i took a pause from listening to the darkvoice this morning (from listening with that ken rad 6c8g.)  When I turned the amp on and started playing music again - it was only playing on one channel - one side of my headphones.  I quickly unplugged my headphones thinking maybe I loosened the cable, but the it was fine when I plugged in (the 6xx) to another source.  Plugged it back into the DV and I hear all sorts of cracking and popping and still only playing on one channel.  So i unplugged my 6xx and swapped out the tubes (and different cheap headphones), and it was still happening.  I let it cool down, cleaned all the connections and such, plugged everything back in - put back a 6F8G (wondering about the 6C8G voltage draw) and if that could have affected it, but maybe its a fluke, because the amp is working normally again.  Thanks for the information.  

All im thinking now is - do I need to save up for another darkvoice if this one ever craps out on me all of a sudden, or what is a logical tube amp upgrade that can utilize 6SN7/6AS7 tubes?  It's crazy though, but this amp has given back to me in spades.


----------



## sennfan83261

Slade01 said:


> Thanks.  The reason I ask - I had weird and slight scare because i took a pause from listening to the darkvoice this morning (from listening with that ken rad 6c8g.)  When I turned the amp on and started playing music again - it was only playing on one channel - one side of my headphones.  I quickly unplugged my headphones thinking maybe I loosened the cable, but the it was fine when I plugged in (the 6xx) to another source.  Plugged it back into the DV and I hear all sorts of cracking and popping and still only playing on one channel.  So i unplugged my 6xx and swapped out the tubes (and different cheap headphones), and it was still happening.  I let it cool down, cleaned all the connections and such, plugged everything back in - put back a 6F8G (wondering about the 6C8G voltage draw) and if that could have affected it, but maybe its a fluke, because the amp is working normally again.  Thanks for the information.


Ah yes, the snap, crackle, and pop that made me fear that the DV336 killed my HD6XX.  Based on my limited experience, this happened with my Sylvania VT-99 (6F8G) and a NOS RCA '40s grey glass 6SN7GT.  On the two occasions it happened with the VT-99, it was due to me plugging in my headphones ~2 mins after powering up the amp.  With the NOS RCA, it was due to a bad tube (the arcing lights when turning the volume up and down looked pretty before I took that tube out) .  Thereafter, I let the amp warm up ~10 minutes prior to plugging my cans into those old tubes.  I read elsewhere that 6SN7GTA's and -GTB's should require less of a warm-up time.  As for my HD6XX, they appear to fine (*knock on wood*).  But yeah, the DV really make these cans sing.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Ah yes, the snap, crackle, and pop that made me fear that the DV336 killed my HD6XX.  Based on my limited experience, this happened with my Sylvania VT-99 (6F8G) and a NOS RCA '40s grey glass 6SN7GT.  On the two occasions it happened with the VT-99, it was due to me plugging in my headphones ~2 mins after powering up the amp.  With the NOS RCA, it was due to a bad tube (the arcing lights when turning the volume up and down looked pretty before I took that tube out) .  Thereafter, I let the amp warm up ~10 minutes prior to plugging my cans into those old tubes.  I read elsewhere that 6SN7GTA's and -GTB's should require less of a warm-up time.  As for my HD6XX, they appear to fine (*knock on wood*).  But yeah, the DV really make these cans sing.



Jesus. EXACTLY - I thought for sure my 6XX was toast and I'm still a little paranoid now with some PTSD to plug my headphones in too soon or to roll tubes right now as I dont want to mess with the mojo for the moment.   Ive never had an issue, ive actually always left my headphones plugged in when turning it on off.  That is no longer going to be the case.  It was strange because it was giving me the rice krispies treatment snap crackling popping erratically even as i just touched the side of the dark voice unit when happening.  Extra careful moving forward....


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Jesus. EXACTLY - I thought for sure my 6XX was toast and I'm still a little paranoid now with some PTSD to plug my headphones in too soon or to roll tubes right now as I dont want to mess with the mojo for the moment.   Ive never had an issue, ive actually always left my headphones plugged in when turning it on off.  That is no longer going to be the case.  It was strange because it was giving me the rice krispies treatment snap crackling popping erratically even as i just touched the side of the dark voice unit when happening.  Extra careful moving forward....


These tubes need some TLC, I found out an occasional cleaning of the pins helps out. I had my first arc of the tube last weekend and thought i destroyed my HD6XX the same,  I was quick swapping/rolling preamp tubes and my guess some current was still in there and on restart... *POP!! *


----------



## cddc

Je...you guys scared me off with all these Crash! Boom! Bang! things.

Why so much arcing and popping recently...

I think I should hold off tube rolling temporarily until the safety god arrives...


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> Je...you guys scared me off with all these Crash! Boom! Bang! things.
> 
> Why so much arcing and popping recently...
> 
> I think I should hold off tube rolling temporarily until the safety god arrives...


U can use a couple of 6Bl7/6bx7 without problem on YOUR amp.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> U can use a couple of 6Bl7/6bx7 without problem on YOUR amp.



Thank a lot for the recommendation, mate!

My initial hunch is that I might not be able to use 2*6BL7 in my BHC, because 2*6BL7 + 1*6SN7 = 2*1.5A + 0.6A = 3.6A current pull is exceeding the 3.5A limit of my PT3 power transformer. 

Besides, I haven't really looked into 6BL7 tubes yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Je...you guys scared me off with all these Crash! Boom! Bang! things.
> 
> Why so much arcing and popping recently...
> 
> I think I should hold off tube rolling temporarily until the safety god arrives...





cddc said:


> Thank a lot for the recommendation, mate!
> 
> My initial hunch is that I might not be able to use 2*6BL7 in my BHC, because 2*6BL7 + 1*6SN7 = 2*1.5A + 0.6A = 3.6A current pull is exceeding the 3.5A limit of my PT3 power transformer.
> 
> Besides, I haven't really looked into 6BL7 tubes yet.


Not worth the bother, get a nice 6as7g, 7236, or 5998. Done.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Not worth the bother, get a nice 6as7g, 7236, or 5998. Done.



Sorry to hear your bad experience on 6BL7, buddy. On the 6080/6AS7G power tube side, there're really not too many good ones to choose from. The 6SN7/12AU7 driver tube is totally different, so many good ones and so many opinions, I am kinda getting lost but still exploring.


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> Thank a lot for the recommendation, mate!
> 
> My initial hunch is that I might not be able to use 2*6BL7 in my BHC, because 2*6BL7 + 1*6SN7 = 2*1.5A + 0.6A = 3.6A current pull is exceeding the 3.5A limit of my PT3 power transformer.
> 
> Besides, I haven't really looked into 6BL7 tubes yet.


Oh, yes, I did use the 12AU7s when I was playing with the twin 6BL7s on the BHC. You have to shield the transformer noise or use other way to avoid )). Moreover, I have to chose the correct pair of 6BL7s otherwise the results were no good. 

Sorry, I understand this is not the BHC thread.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Sorry to hear your bad experience on 6BL7, buddy. On the 6080/6AS7G power tube side, there're really not too many good ones to choose from. The 6SN7/12AU7 driver tube is totally different, so many good ones and so many opinions, I am kinda getting lost but still exploring.


 This threads favorite is the Tung SOl 7236, 12au7, hear a lot of good things about the Genalex Gold Lion,  and as far as 6SN7 tubes, any Tung Sol, Sylvania, RCA in the late 40's lower 50's....win.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Oh, yes, I did use the 12AU7s when I was playing with the twin 6BL7s on the BHC. You have to shield the transformer noise or use other way to avoid )). Moreover, I have to chose the correct pair of 6BL7s otherwise the results were no good.
> 
> Sorry, I understand this is not the BHC thread.




It's a close cousin to DV336, same tubes (I'm pretty sure) and same (?) OTL structure. That's why I am here...LOL 

Talking about tubes here is okay, I think

I will spend some time to look into 6BL7 tubes


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> This threads favorite is the Tung SOl 7236, 12au7, hear a lot of good things about the Genalex Gold Lion,  and as far as 6SN7 tubes, any Tung Sol, Sylvania, RCA in the late 40's lower 50's....win.



I got TS7236 long time ago, but yet to hear a 421A or 5998, I know they are really good, but their prices are just crazy...wait to see if there is some good opportunity to grab one. My main focus recently is on 6SN7 tubes, so many good ones...LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I got TS7236 long time ago, but yet to hear a 421A or 5998, I know they are really good, but their prices are just crazy...wait to see if there is some good opportunity to grab one. My main focus recently is on 6SN7 tubes, so many good ones...LOL


And you got me interested in the 12Au7 now.... Lol, thanks! If you see a 6SN7 you think you might like post it up here for our 2 cents.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> And you got me interested in the 12Au7 now.... Lol, thanks! If you see a 6SN7 you think you might like post it up here for our 2 cents.



Will do. To be honest, there're some good 12AU7s, like Telefunken/Mullard, but I think I prefer 6SN7 to 12AU7 in general, so don't waste too much of your time on 12AU7s IMHO.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2019)

cddc said:


> Will do. To be honest, there're some good 12AU7s, like Telefunken/Mullard, but I think I prefer 6SN7 to 12AU7 in general, so don't waste too much of your time on 12AU7s IMHO.


You just saved me some $$$ thanks. oh, and look for  RCA grey glass, they're not that expensive but sound expensive... what tubes do you have?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2019)

Not the momma...


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-6N7S-6H7C-6N7GT-FOTON-TUBE-TUBES-1953-YEAR-RARE/152585331654  <--- these are rare and might be worth grabbing.. just got wind about it on the 6SN7 thread



How are you suggesting these be used in a DarkVoice? They aren’t equivalent to 6sn7g or 6as7 that I know of.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> How are you suggesting these be used in a DarkVoice? They aren’t equivalent to 6sn7g or 6as7 that I know of.


Oh oh .. hmmm, I'd have to take a closer look at that, thanks. Yeah, that was a huge misread on my part, thanks for the heads up, post deleted. I searched for 6SN7GT Foton on eBay and it lead me to that listing, the confusion is that it seems the 6N8S is the Russian equivalent to the 6SN7GT.. need to look deeper into that, I read it's a good bang for your buck tube.


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> Oh oh .. hmmm, I'd have to take a closer look at that, thanks. Yeah, that was a huge misread on my part, thanks for the heads up, post deleted. I searched for 6SN7GT Foton on eBay and it lead me to that listing, the confusion is that it seems the 6N8S is the Russian equivalent to the 6SN7GT.. need to look deeper into that, I read it's a good bang for your buck tube.



Tube designations can make your head spin! Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## cddc (Sep 26, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> You just saved me some $$$ thanks. oh, and look for  RCA grey glass, they're not that expensive but sound expensive... what tubes do you have?




You're very welcome, mate! I do have RCA grey glass, since it's not been cleaned I haven't had a listen on it yet. Hopefully will have a listen to it shortly and will report back. I also got some other 6SN7 tubes, CBS GTB, GE GTA/GTB, Good Boy, TS GT/GTB, Brimar GT, Syl GT/GTA/GTB, etc.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Ah yes, the snap, crackle, and pop that made me fear that the DV336 killed my HD6XX.  Based on my limited experience, this happened with my Sylvania VT-99 (6F8G) and a NOS RCA '40s grey glass 6SN7GT.  On the two occasions it happened with the VT-99, it was due to me plugging in my headphones ~2 mins after powering up the amp.  With the NOS RCA, it was due to a bad tube (the arcing lights when turning the volume up and down looked pretty before I took that tube out) .  Thereafter, I let the amp warm up ~10 minutes prior to plugging my cans into those old tubes.  I read elsewhere that 6SN7GTA's and -GTB's should require less of a warm-up time.  As for my HD6XX, they appear to fine (*knock on wood*).  But yeah, the DV really make these cans sing.



So I think i found the culprit -- a combination of tubes going bad causing my issues.  Mainly it was the power tube going bad?  Because I plugged in three others (TS 7236, JAN RCA 6AS7, 6H13C) and i no longer have issues -- well i also tried plugging in that radiocoin 68FG thinking it was the adapter.  The adapter is fine -- but that tube started rattling and then i see this when i turn it upside down (like a loose glass shard) see below.  Anyone know maybe this is from the base part that I cant see ?  It's hard to tell where it came from.  Anyways, two tubes scratched.  RIP.  Better the tubes than the amp -- or my damn headphones!!!


----------



## cddc

I remember I read somewhere before that glass shard inside tubes could happen during the manufacturing process, thou not so often, but it's OK as glass is non-conductor, so it shouldn't short anything.

Just make sure to land it on the base where there is no metal around it.


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> I remember I read somewhere before that glass shard inside tubes could happen during the manufacturing process, thou not so often, but it's OK as glass is non-conductor, so it shouldn't short anything.
> 
> Just make sure to land it on the base where there is no metal around it.



Good point -- I'll have to keep that in mind, thanks.  Granted, i cant see down to the bottom of the base since its chromed out.  But also, i tried that tube against a working power tube and its causing snap/crackle too, though not as bad as the power tube that crapped out on me.  I came to the amateur conclusion that they are not worth it.

Maybe my solid state amp did it.  It hasn't received any play since the DV.  I dug it back out of the box again today to have something working until i figured it all out.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Good point -- I'll have to keep that in mind, thanks.  Granted, i cant see down to the bottom of the base since its chromed out.  But also, i tried that tube against a working power tube and its causing snap/crackle too, though not as bad as the power tube that crapped out on me.  I came to the amateur conclusion that they are not worth it.
> 
> Maybe my solid state amp did it.  It hasn't received any play since the DV.  I dug it back out of the box again today to have something working until i figured it all out.


lol! I feel the frustraTION.. Could be just the pins are dirty, had snap crackle pop going on with the Tung Sol 7236 and almost tossed it thinking I had a dud.. after some psts on the 6AS7g thread I was talked into tjust cleaning, scraping, the pins at the bottom, that did the trick for me, last resort copy and pasted from @cddc post on that thread " if cleansing the pins does not solve the problem, you can try reflowing the solder joints by heating up the pins with a soldering ion - be careful not to burn the plastic tube base thou".


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> lol! I feel the frustraTION.. Could be just the pins are dirty, had snap crackle pop going on with the Tung Sol 7236 and almost tossed it thinking I had a dud.. after some psts on the 6AS7g thread I was talked into tjust cleaning, scraping, the pins at the bottom, that did the trick for me, last resort copy and pasted from @cddc post on that thread " if cleansing the pins does not solve the problem, you can try reflowing the solder joints by heating up the pins with a soldering ion - be careful not to burn the plastic tube base thou".



Really?  Is that possible being that my power tube has been in my amp and in use for several weeks with no issue?   I chalked it up because I bought that tube from a seller I have not previously bought from (I usually just get from trusted sources) and figured maybe he just sold be a bum tube, or one that was just happen to give out for some reason.  But yeah, I guess I should give the pins a scrubbing next time just for the hell of it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 27, 2019)

1950's Marconi 6CG7 Black Plate Tube ...just got the adapter.. (waiting on it for 2 weeks) and on initial listen will chalk this one up as another super airy tube.. up there with the 7n7 - 6F8G tubes.. might have a comparison write up this weekend


----------



## wwmhf

Looking forward to you write up about this tube....


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> 1950's Marconi 6CG7 Black Plate Tube ...just got the adapter.. (waiting on it for 2 weeks) and on initial listen will chalk this one up as another super airy tube.. up there with the 7n7 - 6F8G tubes.. might have a comparison write up this weekend


Hi sorry to jump in ,newbie I just bought a used DarkVoice 336se   not received yet 
and I've just bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB NOS (1 spare) upgrade 
Can you please suggest the other missing valve to add to complete I'm using Sennheiser  HD650 headphones , indeed to brighten them up top end  I'm lost with all the names codes etc I need help
Please ,What can u say I'm  old ,regards and  hi to all from SouthWales


----------



## JKDJedi

Taffy the tramp said:


> Hi sorry to jump in ,newbie I just bought a used DarkVoice 336se   not received yet
> and I've just bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB NOS (1 spare) upgrade
> Can you please suggest the other missing valve to add to complete I'm using Sennheiser  HD650 headphones , indeed to brighten them up top end  I'm lost with all the names codes etc I need help
> Please ,What can u say I'm  old ,regards and  hi to all from SouthWales


Sylvania 7236 plays really well with the Tung Sol and Sennheiser headphones.


----------



## Slade01

Taffy the tramp said:


> Hi sorry to jump in ,newbie I just bought a used DarkVoice 336se   not received yet
> and I've just bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB NOS (1 spare) upgrade
> Can you please suggest the other missing valve to add to complete I'm using Sennheiser  HD650 headphones , indeed to brighten them up top end  I'm lost with all the names codes etc I need help
> Please ,What can u say I'm  old ,regards and  hi to all from SouthWales



Even better if you can find a tung sol 7236.  

@JKDJedi im surprised you did not suggest this?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 30, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Even better if you can find a tung sol 7236.
> 
> @JKDJedi im surprised you did not suggest this?


I like the Sylvania 7236 with the Tung Sol Tubes. Almost prefer them with the Tung Sol tubes, especially the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. If he plans on tube rolling, which he most likely will then yeah, the Tung Sol 7236 would be a better buy.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Ok Thanks for the tip I'll start looking now


JKDJedi said:


> I like the Sylvania 7236 with the Tung Sol Tubes. Almost prefer them with the Tung Sol tubes, especially the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. If he plans on tube rolling, which he most likely will then yeah, the Tung Sol 7236 would be a better buy.


Ok thanks I'm having trouble  finding Sylvania 7236 , can find Tung sol 6SN7GTB  £35,00


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> I like the Sylvania 7236 with the Tung Sol Tubes. Almost prefer them with the Tung Sol tubes, especially the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. If he plans on tube rolling, which he most likely will then yeah, the Tung Sol 7236 would be a better buy.


Thanks guys tung sol 6SN7GTB   would NIS be better ,and , have heard somewhere different countries make the same valves Tung Sol 6SN7GTB  where are they made if more than 1 which country us the best ,tanks again


----------



## JKDJedi

Taffy the tramp said:


> Thanks guys tung sol 6SN7GTB   would NIS be better ,and , have heard somewhere different countries make the same valves Tung Sol 6SN7GTB  where are they made if more than 1 which country us the best ,tanks again


Yes, now I'm wondering if you were just asking about the preamp tube (the front tube). Because the 7236 tubes are only for power, the tube that sits in the back.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Many thanks guys ,your freely given nowledge Is well received 



JKDJedi said:


> I like the Sylvania 7236 with the Tung Sol Tubes. Almost prefer them with the Tung Sol tubes, especially the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. If he plans on tube rolling, which he most likely will then yeah, the Tung Sol 7236 would be a better buy.


No I've bought the  Tung sol 6SN7GTB  NEW OLD STOCK values (a pair 1 spare)  ,I do not have the amp yet sooo I need the other valve suggestion  please when you say the valves and codes I'm lost sorry


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Taffy the tramp said:


> Many thanks guys ,your freely given nowledge Is well received
> 
> 
> No I've bought the  Tung sol 6SN7GTB  NEW OLD STOCK values (a pair 1 spare)  ,I do not have the amp yet sooo I need the other valve suggestion  please when you say the valves and codes I'm lost sorry


Iv just found out I bought the pre apm valve i now need a power amp valve please


----------



## Slade01

Taffy the tramp said:


> Thanks guys tung sol 6SN7GTB   would NIS be better ,and , have heard somewhere different countries make the same valves Tung Sol 6SN7GTB  where are they made if more than 1 which country us the best ,tanks again



Well on the darkvoice - there are two tube slots right? the 6SN7 which is the driver tube.  And the 6AS7 which is the power tube.


Taffy the tramp said:


> Iv just found out I bought the pre apm valve i now need a power amp valve please



The power tube (6AS7). You can try to find a Thomson 6080 tube.  They are a France made tube (maybe more readily available in UK)  A buddy of mine said they can help bring that sparkle/airy in the top range.  And I believe they may be inexpensive as well.

For the 6AS7 tube you can use 6080, 7236 among others tubes as equivalents.


----------



## Xibipiio

Taffy the tramp said:


> Hi sorry to jump in ,newbie I just bought a used DarkVoice 336se   not received yet
> and I've just bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB NOS (1 spare) upgrade
> Can you please suggest the other missing valve to add to complete I'm using Sennheiser  HD650 headphones , indeed to brighten them up top end  I'm lost with all the names codes etc I need help
> Please ,What can u say I'm  old ,regards and  hi to all from SouthWales



In general, using a 6080 or 7236 tube for the power tube (the one in the back) will brighten the sound up some, compared to a 6as7g. The Tung Sol 7236 is a really nice tube (I think the Sylvana is a rebranded Tung Sol, but I could be wrong. Happy listening!


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 30, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> In general, using a 6080 or 7236 tube for the power tube (the one in the back) will brighten the sound up some, compared to a 6as7g. The Tung Sol 7236 is a really nice tube (I think the Sylvana is a rebranded Tung Sol, but I could be wrong. Happy listening!


No their not the same, I  have both of them.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Many thanks guys ,I very much appreciate all your input ,to me it's just  like Chinese it just doesnt stick , my valve knowledge is zero


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Its bloody complicated  with no base knowledge for me  its impossible ,I would have wasted a lot  of hard earned  wonga


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 30, 2019)

Taffy the tramp said:


> Its bloody complicated  with no base knowledge for me  its impossible ,I would have wasted a lot  of hard earned  wonga


Your in the right place for advice.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> Your in the right place for advice. Let us know how it goes!


Bloody right mate 
Ok many thanks (I love this site,  you guys are verry keen to pass on hard earned knowledge much appreciate


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> No their not the same, I  have both of them.



I stand corrected! Thanks


----------



## DarkDrummer

attmci said:


> Oh, yes, I did use the 12AU7s when I was playing with the twin 6BL7s on the BHC. You have to shield the transformer noise or use other way to avoid )). Moreover, I have to chose the correct pair of 6BL7s otherwise the results were no good.
> 
> Sorry, I understand this is not the BHC thread.


Sorry for my ignorance, but....what is BHC??


----------



## cddc

You guys forgot to mention GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, Tung Sol 421A, Tung Sol 5998 for power tubes .....they're supposed to be the best, but very pricey though...


----------



## cddc

DarkDrummer said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but....what is BHC??



BottleHeadCrack, a cousin to DV336...


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> You guys forgot to mention GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, Tung Sol 421A, Tung Sol 5998 for power tubes .....they're supposed to be the best, but very pricey though...



The holy grail of power tubes (valves).   Costs are astronomical though.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Thanks , I priced some of the better valves WOW ,your right verry expensive ,I'm retired soo I wont be buying those £50.. per valve is the most,  thanks again to all ,TAFFY


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> Thanks , I priced some of the better valves WOW ,your right verry expensive ,I'm retired soo I wont be buying those £50.. per valve is the most,  thanks again to all ,TAFFY




You are welcome. HD650 pairs very well with OTL amps like DV336, I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy the fantastic sound out of the combo.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Thanks, I'm looking forward to it ,


----------



## attmci

DarkDrummer said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but....what is BHC??


This amp:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crack-bottlehead-otl.476650/


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Hi bagged a  RCA 6080WA cheap I'll try that with the Tung-Sol SN7GTB  ,with the Darkvoice 336se Sennheiser hd650   ,I cant wait


----------



## cddc

Tung Sol 6SN7GTB is a good one, just make sure to grab the U.S. made NOS vintage Tung Sol...not these Russian new production Tung Sol's, they're not Tung Sol at all, they just bought the Tung Sol label and put it on their EH tubes. Same goes for Russian new production Mullard or Telefunken.

In fact I prefer NOS tubes to any new production.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

The seller on fleeabay says NOS russian made . I thought nos  was better ,will they be nos or is it bs .I'm lost verry complicated subject .matter  marked 07 and  many thanks again . I think I've been arse screw** 


 03


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Sorry marked 07 and 03


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Sorry valve marked 07 03


----------



## cddc (Oct 2, 2019)

Taffy the tramp said:


> The seller on fleeabay says NOS russian made . I thought nos  was better ,will they be nos or is it bs .I'm lost verry complicated subject .matter  marked 07 and  many thanks again . I think I've been arse screw**  03




Unfortunately my friend these are clearly Russian new production Tung Sol's...not U.S. NOS Tung Sol's...on the base it says "made in Russia" and they have brown bases. The seller was misleading people by using the term NOS. NOS means vintage tubes from 30's to 60's, the Russian new production tubes are made after millennium, i think.

Most U.S. made NOS Tung Sol GTB's have black plastic bases.

On the plus side the ones you bought sound good, not as good as the U.S. NOS Tung Sol GTB to my taste, but still good.


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 2, 2019)

NOS Tung-Sols vs Re-Issues


----------



## Taffy the tramp

He said new production old stock similar to RCA Red base


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Ah ha said the blind man I've tried to cancel it on fleabay ,if I manage to cancel it what would you suggest for clean open ,with highs that are  bright top  end great great mids and less bass with my 
RCA 6080 wa and sennheiser HD650s Darkvoice come


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Combo sorry


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> NOS Tung-Sols vs Re-Issues




That's a very good video clip, I watched it couple of weeks ago.

In the comments section below the clip, people are debating which one is better...very subjective as always


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> Ah ha said the blind man I've tried to cancel it on fleabay ,if I manage to cancel it what would you suggest for clean open ,with highs that are  bright top  end great great mids and less bass with my
> RCA 6080 wa and sennheiser HD650s Darkvoice come



RCA 6SN7 has great mids, but you want less bass so I would recommend Sylvania 6SN7


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> That's a very good video clip, I watched it couple of weeks ago.
> 
> In the comments section below the clip, people are debating which one is better...very subjective as always



Yeah - gotta remember that this is very subjective.  While for the most part, NOS tubes are usually better, I think there are some re-issues that come close or are as good.  I think this re-issue tung-sol personally is one of them.  When I had a Vali 2, I used this re-issue tube heavily - it had that sound stage, airy top end and sparkle I was looking for.  Unfortunately, I could never get this re-issue tube to be silent enough on the DV, even when I left it near a week to burn-in, still had a persistent hum and I gave up on it.  I think when it works, its a really good tube for a re-issue.  But thats just me.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> You guys forgot to mention GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, Tung Sol 421A, Tung Sol 5998 for power tubes .....they're supposed to be the best, but very pricey though...


Didn't want to discourage him with tubes that cost more than the amp itself..


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 5, 2019)

cddc said:


> Unfortunately my friend these are clearly Russian new production Tung Sol's...not U.S. NOS Tung Sol's...on the base it says "made in Russia" and they have brown bases. The seller was misleading people by using the term NOS. NOS means vintage tubes from 30's to 60's, the Russian new production tubes are made after millennium, i think.
> 
> Most U.S. made NOS Tung Sol GTB's have black plastic bases.
> 
> On the plus side the ones you bought sound good, not as good as the U.S. NOS Tung Sol GTB to my taste, but still good.





Taffy the tramp said:


> Ah ha said the blind man I've tried to cancel it on fleabay ,if I manage to cancel it what would you suggest for clean open ,with highs that are  bright top  end great great mids and less bass with my
> RCA 6080 wa and sennheiser HD650s Darkvoice come


You might have liked the tube, it was my first tube and I liked it it a lot before getting to know more about the NOS tubes. less bass...hmm, RCA 6SN7GT grey glass, Westinghouse 6SN7GTB,  tall bottle NOS Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, . Every Sylvania I've tried has a nice bass hump, so stay away from those if you don't want bass. I'm the opposite..I look for BASS.  to each their own. Get mid 1950's to upper 1940's and your set (Westinghouse 1960's are good, if not a steal for the price) . Good Luck!
Edit: I errored in saying the Raytheon WGT had no bass...it's quite the opposite!


----------



## JKDJedi

My GEC  pair came in awhile back and long story short, these GEC CV4079z were said, recommended to me, to have the GEC 6AS7G sound for a fraction of the price... so I jumped in with two feet. Looks nice but don't even waste your monies on any 6AS7G adapters folks, JUST DOESN'T WORK. This is two strikes as the first strike came in on the 6BL7 experiment. I think it's just the DArkvoice design. So done with 6AS7G hack experiments!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> My GEC  pair came in awhile back and long story short, these GEC CV4079z were said, recommended to me, to have the GEC 6AS7G sound for a fraction of the price... so I jumped in with two feet. Looks nice but don't even waste your monies on any 6AS7G adapters folks, JUST DOESN'T WORK. This is two strikes as the first strike came in on the 6BL7 experiment. I think it's just the DArkvoice design. So done with 6AS7G hack experiments!



The adapter seems to come from Dayen, does it?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 2, 2019)

cddc said:


> The adapter seems to come from Dayen, does it?


Yes, not his fault the Darkvoice is funky and unusual, the chifi adapters didn't work either.


----------



## cddc

I see...could be the case that when you use dual tubes for the 6AS7 socket, the combination has parameters way off DV's design range hence leads to terrible sound


----------



## Taffy the tramp

O thanks  again  all I've seen a matched pair ? Of  6sn7    6SN7GTB  for £31.65 vintage 60s tube (what is a matched pair ) and how long do valve last  measured 600/2550 micromhos on both ? Free shipping


----------



## Taffy the tramp

My bad £11.50 to the uk from Virginia US of A


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JAPANESE  oh bum


----------



## Taffy the tramp

] Now seen on ETSY US  6SN7GTB £51.99 plus shipping


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Ok thanks  again  all


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 3, 2019)

Taffy the tramp said:


> O thanks  again  all I've seen a matched pair ? Of  6sn7    6SN7GTB  for £31.65 vintage 60s tube (what is a matched pair ) and how long do valve last  measured 600/2550 micromhos on both ? Free shipping


You don't need a pair. And 2550/2550 is right of the assembly line spanking brand new... 600/2550 is used and abused.. but still might last you a few years. My 2 cents. 
This might work out for you...

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233354237912

And wow did a quick ebay search of New England...them tubes out there are pricey! Get this one and it will be your end game tube...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brimar-6...055674&hash=item28853d1bf8:g:KfgAAOSwRmhdgTVV


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Thank no post to uk but Grrrreeeaaat info many thanks your to kind my friend


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Sorry premature eclickulation clicked wrong 1 my bad


----------



## Taffy the tramp

WOW £100.00 bucks for a little valve .what makes it THAT good  ,I know  YOU know what your talking about .
 just imagine your talking to valve dummy Duu you are ,its a screw mine field different codes  , age manufactures and countries and silly buggers buying other people's valves and stamping THEIR NAME on it or have I missed anything


----------



## Taffy the tramp

I've tried to stop the sale of the Tung sol 6SN7GTB  he wont budge unfortunately I'm stuck with them sooo I'll try them I think I'm not sure what to do ? I'll have to think about it for a while 
Thanks again all for invaluable knowledge & information gleaned over many years & at great cost


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Taffy the tramp said:


> WOW £100.00 bucks for a little valve .what makes it THAT good  ,I know  YOU know what your talking about .
> just imagine your talking to valve dummy Duu you are ,its a screw mine field different codes  , age manufactures and countries and silly buggers buying other people's valves and stamping THEIR NAME on it or have I missed anything





JKDJedi said:


> You don't need a pair. And 2550/2550 is right of the assembly line spanking brand new... 600/2550 is used and abused.. but still might last you a few years. My 2 cents.
> This might work out for you...
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233354237912
> ...





JKDJedi said:


> You don't need a pair. And 2550/2550 is right of the assembly line spanking brand new... 600/2550 is used and abused.. but still might last you a few years. My 2 cents.
> This might work out for you...
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233354237912
> ...





JKDJedi said:


> You don't need a pair. And 2550/2550 is right of the assembly line spanking brand new... 600/2550 is used and abused.. but still might last you a few years. My 2 cents.
> This might work out for you...
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233354237912
> ...


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> You don't need a pair. And 2550/2550 is right of the assembly line spanking brand new... 600/2550 is used and abused.. but still might last you a few years. My 2 cents.
> This might work out for you...
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233354237912
> ...


Thanks I would have bitten ,them number mean nothing to me ,many thanks


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> O thanks  again  all I've seen a matched pair ? Of  6sn7    6SN7GTB  for £31.65 vintage 60s tube (what is a matched pair ) and how long do valve last  measured 600/2550 micromhos on both ? Free shipping



if 600 is mu, it's basically garbage, 2600 is close to new. You can post links here and we can see if it's a good buy.


----------



## cddc

tubes normally can last 5k hrs, some military spec or premium spec tubes can last 10k hrs

Jedi's Gold Brand Sylvania 6080 is rated for 10k hrs, i believe


----------



## Slade01

Taffy the tramp said:


> Thanks I would have bitten ,them number mean nothing to me ,many thanks





cddc said:


> if 600 is mu, it's basically garbage, 2600 is close to new. You can post links here and we can see if it's a good buy.



Keep in mind those measurement readings  are specific to that machine tester (e.g. Hickok 539, etc.) .  Other times you will see other ebayers give measurements such as 81/79, which obviously seems super low, but for that kind of tester (a tube tested on a TV-7 tester), this is how it reads out, and that range 81/79 would equal a strong rated tube.    But yeah, feel free to post links here and im sure you'll get feedback.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

This is from the same seller as the tung sol 6SN7GTB


----------



## Taffy the tramp




----------



## Taffy the tramp

Ok thanks again those valves we do me


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> This is from the same seller as the tung sol 6SN7GTB



Brimar is pretty good, I have one with clear glass instead of black glass...GEC is even better... actually all British valves are very expensive


----------



## Taffy the tramp

I ment the £100 one  you linked me


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> I ment the £100 one  you linked me



I think you shouldn't go after very expensive valves like Brimar/GEC/Marconi/Mullard at the beginning....should try some U.S made GTA's/GTB's to find out the flavor you like, then go from there

U.S. made GTAs and GTB's are abundant and are normally not expensive


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> I ment the £100 one  you linked me




Just did a quick search, and here is a pair of genuine U.S. made Tung Sol 6SN7 GTB's for $35, $12 shipped to UK. One is close to new and the other is average used

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Pair-o...81130:g:1AAAAOSwyvJaz5qb&shqty=1&isGTR=1#shId


----------



## Taffy the tramp (Oct 5, 2019)

My bad €40 euros in delivery  from Italy for a pair


----------



## Taffy the tramp

I've had pretty good hifi in the past marantz cd17 ki signature , sonus faber  musica amplifier and a rebuilt pair of Quad esl 57s , a,so had jamo concert  8   so i like solid bass christal clear mids and a sparkling top end with cymbals , if possible .I use hd650 headphones I might have to rethink them as they are now bass heavy and verry dark sounding ,regards taffy


----------



## Taffy the tramp

cddc said:


> Brimar is pretty good, I have one with clear glass instead of black glass...GEC is even better... actually all British valves are very expensive


I just bagged 1 from the uk NOS £70 including postage made in 1960 I think I did well


----------



## cddc

ya...well done.  £70 Brimar NOS New In Box is good. 

I prefer Brimar 6SN7 to RCA 6SN7 grey glass. Brimar has a larger soundstage, clarity is better, and bass is punchier, mids are very nice.


----------



## cddc (Oct 4, 2019)

HD650 is considered a dark headphone, but OTL amps can help to reduce its darkness.

It is a warm and non-fatiguing headphone, good for long listening sessions, and it's forgiving to bad/harsh recordings.

It's always a pleasure to listen to my HD650. Definitely a keeper. Many audiophiles keep one in their stashs.


----------



## Taffy the tramp (Oct 4, 2019)

Ok thanks  , I have to start somewhere  sooo I listened to all the comments  and advice  from you guys , I'm pretty sure I can try it out and resel it easily for what I paid for it ( you saved me a lot of time and money ) thanks again all my ducks in a row now I've just bought a used power cable supra sheilded  for £13.00 delivered ,I'm retired " I'll health " I have plenty of time to look for good deals


----------



## Taffy the tramp

I tried a cheap schitt not to my taste not  a valve one


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Hi ,guy just to let you know some information I ordered a NOS Brimar 6SN7GT From VALVE TUBE GUITAR GUITAR AMPS in Scarborough for £70.00 (scruffy box) at 15.40 Yesterday  it arrived am this morning WOW That's Boody service, I'm just waiting until next Wednesday  until my Darkvoice 336se  arrives lol 
I have no ties or do not know  anyone at that company


----------



## JKDJedi

Taffy the tramp said:


> Hi ,guy just to let you know some information I ordered a NOS Brimar 6SN7GT From VALVE TUBE GUITAR GUITAR AMPS in Scarborough for £70.00 (scruffy box) at 15.40 Yesterday  it arrived am this morning WOW That's Boody service, I'm just waiting until next Wednesday  until my Darkvoice 336se  arrives lol
> I have no ties or do not know  anyone at that company


You scored!! Nice tube!! Your gonna be in audio NIRVANA!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 5, 2019)

*7N7-CF8G-6CG7 Lets Do This... *

* 
 So I've been wanting to do this rolling session for awhile and with my little knowledge on adapters it took some time to get these all together for this comparison write up. Before we get knee deep into this I decided to exclude the 12AT7  as it has no breath of air to be considered for this roll up... it's gonna be super hard for me to express in adjectives on the remaining three tube types,  The 7N7, CF8G , and 6CG7. All of these exude that open airiness, So lets begin this tough task.... 

(Before I begin you need to know one size does not fit all as far as adapters go...get the adapters now..even if your just thinking of buying one of these tubes...just get them). 

Headphones - Senheiser HD6XX & Fidelio X2

Tidal Playlist (Miles Davis-Radiohead-Bob Marley)

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/b5ea485b-fdff-440a-944c-ca4ecca5f977

Tung Sol 7236 used for the push duties*
* 
Marconi 6CG7 1950's

History: 

   "In 1954, RCA came out with the 6CG7, which was pitched as a direct equivalent of the 6SN7GT. Although audiophiles found that the 6SN7GT typically sounded better, this was the beginning of the end for widespread usage of the 6SN7GT. The 6CG7 was unique in having a shield between the two sections". - effectrode.com

The 6CG7 caught my attention going through the Darkvoice Massdrop  Forums, especially this post from user LIBY555 

       "Personally, I liked to use another different tube socket adapter and use a 6CG7. The 6CG7 has been called a 6SN7 in a 9 pin bottle. Electrically they are very, very similar but the 6CG7 does not sound like a 6SN7. The 6CG7 is brighter and faster sounding. Most of the 6CG7's are brighter sounding tubes, again, except for the RCA . You will find Sylvania, GE, Raytheon and even the occasional Tung Sol gray plate 6CG7. Depending on your ears all of them may be good for you. The RCA 6CG7 later became 6FQ7 and either will work ok but the RCA is richer sounding than the other 6CG7's but still brighter than most 6SN7's. I liked the 6CG7's a lot better most of the time.
The investment in a 6CG7 and adapter is much less than any good NOS 6SN7".  - LIBY555

          I grabbed a set of the RCA tubes for a side comparison to the Marconi, and yes as user LIBY555 described it the RCA sound fuller but I suspect only because the highs are not as extended as the Marconi, the RCA are without the shield between the plates so not sure how that effects sound just a note in build. These tubes do rival the nicer 6SN7GT out there and if on a budget, worth the collection.  

(Kind Of Blue) Instruments are really life like here, I got front rows seats, no I'm sitting in the middle of this jam session. The double bass instrument just bellows beautifully.  Smoked filled bar sipping on a beer kinda mood. *

*  
7N7 1950's  (Philco, Sylvania)

History: 

   "Sylvania and Raytheon came out with a loctal version, called the 7N7, which, interestingly, was registered in 1940, well before the 6SN7GT. Primarily due to the non-acceptance by RCA (the Microsoft of its time), the loctal line, though technically superior to the octal types, withered away in the late 1940s". - Effectrode.com 

     They do make a strong case for sounding technically superior. These tubes can exude mad air of sound around you (especailly with the Fedelio X2), a very lively tube. And when you find a great jazz recording like Kind Of Blue by Miles Davis.... does it get any better? 

     The 7N7 is basically a 6SN7GT tube without the base, all the internals are the same (especailly/mostly with the short bottles). I don't see much or have yet to see a tall bottle 6SN7GT bottle that shares the same innards as the tall 7N7.  The other differences would be the pin layout. 

    For the most part of the three 7N7 tubes I have (one short, two tall bottles) the tall bottles have the better imaging and overall stage presence. I do have to mention Headphoneus Supremus  member bcowen has named a particular 7N7 tube, one that he states.. 

" I ran across an Ebay ad for the tall bottle pictured below. And the rest is now history. Powerful bass, dynamic and punchy, a midrange that's *just* right, beautiful treble, the rhythmic drive of a Foton. But there are two things that are remarkable with this tube: imaging (or maybe soundstaging) that locates each performer or instrument in its own acoustic space. You can pick out the individual voice in a chorus and the 3rd violin from center in an orchestra. And you hear the space surrounding them. I haven't heard this space-reality thing with headphones before". -bcowen

He's named this tall 7N7 tube "The FRANKENTUBE" and it's caught on by all headfi members following this guy. The one tube that will for sure qualify as The FRANKENTUBE is the JAN CBRZ 7N7 (Lansdale). These are super rare and hard to find. He does point out there are carbon copy builds with no notable differences in sound. (General Electric for example)  again more from bcowen..

"The stuff required to be knighted as a Frankentube:

1) Tall bottle with unique 'squared-off' top shape.
2) Top getter with flashing that completely covers the inside of the bottle at least a 3rd of the way down, and usually half way down.
3) T-Plates where the flat part of the plates face each other. There are gray plate and black plate versions. I have both, and can't honestly tell much difference between them.
4) True racetrack mica supports, top and bottom. By that I mean that the shape is a true oval, and not like a rectangle with ends that are rounded (see below).
5) Square (or slightly rectangular) pan-type getter tray (or support)".

-bcowen

I can only imagine what a FRANKENTUBE would sound like as the tall tubes in my possession lack the very flat top tube appearance.  As they are now, they sound incredible. Instrument separation above average, and lively. *

* 
Sylvania CF8G VT-99 1940's

History:

       "The immediate predecessor of the 6SN7GT was the 6F8G, developed by RCA in 1937. The 6F8G was a dual version of the 6J5, which was a slightly “hotter” version of the 6C5 of 1935. The 6F8 had the larger “G” (or ST-12) bulb with the troublesome grid cap for one of the triodes. The compact straight-sided GT “Bantam” types, introduced by Hytron in 1938, had become the rage by the early 1940s, and the 6SN7GT was the natural evolution of the unwieldy 6F8G". - effectrode.com

   The Sylvania VT-99 CF8G has a lush warm sound, with sweet reverb that seems to echo off walls of a concert hall. Laid back and smooth. As what you would expect from a tube made in the 40's, an 80 year old tube..let that sink in for a minute. Of the three this one will stand out the most as an interesting conversation piece, the small coke bottle and wired top cap design, you almost want to call this your end game tube and permanently leave it there.  Because of the afore mentioned qualities I can forgive it's small short comings, it's not as dynamic or as fast as the 7N7 or 6CG7, but it doesn't need to be, it's perfect as it is, romantic and musical. 

Note: This tube runs the coolest of the three

Tid Bits:   

Kind Of Blue  (by Miles Davis) if your into this album or new to it, I highly recommend Somethin' Else by Cannonball Adderley. If there's a resemblance in style it's because Cannonball left his group to help Miles Davis on the Kind Of Blue recording (the highest selling jazz album of all time), a year later Miles Davis returned the favor and helped him record  Somethin' Else.  both classics. *


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Ok thank you very much , I just bagged a pair or used Sennheiser  HD600 for £88.00 Delivered,  WOW I couldn't believe it  I'm going to be busy the next few weeks A/B comparison between my HD650s before tube rolling , thanks again all for brilliant  advice ,and coments


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> *7N7-CF8G-6CG7 Lets Do This... *
> 
> *
> So I've been wanting to do this rolling session for awhile and with my little knowledge on adapters it took some time to get these all together for this comparison write up. Before we get knee deep into this I decided to exclude the 12AT7  as it has no breath of air to be considered for this roll up... it's gonna be super hard for me to express in adjectives on the remaining three tube types,  The 7N7, CF8G , and 6CG7. All of these exude that open airiness, So lets begin this tough task....
> *




Fantastic write up! 

Always a pleasure to read articles like this.

I become interested in getting some of these adapters just to dip my toes into the neverland of new tubes


----------



## cddc

Taffy the tramp said:


> Ok thank you very much , I just bagged a pair or used Sennheiser  HD600 for £88.00 Delivered,  WOW I couldn't believe it  I'm going to be busy the next few weeks A/B comparison between my HD650s before tube rolling , thanks again all for brilliant  advice ,and coments




HD600 shares a lot things with HD650, and is a more neutral sounding headphone, can be bright sometimes (vs. HD650)


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> Fantastic write up!
> 
> Always a pleasure to read articles like this.
> 
> I become interested in getting some of these adapters just to dip my toes into the neverland of new tubes



@cddc its well worth it - each different variant brings something new and interesting to the music each and every time.  its wonderful to be pleasantly surprised when you're stumbling into unexplored territory for sure.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> *7N7-CF8G-6CG7 Lets Do This... *
> 
> * *
> 
> ...



So I just want to add to the 7N7 as I am listening to it for the first time this evening.  I've got a RCA JAN-CRC-6AS7G with a 7N7 CBS/Hytron Tallboy (also an almost Frankentube, just lacking the flattened top).  I didn't know what to expect - but its one of those tubes that have again pleasantly surprised me.  It is a highly musical tube, and as JKDJedi has stated, incredible sound, with above average instrument separation, and indeed lively.  The biggest impression I have on this tube is that while its soundstage probably isn't as wide (not a concert hall) as the 6F8Gs per se, its still very satisfying in its own right  -- it still has that reverb echo but while reducing that soundstage, gives the music a huge boost in what I can only describe as musical cohesiveness - maybe this is what is meant when something is very musical, but it truely brings about some sense of harmony -- a more intimate soundstage but the positioning of the instruments and vocals hits a great synergy with this tube.  Also want to add that the bass sections are strong and delivers.  This tube does alot of things right - one of the best all arounder tubes I have come across, with crisp and clear details, smooth vocals, and a solid bass performance.   I'm happy to have been able to come across this tube.  Thank you @JKDJedi for the heads up on this.  Much appreciated.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Many thanks ,So how do I find out if it a geuine 1950 philco silvania 7N7  ,and what sort of price please?  Where are they made etc ,you've shown 3 pictures which is which please


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> *7N7-CF8G-6CG7 Lets Do This... *
> 
> *
> So I've been wanting to do this rolling session for awhile and with my little knowledge on adapters it took some time to get these all together for this comparison write up. Before we get knee deep into this I decided to exclude the 12AT7  as it has no breath of air to be considered for this roll up... it's gonna be super hard for me to express in adjectives on the remaining three tube types,  The 7N7, CF8G , and 6CG7. All of these exude that open airiness, So lets begin this tough task....
> ...


----------



## Taffy the tramp (Oct 6, 2019)

Great  info thanks , I read on another site all 7N7 valves are made by Sylvanian ,except the tall bottle made by National Union Grey Glass 7N7 is this Tru  and how the bloody hell do KNOW ALL This information ,ie 1950 nos better etc ,its a bloody expensive mine field to an old dummy like me ,I'm so glad there still good guys left like you to decipher the real deals price and where the good stuff is made and sold by, BS iters  and fairy tales spun by sellers rogues ,idiots and down right liars and thieves


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 6, 2019)

Taffy the tramp said:


> Great  info thanks , I read on another site all 7N7 valves are made by Sylvanian ,except the tall bottle made by National Union Grey Glass 7N7 is this Tru  and how the bloody hell do KNOW ALL This information ,ie 1950 nos better etc ,its a bloody expensive mine field to an old dummy like me ,I'm so glad there still good guys left like you to decipher the real deals price and where the good stuff is made and sold by, BS iters  and fairy tales spun by sellers rogues ,idiots and down right liars and thieves


I've read that National Union has a grey glass bottle that's distinctly theirs. I also have a Tall Bottle that's Sylvania made. From the few articles I've read, Sylvania and RAytheon were the only one's making the 7N7 tubes for all other manufacturers. You got me really curious and now I'm searching the net furiously..lol, I'll update if I find any new news!  EDIT: And yeah right away I just read from the Reference 6SN7 thread that it was RCA and Philco who created these. It's safe to say that Sylvania built the bulk of these 7N7 tubes for different companies.


----------



## Taffy the tramp (Oct 6, 2019)

Yes it was on head case 23 March 2006 in miscellaneous is where I read it
What sort of prices do the NOS   1950 Sylviana 7N7 real Mcoy sell for please


----------



## JKDJedi

i accidentally ripped the cap off my Sylvania VT99 CF8G tube!! *&%*&^$%  I'm glad I held my cool.. went to Home Depot and got the cheapest soldering iron there, took me a half hour to figure out how to fix the cap in place as these things get extremely hot! I almost gave up when I noticed a very small pinhole top of the cap, seated it on the thin wire it was attached too, and just placed the tip of the soldering iron at the top...and it held!! Who knows for how long.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 6, 2019)

Taffy the tramp said:


> Yes it was on head case 23 March 2006 in miscellaneous is where I read it
> What sort of prices do the NOS   1950 Sylviana 7N7 real Mcoy sell for please


Between $30 to $50, and if you look enough people who don't know what they have... $3 Tall Bottles are the one's you want, and her'es a pair, not matched.  --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-loctal...=23322397756794bff175c57b4882a5831b8eedc92c9d


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Between $30 to $50, and if you look enough people who don't know what they have... $3 Tall Bottles are the one's you want, and her'es a pair, not matched.  -->



@Taffy the tramp just don't forget you need a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> i accidentally ripped the cap off my Sylvania VT99 CF8G tube!! *&%*&^$%  I'm glad I held my cool.. went to Home Depot and got the cheapest soldering iron there, took me a half hour to figure out how to fix the cap in place as these things get extremely hot! I almost gave up when I noticed a very small pinhole top of the cap, seated it on the thin wire it was attached too, and just placed the tip of the soldering iron at the top...and it held!! Who knows for how long.



Holy Moly, didn't know 6F8G was so fragile...why they have a metal cap, a stupid design. Glad they were succeeded by 6SN7...LOL

You should have picked up some solder with lead. Lead free solder has a higher melting point, so it's harder to work with. Non lead free solder with rosin core works the best.


----------



## cddc

Hope everything works out, and you capless 6F8G will come back to life


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Between $30 to $50, and if you look enough people who don't know what they have... $3 Tall Bottles are the one's you want, and her'es a pair, not matched.  --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-loctal-vacuum-tubes-2-valves-NOS-bad-boy-radio-guitar-amplifier-tested-7N7/233223977567?_




No need to find a matched pair, that's the beauty of DV336 or other amps with single driver tube and single power tube.

Finding a matched pair is always a PITA, and costs much more.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 6, 2019)

cddc said:


> Holy Moly, didn't know 6F8G was so fragile...why they have a metal cap, a stupid design. Glad they were succeeded by 6SN7...LOL
> 
> You should have picked up some solder with lead. Lead free solder has a higher melting point, so it's harder to work with. Non lead free solder with rosin core works the best.


I pulled on the cord instead of lifting it by the cap, which I usually do but in my haste.... yup..haste makes waste. I know little to zero about soldering, and did the YouTube video before attempting the reconstructive surgery.  The one video I saw did recommend the lead free rosin core. So wondering now that I've saved my beloved VT99 if I should try the Fitz Mod or just let things be...


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> I pulled on the cord instead of lifting it by the cap, which I usually do but in my haste.... yup..haste makes waste. I know little to zero about soldering, and did the YouTube video before attempting the reconstructive surgery.  The one video I saw did recommend the lead free rosin core. So wondering now that I've saved my beloved VT99 if I should try the Fitz Mod or just let things be...


There's an old saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> There's an old saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Thanks, I think I'll just leave it alone.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I pulled on the cord instead of lifting it by the cap, which I usually do but in my haste.... yup..haste makes waste. I know little to zero about soldering, and did the YouTube video before attempting the reconstructive surgery.  The one video I saw did recommend the lead free rosin core. So wondering now that I've saved my beloved VT99 if I should try the Fitz Mod or just let things be...



To the best of my knowledge, lead free solder is only good for environmental reasons, but no good for soldering, because it has a higher melting point. In the soldering process a higher melting point means you have to leave the hot ion on boards/parts longer, which can burn the boards/parts sometimes, especially for newbies. I figure you watched the wrong YouTube clip, maybe find another clip with a 2nd opinion. 

But rosin core is always good - it helps to solder.


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Slade01 said:


> @Taffy the tramp just don't forget you need a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter!


Ok many thanms


----------



## Taffy the tramp

JKDJedi said:


> Between $30 to $50, and if you look enough people who don't know what they have... $3 Tall Bottles are the one's you want, and her'es a  ok many thanks





Slade01 said:


> @Taffy the tramp just don't forget you need a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter!


Hi I'm still a  newbie,  just recived my used Darkvoice 336se  added a NOS Brimar 6SN7GT  ,with my HD650S  WOW , I was verry happy with my headphones now ,WOW in the 1st 10 minutes  much much better,  sound stage bass much more controlled  , Eva Cassidy  sounds  brilliant ,I'm happy as a pig in the Pervevial  Doo Doo ,thanks again guy for all your help and advice


----------



## Taffy the tramp

Hi it's me again ,  UPDATE  TO  Darkvoice  336se  Amp ,I just dropped in a used USA jan 6080wa valve ,F### me WOW up to my neck in Doo Doo now ,its the best money I've EVER  spent on hi-fi I've spent more on speaker cables than the whole lot inc upgrade valves  etc ,i'm bloody stunned at how good it sound now after 20 minutes WOW WOW  that's ne done for now maybe a dac ,lol


----------



## cddc (Oct 7, 2019)

congrats, that's what I predicted about HD650 and DV336....

BTW, Eva Cassidy is really really really good, one of my fav singers all time!


----------



## Taffy the tramp

I ,bow to superior knowledge ,lol ,yes bang on I'll try my HD600S when and if the arrive a new dealer on Amazon £88.00 for a good pair of used 600 ,its worth a punt I cant loose ,they can be rebuilt ,like the 6 million dollar man , now I'm showing  my age ,thanks again 
P.s have you heard Joni Mitchel " Both sides now "  the latest 1 from the film" Love actually .  Very dark and smokey " great track,  When I googled it I was verry suprised who it was.


----------



## cddc

£88.00 for a pair of good HD600s is a steal  

Not yet, will Youtube it now


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 7, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> I pulled on the cord instead of lifting it by the cap, which I usually do but in my haste.... yup..haste makes waste. I know little to zero about soldering, and did the YouTube video before attempting the reconstructive surgery.  The one video I saw did recommend the lead free rosin core. So wondering now that I've saved my beloved VT99 if I should try the Fitz Mod or just let things be...





JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, I think I'll just leave it alone.


Your pull of the adapter cord connecting the cap hurts my soul, lol.  As for the Fitz Mod, unless there's some tubes with that continue to have humming issues after proper burn-in, I would say no.  The gain introduced by the mod is not something I'm happy with to be honest.  I'm thinking of reversing the mod or seeing if a new volume pot would improve things.  The stock 250K pot is a bit too much for this amp.  Lately, I've just been too lazy and have been listening to my planars a lot.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Your pull of the adapter cord connecting the cap hurts my soul, lol.  As for the Fitz Mod, unless there's some tubes with that continue to have humminh issues after proper burn-in, I would say no.  The gain introduced by the mod is not something I'm happy with to be honest.  I'm thinking of reversing the mod or seeing if a new volume pot would improve things.  The stock 250K pot is a bit too much for this amp.  Lately, I've just been too lazy and have been listening to my planars a lot.


Lol....I nearly cried when it happened. Thanks, I'm not gonna mess with it, simple burn in process has been the go too.


----------



## Taffy the tramp (Oct 8, 2019)

cddc said:


> £88.00 for a pair of good HD600s is a steal
> 
> Not yet, will Youtube it now


Ye , I though so if jt sounds to good to be true it normaly is ,them HD600 headphones were BS seller from Amazon , money back in  5 days ah well that's life , it was worth a punt


----------



## Keno18

Just popped in an NOS Sylvania 6as7a black plate from ebay I got for $6 plus $4.53 shipping. Wasn't expecting much but was pleasantly suprised. Makes a new production Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb sound vintage.  Will keep this combo in for a while.


----------



## cddc

Keno18 said:


> Just popped in an NOS Sylvania 6as7a black plate from ebay I got for $6 plus $4.53 shipping. Wasn't expecting much but was pleasantly suprised. Makes a new production Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb sound vintage.  Will keep this combo in for a while.




I like these coke bottle shaped 6AS7G tubes....they really look sexy


----------



## Keno18

cddc said:


> I like these coke bottle shaped 6AS7G tubes....they really look sexy


Unfortunately it's not a coke bottle, just a plain glass tube, but it does have a nice glow:


----------



## cddc

Keno18 said:


> Unfortunately it's not a coke bottle, just a plain glass tube, but it does have a nice glow:




Ah...there's an "A" after 6AS7G that I completely missed out.

But it's a very nice looking tube....the tube glow is just beautiful...congrats on a good find


----------



## Keno18

cddc said:


> Ah...there's an "A" after 6AS7G that I completely missed out.
> 
> But it's a very nice looking tube....the tube glow is just beautiful...congrats on a good find


Thank you.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Ah...there's an "A" after 6AS7G that I completely missed out.
> 
> But it's a very nice looking tube....the tube glow is just beautiful...congrats on a good find


Yup, a very nice glow.


----------



## mrwasabi

Can anyone help me out on where to get a couple Shuguang Cv181-z tubes? I'm a newb to tubes and see a bunch from China on eBay. Are the blue ones the same as black and current?

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Slade01

mrwasabi said:


> Can anyone help me out on where to get a couple Shuguang Cv181-z tubes? I'm a newb to tubes and see a bunch from China on eBay. Are the blue ones the same as black and current?
> 
> Thanks for any help.



If I understand the history correctly - the blue glass version was their first wave of their tubes.  The black glass is the upgraded version as it is a carbon polymer coating that is supposed to -- enhance performance, reduce stray electron emissions (reduce noise/increase clarity).


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2019)

mrwasabi said:


> Can anyone help me out on where to get a couple Shuguang Cv181-z tubes? I'm a newb to tubes and see a bunch from China on eBay. Are the blue ones the same as black and current?
> 
> Thanks for any help.


https://www.ebay.com/i/223139362664...B2wVRFf9vBpO-goE2DhvzERlJZiqYrVwaAp3DEALw_wcB


https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-natural-sound-cv181-t

Pair --> https://www.amazon.com/Shuguang-Treasure-Cv181-z-Matched-Replace/dp/B011QZ4N1O


----------



## JKDJedi

Never drink and shop on the internet, pounded a 40 last night and this morning see that I have a National Union & KenRad VT231 shipping to me...lol. Yeah I'm a light weight.


----------



## mrwasabi

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-natural-sound-cv181-t



Those tubestore ones are the CV181-T? Aren't they different?


----------



## mrwasabi

JKDJedi said:


> Never drink and shop on the internet, pounded a 40 last night and this morning see that I have a National Union & KenRad VT231 shipping to me...lol. Yeah I'm a light weight.



Oh hell man, been there, done that way too many times...lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

mrwasabi said:


> Those tubestore ones are the CV181-T? Aren't they different?


Can't be that much different, I wouldn't know. Just have the Z type myself, and hear the PSVane tubes are better. The guys who helped develope the CV-181 made the PS Vane tube.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Slade01 (Oct 10, 2019)

mrwasabi said:


> Those tubestore ones are the CV181-T? Aren't they different?



CV181-T are their natural sound series -- this is their highest grade.
The black treasure -- CV-181-Z  are the middle grade.

There is a standard grade too, but i honestly don't know much about that, but i am certain it was three tiers altogether until that group split off and formed PSVANE.  You can't go wrong with any of those tubes however.  And as @JKDJedi points out the PSVANE stuff is even better - it continually has improved with their production tubes.


----------



## mrwasabi

Which PSVANE tubes should I be eyeballin' for my DarkVoice?

Thanks.


----------



## JKDJedi

mrwasabi said:


> Which PSVANE tubes should I be eyeballin' for my DarkVoice?
> 
> Thanks.


The grey coated one of course, the one that requires a credit card.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> CV181-T are their natural sound series -- this is their highest grade.
> The black treasure -- CV-181-Z  are the middle grade.
> 
> There is a standard grade too, but i honestly don't know much about that, but i am certain it was three tiers altogether until that group split off and formed PSVANE.  You can't go wrong with any of those tubes however.  And as @JKDJedi points out the PSVANE stuff is even better - it continually has improved with their production tubes.


Slade! Very impressive, thanks for the info.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> The grey coated one of course, the one that requires a credit card.



Honestly @mrwasabi whatever you can afford.  I think the PSVANE CV181-TII is the successor.  They also had made a treasure globe 6sn7-se which looks like an old school light bulb.  I heard they were good too but not cheap.  But my budget limited me to the older black treasure tube cv181-z which is really a fantastic tube that I would highly recommend.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Never drink and shop on the internet, pounded a 40 last night and this morning see that I have a National Union & KenRad VT231 shipping to me...lol. Yeah I'm a light weight.



You dont remember bragging about that? LOL. 
Your tube hunting prowess is indeed unparalleled, my friend.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Honestly @mrwasabi whatever you can afford.  I think the PSVANE CV181-TII is the successor.  They also had made a treasure globe 6sn7-se which looks like an old school light bulb.  I heard they were good too but not cheap.  But my budget limited me to the older black treasure tube cv181-z which is really a fantastic tube that I would highly recommend.


I concur, have the same tube and sounds great. Whatever you can afford brother. They're all good, just don't get the cheap looking clear ones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> You dont remember bragging about that? LOL.
> Your tube hunting prowess is indeed unparalleled, my friend.


And I'll really try not to b r a g to much about them..  as I've read these are dark sounding, might not be such a good mesh with the Darkvoice, so we'll see.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> And I'll really try not to b r a g to much about them..  as I've read these are dark sounding, might not be such a good mesh with the Darkvoice, so we'll see.



Should be okay if you pair them with the right power tube.  You know how this goes.  Back to the synergy thing and what works.  Maybe the winged C 6as7 which has got crisp/brighter highs, or bumping up to 6080/7236.  Of course let us know how you make out!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Never drink and shop on the internet, pounded a 40 last night and this morning see that I have a National Union & KenRad VT231 shipping to me...lol. Yeah I'm a light weight.




A very nice shot, mate!

Let's know how they pan out.


----------



## JKDJedi

I mentioned it on the 6SN7 thread about a pair of JAN CBRZ 7N7 coming in...but what are the odds this $3 tube is a Frankentube!? I just got it in on a hail mary hunch...and I'm stunned at the resemblance. I'll know for sure soon enough when the pair get end this weekend.


----------



## Xibipiio

I lucked into a Frankentube recently at a good price. It really is as good as they say. Very clean with just enough richness. I’d say it’s about as good as a Tung Sol round plate.


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> I mentioned it on the 6SN7 thread about a pair of JAN CBRZ 7N7 coming in...but what are the odds this $3 tube is a Frankentube!? I just got it in on a hail mary hunch...and I'm stunned at the resemblance. I'll know for sure soon enough when the pair get end this weekend.



it’s hard to say from the angle of the photo, but it sure looks like it could be. There’s only one tall 7N7, and this looks like one. Good find whatever you have. Let us know!


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> it’s hard to say from the angle of the photo, but it sure looks like it could be. There’s only one tall 7N7, and this looks like one. Good find whatever you have. Let us know!


Not sure if you mean in the photo or in general as far as only one tall 7N7, I have a Sylvania, Philco, and this question mark on hand all different builds and all tall 7N7.


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> Not sure if you mean in the photo or in general as far as only one tall 7N7, I have a Sylvania, Philco, and this question mark on hand all different builds and all tall 7N7.



It was my impression that the Frankentube is the only tall 7N7, even though they may be branded differently. If I’m mistaken I stand corrected. 

I assume a circuit change is required to use a 14N7 instead of a 7N7?

JKDJedi, I really appreciate the knowledge you share here; I’ve learned a lot.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 11, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> It was my impression that the Frankentube is the only tall 7N7, even though they may be branded differently. If I’m mistaken I stand corrected.
> 
> I assume a circuit change is required to use a 14N7 instead of a 7N7?
> 
> JKDJedi, I really appreciate the knowledge you share here; I’ve learned a lot.


14n7.. not sure, and no worries, I'm learning the same here from this thread. And from the 6SN7 thread, lot of surprises, right when you think you read it all, lol. Some of those guys come out of the woodworks.  And yes there seems to be a dozen different tall 7N7 out there but of the dozen maybe half are from the same manufacturer. (O.o yeah I'm confused on that one two). Mainly Sylvania. Philco /National Union might be the one to design the JAN CBRZ for Lansdale distribution to the military. The only confirmed non Lansdale build to my knowledge is a General Electric 7N7. There might be others. If your new to the Frankentube, do a quick search on it, a user here at Headfi.org @bcowen named this perticular Lansdale tube the Frankentube because of its flat head top. But I think you know about it already as you mentioned its about as good as a Tung Sol round plate. (Now I want a Tung Sol round plate) do you have any tall 7N7?


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> 14n7.. not sure, and no worries, I'm learning the same here from this thread. And from the 6SN7 thread, lot of surprises, right when you think you read it all, lol. Some of those guys come out of the woodworks.  And yes there seems to be a dozen different tall 7N7 out there but of the dozen maybe half are from the same manufacturer. (O.o yeah I'm confused on that one two). Mainly Sylvania. Philco /National Union might be the one to design the JAN CBRZ for Lansdale distribution to the military. The only confirmed non Lansdale build to my knowledge is a General Electric 7N7. There might be others. If your new to the Frankentube, do a quick search on it, a user here at Headfi.org @bcowen named this perticular Lansdale tube the Frankentube because of its flat head top. But I think you know about it already as you mentioned its about as good as a Tung Sol round plate. (Now I want a Tung Sol round plate) do you have any tall 7N7?



I do have the “Frankentube” - ordered a 7N7 blind off eBay, not knowing anything about this particular tube, and later found out it was highly thought of. And I have two Tung Sol round plates I picked up years ago at a ham fest, for maybe five bucks. Glad I didn’t pay today’s prices! 

It’s been really fun trying out my stash of 6SN7s, maybe about three dozen, bought years ago. I’d say my favorite reasonably priced ones are the RCA black glass. But even they are getting expensive. That’s why I was so happy to find out about the 7N7 and the socket adapter - cheaper fun!


----------



## cddc (Oct 11, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> It was my impression that the Frankentube is the only tall 7N7, even though they may be branded differently. If I’m mistaken I stand corrected.
> 
> I assume a circuit change is required to use a 14N7 instead of a 7N7?
> 
> JKDJedi, I really appreciate the knowledge you share here; I’ve learned a lot.




Don't know too much about Frankie 7N7, but I am pretty sure that 14N7 will need circuit change, 14 could mean 14V (or 12V) of heater voltage, which is significantly higher than the 6V from 6SN7.

7N7 = 6SN7 , so I'm guessing 14N7 = 12SN7?


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> I do have the “Frankentube” - ordered a 7N7 blind off eBay, not knowing anything about this particular tube, and later found out it was highly thought of. And I have two Tung Sol round plates I picked up years ago at a ham fest, for maybe five bucks. Glad I didn’t pay today’s prices!
> 
> It’s been really fun trying out my stash of 6SN7s, maybe about three dozen, bought years ago. I’d say my favorite reasonably priced ones are the RCA black glass. But even they are getting expensive. That’s why I was so happy to find out about the 7N7 and the socket adapter - cheaper fun!


$5!? I want to cry... Wow that's crazy, did you know what you had when you got the Tung Sols?


----------



## cddc

$5 for TS RP...OMG

I wish there is a time machine....


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> $5!? I want to cry... Wow that's crazy, did you know what you had when you got the Tung Sols?



No, this was before everybody got excited by them. Just another tube on the table.


----------



## JKDJedi

I do have to admit the short bottle Sylvania Chrome Dome tubes are probably still my favorite. Laid back, smooth vocals, smooth bass. Maybe I'm just in the mood for that kinda of sound right now.


----------



## Keno18

Well I'm set for the next 5 years or so 2 Sylvania  6as7ga's, 3 Tung-Sol 7236's paired with 1 new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and 4 vintage 6sn7gt mouse ears. Set up with Qobuz streaming through foobar2000 using DSD TRANSCODER software for an unbelievable analog sound.  Listening with Sennheiser HD6XX's I've reached my endgame, at least for now.


----------



## Jared S

hello everybody, I am sorry if I am hijacking the thread but I just bought my dark voice 336 and I don't know which tubes to buy. Upon reading on the past few pages, I have  read your recommendations and gathered these tubes. I am also using sennheiser HD 6xx. I am from the Philippines and the choices are slim. If you guys have better recommendations, please feel free to post it. Thanks! 

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/6SN7GT-Brim...844750?hash=item5b5e39694e:g:~n8AAOSwC1tdeiJa

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/1pc-NOS-6J5...387495?hash=item2ca68668a7:g:PRAAAOSwpHpbBnCn

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/NOS-TESTING...995192?hash=item3b3a6876f8:g:1KgAAOSwHt9dnHTg

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/NOS-TESTING...992589?hash=item3b3a686ccd:g:Z9AAAOSw9RZdnHNN

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/NOS-TESTING...990439?hash=item3b3a686467:g:o4sAAOSwF-FdnHKS

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/NOS-TESTING...985471?hash=item3b3a6850ff:g:qhoAAOSwFiNdnHCt


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> hello everybody, I am sorry if I am hijacking the thread but I just bought my dark voice 336 and I don't know which tubes to buy. Upon reading on the past few pages, I have  read your recommendations and gathered these tubes. I am also using sennheiser HD 6xx. I am from the Philippines and the choices are slim. If you guys have better recommendations, please feel free to post it. Thanks!
> 
> https://www.ebay.ph/itm/6SN7GT-Brim...844750?hash=item5b5e39694e:g:~n8AAOSwC1tdeiJa
> 
> ...


Brimar or Hytron, coin flip!


----------



## Xibipiio

JKDJedi said:


> $5!? I want to cry... Wow that's crazy, did you know what you had when you got the Tung Sols?





Xibipiio said:


> No, this was before everybody got excited by them. Just another tube on the table.


Just want to say, I would never pay today’s prices for a Tung Sol round plate. Yes, it sounds very nice, but unless you have money to burn you’re way past the point of diminishing returns. I believe patience is they key - go to hamfests and keep an eye on Craigslist and eBay and you will find very nice tunes at good prices. Don’t shy away from the non-boutique tubes. As many have said here, it’s all about synergy. You never know what’s going to sound nice in your amp and with your power tube and ‘phones. Have fun without breaking the bank.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 13, 2019)

Xibipiio said:


> Just want to say, I would never pay today’s prices for a Tung Sol round plate. Yes, it sounds very nice, but unless you have money to burn you’re way past the point of diminishing returns. I believe patience is they key - go to hamfests and keep an eye on Craigslist and eBay and you will find very nice tunes at good prices. Don’t shy away from the non-boutique tubes. As many have said here, it’s all about synergy. You never know what’s going to sound nice in your amp and with your power tube and ‘phones. Have fun without breaking the bank.


It's almost a catch 22..lol, your in it for the best bang for your buck "sound" or for collections sake. I'm sort of caught in between, and sold off most of my rebranded tubes (not all still have some favorites) and into collectors right now. I can't afford a Porche or Ferraii but dam them vintage tubes are within range!

Edit: these sound great on the Darkvoice, not dark at all. creamy vocals.


----------



## JKDJedi

The JAN-CBRZ-7N7 finally arrived, and yes the $3 tube I got a week before these is a carbon copy. (the odds) The Philco 7N7 is the same save the black T plates vs the grey on the others,and the micas on the Philco have some kind of coating instead of bare metal of the Lansdale tubes. I haven't done any tube rolling with these four for sound comparisons but off memory and currently listening to today's arrival, the Philco black plates a touch warmer. And not to far off from the tall Sylvania tube I have, I almost want to say they are the same! So we'll see later this weekend after some time with these guys.


----------



## DenverW

So I have quite a few tubes I was using with a Bottlehead crack/speedball in the past and I was wondering which would work with the Darkvoice.

For power tubes I’m all set, but for the 6sn7 socket, would any of the following work with an adapter?

12au7
12bh7a
Ecc802s

just curious if I should look for an 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter or if any of these would be damaging.

thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> So I have quite a few tubes I was using with a Bottlehead crack/speedball in the past and I was wondering which would work with the Darkvoice.
> 
> For power tubes I’m all set, but for the 6sn7 socket, would any of the following work with an adapter?
> 
> ...


They probably all would work with an adapter, I know for sure the 12AU7 would, it would just run at 6volts with the adapter. And the Bottlehead crack might be just a touch (don't shoot darts at me guys) better than the Darkvoice. So you'd be downgrading. I mean honestly, have you heard of any hum issues with the Bottlehead?


----------



## DenverW

My crack is pretty upgraded, so it is a bit better, but it’s not functioning right now, so it will be over a month until I have the will, and time, to troubleshoot and fix it.  

until then I’m enjoying the dark voice!  And when the crack is working again I’m gonna put the Darkvoice at my pc.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t going to hurt either the tubes or the Darkvoice by plugging in a 12au7 or 12bh7a.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> My crack is pretty upgraded, so it is a bit better, but it’s not functioning right now, so it will be over a month until I have the will, and time, to troubleshoot and fix it.
> 
> until then I’m enjoying the dark voice!  And when the crack is working again I’m gonna put the Darkvoice at my pc.
> 
> I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t going to hurt either the tubes or the Darkvoice by plugging in a 12au7 or 12bh7a.


I've used a 12AT7 with no problems. With adapter. I was concerned the same and was told by some it was a no go but I had been using it with no smoke or fuses blowing the whole time, then I was told that the adapters did the whole 6volt conversion so no worries, to go ahead and rock them tubes. DArkvoice doesnt even blink when I ever get the itch to roll that 12AT7 tube. Just get the adapter. You can find them on Ebay.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 16, 2019)

you got me going now...  found some 6GU7 tubes in my junk box and one had Sylvania on it so...lets roll this thing.. same family as the 6CG7 tubes so that adapter worked for this one. Sound as fast as the 6CG7 tubes are, with nice extended details throughout. Like it for the HD6XX/650. You could probably find this tube for pennies. Or in someone's box they're about to throw out like I did  (These are your bang for the buck)


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> So I have quite a few tubes I was using with a Bottlehead crack/speedball in the past and I was wondering which would work with the Darkvoice.
> 
> For power tubes I’m all set, but for the 6sn7 socket, would any of the following work with an adapter?
> 
> ...




No, I don't think it hurts too. They run on same or less heater current, and similar amplification factor, so they should be perfect drop-ins for 6SN7.

Just make sure to get the right adapter as per @JKDJedi


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> you got me going now... found some 6GU7 tubes in my junk box and one had Sylvania on it so...lets roll this thing.. same family as the 6CG7 tubes so that adapter worked for this one. Sound as fast as the 6CG7 tubes are, with nice extended details throughout. Like it for the HD6XX/650. You could probably find this tube for pennies. Or in someone's box they're about to throw out like I did  (These are your bang for the buck)




New frontiers....always good to hear


----------



## Slade01

@JKDJedi I'm back in 6080 land.   I got plugged in that Chatham 6080WA, and what a departure from the Sylvania JAN 6080WB I first had.  No matter what I tried with the Sylvania, it just sounded muddy, bloated, just plain bad.  The Chatham's got clarity, though sound stage seems slightly more narrow than the average 6AS7G....but makes the music more full bodied, its a tad on the darker side.  I was running this power tube initially with a regular Tung Sol 6SN7GT and a Sylvania 7N7, which were a "just okay to good sounding".  But the perfect pairing for me, I discovered is using it with a 6C8G.  The properties of the high gain tube balances out and works swimmingly with this darker 6080.  Hits the stride just right with this type of pairing.  I am beginning to really think tung-sol/chatham's can do no wrong at this point.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi I'm back in 6080 land.   I got plugged in that Chatham 6080WA, and what a departure from the Sylvania JAN 6080WB I first had.  No matter what I tried with the Sylvania, it just sounded muddy, bloated, just plain bad.  The Chatham's got clarity, though sound stage seems slightly more narrow than the average 6AS7G....but makes the music more full bodied, its a tad on the darker side.  I was running this power tube initially with a regular Tung Sol 6SN7GT and a Sylvania 7N7, which were a "just okay to good sounding".  But the perfect pairing for me, I discovered is using it with a 6C8G.  The properties of the high gain tube balances out and works swimmingly with this darker 6080.  Hits the stride just right with this type of pairing.  I am beginning to really think tung-sol/chatham's can do no wrong at this point.




Cool...it's all about pairing and synergy.

Great to hear 6C8G sounds great in your amp. Just be careful with the transformer, if it becomes too hot, you'll need to shut down the amp. I've been warned multiple times in the BHC thread not to use tubes with high gains, like 12AT7, 12AX7, etc.


----------



## JKDJedi

*Rolling a fat RCA Joint  (*RCA 6GU7)


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2019)

*Where do they stack up?*

@Paladin79 has an interesting topic going on at The Reference 6SN7 Thread ( https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-73) He had nearly 20 people, test a group of tubes (eight in total), hidden in PVC pipe, and according to their liking number/score each tube. The tubes were rolled on a schiit lyr and/or a custom Bottlehead Crack amp.The schiit Lyr has a constant transconductance output stage so no power tube needed for that amp and the Bottlehead is OTL design, they used a Tung Sol 5998 for pushing duties. From those two amps this was the out come..


Ken-Rad black glass 93.4
Melz 1578 91.7
CBS/Hytron 5692 90.4
RCA grey glass 89.7
Sylvania Bad Boy 88.3
Foton 1954 84.7
Tung Sol Mouse ears 80.1
Sylvania 7n7 Frankie 75.4

Of the eight tubes tested I have six, The Melz and CBS / Hytron are not in my possession. I'm currently doing my own testing (with 421a power tube, closest thing to a 5998 that i got) and it will probably take me a week to do.... three of the six sound realty special and you guys might be surprised at the number one spot. My Fotons just got in today so lots of work/fun ahead of me... AND...If you have these tubes jump in and please share your results!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> *Where do they stack up?*
> 
> @Paladin79 has an interesting topic going on at The Reference 6SN7 Thread ( https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-73) He had nearly 20 people, test a group of tubes (eight in total), hidden in PVC pipe, and according to their liking number/score each tube. The tubes were rolled on a schiit lyr and/or a custom Bottlehead Crack amp.The schiit Lyr has a constant transconductance output stage so no power tube needed for that amp and the Bottlehead is OTL design, they used a Tung Sol 5998 for pushing duties. From those two amps this was the out come..
> 
> ...


Fotons sound can change drastically unless you replace the solder in the pins. @bcowen can help confirm this.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Fotons sound can change drastically unless you replace the solder in the pins. @bcowen can help confirm this.


Thanks @Paladin79 I'll get that done before anything.


----------



## DenverW

I’ve been testing out the frankenvoice- the 7193 adapter with two Ken rad 7193 tubes.  Fun looking, but lots of initial hum issues.  I’ve been working on getting them burned in, and so far they’ve gone from unbearable to a slight hum in the left channel.  The hum reaches high levels when I turn the volume past 9 pm.

On the other hand, I can hear the potential.  If I can get this working properly I’ll be able to compare the three different 7193 tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 26, 2019)

DenverW said:


> I’ve been testing out the frankenvoice- the 7193 adapter with two Ken rad 7193 tubes.  Fun looking, but lots of initial hum issues.  I’ve been working on getting them burned in, and so far they’ve gone from unbearable to a slight hum in the left channel.  The hum reaches high levels when I turn the volume past 9 pm.
> 
> On the other hand, I can hear the potential.  If I can get this working properly I’ll be able to compare the three different 7193 tubes.


Don't get discouraged with the hum, just read an article that tubes that sit around for 50 years can have air creep in, the article reads that anything with hum after 48 hours should be discarded, but users here, including myself find on some tubes, burn ins up to 120 hours are not uncommon. And pics please!!

https://web.archive.org/web/20120605105654/http://www.kk5dr.com/Tubes.html


----------



## DenverW

So I’m putting frankenvoice on hold for a bit.  The tubes have more burn in but no change: silent and good until 9pm on the volume knob then huge distortion in the left channel only.  I’ve changed positions of the tubes in the adapter (may do nothing, who knows) and it’s doesnt change things.  I have some other 7193 tubes coming, and that should help me identify if this is a tube or adapter issue.  My guess is adapter, but I’ll have more troubleshooting items next week.  Until then here is a pic of me running a tungsram e80cc with adapter.  (And shameless plug: put up some tubes for sale on the boards


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> So I’m putting frankenvoice on hold for a bit.  The tubes have more burn in but no change: silent and good until 9pm on the volume knob then huge distortion in the left channel only.  I’ve changed positions of the tubes in the adapter (may do nothing, who knows) and it’s doesnt change things.  I have some other 7193 tubes coming, and that should help me identify if this is a tube or adapter issue.  My guess is adapter, but I’ll have more troubleshooting items next week.  Until then here is a pic of me running a tungsram e80cc with adapter.  (And shameless plug: put up some tubes for sale on the boards


Just do the 48 hour burn in, I know it's a drag but worth the effort imo. I have other amps I can use so it's never a bother for me.


----------



## DenverW

I’ll run it overnight a few more nights to see if anything changes.  Doesn’t hurt.  The only thing I’ve noticed is when I ran a 7236 instead of a 6080 power tube it happened at a lower volume level.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I’ll run it overnight a few more nights to see if anything changes.  Doesn’t hurt.  The only thing I’ve noticed is when I ran a 7236 instead of a 6080 power tube it happened at a lower volume level.


Interesting... 7236 has a higher output, I could be wrong


----------



## DenverW

Ya, one way or the other it seems power tubes output is making a small difference in when the distortion happens.  I don’t know enough to ascertain what that means, so I’ll just troubleshoot a bit.

oh, and can you see the super ghetto black tape over the blue power light?


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Ya, one way or the other it seems power tubes output is making a small difference in when the distortion happens.  I don’t know enough to ascertain what that means, so I’ll just troubleshoot a bit.
> 
> oh, and can you see the super ghetto black tape over the blue power light?


Going through the same with my Fotons, good news is the burn in is helping and they're sounding better every day.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Just do the 48 hour burn in, I know it's a drag but worth the effort imo. I have other amps I can use so it's never a bother for me.



I second that. I had an old NOS 6SN7 tube with hums upon initial listen, but after 24 hours burn-in hums disappeared.


----------



## cddc

My guess is that some gas leaked into the NOS tube and caused humming issues, after running tube 24 hours, heat activated the getter which absorbed the leaked in gas, and tube was back to good.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Interesting... 7236 has a higher output, I could be wrong



You are right, 7236 has higher gain than 6080/6AS7G does.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Ya, one way or the other it seems power tubes output is making a small difference in when the distortion happens.  I don’t know enough to ascertain what that means, so I’ll just troubleshoot a bit.
> 
> oh, and can you see the super ghetto black tape over the blue power light?


LMAO... Same with my amp... black taped the same.


----------



## toufeeq

I'm running the DV336SE with a pair of vintage Tung-Sols(TS 6SN7GTB and the TS 5998 JAN-CTL-5998) and I seem to be getting a hum/buzz in both channels. Both of these tubes were purchased from Ebay and marked as NOS. The hum/buzz is constant and doesn't change in loudness if I increase/decrease the volume and its uniform across both channels. 

At first, I thought it was the 6SN7 based on this 72 hr burn-in thread. But then I swapped the Tung-sol for the stock 6SN7 and I still get the same hum/buzz which leads me to think its not the 6SN7. Any idea what might be happening?


----------



## Xibipiio

toufeeq said:


> I'm running the DV336SE with a pair of vintage Tung-Sols(TS 6SN7GTB and the TS 5998 JAN-CTL-5998) and I seem to be getting a hum/buzz in both channels. Both of these tubes were purchased from Ebay and marked as NOS. The hum/buzz is constant and doesn't change in loudness if I increase/decrease the volume and its uniform across both channels.
> 
> At first, I thought it was the 6SN7 based on this 72 hr burn-in thread. But then I swapped the Tung-sol for the stock 6SN7 and I still get the same hum/buzz which leads me to think its not the 6SN7. Any idea what might be happening?



Are the tubes well seated in their sockets? You might try cleaning the pins to your tubes with isopropyl alcohol (no scent or additives) and letting them dry. Also, you could gently clean your tube sockets with pipe cleaners. Let everything dry well and check for lint, etc. 

I’ve found if the tubes will hum if they’re not fully in the sockets.


----------



## JKDJedi

Xibipiio said:


> Are the tubes well seated in their sockets? You might try cleaning the pins to your tubes with isopropyl alcohol (no scent or additives) and letting them dry. Also, you could gently clean your tube sockets with pipe cleaners. Let everything dry well and check for lint, etc.
> 
> I’ve found if the tubes will hum if they’re not fully in the sockets.


I second this, and if the amp is new I'd suspect it needs a good burn in as well, maybe leaving everything on for a few days.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

I can't believe that the hum issue is still alive and kicking - go back near the beginning of this long thread and see the real reason, it's a design and component problem. Also so many of you don't mind that there is only one minute sweet spot - that too is easily solved.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gallic Dweller said:


> I can't believe that the hum issue is still alive and kicking - go back near the beginning of this long thread and see the real reason, it's a design and component problem. Also so many of you don't mind that there is only one minute sweet spot - that too is easily solved.


One minute sweet spot? And yes, new owners will be just as puzzled as we were when we first got this unit so yes, it's still alive in 2019.


----------



## toufeeq

Xibipiio said:


> Are the tubes well seated in their sockets? You might try cleaning the pins to your tubes with isopropyl alcohol (no scent or additives) and letting them dry. Also, you could gently clean your tube sockets with pipe cleaners. Let everything dry well and check for lint, etc.
> 
> I’ve found if the tubes will hum if they’re not fully in the sockets.



I think so. I tried moving them around and there is no give on either tubes. I will try the cleaning method you suggested. Thanks.


----------



## toufeeq

JKDJedi said:


> I second this, and if the amp is new I'd suspect it needs a good burn in as well, maybe leaving everything on for a few days.



The amp was purchased Dec'17 and I ran it on the stock tubes for the longest time. Only now getting to try different tubes.


----------



## DenverW

I have trouble believing that there is a one minute fix that will cover every darkvoice 336se amp, every tube, and every tube combination.  The hum issue is still a viable topic.  Are you referring to the internal fix that requires soldering?


----------



## toufeeq

Xibipiio said:


> Are the tubes well seated in their sockets? You might try cleaning the pins to your tubes with isopropyl alcohol (no scent or additives) and letting them dry. Also, you could gently clean your tube sockets with pipe cleaners. Let everything dry well and check for lint, etc.
> 
> I’ve found if the tubes will hum if they’re not fully in the sockets.



OK, that seemed to have helped. I took the power tube out and cleaned the connectors with a cloth(no alcohol) and it seems to be better now. Thank you. The TS5998 isn't exaclty a tight fit in the socket so maybe it just needed to be re-inserted.


----------



## toufeeq

toufeeq said:


> OK, that seemed to have helped. I took the power tube out and cleaned the connectors with a cloth(no alcohol) and it seems to be better now. Thank you. The TS5998 isn't exaclty a tight fit in the socket so maybe it just needed to be re-inserted.



Nevermind, it returned after 5 minutes. So on power on and while it is warming up, there is no hum. The hum sets in after 5-10 minutes of use.


----------



## JKDJedi

toufeeq said:


> Nevermind, it returned after 5 minutes. So on power on and while it is warming up, there is no hum. The hum sets in after 5-10 minutes of use.


Try plugging it into a different outlet by itself, no power strips


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 3, 2019)

toufeeq said:


> Nevermind, it returned after 5 minutes. So on power on and while it is warming up, there is no hum. The hum sets in after 5-10 minutes of use.


You could send that 5998 to me for further evaluation..   (and letting it bake for another 72 hours might help, if not you might have a bad tube) ;(


----------



## toufeeq

JKDJedi said:


> You could send that 5998 to me for further evaluation..   (and letting it bake for another 72 hours might help, if not you might have a bad tube) ;(



I know its recommended for the 6SN7 tubes to be burned in for 72 hours but does that apply to the 6AS7 tubes as well? That seems like a recipe for overheating?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 3, 2019)

toufeeq said:


> I know its recommended for the 6SN7 tubes to be burned in for 72 hours but does that apply to the 6AS7 tubes as well? That seems like a recipe for overheating?


Good question for the 6as7 guys, and although I wouldn't leave a 6as7 tube on for 72 hours, a humming tube that I might end up throwing away? Yeah, I'd let it burn in good before going that route.


----------



## DenverW

That’s a long time for the amp to be powered on and while it would probably be fine, I wouldn’t recommend it until a last attempt.  As I mentioned in my pm I would try some different inexpensive power tubes with different gains and see what that does,  I’ve got some tubes that always hum together but don’t with different combinations.


----------



## Xibipiio

toufeeq said:


> Nevermind, it returned after 5 minutes. So on power on and while it is warming up, there is no hum. The hum sets in after 5-10 minutes of use.



Oh man, sorry about that...for a minute there I thought we’d solved it. All I know to do is swap in new tubes and see if it helps.


----------



## sennfan83261

toufeeq said:


> I know its recommended for the 6SN7 tubes to be burned in for 72 hours but does that apply to the 6AS7 tubes as well? That seems like a recipe for overheating?


Personally, I wouldn't burn in power tubes (6AS7, 421A, 5998, 6080, 7236, etc.) for that length of time unattended for safety reasons, which is why I never seen anyone recommend burning in power tubes outside of this thread.  Strange that the OEM tubes that came with your unit exhibited hum unless you didn't burn in the OEM 6SN7 tube before.  Did you check your signal chain?  If you are using a DAC or your motherboard, did you hook it up to another amp?  Did you plug in your Darkvoice to another outlet? Is your source plugged into a different outlet from the Darkvoice (i.e. noise from ground loops).


----------



## toufeeq

sennfan83261 said:


> Did you check your signal chain?  If you are using a DAC or your motherboard, did you hook it up to another amp?  Did you plug in your Darkvoice to another outlet? Is your source plugged into a different outlet from the Darkvoice (i.e. noise from ground loops).



I have a Schiit MODI 2 as my DAC and I use a RCA splitter from out RCA out to feed the Darkvoice and a Schiit Magni. When I plug the headphones(Senn HD6xx) to the Magni, I get no hum and it is clear. I tried my Audeze LCD-2Cs as well and got the hum on the DV but not on the Magni. 

The DV is plugged directly into the wall and is separate from the power strip for the Magni/Laptop. 

At this point I think I have one of three options:

1. Try the 72 hr burn-in process  with the tubes I have (Tung Sols; 6SN7GTB and 5998)
2. Get a different 6AS7 or 6080 power tube 
3. Try the Fitz mod which would probably be my last resort.


----------



## sennfan83261

toufeeq said:


> I have a Schiit MODI 2 as my DAC and I use a RCA splitter from out RCA out to feed the Darkvoice and a Schiit Magni. When I plug the headphones(Senn HD6xx) to the Magni, I get no hum and it is clear. I tried my Audeze LCD-2Cs as well and got the hum on the DV but not on the Magni.
> 
> The DV is plugged directly into the wall and is separate from the power strip for the Magni/Laptop.
> 
> ...


I would do 2 and 3 in that order.  As for 2, RCA 6080's are cheap and plentiful, so I would go with that it you just want to test only.  Or, if you want a solid backup to your 5998, then there's Tung-Sol 7236's..  As for 1, I wouldn't burn-in a power tube and leave this amp unattended unless you have fire insurance .  Anyways, if you did the Fitz mod and still hear noise, then it is likely you have busted power tube.  In my case, when I heard static (not a hum) on my modded DV, I quickly found out that it was a NOS RCA grey glass 6SN7 that I picked up for a song.  The arc'ing when turning the volume up and down was cool to watch but I quickly discarded that bum 6SN7.


----------



## toufeeq

sennfan83261 said:


> I would do 2 and 3 in that order.  As for 2, RCA 6080's are cheap and plentiful, so I would go with that it you just want to test only.  Or, if you want a solid backup to your 5998, then there's Tung-Sol 7236's..  As for 1, I wouldn't burn-in a power tube and leave this amp unattended unless you have fire insurance .  Anyways, if you did the Fitz mod and still hear noise, then it is likely you have busted power tube.



Yes, I think I will get a cheap power tube to test. I have the OEM 6SN7 and swapping it in didn't take the hum out so I suspect it's the power tube. 
Definitely, wasn't planning to burn in the power tube. Seems like a recipe for burning down the house.


----------



## toufeeq

Xibipiio said:


> Oh man, sorry about that...for a minute there I thought we’d solved it. All I know to do is swap in new tubes and see if it helps.


I used the DV for around 5 hours yesterday and the hum is now considerably reduced. So maybe the burn-in is probably the best option here.


----------



## JKDJedi

toufeeq said:


> I used the DV for around 5 hours yesterday and the hum is now considerably reduced. So maybe the burn-in is probably the best option here.


And if you change your mind the offer is still up for me to test that out for you. My tests last for a year or so ...


----------



## toufeeq

JKDJedi said:


> And if you change your mind the offer is still up for me to test that out for you. My tests last for a year or so ...


Hah! I will keep that in mind.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> And if you change your mind the offer is still up for me to test that out for you. My tests last for a year or so ...




Only one year???...that is a very irresponsible tube tester, trust me. 

Be sure to send the tube to me instead, I will test it for 3 years and make sure I run it everyday...


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Only one year???...that is a very irresponsible tube tester, trust me.
> 
> Be sure to send the tube to me instead, I will test it for 3 years and make sure I run it everyday...


L M F A O ....


----------



## Gallic Dweller

toufeeq,
the Fitzmod should have been your the first thing to do. I get the feeling that a lot of you don't want to get into soldering. The Fitz mod is not hard at all and there are lots of visuals to look at at on You Tube. You would be surprised how buying a decent solder station can save you lots of money used to remedy non audio problems.

The one small sweet spot - use resistors to attenuate the pot/get rid of the pot and install a 50K Alps Blue transforming the sound by shunting the pot with Z foil resistors, take a look at www.world-designs.co.uk FAQ section, very clear instructions, do not use an Alps Blue by itself - you will be disappointed/buy one of Valab 23 step attenuators around $20. Get rid of the hum and open up the D/V with one of the pot options - then you will know just what the D/V is capable of.


----------



## toufeeq

Gallic Dweller said:


> toufeeq,
> the Fitzmod should have been your the first thing to do. I get the feeling that a lot of you don't want to get into soldering. The Fitz mod is not hard at all and there are lots of visuals to look at at on You Tube. You would be surprised how buying a decent solder station can save you lots of money used to remedy non audio problems.
> 
> The one small sweet spot - use resistors to attenuate the pot/get rid of the pot and install a 50K Alps Blue transforming the sound by shunting the pot with Z foil resistors, take a look at www.world-designs.co.uk FAQ section, very clear instructions, do not use an Alps Blue by itself - you will be disappointed/buy one of Valab 23 step attenuators around $20. Get rid of the hum and open up the D/V with one of the pot options - then you will know just what the D/V is capable of.



Thank You. I have done soldering in the past so I can definitely do it. The real problem is that there are no real good instructions on doing the Fitz mod online. There are bunch of threads on Head-fi and some pics on Google Images. Everyone seems to be talking about this mythical process but nobody actually has instructions on doing it. Just for that I'm tempted to put together a HOWTO on this if I can kinda piece together all the info.


----------



## toufeeq

I'm curious if anyone has tried a power conditioner to solve the hum problem. A few threads on massdrop forums seem to suggest a power conditioner solves the issue.


----------



## Keno18

toufeeq said:


> I'm curious if anyone has tried a power conditioner to solve the hum problem. A few threads on massdrop forums seem to suggest a power conditioner solves the issue.


I have the Furman M-8X2. It made no difference.


----------



## toufeeq

OK, I think I made some great progress here. I burned in the power and the driver tube for around 20 hours and my ears can hardly pick out the hum now. If I listen really really hard in a completely silent room I can make out a faint hum but it's no where close to how "bright" it was when I first started posting about it. The good thing is I got 20 hours of music listening out of it and didn't have to leave it running overnight as my suspicion was that the hum was originating from the power tube.

Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## DenverW

Last night I spent about an hour running a 7236 Tung sol power tube with a Tung sol black plate 12bh7a (on a 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter from eBay).  

Very nice!  This outperformed my Tung sol brown base 6SN7WGTA I had been testing the night before, and found a bit treble harsh.  The combo did not go quite as sub bass deep as the best 6sn7 tubes, but had a good controlled bass.  Mid range was the highlight, as it was just that slight bit forward that I enjoy for my 80s alternative music.  Clarity, tonality, and separation were all on the level as high end 6sn7 tubes.  Leaned a bit more towards musical rather than analytical.

Over the next week I’m going to be trying out some different adapters and tubes; and although I’m not the best at describing and reviewing, I’ll post what impressions I can.

This tube was $10.50 on eBay.  For the cost it now ranks as one of my highest quality to price tubes.  Th adapter was from a seller named Xulingers (good response time and no doa adapters yet).


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 7, 2019)

Gallic Dweller said:


> toufeeq,
> the Fitzmod should have been your the first thing to do. I get the feeling that a lot of you don't want to get into soldering. The Fitz mod is not hard at all and there are lots of visuals to look at at on You Tube. You would be surprised how buying a decent solder station can save you lots of money used to remedy non audio problems.
> 
> The one small sweet spot - use resistors to attenuate the pot/get rid of the pot and install a 50K Alps Blue transforming the sound by shunting the pot with Z foil resistors, take a look at www.world-designs.co.uk FAQ section, very clear instructions, do not use an Alps Blue by itself - you will be disappointed/buy one of Valab 23 step attenuators around $20. Get rid of the hum and open up the D/V with one of the pot options - then you will know just what the D/V is capable of.


My understanding is that all the mod does is get rid of the initial hum, that no audio gains are to be had, that in reality the lower end is minimised, that's what I'm getting from threads I've read on the subject. Anybody here who's done the mod experience that?


----------



## DenverW

Today I received my 7193 to 6sn7 adapter...and this one actually works!  My initial thoughts: high marks to clarity and separation.  I’m not sold on tonality yet, but the Ken rad 7193 I’m listening to with a 7236 tung sol power tube has a wide range, well defined.

Based on the sound of both the 12bh7a I’ve been listening to, and my initial impressions on these, I would wonder why so many are paying so much for some 6sn7 tubes.  There is tremendous value in some of these less expensive options.  The adapter and the 2x 7193 cost me a total of $35, and it’s compatible with the more expensive 6sn7 options.  Also, it looks cool.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 9, 2019)

DenverW said:


> Today I received my 7193 to 6sn7 adapter...and this one actually works!  My initial thoughts: high marks to clarity and separation.  I’m not sold on tonality yet, but the Ken rad 7193 I’m listening to with a 7236 tung sol power tube has a wide range, well defined.
> 
> Based on the sound of both the 12bh7a I’ve been listening to, and my initial impressions on these, I would wonder why so many are paying so much for some 6sn7 tubes.  There is tremendous value in some of these less expensive options.  The adapter and the 2x 7193 cost me a total of $35, and it’s compatible with the more expensive 6sn7 options.  Also, it looks cool.


Yeah some of these tubes like the 7N7 are outstanding bargains, add the Fotons in there too, both are almost carbon copy in sound save the headroom soundstage to the 7N7.  I'm curious about these cute little ( yellow minions) tubes, might grab the same ken rads, last time I looked thats all there was but Ken Rads, and I'm also curious as to which "expensive" tubes (in your possession) are you comparing these too?


----------



## DenverW

I haven’t determined my overall preference, but I’ve been doing comparisons with tung sol mouse ears, Ken rad vt 231, rca grey glass, and sylvania 3 hole bad boys.  The Ken rad 7193, tung sol 12bh7a, and Phillips/amperex e80cc are all at least in the mix.  It’s just yet to be determined where


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I haven’t determined my overall preference, but I’ve been doing comparisons with tung sol mouse ears, Ken rad vt 231, rca grey glass, and sylvania 3 hole bad boys.  The Ken rad 7193, tung sol 12bh7a, and Phillips/amperex e80cc are all at least in the mix.  It’s just yet to be determined where


Outstanding mix there. And for $35? The adapter itself is near that alone from what I'm seeing on eBay...  You got a steal there. Nice grab! Where did you grab your adapter from? I'm afraid of the Chfi ones.


----------



## DenverW

Every adapter I've purchased from "Xulingmrs" has worked flawlessly; ebay seller.  Takes about 2 weeks to arrive, since its from hong kong/china, but no issues.  I've purchased one from ak_somthing_flagship_store and not only did it not work (huge distortion at the 9 pm mark) but they were annoying as anything about getting my refund.  Never going back to them again.  When I purchased the adapter was 23 and the tubes were 12, so its not thaaaat far off, but it does look like the price went up a small amount.  I've become pretty good on the whole ebay thing, just takes patience.  I got my Ken Rad vt 231 for 30, because it has a broken center guide post.  Doesn't effect anything, I just have to make sure I line it up properly.  Of all the tubes and adapters I've bought on ebay, only 2 have been faulty, and they both were refunded.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Every adapter I've purchased from "Xulingmrs" has worked flawlessly; ebay seller.  Takes about 2 weeks to arrive, since its from hong kong/china, but no issues.  I've purchased one from ak_somthing_flagship_store and not only did it not work (huge distortion at the 9 pm mark) but they were annoying as anything about getting my refund.  Never going back to them again.  When I purchased the adapter was 23 and the tubes were 12, so its not thaaaat far off, but it does look like the price went up a small amount.  I've become pretty good on the whole ebay thing, just takes patience.  I got my Ken Rad vt 231 for 30, because it has a broken center guide post.  Doesn't effect anything, I just have to make sure I line it up properly.  Of all the tubes and adapters I've bought on ebay, only 2 have been faulty, and they both were refunded.


Thanks, I'll have to give Xuling another shot.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, I'll have to give Xuling another shot.



Yeah. I got my adapters from xulingmrs as well...no problems and reasonable shipping time considering.


----------



## DenverW (Nov 10, 2019)

On to my 2nd pair of 7193, the National Union.  My impression after the 1st hour:  these may be the best tubes I've heard yet.  More to come.

edit: going to see if a CV6 tube will work with the adapter.  Have a pair from Mullard on the way.


----------



## cddc (Nov 11, 2019)

Got my Tung-Sol round plates 6SN7GT...Oh boy...it is simply the best 6SN7 ever made, period!

There is no way my Brimar 6SN7GT can compete with it. Price-wise they're similar, but TS round plates is way way way better, super clarity, super stage, super separation, super bass, man, this is simply the best 6SN7!


----------



## cddc

Wait...I haven't heard the ECC32 and B65 yet, so take it with a grain of salt


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Toufeeq and others,
For all those who really want to get the best from their D/V 336 go to the Rock Grotto forum -look for the  h/amp forum, in search, put in Dark Voice 336 and you will find a 3 page thread that covers all you need to know about the D/V, on Pinterest you will see the Fitz and Pink Floyd mods.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 11, 2019)

cddc said:


> Got my Tung-Sol round plates 6SN7GT...Oh boy...it is simply the best 6SN7 ever made, period!
> 
> There is no way my Brimar 6SN7GT can compete with it. Price-wise they're similar, but TS round plates is way way way better, super clarity, super stage, super separation, super bass, man, this is simply the best 6SN7!


Congrats! I take it the TS plays well on the Darkvoice....NICE.  (PICS PLEASE OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN)


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 11, 2019)

Gallic Dweller said:


> Toufeeq and others,
> For all those who really want to get the best from their D/V 336 go to the Rock Grotto forum -look for the  h/amp forum, in search, put in Dark Voice 336 and you will find a 3 page thread that covers all you need to know about the D/V, on Pinterest you will see the Fitz and Pink Floyd mods.


Pink Floyd Mod ...that's new... thanks, ill take a peek. (and three pages of info...thats insane) Joking...hey ther'e more than 3 pages here boss, take a read guys, lots of interesting stuff here..did I get the right link GLLIC dWEller? ---->  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/board/8/headphone-amplifier-forum?q=Darkvoice+336 And the user PinkFloyd Mod, that's very interesting, almost looks like the Fitz mod, but I don't really know, seems like replcaing said caps lowers the frequency range for 32ohm headphones down below 20hrtz...now thats proper... as it is now the stock caps were set for 300ohm headphones, which solidifies my original thought that the Darkvoice excels with high impedance headphones. very interesting. ( I can see now how users revel in said mods if they don't own high impedance headphones) Having said that the only low impedance headphone that plays well for me with the Darkone is my Fedelio X2, would a PinkFloyd mod enhance this experience? Maybe, as it is now, highly enjoyable.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Congrats! I take it the TS plays well on the Darkvoice....NICE.  (PICS PLEASE OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN)




Thanks. So here comes the photo ....

I am 100% sure it will play well on DV too. It is a true legendary.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Thanks. So here comes the photo ....
> 
> I am 100% sure it will play well on DV too. It is a true legendary.


Love it! Where did you grab this baby at?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Love it! Where did you grab this baby at?



A friend has couple of these in his stash, and I robbed him....


----------



## DenverW

So I’ve been on an adapter craze lately, and had been testing some 6f8g tubes with pretty good results.

Most recently I’ve tried the 6C8G Tung sol round plate.  I’ve had very good results.  Very good.  . Now the scuttlebutt is that this tube is sonically similar or even potentially identical to its 6sn7 brother, but I don’t have a comparison tube.  Has anyone done a comparison?  I found the tube from an eBay seller that was selling different 6C8G tubes, for a whopping cost of $25.  There are others available for higher cost, but well well under the 6sn7 rate.

If we can confirm the Sonics this may be a real bargain out there, only needing the 6f8g adapter.

quick edit:  it did take a full two days of burn in, started with a huge left channel hum.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> So I’ve been on an adapter craze lately, and had been testing some 6f8g tubes with pretty good results.
> 
> Most recently I’ve tried the 6C8G Tung sol round plate.  I’ve had very good results.  Very good.  . Now the scuttlebutt is that this tube is sonically similar or even potentially identical to its 6sn7 brother, but I don’t have a comparison tube.  Has anyone done a comparison?  I found the tube from an eBay seller that was selling different 6C8G tubes, for a whopping cost of $25.  There are others available for higher cost, but well well under the 6sn7 rate.
> 
> ...


Yes these came out before the 6SN7 tubes and do sound spectacular, I just have the Sylvania version and would love to have the Tung Sol version of that tube only they go for roughly $120+ whenever I'm in the hunt, if you got that tube for $25 that's a huge score there buddy, Kudos!


----------



## DenverW

The seller still has three other types up for $25.  I think with patience they’re out there for a deal; or at least a lot less than ts 6sn7 round plates, those are astronomical right now!


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> So I’ve been on an adapter craze lately, and had been testing some 6f8g tubes with pretty good results.
> 
> Most recently I’ve tried the 6C8G Tung sol round plate.  I’ve had very good results.  Very good.  . Now the scuttlebutt is that this tube is sonically similar or even potentially identical to its 6sn7 brother, but I don’t have a comparison tube.  Has anyone done a comparison?  I found the tube from an eBay seller that was selling different 6C8G tubes, for a whopping cost of $25.  There are others available for higher cost, but well well under the 6sn7 rate.
> 
> ...



6C8G has a gain of 36, almost twice the gain of 6SN7 or 6F8G, so it is closer 6SL7.

So I doubt it will sound similar to 6SN7 or 6F8G. If you like the sound of 6C8G, you can possibly also try 6SL7 (assuming your amp can take 6C8G or 6SL7).


----------



## Slade01

DenverW said:


> So I’ve been on an adapter craze lately, and had been testing some 6f8g tubes with pretty good results.
> 
> Most recently I’ve tried the 6C8G Tung sol round plate.  I’ve had very good results.  Very good.  . Now the scuttlebutt is that this tube is sonically similar or even potentially identical to its 6sn7 brother, but I don’t have a comparison tube.  Has anyone done a comparison?  I found the tube from an eBay seller that was selling different 6C8G tubes, for a whopping cost of $25.  There are others available for higher cost, but well well under the 6sn7 rate.
> 
> ...



Do you have a Tung Sol 6F8G round plate? I've to date never seen them, only ladder plates which I have, but sonically, they do sound very similar to the Tung Sol Mouse ears 6SN7.  Lol.  the 6C8Gs you can still get for a bargain, but the 6F8Gs/VT-99 have caught up in pricing, they can also reach high up there in the stratosphere for sure as well depending on the ones worth geting.


----------



## DenverW

Slade01 said:


> Do you have a Tung Sol 6F8G round plate? I've to date never seen them, only ladder plates which I have, but sonically, they do sound very similar to the Tung Sol Mouse ears 6SN7.  Lol.  the 6C8Gs you can still get for a bargain, but the 6F8Gs/VT-99 have caught up in pricing, they can also reach high up there in the stratosphere for sure as well depending on the ones worth geting.




Just the round plate 6c8g.  I wish I had a 6sn7 to compare it to.  Sounds excellent.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Do you have a Tung Sol 6F8G round plate? I've to date never seen them, only ladder plates which I have, but sonically, they do sound very similar to the Tung Sol Mouse ears 6SN7.  Lol.  the 6C8Gs you can still get for a bargain, but the 6F8Gs/VT-99 have caught up in pricing, they can also reach high up there in the stratosphere for sure as well depending on the ones worth geting.


That's what I meant, the CF8G Tung Sols... Keep forgetting there's 6C8Gs out there. Would love to have the round plate Tung Sol CF8G, that would be the cats meow.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> That's what I meant, the CF8G Tung Sols... Keep forgetting there's 6C8Gs out there. Would love to have the round plate Tung Sol CF8G, that would be the cats meow.



Well if anyone can find them, its you JKDJedi a.k.a. The Tube Hunter.  I'm still impressed at the speed you found a genuine Lansdale.   That was really really impressive.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Well if anyone can find them, its you JKDJedi a.k.a. The Tube Hunter.  I'm still impressed at the speed you found a genuine Lansdale.   That was really really impressive.


Lol... Thanks. Maybe after the holidays, they have me on lockdown at the moment.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

I bought into the 6F8G TS RPs a long time ago. Those who have both this and the 6SN7 of these say that the earlier 6F8G is a tad better as I don't have both I cannot verify this. What  I do know is that the RPs from Tung Sol that I do have including the 6SL7 are head and shoulders above any other tubes in their type. I have National Union RPs as well. Yes them TS go for a lot of money but if you don't drive them hard they will last and last unlike power tubes. The 6F8G excel in every dept and they are so organic. In my Bada hybrid amps the preamp section uses 3 tubes - 1 driver and 2 o/put. I use the TS as driver and 2 Russian 1578 as o/put.

This combo was many years ago the end game for me, I've never heard a tube combo anywhere near this sound. As I have quite a few of these TS I tried using 3 in the Bada amps, it is an overwhelming organic and emotional sound with acoustic music totally involving.For most music the TS/1578 is still the best. I'm still looking at different o/put tubes for the D/V.

I'll bet that many would really like the Russian mil.spec 1578, like the 6F8G they are no longer cheap. Around the millenium both could be bought for pennies. If anyone does fancy trying the 1578 be very careful, there are lots of scammers trying to sell you the cheap as chips standard Russian tubes, they never show you a full on shot of the ladders - caveat emptor.


----------



## JKDJedi

Seems like I have enough tubes to light up a Christmas Tree...


----------



## DenverW

So what strange tube variant is on the agenda tonight, you ask?  Why, its the Mullard Black Plate CV6!  This tube is the british military tube based on the 7193 that is getting some love (i'm a pretty huge fan of the national union).  The tubes work with the same adapter, however the top connectors are reversed from the 7193 connection.  My first impression:  BASS.  These guys easily rival some of the bassier 6SN7 varients such as a Ken Rad for low end.  In my limited listening tube I can already tell this is going to be a great tube!  Not the prettiest...but we don't listen with our eyes, right?


----------



## cddc

Mullard tubes seem to have attractive mids and low end. 

I'd like to try a Mullard ECC32 (many report punchy bass with it), but the price is astronomical...


----------



## DenverW

Cost wise these adapters I’ve been playing with are worth their weight in gold.  6SN7 tubes are just so pricey for the high end popular ones.  I would certainly lay recommend getting a 7193 or 6f8g to 6sn7 adapter and trying some of the less expensive variants.  Each of the 7193/cv6 pairs I’ve found have all been under $30 for the pair, and they’re no slouches.


----------



## cddc

I've got too many 6SN7 tubes to try......my next target is a Tung Sol 5998 or WE/TS 421A power tube.

The power tube in your pic above seems to be a 5998, is it?

PS: mind letting me know around how much you paid for your 421A @JKDJedi  ?


----------



## DenverW

cddc said:


> I've got too many 6SN7 tubes to try......my next target is a Tung Sol 5998 or WE/TS 421A power tube.
> 
> The power tube in your pic above seems to be a 5998, is it?
> 
> PS: mind letting me know around how much you paid for your 421A @JKDJedi  ?



Yes it’s a 5998; I’m a big fan of that tube.  All my current power tubes are tung sol: a 5998, a 6as7g, and a 7236.  I have a gec 6as7g on the way from a trade, so that may uproot the tung sol trifecta.  I can find 5998 for around $125...those 421a though....that’s too steep for me


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> Yes it’s a 5998; I’m a big fan of that tube.  All my current power tubes are tung sol: a 5998, a 6as7g, and a 7236.  I have a gec 6as7g on the way from a trade, so that may uproot the tung sol trifecta.  I can find 5998 for around $125...those 421a though....that’s too steep for me



I don't think 421a is too steep for you, since your gec 6as7g is on its way...LOL.......nice shot bro btw...let us know how you like the Holy Grail gec 6as7g 

I'm not so impressed with Tung Sol 6AS7G, but a Tung Sol 5998 may change my view towards Tung Sol, we'll see...


----------



## DenverW

It’s a straight brown base, not the curved, and I traded into it too, so that helped.  It’s gonna take a while to get to me, looks like it won’t ship till next Saturday.  Right now I’m eyeballing a pair of hytron vt 232 to try .


----------



## cddc

I read the difference between brown straight and curve base is small to none...there is even black straight base gec 6as7g.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I've got too many 6SN7 tubes to try......my next target is a Tung Sol 5998 or WE/TS 421A power tube.
> 
> The power tube in your pic above seems to be a 5998, is it?
> 
> PS: mind letting me know around how much you paid for your 421A @JKDJedi  ?


Not for what they're going now.... $300 is a lot for a 421a. I'd like to have a 5998 myself, just for keeps sake.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Not for what they're going now.... $300 is a lot for a 421a. I'd like to have a 5998 myself, just for keeps sake.



421A is a better 5998, no need to waste money on an inferior 421A, save the money for a GEC 6AS7G or TS 6SN7 RP, buddy


----------



## Jared S

What power tube is best? 6as7, 6080, or what do you guys recommend?


----------



## DenverW

Jared S said:


> What power tube is best? 6as7, 6080, or what do you guys recommend?



that’s a tough question because it’s subjective.  “Best” would probably be a curved brown base gec 6as7g.  But do you want to spend $300+ on one tube?

tung sol makes good power tubes, 5998, 6080, 6as7g, 7236.  A good inexpensive option is the rca 6as7g.  If you google 6as7 tubes compared you can find several good reference pages.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> that’s a tough question because it’s subjective.  “Best” would probably be a curved brown base gec 6as7g.  But do you want to spend $300+ on one tube?
> 
> tung sol makes good power tubes, 5998, 6080, 6as7g, 7236.  A good inexpensive option is the rca 6as7g.  If you google 6as7 tubes compared you can find several good reference pages.


The crowd favorite is the Tung Sol 7236, and yes to all of the above.. RCA a good choice too, for the monies (between the two) I'd give the edge to the TungSol 7236, plays very well with the Dark One...


----------



## Jared S

Thanks for the info! I found these. Are they any good?

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/CV2984-6080...19E/372737916263?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/JAN-6080WC-...nce/264523632209?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> Thanks for the info! I found these. Are they any good?
> 
> https://www.ebay.ph/itm/CV2984-6080...19E/372737916263?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
> 
> https://www.ebay.ph/itm/JAN-6080WC-...nce/264523632209?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144


Get the Mullard, very clean sounding tube!


----------



## DenverW

Skip the Raytheon for sure, the mullard is a better sounding tube.


----------



## DenverW

Here is one to look At:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-TUNG-...MkAAOSwxH1dtccJ:sc:USPSFirstClass!92120!US!-1

Price is ok, not great, not bad.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Here is one to look At:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-TUNG-...MkAAOSwxH1dtccJ:sc:USPSFirstClass!92120!US!-1
> 
> Price is ok, not great, not bad.


Price is great, seen them above $100.  Grab the Mullard and this one!!


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> Price is great, seen them above $100.  Grab the Mullard and this one!!




I must be super frugal .

Honestly for power tubes I only have 4-5 right now.  I have many more input tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I must be super frugal .
> 
> Honestly for power tubes I only have 4-5 right now.  I have many more input tubes.


Lol... Same here, more 6080's than I need really. Regret selling my RCAs  and the one Cwinged I have is rarely used.


----------



## DenverW

For power tubes I have a tung sol 5998, 6as7g, and 7236, and I just traded for a gec straight base 6as7g.

For input tubes...different story.  A whole array of 6sn7 and three adapters along with different tube types: 12au7, 12bh7, E80CC, 6f8g, 6C8G, 7193, cv6, e1148...


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> For power tubes I have a tung sol 5998, 6as7g, and 7236, and I just traded for a gec straight base 6as7g.
> 
> For input tubes...different story.  A whole array of 6sn7 and three adapters along with different tube types: 12au7, 12bh7, E80CC, 6f8g, 6C8G, 7193, cv6, e1148...


Hows the GEC compare to the Tung Sols?


----------



## DenverW

I’ll need a bit more time on that one.  The gec I have does need more time to warm up, I get a right channel crackle for at least the 1st 20 minutes.  Hopefully this will go away in time. 

It’s a very pretty tube, that’s for sure, the orange glow is more pronounced.  I think the main difference so far is more pronounced layering.  I can pick out instrument separation a little easier.  Very similar overall.  I would not pay market prices for it, compared to prices of the other popular power tubes.


----------



## Jared S

DenverW said:


> Here is one to look At:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-TUNG-...MkAAOSwxH1dtccJ:sc:USPSFirstClass!92120!US!-1
> 
> Price is ok, not great, not bad.



This hobby is getting expensive!


----------



## Keno18

Jared S said:


> This hobby is getting expensive!


If you want to start off light Sylvania 6as7ga's can be found for $10 plus 7.50 shipping on ebay. I bought 2 and they sound better than my Vali 2 which is saying something.


----------



## Slade01

Jared S said:


> This hobby is getting expensive!



I came across these if you are looking for an inexpensive 7236.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuu...835508?hash=item2f39c773b4:g:WF0AAOSwDnpd2bqh


----------



## Keno18

I'm thinking of upgrading to the Sennheiser HD660s but I'm concerned about the 150 ohm impedance. I want to stay with the DV which likes high impedance 'phones. Does anyone have direct experience with this combination?


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 4, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> I'm thinking of upgrading to the Sennheiser HD660s but I'm concerned about the 150 ohm impedance. I want to stay with the DV which likes high impedance 'phones. Does anyone have direct experience with this combination?



On occasion, I listen with my Audeze EL-8 and Grado SR80e both 32 ohms impedence and they sound just fine on the darkvoice.


----------



## DenverW

Keno18 said:


> I'm thinking of upgrading to the Sennheiser HD660s but I'm concerned about the 150 ohm impedance. I want to stay with the DV which likes high impedance 'phones. Does anyone have direct experience with this combination?


I don’t have direct experience, but from everything I’ve read it seems that the 650 or 6xx matches very well and is significantly less expensive.  

I’ve tried both the 6xx and 800s and they both do great.  Also the 250 ohm or above beyers do well.  I have a dt990, and while it’s not as good as the senns imho it’s still a great headphone for around $100.


----------



## Keno18

DenverW said:


> I don’t have direct experience, but from everything I’ve read it seems that the 650 or 6xx matches very well and is significantly less expensive.
> 
> I’ve tried both the 6xx and 800s and they both do great.  Also the 250 ohm or above beyers do well.  I have a dt990, and while it’s not as good as the senns imho it’s still a great headphone for around $100.


I already run the 6xx's and am very happy with the sound. But I'm sure you know the feeling of what if there's better out there. It's like an itch that wants to be scratched.


----------



## Keno18

Slade01 said:


> On occasion, I listen with my Audeze EL-8 and Grado SR80e both 32ohms impedence and they sound just fine on the darkvoice.


Good to hear that, thanks.I feel a bit more comfortable with the idea.


----------



## sennfan83261

Keno18 said:


> Good to hear that, thanks.I feel a bit more comfortable with the idea.


I tried running a Grado HF-3 (32 ohms impedance) through my DV336SE (National Union 6F8G + Tung-Sol 7236) (+Fitz mod), and it sounded like ass.  The bass was there, but the upper mids and treble were severely dampened, almost like a massive suckout.  As a result, my Darkvoice made the HF-3's sound hollow.


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> I tried running a Grado HF-3 (32 ohms impedance) through my DV336SE (National Union 6F8G + Tung-Sol 7236) (+Fitz mod), and it sounded like ass.  The bass was there, but the upper mids and treble were severely dampened, almost like a massive suckout.  As a result, my Darkvoice made the HF-3's sound hollow.


Okay, we have a no vote. At least for very low impedances. This is why I asked. Is 150 ohms enough?


----------



## DenverW

Keno18 said:


> Good to hear that, thanks.I feel a bit more comfortable with the idea.


Boy do I ever understand that!  The ‘could it sound better?’ bug is a dangerous one.  The dark voice is powerful enough to run pretty much anything, but it’s impedance, like a lot of otl amps (such as the crack) pairs better with higher impedance headphones.

When audeze has their recent sale I was thinking about a classic for under $500.  Great deal!  But I held out because as much as I want them to have them, they just won’t be what they should with my current set up.

My advice if you’re looking at the upgrade bug is to skip the 660 and 700 and wait till you’ve saved for an hd800 or hd800s.  Other options that cost less but sound good are the Beyerdynamic line up: 990, 1990, amiron home.  I actually really liked the comfort and sound of the amiron home.  Even slightly more than the hd600, which were my previous favorite.

Again, only you know what you like.  There is no wrong move.  Just don’t over pay in case you need to resell something.


----------



## Keno18

DenverW said:


> Boy do I ever understand that!  The ‘could it sound better?’ bug is a dangerous one.  The dark voice is powerful enough to run pretty much anything, but it’s impedance, like a lot of otl amps (such as the crack) pairs better with higher impedance headphones.
> 
> When audeze has their recent sale I was thinking about a classic for under $500.  Great deal!  But I held out because as much as I want them to have them, they just won’t be what they should with my current set up.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the solid advice. Okay, I'll keep looking. I'm not in a rush as I said I'm happy with what I have, I just don't want to make an expensive mistake.


----------



## Slade01

Keno18 said:


> Good to hear that, thanks.I feel a bit more comfortable with the idea.





Keno18 said:


> Okay, we have a no vote. At least for very low impedances. This is why I asked. Is 150 ohms enough?



Others do have a point.  If youre gonna try a new headphone, might as well shoot for a high impedance headphone - skipping to the hd800 or the higher end beyers (1990, Amiron) are probably a better path.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Dec 4, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Okay, we have a no vote. At least for very low impedances. This is why I asked. Is 150 ohms enough?


Output impedance of the Darkvoice 336SE has been measured on ASR as being above 70ohms (variable across different frequencies).  I personally would shoot for high impedance headphones with impedances of 300ohms and up like the HD600, HD650 (HD6XX), HD800(S), or any of Beyerdynamic, and older AKG offerings.


----------



## Keno18

Slade01 said:


> Others do have a point.  If youre gonna try a new headphone, might as well shoot for a high impedance headphone - skipping to the hd800 or the higher end beyers (1990, Amiron) are probably a better path.


Ok, it's official. I'm holding out for better.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Output impedance of the Darkvoice 336SE has been measured on ASR as being above 70ohms (variable across different frequencies).  I personally would shoot after high impedance headphones with impedances of 300ohms and up like the HD600, HD650 (HD6XX), HD800(S), or any of Beyerdynamic, and older AKG offerings.



So do your HE-500 / HE-6 cans also not sound good on the DV?


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> Output impedance of the Darkvoice 336SE has been measured on ASR as being above 70ohms (variable across different frequencies).  I personally would shoot after high impedance headphones with impedances of 300ohms and up like the HD600, HD650 (HD6XX), HD800(S), or any of Beyerdynamic, and older AKG offerings.


So I assume 150 ohms is doable. But I think I'll stick with 300 or above.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Dec 4, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> So I assume 150 ohms is doable. But I think I'll stick with 300 or above.


I tried my AKG K501's (120ohms) across different tube pairings on my Darkvoice 336SE (mostly, Sylvania 6SN7GTA + RCA 6AS7G) and came away unimpressed compared to the Magni 3 and THX AAA 789 (1/4" TRS for both).  It sounded a bit softer than the solid states, a bit more limp.  I do not mean to discount what other's have experienced, it is just that, in my hands, my DV336SE appears not to pair well with lower impedance cans.  Please don't feel like I'm dumping on the Darkvoice, as here and elsewhere I have praised its performance when paired with the HD650 (HD6XX in my case).  The HD6XX+DV336SE (non-stock tubes) is audio bliss IMO.

EDIT:  For lower impedance cans, there's the Darkvoice's big brother: La Figaro 339.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Dec 4, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> So do your HE-500 / HE-6 cans also not sound good on the DV?


Personally, I haven't tried either of them on my Darkvoice yet.  I just purchased my HE-6 recently, and they have taken over my HE-500 as my daily driver.  I like the HE-6 on my THX AAA 789 (3.5W at 50ohms), but I ordered a Crown power amp (D-75A, 55W at 4ohms, guesstimating 13W at 50ohms) that is on its way right now.  Prior to the HE-6, my HE-500 was my daily driver for several months, especially after getting a beefy solid state like the THX AAA 789, hence my absence here to the relief of my wallet, lol.  Anyways, I can try them out and tell you guys what I think about them on the Darkvoice.

Also, Yuking has this under its product description for the La Figaro 339: "It's been well documented that the La Figaro 339 can be an excellent match for lower impedance headphones such as the HiFiMan HE-500's".


----------



## Keno18

sennfan83261 said:


> I tried my AKG K501's (120ohms) across different tube pairings on my Darkvoice 336SE (mostly, Sylvania 6SN7GTA + RCA 6AS7G) and came away unimpressed compared to the Magni 3 and THX AAA 789 (1/4" TRS for both).  It sounded a bit softer than the solid states, a bit more limp.  I do not mean to discount what other's have experienced, it is just that, in my hands, my DV336SE appears not to pair well with lower impedance cans.  Please don't feel like I'm dumping on the Darkvoice, as here and elsewhere I have praised its performance when paired with the HD650 (HD6XX in my case).  The HD6XX+DV336SE (non-stock tubes) is audio bliss IMO.
> 
> EDIT:  For lower impedance cans, there's the Darkvoice's big brother: La Figaro 339.


That seems to be the consensus. I'll wait.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Personally, I haven't tried either of them on my Darkvoice yet.  I just purchased my HE-6 recently, and they have taken over my HE-500 as my daily driver.  I like the HE-6 on my THX AAA 789 (3.5W at 50ohms), but I ordered a Crown power amp (D-75A, 55W at 4ohms, guesstimating 13W at 50ohms) that is on its way right now.  Prior to the HE-6, my HE-500 was my daily driver for several months, especially after getting a beefy solid state like the THX AAA 789, hence my absence here to the relief of my wallet, lol.  Anyways, I can try them out and tell you guys what I think about them on the Darkvoice.
> 
> Also, Yuking has this under its product description for the La Figaro 339: "It's been well documented that the La Figaro 339 can be an excellent match for lower impedance headphones such as the HiFiMan HE-500's".



Thanks - I was just curious especially with how planar magnetic headphones sound on the DV.  I know in the past when doing research on the DV - it was quite a given that low impedance, and to a degree, alot of planar headphones are not a good match with the darkvoice (OTL).  In a similar fashion, I use my EL-8 and Grados with the Atom normally instead of the DV.  I actually almost blew out my Grados on the DV when i first tried them...I literally have to turn the knob way down on the DV when using them with my low impedence cans.  That being said, the EL-8 did sound good on the DV (though better on the atom).  

Though im still with the consensus, my 6xx are still my daily on the DV.  It still is pretty much one of those perfect matches.


----------



## DenverW

Zmf has some pretty great higher impedance cans as well.  High cost, though.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Dec 5, 2019)

Welp, I just tried out my HE-500 and HE-6 on my Darkvoice, swapped them back and forth between the DV336SE and my THX AAA 789 (balanced), and...








... what others said about low impedance planars paired with the Darkvoice is true unfortunately.  I used a Sylvania 6SN7GTA ('54 extensive getter covering the top and sides) plus a Tung-Sol 7236 as my tubes.  The bass of the HE-500 and the HE-6 sounded neutered on the Darkvoice, which was why the treble sounded a bit airier than usual when I started listening.  The famed lushness of HE-500's mids were lost on the Darkvoice and the soundstage sounded more closed-in once the now-dry mids entered the picture and there was a roundness on its outer edges, as if one was listening in a fishbowl.  As for the HE-6, like the HE-500, they can play loud on the Darkvoice (albeit requiring far more volume than the HE-500), but I'm afraid that distortion will kick in one you start cranking up DV's volume.  With the bass severely rolled-off, the HE-6 sounded reedy and thin.  However, I believe that the HE-500 was more negatively impacted by the Darkvoice than the HE-6, which might hint at how the HE-6 could still be underamped with 3.5W at 50ohms provided by the THX AAA 789 (insane)!  I have a 55W Crown D-75A power amp coming on Monday (~13W at 50ohms, maybe), so we'll see.

As for the Darkvoice, low impedance planars are a no-go (LCD-4 at 200ohms impedance anyone?).  But, I still love the Darkvoice paired with my HD6XX.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> I came across these if you are looking for an inexpensive 7236.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuu...835508?hash=item2f39c773b4:g:WF0AAOSwDnpd2bqh




Good find, but they are not Tung Sol 7236's. The tubes in the link are Cetron 7236's, which have circular top getters while Tung Sol 7236's have square top getters.

Anohter inexpensive 7236 is Sylvania 7236:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SY...ETTERS-METAL-BASE-5998-6AS7-7236/293039451056


----------



## Jared S (Dec 5, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Get the Mullard, very clean sounding tube!


 

I bought a mullard tube but somehow its not working. Can tubes be fixed?


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> Good find, but they are not Tung Sol 7236's. The tubes in the link are Cetron 7236's, which have circular top getters while Tung Sol 7236's have square top getters.
> 
> Anohter inexpensive 7236 is Sylvania 7236:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SY...ETTERS-METAL-BASE-5998-6AS7-7236/293039451056



Yeah I know.   But Cetron did acquire Tung Sol Tubes and continued to produce them into the 80s.  So they should still be close in design/production. This is the budget minded pick in my opinion being half the cost of the current tung sol 7236 pricing right now. 

The Sylvania looks good too.  Have you had experience with them?  I don't hear alot about the Sylvania 7236.


----------



## DenverW

Jared S said:


> I bought a mullard tube but somehow its not working. Can tubes be fixed?



If a tube isn’t powering up it is probably dead.  You can try cleaning the connections but I doubt that would help.  Try to get a refund from the seller.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> If a tube isn’t powering up it is probably dead.  You can try cleaning the connections but I doubt that would help.  Try to get a refund from the seller.


I concur, once a light bulb goes out.  .good night sweet darling.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yeah I know.   But Cetron did acquire Tung Sol Tubes and continued to produce them into the 80s.  So they should still be close in design/production. This is the budget minded pick in my opinion being half the cost of the current tung sol 7236 pricing right now.
> 
> The Sylvania looks good too.  Have you had experience with them?  I don't hear alot about the Sylvania 7236.


The Sylvania isn't as robust as the Tung Sol but matched with the right tube  (tall boy Tung Sol 6SN7GTB for example) and you have a very clean sounding experience there. That's the only limitation of the Sylvania 7236 vs the Tung Sol. Tung Sol will match well with almost anything you throw at it.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Yeah I know.   But Cetron did acquire Tung Sol Tubes and continued to produce them into the 80s.  So they should still be close in design/production. This is the budget minded pick in my opinion being half the cost of the current tung sol 7236 pricing right now.
> 
> The Sylvania looks good too.  Have you had experience with them?  I don't hear alot about the Sylvania 7236.




Yes, Cetron did acquire Tung Sol, and later itself was acquired by another company. The thing is in a tube world the earlier versions always sound better and cost double/triple than the later versions...don't ask me why, LOL. Take Sylvania 6SN7 for example, the later 6SN7 GTBs have different designs and are much worse in sound quality compared to the earlier 6SN7 GTs or GTAs. After Philips took over Sylvania in 70's or 80's, the PhilipsECG version of 6SN7 sounds even worse than the later Sylvania GTB versions. So I would doubt the Cetron 7236 would sound close to Tung Sol 7236, especially given that they have obvious differences in design.

I have both Tung Sol and Sylvania 7236's, the Sylvania seems to have punchier bass than Tung Sol, but not as fast. On the top end Tung Sol sounds crispier. Both are good tubes, better than the RCA 6080's for sure.


----------



## cddc (Dec 5, 2019)

Jared S said:


> I bought a mullard tube but somehow its not working. Can tubes be fixed?




Like @DenverW said, you can try to clean the pins, if it's not working you should return the tube to seller and ask for a refund.

I would not recommend doing anything more than simply cleaning the pins with some alcohol. If it's not working afterwards, the tube has problems within itself hence should be returned.


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> Yes, Cetron did acquire Tung Sol, and later itself was acquired by another company. The thing is in a tube world the earlier versions always sound better and cost double/triple than the later versions...don't ask me why, LOL. Take Sylvania 6SN7 for example, the later 6SN7 GTBs have different designs and are much worse in sound quality compared to the earlier 6SN7 GTs or GTAs. After Philips took over Sylvania in 70's or 80's, the PhilipsECG version of 6SN7 sounds even worse than the later Sylvania GTB versions. So I would doubt the Cetron 7236 would sound close to Tung Sol 7236, especially given that they have obvious differences in design.
> 
> I have both Tung Sol and Sylvania 7236's, the Sylvania seems to have punchier bass than Tung Sol, but not as fast. On the top end Tung Sol sounds crispier. Both are good tubes, better than the RCA 6080's for sure.



Listen, you're preaching to the choir about older tubes.  The only tubes I really covet (and use on a daily basis) are those from the 40s and 50s to be the best sounding - definitely for driver tubes, and in part with power tubes.  That being said, its great to find an occasional surprise.  I guess I'm gonna put this to the test as I got one of these Cetrons on the way to me to compare it with the real deal.  

And yes - I understand the disappointment in later variants of a tube.  I've hemmed and hawwed and lamented about Sylvania 6080s - absolutely hating the WB/WC variants.  I haven't touched 6080s only until recent when acquiring some Chatham 6080s.  So understood about the original and older designs/manufacturing for sure.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Dec 5, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Listen, you're preaching to the choir about older tubes.  The only tubes I really covet (and use on a daily basis) are those from the 40s and 50s to be the best sounding - definitely for driver tubes, and in part with power tubes.


Well, they were built for operation tolerances related to world wars and potential nuclear winters.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Well, they were built for operation tolerances related world Wars and potential nuclear winters.



My tung sol 7236s were sourced from the military SAGE defense system so I'm told.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Listen, you're preaching to the choir about older tubes.  The only tubes I really covet (and use on a daily basis) are those from the 40s and 50s to be the best sounding - definitely for driver tubes, and in part with power tubes.  That being said, its great to find an occasional surprise.  I guess I'm gonna put this to the test as I got one of these Cetrons on the way to me to compare it with the real deal.
> 
> And yes - I understand the disappointment in later variants of a tube.  I've hemmed and hawwed and lamented about Sylvania 6080s - absolutely hating the WB/WC variants.  I haven't touched 6080s only until recent when acquiring some Chatham 6080s.  So understood about the original and older designs/manufacturing for sure.




LOL, hope I won't be labeled as an old tube preacher...I heard lots of tubes and TBH from my personal experience I find older tubes in most cases sound better than the newer ones...you possibly feel the same, from what I read above.

Cetron 7236 seems to be a new discovery, never surfaced before. So hope you find a nice surprise there.


----------



## Keno18

Slade01 said:


> My tung sol 7236s were sourced from the military SAGE defense system so I'm told.


For military computers I think I read somewhere.


----------



## Jared S

DenverW said:


> If a tube isn’t powering up it is probably dead.  You can try cleaning the connections but I doubt that would help.  Try to get a refund from the seller.



I got the refund. Its just a bummer because it takes forever for stuff to arrive here in the Philippines.  

Already ordered another tube. Just have to wait 2 to 3 months for it to get here


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Jared S said:


> I got the refund. Its just a bummer because it takes forever for stuff to arrive here in the Philippines.
> 
> Already ordered another tube. Just have to wait 2 to 3 months for it to get here



Take a look at tube sellers in Hong Kong. I bought 5 used 6F8G Tung Sol RPs for $70, I'm still using the same one after many years. Also good sellers in Taiwan, surely the post must be quicker from these two nearby places?


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> LOL, hope I won't be labeled as an old tube preacher...I heard lots of tubes and TBH from my personal experience I find older tubes in most cases sound better than the newer ones...you possibly feel the same, from what I read above.
> 
> Cetron 7236 seems to be a new discovery, never surfaced before. So hope you find a nice surprise there.



The Cetron 7236 comes close to the Tung-Sol.  Definitely worth the budget price especially if you dont have a 7236 and want to give it a go.....you definitely get more bang for the buck at 24 or less.  Im curious at the bidder who bought 180 dollars worth of these tubes before me.  I guess they like them alot more than me.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372876450252


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372876450252



tell me more . I’m not familiar with these tubes.  Are they worth 60+ a piece?


----------



## Paladin79

They generally bring closer to $20 each.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 15, 2019)

DenverW said:


> tell me more . I’m not familiar with these tubes.  Are they worth 60+ a piece?


Depends how bad you want them, I've gotten one for $1 and a pair for $75 (total of three on hand) and one of our Headphoneus Supremous ( @bcowen ) members here has dubbed them, ordained them... The FrankenTube.  This from Bcowen

"This is long (sorry), but skipping to the end won't do any good because I put all the important stuff in the middle.  In my never-ending quest to find the perfect tube for the Lyr, and even after realizing such a thing doesn't exist I started looking at 7N7's. Firstly because they're electrically identical to a 6SN7 (basically a 6SN7 with a different base), and secondly because they're cheap. Like me. I started with a pair of Tung-Sols -- $20 bucks for the pair delivered. After a day's worth of break-in, I liked them. Liked them quite a bit, actually. Strong bass, very dynamic, and a sparkly treble. Very nice tubes period, and really nice tubes for the money. But at the end of the day they were just really nice tubes, and not in any position to unseat a Bad Boy, WH D, or even my beloved Fotons. But I was intrigued, and bought a pair of CBS ($18 delivered) and then drained the bank account on a pair of RCA's ($28 for the pair). Honestly couldn't tell a lot of difference between them and the Tung-Sols. All of them nice, none of them groundbreaking. As I continued my research, it would seem that there were only two manufacturers of this tube type: Sylvania and National Union. There is so much conflicting info out there it's hard to tell who's right and who's not, but the dual-manufacturer status of these is prolific among the more reputable sources. After looking closely at these three different tubes, it became obvious why they sounded so similar: they're identical internally. Not sure if they were made by Sylvania or NU, but it's clear they were made by the same manufacturer. After more searching I ran across a number of different forum posts from all over that mentioned the tall bottle versions of this tube type sounded better than the short bottle ones. As the tubes I had were all short bottle, I ran across an Ebay ad for the tall bottle pictured below. And the rest is now history. Powerful bass, dynamic and punchy, a midrange that's *just* right, beautiful treble, the rhythmic drive of a Foton. But there are two things that are remarkable with this tube: imaging (or maybe soundstaging) that locates each performer or instrument in its own acoustic space. You can pick out the individual voice in a chorus and the 3rd violin from center in an orchestra. And you hear the space surrounding them. I haven't heard this space-reality thing with headphones before. Not even close. And then there's the tone. Holy friggin' crap. Tone. The depth of harmonics and the full fleshing out of every resonance and micro-detail in the note. If you're a rocker or metalhead and love the sound of an electric guitar or bass, you'll turn into one great big goosebump with this tube in the Lyr. I even listened to some jazz...and liked it. That's never happened before either. I rarely gush on a tube because a lot has to do with personal preference and system synergy, so I won't gush over this one. I'll just say that even after several reality checks swapping a Foton or WH D back in for comparisons that the Frankentube is now my personal reference and owns the #1 spot by a pretty wide margin.

Frankentube? Well, had to name it.  Not all tall bottle 7N7's have this magic. What's notable is the shape of the top of the glass bulb -- it's 'squared off' like the top of Frankenstein's head (or was that Herman Munster)? There are tall bottle versions that have the more rounded top shape, and they don't sound nearly as good to my ears. This is the Frankentube:"

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84

i rarely see these posted for sale so when I see them I share the links


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> tell me more . I’m not familiar with these tubes.  Are they worth 60+ a piece?



To me, they're _worth_ $60 a piece but I wouldn't pay that much for them.    And how they sound in the Darkvoice as opposed to the Lyr 3 I can't say.  But I bought my first (single) one for $5 plus shipping. Last _pair_ I bought a couple months ago was $35 with free shipping. That Ebay listing is grossly overpriced IMO. The tube doesn't have to be labeled as a Lansdale to have the sonic qualities noted -- Lansdale didn't make them, I think they just tested and graded them. I have Sylvania and GE labeled tubes that are identical inside. Biggest telltale sign (with attention paid to the other construction details) is the fully oval mica. Those with the 'squared oval' mica just don't sound as good to my ears, and I'm guessing the difference has to do with the year they were manufactured. I'd keep an eye out and look for a better deal. These pop up with one branding or another on a fairly frequent basis, and usually for much less money.


----------



## DenverW

Intriguing!  Always on the lookout for new tubes.

My current rotation is:

Sylvania bad boy 6sn7
Mullard cv6 (using 7193 adapter)
Tung sol 6c8g round plate (6f8g adapter)


----------



## DenverW

Grab em, Jedi!  I’ll buy one from you   take one for the team!


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 15, 2019)

DenverW said:


> Grab em, Jedi!  I’ll buy one from you   take one for the team!


 My wife was all over me for just posting the link  She thought I was buying them ...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> My wife was all me for just posting the link  She thought I was buying them ...



But you _deserve_ a nice Christmas present....even if you have to buy it for yourself.


----------



## BoomShroom (Dec 18, 2019)

I wasn't expecting any substantial difference going from the Fiio E10(not E10K) to the modi 3 since the modi isn't a high-end DAC but I'm surprised how much more clear it is. I also need to lower the Darkvoice knob about half from where it usually was because it's noticeably louder. I wonder if it wasn't powering my HD600s enough and the quality was suffering because of it. Not to say that it used to sound bad, I just think it's better. It could just be a placebo but at the very least I'm happy with my purchase. 

edit: I keep thinking about it and the DAC doesn't really "power" the cans (from what I understand that's the amp's work) so not sure why I need about half the volume now.


----------



## JKDJedi

BoomShroom said:


> I wasn't expecting any substantial difference going from the Fiio E10(not E10K) to the modi 3 since the modi isn't a high-end DAC but I'm surprised how much more clear it is. I also need to lower the Darkvoice knob about half from where it usually was because it's noticeably louder. I wonder if it wasn't powering my HD600s enough and the quality was suffering because of it. Not to say that it used to sound bad, I just think it's better. It could just be a placebo but at the very least I'm happy with my purchase.
> 
> edit: I keep thinking about it and the DAC doesn't really "power" the cans (from what I understand that's the amp's work) so not sure why I need about half the volume now.


Modi 3 is a decent dac from what I hear. They do make a difference in perception of sound.


----------



## cddc

BoomShroom said:


> I wasn't expecting any substantial difference going from the Fiio E10(not E10K) to the modi 3 since the modi isn't a high-end DAC but I'm surprised how much more clear it is. I also need to lower the Darkvoice knob about half from where it usually was because it's noticeably louder. I wonder if it wasn't powering my HD600s enough and the quality was suffering because of it. Not to say that it used to sound bad, I just think it's better. It could just be a placebo but at the very least I'm happy with my purchase.
> 
> edit: I keep thinking about it and the DAC doesn't really "power" the cans (from what I understand that's the amp's work) so not sure why I need about half the volume now.




Yes, your DAC won’t power up your cans directly. The difference in loudness you perceived was caused by the different output voltage levels from your DAC’s.

My guess is that the output voltage level from your modi 3 DAC to your DV amp is much higher than that from your FIIO DAC.

Some amps have a high/mid/low switch to select the input voltage level from DAC’s. My BHC amp doesn’t have the switch, not sure if DV has it or not, but my Dynaudio monitors do have the switch.

If your amp doesn’t have the selection switch, simply adjust your amp’s volume knob to an appropriate level, it is as simple as that, not a problem at all.


----------



## cddc

Gallic Dweller said:


> Take a look at tube sellers in Hong Kong. I bought 5 used 6F8G Tung Sol RPs for $70, I'm still using the same one after many years. Also good sellers in Taiwan, surely the post must be quicker from these two nearby places?



That’s a super deal, must be years years ago. Good for you.

I would doubt we could find a single tube for the price you paid for 5 anytime soon.


----------



## BoomShroom

cddc said:


> Yes, your DAC won’t power up your cans directly. The difference in loudness you perceived was caused by the different output voltage levels from your DAC’s.
> 
> My guess is that the output voltage level from your modi 3 DAC to your DV amp is much higher than that from your FIIO DAC.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. Didn't particularly think it was a problem but I wasn't knowledgeable about output voltage levels. That's good to know.

I'm going from stock DV tubes to TS 6SN7GTB and RCA 6080. Hoping that's a good combo otherwise I'm open to (cheap) recommendations. Would like something detailed with not too much emphasis on the bass.


----------



## Keno18

BoomShroom said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Didn't particularly think it was a problem but I wasn't knowledgeable about output voltage levels. That's good to know.
> 
> I'm going from stock DV tubes to TS 6SN7GTB and RCA 6080. Hoping that's a good combo otherwise I'm open to (cheap) recommendations. Would like something detailed with not too much emphasis on the bass.


A cheap combo I use is the JJ 6sn7 ($15. 95 tubedepot.com ) and the Sylvania 6as7ga  ($10 + 7.50 shipping ebay ). Good balanced sound.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 20, 2019)

I am trying some of that combination in an amp I just designed but they are about $170 total, I am not so sure if that is cheap.

1963 Melz 1578 and an RCA 6AS7G JAN tube


----------



## Keno18

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying some of that combination in an amp I just designed but they are about $170 total, I am not so sure if that is cheap.


Not sure if you are referring to me but I just bought that combination a couple of weeks ago at those prices.


----------



## Paladin79

Keno18 said:


> Not sure if you are referring to me but I just bought that combination a couple of weeks ago at those prices.



I was not referring to you, it just happens to be what I am listening to right now. I own maybe 40 different 6sn7 types and probably 10 types of 6080s, but this is the one I am liking at the moment.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying some of that combination in an amp I just designed but they are about $170 total, I am not so sure if that is cheap.
> 
> 1963 Melz 1578 and an RCA 6Sn7G JAN tube


Well, it's been awhile since I've filled the cabinet with a new set.  .this one is very interesting.


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying some of that combination in an amp I just designed but they are about $170 total, I am not so sure if that is cheap.
> 
> 1963 Melz 1578 and an RCA 6Sn7G JAN tube




Do you mean rca 6as7g?  I would recommend that as an affordable and good power tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Do you mean rca 6as7g?  I would recommend that as an affordable and good power tube.


Good catch, from the pic I think that's what he meant.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 20, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Good catch, from the pic I think that's what he meant.


Yes sorry, I was thinking one thing and typed another lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Holy Price Drops!! https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372882185638


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Holy Price Drops!! https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372882185638



You gonna stock up more?


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> Holy Price Drops!! https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372882185638



How many of those four are the ones you’re describing?


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> How many of those four are the ones you’re describing?


They're all the same tube, you only need one for the Darkvoice. If you could find the Sylvania tall tube 7N7 they're just as good, to my ears anyway. I ve been toying with the idea of grabbing a new set of high ohm headphones that would match well with the Darkone, something different from the Sennheiser sound, what you guys think of the Beyerdynamic sound? They have so many headphones kinda lost on the 800, 900, T1... Lot to choose from.


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> They're all the same tube, you only need one for the Darkvoice. If you could find the Sylvania tall tube 7N7 they're just as good, to my ears anyway. I ve been toying with the idea of grabbing a new set of high ohm headphones that would match well with the Darkone, something different from the Sennheiser sound, what you guys think of the Beyerdynamic sound? They have so many headphones kinda lost on the 800, 900, T1... Lot to choose from.



I have a dt990 and I like it, using it mostly with pc gaming.  I’ve also tried the T1 and found it too bright.  My personal strong favorite of Beyerdynamics line up is the amiron.  Comfort is top notch, and I found the sound exceptional for a headphone you can find for just above or below 300 with some searching.  Great soundstage too.

That being said, I’m using the hd800 now, and prefer them.  They just do everything any of the beyers do, but just that bit better.  Ymmv of course!  

And hey, if I decided to grab those tubes, anyone want to go in with me?  I only need one, so we could split things 4 ways.  Perhaps we get a solid deal.  If people want to do that lemme know what your upper limit of the 1/4 is.


----------



## Gallic Dweller

Paladin 79,
your pic shows a genuine 1578, - different sonic signature to the Tung Sol RP but on the same level. Top and bottom are superb BUT there's something not quite right with the mids. Try a Tung Sol 6F8G before or afterwards and you will hear what I mean. As I have said before I use a TS as driver and 2 x 1578 as output tubes in the preamp section of a  hybrid amp and the combo is unbeatable. The TS mids are sublime and the 1578 takes care of the rest. I have yet to try the 1578 in the DV.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 21, 2019)

Gallic Dweller said:


> Paladin 79,
> your pic shows a genuine 1578, - different sonic signature to the Tung Sol RP but on the same level. Top and bottom are superb BUT there's something not quite right with the mids. Try a Tung Sol 6F8G before or afterwards and you will hear what I mean. As I have said before I use a TS as driver and 2 x 1578 as output tubes in the preamp section of a  hybrid amp and the combo is unbeatable. The TS mids are sublime and the 1578 takes care of the rest. I have yet to try the 1578 in the DV.



That is a 1963 Melz, I would agree with you with some of the 80's versions. I use a lot of different tubes in a Freya + and might use the other 1578's there. The mids are very forward on the 80's Melz and those are what a lot of people get when they buy them from Ebay. As far as Tung Sol 6F8G tubes, I have tried those and others made by other manufacturers but my preference is probably the Chatham or Bendix 6080. YMMV  (I do like the Tung Sol 5998's)

 I am setting up a comparison between 6sn7 equivalents with a local audiophile group and in there we will compare most any tube or combination thereof known to man. Including single triode versions 6J5's and 7A4's, Loktals, whatever. For that event I am designing and building four identical class A OTL amps and will be using matched quads for both driver and power tubes. I plan on also building a fifth amp and sending it to Mr Cowen so he can play around with 6080, 6AS7G type power tubes and maybe start collecting them. (I have a considerable amount of them myself.) For this comparison I can most easily lay my hands on four matched RCA 6as7g's so that is what I will be using.

I have already done a lot of other comparisons including against most any Tung Sol made, right now I happen to be buying a bunch of 63 Melz and will use that as a baseline in some of my work.

 Please note that I also replace the solder in the Melz and Foton pins, so that helps overall performance, I have worked with @bcowen on some of this. I do not re-flow solder, I get the crappy Russian solder the heck out of there and replace it all together.   I have done that on at least 40 of the 1578's for others and always test and listen to them so I have had a bit of experience with that tube. The same holds true for 50's Fotons.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Holy Price Drops!! https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/372882185638



With the new price working out to less than $20 a tube, that's a pretty nice deal. The Lansdale tested versions of that tube are the best I've heard so far, and sale ads on Ebay are becoming a rare sighting any more. If I didn't already have a dozen of 'em I'd be buying those, but I'm a nice guy most of the time some of the time  every now and then and won't hoard them away from someone else that might enjoy them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Please note that I also replace the solder in the Melz and Foton pins, so that helps overall performance, I have worked with @bcowen on some of this. I do not re-flow solder, I get the crappy Russian solder the heck out of there and replace it all together.   I have done that on at least 40 of the 1578's for others and always test and listen to them so I have had a bit of experience with that tube. The same holds true for 50's Fotons.



Replacing the solder (best) or at minimum reflowing it and adding a bit of new solder is almost a requirement with these tubes as you brought to light many months ago. I don't have a lot of experience with the Melz, but have quite a lot of experience with the '50's Fotons (which with the Lyr 3 / Aeon combo remains one of my favorite tubes). My soldering still isn't quite to the level of yours, but good enough as long as nobody looks at it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Replacing the solder (best) or at minimum reflowing it and adding a bit of new solder is almost a requirement with these tubes as you brought to light many months ago. I don't have a lot of experience with the Melz, but have quite a lot of experience with the '50's Fotons (which with the Lyr 3 / Aeon combo remains one of my favorite tubes). My soldering still isn't quite to the level of yours, but good enough as long as nobody looks at it.


For the price the Fotons are very good IMHO, with proper solder the 1958's sound pretty good and they can still be had, last time I looked for them.  Other tubes from the 50's most likely reside with Mr. Cowen.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> With the new price working out to less than $20 a tube, that's a pretty nice deal. The Lansdale tested versions of that tube are the best I've heard so far, and sale ads on Ebay are becoming a rare sighting any more. If I didn't already have a dozen of 'em I'd be buying those, but I'm a nice guy most of the time some of the time  every now and then and won't hoard them away from someone else that might enjoy them.



Christmas time is for giving!  Or for selling to the less fortunate, like me.


----------



## BoomShroom

Is 2900/3200 on the Hickok Tester a substantial difference compared to NOS? As in, would I be able to hear the difference? Or should I just cough up couple more dollars for a NOS one.


----------



## DenverW

There are different testers that have different minimum values that determine "good" tubes.  However, depending on the tube you're probably fine.  Honestly, you really wont hear a difference until the tube starts deteriorating, which can often be 100's or 1000's of hours.  If you asked me if I can hear the difference between a tube that tested 3200 or one that tested 2600, I can't.


----------



## bcowen

BoomShroom said:


> Is 2900/3200 on the Hickok Tester a substantial difference compared to NOS? As in, would I be able to hear the difference? Or should I just cough up couple more dollars for a NOS one.



As @DenverW noted, the readings are tester dependent. Some Hickoks provided minimum good test values, others provided average NOS values. Without knowing the specific Hickok model or the tube type you're looking at (and even more importantly, when the tester used was last calibrated), it's not possible to provide any meaningful information.  That said, the difference between the triode readings in the tube you're looking at should not result in any audible issues. The readings are within 10% of each other which most would consider to be nicely matched.


----------



## BoomShroom (Dec 22, 2019)

That makes a lot of sense,


DenverW said:


> There are different testers that have different minimum values that determine "good" tubes.  However, depending on the tube you're probably fine.  Honestly, you really wont hear a difference until the tube starts deteriorating, which can often be 100's or 1000's of hours.  If you asked me if I can hear the difference between a tube that tested 3200 or one that tested 2600, I can't.





bcowen said:


> As @DenverW noted, the readings are tester dependent. Some Hickoks provided minimum good test values, others provided average NOS values. Without knowing the specific Hickok model or the tube type you're looking at (and even more importantly, when the tester used was last calibrated), it's not possible to provide any meaningful information.  That said, the difference between the triode readings in the tube you're looking at should not result in any audible issues. The readings are within 10% of each other which most would consider to be nicely matched.



That seems very reasonable, it seems much more complex than simply saying a certain tube is at x/10 amount of juice left. Thanks for the info, I always learn something from you guys. The tube in question was a Hewlett-Packard/RCA 8080 vacumn tube. I just ordered a NOS JAN-RCA AS7G too, though I hear they're very similar, maybe almost identical? I guess I'll find out.


----------



## bcowen

BoomShroom said:


> That makes a lot of sense,
> 
> 
> 
> That seems very reasonable, it seems much more complex than simply saying a certain tube is at x/10 amount of juice left. Thanks for the info, I always learn something from you guys. The tube in question was a Hewlett-Packard/RCA 8080 vacumn tube. I just ordered a NOS JAN-RCA AS7G too though I hear they're very similar, maybe almost identical? I guess I'll find out.



If you're referring to a 6080 and 6AS7G, then yes they are nearly identical electrically. But they could sound quite different depending not only on the manufacturer but the manufacturing date. 

I have no personal experience with this tube type just yet, but that will change here shortly I think.


----------



## DenverW

Anybody want to help me identify these tubes?  They LOOK like 6AS7G, but there are tiny differences that make me not sure when I compare them to mine.




 

Also, if anyone wants to try out some adapters and tube rolling variants PM me, I'm going to be moving quite a few of mine now that I've had fun with them (7193, 6F8G/6C8G, E80CC/12BH7A, 6J5) and thought I'd let people here have first dibs before I sell stuff.


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## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Anybody want to help me identify these tubes?  They LOOK like 6AS7G, but there are tiny differences that make me not sure when I compare them to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if anyone wants to try out some adapters and tube rolling variants PM me, I'm going to be moving quite a few of mine now that I've had fun with them (7193, 6F8G/6C8G, E80CC/12BH7A, 6J5) and thought I'd let people here have first dibs before I sell stuff.



I will have to check the photo against some I have at home but those might be 5998's, a highly sought after Tung Sol medium gain tube. They work well in place of 6as7g or 6080's if they are what I think they are.


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## DenverW (Dec 30, 2019)

I checked them against my 5998 and they're missing the infamous domino plates that the 5998 have.  Here is a second picture to show the plate structure a bit better.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> I checked them against my 5998 and they're missing the infamous domino plates that the 5998 have.  Here is a second picture to show the plate structure a bit better.



I am not so sure all 5998's had the domino plate.


----------



## sennfan83261

Paladin79 said:


> I will have to check the photo against some I have at home but those might be 5998's, a highly sought after Tung Sol medium gain tube. They work well in place of 6as7g or 6080's if they are what I think they are.


The angle makes it hard to tell whether those plates are domino plates, a tell-tale sign of a 5998.  I assume that they were shot that way on purpose.

EDIT:  Okay, yeah the new pics confirm that it's definitely not a 5998


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## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I checked them against my 5998 and they're missing the infamous domino plates that the 5998 have.  Here is a second picture to show the plate structure a bit better.


If that's not a 6as7g then i don't know what is..


----------



## DenverW

I think its a 6AS7G as well.  I have a tung sol/Chatham one, so i'm wondering if there are slight differences between the tung sol labelled ones and the chatham ones.  If I end up with these I'll do a side by side comparison.


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## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I think its a 6AS7G as well.  I have a tung sol/Chatham one, so i'm wondering if there are slight differences between the tung sol labelled ones and the chatham ones.  If I end up with these I'll do a side by side comparison.


I have some confusion with Chatham and Tung Sol.. I've always thought they were the same company. And on a quick search for 6as7g Tung Sols...nothing comes up so these might be super rare. How does the Chatham compare to an RCA 6as7G, I use to have a couple of those RCA and kinda wishing I kept one.


----------



## DenverW

I always thought it was the same tube as well, but its the only thing I can think of that explains those pictures above.  I'll have to wait and see I guess?  

I never really did a direct comparison for the RCA, but I remember that I liked it.  I still have it - if you want one send me a PM; i'm going to post a list of tubes for sale so I'll add it.


----------



## Jared S

Are JAN RCA Tubes really that good? It seems like all I read about in forums.


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## DenverW

Jared S said:


> Are JAN RCA Tubes really that good? It seems like all I read about in forums.




Which tube?  6as7g?  That power tube is a really good VALUE, as it’s a decent power tube that sounds better than the $15 a tube you can find it for, but I wouldn’t exactly say it’s near the upper tier sonically.

As for other rca types, they vary, but I find most unimpressive.


----------



## bcowen

Jared S said:


> Are JAN RCA Tubes really that good? It seems like all I read about in forums.



I agree with @DenverW that many RCA tubes are great _values_.  Most aren't contenders for the best of any particular tube type, but I've yet to hear an RCA that just sounds awful (and I can't say the same for any Philips ECG and most GE's). A lot depends on the tube type and the vintage. For instance, an RCA 845 is the best I've ever heard of that type. Obviously I haven't heard every 845 ever made, but I've listened to quite a number and the RCA is heads and shoulders above the rest.  I was also highly impressed with a 1940's smoked glass RCA 6SN7 I listened to as part of @Paladin79 's blind tube test. It was my second favorite out of a group of 9 which included some very well regarded tubes (of that type). Then you get to the clear top, side getter versions of RCA 12AU7's and 6CG7's. Not in the top tier of those two types, but nice sounding tubes that even today don't cost an arm and a leg.

Don't get tripped up on the JAN designation. Many of those tubes ran down the same line and were built at the same time and the same way as those without the JAN marking. What's more important is the year(s) of manufacture and which tube type you're looking at. 

Just my $0.02...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I agree with @DenverW that many RCA tubes are great _values_.  Most aren't contenders for the best of any particular tube type, but I've yet to hear an RCA that just sounds awful (and I can't say the same for any Philips ECG and most GE's). A lot depends on the tube type and the vintage. For instance, an RCA 845 is the best I've ever heard of that type. Obviously I haven't heard every 845 ever made, but I've listened to quite a number and the RCA is heads and shoulders above the rest.  I was also highly impressed with a 1940's smoked glass RCA 6SN7 I listened to as part of @Paladin79 's blind tube test. It was my second favorite out of a group of 9 which included some very well regarded tubes (of that type). Then you get to the clear top, side getter versions of RCA 12AU7's and 6CG7's. Not in the top tier of those two types, but nice sounding tubes that even today don't cost an arm and a leg.
> 
> Don't get tripped up on the JAN designation. Many of those tubes ran down the same line and were built at the same time and the same way as those without the JAN marking. What's more important is the year(s) of manufacture and which tube type you're looking at.
> 
> Just my $0.02...



While it goes against my nature to agree with Bill on most anything, the RCA grey glass is a very fine tube and as best I recall was Jason’s favorite when I sent the tube challenge on to Schiit Audio.  It was that tube that caused me to stop using 12AU7’s as much in BH Crack amps.

Those tubes are now in Maryland and should be heading back here shortly for a very comprehensive 6SN7 equivalent blind listen.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> While it goes against my nature to agree with Bill on most anything, the RCA grey glass is a very fine tube and as best I recall was Jason’s favorite when I sent the tube challenge on to Schiit Audio.  It was that tube that caused me to stop using 12AU7’s as much in BH Crack amps.
> 
> Those tubes are now in Maryland and should be heading back here shortly for a very comprehensive 6SN7 equivalent blind listen.



If that RCA needs to stop and rest at my house on its way back, it would be duly gracious of me to feed it dinner and give it a comfortable bed. I promise I'd allow it to leave in the near future.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If that RCA needs to stop and rest at my house on its way back, it would be duly gracious of me to feed it dinner and give it a comfortable bed. I promise I'd allow it to leave in the near future.


This group does not contain any inferior tubes and it would be no fun unless I snuck a GE in on you.
The black glass Ken-Rad VT231 should be in there as well.


----------



## Jared S

I'm actually looking for 6sn7 tubes. Can you guys post some good tubes with decent value from ebay? Preferably low shipping cost to the Philippines


----------



## DenverW

Jared S said:


> I'm actually looking for 6sn7 tubes. Can you guys post some good tubes with decent value from ebay? Preferably low shipping cost to the Philippines



We can keep an eye out, but I would recommend looking at the 'reference 6sn7' thread on these boards and seeing what tubes interest you, that way you can search ebay and other locations a bit more thoroughly, hunting for free worldwide shipping.  You'll get an idea pretty quick what a good price is, and if you need help determining if a tube is worthwhile or not feel free to post it.  Another place to look is in the classifieds on these forums under the cables/accessories section, people sell tubes there often, including myself, but overseas shipping will most likely cost extra.


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> Anybody want to help me identify these tubes?  They LOOK like 6AS7G, but there are tiny differences that make me not sure when I compare them to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if anyone wants to try out some adapters and tube rolling variants PM me, I'm going to be moving quite a few of mine now that I've had fun with them (7193, 6F8G/6C8G, E80CC/12BH7A, 6J5) and thought I'd let people here have first dibs before I sell stuff.




These are for sure not 5998 tubes, as all 5998/421A tubes come with domino plates.

They look like TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G or 6520 tubes, but I remember my TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G tubes do not have the U-shaped radiator under the bottom mica (I am away visiting family members so can’t check my collection). So maybe it’s a small variant, or a totally different tube. 

BTW, why are you selling all your adapters, buddy? You’ve found your fav driver tube, or are tired of adapter rolling and want to go back to stock 6SN7 tubes?


----------



## DenverW

cddc said:


> These are for sure not 5998 tubes, as all 5998/421A tubes come with domino plates.
> 
> They look like TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G or 6520 tubes, but I remember my TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G tubes do not have the U-shaped radiator under the bottom mica (I am away visiting family members so can’t check my collection). So maybe it’s a small variant, or a totally different tube.
> 
> BTW, why are you selling all your adapters, buddy? You’ve found your fav driver tube, or are tired of adapter rolling and want to go back to stock 6SN7 tubes?



Never fear, I will not part with ALL my tubes and adapters.  I just always have the bug to try new things, and don't have the ability to utilize them consistently.  Also...I've sold my darkvoice, so I no longer need the adapters that go to 6sn7.  I'm primarily using a bottlehead crack, so the tube rolling is very very similar, so I'll stick around the thread because its interesting and helpful.  

Current favorites:  GEC straight brown 6as7g with 1952 Sylvania 6sn7, or with Mullard/mitchum cv6 (a 7193 equivalent).  I'm also rediscovering love for some 12au7.


----------



## aisalen

DenverW said:


> Never fear, I will not part with ALL my tubes and adapters.  I just always have the bug to try new things, and don't have the ability to utilize them consistently.  Also...I've sold my darkvoice, so I no longer need the adapters that go to 6sn7.  I'm primarily using a bottlehead crack, so the tube rolling is very very similar, so I'll stick around the thread because its interesting and helpful.
> 
> Current favorites:  GEC straight brown 6as7g with 1952 Sylvania 6sn7, or with Mullard/mitchum cv6 (a 7193 equivalent).  I'm also rediscovering love for some 12au7.


I myself is curious on the improvement from DV to Bottlehead. Is the difference in sq between them large enough for me to consider upgrading to it? Hoping for your inputs. Thanks.


----------



## SHIMACM

Good morning people! I have a Little Dot Mk IV with the Siemens C3G and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes (black skirt) and I am thinking of buying a Darkvoice. As I know the stock tubes are weak, I wanted to update the tubes. I know there are tubes for Darkvoice that are extremely expensive, costing twice the price of the amplicator itself.
So I wanted your advice on which pipes I could buy to upgrade the stock pipes. But I wanted to buy everything that is good value for money. So which tubes do you recommend that are very good and not extremely expensive?


----------



## DenverW

aisalen said:


> I myself is curious on the improvement from DV to Bottlehead. Is the difference in sq between them large enough for me to consider upgrading to it? Hoping for your inputs. Thanks.



Keep in mind that there is also an increase in cost, especially when upgraded with speedball.  I don’t want to go in depth into a different amp on the thread, let’s head over to the crack thread for info and impressions.  I like both amps.


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> Good morning people! I have a Little Dot Mk IV with the Siemens C3G and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes (black skirt) and I am thinking of buying a Darkvoice. As I know the stock tubes are weak, I wanted to update the tubes. I know there are tubes for Darkvoice that are extremely expensive, costing twice the price of the amplicator itself.
> So I wanted your advice on which pipes I could buy to upgrade the stock pipes. But I wanted to buy everything that is good value for money. So which tubes do you recommend that are very good and not extremely expensive?



if you’re already using 6sn7 and have one you like, there are lots of great value power tubes.  It depends on what sound signature you enjoy.  My personal favorite values are the tung sol or rca 6as7g which can be found for about $35 and $20 respectively.  I’d review some 6080 or 6as7g comparison threads.


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> Never fear, I will not part with ALL my tubes and adapters.  I just always have the bug to try new things, and don't have the ability to utilize them consistently.  Also...I've sold my darkvoice, so I no longer need the adapters that go to 6sn7.  I'm primarily using a bottlehead crack, so the tube rolling is very very similar, so I'll stick around the thread because its interesting and helpful.
> 
> Current favorites:  GEC straight brown 6as7g with 1952 Sylvania 6sn7, or with Mullard/mitchum cv6 (a 7193 equivalent).  I'm also rediscovering love for some 12au7.




lol...Dark Voice 336 and BottleHead are close cousins, so keeping either one is fine.

Glad to hear you’ll stay here and share your findings with us. What I learned from the 12AU7 family is that few of them are good, and even the best of 12AU7s can hardly compete with the best of 6SN7s. I’ve heard Telefunken/Amperex Bugle Boys/RCA clear top and regular/Tung Sol/Sylvania and lots of other 12AU7s. I have shared the above findings with Jedi before.

@aisalen if you like to get a bottlehead, make sure you know some basic electronics and soldering skills, coz it will come as a kit and you have to solder all parts together...a little bit challenging but also lots of fun.


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> lol...Dark Voice 336 and BottleHead are close cousins, so keeping either one is fine.
> 
> Glad to hear you’ll stay here and share your findings with us. What I learned from the 12AU7 family is that few of them are good, and even the best of 12AU7s can hardly compete with the best of 6SN7s. I’ve heard Telefunken/Amperex Bugle Boys/RCA clear top and regular/Tung Sol/Sylvania and lots of other 12AU7s. I have shared the above findings with Jedi before.
> 
> @aisalen if you like to get a bottlehead, make sure you know some basic electronics and soldering skills, coz it will come as a kit and you have to solder all parts together...a little bit challenging but also lots of fun.



And if you do some heavy mods it can come out looking pretty good.


----------



## cddc (Jan 3, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> And if you do some heavy mods it can come out looking pretty good.




 Wow...these 2 Cracks look amazing. Gotta be a DIY expert to craft something like them.

I don’t think I can replicate them. I am a newbie at wood works. My Crack base is still naked wood without any paint or stain... lol...but somehow I like the natural colour of woods so it doesn’t bother me too much


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 3, 2020)

cddc said:


> Wow...these 2 Cracks look amazing. Gotta be a DIY expert to craft something like them.
> 
> I don’t think I can replicate them. I am a newbie at wood works. My Crack base is still naked wood without any paint or stain... lol...but somehow I like the natural colour of woods so it doesn’t bother me too much


I have done a few things. Search for images of Steampunk Bottlehead Crack on google and some of the work is mine. This is some of my current work including a solid cherry and copper rack and a VU meter box I did. I do a little design work on Class A OTL amps when time allows.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Wow...these 2 Cracks look amazing. Gotta be a DIY expert to craft something like them.
> 
> I don’t think I can replicate them. I am a newbie at wood works. My Crack base is still naked wood without any paint or stain... lol...but somehow I like the natural colour of woods so it doesn’t bother me too much



I'm getting pretty good at copying @Paladin79 's work.  Let me know if I can assist.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> if you’re already using 6sn7 and have one you like, there are lots of great value power tubes.  It depends on what sound signature you enjoy.  My personal favorite values are the tung sol or rca 6as7g which can be found for about $35 and $20 respectively.  I’d review some 6080 or 6as7g comparison threads.



Any experience with these?


----------



## aisalen

DenverW said:


> if you’re already using 6sn7 and have one you like, there are lots of great value power tubes.  It depends on what sound signature you enjoy.  My personal favorite values are the tung sol or rca 6as7g which can be found for about $35 and $20 respectively.  I’d review some 6080 or 6as7g comparison threads.


No worries, what important is that you like both amps.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> Any experience with these?



I'm not up to date with that one.  I usually assume that amperex 6as7g are rebranded, perhaps from a Russian tube?  Especially since its made 'in England?'  What is it?


----------



## bcowen

[QUOTE="DenverW, post: 15396644, member: 514017" What is it?[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know. These had Tektronix stickers on them with a 1978 date which I assume is when they purchased them or put them in inventory, so they had to be manufactured prior to that.  Have no idea who actually made them.

I'm with you on the possible Russian manufacture though. Have several 6DJ8's that are Hewlett Packard branded with "By Amperex" silkscreened at the bottom. But they don't have the quadrant ridges on top of a Philips-made Amperex, and have larger diameter bottles and flying saucer getter pans that are hallmarks of Russian tubes of that type.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I'm getting pretty good at copying @Paladin79 's work.  Let me know if I can assist.




LOL...good for you 

The 2 Amperex 6AS7G’s are fake. I have seen similar ‘made in England’ fake Amperex 6AS7G’s before, they are actually Russian 6H13C’s. Right above the getter flash on the right tube, there is a UFO resting there. UFO getters is the giveaway of Russian tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> LOL...good for you
> 
> The 2 Amperex 6AS7G’s are fake. I have seen similar ‘made in England’ fake Amperex 6AS7G’s before, they are actually Russian 6H13C’s. Right above the getter flash on the right tube, there is a UFO resting there. UFO getters is the giveaway of Russian tubes.


Good catch, those do indeed look identical to Russian tubes I own.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I'm getting pretty good at copying @Paladin79 's work.  Let me know if I can assist.



@bcowen  did an admirable job on a mini shelf he copied from me, i ended up adding VU meters and other bling just to try to keep up with him.

 My blind test 6SN7 equivalents made it back to me so this morn I am listening to a:

Sylvania Bad Boy
Foton from 1954 with associated pin re-soldering
KEN-RAD vt-231 black glass
RCA 6sn7gt grey glass
Sylvania tall body Frankie 7N7  (A Cowen favorite)
Melz 1578 from 1986, with pin re-soldering
CBS/Hytron  5692
Tung Sol Mouse ears...I am not well versed in the mouse ears so I am not sure which this is

My baseline tube is the Melz 1578 from 1963 and I just added a Tung Sol 5998 power tube for a bit more bass than an RCA JAN 6sn7g

First listen is to the KEN-RAD black glass, wow, just wow. One of my favorites in this group.
 I am building Bill an amp geared to reveal tube sound and I should mix up these exact tubes and send them to him again. Blind listening, my money would be on him picking six of eight correctly, he is that good.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL...good for you
> 
> The 2 Amperex 6AS7G’s are fake. I have seen similar ‘made in England’ fake Amperex 6AS7G’s before, they are actually Russian 6H13C’s. Right above the getter flash on the right tube, there is a UFO resting there. UFO getters is the giveaway of Russian tubes.



Thanks much for the info! You know, I didn't even look at the getter pans on them...the UFO (eg: flying saucer) would have made it self-evident to me if I'd only looked.  Ah well. They were too cheap to be true Philips-made tubes ($20 for the pair). Both test very nicely with over 2X min. GM and nicely matched triode sections. Hopefully they_ don't _suck sonically. Such is the life of a newbie with a particular tube type. 

But every now and then the dumpster-dive works out OK. The two in the middle below test great -- high GM and very close values on the triodes. The one on the left tests pretty well but has a bigger spread in the triodes, and the one on the right is a no-go with extremely high interelement leakage...high enough that it already became acquainted with the trash can. @Paladin79 thinks these TungSols are decent (but not upper echelon), so for the money I'll consider them a good beginner tube for me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thanks much for the info! You know, I didn't even look at the getter pans on them...the UFO (eg: flying saucer) would have made it self-evident to me if I'd only looked.  Ah well. They were too cheap to be true Philips-made tubes ($20 for the pair). Both test very nicely with over 2X min. GM and nicely matched triode sections. Hopefully they_ don't _suck sonically. Such is the life of a newbie with a particular tube type.
> 
> But every now and then the dumpster-dive works out OK. The two in the middle below test great -- high GM and very close values on the triodes. The one on the left tests pretty well but has a bigger spread in the triodes, and the one on the right is a no-go with extremely high interelement leakage...high enough that it already became acquainted with the trash can. @Paladin79 thinks these TungSols are decent (but not upper echelon), so for the money I'll consider them a good beginner tube for me.


Here is one I like in case you happen upon some.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen  did an admirable job on a mini shelf he copied from me, i ended up adding VU meters and other bling just to try to keep up with him.
> 
> My blind test 6SN7 equivalents made it back to me so this morn I am listening to a:
> 
> ...



You're much too kind (even though it was most difficult to type that).   IIRC, when I reported my impressions back to you on the blind test the Ken-Rad and the RCA were my two most-favorites of the group you sent. I didn't call those right because I'd never heard either one of them -- I'm stash-less.  But such is the fun of a truly blind test -- you get to hear things you may not have before, and there are no preconceived notions or bias to get in the way.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You're much too kind (even though it was most difficult to type that).   IIRC, when I reported my impressions back to you on the blind test the Ken-Rad and the RCA were my two most-favorites of the group you sent. I didn't call those right because I'd never heard either one of them -- I'm stash-less.  But such is the fun of a truly blind test -- you get to hear things you may not have before, and there are no preconceived notions or bias to get in the way.



I would send the tubes to most anyone in the US in case they wanted to prove how well they know the 6sn7 equivalents, but they would have to be brave like you and bet a steak dinner and a bottle of wine from Tuscany, of my choice lol.

I just popped the Chatham 6080 into an amp and recall now why I like it so well. Listening to Feels Like Rain by John Hiatt. Bass is a bit more exacting than the Tung Sol 5998 IMHO, not quite as deep but very accurate. The RCA grey glass shines in some songs more than other to me but it is indeed a favorite of mine as well.

The 80's Melz really jumps out in the group but maybe not for all the right reasons to some lol. It did rate pretty high in some groups that did a listen. The mids really pop.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Here is one I like in case you happen upon some.



Interesting.




(from here: https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=7125 )

How close are they to the Tung-Sols?  Big, big difference?  The current going prices are big, big different.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> (from here: https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=7125 )
> ...


Both are good tubes and i would rate them close in SQ with the 5998 having a bit more bass thump but that is listening to the ones I own. I am happy with either in my amps.

Since you are buying power tubes and I know you own 6sn7's I may gift you a couple power  tubes that are not super expensive just so you can get a feel for what you do and do not like.


----------



## treemagnet

Hey everyone, I have just slipped over the darkside into the world of tubes and just picked up a DV! Very happy with the change after owning solid state gear.

So quick question what are good tubes for a more detailed sound instead of the more popular warm and lush sound. Budget about $100. I see RCA and Tung Sol get quiet a mention?


----------



## sennfan83261

treemagnet said:


> Hey everyone, I have just slipped over the darkside into the world of tubes and just picked up a DV! Very happy with the change after owning solid state gear.
> 
> So quick question what are good tubes for a more detailed sound instead of the more popular warm and lush sound. Budget about $100. I see RCA and Tung Sol get quiet a mention?


Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears paired with a Tung-Sol 7236, about $65-70 for both on fleabay.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 8, 2020)

treemagnet said:


> Hey everyone, I have just slipped over the darkside into the world of tubes and just picked up a DV! Very happy with the change after owning solid state gear.
> 
> So quick question what are good tubes for a more detailed sound instead of the more popular warm and lush sound. Budget about $100. I see RCA and Tung Sol get quiet a mention?



This is a combo I like that is well within the price range depending on how the auction ends on the VT-231.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Vintage-...281581?hash=item3b3dc353ad:g:ha4AAOSwDbBd41yV

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-RCA-JA...845257?hash=item1a8dc80389:g:z0UAAOSwkYld3wnv

My favorite combo is the Ken Rad Black Glass VT 231 or Melz 1578 from 1963 with a Tung Sol 5998 but you best figure at least double your budget unless you luck out and find them cheap. 

If you solder, or know someone who does, these are something I learned about from @bcowen 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-6N8S-...921904?hash=item3b3c4fa0b0:g:jcAAAOSwmFVdxWco

The pins need to be re-soldered but most any you find from the 50's with ribbed plates are very good tubes for the price.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is a combo I like that is well within the price range depending on how the auction ends on the VT-231.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Vintage-...281581?hash=item3b3dc353ad:g:ha4AAOSwDbBd41yV
> 
> ...



Sheeez....seems the price has escalated a bit since I was buying those.  IIRC, I paid in the mid-$30's for _quads_ of '52's, '53's and '54's....delivered.  Supply and demand I guess, and the supply is quickly vaporizing.  Still excellent tubes though.


----------



## DenverW

So I was poking around online, and saw this posting:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/a1834-tube...027279?hash=item4b720d638f:g:lCYAAOSwboheEOfx

He had the tubes mislabeled as curved base gec, so I sent a message to see what he would say.  He was very nice about it, and changed the listing.  I asked a few questions, and he said he’d be willing to sell single tubes, as was open to offers.  I mentioned I’d pass it along, as these are imho top 3 power tubes.

I’ve never purchased from him and don’t know a thing about him or his tubes other than our conversation, so be aware this is more notification rather than recommendation.

But, maybe someone can score a good brown base gec!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sheeez....seems the price has escalated a bit since I was buying those.  IIRC, I paid in the mid-$30's for _quads_ of '52's, '53's and '54's....delivered.  Supply and demand I guess, and the supply is quickly vaporizing.  Still excellent tubes though.


You should turn loose of a couple and see what they bring, you bought up most of the world supply and now you wonder why they are scarce lol.


----------



## BoomShroom (Jan 10, 2020)

Just got two great pairs of 7193 tubes and the adapter from @DenverW . Big thanks for the quick shipping and careful packaging. I can't succinctly describe the sound in audiophile terms so I'm just gonna say I love them and I'm very happy with my purchase!


----------



## DenverW (Jan 10, 2020)

I'm glad you like them, the 7193 is a great tube.  The ken rad seems to be the accepted favorite, but my personal favorite was the National Union.  Keep an eye out for variants like the mullard mitchum cv6 or hytron e1148, I very much liked those as well.  For the price of the adapter and the low price you can find these tubes (in pairs) I really cant recommend them enough.

edit: for both the cv6 and e1148 be aware that the top connections are reversed; instead of bottom left wire connector going to bottom left on the tube, its bottom left to far left and so on.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You should turn loose of a couple and see what they bring, you bought up most of the world supply and now you wonder why they are scarce lol.



It never hurts to have a spare. Or 2 (hundred).


----------



## Benno1988

I know I'm late to the party, but just got a Darkvoice 336SE.

The 6AS7 back tube is a USA Made Aperex. The front is some cheaper looking thing.

Whats the go to combo, or a better 6SN7 to replace the front one?


----------



## Keno18

Benno1988 said:


> I know I'm late to the party, but just got a Darkvoice 336SE.
> 
> The 6AS7 back tube is a USA Made Aperex. The front is some cheaper looking thing.
> 
> Whats the go to combo, or a better 6SN7 to replace the front one?


There is no real go to for the 6sn7. It depends on how much you want to spend  A good starting point is a JJ 6sn7 new production tube. $15.95 plus shipping from tubedepot.com Or a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears vintage, $25-45 on ebay. Been happy with both IMO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Benno1988 said:


> I know I'm late to the party, but just got a Darkvoice 336SE.
> 
> The 6AS7 back tube is a USA Made Aperex. The front is some cheaper looking thing.
> 
> Whats the go to combo, or a better 6SN7 to replace the front one?


That's the fun part, the search. There's all kinds of combos to pick and choose from. What headphones are you using with the Darkvoice?


----------



## Jared S

any of these a good deal?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KEN-RAD-6S...TUBE-VINTAGE-STOCK-TESTED-2-8254/233489908734
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7gt-Kenrad-Tube-Flat-Black-Plates-Low-Uneven-1950/283710326758
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-JAN-CK...-Black-Plates-Low-Uneven-testing/283780692203
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Rad-6SN7-GT-Vacuum-Tube/184163605061


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> any of these a good deal?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/KEN-RAD-6S...TUBE-VINTAGE-STOCK-TESTED-2-8254/233489908734
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7gt-Kenrad-Tube-Flat-Black-Plates-Low-Uneven-1950/283710326758
> ...


The one everybody wants is the last listing there, and that's a good price for it, also if your wanting just a "taste"of the Ken Rad sound then the first listing would be the safest bid.The 2nd and 3rd.. I'd stay away from.


----------



## SylvesterH (Feb 18, 2020)

Hello,

I`m using my dv 336se for over a year.
I bought it to experience the dark side also and have not been into tube rolling. I just upgraded the original tubes with some Tung Sol 6sn7 GTB reissue and the power tube with some SED Winged C, both tubes bought form thetubestore.com
I used many cans on the amp with differing results.
- Sennheiser HD 800s - nice sound but I somehow miss the soundstage of my solid state class A amp (oppo ha-1). Also it is NOT warmer then the oppo (kind of surprised me).
- AKG k812 Pro - low impedance cans (36 ohms) are playing nice with the dv. My observations from the Sennheiser apply 100%.
- Oppo PM-2 - low impedance (32 ohms) planar magnetics. Nice warm sound, against the common wisdom, they pair well with the darkvoice.
- HiFiMan Sundara - (37 ohms) planar cans. Pair surprisingly well with the dv.
- Audeze LCD-2C. (70 ohms) planar cans. These do NOT pair well. The sound is somehow thin, lacks mass.

Although the dv is a nice amp (very good for its price) i did not find the warm sound I sought for. Plus, soundstage, layering and micro details are clearly better on the solid state.

So, what to do now?
Option 1 is to buy some much better tubes even if it mean some much more serious expense (psvane cv-181-T is one option and I will have to find some matching driver tubes).
Option 2 is to buy a much more expensive amp altogether (Feliks Audio Euforia is the main contender).

Those of you who have used multiple amps and/or tubes, what would you do?

PS
I am not a great tube roller and in Europe it is much harder to get tubes (for vintage ebay is essentially the sole option) so I would like to avoid too many trials.
The sound I am looking for is wide, resolving but a touch warm with good bass (quantity and quality).


----------



## JKDJedi

SylvesterH said:


> Hello,
> 
> I`m using my dv 336se for over a year.
> I bought it to experience the dark side also and have not been into tube rolling. I just upgraded the original tubes with some Tung Sol 6sn7 GTB reissue and the power tube with some SED Winged C, both tubes bought form thetubestore.com
> ...


You want the Sylvania 6SN7GT short bottle.


----------



## SylvesterH (Feb 18, 2020)

Where can I find it?
And with which power tube should I pare it?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Feb 18, 2020)

SylvesterH said:


> Where can I find it?
> And with which power tube should I pare it?


ebay (aka fleabay), just search "sylvania 6sn7" (without quotes). Go for 6SN7GT's and 6SN7GTA's. Ignore GTB's and flat plate GT's (just two flat plates with 5-7 holes each). The flat plate Sylvania 6SN7GT's (at least the ones I bought) are meh. As for test readings, they're not entirely accurate. My rule of thumb (as gleaned from these threads) is 15% above minimum, the higher the better of course.

As for power tubes, good budget starter ones are RCA 6AS7 (coke-bottles) and Tung-Sol 7236's.

EDIT: Adding an older post of mine (thanks @DenverW for the reminding me) if @SylvesterH  wants a more clean, in-your-face type of sound from the DV336SE:


sennfan83261 said:


> Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears paired with a Tung-Sol 7236, about $65-70 for both on fleabay.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> ebay (aka fleabay), just search "sylvania 6sn7" (without quotes). Go for 6SN7GT's and 6SN7GTA's. Ignore GTB's and flat plate GT's (just two flat plates with 5-7 holes each). The flat plate Sylvania 6SN7GT's (at least the ones I bought) are meh. As for test readings, they're not entirely accurate. My rule of thumb (as gleaned from these threads) is 15% above minimum, the higher the better of course.
> 
> As for power tubes, good budget starter ones are RCA 6AS7 (coke-bottles) and Tung-Sol 7236's.


This^


----------



## DenverW

You might also want to check the for sale section in the cables/accessories section of these forums.  Myself and plenty of other people from this community sell tubes on there for less than eBay.  That being said, I do use eBay often as well.


----------



## SylvesterH

I did a search on ebay and found these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-NEW-Sy...820228?hash=item4205f58dc4:g:r4IAAOSwk3NdQ6wI

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6AS7g-...338947?hash=item56d60c9f83:g:agEAAOSw7PNeTKLa

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GREAT-PAIR...837710?hash=item23d1084dce:g:WocAAOSwgENeRFxn

Being based in Europe I looked for Top rated sellers only.
What I'm not enthusiastic for are the custom duties and the fact that if I receive a defective product it is quite complicated and expensive to return it.
I would much prefer to find some EU seller but this seems a no go ....


----------



## DenverW

All of those listings are on the high side, imho, ESPECIALLY the first one, which I find easily $100 over priced.  Do you need pairs?  The Sylvania 6sn7w short bottle can be found around $100, the rca 'trending' at $21, and the tung sol around 40.  It just takes some time and shopping around.  Auctions often end up a lot less than the buy it now options, perhaps this one will end low:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-...573330?hash=item365d997a12:g:HnIAAOSwIqpeSaOA


----------



## SylvesterH (Feb 19, 2020)

DenverW said:


> All of those listings are on the high side, imho, ESPECIALLY the first one, which I find easily $100 over priced.  Do you need pairs?  The Sylvania 6sn7w short bottle can be found around $100, the rca 'trending' at $21, and the tung sol around 40.  It just takes some time and shopping around.  Auctions often end up a lot less than the buy it now options, perhaps this one will end low:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-...573330?hash=item365d997a12:g:HnIAAOSwIqpeSaOA


Hi,

I do not need pairs, but I did not find single pieces from Top sellers.
I really want to avoid returns, and in all honesty, most of my past experiences with ebay were not that great ...


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> ebay (aka fleabay), just search "sylvania 6sn7" (without quotes). Go for 6SN7GT's and 6SN7GTA's. Ignore GTB's and flat plate GT's (just two flat plates with 5-7 holes each). The flat plate Sylvania 6SN7GT's (at least the ones I bought) are meh. As for test readings, they're not entirely accurate. My rule of thumb (as gleaned from these threads) is 15% above minimum, the higher the better of course.
> 
> As for power tubes, good budget starter ones are RCA 6AS7 (coke-bottles) and Tung-Sol 7236's.
> 
> EDIT: Adding an older post of mine (thanks @DenverW for the reminding me) if @SylvesterH  wants a more clean, in-your-face type of sound from the DV336SE:



Speaking of 7236's, have you ever tried the Cetron (Richardson) versions?  I have a pair but am waiting on an amp to hear them in. Tested very nicely on my Hickok, but unheard as of yet. There's a US seller on Ebay offering them for $25 each currently...just wondering if I should buy more now before they get scooped up (if they're any good).


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Speaking of 7236's, have you ever tried the Cetron (Richardson) versions?  I have a pair but am waiting on an amp to hear them in. Tested very nicely on my Hickok, but unheard as of yet. There's a US seller on Ebay offering them for $25 each currently...just wondering if I should buy more now before they get scooped up (if they're any good).


Think most users here would agree that Tung Sol is the King of all 7236's, Anything else... well. Unless there's some raving reviews out there on the Cetrons.. (is there?)  welll blow me waters down.... check this list out!!


_*THE LIST*_
I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
I.b) Western Electric 421A
I.c) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523

II.a.i) Tung Sol 5998
II.a.ii) Tung Sol 421A
II.a.iii) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236

http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html

Is the Cetron made by Tung Sol?? Might be a GOOD BUY after all.. nice find @bcowen

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuu...835508?hash=item2f39c773b4:g:WF0AAOSwDnpd2bqh


----------



## bcowen (Feb 27, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Think most users here would agree that Tung Sol is the King of all 7236's, Anything else... well. Unless there's some raving reviews out there on the Cetrons.. (is there?)  welll blow me waters down.... check this list out!!
> 
> 
> _*THE LIST*_
> ...



I have not done any thorough research on the Cetrons, but what I do know is they were a Richardson Electronics brand (National being another).  Richardson never manufactured receiving tubes, just distributed them. I believe Cetron and National were simply OEM brands made for them by others with those brand labels.  I've read in a couple places that the 7236's were made by TungSol which may be true, but I haven't run across anything yet that's convincing or definitive. I had some Cetron 300B's a while back that were quite good. Not to the level of a Western Electric, but way cheaper and _way_ better than stuff coming out of China at the time (1990's). Have no clue who actually made them though.

Still haven't had the opportunity to hear these (waiting on amp), but I went ahead and bought a few more just in case they're good. Most of the online dealers are asking $75 and up for these, so the $25 on Ebay is a steal....unless they suck.


----------



## DenverW

At that price I would try them for sure.  I will say, however, that I completely disagree with the placement of the 7236 on that list.  I was not impressed at all with the 7236, and found them a minimal upgrade over the tung sol 6080.  Perhaps not even an upgrade at all.  I was much higher on the tung sol 6as7g, and feel like it should be ranked higher.  It’s all subjective, though.

ive yet to hear a gec 6as7g round base, though I have a straight base and a WE 421a.  The 421a made a major improvement in sound quality to any other power tube I tried, and is my current favorite.  Hunt eBay, as you can find 421a for not death prices once in a blue moon.


----------



## bcowen

TungSol 7236:





Cetron 7236:




Hard to tell for sure from the different picture angles, but they look pretty similar. As luck would have it the TungSol pictured above is from a just listed Ebay ad for $27. So of course I bought it (for the good of the community and all) and can compare them in the flesh here shortly.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> TungSol 7236:
> 
> 
> Cetron 7236:
> ...


Please do!! Looking forward to this..


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> At that price I would try them for sure.  I will say, however, that I completely disagree with the placement of the 7236 on that list.  I was not impressed at all with the 7236, and found them a minimal upgrade over the tung sol 6080.  Perhaps not even an upgrade at all.  I was much higher on the tung sol 6as7g, and feel like it should be ranked higher.  It’s all subjective, though.
> 
> ive yet to hear a gec 6as7g round base, though I have a straight base and a WE 421a.  The 421a made a major improvement in sound quality to any other power tube I tried, and is my current favorite.  Hunt eBay, as you can find 421a for not death prices once in a blue moon.



I've been keeping my eyes peeled for a WE 421A, but haven't found one that I like yet.  Seems the ~$200 range ones are either untested and sold with no returns or have dubious test scores. The ones that appear to be genuinely NOS with some credible info to support them are $300+.  I was cracking up watching the last minute bidding on one that was advertised as untested, as-is, no returns, etc.  The getter flash was almost completely gone at the bottom save for one small area that was quite obviously white.  Vacuum be gone.  It ended up selling for $150. Amazing.  

But I'll score one of these days...hopefully.


----------



## DenverW

I got some from a guy on eBay named smtelco.  100 positive feedback, selling new in original box.  auction bids, under 200.

First one had a dead channel out of the box.  Wrote him and he was nice about it, sent me another tube.  The new one failed painfully (thought it blew out my headphones) in the right channel in under a week with light to little use.  Wrote him again, and he was much less understanding.  I sent both tubes back to him, and requested a refund.  He suddenly stopped communicating and I had to get a refund via PayPal.  It’s hit or miss on eBay, but overall at least there is some protection for buyers.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> TungSol 7236:
> 
> 
> Cetron 7236:
> ...



Looking forward to the comparison too...

When Cetron 7236 was in production, Tung Sol 7236 had been gone for long time, I remember Tung Sol had been sold twice before Cetron got it. The two 7236s do have some differences: Tung Sol has higher base, Tung Sol has thicker top getter flash where you can barely see the top mica and getters (whereas in Cetron you can see the top mica and getters clearly), Tung Sol has square top getters vs Cetron has circular top getter. I hope the difference is not as big as GT vs GTB.


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> I got some from a guy on eBay named smtelco.  100 positive feedback, selling new in original box.  auction bids, under 200.
> 
> First one had a dead channel out of the box.  Wrote him and he was nice about it, sent me another tube.  The new one failed painfully (thought it blew out my headphones) in the right channel in under a week with light to little use.  Wrote him again, and he was much less understanding.  I sent both tubes back to him, and requested a refund.  He suddenly stopped communicating and I had to get a refund via PayPal.  It’s hit or miss on eBay, but overall at least there is some protection for buyers.



Feel sorry for your bad experience with 421A. I think Paypal should be able to hold the seller accountable and refund you. 

So sad that it's risky to buy 5998 / 421A tubes, especially given their astronomical prices. I read earlier that 5998 is prone to arcing - at least 2 HF fellows had their headphones destroyed by 5998 arcing. I thought 421A might be better than 5998, but then you also had arcing in 421A. Well, 421A is basically a cherry-picked 5998, so I shouldn't be surprised to read arcing in 421A.


----------



## cddc (Feb 27, 2020)

You were lucky...at least your headphones/eardrums were not blown by the arcing.

Tube arcing is really terrible.

SO when trying new tubes, must use sacrificable cans, and must plug in the cans long after the tubes are heated up.


----------



## DenverW

Thanks!  I did end up getting a refund, but I had to jump through some hoops, such as providing proof of return shipping.  The guy no longer has perfect feedback .

The arcing is one of the reasons i've slowed down a LOT on my tube rolling varieties.  It might be completely unfounded, but I feel like the 421a and 5998 are more fussy with input tubes, where as the 6as7 just about takes anything.  If I didnt love the sound on the 421a so much I'd just use the GEC 6as7g only.  One day i'll either trade into or find a reasonable round base 6as7g and my power tube rolling days will be over .


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Feel sorry for your bad experience with 421A. I think Paypal should be able to hold the seller accountable and refund you.
> 
> So sad that it's risky to buy 5998 / 421A tubes, especially given their astronomical prices. I read earlier that 5998 is prone to arcing - at least 2 HF fellows had their headphones destroyed by 5998 arcing. I thought 421A might be better than 5998, but then you also had arcing in 421A. Well, 421A is basically a cherry-picked 5998, so I shouldn't be surprised to read arcing in 421A.



The 421A was a designation exclusive to Western Electric, wasn't it?


----------



## DenverW

To my limited knowledge the 421a was made by western electric, and has small Differences from the 5998.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> To my limited knowledge the 421a was made by western electric, and has small Differences from the 5998.


 The Western Electric 421A appears to be a juiced-up 5998 built especially for WE by TS/Chatham. One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5.


----------



## JKDJedi

I have the 421a and yeah ...it's special, kinda saving it for my retirement enjoyment. Reason I'd like to pick up a 5998, wouldnt feel bad burning out a 5998...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Western Electric 421A appears to be a juiced-up 5998 built especially for WE by TS/Chatham. One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5.



The WE was actually made by TS?  Far out.  I had no idea WE had ANY tubes OEM'd for them....thought it was always the other way around.  Thanks for that info!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The WE was actually made by TS?  Far out.  I had no idea WE had ANY tubes OEM'd for them....thought it was always the other way around.  Thanks for that info!


Well in theory, there's Tung Sol 421a out there too, and an on going debate on the origins of the Western Electric 421a. It looks and smells a lot of the 5998.. which is made by Tung Sol..


----------



## cddc (Feb 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The 421A was a designation exclusive to Western Electric, wasn't it?



I agree with Jedi.

WE 421A was made by Tung Sol, most people seem to agree with this assessment, because WE421A looks exactly the same as Tung Sol 421A and and some Tung Sol 5998.

The only point up to debate is wether WE 421A is actually the same as TS 5998. WE 421A is a cherry-picked TS 5998, most people seem to support this from what I read. It seems WE designed the 5998/421A tube, and TS manufactured these tubes using WE's patents. When TS manufactured the tubes, the ones with better potential and can have higher transconductance would be labeled as WE 421A and shipped to WE. The rest were labeled as either TS 421A or TS/Chatham 5998.


----------



## DenverW

I wish I had my 5998 to do an exact comparison, but I believe there are some slight differences, such as with the lower construction.  There are definitely some data sheet differences.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> The Western Electric 421A appears to be a juiced-up 5998 built especially for WE by TS/Chatham. One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5.




That's true. 

The transconductances of WE 421A and TS 5998 are different. However, I read that it was caused by using different plate voltages. With higher plate voltage, you'll get higher measured transconductance. Some people argued that if applying the same measuring parameters, they would get the same transconductance from 5998. Not sure if it's true though...I am not electrical engineering.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I agree with Jedi.
> 
> WE 421A was made by Tung Sol, most people seem to agree with this assessment, because WE421A looks exactly the same as Tung Sol 421A and and some Tung Sol 5998.
> 
> The only point up to debate is wether WE 421A is actually the same as TS 5998. WE 421A is a cherry-picked TS 5998, most people seem to support this from what I read. It seems WE designed the 5998/421A tube, and TS manufactured these tubes using WE's patents. When TS manufactured the tubes, the ones with better potential and can have higher transconductance would be labeled as WE 421A and shipped to WE. The rest were labeled as either TS 421A or TS/Chatham 5998.



Interesting. I'm a total newbie with this tube type so have lots to learn. Thanks for the additional info!


----------



## JKDJedi

Here's a 7236 worthy of a collection,and priced to sell. Seen this one listed elsewhere for $95. Sounds great with a tall d getter Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. Currently paired with a Foton .. (My Tung Sol 7236 has some left channel static, gonna blast the pins with a sodder gun to see if that can help) Kinda tempted to grab the Cetron. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SY...451056?hash=item443a832bb0:g:bOMAAOSwqu5anCuW


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Here's a 7236 worthy of a collection,and priced to sell. Seen this one listed elsewhere for $95. Sounds great with a tall d getter Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. Currently paired with a Foton .. (My Tung Sol 7236 has some left channel static, gonna blast the pins with a sodder gun to see if that can help) Kinda tempted to grab the Cetron.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SY...451056?hash=item443a832bb0:g:bOMAAOSwqu5anCuW



Speaking of Fotons, this just came in today. Advertised as a pair of '58's, I got this nice rib plate and a '57 smooth plate instead. Sometimes even I get lucky.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Speaking of Fotons, this just came in today. Advertised as a pair of '58's, I got this nice rib plate and a '57 smooth plate instead. Sometimes even I get lucky.


I think you were the one that got me interested in theses little power houses, and about that Sylvania.... meh, got the Tung Sol going again, what a difference zapping the pins can make. Crackling gone,


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think you were the one that got me interested in theses little power houses, and about that Sylvania.... meh, got the Tung Sol going again, what a difference zapping the pins can make. Crackling gone,



Nice pic!!  What year is that Foton?  Have a '52 in my Lyr 3 right now...with resoldered pins of course.   That and the Frankie 7N7 are the two most regular tubes in my rotation. The 7N7 easily bests the Foton at the soundstage and imaging thing, but when I'm in a rock/blues/metal mood the Foton gets my foot tapping like no other.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think you were the one that got me interested in theses little power houses, and about that Sylvania.... meh, got the Tung Sol going again, what a difference zapping the pins can make. Crackling gone,



Ever try one of these?  Not sure who all might have made this particular type.  Other than the Matsu 7DJ8 (not an uber-tube but pretty good for the money) I've not heard a Japanese-made tube that got me excited. But you never know where a diamond in the rough may lurk...


----------



## cddc

Never heard a J-tube in the 6AS7G family, but it looks like an RCA 6AS7G to me.

Not sure if it's a rebranded RCA, or manufactured according to RCA's design.

If it sounds like an RCA, I will stay away


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## cddc

LOL...your addiction is now cureless


----------



## bcowen (Mar 1, 2020)

cddc said:


> Never heard a J-tube in the 6AS7G family, but it looks like an RCA 6AS7G to me.
> 
> Not sure if it's a rebranded RCA, or manufactured according to RCA's design.
> 
> If it sounds like an RCA, I will stay away



I might have an RCA 6AS7G, but I'll have to look. Have a couple RCA 6AS7GA's (straight bottle) for sure. I'll take a look and see how they compare.

NEC was given a lot of help (and funding) in its early days by Western Electric. Hoping if this was licensed or rebranded that WE was behind it rather than RCA...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



ROFL!   Love it!

We're all _collectors_, right?  Not hoarders.  Nope.  Not ever.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Ever try one of these?  Not sure who all might have made this particular type.  Other than the Matsu 7DJ8 (not an uber-tube but pretty good for the money) I've not heard a Japanese-made tube that got me excited. But you never know where a diamond in the rough may lurk...


Where do you find all these magnificent toys!? I did a quick look up (Google my go to search engine) and found a listing with this info 

"Nippon Electric was a post WWII subsidary of Western Electric in Tokyo, Japan.  The 6520 was a premium, high-reliability version of the 6AS7G.  The only other company to manufacture this model of tube was Tung-Sol Chatham".


----------



## cddc

My understanding of American 6520 tubes from what I read is that they were all made by TungSol/Chatham (possibly for computers). They come in 2 flavors, the ones with domino plates are basically 5998's, the others with 6AS7G plates are basically TS/Chatham 6AS7G's.

Now, this Japanese 6520 tube seems pretty interesting. It has a TungSol 6520 designation but with an RCA look, and a WE relationship.

The relationship between NEC and WE makes it even more interesting. If NEC used WE's design/tech, the tube would look like a TungSol manufactured WE 421A. But it has no domino plates. It looks like an RCA 6AS7G to me, albeit the shape of its glass bottle looks a little bit different.

Very interesting tube indeed


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Where do you find all these magnificent toys!? I did a quick look up (Google my go to search engine) and found a listing with this info
> 
> "Nippon Electric was a post WWII subsidary of Western Electric in Tokyo, Japan.  The 6520 was a premium, high-reliability version of the 6AS7G.  The only other company to manufacture this model of tube was Tung-Sol Chatham".



I just stumbled across these on Ebay. I have 5998's and 421A's in my watch list and these popped up down at the bottom in the 'similar items' area. Did some (very) quick poking around and noted the relationship with WE which got me interested. Seller was asking way more than I wanted to pay for a treasure hunt, so I shot him an offer at half of his asking price. Honestly expected him to get pissed off and not even respond at all  , but surprisingly he accepted about 30 minutes later. So here they are, and luckily they both test out very nicely.

Don't have any RCA 6AS7G's so direct comparisons with an ST bottle aren't possible. The RCA 6AS7GA is entirely different, but that may be a result of the bottle shape. Note the TS 6080 and RCA 6080 I have are identical in every detail. So one made the tube for the other...


----------



## cddc

Very interesting story on your purchase...

eBay is a mine field...sometimes people can find real good deals, but sometimes liars and duds.

Rebranding is very common in tubes, 6080 is no exception. You are right TungSol and the RCA on the right are identical, they are both RCA 6080's I believe. I also think the RCA with orange print is actually Sylvania 6080.

So I think from left to right you have:       NEC 6AS7G ----------- RCA 6080 (rebranded as TungSol) -----------Sylvania 6080 (rebranded as RCA) -------------RCA 6080


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Very interesting story on your purchase...
> 
> eBay is a mine field...sometimes people can find real good deals, but sometimes liars and duds.
> 
> ...



You're spot on with the Ebay mine field thing. I've been buying tubes on Ebay for probably 20+ years...but I've also had a good tube tester for 20+ years (and learned how to calibrate it myself).  Personally, I wouldn't buy tubes on Ebay without a tester -- I'd pay more and go to a trusted dealer. But that's just me. There are some very good sellers on Ebay, but they are hopelessly outnumbered by the charlatans and people that just found some tubes at a garage or estate sale. The latter can be a nice way to get some great tubes for cheap, but 1) only buy from the 'unknowing' if they accept returns so that 2) you can return the tubes if they test badly (with the tester you have).   

I've found the best way to get good tubes cheap on Ebay is to make a watch list item for any tube types you're interested in. That way you get an email when new listings are put up and can pounce on something quickly (if warranted). If there's a deal to be had and I get to it first, it's gone. LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

My windows 10 update knocked out the Topping D10 drivers.. (sob) and it seems like the Topping website is down for now... So getting use to the back up unit..  sort changes the sound signature of everything in a suttle way, gonna be a tube rolling weekend ahead


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> My windows 10 update knocked out the Topping D10 drivers.. (sob) and it seems like the Topping website is down for now... So getting use to the back up unit..  sort changes the sound signature of everything in a suttle way, gonna be a tube rolling weekend ahead



Bummer on the update thing, but nice that you have a backup!

Received the Tung Sol 7236 tube today. Tests great...very much appears to be NOS.  But construction is very different from the Cetron.  About the only thing in common is the medium gray box plates, but even with those the Tung Sols plates are longer with different extensions. The TS has a taller bottle, dual rectangular getter holders up top (Cetron has dual rings), different micas, etc etc.  Possible the year of manufacture has something to do with it but I doubt it. Guessing the Cetrons were NOT made by Tung Sol.  I'll be quite interested to see how they compare once I can listen to them.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Bummer on the update thing, but nice that you have a backup!
> 
> Received the Tung Sol 7236 tube today. Tests great...very much appears to be NOS.  But construction is very different from the Cetron.  About the only thing in common is the medium gray box plates, but even with those the Tung Sols plates are longer with different extensions. The TS has a taller bottle, dual rectangular getter holders up top (Cetron has dual rings), different micas, etc etc.  Possible the year of manufacture has something to do with it but I doubt it. Guessing the Cetrons were NOT made by Tung Sol.  I'll be quite interested to see how they compare once I can listen to them.


So will I.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Bummer on the update thing, but nice that you have a backup!
> 
> Received the Tung Sol 7236 tube today. Tests great...very much appears to be NOS.  But construction is very different from the Cetron.  About the only thing in common is the medium gray box plates, but even with those the Tung Sols plates are longer with different extensions. The TS has a taller bottle, dual rectangular getter holders up top (Cetron has dual rings), different micas, etc etc.  Possible the year of manufacture has something to do with it but I doubt it. Guessing the Cetrons were NOT made by Tung Sol.  I'll be quite interested to see how they compare once I can listen to them.


How's the burn in going with the Cetron? How does it compare to the Tung Sol?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> How's the burn in going with the Cetron? How does it compare to the Tung Sol?



Don't know yet.  Still waiting on the amp to listen to them in. Some of the non-electronic parts for this amp (like the transformer cover) are sourced from China, and for some weird reason there's been a delay on those.   Can't wait to hear these tubes, but as this will be my first OTL I don't have any other amps on hand to try them in.


----------



## Absoltuion (Mar 15, 2020)

Does anyone have photos of the transformer inside the SE? I was going to take of the cap off today but I don't have my soldering stations with me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Don't know yet.  Still waiting on the amp to listen to them in. Some of the non-electronic parts for this amp (like the transformer cover) are sourced from China, and for some weird reason there's been a delay on those.   Can't wait to hear these tubes, but as this will be my first OTL I don't have any other amps on hand to try them in.


You got the Darkvoice amp? -----------> https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Does anyone have photos of the transformer inside the SE? I was going to take of the cap off today but I don't have my soldering stations with me.


I tried opening this thing up last month and right away stripped the screws..so yeah, game over, keeping it as is.


----------



## Absoltuion (Mar 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I tried opening this thing up last month and right away stripped the screws..so yeah, game over, keeping it as is.



Yeah, the bottom screws were really in there. I just keep them *snug* since I'm in and out of it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You got the Darkvoice amp? -----------> https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se



No, it will be a finished version of this which is just a prototype (I had to send it back several weeks ago):


----------



## Absoltuion (Mar 15, 2020)

Here are the readings I pulled on my AMP.
Green is capacitor specs, Yellow is my readings. Light Blue was the heater grid. Only got one of the 106J (74V?) I need longer probes to read others.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> No, it will be a finished version of this which is just a prototype (I had to send it back several weeks ago):


Shades of the Bottlehead. Tempted to grab one. Gonna be on call these next few weeks, they closed everything off here in the Coachella Valley! For some flu like virus, I don't get it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Catching up on some tube rolling.. just because, this album sort of sets the mood of all this chaos, and having fun A & B the Senns with the Hifi cans, the ole Solid State vs the Tubes is always fun.


----------



## JKDJedi

Philips/Mullard 6080 & Ken Rad VT231


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, I was using a combination with RCA JAN 6As7G and Sylvania 6SN7WGT.  Only I found the sylvania valve kind of shiny and with a recorded sound.  When I put the Chinese 6SN7 valve, the sound became much more natural and warmer, the way I like it.  The Chinese 6SN7 valve with RCA tame the treble of my T1 and gave it a little more bass, and even improved the midfield.  Which 6SN7 valve do you indicate can be upgraded to the Chinese valve, keeping the sound as I described?


----------



## DenverW

Ken rad vt231, sylvania 6sn7gt 2 hole bottom getter 1952, national union black or smoked glass.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> Ken rad vt231, sylvania 6sn7gt 2 hole bottom getter 1952, national union black or smoked glass.
> [/CITAR]
> 
> Do you have a picture of the sylvania tube for me to see?


----------



## SHIMACM

Another question. I don't intend to use low impedance headphones on my Darkvoice. So would Tung-sol really be an upgrade over my RCA JAN 6AS7G for my 600ohms T1? Or would the only advantage of obtaining the Tung-Sol 5998 be for better control of low impedance headphones?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Another question. I don't intend to use low impedance headphones on my Darkvoice. So would Tung-sol really be an upgrade over my RCA JAN 6AS7G for my 600ohms T1? Or would the only advantage of obtaining the Tung-Sol 5998 be for better control of low impedance headphones?


5998 will be a nice upgrade for your T1 ( any headphones really) I'm currently searching for a 2nd headphone to play with on the Darkvoice, compared to the Hifiman 400i, the Sennheiser HD6XX are really dark.  Looking for pics of the Sylvania for you... Soon as I get some coffee in me  good morning!


----------



## DenverW

Here you go.  What to look for: three holes in the plate, bottom getter, date code of late 1951 to early 1953.


----------



## JKDJedi

Nice DenverW! I may have to restock on these, (I sold off my JAN-CHS 52' pair last month) I for sure thought you had the short bottles in mind, those really pack a punch for the monies on them, they were everywhere when I was on the hunt for them so grabbed a few, the one tube I horded on,  I just found the three to photograph and one more somewhere around here.. all early 50's I believe modeled from the "Chrome Dome".


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> 5998 will be a nice upgrade for your T1 ( any headphones really) I'm currently searching for a 2nd headphone to play with on the Darkvoice, compared to the Hifiman 400i, the Sennheiser HD6XX are really dark.  Looking for pics of the Sylvania for you... Soon as I get some coffee in me  good morning!





DenverW said:


> Here you go.  What to look for: three holes in the plate, bottom getter, date code of late 1951 to early 1953.






JKDJedi said:


> Nice DenverW! I may have to restock on these, (I sold off my JAN-CHS 52' pair last month) I for sure thought you had the short bottles in mind, those really pack a punch for the monies on them, they were everywhere when I was on the hunt for them so grabbed a few, the one tube I horded on,  I just found the three to photograph and one more somewhere around here.. all early 50's I believe modeled from the "Chrome Dome".



Guys thank you so much for your help. I'll see if I can find some with a good price to buy. Good quarantine to all!


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 24, 2020)

Old story new, (I've posted on this tube here a few pages back), and I'm stuck home anyways, If your lucky enough to have a friend who wants to get rid of old tubes sitting in his garage for decades, GRAB THEM! The ones this guy had were mostly off televisions. And out of three boxes I managed to only find five or six usable tubes  Anyways, her'es one of them, not sure what it really is but my guess is a Sylvania 6GU7 (super cheap on Ebay), year unknown. I have a Marconi 6CG7 found in Canada that has lots of that tube harmonics that bounce off the walls type sound, this Sylvania cleans some of that up, not that the echos are bad, just depending on your mood. (I should probably cut the grass now)


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> Here you go.  What to look for: three holes in the plate, bottom getter, date code of late 1951 to early 1953.





JKDJedi said:


> Nice DenverW! I may have to restock on these, (I sold off my JAN-CHS 52' pair last month) I for sure thought you had the short bottles in mind, those really pack a punch for the monies on them, they were everywhere when I was on the hunt for them so grabbed a few, the one tube I horded on,  I just found the three to photograph and one more somewhere around here.. all early 50's I believe modeled from the "Chrome Dome".



And this one. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-SLR-by-S...sh=item1cdda43e2b:g:rlsAAOSw9fZdz~OZ&LH_BIN=1


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> And this one.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-SLR-by-Sylvania-6SN7GT-6SN7-GT-Vacuum-Tube-Tested-2-Hole-Blk-Plts-Foil-Getter/123977612843?hash=item1cdda43e2b:g:rlsAAOSw9fZdz~OZ&LH_BIN=1



Not quite the same.  The regular Sylvania 6sn7gt May be too close to what you have already.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 24, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Not quite the same.  The regular Sylvania 6sn7gt May be too close to what you have already.


The WGT brown base tubes don't sound that great, he described them to the T... " shiny and with a recorded sound"  mono like and flat, I don't think these taller Sylvania tubes sound like that. Might be worth a look. And I just grabbed one cheaper than the one listed just now, so I'll soon find out and confirm later next week, didn't need it but.. wth


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> Ken rad vt231, sylvania 6sn7gt 2 hole bottom getter 1952, national union black or smoked glass.



Is there a lot of difference between Ken Rad VT-231 and Sylvania Vt-231?


----------



## DenverW

The ken rad has more bass by a good amount.  Also, looking at my quote above I seem to have screwed up the rec.  it’s the 1952 THREE hole that is the one to look out for, not the two hole.  Dunno how I typo’d that.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> The ken rad has more bass by a good amount.  Also, looking at my quote above I seem to have screwed up the rec.  it’s the 1952 THREE hole that is the one to look out for, not the two hole.  Dunno how I typo’d that.



Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Thanks for the clarification.


For your headphones, the Ken Rad VT231 and TungSol 5998 would probably be end game tubes on the Darkvoice.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> For your headphones, the Ken Rad VT231 and TungSol 5998 would probably be end game tubes on the Darkvoice.



They are already on my wish list. I have to see if I can find them at a reasonable price. I know it will be difficult. What final game would you consider for the HD650?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> For your headphones, the Ken Rad VT231 and TungSol 5998 would probably be end game tubes on the Darkvoice.



What about Tung-sol 7236? Would you replace the 5998 for T1g1 at the same level?


----------



## DenverW

I preferred the tung sol 6as7g over the 7236, but mileage will vary.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> I preferred the tung sol 6as7g over the 7236, but mileage will vary.



6as7g? Or did you mean tung-sol 5998?


----------



## DenverW

Both. . I wasn’t a fan of the 7236.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> What about Tung-sol 7236? Would you replace the 5998 for T1g1 at the same level?


They'r not the same, if you want something fast with more (bass) impact then 7236, want something laid back with a fuller tube sound then 5998


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> They'r not the same, if you want something fast with more (bass) impact then 7236, want something laid back with a fuller tube sound then 5998



I am translating here into Portuguese, but the translation has a time that is not good. LOL. So did you mean that the Tung-sol 7236 is more relaxed and has a more complete tube sound and that the 5998 is faster and with more impact (bass)?


----------



## JKDJedi

[


SHIMACM said:


> I am translating here into Portuguese, but the translation has a time that is not good. LOL. So did you mean that the Tung-sol 7236 is more relaxed and has a more complete tube sound and that the 5998 is faster and with more impact (bass)?


Other way around buddy...

Tung Sol 7236 = Fast with impactful bass, Solid State Sounding

Tung Sol 5998 = Soulful Full Body Sounding,

Both are good at what they do, get both!


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> [
> 
> Other way around buddy...
> 
> ...



Now I fully understand. I believe that, due to the high prices of the valves, I went looking for the 5998. Thanks for the quick answers.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> The ken rad has more bass by a good amount.  Also, looking at my quote above I seem to have screwed up the rec.  it’s the 1952 THREE hole that is the one to look out for, not the two hole.  Dunno how I typo’d that.



I saw on ebay some Ken Rad vt231 with black glass and with clear glass. Do they sound the same?


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> I saw on ebay some Ken Rad vt231 with black glass and with clear glass. Do they sound the same?



Go for the black glass if possible, it’s has a better low end.


----------



## TYATYA

cddc said:


> LOL...good for you
> 
> The 2 Amperex 6AS7G’s are fake. I have seen similar ‘made in England’ fake Amperex 6AS7G’s before, they are actually Russian 6H13C’s. Right above the getter flash on the right tube, there is a UFO resting there. UFO getters is the giveaway of Russian tubes.


Exactly 6H13C 1978, cheap tubes.
I throw away a couple after comparing to 5998. Veil, muffed, lack of resolution sound.
But looks good, quite clean and new.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I saw on ebay some Ken Rad vt231 with black glass and with clear glass. Do they sound the same?


For your headphones the black glass, the clear would be better on Sennheiser HD650, I have both black and clear and prefer the clear for that reason. So for your T1, BLACK. because once you go black....


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 30, 2020)

Just got the Sylvania 6SN7GT (56?) bottle today and going from memory (comparisons to the Bad Boys JAN-CHS 52') *this one sounds just as good*. The Bad Boy name was given to a particular Sylvania that an Australian had a large batch of,he called them the Bad Boys, to my knowledge it was the 1952 Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7GT (slightly taller than the average Sylvania tall tube). As I mentioned from the start, the 56' 2 hole tube sounds just as good, I've been against that idea for a long time as no way anything (Sylvania) could be just as good as my beloved Bad Boys.....wrong. So have a Coke and a smile folks if you have anything mid to low 50's Sylvania, your in good hands. 


1956 Sylvania 6SN7GT (2Hole bottle)



1952 (pair) JAN-CHS Sylvania 6SN7GT (3 hole)


----------



## SHIMACM

Did anyone have the opportunity to listen to Darkvoice with the T1 1st generation and the Sennheiser HD650? If so, with which of the two headphones does Darkvoice sound better? I think Darkvoice is not taking full advantage of my T1.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Did anyone have the opportunity to listen to Darkvoice with the T1 1st generation and the Sennheiser HD650? If so, with which of the two headphones does Darkvoice sound better? I think Darkvoice is not taking full advantage of my T1.


Did you get the tubes you ordered?


----------



## SHIMACM

Not yet. But I am curious to know if anyone had the opportunity to compare the two on Darkvoice.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Not yet. But I am curious to know if anyone had the opportunity to compare the two on Darkvoice.


Some tubes work better than others for the said headphones, no other way around it. If you not able to get different tubes then your pretty much stuck with that sound signature you don't like. Sell your headphones or sell your Darkvoice. Or just get the tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

The Sennheiser do sound spectacular on the Darkvoice though.  #MatchMadeInHeaven


----------



## SHIMACM

I'll wait for the valves to arrive. I ended up making a hasty comment. Maybe I'll buy an HD650 just to try it out. I don't sell the T1. I still want to try it out with a Wa2 or Elise.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I'll wait for the valves to arrive. I ended up making a hasty comment. Maybe I'll buy an HD650 just to try it out. I don't sell the T1. I still want to try it out with a Wa2 or Elise.



I'm not sure exactly what differences there are between the HD-650's and the Massdrop HD-6XX's, but the latter are currently $195, or about half the going price for the 650's in the US anyway. Also not sure if shipping/import duties would narrow that margin, but the HD-6XX's are a hell of a value (IMO) for the money so might be worth a look.


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, I know that a while ago I said that the sylvania 6sn7wgt valve was too bright and with the sound of recorded on my T1 g1. Yeah eh. By combining it with a RCA JAN 6AS7G, the treble of my T1 was tamed and the midrange improved considerably. The bass, for me, is still insufficient, so I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Ken Rad vt231 that I bought. But I intend to keep this sylvania in my collection.

How does RCA JAN 6as7g 1967 compare to Chatham 6AS7G?

I was thinking of buying Chatham.

Another thing, I've been reading about arc problems with the TS 5998 and WE421A. Is this problem very frequent? I don't want to buy an expensive valve like that and still risk burning my T1.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> The Sennheiser do sound spectacular on the Darkvoice though.  #MatchMadeInHeaven



Which power valve are you using?


----------



## SHIMACM

Another question. What do you think of sylvania 7236?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, I know that a while ago I said that the sylvania 6sn7wgt valve was too bright and with the sound of recorded on my T1 g1. Yeah eh. By combining it with a RCA JAN 6AS7G, the treble of my T1 was tamed and the midrange improved considerably. The bass, for me, is still insufficient, so I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Ken Rad vt231 that I bought. But I intend to keep this sylvania in my collection.
> 
> How does RCA JAN 6as7g 1967 compare to Chatham 6AS7G?
> 
> ...


No problems with the one I have, but if that's a concern for you then you really need to try the Darkvoice groups favorite, the Tung Sol 7236, that really pumps out the bass.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15543234, membro: 467979"]
Sem problemas com o que eu tenho, mas isso é uma preocupação para você, você realmente precisa experimentar o favorito dos grupos Darkvoice, o Tung Sol 7236, que realmente aumenta o baixo.
[/ CITAR]

So I almost bought one today. But DenverW commented that this TS7236 does not differ much from the TS6080, being a very small update, and that the sound is the same as solid state I ended up giving up. I have the TS6080, and particularly, despite increasing the bass considerably, I did not like the mid range and treble of it.

Have you compared it to the TS6080? and already compared with TS 5998 or WE421A or even with Chatham 6as7g?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15543234, membro: 467979"]
> Sem problemas com o que eu tenho, mas isso é uma preocupação para você, você realmente precisa experimentar o favorito dos grupos Darkvoice, o Tung Sol 7236, que realmente aumenta o baixo.
> [/ CITAR]
> 
> ...


You should probably wait to see what the Ken Rad does for you. You sound like you have the monies, why don't you get them all and tell us what the difference is. That way if and when we get a T1 we'd have some type of reference to go by.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> You should probably wait to see what the Ken Rad does for you. You sound like you have the monies, why don't you get them all and tell us what the difference is. That way if and when we get a T1 we'd have some type of reference to go by.



Your irony amuses me! Having money is relative. It depends on the point of comparison. I can feel myself with more money than a person who can only buy an Essence STX and a Superlux HD681. But I can feel very poor around people who have Dna Stellaris and Hifiman he1000, for example. In fact, in relation to your standards, maybe I really am a person with money, since I imported two valves (Ken Rad and Tung-Sol 6Sn7) whose price, including taxes, would be equivalent to the salary of a month of manual labor here in Brazil. That for two little vavulazinhas. Perhaps this is the line of reasoning used by you. But abstracting out all the noise in the information passed here on the forum (which includes unfortunate comments like this), and since I am a very interested person only in the valuable information passed by serious people on this forum, I ignore your ironic comment.Ok.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Your irony amuses me! Having money is relative. It depends on the point of comparison. I can feel myself with more money than a person who can only buy an Essence STX and a Superlux HD681. But I can feel very poor around people who have Dna Stellaris and Hifiman he1000, for example. In fact, in relation to your standards, maybe I really am a person with money, since I imported two valves (Ken Rad and Tung-Sol 6Sn7) whose price, including taxes, would be equivalent to the salary of a month of manual labor here in Brazil. That for two little vavulazinhas. Perhaps this is the line of reasoning used by you. But abstracting out all the noise in the information passed here on the forum (which includes unfortunate comments like this), and since I am a very interested person only in the valuable information passed by serious people on this forum, I ignore your ironic comment.Ok.



Not sure I understand the tone of your post. You've asked a lot of questions in this thread which is fine and what it's for, and several people (including mostly @JKDJedi ) have shared their experience and opinions freely and honestly. And now this?  See how much 'valuable information' you get going forward...


----------



## SHIMACM (Apr 5, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Not sure I understand the tone of your post. You've asked a lot of questions in this thread which is fine and what it's for, and several people (including mostly @JKDJedi ) have shared their experience and opinions freely and honestly. And now this?  See how much 'valuable information' you get going forward...



The JKDjedi really gave a lot of good information. But that's the purpose of the forum, isn't it! If not because of his existence. Here is not a social network, where the main goal is to make friends. JKDjedi and everyone in this discussion group received impressions from other older users. It is your duty to pass on to the new ones. Just as the new ones, like me, will have the duty to pass on to those who will come. I intend to pass on the information I received and the information I acquired on my own to new users who want to optimize their equipment without spending unnecessarily. Because, if that is not the spirit, you can close the forum. It only makes sense here if there is solidarity. Now help first and mock later, the part of the irony I simply dismiss. I will be happy to help anyone, seriously and free of charge, regardless of the number of questions, and without any kind of debauchery or irony. As a member of Heard-Fi I have that duty. So feel free not to answer. If you, or anyone else here, need any information that I have the ability to answer, I will be happy to help. I have an excellent FDS.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> The JKDjedi really gave a lot of good information. But that's the purpose of the forum, isn't it! If not because of his existence. Here is not a social network, where the main goal is to make friends. JKDjedi and everyone in this discussion group received impressions from other older users. It is your duty to pass on to the new ones. Just as the new ones, like me, will have the duty to pass on to those who will come. I intend to pass on the information I received and the information I acquired on my own to new users who want to optimize their equipment without spending unnecessarily. Because, if that is not the spirit, you can close the forum. It only makes sense here if there is solidarity. Now help first and mock later, the part of the irony I simply dismiss. I will be happy to help anyone, seriously and free of charge, regardless of the number of questions, and without any kind of debauchery or irony. As a member of Heard-Fi I have that duty. So feel free not to answer. If you, or anyone else here, need any information that I have the ability to answer, I will be happy to help. I have an excellent FDS.


  Our group loves to mix and match tubes to experience (for themselves) the different sounds they produce off the Darkvoice amp. My only intention of that last post towards you was to push you into doing the same. This is all suppose to be fun, we're all fun loving guys here.


----------



## SHIMACM

Okay.  We are at peace.  But for me it is complicated to acquire many tubes.  In Brazil, taxes and exchange rates make everything American or European very expensive here.  I am also a fun and loving guy.  Discussions tire me.  What I really want is to be happy on my Darkvoice!


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> I'm not sure exactly what differences there are between the HD-650's and the Massdrop HD-6XX's, but the latter are currently $195, or about half the going price for the 650's in the US anyway. Also not sure if shipping/import duties would narrow that margin, but the HD-6XX's are a hell of a value (IMO) for the money so might be worth a look.


There is no difference, really.  6xx = 650.

As far as arcing, I’ve had one issue with a 421a, but I consider the vendor suspect.  I’ve had two other 421a and a 5998, and they worked fine.


----------



## SHIMACM

Ohhhh boy, it came to Ken Rad vt231. Phew .... What a valve! I'm not a poet like you to describe the sound, but I just know that I liked it a lot. The sound stage increased in width, but mainly in depth. Listening to Vivaldi, the instruments that before seemed very close to each other, were now more widely spaced, giving the sensation of being watching an orchestra in the third row. The middle ones are sweeter, and a little further. I can now hear echoes of the voice that I didn't hear before, again giving the feeling of being watching a show in a larger space. I confess that I still want a little more bass, because despite noticing them well defined, I still miss a little more punch. I was lucky to receive a valve without any noise and totally balanced. I'm using the RCA JAN 6as7g of power. I ended up buying a Mullard 6080 for power. It is a hotter valve than the RCA. I hope to get the rest of the bass I'm missing. But this will take time to arrive, because I bought it from Russia and it was posted yesterday.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> There is no difference, really.  6xx = 650.
> 
> As far as arcing, I’ve had one issue with a 421a, but I consider the vendor suspect.  I’ve had two other 421a and a 5998, and they worked fine.



So ... For me, due to taxes in my country, it doesn't pay to buy a 5998 or 421a. It would be very expensive. I've been reading good things about the Tung-Sol / Chatham 6as7g and the Mullard 6080. The Mullard I bought for $ 35, while the Tung-Sol / Chatham 6AS7G still didn't get a good valve. With shipping, I don't want to pay more than $ 50 on a valve. If I buy up to $ 50 I don't pay taxes. Now, over $ 50, I pay more or less 100% in taxes. So, if I buy a Tung-Sol 5998 for $ 150, I will pay another $ 150 in taxes, not counting the exchange rate that is 5 to 1. In short: The valve will cost a fortune and I'm still at risk of buying a bad valve.


----------



## DenverW

Ouch!  That stinks!  I did like the tung sol 6as7g.  Coke bottle tubes look pretty, too.


----------



## SHIMACM

If a Tung-Sol 7236 appears for $ 50 I buy it too. The way and have patience.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Ohhhh boy, it came to Ken Rad vt231. Phew .... What a valve! I'm not a poet like you to describe the sound, but I just know that I liked it a lot. The sound stage increased in width, but mainly in depth. Listening to Vivaldi, the instruments that before seemed very close to each other, were now more widely spaced, giving the sensation of being watching an orchestra in the third row. The middle ones are sweeter, and a little further. I can now hear echoes of the voice that I didn't hear before, again giving the feeling of being watching a show in a larger space. I confess that I still want a little more bass, because despite noticing them well defined, I still miss a little more punch. I was lucky to receive a valve without any noise and totally balanced. I'm using the RCA JAN 6as7g of power. I ended up buying a Mullard 6080 for power. It is a hotter valve than the RCA. I hope to get the rest of the bass I'm missing. But this will take time to arrive, because I bought it from Russia and it was posted yesterday.


You'll love that Mullard


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Ouch!  That stinks!  I did like the tung sol 6as7g.  Coke bottle tubes look pretty, too.


C Wing not bad for PC gaming


----------



## SHIMACM

Is this the good Sylvania that everyone talks about, or the common one?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Is this the good Sylvania that everyone talks about, or the common one?


Not to sure about that one, I have heard of the Gold Brand Sylvania 6080. Lot of nice reviews on that one.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Gold-Ban...992529?hash=item3da0df47d1:g:ylUAAOSwSD9ei7ej


----------



## SHIMACM

I read a lot about Sylvania Gold. My hope is that the one I bought was one, since it doesn't have that green logo and has a "G" next to the name Sylvania.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 13, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> I read a lot about Sylvania Gold. My hope is that the one I bought was one, since it doesn't have that green logo and has a "G" next to the name Sylvania.


Doesn't look like a GB, Gold Brands have the Gold Brand stamp on them and have golden rods going in between the plates. check out the pics in this posting.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Sylva...968472?hash=item469d9c2bd8:g:8qIAAOSwDABdhV5X
and yours seem to have just the one getter where GB have two. And check out the pics on the first ebay posting, it's stamped Gold Brand. Not sure what the G stands for on yours, but i can almost guarranty it's not Gold Brand. Might be a good sounding tube though, Sylvania's rock.


----------



## DenverW

I assume the G is part of the date or factory code.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 13, 2020)

DenverW said:


> I assume the G is part of the date or factory code.


I couldn't resist getting that first ebay posting.. for $17!? Have a pair of the 6080WA , just curious about the 6080 initial version of that tube. The super rare ones seem to be the one's with three mica's and metal base.


----------



## SHIMACM

Thank you guys. What a pity. Anyway, I will listen to you calmly, and, anything, seeing you here.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I couldn't resist getting that first ebay posting.. for $17!? Have a pair of the 6080WA version, just curious about the 6080 initial version of that tube. The super rare ones seem to be the one's with three mica's and metal base.



You bought it. Congratulations on the acquisition. I was also watching him, but shipping was costing a lot.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 13, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> You bought it. Congratulations on the acquisition. I was also watching him, but shipping was costing a lot.


Could you please do a comparison of the Sylvania and Mullard you have on you? I'd like your input on the two. thanks. Oh the buy, yes thanks, The guy lives two hours away from me..lol. Just noticed the buyers address. Looks like he has more, you should grab one!


----------



## SHIMACM

Mullard will take a while to arrive. I bought it from Russia. When I arrive, I compare the two and give you my impressions.


----------



## JKDJedi

The 6080 arrived today, gonna get use too it for a couple of days then compare it to the 6080WA. I'm listening to it right now with some Cigarettes After Sex. Very smooth. I'm doubtful there be much difference, but hey, I'm locked in! It was funny at first opening i got distracted to answer the door, come back and ...which one is which! They look very similar, i eventually noticed the markings on the tubes, whew!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The 6080 arrived today, gonna get use too it for a couple of days then compare it to the 6080WA. I'm listening to it right now with some Cigarettes After Sex. Very smooth. I'm doubtful there be much difference, but hey, I'm locked in! It was funny at first opening i got distracted to answer the door, come back and ...which one is which! They look very similar, i eventually noticed the markings on the tubes, whew!



Sweet!  Be interested in your thoughts once you have a handle on it.  How does that Frankie sound in the DV?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Be interested in your thoughts once you have a handle on it.  How does that Frankie sound in the DV?


Incredible dynamics.I almost sold the pair, and a member here saw the listing and asked me privately...why!? So I then asked myself the same question... pulled the listing and there it is, on my Darkvoice, might stay there for another two weeks. Like the history of it, the precursor of the 6SN7 tube..


----------



## bcowen

Amp is here...hooray!  Now the fun begins. First some break-in time is in order, so an RCA 6AS7GA for starters and popped in a Frankie just to copycat @JKDJedi .   Sounds extremely good right now, but I anticipate it'll be even better after 15 - 20 hours of play time.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Amp is here...hooray!  Now the fun begins. First some break-in time is in order, so an RCA 6AS7GA for starters and popped in a Frankie just to copycat @JKDJedi .   Sounds extremely good right now, but I anticipate it'll be even better after 15 - 20 hours of play time.


Beautiful amp there!! And no...we owe you that dubious honor on the Frankie! Tha KS for sharing!


----------



## johanchandy (Apr 16, 2020)

Hey everyone, here's my darkvoice with a Winged "C" 6H13C power tube with Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z 6SN7 tube. I find the sound to be amazing, quite expansive but I find it sounds too close to my schiit heresy to my liking (the darkvoice sounds more alive though). What would be an upgrade to this tube configuration? Would changing the Winged "C" tube to a RCA NOS 6AS7G  be the right way to go? I want the amp to sound a bit more tubey, rich and lush over accuracy, the amp is paired with hd6xx's, any help would be appreciated1


----------



## JKDJedi

johanchandy said:


> Hey everyone, here's my darkvoice with a Winged "C" 6H13C power tube with Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z 6SN7 tube. I find the sound to be amazing, quite expansive but I find it sounds too close to my schiit heresy to my liking (the darkvoice sounds more alive though). What would be an upgrade to this tube configuration? Would changing the Winged "C" tube to a RCA NOS 6AS7G  be the right way to go? I want the amp to sound a bit more tubey, rich and lush over accuracy, the amp is paired with hd6xx's, any help would be appreciated1


Tubey sound for hD6xx... Definitely replace the Shuguang. Sylvania tubes have that nice tubed sound your looking for. 6SN7GT from low to mid 50's. The C Wing was my first replacement from stock and that suits well with some 6SN7 type, and you could upgrade later on from there too. Try the Sylvania, not that expensive, just hard to find sometimes.


----------



## johanchandy

JKDJedi said:


> Tubey sound for hD6xx... Definitely replace the Shuguang. Sylvania tubes have that nice tubed sound your looking for. 6SN7GT from low to mid 50's. The C Wing was my first replacement from stock and that suits well with some 6SN7 type, and you could upgrade later on from there too. Try the Sylvania, not that expensive, just hard to find sometimes.


Thank you! This is useful. Sad to replace the Shuguang tho, I love how pretty it looks haha, but the tube sound is what I'm going for so I'll try a sylvania tube for sure. What would a nice upgrade to the winged c tube be?


----------



## JKDJedi

johanchandy said:


> Thank you! This is useful. Sad to replace the Shuguang tho, I love how pretty it looks haha, but the tube sound is what I'm going for so I'll try a sylvania tube for sure. What would a nice upgrade to the winged c tube be?


If you really want that tubed sound to go off the charts... Tung Sol 5998 or Western Electric 421a. RCA will clear vocals up, that would be the first economic choice, to keep it tubed sounding, the first two are a little more up in pricing.


----------



## johanchandy

JKDJedi said:


> If you really want that tubed sound to go off the charts... Tung Sol 5998 or Western Electric 421a. RCA will clear vocals up, that would be the first economic choice, to keep it tubed sounding, the first two are a little more up in pricing.


Thanks again! Damn those are pricey! I'll have to save up!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Amp is here...hooray!  Now the fun begins. First some break-in time is in order, so an RCA 6AS7GA for starters and popped in a Frankie just to copycat @JKDJedi .   Sounds extremely good right now, but I anticipate it'll be even better after 15 - 20 hours of play time.


What amp is that, if I may ask?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What amp is that, if I may ask?



It's an Incubus Elegans, which is Latin for something I think.   Made by a friend but not a commercial product. At least right now...


----------



## bcowen

johanchandy said:


> Thank you! This is useful. Sad to replace the Shuguang tho, I love how pretty it looks haha, but the tube sound is what I'm going for so I'll try a sylvania tube for sure. What would a nice upgrade to the winged c tube be?



I have a couple of those Svet's. Mine are really special because they were Made in England by Amperex.  LOL!!  A Russkie by any other name is still a Russkie...

Not a bad tube by any means, but with my limited rolling with this tube type to date, I much prefer an RCA 6AS7GA.  Probably the same internals as their 6AS7G with the 'A' denoting a straight bottle rather than the ST shape.  I'll be comparing a Cetron 7236 to a Tung Sol 7236 this weekend and doing my best to keep preconceived notions aside that the Tung Sol will be better.

If you find a great deal on a Tung Sol 5998 or a WE 421A, let me know. I've been on the hunt for a couple months now and the ones that look good and legit are just too pricey for my blood.  The couple I've run across that have prices I could live with have big questions surrounding them, like "not tested, as-is, no returns" or "NOS, never used, PRISTINE!!" with pictures of the getter flashing being a nice, chalky white.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> The couple I've run across that have prices I could live with have big questions surrounding them, like "not tested, as-is, no returns" or "NOS, never used, PRISTINE!!" *with pictures of the getter flashing being a nice, chalky white*.


That's a tell-tale sign that the vacuum seal is compromised = dead tube.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> That's a tell-tale sign that the vacuum seal is compromised = dead tube.



Yup, the auction price was at $5 when I first saw it and it ended up going for $139.  In one way I feel sorry for the poor chump that handed over $140 for a dead tube, and in another way I don't often feel sorry for people with more money than sense.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yup, the auction price was at $5 when I first saw it and it ended up going for $139.  In one way I feel sorry for the poor chump that handed over $140 for a dead tube, and in another way I don't often feel sorry for people with more money than sense.


There's one out there for $199, I'd make an offer just for giggles. They might bite.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There's one out there for $199, I'd make an offer just for giggles. They might bite.



I saw that one, but the test readings show it's about used up. On a TV-7 an average NOS reading would be around 70, and that one is measuring in the 40's -- just above minimum.


----------



## bcowen

Another poor sucker just bit the dust. No way to test, as-is, no returns. This would have been an absolute treasure (and likely fetch $3k+) if it worked.  Unfortunately, that white stuff at the bottom is not glue.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> It's an Incubus Elegans, which is Latin for something I think.   Made by a friend but not a commercial product. At least right now...


I guessed so... and the craftsmanship gives the friend away, perhaps. How's the sound?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I guessed so... and the craftsmanship gives the friend away, perhaps. How's the sound?



The sound is quite outstanding to my ears.  This is my first OTL so don't have anything to directly compare it to. The 13 ohm impedance of my main 'phones (Aeon 2's) is just too low for this amp to deal with, so I can't offer a meaningful comparison between this amp and the Lyr 3 with those 'phones.  But I can say this: I'm using some HD-6XX's with this amp ($185 versus $900 for the Aeons), and while the presentation is obviously different, I could listen to either system all day long and easily immerse myself in the music and forget about the equipment. Even the tubes. And I don't have a fever.


----------



## wwmhf

Here is my recent experience in buying 7236 from Ebay. I bought two Cetron 7236 for $25/each. I was surprised by the fact these 7236s are different from Tung Sol 7236 tubes in my hand. Even though I do not like the oddity of these Centron 7236, I decide to keep them, especially the smaller one, just as a collection. No, I haven't listened to them yet.  

1. These Centron came in a HUGE (compared with the tube itself) tube box which is in almost new condition:








2. These two Centron 7236s have different sizes, one is obviously much shorter than the other. However, their internals seem to be the same, and so are their date codes:







3. These Centron 7236s are smaller than the Tung Sol 7236s in my possession:


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> Here is my recent experience in buying 7236 from Ebay. I bought two Cetron 7236 for $25/each. I was surprised by the fact these 7236s are different from Tung Sol 7236 tubes in my hand. Even though I do not like the oddity of these Centron 7236, I decide to keep them, especially the smaller one, just as a collection. No, I haven't listened to them yet.
> 
> 1. These Centron came in a HUGE (compared with the tube itself) tube box which is in almost new condition:
> 
> ...


That's interesting that they're different sizes...lol. I'm super curious on the comparison to the Tung Sol.


----------



## bcowen

wwmhf said:


> Here is my recent experience in buying 7236 from Ebay. I bought two Cetron 7236 for $25/each. I was surprised by the fact these 7236s are different from Tung Sol 7236 tubes in my hand. Even though I do not like the oddity of these Centron 7236, I decide to keep them, especially the smaller one, just as a collection. No, I haven't listened to them yet.
> 
> 1. These Centron came in a HUGE (compared with the tube itself) tube box which is in almost new condition:
> 
> ...



_Very_ interesting. I have 6 of them, also bought for $25 (each) and probably from the same seller (if you got yours in the last month or so). I haven't paid attention to the bottle sizes though. I have a Tung Sol as well and was planning to do some comparisons between the two this afternoon, but then my wife woke up.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> _Very_ interesting. I have 6 of them, also bought for $25 (each) and probably from the same seller (if you got yours in the last month or so). I haven't paid attention to the bottle sizes though. I have a Tung Sol as well and was planning to do some comparisons between the two this afternoon, but then my wife woke up.


L M F A O ...


----------



## wwmhf

bcowen said:


> _Very_ interesting. I have 6 of them, also bought for $25 (each) and probably from the same seller (if you got yours in the last month or so). I haven't paid attention to the bottle sizes though. I have a Tung Sol as well and was planning to do some comparisons between the two this afternoon, but then my wife woke up.



I bought mine last week from the seller linked blow. I bought the last two and think this is very like the same seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuu...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## bcowen

wwmhf said:


> I bought mine last week from the seller linked blow. I bought the last two and think this is very like the same seller:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuum-TUBES-METAL-BASE-5998-6AS7-7236-free-shipping-USA/202832835508?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



Yup, one and the same.


----------



## bcowen

wwmhf said:


> I bought mine last week from the seller linked blow. I bought the last two and think this is very like the same seller:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-vacuum-TUBES-METAL-BASE-5998-6AS7-7236-free-shipping-USA/202832835508?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



Mine are all pretty much the same height. The one on the right is a tiny bit taller, but that may be due to it not being seated as far down in the base rather than the glass itself being different.  The Tung Sol on the left is quite a bit taller.


----------



## wwmhf

I do not know how these Cetron 7236 tubes will sound, but I am impressed by their packaging box, the largest I ever saw compared with the tubes themselves.


----------



## bcowen

wwmhf said:


> I do not know how these Cetron 7236 tubes will sound, but I am impressed by their packaging box, the largest I ever saw compared with the tubes themselves.



The box is extreme overkill, like it was made for another tube or something else entirely. Certainly protects and cushions the tube nicely though. Also funny how the padding inside 3 of mine is very thick, and the other 3 it's much thinner and they just used more of it. Then the bottle sizes being different from the same coded manufacture dates...weird.  I'm left wondering if Richardson (or whoever made these) was using up a bunch of excess inventory parts and mix'n'matching things together until they ran out.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I guessed so... and the craftsmanship gives the friend away, perhaps. How's the sound?


Some more of my work, complete with cat.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Some more of my work, complete with cat.



Wait....I didn't get a cat with mine.  I'm highly upset you didn't even tell me about that option.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Some more of my work, complete with cat.


Yep, I guessed so, Tom. Looks gorgeous. I am sure they sound great, too - even Bill says so!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yep, I guessed so, Tom. Looks gorgeous. I am sure they sound great, too - even Bill says so!


Yeah but Bill is Bill. Ask him for wine advice sometime and you would be better off talking to my cat.


----------



## johanchandy

bcowen said:


> I have a couple of those Svet's. Mine are really special because they were Made in England by Amperex.  LOL!!  A Russkie by any other name is still a Russkie...
> 
> Not a bad tube by any means, but with my limited rolling with this tube type to date, I much prefer an RCA 6AS7GA.  Probably the same internals as their 6AS7G with the 'A' denoting a straight bottle rather than the ST shape.  I'll be comparing a Cetron 7236 to a Tung Sol 7236 this weekend and doing my best to keep preconceived notions aside that the Tung Sol will be better.
> 
> If you find a great deal on a Tung Sol 5998 or a WE 421A, let me know. I've been on the hunt for a couple months now and the ones that look good and legit are just too pricey for my blood.  The couple I've run across that have prices I could live with have big questions surrounding them, like "not tested, as-is, no returns" or "NOS, never used, PRISTINE!!" with pictures of the getter flashing being a nice, chalky white.



I jumped on a Sylvania gold brand 6080, do you know how that compares to the rca tube?
Regarding the Tung Sol 5998's, I saw some of the prices and stopped looking lol


----------



## Paladin79

johanchandy said:


> I jumped on a Sylvania gold brand 6080, do you know how that compares to the rca tube?
> Regarding the Tung Sol 5998's, I saw some of the prices and stopped looking lol


I am including a NOS Tung Sol 5998 with one of my amps, that and a 1963 Melz NOS, the 5998 has been popular for years and the price represents that. I have a fondness for the RCA ST's as well but the Sylvania is probably comparable.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah but Bill is Bill. Ask him for wine advice sometime and you would be better off talking to my cat.



At least you have a cat.  I didn't get one.


----------



## bcowen

johanchandy said:


> I jumped on a Sylvania gold brand 6080, do you know how that compares to the rca tube?
> Regarding the Tung Sol 5998's, I saw some of the prices and stopped looking lol



I have some non-gold brand Sylvania 6080's but have not listened to them yet.  I'll put one in the lineup. I'll assume the gold brand will be better, but they should at least have some similarities.

I saw the prices of the TS 5998's and have _kept_ looking. LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Just an early observation and I hate to state an opinion with such a short listening period, but right now the Cetron 7236 kicks the RCA 6AS7GA to the curb. No contest between the two. The Cetron is more dynamic both micro and macro, has considerably more low-level detail, and has better separation between instruments and layering in the soundstage that's immediately apparent.  It's also a bit hotter on top which is not an issue with this amp and the HD-6XX's, but could be a drawback in a setup that's teetering close to treble excess or fatigue.  Have to be a bit careful with this comparison as the 7236 has over 2x the amplification factor of a 6AS7, and louder almost always sounds better. I'm cognizant of that and have matched volume levels as closely as possible, but that's even more difficult when one tube is more dynamic than the other.  I'll continue to listen, and then hopefully get the Tung Sol in there tonight while my ears are fresh.


----------



## wwmhf

bcowen said:


> Just an early observation and I hate to state an opinion with such a short listening period, but right now the Cetron 7236 kicks the RCA 6AS7GA to the curb. No contest between the two. The Cetron is more dynamic both micro and macro, has considerably more low-level detail, and has better separation between instruments and layering in the soundstage that's immediately apparent.  It's also a bit hotter on top which is not an issue with this amp and the HD-6XX's, but could be a drawback in a setup that's teetering close to treble excess or fatigue.  Have to be a bit careful with this comparison as the 7236 has over 2x the amplification factor of a 6AS7, and louder almost always sounds better. I'm cognizant of that and have matched volume levels as closely as possible, but that's even more difficult when one tube is more dynamic than the other.  I'll continue to listen, and then hopefully get the Tung Sol in there tonight while my ears are fresh.



Sounds like 7236, made by Tung Sol or not ...


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> Sounds like 7236, made by Tung Sol or not ...


Getting my popcorn ready. .


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Getting my popcorn ready. .



Hope you didn't start the microwave yet.    Put the Tung Sol in and I'm getting a hum and crackle in the left channel, dangit. A couple light taps on the top and it goes away for a second then comes back. The tube tests at NOS levels in the Hickok and is unused as best I can tell visually. Hoping maybe it's just a stray piece of foreign object or some contamination that may burn off, but I don't want to leave it in the amp like that. I'll let it simmer for a while tomorrow in the Weston (has a much beefier transformer than the Hickok) and see what happens.

So I have the NEC 6520 plugged in and percolating now, but that might not justify popcorn.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Hope you didn't start the microwave yet.    Put the Tung Sol in and I'm getting a hum and crackle in the left channel, dangit. A couple light taps on the top and it goes away for a second then comes back. The tube tests at NOS levels in the Hickok and is unused as best I can tell visually. Hoping maybe it's just a stray piece of foreign object or some contamination that may burn off, but I don't want to leave it in the amp like that. I'll let it simmer for a while tomorrow in the Weston (has a much beefier transformer than the Hickok) and see what happens.
> 
> So I have the NEC 6520 plugged in and percolating now, but that might not justify popcorn.


Mine was doing the same, left channel crackle, I zapped the pins with sodder iron, seemed to help.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Mine was doing the same, left channel crackle, I zapped the pins with sodder iron, seemed to help.



Ahhh...hadn't thought of that.  Guess I've mentally assigned sole ownership of that issue to Fotons.   I'll give it a try..thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Mine was doing the same, left channel crackle, I zapped the pins with sodder iron, seemed to help.


Re-flowing solder can help especially on Russian made tubes like Foton and Melz and I had not heard of many issues with American made or British made tubes but there may well be issues with some of the Tung Sols so I am curious what Bill finds out on his.

I no longer re-flow solder in tube pins, I replace as much of the solder as I can. Since it is consistently bad on Russian tubes I have dealt with, I do not like the idea of just remelting what is there and hoping there is enough rosin left to clean the solder joint. (that is what rosin does). I use a solder sucker, remove the old solder, and with a narrow pick I drip fresh rosin flux into each pin, then re-solder using Kester solder with a small percentage of silver. This is not a task for someone who has not soldered before and care should be given when doing this but I do it with every Foton and Melz 1578 type tube I lay my hands on. I have taught Bill this method and hopefully he has good luck with his tube. 

I began experimenting when I was told that Foton 6n8s tubes required as much as 100 hours burn in, and such a statement made no sense to me. What was most likely happening was after that many hours the rosin began to re-flow after the tube got warm for a long period of time. Basically I took two identical tubes, replaced the solder in each and ran one for 100 hours, after that period of time nothing had changed except the emission was slightly less than the tube I did not cook. There was no roller coaster ride, as some described it with the tube getting better and worse etc. One gentleman even found that at least one tube he had tested and run for 100 hours tested and stored as good, tested with low emission on one channel when retested. He then replaced the solder and it was fine. While the Russians were given some tube equipment during WW 2 I imagine they started manufacturing their own solder at some point and after 60 years or so, it was starting to break down. That is not solder I want to leave inside tubes that might be worth $120 each now, (Melz not Fotons). There is rosin in the center core of most electronic solder but even with that, if any of you have ever made your own cables using Chinese made connectors, it may not be enough to get the solder to adhere and additional liquid rosin flux is required, imagine the inside of a 60 year old tube pin that you cannot even see well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Re-flowing solder can help especially on Russian made tubes like Foton and Melz and I had not heard of many issues with American made or British made tubes but there may well be issues with some of the Tung Sols so I am curious what Bill finds out on his.
> 
> I no longer re-flow solder in tube pins, I replace as much of the solder as I can. Since it is consistently bad on Russian tubes I have dealt with, I do not like the idea of just remelting what is there and hoping there is enough rosin left to clean the solder joint. (that is what rosin does). I use a solder sucker, remove the old solder, and with a narrow pick I drip fresh rosin flux into each pin, then re-solder using Kester solder with a small percentage of silver. This is not a task for someone who has not soldered before and care should be given when doing this but I do it with every Foton and Melz 1578 type tube I lay my hands on. I have taught Bill this method and hopefully he has good luck with his tube.
> 
> I began experimenting when I was told that Foton 6n8s tubes required as much as 100 hours burn in, and such a statement made no sense to me. What was most likely happening was after that many hours the rosin began to re-flow after the tube got warm for a long period of time. Basically I took two identical tubes, replaced the solder in each and ran one for 100 hours, after that period of time nothing had changed except the emission was slightly less than the tube I did not cook. There was no roller coaster ride, as some described it with the tube getting better and worse etc. One gentleman even found that at least one tube he had tested and run for 100 hours tested and stored as good, tested with low emission on one channel when retested. He then replaced the solder and it was fine. While the Russians were given some tube equipment during WW 2 I imagine they started manufacturing their own solder at some point and after 60 years or so, it was starting to break down. That is not solder I want to leave inside tubes that might be worth $120 each now, (Melz not Fotons). There is rosin in the center core of most electronic solder but even with that, if any of you have ever made your own cables using Chinese made connectors, it may not be enough to get the solder to adhere and additional liquid rosin flux is required, imagine the inside of a 60 year old tube pin that you cannot even see well.



With the Fotons, I initially just reheated the pin(s) and added a touch more solder. After you had described your method of sucking out all the old solder and fully replacing it (and after helping by directing me to an inexpensive but quite effective 'sucker') I started doing that as it obviously made perfect sense.

And I'm happy to say that replacing the solder in the Tung Sol 7236 fixed it -- dead quiet now with no crackle.  Thanks to @JKDJedi for pointing this out here as what _should_ have been obvious to me obviously wasn't.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> With the Fotons, I initially just reheated the pin(s) and added a touch more solder. After you had described your method of sucking out all the old solder and fully replacing it (and after helping by directing me to an inexpensive but quite effective 'sucker') I started doing that as it obviously made perfect sense.
> 
> And I'm happy to say that replacing the solder in the Tung Sol 7236 fixed it -- dead quiet now with no crackle.  Thanks to @JKDJedi for pointing this out here as what _should_ have been obvious to me obviously wasn't.


I am glad you got it fixed, I have had pretty good luck with Tung Sol overall but I will have to keep an eye on the 7236's if I ever go that route.  I will also have to look into things besides gain before I use them as replacements for 6080's and such.


----------



## wwmhf

It seems to me a unusual approach, but it is good to know it is there in case


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah but Bill is Bill. Ask him for wine advice sometime and you would be better off talking to my cat.


Is it not animal abuse to give cat wine?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> While the Russians were given some tube equipment during WW 2


not quite. they bought equipment from RCA in the 1930ties.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> not quite. they bought equipment from RCA in the 1930ties.


interesting, I recalled they ended up with some of that technology but did not recall the details


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Is it not animal abuse to give cat wine?


I do not give wine to cats, I was messing with Bill. My cats do not talk either other than the occasional meow. I only build class A amps and it does tend to keep the cats warm though, Finnegan is snuggling up next to a demo I am sending out next week if all goes well..


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> not quite. they bought equipment from RCA in the 1930ties.


I looked it up and some technology was shared with many of our allies in WW 2 including some types of tubes but I was thinking more of tube manufacturing and I am sure you are correct there. I can find little on the subject when I search.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> interesting, I recalled they ended up with some of that technology but did not recall the details


here they go
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-146#post-14903639
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-304#post-15174887
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-147#post-14903887


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I looked it up and some technology was shared with many of our allies in WW 2 including some types of tubes but I was thinking more of tube manufacturing and I am sure you are correct there. I can find little on the subject when I search.


You need to read Russian to find out, and even so it is quite a task


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I do not give wine to cats


I did not believe you did, just clowning


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I did not believe you did, just clowning


NP, and you did some wonderful posts on the tubes of Russia. My language skills do not include Russian but I am using some of their transformers and tubes in my amp builds.    Most likely I will help Bill with his Fotons if he is serious, the 1958 can be a decent year in those once you fix the solder in the pins and last I looked they are still readily available.


----------



## bcowen

So I spent some time today with the healed Tung Sol 7236.  Absolutely spectacular.  Spectacularly meh, sad to say.  The RCA 6AS7GA is actually more musically engaging to my ears and preferences. The Tung Sol is better than the RCA in a couple areas: overall dynamics and a bit cleaner and more focused sounding, but it's anemic in the bass, obscures low level detail and harmonic info, and has treble that's not necessarily edgy or irritating, but is overblown and out of balance with the rest of the frequency spectrum. Disappointed? To be sure.  I was hoping it would trump the Cetron.  I put the Cetron back in to confirm my comparative impressions, and it pretty well kicks the Tung Sol to the curb.  That said, there are a couple areas where the Cetron falls down.  Bass extension and impact is not the best, and while not thin and lean like the Tung Sol, it doesn't bring across the shuddering level of low bass on some tracks that I expect it on. And that 'hot' treble I mentioned earlier? While still not fatiguing per se it's just not enjoyable. Hard sounding I guess, and becomes kind of tedious to listen to.  But the Cetron excels enough in other areas I'm going to work with it and see what can be achieved. First, it only has around 5 hours on it. Many tubes need longer break-in time to fully stabilize and strut their stuff, so I'm currently playing it and will give it about 25 hours of music time to see if it what I don't like becomes more likable. I also haven't tried any other 6SN7's, leaving the Foton in there just for consistency. The Foton used on its own in the Lyr or Vali has a wonderful treble -- extended, airy, detailed, and never fatiguing. But maybe just not the right partner for the Cetron. The Foton doesn't have the strongest bass either. Good definition and great rhythm in that area, but not a bass powerhouse by any means. After the Cetron gets its extended play time I'll give it another listen, and if time hasn't helped (or helped enough) I'll stick the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 in there which has full and extended bass and a rather forgiving treble.  Film at 11:30.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So I spent some time today with the healed Tung Sol 7236.  Absolutely spectacular.  Spectacularly meh, sad to say.  The RCA 6AS7GA is actually more musically engaging to my ears and preferences. The Tung Sol is better than the RCA in a couple areas: overall dynamics and a bit cleaner and more focused sounding, but it's anemic in the bass, obscures low level detail and harmonic info, and has treble that's not necessarily edgy or irritating, but is overblown and out of balance with the rest of the frequency spectrum. Disappointed? To be sure.  I was hoping it would trump the Cetron.  I put the Cetron back in to confirm my comparative impressions, and it pretty well kicks the Tung Sol to the curb.  That said, there are a couple areas where the Cetron falls down.  Bass extension and impact is not the best, and while not thin and lean like the Tung Sol, it doesn't bring across the shuddering level of low bass on some tracks that I expect it on. And that 'hot' treble I mentioned earlier? While still not fatiguing per se it's just not enjoyable. Hard sounding I guess, and becomes kind of tedious to listen to.  But the Cetron excels enough in other areas I'm going to work with it and see what can be achieved. First, it only has around 5 hours on it. Many tubes need longer break-in time to fully stabilize and strut their stuff, so I'm currently playing it and will give it about 25 hours of music time to see if it what I don't like becomes more likable. I also haven't tried any other 6SN7's, leaving the Foton in there just for consistency. The Foton used on its own in the Lyr or Vali has a wonderful treble -- extended, airy, detailed, and never fatiguing. But maybe just not the right partner for the Cetron. The Foton doesn't have the strongest bass either. Good definition and great rhythm in that area, but not a bass powerhouse by any means. After the Cetron gets its extended play time I'll give it another listen, and if time hasn't helped (or helped enough) I'll stick the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 in there which has full and extended bass and a rather forgiving treble.  Film at 11:30.


That Tung Sol will open up,


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So I spent some time today with the healed Tung Sol 7236.  Absolutely spectacular.  Spectacularly meh, sad to say.  The RCA 6AS7GA is actually more musically engaging to my ears and preferences. The Tung Sol is better than the RCA in a couple areas: overall dynamics and a bit cleaner and more focused sounding, but it's anemic in the bass, obscures low level detail and harmonic info, and has treble that's not necessarily edgy or irritating, but is overblown and out of balance with the rest of the frequency spectrum. Disappointed? To be sure.  I was hoping it would trump the Cetron.  I put the Cetron back in to confirm my comparative impressions, and it pretty well kicks the Tung Sol to the curb.  That said, there are a couple areas where the Cetron falls down.  Bass extension and impact is not the best, and while not thin and lean like the Tung Sol, it doesn't bring across the shuddering level of low bass on some tracks that I expect it on. And that 'hot' treble I mentioned earlier? While still not fatiguing per se it's just not enjoyable. Hard sounding I guess, and becomes kind of tedious to listen to.  But the Cetron excels enough in other areas I'm going to work with it and see what can be achieved. First, it only has around 5 hours on it. Many tubes need longer break-in time to fully stabilize and strut their stuff, so I'm currently playing it and will give it about 25 hours of music time to see if it what I don't like becomes more likable. I also haven't tried any other 6SN7's, leaving the Foton in there just for consistency. The Foton used on its own in the Lyr or Vali has a wonderful treble -- extended, airy, detailed, and never fatiguing. But maybe just not the right partner for the Cetron. The Foton doesn't have the strongest bass either. Good definition and great rhythm in that area, but not a bass powerhouse by any means. After the Cetron gets its extended play time I'll give it another listen, and if time hasn't helped (or helped enough) I'll stick the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 in there which has full and extended bass and a rather forgiving treble.  Film at 11:30.


I could loan you a very nice Tung Sol 5998 but I have been far too kind to you lately. I will watch for likely candidates instead.


----------



## Absoltuion

Does anyone have the voltages of what their transformer is outputting or at least the voltages of the 3 capacitors in rear?


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Does anyone have the voltages of what their transformer is outputting or at least the voltages of the 3 capacitors in rear?


No transformer on an Output Transformerless amp  (OTL)


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> No transformer on an Output Transformerless amp  (OTL)



Maybe I should have been more clear. I'm looking for the main transformer's specs. But I've already started desoldering everything to get to it


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> Does anyone have the voltages of what their transformer is outputting or at least the voltages of the 3 capacitors in rear?



Might be less than 200V by the picture here:

https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details...36-se-otl-headphone-amplifier/images/1847485/

where you can see that the parameters for those capacitors are 820/200. I think the first number 820 is for the capacity and the 2nd number is for the voltage tolerance.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> Might be less than 200V by the picture here:
> 
> https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details...36-se-otl-headphone-amplifier/images/1847485/
> 
> where you can see that the parameters for those capacitors are 820/200. I think the first number 820 is for the capacity and the 2nd number is for the voltage tolerance.



I had did that short diagram up.These were the reading from my amp.

EDIT:
Green is rated value
Yellow is value metered.
Red is resistors
Blue is heater grid voltage metered.


----------



## wwmhf

wwmhf said:


> Might be less than 200V by the picture here:
> 
> https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details...36-se-otl-headphone-amplifier/images/1847485/
> 
> where you can see that the parameters for those capacitors are 820/200. I think the first number 820 is for the capacity and the 2nd number is for the voltage tolerance.



One more picture about the voltage across those capacitors (from the Internet)


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> I had did that short diagram up.These were the reading from my amp.



This is very useful, thanks a lot!


----------



## Paladin79

I suspect the caps are 250 volt from the schematics I have seen, there is a power transformer.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I suspect the caps are 250 volt from the schematics I have seen, there is a power transformer.


They are rated @200V one of them is overvolted @ 205ish due to the 100V japan transformer being fed 120V (US)


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

This is where I'm currently at with the tear down, gonna take a break. I'm also unable to get the image to rotate correctly or load onto page.


----------



## wwmhf (Apr 20, 2020)

Absoltuion said:


> This is where I'm currently at with the tear down, gonna take a break. I'm also unable to get the image to rotate correctly or load onto page.



I tried to post your picture for you, but the size seems to be too large.


----------



## Absoltuion

wwmhf said:


> Let me post your picture for you:



maybe it's too big. I was trying to get it as a preview image so people didn't have to open it.


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> maybe it's too big. I was trying to get it as a preview image so people didn't have to open it.



But for what you are doing, thanks a lot for sharing. This is really helpful for me because I have a brand new one still in the unopened box (for more than a year now) purely bought for modding it.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> But for what you are doing, thanks a lot for sharing. This is really helpful for me because I have a brand new one still in the unopened box (for more than a year now) purely bought for modding it.



I can tell you right now I'm probably just gonna build a new case for it to grant me more room. It seems as if they building as they went without much though on disassembly (arguably so). In order to get to the transformer there are four screws to get too. First two are easy they are behind the 3 caps at rear. However the second two are much more complicated to get to. First you must remove the PCB that has the output caps, on mine the wires coming from transformer were extremely short so I had to desolder those as well. Once that is removed you can remove two screws of the four screws that are component tray. The next two are at front of amp, beside the switch and behind the pot. ( remove the headphone jack, pot nut, power switch)

Once this tray is out you can get the last two screws holding on the transformer cover. If you do end up keeping your case it might be simple mod to just drill two holes in the tray where transformer screws are. That way you don't have to remove the components tray again.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

Got the tray out. Side note they really liked crushing caps.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed on mine was the ground bonding screw they used was attached to the crinkle coat. I'm very sure that's not a great bond.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm starting to think this is a sick joke. It's some kind of hard epoxy holding it together not screws.


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> I'm starting to think this is a sick joke. It's some kind of hard epoxy holding it together not screws.



Reducing the humming by gluing?


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> Got the tray out. Side note they really liked crushing caps.
> 
> EDIT: Another thing I noticed on mine was the ground bonding screw they used was attached to the crinkle coat. I'm very sure that's not a great bond.



Would you please show a complete picture of the tray? Thanks


----------



## Absoltuion

wwmhf said:


> Would you please show a complete picture of the tray? Thanks



SURE! I'm sorry I currently have the film capacitors desoldered but I've tried to line everything up to the location it's supposed to be in!


----------



## Absoltuion

Okay so I got the epoxy cut in the most terrifying way possible!
I placed it on the floor and pushed down on the blade and the expoy broke free with a pop after I got part of the way through. After that I used something to pry the cover free from it's base.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

We got a transformer! Also the strangest thing this isn't a Japan rated one in mine! Japan runs on 60hz 100V 
EDIT: I was mistaken as I was only remembering Okinawa the upper half of japan is 50HZ the lower half is 60HZ.I'm sorry for my mistake if you've already read this.


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> SURE! I'm sorry I currently have the film capacitors desoldered but I've tried to line everything up to the location it's supposed to be in!



Many thanks!


----------



## bcowen (Apr 20, 2020)

Absoltuion said:


> I'm starting to think this is a sick joke. It's some kind of hard epoxy holding it together not screws.



Potting transformers is a fairly common practice. Helps to reduce vibration and possibly resonances inside the cover.

**Edit**  Oops, so it's not potted.  Perhaps it was just epoxy or some other adhesive as you suggested.  I should have read the rest of the thread first.


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Potting transformers is a fairly common practice. Helps to reduce vibration and possibly resonances inside the cover.
> 
> **Edit**  Oops, so it's not potted.  Perhaps it was just epoxy or some other adhesive as you suggested.  I should have read the rest of the thread first.



Really it was just the amount of stuff to get to the transformer itself that was bugging me. The case didn't seem to be much of a thought process besides it looking good. Although I love the looks of it I'm probably gonna end up making another case for it just to make it easier to mess with.

EDIT: and just to clarify I'm not only talking about Repair but production.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> We got a transformer! Also the strangest thing this isn't a Japan rated one in mine! Japan runs on 60hz 100V
> EDIT: I was mistaken as I was only remembering Okinawa the upper half of japan is 50HZ the lower half is 60HZ.I'm sorry for my mistake if you've already read this.


Noob question, power gets filtered through this unit (Transformer) before hitting the tubes? Or what exactly does this do?


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Noob question, power gets filtered through this unit (Transformer) before hitting the tubes? Or what exactly does this do?


From my layman's knowledge Rectified DC is choppy so they use caps to smooth it out.
EDIT: transformers do not convert AC to DC they only step up or step down voltages.In order to convert AC to DC You are required to use a bridge rectifier. (DC is used for grid bias and stuff in this application)


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 21, 2020)

Also I started pricing out and ordering stuff to see what It would cost to rebuild one of these.
So far to do one at the similar quality (Arguably better) using standard pricing (not sales or deals you found) You are only looking at $200 without case and labor.

The resistors you can order a mixed set off amazon for like $10 (get a 2 watt set that way you can install them anywhere). None of these besides the wire wounds chassis mount are in directly in the signal path to my knowledge.(For the headphones) Also throw $6 in there for the 10W 200Ohm at rear and a package of LEDs $6. off amazon.


Parts Express
Alps 100K pot $14.58
1/4 stereo $ 2 - 7< Wide variety to choose from
8 pin socket $2.81 x 2 < Priced off of though hole sockets
Power Switch $1.79
AC IEC W/ fuse 2.68 (I substituted a fuseless IEC and a breaker 1.52+ 7.75)

On Digi Key
25W 1Kohm Wire-wound vishay $4.89-$10 < non RoHC still in stock which they are selling for pretty much half price. Not a sale but dead inventory. (RH0251K000FC02)
1000UF 250V Nichicon $5.69 x 3 (These were the hardest to find at a decent price and not have a 22 week spinup/min order size) (493-2557-ND)
220 UF 250V Nichicon $2.59 X4 (493-7355-ND)
Diodes/full bridge rectifier $0.89 X 4 (Now for this I'm using four Mur860, which is a high speed switching diode which will improve the DC conversion compared to the 2W10 currently installed.

Now the fun part, Output caps where the sky can literally be the limit as far as cost.
I opted to go with four Dayton Audio 15uF capacitors and two 0.01 Dayton Audio foil bypass capacitors.

Dayton audio makes two different fims @5% and a 1%. The only difference besides price (Big difference) is the guaranteed capacitance. Which I've had very good luck with Parts express delivering matching capacitance on orders. So I would vote for the 5% especially at half the price.

Dayton 15uF film $5.79 X 4
Dayton 0.01uf foil $0.99

Now one thing to keep in mind is the larger the capacitance the greater the ESR. But it's about $6 more expensive for three 10uF capacitors from the same series.
But Daytons have shown to have very good ESR from the people I've talked too. (I'm also including a bypass so arguably not a worry?) Also I'm pretty sure you couldn't fit a 30UF film into a regular darkvoice case. So I split the difference between the capacitance/cost/size.

I've also ordered a matched set of cold war era 30uF paper in oil capacitors from russain for $20. I'm very curious to see how they sound.

Tubes since we all know there is a massive selection out there I just guessed $12 X 2.

That leaves us with the transformer which will have to be a custom order. The cost of such would be around $50 - $70.
120VA
Primary 120V
Secondary 135V 0.7A
Seconday 6.3V at 3.6A

Basically I'm coming up with around $160 using dayton capacitors a genuine Alps 100, fused IEC, and a standard 1/4 Jack.

Mine I've upgraded using a Stepped attenuator, a breaker instead of fuse, and a "fancy" 1/4 jack. about $60 price increase.

I have also not included wire but standard 16Ga-18ga solid core will do fine. I'm also building it on perf board as it will be easier for those who can't read circuit diagrams to follow along.

Further more one I get the parts in I'm going to attempt separating the grounds for the Audio path.

Rectifiers explained.
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/power-supplies/rectifiers/


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> Also I started pricing out and ordering stuff to see what It would cost to rebuild one of these.
> So far to do one at the similar quality (Arguably better) using standard pricing (not sales or deals you found) You are only looking at $200 without case and labor.
> 
> The resistors you can order a mixed set off amazon for like $10 (get a 2 watt set that way you can install them anywhere). None of these besides the wire wounds chassis mount are in directly in the signal path to my knowledge.(For the headphones) Also throw $6 in there for the 10W 200Ohm at rear and a package of LEDs $6. off amazon.
> ...



It looks like a good plan. One suggestion might be exchanging that Dayton 15uF to a one with a larger capacity


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 22, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> It looks like a good plan. One suggestion might be exchanging that Dayton 15uF to a one with a larger capacity


The larger the capacitor the greater the ESR. Running two 15UF in parallel with provide 30uf with less ESR compared to a larger single.
Also arguable it doesn't make much of a difference because I'm using a bypass. Plus if you wanted to use a 30uF film it wouldn't fit inside a dark-voice encloser.

The only reason I went with two 15uF compared to three 10uF is pricing.


EDIT: 33uf for size idea.


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> The larger the capacitor the greater the ESR. Running two 15UF in parallel with provide 30uf with less ESR compared to a larger single.
> Also arguable it doesn't make much of a difference because I'm using a bypass. Plus if you wanted to use a 30uF film it wouldn't fit inside a dark-voice encloser.
> 
> The only reason I went with two 15uF compared to three 10uF is pricing.
> ...



Sorry I didn't read your post correctly. What I intended to suggest was to increase the total capacity per chanel beyond the original 30uf


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 22, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> Sorry I didn't read your post correctly. What I intended to suggest was to increase the total capacity per chanel beyond the original 30uf



I may try that in the next build or just solder on a set of jumpers to do a A/B with it.. I noticed in that photo shared someone used audio grade Electrolytic 100uF for 300UF per channel plus a bypass.

EDIT: the photo you reposted. Also doing some searching it seems he did that for harder to drive lower impedance. I've been running 600ohm beyers which are really easy compared to grados, I'll still experiment and try out a larger capacitance.


----------



## Absoltuion

I love how the partexpress package I only ordered two days ago arrived before the one I ordered last week. I Also messed up and got stranded wire =/ 
View attachment order #1.jpg


----------



## bcowen

Absoltuion said:


> I love how the partexpress package I only ordered two days ago arrived before the one I ordered last week. I Also messed up and got stranded wire =/



As long as you're hot-rodding it, why not get some _good _wire?  

http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/neotech-wire-teflon-solid-cu-c-296_175_183_221


----------



## bcowen

She's a beauty, at least visually.   Quite heavy too. The glass seems to be thicker than its US-made brethren, and the bottle is straight (just a photo distortion making the top appear wider). Haven't listened to it yet, but it tests at well over average NOS values with both triodes almost perfectly matched.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> She's a beauty, at least visually.   Quite heavy too. The glass seems to be thicker than its US-made brethren, and the bottle is straight (just a photo distortion making the top appear wider). Haven't listened to it yet, but it tests at well over average NOS values with both triodes almost perfectly matched.


That is a beut.. what make. Is it British? Edit: I found it and should have recognized a Mullard. I never seen one with those markings, CV2984 (Military?),


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That is a beut.. what make. Is it British? Edit: I found it and should have recognized a Mullard. I never seen one with those markings, CV2984 (Military?),



Not sure on the military designation. I was a bit surprised to see the US 6080 marking versus the more traditional CV British numbering by itself. Must have been later production where they marked them for the US market as well.  But I'm just guessing....


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Not sure on the military designation. I was a bit surprised to see the US 6080 marking versus the more traditional CV British numbering by itself. Must have been later production where they marked them for the US market as well.  But I'm just guessing....


I googled cv2984 and the museum sites all say military, or maybe I'm misreading it.. almost tempted to grab one for keeps sake. The one out there is kinda low tested (in Britain). Hmm.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I googled cv2984 and the museum sites all say military, or maybe I'm misreading it.. almost tempted to grab one for keeps sake. The one out there is kinda low tested (in Britain). Hmm.



Well, I'll post some impressions soon.  Have some 6922's I need to listen to in the Vali 2 for another comparison first, and I'm still experimenting with 6SN7's for the Cetron...getting more and more likable as I go along.


----------



## Tom-s

It's a military tube (the broad arrow),  Common Valve (CV), made in Mitcham (D -> Mullard factory) in September 1961 (SJ).
These are fine sound valves.


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> It's a military tube (the broad arrow),  Common Valve (CV), made in Mitcham (D -> Mullard factory) in September 1961 (SJ).
> These are fine sound valves.



I suspected the D was Mitcham, but had no idea what the CV actually stood for or the significance of the arrow.  Thanks much for the info!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I suspected the D was Mitcham, but had no idea what the CV actually stood for or the significance of the arrow.  Thanks much for the info!


You could ship that to me when your done with it Bcowen


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You could ship that to me when your done with it Bcowen



LOL!!   Two possible issues with that: 1) if it sucks, you won't want it, and 2) if it doesn't suck, I'll want it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 25, 2020)

Found the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 250ohm for a decent price on the net, gonna give her a spin on the Darkness and see if it can tame the said treble spike it carries. Since my listening room isnt the best for audio ( two fish tanks in here  ) gonna give this inexpensive closed cans a spin.
https://www.proaudiostar.com/beyerdynamic-dt-770-pro-250.html


----------



## bcowen

Before shifting gears into 6922 land, I'll say that this combination is making some beautiful music:  Cetron 7236 along with the PSVane CV181T Mk 2.  Even after more break-in time on the Cetron, the Foton was not the best mate for it -- still lean in the bass and while better in the treble, still too hard sounding for my liking. Tried the Frankie (Sylvania 7N7), and while it sounded much better up top and added even more space between instruments, the bass was still too lean. That could be solved with the Loki, but I'm keeping it switched out of the circuit while I'm comparing as I prefer to use it as a fine-tuning tool rather than a band aid.  '52 Sylvania Bad Boy was nice in both the bass and treble, but lost a good bit of the space and imaging in the process (which is one area I'm liking muchly with the Cetron). The PSVane does no harm to the imaging, sweetens up the treble nicely, and has some more bloom and body in the bass which is just what the Cetron needs.  Still have 15+ different 6SN7's I can give a spin, but the sound I'm getting right now makes me not want to bother.  That, and I'm generally lazy.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Found the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 250ohm for a decent price on the net, gonna give her a spin on the Darkness and see if it can tame the said treble spike it carries. Since my listening room isnt the best for audio ( two fish tanks in here  ) gonna give this inexpensive closed cans a spin.



Be interested in your thoughts on those. I was just looking at some Senn HD-820's, as the only high impedance 'phones I have now are the HD-6XX's.  May have to sell a few tubes (_very_ difficult concept to grasp), so I started crunching estimate numbers on how much my wife could make if I put her on the street corner for a bit. May take a while, but that would at least save the tubes.


----------



## Absoltuion

I ended up getting a set of 990 600ohm for 120. With everyone's talk of silubus on the beyers. I didn't notice it so I wonder if it's the lower ohms that have it.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Be interested in your thoughts on those. I was just looking at some Senn HD-820's, as the only high impedance 'phones I have now are the HD-6XX's.  May have to sell a few tubes (_very_ difficult concept to grasp), so I started crunching estimate numbers on how much my wife could make if I put her on the street corner for a bit. May take a while, but that would at least save the tubes.





Absoltuion said:


> I ended up getting a set of 990 600ohm for 120. With everyone's talk of silubus on the beyers. I didn't notice it so I wonder if it's the lower ohms that have it.


LMAO.. you guys are too much, yup selling off a tube to offset the cost of it as we speak...  I hardly use my winged c tube so she's on the market. And a 990 600ohm for $120 wow... Now that's a steal... Used or new?


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> LMAO.. you guys are too much, yup selling off a tube to offset the cost of it as we speak...  I hardly use my winged c tube so she's on the market. And a 990 600ohm for $120 wow... Now that's a steal... Used or new?


New "refurbished" from beyer directly. It didn't look like they were ever touched.

Edit I lied $125


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> New "refurbished" from beyer directly. It didn't look like they were ever touched.


Love a win when I see one... Awesomeness 👍 hopefully the dt770 carries some of the sound signature as those. This is the vid that convinced me to pull the trigger...


----------



## Absoltuion

IT LIVES! Upgraded some parts on it Still waiting on parts for my build though =/.

Biggest thing on this was replacing the 1000uf 200V to 1000uf 250V which were running @ 205V. Got the pot replaced with a Genuine alps so no more chalkboard sounds. The channel imbalace has dropped to being unnoticeable at low volumes , if there is still is even one of any major concern. Upgrades which were really questionable. 

Replaced 2W10 bridge with a mur860 bridge replaced film caps with dayton audio films and foil bypass. Twisted the AC heater grid wires. Continued the ground buss to connect to the 25W resistor on right side of image. replaced the power switch I broke. (So much nicer anyways.) 

In the past I biased the driver with LEDs. I had also put 40k resistors for front LED and replaced it with a amber. - popped it the other day had to replaced with a UV I had on hand.

This thing was an absolute abortion of case design. Whoever designed the case and how components go into it must of hated the people on the mfg line.

I will also be updating my spec picture I put on here after I confirm somethings.


----------



## wwmhf

Congratulations!!! But, ... I am also disappointed .... because, because you did not tell us how it sounds ... please


----------



## Absoltuion (Apr 27, 2020)

Without an AB I'm not gonna say whether is sounds better. It doesn't sound worse.

I do know atleast the channel imbalance if still there is unnoticed by the ear now. When you move the volume knob it doesn't have a horrible noise. Also it's a nice feeling that I don't have to worry about a capacitor dying early.

The film caps/bypass I ordered what to give every chance for it to compare with the paper in oil caps I ordered for my amp build.

EDIT: I went back over my spec pictures and all voltages are correct on it. Feel free to use as a referance.


----------



## Gurggy

So my amp started doing a bubbling/crackling sound on the left channel, regardless of the volume, or if it's playing anything at all. I've tried literally everything and my conclusion is that it's an issue on the amp itself. I've looking for info on this for days now, but i am not experienced enough on the topic so i might have missed the info, or there isn't any info on this at all.

I'm willing to try do fix it myself, but i'll consider more experienced users instead willing to mod and fix this issue for me (Send me a private message).


----------



## Absoltuion

When you first powered it on are there any sparks or white spots on heater grid of tube?


----------



## Gurggy

Absoltuion said:


> When you first powered it on are there any sparks or white spots on heater grid of tube?



Nothing, they turn warm orange like always. I've also tried different tubes, cables, headphones, DAC... everything i could change i did try it.

I must say it started doing the noise after a long sesion of 6-7h or so (I usually used it for 2-3h, max)


----------



## Absoltuion

What you are describing sounds like poor contact between the pins and sockets

Unplug it from the power source turn the switch to the on position. Leave it for about 30 mins if you have a multi meter please open it up and check the 3 big capacitors in rear if not, wait another 2 hours.

If you have a insulated screwdriver that can fit into socket contacts use it to lightly pry and tighten up the contacts.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gurggy said:


> Nothing, they turn warm orange like always. I've also tried different tubes, cables, headphones, DAC... everything i could change i did try it.
> 
> I must say it started doing the noise after a long sesion of 6-7h or so (I usually used it for 2-3h, max)


6-7 hour sessions....wow, you mixing and recording with the Darkvoice? So you tried different tubes, different USB cables, different headphones, and different dacs and your still getting the cracking just in the left channel. Have you tried a different power source? Different outlet? Preferably one with nothing else plugged into it and not on a power strip, try that before signing her off.


----------



## Gurggy (Apr 27, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> 6-7 hour sessions....wow, you mixing and recording with the Darkvoice? So you tried different tubes, different USB cables, different headphones, and different dacs and your still getting the cracking just in the left channel. Have you tried a different power source? Different outlet? Preferably one with nothing else plugged into it and not on a power strip, try that before signing her off.



I was listening to music then switched to gaming. I assume it's probably a bad idea after what happened to use tube amps for that later lol.

So i just plugged it elsewhere, and while the noise seems to wither a bit, it's still there. Weird. It starts doing the sound the longer it's turned on, so it'll probably increase in volume as it's running.

About the contacts, i'll try that tomorrow as i have no light in my current place rn. Thank you! I do have a multimeter, but i am not sure where did you ask me to check?

Sorry i'm completely unfamiliar with these devices

Edit: Yeah the hum became very noticeable after a while. I'll try the switching it on without power for a while, see what happens...


----------



## Absoltuion

It still sounds like the contacts are heating up and loosening.

I mean I've been using mine too for gaming movies and music I don't really see thst harm in it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gurggy said:


> I was listening to music then switched to gaming. I assume it's probably a bad idea after what happened to use tube amps for that later lol.
> 
> So i just plugged it elsewhere, and while the noise seems to wither a bit, it's still there. Weird. It starts doing the sound the longer it's turned on, so it'll probably increase in volume as it's running.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong to use it for gaming, Doom Eternal sounds awesome on the Darkvoice


----------



## bcowen

Absoltuion said:


> IT LIVES! Upgraded some parts on it Still waiting on parts for my build though =/.
> 
> Biggest thing on this was replacing the 1000uf 200V to 1000uf 250V which were running @ 205V. Got the pot replaced with a Genuine alps so no more chalkboard sounds. The channel imbalace has dropped to being unnoticeable at low volumes , if there is still is even one of any major concern. Upgrades which were really questionable.
> 
> ...




Nice workmanship!!!


----------



## bcowen

Absoltuion said:


> It still sounds like the contacts are heating up and loosening.
> 
> I mean I've been using mine too for gaming movies and music I don't really see thst harm in it.



I agree...sounds like a contact issue.  To @Gurggy , have you ever cleaned the sockets?  I'd certainly try cleaning them first as well as re-tensioning the contacts in each socket.  If you've never done this before, it's a good thing to do even if it doesn't fix the current problem. A pipe cleaner and isopropyl alcohol work great for cleaning octal sockets. And for re-tensioning, something like the below works great. Only need one obviously, but cheap enough just to get the pack.  Just stick the end into each socket hole and gently pry the contacts a bit closer to each other. Don't get all Herculean with it, just a gentle tug will normally close the opening up enough to make better contact with the tube pin(s).  And please -- be sure the amp is off and unplugged, and as @Absoltuion recommends let it sit for a while after doing do to assure the capacitors are discharged before sticking metal things in the tube sockets. 

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-St...588029935&sprefix=dental+pick,aps,151&sr=8-13


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I agree...sounds like a contact issue.  To @Gurggy , have you ever cleaned the sockets?  I'd certainly try cleaning them first as well as re-tensioning the contacts in each socket.  If you've never done this before, it's a good thing to do even if it doesn't fix the current problem. A pipe cleaner and isopropyl alcohol work great for cleaning octal sockets. And for re-tensioning, something like the below works great. Only need one obviously, but cheap enough just to get the pack.  Just stick the end into each socket hole and gently pry the contacts a bit closer to each other. Don't get all Herculean with it, just a gentle tug will normally close the opening up enough to make better contact with the tube pin(s).  And please -- be sure the amp is off and unplugged, and as @Absoltuion recommends let it sit for a while after doing do to assure the capacitors are discharged before sticking metal things in the tube sockets.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Picks-Probes-Sculpting/dp/B000BKYRM6/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1EPNU4HSEF771&dchild=1&keywords=dental+picks+stainless+steel+professional&qid=1588029935&sprefix=dental+pick,aps,151&sr=8-13


This I'm gonna do!! I have those! Use em for for some of my mountain bike maintenance. The ones I have are dental tools, probably carbon copy same tools just different title's..


----------



## Gurggy

I've ordered some isopropyl alcohol online, as i can't get it anywhere local currently. I'll update you guys once i clean it up (i've never done it before, so that's possibly it). Thanks so much!!


----------



## Absoltuion

Gurggy said:


> I've ordered some isopropyl alcohol online, as i can't get it anywhere local currently. I'll update you guys once i clean it up (i've never done it before, so that's possibly it). Thanks so much!!



Please make sure to unplug it and flip the switch with the tubes in. It will help drain the capacitors!


----------



## doomjazz

New guy checking in, got a Brimar CV1988 (6SN7GT) and Ken Rad VT-231 (staggered plates) for preamp tubes, RCA 6AS7G and Cetron 7236 for power tubes. Playing through some Massdrop HD 6xx headphones. DV 336se unmodded. Music player is Foobar2000 using a plug-in that introduces some cross-talk so it sounds more like speakers instead of completely separate channels. The term often used is 'binaural' but I didn't want to say it before saying what it does in this context, instead of some panned 436hz nonsense that connects you to the universe. Using this plug-in has resulted in an easier listening experience and more detail from music that I get on the same setup without it. Observations below:

Ken Rad VT-231: Someone on Drop said it took them up to 120 hours for this tube to be fully burned in, so I'll update when that finally happens. I'm currently 21 hours into the Ken Rad's burn-in. It's reduced from the initial hum and now specifically in the right ear, but it's annoying if there's any quiet passages. To properly evaluate the acclaimed bass extension of this tube (the word 'slammy' was used somewhere!) I've been listening to modern metal (Monuments, Periphery, Northlane, END, etc). Absolutely, there are some moments where the bass guitar or kick drum is like liquid audio into your ear-holes. Confirming that it's not flabby at all. There's a little bit of shout that I'm getting from this combination but could be fixed with burn-in. When paired with the 7236, I found it a little too lean in the middle and it separated the music in a way that I didn't particularly like, but this could be a symptom of the binaural plug-in. The pairing could also work better with more mellow music.

Brimar CV1988: Properly burned in, very little noise, balanced, enjoyable, bass doesn't go as low but it's a hair tighter because of it. I can see myself defaulting to using this if I'm not sure what'll pair with any given album or genre. With my limited experience, this paired with the RCA is just a good well-rounded combination. I haven't spent enough time with this paired with the 7236 yet as I'm semi desperate to make the VT-231 work but that's not how these things go haha. I'll likely use this combination with some John Mayer later.

Depending how tube rolling goes and how the Ken Rad sounds once it's sufficiently burned-in, I'm likely targeting a 5998 (shocker) or a Tung-Sol 6AS7 (not sure which specific version or other details yet, haven't done enough reading). I like the separation I get from the binaural plugin and think that I should be targeting a much richer, musical sounding tube. Wideness isn't necessary, but any sort of depth is welcome.


----------



## DenverW

Hi new guy!  You’ve got some nice stuff there!  I think you’re on the right track with a higher end power tube as the next step.
Also, and the crew can correct me if I’m remembering wrong, but I believe a way to help remove the hum is to leave the 6sn7 in without a power tube to cook a bit.


----------



## doomjazz

DenverW said:


> Hi new guy!  You’ve got some nice stuff there!  I think you’re on the right track with a higher end power tube as the next step.
> Also, and the crew can correct me if I’m remembering wrong, but I believe a way to help remove the hum is to leave the 6sn7 in without a power tube to cook a bit.



Thanks Denver! I've been cooking it for a bit but I've committed to just burning it in for a full 120 hours before listening again so I can stop with the guesswork and supply more data sooner rather than later. Come Monday morning I'll try again, but for now, I think I was a little too excited to share my findings. I only recently got the HD 6xx headphones and I haven't gotten accustomed to them yet, so a few days of listening through the headphone out of my Scarlett 2i4 will be good. I'm using it as the DAC for the DV, but I'm waiting for a Motu M4 to come in the mail to upgrade.

It looks like I'm also looking for 6080 Gold Brand. Anyone know the current market rate for these or a resource I can use to help determine that?


----------



## Gurggy (Apr 30, 2020)

So i've tried using some isopropyl alcohol, and tightened the contacts a bit. When i used the pipe cleaner i felt some contacts a bit loose (maybe?) and i tightened until i felt the pipe brush felt better.

While the noise is still there, it's lower than it was before that's for sure. I didn't apply the alcohol directly but on the brush. Should i put it directly, then try putting in/out the tubes? (Without power, and discharged ofc).

Thank you a ton.


----------



## Absoltuion

I'd say if it doesn't fix it try and look for loose soldering joints.


----------



## bcowen

Gurggy said:


> So i've tried using some isopropyl alcohol, and tightened the contacts a bit. When i used the pipe cleaner i felt some contacts a bit loose (maybe?) and i tightened until i felt the pipe brush felt better.
> 
> While the noise is still there, it's lower than it was before that's for sure. I didn't apply the alcohol directly but on the brush. Should i put it directly, then try putting in/out the tubes? (Without power, and discharged ofc).
> 
> Thank you a ton.



I would certainly not pour the alcohol directly into the sockets (or amp). You're doing it correctly by dipping the pipe cleaner in the alcohol, and then rub it up and down inside the socket contacts. If the socket contacts are really dirty, you may need to do it more than once. Just repeat until the pipe cleaner comes out clean from each pin contact. Clean the pins on the tubes the same way -- pipe cleaner and alcohol.  Dirty or corroded tube pins can be as problematic as a dirty socket.  I usually clip the dirty end (1/2"?) off the pipe cleaner, re-alcohol it, use it for the next contact, clip off, etc. etc. until it gets too short to use. Reduces the number you go through even though they're cheap.

As far as re-tensioning, the pipe cleaner is not the best method for checking that. Put the tube in and make sure there's some decent resistance as you're inserting it. You'll get used to it by feel pretty quickly.


----------



## Gurggy

bcowen said:


> I would certainly not pour the alcohol directly into the sockets (or amp). You're doing it correctly by dipping the pipe cleaner in the alcohol, and then rub it up and down inside the socket contacts. If the socket contacts are really dirty, you may need to do it more than once. Just repeat until the pipe cleaner comes out clean from each pin contact. Clean the pins on the tubes the same way -- pipe cleaner and alcohol.  Dirty or corroded tube pins can be as problematic as a dirty socket.  I usually clip the dirty end (1/2"?) off the pipe cleaner, re-alcohol it, use it for the next contact, clip off, etc. etc. until it gets too short to use. Reduces the number you go through even though they're cheap.
> 
> As far as re-tensioning, the pipe cleaner is not the best method for checking that. Put the tube in and make sure there's some decent resistance as you're inserting it. You'll get used to it by feel pretty quickly.



They seem clean to me honestly, but who knows. I'll try tomorrow as it's too late here, as well as the solder joints (with that later im a bit more confortable). See what pops.


----------



## bcowen

Gurggy said:


> They seem clean to me honestly, but who knows. I'll try tomorrow as it's too late here, as well as the solder joints (with that later im a bit more confortable). See what pops.



Well if they're coming out with no visible discoloring, then they're clean. Of course I'm just assuming you're using white (or light colored) pipe cleaners...perhaps a bad assumption on my part?


----------



## Gurggy

bcowen said:


> Well if they're coming out with no visible discoloring, then they're clean. Of course I'm just assuming you're using white (or light colored) pipe cleaners...perhaps a bad assumption on my part?



no that was correct, i ordered them white so i can tell if there's stuff on


----------



## Absoltuion (May 1, 2020)

Slowly getting there. Still waiting on parts in shipment.
EDIT: image scaled


----------



## Gurggy (May 1, 2020)

I've opened the amp up, and the only conclusion i can make (to my naked unexperienced eye), is that the socket nº 3 nearest to the volume control is a bit wobbly after comparing the other sockets with a wood stick gently. Other than that, i haven't seen anything standing out. Should i use a tiny bit of hot glue to hold it in place? Maybe an electric tape instead?

Edit: Tried holding in place the pin with electrical place so it wouldn't move. No results whatsoever, bubbly noise it's still there (It gets more noticeable the longer it runs).

Sigh. I thought of replacing the output caps, could that do anything at all? Recently we had a power spike that fried my PC PSU and my laptop charger... I fear it could have harmed something inside the amp itself too.


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> Thanks Denver! I've been cooking it for a bit but I've committed to just burning it in for a full 120 hours before listening again so I can stop with the guesswork and supply more data sooner rather than later. Come Monday morning I'll try again, but for now, I think I was a little too excited to share my findings. I only recently got the HD 6xx headphones and I haven't gotten accustomed to them yet, so a few days of listening through the headphone out of my Scarlett 2i4 will be good. I'm using it as the DAC for the DV, but I'm waiting for a Motu M4 to come in the mail to upgrade.
> 
> It looks like I'm also looking for 6080 Gold Brand. Anyone know the current market rate for these or a resource I can use to help determine that?


You can find em low on ebay, be patient. Bought one for under $30 couple weeks ago.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 2, 2020)

The Beyerdynamic just arrived, and initial sound impressions, totally opposite of the Sennheiser HD6XX, almost Grado like... (not sure if I like that but...it's initial listen) yet some bass is extended. Have already eyed some thick leather DeKoni pads to tame some of the brightness (pre purchase). And curious how my warmest tubes will sound with these. These are somewhat underwhelming in build, made for kids? (stock),  comfortable though, really comfortable. And the mids are not recessed here (these are reviewed as V shaped) not the case on the Darkness, I think the Darkness pushes the mids well.

Edit: I have a few tubes that I felt were a little dark for my Sennheiser. So the ideal of the Beyers was logical for me, the Yin and Yang to the Darkness. Mullard/Philips 6080 & Sylvania VT-99 compliment the DT770 well.


----------



## Absoltuion

Well the "Pros" were the cheaper model from the DT line up. I was fairly impressed with mine. But I haven't had a set of pros to compare too.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Well the "Pros" were the cheaper model from the DT line up. I was fairly impressed with mine. But I haven't had a set of pros to compare too.


I'm growing on these quick, best $100 I've ever spent on audio gear. Took me 1000 hours to like the Sennheiser, these... probably half n hour.


----------



## wwmhf

Some people said Sennheiser HD6** has some veil over sound ...


----------



## doomjazz

wwmhf said:


> Some people said Sennheiser HD6** has some veil over sound ...



As a new owner of the 6xx I don't think they're veiled at all, the highs are tamed in a way that I actively appreciate. I do find them to be a little bit forward though. I generally set my volume just under what I normally listen at because vocals can be a little more in my ear than I'm used to.


----------



## wwmhf

I think veil or not is a relative feel. To me, the so called veil does not bother me that much, I am still keeping two pairs of HD650. But when I jump between the HD650 and another phone, I can some time tell, depending how less veil the other phone is.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 1, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> Some people said Sennheiser HD6** has some veil over sound ...


Veiled? Compared to brighter headphones, yes. And that's not a bad thing, veiled in the sense that they are a very warm headphone. And yes vocals are in your face, in the sense that with the Sennheiser, your listening to the microphone they are using, connected directly to your cans. I personally haven't heard a better headphone with the vocals than the Sennheiser. If they are too too forward, (almost my situation) deeper pads will do the trick. I grabbed the Sheepskin https://dekoniaudio.com/filter/?product_cat=hd650&product_cat=hd650 Amazon might have them at a lower price


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Veiled? Compared to brighter headphones, yes. And that's not a bad thing, veiled in the sense that they are a very warm headphone. And yes vocals are in your face, in the sense that with the Sennheiser, your listening to the microphone they are using, connected directly to your cans. I personally haven't heard a better headphone with the vocals than the Sennheiser. If they are too too forward, (almost my situation) deeper pads will so the trick. I grabbed the Sheepskin https://dekoniaudio.com/filter/?product_cat=hd650&product_cat=hd650 Amazon might have them at a lower price



Thanks for the info about the Sheepskin pads


----------



## JKDJedi

"As is" IBM 5998 coming in, made an offer of $50 and they excepted. If it's solid at arrivals, thinking I might have scored. Or is that the general pricing on those?


----------



## wwmhf (May 2, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> "As is" IBM 5998 coming in, made an offer of $50 and they excepted. If it's solid at arrivals, thinking I might have scored. Or is that the general pricing on those?



That is an amazing price for a working 5998!


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> That is a amazing price for a working 5998!


Thanks, crossing my fingers.. 🙂


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> Slowly getting there. Still waiting on parts in shipment.
> EDIT: image scaled



It seems to be a great start. Waiting for my time to start a similar project...


----------



## Absoltuion (May 4, 2020)

So idk if it was on here but someone asked me what impedance headphone my amp I am building was for. I only had the 600ohm beyers. But I'm fixing that problem and making a set of Frankensteins. Turns out when you order replacement drivers for HD600s they ship you the entire capsule. The connectors, headband mount, the whole shebang  besides the earcups and the grills.

After deferring with some people I've ordered the Drivers and the ear cups (with inner foam) and I'm going to make my own rear grills in CAD (still using metal screen)
So, I'll be adding 300 ohms to my testing.

I found a set of new drivers for $92usd and got the pads for $34usd.
1/4 Connector $2 sen connectors $7 Shipping $9







The five major components that you can order as replacement parts. - only adding this in because some people didn't know that you could basically build a set of 600s using major replacement parts.


1 Headband (complete)
2 Grills
3 Decorative trim
4 Earpad with innerfoam
5 Driver capsule


----------



## JKDJedi

Honk if you love Ken Rad


----------



## doomjazz

Quick update:

-Ken Rad mostly burned in after 100 hours, faint hum in the right headphone still remains after ~120 hours, but the stock potentiometer sucks noodles and that's the side that I get more volume in unless I turn it up past 8 o'clock or so.

-I've got caps on hand to do the fitz mod, an Audio Note 100k pot coming in the mail, and some LEDs to do the bias mod as well as replace the front blue LED.

-I scored a pair of 'unused' 6080 Gold Brand tubes on eBay, waiting for those to come in the next few weeks. They weren't tested even though the seller is capable of doing so (and I asked them if they would before shipping... gah!) I might find a local tester to get me some numbers, as I can't anticipate wanting to hold on to both of them.

-I use this when listening through foobar2000 for crossfeed: Bauer Stereophonic to Binaural DSP. After having used it for some time, listening without it really sucks the life out of the experience. 

-I complained about the 7236 being WAY too wide sounding when used with the BS2B plugin. I figured there had to be settings that it worked out, and I came close with some fiddling. Using minimal crossfeed gain but a lower frequency threshold results in a deeper soundstage. I didn't find the exact combination, but I'm hoping there are others here that are curious to explore this with me, as I suspect there's a formula that will result in some real 3D sounding music. 

Questions:

I'm going to cut the line-out when I open my DV up, but I'd prefer to find a headphone jack that sends the audio to the line-out when nothing is plugged in and then lifts the connection when headphones are plugged in. I've tried doing some searching but I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to know exactly what to ask for. Does anyone have any ideas?


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> Quick update:
> 
> -Ken Rad mostly burned in after 100 hours, faint hum in the right headphone still remains after ~120 hours, but the stock potentiometer sucks noodles and that's the side that I get more volume in unless I turn it up past 8 o'clock or so.
> 
> ...


 OCD anyone?  I know ..I know... Things to do when locked up. If I had the know how I'd probably be taking my amp apart the same. For great sounding amps they do have their short comings and probably expected at the very low entry price for a made in China amp.

( Where they made in China?) 

Crossfeed... The very thing driving me to spend some change for a RME ADI-2 FS DAC. And it's other cool tools onboard. But that wifey thing...  Better to ask for forgiveness?

 I can't really tell if the crossfeed is working or not on my Foobar, will that link you posted help with that? Or does it just explain why it works?

So I came across a YouTube vid that got me listening to some tracks that are claimed Best Recordings. Which is all subjective, understanding this, I'm enjoying this guys picks. Three I've heard already. The German Choir, and Louis Armstrong albums, never heard them.


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> OCD anyone?  I know ..I know... Things to do when locked up. If I had the know how I'd probably be taking my amp apart the same. For great sounding amps they do have their short comings and probably expected at the very low entry price for a made in China amp.
> 
> ( Where they made in China?)
> 
> ...




ADHD actually haha. Disguised itself as an addictive personality and overbearing charisma before I finally got diagnosed last year. Combined with me being an engineer and my love of tinkering, it spells death for any hobby that I pursue. Get your brains checked out, folks! Just like our audio gear, it's worth knowing your equipment!

Yes these are made in China, in Chengdu, capital of the Sichuan province. (No I didn't know that off the top of my head, figured I'd save everyone a google)

If you've installed it correctly, you should absolutely be able to hear a difference. There's a download link in the header that allows you to download a Foobar specific component. You'll have to look up how to install those to make it work. It's not hard, but it's a little more nuanced than I can type out.

I'll have to give those 'top 5 recommendations' a spin later. Quick story, I did some work for an electronics startup in Chicago a few years ago while in college. We were in the process of designing headphones (never came to fruition) and had bought a bunch of sample consumer-grade headphones that were highly rated on most websites. I spent time with the headphones, listening deeply and playing various genres of music to get my best impressions. When it came time to discuss my findings with the owner, I tried to explain to him how the different songs I was showing him were good at presenting different qualities of the headphones. He entertained this for a few minutes before submitting that he had read that The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" is supposed to be the best song ever to evaluate headphones and speakers. When I asked him to explain, he couldn't, and basically repeated himself and started the song over with another pair of headphones haha. He's a great man that had some great quirks, as all entrepreneurs do.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 4, 2020)

doomjazz said:


> ADHD actually haha. Disguised itself as an addictive personality and overbearing charisma before I finally got diagnosed last year. Combined with me being an engineer and my love of tinkering, it spells death for any hobby that I pursue. Get your brains checked out, folks! Just like our audio gear, it's worth knowing your equipment!
> 
> Yes these are made in China, in Chengdu, capital of the Sichuan province. (No I didn't know that off the top of my head, figured I'd save everyone a google)
> 
> ...


One of our users here highly recommended The Who... Live At Leeds Album.  It's a phenomenal recording, probably the best live rock album recording. thanks for the Google.


----------



## dirtyoleg

doomjazz said:


> Quick update:
> 
> -Ken Rad mostly burned in after 100 hours, faint hum in the right headphone still remains after ~120 hours, but the stock potentiometer sucks noodles and that's the side that I get more volume in unless I turn it up past 8 o'clock or so.
> 
> ...


Do you have any references or links on how to disassemble 336se? Low level imbalance drive me crazy, wanna change a pot.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Honk if you love Ken Rad



I like this picture, and, of course, the Ken-Rad tube too


----------



## wwmhf

dirtyoleg said:


> Do you have any references or links on how to disassemble 336se? Low level imbalance drive me crazy, wanna change a pot.



I am also interested in this info, please help.


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I like this picture, and, of course, the Ken-Rad tube too



I have the Sylvania 6080 with Ken Rad vt231. Fantastic combination. But I prefer the combination of RCA 6AS7G and Ken Rad for the T1. Sylvania has the sweetest mediums, but it's a little shiny tube with some recordings.


----------



## doomjazz

dirtyoleg said:


> Do you have any references or links on how to disassemble 336se? Low level imbalance drive me crazy, wanna change a pot.



Honestly, I have no idea, I'll just look for screws and things until it comes apart. I did read somewhere that you'll need to take off the front piece around the potentiometer with all the hex screws to change it out.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I have the Sylvania 6080 with Ken Rad vt231. Fantastic combination. But I prefer the combination of RCA 6AS7G and Ken Rad for the T1. Sylvania has the sweetest mediums, but it's a little shiny tube with some recordings.


That's the Beyerdynamic, some tracks are piercing, it's an inherited traight of those headphones.


----------



## Absoltuion (May 5, 2020)

For the pot removal.
Pull off knob,
remove nut holding pot in - Don't drop in front gap de solder the red,yellow, and grounds.

Be prepared to argue areal alps in - Make sure to get a real alps there are a lot of clones from china.
The real alps are larger than the one you are removing and it sets right against the tube socket.

The PCB of old pot is somewhat use able. but you have to bend the feet of the alps to fit into it and link the last two pins on PCB. - Or you could just order an ALPS PCB/make your up with perf board.

The pins to link if using ALPS pot on this PCB.


----------



## Absoltuion (May 5, 2020)

Showing size of alps Also if you have a separate volume control. Bypassing the pot all together is a much cheaper and effective way to fix the imbalance. Only reason I didn't is because I plug this directly up to my phono preamp. Also you'll need a sucker to clean out the old PCB so you can get the alps pins in easier.



Also you can use the original knob on the 100kax2 however it will stick out some if you don't cut the shaft shorter. Which I have not done but I'd recommend a dremel and slowly as not to heat up the shaft.
I'd also not recommend taking the knob on and off a lot as this is a friction fit since the Alps doesn't have splines. - A tight fit at that.




EDIT: I forgot the pin on the Alps frame is in a different spot than on the pot that came with the DV you have to take the 10 allen head screws ouf and drill a new hole.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> That's the Beyerdynamic, some tracks are piercing, it's an inherited traight of those headphones.



Agree. I found that using an equalizer can help


----------



## doomjazz

Does anyone have the schematic for this amp? I've done my fair bit of searching but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...


----------



## Absoltuion

doomjazz said:


> Does anyone have the schematic for this amp? I've done my fair bit of searching but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...



I still have yet to draw a complete one. Out of laziness. The only thing out there i found is the signal path.


----------



## wwmhf

doomjazz said:


> Does anyone have the schematic for this amp? I've done my fair bit of searching but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...



I have one, but I am sure how accurate it is. Here you are:


----------



## wwmhf

Another one, and think this one is the original:


----------



## Absoltuion (May 6, 2020)

Here's the hole that has to be drilled.
Be careful as you won't have that front face off like I do so it could get scratched and also the socket is directly behind the hole. So if you punch through too hard it could chip or snap a contact.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 6, 2020)

doomjazz said:


> Quick update:
> 
> -Ken Rad mostly burned in after 100 hours, faint hum in the right headphone still remains after ~120 hours, but the stock potentiometer sucks noodles and that's the side that I get more volume in unless I turn it up past 8 o'clock or so.
> 
> ...


Crossfeed is working (Foobar2000)..payed some/more attention to the settings this go around, and noticed it shuts down the soundstage the higher you set it, so just the lowest setting was good for me. (Ever notice on some live tracks that you can here the crossfeed without any help, just recorded that way, multiple mics)?


----------



## dirtyoleg

Absoltuion said:


> Showing size of alps Also if you have a separate volume control. Bypassing the pot all together is a much cheaper and effective way to fix the imbalance. Only reason I didn't is because I plug this directly up to my phono preamp. Also you'll need a sucker to clean out the old PCB so you can get the alps pins in easier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you have the part number of the Alps pot you use?


----------



## Absoltuion

dirtyoleg said:


> Do you have the part number of the Alps pot you use?



Model: 100KAX2|Part # 023-206

https://www.parts-express.com/alps-...taper-stereo-potentiometer-6mm-shaft--023-206


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> Crossfeed is working (Foobar2000)..payed some/more attention to the settings this go around, and noticed it shuts down the soundstage the higher you set it, so just the lowest setting was good for me. (Ever notice on some live tracks that you can here the crossfeed without any help, just recorded that way, multiple mics)?



That's curious, the settings for bs2b on my computer show themselves as a crossfeed level and frequency threshold.





As far as live tracks not needing crossfeed help, that makes sense. If we assume a live recording is a stereo pair of mics, the mics are going to record all instruments and also inherently capture time delay from the differences in distance to each mic. I would guess that using a crossfeed plugin like bs2b with no gain but the frequency threshold set to the approximate width of your ears (1 foot = about 1kHz, so ~2000 kHz, ref: Acoustic Head Shadow, Sound Localization) would result in an especially 'live' experience.


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> That's curious, the settings for bs2b on my computer show themselves as a crossfeed level and frequency threshold.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as live tracks not needing crossfeed help, that makes sense. If we assume a live recording is a stereo pair of mics, the mics are going to record all instruments and also inherently capture time delay from the differences in distance to each mic. I would guess that using a crossfeed plugin like bs2b with no gain but the frequency threshold set to the approximate width of your ears (1 foot = about 1kHz, so ~2000 kHz, ref: Acoustic Head Shadow, Sound Localization) would result in an especially 'live' experience.


 Found it! Thanks, I'll give it a spin.


----------



## Absoltuion

Guy's should I make my own thread and post the spec in it and like the stuff how to do the pot swap an stuff in hopes it becomes a sticky? That way newcomers can get directly to info without surfing the tube-rolling posts?


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Guy's should I make my own thread and post the spec in it and like the stuff how to do the pot swap an stuff in hopes it becomes a sticky? That way newcomers can get directly to info without surfing the tube-rolling posts?


That's a great idea, post that link to the thread here please. Not sure if the OP is following this thread but a link to that should be stickied to the OP as well.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 9, 2020)

@Absoltuion Have you heard of this mod? I saw a listing where the output RCA plugs were modded on Ebay (a few years back) and that didn't make sense to me till I stumbled on this thread this morning,

" believe the 6sn7 is the same as a 6080 the same as the output tube on a Bottlehead Crack. I have a Crack and think a Tung Sol 5998 is the best I've tried so far. It will be expensive no doubt be it is very good. I have a Head-Fi friend in Nashville area that I lent my Crack to and he also bought a DarkVoice 336 as he had my amp and said he understood why they called it the DarkVoice as I believe he found it to warm but he told me that he modded it by cutting the pre amp outputs and that opened it up to almost sound like the Crack. I have seen him on here in a while but I can try to get a hold of him if you wish? He might have some better options for you. No promises as like I said haven't seen him on here in a while".

The preamp outputs are the RCA outs, correct?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336-tube-rolling.843245/


----------



## Absoltuion (May 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> @Absoltuion Have you heard of this mod? I saw a listing where the output RCA plugs were modded on Ebay (a few years back) and that didn't make sense to me till I stumbled on this thread this morning,
> 
> " believe the 6sn7 is the same as a 6080 the same as the output tube on a Bottlehead Crack. I have a Crack and think a Tung Sol 5998 is the best I've tried so far. It will be expensive no doubt be it is very good. I have a Head-Fi friend in Nashville area that I lent my Crack to and he also bought a DarkVoice 336 as he had my amp and said he understood why they called it the DarkVoice as I believe he found it to warm but he told me that he modded it by cutting the pre amp outputs and that opened it up to almost sound like the Crack. I have seen him on here in a while but I can try to get a hold of him if you wish? He might have some better options for you. No promises as like I said haven't seen him on here in a while".
> 
> ...



Why yes I did disconnect the line outs. However I don't think I really found much in it in ways of improvement. But it's also because I try to be as objective as possible. (I've even hot swapped tubes using oven mitts) recently I purchased a dac to improve source quality. So maybe I'll see a difference swapping then.

Sorry got off topic. This is an easy mod and as I don't use this as a preamp in my system I went ahead and desoldered the lines. You can try it at your own accord by unscrewing back of unit and desoldering the lines going to output.

The whole point of this mod is to avoid parasitic load. But my amp was also really weird from the start. Like I could turn my pot all the way up without any distortion literally way beyond listening levels.

But this could also be because of my headphones being 600ohm - only a guess.

Edit 1: lol, so i was gonna revisit this until I remembered I removed the caps for the line out (those .47uf caps) to fit new headphone caps =/. But I also don't see why I couldn't wire them up in my custom build. Though I wouldn't consider that a fair comparison.

Edit 2: I just thought of something. Maybe someone could clip and put a 6 pin switch in the line switching it off and off to see if there is any difference switching it on and off.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Why yes I did disconnect the line outs. However I don't think I really found much in it in ways of improvement. But it's also because I try to be as objective as possible. (I've even hot swapped tubes using oven mitts) recently I purchased a dac to improve source quality. So maybe I'll see a difference swapping then.
> 
> Sorry got off topic. This is an easy mod and as I don't use this as a preamp in my system I went ahead and desoldered the lines. You can try it at your own accord by unscrewing back of unit and desoldering the lines going to output.
> 
> ...


Dac does play a roll in the sound. Headphones the same. Some are sensitive to tube rolls, others only the bass reference is changed.. weird. Tempted to try that desoldering of the RCA output wires, seems like I could just solder back the wires if nothing changes. The wires, do you just tuck them out of the way? Should I be concerned about them contacting something else inside the amp?


----------



## Absoltuion (May 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Dac does play a roll in the sound. Headphones the same. Some are sensitive to tube rolls, others only the bass reference is changed.. weird. Tempted to try that desoldering of the RCA output wires, seems like I could just solder back the wires if nothing changes. The wires, do you just tuck them out of the way? Should I be concerned about them contacting something else inside the amp?



Yeah I put heat shrink on mine before I had got the rest of way into amp and ripped it out all together. But electric tape would work just fine.

There is however one thing I do know about the 5998 tube. It has a lower output impedance compared to 6080s later when I get back home I have to old spec sheets saved on my laptop. Which could help with lower impedance headphones. - haven't tried myself.

Edit: Although I only skimmed, it looks like this old thread on here may venture into it.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/otl-amp-and-headphone-impedance-matching-question.702109/

Edited photo to show wires*


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi - You may have heard Tung-Sol 5998 with Ken Rad vt231 with Beyerdynamic. How does this set do with this phone? Have you had the opportunity to listen to RCA 6as7g together with Ken Rad at Beyerdynamic? If so, how does it compare to the TS5998 and Ken Rad set? Sorry for the amount of questions, but as I love the RCA and Ken Rad set on T1, I'm curious to see how much benefit I would get from upgrading RCA to Ts5998 on my system.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Yeah I put heat shrink on mine before I had got the rest of way into amp and ripped it out all together. But electric tape would work just fine.
> 
> There is however one thing I do know about the 5998 tube. It has a lower output impedance compared to 6080s later when I get back home I have to old spec sheets saved on my laptop. Which could help with lower impedance headphones. - haven't tried myself.
> 
> ...


Oh boy... Feeling a little overwhelmed.. 
What have I done!


----------



## Absoltuion

JKDJedi said:


> Oh boy... Feeling a little overwhelmed..
> What have I done!


LOL yeah it's alittle daunting at first. Do yourself a favor and undo the Allen head screws on back. I think mine was later model as I didn't have hot glue everywhere.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> JKDJedi - You may have heard Tung-Sol 5998 with Ken Rad vt231 with Beyerdynamic. How does this set do with this phone? Have you had the opportunity to listen to RCA 6as7g together with Ken Rad at Beyerdynamic? If so, how does it compare to the TS5998 and Ken Rad set? Sorry for the amount of questions, but as I love the RCA and Ken Rad set on T1, I'm curious to see how much benefit I would get from upgrading RCA to Ts5998 on my system.


I personally prefer the 6080 (Mullards & Gold Brand Sylvania) with the Ken Rad the 5998 is a touch more dynamic across the board slightly wider soundstage but with the Beyerdynamic the warmth of the 6080 makes more of a pleasing headphone. Don't have an RCA on me.


----------



## SHIMACM

Thank you for your impressions.  I see that many who love the TS5998 own the Hd650 / 6xx.  In my system, the T1 needs heat.  The RCA 6AS7G is a hot tube, which together with Ken Rad gives the heat that T1 needs.  My 6080 mullard has not arrived yet.  When I arrive, I'll post my impressions here.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> LOL yeah it's alittle daunting at first. Do yourself a favor and undo the Allen head screws on back. I think mine was later model as I didn't have hot glue everywhere.


The hot glue kind of messed up my mojo,  if anything I soldered the power connections (the two up top were very loose). Maybe after a six pack or two I'll be brave enough to melt that hot glue off.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> I personally prefer the 6080 (Mullards & Gold Brand Sylvania) with the Ken Rad the 5998 is a touch more dynamic across the board slightly wider soundstage but with the Beyerdynamic the warmth of the 6080 makes more of a pleasing headphone. Don't have an RCA on me.



I did the same thing last week, swapping out the 5998 with a RCA JAN 6080G which produces a sound I like for now.


----------



## Absoltuion

JKDJedi said:


> The hot glue kind of messed up my mojo,  if anything I soldered the power connections (the two up top were very loose). Maybe after a six pack or two I'll be brave enough to melt that hot glue off.


You should be able to take a set of needle noses and it will pull off.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> You should be able to take a set of needle noses and it will pull off.


Seems like there's one wire feeding into both input/ouputs or are they just ganged together? And if/and/when I disconnect the input wires, leave the ground intact? Thanks for your input here.


----------



## Absoltuion

JKDJedi said:


> Seems like there's one wire feeding into both input/ouputs or are they just ganged together? And if/and/when I disconnect the input wires, leave the ground intact? Thanks for your input here.



One for each channel then one for ground.
 I'm sorry all my photos are on my laptop


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I did the same thing last week, swapping out the 5998 with a RCA JAN 6080G which produces a sound I like for now.



Then, the RCA Jan 6as7g with Ken Rad and T1 produces a full sound, without losing the detail. The sound stage has the width that I consider ideal, and more depth than that obtained with the sylvania 6080 for example. The sound is also very airy and the separation of instruments is perfect. The sound is very beautiful and has a soul, if I may say so. I wonder if I can really do much better, or just small increments.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> One for each channel then one for ground.
> I'm sorry all my photos are on my laptop


COPY...DOn't touch the ground!


----------



## Absoltuion

JKDJedi said:


> COPY...DOn't touch the ground!


I mean you can disconnect it too. Won't hurt anything each one of those wire sleeves have 3 conductors. Each one having their own left right ground. 

So you could disconnect all the wires for the rca output. Wouldn't hurt anything.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Then, the RCA Jan 6as7g with Ken Rad and T1 produces a full sound, without losing the detail. The sound stage has the width that I consider ideal, and more depth than that obtained with the sylvania 6080 for example. The sound is also very airy and the separation of instruments is perfect. The sound is very beautiful and has a soul, if I may say so. I wonder if I can really do much better, or just small increments.


 RCA to 5998.. tough one, wish I had the RCA (sold mine last year). And the Slyvania 6080 isn't the best representative of the 6080's out there (Not the same as the Gold Brand Sylvania). Lot of users praise the Tung Sol 6080 as a really good buy. This thread we're on and here---> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3 
 And there's this thing about the date of said RCA that makes a difference, what's the date on your RCA? 

I will say this, the 5998 with a Sylvania CF8G is an eargasm to say the least.


----------



## dirtyoleg

Where do you guys buy tubes, I do not trust eBay


----------



## wwmhf

A couple online stores I used before: 

http://vacuumtubes.com/
https://www.vacuumtubes.net


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I did the same thing last week, swapping out the 5998 with a RCA JAN 6080G which produces a sound I like for now.
> [/CITAR]
> 
> what is your headset?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> RCA to 5998.. tough one, wish I had the RCA (sold mine last year). And the Slyvania 6080 isn't the best representative of the 6080's out there (Not the same as the Gold Brand Sylvania). Lot of users praise the Tung Sol 6080 as a really good buy. This thread we're on and here---> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
> And there's this thing about the date of said RCA that makes a difference, what's the date on your RCA?
> 
> I will say this, the 5998 with a Sylvania CF8G is an eargasm to say the least.




Let me see if I got it. Won't there be a significant difference from RCA to 5998? That's it, right? I own three RCA's JAN. The one I'm using is from 1970. I won two others at an auction on ebay that I haven't received yet. One is from 1961 and the other is from 1967.


----------



## wwmhf

For vocal, I like 336SE + Senn 650. For must (chamber music, jazz, ...), 336SE + Beyer T1 sounds crispier.


----------



## wwmhf

I do not like 336SE + Beyer T1 for vocal at all. This is one motivation for me to mod 336SE and hope it can improve this combination for vocal.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "wwmhf, postagem: 15605199, membro: 9071"]
Eu não gosto de 336SE + Beyer T1 para vocal. Essa é uma motivação para modificar o 336SE e espero que possa melhorar essa combinação para vocal.
[/ CITAR]

I was curious to try the Hd650. I already had the Hd600, and although I like it for vocals, I still prefer the T1.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi - Believe me, I already owned a Tung-sol 6080 and sold it for $ 15. What regret!


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> For vocal, I like 336SE + Senn 650. For must (chamber music, jazz, ...), 336SE + Beyer T1 sounds crispier.



Do You Own Ken Rad Vt231?


----------



## wwmhf

The vocal with S sound is a kind of annoying on 336SE + T1, while 336SE + HD650 is much better for any word starting with S


----------



## wwmhf

SHIMACM said:


> Do You Own Ken Rad Vt231?



I do not have this tube. Recently, I mainly use 6F8G instead of 6SN7 in my 336SE


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I do not have this tube. Recently, I mainly use 6F8G instead of 6SN7 in my 336SE



I don't have much experience with this type of tube. What is the best with T1?


----------



## wwmhf

I really do not have a definite answer to this question. But I like 338SE+HD650 for a smoother vocal sound


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> JKDJedi - Believe me, I already owned a Tung-sol 6080 and sold it for $ 15. What regret!


L M F A O ..thanks, I was searching for one and couldn't find any, I'll take your word for it. Off the want list.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Let me see if I got it. Won't there be a significant difference from RCA to 5998? That's it, right? I own three RCA's JAN. The one I'm using is from 1970. I won two others at an auction on ebay that I haven't received yet. One is from 1961 and the other is from 1967.





SHIMACM said:


> I don't have much experience with this type of tube. What is the best with T1?


A good one to try is @bcowen  FRANKENTUBE You'd need an adapter but worth the find. Your looking for a tall 7N7 tube. Don't get the short ones. Tall. Bcowen titled this tube the FRANKENTUBE for it's flat top. So don't Google Frankentube.. although I'm curious what you'd get with that search. And they are not expensive. The adapter might cost you more. Philips, Sylvania, and or the original Landsdale tube will do. A highly dynamic tube. Something like this--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-SYLVAN...996528?hash=item23d4ea8c70:g:p8IAAOSwtkhek4zc 

and this---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-7N7-7F...816650?hash=item41fd04ae4a:g:vHIAAOSwQrJbUX-q


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> A good one to try is @bcowen  FRANKENTUBE You'd need an adapter but worth the find. Your looking for a tall 7N7 tube. Don't get the short ones. Tall. Bcowen titled this tube the FRANKENTUBE for it's flat top. So don't Google Frankentube.. although I'm curious what you'd get with that search. And they are not expensive. The adapter might cost you more. Philips, Sylvania, and or the original Landsdale tube will do. A highly dynamic tube. Something like this--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-SYLVAN...996528?hash=item23d4ea8c70:g:p8IAAOSwtkhek4zc
> 
> and this---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-7N7-7F...816650?hash=item41fd04ae4a:g:vHIAAOSwQrJbUX-q




Thanks for the tip.  I'll look.  One tube I'm interested in is the tung-sun / chatham 6as7g.  I like holographic tubes.  Perhaps it is more interesting than the 5998.


----------



## bcowen (May 9, 2020)

At the risk of sounding overly nitpicky, the one linked isn't a true Frankie. The bottom mica has to be a racetrack shape (full, unbroken oval).  May sound ludicrous, but there *is* an audible difference to my ears (I went through a lot of these trying to figure out what was what).  I think the mica shape is possibly indicative of the year it was manufactured.

Real Frankie:





Franken-wannabe:




And you're totally correct that they're not expensive. Got these just this week. Unfortunately the "Tested Perfect" was only half right. One of them *does* test perfect, but the other is nearly dead. Messaged the seller, and she is sending another _pair_ for free even though I was clear that only one of the two was bad. Hopefully at least one in the new shipment truly "Tested Perfect."  





I can't see the bottom mica in the link below so no guarantees, but I've yet to see a tall bottle, flat top Philco-branded 7N7 that _wasn't_ a Frankie. For the price, might well be worth the gamble.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RA...743021?hash=item4b782cb4ed:g:VgMAAOSw2fheme6y


----------



## JKDJedi (May 9, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Let me see if I got it. Won't there be a significant difference from RCA to 5998? That's it, right? I own three RCA's JAN. The one I'm using is from 1970. I won two others at an auction on ebay that I haven't received yet. One is from 1961 and the other is from 1967.


You got me curious on the RCA again. Found an interesting tube, Cunningham 6AS7G and it looks carbon copy to the RCA. Did a quick research on the company and yup, they specialized in counterfeiting 6AS7G tubes  They survived a few lawsuits and ended up partnering with (or purchased by)....wait for it...yes...RCA!  This happened around the early 1930's. The tube I'm thinking of getting is a 1949 NOS Cunningham 6AS7G (essentially an RCA) hope they except my offer.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is this tung-sol good?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> You got me curious on the RCA again. Found an interesting tube, Cunningham 6AS7G and it looks carbon copy to the RCA. Did a quick research on the company and yup, they specialized in counterfeiting 6AS7G tubes  They survived a few lawsuits and ended up partnering with (or purchased by)....wait for it...yes...RCA!  This happened around the early 1930's. The tube I'm thinking of getting is a 1949 NOS Cunningham 6AS7G (essentially an RCA) hope they except my offer.



I even heard that the 1940s are the best. But they are so hard to find.


----------



## wwmhf

SHIMACM said:


> Is this tung-sol good?



I read somewhere online saying that the taller tung-sols are better


----------



## bcowen (May 10, 2020)

Finally got a chance to spin up the Mullard 6080 yesterday.  On initial listen (and compared to the Cetron 7236), a friendlier treble and that famous Mullard midrange resplendent with harmonic detail and texture and tubular goodness. Big smiles. But on the flip side, it also has the famous Mullard mud in the bass. Nice and full in that area, but lacking definition, dynamics, punch, etc. As best I can tell this tube was unused, so I let it play for a few hours and on second listen things were improving in the bass -- noticeable improvement in definition to be sure. Still lacking dynamically at this point. I'm letting it play and we'll see what develops over the next 20 or so hours. As well, it took a number of 6SN7 swaps to find the right combo for the Cetron, and I haven't given the same amount of lovin' to the Mullard at this point. There *is* promise, so more to come...

Edit: also snagged a NOS Tung Sol 5998 yesterday for a decent price so looking forward to that when it gets here.


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I read somewhere online saying that the taller tung-sols are better



Is it worth $ 20?


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Finally got a chance to spin up the Mullard 6080 yesterday.  On initial listen (and compared to the Cetron 7236), a friendlier treble and that famous Mullard midrange resplendent with harmonic detail and texture and tubular goodness. Big smiles. But on the flip side, it also has the famous Mullard mud in the bass. Nice and full in that area, but lacking definition, dynamics, punch, etc. As best I can tell this tube was unused, so I let it play for a few hours and on second listen things were improving in the bass -- noticeable improvement in definition to be sure. Still lacking dynamically at this point. I'm letting it play and we'll see what develops over the next 20 or so hours. As well, it took a number of 6SN7 swaps to find the right combo for the Cetron, and I haven't given the same amount of lovin' to the Mullard at this point. There *is* promise, so more to come...
> 
> Edit: also snagged a NOS Tung Sol 5998 yesterday for a decent price so looking forward to that when it gets here.



Anxious for impressions. I want to see if, in fact, it is worth buying the TS5998. The cruelest doubt I have.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Anxious for impressions. I want to see if, in fact, it is worth buying the TS5998. The cruelest doubt I have.



Yeah, I'm anxious myself. The TS seems to be the majority standard by which all others are judged (well, maybe the WE 421A too). 

Here's a funny one (or stupid one, depending on perspective): there was a gorgeous truly NOS-looking WE 421A for auction on Ebay ending this morning at 10:00 EST. Had it in my watch list, and had even set aside some time to watch it as it got down to the last minute. Checked at 8:00 and it was sitting at just over $100. So what did I do? I sat there looking through Ebay for new 421A listings until......exactly 10:01 and missed it!!!   The thing went for $152.  Damnit!  Certainly worth that, and I can certainly do some brilliantly stupid things on occasion.


----------



## Paladin79

Listening to a TS 5998 with 7A4's right now.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Anxious for impressions. I want to see if, in fact, it is worth buying the TS5998. The cruelest doubt I have.


It's highly priced for a reason, not a GEC or Western Electric but very close. You can find a steal if your patient. Ive been looking for two years and found a bargain last week on my purchase.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I'm anxious myself. The TS seems to be the majority standard by which all others are judged (well, maybe the WE 421A too).
> 
> Here's a funny one (or stupid one, depending on perspective): there was a gorgeous truly NOS-looking WE 421A for auction on Ebay ending this morning at 10:00 EST. Had it in my watch list, and had even set aside some time to watch it as it got down to the last minute. Checked at 8:00 and it was sitting at just over $100. So what did I do? I sat there looking through Ebay for new 421A listings until......exactly 10:01 and missed it!!!   The thing went for $152.  Damnit!  Certainly worth that, and I can certainly do some brilliantly stupid things on occasion.


That would have been a huge steal..


----------



## johanchandy

For the RCA 6AS7G is there anything in particular to be looking for when buying? Jan? Plate color?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That would have been a huge steal..



Yes, and one of those smack yourself on the forehead and scream "Duh" moments for me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yes, and one of those smack yourself on the forehead and scream "Duh" moments for me.


I was following that just to see where it went .. didn't think it was gonna bid that low!


----------



## JKDJedi (May 10, 2020)

johanchandy said:


> For the RCA 6AS7G is there anything in particular to be looking for when buying? Jan? Plate color?


I'm doing my research in that right now and will continue tomorrow. The 6AS7g thread has a gang of info there, and this is what I've grabbed so far...

     "I definitely say that the RCAs 6AS7Gs are some of the greatest "classic" tubes, with the sweetest sound and an enormous soundstage, ok., maybe not as defined as others, but if you are entering into this hobby, you simply must hear these great tubes. Try to get NOS ones, fifties production are excellent, and still available..."

copy and pasted from that thread.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/


----------



## johanchandy

JKDJedi said:


> I'm doing my research in that right now and will continue tomorrow. The 6AS7g thread has a gang of info there, and this is what I've grabbed so far...
> 
> "I definitely say that the RCAs 6AS7Gs are some of the greatest "classic" tubes, with the sweetest sound and an enormous soundstage, ok., maybe not as defined as others, but if you are entering into this hobby, you simply must hear these great tubes. Try to get NOS ones, fifties production are excellent, and still available..."
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thanks for the link to that thread and the info!


----------



## wwmhf (May 10, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Listening to a TS 5998 with 7A4's right now.



Thanks for sharing this. Are those 7A4s for a 6SN7?


----------



## Paladin79

wwmhf said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Are those 7A4s for a 6SN7?


Yep, they predated 6sn7’s, single triode tubes. 6sn7 are dual triode with shielding for crosstalk. Channel separation is a bit better IMHO.


----------



## wwmhf

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, they predated 6sn7’s, single triode tubes. 6sn7 are dual triode with shielding for crosstalk. Channel separation is a bit better IMHO.



Thanks for the confirmation and mode details. Your info taught me another way to substitute the 6SN7


----------



## Paladin79

wwmhf said:


> Thanks for the confirmation and mode details. Your info taught me another way to substitute the 6SN7



This is the loktal version of the 6J5, check those out some time they are octal like the 6sn7. My favorite are three hole black plate that remind me of Sylvania bad boys in construction.


----------



## wwmhf

Paladin79 said:


> This is the loktal version of the 6J5, check those out some time they are octal like the 6sn7. My favorite are three hole black plate that remind me of Sylvania bad boys in construction.



This structure information is also interesting. 

So this version of 6SN7 should sound much better because it consists of six holes beating those Sylvania bad boys )


----------



## Paladin79

wwmhf said:


> This structure information is also interesting.
> 
> So this version of 6SN7 should sound much better because it consists of six holes beating those Sylvania bad boys )


Lol I will have to dig some out tomorrow and see if that holds true. Comparisons I will be doing with a local audio group is for 6SN7 equivalents and some of these are included.


----------



## bcowen (May 10, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> This structure information is also interesting.
> 
> So this version of 6SN7 should sound much better because it consists of six holes beating those Sylvania bad boys )



Another interesting tidbit if you go the 6J5 (octal base) route. The round plate Tung Sol 6SN7's are commanding huge dollars these days, typically $250+ per tube. I've never had or heard one, but many consider them at the top of the heap.  A Tung Sol round plate 6J5?  Hmmmmm...


----------



## wwmhf

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I will have to dig some out tomorrow and see if that holds true. Comparisons I will be doing with a local audio group is for 6SN7 equivalents and some of these are included.



Looking forward to assessments from you and your local audio group.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 10, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> Looking forward to assessments from you and your local audio group.


Ok don’t tell anyone about those and we will corner the market lol. 

Oops sorry I was watching TV and answering Bill.  I will need to look through my tube books tomorrow and see if such a tube actually exists. I own many Sylvania books and that is where I found the 7A4 single triode tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

wwmhf said:


> Looking forward to assessments from you and your local audio group.


It will be a while before we meet up to do a blind comparison, I did build four identical amps for that purpose and we will be using HD 800 Senns with my headphone amps.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> It's highly priced for a reason, not a GEC or Western Electric but very close. You can find a steal if your patient. Ive been looking for two years and found a bargain last week on my purchase.



Lol I will have to buy them then. The way is to wait. How much did you pay for yours? If you don't mind answering.


----------



## wwmhf

Paladin79 said:


> It will be a while before we meet up to do a blind comparison, I did build four identical amps for that purpose and we will be using HD 800 Senns with my headphone amps.



It sounds like a fair setup for a comparison.


----------



## Paladin79

wwmhf said:


> It sounds like a fair setup for a comparison.


Trying to make it so. There is a large metal cover that will conceal the tubes and allow for single triode pairs and globe shaped tubes. Some of the group own GEC, Marconi’s etc. so some exceed $1,000 per.
Lots of engineers and scientists in the group so it is a quality setup and test music is provided for and recorded for the challenge by an illustrious audio engineer.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 11, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Lol I will have to buy them then. The way is to wait. How much did you pay for yours? If you don't mind answering.


$50. I saw it listed on auction, and had a hunch about making an offer. You'd be surprised what sellers will let go with a low offer, made the offer and they excepted. It was on auction as untested, so it was a gamble on my part that paid off. Tube is near mint condition. Got lucky.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> $50. I saw it listed on auction, and had a hunch about making an offer. You'd be surprised what sellers will let go with a low offer, made the offer and they excepted. It was on auction as untested, so it was a gamble on my part that paid off. Tube is near mint condition. Got lucky.


What a beautiful purchase.  I'm happy for you.  I'll be patient to get one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Trying to make it so. There is a large metal cover that will conceal the tubes and allow for single triode pairs and globe shaped tubes. Some of the group own GEC, Marconi’s etc. so some exceed $1,000 per.
> Lots of engineers and scientists in the group so it is a quality setup and test music is provided for and recorded for the challenge by an illustrious audio engineer.



I can send you my Marilyn Manson playlist if the group wants to listen to something besides test music.  Just let me know.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I can send you my Marilyn Manson playlist if the group wants to listen to something besides test music.  Just let me know.


Now there’s a bad idea!


----------



## doomjazz

Got the Audio Note pot in the mail today, was super excited to tear into the amp and get the mods done. Now it's a little after 1:00am and I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong.

Mods attempted:
LED biasing mod
Fitz mod
Desolder the line-out
Replace volume pot

The Audio Note 100k isn't a drop-in fit like an Alps, both with the pins, and the diameter on the shaft is just a hair bigger than the opening on the faceplate. That will be getting the Dremel tomorrow. I wasn't entirely sure about the correct wiring with this pot so I decided to solder some leads from the pot to the circuit board to check my work before attempting to button everything up tomorrow. This included soldering a lead from the headphone ground to the circuit board and from the ground that attaches to the top right corner of the circuit board to the vertical wire. The LEDs and Fitz mod caps are just drop-ins. Provided everything has a good solder joint, this should be plug and play. Instead, I'm getting loads of hum and it sounds like there's a massive high-pass filter on the amp. I'm regretting not having bought a multimeter before having started this. Does this sound familiar to anyone?


----------



## dirtyoleg

doomjazz said:


> Got the Audio Note pot in the mail today, was super excited to tear into the amp and get the mods done. Now it's a little after 1:00am and I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong.
> 
> Mods attempted:
> LED biasing mod
> ...


maybe because LED biasing mod and Fitz mod are not compatible with each other?


----------



## doomjazz

dirtyoleg said:


> maybe because LED biasing mod and Fitz mod are not compatible with each other?



Is this a fact or a guess? Either way, I'll be spending a lot of time with it tonight going mod by mod. This may be a frustrating scenario having to put it back to stock and listening as I make changes.


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> Is this a fact or a guess? Either way, I'll be spending a lot of time with it tonight going mod by mod. This may be a frustrating scenario having to put it back to stock and listening as I make changes.


Might have a nice paper weight there


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> Might have a nice paper weight there



Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby!

I may have been naive to think that I could get away with tearing this thing open and just soldering some new stuff in haha. I'm sure I'll fix it, but I'm more than content to know that if this became irreparable, it's a learning expense. Also a reason to look into potential upgrades...


----------



## JKDJedi (May 12, 2020)




----------



## doomjazz

Massive points to anyone who can help me make sense of this. I did test with the stock pot and the issues remained.


----------



## dirtyoleg

doomjazz said:


> Is this a fact or a guess? Either way, I'll be spending a lot of time with it tonight going mod by mod. This may be a frustrating scenario having to put it back to stock and listening as I make changes.


The reason using LED biasing is to replace the cathode resistor and its bypass capacitor to achieve steady biasing voltage. If you put a capacitor in parallel with a LED, the voltage across the LED will not be steady since capacitor is compensating the voltage drop. But it is my guess, I maybe wrong, better just desolder the capacitor to see if noise go away.


----------



## doomjazz

dirtyoleg said:


> The reason using LED biasing is to replace the cathode resistor and its bypass capacitor to achieve steady biasing voltage. If you put a capacitor in parallel with a LED, the voltage across the LED will not be steady since capacitor is compensating the voltage drop. But it is my guess, I maybe wrong, better just desolder the capacitor to see if noise go away.



I'll try it out. I also had the epiphany that there's a chance the output wires were touching in some combination when I put tape over the ends. There's a lot to test after work, but I'm feeling more confident.


----------



## dirtyoleg

doomjazz said:


> I'll try it out. I also had the epiphany that there's a chance the output wires were touching in some combination when I put tape over the ends. There's a lot to test after work, but I'm feeling more confident.


I will suggest to desolder the capacitor first. I am a newbie in audio DIY world, so I maybe wrong. But as far as I remember, the most common way to achieve cathode biasing is by unbypassed resistor, or resistor + bypass capacitor, or LED. Have not heard about LED + bypass cap combination yet.


----------



## Paladin79

doomjazz said:


> I'll try it out. I also had the epiphany that there's a chance the output wires were touching in some combination when I put tape over the ends. There's a lot to test after work, but I'm feeling more confident.


Why exactly did you disconnect the output wires? I have only repaired a couple of those amps but I am curious what you have going on there.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Why exactly did you disconnect the output wires? I have only repaired a couple of those amps but I am curious what you have going on there.


Believe it's a mod some users do to brighten up the Darkvoice to sound more like the CRack amp. The Darkvoice is well ...dark sounding. Not sure how or what happens when you snip the wires, but others may shime in with details


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Believe it's a mod some users do to brighten up the Darkvoice to sound more like the CRack amp. The Darkvoice is well ...dark sounding. Not sure how or what happens when you snip the wires, but others may shime in with details


Interesting. And I have built myself some Crack amps.




But I added line out to a couple builds.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Interesting. And I have built myself some Crack amps.
> 
> 
> But I added line out to a couple builds.


That a 12au7 preamp?


----------



## dirtyoleg

Paladin79 said:


> Why exactly did you disconnect the output wires? I have only repaired a couple of those amps but I am curious what you have going on there.


https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/


----------



## JKDJedi

dirtyoleg said:


> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/


Copy and pasted from. Link.. and thank you!

Both use the same design, but the Crack uses a higher value cap and a lower value resistor, but achieves the same result. But somehow the extra capacitance and resistance to ground on the DV moves up the HPF to 1.2Hz, but also somehow contributies to somehow loading the output. So for mine I disconnected the Line Out all togehter, but one could simply remove the connector to ground essentially taking that part of the circuit out of the equation.

This change simply lifted the "veil" on this amp. I compared it to a Crack initially and the DV was much darker. After removing the Line Out loading issue, they were close to the same given the same tubes. The Crack might have been slightly better given better components and design overall (better transformer, correct heater voltage, and less resistance on headphone out, even if it did have an electrolytic cap on the output).


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> That a 12au7 preamp?


Yes but I often used other tubes like 6sn7's and their equivalents. I was not getting the power out I wanted so I designed my own amp using the 6sn7 and 6080. I get close to double the power of a Crack and my line out stage is not an issue. I am using a serious power transformer that is pretty pricey delivered from Russia.


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> Copy and pasted from. Link.. and thank you!
> 
> Both use the same design, but the Crack uses a higher value cap and a lower value resistor, but achieves the same result. But somehow the extra capacitance and resistance to ground on the DV moves up the HPF to 1.2Hz, but also somehow contributies to somehow loading the output. So for mine I disconnected the Line Out all togehter, but one could simply remove the connector to ground essentially taking that part of the circuit out of the equation.
> 
> This change simply lifted the "veil" on this amp. I compared it to a Crack initially and the DV was much darker. After removing the Line Out loading issue, they were close to the same given the same tubes. The Crack might have been slightly better given better components and design overall (better transformer, correct heater voltage, and less resistance on headphone out, even if it did have an electrolytic cap on the output).



This is a moment where I wish that I had read more slowly. If it's true that disconnecting the ground is all you need to do to effectively remove it from the circuit, I would've just done that. Of course I can resolder everything, just gotta make sure I pay better attention. 

My copy of Grob's Basic Electronics is staring at me from my shelf, gobsmacked that I passed an electronics course just to forget everything...


----------



## Paladin79

dirtyoleg said:


> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/



Sorry I am in the middle of a few things and just skimming but it appears that the wires were removed from the output jacks, that really changes nothing in the circuit. Now if you removed the .47 ufd capacitor that is a different matter entirely and you may have done this as well?  All my Cracks were highly modified though to get the sound I wanted.

I was writing that before your post was up honest lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> This is a moment where I wish that I had read more slowly. If it's true that disconnecting the ground is all you need to do to effectively remove it from the circuit, I would've just done that. Of course I can resolder everything, just gotta make sure I pay better attention.
> 
> My copy of Grob's Basic Electronics is staring at me from my shelf, gobsmacked that I passed an electronics course just to forget everything...


Is there ground for input and output (both lines having their own separate ground wire)? Or what ground were they talking about. I was gonna do the same if it wasn't for all the melted glue everywhere.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 12, 2020)

So I grew a pair and went in and detached the ground. See how it goes.

Edit: Not sure if I'm hearing a difference. Trying not to have a placebo reaction. I did slap a Tung Sol in case the amp blew up, let me put the 7N7 bAVCk real quick
Edit: So not sure if I do or don't here a difference. Did I remove the wrong ground? 
I want to say it opened up the Sennheisers.. a lot.. but I'm sure it's placebo. (Is it)?



Anybody do the LED mod from the link?



"This is a fairly simple mod and also one I borrowed from the Crack schematic. I simply removed the 1K cathode biasing resistors on the 6SN7's and replaced with LED's just like the Crack".

these --->

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lite-on-inc/LTL-4221N/160-1139-ND/214530


----------



## doomjazz

So I removed the 220uf caps in parallel with the LEDs, installed the Audio Note Pot, and fired her up. The good news is that the full body of sound has returned. The bad news is that there's a lot of hum and noise. BUT. I've realized that there's a short somewhere bypassing the potentiometer, and it's likely causing all the buzz and noise. It sounds just like when you crank the stock pot without music playing. I started turning up the output on my interface connected to the Darkvoice and I started hearing music as if I was turning the pot on the Darkvoice itself. Using the pot on the Darkvoice had no appreciable effect. So, if I find where the short happened, I should eliminate the buzz and we're back in business.

JKDJedi, one of those forums suggests clipping out the 1M resistor next to the .47uf capacitor to truly remove the line-out. Care to try?


----------



## JKDJedi (May 13, 2020)

doomjazz said:


> So I removed the 220uf caps in parallel with the LEDs, installed the Audio Note Pot, and fired her up. The good news is that the full body of sound has returned. The bad news is that there's a lot of hum and noise. BUT. I've realized that there's a short somewhere bypassing the potentiometer, and it's likely causing all the buzz and noise. It sounds just like when you crank the stock pot without music playing. I started turning up the output on my interface connected to the Darkvoice and I started hearing music as if I was turning the pot on the Darkvoice itself. Using the pot on the Darkvoice had no appreciable effect. So, if I find where the short happened, I should eliminate the buzz and we're back in business.
> 
> JKDJedi, one of those forums suggests clipping out the 1M resistor next to the .47uf capacitor to truly remove the line-out. Care to try?


If you could show a photo of which resister, I'm totally clueless to this stuff, was so bored today that I went two feet with that ground cut...lol. If it's something I can reverse sure I'd give it a shot.
Edit: from the link he disconnected the wire entirely from board and RCA connects, might give that a spin later today. 2nd thought I'll do that when the LEDs get in. Jut them two and I'll call it a Modded Darky.   I'm good with the volume pot, doesn't bother me.
Edit: Pulled the wire out anyway


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> So I removed the 220uf caps in parallel with the LEDs, installed the Audio Note Pot, and fired her up. The good news is that the full body of sound has returned. The bad news is that there's a lot of hum and noise. BUT. I've realized that there's a short somewhere bypassing the potentiometer, and it's likely causing all the buzz and noise. It sounds just like when you crank the stock pot without music playing. I started turning up the output on my interface connected to the Darkvoice and I started hearing music as if I was turning the pot on the Darkvoice itself. Using the pot on the Darkvoice had no appreciable effect. So, if I find where the short happened, I should eliminate the buzz and we're back in business.
> 
> JKDJedi, one of those forums suggests clipping out the 1M resistor next to the .47uf capacitor to truly remove the line-out. Care to try?


Could you please share some pics of the LED bias mod that you did, and which LED did you end up using if you could please share that info.


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> If you could show a photo of which resister, I'm totally clueless to this stuff, was so bored today that I went two feet with that ground cut...lol. If it's something I can reverse sure I'd give it a shot.



The resistor is between the sets of 3 red caps and the caps(?) under the transformer. If you look directly down at the edge of the PCB, there are two resistors with the labels 1M above them.



JKDJedi said:


> Could you please share some pics of the LED bias mod that you did, and which LED did you end up using if you could please share that info.



LED here, though I found an orange version of it in the event it was bright enough to complement tube glow. I'll open it up tonight. I managed to fix all the issues I was having and had a good time listening to music last night. Connecting the first set of grounds to the second set of grounds on the potentiometer PCB and redoing some of the solder did the trick.

That being said... I just turned it on and after a few seconds of warming up, my 6080 arced and my right ear is ringing a little bit haha. Time to solve that mystery.


----------



## JKDJedi

doomjazz said:


> The resistor is between the sets of 3 red caps and the caps(?) under the transformer. If you look directly down at the edge of the PCB, there are two resistors with the labels 1M above them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ordered the same one but not sure what color, didn't know you could pick. That arch could of been some power still left over in there, happened to me once on a quick swap of the tubes. burned my finger and messed up my ear at the same time


----------



## bcowen (May 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Edit: Pulled the wire out anyway



So now you have a wireless Darkvoice.  Cool.

Uggh. Sorry.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So now you have a wireless Darkvoice.  Cool.
> 
> Uggh. Sorry.


I need to buy one and change some things lol. They actually cost less than a Bottlehead Crack kit.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So now you have a wireless Darkvoice.  Cool.
> 
> Uggh. Sorry.


L M F A O .... Rolling ...


----------



## JKDJedi

Almost forgot about these guys ...

Tung Sol Mouse Ears


----------



## JKDJedi

Might roll with this for a week. 1949 RCA (Cunningham) Black Plates 6AS7G.


----------



## SHIMACM (May 15, 2020)

.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15615426, membro: 467979"]
Pode rolar com isso por uma semana. 1949 RCA (Cunningham) Placas Pretas 6AS7G.


[/CITAR]


Estou muito curioso para ver como ele se compara ao TS5998 no Beyerdynamic.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15615426, membro: 467979"]
> Pode rolar com isso por uma semana. 1949 RCA (Cunningham) Placas Pretas 6AS7G.
> 
> 
> ...


Vou postar meus pensamentos depois de ouvir alguns tubos, minha primeira audição foi muito boa.  Eu gosto deste tubo.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Vou postar meus pensamentos depois de ouvir alguns tubos, minha primeira audição foi muito boa.  Eu gosto deste tubo.



I look forward to your impressions.


----------



## Absoltuion (May 15, 2020)

Wow this thread blew up over the weekend came back to 72 alerts, I'm sorry I was busy and couldn't get to it. The .47uf caps with resistors won't load up the same way as a direct connection to ground will. The resistors are there to bleed off the capacitors after you shut down the unit. I also have that entire section of board out of my amp caps, resistors, and lines though now.

But did your pot help with the channel imbalanced? I haven't tried that particular pot yet It looks smaller therefor easier to shoehorn in there compared to a ALPS. EDIT: I just read your last post. Yeah got to make sure on the pin out on those lol the pot that comes with the DV has an unusual pin out which is why I had to link the two pins for ground.
- for those of you wondering the pot only helps with channel imbalanced like mine way way off on lower listening level, not sound quality, They'll be the same.

I also did the LED biasing, But I opted to do a burn in over the Fitz mod so I wouldn't have been any help there outside of deduction work pairing a diode with a cap in parallel.

I'm also still waiting on my parts for my custom build. However the Transformer finally did ship but I think US customs are taking their sweet time. But once it's done it should be cheaper, of better/same quality and easily obtainable for everyone when compared to DV and Bottle Head respectively. - I'm not trying to sell anything I plan on making the circuit all free and open source.

I'll let out a point to point first with easy to follow pictures and instruction something you only need to know how to solder to do. And some "wood working" skill to make a box, or maybe if you found a large enough project box. I will also explain in writing and photo's of what could be swapped out like POTS and what not. I think I put my list on here before, I think the price was only $230 with using quality parts that weren't on sale to get a general baseline.

With some friends do up a PCB that can be cheaply made by a 3rd party maker shop of choice. - The open source part. For those who would feel more comfortable with through whole soldering like a custom keyboard. But doing this route you would loose some swap-ability on parts.


Side note: I've also been looking at Chinese dirt-bikes that that's also been taking up my time lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> Wow this thread blew up over the weekend came back to 72 alerts, I'm sorry I was busy and couldn't get to it. The .47uf caps with resistors won't load up the same way as a direct connection to ground will. The resistors are there to bleed off the capacitors after you shut down the unit. I also have that entire section of board out of my amp caps, resistors, and lines though now.
> 
> But did your pot help with the channel imbalanced? I haven't tried that particular pot yet It looks smaller therefor easier to shoehorn in there compared to a ALPS. EDIT: I just read your last post. Yeah got to make sure on the pin out on those lol the pot that comes with the DV has an unusual pin out which is why I had to link the two pins for ground.
> - for those of you wondering the pot only helps with channel imbalanced like mine way way off on lower listening level, not sound quality, They'll be the same.
> ...


Don't get anything from Wuhan!


----------



## Absoltuion (May 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Don't get anything from Wuhan!


I'm not even sure where it's from lol, So far though I've learned that are all pretty similar for the most part, some may use different carbs, slightly better frames, or welds. (similar to Chinese chainsaw MFGs - I build up Framertec saws which are the pinnacle of build quality a customer support as far a Chinese saw companies they are also pretty accurate clones of OEM stihl and husqvarna so OEM parts are a direct swap)

I have my eye one for $1,800 which has inverted forks and it's fuel injection. The are I think 2 other's in that price range with slightly better Build quality but they are carbonated. - not that I hate carbs I love them, But I'd like to hop on a bike on a below freezing morning and it just run. Let it do the tuning work. The motors are also copies of Honda CG125's pushrod motors bored out the 230cc so They'll probably run till the end of time just not a topend power house. - Screaming with stock gears is 60mph.

Sorry for getting off topic lol.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15615426, membro: 467979"]
> Pode rolar com isso por uma semana. 1949 RCA (Cunningham) Placas Pretas 6AS7G.
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking the exact same thing.  I think.


----------



## bcowen

Absoltuion said:


> Wow this thread blew up over the weekend came back to 72 alerts, I'm sorry I was busy and couldn't get to it. The .47uf caps with resistors won't load up the same way as a direct connection to ground will. The resistors are there to bleed off the capacitors after you shut down the unit. I also have that entire section of board out of my amp caps, resistors, and lines though now.
> 
> But did your pot help with the channel imbalanced? I haven't tried that particular pot yet It looks smaller therefor easier to shoehorn in there compared to a ALPS. EDIT: I just read your last post. Yeah got to make sure on the pin out on those lol the pot that comes with the DV has an unusual pin out which is why I had to link the two pins for ground.
> - for those of you wondering the pot only helps with channel imbalanced like mine way way off on lower listening level, not sound quality, They'll be the same.
> ...



I'm dying to see your work up of the dirt bike clone.  

Seriously, if you do get some boards made for the amp, I'm interested for sure.


----------



## bcowen

Anybody ever try one of these Westinghouse 6080's?  Nicely made.  Figured for $15 it was worth a gamble.


----------



## bcowen

And for tonight's listening delights, the Mullard 6080 and a nicely matching pair of round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  I gotta get @Deyan to make me one of his *good* adapters that not only is point-to-point wired with nice sockets, but has a rotatable base so my amp doesn't look goofy.  Appearance matters.    I'm afraid this China thing will break if I try and rotate it to line up correctly...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And for tonight's listening delights, the Mullard 6080 and a nicely matching pair of round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  I gotta get @Deyan to make me one of his *good* adapters that not only is point-to-point wired with nice sockets, but has a rotatable base so my amp doesn't look goofy.  Appearance matters.    I'm afraid this China thing will break if I try and rotate it to line up correctly...


Nice set up. Wouldn't mind having them Tung Sol. I believe if you loosen the center screw you could rotate the base a little to get it nice and centered. Might hunt down those tubes later on.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Nice set up. Wouldn't mind having them Tung Sol. I believe if you loosen the center screw you could rotate the base a little to get it nice and centered. Might hunt down those tubes later on.



Yeah, the China adapter can rotate a little ways. Just not enough to line it up with the side of the amp I don't think -- resistance is increasing enough I don't want to push it. I can live with the appearance until I can replace it.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the China adapter can rotate a little ways. Just not enough to line it up with the side of the amp I don't think -- resistance is increasing enough I don't want to push it. I can live with the appearance until I can replace it.


Looking at some really cheap black metal Tung Sol 6C5's whats the story on those?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Looking at some really cheap black metal Tung Sol 6C5's whats the story on those?



Hmmm...don't know.  Appears to be an earlier version of the 6J5. There are metal can versions of the 6J5 too, but I've never tried any of them.  I think you need to guinea-pig the 6C5's for us.  

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0060.htm


----------



## JKDJedi (May 16, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Hmmm...don't know.  Appears to be an earlier version of the 6J5. There are metal can versions of the 6J5 too, but I've never tried any of them.  I think you need to guinea-pig the 6C5's for us.
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0060.htm


I was thinking more of this type
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283348059589

How did I get sucked down this rabbit hole of 6C5 tubes!! Thanks @bcowen 
There's pricey GEC, Mullards out there and I'm reading that Pinnacle 6J5GT are the cats meow. Found some NOS JAN Sylvanias out there but they're not matching tubes (one taller than the other...but very low priced..tempting.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was thinking more of this type
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283348059589
> 
> How did I get sucked down this rabbit hole of 6C5 tubes!! Thanks @bcowen
> There's pricey GEC, Mullards out there and I'm reading that Pinnacle 6J5GT are the cats meow. Found some NOS JAN Sylvanias out there but they're not matching tubes (one taller than the other...but very low priced..tempting.



LOL!

Haven't ever heard of the Pinnacle.  There's these...if they turn out to be awesome you'd have plenty to share with your friends. Maybe me too.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 16, 2020)

*RCA (Cunningham) 1949 6AS7G & Tung Sol (IBM)  5998 Comparison *

Preamp Tube ---> Tung Sol (Zenith) Mouse Ears 6SN7GT

Headphone used--> Beyerdynamic DT770 250OHM ( Leather Pads)


Tracks used for comparison --> 

Before Your Very Eyes...  (Atoms For Peace)
Streets Of Philadelphia   (Bruce Springsteen)
Mi Historia entre tus dedos (Gianluca       Grignani)
Creep  (Radiohead)
Man Of War  (Radiohead)
Has Ended     (Thom Yorke)
Skinny Love (Bon Iver)



So early comparisons are that the 5998 does indeed have the higher reported amplification. To volume match both tubes I had to raise the volume on the RCA or lower it on the Tung Sol. If you own low impedance headphones the 5998 should help push them bass levels up.

The tonal signature is really hard to differentiate between the two, cudos to RCA ( with the Beyerdynamic,  Sennheiser comparisons for a later date) . The Tung Sol however has the upper hand on some spots here,  the cliche "full bodied" sound is here. Instruments and vocals are easily picked out, yet the RCA gels so melodiously .  I like em both. The surprise here for me is the RCA, I wasn't expecting to enjoy it as much as I am now. I sent the seller a message with a huge THANK YOU!!

On some tracks it appears the RCA spreads/blends the midrange (and/or vocals) across the left to right channels. With the 5998 the vocals are more centered, more refined, almost 3d like. I can see how the RCA tubes(or 6as7g tubes in general) get this super wide description, everything gets spread out across the spectrum. The 5998 has the tighter vocal control. It's not as holographic as the RCA. Both tubes extremely enjoyable.

I use to own the later version of this RCA tube, (Mid 60's?) and do not remember them being as enjoyable as this one i have now. To stand toe to toe with the 5998 I have here is very impressive.


----------



## doomjazz

Just scored an untested IBM 5998 for ~$50 on eBay, anyone here get the other one?

After the arcing, the amp has been acting fine. I need to take the time to give a more thorough reply to everything on here, though I'll save some time and let y'all know I can't comment on Chinese dirtbikes haha. If there was a meetup that involved hifi audio and motorsports, I couldn't be there fast enough.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 16, 2020)

doomjazz said:


> Just scored an untested IBM 5998 for ~$50 on eBay, anyone here get the other one?
> 
> After the arcing, the amp has been acting fine. I need to take the time to give a more thorough reply to everything on here, though I'll save some time and let y'all know I can't comment on Chinese dirtbikes haha. If there was a meetup that involved hifi audio and motorsports, I couldn't be there fast enough.


I have the same one...(same price) They didn't want to sell me the one you have...lol, I tried, sent them multiple messages and no answer... Was It Something I Said!?


----------



## doomjazz

JKDJedi said:


> I have the same one...(same price) They didn't want to sell me the one you have...lol, I tried, sent them multiple messages and no answer... Was It Something I Said!?



The listing I won was auction style. If you were reaching out to the same seller, chances are they wanted to let the auction run its course. In this case, OBO is a competition, not a chance to get it for less than the listing price based on the seller's mood haha.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have the same one...(same price) They didn't want to sell me the one you have...lol, I tried, sent them multiple messages and no answer... Was It Something I Said!?



They must have a hoarder collector detector. Not that I would know anything about such practices, of course.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 16, 2020)

doomjazz said:


> The listing I won was auction style. If you were reaching out to the same seller, chances are they wanted to let the auction run its course. In this case, OBO is a competition, not a chance to get it for less than the listing price based on the seller's mood haha.


They had the one I got as auction (kellystore09), I sent them a message with an offer with the hunch they didn't know what they had. Scored. They probably set your auctions listing to automatically go up to my asking price. Or dId the "hey can you bid on this up for me"? Thing, not that I've ever done that...  Either way we both SCORED!


----------



## JKDJedi

Well ... I'm keeping my day job that's for sure.. A for effort? 
Half way done! 

LED Bias Mod


----------



## SHIMACM

I looked on ebay and didn't find this tube being sold. Does anyone have the link?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I looked on ebay and didn't find this tube being sold. Does anyone have the link?


Search the seller I posted in parentheses


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> *RCA (Cunningham) 1949 6AS7G & Tung Sol (IBM)  5998 Comparison *
> 
> Preamp Tube ---> Tung Sol (Zenith) Mouse Ears 6SN7GT
> 
> ...



My RCAs are from the 60s. I'll start paying attention to I can find some of those from the 40s. It's really nice to compare Ts vs RCA. Will the RCA together with Ken Rad give Beyer more body? Maybe I can match with TS.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> My RCAs are from the 60s. I'll start paying attention to I can find some of those from the 40s. It's really nice to compare Ts vs RCA. Will the RCA together with Ken Rad give Beyer more body? Maybe I can match with TS.


RCA will do fine.


----------



## JKDJedi

so apparently the LED are direction specific... great.. have to tear her apart again..lol.. only getting one channel playing here X(


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> so apparently the LED are direction specific... great.. have to tear her apart again..lol.. only getting one channel playing here X(



It's that anode / cathode thing.  Whoever dreamed that up complicated things unnecessarily.


----------



## SHIMACM

I searched for the name of the seller and couldn't find it. Has it already been sold?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I searched for the name of the seller and couldn't find it. Has it already been sold?


It might have, she said she had more, search the store/seller and send her a message


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15618846, membro: 467979"]
Pode ter, ela disse que tinha mais, pesquisar na loja / vendedor e enviar uma mensagem para ela
[/CITAR]

Ok. I'll try


----------



## SHIMACM




----------



## SHIMACM

Can't find


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Can't find


Neither can I, so weird. Maybe try later,


----------



## Absoltuion

JKDJedi said:


> so apparently the LED are direction specific... great.. have to tear her apart again..lol.. only getting one channel playing here X(


LOL, Yeah that's the whole point of a diode! I'm sorry, the long legs are usually the positive.


----------



## JKDJedi

Absoltuion said:


> LOL, Yeah that's the whole point of a diode! I'm sorry, the long legs are usually the positive.


Thanks, I turned the one around that I think was the one I put in backwards. If not I'll tear her apart again Monday.  So positive goes into the socket or out? Thanks Absolution for that push, it was a lot of fun to get in there. I'm actually smiling here. Well putting her back together, see how it goes.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 16, 2020)

Dude!!! Sick!!!! They actually glow!!! Stoked.....
I have ...created.... FIRE!!!


----------



## Absoltuion

Sorry I got distracted glad to see it's working!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Dude!!! Sick!!!! They actually glow!!!



ROFL!!  That would be the LE preceding the D.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  That would be the LE preceding the D.


I honestly don't know why I did that, well I know why I did it, just don't know what I did.. maybe this article can help --->  https://www.humbuckermusic.com/pages/tube-amp-bias-article


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was thinking more of this type
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283348059589
> 
> How did I get sucked down this rabbit hole of 6C5 tubes!! Thanks @bcowen
> There's pricey GEC, Mullards out there and I'm reading that Pinnacle 6J5GT are the cats meow. Found some NOS JAN Sylvanias out there but they're not matching tubes (one taller than the other...but very low priced..tempting.



Here's some 6C5's in glass bottles.  Interesting looking:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6C5GT-Tung...brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was thinking more of this type
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283348059589
> 
> How did I get sucked down this rabbit hole of 6C5 tubes!! Thanks @bcowen
> There's pricey GEC, Mullards out there and I'm reading that Pinnacle 6J5GT are the cats meow. Found some NOS JAN Sylvanias out there but they're not matching tubes (one taller than the other...but very low priced..tempting.



Well, since you didn't jump on these I couldn't just like, you know, like let them sit there or something. That would have been rude. 

After a couple back-and-forths, ended up at $100 Canadian with free shipping, or about $71 US.  Now if only these sound good. LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, since you didn't jump on these I couldn't just like, you know, like let them sit there or something. That would have been rude.
> 
> After a couple back-and-forths, ended up at $100 Canadian with free shipping, or about $71 US.  Now if only these sound good. LOL!


Did you really? Save me two please.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Did you really? Save me two please.



Let's see:  2 in the amp, 2 for backups, 2 as backups for the backups, 2 for emergency stash, 2 as backups for the emergency stash, and 2 probably won't test well.  That leaves 4, so can do. You get two for bringing them to light.  If they're good, that is. If they're bad you still get two, just delivered in a different fashion. LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Let's see:  2 in the amp, 2 for backups, 2 as backups for the backups, 2 for emergency stash, 2 as backups for the emergency stash, and 2 probably won't test well.  That leaves 4, so can do. You get two for bringing them to light.  If they're good, that is. If they're bad you still get two, just delivered in a different fashion. LOL!


LMAO 😂 thanks, I'll get the adapter on order!


----------



## JKDJedi

If it doesn't pan out we could blame "Morgan"

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/122123-6j5-shootout-ones.html


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> *RCA (Cunningham) 1949 6AS7G & Tung Sol (IBM)  5998 Comparison *
> 
> Preamp Tube ---> Tung Sol (Zenith) Mouse Ears 6SN7GT
> 
> ...



Just a doubt that hit now. How do you know this tube is from the 40s?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Just a doubt that hit now. How do you know this tube is from the 40s?


RCA date codes is tricky one.. some have letters some just three numbers...or four, was looking into this last week myself.


----------



## JKDJedi

My guess is that this tube is a 1956.. four  (four numbers- first two the last digits of 1956, the other two week of that year)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133403191704

My other guess is that these are 1949... (Three numbers, the first number last digit of 1949
) 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333549496609


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> My guess is that this tube is a 1956.. four  (four numbers- first two the last digits of 1956, the other two week of that year)
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/133403191704
> 
> My other guess is that these are 1949... (Three numbers, the first number last digit of 1949
> ...




Obrigado pelo link e pelas explicações. Chegou a testar o seu RCA com Ken Rad no Beyer?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Obrigado pelo link e pelas explicações. Chegou a testar o seu RCA com Ken Rad no Beyer?


Ainda não.  Estou usando um National Union VT-231 agora com a RCA.  gostando dessa mistura.


----------



## SHIMACM

Does União Nacional VT-231 sound more analytical or warm and exuberant?


----------



## SHIMACM

I bought a RCA NOS vt231 smoked glass. I look forward to seeing how it compares to Ken Rad.

I am also looking for a Raytheon Vt231 at a price that is not absurd.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Does União Nacional VT-231 sound more analytical or warm and exuberant?


It's the warmest tube so far of the bunch.. and it's really hard to get a Beyerdynamic to sound warm... totally opposite of the Sennheiser HD6XX. Like em both, especially after the mods I did, Sennheiser is a different animal now.


----------



## JKDJedi

Finally rolling the Ken Rad with the RCA @SHIMACM .... DUDE O.O   Very Nice.  Which T1 do you have first or 2nd generation? Those cans look really nice. Might have to add them to my holiday wish list, nice pick up! I haven't rolled all my favorite tubes yet with the RCA , (been out trail blazing). Those would be the Franken 7N7, TungSol 6SN7GTB, short Sylvania 6SN7GT, ( my one tall SYlvania 6SN7gt took a crap  ) Ken RAd Clear glass, I already rolled the mouse ears, National Union, and the now Dark one Ken RAdiuos.  (sick tubey echos here with the DArk One)


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Finally rolling the Ken Rad with the RCA @SHIMACM .... DUDE O.O   Very Nice.  Which T1 do you have first or 2nd generation? Those cans look really nice. Might have to add them to my holiday wish list, nice pick up! I haven't rolled all my favorite tubes yet with the RCA , (been out trail blazing). Those would be the Franken 7N7, TungSol 6SN7GTB, short Sylvania 6SN7GT, ( my one tall SYlvania 6SN7gt took a crap  ) Ken RAd Clear glass, I already rolled the mouse ears, National Union, and the now Dark one Ken RAdiuos.  (sick tubey echos here with the DArk One)



I have the first generation T1. Excellent treble. Even more with valves that tame them. Look, honestly, it is even difficult to think in my head a better sound than I am already listening with Ken Rad and RCA on my T1. It has a decent amount of bass (with impact and extension), an excellent sound stage, excellent separation of instruments, I love it. The T1 is very clear and detailed, so warmer valves make it very good. Leaves the sound "warm" without losing the detail. In addition to the RCA 6asn7GT vt231 smoked glass, I ended up pulling the trigger and buying a Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231. I have good toys on the way. I'm curious to compare Vts 231 Kenrad, RCA and Raytheon. To complete my collection I believe that I only need the Tung-Sol / Chatham 6as7g and TS 5998. But for those I need patience.

So far my collection of tubes comes down to:

Pre Tubes

Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (vintage)

Sylvania 6sn7wgt

Ken Rad VT231 clear glass

RCA vt231 smoked glass

Raytheon Vt231

Power Pipes

Sylvania 6080

RCA JAN 6as7g

Mullard 6080


----------



## JKDJedi (May 19, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> I have the first generation T1. Excellent treble. Even more with valves that tame them. Look, honestly, it is even difficult to think in my head a better sound than I am already listening with Ken Rad and RCA on my T1. It has a decent amount of bass (with impact and extension), an excellent sound stage, excellent separation of instruments, I love it. The T1 is very clear and detailed, so warmer valves make it very good. Leaves the sound "warm" without losing the detail. In addition to the RCA 6asn7GT vt231 smoked glass, I ended up pulling the trigger and buying a Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231. I have good toys on the way. I'm curious to compare Vts 231 Kenrad, RCA and Raytheon. To complete my collection I believe that I only need the Tung-Sol / Chatham 6as7g and TS 5998. But for those I need patience.
> 
> So far my collection of tubes comes down to:
> 
> ...


Let us know what you think of the Raytheon please. And nice collection there.


----------



## wwmhf

SHIMACM said:


> Power Pipes
> 
> Sylvania 6080
> 
> ...



How about some 7236?


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Dude!!! Sick!!!! They actually glow!!! Stoked.....
> I have ...created.... FIRE!!!



It looks amazing, but how does it sound?


----------



## wwmhf

Absoltuion said:


> Wow this thread blew up over the weekend came back to 72 alerts, I'm sorry I was busy and couldn't get to it. The .47uf caps with resistors won't load up the same way as a direct connection to ground will. The resistors are there to bleed off the capacitors after you shut down the unit. I also have that entire section of board out of my amp caps, resistors, and lines though now.
> 
> But did your pot help with the channel imbalanced? I haven't tried that particular pot yet It looks smaller therefor easier to shoehorn in there compared to a ALPS. EDIT: I just read your last post. Yeah got to make sure on the pin out on those lol the pot that comes with the DV has an unusual pin out which is why I had to link the two pins for ground.
> - for those of you wondering the pot only helps with channel imbalanced like mine way way off on lower listening level, not sound quality, They'll be the same.
> ...



I am looking forward to your announcement ...


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> It looks amazing, but how does it sound?


Opened up my Sennheiser big time.. massive air movement.. the RCA hack did most of it, the LED hack cleaned it up. I have a new amp.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> Opened up my Sennheiser big time.. massive air movement.. the RCA hack did most of it, the LED hack cleaned it up. I have a new amp.



These actions sound very enticing, remembering my comments on the "veil" over the Senn 650?


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> These actions sound very enticing, remembering my comments on the "veil" over the Senn 650?


I know nothing about soldering and electronics, watched a YouTube vid on how to solder though a few of them actually, just to get the idea of it. And opened and closed my amp a dozen times thinking...your crazy dude. Then last week... Probably out of pure boredom I dove in with two feet and went for it. No guts..no glory kind of thing. And I made mistakes, lucky for me easy to fix mistakes. I got a huge rush when I finally finished the project. Simple to someone who knows what he's doing I'm sure. But for me.. it was the beginning of an awesome weekend last Saturday.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Let us know what you think of the Raytheon please. And nice collection there.


It should take a month to arrive.  As soon as he is with me, he can let me post my impressions.  You had asked me to compare the mullard 6080 with the sylvania 6080, which I owe you too.  But my mullard has not yet arrived.


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> How about some 7236?


The type of music I listen to, 7236 never caught my eye.  Mainly for the comments that say that his sound is close to the solid state.


----------



## Absoltuion (May 20, 2020)

@JKDJedi
I'm still waiting on the transformer looks like it's having problems in Singapore.
EDIT: So my package with the 660 drivers and other stuff is coming today, but all my other stuff got forwarded to my new address =/. It would be nice if USPS would make up it's mind.


----------



## JKDJedi

The tin cans just arrived, the chifi adapter is stuck in a boat somewhere between here and China  
Three of them has something lose in there... So won't know what that's about till that adapter gets here. Grabbed them for the novelty of them, tin can tubes...lol.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The tin cans just arrived, the chifi adapter is stuck in a boat somewhere between here and China
> Three of them has something lose in there... So won't know what that's about till that adapter gets here. Grabbed them for the novelty of them, tin can tubes...lol.



Loose doesn't sound happy, although I'm certainly no expert on tubes in a can.   Be happy to test them for you though while you're waiting on the adapters.

And while you're waiting on the adapters, I'm waiting on my 5998 that seems to have lost its way between the Charlotte distribution hub and my house...maybe 15 miles.  Sent Priority Mail and landed there last Thursday with no tracking updates since.  Grrrrrrrr..........


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> The tin cans just arrived, the chifi adapter is stuck in a boat somewhere between here and China
> Three of them has something lose in there... So won't know what that's about till that adapter gets here. Grabbed them for the novelty of them, tin can tubes...lol.


For tubes with something lose in there, proceed cautiously. I usually turn on the amp with such a tube without a phone plugged in. Then, plug in a disposable phone and gradually put it close to my ears just in case of pops and crackles that might hurt. After that, I will play some music to listen how it sound. If all are OK, I will plug in my usual phone to test the sound. I learnt this procedure in a very hard way ...


----------



## SHIMACM (May 22, 2020)

has anyone compared Melz 1578 to vts 231 (Ken rad, raytheon, sylvania and rca)?


----------



## SHIMACM

is this GE a Tung-sol / Chatham 6as7g? Or is it an RCA?


----------



## wwmhf

Looks like a RCA to me ...


----------



## JKDJedi (May 23, 2020)

wwmhf said:


> Looks like a RCA to me ...


My best guess is RCA the same. Sylvania made a few for GE so there's a chance it's a Sylvania, but most likely a RCA. It's a nice year to grab 1956. But some utter at the sound or sight of a GE here.  Me personally, never liked a GE, haven't heard a one that sounded good.


----------



## JKDJedi

Weekend's Roll


----------



## wwmhf

A tube configuration similar to mine ... Because of 6F8 tubes, I haven't used any 6sn7 tubes for a long time.


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> A tube configuration similar to mine ... Because of 6F8 tubes, I haven't used any 6sn7 tubes for a long time.


Been watching a National Union for awhile.. haven't pulled the trigger yet. Which one are you rolling?


----------



## wwmhf

A Sylvania.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> is this GE a Tung-sol / Chatham 6as7g? Or is it an RCA?



Can you get any other views of it?  If it was actually manufactured by GE it would have little dots etched in the glass somewhere like in the example below. They started doing that around 1952, and minus the dots it was very likely made by someone else.  I'm of the same mind as @JKDJedi on GE's. I've heard one tube they actually made (a big honkin' 211) that was quite good, but their nine-pin and octal signal tubes pretty much scrape the bottom of the barrel, exceeded in collective suck-ness only by Philips ECG's.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Weekend's Roll



Would you guys quit it?  I can't keep up.   

But I figured I'd give these a whirl anyway and see how close they get to the expensive Melz (true) 1578.  Not an exact 6SN7 substitute (more like a 6021) but close enough not to blow anything up.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Would you guys quit it?  I can't keep up.
> 
> But I figured I'd give these a whirl anyway and see how close they get to the expensive Melz (true) 1578.  Not an exact 6SN7 substitute (more like a 6021) but close enough not to blow anything up.


Whoa...whats with the wires at the bottom? This I want to see how it's put together, keep us posted please! (lol... i buy in spurts, I can go months ok then that one week..buy...buy ...buy!!   )


----------



## SHIMACM

I ended up pulling the trigger on this one.


----------



## wwmhf

I read somewhere that Chatham is good


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Whoa...whats with the wires at the bottom? This I want to see how it's put together, keep us posted please! (lol... i buy in spurts, I can go months ok then that one week..buy...buy ...buy!!   )



That there be one of them subminiature types.   Below is a Mullard Blackburn CV3986 in the Vali 2 (subbing for a 6922). Sounds really nice!  I still prefer the Frankie as my #1 personal fave (in that amp), but the Mullard gets really close and sounds better than most of the 6922's I've tried.  Now if I can get close to the $100+ Melz 1578 sound for $3/tube, then I'll feel special.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I ended up pulling the trigger on this one.



Sweet!  Let us know what you think of it. I was bidding on one the other day, but got outbid at the last minute.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That there be one of them subminiature types.   Below is a Mullard Blackburn CV3986 in the Vali 2 (subbing for a 6922). Sounds really nice!  I still prefer the Frankie as my #1 personal fave (in that amp), but the Mullard gets really close and sounds better than most of the 6922's I've tried.  Now if I can get close to the $100+ Melz 1578 sound for $3/tube, then I'll feel special.


Now that's a project... Nice! Was that soldered into place or?


----------



## SHIMACM

wwmhf said:


> I read somewhere that Chatham is good



I've read in more than one place saying that this tube is the most holographic 6as7g. The folks from Elise and Euphoria are very fond of him. I read some people preferring it to the TS5998. When I arrive, I'll post my impressions.


----------



## SHIMACM

Comments I read about him:



"It also appears on the Chatham label. The 6520 labels can also be a" select "version of this tube. Notable construction details include contrasting silver fins on the plates, which project through the upper and lower mica.

Probably my favorite tube and exactly the right spot for me. that is, somewhere between 5998 and RCA 6AS7. You get 80% of the brightness, resolution and balance of the 5998 with the addition of juice in the middle. Mid-range champion with impressive and mysterious guitars and holographic vocals. Excellent 3D realism in percussion. It does not give up much in detail, but it is generally softer at the edges. Fluid and effortless, but not stained. Arrange not as wide as the best of the best, but it surpasses everything in depth and texture. Behind 5998 and GEC6080 in pure technicality, but ahead in general cohesion and emotional engagement. Slightly rolled at the top. Reputable low-end. For £ 30, it kills everything else in that price range (and above, depending on taste). Treble: 7 Middle: 10 Bass: 7





Overall performance: 9/10
Value for money 9/10 "


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Now that's a project... Nice! Was that soldered into place or?



Yes, soldered to the pin holes in a 9-pin socket saver and I then glued a piece of black painted PVC pipe to the top of the socket saver to protect the leads. Not very elegant, but it was my first stab at it...and it works.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Comments I read about him:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent find!! Those are rare, you scored buddy.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yes, soldered to the pin holes in a 9-pin socket saver and I then glued a piece of black painted PVC pipe to the top of the socket saver to protect the leads. Not very elegant, but it was my first stab at it...and it works.


That I've never done...not yet anyway  Hows the amplification compared to the 6sn7's?
Edit: well im looking at a 70's to 80's set and a 60's set..which one should I get? Thanks @bcowen


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Excellent find!! Those are rare, you scored buddy.



Good, I'm satisfied! Now it's waiting to arrive. To complete my collection, only one TS5998 is missing. I will continue to lurk.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Good, I'm satisfied! Now it's waiting to arrive. To complete my collection, only one TS5998 is missing. I will continue to lurk.


LOL.. I highly doubt that satisfaction. So many tubes...so little time


----------



## bcowen (May 24, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> That I've never done...not yet anyway  Hows the amplification compared to the 6sn7's?
> Edit: well im looking at a 70's to 80's set and a 60's set..which one should I get? Thanks @bcowen



Slightly higher gain than a 6SN7.  One thing to be careful of before you buy though.  The plate voltage of the 6N16B is rated at 100v for "normal" operation. Max of 200v.  Not a problem with the Incubus amp I'm using that runs 90v on the plates. Not sure what plate (anode) voltage your Darkvoice runs though. Most amps using 6SN7's as driver tubes run in the 90v - 100v range, but probably worth checking to be sure.

I went with the '64's due to some casual listener (I think it was @Paladin79 or something) liking the '63 Melz 1578's more compared to the 70's or 80's vintage ones.    These 6N16B's may not even remotely compare to the 1578 so that may be irrelevant, but it seemed like a good place to start.

Edit: just to be clear, although some sites mention the 6N16's as a sub for a 6SN7, they are not a direct sub, and that goes beyond just the pinout differences. Filament current and voltage as well as plate and cathode currents are all compatible, but there are other differences between the two. I wanted to try these because, well, I'm me and do stupid schiit by nature.   If I fry something then it's my problem...just don't want to be responsible for anyone else having a problem based on my antics.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Slightly higher gain than a 6SN7.  One thing to be careful of before you buy though.  The plate voltage of the 6N16B is rated at 100v for "normal" operation. Max of 200v.  Not a problem with the Incubus amp I'm using that runs 90v on the plates. Not sure what plate (anode) voltage your Darkvoice runs though. Most amps using 6SN7's as driver tubes run in the 90v - 100v range, but probably worth checking to be sure.
> 
> I went with the '64's due to some casual listener (I think it was @Paladin79 or something) liking the '63 Melz 1578's more compared to the 70's or 80's vintage ones.    These 6N16B's may not even remotely compare to the 1578 so that may be irrelevant, but it seemed like a good place to start.


It has been ages since I had tube theory in college but there is DC plate voltage and as I recall peak plate voltage and that can be up around 400 volts on the 6sn7 as best I recall. I am curious to see how the 6N16B's work out.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has been ages since I had tube theory in college but there is DC plate voltage and as I recall peak plate voltage and that can be up around 400 volts on the 6sn7 as best I recall. I am curious to see how the 6N16B's work out.



Whew.  I'm glad you're 'interested', 'cause if I fry the Incubus guess who I'll be calling for help?  LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has been ages since I had tube theory in college but there is DC plate voltage and as I recall peak plate voltage and that can be up around 400 volts on the 6sn7 as best I recall. I am curious to see how the 6N16B's work out.



Man, that slipped right by me.  They had colleges back then?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Man, that slipped right by me.  They had colleges back then?


Colleges yes, tubes yes, transistors I would have to think about lol.  If you fry the Incubus you will need to practice using the words "door stop" and "paperweight" in sentences cause it will be time for me to start pretending I do not know you.   I would mention "boat anchor" except it might not sink to the bottom with the wood I used in the cabinet.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Slightly higher gain than a 6SN7.  One thing to be careful of before you buy though.  The plate voltage of the 6N16B is rated at 100v for "normal" operation. Max of 200v.  Not a problem with the Incubus amp I'm using that runs 90v on the plates. Not sure what plate (anode) voltage your Darkvoice runs though. Most amps using 6SN7's as driver tubes run in the 90v - 100v range, but probably worth checking to be sure.
> 
> I went with the '64's due to some casual listener (I think it was @Paladin79 or something) liking the '63 Melz 1578's more compared to the 70's or 80's vintage ones.    These 6N16B's may not even remotely compare to the 1578 so that may be irrelevant, but it seemed like a good place to start.
> 
> Edit: just to be clear, although some sites mention the 6N16's as a sub for a 6SN7, they are not a direct sub, and that goes beyond just the pinout differences. Filament current and voltage as well as plate and cathode currents are all compatible, but there are other differences between the two. I wanted to try these because, well, I'm me and do stupid schiit by nature.   If I fry something then it's my problem...just don't want to be responsible for anyone else having a problem based on my antics.


Oh crap....my amp just went up in smoke.... 

JOKING!!


----------



## Jared S

Hello everybody. I have a tung sol 6as7 and Im looking to upgrade. what do you guys recommend? I found these , are any a good deal? Any other recommendation is appreciated. Must ship to the Philippines

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-MULLARD-OLD-LOGO-BLACK-PLATE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/192923422425

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-G...839231?hash=item5474fab0ff:g:B3UAAOSwufFdaJf3


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> Hello everybody. I have a tung sol 6as7 and Im looking to upgrade. what do you guys recommend? I found these , are any a good deal? Any other recommendation is appreciated. Must ship to the Philippines
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-MULLARD-OLD-LOGO-BLACK-PLATE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/192923422425
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-G...839231?hash=item5474fab0ff:g:B3UAAOSwufFdaJf3


Tung Sol 6AS7g are rare, can you upload a pic of that tube? You might enjoy that Mullard 6080 over the GE. One of them domino plated Tung Sols is considered an upgrade, the 5998. What headphones are you using?


----------



## Jared S

JKDJedi said:


> Tung Sol 6AS7g are rare, can you upload a pic of that tube? You might enjoy that Mullard 6080 over the GE. One of them domino plated Tung Sols is considered an upgrade, the 5998. What headphones are you using?



Its a tungsol 7236. Its also paired with a hytron 5692 brown base.


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> Its a tungsol 7236. Its also paired with a hytron 5692 brown base.


And headphones?


----------



## Jared S

JKDJedi said:


> And headphones?



Sennheiser 6xx, blon b20, neumann ndh20


----------



## JKDJedi (May 25, 2020)

Jared S said:


> Sennheiser 6xx, blon b20, neumann ndh20


If you can find an older RCA (1940-50) that could be your bang for your buck tube. Have the HD6XX and it sounds great with that tube. That GE sort of looks like an RCA but not positive. And 1945... Looks like a good gamble to pick up. But check around for RCA (1940-50), you can find them cheaper than the asking price for that GE


----------



## Jared S

JKDJedi said:


> If you can find an older RCA (1940-50) that could be your bang for your buck tube. Have the HD6XX and it sounds great with that tube. That GE sort of looks like an RCA but not positive. And 1945... Looks like a good gamble to pick up. But check around for RCA (1940-50), you can find them cheaper than the asking price for that GE



Is the RCA better than the mullard?


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> Is the RCA better than the mullard?


Depends what your looking for, tighter sound and vocals go to the Mullard, rounder sound stage and that holographic sound, RCA. "Better" is hard to define here


----------



## Jared S

JKDJedi said:


> Depends what your looking for, tighter sound and vocals go to the Mullard, rounder sound stage and that holographic sound, RCA. "Better" is hard to define here



Got it  Can you take a look at these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-6080-NOS-NIB-TESTED-STRONG-93-97-vacuum-tube-B4/293547236513

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1954-RCA-JAN-CRC-6AS7G-tube-NOS-New-In-Box-Date-Code-4-48/362739828395

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1949-R...-Stock-New-In-Box-Date-Code-9-39/362739818744

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7GA-TUBE/283688617722

https://www.ebay.com/itm/COUNTERPOINT-JAN-6080-RAYTHEON-USA-BRAND-NEW-OLD-STOCK-TUBE/264272379101


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Svet...093672&hash=item1a40b928f8:g:BvEAAOSwpO9c6TSk

These are very good tubes for the price and bound to increase in price IMHO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Jared S said:


> Got it  Can you take a look at these?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-6080-NOS-NIB-TESTED-STRONG-93-97-vacuum-tube-B4/293547236513
> 
> ...


2nd and 3rd link is best bet but they only ship to USA  good luck man, the others suck balls IMO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Svet...093672&hash=item1a40b928f8:g:BvEAAOSwpO9c6TSk
> 
> These are very good tubes for the price and bound to increase in price IMHO.


Read that these are way better than the "new" tubes that are out there, which I had. Would love to have a NOS version of the tube. The new version was nothing special to me.


----------



## Jared S

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Svet...093672&hash=item1a40b928f8:g:BvEAAOSwpO9c6TSk
> 
> These are very good tubes for the price and bound to increase in price IMHO.



What do these sound like?


----------



## Paladin79

Jared S said:


> What do these sound like?


Decent bass, crisp mids and highs. A well rounded tube with few deficiencies.


----------



## bcowen (May 25, 2020)

Jared S said:


> Hello everybody. I have a tung sol 6as7 and Im looking to upgrade. what do you guys recommend? I found these , are any a good deal? Any other recommendation is appreciated. Must ship to the Philippines
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-MULLARD-OLD-LOGO-BLACK-PLATE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/192923422425
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-G...839231?hash=item5474fab0ff:g:B3UAAOSwufFdaJf3



I have a Mullard 6080 and like it quite a bit. Whether _you'll_ like it I can't say.

The GE?  If I hadn't just scored a pair of Chatham 6AS7G's I'd be jumping on that.  GE's pretty much suck universally, at least the ones that were actually made by them. But (and a _big_ but), the one you linked was made in 1945, the same year that GE acquired KenRad. While I can't guarantee it, with the black plates that tube was almost certainly made by KenRad before GE got settled in enough to muck everything up.  I haven't heard one so I don't know how it sounds (and again I have no idea whether _you'd_ like it), but early 40's KenRads are extremely desirable tubes regardless of the type.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I have a Mullard 6080 and like it quite a bit. Whether _you'll_ like it I can't say.
> 
> The GE?  If I hadn't just scored a pair of Chatham 6AS7G's I'd be jumping on that.  GE's pretty much suck universally, at least the ones that were actually made by them. But (and a _big_ but), the one you linked was made in 1945, the same year that GE acquired KenRad. While I can't guarantee it, with the black plates that tube was almost certainly made by KenRad before GE got settled in enough to muck everything up.  I haven't heard one so I don't know how it sounds (and again I have no idea whether _you'd_ like it), but early 40's KenRads are extremely desirable tubes regardless of the type.


When I saw it was like..hmmm, but just out of reach price wise on a gamble. I've maxed out my tube allowance  I'm saving up for a Bad Boy again...lol..why i sold the ones I had..I don't know.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm saving up for a Bad Boy again...lol..why i sold the ones I had..I don't know.



Because Sylvania 6SN7W's sound better?    

OK, I'll shut up.  A 6SN7W is basically a Frankie with an octal base.  Oh, and a 20x price tag.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Because Sylvania 6SN7W's sound better?
> 
> OK, I'll shut up.  A 6SN7W is basically a Frankie with an octal base.  Oh, and a 20x price tag.  LOL!


Holy Price Shock!! What in the world.... Never heard of these... No.....no....no.... There goes my bank account


----------



## Jared S

Are brimars any good?What is 1/2 6sn7gt? This is the first time I have heard of 1/2   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-1-2-6...-England-Amplitrex-tested-819016/191772387495


----------



## Jared S

bcowen said:


> I have a Mullard 6080 and like it quite a bit. Whether _you'll_ like it I can't say.
> 
> The GE?  If I hadn't just scored a pair of Chatham 6AS7G's I'd be jumping on that.  GE's pretty much suck universally, at least the ones that were actually made by them. But (and a _big_ but), the one you linked was made in 1945, the same year that GE acquired KenRad. While I can't guarantee it, with the black plates that tube was almost certainly made by KenRad before GE got settled in enough to muck everything up.  I haven't heard one so I don't know how it sounds (and again I have no idea whether _you'd_ like it), but early 40's KenRads are extremely desirable tubes regardless of the type.



I almost bought the GE but woah the shipping is $50! it is almost the price of the tube  I think i'll go for the mullard....


----------



## Paladin79 (May 26, 2020)

Jared S said:


> Are brimars any good?What is 1/2 6sn7gt? This is the first time I have heard of 1/2
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-1-2-6...-England-Amplitrex-tested-819016/191772387495


Prior to dual triode tubes there were single triode tubes, that is one of them. With adapters two of them will replace a 6sn7, the gain is half what a 6sn7 would be so they match up very well and provide a bit better channel separation IMHO. Dual triode tubes have internal shielding to help prevent crosstalk. The loktal version is the 7A4. They are another reason I designed some amps for a 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge, I left enough room to conceal single triode tubes as well as some of the larger Chinese tubes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Holy Price Shock!! What in the world.... Never heard of these... No.....no....no.... There goes my bank account



I have a pair that I paid a decent price for but not even close to the current asking price.  I've swapped them multiple times with the Lansdale labeled Frankentube in both the Lyr 3 and Vali 2, and if there's any difference I don't have skilled enough ears to hear it.  Pretty much identical sonically, at least to me.  Only notable difference is that I paid $5 for the Lansdale.


----------



## bcowen

Jared S said:


> Are brimars any good?What is 1/2 6sn7gt? This is the first time I have heard of 1/2
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-1-2-6...-England-Amplitrex-tested-819016/191772387495



I have a pair of the Brimar 6J5's.  I like the TungSol round plate 6J5's better -- more body, deeper bass, and more dynamic.  Just one man's opinion though...


----------



## Absoltuion (May 26, 2020)

Well, looks like the day has come I received the transformer.

I need to get off my rear and get to the wood shop to build a case. So tomorrow I'll start on that, I'm unsure of the wood I have on hand nor do I have my router. So don't be expecting much.

Only issue I had with the transformer is they only did a center pot. I've taken this up with the mfg but have a transformer to test with to the time being is great.

EDIT: it also doesn't have a center tap ground like I asked-.-, meaning I can't use it. I was waiting for so long for this.

View attachment 11243060.jpg


----------



## Paladin79

Absoltuion said:


> Well, looks like the day has come I received the transformer.
> 
> I need to get off my rear and get to the wood shop to build a case. So tomorrow I'll start on that, I'm unsure of the wood I have on hand nor do I have my router. So don't be expecting much.
> 
> ...


What exactly are you making? I understand the virtues of toroidal transformers, sorry you did not get what you are seeking.


----------



## Absoltuion

Paladin79 said:


> What exactly are you making? I understand the virtues of toroidal transformers, sorry you did not get what you are seeking.


If you scroll back some pages I started a little side project of a open source PCB tube amp This transformer was for it.


----------



## Paladin79

Absoltuion said:


> If you scroll back some pages I started a little side project of a open source PCB tube amp This transformer was for it.


Ok I will do that as time allows.


----------



## Absoltuion

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will do that as time allows.


It's not much it's still in a very rough stage on perf board


----------



## Paladin79 (May 26, 2020)

Absoltuion said:


> It's not much it's still in a very rough stage on perf board


I am curious so I will certainly locate it. While I have done some PC board design I am going point to point with my present builds. Maybe one day I will do something open source but not with the amp I just designed and the components are often too costly for some folks.

Here are some Sylvania 6j5g tubes I just acquired, I love the ST style glass and these have a sound all their own. Just starting the listen but so far the bass and mids are to die for.


----------



## bcowen

Absoltuion said:


> Well, looks like the day has come I received the transformer.
> 
> I need to get off my rear and get to the wood shop to build a case. So tomorrow I'll start on that, I'm unsure of the wood I have on hand nor do I have my router. So don't be expecting much.
> 
> ...



I vote for Tiger maple.  Maple is (of course) the best sounding wood.   And Tiger maple is the, um, cat's meow (ugh) of maple.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious so I will certainly locate it. While I have done some PC board design I am going point to point with my present builds. Maybe one day I will do something open source but not with the amp I just designed and the components are often too costly for some folks.
> 
> Here are some Sylvania 6j5g tubes I just acquired, I love the ST style glass and these have a sound all their own. Just starting the listen but so far the bass and mids are to die for.



Your amp is built sideways.  No offense.  Just sayin'.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious so I will certainly locate it. While I have done some PC board design I am going point to point with my present builds. Maybe one day I will do something open source but not with the amp I just designed and the components are often too costly for some folks.
> 
> Here are some Sylvania 6j5g tubes I just acquired, I love the ST style glass and these have a sound all their own. Just starting the listen but so far the bass and mids are to die for.


There's a few Philips out there that I know Sylvania made for them, or at least the 6SN7 they did, you think these 6J5g Philips worth the grab? Same bottle design.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> There's a few Philips out there that I know Sylvania made for them, or at least the 6SN7 they did, you think these 6J5g Philips worth the grab? Same bottle design.


They are probably all right as well. Some Sylvanias are amazing but few are below average imho.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> They are probably all right as well. Some Sylvanias are amazing but few are below average imho.


I feel the same about em.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I vote for Tiger maple.  Maple is (of course) the best sounding wood.   And Tiger maple is the, um, cat's meow (ugh) of maple.


It would  look so good with VU meters, maybe you will own a pair one day, VU meters that is.


----------



## Jared S

Has anybody heard this tube?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7GA-TUBE/283688617722?hash=item420d28c6fa:g:hCQAAOSw1qVd3JlQ


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Your amp is built sideways.  No offense.  Just sayin'.  LOL!!


That amp was just an experiment, I will build a semi serious version soon that I will hang onto. I am about done working in tulip poplar but burled poplar can be amazing looking, I am trying for some of it next.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spector-Eu...750433?hash=item2ae393f2e1:g:0DsAAOSwOL9eaStG


----------



## JKDJedi

@bcowen Did you ever get a hold of Sylvania's version of the 7236? I think you blasted the Tung Sol for it's bloated bass, you might like the Sylvania 7236, much tighter control across the board. Wondering if you felt the same about it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> @bcowen Did you ever get a hold of Sylvania's version of the 7236? I think you blasted the Tung Sol for it's bloated bass, you might like the Sylvania 7236, much tighter control across the board. Wondering if you felt the same about it.



No, never got the Sylvania version. Just have the Cetron and Tung Sol.  Was looking forward to hearing the Tung Sol 5998, but the Post Office would appear to have lost it. Sent by Priority Mail on the 13th, landed at the distribution center 15 miles from my house on the 15th, and no tracking updates since. Bummed.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> No, never got the Sylvania version. Just have the Cetron and Tung Sol.  Was looking forward to hearing the Tung Sol 5998, but the Post Office would appear to have lost it. Sent by Priority Mail on the 13th, landed at the distribution center 15 miles from my house on the 15th, and no tracking updates since. Bummed.


That happened to me once, I called and let the poor girl have it on the other line, "Your all incompetent"! and so on.. two weeks later I'm sitting in my garage looking at a package that was never opened.... just sitting there... o.O  hope they find it. and hope your not as dense as I am


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody here roll a 1578 on the Darkvoice? Are they really as good as they say they are?


----------



## bcowen

New status on the 5998 in USPS tracking today:  Case closed.  Seeing as how I still haven't received it, I'm guessing that means they've quit looking for it (like they ever did to begin with).  Oh well.  Seller is playing stupid, so I'm turning it over to Ebay to get my money back.  When stuff I buy on Ebay gets lost or damaged and the seller steps right up and makes things right I'm very quick to leave positive feedback for them. When a seller stonewalls or starts spewing the "it's not my fault" routine I'm just as quick to leave negative feedback...right after Ebay refunds my money. 

I do, however, have one _pinnacle_ moment for the week. (groan)   Have only tested a couple of them so far but they look to be NOS and test nicely at NOS levels.  Aural evaluation to follow shortly....


----------



## JKDJedi (May 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> New status on the 5998 in USPS tracking today:  Case closed.  Seeing as how I still haven't received it, I'm guessing that means they've quit looking for it (like they ever did to begin with).  Oh well.  Seller is playing stupid, so I'm turning it over to Ebay to get my money back.  When stuff I buy on Ebay gets lost or damaged and the seller steps right up and makes things right I'm very quick to leave positive feedback for them. When a seller stonewalls or starts spewing the "it's not my fault" routine I'm just as quick to leave negative feedback...right after Ebay refunds my money.
> 
> I do, however, have one _pinnacle_ moment for the week. (groan)   Have only tested a couple of them so far but they look to be NOS and test nicely at NOS levels.  Aural evaluation to follow shortly....


 _*pinnacle*_


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> _*pinnacle*_



LOL!

From Russia With Love. 

Not meant as a negative...seems there are many among us who have a fondness for Melz and Fotons.   Have a pair in the Incubus playing now.  On first listen, typical new Russian tube sound -- recessed and harmonically deprived midrange and a bit aggressive up top.  After all of an hour, both areas improved noticeably, and what else?  That drive and punch and rhythm in the mid and upper bass started to make itself known...one of the qualities I like so much with the Foton 6N8S's.  So I'll let them play and see how they develop.  As of now they sound pretty good. Not stellar or mind-blowing, but perhaps that will change as they settle in. Stay tuned.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> From Russia With Love.
> 
> Not meant as a negative...seems there are many among us who have a fondness for Melz and Fotons.   Have a pair in the Incubus playing now.  On first listen, typical new Russian tube sound -- recessed and harmonically deprived midrange and a bit aggressive up top.  After all of an hour, both areas improved noticeably, and what else?  That drive and punch and rhythm in the mid and upper bass started to make itself known...one of the qualities I like so much with the Foton 6N8S's.  So I'll let them play and see how they develop.  As of now they sound pretty good. Not stellar or mind-blowing, but perhaps that will change as they settle in. Stay tuned.


How many did you buy? If you love them I might want a pair after they are already broken in, I only have so much time to spend on this hobby you know.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> From Russia With Love.
> 
> Not meant as a negative...seems there are many among us who have a fondness for Melz and Fotons.   Have a pair in the Incubus playing now.  On first listen, typical new Russian tube sound -- recessed and harmonically deprived midrange and a bit aggressive up top.  After all of an hour, both areas improved noticeably, and what else?  That drive and punch and rhythm in the mid and upper bass started to make itself known...one of the qualities I like so much with the Foton 6N8S's.  So I'll let them play and see how they develop.  As of now they sound pretty good. Not stellar or mind-blowing, but perhaps that will change as they settle in. Stay tuned.


Same here...can you please break mine in too


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How many did you buy? If you love them I might want a pair after they are already broken in, I only have so much time to spend on this hobby you know.



16.  And my powers of ESP are still a force to be reckoned with. I predicted 2 wouldn't test well, and exactly 2 don't test well. One has low(ish) GM...still well above minimum, but a good bit lower than the others. And one that's blipping the needle on the leakage test. A bit strange that I get an initial blip and then it settles back down, but it does the same thing with repeated tests. May be OK, but why risk it.  If after further break-in I deem these are worthy, I'll send you and @JKDJedi a pair to confirm my aural acuity. LOL!  But broken-in?  Yeah, um, well...NOT.  Your amp(s) work as good as mine for such purposes.    Now, if you can figure out how to wire up my Cable Cooker to break-in tubes, we might could have a further conversation.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 16.  And my powers of ESP are still a force to be reckoned with. I predicted 2 wouldn't test well, and exactly 2 don't test well. One has low(ish) GM...still well above minimum, but a good bit lower than the others. And one that's blipping the needle on the leakage test. A bit strange that I get an initial blip and then it settles back down, but it does the same thing with repeated tests. May be OK, but why risk it.  If after further break-in I deem these are worthy, I'll send you and @JKDJedi a pair to confirm my aural acuity. LOL!  But broken-in?  Yeah, um, well...NOT.  Your amp(s) work as good as mine for such purposes.    Now, if you can figure out how to wire up my Cable Cooker to break-in tubes, we might could have a further conversation.


I suppose I could break them in, if I have to , I guess. Next time I send you an amp though, I am only going to solder some of the connections, you have a soldering iron somewhere, and solder.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I suppose I could break them in, if I have to , I guess. Next time I send you an amp though, I am only going to solder some of the connections, you have a soldering iron somewhere, and solder.



Oh fine then.  But you've seen my tube pin soldering. You sure you're willing to risk your design reputation on *my* soldering abilities?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh fine then.  But you've seen my tube pin soldering. You sure you're willing to risk your design reputation on *my* soldering abilities?


How old are those 6j5’s, I am not familiar with them? 50’s or 60’s?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> How old are those 6j5’s, I am not familiar with them? 50’s or 60’s?


Found a thread mentioning they were the cats meow and @bcowen jumped in with two feet and grabbed a years supply of the stuff, had no idea about them being from Russia. I'm hovering (finger over the mouse button) over a pair of Sylvania NOS military 6j5.... Yes or no?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Found a thread mentioning they were the cats meow and @bcowen jumped in with two feet and grabbed a years supply of the stuff, had no idea about them being from Russia. I'm hovering (finger over the mouse button) over a pair of Sylvania NOS military 6j5.... Yes or no?


I like all Sylvania 6J5's I have heard, these tubes are generally not too expensive. And I read the Pinnacles are 70's Sovtek, boxed and branded in England.


----------



## JKDJedi

My adapter just arrived in CALIFORNIA!!! YES!!!! So Sick!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How old are those 6j5’s, I am not familiar with them? 50’s or 60’s?



Have no idea. Not as old as me, probably.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Found a thread mentioning they were the cats meow and @bcowen jumped in with two feet and grabbed a years supply of the stuff, had no idea about them being from Russia. I'm hovering (finger over the mouse button) over a pair of Sylvania NOS military 6j5.... Yes or no?



Haven't heard any Sylvanias. Have Tung Sol round plates and some Brimars with flat ladder plates. I like the Tung Sols, but haven't given the Brimars a serious listen yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Haven't heard any Sylvanias. Have Tung Sol round plates and some Brimars with flat ladder plates. I like the Tung Sols, but haven't given the Brimars a serious listen yet.


I can't find any of them RP Tung Sols  all they have is flat plates out there), for now anyways. The search continues.. 1944 Sylvanias coming in next week,


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I can't find any of them RP Tung Sols  all they have is flat plates out there), for now anyways. The search continues.. 1944 Sylvanias coming in next week,



I bought them all.  Sorry.  Sort of.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Found a thread mentioning they were the cats meow and @bcowen jumped in with two feet and grabbed a years supply of the stuff, had no idea about them being from Russia. I'm hovering (finger over the mouse button) over a pair of Sylvania NOS military 6j5.... Yes or no?



Just snagged these round plate Sylvanias. Will be interesting to see how they compare to the Tung Sols.  They might have even been made by Tung Sol, who knows.  Guess we'll find out shortly.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just snagged these round plate Sylvanias. Will be interesting to see how they compare to the Tung Sols.  They might have even been made by Tung Sol, who knows.  Guess we'll find out shortly.


They are decent but I have a preference for the black plate version, the Naughty girls as I have dubbed them.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 31, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Just snagged these round plate Sylvanias. Will be interesting to see how they compare to the Tung Sols.  They might have even been made by Tung Sol, who knows.  Guess we'll find out shortly.


Ok I'm confused...those plates look flat save the round hump in the middle. The Tung Sol 6SN7GT Round Plate is literally round, more round than flat. So this whole time I've probably had found the tube!? Argh... 
Think I got the same (sylvania) tube only the flat/round/flat plates are black.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are decent but I have a preference for the black plate version, the Naughty girls as I have dubbed them.



Do the Naughty Girls have round plates or the flat ladder plates?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Do the Naughty Girls have round plates or the flat ladder plates?


They are the opposite of whatever you end up buying.  Three hole ladder plates is the correct answer though.


----------



## bcowen (May 31, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Ok I'm confused...those plates look flat save the round hump in the middle. The Tung Sol 6SN7GT Round Plate is literally round, more round than flat. So this whole time I've probably had found the tube!? Argh...
> Think I got the same (sylvania) tube only the flat/round/flat plates are black.



Well technically the 'round' plates are more oval than round (as in a full circle). Just always referred to as round plates.  I can't tell for sure from the angle in your photo, but the one in the middle looks like a round plate.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are the opposite of whatever you end up buying.



ROFL!  Considering the extensive stash of GE's you have, we'll take that into context.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Considering the extensive stash of GE's you have, we'll take that into context.


It is better to own those tubes than some of their stock right now, I tried that and watched it go from mediocre to worse lol.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 31, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well technically the 'round' plates are more oval than round (as in a full circle). Just always referred to as round plates.  I can't tell for sure from the angle in your photo, but the one in the middle looks like a round plate.


I missed that, I thought it might have been the angle of the photograph but it is round.. well now I'm not sure what I'm getting lol. Ok, so if it had a hump it's considered round? I for a long time thought the t shaped plates on Sylvania tubes like the bad boys were round until I saw the description of t plates on them. So when I hear the term round plates this is what's in my head



It seems like round plates can be used broadly to describe a tube. Not trying to be a stickler here, still learning.

The Sylvania plates (that you just got) look nothing like the Tung Sols photo here. They're flat with a hump in the middle. Is there another term to call this kind of plate or is my assumption that round plates is a broad term correct?

EDIT: After studying the photos I see the TungSol is divided into two round plates, the Sylvania you just got is one plate... and totally forgot that these (6J5G) are single triode tubes...my bad!!! (I'm an idiot) I get it now..

I hear, I know. I see, I remember. I do, I understand.  -Confucius

Edit2: Found one.. need two to be true 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233502894361?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I missed that, I thought it might have been the angle of the photograph but it is round.. well now I'm not sure what I'm getting lol. Ok, so if it had a hump it's considered round? I for a long time thought the t shaped plates on Sylvania tubes like the bad boys were round until I saw the description of t plates on them. So when I hear the term round plates this is what's in my head
> 
> 
> It seems like round plates can be used broadly to describe a tube. Not trying to be a stickler here, still learning.
> ...



What you have pictured are 6SL7's.  Most 6SL7's have round plates.  But the descriptor of "round plate" is a bit of a misnomer -- they are really more as you have aptly described as a flat plate with a hump in the middle.    Flat plates have a raised section in the center as well, but it is flat across its width, rather than round or circular like the "round plate."  Flat plates that have ridges in them (like the Pinnacle below) are referred to as flat ladder plates, the ridges being the rungs of the ladder, if you will.  Round plates (or at least what are referred to as round plates) have a semicircular shape in the center of the flat part, thus the descriptor. Perhaps the photos below will help a little.  The Ebay link you posted above is a round plate, so if you have one that matches up to that, you're good.  If not, I'll try and keep my finger off the "Buy It Now" button until you get one. LOL! 

One thing that is important though with the 6J5's (or 7A4's -- the loctal base version) is that they have reasonably close GM output, or you can end up with some channel imbalance. Important too in a double triode like a 6SN7, just that with any dual triode as long as the triodes matched decently to begin with they will age at the same rate and are unlikely to acquire an imbalance as they wear -- the GM for each triode should decrease (relatively) equally over time. If you're getting one 6J5 from one source and another from a different source, the chances of a GM mismatch increase.  Better to try and get a pair from the same source...no guarantee that way either, but less risk.  

TungSol 6J5 round plate:





Pinnacle 6J5 with flat ladder plate:





Pinnacle on the left, Tung Sol on the right:


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> What you have pictured are 6SL7's.  Most 6SL7's have round plates.  But the descriptor of "round plate" is a bit of a misnomer -- they are really more as you have aptly described as a flat plate with a hump in the middle.    Flat plates have a raised section in the center as well, but it is flat across its width, rather than round or circular like the "round plate."  Flat plates that have ridges in them (like the Pinnacle below) are referred to as flat ladder plates, the ridges being the rungs of the ladder, if you will.  Round plates (or at least what are referred to as round plates) have a semicircular shape in the center of the flat part, thus the descriptor. Perhaps the photos below will help a little.  The Ebay link you posted above is a round plate, so if you have one that matches up to that, you're good.  If not, I'll try and keep my finger off the "Buy It Now" button until you get one. LOL!
> 
> One thing that is important though with the 6J5's (or 7A4's -- the loctal base version) is that they have reasonably close GM output, or you can end up with some channel imbalance. Important too in a double triode like a 6SN7, just that with any dual triode as long as the triodes matched decently to begin with they will age at the same rate and are unlikely to acquire an imbalance as they wear -- the GM for each triode should decrease (relatively) equally over time. If you're getting one 6J5 from one source and another from a different source, the chances of a GM mismatch increase.  Better to try and get a pair from the same source...no guarantee that way either, but less risk.
> 
> ...


Thanks @bcowen I didn't grab that one link, makes sense to go for a pair. I'm following a ladder plate pair (Tung Sols) but most likely won't grab them. Just realized I did that buy buy buy bad habit thing again ..need to hit the pause button. (said no one)


----------



## JackSkully

Hi everyone I'm new to tube rolling and just got a dark voice 336se and I'm not really sure what kind of tubes the dark voice uses. 

what tubes fit with the dark voice.

Also I'm not sure which one is the driver tube and the power tube but from my guess it's the driver tube in the front and power tube in the back. Am I correct??

Also I was thinking about getting these two as driver tubes will they work??

http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-cv181-t-mkii-premium-grade

http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=474

And well I don't know any good power tubes so can anyone post what different types of tubes fit for power tubes 
Money isn't an issue really trying to get the best ones I can.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 1, 2020)

JackSkully said:


> Hi everyone I'm new to tube rolling and just got a dark voice 336se and I'm not really sure what kind of tubes the dark voice uses.
> 
> what tubes fit with the dark voice.
> 
> ...


Your guess is correct, power back and driver/preamp tube front. The first link you posted is an upgrade from the 2nd link, those will work

Driver/preamp tubes;


6CG7  6N7G 6N7W ECC31 cv181
7N7 6F8G 6C8G with Adapters
6SN7 6N8S ECC32  CV1986 1578 

Most use 6SN7 6SN7GTB 6SN7GT 6SN7W

Few of here are trying the dual adapter set up of 6J5g and so on,



Power Tubes:
5692 6AS7G 6080 5998 6N5P 6N5S ECC230 7236 CV2523 421a


----------



## JKDJedi

I got the 5998 to let my 421a rest, and then I get an RCA to let my 5998 rest...whats wrong with me  

Out for that rare spin today... (With RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass) Listening to anti riot playlist     What's going On -Marvin Gaye


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 2, 2020)

The company Admiral seems to have a few tubes out there made for them by Tung Sol and Sylvania. I'm listening to a 1952 Sylvania made Admiral 6SN7GT (staggered plate) right now, these are really good for the monies. you can find these listed $15 a pair sometimes. i didn't know Tung Sol made tubes for them until THIS---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Admiral-6SN7GT-Black-Plate-Vacuum-Tube-Tested-Good/263801811405?_trkparms=aid=1110001&algo=SPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=225085&meid=7bf5fca04bac4913a2a4caf8507c83d0&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=124056481488&itm=263801811405&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

this is the Sylvania made tube I'm currently rolling with the 6080 Mullard... sweet mix! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-19...481488?hash=item1ce257aed0:g:rQ0AAOSwctxeJ68b

Sounds great on the Beyerdynamic.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Strong-A...YgAAOSwhBFeEhWj:sc:USPSFirstClass!92236!US!-1

So to enter stores now, do I need a face mask or a brick?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The company Admiral seems to have a few tubes out there made for them by Tung Sol and Sylvania. I'm listening to a 1952 Sylvania made Admiral 6SN7GT (staggered plate) right now, these are really good for the monies. you can find these listed $15 a pair sometimes. i didn't know Tung Sol made tubes for them until THIS---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Admiral-6SN7GT-Black-Plate-Vacuum-Tube-Tested-Good/263801811405?_trkparms=aid=1110001&algo=SPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=225085&meid=7bf5fca04bac4913a2a4caf8507c83d0&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=124056481488&itm=263801811405&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
> 
> this is the Sylvania made tube I'm currently rolling with the 6080 Mullard... sweet mix! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-19...481488?hash=item1ce257aed0:g:rQ0AAOSwctxeJ68b
> 
> ...


I have a black glass Admiral that is pretty impressive, you need a book like Tube Lore so you can track down who made what. I also have RCA and Sylvania manuals from the 30's and 40's up till maybe the mid seventies.They help as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have a black glass Admiral that is pretty impressive, you need a book like Tube Lore so you can track down who made what. I also have RCA and Sylvania manuals from the 30's and 40's up till maybe the mid seventies.They help as well.


My mind blew when I saw the Mouse Ears....I was like WHAT!?  I'll look for that book, there's some hidden gems out there. Black Glass Admiral... another( In Search Of ) series...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> My mind blew when I saw the Mouse Ears....I was like WHAT!?  I'll look for that book, there's some hidden gems out there. Black Glass Admiral... another( In Search Of ) series...


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


>


National Union? Bet you stole that bad boy. Nice!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> National Union? Bet you stole that bad boy. Nice!


That could be an NU I honestly forget but I should be able to research it tomorrow. I have had it a couple years and I do like the sound.

It does have the 247 code of National Union/Lansdale  from 1939 it appears.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That could be an NU I honestly forget but I should be able to research it tomorrow. I have had it a couple years and I do like the sound.
> 
> It does have the 247 code of National Union/Lansdale  from 1939 it appears.


National Union have their own sweet sound signature. Nice grab.


----------



## JKDJedi

TGIF!! Just in.. 1951 (Bad Boy?) Sylvania 6SN7GT and a pair of JAN CHS 6J5GT


----------



## wwmhf

Lucky!


----------



## JKDJedi

wwmhf said:


> Lucky!


Thanks, quick comparison to the last roll (Admiral 6SN7GT) is a warmer tone. The Admiral with the 6080 is a great mix, 6080 with Sylvania 6SN7GT, not my cup of tea. Have an idea which tube will pair well with this guy.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> TGIF!! Just in.. 1951 (Bad Boy?) Sylvania 6SN7GT and a pair of JAN CHS 6J5GT



Sweet!  Did your 6J5 adapter make it through the shipping gauntlet yet?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, quick comparison to the last roll (Admiral 6SN7GT) is a warmer tone. The Admiral with the 6080 is a great mix, 6080 with Sylvania 6SN7GT, not my cup of tea. Have an idea which tube will pair well with this guy.



You need a Cetron 7236 to go with that Bad Boy.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Did your 6J5 adapter make it through the shipping gauntlet yet?


Not in yet ... It's literally 1hr 16mn away from me... So hopefully tomorrow!!


----------



## johanchandy (Jun 6, 2020)

@JKDJedi I wanted to thank you for all the help with choosing tubes. Especially the sylvania gold-brand 6080, god what a tube, I find it nicer than the black plate Rca jan 6as7 tubes I got, more coherent and silkier (the rca also sounds a tad hotter/harsher in the treble). For the 6sn7 tube I find I like the Shuguang Treasure Cv181-z tube slightly more than the sylvania 6sn7gt (1953)(but both super close in enjoyment), I find the Shuguang to be an amazing combination with the goldbrand 6080 but I'm running the Sylvania 6sn7gt instead because I hate how the amp looks with a larger tube in the front. All in all I'm super happy!


----------



## SHIMACM

Speaking of CETRON, look what a price. Too bad it doesn't ship to Brazil.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CETRON-723...913167?hash=item48e6540c4f:g:yPYAAOSwab5e1GiZ


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Speaking of CETRON, look what a price. Too bad it doesn't ship to Brazil.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CETRON-723...913167?hash=item48e6540c4f:g:yPYAAOSwab5e1GiZ



I thought I got a good deal on those at $24.95.  NOS tube prices are supposed to go UP, not down. Perhaps I need to rethink my retirement strategy.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 6, 2020)

johanchandy said:


> @JKDJedi I wanted to thank you for all the help with choosing tubes. Especially the sylvania gold-brand 6080, god what a tube, I find it nicer than the black plate Rca jan 6as7 tubes I got, more coherent and silkier (the rca also sounds a tad hotter/harsher in the treble). For the 6sn7 tube I find I like the Shuguang Treasure Cv181-z tube slightly more than the sylvania 6sn7gt (1953)(but both super close in enjoyment), I find the Shuguang to be an amazing combination with the goldbrand 6080 but I'm running the Sylvania 6sn7gt instead because I hate how the amp looks with a larger tube in the front. All in all I'm super happy!



Don't have a Sylvania gold 6080...yet.  Have a Chatham 6080 that's supposed to arrive today assuming the Post Office doesn't lose it like they did the TS 5998 that was supposed to be here 3 weeks ago.  

Have you tried an RCA 6AS7GA?  The GA has a straight bottle versus the ST-shape bottle of the 6AS7G.  The GA sounds quite a bit better to my ears than the G, and can still be found for decent prices. But it's roughly the same size as a 6080, so won't help with the aesthetic sizing issue. 

Edit:  Crap. Spoke too soon.  The Chatham 6080 is in the black hole of the Charlotte distribution center (15 miles from my house). That's where the TS 5998 got sucked into the vortex never to be seen again, and the 6080 will likely suffer the same fate.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> TGIF!! Just in.. 1951 (Bad Boy?) Sylvania 6SN7GT and a pair of JAN CHS 6J5GT


That is the really nice version of the 6j5 you have there I do believe. It appears to be a three hold black plate very similar to the Bad Boy perhaps?  That is the version I have termed the Naughty Girl and they do sound quite good IMHO, rich mids, plenty of bass, and separation to die for.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I thought I got a good deal on those at $24.95.  NOS tube prices are supposed to go UP, not down. Perhaps I need to rethink my retirement strategy.


Thanks for the link, and being in the next state over from Illinois I will have that tube pretty quickly.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Speaking of CETRON, look what a price. Too bad it doesn't ship to Brazil.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CETRON-723...913167?hash=item48e6540c4f:g:yPYAAOSwab5e1GiZ





bcowen said:


> I thought I got a good deal on those at $24.95.  NOS tube prices are supposed to go UP, not down. Perhaps I need to rethink my retirement strategy.





bcowen said:


> Don't have a Sylvania gold 6080...yet.  Have a Chatham 6080 that's supposed to arrive today assuming the Post Office doesn't lose it like they did the TS 5998 that was supposed to be here 3 weeks ago.
> 
> Have you tried an RCA 6AS7GA?  The GA has a straight bottle versus the ST-shape bottle of the 6AS7G.  The GA sounds quite a bit better to my ears than the G, and can still be found for decent prices. But it's roughly the same size as a 6080, so won't help with the aesthetic sizing issue.
> 
> Edit:  Crap. Spoke too soon.  The Chatham 6080 is in the black hole of the Charlotte distribution center (15 miles from my house). That's where the TS 5998 got sucked into the vortex never to be seen again, and the 6080 will likely suffer the same fate.





Paladin79 said:


> That is the really nice version of the 6j5 you have there I do believe. It appears to be a three hold black plate very similar to the Bad Boy perhaps?  That is the version I have termed the Naughty Girl and they do sound quite good IMHO, rich mids, plenty of bass, and separation to die for.





Paladin79 said:


> Thanks for the link, and being in the next state over from Illinois I will have that tube pretty quickly.


I saw that link and am tempted the same.. just to have it as a collector. And because @bcowen said it's the cat's meow. Thanks @Paladin79 I was hoping they we're the Naughty Girls. You described them well so my search was easy. Hoping the adapter arrives today, might be at Charlotte somewhere with @bcowen 5998!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks for the link, and being in the next state over from Illinois I will have that tube pretty quickly.



Credit where it's due:  @SHIMACM provided that link.  I got mine from another seller who seemed to have a major quantity -- IIRC, his ad showed something like 49 sold and "more than 10 available" when I bought my small stash, but his ad is gone now.  May not be the cat's meow for you, but at that price it's certainly worth having a couple IMO.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I saw that link and am tempted the same.. just to have it as a collector. And because @bcowen said it's the cat's meow. Thanks @Paladin79 I was hoping they we're the Naughty Girls. You described them well so my search was easy. Hoping the adapter arrives today, might be at Charlotte somewhere with @bcowen 5998!



I sure hope your adapter isn't in Charlotte.  But if this continues much longer, it's going to be time for a midnight raid on that distribution center because they must have a Saudi Arabian fortune of "lost' stuff piled up there.  

More seriously, I just wonder when the USPS is going to do something about that place. I've filed complaints as well as a good number of my neighbors. And the USPS wants funds from the Feds to keep operating?  Maybe an injection of competence would be more worthwhile than money.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I sure hope your adapter isn't in Charlotte.  But if this continues much longer, it's going to be time for a midnight raid on that distribution center because they must have a Saudi Arabian fortune of "lost' stuff piled up there.
> 
> More seriously, I just wonder when the USPS is going to do something about that place. I've filed complaints as well as a good number of my neighbors. And the USPS wants funds from the Feds to keep operating?  Maybe an injection of competence would be more worthwhile than money.


Might be worthwhile to consider an alternate shipment company like Fed Ex or Brown until they get their act together.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I sure hope your adapter isn't in Charlotte.  But if this continues much longer, it's going to be time for a midnight raid on that distribution center because they must have a Saudi Arabian fortune of "lost' stuff piled up there.
> 
> More seriously, I just wonder when the USPS is going to do something about that place. I've filed complaints as well as a good number of my neighbors. And the USPS wants funds from the Feds to keep operating?  Maybe an injection of competence would be more worthwhile than money.


I have good luck with USPS, even shipments from Russia, but I do not buy in the volume of an @bcowen I am sure. I am but a mortal man, whereas in the world of tubes, Bill is more of a prince among men.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have good luck with USPS, even shipments from Russia, but I do not buy in the volume of an @bcowen I am sure. I am but a mortal man, whereas in the world of tubes, Bill is more of a prince among men.



LOL!  I say this half-jokingly (but only half), I'm wondering if there isn't an audiophile or tubehead that works at this distribution hub that is amassing a nice collection.  I use the "Informed Delivery" feature that allows you to add a name/label to a tracking number once it's posted in the system. First thing that disappeared once it hit this hub?  A quad of '51 Fotons that I labeled as (duh) '51 Foton 6N8S'.  Then the 5998 that I labeled as TungSol 5998.  We'll have to see what happens with the one that is late now that I labeled as 'Chatham 6080.'  It hit the hub on 6/4 and should have delivered yesterday.

Perhaps I'll ship myself an empty box insured for $2k and label it as "NOS quad Western Electric 421A's" and see if it disappears in Charlotte as well.  Then I'll have money to actually buy a quad, and just make sure they are shipped FedEx.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I say this half-jokingly (but only half), I'm wondering if there isn't an audiophile or tubehead that works at this distribution hub that is amassing a nice collection.  I use the "Informed Delivery" feature that allows you to add a name/label to a tracking number once it's posted in the system. First thing that disappeared once it hit this hub?  A quad of '51 Fotons that I labeled as (duh) '51 Foton 6N8S'.  Then the 5998 that I labeled as TungSol 5998.  We'll have to see what happens with the one that is late now that I labeled as 'Chatham 6080.'  It hit the hub on 6/4 and should have delivered yesterday.
> 
> Perhaps I'll ship myself an empty box insured for $2k and label it as "NOS quad Western Electric 421A's" and see if it disappears in Charlotte as well.  Then I'll have money to actually buy a quad, and just make sure they are shipped FedEx.


Lol... Not a bad idea.


----------



## JKDJedi

Not a Cetron, but the Tung Sol 7236 playing nice with Da Baddy. Just finished my yardwork, wishing I had a beer right now


----------



## JKDJedi

Huge thanks to @bcowen for the Pinnacles they are in pristine condition, and for testing the Tung Sols. The adapter (if not in Charlotte) will be here Monday?  See ya guys then.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Huge thanks to @bcowen for the Pinnacles they are in pristine condition, and for testing the Tung Sols. The adapter (if not in Charlotte) will be here Monday?  See ya guys then.



Man, you _gotta_ get a camera that does color.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Man, you _gotta_ get a camera that does color.


I got no tubes!!! I believe Bill was going to send some my way lol. Maybe he is burning mine in?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Man, you _gotta_ get a camera that does color.





Paladin79 said:


> I got no tubes!!! I believe Bill was going to send some my way lol. Maybe he is burning mine in?


Did I get someone else's tubes 😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I got no tubes!!! I believe Bill was going to send some my way lol. Maybe he is burning mine in?



LOL!  Shipped on the same day.  How a box gets all the way across the country faster than one gets halfway across the country is only logical in the altered reality of the USPS.  On the plus side, yours have safely made it out of Charlotte so it's all downhill from here.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Did I get someone else's tubes 😂😂


Wait you are in California no less!!!!! Bill is really late with mine so I need to figure out a suitable punishment. Here I called him a prince earlier too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Shipped on the same day.  How a box gets all the way across the country faster than one gets halfway across the country is only logical in the altered reality of the USPS.  On the plus side, yours have safely made it out of Charlotte so it's all downhill from here.


They best get here soon, Finnegan is running out of cat toys and he keeps eyeing some TS 5998’s. I was considering building a VU meter box for Bill one day and now it looks like Ripper may deserve one instead.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was considering building a VU meter box for Bill one day and now it looks like Ripper may deserve one instead.



Damn!  That's harsh.  Where's the dog...I need to kick something.  

Fine.  I won't tell you about these 1945 black round plate Sylvie 6J5's then.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Damn!  That's harsh.  Where's the dog...I need to kick something.
> 
> Fine.  I won't tell you about these 1945 black round plate Sylvie 6J5's then.


Too late Finnegan is already bummed out, I may have to let him chew on the schematic for your amp. Now if I have a pair of those on the way for my amp, it is a start.


----------



## johanchandy

bcowen said:


> Don't have a Sylvania gold 6080...yet.  Have a Chatham 6080 that's supposed to arrive today assuming the Post Office doesn't lose it like they did the TS 5998 that was supposed to be here 3 weeks ago.
> 
> Have you tried an RCA 6AS7GA?  The GA has a straight bottle versus the ST-shape bottle of the 6AS7G.  The GA sounds quite a bit better to my ears than the G, and can still be found for decent prices. But it's roughly the same size as a 6080, so won't help with the aesthetic sizing issue.
> 
> Edit:  Crap. Spoke too soon.  The Chatham 6080 is in the black hole of the Charlotte distribution center (15 miles from my house). That's where the TS 5998 got sucked into the vortex never to be seen again, and the 6080 will likely suffer the same fate.


Haven't tried the RCA 6AS7GA, darn another tube for me to buy, this is getting expensive lol. 
Sad to hear they have been losing your packages, hope they were just super delayed, I've thought I've lost quite a few packages that have turned up months later,damn you covid


----------



## JKDJedi

johanchandy said:


> Haven't tried the RCA 6AS7GA, darn another tube for me to buy, this is getting expensive lol.
> Sad to hear they have been losing your packages, hope they were just super delayed, I've thought I've lost quite a few packages that have turned up months later,damn you covid


Same boat, turns out my China package has been stuck an hour away from me for a whole week...lol... I'm tempted to just go and pick it up!


----------



## johanchandy

JKDJedi said:


> Same boat, turns out my China package has been stuck an hour away from me for a whole week...lol... I'm tempted to just go and pick it up!


That has to be the worst! I would hate to know a package is stuck somewhere so close, I think that would be worse than the knowledge of a package still being oversees lol


----------



## SHIMACM

johanchandy said:


> Haven't tried the RCA 6AS7GA, darn another tube for me to buy, this is getting expensive lol.
> Sad to hear they have been losing your packages, hope they were just super delayed, I've thought I've lost quite a few packages that have turned up months later,damn you covid



I already had another impression of the GE 6as7ga. I found RCA 6as7g a little more cohesive and musical than GE. Of course, I say this taking into account that my headset is the T1. I have three RCA's. 1 from 1970, another from 1961 and another from 1962. Even between them I noticed a difference in the sound. I found the one made in 1970 a little better. The other two found them a little brighter. Apparently they are almost identical. The one made in 1970 has a slightly taller body. I don't know if that has anything to do with the difference in sound.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I already had another impression of the GE 6as7ga. I found RCA 6as7g a little more cohesive and musical than GE. Of course, I say this taking into account that my headset is the T1. I have three RCA's. 1 from 1970, another from 1961 and another from 1962. Even between them I noticed a difference in the sound. I found the one made in 1970 a little better. The other two found them a little brighter. Apparently they are almost identical. The one made in 1970 has a slightly taller body. I don't know if that has anything to do with the difference in sound.



Was your GE 6AS7GA actually made by GE (little dots etched in the glass)? Just curious.  My (personal) disdain for GE tubes is no secret, but there are lots of GE _labeled_ tubes out there that were made by someone else and can be relative bargains.


----------



## bcowen

johanchandy said:


> That has to be the worst! I would hate to know a package is stuck somewhere so close, I think that would be worse than the knowledge of a package still being oversees lol



Oh happy day! The 6080 has actually checked out of the Hotel Charlotte. The TS 5998 checked in there, but could never leave.


----------



## JackSkully

Hey guys need suggestions for power tubes for the DV336se.  Preferable short tubes since the driver tube I ordered is huge and I can't fit two huge tubes together


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Was your GE 6AS7GA actually made by GE (little dots etched in the glass)? Just curious.  My (personal) disdain for GE tubes is no secret, but there are lots of GE _labeled_ tubes out there that were made by someone else and can be relative bargains.



Well, mine is the ones in the pictures below.


----------



## SHIMACM

JackSkully said:


> Hey guys need suggestions for power tubes for the DV336se.  Preferable short tubes since the driver tube I ordered is huge and I can't fit two huge tubes together



I did not understand. How can you not fit? Short force tubes, some good ones are: Mullard 6080, Tung-Sol 7236 and Cetron 7236, at least they are the ones that come to mind now.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Well, mine is the ones in the pictures below.



That is a GE-manufactured tube as it has the etched dots:


----------



## JKDJedi

JackSkully said:


> Hey guys need suggestions for power tubes for the DV336se.  Preferable short tubes since the driver tube I ordered is huge and I can't fit two huge tubes together


What could possibly be that huge in the front?....no wait, let me rephrase that 🤣
What did you get that's so huge in the front?

Wait, what tube did you get?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> What could possibly be that huge in the front?....no wait, let me rephrase that 🤣



ROFL!



JKDJedi said:


> Wait, what tube did you get?



Must have been one of these:


----------



## JKDJedi

It's crazy how every Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse eared tube that I've encountered has this crack at the base. Is it a character of this tube (or what), specifically to this tube. I've finally come to terms and believe that every single mouse eared Tung Sol has this crack! Ok rant done, I posted this ebay listing up a few posts back(Admiral) and, well, couldn't pass it up, Carbon copy to the Zenith. (Thinking they're a year apart from the date codes 322044 & 322032) (and yes same crack on the Zenith) And mostly cosmetic, I get that.


----------



## DenverW

Jared S said:


> Its a tungsol 7236. Its also paired with a hytron 5692 brown base.



You may also try to pair that 7236 tube with a warmer driver tube, such as a Ken rad or perhaps a national union grey glass.  Something to help the bass and impact, but retaining the clarity of the 7236.

For power tubes there are some pricy upgrades, such as the tung sol 5998 or western union 421a.  A lot of times it’s about how the tubes work together instead of how great an individual tube is.  Affordable but good power tubes imho are the tung sol 6as7g and 6080, the rca 6as7g...perhaps some others.  The tung sol 6as7g might pair well with your hytron.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> It's crazy how every Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse eared tube that I've encountered has this crack at the base. Is it a character of this tube (or what), specifically to this tube. I've finally come to terms and believe that every single mouse eared Tung Sol has this crack! Ok rant done, I posted this ebay listing up a few posts back(Admiral) and, well, couldn't pass it up, Carbon copy to the Zenith. (Thinking they're a year apart from the date codes 322044 & 322032) (and yes same crack on the Zenith) And mostly cosmetic, I get that.




To tell you the truth - the sellers keep all good ones to hoard and sell only cracked ones...LOL...just kidding.

I believe the material TS used for its mouse ears base was crap. Too common a problem for this tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

My RCA 6sn7gt vt231 arrived.  What a good tube!  Compared to Ken Rad vt231 I realized that he is better in the high and middle region.  Ken Rad is a little better at bass.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> My RCA 6sn7gt vt231 arrived.  What a good tube!  Compared to Ken Rad vt231 I realized that he is better in the high and middle region.  Ken Rad is a little better at bass.


I love it when the include the original box, excellent find. RCA do have their own high and mid range sound. I have a coup;e of the consumer grade RCA and would love to have the VT231 version of this tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I love it when the include the original box, excellent find. RCA do have their own high and mid range sound. I have a coup;e of the consumer grade RCA and would love to have the VT231 version of this tube.



That was a finding. I won at an auction with virtually no competitors.


----------



## DenverW

Expensive, but getting more and more rare so I assume the price will continue to rise as these disappear.  I haven't heard the GEC 6as7g curved base but I do have a straight brown base, and this tube is better.  Best power tube I've heard.  Is it worth it compared to other tubes?  Well, if you have the money, yes.  If this stretches you, a 5998 is probably 80-90% of these (using the precise mathematical forumula called, "best guess!") but even those are 150+ now.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-chanc...520105?hash=item3da4d66929:g:S20AAOSwt0pe3vxc


----------



## cddc

Have you compared GEC 6AS7G to WE 421A, @DenverW ?

I heard lots of people favor the GEC 6AS7G, but also some people prefer the WE 421A.


----------



## DenverW (Jun 9, 2020)

I found the 421a to be clearer and more revealing.  This is compared to the straight brown base gec 6as7g.  Due to less clarity the gec feel smoother, but I did prefer the 421a in pretty much each area when using my Hd800.  Base had similar quantity but was more controlled, and the treble was more extended and defined.

The 421a was the one power tube where I knew right away there was a difference.  Trying lots of power tubes I liked some more than others, but with this one I could tell right away that I preferred it to the rest.


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> I found the 421a to be clearer and more revealing.  This is compared to the straight brown base gec 6as7g.  Due to less clarity the gec feel smoother, but I did prefer the 421a in pretty much each area when using my Hd800.  Base had similar quantity but was more controlled, and the treble was more extended and defined.
> 
> The 421a was the one power tube where I knew right away there was a difference.  Trying lots of power tubes I liked some more than others, but with this one I could tell right away that I preferred it to the rest.



Have you compared it to Chatham 6as7g?


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> Have you compared it to Chatham 6as7g?



I had a tung sol 6as7g, which is one of my favorite affordable power tubes.  Liked it, but it falls behind the gec and 421a in bass quanity and overall clarity.  The upper end power tubes have a whole extra layer to them.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I had a tung sol 6as7g, which is one of my favorite affordable power tubes.  Liked it, but it falls behind the gec and 421a in bass quanity and overall clarity.  The upper end power tubes have a whole extra layer to them.


I'd have to confirm this with @DenverW 421a is a special tube. Will bring life to tubes you don't favor and can push lower impedance headphones well. Is it worth the Xtra $$$ well, depends on the individual I guess. This tube I s clearly above any power tube I own, including the 5998. Just another level.


----------



## SHIMACM

I read a user's comment on another topic saying that the Melz 1578 is one level above the Vts 231 tubes. However, it does not have Darkvoice. Do you agree with that impression on Darkvoice?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I read a user's comment on another topic saying that the Melz 1578 is one level above the Vts 231 tubes. However, it does not have Darkvoice. Do you agree with that impression on Darkvoice?


I'd need some time with the Melz, which should be arriving tomorrow hopefully. and that's saying a lot about the Melz, there's a lot of very good VT231 out there, a lot.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'd need some time with the Melz, which should be arriving tomorrow hopefully. and that's saying a lot about the Melz, there's a lot of very good VT231 out there, a lot.



When Melz arrives, I would be grateful to know how he behaves against Ken Rad vt 231.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> When Melz arrives, I would be grateful to know how he behaves against Ken Rad vt 231.


will do!


----------



## DenverW

Which melz?  Ive seen flat plates and ones with circular holes down the plates.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 9, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Which melz?  Ive seen flat plates and ones with circular holes down the plates.


1578- rods with the holes down the middle. Not plates. Hopefully I can date the tube. I'll compare this with the Fotons (6N8S)the same. For a tenth of the price of the Melz you can get a pair of these Fotons (https://www.ebay.com/itm/202590547536 ) curious how this plays out.
You can find imitation Melz out there for cheap, I'm certain I got the Real Deal Holyfield, and not an imitation.


----------



## DenverW

Yep, those were the ones I was thinking of.  I’m also curious how they play out.


----------



## SHIMACM

I'm about to say that RCA vt231 sounds better to my ears than Ken Rad Vt231. My new favorite. Hoping to get Raytheon Vt231 to see how it behaves against KR and RCA.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I'm about to say that RCA vt231 sounds better to my ears than Ken Rad Vt231. My new favorite. Hoping to get Raytheon Vt231 to see how it behaves against KR and RCA.


Don't take the one I'm looking at 😁🙃😉


----------



## SHIMACM

Forgive me English. I already bought Raytheon Vt231, but it hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143618759363
Mouse ears for $3 !? Untested, might be worth the gamble.


----------



## SHIMACM

Adding: I bought it three weeks ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Adding: I bought it three weeks ago.


You sure it wasn't 4 weeks ago? 🤣


----------



## SHIMACM

No. Three. It was on 5/19. Lol


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> No. Three. It was on 5/19. Lol


Just messing/joking with you, can't wait to hear what you think about the RAytheon. Nice grab.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> I'm about to say that RCA vt231 sounds better to my ears than Ken Rad Vt231. My new favorite. Hoping to get Raytheon Vt231 to see how it behaves against KR and RCA.



Is your RCA VT231 a gray glass?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 10, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Is your RCA VT231 a gray glass?


I think it is, pic posted at  #3419


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "Slade01, postagem: 15669395, membro: 513717"]
O seu RCA VT231 é um vidro cinza?
[/CITAR]

Yes


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "Slade01, postagem: 15669395, membro: 513717"]
> O seu RCA VT231 é um vidro cinza?
> [/CITAR]
> 
> Yes



My RCA Gray Glass continues to be a top favorite daily driver.  It certainly gets the most use.  I also am interested when you compare to the Raytheon VT231.  I have never tried that one, but was always curious about it.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I think it is, pic posted at  #3419



Gotcha.  I see now.  It was overpowered by your previous posts with all the the cracked (base) tung-sol mouse ears.  It must be some curse...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Gotcha.  I see now.  It was overpowered by your previous posts with all the the cracked (base) tung-sol mouse ears.  It must be some curse...


I'm starting to believe they're all like that. And if I get that $3 tube (link posted above)... probably no crack! 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm starting to believe they're all like that. And if I get that $3 tube (link posted above)... probably no crack! 🤣🤣



Well, it's gone.  Let us know if it's cracked when you get it.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, it's gone.  Let us know if it's cracked when you get it.


LOL... Wasn't me.... honest!


----------



## bcowen (Jun 10, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> LOL... Wasn't me.... honest!



Sure.  We all believe you.  Kinda.  

I'm no expert on Bad Boys (and totally ignorant on Fat Boys LOL!) but this looks pretty close.  EIA code is right for Sylvania. Not sure if Bad Boys went into 1953 though.  Pretty cheap if it's for real.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-6...brand=Motorola&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> LOL... Wasn't me.... honest!



Really?  What a shame.  Mouse ears for 6 bucks.  That was a steal of a deal!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 10, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Sure.  We all believe you.  Kinda.
> 
> I'm no expert on Bad Boys (and totally ignorant on Fat Boys LOL!) but this looks pretty close.  EIA code is right for Sylvania. Not sure if Bad Boys went into 1953 though.  Pretty cheap if it's for real.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-6SN7GT-audio-vacuum-tube-Fat-Boy-3-hole-tested-NOS/392774681166?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200423103423&meid=267afe2d0fde42ddbff52acc9d31bc70&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=143618759363&itm=392774681166&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Motorola&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850


Motorola just stealing everyone's thunder lately!! Sure does look like a Bad Boy. Have the Motorola (Sylvania black plate) But this one... If nobody grabs it by tomorrow...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Really?  What a shame.  Mouse ears for 6 bucks.  That was a steal of a deal!


I should've jumped on it but already have half a dozen tubes coming in... I have a problem 😔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I should've jumped on it but already have half a dozen tubes coming in... I have a problem 😔



Sounds like it's time to renew the charter on Tubeaholics Anonymous.  You and @Ripper2860 can be co-chairmen, and @Paladin79 can be the treasurer.  Not that he needs to supply the funds, he just needs to cook keep the books.  

Wait...co-chairmen will lead to co-nflicts.  You be chairman, and @Ripper2860 can be the janitor.  We'd have to give him a pre-employment test to see if he has the requisite skills though.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sounds like it's time to renew the charter on Tubeaholics Anonymous.  You and @Ripper2860 can be co-chairmen, and @Paladin79 can be the treasurer.  Not that he needs to supply the funds, he just needs to cook keep the books.
> 
> Wait...co-chairmen will lead to co-nflicts.  You be chairman, and @Ripper2860 can be the janitor.  We'd have to give him a pre-employment test to see if he has the requisite skills though.


----------



## JKDJedi

O M G... maybe i'm just tired from my workout...but.. this RCA6as7g with the Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt...                                                                M I N D           B L O W N...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> O M G... maybe i'm just tired from my workout...but.. this RCA6as7g with the Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt...                                                                M I N D           B L O W N...


Those are two very good tubes and not overly expensive. I often pair the RCA with various 6sn7's.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> O M G... maybe i'm just tired from my workout...but.. this RCA6as7g with the Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt...                                                                M I N D           B L O W N...



How does this Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt compare to Ken Rad Vt231?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> How does this Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt compare to Ken Rad Vt231?


I'd have to a and b them for a bit... But I've always gushed over these ever since ( @sennfan83261 ) brought them to our attention. He found a rare (1948?) brown base Chrome Dome. I just slapped in the Ken Rad, Ill chime in later.


----------



## JKDJedi

They both have excellent timbre, (always wanted to use that term  ) the Ken Rad vocals are highly dialed in, with crisp highs. The Sylvania has a very nice euphonic delivery here, vocals just fill the room and echos off the walls. Where the Ken Rad tightens the vocals. Both great in their regard. Bass on the Sylvania extends deeper (some might say somewhat bloated), Ken Rad bass is tighter with more control. Of the two i get lost in my music with the Sylvania, Ken Rad I'm more focused. I like em both!


----------



## JKDJedi

Just got an update on the adapter! Yes! It's finally moving....but ....I just bought another one from Deyan...😂 Aaww man, what to do.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Just got an update on the adapter! Yes! It's finally moving....but ....I just bought another one from Deyan...😂 Aaww man, what to do.



There's no such thing as too many adapters.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> O M G... maybe i'm just tired from my workout...but.. this RCA6as7g with the Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7gt...                                                                M I N D           B L O W N...



Have you tried an RCA 6AS7GA (straight bottle)?  I like it better than the 6AS7G I have, but not sure what year either one was manufactured (which could certainly make a difference).

Getting ready to fire up those black round plate Sylvania 6J5's to see how they sound...and see if my paint job on the transformer cover stays intact or melts off.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 13, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Have you tried an RCA 6AS7GA (straight bottle)?  I like it better than the 6AS7G I have, but not sure what year either one was manufactured (which could certainly make a difference).
> 
> Getting ready to fire up those black round plate Sylvania 6J5's to see how they sound...and see if my paint job on the transformer cover stays intact or melts off.


http://www.tubecollectors.org/archives/DowdGuide2.pdf So after reading that my Cunningham 6AS7G could be older than I thought it was. RCA "Cunningham" 6AS7G started in 1925 to 1941 ...holy crap. (although it was listed as 1949 so what do I know)


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> They both have excellent timbre, (always wanted to use that term  ) the Ken Rad vocals are highly dialed in, with crisp highs. The Sylvania has a very nice euphonic delivery here, vocals just fill the room and echos off the walls. Where the Ken Rad tightens the vocals. Both great in their regard. Bass on the Sylvania extends deeper (some might say somewhat bloated), Ken Rad bass is tighter with more control. Of the two i get lost in my music with the Sylvania, Ken Rad I'm more focused. I like em both!



I like the pictures.  I'm thinking of limiting my 6sn7 tubes to Ken Rad VT231, Raytheon VT231 and RCA VT231. Depending on the impressions here, I might get the Melz 1578. I ended up selling the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb and Sylvania 6sn7wgt.

Now in relation to the force tubes I still need to find a TS 5998 or WE 421a.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> http://www.tubecollectors.org/archives/DowdGuide2.pdf So after reading that my Cunningham 6AS7G could be older than I thought it was. RCA "Cunningham" 6AS7G started in 1925 to 1941 ...holy crap. (although it was listed as 1949 so what do I know)



Probably better get a newer one as that's _really_ old.  

Seriously, nice find on that document. Haven't ever seen that before.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I like the pictures.  I'm thinking of limiting my 6sn7 tubes to Ken Rad VT231, Raytheon VT231 and RCA VT231. Depending on the impressions here, I might get the Melz 1578. I ended up selling the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb and Sylvania 6sn7wgt.
> 
> Now in relation to the force tubes I still need to find a TS 5998 or WE 421a.


I almost grabbed a certain VT231 yesterday, I was all into the ESPN 30 30 Like Water movie while my phone was pinging like crazy... after the documentary I look at the phone and nearly cried... gone.. at a price I couldn't believe. 

The one that got away story...


----------



## JackSkully

So I was able to grab these power tubes for around 52USD are mullard tubes any good for the darkvoice


----------



## bcowen

JackSkully said:


> So I was able to grab these power tubes for around 52USD are mullard tubes any good for the darkvoice



Man, nice score!!!  I don't have a Darkvoice, but I'm listening to a Mullard 6080 right now in the Incubus.  Can't tell from the picture if what I have is similar to what you just bought, but the one I have is a great sounding tube to my ears.


----------



## JackSkully

bcowen said:


> Man, nice score!!!  I don't have a Darkvoice, but I'm listening to a Mullard 6080 right now in the Incubus.  Can't tell from the picture if what I have is similar to what you just bought, but the one I have is a great sounding tube to my ears.


Damn well I can't wait to hear them lol I'm surprised no one bother to bid on these since they are so highly priced


----------



## JKDJedi

JackSkully said:


> So I was able to grab these power tubes for around 52USD are mullard tubes any good for the darkvoice


Dude you scored


----------



## JKDJedi

True story.... @bcowen bought these for me. #truelies


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> True story.... @bcowen bought these for me. #truelies



But only if they don't sound good.  I need to wait until your adapter gets here to try them out.


----------



## bcowen

JackSkully said:


> Damn well I can't wait to hear them lol I'm surprised no one bother to bid on these since they are so highly priced



I think the seller contributed to your fortunate score by the way he listed them.  I have "6080* tube" in my Ebay watch list. But he listed them as 'valve/tube' which Ebay would have considered one word.  Those never popped up in my watch list (likely due to just that) or there would have been at least one more person bidding on them.  LOL!  I'm happy that a fellow HeadFi'er scored them regardless.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> But only if they don't sound good.  I need to wait until your adapter gets here to try them out.


Did you really get these!? I have a pair coming in.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Did you really get these!? I have a pair coming in.



Yes, the ones I bought for you.  

Seriously, no.  I was planning to wait for your verdict before adding yet another adapter to the stash.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yes, the ones I bought for you.
> 
> Seriously, no.  I was planning to wait for your verdict before adding yet another adapter to the stash.


The bait and switch.... I knew it!! 🤣


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 15, 2020)

So the Raytheon VT231 sounds like what's described in the OP of the 6SN7 Reference Thread. Mids are slightly forward with a nice attack compared to the laid back approach of Ken Rad, National Union, and Sylvania. The consumer version of that tube are strangely (or maybe it shouldn't be that strange) carbon copy inside (except for the top mica, the consumer version has some type of metal on top where with the VT231 it's none existing). I'm gonna have to revisit this consumer version again. Been a long time but it didn't really move me from memory. Anyways, on some tracks the treble (back to the VT231) can be a little harsh and some might find this tube too forward in the mids, if your listening with sennheiser hd650/6xx then yeah, listening with a v shaped headphone might be the sweet spot with this tube. 

(Consumer tube in yellow print VT231 in orange print)


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi you never thought about switching amplifiers? I often wonder if it is more worthwhile to buy more tubes for Darkvoice or simply to buy another OTL amplifier.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> JKDJedi you never thought about switching amplifiers? I often wonder if it is more worthwhile to buy more tubes for Darkvoice or simply to buy another OTL amplifier.


LOL, it's cheaper to collect for a single tube amplifier than a multiple one, imagine have to buy two or four of everything....that would be costly.


----------



## SHIMACM

Truth. I took that into account when I chose Darkvoice. But you never looked at Bottlehead Cacker did you? Have you ever had the opportunity to hear a better OTL? I always wondered if an Elise with Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB and RCA 6as7g would produce a better sound than a Darkvoice with a Ken Rad Vt231 and WE 421a, for example.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Truth. I took that into account when I chose Darkvoice. But you never looked at Bottlehead Cacker did you? Have you ever had the opportunity to hear a better OTL? I always wondered if an Elise with Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB and RCA 6as7g would produce a better sound than a Darkvoice with a Ken Rad Vt231 and WE 421a, for example.


of course, I thought of the bottlehead crack and almost got one a few months back to build. And the mods I recently did to the Darkvoice has turned it into a new amp. As we speak a loaner amp just arrived from @Paladin79  that he built from scratch with some premium parts inside for me to test out. I'm gonna A n B it with the modded DArkvoice. So stay tuned for that comparison.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> of course, I thought of the bottlehead crack and almost got one a few months back to build. And the mods I recently did to the Darkvoice has turned it into a new amp. As we speak a loaner amp just arrived from @Paladin79  that he built from scratch with some premium parts inside for me to test out. I'm gonna A n B it with the modded DArkvoice. So stay tuned for that comparison.



Anxious for impressions. Are the mods on Darkvoice really worth it? A layman how could I do it?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> of course, I thought of the bottlehead crack and almost got one a few months back to build. And the mods I recently did to the Darkvoice has turned it into a new amp. As we speak a loaner amp just arrived from @Paladin79  that he built from scratch with some premium parts inside for me to test out. I'm gonna A n B it with the modded DArkvoice. So stay tuned for that comparison.


I have heard maybe ten different OTL's myself and customized several bottlehead Cracks. I have only repaired a Darkvoice for a friend and maybe listened a half hour just to know it was working properly. That was a while back but I realized some of the things I would change on the inside were I to own one. I did like the layout overall.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Anxious for impressions. Are the mods on Darkvoice really worth it? A layman how could I do it?


Well, yes. Since I had it in mind to grab the bottlehead...I took the gamble of modding the Darkvoice. And I know nothing about soldering. I do have some experience now, because of what I did to my Darkvoice, but before that I knew nothing. I just watched a lot of YouTube videos..lol. there's a lot of info some posts back on what I did and what resources I used for guidance.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> I have heard maybe ten different OTL's myself and customized several bottlehead Cracks. I have only repaired a Darkvoice for a friend and maybe listened a half hour just to know it was working properly. That was a while back but I realized some of the things I would change on the inside were I to own one. I did like the layout overall.



One of those more expensive OTL's with single tubes or a Darkvoice with premium tube, what would you say? Like the money from premium tubes I could buy a more expensive OTL, for example Elise or Wa2. However, I would have to feed them with simpler tubes, such as TS GTB and RCA 6as7g. In which of these two configurations would I obtain a better gain?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Well, yes. Since I had it in mind to grab the bottlehead...I took the gamble of modding the Darkvoice. And I know nothing about soldering. I do have some experience now, because of what I did to my Darkvoice, but before that I knew nothing. I just watched a lot of YouTube videos..lol. there's a lot of info some posts back on what I did and what resources I used for guidance.



I will do my research work.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 16, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> One of those more expensive OTL's with single tubes or a Darkvoice with premium tube, what would you say? Like the money from premium tubes I could buy a more expensive OTL, for example Elise or Wa2. However, I would have to feed them with simpler tubes, such as TS GTB and RCA 6as7g. In which of these two configurations would I obtain a better gain?


You mean most bang for the buck as opposed to tube gain I would think lol IMHO tubes can be limited by the circuitry around them, output caps especially, quality of wire. I believe better quality OTL's let you hear the tubes more, they open up and you hear the many differences. Personally I would always start with a very good amp and work your way up on tubes, watch for bargains, take a chance on some bulk tube buys. I have purchased tubes by the pound for a headphone rack project and I told the seller I really liked the looks of black glass tubes. I received about a dozen working black glass 6sn7's and 6SL7's for maybe a dollar each if that. I have bought old test equipment just to get the tubes, some were rated at 10,000 hours.

I am not sure I follow single tube vs premium but you may mean single tube OTL's? Most I have dealt with have at least two tubes and some have more. I believe there are some Chinese amps that are hybrids that may take a single tube but I have not dealt with many of those. I bought a four tube amp with built in DAC for $10 and repaired it, but the sound quality was not there and it would be a major rebuild to get it close to where I would listen to it lol.

One of the headphone racks I built on the left, and a highly modified Bottlehead Crack on the right. The tubes on the rack light up and they are not as fragile as you might think.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 16, 2020)

So it begins... The (long time in the makings) comparison of the INCVBVS ELEGAN & DARKVOICE 336SE (Blind Tube Testing). Huge props and thanks to @Paladin79 for the loaner amp. I'm shooting from the hip as to how this will go down. I might wait till it's all said and done, or I might post day day... We'll see.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> So it begins... The (long time in the makings) comparison of the INCVBVS ELEGAN & DARKVOICE 336SE. Huge props and thanks to @Paladin79 for the loaner amp. I'm shooting from the hip as to how this will go down. I might wait till it's all said and done, or I might post day day... We'll see.


The Incubus has a serious power transformer that was Russian military issue, you are running the same tubes I believe, please mention if they have similar gain. I never compared those two amps side by side so I am curious at the power capability of a Darkvoice. The Roman V is our U, thus the spelling on the little badge, translation is supposed to be Elegant Nightmare. Cabinet wood is tulip poplar with ebony splines.


----------



## JKDJedi

And then this drops ...  @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So it begins... The (long time in the makings) comparison of the INCVBVS ELEGAN & DARKVOICE 336SE (Blind Tube Testing). Huge props and thanks to @Paladin79 for the loaner amp. I'm shooting from the hip as to how this will go down. I might wait till it's all said and done, or I might post day day... We'll see.



So...how you gonna keep two amps and 274 new tubes separate as far as listening evaluations? I'm already in awe at the task in front of you.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And then this drops ...  @bcowen



ROFL!  And look what just dropped here?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 17, 2020)

Not the sexiest setup 🤣 and I get the separation now. Interesting.  And don't grab these generic sounding tubes. Unless your into tin cans of course.



SHIMACM said:


> One of those more expensive OTL's with single tubes or a Darkvoice with premium tube, what would you say? Like the money from premium tubes I could buy a more expensive OTL, for example Elise or Wa2. However, I would have to feed them with simpler tubes, such as TS GTB and RCA 6as7g. In which of these two configurations would I obtain a better gain?


I get what your saying now, most consumers just wanting to get their feet wet, like myself, into Tube amplifiers,  will start out with the cheapest option they can get into.Me personally having done my research, found the Darkvoice to be that perfect introduction to the world of Tube Amplifiers. And since I already owned the Sennheiser HD6XX/650 it was a no brainer picking an OTL design.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  And look what just dropped here?


Looks Amazing. Very Nice.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Not the sexiest setup 🤣 and I get the separation now. Interesting.  And don't grab these generic sounding tubes. Unless your into tin cans of course.
> 
> 
> I get what your saying now, most consumers just wanting to get their feet wet, like myself, into Tube amplifiers,  will start out with the cheapest option they can get into.Me personally having done my research, found the Darkvoice to be that perfect introduction to the world of Tube Amplifiers. And since I already owned the Sennheiser HD6XX/650 it was a no brainer picking an OTL design.



maybe you can answer me now.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> So...how you gonna keep two amps and 274 new tubes separate as far as listening evaluations? I'm already in awe at the task in front of you.


Shooting from the hip on this one. I was just sitting there, for half hour, looking at everything, wondering, what did I get myself into! 😂

I'm almost done with picking a winner or at least lining them up from my personal preferences. There's only one tube in there that is easily at the bottom. The other three, depending on which headphones and amp and power tube....could go either way!

Maybe I'm almost NOT done.

Gonna side step from tube picking this morning and compare the two amps with favorite tubes of mine and enjoy some jazz.

@SHIMACM I'm sorry what question did you want me to answer?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Shooting from the hip on this one. I was just sitting there, for half hour, looking at everything, wondering, what did I get myself into! 😂
> 
> I'm almost done with picking a winner or at least lining them up from my personal preferences. There's only one tube in there that is easily at the bottom. The other three, depending on which headphones and amp and power tube....could go either way!
> 
> ...



The question is which has the best performance: Incubus with modest tubes or Darkvoice with premiun tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> The question is which has the best performance: Incubus with modest tubes or Darkvoice with premiun tubes?


Well, not sure. I will say this, my premium tubes can go with me to another amp and still be premium. The modest ones, well they're still modest wherever I go.


----------



## JKDJedi

Just in!!! Stoked!!!! My Minions got here early and the Russia wit Love Sensation!!


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Well, not sure. I will say this, my premium tubes can go with me to another amp and still be premium. The modest ones, well they're still modest wherever I go.



Is cutting out the pre the MOD that gives more effect in Darkvoice? If so, do you know where I can look how to do it?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Is cutting out the pre the MOD that gives more effect in Darkvoice? If so, do you know where I can look how to do it?


I'll do some research on that and if there's none I'll make one for you. Load it up on YouTube to share. I have a trip out of town tomorrow but will try to have it done before Sunday.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'll do some research on that and if there's none I'll make one for you. Load it up on YouTube to share. I have a trip out of town tomorrow but will try to have it done before Sunday.



Okay my friend. Unhurried. Was the improvement considerable in your case?


----------



## SHIMACM

Have you seen this video comparing Darkvoice with Woo Wa22?



If what is in the video is true, it is not worth leaving Darkvoice. Wa22 costs 10x more than Darkvoice and the difference was very small. What do you have to say about that?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Just in!!! Stoked!!!! My Minions got here early and the Russia wit Love Sensation!!


Those National Unions are beauties. Some of my favorite preamp tubes are my National Union 6SN7GT and 6F8G's. I saw a box full of the National Unions that you bought on ebay once for $100-200(?) (could've been more), and I was pretty tempted at the time. Never pulled the trigger though. How do these NU tubes sound?

EDIT: Just bought a matched pair myself


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Those National Unions are beauties. Some of my favorite preamp tubes are my National Union 6SN7GT and 6F8G's. I saw a box full of the National Unions that you bought on ebay once for $100-200, and I was pretty tempted at the time. Never pulled the trigger though. How do these NU tubes sound?
> 
> EDIT: Just bought a matched pair myself


The Minions, for a $100!? Wow... That's crazy, I'm waiting for the adapter to arrive. Always been interested in them. @bcowen kinda double dared me to get em, so I did! I do love the Grey NU VT231 ( ordered another one last week) so hoping these Minions sound the same. And good to hear from you @sennfan83261 been awhile!


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Have you seen this video comparing Darkvoice with Woo Wa22?
> 
> 
> 
> If what is in the video is true, it is not worth leaving Darkvoice. Wa22 costs 10x more than Darkvoice and the difference was very small. What do you have to say about that?



That guy is on cocaine all the time..LOL, he's crazy, I like him! And no I haven't seen that video but he has other videos on the Darkvoice, they kinda helped in my decision to buy the Darkvoice. I follow Zues just for the comedy of his character. He's on point half the time. Crazy collection of headphones. If you like your Darkvoice don't worry about it, just enjoy what you got. And that simple mod will help open her up, seems to be a popular mod. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Minions, for a $100!? Wow... That's crazy, I'm waiting for the adapter to arrive. Always been interested in them. @bcowen kinda double dared me to get em, so I did! I do love the Grey NU VT231 ( ordered another one last week) so hoping these Minions sound the same. And good to hear from you @sennfan83261 been awhile!



Double dare?  LOL!  I was just happy to trade guinea pig duties with someone else.  I have a couple totes full of, um, 'failed' experiments.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Double dare?  LOL!  I was just happy to trade guinea pig duties with someone else.  I have a couple totes full of, um, 'failed' experiments.


🤣😂🤣😂😁 I might have a little fire sale next week with my failed experiments.. They pile up quick! I'm looking down and thinking, when the hell did I get that!? 😂🤣🤣


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> of course, I thought of the bottlehead crack and almost got one a few months back to build. And the mods I recently did to the Darkvoice has turned it into a new amp. As we speak a loaner amp just arrived from @Paladin79  that he built from scratch with some premium parts inside for me to test out. I'm gonna A n B it with the modded DArkvoice. So stay tuned for that comparison.



Looking forward to the competition results ... Good luck


----------



## wwmhf

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus has a serious power transformer that was Russian military issue, you are running the same tubes I believe, please mention if they have similar gain. I never compared those two amps side by side so I am curious at the power capability of a Darkvoice. The Roman V is our U, thus the spelling on the little badge, translation is supposed to be Elegant Nightmare. Cabinet wood is tulip poplar with ebony splines.



I like that texture of the cabinet wood


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> That guy is on cocaine all the time..LOL, he's crazy, I like him! And no I haven't seen that video but he has other videos on the Darkvoice, they kinda helped in my decision to buy the Darkvoice. I follow Zues just for the comedy of his character. He's on point half the time. Crazy collection of headphones. If you like your Darkvoice don't worry about it, just enjoy what you got. And that simple mod will help open her up, seems to be a popular mod. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/



I love Darkvoice, but, you know, I always try to improve until one day death takes me. lol. Regarding the mod just cut the wire?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 20, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus has a serious power transformer that was Russian military issue, you are running the same tubes I believe, please mention if they have similar gain. I never compared those two amps side by side so I am curious at the power capability of a Darkvoice. The Roman V is our U, thus the spelling on the little badge, translation is supposed to be Elegant Nightmare. Cabinet wood is tulip poplar with ebony splines.


The Darkvoice seems to have an edge in gain, (power/volume?) so lower impedance headphones might be better off on the Darkvoice, I did use a 6080 for comparisons, not best power tube for gain purposes, and both amps used the same 6080 tube for (this) comparison. As per my notes the Incubus held it's composure the best by a long shot at the elevated volumes, (if you love to crank up the volume take note).  The better components/innards are clearly evident between the two. The Darkvoice is an excellent intro to the tube amplification world and will always hold a special place in my heart, with a huge following (especially in the mod world) this amp will not be forgotten for a long time. However, if and when the time comes for a nice upgrade or when you start to get that itch for a new amp, consider the Incubus Elegan. 

Edit: The Incubus did struggle pushing my (32 ohm) Fedelio X2.  The Darkvoice barely a hiccup


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I love Darkvoice, but, you know, I always try to improve until one day death takes me. lol. Regarding the mod just cut the wire?


You might not want to "just cut the wire".


----------



## sennfan83261 (Jun 19, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The Minions, for a $100!? Wow... That's crazy, I'm waiting for the adapter to arrive. Always been interested in them. @bcowen kinda double dared me to get em, so I did! I do love the Grey NU VT231 ( ordered another one last week) so hoping these Minions sound the same. And good to hear from you @sennfan83261 been awhile!


Hey, thanks. Nice to see you going balls to the wall with modding your Darkvoice, something I intended to do until I started to buy up a bunch of planars (HE-6, HEXv2, LCD-2 revs. 1 and 2, and the Arya), lol. Anyways, here's another mod idea, which is swapping out the stock 110V transformer for a 120V one: https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2472086

The modder hangs out on hifiguides under the same name if you want to ask any questions about any of the other mods listed in the above thread (including installing a speedball-like mod on the DV )


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Hey, thanks. Nice to see you going balls to the wall with modding your Darkvoice, something I intended to do until I started to buy up a bunch of planars (HE-6, HEXv2, LCD-2 revs. 1 and 2, and the Arya), lol. Anyways, here's another mod idea, which is swapping out the stock 110V transformer for a 120V one: https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2472086
> 
> The modder hangs out on hifiguides under the same name if you want to ask any questions about any of the other mods listed in the above thread (including installing a speedball-like mod on the DV )


I'll probably never pull the transfer off that thing, so a week later I'm pulling the transfer off... ,🤣. Well, I'll look into that, as is, with the output RCA disconnected, and the bias LED mod, I m kinda of content with the amp. I was thinking of getting a better DAC for the Darkvoice and now I'm not so sure. I'm gonna have to stop hording on the tubes and save some for maybe a new amp. We'll see, holidays are around the corner. 😉


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna have to stop hording on the tubes....



Finally.  I was beginning to wonder if there'd be any left for me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Finally.  I was beginning to wonder if there'd be any left for me.


🤣🤣🤣🤣 😂😂😆


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody here know much or have the Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7W ?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> You might not want to "just cut the wire".



In addition to the wire I take more what? LOL


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody here know much or have the Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7W ?



You mean like this?  For some really weird reason it sounds to me exactly like a Frankie, except I've convinced myself it sounds better because I spent 20x as much on it.   

I understand there is a metal-based version of this tube that is supposed to be quite excellent. Usually $150+ from when I've seen them. I don't have one and haven't ever heard one though.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You mean like this?  For some really weird reason it sounds to me exactly like a Frankie, except I've convinced myself it sounds better because I spent 20x as much on it.
> 
> I understand there is a metal-based version of this tube that is supposed to be quite excellent. Usually $150+ from when I've seen them. I don't have one and haven't ever heard one though.


Have short bottle of that tube coming in. And possibly... (*Gasp) a GE. Thought I was getting a bargain then realized the tall bottles are the ones to get. And holy sh&t...those are $$$ (tall bottles)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Have short bottle of that tube coming in. And possibly... (*Gasp) a GE. Thought I was getting a bargain then realized the tall bottles are the ones to get. And holy sh&t...those are $$$ (tall bottles)



Well, if you scrape off the GE label and replace it with something like, oh, I don't know...maybe "CrapGarbage" or something, it will be more accepted by visiting audiophiles.


----------



## bcowen

I was thinking about going for this one. But then the seller confused me by stating "Free Shipping" in the ad title and then wanting $3.00 further down. So I decided to pass on it.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I was thinking about going for this one. But then the seller confused me by stating "Free Shipping" in the ad title and then wanting $3.00 further down. So I decided to pass on it.


They might have recovered it from the Titanic, how could you pass that up!   Do you have a Brimar pair,  Or are you still looking?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> They might have recovered it from the Titanic, how could you pass that up!   Do you have a Brimar pair,  Or are you still looking?



I have a pair of Brimar round plates.  Not enthused. Very lightweight sounding, lacking body and fullness and pretty anemic sounding. Sound like listening to a pair of mini-monitors with the woofers removed.     Brimar made some outstanding tubes, but the 6J5 (at least this particular version) wasn't one of them.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I have a pair of Brimar round plates.  Not enthused. Very lightweight sounding, lacking body and fullness and pretty anemic sounding. Sound like listening to a pair of mini-monitors with the woofers removed.     Brimar made some outstanding tubes, but the 6J5 (at least this particular version) wasn't one of them.


You just decribed these guys... Lol.. soon to be auctioned off. Maybe I should give them a 2nd sit down. 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You just decribed these guys... Lol.. soon to be auctioned off. Maybe I should give them a 2nd sit down. 🤔



Mine are the glass bottle versions with round plates.  Maybe the same sonically, but I kind of doubt it.  PS: your adapter is crooked.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 20, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> In addition to the wire I take more what? LOL


Do you even  have a soldering gun? I'd solder that off, and you might be able to get away with just disconnecting the ground wire. in the photo this user disconnected the output wire on both ends. I did read (in that link I posted above) *hint , that the user felt he could've gotten away with just disconnecting the ground wire. You might want to invest in a soldering gun and or a soldering kit that has the flux with it. And if you didn't understand all that. Time to do your home work. Before you touch ANYTHING!

The author of the post (linked) just tied up both ends of his cables here






Here I just extracted the entire cable, melting off the sodder on both ends, just in case I needed to reverse this. Easy to sodder it back on if needed.





Here you could try to just remove the ground, might work, and only one wire to remove. Good Luck!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Mine are the glass bottle versions with round plates.  Maybe the same sonically, but I kind of doubt it.  PS: your adapter is crooked.


Made In China   Now these would be nice to have. And yeah, I think the severe opposite to the tin cans.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Do you even  have a soldering gun? I'd solder that off, and you might be able to get away with just disconnecting the ground wire. in the photo this user disconnected the output wire on both ends. I did read (in that link I posted above) *hint , that the user felt he could've gotten away with just disconnecting the ground wire. You might want to invest in a soldering gun and or a soldering kit that has the flux with it. And if you didn't understand all that. Time to do your home work. Before you touch ANYTHING!
> 
> The author of the post (linked) just tied up both ends of his cables here
> 
> ...



Wow ... thank you! I will open it, take it easy and try to do it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm very relieved it's not a GE! Seems to be a very early copy of the clear glass KenRad VT231. And the same for the Sylvania 6SN7W.. dated J 5? That's new for me. (October 1945?)


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 21, 2020)

Good Night Folks!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 21, 2020)

Well, it's a wrap! My comparisons are done and have her all ready to ship to the next person. Contact @Paladin79 if your interested. Impressions below. My work schedule just picked up 500% so I'll be seeing you guys when I see ya.. Chow.


The modifications I did to the Darkvoice must have really opened her up, However the Incubus delivers a nice an pure clean signal. Darkvoice is somewhat raw in it's delivery, which I honestly don't mind as much, and nice to have experienced what purity sounds like with the Incubus. Low harmonic distortion (if any!) compared to the Darkvoices. However, both are enjoyable to listen too. To me, listening to a tubed amplifier, your expecting some harmonic distortion, it's a given. The volume pot on the Incubus is EXCELLENT, the volume gradually rises, no surprises.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Well, it's a wrap! My comparisons are done and have her all ready to ship to the next person. Contact @Paladin79 if your interested. Impressions below. My work schedule just picked up 500% so I'll be seeing you guys when I see ya.. Chow.
> 
> 
> The modifications I did to the Darkvoice must have really opened her up, However the Incubus delivers a nice an pure clean signal. Darkvoice is somewhat raw in it's delivery, which I honestly don't mind as much, and nice to have experienced what purity sounds like with the Incubus. Low harmonic distortion (if any!) compared to the Darkvoices. However, both are enjoyable to listen too. To me, listening to a tubed amplifier, your expecting some harmonic distortion, it's a given. The volume pot on the Incubus is EXCELLENT, the volume gradually rises, no surprises.
> ...


So this is not too confusing for others, those four digit codes are just made up numbers so I can identify which tube is which when I send out concealed tubes. There is no 2164 Melz per se since that is not the brand tube with that designation. Also I sent four tubes, I only see comments about three. What was the fourth tube number maybe 1743?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 21, 2020)

Thanks for taking the time to check out the tubes, now which tube would you like to keep with the Darkvoice?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> So this is not too confusing for others, those four digit codes are just made up numbers so I can identify which tube is which when I send out concealed tubes. There is no 2164 Melz per se since that is not the brand tube with that designation. Also I sent four tubes, I only see comments about three. What was the fourth tube number maybe 1743?


Oops... Sorry! I'll delete that real quick


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> So this is not too confusing for others, those four digit codes are just made up numbers so I can identify which tube is which when I send out concealed tubes. There is no 2164 Melz per se since that is not the brand tube with that designation. Also I sent four tubes, I only see comments about three. What was the fourth tube number maybe 1743?


Yes! 1743 was the bottom pick no matter what I used.. 😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Made In China   Now these would be nice to have. And yeah, I think the severe opposite to the tin cans.



I have a pair of Philco-labeled round black plates that are next in queue.  They look very similar to the TungSols internally (and moreso than the Sylvanias), so I'm keeping my hopes up.  The Sylvanias just didn't do it for me, but of course I've only heard one particular version made in one particular year. They also could have been assembled on a Monday hangover morning.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm very relieved it's not a GE! Seems to be a very early copy of the clear glass KenRad VT231. And the same for the Sylvania 6SN7W.. dated J 5? That's new for me. (October 1945?)



No etched dots.  Always a good sign.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Yes! 1743 was the bottom pick no matter what I used.. 😂



No friggin' way you can just leave it at that. I mean really.  Teaser.   

So @Paladin79 what was 1743?  Unless you slipped a Philips ECG in there, I have my own suspicions.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I have a pair of Philco-labeled round black plates that are next in queue.  They look very similar to the TungSols internally (and moreso than the Sylvanias), so I'm keeping my hopes up.  The Sylvanias just didn't do it for me, but of course I've only heard one particular version made in one particular year. They also could have been assembled on a Monday hangover morning.


I was checking them Philco out .. let me know what ya think about them.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 21, 2020)

bcowen said:


> No friggin' way you can just leave it at that. I mean really.  Teaser.
> 
> So @Paladin79 what was 1743?  Unless you slipped a Philips ECG in there, I have my own suspicions.


Not sure he can say, this might be ongoing..but that tube was lifeless, boring and seemed to be in it's last legs 🤔


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 21, 2020)

bcowen said:


> No friggin' way you can just leave it at that. I mean really.  Teaser.
> 
> So @Paladin79 what was 1743?  Unless you slipped a Philips ECG in there, I have my own suspicions.


1743 was an RCA Grey glass from 1942
2164 was a Sylvania VT 231 with three hole black plates
2911 was the Tung Sol Mouse ear
1516 was a CBS/Hytron 5692

One man's  Picasso is another man's squiggly lines. That 1743 was rated number one or number two in most challenges involving more than say ten people. And I tend to believe in truth in numbers lol. Obviously not your cup of tea though but all is good, that CBS Hytron is no slouch.

I can say what they are because I am gifting those tubes and amp, I will never see them again. My next tube challenge involves 52 tubes and four identical Incubi amps, the pvc is a pain and time consuming and I am not sure I can even recover the tubes after all the hot glue and sealing wax I used. I have photos of the process somewhere but it is something I came up with to win a bet with @bcowen and that was a totally fun experience.  I do believe Jason at Schiit (you may have heard of that brand) picked the RCA grey glass as his favorite as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> 1743 was an RCA Grey glass from 1942
> 2164 was a Sylvania VT 231 with three hole black plates
> 2911 was the Tung Sol Mouse ear
> 1516 was a CBS/Hytron 5692
> ...


Happy my ears picked up on the top tier tubes.   And unhappy I rejected your generous offer.   I could of swore The Sylvania was a Melz..lol!  And I never really did like the RCA,s They're ok, just something about the mids that sound nasally. And wow...the Hytron, what a surprise! I've never heard that one before.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Happy my ears picked up on the top tier tubes.   And unhappy I rejected your generous offer.   I could of swore The Sylvania was a Melz..lol!  And I never really did like the RCA,s They're ok, just something about the mids that sound nasally. And wow...the Hytron, what a surprise! I've never heard that one before.


The offer stands if you want the tube. I could be wrong on this and Bill can correct me but I am thinking the 5692 might have a higher gain? I am not in a position to check right now, a real good tube to try to find is the red base RCA 5692.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-JA...615780&hash=item42190aedc8:g:udEAAOSwpFheyI5G

There is one of those in my 52 6sn7 equivalent challenge.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The offer stands if you want the tube. I could be wrong on this and Bill can correct me but I am thinking the 5692 might have a higher gain? I am not in a position to check right now, a real good tube to try to find is the red base RCA 5692.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-JA...615780&hash=item42190aedc8:g:udEAAOSwpFheyI5G
> 
> There is one of those in my 52 6sn7 equivalent challenge.


I'll humbly PM you right now. Thank you 😊


----------



## JKDJedi

Huge props and thanks to @Paladin79 for allowing me to demo his amp. If it wasn't for my work schedule I'd want to keep it for a few more weeks. And I'm even more thankful, that I was gifted the tube of my choice! I almost went Sylvania, as I have a huge boner for them!! Anyway, this has been a promising experiment, thanks Tom. 


CBS-Hytron 5692


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The offer stands if you want the tube. I could be wrong on this and Bill can correct me but I am thinking the 5692 might have a higher gain? I am not in a position to check right now, a real good tube to try to find is the red base RCA 5692.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-JA...615780&hash=item42190aedc8:g:udEAAOSwpFheyI5G
> 
> There is one of those in my 52 6sn7 equivalent challenge.



The 5692 should have approximately the same gain as a 6SN7GT (amplification factor of 20) but with slightly lower transconductance.  Personally, I like the CBS/Hytron 5692 better than the RCA, but that's just me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The 5692 should have approximately the same gain as a 6SN7GT (amplification factor of 20) but with slightly lower transconductance.  Personally, I like the CBS/Hytron 5692 better than the RCA, but that's just me.


Not just you...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Not just you...


It is a very good tube no doubt. It was not in the choices I sent Bill on his blind challenge, I can recall his liking the black glass Ken Rad Vt-231


----------



## JKDJedi

Slightly off topic...  Happy Fathers Day guys!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a very good tube no doubt. It was not in the choices I sent Bill on his blind challenge, I can recall his liking the black glass Ken Rad Vt-231



IIRC, I also liked that '42 RCA gray glass quite a bit.  In fact, I think that RCA and the KenRad were my two favorites of the group you sent?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Slightly off topic...  Happy Fathers Day guys!!



And to you as well!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> IIRC, I also liked that '42 RCA gray glass quite a bit.  In fact, I think that RCA and the KenRad were my two favorites of the group you sent?


That could well be, I was also trying to find tubes that might match up with the GE.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That could well be, I was also trying to find tubes that might match up with the GE.



Pretty much any totally worn out tube (with or without a vacuum leak) would match up well with a GE.


----------



## SHIMACM

Anyone else here besides JKDJedi (I know he likes transparent glass better) compared Ken Rad Vt231 black glass to transparent glass? If so, do they sound similar? Or is there a favorite?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Anyone else here besides JKDJedi (I know he likes transparent glass better) compared Ken Rad Vt231 black glass to transparent glass? If so, do they sound similar? Or is there a favorite?


Well... I have a different opinion now... Interesting story... My one VT231 clear glass that I had for awhile seems to actually be a SYLVANIA. I grabbed another clear glass VT231 that seems to be legit this time.


----------



## SHIMACM

The legitimate one is the middle one, right? If so, it's the same as mine. But then, do you have a favorite? Or do they sound the same?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> The legitimate one is the middle one, right? If so, it's the same as mine. But then, do you have a favorite? Or do they sound the same?


Your gonna hate my answer..... I like em both. The clear seems to have the deeper bass, but maybe because the Black Ken Rad has some really decent highs in there. Crisp clean highs that I wasn't expecting on first listen. The clear glass is warmer.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is the legitimate one in the middle? lol


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Is the legitimate one in the middle? lol


Yes, so weird the right being a Sylvania..


----------



## SHIMACM

From what I had read, I thought that the tube on the right was a Ken Rad from the 50's and that it sounded worse than the one from the 40's (in this case the legitimate Ken Rad).


----------



## SHIMACM

And Ken Rad vt231 with Melz 1578. Do you have a favorite?


----------



## JKDJedi

I read VT231 tubes were only made to 1945.. so someones lying.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> And Ken Rad vt231 with Melz 1578. Do you have a favorite?


Between those two, no. Because sometimes I feel like a nut, and sometimes I don't. All dependant on my mood ring.


----------



## JKDJedi

Sorry, the Melz is a beast, has some really nice gain ( a lot of it really) that might give it the apparent better sound. Really nice tube. Mids are more forward than the Ken Rads, well more forward than most tubes. You might like it for the Beyerdynamic.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, the Melz is a beast, has some really nice gain ( a lot of it really) that might give it the apparent better sound. Really nice tube. Mids are more forward than the Ken Rads, well more forward than most tubes. You might like it for the Beyerdynamic.



He's on my wish list.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Well... I have a different opinion now... Interesting story... My one VT231 clear glass that I had for awhile seems to actually be a SYLVANIA. I grabbed another clear glass VT231 that seems to be legit this time.



You're right, the right one with Ken-Rad on base looks like a Sylvania to me.


----------



## SHIMACM

My Chatham 6as7g and Raytheon Vt231 tubes arrived. I'm still feeling their sound. But the first press is very good. Last night I could hear Chatham with RCA Vt231. What a combination! It surpassed my RCA JAN 6as7g in almost all aspects. Chatham is more holographic, has a cleaner sound and the midrange is more developed. There are details in my songs that I hadn't noticed before with other force tubes. Raytheon vt231 I heard it very quickly and only with RCA 6as7g. I will listen to you more so I can put my impressions here. Can anyone here compare Chatham 6as7g to Tung-sol / chatham 5998? What would the 5998 stand out for?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> My Chatham 6as7g and Raytheon Vt231 tubes arrived. I'm still feeling their sound. But the first press is very good. Last night I could hear Chatham with RCA Vt231. What a combination! It surpassed my RCA JAN 6as7g in almost all aspects. Chatham is more holographic, has a cleaner sound and the midrange is more developed. There are details in my songs that I hadn't noticed before with other force tubes. Raytheon vt231 I heard it very quickly and only with RCA 6as7g. I will listen to you more so I can put my impressions here. Can anyone here compare Chatham 6as7g to Tung-sol / chatham 5998? What would the 5998 stand out for?


I missed out on a bid for the Chatham's... awesome that you finally got your tubes! They'll probably sound even better once settled in.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sure.  We all believe you.  Kinda.
> 
> I'm no expert on Bad Boys (and totally ignorant on Fat Boys LOL!) but this looks pretty close.  EIA code is right for Sylvania. Not sure if Bad Boys went into 1953 though.  Pretty cheap if it's for real.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-6SN7GT-audio-vacuum-tube-Fat-Boy-3-hole-tested-NOS/392774681166?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200423103423&meid=267afe2d0fde42ddbff52acc9d31bc70&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=143618759363&itm=392774681166&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Motorola&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850


They dropped the price on this a little, I caved... See how it compares to the original, thanks for the link. @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> They dropped the price on this a little, I caved... See how it compares to the original, thanks for the link. @bcowen



Well let us know how it sounds.  Not sure how a Fat Boy compares to a Bad Boy, but I guess one is a more discriminatory moniker than the other.  LOL!!!


----------



## SHIMACM

Well folks I did a battery of tests here involving the following tubes: RCA 6SN7GT VT 231 gray glass, KEN RAD 6SN7GT VT231 transparent glass, RAYTHEON 6SN7GT VT231, CHATHAM 6AS7G and RCA JAN 6AS7G.  Well then.  Crossing the force tubes with the pre tubes I obtained the following preference: 1) RCA VT231 and CHATHAM.  2) KEN RAD and CHATHAM.  3) RCA VT231 AND RCA 6AS7G.  4) KEN RAD AND RCA 6AS7G.  5) RAYTHEON and RCA 6AS7G and 6) RAYTHEON and CHATHAM.  Of the configurations above, the only one I didn't really like was the Raytheon VT231 and CHATHAM.  I found it a little shiny on my T1 and consequently fatiguing, but it should look very good on the HD650.  The combination RCA VT231 and CHATHAM sounded best to my ears, followed closely by CHATHAM and KEN RAD VT231.


----------



## SHIMACM

After much research, I managed to buy my Tung-Sol 5998, and for $ 65 (excluding shipping). Okay, the tube is not tested. But the seller said it is a NOS. Let's see if I'm going to received a good tube. Now my wish list comes down to Melz and Bendix 6080.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> After much research, I managed to buy my Tung-Sol 5998, and for $ 65 (excluding shipping). Okay, the tube is not tested. But the seller said it is a NOS. Let's see if I'm going to received a good tube. Now my wish list comes down to Melz and Bendix 6080.


----------



## Slade01

Just as an aside....why do some tube sellers write directly on the tubes with a sharpie???  This kills me.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 1, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Just as an aside....why do some tube sellers write directly on the tubes with a sharpie???  This kills me.


😂😂 I feel ya, trying to get rid of one sent to me like that.


----------



## JKDJedi

Happy Wednesday Folks


----------



## JackSkully

Hey guys I have 3 Mullard 6080 tested  and working that I got from a good friend who was moving how much do they go for individually.
Also they are not rebranded and have a metal base


----------



## SHIMACM

Is the Tung-sol 5998 a tube of 5000 hours or 10000 hours of life?


----------



## JKDJedi

JackSkully said:


> Hey guys I have 3 Mullard 6080 tested  and working that I got from a good friend who was moving how much do they go for individually.
> Also they are not rebranded and have a metal base


Those can go up to anywhere $100 - $150 if tested NOS (80 to 100)% life in the tube.  They go for $60 for members here at this thread only


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 2, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Is the Tung-sol 5998 a tube of 5000 hours or 10000 hours of life?


I'd doubt they go for 10,000 hours, there's only one type of tube that I know of that claims that number, and that's the 5692 (RCA, CBS-Hytron) I rotate my tubes frequently, almost on a weekly basis, sometimes daily. Life of a tube roller.Your tubes "might" last longer if you have some type of rotation system. One of my tubes only comes out once every full moon.


----------



## SHIMACM

But is at least nominally informed that they last 10,000 hours? Since it is a miliary tube?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> But is at least nominally informed that they last 10,000 hours? Since it is a miliary tube?


The 5692? Yes, because of the special military build. They're rated at 10,000 hours. And can withstand high number of G Force.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> But is at least nominally informed that they last 10,000 hours? Since it is a miliary tube?



Alot of military tube designations are identical in construction to the consumer versions.  The differences in those lie in the testing and quality control (military required more rigorous / strict testing specs).   Like @JKDJedi  said - the 5692 is probably one of the only types that were specifically made for military and has that construction for rugged use.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## SHIMACM

No, no. The question is related to the TS 5998. Is it a tube that the manufacturer says is 10,000 hours old? Regardless if it is true in practice.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> No, no. The question is related to the TS 5998. Is it a tube that the manufacturer says is 10,000 hours old? Regardless if it is true in practice.


I've never heard of any such claims for the 5998 as a 10,000 hour tube. It'd be nice if all the tubes lasted 10,000 hours. Now I'm wondering what the natural life span is..hold on, gonna do a quick Google..

Their *lifespan* is determined by the type of power amp circuit they are utilised in—the power rating and circuit topology (push-pull or single-ended)—but somewhere between 1000 to 2000 hours is a reasonable estimate. *N.O.S.* power *tubes* are shorter-lived than preamp *tubes* and they're physically larger. 


Google has spoken.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gonna have some fun comparing these two Bad Boys.  The getter flash on the Motorola is impressive.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Just as an aside....why do some tube sellers write directly on the tubes with a sharpie???  This kills me.



Sharpie ink wipes off very easily with some alcohol.  Unless of course they're written over the manufacturers silkscreen, which would then likely come off with the Sharpie ink.  THAT would kill me.  Probably like instantly.   What I hate is when they use those cheap little paper stickers that shred into little pieces and leave sticky gunk all over when you try and pull them off.  Even alcohol is almost useless (especially on the adhesive on Russian stickers) , and it's time for the Goo Gone....which then has to be cleaned off itself.  Arrrggghhh.  First world problems, I suppose.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sharpie ink wipes off very easily with some alcohol.  Unless of course they're written over the manufacturers silkscreen, which would then likely come off with the Sharpie ink.  THAT would kill me.  Probably like instantly.   What I hate is when they use those cheap little paper stickers that shred into little pieces and leave sticky gunk all over when you try and pull them off.  Even alcohol is almost useless (especially on the adhesive on Russian stickers) , and it's time for the Goo Gone....which then has to be cleaned off itself.  Arrrggghhh.  First world problems, I suppose.


Blame it on the alcohol...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Blame it on the alcohol...



But alcohol is usually the _solution_...to most things.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Sharpie ink wipes off very easily with some alcohol.  Unless of course they're written over the manufacturers silkscreen, which would then likely come off with the Sharpie ink.  THAT would kill me.  Probably like instantly.   What I hate is when they use those cheap little paper stickers that shred into little pieces and leave sticky gunk all over when you try and pull them off.  Even alcohol is almost useless (especially on the adhesive on Russian stickers) , and it's time for the Goo Gone....which then has to be cleaned off itself.  Arrrggghhh.  First world problems, I suppose.




Thankfully not on any silk screen.  Will try the alcohol.  Because i do not want to be reminded that the tube tested 106/100 each and every time i have to look down at it.  Maybe if he wrote it in some fancy cool calligraphy it wouldnt be as bad.

Oh and hell yes the annoying paper stickers are a pain in the a** when it leaves that residue.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Thankfully not on any silk screen.  Will try the alcohol.  Because i do not want to be reminded that the tube tested 106/100 each and every time i have to look down at it.  Maybe if he wrote it in some fancy cool calligraphy it wouldnt be as bad.
> 
> Oh and hell yes the annoying paper stickers are a pain in the a** when it leaves that residue.


That should come easy with alcohol (hope so). And wow... everything is spotless on your setup. Which tubes are those?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> But alcohol is usually the _solution_...to most things.



Amen to _that_.


----------



## Slade01 (Jul 2, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> That should come easy with alcohol (hope so). And wow... everything is spotless on your setup. Which tubes are those?



This one was a bargain basement find a Sonora 6SN7GT (really a National Union Black Glass (Code 247), I'm guessing 1951 with the date code (51-5).  I've paired it initially with a Winged C power tube to help with the soundstage and brightness. The tube itself is already warm, good mid bass, so just trying to tame it a touch, though its a bit micro-phonic still so i'm leaving it to burn in a bit for now.   You know, me and my basement finds...this one was a 10 dollar tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> This one was a bargain basement find a Sonora 6SN7GT (really a National Union Black Glass (Code 247), I'm guessing 1951 with the date code (51-5).  I've paired it initially with a Winged C power tube to help with the soundstage and brightness. The tube itself is already warm, good mid bass, so just trying to tame it a touch, though its a bit micro-phonic still so i'm leaving it to burn in a bit for now.   You know, me and my basement finds...this one was a 10 dollar tube.


I like the National Unions as much as I like the Sylvanias, got that tube vibe I like going for them. Not over clinical, just enough details in the mids, everything else is just bliss. .


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Thankfully not on any silk screen.  Will try the alcohol.  Because i do not want to be reminded that the tube tested 106/100 each and every time i have to look down at it.  Maybe if he wrote it in some fancy cool calligraphy it wouldnt be as bad.
> 
> Oh and hell yes the annoying paper stickers are a pain in the a** when it leaves that residue.




I actually like the sharpie a lot. First of all it gives you an idea how the tube tests. I don't like tubes that come with no measurements. Secondly, it can be removed by alcohol with easy. I always clean incoming tubes with iso alcohol, especially on the pins. So after I clean the pins with alcohol, I sometimes remove the sharpie marks. But in most cases I just leave the measurements there, they normally do not bother me, unless someone's writing is really ugly...LOL

As long as the sharpie doesn't cover any of the vulnerable silkscreen, I'm just fine.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I like the National Unions as much as I like the Sylvanias, got that tube vibe I like going for them. Not over clinical, just enough details in the mids, everything else is just bliss. .





cddc said:


> I actually like the sharpie a lot. First of all it gives you an idea how the tube tests. I don't like tubes that come with no measurements. Secondly, it can be removed by alcohol with easy. I always clean incoming tubes with iso alcohol, especially on the pins. So after I clean the pins with alcohol, I sometimes remove the sharpie marks. But in most cases I just leave the measurements there, they normally do not bother me, unless someone's writing is really ugly...LOL
> 
> As long as the sharpie doesn't cover any of the vulnerable silkscreen, I'm just fine.



Thanks...i didnt realize the marker can be removed by alcohol easily.  I get pretty pissed when i see it done at all, it didn't even dawn on me to try to remove it .  To me it is so akin to writing some details (e.g. "Great Condition") in a big fat sharpie on a Gibson or a Martin guitar before lets say selling it someone.  I guess in some weird way, I find it just slightly disrespectful to the to the instrument.

Yeah in retrospect, its not all that bad.  For the price i paid for this one, I could live it with it the writing on it.   But write it on some higher end/highly coveted $$$ tube?  Hell to the no.


----------



## cddc

It's good to have some writing on tubes so that you can remember how much each tube was tested at. If you have more than 10 tubes, you will possibly forget which tube tested at what level with time. Sharpie is much better than stickers, which sometimes can be a PITA to remove. 

If you really don't like sharpie, just remove it with alcohol, but make sure you write down the test value somewhere (maybe on a box ).


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> It's good to have some writing on tubes so that you can remember how much each tube was tested at. If you have more than 10 tubes, you will possibly forget which tube tested at what level with time. Sharpie is much better than stickers, which sometimes can be a PITA to remove.
> 
> If you really don't like sharpie, just remove it with alcohol, but make sure you write down the test value somewhere (maybe on a box ).





Slade01 said:


> Thanks...i didnt realize the marker can be removed by alcohol easily.  I get pretty pissed when i see it done at all, it didn't even dawn on me to try to remove it .  To me it is so akin to writing some details (e.g. "Great Condition") in a big fat sharpie on a Gibson or a Martin guitar before lets say selling it someone.  I guess in some weird way, I find it just slightly disrespectful to the to the instrument.
> 
> Yeah in retrospect, its not all that bad.  For the price i paid for this one, I could live it with it the writing on it.   But write it on some higher end/highly coveted $$$ tube?  Hell to the no.





cddc said:


> It's good to have some writing on tubes so that you can remember how much each tube was tested at. If you have more than 10 tubes, you will possibly forget which tube tested at what level with time. Sharpie is much better than stickers, which sometimes can be a PITA to remove.
> 
> If you really don't like sharpie, just remove it with alcohol, but make sure you write down the test value somewhere (maybe on a box ).


Same here didn't realize alcohol was the trick! And so obvious! Thanks @bcowen for the mad tip! Now I'm thinking of keeping the tube I put up for sale ...lol. the huge OK marked on the base wiped off easy. Maybe they think these are used cars with the huge For Sale written in them. Anyways all good.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Same here didn't realize alcohol was the trick! And so obvious! Thanks @bcowen for the mad tip! Now I'm thinking of keeping the tube I put up for sale ...lol. the huge OK marked on the base wiped off easy. Maybe they think these are used cars with the huge For Sale written in them. Anyways all good.




For Sale is ugly...but if they put this car tested 4.5 s/100meter from 0, I'd keep it for good...LOL


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Same here didn't realize alcohol was the trick! And so obvious! Thanks @bcowen for the mad tip! Now I'm thinking of keeping the tube I put up for sale ...lol. the huge OK marked on the base wiped off easy. Maybe they think these are used cars with the huge For Sale written in them. Anyways all good.





cddc said:


> It's good to have some writing on tubes so that you can remember how much each tube was tested at. If you have more than 10 tubes, you will possibly forget which tube tested at what level with time. Sharpie is much better than stickers, which sometimes can be a PITA to remove.
> 
> If you really don't like sharpie, just remove it with alcohol, but make sure you write down the test value somewhere (maybe on a box ).



I always just write the measurements on the box. Some people are picky about boxes, but I'm not one of them.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I always just write the measurements on the box. Some people are picky about boxes, but I'm not one of them.


Someone has this huge fetish for FOTONs.... Holy Tube Collections....DUDE!


----------



## cddc

That Foton stash will for sure last more than one life...at least 7 I'll say


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> That Foton stash will for sure last more than one life...at least 7 I'll say



No such thing as "too many backups".  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

My lord... I forgot how tasty this was!!


----------



## norkuy (Jul 7, 2020)

Does anyone have tube recommendations for chill electronic, chillwave, downtempo? I listen to everything but primarily electronic. Using HD6XXs.


----------



## JKDJedi

norkuy said:


> Does anyone have tube recommendations for chill electronic, chillwave, downtempo? I listen to everything but primarily electronic. Using HD6XXs.


You might like Tung Sol 7236 (thread favorited) and almost any preamp tube out there. RCA 6SN7GT is liked by most and Tung Sol (tall bottle) 6SN7GTB. My last post above is a nice mix for downtempo. Tung Sol 6SN7GT MOUSE EARS.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> You might like Tung Sol 7236 (thread favorited) and almost any preamp tube out there. RCA 6SN7GT is liked by most and Tung Sol (tall bottle) 6SN7GTB. My last post above is a nice mix for downtempo. Tung Sol 6SN7GT MOUSE EARS.



I'll second the tung sol mouse ears.  Also personally, i actually like to use the Shuguang Black Treasure CV181z with chillwave/electronica.  Its soundstaging/holographic blend sounds really good for this genre in my opinion.


----------



## lycos (Jul 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Tung Sol 7236



I'm quite new with tube rolling.
I just bought DV with RCA 6AS7G and Sylvania 6SN7GTB
Where can I get this Tung Sol 7236? Can't find it anywhere on internet or ebay.


----------



## JKDJedi

lycos said:


> I'm quite new with tube rolling.
> I just bought DV with RCA 6AS7G and Sylvania 6SN7
> Where can I get this Tung Sol 7236? Can't find it anywhere on internet or ebay.


Yeah, good question. It's because @Slade01 and @bcowen bought them all. A good alternative I hear is the Cetron 7236.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Yeah, good question. It's because @Slade01 and @bcowen bought them all. A good alternative I hear is the Cetron 7236.



Lol.  I wish.  The Cetron is essentially a tung sol 7236 as Cetron bought Tung Sol in the 70s and used the same tooling equipment.  You can also look for Cetron 7236 on ebay (there is one seller offering them but for about 60 a pop), and usually the ones you find are from Richardson Electronics Made  which is indicative that their production date is early 80s.  I have both a tung sol and a cetron/richardson, and they sound close.


----------



## lycos

Slade01 said:


> The Cetron is essentially a tung sol 7236 as Cetron bought Tung Sol in the 70s and used the same tooling equipment.



Are they similar or identical?
With shipping, Cetron 7236 will cost me $100.

I just found a local seller for Tung Sol 7236 but the price is $140.

Do you reckon it's a better choice than 5998? Woo audio is selling it for a whooping $325!!
.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 9, 2020)

lycos said:


> Are they similar or identical?
> With shipping, Cetron 7236 will cost me $100.
> 
> I just found a local seller for Tung Sol 7236 but the price is $140.
> ...





lycos said:


> Are they similar or identical?
> With shipping, Cetron 7236 will cost me $100.
> 
> I just found a local seller for Tung Sol 7236 but the price is $140.
> ...


Similar, from posts here and there. I only have the Tung sol& Sylvania 7236 & 5998 to compare, and am kinda wanting the Cetron, only for it's cool logo. I hope that $325 is for a pair.


----------



## lycos

JKDJedi said:


> I hope that $325 is for a pair.



Nah. Each. https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each


----------



## Slade01

lycos said:


> Nah. Each. https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each



Yeah no.  Save your cash for a next level amp or headphones at that point...


----------



## JKDJedi

lycos said:


> Nah. Each. https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each


I just saw one go for $135 on ebay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Tung-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
and you can find them cheaper.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Similar, from posts here and there. I only have the Tung sol& Sylvania 7236 & 5998 to compare, and am kinda wanting the Cetron, only for it's cool logo. I hope that $325 is for a pair.



Personally, I like the Cetron 7236 over the Tung Sol.  But that's just me.   I only have one TungSol 7236 and although it tests quite well, maybe it's just a poor sample.  I tried to tell you guys about these Cetrons back when the guy was selling them on Ebay for $25 each.  But was anybody listening?  Noooooooooo.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Personally, I like the Cetron 7236 over the Tung Sol.  But that's just me.   I only have one TungSol 7236 and although it tests quite well, maybe it's just a poor sample.  I tried to tell you guys about these Cetrons back when the guy was selling them on Ebay for $25 each.  But was anybody listening?  Noooooooooo.


Tung Sol sound better with HD6xx than the Beyerdynamic, it was the Tung sol vanishing from the shelves that peaked my interest in the Cetron. That and the cool logo.


----------



## JKDJedi

And then my left channel goes out...great,  have an idea what it is, just don't have time to take it apart today. I'm thinking one of the LED lights I put under there went out. If that's not it I read to release any discharge left in the capacitors. o.O I have no idea how to do that, and it sounds dangerous. Already swapped RCA cables, and I'd be more upset if it was my DACs RCA output that went out, so will check on that before opening the Darkvoice.


----------



## JKDJedi

It was the capacitor! I had a few LED stored for backup. And was ready to redo the one side that was not lighting up.



I noticed that the one LED would not immediately go out, when switched off. It would slowly burn away. The left LED was just dead. So I switched it on and off to check out the slow burning. Seemed like half a minute or so till the light diminished. Switched out the tube just because....and boom. Booth lights on!

I'm back in business 🙂😁

 Either I have a bad LED or I need to let the capacitor fully unload before rolling another tube. Time will tell.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It was the capacitor! I had a few LED stored for backup. And was ready to redo the one side that was not lighting up.
> 
> 
> I noticed that the one LED would not immediately go out, when switched off. It would slowly burn away. The left LED was just dead. So I switched it on and off to check out the slow burning. Seemed like half a minute or so till the light diminished. Switched out the tube just because....and boom. Booth lights on!
> ...



Wait...the problem occurred until you switched tubes, and then started working right?  I'd suspect the tube, not the capacitor.  And even before the capacitor, I'd suspect a resistor, as there's usually a bleeder resistor to drain off current once the amp is turned off.  If that resistor is open or not performing at the correct value, the LED will stay on longer.  An LED typically works....or doesn't.  Not much in-between with those. 

Methinks you be needin' a tube tester.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Wait...the problem occurred until you switched tubes, and then started working right?  I'd suspect the tube, not the capacitor.  And even before the capacitor, I'd suspect a resistor, as there's usually a bleeder resistor to drain off current once the amp is turned off.  If that resistor is open or not performing at the correct value, the LED will stay on longer.  An LED typically works....or doesn't.  Not much in-between with those.
> 
> Methinks you be needin' a tube tester.


No it's not the tube, or I don't think it is. I did have to glue the base for it not to short out on me, crap, maybe that tube blew out a resistor then. I tried fixing that tube so it wouldn't snap so loud on me...( Smacking my head right now) that has to be it, because the one LED light takes forever to shut off, almost a whole minute. The left LED is just dead now ... Lol...wow...I shot myself in the foot in that one


----------



## bcowen (Jul 12, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> And then my left channel goes out...great,  have an idea what it is, just don't have time to take it apart today. I'm thinking one of the LED lights I put under there went out. If that's not it I read to release any discharge left in the capacitors. o.O I have no idea how to do that, and it sounds dangerous. Already swapped RCA cables, and I'd be more upset if it was my DACs RCA output that went out, so will check on that before opening the Darkvoice.



To bleed small caps like that, get a 5 watt, 1k ohm resistor from Amazon or someplace, preferably a metal can type. Grip the outer can with a pair of insulated pliers or small channel-locks, then bend the wires of the resistor down so they are in position to touch the '+' terminal and the '-' terminal when you hold the resistor with the pliers.  Then just touch the resistor wires to the cap terminals and hold for a few seconds (just keep your fingers off the resistor wires while they are in contact with the cap terminals).  Bleed away.  Again, should only take a few seconds, but always best to check with a DVM afterwards to make sure the voltage is at (or very near) zero.  The resistor itself might get warm (or even hot) which is why it's best to hold it with pliers.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No it's not the tube, or I don't think it is. I did have to glue the base for it not to short out on me, crap, maybe that tube blew out a resistor then. I tried fixing that tube so it wouldn't snap so loud on me...( Smacking my head right now) that has to be it, because the one LED light takes forever to shut off, almost a whole minute. The left LED is just dead now ... Lol...wow...I shot myself in the foot in that one



Somehow "gluing" and "tube bases" in the same sentence sounds unhappy to me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> To bleed small caps like that, get a 5 watt, 1k ohm resistor from Amazon or someplace, preferably a metal can type. Grip the outer can with a pair of insulated pliers or small channel-locks, then bend the wires of the resistor down so they are in position to touch the '+' terminal and the '-' terminal when you hold the resistor with the pliers.  Then just touch the resistor wires to the cap terminals and hold for a few seconds (just keep your fingers off the resistor wires while they are in contact with the cap terminals).  Bleed away.  Again, should only take a few seconds, but always best to check with a DVM afterwards to make sure the voltage is at (or very near) zero.  The resistor itself might get warm (or even hot) which is why it's best to hold it with pliers.


This will be my Hail Mary.. and what does it mean when you get shocked five times and still stick your hand in there ..🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This will be my Hail Mary.. and what does it mean when you get shocked five times and still stick your hand in there ..🤣



It means your body is getting conditioned.  When you can grab a fully charged 1 _*farad*_, 600v cap with your bare fingers, you'll be ready to snatch the pebbles from my hand.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> It means your body is getting conditioned.  When you can grab a fully charged 1 _*farad*_, 600v cap with your bare fingers, you'll be ready to snatch the pebbles from my hand.  LOL!!


L M F A O .. I had a feeling... I went ahead and ordered the resistors there, should be here Tuesday. I'll PM you soon to pick your brain on how this is suppose to go down, because I'm still clueless..(obviously!) If this fails.. well, I might be in the Incubus family tree soon


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O .. I had a feeling... I went ahead and ordered the resistors there, should be here Tuesday. I'll PM you soon to pick your brain on how this is suppose to go down, because I'm still clueless..(obviously!) If this fails.. well, I might be in the Incubus family tree soon



LOL!  If _that _fails, send the amp to me.  I can guarantee you it won't work any less good after I look at it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Get it while it's still hot!!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YS2BL9P/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_IqodFbHC76JYZ


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 15, 2020)

Hopefully she stays on..touch n go . 😁


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, I always use my DAC connected to my old phone (Samsung S4) where I have 64gb of flac music. Today I finally decided to change my phone. I bought the Samsung A10S with a 256GB card. When I called my DAC (Modi Multibit) he believed that the sound improved considerably. I only bought the phone because of the space, and it turned out that the sound quality improved. Funny that I use a music player that has a technology called "perfect bit" that just transfers the music file to the DAC. But now I realized that the phone made a lot of difference. PS: The sound is better than if I use a computer connected to the DAC.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, I always use my DAC connected to my old phone (Samsung S4) where I have 64gb of flac music. Today I finally decided to change my phone. I bought the Samsung A10S with a 256GB card. When I called my DAC (Modi Multibit) he believed that the sound improved considerably. I only bought the phone because of the space, and it turned out that the sound quality improved. Funny that I use a music player that has a technology called "perfect bit" that just transfers the music file to the DAC. But now I realized that the phone made a lot of difference. PS: The sound is better than if I use a computer connected to the DAC.


I'll have to try that tonight.. the PC is probably the worst unit for music. That and AC power. Purist buy battery blocks to power up their equipment. That's one advantage of using your phone. 😉


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'll have to try that tonight.. the PC is probably the worst unit for music. That and AC power. Purist buy battery blocks to power up their equipment. That's one advantage of using your phone. 😉



My phone uses Android. I use a "USB Audio Player PRO" program that has the "perfect bit" function, that is, it transfers the FLAC file, in my case, directly to the DAC without any interference from the phone.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'll have to try that tonight.. the PC is probably the worst unit for music. That and AC power. Purist buy battery blocks to power up their equipment. That's one advantage of using your phone. 😉



I always unplug the laptop when listening.  It's a new laptop so the battery lasts a good couple hours playing music.  And then these for the power.  Help quite a bit as hande-me-downs from the big rig.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I always unplug the laptop when listening.  It's a new laptop so the battery lasts a good couple hours playing music.  And then these for the power.  Help quite a bit as hande-me-downs from the big rig.


And..because I'm a total noob with Conditioners... What ..does that do? Does that convert AC to DC? or runs off DC (DC is battery power right?)


----------



## JKDJedi

A very smooth tube. I'm impressed.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And..because I'm a total noob with Conditioners... What ..does that do? Does that convert AC to DC? or runs off DC (DC is battery power right?)



No, just pair of conditioners. Helps clean some noise out of the power feed. Or, from Shunyatas viewpoint, they help keep noise being generated by your components (especially digital noise from DACs, switch mode power supplies, etc) from adding noise to the AC as it returns through the neutral.  There's been football-field sized cans of worms opened up over this topic through the decades, so I'll just say that I think they make things sound better and leave it at that.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> No, just pair of conditioners. Helps clean some noise out of the power feed. Or, from Shunyatas viewpoint, they help keep noise being generated by your components (especially digital noise from DACs, switch mode power supplies, etc) from adding noise to the AC as it returns through the neutral.  There's been football-field sized cans of worms opened up over this topic through the decades, so I'll just say that I think they make things sound better and leave it at that.


Copy. I'm lucky that I have a quiet outlet. And my amp shares the one outlet to herself. For now 😉, so looking into this. And a year ago I bought one of them USB conditioners, think it was a Schiit product, worked really well, don't know why I sent it back.  And now and days If you have a decent DAC, it has, or should have, a very good USB conditioner/reclocker built in. I can see where a power conditioner can be a handy tool to have.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 17, 2020)

Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Reliatron

Almost forgot how good these were..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Relatron
> 
> Almost forgot how good these were..



I can't believe you still have the Reliatron!  That is a very underrated tube - definitely a hidden gem.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I can't believe you still have the Reliatron!  That is a very underrated tube - definitely a hidden gem.


i stocked up a little on these, not the 1000 tube collection of eh hem.. that one guy, just a few, to hold me over, and not expensive.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> i stocked up a little on these, not the 1000 tube collection of eh hem.. that one guy, just a few, to hold me over, and not expensive.



No not expensive at all.  That is whats so freaking excellent about them!  Lol. Well who knows now at any rate....  Today's 20 dollar tube is tomorrow's 200.....


----------



## JKDJedi

GE 7N7 (short bottle) with Chatham 6080


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> GE 7N7 (short bottle) with Chatham 6080



That 7N7 looks really nice....except for the whole "GE" part of it....


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 17, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> That 7N7 looks really nice....except for the whole "GE" part of it....


Lol...I'm thinking (hoping) it's not a GE, probably built for GE, looks like a Sylvania on the inside, (wishful thinking?) Sounds alright. 😁 Anyways , I got curious about the Schiit EITR and they've been discontinued, and the ones left are half off. Grabbed one.
https://www.schiit.com/b-stocks


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Lol...I'm thinking (hoping) it's not a GE, probably built for GE, looks like a Sylvania on the inside, (wishful thinking?) Sounds alright. 😁 Anyways , I got curious about the Schiit EITR and they've been discontinued, and the ones left are half off. Grabbed one. 😉



I had a semi spirited discussion of the EITR in another forum.  Its worth it to have in my opinion.  Especially at half price.  Like the power conditioner...this helps cleans up your source from the get go.

And no...not a GE really.  All 7n7 were essentially (predominantly) sylvania...or (some) national union. Otherwise youd have some awful sounding 7N7s in the wild.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> GE 7N7 (short bottle) with Chatham 6080



I just threw up.  Now I gotta spend the day cleaning the keyboard on my laptop.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Lol...I'm thinking (hoping) it's not a GE, probably built for GE, looks like a Sylvania on the inside, (wishful thinking?) Sounds alright. 😁 Anyways , I got curious about the Schiit EITR and they've been discontinued, and the ones left are half off. Grabbed one.
> https://www.schiit.com/b-stocks



I have 2 EITR's.  Bought the first one, loved it, and then bought the 2nd one mostly after I learned how EITR was pronounced ('cause it does exactly that). Nobody every claimed audio purchases are _required_ to be rational.    Marked improvement (to my ears) with USB coming out of a laptop.  Maybe not so big a deal with another source, but for a laptop (and probably even a desktop) USB feed, well worth the money IMO.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> And no...not a GE really.  All 7n7 were essentially (predominantly) sylvania...or (some) national union. Otherwise youd have some awful sounding 7N7s in the wild.



That matches my research on these tubes exactly.  I've played around with a couple dozen different versions, short and tall bottle and with various manufacturer logos. Regardless of who the manufacturer was, the tall bottle versions almost universally sound better than any of the short bottle ones.  Perhaps the tall bottles are earlier versions, and the short bottles of later manufacture....cost cutting and all.  But that part is just a guess.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I just threw up.  Now I gotta spend the day cleaning the keyboard on my laptop.


ROFL !! 🤣🤣 I switched it out last night... It wasn't a bad roll, was surprised, and thought this can't be a GE.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That matches my research on these tubes exactly.  I've played around with a couple dozen different versions, short and tall bottle and with various manufacturer logos. Regardless of who the manufacturer was, the tall bottle versions almost universally sound better than any of the short bottle ones.  Perhaps the tall bottles are earlier versions, and the short bottles of later manufacture....cost cutting and all.  But that part is just a guess.


I thought so too, the short bottle have them GTA type plates vs the early tall Tplates of the 6SN7 ( and VT-99)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> ROFL !! 🤣🤣 I switched it out last night... It wasn't a bad roll, was surprised, and thought this can't be a GE.



Your thinking was almost certainly spot on.  I'll bet you that steak dinner that @Paladin79 wants (for the 2nd time ) that GE-labeled 7N7 doesn't have any etched dots on the glass.  Question is whether it was made by Sylvania or National Union, but probably irrelevant as your Frankie will likely stomp all over it either way.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Your thinking was almost certainly spot on.  I'll bet you that steak dinner that @Paladin79 wants (for the 2nd time ) that GE-labeled 7N7 doesn't have any etched dots on the glass. Question is whether it was made by Sylvania or National Union, but probably irrelevant as your Frankie will likely stomp all over it either way.




As we speak..  Morning Roll... Bcowens Frankie & Slades 6080 (Chatham)



Short bottle 58 or 66??


No etched dots...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Your thinking was almost certainly spot on.  I'll bet you that steak dinner that @Paladin79 wants (for the 2nd time ) that GE-labeled 7N7 doesn't have any etched dots on the glass.  Question is whether it was made by Sylvania or National Union, but probably irrelevant as your Frankie will likely stomp all over it either way.


Bill keep Jedi busy while I get on the phone and try to stop a UPS shipment!  GE tubes???


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Bill keep Jedi busy while I get on the phone and try to stop a UPS shipment!  GE tubes???


Not GE Tubes ... Honest!


----------



## bcowen (Jul 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill keep Jedi busy while I get on the phone and try to stop a UPS shipment!  GE tubes???



ROFL!!

I finally got my keyboard cleaned up, but depending on the composition of the spew the patina on the Incubus may be irreparably harmed.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!
> 
> I finally got my keyboard cleaned up, but depending on the composition of the spew the patina on the Incubus may be irreparably harmed.


Well....I don't have a Brimar....not yet anyways 😁


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!
> 
> I finally got my keyboard cleaned up, but depending on the composition of the spew the patina on the Incubus may be irreparably harmed.


The first one is free, after that I start paying attention to the damage you caused the first one and charge accordingly.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The first one is free, after that I start paying attention to the damage you caused the first one and charge accordingly.



I would never put a GE-_*made*_ tube into any component I actually liked, therefore spewage risk is non-existent.  Same goes for Philips-ECG tubes, but I also don't slam my forehead into brick walls just to see how good it feels when I stop.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I would never put a GE-_*made*_ tube into any component I actually liked, therefore spewage risk is non-existent.  Same goes for Philips-ECG tubes, but I also don't slam my forehead into brick walls just to see how good it feels when I stop.


What about a bet with a Philips ECG 6080 I may have one of those around here somewhere but I am not sure I have eight tubes of that style. Figure out which is the Phillips ECG and win or lose a steak dinner and bottle of wine! Once again I would have to buy more tubes so this could get costly again lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> What about a bet with a Philips ECG 6080 I may have one of those around here somewhere but I am not sure I have eight tubes of that style. Figure out which is the Phillips ECG and win or lose a steak dinner and bottle of wine! Once again I would have to buy more tubes so this could get costly again lol.



I'll make this easy and cheap and we can do it with only 2 totally worthless tubes:  a true (etched dot) GE, and a Philips-ECG (_must_ be an ECG -- not sure if a 6080 has blue or green print, but it will be one or the other). One will sound like I stuffed my ears full of cotton balls, and the other will sound like the headphone earcups were outfitted with mini-guns firing Exacto knife blades directly into my eardrums. Only one condition:  you have to clean the spew off the Incubus when I'm done, and be aware that it will be a double layer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2020)

Unfortunately I would have to kick out the Sylvania brand since the Phillips/ECG and Sylvania JAN 6080WC are 
identical. Same ink, same numbers, same internal parts.

 With just two tubes you would have a fifty/fifty change of being right. Once again I would have to use octal extenders cause these tubes are grey at the base, I will give it some thought and get back to you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Unfortunately I would have to kick out the Sylvania brand since the Phillips/ECG and Sylvania JAN 6080WC are identical. Same ink, same numbers, same internal parts.



Interesting.  Makes me wonder if Philips ever made a 6080 with the ECG tag.  Maybe they were all sourced by Sylvania.  That exposed base insulation and gray micanol base looks like definite Sylvania to me.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Unfortunately I would have to kick out the Sylvania brand since the Phillips/ECG and Sylvania JAN 6080WC are
> identical. Same ink, same numbers, same internal parts.
> 
> With just two tubes you would have a fifty/fifty change of being right. Once again I would have to use octal extenders cause these tubes are grey at the base, I will give it some thought and get back to you.


I think I use to have some variation of this tube.. checking the archives


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Unfortunately I would have to kick out the Sylvania brand since the Phillips/ECG and Sylvania JAN 6080WC are
> identical. Same ink, same numbers, same internal parts.
> 
> With just two tubes you would have a fifty/fifty change of being right. Once again I would have to use octal extenders cause these tubes are grey at the base, I will give it some thought and get back to you.



And a 50/50 chance of being wrong.  I'm 'glass half full' kind of guy though.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think I use to have some variation of this tube.. checking the archives



You may have misplaced it last time you moved.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  Makes me wonder if Philips ever made a 6080 with the ECG tag.  Maybe they were all sourced by Sylvania.  That exposed base insulation and gray micanol base looks like definite Sylvania to me.


Philips bought Sylvania correct? 
*Philips 6080 ECG* in the left


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> To bleed small caps like that, get a 5 watt, 1k ohm resistor from Amazon or someplace, preferably a metal can type. Grip the outer can with a pair of insulated pliers or small channel-locks, then bend the wires of the resistor down so they are in position to touch the '+' terminal and the '-' terminal when you hold the resistor with the pliers.  Then just touch the resistor wires to the cap terminals and hold for a few seconds (just keep your fingers off the resistor wires while they are in contact with the cap terminals).  Bleed away.  Again, should only take a few seconds, but always best to check with a DVM afterwards to make sure the voltage is at (or very near) zero.  The resistor itself might get warm (or even hot) which is why it's best to hold it with pliers.


Couldn't you just do the manly thing and short a screwdriver across the cap's contacts?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Couldn't you just do the manly thing and short a screwdriver across the cap's contacts?



Sure could.  Except you might kill a small cap doing that, and you might end up with a permanently welded screwdriver between the terminals of a large cap. But on the plus side, you'd never have to worry about that cap holding a charge that could zap you again.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Sure could.  Except you might kill a small cap doing that, and you might end up with a permanently welded screwdriver between the terminals of a large cap. But on the plus side, you'd never have to worry about that cap holding a charge that could zap you again.


Well, considering my other option was the even more manly "touch the cap to your tongue, like a 9v battery", a welded screwdriver ain't so bad.

@JKDJedi . I see you have a X2, how's they sound with the DV, being all low impedance. I've been tempted to try and find a cheap DV, just for the sake of modding it beyond recognition, but all my cans are low impedance and I'm not sure if they'd match up well/at all (esp. my 400i - which I also see you have)


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 21, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Well, considering my other option was the even more manly "touch the cap to your tongue, like a 9v battery", a welded screwdriver ain't so bad.
> 
> @JKDJedi . I see you have a X2, how's they sound with the DV, being all low impedance. I've been tempted to try and find a cheap DV, just for the sake of modding it beyond recognition, but all my cans are low impedance and I'm not sure if they'd match up well/at all (esp. my 400i - which I also see you have)


They do above average  (the X2), you'd need/want a 5998 and above for it to shine. The 400i.. forget about it. So far..and I'd hate to publicly admit it....the Beyerdynamic is the cats meow with the Darkvoice. Sennheiser excellent for older recordings. This amp does best with high impedance cans for the low end to shine. The resistance pushes the power up, low impedance cans hardly have any resistance so less power is pushed.


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> They do above average  (the X2), you'd need/want a 5998 and above for it to shine. The 400i.. forget about it. So far..and I'd hate to publicly admit it....the Beyerdynamic is the cats meow with the Darkvoice. Sennheiser excellent for older recordings. This amp does best with high impedance cans for the low end to shine. The resistance pushes the power up, low impedance cans hardly have any resistance so less power is pushed.


Yup. That's pretty much the impression I've gotten. The 58x is the highest impedance can I have and even that seems to get pretty lackluster results with OTL from what I've read.
The other amp I've been eyeing is the Hagerman Tuba. It does have a dedicated low impedance output, but probably isn't going to be found for dirt cheap, and I know nothing about EL84 tubes or parafeed circuits.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Yup. That's pretty much the impression I've gotten. The 58x is the highest impedance can I have and even that seems to get pretty lackluster results with OTL from what I've read.
> The other amp I've been eyeing is the Hagerman Tuba. It does have a dedicated low impedance output, but probably isn't going to be found for dirt cheap, and I know nothing about EL84 tubes or parafeed circuits.


I wanted the most out of the HD6XX, reason for the Darkvoice addition. Great pairing.


----------



## SHIMACM

After a long 4 months, my Mullard 6080 arrived. What a good valve! I am impressed with the vocals. Eroded music has never sounded so good. It combined with RCA vt231 gray glass produces an extremely pleasant sound.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi - I didn't have the courage to open and make mods on Darkvoice. I'll leave it the way it is.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 25, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> After a long 4 months, my Mullard 6080 arrived. What a good valve! I am impressed with the vocals. Eroded music has never sounded so good. It combined with RCA vt231 gray glass produces an extremely pleasant sound.





SHIMACM said:


> JKDJedi - I didn't have the courage to open and make mods on Darkvoice. I'll leave it the way it is.


Yes!! Finally!! I was wondering about that combo... Might have to try that later today. Good  choice not opening her up... Having nothing but trouble with mine. It works when it wants too. Probably poor sodder technique from me... 😂 Happy the Mullard finally arrived! Four months....this Virus has messed everything up . Mail takes too long now. 😩
Well, you have it now. ☺

@SHIMACM  What DAC is that? Is the 2 or 3 (Mulitbit?) Oh...just read your sig...Modi Multibit!! Nice.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Yes!! Finally!! I was wondering about that combo... Might have to try that later today. Good  choice not opening her up... Having nothing but trouble with mine. It works when it wants too. Probably poor sodder technique from me... 😂 Happy the Mullard finally arrived! Four months....this Virus has messed everything up . Mail takes too long now. 😩
> Well, you have it now. ☺
> 
> @SHIMACM  What DAC is that? Is the 2 or 3 (Mulitbit?) Oh...just read your sig...Modi Multibit!! Nice.



It's the MODI Multibit. Excellent CAD. I have a MODI 3 too. But Multibit is better. Well hey, I thought the tube wouldn't come anymore. When Ebay expired, the seller contacted me asking if I wanted a refund. I didn't think it was correct, because he would reimburse me and the tube would arrive sometime and the seller would be at a loss. But I took a risk, because today, when I went on ebay to qualify, I saw that the option for qualification simply disappeared, as well as the link for complaints, in case the tube came defective. Thankfully, the tube arrived in perfect condition and is playing wonderfully well.


----------



## SHIMACM

Today my TS5998 arrived. . What a joy to see that it arrived in the original box. Although not tested, the valve is NOS and is working very well.


----------



## SHIMACM (Jul 27, 2020)

Now this is my valve collection. In addition to GEC 6as7g, Bendix 6080 Wb and Melz 1578, which valves would you recommend for my collection? I prefer hot and lush valves, since my phone is the T1 G1.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Today my TS5998 arrived. . What a joy to see that it arrived in the original box. Although not tested, the valve is NOS and is working very well.


Your gonna love that valve on the Darkvoice. Looks to be in Mint shape ... congrats!!


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Now this is my valve collection. In addition to GEC 6as7g, Bendix 6080 Wb and Melz 1578, which valves would you recommend for my collection? I prefer hot and lush valves, since my phone is the T1 G1.


Chatham 6080..


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Chatham 6080..



Do you have any recommendations for 6sn7?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Do you have any recommendations for 6sn7?


So much out there, and we've talked a lot about them here on this thread. The sky's the limit. 😁


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15765719, membro: 467979"]
Tanta coisa por aí, e conversamos muito sobre eles aqui neste tópico. O céu é o limite.😁
[/CITAR]

Rsrs.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> So much out there, and we've talked a lot about them here on this thread. The sky's the limit. 😁



I wanted a little help to define the hot and exuberant 6sn7 that you have already tested. . It makes my life easier. LOL.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 27, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> I wanted a little help to define the hot and exuberant 6sn7 that you have already tested. . It makes my life easier. LOL.


Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with D getter ... Has to have D not O... Reliatron made.... Good luck! I think you'll like this tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with D getter ... Has to have D not O... Reliatron made.... Good luck! I think you'll like this tube a lot.



Was it this one?


----------



## SHIMACM

I think I now understand the question of the getter. I get beat up with English here.


----------



## SHIMACM

It's this one. lol Thanks for the help and sorry for my ignorance.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> It's this one. lol Thanks for the help and sorry for my ignorance.


That's the one! Sorry...I'm here at work... I'd rather be here honestly ..🤣.. that's the one you want.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Was it this one?


These are the O getter... The halo at the top is perfect round.. like a ring.


----------



## SHIMACM

Wonderful my friend. Thank you!


----------



## SHIMACM

Today I heard the TS5998. Now I understand why people love this tube. Very balanced and very rich in details. In fact, it shows an extra layer of music. The combination with Ken Rad vt231 was excellent. Now I will test it with the RCA vt231.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Today I heard the TS5998. Now I understand why people love this tube. Very balanced and very rich in details. In fact, it shows an extra layer of music. The combination with Ken Rad vt231 was excellent. Now I will test it with the RCA vt231.


Pics!!! 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Today I heard the TS5998. Now I understand why people love this tube. Very balanced and very rich in details. In fact, it shows an extra layer of music. The combination with Ken Rad vt231 was excellent. Now I will test it with the RCA vt231.


I read one user dec


SHIMACM said:


> Today I heard the TS5998. Now I understand why people love this tube. Very balanced and very rich in details. In fact, it shows an extra layer of music. The combination with Ken Rad vt231 was excellent. Now I will test it with the RCA vt231.


I like your description of the added layer of music .. it is a special tube.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I wanted a little help to define the hot and exuberant 6sn7 that you have already tested. . It makes my life easier. LOL.



In the Incubus amp, I've been really enjoying the combo of the Mullard 6080 with a pair of round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  Yup, need an adapter for those...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with D getter ... Has to have D not O... Reliatron made.... Good luck! I think you'll like this tube.



2nd that on the Westinghouse.  I can't hear much difference (if any) between the Reliatron branding and without...the important thing is the plate configuration and as Jedi mentioned the D getter.  These can still be found relatively cheaply even with the Reliatron label and can be found for even less at times with alternate brands (I have one labeled Coronado that I paid like $15 for totally NOS, but it's the real deal).


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> 2nd that on the Westinghouse.  I can't hear much difference (if any) between the Reliatron branding and without...the important thing is the plate configuration and as Jedi mentioned the D getter.  These can still be found relatively cheaply even with the Reliatron label and can be found for even less at times with alternate brands (I have one labeled Coronado that I paid like $15 for totally NOS, but it's the real deal).


How could you tell the Coronado was a Westinghouse? IEM code?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> How could you tell the Coronado was a Westinghouse? IEM code?



Can't remember if it has the WH EIA code or not (I'm at the beach right now so can't take a look).   Bought it on Ebay. The seller had a bunch of nicely detailed photos so I was looking at the internal construction which matched up perfectly to the WH's I have. I'll take a pic of it and post this weekend.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Can't remember if it has the WH EIA code or not (I'm at the beach right now so can't take a look).   Bought it on Ebay. The seller had a bunch of nicely detailed photos so I was looking at the internal construction which matched up perfectly to the WH's I have. I'll take a pic of it and post this weekend.


At the beach..... 😒 Well, happy one of us is enjoying the day.. 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> At the beach..... 😒 Well, happy one of us is enjoying the day.. 😁



I'm happy if it makes you happy, but I'm happy regardless...kind of hard to NOT be happy at the beach.


----------



## Mr Trev

This is probably old news to you guys, and waaay off topic, but how cool is this
https://blog.thetubestore.com/the-new-king-of-single-ended-tube-audio/

NOS tubes are surprisingly cheap considering. Just need an adapter


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> In the Incubus amp, I've been really enjoying the combo of the Mullard 6080 with a pair of round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  Yup, need an adapter for those...



I'm avoiding adapters for now. I was kind of traumatized by adapters with my old Little Dot


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> In the Incubus amp, I've been really enjoying the combo of the Mullard 6080 with a pair of round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  Yup, need an adapter for those...



Is this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-E...651452?hash=item288b0e237c:g:kUYAAOxyFiRR2x~R


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Is this one?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-E...651452?hash=item288b0e237c:g:kUYAAOxyFiRR2x~R


No, clear glass. With the oblong solid plate in the middle


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

Breaking in a new DAC for the Darkvoice...😁
Topping D30. (VT-99 & 67' 6H13C Winged C)


----------



## SHIMACM

Boy, you decided to spend it now.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Boy, you decided to spend it now.





SHIMACM said:


> Boy, you decided to spend it now.


I was debating this one or the DX7 Pro. But that one is $300 more. Maybe next year. THe D30 is really good for the monies.
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/topping-d30.22500/reviews


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> Breaking in a new DAC for the Darkvoice...😁
> Topping D30. (VT-99 & 67' 6H13C Winged C)


D30. Nice choice. I've been quite happy with mine. Just wish it had a minimal display showing what sample rate it's running ATM - I'm a tad neurotic about things like that


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> D30. Nice choice. I've been quite happy with mine. Just wish it had a minimal display showing what sample rate it's running ATM - I'm a tad neurotic about things like that


same..almost got the D10 just for that.. you should be able to pop up the driver logo (PC10) and check your sampling rate there..(only mine at the moment is showing I'm unconnected, maybe another reboot? Could be Tidals Exclusive mode..but that shouldn't bother anything, gonna try a reboot real quick))


----------



## SHIMACM

Do you feel a lot of difference between the DACs? I feel very little difference between my MODI multibit ($ 250) and my MODI 3 ($ 99).


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Do you feel a lot of difference between the DACs? I feel very little difference between my MODI multibit ($ 250) and my MODI 3 ($ 99).


Modi 3 is rated high on review (compared to other DACs in same price range), and yes I can tell the difference in DACs. Mostly in stage presence and vocals. I'm debating right now wether to get the RME DAC or a nice set of headphones. Won't happen till my birthday though. (Next year)


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> same..almost got the D10 just for that.. you should be able to pop up the driver logo (PC10) and check your sampling rate there..(only mine at the moment is showing I'm unconnected, maybe another reboot? Could be Tidals Exclusive mode..but that shouldn't bother anything, gonna try a reboot real quick))



I'm kind of looking at the e30. Has a display, theoretically should be an audible upgrade from  the d30. I just don't like that it doesn't have a dedicated power supply.
Also looking at the zen dac, but I'd probably wait to see how the feedback on the MD version goes first.



JKDJedi said:


> Modi 3 is rated high on review (compared to other DACs in same price range), and yes I can tell the difference in DACs. Mostly in stage presence and vocals. I'm debating right now wether to get the RME DAC or a nice set of headphones. Won't happen till my birthday though. (Next year)



Personally, I'd go for the headphones. Most likely will make a bigger impact on sq than a dac would.
…or you could just put the money into modding the beejeezus out of the Darkvoice


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> I'm kind of looking at the e30. Has a display, theoretically should be an audible upgrade from  the d30. I just don't like that it doesn't have a dedicated power supply.
> Also looking at the zen dac, but I'd probably wait to see how the feedback on the MD version goes first.
> 
> 
> ...


😂😂😂 Yes mod it to the bones... What little I did to it really opened her up. The easy USB out was supposed to take some type of negative energy out of the equation, which it did, simple disconnect. And to tighten up things a bit on the 6SN7 socket, instead of the Fitz Mod, (which involved soddering better resistors in place of what's there) I went with the LED Mod.. instead of resistors, use LED. Something about current only able to travel one way with LEDs so anything negative got cancelled out. Something like that.. all I knew was that if done it would result in a cleaner sound. It worked. 😁 Retained the deep bass and warmth of the Darkvoice with added clarity and stage presence.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wishing I was home with my amp... #backtowork


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 Yes mod it to the bones... What little I did to it really opened her up. The easy USB out was supposed to take some type of negative energy out of the equation, which it did, simple disconnect. And to tighten up things a bit on the 6SN7 socket, instead of the Fitz Mod, (which involved soddering better resistors in place of what's there) I went with the LED Mod.. instead of resistors, use LED. Something about current only able to travel one way with LEDs so anything negative got cancelled out. Something like that.. all I knew was that if done it would result in a cleaner sound. It worked. 😁 Retained the deep bass and warmth of the Darkvoice with added clarity and stage presence.



Self-modded amps always sound better even if they don't.

J/K....  

I've modded practically every amp, preamp, and speaker I've had until recently. Haven't attempted mods on any of my Schiit stuff, and I have an amp now that starts with an 'I' and it would likely piss off its creator if I even_ looked _inside.  So I'm being a good boy, 'cause I promised.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Self-modded amps always sound better even if they don't.
> 
> J/K....
> 
> I've modded practically every amp, preamp, and speaker I've had until recently. Haven't attempted mods on any of my Schiit stuff, and I have an amp now that starts with an 'I' and it would likely piss off its creator if I even_ looked _inside.  So I'm being a good boy, 'cause I promised.


Lol... Same, I took the top screws off the thing to take a peak but it felt booby trapped...didn't want to budge at all...said nope..put the screws back in. 🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Lol... Same, I took the top screws off the thing to take a peak but it felt booby trapped...didn't want to budge at all...said nope..put the screws back in. 🤣



I took the transformer cover off and got electrocuted...and the amp wasn't even plugged in.  You were wise.


----------



## Slade01

Alright - got enough burn-in time to have this settle right....running a National Union Gray Glass 6SN7GT (early 40s) with a Chatham 6080WA.  Really is a fantastic combo.  The NU Gray Glass is only a touch lush but instead has alot more resolution - more clarity compared to the RCA Gray Glass.  Definitely worth getting if you see one out there.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2020)

Shameless plug for some oddity tubes that someone here used for comparisons on their Darkvoice....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293678413682
Edit: *SOLD*!!


----------



## JKDJedi

@Deyan adapters have arrived!! Time for some Darkvoice rolling 😁😁


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2020)

National Union 7193 & 5998 .... #ShwInG!


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 8, 2020)

Thanks @Deyan for the great job on these custom adapters. (Dual 6J5G to 6SN7)



 JAN-CHS-6J5GT/G  VT-94D (Best In Class)*
These are insanely GOOD.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 11, 2020)

Wasn't a huge RCA fan (they're quickly growing on me) and maybe it's because of the versions I have/had on hand .. anxious to try out the RCA VT-231 for comparison.
I'm expecting smooth vocals.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 14, 2020)

Pinnacles all weekend 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Pinnacles all weekend 😁



Your adapter is crooked, which will affect the sound.  Just sayin'....


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Pinnacles all weekend 😁


Hey, do you like these and 7193's? I have a pair of 7193 National Unions waiting for me back in my city apartment.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Your adapter is crooked, which will affect the sound.  Just sayin'....


I straitened it ..


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Hey, do you like these and 7193's? I have a pair of 7193 National Unions waiting for me back in my city apartment.


The 7193 NU are ok... need more time with them,

 Now the  JAN-CHS-6J5GT/G .*.AWESOME.. *(don't want to etch it in stone yet but they may be best I've heard so far of all of them, 7N7, 6SN7GT, CV-181,5692,1578, 6H8C...etc)

Gonna do a comparison of the Ken Rad 7193 & the National Union 7193 next week. (and maybe compare them to the 6J5GT Sylvania and Pinnacles 6J5GT as a bonus )


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> The 7193 NU are ok... need more time with them,
> 
> Now the  JAN-CHS-6J5GT/G .*.AWESOME.. *(don't want to etch it in stone yet but they may be best I've heard so far of all of them, 7N7, 6SN7GT, CV-181,5692,1578, 6H8C...etc)
> 
> Gonna do a comparison of the Ken Rad 7193 & the National Union 7193 next week. (and maybe compare them to the 6J5GT Sylvania and Pinnacles 6J5GT as a bonus )


Nice. I never knew that about the 6J5GT/G's. Looking forward to reading your impressions of the Ken Rads later.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> Looking forward to reading your impressions of the Ken Rads later.



Me too. That way I'll know if I need to get some NU's.


----------



## SHIMACM

sennfan83261 said:


> Nice. I never knew that about the 6J5GT/G's. Looking forward to reading your impressions of the Ken Rads later.



Me too. Waiting for prints.


----------



## JKDJedi

Short comparison coming up soon.. per @SHIMACM  request


----------



## JKDJedi

*IBM Tung Sol 5998 & GEC 6AS7G Comparison*

Tidal Tracks  (feeling soulful this morning so I picked some classics)

Someday We'll All Be Free - Donny Hathaway
Summer Madness - Kool & The Gang
Down By The River - Buddy Miles
You've Got A Friend (Live) - Donny Hathaway
Portrait Of A Man - Screamin' Jay Hawkins

Driver Tubes:    RCA VT-231 -  Sylvania 6SN7GT - 6F8G

@SHIMACM did a comparison of the 5998 with the RCA VT-231 and didn't like the over clinical sound of this pairing. The RCA VT-231 is a mid specific tube, and doesn't push that much bass. To cement this thought I pulled out one of my rarely used (meaning I'm saving her for prom night kinda tube)  Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome's for a Sunday morning roll. Let's hear what we get...

o.O Almost sounds the same!! What da!? Stupid headphones never reveal tube swapping... Let me put the Sennheiser on..hold on...  (oh man...Live tracks sound so good on this headphone...)

Where were we..

So the 5998 is somewhat a clinical option that can push a warm driver tube to a neutral position, what can I say.. Lets drop in the GEC...

Well the decay is as smooth as you'll get in a 6AS7G tube.. (The fadeout of a note) rolling the RCA here,  where the 5998 divides the tones to their own separate pockets the GEC molds them all into one tonal balanced act..so smooth. Clearly a non fatiguing tube for the long sessions. The bass guitar on the live track is a joy with the GEC. Donny Hathaway battled severe mental illness, what a shame, such a talent.

One more round of these guys before I call it a day,

(And for funs..we're dropping in the Sylvania 6F8G into the mix)


Interesting... the super warm Sylvania VT-99 is meshing really well with the 5998..who would've thought! It's turned the 5998 into an enjoyable listening experience. This combo could be most users end game use, that good. vocals are smoothed out and instruments harmonize well. nothing harsh here folks.  That guitar solo on the Buddy Miles track.... b l i s s..  The VT-99 has smoothed out the rough edges of that technical edginess the 5998 shown us in the first round. The recording on the You've Got A Friend track has some vocals distortion going on, not the fault of the equipment here, it's the recording, still a beautiful track, with a great message, this tube combination might be best for this recording.  Both headphones great for this combo...good sign!

Up NExt.GEC

wow... what I'm hearing is immediate. Lets see if I can put it into words. Portrait of a Man track, Hawkins bellows out loud throughout this melody of self discovery. i did not realize how abrasive the 5998 was until this roll of the GEC. This has the better bass bar none. If you guys read my write ups before you know my fetish for the bass guitar. This HAS IT. I was raised in a loud Pentecostal church environment, live music every week... this is it. Beautiful.
You've Got A Friend


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> *IBM Tung Sol 5998 & GEC 6AS7G Comparison*
> 
> Tidal Tracks  (feeling soulful this morning so I picked some classics)
> 
> ...



Thanks for the impressions!  Now that you've become instantly addicted to the GEC (perhaps the meth of the tube world?) and have no desire to take it out, I wonder how that 5998 would sound with the CBS/Hytron 5692, as it's definitely a warm-balanced tube.   No hurry.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the impressions!  Now that you've become instantly addicted to the GEC (perhaps the meth of the tube world?) and have no desire to take it out, I wonder how that 5998 would sound with the CBS/Hytron 5692, as it's definitely a warm-balanced tube.   No hurry.


I think the Sylvania VT99 is the warmest tube I have, I'll roll the 5692 if your really interested, the one tube that kinda reminded me of the GEC sound is the Tung Sol 6520, from memory, I rolled that, what, two weeks ago? The VT99 might be a hard one to beat here.I was just comparing the GEC with the 5998, didn't include the 421a or the Bendix 6080WB..now that's deep waters...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think the Sylvania VT99 is the warmest tube I have, I'll roll the 5692 if your really interested, the one tube that kinda reminded me of the GEC sound is the Tung Sol 6520, from memory, I rolled that, what, two weeks ago? The VT99 might be a hard one to beat here.I was just comparing the GEC with the 5998, didn't include the 421a or the Bendix 6080WB..now that's deep waters...



I'll be happy to tell you what you think of the WE 421A once I get mine. LOL!!

I don't have a Sylvie VT99 (so there, @Ripper2860 ).    Honestly, I'm enjoying the Mullard 6080 / TungSol round plate 6J5 combo so much I keep getting delayed in rolling something else. A wise person would just stop and enjoy the music, but I've never made any claims to be such.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'll be happy to tell you what you think of the WE 421A once I get mine. LOL!!
> 
> I don't have a Sylvie VT99 (so there, @Ripper2860 ).    Honestly, I'm enjoying the Mullard 6080 / TungSol round plate 6J5 combo so much I keep getting delayed in rolling something else. A wise person would just stop and enjoy the music, but I've never made any claims to be such.


I know.. lot of options out there. Not enough time to enjoy them all.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I'll be happy to tell you what you think of the WE 421A once I get mine. LOL!!
> 
> I don't have a Sylvie VT99 (so there, @Ripper2860 ).    Honestly, I'm enjoying the Mullard 6080 / TungSol round plate 6J5 combo so much I keep getting delayed in rolling something else. A wise person would just stop and enjoy the music, but I've never made any claims to be such.




I'd be very interested in the WE 421A impression too, especially against Tung Sol 5998, because lots of people think 421A is just a cherry-picked 5998 or basically the same as 5998.

@JKDJedi , you can do the same comparison too, just to verify if the rumour is true. 

Better to ask for some help from the wife and do it with a blind test fashion


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I'd be very interested in the WE 421A impression too, especially against Tung Sol 5998, because lots of people think 421A is just a cherry-picked 5998 or basically the same as 5998.
> 
> @JKDJedi , you can do the same comparison too, just to verify if the rumour is true.
> 
> Better to ask for some help from the wife and do it with a blind test fashion



Unfortunately, I don't have a TS 5998 either. The USPS disappeared that one for me. And to think I'm regularly accused of being a hoarder...just look at all the tubes I _*don't*_ have. Sigh. 

We'll have to depend on @JKDJedi for that comparo.  It's looking like he'll need to schedule a week off from work to get all this done.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I'd be very interested in the WE 421A impression too, especially against Tung Sol 5998, because lots of people think 421A is just a cherry-picked 5998 or basically the same as 5998.
> 
> @JKDJedi , you can do the same comparison too, just to verify if the rumour is true.
> 
> Better to ask for some help from the wife and do it with a blind test fashion


Blind test would be interesting. That one is a huge debate with a thread of its own. I always refer to this tid bit I found in one of them discussions

" One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5"

Now what does that mean to the sound .. 🤔

I could give an honest review now that the Bendix 6080WB has taken the crown in my books as the one to beat...so I wouldn't get so butt hurt about it.


----------



## cddc

Another approach @bcowen only you can do to verify the rumour is to measure the mutual conductances on both 421A and 5998 with the same setting on your tester.

If both are at NOS, they should have similar mutual conductances if they're indeed the same tube, I figure...


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Another approach @bcowen only you can do to verify the rumour is to measure the mutual conductances on both 421A and 5998 with the same setting on your tester.
> 
> If both are at NOS, they should have similar mutual conductances if they're indeed the same tube, I figure...


This!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Blind test would be interesting. That one is a huge debate with a thread of its own. I always refer to this tid bit I found in one of them discussions
> 
> " One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5"
> 
> ...



On paper they have different mutual conductances, but that could well be caused by measuring under different settings. If you increase the plate voltage and grid voltage, you will get a higher measured mutual conductance.

That's why I'm also interested in the mutual conductance measurements if @bcowen ever receives his 5998.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> On paper they have different mutual conductances, but that could well be caused by measuring under different settings. If you increase the plate voltage and grid voltage, you will get a higher measured mutual conductance.
> 
> That's why I'm also interested in the mutual conductance measurements if @bcowen ever receives his 5998.


Might just send him mine to test out.   See if he hears any differences. And I was just gonna sit down with the wifey for some Netflix....you guys are trouble 😂 I'm gonna roll both later...before 8pm my time ...don't stay up for this...


----------



## cddc (Aug 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Blind test would be interesting. That one is a huge debate with a thread of its own. I always refer to this tid bit I found in one of them discussions
> 
> " One major difference is the WE has a transconductance figure of 20,000 micromohs, 1.5 times that of the 5998, at 14,000 micromohs. The amplificatino factor is also a bit higher than the 5998, 6.1 compared to 5.5"
> 
> ...



That's indeed been a huge debate for a long time, and I just wonder why no one has ever tried to strengthen it out.

From a pure tube construction perspective, if two tubes have the same internal construction, they are normally the same tube, regardless of branding. We have all seen all kinds of rebranded tubes, and we know it is true. The most important thing is the internal construction.

And indeed 421A has the same internal structures as 5998....


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Another approach @bcowen only you can do to verify the rumour is to measure the mutual conductances on both 421A and 5998 with the same setting on your tester.
> 
> If both are at NOS, they should have similar mutual conductances if they're indeed the same tube, I figure...



That I could easily do....*if* I had a 5998.    

Interestingly, the Hickok settings are the same for a 421A and a 5998 in one manual:






But list only the 5998 in another:





The first one above is a supplement (read: later publication), so it appears they considered the 421A close enough to the 5998 for hand grenades. What's problematic is the bias settings are different between the two lists -- 4th column over, 27 in the supplement, and 37 in the original settings list. A bias setting difference of 10 is pretty huge...could make a difference of 400 - 500 GM points.  I'll probably go with the (later) supplement setting, which was likely revised for accuracy at some point.  Unfortunately I have no setup data for either a 5998 or 421A (or even a 6080) in the Weston -- only a 6AS7.  But those settings would at least work for a comparative reading if left unchanged between the 2 tubes.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> That I could easily do....*if* I had a 5998.
> 
> Interestingly, the Hickok settings are the same for a 421A and a 5998 in one manual:
> 
> ...



Yes, difference of 10 in bias indeed is huge and can result in significantly different measured transconductances.

So it would be very interesting to see how 421A and 5998 are measured under the same settings.


----------



## cddc

It is pretty weird that they increased the bias by 10 (which is huge as you mentioned), so I figured the old settings was very likely an error.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> That's indeed been a huge debate for a long time, and I just wonder why no one has ever tried to strengthen it out.
> 
> From a pure tube construction perspective, if two tubes have the same internal construction, they are normally the same tube, regardless of branding. We have all seen all kinds of rebranded tubes, and we know it is true. The most important thing is the internal construction.
> 
> And indeed 421A has the same internal structures as 5998....


Yet some Tung Sol 5998 are top getter and some low getter... 🤔


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Yet some Tung Sol 5998 are top getter and some low getter... 🤔



Yes, some TS 5998's have top getter and some have bottom getter. So do the 421A's. I think they have the same internal structures.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm holding both in my hand right now.. they look the same from afar but if you look closely the dimples on the domino plates on the 421a are larger, the mica material are different as well. the space between the top micas are different .. so yeah..similar but different at the same time.. not saying we can't find a tung sol to match perfectly with the 421a..if you have one please share..


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Yes, some TS 5998's have top getter and some have bottom getter. So do the 421A's. I think they have the same internal structures.


We're clearly at opposite  sides here, understandably why the great debate still goes on..now if I honestly here these two the same right now I'll concede..pinky promise.


----------



## cddc (Aug 16, 2020)

There are lots of variants on 5998, and also lots of variants on 421A. Some have grey dimpled plates and some have black dimpled plates. I think it's due to different production years.

Ideally, it would be perfect to compare the 5998 and 421A from similar production years with same construction and look.

Though building materials and design can change a little bit over time, we know their electronic characteristics should remain the same. So their sound might change a little bit, but their measurements should remain the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> There are lots of variants on 5998, and also lots of variants on 421A. Some have grey dimpled plates and some have black dimpled plates. I think it's due to different production years.
> 
> Ideally, it would be perfect to compare the 5998 and 421A from similar production years with same construction and look.
> 
> Though building materials and design can change a little bit over time, but we know their electronic characteristics should remain the same. So the sound might changes a little bit, but their measurements should remain the same.


It's a tough sell I know .. this could go either way, have to go with what we got. I know a few guys here who would go out of their way to get both tubes matched to the week ..I'm not that guy. Anyways...for @bcowen entertainment... The 5692 is doing the driving duties 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It's a tough sell I know .. this could go either way, have to go with what we got. I know a few guys here who would go out of their way to get both tubes matched to the week ..I'm not that guy. Anyways...for @bcowen entertainment... The 5692 is doing the driving duties 😁



LOL!  Hope it drives better than my wife.


----------



## cddc

I once almost got killed by a female driver. She failed to check blind spots when changing lanes and almost hit me at approximately 80mph on highway. I was lucky enough to have that possibly 0.5 second to save myself by sharply steering into the emergency lane...sigh


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Hope it drives better than my wife.


L M F A O  I nearly choked on my water reading that   It does..my Lord..I should have asked you which tube to use before this mornings rolll...VERY NICE


----------



## cddc

We like killer tubes but we should definitely avoid female (killer) drivers....


----------



## JKDJedi

The only Immediate differences I'm hearing right now is the front to back stage depth (421a is deeper front to back).   left to right they're the same.. vocals nearly identical, 

  .the bass seems to bellow farther back on the 421a, the 5998 is more up closer behind (bass impact) 421a slightly wider stage overall. 

These both are more similar than apart, it could be the reported higher gain on the 421a could be giving an illusion of a slightly wider stage area, I tried to my best to volume match these guys throughout this session. There was more space between the instruments with the 421a. Both thoroughly enjoyable. 




Final Thoughts: 
It's hard to argue that the 421a is not a Tung Sol 5998. What it is, from my short studies of it, a tube built (probably by Tung Sol) to a  higher specification for  Wstern Electric. If the 5998 met Western Electrics specifications I'm sure they'd just use a regular 5998. From members here at Headfi, the 5998 to get are the clear tops (bottom getter) type. The Western Electric 421a is , well, a clear top. You do pay a higher premium for the clear top 5998. The 5998 I have is reported as "rare" built for IBM. Supposedly the regular 5998 have shinyblack plates vs the carbon ones as on the Western Electric. As it happens the plates on my IBM 5998 are carbon. Go figure. This was also compared on the Darkvoice. I'd like to compare these two on the Incubus. So if you have a 5998 your in a good spot, it's a great tube.


----------



## cddc

Excellent comparison!

While lots of 421A's are bottom getter clear top, some of them also have top getter opaque top. If we can find people to compare bottom getter clear top 421A vs 5998, and top getter opaque top 421A vs 5998, on an apple to apple base that would be perfect. But the reality is that it's extremely difficult to find such a folk with a large collection of both tubes, especially the 421A. Not sure if the guy with 2 dozens of 5998's has all the 5998 variants 😉. Or we can possibly ask Ken (aka gibosi) to do the 421A vs 5998 comparison, he seems to have a large collection of ALL premium tubes 

I used to see lots of IBM 5998's floating around 8+ years ago, they were not rare at that time. I know IBM bought tons of 5998 tubes from Tung Sol for their computers, they were just run-of-the-mill Tung Sol 5998's. You are possibly very lucky to get a good version, I think. Now, the plate color - I am not sure if black is better or grey is better. Lots of people prefer black-plate tubes, e.g. folks seem to prefer black plates RCA 6AS7G to grey plates ones.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Excellent comparison!
> 
> While lots of 421A's are bottom getter clear top, some of them also have top getter opaque top. If we can find people to compare bottom getter clear top 421A vs 5998, and top getter opaque top 421A vs 5998, on an apple to apple base that would be perfect. But the reality is that it's extremely difficult to find such a folk with a large collection of both tubes, especially the 421A. Not sure if the guy with 2 dozens of 5998's has all the 5998 variants 😉. Or we can possibly ask Ken (aka gibosi) to do the 421A vs 5998 comparison, he seems to have a large collection of ALL premium tubes
> 
> I used to see lots of IBM 5998's floating around 8+ years ago, they were not rare at that time. I know IBM bought tons of 5998 tubes from Tung Sol for their computers, they were just run-of-the-mill Tung Sol 5998's. You are possibly very lucky to get a good version, I think. Now, the plate color - I am not sure if black is better or grey is better. Lots of people prefer black-plate tubes, e.g. folks seem to prefer black plates RCA 6AS7G to grey plates ones.


I know just the member to ask now that I think about it. They have clear top Tung Sol's and a handful of the Western Electric the same.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2020)

cddc said:


> Excellent comparison!
> 
> While lots of 421A's are bottom getter clear top, some of them also have top getter opaque top. If we can find people to compare bottom getter clear top 421A vs 5998, and top getter opaque top 421A vs 5998, on an apple to apple base that would be perfect. But the reality is that it's extremely difficult to find such a folk with a large collection of both tubes, especially the 421A. Not sure if the guy with 2 dozens of 5998's has all the 5998 variants 😉. Or we can possibly ask Ken (aka gibosi) to do the 421A vs 5998 comparison, he seems to have a large collection of ALL premium tubes
> 
> I used to see lots of IBM 5998's floating around 8+ years ago, they were not rare at that time. I know IBM bought tons of 5998 tubes from Tung Sol for their computers, they were just run-of-the-mill Tung Sol 5998's. You are possibly very lucky to get a good version, I think. Now, the plate color - I am not sure if black is better or grey is better. Lots of people prefer black-plate tubes, e.g. folks seem to prefer black plates RCA 6AS7G to grey plates ones.


I didn't think much of the IBM 5998 like you did, until a member pointed them out as rare...they were probably just being sarcastic about them 😂. They do sound good. Do you have a 5998? And the GEC to my ears is a SMOOTH CRIMINAL. Love the distinct sound of that tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

Excellent JKDJedi comparisons. But anyway, for your musical tastes, do you prefer the TS5998 or the GEC 6as7g on Darkvoice? If you could have only one of these tubes, which one would you choose? In a comparison of 1 to 4 in order of preference how would you list the tubes TS 5998, WE 421a, GEC 6as7g and Bendix 6080 on Darkvoice?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Excellent JKDJedi comparisons. But anyway, for your musical tastes, do you prefer the TS5998 or the GEC 6as7g on Darkvoice? If you could have only one of these tubes, which one would you choose? In a comparison of 1 to 4 in order of preference how would you list the tubes TS 5998, WE 421a, GEC 6as7g and Bendix 6080 on Darkvoice?


I'll have to PM you that list.. just to prevent any arrows shot my way .😉


----------



## JKDJedi

Here's some of my Western Electric 421a source material found online...

This tube is end of the road for people that have amps that use 6as7 or 5998. There are a lot of discussions on the web about this tube and that it’s just a re-brand of Tung-Sol 5998. I have to state with absolute certainty that this is not a re-brand, but a very unique tube. It has a few similarities with 5998, for example plate structure looks the same, but there are a lot of things that are quite different. First, getter is located on the bottom for WE where Tung-sol has the getter on the top (this might seem as a small thing, but it is actually quite important since getter material, despite third mica gets all over the place during application and since Barium is a metal, it reduces tube performance). Second, plate color is different with WE having carbon black plates instead of shiny black like Tung-sol. Thirst and the most important, the sound is different. The general sonic signature is similar, but WE exhibits better bass response and overall dynamics and adds much more air and layers of details to the sound. These are getting very rare by minute and becoming extremely expensive. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2020)

And a respectable member here shared his thoughts about it this morning with me...

"Western Electric's data sheet refers to their tube as a "5998/421A", while Tung-Sol's data sheet simply refers to their tube as a "5998". So both tubes were considered 5998's. And sometimes you will even see "5998" printed on the base of a 421A. But if you check the data sheets, there are some differences, most notably, transconductance, nominally 14,000 for TS's 5998 and 20,000 for WE's 5998/421A.
"It appears to me that Western Electric manufactured the "cage" used on the 421A and also sold these cages to Tung Sol / Chatham for use in their 5998. The cage is a subassembly which includes the top and bottom mica spacers, the plates and support rods. So both of these tubes have the famous "domino plates" manufactured by WE. And this line of thinking is supported by the fact that Western Electric continued to manufacture the 421A several years after Tung-Sol ceased making vacuum tubes. But the cathodes and grids used by both companies were different. If you closely examine these tubes, you can see these differences below the bottom mica. And the different grids and cathodes are likely the primary reason that the transconductance value is different".


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I didn't think much of the IBM 5998 like you did, until a member pointed them out as rare...they were probably just being sarcastic about them 😂. They do sound good. Do you have a 5998? And the GEC to my ears is a SMOOTH CRIMINAL. Love the distinct sound of that tube.




I have GEC 6080, Mullard 6080, RCA 6080/6AS7G, Tung Sol 6080/6AS7G, GE 6080/6AS7GA, Sylvania 6080, Winged C, etc, but I am not a fan of any of these aforementioned tubes. I am mostly on my Sylvania 7236, sometimes Bendix slotted graphite for a change of taste, that's mainly because I prefer fast tight accurate SS-like tube sound (but without the SS harshness). I'll try to get one or two 5998 just to see where they're placed.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I have GEC 6080, Mullard 6080, RCA 6080/6AS7G, Tung Sol 6080/6AS7G, GE 6080/6AS7GA, Sylvania 6080, Winged C, etc, but I am not a fan of any of these aforementioned tubes. I am mostly on my Sylvania 7236, sometimes Bendix slotted graphite for a change of taste, that's mainly because I prefer fast tight accurate SS-like tube sound (but without the SS harshness). I'll try to get one or two 5998 just to see where they're placed.


Sylvania 7236 is a quiet favorite of mine .. super clean and dynamic. Bendix is new to me, quickly grabbing top spot, crazy headroom zing's and zangs with those. I'd love to have a GEC 6080. Nice collection there. 😁


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Sylvania 7236 is a quiet favorite of mine .. super clean and dynamic. Bendix is new to me, quickly grabbing top spot, crazy headroom zing's and zangs with those. I'd love to have a GEC 6080. Nice collection there. 😁



Thanks...but you've already got a holy grail GEC 6AS7G, and GEC 6080 would be something very similar...

But if you happen to see a steal kind of deal, go for it


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'll have to PM you that list.. just to prevent any arrows shot my way .😉



Chicken.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Chicken.


----------



## bcowen

Could it be?  Really?  This is the 421A I bought Saturday morning. Seriously?  

Nah, they're just screwing with me.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Could it be?  Really?  This is the 421A I bought Saturday morning. Seriously?
> 
> Nah, they're just screwing with me.


Hallelujah 🙌 It's in Da Mail!!! Please give intial impressions here....we want an exclusive!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Hallelujah 🙌 It's in Da Mail!!! Please give intial impressions here....we want an exclusive!!



You'll have to PM me....arrows and all.  LOLOL!!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> And a respectable member here shared his thoughts about it this morning with me...
> 
> "Western Electric's data sheet refers to their tube as a "5998/421A", while Tung-Sol's data sheet simply refers to their tube as a "5998". So both tubes were considered 5998's. And sometimes you will even see "5998" printed on the base of a 421A. But if you check the data sheets, there are some differences, most notably, transconductance, nominally 14,000 for TS's 5998 and 20,000 for WE's 5998/421A.
> "It appears to me that Western Electric manufactured the "cage" used on the 421A and also sold these cages to Tung Sol / Chatham for use in their 5998. The cage is a subassembly which includes the top and bottom mica spacers, the plates and support rods. So both of these tubes have the famous "domino plates" manufactured by WE. And this line of thinking is supported by the fact that Western Electric continued to manufacture the 421A several years after Tung-Sol ceased making vacuum tubes. But the cathodes and grids used by both companies were different. If you closely examine these tubes, you can see these differences below the bottom mica. And the different grids and cathodes are likely the primary reason that the transconductance value is different".




I read it again, and I feel like it is sort of unlikely that the WE supplied "cage" came without cathodes and grids installed. The space between the 5998/421A plates is pretty tight, it would be very difficult to stick in the cathode and grid assembly between plates. I think it would be much easier for the workers to assemble the cathode and grid assembly first and then enclose it with 2 plates. Can the difference in cathode and grid be caused by different proudction years / batches?

It's also the first time that I read that WE supplied components to TS for 5998 / 421A production. I used to read that WE designed the 421A / 5998 tube but Tung Sol actually manufactured all those tubes for WE and itself.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You'll have to PM me....arrows and all.  LOLOL!!


😒 Why am I not laughing....


----------



## cddc

Here is a video that shows how tubes were assembled in Mullard Blackburn factory:

Mullard - The Blackburn Vacuum Tubes Factory (Full)


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> 😒 Why am I not laughing....



A chicken won't laugh at another chicken...


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I read it again, and I feel like it is sort of unlikely that the WE supplied "cage" came without cathodes and grids installed. The space between the 5998/421A plates is pretty tight, it would be very difficult to stick in the cathode and grid assembly between plates. I think it would be much easier for the workers to assemble the cathode and grid assembly first and then enclose it with 2 plates. Can the difference in cathode and grid be caused by different proudction years / batches?
> 
> It's also the first time that I read that WE supplied components to TS for 5998 / 421A production. I used to read that WE designed the 421A / 5998 tube but Tung Sol actually manufactured all those tubes for WE and itself.


Who knows really...if we could go back 70 years... They sound awesome, let's go with that. 🙂


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Here is a video that shows how tubes were assembled in Mullard Blackburn factory:
> 
> Mullard - The Blackburn Vacuum Tubes Factory (Full)


I saw one at one of them Russian plants, kinda cool how they made the glass.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> A chicken won't laugh at another chicken...



Why am *I* now not laughing?  Damn, I hope this isn't contagious.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Why am *I* now not laughing?  Damn, I hope this isn't contagious.


😂.. ok.. so your in the 421a club.  Congrats.. 🙂


----------



## bcowen

Well, the USPS wasn't messing with me. I'm not sure what to think.  

It be here, even in an original WE box.  Tests OK, but is definitely not NOS. Seller advertised it as used/untested, so no false advertising on his part. No shorts, leakage undetectable. With the bias set at 27 (which is the dual listing for the 421A/5998), raw reading is 700 on the first triode and 725 on the other. 20X multiplier in play, so 14,000 and 14,500. Min. is 425 / 8500, so still a good strong tube, but well short of a 20k mhos reading for NOS. Now if I go to the 37 bias setting, the readings change altogether with a big spread between the triodes: (500/10,000 and 675/13,500). Strange. Would make more sense if they both decreased proportionally. I think I'll go with the 27 bias setting values 'cause I like them better.  

Am I reading that date code correctly as the 13th week of 1961?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, the USPS wasn't messing with me. I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> It be here, even in an original WE box.  Tests OK, but is definitely not NOS. Seller advertised it as used/untested, so no false advertising on his part. No shorts, leakage undetectable. With the bias set at 27 (which is the dual listing for the 421A/5998), raw reading is 700 on the first triode and 725 on the other. 20X multiplier in play, so 14,000 and 14,500. Min. is 425 / 8500, so still a good strong tube, but well short of a 20k mhos reading for NOS. Now if I go to the 37 bias setting, the readings change altogether with a big spread between the triodes: (500/10,000 and 675/13,500). Strange. Would make more sense if they both decreased proportionally. I think I'll go with the 27 bias setting values 'cause I like them better.
> 
> Am I reading that date code correctly as the 13th week of 1961?


I believe that's correct on the date code .. beautiful tube there. 👍


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Well, the USPS wasn't messing with me. I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> It be here, even in an original WE box.  Tests OK, but is definitely not NOS. Seller advertised it as used/untested, so no false advertising on his part. No shorts, leakage undetectable. With the bias set at 27 (which is the dual listing for the 421A/5998), raw reading is 700 on the first triode and 725 on the other. 20X multiplier in play, so 14,000 and 14,500. Min. is 425 / 8500, so still a good strong tube, but well short of a 20k mhos reading for NOS. Now if I go to the 37 bias setting, the readings change altogether with a big spread between the triodes: (500/10,000 and 675/13,500). Strange. Would make more sense if they both decreased proportionally. I think I'll go with the 27 bias setting values 'cause I like them better.
> 
> Am I reading that date code correctly as the 13th week of 1961?



Wow, you really scored! The 421A looks pretty new, and it even came with the original box. It looks like a new tube or at least lightly used tube to me.

Maybe the tube should be tested around 14,000 uMhos using 5998 settings, which are NOS values. 

That's what I said earlier - WE 421A shows 20,000 uMhos only on paper, because that higher transconductance is likely achieved by using higher testing plate voltage and grid voltage. If you test it with the same plate voltage and grid voltage as 5998's, you'll likely get similar measured transconductance for both of them. However, this is yet to be verified until you receive your 5998, let's hope the lost 5998 will someday show up or you can score another 5998 tube.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I believe that's correct on the date code .. beautiful tube there. 👍




I think so too, 13th week of 1961.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Wow, you really scored! The 421A looks pretty new, and it even came with the original box. It looks like a new tube or at least lightly used tube to me.
> 
> Maybe the tube should be tested around 14,000 uMhos using 5998 settings, which are NOS values.
> 
> That's what I said earlier - WE 421A shows 20,000 uMhos only on paper, because that higher transconductance is likely achieved by using higher testing plate voltage and grid voltage. If you test it with the same plate voltage and grid voltage as 5998's, you'll likely get similar measured transconductance for both of them. However, this is yet to be verified until you receive your 5998, let's hope the lost 5998 will someday show up or you can score another 5998 tube.



I'll have to score another 5998...already received my money back for the first one which went missing over 3 months ago. I'll keep my eyes peeled as I'm interested in seeing how these test against each other as well.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Well, the USPS wasn't messing with me. I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> It be here, even in an original WE box.  Tests OK, but is definitely not NOS. Seller advertised it as used/untested, so no false advertising on his part. No shorts, leakage undetectable. With the bias set at 27 (which is the dual listing for the 421A/5998), raw reading is 700 on the first triode and 725 on the other. 20X multiplier in play, so 14,000 and 14,500. Min. is 425 / 8500, so still a good strong tube, but well short of a 20k mhos reading for NOS. Now if I go to the 37 bias setting, the readings change altogether with a big spread between the triodes: (500/10,000 and 675/13,500). Strange. Would make more sense if they both decreased proportionally. I think I'll go with the 27 bias setting values 'cause I like them better.
> 
> Am I reading that date code correctly as the 13th week of 1961?




You mentioned earlier that bias = 27 is the newer setting, so I think they updated the bias from 37 (old) to 27 (new) for a reason. Maybe tubes under bias 37 are not stable or it will give wrong results, it would possibly explain for the unevenness. 

Anyway, sticking with the updated 27 bias should give you more reliable measured transconductance.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> You mentioned earlier that bias = 27 is the newer setting, so I think they updated the bias from 37 (old) to 27 (new) for a reason. Maybe tubes under bias 37 are not stable or it will give wrong results, it would possibly explain for the unevenness.
> 
> Anyway, sticking with the updated 27 bias should give you more reliable measured transconductance.



Agree.  27 it is.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Agree.  27 it is.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> And a respectable member here shared his thoughts about it this morning with me...
> 
> "Western Electric's data sheet refers to their tube as a "5998/421A", while Tung-Sol's data sheet simply refers to their tube as a "5998". So both tubes were considered 5998's. And sometimes you will even see "5998" printed on the base of a 421A. But if you check the data sheets, there are some differences, most notably, transconductance, nominally 14,000 for TS's 5998 and 20,000 for WE's 5998/421A.
> "It appears to me that Western Electric manufactured the "cage" used on the 421A and also sold these cages to Tung Sol / Chatham for use in their 5998. The cage is a subassembly which includes the top and bottom mica spacers, the plates and support rods. So both of these tubes have the famous "domino plates" manufactured by WE. And this line of thinking is supported by the fact that Western Electric continued to manufacture the 421A several years after Tung-Sol ceased making vacuum tubes. But the cathodes and grids used by both companies were different. If you closely examine these tubes, you can see these differences below the bottom mica. And the different grids and cathodes are likely the primary reason that the transconductance value is different".




Just watched the Mullard factory video again, as it is very interesting one for tube addicts.

The assembly with top mica and bottom mica and everything in between (heaters, cathodes, grids, and plates) is called a "cage". And it is impossible to stick in a cathode grid assembly once the top mica is fixed in place.

The way how a tube is assembled: 1. they place the bottom mica on a stable metal platform; 2. then cathode assemblies (heaters are preloaded inside the cathodes) are inserted into the pre-punched holes on bottom mica; 3. they insert the grid assemblies (2 grid rods and grid wire wound around them) into the grid holes on bottom mica; 4. they insert the plates in the plate holes on bottom mica; 5. they place the top mica and fold all tabs so that all components are fixed in place. This assembled unit is called a "cage", and nothing is moveable inside the "case", everything is fixed in place by tabs.

So once the top mica is placed and fixed in place, it is IMPOSSIBLE to insert any cathode or grid in between the top and bottom mica anymore.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Just watched the Mullard factory video again, as it is very interesting one for tube addicts.
> 
> The assembly with top mica and bottom mica and everything in between (heaters, cathodes, grids, and plates) is called a "cage". And it is impossible to stick in a cathode grid assembly once the top mica is fixed in place.
> 
> ...


Think we got that, should I watch it to verify or can we take your word for it


----------



## JKDJedi

Watched some of it just now...yes...that would be kinda hard to put in there after the fact .. cool video... Will finish watching after dinner.. thanks for the link 🙂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



                      

What, I'm supposed to _listen_ to it too?  I just got it to test. My work is done.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> What, I'm supposed to _listen_ to it too?  I just got it to test. My work is done.


Lol!! C'mon..... Don't stash it next to the Fotons.....use the thing! 😂


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2020)

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/price-drop-western-electric-421as-nos-nib.907974/

This guy got more than 1400 on his tests...on a calibrated tester. Not sure what it means but seems like it matters. he used 5998 settings... does that shed some light to the testing questions? 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/price-drop-western-electric-421as-nos-nib.907974/
> 
> This guy got more than 1400 on his tests...on a calibrated tester. Not sure what it means but seems like it matters. he used 5998 settings... does that shed some light to the testing questions? 🤔



Kind of not really.   He's using a Heathkit TT-1A which has a very similar design to the venerable Triplett 3444.  Both those testers can run higher voltages to the plates than my Hickok, so the higher readings he's getting could be due to that.  The only way to correlate them would be either for him to test a 5998 and see how it reads, or for me to send him my 421A and see what numbers he gets on his Heathkit.  I'll have to guess that it would read a little higher 'cause I'm not sending it to him.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Kind of not really.   He's using a Heathkit TT-1A which has a very similar design to the venerable Triplett 3444.  Both those testers can run higher voltages to the plates than my Hickok, so the higher readings he's getting could be due to that.  The only way to correlate them would be either for him to test a 5998 and see how it reads, or for me to send him my 421A and see what numbers he gets on his Heathkit.  I'll have to guess that it would read a little higher 'cause I'm not sending it to him.  LOL!


Does you 421a have O getters? I just read that early 60's has D getters? 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Does you 421a have O getters? I just read that early 60's has D getters? 🤔



Yup.  Double-D getters.  My favorite.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Double-D getters.  My favorite.


😒 Little jelly ... On the hunt!! 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

Took the day off and all I have coming in are Fotons 😒


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 19, 2020)

These are some interesting tubes to roll on the Darkvoice. Tung Sol 6J5 
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html?m=1


----------



## Mr Trev (Aug 19, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> These are some interesting tubes to roll on the Darkvoice. Tung Sol 6J5
> http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html?m=1



Bah, metal cans.
If you can't see 'em glow… …sorry. I can't think of any
good rhyme to end with


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Bah, metal cans.
> If you can't see 'em glow… …sorry. I can't think of any
> good rhyme to end with



If you can't see 'em glow,
pretty good chance they totally blow.
Great big chunks with a side of spew,
Stay far, far away, I'm tellin' you.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Bah, metal cans.
> If you can't see 'em glow… …sorry. I can't think of any
> good rhyme to end with





bcowen said:


> If you can't see 'em glow,
> pretty good chance they totally blow.
> Great big chunks with a side of spew,
> Stay far, far away, I'm tellin' you.


😁


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> If you can't see 'em glow,
> Pretty good chance they totally blow,


Unless you possess one La Figaro*.

*RCA 5693


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> Unless you possess one La Figaro*.
> 
> *RCA 5693



A p-p-p-pentode? Horrors! Give me a GE, any GE. **

** except a GE pentode.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A p-p-p-pentode? Horrors! Give me a GE, any GE. **
> 
> ** except a GE pentode.


I do have a special GE that I was double dared to send you ....🤔hmmmm should I? 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I do have a special GE that I was double dared to send you ....🤔hmmmm should I? 😁



The only 'special' GE tubes I'm aware of are those that were made by another manufacturer and labeled as GE's.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> A p-p-p-pentode? Horrors! Give me a GE, any GE. **
> 
> ** except a GE pentode.


Heh, I was just going by the borg recommendation with regards to aftermarket replacements to stock OTK 2's. For some reason your poetry made me think of them, lol. I don't own a La Figaro myself, although I had a passing interest at one time. However, that interest faded away awhile ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Heh, I was just going by the borg recommendation with regards to aftermarket replacements to stock OTK 2's. For some reason your poetry made me think of them, lol. I don't own a La Figaro myself, although I had a passing interest at one time. However, that interest faded away awhile ago.


Same here, La Figaro still looks interesting. I do have to build a Bottlehead Crack..just ONE TIME!


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Wow, you really scored! The 421A looks pretty new, and it even came with the original box. It looks like a new tube or at least lightly used tube to me.
> 
> Maybe the tube should be tested around 14,000 uMhos using 5998 settings, which are NOS values.
> 
> That's what I said earlier - WE 421A shows 20,000 uMhos only on paper, because that higher transconductance is likely achieved by using higher testing plate voltage and grid voltage. If you test it with the same plate voltage and grid voltage as 5998's, you'll likely get similar measured transconductance for both of them. However, this is yet to be verified until you receive your 5998, let's hope the lost 5998 will someday show up or you can score another 5998 tube.



This one is worth a major roll around on the floor laughing. This is the long lost TS 5998. Fortunately, the Post Office finally had time to look for it....almost 3 full months later.  

And US taxpayers should give them $25 billion to keep going?  Why?  Would that help my mail-in ballot deliver before Christmas?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This one is worth a major roll around on the floor laughing. This is the long lost TS 5998. Fortunately, the Post Office finally had time to look for it....almost 3 full months later.
> 
> And US taxpayers should give them $25 billion to keep going?  Why?  Would that help my mail-in ballot deliver before Christmas?


That's too funny!!! Wow... Crazy...


----------



## JKDJedi

Huge thanks to @bcowen for lending me the pair of Ken Rad 7193 (1942). We were both curious on comparisons to my National Union 7193.(1945?) These are similar to the 6J5 type tubes with only one triode. You would need a dual to single adapter for these guys. I'm not the first guy here to post about these curious little "Minions". Not sure what the deal is with the dual caps at the top of each tube, something you don't see everyday when surfing the Headfi forums for sure.  For power (6as7g) duties I went with my everyday RCA (Cunningham) 6AS7G. Lets get to the short comparison here.


The Ken-rads have a 4 leaf shaped mica, top and bottom. the getter flash extends from the bottom a bit, maybe ankle height, or to the bottom mica. The National Unions micas are round with 8 little spikes evenly spread around the mica, top and bottom. getter flash is non visible. 

Easy To Be Hard (Single Version) - Three Dog Night (was used very well in the opening credits of the (2007) motion picture ZODIAC)  

I can't pick a winner here, they both sound natural with sweet vocals. I was about to give the Nationals the edge and on 2nd round of listening the Ken Rads proved themselves as probably the front runner here. . What I think is giving the Ken Rad the edge is the intimacy on certain tracks (meaning it invoked the stronger emotion). You couldn't go wrong with either one.


----------



## lalawilson168

Hey guys I recently got a DV 336se from drop and sounds lovely out of the box on stock tubes. Used it for 3 weeks and suddenly stopped working and just a loud hum on the left channel without music playing. I do notice the power tube stopped glowing. Has anyone experienced that? I understand these tubes have a limited life span but 3 weeks is a bit short? I have emailed drop let's see what they come back with. Any replacement tubes under 50 usd you'd recommend for someone who's just starting out using this puppy?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Aug 26, 2020)

lalawilson168 said:


> Hey guys I recently got a DV 336se from drop and sounds lovely out of the box on stock tubes. Used it for 3 weeks and suddenly stopped working and just a loud hum on the left channel without music playing. I do notice the power tube stopped glowing. Has anyone experienced that? I understand these tubes have a limited life span but 3 weeks is a bit short? I have emailed drop let's see what they come back with. Any replacement tubes under 50 usd you'd recommend for someone who's just starting out using this puppy?


The stock power tube is crap anyways. Good starter power tubes include the RCA 6AS7G ($20-30) and the Tung-Sol 7236 (~$40-50). You can find both of them on ebay. If your DV blows out the replacement power tube, you should probably start thinking about RMA'ing the amp back to Drop.


----------



## JKDJedi

lalawilson168 said:


> Hey guys I recently got a DV 336se from drop and sounds lovely out of the box on stock tubes. Used it for 3 weeks and suddenly stopped working and just a loud hum on the left channel without music playing. I do notice the power tube stopped glowing. Has anyone experienced that? I understand these tubes have a limited life span but 3 weeks is a bit short? I have emailed drop let's see what they come back with. Any replacement tubes under 50 usd you'd recommend for someone who's just starting out using this puppy?


PM sent.. also check the fuse. And welcome to the Thread. 🙂


----------



## bcowen (Aug 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Huge thanks to @bcowen for lending me the pair of Ken Rad 7193 (1942). We were both curious on comparisons to my National Union 7193.(1945?) These are similar to the 6J5 type tubes with only one triode. You would need a dual to single adapter for these guys. I'm not the first guy here to post about these curious little "Minions". Not sure what the deal is with the dual caps at the top of each tube, something you don't see everyday when surfing the Headfi forums for sure.  For power (6as7g) duties I went with my everyday RCA (Cunningham) 6AS7G. Lets get to the short comparison here.
> 
> 
> The Ken-rads have a 4 leaf shaped mica, top and bottom. the getter flash extends from the bottom a bit, maybe ankle height, or to the bottom mica. The National Unions micas are round with 8 little spikes evenly spread around the mica, top and bottom. getter flash is non visible.
> ...



Sigh.  So I have to get some NU's and make up my own mind?  I was really hoping you'd make this easy.      

Oh, and guess what showed up in my mailbox today....from Bulgaria. LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  So I have to get some NU's and make up my own mind?  I was really hoping you'd make this easy.
> 
> Oh, and guess what showed up in my mailbox today....from Bulgaria. LOL!


It wasn't easy 🙂. NU are cheap by today's standards. I was sitting there for two hours, three rounds between these two .. I personally like the 6J5 over these.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It wasn't easy 🙂. NU are cheap by today's standards. I was sitting there for two hours, three rounds between these two .. I personally like the 6J5 over these.



Oh, just great.  Way to buzzkill my latest adapter arrival.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Oh, just great.  Way to buzzkill my latest adapter arrival.


😂😂.. no I meant they're the Best!!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> A p-p-p-pentode? Horrors! Give me a GE, any GE. **
> 
> ** except a GE pentode.


Dude! Don't be an anti-pentodite. Why the hate?
I'm seriously asking… I have no idea what's the difference between pentode and triode, soundwise.
<btw, I couldn't help but read your post in Shaggy's voice. Zoinks>


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 27, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Dude! Don't be an anti-pentodite. Why the hate?
> I'm seriously asking… I have no idea what's the difference between pentode and triode, soundwise.
> <btw, I couldn't help but read your post in Shaggy's voice. Zoinks>


https://robrobinette.com/How_Tubes_Work.htm  Triode has three parts inside to make it work, Pentode has five parts ..


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> https://robrobinette.com/How_Tubes_Work.htm  Triode has three parts inside to make it work, Pentode has five parts ..


Stop trying to confuse me with science, I knew that part. That's why I mentioned "soundwise"


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 27, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Stop trying to confuse me with science, I knew that part. That's why I mentioned "soundwise"


I'll probably never know soundwise with the pentode... (I had to look that up myself, I knew what we use here involved single and dual triode tubes, just wasn't all the way sure what triode was or meant). plates, cathode, and grid = triode!!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Dude! Don't be an anti-pentodite. Why the hate?
> I'm seriously asking… I have no idea what's the difference between pentode and triode, soundwise.
> <btw, I couldn't help but read your post in Shaggy's voice. Zoinks>



I don't hate pentodes...I just love triodes.    

Triodes have a more 3-D, lifelike, and 'tubey-er' presentation to my ears. As well, some of the purity of the sound is diminished with a pentode -- in exchange for more power. I've had a couple different amps that allowed switching between triode and pentode mode, and even running a pentode tube like an EL-34 in triode mode (got that? LOL) sounded better than running the same tube in pentode mode. Less power, but better sound. There are references to SET (Single-Ended Triode) amps on a regular basis, but do you ever see anything about an SE*P* amp?  

(my Jota amp in the big rig is an SET, and it's my mostest favoritest (loudspeaker) amp of anything I've ever had)


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I don't hate pentodes...I just love triodes.
> 
> Triodes have a more 3-D, lifelike, and 'tubey-er' presentation to my ears. As well, some of the purity of the sound is diminished with a pentode -- in exchange for more power. I've had a couple different amps that allowed switching between triode and pentode mode, and even running a pentode tube like an EL-34 in triode mode (got that? LOL) sounded better than running the same tube in pentode mode. Less power, but better sound. There are references to SET (Single-Ended Triode) amps on a regular basis, but do you ever see anything about an SE*P* amp?
> 
> (my Jota amp in the big rig is an SET, and it's my mostest favoritest (loudspeaker) amp of anything I've ever had)



Thanks.
Good to know stuff like this. Beats my prior method of choosing gear by how cool it looks - seriously, how awesome would it be if Bang & Olufsen made tube amps though.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Thanks.
> Good to know stuff like this. Beats my prior method of choosing gear by how cool it looks - seriously, how awesome would it be if Bang & Olufsen made tube amps though.



Can't argue with that LOL!  Love the look of B&O stuff...too bad it sounds about like Bose.  

Of all the speaker amps I've had, I loved the looks of these most. Not my pic below, but the same amps (and that picture doesn't do them justice -- that Jaguar red paint had several coats of clearcoat on top and shined like a mutha').  These amps were switchable between triode and pentode. 100w per channel (amp) in triode, and 200w in ultralinear pentode.  And to think I had mine outfitted with early '60's Genalex KT-66 output tubes.  24 of them...and some spares.  They were cheaper then.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Can't argue with that LOL!  Love the look of B&O stuff...too bad it sounds about like Bose.
> 
> Of all the speaker amps I've had, I loved the looks of these most. Not my pic below, but the same amps (and that picture doesn't do them justice -- that Jaguar red paint had several coats of clearcoat on top and shined like a mutha').  These amps were switchable between triode and pentode. 100w per channel (amp) in triode, and 200w in ultralinear pentode.  And to think I had mine outfitted with early '60's Genalex KT-66 output tubes.  24 of them...and some spares.  They were cheaper then.


There goes my retirement account...holy bat amps! I hope I never go down that rabbit hole..I'd love to hear what these can do, I kind of have an idea, the only analog sound I know well are from early childhood days of me dropping the needle down that favorite record. But that was off stereo equipment..I'd love to hear a record played off something like this! Gotta be out of this world.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There goes my retirement account...holy bat amps! I hope I never go down that rabbit hole..I'd love to hear what these can do, I kind of have an idea, the only analog sound I know well are from early childhood days of me dropping the needle down that favorite record. But that was off stereo equipment..I'd love to hear a record played off something like this! Gotta be out of this world.



Days gone by, for sure.  Then you get old and have to start thinking about the retirement account actually being used for...retirement.   

BK (before kid) I even had my own tube closet. Then life became AK and the closet became toy storage, and not the kind of toys *I* like.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Days gone by, for sure.  Then you get old and have to start thinking about the retirement account actually being used for...retirement.
> 
> BK (before kid) I even had my own tube closet. Then life became AK and the closet became toy storage, and not the kind of toys *I* like.


LOL... That's a nice setup. I need to organize my tubes in boxes. Have them scattered in three drawers of my desk. Where could we find boxes for these guys?

FOUND THEM... HERE ! ---> https://www.vivatubes.com/small-octal-white-tube-box-6sn7-5y3-6sl7-12sk7-6j5/


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> LOL... That's a nice setup. I need to organize my tubes in boxes. Have them scattered in three drawers of my desk. Where could we find boxes for these guys?
> 
> FOUND THEM... HERE ! ---> https://www.vivatubes.com/small-octal-white-tube-box-6sn7-5y3-6sl7-12sk7-6j5/



Oh, tube boxes.  I thought you meant boxes to put tubes in. 

I've bought some from Vivatubes, and they're just fine.  

Tube depot has them too:

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/small-octal-tube-box

And Antique Electronic Supply:

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes

Have to check shipping on each though, as a lower box price may be offset by a higher shipping charge.

Then if you're looking for a box to put tubes in (LOL), these work pretty well.  I use them for temporary hoard stash overflow. What's nice is you can add more later on and they'll all match.


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> There goes my retirement account...holy bat amps! I hope I never go down that rabbit hole..I'd love to hear what these can do, I kind of have an idea, the only analog sound I know well are from early childhood days of me dropping the needle down that favorite record. But that was off stereo equipment..I'd love to hear a record played off something like this! Gotta be out of this world.


Try troubleshooting that if one of the tubes go bad. The stuff of nightmares below.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> Try troubleshooting that if one of the tubes go bad. The stuff of nightmares below.



LOL!  

It's the 2nd tube from the left.  It's _always_ the 2nd tube from the left.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 30, 2020)

Morning Ladies!! Sunday Morning Roll!  54' CBS/HyTron 6SN7GT & Sylvania 7236 
https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/71b744ee-b6c1-444b-81d7-e9dd0f5fa467


----------



## bcowen

So Drop has another run of DV336SE's in the works, and since they, um, *drop*ped the price to $200 I couldn't resist. Would appear to be ripe for tweaking, and a good excuse to inhale some solder fumes.   

https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se


----------



## Shane D

Thinking about grabbing a second tube amp just to have a different sound. Is the DarkVoice a viable choice? I have been doing lots of research and all I hear is that "It's good for the price, until you can afford something better", "Just go for the Bottlehead Crack" and "It's okay, but don't expect much." 
This thread has been going for twelve years. Has everybody that posted here moved on to something better or, has anybody kept it for a few years?


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> So Drop has another run of DV336SE's in the works, and since they, um, *drop*ped the price to $200 I couldn't resist. Would appear to be ripe for tweaking, and a good excuse to inhale some solder fumes.
> 
> https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se



Your post gives me some hope.  
I have a coupon so I am thinking, for $170.00, how bad can it be?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 5, 2020)

Shane D said:


> Thinking about grabbing a second tube amp just to have a different sound. Is the DarkVoice a viable choice? I have been doing lots of research and all I hear is that "It's good for the price, until you can afford something better", "Just go for the Bottlehead Crack" and "It's okay, but don't expect much."
> This thread has been going for twelve years. Has everybody that posted here moved on to something better or, has anybody kept it for a few years?


I've "upgraded" to a custom built OTL amp built by @Paladin79 as has @bcowen (he's had his longer than I and it's a beautiful amp). An excellent amp and a great companion to the Darkvoice. The Darkvoice is well, a dark sounding amp that would favor brighter sounding headphones, and is a great starter amp that you don't have to build like the BOttlehead Crack. And has a huge modding community behind it. With the few mods I've done to my Darkvoice it's added (imo) up to 30% more space and depth in the soundstage, and added clarity. It still sits on my desk.


----------



## Shane D

JKDJedi said:


> I've "upgraded" to a custom built OTL amp built by @Paladin79 as has @bcowen (he's had his longer than I and it's a beautiful amp). An excellent amp and a great companion to the Darkvoice. The Darkvoice is well, a dark sounding amp that would favor brighter sounding headphones, and is a great starter amp that you don't have to build like the BOttlehead Crack. And has a huge modding community behind it. With the few mods I've done to my build it's added (imo) up to 30% more space and depth in the soundstage, and added clarity. It still sits on my desk.



I have a "higher grade" tube amp, but it is not OTL and I am curious. I have already picked up HD600's (again) and DT880 (600 Ohm). Also thinking about grabbing T1.2's and maybe R70X's.
I couldn't build the Crack/Speedball, so my landed cost, assembled would be about $800.00 (Canadian $'s). I can land this for about $350.00, plus a few tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> Your post gives me some hope.
> I have a coupon so I am thinking, for $170.00, how bad can it be?



I've never heard one but am intrigued with a $200 amp that, as you've mentioned, is reported to sound good for the money and can be pretty easily modified to sound quite a bit better.  Plus, electronic surgery is fun.


----------



## lalawilson168

Anyones got the DV and the bottlehead crack can share their thoughts on the comparisons. And if I have a DV already will it be worth getting the crack as well


----------



## JKDJedi

lalawilson168 said:


> Anyones got the DV and the bottlehead crack can share their thoughts on the comparisons. And if I have a DV already will it be worth getting the crack as well


Part of getting the Crack is building it. I might eventually grab one to just to get a better understanding of how the inners work in creating the magic.


----------



## Shane D

I am reading through the thread now, but can anyone recommend some tubes to order to upgrade the stocks?

The Tungsol 7236's are highly recommended, but Google reveals none being available.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> I am reading through the thread now, but can anyone recommend some tubes to order to upgrade the stocks?
> 
> The Tungsol 7236's are highly recommended, but Google reveals none being available.


@bcowen  Horder Supremous took them all... 😒

Good news is the Cetron and Sylvania 7236 are good alternatives. 

RCA dual lower getter tubes from late 40's lower 50's are good too.

Chatham, Mullard, 6080 would be the next in line search... (Bonus points if you find a Gold Brand Sylvania)

There's some very nice tubes out there that go for collectors prices... (Not cheap).  I just listed a few of the affordable tubes here.


----------



## DenverW (Sep 6, 2020)

Shane D said:


> I am reading through the thread now, but can anyone recommend some tubes to order to upgrade the stocks?
> 
> The Tungsol 7236's are highly recommended, but Google reveals none being available.



Its all preference, really.  20 different people might give 20 different answers to tubes.  For me, I really didn’t care for the 7236.

My favorite affordable power tubes are the sylvania gold brand 6080 (oldest version), the tung sol and rca 6as7g, and tung sol 6080.

For a higher price there is the 5998 tube and bendix 6080wb, and then even higher is the gec 6as7g and western electric 421a.

For 6sn7 types that don’t break the bank I like the tung sol mouse ears and cbs Hytron (more clinical) and the ken rad vt-231and rca grey glass 6sn7gt (more colored/lush).

Imho for great bang for your buck get a 6sn7 to 7193 adapter and a pair of 7193, cv6, or e1148 type.  I’m typing from memory on my phone so verify those last ones .  Cheers!


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Its all preference, really.  20 different people might give 20 different answers to tubes.  For me, I really didn’t care for the 7236.
> 
> My favorite affordable power tubes are the sylvania gold brand 6080 (oldest version), the tung sol and rca 6as7g, and tung sol 6080.
> 
> ...


I'm still pinching myself over the GEC ...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> @bcowen  Horder Supremous took them all... 😒



I prefer Master Hoarder.    

But I only have one Tung Sol 7236, just to set the record straight. I did kinda hoard some Cetrons though.  LOL!


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> I prefer Master Hoarder.
> 
> But I only have one Tung Sol 7236, just to set the record straight. I did kinda hoard some Cetrons though.  LOL!



Any advice on where I could find any now?

With 11 hours left, I hit the Buy button. I knew that sucker was heavy, but $48.00US for shipping.
Good thing I had a credit.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Any advice on where I could find any now?
> 
> With 11 hours left, I hit the Buy button. I knew that sucker was heavy, but $48.00US for shipping.
> Good thing I had a credit.


Nice you found one! $48 shipping? 🤔 You live in Australia?


----------



## DenverW

For $48 dollars shipping for a tube you should live on a space station for that to be fair.  I sympathize; i've bought an item once too where I thought the price was good, then found out they added the cost to shipping instead.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> Any advice on where I could find any now?
> 
> With 11 hours left, I hit the Buy button. I knew that sucker was heavy, but $48.00US for shipping.
> Good thing I had a credit.



Man, those things dried up fast!  Back when I bought mine (about 6 months ago, I think) there were a dozen or more listings on Ebay. Now there's nada.    Tubeworldexpress has some, but not for cheap.

So do you have one coming?  If not, send me a PM.


----------



## Shane D

JKDJedi said:


> Nice you found one! $48 shipping? 🤔 You live in Australia?



I am referring to shipping on the amp to my home in Canada.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> I am referring to shipping on the amp to my home in Canada.


Lol. ..right on.. yeah , sounds right. Congrats on the amp. 😊


----------



## sennfan83261 (Sep 6, 2020)

As to the TS 7236, I remember that they were constantly on sale last year starting at $35 and then moving up to $45 after we started to talk more about them. Some ham radio guy(s) was selling his cache if you believe the story. The word got out on them I suppose. So much for this thread being some kind of see-krit club.

Anyways, as to their sound, they are more forward sounding than the laid back RCA 6AS7G, kind of more solid state sounding. I have a couple myself.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I prefer Master Hoarder.



Better than Master …

NVM, you almost baited me into something


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Better than Master …
> 
> NVM, you almost baited me into something


L M F A O..... Master Vader??? Or 😂😂😂


----------



## Shane D

This is a reply I got from a dealer in Canada. Does anything jump out to the veteran tube collectors?

A pair of NIB Sovtek 6sn7 GT / 6H8C (Russian) Black base

6sn7 GTA singles:
-rogers black plate

6sn7 GTB singles:
-ge crome plates (usa)
-philips (japan)
-rogers black plate L6
-realistic lifetime (japan)
-sylvania PW
-Tung-Sol black plate (usa)

These are all $25.00 in Canuck bucks.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> This is a reply I got from a dealer in Canada. Does anything jump out to the veteran tube collectors?
> 
> A pair of NIB Sovtek 6sn7 GT / 6H8C (Russian) Black base
> 
> ...


Shane!! 😁 I replied on the other thread... Lol, 
First listed and last listed.


----------



## Shane D

JKDJedi said:


> Shane!! 😁 I replied on the other thread... Lol,
> First listed and last listed.



Thank you twice!


----------



## Shane D

I placed my order, but I won't be able to run them for at _least_ a month.  

I ended up ordering seven:
6sn7 GTA singles:
-rogers black plate

6sn7 GTB singles:
-ge crome plates (usa)
-philips (japan)
-rogers black plate L6
-realistic lifetime (japan)
-sylvania PW
-Tung-Sol black plate (usa)
It was buy six, get one free. Total = $150.00, shipped


Of course my amp won’t be here until probably mid to late October...


----------



## MrMarc

I gave up on the NOS stuff for tube rolling on my DV and landed with the Winged-C 6H13C (6AS7) and the Psvane CV-181-TII (6SN7) and thought I couldn't be happier until I purchased my Anandas. The sound, while quite good, was a bit too "clinical" for my tastes. I recently swapped in a Psvane 6SN7-SE (which is half the price of the CV-181 and didn't take 4 days to get burn the hum away) and it is really something special. The signature (with the Anandas) is warmer with additional "punch & slam", slightly more forward without losing the space these headphones are known for. More high-end detail ("sparkle") is a nice cherry on top. 

As usual, your experiences may differ. 

MrMarc


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Better than Master …
> 
> NVM, you almost baited me into something



I see what you did there.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Shane!! 😁 I replied on the other thread... Lol,
> First listed and last listed.



Totally agree, although I am curious what that Sylvania "PW" is.  Usually PW stands for pinched waist, but I've never seen a Sylvania 6SN7 with a PW.  Hmmmm....


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Totally agree, although I am curious what that Sylvania "PW" is.  Usually PW stands for pinched waist, but I've never seen a Sylvania 6SN7 with a PW.  Hmmmm....



I will post pics. Should have them next week.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> I will post pics. Should have them next week.



Cool.  Thanks!  Also quite interested to see what that Rogers labeled tube is.  May be a gold mine...


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Cool.  Thanks!  Also quite interested to see what that Rogers labeled tube is.  May be a gold mine...



I am hoping that at least one or two is a pleasant surprise/hidden gem.


----------



## JKDJedi

Well well... Here's a surprise, the little tube that could. Filling my Sennheisers to their max potential... Very nice...

Sylvania 7AF7 (paired with Sylvania 7236)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well well... Here's a surprise, the little tube that could. Filling my Sennheisers to their max potential... Very nice...
> 
> Sylvania 7AF7 (paired with Sylvania 7236)



7AF7?  What in the world is that?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> 7AF7?  What in the world is that?


I'm a member of the tube of the month club!    Tell us please.. what is the 7AF7?


----------



## JKDJedi

Is it just me? Or do the 7236 have the wider soundstage of all of them? I've read that the 6080 are supposedly the "wide" tube. Seems like the 7236 outputs are larger.. (amplification factor?)


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Is it just me? Or do the 7236 have the wider soundstage of all of them? I've read that the 6080 are supposedly the "wide" tube. Seems like the 7236 outputs are larger.. (amplification factor?)


It does have higher gain, generally when I do comparisons I make sure volume level is the same between two tubes or devices. For a quick check I have several VU meters I use. Hmm come to think of it, there is a matching VU meter box to your amp laying around here somewhere.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It does have higher gain, generally when I do comparisons I make sure volume level is the same between two tubes or devices. For a quick check I have several VU meters I use. Hmm come to think of it, there is a matching VU meter box to your amp laying around here somewhere.


😁 Is tempting...


----------



## Shane D

Got my variety pack today. Feels like early Christmas.


----------



## Shane D

First tube up is GE tube:


----------



## Shane D

Second tube up is the Tung-Sol:


----------



## Shane D

Third is a Philips from Japan:


----------



## Shane D (Sep 14, 2020)

This one is a Realistic lifetime. It says:
6SN7
GTB
USA
Then some dots and the glow logo is smudged out.
Also the side has a big black smudge on it? There is what looks like a coil in front of it.


----------



## Shane D

Next up is a Rogers tube:


----------



## Shane D

Next one up is Sylvania PW. It is from Italy. And it also has a big black smudge/burn mark in it.


----------



## Shane D

Last tube is another Rogers.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Third is a Philips from Japan:


I want a comparison between this and the Tung Sol. Tung Sol Red Base is a nice looking tube.


----------



## Shane D

I just realized on the last shot that I didn't have the flash on due to low battery. It by the window and I had a desklamp on, but they are still kind of dingy.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> I just realized on the last shot that I didn't have the flash on due to low battery. It by the window and I had a desklamp on, but they are still kind of dingy.


Don't use flash, the light sucks off the smartphones anyways, reflective light is best. By a window, near a wall, or if you have one of them fancy DSLR flashes, bounce it off the wall or ceiling.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> First tube up is GE tube:



Well that one is MOST interesting.  From what I can see in your photos, there are no etched dots in the glass meaning it likely wasn't made by GE (a good thing ).  The silkscreened print on the glass doesn't look like GE font either.  But round silver plates?  Is there anything legible past the "6S" on the glass?  I'm betting that's a 6SL7 and not a 6SN7...but I could be wrong and you lucked out on a rare bird.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well that one is MOST interesting.  From what I can see in your photos, there are no etched dots in the glass meaning it likely wasn't made by GE (a good thing ).  The silkscreened print on the glass doesn't look like GE font either.  But round silver plates?  Is there anything legible past the "6S" on the glass?  I'm betting that's a 6SL7 and not a 6SN7...but I could be wrong and you lucked out on a rare bird.


I wanted to comment on the plates but new that Master Vader would chime in ... 😁


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Well that one is MOST interesting.  From what I can see in your photos, there are no etched dots in the glass meaning it likely wasn't made by GE (a good thing ).  The silkscreened print on the glass doesn't look like GE font either.  But round silver plates?  Is there anything legible past the "6S" on the glass?  I'm betting that's a 6SL7 and not a 6SN7...but I could be wrong and you lucked out on a rare bird.



I will take a closer look tomorrow.


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Well that one is MOST interesting.  From what I can see in your photos, there are no etched dots in the glass meaning it likely wasn't made by GE (a good thing ).  The silkscreened print on the glass doesn't look like GE font either.  But round silver plates?  Is there anything legible past the "6S" on the glass?  I'm betting that's a 6SL7 and not a 6SN7...but I could be wrong and you lucked out on a rare bird.



You did better than me to see a 6S. All I see is a 6. That is it for the glass. On the plastice base I see 9-30 over 188-5. Then just GE Electronics made in the U.S.A.
I am guessing the testing number is 1300 over 1400. Only tube I have seen with the silver coating on the bottom, above the base. Here are some better pics:


----------



## Shane D

I went out on the deck today to get better pics with the sun behind me. My apologies to people sick of my tube pics.
The pic name will tell you what it is. I will break this into two posts.


----------



## Shane D (Sep 15, 2020)

Part 2 of tubes:


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> I went out on the deck today to get better pics with the sun behind me. My apologies to people sick of my tube pics.
> The pic name will tell you what it is. I will break this into two posts.


Keep them coming! I'm enjoying them... thanks!! 😊


----------



## Shane D (Sep 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Keep them coming! I'm enjoying them... thanks!! 😊



That is everything. Hopefully some people with chime in with any thoughts about these tubes, if they know them. My tube amp is WEEKS out so I can't test them.
One has a smudge (Realistic2) and a coil right behind it? I have never seen that before and am guessing that is what caused the black smudge/burn mark.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 15, 2020)

Shane D said:


> You did better than me to see a 6S. All I see is a 6. That is it for the glass. On the plastice base I see 9-30 over 188-5. Then just GE Electronics made in the U.S.A.
> I am guessing the testing number is 1300 over 1400. Only tube I have seen with the silver coating on the bottom, above the base. Here are some better pics:



Just zooming in on your photo shows the 'S' faintly. But I can't see anything after that.  Beyond the fabled Tung Sol black glass round plate tube, I'm not aware of any true 6SN7 that was made with round plates. Doesn't mean there aren't others, only that I've never seen any.  Most 6S*L*7's, OTOH, have round plates. But even then I've yet to see one with silver plates.  So this tube is quite unusual.  Be interested to see what happens with it when you get your amp.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 15, 2020)

Shane D said:


> I went out on the deck today to get better pics with the sun behind me. My apologies to people sick of my tube pics.
> The pic name will tell you what it is. I will break this into two posts.



Love the pics!  Anybody that is tired of them is officially fired.  

But on the bad news front, the Realistic labeled one was made by GE.  Note the etched dots in the glass.  That doesn't necessarily mean it will sound bad, just a 99.9% chance.  

The black smudge discoloration you see in it is the getter flash, and the coil looking thing is the getter holder (or support). Most flashing is silver, but being black doesn't mean it's bad -- it all depends on the barium mixture used when the tube was made (lots of Russian tubes have a black-looking getter flash versus silver). If a tube has a vacuum leak the flashing will turn a powdery white, so no worries with that -- black can be as beautiful as silver.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Just zooming in on your photo shows the 'S' faintly. But I can't see anything beyond that.  Beyond the fabled Tung Sol black glass round plate tube, I'm not aware of any true 6SN7 that was made with round plates. Doesn't mean there aren't others, only that I've never seen any.  Most 6S*L*7's, OTOH, have round plates. But even then I've yet to see one with silver plates.  So this tube is quite unusual.  Be interested to see what happens with it when you get your amp.


Can we have a live feed of this roll


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Just zooming in on your photo shows the 'S' faintly. But I can't see anything after that.  Beyond the fabled Tung Sol black glass round plate tube, I'm not aware of any true 6SN7 that was made with round plates. Doesn't mean there aren't others, only that I've never seen any.  Most 6S*L*7's, OTOH, have round plates. But even then I've yet to see one with silver plates.  So this tube is quite unusual.  Be interested to see what happens with it when you get your amp.


Could it damage my amp if I plug it in and it is a 6SL7?


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Love the pics!  Anybody that is tired of them is officially fired.
> 
> But on the bad news front, the Realistic labeled one was made by GE.  Note the etched dots in the glass.  That doesn't necessarily mean it will sound bad, just a 99.9% chance.
> 
> The black smudge discoloration you see in it is the getter flash, and the coil looking thing is the getter holder (or support). Most flashing is silver, but being black doesn't mean it's bad -- it all depends on the barium mixture used when the tube was made (lots of Russian tubes have a black-looking getter flash versus silver). If a tube has a vacuum leak the flashing will turn a powdery white, so no worries with that -- black can be as beautiful as silver.



How come the GE tube doesn't have dots etched in?


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Just zooming in on your photo shows the 'S' faintly. But I can't see anything after that.  Beyond the fabled Tung Sol black glass round plate tube, I'm not aware of any true 6SN7 that was made with round plates. Doesn't mean there aren't others, only that I've never seen any.  Most 6S*L*7's, OTOH, have round plates. But even then I've yet to see one with silver plates.  So this tube is quite unusual.  Be interested to see what happens with it when you get your amp.


Are you referring to the shape of the two plates in the tube?, If so, here is a breakdown of my 7 tubes:
Rogers 1 = upper and lower are round
Rogers 2 = upper and lower are round
Tung-Sol = upper and lower are round
GE = lower is round and upper is oval
Sylvania = upper and lower are oval
Realistic = upper is round and lower is oval
Philips = upper and lower are both oval
And just to be consistent, when I say oval I am referring to this shape:


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Could it damage my amp if I plug it in and it is a 6SL7?


If it's a 
6SL7 then yes you could damage the amp, or the fuse, the fuse is replaceable. GE purchased a few companies and eventually started to build their own take of the said tube, the real GE is stamped with the etched dots.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Are you referring to the shape of the two plates in the tube?, If so, here is a breakdown of my 7 tubes:
> Rogers 1 = upper and lower are round
> Rogers 2 = upper and lower are round
> Tung-Sol = upper and lower are round
> ...


Those are micas.... What holds the vertical plates in between.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> Could it damage my amp if I plug it in and it is a 6SL7?



Possible, but not probable. You would likely just get a distorted sound as the much higher gain is overdriving the output (power) tube.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> How come the GE tube doesn't have dots etched in?



'Cause it wasn't made by GE.      Another manufacturer made it and labeled it for them.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> Are you referring to the shape of the two plates in the tube?, If so, here is a breakdown of my 7 tubes:
> Rogers 1 = upper and lower are round
> Rogers 2 = upper and lower are round
> Tung-Sol = upper and lower are round
> ...



What you're showing there are the mica(s).  The plates are what's shown below.  Notice that on all the other 6SN7's you have the plates are either flat or have a "T" shape to them....none are rounded like that one tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 16, 2020)

Left for dead...our hero lied in wait for the grim reaper to hoist him away....but our hero had a friend unbeknownst to him, for out of the shadows a figure of light shines upon him and breathed life into this seemly motionless figure....behold....this Bad Boy lives....thanks buddy!

@bcowen


----------



## JKDJedi

I grabbed this rebranded Tung Sol for penny's to the dollar and it's tested really low.. near the bottom of acceptable levels of just using the thing.. 1700/1400 Gm (micromhos)   However..I've learned some new Jedi techniques that might just change some of that....                 (only I can't test the after effects)..     (the case for a tester thickens)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Left for dead...our hero lied in wait for the grim reaper to hoist him away....but our hero had a friend unbeknownst to him, for out of the shadows a figure of light shines upon him and breathed life into this seemly motionless figure....behold....this Bad Boy lives....thanks buddy!
> 
> @bcowen



And not only does it live, but it lives _well_. Better than NOS GM, and almost perfectly balanced triodes. That's about as good a Bad Boy you'll ever find. Now you just need a Motorola tube caddy.     

Not perfect, but the fabric can be re-glued, and a little TLC could make this pretty nice.  Looks like a big mutha too.  Better than decent price, until you get to the shipping which is beyond stupid (but perhaps that can be negotiated). 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-MO...438969?hash=item340d6b5b79:g:Y1QAAOSw0h1dECef


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, my Darkvoice is getting too hot with the Mullard 6080. Is that something to worry about? It looks like everything will melt inside. lol


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, my Darkvoice is getting too hot with the Mullard 6080. Is that something to worry about? It looks like everything will melt inside. lol



Probably.  To be safe, you should send that Mullard to me and save your amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, my Darkvoice is getting too hot with the Mullard 6080. Is that something to worry about? It looks like everything will melt inside. lol


Mullards do run hot.. most 6080 do. I can smell dust burning sometimes. Run a small fan, Zeus (YouTube) measured 350 degrees off one of his tubes in the Darkvoice.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Mullards do run hot.. most 6080 do. I can smell dust burning sometimes. Run a small fan, Zeus (YouTube) measured 350 degrees off one of his tubes in the Darkvoice.



Something like this should do the trick....


----------



## Shane D

I got my last tube in from a very kind member.
PLEASE Drop, ship my amp soon.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> I got my last tube in from a very kind member.
> PLEASE Drop, ship my amp soon.



Sweet!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> I got my last tube in from a very kind member.
> PLEASE Drop, ship my amp soon.


Excellent tube. 👍


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 25, 2020)

Dual Sylvania 7A4 setup.. not for the faint of heart.. 😏
Meshing well with the RCA 6as7g. (Has the 7N7 met it's match?) *HUGE SOUND*


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2020)

And right when I start Goo Goo Gagging,  Lady GaGA ing,  over the *7A4*....  . these drop....the *GEC L63   (The 7th Wonder?)* (A certified @bcowen tube)


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

JKDJedi said:


> Dual Sylvania 7A4 setup.. not for the faint of heart.. 😏
> Meshing well with the RCA 6as7g. (Has the 7N7 met it's match?) *HUGE SOUND*


Where did you get that adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Where did you get that adapter?


@Deyan custom builds these to any configuration you want. The adapter (pictured) is a dual 6j5 to 6sn7 (with two other adapters on top, 7a4 to 6j5). I have a dual 7a4 to 6sn7 coming in from Deyan so that doesn't happen again. 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have a dual 7a4 to 6sn7 coming in from Deyan so that doesn't happen again. 😁



Whew.  I was about ready to get a script for some antidepressants....double-adaptering is so depressing.


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

JKDJedi said:


> @Deyan custom builds these to any configuration you want. The adapter (pictured) is a dual 6j5 to 6sn7 (with two other adapters on top, 7a4 to 6j5). I have a dual 7a4 to 6sn7 coming in from Deyan so that doesn't happen again. 😁


Would you say that you get a better value from spending the money to get the adapter and two 7a4's or just get a 6sn7 of equal value to their combined price?


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Would you say that you get a better value from spending the money to get the adapter and two 7a4's or just get a 6sn7 of equal value to their combined price?


Value?...that was gone a long time ago when I started this journey 😂 Anyways, if you like collecting tubes then value is of no matter, but if you want best bang for your buck and be done with just one set up.... 7a4 could be your end game... Or just one 7N7 or just one 6F8G or just one of..... See what I mean?


----------



## therremans (Oct 3, 2020)

This is my current favorite setup. I find the 7193 (NU specifically) to be a very detailed and dynamic tube. A little bit of low end is sacrificed when comparing to a tube like the Ken Rad VT231. But the soundstage and instrument separation is greatly improved. What’s also great is that the 7193s are some of the cheapest tubes that I own. I love my 6J5Gs and 6F8Gs...but the 7193 seem to mostly outperform them on my setup.

Power: Unbranded Tung-sol 5998
Pre: National Union JAN-CNU 7193 (yr. 1943)
Mods: remove output ground, led bias
Phones: HD6XX


----------



## therremans (Oct 3, 2020)

How do the straight bottle GEC L63s sound? The cheapest price I have found is about $100 for a pair 

Having seen my setup above with 7193s being a favorite.. what tubes would you recommend that I try out next? 7A4?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> How do the straight bottle GEC L63s sound? The cheapest price I have found is about $100 for a pair
> 
> Having seen my setup above with 7193s being a favorite.. what tubes would you recommend that I try out next? 7A4?


The GECs are a special pairing, worth the coin on them, and are NOS hence the pricing on those, and that's for a pair so not bad at all. The 7a4 are a nice bargain hunt of a tube, you can find them for $6 or so, only finding a pair that match is a chore, I just gabbed whatever and left it up to  the tube gods for matching...been lucky so far, have two pair of Sylvania 7a4 here with me and 2 more (7a4) adapters coming in. If you like a large holographic hall like sound that passes your shoulders...7a4. The GEC reigns in a lot of the bloom , tightens it up, much like the led mod does to the removal of the output ground on the Darkvoice. I completely removed the cable of the output wires on that RCA plug...looks like all I needed to do was remove the ground..lol. The GECs vocals are tops, I have not heard better, just outstanding clarity and realism to the mids.. incredible. And with no penalties to the rest of the spectrum.. If I had to clear out my inventory..these would remain. And I haven't tried pairing them with my premium output tubes yet.. . great with RCA, Winged C, and Chatham 6as7g. As for the 7a4, you could probably get a pair and an adapter for under $50.


----------



## therremans

Okay, I’ll get the GECs. Well and looks like I’ll have to try the 7a4, I’ll order an adapter now. Are there any makes that stand out? I usually like what National Union offers.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> This is my current favorite setup. I find the 7193 (NU specifically) to be a very detailed and dynamic tube. A little bit of low end is sacrificed when comparing to a tube like the Ken Rad VT231. But the soundstage and instrument separation is greatly improved. What’s also great is that the 7193s are some of the cheapest tubes that I own. I love my 6J5Gs and 6F8Gs...but the 7193 seem to mostly outperform them on my setup.
> 
> Power: Unbranded Tung-sol 5998
> Pre: National Union JAN-CNU 7193 (yr. 1943)
> ...


I just noticed you have the Sylvania 6J5gt/g there... are they your favorite 6j5?


----------



## therremans (Oct 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I just noticed you have the Sylvania 6J5gt/g there... are they your favorite 6j5?


The Raytheon branded ones? I preferred them to the Ken Rads. I like the Zeniths the most out of my 6j5s.

Then probably the Marconi’s (more mellow and warm) followed by the National Union/silvertone pair. I have one Tung-sol that sounds good but waiting for another.

The 6P5G by silvertone(National Union) sounded nice yet also having a lower gain. They worked well with my tung-sol 7236.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Okay, I’ll get the GECs. Well and looks like I’ll have to try the 7a4, I’ll order an adapter now. Are there any makes that stand out? I usually like what National Union offers.


I'm a huge fan of NU the same.. All I could find immediately were the Sylvania type..


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> How do the straight bottle GEC L63s sound? The cheapest price I have found is about $100 for a pair
> 
> Having seen my setup above with 7193s being a favorite.. what tubes would you recommend that I try out next? 7A4?



I agree with all of @JKDJedi 's comments on these. They add a nice balance with an output tube that tilts toward the aggressive side, like a Cetron 7236. They also sound fabulous with the Tung Sol 5998.  Curiously though, I like the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 better with the Western Electric 421A.  But this is all in another amp (the Incubus) and not the DV, so take my comments for what they're worth.  Langrex still has some of the GEC's, and even though you have to be patient for the shipping from the UK he has a very good reputation -- if there's a problem, he'll take care of it. You're right they'll set you back almost $100 for a pair with the shipping, but I have a feeling that once his stash is gone the price on these from other sellers will go up quickly.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt

And even though I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, the stars aligned anyway. Got notice from Drop that my DV has shipped, so almost time to whip out the premium parts bucket and hack something else up...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I agree with all of @JKDJedi 's comments on these. They add a nice balance with an output tube that tilts toward the aggressive side, like a Cetron 7236. They also sound fabulous with the Tung Sol 5998.  Curiously though, I like the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 better with the Western Electric 421A.  But this is all in another amp (the Incubus) and not the DV, so take my comments for what they're worth.  Langrex still has some of the GEC's, and even though you have to be patient for the shipping from the UK he has a very good reputation -- if there's a problem, he'll take care of it. You're right they'll set you back almost $100 for a pair with the shipping, but I have a feeling that once his stash is gone the price on these from other sellers will go up quickly.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt
> 
> And even though I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, the stars aligned anyway. Got notice from Drop that my DV has shipped, so almost time to whip out the premium parts bucket and hack something else up...


----------



## therremans

GECs have been ordered...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> The Raytheon branded ones? I preferred them to the Ken Rads. I like the Zeniths the most out of my 6j5s.
> 
> Then probably the Marconi’s (more mellow and warm) followed by the National Union/silvertone pair. I have one Tung-sol that sounds good but waiting for another.
> 
> The 6P5G by silvertone(National Union) sounded nice yet also having a lower gain. They worked well with my tung-sol 7236.



These Tung Sol round plates are probably my 2nd favorite 6J5 (after the GEC's).  The 1945 Sylvanias get close, but the TS's have more wallop in the bass.








And although they're hard to see due to the getter flash, these 7A4's that are also '45's have similar but not identical plates.  Can't honestly tell a lot of difference between them sonically.


----------



## therremans

Yes, I have read that the tung-sol 6J5G or GT are likely some of the best sounding. I have the one Tung-Sol 6J5G currently. I don’t suppose the GT would sound much or any different? But holding out for a G to pop up at a reasonable price.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> These Tung Sol round plates are probably my 2nd favorite 6J5 (after the GEC's).  The 1945 Sylvanias get close, but the TS's have more wallop in the bass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The GECs are L63... (Not 6j5) 😒


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The GECs are L63... (Not 6j5) 😒


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, I have read that the tung-sol 6J5G or GT are likely some of the best sounding. I have the one Tung-Sol 6J5G currently. I don’t suppose the GT would sound much or any different? But holding out for a G to pop up at a reasonable price.



I haven't heard the G's (only the GT's).  With some of the European breeds, the G's are thought of more highly than the GT's. May hold true for the TS's as well, but I haven't run across a pair at a decent price....yet.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I haven't heard the G's (only the GT's).  With some of the European breeds, the G's are thought of more highly than the GT's. May hold true for the TS's as well, but I haven't run across a pair at a decent price....yet.


Some are labeled 6J5GT/G (VT94D)... Those the G or is it just 6J5G ? 🤔 oh ...just saw a pair... Zenith 6J5G.. interesting..


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Some are labeled 6J5GT/G (VT94D)... Those the G or is it just 6J5G ? 🤔


From my understanding, the 6J5GT/G designation is a GT. It’s marked this way to let the consumer know that it will work in their unit that was labeled to work with 6J5G.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 4, 2020)

therremans said:


> From my understanding, the 6J5GT/G designation is a GT. It’s marked this way to let the consumer know that it will work in their unit that was labeled to work with 6J5G.


Saw that and really interesting that the G came out before the GT versions... totally makes sense, the pair I grabbed just now, per your recommendation are Zenith (Sylvania) 6J5G 1940. The other Sylvania 6j5gt/gt I have (one of these drawers..hidden) are 1944 so this will be an interesting roll for me... Thank you.


----------



## therremans (Oct 4, 2020)

Early tubes were metal
*6J5,6C5, etc 


*G (Glass) 


*GT (Glass Tube) 



A good article here: https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html

Another benefit of running some of these tubes with an adapter is that they are very efficient. I notice they get warm, never hot and cool down very quickly after power off.


----------



## therremans (Oct 4, 2020)

Zenith 6J5Gs.. (using tung sol 5998) these are actually my favorites again after a listen. looking forward in comparing them to the Tung Sol 6J5G... and the GEC L63

notes: strong mid bass emphasis, deep lows, a unique airy tube sound signature, not tight, not overly warm, high level of detail and still pretty dynamic, good highs, up front soundstage yet still able to maintain great instrument separation. jazz, piano, upright bass, sax, horns all sound amazing through these. (but yes everything sounds great through them)

Mine are from the 40s, the 30s had engraved Zenith on the base. I have not heard these but they do have a slightly different construction.


----------



## Shane D (Oct 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I agree with all of @JKDJedi 's comments on these. They add a nice balance with an output tube that tilts toward the aggressive side, like a Cetron 7236. They also sound fabulous with the Tung Sol 5998.  Curiously though, I like the PSVane CV181T Mk 2 better with the Western Electric 421A.  But this is all in another amp (the Incubus) and not the DV, so take my comments for what they're worth.  Langrex still has some of the GEC's, and even though you have to be patient for the shipping from the UK he has a very good reputation -- if there's a problem, he'll take care of it. You're right they'll set you back almost $100 for a pair with the shipping, but I have a feeling that once his stash is gone the price on these from other sellers will go up quickly.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt
> 
> And even though I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, the stars aligned anyway. Got notice from Drop that my DV has shipped, so almost time to whip out the premium parts bucket and hack something else up...



Hopefully I will get a shipping notice on Monday. It has been a long time since I did the Drop long wait. Most stuff has been in stock.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 4, 2020)

Shane D said:


> Hopefully I will get a shipping notice on Monday. It has been a long time since I did the Drop long wait. Most stuff has been in stock.



Keeping fingers crossed for you.    The only thing beyond this I've had to wait on a "Drop date" for (so far) were my Senn HD-6XX's, which shipped a couple days after the stated date. IIRC, when I ordered the DV the stated date was 10/2 so this one is right on time...at least for me. Interestingly, this Drop on the DV is already gone.  For $200, how can people NOT order one?


----------



## therremans (Oct 4, 2020)

I purchased mine from APOS earlier this year. There was no active drop at the time and I figured it could be up to 6 months to get it from drop. They didn’t charge me tax or shipping. It was direct from Hong Kong, DHL I think. The first unit had some cosmetic finish issues... they sent me a replacement unit without question.


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Keeping fingers crossed for you.    The only thing beyond this I've had to wait on a "Drop date" for (so far) were my Senn HD-6XX's, which shipped a couple days after the stated date. IIRC, when I ordered the DV the stated date was 10/2 so this one is right on time...at least for me. Interestingly, this Drop on the DV is already gone.  For $200, how can people NOT order one?


When I ordered I am sure the ship date was Sept. 29. Then the Drop got extended and the date was Oct. 9th.
Hopefully it will be early in the week as it will still take 2 weeks to get to me.


----------



## Shane D

therremans said:


> I purchased mine from APOS earlier this year. There was no active drop at the time and I figured it could be up to 6 months to get it from drop. They didn’t charge me tax or shipping. It was direct from Hong Kong, DHL I think. The first unit had some cosmetic finish issues... they sent me a replacement unit without question.



Ordered a couple of items from Shenzhen Audio and it was Much cheaper than buying from the US. However I paid Drop $170.00 for this (with $30.00 in points). Shipping is very expensive though.

However, with all the problems I have read about with these amps I wanted to have a return option for early/immediate problems.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 5, 2020)

Shane D said:


> However, with all the problems I have read about with these amps I wanted to have a return option for early/immediate problems.


If you are talking about the Darkvoice, be sure you put it next to an open window or well-ventilated area upon first use, ideally with a fan blowing the air towards the open window. The reason being is that flipping it on for the first time with the stock tubes sometimes causes a burning smell (it did with mine) (burning off excess adhesive?)--talk about literal burn-in. Let it stay on for a bit while blowing the smoke-smelling air outdoors. Afterwards, with the stock tubes or any other tubes, there hasn't been any burning smell since the that initial use. After the initial use, use any tube combination that you like. If your 6SN7 tube is buzzing in one-channel, then you'll have to burn-in that tube for 24-72hrs while leaving out the power tube; the latter step allows the amp to run cool during the burn-in process.


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

sennfan83261 said:


> After the initial use, use any tube combination that you like. If your 6SN7 tube is buzzing in one-channel, then you'll have to burn-in that tube for 24-72hrs while leaving out the power tube; the latter step allows the amp to run cool during the burn-in process.


Do you burn in the tube with an audio input like you would with a headphone or just with the RCA's disconnected?


----------



## sennfan83261

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Do you burn in the tube with an audio input like you would with a headphone or just with the RCA's disconnected?


No audio input.


----------



## bcowen

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Do you burn in the tube with an audio input like you would with a headphone or just with the RCA's disconnected?



The cathode of the tube is emitting electrons whenever the tube has power applied and is at operating temperature, so technically it's breaking in just by being on.  I _think_ the tube breaks in a little faster with a signal applied as the flow of electrons is now variable between the cathode and anode and subsequently 'exercising' the tube a bit more, if you will. But the operative word in that sentence is _think_, as I have no empirical data to support that -- it's just my opinion.  Many think that "break-in" isn't a thing at all. I don't agree, but to each his/her own.


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

bcowen said:


> The cathode of the tube is emitting electrons whenever the tube has power applied and is at operating temperature, so technically it's breaking in just by being on.  I _think_ the tube breaks in a little faster with a signal applied as the flow of electrons is now variable between the cathode and anode and subsequently 'exercising' the tube a bit more, if you will. But the operative word in that sentence is _think_, as I have no empirical data to support that -- it's just my opinion.  Many think that "break-in" isn't a thing at all. I don't agree, but to each his/her own.


Gotcha, I was just curious since I didn't know if inputting an audio signal without the power tube would potentially cause any damage.


----------



## therremans

So my first tube purchased for the DV was a brand new Russian red base Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb, strong hum in left channel like normal.. The break in method does work and it became silent after running for ~24 hours.

However, I quickly realized that there will be many more tubes + tube adapters and I needed to do either the capacitor (fitz) mod or led bias mod as I didn’t want to accept hum variation in tubes. I chose the LED cathode mod and it improved sound quality and also ~50 preamp tubes later..not one of them hummed.


----------



## sennfan83261

therremans said:


> So my first tube purchased for the DV was a brand new Russian red base Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb, strong hum in left channel like normal.. The break in method does work and it became silent after running for ~24 hours.
> 
> However, I quickly realized that there will be many more tubes + tube adapters and I needed to do either the capacitor (fitz) mod or led bias mod as I didn’t want to accept hum variation in tubes. I chose the LED cathode mod and it improved sound quality and also ~50 preamp tubes later..not one of them hummed.


I assume that the LED bias mod does not add gain (or as much) to the circuit like the cap-bypass (Fitz) mod. If it doesn't, I'm probably going to swap out the Fitz caps for the LED bias mod (swapping out the two lateral resistors and replacing them with LEDs).


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Gotcha, I was just curious since I didn't know if inputting an audio signal without the power tube would potentially cause any damage.


That's a good question.. the preamp out is just using the driver tube, from my understanding, and j


sennfan83261 said:


> I assume that the LED bias mod does not add gain (or as much) to the circuit like the cap-bypass (Fitz) mod. If it doesn't, I'm probably going to swap out the Fitz caps for the LED bias mod (swapping out the two lateral resistors and replacing them with LEDs).


----------



## therremans (Oct 5, 2020)

I didn’t notice any gain increase with a low forward voltage. Below 2v. I bought caps as well but never used them as this seems to be the better mod of the two. This LED was recommended to me for preamp tube biasing, I think since it’s 1.6 forward volts or it matches the DV voltage/circuitry well? A very dim red led is preferred and one engineer loves these for audio. (I’m not an electrical engineer or anything close to it.)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Broadcom-Avago/HLMP-6000?qs=jT9z6tsiFNmh/1NRKSS5EA==


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I didn’t notice any gain increase. This LED was recommended to me. A dim red led is preferred. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Broadcom-Avago/HLMP-6000?qs=jT9z6tsiFNmh/1NRKSS5EA==


These are the ones I used...
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lite-on-inc/LTL-4221N/160-1139-ND/214530


----------



## therremans

The first LEDs I used were a bright amber  from a local Microcenter.. to match my tube glow ha. Then I realized my error.. They had a forward voltage that was much too high (don’t recall the value) and the result was too much gain. Then I did some research and found HLMP-6000, with only 1.6 V.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> The first LEDs I used were a bright amber  from a local Microcenter.. to match my tube glow ha. Then I realized my error.. They had a forward voltage that was much too high (don’t recall the value) and the result was too much gain. Then I did some research and found HLMP-6000, with only 1.6 V.



I'm goin' with purple, 'cause we all know that purple sounds better.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 5, 2020)

*rtalors76 LED MOD *(copy n pasted from superaudiofriends)

* 
LED cathode bias on the preamp tube*

This is a fairly simple mod and also one I borrowed from the Crack schematic. I simply removed the 1K cathode biasing resistors on the 6SN7's and replaced with LED's just like the Crack. This _allows for a much more steady biasing voltage._







This change made it even closer to the Crack._ It retained much more detail and clarity and less sag._ Not as big a change as lifting the Line Out, but much improved.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 6, 2020)

There be Darkvoice here.  At this point, for an unbroken-in, unmodified, inexpensive amp with crap tubes, I'll bestow it my highest honor and say that it _doesn't_ suck!   I can see why this amp has such a following, as even in its present state it's quite enjoyable to listen to.

Both of the tubes are Chinese (duh), and the 6SN7 tests quite well with nicely balanced triodes. The 6N5PJ (6AS7) has strong GM but a 15% imbalance between the triodes, and one of the two is microphonic as all hell -- haven't figured out which one, and probably won't even bother as both of these will be jettisoned once the amp breaks in some.  Gonna give it about 25 hours to be sure no magic smoke emanates, and then begin surgery.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> There be Darkvoice here.  At this point, for an unbroken-in, unmodified, inexpensive amp with crap tubes, I'll bestow it my highest honor and say that it _doesn't_ suck!   I can see why this amp has such a following, as even in its present state it's quite enjoyable to listen to.
> 
> Both of the tubes are Chinese (duh), and the 6SN7 tests quite well with nicely balanced triodes. The 6N5PJ (6AS7) has strong GM but a 15% imbalance between the triodes, and one of the two is microphonic as all hell -- haven't figured out which one, and probably won't even bother as both of these will be jettisoned once the amp breaks in some.  Gonna give it about 25 hours to be sure no magic smoke emanates, and then begin surgery.


😎 Welcome to the family. I can't wait to see what magic you do with the Darkone.


----------



## Shane D (Oct 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> There be Darkvoice here.  At this point, for an unbroken-in, unmodified, inexpensive amp with crap tubes, I'll bestow it my highest honor and say that it _doesn't_ suck!   I can see why this amp has such a following, as even in its present state it's quite enjoyable to listen to.
> 
> Both of the tubes are Chinese (duh), and the 6SN7 tests quite well with nicely balanced triodes. The 6N5PJ (6AS7) has strong GM but a 15% imbalance between the triodes, and one of the two is microphonic as all hell -- haven't figured out which one, and probably won't even bother as both of these will be jettisoned once the amp breaks in some.  Gonna give it about 25 hours to be sure no magic smoke emanates, and then begin surgery.



Wow, that was fast! Mine STILL hasn't shipped


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😎 Welcome to the family. I can't wait to see what magic you do with the Darkone.



First thing I have to do is reduce the gain.  The volume knob is situated on this where 6:00 is fully counterclockwise, and into the HD-6XX's 7:00 is as loud as I can go.  May be that 6N5P tube...gonna try a good ol' RCA 6080 and see what that does.

I'm also understanding (or perhaps interpreting...and perhaps incorrectly) that with the LED mod the forward voltage of the LED will affect the gain of the 6SN7, which would subsequently affect the overall gain.  But I'm not electrically engineered enough to know which way to go.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> First thing I have to do is reduce the gain.  The volume knob is situated on this where 6:00 is fully counterclockwise, and into the HD-6XX's 7:00 is as loud as I can go.  May be that 6N5P tube...gonna try a good ol' RCA 6080 and see what that does.
> 
> I'm also understanding (or perhaps interpreting...and perhaps incorrectly) that with the LED mod the forward voltage of the LED will affect the gain of the 6SN7, which would subsequently affect the overall gain.  But I'm not electrically engineered enough to know which way to go.


That’s normal, the LED bias won’t effect the gain in either direction if the right LEDs are used. In my experience. As far as making the gain have a larger sweep, a new volume pot is necessary. I have an ALPS pot for this but haven’t installed it.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> First thing I have to do is reduce the gain.  The volume knob is situated on this where 6:00 is fully counterclockwise, and into the HD-6XX's 7:00 is as loud as I can go.  May be that 6N5P tube...gonna try a good ol' RCA 6080 and see what that does.
> 
> I'm also understanding (or perhaps interpreting...and perhaps incorrectly) that with the LED mod the forward voltage of the LED will affect the gain of the 6SN7, which would subsequently affect the overall gain.  But I'm not electrically engineered enough to know which way to go.


The 250K stock pot used is way too much for headphone use since the designers had an eye on the preamp function.


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

bcowen said:


> First thing I have to do is reduce the gain.  The volume knob is situated on this where 6:00 is fully counterclockwise, and into the HD-6XX's 7:00 is as loud as I can go.  May be that 6N5P tube...gonna try a good ol' RCA 6080 and see what that does.
> 
> I'm also understanding (or perhaps interpreting...and perhaps incorrectly) that with the LED mod the forward voltage of the LED will affect the gain of the 6SN7, which would subsequently affect the overall gain.  But I'm not electrically engineered enough to know which way to go.


It might depend on what source you are using. I know some DACs can alter the output voltage and lowering that would help I think. I mainly just use an LG V30 as my DAC (3.5mm to RCA) and just make sure that the volume is relatively low on the V30 that way I have more play with the potentiometer on the darkvoice.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> That’s normal, the LED bias won’t effect the gain in either direction if the right LEDs are used. In my experience. As far as making the gain have a larger sweep, a new volume pot is necessary. I have an ALPS pot for this but haven’t installed it.



Thanks!  What forward voltage value would you recommend for the LED's?  I've seen comments on anything from 1.6v to 5v, with 2v probably being the most mentioned. Or does it make any difference?


----------



## therremans

Mine is direct into the DV input from the DAC, desktop is using systemwide reference software and kept at max volume. As with my music playing software, currently Tidal.

However, systemwide software utilizes an option that’s enabled by default for “safe headroom”. This applies a slight -5 to -6db  decrease automatically, which I always use unless my source is extremely quiet, like in certain movie rips.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  What forward voltage value would you recommend for the LED's?  I've seen comments on anything from 1.6v to 5v, with 2v probably being the most mentioned. Or does it make any difference?


I do think it matters, higher voltage would be more gain. I just previously mentioned how I used improper LEDs and had to replace them. The color matters as I believe it is tied to the voltage. Just buy these https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...h/1NRKSS5EA==&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I do think it matters, higher voltage would be more gain. I just previously mentioned how I used improper LEDs and had to replace them. The color matters as I believe it is tied to the voltage. Just buy these https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/broadcom-limited/hlmp-6000/?qs=jT9z6tsiFNmh/1NRKSS5EA==&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD



Works for me.  Thanks!!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ...probably won't even bother as both of these will be jettisoned once the amp breaks in some.  Gonna give it about 25 hours to be sure no magic smoke emanates, and then begin surgery.



Don't worry.  As sure as 99.9% of GE tubes generate crap sound...those Shuguang 6SN7s even as decent sounding as they are...will emit the magic smoke first and crap out sooner rather than later.  I've had 4 of these and all bit the dust in its short sweet life.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 6, 2020)

therremans said:


> I do think it matters, higher voltage would be more gain. I just previously mentioned how I used improper LEDs and had to replace them. The color matters as I believe it is tied to the voltage. Just buy these https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/broadcom-limited/hlmp-6000/?qs=jT9z6tsiFNmh/1NRKSS





therremans said:


> I do think it matters, higher voltage would be more gain. I just previously mentioned how I used improper LEDs and had to replace them. The color matters as I believe it is tied to the voltage. Just buy these https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/broadcom-limited/hlmp-6000/?qs=jT9z6tsiFNmh/1NRKSS5EA==&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD


Not sure which ones mine are (led voltage)  but/and the volume pot stock was always kinda high to begin with.. your maxed at 10-11 o'clock ( HD6XX).. and depending on which tube setup you use some will be loud enough at 9 o'clock, some at 12..


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

Just finished burning in this Tung-Sol 6sn7 which has these mouse-ear looking round plates. I haven't modified the darkvoice but I'm considering doing the LED mod since I did have humming in the left channel before I burned in the tube.


----------



## therremans (Oct 6, 2020)

I would perform the LED mod on the basis of sound quality improvement alone. Not having or having as much hum is a benefit. Also disconnect that output. Those two are *simple enough and you’ll notice an improvement with each.

edit: tube rolling..my order went like this..

6sn7s > 6f8g > 6j5g > 7193 > l63
with some others mixed in like 6c5, 6p5, 7a4 and now looking forward to some gec l63.

If I did it over again.. I would skip all 6sn7s and go right into 6F8G and 6J5Gs. I do however enjoy the 7193s. I just sold my Ken Rad black 6sn7 and the NU gray is next. They’re good but other tubes have outperformed all of my 6sn7s. There’s also some alternatives to the 6j5 and 6f8g like 6p5 (lower gain), 6c5 (higher gain), 6f6c (higher gain).

also remember that 7236 and 5998 will be a little higher gain when compared to a 6as7g or I think 6080. The tung sol 7236 was my standard power tube until I finally snagged a mint 5998 for a decent price of $75. Was it worth it? Yes. The 5998 is slightly better than the 7236. It has the detail and clarity of the 7236 but it’s a little more warm and lively, more “tubey”. Not as muddy as the rca 6as7g gray or black plates.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 6, 2020)

therremans said:


> I would perform the LED mod on the basis of sound quality improvement alone. Not having or having as much hum is a benefit. Also disconnect that output. Those two are *simple enough and you’ll notice an improvement with each.


All this and a bag of chips... An immediate better amp with these simple mods. (I almost forgot about the mouse ears . .. )


----------



## Yesthereisgasinthecar

JKDJedi said:


> All this and a bag of chips... An immediate better amp with these simple mods. (I almost forgot about the mouse ears . .. )


Counter point: Just get a good set of NOS tubes (burn them in for 72 hrs), decent headphones, and move on with life. The DV is awesome stock. If you have the extra hours in the day to toy around with modding equipment, knock yourself out, everyone needs a hobby. Given the variability of everything else in the sound transit path, it is more of choice than a necessity. But as I said, everyone needs a hobby.


----------



## JKDJedi

Yesthereisgasinthecar said:


> Counter point: Just get a good set of NOS tubes (burn them in for 72 hrs), decent headphones, and move on with life. The DV is awesome stock. If you have the extra hours in the day to toy around with modding equipment, knock yourself out, everyone needs a hobby. Given the variability of everything else in the sound transit path, it is more of choice than a necessity. But as I said, everyone needs a hobby.


Was it something I said? 😞
I don't feel pretty anymore.... 😩


----------



## Slade01

Yesthereisgasinthecar said:


> Counter point: Just get a good set of NOS tubes (burn them in for 72 hrs), decent headphones, and move on with life. The DV is awesome stock. If you have the extra hours in the day to toy around with modding equipment, knock yourself out, everyone needs a hobby. Given the variability of everything else in the sound transit path, it is more of choice than a necessity. But as I said, everyone needs a hobby.



As you said, it is a choice.  Hence we are in a "tube rolling thread" so expect that 99.9% to be conversations about tube possibilities.  It's cool if you're settled with that Shuguang stock sound (as long as they can last).   But alot of us here won't stop with just (one) set of good NOS tubes.  Perish the thought that some unlucky person has only a set of GE tubes and he is content with that sound and thats all he aspires to hear (though they are free to do so in this free country to have poor taste. lol)  In seriousness, at the very least, let us know what you consider to be your version of good NOS tubes, so that users new to tube rolling have an idea of where to start or clue them in as to what tubes might suit their tastes.  I think we all get that at some point in the journey, people will hone in on their set of tubes and be done - having found that sound that they are looking for, and move on with life.  For those that aren't in it for the hobby aspect, let's help them out with our impressions so that they don't spend 100's of dollars on s*** tubes before getting to ones that are worth getting.  But yeah, the rest of us are happily sucked in.


----------



## JKDJedi

Yesthereisgasinthecar said:


> Counter point: Just get a good set of NOS tubes (burn them in for 72 hrs), decent headphones, and move on with life. The DV is awesome stock. If you have the extra hours in the day to toy around with modding equipment, knock yourself out, everyone needs a hobby. Given the variability of everything else in the sound transit path, it is more of choice than a necessity. But as I said, everyone needs a hobby.


Jokes aside, yes this is an excellent hobby, and many shades to it as you've found out. The Darkvoice stock is an excellent amp and I too at one time scoffed at the idea of modding it, why mess with something that works? Then I realized that this modding thing had a huge following, and I wanted to be a part of it, took baby steps, let's see if this thing blows up if I take a screw off ....no it didn't! Let's take a look inside and see...wow...look at all the ....wait....that's it!? And that was beginnings of the modding. Before that and kinda still ongoing is what to do with all these tubes! 😂 Is just a hobby guys let's keep it fun. 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Before that and kinda still ongoing is what to do with all these tubes! 😂



Well, that one is easily answered. There's even a website:

https://www.SendToBcowen.com


----------



## therremans (Oct 7, 2020)

Although I always knew I’d mod the amp to a degree when it arrived.. I was set on the “one set of tubes” mentality... now my girlfriend thinks I’m mental. Ha. I specifically remember thinking I won’t be one of those guys. I don’t swap tubes specifically for a genre of music, I’m just still looking for the best overall performing tubes for the money.

Hearing the differences between 6sn7s was very noticeable but they became too costly. The flood gates were open when I read about using adapters with other tube designs and sometimes hearing an improvement in the sound at a budget cost.

There are so many tubes to try out there and I think it’s really interesting how old they are. Tube selection is based on music, gear and personal preferences. I now have found a few favorites and am selling off most of the others. I should end up breaking even or even gaining a few bills as I typically waited it out and purchased for cheap.

Edit: DM me if you’d like to see what tubes I’m letting go (here or eBay) or I can make some recommendations for you.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 7, 2020)

therremans said:


> Although I always knew I’d mod the amp to a degree when it arrived.. I was set on the “one set of tubes” mentality... now my girlfriend thinks I’m mental. Ha. I specifically remember thinking I won’t be one of those guys. I don’t swap tubes specifically for a genre of music, I’m just still looking for the best overall performing tubes for the money.
> 
> Hearing the differences between 6sn7s was very noticeable but they became too costly. The flood gates were open when I read about using adapters with other tube designs and sometimes hearing an improvement in the sound at a budget cost.
> 
> ...


Breaking even .....😂😂😂... With audio gear!?.. 😂😂😂
and yes it's amazing how an 80 year old tube can survive that long and still be usable as if it just came off the factory table,  TIMELESS ..


----------



## therremans

Hmm, would these two different GEC L63 CV1067 variants have a similar sound signature?

In my experience, tube designs often remain when it shifts into the straight bottle construction. However, we are talking about a pretty generous gap in the years they were manufactured and I am wondering if anyone has made comparisons.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Hmm, would these two different GEC L63 CV1067 variants have a similar sound signature?
> 
> In my experience, tube designs often remain when it shifts into the straight bottle construction. However, we are talking about a pretty generous gap in the years they were manufactured and I am wondering if anyone has made comparisons.



I have the straight bottle version and like them a lot.  Don't have any of the older ST bottles to compare to though.  Have you visited the 6J5 thread?  Might get some more experienced responses there:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6j5-thread-l63-6c5-12j5-6p5-etc.934653/


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Hmm, would these two different GEC L63 CV1067 variants have a similar sound signature?
> 
> In my experience, tube designs often remain when it shifts into the straight bottle construction. However, we are talking about a pretty generous gap in the years they were manufactured and I am wondering if anyone has made comparisons.


Want!!


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

When doing the LED mod, should the anode of the LED be toward the tube socket or horizontal wire?


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> When doing the LED mod, should the anode of the LED be toward the tube socket or horizontal wire?


Good question... I had to redo that three times...didn't even know this was important.. and no I didn't keep notes... 😩


----------



## therremans

Earl of Bouillon said:


> When doing the LED mod, should the anode of the LED be toward the tube socket or horizontal wire?


Anode towards tube socket
Cathode towards wire

Here is a photo from my amp, the anode towards the socket and the cathode strip faces away from the socket.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Anode towards tube socket
> Cathode towards wire
> 
> Here is a photo from my amp, the anode towards the socket and the cathode strip faces away from the socket.


For the layman.... Short wire points ???


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

JKDJedi said:


> For the layman.... Short wire points ???


The silver strip on this LED denotes the cathode. These LEDs don't have differing sized legs


----------



## therremans

The longer *leg* is the positive side of the *LED*, called the “anode,” and the *shorter leg* is the *negative* side, called the “cathode.”


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

Would you recommend cutting the resistor off of its leads and then using the resistor's leads to connect the LED? I ask because the solder point for the resistor on the socket is covered by heat-shrink. Or did you just remove and reattach the heat-shrink after soldering?


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Would you recommend cutting the resistor off of its leads and then using the resistor's leads to connect the LED? I ask because the solder point for the resistor on the socket is covered by heat-shrink. Or did you just remove and reattach the heat-shrink after soldering?


I personally removed the heat shrink .


----------



## therremans (Oct 8, 2020)

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Would you recommend cutting the resistor off of its leads and then using the resistor's leads to connect the LED? I ask because the solder point for the resistor on the socket is covered by heat-shrink. Or did you just remove and reattach the heat-shrink after soldering?


Oh yes definitely remove that heat shrink. It should pull right off. I reapplied heat shrink tubing there for good measure. It’s cheap and nice to have around. Also snip the leads if it helps you to work cleaner. I remember mine being wrapped around the negative wire. Use your de-soldering suction pen here or copper braid.

Remember to be mindful to how long the iron is applied to the contact points. Prepare the led without the solder so it’s ready to go allowing you to be able to work quickly. Also don’t cross anything by accident. I killed an LED this way.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 8, 2020)

Well...they got here early... Pair of @therremans Zenith's 6J5G.. let's see how these baby's roll... 😁


----------



## bcowen

While waiting on my LED's and caps to arrive, I did the easy surgery today and disconnected the preamp outs:





And while I was poking around, I noticed that they hadn't bothered to scrape off the powder coat paint where the earth ground is attached. The ring terminal was sitting on top of the paint and it looks like the paint went well down into the screw threads as well, so at best this (vital) connection was marginalized, and at worst there was no effective earth ground there at all. Pic below is after I scraped it down to bare metal and reattached the ground lug.  Overall I'm quite impressed with the build quality (and especially at this price point), but I was a little disappointed to see this omission:


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Well...they got here early... Pair of @therremans Zenith's 6J5G.. let's see how these baby's roll... 😁


What’s the verdict?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> What’s the verdict?


The Beyerdyanmic had taken top spot on the Darkvoice last few months.. the dynamic range is excellent with the Darkvoice.....HOWEVER.... with these tubes... the width is wider and the sound bigger with my Sennheiser HD6XX.. these tubes are perfect for the Sennheiser.  *sound*... remind me a lot of the Sylvania 7a4 (I recently got) which I like, and on some tracks the bass elevates deeper than the 7a4 do so it's up there on my list of favorites, very nice tube.  Going through the entire Kid A album at the moment..


----------



## Earl of Bouillon

Just finished the LED mod and here are some pictures of the steps I took. I ended up removing the resistors but keeping their leads since the heat-shrink was being difficult to remove.


So far the left channel hum occasionally returns only but when there is an audio signal. If there is a hum, once the audio stops there is a little pop and the hum goes away. If anything I think it has more to do with the tube since the glass is loose from the base. I'd try another tube but I don't have any others.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Beyerdyanmic had taken top spot on the Darkvoice last few months.. the dynamic range is excellent with the Darkvoice.....HOWEVER.... with these tubes... the width is wider and the sound bigger with my Sennheiser HD6XX.. these tubes are perfect for the Sennheiser.  *sound*... remind me a lot of the Sylvania 7a4 (I recently got) which I like, and on some tracks the bass elevates deeper than the 7a4 do so it's up there on my list of favorites, very nice tube.  Going through the entire Kid A album at the moment..



Well, we're anxiously awaiting results of the Zenith / L63 comparison.  No hurry.  Any time tonight is fine.


----------



## JKDJedi

Earl of Bouillon said:


> Just finished the LED mod and here are some pictures of the steps I took. I ended up removing the resistors but keeping their leads since the heat-shrink was being difficult to remove.
> 
> 
> So far the left channel hum occasionally returns only but when there is an audio signal. If there is a hum, once the audio stops there is a little pop and the hum goes away. If anything I think it has more to do with the tube since the glass is loose from the base. I'd try another tube but I don't have any others.


loose base..can short out..dangerous.. glue that baby with nail polish. This guy uses Gorilla glue , both work, use his technique and your good, and check for shorts when it's dried up, usually after 24 hours.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, we're anxiously awaiting results of the Zenith / L63 comparison.  No hurry.  Any time tonight is fine.


I need at least a weekend...lol.. these aren't wam bam thank you mam tubes...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I need at least a weekend...lol.. these aren't wam bam thank you mam tubes...



Tease.


----------



## therremans (Oct 8, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The Beyerdyanmic had taken top spot on the Darkvoice last few months.. the dynamic range is excellent with the Darkvoice.....HOWEVER.... with these tubes... the width is wider and the sound bigger with my Sennheiser HD6XX.. these tubes are perfect for the Sennheiser.  *sound*... remind me a lot of the Sylvania 7a4 (I recently got) which I like, and on some tracks the bass elevates deeper than the 7a4 do so it's up there on my list of favorites, very nice tube.  Going through the entire Kid A album at the moment..


Oh nice, glad they made the list of favorites. Maybe I will pick up the DT 770's one day.. HD6XX is currently it for me.


----------



## therremans

Earl of Bouillon said:


> So far the left channel hum occasionally returns only but when there is an audio signal. If there is a hum, once the audio stops there is a little pop and the hum goes away. If anything I think it has more to do with the tube since the glass is loose from the base. I'd try another tube but I don't have any others.


Yeah, that’s odd. Try another tube first before you start diagnosing in other areas.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Oh nice, glad they made the list of favorites. Maybe I will pick up the DT 770's one day.. HD6XX is currently it for me.


The year and build adds to the appeal for me, probably the oldest tubes I have right now.. would love to have a tube from the 30's


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> The year and build adds to the appeal for me, probably the oldest tubes I have right now.. would love to have a tube from the 30's



I think the only tubes that you could run from the 30s for DV is 6C5?  Anything else around or older than that?  Although from what I've heard they are only a shade different from 6J5.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I think the only tubes that you could run from the 30s for DV is 6C5?  Anything else around or older than that?  Although from what I've heard they are only a shade different from 6J5.



Although the 6C5 preceded the 6J5, the original (metal can) 6J5 was introduced in 1935 with the glass bottle 'G' version appearing about a year later.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I think the only tubes that you could run from the 30s for DV is 6C5?  Anything else around or older than that?  Although from what I've heard they are only a shade different from 6J5.


6c5 able to run on the Darkvoice?


----------



## therremans (Oct 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> 6c5 able to run on the Darkvoice?


They will on the 6j5/6c5 adapter, I have a pair of metal NOS Tung Sol 6c5s from 1958. The 6c5 will have just slightly more gain. Sound: solid state! quiet signal, lacking resonance vs glass?, warm with an emphasis on midrange. Some of the highs are lacking, lows are smooth yet a little faint. They were fun to test out but I’ll likely sell them. They do sound unique versus the glass and some songs (a lot of classic rock) really make them sing.


----------



## therremans

If you notice I use silicone tube dampers. I can’t say they make any difference, especially on non-microphonic tubes. But.. for a few bucks on Alixpress, you can own your own silicone tube dampeners ha, and a fraction of others branded for audio purposes. There are much better designs out there. But I am not willing to pay the price for something I don’t even know if it’s doing much of anything.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2020)

therremans said:


> They will on the 6j5/6c5 adapter, I have a pair of metal NOS Tung Sol 6c5s from 1958. The 6c5 will have just slightly more gain. Sound: solid state! quiet signal, lacking resonance vs glass?, warm with an emphasis on midrange. Some of the highs are lacking, lows are smooth yet a little faint. They were fun to test out but I’ll likely sell them. They do sound unique versus the glass and some songs (a lot of classic rock) really make them sing.


You described them exact, think I have a pair of the same tubes.. wait.. no these are 6j5..or were sold to me as 6j5...so ??


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You described them exact, think I have a pair of the same tubes.. wait.. no these are 6j5..or were sold to me as 6j5...so ??



So....there's a good chance they are 6J5's.    

The 6J5 is a metal can tube like you're showing. the 6J5G has an ST-shaped glass bottle, and the 6J5GT has a straight glass bottle. Sometimes you see the straight bottles labeled as 6J5G/6J5GT which I assume was to show the two were the same electrically.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So....there's a good chance they are 6J5's.
> 
> The 6J5 is a metal can tube like you're showing. the 6J5G has an ST-shaped glass bottle, and the 6J5GT has a straight glass bottle. Sometimes you see the straight bottles labeled as 6J5G/6J5GT which I assume was to show the two were the same electrically.


I'm liking the design of some of the 6c5 tubes, with the cage around the plates .  On the hunt .. 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm liking the design of some of the 6c5 tubes, with the cage around the plates .  On the hunt .. 😁



You must learn to be faster.     

The only question now is how many years it will be before I find a mate for it (that's not $300).


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You must learn to be faster.
> 
> The only question now is how many years it will be before I find a mate for it (that's not $300).


That was faster than snatching a pebble from the masters hand !! Nice...


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I'm liking the design of some of the 6c5 tubes, with the cage around the plates .  On the hunt .. 😁



That is a pretty bad ass look with the cage.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> That is a pretty bad ass look with the cage.


You gotta hurry before @bcowen hordes on them... 😂😂


----------



## therremans

I just snatched this one up for $9.95 shipped. Bargain. Now I patiently must wait for a second. I have a distant memory that 6C5s with the mesh plates are more prone to going microphonic but I could be wrong.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You gotta hurry before @bcowen hordes on them... 😂😂


----------



## therremans

@JKDJedi
Which headphones do you prefer with the GEC L63 straight glass tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> @JKDJedi
> Which headphones do you prefer with the GEC L63 straight glass tubes?


Good question.. I'll reply tonight with that answer.


----------



## therremans

This is my audio testing playlist on Tidal, https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/e4f1dee5-41de-482c-a15c-6f7c662cf74c
Post yours if you want.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2020)

therremans said:


> This is my audio testing playlist on Tidal, https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/e4f1dee5-41de-482c-a15c-6f7c662cf74c
> Post yours if you want.


https://tidal.com/playlist/d3bbbc37-25c5-46ef-a587-7d2ef7952b4e
If I get lost in a tube past 10 tracks ....it's good. 😁


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 9, 2020)

To continue the modding discussion, here's a pic of volume pot and pcb wire-pin layout from one user's journey upgrading the Darkvoice: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps






EDIT: If a 8-pin potentiometer is required (in-out-washer-loudness?), then the "Alps" 100K pots (8-pins) appear to ship from China, 🤔. Probably better to remove the PCB, buy a regular 6-pin (2-gang) Alps from mouser, and wire the connections directly to the pins of the Alps pot.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> To continue the modding discussion, here's a pic of volume pot and pcb wire-pin layout from one user's journey upgrading the Darkvoice: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks!!  How did you know I just ordered this?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Good question.. I'll reply tonight with that answer.


The *GEC L63* goes well with both headphones.. (if I had to pick one then the Senns.. ) and repeating myself here.. (third time?)       _K I L L E R_ *mids...*  (excellent...., superb instrument separation)


----------



## therremans

I have a brand new ALPS blue, knurled shaft, it will fit the stock volume knob. I will sell it to anyone who needs it. I went with the other style that uses a set screw for an aluminum knob.


----------



## therremans (Oct 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The *GEC L63* goes well with both headphones.. (if I had to pick one then the Senns.. ) and repeating myself here.. (third time?)       _K I L L E R_ *mids...*  (excellent...., superb instrument separation)


How are the highs? Mine should be arriving next week, I hope... and if you were to compare them to your new Zeniths on the HD6XX?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2020)

therremans said:


> How are the highs? Mine should be arriving next week, I hope... and if you were to compare them to your new Zeniths on the HD6XX?


Highs on a HD6XX.. 🤔 tuff one. I'd just be repeating myself on what Ive already said about the L63 . And since your forcing my hand...L63 are unmatched by anything I've heard so far. And they get better as they break in. The Zenith are nice as well, just a little loose dynamically, but some like that, like I do. But the GEC L63 do that in in a much more controlled manner...and did I mention the mids...oh...I just repeated myself again. 😩 Do I like the Zenith....yes..wholeheartedly... Wait till you hear the L63...


----------



## therremans

If anyone wants to replace their stock Sennheiser cable on the cheap.. I made a couple and have this as a spare, as I was learning. I think the connectors are a higher grade than what Sennheiser uses. ~10ft, price: cost of materials ($35) + shipping ($5). I could hear an improvement over the stock. pm if interested.
Canare L-4E6S Star Quad (link) - Connectors (link) - Neutrik - NP3X-B (link)​


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> If anyone wants to replace their stock Sennheiser cable on the cheap.. I made a couple and have this as a spare, as I was learning. I think the connectors are a higher grade than what Sennheiser uses. ~10ft, price: cost of materials ($35) + shipping ($5). I could hear an improvement over the stock. pm if interested.
> Canare L-4E6S Star Quad (link) - Connectors (link) - Neutrik - NP3X-B (link)​


That's an excellent deal guys, for a quality cable like these.  Very nice. 👍


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That's an excellent deal guys, for a quality cable like these.  Very nice. 👍



Totally agree.  Very nice workmanship, and IMO the stock cable that comes with the HD-6XX's is a weak point in an otherwise well-executed design.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> If anyone wants to replace their stock Sennheiser cable on the cheap.. I made a couple and have this as a spare, as I was learning. I think the connectors are a higher grade than what Sennheiser uses. ~10ft, price: cost of materials ($35) + shipping ($5). I could hear an improvement over the stock. pm if interested.
> Canare L-4E6S Star Quad (link) - Connectors (link) - Neutrik - NP3X-B (link)​



Absolutely a great price for a quality cable.  I have similar cables made with the Canare Star Quad, and they are a definite improvement over the stock.


----------



## therremans

Does anyone have experience running 6C8Gs (long term) on the Darkvoice? Will the tube live a short life or cause issues with the amp circuitry?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Hello everyone!

Just wanted to give a huge thank you to all that contributed to this thread, and those that continue on it! After reading thru this thread, yes I skimmed some, but for the most part I read all of it, I am happy to say I purchased a Darkvoice, and am extremely happy I did, honestly I love it.

I'm guessing I got lucky because right out of the box I have had no issues. No humming, no buzzing, zip, zero! Not a complete noob to tubes, but a noob at this level for sure, so again I appreciate all of the info that this thread has given to me.

I'm currently running a Tungsol 6SN7, and a Westinghouse Reliatron 6AS7.  I use it as a preamp as well as a headphone amp, with Drop Senn's HD58x.

I have learned here, and hope to continue...

Thanks again to everyone!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> Just wanted to give a huge thank you to all that contributed to this thread, and those that continue on it! After reading thru this thread, yes I skimmed some, but for the most part I read all of it, I am happy to say I purchased a Darkvoice, and am extremely happy I did, honestly I love it.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the thread, pics are loved here, post em when you get em. 😁


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

@JKDJedi 

Thank you! Just as soon as I figure that part out I'm sure I will,


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 11, 2020)

therremans said:


> Does anyone have experience running 6C8Gs (long term) on the Darkvoice? Will the tube live a short life or cause issues with the amp circuitry?



I have run 6C8G for considerable runs.  No issues with the tube or the amp.  However, per @sennfan83261 's advice:  _" Do note that 6C8G tubes have close to double the amplification factor to 6SN7/6F8G tubes, so the 6C8G will be louder than the other two. This will be a factor for those like me who did the Fitz-mod on their Darkvoice amps.  "_

As such, my DV is stock so I don't have any sound quality issues in this regard when running the tube.  But those mods that inherently increase the natural gain of the DV e.g. Fitz-Mod, etc. might have to keep this in mind along with any other implemented mods that would affect sound output where it might cause too much gain.

But specs wise " 6C8G requires the same heater voltage as the 6SN7's (6.3V) but requires half the heater current of the 6SN7's ".  So technically, is very compatible with the DV and should not wear on the amp circuitry in that respects.   

Thanks to @sennfan83261 - as he provided all this information to me before in the past.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Ok lets try this...lol








Ok, Got it @JKDJedi


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Ok lets try this...lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hah... I knew it was you... Instagram! Nice!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Oh no....I knew it was you before you knew it was me! lmao...Check the comments!!


----------



## therremans (Oct 11, 2020)

@Slade01 : Thank you. I wanted some reassurance that it is in fact functional in our amps, I can't say the same for all amps. Same heater voltage 6.3v, just higher mu factor of 3.5x. However it does not mean the gain is 3.5x, but should be a slight increase, such as going from the 6as7 to the 5998. I have installed the LED bias and not the caps, this is a very good point. (I need to do that ALPS pot swap soon.)

I can now hear the expensive / rare Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G equivalent and will give you my thoughts. I also picked up the National Union VT-163 6C8G, which I owned in VT-99 6F8G, so I am able to make a comparison.

6F8G JAN = VT-99
6C8G JAN = VT-163

I have read boutique amp designers say this:

_Just got a reply from my preamp's developer:_
_- Q: Will the 6SL7 and 6C8G cause any problems in the Chardonnay's 6SN7slots?_
_- A: Yes they aren't 6sn7, completely different. You can use the 6f8g._


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> @Slade01 : Thank you. I wanted some reassurance that it is in fact functional in our amps, I can't say the same for all amps. Same heater voltage 6.3v, just higher mu factor of 3.5x. However it does not mean the gain is 3.5x, but should be a slight increase, such as going from the 6as7 to the 5998. I have installed the LED bias and not the caps, this is a very good point. (I need to do that ALPS pot swap soon.)
> 
> I can now hear the expensive / rare Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G equivalent and will give you my thoughts. I also picked up the National Union VT-163 6C8G, which I owned in VT-99 6F8G, so I am able to make a comparison.
> 
> ...



I loved the NU 6C8Gs.  I have never met a National Union tube I didn't like.    Yeah, let us know about the Tung-Sol VT-99s.  We would greatly appreciate that. I'm sure they are great.  @JKDJedi and I had talked about that tube some time ago for comparisons, but neither of us had it at the time.  Not sure if he picked one up by now.  

I think with the 6SL7, the amplification is just too high for the DV?  All I know with this is either by accident that someone tried it, or most recommendation is that the results were not good when running it with the DV, even though obviously there is similarity with the 6C8G.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 11, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I loved the NU 6C8Gs.  I have never met a National Union tube I didn't like.    Yeah, let us know about the Tung-Sol VT-99s.  We would greatly appreciate that. I'm sure they are great.  @JKDJedi and I had talked about that tube some time ago for comparisons, but neither of us had it at the time.  Not sure if he picked one up by now.
> 
> I think with the 6SL7, the amplification is just too high for the DV?  All I know with this is either by accident that someone tried it, or most recommendation is that the results were not good when running it with the DV, even though obviously there is similarity with the 6C8G.


@Slade01 sold me his National Union 6C8G (two of em) and I was floored on first listen. I might have to bring them out for another listening session. Those and the RCA (Radiotron) 6C8G (or was it a 6F8g🤔) carry a  premium sound. Don't use em with 7236 and above though.. 6as7g and 6080 only for these guys.


----------



## therremans

Ah so I assume it didn’t play well with the 7236 or 5998 due to the added gain on both power and output. I may pick up an rca or Marconi radiotron.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Ah so I assume it didn’t play well with the 7236 or 5998 due to the added gain on both power and output. I may pick up an rca or Marconi radiotron.


RCA..


----------



## therremans (Oct 12, 2020)

But might as well go with the 6F8G if it’s available or affordable. I’ve never read anything saying the 6C8G and 6F8G versions of the same tube sounding different.
While on topic. I liked my Sylvania gray glass 6f8g less than my others. This 1944 JAN VT99 Raytheon was my favorite, even over my NU vt-99. It has an open d large square getter. Not the foil with a dimple.

note: This 6F8G has an emphasis on the highs. It's likely a good match for the senns but possibly not other headphones.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> But might as well go with the 6F8G if it’s available or affordable. I’ve never read anything saying the 6C8G and 6F8G versions of the same tube sounding different.


Got up and checked real quick.. it's the RCA 6*f*8G (Radiotron) .. great tube.


----------



## Katholm

Has anyone seen this LeeSound Darkvoice TE4? I'm interested in buying the darkvoice 336 for around 290$ but this one is half the price and the same output and class A OTL.
I know that the darkvoice 336 has serious reliability issues but this one has the power brick outside.
does anyone have experience with it ? or maybe can share his opinion regarding the concept? the electronic components used?
All help appreciated
Aliexpress link:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33034737734.html...


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 12, 2020)

Katholm said:


> I know that the darkvoice 336 has serious reliability issues


Other than a possibility of a blown fuse, which costs $1-2 to replace IIRC, what serious reliability issues have you seen from the Darkvoice? The famous smoking video was when the dude turned it on for the first time, which probably caused some of the excess adhesive to burn away leaving behind a smoky smell. Mine did that too upon firing it up for the first time for an hour or so. The experience reminded me of turning on a newly bought toaster for the first time; the toaster probably being the more complex piece of equipment compared to the Darkvoice, lol. Ever since my initial flip of the switch for the Darkvoice, there has been no smoky smell. Also, the Darkvoice is pretty much point-to-point wiring, so it is easy to check things under the hood.

The amp you showed looks like a hybrid amp to me rather than an OTL (a power brick and missing a transformer). Hybrid amps tend to veer towards solid-state with a hint of warmth from the pre-amp tube stage. I'm guessing the rectifier there is just for show. It has been out for over a year and there's apparently no reviews on it. Further, it looks like Leesound is piggybacking on the Darkvoice brand to push more sales of this amp. Plenty of red flags, but hey if you are interested in it, then why not buy it and tell us how it sounds?


----------



## Katholm

sennfan83261 said:


> Other than a possibility of a blown fuse, which costs $1-2 to replace IIRC, what serious reliability issues have you seen from the Darkvoice? The famous smoking video was when the dude turned it on for the first time, which probably caused some of the excess adhesive to burn away leaving behind a smoky smell. Mine did that too upon firing it up for the first time for an hour or so. The experience reminded me of turning on a newly bought toaster for the first time; the toaster probably being the more complex piece of equipment compared to the Darkvoice, lol. Ever since my initial flip of the switch for the Darkvoice, there has been no smoky smell. Also, the Darkvoice is pretty much point-to-point wiring, so it is easy to check things under the hood.
> 
> The amp you showed looks like a hybrid amp to me rather than an OTL (a power brick and missing a transformer). Hybrid amps tend to veer towards solid-state with a hint of warmth from the pre-amp tube stage. I'm guessing the rectifier there is just for show. It has been out for over a year and there's apparently no reviews on it. Further, it looks like Leesound is piggybacking on the Darkvoice brand to push more sales of this amp. Plenty of red flags, but hey if you are interested in it, then why not buy it and tell us how it sounds?


First of all, thanks for your detailed input. it is highly appreciated.

I have read many negative performance reviews about the darkvoice on Massdrop. humming in one channel, humming in both channels and even dead ones (not fuse issues). 
few people have noted that the DV is rated at 130v instead of 110v and that's what makes them go bad. but there is no issue with 240v (I am from Israel where we use 240v)
I am still a student and I got SMSL M200 + SP200 stack, a 6xx and a Verum 1 planars. its kind of a decision for me to spend my savings on this and I'm trying to make as big of research as I can do to not get left with crap in my hand after 3 months of use from the DV336 which I'm buying especially for my 6xx. I know that Z  reviews have one on his desk for like 5 years straight. and that guy got unlimited budget, he can easily get some Woo's that costs north of a thousand.

Longevity is what scares me.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Katholm said:


> First of all, thanks for your detailed input. it is highly appreciated.
> 
> I have read many negative performance reviews about the darkvoice on Massdrop. humming in one channel, humming in both channels and even dead ones (not fuse issues).
> few people have noted that the DV is rated at 130v instead of 110v and that's what makes them go bad. but there is no issue with 240v (I am from Israel where we use 240v)
> ...



@Katholm I too was in the same position you are, I had seen all the negative stuff posted, and the positive as well. Just remember this as my Grandfather used to say..
"The squeaky wheel Gets the grease!"
After being in Electronics for most of my life professionally and personally Let me be the one to say Nothing absolutely nothing has guaranteed "Longevity"...And if it did you wouldn't be able to afford it and neither would I..lol

I had looked at The Darkvoice for years and finally took the plunge when I saw the price drop on (hope I'm not breaking any rules) Apos online. I would not hesitate to buy from there and you can at least Try the product and see what it's all about, they have a good return policy from what I've heard.

In terms of humming buzzing tubes, I was completely prepared for that by reading this wonderfully long thread..lol. I received mine thru DHL express in 4 days and have been thrilled ever since. No Buzzing no humming, in fact no issues what so ever! I even joined here just to follow along with the madness and post my experience.

Good luck I hope you at least try it, and remember most people who like or love a product never go on and post glowing reviews, but the bad ones do for sure!


----------



## bcowen (Oct 12, 2020)

Katholm said:


> First of all, thanks for your detailed input. it is highly appreciated.
> 
> I have read many negative performance reviews about the darkvoice on Massdrop. humming in one channel, humming in both channels and even dead ones (not fuse issues).
> few people have noted that the DV is rated at 130v instead of 110v and that's what makes them go bad. but there is no issue with 240v (I am from Israel where we use 240v)
> ...



I just got my DV (new, $200 USD from Drop), so I obviously can't speak to longevity.  I will say -- at this point -- that I'm quite impressed with the overall build quality, the components used, and the sound quality at this price point. I had a low level hum in both channels with mine when I first got it. I was preparing to do either the Fitz mod (adding bypass capacitors to the 6SN7's cathode bias resistors) or swapping out the existing resistors with LED's when I saw the issue where the powder coat paint had not been scraped off the chassis for the earth ground connection.  I still haven't done anything with the caps or LED's, but after fixing that there is no more hum.  None.  Totally dead silent background with no signal and even with the volume pot cranked to max. Honestly I think this is something that should have been done by the manufacturer and needs addressed by them going forward. Period. That said, it's also a simple fix that requires only a screwdriver and about 15 minutes.  There are things that can be improved in the DV. But it's built to a price point (and a low one at that), and that also makes it fun to play with if you're so inclined. But there's no need to play with it if you're not so inclined, as it sounds quite good in stock form.  The stock tubes can be easily improved on, but I imagine the same can be said for the LeeSound.

As far as the LeeSound, I see a lot of electrolytics and only 2 small film caps that are probably bypasses. Compare that to the quantity and size of film caps in the DV.  Electrolytics are necessary at some points in most audio amplifier circuits, but they are dramatically inferior sonically to film caps...even cheap film caps.  I think the biggest turn-off for me with the LeeSound is that it's fed by a SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply, or "brick").  SMPS's generate huge amounts of electrical noise due to their constant switching.  This can be filtered out in the component if it's addressed adequately, but it's still being fed into the AC supply regardless of what's happening in the component and adding noise to every component in the chain.  SMPS's are great for laptops and video consoles where sonic purity is not the primary goal, but as such I go to great lengths to get rid of them _*completely*_ in my audio system. In fact, I use an extension cord for my laptop (when streaming Tidal) to get *its* SMPS into another branch circuit of my house so that its not feeding noise back into my audio gear (at least directly).  That particular aspect of the LeeSound is a total deal breaker...for me.  If you look at all the Schiit gear that is powered by "wall warts," not a single one of those is an SMPS -- they are all merely AC -> AC step down transformers, and the DC conversion is done properly inside the component with no continuous switching going on.

All that said, I haven't heard the LeeSound. It could be a killer little amp.  It's not impressive (to me) from the outside looking in, but in some cases the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts...


----------



## Slade01

Katholm said:


> I'm trying to make as big of research as I can do to not get left with crap in my hand after 3 months of use from the DV336 which I'm buying especially for my 6xx.
> 
> Longevity is what scares me.



I would probably go the route with @Mr BubbaHyde suggested to get the DV somewhere like Apos.  If I am not mistaken, they add on a 2nd year of warranty to all the products they sell on their site...so you'd be getting the DV with a 2 year guarantee and they have a standard no-hassle 30 day return policy.  

Also - with many of the DV humming issues...personally, I found them always to be with an issue with the tubes, and not the amp itself.  Many times, new users do not allow or understand that tubes do need to burn in, or it is something with the tube that is the source of the humming.  When I first got the DV, running stock tubes, it was fine, but then slowly developed a humming.  Come to find out the tubes were just crapping out on me.   Also, when tube rolling, my experience to my particular DV unit, it hates new production tubes.  I have never been able to successfully run tube which has been manufactured recently, without humming, and in which I have given it over 80-100 hours of burn in time. However, switching to NOS tubes (from the 40s, etc.) the amp runs dead silent, no humming.  Your miles will vary.   I have owned the DV for about 3 years with no issues to the amp itself, and in stock format.   Any humming issues I ever experienced were caused by the tubes, not the amp.


----------



## therremans (Oct 12, 2020)

Katholm said:


> Has anyone seen this LeeSound Darkvoice TE4? I'm interested in buying the darkvoice 336 for around 290$ but this one is half the price and the same output and class A OTL.
> I know that the darkvoice 336 has serious reliability issues


No point to point wiring and looks like it runs off a PCB. Not a fan already. The Darkvoice has serious reliability issues? For me, the praises on drop and this forum led me to my purchase.


Katholm said:


> I have read many negative performance reviews about the darkvoice on Massdrop. humming in one channel, humming in both channels and even dead ones (not fuse issues). few people have noted that the DV is rated at 130v instead of 110v and that's what makes them go bad. but there is no issue with 240v (I am from Israel where we use 240v) *Longevity is what scares me.*


My unit's transformer is rated for 110v, US power gradually increased over years and is now rated for 120v (since the late 1960s). I see about 116-119v depending on time of day and season. Luckily it has lasted more than a few months . But you use 240v anyway so not relevant. For what it’s worth, my two units didn’t smoke or smell for first time power on. Also, my stock tubes didn’t hum at all on either unit. Dead quiet, maybe I was lucky. But they went back in a box anyway for other tubes. The couple mods done to my amp also _really _opened up the sound but I am a guy who loves taking things apart to learn how they work and improve it in anyway I can.. the DIY spirit. I am still a dummy with circuit theory.

You are very concerned about the cost, reliability and longevity vs the OTL sound. I would then just invest in a solid-state amp or hybrid unit if I were you. I am a fan of schiit audio. Your HD6XX will still sound nice. If you do end up deciding that an OTL tube headphone amplifier is what you want, this is the best entry level unit (priced well) and this is a great thread to do some reading.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I would probably go the route with @Mr BubbaHyde suggested to get the DV somewhere like Apos.  If I am not mistaken, they add on a 2nd year of warranty to all the products they sell on their site...so you'd be getting the DV with a 2 year guarantee and they have a standard no-hassle 30 day return policy.
> 
> Also - with many of the DV humming issues...personally, I found them always to be with an issue with the tubes, and not the amp itself.  Many times, new users do not allow or understand that tubes do need to burn in, or it is something with the tube that is the source of the humming.  When I first got the DV, running stock tubes, it was fine, but then slowly developed a humming.  Come to find out the tubes were just crapping out on me.   Also, when tube rolling, my experience to my particular DV unit, it hates new production tubes.  I have never been able to successfully run tube which has been manufactured recently, without humming, and in which I have given it over 80-100 hours of burn in time. However, switching to NOS tubes (from the 40s, etc.) the amp runs dead silent, no humming.  Your miles will vary.   I have owned the DV for about 3 years with no issues to the amp itself, and in stock format.   Any humming issues I ever experienced were caused by the tubes, not the amp.



You might want to pop the bottom cover off and check that earth ground connection (pictured a few posts back). If that connection is marginalized, the ground reference for the amp is the AC neutral which is a terrible reference as there is always a residual (and variable) current on it. Possible (and I'm only saying _possible_) that it's not necessarily the tubes, but maybe a poor ground.  If you have a DVM, this can be checked externally by testing for continuity between the ground pin of the IEC socket and the outer barrel of one of the RCA jacks. Should be 0 ohms (or perhaps a couple tenths of an ohm depending on the accuracy of the meter). But if there's more than 1 ohm, the earth ground is not good.


----------



## JKDJedi

I'd comment but considered the source...😏


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

@bcowen I'm gonna check that ground today as you pointed out, that I feel I can handle..lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @bcowen I'm gonna check that ground today as you pointed out, that I feel I can handle..lol


Same here, on my list of things to do this evening, reseeding the grass might have to be postponed ..😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Same here, on my list of things to do this evening, reseeding the grass might have to be postponed ..😁



Priorities.  I'm glad to see yours are in the proper order.      

If you check yours externally with the meter, you'll need to use one of the input RCA's since your pre-out RCA's are no longer wired up.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Priorities.  I'm glad to see yours are in the proper order.
> 
> If you check yours externally with the meter, you'll need to use one of the input RCA's since your pre-out RCA's are no longer wired up.


I'm a total noob with these meter things...had no idea you could check externally .. gonna have to YouTube that


----------



## bcowen (Oct 12, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm a total noob with these meter things...had no idea you could check externally .. gonna have to YouTube that



LOLOL!!! 

1) Set your meter to ohms:





2) Pull AC cord out of the amp.
3) Touch one probe to the ground pin in the amp's IEC socket (longest pin of the 3 -- mine is on top).
4) Touch other probe to the outer barrel of one of the input RCA jacks. You can leave the interconnect plugged in...shouldn't matter.
5) Look at meter reading. If more than a couple tenths of an ohm, paint scraping should be your next priority.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOLOL!!!
> 
> 1) Set your meter to ohms:
> 
> ...


Gold. In the voice of Bette Midler.. "Did I ever tell you your my hero....."


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You might want to pop the bottom cover off and check that earth ground connection (pictured a few posts back). If that connection is marginalized, the ground reference for the amp is the AC neutral which is a terrible reference as there is always a residual (and variable) current on it. Possible (and I'm only saying _possible_) that it's not necessarily the tubes, but maybe a poor ground.  If you have a DVM, this can be checked externally by testing for continuity between the ground pin of the IEC socket and the outer barrel of one of the RCA jacks. Should be 0 ohms (or perhaps a couple tenths of an ohm depending on the accuracy of the meter). But if there's more than 1 ohm, the earth ground is not good.



I have not had any humming issues forever (knock on wood).  But certainly good to know about this ground thing...and sounds like something I can actually do.  I hear about this a lot as an issue source with amps in general, but can understand it a bit better now.  Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I have not had any humming issues forever (knock on wood).  But certainly good to know about this ground thing...and sounds like something I can actually do.  I hear about this a lot as an issue source with amps in general, but can understand it a bit better now.  Thanks!


I'm stoked I get to play with the meter!! 😂😂


----------



## bcowen (Oct 12, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm stoked I get to play with the meter!! 😂😂



This is what I get after scraping.  Unfortunately I didn't put my meter on this before scraping (just saw it and said "bad"), so I don't know what it read before.  Do a reference check on your meter first:  set to ohms and touch the two probe tips together. You may get 0, but more likely you'll get .1 or .2 as there is some resistance in the leads themselves. Whatever you get by touching the probes together is your "Zero Ohm" reference point, so if you get the same reading on your DV, your earth ground is good.  If it's higher, then it's worthwhile to do the scrape thing.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm stoked I get to play with the meter!! 😂😂


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Yay!! My first successful operation on The DV!!  

Pre and Post pics...














It seems to me after looking at it that the thinking on DV's part was the screw threads are the actual ground, I've had enough trailers in my life to not take that as "Good Enough" lol

All back together and It did not blow up so I'm in a good place...Thanks @bcowen for the tip!!

Dammit!! didn't see the meter thing till' after I was done..lol


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> It seems to me after looking at it that the thinking on DV's part was the screw threads are the actual ground, I've had enough trailers in my life to not take that as "Good Enough" lol



Awesome!  The screw threads *could* create a ground path (although not a very good one) and that would be pretty variable depending on how much paint was in the threads to begin with. The screw in mine wasn't all that tight (firm, but not what I'd call tight), and even pointing a flashlight down into the threads I didn't see a hint of silver shining back. Totally with you on the 'good enough' thing -- it's either an electrically correct connection or it's not, and shades of gray don't apply.


----------



## therremans

Mine checked out fine using the meter.. but that is no fun. Let's do the volume pot swap as well today. How does the mounting plate detach from the frame? I saw photos in previous posts in the thread but looks like I'll need to read up. I could not even get it to become loose after removing visible screws. hmm. traditional Chinese epoxy method used? ha


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 12, 2020)

therremans said:


> Mine checked out fine using the meter.. but that is no fun. Let's do the volume pot swap as well today. How does the mounting plate detach from the frame? I saw photos in previous posts in the thread but looks like I'll need to read up. I could not even get it to become loose after removing visible screws. hmm. traditional Chinese epoxy method used? ha


It looks like one needs a hex (allen) wrench and it appears that there's a few of those screws having nuts on them on the inside face. Furthermore, as suggested in the posts below, there could be an adhesive used to keep the screws/volume pot in place (I cannot say from firsthand experience since this has been on the backburner for awhile):

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/1894442/#Comment_1894442
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/1896372/#Comment_1896372

https://imgur.com/a/vSDix
https://imgur.com/ODM5GtF


----------



## therremans

@sennfan83261 thank you


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> @sennfan83261 thank you



Once you get it figured out, let us know.     

Haven't started on mine yet (new pot should be here tomorrow), but the allen-head screws surrounding the knob look to be just tapped into the main chassis, or the screws are self-tappers. No nuts inside. There is a philips-head screw in each corner going from the inside out (into the faceplate) as well.  They look to be reasonably accessible so long as they're not cross-threaded and require massive torque to remove.  Can't be that simple though, can it?


----------



## sennfan83261

therremans said:


> @sennfan83261 thank you


I remember this FS ad partially showing the innards of a modded with a Alps blue velvet pot: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-darkvoice-336i-mods-tubes-uk.412630/#post-5498560


----------



## Shane D

Heard back from Drop today. No amp for me. They were short on their shipment. Mine would be sometime in the future or I could get a refund.

Refund it is. This is very disappointing. I had even bought tubes in advance...


----------



## therremans

$260 at APOS
I paid $280 I think, it will ship via DHL from Hong Kong and should take about 3-5 days.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> Heard back from Drop today. No amp for me. They were short on their shipment. Mine would be sometime in the future or I could get a refund.
> 
> Refund it is. This is very disappointing. I had even bought tubes in advance...



Bummer man!  That totally sucks.  I'm assuming Darkvoice didn't send them the full quantity ordered, versus them just not ordering enough?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Mine checked out fine using the meter.. but that is no fun. Let's do the volume pot swap as well today. How does the mounting plate detach from the frame? I saw photos in previous posts in the thread but looks like I'll need to read up. I could not even get it to become loose after removing visible screws. hmm. traditional Chinese epoxy method used? ha



What value pot are you putting in yours?  250k? Or 100k?


----------



## therremans (Oct 12, 2020)

bcowen said:


> What value pot are you putting in yours?  250k? Or 100k?


100k, here, note that this one will not work with the stock volume knob, that needs a knurled shaft. I removed all visible screws going into the plate and it wouldn't move, it wasn't clear why. Now I see there are four additional screws from the other side as shown above in a post. No idea how to access those but I will figure it out another day.


----------



## Shane D

bcowen said:


> Bummer man!  That totally sucks.  I'm assuming Darkvoice didn't send them the full quantity ordered, versus them just not ordering enough?



They didn't explain it to me and also didn't mention an arrival date. Five weeks of anticipation gone flat.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> What value pot are you putting in yours?  250k? Or 100k?


The stock pot is 250k. If you want more play from your volume pot, then 100k is the way to go.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 12, 2020)

sennfan83261 said:


> The stock pot is 250k. If you want more play from your volume pot, then 100k is the way to go.



Hmmm.  Mine appears to have a 100k pot.  I can't see any markings on it, but it measures (in circuit) between less than an ohm on one end and a little over 92k on the other.  100k is shown on this one schematic too, but I have no idea how old it is or how close it is to what's actually in my amp.  Guess I'll find out for sure once I get the thing yanked out.  Just waiting on @therremans to tell me how to get the faceplate off.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> Hmmm.  Mine appears to have a 100k pot.  I can't see any markings on it, but it measures (in circuit) between less than an ohm on one end and a little over 92k on the other.  100k is shown on this one schematic too, but I have no idea how old it is or how close it is to what's actually in my amp.  Guess I'll find out for sure once I get the thing yanked out.  Just waiting on @therremans to tell me how to get the faceplate off.


Hmm, then I may be mistaken then. My DV amp is over a hundred miles away, so I don't have the opportunity to measure mine with my multimeter.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOLOL!!!
> 
> 1) Set your meter to ohms:
> 
> ...


the meter reads 1 untouched..with both wires touching it goes 0... did the above by the numbers and it hits 0.....Good?


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Heard back from Drop today. No amp for me. They were short on their shipment. Mine would be sometime in the future or I could get a refund.
> 
> Refund it is. This is very disappointing. I had even bought tubes in advance...


that sucks donky d%$k!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> the meter reads 1 untouched..with both wires touching it goes 0... did the above by the numbers and it hits 0.....Good?



Yup.  Zero would indicate continuity, so your earth ground has a good connection to the chassis.  You receive a "get out of jail free" card.    

However, next time you pop off the bottom cover I'd check and be sure that screw on the ground lead ring lug is good and tight. Mine wasn't.  Don't get all Herculean about it and strip the threads, just make sure it's tight enough that it won't wiggle loose in the future.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

@Shane D  Just a heads up I got an email today from Apos saying they are thru the rest of the year matching any online prices, so they will refund the difference if the DV is found somewhere else for less, and also as said before 2 year warranty. If you are still into getting one, thought you should know.

On the tube from one of my best friends sent me this said it was "new" Never been Used! I guess we shall see, but this will be my first Official "Roll" in the DV, I'm not counting swapping the original shipped with the unit of course...lol

Cheers all!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @Shane D  Just a heads up I got an email today from Apos saying they are thru the rest of the year matching any online prices, so they will refund the difference if the DV is found somewhere else for less, and also as said before 2 year warranty. If you are still into getting one, thought you should know.
> 
> On the tube from one of my best friends sent me this said it was "new" Never been Used! I guess we shall see, but this will be my first Official "Roll" in the DV, I'm not counting swapping the original shipped with the unit of course...lol
> 
> Cheers all!


Good first roll ..me thinks you'll like it!


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @Shane D  Just a heads up I got an email today from Apos saying they are thru the rest of the year matching any online prices, so they will refund the difference if the DV is found somewhere else for less, and also as said before 2 year warranty. If you are still into getting one, thought you should know.
> 
> On the tube from one of my best friends sent me this said it was "new" Never been Used! I guess we shall see, but this will be my first Official "Roll" in the DV, I'm not counting swapping the original shipped with the unit of course...lol
> 
> Cheers all!



Nice!  Does that have the D-getter up top?


----------



## Shane D

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @Shane D  Just a heads up I got an email today from Apos saying they are thru the rest of the year matching any online prices, so they will refund the difference if the DV is found somewhere else for less, and also as said before 2 year warranty. If you are still into getting one, thought you should know.
> 
> On the tube from one of my best friends sent me this said it was "new" Never been Used! I guess we shall see, but this will be my first Official "Roll" in the DV, I'm not counting swapping the original shipped with the unit of course...lol
> 
> Cheers all!



Thanks for the info, Apos charges a lot more than I was going to pay and the Drop offer is no longer on. I can't see them matching a discontinued offer.

The free shipping to Canada is nice though. Still mulling on what direction to go.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Thanks for the info, Apos charges a lot more than I was going to pay and the Drop offer is no longer on. I can't see them matching a discontinued offer.
> 
> The free shipping to Canada is nice though. Still mulling on what direction to go.


Wouldn't hurt to try...what's the worse than can happen, them saying no?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

bcowen said:


> Nice!  Does that have the D-getter up top?



Now you're over my head already..  
I believe it's a halo up there let me see if I've got a pic of it, Go easy on the toob noob!, lmao


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

I have a pic for ya! Best I could get as it's in the DV right now, and I'm digging it!


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I have a pic for ya! Best I could get as it's in the DV right now, and I'm digging it!



Cool!  I have a couple of the D-getter versions (which sound quite nice to my ears) but don't have any of the halos to compare to.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I have a pic for ya! Best I could get as it's in the DV right now, and I'm digging it!


The D getters are highly sought for, older dated I'm thinking, might have a halo one like that to compare to the D... Little different from the chi fi I bet ..  congrats on the new tube! Nice grab.


----------



## JKDJedi

Found them! The halo have an expansive sound, (from memory) @Ripper2860 brought the D getter versions to my attention. Maybe he can elaborate on the differences.


----------



## JKDJedi

Now that my adapter is here ... I can roll 7A4 with some dignity... No adapter fouls here. 
(Both matching quite well)


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Now that my adapter is here ... I can roll 7A4 with some dignity... No adapter fouls here.
> (Both matching quite well)


My adapter should be here any day now. But I still only have the one nos National Union.

This pair could be an option for me, https://www.ebay.com/itm/124358267340

Some info on the 7A4: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2017/08/tube-of-month-7a4.html?m=1


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> Found them! The halo have an expansive sound, (from memory) @Ripper2860 brought the D getter versions to my attention. Maybe he can elaborate on the differences.


@JKDJedi you took the words right out of my mouth "expansive" is a great description for this tube, I'm really quite happy with the sound. I believe from what I'm gathering that the D getters were 40's 50's and the O getters started in the 60's. My tube dating is bad but I have learned about the 337 meaning they are actual westinghouse, and yours would be a 1960, and mine a '62

But I could be completely wrong! and probably am!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 13, 2020)

therremans said:


> My adapter should be here any day now. But I still only have the one nos National Union.
> 
> This pair could be an option for me, https://www.ebay.com/itm/124358267340
> 
> Some info on the 7A4: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2017/08/tube-of-month-7a4.html?m=1


If they're at 100% as advertised....get em! Thanks for the 7a4 link


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 13, 2020)

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @JKDJedi you took the words right out of my mouth "expansive" is a great description for this tube, I'm really quite happy with the sound. I believe from what I'm gathering that the D getters were 40's 50's and the O getters started in the 60's. My tube dating is bad but I have learned about the 337 meaning they are actual westinghouse, and yours would be a 1960, and mine a '62
> 
> But I could be completely wrong! and probably am!


You are CORRECTAMUNDO my friend (only no such thing as GTB in the 40's maybe mid to late 50's is when GTB came out for some, guessing  57' for Westinghouse).


----------



## lycos

Hi, has anyone bought tubes from Vacuumtubes.net ?
I bought 2 tubes. 
One is faulty (sound only comes from 1 channel). 
The other one contains a wrong/different brand tube.

Just wondering if it's just an honest mistake or they're actually dodgy seller.
It seems they have been in the business for a long time. There was a reference to this seller back in 2006ish.
I tried to email the previous day but still haven't received a reply yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

lycos said:


> Hi, has anyone bought tubes from Vacuumtubes.net ?
> I bought 2 tubes.
> One is faulty (sound only comes from 1 channel).
> The other one contains a wrong/different brand tube.
> ...


Keep us posted please


----------



## bcowen

lycos said:


> Hi, has anyone bought tubes from Vacuumtubes.net ?
> I bought 2 tubes.
> One is faulty (sound only comes from 1 channel).
> The other one contains a wrong/different brand tube.
> ...



I've never purchased anything from them. I've visited their site a time or two, but what turned me off was 1) they have no pictures of the tube(s) listed and only minimal descriptions, and 2) they don't state whether the tube is NOS, what condition it's in, or any test measurements. If they had really cheap prices it might be worth the gamble, but that's not the case. Just my opinion, FWIW.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I have a couple of the D-getter versions (which sound quite nice to my ears) but don't have any of the halos to compare to.


Well, I'll tell you what as soon as I get another SN7 in here to listen to I'll send this one out to you for a spin, only if you promise to send it back!

I'd say I'll let you know when I do but, I think you'll know the same day I get it, lol....


----------



## lycos (Oct 14, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Keep us posted please



Dale from Vacuumtubes.net asked me to send the tubes back to them.
I have raised this issue to Paypal as well.

I actually bought 12AU7 tubes for my upcoming Bottlehead Crack on a separate order from them as well.
And it's sent to my US mail forwarding company - instead of directly to my Aust address. 
From the photo taken, they seem to be OK.
But I won't know until I have the Bottlehead Crack, built it, and try the tubes.



bcowen said:


> what turned me off was 1) they have no pictures of the tube(s) listed and only minimal descriptions, and 2) they don't state whether the tube is NOS, what condition it's in, or any test measurements.



Yeah, I 100% agree with you.
Most of the tube stores, incl Vintage Tube Services (http://vintagetubeservices.com/) and Audio Tubes (http://www.audiotubes.com/) don't show measurement as well.
It relies a lot on the seller honesty and reputation esp if you don't have a tube tester.

So, Vacuumtubes.net is a miss for me.
They obviously don't check and test every single tube before shipping as they claim.
The good thing is at least they're responsive.
Always pay with Paypal when dealing with them to add another level of security.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Ok guys I'm on the hunt for My first tube (one I actually found and bought  ) So i am asking for direction!

What was one of the first reasonably priced NOS tubes you got and enjoyed. I don't wanna complicate this but I'm new to 6SN7's and honestly have no idea whats crap and what's good, other than what I've learned reading here.

So lets say my budget is 25-75 bucks, what would you search for? Or what was a tube in that price range that surprised you in sound?

Thanks Looking forward to the hunt!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Ok guys I'm on the hunt for My first tube (one I actually found and bought  ) So i am asking for direction!
> 
> What was one of the first reasonably priced NOS tubes you got and enjoyed. I don't wanna complicate this but I'm new to 6SN7's and honestly have no idea whats crap and what's good, other than what I've learned reading here.
> 
> ...


Lot of folks like the grey glass RCA..  but I'm not in that camp. National Union or CBS-Hytron surprised me for the monies. Tung Sol Mouse Ears the same.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> Lot of folks like the grey glass RCA..  but I'm not in that camp. National Union or CBS-Hytron surprised me for the monies. Tung Sol Mouse Ears the same.



Thank you! I do see quite a few CBS-Hytrons and was looking at a few, Appreciate the advice!!


----------



## therremans

@Mr BubbaHyde 
What phones do you have?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

therremans said:


> @Mr BubbaHyde
> What phones do you have?



Sennheiser HD58X , Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro on the way.

Keep in mind I also use the darkvoice as a Pre to my Full system as well

Headphones for me is reserved for late night, when I don't want to bother anyone..lol


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

@JKDJedi 

Like this? lol


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 15, 2020)

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> @JKDJedi
> 
> Like this? lol


That's the mouse ear. 👍


----------



## Deceneu808

The Darkvoice just entered the building. Tubes coming in next week. Svetlana 6AS7GA, Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB & Psvane UK - 6SN7. Any tips ?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




￼


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Deceneu808 said:


> The Darkvoice just entered the building. Tubes coming in next week. Svetlana 6AS7GA, Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB & Psvane UK - 6SN7. Any tips ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Way too new for Tube advice, Waaayyy smarter people here than I in that area, But I will say damn I love that little Zen DAC!! Always impressed whenever I use it! Enjoy!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> The Darkvoice just entered the building. Tubes coming in next week. Svetlana 6AS7GA, Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB & Psvane UK - 6SN7. Any tips ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glass of wine ...and enjoy.. awesome. Which Tung Sol did you get, NOS or New?


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> Glass of wine ...and enjoy.. awesome. Which Tung Sol did you get, NOS or New?


New, they didn't have the NOS for sale. I got the Psvane NOS


----------



## sennfan83261

Deceneu808 said:


> New, they didn't have the NOS for sale. I got the Psvane NOS


Aren't Psvane's currently produced? I thought NOS meant "new old stock" (i.e. old stock of tubes no longer in production that are at least like "new" -- only tested). Or maybe that's just my definition for NOS when it comes to tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> New, they didn't have the NOS for sale. I got the Psvane NOS


New... PSvane is new ..


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Aren't Psvane's currently produced? I thought NOS meant "new old stock" (i.e. old stock of tubes no longer in production that are at least like "new" -- only tested). Or maybe that's just my definition for NOS when it comes to tubes.


Poor guy just got ganged up on...😂😂 Yes correct. 👍


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Poor guy just got ganged up on...😂😂 Yes correct. 👍


Well, it is just a minor infraction. Not enough to get tossed out of this thread's treehouse, lol.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Oct 15, 2020)

sennfan83261 said:


> Aren't Psvane's currently produced? I thought NOS meant "new old stock" (i.e. old stock of tubes no longer in production that are at least like "new" -- only tested). Or maybe that's just my definition for NOS when it comes to tubes.



Well it says NOS on the website in the products name don't really know why lol. Must be a mistake in the title because below says brand new. Sorry for the confusion, this is my first dabble in to tubes


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Well it says NOS on the website in the products name don't really know why lol. Must be a mistake in the title because below says brand new. Sorry for the confusion, this is my first dabble in to tubes


No worries... 😂 We all went through the same initiation 😏


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No worries... 😂 We all went through the same initiation 😏



Yes, and some of us still have the scars to prove it.


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Ok guys I'm on the hunt for My first tube (one I actually found and bought  ) So i am asking for direction!
> 
> What was one of the first reasonably priced NOS tubes you got and enjoyed. I don't wanna complicate this but I'm new to 6SN7's and honestly have no idea whats crap and what's good, other than what I've learned reading here.
> 
> ...



OK, the first NOS tube that blew me away was an RCA 5AR4.  So it's a rectifier and doesn't apply to the DV...you didn't state conditions.  

When it comes to headphones (and their amps), my first holy grail moment was when I learned after many many years of tube escapades what an adapter was.  I guess I grew up in old-school land where an amp that came with a 6SN7 used a 6SN7. And just a 6SN7. But a 7N7 (with an adapter)?  Huh?  A pair of 6J5's?  Huh?  Suffice it to say that the bottom fell out of the rabbit hole at that point.  My first exploration in this vast and perilous new universe remains one of my greatest though:  the Frankentube, or a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7 with particular construction details. A 7N7 is a direct electrical equivalent to a 6SN7, but it has a loctal base instead of the 6SN7's octal base so you have to use an adapter in a socket intended for a 6SN7.  The first one of those I bought was $5, and I still use it today.  Then if you want to up the ante a bit (but not hugely), there's the 6J5 (and equivalents) to play with.  A 6J5 is (kind of) electrically equivalent to a 6SN7 except that it has only one triode (a 6SN7 has 2). So you need an adapter for it, and you need two tubes instead of one, 'cause each triode is for one channel.  I'm digging the GEC L63's right now (which is a 6J5 sub).  Fellow HeadFi'er @Deyan makes awesome adapters, so if you decide at some point to visit us in the rabbit hole (or even buy your own condo ) I highly recommend you PM him for any adapter needs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt


----------



## therremans

*Off topic rant*: I wonder what some of the workers would think today (if they were alive) about the going rate of some vintage tubes. Like this pair of Western Electric for $5,500, etc. it’s baffling why anyone would pay that for something that has a lifespan.

Regardless, what balls PSVane has to copy the tube 1:1 and charge $4,300 for new production. Just because the originals are rare and (nutty) people will pay it... You can’t just recreate a tube (steal the vintage design) and try to get near the price. Well they have. It’s criminal IMO.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Off topic rant*: I wonder what some of the workers would think today (if they were alive) about the going rate of some vintage tubes. Like this pair of Western Electric for $5,500, etc. it’s baffling why anyone would pay that for something that has a lifespan.
> 
> Regardless, what balls PSVane has to copy the tube 1:1 and charge $4,300 for new production. Just because the originals are rare and (nutty) people will pay it... You can’t just recreate a tube (steal the vintage design) and try to get near the price. Well they have. It’s criminal IMO.



ROFL!  Seems logic has long since flown the coop on anything that has a Western Electric brand on it.  Not sure what's more disturbing in the one below: that someone is selling broken tubes, or that someone has actually bid $199 for them.  Gotta love the seller's text though -- "still fixable?"  Where's that guy on TV with the Flex Seal when you need him...     

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Pair-B...190655?hash=item1f17acdbff:g:X9UAAOSwuwVff5nw


----------



## therremans

Ahh wow yeah, someone’s mantle piece. Well, if they turn the tube around and take a picture, it’s _kind_ of like the real thing!


----------



## therremans

*Fun fact*: The longest recorded valve life was earned by a Mazda AC/P pentode valve (serial No. 4418) in operation at the BBC's main Northern Ireland transmitter at Lisnagarvey. The valve was in service from 1935 until 1961 and had a recorded life of 232,592 hours. The BBC maintained meticulous records of their valves' lives with periodic returns to their central valve stores.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

bcowen said:


> OK, the first NOS tube that blew me away was an RCA 5AR4.  So it's a rectifier and doesn't apply to the DV...you didn't state conditions.
> 
> When it comes to headphones (and their amps), my first holy grail moment was when I learned after many many years of tube escapades what an adapter was.  I guess I grew up in old-school land where an amp that came with a 6SN7 used a 6SN7. And just a 6SN7. But a 7N7 (with an adapter)?  Huh?  A pair of 6J5's?  Huh?  Suffice it to say that the bottom fell out of the rabbit hole at that point.  My first exploration in this vast and perilous new universe remains one of my greatest though:  the Frankentube, or a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7 with particular construction details. A 7N7 is a direct electrical equivalent to a 6SN7, but it has a loctal base instead of the 6SN7's octal base so you have to use an adapter in a socket intended for a 6SN7.  The first one of those I bought was $5, and I still use it today.  Then if you want to up the ante a bit (but not hugely), there's the 6J5 (and equivalents) to play with.  A 6J5 is (kind of) electrically equivalent to a 6SN7 except that it has only one triode (a 6SN7 has 2). So you need an adapter for it, and you need two tubes instead of one, 'cause each triode is for one channel.  I'm digging the GEC L63's right now (which is a 6J5 sub).  Fellow HeadFi'er @Deyan makes awesome adapters, so if you decide at some point to visit us in the rabbit hole (or even buy your own condo ) I highly recommend you PM him for any adapter needs.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt


Thank You very much for the education, Sincerely appreciated, I am definitely interested in the rabbit hole, but I'm gonna take my time in getting there! lol

I am quite aware I'm on a "Headphone Forum" but first and foremost I will listen to my tubes thru the DV as a pre-amp, most of the time as I am trying really hard to get farther into the headphone Lifestyle, That's a long story a difficult for me to explain in an open forum, maybe one day.

Having a home studio has a certain call and need for "Cans" but honestly I prefer not, but am learning everyday the greater appreciation the "Cans " bring versus listening to the "room" and speakers.

Many people have their opinions very strong on both so I don't wanna get into that circle, I'm sure we are all here because of our passion for great sound and music on general. But I have had people tell me you can't hear a difference using "Tubes" or Buffers or whatever in a speaker based system. They are wrong and I know it but sometimes theres no point,lol

Thanks again, and so you know I have been trying to digest the different tubes and adapters, because I do want to try whatever I can afford. Just as a for instance a friend of mine swears by, (I have Never heard it) his Northern electric 6SN7, so I have interest in it, but it never seems to be available and also, I rarely hear anyone mention it in any forums I explore.

Apparently I forgot my meds because I'm droning..lmao Have a great night guy's...see ya soon

Oh and @JKDJedi I do love that WestingHouse!


----------



## MrMarc

Anyone have any interest in this trio of very low time  (<20hrs each) driver tubes? I no longer have a use for them and they deserve a new home!

RCA 6080
GE 6AS7GA 
RCA 6AS7

I have these for sale. PM me. No reasonable offer refused! 

Cheers!


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Thank You very much for the education, Sincerely appreciated, I am definitely interested in the rabbit hole, but I'm gonna take my time in getting there! lol
> 
> I am quite aware I'm on a "Headphone Forum" but first and foremost I will listen to my tubes thru the DV as a pre-amp, most of the time as I am trying really hard to get farther into the headphone Lifestyle, That's a long story a difficult for me to explain in an open forum, maybe one day.



Glad to help with suggestions (and of course, my own opinion, FWIW) anytime.  I enjoy both the big rig and the headphone rig equally.  Domestic considerations limit my ability to listen to the big rig at times the way I want to (you know, at 100+ dB levels ) which is when I turn to the HP rig to get my music fix.  I've spent most of my audio life with full size systems, and only got into HP's a couple years ago. And I stumbled around clumsily at first until I finally put something together that was enjoyable and involving.    



Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Many people have their opinions very strong on both so I don't wanna get into that circle, I'm sure we are all here because of our passion for great sound and music on general. But I have had people tell me you can't hear a difference using "Tubes" or Buffers or whatever in a speaker based system. They are wrong and I know it but sometimes theres no point,lol



True that. Hard to reason with people that already have their mind made up. And to those folks all I can say is to each his own, but if you can't hear a difference between a 300B-based SET tube amp and a solid state whatever amp, then your time is much better spent with some other hobby.


----------



## DenverW

So here is an interesting pic from an ebay auction for two western electric 421a.  I find it interesting because the tubes are clearly different in the getter (and other areas) due to manufacturing date.  Unless something funky is going on, this is a pretty clear indication of differing types.


----------



## therremans

*Tung-Sol VT-163 6C8G*


DenverW said:


> So here is an interesting pic from an ebay auction for two western electric 421a.  I find it interesting because the tubes are clearly different in the getter (and other areas) due to manufacturing date.  Unless something funky is going on, this is a pretty clear indication of differing types.


Yes halo and D getter.. what is the asking price of this mixed pair? I am surprised by the attraction that this brand name pulls in... I myself love finding a mix of power and output tubes that sound incredible.. for a bargain. It is apart of the fun for me.


----------



## therremans (Oct 16, 2020)

*Tung-Sol VT-163 JAN-CTL-6C8G (round black plates) NOS 100%+*
Okay, so the 6C8G works *very *well on the Darkvoice and is definitely a new favorite. 
I have been waiting for a Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G to show up at a reasonable price, but no luck as of yet. This 6C8G will sound the same, yet on paper it has more gain than the 6F8G, but still sounds so wonderful. It does not play well with my Tung-Sol 5998.. which for someone on a budget is a good thing. I expected the volume knob to be very sensitive with the 5998, but it wasn't that at all.. the sound was actually on the thin and gritty side.. it lacked depth and wasn't moving. Next up, my NOS 1950 RCA JAN-6AS7G black plates.. better but still pretty lifeless.

Now with my minty Edicron branded Svetlana "Winged C" 6H13C (NOS 1986), it shines! You can immediately hear that it's a very balanced combination. It was the first power tube I chose to demo this 6C8G on and looped back to it at the end. This has really shown what a difference the right combination can make.. The Svetlana has the low end power + accuracy and the Tung-Sol is extremely detailed. Every slight nuance of the instrument is revealed, sounds I did not notice before. This is probably the biggest surprise.. just how it brought out so much detail in songs I know so well. Nice lows, even on HD6XX, midrange is moving and powerful, high end is crisp but never fatiguing. The soundstage isn't so wide, not narrow but more in a realistic sense. The stereo separation is great. It's wonderfully musical.

Tracks like _Joy Division - Decades_ (high treble range) do not destroy my hearing._ Booka Shade - Body Language_, this combo can fully produce the low, mid and high end with no problem. It's just quite balanced and energetic. I keep wanting to play track after track. I wish I could let you all hear it.. a Chatham 6080WA will arrive tomorrow and I am looking forward to hearing how that pairs. The pair of GEC L63s arriving soon have some real competition.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 16, 2020)

DenverW said:


> So here is an interesting pic from an ebay auction for two western electric 421a.  I find it interesting because the tubes are clearly different in the getter (and other areas) due to manufacturing date.  Unless something funky is going on, this is a pretty clear indication of differing types.


I have the 76' version of that tube with the halo getters. Would love to have the older 60's double D getter of these guys. And nothing funky about the slight variation, all tubes go through slight variations, look at the Bendix 6080, there's a half dozen variations of that tube itself.. even a metal plated Bendix is out there. RCA 6as7g.. some are bottom getters, some top, some have dual getters some just the one..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have the 76' version of that tube with the halo getters. Would love to have the older 60's double D getter of these guys. And nothing funky about the slight variation, all tubes go through slight variations, look at the Bendix 6080, there's a half dozen variations of that tube itself.. even a metal plated Bendix is out there. RCA 6as7g.. some are bottom getters, some top, some have dual getters some just the one..



Double-D's are _always_ preferable.  

Oh, wait...we're talking about tubes.  Nevermind.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol VT-163 JAN-CTL-6C8G (round black plates) NOS 100%+*
> Okay, so the 6C8G works *very *well on the Darkvoice and is definitely a new favorite.
> I have been waiting for a Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G to show up at a reasonable price, but no luck as of yet. This 6C8G will sound the same, yet on paper it has more gain than the 6F8G, but still sounds so wonderful. It does not play well with my Tung-Sol 5998.. which for someone on a budget is a good thing. I expected the volume knob to be very sensitive with the 5998, but it wasn't that at all.. the sound was actually on the thin and gritty side.. it lacked depth and wasn't moving. Next up, my NOS 1950 RCA JAN-6AS7G black plates.. better but still pretty lifeless, come to think of it, that RCA hasn't impressed me once. It is mint but time to sell it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing!  I have RCA and National Union 6C8G's, but no Tung Sol...and no 6F8G's.  Time to set up a couple new Ebay searches.  LOL!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Should I want this kind of Tube?? Found on Ebay...lol


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol VT-163 JAN-CTL-6C8G (round black plates) NOS 100%+*
> Okay, so the 6C8G works *very *well on the Darkvoice and is definitely a new favorite.
> I have been waiting for a Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G to show up at a reasonable price, but no luck as of yet. This 6C8G will sound the same, yet on paper it has more gain than the 6F8G, but still sounds so wonderful. It does not play well with my Tung-Sol 5998.. which for someone on a budget is a good thing. I expected the volume knob to be very sensitive with the 5998, but it wasn't that at all.. the sound was actually on the thin and gritty side.. it lacked depth and wasn't moving. Next up, my NOS 1950 RCA JAN-6AS7G black plates.. better but still pretty lifeless, come to think of it, that RCA hasn't impressed me once. It is mint but time to sell it.
> 
> ...





Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Should I want this kind of Tube?? Found on Ebay...lol


You got 5 minutes to steal this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383753688502


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Should I want this kind of Tube?? Found on Ebay...lol



It's a sought after tube, no doubt.  Tonally balanced to the warm side, but partnered with the right output tube -- perhaps a Svet Winged C or a TS/Cetron/Sylvania 7236 -- it could be quite nice. I like the CBS/Hytron version of the 5692 a bit better myself, but that's totally a personal preference thing.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You got 5 minutes to steal this one
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/383753688502



LOL!  Great minds and all.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> You got 5 minutes to steal this one
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/383753688502



I'm dying here today!!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 16, 2020)

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I'm dying here today!!!


Buy it!!!


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I'm dying here today!!!



ROFL!  Just go ahead with the deposit on the rabbit hole condo.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Balls......I'm kinda of a buy it now guy...LMAO


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Just go ahead with the deposit on the rabbit hole condo.



Now I'm gonna start drinking!!!

I had the winning bid amount on Both of those tubes, and forgot both times to hit the confirm in time!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Balls......I'm kinda of a buy it now guy...LMAO


That tube usually sells for $100-$120....just sold for $54.. 🙂


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> That tube usually sells for $100-$120....just sold for $54.. 🙂


Thanks @JKDJedi !!!

Make it a double!


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> RCA 6as7g.. some are bottom getters, some top, some have dual getters some just the one..


Is there a generally regarded preference? Getter type + plate color.


----------



## therremans

Deliveries..


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 16, 2020)

therremans said:


> Is there a generally regarded preference? Getter type + plate color.


For some tubes (probably most of them) yes, one is preferred over the other.


----------



## therremans (Oct 16, 2020)

Do any of you cool your tubes to potentially extend lifespan? (Tube Coolers & Equipment Reliability)
Cheap: 4" USB fan on eBay


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Do any of you cool your tubes to potentially extend lifespan? (Tube Coolers & Equipment Reliability)
> 
> Cheap: 4" fan on eBay


Little fan works fine.


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> I have the 76' version of that tube with the halo getters. Would love to have the older 60's double D getter of these guys. And nothing funky about the slight variation, all tubes go through slight variations, look at the Bendix 6080, there's a half dozen variations of that tube itself.. even a metal plated Bendix is out there. RCA 6as7g.. some are bottom getters, some top, some have dual getters some just the one..




Just how much would you love to have a D getter version?  Wink wink!


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Just how much would you love to have a D getter version?  Wink wink!


Hook line and sinker!! 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Deliveries..


 Can't wait to hear your evaluation of these guys..


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Deliveries..



Dang, man....that's like a Who's Who of awesome tubes.  Nice!!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Do any of you cool your tubes to potentially extend lifespan? (Tube Coolers & Equipment Reliability)
> Cheap: 4" USB fan on eBay



No.  I doubt that Mazda you referenced earlier had external cooling.  And if you look at some of the old (_old_) telephone switchgear boxes where Western Electric 300B's ran commonly for 20+ years of 24/7 operation, they didn't have any cooling....just vents.  Not to say cooling can't help, just that I'm of the opinion that in open air designs (like the DV), it's not necessary to get a long life out of the tube(s).  

And who are we kidding...most tubes don't last 2 _*weeks*_ in our systems before they're swapped out with something else anyway.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Is there a generally regarded preference? Getter type + plate color.



Just on a general, overall, FWIW basis, D-getters and black plates are usually indicative of earlier production. And on a general, overall, FWIW basis, earlier sounds better than later.  That's probably about as helpful as tits on a bull, but so are most of my opinions.


----------



## therremans

4" fan on eBay


bcowen said:


> No.  I doubt that Mazda you referenced earlier had external cooling.  And if you look at some of the old (_old_) telephone switchgear boxes where Western Electric 300B's ran commonly for 20+ years of 24/7 operation, they didn't have any cooling....just vents.  Not to say cooling can't help, just that I'm of the opinion that in open air designs (like the DV), it's not necessary to get a long life out of the tube(s).
> 
> And who are we kidding...most tubes don't last 2 _*weeks*_ in our systems before they're swapped out with something else anyway.  LOL!!


Haha yes, I fully agree. Not at all necessary but why not fix a problem that doesn’t exist?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Just on a general, overall, FWIW basis, D-getters and black plates are usually indicative of earlier production. And on a general, overall, FWIW basis, earlier sounds better than later.  That's probably about as helpful as tits on a bull, but so are most of my opinions.


Oh good.
Black plates ✅
D-getter ✅


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh good.
> Black plates ✅
> D-getter ✅



Cool!  That's earlier then even me, which is becoming more of a challenge every year.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Oh good.
> Black plates ✅
> D-getter ✅


Those sound better (to my ears) than the top getter RCA. There's an unproven theory that bottom getter tubes sound better because of less particles spread throughout the plates from the getter flash.


----------



## therremans (Oct 17, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Can't wait to hear your evaluation of these guys..


The 6C5Gs - Paired with the Tung-Sol 5998, they have a pretty forward sound, not too much instrument separation going on. Very old tube sounding, pretty warm, lacking impactful midrange or low-end. Not bad but felt average. I'll come back to them later as I don't even have a matching pair yet. I thought they would shine on the Tung-Sol 7236 but they are unfortunately not compatible (at least mine). May work well with the 6080WA, will try that next.

The GEC L63s - Airy, warm, midrange bloom, forward soundstage and can be impactful with the right music, low end is mild but still there. I preferred them paired with the Tung-Sol 5998. It helped clean up that midrange hump (bloat?) without removing the airy quality that they have. I had to try out the Tung-Sol 7236 with these and although the 7236 was better at removing the midrange bloom, it just sounded too sterile. The 7236 pushed the vocals forward and took away too much of the midrange and bass impact. The music sounded like it was being run through a filter and the treble became intense. Yeah they are pretty nice sounding tubes but right now they are like my 2nd or 3rd favorite.

Tung-Sol VT-163 6C8G - Lively, fast, musical and _very_ detailed. Paired with that Amperex Edicron Svetlana Winged-C, it has something special going on. I think it's possibly unique to my setup. The extra gain from the 6C8G is really welcomed on the HD6XX headphones. It brings out the midrange, low-end and creates some impact. Normal soundstage with decent instrument separation. Vocals are not in the front and center (or as smooth), as with the L63 or especially the Zenith 6J5Gs. The vocals are the downfall here. They are not really pulled out all the way as much as I would want. Also the high-end never gets really clean/crisp. Possibly due to the Winged-C.

Zenith 6J5Gs - I like how this tube pairs with the Tung-Sol 5998. _Very _wide sound stage, really dynamic tubes.. as although they are on the warm side and have that creamy midrange, the low or high-end is not forgotten. It is able to have _really _good instrument separation and yet keep the vocals centered. Very warm and smooth sound. It's just more balanced and a more enjoyable listen than the L63.

Chatham 6080WA - Subbed the 5998 or Winged-C out with this on some and it never won. It sounded pretty nice though. Warm but brighter than my RCA 6AS7G or the Winged C, but low-end lacking vs those two. I need to listen to this one a bit more.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> The 6C5Gs - Paired with the Tung-Sol 5998, they have a pretty forward sound, not too much instrument separation going on. Very old tube sounding, pretty warm, lacking impactful midrange or low-end. Not bad but felt average. I'll come back to them later as I don't even have a matching pair yet. I thought they would shine on the Tung-Sol 7236 but they are unfortunately not compatible (at least mine). May work well with the 6080WA, will try that next.
> 
> The GEC L63s - Airy, warm, midrange bloom, forward soundstage and can be impactful with the right music, low end is mild but still there. I preferred them paired with the Tung-Sol 5998. It helped clean up that midrange hump (bloat?) without removing the airy quality that they have. I had to try out the Tung-Sol 7236 with these and although the 7236 was better at removing the midrange bloom, it just sounded too sterile. The 7236 pushed the vocals forward and took away too much of the midrange and bass impact. The music sounded like it was being run through a filter and the treble became intense. Yeah they are pretty nice sounding tubes but right now they are like my 2nd or 3rd favorite.
> 
> ...



Awesome!  Thanks much for the detailed impressions.  I can't tell for sure from your photo -- does the Chatham have steel plates or graphite plates?  If the latter, I found that tube needs a good 25+ hours of break-in, and after that needs 20+ minutes of warm-up (from cold) to get into its groove. The bass on both of mine was MIA at the outset, but developed pretty nicely after they broke in some.  The Svet probably still holds the upper hand in that area, but the Chatham is not as much of a slouch once it reaches its sonic peak.  Was your Svetlana Amperex Winged-C made in the Russian province of England like mine?  LOL!!!


----------



## therremans

I meant to type Edicron, Made in UK. The Chatham isn’t the graphite plate version. I’ll let it play more to break it in.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> The 6C5Gs - Paired with the Tung-Sol 5998, they have a pretty forward sound, not too much instrument separation going on. Very old tube sounding, pretty warm, lacking impactful midrange or low-end. Not bad but felt average. I'll come back to them later as I don't even have a matching pair yet. I thought they would shine on the Tung-Sol 7236 but they are unfortunately not compatible (at least mine). May work well with the 6080WA, will try that next.
> 
> The GEC L63s - Airy, warm, midrange bloom, forward soundstage and can be impactful with the right music, low end is mild but still there. I preferred them paired with the Tung-Sol 5998. It helped clean up that midrange hump (bloat?) without removing the airy quality that they have. I had to try out the Tung-Sol 7236 with these and although the 7236 was better at removing the midrange bloom, it just sounded too sterile. The 7236 pushed the vocals forward and took away too much of the midrange and bass impact. The music sounded like it was being run through a filter and the treble became intense. Yeah they are pretty nice sounding tubes but right now they are like my 2nd or 3rd favorite.
> 
> ...


Great write up, I'd give those L63 20 hours before a critically listen, they are true NOS tubes that need some burn in, they'll open up like the same as the Zenith. And the 6C5G is surprise. They're applauded on another thread here as the cats meow, I hope one doesn't have to grab them expensive Fivre tubes to appreciate them. Brimar, Mullard? I have a set of RCA 6C5G coming in and I'm almost certain they're gonna sound as you described. And really hard to top a 5998. Great write up, thanks. 👍


----------



## therremans

Yes, I was going to add that the L63s are still fresh and that I’m going to leave them in for awhile. They will stay in the collection.


----------



## MrMarc

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol VT-163 JAN-CTL-6C8G (round black plates) NOS 100%+*
> Okay, so the 6C8G works *very *well on the Darkvoice and is definitely a new favorite.
> I have been waiting for a Tung-Sol VT-99 6F8G to show up at a reasonable price, but no luck as of yet. This 6C8G will sound the same, yet on paper it has more gain than the 6F8G, but still sounds so wonderful. It does not play well with my Tung-Sol 5998.. which for someone on a budget is a good thing. I expected the volume knob to be very sensitive with the 5998, but it wasn't that at all.. the sound was actually on the thin and gritty side.. it lacked depth and wasn't moving. Next up, my NOS 1950 RCA JAN-6AS7G black plates.. better but still pretty lifeless.
> 
> ...




Thanks for all the information. I will definitely consider some of these options the next time I perform the next series of "rollin".  I'm a BIG fan of the  Svetlana "Winged C" 6H13C and it's currently my standard power tube. I have found it to pair very nicely with a myriad of driver tubes from TS GTBs to PSVANE and many in-between. 

Marc


----------



## Katholm (Oct 17, 2020)

Guys, thank you for your help regarding the Leesound cheap darkvoice fake a couple pages earlier. I went and ordered a DV from the shenzhenaudio sale with a 2 year warranty. I wanted to ask something thats probably never been asked here, how old are your DV's?
And since its a tube rolling thread, i also bought a 3 year used RCA vt231 grey and a RCA 6as7g black plates which is also used for 3 years for 40$ as a pack to get rid of the shuguangang crap 
Now im after a nos 7236 tung sol to go with the rca vt431!

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## JKDJedi

Well blow me down and pick me up... I've just experienced my first ever microphonics on a tube..lol.. I can hear the headphone cable dragging and the pick up and placement of my coffee cup..


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 17, 2020)

Katholm said:


> Guys, thank you for your help regarding the Leesound cheap darkvoice fake a couple pages earlier. I went and ordered a DV from the shenzhenaudio sale with a 2 year warranty. I wanted to ask something thats probably never been asked here, how old are your DV's?
> And since its a tube rolling thread, i also bought a 3 year used RCA vt431 grey and a RCA 6as7g black plates which is also used for 3 years for 40$ as a pack to get rid of the shuguangang crap
> Now im after a nos 7236 tung sol to go with the rca vt431!
> 
> Thanks again everyone!


Hoping you meant *RCA VT231. *Great combo to start with, and congrats!! Welcome to the Darkside.


----------



## Katholm

JKDJedi said:


> Hoping you meant *RCA VT231. *Great combo to start with, and congrats!! Welcome to the DArkside.


Exactly this, editing now 
I'm still doing my home work!

Thank you!


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Well blow me down and pick me up... I've just experienced my first ever microphonics on a tube..lol.. I can hear the headphone cable dragging and the pick up and placement of my coffee cup..


Yes, did one of yours turn or was it a new purchase? You could likely return it.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes, did one of yours turn or was it a new purchase? You could likely return it.


thanks..but the shipping would be more than the return..lol, it's them Sylvania 7A4 tubes.. turns out the mids are not as great as the 6jb variants.... or it's just this tube set in particular. All good..walking over to the MAil Box and see what todays roll is gonna be..  (probably the deodorant I ordered from Amazon)


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> thanks..but the shipping would be more than the return..lol, it's them Sylvania 7A4 tubes.. turns out the mids are not as great as the 6jb variants.... or it's just this tube set in particular. All good..walking over to the MAil Box and see what todays roll is gonna be..  (probably the deodorant I ordered from Amazon)


I did get a set of black plate Sylvania’s. I read black plate is preferred on these?Also NU gray plates are on the way.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I did get a set of black plate Sylvania’s. I read black plate is preferred on these?Also NU gray plates are on the way.


Probably only come in black with these guys, they're more round than plated. I think they are...🤔 Getting the magnifying glass out


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Probably only come in black with these guys, they're more round than plated. I think they are...🤔 Getting the magnifying glass out


This seller had gray and black pairs. But Sylvania and National Union are the only two companies who made them.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 17, 2020)

therremans said:


> This seller had gray and black pairs. But Sylvania and National Union are the only two companies who made them.


I got the black pairs then... Now I'm gonna check them all 🤣
Really....grey? 🤔.. 7a4 correct?
EDIT: I just did a quick look and you are correct they do list these as grey and/or black plated tubes..only from the pics I can't tell a difference. Mine could be grey for all I know


----------



## JKDJedi

Dope ...just in.. RCA 6C5G.. see if they match eternally.


----------



## bcowen

Katholm said:


> I wanted to ask something thats probably never been asked here, how old are your DV's?



The paint is still drying on mine.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> All good..walking over to the MAil Box and see what todays roll is gonna be..  (probably the deodorant I ordered from Amazon)



Well, that's not as exciting as new tubes, but trust me....we're all glad you're getting deodorant.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 17, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well, that's not as exciting as new tubes, but trust me....we're all glad you're getting deodorant.


About to roll these guys.. letting them warm up and they were only off by 5 transcunductance (85-90)...talk about luck of the roll..(ordered from separate vendors, and yes that tape is gone, don't know why they do that 😐)


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> About to roll these guys.. letting them warm up and they were only off by 5 transcunductance (85-90)...talk about luck of the roll..(ordered from separate vendors, and yes that tape is gone, don't know why they do that 😐)



Coolness!  We'll be (im)patiently waiting for your sonic evaluation.  

That tape routine gets under my skin too. Usually it's old enough that you have to scrape it off. And I've even received ones where they put the tape over the silkscreening on the glass.  When I get those, I want to call Guido and Vinnie for a friendly 'educational' visit with the seller.


----------



## bcowen

Here's what my DV looks like right now.  I'm learning about voltage dividers.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Here's what my DV looks like right now.  I'm learning about voltage dividers.


🤔😑 What in the world!? 😝


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Coolness!  We'll be (im)patiently waiting for your sonic evaluation.
> 
> That tape routine gets under my skin too. Usually it's old enough that you have to scrape it off. And I've even received ones where they put the tape over the silkscreening on the glass.  When I get those, I want to call Guido and Vinnie for a friendly 'educational' visit with the seller.


#hint I've never had an RCA Radiotron made tube let me down.


----------



## therremans (Oct 17, 2020)

Received another 6C8G today. 1934 JAN National Union. Sounds wonderful like the Tung-Sol.

Also my third 6C5G arrived. A National Union. Listening now with the Tung-Sol 6C5G and sounding really nice on the winged-c. Hmm maybe better than the 5998 but too early to say. I’m looking forward to listening more to these when I get a matching pair. So far, yes great value.

Edit: put the 5998 back on and it does bring out more of the high-end. Pick these up for a low price and see how you like them.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 17, 2020)

therremans said:


> Received another 6C8G today. 1934 JAN National Union. Sounds wonderful like the Tung-Sol.
> 
> Also my third 6C5G arrived. A National Union. Listening now with the Tung-Sol 6C5G and sounding really nice with jazz on the winged-c. Hmm maybe better than the 5998 but like I said. I need a pair and more demoing. I’m looking forward to listening more to these when I get a matching pair. So far, yes great value.


NU are very nice, excellent grab. How do you read the dates on these tubes? Mine have OO (OQ?) under the 6C8G emblem and on the base 1C 🤔


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> NU are very nice, excellent grab. How do you read the dates on these tubes? Mine have OO under the 6C8G emblem and on the base 1C 🤔


Good question. The seller had it listed as “1934 TWINPLEX” but the box does say date accepted March, 1945.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Good question. The seller had it listed as “1934 TWINPLEX” but the box does say date accepted March, 1945.


Keep that box and tube... very nice grab.. I think mine are consumer.
http://pax-comm.com/pa01029.htm


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 18, 2020)

therremans said:


> Good question. The seller had it listed as “1934 TWINPLEX” but the box does say date accepted March, 1945.


I also bought from an ebay dealer who listed "1934 TWINPLEX" on several 6C8G's. I bought two Tung-Sol's that were labeled as such in the title of the ad. I highly doubt they were from 1934 because the 6C8G tube type was supposedly registered in 1937 (https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6c8g.html).


----------



## therremans

sennfan83261 said:


> I also bought from an ebay dealer who listed "1934 TWINPLEX" on several 6C8G's. I bought two Tung-Sol's that were labeled as such in the title of the ad. I highly doubt they were from 1934 because the 6C8G tube type was supposedly registered in 1937 (https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6c8g.html).


yeah agreed. Likely 40s. I wonder if he’s listing the equipment he pulled them from.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 18, 2020)

therremans said:


> yeah agreed. Likely 40s. I wonder if he’s listing the equipment he pulled them from.



That's a good guess.  I've never seen "Twinplex" as any part of a tube brand, label, or description before. OTOH, if the 6C8G wasn't introduced until 3 years later, it's doubtful a piece of equipment built prior to that would use that tube type...adapters didn't come along until HeadFi.  LOL!


----------



## Katholm

Im looking into adapters from our bulgarian friend 7N7 to 6sn7, and a dual 6j5 to 6sn7. Can anyone help me understand the pros and cons of 2 driver tubes over a single one? Do they have to "match"?
Thanks for your help @JKDJedi


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> That's a good guess.  I've never seen "Twinplex" as any part of a tube brand, label, or description before. OTOH, if the 6C8G wasn't introduced until 3 years later, it's doubtful a piece of equipment built prior to that would use that tube type...adapters didn't come along until HeadFi.  LOL!


I don't think it is a tube brand. Rather it appears to have been a receiver back in the day:

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...t-Wave-Craft-Short-Wave-Radio-Manual-1935.pdf (pg. 16, using a "type 19" tube; also see Ken-Rad's tube chart starting on p. 234, no mentioning of a 6C8G in 1935).

https://redeyeprep.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/my-twinplex-receiver/
https://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product627.html

Type-19:

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_19.html
RCA's type-19 tube manual from 1933: http://www.one-electron.com/Archives/RCA/RCA-AppNotes/RCA 1933 AN-18 Operation Conditions for the Type 19 Tube.pdf


----------



## therremans (Oct 18, 2020)

I wrote the gentleman on eBay asking about the twinplex. Sounds like an amplifier or something to me. Seems like Sennfan figured it out.

I guess the National Union date codes work like this. However, not sure if it’s always accurate..

*First letter:
G 1943
H 1944
I 1945
J 1946
K 1947
L 1948
M 1949
N 1950
O 1951
Etc*


----------



## therremans

Katholm said:


> Im looking into adapters from our bulgarian friend 7N7 to 6sn7, and a dual 6j5 to 6sn7. Can anyone help me understand the pros and cons of 2 driver tubes over a single one? Do they have to "match"?
> Thanks for your help @JKDJedi


Not really any pros or cons in using two tubes over one. But you should stick with the same manufacturer/design. The triodes don’t have to be matched. Given the choice or while shopping around, it can be something to look for but I wouldn’t pay much more for it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 19, 2020)

Katholm said:


> Im looking into adapters from our bulgarian friend 7N7 to 6sn7, and a dual 6j5 to 6sn7. Can anyone help me understand the pros and cons of 2 driver tubes over a single one? Do they have to "match"?
> Thanks for your help @JKDJedi


It helps a lot if they match, think it's ok if your off by 10-15 (maybe) I think your referring to the 6J5 tubes, they're not sold in pairs that often unfortunately. If you see them , grab them. The important thing with these dual setups, and probably the MAIN reason there has to be a dual setup (6J5 & friends) is that they are _single triode_ tubes. (only one plate) The 7N7 and 6SN7 are_ dual triode_ tubes. (two plates). They do do double duty, left and right channels. The single triode tubes  just do the one channel, hence the left and right setup, dual to single slot adapter. Like mentioned above find same manufacturer and type for best fit, roll of the dice but most of the time you get lucky. And hard to tell if they're not matched, ignorance is bliss.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> I don't think it is a tube brand. Rather it appears to have been a receiver back in the day:
> 
> https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...t-Wave-Craft-Short-Wave-Radio-Manual-1935.pdf (pg. 16, using a "type 19" tube; also see Ken-Rad's tube chart starting on p. 234, no mentioning of a 6C8G in 1935).
> 
> ...


What is Sherlock Holmes? Again...wow..amazing job @sennfan83261 ...Thank you!


----------



## therremans

Has anyone here compared their higher ohm headphones on the Darkvoice? 250/300/600. What do you have or recommend? 

I am trying to find a second pair to my HD6XX (300 ohm)


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Has anyone here compared their higher ohm headphones on the Darkvoice? 250/300/600. What do you have or recommend?
> 
> I am trying to find a second pair to my HD6XX (300 ohm)


Beyerdynamic is a great complement to the HD6XX.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Beyerdynamic is a great complement to the HD6XX.


It is my number one choice. I do read a lot of love/hate with their sound profile. and some reviewers are quick to recommend other brands. But I don’t see many with higher ohm options. I also know that my software will automatically tone down the highs some, so I’m not too concerned about it being harsh. IMO the 1990s are overpriced at $600 and I will wait until they are on sale this fall. I emailed Beyerdynamic and asked about an upcoming deal. 

Beyerdynamic choices offered in 600 ohm:
T1 2nd gen ($650)
DT-1990 ($600, ideally pay $400 or less)
DT-880 or DT-990 ($200)


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It is my number one choice. I do read a lot of love/hate with their sound profile. and some reviewers are quick to recommend other brands. But I don’t see many with higher ohm options. I also know that my software will automatically tone down the highs some, so I’m not too concerned about it being harsh. IMO the 1990s are overpriced at $600 and I will wait until they are on sale this fall. I emailed Beyerdynamic and asked about an upcoming deal.
> 
> Beyerdynamic choices offered in 600 ohm:
> T1 2nd gen ($650)
> ...


We have a Darkvoice user here that loves his T1 @SHIMACM


----------



## Katholm

therremans said:


> It is my number one choice. I do read a lot of love/hate with their sound profile. and some reviewers are quick to recommend other brands. But I don’t see many with higher ohm options. I also know that my software will automatically tone down the highs some, so I’m not too concerned about it being harsh. IMO the 1990s are overpriced at $600 and I will wait until they are on sale this fall. I emailed Beyerdynamic and asked about an upcoming deal.
> 
> Beyerdynamic choices offered in 600 ohm:
> T1 2nd gen ($650)
> ...


Good info. Ive listened to the dt880-600ohm and the driver flexes a lot when it gets busy, i like my 6xx a lot better.


----------



## JKDJedi

Dekoni lambskin pads help. Widens the stage and tames the highs.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> We have a Darkvoice user here that loves his T1 @SHIMACM


 
As JKDJedi said, I love my first generation T1. I already had the HD600, and I prefer the T1 by far.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> As JKDJedi said, I love my first generation T1. I already had the HD600, and I prefer the T1 by far.


Thank you. I don’t see any new 1st gens available anymore but the 2nd will do.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 19, 2020)

therremans said:


> Thank you. I don’t see any new 1st gens available anymore but the 2nd will do.


Here's one, 200ohm planars.
https://www.headphones.com/products/audeze-lcd-4-high-performance-open-back-over-ear-planar-magnetic-headphones?variant=32088578195527&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8rT8BRCbARIsALWiOvRdAkNo9jLAYXf0QzcX6VYUQnXM6yj4BD7XE9Cf9wIUvXEmhgG-vtEaAp_9EALw_wcB


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Here's one, 200ohm planars.
> https://www.headphones.com/products/audeze-lcd-4-high-performance-open-back-over-ear-planar-magnetic-headphones?variant=32088578195527&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8rT8BRCbARIsALWiOvRdAkNo9jLAYXf0QzcX6VYUQnXM6yj4BD7XE9Cf9wIUvXEmhgG-vtEaAp_9EALw_wcB


Sarcasm? Haha but do any planars work well with tube amps like the DV?

$4,000 is quite rich for a headphone that is known to have some quality control issues. I guess you better hope you have a warranty. Cracking of the wood (why use wood??) rings..$500 to replace. A driver failed? $1,200 for a new pair as they are matched. Also $100 to replace the poor failed connectors. It’s like the exotic car (suckers!) of the headphone world.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Sarcasm? Haha but do any planars work well with tube amps like the DV?
> 
> $4,000 is quite rich for a headphone that is known to have some quality control issues. I guess you better hope you have a warranty. Cracking of the wood (why use wood??) rings..$500 to replace. A driver failed? $1,200 for a new pair as they are matched. Also $100 to replace the poor failed connectors. It’s like the exotic car (suckers!) of the headphone world.


    Sorry, and yes, I concur, planars are not a good mix with tubed amps, but you'll get some guys in here who swear by them. I had a member who Pm'd me telling me how great his was.. what could I say? Congrats?  Now this guy I don't like so much but respect his reviews.. He's to honest.. He makes a blunt assessment between the HD6XX and the LCD-4. Check out the vid.


----------



## therremans

Link - doesn’t seem like they have good customer service either.


----------



## therremans (Oct 19, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, and yes, I concur, planars are not a good mix with tubed amps, but you'll get some guys in here who swear by them. I had a member who Pm'd me telling me how great his was.. what could I say? Congrats?  Now this guy I don't like so much but respect his reviews.. He's to honest.. He makes a blunt assessment between the HD6XX and the LCD-4. Check out the vid.



I easily talked myself out of the sennheiser hd800s at $1600. But I sometimes equate it to a well made guitar or something and I could maybe understand.

They are filling the top end niche and people will pay for “the best”.

The lcd-4 though..
I’m sure they sound great but 4 grand? Maybe they are handmade to order in the USA or maybe they take a couple weeks to produce? but I still wouldn’t pull that trigger myself. These companies may also spend so much in R&D that they have to recoup the costs. Down the road, the design breakthroughs tend to trickle down in their or other brands and allow the consumer to spend less.

I’ve never been to a CanJam but would gladly test them out for fun.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 19, 2020)

therremans said:


> I easily talked myself out of the sennheiser hd800s at $1600. But I sometimes equate it to a well made guitar or something and I could maybe understand.
> 
> They are filling the top end niche and people will pay for “the best”.
> 
> ...





therremans said:


> I easily talked myself out of the sennheiser hd800s at $1600. But I sometimes equate it to a well made guitar or something and I could maybe understand.
> 
> They are filling the top end niche and people will pay for “the best”.
> 
> ...


But it comes with gloves!    ( Too rich for me the same )


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 19, 2020)

Planars and low-impedance dynamics generally don't match well with OTL's like the Darkvoice. The former prefers a current-source over voltage, OTL's the Darkvoice being more voltage-dominated. The latter is negatively affected by the high output impedance values from OTL's like the Darkvoice. Anyways, my HE-6 and HE-500 just sounded wimpy from the Darkvoice. My Grado HF-3 sounded just flat-out wrong from the Darkvoice (mids are completely hollowed out). However, I am in Happytown with my high-impedance dynamics, HD6XX, driven by my Darkvoice*.

As for the LCD-4, I auditioned them once. Wasn't impressed.

*EDIT


----------



## therremans

Good input @sennfan83261. Darkvoice aside, has anyone heard an electrostatic setup? I have not but heard good things.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 19, 2020)

therremans said:


> Good input @sennfan83261. Darkvoice aside, has anyone heard an electrostatic setup? I have not but heard good things.


I tried a Stax SR-009S driven by a Blue Hawaii Special Edition (https://www.headamp.com/products/blue-hawaii-se), it was detailed, spacious, ethereal, and just plain lovely when listening to "Hotel California" from the Eagles. The timbre sounded a bit more on the artificial side though. However, when I switched to a drum n' bass track, the bass came out sounding like farts, lol. I definitely recommend anyone to try an electrostat setup once though. With the right song and setup, it sounds otherworldly.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Planars and low-impedance dynamics generally don't match well with OTL's like the Darkvoice. The former prefers a current-source over voltage, OTL's the Darkvoice being more voltage-dominated. The latter is negatively affected by the high output impedance values from OTL's like the Darkvoice. Anyways, my HE-6 and HE-500 just sounded wimpy from the Darkvoice. My Grado HF-3 sounded just flat-out wrong from the Darkvoice (mids are completely hollowed out). However, I am in Happytown with my high-impedance dynamics, HD6XX, driven by my Darkvoice*.
> 
> As for the LCD-4, I auditioned them once. Wasn't impressed.
> 
> *EDIT


But it comes with gloves!! 🤣😂 Ok I'll stop... Was teasing @therremans with the lcd4 thing.. 🤣😝


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 19, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> But it comes with gloves!! 🤣😂 Ok I'll stop... Was teasing @therremans with the lcd4 thing.. 🤣😝


Now thinking about it more, maybe the fact that the LCD-4 was a demo unit, and was undoubtedly passed around with ungloved, unclean hands, the sound was changed for the worse, . Surely, if I received the white-gloved treatment, then the LCD-4 would've sounded better, lol


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Now thinking about it more, maybe the fact that the LCD-4 was a demo unit, and was undoubtedly passed around with ungloved, unclean hands, the sound was changed for the worse, . Surely, if I received the white-gloved treatment, then the LCD-4 would've sounded better, lol


ROFL.... 😂🤣


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> sennfan83261 said:
> 
> 
> > Now thinking about it more, maybe the fact that the LCD-4 was a demo unit, and was undoubtedly passed around with ungloved, unclean hands, the sound was changed for the worse, . Surely, if I received the white-gloved treatment, then the LCD-4 would've sounded better, lol
> ...


Wait, I meant the LCD-4 receiving the white-glove treatment, not me personally (I wonder what that entails?  ).


----------



## therremans

sennfan83261 said:


> Wait, I meant the LCD-4 receiving the white-glove treatment, not me personally (I wonder what that entails?  ).


Yeah, I knew what you meant. Haha it’s like receiving a Rolex with white gloves. Or if you look in the boot of a Ferrari, it has white gloves with the tire change kit... I’m more on a Seiko budget.


----------



## bcowen

My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.


Your gonna need Michael Jackson gloves for that amp... Nice.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.



Glove rolling?


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Glove rolling?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.


Beautiful amp. Spending cash on something like a point to point hand wired amp with great components makes more sense to me than headphones that fall apart.


JKDJedi said:


> Your gonna need Michael Jackson gloves for that amp... Nice.


Yeah, they do look pretty similar..


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

bcowen said:


> My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.


I have 16 boxes of Rubber gloves, they came with a box from Harbor Freight!! 

That Jota is one Sweeeeeettttt piece! Lucky B****** !!!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Glove rolling?



LOL!  No shortage of undiscovered rabbit holes, huh?


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> My Jota amp came with white gloves.  OK, so it was more than $4k.  And it's not headphones. And this is subsequently totally irrelevant.  Except the glove part.


That Jota amp is a beauty, and it comes with gloves too! I bet you can't help yourself wear those gloves and watch yourself do some Adam West dance moves above the shiny reflective surface of that amp    :


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> That Jota amp is a beauty, and it comes with gloves too! I bet you can't help yourself wear those gloves and watch yourself do some Adam West dance moves above the shiny reflective surface of that amp    :



ROFL!  Yes, but only when nobody is home and the neighborhood has been evacuated....just to be sure I'm not seen.


----------



## therremans (Oct 20, 2020)

I have been letting the GEC L63 and Chatham 6080WA burn in a bit since they were NOS. I let the L63 run all night for a few. I do think I can hear a difference with the 6080WA or I just needed to listen to it more. It's been a nice addition and a pretty articulate power tube.. with a nice low-end. It surprised me as I owned a Chatham 6080 that I ended up letting it go. It's not as slow and deep as the winged-c, but still gets low. Maybe not quite as rounded off. It is like an in between of many 6as7g and 7236. I recommend it. The L63 are consistently revealing and detailed, but warm and mid-focused. I think they are not either that airy or tight, pretty natural and likely true to the recording. No problem with instrument separation, jazz and vocals are a bonus on these. They liked to be played loud. I also wonder if they would be a better match to headphones that have a more low and high-end emphasis. Just a thought.





Some new tubes arrived today. Still no 7A4 XXL adapter yet so I couldn't run them, National Union and Sylvania pairs. The RCA gray glass 6F8G sounded nice at first demo and I need to play them some more, these are a matched pair and I may let them go if someone needs a pair of 6F8Gs. The Sylvania 6J5GT were surprising good.. and at the price of $5 each, makes them a true bargain find.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 20, 2020)

therremans said:


> I have been letting the GEC L63 and Chatham 6080WA burn in a bit since they were NOS. I let the L63 run all night for a few. I do think I can hear a difference with the 6080WA or I just needed to listen to it more. It's been a nice addition and a pretty articulate power tube.. with a nice low-end. It surprised me as I owned a Chatham 6080 that I ended up letting it go. It's not as slow and deep as the winged-c, but still gets low. Maybe not quite as rounded off. It is like an in between of many 6as7g and 7236. I recommend it. The L63 are consistently revealing and detailed, but warm and mid-focused. I think they are not either that airy or tight, pretty natural and likely true to the recording. No problem with instrument separation, jazz and vocals are a bonus on these. They liked to be played loud. I also wonder if they would be a better match to headphones that have a more low and high-end emphasis. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Some new tubes arrived today. Still no 7A4 XXL adapter yet so I couldn't run them, National Union and Sylvania pairs. The RCA gray glass 6F8G sounded nice at first demo and I need to play them some more, these are a matched pair and I may let them go if someone needs a pair of 6F8Gs. The Sylvania 6J5GT were surprising good.. and at the price of $5 each, makes them a true bargain find.



Love the look of those RCA's!  And your sonic description of the L63's parallels mine pretty closely. Not my go-to tube(s) for rock or metal, but for classical they are an absolute delight. They partner nicely with a Cetron 7236 and a Russian 6N13S (6AS7G), are pretty decent with the TS 5998, but not the best synergy with RCA or Sylvania 6AS7's or 6080's being a bit too warm and lacking ultimate bass impact with those tubes.  When it comes to the soundstaging thing, I popped the good old Frankentube (Sylvania 7N7) into the Darkvoice the other day and was once again immediately struck with the depth, separation and delineation that tube provides in that area. It was one of my top 2 tubes in the Schiit Lyr 3, but it failed to impress when I first plugged it into the (OTL) Incubus amp. Hadn't tried it in the DV up to that point, but here as well and partnered with the TS 5998 it does that soundstage thing big time. Beyond that, it's kind of a jack of all trades tube -- does pretty well at everything, but isn't an expert at anything.   And when I'm in a heavy metal mood, these cheapie Pinnacles continue to impress. They're a Russian 6S2S, but I have no idea of their vintage or what factory they came out of and they need at least 25 hours of break-in before some initial stridency fades away. Probably on the solid state-ish side of things and NOT to be used with the 7236, but with the TS 5998 and/or Chatham 6AS7G, they hammer out bass notes like none other. Definitely the go-to tube if you want to blow the drivers out of your 'phones at some point.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 20, 2020)

therremans said:


> I have been letting the GEC L63 and Chatham 6080WA burn in a bit since they were NOS. I let the L63 run all night for a few. I do think I can hear a difference with the 6080WA or I just needed to listen to it more. It's been a nice addition and a pretty articulate power tube.. with a nice low-end. It surprised me as I owned a Chatham 6080 that I ended up letting it go. It's not as slow and deep as the winged-c, but still gets low. Maybe not quite as rounded off. It is like an in between of many 6as7g and 7236. I recommend it. The L63 are consistently revealing and detailed, but warm and mid-focused. I think they are not either that airy or tight, pretty natural and likely true to the recording. No problem with instrument separation, jazz and vocals are a bonus on these. They liked to be played loud. I also wonder if they would be a better match to headphones that have a more low and high-end emphasis. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Some new tubes arrived today. Still no 7A4 XXL adapter yet so I couldn't run them, National Union and Sylvania pairs. The RCA gray glass 6F8G sounded nice at first demo and I need to play them some more, these are a matched pair and I may let them go if someone needs a pair of 6F8Gs. The Sylvania 6J5GT were surprising good.. and at the price of $5 each, makes them a true bargain find.


Those Sylvania might be best for them HD6XX (as one member put it) that is a true bargain. They should sound the same as the military version of that tube. (VT-94D) They look carbon copy the same.. nice. And this is your 2nd round with the Chatham..lol, we have a user here who hated the Chatham.. (probably reading this at the moment) oh it was me!  At least on the Darkvoice and was urged, persuaded to give it a chance on another amp. glad I did. And you might be on to something with that headphone thing.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Love the look of those RCA's!  And your sonic description of the L63's parallels mine pretty closely. Not my go-to tube(s) for rock or metal, but for classical they are an absolute delight. They partner nicely with a Cetron 7236 and a Russian 6N13S (6AS7G), are pretty decent with the TS 5998, but not the best synergy with RCA or Sylvania 6AS7's or 6080's being a bit too warm and lacking ultimate bass impact with those tubes.  When it comes to the soundstaging thing, I popped the good old Frankentube (Sylvania 7N7) into the Darkvoice the other day and was once again immediately struck with the depth, separation and delineation that tube provides in that area. It was one of my top 2 tubes in the Schiit Lyr 3, but it failed to impress when I first plugged it into the (OTL) Incubus amp. Hadn't tried it in the DV up to that point, but here as well and partnered with the TS 5998 it does that soundstage thing big time. Beyond that, it's kind of a jack of all trades tube -- does pretty well at everything, but isn't an expert at anything.   And when I'm in a heavy metal mood, these cheapie Pinnacles continue to impress. They're a Russian 6S2S, but I have no idea of their vintage or what factory they came out of and they need at least 25 hours of break-in before some initial stridency fades away. Probably on the solid state-ish side of things and NOT to be used with the 7236, but with the TS 5998 and/or Chatham 6AS7G, they hammer out bass notes like none other. Definitely the go-to tube if you want to blow the drivers out of your 'phones at some point.


Have a Tung Sol 6520 (domino plated,   ) coming in . .. will roll it with the Frankie and then these Pinnacles (maybe)... Been awhile for the Frankie.  For those of you not in the know, BCOWEN found the Frankentube awhile back, and shared this find with his group (Lyr 3). (It's a true marvel of a tube) So many tubes so little time..


----------



## therremans

Yes, the tall Sylvania 7N7 correct? I read your praises before and have been looking for one to come up at a good price. I can pair it with the TS 5998. I’ve got to find one of these. The adapter is on the way.

The GECs did pair well with the Tung Sol 7236. I think since I’ve been rolling with the winged-c and 6080, initially miss the low end. I really need to snag a Chatham 6as7g soon, I let two go at a fair price and regret it. I wonder how it compares to the 6080WA (fuller, lower, rounder, slower but less detailed?) the pinnacles sound nice to try also. Thanks.

Yes, these and the military version VT-94D of the Sylvania’s look the same minus the branding. I’d like to get the JAN version just to compare. These metal based 6J5GTs can be had cheap still. I have a Raytheon VT-231 (6sn7) on the way and will be able to compare it to the VT-99 (6f8g) from the same vintage.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!  No shortage of undiscovered rabbit holes, huh?



Ahh, yes. So many things can be rolled. Tubes… cables… hedgehogs…


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes, the tall Sylvania 7N7 correct? I read your praises before and have been looking for one to come up at a good price. I can pair it with the TS 5998. I’ve got to find one of these. The adapter is on the way.
> 
> The GECs did pair well with the Tung Sol 7236. I think since I’ve been rolling with the winged-c and 6080, initially miss the low end. I really need to snag a Chatham 6as7g soon, I let two go at a fair price and regret it. I wonder how it compares to the 6080WA (fuller, lower, rounder, slower but less detailed?) the pinnacles sound nice to try also. Thanks.
> 
> Yes, these and the military version VT-94D of the Sylvania’s look the same minus the branding. I’d like to get the JAN version just to compare. These metal based 6J5GTs can be had cheap still. I have a Raytheon VT-231 (6sn7) on the way and will be able to compare it to the VT-99 (6f8g) from the same vintage.


The Raytheon VT231 is ok .., I'm betting the 6F8G will be a better experience. The Chatham has a nice wide soundstage compared to the Winged C,the Winged C tightens things up as you already know, but I'm curious as to what year is your copy of the Winged C is? I've never heard anyone praise this as much as you have. I have a 67' NOS not the "new" version of these tubes,


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yes, the tall Sylvania 7N7 correct? I read your praises before and have been looking for one to come up at a good price. I can pair it with the TS 5998. I’ve got to find one of these. The adapter is on the way.



I actually pretty much stopped tube rolling after the 7N7 (especially the frankie version or even similar tallglass and gray/smoke/black versions).  As @bcowen perfectly stated _"I popped the good old Frankentube (Sylvania 7N7) into the Darkvoice the other day and was once again immediately struck with the depth, separation and delineation that tube provides in that area.  "  _It is really a great tube due to these characteristics at least as it sounds through in the Darkvoice.  

Older posts from those who have tried 7N7 in general say that in some instances is bested by certain 6J5s.  So to those who have rolled both - how true is this?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Ahh, yes. So many things can be rolled. Tubes… cables… hedgehogs…



And even pastries at the seashore.  Who knew, right?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I actually pretty much stopped tube rolling after the 7N7 (especially the frankie version or even similar tallglass and gray/smoke/black versions).  As @bcowen perfectly stated _"I popped the good old Frankentube (Sylvania 7N7) into the Darkvoice the other day and was once again immediately struck with the depth, separation and delineation that tube provides in that area.  "  _It is really a great tube due to these characteristics at least as it sounds through in the Darkvoice.
> 
> Older posts from those who have tried 7N7 in general say that in some instances is bested by certain 6J5s.  So to those who have rolled both - how true is this?


Oh..you just went there.. oh oh.. (Fridays comparison)


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Oh..you just went there.. oh oh.. (Fridays comparison)



I gotta give you something to do while you reseed your lawn and watch grass grow.  

BTW - you mentioned the winged C's.  Mine is a 6H13C/1970.  Is yours really late 60s?  Very hard to find them pre 70s.  But soundstage is really nice with these.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I gotta give you something to do while you reseed your lawn and watch grass grow.
> 
> BTW - you mentioned the winged C's.  Mine is a 6H13C/1970.  Is yours really late 60s?  Very hard to find them pre 70s.  But soundstage is really nice with these.


yes, and gifted to me. I'm gonna have to give this tube a fair rolling next week, all week just the C winger.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, the tall Sylvania 7N7 correct? I read your praises before and have been looking for one to come up at a good price. I can pair it with the TS 5998. I’ve got to find one of these. The adapter is on the way.



Yes, a tall Sylvania 7N7 but it *must* have fully oval (racetrack) top and bottom micas (not rectangular with rounded ends) and getter flashing that covers 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the inside of the bottle. May sound silly, but there is a quite notable sonic difference between this version and other tall bottle Sylvanias.  I only see one on Ebay right now which is ridiculously priced, and considering it's not tested and sold as-is it exceeds ridiculous and crosses the border into stupid-land.     Real Frankies pop up every now and then usually in the $15 - $20 range (I grabbed a GE labeled one a couple months ago for $6 and $4 shipping). If the seller knew it wasn't actually made by GE, they probably would have asked more.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Have a Tung Sol 6520 (domino plated,   ) coming in...



Somehow I already knew that.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yes, a tall Sylvania 7N7 but it *must* have fully oval (racetrack) top and bottom micas (not rectangular with rounded ends) and getter flashing that covers 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the inside of the bottle. May sound silly, but there is a quite notable sonic difference between this version and other tall bottle Sylvanias.  I only see one on Ebay right now which is ridiculously priced, and considering it's not tested and sold as-is it exceeds ridiculous and crosses the border into stupid-land.    Real Frankies pop up every now and then usually in the $15 - $20 range (I grabbed a GE labeled one a couple months ago for $6 and $4 shipping). If the seller knew it wasn't actually made by GE, they probably would have asked more.



Have you ever seen a gray/black glass version of the Frankie?  I dont know if such a tube exists.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Somehow I already knew that.





bcowen said:


> Yes, a tall Sylvania 7N7 but it *must* have fully oval (racetrack) top and bottom micas (not rectangular with rounded ends) and getter flashing that covers 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the inside of the bottle. May sound silly, but there is a quite notable sonic difference between this version and other tall bottle Sylvanias.  I only see one on Ebay right now which is ridiculously priced, and considering it's not tested and sold as-is it exceeds ridiculous and crosses the border into stupid-land.    Real Frankies pop up every now and then usually in the $15 - $20 range (I grabbed a GE labeled one a couple months ago for $6 and $4 shipping). If the seller knew it wasn't actually made by GE, they probably would have asked more.





bcowen said:


> Somehow I already knew that.


And right after the "if you buy another light bulb"!! speech too...  (might be sleeping with the dog next week) I paid premium for my first batch of Frankies..(the real ones) and you know which one's they are folks.. right? and got super lucky with another for a $1 !! the shipping cost more on that one, and..an awesome dude, who's turned out to be the coolest, gifted me one.  or was it two..anyways.. like @Slade01 have a gang of these now..lol..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> And right after the "if you buy another light bulb"!! speech too...  (might be sleeping with the dog next week) I paid premium for my first batch of Frankies..(the real ones) and you know which one's they are folks.. right? and got super lucky with another for a $1 !! the shipping cost more on that one, and..an awesome dude, who's turned out to be the coolest, gifted me one.  or was it two..anyways.. like @Slade01 have a gang of these now..lol..



Guilty.  It's hard to pass up if you see them in the 10-20 dollar range.  But yeah, its really a needle in the haystack kind of search.  Half of where I found these were just part of random lots, so sometimes you just have to get lucky.

And jesus - yeah @JKDJedi to this day, i still rate your time to find the genuine JAN-CHS versions as one of the quickest finds ever -- and a pair no less in original pristine boxes.   You're faster to solve these mysteries than scooby doo and the gang.  Truely a gift.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The Raytheon VT231 is ok .., I'm betting the 6F8G will be a better experience. The Chatham has a nice wide soundstage compared to the Winged C,the Winged C tightens things up as you already know, but I'm curious as to what year is your copy of the Winged C is? I've never heard anyone praise this as much as you have. I have a 67' NOS not the "new" version of these tubes,


It was a surprise to me as well. Arrived looking like it was never opened and is from the very end of 1986. I favor it to that RCA 1950 bottom getter JAN 6as7g that you saw before. (Maybe it needs to burn in some as it was very much nos)


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It was a surprise to me as well. Arrived looking like it was never opened and is from the very end of 1986. I favor it to that RCA 1950 bottom getter JAN 6as7g that you saw before. (Maybe it needs to burn in some as it was very much nos)


Can I get a shot of the getters?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Yes, a tall Sylvania 7N7 but it *must* have fully oval (racetrack) top and bottom micas (not rectangular with rounded ends) and getter flashing that covers 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the inside of the bottle. May sound silly, but there is a quite notable sonic difference between this version and other tall bottle Sylvanias.  I only see one on Ebay right now which is ridiculously priced, and considering it's not tested and sold as-is it exceeds ridiculous and crosses the border into stupid-land.    Real Frankies pop up every now and then usually in the $15 - $20 range (I grabbed a GE labeled one a couple months ago for $6 and $4 shipping). If the seller knew it wasn't actually made by GE, they probably would have asked more.


Yeah I saw this the other week when I was hunting one down. It was also an easy pass. It’ll pop up eventually. Thanks for the description of the micas. I’ll surely get the right one now.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Can I get a shot of the getters?


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I actually pretty much stopped tube rolling after the 7N7 (especially the frankie version or even similar tallglass and gray/smoke/black versions).  As @bcowen perfectly stated _"I popped the good old Frankentube (Sylvania 7N7) into the Darkvoice the other day and was once again immediately struck with the depth, separation and delineation that tube provides in that area.  "  _It is really a great tube due to these characteristics at least as it sounds through in the Darkvoice.
> 
> Older posts from those who have tried 7N7 in general say that in some instances is bested by certain 6J5s.  So to those who have rolled both - how true is this?


I’ll let you know when I land one. I wonder how the Zenith 6J5Gs (Mine are made by Sylvania, the engraved base version is made by Raytheon) would compare to this Sylvania 7N7, they both have a wide soundstage.

Have you compared the tall 7n7 to a pair of Sylvania 7a4?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Guilty.  It's hard to pass up if you see them in the 10-20 dollar range.  But yeah, its really a needle in the haystack kind of search.  Half of where I found these were just part of random lots, so sometimes you just have to get lucky.
> 
> And jesus - yeah @JKDJedi to this day, i still rate your time to find the genuine JAN-CHS versions as one of the quickest finds ever -- and a pair no less in original pristine boxes.   You're faster to solve these mysteries than scooby doo and the gang.  Truely a gift.



True that on the needle in a haystack.  Here's one...a Lansdale labeled one to boot. But can't see the test readings on it, so it would be irresponsible to recommend it.  Crapshoot.  But it's on auction currently at $5 and $9.95 shipping with 1 day left to go.  If it stays at that price and it tests well, that's a great deal for a Lansdale. If it doesn't test well, then that's $15 for a bunch of tubes that would likely be worthless.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-lot-L...489282?hash=item595a626d42:g:9CIAAOSwH2Zfil0H


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I’ll let you know when I land one. I wonder how the Zenith 6J5Gs (Mine are made by Sylvania, the engraved base version is made by Raytheon) would compare to this Sylvania 7N7, they both have a wide soundstage.
> 
> Have you compared the tall 7n7 to a pair of Sylvania 7a4?



I havent - but @JKDJedi probably has.  I was just asking.  As I said - I had really taken a break from DV tube rolling after the 7N7s....(focus on rolling on another amp right now)  You guys are giving me the itch to start again trying the 6J5 -- but (un)/fortunately depending on how you want to look at it, I don't have an adapter yet, so I haven't taken a plunge into that territory myself.   But  yeah, i've heard great things about the 6J5 and its variants, in the same vane as providing a very high value to price ratio in many cases.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> True that on the needle in a haystack.  Here's one...a Lansdale labeled one to boot. But can't see the test readings on it, so it would be irresponsible to recommend it.  Crapshoot.  But it's on auction currently at $5 and $9.95 shipping with 1 day left to go.  If it stays at that price and it tests well, that's a great deal for a Lansdale. If it doesn't test well, then that's $15 for a bunch of tubes that would likely be worthless.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-lot-L...489282?hash=item595a626d42:g:9CIAAOSwH2Zfil0H



Yes exactly!  Lots like this. Well, the Sharpie Marker says "Ok" so it must be ok.  LOL.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Have you ever seen a gray/black glass version of the Frankie?  I dont know if such a tube exists.



I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe the true Frankies were all 1950's production. I have a couple tall bottle black glass 7N7's, but both have the rectangular/rounded end bottom mica (can't see the top mica in either) and neither one sounds as good as a Frankie.  Funny thing is the Hytron. Labeled on the box and tube as a 7F7, but it's actually a 7N7. LOL!


----------



## therremans (Oct 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> And your sonic description of the L63's parallels mine pretty closely. Not my go-to tube(s) for rock or metal, but for classical they are an absolute delight. They partner nicely with a Cetron 7236 and a Russian 6N13S (6AS7G), are pretty decent with the TS 5998, but not the best synergy with RCA or Sylvania 6AS7's or 6080's being a bit too warm and lacking ultimate bass impact with those tubes.


Good call on the classical. _Adagio for Strings Op. 11. _They become a bit more airy and life like. They really seem to shine with stringed instruments on the Tung-Sol 5998, detail wise. Sometimes a little shrill with my 7236. The 6080WA (favorite here) gave it all a more full bodied sound that was moving and nice. The winged-c again for that low end that can make even my HD6XX rumble.


----------



## therremans

Well my chifi 6j5 adapter just took a crap. Made loud pops in my left channel. Finally figured out what it was.. not the cable or tubes. Switched to a tube that doesn’t use the adapter and the problem went away. Hopefully it didn’t damage my headphones (or my ear) I’ll re-solder the pcb and have it as a spare?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Well my chifi 6j5 adapter just took a crap. Made loud pops in my left channel. Finally figured out what it was.. not the cable or tubes. Switched to a tube that doesn’t use the adapter and the problem went away. Hopefully it didn’t damage my headphones (or my ear) I’ll re-solder the pcb and have it as a spare?



Time for a Deyan adapter.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Time for a Deyan adapter.


Deyan... Deyan....we want Deyan... @Deyan


----------



## therremans (Oct 20, 2020)

Solder looked a little skimpy and thin on some of the contacts. So thin that they bubbled up and developed an air hole after reheating. Added flux and plenty of solder to each point that leads down to the pin wires. It’s back in business but I still don’t trust it much, haha or my left ear doesn’t anyway.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 20, 2020)

therremans said:


> Solder looked a little skimpy and thin on some of the contacts. So thin that they bubbled up and developed an air hole after reheating. Added flux and plenty of solder to each point that leads down to the pin wires. It’s back in business but I still don’t trust it much, haha or my left ear doesn’t anyway.


Nevermind.   Nothing to see here.   As you were.  😒


----------



## therremans

yeah a hand wired adapter would be great. No more PCB.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe the true Frankies were all 1950's production. I have a couple tall bottle black glass 7N7's, but both have the rectangular/rounded end bottom mica (can't see the top mica in either) and neither one sounds as good as a Frankie.  Funny thing is the Hytron. Labeled on the box and tube as a 7F7, but it's actually a 7N7. LOL!



That rectangular/rounded end mica is surely a Sylvania trademark.  I agree with you that true Frankies are all 1950's production (where Philco bought the Lansdale NU plant just a year or two prior).  I'm guessing Frankie's in general orginated from this plant.   What I'm wondering, is...do you think there are there any National Union Frankie's pre 1948?  I rarely see any National Union 7N7s and harder in that what pictures there are, do not show the mica clearly.  Or I don't know if Philco was the one who originated this spec.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Oct 21, 2020)

Just came in a few minutes ago. Svetlana 6AS7GA, Psvane UK-6SN7 & Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB.
Too bad my 600 ohm Beyers crapped out yesterday. Only have the HD660 to test with for now.


----------



## Katholm

Deceneu808 said:


> Just came in a few minutes ago. Svetlana 6AS7GA, Psvane UK-6SN7 & Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB.
> Too bad my 600 ohm Beyers crapped out yesterday. Only have the HD660 to test with for now.



looks great! the svetlana is new production?


----------



## Deceneu808

Katholm said:


> looks great! the svetlana is new production?


Yes new production


----------



## bcowen (Oct 21, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> That rectangular/rounded end mica is surely a Sylvania trademark.  I agree with you that true Frankies are all 1950's production (where Philco bought the Lansdale NU plant just a year or two prior).  I'm guessing Frankie's in general orginated from this plant.   What I'm wondering, is...do you think there are there any National Union Frankie's pre 1948?  I rarely see any National Union 7N7s and harder in that what pictures there are, do not show the mica clearly.  Or I don't know if Philco was the one who originated this spec.



I've done a good bit of reading on these 7N7's, and as usual with most tube "history" there's a lot of conflicting information and a lot of info that would appear to be more opinion than verifiable fact.  But from what I've been able to piece together with at least some confidence is that Sylvania and National Union were the only two manufacturers that ever made this tube type.  Lansdale as best I can tell never manufactured receiving tubes (although they may have manufactured some other tube types), but rather just tested and graded them, and those that met certain parameters were given the military designation (CBRZ for Lansdale). I've yet to see a Lansdale labeled 7N7 that *didn't* have the CBRZ designation. I have assumed on my own that Sylvania was the manufacturer of the Frankie, mostly because the internal construction including the mica shape is perfectly identical to 50's manufactured metal-base 6SN7W's that were specific to Sylvania (only difference is the loctal versus octal base).  It's entirely possible that NU made a Frankie of either 40's or 50's vintage. It's also possible that Sylvania made 7N7's for NU on an OEM basis (_*and*_ vice versa) as such things happened on a regular basis back then. 

*The Baskin Robbins of 7N7's.  All true Frankies, including one Sylvania labeled and one that is NU labeled:*





*Fully oval micas. Top micas are fully oval too, just hard to see without a flashlight and even harder to photograph:*




*"Squared-Off" top shape of the bottle (thus the Frankenstein moniker, LOL) and also a hallmark of the metal-base Sylvania 6SN7W versus the more rounded shape of a non-Frankie tall bottle 7N7. Stands out more with the tube in-hand than what I can get a picture of:*




*Rounded-rectangle mica shape of a non-Franken tall bottle:*




*Closer-up view of the fully oval (racetrack) mica of a genuine Frankie:


*


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I've done a good bit of reading on these 7N7's, and as usual with most tube "history" there's a lot of conflicting information and a lot of info that would appear to be more opinion than verifiable fact.  But from what I've been able to piece together with at least some confidence is that Sylvania and National Union were the only two manufacturers that ever made this tube type.  Lansdale as best I can tell never manufactured receiving tubes (although they may have manufactured some other tube types), but rather just tested and graded them, and those that met certain parameters were given the military designation (CBRZ for Lansdale). I've yet to see a Lansdale labeled 7N7 that *didn't* have the CBRZ designation. I have assumed on my own that Sylvania was the manufacturer of the Frankie, mostly because the internal construction including the mica shape is perfectly identical to 50's manufactured metal-base 6SN7W's that were specific to Sylvania (only difference is the loctal versus octal base).  It's entirely possible that NU made a Frankie of either 40's or 50's vintage. It's also possible that Sylvania made 7N7's for NU on an OEM basis (_*and*_ vice versa) as such things happened on a regular basis back then.
> 
> *The Baskin Robbins of 7N7's.  All true Frankies, including one Sylvania labeled and one that is NU labeled:*



@bcowen thank you for this information.   I would have never suspected Sylvania to be the design originator not having seen a metal base 6SN7W up close, but it does make sense.  Up to now, i've only ever seen actual Sylvania branded (regular) 7N7s to only have the rectangular/rounded edges mica, and assumed if it wasn't Sylvania, it had to have been NU / Philco coupled with the fact that in the wild, it is predominately Philco branded Frankies I see with some Lansdale CBRZ mixed in.  Really appreciate your info and thoughts on this.  Yeah, i'm completely fascinated by this tube and its history.  Thanks!


----------



## Deceneu808 (Oct 21, 2020)

Just popped in the Svetlana 6AS7GA and the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. A little hum on the left channel but as I understand it needs some hours to burn in but damn it sounds heavenly already. I mean really big difference from the stock tubes. The low end, the warmth & the details. Speechless... I haven't tried the Psvane UK-6SN7 yet !

Edit : Popped in the Psvane. Hum moved to the right side, every other aspect remained the same. Can't really tell a difference just yet between Psvane and Tung-Sol. They both are miles better than the stock tube. Maybe the Svetlana power tube did all the magic as far as I know lol. Still new to tube rolling

Edit 2 : Ok so after swapping the tubes a few times I can tell there is a slight difference between the Tung-Sol and the Psvane. Tung-Sol has that vintage sound, really warm with fantastic low end, excellent midrange, soundstage is really far away and then as far as highs go, good details. The Psvane on the other hand has like 10% less low-end but still has that warmth to it, midrange is a little up front, soundstage wise everything sounds closer somehow and the highs, detail detail.

These are just my first impressions listening for about one hour on each tube. They still need burn in. I will post a small review after about 2-3 weeks and see what changes


----------



## JKDJedi

is out and about ... see how she plays today.. been awhile.


Slade01 said:


> @bcowen thank you for this information.   I would have never suspected Sylvania to be the design originator not having seen a metal base 6SN7W up close, but it does make sense.  Up to now, i've only ever seen actual Sylvania branded (regular) 7N7s to only have the rectangular/rounded edges mica, and assumed if it wasn't Sylvania, it had to have been NU / Philco coupled with the fact that in the wild, it is predominately Philco branded Frankies I see with some Lansdale CBRZ mixed in.  Really appreciate your info and thoughts on this.  Yeah, i'm completely fascinated by this tube and its history.  Thanks!


You wonder if there's a Sylvania 6SN7W in there sometimes. If you get a really strong Frankie..it's a powerhouse. But.I suspect as rumored with the metal based Sylvania 6SN7W, they don't sound so great after some use. They sound good..but not GREAT. I have half of what @bcowen has and they don't all sound the same, some have nicer highs, some are more rounded. Might be a manufacturing date thing too. HArd to tell without the boxes. No date codes on these guys.


----------



## therremans

Darkvoice 336SE - this guy provides some useful measurements.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Darkvoice 336SE - this guy provides some useful measurements.


He didn't like the Darkvoice, so he's basically a jerk in my book


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> Darkvoice 336SE - this guy provides some useful measurements.



I won't get into it here but that "cult's" site's review of the DV made me quit looking at his BS (where measurements are be all end all).  _Edited - I agree with bcowens's next post as he elegantly stated, comes to a difference of opinions when it comes to tube amps, and any other horribly measuring audio gear that sounds freaking fantastic. _


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> He didn't like the Darkvoice, so he's basically a jerk in my book



I don't take any issue with his measurements -- I don't think he falsified them (or at least hope he didn't). But as far as his opinions?  These 2 posts from that same thread say it all. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion of course, just that mine are the polar opposite of his.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> _...when it comes to tube amps, and any other horribly measuring audio gear that sounds freaking fantastic. _



Don't know if any of you follow the Schiit Happened thread, but several months ago they (Schiit themselves) did a blind shoot out between their solid state Magni amp with discrete components, their Magni amp that is op-amp based, and the Vali 2, their least expensive tube hybrid amp.  People's preferences varied of course, but nobody ever mentioned the Vali 2 sounding bad despite the fact that it has over 1000 times the harmonic distortion of either of the two solid state amps. To be fair, both solid state amps measure so low in distortion it's almost not even measurable, and the Vali 2 has very low distortion period (and even more so for a tube amp).  But if measurements tell all (which of course they don't), it seems the Vali 2 would have been universally panned and immediately kicked to the curb...


----------



## therremans (Oct 21, 2020)

Can anyone confirm that I have these marked correctly?

edit: I’ll go with it as I see other red (right) and yellow (left) markings


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Can anyone confirm that I have these marked correctly?


Oh snaps .. you went down that hole....eeeee did you beat out @bcowen 😝


----------



## JKDJedi

CBRZ and the rare Full Metal Jacket Bendix 😁


----------



## therremans (Oct 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> CBRZ and the rare Full Metal Jacket Bendix 😁


I bet that’s a great combo. How does the graphite plates compare to the 6080wa?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I bet that’s a great combo. How does the graphite plates compare to the 6080wa?


No not this one, rare metal plated Bendix (has the ceramic micas and support rods, fully enclosed metal plates instead of the graphite). Supposedly rare.. I haven't seen much of these around. The graphite plated ones are worlds better, I lost a lot of respect from members here when I said this one was close..


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Can anyone confirm that I have these marked correctly?
> 
> edit: I’ll go with it as I see other red (right) and yellow (left) markings




No, sorry...I haven't pulled my pot out yet.  I *do* hope you're doing a detailed, step-by-step video on this that you will generously and freely share with the rest of us...you know, for the good of the community, love of your fellow audio addicts, etc etc (oh, and because @JKDJedi will need it).


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> No, sorry...I haven't pulled my pot out yet.  I *do* hope you're doing a detailed, step-by-step video on this that you will generously and freely share with the rest of us...you know, for the good of the community, love of your fellow audio addicts, etc etc (oh, and because @JKDJedi will need it).


I am an total amateur but once I get it back together I’ll try to provide some photos + tips to help break it down in steps. I’m trying to shunt it with resistors. I had to make an order and will try for assembly this weekend. Then I should have a good idea what resistors work with this 100k pot, aiming for a slight db loss and ideally a more full sweep.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I am an total amateur but once I get it back together I’ll try to provide some photos + tips to help break it down in steps. I’m trying to shunt it with resistors. I had to make an order and will try for assembly this weekend. Then I should have a good idea what resistors work with this 100k pot, aiming for a slight db loss and ideally a more full sweep.


Take notes @bcowen 🙂


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I am an total amateur but once I get it back together I’ll try to provide some photos + tips to help break it down in steps. I’m trying to shunt it with resistors. I had to make an order and will try for assembly this weekend. Then I should have a good idea what resistors work with this 100k pot, aiming for a slight db loss and ideally a more full sweep.



I was able to get the existing (100k) volume pot in a nice spot (11:00 - 12:00) with a 22k and 4.7k on the input as a voltage divider.  It's pretty extreme (IMO) as that combo drops the input voltage from 2.0v down to .352v, and I haven't experimented with other values yet to maybe drop down a little less to around .5 volts instead. Cutting it to 1.0v did almost nothing getting the volume pot into a reasonable rotation area, so I'm thinking .5v is about as high as it can go.  But I have a big pile of resistors sitting on my desk with lots of combinations left to play with...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Take notes @bcowen 🙂



I am.  Trust me.


----------



## therremans (Oct 22, 2020)

Going by this to help me figure out what resistors to use. However, I’m not fully confident it will turn out yet. I could just bypass the shunt and wire it normally.


----------



## bcowen

This is being very nice.  The PSVane CV181T Mk 2 lets the awesome bass of the TS 5998 shine through, and injects a nice bit of tube goodness in the mids without overdoing it. The Darkvoice is currently in pieces, so I'm spoiling myself in the interim.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Going by this to help me figure out what resistors to use. However, I’m not fully confident it will turn out yet. I could just bypass the shunt and wire it normally.



Interesting.  Thanks!  You're going to a 20k pot?


----------



## bcowen

Tonight it's triple-T time: the Tussle of the Tittie Tubes.     Which will reign supreme?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  Thanks!  You're going to a 20k pot?


No I had previously purchased two 100k alps.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Tonight it's triple-T time: the Tussle of the Tittie Tubes.     Which will reign supreme?


I played this bet before. (But I won’t influence your decision yet.)


----------



## therremans

Speaking of 7193. I felt the 7a4 were very similar. Both of these little guys are fast and detailed, offering a good soundstage and great value. I preferred my 7193 to my Sylvania 7A4s. 7A4s were a little more warm sounding but not as clean. Both the 7193 and 7a4 although sound good, are a little anemic. I compared both with the 6080WA. I will do more comparisons later.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> No I had previously purchased two 100k alps.



I see.  I thought the 20KAX2 denoted a 20k pot, where 100KAX2 denoted a 100k pot.  That's what I get for assuming.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I see.  I thought the 20KAX2 denoted a 20k pot, where 100KAX2 denoted a 100k pot.  That's what I get for assuming.


----------



## therremans (Oct 22, 2020)

The hole will need stepped out about 4mm (9mm -> 13mm)


----------



## Brubacca

Just ordered my Darkvoice 336se from Drop.  Will pair it with my Hd6xx. From a quick search on this thread I ordered a SED Winged C 6H13C and a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. 

Hopefully I did good. Drop has them for $200 right now.


----------



## therremans

Brubacca said:


> Just ordered my Darkvoice 336se from Drop.  Will pair it with my Hd6xx. From a quick search on this thread I ordered a SED Winged C 6H13C and a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.
> 
> Hopefully I did good. Drop has them for $200 right now.


Nice, should be a great swap for the tubes.

Has anyone compared the Gray RCA 6F8G  to the Gray RCA VT-231? I almost got a pair last night but forgot to bid but am curious about the sound. I haven’t heard the RCA VT-231 but I have owned the Gray National Union 6sn7.


----------



## JKDJedi

Brubacca said:


> Just ordered my Darkvoice 336se from Drop.  Will pair it with my Hd6xx. From a quick search on this thread I ordered a SED Winged C 6H13C and a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.
> 
> Hopefully I did good. Drop has them for $200 right now.


Those were my exact first tubes for the Darkvoice. Congrats. 👍


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Nice, should be a great swap for the tubes.
> 
> Has anyone compared the Gray RCA 6F8G  to the Gray RCA VT-231? I almost got a pair last night but forgot to bid but am curious about the sound. I haven’t heard the RCA VT-231 but I have owned the Gray National Union 6sn7.


National Union is better for my tastes, I couldn't tell a difference between the RCAVT231 between the few others I had. Probably should've kept it for keeps sake. 😒
The grey RCA 6F8G is way up there.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Nice, should be a great swap for the tubes.
> 
> Has anyone compared the Gray RCA 6F8G  to the Gray RCA VT-231? I almost got a pair last night but forgot to bid but am curious about the sound. I haven’t heard the RCA VT-231 but I have owned the Gray National Union 6sn7.



My opinion is that the RCA 6F8G Gray Glass has just a little more heft/punch to it, and wider soundstage compared to the regular RCA Gray Glass (6SN7/VT-231).


----------



## Deceneu808

Off topic question. What headphones are you guys using with the Darkvoice. I have a pair of HD660s and a new pair of DT 880 600 coming next week. I'm tempted to grab a pair of either HD6xx or HD600. Will there be a big enough difference on the DV against my HD660s ? Does it make sense to own another 6 series Sennheiser ? What are your thoughts ?


----------



## sennfan83261

Deceneu808 said:


> Off topic question. What headphones are you guys using with the Darkvoice. I have a pair of HD660s and a new pair of DT 880 600 coming next week. I'm tempted to grab a pair of either HD6xx or HD600. Will there be a big enough difference on the DV against my HD660s ? Does it make sense to own another 6 series Sennheiser ? What are your thoughts ?


With an impedance of 150ohms, I feel that the HD660S is not an ideal pairing with the Darkvoice. I had a 150ohms headphone (HD58X) and still have a 120ohms AKG K501. Neither of them responded as well to the Darkvoice as my HD6XX (300ohms). I think the Darkvoice pairs better with 300ohms+ headphones from my experience.


----------



## Deceneu808

sennfan83261 said:


> With an impedance of 150ohms, I feel that the HD660S is not an ideal pairing with the Darkvoice. I had a 150ohms headphone (HD58X) and still have a 120ohms AKG K501. Neither of them responded as well to the Darkvoice as my HD6XX (300ohms). I think the Darkvoice pairs better with 300ohms+ headphones from my experience.



While not ideal I still enjoy the HD660s on the DV. After swapping tubes I can tell a difference in sound coming from a solid state Zen Dac. I'm confused about buying a pair of 300Ohm Senns or not


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2020)

Deceneu808 said:


> Off topic question. What headphones are you guys using with the Darkvoice. I have a pair of HD660s and a new pair of DT 880 600 coming next week. I'm tempted to grab a pair of either HD6xx or HD600. Will there be a big enough difference on the DV against my HD660s ? Does it make sense to own another 6 series Sennheiser ? What are your thoughts ?


I'm a HUGE HD6XX fan boy and my opinion is based on that... get a HD6XX, the 660 is only 150ohms (which should be good enough but...) the 650 is 300ohms (I've read the sweet spot for the Darkvoice is 280 ohms) HD6XX is only 20 away from that. the DT880 will be sweet on this amp as well. And who has too many headphones here?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 23, 2020)

Deceneu808 said:


> While not ideal I still enjoy the HD660s on the DV. After swapping tubes I can tell a difference in sound coming from a solid state Zen Dac. I'm confused about buying a pair of 300Ohm Senns or not


Like @JKDJedi said, the HD6XX/650 is more of an ideal pairing. Still, if you're happy with the HD660S driven by the Darkvoice, then peace be unto you. 

If you still want to use an OTL with the HD660S, then maybe you look at the La Figaro 339i. This is an OTL for lower impedance cans.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> Like @JKDJedi said, the HD6XX/650 is more of an ideal pairing.



Yes! This.  As far as I am concerned, these 2 (HD6XX  and the DV are perfect for each other).  The 6XX has that magic with the DV, that is not easily heard in many other amps.  (i don't know about the zen can amp signature 6xx that drop has out now though, but ifi is usually really on point with their stuff as well. )


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And who has too many headphones here?



You.

Hoarder.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> With an impedance of 150ohms, I feel that the HD660S is not an ideal pairing with the Darkvoice. I had a 150ohms headphone (HD58X) and still have a 120ohms AKG K501. Neither of them responded as well to the Darkvoice as my HD6XX (300ohms). I think the Darkvoice pairs better with 300ohms+ headphones from my experience.



I haven't tried any other 'phones with the DV, but I'm very pleased with the HD6XX pairing.  Looking at the ASR measurements that @therremans linked a few posts back, the DV's output power drops very quickly as the HP's impedance goes down (as is the case with most OTL's), so the higher impedance the better.


----------



## Deceneu808

sennfan83261 said:


> Like @JKDJedi said, the HD6XX/650 is more of an ideal pairing. Still, if you're happy with the HD660S driven by the Darkvoice, then peace be unto you.
> 
> If you still want to use an OTL with the HD660S, then maybe you look at the La Figaro 339i. This is an OTL for lower impedance cans.



I'm pretty satisfied so far. I'll grab a pair of either HD6xx or HD600 in the near future before I buy another amp lmao


----------



## JKDJedi

Morning Coffee Roll... *NU 6SN7GT & Sylvania 7236
*


----------



## therremans (Oct 25, 2020)

Not cheap but not crazy for anyone wanting one of these.. Tung Sol 5998 NOS $99 + shipping

Edit: wanted to add that it looks like it  has top and side getters


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Not cheap but not crazy for anyone wanting one of these.. Tung Sol 5998 NOS $99 + shipping
> 
> Edit: wanted to add that it looks like it  has top and side getters


That's a dam good price for that tube, seen one listed for $174 red labeled top bottom getter the same.. someone here should grab that baby.


----------



## therremans

My 5998 is unbranded. It has a single top D getter, (clear bottom)


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> My 5998 is unbranded. It has a single top D getter, (clear bottom)


these tubes just breath life into anything in front of it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That's a dam good price for that tube, seen one listed for $174 red labeled top bottom getter the same.. someone here should grab that baby.



Someone did. Probably you.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Someone did. Probably you.


No wasn't me... I'm on restrictions till January 😑 #happywifehappylife time to start rolling everything I have stashed away like them chipmunks do acorns...
🙄


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No wasn't me... I'm on restrictions till January



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!   And I just looked out the window and saw some pigs flyin' by...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!   And I just looked out the window and saw some pigs flyin' by...


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Deceneu808

Can anybody help me find a good power tube here in Europe ? The only one that I found locally and also bought is a Svetlana 6AS7GA. I can not find any 5998s or 6080s in Europe.


----------



## Katholm

Order fro


Deceneu808 said:


> Can anybody help me find a good power tube here in Europe ? The only one that I found locally and also bought is a Svetlana 6AS7GA. I can not find any 5998s or 6080s in Europe.


There is winged c 6h13c on ebay, try getting from the 60's, most are fron the 70's. Good tube and cheap, a pair is like 25$. They are russian, but many ukraine sellers too.


----------



## therremans

Katholm said:


> Order fro
> 
> There is winged c 6h13c on ebay, try getting from the 60's, most are fron the 70's. Good tube and cheap, a pair is like 25$. They are russian, but many ukraine sellers too.


Yeah, I love mine, it’s from 12-1984


----------



## therremans (Oct 26, 2020)

*ALPS Blue RK27 install *_(normal wiring, knurled shaft for use with factory knob)
Note: Mine has the LED bias installed and pre-amp output d/c._



 



You can actually do this without dissembling much. I am no expert and went at this with fresh eyes, perhaps you will find easier ways but this is pretty straight forward. Thank you to whoever made the above diagram and photo.

Unscrew the bottom plate and pull off the volume knob. Note: All of the face plate and other plate screws can remain screwed in.
Unsolder the input/output/ground wires from the factory PCB, everything but the pot pins. You can leave the pot attached to the PCB, the ALPS will not fit on it as the pin gap sizes are different.
Pull out the wires connecting to the PCB, tuck them and or clip them aside.
Unscrew the 11mm nut on the stock pot, pull out the pot and pcb, set aside.
Step out hole to 13mm, step out guide pin hole to 3mm. Note: guide pin hole must be drilled inward to accommodate the ALPS pin (or just grind down the ALPS guide pin until it fits)
Locate or ream out a 14-15mm outer diameter washer so that will fit around the 13mm raised shaft guide.
Now wire up and solder the pot using pcb prototyping board or whatever method you want.
Install it to the face plate. Check that your solder and wires held and everything is hold in good.
*The Good:*

I could install this mod without taking anything else apart.
This pot sweeps from Noon to 10 o'clock.
The volume sweeps very nicely and is usually max listening level between 5 and 8 o'clock depending on the source.
The sound has changed, more than I had anticipated. More of that "VEIL" lifted. Yeah, it's noticeably cleaner! I noticed that low-end notes come through with much more force than before.
Channel separation across all of the sweep is better.
*The Bad:*

You may need to mod the front plate for fitment. This was not a simple drop in install on my Darkvoice.
I notice more gain issues with the 6C8G tube (almost expected/deserved). It does NOT work with the Tung Sol 5998 even more now but does still work with several other power tubes. However it may distort at very heavy bass drops with the Svetlana at loud volumes. I will see if this changes with the new lower resistance shunted pot.
I plan on using an ALPS blue RK27 10k, 20k or 50k next and shunting it to decrease the overall noise floor. It is on the way. Along with replacing all of my wiring in order to clean things up a bit. I will run new wire from the RCA inputs and apply a couple bleed resistors at the RCA inputs that someone said is a good idea.

Note on the fitment, I had to enlarge the current potentiometer hole to 13mm, from 9mm. The guide pin on the pot that prevents it from spinning is larger than the one drilled into the face plate for the stock pot. I drilled mine out to 3mm, from 2mm. You may just shave the pin down some, whatever is easier for you. The pin hole faces up and below the shaft hole on the face plate. When you install the ALPS pot, the 6 in/out/ground pins will be facing towards the side, aimed at the power switch and not upward facing like the original. I did not have the clearance to re-drill new guide pin holes on the left and right side of the shaft hole for the ALPS pot so I just turned it sideways. The front piece of metal that the pot attaches too is thin. So thin that the 13mm shaft guide (raised edge around the shaft that ensures a good fit) sticks out the front side. This is bad because as you tighten up the pot, the washer hits this raised edge and prevents the washer and nut from pulling the pot taunt against the front plate. I solved this by making a 1mm thin washer that is 13mm in the center and 14mm on the outer, filling in this negative space to come in direct contact with the washer + nut. It now fits flush, is grounded well and tightens up nicely as it should with zero wiggle.

Update coming soon with photos of the new shunted pot install. Probably this weekend.


(borrowed from  blairfrischx)


----------



## sennfan83261 (Oct 26, 2020)

therremans said:


> *ALPS Blue RK27 100k installation *_(normal wiring, knurled shaft for use with factory knob)
> Note: Mine has the LED bias installed and pre-amp output removed._


Wow, excellent guide!  Definitely bookmarking this as a reference. I'm looking forward to reading about your experiments and experiences with the other lower resistance pots.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *ALPS Blue RK27 install *_(normal wiring, knurled shaft for use with factory knob)
> Note: Mine has the LED bias installed and pre-amp output d/c._
> 
> 
> ...



You've outdone yourself...this is awesome. Thanks!  

One question: appears that you're close to the middle of the pot's rotation for most listening? Did you add any shunts at this point, or is that only with the straight-up swap of the stock pot with the 100k Alps?  Ooops...guess that's 2 questions.


----------



## therremans (Oct 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You've outdone yourself...this is awesome. Thanks!
> 
> One question: appears that you're close to the middle of the pot's rotation for most listening? Did you add any shunts at this point, or is that only with the straight-up swap of the stock pot with the 100k Alps?  Ooops...guess that's 2 questions.


Normal wiring, no shunts used. Straight up 100k Alps. It started as a few sentences and I’d get back when I installed the other pot but I kept typing.

Really enjoying the GEC L63s today paired with the 5998.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "Deceneu808, postagem: 15939113, membro: 537856"]
Alguém pode me ajudar a encontrar um bom tubo de força aqui na Europa? O único que encontrei localmente e também comprei é um Svetlana 6AS7GA. Não consigo encontrar 5998s ou 6080s na Europa.
[/CITAR]

Mullard 6080.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-CV298...030120?hash=item48d8ce1668:g:urAAAOSwcV5d6OQ5


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "Deceneu808, postagem: 15939113, membro: 537856"]
> Alguém pode me ajudar a encontrar um bom tubo de força aqui na Europa? O único que encontrei localmente e também comprei é um Svetlana 6AS7GA. Não consigo encontrar 5998s ou 6080s na Europa.
> [/CITAR]
> 
> ...


That is a steal!! WHats up @SHIMACM !! long time no see..you back home?


----------



## SHIMACM

Of the driver tubes with adapters already tested by you, could you build a ranking of the three best?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> That is a steal!! WHats up @SHIMACM !! long time no see..you back home?



I have a broken arm, so I'm not interacting much. My daughter who is typing for me.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> That is a steal!! WHats up @SHIMACM !! long time no see..you back home?



But yes, I'm already home, but not in the way I wanted. Pandemic + broken arm. lol


----------



## therremans

Is this the real deal 7n7 frankentube? I bought it for $3.00, since one side gives a strong reading and the other is giving nothing. Seller says they haven’t tried any methods to restore circuitry. I’m going to try to bring this one back from the dead.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Is this the real deal 7n7 frankentube? I bought it for $3.00, since one side gives a strong reading and the other is giving nothing. Seller says they haven’t tried any methods to restore circuitry. I’m going to try to bring this one back from the dead.



That's the real deal. Interested to see if you can make it work. Easy to resolder pins on an octal base...not the same story obviously with a loctal.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Is this the real deal 7n7 frankentube? I bought it for $3.00, since one side gives a strong reading and the other is giving nothing. Seller says they haven’t tried any methods to restore circuitry. I’m going to try to bring this one back from the dead.



Wouldnt that be something if it was a matter of just cleaning/resoldering the pins?  Will have been the best 3 bucks spent...


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Is this the real deal 7n7 frankentube? I bought it for $3.00, since one side gives a strong reading and the other is giving nothing. Seller says they haven’t tried any methods to restore circuitry. I’m going to try to bring this one back from the dead.





bcowen said:


> That's the real deal. Interested to see if you can make it work. Easy to resolder pins on an octal base...not the same story obviously with a loctal.





Slade01 said:


> Wouldnt that be something if it was a matter of just cleaning/resoldering the pins?  Will have been the best 3 bucks spent...


Detoxit


----------



## therremans

Yes, I’ll do the typical cleaning I give all tubes. Scrub contacts with alcohol to remove grime and oils. Then apply DeoxIT red followed by DeoxIT gold. If that doesn’t work, I’ll then apply some heat on each pin.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes, I’ll do the typical cleaning I give all tubes. Scrub contacts with alcohol to remove grime and oils. Then apply DeoxIT red followed by DeoxIT gold. If that doesn’t work, I’ll then apply some heat on each pin.


No heat needed, these are not soldered.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> No heat needed, these are not soldered.


“The pins are actually the Fernicoor Cunife lead-out wires from the tube, they are prone to intermittent connections caused by the build-up of electrolytic corrosion products due to the pin being of a different metallic composition to the socket contact.

The loctal tube's structure was supported directly by the connecting pins passing through the glass "button" base. Octal tube structures were supported on a glass "pinch", formed by heating the bottom of the envelope to fusing temperature, then squeezing the pinch closed. Sealing the pinch embedded the connecting wires in the pinch's glass and gave a vacuum-tight seal. The connecting wires then passed through the hollow base pins, where they were soldered to make permanent connections.”


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> That's the real deal. Interested to see if you can make it work. Easy to resolder pins on an octal base...not the same story obviously with a loctal.





JKDJedi said:


> No heat needed, these are not soldered.





therremans said:


> “The pins are actually the Fernicoor Cunife lead-out wires from the tube, they are prone to intermittent connections caused by the build-up of electrolytic corrosion products due to the pin being of a different metallic composition to the socket contact.
> The loctal tube's structure was supported directly by the connecting pins passing through the glass "button" base. Octal tube structures were supported on a glass "pinch", formed by heating the bottom of the envelope to fusing temperature, then squeezing the pinch closed. Sealing the pinch embedded the connecting wires in the pinch's glass and gave a vacuum-tight seal. The connecting wires then passed through the hollow base pins, where they were soldered to make permanent connections.”



Just read this and more about the loktal base and what a PITA/problematic it can be in maintenance situations.  Learning something new every day!    I guess you gotta remember to look at the tube as a whole, and not just the internals.... "It's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that *heavenly glory..."*


----------



## Deceneu808

This any good ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223967016649


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> “The pins are actually the Fernicoor Cunife lead-out wires from the tube, they are prone to intermittent connections caused by the build-up of electrolytic corrosion products due to the pin being of a different metallic composition to the socket contact.
> 
> The loctal tube's structure was supported directly by the connecting pins passing through the glass "button" base. Octal tube structures were supported on a glass "pinch", formed by heating the bottom of the envelope to fusing temperature, then squeezing the pinch closed. Sealing the pinch embedded the connecting wires in the pinch's glass and gave a vacuum-tight seal. The connecting wires then passed through the hollow base pins, where they were soldered to make permanent connections.”


Correct, Octal tubes soldered. Loctal tubes not soldered,


----------



## JKDJedi

get a Mullard


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


> This any good ?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/223967016649



I know you're in Europe -- but thats a bit overpriced for an RCA 6080 in my opinion.  You're better off with the Mullard that @SHIMACM suggested.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Just read this and more about the loktal base and what a PITA/problematic it can be in maintenance situations.  Learning something new every day!    I guess you gotta remember to look at the tube as a whole, and not just the internals.... "It's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that *heavenly glory..."*


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


>



Yes.  Done.  I'm in a zoom meeting at work at the moment so this is totally Easy-Peasy.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yes.  Done.  I'm in a zoom meeting at work at the moment so this is totally Easy-Peasy.


I don't know how many times I've watched that movie.. huge fan. Got to train with one of his students, Dan Inosanto.


----------



## Deceneu808

Slade01 said:


> I know you're in Europe -- but thats a bit overpriced for an RCA 6080 in my opinion.  You're better off with the Mullard that @SHIMACM suggested.



Ordered the Mullard


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Ordered the Mullard


ANIMAL!!


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


> Ordered the Mullard



It's a way better choice for 6080 tube.   A higher tier choice, and leagues better than any RCA 6080.   The RCA 6080 tends to be really lifeless, this is the best I can describe it.  It will make your amp function, but nothing else beyond that.   If you had to have an RCA power tube, the 6AS7G is the way you'd to go, it is the opposite of the 6080 in that its always dependable and will always complement any music with a nice warm tone.


----------



## Deceneu808

Slade01 said:


> It's a way better choice for 6080 tube.   A higher tier choice, and leagues better than any RCA 6080.   The RCA 6080 tends to be really lifeless, this is the best I can describe it.  It will make your amp function, but nothing else beyond that.   If you had to have an RCA power tube, the 6AS7G is the way you'd to go, it is the opposite of the 6080 in that its always dependable and will always complement any music with a nice warm tone.



Can I expect a difference between the Mullard and my Svetlana 6AS7GA ? This was my last budget for 2020. I was between a HD600 or a pair of speakers and a tube lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Can I expect a difference between the Mullard and my Svetlana 6AS7GA ? This was my last budget for 2020. I was between a HD600 or a pair of speakers and a tube lol


yes, perfect for the hd600, you'll like them.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> yes, perfect for the hd600, you'll like them.


Well that's the thing. I didn't get the HD600's. I got speakers and the tubes. Currently enjoying my HD660s and DT880 600


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Well that's the thing. I didn't get the HD600's. I got speakers and the tubes. Currently enjoying my HD660s and DT880 600


lol.. you'll like/enjoy them the same. I was tempted to grab them myself as I have the rebranded (Philips) version of them tubes and would love to have a Mullard labeled Mullard, I'll tell you what, you don't like em, send me a PM and I'll take them off your hands.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> lol.. you'll like/enjoy them the same. I was tempted to grab them myself as I have the rebranded (Philips) version of them tubes and would love to have a Mullard labeled Mullard, I'll tell you what, you don't like em, send me a PM and I'll take them off your hands.


Deal but I'm betting I'll be keeping these around for a while


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> lol.. you'll like/enjoy them the same. I was tempted to grab them myself as I have the rebranded (Philips) version of them tubes and would love to have a Mullard labeled Mullard, I'll tell you what, you don't like em, send me a PM and I'll take them off your hands.



@Deceneu808 I was also going to mention that - if you happen to not like the Mullard sound, you will probably have no problem reselling those tubes...


----------



## Deceneu808

Slade01 said:


> @Deceneu808 I was also going to mention that - if you happen to not like the Mullard sound, you will probably have no problem reselling those tubes...


They tend to have a warm sound right ? That's me


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


> Can I expect a difference between the Mullard and my Svetlana 6AS7GA ? This was my last budget for 2020. I was between a HD600 or a pair of speakers and a tube lol



Absolutely.  I also have the same Svetlana Winged C.  Where (in my opinion) The Svetlana is open, airy, bright, wider soundstage, the Mullard from what I remember, is warm, full, rich mids.   I do miss that tube, had to sell it off a while ago.  But @JKDJedi can speak better to this, having owned both currently.


----------



## Deceneu808

Slade01 said:


> Absolutely.  I also have the same Svetlana Winged C.  Where (in my opinion) The Svetlana is open, airy, bright, wider soundstage, the Mullard from what I remember, is warm, full, rich mids.   I do miss that tube, had to sell it off a while ago.  But @JKDJedi can speak better to this, having owned both currently.


Somebody needs to school me a bit since I'm new to tubes. What is the purpose of the little driver tube and the big power tube. Also what is a rectifier tube ? I currently own a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tube and a Psvane UK-6SN7. Let's hope they live a happy life with the Mullard lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Somebody needs to school me a bit since I'm new to tubes. What is the purpose of the little driver tube and the big power tube. Also what is a rectifier tube ? I currently own a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tube and a Psvane UK-6SN7. Let's hope they live a happy life with the Mullard lol


@bcowen ? Little help? 😁


----------



## therremans (Oct 27, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Absolutely.  I also have the same Svetlana Winged C.  Where (in my opinion) The Svetlana is open, airy, bright, wider soundstage, the Mullard from what I remember, is warm, full, rich mids.   I do miss that tube, had to sell it off a while ago.  But @JKDJedi can speak better to this, having owned both currently.


Also @JKDJedi, how does the Mullard 6080 compare to a Chatham 6080WA?

I wanted to add that the Chatham was a surprise for me and I go back to it often. It does have a nice full sound and I’m thinking mullard will be even fuller and warmer.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Somebody needs to school me a bit since I'm new to tubes. What is the purpose of the little driver tube and the big power tube. Also what is a rectifier tube ? I currently own a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tube and a Psvane UK-6SN7. Let's hope they live a happy life with the Mullard lol


I'll share the little that I know, the driver tube amplifies the weak input signal of the dac, not sure if the power tube elevates it some more.. or cleans it up a bit more..both? and the rectifier tube is used on amps that don't do the ac to dc conversion via the transformer like the Darkvoice does,  did I get it right @bcowen ?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 27, 2020)

therremans said:


> Also @JKDJedi, how does the Mullard 6080 compare to a Chatham 6080WA?
> 
> I wanted to add that the Chatham was a surprise for me and I go back to it often. It does have a nice full sound and I’m thinking mullard will be even fuller and warmer.


Not as warm as the Chatham, Chatham was touch n go for me at the beginning, on the right amp, it's amazing. Mullards are more rounded, warm even tone, not overly forward,laid back, same as Chatham, only Chatham is a very warm tube, some might nt like it on the DArkvoice.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Can I expect a difference between the Mullard and my Svetlana 6AS7GA ?



Yes. Big time.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 27, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'll share the little that I know, the driver tube amplifies the weak input signal of the dac, not sure if the power tube elevates it some more.. or cleans it up a bit more..both? and the rectifier tube is used on amps that don't do the ac to dc conversion via the transformer like the Darkvoice does,  did I get it right @bcowen ?



Well, kind of a little somewhat.    The Darkvoice is technically an integrated amp, in that it contains both the pre-amp and the power amp of a typical audio system. The driver tube (or 6SN7) is the preamp tube that takes the output of the DAC (or CD player, or tuner, or whatever) and increases the signal level to an appropriate level for the power tube (the 6AS7, 6080, 5998. etc).  In any audio system, you wouldn't connect a DAC directly to a (pure) power amp -- you'd use a preamplifier in between, which not only increases the signal level to the power amp, but also provides the volume control and switching ability for multiple inputs (again..DAC, CD player, tuner, phono stage, etc). The Darkvoice just performs both those functions in one box.

In an audio component, a rectifier converts AC to DC. The transformer doesn't do this -- the transformer only steps down (or up) the AC voltage coming in from the wall outlet. Before silicon devices were invented (diodes, transistors, etc) this rectification was always done by a tube (or tubes).  The Darkvoice, along with the majority of audio components today, use a (silicon) diode bridge to perform the rectification due mostly to the fact it's very cheap to implement, takes very little space, and is quite reliable. Some people (like me) still think tube rectification sounds better, and there are still products made today that use tube rectifiers, just that they tend to exist only in much higher priced components.

That help any?  Oversimplified to be sure, but hopefully gets the idea(s) across.


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Can I expect a difference between the Mullard and my Svetlana 6AS7GA ? This was my last budget for 2020. I was between a HD600 or a pair of speakers and a tube lol



I prefer the Mullard 6080 over the Tung-Sol 5998. I have both. Mullard is in a league well above the Svetlena that I also own. Even RCA 6as7g is better than Svetlana. Of course, this is just my humble opinion. After all my ears. Enjoy while the Mullard can be found at a reasonable price.


----------



## SHIMACM

SHIMACM said:


> Of the driver tubes with adapters already tested by you, could you build a ranking of the three best?



Nobody risks? With the dollar being 6 to 1 for the real, you can't buy several to try.


----------



## therremans

Trigger pulled.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Trigger pulled.



You will not regret! good bargain!


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Nobody risks? With the dollar being 6 to 1 for the real, you can't buy several to try.


On how much of a budget? So much depends on what you like. My top picks with adapters are the Zenith 6J5G, Tung-Sol 6F8G (or 6C8G depending on power tube), GEC L63 6J5G

The NU 7193s and the 7a4 sound nice, if you like a very analytical sound. They’re also cheap. Many bargains to be had.. 6C8Gs, Sylvania 6J5GT (black round plate) and Raytheon 6J5GT (black ladders) sound very nice for the money. Hope that helps.


----------



## SHIMACM

Looking at the Mullard you bought, it is a little different from mine. Yours is smooth on the bottom plate, while mine is toothed. I don't know if there will be a difference in the sound.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> On how much of a budget? So much depends on what you like. My top picks with adapters are the Zenith 6J5G, Tung-Sol 6F8G (or 6C8G depending on power tube), GEC L63 6J5G
> 
> The NU 7193s and the 7a4 sound nice, if you like a very analytical sound. They’re also cheap. Many bargains to be had.. 6C8Gs, Sylvania 6J5GT (black round plate) and Raytheon 6J5GT (black ladders) sound very nice for the money. Hope that helps.



I like the sound more focused on the hot and lush side. My first generation T1 needs this. More not in excess.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Looking at the Mullard you bought, it is a little different from mine. Yours is smooth on the bottom plate, while mine is toothed. I don't know if there will be a difference in the sound.


You got me curious now... I'm gonna like at mine right now soon as I get home (lunch time) 🙂


----------



## Katholm

Anyone have experience with the russian 6j5? They are named 6s2s


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> You got me curious now... I'm gonna like at mine right now soon as I get home (lunch time) 🙂



there are more differences at the top as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Looking at the Mullard you bought, it is a little different from mine. Yours is smooth on the bottom plate, while mine is toothed. I don't know if there will be a difference in the sound.


Wow, so yes my copy of the Mullard has the round mica at the bottom the same, could we have a pic of your Mullard? And what's the date stamp on it? Mine is AJ1 R1G ( whatever that means 😂)


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Wow, so yes my copy of the Mullard has the round mica at the bottom the same, could we have a pic of your Mullard? And what's the date stamp on it? Mine is AJ1 R1G ( whatever that means 😂)


I believe that means *R*1G means it was produced in their Mitcham factory.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I believe that means *R*1G means it was produced in their Mitcham factory.


both of ours look carbon copy, curious as to what Shimacm has..


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "JKDJedi, postagem: 15942116, membro: 467979"]
Uau, então sim minha cópia do Mullard tem a mica redonda na parte inferior do mesmo jeito, podemos ter uma foto do seu Mullard? E qual é o carimbo de data nele? O meu é AJ1 R1G (o que quer que isso signifique 😂)

[/CITAR]


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> both of ours look carbon copy, curious as to what Shimacm has..



Mine has the round mica at the bottom too.


----------



## bcowen

Katholm said:


> Anyone have experience with the russian 6j5? They are named 6s2s



Yup.  I like them (with the right partner for a power tube).


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Uau, então sim minha cópia do Mullard tem a mica redonda na parte inferior do mesmo jeito, podemos ter uma foto do seu Mullard? E qual é o carimbo de data nele? O meu é AJ1 R1G (o que quer que isso signifique 😂)



Easy for _you_ to say. 

Looks like yours has dual halo getters up top too...


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Mine has the round mica at the bottom too.



In addition to the toothed bottom mica, mine has two getters on the top. Not to mention that the getters are covered by a plate. He is a 6080 SA. Does that mean anything? I read somewhere that some 6080 Mullards could actually be GEC 6080. Does that happen?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I read somewhere that some 6080 Mullards could actually be GEC 6080. Does that happen?



I really don't know.  But as much rebranding / OEM'ing that went on with US-made tubes back then, it wouldn't be at all surprising if it went on with European manufacturers as well.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> I really don't know.  But as much rebranding / OEM'ing that went on with US-made tubes back then, it wouldn't be at all surprising if it went on with European manufacturers as well.








Look at the structure of this GEC.


----------



## SHIMACM

Better photos.


----------



## therremans

I have had my blue LED covered with black wire tape since about the first week I owned the Darkvoice. My amp is positioned on top of a studio monitor due to lack of space and the blue LED would shine right at my eyes.

Here I swapped it out with a spare dim red LED I had from doing the LED biasing mod..

After removal of PCB board:


Original LED:



After swap:


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Better photos.


That appears to be a collectors tube there, very nice.. dual getters and all the micas are matching..and wow..just the saw the GEC comparison...the plot thickens!! Is that tube you have a Gec or is that pictured GEC a Mullard !? o.O #firstworldproblems You might have to send that to me for further evaluation.


----------



## Katholm

bcowen said:


> Yup.  I like them (with the right partner for a power tube).


These look great, but they arent russian 6s2s, am i right?
With which power tube do you like to listen to them?
Thanks for the answer


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> That appears to be a collectors tube there, very nice.. dual getters and all the micas are matching..and wow..just the saw the GEC comparison...the plot thickens!! Is that tube you have a Gec or is that pictured GEC a Mullard !? o.O #firstworldproblems You might have to send that to me for further evaluation.



Ah if we lived at least in the same country. LOL. I wish I had another Mullard to compare.


----------



## bcowen

Katholm said:


> These look great, but they arent russian 6s2s, am i right?
> With which power tube do you like to listen to them?
> Thanks for the answer



The Pinnacles are definitely Russian as evidenced by the UFO getter, and as far as I know they are 6S2S's.  They sound quite nice with a warmer-balanced power tube like a Mullard 6080 or an RCA 6AS7GA.  A bit too aggressive with something like a Cetron 7236 for my tastes though.






Here's a pair of 6S2S on Ebay right now that look pretty much the same internally (from what I can see):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-X-Matche...078698?hash=item2af3cf592a:g:jecAAOSwM0dffgR9


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I have had my blue LED covered with black wire tape since about the first week I owned the Darkvoice. My amp is positioned on top of a studio monitor due to lack of space and the blue LED would shine right at my eyes.
> 
> Here I swapped it out with a spare dim red LED I had from doing the LED biasing mod..
> 
> ...



You are slowly but surely creating the Darkenstein.   I love it!!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> The Pinnacles are definitely Russian as evidenced by the UFO getter, and as far as I know they are 6S2S's.  They sound quite nice with a warmer-balanced power tube like a Mullard 6080 or an RCA 6AS7GA.  A bit too aggressive with something like a Cetron 7236 for my tastes though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are the MELZ1578 aggressive in sound as well?  I've rolled quite a few Russian drivers in other amps and always found them to have that edgy aggressive crunch in sound.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Are the MELZ1578 aggressive in sound as well?  I've rolled quite a few Russian drivers in other amps and always found them to have that edgy aggressive crunch in sound.



Not to my ears...at least after they've broken-in some. If they are truly new and previously unused, they can be a bit grating for the first 10-15 hours, but once they get upwards of 20 hours or so that edge goes away and they smooth out quite a bit.  Same with the Fotons.  Once the Fotons get some hours on them, they are probably one of the_ least _fatiguing and/or edgy tubes in my stash...even played at stupid loud volumes they never bother my ears.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Not to my ears...at least after they've broken-in some. If they are truly new and previously unused, they can be a bit grating for the first 10-15 hours, but once they get upwards of 20 hours or so that edge goes away and they smooth out quite a bit.  Same with the Fotons.  Once the Fotons get some hours on them, they are probably one of the_ least _fatiguing and/or edgy tubes in my stash...even played at stupid loud volumes they never bother my ears.


I cuncor, the shock and awe goes and your left with a smooth delivery. Glad I gave that last one a 25th chance..😝 56' Foton.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Not to my ears...at least after they've broken-in some. If they are truly new and previously unused, they can be a bit grating for the first 10-15 hours, but once they get upwards of 20 hours or so that edge goes away and they smooth out quite a bit.  Same with the Fotons.  Once the Fotons get some hours on them, they are probably one of the_ least _fatiguing and/or edgy tubes in my stash...even played at stupid loud volumes they never bother my ears.





JKDJedi said:


> I cuncor, the shock and awe goes and your left with a smooth delivery. Glad I gave that last one a 25th chance..😝 56' Foton.



Thanks for bringing me back down to earth with those impressions.  My only experience with russian drivers are with the Voskhod Rockets and Reflektors and yeah, some of them were very edgy, very detailed, punchy sometimes pushing the envelope to fatigue...but loved them in rock/metal settings.   Good to know that Fotons and Melz are laid back.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Thanks for bringing me back down to earth with those impressions.  My only experience with russian drivers are with the Voskhod Rockets and Reflektors and yeah, some of them were very edgy, very detailed, punchy sometimes pushing the envelope to fatigue...but loved them in rock/metal settings.   Good to know that Fotons and Melz are laid back.



The '50's Fotons, anyway. I'm not a fan of the 60's forward with those.  There are good sounding 60's - 80's Melz, but I'm not experienced enough with them to know (beyond a few) which are the best picks.


----------



## JKDJedi

*Sylvania Gold Brand 6080.. *


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> *Sylvania Gold Brand 6080.. *


I didn't realize this had double getters...nice.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I didn't realize this had double getters...nice.



I prefer double D's.  Double O's may be more than I could handle at my age.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> I prefer double D's.  Double O's may be more than I could handle at my age.


I thought double halo getters meant that they were double the chastity.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> I thought double halo getters meant that they were double the chastity.



LOL!  Perhaps double halos are applicable to more saintly people -- around me they're strictly double O's (which I guess is better than double zeros).


----------



## Deceneu808

Burning in the Psvane UK-6SN7 this weekend


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Burning in the Psvane UK-6SN7 this weekend


Beautiful tube, very nice.


----------



## JKDJedi

Marconi 7AF7 (Related to the7N7 ?)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Marconi 7AF7 (Related to the7N7 ?)



It's a FrankenJr.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Marconi 7AF7 (Related to the7N7 ?)



Round Plates Magic!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 31, 2020)

_Peek A Boo_ .. .


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> _Peek A Boo_ .. .



My, what big, um, signal tubes you have there, grandma!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> Beautiful tube, very nice.


Very curious about the sound of these tubes. So I will lurk in the shadows, learning everyday...Bwaaahahaha


----------



## therremans (Nov 3, 2020)

*Shunted 50k ALPS*

I installed the 50k alps blue pot today and used two 47k resistors (see image) to create a shunted pot. What a difference it made in the noise floor! The background is dead silent at 0% until about 90% and 90% to 100%, I can then start to make out an audible background noise. I recommend the shunt for anyone who has or wants to install a new pot in their Darkvoice. It's an easy thing to do with some prototyping board. If the background noise does not bother you, then it's not really worth it. I can easily swap out to a different resistor if I needed to, but the 47k seems to do the job.




_(I didn't draw this diagram, thank you who did)_

Prototyping board I cut with a ground rail at the bottom:



Underside of the PCB:



All wired up:


Next week, i'm going to replace the stock RCA input jacks and delete the output all together, a higher quality power switch by Carling and a Switchcraft 1/4" jack. I will run new wire while i'm at it.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Shunted 50k ALPS*
> 
> I installed the 50k alps blue pot today and used two 47k resistors (see image) to create a shunted pot. What a difference it made in the noise floor! The background is dead silent at 0% until about 90% and 90% to 100%, I can then start to make out an audible background noise. I recommend the shunt for anyone who has or wants to install a new pot in their Darkvoice. It's an easy thing to do with some prototyping board. If the background noise does not bother you, then it's not really worth it. I can easily swap out to a different resistor if I needed to, but the 47k seems to do the job.
> 
> ...



GREAT info.  Thanks!  Two questions if you don't mind:

1) With this arrangement and the 50k pot, are you still (roughly) in the middle of the pot's rotation for most listening?
2) Is the 50k pot an audio taper or log taper?


----------



## therremans (Nov 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> GREAT info.  Thanks!  Two questions if you don't mind:
> 
> 1) With this arrangement and the 50k pot, are you still (roughly) in the middle of the pot's rotation for most listening?
> 2) Is the 50k pot an audio taper or log taper?


1) Yes, that hasn't changed much, although a slight db drop did occur due to the resistors.
The total sweep is like this:
*Zero = Noon
Max = 10:00*
I’m at max listening level with the 5998 at 5:00 to 6:00, 7as7/6080 at 8:00-9:00. Depending on the track. note: my setup always has a total db drop of 6.1 for safe headroom.
2) Taper, I used this one.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> 1) Yes, that hasn't changed much, although a slight db drop did occur.
> The total sweep is like this:
> *Zero = Noon
> Max = 10:00*
> ...



Excellent.  Thanks!


----------



## SHIMACM

Has anyone tried the GEC A2293 on Darkvoice?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Has anyone tried the GEC A2293 on Darkvoice?


I think that's the military stamp for the GEC 6AS7G, I've rolled the latter.


----------



## SHIMACM

I say this tube here, with adapters.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I say this tube here, with adapters.


Yes I did, didn't work out as I thought it would, and am not sure if these are drivers or power tubes, I tried using them as power tubes with a dual adapter from Deyan, didn't work out, only one channel worked. both tubes were good just that (it seems like) the power output on the Darkvoice doesn't like dual setups for some reason, that or these were driver tubes this whole time!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Yes I did, didn't work out as I thought it would, and am not sure if these are drivers or power tubes, I tried using them as power tubes with a dual adapter from Deyan, didn't work out, only one channel worked. both tubes were good just that (it seems like) the power output on the Darkvoice doesn't like dual setups for some reason, that or these were driver tubes this whole time!



@SHIMACM are you up next to give this a go?  Going to take the challenge?  It would be quite the bargain if this works.  There are adapters on ebay that advertise dual A2293 to 6AS7 for the darkvoice.  So someone is trying to market it as such.  I've been semi looking the 6AS7 rollers thread for impressions to some success, but not sure what amps they ran it on.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Yes I did, didn't work out as I thought it would, and am not sure if these are drivers or power tubes, I tried using them as power tubes with a dual adapter from Deyan, didn't work out, only one channel worked. both tubes were good just that (it seems like) the power output on the Darkvoice doesn't like dual setups for some reason, that or these were driver tubes this whole time!



With a plate dissipation of 15 watts, it's definitely a power tube.


----------



## therremans (Nov 3, 2020)

I’ve had the gecs and adapter in my saved for later cart for months. I remember reading impressions that it sounded like a decent 6as7g but nothing that impressive. But I’d like one of us to make the opinion of how they sound.

i don’t remember where I read people’s thoughts on them or what amps used. It was just some searching. Maybe it was even in the drop Darkvoice thread. (This guy is pleased with them)


----------



## Deceneu808 (Nov 4, 2020)

HD600s came today. I now understand...


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I’ve had the gecs and adapter in my saved for later cart for months. I remember reading impressions that it sounded like a decent 6as7g but nothing that impressive. But I’d like one of us to make the opinion of how they sound.
> 
> i don’t remember where I read people’s thoughts on them or what amps used. It was just some searching. Maybe it was even in the drop Darkvoice thread. (This guy is pleased with them)


Could've been the adapter that gave me problems, was really hoping it worked out, didn't want to push it any further with Deyan so just gave that project up. BUT .. if any of one here wants to take one for the team .... please do! I'm just as curious. 🙂


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Could've been the adapter that gave me problems, was really hoping it worked out, didn't want to push it any further with Deyan so just gave that project up. BUT .. if any of one here wants to take one for the team .... please do! I'm just as curious. 🙂



Was it an adapter Deyan made or chinese one?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Was it an adapter Deyan made or chinese one?


I take that back... Going through my archive photos....it was a chifi adapter I was using!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 3, 2020)

I also tried rolling dual 6BL7 tubes .. that too didn't work out.. 🤔 well hell... was it my Darkvoice this whole time!?

It rolled well with one 6BL7 at half the power output.  if you want a normal volume pot without  modding your Darkvoice..just use one 6BL7.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I also tried rolling dual 6BL7 tubes .. that too didn't work out.. 🤔 well hell... was it my Darkvoice this whole time!?
> 
> It rolled well with one 6BL7 at half the power output.  if you want a normal volume pot without  modding your Darkvoice..just use one 6BL7.



Your amp was just trying to tell you that you're putting too much GE into it.  One is one too many.  Two is like putting straight water into your car's gas tank.  LOL.

As far as the A2293.  Screw it, I might just give it a shot.  You know.  For the teeeeeeeeeam.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> @SHIMACM are you up next to give this a go?  Going to take the challenge?  It would be quite the bargain if this works.  There are adapters on ebay that advertise dual A2293 to 6AS7 for the darkvoice.  So someone is trying to market it as such.  I've been semi looking the 6AS7 rollers thread for impressions to some success, but not sure what amps they ran it on.



Since it didn't work on JKDJedi Darkvoice, I won't try.

There was a guy with an LF339 who liked it a lot.

It's a shame that Darkvoice refuses bargains.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> Since it didn't work on JKDJedi Darkvoice, I won't try.
> 
> There was a guy with an LF339 who liked it a lot.
> 
> It's a shame that Darkvoice refuses bargains.



Yeah right?  I just checked the A2293, and running dual should just be shy under the normal 6AS7 heater draw.  Should in theory work.  I'll give it a shot, because I am very interested as well in this very idea as well of running a dual adapter on the power side  Like you, I like the bargains as well!


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> Yeah right?  I just checked the A2293, and running dual should just be shy under the normal 6AS7 heater draw.  Should in theory work.  I'll give it a shot, because I am very interested as well in this very idea as well of running a dual adapter on the power side  Like you, I like the bargains as well!



If you can tell me, because the risk for me is high, since my country's currency is very devalued against the Euro, making the tube much more expensive for me.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I also tried rolling dual 6BL7 tubes .. that too didn't work out.. 🤔 well hell... was it my Darkvoice this whole time!?
> 
> It rolled well with one 6BL7 at half the power output.  if you want a normal volume pot without  modding your Darkvoice..just use one 6BL7.



That 6BL7 has the etched dots meaning it was truly made by GE.  I'm surprised your Darkvoice didn't blow up, or at least throw up.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Your amp was just trying to tell you that you're putting too much GE into it.  One is one too many.  Two is like putting straight water into your car's gas tank.  LOL.
> 
> As far as the A2293.  Screw it, I might just give it a shot.  You know.  For the teeeeeeeeeam.



You 'da man!  But get the adapter from Deyan.  I don't think I've yet seen a basing diagram that looks like this spaghetti for the A2293:


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You 'da man!  But get the adapter from Deyan.  I don't think I've yet seen a basing diagram that looks like this spaghetti for the A2293:



I'll see what he can do for pricing.  Lol. if you can find anything on this tube, you're lucky.  I can't barely find anything beyond that 1 pager datasheet that is mostly on the interwebs, which is sparse at best let alone a full pinout diagram.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You 'da man!  But get the adapter from Deyan.  I don't think I've yet seen a basing diagram that looks like this spaghetti for the A2293:



@SHIMACM and company - ok, so all the pieces are in motion.  Just have to wait for things to come in (about 3-4 weeks) and we can get the A2293 party (re)started then.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I'll see what he can do for pricing.  Lol. if you can find anything on this tube, you're lucky.  I can't barely find anything beyond that 1 pager datasheet that is mostly on the interwebs, which is sparse at best let alone a full pinout diagram.



Yeah, I had about the same luck.

https://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/084/a/A2293.pdf

Found this on DIY Audio...


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I had about the same luck.
> 
> https://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/084/a/A2293.pdf
> 
> Found this on DIY Audio...


Well, I would assume if xulingmrs can make them en masse on ebay...  Deyan probably didnt even flinch or blink when I asked if he could make the adapter, the dude just knows and just said "Yes I can do that...".    Genius.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Nov 4, 2020)

Still waiting on the Mullards like



I pulled the trigger on some HD600. They do sound different from 660s on the tube. I would say a little brighter and vocals, god damn it. So good !


----------



## therremans (Nov 4, 2020)

A smaller and a more tactile toggle switch, has a more resistant click/throw to it.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> A smaller and a more tactile toggle switch, has a more resistant click/throw to it.


Is the top one the original switch? And that red glow.... sick.


----------



## therremans (Nov 4, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Is the top one the original switch? And that red glow.... sick.


Yeah, the top is the original. The original wire used was decently thick stranded copper, so I kept it. I just applied fresh high grade heat shrink to the entire line.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "therremans, post: 15957630, membro: 537425"]
Sim, o topo é o original. O fio original usado era de cobre trançado decentemente grosso, então eu o mantive. Acabei de aplicar termorretrátil de alta qualidade em toda a linha.
[/CITAR]





I opened my Darkvoice to do the MOD to disconnect the preamp output. Only when opening, I found that there is no wire connecting in the place that I would have to disconnect. Is there anything else to be done here?


----------



## therremans (Nov 5, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "therremans, post: 15957630, membro: 537425"]
> Sim, o topo é o original. O fio original usado era de cobre trançado decentemente grosso, então eu o mantive. Acabei de aplicar termorretrátil de alta qualidade em toda a linha.
> [/CITAR]
> 
> ...


The output wire runs to the output circuit in the middle of the amp. The input wire runs all the way up front to the volume pot.

Your photo is very dark but I think I see the black ground wire connected here. I circled it.

Unsolder this


Or cut this:

You may also pull off that hot glue and unsolder all three.. the output (L/R) + the black ground.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> The output wire runs to the output circuit in the middle of the amp. The input wire runs all the way up front to the volume pot.
> 
> Your photo is very dark but I think I see the black ground wire connected here. I circled it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the answer. Just a clarification. Do I have to cut only where you circled or did you also mark an "x"?


----------



## therremans (Nov 5, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Thanks for the answer. Just a clarification. Do I have to cut only where you circled or did you also mark an "x"?


Cut the X, or cut/unsolder circle wire.

the X should contain all three wires.

send me some more photos if you want clarification as it was pretty dark. But if you follow the wires, you will be confirmed which is output and which is input


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Cut the X, or cut/unsolder circle wire.
> 
> the X should contain all three wires.
> 
> send me some more photos if you want clarification as it was pretty dark. But if you follow the wires, you will be confirmed which is output and which is input



If I unsolder in the place where you circulated it is a very simple operation. In the place where the X is, I would have to release the glue and more wires to cut. Does desoldering only at the location of the circle achieve the objective?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> If I unsolder in the place where you circulated it is a very simple operation. In the place where the X is, I would have to release the glue and more wires to cut. Does desoldering only at the location of the circle achieve the objective?


Yes, easiest and reversible. Unsolder the circle (black ground wire for output circuit)


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Yes, easiest and reversible. Unsolder the circle (black ground wire for output circuit)



Wonderful! Well, I'm not at home now, when I arrive I will do the procedure and comment on the result with you. Thanks!


----------



## therremans (Nov 5, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Wonderful! Well, I'm not at home now, when I arrive I will do the procedure and comment on the result with you. Thanks!


I noticed yours came with a braided two conductor wire. Mine came with a cheap three conductor gray insulated wire (red, white and black). That I’m replacing with a short section of Mogami 4 conductor cable.

IMO, You might as well remove that hot glue and unsolder all three. Heat it a little with the iron and it will pull right off. It remains an easy reversible operation.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I noticed yours came with a braided two conductor wire. Mine came with a cheap three conductor gray insulated wire (red, white and black). That I’m replacing with a short section of Mogami 4 conductor cable.
> 
> IMO, You might as well remove that hot glue and unsolder all three. Heat it a little with the iron and it will pull right off. It remains an easy reversible operation.


This! ^


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I noticed yours came with a braided two conductor wire. Mine came with a cheap three conductor gray insulated wire (red, white and black). That I’m replacing with a short section of Mogami 4 conductor cable.
> 
> IMO, You might as well remove that hot glue and unsolder all three. Heat it a little with the iron and it will pull right off. It remains an easy reversible operation.



I'll do it this way, disconnecting the three wires.


----------



## therremans (Nov 5, 2020)

Does anyone know who manufactured the Canadian Marconi brand? Licensed by Radiotron.. is this affiliated with RCA? Regardless, these sound very nice.

Edit: I read that RCA trademarked _Radiotron _in the 20s and left it in the 80s.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Does anyone know who manufactured the Canadian Marconi brand? Licensed by Radiotron.. is this affiliated with RCA? Regardless, these sound very nice.


RCA


----------



## therremans (Nov 6, 2020)

I replaced the input RCA jacks with rhodium plated ones. New wire is shielded Mogami four conductor ran straight into the alps pot. Output holes will be plugged with silicone caps.

Results: The noise floor dropped even more and the amp now has *zero* background noise, even at maximum volume. This is probably due to the wire? I didn’t expect to hear any difference.


----------



## SHIMACM

I released the preamp wires. My initial impression was to feel a greater recovery of details in the music. Now it's the courage to make the LED Mod.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> I released the preamp wires. My initial impression was to feel a greater recovery of details in the music. Now it's the courage to make the LED Mod.


Yes! I initially wanted my amp stock. It all started with the output removal and hearing a difference. I have LEDs I can recommend when you are ready.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Yes! I initially wanted my amp stock. It all started with the output removal and hearing a difference. I have LEDs I can recommend when you are ready.



I would like your recommendation for LEDs. . The problem is that I have to see if I can get them in Brazil. .


----------



## therremans (Nov 6, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> I would like your recommendation for LEDs. . The problem is that I have to see if I can get them in Brazil. .


*Mouser #: 630-HLMP-6000
Mfr. #: HLMP-6000*

(product link)
(datasheet)


----------



## SHIMACM (Nov 7, 2020)

[QUOTE = "therremans, post: 15960396, membro: 537425"]
*Mouser #: 630-HLMP-6000
Mfr. #: HLMP-6000*

( link do produto )
( folha de dados )
[/CITAR]

Bem, obrigado pela indicação. Porém, como moro no Brasil, terei que tentar encontrar o LED bem aqui. Mas vou colocar aqui fotos e especificações para sua aprovação antes de fazer o MOD.

Ontem fiz uma longa sessão de escuta. Estou impressionado como a eliminação da pré-saída melhorou o som do Darkvoice. Já foi dito aqui e posso concordar que levantou o véu de Darkvoice. O palco foi ampliado, tanto em largura quanto em profundidade. A separação dos instrumentos melhorou. O som é mais refinado, com mais detalhes em todos os lugares. Eu apenas senti que o impacto de baixo característico do Darkvoice foi um pouco reduzido.

Muito obrigado a todos pela dica.

Ouvi dizer que este MOD em conjunto com o MOD LED torna o Darkvoice muito próximo do Crack.

Quão verdadeira é esta afirmação e quão perto ela chega? Alguém comparou o Darkvoice MODIFICADO ao Crack?


----------



## SHIMACM

I looked in my city and found these led models. Both are 3v. I couldn't find other models. One is red and the other is blue. Do they serve to make the Mod?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> I looked in my city and found these led models. Both are 3v. I couldn't find other models. One is red and the other is blue. Do they serve to make the Mod?


Do you know the forward voltage? I read that makes all the difference.

The first time I attempted this mod, I used “bright orange” LEDs from a local store. They right away didn’t sound good, increased gain too much and the whole sound was “hot”. I’ve read that you want a dim red LED. However I heard UV voltage works too. Google the various people attempting other forward voltages and colors.

I went with mine because someone else tried many and understood the data sheets well enough to know that little diffused red led is an ideal choice.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Do you know the forward voltage? I read that makes all the difference.
> 
> The first time I attempted this mod, I used “bright orange” LEDs from a local store. They right away didn’t sound good, increased gain too much and the whole sound was “hot”. I’ve read that you want a dim red LED. However I heard UV voltage works too. Google the various people attempting other forward voltages and colors.
> 
> I went with mine because someone else tried many and understood the data sheets well enough to know that little diffused red led is an ideal choice.



The direct voltage is 3v. I saw that some people used 5v, 3.4v, but they did not report the result. Is there any other place where people argue about this mod?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> The direct voltage is 3v. I saw that some people used 5v, 3.4v, but they did not report the result. Is there any other place where people argue about this mod?


You will be replacing the 1k ohm resistors with LEDs. Negative side points *away *from the 6sn7 tube socket.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/324722-led-tube-biasing-pros-cons.html
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...the-darkvoice-336se-otl-headphone-amp.923899/
https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk?search=LED
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 7, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> The direct voltage is 3v. I saw that some people used 5v, 3.4v, but they did not report the result. Is there any other place where people argue about this mod?


I used 2v version with no problems https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/lite-on-inc/LTL-4221N/214530
You could try out what you have , it's good soldering practice, and always reversible if it doesn't work out, just don't throw away the stock resistors  .


----------



## therremans

Does anyone have a recommendation on an affordable and compact tube tester? Then there is the topic of calibration.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation on an affordable and compact tube tester? Then there is the topic of calibration.


Senco Mighty Mights is a good start before getting into mutual transconductance testers. 
https://www.radiolaguy.com/info/Mut...ter,more expensive mutual conductance testers.
@bcowen is our test equipment expert here.


----------



## therremans

Okay thanks a lot. Would the Mighty Mite be able to test 6sn7, 6as7g, 6080, 5998 and would my adapters and those other tubes be testable while using the 6sn7 tester settings?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Okay thanks a lot. Would the Mighty Mite be able to test 6sn7, 6as7g, 6080, 5998 and would my adapters and those other tubes be testable while using the 6sn7 tester settings?



Depends on which model of the Mighty Mite (there were several).  The later, all solid-state ones should be able to. All of them probably have the capability, it's just whether they have setup settings listed for the tubes because trying to figure that out on your own can be quite difficult.  The Mighty Mites are emission-only testers (versus mutual transconductance) but for power tubes it can be argued that an emission test is just as worthwhile as a GM test. Signal tubes like 6SN7's are better done with a GM test. And all the Mighty Mites have excellent shorts/leakage testing capabilities.  Best thing is to check the BAMA archive for any tester you're interested in, see what documentation exists, and then look through the tube setup charts to be sure the tubes you want to test are listed.  Many like the 6AS7 and 6080 will have identical settings, so if you can't find one but the other is listed you're good to go.

https://bama.edebris.com/

Look for the manufacturer first, and then drill into the different testers -- calibration info/procedure is a very necessary thing, so if there is no calibration data, then best to look at a different tester unless you can find the data elsewhere. Sometimes the calibration info is contained in the main manual itself (B&K's and Sencores especially).


----------



## SHIMACM (Nov 8, 2020)

@therremans

When searching the site: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/324722-led-tube-biasing-pros-cons-5.html, I found the following information: "Important to remember , placing LED in the circuit wont cure any deficiencies or improve anything, it is not a miracle, just technology which is widely available, cheap and reliable".

So, I would like to know if the led mod will really improve the sound. Is it really worth doing?

I'm not looking for my system to be silent, because it already is.

In my T1 I have total absence of noise and a completely black background.


----------



## SHIMACM (Nov 8, 2020)

[USER = 537425] @therremans [/ USER], [USER = 467979] @JKDJedi [/ USER]
I read comments from you saying that both Mods (Led and cut the pre output) have greatly improved the sound. But restricting yourself to the led mod only, what improvements have you seen?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 8, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> [USER = 537425] @therremans [/ USER], [USER = 467979] @JKDJedi [/ USER]
> I read comments from you saying that both Mods (Led and cut the pre output) have greatly improved the sound. But restricting yourself to the led mod only, what improvements have you seen?


I've read read that it* allows for a much more steady biasing voltage*. That I can not test or prove, what I can vouch for is this reading, everything written here is 100% what I experienced. _* It retained much more detail and clarity and less sag. Not as big a change as lifting the Line Out, but much improved*_*""*. If I didn't pull the line out I would have not done the LED mod. I did pull the line out, the next mod would be the LED mod to _clean up_ what the prior mod did. If your ok with the first mod, then no need to do the LED mod. Lot more fun doing the LED mod though. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/darkvoice-and-crack-mods.5621/


----------



## musicinmymind

I wanted to buy this amp for HD800,

Crack 1.1 from bottlehead also same price range, pls suggest which one would be better


----------



## JKDJedi

musicinmymind said:


> I wanted to buy this amp for HD800,
> 
> Crack 1.1 from bottlehead also same price range, pls suggest which one would be better


My guess is the darker signature of the Darkvoice would tame the reported ultra liveliness of them HD800.


----------



## musicinmymind

JKDJedi said:


> My guess is the darker signature of the Darkvoice would tame the reported ultra liveliness of them HD800.



Thx, will get Darkvoice. Anyway i am not good at solder and mess it up.


----------



## therremans (Nov 8, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> [USER = 537425] @therremans [/ USER], [USER = 467979] @JKDJedi [/ USER]
> I read comments from you saying that both Mods (Led and cut the pre output) have greatly improved the sound. But restricting yourself to the led mod only, what improvements have you seen?


I had previously removed the output ground at this point so it was never possible to accurately compare my amp with an LED mod to the stock sound. The mods were done earlier this year, in the spring I think, so it's been awhile. I remember hearing more details being pulled out of the music with more clarity, likely because the LED doesn't have natural feedback that a resistor has. (what I read, likely minimal) I can't prove anything and I have no real answer for you. But there are plenty of Darkvoice users who did the mod online that you can find (I sent you the links) and that alone was enough to get me to order them and install it to try it myself.


----------



## therremans

I recently received a pair of Beyerdynamic T1.2s. They brought out a lot of detail and clarity with great instrument separation but their presentation was just a little.. boring to me. Even some jazz and classical tracks were more lively and musical on my HD6XXs. The HD6XX are *moving *and I didn't really get that from the T1.2s. Much less low-end thump compared to the HD6XX. T1.2's had a round bass character that was really reserved. Their whole presentation is reserved and laid back, I'd have to get used to it. With the price factored in, I made the choice to return them and go for something else. Closed back bass cannons maybe as the girlfriend does sleep just feet away and recently told me my headphones get loud at night. That second pair would then be a pretty good opposite match to the HD6XX. I will see how the DT-1770 sounds tomorrow.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I recently received a pair of Beyerdynamic T1.2s. They brought out a lot of detail and clarity with great instrument separation but their presentation was just a little.. boring to me. Even some jazz and classical tracks were more lively and musical on my HD6XXs. The HD6XX are *moving *and I didn't really get that from the T1.2s. Much less low-end thump compared to the HD6XX. T1.2's had a round bass character that was really reserved. Their whole presentation is reserved and laid back, I'd have to get used to it. With the price factored in, I made the choice to return them and go for something else. Closed back bass cannons maybe as the girlfriend does sleep just feet away and recently told me my headphones get loud at night. That second pair would then be a pretty good opposite match to the HD6XX. I will see how the DT-1770 sounds tomorrow.


All that will change with some use, I never liked a headphone on initial use, never. Heck it took a thousand hours for me to like the Sennheiser. The Beyerdynamic do well with leather pads and break in.


----------



## SHIMACM

The way is to try od led yourself. I will keep you informed.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> All that will change with some use, I never liked a headphone on initial use, never. Heck it took a thousand hours for me to like the Sennheiser. The Beyerdynamic do well with leather pads and break in.


Not sure if break-in is just in our head or not. But our hearing does have to used to something that is new and make the best of it. They sounded good and in time I would have really heard at what they excel at. The leather dekoni pads probably to bring out the low end. I still don’t think they were the sound I was looking for.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I recently received a pair of Beyerdynamic T1.2s. They brought out a lot of detail and clarity with great instrument separation but their presentation was just a little.. boring to me. Even some jazz and classical tracks were more lively and musical on my HD6XXs. The HD6XX are *moving *and I didn't really get that from the T1.2s. Much less low-end thump compared to the HD6XX. T1.2's had a round bass character that was really reserved. Their whole presentation is reserved and laid back, I'd have to get used to it. With the price factored in, I made the choice to return them and go for something else. Closed back bass cannons maybe as the girlfriend does sleep just feet away and recently told me my headphones get loud at night. That second pair would then be a pretty good opposite match to the HD6XX. I will see how the DT-1770 sounds tomorrow.



I have the first generation T1 and I love this phone on Darkvoice. I find it incredibly fast / dynamic and with a lot of air between the instruments. He really sins the bass. But I don't care much about my musical style. Not to mention the resolution and precision of the image. I'm curious to hear HD6xx on Darkvoice. I already had the HD600, but the amplifier I had at the time was a Little Dot MK IV.

Ps: I am still impressed with how much the stage was increased with the pre mod. My T1 is looking like an Hd800. lol For classical music and opera it is phenomenal.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Not sure if break-in is just in our head or not. But our hearing does have to used to something that is new and make the best of it. They sounded good and in time I would have really heard at what they excel at. The leather dekoni pads probably to bring out the low end. I still don’t think they were the sound I was looking for.


Here comes the break in debate,  The Sennheiser sound is hard to beat. You'd probably have to go in the $1000 plus headphones range to do that.


----------



## JKDJedi

@therremans was cool enough to tip me on a Sylvania 6J5 tube I did not know existed, the grey plated 51'. It seems like (and I could be wrong) that these grey plated tubes were probably just produced in the year of 51. From my short search, the only ones that appeared (even the rebranded which I have) were all 51'. Maybe/hopefully @therremans can verify this with the ones he has. Have not rolled these yet.  about too ... 😁


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Here comes the break in debate,  The Sennheiser sound is hard to beat. You'd probably have to go in the $1000 plus headphones range to do that.



Darkvoice does not take full advantage of T1. Feliks Elise's gang, Woo Wa2 love T1, and say it is 1 or 2 leagues above hd650 / hd6xx.

So my goal is to keep the phone and change the amplifier in the future.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Darkvoice does not take full advantage of T1. Feliks Elise's gang, Woo Wa2 love T1, and say it is 1 or 2 leagues above hd650 / hd6xx.
> 
> So my goal is to keep the phone and change the amplifier in the future.


Cheaper to get the HD6XX ($200) And a new amp is always nice.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Darkvoice does not take full advantage of T1. Feliks Elise's gang, Woo Wa2 love T1, and say it is 1 or 2 leagues above hd650 / hd6xx.
> 
> So my goal is to keep the phone and change the amplifier in the future.


And now you need the hd6xx for the Darkvoice haha


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> And now you need the hd6xx for the Darkvoice haha



LOL. I am satisfied with T1. I am curious about Hd6xx. But as I already had the hd600 and the hd6xx is close I already more or less what to expect. I found the hd600 congested and claustrophobic compared to the T1. Now I'm listening to Led Zeppelin with Chatham 6as7g and RCA vt231 and the instruments scattered on this huge stage make my head spin. No congestion. Everything flows wonderfully well with each instrument very well identified and located.


----------



## JKDJedi

Well S O B.... holy sound waves.... @therremans these are excellent! I haven't rolled the VT-94 military version of these guys in awhile but (from memory) they sound nearly identical. Can't say the same for the black plated consumer version. Not as large sounding as the grey plated and military tubes of these guys. Very nice ..thanks @therremans 👍


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> LOL. I am satisfied with T1. I am curious about Hd6xx. But as I already had the hd600 and the hd6xx is close I already more or less what to expect. I found the hd600 congested and claustrophobic compared to the T1. Now I'm listening to Led Zeppelin with Chatham 6as7g and RCA vt231 and the instruments scattered on this huge stage make my head spin. No congestion. Everything flows wonderfully well with each instrument very well identified and located.


Isn't the HD6XX closer to the HD650? If you could have heard my A/B with some songs would be something that would make you reconsider the HD6XX. but the T1s were very good at detail and separation. Everything is very dependent on equipment, setup and preferences.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Isn't the HD6XX closer to the HD650? If you could have heard my A/B with some songs would be something that would make you reconsider the HD6XX. but the T1s were very good at detail and separation. Everything is very dependent on equipment, setup and preferences.


Yup, HD6XX is a 650


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Isn't the HD6XX closer to the HD650? If you could have heard my A/B with some songs would be something that would make you reconsider the HD6XX. but the T1s were very good at detail and separation. Everything is very dependent on equipment, setup and preferences.



The Hd6xx is identical to the hd650. The two are close to the HD600, with the Hd600 being more neutral and the Hd650 / 6xx with a little increment in the bass and with slightly better drives.

And I agree with you that preferences and equipment change the conclusion.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> The Hd6xx is identical to the hd650. The two are close to the HD600, with the Hd600 being more neutral and the Hd650 / 6xx with a little increment in the bass and with slightly better drives.
> 
> And I agree with you that preferences and equipment change the conclusion.


I'd still get the HD6XX. Can't beat the price for performance on that thing.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Isn't the HD6XX closer to the HD650? If you could have heard my A/B with some songs would be something that would make you reconsider the HD6XX. but the T1s were very good at detail and separation. Everything is very dependent on equipment, setup and preferences.



There is a detail: Your T1 is from the second generation and mine is from the first generation. There is a significant difference in the sound of the two generations. Many prefer the first generation sound signature.


----------



## therremans (Nov 8, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Well S O B.... holy sound waves.... @therremans these are excellent! I haven't rolled the VT-94 military version of these guys in awhile but (from memory) they sound nearly identical. Can't say the same for the black plated consumer version. Not as large sounding as the grey plated and military tubes of these guys. Very nice ..thanks @therremans 👍


You bet. I think they have a warm powerful sound, I currently love them driven by the 5998. They offer a lush sound (vocals are great) but not as open and airy as those Zeniths. But these gray plate Sylvania's could be better for a more variety of music.. house, electronic, jazz, blues, rock.

I saw a recent lot of the NOS vt-94s but it sold for a decent amount. Like you said, there is also a chance they don't sound any different and not worth the premium. I own Ken-rad vt-94s and could not hear a difference. These Sylvania gray plate consumer models can be found for under $5 a tube. I will check the dates and get back to you.

Besides the GEC 6080s I have on the way.. I also found a couple graphite plate 6080s. Bendix red label, NOS Chatham yellow label.

 @Deyan for the adapter


----------



## sennfan83261 (Nov 8, 2020)

Interesting picture of a silver Darkvoice (w/ Vishay output film caps) from the man himself (posted in the 339 thread): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/la-figaro-339.502306/post-15963362


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Interesting picture of a silver Darkvoice (w/ Vishay output film caps) from the man himself (posted in the 339 thread): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/la-figaro-339.502306/post-15963362


is the 339i the same Drop La Figaro amp?


----------



## therremans (Nov 8, 2020)

sennfan83261 said:


> Interesting picture of a silver Darkvoice (w/ Vishay output film caps) from the man himself (posted in the 339 thread): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/la-figaro-339.502306/post-15963362


Thanks for sharing this. I have read and seen others swap out their caps.. hmm


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I have read and seen others swap out their caps.. hmm



Mouser has them, but they're $11 each.  Let us know if it's worth it.   

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Roederstein/MKP1839610164?qs=ZC%2BWKP10IGdjOGlXlrNkxA==


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> is the 339i the same Drop La Figaro amp?


I believe so.


----------



## therremans (Nov 8, 2020)

Are the output caps related to the preamp output or output to the headphones only?

Edit: it’s been awhile since I read up on swapping them but this was helpful. I wonder if I would have to remove the entire board.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Are the output caps related to the preamp output or output to the headphones only?
> 
> Edit: it’s been awhile since I read up on swapping them but this was helpful. I wonder if I would have to remove the entire board.



Headphones only, at least if this schematic is accurate (which it looks to be from the component values in my unit).


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 8, 2020)

therremans said:


> Are the output caps related to the preamp output or output to the headphones? I assume headphones as I’ve read that some have done this to allow them to use lower ohm headphones on their DV





therremans said:


> Are the output caps related to the preamp output or output to the headphones only?
> 
> Edit: it’s been awhile since I read up on swapping them but this was helpful. I wonder if I would have to remove the entire board.


I was gonna ask the same thing but wasn't sure if I'd sound like an idiot as I have no clue, well I kinda have a clue, as to what them capacitors might be! them sized C battery things near center of the Darkvoice is my guess.
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask the same thing but wasn't sure if I'd sound like an idiot as I have no clue, well I kinda have a clue, as to what them capacitors might be! them sized C battery things near center of the Darkvoice is my guess.
> https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/145315/yaqin-cd3-darkvoice-336se-mods-coupling-caps



These 6 caps are what we're referring to:


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> These 6 caps are what we're referring to:



It's crazy that this comes up.  I was just mulling over doing getting the caps mod done for another amp (Liquid Platinum), which doing this has gotten a lot of of praise and positive feedback in greatly improving the amp.  I was just wondering if the similar application could be done here on the DV as well.  

Speaking of which, on a DIY level, is changing the capacitors considered an intermediate/advanced technique to do?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> It's crazy that this comes up.  I was just mulling over doing getting the caps mod done for another amp (Liquid Platinum), which doing this has gotten a lot of of praise and positive feedback in greatly improving the amp.  I was just wondering if the similar application could be done here on the DV as well.
> 
> Speaking of which, on a DIY level, is changing the capacitors considered an intermediate/advanced technique to do?



I haven't examined it thoroughly, but the circuit board will have to come out meaning the leads going into it will have to be desoldered and then reattached. Not a big deal for someone with moderate experience -- not like having to solder SMD's or something.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I haven't examined it thoroughly, but the circuit board will have to come out meaning the leads going into it will have to be desoldered and then reattached. Not a big deal for someone with moderate experience -- not like having to solder SMD's or something.


I don't think this would help with low impedance headphones as much as the Fitz mod would. From my understanding maybe this mod outputs a quieter background? Larger headroom? less distortion? Overall better dynamics? 🤔


----------



## bcowen (Nov 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I don't think this would help with low impedance headphones as much as the Fitz mod would. From my understanding maybe this mod outputs a quieter background? Larger headroom? less distortion? Overall better dynamics? 🤔



I would not expect any difference at all with low impedance headphones.  Quieter background? Possibly, but not necessarily.  Capacitors have a major influence on the overall sound of any component, and with a selling price of $200 (for the Drop DV) the 6 caps in question are most definitely not even close to top-of-the-line. Problem is that with the room available, microfarad value and voltage requirement there aren't a lot of options in a film cap (which is sonically FAR superior to an electrolytic). The stock caps are film, but I would expect the Vishays are a _*big*_ step up from them.

But this is all an assumption on my part, which is why I'm waiting for @therremans to tell us if it's a worthwhile upgrade.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> But this is all an assumption on my part, which is why I'm waiting for @therremans to tell us if it's a worthwhile upgrade.


@therremans


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> @therremans


😂😂😂😂


----------



## therremans

I will attempt it soon, I just need to test these new tubes I have coming in. Since I don't own low impedance headphones or care, I will stick to film caps. 30uf+ per side/channel. Probably the biggest film caps that I can fit. I also need to figure out how much disassembly is necessary to lift the pcb board out.


----------



## therremans (Nov 9, 2020)

@bcowen couldn't the 12 points just be heated up or de-soldered and the cap leads be pulled out?






I think this would work: Dayton Audio PMPC-10 10uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor, and keep the 10uf x 6


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> @bcowen couldn't the 12 points just be heated up or de-soldered and the cap leads be pulled out?



Possibly. I'd be concerned about getting a good solder connection with the new cap leads without being able to get to the solder pad(s) on the circuit board though. I also tend to be anal, so there's that.  



therremans said:


> I think this would work: Dayton Audio PMPC-10 10uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor, and keep the 10uf x 6



Cheaper than the Vishays, but I don't know anything about the Dayton caps. They could be quite good...I just don't know.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> I believe so.


whoah...dual 6J5 (stock)... driver amp.. O.O 💡


----------



## drkhermushov

Hey everyone, I just got a used Darkvoice, but whenever I turn it one, even without the tubes installed,
I hear a buzzing sound coming from the black box thingy, like a transformer noise. And I don't mean the
tube hum through the headphones, but rather ftom the unit itself. Is there something that can be done?
Here is also a photo:


----------



## JKDJedi

drkhermushov said:


> Hey everyone, I just got a used Darkvoice, but whenever I turn it one, even without the tubes installed,
> I hear a buzzing sound coming from the black box thingy, like a transformer noise. And I don't mean the
> tube hum through the headphones, but rather ftom the unit itself. Is there something that can be done?
> Here is also a photo:


the black box thingy, transformer?


----------



## drkhermushov

JKDJedi said:


> the black box thingy, transformer?


LOL, yeah, I didn't know that was the actual transformer, it's the one that's buzzing. When I opened the unit, non of
caps were buzzing or vibrating.


----------



## bcowen

drkhermushov said:


> Hey everyone, I just got a used Darkvoice, but whenever I turn it one, even without the tubes installed,
> I hear a buzzing sound coming from the black box thingy, like a transformer noise. And I don't mean the
> tube hum through the headphones, but rather ftom the unit itself. Is there something that can be done?
> Here is also a photo:



Does it buzz the same with tubes installed and without?  With no tubes installed, there is no load on the transformer and that can, in and of itself, cause it to buzz. 

First thing I'd try is plugging it into another AC outlet in your house (with tubes installed). If no buzz from another outlet, it's possible that the outlet you're using now is wired incorrectly (hot and neutral reversed), or that the wiring into it is loose or corroded.  Transformers can buzz for a variety of reasons, but many times it is due to the incoming AC so best to rule that out first.


----------



## drkhermushov

bcowen said:


> Does it buzz the same with tubes installed and without?  With no tubes installed, there is no load on the transformer and that can, in and of itself, cause it to buzz.
> 
> First thing I'd try is plugging it into another AC outlet in your house (with tubes installed). If no buzz from another outlet, it's possible that the outlet you're using now is wired incorrectly (hot and neutral reversed), or that the wiring into it is loose or corroded.  Transformers can buzz for a variety of reasons, but many times it is due to the incoming AC so best to rule that out first.


It buzzes both with and without. I tried another outlet in the living room (both with and without tubes) and compared to the my bedroom is a bit quiter but not totally gone.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 10, 2020)

drkhermushov said:


> It buzzes both with and without. I tried another outlet in the living room (both with and without tubes) and compared to the my bedroom is a bit quiter but not totally gone.



Hum.  I mean Hmmmm.   

Do you have a cheater plug handy? Interested to see what happens if the earth ground is lifted. If the buzzing changes (or goes away) with the earth ground eliminated, that will at least narrow down what's causing the issue.  _Note I am *not* suggesting you run the amp with the earth ground bypassed permanently, just on a test basis._


----------



## drkhermushov

bcowen said:


> Hum.  I mean Hmmmm.
> 
> Do you have a cheater plug handy? Interested to see what happens if the earth ground is lifted. If the buzzing changes (or goes away) with the earth ground eliminated, that will at least narrow down what's causing the issue.  _Note I am *not* suggesting you run the amp with the earth ground bypassed permanently, just on a test basis._


Unfortunately, I live in Europe and the plug is already 2 pinned, so I that wouldn't work.


----------



## JKDJedi

drkhermushov said:


> Unfortunately, I live in Europe and the plug is already 2 pinned, so I that wouldn't work.


your amp the 110 version by any chance?


----------



## drkhermushov

JKDJedi said:


> your amp the 110 version by any chance?


I checked everywhere, it doesn't say what voltage, but I doubt it's 120, since when connected works fine
and dandy; aside from the noise. I don't think it would even turn on if it were 120v version.


----------



## wideload

sennfan83261 said:


> Interesting picture of a silver Darkvoice (w/ Vishay output film caps) from the man himself (posted in the 339 thread): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/la-figaro-339.502306/post-15963362


Is the silver Darkvoice known as the Lightvoice? 😀


----------



## JKDJedi

wideload said:


> Is the silver Darkvoice known as the Lightvoice? 😀


L M F A O !!


----------



## bcowen

drkhermushov said:


> I checked everywhere, it doesn't say what voltage, but I doubt it's 120, since when connected works fine
> and dandy; aside from the noise. I don't think it would even turn on if it were 120v version.



I must now admit my ignorance on European sockets and plugs.  

Does the below look like yours, or could you get a picture of the wall plug?


----------



## drkhermushov

bcowen said:


> I must now admit my ignorance on European sockets and plugs.
> 
> Does the below look like yours, or could you get a picture of the wall plug?


yes, exactly like this.


----------



## bcowen

drkhermushov said:


> yes, exactly like this.



Ah, OK.  Do you have a piece of electrical tape (or plastic tape, etc) that you could use to cover the earth ground contacts on the plug?  Again, just wanting to see if this is a grounding issue, so trying to (temporarily only) take the earth ground out of the picture.


----------



## drkhermushov

bcowen said:


> Ah, OK.  Do you have a piece of electrical tape (or plastic tape, etc) that you could use to cover the earth ground contacts on the plug?  Again, just wanting to see if this is a grounding issue, so trying to (temporarily only) take the earth ground out of the picture.


Just tried om 2 outlets in 2 different rooms, it's still there.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Ah, OK.  Do you have a piece of electrical tape (or plastic tape, etc) that you could use to cover the earth ground contacts on the plug?  Again, just wanting to see if this is a grounding issue, so trying to (temporarily only) take the earth ground out of the picture.





drkhermushov said:


> Just tried om 2 outlets in 2 different rooms, it's still there.


https://www.pooraudiophile.com/2015...Offset and,produce an audible, mechanical hum.


----------



## drkhermushov

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.pooraudiophile.com/2015/03/how-to-fix-dc-offset-and-transformer.html#:~:text=What is DC Offset and,produce an audible, mechanical hum.


Unfortunately, none of solutions available to me- Emotiva doesn't have a 220V version and PS audio's has been discontinued.


----------



## Slade01

drkhermushov said:


> Unfortunately, none of solutions available to me- Emotiva doesn't have a 220V version and PS audio's has been discontinued.



I was thinking along similar lines.  Not that they have to be those brands, etc. but some type of power conditioner could help.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 10, 2020)

drkhermushov said:


> Unfortunately, none of solutions available to me- Emotiva doesn't have a 220V version and PS audio's has been discontinued.


Seems like it's your residence electrical system that's causing the hum.

you can walk a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it. .. who said that!.....oh wait ... it was me. 😁


----------



## therremans (Nov 10, 2020)

Yeah, I was going to mention checking for a ground loop issue. It could also be inside the amp? Hope you can figure it out. Are you comfortable taking it apart to get to the transformer? Do you have modder blood? 



Received the NOS Mullard from Langrex last evening. It felt like I was the first to open the box and unwrap the paper. After some decent hours with it now.. I can say it beat my expectations and is a great power tube, highly recommend it.

Paired with the L63s, a phenomenal combo for jazz and such on the hd6xx. I first noticed it’s highly responsive dynamics, it brings out the highs and details but still has a full warm natural sound.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yeah, I was going to mention checking for a ground loop issue. It could also be inside the amp? Hope you can figure it out. Are you comfortable taking it apart to get to the transformer? Do you have modder blood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sick, gonna have to try that combo tonight, and love how the adapter sits flush there... might try to mod mine to do the same.. razor blade and bandaids here they come .. 😂


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Off topic but,...

My best friend was in upstate NY over the weekend and brought me home a gift,



This is not right, I know he didn't pay a ton of money, but am I wrong, These are not real Mullard tubes are they?

Asking the Mighty gods of this thread.....


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Off topic but,...
> 
> My best friend was in upstate NY over the weekend and brought me home a gift,
> 
> ...


it's a sweet looking Russian tube. They're not real Mullards, they didn't make 6as7g tubes (not to my knowledge). Bet it sounds killer though.


----------



## Slade01

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Off topic but,...
> 
> My best friend was in upstate NY over the weekend and brought me home a gift,
> 
> ...



Maybe russian due to the saucer getters on the bottom....


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> it's a sweet looking Russian tube. They're not real Mullards, they didn't make 6as7g tubes (not to my knowledge). Bet it sounds killer though.



That's what I thought, looks exactly like my Sovtek! I didn't say anything to him but knew it wasn't right I was just making sure. They are both brand new told me he paid 30 for the pair.

Thanks for helping me out, and yes I saw the ufo getters right away...lol


----------



## Slade01

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> That's what I thought, looks exactly like my Sovtek! I didn't say anything to him but knew it wasn't right I was just making sure. They are both brand new told me he paid 30 for the pair.
> 
> Thanks for helping me out, and yes I saw the ufo getters right away...lol



Still while off topic somewhat - just to tag a question related to these sovteks/mullards -- one of the markings I have question on is the "Made in England".  I know Mullards have something to the effect of Made in Gt. Britain or something similar.  Is the Made in England printing an automatic fake giveaway as well as far Mullard/Gec/Europe Gov/Mil Tubes?


----------



## therremans

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> That's what I thought, looks exactly like my Sovtek! I didn't say anything to him but knew it wasn't right I was just making sure. They are both brand new told me he paid 30 for the pair.
> 
> Thanks for helping me out, and yes I saw the ufo getters right away...lol


I paid the same for mine. It’s labeled by Edicron and is a nice tube to have around.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

therremans said:


> I paid the same for mine. It’s labeled by Edicron and is a nice tube to have around.



Giving it a run now, and yes always good to have Tubes around! I enjoy my Sovtek, especially with the Tungsol 6SN7GTB, really like that combo.


----------



## drkhermushov

therremans said:


> Yeah, I was going to mention checking for a ground loop issue. It could also be inside the amp? Hope you can figure it out. Are you comfortable taking it apart to get to the transformer? Do you have modder blood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I already opened the backplate once, couple of screws but no modder blood. That being said, what needs to be done?
Is swapping the transformer possible?


----------



## therremans

drkhermushov said:


> I already opened the backplate once, couple of screws but no modder blood. That being said, what needs to be done?
> Is swapping the transformer possible?


Swapping the transformer is possible and I’ll provide you a link to a gentleman who has done this. I would check your solder joints and make sure no caps are pushing against something. Just carefully go through it. I really don’t know otherwise. Things may test okay on a multimeter. This is out of my experience and typically when I’d just take it apart and replace things.


----------



## bcowen

drkhermushov said:


> I already opened the backplate once, couple of screws but no modder blood. That being said, what needs to be done?
> Is swapping the transformer possible?



Yeah, since we've now ruled out the ground loop, there are few options.  However, if it's the AC feed in your house that's causing the problem (which is very possible), replacing the transformer will only provide you with a new transformer that buzzes.    Any possibility you could take it to a family member or friend's house to see if it buzzes plugged into one of their outlets?  Might be worth the time, versus going to the effort and expense of a new transformer only to find out that's not the problem and it doesn't help.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yeah, since we've now ruled out the ground loop, there are few options.  However, if it's the AC feed in your house that's causing the problem (which is very possible), replacing the transformer will only provide you with a new transformer that buzzes.    Any possibility you could take it to a family member or friend's house to see if it buzzes plugged into one of their outlets?  Might be worth the time, versus going to the effort and expense of a new transformer only to find out that's not the problem and it doesn't help.


We're all thinking it, saying it ..but DAVE"S NOT HERE>..


----------



## drkhermushov

bcowen said:


> Yeah, since we've now ruled out the ground loop, there are few options.  However, if it's the AC feed in your house that's causing the problem (which is very possible), replacing the transformer will only provide you with a new transformer that buzzes.    Any possibility you could take it to a family member or friend's house to see if it buzzes plugged into one of their outlets?  Might be worth the time, versus going to the effort and expense of a new transformer only to find out that's not the problem and it doesn't help.


Thanks for your input. I'll definately do that. I really love this amp, shame if I have to let it go...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, I was going to mention checking for a ground loop issue. It could also be inside the amp? Hope you can figure it out. Are you comfortable taking it apart to get to the transformer? Do you have modder blood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool beans!  My dyslexic 6080 came in yesterday from England, 10 days from shipment no less.  Was a bit of a gamble being untested, but it tests great with no interelement leakage to speak of, GM that's just a hair under NOS value, and the internal construction is identical to the one I already have. Got lucky with this one...paid more for the shipping than the tube.


----------



## therremans (Nov 10, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Cool beans!  My dyslexic 6080 came in yesterday from England, 10 days from shipment no less.  Was a bit of a gamble being untested, but it tests great with no interelement leakage to speak of, GM that's just a hair under NOS value, and the internal construction is identical to the one I already have. Got lucky with this one...paid more for the shipping than the tube.


I won the other auction for the “8060” pair


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I won the other auction for the “8060” pair



Excellent!  We both have 2 now....we should do lunch.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I won the other auction for the “8060” pair



Lol.  Had I known it was you, i wouldn't have put in those to bids in between and you maybe could have had it just slightly cheaper.      Congrats on winning!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Lol.  Had I known it was you, i wouldn't have put in those to bids in between and you maybe could have had it just slightly cheaper.      Congrats on winning!



I think we need a "Hands Off" emoticon when we post an Ebay link.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I think we need a "Hands Off" emoticon when we post an Ebay link.  LOL!!


I know..Hey check this link out but don't look at it..


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I think we need a "Hands Off" emoticon when we post an Ebay link.  LOL!!


*Shares an eBay link: *



*Final bidders who saw it: *


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Shares an eBay link: *
> 
> *Final bidders who saw it: *



ROFL!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> *Shares an eBay link: *
> 
> *Final bidders who saw it: *


----------



## JKDJedi

Rolling oldies but goodies.. Sylvania 7N7 this morning


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Still while off topic somewhat - just to tag a question related to these sovteks/mullards -- one of the markings I have question on is the "Made in England".  I know Mullards have something to the effect of Made in Gt. Britain or something similar.  Is the Made in England printing an automatic fake giveaway as well as far Mullard/Gec/Europe Gov/Mil Tubes?


That's a great point there @Slade01 makes you wonder if a Brimar is sold as "Made In England" stamped on the tube, is it really a Brimar?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling oldies but goodies.. Sylvania 7N7 this morning



A FrankImposter!  How's it sound?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A FrankImposter!  How's it sound?


liking it, comparable to the 6j5 width. I was trying to mod my 6j5 adapter and temporarily ruined it last night 🙄 put it away before I did any more damage to it and rolled the 7N7 to hold me over. the adapter was glued back together. (yes glued. .😂) so back in the 6j5 game but gonna hold off and enjoy some of the other tubes I have laying around. 7N7 for starters. Sylvania today, Philco tomorrow, and then the Lansdale for the weekend. get some kind of picture how they compare. (although I already have an idea)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was trying to mod my 6j5 adapter and temporarily ruined it last night 🙄 put it away before I did any more damage to it and rolled the 7N7 to hold me over.



OMG!  I'm not even gonna ask. We need to get you some Lincoln Logs or Legos to play with instead.


----------



## therremans

This is the Franken tube I picked up for $3 with only one testing triode. I plugged it in and confirmed that there is only audio out of the left channel.
I gave the pins a good brush scrub with alcohol, followed by DeoxIT red + gold. They aren’t corroded but have a darkened appearance, still no fix.

Applied some heat, hoping it will awaken something.. nope. Next, diamond bit used to rough up each pin to removed all of the tarnish. Now they are bright again, feeling hopeful. Brushed on DeoxIT gold and plugged the monster back in..

Still only the left channel works.. but it sure does sound nice.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 11, 2020)

therremans said:


> This is the Franken tube I picked up for $3 with only one testing triode. I plugged it in and confirmed that there is only audio out of the left channel.
> I gave the pins a good brush scrub with alcohol, followed by DeoxIT red + gold. They aren’t corroded but have a darkened appearance, still no fix.
> 
> Applied some heat, hoping it will awaken something.. nope. Next, diamond bit used to rough up each pin to removed all of the tarnish. Now they are bright again, feeling hopeful. Brushed on DeoxIT gold and plugged the monster back in..
> ...


There's one out there for way more than $3 on Ebay. You might find one of them in one of those bulk sale listings for the same price ($3), or close with both channels working, worth the hunt. these (Philco 7N7) have the oval micas top and bottom.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILCO-JAN-CHS-7N7-Tube/254501734439?hash=item3b417c4827:g:aRUAAOSw~PdeN0dM


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> There's one out there for way more than $3 on Ebay. You might find one of them in one of those bulk sale listings for the same price ($3), or close with both channels working, worth the hunt. these (Philco 7N7) have the oval micas top and bottom.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILCO-JAN-CHS-7N7-Tube/254501734439?hash=item3b417c4827:g:aRUAAOSw~PdeN0dM


Yeah, I saw that one before. Love his sales approach..  price item high, describe as new Open Box and then add “Sold as is. No returns.” Versus marking it untested as is and let it go for a low price. I’d take my chances then.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yeah, I saw that one before. Love his sales approach..  price item high, describe as new Open Box and then add “Sold as is. No returns.” Versus marking it untested as is and let it go for a low price. I’d take my chances then.


And the JAN-CHS description .. 😂😂 well he's trying.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> This is the Franken tube I picked up for $3 with only one testing triode. I plugged it in and confirmed that there is only audio out of the left channel.
> I gave the pins a good brush scrub with alcohol, followed by DeoxIT red + gold. They aren’t corroded but have a darkened appearance, still no fix.
> 
> Applied some heat, hoping it will awaken something.. nope. Next, diamond bit used to rough up each pin to removed all of the tarnish. Now they are bright again, feeling hopeful. Brushed on DeoxIT gold and plugged the monster back in..
> ...



That's a _beautiful_ MonoFrank.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There's one out there for way more than $3 on Ebay. You might find one of them in one of those bulk sale listings for the same price ($3), or close with both channels working, worth the hunt. these (Philco 7N7) have the oval micas top and bottom.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILCO-JAN-CHS-7N7-Tube/254501734439?hash=item3b417c4827:g:aRUAAOSw~PdeN0dM



$55?  *Plus *shipping? LOL! I'm used to paying 10-15% of that for Frankies....with shipping.


----------



## drkhermushov

Has anyone here recently bought a Darkvoice and had it shipped to EU?


----------



## therremans

drkhermushov said:


> Has anyone here recently bought a Darkvoice and had it shipped to EU?


No but here’s a website that may sell you one.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That's a _beautiful_ MonoFrank.


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## drkhermushov

therremans said:


> No but here’s a website that may sell you one.


Sorry, my question was very confusing. I asked because i noticed there's a sale going on on Shenzhen audio's website. I wanted
to know if anyone from EU has recently ordered and if so how long it took for it to arrive.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Nov 13, 2020)

Mullards have arrived




I'm running a new Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB along with the Mullard. Any recommendations for another 6SN7 ? A better 6SN7

Is this a good buy ? https://bit.ly/2IAxF3a


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Mullards have arrived
> 
> I'm running a new Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB along with the Mullard. Any recommendations for another 6SN7 ? A better 6SN7
> 
> Is this a good buy ? https://bit.ly/2IAxF3a



Sweet!  

I've never heard a Mullard ECC33 so can't comment on how it stacks up sonically. Personally, I'd be a bit hesitant on paying that much for a tube that the seller will not accept returns on.  May turn out to be just fine. May have a dead triode.  And you have no other recourse through Ebay with the seller as they are stating upfront it's untested and sold as-is.  Just my $0.02.


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Mullards have arrived
> 
> I'm running a new Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB along with the Mullard. Any recommendations for another 6SN7 ? A better 6SN7
> 
> Is this a good buy ? https://bit.ly/2IAxF3a



I like the RCA vt231 gray glass combined with the Mullard 6080. Excellent synergy.


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> I like the RCA vt231 gray glass combined with the Mullard 6080. Excellent synergy.


Can't find those RCA's in EU. Need to do some research


----------



## therremans

The 8060s arrived, with friends.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 13, 2020)

therremans said:


> The 8060s arrived, with friends.


That Slotted Bendix is gonna blow you away .. strap your seatbelt on. 🙂


----------



## Deceneu808

Pulled the trigger on a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> The 8060s arrived, with friends.



Ahhh....some 8060BW's.    Nice!


----------



## Slade01

@Deyan - adapter came and it's excellent!  Thank you!

Rolling the GEC L63 pair this morning.  I won't go into it too much as others here have already and pretty accurately have the same impressions.  My biggest takeaway - it sounds really really great right off the bat.  If the sound even changes (for the better) as it goes with more burn in, then that is a (scary) good bonus.  Very (micro) detailed/resolving.  @JKDJedi you're right about your impression from the 6J5 thread - it sounds less warm as a result, a step towards solid state -- i think its a great balance to warmth vs. details/soundstage.   but pairing it with a warmer power tube will provide a nice balance (paired with that GB6080).


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @Deyan - adapter came and it's excellent!  Thank you!
> 
> Rolling the GEC L63 pair this morning.  I won't go into it too much as others here have already and pretty accurately have the same impressions.  My biggest takeaway - it sounds really really great right off the bat.  If the sound even changes (for the better) as it goes with more burn in, then that is a (scary) good bonus.  Very (micro) detailed/resolving.  @JKDJedi you're right about your impression from the 6J5 thread - it sounds less warm as a result, a step towards solid state -- i think its a great balance to warmth vs. details/soundstage.   but pairing it with a warmer power tube will provide a nice balance (paired with that GB6080).


Awww...man..how did you get your adapter before me!!!! X( ... @Deyan  L M F A O..... and ...awesome those look MINT!! Congrats @Slade01 They will open up even more.. your a spoiled BRAT!!!!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Awww...man..how did you get your adapter before me!!!! X( ... @Deyan  L M F A O..... and ...awesome those look MINT!! Congrats @Slade01 They will open up even more.. your a spoiled BRAT!!!!



That's easy.  Im on the east coast.  The airplane drops off here first, and takes another week for Cali.    There may be no waves in Jersey, but we get faster delivery...lol.

And hey, im not as spoiled as @therremans who bought his "8060s" for a song!    And a slotted bendix to boot?  That's gonna kick a**!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> That's easy.  Im on the east coast.  The airplane drops off here first, and takes another week for Cali.    There may be no waves in Jersey, but we get faster delivery...lol.
> 
> And hey, im not as spoiled as @therremans who bought his "8060s" for a song!    And a slotted bendix to boot?  That's gonna kick a**!


Forget Elvis! When I grow up I wanna be just like @therremans


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> The 8060s arrived, with friends.


There's been discussion whether the Chatham (graphite plated) 6080 are really Bendix tubes, and that the slotted graphite plates (like the Bendix there) are among the favorites with many users. Maybe some thoughts on the two, comparisons?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> There's been discussion whether the Chatham (graphite plated) 6080 are really Bendix tubes, and that the slotted graphite plates (like the Bendix there) are among the favorites with many users. Maybe some thoughts on the two, comparisons?



As far as I know, all graphite plated 6080 originated from Bendix.  I haven't heard anything yet contrary to this...interesting if there was proof.


----------



## therremans (Nov 13, 2020)

...and now I'm sitting here like the fat Elvis. Okay, so unfortunately these were all untested tubes.

The Mullards were a total gamble and the price was right. ~$20 each. These have the dual getters, my new NOS from Langrex is a single getter. I let each tube idle last night to see if they worked over a period of 15-30 minutes. The first was fine, so in went the second. 5 minutes in and all was well. My eyes pan over and the Mullard is glowing a radioactive bright white like a supernova was about to go down. Is this what happens when the vacuum is lost? Well it's lost its vacuum and is a very dead tube, rip.

Now onto the Bendix graphite plates. The Chatham was the first in and all seemed well. Now onto the famous slotted plate.., sadly its barely hanging on. I noticed that it took awhile to reach a normal glow and then it became _extremely _hot. The right channel is about 30-50% in volume, when compared to the left and when turned off, it flashed blue. I am sending this one back today for a refund.

My NOS Mullard from Langrex paired with the L63 and HD6XX, felt end game to me. Especially for jazz, classical and the such. Punching way higher than its price point anyway. So I was pretty eager to compare it to the dual getter version to see if there could be any differences. They sound very similar so I would just get the NOS from Langrex if you need one of these before they are gone.

The problem with that above statement is that now when I switch over to the Chatham *solid *graphite plate 6080.. I prefer it. It's another level of fullness in the sound. Not only with jazz but anything I throw at it, even edm with closed backs on. It's a very versatile tube. I was expecting the graphite plates to sound bold and deep but actually it excels at bringing out the details in the low end. Bass strings and lower notes sound more refined. It never sounds bloated and the soundstage is good. So due to that quality, its extremely dynamic and adaptive to a variety of music. I could see this being a power tube that remains in and just swapping out preamp tubes. The 5998 is still different and does its own thing well.. hot, punchy and clear, with a detailed but non-emphasized low end. Some other tubes like this will take you lower. The graphite plate 6080 does seem to be king of the 6080s but i have not heard the GEC 6080. that full-bodied, warm detailed sound from top to bottom. I will continue hunting for another slotted plate Bendix to compare the two.

**
As a side note for bass heads, I am demoing a pair of the Beyerdynamic DT-1770s. I have gotten them to sound pretty nice (with a lot of tweaking) for some aggressive music types but will be able to compare it to the DT-770 soon. I will possibly be keeping the DT-770 and sending the DT-1770 back. I am still rolling but had found a great combination for low end by using the Svetlana Winged C or RCA 6AS7G paired with the Tung-Sol VT-163. For hard hitting bass for edm/dub. However, the Tung Sol VT-163 does not work with the bendix, just like the 5998. The signal is too hot (in sound). So I have been testing the graphite plates with other preamp tubes. The Zenith 6J5GTs even sounded good with electronic. KenRad VT-231 black glass, it did pair well here on the low and high end, but I am sometimes thinking I am missing some details with the KenRad. Sylvanias 6J5GT gray or black plates were just a little too warm and may pair better with the 5998. It's safe to say that the graphite plates paired with the Tung Sol VT-99 will be a favorite combination and should do well in more aggressive hard hitting music. It goes to show how versatile the graphite plate tube can be.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> ​...and now I'm sitting here like the fat Elvis. Okay, so unfortunately these were all untested tubes.
> 
> The Mullards were a total gamble and the price was right. ~$20 each. These have the dual getters, my new NOS from Langrex is a single getter. I let each tube idle last night to see if they worked over a period of 15-30 minutes. The first was fine, so in went the second. 5 minutes in and all was well. My eyes pan over and the Mullard is glowing a radioactive bright white like a supernova was about to go down. Is this what happens when the vacuum is lost? Well it's lost its vacuum and is a very dead tube, rip.
> 
> ...


As always, on point with your evaluations, nice and less than 6 hours! 👍 I'm sorry about the Slotted Bendix channel imbalance there and they do take 20 minutes to warm up. I wouldn't be to alarmed about the blue glow. but the imbalance would be a major turn off for me.. that's a lot. I'd try heating up them pins before sending it back.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> As always, on point with your evaluations, nice and less than 6 hours! 👍 I'm sorry about the Slotted Bendix channel imbalance there and they do take 20 minutes to warm up. I wouldn't be to alarmed about the blue glow. but the imbalance would be a major turn off for me.. that's a lot. I'd try heating up them pins before sending it back.



A hazy, blue _glow_ around the plates (fluorescence) is not usually a cause for concern. A blue _flash_ is a bit different and could indicate arcing, which is a very *not* happy thing.  Regardless if the channel balance is off that badly it indicates a pretty big imbalance of emissions between the triodes. Resoldering the pins _might_ fix it, but if the tube is returnable that's what I'd do.


----------



## therremans

It was more of a fluorescence that covered a plate like lighter fluid, but that wasn't a big concern as I had heard of a similar thing when tubes start up? Anyways, It starting humming at max volume in the right channel when I tried it again today and I was then concerned it would damage something. Sent it back.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It was more of a fluorescence that covered a plate like lighter fluid, but that wasn't a big concern as I had heard of a similar thing when tubes start up? Anyways, It starting humming at max volume in the right channel when I tried it again today and I was then concerned it would damage something. Sent it back.



Fluorescence is cool.  Don't see it so much with indirectly heated triodes like the 6080 family, but DHT's like 2A3's and 300B's almost always have a bit of blue haze making them look as good as they sound.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> It was more of a fluorescence that covered a plate like lighter fluid, but that wasn't a big concern as I had heard of a similar thing when tubes start up? Anyways, It starting humming at max volume in the right channel when I tried it again today and I was then concerned it would damage something. Sent it back.



Yeah...not worth risking your amp for sure. Glad you could send it back at least.  What IS worth it, however, with the Fat Elvis vibe...fool's gold loaf!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Fluorescence is cool.  Don't see it so much with indirectly heated triodes like the 6080 family, but DHT's like 2A3's and 300B's almost always have a bit of blue haze making them look as good as they sound.


Haha yeah maybe its because the Bendix got so hot.. you could smell the heat and that scent of old. With the usb mini fan, it practically heated up our small studio.

I ordered new sockets. They will go in soon. Belton Micalex, which I have heard great things.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Haha yeah maybe its because the Bendix got so hot.. you could smell the heat and that scent of old. With the usb mini fan, it practically heated up our small studio.
> 
> I ordered new sockets. They will go in soon. Belton Micalex, which I have heard great things.



Those *are* very nice sockets, and perfect for a, um, tube hoarder roller.    I made the mistake of replacing the octal socket on my Weston tester with a NOS Cinch.  Great socket for the long haul, bad choice for a tester (or roller) as it puts a vise grip on the tube pins.  Feels like you're gonna break the tube trying to pull it put.  

But you were going to do those Vishay caps next, right?


----------



## therremans (Nov 13, 2020)

RCA silicone plugs 12mm - link
Aluminum knob 38mm - link, this knob is very similar to the original but is made out of aluminum. it's also deeper and wider so it will fit the ALPS blue pots (set screw, not knurled)


----------



## SHIMACM

I can see some people talking well about the GEC L63 and I was wondering if it is more worthwhile to buy a Melz 1578 or the GEC L63?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I can see some people talking well about the GEC L63 and I was wondering if it is more worthwhile to buy a Melz 1578 or the GEC L63?


Why not buy both? Each has their own flavor. Your asking us to debate over breakfast or dinner..which one is better? 


bcowen said:


> Fluorescence is cool.  Don't see it so much with indirectly heated triodes like the 6080 family, but DHT's like 2A3's and 300B's almost always have a bit of blue haze making them look as good as they sound.


Mullards do this cool glow, love it. 


therremans said:


> Haha yeah maybe its because the Bendix got so hot.. you could smell the heat and that scent of old. With the usb mini fan, it practically heated up our small studio.
> 
> I ordered new sockets. They will go in soon. Belton Micalex, which I have heard great things.


I want to do this..my sockets are wrecked.. might send my amp to @bcowen to do the honors..


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Haha yeah maybe its because the Bendix got so hot.. you could smell the heat and that scent of old. With the usb mini fan, it practically heated up our small studio.
> 
> I ordered new sockets. They will go in soon. Belton Micalex, which I have heard great things.


Good choice. I used Belton sockets to replace the cheap-ass "ceramic" one in my Little Bear amp. Still have a good grip on the pins after many, many tube swaps


----------



## bcowen (Nov 14, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I want to do this..my sockets are wrecked.. might send my amp to @bcowen to do the honors..



Well if they're wrecked now, pretty good chance I won't wreck them further.  Probably.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Well if they're wrecked now, pretty good chance I won't wreck them further.


Good opportunity then to try to soup it up with those vishay caps!


----------



## bcowen (Nov 14, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Good opportunity then to try to soup it up with those vishay caps!



Man, that's an _awesome_ idea!  Link below Jedi...just send them to me with the sockets and the amp, and you can tell us all if it's worth the money.  LOL!! 

PS: remember you need 6 of them.  

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Roederstein/MKP1839610164?qs=ZC%2BWKP10IGdjOGlXlrNkxA==

Edit:  there's a discount if you buy more than 10. So perhaps ordering 12 is the way to go.  hint hint


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Man, that's an _awesome_ idea!  Link below Jedi...just send them to me with the sockets and the amp, and you can tell us all if it's worth the money.  LOL!!
> 
> PS: remember you need 6 of them.
> 
> ...


We might have to table this discussion till after the holidays... but sounds like a plan!!! 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> We might have to table this discussion till after the holidays... but sounds like a plan!!! 😁



I think you deserve an upgraded amp for Christmas.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I think you deserve an upgraded amp for Christmas.


🙂🤫😶🤔 well.... this is true... 😎


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> 🙂🤫😶🤔 well.... this is true... 😎


I think go ahead and order 18 caps for the extra discount. You can always ship me 6 if they sound better. If you need an alps I have a 50k, 20k and 10k, plus all the parts I used to create the shunt board.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I think go ahead and order 18 caps for the extra discount. You can always ship me 6 if they sound better. If you need an alps I have a 50k, 20k and 10k, plus all the parts I used to create the shunt board.



You get to put the pot in for him.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You get to put the pot in for him.


So after @bcowen puts in the caps he'll ship it to @therremans to put in the pot .. let's do it! 🤣


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> You get to put the pot in for him.





JKDJedi said:


> So after @bcowen puts in the caps he'll ship it to @therremans to put in the pot .. let's do it! 🤣


Oh yeah, great, that pot that doesn’t fit.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh yeah, great, that pot that doesn’t fit.



ROFL!  Nobody ever promised this would be easy.  At least your part.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Nobody ever promised this would be easy.  At least your part.


It will definitely be quicker the second time around.


----------



## therremans

Tung-sol VT-99, paired with the Chatham/Bendix graphite plates.

All I hoped it would be. Very energetic/fast, punchy mids with detailed powerful lows. Great impact and separation. Soundstage is still pretty wide. Get some.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Tung-sol VT-99, paired with the Chatham/Bendix graphite plates.
> 
> All I hoped it would be. Very energetic/fast, punchy mids with detailed powerful lows. Great impact and separation. Soundstage is still pretty wide. Get some.


That's a nice looking set up there. me Likey .


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Tung-sol VT-99, paired with the Chatham/Bendix graphite plates.
> 
> All I hoped it would be. Very energetic/fast, punchy mids with detailed powerful lows. Great impact and separation. Soundstage is still pretty wide. Get some.



I really like that top cap on your adapter.  Not Chinese. Wherefore didst thou procure?  

And I sure hope you're right on the TungSol....these were expensive.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> That's a nice looking set up there. me Likey .







bcowen said:


> I really like that top cap on your adapter.  Not Chinese. Wherefore didst thou procure?


I bought it that way from 🇨🇳. Are the common caps the white ceramic? I can send you a link if you want.


bcowen said:


> And I sure hope you're right on the TungSol....these were expensive.


Oh yes, I’ve heard of this Italian. Fine taste.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I bought it that way from 🇨🇳. Are the common caps the white ceramic? I can send you a link if you want.
> 
> Oh yes, I’ve heard of this Italian. Fine taste.



LOL!  The ones I've received are all hard plastic I think, not even ceramic.  Thanks for offering on the link...don't need it really.  Was thinking you'd swapped it out was all.

Was trying to organize a little today until I figured out it was a lost cause and quit.    But I stumbled on a nice pair of unused Kimber RCA's and enough of this primo silver wire (with a braided silver shield and PTFE insulation) that I'll use for the inputs in the DV.  You know, just as soon as I get around to installing the pot....


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The ones I've received are all hard plastic I think, not even ceramic.  Thanks for offering on the link...don't need it really.  Was thinking you'd swapped it out was all.
> 
> Was trying to organize a little today until I figured out it was a lost cause and quit.    But I stumbled on a nice pair of unused Kimber RCA's and enough of this primo silver wire (with a braided silver shield and PTFE insulation) that I'll use for the inputs in the DV.  You know, just as soon as I get around to installing the pot....


Nice finds. The black cap version is now on eBay. It might be Bakelite. It would be easy to solder one on but they want  $7.75 for one cap.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nice finds. The black cap version is now on eBay. It might be Bakelite. It would be easy to solder one on but they want  $7.75 for one cap.



Sheeez.  Angela has real ceramic ones for $1.79, but shipping is extra...

https://www.angela.com/ceramictopcapfor6j7andothertubes.aspx





But then there's these for $1 each.  I doubt any of these caps make any sonic difference whatsoever, but these just look cool.  And cool is always better, right?      

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-6F8G...899922?hash=item3fa9b12a92:g:TNgAAOSw3EpbfMz4


----------



## therremans

They do fit snug. My other 7193 adapter has the white ceramic caps and they wiggle around. Seems more aesthetic than anything else.


----------



## therremans (Nov 16, 2020)

*Tung-Sol VT-99 (6F8G) vs VT-163 (6C8G)*

My first impression of the 6F8G tube was a good one. I purchased an old worn National Union off eBay and preferred it over all of my other 6sn7s I owned at the time. This led me down the road of trying various 6F8Gs and their military counterparts, the VT-99. I have now owned and listened to most American versions, RCA, Raytheon, Sylvania, etc. and had always heard how the Tung-Sol VT-99 were_ creme de la creme,_ but had become very rare and expensive. These are my impressions on my modified Darkvoice, you may experience different results, especially on another amplifier.



_Tung-Sol VT-163 (6C8G) round mica, round plates:* $10-$60 each*, _I read from a few sources that the VT-163 (6C8G) sounds identical but carries a slightly higher gain, which would translate to a lower volume position. I purchased one for an affordable price, in fact I own a few now. The main problem with the VT-163, is that I could not use my 5998, which was my most used power tube. I should also point out that it does *not *work with the 7236, Bendix and 6080 Mullard (almost). The signal is too hot and can distort at normal to high volumes. However with lower gain tubes such as the RCA 6as7g or Svetlana Winged-C, and _some _6080s, it's a wonderful combination that I've already mentioned here. A true bargain and I highly recommend this setup as its very cost effective, you could potentially be in $20 for this combo and what an amazing cost to performance you are getting. Okay, so the sound isn't the most dynamic (like with a 6080 Mullard) but you are getting a fun, full impactful sound and is a favorite for electronic music. I prefer this tube with my Winged-C. The VT-163 brings out a lot of energy and pulls out the high-end from more laid back power tubes but you just maybe can't use your favorite power tubes.


_Tung-Sol VT-99 (6F8G) square mica, ladder plates:* $50-$200 each*, _I finally found a pair of these listed and pulled the trigger. These have ladder plates and a top square mica. It's a different construction and I'd love it if someone could comment on this. I will now need to find a round plate VT-99 to compare. I am going to start with the same RCA JAN-6as7g power tube for my comparison since it is compatible with both driver tubes and then jump with some other power tubes that I could not use with the VT-163. The VT-99 is more tame while using the RCA. I was never a big fan of the RCA 6as7g and think it applies a veil over the sound. This combo is not as thumpy or alive, the punchy fun is not as apparent. But it is more balanced and the high end frequencies are slightly clearer (more so on the Svetlana). Where as the VT-99 is more versatile, the VT-163 pairs better with the RCA or Svetlana. It gives them more energy on an otherwise pretty reserved sounding tube. However this combination, for me, was limiting to certain genres of music. The VT-99 delivers on more high end clarity than the VT-163 can and yet they both share a mid/high emphasis and an overall energetic feel.

Now to run the VT-99 with a Mullard 6080, 7236, 5998 and Bendix. I tend to think the 5998 sounds better with other drivers, such as the 6J5 and this is a good example. Although the detail retrieval is exceptional, the sound is slightly lean and the highs can become overpowering at high volumes. I had the best results while using the Bendix graphite plates. Although I do think the VT-99 matched with a good performing power tube delivers.. you may find better price/performance value elsewhere. I am a fan of the National Union VT-99.

_Conclusion_: I highly recommend the VT-163 paired with the Svetlana Winged-C (or RCA) for styles of music that utilize impact, thump, bass. It's a combination I stumbled upon that offers a unique synergy, try it out for yourself and let me know! The Tung-Sol VT-99 is a personal new favorite 6F8G for most styles as it offers a very detailed and energetic presentation. I recommend this to be in your collection.. however do so at a fair price. Also.. I now need to own the round plate version of the VT-99 in order to make more accurate comparisons. I honestly did not expect this until the tube arrived with ladder plates. If I had to take a guess, the round plates offer more mid range emphasis and the ladder bass, treble emphasis.

_More info_: 6F8G (VT-99) and 6C8G (VT-163) both supply Vf 6.3 Volts but have different amp ratings. The tubes do have slightly different structures which could be to achieve different resistances. How does this resistance difference translate to a higher gain on the VT-163?
_VT-99_: V = 6.3v, I = .6 amps, R = V / I, *R = 10.5 ohms*
_VT-163_: V = 6.3v, I = .3 amps, R = V / I, *R = 21 ohms*


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sheeez.  Angela has real ceramic ones for $1.79, but shipping is extra...
> 
> https://www.angela.com/ceramictopcapfor6j7andothertubes.aspx
> 
> ...


Well.. you guys are a lot of fun... I've forgotten what my cap looks like.. will have to dig that thing up and see... if it has a black I'm getting the white cap, if it has a white I'm getting the black cap...🙄 maybe.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 17, 2020)

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol VT-99 (6F8G) vs VT-163 (6C8G)*
> 
> My first impression of the 6F8G tube was a good one. I purchased an old worn National Union off eBay and preferred it over all of my other 6sn7s I owned at the time. This led me down the road of trying various 6F8Gs and their military counterparts, the VT-99. I have now owned and listened to most American versions, RCA, Raytheon, Sylvania, etc. and had always heard how the Tung-Sol VT-99 were_ creme de la creme,_ but had become very rare and expensive. These are my impressions on my modified Darkvoice, you may experience different results, especially on another amplifier.
> 
> ...



superb review and write up... I could not have done it better. well done. There seems to be a rise in Interest for these Tung Sols...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> ... if it has a black I'm getting the white cap, if it has a white I'm getting the black cap...🙄 maybe.



Something different is always better. Unless it isn't, of course.


----------



## JKDJedi

I got some (hopefully) decent tubes in yesterday. Gonna do some resoldering duties too them, getting close to good at it but not there yet, this will be my (5th attempt?) at doing a total resoldering job of removing old and inserting new kind of thing. I can see how terrible a job they did to it at the factory so not an exaggeration from BCOWEN and Paladin on how bad these can get coming in. Off tomorrow, might post pics of this as I go along the Californication of these ... 😁


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I got some (hopefully) decent tubes in yesterday. Gonna do some resoldering duties too them, getting close to good at it but not there yet, this will be my (5th attempt?) at doing a total resoldering job of removing old and inserting new kind of thing. I can see how terrible a job they did to it at the factory so not an exaggeration from BCOWEN and Paladin on how bad these can get coming in. Off tomorrow, might post pics of this as I go along the Californication of these ... 😁


Are these Melz or Fotons?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Are these Melz or Fotons?


I had to ask @bcowen about these guys .. they are "consumer" Melz. The 1578 tubes we read and talk about are special manufactured tubes (like the 5692) so hence the higher price tag on those. the difference is in the mica and plates construction (and possibly other materials).


----------



## therremans (Nov 17, 2020)

I wanted a closed back set and out of the two, I preferred the 770s sound. I am using these with Sonarworks set at a 75% blend (dry/wet).

*DT-770*

Slightly lower (sub) bass extension
More detailed lows
More detailed highs
Lighter weight, more comfortable
More musical, less bass fatigue
Before:



After:




*DT-1770 (A-Pads, pleather)*

Higher impact force
Wider soundstage
More solid build quality
Heavy weight
Removable cable
More fatiguing feel and sound
Tesla drivers sound strangled from the design
Before:



After:


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I had to ask @bcowen about these guys .. they are "consumer" Melz. The 1578 tubes we read and talk about are special manufactured tubes (like the 5692) so hence the higher price tag on those. the difference is in the mica and plates construction (and possibly other materials).



Yeah I know - the god tier Melz 1578 Perforated Anodes/Holed Plates commands those high prices.   My bad - come to think of it, I don't even think Foton has metal based tubes? Well we look forward to your review of the average joe Melz tube!


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I had to ask @bcowen about these guys .. they are "consumer" Melz. The 1578 tubes we read and talk about are special manufactured tubes (like the 5692) so hence the higher price tag on those. the difference is in the mica and plates construction (and possibly other materials).


Looking forward to your thoughts on those. I still have not gotten confident enough to find the proper melz. Even after Paladins advice, I am not quite sure what to bid on or the value of the various types as most look the similar.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Looking forward to your thoughts on those. I still have not gotten confident enough to find the proper melz. Even after Paladins advice, I am not quite sure what to bid on or the value of the various types as most look the similar.


1963 Melz 1578... get that one.  That one had a three week run on my amp... and tubes usually last maybe three days before I swap em.


----------



## therremans (Nov 17, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> 1963 Melz 1578... get that one.  That one had a three week run on my amp... and tubes usually last maybe three days before I swap em.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 17, 2020)

therremans said:


>


that one doesn't seem to have the right micas and brackets.... this... ---->
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...-/172487230235?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## therremans

It also has T plates I think.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It also has T plates I think.


The solid tplates are usually not found on 1578, it's rare, I'm getting one for evaluation soon, I'll get to compare that with what I have here, probably by Thursday. I have a guide I copied (a diagram) from a member here that points out what to look for in "real" Melz 1578 tubes.. (at home on my PC 😒) I'll post it up on my lunch break


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## bcowen (Nov 17, 2020)

That's not a 1578.  The true 1578 has the much longer metal spring mica supports up top, perforated plates, and rectangular micas (rather than oval).

I don't remember saying the non-1578 was a consumer grade tube (but I'm old ), but the true 1578's are certainly more robust and seemingly designed for the industrial and/or military market. Regular (non-1578's) still sound quite good, but not a big improvement to my ears over a '50's Foton that can be had for considerably less money. The 1578's are a good step up from the regular ones. And just when you think it's safe to go back in the water, @Paladin79 uncovers even another Melz version that has all the 1578 construction details _except_ the perforated plates.  If you can find one of those, snag it.

Edit:  @JKDJedi beat me to it.  I'm not only old, but obviously slow.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's not a 1578.  The true 1578 has the much longer metal spring mica supports up top, perforated plates, and rectangular micas (rather than oval).
> 
> I don't remember saying the non-1578 was a consumer grade tube (but I'm old ), but the true 1578's are certainly more robust and seemingly designed for the industrial and/or military market. Regular (non-1578's) still sound quite good, but not a big improvement to my ears over a '50's Foton that can be had for considerably less money. The 1578's are a good step up from the regular ones. And just when you think it's safe to go back in the water, @Paladin79 uncovers even another Melz version that has all the 1578 construction details _except_ the perforated plates.  If you can find one of those, snag it.
> 
> Edit:  @JKDJedi beat me to it.  I'm not only old, but obviously slow.


I just happened to take a photo of said tube for another thread.  A 1956 with solid plates. Once a couple more people have heard one, we will discuss the differences in sound between it and the 1578.


----------



## therremans (Nov 17, 2020)

I’m speaking with a Russian gentleman who says he can get the 1963 og melz. I’ll let you know what he comes back with tomorrow.



These arrived today and are the only other Sylvania gray plates that we have found. They are labeled made in Italy and have a completely different construction than the typical green leaf USA gray plates. Ladder plates and a open D getter with an almost hidden bottom flashing. I assume these were made for export in the late 50s or 60s. So far they sound great.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I’m speaking with a Russian gentleman who says he can get the 1963 og melz. I’ll let you know what he comes back with tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> These arrived today and are the only other Sylvania gray plates that we have found. They are labeled made in Italy and have a completely different construction than the typical green leaf USA gray plates. Ladder plates and a open D getter with an almost hidden bottom flashing. I assume these were made for export in the 60s. So far they sound great.


I have bought large quantities of 1963 Melz 1578’s with perforated plates but if he can get other types I would love to see photos.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



LOL!  _Loved_ that movie.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I have bought large quantities of 1963 Melz 1578’s with perforated plates but if he can get other types I would love to see photos.



I received this message. I’m assuming he doesn’t have them? Still waiting for his photos.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I received this message. I’m assuming he doesn’t have them? Still waiting for his photos.


The 1963 perforated plate sounds like what I bought a bunch of and they are indeed my favorite among the 1578's. I give a slight edge to the solid plate with same metal upper holders but they are extremely rare. I searched for six months to find three of them from 1958.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> The 1963 perforated plate sounds like what I bought a bunch of and they are indeed my favorite among the 1578's. I give a slight edge to the solid plate with same metal upper holders but they are extremely rare. I searched for six months to find three of them from 1958.


I won’t let him know how rare the solid plates with metal uppers are. What makes the 1963 sound preferred? Is there any indications that the tube is from 1963, let’s say if all of its labeling were removed? Or is the date stamp the only indicator.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I won’t let him know how rare the solid plates with metal uppers are. What makes the 1963 sound preferred? Is there any indications that the tube is from 1963, let’s say if all of its labeling were removed? Or is the date stamp the only indicator.


The date is in the lower right of the Melz logo. I own Melz 1578's from 50's to the 80's and the 1963 is my preference. The later tubes had a very pronounced midrange. The 63 IMHO has the best balance overall and the highs seem to have no limits. Mind you, I listen with Focal Utopias and I felt I was limited with things like the Senn hd6xx headphones.

A friend in Russia offered me a large group of NOS 1963's and I sent many out to friends at a reasonable price but held back several for myself. The 1956 tubes that seller has are nearly as good but at $159 each, they are very pricey. I know @JKDJedi can tell you about the 63 1578 in the DarkVoice.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> The date is in the lower right of the Melz logo. I own Melz 1578's from 50's to the 80's and the 1963 is my preference. The later tubes had a very pronounced midrange. The 63 IMHO has the best balance overall and the highs seem to have no limits. Mind you, I listen with Focal Utopias and I felt I was limited with things like the Senn hd6xx headphones.
> 
> A friend in Russia offered me a large group of NOS 1963's and I sent many out to friends at a reasonable price but held back several for myself. The 1956 tubes that seller has are nearly as good but at $159 each, they are very pricey. I know @JKDJedi can tell you about the 63 1578 in the DarkVoice.


Morning fellows!! you know...I have not rolled any Melz on the Darkvoice yet... sounding to good in the Incubus amp so never bothered. And @Paladin79 is correct about the 63' ... that's the one you want. The other 1578 I have is a (71') and it's a mid forward tube, not bad for v shaped tubes. I forgot about a 10am meeting this morning so my morning coffee roll will have to be out on hold.. 😒 Might just sneak one in anyways... 🙂


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

Until now that is... and we are live.... about to roll this thing . 

Melz 1578 (58' solid plated)


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

so day off (on call)... what do you do.... resoldering!! 😁 giving it the huge sleeves up try... little sloppy but I think I got most of it out.. just heat the pins till you see some bulbly going on and swooooop it up..


----------



## therremans

Nice clamp. The soldering pump @Paladin79 linked and solder have worked very well for today’s project.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Nice clamp. The soldering pump @Paladin79 linked and solder have worked very well for today’s project.


Perfect, you are nearly there on tube pin re-soldering.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Nice clamp. The soldering pump @Paladin79 linked and solder have worked very well for today’s project.


My bike stand...  multipurpose tool ..


----------



## therremans (Nov 18, 2020)

*Replaced the DV sockets today.*

It all went well and my Chinese tubes have not blown up. I actually feel more confident about the amp after the replacements and re-soldering. There were a few skimpy solder connections from factory. It was nice to use a high quality solder and do it all fresh again after I had been mucking about inside over the past year. New sockets are very snug and the solder lugs don’t wiggle around.


Before:



After:




Did you know you can discharge your capacitors to ground if you do this? Make sure the amp is unplugged, take two alligator clips and connect the two pins to ground on a 1/4” phono plug. Then plug it in for a minute. It worked as I didn’t get shocked and the rear caps sometimes used to get me.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> That's not a 1578.  The true 1578 has the much longer metal spring mica supports up top, perforated plates, and rectangular micas (rather than oval).
> 
> I don't remember saying the non-1578 was a consumer grade tube (but I'm old ), but the true 1578's are certainly more robust and seemingly designed for the industrial and/or military market. Regular (non-1578's) still sound quite good, but not a big improvement to my ears over a '50's Foton that can be had for considerably less money. The 1578's are a good step up from the regular ones. And just when you think it's safe to go back in the water, @Paladin79 uncovers even another Melz version that has all the 1578 construction details _except_ the perforated plates.  If you can find one of those, snag it.
> 
> Edit:  @JKDJedi beat me to it.  I'm not only old, but obviously slow.


So now I'm even more confused about the Melz... did they ONLY make 1578 tubes and the rest are really counterfeit 1578 tubes? Or ?? Or is the 6N8S the lesser of the two ?? I need enlightment..  What came first..1578 or the 6N8S? Did they mate and the byproduct turned out to be Fotons?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So now I'm even more confused about the Melz... did they ONLY make 1578 tubes and the rest are really counterfeit 1578 tubes? Or ?? Or is the 6N8S the lesser of the two ?? I need enlightment..  What came first..1578 or the 6N8S? Did they mate and the byproduct turned out to be Fotons?



The 1578 is basically a special version of the 6N8S.  Melz made both, and the Melz 6N8S is a lesser version of the Melz 1578.  I don't think Foton ever made a 1578, only a straight-up 6N8S. No sex involved, sad to say.    

Maybe think of it like a TungSol/Chatham 6AS7 versus a TungSol/Chatham 5998.  The domino plate 5998 is considered superior to the flat plate 6AS7.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Replaced the DV sockets today.*
> 
> It all went well and my Chinese tubes have not blown up. I actually feel more confident about the amp after the replacements and re-soldering. There were a few skimpy solder connections from factory. It was nice to use a high quality solder and do it all fresh again after I had been mucking about inside over the past year. New sockets are very snug and the solder lugs don’t wiggle around.
> 
> ...



Sweet!  Nice work in there!

I usually just discharge the caps with my finger.  Gets me electrified enough to proceed with the surgery.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The 1578 is basically a special version of the 6N8S.  Melz made both, and the Melz 6N8S is a lesser version of the Melz 1578.  I don't think Foton ever made a 1578, only a straight-up 6N8S. No sex involved, sad to say.
> 
> Maybe think of it like a TungSol/Chatham 6AS7 versus a TungSol/Chatham 5998.  The domino plate 5998 is considered superior to the flat plate 6AS7.


Within most any tube brand there are military versions as well as different models.
I also think that if a factory ran out of a specific plate the used what they had and this could explain a flat plate versus perforated. Plenty of flat plates on other models of the same time period with mylar top supports.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I also think that if a factory ran out of a specific plate the used what they had and this could explain a flat plate versus perforated.



As well, remember when and (especially) _where_ these were made. Factory workers were sent to the gallows for not producing, not for producing the wrong thing.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 20, 2020)

Great combo... the _Yamato_ is out ..


----------



## SHIMACM

I pulled the trigger. 2 GEC L63 and a Sylvania VT231. Which valves approach the sound of the Tung-Sol round cymbals in version 6j5?


----------



## therremans (Nov 20, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> I pulled the trigger. 2 GEC L63 and a Sylvania VT231. Which valves approach the sound of the Tung-Sol round cymbals in version 6j5?


Congrats did you buy a nos pair from Langrex? I know they are expensive and I’d probably argue that they weren’t worth the cash when compared to other bargains I’ve had (zenith/Sylvania 6j5s). But it’s nice having fresh nos and they pair well with most power tubes, like the mullard. They do sound great so it’s worth it. I bet the gec 6080 or 6as7g would also be great with them.

Are you referrring to the Tung-Sol Round plates? As found in some VT-231, VT-99, VT-163. If so, I don’t own any tubes that  compare to them. I’d recommend trying out a cheap VT-163 rp with an rca, svetlana but it will sound different than the VT99 ladder plate. I do love mine and will seek out the rp to compare.

Edit: The VT163 can run hot at high volume and makes it hard to recommend. It works with the mullard but I just tested it and although it’s not bad the distortion is there. A VT-99 rp can be had, if you can find it.

From what I have gathered, the round plates have a wonderful warm mid range. The ladder plates are more high range / clarity focused. But this could also just be my VT163 vs VT99. I would need to own the VT-231 (rp) and VT-99 (rp) to see how close they sound.

Tung-Sol VT-231 (round plates):


Tung-Sol VT-163 (round plates):


Tung-Sol VT-99 (round plates):


Tung-Sol VT-99 (ladder plates):


Tung-Sol 6J5G (ladder plates):


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I pulled the trigger. 2 GEC L63 and a Sylvania VT231. Which valves approach the sound of the Tung-Sol round cymbals in version 6j5?


In 6J5.. that's a tough one, Tung Sol BGRP has a distinct sound to them. And congrats on the GECs, did you get the adapter from Deyan?


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Congrats did you buy a nos pair from Langrex? I know they are expensive and I’d probably argue that they weren’t worth the cash when compared to other bargains I’ve had (zenith/Sylvania 6j5s). But it’s nice having fresh nos and they pair well with most power tubes, like the mullard. They do sound great so it’s worth it. I bet the gec 6080 or 6as7g would also be great with them.
> 
> Are you referrring to the Tung-Sol Round plates? As found in some VT-231, VT-99, VT-163. If so, I don’t own any tubes that  compare to them. I’d recommend trying out a cheap VT-163 rp with an rca, svetlana but it will sound different than the VT99 ladder plate. I do love mine and will seek out the rp to compare.
> 
> ...



I bought it from Langrex. As NOS are, the change in the imbalance of channels is very small.

Good to know that they work well with the Mullard 6080, since I have one.

My next purchase will be a GEC 6080, if I find it at a fair price.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I bought it from Langrex. As NOS are, the change in the imbalance of channels is very small.
> 
> Good to know that they work well with the Mullard 6080, since I have one.
> 
> My next purchase will be a GEC 6080, if I find it at a fair price.


but you have one already! your Mullard is a GEC 6080...


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> In 6J5.. that's a tough one, Tung Sol BGRP has a distinct sound to them. And congrats on the GECs, did you get the adapter from Deyan?



Deyan's adapter would cost 2x the price of the adapter from China. So I ended up buying the one from China. I did wrong?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> but you have one already! your Mullard is a GEC 6080...



I was just going to say that.  If there are any doubts, maybe gibosi could take a look and confirm...


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Deyan's adapter would cost 2x the price of the adapter from China. So I ended up buying the one from China. I did wrong?


you should be ok, I just had bad luck with them. Deyan adapter do take awhile to deliver but worth the grab. Well, looking forward to your impressions on the L63.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> but you have one already! your Mullard is a GEC 6080...



It is not. . According to the recent discoveries made on the topic of 6as7g mine is just a Mullard.


----------



## SHIMACM

The stem is made of copper and the upper mica is toothed. The GEC has a steel shaft and the upper mica is smooth.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> The stem is made of copper and the upper mica is toothed. The GEC has a steel shaft and the upper mica is smooth.


I just learned that too about the very top mica being a clear indicator...


----------



## therremans (Nov 20, 2020)

Here’s mine, looks similar.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Here’s mine, looks similar.



It's a Mullard.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Here’s mine, looks similar.


you guys have me looking for pics of mine now ..😂


----------



## JKDJedi

Mine only has the spiked micas on the two at the top.. 😐


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Mine only has the spiked micas on the two at the top.. 😐



Yours is also a Mullard.


----------



## therremans

I never heard back so I wrote. He just stopped trying to sell me a tube. 🧐


----------



## bcowen

Well since the CDC recommended against traveling and I can't go to Vegas, I figured I'd gamble on this. Seller states he sold it to a buyer who then returned it because he claimed one channel was at 50% of the volume level of the other.  Seller has no way to test it, so he re-advertised it as-is with no returns. So...

1) The tube has one worn out triode (unlikely)
2) The buyer got it, decided he didn't like it (for whatever reason), and lied about it so he could return it and get his money back (more likely than #1)
3) There is some other fault with the tube...like maybe pin solder?  Yes, the Fotons and Melz usually get the rap for bad pin solder, but I've had 2 Chathams, 2 Tung Sols, and even @JKDJedi 's Sylvania Bad Boy that all suffered from solder problems, and became quite good tubes after resoldering.

Maybe I'll get lucky and the pin resolder fixes it (assuming it's even bad to start with) and I get a $100 tube for $30.  Or maybe I just wasted $30.  I don't have a slotted graphite plate version yet, only one with solid plates.  Time will tell.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Well since the CDC recommended against traveling and I can't go to Vegas, I figured I'd gamble on this. Seller states he sold it to a buyer who then returned it because he claimed one channel was at 50% of the volume level of the other.  Seller has no way to test it, so he re-advertised it as-is with no returns. So...
> 
> 1) The tube has one worn out triode (unlikely)
> 2) The buyer got it, decided he didn't like it (for whatever reason), and lied about it so he could return it and get his money back (more likely than #1)
> ...


That’s the bendix I returned. I didn’t melt the pin solder down as I didn’t want to even risk toasting the $80 I bought it for.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Well since the CDC recommended against traveling and I can't go to Vegas, I figured I'd gamble on this. Seller states he sold it to a buyer who then returned it because he claimed one channel was at 50% of the volume level of the other.  Seller has no way to test it, so he re-advertised it as-is with no returns. So...
> 
> 1) The tube has one worn out triode (unlikely)
> 2) The buyer got it, decided he didn't like it (for whatever reason), and lied about it so he could return it and get his money back (more likely than #1)
> ...



I hope you get get lucky with this.  The tube itself looks like its in pristine condition too!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> That’s the bendix I returned. I didn’t melt the pin solder down as I didn’t want to even risk toasting the $80 I bought it for.



Aw, crap.  That's not the one with the cracked bottom mica I hope?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Aw, crap.  That's not the one with the cracked bottom mica I hope?


Nope that’s the Chatham that worked well but had the crack. I purchased both from the same seller and they had it listed as good working condition. Both had issues and I’m sending the Chatham with the cracked mica back today. They were really understanding though.

This tube is the one that got very hot and showed some blue on the plates when I turned it off off but the concern was the right channel was at a lower volume. Sorry man, hope it just needs some hot soldering iron.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I purchased both from the same seller and they had it listed as good working condition.



That's quite a claim being that now, the seller says there is no way for him to test the tubes....


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well since the CDC recommended against traveling and I can't go to Vegas, I figured I'd gamble on this. Seller states he sold it to a buyer who then returned it because he claimed one channel was at 50% of the volume level of the other.  Seller has no way to test it, so he re-advertised it as-is with no returns. So...
> 
> 1) The tube has one worn out triode (unlikely)
> 2) The buyer got it, decided he didn't like it (for whatever reason), and lied about it so he could return it and get his money back (more likely than #1)
> ...


I was just about to post about my experience (yesterday) with one of my slotted tubes... It's a little worn, and tests good, not great but good. You can see it's worn up, as if it was used extensively at very high temps. And when I'd use it it ran sorta of worn..not as punchy as the near mint conditioned red labeled Bendix tube I have tucked away.. I've gathered enough experience to notice (or think I have) a bad solder job, or even  (weathered soldered) that could cause (or add) to some problems.. think of bad tires on a rad sport car, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link kinda of thing. So I resoldered the thing..and what a freakn mess...solder everywhere.. dirty pins love solder folks..clean them well before doing so! So I filed away as much nasty crap away as I could.. cleaned her up and SHOVED in the Darkness...It's not comig out..I tried.. dam pins.. Dam soldering job.. BUT.... This tube now BANGS...SHE BAngs SHe BAngs....... And she Moves and Moves... oh...sorry.. back to earth... So Since this weekend is starting off with this Russian kinda theme for some.. I left my 6H8C tube in there (yes with resoldered pins, lot cleaner job o that one) and have to say.. this is a very nice combo as well. If you can find one of these guys for a low price grab one, and @bcowen If I saw that listing it would've been mine!! What a find!! EDIT: Opps..just read through the thread... well, hail marys can happen, if anybody can bring a dead tube to life it's @bcowen, he has a knack for that kind of stuff. The Great Houdini..


----------



## therremans

When removing and applying new solder, can you overheat the pins and potentially ruin the vacuum?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> When removing and applying new solder, can you overheat the pins and potentially ruin the vacuum?


I've read more horror story's of adding too much solder than of the heat. These guys get up to 350 degrees and up on their own right (when running normally).. so not to worried about the heat.


----------



## Brubacca

Getting my DV tomorrow. Any tips as I get started?  Should I start with the Factory tubes or just go for my replacements right away?  Do the newest units take time to settle in?  I think I read not to be concerned if I get hum initially.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 20, 2020)

therremans said:


> When removing and applying new solder, can you overheat the pins and potentially ruin the vacuum?



Theoretically, yes, although you'd melt the pins off the base before you'd heat the glass up enough to cause a leak. The lowest melting point of glass (depending on composition) is around 900 degrees, and most compositions are much higher than that (closer to 1400 degrees). You'd have to melt the glass to cause a leak.

As Jedi mentions, keeping excess solder off the outside of the pin has always been the challenge for me.  Cleaning the pin(s) well, applying some graphite around the bottom sides, and then using a thin diameter solder helps muchly in that regard.  I use a flat chisel bit on my iron at 750 degrees, and it's not on there long enough for heat to travel up the lead wire to the glass and maintain that 750 degrees, let alone 900 degrees.


----------



## bcowen

Brubacca said:


> Getting my DV tomorrow. Any tips as I get started?  Should I start with the Factory tubes or just go for my replacements right away?  Do the newest units take time to settle in?  I think I read not to be concerned if I get hum initially.



I'd use the stock tubes to break-in the amp some (20 hours or so), then shove 'em to the side and re-gift them to someone you hate for Christmas.


----------



## therremans (Nov 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Theoretically, yes, although you'd melt the pins off the base before you'd heat the glass up enough to cause a leak. The lowest melting point of glass (depending on composition) is around 900 degrees, and most compositions are much higher than that (closer to 1400 degrees). You'd have to melt the glass to cause a leak.
> 
> As Jedi mentions, keeping excess solder off the outside of the pin has always been the challenge for me.  Cleaning the pin(s) well, applying some graphite around the bottom sides, and then using a thin diameter solder helps muchly in that regard.  I use a flat chisel bit on my iron at 750 degrees, and it's not on there long enough for heat to travel up the lead wire to the glass and maintain that 750 degrees, let alone 900 degrees.


Okay that makes me feel a little better about my one Mullard. It was that pair I got labeled 8060, one of them started to glow a bright white after about ten minutes of use. But it still had a vacuum. I thought it would be a good tube to practice on and so I did. I was successful in removing the old solder with that new pump and replacing it. It went very well with the solder paladin recommended. The only issue I had was that it wanted to bubble out some but I eventually got it to stay in. (I thin I was using about 300-400 degrees to heat the pins enough to melt the old solder)

Powered it up.. it hardly had a glow to it and I slowly watched the silver fade into nothing and go clear. So it was toast once it went white maybe and my solder job was just for practice.

next time I’ll try the chisel tip and 750 degree.


----------



## therremans

Brubacca said:


> Getting my DV tomorrow. Any tips as I get started?  Should I start with the Factory tubes or just go for my replacements right away?  Do the newest units take time to settle in?  I think I read not to be concerned if I get hum initially.


I would first power it on with the stock tubes incase something was damaged during the journey from hong kong. If you ever think you'll do any mods to the amp, keep the tubes as test tubes. Otherwise, I wouldn't run them for long


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Okay that makes me feel a little better about my one Mullard. It was that pair I got labeled 8060, one of them started to glow a bright white after about ten minutes of use. But it still had a vacuum. I thought it would be a good tube to practice on and so I did. I was successful in removing the old solder with that new pump and replacing it. It went very well with the solder paladin recommended. The only issue I had was that it wanted to bubble out some but I eventually got it to stay in. (I thin I was using about 300-400 degrees to heat the pins enough to melt the old solder)
> 
> Powered it up.. it hardly had a glow to it and I slowly watched the silver fade into nothing and go clear. So it was toast once it went white maybe and my solder job was just for practice.
> 
> next time I’ll try the chisel tip and 750 degree.


well crap.. why did you practice on a Mullard? practice on GTE or Raytheon 6sn7 tubes but not Mullards.. 😐. Sorry for the loss, that white means loss of vacuum. It's dead.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> well crap.. why did you practice on a Mullard? practice on GTE or Raytheon 6sn7 tubes but not Mullards.. 😐. Sorry for the loss, that white means loss of vacuum. It's dead.


Why would it matter if its a shot tube anyway. I was attempting to fix its issue of glowing like a light bulb. I wouldn't have ran it that way.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Why would it matter if its a shot tube anyway. I was attempting to fix its issue of glowing like a light bulb. I wouldn't have ran it that way.


it was slowly going out then, well the good news is... you did a great job for the first time!! (that's what she said) 😁


----------



## therremans (Nov 20, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> it was slowly going out then, well the good news is... you did a great job for the first time!! (that's what she said) 😁


I should have powered it on after it glowed when I was testing it.. I did not though, so I'll never know if that was it's dying glow or it was related to the soldering. But bcowen makes me think it was gone anyways. I mean it was BRIGHT, i thought it was about to explode. I still got the one that is working very well. Remember I only paid about $20 each. I did have another $20 in shipping though. I would have been better off buying a nos from langrex since I still spent $60 for the one working mullard. However it was a risk I took. I now have the dual getter version at least.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I should have powered it on after it glowed when I was testing it.. I did not though, so I'll never know if that was it's dying glow or it was related to the soldering. But bcowen makes me think it was gone anyways. I still got the one that is working very well. Remember I only paid about $20 each. I did have another $20 in shipping though. I would have been better off buying a nos from langrex since I still spent $60 for the one working mullard. However it was a risk I took. I now have the dual getter version at least.


It happens. to all of us. no biggie. Watching this video about 6sn7 tubes thinking I know it all and the guy is telling me stuff I never knew! Like ..what does the GT stand for in 6SN7GT... ?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> It happens. to all of us. no biggie. Watching this video about 6sn7 tubes thinking I know it all and the guy is telling me stuff I never knew! Like ..what does the GT stand for in 6SN7GT... ?


Glass tube


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 20, 2020)

therremans said:


> Glass tube


yes!! Trip out in the Mullard 5692.... is it fake?


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> It happens. to all of us. no biggie. Watching this video about 6sn7 tubes thinking I know it all and the guy is telling me stuff I never knew! Like ..what does the GT stand for in 6SN7GT... ?



Lol. Doesn't "GT" mean "Glass Tubular"? A distinction for cylindrical shape tube vs just the "G" - glass envelope (coke bottle style)?   Although I did get confused as for 6SN7, all of them are in glass envelopes, and either short or tall.  Then I thought the T in GT meant Tall.  🤦‍♂️


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Okay that makes me feel a little better about my one Mullard. It was that pair I got labeled 8060, one of them started to glow a bright white after about ten minutes of use. But it still had a vacuum. I thought it would be a good tube to practice on and so I did. I was successful in removing the old solder with that new pump and replacing it. It went very well with the solder paladin recommended. The only issue I had was that it wanted to bubble out some but I eventually got it to stay in. (I thin I was using about 300-400 degrees to heat the pins enough to melt the old solder)
> 
> Powered it up.. it hardly had a glow to it and I slowly watched the silver fade into nothing and go clear. So it was toast once it went white maybe and my solder job was just for practice.
> 
> next time I’ll try the chisel tip and 750 degree.



I'm sorry to hear about your Mullard 8060.  At least you had the chops to try to give it a shot to resuscitate it   Were it in my hands, it would go straight into the trash can.  Much like one of my 10 dollar bargain 7N7 Frankies - filament just failed, no glow.  Dead as dead.  It lasted about a month of casual use, then nothing.


----------



## therremans

Out of all of my power tubes, the 5998 is the only one that makes pinging noises as the glass heats and cools. Has anyone else heard it?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> Out of all of my power tubes, the 5998 is the only one that makes pinging noises as the glass heats and cools. Has anyone else heard it?


I'm afraid to wear my headphones when warming up tubes.. sometimes I get a loud POP! (no matter which tube I put in) These guys are 100 years old so yeah, pings, farts, should be expected. So here's a random thought.. that RAtheon VT-99 you pointed me too... da     b o m b... with RCA   Chatham 6as7g


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Lol. Doesn't "GT" mean "Glass Tubular"? A distinction for cylindrical shape tube vs just the "G" - glass envelope (coke bottle style)?   Although I did get confused as for 6SN7, all of them are in glass envelopes, and either short or tall.  Then I thought the T in GT meant Tall.  🤦‍♂️


Probably right.. the guy in the vid had a hard on for them side getter GTE so what does he know..L MF A O .. and the Mullard 5692.. they looked like Fotons!


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I'm afraid to wear my headphones when warming up tubes.. sometimes I get a loud POP! (no matter which tube I put in) These guys are 100 years old so yeah, pings, farts, should be expected. So here's a random thought.. that RAtheon VT-99 you pointed me too... da     b o m b... with RCA 6as7g ..who would've thunked it.


Yes for me its only audible in person and not through the headphones. I will put that combo on later. side note, I bought the A2293s.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes for me its only audible in person and not through the headphones. I will put that combo on later. side note, I bought the A2293s.


Glass pings like that sometimes, like an old glass pot from the coffee maker. Dual A2293 in the power slot. let us know how it works out, I had bad luck with that. Long story..


----------



## therremans (Nov 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Glass pings like that sometimes, like an old glass pot from the coffee maker. Dual A2293 in the power slot. let us know how it works out, I had bad luck with that. Long story..


Yeah its common with glass but found it odd that it's the only tube I own that does it. @Deyan will hopefully make me another adapter for the A2293s to match the one he made for the 6j5s.

these are supposed to sound similar to a gec 6080 mixed with a 6as7g. i am determined to hear it on the darkvoice.. i think it will work out.


----------



## therremans (Nov 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


>


Well I guess now I know the VT-99 can have both styles of getters as mine is the open square and my regular model has the dimple foil square. I know from previously talking that your VT-99 has the dimpled square foil.

*VT-99:*


*Std:*


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I should have powered it on after it glowed when I was testing it.. I did not though, so I'll never know if that was it's dying glow or it was related to the soldering. But bcowen makes me think it was gone anyways. I mean it was BRIGHT, i thought it was about to explode. I still got the one that is working very well. Remember I only paid about $20 each. I did have another $20 in shipping though. I would have been better off buying a nos from langrex since I still spent $60 for the one working mullard. However it was a risk I took. I now have the dual getter version at least.



My Mullard shines like a lamp. Later I will put a picture of him access here.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Out of all of my power tubes, the 5998 is the only one that makes pinging noises as the glass heats and cools. Has anyone else heard it?



My Chatham 6as7g makes that noise when it gets hot and cold.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Okay that makes me feel a little better about my one Mullard. It was that pair I got labeled 8060, one of them started to glow a bright white after about ten minutes of use. But it still had a vacuum. I thought it would be a good tube to practice on and so I did. I was successful in removing the old solder with that new pump and replacing it. It went very well with the solder paladin recommended. The only issue I had was that it wanted to bubble out some but I eventually got it to stay in. (I thin I was using about 300-400 degrees to heat the pins enough to melt the old solder)
> 
> Powered it up.. it hardly had a glow to it and I slowly watched the silver fade into nothing and go clear. So it was toast once it went white maybe and my solder job was just for practice.
> 
> next time I’ll try the chisel tip and 750 degree.



Well bummer.  That bright white glow you saw _before_ re-soldering was a pretty good indication of oxygen contamination (from a vacuum leak). Just theorizing here, but short of  the glass being broken somewhere, that leak could only come from where the lead wires exit the bottom of the glass.  While heating the pins (within reason) shouldn't affect the glass seal on a good tube, if the seal was already compromised around one of those lead wires, perhaps the heat of soldering was enough to disturb it just enough more to cause a total loss of vacuum much more rapidly. 

Sorry about your lost tube, but on the bright side your pin soldering looks very nice!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Well I guess now I know the VT-99 can have both styles of getters as mine is the open square and my regular model has the dimple foil square. I know from previously talking that your VT-99 has the dimpled square foil.
> 
> *VT-99:*
> 
> ...


I don't know what I was on last night.. it wasn't the RCA I was rolling with it, it was the Chatham 6as7g.. laid back with some air depth with that combo, not as complete as the NU but still enjoyable.. If I find a square getter version might just grab it, for collectors. And hoping that dual GEc works out.. fingers crossed.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Well bummer.  That bright white glow you saw _before_ re-soldering was a pretty good indication of oxygen contamination (from a vacuum leak). Just theorizing here, but short of  the glass being broken somewhere, that leak could only come from where the lead wires exit the bottom of the glass.  While heating the pins (within reason) shouldn't affect the glass seal on a good tube, if the seal was already compromised around one of those lead wires, perhaps the heat of soldering was enough to disturb it just enough more to cause a total loss of vacuum much more rapidly.
> 
> Sorry about your lost tube, but on the bright side your pin soldering looks very nice!


Yeah that’s what I think too. it wasn’t just a brighter filament glow like what my RCA has. It was either the plate or filament looking bright white, so I assumed extreme temps and quickly shut it off. I have read that a white glow is due to oxygen but I didn’t remember fully. Soldering after that point likely just made it worse or did nothing at all


----------



## Brubacca

Got to be honest here. I find the stock tubes fairy good for my preferences. I'll take musical over sterile/detailed any day of the week.  I just got the amp and it I'll burn it in for a day then swap to my other set of tubes. I'm sure they are better, but I'll bet many find this very listenable. 

Using Sennheiser HD6XX.  Yeah if you own these headphones just buy the DV.  Great synergy here.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> My Mullard shines like a lamp. Later I will put a picture of him access here.



There's a big difference between a bright orange glow (which comes from the filaments) and a white glow, which indicates a much hotter temp on those filaments and is usually indicative of gas contamination (due to some degree of vacuum loss).  My Mullard 6080 glows very brightly too (much more so than any other 6080 I have), but it's a bright orange glow.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yeah that’s what I think too. it wasn’t just a brighter filament glow like what my RCA has. It was either the plate or filament looking bright white, so I assumed extreme temps and quickly shut it off. I have read that a white glow is due to oxygen but I didn’t remember fully. Soldering after that point likely just made it worse or did nothing at all


The sucker I'm using Is handy but gets stuck at the tip often with the old solder, might have to grab what you guys are using after all. I think I have one but it might be a rebranded one, will have to check, does the solder get stuck at the tip on what you guys are using?


----------



## JKDJedi

Brubacca said:


> Got to be honest here. I find the stock tubes fairy good for my preferences. I'll take musical over sterile/detailed any day of the week.  I just got the amp and it I'll burn it in for a day then swap to my other set of tubes. I'm sure they are better, but I'll bet many find this very listenable.
> 
> Using Sennheiser HD6XX.  Yeah if you own these headphones just buy the DV.  Great synergy here.


What are your other set of tubes, got pics?


----------



## bcowen (Nov 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> yes!! Trip out in the Mullard 5692.... is it fake?




LOL!  I seriously doubt Mullard ever made a 5692, and the tube pictured is NOT a 5692 (with additional support rods and micas) regardless of who made it.  The 5692 was a US designation initiated by RCA.  I have Sylvania branded 5692's that are identical internally to the RCA (so guess who made them), and CBS/Hytrons that are different than either of those.  Can't say for sure they were made by CBS/Hytron, but they don't appear to have been made by RCA.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The sucker I'm using Is handy but gets stuck at the tip often with the old solder, might have to grab what you guys are using after all. I think I have one but it might be a rebranded one, will have to check, does the solder get stuck at the tip on what you guys are using?



Not with the Soldapullt.  Resetting the plunger pushes all the old solder out.  I hate to say "I told you so," but I *did* tell you so.  LOL!!


----------



## therremans (Nov 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I don't know what I was on last night.. it wasn't the RCA I was rolling with it, it was the Chatham 6as7g.. laid back with some air depth with that combo, not as complete as the NU but still enjoyable.. If I find a square getter version might just grab it, for collectors. And hoping that dual GEc works out.. fingers crossed.


Haha yeah okay. I was running the RCA and the Raytheon and wasn’t so much feeling it. Now it makes sense. I wish I didn’t pass up on all of those $40 Chatham’s!! But soon enough I’ll find one again. I just refuse to pay $$$. I feel like one person manipulated the market. 

I’ll keep my eyes open for the open getter version and send it your way

Adapter ordered this am. Can’t wait to try them out in about 2-3 weeks,


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I feel like one person manipulated the market.



But since you're a gentleman you won't call out @JKDJedi by name?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> Haha yeah okay. I was running the RCA and the Raytheon and wasn’t so much feeling it. Now it makes sense. I wish I didn’t pass up on all of those $40 Chatham’s!! But soon enough I’ll find one again. I just refuse to pay $$$. I feel like one person manipulated the market.
> 
> I’ll keep my eyes open for the open getter version and send it your way
> 
> Adapter ordered this am. Can’t wait to try them out in about 2-3 weeks,


They did with the 5998 in the title..  and.. if anybody can sniff out a killer deal it's you my friend..I don't know how you do it! (I got mine for $30 delivered )


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yeah its common with glass but found it odd that it's the only tube I own that does it. @Deyan will hopefully make me another adapter for the A2293s to match the one he made for the 6j5s.
> 
> these are supposed to sound similar to a gec 6080 mixed with a 6as7g. i am determined to hear it on the darkvoice.. i think it will work out.



@therremans we will have to compare notes on this.  Deyan made me an adapter for the A2293s as well.  I just got my tubes in, waiting on the adapter.  we gotta let our pal shimacm know if this is a GO or not.  I can't ever see myself buying a GEC 6AS7G any time soon, so down the rabbit hole we go...


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The sucker I'm using Is handy but gets stuck at the tip often with the old solder, might have to grab what you guys are using after all. I think I have one but it might be a rebranded one, will have to check, does the solder get stuck at the tip on what you guys are using?


Is that the one with the silicone tip? I thought it was genius until I read these issues in the comments and abandoned ship, then paladin linked that one. Maybe you can return it to Amazon?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Is that the one with the silicone tip? I thought it was genius until I read these issues in the comments and abandoned ship, then paladin linked that one. Maybe you can return it to Amazon?


yes the silicone tip, I like the one handed use, and it has great suction power, just have to clear the solder form the tip often, if my iron was hotter I probably wouldnt have this hiccup. The solder solidifies on exit quickly, see if I can get a pic of the pieces I pulled out last night


----------



## Slade01

Brubacca said:


> Got to be honest here. I find the stock tubes fairy good for my preferences. I'll take musical over sterile/detailed any day of the week.  I just got the amp and it I'll burn it in for a day then swap to my other set of tubes. I'm sure they are better, but I'll bet many find this very listenable.
> 
> Using Sennheiser HD6XX.  Yeah if you own these headphones just buy the DV.  Great synergy here.



To be fair, the stocks sounded pretty solid in their on right.  As you explore with other tubes, you will find it only gets better.  My only qualms with the stock, (just my own experience with them) is that they didn't last long and crapped out on me.  And I had bought extra of those same stock tubes, only the same conclusion - its just cheap quality in my opinion.  Now if you try PSVANE tubes -- very very good Chinese made tubes where new production is concerned.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @therremans we will have to compare notes on this.  Deyan made me an adapter for the A2293s as well.  I just got my tubes in, waiting on the adapter.  we gotta let our pal shimacm know if this is a GO or not.  I can't ever see myself buying a GEC 6AS7G any time soon, so down the rabbit hole we go...


Yes friend exactly. One day we may be so lucky as to snag one at a good price. Or I’ll just get rich enough and buy everyone GECs. Let me know when you give yours the first listen.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> yes the silicone tip, I like the one handed use, and it has great suction power, just have to clear the solder form the tip often, if my iron was hotter I probably wouldnt have this hiccup. The solder solidifies on exit quickly, see if I can get a pic of the pieces I pulled out last night


Well you have a new soldering iron station on the way right? Also with as little soldering as we do it’s probably good, yeah? But, I’d return it if you want.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Out of all of my power tubes, the 5998 is the only one that makes pinging noises as the glass heats and cools. Has anyone else heard it?



Yup.  The Chatham 6AS7G's do it too.  But if you _really_ want to hear pinging, try a 300B.  Gets to be kind of enjoyable once the realization that it's normal replaces the initial panic.


----------



## therremans (Nov 21, 2020)

Brubacca said:


> Got to be honest here. I find the stock tubes fairy good for my preferences. I'll take musical over sterile/detailed any day of the week.  I just got the amp and it I'll burn it in for a day then swap to my other set of tubes. I'm sure they are better, but I'll bet many find this very listenable.
> 
> Using Sennheiser HD6XX.  Yeah if you own these headphones just buy the DV.  Great synergy here.


I agree with you on the musical over sterile/detailed. But you assume tube swapping is to achieve details? Some combinations also make things much more musical than the stock, with details. But running the stock tubes isn’t a bad thing or investing minimal $ in replacements is understandable.

also welcome to the club haha.  And my hd6xx still impress me. Good choice


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Well you have a new soldering iron station on the way right? Also with as little soldering as we do it’s probably good, yeah? But, I’d return it if you want.


I'm still sitting on the buy button..   What temps do you use when soldering? My iron is plug in play.


----------



## Brubacca

therremans said:


> I agree with you on the musical over sterile/detailed. But you assume tube swapping is to achieve details? Some combinations also make things much more musical than the stock, with details. But running the stock tubes isn’t a bad thing or investing minimal $ in replacements is understandable.
> 
> also welcome to the club haha.  And my hd6xx still impress me. Good choice


Sorry to sound like I meant swapping tubes was meant to make it sterile. I just meant that I would trade musical for accurate and sterile. I am little bit experienced with swapping tubes in my Rogue CM1 speaker amp. 

I quite tempted to just swap in my replacements now. I have a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB and a Winged "C" 6H13C.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I'm still sitting on the buy button..   What temps do you use when soldering? My iron is plug in play.


usually around 400 F


----------



## therremans

Brubacca said:


> Sorry to sound like I meant swapping tubes was meant to make it sterile. I just meant that I would trade musical for accurate and sterile. I am little bit experienced with swapping tubes in my Rogue CM1 speaker amp.
> 
> I quite tempted to just swap in my replacements now. I have a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB and a Winged "C" 6H13C.


Okay, yeah nice. I say go for it and let us know. Probably clearer highs and a better midrange response incoming.


----------



## bcowen

Just for reference, a real 5692 (this one a CBS/Hytron). The 5692 was a ruggedized (and supposedly longer life) version of a 6SN7 evidenced by the triple micas and a total of 5 support rods, albeit with a lower max plate voltage rating than a 6SN7GT.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Just for reference, a real 5692 (this one a CBS/Hytron). The 5692 was a ruggedized (and supposedly longer life) version of a 6SN7 evidenced by the triple micas and a total of 5 support rods, albeit with a lower max plate voltage rating than a 6SN7GT.


How does it sound?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> yes the silicone tip, I like the one handed use, and it has great suction power, just have to clear the solder form the tip often, if my iron was hotter I probably wouldnt have this hiccup. The solder solidifies on exit quickly, see if I can get a pic of the pieces I pulled out last night



The Soldapullt needs 2 hands to reset it, but works one-handed just fine when you push the suck button.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> The Soldapullt needs 2 hands to reset it, but works one-handed just fine when you push the suck button.


I use it one handed by pressing it against the cabinet to load it


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> How does it sound?



It was my go-to tube in Cary amps and preamps.  Didn't light my fire in the Schiit Lyr 3 or Vali 2.  Honestly haven't tried it in the DV or the Incubus.  Crap, one more thing to add to the list.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> usually around 400 F



I set my Weller at 750 for doing pins.  Haven't fried anything.....yet.  The faster you can get the heat on, melt the solder, and get the heat off the better IMO (within reason, of course...1000 degrees might be a bit much ).


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I set my Weller at 750 for doing pins.  Haven't fried anything.....yet.  The faster you can get the heat on, melt the solder, and get the heat off the better IMO (within reason, of course...1000 degrees might be a bit much ).


I’ll try a higher temp for the next pin job. I see your logic here for de-soldering as the shortest amount of time the better. I’d also note that using a liquid flux would be a good idea? I always use a flux dispensing pen. Now is it recommended for pins?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I’ll try a higher temp for the next pin job. I see your logic here for de-soldering as the shortest amount of time the better. I’d also note that using a liquid flux would be a good idea? I always use a flux dispensing pen. Now is it recommended for pins?



If I'm being lazy and just doing a reheat and adding a bit of solder I don't mess with the flux.  If I'm doing a proper 'good audiophile' suck'n'resolder, I add a little flux just to help clean out the internals (being careful to wipe any excess off the _outside_ of the pin before heating it). I like this paste flux just 'cause it's easy to dispense and easy to control where it goes, and the tip on this particular one is exactly the same diameter as an octal tube pin.    But any good flux would serve the same purpose.

https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...ywords=mg+chemical+flux&qid=1605983192&sr=8-5


----------



## bcowen

Here's an age test:  how many of you know what an ignition point file is?  Some of us already know because, yes, we're_* that*_ old.   More importantly, this file works great for filing off any excess solder you may get on the outside of the pin. Narrow and thin enough to get between the pins easily.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0067YFPBC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Brubacca (Nov 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> Okay, yeah nice. I say go for it and let us know. Probably clearer highs and a better midrange response incoming.


So I did it. Massive hum in both channels. I can't listen to it because of the hum.  I'm not freaking out though. It seems the hum should get less after a day or two. I would say definitely better with the new tubes, but the hummmmm. Has to go away.
Here are my 2 tube amps#


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> How does it sound?


Add it up there with the Mount Rushmore of tubes..


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Here's an age test:  how many of you know what an ignition point file is?  Some of us already know because, yes, we're_* that*_ old.   More importantly, this file works great for filing off any excess solder you may get on the outside of the pin. Narrow and thin enough to get between the pins easily.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0067YFPBC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Have something similar to that in chi fi form.. and now I'm really thinking of getting in an updated iron, the flux I use ( only when pins don't heat up quick enough) was recommended by @Paladin79 , the solder used for the pins I think has enough (flux) in it for this use imo. Check out the solder pulled out of the pins last night, they seem to be fully intact.. thinking 750 degrees might be the ticket.


----------



## JKDJedi

Brubacca said:


> So I did it. Massive hum in both channels. I can't listen to it because of the hum.  I'm not freaking out though. It seems the hum should get less after a day or two. I would say definitely better with the new tubes, but the hummmmm. Has to go away.
> Here are my 2 tube amps#


Them "new" Tung Sol 6sn7gtb tubes are notorious for hum. Let it bake for a few days (without the power tube inserted) should help. This from the Tube Store..

1. Power off the amp and remove the 6AS7/6H13C power tube.  This will  keep the unit from over heating during this burn-in procedure.

2. Install your new 6SN7 tube and power the amp on again.

3.  Wait.  And keep waiting.  We find that by approximately 72 hours will do.

4.  Power off and re-install the 6AS7/6H13C power tube.

5.  Connect your favorite headphones and power the amp on.

You should find the hum in the left channel has completely disappeared.  At the least you’ll notice it’s much quieter and likely only need one more day to get it completely quiet.

I realize you can modify the amplifier and add a couple capacitors to solve this but the instructions above will “fix” it for  free so give it a try.

https://blog.thetubestore.com/burning-in-6sn7-tubes-for-the-dark-voice-336se-headphone-amp/


----------



## Brubacca

JKDJedi said:


> Them "new" Tung Sol 6sn7gtb tubes are notorious for hum. Let it bake for a few days (without the power tube inserted) should help. This from the Tube Store..
> 
> 1. Power off the amp and remove the 6AS7/6H13C power tube.  This will  keep the unit from over heating during this burn-in procedure.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  That's where I bought the tubes from!  I will do that right now. Not sure how I missed that.


----------



## therremans

Yeah sorry I didn’t mention that, it’s brought up often. That was my first tube myself with an RCA. The hum was there I think in my left channel only. The bake for me I think took about 12 hours or so and the tube was silent. Just check back once in awhile


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Have something similar to that in chi fi form.. and now I'm really thinking of getting in an updated iron, the flux I use ( only when pins don't heat up quick enough) was recommended by @Paladin79 , the solder used for the pins I think has enough (flux) in it for this use imo. Check out the solder pulled out of the pins last night, they seem to be fully intact.. thinking 750 degrees might be the ticket.
> 
> [/QUOTE



I am trying to follow what you are saying here. Adding flux causes the pins to heat up faster? Flux cleans the metal to allow solder to adhere. 

Looking at solder I remove from pins tells me absolutely nothing and I have been doing this a long time lol.

It is very difficult to see inside the pins so I take no chances, since the original solder failed. It is true there is flux inside new solder but at times, like dealing with some new connectors, you have to apply a lot of heat to get the solder to adhere with just the flux but that is out in the open where you can see it lol. You cannot see the condition of the inside of the pin nor the wire extending down from the tube. It is entirely possible to surround that wire with solder and still have a poor connection because it is not clean enough to allow for a good solder joint. I personally use 800 degree tips and always use liquid flux inside pins that can be 50 years old.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying to follow what you are saying here. Adding flux causes the pins to heat up faster? Flux cleans the metal to allow solder to adhere.
> 
> Looking at solder I remove from pins tells me absolutely nothing and I have been doing this a long time lol.
> 
> It is very difficult to see inside the pins so I take no chances, since the original solder failed. It is true there is flux inside new solder but at times, like dealing with some new connectors, you have to apply a lot of heat to get the solder to adhere with just the flux but that is out in the open where you can see it lol. You cannot see the condition of the inside of the pin nor the wire extending down from the tube. It is entirely possible to surround that wire with solder and still have a poor connection because it is not clean enough to allow for a good solder joint. I personally use 800 degree tips and always use liquid flux inside pins that can be 50 years old.


there's solder at the very bottom of the pins, I can see them without aid of glasses. if they look suspect, cracked dark grey, med grey, not silver... uneven... partially missing... then I resolder it if I'm not lazy that day...(which is often ) and I was having trouble with one pin last night.. did not want to heat at all... my iron tip might be going out, so I dabbed some flux in there....it heated quick. That's my experience.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> there's solder at the very bottom of the pins, I can see them without aid of glasses. if they look suspect, cracked dark grey, med grey, not silver... uneven... partially missing... then I resolder it if I'm not lazy that day...(which is often ) and I was having trouble with one pin last night.. did not want to heat at all... my iron tip might be going out, so I dabbed some flux in there....it heated quick. That's my experience.


yes one can normally see solder at the bottom of the pin, I best leave this conversation, take care.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 21, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> yes one can normally see solder at the bottom of the pin, I best leave this conversation, take care.


.. was it something I said.. 😐


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Have something similar to that in chi fi form.. and now I'm really thinking of getting in an updated iron, the flux I use ( only when pins don't heat up quick enough) was recommended by @Paladin79 , the solder used for the pins I think has enough (flux) in it for this use imo. Check out the solder pulled out of the pins last night, they seem to be fully intact.. thinking 750 degrees might be the ticket.



Aw, man.  Get rid of that PlaySkool soldering iron and get a real one:  

https://www.amazon.com/Weller-WE101...&qid=1606001657&sprefix=weller,aps,165&sr=8-5

While you're at it, get a chisel tip for it to do octal pins (and DO NOT cheap out on the Chinese junk...get a real Weller tip):

https://www.amazon.com/KD-Tools-ETD...s=weller+we1010na+tips&qid=1606001862&sr=8-34

Hakko's are good too, but I've had my Weller for 25+ years and haven't even had to replace the iron at this point (although it's nearing that point)..  

https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FX888D...dchild=1&keywords=hakko&qid=1606002373&sr=8-1


----------



## bcowen

Brubacca said:


> Thanks.  That's where I bought the tubes from!  I will do that right now. Not sure how I missed that.



In addition, one thing that's easy to check (and fix if needed) is the earth ground connection from the IEC socket to the amp chassis.  I had a low level hum with the Chinese tubes when I first got mine (not loud, but audible), and once I scraped the paint and got a good ground connection the majority of that hum went away.  All was good after that....until I stuck in a Foton 6N8S, and the DV hummed like crazy.  The Fitz mod fixed that problem, but why it was SO loud only with the Fotons (3 different ones) I'm at a loss to explain. Didn't do it with the Melz...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying to follow what you are saying here. Adding flux causes the pins to heat up faster? Flux cleans the metal to allow solder to adhere.
> 
> Looking at solder I remove from pins tells me absolutely nothing and I have been doing this a long time lol.
> 
> It is very difficult to see inside the pins so I take no chances, since the original solder failed. It is true there is flux inside new solder but at times, like dealing with some new connectors, you have to apply a lot of heat to get the solder to adhere with just the flux but that is out in the open where you can see it lol. You cannot see the condition of the inside of the pin nor the wire extending down from the tube. It is entirely possible to surround that wire with solder and still have a poor connection because it is not clean enough to allow for a good solder joint. I personally use 800 degree tips and always use liquid flux inside pins that can be 50 years old.



You're using 50 year-old flux?  Dang, man.  At least now I know what to get you for Christmas.


----------



## piotrgt (Nov 22, 2020)

So much content!
What is the best set of tubes which are considered to the bang for the buck?
Also, do they play better than stock? By how much?
I will be listinging to them on my beyerdynamic dt 990 250ohm


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You're using 50 year-old flux?  Dang, man.  At least now I know what to get you for Christmas.


Learn to read lol. Most of these tubes are 50 years old or more. To say solder looks good when you cannot truly see inside the pins makes no sense, and as I proved to you with Fotons it is the solder that is the issue, not tubes that needed to warm up for 100 hours. I also pointed out that you can surround a wire with solder but still have a poor connection if the solder does not adhere properly.

You have some options in this situation, you can reflow what is there, you can remove the solder and hope for the best with the amount of flux that is inside new solder, or you can try to do a proper cleaning then add new solder.

The first couple options might get you by for a few years or even less with just reflowing the solder. I have given my son tube amps and many of the tubes I own will go on to him and I prefer they are in good condition.


----------



## bcowen

piotrgt said:


> So much content!
> What is the best set of tubes which are considered to the bang for the buck?
> Also, are they play better than stock? By how much?
> I will be listinging to them on my beyerdynamic dt 990 250ohm



Which color is best for a car?

Most sets are better than stock by 11.0163664%.


----------



## piotrgt

bcowen said:


> Most sets are better than stock by 11.0163664%.



I have watched a bit more reviews and people said that there are many which are noticable better... 
So 11%? That's almost nothing.
To me better is 25%


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Learn to read lol. Most of these tubes are 50 years old or more. To say solder looks good when you cannot truly see inside the pins makes no sense, and as I proved to you with Fotons it is the solder that is the issue, not tubes that needed to warm up for 100 hours. I also pointed out that you can surround a wire with solder but still have a poor connection if the solder does not adhere properly.
> 
> You have some options in this situation, you can reflow what is there, you can remove the solder and hope for the best with the amount of flux that is inside new solder, or you can try to do a proper cleaning then add new solder.
> 
> The first couple options might get you by for a few years or even less with just reflowing the solder. I have given my son tube amps and many of the tubes I own will go on to him and I prefer they are in good condition.



First I have to learn how to solder tube pins (even at my age), and now I have to learn how to read _*too*_? Damnit. Maybe time for me to switch to an easier hobby, like rebuilding nuclear reactors or something.


----------



## bcowen

piotrgt said:


> I have watched a bit more reviews and people said that there are many which are noticable better...
> So 11%? That's almost nothing.
> To me better is 25%



11% is better to 31.47% of the people...


----------



## piotrgt

bcowen said:


> 11% is better to 31.47% of the people...



And for the remaining 68.53% its the same or worse.


----------



## therremans

I’m in the 33.33% camp who hears a 13.99% improvement.


----------



## piotrgt

therremans said:


> I’m in the 33.33% camp who hears a 13.99% improvement.



How much do you need to spend to hear that 11%?


----------



## therremans (Nov 22, 2020)

Third time is a charm, I think. This Chatham from 1960 isn’t damaged and tests well at 90/90 %. My previous one with a cracked mica was 1965. I also notice the 1965 has thinner micas

side note: does anyone have an extra tube tester laying around they are willing to part ways with?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Which color is best for a car?



Red, duh.


----------



## JKDJedi

piotrgt said:


> And for the remaining 68.53% its the same or worse.


welcome to the hobby


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Red, duh.





piotrgt said:


> So much content!
> What is the best set of tubes which are considered to the bang for the buck?
> Also, do they play better than stock? By how much?
> I will be listinging to them on my beyerdynamic dt 990 250ohm


There's so much out there, and *ANYTHING* is better than stock.. (_except GE tubes..do not get GE_) I suggest grabbing a beer or two and going back 50 pages and start reading.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Third time is a charm, I think. This Chatham from 1960 isn’t damaged and tests well at 90/90 %. My previous one with a cracked mica was 1965. I also notice the 1965 has thinner micas
> 
> side note: does anyone have an extra tube tester laying around they are willing to part ways with?


Bendix stopped manufacturing in 1964 so interesting that the 1965 does have the thinner micas, love the sound of these guys, mine might stay put for a bit.


----------



## therremans (Nov 22, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Bendix stopped manufacturing in 1964 so interesting that the 1965 does have the thinner micas, love the sound of these guys, mine might stay put for a bit.


Hmm maybe I should know my date codes better before speaking but, “6529” I thought was 29th week of 1965. The new arrival is marked “6038”. Perhaps they were using leftover parts in 65’ and the thinner ceramic micas were not first choice. Who knows..


----------



## JKDJedi

[


bcowen said:


> First I have to learn how to solder tube pins (even at my age), and now I have to learn how to read _*too*_? Damnit. Maybe time for me to switch to an easier hobby, like rebuilding nuclear reactors or something.


Just because somebody is having a bad day doesn't mean you have too.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Hmm maybe I should know my date codes better before speaking but, “6529” I thought was 29th week of 1965. The new arrival is marked “6038”.


It's right, just literature states Bendix stopped manufacturing in 1964. And if that's true (---->IF <----) then I'm wondering...who built that Chatham? The thinner micas add some fuel to my question.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Third time is a charm, I think. This Chatham from 1960 isn’t damaged and tests well at 90/90 %. My previous one with a cracked mica was 1965. I also notice the 1965 has thinner micas
> 
> side note: does anyone have an extra tube tester laying around they are willing to part ways with?



I have a Hickok 752, an 800A, and a Weston 981 Type 3 sitting here just waiting for some love. The 752 has been restored except I'm not getting any meter movement on the GM test. It's not the meter -- pretty sure it's the main test selector control. Have a donor unit here for an organ transplant, just lacking the motivation to swap the controls out.    The 800A is in good shape mechanically, but haven't finished up the case yet.  And the Weston hasn't even been looked at, although I already purchased the capacitor set for it.  Sigh.  Seems to be so much to do when you aren't working.  LOL!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I have a Hickok 752, an 800A, and a Weston 981 Type 3 sitting here just waiting for some love. The 752 has been restored except I'm not getting any meter movement on the GM test. It's not the meter -- pretty sure it's the main test selector control. Have a donor unit here for an organ transplant, just lacking the motivation to swap the controls out.    The 800A is in good shape mechanically, but haven't finished up the case yet.  And the Weston hasn't even been looked at, although I already purchased the capacitor set for it.  Sigh.  Seems to be so much to do when you aren't working.  LOL!


Nice! I wish I had the space for a workbench or even a basement or garage. Then I could attempt to restore a unit and try to calibrate it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> ...then I'm wondering...who built that Chatham?



The 4 guys that were left at the factory to assemble whatever they could from leftover parts, and then shut the place down.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nice! I wish I had the space for a workbench or even a basement or garage. Then I could attempt to restore a unit and try to calibrate it.



LOL!  My workspace is in a spare bedroom, if you can even call it that.  It's more about the size of a closet, except it actually has a closet and is therefore technically a bedroom.


----------



## therremans

That explains why it was a 


bcowen said:


> The 4 guys that were left at the factory to assemble whatever they could from leftover parts, and then shut the place down.


Ah yes, that’s why communion wafers were used.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

JKDJedi said:


> There's so much out there, and *ANYTHING* is better than stock.. (_except GE tubes..do not get GE_) I suggest grabbing a beer or two and going back 50 pages and start reading.


How come he doesn't have to start at the beginning?!?!


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 22, 2020)

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> How come he doesn't have to start at the beginning?!?!


Start from page one and grab a side getter GE for beginners!!    Joking but..not joking.. Here's an old pic of one of my first ever tube rolling experiances.... many moons ago.. (two GE's and a Darkvoicce...OH MY!!) L M F A O ..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Start from page one and grab a side getter GE for beginners!!    Joking but..not joking.. Here's an old pic of one of my first ever tube rolling experiances.... many moons ago.. (two GE's and a Darkvoicce...OH MY!!) L M F A O ..


The glow on that GE power tube looks like some out of control reactor core.  Damn.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Start from page one and grab a side getter GE for beginners!!    Joking but..not joking.. Here's an old pic of one of my first ever tube rolling experiances.... many moons ago.. (two GE's and a Darkvoicce...OH MY!!) L M F A O ..



I _will _say I'm extremely impressed you survived that. Lesser men would have sold the DV immediately and bought a solid state amp.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I _will _say I'm extremely impressed you survived that. Lesser men would have sold the DV immediately and bought a solid state amp.


😂😂😂😂 I thought I was King Tube Dude that week.


----------



## therremans

For anyone looking to try out the Sylvania 6J5GTs (link) - NOS pairs, appears to be gray plates. (you can find used ones for cheaper.)


----------



## piotrgt

Just curious what is the longevity of this amp? One guy can sell me a 3 old one. He says it was barely used, and yet I see a guitar in the background.
What would be a fair price for it, assuming he paid 220USD for it? Also, is it a good idea to buy a second-hand amp (might have to replace tubes right away for it).


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> For anyone looking to try out the Sylvania 6J5GTs (link) - NOS pairs, appears to be gray plates. (you can find used ones for cheaper.)



I may about to say something sacrilege, but I am liking the cheap metal tubes better.  Was rolling both the Sylvania 6J5GTs and these Philco Metal 6J5.   They Sylvanias are solid all around tubes:  they are non fatiguing and do everything solid (nothing that particularly stands out).  But to me that strength is its weakness:   they sound boring when compared to these metal tubes - which sound more alive and musical (nice sub bass delivery also).  YMMV as always but - don't underestimate these cheapy metal tubes.  LOL.


----------



## Slade01

piotrgt said:


> Just curious what is the longevity of this amp? One guy can sell me a 3 old one. He says it was barely used, and yet I see a guitar in the background.
> What would be a fair price for it, assuming he paid 220USD for it? Also, is it a good idea to buy a second-hand amp (might have to replace tubes right away for it).



Guitar should have little bearing as Darkvoice is a headphone amp.  *My Opinion*  -- Three years old - i would say 150 dollars, and figure you will have to pay 20-25 for shipping due to weight  unless you are picking it up local.  

On head-fi, amps and gears are sold daily - at least here people seem to really take care of their gear.  I have bought second-hand amps and have had no issues - barely used as advertised in my cases.  

If you are buying a tube amp, you will most certainly at one point buy another set of tubes for it if only out of curiosity (or want of a different sound) or to have a spare set if your tubes happen to stop working.


----------



## therremans

piotrgt said:


> Just curious what is the longevity of this amp? One guy can sell me a 3 old one. He says it was barely used, and yet I see a guitar in the background.
> What would be a fair price for it, assuming he paid 220USD for it? Also, is it a good idea to buy a second-hand amp (might have to replace tubes right away for it).


Yes good guitar amplifier as I play guitar through mine as well (famous) and I am not to be trusted as I am b'crupted. what is longevity of anything? it is unknown but this amp i know it is 3 years or so simply do not buy it is not to be used ever again.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 23, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I may about to say something sacrilege, but I am liking the cheap metal tubes better.  Was rolling both the Sylvania 6J5GTs and these Philco Metal 6J5.   They Sylvanias are solid all around tubes:  they are non fatiguing and do everything solid (nothing that particularly stands out).  But to me that strength is its weakness:   they sound boring when compared to these metal tubes - which sound more alive and musical (nice sub bass delivery also).  YMMV as always but - don't underestimate these cheapy metal tubes.  LOL.


My first date with metal tubes were not good (tung sol 6j5) but I've been hearing a lot of good things about these (other) guys. should I give them another chance? (Particularly the 6C5 tin cans but maybe I should try another batch of 6j5 instead). Edit: well you guys twistedmy arm again.. giving another set of cheap tin cans a spin, see how this batch sounds like when they get here.  (RCA)


----------



## therremans (Nov 23, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I may about to say something sacrilege, but I am liking the cheap metal tubes better.  Was rolling both the Sylvania 6J5GTs and these Philco Metal 6J5.   They Sylvanias are solid all around tubes:  they are non fatiguing and do everything solid (nothing that particularly stands out).  But to me that strength is its weakness:   they sound boring when compared to these metal tubes - which sound more alive and musical (nice sub bass delivery also).  YMMV as always but - don't underestimate these cheapy metal tubes.  LOL.


I believe you, an opinion in audio should never be considered sacrilege. The endless combinations with power tubes, tube manufacturers variances, headphones, amp modifications, the music choice used, preferences, etc. You are always bound to find something unexpecting or goes against someone's opinion.

The only metal cans I own are the Tung-Sol 6C5s, they are nice too.. balanced, *neutral*, warm but quite solid-state sounding, Definitely more “meh” than my Sylvania's or almost any tubes I own and the reason why my 6c5s just don't get used. They aren’t bad they just aren’t as exciting or moving.


I had read somewhere that the 6J5s didn't sound as good as the 6C5 and avoided them when trying out the metal tubes. Clearly a blanket statement made by someone who knew everything there was to know. I will look for these Philco's to try out, (I think they look cool!).

Yeah the Sylvanias are all around balanced but quite punchy in the midrange, without being on the slow side... balanced yet powerful... I love their sound. However, again it very much depends on the power tube. They don't really lack anything.

But a question, do you own the gray or black plate version? I really preferred the gray plates and never put the black plates back in.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> I believe you, an opinion in audio should never be considered sacrilege. The endless combinations with power tubes, tube manufacturers variances, headphones, amp modifications, the music choice used, preferences, etc. You are always bound to find something unexpecting or goes against someone's opinion.
> 
> The only metal cans I own are the Tung-Sol 6C5s, they are nice too.. balanced, *neutral*, warm but quite solid-state sounding, Definitely more “meh” than my Sylvania's or almost any tubes I own and the reason why my 6c5s just don't get used. They aren’t bad they just aren’t as exciting or moving.
> 
> ...


Right now it's hard for me to imagine tin cans as musical or anything pleasant for the long listen, could be just my pair, and yup read the same that 6C5 are the ones to look for but @Slade01 here may have found the pair to look for! Philco (Sylvania?) 6J5. 🙂
and I have yet had a chance to A n B the Sylvania 6J5GT regular black plates against the military ones, might do that when the RCA get in.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I believe you, an opinion in audio should never be considered sacrilege. The endless combinations with power tubes, tube manufacturers variances, headphones, amp modifications, the music choice used, preferences, etc. You are always bound to find something unexpecting or goes against someone's opinion.
> 
> The only metal cans I own are the Tung-Sol 6C5s, they are nice too.. balanced, *neutral*, warm but quite solid-state sounding, Definitely more “meh” than my Sylvania's or almost any tubes I own and the reason why my 6c5s just don't get used. They aren’t bad they just aren’t as exciting or moving.
> 
> ...



I have the gray plate version.   And ironically, I wonder if these Philco Metal Tubes are also Sylvania.  I have yet to figure out the codes on these tubes.  
You're right about the power tubes.  Normally, i'd switch to a 7236 (running a GB-6080 at the moment), but I don't have the 7236 tubes anymore.  I guess its time for me to pony up for that 5998 and call it a day.....


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I have the gray plate version.   And ironically, I wonder if these Philco Metal Tubes are also Sylvania.  I have yet to figure out the codes on these tubes.
> You're right about the power tubes.  Normally, i'd switch to a 7236 (running a GB-6080 at the moment), but I don't have the 7236 tubes anymore.  I guess its time for me to pony up for that 5998 and call it a day.....


it is your destiny....


----------



## therremans (Nov 23, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I have the gray plate version.   And ironically, I wonder if these Philco Metal Tubes are also Sylvania.  I have yet to figure out the codes on these tubes.
> You're right about the power tubes.  Normally, i'd switch to a 7236 (running a GB-6080 at the moment), but I don't have the 7236 tubes anymore.  I guess its time for me to pony up for that 5998 and call it a day.....


Ah that could be the problem. I do think the Sylvania’s pair best with the 5998 or 7236, sorry to say.  Just not as good of a match with a mullard. And I am not someone who usually prefers the 5998 with all of my tubes.

However if the output tube is more mid-focused, it balances out well and the 5998 or 7236 gives the Sylvania’s an edge and clears up the midrange, gives a clearer low and high end. 7236 speeds things up but the 5998 has more low end. Just like you’d expect. They pair very well with either.. However, they also sound great with the Bendix graphite plates.

Edit: If you want a more detailed a low end, try to get a graphite 6080 over the 5998. I’ve been more about the bass in the last couple months and have been using my 5998/7236 much less. 







JKDJedi said:


> And I have yet had a chance to A n B the Sylvania 6J5GT regular black plates against the military ones, might do that when the RCA get in.


Please do today if you can.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> My first date with metal tubes were not good (tung sol 6j5) but I've been hearing a lot of good things about these (other) guys. should I give them another chance? (Particularly the 6C5 tin cans but maybe I should try another batch of 6j5 instead). Edit: well you guys twistedmy arm again.. giving another set of cheap tin cans a spin, see how this batch sounds like when they get here.  (RCA)



These KenRad 6C5's sound quite nice.  I've been thinking about mounting an orange LED behind them so they glow.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I've been thinking about mounting an orange LED behind them so they glow.


----------



## NickLong2112

I just ordered the DV 336se! I'm using Beyerdynamic DT1990s with both balanced and analytical pads. I'm starting my tube collection journey. Right now, I just picked up a NOS RCA Black Plate 6as7g and NOS GE 6sn7gtb. And am also looking online for NOS Tung-Sol 5998/7236 an NOS Tung Sol 6sn7s.

I picked up a GE 6sn7gtb because it was my clear favorite preamp tube I heard on Zeos's Darkvoice Tube rolling video. It was bright, lively, forward and full punchy bass, yet smooth and not strident. 

Does anybody recommend some solid Power tube pairings with this GE 6sn7gtb? I picked up the Rca 6as7g black plate (which seems to be a solid starting power tube), but am willing to take suggestions on other tubes to try. I'm worried that this pairing might be too bright given some other comments about the Rca 6as7g being a bright wide and lively tube, wheres some say it's a balanced to even warm sounding tube.

Overall, I'm looking for an output that isn't too dark maybe a little dark, but is punchy and lively and engaging, I do tend to like treble bite as long as it's not strident.


----------



## JKDJedi

NickLong2112 said:


> I just ordered the DV 336se! I'm using Beyerdynamic DT1990s with both balanced and analytical pads. I'm starting my tube collection journey. Right now, I just picked up a NOS RCA Black Plate 6as7g and NOS GE 6sn7gtb. And am also looking online for NOS Tung-Sol 5998/7236 an NOS Tung Sol 6sn7s.
> 
> I picked up a GE 6sn7gtb because it was my clear favorite preamp tube I heard on Zeos's Darkvoice Tube rolling video. It was bright, lively, forward and full punchy bass, yet smooth and not strident.
> 
> ...


welcome to the thread, those power tubes you picked up should be plenty good for what your after. one if them will hit the sweet spot. Congrats. 👍


----------



## JKDJedi

I have 5 Sylvania 6J5 tubes here somewhere..just found the one..😒 time to reorganize the shelves..


----------



## NickLong2112

JKDJedi said:


> welcome to the thread, those power tubes you picked up should be plenty good for what your after. one if them will hit the sweet spot. Congrats. 👍




Thanks man! Any experience with the Rca 6as7g? Have any personal recs?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> it is your destiny....



@JKDJedi by the way - those 5998 on ebay from japan mostly test around 50gm mark (40 is the minimum).  So they seem to be on the fair side of testing.  My gut instinct was right on those.


----------



## JKDJedi

NickLong2112 said:


> Thanks man! Any experience with the Rca 6as7g? Have any personal recs?


They're a little loose but are inviting at the same time, with the right driver (and I'm guessing what you have will work)  can be enjoyable. Tubes however (in the voice of Tom Hanks) are "like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get".


----------



## NickLong2112 (Nov 23, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> They're a little loose but are inviting at the same time, with the right driver (and I'm guessing what you have will work)  can be enjoyable. Tubes however (in the voice of Tom Hanks) are "like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get".



Haha word!
Loose sounds like an OK thing as Its inviting, engaging, and a little tubey. Honestly, likely will prefer a little bloom over a less inviting sound


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 23, 2020)

I was gonna rest today..but dang it .. tube rolling 6J5 (Sylvania x2, GecL63, Pinnacle, RCA 6C5, & Zenith)


----------



## therremans (Nov 23, 2020)

NickLong2112 said:


> Haha word!
> Loose sounds like an OK thing as Its inviting, engaging, and a little tubey. Honestly, likely will prefer a little bloom over a less inviting sound


Buy low, sell high enough to break even or even turn a profit to buy other tubes. Try out many for yourself. RCA is still my least favorite power tube. However, many love them.. you can find them cheap enough to try out.

(Edit: still waiting on bcowen to send me a GE)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



ROFL!  I was thinking more along the lines of this, but those would work too.


----------



## JKDJedi

@Slade01 Have to take back what I said earlier , output tube makes a huge difference (Bendix6080wb) with these tin cans.. (I should've known)


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I was thinking more along the lines of this, but those would work too.


Thinking about modding the adapter for amber LEDs?
(Rick James = @Deyan)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have 5 Sylvania 6J5 tubes here somewhere..just found the one..😒 time to reorganize the shelves..



Uh-oh.  By all appearances, you've reached Level 4.  Get help (not from me, obviously) before you reach Level 5.   

https://www.hoarders911.com/5-stages-of-hoarding-disorder/


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Thinking about modding the adapter for amber LEDs?
> (Rick James = @Deyan)


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Thinking about modding the adapter for amber LEDs?
> (Rick James = @Deyan)



I was planning on duct tape, but now you've given me a neat idea!  Thanks....I think?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> (Edit: still waiting on bcowen to send me a GE)



I don't have any GE power tubes....never hated any of my amps _that_ bad.   I do have a few GE 6SN7's....IIRC they came along in one of those tube caddies I bought many years ago.  I likely missed the trash can when I chunked them and my wife stuck 'em back in the box.  She didn't know...I forgive her.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> @Slade01 Have to take back what I said earlier , output tube makes a huge difference (Bendix6080wb) with these tin cans.. (I should've known)



I can only imagine.  It was already rock solid for me with the regular gold brand 6080.  The gec 6080 even better.  Like I said, the tin cans seem underrated. They were a pleasant surprise for only a few bucks.  I definitely need to cap it off with a 5998 for sure.  I still have those dual A2293 power as a wild card too.  *watches mailbox like a hawk for deyan made adapter...*


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Uh-oh.  By all appearances, you've reached Level 4.  Get help (not from me, obviously) before you reach Level 5.
> 
> https://www.hoarders911.com/5-stages-of-hoarding-disorder/


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


!!! ROFL !!!


----------



## therremans

New arrivals:

Thompson 6080 nos


1930s Zenith 6j5g engraved base


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> New arrivals:
> 
> Thompson 6080 nos
> 
> ...


let me know what you think of the Thompson.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> New arrivals:
> 
> Thompson 6080 nos
> 
> ...



Nice!

And I should have a new arrival tomorrow -- the Chatham slotted graphite plate 6080WB you returned to the seller.  May the force be with me as I don my Tube Whisperer costume.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Nice!
> 
> And I should have a new arrival tomorrow -- the Chatham slotted graphite plate 6080WB you returned to the seller.  May the force be with me as I don my Tube Whisperer costume.


Yeah, you mean the red label Bendix. Good luck with it. I hope all it needs is 750 degrees of iron. Haha.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Nice!
> 
> And I should have a new arrival tomorrow -- the Chatham slotted graphite plate 6080WB you returned to the seller.  May the force be with me as I don my Tube Whisperer costume.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yeah, you mean the red label Bendix. Good luck with it. I hope all it needs is 750 degrees of iron. Haha.


Or X-ray vision...


----------



## bcowen (Nov 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> Yeah, you mean the red label Bendix. Good luck with it. I hope all it needs is 750 degrees of iron. Haha.



Yeah, I meant the Bendix.  I'm confident my soldering skills are intact even though my memory isn't.   LOL!


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2020)

Thomson - 6080WA - France  - $15 NOS




I always read positive reactions about how the Thomson 6080 sounds and for $15, I wanted to own one. It will not replace your Mullard or GEC. However this tube surprised me and it still needs to burn in. If I notice any changes after it has hours on it, I will come edit this review. I tested it using the Zenith 6J5Gs and HD6XX and then I switched to Sylvania 6J5GTs. I also switched it out with a NOS Mullard and Bendix 6080 at the end to compare.

+ Slightly warm with a nice balanced high end
+ Pretty neutral and enjoyable/musical
+ $15 NOS
- Recessed low end, lacks bass rumble and slam
- Instrument separation is mediocre
- Microdetails are not there (instruments do not sound all that realistic)

Overall, it has a pleasant sound to it that is very listenable, pretty neutral tubey sound (not too warm or bright, not overly slow or fast).. it just is not that analytical or precise. But I feel there is some magic going on, it does something right and I like it. If you own a Mullard, GEC or Bendix.. you can safely pass on this tube. When I popped in the Mullard and put on _Dave Brubeck - Cassandra_, I could really get to enjoy that wide soundstage from the Zeniths. The instrument separation was in another league. Another noticeable difference was how realistic the instruments such as the drummer in my left speaker sounded. The Bendix was able to hang with the Mullard here on detail and separation but retained more bass + mids from the drums and upright stringed bass.

I recommend this tube for anyone on a budget who listens to a lot of jazz and classical and is willing to accept mediocre separation and details. I would also recommend pairing it up with an output tube that will give it more bass and midrange emphasis. ex: some Sylvanias or Ken-Rad.


----------



## bcowen

Laugh of the day.  You'd think that a seller with 13,406 feedbacks would know what 'NOS' means.   


https://www.ebay.com/itm/143861112104?ul_noapp=true


----------



## bcowen

Wait.......it gets funnier!  Same spec as a WE421A?  ROFL!  Kind of not even remotely close.  That's a GE 6AS7GA.  $89.99?  Maybe worth $0.89, but only with free shipping.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154210231046?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Laugh of the day.  You'd think that a seller with 13,406 feedbacks would know what 'NOS' means.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143861112104?ul_noapp=true



Are you going to take the guts out of these broken NOS tubes and fix @therremans 's returned Bendix tubes?   Making them better...stronger...faster....?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Laugh of the day.  You'd think that a seller with 13,406 feedbacks would know what 'NOS' means.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143861112104?ul_noapp=true


I just saw this listing from my email.
New old stock - used burnt trash.

Q: Can I send it back to Bendix for repair?
A: Museum?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Wait.......it gets funnier!  Same spec as a WE421A?  ROFL!  Kind of not even remotely close.  That's a GE 6AS7GA.  $89.99?  Maybe worth $0.89, but only with free shipping.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154210231046?ul_noapp=true


Oh yes but sir, both use dual triodes and 6.3v. Same tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Thomson - 6080WA - France  - $15 NOS
> 
> 
> I always read positive reactions about how the Thomson 6080 sounds and for $15, I wanted to own one. It will not replace your Mullard or GEC. However this tube surprised me and it still needs to burn in. If I notice any changes after it has hours on it, I will come edit this review. I tested it using the Zenith 6J5Gs and HD6XX and then I switched to Sylvania 6J5GTs. I also switched it out with a NOS Mullard and Bendix 6080 at the end to compare.
> ...



This tube is as neutral a 6080 as you'll find and will not add any flavor to the driver tube. So it's hit and miss, no maybes with this tube. It does open up after some hours of use, I gave one away couple weeks ago (kept one for myself) and wow..$15.  You never cease to amaze me with these bargain hunts.. who sold you that tube for $15?


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> This tube is as neutral a 6080 as you'll find and will not add any flavor to the driver tube. So it's hit and miss, no maybes with this tube. It does open up after some hours of use, I gave one away couple weeks ago (kept one for myself) and wow..$15.  You never cease to amaze me with these bargain hunts.. who sold you that tube for $15?


Yeah, it’s a nice tube for the money. Langrex has them on eBay. I’m going to let it burn in over today and tomorrow.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I just saw this listing from my email.
> New old stock - used burnt trash.
> 
> Q: Can I send it back to Bendix for repair?
> A: Museum?



i actually bought a pair of tubes from them before.  (ironically enough @therremans  it was a similar situation to your "8060" buy.   i scored a pair of "chath*e*ms" 6080wa from them with a one and done bid due to the description misspelling most likely.  One tube was fine, but the other one ended up arcing in a blaze of glory.  needless to say, i didn't buy from them again...

definitely weird - i don't know why they would say it could be repaired unless you're some sort of freaking genie wizard.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Are you going to take the guts out of these broken NOS tubes and fix @therremans 's returned Bendix tubes?   Making them better...stronger...faster....?



Shhhhh....


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I just saw this listing from my email.
> New old stock - used burnt trash.
> 
> Q: Can I send it back to Bendix for repair?
> A: Museum?



   

There's an Ebay seller (don't remember his name) that continually lists tubes as "refurbished."  I sent him a message a while back asking him exactly what refurbished meant when it came to a tube: "We clean them and test them."  OK, whatever.  I think Ebay has more shysters per square inch than any other internet entity, and they do absolutely *nothing* to monitor or eject them.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I gave one away couple weeks ago (kept one for myself) and wow..$15. You never cease to amaze me with these bargain hunts.. who sold you that tube for $15?



The guy you gave that one to a couple weeks ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The guy you gave that one to a couple weeks ago.


He's probably using it for target practice..


----------



## Slade01

Anyone looking for a regular Tung Sol 6080 - there is one up here:  Link   Maybe be able to haggle make him an offer. Is untested?

I told him to put up pics of the actual tube instead of just the stupid a** box.  So he did at least.  Because, yeah, i want to plunker down cash sight unseen.  I need to see what's behind door #3 before i blindly throw money at someone...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Anyone looking for a regular Tung Sol 6080 - there is one up here:  Link   Maybe be able to haggle make him an offer. Is untested?
> 
> I told him to put up pics of the actual tube instead of just the stupid a** box.  So he did at least.  Because, yeah, i want to plunker down cash sight unseen.  I need to see what's behind door #3 before i blindly throw money at someone...


Those are nice, _probably_ the widest soundstage of them all (6080), surprised to hear myself type that.. O.O  They do have that tubey sound going for them more so in the mid range area, not in the lows like the RCA 6as7g do. I could be wrong.. been awhile since I rolled this tube. Same tube as the Chatham 6080.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Anyone looking for a regular Tung Sol 6080 - there is one up here:  Link   Maybe be able to haggle make him an offer. Is untested?
> 
> I told him to put up pics of the actual tube instead of just the stupid a** box.  So he did at least.  Because, yeah, i want to plunker down cash sight unseen.  I need to see what's behind door #3 before i blindly throw money at someone...



Will an 'Elecrtinic' tube work in the Darkvoice?  Can't say I have any...     

Seriously, that is the 'good' TungSol 6080 with the metal wing mica supports.


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 24, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Will an 'Elecrtinic' tube work in the Darkvoice?  Can't say I have any...
> 
> Seriously, that is the 'good' TungSol 6080 with the metal wing mica supports.



Well, I just found out that the seller (sounds like a kid) who is only used to dealing with selling trading cards - he's selling vacuum tubes that were his (grand?)father's who passed away.  He actually thanked for me asking him to put up pics of the actual tube because he's trying to learn how to sell them better.  So go figure.  But yeah, if this tube measures good, is better than alot of the other 6080 options out there, but a risk since it is untested.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Well, I just found out that the seller (sounds like a kid) who is only used to dealing with selling trading cards - he's selling vacuum tubes that were his (grand?)father's who passed away.  He actually thanked for me asking him to put up pics of the actual tube because he's trying to learn how to sell them better.  So go figure.  But yeah, if this tube measures good, is better than alot of the other 6080 options out there, but a risk since it is untested.



And better than the tube I just got.  In one hour I've gone from Tube Whisperer to Tube Expletive-Utterer.    Got the Bendix 6080 that @therremans (wisely) returned to the seller, and it has almost a dead short in one triode. Resoldering the pins has helped a couple other tubes with similar afflictions, but not this one. Oh well.  Win some, lose some, and this one sadly goes in the loss column.

Hickok and Weston both show a near short between cathode and grid on one triode. The meter needle on both testers should remain to the left of the 5M (5 megohm) mark (preferably), and certainly to the left of the 3M mark.  Bad, bad tube.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> And better than the tube I just got.  In one hour I've gone from Tube Whisperer to Tube Expletive-Utterer.    Got the Bendix 6080 that @therremans (wisely) returned to the seller, and it has almost a dead short in one triode. Resoldering the pins has helped a couple other tubes with similar afflictions, but not this one. Oh well.  Win some, lose some, and this one sadly goes in the loss column.
> 
> Hickok and Weston both show a near short between cathode and grid on one triode. The meter needle on both testers should remain to the left of the 5M (5 megohm) mark (preferably), and certainly to the left of the 3M mark.  Bad, bad tube.


Oh bummer! I was hoping you’d make it at least useable. Well there’s always the museum.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And better than the tube I just got.  In one hour I've gone from Tube Whisperer to Tube Expletive-Utterer.    Got the Bendix 6080 that @therremans (wisely) returned to the seller, and it has almost a dead short in one triode. Resoldering the pins has helped a couple other tubes with similar afflictions, but not this one. Oh well.  Win some, lose some, and this one sadly goes in the loss column.
> 
> Hickok and Weston both show a near short between cathode and grid on one triode. The meter needle on both testers should remain to the left of the 5M (5 megohm) mark (preferably), and certainly to the left of the 3M mark.  Bad, bad tube.


estupids!!


----------



## bcowen (Nov 24, 2020)

therremans said:


> Oh bummer! I was hoping you’d make it at least useable. Well there’s always the museum.



I'm trying to find that guy on Ebay. Perhaps he can 'refurbish' it for me.  Or maybe I should put it up for auction on Ebay. As-is, no returns, and see what happens.  At times, it would pay to be sleazy.


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2020)

I am considering these 10uf caps - ClarityCaps




*10uF 250Vdc, CSA Series, Metalized Polypropylene Film Capacitor +/- 3% Tolerance*

*Features:*

Guaranteed 3% tolerance
The end product of 2 years of research
Tightly packed windings that reduce resonances
Compact, inexpensive form factor
Unique build process with embedded copper lattice that reduces resistance and grain boundaries
PDF Datasheet


----------



## bcowen (Nov 24, 2020)

therremans said:


> I am considering these 10uf caps - ClarityCaps
> 
> 
> *10uF 250Vdc, CSA Series, Metalized Polypropylene Film Capacitor +/- 3% Tolerance*
> ...



Those are really good caps, but you're going to need a big shoehorn.      Lengthwise they can probably be made to fit (1/8" longer than the stock caps), but 3 of them side by side (per channel) will take 4.25" and the stock caps only take 2".  I don't think you want to go with any less total capacitance (ie: fewer caps), as I've been told that more capacitance there would be better than even the stock 30 uF/channel.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I am considering these 10uf caps - ClarityCaps
> 
> 
> *10uF 250Vdc, CSA Series, Metalized Polypropylene Film Capacitor +/- 3% Tolerance*
> ...


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Those are really good caps, but you're going to need a big shoehorn.      Lengthwise they can probably be made to fit (1/8" longer than the stock caps), but 3 of them side by side (per channel) will take 4.25" and the stock caps only take 2".  I don't think you want to go with any less total capacitance (ie: fewer caps), as I've been told that more capacitance there would be better than even the stock 30 uF/channel.


good catch, thanks. I hadn’t opened up the amp and taken measurements yet but clearly too wide. But now that I know the 2” per channel, I can look at another options.

If 2"x2" works for each channel. I could use one of their 33uf per side
ClarityCap Capacitor 33uF 250Vdc CSA Series USD $27.95 (L-50mm W-52mm)




I could also maybe fit one of these,
ClarityCap Capacitor 0.33uF 630Vdc CSA Series (1% of 33uf)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> good catch, thanks. I hadn’t opened up the amp and taken measurements yet but clearly too wide. But now that I know the 2” per channel, I can look at another options.
> 
> If 2"x2" works for each channel. I could use one of their 33uf per side
> ClarityCap Capacitor 33uF 250Vdc CSA Series USD $27.95 (L-50mm W-52mm)
> ...



Not trying to rain on the parade (I'd love to replace those caps!), but that 2" x 2" won't fit either.  The footprint of the existing 3 caps (per channel) is 1 3/8" (35mm) x 2" (51mm).  And there's not much wiggle room beyond that -- maybe + 1/4" each way, but without relocating some other stuff that's about the extent of it.  That's what got me interested in those Vishays as they will fit in the footprint of the existing caps.


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Not trying to rain on the parade (I'd love to replace those caps!), but that 2" x 2" won't fit either.  The footprint of the existing 3 caps (per channel) is 1 3/8" (35mm) x 2" (51mm).  And there's not much wiggle room beyond that -- maybe + 1/4" each way, but without relocating some other stuff that's about the extent of it.  That's what got me interested in those Vishays as they will fit in the footprint of the existing caps.


Good to know. You’ve done the homework and I pulled the second measurement out of you. Consider my parade rained on. I’ll keep searching or accept Vishays.


Are the resistors on the pcb only for the  preamp output signal?, if so, I could remove them.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Good to know. You’ve done the homework and I pulled the second measurement out of you. Consider my parade rained on. I’ll keep searching or accept Vishays.
> 
> 
> Are the resistors on the pcb only for the  preamp output signal?, if so, I could remove them.




The blue blocks (white arrows)?  Those are the .47 uF caps for the preamp out.  I suppose they could be removed, although I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what that might do to the circuit (if anything). But doing that would increase that available space from 1 3/8" to close to 2" if everything is placed _just_ right.  Of course the next problem now rears its ugly head -- there's only 1 3/8" of space between the circuit board and the bottom plate and that 33 uF Clarity cap is a little over 2" in diameter.  Sigh.


----------



## therremans (Nov 25, 2020)

To quickly go back to the French Thomson 6080.. I let it burn in all day, for about 16 hours and popped in a Ken-Rad late this evening. Nice combo.. The tube now sounds a little more versatile after the burn in and with this pairing. I would assume several other output tubes with a low-end or mid focus would be similar. It retains its nice clarity. Yeah, it still lacks the texture and soundstage of a premium 6080.. and it still has a lighter bottom end. I would still easily recommend it for an affordable and guys new to the hobby. I like it so much I will actually keep it. It's just an all around good sounding tube. Much more enjoyable than the RCA was for me early on, but I would still recommend the RCA or Svetlana if low end is a priority.


----------



## therremans (Nov 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The blue blocks (white arrows)?  Those are the .47 uF caps for the preamp out.  I suppose they could be removed, although I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what that might do to the circuit (if anything). But doing that would increase that available space from 1 3/8" to close to 2" if everything is placed _just_ right.  Of course the next problem now rears its ugly head -- there's only 1 3/8" of space between the circuit board and the bottom plate and that 33 uF Clarity cap is a little over 2" in diameter.  Sigh.


I forgot about those big blue capacitors. It really sounds like the height limitation will restrict us. I thought it would be fun to fit real foils. let me know what else you think of.

Do you think using hifi resistors like z-foils on the shunted pot would make much of a difference? Also there are three resistors coming off of the 6sn7 socket that could be swapped.


----------



## therremans (Nov 25, 2020)

I want to build an amp in the next year and will maybe use those ClarityCaps. I may just stick with those vishays for the DV. They should fit fine and that is the big restriction here.


----------



## SHIMACM

I changed my press on some tubes after I removed the preamp output.

Before, I considered the Mullard 6080 to be the best outlet tube in my system. I have the RCA 6as7g, Chatham 6as7g, TS 5998 and the Mullard 6080.

With the removal of the preamp output, the Mullard 6080's stage narrowed and the separation of instruments decreased, while in relation to the other tubes, the stage and the separation of instruments improved.

Chatham 6as7g and TS 5998 now easily beat the Mullard 6080. Even RCA can now compete on equal terms with Mullard.

Has anyone else felt this difference?

I think that contributes to the argument that the tubes sound different in different amplifiers.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 25, 2020)

therremans said:


> I forgot about those big blue capacitors. It really sounds like the height limitation will restrict us. I thought it would be fun to fit real foils. let me know what else you think of.
> 
> Do you think using hifi resistors like z-foils on the shunted pot would make much of a difference? Also there are three resistors coming off of the 6sn7 socket that could be swapped.



Yeah, the Z-foils probably _would_ make a difference, but hoo boy...they are pricey.

I replaced the cathode resistors on the 6SN7 socket with Riken carbon films, and actually listened before I added the (Fitz mod) caps.  Noticeable difference.  Haven't gotten around to checking the other resistors to see if I have Rikens of the right value....was planning to do that whenever I get around to the volume pot (yes, I'm lazy).


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I changed my press on some tubes after I removed the preamp output.
> 
> Before, I considered the Mullard 6080 to be the best outlet tube in my system. I have the RCA 6as7g, Chatham 6as7g, TS 5998 and the Mullard 6080.
> 
> ...



Wow.  This is _very_  interesting.  When I disconnected the wiring for the preamp outs, I ended up putting them back.  I didn't like what it did to the sound....the stage not only narrowed, but got kind of confused sounding. Stuff just didn't 'gel' any more. I didn't say anything because I figured either I was deaf....or everyone else was.    But guess what output tube I was using at the time?  Yup, a Mullard 6080.  I didn't try any other output tube as I wanted to keep comparison variables to a minimum.  Thanks for bringing this up....time to give it another go with a different output tube!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the Z-foils probably _would_ make a difference, but hoo boy...they are pricey.
> 
> I replaced the cathode resistors on the 6SN7 socket with Riken carbon films, and actually listened before I added the (Fitz mod) caps.  Noticeable difference.  Haven't gotten around to checking the other resistors to see if I have Rikens of the right value....was planning to do that whenever I get around to the volume pot (yes, I'm lazy).


The Fitz Mod replaces those resistors..no?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I was thinking more along the lines of this, but those would work too.



That's the bad thing about octals. That key they use means you can't mount an led in the centre of the socket. My LB amp had a yellowy orange LED installed . I needed to change resistors to dim it a bit, but it looks way cool. So much better than the amps you see with blue LEDs under the tube.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The Fitz Mod replaces those resistors..no?


The caps are added in addition to the resistors. *Or* LEDs are used instead of both resistors and capacitors.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Fitz Mod replaces those resistors..no?



No. The caps go in parallel with the resistors.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That's the bad thing about octals. That key they use means you can't mount an led in the centre of the socket.



Yeah, and even more problematic with a tin can tube.  

Maybe something like this I can just wrap around the tin can.  It *is* Clark Griswold season, right?


----------



## therremans

Does anyone have a nice breakdown or image showing the values of the DV resistors and capacitors?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Does anyone have a nice breakdown or image showing the values of the DV resistors and capacitors?



This one was done by @Absoltuion .  The green text is the components spec voltage, and the yellow is his measured voltage (and red text for resistors).


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Wow.  This is _very_  interesting.  When I disconnected the wiring for the preamp outs, I ended up putting them back.  I didn't like what it did to the sound....the stage not only narrowed, but got kind of confused sounding. Stuff just didn't 'gel' any more. I didn't say anything because I figured either I was deaf....or everyone else was.



Before removing the preamp output, the driver tube that matched the Mullard 6080 was the gray glass RCA vt231.

After I removed the preamp output, the RCA vt231 with the Mullard 6080 became a bad combination.

Yesterday I decided to test the most brilliant tube in my collection, a Raytheon vt231 with the Mullard 6080.

To my surprise, Raytheon brought Mullard back to life.

Raytheon was a tube that I was selling because it didn’t fit my system, as it didn’t have synergy with any of my power valves.

But now I have found that he has a tremendous synergy with the Mullard (of course it is with the preamp output removed).


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Before removing the preamp output, the driver tube that matched the Mullard 6080 was the gray glass RCA vt231.
> 
> After I removed the preamp output, the RCA vt231 with the Mullard 6080 became a bad combination.
> 
> ...



Is your Raytheon a flat plate or T-plate version?


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Is your Raytheon a flat plate or T-plate version?







That's it.


----------



## Brubacca

Is there a thread for good headphones for the Darkvoice?  Everyone seems to land on Sennheiser HD6xx, HD650. I have the HD6xx and really like them. I'm looking for closed back options. 

I've done a couple internet searches and come up with threads that are years old recommending products that are no longer available.


----------



## therremans

Brubacca said:


> Is there a thread for good headphones for the Darkvoice?  Everyone seems to land on Sennheiser HD6xx, HD650. I have the HD6xx and really like them. I'm looking for closed back options.
> 
> I've done a couple internet searches and come up with threads that are years old recommending products that are no longer available.


Search this thread for the DT-770 or DT-1770. I don’t know any other recommendations for higher ohm closed backs. What is your reasoning or preference for a pair of closed backs?


----------



## bcowen (Nov 26, 2020)

therremans said:


> Search this thread for the DT-770 or DT-1770. I don’t know any other recommendations for higher ohm closed backs. What is your reasoning or preference for a pair of closed backs?



I'm looking for a pair of high impedance closed backs too.  I don't care about outside sound coming in, I'm wanting to keep inside sound from going out....and reduce the annoyed stares from the spousal unit and the "What the HELL is that you're listening to?" comments. She still thinks Marilyn Manson is a female with a really gruff voice.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm looking too for a pair of high impedance closed backs too.  I don't care about outside sound coming in, I'm wanting to keep inside sound from going out....and reduce the annoyed stares from the spousal unit and the "What the HELL is that you're listening to?" comments. She still thinks Marilyn Manson is a female with a really gruff voice.


High impedance closed-backs....first to mind, ZMF Verite Closed...


----------



## Brubacca

bcowen said:


> I'm looking too for a pair of high impedance closed backs too.  I don't care about outside sound coming in, I'm wanting to keep inside sound from going out....and reduce the annoyed stares from the spousal unit and the "What the HELL is that you're listening to?" comments. She still thinks Marilyn Manson is a female with a really gruff voice.


Yes.  This.  Trying to listen in a common area.


----------



## Brubacca

jonathan c said:


> High impedance closed-backs....first to mind, ZMF Verite Closed...


Unfortunately $2,500 per pair headphones don't make any sense for me personally.  Need to be in that <=$200 range.


----------



## bcowen

Brubacca said:


> Unfortunately $2,500 per pair headphones don't make any sense for me personally.  Need to be in that <=$200 range.



I'd love to find a good set of closed-backs in that price range, but man there just isn't anything with a high enough impedance to work well with the DV.  Every time I spy something that looks interesting it has like a 25 ohm (or less) impedance.  I've been interested in the ZMF 'phones for a while...rave reviews plus a number of closed-back models that have 300 ohm impedances.  I'm really tempted to snag a pair of Atticus's, but they're about 2x the max price I was wanting to spend.  I'm gonna run out and buy a lottery ticket real quick...


----------



## therremans

Found the guy who has the skills to refurbish vacuum tubes. He refurbishes any kind of tube. Send over that Bendix and it’ll be like new.


----------



## Brubacca

bcowen said:


> I'd love to find a good set of closed-backs in that price range, but man there just isn't anything with a high enough impedance to work well with the DV.  Every time I spy something that looks interesting it has like a 25 ohm (or less) impedance.  I've been interested in the ZMF 'phones for a while...rave reviews plus a number of closed-back models that have 300 ohm impedances.  I'm really tempted to snag a pair of Atticus's, but they're about 2x the max price I was wanting to spend.  I'm gonna run out and buy a lottery ticket real quick...


If I had that money I'd buy a Schiit Lyr 3 and a Dan Clark Audio Aeon RT Closed as a second system.


----------



## bcowen

Brubacca said:


> If I had that money I'd buy a Schiit Lyr 3 and a Dan Clark Audio Aeon RT Closed as a second system.



I have a Lyr 3 (probably going to sell it), and had both the OG Aeon Closed and the Aeon 2 closed.  Haven't heard the RT's though.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Found the guy who has the skills to refurbish vacuum tubes. He refurbishes any kind of tube. Send over that Bendix and it’ll be like new.



Alright!!!  Of course he'll probably want $200 to refurbish it.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Want to thank @therremans for this beautifully hand crafted headphone cable for my HD6XX. Excellent quality.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Want to thank @therremans for this beautifully hand crafted headphone cable for my HD6XX. Excellent quality.



Sweet!  The cable is (IMO) the weakest link with the HD-6XX's.  Better cable = mo' better sound instantly.


----------



## wideload

And I thought my 6xx cable was so much better than my stock Sundara cable! What do I win for having two of the best headphones with the worst stock cables? 😀


----------



## bcowen

wideload said:


> And I thought my 6xx cable was so much better than my stock Sundara cable! What do I win for having two of the best headphones with the worst stock cables? 😀



You win @JKDJedi 's old cable.  Plus shipping.


----------



## therremans

This is a slight upgrade but it is better than the cheap stock HD6XX cable. Product number 92885.

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/accessories--hd-650--cable


----------



## bcowen (Nov 28, 2020)

I had a friend do the braiding on this and was quite happy with the end result. It was originally made for the DCA Aeon 2 'phones and was a slight improvement over the upgraded 'DUMMER' cable I had for them.  Then when the HD-6XX's arrived I saw the opportunity for a big improvement, whacked off the Aeon connectors and put the Senn connectors on. I was right...it _was_ a big improvement in this case. Like large even.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I had a friend do the braiding on this and was quite happy with the end result. It was originally made for the DCA Aeon 2 'phones and was a slight improvement over the upgraded 'DUMMER' cable I had for them.  Then when the HD-6XX's arrived I saw the opportunity for a big improvement, whacked off the Aeon connectors and put the Senn connectors on. I was right...it _was_ a big improvement in this case. Like large even.


Yeah, I could hear sonic improvements with a good quality cable when I didn’t expect to.


----------



## therremans (Nov 29, 2020)

A pair of etched 1930s Zenith 6J5Gs manufactured by Raytheon arrived today. Finally able to hear these. They sound very nice and neutral, what you'd expect with Zenith, spacious and detailed. A similar sound signature but two things really stand out, the Raytheon has a lower gain and less midrange (umph) than the Sylvania made Zeniths. Very noticeable. But the Raytheon's don't color the sound as much. I was listening to both on a NOS Mullard 6080.

Raytheon:






Sylvania:


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, I could hear sonic improvements with a good quality cable when I didn’t expect to.



I'm gonna blame @JKDJedi for just _having_ to bring up cables.  I was in successful remission from *that* rabbit hole.  

Remembered I had this pair of (original version) Stealth PGS interconnects. They weren't long enough for what I needed at the time in the big rig, so they got decommissioned and added to the stash closet. They'd been sitting so long I figured they needed a re-cook which I did last night, and putting them in today, well...crap.  I remember why I bought them in the first place.  Not like going from a Chinese 6AS7 to a Tung Sol 5998, but easily the same improvement as going from a standard Tung Sol 6080 to a TS 5998, or even WE 421A.  So thanks Jedi. I think. If it stops here the thanks remains intact.  If not, I hate you.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> A pair of etched 1930s Zenith 6J5Gs manufactured by Raytheon arrived today. Finally able to hear these. They sound very nice and neutral, what you'd expect with Zenith, spacious and detailed. A similar sound signature but two things really stand out, the Raytheon has a lower gain and less midrange (umph) than the Sylvania made Zeniths. Very noticeable. But the Raytheon's don't color the sound as much. I was listening to both on a NOS Mullard 6080.
> 
> Raytheon:
> 
> ...


Those tubes are *b u t t e r.*. wow.. love the build on these guys.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm gonna blame @JKDJedi for just _having_ to bring up cables.  I was in successful remission from *that* rabbit hole.
> 
> Remembered I had this pair of (original version) Stealth PGS interconnects. They weren't long enough for what I needed at the time in the big rig, so they got decommissioned and added to the stash closet. They'd been sitting so long I figured they needed a re-cook which I did last night, and putting them in today, well...crap.  I remember why I bought them in the first place.  Not like going from a Chinese 6AS7 to a Tung Sol 5998, but easily the same improvement as going from a standard Tung Sol 6080 to a TS 5998, or even WE 421A.  So thanks Jedi. I think. If it stops here the thanks remains intact.  If not, I hate you.


Wha in the world.... o.O Is this real!? Cable Cooker? I had to look it up..  https://www.thecablecooker.com/


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Wha in the world.... o.O Is this real!? Cable Cooker? I had to look it up..  https://www.thecablecooker.com/


Clearly I'm in the "uninitiated" column also.  *wallet weeps as I write down another piece of gear to look into....


----------



## JKDJedi

One of my amps is a little jelly, I'll have to give it some love mid week. Be still my friend. And what a weekend, been busy with holiday traditions (tree hunting, getting the lights up) with almost no tube amp use ... almost...I did lose two tubes this weekend! one just have up the ghost, Thompson 6080 and the channel of a favorite RCA 6F8G Radiotron is slowly dying . .. thankful for the drawer full of backups! 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Wha in the world.... o.O Is this real!? Cable Cooker? I had to look it up..  https://www.thecablecooker.com/



You mean you _don't _have a cable cooker? How in the world is that even possible?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> One of my amps is a little jelly...



You obviously need some butter tubes.  Assuming, of course, you have enough bread.


----------



## SHIMACM

My Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231 arrived. Excellent tube. Lots of transparency and lots of details. For vocals it is a delight. Great synergy with RCA 6as7g and Mullard 6080.

I pulled the trigger on a Melz 1578 year 69. I made an offer and the seller sold me for $ 37. It was listed as used. I hope a bad tube doesn't arrive here.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> My Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231 arrived. Excellent tube. Lots of transparency and lots of details. For vocals it is a delight. Great synergy with RCA 6as7g and Mullard 6080.
> 
> I pulled the trigger on a Melz 1578 year 69. I made an offer and the seller sold me for $ 37. It was listed as used. I hope a bad tube doesn't arrive here.



The Melz (as well as the Fotons) are normally very reliable, quiet, and long-life tubes.  Only potential issue is the pin solder.  Some are fine, some aren't.

I have a '53 Foton that has probably 3k+ hours on it, and it tests only about 5% lower in GM than when I first got it...and still pretty close to NOS values.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> The Melz (as well as the Fotons) are normally very reliable, quiet, and long-life tubes.  Only potential issue is the pin solder.  Some are fine, some aren't.
> 
> I have a '53 Foton that has probably 3k+ hours on it, and it tests only about 5% lower in GM than when I first got it...and still pretty close to NOS values.



What good news! So I got a bargain.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> What good news! So I got a bargain.


you did, excellent buy. 👍


----------



## JKDJedi

Got wind of these tubes in Facebook and decided to take a chance on them, not expensive so why not. the word is Baldwin Organ company sourced their tubes from Sylvania, that they asked for only their best of the best. How could I resist that!? 😂 Don't know much about Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Anybody hear anything similar, different?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Got wind of these tubes in Facebook and decided to take a chance on them, not expensive so why not. the word is Baldwin Organ company sourced their tubes from Sylvania, that they asked for only their best of the best. How could I resist that!? 😂 Don't know much about Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Anybody hear anything similar, different?



They are typical Sylvania sound -- maybe less smooth at the top, a little less refined, but still has a full rich, very slightly lush sound.  It's a really great economy priced tubes. One of those really nice bangs for the buck.  Tubes made for Organs and Radios are hidden gems, especially wanting great sound for not a lot of dough. 

@JKDJedi Remember the Westinghouse Reliatrons?  I felt similar with these Baldwins.  Speaking of which, you gonna do a Sylvania Bad Boy vs the Organ Choir Baldwin Duo?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> They are typical Sylvania sound -- maybe less smooth at the top, a little less refined, but still has a full rich, very slightly lush sound.  It's a really great economy priced tubes. One of those really nice bangs for the buck.  Tubes made for Organs and Radios are hidden gems, especially wanting great sound for not a lot of dough.
> 
> @JKDJedi Remember the Westinghouse Reliatrons?  I felt similar with these Baldwins.  Speaking of which, you gonna do a Sylvania Bad Boy vs the Organ Choir Baldwin Duo?


Will Do ! 🙂


----------



## SHIMACM

I heard some comments saying that Sylvania v231 is very close to Tung-Sol round plates. What can you say about that?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I heard some comments saying that Sylvania v231 is very close to Tung-Sol round plates. What can you say about that?


That's interesting. I'll have to compare the two later this evening.


----------



## JKDJedi

Just in... #postoffice and I forgot about these guys. 53' Fotons with M stamped on them.. what's that all about Sir @bcowen ? racing home to give these a spin, they seem to be a better build than (my little collection of them so far)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Just in... #postoffice and I forgot about these guys. 53' Fotons with M stamped on them.. what's that all about Sir @bcowen ? racing home to give these a spin, they seem to be a better build than (my little collection of them so far)



The "M" stands for "Me," as in you need to send them to me.    

Seriously, I have no idea what the M stands for. The "OTK" symbol (when it's there) is a military approval, similar to the JAN designation on US-made tubes.  I have some with the M and some without...honestly haven't heard any difference between them.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 1, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The "M" stands for "Me," as in you need to send them to me.
> 
> Seriously, I have no idea what the M stands for. The "OTK" symbol (when it's there) is a military approval, similar to the JAN designation on US-made tubes.  I have some with the M and some without...honestly haven't heard any difference between them.


They're carbon copy, save the top mica material ( translucent material on the right) and the tabs ( bottom mica ) support the plates (left).


----------



## therremans

Anyone attempt to fix the voltage problem difference for the Darkvoice? As you know, the Darkvoice 336SE for the US market is rated at 110v when our mains are well above this. Does this actually cause more voltage going to the tubes, which would shorten lifespan? If this isn't the case, wouldn't it be ideal to allow the transformer to work at its rated spec? So why not use an affordable external variable transformer like the Variac? Overkill? Maybe. Will I buy it? Already did.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Anyone attempt to fix the voltage problem difference for the Darkvoice? As you know, the Darkvoice 336SE for the US market is rated at 110v when our mains are well above this. Does this actually cause more voltage going to the tubes, which would shorten lifespan? If this isn't the case, wouldn't it be ideal to allow the transformer to work at its rated spec? So why not use an affordable external variable transformer like the Variac? Overkill? Maybe. Will I buy it? Already did.



I tried mine.  I'll refrain from comment until you try yours.    Note that you'll want to check the actual output voltage with a DVM as the gauge on the variac (if it's anything like mine) is worthless. The output will also sag some with a load (like the amp)...I got a Y-splitter so I could check and adjust the output voltage with an active load.


----------



## therremans (Dec 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I tried mine.  I'll refrain from comment until you try yours.    Note that you'll want to check the actual output voltage with a DVM as the gauge on the variac (if it's anything like mine) is worthless. The output will also sag some with a load (like the amp)...I got a Y-splitter so I could check and adjust the output voltage with an active load.


Hmm so I’m in for something. I have a kill-a-watt that I planned to leave plugged into the unit that gives a constant voltage reading. You’ve probably heard of it.


----------



## Deceneu808

Just got the Sylvania in


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Hmm so I’m in for something. I have a kill-a-watt that I planned to leave plugged into the unit that gives a constant voltage reading. You’ve probably heard of it.



That will do the trick for sure.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Just got the Sylvania in



And?   Sonic impressions or it didn't happen.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> And?   Sonic impressions or it didn't happen.


Bright and thick at the same time. My fav so far. Tung Sol 6SN7GTB sounds darker and bass is heavier but overall this is the better


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Anyone attempt to fix the voltage problem difference for the Darkvoice? As you know, the Darkvoice 336SE for the US market is rated at 110v when our mains are well above this. Does this actually cause more voltage going to the tubes, which would shorten lifespan? If this isn't the case, wouldn't it be ideal to allow the transformer to work at its rated spec? So why not use an affordable external variable transformer like the Variac? Overkill? Maybe. Will I buy it? Already did.


Getting my popcorn ready! 🙂 Keep us posted!


----------



## SHIMACM

Interesting how the synergy between the tubes is everything. The Sylvania vt231 combined wonderfully well with the RCA 6as7g, but with the Chatham 6as7g it was very thin and shiny, even though Chatham was a better power valve.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Interesting how the synergy between the tubes is everything. The Sylvania vt231 combined wonderfully well with the RCA 6as7g, but with the Chatham 6as7g it was very thin and shiny, even though Chatham was a better power valve.


how's it sound with the Mullard?


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> how's it sound with the Mullard?



It sounds great with Mullard too. Although I liked the combination RCA + Sylvania more.


----------



## therremans (Dec 2, 2020)

Besides a great tube pairing, headphone configuration does make a big difference. I have been enjoying the 5998 so much more since I installed Dekoni’s hybrid pads on the DT-1990. Very clean and detailed highs with a nice healthy low end. Quite happy with this pairing, Tung-Sol 5998 + Tung-Sol VT-99 (fp).


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> Interesting how the synergy between the tubes is everything. The Sylvania vt231 combined wonderfully well with the RCA 6as7g, but with the Chatham 6as7g it was very thin and shiny, even though Chatham was a better power valve.



Aren't the Chatham 6as7g and RCA very similar in construction?  Is your Chatham vs. RCA have different getter placement?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Aren't the Chatham 6as7g and RCA very similar in construction?  Is your Chatham vs. RCA have different getter placement?


Similar and not the same. no shielding under bottom mica (Chatham) and different materials of the support rods (bronze Chatham, steel/aluminum RCA) That's what I can tell visually, and Chatham are all bottom getters (to my knowledge so far) RCA not all bottom getters. and then the sound. Not the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Besides a great tube pairing, headphone configuration does make a big difference. I have been enjoying the 5998 so much more since I installed Dekoni’s hybrid pads on the DT-1990. Very clean and detailed highs with a nice healthy low end. Quite happy with this pairing, Tung-Sol 5998 + Tung-Sol VT-99 (fp).


With the Darkvoice I'm still battling with myself on which headphone I enjoy the most on it, right now it's the Beyerdynamic.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Similar and not the same. no shielding under bottom mica (Chatham) and different materials of the support rods (bronze Chatham, steel/aluminum RCA) That's what I can tell visually, and Chatham are all bottom getters (to my knowledge so far) RCA not all bottom getters. and then the sound. Not the same.



It is a curious thing (I think being discussed on he 6AS7 rolling thread)  about getter placements on the 6AS7G - but similar to @SHIMACM finds his VT231 to pair better with a tube type over the other of similar design, but the getter placement is what sticks out (then shielding too).  For me personally it begs the question, I used to have a tube like @Deceneu808 's Sylvania 6SN7WGTA Triangle Plates, when I started up -- which I didn't like, but only had one power tube, and really didn't know better.  Now -- its those what ifs - would I still like those tubes I hated and sold off very early if I just had the right pairing.  So it just peaks my curiosity about how much the getter placement affects sound.


----------



## therremans

One of each.. still looking for a pair!


----------



## therremans

25% off! RARE 6080 6080WB NOS TUBE BENDIX MECHANICAL SAMPLE [] 3 MICA OLD PRODUCTION 421A


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> 25% off! RARE 6080 6080WB NOS TUBE BENDIX MECHANICAL SAMPLE [] 3 MICA OLD PRODUCTION 421A


have one and gave one away... 😂😂 didn't pay that much for them...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> One of each.. still looking for a pair!



6C5's?  Nice!


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 3, 2020)

And worth mentioning again (40th?) Westinghouse (tall bottle Reliatron) 6SN7GTB D getter tube.

#anotherbangforyourbuck

Chilln with the Mullard


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "Slade01, postagem: 16013072, membro: 513717"]
O Chatham 6as7g e o RCA não são muito semelhantes em construção? O seu Chatham vs. RCA tem uma colocação de getter diferente?
[/CITAR]









Chatham vs RCA. You can't see the getter at the top of Chatham.

My T1 is from the 1st generation. It is an extremely detailed phone with wonderful highs. I get a great sound on it by always combining a brighter valve with a hot, lush one.


----------



## Deceneu808

Anybody else using Beyers 600 ohm on the DV ? I feel like they are a little underpowered with every tube combo I have. I usually run them "hybrid" on a Marantz AVR with the DV as a preamp. Then they come alive


----------



## SHIMACM

I can't imagine Darkvoice not giving Beyer enough power. What tubes do you use with them?


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> I can't imagine Darkvoice not giving Beyer enough power. What tubes do you use with them?


Right now a Mullard 6080 and a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA. They scale nicely up to twelve, one c'clock and after that volume remains the same. On certain songs I wish I could push them more but that's why I run the "hybrid" setup with the Marantz, it juices them up nicely. Any recommendations for better power output tubes ?


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Anybody else using Beyers 600 ohm on the DV ? I feel like they are a little underpowered with every tube combo I have. I usually run them "hybrid" on a Marantz AVR with the DV as a preamp. Then they come alive


I understand you. I owned the T1.2 briefly and just felt like my HD6XX was a much more enjoyable listen and I didn’t actually purchase an upgrade. The T1.2 sounded too reserved, lacking low end, too thin, never really came alive for me and often had the volume turned up max. I think it wanted more power, as they are known to have great characteristics when happy and I know have great potential.

I still wanted a pair of Beyers and finally settled on the DT1990s and love them. I had a killer deal on the T1.2.. as they were basically the same price as the DT1990 but I sent them back.


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Right now a Mullard 6080 and a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA. They scale nicely up to twelve, one c'clock and after that volume remains the same. On certain songs I wish I could push them more but that's why I run the "hybrid" setup with the Marantz, it juices them up nicely. Any recommendations for better power output tubes ?



Boy will you be deaf.

Really Darkvoice has a problem with the volume button. Mine doesn't increase after the 12h position either.

I listen to mine at the most until the 10am position, and most of the time I listen to the 9am position.

Below is a list of combinations that work very well with my Beyer T1:

Chatham 6as7g + RCA vt231 gray glass.

RCA 6as7g + KenRad vt231 or Sylvania Vt231.

Mullard 6080 + Sylvania vt231 or Raytheon Vt231.

Tung-Sol 5998 + KenRad vt231.


----------



## SHIMACM

Just to add, I disconnected the output from the preamp, the sound changes. So my result may be different from yours.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I understand you. I owned the T1.2 briefly and just felt like my HD6XX was a much more enjoyable listen and I didn’t actually purchase an upgrade. The T1.2 sounded too reserved, lacking low end, too thin, never really came alive for me and often had the volume turned up max. I think it wanted more power, as they are known to have great characteristics when happy and I know have great potential.
> 
> I still wanted a pair of Beyers and finally settled on the DT1990s and love them. I had a killer deal on the T1.2.. as they were basically the same price as the DT1990 but I sent them back.



I never heard T1.2, but I am very happy with T1.1. I heard that the Dt1990 is brighter than the T1.2, is it true?

I agree that a little bit of bass is missing, but I'm the middle and high end guy. lol


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> Just to add, I disconnected the output from the preamp, the sound changes. So my result may be different from yours.


Thank you for the tube suggestions. Don't know about going deaf lol but really most of the time I listen at 9, maybe 10 o clock with the sennheisers. It's just that my 880s with swapped pads drop lower in spl and they really need more power to have them sound good. 

How is disconnecting the pre output change the sound ? Need some schooling as far as DV mods go


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you for the tube suggestions. Don't know about going deaf lol but really most of the time I listen at 9, maybe 10 o clock with the sennheisers. It's just that my 880s with swapped pads drop lower in spl and they really need more power to have them sound good.
> 
> How is disconnecting the pre output change the sound ? Need some schooling as far as DV mods go



There is a lot of information in that topic teaching you to disconnect the preamp output. It's very simple, and it improves the sound a lot.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> I never heard T1.2, but I am very happy with T1.1. I heard that the Dt1990 is brighter than the T1.2, is it true?
> 
> I agree that a little bit of bass is missing, but I'm the middle and high end guy. lol


It’s hard to remember that comparison with details specifically.. but I would agree that the T1 had a more refined/controlled high end versus some other Beyers. But I also use sonarworks which calibrates/eq for a more neutral presentation and will pull back the highs, boost mids, etc. I will say without a doubt that the 770s had the most piercing highs while not using the calibration software and DT1990s on the other hand weren’t.

In my experience a lot and not just a little of the bass was missing when comparing T1.2 to DT1990. Perhaps I could have swapped pads on the T1, let them break in more, etc. but in the end I was going for more low end fun headphone and probably shouldn’t have went with it in the first place. I also think the 1990 has great highs and soundstage and T1 may do this better but at a cost. I’d still like to hear it with a pad swap now that I’ve heard what a difference they can make for low end frequencies.


----------



## therremans

Pinnacle 6J5GT - anyone have these? Not too expensive for a pair but I’m wondering how these compare to their 6SN7GT. Also how it may compare to the Foton.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Pinnacle 6J5GT - anyone have these? Not too expensive for a pair but I’m wondering how these compare to their 6SN7GT. Also how it may compare to the Foton.



Yup.  Those appear to be the same as mine, although I can't see the getter clearly in that photo. If it's the UFO, it's a Russian 6S2S.  Actually pretty nice sounding with a warmer output tube like an RCA 6AS7 or even the Mullard 6080, but not a world beater to my ears.  I've seen 3 different versions of these Pinnacle labeled tubes now -- there are (at least) 2 metal base versions that typically go for a lot more money.

These are the ones I have. You can see the UFO getter in the right tube:





These are the metal-base versions I've seen but not heard. Top O getter in the first is visible, but can't see the getter in the painted metal-base version:


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "Slade01, postagem: 16013072, membro: 513717"]
> O Chatham 6as7g e o RCA não são muito semelhantes em construção? O seu Chatham vs. RCA tem uma colocação de getter diferente?
> [/CITAR]
> 
> ...


Wow.. and there you go.. Does that Chatham... (is it a Chatham?) A top Getter Chatham.. o.O Alright..I'm surprised. Sure looks like a Chatham.


----------



## therremans

I heard back from Mouser about the 22uf Vishays and they want a min. order of 200.. 😒


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 3, 2020)

therremans said:


> It’s hard to remember that comparison with details specifically.. but I would agree that the T1 had a more refined/controlled high end versus some other Beyers. But I also use sonarworks which calibrates/eq for a more neutral presentation and will pull back the highs, boost mids, etc. I will say without a doubt that the 770s had the most piercing highs while not using the calibration software and DT1990s on the other hand weren’t.
> 
> In my experience a lot and not just a little of the bass was missing when comparing T1.2 to DT1990. Perhaps I could have swapped pads on the T1, let them break in more, etc. but in the end I was going for more low end fun headphone and probably shouldn’t have went with it in the first place. I also think the 1990 has great highs and soundstage and T1 may do this better but at a cost. I’d still like to hear it with a pad swap now that I’ve heard what a difference they can make for low end frequencies.


"On paper" the 770 are near carbon copy the 1990 (in sound) minus the width, as 770 are closed, 1990 open. 1990 much better built.
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/t...t-770-pro-vs-beyerdynamic-dt-1990-pro/440/628


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> On paper the 770 are near carbon copy the 1990 (in sound) minus the width, as 770 are closed, 1990 open. 1990 much better built.
> https://www.rtings.com/headphones/t...t-770-pro-vs-beyerdynamic-dt-1990-pro/440/628


Hmm but in reality they sound different. 1990 is the better performer. It isn’t just a wider soundstage and better build quality. 770 is great for the money though.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I heard back from Mouser about the 22uf Vishays and they want a min. order of 200.. 😒



Awesome!  Should we create a schedule for the order in which we send our amps to you? Hate for you to get inundated all at once.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Hmm but in reality they sound different. 1990 is the better performer. It isn’t just a wider soundstage and better build quality. 770 is great for the money though.


I might get those _later_ on, DMS  gave them high praise. Love the build on those.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Awesome!  Should we create a schedule for the order in which we send our amps to you? Hate for you to get inundated all at once.


Packing mine up as we speak..


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I might get those _later_ on, DMS  gave them high praise. Love the build on those.


I agree, it’s a good upgrade for you. Keep an eye on Amazon warehouse deals. You can snag a returned pair for about $450+/-. You can get them new all day for $499 though. 

Too bad they don’t sell as low as the 1770s sometimes do. I picked up an Amazon warehouse return for only $330 or something. I could tell someone just plugged them in and sent them back. They both retail for for the same $599.


----------



## therremans (Dec 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Awesome!  Should we create a schedule for the order in which we send our amps to you? Hate for you to get inundated all at once.





JKDJedi said:


> Packing mine up as we speak..


Of course! The $1,610 cost will be distributed per cap. $1,610/12 = $135 ea. I’ll even include the labor for free.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Of course! The $1,610 cost will be distributed per cap. $1,610/12 = $135 ea. I’ll even include the labor for free.



I'll go for the half-off deal -- you can just put 6 in mine.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I'll go for the half-off deal -- you can just put 6 in mine.


Oh my fault, I thought you were buying @JKDJedi’s too.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Of course! The $1,610 cost will be distributed per cap. $1,610/12 = $135 ea. I’ll even include the labor for free.


No warehouse returns deal here!? 🙃😝😂😝


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No warehouse returns deal here!? 🙃😝😂😝



I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a used, returned capacitor in my amp.  YMMV, of course.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh my fault, I thought you were buying @JKDJedi’s too.



What?!?!? He said he was buying mine.  Dangit.  Will 2020 never end?


----------



## therremans (Dec 3, 2020)

Dekoni choice suede for DT $29.99 (@JKDJedi) - link


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Dekoni choice suede for DT $29.99 (@JKDJedi) - link


That included shipping too! Nice...In da Mail!! Thank You!


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 3, 2020)

New adapter in... thanks @Deyan 🍺 And forgot about these guys (GEC L63). Back on the 6J5 thing .. 😁 (till Saturday?)

(let's just go with the my dog ate the last one storyline)

GEC & Sylvania GB 6080


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> New adapter in... thanks @Deyan 🍺 And forgot about these guys. Back on the 6J5 thing .. 😁
> 
> (let's just go with the my dog ate the last one storyline)
> 
> GEC & Sylvania GB 6080


I have been reading up on the 6j5 thread. I saw that some of you were getting D and O getters in a pair. Luckily mine are both side O.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I have been reading up on the 6j5 thread. I saw that some of you were getting D and O getters in a pair. Luckily mine are both side O.


If your anal that will haunt you big time. Lucky for me, and a gentleman's name who needs no mentioning here..  we both got two pair sent to us for the price of one..  but he lucked out with a pair of D getter tubes and a pair of O getter tubes..sigh.. Me just three O's and one D.. Se la Vi..


----------



## bcowen

Finally got around to giving the DV some love today.

Kimber RCA's installed:





Meaning one less circuit board mucking up the sound:





Re-did the IEC earth ground with a gold-plated stake-on and 14 gauge Neotech solid core wire.  Why?  'Cause I could, I had the stuff already...and mostly because I'm anal.  Added some Stabilant-22 to the connections for good measure 'cause I'm super-anal.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Finally got around to giving the DV some love today.
> 
> Kimber RCA's installed:
> 
> ...


Looks clean.


----------



## therremans

Looking good. but, I think you forgot to upload pics of the alps install.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looking good. but, I think you forgot to upload pics of the alps install.



LOL!  Unfortunately, it's still impossible to prove a negative, photos or otherwise.    

Hopefully that will happen tomorrow. I have it in the schedule, and the operating room has been reserved. With any luck the spousal unit will be out shopping tomorrow (she still does it the old way) and I'll have the house -- and my sanity -- to myself.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Unfortunately, it's still impossible to prove a negative, photos or otherwise.
> 
> Hopefully that will happen tomorrow. I have it in the schedule, and the operating room has been reserved. With any luck the spousal unit will be out shopping tomorrow (she still does it the old way) and I'll have the house -- and my sanity -- to myself.


It’s worth it, shunt it while you’re at it. What is your pot value?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It’s worth it, shunt it while you’re at it. What is your pot value?



100k, audio taper.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It’s worth it, shunt it while you’re at it. What is your pot value?



What value resistors are you using?


----------



## therremans

I first used a 100k and wired it normal and now have 50k with 47k resistors. Noise floor drop was considerable on my amp. Try 91k with the 100k pot.


----------



## JKDJedi

slightly off topic, but you guys are my buds, I'd like to practice putting one of these builds together, but ...how would I use this thing? what is it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Ci...rd-DIY-Kits-For-12AX7-21AU7-Tube/401202330319


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> slightly off topic, but you guys are my buds, I'd like to practice putting one of these builds together, but ...how would I use this thing? what is it?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Ci...rd-DIY-Kits-For-12AX7-21AU7-Tube/401202330319



It's a simple tube preamp.  Like that goes between a source and an amplifier to amplify the source signal, control volume and provide switching between sources. All you'd need is that board, a couple tubes, a power supply, a chassis, a volume pot, a rotary switch, an IEC socket (get one with an internal AC fuse), a cord, some RCA jacks, some wire, and maybe some instructions (preferably in English).


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> It's a simple tube preamp.  Like that goes between a source and an amplifier to amplify the source signal, control volume and provide switching between sources. All you'd need is that board, a couple tubes, a power supply, a chassis, a volume pot, a rotary switch, an IEC socket (get one with an internal AC fuse), a cord, some RCA jacks, some wire, and maybe some instructions (preferably in English).


F # k that S h & t.... 🤣😂🤣🤣 I was gonna say...how does it work!? 😂😂😂


----------



## bcowen (Dec 5, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> slightly off topic, but you guys are my buds, I'd like to practice putting one of these builds together, but ...how would I use this thing? what is it?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Ci...rd-DIY-Kits-For-12AX7-21AU7-Tube/401202330319



As an example of something roughly similar, I put together this AMB Labs Sigma 11 linear power supply.  I got the circuit board from them and a few other parts, but had to source most of the stuff myself (including the transformer, chassis, IEC socket, umbilical, and a number of the board components).  It was fun and resulted in a rock-solid power supply that (all-in) cost less than half what a 'finished product' one would go for. But it was a lot of work too.  If you want to build something from a starting-out basis, I'd highly recommend a full and complete kit, or at bare minimum something like one of the AMB kits where there are at least very good instructions and even a forum to help if you get tripped up along the way.

https://www.amb.org/audio/


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen (Dec 6, 2020)

Sooooo....on a PITA scale of 1 to 10, I'm going to rate this volume pot swap as an 11.   The chassis hole has to be enlarged enough for the shoulder at the base of the Alps pot to fit through, otherwise its thickness puts the pot back far enough to bump hard into the 6SN7 socket base. Of course the thickness of the pot's shoulder is even thicker than the chassis steel, so now the shoulder sticks through the chassis hole but there's no way to tighten it down.  Perhaps there is some way around this, but I don't know what it is.  So I made my own "washer" to fill in around the protruding Alps shoulder, then was lucky enough to find one of the Kimber RCA lockwashers that I had in the parts bin to be the perfect size to go over my 'washer' and clamp the whole thing in place. Plus, after scraping off the chassis paint that surrounds the hole, this washer gives me a really nice ground path for the pot. Rock solid, finally.  Now on to the wiring. Found some Riken 1 megohms in the stash, so I'll replace the cheapy metal films that go to the same pin(s) as the pot wiring in the process...


----------



## therremans (Dec 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Sooooo....on a PITA scale of 1 to 10, I'm going to rate this volume pot swap as an 11.   The chassis hole has to be enlarged enough for the shoulder at the base of the Alps pot to fit through, otherwise its thickness puts the pot back far enough to bump hard into the 6SN7 socket base. Of course the thickness of the pot's shoulder is even thicker than the chassis steel, so now the shoulder sticks through the chassis hole but there's no way to tighten it down.  Perhaps there is some way around this, but I don't know what it is.  So I made my own "washer" to fill in around the protruding Alps shoulder, then was lucky enough to find one of the Kimber RCA lockwashers that I had in the parts bin to be the perfect size to go over my 'washer' and clamp the whole thing in place. Plus, after scraping the chassis paint that surrounds hole for the pot, this washer gives me a really nice ground for the pot. Rock solid, finally.  Now on to the wiring. Found some Riken 1 megohms in the stash, so I'll replace the cheapy metal films that go to the same pin(s) as the pot wiring in the process...


Nice! Yeah I'd agree.. it was a pain to get it all drilled out, level and tight. now you understand what I meant by making a washer. haha. Curious to hear your thoughts. I want to swap out some resistors soon.

I took a washer that had the exact outer dimensions and drilled out the center until it was only about 1mm or 2mm wide. That filled in that gap nicely and allowed it to be seated securely.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nice! Yeah I'd agree.. it was a pain to get it all drilled out, level and tight. now you understand what I meant by making a washer. haha.



Yeah, I was totally in mind of your suggestion, but there just wasn't enough clearance (at least in my amp) to leave the Alps shaft shoulder on the backside of the chassis.  Plus I could NOT get the inside faceplate screws to budge (someone jackhammered them in place) so without being able to remove the face-plate I had to Dremel the locator pin off the Alps and needed a way to make SURE it was fastened in with no chance of moving.  All solvable, just time consuming.  Now let's see if I can wire everything back together without blowing something up.  LOL!


----------



## therremans (Dec 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I was totally in mind of your suggestion, but there just wasn't enough clearance (at least in my amp) to leave the Alps shaft shoulder on the backside of the chassis.  Plus I could NOT get the inside faceplate screws to budge (someone jackhammered them in place) so without being able to remove the face-plate I had to Dremel the locator pin off the Alps and needed a way to make SURE it was fastened in with no chance of moving.  All solvable, just time consuming.  Now let's see if I can wire everything back together without blowing something up.  LOL!


Yes, I may have mentioned if you chop off the guide that you may avoid drilling out the hole for the shoulder + making a washer like me, but forgot how the clearance is such that the shoulder must be set in the inner front chassis plate. It is also the only way I could get it to fit past the socket. I may have more room now with these new sockets. I used a 10" long screwdriver made by NAPA that seems to grab and torque on anything presented to it. FYI, you will need to remove the faceplate if you ever want to swap out the power switch or input jack.


----------



## JKDJedi

Revisit Thy Pinnacles.. * 6J5
*


----------



## therremans (Dec 6, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Revisit Thy Pinnacles.. * 6J5
> *


I got a pair of these today from Langrex. Was just going to mention it and there they are. Also that 1953 Foton you linked me. 

Side note, Dan from Langrex is solid. One of my gec l63s has always had a hum. It doesn’t seem that it will go away and he wants to send me a replacement.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 6, 2020)

therremans said:


> I got a pair of these today from Langrex. Was just going to mention it and there they are. Also that 1953 Foton you linked me.
> 
> Side note, Dan from Langrex is solid. One of my gec l63s has always had a hum. It doesn’t seem that it will go away and he wants to send me a replacement.


That's so weird, one of mine was had a hum as well, I just let er cook for a bit, gone. And yes those guys are great, solid retailer. two thumbs up.  And you got the 53' already!? what, how, when???


----------



## therremans (Dec 6, 2020)

I mean I just ordered them.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I mean I just ordered them.


I was gonna say...lol ... very nice. 👍🍺


----------



## JKDJedi

Let us know what you think of the Pinnacles.. I like the punchiness of them, I probably couldn't tell them apart from the....oh no, I better not go there. Anyways I've been sitting on them for months and finally gonna give them a good weeks roll. 🙂


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Let us know what you think of the Pinnacles.. I like the punchiness of them, I probably couldn't tell them apart from the....oh no, I better not go there.



Go there!  Let's Go!   *Grabs the popcorn...*


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And you got the 53' already!? what, how, when???



You obviously didn't read through the shipping options. There's regular mail with free shipping, air mail for an extra $10, DHL for $25, and Flux Capacitor for $1000 (with guaranteed "same minute" delivery).


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 7, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> @therremans we will have to compare notes on this.  Deyan made me an adapter for the A2293s as well.  I just got my tubes in, waiting on the adapter.  we gotta let our pal shimacm know if this is a GO or not.  I can't ever see myself buying a GEC 6AS7G any time soon, so down the rabbit hole we go...



@SHIMACM  - My adapter came in over the weekend.  Just put it in this morning (2 x A2293/CV4079).  It is pretty fantastic!  Sounds awesome.  I would say a very refined sound.  I literally only have 15 mins of listening, but I feel it will be something that enhances the driver tube another step or so.  But long story short, it's working and I've got no issues from the start.   So far it is definitely a GO.

@therremans - i'm anxious to hear what your impressions will be and to give this a definite seal of approval.

@Deyan -  thank you again for another quality adapter set!  most appreciated as always!


----------



## SHIMACM (Dec 7, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Slade01, postagem: 16022293, membro: 513717"]
[USER = 522661] @SHIMACM [/ USER] - Meu adaptador veio no fim de semana. Basta colocá-lo nesta manhã (2 x A2293 / CV4079). É fantástico! Parece maravilhoso. Eu diria um som muito refinado. Eu literalmente tenho apenas 15 minutos de escuta, mas sinto que será algo que aumentará o tubo do driver mais ou menos. Mas, para encurtar a história, está funcionando e não tive problemas desde o início. Até agora, é definitivamente um GO.

[USER = 537425] @therremans [/ USER] - Estou ansioso para saber quais serão suas impressões e dar a isso um selo de aprovação definitivo.

[USER = 515868] @Deyan [/ USER] - obrigado novamente por outro conjunto de adaptadores de qualidade! mais apreciada como sempre!


[ANEXAR] 3756742 [/ ANEXAR]
[/CITAR]


Nuuuuuuuu. Que maravilha !!!!

Pessoal estou ansioso para ver se soa como um GAS 6as7g !!! Me atualize quando puder, por favor.


Este fim de semana estava me coçando olhando o site da Langrex para comprar ou não um GEC 6080.


Mas no final não tive coragem de pagar 150 libras esterlinas por ele.

É muito dinheiro em um tubo.

Hoje encontrei uma marca NOS Sylvania 6080 Gold no ebay por $ 35.

Não resisti, acabei comprando.

Eu ouvi muitos comentários dizendo que seria ainda melhor do que 5998.

Decidi pagar para ver.

Recebi uma oferta de $ 140 de um brasileiro no meu 5998.

Também não resisti, acabei vendendo.


Portanto, minha coleção de tubos de alimentação se resume aos seguintes tubos:


Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand (a caminho)
Chatham 6as7g
RCA 6as7g
Mullard 6080


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> Today I found a NOS Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand on ebay for $ 35.
> I couldn't resist, I ended up buying.
> I heard a lot of comments saying it would be even better than 5998.
> I decided to pay to see.



Now this I am looking forward to!  I've never had a 5998 (yet) but I would think that would be a bold claim.  Please keep us posted!   Regardless, the GB-6080 is a great tube and especially at that price.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> Now this I am looking forward to!  I've never had a 5998 (yet) but I would think that would be a bold claim.  Please keep us posted!   Regardless, the GB-6080 is a great tube and especially at that price.





Slade01 said:


> Now this I am looking forward to!  I've never had a 5998 (yet) but I would think that would be a bold claim.  Please keep us posted!   Regardless, the GB-6080 is a great tube and especially at that price.



So, at first I didn't test the TS5998 with the Melz 1578 and the GEC L63 (because both Melz and GEC haven't arrived yet).

I tested the TS with Raytheon vt231, RCA vt231 and KenRad vt231.

The best combination was with KenRad vt231.

It was the best combo I had so far, followed very closely by Chatham 6as7g + RCA vt231.

However, things changed when Sylvania vt231 arrived.

Paired with the Mullard 6080 this combo produced a much better sound than TS5998 and KenRad.

That is why I emphasize that synergy is fundamental.

That's why I sold the TS5998, even more at an offer of $ 140.

I am convinced that it is more worthwhile to find synergy in the system than just spending on very expensive valves.

Note: I know that a few posts ago I said I was enjoying the RCA 6as7g + Sylvania Vt231 combo more. However, now listening more, the sylvania paired with Mullard is really superior. It is a very balanced sound.


----------



## Deyan

Slade01 said:


> @SHIMACM  - My adapter came in over the weekend.  Just put it in this morning (2 x A2293/CV4079).  It is pretty fantastic!  Sounds awesome.  I would say a very refined sound.  I literally only have 15 mins of listening, but I feel it will be something that enhances the driver tube another step or so.  But long story short, it's working and I've got no issues from the start.   So far it is definitely a GO.
> 
> @therremans - i'm anxious to hear what your impressions will be and to give this a definite seal of approval.
> 
> @Deyan -  thank you again for another quality adapter set!  most appreciated as always!




Happy to be of service.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @SHIMACM  - My adapter came in over the weekend.  Just put it in this morning (2 x A2293/CV4079).  It is pretty fantastic!  Sounds awesome.  I would say a very refined sound.  I literally only have 15 mins of listening, but I feel it will be something that enhances the driver tube another step or so.  But long story short, it's working and I've got no issues from the start.   So far it is definitely a GO.
> 
> @therremans - i'm anxious to hear what your impressions will be and to give this a definite seal of approval.
> 
> @Deyan -  thank you again for another quality adapter set!  most appreciated as always!


Well..son of a b i t c ... what happened to my set up then!? o.o  might have to revisit this again. That's great news @Slade01  !!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Now this I am looking forward to!  I've never had a 5998 (yet) but I would think that would be a bold claim.  Please keep us posted!   Regardless, the GB-6080 is a great tube and especially at that price.


Everything is better than the 5998... #not (such bold claims to enlighten the fool heartedly) SMH and the world is flat too..


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> My adapter came in over the weekend. Just put it in this morning (2 x A2293/CV4079). It is pretty fantastic! Sounds awesome. I would say a very refined sound. I literally only have 15 mins of listening, but I feel it will be something that enhances the driver tube another step or so. But long story short, it's working and I've got no issues from the start. So far it is definitely a GO.


My tubes arrived over the weekend. Adapter is getting through customs in NYC now.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> My tubes arrived over the weekend. Adapter is getting through customs in NYC now.



That's great!  My CV4079 have a similar code.  Is it for the year (1981) and then (20th week) so May?  

@JKDJedi - get that adapter!  You gotta GEC it out with these and your L63s. Double adapters...double tubes.  Quadruple Trouble.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Everything is better than the 5998... #not (such bold claims to enlighten the fool heartedly) SMH and the world is flat too..



In all seriousness though - does the 5998 best the bendix (or higher end 6080s) when it comes to the bass/sub-bass extensions?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> That's great!  My CV4079 have a similar code.  Is it for the year (1981) and then (20th week) so May?
> 
> @JKDJedi - get that adapter!  You gotta GEC it out with these and your L63s. Double adapters...double tubes.  Quadruple Trouble.


I think my amp is wonky with that setup, maybe I had the wrong tubes this whole time? Because the ones I had look nothing like those. (on the outside) inside might of been the same. I'm gonna check out the old pics of them later on. That or @Deyan finally figured it out because the one he made for me didn't work. Oh well.. happy it's working for you guys!!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I think my amp is wonky with that setup, maybe I had the wrong tubes this whole time? Because the ones I had look nothing like those. (on the outside) inside might of been the same. I'm gonna check out the old pics of them later on. That or @Deyan finally figured it out because the one he made for me didn't work. Oh well.. happy it's working for you guys!!



Cool -- yeah of note that my amp is completely stock if it needs to be mentioned.  I'm sure @therremans has his amp modded a bit so it would be good test across the gamut.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> In all seriousness though - does the 5998 best the bendix (or higher end 6080s) when it comes to the bass/sub-bass extensions?


No and that’s probably the downfall of the 5998. It’s detailed, powerful sound and articulate but does now bring out low end extension. However if you pair it with output tubes that help bring out low end, it’s better. The right combo of course changes everything and the 5998 is a great one to own.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> In all seriousness though - does the 5998 best the bendix (or higher end 6080s) when it comes to the bass/sub-bass extensions?


Bendix would be the contender (it is the contender) here in the bass department. Bendix is the 6080 top tier tube. No question.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Cool -- yeah of note that my amp is completely stock if it needs to be mentioned.  I'm sure @therremans has his amp modded a bit so it would be good test across the gamut.


Mods won’t matter and I’m certain it will work fine, like yours.


JKDJedi said:


> I think my amp is wonky with that setup, maybe I had the wrong tubes this whole time?


You know that makes a lot of sense now.. the wrong tubes. Because I thought you had the same one channel not working while using a Chinese adapter. Did you buy a nos pair from Langrex? If not, you should. If you did, write him to confirm it’s the right tube.


----------



## Deyan

JKDJedi said:


> I think my amp is wonky with that setup, maybe I had the wrong tubes this whole time? Because the ones I had look nothing like those. (on the outside) inside might of been the same. I'm gonna check out the old pics of them later on. That or @Deyan finally figured it out because the one he made for me didn't work. Oh well.. happy it's working for you guys!!




Which one didn't work???


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> Which one didn't work???


the dual Gec adapter that these guys are using, this was a year ago, maybe two? Not sure, might have to dig through my messages to know for sure..


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Mods won’t matter and I’m certain it will work fine, like yours.
> 
> You know that makes a lot of sense now.. the wrong tubes. Because I thought you had the same one channel not working while using a Chinese adapter. Did you buy a nos pair from Langrex? If not, you should. If you did, write him to confirm it’s the right tube.


This was a while back.. lol, a while while back.. I'd have to look up my time stamps on the photos I took


----------



## Deyan

The Cv4079 ones??


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> Which one didn't work???



The one where user error was involved.


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> The one where user error was involved.



That one got remade so that's not it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> The Cv4079 ones??


These... most likely the tubes .. (October 2019) I'd switch the tubes left to right and right to left and still the same channel would not work. So I don't know... there I go again ....Debby Downers ...😂😂
Sorry guys.... nothing to see here... as you were ..


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 7, 2020)

Deyan said:


> That one got remade so that's not it.


Probably what Bill said .. dumb user error, how hard is it to stick that in there, probably would've been easier to find if it had hair around it.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Probably what Bill said .. dumb user error, how hard is it to stick that in there, probably would've been easier to find if it had hair around it.   😂


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


😝😂😝😂😝😂😝😂😐😂😂🤣🤣🤣😏 nearly fell off my chair here at work..


----------



## Deyan

So in the end did we came to a closure of the issue?? I do recall something but i don't remember what happened in the end.


----------



## SHIMACM (Dec 7, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Everything is better than the 5998... #not (such bold claims to enlighten the fool heartedly) SMH and the world is flat too..



We have to take into account that personal preferences here are being taken into account.

I am not a bass player.

I prefer a sound that involves me emotionally.

Right now I'm listening to the Chatham 6as7g + RCA vt231 combo and the involvement with the music is divine.

I am listening to Diana Krall and the sensation I get is that I can smell her perfume because I am sitting 1 meter away from where she is singing. I can hear all the instruments in an extremely harmonic way on a huge, deep and holographic stage with her extremely silky and seductive voice expanding in the air.

I will be very honest, I did not achieve this with the TS5998..

So it's not about flat land here, but facts about my musical preferences. Otherwise I would not have sold the TS5998.

Regarding the Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand, some comments caught my attention, such as:









So I want to mix the Sylvania 6080 GB with my valve drives to see if I can find another synergistic combination.

If it doesn't fit my taste, I'll sell it.

But I have a good feeling about it.

I know that there are many who defend a certain tube as if it were their football team.

But I am a skeptic and I am neither an earth planner nor a pipe seller.

I bought the TS5998 thinking it would be my favorite tube, after so many positive comments about it.

Only it wasn't like that.

After subjecting him to the real test for me "my ears" he didn't get me emotionally involved with music like other tubes did.

The bass and subwoofer was better, but that's not much for me.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> We have to take into account that personal preferences here are being taken into account.
> 
> I am not a bass player.
> 
> ...


Your good, some prefer laid back over dynamic accurate tubes. Think you'll like the Sylvania. Congrats. 🙂


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, in relation to the CV4079 valves is there a problem using them on Darkvoice? Am I at risk of spoiling it? I saw on the Langrex website two different types of CV4079, one cheaper than the other. is there a difference between them?


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, in relation to the CV4079 valves is there a problem using them on Darkvoice? Am I at risk of spoiling it? I saw on the Langrex website two different types of CV4079, one cheaper than the other. is there a difference between them?



I only see one version of them on the Langrex site.  Where are you seeing two types?  I cannot attest to the Langrex versions...I bought my CV4079 from a private seller.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I only see one version of them on the Langrex site.  Where are you seeing two types?  I cannot attest to the Langrex versions...I bought my CV4079 from a private seller.


Can you post more pics of this setup please?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Can you post more pics of this setup please?



i'll post in a bit.  i will try to go for the quadruple trouble configuration (dual L63 and dual CV4079).  will GEC all out....


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> We have to take into account that personal preferences here are being taken into account.
> 
> I am not a bass player.
> 
> ...


The wonderful thing about tubes is that they are just one variable in the total equation of sound that enters our ears. You may have a completely developed and cooked opinion about your entire tube collection, which pair together nicely, the preferred music for each pairing, etc. Now that is all nice and fine, actually ideal and where we all eventually end up, _until _you bring change into the equation.

One day you bring home a new amp, or a new set of headphones or possibly even a new pair of pads and suddenly you have to rework all of your opinions. I agree that the Tung Sol 5998 is expensive and if you sold it for $140, that was probably a good move on your part. You have other combinations that will give you the same or more satisfaction. My point is that a tube is just a variable, so any well regarded tube has its place in a collection. I would argue this is even more important with power tubes. I don't ever see me selling mine as I typically like what it does for detail, clarity and resolution. Now that I have Beyerdynamic 1990DT and Dekoni pads, the 5998 now gets a little more use than it did previously on my Sennheiser HD6XX.

I also find it very fun hunting down the cheapest tubes, typically rebrands and then hearing how great I can get them to sound.


----------



## therremans (Dec 8, 2020)

Okay so the voltage regulator arrived. Seems built well and pretty solid for the money. My desk is very small as I live in a studio, the regulator will be placed away on the ground. I have a Kill-o-watt that I used to display the real time voltage output to the Darkvoice. So far it hasn't fluctuated much but I will update if this becomes a problem later on. It is normal for fluctuation on the power grid, so I expect some but has been pretty consistently at 110v. Output under load: ~110v, 47 watts, .47 amps.






My mouser order arrived! Yes, that is an empty box. It is what was sent to me. I cracked the seal myself.
Also, don't go economy shipping, it took weeks to get here.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Okay so the voltage regulator arrived. Seems built well and pretty solid for the money. My desk is very small as I live in a studio, the regulator will be placed away on the ground. I have a Kill-o-watt that I used to display the real time voltage output to the Darkvoice. So far it hasn't fluctuated much but I will update if this becomes a problem later on. It is normal for fluctuation on the power grid, so I expect some but has been pretty consistently at 110v output under load.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL..they sent you an empty box!?


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> I only see one version of them on the Langrex site.  Where are you seeing two types?  I cannot attest to the Langrex versions...I bought my CV4079 from a private seller.



Excuse me. There is only one version. I must be going crazy. lol


----------



## SHIMACM

I bought 4 CV4079 and the adapters from Deyan. Now it's waiting. I was so excited that I decided to have a couple of CV4079 reserves.


----------



## therremans (Dec 8, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> LOL..they sent you an empty box!?


Yes, I was on the phone when I ripped it open and walked away to do something else. Came back, pulled the tabs open and saw it was empty.. made sure I didn't somehow misplace it. But nothing, no stroke. I even opened the trash can. The good thing is I called customer support and we both laughed about the situation, she was apologetic and great with me about it. she is sending another order by 2-day.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Okay so the voltage regulator arrived. Seems built well and pretty solid for the money. My desk is very small as I live in a studio, the regulator will be placed away on the ground. I have a Kill-o-watt that I used to display the real time voltage output to the Darkvoice. So far it hasn't fluctuated much but I will update if this becomes a problem later on. It is normal for fluctuation on the power grid, so I expect some but has been pretty consistently at 110v. Output under load: ~110v, 47 watts, .47 amps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what you get for specifying 'air' shipment.   

So, any perceptible sonic changes with the variac in the chain?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> That's what you get for specifying 'air' shipment.
> 
> So, any perceptible sonic changes with the variac in the chain?


No sonic changes that are immediately apparent. But I can say my Darkvoice is sounding it’s best. I can talk myself into thinking it sounds better and possibly has slightly less distortion, but I have no proof to say this. It’s working well and will stay in the chain. So how did yours workout?


----------



## Deceneu808

What do you guys recommend I get ? The itch is starting again

https://bit.ly/3oEN56v
https://bit.ly/2JGFp4S
https://bit.ly/3gsV8jH or
https://bit.ly/3qCzm1I


----------



## DeweyCH

This is probably a stupid question but does changing the power tube change the volume? My Darkvoice is crazy loud, like, I can't crank it past 7 o'clock without it getting into uncomfortably loud levels, and this on headphones with 300 or 600 ohm resistance.

Power tube is an old RCA Jan and pre tube is a Black Treasure.


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> This is probably a stupid question but does changing the power tube change the volume? My Darkvoice is crazy loud, like, I can't crank it past 7 o'clock without it getting into uncomfortably loud levels, and this on headphones with 300 or 600 ohm resistance.
> 
> Power tube is an old RCA Jan and pre tube is a Black Treasure.




I run a iFi Zen DAC in variable mode output in to the DV with a Mullard 6080 & a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA and with my DT880 600 Ohm I find myself in the 12-1 o clock on the volume with the DAC set to about 70-75% and still they sound a bit meh. Going higher on the DAC will cause distortion even at low volume and the DV beyond 1 o clock stops going up in volume. With my DT770 80 Ohms I find myself in the same range of volume, don't know why. Maybe it's the Dekoni pads but they sound very good. Switching over to the Sennheisers for 660s 9-10 o clock is LOUD and the 600s 10-11 o clock for very loud.

What headphones are you using ?


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> I run a iFi Zen DAC in variable mode output in to the DV with a Mullard 6080 & a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA and with my DT880 600 Ohm I find myself in the 12-1 o clock on the volume with the DAC set to about 70-75% and still they sound a bit meh. Going higher on the DAC will cause distortion even at low volume and the DV beyond 1 o clock stops going up in volume. With my DT770 80 Ohms I find myself in the same range of volume, don't know why. Maybe it's the Dekoni pads but they sound very good. Switching over to the Sennheisers for 660s 9-10 o clock is LOUD and the 600s 10-11 o clock for very loud.
> 
> What headphones are you using ?


The headphones I use with the DV are Beyer T1.2s and two different flavors of AKG K240 Sextetts (mid- and late-production).


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Can you post more pics of this setup please?





Slade01 said:


> i'll post in a bit.  i will try to go for the quadruple trouble configuration (dual L63 and dual CV4079).  will GEC all out....



@JKDJedi thanks for prompting me to do this...so we make another interesting discovery - and may need @bcowen and @therremans 's technical minds on this.   I did run into an issue when running the Quadruple Trouble Setup -- this is actually TROUBLE.  Essentially, using 2 adapters at the same causes massive feedback/hum/noise.   I swapped out the L63s for other 6J5s, etc, and it is definitely not the tubes.  I can only conclude for now that it is due to the use of using both dual adapters at the same time.  The CV4079 tubes sound fine when just using regular 6sn7 or single tube adapter (I used a 7N7 to 6SN7).    Just thought anyone looking to do run it this way (2 dual adapters) - there are issues involved.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> No sonic changes that are immediately apparent. But I can say my Darkvoice is sounding it’s best. I can talk myself into thinking it sounds better and possibly has slightly less distortion, but I have no proof to say this. It’s working well and will stay in the chain. So how did yours workout?



My experience was very similar -- sonic changes were very minor if even truly there.  Seemed to me like there was a slight loss of macrodynamics and perhaps a touch less bass slam, but again it was so minor if I'd had to pick out which was which in a blind fashion, I have no confidence I'd be able to.  My preconceived notions led me to believe there would be a significant_ negative_ sonic change by inserting yet another component in the electrical path.  I think the variac I have (which looks to be quite similar to yours) is pretty well made for the price (after all, it's just a big hunkin' coil of copper at its core), but at the end its still an inexpensive, seriously cost constrained Made-in-China thingie.  I bought mine a while back for the purpose of restoring tube testers so I would have a set voltage for calibration purposes, and only threw it in front of the DV as a test after reading about the 100v transformer thing.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 9, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> This is probably a stupid question but does changing the power tube change the volume? My Darkvoice is crazy loud, like, I can't crank it past 7 o'clock without it getting into uncomfortably loud levels, and this on headphones with 300 or 600 ohm resistance.
> 
> Power tube is an old RCA Jan and pre tube is a Black Treasure.



Not a stupid question at all as my DV has the same affliction.  The way the knob is oriented on mine, full counterclockwise rotation is at the 6:00 mark, and 7:00 is loud LOUD.  The power tube has a little impact on this, but it's not substantial --  a 5998 makes 6:45 very loud, where an RCA 6AS7GA makes 7:15 very loud.  As I've seen few others bring this issue up, I suspect it's the volume pot itself.  The stock pot is pretty cheap, and may have extreme manufacturing tolerance issues.  I'm in the middle of changing my pot to a 100k Alps.  I'm not doing a shunt or voltage divider (at least at this point) as I want to see what just changing the pot to one of the same value but much higher quality will do.  I'll report back what changes result once I get done.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi thanks for prompting me to do this...so we make another interesting discovery - and may need @bcowen and @therremans 's technical minds on this.   I did run into an issue when running the Quadruple Trouble Setup -- this is actually TROUBLE.  Essentially, using 2 adapters at the same causes massive feedback/hum/noise.   I swapped out the L63s for other 6J5s, etc, and it is definitely not the tubes.  I can only conclude for now that it is due to the use of using both dual adapters at the same time.  The CV4079 tubes sound fine when just using regular 6sn7 or single tube adapter (I used a 7N7 to 6SN7).    Just thought anyone looking to do run it this way (2 dual adapters) - there are issues involved.



Interesting.  I have a pair of CV4079's on the way so I'll see what happens with mine. I've also added the cap bypasses to the cathode resistors (Fitz mod).  Have no idea if that has anything to do with it or not, but I'll post back once the tubes arrive.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Not a stupid question at all as my DV has the same affliction.  The way the knob is oriented on mine, full counterclockwise rotation is at the 6:00 mark, and 7:00 is loud LOUD.  The power tube has a little impact on this, but it's not substantial --  a 5998 makes 6:45 very loud, where an RCA 6AS7GA makes 7:15 very loud.  As I've seen few others bring this issue up, I suspect it's the volume pot itself.  The stock pot is pretty cheap, and may have extreme manufacturing tolerance issues.  I'm in the middle of changing my pot to a 100k Alps.  I'm not doing a shunt or voltage divider (at least at this point) as I want to see what just changing the pot to one of the same value but much higher quality will do.  I'll report back what changes result once I get done.


Awesome, thanks for the confirmation and look forward to seeing the results.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> What do you guys recommend I get ? The itch is starting again
> 
> https://bit.ly/3oEN56v
> https://bit.ly/2JGFp4S
> ...



A _true_ audiophile would get one of each.     

Seriously, that's a _really_ good price on an MOV (pre-GEC) B65.  If it were me and I was only going to get one, that would be it.  I'm not a fan of the flat ladder plate Raytheon (I like the T-plate version much better), but that's just me.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> A _true_ audiophile would get one of each.
> 
> Seriously, that's a _really_ good price on an MOV (pre-GEC) B65.  If it were me and I was only going to get one, that would be it.  I'm not a fan of the flat ladder plate Raytheon (I like the T-plate version much better), but that's just me.


Since I've wandered into this thread, do you have any thoughts on my tubes? Power tube is an RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G and the pre tube is the Shuguang Black Treasure. I also have a Russian-made Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB.

My tube-knowledge is severely lacking.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Since I've wandered into this thread, do you have any thoughts on my tubes? Power tube is an RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G and the pre tube is the Shuguang Black Treasure. I also have a Russian-made Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB.
> 
> My tube-knowledge is severely lacking.



That's like asking which car you should buy.   Kidding of course, but there's just so many variables and possibilities that it's an impossible question to answer without having some idea of what you're looking for.  Do you know what date your RCA is?  Older the better for those.  And I've never heard the Shuguang so can't offer any comparative comments on it. Best thing is to let us know what you like (or don't like, or want to try and improve) with your current tubes, and what budget you have in mind.  I can confidently recommend a Western Electric 421A to replace the RCA, but if $150+ churns your stomach, then it's a rather pointless recommendation.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That's like asking which car you should buy.   Kidding of course, but there's just so many variables and possibilities that it's an impossible question to answer without having some idea of what you're looking for.  Do you know what date your RCA is?  Older the better for those.  And I've never heard the Shuguang so can't offer any comparative comments on it. Best thing is to let us know what you like (or don't like, or want to try and improve) with your current tubes, and what budget you have in mind.  I can confidently recommend a Western Electric 421A to replace the RCA, but if $150+ churns your stomach, then it's a rather pointless recommendation.


I'm not sure how old the RCA is. The box says "Accptd. Aug. 1951," but I'm not sure if that's the date it was made or the date a patent was granted.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I'm not sure how old the RCA is. The box says "Accptd. Aug. 1951," but I'm not sure if that's the date it was made or the date a patent was granted.



That would be the military acceptance date for a JAN tube, so the tube was actually made in or prior to August 1951.  A good thing, and that's probably a great representative of that particular tube type and manufacturer.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Since I've wandered into this thread, do you have any thoughts on my tubes? Power tube is an RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G and the pre tube is the Shuguang Black Treasure. I also have a Russian-made Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB.
> 
> My tube-knowledge is severely lacking.


It all depends on your level of sanity. Yeah, those tubes will work. But how bad do you want to try every tube made by every manufacturer? Are you a collector? Are you an all stock is best kind of guy? But seriously keep the RCA, try another 6sn7 if you want and start there. Also do a lot of reading on these forums.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> It all depends on your level of sanity. Yeah, those tubes will work. But how bad do you want to try every tube made by every manufacturer? Are you a collector? Are you an all stock is best kind of guy? But seriously keep the RCA, try another 6sn7 if you want and start there. Also do a lot of reading on these forums.


My level of sanity fluctuates depending on how much my toddler sleeps. I don't really want to try everything, and tube collecting seems extremely dangerous to both my fluctuating sanity and my marriage. I'll play around with some other 6sn7s over the course of time, and have read/will continue to read threads like this one for advice and recs.

Thanks!


----------



## therremans (Dec 9, 2020)

bcowen said:


> My experience was very similar -- sonic changes were very minor if even truly there.  Seemed to me like there was a slight loss of macrodynamics and perhaps a touch less bass slam, but again it was so minor if I'd had to pick out which was which in a blind fashion, I have no confidence I'd be able to.  My preconceived notions led me to believe there would be a significant_ negative_ sonic change by inserting yet another component in the electrical path.  I think the variac I have (which looks to be quite similar to yours) is pretty well made for the price (after all, it's just a big hunkin' coil of copper at its core), but at the end its still an inexpensive, seriously cost constrained Made-in-China thingie.  I bought mine a while back for the purpose of restoring tube testers so I would have a set voltage for calibration purposes, and only threw it in front of the DV as a test after reading about the 100v transformer thing.


Maybe try the Variac again. Was listening last night with the bendix + zenith 6j5 and then switched to that little rca “dumont” I’ve been loving so much. Sound was in top form, bass impact was solid as ever and sometimes the highs even more detailed than I remembered. But I’m also still adjusting to new headphones and the dt1990 highs are superior to the hd6xx. Any changes could just as well be in my head or not related to the Variac. I can just say it doesn’t sound any worse.

The meter on the unit is way off and I’m glad I didn’t rely on it. Yes, It’s cheap Chinese stuff and I’d also argue it could be worse than just running the DV at ~120v. But so far I’m preferring the 110v pairing. The Variac is quiet/silent so that isn’t a problem.

Haha here’s my line from the wall.. 😕
Wall Power > Tripp-Lite isobar 428 > APC Line-R 1200 > Variac > KillaWatt > Darkvoice


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> My level of sanity fluctuates depending on how much my toddler sleeps. I don't really want to try everything, and tube collecting seems extremely dangerous to both my fluctuating sanity and my marriage. I'll play around with some other 6sn7s over the course of time, and have read/will continue to read threads like this one for advice and recs.
> 
> Thanks!



If you had budget in mind for spending, or indications to what type of music you want your tubes to highlight the best, or some preference for vocals or bass, or some aspect of the sound that is a must have for you, indicators of that nature can help us give you recommendations as well - at least get you to a ball park of options to consider.  

Yeah, tube rolling can run deep for sure.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Maybe try the Variac again. Was listening last night with the bendix + zenith 6j5 and then switched to that little rca “dumont” I’ve been loving so much. Sound was in top form, bass impact was solid as ever and sometimes the highs even more detailed than I remembered. But I’m also still adjusting to new headphones and the dt1990 highs are superior to the hd6xx. Any changes could just as well be in my head or not related to the Variac. I can just say it doesn’t sound any worse.
> 
> The meter on the unit is way off and I’m glad I didn’t rely on it. Yes, It’s cheap Chinese stuff and I’d also argue it could be worse than just running the DV at 116v. But so far I’m preferring the 110v pairing. The Variac is quiet/silent so that isn’t a problem.
> 
> ...



I'll give it another whirl.

I'm going from a good wire-clamp Leviton outlet to a pair of Shunyata Hydras (one for digital, one for the amp/Loki) into the components.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00134AW5K/ref=afx_dp_prime_egress?ie=UTF8&fpl=fresh&th=1






Old pic, but roughly the same setup:


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi thanks for prompting me to do this...so we make another interesting discovery - and may need @bcowen and @therremans 's technical minds on this.   I did run into an issue when running the Quadruple Trouble Setup -- this is actually TROUBLE.  Essentially, using 2 adapters at the same causes massive feedback/hum/noise.   I swapped out the L63s for other 6J5s, etc, and it is definitely not the tubes.  I can only conclude for now that it is due to the use of using both dual adapters at the same time.  The CV4079 tubes sound fine when just using regular 6sn7 or single tube adapter (I used a 7N7 to 6SN7).    Just thought anyone looking to do run it this way (2 dual adapters) - there are issues involved.


Sorry to hear, my adapter may arrive today and ill run a variety of tubes and let you know how it works out


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> If you had budget in mind for spending, or indications to what type of music you want your tubes to highlight the best, or some preference for vocals or bass, or some aspect of the sound that is a must have for you, indicators of that nature can help us give you recommendations as well - at least get you to a ball park of options to consider.
> 
> Yeah, tube rolling can run deep for sure.


I like a clean sound, as much as possible. My Beyers are great because while they're a little bright on SS amplification, they're exceptionally clear - I want detail to the point where my face falls off.

Mostly listen to prog and classic rock, some nerdy alt-rock (Ben Folds, They Might Be Giants, etc.) along with video game soundtracks and the occasional trumpet-led jazz performance.

I'm not hugely concerned about bass quantity, but I want it to be clear. I love hearing the pluck of a finger on a string.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I like a clean sound, as much as possible. My Beyers are great because while they're a little bright on SS amplification, they're exceptionally clear - I want detail to the point where my face falls off.
> 
> Mostly listen to prog and classic rock, some nerdy alt-rock (Ben Folds, They Might Be Giants, etc.) along with video game soundtracks and the occasional trumpet-led jazz performance.
> 
> I'm not hugely concerned about bass quantity, but I want it to be clear. I love hearing the pluck of a finger on a string.


You’ll likely have to hunt these down over time. DM me if you ever need to know if you’re overpaying or not.
Power tubes: Chatham 6as7g, Mullard 6080, Tung-Sol/Chatham 5998

Output tubes: 6sn7: RCA VT-231, National Union Black or gray glass. These guys will know more about 6sn7s than me. Have you considered using any adapters? 6j5, 6f8g try first.. then maybe 7193, 7n7, 7a4


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> You’ll likely have to hunt these down over time. DM me if you ever need to know if you’re overpaying or not.
> Power tubes: Chatham 6as7g, Mullard 6080, Tung-Sol/Chatham 5998
> 
> Output tubes: 6sn7: RCA VT-231, National Union Black or gray glass. These guys will know more about 6sn7s than me. Have you considered using any adapters? 6j5, 6f8g try first.. then maybe 7193, 7n7, 7a4


Thank you very much! I haven't considered using any adapters, but I do see the advice pop up occasionally. Would you say a dual-tube adapter is worth considering, or am I better off going basically from the 6sn7 to a different single tube type?


----------



## Deceneu808

What's the 


bcowen said:


> A _true_ audiophile would get one of each.
> 
> Seriously, that's a _really_ good price on an MOV (pre-GEC) B65.  If it were me and I was only going to get one, that would be it.  I'm not a fan of the flat ladder plate Raytheon (I like the T-plate version much better), but that's just me.


What's the most mid forward one ? Or the warmest ? I'll probably end buying the B65 or the Sylvania


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> You’ll likely have to hunt these down over time. DM me if you ever need to know if you’re overpaying or not.
> Power tubes: Chatham 6as7g, Mullard 6080, Tung-Sol/Chatham 5998
> 
> Output tubes: 6sn7: RCA VT-231, National Union Black or gray glass. These guys will know more about 6sn7s than me. Have you considered using any adapters? 6j5, 6f8g try first.. then maybe 7193, 7n7, 7a4



Does your TungSol 6F8G have round plates or flat ladder plates?  I've seen both configurations. I assume the round plate versions are better, but we all know where assumptions  lead...


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> What's the
> 
> What's the most mid forward one ? Or the warmest ? I'll probably end buying the B65 or the Sylvania



Of the ones you listed, the Raytheon would be the most mid-forward.  If you want _really_ mid-forward sound, get a Melz 6N8S (non-1578).  Very nice sounding tube and puts the mids front and center.  Note of caution though -- many of the vintage Melz (as well as the Foton 6N8S's) might require the pins to be resoldered.  That a possibility for you?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...762168?hash=item4db2c562f8:g:op4AAOSw0M9fVKND


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Does your TungSol 6F8G have round plates or flat ladder plates?  I've seen both configurations. I assume the round plate versions are better, but we all know where assumptions  lead...


I can’t say which I prefer as I haven’t owned the round plates in a 6F8G/VT-99. I do however have round plates on the 6C8G/VT-163. Yes, people seem to automatically assume the round plate is better and I don’t know why. Other than the bias was created by the Tung Sol VT-231 rp as it’s outrageously expensive and people are trying to get that tube sound for less money. If it’s expensive it must be the superior tube right?

I’ll let you know when I get a VT-99 round plate. But I have read the flat/ladder has better detailed low and high end. So I may be in the camp that prefers the flat plates. Yes, I’ve read some experiences of people who own both and prefer the flat.

The Tung sol VT-163 rp just doesn’t have the detailed sparkle the VT-99 flat plate has, same goes with my National Union VT-99 rp’s.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Thank you very much! I haven't considered using any adapters, but I do see the advice pop up occasionally. Would you say a dual-tube adapter is worth considering, or am I better off going basically from the 6sn7 to a different single tube type?


6sn7s are almost always more money. Unless you pickup a rebrand, etc. or score a good deal. I’d pickup a 6f8g to 6sn7 and a 6j5 to 6sn7 adapter to have on hand while you shop around for tubes to try out


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> What do you guys recommend I get ? The itch is starting again
> 
> https://bit.ly/3oEN56v
> https://bit.ly/2JGFp4S
> ...


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brimar-6...086180?hash=item217f9f9764:g:TFwAAOSwDTdfSnWt


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> If you had budget in mind for spending, or indications to what type of music you want your tubes to highlight the best, or some preference for vocals or bass, or some aspect of the sound that is a must have for you, indicators of that nature can help us give you recommendations as well - at least get you to a ball park of options to consider.
> 
> Yeah, tube rolling can run deep for sure.


Tell me about it.. sigh


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Tell me about it.. sigh



Listen, if Vincent Vega can afford a 5 dollar shake and the screwin' Madman...he could afford said Brimar and B65 tubes....


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> Listen, if Vincent Vega can afford a 5 dollar shake and the screwin' Madman...he could afford said Brimar and B65 tubes....


You know what they call a 6SN7 tube in France?

Le 6SN7 tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> You know what they call a 6SN7 tube in France?
> 
> Le 6SN7 tube.


🤣🤣


----------



## DeweyCH

With regards to my initial issue - the HOLY CRAP THIS IS LOUD thing - I've ordered an Alps 50k Blue pot. I hope that will give me the volume control I want. I'll probably do the pre-out mod at the same time.


----------



## therremans

Also if anyone else needs ALPS blue pots or alps pcb boards, prototype board, resistors.. I have them. (Ordered too many)


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 9, 2020)

The little organ guys just arrived .. let's see what the hype is with these guys..


Edit: well they're not NOS as advertised, kinda figured that would be the case, and one is severely imbalanced.. lol.. another tube to the questionable box collection  So one tube is good....yay! 

Edit 2: Holy Soundstages!! This bitch is wide!!


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> The little organ guys just arrived .. let's see what the hype is with these guys..
> 
> Edit: well they're not NOS as advertised, kinda figured that would be the case, and one is severely imbalanced.. lol.. another tube to the questionable box collection  So one tube is good....yay!
> 
> Edit 2: Holy Soundstages!! This bitch is wide!!


Isn't that a little short for a pre tube?


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Isn't that a little short for a pre tube?


Short haha yeah, some are. This is one that’s been performing well.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Short haha yeah, some are. This is one that’s been performing well.


(look who's standing on his amp)


----------



## DeweyCH

BTW do you find it necessary to have that fan over yours? I could totally see needing that given the raw heat these suckers put off


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> BTW do you find it necessary to have that fan over yours? I could totally see needing that given the raw heat these suckers put off


Not necessary at all but I use it. I figure it can’t hurt and it runs on USB from my monitor.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The little organ guys just arrived .. let's see what the hype is with these guys..
> 
> Edit: well they're not NOS as advertised, kinda figured that would be the case, and one is severely imbalanced.. lol.. another tube to the questionable box collection  So one tube is good....yay!
> 
> Edit 2: Holy Soundstages!! This bitch is wide!!



Guess you'd need at least a pair of those to run this:








https://www.thediapason.com/cover-feature-80

Sorry to go grossly off-topic here, but......I'm a Carolina fan and subsequently required to hate Duke University. But the Duke Chapel (bad misnomer...grand cathedral is more like it) is beyond incredible. This 'chapel' has 3 organs, and the biggest one has over 5k pipes with 61 of those being 32'.  Can you say earth-shaking bass?  LOL!  They have a non-denominational Christmas Eve service every year that's open to the public, and normally when the service is over and most people have filed out the organist will open that thing up and let it rip.  If you don't turn into one giant goose-bump with Noel Suisse at 105 dB and the floor doing the earthquake thing under your feet, then there's a high probability you're dead.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> BTW do you find it necessary to have that fan over yours? I could totally see needing that given the raw heat these suckers put off



These are the audiophile-approved versions, just FYI.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> These are the audiophile-approved versions, just FYI.


They must be the fan industry's version of Schiit.


----------



## sennfan83261

DeweyCH said:


> Isn't that a little short for a pre tube?


It's not the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Not necessary at all but I use it. I figure it can’t hurt and it runs on USB from my monitor.


That would be a sick mod for the darkvoice, one of them led lit computer cooling fans Maybe right underneath it so that the bottom is lit up ..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That would be a sick mod for the darkvoice, one of them led lit computer cooling fans Maybe right underneath it so that the bottom is lit up ..



Quit giving me stupid ideas. You know how gullible I am.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> That would be a sick mod for the darkvoice, one of them led lit computer cooling fans Maybe right underneath it so that the bottom is lit up ..



No worries bro.  @bcowen has got _*this*_.  "He's designing a new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain."


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> No worries bro.  @bcowen has got _*this*_.  "He's designing a new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain."


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> No worries bro.  @bcowen has got _*this*_.  "He's designing a new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain."


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> No worries bro.  @bcowen has got _*this*_.  "He's designing a new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain."


Good, I hate when my unobtanium is tainted by the touch of another man


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 9, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Isn't that a little short for a pre tube?


They're more of a surprise, did really well on my other amp, and great on the Darkvoice. I'm sending them back. If youradvertising 98%, send me a 98% tube dammit.

Edit; Contacted another vendor who assured me his tubes are NOS, so.. lets try this again!


----------



## DeweyCH

Ugh nobody gets my stormtrooper joke. I'm sad now.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Good, I hate when my unobtanium is tainted by the touch of another man



I agree.  Used unobtanium is just....icky.  _  _


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brimar-6...086180?hash=item217f9f9764:g:TFwAAOSwDTdfSnWt


This guy doesn't ship to my country. Found these instead https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERY-RAR...4374c4401:g:~bIAAOSwgjFfy4Tq&autorefresh=true


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, can anyone here tell if they've heard a driver tube better than p GEC L63? Mine arrived today, too bad the adapters will take a long time ...


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, can anyone here tell if they've heard a driver tube better than p GEC L63? Mine arrived today, too bad the adapters will take a long time ...



Better?  Can't say, at least for you.  Different?  Yes.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, can anyone here tell if they've heard a driver tube better than p GEC L63? Mine arrived today, too bad the adapters will take a long time ...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>




LOL!!


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, can anyone here tell if they've heard a driver tube better than p GEC L63? Mine arrived today, too bad the adapters will take a long time ...


C’mon man haha. Better is always subjective, especially with tubes. On my setup, they do the neutral thing well.. But I don’t always want that.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 11, 2020)

therremans said:


> C’mon man haha. Better is always subjective, especially with tubes. On my setup, they do the neutral thing well.. But I don’t always want that.


His English is a little broken and might have gotten lost in translation, maybe he meant what's a good alternative, and like you suggested, that's a whole other can of worms. Maybe a pair of 6C5G metal mesh caged, 6C5 tin cans, 6J5 tin cans, Coke bottle L63, and I just got wind of the 6*L*5... what's that all about? @therremans @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> His English is a little broken and might have gotten lost in translation, maybe he meant what's a good alternative, and like you suggested, that's a whole other can of worms. Maybe a pair of 6C5G metal mesh caged, 6C5 tin cans, 6J5 tin cans, Coke bottle L63, and I just got wind of the 6*L*5... what's that all about? @therremans @bcowen



6*L*5? *STOP IT!! * Just quit already, damnit. 

Oh, wait...I'm not buying any more tubes.  Nevermind.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> 6*L*5? *STOP IT!! * Just quit already, damnit.
> 
> Oh, wait...I'm not buying any more tubes.  Nevermind.


seem to be close enough.. who's gonna be first?.. @bcowen ?


----------



## JKDJedi

Jesus Christ.. and just like that three listings disappear.. you guys are freakn mad men!!


----------



## therremans

It wasn’t me. I’ll wait on the 6L5 until one of you recommend it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 11, 2020)

therremans said:


> It wasn’t me. I’ll wait on the 6L5 until one of you recommend it.


Bill is awfully quiet...


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone have a few pictures of how I should expect to remove the existing pot to replace with the Alps blue one? I'm fine soldering but wouldn't sneeze at a bit of a walkthrough.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> seem to be close enough.. who's gonna be first?.. @bcowen ?



YOU brought it up. YOU be first.  Yes, YOU.  Not meaning to shout YOU or anything, just suggesting that YOU be the guinea pig. I'll stock up on popcorn awaiting YOUr verdict.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have a few pictures of how I should expect to remove the existing pot to replace with the Alps blue one? I'm fine soldering but wouldn't sneeze at a bit of a walkthrough.



@therremans is your man.  And he's _my_ hero, 'cause he already figured all this out and I don't have to.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Jesus Christ.. and just like that three listings disappear.. you guys are freakn mad men!!



Probably @Ripper2860 doing his usual lurk-snatch-hoard routine.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Jesus Christ.. and just like that three listings disappear.. you guys are freakn mad men!!



Wait.  Maybe I'm confused (well, _maybe_ is subjective, right?).  Was it these you're talking about?  I know nothing about them whatsoever.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Wait.  Maybe I'm confused (well, _maybe_ is subjective, right?).  Was it these you're talking about?  I know nothing about them whatsoever.


  I hate you.. ..ok I don't..but, yeah I hate you..  (I saw them then paused to look around, then decided, you know..those are some decent tubes.. went to go buy...GONE..   ) Well, happy one of us got them, not.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 11, 2020)

The Sylvania is Strong With This One.. (*6F8G*)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I hate you.. ..ok I don't..but, yeah I hate you..  (I saw them then paused to look around, then decided, you know..those are some decent tubes.. went to go buy...GONE..   ) Well, happy one of us got them, not.



See how much money I just saved you?  You should be thanking me for my thoughtfulness.

Or not.


----------



## Paladin79

I should be experimenting with new cabinets for the Darkvoice in the next couple months. This will allow for use of a wider range of parts during modification. If anyone has a used or non-working 336 they would be willing to sell I am looking to buy one for such a purpose. I just missed out on the $200 sale at Drop but I could wait for that to come around again if need be.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have a few pictures of how I should expect to remove the existing pot to replace with the Alps blue one? I'm fine soldering but wouldn't sneeze at a bit of a walkthrough.







?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> ?



     

I prefer a hammer, but I suppose it's one of those personal preference things.


----------



## therremans (Dec 12, 2020)

Okay, output caps have officially been replaced with the Vishay 10uf MKP1839 greenies. Works first go without one issue upon power on, sounds great. I am going to let them burn in awhile before more critical listening.


----------



## DeweyCH

I have two questions:

How in the ever loving bejeezus do you get the front panel off?

To get rid of the pre out do I literally just cut the wires going to the pre out RCA jacks?

Danke


----------



## therremans (Dec 12, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> How in the ever loving bejeezus do you get the front panel off?
> 
> ...


First, there are four or six screws on the inside securing the front panel. Second, all of the screws around the volume knob also secure it in place (this is all it really needed IMO). Let me know if you find them. You’ll need a long screwdriver to reach the ones at the bottom (once unit is flipped over). Be careful as they are cheap and will strip if you don’t have proper bite.

yes you could cut them or desolder them. You could also desolder them on the output pcb and remove the wires all together.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Okay, output caps have officially been replaced with the Vishay 10uf MKP1839 greenies. Works first go without one issue upon power on, sounds great. I am going to let them burn in awhile before more critical listening.



You can't leave us hangin' like that.  Man, that's just like...cruel.  Break-in is just snake oil anyway.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> How in the ever loving bejeezus do you get the front panel off?
> 
> ...



I couldn't get the internal screws on mine to budge. They were either cross-threaded when they were installed, or they hired a sumo wrestler for assembly who thought 900 ft-lbs of torque was required to hold things together.   You do not necessarily have to take the front plate off if you're just changing the volume pot. Pull off the knob, and then undo the nut on the pot's shaft and the pot will pull out from the back (after you de-solder the ground leads from the headphone jack and the chassis bus wire). Only issue is that the locator pin on the Alps pot is in the wrong spot. I just cut it off of mine with Mr. Dremel and a cutoff wheel. I can get enough tension on the shaft nut on the Alps that I have no real concern about it moving or rotating around. You could also cut a small wood block (or similar) to the right thickness (about 3/8") and glue it to the chassis to go between the top of the pot's case and the underside of the chassis top if you're concerned the pot may rotate without that pin in place. That would prevent _any_ possible rotation of the pot's case. I thought about doing that, but as solid as the pot is in there now I don't think it's necessary. If that makes no sense from a text description let me know and I'll try and get a pic to better illustrate what I'm suggesting.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Okay, output caps have officially been replaced with the Vishay 10uf MKP1839 greenies. Works first go without one issue upon power on, sounds great. I am going to let them burn in awhile before more critical listening.



And oh yeah....how totally irresponsible of me to neglect this in the previous post:  Pics or it didn't happen!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> You can't leave us hangin' like that.  Man, that's just like...cruel.  Break-in is just snake oil anyway.


On a downtown walk with the mrs. will post photos when I return


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> On a downtown walk with the mrs. will post photos when I return



ROFL!   Looks like she just took a bite of Texas BBQ!


----------



## therremans (Dec 13, 2020)

*Output cap replacement*

Remove the output PCB board. Start by de-soldering the green points shown, then unscrew the four screws in each corner. I used these caps - Vishay MKP1839 (10uf) x 8, Vishay MKP1839 (.1uf) x 8



De-solder and clean up the board, remove the stock orange caps by what way you wish. I also removed the two blue block .47uf output caps as this unit has the preamp output removed. It will give you more room to work with. The cleaner the board is, the easier the install.


I also chose to relocate the resistors to the bottom of the PCB so my caps could sit more flush.


Measurements for cap replacement buying, you have some extra overhang room on the rear and sides, just be aware of the leads and insulate, etc. Don't let anything touch the case or another lead.


Okay, get your caps ready, I chose to match my L and R channels. I tried fitting ten but could only safely fit eight due to the outer edge lip of the case being too close to the capacitor which made installing the board next to impossible. I added a 1% bypass cap, piggybacking the greens for ease of installation.


Add the caps, carefully enlarge any pad hole if needed with a Dremel and diamond bit, careful.. slow and easy does it, go up in bit sizes gradually. This PCB board is quite robust though. If you study the PCB, you will notice there are traces on the top and bottom of the PCB. Because of this, I felt it was necessary to carefully solder the top and bottom of every pad to ensure good solid connection. These caps are so long that they cover the rear lead connection, so I wrapped them around the board and went up through the bottom. Because this PCB is mounted on metal posts, you have some clearance to do so. My process was: Solder the rear lead on the top, pull the cap down and then solder the other 3 pads (bottom rear, front top and front bottom)


Ensure everything is fairly flush and clean. The tape was added to the rear of the cap wall as a safety measure before installation.


Now it's time to place it in the case.. the toughest part here is getting the wires from the transformer to line up, but it really was much less of a problem that I thought it would be, it pretty much fit for me first try, use a flashlight/headlamp to see where the wires are in relation to the PCB holes. Don't forget to screw it down.


Re-solder all of your connections. Be conscious of the leads, do not push them so far into the hole that they are touching or anywhere close to the case below.



Enjoy a beer.


Also I should mention that my amp has the current mods: dim red LED cathode bias, ALPS Blue 50k, 47k shunt, Preamp output removal, rhodium plated   RCA input jacks, micalex sockets, replaced wiring and some other minor or cosmetic things like panel led, switch and jack replacements. see sig for phones used etc.

I will do my best to describe the sonic differences.. I think the overall resolution has improved slightly, not a dramatic change. The low end is more articulate and tight, I noticed a slight decrease in bass boom, this is a good thing (I used to run a -2db in low end due to my phones/pads but now it's set to 0), it doesn't get so low to the point of wanting to break up. The high frequency range improved and is overall more crisp, less chance of becoming harsh too. I don't immediately notice much of a change in the soundstage, ie: there isn't some grand 3D airy sound now. It's hard to compare without an A/B, separation may have slightly improved. However, we have tubes for some of these changes. Overall these caps have a warmer sound than the stock oranges but not in a veil sort of way. Mid emphasis but still have decent frequency extension that bests the stock orange caps.

I will come back and edit this post if I notice any sonic changes to mention after 100+ hours of use. I have no idea if cap burn in is real or not. Some claim certain caps give you more low end and or less grain, etc after some listening.

Feel free to DM me for questions. @bcowen is installing a single 47uf Mundorf per channel soon and that is possibly another cap option for the Darkvoice but we will see if those beasts fit soon. Then once he sends me his amp to demo, I will let you know which caps I prefer. 

Capacitor reviews: Capacitor Musings By Jon L.,  Part One, Part Two


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Output cap replacement*
> 
> Remove the output PCB board. Start by de-soldering the green points shown, then unscrew the four screws in each corner. I used these caps - Vishay MKP1839 (10uf) x 8, Vishay MKP1839 (.1uf) x 8
> 
> ...



Nice!  Really appreciate your time and effort to document this in such nice detail for the rest of us.  You ARE the man!!


----------



## therremans (Dec 13, 2020)

While rolling tubes tonight, I discovered that I can no longer use 6C8G for output signal. It distorts when high on the meter with 6as7g and 6080, not just the 7236, 5998 and Bendix. I wonder if it is because my amp now has 80uf output capacitance but it would be nice to have this verified. Like we previously discussed here, the 6C8G is often labeled as not compatible for most amps but it works on the DV with 6as7g/6080 (from my experience), and sometimes could offer a great sound for a low price.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> While rolling tubes tonight, I discovered that I can no longer use 6C8G for output signal. It distorts when high on the meter with 6as7g and 6080, not just the 7236, 5998 and Bendix. I wonder if it is because my amp now has 80uf output capacitance but it would be nice to have this verified. Like we previously discussed here, the 6C8G is often labeled as not compatible for most amps but it works on the DV with 6as7g/6080 (from my experience), and sometimes could offer a great sound for a low price.



Hmmmm.  Maybe too much gain?  Almost twice the gain of a 6F8G, and I don't know if this comes into play or not but it has over 3x the plate resistance of a 6F8G.  You have a TungSol 6F8G, right?  Does it work, or have you tried it yet?

I have a couple 6C8G's....I'll give them a whirl once I get the Mundorfs in (and installed) and see if the same thing happens.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.  Maybe too much gain?  Almost twice the gain of a 6F8G, and I don't know if this comes into play or not but it has over 3x the plate resistance of a 6F8G.  You have a TungSol 6F8G, right?  Does it work, or have you tried it yet?
> 
> I have a couple 6C8G's....I'll give them a whirl once I get the Mundorfs in (and installed) and see if the same thing happens.


Yeah, 6F8G is still working perfectly fine.


----------



## therremans

@bcowen Alps pot install going okay? I’ve considered swapping out my 50k for a 10k sometime soon. But concerned my gain may drop. So I think I will want a lower resistor value of around 7k... but I wonder if it is necessary as I have zero noise floor at max volume (with my quiet NOS tubes).

@JKDJedi your soldering iron arrive yet


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.  Maybe too much gain?  Almost twice the gain of a 6F8G, and I don't know if this comes into play or not but it has over 3x the plate resistance of a 6F8G.  You have a TungSol 6F8G, right?  Does it work, or have you tried it yet?
> 
> I have a couple 6C8G's....I'll give them a whirl once I get the Mundorfs in (and installed) and see if the same thing happens.


It's already at the limit stock..


therremans said:


> @bcowen Alps pot install going okay? I’ve considered swapping out my 50k for a 10k sometime soon. But concerned my gain may drop. So I think I will want a lower resistor value of around 7k... but I wonder if it is necessary as I have zero noise floor at max volume (with my quiet NOS tubes).
> 
> @JKDJedi your soldering iron arrive yet


long time ago...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> @bcowen Alps pot install going okay? I’ve considered swapping out my 50k for a 10k sometime soon. But concerned my gain may drop. So I think I will want a lower resistor value of around 7k... but I wonder if it is necessary as I have zero noise floor at max volume (with my quiet NOS tubes).
> 
> @JKDJedi your soldering iron arrive yet



Well, you know me.  I have to re-think everything 27.3 times, and thinking is not my forte'.   I have everything all ready to go save for actually soldering the wires to the pot, then I thought that I didn't want to do a shunt or voltage divider if I didn't have to. So....that Parts Express order I was moaning to you about via PM? Part of it is a 20k Alps audio/log taper pot. Figured I'd try that and see if it gets the pot's rotation into the mid-range by itself without having to add resistors at the pot or at the inputs. Of course Parts _Express_ (Ha!) still hasn't even handed the package to the Post Office over a week later. I've sent them 3 emails, first requesting a shipment status and the last one asking to cancel, and no response whatsoever. Really pissing me off. If they're that busy then they obviously don't need my business. If I don't get some response from them or indication that USPS actually has possession of it by tomorrow, I'll just order one from Angela even though their price is higher. At least they ship the stuff you order. 

And the copper plate for my other project?  Still languishing in Area 51 somewhere. LOL!  Stupid me should have just ordered it from Amazon.  Sigh.  Maybe I'll go sleep in a Holiday Inn tonight and everything will be better tomorrow.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> long time ago...



Did you turn it on yet?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 13, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Did you turn it on yet?


My workstation is top of a water cooler in my garage.  😒 Not bringing soldered fumes in the house. Not the best set up but for just resoldering pins. .it works. 🙂


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> My workstation is top of a water cooler in my garage.  😒 Not bringing soldered fumes in the house. Not the best set up but for just resoldering pins. .it works. 🙂


Looking nice, weller. Wait there’s fumes?  maybe that’s what’s wrong with me.

I also have the 20k alps if that works out better for us. I just need to make the small pcb boards and cut them up with the oscillator. I also need to order more resistors though as I don’t have the right ones for those pots.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> My workstation is top of a water cooler in my garage.  😒 Not bringing soldered fumes in the house. Not the best set up but for just resoldering pins. .it works. 🙂





https://www.graphicproducts.com/gui..._term=5s principles&utm_content=5S Principles


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looking nice, weller. Wait there’s fumes?  maybe that’s what’s wrong with me.
> 
> I also have the 20k alps if that works out better for us. I just need to make the small pcb boards and cut them up with the oscillator. I also need to order more resistors though as I don’t have the right ones for those pots.



I've been breathing solder fumes for 30 years.  Hasn't affected me one bit.  Pretty obvious, I'm sure.  And cheaper than beer.  LOL!!!!


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone wanna recommend me a good push button power switch replacement while I'm trying to kill this amp with my tinkering?


----------



## therremans (Dec 13, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone wanna recommend me a good push button power switch replacement while I'm trying to kill this amp with my tinkering?


I tried but couldn’t find one I liked much and that would fit the faceplate hole. I didn’t want to bore out the hole as I don’t have a drill press and also didn’t want to remove the black anodized coating.

Edit: Here is the switch I almost bought (but decided on a Carling mini toggle). It will fit however the throw of the button may or may not work with the faceplate. Judging by how far the barrel sticks into the faceplate on mine, I think it would probably work fine.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 13, 2020)

Got my 2nd pair of Baldwin tubes and same exact thing, one tests just ok and the other low with a failed grid ... I quit. On the brighter side of things.. Ebay has a new and quick returns policy, Free shipping included. 

Edit: L M F A O.. the vendor gave me a refund with a message.. KEEP THEM!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Well, you know me.  I have to re-think everything 27.3 times, and thinking is not my forte'.   I have everything all ready to go save for actually soldering the wires to the pot, then I thought that I didn't want to do a shunt or voltage divider if I didn't have to. So....that Parts Express order I was moaning to you about via PM? Part of it is a 20k Alps audio/log taper pot. Figured I'd try that and see if it gets the pot's rotation into the mid-range by itself without having to add resistors at the pot or at the inputs. Of course Parts _Express_ (Ha!) still hasn't even handed the package to the Post Office over a week later. I've sent them 3 emails, first requesting a shipment status and the last one asking to cancel, and no response whatsoever. Really pissing me off. If they're that busy then they obviously don't need my business. If I don't get some response from them or indication that USPS actually has possession of it by tomorrow, I'll just order one from Angela even though their price is higher. At least they ship the stuff you order.
> 
> And the copper plate for my other project?  Still languishing in Area 51 somewhere. LOL!  Stupid me should have just ordered it from Amazon.  Sigh.  Maybe I'll go sleep in a Holiday Inn tonight and everything will be better tomorrow.



What's the whole deal with that "shunt" thing? Does it work for any amp? With my Little Bear I can barely get the vol. to 9 o-clock without blowing my ears out unless I use an attenuator cable - which of course messes with the freq. response of my headphones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> What's the whole deal with that "shunt" thing? Does it work for any amp? With my Little Bear I can barely get the vol. to 9 o-clock without blowing my ears out unless I use an attenuator cable - which of course messes with the freq. response of my headphones.


I can't get past 9 the same before it starts to distort uncontrollably. At 8 is perfect.


----------



## therremans (Dec 13, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> What's the whole deal with that "shunt" thing? Does it work for any amp? With my Little Bear I can barely get the vol. to 9 o-clock without blowing my ears out unless I use an attenuator cable - which of course messes with the freq. response of my headphones.


Improved channel tracking, potentially clearer sound using quality resistors, a reduced noise floor, +/- db control by swapping resistor values.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I can't get past 9 the same before it starts to distort uncontrollably. At 8 is perfect.



With the stock DV pot (and rest of amp unmodified), I couldn't get it much past 7:00 (with 6:00 being full counterclockwise).  I never heard any distortion and the channel balance actually seemed pretty good, it was just too loud if I cranked it past about 7:30 at the max.  Most conductive film pots (like the stock pot and the Alps) don't get very equal channel balance at either extreme of their rotation -- much better if they are being used closer to the center.  If the pointer on a knob is oriented so that, say, 7:00 is full counterclockwise and 5:00 is full clockwise, then better if you can get the volume where you want it between 10:00 and 2:00, and even more ideally between 11:00 and 1:00 for most listening. Between 9:00 and 3:00 can be OK for some pots...depends on how well it was made and how consistent the conductive layer(s) was applied to the discs.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> With the stock DV pot (and rest of amp unmodified), I couldn't get it much past 7:00 (with 6:00 being full counterclockwise).  I never heard any distortion and the channel balance actually seemed pretty good, it was just too loud if I cranked it past about 7:30 at the max.  Most conductive film pots (like the stock pot and the Alps) don't get very equal channel balance at either extreme of their rotation -- much better if they are being used closer to the center.  If the pointer on a knob is oriented so that, say, 7:00 is full counterclockwise and 5:00 is full clockwise, then better if you can get the volume where you want it between 10:00 and 2:00, and even more ideally between 11:00 and 1:00 for most listening. Between 9:00 and 3:00 can be OK for some pots...depends on how well it was made and how consistent the conductive layer(s) was applied to the discs.


Is a shunt on the stock pot better than non shunted Alps?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Is a shunt on the stock pot better than non shunted Alps?



I can't say definitively.  I think it *is* safe to say that an Alps is better than the pot that's in there though.


----------



## therremans (Dec 13, 2020)

I didn’t try to shunt the stock pot. If you search this thread you’ll find more info on doing the swap. The 100k alps blue alone gave me full sweep. Changing to a shunted 50k reduced noise floor even more with little change in gain or the sweep.

Pot swap
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15939945

Shunt mod
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15954073


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I didn’t try to shunt the stock pot. If you search this thread you’ll find more info on doing the swap. The 100k alps blue alone gave me full sweep. Changing to a shunted 50k reduced noise floor even more with little change in gain or the sweep.
> 
> Pot swap
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15939945
> ...


Thank you so so so much for this, I was trying to find exactly these


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> I didn’t try to shunt the stock pot. If you search this thread you’ll find more info on doing the swap. The 100k alps blue alone gave me full sweep. Changing to a shunted 50k reduced noise floor even more with little change in gain or the sweep.
> 
> Pot swap
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15939945
> ...



I did slap a couple of resistors on the pot of one of my amps (I have 2, one stock, one modded - shipping issues). The reason was to make the pot more "log" like. The geniuses used a linear pot in the first place, not to mention it is pretty f----ing far from an Alps, like their ad claimed. My other amp I replaced the whole works. I don't remember for sure, but 20k, log. sounds right. Still way too loud.


----------



## wideload

All this talk of pot replacement and shunts is starting to put me off the Darkvoice. My many talents don’t include electronics work. I had settled on tube rolling, and now this! Please don’t take this as criticism in any way, but as a man knowing his limitations. Is an old wuss like me better off with a Valhalla or pre-built Crack?


----------



## therremans

wideload said:


> All this talk of pot replacement and shunts is starting to put me off the Darkvoice. My many talents don’t include electronics work. I had settled on tube rolling, and now this! Please don’t take this as criticism in any way, but as a man knowing his limitations. Is an old wuss like me better off with a Valhalla or pre-built Crack?


The stock Darkvoice is certainly fine, swap some tubes around a bit and find what you like. I haven't used those other amps, so can't say. If you don't own any tubes and also don't have interests in hoarding, I could possibly make the argument the other two would be a better choice.

You could also just put in a decent set of tubes for the Darkvoice or Crack and be done with it. Like a NOS Mullard 6080 and a decent driver tube aimed at your music preference.


----------



## SHIMACM

A good offer came up and I pulled the trigger.


----------



## DeweyCH

I'll admit I wussed out and didn't replace the pot on my DV. I severed the pre-out connections, though. Sounds nice. Really nice, warm, old-school synergy between the DV, my Dual 1019 and my AKG Sextetts.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I'll admit I wussed out and didn't replace the pot on my DV. I severed the pre-out connections, though. Sounds nice. Really nice, warm, old-school synergy between the DV, my Dual 1019 and my AKG Sextetts.


Maybe wait on that one. It isn't a drop and fit and definitely takes a little time. Anyone can go at it from their own perspective and what they feel is easier. The next mod for you to do if you wanted, could be LED cathode biasing for the 6sn7 socket OR add two caps AKA Fitz mod.


----------



## Mr Trev

Stumbled across this elsewhere, thought I post it here for the mod-meisters.
https://hakkousa.com/holidaysale


----------



## jonathan c

wideload said:


> All this talk of pot replacement and shunts is starting to put me off the Darkvoice. My many talents don’t include electronics work. I had settled on tube rolling, and now this! Please don’t take this as criticism in any way, but as a man knowing his limitations. Is an old wuss like me better off with a Valhalla or pre-built Crack?


I am an extremely happy owner of a Crack 1.1 with speedball, mega-capacitors, plus. It was built to order by James C at The HeadAmp Builder (initial contact through Etsy). His craftsmanship and attention to detail is outstanding. The sound is magnificent - now I can reasonably tube roll without bollocksing up the works.


----------



## therremans

Is there any added challenges to build a crack using a 6sn7 socket?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Stumbled across this elsewhere, thought I post it here for the mod-meisters.
> https://hakkousa.com/holidaysale



Nice!  I've always used Weller, but the Hakko stuff is at least as good if maybe not even better.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Maybe wait on that one. It isn't a drop and fit and definitely takes a little time. Anyone can go at it from their own perspective and what they feel is easier. The next mod for you to do if you wanted, could be LED cathode biasing for the 6sn7 socket OR add two caps AKA Fitz mod.



The 20k pot magically arrived today, very carefully and thoughtfully packed by being tossed in a manila envelope with no wrapping or protection whatsoever.  Unbelievable.  Hopefully the pins will bend back into position without snapping off....haven't tried yet.  Last time I order from Parts Express, that's for sure.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> The 20k pot magically arrived today, very carefully and thoughtfully packed by being tossed in a manila envelope with no wrapping or protection whatsoever.  Unbelievable.  Hopefully the pins will bend back into position without snapping off....haven't tried yet.  Last time I order from Parts Express, that's for sure.


Wow! Definitely noted, such poor handling.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Nice!  I've always used Weller, but the Hakko stuff is at least as good if maybe not even better.


I've heard good things about Hakko.
And, well, money saved on tools is money that can go into more tubes.

Sorry about your Alps. Looks like I won't be ordering anything from Parts Express now.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 14, 2020)

On a much brighter note today, Houston the Eagle has landed!  (you young'uns probably don't even know what that means).   

Got the pins straightened without issue on the Alps, got it installed, and bingo!   With the knob situated with just before 7:00 at fully counterclockwise and just after 5:00 at fully clockwise, quiet listening is around 9:00.  Rock city between 11:00 and 12:00, and up to 1:00 or so with some lower-level recorded tracks.  Cranked it to 2:00 with Fanfare for the Common Man, and I know you'll think I'm exaggerating but the vibration of the drum whacks moved the Senn earpads on my ears. LOL!!  I NEVER listen that loud, but wanted to test to be sure the overall gain wasn't diminished in the process.  This is with a Mullard 6080 and Foton 6N8S in place, just 'cause they were laying there and easy to nab.  No hum at all (I mean dead silent) until about 3:00, and then just a faint level past that....which is way louder than the DV will ever be playing music.  And soundstage?  Never like this before with the DV, probably due mostly to having good channel balance for the first time.  No shunts or voltage dividers, just the 20k pot (oh, and some nice silver coax wire, a couple added Riken carbon resistors, Kimber jacks....you know, the usual).    Big improvement, and I haven't even given the thing time to settle in yet...or rolled any tubes.

*20k Alps:*




*Kimber RCA's (interior view):*




*Front with new knob.  Bit of photo angle distortion there...took a little fiddling but the knob is perfectly centered:*

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-30-22mm-High-End-Black-Solid-Aluminum-Knob-FR-Radio-Amp-Volume-Potentiometer/323866769806?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## wideload

@bcowen Given your travails, I read your comment as “Fanfare for the C’mon, Man!”. 😀


----------



## Brubacca

wideload said:


> All this talk of pot replacement and shunts is starting to put me off the Darkvoice. My many talents don’t include electronics work. I had settled on tube rolling, and now this! Please don’t take this as criticism in any way, but as a man knowing his limitations. Is an old wuss like me better off with a Valhalla or pre-built Crack?


I get it. You don't have to go crazy down the tube rabbit hole. Its a fine sounding tube amp. I had a pair of rothwell 12dB attenuators that are meant to go inline with your rca cables. This gave me a little room to move on the pot. 

There is a faint buzz with the Tung Sol 6Sn7gtb but you can't hear it with the music, well I can't. 

I used to be really good at soldering back in the day 90s. Haven't done it in years and I not going there either. 

Its really a nice sounding amp. If you can afford someone to build a crack or a woo audio that's a better bet to not have these little annoyances. If you are on a college beer budget for your audio the Darkvoice is nice. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## bcowen

wideload said:


> @bcowen Given your travails, I read your comment as “Fanfare for the C’mon, Man!”. 😀



ROFL!    

Perhaps "Fanfare for the C'mon, Y'all" would be even more accurate.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> On a much brighter note today, Houston the Eagle has landed!  (you young'uns probably don't even know what that means).
> 
> Got the pins straightened without issue on the Alps, got it installed, and bingo!   With the knob situated with just before 7:00 at fully counterclockwise and just after 5:00 at fully clockwise, quiet listening is around 9:00.  Rock city between 11:00 and 12:00, and up to 1:00 or so with some lower-level recorded tracks.  Cranked it to 2:00 with Fanfare for the Common Man, and I know you'll think I'm exaggerating but the vibration of the drum whacks moved the Senn earpads on my ears. LOL!!  I NEVER listen that loud, but wanted to test to be sure the overall gain wasn't diminished in the process.  This is with a Mullard 6080 and Foton 6N8S in place, just 'cause they were laying there and easy to nab.  No hum at all (I mean dead silent) until about 3:00, and then just a faint level past that....which is way louder than the DV will ever be playing music.  And soundstage?  Never like this before with the DV, probably due mostly to having good channel balance for the first time.  No shunts or voltage dividers, just the 20k pot (oh, and some nice silver coax wire, a couple added Riken carbon resistors, Kimber jacks....you know, the usual).    Big improvement, and I haven't even given the thing time to settle in yet...or rolled any tubes.
> 
> ...


Very nice work! Clean install and simple to the point. I think the pot was also one of the biggest improvements. One audible difference with a shunt is you’ll have zero noisefloor even at full volume but it’s not necessary. I will swap the 6sn7 resistors next.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Very nice work! Clean install and simple to the point. I think the pot was also one of the biggest improvements. One audible difference with a shunt is you’ll have zero noisefloor even at full volume but it’s not necessary. I will swap the 6sn7 resistors next.



Thanks!  And yeah, that's the problem with me being lazy and doing everything at once -- hard to know what contributed most to the changes/improvements. I agree that the pot likely made the biggest difference, and not just from the better positioning.  How much the wire and resistors added is hard to say, but I'm sure a lesser impact overall. 

The Mundorf caps should be here tomorrow, but I'm going to resist putting them in until I get a solid handle on what I've done already, including listening with some different tube pairings.  Just hoping resistance isn't futile.


----------



## JKDJedi

wideload said:


> All this talk of pot replacement and shunts is starting to put me off the Darkvoice. My many talents don’t include electronics work. I had settled on tube rolling, and now this! Please don’t take this as criticism in any way, but as a man knowing his limitations. Is an old wuss like me better off with a Valhalla or pre-built Crack?


Darkvoice is fine as is, just when you start getting the new amp itch, you start to get inventive. It's called modding.

*Modding* refers to the act of modifying hardware, software, or virtually anything else, to perform a function not originally conceived or intended by the designer, or achieve a bespoke specification 

The Darkvoice is an excellent intro unit for that. You mess up... not as costly of a loss.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Stumbled across this elsewhere, thought I post it here for the mod-meisters.
> https://hakkousa.com/holidaysale


pitch in guys and get me the smoke absorber !


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> I am an extremely happy owner of a Crack 1.1 with speedball, mega-capacitors, plus. It was built to order by James C at The HeadAmp Builder (initial contact through Etsy). His craftsmanship and attention to detail is outstanding. The sound is magnificent - now I can reasonably tube roll without bollocksing up the works.


Think I know the person your referring to, almost pulled the trigger on one of his amps.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The 20k pot magically arrived today, very carefully and thoughtfully packed by being tossed in a manila envelope with no wrapping or protection whatsoever.  Unbelievable.  Hopefully the pins will bend back into position without snapping off....haven't tried yet.  Last time I order from Parts Express, that's for sure.


L M F A O... why is that FUNNY!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> On a much brighter note today, Houston the Eagle has landed!  (you young'uns probably don't even know what that means).
> 
> Got the pins straightened without issue on the Alps, got it installed, and bingo!   With the knob situated with just before 7:00 at fully counterclockwise and just after 5:00 at fully clockwise, quiet listening is around 9:00.  Rock city between 11:00 and 12:00, and up to 1:00 or so with some lower-level recorded tracks.  Cranked it to 2:00 with Fanfare for the Common Man, and I know you'll think I'm exaggerating but the vibration of the drum whacks moved the Senn earpads on my ears. LOL!!  I NEVER listen that loud, but wanted to test to be sure the overall gain wasn't diminished in the process.  This is with a Mullard 6080 and Foton 6N8S in place, just 'cause they were laying there and easy to nab.  No hum at all (I mean dead silent) until about 3:00, and then just a faint level past that....which is way louder than the DV will ever be playing music.  And soundstage?  Never like this before with the DV, probably due mostly to having good channel balance for the first time.  No shunts or voltage dividers, just the 20k pot (oh, and some nice silver coax wire, a couple added Riken carbon resistors, Kimber jacks....you know, the usual).    Big improvement, and I haven't even given the thing time to settle in yet...or rolled any tubes.
> 
> ...


Talk about peer pressure.. feeling I'm gonna have to give this a go now.. what could go wrong!?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  And yeah, that's the problem with me being lazy and doing everything at once -- hard to know what contributed most to the changes/improvements. I agree that the pot likely made the biggest difference, and not just from the better positioning.  How much the wire and resistors added is hard to say, but I'm sure a lesser impact overall.
> 
> The Mundorf caps should be here tomorrow, but I'm going to resist putting them in until I get a solid handle on what I've done already, including listening with some different tube pairings.  Just hoping resistance isn't futile.


Just ordered the 20k Alps .. gonna give it a try.. I'll be off for two weeks after this one so plenty of time to tinker with the Darkvoice.


----------



## therremans

For anyone interested in reading about a shunted pot, here is a source that helped me. - link


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> pitch in guys and get me the smoke absorber !



you don't need that.  that just do your soldering work at the base of a smoker.  put a slab of ribs at the top and you're golden.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O... why is that FUNNY!!!



LOL!  I must agree that the total absurdity was funny.  Maybe it would have been less funny (and just disappointing) if they hadn't sat on the order for an entire week before they even shipped it.  I'm gonna go with "whatever could go wrong did" with this particular order as an explanation, 'cause if Parts Express operated like this on a regular business they wouldn't still be in business.    I can deal with mistakes (we're all human), but what I _can't_ deal with is total radio silence to my multiple requests for information.  That's just inexcusable to me.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Just ordered the 20k Alps ..



Hope you didn't order it from Parts Express.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Hope you didn't order it from Parts Express.


Amazon..so probably PArts Express..  Anyways..truth be told, I lost sleep last night thinking about this task.. So this thing might become my desk paper weight.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Amazon..so probably PArts Express..  Anyways..truth be told, I lost sleep last night thinking about this task.. So this thing might become my desk paper weight.


Just in time, @Paladin79 is looking for a Darkvoice paperweight. Send it to him when you’re done.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Amazon..so probably PArts Express..  Anyways..truth be told, I lost sleep last night thinking about this task.. So this thing might become my desk paper weight.



Just send it to @therremans .  I'm pretty sure he'd do it for you for around $500.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Just in time, @Paladin79 is looking for a Darkvoice paperweight. Send it to him when you’re done.



ROFL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Just in time, @Paladin79 is looking for a Darkvoice paperweight. Send it to him when you’re done.





bcowen said:


> Just send it to @therremans .  I'm pretty sure he'd do it for you for around $500.


The Alps is the paper weight..lets not get too excited here boys..  Only $500!? That's a steal!!


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Just in time, @Paladin79 is looking for a Darkvoice paperweight. Send it to him when you’re done.



Good plan, and I only want one to help out @bcowen with a cabinet for his. If I owned one it would not be recognizable as a 336 after I finished modding it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Alps is the paper weight..lets not get too excited here boys..  Only $500!? That's a steal!!



The Alps weighs like maybe an ounce.  Might work for a rolling papers weight.  LOL!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> The Alps weighs like maybe an ounce.  Might work for a rolling papers weight.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


L M F A O.... Now thats..... PROPER!! I'll be right over ..


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Good plan, and I only want one to help out @bcowen with a cabinet for his. If I owned one it would not be recognizable as a 336 after I finished modding it.


Wow how lucky you are Bill, you have a fan. Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to build an amp from scratch for the wooden case? Versus discarding the chassis and using the lower grade components? Unless it’s just a personal goal.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Good plan, and I only want one to help out @bcowen with a cabinet for his. If I owned one it would not be recognizable as a 336 after I finished modding it.



LOL!  Mine is getting to the point it only resembles a 336 from the outside. 

I'm having difficulty NOT envisioning a Cosworth Vega right now.  For those too young to remember that, it was a basic piece of crap Chevy Vega that normally sold for around $2000. The Cosworth Vega had a Cosworth engine (of British racing engine fame) in it that retailed for over $8k (this back in the mid '70's). The Cosworth was one of the first (non-racing) engines put in a road-legal car with 4 valves per cylinder. It was quite an advanced engine at the time....and Chevy put it in a friggin' Vega.  So at the end of the day you had a very cool and expensive engine in a $2000 piece of junk.

I'm in no way suggesting the 336 is a piece of junk (I quite like mine), just reminded of putting more dollars in parts in the thing than it cost to begin with.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Mine is getting to the point it only resembles a 336 from the outside.
> 
> I'm having difficulty NOT envisioning a Cosworth Vega right now.  For those too young to remember that, it was a basic piece of crap Chevy Vega that normally sold for around $2000. The Cosworth Vega had a Cosworth engine (of British racing engine fame) in it that retailed for over $8k (this back in the mid '70's). The Cosworth was one of the first (non-racing) engines put in a road-legal car with 4 valves per cylinder. It was quite an advanced engine at the time....and Chevy put it in a friggin' Vega.  So at the end of the day you had a very cool and expensive engine in a $2000 piece of junk.
> 
> I'm in no way suggesting the 336 is a piece of junk (I quite like mine), just reminded of putting more dollars in parts in the thing than it cost to begin with.


Not to shabby..


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Wow how lucky you are Bill, you have a fan. Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to build an amp from scratch for the wooden case? Versus discarding the chassis and using the lower grade components? Unless it’s just a personal goal.


My being a fan of Bill's are fighting words you know lol. I was hoping Bill would reward me with a bottle of scotch worth the price of his amp for my helping him. Bill's work on that amp reminds me of how to cook a carp. You get a board the proper size, lay the carp out on it and leave it in the sun for a few days. Then you throw away the carp and eat the board.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> My being a fan of Bill's are fighting words you know lol. I was hoping Bill would reward me with a bottle of scotch worth the price of his amp for my helping him. Bill's work on that amp reminds me of how to cook a carp. You get a board the proper size, lay the carp out on it and leave it in the sun for a few days. Then you throw away the carp and eat the board.


L M F A O !!! HAH!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My being a fan of Bill's are fighting words you know lol. I was hoping Bill would reward me with a bottle of scotch worth the price of his amp for my helping him. Bill's work on that amp reminds me of how to cook a carp. You get a board the proper size, lay the carp out on it and leave it in the sun for a few days. Then you throw away the carp and eat the board.



You're worse than a kid guessing what's in his exquisitely wrapped Christmas present before Christmas morning.  Fine.  Guess it won't be a surprise after all.  It *is* exquisitely wrapped though.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Not to shabby..



"Shabby" is a bit subjective.  It_ would_ go fast in a straight line. Hit a curve at more than 35mph though and the thing would roll so bad you'd scrape the chrome off the door handles.  There was a guy in college that had one and I rode it in a couple times.  At least it got more than 100 miles per quart of oil, which was typical consumption for the regular ones.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> You're worse than a kid guessing what's in his exquisitely wrapped Christmas present before Christmas morning.  Fine.  Guess it won't be a surprise after all.  It *is* exquisitely wrapped though.


Worth the price of the amp? Sounds about right. If you can't find the scotch, here's a backup.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My being a fan of Bill's are fighting words you know lol.



Thank you for clarifying that.  'Devotee' is a more accurate term.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Worth the price of the amp? Sounds about right. If you can't find the scotch, here's a backup.



Ouch!!!  That's harsh!  I wouldn't send that to Tom even if I _didn't _like him...or his amp.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You're worse than a kid guessing what's in his exquisitely wrapped Christmas present before Christmas morning.  Fine.  Guess it won't be a surprise after all.  It *is* exquisitely wrapped though.


You know most scotch is rated in years, that stuff must be from last Thursday. I did buy out the contents of a bar a few years ago and found some in plastic bottles that were like a year old, bottled in Kentucky but it has to be made in Scotland none the less.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thank you for clarifying that.  'Devotee' is a more accurate term.


Hell's kittens man, do I have to help you with English again? I am hoping you will be a deportee. 

So anyway apparently I am NOT getting a non-working Darkvoice till @bcowen destroys his. Then he will want me to repair it and build him a cabinet. A phoenix risen from the ashes comes to mind.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's kittens man, do I have to help you with English again? I am hoping you will be a deportee.
> 
> So anyway apparently I am NOT getting a non-working Darkvoice till @bcowen destroys his. Then he will want me to repair it and build him a cabinet. A phoenix risen from the ashes comes to mind.



Oh, ye of little faith.  My Darkvoice will be the model all other modders mimic, and probably get its own Wiki page at some point.  Well, maybe a co-Wiki with @therremans since he's displayed ample evidence he knows what he's doing.  You're a designer, not a modder...go play in your own playground.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Oh, ye of little faith.  My Darkvoice will be the model all other modders mimic, and probably get its own Wiki page at some point.  Well, maybe a co-Wiki with @therremans since he's displayed ample evidence he knows what he's doing.  You're a designer, not a modder...go play in your own playground.


Great, now I have to deal with alliteration from a backyard, barbecue, beginner bon vivant.

Shall we have a contest? I mod one, you mod one and @therremans chooses whose looks better, sounds better, and who managed to find all the cabinet screws that fell out?

We will need to come up with a suitable wager and no wine in boxes.  Wait first I need to check my PM's and make sure I never told @therremans to go micturate up a wet rope. I do things like that you know.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Great, now I have to deal with alliteration from a backyard, barbecue, beginner bon vivant.
> 
> Shall we have a contest? I mod one, you mod one and @therremans chooses whose looks better, sounds better, and who managed to find all the cabinet screws that fell out?
> 
> We will need to come up with a suitable wager and no wine in boxes.



That wouldn't be fair to @therremans as his might sound better than both.    And no wagers on the screws. You only need 2 to hold the bottom plate on...the rest are just an annoyance as far as I'm concerned.  But they have to be torqued just right or it affects the sound.  .


----------



## JKDJedi

We roll tubes here to ...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> We roll tubes here to ...



You must be listening to Russian symphonies.


----------



## therremans

Someone mentioned if shunts are necessary. I wondered how a 10k ALPS wired up standard would sound on the Darkvoice’s circuit. It still sounds very good. Do not worry about a shunt unless it’s something you wish to do to see how it sounds.

I think I have this correct..
A pots resistance rating will not effect the volume sweep and level but how much current passes through which could introduce more/less noise floor and potential distortion.

Pot resistance is high = a higher noise floor
Pot resistance is lower = a lower noise floor,  potentially higher distortion depending on amp circuit.

The noise floor with the 100k wired up standard was higher than a 50k or 10k

The shunted 50k was dead silent at max volume, however on a 10k? It’s audible at the end of its range like I figured. But the knob won’t be past the point where the noise becomes audible as the volume would be too great.. so it’s fine.

I did a few other things while I was in there. I removed the power LED from the 6sn7 cathode heater rail.. lol, it just seems like a bad placement choice but I don’t really know enough to say it is. Regardless, get off my socket, led.

Speaking of LEDs, I have been running the LED cathode bias for quite sometime now and I removed them. I had some Nichicon 100uf, 63v sitting around, so I installed them along with fresh 1k resistors. I also replaced the 1MOhm pair that run off the 6sn7 socket as well. These are just basic box set resistors. I will order vishay metal films soon when I replace everything else in the amp.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Someone mentioned if shunts are necessary. I wondered how a 10k ALPS wired up standard would sound on the Darkvoice’s circuit. It still sounds very good. Do not worry about a shunt unless it’s something you wish to do to see how it sounds.
> 
> I think I have this correct..
> A pots resistance rating will not effect the volume sweep and level but how much current passes through which could introduce more/less noise floor and potential distortion.
> ...



I get some very slight hum between 3:00 and 5:00 with no signal applied with the 20k pot (think I mentioned that previously).  _Well _beyond the max listening level, so of no consequence sonically. Prior to 3:00, it's just dead quiet. So if the pot value in and of itself has no bearing on loudness versus rotation location, then it kind of supports my theory that the original pot was causing all the issues with the huge volume gain in the first "1:00" of the pot's rotation in my particular unit. The factory pot is cheap cheap, but what can you expect in an amp that retails for $200? Oh, and going with just the straight, unshielded wire between the pot and the socket contacts has not introduced any hum at all. Certainly doesn't hurt to have a shielded wire there, but it doesn't seem to hurt _not_ having one there either...and definitely makes it easier to wire up. Makes me wonder if DV went to all the effort they did shielding *all* the internal wiring because of hum issues....issues that they might not have had to begin with by adding the cap bypasses to the cathode bias resistors. 

Did you notice any sonic change by removing the LED's and going to the resistor/cap bypass arrangement?  The discontinued Riken resistors are yummy if you can find them.  I have a few 1K's left, but no 1 megs...and can't find anyone with leftover stock in that value.  Fortunately I had one with a 1/2 watt rating and one with a 1 watt rating that went in my amp. The disparate power rating caused a bit of neurosis, but they both measured dead on 1.0 megohms so I'll probably get over it in a month or two.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I get some very slight hum between 3:00 and 5:00 with no signal applied with the 20k pot (think I mentioned that previously). _Well _beyond the max listening level, so of no consequence sonically. Prior to 3:00, it's just dead quiet.


Yes, I agree. I wanted to verify this. I prefer my volume knob to point at noon for 0, so for me it becomes audible at about 8 o’clock and gradually increases to 10 o’clock (max volume). But that is loud and it’s actually quiet. It’s actually even less so and very very faint on the Sennheiser’s, which might have to do with the aftermarket cable. Noise floor, hum, etc will also vary with tubes and their pairings.



bcowen said:


> Oh, and going with just the straight, unshielded wire between the pot and the socket contacts has not introduced any hum at all.


Another thing I wanted to verify. Same experience here. I used some vintage cloth pushback wire with no problem. This will get replaced soon. Another option if we don’t want to ground two shields is to just twist the wires together as they come from the socket over to the pot.



bcowen said:


> Makes me wonder if DV went to all the effort they did shielding *all* the internal wiring because of hum issues....issues that they might not have had to begin with by adding the cap bypasses to the cathode bias resistors


 Definitely possible. Those caps would have been worth it on their part. Unless the lead engineer disagreed with it, he would know the circuit better than us. Just saying, but hum or a noisy floor is never good.



bcowen said:


> Did you notice any sonic change by removing the LED's and going to the resistor/cap bypass arrangement?


I did all of these recent modifications at once so impossible to say. Removing the LED and adding back the resistors + bypass caps sounds just fine. I can’t accurately say how much change this gave for better or worse as I also changed pots and no longer have the shunt. I also wonder how the new output caps have settled in and or work with things like an LED bias or not. Yesterday (prior to these changes) it seemed like I had more low end than I remembered. Is this in my head or are the caps breaking in? Just can’t say for sure.

With last nights changes, it seems that my signal now has a little bit less warmth and the freq range has extended a little on the high end (but it is still possible that the shunt removal caused this). Quite crispy clean highs but it’s apparent that my low end isn’t as deep as before and why I will put the LEDs back in to see if that brings it back and what other changes come into play. Am I experiencing what other users have said about the fitz mod possibly causing a little low end roll off? Likely but I will confirm later.

Explaining subtle sonic changes can be a  chore and it’s always going to be mostly biased and subjective.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yes, I agree. I wanted to verify this. I prefer my volume knob to point at noon for 0, so for me it becomes audible at about 8 o’clock and gradually increases to 10 o’clock (max volume). But that is loud and it’s actually quiet. It’s actually even less so and very very faint on the Sennheiser’s, which might have to do with the aftermarket cable. Noise floor, hum, etc will also vary with tubes and their pairings.
> 
> 
> Another thing I wanted to verify. Same experience here. I used some vintage cloth pushback wire with no problem. This will get replaced soon. Another option if we don’t want to ground two shields is to just twist the wires together as they come from the socket over to the pot.
> ...


I may rethink messing with one of those, I would start with dual control pots, a different layout to allow for a better power supply, and some circuit changes. I guess I could try to keep the Darkvoice name somehow but not in that chassis. My preferences on wire, components and power transformer. I might keep a power switch from the original.😉


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, I agree. I wanted to verify this. I prefer my volume knob to point at noon for 0, so for me it becomes audible at about 8 o’clock and gradually increases to 10 o’clock (max volume). But that is loud and it’s actually quiet. It’s actually even less so and very very faint on the Sennheiser’s, which might have to do with the aftermarket cable. Noise floor, hum, etc will also vary with tubes and their pairings.
> 
> 
> Another thing I wanted to verify. Same experience here. I used some vintage cloth pushback wire with no problem. This will get replaced soon. Another option if we don’t want to ground two shields is to just twist the wires together as they come from the socket over to the pot.
> ...



Be very interested to see what happens if you put the LED's back in.  I've got bass though the HD-6XX's that rattles my brain (of course, smaller masses vibrate more easily and all ).  Adding the caps removes the negative feedback on the 6SN7's cathode bias, but I wouldn't expect there's enough influence at that point to make a substantial difference in the bass (if anything I'd expect the bass to increase, possibly at the expense of some definition and resolution).  But that's just an opinion.

How many hours do you have on the new caps?  Some will disagree (ha!), but to my ears caps can take a good bit to fully break in.  I have no experience with the Vishays, but if it were me I'd give them at least 25 - 30 hours of play time before making any final judgement.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Be very interested to see what happens if you put the LED's back in.  I've got bass though the HD-6XX's that rattles my brain (of course, smaller masses vibrate more easily and all ).  Adding the caps removes the negative feedback on the 6SN7's cathode bias, but I wouldn't expect there's enough influence at that point to make a substantial difference in the bass (if anything I'd expect the bass to increase, possibly at the expense of some definition and resolution).  But that's just an opinion.
> 
> How many hours do you have on the new caps?  Some will disagree (ha!), but to my ears caps can take a good bit to fully break in.  I have no experience with the Vishays, but if it were me I'd give them at least 25 - 30 hours of play time before making any final judgement.


I’ll let you know, probably 15 hours on the caps is all.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Be very interested to see what happens if you put the LED's back in.  I've got bass though the HD-6XX's that rattles my brain (of course, smaller masses vibrate more easily and all ).  Adding the caps removes the negative feedback on the 6SN7's cathode bias, but I wouldn't expect there's enough influence at that point to make a substantial difference in the bass (if anything I'd expect the bass to increase, possibly at the expense of some definition and resolution).  But that's just an opinion.
> 
> How many hours do you have on the new caps?  Some will disagree (ha!), but to my ears caps can take a good bit to fully break in.  I have no experience with the Vishays, but if it were me I'd give them at least 25 - 30 hours of play time before making any final judgement.


Haha. Well maybe I spoke too soon. Did a few things today and the Darkvoice is sounding brilliant. I am happy with the mods and where it stands currently. I am going to leave the fitz mod on for awhile. I will say that last night was late and I ran the 5998 with my Ken-Rad VT-231 for about 30 minutes. I had just listened to that combo the day prior and was really enjoying it, so felt that yes, some of the deep low end extension had been slightly rolled back. Today I have been running my Bendix with Sylvania 6J5GTs and man, the detail is great on the whole freq range. Bass is thick and smooth. High freqs are very transparent and clear. Loving it so far.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I may rethink messing with one of those, I would start with dual control pots, a different layout to allow for a better power supply, and some circuit changes. I guess I could try to keep the Darkvoice name somehow but not in that chassis. My preferences on wire, components and power transformer. I might keep a power switch from the original.😉


There’s some room in the rear behind the three 1000uf caps. I wonder if a choke could fit in this space. Or relocate the caps back there which would give more room for output caps, as long as the baseplate is extended or removed. I haven’t yet removed the transformer. I want to possibly swap it out with a better quality 115v. Right now I’m using a variac to maintain 110v.

If one were to use two mono pots for L and R volume control. How do you ever really know where the perfect channel balance is without measuring? I would think my hearing will throw it off and I’d just bring them to the same notch anyway. But I’ve never tried an amp that has this feature.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

therremans said:


> There’s some room in the rear behind the three 1000uf caps. I wonder if a choke could fit in this space. Or relocate the caps back there which would give more room for output caps, as long as the baseplate is extended or removed. I haven’t yet removed the transformer. I want to possibly swap it out with a better quality 115v. Right now I’m using a variac to maintain 110v.
> 
> If one were to use two mono pots for L and R volume control. How do you ever really know where the perfect channel balance is without measuring? I would think my hearing will throw it off and I’d just bring them to the same notch anyway. But I’ve never tried an amp that has this feature.


I find a place where I am happy with each channel and can usually judge it. What happens if a tube is not well balanced? I can adjust for that. Sometimes I just want to hear a bit more of a musical instrument on one channel so i up the level a bit. As far as matching I can monitor signal in and signal out with VU meters. 


I do not own a darkvoice, but repaired one for a friend and got a look inside and had a pretty good idea what I would change. I did the same thing with a Bottlehead Crack before receiving it, I did not want the volume pot, or jacks, or ac jack on the top.I knew I wanted a bigger cabinet than what was provided. Here is also a toy eight ball I modified to accept a Schiit Coaster amp. Behind is the first crack I did. VU meters above single gang pots. Those are alps stepped pots, they let you know where you are pretty easily as far as balance. I am sure you have seen some of my current work with dual  pots on my own designs.


----------



## therremans

I’ve heard good things about these cheap Chinese DACT types. Link Many have said it will even outperform the Alps blue. It would definitely fit in the Darkvoice, as it’s smaller than the Alps.

Here’s another I’d like to try, but doubt it will fit in front the 6sn7. Link

Also, I was told a 10k is recommended with these stepped attenuators in the Darkvoice. But that was one persons experience. For what it’s worth.


----------



## therremans (Dec 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I find a place where I am happy with each channel and can usually judge it. What happens if a tube is not well balanced? I can adjust for that. Sometimes I just want to hear a bit more of a musical instrument on one channel so i up the level a bit. As far as matching I can monitor signal in and signal out with VU meters.
> 
> I do not own a darkvoice, but repaired one for a friend and got a look inside and had a pretty good idea what I would change. I did the same thing with a Bottlehead Crack before receiving it, I did not want the volume pot, or jacks, or ac jack on the top.I knew I wanted a bigger cabinet than what was provided. Here is also a toy eight ball I modified to accept a Schiit Coaster amp. Behind is the first crack I did. VU meters above single gang pots. Those are alps stepped pots, they let you know where you are pretty easily as far as balance. I am sure you have seen some of my current work with dual  pots on my own designs.


Looks great, love the dual VU meters. Also wanted to add, very nice craftsmanship on the case. I’m also a fan of the aged copper or bronze. Own a bronze watch actually.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

therremans said:


> I’ve heard good things about these cheap Chinese DACT types. Link Many have said it will even outperform the Alps blue. It would definitely fit in the Darkvoice, as it’s smaller than the Alps.
> 
> Here’s another I’d like to try, but doubt it will fit in front the 6sn7. Link
> 
> Also, I was told a 10k is recommended with these stepped attenuators in the Darkvoice. But that was one persons experience. For what it’s worth.



I am using some out of China using Dale resistors just because I wanted top mount for a specific look. They are fine IMHO
This is my personal Incubus amp. 2 pounds of copper top plate and 3/4 inch honey locust wood. I like a very stable platform to cut down on tube vibration. I used copper lugs made for 0 gauge wire to mount the pots. I added patina to match the rest of the copper.





s


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am using some out of China using Dale resistors just because I wanted top mount for a specific look. They are fine IMHO
> This is my personal Incubus amp. 2 pounds of copper top plate and 3/4 inch honey locust wood. I like a very stable platform to cut down on tube vibration.


I told them about ya... they wouldn't listen... 
#mastercraftsman


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

Quartered oak on amp and table, I also  modified headphones to match. Took closed frame and made them open with other drivers.

Oh and Jedi can talk about dual pots since he has one of my amps, I do not always use them, but I do on my personal amps till someone needs one. The honey locust amp will never be for sale.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Quartered oak on amp and table, I also  modified headphones to match. Took closed frame and made them open with other drivers.


Oh, all the space for all the caps.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

therremans said:


> Oh, all the space for all the caps.


Yep I have seen BH Cracks with coke can sized caps hanging out the bottom, I like space and it makes things easier if you want to go back in and change components. I am repairing a Chinese amp right now and it is pretty packed inside a metal case. I have to remove the transformer wires just to get the main board out. On my son's BH Crack I stacked two of the regular crack cabinets to get more room. It was going to have multiple coats of black lacquer so I was not so concerned about the type of wood underneath.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Quartered oak on amp and table, I also  modified headphones to match. Took closed frame and made them open with other drivers.
> 
> Oh and Jedi can talk about dual pots since he has one of my amps, I do not always use them, but I do on my personal amps till someone needs one. The honey locust amp will never be for sale.


Dual volume knobs work out well.. always been a fan of this design (La Figaro 339)  Darkvoice in the background.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Dual volume knobs work out well.. always been a fan of this design (La Figaro 339)  Darkvoice in the background.



But dual volume knobs means it takes exactly _twice_ as much time to turn the volume up or down.  I am _way_ too lazy to spend that kind of time.  And then what if you forget to turn one of the knobs along with the other?  Hours spent swapping tubes, running them through the tester trying to figure out which one has the low emission triode, and then wondering what's wrong with your tester when they measure fine, and then it's time for bed but you can't sleep because you know something is wrong with your system, so you get up at 3 AM to try something you just thought of, it doesn't work of course, so you try to go to sleep again and then end up oversleeping and late for work (for those that still do that) and your boss is pissed and you have to work through lunch and then you're hungry and still can't get any productive work done because the system nervosa is overloading your brain, and then you finally get home and the honey-do list hits you and you're tired and hungry so you bark at the wife, and now she's pissed and you're even more miserable, and....damn,  the mind boggles.  Give me a single pot.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> But dual volume knobs means it takes exactly _twice_ as much time to turn the volume up or down.  I am _way_ too lazy to spend that kind of time.  And then what if you forget to turn one of the knobs along with the other?  Hours spent swapping tubes, running them through the tester trying to figure out which one has the low emission triode, and then wondering what's wrong with your tester when they measure fine, and then it's time for bed but you can't sleep because you know something is wrong with your system, so you get up at 3 AM to try something you just thought of, it doesn't work of course, so you try to go to sleep again and then end up oversleeping and late for work (for those that still do that) and your boss is pissed and you have to work through lunch and then you're hungry and still can't get any productive work done because the system nervosa is overloading your brain, and then you finally get home and the honey-do list hits you and you're tired and hungry so you bark at the wife, and now she's pissed and you're even more miserable, and....damn,  the mind boggles.  Give me a single pot.


Hahaha  hilarious.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> But dual volume knobs means it takes exactly _twice_ as much time to turn the volume up or down.  I am _way_ too lazy to spend that kind of time.  And then what if you forget to turn one of the knobs along with the other?  Hours spent swapping tubes, running them through the tester trying to figure out which one has the low emission triode, and then wondering what's wrong with your tester when they measure fine, and then it's time for bed but you can't sleep because you know something is wrong with your system, so you get up at 3 AM to try something you just thought of, it doesn't work of course, so you try to go to sleep again and then end up oversleeping and late for work (for those that still do that) and your boss is pissed and you have to work through lunch and then you're hungry and still can't get any productive work done because the system nervosa is overloading your brain, and then you finally get home and the honey-do list hits you and you're tired and hungry so you bark at the wife, and now she's pissed and you're even more miserable, and....damn,  the mind boggles.  Give me a single pot.


 why am I still here...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> But dual volume knobs means it takes exactly _twice_ as much time to turn the volume up or down.  I am _way_ too lazy to spend that kind of time.  And then what if you forget to turn one of the knobs along with the other?  Hours spent swapping tubes, running them through the tester trying to figure out which one has the low emission triode, and then wondering what's wrong with your tester when they measure fine, and then it's time for bed but you can't sleep because you know something is wrong with your system, so you get up at 3 AM to try something you just thought of, it doesn't work of course, so you try to go to sleep again and then end up oversleeping and late for work (for those that still do that) and your boss is pissed and you have to work through lunch and then you're hungry and still can't get any productive work done because the system nervosa is overloading your brain, and then you finally get home and the honey-do list hits you and you're tired and hungry so you bark at the wife, and now she's pissed and you're even more miserable, and....damn,  the mind boggles.  Give me a single pot.


You got a single pot on the amp I gave you. One single mono pot, you will need to pay dearly for a second amp so you have stereo. I figured you would have caught on by now.😜


----------



## bcowen (Dec 17, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> You got a single pot on the amp I gave you. One single mono pot, you will need to pay dearly for a second amp so you have stereo. I figured you would have caught on by now.😜



So then it's *not* 147 tubes with one dead triode?  Great.  Thanks for telling me now.  I just bought a lot of 500 1963 Melz 1578's hoping at least _one_ would have two working triodes. Sigh.  I'm sending them all to you to resolder the pins.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So then it's *not* 147 tubes with one dead triode?  Great.  Thanks for telling me now.  I just bought a lot of 500 1963 Melz 1578's hoping at least _one_ would have two working triodes. Sigh.  I'm sending them all to you to resolder the pins.


Np I would be happy to help next year, er make that next, next year.


----------



## JKDJedi

The truth of the matter is the dual volume knob design helped me save a tube last week. A 5998 was sent to me from Australia. The member ordered 3-4 of these and and one arrived with the right channel not working. I asked if I could have a go at it and see if I could revive the tube. To my surprise he shipped the tube to me. It arrived in bad shape. I gave it my all making nthis thing look normal again. it was bad. So after the work I did to it I popped it into the Incubus and sadly only the left channel worked. I was ready to pull the tube out and add it to the dead tube pile before trying one last little thing.. maxing out the right channel volume. On my Darkvoice this would of been a signed sealed dead tube. On the Incubus as I raised the right volume near max....I heard music... O.O I felt like Thomas Edison. After one track going into the 2nd I noticed the right channel beginning to get louder. . I had to turn the volume down...and this pattern kept going until the 4th track where both volume knobs were even! The only thing I could think about is the resoldering was settling in as the tube cooked in the amp. Anyways, The member did get a replacement tube from the vendor, and was excited that I got the left for dead tube going, he gifted the tube to me and applauded my efforts.  It was @Paladin79 and @bcowen who taught me the pin soldering way.. and I'd like to thank @lycos for sending that tube to me . that was fun to do.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The truth of the matter is the dual volume knob design helped me save a tube last week. A 5998 was sent to me from Australia. The member ordered 3-4 of these and and one arrived with the right channel not working. I asked if I could have a go at it and see if I could revive the tube. To my surprise he shipped the tube to me. It arrived in bad shape. I gave it my all making nthis thing look normal again. it was bad. So after the work I did to it I popped it into the Incubus and sadly only the left channel worked. I was ready to pull the tube out and add it to the dead tube pile before trying one last little thing.. maxing out the right channel volume. On my Darkvoice this would of been a signed sealed dead tube. On the Incubus as I raised the right volume near max....I heard music... O.O I felt like Thomas Edison. After one track going into the 2nd I noticed the right channel beginning to get louder. . I had to turn the volume down...and this pattern kept going until the 4th track where both volume knobs were even! The only thing I could think about is the resoldering was settling in as the tube cooked in the amp. Anyways, The member did get a replacement tube from the vendor, and was excited that I got the left for dead tube going, he gifted the tube to me and applauded my efforts.  It was @Paladin79 and @bcowen who taught me the pin soldering way.. and I'd like to thank @lycos for sending that tube to me . that was fun to do.



Did the right channel in the Incubus work before that with other tubes?  LOLOLOL !


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Did the right channel in the Incubus work before that with other tubes?  LOLOLOL !


*Before


After

On the Incubus
*


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 17, 2020)

The Darkvoice loves the *Tung Sol 7236*. Floating a Sylvania in the drivers seat, coffee and... Groove Armada..  

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/08264a0e-de7d-43b3-b8f9-dd195c9565f1


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Darkvoice loves the *Tung Sol 7236*. Floating a Sylvania in the drivers seat, coffee and... Groove Armada..
> 
> https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/08264a0e-de7d-43b3-b8f9-dd195c9565f1



I haven't even tried the 7236 in the DV.  Thanks for reminding me those (Cetrons) are sitting on a shelf in the closet because the dang boxes are too big to fit in my Louis Vuitton tube case.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I haven't even tried the 7236 in the DV.  Thanks for reminding me those (Cetrons) are sitting on a shelf in the closet because the dang boxes are too big to fit in my Louis Vuitton tube case.



Your Louis Vuitton tube case is also bulletproof right I am assuming?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Did the right channel in the Incubus work before that with other tubes?  LOLOLOL !


This is where I thought you might give me credit for the soldering technique, instead you insult the Incubus. lol        Finnegan is not amused.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This is where I thought you might give me credit for the soldering technique, instead you insult the Incubus. lol        Finnegan is not amused.


He's on a good one this week .  .. I keep reminding myself to consider the source. .😝😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Your Louis Vuitton tube case is also bulletproof right I am assuming?



But of course!  It's also @Ripper2860 proof to prevent pilfering.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is where I thought you might give me credit for the soldering technique, instead you insult the Incubus. lol        Finnegan is not amused.



Finnegan is only upset that there are no tubes to play with.  Jedi should send you some now that he knows how to fix them.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The truth of the matter is the dual volume knob design helped me save a tube last week. A 5998 was sent to me from Australia. The member ordered 3-4 of these and and one arrived with the right channel not working. I asked if I could have a go at it and see if I could revive the tube. To my surprise he shipped the tube to me. It arrived in bad shape. I gave it my all making nthis thing look normal again. it was bad. So after the work I did to it I popped it into the Incubus and sadly only the left channel worked. I was ready to pull the tube out and add it to the dead tube pile before trying one last little thing.. maxing out the right channel volume. On my Darkvoice this would of been a signed sealed dead tube. On the Incubus as I raised the right volume near max....I heard music... O.O I felt like Thomas Edison. After one track going into the 2nd I noticed the right channel beginning to get louder. . I had to turn the volume down...and this pattern kept going until the 4th track where both volume knobs were even! The only thing I could think about is the resoldering was settling in as the tube cooked in the amp. Anyways, The member did get a replacement tube from the vendor, and was excited that I got the left for dead tube going, he gifted the tube to me and applauded my efforts.  It was @Paladin79 and @bcowen who taught me the pin soldering way.. and I'd like to thank @lycos for sending that tube to me . that was fun to do.


Oh so that’s all it needs.   Today, I’ll unplug one channel on the Sennheiser, put in that franken tube that has one dead triode and crank it.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Oh so that’s all it needs.   Today, I’ll unplug one channel on the Sennheiser, put in that franken tube that has one dead triode and crank it.


The unitube... resolder it, you forgot the resoldering..   oh wait that's a 7N7...  *RIP*. Even I couldn't help you with that one.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The unitube... resolder it, you forgot the resoldering..   oh wait that's a 7N7...  *RIP*. Even I couldn't help you with that one.



This is _always_ what happens when you get a HalfenFrank.  But hey, if you have dual volume controls you can turn down the working channel to match the silent one.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This is _always_ what happens when you get a HalfenFrank.  But hey, if you have dual volume controls you can turn down the working channel to match the silent one.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



LOL!!  But my logic is impeccable.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The unitube... resolder it, you forgot the resoldering..   oh wait that's a 7N7...  *RIP*. Even I couldn't help you with that one.


Good news! I unplugged my left channel, and turned the volume to max. As the tubes warmed up.. I heard the faint whisper of music. It’s there yes, maybe 1% or less. So I could channel match L to R with independent volume knobs and then amplify that signal coming out of the DV with another amp. Solved.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Good news! I unplugged my left channel, and turned the volume to max. As the tubes warmed up.. I heard the faint whisper of music. It’s there yes, maybe 1% or less. So I could channel match L to R with independent volume knobs and then amplify that signal coming out of the DV with another amp. Solved.


Sounds like a plan, not a good one, but a plan.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Good news! I unplugged my left channel, and turned the volume to max. As the tubes warmed up.. I heard the faint whisper of music. It’s there yes, maybe 1% or less. So I could channel match L to R with independent volume knobs and then amplify that signal coming out of the DV with another amp. Solved.



Or maybe buy another Frankie for $10?   I know, I know...that's a lot to spend just for 2 channels at the same time.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Sounds like a plan, not a good one, but a plan.


I was gonna respond..but this'll do.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Or maybe buy another Frankie for $10?   I know, I know...that's a lot to spend just for 2 channels at the same time.


I have only seen one for sale. And I bought it.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I have only seen one for sale. And I bought it.


There's one out there but a little high for a Sylvania. $30 shipped from New York on Etsy. I just messaged them asking for test numbers.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I have only seen one for sale. And I bought it.


Bill bought them all up most likely.


----------



## JKDJedi

So..anybody else roll tubes here besides me? Lets see some pics folks.. 

Darkone on da Darkness..


----------



## therremans (Dec 17, 2020)




----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So..anybody else roll tubes here besides me? Lets see some pics folks..
> 
> Darkone on da Darkness..



I don't have a camera.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I don't have a camera.


smartphone?


----------



## therremans (Dec 17, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> smartphone?


First the internet and now smartphones?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> First the internet and now smartphones?


It's so easy, a caveman can do it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> smartphone?



Well, yeah, of course. Everyone has those these days.  But mine doesn't have a flash.  Guess I'm limited to daytime pictures?


----------



## therremans

Cardas 4x24 AWG Shielded - *$22.40* *$14.50/ft.*
Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad High Definition Microphone Signal Cable - *$1.58/ft.*

Damn that is expensive cable. I can't see it being much better than the Mogami I have. Build wise, I felt the Mogami wins over Canare. I want to build a cable for my DT1990s soon.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Cardas 4x24 AWG Shielded - *$22.40* *$14.50/ft.*
> Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad High Definition Microphone Signal Cable - *$1.58/ft.*
> 
> Damn that is expensive cable. I can't see it being much better than the Mogami I have. Build wise, I felt the Mogami wins over Canare. I want to build a cable for my DT1990s soon.



The Cardas may be (and probably is) extremely good wire, but it's a PITA (for me, anyway) with the enamel coating that has to be burned off. If you have a solder pot it's no biggie, but without one it's difficult to know if you're totally down to the base metal in each strand.   

http://www.cardas.com/litz.php


This is what you need.  If you're going to braid it and IIRC, @Paladin79 told me you need about 30' to end up with a 6' finished cable.
(and yes, I'm kidding. That would be insane, even for me).


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> The Cardas may be (and probably is) extremely good wire, but it's a PITA (for me, anyway) with the enamel coating that has to be burned off. If you have a solder pot it's no biggie, but without one it's difficult to know if you're totally down to the base metal in each strand.
> 
> http://www.cardas.com/litz.php
> 
> ...


$16.10 x 10 (ft) x 4 (quantity) =* $644*


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> $16.10 x 10 (ft) x 4 (quantity) =* $644*



An audio bargain!  And for bonus consideration, for every foot you move your listening chair closer to your amp, you save $64.40.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> An audio bargain!  And for bonus consideration, for every foot you move your listening chair closer to your amp, you save $64.40.



Lol.  I've recently made a power cable and an rca interconnect out of a couple types of Duelund wire and I'm smitten.  I may try a headphone cable next.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> Lol.  I've recently made a power cable and an rca interconnect out of a couple types of Duelund wire and I'm smitten.  I may try a headphone cable next.



I've heard good things about the Dueland wire but have never tried it myself. If you make a HP cable with it, please let us know how it turns out.


----------



## DeweyCH




----------



## Paladin79

I cannot get into many discussions on wire because I am not a sponsor but I have conducted blind listening on most any type wire you can imagine and hearing much difference in quality wire types is minimal. A signal cannot be improved, it can only be maintained. That being said I have met one person who could consistently identify a specific wire type over another in blind tests.    I am probably more concerned with consistent braiding and sleeve material if one is used, I use cotton in many cases.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> *ALPS Blue RK27 install *_(normal wiring, knurled shaft for use with factory knob)
> Note: Mine has the LED bias installed and pre-amp output d/c._
> 
> 
> ...


Very, very, very stupid question here... but am I correct in that the little metal rods that go to the case and the jack are the grounds?

Just so I can me-proof this, here's what I think I would need to do for this mod:

1 - open the case (duh)
2 - desolder all of the solder points on top of the PCB attached to the stock pot
3 - unscrew the nut on the front of the stock pot
4 - lift out the stock pot
5 - pop my Alps pot into some prototyping board
6 - solder the two metal rods to one spot each on the prototyping board
7 - solder each channel's ground wire onto their own spot on the board
8 - flow solder lines to connect 1 metal rod to 1 channel's ground, then the other metal rod to the other ground
9 - flow solder lines to connect each rod to one of the ground pins on the Alps pot
10 - solder the in and out left and right wires to the appropriate pot pins

Does that all track? I've got perf board that's just copper holes so I figure everything I solder up will be with simple solder lines.

(I've soldered a few things before, but never using a perf board, so just want to make sure I don't bork anything)


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Very, very, very stupid question here... but am I correct in that the little metal rods that go to the case and the jack are the grounds?
> 
> Just so I can me-proof this, here's what I think I would need to do for this mod:
> 
> ...


I just skimmed it but it looks to be correct. 

If I decide to do one I would use individual pots like the two in the upper right corner, one showing the inside workings of a stepped pot. Top left is a single gang ladder pot. Then a dual gang alps I have used plenty of times. The single gang pots from Alps are very hard to find and seldom in use anymore because of size, but they are wonderful pots.

You can just take the drawing of the dual gang pot and figure the wiring from there. I would obviously use a larger cabinet cause these sure will not fit in a standard darkvoice case.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 18, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Very, very, very stupid question here... but am I correct in that the little metal rods that go to the case and the jack are the grounds?
> 
> Just so I can me-proof this, here's what I think I would need to do for this mod:
> 
> ...


Prototyping board is???? This? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081K18P9...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
 and necessary?


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Prototyping board is???? This? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081K18P9...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
> and necessary?


Yeah, it was in the picture setup so I figure it makes it easier to put everything together.

Incidentally, @Paladin79 , thank you for answering my question. Another stupid one... the diagram for the shunt mod has it going input --> resistor --> pot pin --> output. If I'm attaching both the resistor (input) and the output to the same pin, why does the signal not then bypass the pot entirely and go straight into the output?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Prototyping board is???? This? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081K18P9...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
> and necessary?


Not having worked with the DV much I cannot comment on the need to prototype a board but the product you show would work. It is a good idea to use a sharp pick to enlarge the holes just a bit, but it is doable. It is also a good thing to use if you want to change the value of a given pot with resistors.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, it was in the picture setup so I figure it makes it easier to put everything together.
> 
> Incidentally, @Paladin79 , thank you for answering my question. Another stupid one... the diagram for the shunt mod has it going input --> resistor --> pot pin --> output. If I'm attaching both the resistor (input) and the output to the same pin, why does the signal not then bypass the pot entirely and go straight into the output?


I see it now..weird how I missed it..lol.. I thought it (the board) was stock on the Darkvoice.. been awhile since I looked under there. Well great..now I have to study 101 prototyping board soldering. Gonna have me some fun these next two weeks  or not.. What could go wrong!?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 18, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, it was in the picture setup so I figure it makes it easier to put everything together.
> 
> Incidentally, @Paladin79 , thank you for answering my question. Another stupid one... the diagram for the shunt mod has it going input --> resistor --> pot pin --> output. If I'm attaching both the resistor (input) and the output to the same pin, why does the signal not then bypass the pot entirely and go straight into the output?



A pot is a fixed resistance from the input to ground. When bridging the pot you change the overall resistance, you need to understand how resistance in parallel works but essentially you are changing a fixed value. The wiper arm travels along that resistance, so instead of say 5 k out, you might now have 2.5 k out, the signal travel does not change, just the overall resistance and the resistance to the wiper.

Resistance in series is additive, put a 100k resistor in front of the input on a 100k pot and you have a total resistance of 200k. Measure the wiper to ground and that resistance changes as well. It should go up now.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I see it now..weird how I missed it..lol.. I thought it (the board) was stock on the Darkvoice.. been awhile since I looked under there. Well great..now I have to study 101 prototyping board soldering. Gonna have me some fun these next two weeks  or not.. What could go wrong!?


Not really necessary unless you’re shunting the pot.


----------



## therremans (Dec 18, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> _6 - solder the two metal rods to one spot each on the prototyping board_


Yes, the 1/4” input jack has a ground coming over to the stock pot pcb. The other rail is from the circuit. I connected these together and ran a single wire off of it to simply things.


DeweyCH said:


> _7 - solder each channel's ground wire onto their own spot on the board_


This isn’t necessary. You can connect all of the grounds together. Besides the previous grounds mentioned. You have the input rca ground and the two grounds coming off of the 6sn7 socket. Do ground the RCA input to the pot. However you do not have to ground the wires coming off of the socket, if you take it apart you’ll see that it’s just a braided shield. You may want it but if you replace the wiring and things are cramped, try it without.


----------



## therremans (Dec 18, 2020)

Although, my Tung-Sol VT-163 rp no longer work with my amp. The National Unions are working very well. Ran through every output tube I own. In order of being the most dynamic and best performing. Bendix, Svetlana and then the Thomson 6080.

Edit: I am going to hang onto some of my VT-163s as the change is probably related from going to a 10k alps from something closer to 100k. A future pot or shunt may change things again. I don’t run these tubes often so it isn’t an issue.


----------



## DeweyCH

Progress pics:












I think this is reasonably set up. Please don't be too mean about my soldering skills. I'm trying. After reading @therremans last post, I may connect the two solder lines that go from the edge of the PCB to the four pins that are getting grounded (decided to do the shunt mod because, eff it, I've got the parts and can't do more damage with one mod vs. another). They need a little cleanup anyways.

Remaining steps, I think, are just to pop it in, solder the grounds on the ends of my narsty solder lines, and then insert and screw down the in and out cables in the two terminal blocks.

I'm aware I have a non-knurled pot, which won't play as nice with the stock knob. But I also own a Dremel so I can expand the knob's hole a touch. Or just buy a nicer knob. Maybe something aluminum.

Anything leap off the screen and say "MASSIVE ****-UP DO NOT PLUG IN"?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Progress pics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I generally just use step bits or reamers to enlarge an opening.
https://www.amazon.com/CO-Z-Titaniu...multiple+size+drill+bit&qid=1608333874&sr=8-6

And I have a couple sets of hole saws for metal including one the perfect size for VU meters, it took me a while to find that one.


----------



## therremans (Dec 18, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Progress pics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To make lines you can also just run leads, I cut some off of resistors. I suppose for the ground, whatever way you feel is cleaner as you can run the wire in various ways to bridge them all together.

Instead of soldering in that one end of the resistors, you could have them make the connection from the input to output wire terminals.

Oh and the important question, does it fit? Did you bore out the front yet?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> To make lines you can also just run leads, I cut some off of resistors. I suppose for the ground, whatever way you feel is cleaner as you can run the wire in various ways to bridge them all together.
> 
> Instead of soldering in that one end of the resistors, you could have them make the connection from the input to output wire terminals.
> 
> Oh and the important question, does it fit? Did you bore out the front yet?


Not yet. I haven't removed the stock pot yet, wanted to make sure the replacement was sanely wired first. But it should fit. That's next after I'm done with my students' final grades tonight


----------



## bcowen (Dec 18, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> I'm aware I have a non-knurled pot, which won't play as nice with the stock knob. But I also own a Dremel so I can expand the knob's hole a touch. Or just buy a nicer knob. Maybe something aluminum.



Fits perfectly on the Alps shaft and inside the recessed hole of the DV faceplate. And it has a setscrew so you can set the pointer however you like. I added a drop of white paint into the little detent on the front just to make it more visible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-30-22mm-High-End-Black-Solid-Aluminum-Knob-FR-Radio-Amp-Volume-Potentiometer/323866769806?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 18, 2020)

..


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> ..



Huh! Wha!
Did I miss out on a good knob joke here?


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Huh! Wha!
> Did I miss out on a good knob joke here?


nah .. lol.. I posted something silly and had a change of heart about it .  😐


----------



## therremans

Maximum height for the output caps is 37mm.


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> nah .. lol.. I posted something silly and had a change of heart about it .  😐



Never change your heart about silly things. That's what keeps the world entertaining… and divorce lawyers in business


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Never change your heart about silly things. That's what keeps the world entertaining… and divorce lawyers in business



LOL!  If I changed my mind about silly things I'd have a grand total of about 3 posts on HeadFi at this point.


----------



## HeatFan12

Tung Sol 5998 & Sylvania Gold 5670 (2C51) on a beautiful night in MIA. Solid and amazing sound. 
Cheers!!!


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> Tung Sol 5998 & Sylvania Gold 5670 (2C51) on a beautiful night in MIA. Solid and amazing sound.
> Cheers!!!



Nice!  And wherefrom is that 2C51 adapter?  I haven't seen one like that before. Looks very nicely made.


----------



## HeatFan12

bcowen said:


> Nice!  And wherefrom is that 2C51 adapter?  I haven't seen one like that before. Looks very nicely made.




Thanks!

Those are from the Singlepower amps I used to have.


----------



## HeatFan12

Adapters are a way of tube life. We have converted this amp into a monster.  And this is coming from someone who has over 200 6SN7 tubes that I have collected over the years. 
Cheers!  Good times!


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Adapters are a way of tube life. We have converted this amp into a monster.  And this is coming from someone who has over 200 6SN7 tubes that I have collected over the years.
> Cheers!  Good times!


Thanks for getting this thread going.. did you imagine it'd blow up like this? 😎👍


----------



## HeatFan12

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for getting this thread going.. did you imagine it'd blow up like this? 😎👍



Thanks.  

12 years ago I had no clue this thread would blow up like this.  We were rolling back then only 6SN7 and 6AS7 tubes.  So great to see it like this now.  The DV is a monster now with the cap mod and adapters.  Really great to see it blossom. Teamwork at its finest.


----------



## HeatFan12

Throw in an impedance adapter, and this amp can rock any phones. The days of OTL amps only good with high impedance phones are long gone.  We have to embrace the future. This amp has become a monster!


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Throw in an impedance adapter, and this amp can rock any phones. The days of OTL amps only good with high impedance phones are long gone.  We have to embrace the future. This amp has become a monster!


Impedance adapter .. that is new to me! Will have to Google that. 🙂


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 20, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Impedance adapter .. that is new to me! Will have to Google that. 🙂



New to me too - unless they're the same thing as an attenuator…
Luckily, there's a thread right here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed.601669/

<edit> to avoid confusion… when I say attenuator, I mean this: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/headphone-attenuation-adapter/


----------



## DenverW

HeatFan12 said:


> Adapters are a way of tube life. We have converted this amp into a monster.  And this is coming from someone who has over 200 6SN7 tubes that I have collected over the years.
> Cheers!  Good times!



I see some missing ones, time to get on that!  Cv6?


----------



## bcowen (Dec 20, 2020)

HeatFan12 said:


> Adapters are a way of tube life. We have converted this amp into a monster.  And this is coming from someone who has over 200 6SN7 tubes that I have collected over the years.
> Cheers!  Good times!



There's no such thing as 'too many adapters.'  It's when you start getting adapters for your adapters you realize you might have a problem.


----------



## bcowen

Today's roll:  '52 rib plate Foton 6N8S (pins resoldered, of course) and a '55 Chatham 6AS7G.  Rock'n'roll heaven!  I love it when both tubes are older than me, which is becoming more and more of a challenge.


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Throw in an impedance adapter, and this amp can rock any phones. The days of OTL amps only good with high impedance phones are long gone.  We have to embrace the future. This amp has become a monster!


I'm lucky that my *Fidelio X2* play well with the Darkvoice.  (my avatar) So well that I question the rated 30ohms on these cans.


----------



## HeatFan12

Very nice guys!!!
 Just shut mine down for a break. She had been running 12 straight hours.  Looking for another pair for her when she comes back up in an hour.
Good times!


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as 'too many adapters.'  It's when you start getting adapters for your adapters you realize you might have a problem.



Adapter flex!


----------



## HeatFan12

Spending a beautiful night in MIA with a Raytheon 6080WB & a nice GE 6BZ7


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> _...a nice GE..._



I see what you did there, but I recognize an oxymoron when I see one.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> To make lines you can also just run leads, I cut some off of resistors. I suppose for the ground, whatever way you feel is cleaner as you can run the wire in various ways to bridge them all together.
> 
> Instead of soldering in that one end of the resistors, you could have them make the connection from the input to output wire terminals.
> 
> Oh and the important question, does it fit? Did you bore out the front yet?


It didn't fit. PCB is too big and is blocked by the black-jacketed metal lines that run from the pre tube to the power tube.

C'est la vie. Gives me a chance to re-do the PCB and try and make it a little cleaner. And to not grab the metal part of the iron in a fit of not paying attention... again.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> Throw in an impedance adapter, and this amp can rock any phones. The days of OTL amps only good with high impedance phones are long gone.  We have to embrace the future. This amp has become a monster!



What adapter are you using anyhow?
The one thing that's been keeping me from getting one of these - and having to live vicariously through you guys - is none of my HP are even remotely high impedence.

Although at this point I'm probably so late to the party that @bcowen has bought up most of the tube supply and driven prices through the roof. Again


----------



## HeatFan12

bcowen said:


> I see what you did there, but I recognize an oxymoron when I see one.




LOL.  No way.  I have collected over 700 tubes of all families.  GEs are nice when compared to others.  I like them.  Solid sound.


At Mr. Trev, look at the first post of this thread.  I am using a 6FG7 adapter.  It is compatible with a bunch of different tubes..

Cheers!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Although at this point I'm probably so late to the party that @bcowen has bought up most of the tube supply and driven prices through the roof. Again



I'm hating myself in advance.


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> LOL.  No way.  I have collected over 700 tubes of all families.  GEs are nice when compared to others.  I like them.  Solid sound.
> 
> 
> At Mr. Trev, look at the first post of this thread.  I am using a 6FG7 adapter.  It is compatible with a bunch of different tubes..
> ...


Whats funny is what I gathered in advise and wisdom the few years here, was already laid out on the OP (Original Post) of this thread..O.O  Read it folks..


----------



## therremans

Would a choke replace the two green wirewound 10W 200ohm resistors that stick out from behind the three 1000uf caps or should they remain in?

I am needing some help figuring out which choke to purchase based on the DV transformer and measurements I can make. Also where the best place is to connect the leads. I am not familiar with installing a choke. Placement wise, it will have to go in the open space in the rear of the chasis. I can measure the voltage before and after to make sure it did not rise. How would I go about doing this measurement?


----------



## UntilThen

I can't believe @HeatFan12 is back again.   Hi there. Long time no see and long time since I had the DV 336se. I'm at the moment using the bigger brother La Figaro 339. Superb sound.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Whats funny is what I gathered in advise and wisdom the few years here, was already laid out on the OP (Original Post) of this thread..O.O  Read it folks..



You mean you're supposed to read page 1 of a thread?  Isn't that kind of like reading a manual?  Man, I'm old...


----------



## DeweyCH

HeatFan12 said:


> Very nice guys!!!
> Just shut mine down for a break. She had been running 12 straight hours.  Looking for another pair for her when she comes back up in an hour.
> Good times!


I'm not surprised that HeatFan12 likes to run his DV until you could cook bacon on it.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> LOL.  No way.  I have collected over 700 tubes of all families.  GEs are nice when compared to others.  I like them.  Solid sound.
> 
> 
> At Mr. Trev, look at the first post of this thread.  I am using a 6FG7 adapter.  It is compatible with a bunch of different tubes..
> ...


My bad. I should've mentioned impedence adapter. The pic you posted looked like a pair of Grados plugged into the DV. Just wondering what it takes to get those sounding good with this amp.


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

Sylvania 6SN7 GTB and Telefunken 6080 6AS7 20121. Pretty happy right now, changed the TRS socket as well.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 21, 2020)

therremans said:


> Would a choke replace the two green wirewound 10W 200ohm resistors that stick out from behind the three 1000uf caps or should they remain in?
> 
> I am needing some help figuring out which choke to purchase based on the DV transformer and measurements I can make. Also where the best place is to connect the leads. I am not familiar with installing a choke. Placement wise, it will have to go in the open space in the rear of the chasis. I can measure the voltage before and after to make sure it did not rise. How would I go about doing this measurement?



Hey @therremans - happy to help, give me a bit to look at the Darkvoice schematic / internals and I will find you a choke to use.  To answer your other question, in a cathode biased amplifier, you will not measure the grid voltage between grid and ground - the grid is at ground potential typically (0V) and the cathode is at a positive voltage above ground.  As such, the grid is negative _relative _to the cathode as it is at a lower voltage potential.  So, in cathode bias, to find out where the grid is, you actually measure the positive voltage between the cathode and ground - the grid will be equally negative as far as the tube bias point is concerned.  Measure the voltage from grid to cathode will get you the same answer.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 21, 2020)

@therremans so based on the measurements / picture you sent, it looks like the Darkvoice uses a CRCRC (1000uF - 200ohm - 1000uF - 200ohm - 1000uF) filter before the B+ hits the plate of the 6080 at 142V.  Then there is an additional CRC (220uF - 200ohm - 220uF) before the B+ hits the 6SN7 plate at 141V.

Best place to put the choke is in the first CRC of the supply, changing the first filter to CLCRC.  Based on the voltage drop across the first 200ohm resistor between the first two 1000uF caps, the DC current draw of the supply is:

205V - 173V = 32V (voltage drop across first 200ohm resistor)

By Ohm's Law:

I = V/R = 32V / 200ohm = 0.16A = 160mA

So we need a choke that can handle 160mA with some headroom to avoid saturation.  To keep the B+ roughly the same, and thus our tube bias points the same, we will also want to keep the DC resistance of the supply close to what it was.

So, a > 160mA choke with a 200ohm DC resistance and a >200VDC rating.

Best option I see is the Hammond 159R - 200mA, 150ohm DC resistance, 500VDC rating.  Good inductance too at 6H, question will probably be whether or not it can fit in the chassis.

Note that the DC resistance is lower than the original 200ohms of the resistor at 150ohms.  This will increase the output of the supply by approximately 8V, which honestly is unlikely to have any significant performance change in terms of the tube bias points.  But if you wanted to make up for it, you could change the second 200ohm 10W resistor in the supply to a 250ohm 10W resistor to keep the DC resistance consistent.

This is all based on the picture and measurements without a schematic, so if someone knows the innards of the Darkvoice better and see that I've overlooked something, feel free to point it out.

Now the next question is, do you really need the choke?  Are you able to hear 120Hz ripple?  There is a ton of capacitance in this power supply.  Based on my guesstimated PSDU2 sim, at C3 (cap that feeds the 6080), there should only be around 65uV peak-to-peak of ripple, that's pretty darn low.




Replacing the first resistor with the 159R choke and increasing the value of the second resistor to 250ohm will drop the ripple down to 5uV, absolutely destroyed in terms of audibility.  You may just be making what is already inaudible even more inaudible.  The issue with introducing a choke into an unregulated power supply is the possibility of introducing ringing into the supply with it as the LC filter will have a resonant frequency, but that is a whole other can of worms.

I would say if you want to give it a try, then go for it, it is easily reversible.


----------



## therremans (Dec 21, 2020)

Thank you


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> ?
> I am quite the amateur with understanding circuits or how to test them. Is the grid just all of the hot wires inside the amp, post transformer. What exactly is the cathode? Is that the grounded side or just one pin of the tube socket?
> 
> Is the power inside the amp DC or AC? I am not sure which setting to use on my DMM.



Okay, I think it would be valuable to take some time to learn how a tube works, what the different electrodes of a tube are called and what their function is, and generally how a tube amplifier works.

Check out Uncle Doug's YouTube channel to learn the basics of electronic components, how a tube functions, the names of the electrodes, etc.  Lots of good starter information there: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuR4hQTXkG_KxozLxwPzEjQ

It is in the context of guitar amplifiers, but all the same principles apply.

The take away from the wall of text above is that if you want to add a choke to the power supply, replace this resistor with the Hammond 159R.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, I think it would be valuable to take some time to learn how a tube works, what the different electrodes of a tube are called and what their function is, and generally how a tube amplifier works.
> 
> Check out Uncle Doug's YouTube channel to learn the basics of electronic components, how a tube functions, the names of the electrodes, etc.  Lots of good starter information there: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuR4hQTXkG_KxozLxwPzEjQ
> 
> ...


Thank you, I did not mean to have the ? mark starting my response. That was a typo. I was typing up a response and accidently hit submit! Working on a laptop has its annoyances. Thank you so much for your response. I will go over them and stay in touch.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Is the grid just all of the hot wires inside the amp, post transformer.



No, the grid is one of the three electrodes of a tube, it modulates the passage of AC current (music signal) across the vacuum of the tube from the cathode (where electrons are emitted) to the plate (where the electrons are collected).



therremans said:


> What exactly is the cathode? Is that the grounded side or just one pin of the tube socket?



The internal electrode where electrons are emitted.  In an indirectly heated tube, the temperature of the cathode is increased by the heater (glow inside the tube) until electrons on the surface of the cathode are excited to the point that they fly across the vacuum of the tube where they are drawn to the high positive voltage of the plate.  This is called thermionic emission.  The cathode is a specific pin on the tube.  Whether or not it is grounded is dependent on the type of biasing scheme used in the amplifier.



therremans said:


> Is the power inside the amp DC or AC? I am not sure which setting to use on my DMM.



It depends.  The B+ (high voltage feeding the plates of the tubes) is DC.  In an indirectly heated tube, the voltage feeding the heaters is most often AC since it is not in the signal path, but it can be DC too, heaters can take either.  Unless you are measuring the heater voltage or the voltage from the power transformer before the rectifier (that is, before it is rectified from AC to DC), you will nearly always use DC to make voltage measurements inside a tube amplifier.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Thank you, I did not mean to have the ? mark starting my response. That was a typo. I was typing up a response and accidently hit submit! Working on a laptop has its annoyances. Thank you so much for your response. I will go over them and stay in touch.



And no problem, happy to help


----------



## DeweyCH

Coming along, just need to connect up all the grounds and see if it works. I used my Dremel to cut space in the PCB and to cut off the nub on the front of the pot. Fits, finally. Somehow I think more talented modders would take somewhat less than a month to replace a pot, but I'm happy with the experience.


----------



## therremans (Dec 21, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Coming along, just need to connect up all the grounds and see if it works. I used my Dremel to cut space in the PCB and to cut off the nub on the front of the pot. Fits, finally. Somehow I think more talented modders would take somewhat less than a month to replace a pot, but I'm happy with the experience.


Coming along. I could be wrong but I think I see that your left and right channel wires are crossed on either end of the input or output side. Double check that. I tossed my first pcb and pot. The second build worked great for me while I used it.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 21, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Coming along, just need to connect up all the grounds and see if it works. I used my Dremel to cut space in the PCB and to cut off the nub on the front of the pot. Fits, finally. Somehow I think more talented modders would take somewhat less than a month to replace a pot, but I'm happy with the experience.



You did it!  Nice!  Always a blast when you get done with it....assuming it still works.  LOL!!!

I just wired directly to the pot in mine, but I didn't add any shunt resistors.  With the 20k pot, turns out they weren't needed (from a pot rotation perspective) as I now have most of my listening in the 10:00 - 12:00 position which is far enough into the pot's rotation to get good channel tracking.  I dispensed with the shielded wires between the pot and grid pins too...no hum at all.  I think the shielded wire is needed from the RCA's to the pot as that wire is passing right by all the power supply components, but once at the pot, the minimal distance between it and the grid pins makes it unnecessary. Certainly doesn't hurt anything to use shielded wires there, just makes the tight fit of things even more difficult.


----------



## UntilThen

@L0rdGwyn is the man. I only know the light bulb.

Want to rebuild my La Figaro, Gwyn ?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> @L0rdGwyn is the man. I only know the light bulb.
> 
> Want to rebuild my La Figaro, Gwyn ?



Lol, thanks UT.  A little busy with DIY shenanigans to rebuild the La Figaro, maybe a rain check


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Coming along. I could be wrong but I think I see that your left and right channel wires are crossed on either end of the input or output side. Double check that. I tossed my first pcb and pot. The second build worked great for me while I used it.


I don't think so; front is L, back is R, and the L and R outputs are yellow and red respectively, yes?
(Might be wrong though)


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You did it!  Nice!  Always a blast when you get done with it....assuming it still works.  LOL!!!
> 
> I just wired directly to the pot in mine, but I didn't add any shunt resistors.  With the 20k pot, turns out they weren't needed (from a pot rotation perspective) as I now have most of my listening in the 10:00 - 12:00 position which is far enough into the pot's rotation to get good channel tracking.  I dispensed with the shielded wires between the pot and grid pins too...no hum at all.  I think the shielded wire is needed from the RCA's to the pot as that wire is passing right by all the power supply components, but once at the pot, the minimal distance between it and the grid pins makes it unnecessary. Certainly doesn't hurt anything to use shielded wires there, just makes the tight fit of things even more difficult.


Pic downloaded for future reference!


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I don't think so; front is L, back is R, and the L and R outputs are yellow and red respectively, yes?
> (Might be wrong though)


Okay it was just the photo angle. Just wanted you to notice in case your left and right was swapped after install. Front can be L or R as long as the other end matches it. Yeah the red marked wire is right channel. What pot and resistor values did you choose again?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Okay it was just the photo angle. Just wanted you to notice in case your left and right was swapped after install. Front can be L or R as long as the other end matches it. Yeah the red marked wire is right channel. What pot and resistor values did you choose again?


50k and 47k respectively


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Lol, thanks UT.  A little busy with DIY shenanigans to rebuild the La Figaro, maybe a rain check



I want the Figaro to run on ECC82 and EL34. Let’s see if it can sound as good as the Auris Nirvana that I heard with LCD-4.

You have up to next Easter to complete it for me and rain checks no can do. 🤗


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> 50k and 47k respectively


Nice, those are the same values I used when I shunted mine.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Nice, those are the same values I used when I shunted mine.


I've been ripping off your process from step one.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> I want the Figaro to run on ECC82 and EL34. Let’s see if it can sound as good as the Auris Nirvana that I heard with LCD-4.
> 
> You have up to next Easter to complete it for me and rain checks no can do. 🤗



Haha well the La Figaro is an OTL, the Auris Nirvana is a SET design, I'm afraid those EL34 would not sound very good in the La Figaro topology  they really need an output transformer to shine. Wow, $6K for that amp!  Would love to see a picture of the circuit.  No headphone needs 6.5W of an EL34, realistically.  Someone could build a fixed bias version of that amp with a 5K output transformer with low distortion and still drive every headphone ever made to ear / headphone destroying volumes for a quarter of the cost with better parts.  Would also swap the ECC82 driver to two single-triode input tubes with an active load.


----------



## UntilThen

Believe me Gwyn, LCD-4 loves the 6.5w of the EL34. My head was bobbing away and it is bass with seismic wav


----------



## UntilThen

Believe me Gwyn, LCD-4 loves the 6.5w of the EL34. My head was bobbing away and it is bass with seismic waves. I wouldn’t change a thing on the Nirvana really. So good it was, it’s still in my mind 3 days later. I have no doubt it will drive Susvara like a lamb.


----------



## UntilThen

Yup I need you to turn Figaro into a set amp. 😃


----------



## therremans

Thank you @bcowen + @L0rdGwyn. I just took the leads from my DMM to the heater coming off for the LED and then ground for the other. 6.6v AC. That is close to the 6.3v the tubes want. 
Now let me move the amp back over to my desk and plug it back into the Variac (110V) and measure.. I only get 5.9v. Increasing the Variac to 116v, gives me a steady 6.3v.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Fair enough!  But I'm just saying, 6.5W into the LCD-4 would get you 135dB peaks, ouch!  1% of that amplifier's total output power would probably damage the listener's hearing at 115dB with the LCD-4.  I am considering an EL34 SET design for next year, to be continued...



therremans said:


> Thank you @bcowen + @L0rdGwyn. I just took the leads from my DMM to the heater coming off for the LED and then ground for the other. 6.6v AC. That is close to the 6.3v the tubes want.
> Now let me move the amp back over to my desk and plug it back into the Variac (110V) and measure.. I only get 5.9v. Increasing the Variac to 116v, gives me a steady 6.3v.



No problem, that is totally fine, +/- 10% of the rated heater voltage will not damage the tubes, you're good!


----------



## DeweyCH

I think I made a ground loop. Problem is, I'm not totally sure what a ground loop is and how to fix it. Basically, it's all together, all wired up, it powers on, and it hums like a mofo.





I'm like 90% sure the problem is that soldered-together abomination of a grounding solution... I soldered all 3 ground wires together and then to another wire running to the ground connection to the headphone jack. I'm sure this is wrong. Please, please, someone tell me how wrong and what to do. Thank you.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I think I made a ground loop. Problem is, I'm not totally sure what a ground loop is and how to fix it. Basically, it's all together, all wired up, it powers on, and it hums like a mofo.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm like 90% sure the problem is that soldered-together abomination of a grounding solution... I soldered all 3 ground wires together and then to another wire running to the ground connection to the headphone jack. I'm sure this is wrong. Please, please, someone tell me how wrong and what to do. Thank you.


That might not be the issue. Is the pot tightened and snug to the chassis?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> That might not be the issue. Is the pot tightened and snug to the chassis?


Yup. Just tried to tighten it a bit more, moved the nut like five degrees but it's super tight.


----------



## HeatFan12

UntilThen said:


> I can't believe @HeatFan12 is back again.   Hi there. Long time no see and long time since I had the DV 336se. I'm at the moment using the bigger brother La Figaro 339. Superb sound.



Lol. No way?!!  My Canadian friend. How are you?  We made this thread what it is today. Such good times. I took a break but now I’m back. Trying to decide what to go for tonight. Covid made me buy more tubes and adapters. She has some nerve.


----------



## DeweyCH

I wonder if... that blob of solder holding my ground wires together is probably touching the bottom of the chassis. Is that a problem?
And if it helps, the hum is consistent regardless of pot position.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> That might not be the issue. Is the pot tightened and snug to the chassis?



Good point.  By sawing off the locator pin on the pot, you may not have the pot grounded to the chassis very well.  I scraped all the paint off around the hole that the shaft goes through so that my washers and nut securing the shaft were touching bare metal, as well as scraping off the paint on the inside of the DV's front where the metal front of the pot contacts it.  If you haven't scraped the paint (and minus the locator pin that helps act as a ground point), that will be a problem.

But I'm also confused when you say "3 grounds."  There is the bus bar ground, the HP jack ground, and the 2 grounds (one per channel) from the pot that must all be tied together.


----------



## UntilThen

@HeatFan12 you have been away too long. You’re confusing me for Canadian but I’m Australian. 🤪

Anyhoo I remember page 1 cartoon. We were tube rolling so much that you posted that crazy Professor doing some crazy lab mixing, I told you that should go on page 1 and you did it. 😃

I do miss the DarkVoice 336se. Might get a new one again just for the fun of it.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Good point.  By sawing off the locator pin on the pot, you may not have the pot grounded to the chassis very well.  I scraped all the paint off around the hole that the shaft goes through so that my washers and nut securing the shaft were touching bare metal, as well as scraping off the paint on the inside of the DV's front where the metal front of the pot contacts it.  If you haven't scraped the paint (and minus the locator pin that helps act as a ground point), that will be a problem.
> 
> But I'm also confused when you say "3 grounds."  There is the bus bar ground, the HP jack ground, and the 2 grounds (one per channel) from the pot that must all be tied together.


I didn't tie the bus bar ground in. There's my problem


----------



## HeatFan12

UntilThen said:


> @HeatFan12 you have been away too long. You’re confusing me for Canadian but I’m Australian. 🤪
> 
> Anyhoo I remember page 1 cartoon. We were tube rolling so much that you posted that crazy Professor doing some crazy lab mixing, I told you that should go on page 1 and you did it. 😃
> 
> I do miss the DarkVoice 336se. Might get a new one again just for the fun of it.



Lol. My bad. That’s right. Down under. Land of Oz. Been a while brother. We had some great times on here. 12 years later we are still rocking this thread thanks to you.


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan12 said:


> Lol. My bad. That’s right. Down under. Land of Oz. Been a while brother. We had some great times on here. 12 years later we are still rocking this thread thanks to you.



You remember a guy pop in once while we were talking here? He said that DV336se is a bad boy. It’s the start of his tube amp addiction, all the way to his EC 445.

Looking back, I’ve had so many more tube amps after DV336se. Far too many amps and far too many tubes. They keep popping up faster than I can sell them.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well, this is strange. I connected the bus bar ground, and the hum's gone. But I feel like Chewbacca reassembling C3P0 - "You idiot! I'm backwards!"
Volume control doesn't control volume per se.... it seems to control balance? Er.. no, it's only controlling volume on the right channel. Left is full-bore all the time.


----------



## DeweyCH

I will say this, though... with volume at max and my source's gain dialed down this sounds reeeeeeeeally good with my AKGs.


----------



## HeatFan12

UntilThen said:


> You remember a guy pop in once while we were talking here? He said that DV336se is a bad boy. It’s the start of his tube amp addiction, all the way to his EC 445.
> 
> Looking back, I’ve had so many more tube amps after DV336se. Far too many amps and far too many tubes. They keep popping up faster than I can sell them.



Lol. I hear ya. But I have too much invested in the DV and my maxxed WA2. I interchange tubes with them and adapters. I have a lot. Throw in my tube tester and it will be a loss on my part if I sell. The DV has become a monster for 250 beans. I am proud to be a pioneer of it, along with you.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Well, this is strange. I connected the bus bar ground, and the hum's gone. But I feel like Chewbacca reassembling C3P0 - "You idiot! I'm backwards!"
> Volume control doesn't control volume per se.... it seems to control balance? Er.. no, it's only controlling volume on the right channel. Left is full-bore all the time.


Post some most close up photos of the pot and I’ll see if anything stands out to me.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Post some most close up photos of the pot and I’ll see if anything stands out to me.


Ugh no need. You spotted it already. I did reverse the channels. Wasn’t the camera angle.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> @HeatFan12 you have been away too long. You’re confusing me for Canadian but I’m Australian. 🤪



Canadian… Australian… 
We both like beer, what's the diff?


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan12 said:


> Lol. I hear ya. But I have too much invested in the DV and my maxxed WA2. I interchange tubes with them and adapters. I have a lot. Throw in my tube tester and it will be a loss on my part if I sell. The DV has become a monster for 250 beans. I am proud to be a pioneer of it, along with you.



I should have stayed with only DV336SE. That way I have more to spend on headphones.

I already have HD800, HD650, LCD-X, LCD-3f, Verite O and I’m about to get a HE1000se. No idea why I need so many headphones and 3 amps but I think the HE1000se will be special.

Good luck HeatFan and I will come on from time to time to roll my LF339 with your DV336SE 😃


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> Canadian… Australian…
> We both like beer, what's the diff?



Yup and we’re both addicted to head-fi.

Cheers


----------



## HeatFan12

Haha. You gotta love this place!  









Modest evening in MIA tonight. RCA 6AS7G (one of the first tubes I ever purchased 😱)
And Tung Sol 6BZ8. Spankin’ the modest Beyers DT 770s.

Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

This brings back the old times HeatFan. I'm glad you came back.  

My current tube amps are:-

Oblivion by Ultrasonic Studio
La Figaro 339
Woo Audio WA22

Sold off ALO Audio Studio Six only this year and Glenn OTL amp last year. Both superb amps which I miss but I'm now itching for an improved DNA Stratus or the ridiculously priced Auris Nirvana. 

Btw I've RCA 6as7g right now in my LF339.


----------



## HeatFan12

UntilThen said:


> I want the Figaro to run on ECC82 and EL34. Let’s see if it can sound as good as the Auris Nirvana that I heard with LCD-4.
> 
> You have up to next Easter to complete it for me and rain checks no can do. 🤗



Wow!  What amp is that UT?  I have been gone a long time.  Have not kept up with the new money draining amps.  Beautiful.  But it's great to be back.  Especially running into you.

When I joined here, the go to headphones were the Senns PX100 and Grados SR60.


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Haha. You gotta love this place!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





HeatFan12 said:


> Wow!  What amp is that UT?  I have been gone a long time.  Have not kept up with the new money draining amps.  Beautiful.  But it's great to be back.  Especially running into you.
> 
> When I joined here, the go to headphones were the Senns PX100 and Grados SR60.


It's a deep rabbit hole. ... be warned...


----------



## HeatFan12

JKDJedi said:


> It's a deep rabbit hole. ... be warned...



Lol. I can imagine JKD.

I was browsing the portable headphone forum. I have gone portable the last few years. I’m an iPhone hoe.
They actually have IEMs now that are like $5000.  Is that a typo?  They are less than an inch and go in your ear?  How are you gonna charge 5K for something like that?  It’s like rubber in your ear.

Please guys, if I ever decide to pay that much for a piece of rubber in my ear, stop me please.

5K for an iem better come with a stripper pole and seven strippers for the week.

What are people thinking? That’s why this thread is da bomb. A $250 amp that can become a monster.
Cheers!


----------



## therremans




----------



## UntilThen

I’m a naughty sexy rabbit by now hahaha.

Auris Nirvana driving Audeze LCD-4 is da bomb. I’ll take that over 7 strippers on a pole. 😁

However the HiFiMan HE1000se that I’m about to get will sound good even off my iPhone 11 Pro Max but with Oblivion I would expect 7 strippers walking on water !


----------



## UntilThen

Hmmm @therremans you’re getting fancy in your tube rolling


----------



## HeatFan12

Lol. Good times my friend.

But help me understand UT. Yes, I have been gone a while, but still a tube freak. The new amps are getting bigger with more tubes to boot, but the current to drive low impedance phones has not changed. The 339 is an amazing amp but OTL at the end of the day. My little LDI+ spanks all my low impedance phones for a little over 100 beans. You know I have two of them. One set for EF91/92/M8161 etc. the other with the 6AK5/5654 family. Hate changing jumpers.

The HE-6 is the hardest phone to drive (excluding pure electrostatics).  Have these new tube amps been up to the task to drive them?  I have listened to the HE-6 getting spanked by some Audio-GD gear.  But that’s solid state. But tubes have never come close to get them to their potential.

I am just curious brother. My days of spending money on here are long gone. I have dropped over 50K since 2006 on here. I’m just an enthusiast now that tries to bring the DV 336SE and the WA2 to new levels. 

Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

HF, that's a lot of questions in one post and I'm good at derailing threads so I'll oblige with my answers.

I'll start off with the HE-6. I was initially interested with the new HE6se but after reading on impressions, I realised that I might prefer the HE1000se instead. Of course I would have preferred the Susvara instead but that is more expensive than the Gentlemen's club membership. So I'm not after HE6se purely because I could test out an amp's muscle. I have to like how it sound.

Secondly, I'm also a tube amp aficionado. Having had Schiit Ragnarok, Jotunheim, Burson Conductor V2+ and a whole string of tube amps, I know which I prefer. I just happen to like my tube amps better. I've been through Feliks Elise, Euforia, La Figaro 339, Glenn OTL amp, Studio Six, Oblivion, WA22, I just love those tube amps.

I have also spend 2 weeks with a friend's Woo Audio WA5LE with Takatsuki 300b tubes in my home. I do love that too. I have also heard Susvara driven by WA33 at the Sydney HiFi show several years ago. That moment was also akin to the Nirvana + LCD-4 moment.

When I heard the Auris Nirvana + LCD-4, I love it not for the amp's powerful 6.5w of tornado force but rather I like it for the way the LCD-4 sound to my ears. The clarity of a nightingale, sweet midrange of the best female singers or male for that matter and bass with the force of seismic waves. No I do not crave power for the sake of power but this is control, effortlessly and with precision. That's when you feel the music as well as hear it. I did not want to go home that day !

Now all the tube amps I mentioned above which I've owned or are still owning, can drive all my headphones - HD800, LCD-3f, LCD-X, Verite Open, HD650, Beyer T1.2 *but* some just drive them better than others. Some by a lot.

No you don't have to spend anymore but ..... if there is one more amp that I have to entice you with, without taking your Christmas turkey away from you or your drone toy, then it would be the LF339i. That is the bigger brother of your DV 336se. Believe me, it's more than twice the fun and enjoyment of your 336se.  

Ok back to tube rolling on DV336se .....


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan12 said:


> I’m just an enthusiast now that tries to bring the DV 336SE and the WA2 to new levels.



You can only bring those 2 amps to a certain level. No matter how much you tune a Mini Minor, you won't turn into a Lamborghini haha. However some of us might just like the Mini Minor as it is. It's a fun car ! and I think it's cute.


----------



## UntilThen

Did I send everyone away?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh no need. You spotted it already. I did reverse the channels. Wasn’t the camera angle.



Did you fix it?  I hope? The problem as you were describing it sounds like more than just the channels being reversed.

Just a note of caution: Alps specifies a soldering procedure for the pot, which for the RK271 we're using is a max tip temperature of 662(f) for 5 seconds max...1 time.  I'm used to soldering with a tip temp around 750, so I had to make a mental note to turn my station down before soldering to the pot pins, and then made sure to get the heat on and off quickly. I would assume if you exceed these parameters by much that you'll risk warping (or even melting) the conductive plastic wafers inside, and then end up with a pot that may perform more poorly (if at all) than the stock pot.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Did I send everyone away?



Not at all!  We're just huddled up in the corner over here trying to determine the most respectful way to let you, um, _veterans_ know that dual triode tubes are so...so...2008-ish.     

Monster amps should also _look_ like monster amps, no?   

RCA 6L5's with Bendix graphite plate 6080:


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Not at all! We're just huddled up in the corner over here trying to determine the most respectful way to let you, um, _veterans_ know that dual triode tubes are so...so...2008-ish.
> 
> Monster amps should also _look_ like monster amps, no?



Haha I like you. Your sense of humour is good as mine. If you think yours is monster amp, you should see what I did to my Feliks Elise amp. I gave her a facelift and mind you, this actually sound good.


----------



## Slade01

UntilThen said:


> Haha I like you. Your sense of humour is good as mine. If you think yours is monster amp, you should see what I did to my Feliks Elise amp. I gave her a facelift and mind you, this actually sound good.



Not that monster-ish, but off the beaten path.  Trying for a quad-GEC setup.  Except this experiment was not a success but live and learn...


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Did you fix it?  I hope? The problem as you were describing it sounds like more than just the channels being reversed.
> 
> Just a note of caution: Alps specifies a soldering procedure for the pot, which for the RK271 we're using is a max tip temperature of 662(f) for 5 seconds max...1 time.  I'm used to soldering with a tip temp around 750, so I had to make a mental note to turn my station down before soldering to the pot pins, and then made sure to get the heat on and off quickly. I would assume if you exceed these parameters by much that you'll risk warping (or even melting) the conductive plastic wafers inside, and then end up with a pot that may perform more poorly (if at all) than the stock pot.


I fixed the imbalance, but now neither actually changes volume when I turn the pot. 100% all the time. Sounds great... but ugh. I may well have melted something in the pot.
Question: the middle pins are the wipers, yes? But they're just connected to ground in this setup?

Here's kind of my current setup:





When I had it wired like this, the left channel was at 100%, right was controlled by the pot. This morning I switched the two inptus in the screw terminals, and now I'm at 100% output on both channels.

And again, it sounds... effing amazing. But I have to use the gain pot on my JDS switcher to control the volume. Somehow I don't think leaving the amp at full blast and controlling the source gain is a particularly good long-term decision.

Really, it sounds almost like the pot is being bypassed somehow, like the signal is going straight


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Haha I like you. Your sense of humour is good as mine. If you think yours is monster amp, you should see what I did to my Feliks Elise amp. I gave her a facelift and mind you, this actually sound good.


Keep it away from hunting season. That's a hell of a buck right there.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Haha I like you. Your sense of humour is good as mine. If you think yours is monster amp, you should see what I did to my Feliks Elise amp. I gave her a facelift and mind you, this actually sound good.



Dang it!  Back to the huddle, guys.


----------



## DeweyCH

I wonder if my ground connections to the pot are borked.


----------



## UntilThen

Slade01 said:


> Not that monster-ish, but off the beaten path.  Trying for a quad-GEC setup.  Except this experiment was not a success but live and learn...



Those GEC L63 are great sounding tubes. I use a pair of those in my previous Glenn Super 9 OTL amp as drivers. They are as good as the GEC B36 which is no surprise.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Keep it away from hunting season. That's a hell of a buck right there.





bcowen said:


> Dang it!  Back to the huddle, guys.



I didn't know all my relatives are here for Christmas. I feel right at home here. They are funnier than I am ! 

@HeatFan12 you and I can crawl back into the rabbit hole. This thread is safe with the new elves. Santa's in good hands.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I fixed the imbalance, but now neither actually changes volume when I turn the pot. 100% all the time. Sounds great... but ugh. I may well have melted something in the pot.
> Question: the middle pins are the wipers, yes? But they're just connected to ground in this setup?
> 
> Here's kind of my current setup:
> ...



Yes, the middle pins on the Alps are the wipers that are connected to the grids of the 6SN7 socket (pins 1 and 4). But the wipers are NOT connected to ground!  The original wiring used a shielded wire where the outer shield mesh was connected to ground on the circuit board end, but the mesh shield was NOT connected to the socket pins -- it was just cut off at that point and heat-shrinked. This shielded the wire from extraneous noise, but that outer shield was not connected on both ends.

Maybe this will help.  The red circle shows the "+ leads from the RCA input jacks. The yellow circle shows the wipers, and the green circle shows the "-" leads from the RCA jacks as well as the ground wires attached to those same pins and  connected to the bus bar ground (which should also have your HP jack ground tied to it). I used a small terminal strip (purple box) to tie the bus bar, HP jack ground, and ground leads from the pot all together in one place.






Here's just a suggestion at this point.  If you've soldered to that pot several times already, there's a good chance you've probably marginalized it to some degree.  Get a new 20k pot, as with that you won't HAVE to add shunt resistors (unless you want to), and you can probably dispense with the circuit board as well and just solder directly to the pins on the pot.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks guys,

Leaving for a few years then coming back is an awakening for sure.  Did you guys make all those contraptions or adapters?  That is monstrous for sure. Does anyone even use the 6SN7 tube anymore?  I still have like 300 of them.  Don't use them too much anymore since I sold all my Singlepower amps.


----------



## HeatFan12

UntilThen said:


> I didn't know all my relatives are here for Christmas. I feel right at home here. They are funnier than I am !
> 
> @HeatFan12 you and I can crawl back into the rabbit hole. This thread is safe with the new elves. Santa's in good hands.




Hahaha.  You are so right.  So much has changed  I feel like a rookie veteran.  Have no idea what's going on.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I didn't know all my relatives are here for Christmas. I feel right at home here. They are funnier than I am !
> 
> @HeatFan12 you and I can crawl back into the rabbit hole. This thread is safe with the new elves. Santa's in good hands.



ROFL!   All we're missing is Rudolph...where you at @JKDJedi ?


----------



## DeweyCH (Dec 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yes, the middle pins on the Alps are the wipers that are connected to the grids of the 6SN7 socket (pins 1 and 4). But the wipers are NOT connected to ground!  The original wiring used a shielded wire where the outer shield mesh was connected to ground on the circuit board end, but the mesh shield was NOT connected to the socket pins -- it was just cut off at that point and heat-shrinked. This shielded the wire from extraneous noise, but that outer shield was not connected on both ends.
> 
> Maybe this will help.  The red circle shows the "+ leads from the RCA input jacks. The yellow circle shows the wipers, and the green circle shows the "-" leads from the RCA jacks as well as the ground wires attached to those same pins and  connected to the bus bar ground (which should also have your HP jack ground tied to it). I used a small terminal strip (purple box) to tie the bus bar, HP jack ground, and ground leads from the pot all together in one place.
> 
> ...


OK, but here's where I'm confused... the schematic for the shunt mod has the 3rd and 2nd sets of pins connected to ground with pin 1 having both input (through the resistors) and output soldered to it. Which is what I did.






Edit to add: I haven't really soldered the pot itself multiple times, I've resoldered the components away from the pot but it's been where it is since I initially popped it in there.


----------



## DeweyCH

Wait... did I completely misunderstand the 'shunt' mod from the get-go? Is this working as expected?


----------



## UntilThen

I believe in multi tasking...I mean multi amp tube rolling. Here I am tube rolling all 3 amps simultaneously and busy jacking all my headphones at once. Time means money so I have to listen fast. Head-Fi in the fast lane. You hear me @HeatFan12  ?


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> I believe in multi tasking...I mean multi amp tube rolling. Here I am tube rolling all 3 amps simultaneously and busy jacking all my headphones at once. Time means money so I have to listen fast. Head-Fi in the fast lane. You hear me @HeatFan12  ?


The phrase "holy crapshackles Batman" leaps to mind


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> Leaving for a few years then coming back is an awakening for sure.  Did you guys make all those contraptions or adapters?  That is monstrous for sure. Does anyone even use the 6SN7 tube anymore?  I still have like 300 of them.  Don't use them too much anymore since I sold all my Singlepower amps.



The black box adapters you see were made by fellow HeadFi'er @Deyan .  There are some people (not mentioning any names) that can't leave well enough alone though and have to adapt the adapters.  

6SN7's are still very much in play, just that the really good ones have escalated to ridiculous price levels.  The single triode tubes were pretty cheap (and some still are), but even with them the good ones are starting to enter the land of silly prices.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> The phrase "holy crapshackles Batman" leaps to mind



The rack goes through frequent changes over the year. Batman becomes Robin and then Wonder Woman. I do not know what movie I'm producing anymore. UntilThen Production is getting out of hand.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 22, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> OK, but here's where I'm confused... the schematic for the shunt mod has the 3rd and 2nd sets of pins connected to ground with pin 1 having both input (through the resistors) and output soldered to it. Which is what I did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That diagram is correct for a shunted wiring scheme (middle sketch). The pic I showed is for an _un_-shunted wiring scheme (left sketch). So if you want to shunt, use the middle sketch. If you want to try it without shunting, then use the left sketch (which is what I tried to illustrate in the photo).  My apologies for confusing things with the "wiper not connected to ground" comment...I was thinking only of the standard wiring connections with no shunts employed.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I believe in multi tasking...I mean multi amp tube rolling. Here I am tube rolling all 3 amps simultaneously and busy jacking all my headphones at once. Time means money so I have to listen fast. Head-Fi in the fast lane. You hear me @HeatFan12  ?



If that's a beer refrigerator to the left of the rack, then I'm _beyond_ completely in awe.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That diagram is correct for a shunted wiring scheme (middle sketch). The pic I showed is for an _un_-shunted wiring scheme (left sketch). So if you want to shunt, use the middle sketch. If you want to try it without shunting, then use the left sketch (which is what I tried to illustrate in the photo).  My apologies for confusing things with the "wiper not connected to ground" comment...I was thinking only of the standard wiring connections with no shunts employed).


No problem. I think I'll take your advice and order a 20k pot. I'll keep trying to troubleshoot the shunt mod in the interim, but I appear to have (perhaps) bitten off more than I can chew for a first-time pot mod. Now the right channel is out completely.

(This is why I work on computers, not with my hands)


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> If that's a beer refrigerator to the left of the rack, then I'm _beyond_ completely in awe.


Says the poster who lives in one of the beer meccas of America.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> If that's a beer refrigerator to the left of the rack, then I'm _beyond_ completely in awe.



Yes it's my mini bar.

Now HeatFan, this is the latest incarnation of the rack. In the short few years of tube amp rolling, it dawn on me that the La Figaro 339 is pretty good sounding, especially considering the price against the competition. Now if you will buy it off me so I can move on to the next tube amp. Believe me, with the Figaro you will have joy to no ends with tube rolling.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Says the poster who lives in one of the beer meccas of America.



LOL!  Now all I need is a remote for the beer 'fridge.  Trying to teach the cat to bring me a beer was an exercise in futility.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Says the poster who lives in one of the beer meccas of America.



Does @bcowen own a whisky bar? Pray tell me where in America. I have to visit him immediately.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Does @bcowen own a whisky bar? Pray tell me where in America. I have to visit him immediately.


NC. Asheville is up there with Boston, Burlington VT, Austin, LA, SF and Portland, OR in terms of craft beer awesomeness.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Does @bcowen own a whisky bar? Pray tell me where in America. I have to visit him immediately.



Not yet, but I really like the idea!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Not yet, but I really like the idea!



Well you do have that 1.99 scotch special thing going on...


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> NC. Asheville is up there with Boston, Burlington VT, Austin, LA, SF and Portland, OR in terms of craft beer awesomeness.



Jesus, I hope my GPS will lead me to NC Ashville. I haven't got a clue where it is. I'm like Crocodile Dundee visiting America for the first time.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Not at all!  We're just huddled up in the corner over here trying to determine the most respectful way to let you, um, _veterans_ know that dual triode tubes are so...so...2008-ish.
> 
> Monster amps should also _look_ like monster amps, no?
> 
> RCA 6L5's with Bendix graphite plate 6080:


What's the verdict on the 6L5?? 😍


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> Hahaha.  You are so right.  So much has changed  I feel like a rookie veteran.  Have no idea what's going on.



I've only been into headphones for a couple years, as most of my audio life was with full size 2-channel systems.  With some job and residence changes I took about a 10 year hiatus (remission?) from the craziness. When I left, $2k power cords were all the rage. When I came back, power cords were passe' and $200 fuses were the talk of the town .  Seems the insanity remains somewhat consistent and only changes direction every now and then.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> What's the verdict on the 6L5?? 😍



Don't know yet.  Giving them about 10 hours of play time before I listen. From the GM readings I got they appear to be genuinely new (as in unused).  Have you received yours yet?


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> No problem. I think I'll take your advice and order a 20k pot. I'll keep trying to troubleshoot the shunt mod in the interim, but I appear to have (perhaps) bitten off more than I can chew for a first-time pot mod. Now the right channel is out completely.
> 
> (This is why I work on computers, not with my hands)


Try again, but listen.. my first pot install was a 100k alps straight to a pcb board that I made. I remember having similar issues with one channel being always on. I played with the solder and pins too much to get a “good solder” and damaged the pot. This is when I stopped playing around with those cheap $5 soldering irons. I reinstalled a new 100k to a little pcb with minimal contact to the soldering iron and it went well. Sounded fine too. Noise floor was a little on the high side though.

So then I installed a 50k shunted and I may have even toasted one of those trying to remove it from a pcb that was too big? This is when I stopped playing around with those cheap solder suckers, however the alps is hard to desolder and probably best leaving it in a board. It was a lesson learned. It doesn’t feel good tossing a $15 pot.

In your case, I think it’s likely that the pot was damaged, try it again with cleaner connections, less solder or maybe scrap the shunt and wire it regularly. I have a 10k wired up normal and it sounds very good.

Next, I’m going for one of these pots at 10k value.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I've only been into headphones for a couple years, as most of my audio life was with full size 2-channel systems.  With some job and residence changes I took about a 10 year hiatus (remission?) from the craziness. When I left, $2k power cords were all the rage. When I came back, power cords were passe' and $200 fuses were the talk of the town .  Seems the insanity remains somewhat consistent and only changes direction every now and then.



So you're no ordinary elf. I underestimated you. My apologies. We could talk 2 channel now but then I'll miss my sleep and I have to drive 4 hours to get back to Sydney tomorrow.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I've only been into headphones for a couple years, as most of my audio life was with full size 2-channel systems.  With some job and residence changes I took about a 10 year hiatus (remission?) from the craziness. When I left, $2k power cords were all the rage. When I came back, power cords were passe' and $200 fuses were the talk of the town .  Seems the insanity remains somewhat consistent and only changes direction every now and then.


My finger was hovering over that two channel system (Two of you here know about it) for an hour last night, I fell asleep. . 😂 I just couldn't do it... but .. today is a new day!! 😁


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> So you're no ordinary elf. I underestimated you. My apologies. We could talk 2 channel now but then I'll miss my sleep and I have to drive 4 hours to get back to Sydney tomorrow.



LOL!  There's always tomorrow.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Try again, but listen.. my first pot install was a 100k alps straight to a pcb board that I made. I remember having similar issues with one channel being always on. I played with the solder and pins too much to get a “good solder” and damaged the pot. This is when I stopped playing around with those cheap $5 soldering irons. I reinstalled a new 100k to a little pcb with minimal contact to the soldering iron and it went well. Sounded fine too. Noise floor was a little on the high side though.
> 
> So then I installed a 50k shunted and I may have even toasted one of those trying to remove it from a pcb that was too big? This is when I stopped playing around with those cheap solder suckers, however the alps is hard to desolder and probably best leaving it in a board. It was a lesson learned. It doesn’t feel good tossing a $15 pot.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that sounds about right, hah. I've ordered a 20k Alps that should arrive Thursday. Don't like that I (likely) toasted a nice pot, but them's the breaks sometimes. I'll be skipping the shunt mod for the time being once it arrives.

Any reason you want to put a stepped attenuator in place of the pot?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Don't know yet.  Giving them about 10 hours of play time before I listen. From the GM readings I got they appear to be genuinely new (as in unused).  Have you received yours yet?


No 😒 and will give them 2 hours before commenting about them if and when they get here .. who am I kidding...soon as I unpack them... look at my newbies guys!!! 😂


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  There's always tomorrow.


I told them about ya.... They wouldn't listen!...
😎😎 #TheDude


----------



## therremans (Dec 22, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, that sounds about right, hah. I've ordered a 20k Alps that should arrive Thursday. Don't like that I (likely) toasted a nice pot, but them's the breaks sometimes. I'll be skipping the shunt mod for the time being once it arrives.
> 
> Any reason you want to put a stepped attenuator in place of the pot?


I want to hear if offers any improvements over the alps. I’ve heard very good things about them and that they sound as good as the goldpoint it copies. I’ve read that the Noble pot from England is an upgrade from the Alps but it costs a good amount more. Many have said that they think this stepped attenuator bests the Noble. Most attenuators won’t fit in the DV.


----------



## DeweyCH

IT WORKS!


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> IT WORKS!


And the fix was... ??


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, so I was right - the connection from the pots to ground was broken, and the ground from the HP jack had come off the PCB (which wasn't an issue elsewhere because I had set up that hydra of short cables to connect to it and the bus bar ground). A touch of resoldering and voila, I actually did a thing. A thing that worked. A thing that sounds nice.

Thank you all so very much for your help in this, I can't believe how good your advice has been.


----------



## DeweyCH

Early findings with the Alps 50k pot + 47k resistor shunt mod (also pre-out removal, but hard to say what audible changes came from which):

- Balance is as spot-on as I could hope for
- It doesn't go from zero to twelve thousand decibels with the slightest nudge anymore
- Smoooooth turning
- Great sound
- Seriously zero noise floor





I ended up cancelling my order for the 20k Alps pot, but I did put in an order for that stepped attenuator @therremans linked. It'll arrive in February. Meantime this is fantastic to listen to and just straight-up enjoy.


----------



## DeweyCH

HUGE props to @therremans , @bcowen and @Paladin79 for the patient help and @JKDJedi for the moral support.


----------



## therremans

Great to hear that you figured it out and the pot wasn’t toast. This good energy will give you the confidence to redo it eventually. Yeah the shunt will give you complete silence even at max volume. I wasn’t really able to A/B mine so I can’t really comment on sonic qualities and sound differences. I would expect the balancing to be better on a shunted too however I never noticed mine being off at any volume without one. A slight channel imbalance would seem impossible to tell to me, unless you were using measuring gear. But maybe that’s just me. When I install the DACT type knock off, I’ll post my thoughts.


----------



## HeatFan12 (Dec 22, 2020)

Wow UT, beautiful!!!  Long ways from us rolling tubes here years ago. Great job!!

I will gracefully bow out knowing this thread is in great hands. Proud of having started it years ago. We have come a long way.  You guys are not even rolling tubes anymore. You are rolling spaceships, UFOs and F-16s. Very proud. The DV has really become a monster.

My third wife used to tell me “ you love those tubes all over the house more than you love me.” I would always reply “ no baby, I love you, but it’s just that these tubes get better with time. “.
We have been divorced eight years now. Oh well. Still have my tubes and we remain friends.

I’m still old skooool with my setups.
Cheers!!


----------



## jonathan c

I have two simple questions about the Darkvoice 336: Does the DV have any air slots? How, other than with a fan, does the DV not overheat?


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> I have two simple questions about the Darkvoice 336: Does the DV have any air slots? How, other than with a fan, does the DV not overheat?



There is ventilation on both sides of the unit that helps vent out the heat.


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> I have two simple questions about the Darkvoice 336: Does the DV have any air slots? How, other than with a fan, does the DV not overheat?


The bottom panel has vent slots on the rear end and the side has vent holes. I haven’t measured the internal ambient temp... yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Wow UT, beautiful!!!  Long ways from us rolling tubes here years ago. Great job!!
> 
> I will gracefully bow out knowing this thread is in great hands. Proud of having started it years ago. We have come a long way.  You guys are not even rolling tubes anymore. You are rolling spaceships, UFOs and F-16s. Very proud. The DV has really become a monster.
> 
> ...


Aww..don't bow out,, honored to have met ya.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> IT WORKS!



I woke up to this. The world would be a better place if we wake up every morning to this. Congrats


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan12 said:


> Wow UT, beautiful!!! Long ways from us rolling tubes here years ago. Great job!!
> 
> I will gracefully bow out knowing this thread is in great hands. Proud of having started it years ago. We have come a long way. You guys are not even rolling tubes anymore. You are rolling spaceships, UFOs and F-16s. Very proud. The DV has really become a monster.
> 
> ...



No HeatFan, it's you who's beautiful. When I came on here a long time ago was when I started on this hobby. I was happy talking to you then as I am happy talking to you now. In the intervening years you left and amidst my constant upgrading, I was thinking about the simple joy we had here with a humble DV336se and a HD650. It's the start of a great tune.

Sorry to hear that you've been divorced 8 years ago. Helping my golf buddy through that now. I let him win every game. I would hit a hook or slice where I could have hit it straight and get a hole in one but I won't. 

That's what this hobby is about isn't it? It's about making friends and remembering them even after many years. It's not about the gear we have. So here's to your setup and the fact you've remain friends with them and still love them.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> Aww..don't bow out,, honored to have met ya.



Yup what Rudolph says and he's a wise deer. Now where's my HE1000se, Rudolph ?!!!! I want it delivered before Christmas !


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> The bottom panel has vent slots on the rear end and the side has vent holes. I haven’t measured the internal ambient temp... yet.


Learned something new.  Vents on the bottom?  I am an obvious non-modder!  I suppose I will have to blow up my pot and just go for trying to upgrade it too.  @Dewhas given me hope now...


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> Learned something new.  Vents on the bottom?  I am an obvious non-modder!  I suppose I will have to blow up my pot and just go for trying to upgrade it too.  @Dewhas given me hope now...


Hey now, I didn't blow up my pot, I just thought I did! And if I can do it, anyone can.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  There's always tomorrow.



That's the most beautiful thing you've ever said. Not the LOL but the 'There's always tomorrow'.

When I needed to listen to just one more song at midnight, when I feel crushed after losing the auction to that priced tube, when my friend told me he has stage 4 cancer, I didn't know what to say.

Now I do. 'There's always tomorrow'. 

Ok I have to go to work for a few hours now. Then do the Hiit class. Then drive 4 beautiful hours back home without falling asleep. Then Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

All for you beautiful folks.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> That's the most beautiful thing you've ever said. Not the LOL but the 'There's always tomorrow'.
> 
> When I needed to listen to just one more song at midnight, when I feel crushed after losing the auction to that priced tube, when my friend told me he has stage 4 cancer, I didn't know what to say.
> 
> ...


Cheers my friend, safe travels. 🍺


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> I woke up to this. The world would be a better place if we wake up every morning to this. Congrats


Thank you kindly! Nothing quite like something you're trying to do with no real prior experience actually working out, thanks to some helpful and patient Internet strangers.


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> Hey now, I didn't blow up my pot, I just thought I did! And if I can do it, anyone can.



Well knowing me...I will be blowing it up...melting it down.  Lol.  I havent soldered in 15-20 years...and working on computer systems and such...much more forgiving than hot solder oozing everywhere.   Well, youre giving me hope so maybe I will take a crack at it over the break.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Well knowing me...I will be blowing it up...melting it down.  Lol.  I havent soldered in 15-20 years...and working on computer systems and such...much more forgiving than hot solder oozing everywhere.   Well, youre giving me hope so maybe I will take a crack at it over the break.


I'm still staring at mine ..


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> IT WORKS!


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> My third wife used to tell me “ you love those tubes all over the house more than you love me.” I would always reply “ no baby, I love you, but it’s just that these tubes get better with time. “.



ROFL!!  My reply would probably be like "Yes...and?"

Somehow I'm still married to the first one....


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm still staring at mine ..



You mean you didn't get the self-installing version?  Cheapskate.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That's the most beautiful thing you've ever said. Not the LOL but the 'There's always tomorrow'.
> 
> When I needed to listen to just one more song at midnight, when I feel crushed after losing the auction to that priced tube, when my friend told me he has stage 4 cancer, I didn't know what to say.
> 
> ...



Well please be safe. And I hope you have a wonderful holiday with your family and friends!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Well knowing me...I will be blowing it up...melting it down.  Lol.  I havent soldered in 15-20 years...and working on computer systems and such...much more forgiving than hot solder oozing everywhere.   Well, youre giving me hope so maybe I will take a crack at it over the break.



Look at it from the glass half-full aspect: the absolute worst case is you turn it into a smoldering blob of a Bose-like apparatus.  You can get a brand new one for $200, which is probably less than you spent on your last tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 22, 2020)

and..... as promised.... look what the cat dragged in... will give them a good rolling this week. initial RCA thoughts are they sound a lot like the RCA 6as7g.. (I have Tung Sols 7236 as output , maybe dropping a Winged C will calm things down) the RCAs don't match (micas and plates) but my ears can't tell, the Silvetone tubes do match. The gain isn't different from a 6J5/L63 tube so order away guys, these 6L5 tubes are really low but they're not anything near the premium GEC L63 as far as controlled sonics go. If you like a strong vacuum tube sound like the 7a4 tubes can give then these are a nice option... and this is just my initial thoughts as I'm listening and typing here.. might compare them to the Zenith 6J5 this evening
(Silvertone 6L5 pictured)


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Look at it from the glass half-full aspect: the absolute worst case is you turn it into a smoldering blob of a Bose-like apparatus.  You can get a brand new one for $200, which is probably less than you spent on your last tube.



*hearing the "tubes cost more than the am.....* covers my ears quickly while yelling LALALALALALALALALALALA.....🙉😱🤯

listen now.  i'm not a high roller like @JKDJedi.  did you see the size of those 6L5s he just got?  it's even got a huge guarantee sticker...that means its something special.   LOL.  my last tubes are were like 5 bucks a piece. cheapy metal tubes.  i think the happy meal toys cost more than my tubes.   well Tom might be getting that darkvoice corpse he's looking for early next year!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> *hearing the "tubes cost more than the am.....* covers my ears quickly while yelling LALALALALALALALALALALA.....🙉😱🤯
> 
> listen now.  i'm not a high roller like @JKDJedi.  did you see the size of those 6L5s he just got?  it's even got a huge guarantee sticker...that means its something special.   LOL.  my last tubes are were like 5 bucks a piece. cheapy metal tubes.  i think the happy meal toys cost more than my tubes.   well Tom might be getting that darkvoice corpse he's looking for early next year!



Mine are prettier. *And* matched.  I only bring that up as a 'Nyah Nyah Nyah' to Jedi, otherwise I wouldn't have said anything


----------



## Slade01

My big (under 10 dollar bargain bin) haul....lol


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> My big (under 10 dollar bargain bin) haul....lol



How do they sound?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> How do they sound?


I'm firing them up tomorrow morning.  I also have to try to see if these are actually Raytheon made or just another rebrand. This is where the real fun begins.  It's like tube version of the Maury Povich show.  Who is the father...?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Mine are prettier. *And* matched.  I only bring that up as a 'Nyah Nyah Nyah' to Jedi, otherwise I wouldn't have said anything



Those look in very pristine condition!  Very nice!


----------



## DeweyCH

So what's y'all's favorite tubes for a Beyer T1.2?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Mine are prettier. *And* matched.  I only bring that up as a 'Nyah Nyah Nyah' to Jedi, otherwise I wouldn't have said anything


Estupids...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> *hearing the "tubes cost more than the am.....* covers my ears quickly while yelling LALALALALALALALALALALA.....🙉😱🤯
> 
> listen now.  i'm not a high roller like @JKDJedi.  did you see the size of those 6L5s he just got?  it's even got a huge guarantee sticker...that means its something special.   LOL.  my last tubes are were like 5 bucks a piece. cheapy metal tubes.  i think the happy meal toys cost more than my tubes.   well Tom might be getting that darkvoice corpse he's looking for early next year!


LOL.. It's the camera angle, they're same size as the 6J5 tubes, and yeah that giant guarantee sticker, I nearly pulled it off but, kinda looks nostalgic so gonna leave them as is..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> LOL.. It's the camera angle, they're same size as the 6J5 tubes, and yeah that giant guarantee sticker, I nearly pulled it off but, kinda looks nostalgic so gonna leave them as is..



The label is cool.  Gives it character for sure.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 22, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> The label is cool.  Gives it character for sure.


Super Silvertone 6L5g are the Beez Kneez.. Cats MEow... Bow wow wow.. Yippe yo yippe yay....good.. (more detailed than my RCA 6L5g, not as bloated or as thick as them, still rolling TS7236 to keep with the comparisons) I am wearing my widest headphones (Fidelio X2).. so that could be part of it, and having said that...wow these are spacious sounding tubes.. very nice. I'm gonna drop the Zenith behind them after a few tracks..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Super Silvertone 6L5g are the Beez Kneez.. Cats MEow... Bow wow wow.. Yippe yo yippe yay....good.. I'm a happy camper (more detailed than my RCA 6L5g, not as bloated or as thick as them, still rolling TS7236 to keep with the comparisons) I am wearing my widest headphones (Fidelio X2).. so that could be part of it, and having said that...wow these are spacious sounding tubes.. very nice. I'm gonna drop the Zenith behind them after a few tracks..



I hear alot of good things about the zenith variants so let us know how that goes.

I felt the same when I got my 6c5 rca pairs/raytheon pairs. The raytheon 6c5s were a few steps better than its rca counterpart in terms of detail/clarity, but without sacrifice to a solid/controlled bass.  Nothing against RCA, its still nice to listen to, but it doesn't stand out in any particular area either in my opinion.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ordered a 6sn7-6f8g adapter and a couple 6f8g tubes - old rca to see if it likes playing with my rca power tube and a Raytheon one. What’s the improvement brought by a one-to-two tube adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 23, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I hear alot of good things about the zenith variants so let us know how that goes.
> 
> I felt the same when I got my 6c5 rca pairs/raytheon pairs. The raytheon 6c5s were a few steps better than its rca counterpart in terms of detail/clarity, but without sacrifice to a solid/controlled bass.  Nothing against RCA, its still nice to listen to, but it doesn't stand out in any particular area either in my opinion.


https://tidal.com/browse/track/85652759



I wasn't expecting much from these 6L5, so got a little excited there.. I'm rolling the Zenith 6j5..and, I'm thinking in a blind test.. I can't tell which one is which. And that's a good thing.  gonna roll the Silver Surfers one more time before retiring this evening.

Same tone with both only the Silver extends a touch further, (gain difference?) and some instruments jump out (differentiate/separation/spaced out) a bit more. I don't know.. I'm gonna have to roll these two again over coffee tomorrow morning.  #firstworldproblems

EDIT: My ears seem to work better with two cups of black coffee, and I rolled these two tubes with the beyerdynamics (vs the Fidelio X2 from last night)..  I can't tell a difference between the two, both probably Sylvania made tubes.  I have a suspicion the RCA will sound great/better with the Beyers. Which goes to show/prove that synergy is everything, even with headphones. I will add, the Silvertone with the X2, are special.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Ordered a 6sn7-6f8g adapter and a couple 6f8g tubes - old rca to see if it likes playing with my rca power tube and a Raytheon one. What’s the improvement brought by a one-to-two tube adapter?


Are you asking about the duel 6j5 adapters your seeing here lately??


----------



## therremans

So, I bought a 92mmx14mm fan to mount on the bottom rear vents.. it will blow downwards, which will draw air in from the circular side vents to create some kind of airflow. I think it's worth it for the caps longevity..


----------



## bcowen (Dec 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> So, I bought a 92mmx14mm fan to mount on the bottom rear vents.. it will blow downwards, which will draw air in from the circular side vents to create some kind of airflow. I think it's worth it for the caps longevity..


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Are you asking about the duel 6j5 adapters your seeing here lately??


Yes


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> So, I bought a 92mmx14mm fan to mount on the bottom rear vents.. it will blow downwards, which will draw air in from the circular side vents to create some kind of airflow. I think it's worth it for the caps longevity..


Maybe you could control the air flow more by helping the side vents by chaining your fans (or buying them prewired) in a single row and mount them on both sides of the DV, much like the concept of this:



Or better yet find a way to incorporate this:



LOL.  At least this is what we used to do PCs back in the day before the nifty-ness of liquid cooling.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> How do they sound?



Rolling with Raytheon 6J5 Metal Cans 1957-13th week (March) with a Sylvania GB-6080 power tube.

My only comparison which I have been listening to for the past month is the Philco 6J5 Metal Cans.  The biggest take away of these Raytheons is that they are more a mid-forward tube (as compared to the Philco's 6J5 Metal*possible Sylvania)  The mids/vocals shine a bit more here - definitely more emphasized with these tubes.  Nice overall dynamics and the sustain/decay of notes are very organic sounding -- meaning that hi-hat cymbals, guitar plucking is detailed and natural.  The crashing and twanging sounds are where they should be!  The upper registers are non-fatiguing and there is good separation and details.  One simple test I always put it though is listening to Foo Fighters - Everlong - which has alot going on across the gamut.  When turned up really loud, the guitar distortion work can sound sound grating really fast.  But in this case, it remains cohesive and clear to really high volume levels and never gets fatiguing, yet can also pick out the background details concurrently (nice layering) - the subtle drum and cymbal work that still cuts through the front and center guitar work.  Same with listening to Joe Bonnamassa (Blues Deluxe) - Pack It Up song.  Guitar and drum work is a pleasure to hear with these tubes as it shines and has great detail.   Bass is hefty/punchy but controlled.  It does not lack in this area whatsoever.  Another enjoyable pair of tubes.

This morning's test list:
Foo Fighters - Everlong
Joe Bonnamassa - Pack It Up
Jimi Hendrix - All Along the Watch Tower
Tom Petty - Free Falling
Audioslave - Jewel of the Summertime
Lupe Fiasco - Hip-Hop Saved My Life
Powerman 5000 - Danger is Go
Nine Inch Nails - Sanctified
Pink Floyd - Wish you were here
Ozomatli - Eva
Everything but the Girl - Missing
10000 Maniacs (MTV Unplugged) - These are days
Drowning Pool - Bodies
Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Snow
Wyclef Jean- Kiss the sky (accoustic)
Rush - La Villa Strangiato
Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No 5
Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata (Classical Guitar)

Is this a characteristic of Raytheon's house sound?  If so, it is quickly becoming a favorite.  I'm sure other tubes (maybe the shouldered glass types might be better and given a better sense of soundstage or details, etc), but the kicker....My total tube cost is around 10 dollars for the pair and is a very great bang for your buck that does so much right.   Easily recommended if you come across them.


----------



## wideload

therremans said:


> So, I bought a 92mmx14mm fan to mount on the bottom rear vents.. it will blow downwards, which will draw air in from the circular side vents to create some kind of airflow. I think it's worth it for the caps longevity..


I don’t think this is the proper forum to advertise your OnlyFans site! 😀


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Yes





Slade01 said:


> Rolling with Raytheon 6J5 Metal Cans 1957-13th week (March) with a Sylvania GB-6080 power tube.
> 
> My only comparison which I have been listening to for the past month is the Philco 6J5 Metal Cans.  The biggest take away of these Raytheons is that they are more a mid-forward tube (as compared to the Philco's 6J5 Metal*possible Sylvania)  The mids/vocals shine a bit more here - definitely more emphasized with these tubes.  Nice overall dynamics and the sustain/decay of notes are very organic sounding -- meaning that hi-hat cymbals, guitar plucking is detailed and natural.  The crashing and twanging sounds are where they should be!  The upper registers are non-fatiguing and there is good separation and details.  One simple test I always put it though is listening to Foo Fighters - Everlong - which has alot going on across the gamut.  When turned up really loud, the guitar distortion work can sound sound grating really fast.  But in this case, it remains cohesive and clear to really high volume levels and never gets fatiguing, yet can also pick out the background details concurrently (nice layering) - the subtle drum and cymbal work that still cuts through the front and center guitar work.  Same with listening to Joe Bonnamassa (Blues Deluxe) - Pack It Up song.  Guitar and drum work is a pleasure to hear with these tubes as it shines and has great detail.   Bass is hefty/punchy but controlled.  It does not lack in this area whatsoever.  Another enjoyable pair of tubes.
> 
> ...


Mid forward tube sounds about right for the Raytheons. Seems like you really like these I'll have to keep an eye out for a pair. Nice write up, thanks.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Yes


Most of us here (thanks too @bcowen ) have jumped on the 6J5 bandwagon for the *HUGE* sound that comes out of these little known cost efficient tubes. For a tenth of the price of the Holy Grail triple digit 6SN7 tubes... you get the same, (some would argue surpassed) sonics. Just this week @Slade01 and I received tubes under or at $10 that we both are astounded on the output of these tubes. With the one 6J5 adapter that we grabbed from @Deyan we're able to roll 6J5, 6C5, L63, and 6L5 tubes. @therremans has an impressive collection of these tubes. I keep saying I'm getting rid of my 6sn7 tubes..I'm very close to that..


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> So, I bought a 92mmx14mm fan to mount on the bottom rear vents.. it will blow downwards, which will draw air in from the circular side vents to create some kind of airflow. I think it's worth it for the caps longevity..


That's gonna look so sick...with LED lighting please!!!


----------



## therremans (Dec 23, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> That's gonna look so sick...with LED lighting please!!!


haha, no LEDs but it is a high quality fan by Noctua. The thinnest one I could find - link, I have 23mm of clearance on the bottom below the amp with my silicone feet.. so it can't use the standard 25mm depth fan. I considered side fans at first but then changed my mind and liked the simple idea of one single fan pulling air down and out. I didn't want to have to drill out more vent holes for 40mm side fans.. and the amp would have looked pretty damn strange.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Most of us here (thanks too @bcowen ) have jumped on the 6J5 bandwagon for the *HUGE* sound that comes out of these little known cost efficient tubes. For a tenth of the price of the Holy Grail triple digit 6SN7 tubes... you get the same, (some would argue surpassed) sonics. Just this week @Slade01 and I received tubes under or at $10 that we both are astounded on the output of these tubes. With the one 6J5 adapter that we grabbed from @Deyan we're able to roll 6J5, 6C5, L63, and 6L5 tubes. @therremans has an impressive collection of these tubes. I keep saying I'm getting rid of my 6sn7 tubes..I'm very close to that..


Nice, that's exciting. Does @Deyan still sell the adapters?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 23, 2020)

YEs.. @Deyan  should be chiming in at any moment...right @Deyan ? Or send him a PM


----------



## DeweyCH

Also what in the name of all that's holy is this @Slade01 ?


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Also what in the name of all that's holy is this @Slade01 ?


Those in the front are the GEC L63.


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 23, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Also what in the name of all that's holy is this @Slade01 ?



As @JKDJedi mentioned - the front tubes are GEC L63.  In the rear, i'm using a dual A2293 (CV4079) to a 6AS7 adapter.  I had two GEC CV4079 in the rear.

I did this to test out whether or not we could have an alternative and more inexpensive path to running GEC tubes.  GEC L63s are a more affordable option for GEC drivers as well as getting 2x GEC CV4079 at a fraction of the price of a GEC 6AS7G.  

As it turns out, running either adapters on its own is fine.  But running both adapters at the same time causes significant hum/feedback.****Disclaimer, that is only the first try doing this, and hopefully other members will test this as well to see what is causing this. I can only initially report that this is what happened from the first run/try.  Also had an issue with the adapter, that may or may not have influence on this - I dont have enough information and working with others to compare notes and figure it out!******


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> As @JKDJedi mentioned - the front tubes are GEC L63.  In the rear, i'm using a dual A2293 (CV4079) to a 6AS7 adapter.  I had two GEC CV4079 in the rear.
> 
> I did this to test out whether or not we could have an alternative and more inexpensive path to running GEC tubes.  GEC L63s are a more affordable option for GEC drivers as well as getting 2x GEC CV4079 at a fraction of the price of a GEC 6AS7G.
> 
> As it turns out, running either adapters on its own is fine.  But running both adapters at the same time causes significant hum/feedback.


I meant to ask about those CV4079 tubes, what's the sound like out of those? and what's your go to driver when rolling them? a few of us (here) have had problems with that set up so have no idea what that sound is like from these tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> As @JKDJedi mentioned - the front tubes are GEC L63.  In the rear, i'm using a dual A2293 (CV4079) to a 6AS7 adapter.  I had two GEC CV4079 in the rear.
> 
> I did this to test out whether or not we could have an alternative and more inexpensive path to running GEC tubes.  GEC L63s are a more affordable option for GEC drivers as well as getting 2x GEC CV4079 at a fraction of the price of a GEC 6AS7G.
> 
> As it turns out, running either adapters on its own is fine.  But running both adapters at the same time causes significant hum/feedback.


Gotcha, thank you. So you have two adapters, one that is dual-6J5-to-6SN7 and one that's dual-A2293-to-6AS7? Which one do you think you'll keep running more, since the hum issue with both is a thing?


----------



## JKDJedi

Rolled these guys again this morning (Silvertone,RCA,Zentih) and have updated my last post about them, headphones are just as important in the synergy equation folks..


----------



## therremans (Dec 23, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Gotcha, thank you. So you have two adapters, one that is dual-6J5-to-6SN7 and one that's dual-A2293-to-6AS7? Which one do you think you'll keep running more, since the hum issue with both is a thing?


It isn't that they aren't compatible, it might be an adapter issue so keep an open mind if you ever wanted to try it out one day. We don't want to make conclusions with one test sample, you know?



Slade01 said:


> As @JKDJedi mentioned - the front tubes are GEC L63.  In the rear, i'm using a dual A2293 (CV4079) to a 6AS7 adapter.  I had two GEC CV4079 in the rear.
> 
> I did this to test out whether or not we could have an alternative and more inexpensive path to running GEC tubes.  GEC L63s are a more affordable option for GEC drivers as well as getting 2x GEC CV4079 at a fraction of the price of a GEC 6AS7G.
> 
> As it turns out, running either adapters on its own is fine.  But running both adapters at the same time causes significant hum/feedback.


I am waiting on my adapter to get re-wired and I will try this out again one day. I will let you know when I find the cause and how to fix it.


----------



## UntilThen

This sudden interest in fans for the tube amp reminds me that my Oblivion has a big, silent fan built in and mounted at the bottom. It is so quiet I don't notice it but the amp is sure kept very cool. Btw I still haven't set of on the journey home for Christmas. Will be doing so this morning.


----------



## Deyan

JKDJedi said:


> YEs.. @Deyan  should be chiming in at any moment...right @Deyan ? Or send him a PM



Sorry I'm a bit late. Some members where wondering if i even sleep. So.....there's proof that I do.


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 23, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I meant to ask about those CV4079 tubes, what's the sound like out of those? and what's your go to driver when rolling them? a few of us (here) have had problems with that set up so have no idea what that sound is like from these tubes.





DeweyCH said:


> Gotcha, thank you. So you have two adapters, one that is dual-6J5-to-6SN7 and one that's dual-A2293-to-6AS7? Which one do you think you'll keep running more, since the hum issue with both is a thing?



Between the two, there is more versatility obviously with the dual 6j5 adapter.   You can run at least two different variants with 6J5 and 6C5 at the minimum that i am aware of.  And obviously, with each type, there are more possibility of attaining and parsing out different sounds.  With the dual A2293, you're pretty much just limited to that.  There are not many if at all of this type.  You're stuck with the one.  If you have alot of regular 6SN7 or single adapter type (though so far i've only tried a 7N7 to 6SN7) with the dual A2293, then you would have a power tube that probably begins to start to approach the sound of the holy grail GEC curved brown base.  But for a fraction of the price, you can get the GEC sound.

*About the hum issue - we will be revisiting this again, and its unfair to write it off at this point - its only the first try.  With this, there was an issue with the adapter, so both myself and some others will probably try again and compare notes, because in theory, everything is within spec and should work.  So stay tuned.

@JKDJedi to answer your question - I have not had much time at all with the CV4079.  There was an issue with the adapter, and of which since Deyan has fixed and will be sending out.  I only had about 30 mins of listening time on them.  Sound is like a very refined type of sound.  Nice tone and clarity (brings out details), but leaner on the bass.    I can only say with definite assertion that its on par with the GEC 6080 that I have.  Too early for me to say how much better the CV4079 is.  Generally, I've heard people rate it between the GEC6080 and the GEC 6AS7G, but where it falls in the middle is probably anyones guess depending on their rig.  Hopefully once I get the adapter, I can spend more time, but havent really gone down the path of finding good pairings.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> That's gonna look so sick...with LED lighting please!!!



Sure. That's my DV336se - modified of course. Will drive ANY headphones. That's kept under the desk though.


On the desk I like a clean desk policy. Notice the absence of tubes? Btw that's my best headphone - Axis Voicebox S.


Where are you @HeatFan12 ? Don't take another 8 years hiatus.


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 23, 2020)

therremans said:


> It isn't that they aren't compatible, it might be an adapter issue so keep an open mind if you ever wanted to try it out one day. We don't want to make conclusions with one test sample, you know?



@DeweyCH - yes @therremans is right.  my attempt is just in the beginning.  he and many others here are super technically savvy and in time can probably figure it out.  truth be told, we cannot draw conclusions from just one try.  i also had an issue with the adapter, and hopefully will get a fixed version in time, and can reattempt to try this again, as well, as compare with other users who plan on trying this.  so stay tuned....

otherwise, tube rolling is all about synergy.  good to have options in both power and driver....you never know what combo will just make that music really shine.  it gives your system more versatility.



> I am waiting on my adapter to get re-wired and I will try this out again one day. I will let you know when I find the cause and how to fix it.



And sounds good --  it would be really cool to be able to run it all concurrently.  My DV is super stock so maybe it doesnt have the chops as it is.  I just have a feeling some type of mod is going to fix this issue somehow.  I guess time will tell.  But thank you so much for your contributions.  I'm gonna go back to those pot pictures you had up so that I don't completely melt something in the DV when I attempt surgery over the break.  LOL.


----------



## Deyan

therremans said:


> It isn't that they aren't compatible, it might be an adapter issue so keep an open mind if you ever wanted to try it out one day. We don't want to make conclusions with one test sample, you know?
> 
> 
> I am waiting on my adapter to get re-wired and I will try this out again one day. I will let you know when I find the cause and how to fix it.



The whole mystery with tha A2293's has been solved. 
It turns out that only newer tubes have the pins wired like shown in the datasheet ( and have duplicate and even triplicates for the cathode and anode). 
The older tubes do not have the duplicate pins. That's what was causing the problem.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Sure. That's my DV336se - modified of course. Will drive ANY headphones. That's kept under the desk though.
> 
> 
> On the desk I like a clean desk policy. Notice the absence of tubes? Btw that's my best headphone - Axis Voicebox S.
> ...


Tha'ts a awesome setup there, wow.. that PC


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> Tha'ts a awesome setup there, wow.. that PC



Tq tq. I got it custom made to play MS Flight Simulator 2020 but I keep crashing those planes ! I think I need proper yoke or controllers and a flight stewardess.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Tq tq. I got it custom made to play MS Flight Simulator 2020 but I keep crashing those planes ! I think I need proper yoke or controllers and a flight stewardess.



Well, it's pretty obvious from the outside looking in. No stewardess, no 'beverage' service. No wonder you keep crashing.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It isn't that they aren't compatible, it might be an adapter issue so keep an open mind if you ever wanted to try it out one day. We don't want to make conclusions with one test sample, you know?
> 
> 
> I am waiting on my adapter to get re-wired and I will try this out again one day. I will let you know when I find the cause and how to fix it.



I have a pair of CV4079's incoming from Langrex. Should be here about any day now (USPS willing). I'll report back once they arrive.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, it's pretty obvious from the outside looking in. No stewardess, no 'beverage' service. No wonder you keep crashing.



Fixed !!! Now no more crashes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ok so I ordered a bunch of tubes and a couple of adapters. I blame all of you.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Fixed !!! Now no more crashes.



   

I don't know what airline that is, but I'm booking my next ticket on it even if I'm not going anywhere they fly.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Ok so I ordered a bunch of tubes and a couple of adapters. I blame all of you.



The accepted practice is to blame @JKDJedi .  Even if he's not guilty now, there's a high probability he will be at some point in the future. The rest of us are always innocent and have the test results to prove it.


----------



## DeweyCH

So here's what I'll be working with:

I already had an RCA JAN 6AS7G, it's the only tube compatible with that back socket I have (other than the stock POS).
I also had a made in Russia Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (which after perusing this thread further is kind of a POS itself), the stock POS tube, and a Shuguang Treasure.
I ordered a 6SN7 --> Dual 6J5 adapter from @Deyan

And then the following eBay spree:
- Black-plate RCA 6SN7GTB (to see how it plays with the RCA already in my system)
- A vintage Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (American made)
- A pair of black RCA 6J5s
- A mismatched couple of Silvertone 6J5s - one G, one GTG
- GSN7-->GF8G adapter
- NOS RCB 6F8G
- NOS Raytheon 6F8G

That's not including the solid aluminum knob and stepped attenuator I was convinced to order (and look forward to getting my hands on).

I think at this point I'm pretty solid on things to try out on the 6SN7 socket. If I could only find some decent options for the 6AS7 to roll with the RCA, but everything I've read here points me away from the 5998As and I'm not really sure if $110 is a good price for a NOS Mullard 6080 with Philips branding. Anyone up for selling me a nice 6AS7/6080/5998 they consider a good option?

@bcowen I'ma need to see those test results.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> @bcowen I'ma need to see those test results.



OK, give me a bit. There's many thousands of pages to compile.


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> I'm not really sure if $110 is a good price for a NOS Mullard 6080 with Philips branding. Anyone up for selling me a nice 6AS7/6080/5998 they consider a good option?



If you're gonna spend this much - maybe want to consider the ones from Langrex has a pair for about 115:   6080 CV2984 MULLARD PAIR ENGLAND NOS BOXED VALVE/TUBE - Langrex


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> If you're gonna spend this much - maybe want to consider the ones from Langrex has a pair for about 115:   6080 CV2984 MULLARD PAIR ENGLAND NOS BOXED VALVE/TUBE - Langrex


I think I'm gonna go for broke and buy the Tung Sol 5998 for sale here


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I think I'm gonna go for broke and buy the Tung Sol 5998 for sale here


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The accepted practice is to blame @JKDJedi .  Even if he's not guilty now, there's a high probability he will be at some point in the future. The rest of us are always innocent and have the test results to prove it.


I just have a handful of tubes... lol, .. Now I know who won them RCA 6J5... 😒 and it was for a quad not a pair.  he's gonna be in for a nice surprise. oh ,  where was I... no not me, I'm innocent... honest.. 😁


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Ok so I ordered a bunch of tubes and a couple of adapters. I blame all of you.



Just got up and I thought I read you ordered a bunch of beers.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I don't know what airline that is, but I'm booking my next ticket on it even if I'm not going anywhere they fly.



When I sell all my head-fi gear, I'll get this airline off the ground and you can then 'Come fly with me'.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Just got up and I thought I read you ordered a bunch of beers.


Don't gotta order when you never run out


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> I think I'm gonna go for broke and buy the Tung Sol 5998 for sale here



Tung Sol 5998 did you say? Well I have a mint pair here and I'm listening with my HD800 which is in mint condition. Even the box is new. Bought it in 2017 brand new and I intend to keep it till 2027 then I'll sell it on eBay for 10 times the price. I'm listening to the HD800 now because my HEKse is coming like anytime now and I want to compare the 2 headphones. 

Listening to Fourplay now - Elixir album. Didn't know HD800 can still sound so good. I've been buried with my LCD-3f and LCD-X all these time.

Oh btw there is a history to my 5998 tubes. I bought it off eBay from a Vietnamese seller back in 2016 for US$238 for the pair. It was brand new then, came in a tupperware box stuff with bubble wraps. Seller told me the tubes were left behind in an army depot in the fall of Saigon during the sad war. Incredibly this pair is so new and quiet, I didn't use it for a while until I bought Feliks Elise then I start using it. At that time I still have the DV336se and I did use it on that amp too and it is just a very lovely unique 5998 tone. If you have heard one, you will know what I mean.


----------



## UntilThen

I manage to dig up from my archive a picture of my DV336se with Elise. DV336se was using my other lone 5998 with Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears. Elise had the Tung Sol 7236 power tubes with Telefunken EL11 as drivers. DAC was my 1st dac, a present from my wife - NAD D1050. It's still with me ! Oh she also bought me my 1st turntable - Denon DP300f. Now it's packed and stored in the garage because I'm using my Rega RP8.  

Even after I have move on to other tube amps, I still remember the good times when I first started with DV336se, followed by Elise. I had a ball of a time then and was tube rolling with glee. Almost every other day, some tubes arrived in the post and my wife would say, 'Tubes again?'.


----------



## UntilThen

My collection of 5998. Still have them.


----------



## UntilThen

I love these 4 power tubes the most. Sadly I have sold off all my GEC 6as7g but the buyer says I can buy it back  maybe in early 2021 .. I might buy it back.

So these 4 fav power tubes according to UT are:-

Not in order of preference.

Tung Sol 5998, GEC 6as7g, Bendix 6080wb and GEC 6080


----------



## UntilThen

Then DV336se left and that's the start of the arrival of the monster amps. I had 4 headphones then. Eikon, Atticus, HD800 and LCD-2f.

My amps were Glenn OTL amp, Ragnarok and Canon solid state amp. That Canon is the best.

All right folks. Time for me to shower and start my Christmas day. Have a good day all !


----------



## UntilThen

Oh one more before I crave up the turkey...

In all my photos of my tube amps, somehow this turns out to be the best. The humble DV336se turn out to be the best shot. That says something.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I think I'm gonna go for broke and buy the Tung Sol 5998 for sale here



I think I'm probably pretty safe to state that it would be extremely difficult to *not* like a TS 5998.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> ...Canon solid state amp. That Canon is the best.



Heresy!  Take that back right now!  You are obviously sleep-deprived and/or over-imbibed.  "Solid state" and "best" are not permissible in the same sentence, and preferably not even on the same internet.  

Seriously, sounds like you made it home safely thankfully -- hope you have a wonderful Christmas!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Hey all, Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to all of you!!

And again thanks for the continued reading, learning, and especially laughter!!


----------



## bcowen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Hey all, Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to all of you!!
> 
> And again thanks for the continued reading, learning, and especially laughter!!



And to you as well.  Hope you have a great holiday!


----------



## therremans

*1uf bypass caps:*
_Panasonic 400VDC 1.0uF 5% Film_




*1k, 1M, 30k all replaced:*
_Dale Vishay1k, 1M, 1W, .1%
Dale Vishay 30.1k, 1.5W, .1%_
*220uf cathode bypass caps:*
_Nichicon 25volts 220uF MUSE


_

*Notes:*
I was thinking that my stock resistors were likely holding back the amp’s potential. I also wanted to swap out my 100uf cathode bypass caps for the 220uf as I was told it’s the better choice (fitz mod). And then those 1uf power bypass caps, I read can improve deep bass extension.

There was a drastic improvement in the entire sound! Larger soundstage, much more defined separation, greatly increased bass extension, more impact, rumble and bass slam than ever before, much more powerful sound, more dynamic, notes are more resolving, much less distortion. High end is crisp and clean but never piercing. Some songs used to create a sonic mess (distortion and mud), but it now remains clear, defined and dynamic in those moments. Wow. I actually have much more of that 3D holographic thing people talk about.





_Tung-Sol 5998 / Ken-Rad VT-231_

This is the best my DV has ever sounded and I am looking forward to rolling some tubes later.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Don't gotta order when you never run out



Dang we have a bunch of connoisseur drinkers here. How do you you even mod your DV336se and get it working? Must be a thirsty DV336se.

Back when I was tube rolling my DV336se, I was more serious with my drinks. I go hardcore.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Just got up and I thought I read you ordered a bunch of beers.


well... on my first glass of teguila at the moment .. celebration.....begin... salud!


----------



## UntilThen

therremans said:


> _Tung-Sol 5998 / Ken-Rad VT-231_
> 
> This is the best my DV has ever sounded and I am looking forward to rolling some tubes later.



Yes I agree but wait till you swap out the Ken Rad for Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates or Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and the best will be bested.  

I never try Mullard ECC33 on the DV336se but I think it will work. Had all these drivers for GOTL and Studio Six but I sold those amps and tubes. I actually sold off a part of me.... sad.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> well... on my first glass of teguila at the moment .. celebration.....begin... salud!



What is your address? I'm coming over right now with @bcowen and the rest of the crew here. He's the pilot and I am in charge of the stewardess.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> *1uf bypass caps:*
> _Panasonic 400VDC 1.0uF 5% Film_
> 
> 
> ...



Nice job.  Since the DV uses resistors to load the input tube, maybe try some carbon film resistors down the road (Kiwame, Riken Ohm), I've found these to have a positive effect in the past.


----------



## UntilThen

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Hey all, Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to all of you!!
> 
> And again thanks for the continued reading, learning, and especially laughter!!



It's no laughing matter here. It's all about reading and learning but welcome and Merry Christmas to you.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice job.  Since the DV uses resistors to load the input tube, maybe try some carbon film resistors down the road (Kiwame, Riken Ohm), I've found these to have a positive effect in the past.



And LordGwyn showed up on Christmas day ! 

Btw just found out what Lord Gwyn meant:-

Gwyn is absolutely fast and powerful beast.
His weakness, despite appearances, is *fire*. But he is resistant to lightning damages. Besides, this is one of the bosses, which blows can be parried. 

Ok now that I know your weakness, when are you modding my Figaro?


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Yes I agree but wait till you swap out the Ken Rad for Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates or Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and the best will be bested.
> 
> I never try Mullard ECC33 on the DV336se but I think it will work. Had all these drivers for GOTL and Studio Six but I sold those amps and tubes. I actually sold off a part of me.... sad.


the Holy Mother's of all Mother's.. the Mullard... can the Darkvoice handle that one?? 🤔


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> What is your address? I'm coming over right now with @bcowen and the rest of the crew here. He's the pilot and I am in charge of the stewardess.


you guys are most welcome, Mecca California, we have an airport nearby, in Thermal. open arms.. Merry Christmas. ❤


----------



## bcowen (Dec 24, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> What is your address? I'm coming over right now with @bcowen and the rest of the crew here. He's the pilot and I am in charge of the stewardess.



Wait...I already claimed dibs on the stewardesses (or is that stewardessii?).  No fair claiming seniority rights here.

Not sure what @JKDJedi is cooking....perhaps Spam in a shell (?) but I was mostly looking forward to the flight anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> the Holy Mother's of all Mother's.. the Mullard... can the Darkvoice handle that one?? 🤔



When I get my DV336se again  and that will only happen when Drop drops it again. I have requested it !.... I will then try Mullard ECC33 in that amp.

ECC33 works in my previous GOTL and Studio Six which were design for 6SN7 driver input.... so it could possibly work for DV336se but that is like putting a Rolls Royce engine in Ford Cortina.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Wait...I already claimed dibs on the stewardesses (or is that stewardessii?).  No fair claiming seniority rights here.
> 
> Not sure what @JKDJedi is cooking....perhaps Spam in a shell (?) but I was mostly looking forward to the flight anyway.



One of us has to fly. We can't both be teaching the stewardessii unless we go autopilot? 

Ok got to dash now wife wants me to be the driver !


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> And LordGwyn showed up on Christmas day !
> 
> Btw just found out what Lord Gwyn meant:-
> 
> ...



Hehehe so I've been found out...

How about an EL34 SET instead?  Your Auris Nirvana inspired me to do more work on my design, 2021 will be the year I sell an amplifier.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> When I get my DV336se again  and that will only happen when Drop drops it again. I have requested it !.... I will then try Mullard ECC33 in that amp.
> 
> ECC33 works in my previous GOTL and Studio Six which were design for 6SN7 driver input.... so it could possibly work for DV336se but that is like putting a Rolls Royce engine in Ford Cortina.


Tha ks for taking one for the team!! 😁


----------



## therremans

*Vent fan install*
_Noctua NF-A9x14, 92x14 slim
12V Voltage Step-Up USB adapter









_
The fan isn’t loud but is audible. Very slim design. I don’t have anything setup to read temps but the top plate isn’t even warm after an hour so it’s probably effective. I did blow a puff of smoke towards its way and it’s drawing air in well through the vented chassis.




_Tung-Sol 5998 / Tung-Sol VT-99_


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hehehe so I've been found out...
> 
> How about an EL34 SET instead?  Your Auris Nirvana inspired me to do more work on my design, 2021 will be the year I sell an amplifier.



Oh I’m open to that but it has to be really nice, sound really good and priced really low.

That’s my motto for 2021.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Oh I’m open to that but it has to be really nice, sound really good and priced really low.
> 
> That’s my motto for 2021.



Hmm priced _really _low isn't a thing for a SET amplifier due to all that iron, but maybe 1/3 the price of Nirvana with a better circuit.

I like minimalistic aesthetics, like this.



Anywho, I will build one and send on tour most likely, maybe mid 2021.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hmm priced _really _low isn't a thing for a SET amplifier due to all that iron, but maybe 1/3 the price of Nirvana with a better circuit.
> 
> I like minimalistic aesthetics, like this.
> 
> ...


I was kidding about priced very low. I want those transformers and that layout is what I have in mind.
It will run with tube rectification and EL34 and equivalent based. That way, I can also use my EL12 spez tubes with adapters in addition to EL34.

It has to be powerful enough to drive Susvara 😉


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice job.  Since the DV uses resistors to load the input tube, maybe try some carbon film resistors down the road (Kiwame, Riken Ohm), I've found these to have a positive effect in the past.


Okay, yes will do soon. @bcowen mentioned his Riken carbon films and was kind enough to send me a pair of 1ks. I was interested in hearing these Amtrans AMRG, so I have them on the way in 1k, 1M, and 33k.



*Amtrans Resistor 2W AMRG Series - Link - Datasheet - **More info*

@L0rdGwyn, The Darkvoice uses a 30k resistor coming from the 220uf side power caps going to each plate triode on the 6sn7 socket (pins 2 and 5). What change could occur by using a 33k instead of the 30k? (lower amps?) How should I measure this change if needed? @bcowen mentioned adding a 300k in parallel to each 33k to equal a resistance of 30k. So that is an option if necessary.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Okay, yes will do soon. @bcowen mentioned his Riken carbon films and was kind enough to send me a pair of 1ks. I was interested in hearing these Amtrans AMRG, so I have them on the way in 1k, 1M, and 33k.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What will happen is you will alter the bias point of the 6SN7 slightly, not enough to really matter.  You will get a slightly flatter load line which means perhaps a _slight_ improvement in second harmonic distortion.

With the measurements you sent, a 140V B+ with a 33K load on the 6SN7, the load line will look like this.  1K cathode resistor with 2mA plate current and 2V on the cathode (Ohm's law again, R = V/I = 2V / 0.002A = 1K resistor).  Approximate bias point is the green dot.



So, the 6SN7 voltage will be able to swing up to the B+ voltage (140V) and down until the grid hits close to 0V where it will start to draw current (roughly 40V) at a quiescent bias point of 70V.  What that means is the peak-to-peak voltage swing across the load line will be limited by the negative voltage swing - it can swing up from 70 to 140 (+70V) but can only swing down from 70 to 40 (-30V), so it will clip if driven more than 60V peak-to-peak (30+30V).

So what does 60V peak-to-peak get you in terms of power?  Into a 300Ohm load, and assuming unity gain from the cathode follower output tube (which will be slightly less than 1 in reality).  I'll skip the math, but it is around 1.5W.

At anything near 1.5W, your ears will be damaged, so the main point is changing the bias won't matter as it will not effect the degree of unclipped power available to your headphones in any noticeable way, unless you are listening at > 1.5W, which will make you deaf in short order


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 24, 2020)

L0rdGwyn said:


> What will happen is you will alter the bias point of the 6SN7 slightly, not enough to really matter.  You will get a slightly flatter load line which means perhaps a _slight_ improvement in second harmonic distortion.
> 
> With the measurements you sent, a 140V B+ with a 33K load on the 6SN7, the load line will look like this.  1K cathode resistor with 2mA plate current and 2V on the cathode (Ohm's law again, R = V/I = 2V / 0.002A = 1K resistor).  Approximate bias point is the green dot.
> 
> ...


where's a RadioShack employee when you need one...😒


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> What will happen is you will alter the bias point of the 6SN7 slightly, not enough to really matter.  You will get a slightly flatter load line which means perhaps a _slight_ improvement in second harmonic distortion.
> 
> With the measurements you sent, a 140V B+ with a 33K load on the 6SN7, the load line will look like this.  1K cathode resistor with 2mA plate current and 2V on the cathode (Ohm's law again, R = V/I = 2V / 0.002A = 1K resistor).  Approximate bias point is the green dot.
> 
> ...


Perfect. Thanks for another lesson. I really appreciate it, I love learning how the components work with one another.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> When I get my DV336se again  and that will only happen when Drop drops it again. I have requested it !.... I will then try Mullard ECC33 in that amp.
> 
> ECC33 works in my previous GOTL and Studio Six which were design for 6SN7 driver input.... so it could possibly work for DV336se but that is like *putting a Rolls Royce engine in Ford Cortina*.



That would be freaking awesome!!! Esp. a Merlin engine


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> That would be freaking awesome!!! Esp. a Merlin engine



That's what we're talking about. @L0rdGwyn  I want an amp that has the equivalent of this power.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> What will happen is you will alter the bias point of the 6SN7 slightly, not enough to really matter.  You will get a slightly flatter load line which means perhaps a _slight_ improvement in second harmonic distortion.
> 
> With the measurements you sent, a 140V B+ with a 33K load on the 6SN7, the load line will look like this.  1K cathode resistor with 2mA plate current and 2V on the cathode (Ohm's law again, R = V/I = 2V / 0.002A = 1K resistor).  Approximate bias point is the green dot.
> 
> ...



Many thanks for the detailed explanation!  With the (spec'ed) 103 dB sensitivity of the HD-6XX's at 300 ohms, I'd imagine that even 1/4 watt would be in ear damaging territory.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> where's a RadioShack employee when you need one...😒



You'd be lucky to find a RadioShack employee that knew the difference between a resistor and a flashlight.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Many thanks for the detailed explanation!  With the (spec'ed) 103 dB sensitivity of the HD-6XX's at 300 ohms, I'd imagine that even 1/4 watt would be in ear damaging territory.



Oh you bet!  There is a very distorted (no pun intended) understanding of how much power a headphone actually needs.  In reality, even the most "hard-to-drive" headphones don't even need 1W of power.

Let's look at an actually hard-to-drive headphone, the AKG K1000.  74dB/mW at 120ohm, as far as headphones go, that's about as hard as it gets (anyone else seen a less sensitive headphone?).

But 74dB is still a pretty reasonable listening volume *at a thousandth of a watt.  *0.5W with that headphone will get you around 102dB, which is damn loud!  And this is close to the worst case scenario.

You just need enough power to get the headphone to a comfortable listening volume with headroom such that the headphone doesn't clip on the peaks and the amplifier maintains a audibly acceptable degree of distortion.

Amplifiers putting out 5W, 10W, 20W, etc. into headphones are absolutely insane power overkill.  When it comes down to it, it is just marketing, power sells when it comes to amps, even if the headphone is using less than 1% of it.

Hope that makes sense, going to get off the soap box now.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> You just need is enough power to get the headphone to a comfortable listening volume with headroom such that the headphone doesn't clip on the peaks and the amplifier maintains a audibly acceptable degree of distortion.



Heresy ! I want to cook a turkey on the amp.  

Anyway I found another picture of my DV336se, Euforia (that is a Feliks Euforia by the feet) and La Figaro 339. Nostalgic ! It's like from another time dimension.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Heresy ! I want to cook a turkey on the amp.



If you want to cook turkey, have someone build you a SET amp with these, 833C transmitting triodes  just don't touch the plate leads or they'll kill you.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> If you want to cook turkey, have someone build you a SET amp with these, 833C transmitting triodes  just don't touch the plate leads or they'll kill you.



I heard a Wavac amp using those tubes once.  It was awesome. Not a lot of power, but with some reasonably sensitive speakers it was a killer sound.

Another turkey fryer: the Cary 211 amps.  Not my pic, but I used to have a pair of these. No (external) danger of electrical shock, but the 211 tubes themselves reached close to 475 degrees F (as measured with an IR thermometer) at full operating temp.  I found it best to turn them off and let them cool down for a minute or two before tube rolling.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> I heard a Wavac amp using those tubes once.  It was awesome. Not a lot of power, but with some reasonably sensitive speakers it was a killer sound.
> 
> Another turkey fryer: the Cary 211 amps.  Not my pic, but I used to have a pair of these. No (external) danger of electrical shock, but the 211 tubes themselves reached close to 475 degrees F (as measured with an IR thermometer) at full operating temp.  I found it best to turn them off and let them cool down for a minute or two before tube rolling.



Wowzers, 211s in push-pull, that is a beastly set of monos.  Could always grab the oven mitts for tube rolling  not that I have ever done it.....

Speaking of transmitting triodes, in addition to those 3C24 tubes I mentioned in my thread, I picked up their bigger brother, the HK54.  Not bad for $65!  I was the only bidder, guess no one else wants these PITA tubes 😂



By the way for the DV modders, I offered this to @bcowen some time ago, if anyone wanted to try a CCS load on the driver tube, for the cost of parts and shipping (and when I have some free time), I'd be happy to provide a set of boards ready to go.  Would probably also suggest rebiasing the 6SN7 as well, which would just mean altering the value of the 1K cathode resistor.  Question again is where the boards will fit, and some holes would need to be made in the chassis to mount the PCBs on standoffs.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Wowzers, 211s in push-pull, that is a beastly set of monos.  Could always grab the oven mitts for tube rolling  not that I have ever done it.....



Yeah, beastly and heavy. 100 watts/side in pure Class A triode. But even with NOS RCA 211's (VT-4C's) and '50's Western Electric 300B's in place they were probably my least favorite of all the Cary amps I've owned (or had on loan).  Lots of power, just no magic.



L0rdGwyn said:


> By the way for the DV modders, I offered this to @bcowen some time ago, if anyone wanted to try a CCS load on the driver tube, for the cost of parts and shipping (and when I have some free time), I'd be happy to provide a set of boards ready to go.  Would probably also suggest rebiasing the 6SN7 as well, which would just mean altering the value of the 1K cathode resistor.  Question again is where the boards will fit, and some holes would need to be made in the chassis to mount the PCBs on standoffs.



A very gracious offer and sincerely appreciated. I'm just not sure I have the technical expertise to know how to wire them in without blowing something up in the process.  Perhaps @therremans has the requisitely sized cojones to attempt it?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



Merry Christmas, scruffy.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Speaking of transmitting triodes, in addition to those 3C24 tubes I mentioned in my thread, I picked up their bigger brother, the HK54.  Not bad for $65!  I was the only bidder, guess no one else wants these PITA tubes 😂



Or perhaps nobody else knew what they were.  Which would include me, up until now.  LOL!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Yeah, beastly and heavy. 100 watts/side in pure Class A triode. But even with NOS RCA 211's (VT-4C's) and '50's Western Electric 300B's in place they were probably my least favorite of all the Cary amps I've owned (or had on loan).  Lots of power, just no magic.



Holy crap that is some serious glass!!!  Do you still have those tubes?  Worth a fortune, probably more as much as the monos themselves.



bcowen said:


> A very gracious offer and sincerely appreciated. I'm just not sure I have the technical expertise to know how to wire them in without blowing something up in the process.  Perhaps @therremans has the requisitely sized cojones to attempt it?



No worries, for some reason I have gotten modding fever since I subbed to this thread.  Apologies for barging in uninvited, but I think I will see if I can find a used DV on the classifieds and mod it myself, then maybe if others want, I can do it for them


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Or perhaps nobody else knew what they were.  Which would include me, up until now.  LOL!



And that is totally possible too, these are some seriously oddball tubes lol.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Yeah, beastly and heavy. 100 watts/side in pure Class A triode. But even with NOS RCA 211's (VT-4C's) and '50's Western Electric 300B's in place they were probably my least favorite of all the Cary amps I've owned (or had on loan).  Lots of power, just no magic.
> 
> 
> 
> A very gracious offer and sincerely appreciated. I'm just not sure I have the technical expertise to know how to wire them in without blowing something up in the process.  Perhaps @therremans has the requisitely sized cojones to attempt it?


Thank you, I’m down to give this a shot @L0rdGwyn, let me know the details when you have the free time. I will be breaking down my Darkvoice soon for the power cap replacements and all new wire. I was really thinking last night on how I can get the resistors off of the socket and onto a small pcb with a rail. I have something envisioned but I just don’t know that it will fit. Does anyone know good self tapping pcb standoffs? Or at minimum a stand-off that will securely screw into a pre-drilled hole and stay put. Maybe the ccs load is the answer?


----------



## UntilThen

What's happening here? It's 5:57am here. I came on here to the DV336se tube rolling thread and I see turkey talks. It's a strange world post Coivd-19.

Anyway I think this is a good excuse to talk 2 channel stereo with @bcowen because he sound pretty ancient, as ancient as the Cary amp. Ancient but nice.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 25, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> My collection of 5998. Still have them.




 *Have a few here, 6520's (that are really 5998) Chatham and a 421a*




UntilThen said:


> Then DV336se left and that's the start of the arrival of the monster amps. I had 4 headphones then. Eikon, Atticus, HD800 and LCD-2f.
> 
> My amps were Glenn OTL amp, Ragnarok and Canon solid state amp. That Canon is the best.
> 
> All right folks. Time for me to shower and start my Christmas day. Have a good day all !



*Canon!?*



UntilThen said:


> Oh one more before I crave up the turkey...
> 
> In all my photos of my tube amps, somehow this turns out to be the best. The humble DV336se turn out to be the best shot. That says something.



*Mouse ears are nice..like em. *



Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Hey all, Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to all of you!!
> 
> And again thanks for the continued reading, learning, and especially laughter!!





bcowen said:


> And to you as well.  Hope you have a great holiday!





therremans said:


> *1uf bypass caps:*
> _Panasonic 400VDC 1.0uF 5% Film_
> 
> 
> ...


*Your a present day Frankenstein with that unit...nice job!*


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Holy crap that is some serious glass!!!  Do you still have those tubes?  Worth a fortune, probably more as much as the monos themselves.



Unfortunately I sold the RCA's with the amps. I still have the WE's, and they're not going anywhere.    Don't even have an amp that can use them at present (my Jota amp needs the high current 300B which are only made by KR and Emission Labs AFAIK). But the WE's still aren't going anywhere. LOL!



L0rdGwyn said:


> No worries, for some reason I have gotten modding fever since I subbed to this thread.  Apologies for barging in uninvited, but I think I will see if I can find a used DV on the classifieds and mod it myself, then maybe if others want, I can do it for them



Barging in? * Way* not. Very happy you're here! I'm probably not the only person hangin' out here that knows which end of the soldering iron to hold and can swap parts all day long, but knowledge beyond that is, shall we say, somewhat limited?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What's happening here? It's 5:57am here. I came on here to the DV336se tube rolling thread and I see turkey talks. It's a strange world post Coivd-19.
> 
> Anyway I think this is a good excuse to talk 2 channel stereo with @bcowen because he sound pretty ancient, as ancient as the Cary amp. Ancient but nice.



We're having turkey for dinner.  Honey Baked turkey.  Kind of like a NOS Western Electric...stupid expensive, *and* worth it. 

And yes, I'm ancient as well.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Apologies for barging in uninvited



I barge, you barge, what's the difference? Didn't you see the sign on the door says 'Anyone welcome'  and don't forget my amp. You're shortlisted as one of my custom amp builder for my last and final custom tube amp and that's an important role. It's like making the crown for the Queen. The other shortlisted amp builders I won't tell you. Got to keep amp builders apart.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> We're having turkey for dinner.  Honey Baked turkey.  Kind of like a NOS Western Electric...stupid expensive, *and* worth it.
> 
> And yes, I'm ancient as well.



Can I come over pleaseeeee ? I'll bring salad.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Thank you, I’m down to give this a shot @L0rdGwyn, let me know the details when you have the free time. I will be breaking down my Darkvoice soon for the power cap replacements and all new wire. I was really thinking last night on how I can get the resistors off of the socket and onto a small pcb with a rail. I have something envisioned but I just don’t know that it will fit. Does anyone know good self tapping pcb standoffs? Or at minimum a stand-off that will securely screw into a pre-drilled hole and stay put. Maybe the ccs load is the answer?



Yes, I will let you know.  I've made a listing in the classifieds for a used DV 336SE, we'll see if I get any hits!  Then I will mod it and make some better recommendations for you


----------



## UntilThen

I'm talking on multiple threads. I forget which I'm talking on. All I see is my alerts number going up like the jackpots.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Can I come over pleaseeeee ? I'll bring salad.



The door is open, come on in!  No need for the salad...but bring the stewardess please. 

Just gettin' the big rig all warmed up for some Christmas organ music. Let's see what structural damage we can do to the house today...


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Yes, I will let you know.  I've made a listing in the classifieds for a used DV 336SE, we'll see if I get any hits!  Then I will mod it and make some better recommendations for you



I'll fight you for that DV336se. Who would have known a DV336se becomes a best seller at the end of 2020 ? Anyone has a very well modified, hum free or humphrey and newish 220v DV336se to sell to me?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The door is open, come on in!  No need for the salad...but bring the stewardess please.
> 
> Just gettin' the big rig all warmed up for some Christmas organ music. Let's see what structural damage we can do to the house today...



I like to see some pictures of the stereo before I bring over the stewardess    

Here's a pic of me rolling stereo amps, specifically Sansui (s)


----------



## UntilThen

I like these speakers so much I did not change it for 20 years but only replace the midrange foam surrounds to rubber. Now they will last another 30 years.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 25, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I like to see some pictures of the stereo before I bring over the stewardess
> 
> Here's a pic of me rolling stereo amps, specifically Sansui (s)



Current big rig. Downsized from the bigger big rig when I was less ancient. Just hoping this is stewardess worthy...  





Previous big rig...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I like these speakers so much I did not change it for 20 years but only replace the midrange foam surrounds to rubber. Now they will last another 30 years.



What are they?  

PS: the lava lamp is cool too.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Unfortunately I sold the RCA's with the amps. I still have the WE's, and they're not going anywhere.    Don't even have an amp that can use them at present (my Jota amp needs the high current 300B which are only made by KR and Emission Labs AFAIK). But the WE's still aren't going anywhere. LOL!



Dang well at least you still have the 300Bs!  Think you will have an amp for them some day?  Or you could give them to me for Christmas  where is your holiday spirit?



bcowen said:


> Barging in? * Way* not. Very happy you're here! I'm probably not the only person hangin' out here that knows which end of the soldering iron to hold and can swap parts all day long, but knowledge beyond that is, shall we say, somewhat limited?



Well I like to teach, so if anyone here has other questions about the DV circuit or why which thing is what way I will do my best to explain  I will get my DV so I have a member's card, but I will probably turn it loose after it is modded, released back into the wild.



UntilThen said:


> I barge, you barge, what's the difference? Didn't you see the sign on the door says 'Anyone welcome'  and don't forget my amp. You're shortlisted as one of my custom amp builder for my last and final custom tube amp and that's an important role. It's like making the crown for the Queen. The other shortlisted amp builders I won't tell you. Got to keep amp builders apart.



I'll keep that in mind UT  I am now reaching the point where I need to stop building for me, you can only keep so many tube amplifiers in one house!  So now I turn to the future and building amps for others.



UntilThen said:


> I like to see some pictures of the stereo before I bring over the stewardess
> 
> Here's a pic of me rolling stereo amps, specifically Sansui (s)



Well if we are going totally off the rails with two-channel systems here, then I will show you mine  new speaker stands coming in a week or two, from Sound Anchors.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Current big rig. Downsized from the bigger big rig when I was less ancient. just hoping this is stewardess worthy...



Dang I'm coming over to play Monopoly and if I win I get your rig.

Here's my humble home but home nevertheless. I'm also a vinyl person on stereo whereas on headfi I've Yggdrasil here I have Rega RP8 and that's all I can afford. Spend too much on the airline.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Dang well at least you still have the 300Bs!  Think you will have an amp for them some day?  Or you could give them to me for Christmas  where is your holiday spirit?



ROFL!  I'd have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure the WE's were added as a line item the last time I revised my will.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well if we are going totally of the rails with two-channel systems here, then I will show you mine  new speaker stands coming in a week or two, from Sound Anchors.



Of rails? Never ! 

I really like your setup. What are they? Can you name your components?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Dang I'm coming over to play Monopoly and if I win I get your rig.
> 
> Here's my humble home but home nevertheless. I'm also a vinyl person on stereo whereas on headfi I've Yggdrasil here I have Rega RP8 and that's all I can afford. Spend too much on the airline.



Nice!!  My HP setup is in a different room, so I don't even listen to vinyl with it either. Tidal streaming mostly...


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> What are they?
> 
> PS: the lava lamp is cool too.



They are Axis LS88 made by John Reilly from Australia. He no longer make this model but he has these in the link and I also have the Axis Voicebox S that is in the link.

https://axisvoicebox.com/


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 25, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I really like your setup. What are they? Can you name your components?



Sure thing 

Digital source is Innuos ZENmini Mk3 music server
Turntable is a restored Thorens TD125 MkII with MC Hana EL cartridge
Phono stage is my design - Lundahl MC input transformers > triode-strapped D3a > triode strapped EF86, all-in-one passive RIAA
Amplifier is also my design - MH4 input, 6A5G output SET with Lundahl LL1620 output transformers
Speakers are restored Snell J/II, new crossovers and drivers from me with NOS Mills MRA resistors and Clarity Caps

So everything is restored or built from scratch except for that Innuos server, 2020 has been a busy year for DIY!  And this doesn't even include the bedroom or headphone amps...


----------



## UntilThen

That's my Axis Voicebox S. I moved these headfi gear with me interstate to work and stay. Now I'm back home in Sydney for Christmas with my stereo and my LCD-X and Woo Audio WA22 only. So I live 2 separate lives and I fly between the 2 states with my own airline and stewardessii. 

Nah kidding I don't fly. I drive it's only 300 kms each way.

That's the Redgum Rgi120enr (at the bottom of rack) 175w 8 ohms /  265w 4 ohms / 500w 2 ohms stereo integrated amp driving the Axis Voicebox S. The Voicebox sound incredible when you crank up the volume. Shockingly life like.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> So everything is restored or built from scratch except for that Innuos server, 2020 has been a busy year for DIY! And this doesn't even include the bedroom or headphone amps...



Very nice DIY self !!!

Now I want to see the DIY bathroom please.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 25, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Now I want to see the DIY bathroom please.



Here it is, featuring Lundahl O-rings, Clarity Cap gaskets, my design.  It is being placed on the ISS, my claim to fame.

Edit: I forgot Sowter mu metal toilet seat, the works.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Nice!!  My HP setup is in a different room, so I don't even listen to vinyl with it either. Tidal streaming mostly...



Thank you. My stereo system comprise:-

Rega RP8 with Apheta mc cartridge and Avid Pellar phono stage
Sansui au-alpha 907mr 160w 8ohms / 190w 6ohms fully balanced amp
Axis LS88

I had Schiit Ragnarok doing amp duty at one time. I also had the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP amp doing amp duty at one time. That's 8 x KT88 or 8 x EL34 or 8 x KT150.

The Definitive sub at the corner is not for stereo. It's for the home theatre.   That sub took down my wall clock many years ago when watching Saving Private Ryan.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here it is, featuring Lundahl O-rings, Clarity Cap gaskets, my design. It is being placed on the ISS, my claim to fame.
> 
> Edit: I forgot Sowter mu metal toilet seat, the works.



My admiration for you grows by the minute.


----------



## therremans

Mullard pair for under $100 link


----------



## DeweyCH

Is there


L0rdGwyn said:


> Dang well at least you still have the 300Bs!  Think you will have an amp for them some day?  Or you could give them to me for Christmas  where is your holiday spirit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see a Thorens TD-125 Mk II. Brilliant deck. My main table despite having some nifty full auto technical wonders.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> I like to see some pictures of the stereo before I bring over the stewardess
> 
> Here's a pic of me rolling stereo amps, specifically Sansui (s)


Here I am just happy with the 7070. Nice collection.


----------



## UntilThen

therremans said:


> Mullard pair for under $100 link



One GEC 6080 for US$418 faint ...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GEC-608...hDarwoV3BBEV2b&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I better keep my pair of GEC 6080 properly.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Here I am just happy with the 7070. Nice collection.



Sansui 7070 looks beautiful. Hope yours is in mint condition.

I had Sansui au-7700 and au-717 in really good condition but I sold off the 7700 to @UsoppNoKami and now he has deserted me.  Sold off the 717 early this year. I really miss those 2 amps. Beautiful sound. However the 907mr is my fav. It's incredible with both speakers and headphones. Not for sale.


----------



## UntilThen

It's because I was chasing Sansui amps that I cancel my DNA Stratus order after 9 months wait. Now I will never know how a Stratus sound like ... unless I order one again.


----------



## UntilThen

Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP, Schiit Ragnarok and Redgum Rgi120enr auditioning in my lounge for 2 weeks. Rega RP8 in attendance. 25th Sept 2017.


----------



## UntilThen

In the end I kept this and it could drive HE6se easily if I get that headphone.


----------



## UntilThen

Where's all the tube rolling? Given up? 

Well a picture to inspire you. When I was running Telefunken EL11 x 2 as drivers and EL11 x 4 as power tubes in GOTL.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 25, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> I see a Thorens TD-125 Mk II. Brilliant deck. My main table despite having some nifty full auto technical wonders.



Hey thanks!  I made a Christmas recording of the Thorens with Zoom digital recorder, not the same as real life but still pretty good I think!



Here is some Art Blakey too


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Where's all the tube rolling? Given up?
> 
> Well a picture to inspire you. When I was running Telefunken EL11 x 2 as drivers and EL11 x 4 as power tubes in GOTL.



My Darkvoice is upside down on the desk (again) right now so I can figure out how to get these two football sized caps stuffed in.  Eh...who needs a bottom cover.  I'll just put it on some stilts and let everything hang out the bottom.   So back to rolling in the Incubus, now that I just got my ears calibrated to the DV. Life is so hard sometimes...


----------



## UntilThen

Beautiful. Nothing like spinning some LPs. I'm gonna do that now.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> My Darkvoice is upside down on the desk (again) right now so I can figure out how to get these two football sized caps stuffed in.  Eh...who needs a bottom cover.  I'll just put it on some stilts and let everything hang out the bottom.   So back to rolling in the Incubus, now that I just got my ears calibrated to the DV. Life is so hard sometimes...



You trying to frankenstein your DV? Won't be surprised it sound better than the Auris Nirvana when you finished.


----------



## UntilThen

Psst @bcowen can I give some of my posts to your name? I'm hitting 56 and counting ! Let's make it yours.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You trying to frankenstein your DV? Won't be surprised it sound better than the Auris Nirvana when you finished.



It's slowly franken-ing.  Trying to keep up with @therremans is proving to be an exercise in futility though.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Psst @bcowen can I give some of my posts to your name? I'm hitting 56 and counting ! Let's make it yours.



LOL!  Only the good ones, which is like, what? 56?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Only the good ones, which is like, what? 56?



Downright funny you are. I just realised you use a Schiit Eater like me. And what is that Incubus Elegans... I checked and it's your DIY amp ... is that any good?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Only the good ones, which is like, what? 56?



58 now and you're third at 19. Hurry up you snail.

Ok I'm gonna go to the lounge to play some LPs. When I come back you better be 60 and all of them tube rolling no funny stuff !


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Looking forward to Frankensteining mine when I get one  right now plan to use an active load on the 6SN7 driver, current sink on the 6080, rip out the CRCRCRCRCRCRCRCRC power supply and keep a single resevoir capacitor with a solid-state high-voltage regulator, will get rid of all those big PS caps except the first.  Then we'll see what else can be done with the extra real estate!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> My Darkvoice is upside down on the desk (again) right now so I can figure out how to get these two football sized caps stuffed in.  Eh...who needs a bottom cover.  I'll just put it on some stilts and let everything hang out the bottom.   So back to rolling in the Incubus, now that I just got my ears calibrated to the DV. Life is so hard sometimes...


How’s it going? Yeah those mundorfs are going to be down to the mm, right? What do your measurements reveal.. is it possible?


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> Looking forward to Frankensteining mine when I get one  right now plan to use an active load on the 6SN7 driver, current sink on the 6080, rip out the CRCRCRCRCRCRCRCRC power supply and keep a single resevoir capacitor with a solid-state high-voltage regulator, will get rid of all those big PS caps except the first.  Then we'll see what else can be done with the extra real estate!


I really look forward to it. When you get to a place where the upgrades and changes are dialed in. I may buy a new amp and mod it fresh to your finished product and compare it to what I have going on here.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> I really look forward to it. When you get to a place where the upgrades and changes are dialed in. I may buy a new amp and mod it fresh to your finished product and compare it to what I have going on here.



I will keep you posted here!  And maybe on my DIY thread, although I would be crossposting I guess  I will measure the stock DV too to do a before and after - frequency response, THD+N, square waves - PS noise and distortion should go down significantly.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Sansui 7070 looks beautiful. Hope yours is in mint condition.
> 
> I had Sansui au-7700 and au-717 in really good condition but I sold off the 7700 to @UsoppNoKami and now he has deserted me.  Sold off the 717 early this year. I really miss those 2 amps. Beautiful sound. However the 907mr is my fav. It's incredible with both speakers and headphones. Not for sale.


I love my 7070. It's in good condition, but a previous owner restored it with new veneer that I want to replace and I converted the lights to LED. Sounds amazing, as it should since it's been something like 75% recapped.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> I will keep you posted here!  And maybe on my DIY thread, although I would be crossposting I guess  I will measure the stock DV too to do a before and after - frequency response, THD+N, square waves - PS noise and distortion should go down significantly.


Sounds good, I follow both threads. That would be great. Yes, before and after measurements would be nice to add some validity to the modifications. Also, thank you for doing this. I know many will likely appreciate what you end up with and it will further inspire the Darkvoice modders and reach many who are new to headphone tube amps.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Downright funny you are. I just realised you use a Schiit Eater like me. And what is that Incubus Elegans... I checked and it's your DIY amp ... is that any good?



The Incubus was designed and built by fellow HeadFi'er @Paladin79 .  IMO, the Darkvoice is a great amp for the money. The Incubus is just a great amp.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> 58 now and you're third at 19. Hurry up you snail.
> 
> Ok I'm gonna go to the lounge to play some LPs. When I come back you better be 60 and all of them tube rolling no funny stuff !



Well, play a full symphony or something.  Be sure to give the LP's an ultrasonic cleaning, then a rinse and vacuum on the VPI. Best clean the stylus, and better check the tracking force because you probably haven't in too long.  I'll have the Pinnacle 6J5's warmed up by then.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Looking forward to Frankensteining mine when I get one  right now plan to use an active load on the 6SN7 driver, current sink on the 6080, rip out the CRCRCRCRCRCRCRCRC power supply and keep a single resevoir capacitor with a solid-state high-voltage regulator, will get rid of all those big PS caps except the first.  Then we'll see what else can be done with the extra real estate!



So in other words, @therremans and I should just stop now and wait?     Seriously, I'll be very interested to see what you do once you get one in your hands.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> How’s it going? Yeah those mundorfs are going to be down to the mm, right? What do your measurements reveal.. is it possible?



The 47 uF Mundorfs will fit. Close, but no problem. No way I can get the Cardas .47's in there with them though without major relocation efforts.  I'm just going to order a couple Mundorf MKP .47's that are a quarter the size of the Cardas and they should fit in there pretty easily (and they're not expensive).


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I will keep you posted here!  And maybe on my DIY thread, although I would be crossposting I guess  I will measure the stock DV too to do a before and after - frequency response, THD+N, square waves - PS noise and distortion should go down significantly.



Don't forget my DV when I get it. I want that cute little amp to sound it's best. It's either for the bedside or the office.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> So in other words, @therremans and I should just stop now and wait?     Seriously, I'll be very interested to see what you do once you get one in your hands.



Don't stop because @L0rdGwyn is turning it into a SET amp   unless you want your DV to become a set amp.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Looking forward to Frankensteining mine when I get one  right now plan to use an active load on the 6SN7 driver, current sink on the 6080, rip out the CRCRCRCRCRCRCRCRC power supply and keep a single resevoir capacitor with a solid-state high-voltage regulator, will get rid of all those big PS caps except the first.  Then we'll see what else can be done with the extra real estate!



Wow I'm impressed by your knowledge. What did you say you study at uni ? Not political science I'm sure. I want a Rolls Royce Merlin in the DV.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, play a full symphony or something.  Be sure to give the LP's an ultrasonic cleaning, then a rinse and vacuum on the VPI. Best clean the stylus, and better check the tracking force because you probably haven't in too long.  I'll have the Pinnacle 6J5's warmed up by then.



I see you haven't been slack because you made it 2nd and @L0rdGwyn made it into the charts. You guys have too much time on Xmas day.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> So in other words, @therremans and I should just stop now and wait?     Seriously, I'll be very interested to see what you do once you get one in your hands.



We'll see!  Think it will be fun 



UntilThen said:


> Wow I'm impressed by your knowledge. What did you say you study at uni ? Not political science I'm sure. I want a Rolls Royce Merlin in the DV.



Mmmm I studied chemistry at university, but now I work in healthcare post graduate school.



UntilThen said:


> I see you haven't been slack because you made it 2nd and @L0rdGwyn made it into the charts. You guys have too much time on Xmas day.



I'm famous!  And on Christmas too


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Mmmm I studied chemistry at university, but now I work in healthcare post graduate school.



And you build tube amps? What has healthcare to do with tube amps unless you vaccinate it?

Congrats. I love all healthcare workers because my son's a doctor but he's not touching my amps internals.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Don't stop because @L0rdGwyn is turning it into a SET amp   unless you want your DV to become a set amp.



All that extra room should provide space for an extra socket.  Two 300B's....mmmmmmmmm.  I suppose I can deal with a solid state rectifier in sacrifice.  Great idea!  Hope @L0rdGwyn is listening in.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I see you haven't been slack because you made it 2nd and @L0rdGwyn made it into the charts. You guys have too much time on Xmas day.



Not to point out the obvious or anything, but you're lagging for the month. And I apparently have too much time, well, _all_ the time.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Not to point out the obvious or anything, but you're lagging for the month. And I apparently have too much time, well, _all_ the time.



Damm that's glaringly obvious and I have 200 points to catch up   

I can't type fast enough despite posting on multiple threads and saying hello to all my long lost friends. What a way to end 2020 ! .... and then I met you and that Gwyn pop up out of nowhere and that Jedi - glurp.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Damm that's glaringly obvious and I have 200 points to catch up
> 
> I can't type fast enough despite posting on multiple threads and saying hello to all my long lost friends. What a way to end 2020 ! .... and then I met you and that Gwyn pop up out of nowhere and that Jedi - glurp.



I'll give you some of mine.  But you'd probably only want the 3 good ones so it won't help much.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'll give you some of mine.  But you'd probably only want the 3 good ones so it won't help much.



Not only are you interested in audio but you're witty. I'm not getting anything from you unless you test negative. Give the 3 good ones and some bad ones to Gwyn because he's off the chart now. His fame has a short life !


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> And you build tube amps? What has healthcare to do with tube amps unless you vaccinate it?



Absolutely nothing  but math and physics background sure does help!  There is always more to learn.

I need to start splitting out my posts, so I can stay famous


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Absolutely nothing  but math and physics background sure does help!  There is always more to learn.
> 
> I need to start splitting out my posts, so I can stay famous



I'm at a lost for words. Do you mean spitting and not splitting? I have to get @leftside in here to help with your post count. He will contribute to the tube rolling with his treasure chest or ship.


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> Absolutely nothing  but math and physics background sure does help!  There is always more to learn.
> 
> I need to start splitting out my posts, so I can stay famous


For more than Andy Warhol’s fifteen minutes?...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> I'm at a lost for words. Do you mean spitting and not splitting? I have to get @leftside in here to help with your post count. He will contribute to the tube rolling with his treasure chest or ship.



Splitting and spitting, anything to get the post count up so I can stay on "The List"


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> For more than Andy Warhol’s fifteen minutes?...


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'll give you some of mine.  But you'd probably only want the 3 good ones so it won't help much.



No need, I'm posting on Dog-Fi now. Watch my count climb.   
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dog-fi.460466/post-16061729


----------



## UntilThen

@bcowen are you awake yet? I'm passing the baton to you. Gonna hit the sack. It's been quite a day at the Today.FM !

Go ahead. Do your worst.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright got to go now. Even covering the vinyl sections. Feel like an international journalist.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> No need, I'm posting on Dog-Fi now. Watch my count climb.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dog-fi.460466/post-16061729



Man, all these undiscovered threads...and so little time.    Love the pup!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The Incubus was designed and built by fellow HeadFi'er @Paladin79 .  IMO, the Darkvoice is a great amp for the money. The Incubus is just a great amp.


You are most kind Bill and one day I may build a few more, not sideways though, they are all unique but some were more unique than others.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are most kind Bill and one day I may build a few more, not sideways though, they are all unique but some were more unique than others.



Hmmmmm....that one looks strangely similar to mine for some reason.  Did you build a second one sideways?  Or is that a picture of mine for, you know, like posterity and all knowing that it would never be the same once it fell into my dastardly hands?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hmmmmm....that one looks strangely similar to mine for some reason.  Did you build a second one sideways?  Or is that a picture of mine for, you know, like posterity and all knowing that it would never be the same once it fell into my dastardly hands?


Well you did try to modify most everything on the outside you could get your hands on, the photo is your amp in its purist form.   You should get over to the 6sn7 reference forum, folks are awaiting your thoughts on three tubes you were comparing. Since you were not there I offered my opinion instead lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well you did try to modify most everything on the outside you could get your hands on, the photo is your amp in its purist form.   You should get over to the 6sn7 reference forum, folks are awaiting your thoughts on three tubes you were comparing. Since you were not there I offered my opinion instead lol.



Dang it.  All these _discovered_ threads and so little time.  

And all I did was, um, _customize_ the transformer cover. Sheeez.  Oh, and moved your logo plate from the bottom to the front side. Couldn't figure out why you put such a cool looking thing on the bottom where it couldn't be seen.  Thought it might have been just a senior moment thing so I fixed it.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Dang it.  All these _discovered_ threads and so little time.
> 
> And all I did was, um, _customize_ the transformer cover. Sheeez.  Oh, and moved your logo plate from the bottom to the front side. Couldn't figure out why you put such a cool looking thing on the bottom where it couldn't be seen.  Thought it might have been just a senior moment thing so I fixed it.  LOL!


Hey at least I am lucid part of the time, I prefer the looks of the small logo especially when using quality hardwoods. Anymore I just let the person receiving the amp decide on which logo to use, and where to place them.

Hopefully your Darkvoice mods are going well and if you get down to a single top plate I will try to help with a nice cabinet, even one that is sideways if you go that direction.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey at least I am lucid part of the time, I prefer the looks of the small logo especially when using quality hardwoods. Anymore I just let the person receiving the amp decide on which logo to use, and where to place them.
> 
> Hopefully your Darkvoice mods are going well and if you get down to a single top plate I will try to help with a nice cabinet, even one that is sideways if you go that direction.



The next step with the DV is getting these caps in. The big 47 uF Mundorfs can be squeezed in.  The Cardas 0.47's I wanted to use for bypasses?  Ugh.





But the answer dawned on me this morning:  





But while all that is happening, the Incubus has resumed its rightful place on the throne:


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The next step with the DV is getting these caps in. The big 47 uF Mundorfs can be squeezed in.  The Cardas 0.47's I wanted to use for bypasses?  Ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The way the metal cabinet works for the DV, what a person could do is just mount a frame underneath it and not worry about putting the bottom back on, thus allowing for larger caps. Use long screws that thread into the holes but then cut the heads and drill holes in the bottom frame so that all is secure but you can lift the amp off easily to make more changes. Here is a very rough drawing. You could easily double or triple the space inside the cabinet with such a move. The screw threads would go down into pre-drilled holes in the lower frame. I could even make allowance for the front and back plates so all stayed flush.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> The way the metal cabinet works for the DV, what a person could do is just mount a frame underneath it and not worry about putting the bottom back on, thus allowing for larger caps. Use long screws that thread into the holes but then cut the heads and drill holes in the bottom frame so that all is secure but you can lift the amp off easily to make more changes. Here is a very rough drawing. You could easily double or triple the space inside the cabinet with such a move. The screw threads would go down into pre-drilled holes in the lower frame. I could even make allowance for the front and back plates so all stayed flush.


Yes! I had a similar thought. One could simply screw on a metal box/extension with an open bottom and top that could be finished to look very similar to the original textured mat black paint...I just don’t have the sheet metal tools like a 90 degree bend press. Out of my element but would be fun to fabricate. Then the bottom plate could still be used and attached to the bottom of this extension piece. I did auto paint for about a decade but not much metal fabrication experience, I made the metal fabrication of others look really nice with bondo, paint and clear.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yes! I had a similar thought. One could simply screw on a metal box/extension with an open bottom and top that could be finished to look very similar to the original textured mat black paint...I just don’t have the sheet metal tools like a 90 degree bend press. Out of my element but would be fun to fabricate. Then the bottom plate could still be used and attached to the bottom of this extension piece. I did auto paint for about a decade but not much metal fabrication experience, I made the metal fabrication of others look really nice with bondo, paint and clear.


I know how Bill believes in the sonic qualities of specific wood types so I was going to humor him and use tiger maple. As far as joining cabinets together to match I have done a little of that. Here are two BH Crack cabinets joined for needed space.


----------



## UntilThen

A Paladin joins the rank. I remember paladins from Diablo 2 from my childhood days. How time flies.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Man, all these undiscovered threads...and so little time.    Love the pup!



The pup is my tube rolling assistant. He knows which tubes sound best by sniffing it.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey at least I am lucid part of the time, I prefer the looks of the small logo especially when using quality hardwoods. Anymore I just let the person receiving the amp decide on which logo to use, and where to place them.
> 
> Hopefully your Darkvoice mods are going well and if you get down to a single top plate I will try to help with a nice cabinet, even one that is sideways if you go that direction.



These wood enclosure tube amps looks very nice. I like wood. Oh well I like tube amps especially those with great aesthetics. 

I'm a gonna leave you guys here to carry on. My time is up here. Too many other threads to chat in. Will drop in from time to time. 

@bcowen I'm at pole position at 70. You're 4th at 26 and @L0rdGwyn is no where to be seen. Buckle up !


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> A Paladin joins the rank. I remember paladins from Diablo 2 from my childhood days. How time flies.


They date back a bit farther:

The paladins (or Twelve Peers) are twelve fictional *knights* of legend, the foremost members of *Charlemagne*'s *court* in the 8th century. They first appear in the mediaeval (12th century) chanson de geste cycle of the Matter of France, where they play a similar role to the *Knights* of the Round Table in Arthurian romance. 

Just not as well known as the Knights of the round table.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> They date back a bit farther:
> 
> The paladins (or Twelve Peers) are twelve fictional *knights* of legend, the foremost members of *Charlemagne*'s *court* in the 8th century. They first appear in the mediaeval (12th century) chanson de geste cycle of the Matter of France, where they play a similar role to the *Knights* of the Round Table in Arthurian romance.
> 
> Just not as well known as the Knights of the round table.



Oooooh. Now you got me interested just when I'm about to leave. I'm Sir Tube a lot.   

I do love King Arthur and the stories but mostly I just love Guinevere. You know how that ended. It caused the downfall of the kingdom ! Oh no no, Guinevere ain't gonna cause the downfall of my tube rolling. It ain't over yet.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The pup is my tube rolling assistant. He knows which tubes sound best by sniffing it.



Man, cool dog!  But if he sniffs a GE tube do you have to take him to the vet for emergency treatment?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> These wood enclosure tube amps looks very nice. I like wood. Oh well I like tube amps especially those with great aesthetics.
> 
> I'm a gonna leave you guys here to carry on. My time is up here. Too many other threads to chat in. Will drop in from time to time.
> 
> @bcowen I'm at pole position at 70. You're 4th at 26 and @L0rdGwyn is no where to be seen. Buckle up !



You can't leave now!  Geeez.  I'm in the middle of posting a bunch of PM's to myself just to get my count up.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You can't leave now!  Geeez.  I'm in the middle of posting a bunch of PM's to myself just to get my count up.



Hahaha. So now I know you're Bill. I thought you are Charlie. Christmas 2020 will be remembered for me chatting in this thread. It's all @HeatFan12 fault.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Well @Galapac is sending me his spare Darkvoice, so looks like we will be modding sooner than expected!  It will return to its home when it is done.  First order of business will be taking some baseline measurements, some time next week I will get to it hopefully.


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well @Galapac is sending me his spare Darkvoice, so looks like we will be modding sooner than expected!  It will return to its home when it is done.  First order of business will be taking some baseline measurements, some time next week I will get to it hopefully.


No rush @L0rdGwyn - Take your time and have fun! I'm interested to see what you can do with it. Should be fun.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well @Galapac is sending me his spare Darkvoice, so looks like we will be modding sooner than expected!  It will return to its home when it is done.  First order of business will be taking some baseline measurements, some time next week I will get to it hopefully.



When you finished, send it to me first. I'm your tester.


----------



## UntilThen

And @L0rdGwyn when you're finished, mod this for me. I need more sliders in the equalizer. Like 10 more.... and better and bigger caps.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> And @L0rdGwyn when you're finished, mod this for me. I need more sliders in the equalizer. Like 10 more.... and better and bigger caps.



Geeeez, you sure are demanding.  All I'd need is a listening seat that was very close...where the speakers would be like headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Geeeez, you sure are demanding.  All I'd need is a listening seat that was very close...where the speakers would be like headphones.



The closer the seats, the more expensive will be the tickets. It's like going to the Royal Albert Hall. However for you I'll give a discount. After all what are friends for?


----------



## Galapac

You know your an audiophile when all you see is a stereo system...😎


----------



## Galapac

I think this is Daryl Hannah on the right but what creeps me out more is the cigarette...seems so foreign now...




Check this page out for more....
https://flashbak.com/hi-fi-heaven-stereo-record-player-advertising-1960s-1980s-371214/


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I think this is Daryl Hannah on the right but what creeps me out more is the cigarette...seems so foreign now...
> 
> 
> Check this page out for more....
> https://flashbak.com/hi-fi-heaven-stereo-record-player-advertising-1960s-1980s-371214/



Love it!  Thanks for the link!  







I'm just happy that Schiit decided against panty schwag imprinted with the customary text.


----------



## Galapac

Oh my...they already carry Schitt paper


----------



## UsoppNoKami

UntilThen said:


> Sansui 7070 looks beautiful. Hope yours is in mint condition.
> 
> I had Sansui au-7700 and au-717 in really good condition but I sold off the 7700 to @UsoppNoKami and now he has deserted me.  Sold off the 717 early this year. I really miss those 2 amps. Beautiful sound. However the 907mr is my fav. It's incredible with both speakers and headphones. Not for sale.



AU-7700 is doing well, alive and kicking ;p


----------



## UntilThen

What's happen to this thread? I go away to mow my lawn and return to find pictures of the other gender in a state of undress. @bcowen !!! I want an explanation, thundered the school master. We need some decorum here.


----------



## UntilThen

UsoppNoKami said:


> AU-7700 is doing well, alive and kicking ;p


 
Hello Ken !!!! Listen, don't go away after just one sentence.

Guess what? I bought a hekse   After years of egging from you I have to. So it will be with me in a weeks time according to tracking.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What's happen to this thread? I go away to mow my lawn and return to find pictures of the other gender in a state of undress. @bcowen !!! I want an explanation, thundered the school master. We need some decorum here.



Shhhhhhh!!!  I'm still looking for a _really_ close-up listening chair and you're distracting me.

And you're mowing your lawn?  Like, you...yourself?  How plebeian.  That's what teenagers were invented for.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

UntilThen said:


> Hello Ken !!!! Listen, don't go away after just one sentence.
> 
> Guess what? I bought a hekse   After years of egging from you I have to. So it will be with me in a weeks time according to tracking.



Haha... i didnt really egg you on mate XD  I'm sure it will sound nice on your oblivion & WA-22, congrats on the purchase!


----------



## UntilThen

UsoppNoKami said:


> Haha... i didnt really egg you on mate XD  I'm sure it will sound nice on your oblivion & WA-22, congrats on the purchase!



You know I'm getting itchy feet again. I will need a new toy (amp) in 2021 and I intend not to hold back for the last blast. So I can go several ways:-

1. Blue Hawaii se plus Stax SR009 (but why would I? - how would this help my plan of getting only 2 headphones of hekse and lcd4)
2. Get a motherlode amp like Auris Nirvana. (I'm not sure - just heard it once although very smitten by it - can drive both my intended headphones like babies)
3. Get the improved DNA Stratus that seats between Stratus and Stellaris that Donald told me about (question is how much will I like Smurf?)
4. Get a custom amp builder to build me a EL34 transformer coupled SET amp (treading into Greenfield blind and taking a chance)

So Ken, you in your wisdom, what do you think I should do? Buy more Sansuis? Or maybe give up the hobby and just play golf? Last option sounds good and sane.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Shhhhhhh!!!  I'm still looking for a _really_ close-up listening chair and you're distracting me.
> 
> And you're mowing your lawn?  Like, you...yourself?  How plebeian.  That's what teenagers were invented for.



Listen bcowen, I blew all my money on this thing call 'head-fi', so I have to mow my own 20 acres lawn.... unless you want to come here and help me? I will let you hear my state of the art sound system and drink some aussie wine? Or as much wine as you want but you still need to mow my lawn. I need it immaculate like this?

This is my humble castle. It's nothing to shout about except I always get lost trying to find my music room.


 I need the bushes trimmed to cone shape like this too.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I have to read the 50 replies and likes I got since I went to bed. It's 5:35am now and I've a busy day ahead as a keyboard warrior with a planar magnetic on my head and never ending music from Jay Z's Tidal Master streaming service.


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 27, 2020)

Btw Bcowen, the stats have been reset and I'm still in pole position like Hamilton at 71 and you're a lowly 3rd position at 27. Gwyn is of course no where to be seen. Slacker.

Good lord, the Jedi likes all my posts.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Listen bcowen, I blew all my money on this thing call 'head-fi', so I have to mow my own 20 acres lawn.... unless you want to come here and help me? I will let you hear my state of the art sound system and drink some aussie wine? Or as much wine as you want but you still need to mow my lawn. I need it immaculate like this?
> 
> This is my humble castle. It's nothing to shout about except I always get lost trying to find my music room.
> 
> ...




First, I'm not a teenager.  Ager maybe, minus the teen. And second, even if I_ was_ a teenager, that's way more grass than I'm used to mowing.  Buy a goat.

But I'll be by shortly for the wine, just so you don't think I'm totally ungrateful. If you need any old lawn chair parts, let me know before I leave.


----------



## UntilThen

I feel I need to adopt and move you to Australia. Living in that mess is not good for your music. There's no sign of any 'head-fi' there !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I feel I need to adopt and move you to Australia. Living in that mess is not good for your music. There's no sign of any 'head-fi' there !



I keep it all neatly stacked under the red tote by the tree.  Can't have things disorganized and messy looking or the neighbors might complain.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I keep it all neatly stacked under the red tote by the tree.  Can't have things disorganized and messy looking or the neighbors might complain.



Alright a pause here while I make a good coffee. This last post have me in stitches.


----------



## UntilThen

@L0rdGwyn if you're giving the DV336se a make over, I would like to see one aspect addressed.

DV336se with whatever tubes sound a bit bloomy and fluffy to me compared to my other tube amps. I like the sound tighten up and I don't mean with just Tung Sol 7236. 

If this little amp can be made to sound with fast transients, bite to the tone, tight bass slam and ass tight control, I will get it for my cabin.


----------



## DeweyCH

Huzzah, my NOS RCA 6SN7GTB and used-but-solid Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB arrived, time to have them fight it out against the Shuguang and the new Russian-made Tung-Sol.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Huzzah, my NOS RCA 6SN7GTB and used-but-solid Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB arrived, time to have them fight it out against the Shuguang and the new Russian-made Tung-Sol.



I'll get the popcorn ready...


----------



## DeweyCH

Maybe a dumb question, but with a 6SN7 tube, how long should I let it warm up/cool down before rolling in a comparison?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Maybe a dumb question, but with a 6SN7 tube, how long should I let it warm up/cool down before rolling in a comparison?



If you're referring just to warm-up (and not break-in), then I'd allow a good 10 minutes of warm-up when doing critical comparisons on a small octal like a 6SN7.  On a normal basis, probably 4-5 minutes is plenty to start enjoying the music, but for comparisons, perhaps a bit longer just to be sure the tube is fully thermally stabilized.  For cool down?  As soon as it's cool enough not to burn your fingers when you're pulling it out.  

Break-in is another thing though. If the tube is truly "new" as in _never used before_ (old stock, new stock being irrelevant), then personally I'd give it about 20 hours of play time before making any critical comparative evaluation.


----------



## DeweyCH

Starting off with actual proper tube rolling. Shocking, in this thread, I know, but I've tapped my modding ability, so here we go.

Power tube: 1951 RCA 6AS7G
Pre tubes (from left to right): NOS RCA 6SN7GTB, Russian-made Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, stock POS tube, vintage US-made Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, Shuguang Treasure CV-181-Z

Source: Amazon Music HD via SMSL SU-8

Headphones: Beyerdynamic T1.2 (and likely an appearance by my MP and LP AKG Sextetts)


----------



## DeweyCH

First thought: the Shuguang has really nice, clean bass to it. "A Day in the Life" by the Beatles sounds like it's received a bass line I've never heard before - Paul is just punching along. Somewhat recessed vocals.


----------



## UntilThen

@DeweyCH  that's a great photo. Love it.


----------



## DeweyCH

Wow. Based on the touch of hum, this RCA tube is legit NOS. Sounds better already than the Shuguang, but I'll have to burn it in to see what it becomes. Really was wanting to hear if there's any synergy between a similar-era RCA 6AS7G and 6SN7GTB.


----------



## DeweyCH

Tung-Sol has huge right-channel hum. Like, huge. May have gotten a dud; any recommendations? Right now I've pulled the power tube and am letting the RCA burn in; could tarnish on the pins contribute to the hum of the TS? It was listed as tested, but not NOS (and I presume not listened-to, just tested on a tube tester).


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> If you're referring just to warm-up (and not break-in), then I'd allow a good 10 minutes of warm-up when doing critical comparisons on a small octal like a 6SN7.  On a normal basis, probably 4-5 minutes is plenty to start enjoying the music, but for comparisons, perhaps a bit longer just to be sure the tube is fully thermally stabilized.  For cool down?  As soon as it's cool enough not to burn your fingers when you're pulling it out.
> 
> Break-in is another thing though. If the tube is truly "new" as in _never used before_ (old stock, new stock being irrelevant), then personally I'd give it about 20 hours of play time before making any critical comparative evaluation.



Let me rain on your parade for a moment.

Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Tung-Sol has huge right-channel hum. Like, huge. May have gotten a dud; any recommendations? Right now I've pulled the power tube and am letting the RCA burn in; could tarnish on the pins contribute to the hum of the TS? It was listed as tested, but not NOS (and I presume not listened-to, just tested on a tube tester).



Maybe not the tube. DV336se has been notorious for being unpredictable with erratic hums even though the tubes are ok. If you look at the 1st version on the thread, people were doing mods to overcome this humming thingy.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> Maybe not the tube. DV336se has been notorious for being unpredictable with erratic hums even though the tubes are ok. If you look at the 1st version on the thread, people were doing mods to overcome this humming thingy.


I'm pretty familiar with the DV's hum issues, although I don't think any of the mods I've done so far are the ones that are designed to mitigate that. Hopefully it's just a need for burn-in, but as I understand (and that's limited, to be sure) the hum is primarily with never-used pre tubes. The TS is used, so I wouldn't think it needs to burn in, but I'm totally open to being wrong.


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> Let me rain on your parade for a moment.
> 
> Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?



You are right. I wouldn't wait 10 minutes. Haven't got patience for that. I'll count to 20 and just go !


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Tung-Sol has huge right-channel hum. Like, huge. May have gotten a dud; any recommendations? Right now I've pulled the power tube and am letting the RCA burn in; could tarnish on the pins contribute to the hum of the TS? It was listed as tested, but not NOS (and I presume not listened-to, just tested on a tube tester).


It’s a good idea to buy some DeoxIT red and gold to clean up and condition the pin metal.

I personally have only experienced hum with one tube and it was that Russian Tung sol red base GTB. It went away after a day of being on the amp. I then modded the amp and never had humming again so not sure if any other tubes may have given me trouble or not. It is possible that the tube owner never could get rid of the hum and sold it off due to that. I’d burn that in now and see what change you hear in 6-12 hours.


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Let me rain on your parade for a moment.
> 
> Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?


That's my thought as well.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> You are right. I wouldn't wait 10 minutes. Haven't got patience for that. I'll count to 20 and just go !



Absolutely. Get them tubes swapped ASAP - who needs fingerprints anyways


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Absolutely. Get them tubes swapped ASAP - who needs fingerprints anyways


I have a dish towel b/c I am high-tech.


----------



## DeweyCH

Schiit should make an audiophile dish towel called the Schiit Two-Ply for tube rolling.


----------



## DenverW

I had tubes that I had to run on the dark voice for 20+ hours to eliminate hum.  Take out that power tube and give it some time to see if you can lessen or eliminate the hum.

If it’s still just as strong after a day then you might have a bad tube.  If you have a friend or another amp to try it with that helps narrow down what the issue is.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> @L0rdGwyn if you're giving the DV336se a make over, I would like to see one aspect addressed.
> 
> DV336se with whatever tubes sound a bit bloomy and fluffy to me compared to my other tube amps. I like the sound tighten up and I don't mean with just Tung Sol 7236.
> 
> If this little amp can be made to sound with fast transients, bite to the tone, tight bass slam and ass tight control, I will get it for my cabin.



I would expect the sound to tighten up quite a bit due to lower distortion and better power supply rejection ratio.  As far as the hum goes, is this a 60Hz hum or a 120Hz hum people are dealing with?  If 120Hz, that will go bye bye with the mods I am going to make.  If it is a 60Hz hum, could be poor wiring of the heaters or a grounding issue, will have to look into it.


----------



## DeweyCH

DenverW said:


> I had tubes that I had to run on the dark voice for 20+ hours to eliminate hum.  Take out that power tube and give it some time to see if you can lessen or eliminate the hum.
> 
> If it’s still just as strong after a day then you might have a bad tube.  If you have a friend or another amp to try it with that helps narrow down what the issue is.


Doing that with the RCA now, will try it on the TS tomorrow


----------



## Galapac

UntilThen said:


> @L0rdGwyn if you're giving the DV336se a make over, I would like to see one aspect addressed.
> 
> DV336se with whatever tubes sound a bit bloomy and fluffy to me compared to my other tube amps. I like the sound tighten up and I don't mean with just Tung Sol 7236.
> 
> If this little amp can be made to sound with fast transients, bite to the tone, tight bass slam and ass tight control, I will get it for my cabin.


...and the switch...the horrendous power switch...


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> ...and the switch...the horrendous power switch...


Do you want a push button? That’s what they introduce in my car. No key!


----------



## jonathan c

When I see pictures of the DV 336SE, say on the Apos Audio, (Mass)drop, or Shenzhen Audio websites, the power switch does not even look to be installed straight. (Also, the sides do not look even).


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Let me rain on your parade for a moment.
> 
> Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?



If you lose your auditory memory in 10 minutes, then you're older than me.  I'm pretty sure that's not possible.


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> ...and the switch...the horrendous power switch...


Anything specific I would need to know to source a viable power switch replacement? Or is a power switch pretty much a power switch and I just need to be sure it fits in the case?


----------



## bcowen

Mailmanperson brought me these today.  Amazing how this box shipped from the UK got here faster than the box my sister shipped me from Kansas...


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Anything specific I would need to know to source a viable power switch replacement? Or is a power switch pretty much a power switch and I just need to be sure it fits in the case?



You need to be sure a replacement has the same voltage ratings and the same (or higher) amp rating.


----------



## UntilThen

DeweyCH said:


> Anything specific I would need to know to source a viable power switch replacement? Or is a power switch pretty much a power switch and I just need to be sure it fits in the case?



See the power switch on the GOTL? That would be good.


----------



## DeweyCH

UntilThen said:


> See the power switch on the GOTL? That would be good.


Hawt.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> You need to be sure a replacement has the same voltage ratings and the same (or higher) amp rating.


Do you happen to know what those ratings are? Voltage rating should just be 120 correct?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Mailmanperson brought me these today.  Amazing how this box shipped from the UK got here faster than the box my sister shipped me from Kansas...



Don't get me started on this (i'm looking at you USPS).  I had packages shipped from California and Pennsylvania at the same time.  Why something that is 3000 miles away got here in plenty of time prior to Christmas.   While the other that is 100 miles away still is "in transit".


----------



## bcowen

Very slight hum with Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  But very slight.  Not sure if it's the dual-dual adapter setup, or just the Pinnacles, or maybe just the combination of the Pinnacles with the GEC's.  I'll play around with some others once the CV4079's get some break-in and settle in (they appear to be truly NOS).






No hum whatsoever with a Foton.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Do you happen to know what those ratings are? Voltage rating should just be 120 correct?



No, I don't....not without opening up the amp (and it's busy right now). The ratings should be stamped on the side of the switch.  @therremans replaced his...maybe he took notes?


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Let me rain on your parade for a moment.
> 
> Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?





Mr Trev said:


> Let me rain on your parade for a moment.
> 
> Wouldn't waiting 10 minutes between listens totally negate any auditory memory of the previous tube? Sure you could take notes, but how reliable would they be?


It's reliable, and you can always go back to that tube and check it against your notes. I find my ears react differently to what I'm hearing in the morning versus the late evening,.. weird. I try not to make an opinion on delivery..".try."..


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Wow. Based on the touch of hum, this RCA tube is legit NOS. Sounds better already than the Shuguang, but I'll have to burn it in to see what it becomes. Really was wanting to hear if there's any synergy between a similar-era RCA 6AS7G and 6SN7GTB.


Those "new" Tung Sols are notorious for the hum.. just needs some burn in time, 100 hours or so,


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Those "new" Tung Sols are notorious for the hum.. just needs some burn in time, 100 hours or so,


Unfortunately it's the old one that's humming. I burned in the new one months ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I have a dish towel b/c I am high-tech.


I would not swap asap.. your just asking for trouble.. them resistors load up and your just slowly creating a new problem down the road.., let them tubes cool off a bit.. at least 5 minutes..


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> I would not swap asap.. your just asking for trouble.. them resistors load up and your just slowly creating a new problem down the road.., let them tubes cool off a bit.. at least 5 minutes..


How am I supposed to go five minutes without actively listening to something? I mean, really!


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> No, I don't....not without opening up the amp (and it's busy right now). The ratings should be stamped on the side of the switch.  @therremans replaced his...maybe he took notes?


I'll open mine up and look later tonight


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Very slight hum with Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  But very slight.  Not sure if it's the dual-dual adapter setup, or just the Pinnacles, or maybe just the combination of the Pinnacles with the GEC's.  I'll play around with some others once the CV4079's get some break-in and settle in (they appear to be truly NOS).
> 
> 
> 
> No hum whatsoever with a Foton.


ooohhhh please...please... report on sound comparisons to the GEC 6as7G...


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Unfortunately it's the old one that's humming. I burned in the new one months ago.


oops.. yeah, not sure what's going on there. Let her sit in that amp over night cooking, should be good in the morning, we hope!


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> How am I supposed to go five minutes without actively listening to something? I mean, really!


LOL.. your reminding me of me a year ago..   You should see all the melted imprints of tubes on my desk pad blotter.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> ooohhhh please...please... report on sound comparisons to the GEC 6as7G...



Unfortunately I don't have a GEC 6AS7G.  Only one I've heard was the one you sent me that I sent back which was, what? A couple months ago?  My auditory memory is good for 10 minutes, but not 10 weeks.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a GEC 6AS7G.  Only one I've heard was the one you sent me that I sent back which was, what? A couple months ago?  My auditory memory is good for 10 minutes, but not 10 weeks.  LOL!!


LOL... But your suppose to be the CHOSEN ONE!!! L M F A O.. fine.. what ever you can give us will have to be...fine...


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Unfortunately it's the old one that's humming. I burned in the new one months ago.



If it's a UOS (Used Old Stock) and you know it's had a good bit of play time, then chances are that running it longer won't help.  If you can return it and get your money back, that'd be what I'd do first.  If that's problematic or not possible, then try resoldering the pins. That hum could be caused by a bad connection inside one or more of the pins. Fotons and Melz are notorious for solder breakdown in the pins, but I'm up to at least 4 (old stock) Tung Sols now with the same issue. Resoldering the pins took care of it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> LOL... But your suppose to be the CHOSEN ONE!!! L M F A O.. fine.. what ever you can give us will have to be...fine...



LOL!  I'll report back...just want to give them some time to break-in before I run them through their paces.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> If it's a UOS (Used Old Stock) and you know it's had a good bit of play time, then chances are that running it longer won't help.  If you can return it and get your money back, that'd be what I'd do first.  If that's problematic or not possible, then try resoldering the pins. That hum could be caused by a bad connection inside one or more of the pins. Fotons and Melz are notorious for solder breakdown in the pins, but I'm up to at least 4 (old stock) Tung Sols now with the same issue. Resoldering the pins took care of it.


@DeweyCH Pretty much this, and any three of us would be happy to do it for ya if your not able..


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> @DeweyCH Pretty much this, and any three of us would be happy to do it for ya if your not able..


That is exceedingly generous of you to offer, thank you. I'd like to at least try and fail first though. Half of why I am enjoying this hobby is learning to do things I didn't know how to do before. If I can't, and my attempts don't totally crush what's left of this tube, I may take you up on it.

Any good reference for how to resolder a pin on a tube in the interim?


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh, and is green can deoxit with faderlube okay for cleaning pins? I still have some from when I restored (up to a point) my Luxman receiver.


----------



## therremans (Dec 28, 2020)

DeweyCH said:


> Anything specific I would need to know to source a viable power switch replacement? Or is a power switch pretty much a power switch and I just need to be sure it fits in the case?





bcowen said:


> No, I don't....not without opening up the amp (and it's busy right now). The ratings should be stamped on the side of the switch.  @therremans replaced his...maybe he took notes?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15957539

https://www.ebay.com/itm/111430779964


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and is green can deoxit with faderlube okay for cleaning pins? I still have some from when I restored (up to a point) my Luxman receiver.



That's a lubricant more than a cleaner (although it does clean some too). The red can (Deoxit D5) is best for cleaning. Nothing wrong with using the Faderlube on the pins, it just won't clean very effectively. If you don't have any D5, then isopropyl alcohol would do a better cleaning job than the faderlube.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> If you lose your auditory memory in 10 minutes, then you're older than me.  I'm pretty sure that's not possible.



I'm sure I've mentioned this before, I have the memory retention of a stoned goldfish. I blame it on all those years of mountain biking without a helmet (seems as good an excuse as any)


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Any good reference for how to resolder a pin on a tube in the interim?



@Paladin79 has posted several excellent tutorials on this, maybe even in this thread previously. If you can't find anything here, wander on over to the Reference 6SN7 thread and search under his username.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That's a lubricant more than a cleaner (although it does clean some too). The red can (Deoxit D5) is best for cleaning. Nothing wrong with using the Faderlube on the pins, it just won't clean very effectively. If you don't have any D5, then isopropyl alcohol would do a better cleaning job than the faderlube.



Brake cleaner. If that stuff won't strip the pins to bare metal nothing will.

Seriously, don't use brake cleaner.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I'm sure I've mentioned this before, I have the memory retention of a stoned goldfish. I blame it on all those years of mountain biking without a helmet (seems as good an excuse as any)



ROFL!!     

I thought goldfish were kind of stoned-from-birth, but maybe that's just 'cause they're really, _really_ boring. Even turtles are exciting in contrast.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Seriously, don't use brake cleaner.



Totally.  Brake cleaner is much more effective when inhaled.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 28, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> I'm sure I've mentioned this before, I have the memory retention of a stoned goldfish. I blame it on all those years of mountain biking without a helmet (seems as good an excuse as any)


wait what ...another mountain biker!?... this is too coincidental... oh and the red stuff that @bcowen mentioned is great.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Totally.  Brake cleaner is much more effective when inhaled.


You have obviously been inside too long, 2021 should be better if you can hold out a bit longer. 🦊


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You have obviously been inside too long, 2021 should be better if you can hold out a bit longer. 🦊


At least it’s a day shorter (no leap year)...


----------



## therremans

A fresh Mullard 6080 and the rare Tung-Sol 6J5GT.


----------



## SHIMACM

@bcowen I am very much looking forward to more pressures from the GEC 4079, mainly with double tubes in the front. I bought two pairs of GEC 4079 that are already with me and Deyan's supporters are almost here. Then I can share my impressions.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!
> 
> I thought goldfish were kind of stoned-from-birth, but maybe that's just 'cause they're really, _really_ boring. Even turtles are exciting in contrast.



Goldfish… boring? Obviously you haven't talked to anybody who spends thousands on show quality fish. Take this little guy for example: https://kingkoigoldfish.com/collections/goldfish/products/1225to14c-76

Tell me how a $300 fish isn't exciting.
For the records, I'm not one of those guys


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Goldfish… boring? Obviously you haven't talked to anybody who spends thousands on show quality fish. Take this little guy for example: https://kingkoigoldfish.com/collections/goldfish/products/1225to14c-76
> 
> Tell me how a $300 fish isn't exciting.
> For the records, I'm not one of those guys



ROFL!  I had _no_ idea.  

Of course people spending that kind of money on such small meal portions probably laugh at us for spending hundreds on little glass bottles that were technically obsoleted 50+ years ago.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 29, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Goldfish… boring? Obviously you haven't talked to anybody who spends thousands on show quality fish. Take this little guy for example: https://kingkoigoldfish.com/collections/goldfish/products/1225to14c-76
> 
> Tell me how a $300 fish isn't exciting.
> For the records, I'm not one of those guys


Nearly spent that much on just one
Petrochromis Red Bulu Point


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Nearly spent that much on this guy..
> Petrochromis Red Bulu Point



Looks like he's eating a rock.  A macho goldfish!  Now I *am* impressed!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Looks like he's eating a rock.  A macho goldfish!  Now I *am* impressed!!


He's alone for a reason!! 😂😂 just got up...gonna play catch up over coffee here in a minute...


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> A fresh Mullard 6080 and the rare Tung-Sol 6J5GT.


Love it.. very nice..


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like I've deserted this thread. Now you're talking about goldfish.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Looks like I've deserted this thread. Now you're talking about goldfish.


😂😂😂 Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the waters....


----------



## JKDJedi

Mornings roll..


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Looks like I've deserted this thread. Now you're talking about goldfish.



This is what happens when you leave.  The natives run amok.  We need to get back to stewardesses.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> This is what happens when you leave.  The natives run amok.  We need to get back to stewardesses.


Got Milk? 😂 So...how or what does one do to derust these guys... just in, a pair of KenRads 6J5.. Rust-oleum? (both tested at 110%) NOS ?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Got Milk? 😂 So...how or what does one do to derust these guys... just in, a pair of KenRads 6J5.. Rust-oleum? (both tested at 110%) NOS ?


“Sprinkle a little salt or baking soda onto the potato and then rub it over the *rust *spot, or just insert the knife into a potato and let it sit. The oxalic acid in the potato helps to dissolve the *rust*. Lemon juice can also dissolve *rust*–sprinkle some coarse salt onto the *rust*, then add lemon juice.”
  Try it out.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> “Sprinkle a little salt or baking soda onto the potato and then rub it over the *rust *spot, or just insert the knife into a potato and let it sit. The oxalic acid in the potato helps to dissolve the *rust*. Lemon juice can also dissolve *rust*–sprinkle some coarse salt onto the *rust*, then add lemon juice.”
> Try it out.


I'm so gullible.. should I?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Got Milk? 😂 So...how or what does one do to derust these guys... just in, a pair of KenRads 6J5.. Rust-oleum?



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MT7C4K3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And I'm not even kidding, actually.    I bought this for the wrought-iron railing on our front porch that had some rust spots on it before I repainted it. Worked like a dream. A gray-colored liquid to start, but once cured it turns almost black. So I tried a little on that one 6C5 I have that had a couple little rust spots, and bingo.  Yes, you can tell it's there and it's not as shiny as the (un-rusted) other paint, but it looks way better than the rust.  Just use sparingly...a very thin film is all that's needed. I'm sure there's other stuff that works well too (and probably in smaller quantities for less money), but since I already had this....


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> “Sprinkle a little salt or baking soda onto the potato and then rub it over the *rust *spot, or just insert the knife into a potato and let it sit. The oxalic acid in the potato helps to dissolve the *rust*. Lemon juice can also dissolve *rust*–sprinkle some coarse salt onto the *rust*, then add lemon juice.”
> Try it out.



Is this audiophile approved, and is sorbothane involved?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MT7C4K3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> And I'm not even kidding, actually.    I bought this for the wrought-iron railing on our front porch that had some rust spots on it before I repainted it. Worked like a dream. A gray-colored liquid to start, but once cured it turns almost black. So I tried a little on that one 6C5 I have that had a couple little rust spots, and bingo.  Yes, you can tell it's there and it's not as shiny as the (un-rusted) other paint, but it looks way better than the rust.  Just use sparingly...a very thin film is all that's needed. I'm sure there's other stuff that works well too (and probably in smaller quantities for less money), but since I already had this....


Added that to my list on Amazon, and just gave it a quick wipe with that same deoxIT (red) we use on our pins, seems to have done an ok job.


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> Added that to my list on Amazon, and just gave it a quick wipe with that same deoxIT (red) we use on our pins, seems to have done an ok job.



You fool!!
You've destroyed the patina!
Now collectors won't even give them a second look (listen?)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You fool!!
> You've destroyed the patina!
> Now collectors won't even give them a second look (listen?)



I tried to tell him that but he wouldn't listen.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> You fool!!
> You've destroyed the patina!
> Now collectors won't even give them a second look (listen?)


lol... there goes $10 . 🤣🤣💸


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> lol... there goes $10 . 🤣🤣💸



R O F L !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wideload

Mr Trev said:


> You fool!!
> You've destroyed the patina!
> Now collectors won't even give them a second look (listen?)


You’re assuming the amp is indoors... 😀


----------



## JKDJedi

well...I may or may not blow up my Darkone this week... 😐😐 (or end up in the ER) 😒 I should be excited! 🙁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> well...I may or may not blow up my Darkone this week... 😐😐 (or end up in the ER) 😒 I should be excited! 🙁



All those warning labels are scaring *me*.      What are the electrolytics in the bubble wrap for?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> All those warning labels are scaring *me*.      What are the electrolytics in the bubble wrap for?


I was gonna ask you!! LOL.. I honestly don't know.. I might have ordered them by mistake, @therremans is holding my hand on this one.. need to give you a break.. I'll bug him this month..  (but you'll be proud that I did a full calibration on that you know what only getting shocked once!!)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> (but you'll be proud that I did a full calibration on that you know what only getting shocked once!!)



And it still works?  See, I knew _something_ good would happen in 2020.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And it still works?  See, I knew _something_ good would happen in 2020.



😂🤣🤣😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask you!! LOL.. I honestly don't know.. I might have ordered them by mistake...



ROFL!  Guess there's no such thing as too many spare caps.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Guess there's no such thing as too many spare caps.



Spare caps provide their own enjoyment. Charge them up and toss to your friends/wife/dog. Hilarity ensues.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Spare caps provide their own enjoyment. Charge them up and toss to your friends/wife/dog. Hilarity ensues.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


>



At least I didn't suggest turning them into makeshift NYE fireworks.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 30, 2020)

Managed to get the film caps on, (in the kitchen even!) and was about to change out the 30k Ohm resistors but noticed they're insulated, I don't have any. So putting this portion of the modding on Hold.. anxious to hear what these simple film caps do.

+
_bypass caps for the power caps, to help bass extension , smoother power curve_. aka @therremans (*Therremans Mod*)

30k resistors below have insulation..


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I have a Darkvoice on my desk now, giving it a listen for the first time.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have a Darkvoice on my desk now, giving it a listen for the first time.


what...is that ...in the drivers seat!!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> what...is that ...in the drivers seat!!



That is a Mullard ECC32


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 30, 2020)

L0rdGwyn said:


> That is a Mullard ECC32


 Stoked to know that works on the Darkness..


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have a Darkvoice on my desk now, giving it a listen for the first time.


That tube alone with the GEC just made it one expensive amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> That tube alone with the GEC just made it one expensive amp.


yeah..  my jaw is still on the floor here.. I was gonna bid on one and nearly fell off my seat when I saw what I thought I saw was what I saw.... O.O


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have a Darkvoice on my desk now, giving it a listen for the first time.


Can I use this pic?.. I wanna blow some peoples minds on other forums...


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> All those warning labels are scaring *me*.      What are the electrolytics in the bubble wrap for?


Those would be Vishay 10w 200 ohms wirewound resistors.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> Can I use this pic?.. I wanna blow some peoples minds on other forums...



Lol sure I don't mind!  I have to admit though, the ECC32 does not sound its best in this circuit, it is not a true 6SN7 equivalent so it is not optimally biased, which I suspect is increasing distortion significantly.


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> Lol sure I don't mind!  I have to admit though, the ECC32 does not sound its best in this circuit, it is not a true 6SN7 equivalent so it is not optimally biased, which I suspect is increasing distortion significantly.


It runs 50% hotter than a 6SN7 does it not?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> _bypass caps for the power caps, to help bass extension , smoother power curve_. aka @therremans (*Therremans Mod*)



You have those installed upside down....


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> You have those installed upside down....



Look like nonpolar caps to me.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Look like nonpolar caps to me.



Awwww, man.  You ruined the moment of panic.  Killjoy.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You have those installed upside down....


no...please be kidding.. R U ?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Awwww, man.  You ruined the moment of panic.  Killjoy.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Awwww, man.  You ruined the moment of panic.  Killjoy.



LOL whoopsy daisy!  I'll just hang back and let you work your magic @bcowen .


----------



## JKDJedi

I only panicked for  10 seconds.. u guys are bad...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Galapac said:


> It runs 50% hotter than a 6SN7 does it not?



It has twice the plate dissipation, meaning it can handle twice the power, but the differences are more involved than that, mostly related to the two tubes' operating curves and "happy" bias points.  The ECC32 is more picky about voltage and bias current to land in a linear operating area.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> It has twice the plate dissipation, meaning it can handle twice the power, but the differences are more involved than that, mostly related to the two tubes' operating curves and "happy" bias points.  The ECC32 is more picky about voltage and bias current to land in a linear operating area.


Well, thanks for the update.. you saved me $2500


----------



## Galapac

@JKDJedi - That’s why you don’t always buy your tubes off the bay. Tubedepot.com has them for 1/10 the price, and even then that’s too high for me, lol. 🤫


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 30, 2020)

Galapac said:


> @JKDJedi - That’s why you don’t always buy your tubes off the bay. Tubedepot.com has them for 1/10 the price, and even then that’s too high for me, lol. 🤫


Don't have it, just checked, don't think the ecc35 is the same as the ecc32 he posted..


----------



## Galapac

This...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> Well, thanks for the update.. you saved me $2500



Let me just add that when properly biased, they are one of if not the best sounding dual triodes I have ever heard


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> This...


appreciate the help, and nothing against you, just highly skeptical that it's the same tube, I'll send them an email, thanks for the update.


----------



## bcowen

Public Service Announcement: Just in case anyone woke up this morning feeling knob-deficient, I just got this Knob Alert from Antique Electronic Supply.   
(sorry...not intending to advertise for them (although they are a good vendor) just when you get an email titled "Knob Alert" you can't help but crack up )

https://www.tubesandmore.com/produc...ail&utm_term=0_0cd0c8c92f-098e1d411d-38906177


----------



## DeweyCH

So this happened this morning:





And ach mein gott it's a lovely sound. After "Dear Prudence" I think I was convinced to come out and play.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Public Service Announcement: Just in case anyone woke up this morning feeling knob-deficient, I just got this Knob Alert from Antique Electronic Supply.
> (sorry...not intending to advertise for them (although they are a good vendor) just when you get an email titled "Knob Alert" you can't help but crack up )
> 
> https://www.tubesandmore.com/produc...ail&utm_term=0_0cd0c8c92f-098e1d411d-38906177


Might have to forward this to my wife. She's all the time rejecting knob alerts.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> So this happened this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> And ach mein gott it's a lovely sound. After "Dear Prudence" I think I was convinced to come out and play.


I just finished with the resistors swap... that was an adrenaline rush because stuff was falling out that wasn't supposed too... 🤣
Anyways letting her settle in off the desk...just in case!


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Dec 31, 2020)

Sorry if you follow my DIY thread, I will be posting this there too.

Had some time today so I took my measurements of the Darkvoice 336SE.  I wanted to use the stock tubes and not something completely unobtainium, I also have a very limited collection of 6SN7 now, so what's in there is a NEC 6520 and Russian 6H8C.  All measurements were done on the left channel into a 300ohm dummy load.



Here is the frequency response at 1mW into a 300ohm.  As you can see, there is some low frequency rolloff, about -2dB at 20Hz.  High frequency extension is good.



THD+N FFT plot at 1mW into 300ohm.  Distortion is exclusively 2nd harmonic at 0.22%.  Power supply noise at 60Hz at around -72dB, 120Hz at -78dB.



Same measurement at 10mW into 300ohm, 0.73% THD, now seeing a smidge of 3rd harmonic.



1kHz square wave 1mW into 300ohm.



10kHz square wave 1mW into 300ohm.



100Hz square wave 1mW into 300ohm.



The low frequency rolloff can be seen on the 1kHz square and very plain on the 100Hz square, the 10kHz square is pretty good with a hint of HF rolloff which can be seen on the FR plot.

I measured the output impedance as well at 1kHz, it is roughly 71.5ohm.

As I mess around inside the amp, I'll take repeat measurements for comparison.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 31, 2020)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Sorry if you follow my DIY thread, I will be posting this there too.
> 
> Had some time today so I took my measurements of the Darkvoice 336SE.  I wanted to use the stock tubes and not something completely unobtainium, I also have a very limited collection of 6SN7 now, so what's in there is a NEC 6520 and Russian 6H8C.  All measurements were done on the left channel into a 300ohm dummy load.
> 
> ...


Just don't put in 1k resistors were 1m belong..  Not that I know of anybody thats done that..  (My Darkvoice is running excellent now....wow.. very nice, thanks @therremans ) Because of the inherited elevated gain by going with the Fitz Mod I decided to stay put with the LED Mod I already had in place. (I've installed the 1k resistors in place of the LEDs) WiIl not comment on sound till this unit burns in some more, took the whole morning and two cups of black coffee... now for that Tequila.  Happy New Year


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Might have to forward this to my wife. She's all the time rejecting knob alerts.



ROFL!!


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> @bcowen I am very much looking forward to more pressures from the GEC 4079, mainly with double tubes in the front. I bought two pairs of GEC 4079 that are already with me and Deyan's supporters are almost here. Then I can share my impressions.



Tonight's roll. GEC L63's and GEC CV4079's.  I was getting a slight bit of background hum with the Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  With the L63's?  Dead silent.  Dead silent as well with Tung Sol round plate 6J5's.  So the double-double tube adapters are not in and of themselves an issue in the DV (or at least _my_ DV), but there could be some tube dependency at play.

This combo is sounding very, _very_ nice.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Tonight's roll. GEC L63's and GEC CV4079's.  I was getting a slight bit of background hum with the Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  With the L63's?  Dead silent.  Dead silent as well with Tung Sol round plate 6J5's.  So the double-double tube adapters are not in and of themselves an issue in the DV (or at least _my_ DV), but there could be some tube dependency at play.
> 
> This combo is sounding very, _very_ nice.


Awesome!  Very good to hear!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Tonight's roll. GEC L63's and GEC CV4079's.  I was getting a slight bit of background hum with the Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  With the L63's?  Dead silent.  Dead silent as well with Tung Sol round plate 6J5's.  So the double-double tube adapters are not in and of themselves an issue in the DV (or at least _my_ DV), but there could be some tube dependency at play.
> 
> This combo is sounding very, _very_ nice.


Very nice, glad to hear its working out with multiple tubes. Looking forward to hearing these power tubes when my adapter arrives.


----------



## hmscott

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, if not here somewhere, at least I've seen it mentioned.  IEM's are more sensitive than headphones to tube HISS. 

I've learned that first hand with my Xduoo TA-20.  I rolled-in a Gain Matched Pair of NOS RCA Clear Top "Baldwin" tubes and ran them for 24+ hours on a couple of pair of 600 ohm Beyerdynamics DT990 / DT880, SendyAudio Aiva's, DT770 16 ohm, and the tubes were great, really loved the Bass and Tone overall.

Then I plugged in a pair of KZ ZAX on 99.99% pure silver 4n cable balanced 4.4mm - using a 4.4mm to XLR adapter and my ears were hit by a Wall of HISS...higher in the left channel, HISS overpowering in the Right channel too.

I went back to headphones, sounds fine, back to IEM's, WALL of HISS.

Swapped a new pair of factory gain matched boxed PSVANE 12AU7-T MKII's which I'd previously verified worked - and no HISS at all, from 0-95 volume (maximum) on the TA-20, sweet sounds, and no hissy noises.

Too bad, I like the NOS RCA Clear Top Baldwins otherwise... but they have been given an RMA by the seller and I'll pick something else. 

Happy New Year!!


----------



## JKDJedi

hmscott said:


> I'm sure this has been mentioned before, if not here somewhere, at least I've seen it mentioned.  IEM's are more sensitive than headphones to tube HISS.
> 
> I've learned that first hand with my Xduoo TA-20.  I rolled-in a Gain Matched Pair of NOS RCA Clear Top "Baldwin" tubes and ran them for 24+ hours on a couple of pair of 600 ohm Beyerdynamics DT990 / DT880, SendyAudio Aiva's, DT770 16 ohm, and the tubes were great, really loved the Bass and Tone overall.
> 
> ...


----------



## hmscott (Dec 31, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> funny gif


Ask / comment with words, please. 

The moral of my story, don't accept tubes until you've listened to your sensitive IEMs on the "new" tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

hmscott said:


> Ask / comment with words, please.
> 
> The moral of the story, don't accept tubes you haven't yet listened to with sensitive IEMs


we joke around here a lot. your a new guys so maybe i should've introduced myself first.. I'm the old guy here and the rest are ancient... No seriously, why iems on a tubed amplifier?


----------



## hmscott (Dec 31, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> we joke around here a lot. your a new guys so maybe i should've introduced myself first.. I'm the old guy here and the rest are ancient... No seriously, why iems on a tubed amplifier?


Because they sound amazing, just like headphones, maybe it's a new guy thing - I'm 62. Plugged in my first tubes - correction - unplugged my first tubes in 1968, while I was repairing the neighborhood TV's.

First time back into tubes in 50+ years, wanted more power for my 600 ohm headphones, IEM's are a bonus - besides I have 3x as many IEM's as headphones, so whatever I get needs to pull weight on both piles.

Like I said, the PSVANE 12AU7-T MKII's - new and themselves breaking in - I just got the Xduoo TA-20 on Dec 27th and the tubes just before that.  So I'm in discovery mode.

No problem about the joking, I need to sync up first on the details I'm trying to ascertain with help from others... the Moose with Antlers didn't look like an Audiophile 

I've alerted my NOS tube suppliers (yeah I've jumped in with both feet) of my need to use IEM's too, so low noise tubes are a priority moving forward - whatever they supply needs to be tested for noise with a sensitive IEM to make sure there is no Cloud of Electrons Hissing around inside.

The TA-20 stock tubes I think are also PSVANE, or JJ or EH tubes, just the lower end of the product line, but they don't HISS either.

I may be stuck with new tubes of our current generation, but a couple suppliers think they can find NOS tubes that will work, a third isn't talking to me anymore... or she's just thinking.

So suggestions for NOS or new tubes that have no HISS would be appreciated, besides the PSVANE, JJ, EH, and maybe NOS Telefunken, any ideas?

I've also got a Topping D90 MQA and Topping A90 paired up that play IEM's and headphones well, along with a FiiO M15 for portable use.

The TA-20 is to get a bit more power to the 600 ohm headphones and enjoy some "tubular" sound on all the headphones and IEM's.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Very nice, glad to hear its working out with multiple tubes. Looking forward to hearing these power tubes when my adapter arrives.



Same here.  I'm hoping that round 2 with a newly fixed adapter will be more promising.  Otherwise, if its not in cards for my DV to run it like this -- I have a nice little Brimar 6SN7GT coming to pair with those CV4079s and will call it a day.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Same here.  I'm hoping that round 2 with a newly fixed adapter will be more promising.  Otherwise, if its not in cards for my DV to run it like this -- I have a nice little Brimar 6SN7GT coming to pair with those CV4079s and will call it a day.



I wanted to test the dual-dual thing out in my DV first, but now that I have with good results I want to hear what these CV4079's will do in the Incubus.  @therremans has me busy getting ready to tear the DV apart again anyway (I'm just trying to keep up  ) so now's a good time.


----------



## Mr Trev

hmscott said:


> Because they sound amazing, just like headphones, maybe it's a new guy thing - I'm 62. Plugged in my first tubes - correction - unplugged my first tubes in 1968, while I was repairing the neighborhood TV's.
> 
> First time back into tubes in 50+ years, wanted more power for my 600 ohm headphones, IEM's are a bonus - besides I have 3x as many IEM's as headphones, so whatever I get needs to pull weight on both piles.
> 
> ...



I agree that IEMs can sound great with tubes - I was really surprised at how well my Vali2 works for IEMS.
BUT, I think you might be fighting an uphill battle using the DV. From what I gather, it's pretty much made for high impedance phones, and typically IEMs are the exact opposite. There's probably no way to guarantee a tube will be hiss free without actually trying it yourself. You might be better off just getting one of those ifi IEMatch thingies.


----------



## DeweyCH

So this combo sounds amazeballs:






Just mindnumbing how deep it digs in the bass without any loss of detail. Daft Punk's Random Access Memories is so nice here.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

DeweyCH said:


> So this combo sounds amazeballs:
> 
> 
> 
> Just mindnumbing how deep it digs in the bass without any loss of detail. Daft Punk's Random Access Memories is so nice here.



My damn CV just broke, was taking it out gently and the glass just quit....live n learn I guess!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Wishing you all a happy N' healthy new year! Here's to many new tube adventures with the DV! Cheers!!!


----------



## DeweyCH

Damn. "Touch" just gave me a practically religious experience.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Damn. "Touch" just gave me a practically religious experience.


Touch? 🤔 😏 Ok.. I only had two glasses of wine too.. and this is my first night not going anywhere for New Years (in a long time.. I can't remember the last time I was home).. I thought I was gonna be sitting near the fireplace watching a movie.. 😐 Headphones it is ..and another glass of wine.. 🙃🙂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Touch? 🤔 😏 Ok.. I only had two glasses of wine too.. and this is my first night not going anywhere for New Years (in a long time.. I can't remember the last time I was home).. I thought I was gonna be sitting near the fireplace watching a movie.. 😐 Headphones it is ..and another glass of wine.. 🙃🙂



You guys are losers.  We're partying here like it's 1999.  Big rig turned up to 11 spinning some Def Lep on LP, breaking out the Ouzo, house full -- me, the wife, 2 cats and a dog...I mean, that's full, right?   My son escaped to his girlfriend's house.  I'm pretty sure it was excitement overload for him, so he's forgiven.  Happy New Year to all!!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You guys are losers.  We're partying here like it's 1999.  Big rig turned up to 11 spinning some Def Lep on LP, breaking out the Ouzo, house full -- me, the wife, 2 cats and a dog...I mean, that's full, right?   My son escaped to his girlfriend's house.  I'm pretty sure it was excitement overload for him, so he's forgiven.  Happy New Year to all!!



Its not a party without Ouzo!  Happy New Year everyone!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You guys are losers.  We're partying here like it's 1999.  Big rig turned up to 11 spinning some Def Lep on LP, breaking out the Ouzo, house full -- me, the wife, 2 cats and a dog...I mean, that's full, right?   My son escaped to his girlfriend's house.  I'm pretty sure it was excitement overload for him, so he's forgiven.  Happy New Year to all!!


L M F A O.. HAH!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O.. HAH!


----------



## hmscott (Jan 1, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> I agree that IEMs can sound great with tubes - I was really surprised at how well my Vali2 works for IEMS.
> BUT, I think you might be fighting an uphill battle using the DV. From what I gather, it's pretty much made for high impedance phones, and typically IEMs are the exact opposite. There's probably no way to guarantee a tube will be hiss free without actually trying it yourself. You might be better off just getting one of those ifi IEMatch thingies.


I didn't find too much activity for TA-20 tube rolling, I hope you guys don't mind if I hang out here a bit. 

The TA-20 has 2 12AU7's + SS output stage and supports 8-ohm to 600-ohm headphones.  My KZ ZAX is 28-ohm impedance, my DT770 16-ohm has even less impedance than my IEM's, in general.

With non-hissy tubes, the TA-20 is whisper-quiet, from 0-95 indicated volume


Spoiler: xDuoo TA-20 specs



*Go to read xDuoo TA-20 product manual*
* xDuoo TA-20 Balanced Tube Amp-xDuoo Official Store *

*Spec. of xDuoo TA-20*

Anti-interference aluminum alloy shell
Removable aluminum alloy tube guardrail
Dual 12AU7 tube
Class-A transistor expansion
Customized hi-fi capacitor
Professional volume IC
Balanced input and output
2 sets of aux input interfaces
Power supply: External electricity (AC100–240V)
Output power: Phone: 2,000 mW (32 ohms); XLR: 2,000 mW (32 ohms)
Frequency response: 10 Hz–100 kHz (+/- 1 dB)
Gain: +18 dB
Distortion: ≤ 0.01% (1 kHz, 32-ohm load)
Signal-to-noise ratio: 115 dB
Headphone impedance: 8–600 ohms
Footprint: 5.8 x 8.3 in (14.8 x 21 cm)
Weight: 3.4 lbs (1.55 kg)




I'm still considering a traditional tube only headphone amp down the road, but for now, I can dip my toes back in to "tube sound" while being able to drive most of my IEM's / Headphones.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> I didn't find too much activity for TA-20 tube rolling, I hope you guys don't mind if I hang out here a bit.
> 
> The TA-20 has 2 12AU7's + SS output stage and supports 8-ohm to 600-ohm headphones.  My KZ ZAX is 28-ohm impedance, my DT770 16-ohm has even less impedance than my IEM's, in general.
> 
> ...



You might look for some Holland-made Amperex 7316's.  They're a 'higher spec' direct sub for a 12AU7, so you may have fewer issues finding quiet ones.  The long plate variety is better than the short plate, and the Holland made versions better than the US made ones IME, but all sound quite nice.  Not sure if the long plates were ever even made in the US -- they preceded the short plate versions so may have only been produced in Holland.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> I didn't find too much activity for TA-20 tube rolling, I hope you guys don't mind if I hang out here a bit.
> 
> The TA-20 has 2 12AU7's + SS output stage and supports 8-ohm to 600-ohm headphones.  My KZ ZAX is 28-ohm impedance, my DT770 16-ohm has even less impedance than my IEM's, in general.
> 
> ...



Note too that there are many 12AU7 variants that have the same pinout and are electrically close enough to a 12AU7 that they can be substituted easily (and safely) -- you're not limited _specifically_ to a NOS or new manufacture 12AU7 itself.  5814**, 5963, 6189, CV4003, just to name a few.  

** Stay FAR away from a Philips ECG branded 5814.  You'll see those for sale and (comparatively) cheap usually. They are probably the worst sounding tube (of _any_ type) I've ever heard in my entire audio life. Yes, even worse than GE.  And _that's_ saying something...coming from me.


----------



## hmscott (Jan 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Note too that there are many 12AU7 variants that have the same pinout and are electrically close enough to a 12AU7 that they can be substituted easily (and safely) -- you're not limited _specifically_ to a NOS or new manufacture 12AU7 itself.  5814**, 5963, 6189, CV4003, just to name a few.
> 
> ** Stay FAR away from a Philips ECG branded 5814.  You'll see those for sale and (comparatively) cheap usually. They are probably the worst sounding tube (of _any_ type) I've ever heard in my entire audio life. Yes, even worse than GE.  And _that's_ saying something...coming from me.





bcowen said:


> You might look for some Holland-made Amperex 7316's.  They're a 'higher spec' direct sub for a 12AU7, so you may have fewer issues finding quiet ones.  The long plate variety is better than the short plate, and the Holland made versions better than the US made ones IME, but all sound quite nice.  Not sure if the long plates were ever even made in the US -- they preceded the short plate versions so may have only been produced in Holland.


Very helpful, thank you.  Holland and Amperex have come up many times in my searches, which helps me focus my (long!) list 

I think the Baldwin's I have that are so noisy are Long Plate's, but might be played out - near the end of their life span.  They have particularly dark "burn marks" I recall being part of the problem with running in Baldwin organs - tight spaces and near obstructions - they sounded great back then though - 70's, when I heard them live, when we had actual large Mall Stores selling Electric Organ's for the whole family.

I've heard the medical, laboratory, aerospace spec NOS's are good for low noise, I haven't ordered any yet, they are not inexpensive.

The NOS RCA Clear Top Baldwin's were $60 gain matched pair shipped here in the US.  The PSVANE 12AU7-T MKII's factory gain matched boxed pair - $75, the 12AU7-S Art Series $95 from here in the US - Amazon too. 

Any suggestions on where to get NOS tubes here in the US / Canada?  Or outside the US that will ship to the US too. 

Happy New Year!


----------



## Galapac

hmscott said:


> Very helpful, thank you.  Holland and Amperex have come up many times in my searches, which helps me focus my (long!) list
> 
> I think the Baldwin's I have that are so noisy are Long Plate's, but might be played out - near the end of their life span.  They have particularly dark "burn marks" I recall being part of the problem with running in Baldwin organs - tight spaces and near obstructions - they sounded great back then though - 70's, when I heard them live, when we had actual large Mall Stores selling Electric Organ's for the whole family.
> 
> ...


Try these guys...one of the best in the U.S. and they will not rip you off like some on eBay. Roy & Dale are great guys and are always fair and honest. Heck, you can even call them and that is rare these days. Check em out.
https://vacuumtubes.net/


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Try these guys...one of the best in the U.S. and they will not rip you off like some on eBay. Roy & Dale are great guys and are always fair and honest. Heck, you can even call them and that is rare these days. Check em out.
> https://vacuumtubes.net/



There's also Upscale Audio and Tubeworld in the US.  Both are expensive.  But you get the real deal, and if there's a problem they'll take care of you. I've purchased numerous times from Langrex in the UK as well with good results every time. He sells on Ebay as well as through a web store. His prices are quite good in most cases for European manufactured tubes.

https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes
https://tubeworldexpress.com/
https://www.langrex.co.uk/


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "bcowen, postagem: 16075118, membro: 489394"]
Rolar desta noite. GEC L63's e GEC CV4079's. Eu estava ouvindo um leve zumbido de fundo com o Pinnacle (russo) 6J5's. Com o L63? Silencioso. Silencioso também com a placa redonda 6J5 da Tung Sol. Portanto, os adaptadores de tubo duplo não são, por si só, um problema no DV (ou pelo menos no _meu_ DV), mas pode haver alguma dependência de válvula em jogo.

Esta combinação está soando muito, _muito_ bem.


[/CITAR]


bcowen said:


> Tonight's roll. GEC L63's and GEC CV4079's.  I was getting a slight bit of background hum with the Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  With the L63's?  Dead silent.  Dead silent as well with Tung Sol round plate 6J5's.  So the double-double tube adapters are not in and of themselves an issue in the DV (or at least _my_ DV), but there could be some tube dependency at play.
> 
> This combo is sounding very, _very_ nice.



Great to know it works well. Looking forward to my adapters. How would you rate the sound of this set in relation to your other valves? Would it be among your favorite games? And the GEC 4079 vs TS5998, what would you say?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "bcowen, postagem: 16075118, membro: 489394"]
> Rolar desta noite. GEC L63's e GEC CV4079's. Eu estava ouvindo um leve zumbido de fundo com o Pinnacle (russo) 6J5's. Com o L63? Silencioso. Silencioso também com a placa redonda 6J5 da Tung Sol. Portanto, os adaptadores de tubo duplo não são, por si só, um problema no DV (ou pelo menos no _meu_ DV), mas pode haver alguma dependência de válvula em jogo.
> 
> Esta combinação está soando muito, _muito_ bem.
> ...



I haven't listened to the combo long enough or done any substantive A/B comparisons to offer anything but a high altitude opinion at this point.  In combination with the L63's, and comparing as best possible the 5998 to the CV4079's, the GEC's have more harmonic info and color in the mids and a little more bloom in the upper bass without being bloated or overblown. They don't match the bass whomp and sense of power in the rest of the bass of the 5998 though.  I think the L63/CV4079 combo will be a favorite, but one of several favorites. And more geared to classical than rock/metal.  The 5998 along with either a Foton or Melz is metal-head paradise.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> I haven't listened to the combo long enough or done any substantive A/B comparisons to offer anything but a high altitude opinion at this point.  In combination with the L63's, and comparing as best possible the 5998 to the CV4079's, the GEC's have more harmonic info and color in the mids and a little more bloom in the upper bass without being bloated or overblown. They don't match the bass whomp and sense of power in the rest of the bass of the 5998 though.  I think the L63/CV4079 combo will be a favorite, but one of several favorites. And more geared to classical than rock/metal.  The 5998 along with either a Foton or Melz is metal-head paradise.



thanks for the good answer


----------



## DeweyCH

So many tubes just waiting for adapters to arrive:






And my new knob for the DV came and fits perfectly!





Question, though... why do some of my 6J5 tubes have 6 pins but one has 7?


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> So many tubes just waiting for adapters to arrive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the 7 pinner a 6J5?


----------



## JKDJedi

Going old school this morning.. 🙃 

Sylvania 6SN7W shorty & Tung Sol 6080


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> And my new knob for the DV came and fits perfectly!



Sweet!



DeweyCH said:


> Question, though... why do some of my 6J5 tubes have 6 pins but one has 7?



Probably because the person on the production line that day had math skills similar to mine.


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> Going old school this morning.. 🙃
> 
> Sylvania 6SN7W shorty & Tung Sol 6080



This is the way.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Is the 7 pinner a 6J5?


Yeah it’s the taller Super Silvertone


----------



## Deceneu808

Quick question. What do you guys use as a power tube ? Will I have more gain/power output using a different tube than what I already have ? I can't really seem to find any replacements for 6as7. I have a Millard 6080 right now and a Svetlana 6as7g but I keep wondering if I can get more power out of the DV.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 3, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Quick question. What do you guys use as a power tube ? Will I have more gain/power output using a different tube than what I already have ? I can't really seem to find any replacements for 6as7. I have a Millard 6080 right now and a Svetlana 6as7g but I keep wondering if I can get more power out of the DV.



A 5998 would be a good start.  The 6AS7G and 6080 both have an amplification factor of 2, where the 5998 has an amplification factor of 5.5.  The Western Electric site that had all the WE tube data has been taken down so I can't find the 421A data sheet right off, but it's going to be similar to the 5998 if not even exceed it a little based on the transconductance specification.  Now, the end result of this amplification factor will depend on what voltages the tube is being operated at, and that is a constant in the DV regardless of the output tube plugged in.  So it's not like you'll get "2X+" the power (or volume) out of a 5998 over a 6AS7 or 6080.  But you will get some extra... just can't tell you how much extra from a numerical standpoint.  From my own experience, the 5998 *is* a little louder at the same volume control setting as a 6AS7 or 6080. But there is no (compatible) output tube that's going to suddenly turn the DV into an output power monster just by plugging it in.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> A 5998 would be a good start.  The 6AS7G and 6080 both have an amplification factor of 2, where the 5998 has an amplification factor of 5.5.  The Western Electric site that had all the WE tube data has been taken down so I can't find the 421A data sheet right off, but it's going to be similar to the 5998 if not even exceed it a little based on the transconductance specification.  Now, the end result of this amplification factor will depend on what voltages the tube is being operated at, and that is a constant in the DV regardless of the output tube plugged in.  So it's not like you'll get "2X+" the power (or volume) out of a 5998 over a 6AS7 or 6080.  But you will get some extra... just can't tell you how much extra from a numerical standpoint.  From my own experience, the 5998 *is* a little louder at the same volume control setting as a 6AS7 or 6080. But there is no (compatible) output tube that's going to suddenly turn the DV into an output power monster just by plugging it in.


Thank you for the explanation. I have a hard time finding a 5998 tube in Europe thou. Only 6as7g Svetlanas on sale. Why are these so rare ?


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you for the explanation. I have a hard time finding a 5998 tube in Europe thou. Only 6as7g Svetlanas on sale.



They are becoming harder to find all over, with prices escalating to match. I'd just keep your eyes out for one and hopefully you can pick one up in the future for a price you can justify. I've never heard anyone say "5998's suck," so it's a matter of finding one at a price that is commensurate with the value you personally put on the sound of it.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A 5998 would be a good start.  The 6AS7G and 6080 both have an amplification factor of 2, where the 5998 has an amplification factor of 5.5.  The Western Electric site that had all the WE tube data has been taken down so I can't find the 421A data sheet right off, but it's going to be similar to the 5998 if not even exceed it a little based on the transconductance specification.  Now, the end result of this amplification factor will depend on what voltages the tube is being operated at, and that is a constant in the DV regardless of the output tube plugged in.  So it's not like you'll get "2X+" the power (or volume) out of a 5998 over a 6AS7 or 6080.  But you will get some extra... just can't tell you how much extra from a numerical standpoint.  From my own experience, the 5998 *is* a little louder at the same volume control setting as a 6AS7 or 6080. But there is no (compatible) output tube that's going to suddenly turn the DV into an output power monster just by plugging it in.


Amplification factors 421a 6.1 5998 5.5 7236 4.8 😁


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> Amplification factors 421a 6.1 5998 5.5 7236 4.8 😁


@JKDJedi - what would be the application factor of a parallel A2293/CV4079 tube in a 6AS7 socket?
like this, DV’s big sister:


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> @JKDJedi - what would be the application factor of a parallel A2293/CV4079 tube in a 6AS7 socket?
> like this, DV’s big sister:


That's a beautiful amp there.. my guess is a total of 4.. that's a guess, on the idea that they are same as 6as7g tubes.  Man that's a beautiful amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you for the explanation. I have a hard time finding a 5998 tube in Europe thou. Only 6as7g Svetlanas on sale. Why are these so rare ?


If you find any Tung Sol 6520 with the dimpled domino plates..grab them! (same as 5998)


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> That's a beautiful amp there.. my guess is a total of 4.. that's a guess, on the idea that they are same as 6as7g tubes.  Man that's a beautiful amp.


Thank you. It’s the La Figaro 339i, like a Dark Voice 336se times 2 with better components. Owners swear there is magical pixie dust inside. 🤪


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> Thank you. It’s the La Figaro 339i, like a Dark Voice 336se times 2 with better components. Owners swear there is magical pixie dust inside. 🤪


I haven’t read up on this amp. Is it aimed at driving loudspeakers?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I haven’t read up on this amp. Is it aimed at driving loudspeakers?


it's headphone amp


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> it's headphone amp


What are the benefits of running dual power and driver tubes?


----------



## Galapac (Jan 3, 2021)

therremans said:


> What are the benefits of running dual power and driver tubes?


Channel separation mostly. One set of tubes per channel with a volume pot for each. It’s good for me since my right ear has some hearing loss I can adjust the right volume a little higher to balance. Also good if you have mismatched tubes. It does have a pre amp out which the original 339 was lacking if you want to power speakers but I don’t  use it for that purpose. I will sometimes preamp out to a SS amp to try to blend the benefits of tube and SS with mixed results.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> What are the benefits of running dual power and driver tubes?


what he added and able to run/push lower impedance headphones better than single powered amps.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Channel separation mostly. One set of tubes per channel with a volume pot for each. It’s good for me since my right ear has some hearing loss I can adjust the right volume a little higher to balance. Also good if you have mismatched tubes. It does have a pre amp out which the original 339 was lacking if you want to power speakers but I don’t  use it for that purpose. I will sometimes preamp out to a SS amp to try to blend the benefits of tube and SS with mixed results.



More power too.  The LaFigaro is spec'ed at >600 milliwatts into a 300 ohm impedance where the DV 336 is a little over 300 milliwatts.  I would imagine the LaFigaro is using both triodes of each channel's output tube in parallel, versus the single triode per channel of the 336.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> If you find any Tung Sol 6520 with the dimpled domino plates..grab them! (same as 5998)


Scored a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for 150$


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Scored a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for 150$



I almost bought them. But I ended up giving up. I almost bought a GEC 6080 for 50 euros, but I went for a run and on the other one bought it in the front. I didn't hate myself for that because I have two pairs of GEC CV4079.


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> I almost bought them. But I ended up giving up. I almost bought a GEC 6080 for 50 euros, but I went for a run and on the other one bought it in the front. I didn't hate myself for that because I have two pairs of GEC CV4079.


I have had my eye on a GEC 6080 but it's 150 pounds. Glad I got the 5998's cause I already have a pair of Mullards 6080. Should be plenty for me, for now... lmao


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> I have had my eye on a GEC 6080 but it's 150 pounds. Glad I got the 5998's cause I already have a pair of Mullards 6080. Should be plenty for me, for now... lmao



So, this GEC that I missed today.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-TUBE-...438129?hash=item3b54b85971:g:FzsAAOSwy8Vf8bG4

Have you never thought of using the GEC CV4079?

It's cheap and they're saying it's better than the GEC 6080.

Only you need an adapter.


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> So, this GEC that I missed today.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-TUBE-...438129?hash=item3b54b85971:g:FzsAAOSwy8Vf8bG4
> 
> ...


I'll probably dip my toes in adapter later this year. Plenty of swaps to be had at the end of the month. I plan to test all my tubes and do comparisons.


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> So, this GEC that I missed today.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-TUBE-...438129?hash=item3b54b85971:g:FzsAAOSwy8Vf8bG4
> 
> ...


I just ordered a couple of those and an adapter. There’s too much to buy and test and play with in this hobby.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Scored a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for 150$



Sweet!  That's a great deal for a pair.  Hope they're in tip-top shape -- they certainly look nice.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  That's a great deal for a pair.  Hope they're in tip-top shape -- they certainly look nice.


Yeah, that's a crazy good price for two. I paid $180 for my single 5998. Worth it though.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I just ordered a couple of those and an adapter. There’s too much to buy and test and play with in this hobby.



The one _good_ thing about this particular rabbit hole is that it's plenty big enough for more residents.  We get together and play Bingo every night at 7:00, just in case you missed that during orientation.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The one _good_ thing about this particular rabbit hole is that it's plenty big enough for more residents.  We get together and play Bingo every night at 7:00, just in case you missed that during orientation.


As long as I'm in bed by 8 so I can watch Matlock.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> As long as I'm in bed by 8 so I can watch Matlock.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> @DeweyCH Pretty much this, and any three of us would be happy to do it for ya if your not able..


Hey, uh... this offer still on the table? I tried and failed.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15957539
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/111430779964


Can I ask what the voltage and amperage ratings are for that? Is it 2-4 volts DC and 100mA? And if so, would any voltage rating in that 2-4 VDC range work? I'd like to find an illuminated push-button switch if possible. No clue why, just do.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I want to hear if offers any improvements over the alps. I’ve heard very good things about them and that they sound as good as the goldpoint it copies. I’ve read that the Noble pot from England is an upgrade from the Alps but it costs a good amount more. Many have said that they think this stepped attenuator bests the Noble. Most attenuators won’t fit in the DV.


FYI I received the stepped attenuator you linked earlier this weekend. May or may not try installing it at some point; wanna do a power switch first and maybe then dick around with yet another volume controller. Should be way, way, way easier this time around (knocks on head). Arrived with the volume knob - same seller.


----------



## DeweyCH

Would something like this work?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000375272251.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.2.5e229087JbTVkt


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Would something like this work?
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000375272251.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.2.5e229087JbTVkt



This switch is switching your AC power.  The power from your AC outlet flows through this switch and then to the amp's transformer. So what's important here is the AC voltage rating and the AC current (amp) rating.  My DV has "Use 1 amp fuse" silkscreened on the chassis, yet a 3 amp fuse is installed (and the spare fuse is also 3 amp).  Don't know if the 3 amp fuse was installed/supplied by mistake, or whether something changed in the design making the 3 amp fuse necessary and they just didn't change the silkscreening on the amp chassis. 

So you need to look for a switch that is rated for 120 volts AC (or more), and if it were me I'd be looking for a switch that was rated for 4 amps AC (or more).  If an internal fault develops in the amp, you want that fuse to blow before you exceed what the switch is rated for.  The one you linked has different voltage values available, but doesn't specify whether that's AC or DC voltage, and shows a 3 amp rating, but again doesn't specify whether that is AC or DC.  When it comes to a power switch, my advice is to get a quality switch that is UL and/or CE listed (preferably both) with a 120v (or higher) and 4 amp (or higher) *AC* rating.  This is not something to try and save a few bucks on IMO, as an underrated switch can lead to some serious problems.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> This switch is switching your AC power.  The power from your AC outlet flows through this switch and then to the amp's transformer. So what's important here is the AC voltage rating and the AC current (amp) rating.  My DV has "Use 1 amp fuse" silkscreened on the chassis, yet a 3 amp fuse is installed (and the spare fuse is also 3 amp).  Don't know if the 3 amp fuse was installed/supplied by mistake, or whether something changed in the design making the 3 amp fuse necessary and they just didn't change the silkscreening on the amp chassis.
> 
> So you need to look for a switch that is rated for 120 volts AC (or more), and if it were me I'd be looking for a switch that was rated for 4 amps AC (or more).  If an internal fault develops in the amp, you want that fuse to blow before you exceed what the switch is rated for.  The one you linked has different voltage values available, but doesn't specify whether that's AC or DC voltage, and shows a 3 amp rating, but again doesn't specify whether that is AC or DC.  When it comes to a power switch, my advice is to get a quality switch that is UL and/or CE listed (preferably both) with a 120v (or higher) and 4 amp (or higher) *AC* rating.  This is not something to try and save a few bucks on IMO, as an underrated switch can lead to some serious problems.


Voltage-wise, more than 120 is OK? There seems to be more options at the 125 VAC level on Mouser, at least.


----------



## DeweyCH

Also can I just go for a SPST?


----------



## wideload

DeweyCH said:


> As long as I'm in bed by 8 so I can watch Matlock.


If I”m not in bed by 8, I go home! 😃


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Scored a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for 150$


Nice score!!!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Also can I just go for a SPST?



Yes, more than 120v is fine.  125VAC is perfect.  A SPST switch will work fine too.


----------



## therremans (Jan 4, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Can I ask what the voltage and amperage ratings are for that? Is it 2-4 volts DC and 100mA? And if so, would any voltage rating in that 2-4 VDC range work? I'd like to find an illuminated push-button switch if possible. No clue why, just do.


No, 5A 125VAC (3A 250VAC) this is getting AC power right out of the wall and then feeding the transformer.


DeweyCH said:


> Would something like this work?
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000375272251.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.2.5e229087JbTVkt


I looked at many switches, even stumbled upon these (these are rated for DC btw) as I wanted something different. I would be weary about using some low grade switches though. There’s a lot more full sized 6mm switch options out there but you’ll be drilling out your front plate to fit them. Yeah.. you could paint the exposed metal or use a switch that has a lip.

I used the Carling switch that the Chinese probably copied. If you look at the photo, they’re nearly identical minus the toggle portion.

I drilled the interior hole out to 1/4” so my switch would bolt on. The threaded shaft fits perfectly into the front plate cover.



DeweyCH said:


> FYI I received the stepped attenuator you linked earlier this weekend. May or may not try installing it at some point; wanna do a power switch first and maybe then dick around with yet another volume controller. Should be way, way, way easier this time around (knocks on head). Arrived with the volume knob - same seller.


I don’t even think my Chinese seller has shipped mine yet.. Not sure how this will turn out, it still says HK is waiting for the package! I will write him today.


bcowen said:


> A SPST switch will work fine too.


There’s the hot and neutral wire coming into the switch and then off to the transformer when it has a connection. Middle lugs are soldered with hot and neutral AC lines. Top empty (off) bottom lugs have the lines ran into the transformer (on).

For a SPST to work, do you just crimp together the neutral wires?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> No, 5A 125VAC (3A 250VAC) this is getting AC power right out of the wall and then feeding the transformer.
> 
> I looked at many switches, even stumbled upon these (these are rated for DC btw) as I wanted something different. I would be weary about using some low grade switches though. There’s a lot more full sized 6mm switch options out there but you’ll be drilling out your front plate to fit them. Yeah.. you could paint the exposed metal or use a switch that has a lip.
> 
> ...


If you want, I'll send you my attenuator and you can just send me yours whenever it arrives. I'm unlikely to install it in the reasonable near future.


----------



## therremans (Jan 4, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> If you want, I'll send you my attenuator and you can just send me yours whenever it arrives. I'm unlikely to install it in the reasonable near future.


That’s generous of you, I’m sure I can find the patience but if things change, I’ll let you know. Which one did you purchase? I got the 10k D shaft (not knurled).


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> That’s generous of you, I’m sure I can find the patience but if things change, I’ll let you know. Which one did you purchase? I got the 10k D shaft (not knurled).


10k knurled.


----------



## DeweyCH

I think my 5998 + CV181-Z + Beyerdynamic T1.2 combo is really, really good synergistically. My K240 Sextetts both sound really good on this, but not nearly as good as the Beyers (no s***, they're way pricier). Better combo, too, than the 5998 + RCA black-base 6SN7GTB. Such heft to the bass, such clarity, such soundstage. Very nice and I can't wait to see what it does with my ZMF headphones when they finally get here.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> There’s the hot and neutral wire coming into the switch and then off to the transformer when it has a connection. Middle lugs are soldered with hot and neutral AC lines. Top empty (off) bottom lugs have the lines ran into the transformer (on).
> 
> For a SPST to work, do you just crimp together the neutral wires?



Yup.  The switch is breaking the 'hot' connection so that no power flows. There is still live AC at the contacts on the bottom/back of the switch regardless of the switch position, but that's no different than a DPDT switch.  If you want to completely disconnect both hot and neutral from the amp past the switch (when in the 'off' position), then a DPDT switch is needed.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Yup.  The switch is breaking the 'hot' connection so that no power flows. There is still live AC at the contacts on the bottom/back of the switch regardless of the switch position, but that's no different than a DPDT switch.  If you want to completely disconnect both hot and neutral from the amp past the switch (when in the 'off' position), then a DPDT switch is needed.


Right, so the question is.. when do you need to break the neutral connection along with the hot?


----------



## DeweyCH

Quick observation: any song with a bass harmonica in it should be played through this combo. Fantastic. Fool on the Hill and The Boxer, specifically.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Right, so the question is.. when do you need to break the neutral connection along with the hot?



Need?  When you don't have a 3-prong power cord, or a 2 conductor power cord that lacks the wider blade that will only fit in the neutral slot of the AC outlet. Or in other words, when you don't have a foolproof connection to the wall outlet that _assures_ the neutral from the AC outlet is connected to the neutral in the component.  As the DV has a 3-prong (earth grounded) cord, shouldn't be an issue as the cord can only be plugged into the AC outlet one way, but this assumes that someone rewiring the internals gets the incoming hot lead wired to the switch and NOT the neutral wired to the switch.  A DPDT switch adds an additional safety by disconnecting both hot and neutral and as such is perhaps a better option, but not an absolute necessity in this case (IMO).


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I think my 5998 + CV181-Z + Beyerdynamic T1.2 combo is really, really good synergistically. My K240 Sextetts both sound really good on this, but not nearly as good as the Beyers (no s***, they're way pricier). Better combo, too, than the 5998 + RCA black-base 6SN7GTB. Such heft to the bass, such clarity, such soundstage. Very nice and I can't wait to see what it does with my ZMF headphones when they finally get here.


Which ones (ZMF) did you get?


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Which ones (ZMF) did you get?


Auteurs and stabilized Verite Closed


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Auteurs and stabilized Verite Closed


two? woah .. very nice. 👍


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> two? woah .. very nice. 👍


Yeah, I'm afraid those are the last pairs of headphones I'll ever buy.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I'm afraid those are the last pairs of headphones I'll ever buy.



ROFL!!  So says the tube addict...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  So says the tube addict...


two weeks later..check out my third ZMF headphones!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> two weeks later..check out my third ZMF headphones!



LOL!  Yeah, just wait until February....


----------



## DeweyCH

I hate you both because you’re right


----------



## Slade01

Sorry if this was already discussed...I thought I saw this before but can't find the posts.  

I have a tube that has a nice metal attachment to it.  Im guessing it has something to do with ground?  Can someone school me on this? Thanks!


----------



## bcowen (Jan 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Sorry if this was already discussed...I thought I saw this before but can't find the posts.
> 
> I have a tube that has a nice metal attachment to it.  Im guessing it has something to do with ground?  Can someone school me on this? Thanks!



Probably had a metal cover that went over it originally.  If that's a 6J5, that makes sense as that metal clip (that would be in contact with the cover) is tied to Pin 1, which is the "shell" on a 6J5.






Edit: if you don't have the metal cover, I'd suggest removing that clip just to be sure it doesn't make incidental contact with the other pins at some point.  But save it...you might be able to find an original cover at some point and you could put it back in place.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Probably had a metal cover that went over it originally.  If that's a 6J5, that makes sense as that metal clip (that would be in contact with the cover) is tied to Pin 1, which is the "shell" on a 6J5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks...yes it is a 6j5...its a GM branded tube so I'm not surprised if at one point it had a metal cover being if it came from general motors.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Thanks...yes it is a 6j5...its a GM branded tube so I'm not surprised if at one point it had a metal cover being if it came from general motors.



On the plus side, it has an M after the G and not an E.      

Have you listened to it?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> On the plus side, it has an M after the G and not an E.
> 
> Have you listened to it?



Not yet but its ready for tomorrow morning.   I was quite interested in these as these tubes seem to be made by Arcturus.   I took quite a liking to their metal can 6J5 counterparts.  Not that there is alot on this company, but the construction seems consistent with other positively identified Arcturus 6j5g.   

And yes.  GM > GE.  1000000%.


----------



## therremans

If you want a cheap pair of headphones for whatever reason or already own these.. Koss kph30i (VRKTHQ33EC 15% off) + Grado pads

I bought these sometime over the summer and they have been fine headphones for around the house with a portable DAC amp. I like the 90s look (beige). Now they have other shades. I saw a video on changing their sound with some new Grado pads and it made me look at these in a new light. I will admit that I was never really impressed with their sound. I kind of thought they were overhyped by YouTube reviewers. I also never thought about plugging them into my Darkvoice or any other amp besides my FiiO BTR5. On both amps, they do sound good (better than before) especially considering the money, surprising clarity (after pad swap) and very lightweight/comfortable. Much more so with these pads.. I am using a sonarworks preset for the Koss PortaPros and it does sound better with it on. So do that or an EQ is probably a good idea for these.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> If you want a cheap pair of headphones for whatever reason or already own these.. Koss kph30i (VRKTHQ33EC 15% off) + Grado pads
> 
> I bought these sometime over the summer and they have been fine headphones for around the house with a portable DAC amp. I like the 90s look (beige). Now they have other shades. I saw a video on changing their sound with some new Grado pads and it made me look at these in a new light. I will admit that I was never really impressed with their sound. I kind of thought they were overhyped by YouTube reviewers. I also never thought about plugging them into my Darkvoice or any other amp besides my FiiO BTR5. On both amps, they do sound good (better than before) especially considering the money, surprising clarity (after pad swap) and very lightweight/comfortable. Much more so with these pads.. I am using a sonarworks preset for the Koss PortaPros and it does sound better with it on. So do that or an EQ is probably a good idea for these.



Thanks for the detail on those!  On a related note, Drop had these HE4XX's on sale for $120 back in November and I just couldn't resist at that price. Delivered last week, and I gave 'em about 25 hours of play time to break them in some.  Partnered with the Darkvoice, all I can say is:  don't.  They have a 35 ohm impedance and at 93 dB they're not very sensitive to boot, and through the DV they will not play very loud without obvious distortion. And there is NO bass.  @L0rdGwyn 's measurements of the 336se explain the bass issue with the severe bass rolloff with lower impedance loads.  To be fair the DV is an OTL and best suited to high impedance loads (which is at least partly why the 300 ohm Drop/Sennheiser HD-6XX's mate up so nicely with the DV).  The Incubus OTL fares better with these, but still not a good pairing ultimately.  Once I stuck them in the Schiit Vali 2 that puts out about 1.5 watts into a 35 ohm load they came to life.  Still, they needed a good boost from the Loki equalizer to get the bass where it sounded full and impactful and in the same ballpark as the (un-EQ'd) HD-6XX's.  Not intending to dump on these 'phones as they have some very nice qualities at the price point when fed with enough power, and with a little bass EQ they are quite enjoyable -- nicely fleshed-out midrange and nice detail up top without being fatiguing in the least.  But with Drop's regular price at $180 on these and the HD-6XX's (regular price) of $220, there's no contest whatsoever between which is a better partner with the Darkvoice.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the detail on those!  On a related note, Drop had these HE4XX's on sale for $120 back in November and I just couldn't resist at that price. Delivered last week, and I gave 'em about 25 hours of play time to break them in some.  Partnered with the Darkvoice, all I can say is:  don't.  They have a 35 ohm impedance and at 93 dB they're not very sensitive to boot, and through the DV they will not play very loud without obvious distortion. And there is NO bass.  @L0rdGwyn 's measurements of the 336se explain the bass issue with the severe bass rolloff with lower impedance loads.  To be fair the DV is an OTL and best suited to high impedance loads (which is at least partly why the 300 ohm Drop/Sennheiser HD-6XX's mate up so nicely with the DV).  The Incubus OTL fares better with these, but still not a good pairing ultimately.  Once I stuck them in the Schiit Vali 2 that puts out about 1.5 watts into a 35 ohm load they came to life.  Still, they needed a good boost from the Loki equalizer to get the bass where it sounded full and impactful and in the same ballpark as the (un-EQ'd) HD-6XX's.  Not intending to dump on these 'phones as they have some very nice qualities at the price point when fed with enough power, and with a little bass EQ they are quite enjoyable -- nicely fleshed-out midrange and nice detail up top without being fatiguing in the least.  But with Drop's regular price at $180 on these and the HD-6XX's (regular price) of $220, there's no contest whatsoever between which is a better partner with the Darkvoice.


Yeah, DVs don't like planars. I had a pair of Sundaras that I ended up giving to my dad and they really were wasted on the DV, and vise-versa.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the detail on those!  On a related note, Drop had these HE4XX's on sale for $120 back in November and I just couldn't resist at that price. Delivered last week, and I gave 'em about 25 hours of play time to break them in some.  Partnered with the Darkvoice, all I can say is:  don't.  They have a 35 ohm impedance and at 93 dB they're not very sensitive to boot, and through the DV they will not play very loud without obvious distortion. And there is NO bass.  @L0rdGwyn 's measurements of the 336se explain the bass issue with the severe bass rolloff with lower impedance loads.  To be fair the DV is an OTL and best suited to high impedance loads (which is at least partly why the 300 ohm Drop/Sennheiser HD-6XX's mate up so nicely with the DV).  The Incubus OTL fares better with these, but still not a good pairing ultimately.  Once I stuck them in the Schiit Vali 2 that puts out about 1.5 watts into a 35 ohm load they came to life.  Still, they needed a good boost from the Loki equalizer to get the bass where it sounded full and impactful and in the same ballpark as the (un-EQ'd) HD-6XX's.  Not intending to dump on these 'phones as they have some very nice qualities at the price point when fed with enough power, and with a little bass EQ they are quite enjoyable -- nicely fleshed-out midrange and nice detail up top without being fatiguing in the least.  But with Drop's regular price at $180 on these and the HD-6XX's (regular price) of $220, there's no contest whatsoever between which is a better partner with the Darkvoice.


Nice review, that is quite a discount, sometimes I love Drop and always will for the HD6XX's value. The 35ohms is quite low. The kph30i are 60ohm and I am not sure if my output cap swap helped them out but they do seem to be full range on the Darkvoice. However, the bass slam just isn't there but that is to be expected. It does sound much better on the Darkvoice vs BTR5 as they are getting more power, that tells me they are working to their full potential.

If anyone has a pair of kph30i and a Darkvoice, let me know how it sounds.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> @L0rdGwyn 's measurements of the 336se explain the bass issue with the severe bass rolloff with lower impedance loads.



I think I've located some 33uF film caps that should squeeze in the same position as the 10uF stock caps in the Darkvoice, which in parallel would total 99uF of output capacitance.  That will help with the bass rolloff with lower impedance headphones, would get you good bass extension with as low as 80ohm headphones (f-3dB point at 20Hz), but of course the damping ratio will only be a little over 1.  So that's what I am going to attempt, we'll see if they fit or if we will have to make them fit.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> I think I've located some 33uF film caps that should squeeze in the same position as the 10uF stock caps in the Darkvoice, which in parallel would total 99uF of output capacitance.  That will help with the bass rolloff with lower impedance headphones, would get you good bass extension with as low as 80ohm headphones (f-3dB point at 20Hz), but of course the damping ratio will only be a little over 1.  So that's what I am going to attempt, we'll see if they fit or if we will have to make them fit.


Speak of the man. We are putting our mods on hold until we see what you come up with. I do not want to redo my amp next week with all new components to then hear that you found a transformer that fits and is worth the swap or a complete redesign by yourself. Thanks and Godspeed.


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 5, 2021)

Finally got around to listening to a couple of 6080s I bought from @Wid over here. The Westinghouse is kind of disappointing, but the Phillips really has a lot going for it with my Shuguang. Not quite the bass heft of my TS 5998, but for basically twenty bucks vs. $180, it does a damned fine job. Good clarity, good bass, certainly an upgrade over the RCA 6SA7G I had been running and a massive upgrade over the stock POS tube.

EDIT because without pics this is a useless post:


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Finally got around to listening to a couple of 6080s I bought from @Wid over here. The Westinghouse is kind of disappointing, but the Phillips really has a lot going for it with my Shuguang. Not quite the bass heft of my TS 5998, but for basically twenty bucks vs. $180, it does a damned fine job. Good clarity, good bass, certainly an upgrade over the RCA 6SA7G I had been running and a massive upgrade over the stock POS tube.
> 
> EDIT because without pics this is a useless post:


I had that exact same combo at one time, yes it's nice.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Finally got around to listening to a couple of 6080s I bought from @Wid over here. The Westinghouse is kind of disappointing, but the Phillips really has a lot going for it with my Shuguang. Not quite the bass heft of my TS 5998, but for basically twenty bucks vs. $180, it does a damned fine job. Good clarity, good bass, certainly an upgrade over the RCA 6SA7G I had been running and a massive upgrade over the stock POS tube.
> 
> EDIT because without pics this is a useless post:



I have a Westinghouse labeled 6080 and it is BY FAR the best sounding tube I've yet put in the Darkvoice.  Just blows everything else out of the water.


Kidding.     I actually do have a Westinghouse, but it was almost certainly made by RCA.  Not a terrible tube, but rather meh compared to the good stuff.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I have a Westinghouse labeled 6080 and it is BY FAR the best sounding tube I've yet put in the Darkvoice.  Just blows everything else out of the water.
> 
> 
> Kidding.     I actually do have a Westinghouse, but it was almost certainly made by RCA.  Not a terrible tube, but rather meh compared to the good stuff.


awww man...you had me going for two sentences...I was gonna say... shut the **** up...😂😂


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> I have a Westinghouse labeled 6080 and it is BY FAR the best sounding tube I've yet put in the Darkvoice.  Just blows everything else out of the water.
> 
> 
> Kidding.     I actually do have a Westinghouse, but it was almost certainly made by RCA.  Not a terrible tube, but rather meh compared to the good stuff.


Mine is made in Japan. Which, I'll be frank, is pretty danged cool (I used to live in Japan, have a soft spot).


----------



## JKDJedi

@therremans you were right .. these are great. 
VT-94 RCA 6J5 Tin Cans...


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> @therremans you were right .. these are great.
> VT-94 RCA 6J5 Tin Cans...



Are the RCAs better than the Ken-Rads in this case?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Are the RCAs better than the Ken-Rads in this case?


I haven't compared the two yet.. but.. these RCA got my attention. At the 6J5 thread someone kept saying.. RCA ..RCA.. RCA.. so maybe they were on to something, I'll do some comparisons tonight if I get a chance.


----------



## Slade01

Currently rocking the British blocks. GEC 6080/Brimar 6SN7GT.  Well not exactly, the Brimar here is made in Italy.  Lol.    But yeah, firing on all cylinders.  Rich...Fullest sound ever and sacrificing absolutely nothing whatsoever.


----------



## Slade01 (Jan 6, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I haven't compared the two yet.. but.. these RCA got my attention. At the 6J5 thread someone kept saying.. RCA ..RCA.. RCA.. so maybe they were on to something, I'll do some comparisons tonight if I get a chance.



Cool. If you do, let us know.  The metal tubes are really underrated due to how cheap they are.  Do you have the pinnacles also?  I'm wondering how close they are in sound.

I mean I really do believe they gotta pair with the right power tube to make them sing correctly.  Remember that Tung-Sol Mouse Ears 6SN7GT we bought probably a year ago?  I've held on to that tube, though I have always been luke warm on it.  I started to play it with the Syl Gold Brand  6080 and GEC 6080 this afternoon after testing the Brimar that came in....and all of a sudden its like a completely different tube to me, like it suddenly has new life.  More attack and bass punch.  Vocals were suddenly more assertive rather than passive. It really wowed me.  I was considering selling it too as I am going through my old "collecting dust" tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 6, 2021)

And now for something a little more, um, _pleasant_ than what's on the news right now:  the fan cooled Darkvoice.  All due credit to @therremans as this was his idea from the start.  It's a 12v computer fan with a 1/2" thick frame, oriented so it's blowing down (and pulling air through the amp's vent holes rather than pushing it in). Powered by a 7.5v wal-wart out of the spare parts bin. At a full 12v from one wal-wart it was too loud and too intrusive for my tastes.  The 7.5v wal-wart itself was putting out close to 10v (unloaded), which was still a bit too loud, so I grabbed a computer fan speed controller out of another spare parts bin (put it in a little box) to slow it down some.  Running at approximately 7v, it is quiet enough that I can barely hear it, and after 3 hours of play time, the DV chassis (and transformer) are just a touch warmer than room temperature. A lot of airflow isn't needed -- just having _some _air flowing through rather than depending solely on the heat escaping from convection makes a very substantial difference.

Need different footers as the stock feet aren't tall enough....these are some carbon fiber disks out of yet another spare parts bin. As a bonus, I've finally found a good thing about getting old....lots of spare parts bins.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NQM7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
(painted the frame black as the beige is just, well, butt-ugly)


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Currently rocking the British blocks. GEC 6080/Brimar 6SN7GT.  Well not exactly, the Brimar here is made in Italy.  Lol.    But yeah, firing on all cylinders.  Rich...Fullest sound ever and sacrificing absolutely nothing whatsoever.



Aren't those Brimars like $40 trillion each?    I've never had one, but people speak quite favorably about them.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NQM7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> (painted the frame black as the beige is just, well, butt-ugly)



I thought you found that beige/brown color on purpose.  For, you know, @Paladin79 's famed wood motifs....something he could add to the "The Cowen"...


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Aren't those Brimars like $40 trillion each?   I've never had one, but people speak quite favorably about them.



To be fair, mine was only 40 million.  LOL.    

I am guessing because mine isn't like the really older ones that aged like fine wine kind of deal.  If I am guessing correctly on what was on the box markings, mine dates from the early 60s.  It's probably like on par with the newer GEC L63 straight bottles.  It's the affordable poor mans version.  Still its one of the best 6SN7s I have heard to date...much like how awesome the GEC L63s are.  I got it for the price of a reasonable Melz 1578...so not that bad all in all.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I thought you found that beige/brown color on purpose.  For, you know, @Paladin79 's famed wood motifs....something he could add to the "The Cowen"...



LOL!  Not sure if "The Cowen" has any vents in the bottom.  Would probably stay full of hot air anyway.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> And now for something a little more, um, _pleasant_ than what's on the news right now:  the fan cooled Darkvoice.  All due credit to @therremans as this was his idea from the start.  It's a 12v computer fan with a 1/2" thick frame, oriented so it's blowing down (and pulling air through the amp's vent holes rather than pushing it in). Powered by a 7.5v wal-wart out of the spare parts bin. At a full 12v from one wal-wart it was too loud and too intrusive for my tastes.  The 7.5v wal-wart itself was putting out close to 10v (unloaded), which was still a bit too loud, so I grabbed a computer fan speed controller out of another spare parts bin (put it in a little box) to slow it down some.  Running at approximately 7v, it is quiet enough that I can barely hear it, and after 3 hours of play time, the DV chassis (and transformer) are just a touch warmer than room temperature. A lot of airflow isn't needed -- just having _some _air flowing through rather than depending solely on the heat escaping from convection makes a very substantial difference.
> 
> Need different footers as the stock feet aren't tall enough....these are some carbon fiber disks out of yet another spare parts bin. As a bonus, I've finally found a good thing about getting old....lots of spare parts bins.
> 
> ...



7.5v wall wart? Where's your LPS for crying out loud?

OK serious question… Is a fan really necessary? Shouldn't the components be able to easily handle the heat?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And now for something a little more, um, _pleasant_ than what's on the news right now:  the fan cooled Darkvoice.  All due credit to @therremans as this was his idea from the start.  It's a 12v computer fan with a 1/2" thick frame, oriented so it's blowing down (and pulling air through the amp's vent holes rather than pushing it in). Powered by a 7.5v wal-wart out of the spare parts bin. At a full 12v from one wal-wart it was too loud and too intrusive for my tastes.  The 7.5v wal-wart itself was putting out close to 10v (unloaded), which was still a bit too loud, so I grabbed a computer fan speed controller out of another spare parts bin (put it in a little box) to slow it down some.  Running at approximately 7v, it is quiet enough that I can barely hear it, and after 3 hours of play time, the DV chassis (and transformer) are just a touch warmer than room temperature. A lot of airflow isn't needed -- just having _some _air flowing through rather than depending solely on the heat escaping from convection makes a very substantial difference.
> 
> Need different footers as the stock feet aren't tall enough....these are some carbon fiber disks out of yet another spare parts bin. As a bonus, I've finally found a good thing about getting old....lots of spare parts bins.
> 
> ...


Excellent! Love it!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> 7.5v wall wart? Where's your LPS for crying out loud?
> 
> OK serious question… Is a fan really necessary? Shouldn't the components be able to easily handle the heat?


They are..but ... fun to watch at the same time.


----------



## Slade01 (Jan 6, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> 7.5v wall wart? Where's your LPS for crying out loud?
> 
> OK serious question… Is a fan really necessary? Shouldn't the components be able to easily handle the heat?



The Fan is a very nice to have, but not necessary.  Electronics devices perform better in the nice cool temperatures rather than the heat.  Same reason why liquid cooling is a premium in computer systems.  The darkvoice generates enough heat from the tubes to burn and fry and egg...granted its mostly above the chasis, but as it stands, there really is no air flow.  You help maintain and lengthen the life of the internals with cooler temps for sure, and having airflow help cool the amp overall.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> 7.5v wall wart? Where's your LPS for crying out loud?



Almost finished with it.  LOL!








Mr Trev said:


> OK serious question… Is a fan really necessary? Shouldn't the components be able to easily handle the heat?



Necessary?  No.  Beneficial?  I think yes from the standpoint of capacitors and such that will last much longer at a lower heat level.  The DV gets pretty darn warm...not like burning-your-fingers hot or anything, but much warmer than most other components.


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> OK serious question… Is a fan really necessary?


Necessary to operate? Well clearly not.
Necessary as in a mod? I think it’s a good idea, especially if you’ve gone and replaced all the capacitors inside with higher grade ones.


Mr Trev said:


> Shouldn't the components be able to easily handle the heat?


Yes, however you also have to consider what the capacitors are rated at.. temp and leakage current (max). A capacitors lifespan is measured by an equation using heat, voltage and ripple current. The speed of the internal chemical reaction is dependent on the temp. There’s a law that for every 10 degrees C the temp drops.. the cap life actually doubles. Less stress, lower leakage current, improvement in life expectancy. Leakage current increases with temperature. (I’m also no engineer.)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, however you also have to consider what the capacitors are rated at.. temp and leakage current (max). A capacitors lifespan is measured by an equation using heat, voltage and ripple current. The speed of the internal chemical reaction is dependent on the temp. There’s a law that for every 10 degrees C the temp drops.. the cap life actually doubles. Less stress, lower leakage current, improvement in life expectancy. Leakage current increases with temperature.



That's what I was going to say...just didn't have time to type it all out.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well this is just great. Tubes coming in, Liquid Platinum arriving tomorrow, ZMF goodness arriving at some point, aaaand now I have shingles in my ear.

Happy goddamned 2021.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well this is just great. Tubes coming in, Liquid Platinum arriving tomorrow, ZMF goodness arriving at some point, aaaand now I have shingles in my ear.
> 
> Happy goddamned 2021.



Bummer of serious proportions, dude.  Hope those go away quickly.  I've been fortunate to have never had them, but my wife has so I'm at least aware of how painful they can be.

Really interested in your take on those ZMF's once you're able to listen to them.  Been eyeballing some Atticus myself.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Well this is just great. Tubes coming in, Liquid Platinum arriving tomorrow, ZMF goodness arriving at some point, aaaand now I have shingles in my ear.
> 
> Happy goddamned 2021.


How do you get shingles in your ear!? o.O ouch..that's gotta hurt.. I'll break in those ZMF for you while you recover..what are good members for!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 8, 2021)

Well.. I for sure thought the Ken Rad - RCA comparison would be an easy one...not the case. I ordered a new power plug (because cables matter) for the Darkvoice, wanted something chick for it, to pump it up a notch, seems like the easiest mod for it..  Anyways.. I'll be rolling the two (RCA-KenRad) for a week to get a good grasp of things. Both are that close to each other, no night and day here. (Blue cord was originally for the Darkvoice but the Incubus quickly took over that one, felt the Darkvoice could use one too..so grabbed a red cord for her)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01L2MBYWC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well.. I for sure thought the Ken Rad - RCA comparison would be an easy one...not the case. I ordered a new power plug (because cables matter) for the Darkvoice, wanted something chick for it, to pump it up a notch, seems like the easiest mod for it..  Anyways.. I'll be rolling the two (RCA-KenRad) for a week to get a good grasp of things. Both are that close to each other, no night and day here. (Blue cord was originally for the Darkvoice but the Incubus quickly took over that one, felt the Darkvoice could use one too..so grabbed a red cord for her)
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01L2MBYWC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1



LOL!  You sure that thing isn't gonna pull the DV off the shelf?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  You sure that thing isn't gonna pull the DV off the shelf?


😂😂😂 Well I was taken aback when I opened the box... "oh....my" 😂😂😂


----------



## kylebucksot

I ordered a 336 earlier today to tinker with. Can someone more versed help me source Tung-Sol 7236 and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB?

Thanks kb


----------



## therremans

kylebucksot said:


> I ordered a 336 earlier today to tinker with. Can someone more versed help me source Tung-Sol 7236 and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB?
> 
> Thanks kb


Are you dead set on specifically these tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 8, 2021)

therremans said:


> Are you dead set on specifically these tubes?





kylebucksot said:


> I ordered a 336 earlier today to tinker with. Can someone more versed help me source Tung-Sol 7236 and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB?
> 
> Thanks kb





therremans said:


> Are you dead set on specifically these tubes?


I was gonna ask the same thing if he was set on the 7236, the 7236 has gone up to 5998 numbers... at least the last listing I saw on Ebay, $200 for a 7236!?.. I remember when @bcowen was telling us to grab as many as we could when they were $30! You might get lucky here at Headfi selling thread, guys like myself will sometimes post tubes there. Etsy and Ebay, and a few online merchants mentioned a few pages back here on this thread is a good place to start looking for both them Tung Sols. I suggest grabbing a NOS GTB though, the "NEW" GTB are prone to hum issues. Anyways.... welcome to the Darkvoice thread.. saw ya on the HifiGuides Forum asking the same question.


----------



## kylebucksot

therremans said:


> Are you dead set on specifically these tubes?


Should I not be? lol


----------



## kylebucksot (Jan 8, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask the same thing if he was set on the 7236, the 7236 has gone up to 5998 numbers... at least the last listing I saw on Ebay, $200 for a 7236!?.. I remember when @bcowen was telling us to grab as many as we could when they were $30! You might get lucky here at Headfi selling thread, guys like myself will sometimes post tubes there. Etsy and Ebay, and a few online merchants mentioned a few pages back here on this thread is a good place to start looking for both them Tung Sols. I suggest grabbing a NOS GTB though, the "NEW" GTB are prone to hum issues. Anyways.... welcome to the Darkvoice thread.. saw ya on the HifiGuides Forum asking the same question.


Yeah I don't know if I should be or not. I want the tubiest destored sound for classic rock and lofi. I have a my other setup for clean sound. I jsut want to see the other side of the spectrum for tubes


----------



## JKDJedi

kylebucksot said:


> Yeah I don't know if I should be or not. I want the tubiest destored sound for classic rock. I have a my other setup for clean sound. I jsut want to see the other side of the spectrum for tubes


RCA 6AS7G... is the tubiest. (grab early 50's if you can) the premium tubiest would be the GEC 6AS7G(not as loose as the RCA)..  the 7236 are clean and dynamic, their big brother 5998 are the same with a touch of tubeness, then....we have some really warm tubeness with just enough detail to grab your attention...the 6080.. all of them great to have.


----------



## kylebucksot

JKDJedi said:


> RCA 6AS7G... is the tubiest. (grab early 50's if you can) the premium tubiest would be the GEC 6AS7G(not as loose as the RCA)..  the 7236 are clean and dynamic, their big brother 5998 are the same with a touch of tubeness, then....we have some really warm tubeness with just enough detail to grab your attention...the 6080.. all of them great to have.


So power tube and preamp, which one has the biggest impact or should i be looking at replancing the 6sn7 as well?


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 Well I was taken aback when I opened the box... "oh....my" 😂😂😂


I think I have that same cord if it’s from Amazon. Good cord without breaking the bank but stiff as hell, 😂


----------



## JKDJedi

kylebucksot said:


> So power tube and preamp, which one has the biggest impact or should i be looking at replancing the 6sn7 as well?


yes both . most start off with the 6SN7.. and it's a game of mix and match, some mix well,some don't.. good luck!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask the same thing if he was set on the 7236, the 7236 has gone up to 5998 numbers... at least the last listing I saw on Ebay, $200 for a 7236!?.. I remember when @bcowen was telling us to grab as many as we could when they were $30! You might get lucky here at Headfi selling thread, guys like myself will sometimes post tubes there. Etsy and Ebay, and a few online merchants mentioned a few pages back here on this thread is a good place to start looking for both them Tung Sols. I suggest grabbing a NOS GTB though, the "NEW" GTB are prone to hum issues. Anyways.... welcome to the Darkvoice thread.. saw ya on the HifiGuides Forum asking the same question.



Actually they were $25.      Wish I'd bought 100 of them...they're doing better than my 401k.  LOL!  But those were actually Cetrons. Could have been made by Tung Sol for all I know though...


----------



## bcowen

kylebucksot said:


> Yeah I don't know if I should be or not. I want the tubiest destored sound for classic rock and lofi. I have a my other setup for clean sound. I jsut want to see the other side of the spectrum for tubes



If you're wanting tubey-ness, then the 7236 would be my last choice, personally.  I love the sound of it -- clean, fast, dynamic, but not what I'd describe as tubey sounding by any means.  I'd suggest a Mullard 6080 that gets more into tube-ness without being syrupy or bass blobby.


----------



## kylebucksot (Jan 8, 2021)

bcowen said:


> If you're wanting tubey-ness, then the 7236 would be my last choice, personally.  I love the sound of it -- clean, fast, dynamic, but not what I'd describe as tubey sounding by any means.  I'd suggest a Mullard 6080 that gets more into tube-ness without being syrupy or bass blobby.


Awesome thanks. I guess I should have stated that I am trying to push my 6xx to a big sound stage. I want to feel like im at a concert with them and have been reading that the right tubes can do just that.


----------



## JKDJedi

kylebucksot said:


> Awesome thanks. I guess I should have stated that I am trying to push my 6xx to a big sound stage. I want to feel like im at a concert with them and have been reading that the right tubes can do just that.


your at the right place... most of us here own the 6xx


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> your at the right place... most of us here own the 6xx



Yeah, but none of us can hear, so there's that...


----------



## kylebucksot

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but none of us can hear, so there's that...


mawp?


----------



## bcowen

kylebucksot said:


> Awesome thanks. I guess I should have stated that I am trying to push my 6xx to a big sound stage. I want to feel like im at a concert with them and have been reading that the right tubes can do just that.



You may find more influence in that area with the input tube than the power tube, although both have an influence.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask the same thing if he was set on the 7236, the 7236 has gone up to 5998 numbers... at least the last listing I saw on Ebay, $200 for a 7236!?.. I remember when @bcowen was telling us to grab as many as we could when they were $30! You might get lucky here at Headfi selling thread, guys like myself will sometimes post tubes there. Etsy and Ebay, and a few online merchants mentioned a few pages back here on this thread is a good place to start looking for both them Tung Sols. I suggest grabbing a NOS GTB though, the "NEW" GTB are prone to hum issues. Anyways.... welcome to the Darkvoice thread.. saw ya on the HifiGuides Forum asking the same question.


I can confirm the new production GTB Tung Sol has hum issues. This was the first tube I got a few days later after I bought my DV. Great tube for the price tbh but I had to let it sit ON for 2 days straight with the power tube out to make the hum go away. It's dead silent now


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna ask the same thing if he was set on the 7236, the 7236 has gone up to 5998 numbers... at least the last listing I saw on Ebay, $200 for a 7236!?.. I remember when @bcowen was telling us to grab as many as we could when they were $30!


What?! I remember buying several of them for $35 a pop last year. Backup of backups, heh. You know how that goes. Damn. That ham radio guy must have ran out of his stock. Supply, ain't it a bitch?


----------



## therremans

kylebucksot said:


> Awesome thanks. I guess I should have stated that I am trying to push my 6xx to a big sound stage. I want to feel like im at a concert with them and have been reading that the right tubes can do just that.


HD6XXs aren’t really known for having much of a soundstage. It’s a front + center kind of sound. What’s your budget? If you just want to get going, I think this certain RCA has a great vocal quality for the money. And here’s a low priced power tube. RCA 6SN7, Sylvania 6AS7G.

I have more suggestions but they’re 6J5Gs


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



Sweet!  I see the BAF's (big @ss feet) have arrived.  Look nice!  

But it also appears you're keeping secrets from us.  What is that philips-head screw on the side holding in place?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> But it also appears you're keeping secrets from us.  What is that philips-head screw on the side holding in place?


My money is on either 1.  He's starting to mount side fans inside for MORE airflow! or 2.  it's a screw to help secure some bracket holding some big @ss capacitors and stuff (flex capacitor level 1.21 jiggawatts type stuff)


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  I see the BAF's (big @ss feet) have arrived.  Look nice!
> 
> But it also appears you're keeping secrets from us.  What is that philips-head screw on the side holding in place?


They’re temporary supports for the interior component plate since one of my screws broke clean off with hardly any pressure.  It was awhile ago. There was some flex when inserting tubes. Now it’s solid. Once the amp is torn apart, i’m going to attempt to repair/replace the original threaded tube or I’ll just replace these side supports with something else.


----------



## kylebucksot

therremans said:


> HD6XXs aren’t really known for having much of a soundstage. It’s a front + center kind of sound. What’s your budget? If you just want to get going, I think this certain RCA has a great vocal quality for the money. And here’s a low priced power tube. RCA 6SN7, Sylvania 6AS7G.
> 
> I have more suggestions but they’re 6J5Gs


Perfect thanks for the recommendations. picked those up to start my journey.


----------



## therremans

kylebucksot said:


> Perfect thanks for the recommendations. picked those up to start my journey.


I also like these power tubes for the cost. Thomson 6080WA, it won't go as deep as that 6AS7G but will have a tighter low end and a much more transparent high end. More neutral than the RCA or Sylvania 6AS7G. It's the best 6080 for the money hands down. At these prices owning a few different power tubes could be a good idea.


----------



## bcowen

Today's roll.  These Hytron round plate 7A4's are surprising me...with the TS 5998, bass is just hammer-city.  And wide, wide, wide soundstage.

@kylebucksot -- I consistently get a wider soundstage with single triode tubes in the driver position compared to any dual triode tube. Not always deeper, but almost always wider. With these 7A4's, the sound is 6 feet outside the ear cups (estimated ).  Adapter(s) needed obviously. 6J5's and 6C5's use the same adapter...a different one is needed for 7A4's as they have a loctal base.  The neat thing with many of these single triodes is that even with the cost of an adapter factored in and the fact you need two tubes instead of one they can be had for less money than many of the top tier 6SN7's.


----------



## DeweyCH

A story of horror and relief in just two images:


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> A story of horror and relief in just two images:


But they were great in T.V.’s, lol!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> A story of horror and relief in just two images:



ROFL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> A story of horror and relief in just two images:


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Today's roll.  These Hytron round plate 7A4's are surprising me...with the TS 5998, bass is just hammer-city.  And wide, wide, wide soundstage.
> 
> @kylebucksot -- I consistently get a wider soundstage with single triode tubes in the driver position compared to any dual triode tube. Not always deeper, but almost always wider. With these 7A4's, the sound is 6 feet outside the ear cups (estimated ).  Adapter(s) needed obviously. 6J5's and 6C5's use the same adapter...a different one is needed for 7A4's as they have a loctal base.  The neat thing with many of these single triodes is that even with the cost of an adapter factored in and the fact you need two tubes instead of one they can be had for less money than many of the top tier 6SN7's.


7A4 are sweet. I'll have to try that 5998 pairing.


----------



## therremans

*Sylvania 7A4 (black plates) + Tung-Sol 5998*

High detail retrieval, tight low end, articulate soundstage, lacking some lower midrange and depth, the high end is warm, smooth and clean (vs. crisp and resolving). Vocals are a little shallow and one-dimensional. Pretty nice unique sounding tubes for the money. I don't know what I paid for the pair but I remember it being around $10.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Sylvania 7A4 (black plates) + Tung-Sol 5998*
> 
> High detail retrieval, tight low end, articulate soundstage, lacking some lower midrange and depth, the high end is warm, smooth and clean (vs. crisp and resolving). Vocals are a little shallow and one-dimensional. Pretty nice unique sounding tubes for the money. I don't know what I paid for the pair but I remember it being around $10.



I have several different brands of the 7A4's (Sylvania 7A4's and some VT-192 designated, Tung Sol, Hytron, and yes...even GE, although lacking dots so unlikely made by GE). All have round plates that look to be pretty much identical as far as size, shape, holes, welding, etc.  The plate color varies from shiny black to a matte black to a shiny dark brown. Some variances in the micas too -- some rectangular, some a 3/4 circle.  All are top getter, and with the flashing covering up the entire top of the bottle I'm unable to see the getter shape in any of them. It's possible that all these tubes were only made by couple manufacturers like the 7N7 that was (as best I can tell) made only by Sylvania and National Union, regardless of the external branding.

Love the bass and the 'staging with these regardless of the plate details. The Hytron branded ones have the shiny dark brown plates and have more extension and presence in the treble than the shiny black plate Sylvanias.  The Sylvania's treble is a bit _too_ polite and laid back for the HD-6XX's for my tastes, but could be a nice match with a 'phone where a little taming up top would be a welcome thing.


----------



## therremans

Tube of the Month : The 7A4


----------



## DeweyCH

Out of curiosity how do y’all store your tubes? I’ve got enough now that just putting them on a shelf ain’t cutting it


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Out of curiosity how do y’all store your tubes? I’ve got enough now that just putting them on a shelf ain’t cutting it


I use cases with pluck foam interior. I have a box just for  the brittle tube boxes so they don’t degrade from use.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Out of curiosity how do y’all store your tubes? I’ve got enough now that just putting them on a shelf ain’t cutting it


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Tube of the Month : The 7A4



You didn't _have_ to break one just so we could see the getter shape.


----------



## therremans

Hoarding with organizational skills, @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Out of curiosity how do y’all store your tubes? I’ve got enough now that just putting them on a shelf ain’t cutting it



Seriously, I use some low-height tubs that slide under the bed for the small tubes.  The big tubes (power pentodes, 300B's, 845's and such) are in 'bankers boxes' that stack neatly in the closet. Less convenient, but far less rolling going on with them.

https://www.amazon.com/Bankers-Box-...1&keywords=bankers+box&qid=1610300247&sr=8-20


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


>



What a great way to keep tube rolling interesting. Just jam your hand in the pile. You never know what you're going to get - hopefully not tetanus. I've been thinking about storing my iems in identical cases just for the same reason.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Seriously, I use some low-height tubs that slide under the bed for the small tubes.  The big tubes (power pentodes, 300B's, 845's and such) are in 'bankers boxes' that stack neatly in the closet. Less convenient, but far less rolling going on with them.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bankers-Box-...1&keywords=bankers+box&qid=1610300247&sr=8-20


Holy crap @bcowen!!! Can I be your friend? I’m right next door in SC...lol!


----------



## Galapac

Right now I’m using a couple of boot shoe boxes but will eventually outgrow that even.
I suspect my tube collection is worth more than all my amps combined right now which is an ugly truth.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Right now I’m using a couple of boot shoe boxes but will eventually outgrow that even.
> I suspect my tube collection is worth more than all my amps combined right now which is an ugly truth.



LOL!  It's when your tube collection becomes worth more than your house you realize you have an addiction expensive hobby.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  It's when your tube collection becomes worth more than your house you realize you have an addiction expensive hobby.


How do you explain to your home lender that you want to refinance your tubes?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

What if a single tube in your collection might be worth more than your car?  What do you call that?


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> What if a single tube in your collection might be worth more than your car?  What do you call that?



I'd call that time for a new car.


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> What if a single tube in your collection might be worth more than your car?  What do you call that?


Zero auto-transconductance?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> I'd call that time for a new car.



Never!  213K and going strong.  Car payment or tubes and tube accessories  having a nice car in Cleveland just ain't worth it.


----------



## wideload

L0rdGwyn said:


> Never!  213K and going strong.  Car payment or tubes and tube accessories  having a nice car in Cleveland just ain't worth it.


Drawing a breath in Cleveland just ain’t worth it! 😀 By the way, your football team is looking good tonight. Congratulations, and keep it up. 👍


----------



## L0rdGwyn

wideload said:


> Drawing a breath in Cleveland just ain’t worth it! 😀



I was referring to winter weather, but I see the low hanging fruit is still being readily plucked.  Very few people who makes these comments actually have been to or know anything about Cleveland.


----------



## Mr Trev

A guys got to watch out. If you end up spending too much money on tubes this could be the only headphones you can afford.


----------



## wideload

Got me! I have never lived outside California, but 4 years in SF for college was enough “big city” for me. Anywhere you’re happy is a beautiful place!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> A guys got to watch out. If you end up spending too much money on tubes this could be the only headphones you can afford.



ROFL!  Now if those _headphones_ are worth more than your car...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Seriously, I use some low-height tubs that slide under the bed for the small tubes.  The big tubes (power pentodes, 300B's, 845's and such) are in 'bankers boxes' that stack neatly in the closet. Less convenient, but far less rolling going on with them.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bankers-Box-...1&keywords=bankers+box&qid=1610300247&sr=8-20


The ninth wonder of the world.....tube-stine chapel...compared to....


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The ninth wonder of the world.....tube-stine chapel...compared to....



Sweet!  Now you just need another couple dozen of those boxes at the ready to accommodate the hoard stash that you WILL accumulate.  Resistance is futile. Except for me, of course...I'm not buying any more tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Now you just need another couple dozen of those boxes at the ready to accommodate the hoard stash that you WILL accumulate.  Resistance is futile. Except for me, of course...I'm not buying any more tubes.


Nature abhors a vacuum; I adore a vacuum (tube)...


----------



## therremans

Aucharm Hi-Fi 1A 5*20mm Audio Silver Alloy Gold plated cap fuse(Slow blow) I had great results with this cheap fuse on the Darkvoice. Try it out.


----------



## DeweyCH

What to roll today? Well, my ear is getting better, to the point where headphones feel less like a vise grip full of knives, and my first adapter has arrived (exciting!). So of these 3 options, what do y'all think I should try today?





Silvertone 6SN7GTA (ordered because of how much people like the Super Silvertone 6J5s)
RCA 6F8G
Raytheon 6F8G (I presume this will also allow me to wage war on unsuspecting neighbor countries)


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> What to roll today? Well, my ear is getting better, to the point where headphones feel less like a vise grip full of knives, and my first adapter has arrived (exciting!). So of these 3 options, what do y'all think I should try today?



Glad to hear your ear is doing better.  So the answer is yes, you should roll all 3.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Glad to hear your ear is doing better.  So the answer is yes, you should roll all 3.


Better, but I still can't wear headphones (or even a hat) for more than maybe 20 minutes at a time. I'm excited to start experimenting with adapters - this one and the dual-6J5 that's coming to me.


----------



## DeweyCH

Early indications on this RCA 6F8G are underwhelming. Seems a lot less bassy than the RCA 6SN7, TS 6SN7 and Shuguang. Almost tinny-sounding.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Early indications on this RCA 6F8G are underwhelming. Seems a lot less bassy than the RCA 6SN7, TS 6SN7 and Shuguang. Almost tinny-sounding.



I think the one 6F8G to have is the Tung Sol round plate version.  I have an RCA and an NU and both are well, kind of, um, not terrible.     Just my opinion, of course.  I believe @therremans has one of the Tung Sols...perhaps he'll chime in with his impressions of it.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Silvertone 6SN7GTA (ordered because of how much people like the Super Silvertone 6J5s)
> RCA 6F8G
> Raytheon 6F8G (I presume this will also allow me to wage war on unsuspecting neighbor countries)


Silvertone didn’t make tubes, most if not all 6J5Gs with their branding are made by National Union. Your Silvertone 6SN7GTA looks like a GE, does it have 188 on the base? The Raytheon 6F8G with an open square getter has a nice sparkle to the high end. I do think Tung-Sol are the best sounding 6F8Gs I’ve heard. Also the military version of these tubes is VT-99. The National Union is also a good performer. I’ve  owned RCA and Sylvania gray glass and let them both go.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Silvertone didn’t make tubes, most if not all 6J5Gs with their branding are made by National Union. Your Silvertone 6SN7GTA looks like a GE, does it have 188 on the base? The Raytheon 6F8G with an open square getter has a nice sparkle to the high end. I do think Tung-Sol are the best sounding 6F8Gs I’ve heard. Also the military version of these tubes is VT-99. The National Union is also a good performer. I’ve  owned RCA and Sylvania gray glass and let them both go.


Yeah, the base is imprinted with 2-22 / 188-5


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, the base is imprinted with 2-22 / 188-5


Week 22 of 1952, GE, 5 is probably the plant.

*Common USA EIA Codes*

Amperex (USA)111Bendix125DuMont158Eimac (Eitel-McCullough, Inc)162Electronic Tube Corp169General Electric Co (USA)188Hytron (CBS-Hytron)210Machlett231RCA (Radio Corp of America)274Raytheon280Superior Tube Co310Sylvania (Hygrade Sylvania Corp)312Tung-Sol322United Electronics323Western Electric336Westinghouse337Zenith Radio Corp (CRT's)343Nortn American Philips Corp423Taylor (aka Cetron-Taylor)713Lewis & Kaufman738National Electronics (also Cetron)749Penta Laboratories771Vacuum Tube Products781Varian Associates809Litton Industries879Electrons, Inc935


----------



## Mr Trev

Speaking of GE, the clutch blew apart on my GE washing machine this morning.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of GE, the clutch blew apart on my GE washing machine this morning.



New washing machine time.  That clutch will cost likely 60-70% of a new machine.  

My current house was 12 years old when we bought it several years ago with all GE appliances in the kitchen.  Within the first month after moving in, the built-in microwave quit. One of the burners on the glass-top range quit the very next day. A week later, the main element in the oven quit. Fast forward 2 weeks, and the control panel for the dishwasher started smoking....I mean, like smoke pouring out of it with that lovely acrid scent of BBQ'd electronics (similar to standard TX BBQ).  A week after that? Water all over the kitchen floor from the refrigerator -- it has an internal plastic tank to pre-chill the water that comes out of the dispenser in the door. Just cracked completely in half where the two halves joined (likely an ultrasonic weld that wasn't done right). Sounds hard to believe I know, but scout's honor. Fortunately we had a home warranty that was purchased/provided by the sellers, so it ended up costing me $200 (four $50 deductibles) to repair the 'fridge, repair the dishwasher, and totally replace the microwave and stove/range which the warranty company deemed cheaper to replace than repair. Guess what brand the new ones *aren't*? LOL! Funny part is that my brother-in-law has been a career GE guy (~35 years now I think). We have a great relationship, but that doesn't stop me from ragging on GE whenever I get the chance.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> New washing machine time.  That clutch will cost likely 60-70% of a new machine.
> 
> My current house was 12 years old when we bought it several years ago with all GE appliances in the kitchen.  Within the first month after moving in, the built-in microwave quit. One of the burners on the glass-top range quit the very next day. A week later, the main element in the oven quit. Fast forward 2 weeks, and the control panel for the dishwasher started smoking....I mean, like smoke pouring out of it with that lovely acrid scent of BBQ'd electronics (similar to standard TX BBQ).  A week after that? Water all over the kitchen floor from the refrigerator -- it has an internal plastic tank to pre-chill the water that comes out of the dispenser in the door. Just cracked completely in half where the two halves joined (likely an ultrasonic weld that wasn't done right). Sounds hard to believe I know, but scout's honor. Fortunately we had a home warranty that was purchased/provided by the sellers, so it ended up costing me $200 (four $50 deductibles) to repair the 'fridge, repair the dishwasher, and totally replace the microwave and stove/range which the warranty company deemed cheaper to replace than repair. Guess what brand the new ones *aren't*? LOL! Funny part is that my brother-in-law has been a career GE guy (~35 years now I think). We have a great relationship, but that doesn't stop me from ragging on GE whenever I get the chance.


Investor have already. GE was ejected from the Dow Jones Industrial Average in June 2018...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> New washing machine time.  That clutch will cost likely 60-70% of a new machine.
> 
> My current house was 12 years old when we bought it several years ago with all GE appliances in the kitchen.  Within the first month after moving in, the built-in microwave quit. One of the burners on the glass-top range quit the very next day. A week later, the main element in the oven quit. Fast forward 2 weeks, and the control panel for the dishwasher started smoking....I mean, like smoke pouring out of it with that lovely acrid scent of BBQ'd electronics (similar to standard TX BBQ).  A week after that? Water all over the kitchen floor from the refrigerator -- it has an internal plastic tank to pre-chill the water that comes out of the dispenser in the door. Just cracked completely in half where the two halves joined (likely an ultrasonic weld that wasn't done right). Sounds hard to believe I know, but scout's honor. Fortunately we had a home warranty that was purchased/provided by the sellers, so it ended up costing me $200 (four $50 deductibles) to repair the 'fridge, repair the dishwasher, and totally replace the microwave and stove/range which the warranty company deemed cheaper to replace than repair. Guess what brand the new ones *aren't*? LOL! Funny part is that my brother-in-law has been a career GE guy (~35 years now I think). We have a great relationship, but that doesn't stop me from ragging on GE whenever I get the chance.



Sounds right. The clutch/motor assembly was $498. The new machine - $699 on sale. Have to wait until Friday to get it however. I don't know what to do with the pile of soaking wet, soapy clothes until then…


----------



## Galapac

_🎶GE, we bring good things to life🎶_
It’s a shame what happened to that company, got too big and lost it’s way.


----------



## Galapac

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds right. The clutch/motor assembly was $498. The new machine - $699 on sale. Have to wait until Friday to get it however. I don't know what to do with the pile of soaking wet, soapy clothes until then…


Wring em out and dry em in the GE oven.


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds right. The clutch/motor assembly was $498. The new machine - $699 on sale. Have to wait until Friday to get it however. I don't know what to do with the pile of soaking wet, soapy clothes until then…


Hand wash and rinse in the bathtub.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds right. The clutch/motor assembly was $498. The new machine - $699 on sale. Have to wait until Friday to get it however. I don't know what to do with the pile of soaking wet, soapy clothes until then…



Well, you could always hang them up to air out.  Then you'd at least have dry soapy clothes.   Or as an alternative, they have these places around here called "laundromats."  Not sure exactly what's in them, but they appear to be related to clothes and I think they have a pretty upscale clientele.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds right. The clutch/motor assembly was $498. The new machine - $699 on sale. Have to wait until Friday to get it however. I don't know what to do with the pile of soaking wet, soapy clothes until then…



Yeah, my very first washing machine was a Maytag, and after 22 years the motor/clutch gave up in it.  At the time I could buy a similar machine for around $500, and the motor itself was almost $300 not including the labor to put it in.  I could have put it in myself but didn't want to because even back then I was lazy.


----------



## Mr Trev

The sucky thing is it isn't even cold enough for me to toss the clothes outside and let them freeze until I get the new machine. Thanks, global warming.

I really can't complain too much. The machine is probably pushing 20 yrs. too. Discontinued, so parts are scarce.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Wring em out and dry em in the GE oven.


Or really wring them out and lay them on a pair of Cary 211s...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Or really wring them out and lay them on a pair of Cary 211s...



LOL!  Cotton would probably be fine.  Kinda hate to see the mess that would likely be created with synthetic fabrics.  But at least it would be a clean mess.


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> Hand wash and rinse in the bathtub.


I’ve done that while traveling in other countries but had no softener...let’s just say there was a bit of chafing...😂


----------



## wideload

Mr Trev said:


> Thanks, global warming.
> 
> You blame global warming, yet advocate the use of tube amps???!!!??? Me, too! 😀


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Or really wring them out and lay them on a pair of Cary 211s...



If only I had a pair. The fumes from the detergent cooking out might make the whole experience worthwhile.😵


----------



## therremans

*Bendix 6080 (solid graphite) + Sylvania 6J5GT (gray plates)*

I’m really fond of their sound.. punchy, warm, tubey.. like analog tape, “house sound”. I like them with the 5998 for more high end and better dynamics or the Bendix for a more moving low end. Absolute killer pairing for any kind of electronic based music.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> *Bendix 6080 (solid graphite) + Sylvania 6J5GT (gray plates)*
> 
> I’m really fond of their sound.. punchy, warm, tubey.. like analog tape, “house sound”. I like them with the 5998 for more high end and better dynamics or the Bendix for a more moving low end. Absolute killer pairing for any kind of electronic based music.


Working from home? nice monitor.   Sick volume knob. Those 6J5 seem taller than the norm.. How they compare in size  to the other glass 6J5 you have?


----------



## SHIMACM

There are some pairings that I'm loving:

Melz 1578 and Chatham 6as7g.

RCA 6as7g and GEC L63.

Mullard 6080 and GEC L63.

GEC CV4079 and Sylvania vt231.

There are still many other combinations to try, but I haven't had the time yet.

I want to comment that I am impressed with the sound of the Melz 1578, now I understand why some people consider it as one of the best 6sn7.

How does TS BGRP compare to them?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Working from home? nice monitor.   Sick volume knob. Those 6J5 seem taller than the norm.. How they compare in size  to the other glass 6J5 you have?


Yes, it’s an LG ultra wide. One of my better investments. I’ve had it for about four years now. I’ll send you one of these knobs, it came in a two pack. I like the grip and it’s quite functional. My other knob was larger. I may go back to it and see which I prefer.

These are the same sized 6J5GTs. Maybe the photo made them look taller.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> These are the same sized 6J5GTs. Maybe the photo made them look taller.



Darn.  I was hoping you'd discovered a Franken5.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Darn.  I was hoping you'd discovered a Franken5.


Oh like this one?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh like this one?



LOL!  Yeah,_ just_ like that, only different.


----------



## therremans

My DACT type Chinese 21 stepped attenuator arrived today.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> My DACT type Chinese 21 stepped attenuator arrived today.


Would I be correct in thinking "it ain't supposed to look like that"


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> My DACT type Chinese 21 stepped attenuator arrived today.


It was replaced by a 21 stepped on attenuator?...


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Would I be correct in thinking "it ain't supposed to look like that"



The instructions clearly state "Some assembly required."  What, you aren't fluent in Chinese?  Sheeez.


----------



## therremans

Yes, it arrived this way. Something very heavy crushed it on its journey. But there wasn’t much protecting it. I’m going to try a different seller.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It was replaced by a 21 stepped on attenuator?...



LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, it arrived this way. Something very heavy crushed it on its journey. But there wasn’t much protecting it. I’m going to try a different seller.



Bummer.  I see it was packaged well.  Or an _un_reasonable facsimile thereof.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> There are some pairings that I'm loving:
> 
> Melz 1578 and Chatham 6as7g.
> 
> ...


Wow @SHIMACM ..very nice collection there.. you've come a long way from when you first joined us, very nice. Yup MElz can be considered as one of them on the mount Rushmore of 6SN7.


----------



## JKDJedi

Going old school l guys.. back tracking on the GE (RCA?) trip... everyting ont he outside of this tube screams RCA Radiotron the RC logo..but the inards look a lot like a GE.. anyways.. taking a memory stroll through one of my _beginnings_ of my 6sn7 tubes..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Going old school l guys.. back tracking on the GE (RCA?) trip... everyting ont he outside of this tube screams RCA Radiotron the RC logo..but the inards look a lot like a GE.. anyways.. taking a memory stroll through one of my _beginnings_ of my 6sn7 tubes..



Now you'll get to see how far _you've_ come.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Now you'll get to see how far _you've_ come.  LOL!!


L M F A O.. I was waiting.. *lol*..   you know..sometimes we need perspective..


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Now you'll get to see how far _you've_ come.  LOL!!



Unless of course you end up on the opposite side thinking, "why have I wasted all my time and money, when this is perfect?"


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Unless of course you end up on the opposite side thinking, "why have I wasted all my time and money, when this is perfect?"



ROFL!  Pretty good chance though that "GE" and "perfect" is not a thing.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Unless of course you end up on the opposite side thinking, "why have I wasted all my time and money, when this is perfect?"


well...it's not...and my ears say it's a GE.  😂😂.. I could only handle 2.5 tracks of it ... time to get real here.. doing the @therremans thing now .. 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

I've missed alot here on my "own" thread... jesus .. what ever happens to the notifications!?... playing catch-up so might be some off camber remarks coming...


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I was referring to winter weather, but I see the low hanging fruit is still being readily plucked.  Very few people who makes these comments actually have been to or know anything about Cleveland.


Pennsylvania for me.. all four seasons in full blown glory.. growing up as a kid SPRING FEVER was a thing!


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> What to roll today? Well, my ear is getting better, to the point where headphones feel less like a vise grip full of knives, and my first adapter has arrived (exciting!). So of these 3 options, what do y'all think I should try today?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RCA is king of that group.. enjoy.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 16, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Early indications on this RCA 6F8G are underwhelming. Seems a lot less bassy than the RCA 6SN7, TS 6SN7 and Shuguang. Almost tinny-sounding.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Wow @SHIMACM ..very nice collection there.. you've come a long way from when you first joined us, very nice. Yup MElz can be considered as one of them on the mount Rushmore of 6SN7.



I own Darkvoice for a year. I've learned a lot, and I still have a lot to learn. I'm glad I have the company of people like you!


----------



## DeweyCH

I have a confuse. I ordered a couple of GEC A2293 tubes (and an adapter) to play with, and one of them looks like this:





This was listed as NOS, and the seller has sold a ton of them (and after looking again at the eBay listing, the photo has the pins cut off...), so I suppose it's acceptable, but how? Am I supposed to solder new pins on or what?


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh, and also:






6SN7 --> 2x 6J5 adapter arrived from @Deyan and it's simply fantastic quality. Warming up these two metal RCA/JAN tubes to give it its first test! Then: two Super Silvertone 6J5 GT/Gs, and one Super Silvertone 6J5G.

Playtime! Also work... but just before I even start playing any music this combo (with my 5998) is dead silent.


----------



## DeweyCH

This is a sweet-sounding combination. Like... really, really nice. Among the tubes I've tried, this may be my favorite so far.

Best (thus far/subjectively): 5998 + 2x RCA 6J5
Close 2nd: 5998 + Shuguang CV181-Z
3rd: 5998 + NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GT
4th: 5998 + NOS RCA 6SN7

I like the RCA 6AS7 I have but the 5998 makes all my pre tubes sound better. Thus far I haven't really enjoyed a 6F8, but I only tested one (RCA 6F8G). I'll have to try out the Raytheon sometime.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 19, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I have a confuse. I ordered a couple of GEC A2293 tubes (and an adapter) to play with, and one of them looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> This was listed as NOS, and the seller has sold a ton of them (and after looking again at the eBay listing, the photo has the pins cut off...), so I suppose it's acceptable, but how? Am I supposed to solder new pins on or what?



The black piece at the bottom is a removable pin protector used on a lot of GEC and Mullard (and probably other) noval-base tubes to keep the pins from getting bent up during handling and transit.  Just pull it off.  

I bet if you look in the box for the other tube you'll find one in there too...it probably just slipped off.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The black piece at the bottom is a removable pin protector used on a lot of GEC and Mullard (and probably other) noval-base tubes to keep the pins from getting bent up during handling and transit.  Just pull it off.
> 
> I bet if you look in the box for the other tube you'll find one in there too...it probably just slipped off.


I'm a moron, Thank you.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The black piece at the bottom is a removable pin protector used on a lot of GEC and Mullard (and probably other) noval-base tubes to keep the pins from getting bent up during handling and transit.  Just pull it off.
> 
> I bet if you look in the box for the other tube you'll find one in there too...it probably just slipped off.


While I've got you here, any thoughts on GEC's A2293 vs. CV4079? The former looks to be older and is marked with "7242 Z" whereas the latter is marked with "8103 KB/Z"


----------



## DeweyCH

There's a very low hum in the right channel with the two Super Silvertones, but they're really immensely detailed. I think I like the metal RCAs better (they have more bass I think, a touch less detailed but more "tube-y" I guess). I'll see if these change at all with another half hour or so of warming up. I do seem to think the Silvertones have a wider soundstage, although that's certainly not lacking with the RCAs.

Separation is fabulous with both configurations.

EDIT: Should note that I'm listening on a pair of AKG K240 Sextetts (mid-production) with a SMSL SU-8 being fed by my PC running Amazon Music HD in exclusive mode.


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> While I've got you here, any thoughts on GEC's A2293 vs. CV4079? The former looks to be older and is marked with "7242 Z" whereas the latter is marked with "8103 KB/Z"



If I am not mistaken...the A2293 is commercial stamp where 7242 is usually the date code 42nd week of 1972 (October).  The CV4079 is military stamp where the KB denotes manufactured to a certain valve specification and certified by a UK authority.  Date code would presumably be third week of 1981 (Jan).    the Z simply indicates factory code (Hammersmith).


----------



## DeweyCH

Silvertones are growing on me... bass is present but not overwhelming and following Paul's bass line on "A Day In The Life" is really fun. RCAs bring out more of the low-register instruments that aren't Paul's bass - cellos, horns, etc. - but I could see someone preferring these Silvertones for their cleanliness and clarity.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> While I've got you here, any thoughts on GEC's A2293 vs. CV4079? The former looks to be older and is marked with "7242 Z" whereas the latter is marked with "8103 KB/Z"



What @Slade01 said.    

As far as I know the A2293 and the CV4079 are the same electrically.  Not a lot of info available out there on these...


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> What @Slade01 said.
> 
> As far as I know the A2293 and the CV4079 are the same electrically.  Not a lot of info available out there on these...



Ah yeah...sorry...my bad.  I didn't realize it was directed to you specifically.  lol.  I'm in the middle of work, and answering questions online and switching back and forth...this was kind of automatic without reading the context.  

All in all though, for what its worth...the military versions/markings are always a little bit cooler looking than the commercial ones.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Ah yeah...sorry...my bad.  I didn't realize it was directed to you specifically.  lol.  I'm in the middle of work, and answering questions online and switching back and forth...this was kind of automatic without reading the context.
> 
> All in all though, for what its worth...the military versions/markings are always a little bit cooler looking than the commercial ones.



Oh, certainly no problem. You have much more detailed info on these tubes than I have, so thanks for posting it.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Silvertones are growing on me... bass is present but not overwhelming and following Paul's bass line on "A Day In The Life" is really fun. RCAs bring out more of the low-register instruments that aren't Paul's bass - cellos, horns, etc. - but I could see someone preferring these Silvertones for their cleanliness and clarity.


RCA 6J5 tin cans are special. try to find a pair of SuperSilvertone 6L5.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> RCA 6J5 tin cans are special. try to find a pair of SuperSilvertone 6L5.


6L5? Do those fit the 6J5 sockets?


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> 6L5? Do those fit the 6J5 sockets?


yup.. sure do.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> yup.. sure do.


Neat. OK, set an eBay alert to see if any pop up. Meantime the Super Silvertone 6J5s are a nice distraction, but I'll probably end up defaulting to the RCAs. As you say, they're special.


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 19, 2021)

OK, this is strange. When I first ran the 5998/dual-RCAs it was dead silent. Now there's a buzzing hum in one of the tubes. It follows the tube (if I swap left/right in the adapter). I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. I did take the 5998 out and put it back in... any thoughts or recommendations?

Edit: if I turn off the power, I can actually hear it be dead silent again playing music while tubes cool down. Power tube issue? Reseat the 5998?


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 19, 2021)

Not the power tube. Swapped out for a Philips 6080 and the hum's still there.

Plopped my Shuguang back in instead of the 6J5 adapter and hum's gone (with 5998).


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Not the power tube. Swapped out for a Philips 6080 and the hum's still there.
> 
> Plopped my Shuguang back in instead of the 6J5 adapter and hum's gone (with 5998).


Let them simmer for a few hours,should go away. That or it's time for the Fitz Mod.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Not the power tube. Swapped out for a Philips 6080 and the hum's still there.
> 
> Plopped my Shuguang back in instead of the 6J5 adapter and hum's gone (with 5998).



When was the last time you cleaned your tube sockets?  Not only the two in the amp, but the sockets (and pins) in the dual adapter?


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> When was the last time you cleaned your tube sockets?  Not only the two in the amp, but the sockets (and pins) in the dual adapter?


Never have. Dual adapter arrived yesterday, but I've never cleaned any of my tube sockets. Would a bit of DeOxit do it, with the little fingernail brush it comes with?

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should probably be cleaning all the pins on my fancy new old-as-hell tubes, too.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Let them simmer for a few hours,should go away. That or it's time for the Fitz Mod.


More mods? Sweet. Needed an excuse to get in and swap the power switch.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Never have. Dual adapter arrived yesterday, but I've never cleaned any of my tube sockets. Would a bit of DeOxit do it, with the little fingernail brush it comes with?



Yes.  Get some pipe cleaners.  Perfect for octal sockets (and pins).  If you haven't done this before, my recommendation would be:

1) Turn the amp off while music is still playing (at a low volume).  Wait until it goes totally silent. This will help discharge the capacitors more quickly.  
2) Unplug the amp
3) Spray some Deoxit on the brush (or a pipe cleaner), insert into each socket hole, and rub up and down. Don't over-do it with the Deoxit (just get the brush or pipe cleaner good and damp, not dripping wet). And don't spray Deoxit directly into the socket.
4) Go around and do each socket hole, wait a minute or two, and then repeat. The Deoxit needs several minutes to penetrate and loosen up any crud.  The second step helps remove all the loosened crud.  Note that as your amp (and adapter) aren't old, this second step is optional as you're not dealing with corrosion or oxidation or baked on crud at this point.  Never hurts, but may not draw out any extra dirt for you currently.
5) I usually follow the Deoxit step by cleaning out any of the Deoxit residue with isopropyl alcohol (same process, just different liquid). Some people don't. A lot depends on which Deoxit you have.  If you have the little bottle with the 100% solution, I'd definitely clean out any excess with some alcohol. If you're using the spray can D5 (5% concentration), then the alcohol "rinse" is more a matter of personal preference.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Yes.  Get some pipe cleaners.  Perfect for octal sockets (and pins).  If you haven't done this before, my recommendation would be:
> 
> 1) Turn the amp off while music is still playing (at a low volume).  Wait until it goes totally silent. This will help discharge the capacitors more quickly.
> 2) Unplug the amp
> ...


Very well explained thank you. Done and done, will give them a listen later


----------



## DeweyCH

DeOxit didn't help. Letting them simmer and have some Nichicon 220uF caps on the way to Fitz this bitz.


----------



## Deyan

Okay I'm involved as well. Since the hum is following the tube isn't the issue obvious. Why don't you try cleaning the pins of said tube.


----------



## DeweyCH

Deyan said:


> Okay I'm involved as well. Since the hum is following the tube isn't the issue obvious. Why don't you try cleaning the pins of said tube.


I did.


----------



## Deyan

Is this happening with all tubes used in the adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> DeOxit didn't help. Letting them simmer and have some Nichicon 220uF caps on the way to Fitz this bitz.


If the problem is just happening with that tube...then....it's probably the tube.. let her simmer over night might help. Fitz Mod is super easy... your not replacing stuff just adding... kinda wish I knew that before trying the led mod ..  🙂


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> Is this happening with all tubes used in the adapter?


No, just with one of the Silvertone tubes he got.. kinda of cool his adapter arrived with pins soldered. Nice job.


----------



## Deyan

JKDJedi said:


> No, just with one of the Silvertone tubes he got.. kinda of cool his adapter arrived with pins soldered. Nice job.



Very funny 😑


----------



## Deyan

Reheating the the pins of the tube might help. I do dismantle defective tubes and always the leads coming from the tube are in terrible condition. The copper isn't very pure and they are slightly magnetic so almost every time they have rust on them.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> Very funny 😑


😂😂 we're a tight group here... I'll just leave it at that .


----------



## DeweyCH

Deyan said:


> Is this happening with all tubes used in the adapter?


No, I’m pretty sure it’s just one of the RCA tubes. I don’t think it’s the adapter. The adapter is fantastic. I think it’s just the whole DV buzzing on new (well, new old) tubes. I’ve been meaning to do the Fitz mod anyways, so if a proper burn in doesn’t help I’ll probably do it Thursday.


----------



## therremans (Jan 20, 2021)

The CBS Hytron 5692 brown base does not disappoint.
 
Instrument separation and soundstage is excellent, vocals are pretty lifelike and lush, articulates detail in the high end especially well. I understand the hype now.


----------



## DeweyCH

Got a pair of Mullard 6080s on the way and went ahead and ordered a Bottlehead Crack kit. I’m enjoying all this. Seriously thinking about starting a storefront where I sell modded DVs. Love me some tinkering.


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 20, 2021)

Overnight burn-in did the trick, they're wicked quiet now with no hum. And for some more fun, there was a Svetlana Winged C in my mailbox this morning. Good-sounding power tube.








Now I just have to ration my tinkering time. Fitz mod + Carling switch for the DV vs. finishing putting new speaker relays in my Luxman.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Overnight burn-in did the trick, they're wicked quiet now with no hum. And for some more fun, there was a Svetlana Winged C in my mailbox this morning. Good-sounding power tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well now that we have a bigger picture, the problem is blatantly obvious. Get that GE box well away from the amp. Preferably in another room. Or the fireplace. The landfill would be even better if possible.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> The CBS Hytron 5692 brown base does not disappoint.
> 
> Instrument separation and soundstage is excellent, vocals are pretty lifelike and lush, articulates detail in the high end especially well. I understand the hype now.


How's this place in your "favorite 6NS7-types" list?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Well now that we have a bigger picture, the problem is blatantly obvious. Get that GE box well away from the amp. Preferably in another room. Or the fireplace. The landfill would be even better if possible.


That GE tube box did yeoman's work bringing me a Tung-Sol tube. It has earned my respect. Or at least a chance to sit on a table.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> How's this place in your "favorite 6NS7-types" list?


It's one of them quiet favorites among us all, and going for fair prices right now..


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> It's one of them quiet favorites among us all, and going for fair prices right now..


Fair price being... $125+shipping (looking at 'Bay prices)? And how do you feel it compares to the dual-RCA 6J5s?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Fair price being... $125+shipping (looking at 'Bay prices)?



LOL!  Glad I stashed up on them 20 years ago.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Glad I stashed up on them 20 years ago.


This is the problem with getting heavier into audio in the late 201Xs. I hear these stories... "Oh yeah, a Luxman R-117? I got one for twenty bucks back in 2004," "Oh, Tung-Sol 5998 tubes? Yeah I bought a whole crate of 'em for a hundo from some dude who used to run a repair shop back in 2006."

Best I can muster is "Oh, an AKG K240 Sextett? Yeah, I got that for free from my uncle and fixed it up."


----------



## therremans (Jan 20, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> How's this place in your "favorite 6NS7-types" list?


I have heard less 6SN7 tubes than others have here. But I can recommend this one and a few others Ive kept. I sold off ones that didn’t really impress me or offer some unique character.. among the favorite 6SN7s, in no particular order:

Favorites:
Ken-Rad VT-231
Early 1950’s Foton (1953) ribbed plates
CBS 5692

Runner ups:
Dumont (RCA) VT-231? Not sure, clear glass
National Union, gray or black glass

To be positive.. if you can be patient good prices *well* below market prices can still happen. Maybe not on that level of finding a box of gold for pennies as most people have the internet.. But I only paid $30 for my CBS 5692 and it came to me in the original box with vintage cloth wrap. I think it may be NOS. I took a chance because the seller inherited some and couldn’t test them but offered 30 day returns. My 5998 same kind of situation but I had to wait months on that one.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I have heard less 6SN7 tubes than others have here. But I can recommend this one and a few others Ive kept. I sold off ones that didn’t really impress me or offer some unique character.. among the favorite 6SN7s, in no particular order:
> 
> Favorites:
> Ken-Rad VT-231
> ...


Fotons seem to be wicked cheap... am I avoiding Russian-made or something?


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Fair price being... $125+shipping (looking at 'Bay prices)? And how do you feel it compares to the dual-RCA 6J5s?


Very different. The 5692 has a pure hifi sound, accurate and articulate. To quote myself from a previous post on the RCA VT-94:  “There’s a unique sort of old sound with them, also they’re metal.. warm and wooly, vocals rolled back, kind of an odd exaggerated upper mid-range hump. The 5998 wakes them up a bit. They may sound nice with jazz, blues, lots of older rock ie: The Beatles.. they may surprise you (or disappoint you).”


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Fair price being... $125+shipping (looking at 'Bay prices)? And how do you feel it compares to the dual-RCA 6J5s?


they're out there for $65 delivered... two weeks ago.  gotta search and rescue these guys


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Fotons seem to be wicked cheap... am I avoiding Russian-made or something?



The pre-1957 ribbed plate 6N8S's are the best, and they are becoming harder to find. Still cheap (comparatively), just nowhere near the number of Ebay ads there were even a year ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I have heard less 6SN7 tubes than others have here. But I can recommend this one and a few others Ive kept. I sold off ones that didn’t really impress me or offer some unique character.. among the favorite 6SN7s, in no particular order:
> 
> Favorites:
> Ken-Rad VT-231
> ...


Sign Of The Times ... @bcowen might sell you one of his 100 5692 he has stashed away. .😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Sign Of The Times ... @bcowen might sell you one of his 100 5692 he has stashed away. .😁



Then I would only have 99.  As we all know, 100 is the safety stash minimum.  Sheeez.  I thought you'd been around here long enough to know that.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Then I would only have 99.  As we all know, 100 is the safety stash minimum.  Sheeez.  I thought you'd been around here long enough to know that.


😂😂 100!it is then ... well , crap... 99 more bottles of ... we go.. 😂😂


----------



## SHIMACM

Is that the Foton to buy?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-VINTAGE...685326?hash=item4681e0838e:g:CscAAOSwcVtbYLOi


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 20, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> Is that the Foton to buy?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-VINTAGE...685326?hash=item4681e0838e:g:CscAAOSwcVtbYLOi


yes left is 57' right 51' great tubes, looking for the link that'll get you two 53' for $30


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> yes left is 57' right 51' great tubes, looking for the link that'll get you two 53' for $30



Send it to me there. LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Send it to me there. LOL


I'm sorry, I can't find the seller maybe you'll have better luck.. it's *serdu_27*


----------



## therremans

Foton matched pair ribbed plates $16 obo, https://www.ebay.com/itm/274572956686


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Foton matched pair ribbed plates $16 obo, https://www.ebay.com/itm/274572956686



You just can't tell the year of manufacture.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sorry, I can't find the seller maybe you'll have better luck.. it's *serdu_27*



He has no more to sell.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> He has no more to sell.





SHIMACM said:


> You just can't tell the year of manufacture.





SHIMACM said:


> He has no more to sell.


 I'm sorry, @therremans and @bcowen probably grabbed the last of them...😒
well, you have two links there to grab from, both good. the 2nd link gives you 2 tubes that are ribbed for her pleasure, the first link gives you a nice 1951... tough one ..


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sorry, @therremans and @bcowen probably grabbed the last of them...😒
> well, you have two links there to grab from, both good. the 2nd link gives you 2 tubes that are ribbed for her pleasure, the first link gives you a nice 1951... tough one ..



Which one will you go to?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 20, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> Which one will you go to?


the two ribbed look like 55' and might need some resoldering, if I didn't have some on hand already I'd grab both. make them an offer.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> the two ribbed look like 55' and might need some resoldering, if I didn't have some on hand already I'd grab both. make them an offer.



The problem is that in the ad he says that the tubes to be sent may be different from the ones in the photos.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> The problem is that in the ad he says that the tubes to be sent may be different from the ones in the photos.


Yes but will be ribbed. I wrote him to confirm which years he has left and will come back to the thread if they are still available.

I could be wrong but if it has ribbed plates, doesn’t that mean they’re pre 1957? @bcowen told me this info but I forget exactly. I think 56’ was the last year with those plates. However i’m not sure if they came back in the 60s at any point.


----------



## therremans

_“The difference between the '57 - '59 smooth plates and the '51 - '55 ribbed plates is not huge. If you can get the ribbed plate versions then do, but if you can get a good price on anything made in the '50's then it's worthwhile. But things went to hell in a handbasket in 1960...I have several early 1960's dates and they are quite noticeably inferior to the 1950's production so stay away from those.”_


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> _“The difference between the '57 - '59 smooth plates and the '51 - '55 ribbed plates is not huge. If you can get the ribbed plate versions then do, but if you can get a good price on anything made in the '50's then it's worthwhile. But things went to hell in a handbasket in 1960...I have several early 1960's dates and they are quite noticeably inferior to the 1950's production so stay away from those.”_



I pulled the trigger.


----------



## DeweyCH

I ordered a Feb. '52 one that measures at NOS.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> The problem is that in the ad he says that the tubes to be sent may be different from the ones in the photos.


yeah, then.. for sure a no go. . .


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes but will be ribbed. I wrote him to confirm which years he has left and will come back to the thread if they are still available.
> 
> I could be wrong but if it has ribbed plates, doesn’t that mean they’re pre 1957? @bcowen told me this info but I forget exactly. I think 56’ was the last year with those plates. However i’m not sure if they came back in the 60s at any point.


one of the pics you can just see a 5 next to the visalble 5.. and good point there... text the guy and ask him about it.. they're usually good at responding.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> yeah, then.. for sure a no go. . .


Should be fine, the seller had a lot of 12 I think, so he didn’t photograph each but the listing states ribbed plates.


----------



## SHIMACM

I bought. There is still a pair left for those who want to enjoy it. Thanks for the tip.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Ribbed-Anode-Foton-6N8S-Matched-PAIR-6H8C-6SN7GT-USSR-Double-Triode-Tubes/274572956686?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, buying more tube amps apparently makes you buy more eBay tubes. Shocker. So now I've got the DV, a Liquid Platinum and an order in for a Crack w/Speedball. DV has, like... all of the tubes.

6SN7 variants: RCA, Shuguang, Silvertone, 2x Tung-Sol (NOS), 1x Tung-Sol (new Russian crap), 1x Foton '52 (just ordered)
6J5 variants: RCA (4x), Super Silvertone (3x)
6F8G: RCA, Raytheon
6080/6AS7 variants: (2x) Mullard 6080 (shipping now), TS 5998, RCA 6AS7, Svetlana Winged "C", Philips 6080 (non-Mullard), Westinghouse 6080
ECC82/12AU7: Mullard NOS, Raytheon/Baldwin (2x) (for the Crack)
A2293: GEC A2293/CV4079 (3x) (for the DV and the Crack)
ECC88: Amperex Bugle Boy (2x), whatever was included with the Liquid Platinum (can't recall at the moment)

Halp.


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> I bought. There is still a pair left for those who want to enjoy it. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Ribbed-Anode-Foton-6N8S-Matched-PAIR-6H8C-6SN7GT-USSR-Double-Triode-Tubes/274572956686?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


Fine, that's sixteen bucks I didn't need anyways.


----------



## DeweyCH

Is this a reasonable deal for a CBS brown-base 5692?


----------



## SHIMACM (Jan 20, 2021)

[QUOTE = "DeweyCH, postagem: 16119659, membro: 535518"]
OK, comprar mais amplificadores valvulados aparentemente faz com que você compre mais válvulas eBay. Chocante. Agora eu tenho o DV, um Liquid Platinum e um pedido de Crack com Speedball. DV tem, tipo ... todos os tubos.

Variantes 6SN7: RCA, Shuguang, Silvertone, 2x Tung-Sol (NOS), 1x Tung-Sol (nova porcaria russa), 1x Foton '52 (recém-encomendado)
Variantes 6J5: RCA (4x), Super Silvertone (3x)
6F8G: RCA, Raytheon
Variantes 6080 / 6AS7: (2x) Mullard 6080 (envio agora), TS 5998, RCA 6AS7, Svetlana Winged "C", Philips 6080 (não Mullard), Westinghouse 6080
ECC82 / 12AU7: Mullard NOS, Raytheon / Baldwin (2x) (para o crack)
A2293: GEC A2293 / CV4079 (3x) (para DV e Crack)
ECC88: Amperex Bugle Boy (2x), o que quer que tenha sido incluído no Liquid Platinum (não consigo lembrar no momento)

Halp.
[/CITAR]


My collection so far.

GEC CV4079 (x8)
Chatham 6as7g
Mullard 6080
Sylvania GB 6080
Tung-sun 6080
RCA JAN 6as7g

Melz 1578
RCA vt231
Raytheon Vt231
Kenrad vt231
Sylvania vt231
Sylvania 6j5gt (x2)
GEC L63 (x2)
Foton (x2)

Already sold

Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB
GE 6as7ga
Sylvania 6sn7wgt
Tung-sol 5998
Svetlana 6as7g


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "DeweyCH, postagem: 16119659, membro: 535518"]
> OK, comprar mais amplificadores valvulados aparentemente faz com que você compre mais válvulas eBay. Chocante. Agora eu tenho o DV, um Liquid Platinum e um pedido de Crack com Speedball. DV tem, tipo ... todos os tubos.
> 
> Variantes 6SN7: RCA, Shuguang, Silvertone, 2x Tung-Sol (NOS), 1x Tung-Sol (nova porcaria russa), 1x Foton '52 (recém-encomendado)
> ...


Er... if you're going to change up the language, could we do Japanese or Romanian?


----------



## SHIMACM

DeweyCH said:


> Er... if you're going to change up the language, could we do Japanese or Romanian?



Excuse me. Error here. I speak Portuguese. There are times when I get involved with the translator. LOL.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Fine, that's sixteen bucks I didn't need anyways.


LOL!!


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> Excuse me. Error here. I speak Portuguese. There are times when I get involved with the translator. LOL.


No worries, haha. I figured. This is a global obsession.


----------



## DeweyCH

I retract anything I said about the RCA 6F8G being disappointing. I think I forgot to put my music streaming platform on Exclusive Mode when I listened to it before. It's really, really great sounding.






A bit of hum (damn you non-Fitz-modded DV, I'll get you for this), which should burn off reasonably soon. But my recent go-to album (Beatles 1967-1970) is just SCREAMING. Listening to Revolution, and John's heavily distorted riffs in my right ear and Ringo's really aggressive use of toms+kick in my left are something to experience.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I retract anything I said about the RCA 6F8G being disappointing. I think I forgot to put my music streaming platform on Exclusive Mode when I listened to it before. It's really, really great sounding.
> 
> 
> 
> A bit of hum (damn you non-Fitz-modded DV, I'll get you for this), which should burn off reasonably soon. But my recent go-to album (Beatles 1967-1970) is just SCREAMING. Listening to Revolution, and John's heavily distorted riffs in my right ear and Ringo's really aggressive use of toms+kick in my left are something to experience.


Interesting how the 6sn7 grey glass versions suck ass when compared to the rest of their line up.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Interesting how the 6sn7 grey glass versions suck ass when compared to the rest of their line up.


Only 6SN7 of theirs I have is a clear glass one. It sounds very nice. But this thing sounds better.


----------



## DeweyCH

BTW, if I want to continue going nutso on modding this beast, what would be y'all's recommendation? Caps? Sockets? Something else entirely? (I'll be doing the power switch and Fitz mod this weekend, and already have done the pot, shunt mod, and pre-out disconnection)


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> BTW, if I want to continue going nutso on modding this beast, what would be y'all's recommendation? Caps? Sockets? Something else entirely? (I'll be doing the power switch and Fitz mod this weekend, and already have done the pot, shunt mod, and pre-out disconnection)


resistors and them kidney caps that boost the bass a little.. @therremans Mod..


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> resistors and them kidney caps that boost the bass a little.. @therremans Mod..


Good call. Oh, probably should do the LED mod too?


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Good call. Oh, probably should do the LED mod too?


NO!! Fitz Mod Cuisine Remains Supreme


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Good call. Oh, probably should do the LED mod too?


It really depends on the LEDs. I’m happy with how my amp sounds now using 220uf (25V) caps and don’t want to go back but I do have a new pair of LEDs if I want to try them again. I sent a pair of these same red LEDs I’ve used to @bcowen to try out one day if he wants to give us his impressions. HLMP-1600 Broadcom / Avago Red Diffused

I’d order two of these sockets now, Belton octal with lugs and install them when you do the following upgrades. Many different websites sell them and they’re even on eBay. Much much better than those white ceramic Chinese sockets or anything else you’ll find. You’ll love them.



I’d then start by what Jedi said, install ALL new resistors that come off the 6SN7 socket. 1k x2, 1M x2, 30k x2 You’ll notice the best bang for buck improvement here. It would be smart to install the 220uf caps at this time. As for resistors, I recommend the Vishay metal films that you’ll find on mouser. You’ve seen me post about these. I have some fancy carbons to install but it may be another month or two before I tear the amp down to rebuild it and put those in.

Then swap out the 10W wire wounds in the back and add the small bypass caps to the power caps. Then if you really want to get into the amp.. replace the orange drop output caps with other film caps that fit.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> It really depends on the LEDs. I’m happy with how my amp sounds now using 220uf (25V) caps and don’t want to go back but I do have a new pair of LEDs if I want to try them again. I sent a pair of these same red LEDs I’ve used to @bcowen to try out one day if he wants to give us his impressions. HLMP-1600 Broadcom / Avago Red Diffused
> 
> I’d order two of these sockets now, Belton octal with lugs and install them when you do the following upgrades. Many different websites sell them and they’re even on eBay. Much much better than those white ceramic Chinese sockets or anything else you’ll find. You’ll love them.
> 
> ...


This is quite the fun project. Ordered two of the sockets. I’ll order some resistors as well. Much appreciated to all of you!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It really depends on the LEDs. I’m happy with how my amp sounds now using 220uf (25V) caps and don’t want to go back but I do have a new pair of LEDs if I want to try them again. I sent a pair of these same red LEDs I’ve used to @bcowen to try out one day if he wants to give us his impressions. HLMP-1600 Broadcom / Avago Red Diffused
> 
> I’d order two of these sockets now, Belton octal with lugs and install them when you do the following upgrades. Many different websites sell them and they’re even on eBay. Much much better than those white ceramic Chinese sockets or anything else you’ll find. You’ll love them.
> 
> ...


@therremans modded one of my adapters with these sockets...can't wait to get them!! but... he's been shy to share his... @bcowen did a fantastic job with his mod.


----------



## bcowen

Just in general on the Foton 6N8S (which you may also see as 6H8C -- same tube, different alphabet): 

-- Years 1951 through 1955 have ribbed plates
-- Some 1956 have ribbed plates, some do not. It would appear the plate forming was changed sometime during 1956.
-- Some 1956 and then years 1957 - 1959 have smooth plates
-- There may be years earlier than 1951, although I have not ever seen one to date.
-- Starting with 1960 and after, spend your money elsewhere. Huge difference, and not for the better.
-- The 1950's ribbed plates sound a bit better than the 1950's smooth plates, but it's not a huge difference. Get the ribbed plates if you can (at a decent price), but personally if I had a choice of a ribbed plate for $50 and a smooth plate for $15, I'd get the smooth plate. Or maybe put more succinctly, the ribbed plates are worth a little premium, but not a huge one.
-- Many of these may need to have the pins resoldered. I've had a good many that were fine out of the box, and also a good many that were either noisy or had low GM in one triode until the pins were resoldered. Out of all the Fotons I've purchased, I've only had two that were truly bad and unfixable with resoldering....pretty amazing really with the hoard collection I have of these tubes that are now 60+ years old. Almost makes me feel young.   
-- Whether the pins are resoldered or not, if they are truly NOS (meaning never used) they will benefit quite audibly with 15 - 20 hours of break-in time.  Initially they can be a little thin sounding, lack dynamics, and lack extension in the bass. But after they get some break-in play time, they are ready to show their stuff.  Whether you like the stuff or not is of course entirely dependent on your preferences and ancillary equipment.


----------



## therremans

@HeatFan12


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> @therremans modded one of my adapters with these sockets...can't wait to get them!! but... he's been shy to share his... @bcowen did a fantastic job with his mod.



Here's the 6J5 adapter. I really like these sockets with the full ceramic body and direct gold plate-on-copper contact pins. I had originally intended the support brackets to go inside the box, but the sockets were just too tall and I didn't want stuff crammed in there. Had to "patina" the copper plate on top to match the Incubus.  The Darkvoice wasn't amused.    






Next is the 7A4 adapter. Just got delivery on the Cinch sockets in for it...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Here's the 6J5 adapter. I really like these sockets with the full ceramic body and direct gold plate-on-copper contact pins. I had originally intended the support brackets to go inside the box, but the sockets were just too tall and I didn't want stuff crammed in there. Had to "patina" the copper plate on top to match the Incubus.  The Darkvoice wasn't amused.
> 
> 
> 
> Next is the 7A4 adapter. Just got delivery on the Cinch sockets in for it...



I kinda like the look of the brackets on the outside. You just need to "patina" the ceramic too.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I kinda like the look of the brackets on the outside. You just need to "patina" the ceramic too.



ROFL!  I figured I'd let them corrode naturally.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> This one was done by @Absoltuion .  The green text is the components spec voltage, and the yellow is his measured voltage (and red text for resistors).


Can anyone point me at a good option for replacing those 250v worth of caps on either side? Can I go over that, because I’ve got my eye on some Nichicon 100v caps


----------



## therremans (Jan 21, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Can anyone point me at a good option for replacing those 250v worth of caps on either side? Can I go over that, because I’ve got my eye on some Nichicon 100v caps


Yes you can go over but 100V is under? Not following you.
Darkvoice Project - Parts List


----------



## DeweyCH (Jan 21, 2021)

therremans said:


> Yes you can go over but 100V is under? Not following you.
> Darkvoice Project - Parts List
> 
> Vishay / BC Components 220uF 400V


Correct me if I’m reading that pic wrong but the three individual caps on either side - the orange ones - need to add up to 250v, no? That was my assumption since all of them measured at 74v individually?

also thanks for the list


----------



## therremans

Ah the output caps. I believe it’s saying they are rated at 250V each but were tested to be receiving only 74V. If that’s true, 100V is cutting it pretty close and I would try to get at least 150V.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 21, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Correct me if I’m reading that pic wrong but the three individual caps on either side - the orange ones - need to add up to 250v, no? That was my assumption since all of them measured at 74v individually?
> 
> also thanks for the list



You can't add the voltage ratings like that. The 74v is what he measured at each cap at that point in time with whatever his incoming AC voltage was at the time (may have been 115v, may have been 120v....don't know), and with the amp presumably at idle (no signal). That voltage is _per cap_, and the voltage seen by those caps could go much higher depending on incoming voltage and music signal demands.  If it were me, I'd use the same voltage rating the manufacturer used at 250v.  Possibly 200v, but I (personally) wouldn't go any lower than that.  Maybe overkill, may also keep the amp from being killed.  Or worse, your headphones. Part of the function of those output caps is to prevent any DC voltage from appearing at the output (the headphone jack). Failure of those caps could allow a DC voltage to pass through to the output, and could (depending on the headphones) end up killing them too.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Ah the output caps. I believe it’s saying they are rated at 250V each but were tested to be receiving only 74V. If that’s true, 100V is cutting it pretty close and I would try to get at least 150V.


I ended up with some 250v film caps


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I ended up with some 250v film caps



Excellent!  What did you get?  It's been difficult finding caps with at least the same (and preferably higher) uF values to fit in there...


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Excellent!  What did you get?  It's been difficult finding caps with at least the same (and preferably higher) uF values to fit in there...


I got these - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/nichicon/qxk2e106ktp/


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I got these - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/nichicon/qxk2e106ktp/



LOL!  That's a lot to look through.  Any more specific link, perhaps?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> LOL!  That's a lot to look through.  Any more specific link, perhaps?


Oh, crap, that was supposed to be to the product itself... try https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai.../xwYrJAFrBA==&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD

I cut all the stuff at the end of the URL off (?qs=etcetcetc) because that's typically just traffic source tracking, but I guess not.


----------



## therremans

My output caps are rated at 160V. No issues. I should measure their voltage and see what they are seeing.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, crap, that was supposed to be to the product itself... try https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/nichicon/qxk2e106ktp/?qs=Dgr3QhzC8eR/xwYrJAFrBA==&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD
> 
> I cut all the stuff at the end of the URL off (?qs=etcetcetc) because that's typically just traffic source tracking, but I guess not.



Ugh....those are polyester. A good polypropylene will sound much better.  You may find the sound is actually _degraded_ substituting the stock caps with those.

The ones @therremans is using are below.  Bigger and more expensive, but polypropylene films in a coupling cap application are a much better way to go than polyester films.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Roederstein/MKP1839610164/?qs=ZC%2BWKP10IGdjOGlXlrNkxA==


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Ugh....those are polyester. A good polypropylene will sound much better.  You may find the sound is actually _degraded_ substituting the stock caps with those.
> 
> The ones @therremans is using are below.  Bigger and more expensive, but polypropylene films in a coupling cap application are a much better way to go than polyester films.
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Roederstein/MKP1839610164/?qs=ZC%2BWKP10IGdjOGlXlrNkxA==


OK, thank you for that. I'll change up my order with those. I thought that might be the case, but had trouble navigating Mouser's inventory.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Ugh....those are polyester. A good polypropylene will sound much better.  You may find the sound is actually _degraded_ substituting the stock caps with those.
> 
> The ones @therremans is using are below.  Bigger and more expensive, but polypropylene films in a coupling cap application are a much better way to go than polyester films.
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Roederstein/MKP1839610164/?qs=ZC%2BWKP10IGdjOGlXlrNkxA==



Good lord man! You're rolling dielectric materials now?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Good lord man! You're rolling dielectric materials now?



Huh?  You mean you _haven't_ rolled caps? Oh my goodness. Time to find a place in the backyard for a new rabbit hole.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Huh?  You mean you _haven't_ rolled caps? Oh my goodness. Time to find a place in the backyard for a new rabbit hole.



My impression is the best sounding cap is a bypassed one. DC be damned


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> My impression is the best sounding cap is a bypassed one. DC be damned



The best sounding cap is no cap.  But I totally agree on the DC be damned part, especially the one just north of Virginia.  LOL!


----------



## DeweyCH

Dag yo, a hundred and twenty bucks for six caps. Hope it's worth it.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Dag yo, a hundred and twenty bucks for six caps. Hope it's worth it.



Only @therremans can answer that as he's the only one here that's done it so far.  I'm going a different route with a pair of BAM's (Big A$$ Mundorfs) but haven't put them in yet. Don't even know for sure if they'll fit, but I'm optimistic.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Only @therremans can answer that as he's the only one here that's done it so far.  I'm going a different route with a pair of BAM's (Big A$$ Mundorfs) but haven't put them in yet. Don't even know for sure if they'll fit, but I'm optimistic.


Nice. I was ready to accept spending more on tubes than I did on the amp, but I'm approaching spending more on electronic upgrades than I did on the amp, and it's... kinda funny, I guess.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> If the problem is just happening with that tube...then....it's probably the tube.. let her simmer over night might help. Fitz Mod is super easy... your not replacing stuff just adding... kinda wish I knew that before trying the led mod ..  🙂


I’m curious why you don’t like the led mod


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Nice. I was ready to accept spending more on tubes than I did on the amp, but I'm approaching spending more on electronic upgrades than I did on the amp, and it's... kinda funny, I guess.


Yeah, I’m probably there too. Down to the wire itself, the only thing that will be original on mine is the chassis, transformer, output + power caps PCB. Someone could really argue against it being logical and just invest in a better amp. (But I also don’t care.) It’s a lot of fun for me and has given me the confidence to build an amp myself one day.



DeweyCH said:


> I’m curious why you don’t like the led mod


Not trying to speak for Tony here but I believe he had installed the 220uf bypass caps while also swapping all of the 6SN7 resistors at the same time. So, it’s hard to really answer the question of why or the specific differences in the LED biasing alone. He was happy with the improvements just as I was. I/we still have not gone back to the LEDs after having done the upgrades to compare. So, it’s hard to really say. The LED choice also makes a large difference, he and I used different LEDs. Assumption is that the LED may reduce some warmth and some analog sound signature, think of a more detailed solid state sound. They were very welcomed on my stock Darkvoice. Just buy the LEDs I’ve recommended earlier on mouser and try it out, they’re bout $3 for a pair.


----------



## therremans

Still hoping @L0rdGwyn will come through with a drop in upgrade for the transformer.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, I’m probably there too. Down to the wire itself, the only thing that will be original on mine is the chassis, transformer, output + power caps PCB. Someone could really argue against it being logical and just invest in a better amp. (But I also don’t care.) It’s a lot of fun for me and has given me the confidence to build an amp myself one day.
> 
> 
> Not trying to speak for Tony here but I believe he had installed the 220uf bypass caps while also swapping all of the 6SN7 resistors at the same time. So, it’s hard to really answer the question of why or the specific differences in the LED biasing alone. He was happy with the improvements just as I was. I/we still have not gone back to the LEDs after having done the upgrades to compare. So, it’s hard to really say. The LED choice also makes a large difference, he and I used different LEDs. Assumption is that the LED may reduce some warmth and some analog sound signature, think of a more detailed solid state sound. They were very welcomed on my stock Darkvoice. Just buy the LEDs I’ve recommended earlier on mouser and try it out, they’re bout $3 for a pair.



I've read in a couple places that a further sonic improvement is possible by bypassing the electrolytic cathode caps (Fitz mod) with a good film cap.  First I've ever heard that. Don't know if that's audio insanity to the extreme or could actually be worthwhile.  In most cases bypassing electrolytics with film caps yields an improvement regardless of where they are in the circuit, but I've never seen cathode caps with bypasses.  Anybody else ever hear of this or have any experience to offer?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The best sounding cap is no cap.  But I totally agree on the DC be damned part, especially the one just north of Virginia.  LOL!



Right, that's what I meant. Bypassed as in no longer in circuit.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Still hoping @L0rdGwyn will come through with a drop in upgrade for the transformer.



Oh, what is wrong with the transformer?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 22, 2021)

therremans said:


> Yeah, I’m probably there too. Down to the wire itself, the only thing that will be original on mine is the chassis, transformer, output + power caps PCB. Someone could really argue against it being logical and just invest in a better amp. (But I also don’t care.) It’s a lot of fun for me and has given me the confidence to build an amp myself one day.
> 
> 
> Not trying to speak for Tony here but I believe he had installed the 220uf bypass caps while also swapping all of the 6SN7 resistors at the same time. So, it’s hard to really answer the question of why or the specific differences in the LED biasing alone. He was happy with the improvements just as I was. I/we still have not gone back to the LEDs after having done the upgrades to compare. So, it’s hard to really say. The LED choice also makes a large difference, he and I used different LEDs. Assumption is that the LED may reduce some warmth and some analog sound signature, think of a more detailed solid state sound. They were very welcomed on my stock Darkvoice. Just buy the LEDs I’ve recommended earlier on mouser and try it out, they’re bout $3 for a pair.



Pretty much this ^


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I've read in a couple places that a further sonic improvement is possible by bypassing the electrolytic cathode caps (Fitz mod) with a good film cap.  First I've ever heard that. Don't know if that's audio insanity to the extreme or could actually be worthwhile.  In most cases bypassing electrolytics with film caps yields an improvement regardless of where they are in the circuit, but I've never seen cathode caps with bypasses.  Anybody else ever hear of this or have any experience to offer?


That’s just.. insane.. no genius. Let’s try it. 2.2uf (1%)? most will probably have much too high of a voltage rating.



L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh, what is wrong with the transformer?


Nothing to my knowledge.


L0rdGwyn said:


> I will measure the stock DV too to do a before and after - frequency response, THD+N, square waves - PS noise and distortion should go down significantly.


I must have read this as you were going to swap the power supply.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> That’s just.. insane.. no genius. Let’s try it. 2.2uf (1%)? most will probably have much too high of a voltage rating.
> 
> 
> Nothing to my knowledge.
> ...



I might have some 2.2's in the stash, but they're gonna be way too big to fit in there easily (if I *do* have any they'll be 600v most likely).  Got a bag full of 0.22's...same voltages but much smaller, but also wonder if that's big enough to do anything.  Might have to look for some Solens or something.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> I must have read this as you were going to swap the power supply.



So that doesn't involve changing the mains transformer, what I want to do is regulate the power supply such that anything before the regulator is essentially inaudible, making the quality of the transformer irrelevant.  Now the issue with this is the power supply regulator I was planning to squeeze into @Galapac 's DV is that it is not my design, it was created by Mischa of 1101 Audio.  It is the highest performing high-voltage regulator that I am aware of.  The problem is, because it is not my IP and out of respect for Mischa, I cannot offer it up to the community - i.e. I cannot provide the boards for others to put them in the DV's.  Also, implementing it correctly might be a bit of a challenge.  However, there are other options out there, more "available" similar regulators that from a practical standpoint will offer the same performance benefits.  So, once I have finished with @Galapac 's DV, which will have the 1101 Audio regulator, I will come up with another solution for others to use here.  I might put together a PCB for a classic Maida regulator, or the 21st Century Maida from Neurochrome could be used, assuming it will fit, I have not seen their PCBs in real life.

https://neurochrome.com/products/21st-century-maida-regulator

Here is what I am gong to do to the DV:

1) Remove all of / majority of the CRC filters from the power supply (depends on which regulator is used)
2) Regulate the power supply (Maida regulator of some kind)
3) Remove resistor load from 6SN7 driver
4) Gyrator load the 6SN7
5) +/- on using a current sink on the 6080
6) Increase output capacitance (going to try to squeeze three 33uF caps on the stock PCB)

Right now what I am working on is putting together a PCB for the gyrator load.  I picked up some of these LSK170 JFETs to use on it.  These are pretty expensive though, probably would recommend something like the J310 JFET instead for others.




Once the DV mods are done, I can provide gyrator PCBs and a parts list if people are interested in adding them to their DV.

Now as far as the current sink on the 6080...not sure that is worth the effort to be honest.  It would provide a more ideal load for the 6080 compared to a resistor, BUT the bias current through the 6080 would be lower, which means the output impedance would be higher.  Pushing 80mA through a current sink FET is a lot of power to dissipate and would probably mean an impractically large heat sink.  Would it sound better at the cost of some output impedance?  It might, but performance with lower impedance headphones could suffer.

Most likely will leave the cathode resistor on the 6080 as is, we will see.  I am slowly working on this, going to take some time.


----------



## DeweyCH

I rolled more tubes.





Can I be in the "Seriously you have two adapters and four tubes in that Darkvoice" club?
2x Super Silvertones in the front - 6J5G and 6J5GT - and 2x GEC 2293s in the back.

Business up front party in the back, or the other way around?

Sounds reeeally good, though. Comparing to the 5998/dual Silvertones, there's a bit more mid-forward of a presentation but still with strong bass. Vocals come forward a bit more, which I like. I truly believe that I am the walrus.


----------



## DeweyCH

This is a really, really, really good combination. I could totally see this being the only tube combo I ever used on the DV. It won't be... but it could.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> This is a really, really, really good combination. I could totally see this being the only tube combo I ever used on the DV. It won't be... but it could.


You could even mix it up further with an A2293/CV4079 combination. Some say the CV4079 of the GEC is a little more on the low end but I have not tried it myself.


----------



## therremans

Thank you @L0rdGwyn, The modifications sound great to the plebeian. I have some reading to do.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Thank you @L0rdGwyn, The modifications sound great to the plebeian. I have some reading to do.



No problem!  Happy to explain things if you have any questions.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> No problem!  Happy to explain things if you have any questions.



You 'da man!  And I have no problem being patient while you work on it.  I don't know about @therremans , but tomorrow is fine with me.   

Seriously, your thought, effort, and sharing of information on this is most graciously and sincerely appreciated.


----------



## DeweyCH

Today I'm 1 for 3... Successfully replaced the speaker relays in my old Luxman R-117 (yay), unsuccessfully performed a Fitz mod (boo) and didn't quite get up the gumption to replace the switch (also boo).

Where, exactly, should the caps in the Fitz mod be attached on the socket end? I ask because the resistor they go in parallel with goes up the heatshrink, and I don't see how I can get a soldering iron in there to properly connect them anyways. So I stuck the pin into the socket. That's apparently incorrect. Do I take off the heatshrink and attach the cap pin there, or just solder it to the pin on the resistor before it goes up the skirt?

Also, can anyone give me a "for dummies" version of what cables to connect where on my switch?

Thanks.

Edit: That 1 for 3 is a big one though... DAMN that Luxman sounds good.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 22, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Today I'm 1 for 3... Successfully replaced the speaker relays in my old Luxman R-117 (yay), unsuccessfully performed a Fitz mod (boo) and didn't quite get up the gumption to replace the switch (also boo).
> 
> Where, exactly, should the caps in the Fitz mod be attached on the socket end? I ask because the resistor they go in parallel with goes up the heatshrink, and I don't see how I can get a soldering iron in there to properly connect them anyways. So I stuck the pin into the socket. That's apparently incorrect. Do I take off the heatshrink and attach the cap pin there, or just solder it to the pin on the resistor before it goes up the skirt?
> 
> ...


take the heat shrink off, I used and exacto knife to cut one side of it and came off easy.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> take the heat shrink off, I used and exacto knife to cut one side of it and came off easy.


Thanks. Would it work if I just soldered the cap pin to the resistor pin before where it reaches the rest? Truly just an academic question but a boy’s gotta learn somehow.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Thanks. Would it work if I just soldered the cap pin to the resistor pin before where it reaches the rest? Truly just an academic question but a boy’s gotta learn somehow.


I'm not sure about that one. Someone might chime in, it's almost beer 30.. 😁


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Today I'm 1 for 3... Successfully replaced the speaker relays in my old Luxman R-117 (yay), unsuccessfully performed a Fitz mod (boo) and didn't quite get up the gumption to replace the switch (also boo).
> 
> Where, exactly, should the caps in the Fitz mod be attached on the socket end? I ask because the resistor they go in parallel with goes up the heatshrink, and I don't see how I can get a soldering iron in there to properly connect them anyways. So I stuck the pin into the socket. That's apparently incorrect. Do I take off the heatshrink and attach the cap pin there, or just solder it to the pin on the resistor before it goes up the skirt?
> 
> ...



The "Fitz Mod" caps are put in to bypass the cathode resistors. On a 6SN7, that's pins 3 and 6. Just grab that heatshrink that's on the socket solder lug now with some pliers and pull it off. It'll become just a gooey mess if you try and solder with it on there anyway. It's not necessary to put it back...just be sure that all the socket lugs are straight and have clearance between them when you're finished.  You'll notice without a tube in the socket that the solder lugs on the bottom side will wiggle around a bit. That's normal, as it allows the contacts in the upper part of the socket to adjust and align with the tube pins to make good contact.  Whenever I solder to a tube socket, I put some worthless tube (like a GE) in the socket first. That will make sure the solder lugs on the bottom are in a good alignment before you start soldering a part to them that may limit their movement.  Once you have the heatshrink removed, solder the positive lead of one cap to pin 3, solder the positive lead of the other cap to pin 6, and then solder the negative leads of both caps to the negative rail that the other end of the resistor(s) are mounted to.  Any point along that negative buss rail is fine, just be sure you're keeping leads from touching each other anywhere.

Cathode is denoted by the arc (pins 3 and 6).  1 and 4 are the grids, denoted by the dashed lines, and the anodes (plate) are the solid straight lines. Pins 7 and 8 are the heaters (or filaments).




The capacitor leads are connected to the same points as the resistors (yellow circles):





Caps installed. Positive leads to pins 3 and 6, and negative leads to the negative buss wire in the yellow rectangle. Be sure you get the positive and negative right, or things will go boom.  Negative on the cap is denoted with the stripe and the dash mark (or long rectangle printed in the striped area).


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Thanks. Would it work if I just soldered the cap pin to the resistor pin before where it reaches the rest? Truly just an academic question but a boy’s gotta learn somehow.



Will it work?  Probably.  Just do it right though and solder the cap lead directly to the socket lug.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Whenever I solder to a tube socket, I put some worthless tube (like a GE) in the socket first.



Not totally worthless then.  G.E.  = General Experiment.  Taking one for the team.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Not totally worthless then.  G.E.  = General Experiment.  Taking one for the team.



You make a very good point.  There actually *is* something a GE is good for!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The "Fitz Mod" caps are put in to bypass the cathode resistors. On a 6SN7, that's pins 3 and 6. Just grab that heatshrink that's on the socket solder lug now with some pliers and pull it off. It'll become just a gooey mess if you try and solder with it on there anyway. It's not necessary to put it back...just be sure that all the socket lugs are straight and have clearance between them when you're finished.  You'll notice without a tube in the socket that the solder lugs on the bottom side will wiggle around a bit. That's normal, as it allows the contacts in the upper part of the socket to adjust and align with the tube pins to make good contact.  Whenever I solder to a tube socket, I put some worthless tube (like a GE) in the socket first. That will make sure the solder lugs on the bottom are in a good alignment before you start soldering a part to them that may limit their movement.  Once you have the heatshrink removed, solder the positive lead of one cap to pin 3, solder the positive lead of the other cap to pin 6, and then solder the negative leads of both caps to the negative rail that the other end of the resistor(s) are mounted to.  Any point along that negative buss rail is fine, just be sure you're keeping leads from touching each other anywhere.
> 
> Cathode is denoted by the arc (pins 3 and 6).  1 and 4 are the grids, denoted by the dashed lines, and the anodes (plate) are the solid straight lines. Pins 7 and 8 are the heaters (or filaments).
> 
> ...


Is the position these caps sit important? In this photo they're sitting inside the other two resistors connected to the same 3 and 6pins, any ill effects if they're soldered outside of these resistors?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The "Fitz Mod" caps are put in to bypass the cathode resistors. On a 6SN7, that's pins 3 and 6. Just grab that heatshrink that's on the socket solder lug now with some pliers and pull it off. It'll become just a gooey mess if you try and solder with it on there anyway. It's not necessary to put it back...just be sure that all the socket lugs are straight and have clearance between them when you're finished.  You'll notice without a tube in the socket that the solder lugs on the bottom side will wiggle around a bit. That's normal, as it allows the contacts in the upper part of the socket to adjust and align with the tube pins to make good contact.  Whenever I solder to a tube socket, I put some worthless tube (like a GE) in the socket first. That will make sure the solder lugs on the bottom are in a good alignment before you start soldering a part to them that may limit their movement.  Once you have the heatshrink removed, solder the positive lead of one cap to pin 3, solder the positive lead of the other cap to pin 6, and then solder the negative leads of both caps to the negative rail that the other end of the resistor(s) are mounted to.  Any point along that negative buss rail is fine, just be sure you're keeping leads from touching each other anywhere.
> 
> Cathode is denoted by the arc (pins 3 and 6).  1 and 4 are the grids, denoted by the dashed lines, and the anodes (plate) are the solid straight lines. Pins 7 and 8 are the heaters (or filaments).
> 
> ...


It don’t get more comprehensive than that. Cheers!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Is the position these caps sit important? In this photo they're sitting inside the other two resistors connected to the same 3 and 6pins, any ill effects if they're soldered outside of these resistors?



If I'm understanding your question correctly, does it matter where along that ground buss wire the negative leads of the caps are soldered?  Did I read you right?  If so, no, it shouldn't make any difference, although I would solder them to that same ground wire at some point and not to some other grounding wire or other grounding point in the amp.  Maybe that wouldn't make any difference either, but I kept them on that same ground wire just 'cause there was plenty of room, it was easy to keep things tidy looking that way, and you already know how anal I am about appearances and all.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> If I'm understanding your question correctly, does it matter where along that ground buss wire the negative leads of the caps are soldered?  Did I read you right?  If so, no, it shouldn't make any difference, although I would solder them to that same ground wire at some point and not to some other grounding wire or other grounding point in the amp.  Maybe that wouldn't make any difference either, but I kept them on that same ground wire just 'cause there was plenty of room, it was easy to keep things tidy looking that way, and you already know how anal I am about appearances and all.


Thanks! I thought I would be needing to resolder the one cap to the inside of these guys (resistor), the right is outside the right resistor the left inside .. why...I don't remember why I did that, might have blindly clipped the wires without measuring and was happy it even reached the ground wire...  all good though!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks! I thought I would be needing to resolder the one cap to the inside of these guys (resistor), the right is outside the right resistor the left inside .. why...I don't remember why I did that, might have blindly clipped the wires without measuring and was happy it even reached the ground wire...  all good though!!



Measure once, cut twice.  I had a whole plant full of employees that adhered to that principle religiously.


----------



## bcowen

Sometimes it pays to be nice.  It's a new and foreign concept for me, but initial results appear promising.   Seller on Ebay had the tube on the right for $10 Buy It Now with free shipping.  So I messaged him and asked if he possibly had a mate for it. Got a prompt and friendly response that he would look.  Apparently he had just inherited a house with a garage full of tubes, but knew nothing about them and then asked if I thought he'd do better selling them as pairs or groups or individually. I sent him a reasonably detailed response on the difference between single and dual triode tubes, provided him a couple links for looking stuff up, and suggested that the dual triodes would sell easily enough individually, but that single triodes would likely sell faster in pairs (or more).  He messaged me back the next day and said he'd found another, thanked me for my help, and said if I wanted to do the Buy It Now for $10 he'd send me both tubes.  Arrived today, and both test at NOS levels and within 5% of each other in GM.  Interesting that the one on the left is in a KenRad box but it's an RCA tube.  I have no idea what the orange lettering is...part of it appears to have been done with a stamp, and part of it appears to be handwritten.  

Considering trying this 'nice' thing again....gotta do some more research on it first though.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Sometimes it pays to be nice.  It's a new and foreign concept for me, but initial results appear promising.   Seller on Ebay had the tube on the right for $10 Buy It Now with free shipping.  So I messaged him and asked if he possibly had a mate for it. Got a prompt and friendly response that he would look.  Apparently he had just inherited a house with a garage full of tubes, but knew nothing about them and then asked if I thought he'd do better selling them as pairs or groups or individually. I sent him a reasonably detailed response on the difference between single and dual triode tubes, provided him a couple links for looking stuff up, and suggested that the dual triodes would sell easily enough individually, but that single triodes would likely sell faster in pairs (or more).  He messaged me back the next day and said he'd found another, thanked me for my help, and said if I wanted to do the Buy It Now for $10 he'd send me both tubes.  Arrived today, and both test at NOS levels and within 5% of each other in GM.  Interesting that the one on the left is in a KenRad box but it's an RCA tube.  I have no idea what the orange lettering is...part of it appears to have been done with a stamp, and part of it appears to be handwritten.
> 
> Considering trying this 'nice' thing again....gotta do some more research on it first though.


People who need people are the happiest people. Great find, better story.


----------



## jonathan c

Just remember, though, that tubes don’t need us. We need tubes. When did anyone last hear of tubes hoarding owners?


----------



## DeweyCH

Shockingly that comprehensive photo-filled walkthrough got me through the Fitz mod. Not that it's hard, I suppose, just that... I didn't really know what I was doing wrong. Thanks all, as always!


----------



## DeweyCH

When did we go from deriving joy from listening to music to deriving joy from tinkering with and endlessly upgrading our musical vehicles?

Not that I'm complaining... joy is joy... but it's kind of funny.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> When did we go from deriving joy from listening to music to deriving joy from tinkering with and endlessly upgrading our musical vehicles?
> 
> Not that I'm complaining... joy is joy... but it's kind of funny.


Let alone the “compound” joy of tinkering with/upgrading one music vehicle while listening to another music vehicle......Now, a question for all you DV modders...you know who you are: Has anyone thought about / done a complete removal and upgrade of all the DV innards, at one setting?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> When did we go from deriving joy from listening to music to deriving joy from tinkering with and endlessly upgrading our musical vehicles?
> 
> Not that I'm complaining... joy is joy... but it's kind of funny.



There are those that buy whatever is on the shelf at Best Buy or Wal-Mart and call it good.  Then there's us.  Personally, I'm happy _not_ to be at Wal-Mart.  LOL!!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> There are those that buy whatever is on the shelf at Best Buy or Wal-Mart and call it good.  Then there's us.  Personally, I'm happy _not_ to be at Wal-Mart.  LOL!!


Besides, would there be any ‘panache’ in having a Great Value 6080wm as the power tube in your favourite headphone amplifier?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Shockingly that comprehensive photo-filled walkthrough got me through the Fitz mod. Not that it's hard, I suppose, just that... I didn't really know what I was doing wrong. Thanks all, as always!



Nice!  How's it sound?  All hum be gone?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Nice!  How's it sound?  All hum be gone?


So far so good, yeah. I had a bad hum at first then realized one of the cap pins was too far through the other side and touching another pin base. Sounding very nice.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sometimes it pays to be nice.  It's a new and foreign concept for me, but initial results appear promising.   Seller on Ebay had the tube on the right for $10 Buy It Now with free shipping.  So I messaged him and asked if he possibly had a mate for it. Got a prompt and friendly response that he would look.  Apparently he had just inherited a house with a garage full of tubes, but knew nothing about them and then asked if I thought he'd do better selling them as pairs or groups or individually. I sent him a reasonably detailed response on the difference between single and dual triode tubes, provided him a couple links for looking stuff up, and suggested that the dual triodes would sell easily enough individually, but that single triodes would likely sell faster in pairs (or more).  He messaged me back the next day and said he'd found another, thanked me for my help, and said if I wanted to do the Buy It Now for $10 he'd send me both tubes.  Arrived today, and both test at NOS levels and within 5% of each other in GM.  Interesting that the one on the left is in a KenRad box but it's an RCA tube.  I have no idea what the orange lettering is...part of it appears to have been done with a stamp, and part of it appears to be handwritten.
> 
> Considering trying this 'nice' thing again....gotta do some more research on it first thoug





DeweyCH said:


> When did we go from deriving joy from listening to music to deriving joy from tinkering with and endlessly upgrading our musical vehicles?
> 
> Not that I'm complaining... joy is joy... but it's kind of funny.


LOL.. I concur.. what happened here!?  I guess we don't use our equipment to listen to music...we use music to listen to our equipment now..


----------



## DeweyCH

Post-Fitz-mod the noise floor is completely gone. Like... black, silent background. I'm seriously impressed, and this is even with my "I'm willing to blow these up if I did something wrong" tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Also lookie what arrived: I like those RCA tin cans so much I got a backup pair!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> So far so good, yeah. I had a bad hum at first then realized one of the cap pins was too far through the other side and touching another pin base. Sounding very nice.



Yeah, you should clip those excess leads off.  Neatness and all.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

On call today, sore and scarred up a bit from my mountain bike excursions this weekend, half awake drinking black coffee, treating myself to something nice this morning...


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> It really depends on the LEDs. I’m happy with how my amp sounds now using 220uf (25V) caps and don’t want to go back but I do have a new pair of LEDs if I want to try them again. I sent a pair of these same red LEDs I’ve used to @bcowen to try out one day if he wants to give us his impressions. HLMP-1600 Broadcom / Avago Red Diffused
> 
> I’d order two of these sockets now, Belton octal with lugs and install them when you do the following upgrades. Many different websites sell them and they’re even on eBay. Much much better than those white ceramic Chinese sockets or anything else you’ll find. You’ll love them.
> 
> ...


Question for you; these arrived today, and I've noticed that the slot for the tube's central pillar (whatever it's called?) is 90 degrees off of the ones installed on the DV. Does this matter? Do I need to change up the connections to the pins or rotate them with new screw-holes in the DV's case? I'm still picking up on the basics of electronic construction.

Thanks!


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 25, 2021)

I'd think the sockets should spin in their mounting plates. If so, just turn them 90º and all should be good - looks like the sockets have the pin # clearly displayed too. As long as wire 1 goes to pin 1 and so on it shouldn't matter which direction the key faces - although if it is installed backwards (180º) you may be possessed by evil spirits


----------



## therremans (Jan 25, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Question for you; these arrived today, and I've noticed that the slot for the tube's central pillar (whatever it's called?) is 90 degrees off of the ones installed on the DV. Does this matter? Do I need to change up the connections to the pins or rotate them with new screw-holes in the DV's case? I'm still picking up on the basics of electronic construction.
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, spin the socket so the pin key slot faces forward and then the wiring internally will be the same.

The circle below will be a point of contact as the 6sn7 top plate hole cutout is smaller than the 6as7. To fit this socket down into the hole, you'll want to bend the socket wings. I bent mine down slightly until it fit and when I tightened up the two mounting screws, it straightened itself back out. I also added washers.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Yes, spin the socket so the pin key slot faces forward and then the wiring internally will be the same.
> 
> The circle below will be a point of contact as the 6sn7 top plate hole cutout is smaller than the 6as7. To fit this socket down into the hole, you'll want to bend the socket wings. I bent mine down slightly until it fit and when I tightened up the two mounting screws, it straightened itself back out. I also added washers.


Lovely, thanks. I'll try to get the sockets and all my resistors together at the same-ish time.


----------



## JKDJedi

Got some Gec on GEc action going on for the evening..  deeper bass than the Chathams.. (wider open soundstage) both excellent with the L63


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Got some Gec on GEc action going on for the evening..  deeper bass than the Chathams.. (wider open soundstage) both excellent with the L63


Oddly enough, so do I.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Got some Gec on GEc action going on for the evening..  deeper bass than the Chathams.. (wider open soundstage) both excellent with the L63



Running GEC's in both the front and back is illegal in CA.  You should probably send me that GEC 6AS7G just to avoid a mistake and potential trouble with the law.

@therremans can get away with it because most everything is legal in Colorado.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Running GEC's in both the front and back is illegal in CA.  You should probably send me that GEC 6AS7G just to avoid a mistake and potential trouble with the law.
> 
> @therremans can get away with it because most everything is legal in Colorado.


I'm using a VPN so I'm in New York at the moment..😂😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm using a VPN so I'm in New York at the moment..😂😂


----------



## Galapac (Jan 25, 2021)

therremans said:


> Oddly enough, so do I.


How do you like those Cv4079’s in the DV? I use the A2293’s in my 339i and love the sound of them. I call them poor man’s GEC 6AS7G


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> How do you like those Cv4079’s in the DV? I use the A2293’s in my 339i and love the sound of them. I call them poor man’s GEC 6AS7G


Still letting them burn in.


----------



## therremans




----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


5 o’clock for the volume knob? L-O-U-D? 😬?


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> 5 o’clock for the volume knob? L-O-U-D? 😬?


My zero is at noon. Ha.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 26, 2021)

After 3 weeks...


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> After 3 weeks...



It got bigger?   

Seriously, what are we looking at here?


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> It got bigger?
> 
> Seriously, what are we looking at here?


3 weeks of waiting. It's a Psvane CV181-T-Mk2


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> 3 weeks of waiting. It's a Psvane CV181-T-Mk2



Oh, cool!  Sorry...I wasn't aware you were waiting on it.  Bet you like it...I like the one I have. Very nicely manufactured tube, IMO.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> Oh, cool!  Sorry...I wasn't aware you were waiting on it.  Bet you like it...I like the one I have. Very nicely manufactured tube, IMO.


Well it just arrived today. I will need to pop it in tonight and see what's what. It sure screams quality as far as manufacturing goes but mine is slightly tilted, like not physically symmetrical if that makes sense. I have it in the car, will snap a better photo later.

I also got two other tubes at the customs post office. Fu**ers close at3 o clock and I get off work at 4. Besides that, they only work on Mondays, Wednesdays & Thursdays. So no tubes for me today lol.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Well it just arrived today. I will need to pop it in tonight and see what's what. It sure screams quality as far as manufacturing goes but mine is slightly tilted, like not physically symmetrical if that makes sense. I have it in the car, will snap a better photo later.
> 
> I also got two other tubes at the customs post office. Fu**ers close at3 o clock and I get off work at 4. Besides that, they only work on Mondays, Wednesdays & Thursdays. So no tubes for me today lol.



You mean the bottle isn't aligned perfectly straight (vertically) in the base?  Well that's a bummer. As expensive as those are you kind of expect them to be perfect (well, *I* do anyway).  May be worse looking at it in your hand than it does once you get it in the amp though....optical delusions and all.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> You mean the bottle isn't aligned perfectly straight (vertically) in the base?  Well that's a bummer. As expensive as those are you kind of expect them to be perfect (well, *I* do anyway).  May be worse looking at it in your hand than it does once you get it in the amp though....optical delusions and all.


Yes. It's a little tilted vertically but only if you look from a certain angle. Should look just fine looking from the front of the DV.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes. It's a little tilted vertically but only if you look from a certain angle. Should look just fine looking from the front of the DV.



We'll keep our fingers crossed.  You *do* know that tube needs a bare minimum of 500 hours of break-in before it sounds best, right?

J/K.  In fact IIRC that tube sounded quite nice right off the bat. It improved some after the first several hours of play, but it didn't need much time at all to get fully into its groove.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> We'll keep our fingers crossed.  You *do* know that tube needs a bare minimum of 500 hours of break-in before it sounds best, right?
> 
> J/K.  In fact IIRC that tube sounded quite nice right off the bat. It improved some after the first several hours of play, but it didn't need much time at all to get fully into its groove.



No no I belive you. I'm going for that 501 hours mark just to be sure 
I'll probably pop it in tonight and let it burn for a day or two. I don't think I'll have the time this week to properly listen so I'll do burn-ins during this week and listen on Saturday


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Going to just copy over what I said on my thread.

Put together the gyrator PCB this morning for the Darkvoice modifications. Ordering today, we'll see how it turns out. 




A gyrator is a type of active load for a tube, similar to a CCS. The gyrator simulates and inductive load using a capacitor, but without the magnetic properties of a inductor. The long and short of it is the gyrator provides a high AC impedance load for the tube while setting the plate _voltage _and the tube bias sets its current. This is opposed to a CCS load which sets the plate _current_ and the tube bias sets the plate voltage.

The advantage of using a gyrator over a CCS in an amplifier like the Darkvoice is due direct coupling. Making the plate voltage of the driver constant, as opposed to the plate current, ensures the output tube will maintain a stable bias point as its grid will be at the same voltage.  The end result for the listener as far as the gyrator goes is lower distortion and better power supply rejection than a resistor load.

The goal is to not have to drill any holes in the Darkvoice chassis - the mounting holes of the PCB align with the mounting holes of the last CRC filter of the power supply, which will be removed once the power supply is regulated.  Think it will fit...we will see


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> You mean the bottle isn't aligned perfectly straight (vertically) in the base?  Well that's a bummer. As expensive as those are you kind of expect them to be perfect (well, *I* do anyway).  May be worse looking at it in your hand than it does once you get it in the amp though....optical delusions and all.


It's like he's proud or something 🤣


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jan 26, 2021)

Okay, so I wasn't planning on finalizing all of the DarkVoice modification plans today, but that's what happened, all of parts are ordered.

So here is what we are doing specifically...

1) *Maida regulated power supply.*  The entire stock CRCRC-CRC filter is being excised and replaced with a 330uF reservoir cap and a Maida regulator.  This regulator, again the hard work of Mischa of 1101 Audio, has far better power supply rejection capabilities than even the biggest, clunkiest passive supplies with giant caps and chokes.  It is compact and incredibly performative.

Here is the first CRCRC removed.  This is where the Maida regulator will go.



It just so happens I have a regulator ready to go from another project, just have to change one or two components to adapt for this circuit.  Had to get creative on how it is going to be mounted, but came up with a solution that I think will work with the existing mounting hardware, no drilling necessary.  Going to attempt to get away with not using a heatsink on the TO-247 FET.  Going to strap a thermocouple to it and see how hot it get, we'll see how it goes, having to squeeze a heat sink on would make things very interesting...hoping to avoid it.



2) *Gyrator load on 6SN7.*  The PCBs and parts are ordered, just a matter of waiting to get them in house for assembly.  As I said, these will go in the position of the last CRC of the power supply, again using the existing mounting hardware, the PCB mounting holes will align.

The bias point of the 6SN7 will be altered slightly, so the necessary cathode resistor has been ordered as well.



3) *Output tube cathode resistor swap.*  Based on simulations I have run and the new bias point of the 6SN7, in addition to the new higher available B+ supply, the bias of the output tube will also be slightly altered to maintain the 80mA plate current of the original design - keeping the 1K cathode resistors would push this to 100mA, which would be fine from a plate dissipation standpoint, but felt better not pushing the tubes harder than originally intended, especially since they are becoming quite rare (pushing 100mA through a 1K 25W resistor would get very hot too).  This necessitates increasing the value of the cathode resistor slightly to 1.2K.  Just for the halibut, will change them to Vishay non-inductive wirewound resistors, which fit in the same position as the originals.

4) *Output capacitance.*  The DarkVoice as built has only 30uF of output capacitance, which leads to major LF rolloff with lower impedance headphones, pretty much anything under 300ohms.  Have to increase it, which is challenging as the available space is very limited.  I was hoping to find something that can fit on the original PCB, and I did, but it is a tight squeeze, some 33uF 250VDC TDK film caps.

Now these are thicker than the originals at 22mm, so I am not super confident that I will be able to squeeze three of them in, which would be ideal.  Even if it is just two, 66uF is better than 30uF and will improve the LF performance with headphones of moderate impedance.

5) *Alps pot.*  That is all.

Edit: we've added another item...

6) *Heater balance.* The heaters in the stock DarkVoice do not appear to be center tapped. In addition, the leads are not a twisted pair. These two oversights are very likely the cause of the widely reported "hum" issues in this amplifier. Making both of these chances should significantly reduce the audible hum.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 26, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> After 3 weeks...


This is one of them "new" tubes I'd love to demo.. this and the Sophia


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> This is one of them "new" tubes I'd love to demo..


To bad it's all covered up. Has a really nice glow inside.


----------



## Mr Trev

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, so I wasn't planning on finalizing all of the DarkVoice modification plans today, but that's what happened, all of parts are ordered.
> 
> So here is what we are doing specifically...
> 
> ...



*Gyrator load on 6SN7* - sounds like the name of a '70s prog rock album

On thing I've been wondering about these amps, is it possible to make them compatible with 12v tubes - 12sn7 are far cheaper. Or how about a type 56 - ok, this one's probably wishful thinking.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Mr Trev said:


> On thing I've been wondering about these amps, is it possible to make them compatible with 12v tubes - 12sn7 are far cheaper. Or how about a type 56 - ok, this one's probably wishful thinking.



No surefire way, unfortunately, without knowing the specifications of the transformer.  Maybe if there is a hidden 6.3V winding that isn't being used  but most likely no.  You could hypothetically rectify the 6.3VAC winding to 12.6VDC using a voltage doubler circuit, but the current demand on the winding would be much higher and again, we don't know the specs of the transformer.


----------



## JKDJedi

You guys have me googling stuff and found this tid bit on the hum issues that come with the stock Darkvoice...

"336 usually come from pre-amp tubes not handling the higher heater voltages the first time they're inserted, so it's either 72 hour burn ins, or the more reliable Hum-Fitz mod"

 How do we check the heater voltages? just find the heater pins and check with voltage meter? 🤔 Curious as to whTs the actual heat voltages are exactly now that the mod is in place.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> How do we check the heater voltages? just find the heater pins and check with voltage meter? 🤔 Curious as to whTs the actual heat voltages are exactly now that the mod is in place.


Yes, 6.3v is your target. Carefully touch the DMM (set to AC), here. My LED is currently removed for now but you get it. This wire connects to the 6sn7 heater, you could also remove the heat shrink that’s on the lug and test it there.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> You guys have me googling stuff and found this tid bit on the hum issues that come with the stock Darkvoice...
> 
> "336 usually come from pre-amp tubes not handling the higher heater voltages the first time they're inserted, so it's either 72 hour burn ins, or the more reliable Hum-Fitz mod"
> 
> How do we check the heater voltages? just find the heater pins and check with voltage meter? 🤔 Curious as to whTs the actual heat voltages are exactly now that the mod is in place.



I just measured them, around 7.15VAC in the DarkVoice I have on hand.  What is this Hum-Fitz mod?  One thing I haven't looked at yet is if the heaters are center-tapped or have a virtual center tap.  If not, that would explain the hum issues, although that would be a pretty huge design oversight...


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I just measured them, around 7.15VAC in the DarkVoice I have on hand.  What is this Hum-Fitz mod?  One thing I haven't looked at yet is if the heaters are center-tapped or have a virtual center tap.  If not, that would explain the hum issues, although that would be a pretty huge design oversight...


wow....7.15...thats insane


----------



## therremans

Also I dialed mine to 6.3v by using a Variac. My unit likes 116v-117v from the wall.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I just measured them, around 7.15VAC in the DarkVoice I have on hand.  What is this Hum-Fitz mod?  One thing I haven't looked at yet is if the heaters are center-tapped or have a virtual center tap.  If not, that would explain the hum issues, although that would be a pretty huge design oversight...


Reposting from what Bill explained.. 

  "
The "Fitz Mod" caps are put in to bypass the cathode resistors. On a 6SN7, that's pins 3 and 6. Just grab that heatshrink that's on the socket solder lug now with some pliers and pull it off. It'll become just a gooey mess if you try and solder with it on there anyway. It's not necessary to put it back...just be sure that all the socket lugs are straight and have clearance between them when you're finished. You'll notice without a tube in the socket that the solder lugs on the bottom side will wiggle around a bit. That's normal, as it allows the contacts in the upper part of the socket to adjust and align with the tube pins to make good contact. Whenever I solder to a tube socket, I put some worthless tube (like a GE) in the socket first. That will make sure the solder lugs on the bottom are in a good alignment before you start soldering a part to them that may limit their movement. Once you have the heatshrink removed, solder the positive lead of one cap to pin 3, solder the positive lead of the other cap to pin 6, and then solder the negative leads of both caps to the negative rail that the other end of the resistor(s) are mounted to. Any point along that negative buss rail is fine, just be sure you're keeping leads from touching each other anywhere.

Cathode is denoted by the arc (pins 3 and 6). 1 and 4 are the grids, denoted by the dashed lines, and the anodes (plate) are the solid straight lines. Pins 7 and 8 are the heaters (or filaments). "


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 26, 2021)

therremans said:


> Yes, 6.3v is your target. Carefully touch the DMM (set to AC), here. My LED is currently removed for now but you get it. This wire connects to the 6sn7 heater, you could also remove the heat shrink that’s on the lug and test it there.


Which lug is it if I'm freakn lazy to open her up, I take it I need to ground the black prod? I'd check the tube data but don't understand the schematics of the diagram.   
http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=6SN7


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Which lug is it if I'm freakn lazy to open her up, I take it I need to ground the black prod?


Oh sorry that’s #7.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 26, 2021)

therremans said:


> Oh sorry that’s #7.


This just got weird... measuring pin 7 and pin 8 I got 7.5 volts o.O and I have the fitz Mod in place.. W tF!? Is it because no tube is inserted when measured or ???
I just measured my other amp and that one is 7.8 volts naked..so maybe a tube does have to be in place to get an accurate reading..have to pop her open is my guess


----------



## therremans (Jan 26, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> This just got weird... measuring pin 7 and pin 8 I got 7.5 volts o.O and I have the fitz Mod in place.. W tF!? Is it because no tube is in place or ???


Didn’t you say you get like 120v+ from the wall? That’s why. I tested mine with a tube load in both sockets, might be wise. I didn’t think the bypass caps had any effect on the heater voltage.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I just measured them, around 7.15VAC in the DarkVoice I have on hand.  What is this Hum-Fitz mod?  One thing I haven't looked at yet is if the heaters are center-tapped or have a virtual center tap.  If not, that would explain the hum issues, although that would be a pretty huge design oversight...



The "Fitz mod" is adding bypass caps to the cathode resistors on the 6SN7.  Suggested value was 220 uF which is what I put in mine. From the factory, only the 1k resistors are on the cathodes.  Adding the caps pretty much resolves all the hum issues that are common with these amps depending on what tubes are in play.  Looks like @Galapac 's amp does not have them.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Didn’t you say you get like 120v+ from the wall? That’s why. I tested mine with a tube load in both sockets, might be wise.



I get 7.2v in mine with line voltage at 119v.  That's with both tubes in place.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, so I wasn't planning on finalizing all of the DarkVoice modification plans today, but that's what happened, all of parts are ordered.
> 
> So here is what we are doing specifically...
> 
> ...



Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!  

I'm 20% done already (Alps pot).  LOL!  

@JKDJedi , looks like my laziness paid off -- you won't be needing those 1k Rikens after all.    Perhaps I should send them to @L0rdGwyn instead as a small (quite small) token of appreciation.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The "Fitz mod" is adding bypass caps to the cathode resistors on the 6SN7.  Suggested value was 220 uF which is what I put in mine. From the factory, only the 1k resistors are on the cathodes.  Adding the caps pretty much resolves all the hum issues that are common with these amps depending on what tubes are in play.  Looks like @Galapac 's amp does not have them.


Ok, the forum I was just reading suggested that the Fitz Mod had some effect on the heater voltage. Maybe my misunderstanding?
https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11620.0


----------



## JKDJedi

_ https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma.../forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11620.0
I checked the Voltage on the Heaters about 2 days ago when contacting the transformer company for the new transformer and it was at ~7V AC, although Paul did give me a good alternative idea which is to simply use dropping resistors, which is a more economic solution, gotta figure out the resistor specs I need though to get the values needed to drop the voltage closer to 6.3V without any repercussions. _

*Dropping Resistors?? *


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jan 26, 2021)

So the only issue with the Hum-Fitz mod is that those electrolytic capacitors are now in the signal path of the amplifier.  Leaving the cathode resistors unbypassed causes something called "cathode degeneration", which is a form of internal negative feedback.  This linearizes the driver stage (i.e. less distortion), but also reduces gain and increases the output impedance, not a huge issue since it is working into a cathode follower.  Bypassing the cathode resistors will increase gain, increase distortion a bit, but also place a cap in the signal path.  No doubt this also creates an easy AC path to ground for any noise that is on the cathode, which is why it is reducing the hum, however.....

As far as I can tell, the heaters in this amplifier are not center-tapped nor do they have a virtual center tap, which is a problem.  This is likely a large contributor to all of the reported hum issues in this amp.  Center tapping the heaters balances the 6.3VAC, leading to a cancelation of the emitted electromagnetic fields generated by the AC current, which can be coupled into audio circuitry.  While I am at it, the fact that the heater windings are also not a twisted pair is also an issue - this serves a similar purpose, cancellation of electromagnetic fields generated by the 6.3VAC.

I will have to add a sixth item to the list:

6) *Heater balance.*  The heaters in the stock DarkVoice do not appear to be center tapped.  In addition, the leads are not a twisted pair.  These two oversights are very likely the cause of the widely reported "hum" issues in this amplifier.  Making both of these chances should significantly reduce the audible hum.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> So the only issue with the Hum-Fitz mod is that those electrolytic capacitors are now in the signal path of the amplifier.  Leaving the cathode resistors unbypassed causes something called "cathode degeneration", which is a form of internal negative feedback.  This linearizes the driver stage (i.e. less distortion), but also reduces gain and increases the output impedance, not a huge issue since it is working into a cathode follower.  Bypassing the cathode resistors will increase gain, increase distortion a bit, but also place a cap in the signal path.  No doubt this also creates an easy AC path to ground for any noise that is on the cathode, which is why it is reducing the hum, however.....
> 
> As far as I can tell, the heaters in this amplifier are not center-tapped nor do they have a virtual center tap, which is a problem.  This is likely a large contributor to all of the reported hum issues in this amp.  Center tapping the heaters balances the 6.3VAC, leading to a cancelation of the emitted electromagnetic fields generated by the AC current, which can be coupled into audio circuitry.  While I am at it, the fact that the heater windings are also not a twisted pair is also an issue - the serves a similar purpose, cancellation of electromagnetic fields generated by the 6.3VAC.
> 
> ...


Man I would love to try this heater balance thing and do away with the caps bypass mod if possible... seems to be the cleanest path for the audio signal... I half understood what you just laid out but I kind of get it at the same time. please share the results of this! 🙂


----------



## bcowen (Jan 26, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> So the only issue with the Hum-Fitz mod is that those electrolytic capacitors are now in the signal path of the amplifier.  Leaving the cathode resistors unbypassed causes something called "cathode degeneration", which is a form of internal negative feedback.  This linearizes the driver stage (i.e. less distortion), but also reduces gain and increases the output impedance, not a huge issue since it is working into a cathode follower.  Bypassing the cathode resistors will increase gain, increase distortion a bit, but also place a cap in the signal path.  No doubt this also creates an easy AC path to ground for any noise that is on the cathode, which is why it is reducing the hum, however.....
> 
> As far as I can tell, the heaters in this amplifier are not center-tapped nor do they have a virtual center tap, which is a problem.  This is likely a large contributor to all of the reported hum issues in this amp.  Center tapping the heaters balances the 6.3VAC, leading to a cancelation of the emitted electromagnetic fields generated by the AC current, which can be coupled into audio circuitry.  While I am at it, the fact that the heater windings are also not a twisted pair is also an issue - this serves a similar purpose, cancellation of electromagnetic fields generated by the 6.3VAC.
> 
> ...



Will this mod #6 reduce the heater voltage to the 6SN7 as well?  7+ volts seems awful high for a 6.3v tube...


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jan 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Will this mod #6 reduce the heater voltage to the 6SN7 as well?  7+ volts seems awful high for a 6.3v tube...



No it wouldn't fix the overvoltage, typically +/- 10% of the rated heater voltage is the rule of thumb, 7.15VAC is pretty high.  The right way to get that down is to use a voltage dropping resistor.  Here is how you would do that, assuming your voltage is 7.15VAC:

7.15VAC (measured) - 6.3VAC (nominal) = 0.85VAC difference

Total current draw = 2.5A (6080) + 0.6A (6SN7) = 3.1A

Then it is just Ohm's Law to determine the resistor value 

R = V/I = 0.85V/3.1A = 0.274ohm = 274mOhm.

Then to determine the wattage rating:

P = IV = 3.1A x 0.85VAC = 2.635W dissipated

Typically want the rated wattage to be something like 3-4 times the dissipated wattage, so something close to 274mOhm 10W resistor in series with the heaters.  Now if you were to center tap and balance the heaters, then you would want to put half of that resistance on each leg, so 137mOhm per leg or something close.  This also has the advantage of splitting the power dissipated, so you could use two 137mOhm 5W resistors.  10W wirewound resistors are pretty big.

I think I said something about not looking at any more tube stuff today...I have a problem.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> No it wouldn't fix the overvoltage, typically +/- 10% of the rated heater voltage is the rule of thumb, 7.15VAC is pretty high.  The right way to get that down is to use a voltage dropping resistor.  Here is how you would do that, assuming your voltage is 7.15VAC:
> 
> 7.15VAC (measured) - 6.3VAC (nominal) = 0.85VAC difference
> 
> ...


LOL..no thanks for sharing.. I learned A LOT today.. huge thanks!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 26, 2021)

Ok ... I opened her up ..just for @bcowen entertainment, and @therremans held my hand through the whole thing... I'm getting 7.04 volts through this thing...so...we got us a pimping 7N7 tube amplifier here!! 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Ok ... I opened her up ..just for @bcowen entertainment, and @therremans held my hand through the whole thing... I'm getting 7.04 volts through this thing...so...we got us a pimping 7N7 tube amplifier here!! 😁



LOL!!  If you had one of these you wouldn't even have to open the amp up.  But there are live voltages on the test tabs up top, so try not to lick it while the amp is powered up.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  If you had one of these you wouldn't even have to open the amp up.  But there are live voltages on the test tabs up top, so try not to lick it while the amp is powered up.


Your like Batman with all them nice toys... 😎


----------



## JKDJedi

Does the high heater voltage only effect the driver socket or both driver and output? 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Your like Batman with all them nice toys... 😎


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  If you had one of these you wouldn't even have to open the amp up.  But there are live voltages on the test tabs up top, so try not to lick it while the amp is powered up.


Damn! Those come in a 9 pin model? It's a total PITA trying to bias my P1


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  If you had one of these you wouldn't even have to open the amp up.  But there are live voltages on the test tabs up top, so try not to lick it while the amp is powered up.


Do you know where to buy one?


----------



## bcowen (Jan 26, 2021)

therremans said:


> Do you know where to buy one?



You just have to keep an eye out on Ebay.  The old Pomona ones are probably the best but are very expensive. The old Vectors are also quite good, and for occasional use by hobbyists like us are more than adequate. CBS also made them, and that's actually a CBS I pictured previously. Here's a Vector for an octal socket:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tub...073770?hash=item36739058ea:g:JOwAAOSwabNf9dhV


@Mr Trev I don't see anything right now for a Nova_*l*_ socket which is what you need.  The one linked below is for a Nova_*r*_ socket, and they are NOT the same (the novar is a little larger in diameter and the pins won't line up, so don't buy this one! ). But linking it just for visual reference so if you can spot one similar to this in nova_*l *_form on down the road..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-PO...712975?hash=item1cff34780f:g:F1QAAOSwrpVgC0w4


I don't know what the hell this thing is beyond an extension....I don't see any test points on it anywhere so the description is a wee bit of embellishment by the seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pomona-9-P...422000?hash=item1f1b34a870:g:V7gAAOSwJe9eXZWD


And finally, do NOT buy these. They are being made currently by some guy and they are total junk. I bought one, and the wire loops sticking out the side are like 24 gauge wire and I snapped one off the first time I used it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Octal-Tube...197110?hash=item2af43bf776:g:6OAAAOSwW4JeDX9o


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You just have to keep an eye out on Ebay.  The old Pomona ones are probably the best but are very expensive. The old Vectors are also quite good, and for occasional use by hobbyists like us are more than adequate. CBS also made them, and that's actually a CBS I pictured previously. Here's a Vector for an octal socket:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tub...073770?hash=item36739058ea:g:JOwAAOSwabNf9dhV
> 
> ...


I may or may not make a play on the first link.. dibbs


----------



## therremans

I found this one I think it would work good too https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-T80...-/143924468150?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I may or may not make a play on the first link.. dibbs



Two more CBS test adapters. Nova*l* 9-pin on the left, and 7 pinner on the right. As far as I know the 7-pin sockets are all the same, unlike the 9 pin sockets. And the 7-pin is quite handy for calibrating B&K testers if you're listening @JKDJedi .


----------



## therremans

I’m going to wait for a bit and keep watching for a cheap one.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I found this one I think it would work good too https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-T80...-/143924468150?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292



Yup.  Perfect.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I’m going to wait for a bit and keep watching for a cheap one.



You could get lucky, but most folks that have these know what they're worth. $25 is a good price, and if you can get one of the good quality NOS ones for less that's cool...but you may wait a while.

You can also buy the parts and make your own if you're handy at such things, at least for an octal socket...a noval one might be a bit more challenging.

https://www.angela.com/octal8pinbottomtooctal8pintoptubeadapterkit.aspx


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You just have to keep an eye out on Ebay.  The old Pomona ones are probably the best but are very expensive. The old Vectors are also quite good, and for occasional use by hobbyists like us are more than adequate. CBS also made them, and that's actually a CBS I pictured previously. Here's a Vector for an octal socket:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tub...073770?hash=item36739058ea:g:JOwAAOSwabNf9dhV
> 
> ...


I did find this CBS set: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-CBS-Tu...-Pin-9-Pin-Miniature-Octal-Tubes/313387631400
As it sits right now, the shipping is more than the current bid.

This past weekend I tried to MacGyver some test points myself. All I succeeded in doing was turn my amp into a radio antenna


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> I did find this CBS set: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-CBS-Tu...-Pin-9-Pin-Miniature-Octal-Tubes/313387631400
> As it sits right now, the shipping is more than the current bid.
> 
> This past weekend I tried to MacGyver some test points myself. All I succeeded in doing was turn my amp into a radio antenna


that's a lot cheaper than the $150 set I was looking at... 🙂 well well well....


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> that's a lot cheaper than the $150 set I was looking at... 🙂 well well well....



If you win the auction, you can send me the 9 pin one as a finders fee.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> If you win the auction, you can send me the 9 pin one as a finders fee.


deal


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> And finally, do NOT buy these. They are being made currently by some guy and they are total junk. I bought one, and the wire loops sticking out the side are like 24 gauge wire and I snapped one off the first time I used it.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Octal-Tube...197110?hash=item2af43bf776:g:6OAAAOSwW4JeDX9o



Man, this "adapter" looks like somebody's failed attempt at a home-made fishing lure


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Man, this "adapter" looks like somebody's failed attempt at a home-made fishing lure


😂😂


----------



## Mr Trev

In order to give credit to the OP…
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mediocre-headphones-on-wall-now-only-119-000.953401/


----------



## therremans

NEW real OCTAL TUBE SOCKET SAVER
I think it might be straight forward to take this one apart. Drill eight holes into the sidewall of the cylinder that are aligned with each pin. Then solder 8 small segments of wire or tabs near the top.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> NEW real OCTAL TUBE SOCKET SAVER
> I think it might be straight forward to take this one apart. Drill eight holes into the sidewall of the cylinder that are aligned with each pin. Then solder 8 small segments of wire or tabs near the top.



That could work....assuming you can get it apart without busting it.  I'd assume the top socket is glued to the base portion, and you'd have to desolder the base pins to get the wires loose to pull the two pieces apart.  The loose top/bottom pieces from Angela look to be an easier way to get started to me.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 27, 2021)

This a good deal ? Problem is I have no use for a quad set lmao. Also, most if not 99% of TS 7236s out there have a metal base. These are plastic. Genuine or fake ? I really want them but I can not find any info about them

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-match...-/324452420239?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

In the meantime...new arrivals


----------



## DeweyCH

Hey, something was hiding in the snow on my porch this morning:


----------



## SHIMACM

today, in the morning, I was listening to the Mullard 6080 and Sylvania vt231 combo. Excellent sound on my T1 G1.


----------



## SHIMACM (Jan 27, 2021)

Such ads are rare.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tubo-de-vacuo-Lote-Made-In-Usa-Jan-Ctl-5998-amp-JAN-CTL-5R4WGB-amp-VR-90-VT-184-amp-6080-/164668281845?hash=item2656fe93f5:g:KGwAAOSwspZgD4UA&nma=true&si=Db%2BeWuKY7JX%2FNmcu4MoN3vwAwys%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Tub...226723?hash=item2656fdbca3:g:uecAAOSwiudgD3IN


----------



## Deceneu808

Any thoughts on the plastic black base Tung Sol 7236 ? Are they genuine ?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Such ads are rare.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Tub...226723?hash=item2656fdbca3:g:uecAAOSwiudgD3IN


Someone wanted to gamble.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Any thoughts on the plastic black base Tung Sol 7236 ? Are they genuine ?


They probably are genuine but possibly an early/late design. It would be a pass for me for a few reasons.

They have a different construction and I’ve read sound dark and not like a normal Tung-Sol or Cetron 7236, you don’t want a quad, they’re overpriced and I rarely use mine.

Be patient and snag a Cetron or metal base Tung Sol for $30-$60. Yes, they are pretty rare but I paid $35 for mine.




Bonddam said:


> I bought a tube that has plastic base etched on top with 7236 silk screened on the base with 3213999 Tung Sol made In USA. *Sounds dark.* Been searching the net trying to find these no luck. Any ideas?





cddc said:


> Same as @gibosi I have never seen a Tung Sol 7236 coming with a plastic base. They always came with metal bases.
> 
> Looking at the photo you just posted, I saw more differences from a "normal" TS 7236 other than the base. The top mica in your version has spikes, while "normal" TS 7236 has pure round top mica without any spikes. The "normal" TS 7236 has rectangular box plates, while the plates on your version is not rectangular.
> 
> Check out the photos on "normal" TS 7236 here:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-15855940





Bonddam said:


> it would be cool if these are real. If real then I’d like to know the story behind them.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Hey, something was hiding in the snow on my porch this morning:


They’re a great baseline 6080, neutral, revealing and spacious. Hope you enjoy them.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> They probably are genuine but possibly an early/late design. It would be a pass for me for a few reasons.
> 
> They have a different construction and I’ve read sound dark and not like a normal Tung-Sol or Cetron 7236, you don’t want a quad, they’re overpriced and I rarely use mine.
> 
> Be patient and snag a Cetron or metal base Tung Sol for $30-$60. Yes, they are pretty rare but I paid $35 for mine.


Lucky me, I've just bought them but now I asked the seller to cancel. If not oh well.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Someone wanted to gamble.


just the 5998 alone....for that monies... I just got up .. probably would've grabbed it myself...lol.. nice!!


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Hey, something was *hiding in the snow* on my porch this morning:



Free cryo-treatment… nice


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 28, 2021)

Psvane CV-181-T-Mk2 Very fast sound, almost solid state like. Great bass, neutral mids and sharp highs ? Need to listen more




Sylvania 6SN7GT VT-231 All around neutral tube, maaaybe on the warm side but just a touch. It seems very well balanced  throughout the whole frequency range.




B65 Marconi CV1988 By far the most different of all three. Very warm, eliminates any sharp highs the DT880 tend to have. I think I've found my fav combo with the 6080. I can't stop listening


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Psvane CV-181-T-Mk2 Very fast sound, almost solid state like. Great bass, neutral mids and sharp highs ? Need to listen more
> 
> 
> Sylvania 6SN7GT VT-231 All around neutral tube, maaaybe on the warm side but just a touch. It seems very well balanced  throughout the whole frequency range.
> ...


B65 Marconi CV1988 ... Don't think I've heard that one before, is that a Brimar? The other two is what I'd expect as to your description, spot on.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> B65 Marconi CV1988 ... Don't think I've heard that one before, is that a Brimar? The other two is what I'd expect as to your description, spot on.


This right here
I took a gamble and it paid off
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264874863180


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> They probably are genuine but possibly an early/late design. It would be a pass for me for a few reasons.
> 
> They have a different construction and I’ve read sound dark and not like a normal Tung-Sol or Cetron 7236, you don’t want a quad, they’re overpriced and I rarely use mine.
> 
> Be patient and snag a Cetron or metal base Tung Sol for $30-$60. Yes, they are pretty rare but I paid $35 for mine.


Those tubes were specifically made for super computers, the ones that stood taller than us standing up. Someone figured out in the hobby they make great output tubes. That's all I got..


----------



## JKDJedi

Well, until my Variac gets here..it's 7N7 city for me folks..and not a bad thing if I say so myself... miss me some Franky Time..


----------



## therremans

*On heater center taps.* For the least hum, the heater circuit should have a ground reference. There are two ways to accomplish this.

First, you could ground one leg of the heaters. In this case, one leg would be at 6.3v, while the other would be at 0v. Vintage amp manufacturers used this strategy until the 1960s. It results in less noise than floating the heaters with no ground reference, but isn’t as quiet as the next option: installing a center tap.

In a center-tapped heater circuit, each string sees half of the 6.3v supply, because the center tap is grounded (or elevated, which is discussed later in the article). Many transformers have a center tap wire. If not, it is possible to add an artificial center tap by connecting each leg of the heaters to ground through a small resistor, around 100-200 ohms.

*On elevated heaters.* Sometimes, it is advantageous to connect the center tap to a ground reference that is greater than 0v. On all tubes, there is a maximum heater-to-cathode voltage that should not be exceeded. Otherwise, the insulation between heater and cathode will break down, introducing hum into the circuit and eventually causing the tube to fail.

Some people achieve elevated heaters by connecting the center tap to the cathode of the power tubes, which is usually around 30v. Alternatively, you can create a voltage divider in the power supply. This allows you to fine-tune the elevation voltage, because you can set the voltage divider to give you a specific number whereas the cathode voltage is dependent on the bias of the power tubes

(source)


----------



## Ad720

NOS 60s Tung Sol GTB up front and Tung Sol (most likely Chatham) in the back.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> NOS 60s Tung Sol GTB up front and Tung Sol (most likely Chatham) in the back.


looks like a Chatham. Nice combo.


----------



## Ad720 (Jan 27, 2021)

Yes. It's a nice change of pace. I have a box full of both tubes and sometimes just randomly grab one of each and see what happens but tonight I thought why not be consistent haha. I keep going back to a particular GE GTB that I have (61-43). I have a few of the GE GTB and they are a dime a dozen but there is something about this one that pairs very well with an RCA JAN6080 (55-35). That particular pair had been in here for a while.


----------



## Deceneu808

My LED is barely turned on. Usually it's like a laser beam across the room. Should I worry ? The amp works fine, quite excellent in fact


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> My LED is barely turned on. Usually it's like a laser beam across the room. Should I worry ? The amp works fine, quite excellent in fact


Looks like your amp decided to do you a favor. I always hated that blinding blue led.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> My LED is barely turned on. Usually it's like a laser beam across the room. Should I worry ? The amp works fine, quite excellent in fact



If the amp sounds fine, I wouldn't worry about it at all.  Could be a several things:

1) Did you perhaps push it back some in the hole with your other workings inside the amp?
2) Could be one of the resistors on the LED board going bad. As resistors age or begin to fail, in more cases than not they increase in value / resistance rather than decrease (which would seem more logical) unless they fail altogether. 
3) Could be the LED itself on its way out. 

But again, as long as the amp is working correctly and sounding good don't worry about it. If it completely quits at some point then we can troubleshoot it and figure it out, but it probably won't affect the sound or operation of the amp regardless.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looks like your amp decided to do you a favor. I always hated that blinding blue led.



You're just anti-blue.  

I'm still looking for purple myself.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> My LED is barely turned on. Usually it's like a laser beam across the room. Should I worry ? The amp works fine, quite excellent in fact


black tape over it , mine does the same


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-6SN7GTB-...-/383923219979?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

Well, the tube packaging is cute and all but these home made packages with free display tubes just aren’t worth the $26.67 each.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> black tape over it , mine does the same


Black cloth wire/cable tape does a great job at blocking _all_ light.. such as the kind advertised for automotive wiring harnesses.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-6SN7GTB-...-/383923219979?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
> 
> Well, the tube packaging is cute and all but these home made packages with free display tubes just aren’t worth the $26.67 each.



well well....tubes as "snacks" and packaged in tubes.  tubes in tubes.  overpriced GEs.  is this a bangy bang subsidiary?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-6SN7GTB-...-/383923219979?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
> 
> Well, the tube packaging is cute and all but these home made packages with free display tubes just aren’t worth the $26.67 each.



I think they should pay the buyer $80 to take them.  And pay for the shipping too.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think they should pay the buyer $80 to take them.  And pay for the shipping too.


I have been reading up much about tubes, filament current, plate dissipation, etc...I had no idea that GE made Hawaiian tubes that sashayed in the wind...


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I think they should pay the buyer $80 to take them.  And pay for the shipping too.



You should state just that when you hit the "Make an Offer" button.  LOL   

Well the one thing is that the tubes look like they were made in the original Ken-Rad plant.  Maybe they justify the markup that way?  Why they had to mess up a good thing is beyond me.


----------



## DeweyCH

This Raytheon 6F8G tube seems immensely bass-heavy. Is that kind of a Raytheon house sound? Bass is just too much regardless of the power tube it pairs with.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> This Raytheon 6F8G tube seems immensely bass-heavy. Is that kind of a Raytheon house sound? Bass is just too much regardless of the power tube it pairs with.


🤔 I'll have to give that one a fly this evening.. on my amp the Cwing puts out the least bass, I'll try that combo tonight


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> This Raytheon 6F8G tube seems immensely bass-heavy. Is that kind of a Raytheon house sound? Bass is just too much regardless of the power tube it pairs with.


I don’t think so. I owned two different versions (different getters), the open getter is one of the brightest tubes I own. They were very different. I remember the other being more mid focused.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> 🤔 I'll have to give that one a fly this evening.. on my amp the Cwing puts out the least bass, I'll try that combo tonight


Cwing as in a Svetlana Winged C? I'll try that, I have one of thems.


----------



## therremans

Also these must vary too as my Svetlana has the most bass emphasis out of all my power tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

With the Winged C the bass is tamed a bit.






Actually not a bad overall sound here. Not like I'm listening to some sort of crazy bass-destroyer EDM, it's just the Hamilton soundtrack.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Also these must vary too as my Svetlana has the most bass emphasis out of all my power tubes.


I think so too, mine is 1967 a good year by the way. 🙂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think so too, mine is 1967 a good year by the way. 🙂



1958's are _much_ better, for a number of reasons.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I think so too, mine is 1967 a good year by the way. 🙂


Yeah, mines paint stamped 12/15/1986. It’s just shy of a year younger than myself.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yeah, mines paint stamped 12/15/1986. It’s just shy of a year younger than myself.


I don't think that one was made in a C Winged factory, might be a replica. Is there a Cwinged logo on there?


----------



## therremans (Jan 28, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I don't think that one was made in a C Winged factory, might be a replica. Is there a Cwinged logo on there?


It’s probably not, I was wrong to call it that then. It’s just a regular 80s svetlana 6as7g? Where do I look for the logo?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It’s probably not, I was wrong to call it that then. It’s just a regular old svetlana 6as7g? Where do I look for the logo?


it might be .. did a quick look, they closed in 2012.. so it could very well be ..
https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/svetlana-winged-c-valves/


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, mines paint stamped 12/15/1986. It’s just shy of a year younger than myself.



Dang young'uns.  I think 1986 is when I first tried crack NOS tubes, and you can see the results of the addiction.


----------



## DeweyCH

I think my Winged C is a '68


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Dang young'uns.  I think 1986 is when I first tried crack NOS tubes, and you can see the results of the addiction.


Haha well hey, it was the 80s. I can now look forward to another 35 years of hobby addiction


----------



## therremans

My tube doesn't have any Winged C logo. But there is a clue in the date code, however I am making this up. 

*B9G *= ?
*WC *= Winged C plant
*6 *= 1986 (?)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> My tube doesn't have any Winged C logo. But there is a clue in the date code, however I am making this up.
> 
> *B9G *= ?
> *WC *= Winged C plant
> *6 *= 1986 (?)



I can't see the getter holder. Is it a UFO style?  If not, that's probably _not_ a Russian tube.  Perhaps it was actually made in the UK...who knows?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I can't see the getter holder. Is it a UFO style?  If not, that's probably _not_ a Russian tube.  Perhaps it was actually made in the UK...who knows?


Ha, yes it has UFO getters.


----------



## JKDJedi

Winged C markings from tubes that come out of the Winged C Factory..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Winged C markings from tubes that come out of the Winged C Factory..



Svetlana.  Did any other Russian factory ever make this tube?  Serious question...I've never seen anything_ except _Svetlana.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Svetlana.  Did any other Russian factory ever make this tube?  Serious question...I've never seen anything_ except _Svetlana.



Verbatim from the Tubestore.com..

_ " Production of the SED Winged “C” tubes has come to an end. We have purchased as much stock as available from them that was not factory seconds. We were offered factory seconds at a lower cost however we declined. We do know these factory seconds have entered the marketplace". _

I think..."think" they were the only ones who made these. Where these other similar type tubes came from... I don't know. It appears that every tube that did come out of that factory (SED) came with that famous WInged C logo on it.


----------



## Galapac (Jan 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Svetlana.  Did any other Russian factory ever make this tube?  Serious question...I've never seen anything_ except _Svetlana.



There was the Sovtek right?


----------



## JKDJedi

And..... my *super bass O matic adapter of a thingy* arrived today!!!! Thanks @therremans


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> There was the Sovtek right?



Sovtek was/is just a marketing brand. They don't actually manufacture tubes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And..... my *super bass O matic adapter of a thingy* arrived today!!!! Thanks @therremans



Awesome!!  Now you can run some KT-150's up front!

(j/k...please don't do that ).


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> There was the Sovtek right?


Not the expert, shooting from the hip here, and going off literature, I'm gonna use my last "lifeline" and call on @Paladin79 our resident expert here to chime in on the answer to these questions... my guess is anything with the Winged C logo was only made in the St Petersburg factory.  *Svetlana Electron Devices. *When they closed everything got sold off to other factories, That's my final answer and lets see how far off I am..


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Awesome!!  Now you can run some KT-150's up front!
> 
> (j/k...please don't do that ).


Dammit, know you got me wondering… what's the worst that could happen

@JKDJedi 
my compliments on your knob. (let's see Freud analyse that)


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Sovtek was/is just a marketing brand. They don't actually manufacture tubes.


So they were just a rebranded/relabeled Svetlana or a knockoff?


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> So they were just a rebranded/relabeled Svetlana or a knockoff?


Box is relabeled. Tube still have the Svetlana logo on it.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> So they were just a rebranded/relabeled Svetlana or a knockoff?



Most likely a Svetlana.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Dammit, know you got me wondering… what's the worst that could happen



Beyond melting the transformer?  Probably not too much.  Kinda doubt the transformer's heater windings for the 6SN7 at 600 milliamps can handle 4 amps of current draw (you'd need two KT-150's at 2 amps each as they're single element pentodes), but I could be wrong.     



Mr Trev said:


> @JKDJedi
> my compliments on your knob. (let's see Freud analyse that)



I'm thinking there's some psychological significance to that red ring.....


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Beyond melting the transformer?  Probably not too much.  Kinda doubt the transformer's heater windings for the 6SN7 at 600 milliamps can handle 4 amps of current draw (you'd need two KT-150's at 2 amps each as they're single element pentodes), but I could be wrong.



That might be kinda cool. I've seen some pretty spectacular transformer fire videos. Could make you a youtube star…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That might be kinda cool. I've seen some pretty spectacular transformer fire videos. Could make you a youtube star…



You do it and post the video here first. I'll give it the first "like".


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You do it and post the video here first. I'll give it the first "like".


I'd do it but my channel is mostly mountain biking.. 😏


----------



## therremans

Does anyone need a pair of Sylvania 6J5GTs Gray Plates? - Link


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Not the expert, shooting from the hip here, and going off literature, I'm gonna use my last "lifeline" and call on @Paladin79 our resident expert here to chime in on the answer to these questions... my guess is anything with the Winged C logo was only made in the St Petersburg factory.  *Svetlana Electron Devices. *When they closed everything got sold off to other factories, That's my final answer and lets see how far off I am..


As far as I know you are correct and that is indeed a Svetlana winged C.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Does anyone need a pair of Sylvania 6J5GTs Gray Plates? - Link


Sure why the heck not


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> And..... my *super bass O matic adapter of a thingy* arrived today!!!! Thanks @therremans


What does this convert to the 6SN7 socket?


----------



## DeweyCH

And can anyone confirm that I'm reading this right - my Winged C is from '68?


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> I'd do it but my channel is mostly mountain biking.. 😏


Well here's your first problem, that's what's known as a "street." Mountains are much pointier.


----------



## gazzington

Im thinking of getting a darkvoice to use with my hd650 and dt880 600ohm.  Which tubes would you rec i get for it?  Nothing too insanly priced!


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> And can anyone confirm that I'm reading this right - my Winged C is from '68?


68 is the year.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> And can anyone confirm that I'm reading this right - my Winged C is from '68?



Yup, 1968.


----------



## DeweyCH

gazzington said:


> Im thinking of getting a darkvoice to use with my hd650 and dt880 600ohm.  Which tubes would you rec i get for it?  Nothing too insanly priced!


First tubes I got were an old NOS RCA 6AS7G for $25 and a new Shuguang CV181-Z for $45. Both are really nice for the price, and I keep going back to the Shuguang every so often even though my collection of tubes for the 6SN7 socket has gotten somewhat out of control.


----------



## Paladin79

gazzington said:


> Im thinking of getting a darkvoice to use with my hd650 and dt880 600ohm.  Which tubes would you rec i get for it?  Nothing too insanly priced!


Svetlana winged C and a Foton 6sn7 equivalent, 1950's if you can find one. Best bang for the buck IMHO. Another choice is the RCA 6as7G, nearly the same tube as the Svetlana but often top getter.


----------



## bcowen

gazzington said:


> Im thinking of getting a darkvoice to use with my hd650 and dt880 600ohm.  Which tubes would you rec i get for it?  Nothing too insanly priced!



Define 'insane'.  This is an audio forum.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well here's your first problem, that's what's known as a "street." Mountains are much pointier.



That's a Texas mountain.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That's a Texas mountain.


As a St. Louisan by birth I call that the Kansas Ski Slope


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> As far as I know you are correct and that is indeed a Svetlana winged C.


😁 I get a Gold Star!


----------



## gazzington

Where’s the best place to buy these tubes? I’m completely new to tube amps!


----------



## DeweyCH

gazzington said:


> Where’s the best place to buy these tubes? I’m completely new to tube amps!


Ebay typically. Or here in the "Cables, Speakers, Accessories for Sale/Trade" forum


----------



## bcowen

gazzington said:


> Where’s the best place to buy these tubes? I’m completely new to tube amps!



If you're totally new to tubes, I'd suggest NOT buying stuff on Ebay and go to a good dealer, at least until you get some familiarity and know what to look for (and potential warning signs).  Am I correct to assume that with your location listed as Wales that you're in the UK?  If so, a couple recommendations below. Both are good vendors that are honest about what they sell and charge reasonable prices. You might find stuff cheaper on Ebay, but you might not get what you're paying for...or worse.

https://www.langrex.co.uk/

https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp


----------



## therremans

Just putting this out there, if anyone sees a good 1950s winged c at a fair price. Please DM me the link. Appreciate it!


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Just putting this out there, if anyone sees a good 1950s winged c at a fair price. Please DM me the link. Appreciate it!


I'll keep an eye out, what's a fair price?


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Just putting this out there, if anyone sees a good 1950s winged c at a fair price. Please DM me the link. Appreciate it!


I have been promised more 50's winged C's but they are coming out of Russia so it will take a while. If I get spares I will PM you.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I'll keep an eye out, what's a fair price?


$6


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have been promised more 50's winged C's but they are coming out of Russia so it will take a while. If I get spares I will PM you.


add me to that list please


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> $6


Fair to the pay-er, not to the pay-ee


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 29, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> add me to that list please


LOL not for $6 bucks though, but then you sent me a power tube so I always return favors, even with @bcowen on rare occasion.

I will most likely send a Svetlana winged C and Foton 6sn7 to @sam6550a early next week along with this loaner amp, and appropriate headphones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> LOL not for $6 bucks though, but then you sent me a power tube so I always return favors, even with @bcowen on rare occasion.
> 
> I will most likely send a Svetlana winged C and Foton 6sn7 to @sam6550a early next week along with this loaner amp, and appropriate headphones.


Liking the wood grain there, excellent amp, no distortion at any sound level output, the longer it sits with me the higher my appreciation of this amp gets. Kudos to the builder.


----------



## SHIMACM

I pulled the trigger. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/402665177355


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Liking the wood grain there, excellent amp, no distortion at any sound level output, the longer it sits with me the higher my appreciation of this amp gets. Kudos to the builder.


I was thinking the same thing about the wood. What kind?


SHIMACM said:


> I pulled the trigger.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/402665177355


Nice find. I bought these from this same seller. I’m still waiting for them to arrive.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I was thinking the same thing about the wood. What kind?
> 
> Nice find. I bought these from this same seller. I’m still waiting for them to arrive.



Beautiful tubes!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Completely off topic but does that "Winged C" apply to EL34 as well?? Asking for a friend...   

I'm still stuck on my Raytheon 6SN7GTB from weeks ago, really like it.

@JKDJedi Did you find one yet? I may have an extra!😂


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 29, 2021)

Ya'll made me pull out my Svetlana. By the looks of it it's a '87 production ? Paid 22$ for it.



So anyways I started rolling out of curiosity. Be aware I'm a total amateur when it comes to judging subtle differences in tubes. I literally just got the Darkvoice 3 months ago.
Because somebody else just asked about what tubes to get as a starter pack I thought to lay my amateur impressions. Subjectively speaking all tubes regardless of NOS of new production DO sound different than solid state amplifiers but do not expect a 100% change in the sound. More or less it's a preference thing, the DAC itself and obviously the headphones. One tube can sound Godly on one pair of headphones but meh on others.
All tubes tested have at least a 30 hour burn-in so not much but still enough to make a quick judgement
The headphones I used are the Sennheiser HD600 new production model.



 *Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB* new production (19 09 written on mine) - paid 38 $
Crispy on the outside and creamy on the inside. Excellent bass extension. Not very wide but spot on imaging. Best cheap upgrade over stock tubes.



 *Psvane UK-6SN7* - paid 67 $
First thing I noticed the bass kicks harder than the Tung-Sol. Crispy sound. Again not very wide sound stage. I mean HD600 are not very wide sounding headphones but still. I'm beginning to think the Winged C is the culprit here. Good detail retrival on this one here.



 *Psvane CV 181-T-MK2* - paid 170 $
Very fast sounding tube like I mentioned in an earlier post. Excellent bass just like the non-"premium" Psvane. Almost solid state like but to some extent it still makes the HD600 sound wider than they are. I mean it sounds like whiskey and raw steak. It could be a good thing if you are in the mood for it. In one word. Katana. Update : It becomes gooey when you really turn up the volume. The louder, the more the tube is present. Maybe with time and some more burn-in it will settle in to it's sound. I'm not giving up on it.



 *Sylvania 6SN7WGTA* - paid 58 $
Dark as in dry ?. Not lacking in the bass department but less than the above new production tubes. VERY GOOD midrange with excellent vocals. Highs roll off quick sooo you might think less details but it comes off as a relaxed sound. Really just a mid-week tube to listen after work I'd say. My fav pairing so far with the Winged C



 *Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7GT VT-231* - paid 102 $
I'm holding my thoughts on this one. Warm and very balanced throughout the whole frequency range. You want bass, mids & highs ? This the one to get. I still preffer the above combo but that's just my personal preference.



 *B65 M.W.T. Marconi CV 1988 6SN7GT* - paid 137 $
Not as dark as the Sylvania WGTA but veeery warm sounding. I'm still amazed at this tube and how different it's presentation is. I think you can pop in any power tube and it's gonna pair good. I may buy a box of these just to be safe and to last me two lifetimes.

Overall my fav combo with the *Svetlana 6AS7G* is the *Sylvania 6SN7WGTA*.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Deceneu808 said:


> Ya'll made me pull out my Svetlana. By the looks of it it's a '87 production ? Paid 22$ for it.
> 
> So anyways I started rolling out of curiosity. Be aware I'm a total amateur when it comes to judging subtle differences in tubes. I literally just got the Darkvoice 3 months ago.
> Because somebody else just asked about what tubes to get as a starter pack I thought to lay my amateur impressions. Subjectively speaking all tubes regardless of NOS of new production DO sound different than solid state amplifiers but do not expect a 100% change in the sound. More or less it's a preference thing, the DAC itself and obviously the headphones. One tube can sound Godly on one pair of headphones but meh on others.
> ...


That was an awesome primer! Thanks for that, appreciated!


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I was thinking the same thing about the wood. What kind?
> 
> That is lacewood with rainbow poplar splines.
> 
> Nice find. I bought these from this same seller. I’m still waiting for them to arrive.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Completely off topic but does that "Winged C" apply to EL34 as well?? Asking for a friend...
> 
> I'm still stuck on my Raytheon 6SN7GTB from weeks ago, really like it.
> 
> @JKDJedi Did you find one yet? I may have an extra!😂


if that logo is in there yes... C in Russian means S... *Svetlana*


----------



## therremans

Spalted maple with filler added. Would look great with the copper patina..


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde (Jan 29, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> if that logo is in there yes... C in Russian means S... *Svetlana*


Thanks @JKDJedi In way over my head here with tubes n' amps lol !

Ooops PM me if you wanna give that Raytheon Short bottle a run..


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Thanks @JKDJedi In way over my head here with tubes n' amps lol !
> 
> Ooops PM me if you wanna give that Raytheon Short bottle a run..


I have one, thanks for the offer my friend. 🙂


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 29, 2021)

therremans said:


> Spalted maple with filler added. Would look great with the copper patina..


I have plenty of spalted maple but I am waiting for warm weather to build an amp case with it. I prefer to work outside with such wood, and definitely when working with copper patinas. Some of my work with spalted maple.



Some handy tips for making, handling, and machining spalted wood:


Protect: I can’t over state this.  You must wear a dust mask and use an air filter.  Why take chances?
Keep it sealed: While spalting in your bathroom works well, make sure the wood is in a plastic tub or plastic bag that is sealed.  It shouldn’t be air tight, but it should restrict air flow.  The less air flow you have, the fewer spores are being circulated.  Also, sealed containers will help cut down on that rotting wood smell.
Double up: on protection when sanding spalted wood.  That dust isn’t just wood, its also fungi.  Make sure you are wearing goggles when you are reducing spalted wood into particulate.  I wear goggles when sanding even clear wood, because I’m not a big fan of wood in my eyes.
Don’t panic!: I realize that the prospect of mold in the lungs isn’t pretty, but the world is full of professional mycologists who have been working with fungi for years, and are perfectly healthy.  However I’ve heard about several woodworkers who, after 20 or so years in the shop (and working with spalted wood), have horrible lung and eye problems.  My first question is always did they wear a mask?, quickly followed by how often did they wear their mask?  So before someone goes blaming fungi for respiratory problems, I always suggest that they take a quick look at how much wood they’ve inhaled along with those spores.


----------



## JKDJedi

and huge thanks to @bcowen for the link on that adapter... in da mail! 😁


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have plenty of spalted maple but I am waiting for warm weather to build an amp case with it. I prefer to work outside with such wood, and definitely when working with copper patinas. Some of my work with spalted maple.
> 
> 
> Some handy tips for making, handling, and machining spalted wood:
> ...



So there *are* advantages to cardboard then!  I promise I'll still wear a mask if I sand it though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So there *are* advantages to cardboard then!  I promise I'll still wear a mask if I sand it though.


Your Lone Ranger mask does not count!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Your Lone Ranger mask does not count!


I thought it was a gimp mask


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I thought it was a gimp mask


A proper mask:


----------



## JKDJedi

Well, I just had the most bizarre lunch today, my heart is still racing, three car lengths away from an intersection a block away from work I hear a cop pull someone over, a quick cherp from the siren (I could not see anything as a 6-7 ft brick wall was blocking my view) (I later found out a couple of under cover cops had pulled over a red truck) So I hear this quick squelch of a siren....then 9 pops...like pops that sound like a gun.. I'm like..was that gun shots!? then right away a barrage of guns begin popping off and an occasional shutgun blast or two..I'm three cars away from the corner where all this is happening and am wondering what the hell is gonna come running around the corner!? I flipped a U like Starsky And Hutch...was not gonna find out... I then had to pull over as my driving became erratic with my heart pacing bad..turned to my left and see a man ducking low against the wall... this was a real.. the guns eventully stopped and cops racing in from all corners... So after checking in with loved ones and my job, I decided to turn around and try to sneak through the barricade to get to work, when I got to the lights the cops were having people just turn around but I just had to take a peak as to what was going on..what I saw was a red truck off the street into a wall on the sidewalk, Took me half hour to finally get back to work, news confirmed that there was an officer involved shoot out, from what I heard.. that dude went down in a blaze of glory.. wow, my heart is still racing... there's picks of his body on snapchat.. La Quinta, Ca. what a freakn day


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Well, I just had the most bizarre lunch today, my heart is still racing, three car lengths away from an intersection a block away from work I hear a cop pull someone over, a quick cherp from the siren (I could not see anything as a 6-7 ft brick wall was blocking my view) (I later found out a couple of under cover cops had pulled over a red truck) So I hear this quick squelch of a siren....then 9 pops...like pops that sound like a gun.. I'm like..was that gun shots!? then right away a barrage of guns begin popping off and an occasional shutgun blast or two..I'm three cars away from the corner where all this is happening and am wondering what the hell is gonna come running around the corner!? I flipped a U like Starsky And Hutch...was not gonna find out... I then had to pull over as my driving became erratic with my heart pacing bad..turned to my left and see a man ducking low against the wall... this was a real.. the guns eventully stopped and cops racing in from all corners... So after checking in with loved ones and my job, I decided to turn around and try to sneak through the barricade to get to work, when I got to the lights the cops were having people just turn around but I just had to take a peak as to what was going on..what I saw was a red truck off the street into a wall on the sidewalk, Took me half hour to finally get back to work, news confirmed that there was an officer involved shoot out, from what I heard.. that dude went down in a blaze of glory.. wow, my heart is still racing... there's picks of his body on snapchat.. La Quinta, Ca. what a freakn day


wow


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> A proper mask:


CLASSIC


Paladin79 said:


> A proper mask:


The Queens Gambit!! Most Excellent Series... loved it.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> CLASSIC
> 
> The Queens Gambit!! Most Excellent Series... loved it.


 One of the best things I have seen in years, and I am a fan of the author Walter Tevis who wrote the Hustler, Color of Money, etc.  Also my last tournament game was held in Lexington where much of this is supposed to take place. The actors were making real moves, even in the lightning games. Imagine learning your lines as well as the series of chess moves just before a scene. I have played through most all games in the series and I was totally impressed with the chess sequences.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well, I just had the most bizarre lunch today, my heart is still racing, three car lengths away from an intersection a block away from work I hear a cop pull someone over, a quick cherp from the siren (I could not see anything as a 6-7 ft brick wall was blocking my view) (I later found out a couple of under cover cops had pulled over a red truck) So I hear this quick squelch of a siren....then 9 pops...like pops that sound like a gun.. I'm like..was that gun shots!? then right away a barrage of guns begin popping off and an occasional shutgun blast or two..I'm three cars away from the corner where all this is happening and am wondering what the hell is gonna come running around the corner!? I flipped a U like Starsky And Hutch...was not gonna find out... I then had to pull over as my driving became erratic with my heart pacing bad..turned to my left and see a man ducking low against the wall... this was a real.. the guns eventully stopped and cops racing in from all corners... So after checking in with loved ones and my job, I decided to turn around and try to sneak through the barricade to get to work, when I got to the lights the cops were having people just turn around but I just had to take a peak as to what was going on..what I saw was a red truck off the street into a wall on the sidewalk, Took me half hour to finally get back to work, news confirmed that there was an officer involved shoot out, from what I heard.. that dude went down in a blaze of glory.. wow, my heart is still racing... there's picks of his body on snapchat.. La Quinta, Ca. what a freakn day



Wow man.  Glad you're OK!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I thought it was a gimp mask



I just unfriended you on Facebook.  Well, I'm going to anyway as soon as I remember my password.  Haven't been on there in 5 years. But you just wait, wait I tell 'ya.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Wow man.  Glad you're OK!


everyone is upset that this photographer didn't get any pics!! lol... that's the joke of the day here at my shop..." you just had one job"!! 😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> everyone is upset that this photographer didn't get any pics!! lol... that's the joke of the day here at my shop..." you just had one job"!! 😂



 

To which the response should be: "My phone doesn't take good pictures. I obviously need a new company iPhone 12 with 5G."


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> To which the response should be: "My phone doesn't take good pictures. I obviously need a new company iPhone 12 with 5G."


😂😂😂


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I just unfriended you on Facebook.  Well, I'm going to anyway as soon as I remember my password.  Haven't been on there in 5 years. But you just wait, wait I tell 'ya.



Hey thanks for the heads up. I couldn't be bothered with the Facebooks, but I'll set up an account just so you can unfriend me - that's just the kind of nice Canadian guy I am.



JKDJedi said:


> Well, I just had the most bizarre lunch today, my heart is still racing, three car lengths away from an intersection a block away from work I hear a cop pull someone over, a quick cherp from the siren (I could not see anything as a 6-7 ft brick wall was blocking my view) (I later found out a couple of under cover cops had pulled over a red truck) So I hear this quick squelch of a siren....then 9 pops...like pops that sound like a gun.. I'm like..was that gun shots!? then right away a barrage of guns begin popping off and an occasional shutgun blast or two..I'm three cars away from the corner where all this is happening and am wondering what the hell is gonna come running around the corner!? I flipped a U like Starsky And Hutch...was not gonna find out... I then had to pull over as my driving became erratic with my heart pacing bad..turned to my left and see a man ducking low against the wall... this was a real.. the guns eventully stopped and cops racing in from all corners... So after checking in with loved ones and my job, I decided to turn around and try to sneak through the barricade to get to work, when I got to the lights the cops were having people just turn around but I just had to take a peak as to what was going on..what I saw was a red truck off the street into a wall on the sidewalk, Took me half hour to finally get back to work, news confirmed that there was an officer involved shoot out, from what I heard.. that dude went down in a blaze of glory.. wow, my heart is still racing... there's picks of his body on snapchat.. La Quinta, Ca. what a freakn day



Jeez, the most exciting thing to happen to me today was the load got unbalanced in the new washing machine


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Jeez, the most exciting thing to happen to me today was the load got unbalanced in the new washing machine



We're glad you're safe too.  Well, the other guys are anyway.


----------



## DeweyCH

I now have a pair of Auteurs to take advantage of this amp. This should be fun.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Hey thanks for the heads up. I couldn't be bothered with the Facebooks, but I'll set up an account just so you can unfriend me - that's just the kind of nice Canadian guy I am.
> 
> 
> 
> Jeez, the most exciting thing to happen to me today was the load got unbalanced in the new





DeweyCH said:


> I now have a pair of Auteurs to take advantage of this amp. This should be fun.


pics!!! I want these same headphones, anxious to hear your thoughts on the pairing!!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I now have a pair of Auteurs to take advantage of this amp. This should be fun.



I'll be reading up on this today, so please minimize the interruptions.


----------



## DeweyCH

I’ll get some pics and thoughts up later this evening once the hurricane goes to bed. I’m very excited, these are one of three sets made with almond wood, that I got during ZMF November.


----------



## DeweyCH




----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


>



*B E A U T I F U L!!!*


----------



## bcowen

bcowen said:


> *B E A U T I F U L!!!*





DeweyCH said:


>



Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


You're nervous? Imagine how the cans feel.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


I 2nd that motion, get them away from the ZMF's!!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


The box cutter isn’t the only thing that looks sharp...


----------



## Deceneu808

Morse code. It's trying to tell me something


----------



## bcowen (Jan 31, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Morse code. It's trying to tell me something




If I had to guess, it'd be that you have a loose/bad solder connection somewhere.  But if it's keeping sync with the music, then I'd leave it alone just for the sake of coolness.   

Seriously, see if you can discover any correlation between tapping on the top of the chassis and the blinking.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> If I had to guess, it'd be that you have a loose/bad solder connection somewhere.  But if it's keeping sync with the music, then I'd leave it alone just for the sake of coolness.
> 
> Seriously, see if you can discover any correlation between tapping on the top of the chassis and the blinking.



I've tried tapping with no effect. At first I thought it was the beat of the music but it does it randomly. Beat of the music it is 😜


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried tapping with no effect. At first I thought it was the beat of the music but it does it randomly. Beat of the music it is 😜



If it was just staying dim, I'd suspect a resistor going bad. But the way it's blinking, I'd suspect a bad solder connection (perhaps a marginal solder job from the factory). If you have a soldering iron, I'd try reheating each of the solder connections on the LED board. I don't have mine open right now, but IIRC the solder pads for that LED circuit board are accessible without physically removing it.  I know @therremans replaced his LED...perhaps he can lend further suggestions.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> If it was just staying dim, I'd suspect a resistor going bad. But the way it's blinking, I'd suspect a bad solder connection (perhaps a marginal solder job from the factory). If you have a soldering iron, I'd try reheating each of the solder connections on the LED board. I don't have mine open right now, but IIRC the solder pads for that LED circuit board are accessible without physically removing it.  I know @therremans replaced his LED...perhaps he can lend further suggestions.


if I push down on the 6sn7 socket the led lights up so yup, weak solder connection, next time I open her up I'll zap it.


----------



## JKDJedi

and....I left her on all night!! lol, well if she wasn't broken in..she is now.. I must've been really tired last night.


----------



## therremans

Yeah there’s two pads you could heat up where the heaters go into it. And then the smaller pads for the LED leads. Use lower heat and a pointed tip.


----------



## therremans

I will be installing one of these when it arrives. 6V, 8mm, red.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> if I push down on the 6sn7 socket the led lights up so yup, weak solder connection, next time I open her up I'll zap it.



Wait....your LED is acting up too?


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 31, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> if I push down on the 6sn7 socket the led lights up so yup, weak solder connection, next time I open her up I'll zap it.


It stopped doing it now. It's back to normal but I always know I can count on you guys as DIY warranty


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Wait....your LED is acting up too?


yeah


----------



## therremans (Jan 31, 2021)

*7N7 Loctal Tall Bottle*






New arrivals. Tall body chrome dome 7N7 loctal/loktal that are pretty rare to come by. I’ve been doing a little research on these and haven't found anything that credible but will give you my summary. A lot of people assume that the loctal was designed for WW2 because of it's locking design, but it actually predates the war. Sylvania was the main manufacturer for these and would use the word _Loktal _in their advertising. National Union supposedly also made them but in much smaller quantities before the design was dropped. The loktal first appeared in late 1938 or early 1939 and was Sylvania's answer to RCA's _lock-in_ octal type. I assume these were aimed at automobile use as well as mobile consumer radios. Philco stopped using RCA lock-in designs in their radios and switched to Loktal in 39'. I believe the loctal was used along with 6SN7GT but was soon discontinued as manufacturers/consumers preferred the 6SN7. So by the time the 6SN7GTA and GTB revisions came around, the loctal design was abandoned and never received new redesigns to improve quality and reliability. Here is a well written write up on them.

_"Loktal tubes were developed prior to WW-2 by Sylvania (with a lot of prompting from Philco) to thwart RCA's octal tubes. Very few loktals were ever used in military gear, which has to be able to withstand tropical climates. When tested for high humidity survival, Loktals were a complete disaster; within a few months the tube bases would be so badly corroded to the sockets that the tubes could not be replaced without damage._

_Up until WW-2, Philco was the largest manufacturer of OEM and aftermarket car radios in the world. They promoted Loktals as being less likely to shake out of their sockets on rough roads. Economies of scale being what they are, it made more sense for them to use the Loktals in household radios too, rather than one line of tubes for home radios and a different line for the road. RCA had problems with octals in mobile use initially because the octal tube spec initially said that unused pins could be omitted from the bases of tubes. With four or five pins, an octal tube is wobbly and likely to come out of its socket, especially if mounted in an inverted position. But with seven or eight pins, the forces required to knock the tubes out of their sockets are so great that other damage would likely occur first. RCA stopped eliminating pins and the problem was solved, but by then Loktals were on the scene. (Despite shortages and rationing of materials during the war, you will not find military issue octal tubes without all eight pins in their bases.)_

_Loktals did have a couple of innovative things going for them, however. The glass button base with steel pins was a major step forward and in miniaturized forms was adopted for most subsequent tube types. With their smaller construction and the button bases, they opened the door to higher frequencies."

- __Chris108  _

@bcowen found these years ago and talked them up. He also called them the frankentube.
@JKDJedi sent me a couple of these, one gloss black and one gray matte plates. One is labeled by Lansdale for military applications.

6SN7 electrically equivalent:
_Amplification factor = 20
Plate resistance = 7kOhms
Heater voltage = 6.3V @ .6A_

I personally prefer the sound of the gray plates with a 5998 output tube as it wakes it up a bit with better high end detail and lower extension. If you don’t have a 5998 or 7236, I would try the black plates first as they’re a little more naturally detailed but lack the lush midrange.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Oh, and please get that box cutter away from them.  You're making me nervous.


Instructions unclear, shaved the Auteurs


----------



## JKDJedi

So my right channel is going in and out again...    and seems to happen only when playing with 7236 tubes.. weird. and there as I'm writing this the right channel pops back on.. jumped out of my seat... gonna roll a 6as7g and see what happens..


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> So my right channel is going in and out again...    and seems to happen only when playing with 7236 tubes.. weird. and there as I'm writing this the right channel pops back on.. jumped out of my seat... gonna roll a 6as7g and see what happens..


Are you running any form of adapter in the driver socket? Try running a 6sn7 while diagnosing the issue.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Are you running any form of adapter in the driver socket? Try running a 6sn7 while diagnosing the issue.


it's happened before, and always with the 7236, I'll try just running a 6sn7 for week


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So my right channel is going in and out again...    and seems to happen only when playing with 7236 tubes.. weird. and there as I'm writing this the right channel pops back on.. jumped out of my seat... gonna roll a 6as7g and see what happens..



I have a 7236 lit up in the DV right now with a mini-me companion.  No issues now or before. But I'm using a Cetron...is your 7236 a Cetron or a Tung Sol?

Getting ready to roll some 12AU7's in the driver seat.  See what happens.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I have a 7236 lit up in the DV right now with a mini-me companion.  No issues now or before. But I'm using a Cetron...is your 7236 a Cetron or a Tung Sol?
> 
> Getting ready to roll some 12AU7's in the driver seat.  See what happens.


Sylvania 7236 with (Sylvania) Admiral staggered plates 6SN7GT, probably my favorite poor man's tube.. Darkvoice only wants to work with the 7236 this weekend.. so there she'll remain.


----------



## Pimmsley (Feb 1, 2021)

Can anyone tell me the possible manufacturer of this 6SN7GTB of mine ? 50's maybe?
No printing left on the base... nothing I can see on the glass.

Cheers


----------



## therremans

Pimmsley said:


> Can anyone tell me the possible manufacturer of this 6SN7GTB of mine ? 50's maybe?
> No printing left on the base... nothing I can see on the glass.
> 
> Cheers


Likely 1956 to early 60s
Raytheon made (i think), spiked round micas, ladder plates


----------



## Pimmsley

therremans said:


> Likely 1956 to early 60s
> Raytheon made (i think), spiked round micas, ladder plates


Thank you ! Sounds great.


----------



## Paladin79

Drop once again has Darkvoice amps for $200 and I have one on the way. I have heard one that I repaired and have a pretty good idea on the upgrades I will make. I also hope to put it in a larger cabinet to make room for my changes. Something along these lines perhaps depending on how the case comes apart. Worst case, I will add a new top plate and ditch the old cabinet and it may end up looking a bit like this:



Or tubes inline like this.


----------



## JKDJedi

Pimmsley said:


> Can anyone tell me the possible manufacturer of this 6SN7GTB of mine ? 50's maybe?
> No printing left on the base... nothing I can see on the glass.
> 
> Cheers


nevermind the tubes...tell us about them nice speakers you hit there in the background.. 😁


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Drop once again has Darkvoice amps for $200 and I have one on the way. I have heard one that I repaired and have a pretty good idea on the upgrades I will make. I also hope to put it in a larger cabinet to make room for my changes. Something along these lines perhaps depending on how the case comes apart. Worst case, I will add a new top plate and ditch the old cabinet and it may end up looking a bit like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Or tubes inline like this.


Once you're done will there be any DV left?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Once you're done will there be any DV left?


The transformer and its cover for sure. It they used quality resistors I would most likely leave those. I have my own designs for preamp out and I will look at theirs more closely. One of the fixes that have been floated is to disconnect the pre-amp out for better sound lol. I will closely examine the power supply and I may make changes there other than just part quality. I will only change things where I can hear and measure an audible difference. One way or the other though, I will allow enough room to make any changes I want to make. I have never been a huge fan of 100k pots and I may go with lower resistance single gang pots.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Drop once again has Darkvoice amps for $200 and I have one on the way. I have heard one that I repaired and have a pretty good idea on the upgrades I will make. I also hope to put it in a larger cabinet to make room for my changes. Something along these lines perhaps depending on how the case comes apart. Worst case, I will add a new top plate and ditch the old cabinet and it may end up looking a bit like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Or tubes inline like this.


The Darkvoice in a black stained wood case could be great. If it were mine, I’d want to keep it to its original identity but in the larger housing. So items like the front and rear plates could be lowered/moved recessed and mounted into the wood panels. So there’s no question that it’s a reimagined Darkvoice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2021)

therremans said:


> The Darkvoice in a black stained wood case could be great. If it were mine, I’d want to keep it to its original identity but in the larger housing. So items like the front and rear plates could be lowered/moved recessed and mounted into the wood panels. So there’s no question that it’s a reimagined Darkvoice.


That makes good sense but then I have my own preferences on wood of course. It has been a while since I opened one up. I do like to use 3/4 inch thick wood just to add some weight to the amp and keep vibration down. Here is a previous dark wood finish I used but it is more of a piano black.




That used to be a Bottlehead Crack but I knew before I touched it I did not want to be reaching around tubes to access pots, jacks or AC switch. At least the DV uses a clean top. Once again I used the original transformer.    Maybe the sockets and solder lugs as well, I forget since I gave this one away. Mine is steampunk and I modified headphones and built a headphone stand to match. I have a tendency to look at things as they might be, rather than what they are. 






After many years in electronics, it is more about the woodworking and appearance for me. I know the basis of the amp and do not advise anyone to follow my lead.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The transformer and its cover for sure. It they used quality resistors I would most likely leave those. I have my own designs for preamp out and I will look at theirs more closely. One of the fixes that have been floated is to disconnect the pre-amp out for better sound lol. I will closely examine the power supply and I may make changes there other than just part quality. I will only change things where I can hear and measure an audible difference. One way or the other though, I will allow enough room to make any changes I want to make. I have never been a huge fan of 100k pots and I may go with lower resistance single gang pots.


With all do respect to the Darkvoice, it is an entry level amp and a great one at that, building an amp around it seems to be a step backwards when you have a great thing going with the Incubus.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> The transformer and its cover for sure. It they used quality resistors I would most likely leave those. I have my own designs for preamp out and I will look at theirs more closely. One of the fixes that have been floated is to disconnect the pre-amp out for better sound lol. I will closely examine the power supply and I may make changes there other than just part quality. I will only change things where I can hear and measure an audible difference. One way or the other though, I will allow enough room to make any changes I want to make. I have never been a huge fan of 100k pots and I may go with lower resistance single gang pots.



Cool. One of the things that does leave me scratching my head about mods is "how much is too much?" I've read about Grado mods where the only stock piece left is the spring steel from the headband. Can you even call them Grados anymore? Nevermind some of the things I've read about people modding laptop computers.
Don't get me wrong, I love reading about what you guys are doing, and one day when I have a more appropriate set of headphones (any chance one of the things you're modding is lower impedence compatibility) I plan on jumping onboard myself. But I would like to keep the "essence" of the DV intact.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> With all do respect to the Darkvoice, it is an entry level amp and a great one at that, building an amp around it seems to be a step backwards when you have a great thing going with the Incubus.



Understood. Right now I am sitting on an abundance of high end capacitors that are values I do not use in the Incubus so it is my chance to use them up. I also told a few people I would see what I could do about building a larger cabinet so they had more flexibility in modifications. I will stick with original design for the most part but having heard one I might use it to cook tubes and even in that mode, I want a certain level of quality. I know it is entry level but it is my time and I like challenges. You have done a couple mods on yours as I recall, I am not going to turn it into an Incubus but after some changes I might send it on to @bcowen and yourself to see what you think.

My approach is not for everyone and maybe I can help a few people turn a $200 amp into something that sounds like a $1,000 amp, maybe I cannot. I have a fairly complete woodworking shop and this will give me a chance to make something different lol. People are refusing to use my cutting boards, even my wife.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Once you're done will there be any DV left?



Probably the IEC socket.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Probably the IEC socket.


Oh I forgot that, maybe I can work it in too!

Seriously if it is a separate piece I could work the front plate in if I used dual gang pots. I will know more when I have the amp in my hands. I must have worked on six or seven Chinese amps since I repaired a DV. I believe I offered to help @bcowen with a cabinet, and along the way I might be able to help with some simple upgrades.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> That makes good sense but then I have my own preferences on wood of course. It has been a while since I opened one up. I do like to use 3/4 inch thick wood just to add some weight to the amp and keep vibration down. Here is a previous dark wood finish I used but it is more of a piano black.



You want to add weight to the amp? Make the cabinet out of a solid block of soapstone. I'm mostly serious (maybe not the entire cabinet, but even the top/faceplate). Soapstone is easy to work - you don't need masonry tools or anything. It'd look good and be a big change-up from wood or metal.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> You want to add weight to the amp? Make the cabinet out of a solid block of soapstone. I'm mostly serious (maybe not the entire cabinet, but even the top/faceplate). Soapstone is easy to work - you don't need masonry tools or anything. It'd look good and be a big change-up from wood or metal.


Interesting, how easily does it conduct electricity and act as a shield?  The top plate is generally a ground point especially with wooden sides. 3/4 hardwood does an adequate job for me as far as a solid base. For more weight I add copper plate on some amps but it is expensive and hard to work if using 1/8 inch.

As far as sound, @bcowen and @JKDJedi have a pretty good idea of the sound I like, it can be fine tuned with tubes but I have a very good idea of what I do and do not like. Add Focal Utopias to the mix and I can probably get more finicky lol. I have plenty of amps I never listen to, and I have a decent idea of what I want to hear.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Interesting, how easily does it conduct electricity and act as a shield?  The top plate is generally a ground point especially with wooden sides. 3/4 hardwood does an adequate job for me as far as a solid base. For more weight I add copper plate on some amps but it is expensive and hard to work if using 1/8 inch.
> 
> As far as sound, @bcowen and @JKDJedi have a pretty good idea of the sound I like, it can be fine tuned with tubes but I have a very good idea of what I do and do not like. Add Focal Utopias to the mix and I can probably get more finicky lol. I have plenty of amps I never listen to, and I have a decent idea of what I want to hear.


Not a geologist, but I'm guessing 0 conductivity and a "maybe?" for shielding (probably depends on the thickness). I suppose for those reasons you could line the underside with copper mesh or a thin sheet. I'd pick it purely for aesthetics. I love the look and feel of soapstone. If I had even a tiny bit of crafting skills I would've made a headphone stand out of it by now.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Not a geologist, but I'm guessing 0 conductivity and a "maybe?" for shielding (probably depends on the thickness). I suppose for those reasons you could line the underside with copper mesh or a thin sheet. I'd pick it purely for aesthetics. I love the look and feel of soapstone. If I had even a tiny bit of crafting skills I would've made a headphone stand out of it by now.


I will buy some, I have several thoughts for headphone stands and it could come in handy. My wife does pottery so I was thinking of incorporating some of her work anyway. The problem I would get into with a top plate like that is mounting hardware depending on the thickness of the soapstone. I threw this together the other night when I wanted more light and a headphone stand.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...I have plenty of amps I never listen to...



Hoarder.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.


See if you can make a sentence using the following words.

Pot
Kettle 
Black


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> See if you can make a sentence using the following words.
> 
> Pot
> Kettle
> Black



Let's see....how about this:

@Ripper2860 smokes *pot*, a *kettle* is the wrong container for cooking NC BBQ, and when @JKDJedi finishes soldering something there is a high probability of *black* smoke upon first power-up.

Do I win?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I have plenty of amps I never listen to, and I have a decent idea of what I want to hear.


Have I ever mentioned that I take in neglected and orphaned amps? You know, for the greater good


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Let's see....how about this:
> 
> @Ripper2860 smokes *pot*, a *kettle* is the wrong container for cooking NC BBQ, and when @JKDJedi finishes soldering something there is a high probability of *black* smoke upon first power-up.
> 
> Do I win?



Ok you win lol


----------



## Pimmsley

JKDJedi said:


> nevermind the tubes...tell us about them nice speakers you hit there in the background.. 😁



He he...  thank you 
my new Wharfedale evo 4.4 speakers...  I like them very much.

FWIW the soft dome midrange and EMT tweeter pairing is quite impressive for delicate yet very detailed top end... and the transient response of the kevlar woofers add to the overall speed and tightness . Great, full-range,  articulate modern sounding speakers IMO.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Have I ever mentioned that I take in neglected and orphaned amps? You know, for the greater good


If I make a shambles of the 336 it will have your name on it!  I do have a couple working Chinese amps I repaired and ended up with. I can legally get rid of one of them in a month and a half but I doubt it is much better than a 336. The ones I would not part with are a set of Class A mono amps I combine just to remind myself why I do not do solid state much. Some of the stuff I keep around cause they match other pieces lol.


----------



## DeweyCH

Pimmsley said:


> He he...  thank you
> my new Wharfedale evo 4.4 speakers...  I like them very much.
> 
> FWIW the soft dome midrange and EMT tweeter pairing is quite impressive for delicate yet very detailed top end... and the transient response of the kevlar woofers add to the overall speed and tightness . Great, full-range,  articulate modern sounding speakers IMO.


 I’d love to hear a battle between those and my ADS L1290s. Great speakers you have there.


----------



## Pimmsley

DeweyCH said:


> I’d love to hear a battle between those and my ADS L1290s. Great speakers you have there.


Thank you sir !  Right back at ya   those 1290's are beastly ... 
I will have to locate some ADS lovers/owners in Australia to have a listen  I don't believe I have come across them in my hifi travels over the years here in Melbourne.


----------



## DeweyCH

Pimmsley said:


> Thank you sir !  Right back at ya   those 1290's are beastly ...
> I will have to locate some ADS lovers/owners in Australia to have a listen  I don't believe I have come across them in my hifi travels over the years here in Melbourne.


It’s interesting how hard to find ADS stuff tends to be outside of New England much less outside the states. Small comfort as I watch a nor’easter drop two feet of snow on me.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> If I make a shambles of the 336 it will have your name on it!  I do have a couple working Chinese amps I repaired and ended up with. I can legally get rid of one of them in a month and a half but I doubt it is much better than a 336. The ones I would not part with are a set of Class A mono amps I combine just to remind myself why I do not do solid state much. Some of the stuff I keep around cause they match other pieces lol.


Sweet! I'll hope for the worst.

I've been passively looking for a new amp, circling the used forums like a vulture, hoping to feast off Christmas remorse. My Vali2 is great for what it does, but I'm looking for something a little more… tube-tacular. Maybe a G1217 or a Cavalli CTH (the original one not the hobbled MD offering). Possibly an OTC amp, but then there's still the question of how well it'll drive planars.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well. This is pretty special.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet! I'll hope for the worst.
> 
> I've been passively looking for a new amp, circling the used forums like a vulture, hoping to feast off Christmas remorse. My Vali2 is great for what it does, but I'm looking for something a little more… tube-tacular. Maybe a G1217 or a Cavalli CTH (the original one not the hobbled MD offering). Possibly an OTC amp, but then there's still the question of how well it'll drive planars.


I do have a loaner Incubus going out tomorrow, where are you located? What impedance are your planars?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I’d love to hear a battle between those and my ADS L1290s. Great speakers you have there.



I'd like to hear a battle between both of those and my Sound Lab A-1's.





Oh, wait...I don't have the Sound Labs.  Nevermind.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well. This is pretty special.



Your stylus tracks those OK?  That *is* special.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Your stylus tracks those OK?  That *is* special.


I had no idea that the Dual 1019 had such a wide VTA and height adjustment range...what about anti-skating?...


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Your stylus tracks those OK?  That *is* special.


Shure, baby, they’ll track anything


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> I had no idea that the Dual 1019 had such a wide VTA and height adjustment range...what about anti-skating?...


We've got almost two feet of snow so skating is kind of unavoidable.


----------



## DeweyCH

FWIW my current roll is the TS 5998 with those two new Motorola/Sylvania 6J5GTs that @therremans found. Dunno if it's the tubes or the ZMFs but woooooooow. The noise floor is absolutely zero, the bass impact is fabulous, and there's a presence... listening to the Hamilton soundtrack, and right out of the gate, there's a single piano note at the start of "Alexander Hamilton" that hit me like I was sitting next to a grand piano.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> FWIW my current roll is the TS 5998 with those two new Motorola/Sylvania 6J5GTs that @therremans found. Dunno if it's the tubes or the ZMFs but woooooooow. The noise floor is absolutely zero, the bass impact is fabulous, and there's a presence... listening to the Hamilton soundtrack, and right out of the gate, there's a single piano note at the start of "Alexander Hamilton" that hit me like I was sitting next to a grand piano.


I would suspect it is the combination of tubes. Accurate headphones are more apt to let you hear noise along the frequency spectrum. I hear things with Focal Utopias I could not begin to hear with other headphones, both good and bad.


----------



## DeweyCH

Incidentally, since y'all really know your tubes, I have a question: is there a real difference between the various letters between the numbers in US-named tubes?

What I mean is, it seems like 6J5, 6L5 etc. are basically the same tube, correct? I do know that the trailing letters will represent the material it's made of (G, GT, etc.), but basically can I use any 6x5 I want in the same unit? 12xx7, 6xx7, etc.?

I've struggled to find a simple enough primer on the etymology of tubes, but my assumption is that, for example, in a 6x5, the 6 speaks to the base whereas the 5 speaks to the amount of power it handles. Is this close to reality?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I do have a loaner Incubus going out tomorrow, where are you located? What impedance are your planars?


I'm in the frozen north of Alberta. Cross border shipping would probably be a hassle for everybody involved - I was looking into grabbing a pair of phones from Adorama last month, the ~$100 CAD FedEx shipping shut that down pretty quick.
I've got a pair of 400i ATM,  40 Ω.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally, since y'all really know your tubes, I have a question: is there a real difference between the various letters between the numbers in US-named tubes?
> 
> What I mean is, it seems like 6J5, 6L5 etc. are basically the same tube, correct? I do know that the trailing letters will represent the material it's made of (G, GT, etc.), but basically can I use any 6x5 I want in the same unit? 12xx7, 6xx7, etc.?
> 
> I've struggled to find a simple enough primer on the etymology of tubes, but my assumption is that, for example, in a 6x5, the 6 speaks to the base whereas the 5 speaks to the amount of power it handles. Is this close to reality?


https://www.amazon.com/Tube-Lore-II...1&keywords=tube+lore+II&qid=1612288439&sr=8-1

This is one of the better books around on different tubes. As I recall G stands for globe, GT for globe tubular. ST straight sided plus tubular.

I did not understand your other question but 6j5's are single triode versions of 6sn7's which are dual triodes in the same tube.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Tube-Lore-II...1&keywords=tube+lore+II&qid=1612288439&sr=8-1
> 
> This is one of the better books around on different tubes. As I recall G stands for globe, GT for globe tubular. ST straight sided plus tubular.
> 
> I did not understand your other question but 6j5's are single triode versions of 6sn7's which are dual triodes in the same tube.


Thanks. Mostly I'm trying to figure out the difference between a 6J5 and a 6L5, and whether the J and L really mean anything significant in terms of swappability.

My other question is about the numbers. Would it be correct to interpret 6x5 as 6 = "uses a standard octal base," x (whichever letter is in between) denotes an era, and 5 = "single triode"?


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> What I mean is, it seems like 6J5, 6L5 etc. are basically the same tube, correct? I do know that the trailing letters will represent the material it's made of (G, GT, etc.), but basically can I use any 6x5 I want in the same unit? 12xx7, 6xx7, etc.?



Short answer is No.  Different variants within a tube family have different specifications (current draws/gain-amplification factors) etc. that determine if they can 1. run safely within your amp, and 2. will it sound alright.  

I'll take the Liquid Platinum for example -- I actually run 12AU7 on this amp with an adapter.  Electrically its within the limits the amp was designed for.  And it sounds really good I might add.  But if you ran a 12AT7, the gain is much higher in that tube, and will produce alot of distortion in the amp -- its not going to sound good.


----------



## therremans (Feb 2, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally, since y'all really know your tubes, I have a question: is there a real difference between the various letters between the numbers in US-named tubes?
> 
> What I mean is, it seems like 6J5, 6L5 etc. are basically the same tube, correct? I do know that the trailing letters will represent the material it's made of (G, GT, etc.), but basically can I use any 6x5 I want in the same unit? 12xx7, 6xx7, etc.?
> 
> I've struggled to find a simple enough primer on the etymology of tubes, but my assumption is that, for example, in a 6x5, the 6 speaks to the base whereas the 5 speaks to the amount of power it handles. Is this close to reality?


I have used 6J5, 6P5, 6C5 in the 6SN7 socket of the Darkvoice. They are generally considered compatible but they have different gains which could cause some problems with performance. Some equipment required more/less gain depending on the sensitivity of the amplifier. Others like @bcowen will likely know more than me on this but I will try to help. The 6 represents 6.3v Vf (forward voltage). The letter would be a different variation. I am not sure what the 5 represents for but it could be tied to a letter and number combination_ (6 + J5, C5, P5, SN7)_.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> The 6 represents 6.3v Vf (forward voltage). The letter would be a different variation. I am not sure what the 5 represents for but it could be tied to a letter and number combination_ (6 + J5, C5, P5, SN7)_.


The "5" in this case (so i've read) refers to the number of internal elements in a tube - at least for american naming convention standards.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I have used 6J5, 6P5, 6C5 in the 6SN7 socket of the Darkvoice. They are generally considered compatible but are they have different gains which could cause some problems with performance. Some equipment required more/less gain depending on the sensitivity of the amplifier. Others like @bcowen will likely know more than me on this but I will try to help. The 6 represents 6.3v Vf (forward voltage). The letter would be a different variation. I am not sure what the 5 represents for but it could be tied to a letter and number combination_ (6 + J5, C5, P5, SN7)_.



Yup, basically what you and @Slade01 said.  In tubes with US designations (and many Euro tubes), the first number is the heater voltage. 6 for 6.3 (like a 6SN7), 12 for 12.6 like a 12AU7, 5 for 5.0 (like a 5AR4), etc. The rest of the numbers/letters have no consistent convention across different tube types.  While a 6J5, 6C5, and 6P5 are very similar, they are not identical. And don't try a 6N5 as it's a "magic-eye" tube or a 6X5 as it's a rectifier tube.  So even the 6*5 labeled tubes can have some significant differences.


----------



## DeweyCH

You learn something every day. Thanks all!


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> You learn something every day. Thanks all!


Well said, each day I learn that I should keep conversations with @bcowen to a minimum.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I'm in the frozen north of Alberta. Cross border shipping would probably be a hassle for everybody involved - I was looking into grabbing a pair of phones from Adorama last month, the ~$100 CAD FedEx shipping shut that down pretty quick.
> I've got a pair of 400i ATM,  40 Ω.


Considering what I just paid to ship a 13 lb box to Georgia, shipping to Canada would be quite an expense but I did consider it lol.


----------



## Damok

Wow this is a very large and wonderful thread full of information but trying to search through it I am getting a little lost, I am sure this question has been asked 900 times already but please forgive me. Since Drop just released the DarkVoice 336 the other day I had some spare change and a chance to grab it. I will be pairing it with the HD6XX's and Modi Multibit I bought a few years ago and I am really excited. I do have a few questions though...

Is it OK to replace the Stock Tubes right away before even turning it on or should I turn it all on and let it sit for a bit and test it? My understanding is that no one enjoys the stock tubes.

Looking at the insane amount of tubes in this thread and trying to piece together what would be a good fit for me I am looking at the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (Seems to be the most recommended starter tube) or Psvane UK-6SN7 (I could spend a little more if this is going to be the more desirable tube), what I am looking for is a more bassy warm experience listening to 90's Rap (Tupac, Dre, Snoop, etc) mostly and Classic Rock (70's 80's and wow I guess 90's is Classic now). In your opinions which tube should I go with?

Should I also look to replace Power Tube? I was seeing a lot of people recommending the Tung-Sol 7236...

Last question I promise. Is there a proper way to burn in the tubes? I have seen a few guides say to remove the Power Tube, install the PreAmp Tube and turn the unit on and leave it for 72 hours, turn it all off and plug in the Power Tube and connect headphones... Is the the general guidelines or does it really matter overall if I just plug in the tubes and listen to music and turn it off at the end of the day and eventually reach "burn in" period?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Considering what I just paid to ship a 13 lb box to Georgia, shipping to Canada would be quite an expense but I did consider it lol.


Cost is only part of the hassle. I ordered a couple of tubes just before Christmas. They got stuck in no-man's land between the borders for 2 weeks before they were cleared for further shipping (ie. only after CBSA scrutinized them enough to see if they could gouge any $$ out of me for customs fees)


----------



## DeweyCH

Damok said:


> Wow this is a very large and wonderful thread full of information but trying to search through it I am getting a little lost, I am sure this question has been asked 900 times already but please forgive me. Since Drop just released the DarkVoice 336 the other day I had some spare change and a chance to grab it. I will be pairing it with the HD6XX's and Modi Multibit I bought a few years ago and I am really excited. I do have a few questions though...
> 
> Is it OK to replace the Stock Tubes right away before even turning it on or should I turn it all on and let it sit for a bit and test it? My understanding is that no one enjoys the stock tubes.
> 
> ...


Yes it's OK to replace the stock tubes right away. Depending on your budget, I'm not a big fan of the new Russian-made Tung-Sols (have one, don't like it). You can look for a new old stock RCA 6SN7 for between $25-$50 or a Shuguang CV-181 for about $90. The stock tubes blow.

I'd replace the power tube as well. My first one was a new old stock RCA 6AS7 that's a very solid performer. A little more $$ will get you a Svetlana Winged C 6AS7G (an eBay seller has them for $35 a pop). Either is good and both will make a positive impact on the sound.

Burning in, what you describe is correct. You can certainly just pop the tubes in and listen but you'll probably have an annoying hum during the burn-in process, and nothing is harmed by at least pulling the power tube and leaving the pre tube to burn in overnight the first night you have it.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Cost is only part of the hassle. I ordered a couple of tubes just before Christmas. They got stuck in no-man's land between the borders for 2 weeks before they were cleared for further shipping (ie. only after CBSA scrutinized them enough to see if they could gouge any $$ out of me for customs fees)


yikes


----------



## therremans (Feb 2, 2021)

Damok said:


> Is it OK to replace the Stock Tubes right away before even turning it on or should I turn it all on and let it sit for a bit and test it? My understanding is that no one enjoys the stock tubes.


You could but I wouldn’t. You don’t really know if anything got knocked loose from shipping and it would be a bummer to ruin a nice nos tube. So I’d let it sit on for hours 100% stock and make sure you don’t have any quality or shipping problems.


Damok said:


> what would be a good fit for me I am looking at the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB


It was also my first but I didn’t use it for long and favored much cheaper old stock tubes. So I would just skip it. This tube is infamous for a single channel hum while it burns in.


Damok said:


> 90's Rap (Tupac, Dre, Snoop, etc) mostly and Classic Rock (70's 80's and wow I guess 90's is Classic now). In your opinions which tube should I go with?


Grab this adapter - link (updated) and get these tubes Link that will be a good start for you.


Damok said:


> Should I also look to replace Power Tube? I was seeing a lot of people recommending the Tung-Sol 7236...


Yes, to start, try a Svetlana 6AS7G/6H13C power tube ($10-$20). If you can spend more try to get a 5998 ($75-$125) or a 7236 (will lack some low end vs the other two) ($35-$75).


Damok said:


> Is there a proper way to burn in the tubes?


If you hear a hum you can try the method you mentioned. You may not hear this hum on most tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> You could but I wouldn’t. You don’t really know if anything got knocked loose from shipping and it would be a bummer to ruin a nice nos tube. So I’d let it sit on for hours 100% stock and make sure you don’t have any quality or shipping problems.
> 
> It was also my first but I didn’t use it for long and favored much cheaper old stock tubes. So I would just skip it. This tube is infamous for a single channel hum while it burns in.
> 
> ...


Incidentally, I don't think that adapter you linked works. I have the 6AS7 --> A2293 one by the same eBayer and it needs a socket saver to get all the way down into the Darkvoice's socket.


----------



## DeweyCH

Switched back over from the new Motorola 6J5s to my tin can RCAs. RCAs certainly have more low-end heft at the expense of a bit of clarity. Good sound still, but I'd probably say the Motorolas are more my cup of tea.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally, I don't think that adapter you linked works. I have the 6AS7 --> A2293 one by the same eBayer and it needs a socket saver to get all the way down into the Darkvoice's socket.


Okay good to know, I updated the link to one similar to ours with a metal base.


----------



## Damok

DeweyCH said:


> Yes it's OK to replace the stock tubes right away. Depending on your budget, I'm not a big fan of the new Russian-made Tung-Sols (have one, don't like it). You can look for a new old stock RCA 6SN7 for between $25-$50 or a Shuguang CV-181 for about $90. The stock tubes blow.
> 
> I'd replace the power tube as well. My first one was a new old stock RCA 6AS7 that's a very solid performer. A little more $$ will get you a Svetlana Winged C 6AS7G (an eBay seller has them for $35 a pop). Either is good and both will make a positive impact on the sound.
> 
> Burning in, what you describe is correct. You can certainly just pop the tubes in and listen but you'll probably have an annoying hum during the burn-in process, and nothing is harmed by at least pulling the power tube and leaving the pre tube to burn in overnight the first night you have it.



Thank you so much for the advice. I am going to read up a bit more on the Shuguang CV-181.




therremans said:


> You could but I wouldn’t. You don’t really know if anything got knocked loose from shipping and it would be a bummer to ruin a nice nos tube. So I’d let it sit on for hours 100% stock and make sure you don’t have any quality or shipping problems.
> 
> It was also my first but I didn’t use it for long and favored much cheaper old stock tubes. So I would just skip it. This tube is infamous for a single channel hum while it burns in.
> 
> ...



I appreciate you taking the extra time to send me some links as well as the advice, i went ahead and pulled the trigger on both items I am looking at a 5998 but how much does the Brand matter? The one on Ebay is a United NOS that several people are bidding on.


----------



## DeweyCH

Damok said:


> Thank you so much for the advice. I am going to read up a bit more on the Shuguang CV-181.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like the Shuguang. It was one of the earlier tubes I got when I started rolling and I still go back to it quite often.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well said, each day I myself learn something new from @bcowen.



Fixed this for you.


----------



## bcowen

Damok said:


> I appreciate you taking the extra time to send me some links as well as the advice, i went ahead and pulled the trigger on both items I am looking at a 5998 but how much does the Brand matter? The one on Ebay is a United NOS that several people are bidding on.



That's a TungSol, just OEM'ed for United. Nice looking tube if it's truly NOS.  I would expect it will go for $150+, but I could be wrong. If you can snag it for a price you're happy with, grab it.


----------



## therremans

Another tube that I think sounds pretty damn good for the money ($10 shipped). Link


----------



## Damok

Ok, I should have heeded the warnings... Here I am waiting on the DarkVoice to even ship and I think I am close to spending as much on the tubes as I have on the actual unit, though $200 was a good deal. I am excited for everything but my wallet is giving me funny looks...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Fixed this for you.


LOL  I got some variations of Melz tubes in today, I may wait till the DV 336 arrives and plug them in that before I try them in an Incubus. I shipped @sam6550a the loaner today so it will be nice to get another engineers opinion, not that yours does not matter.  I could plug them in a Lyr 3 but first I would have to locate that amp, it is in my shop somewhere. At least I know tubes I receive from you are well tested and should function properly.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Another tube that I think sounds pretty damn good for the money ($10 shipped). Link


Yeah those little RCAs are great tubes, especially for how cheap you can get them.


----------



## DeweyCH

Damok said:


> Ok, I should have heeded the warnings... Here I am waiting on the DarkVoice to even ship and I think I am close to spending as much on the tubes as I have on the actual unit, though $200 was a good deal. I am excited for everything but my wallet is giving me funny looks...


Just wait until the veterans here start supporting your modding habit. Don’t have one? You will. The DV is insanely moddable and I blame most of the people in this thread for how much time and money I’ve invested into tinkering with mine’s guts. Also for how dang amazing it sounds now.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Just wait until the veterans here start supporting your modding habit. Don’t have one? You will. The DV is insanely moddable and I blame most of the people in this thread for how much time and money I’ve invested into tinkering with mine’s guts. Also for how dang amazing it sounds now.


I hope to allow enough room to make one extremely moddable, I may remove the power supply and breadboard the rest to allow for better testing and part substitution, then reassemble  the final version. I downloaded a couple schematics but have not had time to find a decent one. If one of you gentlemen has one please PM it to me.


----------



## Damok (Feb 2, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Just wait until the veterans here start supporting your modding habit. Don’t have one? You will. The DV is insanely moddable and I blame most of the people in this thread for how much time and money I’ve invested into tinkering with mine’s guts. Also for how dang amazing it sounds now.


Yea I am good for the moment, I was able to snag the auction for a decent price but at this point I am slightly over what I paid for the DV unit. I will wait until I get it and all the tubes get is all configured and maybe look at others from there haha.

Edit: No regrets though, I am excited to get this all hooked up and I greatly appreciate everyone's input.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Just wait until the veterans here start supporting your modding habit. Don’t have one? You will. The DV is insanely moddable and *I blame most of the people in this thread for how much time and money I’ve invested* into tinkering with mine’s guts. Also for how dang amazing it sounds now.


Better this than crack and hookers though.


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Better this than crack and hookers though.


Funny you mention... this is a gateway to a Bottlehead Crack


----------



## Damok (Feb 2, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Funny you mention... this is a gateway to a Bottlehead Crack


I was going to go that route over the DarkVoice but I am better at buying gear than crafting sadly. My understanding is Bottlehead Crack + Speedball is amazing but I would have to solder everything and I havnt messed with any of that before.


----------



## Paladin79

Mine does not ship till March 24th, by then I will have built a few more amps lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Damok said:


> I was going to go that route over the DarkVoice but I am better at buying gear than crafting sadly. My understanding is Bottlehead Crack + Speedball is amazing but I would have to solder everything and I havnt messed with any of that before.


Generally those who build Crack amps stock get about $640 to $700, I can build one in a day stock so that is about $350 for labor minus advertising on Ebay or Etsy.
Oops they are bring more now lol. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottlehead...888710?hash=item4b731deec6:g:PhIAAOSwIUReLSDo
Professionally built, spray painted top and cabinet, ok maybe a day and a half for me but I would use quality hardwood. There is a large contingent modding them, I wonder why that is? They are decent out of the box but I prefer 6sn7's over 12AU7's.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Better this than crack and hookers though.



That's debatable.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Generally those who build Crack amps stock get about $640 to $700, I can build one in a day stock so that is about $350 for labor minus advertising on Ebay or Etsy.
> Oops they are bring more now lol.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottlehead...888710?hash=item4b731deec6:g:PhIAAOSwIUReLSDo
> Professionally built, spray painted top and cabinet, ok maybe a day and a half for me but I would use quality hardwood. There is a large contingent modding them, I wonder why that is? They are decent out of the box but I prefer 6sn7's over 12AU7's.


I’ve got an order in for a crack with speedball. Nice to know if it doesn’t significantly beat the DV I can sell it for a reasonable amount. Plus it’s another expansion of my nascent skill set.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I’ve got an order in for a crack with speedball. Nice to know if it doesn’t significantly beat the DV I can sell it for a reasonable amount. Plus it’s another expansion of my nascent skill set.


They provide enough info and safety warnings that most anyone can build one. They have sales a couple times a year and cost then used to be around $300 or less. You will see some of my work by searching steampunk Bottlehead Crack in Google photos.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That's debatable.


Debatable for who… Charlie Sheen?


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Debatable for who… Charlie Sheen?


I was thinking: Hugh Grant


----------



## Ad720

The "dream team" is back in. GE GTB 59-13 date code with the red dot on the bottom and GE Jan GA. Something really special about this pair.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 3, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> At least I know tubes I receive from you are well tested and should function properly.



I never stick a tube in one of my components without testing it first.  Funny thing:  I re-tested the tubes I sent you before I packed them up. One of them had a dead short in it.  So I sent it anyway and didn't mark which one it was.   (kidding of course ).  I had tested that tube when I first got it (many years ago) and it was fine. But now, years later and just sitting for a long time, something obviously changed.  When the Hickok detects a short, it pegs the meter needle to the far right, and this one pegged in a blinding instant.  Tapping the tube lightly made no difference -- the meter needle didn't budge which indicated it was probably *not* due to a bad pin solder issue.  So how does a tube develop a dead short just sitting unused in a box in a climate controlled environment?  I don't know.  Really, I don't have a clue. But it just shows that a "NOS" tube can be bad right off the bat without ever having been used before...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I never stick a tube in one of my components without testing it first.  Funny thing:  I re-tested the tubes I sent you before I packed them up. One of them had a dead short in it.  So I sent it anyway and didn't mark which one it was.   (kidding of course ).  I had tested that tube when I first got it (many years ago) and it was fine. But now, years later and just sitting for a long time, something obviously changed.  When the Hickok detects a short, it pegs the meter needle to the far right, and this one pegged in a blinding instant.  Tapping the tube lightly made no difference -- the meter needle didn't budge which indicated it was probably *not* due to a bad pin solder issue.  So how does a tube develop a dead short just sitting unused in a box in a climate controlled environment?  I don't know.  Really, I don't have a clue. But it just shows that a "NOS" tube can be bad right off the bat without ever having been used before...


I will get my tester going again, I also like to test tubes before plugging them in equipment and I deal with many Russian tubes whose solder I tend to replace. I test them before and after soldering just to see what changes come about after the resolder. On some the triodes are much more balanced afterwards.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I never stick a tube in one of my components without testing it first.  Funny thing:  I re-tested the tubes I sent you before I packed them up. One of them had a dead short in it.  So I sent it anyway and didn't mark which one it was.   (kidding of course ).  I had tested that tube when I first got it (many years ago) and it was fine. But now, years later and just sitting for a long time, something obviously changed.  When the Hickok detects a short, it pegs the meter needle to the far right, and this one pegged in a blinding instant.  Tapping the tube lightly made no difference -- the meter needle didn't budge which indicated it was probably *not* due to a bad pin solder issue.  So how does a tube develop a dead short just sitting unused in a box in a climate controlled environment?  I don't know.  Really, I don't have a clue. But it just shows that a "NOS" tube can be bad right off the bat without ever having been used before...


Oh, that is how it is done. I never stick a finger ☝️in one of my components without testing it first 🤬💀


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Oh, that is how it is done. I never stick a finger ☝in one of my components without testing it first 🤬💀



Newbie.  Experienced lunatics use their tongue.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Newbie.  Experienced lunatics use their tongue.


No, both should be used.

New arrivals today


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> No, both should be used.
> 
> New arrivals today



Sweet!  How do they sound?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  How do they sound?


I purchased them from a seller that recently popped up in England. Very happy with them and I managed to get them for a true bargain. I did tell him that I’d always keep them. They sound absolutely fantastic so far.  I can’t test them myself but are suppose to be NOS/unused and they look it. 

So far, they’ve just been paired with a 5998. The sound is neutral/flat, warm, round, yet full bodied. However, the dynamics are still quite exceptional, high hats and drum strikes for example come through very well. Vocals are really warm and lovely. The low end extension is powerful, it is round and more loose but attacks very deep. Instrument and channel separation is top tier, nothing getting lost in the mix. It’s pretty easy to pick out the multiple tracks/layers.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> No, both should be used.
> 
> New arrivals today


What parametre or characteristic is “unknown” referring to?


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> What parametre or characteristic is “unknown” referring to?


Unknown manufacturer. CV labeled.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Unknown manufacturer. CV labeled.


Thank you.


----------



## Galapac

@therremans  I like the look of the radio tower like beacons on the tops of those tubes, tres cool.


----------



## jonathan c

jonathan c said:


> Thank you.


Another thought 😜: assuming the c(ommon) v(alve) moniker covers military application, could those pictured be “tubes of the unknown soldier”?😖


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Another thought 😜: assuming the c(ommon) v(alve) moniker covers military application, could those pictured be “tubes of the unknown soldier”?😖



LOL!  But more like "tubes purchased from the unknown source" because someone is being too stingy to share. I won't mention any names because I don't want to get @therremans in trouble.    

This one on Ebay sure looks the same, but at a choke and puke price for a single tube:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-6J...229559?hash=item23e94159f7:g:QqsAAOSwv7Zf0fr1


----------



## bcowen

I'm gonna go stick some Brimar 6J5's in.  Not because I like them all that much, just that they were expensive.


----------



## bcowen

Not a bad pairing with the Brimar 6J5's and Cetron 7236.  Best I've heard from the Brimars so far:





This is better. Amperex 7316 (high spec 12AU7) with the Cetron. Gigantic soundstage and detail out the wazoo.  Needs a little help from the Loki in the bass department though...a bit lightweight down low. Need to put the graphite plate Chatham back in there and see what happens.


----------



## jonathan c

Granted that this is a DV thread, I wanted to express my great satisfaction and enjoyment from a Cetron 7236 / Brimar CV4003 triad in the Woo WA3...it might be a serendipitous pairing in a DV. In the picture, the Cetron name is facing the power transformer 🙃 ...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Not a bad pairing with the Brimar 6J5's and Cetron 7236.  Best I've heard from the Brimars so far:
> 
> 
> 
> This is better. Amperex 7316 (high spec 12AU7) with the Cetron. Gigantic soundstage and detail out the wazoo.  Needs a little help from the Loki in the bass department though...a bit lightweight down low. Need to put the graphite plate Chatham back in there and see what happens.


Is the Cetron leaning back a bit? Using my schooling vocabulary, it looks “squiff” compared to the Amperex.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> This is better. Amperex 7316 (high spec 12AU7) with the Cetron. Gigantic soundstage and detail out the wazoo.



I've been meaning to ask you -- what do you consider the best 12AU7 that you've heard...?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Is the Cetron leaning back a bit? Using my schooling vocabulary, it looks “squiff” compared to the Amperex.



Eagle eye.     It was, in fact, leaning back just a bit.  I need to tighten the contacts in both sockets...getting a bit loose after all the rolling.  I plan to replace them completely with a much higher quality socket when I do the other mods that @L0rdGwyn is working on.  

No wonder that 7236 wasn't sounding quite linear.


----------



## Hamlap

Can anybody tell me how the "i" differs from the "SE"? I can get the "I" for a nice price, was wondering how they differ...


----------



## DeweyCH

Newly-arrived Sylvania VT-99 with my Tung-Sol 5998. Great combo with soundstage for days. Tiny hum in the right channel, though. Only noticeable when there's nothing playing, hopefully it burns in a touch.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Newly-arrived Sylvania VT-99 with my Tung-Sol 5998. Great combo with soundstage for days. Tiny hum in the right channel, though. Only noticeable when there's nothing playing, hopefully it burns in a touch.



Nice!  I can't tell for sure from the picture...does the Sylvania have round plates?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Nice!  I can't tell for sure from the picture...does the Sylvania have round plates?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I've been meaning to ask you -- what do you consider the best 12AU7 that you've heard...?



They are somewhat component dependent, but my overall favorite is the long plate, foil getter Holland-made Amperex 7316.  The one in the photo is a short plate, round getter version that sounds quite good, but not quite to the level of the long plate version. I also like the smooth plate Telefunken ECC82's quite a bit.  My favorite cheapie tube (or *used* to be cheap anyway) are the clear top, side getter RCA's.  Have several more to play with --  CIFTE's, Tungsrams, Mullard CV4003's, and a few close variants (5814, 6189, 5963). I tried several of these in the Lyr 3 but ended up preferring 6SN7's (and variants) in that amp. The 7316 is the first 12AU7 type I've tried in the DV...so far.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> They are somewhat component dependent, but my overall favorite is the long plate, foil getter Holland-made Amperex 7316.  The one in the photo is a short plate, round getter version that sounds quite good, but not quite to the level of the long plate version. I also like the smooth plate Telefunken ECC82's quite a bit.  My favorite cheapie tube (or *used* to be cheap anyway) are the clear top, side getter RCA's.  Have several more to play with --  CIFTE's, Tungsrams, Mullard CV4003's, and a few close variants (5814, 6189, 5963). I tried several of these in the Lyr 3 but ended up preferring 6SN7's (and variants) in that amp. The 7316 is the first 12AU7 type I've tried in the DV...so far.



Thank you - i'm just trying to get an idea/sense of the better 12AU7s to give a shot.    I didnt even think about running them on the Darkvoice...im using them in the Liquid Platinum right now.  I've pretty much settled on some Brimars and a pair of Raytheon 7730s which are some of the best i've ever heard in this price point.  RCA cleartops are often mentioned...may give those a try.

That Amperex 7316 LP/foil getter is indeed highly regarded.  God help me, i may have to get yet another adapter now....


----------



## SHIMACM

So ... does anyone have the courage?

Total madness!!!!!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/114664644802?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> So ... does anyone have the courage?
> 
> Total madness!!!!!
> 
> ...



What exactly is a "Bipolar" tube?  Does it have mental health issues??


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> What exactly is a "Bipolar" tube?  Does it have mental health issues??



Pay dearly that way and still take a bipolar tube home.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> What exactly is a "Bipolar" tube?  Does it have mental health issues??



ROFL!!   It's a tube that sounds awesome one day, and like a GE the next day.


----------



## therremans

Once realized that you overpaid by about $500 or so, you slowly go into bipolar fits for days, weeks or even months. RCA BI POLAR


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Thank you - i'm just trying to get an idea/sense of the better 12AU7s to give a shot.    I didnt even think about running them on the Darkvoice...im using them in the Liquid Platinum right now.  I've pretty much settled on some Brimars and a pair of Raytheon 7730s which are some of the best i've ever heard in this price point.  RCA cleartops are often mentioned...may give those a try.
> 
> That Amperex 7316 LP/foil getter is indeed highly regarded.  God help me, i may have to get yet another adapter now....



Well, on the bright side there's no such thing as too many adapters.    On the negative side, the long plate/foil getter 7316's are becoming pretty scarce...with increasingly silly prices to reflect it.


----------



## Mr Trev

What's the plate voltage in the DV anyhow? I'm assuming it can't be anywhere near "optimal" for 6sn7s otherwise wouldn't a 9 pin tube explode?


----------



## therremans

I have checked out prices of 12AU7 and 12AX7 previously, (my vinyl pre-amp uses 12AX7). They seemed even more hoarded/scarce due to a wide diverse interested user groups, including guitarists and techs for those amplifiers. I wanted to get far away from trying to collect those. Though i’m sure deals can still be found. That langrex Brimar CV4003 looks interesting.


----------



## Mr Trev

IIRC, the best value for 12au7 are organ branded (baldwin, hammond, etc). Hand picked for low noise, reasonably cheap.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What's the plate voltage in the DV anyhow? I'm assuming it can't be anywhere near "optimal" for 6sn7s otherwise wouldn't a 9 pin tube explode?



With the circuit set up for a typical amplifier application, they're actually pretty darn close:

*6SN7GT:*







*12AU7A:*


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Though i’m sure deals can still be found. That langrex Brimar CV4003 looks interesting.



I have yet to meet a Brimar tube that did not sound great.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Thank you - i'm just trying to get an idea/sense of the better 12AU7s to give a shot.    I didnt even think about running them on the Darkvoice...im using them in the Liquid Platinum right now.  I've pretty much settled on some Brimars and a pair of Raytheon 7730s which are some of the best i've ever heard in this price point.  RCA cleartops are often mentioned...may give those a try.
> 
> That Amperex 7316 LP/foil getter is indeed highly regarded.  God help me, i may have to get yet another adapter now....


Of the Amperex 7316s, the PQs are something else 💫. I have used and rotated United Electron 12au7s (an RCA ‘re-brand’ [?]) in Woo WA3 and in BHC 1.1+: very clear sculpted midrange and ethereal treble. I have yet to try out some Lansdale 12AU7s in my collection. My favourite, at this time, for 12AU7s is the Brimar CV4003. (PS: my brainear actually preferred Brimar CV2492s to CV4003s in the LP - different gear for different ears I suppose...)


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> With the circuit set up for a typical amplifier application, they're actually pretty darn close:
> 
> *6SN7GT:*
> 
> ...


Ahh, I had the impression that 6sn7 were ~100v higher than 12au7.


----------



## Hamlap

Hamlap said:


> Can anybody tell me how the "i" differs from the "SE"? I can get the "I" for a nice price, was wondering how they differ...


Sorry to be impatient, but the seller needs my answer  Anyone that can elaborate on this matter?


----------



## therremans

Hamlap said:


> Sorry to be impatient, but the seller needs my answer  Anyone that can elaborate on this matter?


It’s quite a bit older and I’ve never owned it. This one has been modded but the layout is noticeably different. I think the new SE is back on Drop for $200.


----------



## Hamlap

therremans said:


> It’s quite a bit older and I’ve never owned it. This one has been modded but the layout is noticeably different. I think the new SE is back on Drop for $200.


I don't have the technical knowledge to understand this, haha!
Yeah,I know. But shipping to Europe will be expensive, sadly. But I'll probably pass on the "i" and keep my eye out for an "SE".


----------



## Deceneu808

Hamlap said:


> I don't have the technical knowledge to understand this, haha!
> Yeah,I know. But shipping to Europe will be expensive, sadly. But I'll probably pass on the "i" and keep my eye out for an "SE".


26 $ for shipping & another 19% in tax...


----------



## Hamlap

Deceneu808 said:


> 26 $ for shipping & another 19% in tax...


Jup. Not to bad, but there is another 366SE in my country, for about €170


----------



## Deceneu808

Hamlap said:


> Jup. Not to bad, but there is another 366SE in my country, for about €170


I paid 340 $ for mine just to have it the same day. I've built this hype around it for a month or so and it wasn't in stock anywhere and this dude from the same city as me just popped an add. it was brand new... I don't regret a thing. It's fun, it's different & it's personal. Just be ready to tube roll, hard...


----------



## Hamlap

Deceneu808 said:


> I paid 340 $ for mine just to have it the same day. I've built this hype around it for a month or so and it wasn't in stock anywhere and this dude from the same city as me just popped an add. it was brand new... I don't regret a thing. It's fun, it's different & it's personal. Just be ready to tube roll, hard...


Great to read. I plan to buy a ZMF Aeolus in the near future and I read that that set loves tubes. So that's how my attention came to the 366SE . What's your favourite combination?

I'll give the guy a call tomorrow, hope I can go pick it up asap.


----------



## Deceneu808

Hamlap said:


> Great to read. I plan to buy a ZMF Aeolus in the near future and I read that that set loves tubes. So that's how my attention came to the 366SE . What's your favourite combination?
> 
> I'll give the guy a call tomorrow, hope I can go pick it up asap.


Well I love all my headphones on the DV but I still come back to the HD600. With the Zen Dac as pre and a little bass boost I mean... I have no craving for anything else tbh. Listening to some Van Morisson right now... As far as tubes go I've stuck with a Mullard 6080 for power and a B65 M.W.T. Marconi 6SN7GT. I do have a Tung Sol 5998 power tube on the way from Russia lmao. in transit for 32 days...


----------



## therremans

Here in the states I paid $270 or so from APOS Audio out of California. This is my first headphone amp and I didn’t want to wait 3-4 months for drop to run it again and get it delivered. Just bad timing (of my interest spark) on my part. I bought the HD6XX at the same time. My first real pair of headphones and amp. But I never regretted spending what I did, even if most of the components aren’t original anymore.


----------



## Deceneu808

Sucks that UK left the EU. It was my main source for tubes. Now I've got to pay taxes and such. I need another source within the EU if anybody knows


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> Sucks that UK left the EU. It was my main source for tubes. Now I've got to pay taxes and such. I need another source within the EU if anybody knows


Yes but you get to live in Brasov, so that's awesome. My first ever trip to visit my in-laws in Bucharest, we ended up going to Brasov and skiing in Poiana Brasov. Love that part of the world.


----------



## DeweyCH

Welp... time to do the resistors. Been putting it off, but the DV is all opened up on my bench (by which I mean an old '50's formica table in the utility room). I'm guessing that the removal of all of them will be significant enough that I can replace the sockets, too... wish me luck.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Welp... time to do the resistors. Been putting it off, but the DV is all opened up on my bench (by which I mean an old '50's formica table in the utility room). I'm guessing that the removal of all of them will be significant enough that I can replace the sockets, too... wish me luck.


Desolder the old socket lugs, the resistors, install new sockets and resistors but also don’t add new solder until all of your leads are trimmed and wiring is done.

discharge your power caps first. Take photos before.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Desolder the old socket lugs, the resistors, install new sockets and resistors but also don’t add new solder until all of your leads are trimmed and wiring is done.
> 
> discharge your power caps first. Take photos before.


Dumb but important question... how does one discharge his power caps? I typically just leave things unplugged for 24-48 hours and assume the caps will discharge naturally.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Dumb but important question... how does one discharge his power caps? I typically just leave things unplugged for 24-48 hours and assume the caps will discharge naturally.


I still haven’t came up with a perfect method. If you have a spare 1/4” male phono plug you can ground the left and right channels to ground with alligator clips. Never power on the amp like this. But there’s no way to tell when it’s discharged with this particular method that I know of. You may google some methods that incorporate a 100W light bulb. Sorry I can’t be more help here.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I still haven’t came up with a perfect method. If you have a spare 1/4” male phono plug you can ground the left and right channels to ground with alligator clips. Never power on the amp like this. But there’s no way to tell when it’s discharged with this particular method that I know of. You may google some methods that incorporate a 100W light bulb. Sorry I can’t be more help here.


No worries, there's plenty of Googlable ideas out there, just wondered if there was a 'works for me' method you'd recommend. I'll probably just try the resistor-in-a-wire method.


----------



## Hamlap

Deceneu808 said:


> Well I love all my headphones on the DV but I still come back to the HD600. With the Zen Dac as pre and a little bass boost I mean... I have no craving for anything else tbh. Listening to some Van Morisson right now... As far as tubes go I've stuck with a Mullard 6080 for power and a B65 M.W.T. Marconi 6SN7GT. I do have a Tung Sol 5998 power tube on the way from Russia lmao. in transit for 32 days...


Alright, sounds great! I hope the guy responds and I can get it  Otherwise, I'll probably try Drop.



therremans said:


> Here in the states I paid $270 or so from APOS Audio out of California. This is my first headphone amp and I didn’t want to wait 3-4 months for drop to run it again and get it delivered. Just bad timing (of my interest spark) on my part. I bought the HD6XX at the same time. My first real pair of headphones and amp. But I never regretted spending what I did, even if most of the components aren’t original anymore.


Will be my first headphone amp aswell, apart from my BTR5 for my Oppo PM3. But that one does not need much... The incoming Aeolus, does.


----------



## therremans

For anyone interested, Link 1, Link 2, Link 3


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> For anyone interested, Link 1, Link 2, Link 3


Your Link2...I can never get myself to get over that ITT logo...I always think ITT technical institute not a tube making company...


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Your Link2...I can never get myself to get over that ITT logo...I always think ITT technical institute not a tube making company...


I thought the same thing, haha.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Dumb but important question... how does one discharge his power caps? I typically just leave things unplugged for 24-48 hours and assume the caps will discharge naturally.


http://www.funtechtalk.com/this-is-why-you-never-touch-your-tongue-to-a-capacitor/


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone mind recommending me a good 10w/200 ohm wirewound resistor? I forgot to get those when getting the rest of my parts...


----------



## DeweyCH

Also... and sorry to keep asking stuff... am I correct in assuming that I can't get the power switch out w/o removing the front plate, and can't get the front plate off w/o removing the 4 screws on the inside front?


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone mind recommending me a good 10w/200 ohm wirewound resistor? I forgot to get those when getting the rest of my parts...


mills 12W
Vishay 10w


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Also... and sorry to keep asking stuff... am I correct in assuming that I can't get the power switch out w/o removing the front plate, and can't get the front plate off w/o removing the 4 screws on the inside front?


Correct, a long Phillips worked for mine. Also, don’t forget the 8 screws surrounding the volume knob.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> No worries, there's plenty of Googlable ideas out there, just wondered if there was a 'works for me' method you'd recommend. I'll probably just try the resistor-in-a-wire method.



The easiest way to (mostly) discharge the caps in the DV is to just turn the amp off while leaving the music playing at a moderate volume level.  You'll notice that the music keeps on playin' for 4 or 5 seconds, then it will start to sound all fuzzy and gritty, and then the volume will begin to decrease and eventually go dead silent. That's just all the energy stored in the caps draining out.  Leave the amp plugged in (_but turned off_) for another 10 minutes or so to be safe -- if you unplug it, you've removed the ground path through the earth ground for any residual cap voltage to drain out.  After that you should be good to go, _just be sure to remember to unplug the power cord at that point and before you remove the bottom cover._ If there's any charge left in the caps it's going to be so minimal that it won't even be felt if you touch one of the terminals.  Note that I'm only talking about the DV here that has relatively small caps.  More powerful amps with (much) larger capacitors are best drained via a resistor placed between the negative and positive terminals of the caps.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> http://www.funtechtalk.com/this-is-why-you-never-touch-your-tongue-to-a-capacitor/



LOL!  They should have fired the guy with the fried tongue too. Obviously way too stupid to be working on people's cars.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  They should have fired the guy with the fried tongue too. Obviously way too stupid to be working on people's cars.


What about whoever hired “fried tongue”?


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> Yes but you get to live in Brasov, so that's awesome. My first ever trip to visit my in-laws in Bucharest, we ended up going to Brasov and skiing in Poiana Brasov. Love that part of the world.


Yeah there's that. Beats tubes... just be sure to slip a few in the luggage next time you drop by


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The easiest way to (mostly) discharge the caps in the DV is to just turn the amp off while leaving the music playing at a moderate volume level.  You'll notice that the music keeps on playin' for 4 or 5 seconds, then it will start to sound all fuzzy and gritty, and then the volume will begin to decrease and eventually go dead silent. That's just all the energy stored in the caps draining out.  Leave the amp plugged in (_but turned off_) for another 10 minutes or so to be safe -- if you unplug it, you've removed the ground path through the earth ground for any residual cap voltage to drain out.  After that you should be good to go, _just be sure to remember to unplug the power cord at that point and before you remove the bottom cover._ If there's any charge left in the caps it's going to be so minimal that it won't even be felt if you touch one of the terminals.  Note that I'm only talking about the DV here that has relatively small caps.  More powerful amps with (much) larger capacitors are best drained via a resistor placed between the negative and positive terminals of the caps.


Thanks! I always keep music going and listen to it fizzle out whenever I turn off the DV. Now I guess I know why!


----------



## bcowen (Feb 5, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> What about whoever hired “fried tongue”?



Yeah, him or her too. And probably whoever hired that person as well.   With home audio stuff we're dealing with capacitors that have microfarad (uF) values. In car audio, you can be dealing with full farad value caps (sometimes multiple farads), which have, um, way more farads.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Yeah, him or her too. And probably whoever hired that person as well.   With home audio stuff we're dealing with capacitors that have microfarad (uF) values. In car audio, you can be dealing with full farad value caps (sometimes multiple farads), which have, um, way more farads.


Not way more farads!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Not way more farads!



Yes, it's true.  I read it on the internet.


----------



## DeweyCH

Is there any value to putting sound dampening material in the DV? I've read that people put like Dynamat on the underside of the plate on a Crack; is there anything similar that's been tried w/this?


----------



## DeweyCH

Progress... all in the disassembly process, but progress nonetheless.










At least now I know I can get to the sockets and get them out. A lot of self-doubt goes into starting something like this, but every little mini DV project I complete lowers that. I do think it's worthwhile for me to rebuild the pot board as well, since it's out again.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Progress... all in the disassembly process, but progress nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Psssssst:  the taking apart part is the easy part.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Psssssst:  the taking apart part is the easy part.


I kind of disagree. The process of disassembly is useful to see how exactly everything goes together. Probably just the way I learn but disassembly is always the most stressful part to me.


----------



## bcowen

Tonight's roll:  50's Tungsram ECC40 and Chatham graphite 6080.  Too early to tell, but some nice harmonic bloom in the mids which is a plus paired up with the Chatham.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I kind of disagree. The process of disassembly is useful to see how exactly everything goes together. Probably just the way I learn but disassembly is always the most stressful part to me.



The stressful part for me is remembering where everything is supposed to go, and what to do with all those extra parts that are left when you're done.


----------



## therremans

Someone please buy these, Tung-Sol 6J5G Pair.
I have the GT version and they do sound great. It’s a rare tube to see pop up. Although, another pair recently sold for $80-$90. This pair, one is labeled VT-94A and the other is standard label. It won’t matter though as far as matching internally goes. They seem to be about the same year. Early 40s.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Someone please buy these, Tung-Sol 6J5G Pair.
> I have the GT version and they do sound great. It’s a rare tube to see pop up. Although, another pair recently sold for $80-$90. This pair, one is labeled VT-94A and the other is standard label. It won’t matter though as far as matching internally goes. They seem to be about the same year. Early 40s.


I'm tempted but I just ordered a pair of GEC L63 tubes, a CBS 5692 and a pair of Visseaux 6J5MJs. I really shouldn't. At least, not until my DV is reassembled and working again.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Tonight's roll:  50's Tungsram ECC40 and Chatham graphite 6080.  Too early to tell, but some nice harmonic bloom in the mids which is a plus paired up with the Chatham.



Hows them ECC40s treating you overall? Still one of my personal favs


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Someone please buy these, Tung-Sol 6J5G Pair.
> I have the GT version and they do sound great. It’s a rare tube to see pop up. Although, another pair recently sold for $80-$90. This pair, one is labeled VT-94A and the other is standard label. It won’t matter though as far as matching internally goes. They seem to be about the same year. Early 40s.



I would if it wasn't for the seller who is already on the "beware" list with the seriously out-of-calibration TV-3 tester. At the 150v the TV-3 puts to the plate on this tube a NOS value would be around 2800, and he's claiming 3125 and 3000?  Highly unlikely.  He can't even read the tube data correctly, as minimum GM for a 6J5 on a Hickok TV-3 is 1640, not 1625 as he states.  

This directly out of the Hickok TV-3 setup chart:


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hows them ECC40s treating you overall? Still one of my personal favs



Sounds quite nice, actually.  It didn't light my fire when I tried it in the Lyr 3. Not bad sounding in any way, just didn't get my groove-thang going.  But I'm liking a lot about it in the Darkvoice right now.  Not sure the graphite Chatham 6080 is the best mate for it...need to roll around a Mullard 6080 and Chatham 6AS7G and see how they pair up.  I have some Valvo ECC40's too that I *really* didn't like in the Lyr 3, but it may be an entirely different story with them in the DV so I'll give them a re-whirl.  

And then I spied some ECC84's sitting next to the ECC40's.  Would you believe that I don't have a 6SN7 adapter for those?  Sheeez.  I have a 6922 adapter for them, but no 6SN7 adapter.  I'm pretty ashamed of myself.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Someone please buy these, Tung-Sol 6J5G Pair.
> I have the GT version and they do sound great. It’s a rare tube to see pop up. Although, another pair recently sold for $80-$90. This pair, one is labeled VT-94A and the other is standard label. It won’t matter though as far as matching internally goes. They seem to be about the same year. Early 40s.



Does this sound similar to TS BGRP?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Does this sound similar to TS BGRP?


Likely not.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Someone please buy these, Tung-Sol 6J5G Pair.
> I have the GT version and they do sound great. It’s a rare tube to see pop up. Although, another pair recently sold for $80-$90. This pair, one is labeled VT-94A and the other is standard label. It won’t matter though as far as matching internally goes. They seem to be about the same year. Early 40s.



If @bcowen did not put telefunken 12au7 smooth plates on my radar I might have taken a flyer on these...


----------



## Damok

My tubes came in today! I am still waiting on the adapter for the Sylvania tubes but thats ok, since I was a little to quick on the draw (very excited) I didnt notice that Drop wont even start shipping the DarkVoice's until the end of March lol. However I greatly appreciate all the help provided in this thread, one day soon I hope to enjoy real tube goodness, until then I will keep using my Vali 2+ as its still very enjoyable.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> If @bcowen did not put telefunken 12au7 smooth plates on my radar I might have taken a flyer on these...



Geeeez.  How many times do I have to tell you guys that if someone needs blaming for something, it's @JKDJedi .  I'm _always_ innocent.


----------



## Ad720

Still have the GE JAN (86-30) in but tonight it's accompanied by the Silvertone. I haven't popped this one in for a while and I don't know why - it's a great tube. Last time I posted about it the suggestion was it was a rebranded Sylvania. 

I've found the GE JAN to be the soundstage king which makes it a nice companion to this Silvertone which I find to be very upfront. I'm losing some of the clarity that I enjoy with other combinations but as far as non-critical listening goes, this is a nice setup.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Geeeez.  How many times do I have to tell you guys that if someone needs blaming for something, it's @JKDJedi .  I'm _always_ innocent.



What? Its Jedi now? I thought it was Ripper…


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> This one was done by @Absoltuion .  The green text is the components spec voltage, and the yellow is his measured voltage (and red text for resistors).


Since this photo has the LED mod does anyone mind confirming that the two resistors typically going to the pins at 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock are 1m ohm like the one at the very bottom?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Since this photo has the LED mod does anyone mind confirming that the two resistors typically going to the pins at 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock are 1m ohm like the one at the very bottom?



The cathode resistors on pins 3 and 6 of the 6SN7 socket are 1k, not 1 meg.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The cathode resistors on pins 3 and 6 of the 6SN7 socket are 1k, not 1 meg.


Oh. Is the photo I’ve been using as a reference wrong?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh. Is the photo I’ve been using as a reference wrong?



I don't know.  What photo are you using?  If it's the one from your last post, the cathode resistors were replaced with the LED's in that photo and there is no resistor value shown. If you're putting LED's in to bias the cathodes (pins 3 and 6), the resistors need to be removed.  If you're swapping resistors with a different type, the resistance value still needs to be 1k.  The 1 meg resistors are the grid resistors on pins 1 and 4, and the anode (plate) resistors on pins 2 and 5 are 30k.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Sounds quite nice, actually.  It didn't light my fire when I tried it in the Lyr 3. Not bad sounding in any way, just didn't get my groove-thang going.  But I'm liking a lot about it in the Darkvoice right now.  Not sure the graphite Chatham 6080 is the best mate for it...need to roll around a Mullard 6080 and Chatham 6AS7G and see how they pair up.  I have some Valvo ECC40's too that I *really* didn't like in the Lyr 3, but it may be an entirely different story with them in the DV so I'll give them a re-whirl.
> 
> And then I spied some ECC84's sitting next to the ECC40's.  Would you believe that I don't have a 6SN7 adapter for those?  Sheeez.  I have a 6922 adapter for them, but no 6SN7 adapter.  I'm pretty ashamed of myself.


Well, what about a 6922->6SN7 adapter in between? 🤷🏻


----------



## therremans

Ken-Rad VT-231


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> I don't know.  What photo are you using?  If it's the one from your last post, the cathode resistors were replaced with the LED's in that photo and there is no resistor value shown. If you're putting LED's in to bias the cathodes (pins 3 and 6), the resistors need to be removed.  If you're swapping resistors with a different type, the resistance value still needs to be 1k.  The 1 meg resistors are the grid resistors on pins 1 and 4, and the anode (plate) resistors on pins 2 and 5 are 30k.


Ohhhhhhh okay. That's got me there. Yeah, I was not sure if the 3 and 6 resistors (since I did the Fitz mod rather than the LED one) were supposed to be the same value as the 1 and 4 resistors. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## DeweyCH

Good thing I didn’t start soldering before getting everything in place. Just in time too, those Foton 6N8Ses and a CBS 5692 are arriving tomorrow!


----------



## SHIMACM

I know it's a little bit of the topic, but as I know that the people here are very cool, I'll ask the question here.

Could you point me to a quality power cord and RCA cable that does not empty my wallet.

I don't know anything about cables and any help is welcome.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I know it's a little bit of the topic, but as I know that the people here are very cool, I'll ask the question here.
> 
> Could you point me to a quality power cord and RCA cable that does not empty my wallet.
> 
> I don't know anything about cables and any help is welcome.



Uh-oh.  I hear the hinges creaking as the lid of Pandora's box is opening....  

I make my own.  Not necessarily cheap depending on what components you choose, but I've been happy with the results after a lot of experimentation. If you don't want to DIY, just a couple suggestions below to look at for well made, reasonably priced stuff (and I'm sure others can chime in with suggestions as well):

https://www.cablesforless.com/

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

If you want to get into the boutique and mega-$$$ cables, certainly nothing wrong with that and more power to you.  But I'm out of that conversation before it even starts 'cause even Pandora will go running for cover.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> I know it's a little bit of the topic, but as I know that the people here are very cool, I'll ask the question here.
> 
> Could you point me to a quality power cord and RCA cable that does not empty my wallet.
> 
> I don't know anything about cables and any help is welcome.


Have you looked on AliExpress?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I know it's a little bit of the topic, but as I know that the people here are very cool, I'll ask the question here.
> 
> Could you point me to a quality power cord and RCA cable that does not empty my wallet.
> 
> I don't know anything about cables and any help is welcome.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01L2MBYW...abc_2Z75JCVP06APB9Q6WJB7?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A7SGD6...abc_BETG6XZYYHRADF9TD2G1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## JKDJedi

And this arrived just before the Superbowl... might be missing the first quarter 😂

lol


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And this arrived just before the Superbowl... might be missing the first quarter 😂
> lol



Cool....just test the actual output voltage with your Fluke as the built-in meter is likely going to be grossly inaccurate (was on mine anyway). The device itself works well, just not the meter installed in it.  

I got one of these so that I could monitor the output voltage under load -- meter plugged into one outlet, and the device in use in the other:  

https://www.amazon.com/Cablelera-Po...ower+cord+splitter&qid=1612739666&sr=8-4&th=1


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Cool....just test the actual output voltage with your Fluke as the built-in meter is likely going to be grossly inaccurate (was on mine anyway). The device itself works well, just not the meter installed in it.
> 
> I got one of these so that I could monitor the output voltage under load -- meter plugged into one outlet, and the device in use in the other:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Cablelera-Power-Extension-Splitter-ZWACPQAG-14/dp/B019WARI9Y/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=power+cord+splitter&qid=1612739666&sr=8-4&th=1


That's a great idea. I just dialed it in till I got the 6.3v I was looking for. If I was going by the dial I'd be at 100v out..LOL.. so yes..slightly off. The good.. things/sound/ouput appears more open and more analog sounding. The BAd..there's a left hiss (not noticeable when playing) that I'm sure has to do with a dirty pin. That or the little red unit is just breaking in. Cool experiment, didn't take long to dial in with that socket adapter.


----------



## DenverW

therremans said:


> Have you looked on AliExpress?



Im also going to mention DIY aspect of power cables. I’ve made a Bottlehead cable twice and been very impressed with the actual noticeable difference. I’ve also made a crazy one with duelund wire and insulated with steel shot.

I’m a big fan of super ugly cables that sound great.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 7, 2021)

DenverW said:


> Im also going to mention DIY aspect of power cables. I’ve made a Bottlehead cable twice and been very impressed with the actual noticeable difference. I’ve also made a crazy one with duelund wire and insulated with steel shot.
> 
> I’m a big fan of super ugly cables that sound great.



I've messed around with quite a few, including some put together using Chris VenHaus's designs:

http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html

Mixed success with those, and finally got better results using pre-made bulk cable and just adding some good connectors.  The Neotech AC cable is quite nice:

http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/wire-power-c-296_178

But my favorite is the Oyaide Black Mamba V2.  Add some good connectors and you have a *really* nice sounding AC cord.  Not cheap, but way less expensive than some of the exotic stuff out there.  Note I have no experience with the sellers below, just showing them for reference on the cord:

Bulk:
https://www.ebay.com/p/20028465790

Ready to go:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1244085682...XwCpUJtwxGyvEVF2QGsS3DrGOUGnNBi4aAt9QEALw_wcB

Note: be careful about getting genuine Oyaide cable. Lots of fakes out there. Buying from a Japanese (and not Chinese) seller is preferable in this instance.

Below are a couple of mine with the Black Mamba cable, Furutech connectors, and a little sleeving to make them pretty.  Sound great.  Also, while the Furutech connectors are *extremely* nice and well made, they're expensive as all hell too.  You can get some very nice ones for way less, like these Viborgs:

https://www.amazon.com/Viborg-Copper-Rhodium-Plated-Connector/dp/B01N9MSK9J/ref=sr_1_26_sspa?crid=3IETCP2ADKO4L&dchild=1&keywords=furutech+connector&qid=1612750209&sprefix=furutech,aps,173&sr=8-26-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzRUJXQjVWSUpRVkpZJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzE3MTA1UzRYRDdRMk41RVBTJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0MjE2MTEyWjFKNDIyUUtLSFQ4JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1


----------



## DenverW

Those are nice looking cables!  Way better aesthetically than mine . One of my cables has some nice blue duct tape at the ends .

I found this connector fairly good for the inexpensive price:   SONAR QUEST CRYO Ag Audio Grade Silver plated IEC plug + US main plug sonarquest | eBay 

Consider this thread officially derailed!


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Those are nice looking cables!  Way better aesthetically than mine . One of my cables has some nice blue duct tape at the ends .
> 
> I found this connector fairly good for the inexpensive price:   SONAR QUEST CRYO Ag Audio Grade Silver plated IEC plug + US main plug sonarquest | eBay
> 
> Consider this thread officially derailed!


You have to plug the Darkvoice into something I guess ..why not use a nice cable? 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> Those are nice looking cables!  Way better aesthetically than mine . One of my cables has some nice blue duct tape at the ends .
> 
> I found this connector fairly good for the inexpensive price:   SONAR QUEST CRYO Ag Audio Grade Silver plated IEC plug + US main plug sonarquest | eBay
> 
> Consider this thread officially derailed!


Thread DV officially DR by DW it is...🙄


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> Those are nice looking cables!  Way better aesthetically than mine . One of my cables has some nice blue duct tape at the ends .
> 
> I found this connector fairly good for the inexpensive price:   SONAR QUEST CRYO Ag Audio Grade Silver plated IEC plug + US main plug sonarquest | eBay
> 
> Consider this thread officially derailed!



Your link doesn't go to a specific page -- just opens up Ebay. ?

I haven't tried the SonarQuest silver plated versions, although I have tried their unplated copper ones.  Very nice bang for the buck, IMO.  The Furutechs are great if you're doing some experimenting as the internal screws and threads will take a lot of tightening/loosening/retightening rounds with no ill effect.  The less expensive China ones like the SonarQuests and Viborgs are fine for putting something together once or twice, but the screws/threads don't have the same durability for cable "rolling" -- they will strip out more easily with repeated cycles.  But for a "one and done" (with no apologies to Kentucky basketball ), they're a very good choice for a quite reasonable price.  I am not a fan of brass (and hate nickel) as conductor materials in connectors, so any connector that offers pure copper (unplated, or plated using silver, gold, or rhodium that's applied directly to the copper) sounds better to my ears.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well looky looky here. If only my amp weren't still disassembled (waiting on a Mouser order to fill in the resistors I missed), but we've got examples of both sides of the Cold War doing their thing. Or, ready to do their thing, I guess.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Well looky looky here. If only my amp weren't still disassembled (waiting on a Mouser order to fill in the resistors I missed), but we've got examples of both sides of the Cold War doing their thing. Or, ready to do their thing, I guess.


Nice grab. 😎


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, thank you very much for the recommendations.

I really didn't want to break the bank with cables.

I just wanted to exchange my generic and extremely cheap cables for decent cables.

I looked at the link you sent me, but shipping and taxes made the cables too expensive for me.

I ended up buying the following cables in Brazil:

RCA - Absolute Wave 400.

Power - Supra Lorad Power Cable - Made In Sweden.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, thank you very much for the recommendations.
> 
> I really didn't want to break the bank with cables.
> 
> ...


those look pretty good. 🙂


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, thank you very much for the recommendations.
> 
> I really didn't want to break the bank with cables.
> 
> ...



Look nice!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well looky looky here. If only my amp weren't still disassembled (waiting on a Mouser order to fill in the resistors I missed), but we've got examples of both sides of the Cold War doing their thing. Or, ready to do their thing, I guess.



Nice!  Two very different sounding tubes, to be sure.  I like them both.  

Funny thing...the CBS/Hytron 5692 was one of my favorites in many different pieces of Cary gear over the years.  Tried it in the Lyr 3 when I first got it, and it left me pretty flat.  Just kind of boring and unremarkable.  But in the DV?  Paired with the right output tube it has regained it's previous stature.  It's especially happy with a Russian 6N5S -- mine are labeled Amperex and were made in England (LOL!) but they're good ol' Svetlana's in reality.  The CBS 5692 is on the warmer side of things so pairs best with a more energetic power tube, but it resolves midrange harmonic detail and tone like few others.  Haven't tried it with the graphite Chatham 6080 yet...need to do that.  And be sure to give those Fotons some break-in time.  Even if there are no issues with the pin solder, they will change quite noticeably in the first 15-20 hours of play (IME).


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Nice!  Two very different sounding tubes, to be sure.  I like them both.
> 
> Funny thing...the CBS/Hytron 5692 was one of my favorites in many different pieces of Cary gear over the years.  Tried it in the Lyr 3 when I first got it, and it left me pretty flat.  Just kind of boring and unremarkable.  But in the DV?  Paired with the right output tube it has regained it's previous stature.  It's especially happy with a Russian 6N5S -- mine are labeled Amperex and were made in England (LOL!) but they're good ol' Svetlana's in reality.  The CBS 5692 is on the warmer side of things so pairs best with a more energetic power tube, but it resolves midrange harmonic detail and tone like few others.  Haven't tried it with the graphite Chatham 6080 yet...need to do that.  And be sure to give those Fotons some break-in time.  Even if there are no issues with the pin solder, they will change quite noticeably in the first 15-20 hours of play (IME).


I'm thinking the warmth of the CBS will balance nicely with the neutrality of my Auteurs. I'll try it with my 5998 and my Mullard 6080, maybe also with a pair of GEC A2293s.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Nice!  Two very different sounding tubes, to be sure.  I like them both.
> 
> Funny thing...the CBS/Hytron 5692 was one of my favorites in many different pieces of Cary gear over the years.  Tried it in the Lyr 3 when I first got it, and it left me pretty flat.  Just kind of boring and unremarkable.  But in the DV?  Paired with the right output tube it has regained it's previous stature.  It's especially happy with a Russian 6N5S -- mine are labeled Amperex and were made in England (LOL!) but they're good ol' Svetlana's in reality.  The CBS 5692 is on the warmer side of things so pairs best with a more energetic power tube, but it resolves midrange harmonic detail and tone like few others.  Haven't tried it with the graphite Chatham 6080 yet...need to do that.  And be sure to give those Fotons some break-in time.  Even if there are no issues with the pin solder, they will change quite noticeably in the first 15-20 hours of play (IME).



Since I know less about power tubes than I do about pre tubes…

How do you match tubes up? Just trial and error, or is it a given that pre tube "X" will match well with power tube "Y". I don't think I ever read anybody mention that you should be using the same brand for both tubes, so I'm assuming that's not a thing.

Forgive my silly questions. It's been -40 wind chills for the past few days, the old grey matter is firing rather slowly


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Since I know less about power tubes than I do about pre tubes…
> 
> How do you match tubes up? Just trial and error, or is it a given that pre tube "X" will match well with power tube "Y". I don't think I ever read anybody mention that you should be using the same brand for both tubes, so I'm assuming that's not a thing.
> 
> Forgive my silly questions. It's been -40 wind chills for the past few days, the old grey matter is firing rather slowly



For me, it's trial and error.  If the resulting sound is, for instance, too warm, then I'll try a "less warm" driver or power tube.  And vice versa if it is lacking in warmth.  Some combinations just seem to click.  Some don't.  And it's probably safe to say that personal preference and ancillary equipment enter the mix as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Since I know less about power tubes than I do about pre tubes…
> 
> How do you match tubes up? Just trial and error, or is it a given that pre tube "X" will match well with power tube "Y". I don't think I ever read anybody mention that you should be using the same brand for both tubes, so I'm assuming that's not a thing.
> 
> Forgive my silly questions. It's been -40 wind chills for the past few days, the old grey matter is firing rather slowly


What Bill said, and I try members recommended pairings when they post that devine moment they found the Answer.  🙂


----------



## DeweyCH

How in the actual screw do you get those screws out of the inside of the front panel?!? It's like they're pre-stripped and held in with Gorilla Glue.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> How in the actual screw do you get those screws out of the inside of the front panel?!? It's like they're pre-stripped and held in with Gorilla Glue.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> For me, it's trial and error.  If the resulting sound is, for instance, too warm, then I'll try a "less warm" driver or power tube.  And vice versa if it is lacking in warmth.  Some combinations just seem to click.  Some don't.  And it's probably safe to say that personal preference and ancillary equipment enter the mix as well.


Really… but you're the Tube Whisperer. I've heard you can tell how a tube will sound just by holding it up to your ear.
Man… this is like losing a childhood hero


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


>


If that doesn't work I'm making my own napalm


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Really… but you're the Tube Whisperer. I've heard you can tell how a tube will sound just by holding it up to your ear.
> Man… this is like losing a childhood hero


I tend to do the Uncle Fester test: the brighter it lights up when I stick it in my ear, the better a power tube it is.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Alright, phase 1 of the DarkVoice modifications is done.  Took some troubleshooting, but everything is working as intended so far.

Here is what I did:

1) Removed CRCRC-CRC filter from the power supply - replaced with single 330uF resevoir cap and HV regulator
2) Removed plate resistor load from 6SN7 input tube - replaced with DN2540 - J310 gyrator load
3) Removed 6080 1K wirewound cathode resistors - replaced with Vishay 1.2K non-inductive wirewound resistors
4) Removed 6SN7 1K cathode resistors - replaced with KOA Spear 300ohm carbon film resistors

The goal was to use the original mounting hardware and wiring as much as possible, so the regulator and gyrator PCBs are both mounted using the existing standoffs for the old electrolytic capacitors.  I used the original ground bus, but removed excess portions of it.

Here are the new tube bias points:
B+ 180VDC
6SN7: 80Va / 4.5mA / 1.4Vk
6080: 75Va / 85mA / 105Vk

This aligns very well with my simulations.  Here are some pics.

 

And now the reward 



From memory, there is a significant increase in soundstage and clarity as you might expect with an active loaded input tube, it sounds very good....granted, I only spent a short time with the stock DarkVoice, so it will be interesting to hear how it compares to the original and the La Figaro 339 when it is sent back to its owner.

Still more to do be done, phase 2 will involve fixing the heaters to hopefully get rid of the ridiculous hum issue.  Phase 2 might also include increasing the output capacitance, will also be replacing the pot and power switch.  Probably won't get to it until next weekend.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Alright, phase 1 of the DarkVoice modifications is done.  Took some troubleshooting, but everything is working as intended so far.
> 
> Here is what I did:
> 
> ...



*S W E E T!*


----------



## L0rdGwyn

This amp is pretty impressive, I think you will be happy @Galapac  I'm very curious how it will stack up against the La Figaro 339, will be eager to hear your thoughts when it is sent back.


----------



## Galapac (Feb 8, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> This amp is pretty impressive, I think you will be happy @Galapac  I'm very curious how it will stack up against the La Figaro 339, will be eager to hear your thoughts when it is sent back.


I will definitely write up a review of sorts of the stock DV vs. the LGDV, and how it stacks up against the 339i. I have plenty of tubes to roll in it but for sake of comparison I will keep the power tubes the same as each amp has a 6AS7G/6080 socket. The drivers are a bit different but I will use my best 6SN7s in DV and 6SJ7 in the 339i. I am honored to hear what you have done with the DV.


----------



## JKDJedi

Brought the NU out ... 🙂 #laidback


----------



## SHIMACM

My two motorola / sylvania 6j5gt tubes arrived.

One of them is making a noise, looking like he has something loose inside him.

This is normal?

Should I worry?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> My two motorola / sylvania 6j5gt tubes arrived.
> 
> One of them is making a noise, looking like he has something loose inside him.
> 
> ...


like a hum or? if it sounds like static try cleaning the pins real good.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> like a hum or? if it sounds like static try cleaning the pins real good.



It has no noise at all. The noise is mechanical when I swing the tube outside the amplifier. It looks like there's something loose inside the tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> It has no noise at all. The noise is mechanical when I swing the tube outside the amplifier. It looks like there's something loose inside the tube.


Probably a short then if no sound is coming out. Don't use that tube.


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> It has no noise at all. The noise is mechanical when I swing the tube outside the amplifier. It looks like there's something loose inside the tube.


You mean it works fine but you can hear a rattling when you shake the tube?


----------



## therremans

Loose glass happens. I may have owned one tube that had it. I’ve definitely read about it with some 5998s. It should be fine as it likely came out of the factory that way.


----------



## SHIMACM

DeweyCH said:


> You mean it works fine but you can hear a rattling when you shake the tube?



Yes. It works very well. But as I swing the tube, I hear something loose inside it. I just can't see.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Probably a short then if no sound is coming out. Don't use that tube.



The sound is perfect.


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> Yes. It works very well. But as I swing the tube, I hear something loose inside it. I just can't see.


You should be fine, then. I've got a couple of tubes that make a rattling sound if you shake them, they all work perfectly well and sound good. Same as if you have an incandescent light bulb - you might be able to hear rattling if you shake it, but if you put it in a socket and it turns on, it's fine.

(I think...)


----------



## therremans

New arrivals..


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> New arrivals..


Hawt


----------



## SHIMACM

I managed to see what it is.

It is a piece of glass loose inside the tube.

Is there really no danger in using it?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

As long as the tube works, loose glass isn't going to hurt anything.  Sometimes a piece will break off where the electrode wires meet the tube base, as long as the vacuum is maintained, it isn't an issue.  Often times what you are hearing when you can hear loose bits rattling inside the tube but cannot see anything is the bonding material that keeps the tube base attached.  It flakes off over time and is loose inside the base.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> As long as the tube works, loose glass isn't going to hurt anything.  Sometimes a piece will break off where the electrode wires meet the tube base, as long as the vacuum is maintained, it isn't an issue.  Often times what you are hearing when you can hear loose bits rattling inside the tube but cannot see anything is the bonding material that keeps the tube base attached.  It flakes off over time and is loose inside the base.


Yes, or the base itself is loose enough to cause a rattle. I found this to be concerning if basically the pin solder is all that’s holding the base on. One must be careful and try to rock the base to secure or remove the tube from its socket and not the glass. For driver tubes, a few dabs of super glue around the base works to secure it back in place. Just be quick with some alcohol and a small piece of cloth to wipe up the excess and it shouldn’t be evident that you glued it at all.


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> I managed to see what it is.
> 
> It is a piece of glass loose inside the tube.
> 
> Is there really no danger in using it?


Nah. Should be fine. Glass is an electrical insulator, so as long as the tube itself is intact, there's not much of anything it can do.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Trying to take things over the top with a 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter.




Really liking what I am hearing out of this amplifier.  I have a bunch of OTL tubes without an amplifier for them, I might consider building this circuit from scratch for myself in a chassis that can fit giant output capacitors and enough space to load the 6080 cathode with a choke or a FET current sink.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Trying to take things over the top with a 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> 
> 
> Really liking what I am hearing out of this amplifier.  I have a bunch of OTL tubes without an amplifier for them, I might consider building this circuit from scratch for myself in a chassis that can fit giant output capacitors and enough space to load the 6080 cathode with a choke or a FET current sink.



OK, so I'm slobbering all over my keyboard right now.      Can't wait to hear what you think when you get done with round 2 (bigger output caps, volume control, heater wiring/center tap and all).  Just changing the volume control to a 50k Alps made a quite audible improvement in mine (but I also put better wire in at the same time).  Question though: you mentioned changing the power switch.  Is the one that's in there just a piece of junk, or is this more of an ergonomic / preference thing?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> OK, so I'm slobbering all over my keyboard right now.      Can't wait to hear what you think when you get done with round 2 (bigger output caps, volume control, heater wiring/center tap and all).  Just changing the volume control to a 50k Alps made a quite audible improvement in mine (but I also put better wire in at the same time).  Question though: you mentioned changing the power switch.  Is the one that's in there just a piece of junk, or is this more of an ergonomic / preference thing?



It is more of an ergonomic / preference thing, per @Galapac 's request, shouldn't make any difference in terms of performance, except for the endorphin surge when the thing is clicked on


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> It is more of an ergonomic / preference thing, per @Galapac 's request, shouldn't make any difference in terms of performance, except for the endorphin surge when the thing is clicked on



Whew.  I was hoping this wasn't another rabbit hole I'd fall into unsuspectingly.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> New arrivals..


I'm trying to kick Tube Porn and this drops...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm trying to kick Tube Porn and this drops...



This is like a recovering alcoholic going to a bar....and blaming the bar.


----------



## therremans

My eBay links aren’t helping any? Well, once you own one of everything worthwhile like @bcowen (and multiples) it’s pretty easy to stop searching for that new tube.


----------



## DeweyCH

I did a stupid and broke off one of the pins on my Alps pot trying to remove it from its pcb. Two questions:

Can I just solder a pin onto the little bit of exposed metal left where the pin once was?

And can anyone assure me this stepped attenuator is ready to use out of the box? I was saving it for when my Crack arrives but figure it’s a nice match for the DV.

The reason I ask if it’s good out of the box is that most of the attenuators I’ve seen are pretty huge, with a ton of resistors sticking out of them. @therremans recommended it and that’s a strong rec. So I figure the answer is “yes,” but I’m asking anyhoos.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I did a stupid and broke off one of the pins on my Alps pot trying to remove it from its pcb. Two questions:
> 
> Can I just solder a pin onto the little bit of exposed metal left where the pin once was?



You can try.  Note that Alps pots have very specific soldering guidelines (IIRC 550 degrees for a max of 5 seconds...ONE time) for the pots we're using.  You risk melting or deforming the conductive plastic discs inside it. But at this point it's unusable, so trying to solder a pin back on there isn't going to make it any less unusable.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> My eBay links aren’t helping any? Well, once you own one of everything worthwhile like @bcowen (and multiples) it’s pretty easy to stop searching for that new tube.



Wait a minute.  There's _lots _of tubes I don't have. At least I think there's lots...better go re-check the stash.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I did a stupid and broke off one of the pins on my Alps pot trying to remove it from its pcb. Two questions:
> 
> Can I just solder a pin onto the little bit of exposed metal left where the pin once was?
> 
> ...


It should be good out of the box, an Smd resistor is just a smaller version of a standard resistor and much cheaper in my experience. I prefer Dale resistors myself as well as some older Alps stepped pots that are not easy to find.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wait a minute.  There's _lots _of tubes I don't have. At least I think there's lots...better go re-check the stash.


Is it true that for @bcowen NOS means “never over stocked”?.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Is it true that for @bcowen NOS means “never over stocked”?.



LOL!  "Over stocked" is as much an oxymoron as "New Old."  Regarding tubes, I mean.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It should be good out of the box, an Smd resistor is just a smaller version of a standard resistor and much cheaper in my experience. I prefer Dale resistors myself as well as some older Alps stepped pots that are not easy to find.


There’s a loooooooot of Dale attenuators on eBay... fairly cheap. I’m gonna guess those aren’t an upgrade on mine.


----------



## DeweyCH

Incidentally... a stepped attenuator negate the need for the shunt mod, correct?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> There’s a loooooooot of Dale attenuators on eBay... fairly cheap. I’m gonna guess those aren’t an upgrade on mine.


Really???? Are the SMD’s rated at 1 or 2% accuracy?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally... a stepped attenuator negate the need for the shunt mod, correct?


A stepped attenuator has fixed resistances a standard potentiometer has a continual reading over the same span. It is more about the type of contact. 100k is still 100k😺


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> A stepped attenuator has fixed resistances a standard potentiometer has a continual reading over the same span. It is more about the type of contact. 100k is still 100k😺


So that means 21 (or whatever many resistors) fixed volume settings. How are the gradations? I know with my old Fiio X3, which has a digitally controlled analogue volume, there was a pretty big jump between volume settings - IIRC that was back when it was using 50 steps


----------



## therremans

*5692 - RCA, GE, CBS/Hytron*

I have found conflicting information if GE or RCA was the actual manufacturer of the famous red based tube. This could be because although RCA introduced the tube schematic in 1949, but may very well have contracted GE to build the tubes.

_"The original 5692 was introduced by RCA in 1949. RCA red base 5692 were never manufactured by RCA, they were built under contract by General Electric. General Electric branded 5692 red base tubes are also quite common, are identical of course to the RCA's, and generally sell for less." - robert 07/25/01_

Although it is agreed on that CBS/Hytron, Raytheon, Sylvania and Standard Electric out of Sweden, all manufactured the 5692 out of their own plants, which all carried brown bases. The 5692 has a plate voltage of 275V (max), where as the 6SN7 is 450V. I found the 5692 to work very well with the Darkvoice but when it comes to longevity of running the 5692 in a 6SN7 circuit, I cannot say. It is a tube rated for a long life of 10,000 hours.





*1962 RCA, 1956 GE, (Unk.) CBS Hytron.*

Sound: As with any tube's experience, it is *really *dependent on the output tube, amplifier circuit, headphones, source, etc. They all have a similar sound signature but I found my GE to have the most detail and clarity. This could be the year manufactured or possibly the tube scores higher on a tester, etc. Or in fact the GE from the mid 50s is an outstanding tube. I enjoyed it with the Graphite plated 6080 or the Chatham 6AS7G. It is quite versatile not only with output tubes but with music genres. My CBS/Hytron had quite a bit of mid bloom in comparison and this example just wasn't as attractive as the neutral, full bodied, textured mids, and transparent sounding GE red base. 




*Chatham 6080 (gp) + GE 5692*


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 9, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> So that means 21 (or whatever many resistors) fixed volume settings. How are the gradations? I know with my old Fiio X3, which has a digitally controlled analogue volume, there was a pretty big jump between volume settings - IIRC that was back when it was using 50 steps


There are a couple types of graduations, linear and audio taper, notice the “A” preceding the value on the pots on EBay. As far as precise values, I have seen them vary between manufacturers.


----------



## therremans (Feb 12, 2021)

*Brimar 6SN7GT*





I initially paired the English valve with the Tung-Sol 5998. I found that this driver does not benefit much from what the 5998 offers. It already has a great high end and could greatly benefit from an output tube that that can help thicken up the signal. In my trials, I really liked how the tube responded to the graphite plated 6080 or one like the Chatham 6AS7G. This valve is unique and can sound lovely if you work with it. By nature, it is clean and lean.. but has this *very *unique dry airy transparent high end. Like a really dry Chianti or listening in an aged dry wooden box.  The low end extension has no match for it's high end. That is why you buy this tube valve. But, I would only pay a reasonable price. I also wanted to add that these have a relatively lower output than other 6sn7s.




*Chatham 6080 (gp) + Brimar 6SN7GT*


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Really???? Are the SMD’s rated at 1 or 2% accuracy?


No earthly idea, sorry. They're all shipping from China, but here's one example.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> No earthly idea, sorry. They're all shipping from China, but here's one example.


I design and build with them so I might have an idea, one has to be careful of some Chinese products, they make a lot of fake ALPs pots you will find on Ebay. I do not know if they are printing Dale on resistors but I hope not lol.

Here are a couple uses of the larger pots. The second photo shows single gang pots in the front of the amp. I rarely use dual ganged for myself. 

Oftentimes you get what you pay for and there are a lot of folks who would might not know a difference.


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> *5692 - RCA, GE, CBS/Hytron*
> 
> I have found conflicting information if GE or RCA was the actual manufacturer of the famous red based tube. This could be because although RCA introduced the tube schematic in 1949, but may very well have contracted GE to build the tubes.
> 
> ...


I actually have a 5692 red base with both RCA and GE branding on it so whoever made them had both sets of stamps to sell under their brands but must have been made in one facility.


----------



## therremans (Feb 9, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> No earthly idea, sorry. They're all shipping from China, but here's one example.


You could try it and see if it fits. The ALPS at 23mm in depth is pretty maxed out on room as the 6SN7 socket is right behind the pot. That dale stepped looks to be 25mm. It may or may not be counterfeit resistors. But I honestly don’t care as the price reflects it. I would prefer if they didn’t copy a known name but it’s what they chose to do. If you’re on a budget, why not try these Chinese pots out. You get what you pay for is mostly true but doesn’t always apply, especially with audio gear. It would be ideal to make one out of real Dales and compare the two. I’ve heard it’s not that difficult to do, it’s just time consuming. I’ve heard great things on your DACT style Chinese stepped pot. I wish I could have tried it out but I ended up leaving my alps blue 10k in as mine was damaged in transit.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally... a stepped attenuator negate the need for the shunt mod, correct?



In addition to what @Paladin79 noted, in a word, no. You are not changing the total resistance if the values of the pot and stepped attenuator are the same.  That said, you _do _get one benefit from a stepped attenuator that the shunt mod is working to address in a different way.  Assuming the resistors are close in tolerance to each other in the stepped attenuator, you get good channel balance even at the very lowest (most counterclockwise) rotation of the knob where most regular potentiometers track very poorly (ie: one channel has significantly different resistance than the other).  So even on the first position of the stepped attenuator you should get good channel balance, where a setting that low on a regular pot would likely have an audible imbalance, if all that makes any sense.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> My eBay links aren’t helping any? Well, once you own one of everything worthwhile like @bcowen (and multiples) it’s pretty easy to stop searching for that new tube.



Of course your links help.

I bought a pair of Motorolas 6j5gt that you indicated, and say in passing they are excellent, and I also bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6j5g that you put the link to these days ago.

Thank you again for the indications.

Despite Bill's comment saying that the test numbers for Tung-sol 6j5g are not reliable, I decided to take a chance, given the rarity of the tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> In addition to what @Paladin79 noted, in a word, no. You are not changing the total resistance if the values of the pot and stepped attenuator are the same.  That said, you _do _get one benefit from a stepped attenuator that the shunt mod is working to address in a different way.  Assuming the resistors are close in tolerance to each other in the stepped attenuator, you get good channel balance even at the very lowest (most counterclockwise) rotation of the knob where most regular potentiometers track very poorly (ie: one channel has significantly different resistance than the other).  So even on the first position of the stepped attenuator you should get good channel balance, where a setting that low on a regular pot would likely have an audible imbalance, if all that makes any sense.


Super helpful, and makes sense, thanks! I assume the pinout on the DACT attenuator is the same as on the Alps... so left two sets of pins go to ground, right set of pins has input --> resistors + output?


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh, and when everything is put back together, I've got some shootouts to do. Gotta try out the Fotons, the CBS Brown Base, a pair of Visseaux 6J5MGs that should arrive today, and a lucky find, a metal-base Sylvania 6sn7 that's just a sniff below NOS measurements.

Wanted to ask, has anyone tried doing a 6sn7 --> 6cg7 adapter? Seems like the 6cg7 is a better match for an (adapter-ed) amp designed for a 6sn7 than a 12au7 would be, and they're reasonably cheap compared to 6sn7s.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Super helpful, and makes sense, thanks! I assume the pinout on the DACT attenuator is the same as on the Alps... so left two sets of pins go to ground, right set of pins has input --> resistors + output?



That I can't say. If a schematic or wiring diagram didn't come with the stepped attenuator, you're best to check the contacts with your meter to determine if they are the same as the pot.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and when everything is put back together, I've got some shootouts to do. Gotta try out the Fotons, the CBS Brown Base, a pair of Visseaux 6J5MGs that should arrive today, and a lucky find, a metal-base Sylvania 6sn7 that's just a sniff below NOS measurements.
> 
> Wanted to ask, has anyone tried doing a 6sn7 --> 6cg7 adapter? Seems like the 6cg7 is a better match for an (adapter-ed) amp designed for a 6sn7 than a 12au7 would be, and they're reasonably cheap compared to 6sn7s.



Yup, I've tried a few.  A 6CG7/6FQ7 is electrically identical to a 6SN7 just in a smaller bottle with a noval base.  I've preferred 6SN7's myself, but there's obviously a lot of 6CG7's I haven't tried.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Yup, I've tried a few.  A 6CG7/6FQ7 is electrically identical to a 6SN7 just in a smaller bottle with a noval base.  I've preferred 6SN7's myself, but there's obviously a lot of 6CG7's I haven't tried.


Nice! I guess the value of an adapter for these is if you can find them cheaper than their 6sn7 counterparts. That's quite a stack, incidentally.


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, these look super neat. Looking forward to hearing them.


----------



## Galapac (Feb 10, 2021)

therremans said:


> *5692 - RCA, GE, CBS/Hytron*
> 
> I have found conflicting information if GE or RCA was the actual manufacturer of the famous red based tube. This could be because although RCA introduced the tube schematic in 1949, but may very well have contracted GE to build the tubes.
> 
> ...


Pictures of that dual branded tube...it has a split personality.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> My eBay links aren’t helping any? Well, once you own one of everything worthwhile like @bcowen (and multiples) it’s pretty easy to stop searching for that new tube.


right ... closets full of tubes... oh yeah, just grab a few, you'll be ok, then in a blink of an eye you have them all over the place...😂


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> *5692 - RCA, GE, CBS/Hytron*
> 
> I have found conflicting information if GE or RCA was the actual manufacturer of the famous red based tube. This could be because although RCA introduced the tube schematic in 1949, but may very well have contracted GE to build the tubes.
> 
> ...


"Although it is agreed on that CBS/Hytron, Raytheon, Sylvania and Standard Electric out of Sweden, all manufactured the 5692 out of their own plants, which all carried brown bases. The 5692 has a plate voltage of 275V (max), where as the 6SN7 is 450V. I found the 5692 to work very well with the Darkvoice but when it comes to longevity of running the 5692 in a 6SN7 circuit, I cannot say. It is a tube rated for a long life of 10,000 hours".

I did a little research on this tube and found that the plate max is for the rated use of these tubes, which didn't take headphone amps into account. Most amps to my knowledge barely reach the 150v mark so in a sense all tubes used can be rated for long life on a headphone amp.


----------



## therremans (Feb 10, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> "Although it is agreed on that CBS/Hytron, Raytheon, Sylvania and Standard Electric out of Sweden, all manufactured the 5692 out of their own plants, which all carried brown bases. The 5692 has a plate voltage of 275V (max), where as the 6SN7 is 450V. I found the 5692 to work very well with the Darkvoice but when it comes to longevity of running the 5692 in a 6SN7 circuit, I cannot say. It is a tube rated for a long life of 10,000 hours".
> 
> I did a little research on this tube and found that the plate max is for the rated use of these tubes, which didn't take headphone amps into account. Most amps to my knowledge barely reach the 150v mark so in a sense all tubes used can be rated for long life on a headphone amp.


That’s good to know and I didn’t think of it from that perspective. I read that some speculated that in order for the 5692 to claim 10,000 hours of operation, they reduced the rated plate voltage and I could see that. I really like that GE red base. It pairs very well with the graphite 6080. Definitely one of those tubes that I could own solely and it’s versatile enough with all music.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> That’s good to know and I didn’t think of it from that perspective. I read that some speculated that in order for the 5692 to claim 10,000 hours of operation, they reduced the rated plate voltage and I could see that. I really like that GE red base. It pairs very well with the graphite 6080. Definitely one of those tubes that I could own solely and it’s versatile enough with all music.



I'm not sure where the 475v plate voltage comes from in that reference. Most spec sheets show a 300v max plate voltage. Although there is some variance in the specs between manufacturers, I doubt you'll see 175v in variance.  Below is a Tung-sol 6SN7GT max ratings:





And this is the "recommended" typical operating points.  I would imagine that most amps we're using today are running the plates between 90v and 150v, so the 5692 should be just fine in these circuits.


----------



## DeweyCH

I think I have to give up on replacing the switch. I cannot for the life of me get the two screws nearest the top of the amp out. Oh well... everything is laid out, time to solder stuff back into place:





And don't worry, I won't leave it with the 30k resistor touching the pins of the 1k+capacitor.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I think I have to give up on replacing the switch. I cannot for the life of me get the two screws nearest the top of the amp out. Oh well... everything is laid out, time to solder stuff back into place:
> 
> 
> 
> And don't worry, I won't leave it with the 30k resistor touching the pins of the 1k+capacitor.


Did you try a long skinny Phillips? Mine came right out with no trouble. But maybe mine weren’t stripped from the factory or something.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Did you try a long skinny Phillips? Mine came right out with no trouble. But maybe mine weren’t stripped from the factory or something.


As long and skinny a Phillips as I had. Maybe I'll try to borrow a longer and skinnier one. I kept trying things like an angled ratcheting screwdriver or those S-shaped screwdrivers. It's frustrating, I think the big problem is I can't get straight at them as they're partially covered by the lip of the metal top.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> As long and skinny a Phillips as I had. Maybe I'll try to borrow a longer and skinnier one. I kept trying things like an angled ratcheting screwdriver or those S-shaped screwdrivers. It's frustrating, I think the big problem is I can't get straight at them as they're partially covered by the lip of the metal top.


Here’s what I used.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> As long and skinny a Phillips as I had. Maybe I'll try to borrow a longer and skinnier one. I kept trying things like an angled ratcheting screwdriver or those S-shaped screwdrivers. It's frustrating, I think the big problem is I can't get straight at them as they're partially covered by the lip of the metal top.



I couldn't get mine out either, although I didn't spend a lot of time trying. I didn't need to remove the faceplate to do the volume pot, and I wasn't planning on changing the switch anyway so I just quit trying.  Whoever put the screws in mine either crossthreaded them or jackhammered them, one of the two.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> I couldn't get mine out either, although I didn't spend a lot of time trying. I didn't need to remove the faceplate to do the volume pot, and I wasn't planning on changing the switch anyway so I just quit trying.  Whoever put the screws in mine either crossthreaded them or jackhammered them, one of the two.


Pre-stripped as well. I want to change the switch but if I can’t, c’est la vie. I’ll give a longer screwdriver a shot. But I’m soldering this thing back together tonight come hell or high water, with or without a new switch.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Pre-stripped as well. I want to change the switch but if I can’t, c’est la vie. I’ll give a longer screwdriver a shot. But I’m soldering this thing back together tonight come hell or high water, with or without a new switch.



Time to bring out the cutting torch!!

Actually, it'd probably be a decent idea to replace those switches anyways. I haven't heard any first hand accounts regarding the DV, but if the build quality of its switches are anything like the ones in my P1, it may be just a matter of time before it literally comes apart in your fingers (both my amps had the switch fall apart within days of each other)

Hope I didn't get you guys too paranoid (or is it not paranoid enough)


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Time to bring out the cutting torch!!
> 
> Actually, it'd probably be a decent idea to replace those switches anyways. I haven't heard any first hand accounts regarding the DV, but if the build quality of its switches are anything like the ones in my P1, it may be just a matter of time before it literally comes apart in your fingers (both my amps had the switch fall apart within days of each other)
> 
> Hope I didn't get you guys too paranoid (or is it not paranoid enough)


I considered it for a hot second. Or a Dremel. But I couldn’t get to it without cutting through a bunch of other stuff.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I considered it for a hot second. Or a Dremel. But I couldn’t get to it without cutting through a bunch of other stuff.


I think I remember removing the capacitor brackets that are on the side, for the proper angle. The ones that clamp down on the two per side.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I think I remember removing the capacitor brackets that are on the side, for the proper angle. The ones that clamp down on the two per side.


Did you replace those capacitors?


----------



## Paladin79

It will still be a month or so before my Darkvoice arrives but I have glanced at a schematic and know the changes I will make. I will incorporate a circuit I designed for my own amps. I will need more room so the metal cabinet has to go but I may keep the top plate and sides. I am purposely avoiding changes others have made, I like to think for myself. Dual volume pots are a must for me and I already have my parts laid out.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It will still be a month or so before my Darkvoice arrives but I have glanced at a schematic and know the changes I will make. I will incorporate a circuit I designed for my own amps. I will need more room so the metal cabinet has to go but I may keep the top plate and sides. I am purposely avoiding changes others have made, I like to think for myself. Dual volume pots are a must for me and I already have my parts laid out.


looking forward to this build 😎


----------



## DeweyCH

DeweyCH said:


> Did you replace those capacitors?


This was a stupid question. Read back in the thread next time Dewey


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> looking forward to this build 😎


I already have some select maple laid out. Ambrosia, spalted, Birdseye, and tiger. I like choices. Many of the parts I will be using are not readily available so this will be one of a kind. Friends donated parts to me that  I should not let go to waste.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It will still be a month or so before my Darkvoice arrives but I have glanced at a schematic and know the changes I will make. I will incorporate a circuit I designed for my own amps. I will need more room so the metal cabinet has to go but I may keep the top plate and sides. I am purposely avoiding changes others have made, I like to think for myself. Dual volume pots are a must for me and I already have my parts laid out.


I really can’t wait to see this as it progresses


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 10, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I really can’t wait to see this as it progresses


I am not starting from scratch so it could be done in two weekends, I will show some of the assembly and finished product. As with my other work, the 6SN7 will come to life and I hope it is pleasing to the eye. Jedi knows about having two single gang pots, I will be using two stepped Alps pots that I believe were known as black widows but that is probably just a made up term lol. How the metal cabinet will come apart and fit in are my only concerns, I have thought through everything else so most of the amp will build itself. On a Bottlehead Crack I just needed to know the dimensions of the top plate and that was about it. I used the transformer and a couple solder lugs.
 This has those very same Alps stepped pots, I might be down to six or eight sets now but I only saw them for sale in bulk once.


----------



## Deceneu808

After 39 days of waiting they finally arrived

'60 and '62 I guess. Don't know how to read codes


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I considered it for a hot second. Or a Dremel. But I couldn’t get to it without cutting through a bunch of other stuff.



You might try heating those screws for 5 - 10 seconds with your soldering iron.  The danger of getting them too hot would be in causing a mark on the anodized finish of the front of the faceplate, but anodizing is pretty durable as long as you don't go overboard. May be just enough expansion/contraction between the steel screw and aluminum of the faceplate to allow them to pop loose.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> You might try heating those screws for 5 - 10 seconds with your soldering iron.  The danger of getting them too hot would be in causing a mark on the anodized finish of the front of the faceplate, but anodizing is pretty durable as long as you don't go overboard. May be just enough expansion/contraction between the steel screw and aluminum of the faceplate to allow them to pop loose.


I'll give that a shot. Is there any value to replacing those four big caps on the sides of the DV? The 220uF/315v ones?


----------



## Deceneu808

Oh yeah it's all coming together now with the 5998 in. Why don't they come stock with the DV lmao... Much power such amaze...


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> After 39 days of waiting they finally arrived
> 
> '60 and '62 I guess. Don't know how to read codes


I'd say a pair of 1956 there. congrats!


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> Oh yeah it's all coming together now with the 5998 in. Why don't they come stock with the DV lmao... Much power such amaze...


Really limited and expensive. I love my 5998. How are you enjoying that PSVane? I've never managed to find a seller who's selling just one at a reasonable price.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well, since the caps are out (and came out shockingly easy, I kinda expected them to be glued down), I went ahead and ordered a handful of Nichicon LGL2G221MELZ30 (220 uF, 400v, 22mm diameter and 30mm long so should fit perfectly). So much for hell or high water preventing me from finishing last night.


----------



## therremans (Feb 11, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I'll give that a shot. Is there any value to replacing those four big caps on the sides of the DV? The 220uF/315v ones?









I did buy all replacement parts, including the power caps. But due to the L0rd’s work.. I put the amp rebuild on a temp hold. Once I understand and locate his designated component upgrades, I’ll have some unused caps and components to sell off. Since they were intended for the original design. I pushed the length a little bit to 36mm, since they will still fit.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I did buy all replacement parts, including the power caps. But due to the L0rd’s work.. I put the amp rebuild on a temp hold. Once I understand and locate his designated component upgrades, I’ll have some unused caps and components to sell off. Since they were intended for the original design. I pushed the length a little bit to 36mm, since they will still fit.


The L0rd works in mysterious ways, after all. Until he shares his specs.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I really can’t wait to see this as it progresses


I would like to find a nice solution so any Darkvoice could be slid into a larger cabinet sans the bottom plate to allow for modification. I have used some capacitors that are nearly the size of a Coke can so more room is a must. I cannot imagine folks putting $1,000 worth of parts into a $200 amp but I might so my example will probably not be for others.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 11, 2021)

So one of the 5998 just died. Very low power, only left channel working distorting like hell and so on. Worked fine for one hour. Did some stuff around the house, came back and now it's doing this. Popped in the second one and it works fine. Any ideas what could of happened ?







...

Edit: Left it to cool a little bit and now it plays full volume, no distortion but the right channel is barely audible. 10x less than the left one.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> So one of the 5998 just died. Very low power, only left channel working distorting like hell and so on. Worked fine for one hour. Did some stuff around the house, came back and now it's doing this. Popped in the second one and it works fine. Any ideas what could of happened ?
> 
> ...
> 
> Edit: Left it to cool a little bit and now it plays full volume, no distortion but the right channel is barely audible. 10x less than the left one.


Reflow the solder in the pins.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 11, 2021)

therremans said:


> Reflow the solder in the pins.


I'm a complete amateur when it comes to diy stuff. What does reflowing the solder in pins mean ?

Nevermind, I googled it. I'll try this over the weekend. Just the tips of the pins right ?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I'm a complete amateur when it comes to diy stuff. What does reflowing the solder in pins mean ?


It can mean to touch a soldering iron to the pins until you see the solder flow again. I have worked with some tubes where the wire inside the pin is free of solder and the look can be obvious.

Personally if I do not trust the solder that has been inside the pins for 60 years or so, I remove that solder, reclean the inside of the pin and add new solder. This is not for everyone to try.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> I'm a complete amateur when it comes to diy stuff. What does reflowing the solder in pins mean ?


Take a soldering iron, preferably high temp with a wide tip. With the tube angled up, _lightly_ rest it on the pin and slowly move the soldering iron tip along on the pin for around 10-15 seconds or until you see the solder begin to let off gasses and turn back into a liquid state. Then let off and let it solidify. Don’t blow on it. It’s a pretty simple and easy process.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Take a soldering iron, preferably high temp with a wide tip. With the tube angled up, _lightly_ rest it on the pin and slowly move the soldering iron tip along on the pin for around 10-15 seconds or until you see the solder begin to let off gasses and turn back into a liquid state. Then let off and let it solidify. Don’t blow on it. It’s a pretty simple and easy process.


Yup I got it. The reflowing part got me confused. I'll pull out my tools on Saturday and let you know how it turns out


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Yup I got it. The reflowing part got me confused. I'll pull out my tools on Saturday and let you know how it turns out


You could practice it on another (cheaper) tube first.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Don’t blow on it.


ur not my supervisor


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> You could practice it on another (cheaper) tube first.


That would be the stock tube I suppose


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> I'd say a pair of 1956 there. congrats!


Nice, thank you ! I think I got a pretty decent deal on them.



DeweyCH said:


> Really limited and expensive. I love my 5998. How are you enjoying that PSVane? I've never managed to find a seller who's selling just one at a reasonable price.


After a few days of burn in it loosened up a bit. First impressions where very sharp, tight, fast like a solid state amp. Placebo or no I think it sounds better with every listen. Overall neutral tube with a little magic here and there. The normal UK-6SN7 version is more or less the same as this, the one with transparent glass. I have a local shop who sell Psvanes, new production Tung-Sols and some Electro-harmonix. Might as well stock up on what I can get my hands on easy...


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I would like to find a nice solution so any Darkvoice could be slid into a larger cabinet sans the bottom plate to allow for modification. I have used some capacitors that are nearly the size of a Coke can so more room is a must. I cannot imagine folks putting $1,000 worth of parts into a $200 amp but I might so my example will probably not be for others.


I mean if $1000 of parts, $200 of amp and some expertise and skill can churn out an amp that looks and sounds like $2000, why not?


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> That would be the stock tube I suppose


It is indeed a piece of crap. I put the stock tubes in every time I tinker with the internals and fire it up for the first time. Don't wanna explode any good tubes. Stock ones can die at any point and I won't be mad (other than mad that I have to open it back up and see what I f'ed up)


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> I mean if $1000 of parts, $200 of amp and some expertise and skill can churn out an amp that looks and sounds like $2000, why not?


A DeweyCH amp becomes a CHamp...


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> A DeweyCH amp becomes a CHamp...


Oh good lord no, not one I worked on. I'd estimate that if I put $1000 into my Darkvoice, the resulting amp would sound like something you got for fifty bucks off Amazon.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 11, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I mean if $1000 of parts, $200 of amp and some expertise and skill can churn out an amp that looks and sounds like $2000, why not?


Makes sense to me lol.

I just received a perforated plate Melz tube from 1954, @bcowen wanted to know how it sounded without actually buying one himself. I may have to describe this tube with  superlatives that will make Bill kick himself for not buying one himself.    I have solid plate versions from 53 and 55 so this one could be an aberration.


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Makes sense to me lol.
> 
> I just received a perforated plate Melz tube from 1954, @bcowen wanted to know how it sounded without actually buying one himself. I may have to describe this tube with  superlatives that will make Bill kick himself for not buying one himself.    I have solid plate versions from 53 and 55 so this one could be an aberration.



IIRC, that tube was like $20.  Way too rich for my blood.    

I have a couple Melz out for delivery today (after a full month since shipment).  These are not the usual suspects.  Will have to see what they do and then decide if I need to order more.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



ROFL!!!

When my wife gets out of hand....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> IIRC, that tube was like $20.  Way too rich for my blood.
> 
> I have a couple Melz out for delivery today (after a full month since shipment).  These are not the usual suspects.  Will have to see what they do and then decide if I need to order more.  LOL!


If they are what I think they are, try them in the Darkvoice first.


----------



## JazzVinyl

DeweyCH said:


> Dumb but important question... how does one discharge his power caps? I typically just leave things unplugged for 24-48 hours and assume the caps will discharge naturally.



One Way:


----------



## DeweyCH

I got one of the two remaining screws out of the faceplate. Long Philips bit for my ratcheting screwdriver + removing the caps on either side of the tubes made it work.
Other screw is stripped as all get-out and I can't finagle anything bigger than a screwdriver bit under the switch, so... I put Gorilla Glue on the tip of the Philips bit and stuck it into the screw. We'll see if it turns in a bit when that sets.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I would like to find a nice solution so any Darkvoice could be slid into a larger cabinet sans the bottom plate to allow for modification. I have used some capacitors that are nearly the size of a Coke can so more room is a must. I cannot imagine folks putting $1,000 worth of parts into a $200 amp but I might so my example will probably not be for others.


I'll test run that for ya if you need some help with that. : )


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Oh good lord no, not one I worked on. I'd estimate that if I put $1000 into my Darkvoice, the resulting amp would sound like something you got for fifty bucks off Amazon.


Only if you use GE tubes!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!
> 
> When my wife gets out of hand....





therremans said:


>


Wait until the missus finds out about high transconductance valves!....


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 11, 2021)

Can anyone tell me how many screws hold the top plate on? As long as I'm continuing this rabbit hole I'd kinda like to get the output caps, but it appears to be attached by more than the four screws. I thought maybe removing the top plate, but there's also apparently more than the five screws (two at the front, three at the back) holding IT in place.

Or if I don't need to remove the top plate, how the everloving heck do I get the PCB with the six output caps on it out?!?






Weirdly, the harder and more frustrating this becomes the more I want to go even further. Thus the caps. I was totally just going to replace the resistors around the 6sn7 socket and the switch. But noooooo. Couldn't get the switch off, so I replaced the sockets. Still couldn't get the switch off, so I removed the pot. Broke a pin on the pot, so I made a new PCB with my attenuator. Still can't get the switch off (although I've now broken it and it's not in my way getting to that *&@#(*&$# screw) and, F it, I'll replace a ton of caps.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If they are what I think they are, try them in the Darkvoice first.



Here...I fixed this for me:



bcowen said:


> I have a couple Melz out for delivery today (after a full month since shipment).  These are not the usual suspects.  Will have to see what they do *to the amp* and then decide if I need to order more.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Wait until the missus finds out about high transconductance valves!....



ROFL!   Where's @Ripper2860 when you need him?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here...I fixed this for me:


This is going to be bad, I just know it but when people ask you about tubes I will have an example of why they should run away quickly.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I got one of the two remaining screws out of the faceplate. Long Philips bit for my ratcheting screwdriver + removing the caps on either side of the tubes made it work.
> Other screw is stripped as all get-out and I can't finagle anything bigger than a screwdriver bit under the switch, so... I put Gorilla Glue on the tip of the Philips bit and stuck it into the screw. We'll see if it turns in a bit when that sets.



Uh-oh.  Now you're going to have to join the lawsuit with the girl that sprayed Gorilla glue in her hair.  It won't come out, and now she's suing because there was nothing on the can that specifically told her not to spray it in her hair. Guess we should all be glad she didn't spray it up her butt.  Or not.   You'll have to sue because there's no specific warning about Gorilla-gluing screws, and when the screw comes out but then can't be separated from your favorite screwdriver the emotional pain inflicted will likely leave deep emotional scars for the rest of your life. We're here for you though, bro'...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is going to be bad, I just know it but when people ask you about tubes I will have an example of why they should run away quickly.



LOL!  All my tube recommendations carry an implied disclosure:  if something goes wrong, it's @JKDJedi 's fault.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 11, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Wait until the missus finds out about high transconductance valves!....





bcowen said:


> ROFL!   Where's @Ripper2860 when you need him?



Sorry.  What did I miss?  I was shopping online at Dress Barn.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Uh-oh.  Now you're going to have to join the lawsuit with the girl that sprayed Gorilla glue in her hair.  It won't come out, and now she's suing because there was nothing on the can that specifically told her not to spray it in her hair. Guess we should all be glad she didn't spray it up her butt.  Or not.   You'll have to sue because there's no specific warning about Gorilla-gluing screws, and when the screw comes out but then can't be separated from your favorite screwdriver the emotional pain inflicted will likely leave deep emotional scars for the rest of your life. We're here for you though, bro'...


Now wait, there are problems getting the screws loose? Anyone want to bet me I won't have the whole thing disassembled in a half hour? I would do a video of course. I must have a screwdriver somewhere.


----------



## therremans (Feb 11, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Can anyone tell me how many screws hold the top plate on? As long as I'm continuing this rabbit hole I'd kinda like to get the output caps, but it appears to be attached by more than the four screws. I thought maybe removing the top plate, but there's also apparently more than the five screws (two at the front, three at the back) holding IT in place.
> 
> Or if I don't need to remove the top plate, how the everloving heck do I get the PCB with the six output caps on it out?!?
> 
> ...


Yeah, you’ll need to remove the front plate to have access to the threads and nut securing each the power switch and output jack.

There are four Phillips screws holding the output PCB board down. You’ll want to desolder everything and then unscrew them. The board will lift right out. This also exposes the remaining screws holding the top plate on.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Yeah, you’ll need to remove the front plate to have access to the threads and nut securing each the power switch and input jacks.
> 
> There are four Phillips screws holding the output PCB board down. You’ll want to desolder everything and then unscrew them. The board will lift right out. This also exposes the remaining screws holding the top plate on.


I've got the screws out of it. I'm figuring some of the soldered spots on the top that don't have something coming into them that I can see are attached to something underneath. I'll desolder them tonight. Thanks!


----------



## therremans (Feb 11, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I've got the screws out of it. I'm figuring some of the soldered spots on the top that don't have something coming into them that I can see are attached to something underneath. I'll desolder them tonight. Thanks!


Yes, review at my post on the topic. I highlight all of the solder points. You may have left the 4x transformer leads soldered.


----------



## Galapac

I was having a real bad day until I started reading the replies on here...you crazy bunch made my day...thx 🤪


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 11, 2021)

therremans said:


> *Output cap replacement*
> 
> Remove the output PCB board. Start by de-soldering the green points shown, then unscrew the four screws in each corner. I used these caps - Vishay MKP1839 (10uf) x 8, Vishay MKP1839 (.1uf) x 8
> 
> ...


Just quoting this so I can find it easier. Also totally gonna remove those two little caps since I also got rid of the pre outs


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Uh-oh.  Now you're going to have to join the lawsuit with the girl that sprayed Gorilla glue in her hair.  It won't come out, and now she's suing because there was nothing on the can that specifically told her not to spray it in her hair. Guess we should all be glad she didn't spray it up her butt.  Or not.   You'll have to sue because there's no specific warning about Gorilla-gluing screws, and when the screw comes out but then can't be separated from your favorite screwdriver the emotional pain inflicted will likely leave deep emotional scars for the rest of your life. We're here for you though, bro'...


To @DeweyCH: I guess that your screwdriver is screwed 😖


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> To @DeweyCH: I guess that your screwdriver is screwed 😖


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> Dumb but important question... how does one discharge his power caps? I typically just leave things unplugged for 24-48 hours and assume the caps will discharge naturally.



You can solder a high value bleeder resistor across the +/- leads of the first cap of the power supply, 220K to 1Meg, higher value will discharge more slowly, a lower value will load down the supply a bit more but not enough to drop the output voltage significantly.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  All my tube recommendations carry an implied disclosure:  if something goes wrong, it's @JKDJedi 's fault.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Now wait, there are problems getting the screws loose? Anyone want to bet me I won't have the whole thing disassembled in a half hour? I would do a video of course. I must have a screwdriver somewhere.


I'm sure you'll have it apart in minutes. I also suspect you're at the level where you can just glare at it hard enough that it disassembles itself.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I'm sure you'll have it apart in minutes. I also suspect you're at the level where you can just glare at it hard enough that it disassembles itself.


LOL I have a few tools and some experience. I have right angle mini ratchets for tight spaces,


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 12, 2021)

I finished fixing the heater situation in the DarkVoice this morning.

As I mentioned before, the heaters in the DarkVoice are not center-tapped, either at the transformer or virtually, which I suspected was a large contributor to the 60Hz noise issues numerous people are having with the amplifier.

Instead, what the designer did was ground one leg of the heaters at the 6SN7 socket here (it has been removed, but a connection was made between the 6SN7 heater and the front panel LED PCB ground connection).



So that connection was removed and a virtual center tap was made using two 100ohm resistors at the point where the heater windings hit the center PCB.  The original wiring was removed and replaced with a twisted pair.  I also mentioned that the tube heaters were being run over voltage, at around 7.15VAC.  Just so happens I had the perfect voltage dropping resistors for the job on hand, two 130mOhm 5W wirewounds.  One goes on each leg of the heaters since they are now balanced.



Now getting ~ 6.3VAC on the across the heaters (note that since the heaters are now balanced, each heater-to-ground voltage measurement will be 3.15VAC, the voltage from one heater to the other will be ~6.3VAC).  Worth noting that the front panel LED is powered from the heater winding, the value of the resistor in series will need to be adjusted since the voltage has been halved, otherwise it won't light up.



So did balancing the heaters make a difference?  Well, I have two 6SN7s on hand that were completely unusable in the DarkVoice due to heater-to-cathode leakage, the 60Hz noise was completely out of control.  One was this black-plate Fivre 6SN7GT.  I have had no problems with this tube in any other amplifier.



In terms of the hum level, the difference is massive, but there is still a low-level hum audible without music playing, took it from a 9 down to a 2.  I suspect this is due to primary-to-secondary leakage in the mains transformer, which is not going to be fixed without completely replacing it, at which point you might as well just build a new amplifier.  Regardless, I would still recommend this modification, center tap and balance the heaters and break the ground connection from the 6SN7 heater to the power LED ground.  The hum could likely be further reduced by using a 500ohm trimpot with the wiper connected to ground instead of the two 100ohm resistors.  The pot can then be adjusted to minimize the audible hum, it's called a humdinger.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> You could practice it on another (cheaper) tube first.


Went straight for the Tung-Sols. The second one started to pull the same trick on me. Took me around 10 minutes to do them both. They both work excellent now. Thank you !


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> I finished fixing the heater situation in the DarkVoice this morning.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the heaters in the DarkVoice are not center-tapped, either at the transformer or virtually, which I suspected was a large contributor to the 60Hz noise issues numerous people are having with the amplifier.
> 
> ...


Oh good something else for me to do! (I am totally doing this BTW - thanks for sharing!)


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> I finished fixing the heater situation in the DarkVoice this morning.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the heaters in the DarkVoice are not center-tapped, either at the transformer or virtually, which I suspected was a large contributor to the 60Hz noise issues numerous people are having with the amplifier.
> 
> ...


The mods look great. Would it be possible that the potentiometer upgrade (probably an ALPS), will fix the remaining hum? It did great things to the noise floor. I look forward to trying these mods out myself when you’re finished. Thank you.


----------



## DeweyCH

I notice a lack of Fitz mod. I suppose because (I think I've read) you consider the two caps to be detrimental to sound outside of the hum, and this is a solution that doesn't have negative side effects?


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> I finished fixing the heater situation in the DarkVoice this morning.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the heaters in the DarkVoice are not center-tapped, either at the transformer or virtually, which I suspected was a large contributor to the 60Hz noise issues numerous people are having with the amplifier.
> 
> ...


I already have other transformers picked out and ordered, I was not kidding when I said mine may have few original parts. Maybe the name plate if I can work that in.


----------



## jonathan c

To pursue the thoughts engendered by o@therremans, if tubophilia is bad enough, what about the excitement of a shipment (from Langrex) of several dozen 9-pin protectors? Utmost care for those 7308s, 7316s, 7730s, and so much more...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> The mods look great. Would it be possible that the potentiometer upgrade (probably an ALPS), will fix the remaining hum? It did great things to the noise floor. I look forward to trying these mods out myself when you’re finished. Thank you.



Changing the pot is unlikely the affect the hum, unless some weirdness is going on where the stock pot is prone to noise pickup.  Not surprising the noise floor dropped though, I'm sure the original pot is quite noisy, but again, not likely to affect the 60Hz noise.



DeweyCH said:


> I notice a lack of Fitz mod. I suppose because (I think I've read) you consider the two caps to be detrimental to sound outside of the hum, and this is a solution that doesn't have negative side effects?



Correct.  Of course it is going to depend on what is more important to you if the hum cannot be completely eliminated by center tapping the heaters (like I said, a humdinger gives you the best chance to minimize it).  IMO, bypassing the cathode resistors is a situation where the cure is worse than the disease, I would probably leave them unbypassed and only use tubes with low heater-to-cathode leakage, I place a high priority on not putting electrolytics in the signal path as they negatively affect the sound.  Center-tapping the heaters and using twisted heater leads gives you the best chance of lowering the audible hum without resorting to a bypass cap.

Get a 500ohm trimpot, connect the two terminals to the heater winding pads on the PCB, connect the wiper to ground.  Place the pot at its midpoint, put in a tube that is prone to the hum issue and listen with headphones and no music playing, adjust the pot until the hum is minimized.  If it is still too much, you can always add the bypass caps back on.

I'll get a 500ohm trimpot and see if it can be further reduced over a pair of 100ohm resistors.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Replacing the caps on the PCB without removing it is proving more annoying than anticipated, looks like I'll have to take it out to get the job done, which means I am done for today


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 12, 2021)

I know this is somewhat underwhelming vs. the Magnum Opus on display above but I'm kinda proud of how I (after several failed attempts) set up this attenuator to actually be able to have things soldered to:













It's clean, it's low-profile, and it's got actual pins to solder resistors and wires to. I also took a couple of pins I clipped off of something else to connect the 2 ground pins on each channel for the shunt mod. Last time I ran long, ugly-ass lines of solder between them and it was less than good

EDIT: I know the first picture looks like I scorched the hell out of it. It's just the lighting. Doesn't look at all abnormal in person.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I know this is somewhat underwhelming vs. the Magnum Opus on display above but I'm kinda proud of how I (after several failed attempts) set up this attenuator to actually be able to have things soldered to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks better, but shouldn’t this pot not be shunted?


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 12, 2021)

therremans said:


> Looks better, but shouldn’t this pot not be shunted?


That's what I thought but per @Paladin79 and @bcowen it still has benefit.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> That's what I thought but per @Paladin79 and @bcowen it still has the same benefit.


We were replying to a question about a standard 100k pot compared to one with stepped resistors and basically said it was still 100k. Use of shunt resistors is another topic and one I cannot get into at this time.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> That's what I thought but per @Paladin79 and @bcowen it still has benefit.



Not per me.  Perhaps I didn't describe things well enough.  I'm using an un-shunted 50k Alps pot in mine and it works just fine.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not per me.  Perhaps I didn't describe things well enough.  I'm using an un-shunted 50k Alps pot in mine and it works just fine.


I need to look back through some of my college text books but I seem to recall a shunt gives a fixed resistance to ground from the wiper of the pot. There are other reasons for shunt resistors of course but as I said the other day, I did glance at a decent schematic of the 336.   I just got notice my Darkvoice shipped, I will just do my build, compare it to an Incubus and get back with you guys.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to look back through some of my college text books but I seem to recall a shunt gives a fixed resistance to ground from the wiper of the pot. There are other reasons for shunt resistors of course but as I said the other day, I did glance at a decent schematic of the 336.   I just got notice my Darkvoice shipped, I will just do my build, compare it to an Incubus and get back with you guys.



You should probably send it to me when you're done, you know, just for verification and stuff.  After all, I'm the only one with a cardboard Incubus.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ah, ok. My bad, I misunderstood. I'll not shunt it then.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should probably send it to me when you're done, you know, just for verification and stuff.  After all, I'm the only one with a cardboard Incubus.


Count your blessings a shoe box would not support the weight.  Can I not just say it sounds like an Incubus with GE tubes in it? There's a mental picture for you.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 12, 2021)

Okay, so I lied about being done for the day, I put the new caps in, two TDK 33uF 250V polypropylene film caps.  I did have to remove the PCB, and it was STILL a huge PITA.  There is absolutely no slack from the transformer leads to the PCB, so getting them resoldered underneath without taking the whole thing apart was a true joy.


 

These are really pushing the limits in terms of what can be squeezed in here capacitance-wize.  I had hoped to put in three per channel, but it just wasn't happening.  So that gets you from 30uF stock to 66uF.  -3dB point with 300ohm headphones stock was 17Hz.  This will get you a -3dB point of 20Hz with 120ohm headphones, so drastically increases headphone flexibility.  Really using anything below 120ohm is questionable anyway since the damping factor might make the bass pretty flubby.

It sounds great, I really like it.  Only a couple more things to do, mainly the new pot and power switch, but a couple things to experiment with as well (humdinger, higher-quality film cap on gyrator load).  Probably another week or two.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Can I not just say it sounds like an Incubus with GE tubes in it? There's a mental picture for you.



Yes, you can say that.  LOL!  But I have every confidence you wouldn't be wasting your time working on something that would end up as a poster child for sonic dreck-ness.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes, you can say that.  LOL!  But I have every confidence you wouldn't be wasting your time working on something that would end up as a poster child for sonic dreck-ness.


Ok maybe not GE’s. If the end result is not worthy of Utopias and headphones ranging from 50 to 600 ohms I will trash it. It will also have to do justice to the tubes my local group has assembled. It will also have to measure well and sound exceptional. I started with the Incubus in the hands of engineers and so shall this be. If they like it then you shall hear it, maybe.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Hmmm I like my GE tubes just fine


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hmmm I like my GE tubes just fine



Yours were made before GE replaced all their engineers with accountants.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 13, 2021)

Getting back to tube rolling, this price is a little high but if you can find this style Melz for $20 or so it is an exceptional value IMHO.
Bass and mids are especially good. It does not reach higher frequencies as well as other Melz but then it is not a $100 up tube. @bcowen pointed out this variation to me and mine is a 1954. I cannot make out the date on the one shown but I suspect it is from that same period. They may have been experimenting with the perforated plate since I have years before and after with the solid plate. In 58 they used the perforated plate with metal upper supports and rectangular lower mica with a small step, as well as a few solid plates I have been able to find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-6N8S-...037485?hash=item5dbca745ad:g:CqEAAOSwYV5f8bMq

A glance at the bottoms of the pins might let you know why I replace the solder in the pins of the older Melz.

My Darkvoice should be here next Tuesday, barring snow conditions affecting delivery. Most likely I will tear it down build the cabinet and then start through my changes. 

There are plenty of upgrade suggestions out there dating back to 2018 and 2019 and possibly prior. I like to give credit where credit is due so I will act independently of previous thoughts on upgrades. I even saw talk in the Bottlehead forums about the Darkvoice some time back lol. 

https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11620.0


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, so I lied about being done for the day, I put the new caps in, two TDK 33uF 250V polypropylene film caps.  I did have to remove the PCB, and it was STILL a huge PITA.  There is absolutely no slack from the transformer leads to the PCB, so getting them resoldered underneath without taking the whole thing apart was a true joy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking clean as usual. Haha, much cleaner than my pyramid stack of axial vishay caps. Plus you were able to have 66uf per channel whereas mine are 40uf per channel. My go to headphones are 250ohm. The vishay’s I have do sound nice but I’d be curious to hear the difference to the TDK 33uF 250V polypropylene films. You’re almost there.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looking clean as usual. Haha, much cleaner than my pyramid stack of axial vishay caps. Plus you were able to have 66uf per channel whereas mine are 40uf per channel. My go to headphones are 250ohm. The vishay’s I have do sound nice but I’d be curious to hear the difference to the TDK 33uF 250V polypropylene films. You’re almost there.



I think I'm going to start between you two with the 47uf Mundorfs (since I already have them).  I'm pretty sure they will fit with only moderate assistance from a hammer.  

@L0rdGwyn , are you planning on any bypasses for the TDK's (a pair of ~0.33 uf's or a single ~0.66 per side)?  Looks like there might be room to the insides.  Or would those be sonically irrelevant given the main cap sizes?


----------



## DeweyCH

I’m honestly surprised you can put higher-capacitance caps in. When you designed a circuit around this upgrade what correlating changes are needed? Different resistor values throughout?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Looking clean as usual. Haha, much cleaner than my pyramid stack of axial vishay caps. Plus you were able to have 66uf per channel whereas mine are 40uf per channel. My go to headphones are 250ohm. The vishay’s I have do sound nice but I’d be curious to hear the difference to the TDK 33uF 250V polypropylene films. You’re almost there.



Thanks!  I like a clean build  for me the fun of the modifications is seeing what can be done within the size constraints of the original chassis, these were the best capacitance/size ratio caps I could find, not super cheap but thankfully they sound quite good!



bcowen said:


> I think I'm going to start between you two with the 47uf Mundorfs (since I already have them).  I'm pretty sure they will fit with only moderate assistance from a hammer.
> 
> @L0rdGwyn , are you planning on any bypasses for the TDK's (a pair of ~0.33 uf's or a single ~0.66 per side)?  Looks like there might be room to the insides.  Or would those be sonically irrelevant given the main cap sizes?



I wasn't planning to bypass them, but certainly something that could be experimented with by @Galapac , but I will leave that up to him.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> I’m honestly surprised you can put higher-capacitance caps in. When you designed a circuit around this upgrade what correlating changes are needed? Different resistor values throughout?



When you alter the output capacitance of a cathode follower OTL like this one, the high-pass filter formed by the output capacitance and the impedance of the load will determine the low frequency cutoff point.  The frequency at which the response will hit -3dB can be calculated by the formula:

f-3dB = 1/(2*pi*R*C)

Where R is the impedance of the headphone in ohms, C is the output capacitance if farads.  Really nothing else that needs to be done when increasing the capacitance, all other resistor changes that were made for the circuit were done to alter the bias points of the tubes.  Using a regulated supply allowed me to increase the B+ by 30-40V with a drastically higher PSRR (power supply rejection ratio, i.e., how much of the power supply noise makes it to the output), while also removing power supply electrolytics from the signal path.  I adjusted the bias of the 6SN7 to a more linear point aided by an active load, adjusted the bias of the 6080 to account for the new 6SN7 bias point (since they are direct-coupled) to keep the bias current similar to the original design, although the tubes could be pushed harder.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is it normal to spend $ 180 on the amplifier and $ 950 on tubes?

I wonder if I should have bought a better amplifier instead of spending so much on tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 13, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> Is it normal to spend $ 180 on the amplifier and $ 950 on tubes?
> 
> I wonder if I should have bought a better amplifier instead of spending so much on tubes.


You can use the tubes in another amp and you have not paid much for the Darkvoice. If left as it is you will appreciate other amps so much more.😺 

Oh and tubes are a good investment, they are gaining value all the time.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Is it normal to spend $ 180 on the amplifier and $ 950 on tubes?
> 
> I wonder if I should have bought a better amplifier instead of spending so much on tubes.



This is audio.  "Normal" has no known correlation.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is audio.  "Normal" has no known correlation.


@bcowen have you run out of room yet in the Darkvoice case? I may have some extra tiger maple laying around and by next weekend I should have a pretty good idea how to extend the case even if you want to keep the current front panel. (I may end up scrapping mine.)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen have you run out of room yet in the Darkvoice case? I may have some extra tiger maple laying around and by next weekend I should have a pretty good idea how to extend the case even if you want to keep the current front panel. (I may end up scrapping mine.)



Well, if I just put the two 47uf Mundorfs in there (one per channel) along with a pair of 0.47uf bypasses, I think they'll fit.  What would be cooler though is to put 4 of them in there and get 94uf per channel.  But certainly not enough room to do that in the existing chassis unless I ditch the bottom cover and add some stilts.  IIRC, I *do* like Tiger maple.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 13, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Well, if I just put the two 47uf Mundorfs in there (one per channel) along with a pair of 0.47uf bypasses, I think they'll fit.  What would be cooler though is to put 4 of them in there and get 94uf per channel.  But certainly not enough room to do that in the existing chassis unless I ditch the bottom cover and add some stilts.  IIRC, I *do* like Tiger maple.  LOL!


Lol sure what ever you want to do in yours, 30 ufd, 94ufd practically the same thing. I just ask that you turn the Incubus to the wall so it won’t be traumatized by the stilts.🙀

Oh and I have a few hundred MKP capacitors in case you want to solder and handful of them in your amp too Bill.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wait!  His Incubus has eyes!?  😒


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Wait!  His Incubus has eyes!?  😒


Eyes and a soul. I had to put something extra in there since he only got a double wall cardboard cabinet.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 13, 2021)

Bless its soul.  I don't even want to know what that poor amp has seen Bill do with  tubes. 😟


Hey.  WTH am I doing here?  I don't even own a DV amp.  🤔


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Bless its soul.  I don't even want to know what that poor amp has seen Bill do with  tubes. 😟
> 
> 
> Hey.  WTH am I doing here?  I don't even own a DV amp.  🤔


Me either lol, but I have one arriving soon. I repaired one once but I did not spend much time with it. I am going to mod one and see how close I can get the sound to an Incubus then probably give it away, I am running out of room. I have a couple other Chinese amps I may include lol, a package deal.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I was about to order some parts from Mouser for various projects, including a trimmer to make a humdinger for the DarkVoice heater supply, then thought I should clip in some parts and elevate the heaters before I even bother.

So I did that, elevated the heaters ~55VDC above ground by connecting the virtual center tap to a 220K+100K voltage divider from the B+ supply.  The smoothing cap isn't necessary with the regulated supply but I threw it on there for good measure on the first go-around.




Hum is now completely gone, goodbye!  Tested on various tubes that were previously noisy.  So this is the way, virtual center tap + elevated supply, no point in bothering with the humdinger, DarkVoice is now humphrey.


----------



## therremans

Sylvania 7A4, smooth gray plates. Found some vintage adapters that allow me to use my 6J5 > 6SN7 adapter with the 7A4s.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 13, 2021)

therremans said:


> Sylvania 7A4, smooth gray plates. Found some vintage adapters that allow me to use my 6J5 > 6SN7 adapter with the 7A4s.


Nice, I have quite a few 7A4’s, and they can usually be had at reasonable prices. I generally shop for the military version VT-192 or the Industrial version.

I got into those after I found them in one of my old tube manuals, I had already used other loktals and 6j5's of course.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> I was about to order some parts from Mouser for various projects, including a trimmer to make a humdinger for the DarkVoice heater supply, then thought I should clip in some parts and elevate the heaters before I even bother.
> 
> So I did that, elevated the heaters ~55VDC above ground by connecting the virtual center tap to a 220K+100K voltage divider from the B+ supply.  The smoothing cap isn't necessary with the regulated supply but I threw it on there for good measure on the first go-around.
> 
> ...


Nice work. I can’t fully understand what you’re saying here, but I’m pretty sure I can can copy you effectively (and give all credit where it’s due). @bcowen and I will be buying your book.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nice work. I can’t fully understand what you’re saying here, but I’m pretty sure I can can copy you effectively (and give all credit where it’s due). @bcowen and I will be buying your book.



I'm not even going to pretend to understand it, although it looks like original projections on the Tiger maple quantity may be understated.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm not even going to pretend to understand it, although it looks like original projections on the Tiger maple quantity may be understated.


Have you guys not had any basic electronics at some point in your past? Lol Look on the internet and copy and paste if need be.😺 It may not even be plagerism.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Nice work. I can’t fully understand what you’re saying here, but I’m pretty sure I can can copy you effectively (and give all credit where it’s due). @bcowen and I will be buying your book.



It's a simple modification, happy to explain how it would be accomplished in the stock DarkVoice.


----------



## DeweyCH

A couple of worthy additions:






Really wish I could hear 'em.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> It's a simple modification, happy to explain how it would be accomplished in the stock DarkVoice.


When the amp is all completed and ready to go back. It would be great if you can post a guide showing the list of mods done and briefly explain the install processes, including links to purchase the components. I know this takes time but the community would be extremely thankful and word will get around. I’ve never seen this amp modded this properly or to this extent on any other blogs or forums and it’s been around for well over a decade. I may even do all of your mods on a brand new Darkvoice and compare it to mine.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Have you guys not had any basic electronics at some point in your past? Lol Look on the internet and copy and paste if need be.😺 It may not even be plagerism.



I learned that if you stick your tongue on both terminals of a new 9-volt battery, it hurts.  Does that count?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I learned that if you stick your tongue on both terminals of a new 9-volt battery, it hurts.  Does that count?


But are you grounded with a finger in a wall socket?


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> When the amp is all completed and ready to go back. It would be great if you can post a guide showing the list of mods done and briefly explain the install processes, including links to purchase the components. I know this takes time but the community would be extremely thankful and word will get around. I’ve never seen this amp modded this properly or to this extent on any other blogs or forums and it’s been around for well over a decade. I may even do all of your mods on a brand new Darkvoice and compare it to mine.


I can’t wait to hear what the L0rd hath wrought upon my my DV and am honored to be the first of his modded DVs and what will may become known as the popular LGmodded DV or some similar name. @L0rdGwyn you may want to sign the inside bottom cover and date it with a metallic pen. It’s a keeper!


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 13, 2021)

therremans said:


> When the amp is all completed and ready to go back. It would be great if you can post a guide showing the list of mods done and briefly explain the install processes, including links to purchase the components. I know this takes time but the community would be extremely thankful and word will get around. I’ve never seen this amp modded this properly or to this extent on any other blogs or forums and it’s been around for well over a decade. I may even do all of your mods on a brand new Darkvoice and compare it to mine.



Without a doubt I can make guides on center-tapping the heaters and elevating the heater supply to remove the hum issues, even if the rest of the power supply remains stock, it is worth doing and a simple fix.

The big changes to the circuit, the gyrator loads and power supply regulator, are more tricky.  I am happy to provide parts lists as well as my gerber files / PCBs for the gyrator loads, that wouldn't be an issue.  The major question in my mind is in regards to the power supply regulator.  I cannot distribute the regulator used in @Galapac 's DarkVoice as it is not my IP and wouldn't be fair to the designer.  There is a regulator available commercially from Neurochrome that has very similar functionality, albeit in a slightly larger footprint.  I have one on the way, I plan to see if it will fit in the available space and come up with a way to mount it.

If everything checks out, I will then see if I can find a way to effectively instruct others to set up the regulator.  The output voltage should be adjusted to minimize the voltage drop across the power MOSFET in the regulator while obeying the dropout voltage.  Long story short, this is done ideally with an oscilloscope.  I have to admit that I am a little concerned that implementing the regulator, as well as all of the other mods, might lead to problems / frustration if mistakes are made and need to be troubleshot.

So that is the big outstanding question as far as doing everything I've done in this DarkVoice as a DIY project: does the Neurochrome regulator fit inside the DarkVoice, and if so, can I come up with a way to easily set up the HV regulator such that opportunities for mistakes are minimized?  I can't promise that, but I am going to look into it.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> But are you grounded with a finger in a wall socket?



I'm not very well grounded regardless of where my finger is.


----------



## Paladin79

If someone could give me the dimensions of the top plate and front plate I can do some preliminary work on a cabinet build. It looks like @bcowen will use his front plate so it is easy enough to do a drop in design for his. In the event I give mine away I could do something similar. If I were to keep it I would use dual volume pots and these little guys would not fit the normal front plate.   They are 1.5 inches square and .75 inches deep. If I keep it I would have to do copper plate along the lines of something I made for a buddy in Maryland. Such a plate would accommodate the Alps pots as well as VU meters. The electronics is the easy part, the cabinet build is the fun part for me at least.











.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I made the elevated heater change permanent.  I paralleled a second 2K resistor on the power LED PCB to account for the balanced heater supply.  The power LED ground has to be disconnected from the ground bus and brought to the heater center tap so the LED does not see the 50VDC offset of the heater supply.  The LED now lights up again.



Very happy the hum is gone with my black plate Fivre 6SN7GT, nice and quiet.  All that is left to do is swap the pot and the power switch and consider A-Bing a higher quality film cap on the gyrator.


----------



## Ripper2860

At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?



At the same point the technicality becomes important.


----------



## Galapac

Ripper2860 said:


> At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?


When @L0rdGwyn transforms it into a SDV+


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Ripper2860 said:


> At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?



In truth, it really isn't a DarkVoice anymore, I just crammed what I could into the chassis and kept the transformer  but it's fun to make it sort of a stealth sleeper amp, can play A-B DarkVoice tricks on your friends.

I'll probably build an improved version of this circuit into my own chassis without the space limitations.  Probably single triode input tubes, a higher-quality mains transformer with an appropriate snubber circuit, HEXFRED rectifier diodes (or maybe even a tube rectifier, for looks only), a choke or FET current sink load on the output tube with a higher bias current for lower output impedance, larger fancier output caps...

I am considering changing the input tubes on my 45 amplifier to something with a little more gain, meaning I will need something to do with my 6J5/6C5s, this would be a good use for them and an easy project compared to the other stuff I have coming down the pipeline.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 14, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?


For me it will be after I open the box but that is just me lol. I will be incorporating a couple of my own designs that I need to protect but I will let friends give comments on the amp before I donate it. If I give it to my son I may try to match some of his work, like his bar top. I have plenty of cherry and need to use some of it up.
In no way am I trying to discredit the original design, but a few of you guys understand the type of sound I seek.  
I still work daily with engineers and audio engineers so on weekends I want to think about something else. There are plenty of tips around on changing the Darkvoice and keeping that cabinet size so most of you should be looking at those anyway. This will be the only one I touch, it is easier IMHO to build from scratch than it is to tear something down and rebuild it. I can make money on the former but oftentimes not the latter and my hobby pays for itself.


----------



## DeweyCH

Time to get a little bit of book learnin' to go with my experimenting and doing what I see pictures of on the Interwebs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 14, 2021)

bcowen said:


> At the same point the technicality becomes important.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Time to get a little bit of book learnin' to go with my experimenting and doing what I see pictures of on the Interwebs.


After over 40 years in electronics I seldom read technical books, today I need to read The Secret History by Donna Tartt and reread Queens Gambit by Walter Tevis, and if there is time finish a couple other books I will recommend for other book clubs. If you need any thing, I still have multiples of many items since I ran my own business for ten years. I probably sold most of my new Weller soldering stations and Panavise devices, but I still have a few things around. I keep three separate benches in my shop for different types of electronics including tube re-soldering.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> After over 40 years in electronics I seldom read technical books, today I need to read The Secret History by Donna Tartt and reread Queens Gambit by Walter Tevis, and if there is time finish a couple other books I will recommend for other book clubs. If you need any thing, I still have multiples of many items since I ran my own business for ten years. I probably sold most of my new Weller soldering stations and Panavise devices, but I still have a few things around. I keep three separate benches in my shop for different types of electronics including tube re-soldering.


That's very kind and generous, thank you!


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> That's very kind and generous, thank you!


I have capacitors still in original sleeves. Oh and I do run a company where I get samples of some of the best wire known to man but generally not more than 25 feet at a time. Some can run $60 a foot but I tend to use that in my own builds.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have capacitors still in original sleeves. Oh and I do run a company where I get samples of some of the best wire known to man but generally not more than 25 feet at a time. Some can run $60 a foot but I tend to use that in my own builds.



You have any 47uF Mundorfs?  I might need another pair.  I think I have four Cardas 0.47uF's for bypasses, so no need to look for those (but I appreciate the thought in advance).


----------



## therremans

Ripper2860 said:


> At what point does a DV amp cease being a DV amp?


Well, the modded Darkvoice is really a product of when the cost of goods sold no longer becomes the most important factor. 

I am planning an amp build later this year and I owe it to the Darkvoice, people like @bcowen, @L0rdGwyn, @Paladin79 and other builders or modders. Many started with a bottlehead crack, got into modifying and ended up building their own amps. The Darkvoice is that gateway for me. I can build from a schematic, but I’m no circuit designer.

My new thought, finish modding out my DV with the rest of my higher grade replacement components that I already have purchased. This keeps most of the original circuit intact and it will be done and I can move on from the Darkvoice and it’s chassis. I’ll keep the amp in that state. The only reason why I would do this is to build a brand new amp, new chassis, a new box (from @Paladin79 ?), implementing all of the improvements made by @L0rdGwyn and @Paladin79 and without any space restrictions put on the power supply, choke, output caps, gyrator loads, etc.

So maybe I’ll just have to wait and copy @L0rdGwyn’s component selection in the next build he just dropped using the improved DV circuit design. Then borrow @Paladin79’s idea like using VU meters, maybe an ebony stained satin finish, brass top plate? 

 Cheers in advance. It does make me happy.

This makes the most sense for me vs buying a new DV to apply these new mods to. I don’t really want two DV’s on my desk.

(Also, has @JKDJedi been grounded from the forum?)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You have any 47uF Mundorfs?  I might need another pair.  I think I have four Cardas 0.47uF's for bypasses, so no need to look for those (but I appreciate the thought in advance).


I have plenty of Mundorfs but not that value. I do not use Cardas as a habit. I will design an all new power supply section and keep that separate inside the case so I can donate those parts to you.    I might also find a cap or two Finnegan has batted around the floor, those are yours as well. He is getting tired of batting around Foton tubes so I like to vary his toy routine.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> (Also, has @JKDJedi been grounded from the forum?)



Apparently (unlike me) he is well grounded.  

He mentioned something about cycling, so perhaps he is now rolling NOS sprocket chains.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have plenty of Mundorfs but not that value. I do not use Cardas as a habit. I will design an all new power supply section and keep that separate inside the case so I can donate those parts to you.    I might also find a cap or two Finnegan has batted around the floor, those are yours as well. He is getting tired of batting around Foton tubes so I like to vary his toy routine.



You mean he's "disappeared" all your GE's already?  I have a few left I can send you...give them a purpose in life.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean he's "disappeared" all your GE's already?  I have a few left I can send you...give them a purpose in life.


The GE’s are stashed away in a box labeled Cowen, there is no avoiding their destiny.😺
I do need to find a way to make the Darkvoice build more interesting though, think of a wager Bill.


----------



## Ripper2860

Here's a challenge...

A build that will drive Bill's 13 ohm AFCv2 HPs?  😯


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's a challenge...
> 
> A build that will drive Bill's 13 ohm AFCv2 HPs?  😯


I have already put together a circuit for those lol. I had no headphones to check it with lol, it kinda sorta worked I believe. 😽


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The GE’s are stashed away in a box labeled Cowen, there is no avoiding their destiny.😺
> I do need to find a way to make the Darkvoice build more interesting though, think of a wager Bill.



A wager?  OK.  Send me your reconfigured Darkvoice (FrankenVoice? ) when you're done with it, and I bet that I can tell the difference between it and my (mostly) stock Darkvoice....blind. If I can't, you get a steak dinner. If I can, I get to keep it.   Deal?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's a challenge...
> 
> A build that will drive Bill's 13 ohm AFCv2 HPs?  😯



Now an OTL that could do *that* would be ultra cool.  Except I don't have the AFC's any more.  I could probably buy another pair though...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> A wager?  OK.  Send me your reconfigured Darkvoice (FrankenVoice? ) when you're done with it, and I bet that I can tell the difference between it and my (mostly) stock Darkvoice....blind. If I can't, you get a steak dinner. If I can, I get to keep it.   Deal?


Let me get this straight, I send you all my GE 6sn7’s, you listen to them every day for a month and buy me a bottle of Balvenie that I will enjoy with my pseudo Darkvoice? You drive a hard bargain but it is doable.😸


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Now an OTL that could do *that* would be ultra cool.  Except I don't have the AFC's any more.  I could probably buy another pair though...



You sold them? Saving up for Senn HD820 or ZMFs?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You sold them? Saving up for Senn HD820 or ZMFs?



Yup.  The Lyr 3 too.  Now if I could just keep from spending money on this Darkvoice, I'd be able to get some ZMF's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Let me get this straight, I send you all my GE 6sn7’s, you listen to them every day for a month and buy me a bottle of Balvenie that I will enjoy with my pseudo Darkvoice? You drive a hard bargain but it is doable.😸



I think something got lost in translation there.  But I suppose the original proposition was tilted a wee bit in my favor.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 14, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yup.  The Lyr 3 too.  Now if I could just keep from spending money on this Darkvoice, I'd be able to get some ZMF's.



I'll be using Lyr 3 while Incubus is at the mothership.  After it comes back better than ever, I'll likely sell Lyr 3.  Incubus is definitely the primary HP amp w/ Valhalla 2 as the #2 on my work rig PC paired with HD6XX.

May use the Lyr 3 sale  to help fund purchase of Magnepan LRS speakers for use with Ragnarok v1 on the 2 channel rig.  😉


----------



## therremans

*Fan control module with temp sensor*








PWM Fan Module w/sensor probe (link)
12v power supply (link)
DC power jack (link)

I will add this small module inside the chassis. It’s mostly so my 12V fan will not run at 100% by default and I can dial it in to ramp up in speed as the tubes warm up the chassis. It’s also fully programmable which is nice to keep it inaudible at max speed.

Demo video (audio on): link


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> *Fan control module with temp sensor*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We may have to discuss the word "inaudible" some time lol, but I suppose with headphones on it may be fine. Listening through my system with Focal Utopias it sounded like a Boeing 737 leaving Dulles International Airport.


----------



## therremans (Feb 14, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> We may have to discuss the word "inaudible" some time lol, but I suppose with headphones on it may be fine. Listening through my system with Focal Utopias it sounded like a Boeing 737 leaving Dulles International Airport.


The fan went to max speed in the video for demonstration. I will dial it in to not reach that speed with the ambient temp of the warmed up amp.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> The fan went to max speed in the video for demonstration. I will dial it in to not reach that speed with the ambient temp of the warmed up amp.


I was kidding of course and the microphone was certainly a factor. I am pretty used to class A and right now I welcome the warmth. Around 17 F tonight with as much as a foot of snow. And so it goes.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I was kidding of course and the microphone was certainly a factor. I am pretty used to class A and right now I welcome the warmth. Around 17 F tonight with as much as a foot of snow. And so it goes.


Current situation here, didn’t see too many willing individuals on our walk downtown for lunch.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 14, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> We may have to discuss the word "inaudible" some time lol, but I suppose with headphones on it may be fine. Listening through my system with Focal Utopias it sounded like a Boeing 737 leaving Dulles International Airport.



I'm using the same fan (mostly) as @therremans who pointed me to it initially. I put together a box with a manual speed controller out of the computer parts bin, repurposed an old wall wart,  grabbed a switch out of the audio parts bin, and swiped a little hobby box from the wife (no, it's not Tiger maple ).  With the fan turned down to about 7v it is pretty much inaudible from a foot away and still keeps the amp chassis and top plate at just above room temp at that speed, even after playing for 3 or 4 hours. Turning it up to full speed (12v) and it gets quite loud as @therremans video demonstrated, but it provides a nice benefit even at about 60% of max. Tried it with a 5v wall wart to see if I could just eliminate the speed controller altogether, but the fan wouldn't spin up at that low a starting voltage. Seems to do fine as long as it's getting 7+ volts at startup.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Fan control module with temp sensor*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice!!!  Be very interested to know how well that works (chassis temp versus noise level) once you get it installed


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Current situation here, didn’t see too many willing individuals on our walk downtown for lunch.



It's really cold here too.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's really cold here too.


Jerk!!!!


----------



## therremans (Feb 14, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Nice!!!  Be very interested to know how well that works (chassis temp versus noise level) once you get it installed


It should work like this but I’ll let you know when it’s installed. I haven’t measured the temps inside and will adjust by trial and error. The idle setting (always on) will have to be 5%. The module doesn’t allow the fan to sit at 0% for it’s min power.

*Example:*

Power:
Min: 5%
Max: 65% or whatever is considered the loudest I would want. I don’t want to hear it.

Fan speed spread:
Starting: 30C (86F) fan beings speeding up from 5%
Ending: 60C (140F) the fan will be at its max set power setting at this temperature, so let’s say 65%. Due to the cooling, it will likely never reach this, so I may have to adjust the ending temp and max power settings to where it’s effective and quiet


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 14, 2021)

bcowen said:


> It's really cold here too.



Hell hath frozen over in Texas.
Not even the low yet. 🤨


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Hell hath frozen over in Texas.
> Not even the low yet. 🤨


I will chip in if you want to ship Cowen a block of ice, maybe he will drop it on his foot.😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I will chip in if you want to ship Cowen a block of ice, maybe he will drop it on his foot.😺


Don’t all you DV owners/modded need the ice to keep the DVs cool?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> You sold them? Saving up for Senn HD820 or ZMFs?


Autographed Beats...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Don’t all you DV owners/modded need the ice to keep the DVs cool?


Hell’s kittens man, my downstairs is like 50 degrees, I am happy for the heat!!!! I have five class A amps as a backup for my heat pump.😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Hell’s kittens man, my downstairs is like 50 degrees, I am happy for the heat!!!! I have five class A amps as a backup for my heat pump.😺


Is it time to call 1-800-CARY211 ?


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Autographed Beats...


Like these? https://www.headphones.com/collections/headphones/products/mediocre-headphones-on-wall


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Like these? https://www.headphones.com/collections/headphones/products/mediocre-headphones-on-wall


In this case, one does not get the wall: a bad deal. At least from the recently deceased Phil Spector one got a “wall of sound”...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 14, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Is it time to call 1-800-CARY211 ?


I do happen to have a Cary but it is in my shop, my current speaker amp has WW 2 era power tubes in metal cages with quick change tabs on the top. I called it the Cowen for a while but it is too cool for that appellation, at this point so I am going with Gemini Regna. Do not try this at home kids.


----------



## jonathan c

As if modifying DVs to unrecognisability was not esoteric enough to the head-fi-less, now the symbolism is being strewn aside:


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## Galapac

💀


----------



## Ripper2860

🤠


----------



## Deceneu808

Can someone enlighten me about the RCA red base 5692 tube. Why is it considered so special because the price certainly is...


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Can someone enlighten me about the RCA red base 5692 tube. Why is it considered so special because the price certainly is...


As I recall, 5692's are 10,000 hour tubes for one thing and the RCA is well respected and more scarce than say CBS/Hytrons.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Can someone enlighten me about the RCA red base 5692 tube. Why is it considered so special because the price certainly is...


I recently compared an RCA, GE and Hytron 5692. My GE red base was the winner out of the three. I recommend going for the GE branded red bases from the 50s. It may even save you a little money. I was lucky and only paid $20 ea. for mine.


therremans said:


> *5692 - RCA, GE, CBS/Hytron*
> 
> I have found conflicting information if GE or RCA was the actual manufacturer of the famous red based tube. This could be because although RCA introduced the tube schematic in 1949, but may very well have contracted GE to build the tubes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Paladin79

I did not realize several of you were using cooling fans on the Darkvoice, it is another reason I want to go immediately to a larger cabinet.  I will run some heat tests before and after. Electrolytic capacitors can fail from heat stress.  When you start replacing capacitors without paying attention to heat you can have serious issues. I need to examine what is there originally of course but I will also rearrange and allow more room.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I did not realize several of you were using cooling fans on the Darkvoice, it is another reason I want to go immediately to a larger cabinet.  I will run some heat tests before and after. Electrolytic capacitors can fail from heat stress.  When you start replacing capacitors without paying attention to heat you can have serious issues. I need to examine what is there originally of course but I will also rearrange and allow more room.


That metal top plate does get quite hot. After running an exhaust fan, it’s actually relatively cool to the touch after hours of use. (room temp to the touch in swamp country ie: NC)
The chassis is almost made for it, as it has proper vent holes that allow air to be drawn in the sides and out the bottom. My power tubes remain pretty cool as well. I can swap out a 6080 _almost_ instantly with bare hands. But the big concern was the caps. I didn’t want to bake my new Vishay output caps and other replacements. I know the ratings and aimed for higher rated components. Higher temps will shorten the caps life. But still have not probed the temp inside. I don’t own a plastic probe or a temp reading gun.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 15, 2021)

therremans said:


> That metal top plate does get quite hot. After running an exhaust fan, it’s actually relatively cool to the touch after hours of use. (room temp to the touch in swamp country ie: NC)
> The chassis is almost made for it, as it has proper vent holes that allow air to be drawn in the sides and out the bottom. My power tubes remain pretty cool as well. I can swap out a 6080 _almost_ instantly with bare hands. But the big concern was the caps. I didn’t want to bake my new Vishay output caps and other replacements. I know the ratings and aimed for higher rated components. Higher temps will shorten the caps life. But still have not probed the temp inside. I don’t own a plastic probe or a temp reading gun.


You sound like you know what you are doing lol, some folks have less experience. Some of my past employees did component level repair on computer mainboards. There was one major brand whose caps were too close to a heat sink and were not rated 105 degrees, we bought those by the case and replaced so many it was hilarious. Something like this:


----------



## therremans (Feb 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You sound like you know what you are doing lol, some folks have less experience. Some of my past employees did component level repair on computer mainboards. There was one major brand whose caps were too close to a heat sink and were not rated 105 degrees, we bought those by the case and replaced so many it was hilarious.


I’m just an amateur who likes the details. You turned their oversight into an opportunity. That’s great. Do you need another employee? 


therremans said:


> Necessary to operate? Well clearly not.
> Necessary as in a mod? I think it’s a good idea, especially if you’ve gone and replaced all the capacitors inside with higher grade ones.
> 
> Yes, however you also have to consider what the capacitors are rated at.. temp and leakage current (max). A capacitors lifespan is measured by an equation using heat, voltage and ripple current. The speed of the internal chemical reaction is dependent on the temp. There’s a law that for every 10 degrees C the temp drops.. the cap life actually doubles. Less stress, lower leakage current, improvement in life expectancy. Leakage current increases with temperature. (I’m also no engineer.)


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I’m just an amateur who likes the details. You turned their oversight into an opportunity. That’s great. Do you need another employee?


Not at this time lol. My son worked for me when he was 13 or 14, he made $50 an hour and helped pay for his college. Simple electronic repair but so many things go by the wayside. I set up a company to repair computer monitors then they got to be throw away items, and so it goes.

I realize many things have been covered on the Darkvoice but I like to think for myself so I am not reading many of the previous posts so I apologize if what I said was redundant. I saw a couple people mention fans.

Before I touched a BH Crack I knew what I wanted to do, and making the cabinet larger was a must. I had seen too many photos like this:


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> That metal top plate does get quite hot. After running an exhaust fan, it’s actually relatively cool to the touch after hours of use. (room temp to the touch in swamp country ie: NC)
> The chassis is almost made for it, as it has proper vent holes that allow air to be drawn in the sides and out the bottom. My power tubes remain pretty cool as well. I can swap out a 6080 _almost_ instantly with bare hands. But the big concern was the caps. I didn’t want to bake my new Vishay output caps and other replacements. I know the ratings and aimed for higher rated components. Higher temps will shorten the caps life. But still have not probed the temp inside. I don’t own a plastic probe or a temp reading gun.



Guh?? IIRC, heat rises. How can it be drawn out the bottom without mechanical assistance? I smell a conspiracy here


----------



## therremans (Feb 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Not at this time lol. My son worked for me when he was 13 or 14, he made $50 an hour and helped pay for his college. Simple electronic repair but so many things go by the wayside. I set up a company to repair computer monitors then they got to be throw away items, and so it goes.
> 
> I realize many things have been covered on the Darkvoice but I like to think for myself so I am not reading many of the previous posts so I apologize if what I said was redundant. I saw a couple people mention fans.
> 
> Before I touched a BH Crack I knew what I wanted to do, and making the cabinet larger was a must. I had seen too many photos like this:


I still kick myself for tossing a black 20” Trinitron flat screen monitor for some Asus LCD panel. I was in my early 20s and was a fool, I was more about living minimally so I could move to Colorado. Sure it was massive and weighed in at about a hundred pounds or more. But whatever was the minor problem, it could have been fixed. I think it was automatically degaussing every once in awhile. But I don’t recall now.


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> Guh?? IIRC, heat rises. How can it be drawn out the bottom without mechanical assistance? I smell a conspiracy here


Mechanical assistance like a fan?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Well, the modded Darkvoice is really a product of when the cost of goods sold no longer becomes the most important factor.
> 
> I am planning an amp build later this year and I owe it to the Darkvoice, people like @bcowen, @L0rdGwyn, @Paladin79 and other builders or modders. Many started with a bottlehead crack, got into modifying and ended up building their own amps. The Darkvoice is that gateway for me. I can build from a schematic, but I’m no circuit designer.
> 
> ...


Out riding guys.. and grounded from buying any more tubes..   I've been castrated .. wife tells me.."the secret is to cut them real.. high..."


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> I recently compared an RCA, GE and Hytron 5692. My GE red base was the winner out of the three. I recommend going for the GE branded red bases from the 50s. It may even save you a little money. I was lucky and only paid $20 ea. for mine.


Thank you. I'll keep an eye out if one pops for sale in Europe


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Mechanical assistance like a fan?


I suppose a fan could be considered part of a conspiracy


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I still kick myself for tossing a black 20” Trinitron flat screen monitor for some Asus LCD panel. I was in my early 20s and was a fool, I was more about living minimally so I could move to Colorado. Sure it was massive and weighed in at about a hundred pounds or more. But whatever was the minor problem, it could have been fixed. I think it was automatically degaussing every once in awhile. But I don’t recall now.


I could get into a discussion about degaussing and positive and negative temperature co-efficient thermistors but I best not lol.
I began teaching my son computers, chess, and electronics when he was four. He surprised me years later after he moved to DC by asking me for parts to fix his LCD tv, he still remembered some things even though he is now in computer science.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> ...(room temp to the touch in *paradise* ie: NC)...



Fixed this for you.


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> Out riding guys.. and grounded from buying any more tubes..   I've been castrated .. wife tells me.."the secret is to cut them real.. high..."



Like just below the chin?  😀


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Like just below the chin?  😀


😂😂😂


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Out riding guys.. and grounded from buying any more tubes..  I've been castrated .. wife tells me.."the secret is to cut them real.. high..."


Riding the bike long enough may end up doing the work for her.


----------



## adamus (Feb 15, 2021)

@L0rdGwyn great work, looks fantastic. Pretty much the mods i did years, but yours looks the part... mine only sounded it.

Crazy idea... there is enough room on those PCBs to fit the edcor 10k tx..... maybe....


----------



## jonathan c

About tubes:


----------



## Ad720

Curious what headphones folks are using with thier DV? For me it's the 6xx. All my other headphones are low impedance (Fostex TH-X00), planar (Sundara) or Stax. Sometimes I think about getting something else to use with the dark voice. I had a set of Beyer 880 before I owned this amp and I just remember really not vibing with them. I'd love to get into a set of ZMF at some point but man, kilobuck headphones...


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Curious what headphones folks are using with thier DV? For me it's the 6xx. All my other headphones are low impedance (Fostex TH-X00), planar (Sundara) or Stax. Sometimes I think about getting something else to use with the dark voice. I had a set of Beyer 880 before I owned this amp and I just remember really not vibing with them. I'd love to get into a set of ZMF at some point but man, kilobuck headphones...


Beyerdynamic dt770 250ohm is a great entry level headphone and matches well with the Darkvoice


----------



## Ad720 (Feb 15, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Beyerdynamic dt770 250ohm is a great entry level headphone and matches well with the Darkvoice



Interesting. The only closed backs I own are Sony MDR7506 that I've used for work forever (I'm in the audio/video production business).


----------



## therremans

Ad720 said:


> Curious what headphones folks are using with thier DV? For me it's the 6xx. All my other headphones are low impedance (Fostex TH-X00), planar (Sundara) or Stax. Sometimes I think about getting something else to use with the dark voice. I had a set of Beyer 880 before I owned this amp and I just remember really not vibing with them. I'd love to get into a set of ZMF at some point but man, kilobuck headphones...


I can give some feedback on Beyerdynamic. I’ve tried the Beyers in 770, 1770 and 1990. I kept the 1990s and it’s now my regular user. I installed Dekoni hybrid pads and use a slight EQ adjustment with a program from Sonarworks. Although the 1990s have many mixed opinions on price and quality. I can say that although they are a good amount more expensive than the 770, 880 or 990, they are made well and continue to perform. I feel like they will last a very long time, indeed built like a tank. I recommend them, fine tuning them with Dekoni pads is also an option.


----------



## Ad720

Thanks for the info. I'm not disputing they are made to last. I found the 880 to be a little fatiguing to listen to (again, before I owned the Dark Voice) and my understanding was the 880 was the most neutral of the line.


----------



## therremans

Ad720 said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm not disputing they are made to last. I found the 880 to be a little fatiguing to listen to (again, before I owned the Dark Voice) and my understanding was the 880 was the most neutral of the line.


I’m not sure. But the 770s I had did have a more peaky high end than the others I owned. However this is all cured with the right pads and some EQ.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ad720 said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm not disputing they are made to last. I found the 880 to be a little fatiguing to listen to (again, before I owned the Dark Voice) and my understanding was the 880 was the most neutral of the line.


Combination of a nice soft tube and them Dekoni pads makes for a righteous pairing. Good Luck.


----------



## Ad720

I have also used the DT109 in my professional life however I believe they have since been classified as a torture device by the UN.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ad720 said:


> Curious what headphones folks are using with thier DV? For me it's the 6xx. All my other headphones are low impedance (Fostex TH-X00), planar (Sundara) or Stax. Sometimes I think about getting something else to use with the dark voice. I had a set of Beyer 880 before I owned this amp and I just remember really not vibing with them. I'd love to get into a set of ZMF at some point but man, kilobuck headphones...


I've really enjoyed the pairings of HD6XX (sold), Beyer T1.2 (sold) and now ZMF Auteurs with the DV. Also some old-school AKGs - mid- and late-production Sextetts.

Really nice pairings all.


----------



## jonathan c

Ad720 said:


> I have also used the DT109 in my professional life however I believe they have since been classified as a torture device by the UN.


Plus use by the CIA for can-boarding?...


----------



## JKDJedi

So I'm contemplating divorcing my wife and just keeping the tubes.. #Doesn'tgetanymorehardcorethanthat


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> So I'm contemplating divorcing my wife and just keeping the tubes.. #Doesn'tgetanymorehardcorethanthat


🤣


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 16, 2021)

Alright, DarkVoice mods are done.  I was able to replace the power switch without removing the front plate, then replaced the original pot with an Alps RK27.  I repurposed the stock pot PCB.

So that's pretty much it, I'll probably think of something else to mess around with over the next few days, but I'm about ready to move on from this project.  Will likely send it back to @Galapac within the next week, will wait until the Neurochrome regulator gets here to size it up in case that becomes something others want to pursue.  Might leave it up to him if he wants to experiment with swapping the Solen caps on the gyrator to something fancier.




Going to be a little tricky since this is no longer stock, but I'll find some stock circuit photos and try to write up some instructions on how to balance and elevated the heater supply to remove the hum, that is a simple modifications that anyone here should be able to do.


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> So I'm contemplating divorcing my wife and just keeping the tubes..



Very doable.  Reach out to Bill.  He should be able to provide assistance with tubes fulfilling your emotional and physical needs.  😉


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here is an OTL power tube you don't see everyday, graphite plate Tung-Sol 7802WA.  Quite possibly the rarest tube I own.


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is an OTL power tube you don't see everyday, graphite plate Tung-Sol 7802WA.  Quite possibly the rarest tube I own.


Isn't that a 6080WB with a different name? Looks a lot like one...precursor?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Galapac said:


> Isn't that a 6080WB with a different name? Looks a lot like one...precursor?



Nope, it is a completely different tube, higher transconductance than even the 5998.

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/7/7802.pdf


----------



## therremans (Feb 16, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Alright, DarkVoice mods are done.  I was able to replace the power switch without removing the front plate, then replaced the original pot with an Alps RK27.  I repurposed the stock pot PCB.
> 
> So that's pretty much it, I'll probably think of something else to mess around with over the next few days, but I'm about ready to move on from this project.  Will likely send it back to @Galapac within the next week, will wait until the Neurochrome regulator gets here to size it up in case that becomes something others want to pursue.  Might leave it up to him if he wants to experiment with swapping the Solen caps on the gyrator to something fancier.
> 
> ...


How does the alps sound? How did you manage to replace the power switch without removing the front plate? The nut secures it from the outside (under the front plate).

Is there a similar gyrator load design available on the open market?

Do you still plan on doing a similar design on this modded DV circuit in a more open chassis? That is my goal.


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> So I'm contemplating divorcing my wife and just keeping the tubes.. #Doesn'tgetanymorehardcorethanthat


Even the GEs?


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> Alright, DarkVoice mods are done.  I was able to replace the power switch without removing the front plate, then replaced the original pot with an Alps RK27.  I repurposed the stock pot PCB.
> 
> So that's pretty much it, I'll probably think of something else to mess around with over the next few days, but I'm about ready to move on from this project.  Will likely send it back to @Galapac within the next week, will wait until the Neurochrome regulator gets here to size it up in case that becomes something others want to pursue.  Might leave it up to him if he wants to experiment with swapping the Solen caps on the gyrator to something fancier.
> 
> ...


Okay, wait wait wait wait... how did you replace the power switch w/o removing the front plate?!?


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> Okay, wait wait wait wait... how did you replace the power switch w/o removing the front plate?!?


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 16, 2021)

therremans said:


> How does the alps sound? How did you manage to replace the power switch without removing the front plate? The nut secures it from the outside (under the front plate).
> 
> Is there a similar gyrator load design available on the open market?
> 
> Do you still plan on doing a similar design on this modded DV circuit in a more open chassis? That is my goal.



The Alps sounds good!  Although I'm not sure if it made a drastic difference in the sound, granted I did not do much critical listening beforehand as to make a direct comparison.  But certainly the knob feel is way, way, WAY better.

The gyrator load is discussed on various threads on diyAudio, lots of variations by the general design is the same.  As I said, I am happy to share mine.  Implementation however will depend on the circuit it is being used in, so the part values could vary slightly.

I will build something similar at some point, although I don't know when exactly, I have a speaker amplifier I have been working on for a long time that needs to be completed first, so I can't give an exact timeline.



DeweyCH said:


> Okay, wait wait wait wait... how did you replace the power switch w/o removing the front plate?!?



I removed the heat shrink from the AC wiring, desoldered the power switch, and unscrewed it from behind.  When it was just about to exit the nut in between the front panel and the interior frame, I stuck a piece of wire through the hole such that the nut did not fall out of alignment when the switch was removed.  I then screwed the new switch in from behind.  The second nut on the interior had to be tightened with some fine tipped pliers from behind.  That was the trickiest part.

BTW, what the EFF is with all of the freaking heat shrink in the DarkVoice?!!  Every tube pin?  Every soldered connection?  REALLY?  My god, absolute insanity.

Just had to get that off my chest.  All of the glue and heatshrink in this amplifier is maddening.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Speaking of future designs...



adamus said:


> @L0rdGwyn great work, looks fantastic. Pretty much the mods i did years, but yours looks the part... mine only sounded it.
> 
> Crazy idea... there is enough room on those PCBs to fit the edcor 10k tx..... maybe....



Cool idea!  But are those Edcors gapped to take 80-100mA on the primary?  Otherwise, would have to cap couple to them anyway, so not sure that would be an improvement, unless you had something else in mind?

This got the gears turning though, could be interesting to load the cathode follower with a low turns ratio output transformer, maybe 2:1 or 4:1 to lower the output impedance further, although they would be large to handle 100mA without saturating, also wouldn't be an OTL anymore  I might explore this idea.


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> BTW, what the EFF is with all of the freaking heat shrink in the DarkVoice?!!  Every tube pin?  Every soldered connection?  REALLY?  My god, absolute insanity.
> 
> Just had to get that off my chest.  All of the glue and heatshrink in this amplifier is maddening.


A-freaking-men. Total novice here and even I think that's absurd.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nope, it is a completely different tube, higher transconductance than even the 5998.
> 
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/7/7802.pdf



>>>>>>>as everyone rushes to Ebay looking for 7802WA's <<<<<<<


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> BTW, what the EFF is with all of the freaking heat shrink in the DarkVoice?!!  Every tube pin?  Every soldered connection?  REALLY?  My god, absolute insanity.
> 
> Just had to get that off my chest.  All of the glue and heatshrink in this amplifier is maddening.



Yeah, supreme overkill without any doubt.  

I will say, however, that the soldering work (at least in my amp) was done quite nicely, and far better than most other things I've seen coming out of China.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> >>>>>>>as everyone rushes to Ebay looking for 7802WA's <<<<<<<



Unfortunately, these are truly unobtainium


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Very doable.  Reach out to Bill.  He should be able to provide assistance with tubes fulfilling your emotional and physical needs.  😉



Yes, but I have a different situation here.  Whenever tubes are mentioned in some derogatory or rolled-eyed tone, all I have to say is "shoes."  The conversation is immediately directed to something other whine-able topic.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Unfortunately, these are truly unobtainium



Well thanks for teasing us then.  I'm not buying any more tubes so just speaking for the other guys, of course.


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 16, 2021)

Oh finally I got the front panel off (haven't had much time to play with this lately) and replaced the power switch. I'm just gonna let those eight hex screws hold the front panel in place from now on. I ended up having to drill out that last screw.

Physical connections (IE non-soldering stuff) are back in place. Tonight I shall solder. Really, this time.

Edit to add: I did decide not to pull the output cap PCB and replace those. Just... too much.


----------



## SHIMACM

DeweyCH said:


> I've really enjoyed the pairings of HD6XX (sold), Beyer T1.2 (sold) and now ZMF Auteurs with the DV. Also some old-school AKGs - mid- and late-production Sextetts.
> 
> Really nice pairings all.



I have T1 (1st Generation) and I was always in doubt if Darkvoice was capable of amplifying it to its maximum potential.

I've always been curious to listen to hd6xx on Darkvoice, but I haven't had the opportunity yet.

You had the two headphones, how do they compare on Darkvoice?


----------



## DeweyCH

SHIMACM said:


> I have T1 (1st Generation) and I was always in doubt if Darkvoice was capable of amplifying it to its maximum potential.
> 
> I've always been curious to listen to hd6xx on Darkvoice, but I haven't had the opportunity yet.
> 
> You had the two headphones, how do they compare on Darkvoice?


It's hard to make a comparison, I sold the Senns long before I bought the Beyers. I also got the Beyers at a point where my DV had been modded a bit and had better tubes. Both sang like birds when fed by it.


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 16, 2021)

BTW, what gauge wires do y'all use when replacing the internal wiring? I kind of specifically wonder about @L0rdGwyn 's green twisted wire from this post. Or does it even particularly matter?

Could I actually use speaker wire?

EDIT: Never mind, I figured that bit out. 14 gauge solid-core grounding wire. Got it.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> BTW, what gauge wires do y'all use when replacing the internal wiring? I kind of specifically wonder about @L0rdGwyn 's green twisted wire from this post. Or does it even particularly matter?
> 
> Could I actually use speaker wire?



Depends on which wiring you're referring to.  Different gauges needed at different points.  For the heater wiring, 20 gauge is probably sufficient (although @L0rdGwyn should feel free to correct me if not), but you would NOT want to use traditional "speaker wire" there unless you can twist the two strands together.  The twisting is needed to cancel noise as the heater wiring is carrying AC current.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 19, 2021)

Okay, going to try to explain how you go about center-tapping and elevating the heaters of the stock DarkVoice.

*Please read in full before making any changes, be sure to understand what you are doing before you do it.  If you are unsure if what you have done is correct, take a photo and PM me or post in the thread and tag me.  Carry out these modifications at your own risk, there is ~200VDC inside the amplifier, working with high voltages carries a shock and safety hazard.

Heater Center Tap*

What you will need:

2x 100ohm 1/2 resistors (type does not matter, metal film would be fine).
1x 2K 1/4W resistor
1x length of 20AWG wire (solid or stranded does not matter)

1) Find the two points on the main PCB where the heater wiring is soldered, here.




2) Solder one end of a 100ohm 1/2W resistor to each heater winding pad.  Twist together the opposite ends and solder them together, like the illustration below.  This is the center tap point!



3) Break the ground connection between the 6SN7 heater and the ground bus below.  This wire can simply be cut or desoldered and discarded.



*If you are elevating the heaters, skip to step 6.  If you are not, go to step 4.*

4) Now connect a piece of wire from the new center tap point to the ground bus.  This is the long, thin length of bare wire that runs throughout the chassis.



5) Because the power LED is run from the heater supply and we have just halved the voltage it sees, we must adjust the series resistance before the power LED.  On the power LED PCB, there are two 2K resistors, one on top and one on the bottom.  Add the additional 2K resistor in parallel with the top 2K resistor.  This means the leads of the new resistor will be soldered to the same pads as the existing 2K resistor.

If you are not elevating the heaters, you are done, the hum should be improved but might not be completely eradicated.

*Elevated Heater Supply*

You should have just finished step 3 and created the virtual center tap and broken the heater ground connection at the 6SN7 socket.  To elevate the heater supply, we must make a voltage divider from the B+ supply to reduce its voltage to our desired elevation voltage.  Anything from 30V-60V will work fine.  This elevated voltage will be applied to the center tap point.

Additional items you will need:

1x 220K 1/2W resistor (type does not matter)
1x 100K 1/2W resistor (type does not matter)
1x 10uF 250VDC electrolytic capacitor (these Vishay / Sprague axial caps will work fine: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Sprague/TVA1504/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwFf0viD3Y3aqMjiJTbj4RWQfU45X0ilM=)
2x additional length of 20AWG wire (solid or stranded does not matter)

6) Find the below power supply capacitor, the second to last in the supply (note this can be done with either capacitor in this position, they are all in parallel).  This is the point at which you will connect the voltage divider.  The B+ at this point should be *roughly* 150V, although I would not be surprised if it varied between amplifiers given the quality of the transformer, the end result will be the same.



7) To the newly created center tap point (the junction of the two 100ohm resistors), solder one end of the 220K resistor, one end of the 100K resistor, the *positive* end of the 10uF electrolytic capacitor, and one end of a 20AWG length of wire.

8) Solder the other end of the 100K resistor and the *negative *end of the electrolytic capacitor to the ground bus, shown in step 4.

9) The other end of the 220K resistor must be connected to the *positive* end of the power supply capacitor shown in step 6.  If the leads are long enough to reach from the center tap point to the positive terminal, it can be done this way.  Otherwise, connect the other end using an additional length of 20 AWG wire.

10) Disconnect the power LED PCB from the ground bus, shown below.  The wire can simply be removed from the PCB and the excess clipped.



11) The power LED PCB ground must now be brought to the center tap point so the power LED does not see the elevated supply DC offset.  Connect the length of wire connected to the heater center tap to the power LED ground PCB pad.

The wiring should look like below, another crude illustration.



12) Lastly, as in step 5, the series resistance before the power LED must be reduced so the LED will light up.  On the power LED PCB, there are two 2K resistors, one on top and one on the bottom.  Add the additional 2K resistor in parallel with the top 2K resistor.  This means the leads of the new resistor will be soldered to the same pads as the existing 2K resistor.

That's it, you should now have ~45VDC heater elevation, the hum present on any noisy tubes should now be gone.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> BTW, what gauge wires do y'all use when replacing the internal wiring? I kind of specifically wonder about @L0rdGwyn 's green twisted wire from this post. Or does it even particularly matter?
> 
> Could I actually use speaker wire?
> 
> EDIT: Never mind, I figured that bit out. 14 gauge solid-core grounding wire. Got it.





bcowen said:


> Depends on which wiring you're referring to.  Different gauges needed at different points.  For the heater wiring, 20 gauge is probably sufficient (although @L0rdGwyn should feel free to correct me if not), but you would NOT want to use traditional "speaker wire" there unless you can twist the two strands together.  The twisting is needed to cancel noise as the heater wiring is carrying AC current.



14AWG is way overkill, 20AWG for heaters will work just fine, should be a nice tight twist.  Solid is better for this as it keeps its shape better than stranded.  Take two equal lengths of wire, attach one end of them to a vice, attach the other end to a power drill and twist slowly while gently pulling taught with the drill.


----------



## Damok

I have never been so disappointed in a product before but there is something wrong with my Darkvoice. It arrived a few days ago and the first day was just amazing on the stock tubes, I had a great time just listening to music and relaxing. I swapped the tubes after a few hours and went back to listening and everything was amazing. I turned it off and went to bed for the night, I woke up and turned it back on and started letting it arm up while I read my morning emails. I plugged in my headphones and started listening, I heard a weird loud popping noise out of the left ear and then the nothing out of the left channel. The right channel was still going and as I went over to turn it off it popped again and turned back on, I thought it was a weird glitch but it just kept happening every 1-2 mins. I swapped back to the Stock tubes as maybe that was the issue but no, I still get this horrible pop in the left channel and it goes silent for a bit then randomly pops and comes back on. 

Has anyone experienced this and is the whole thing just f'ed or is there something I can do to fix it?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Damok said:


> I have never been so disappointed in a product before but there is something wrong with my Darkvoice. It arrived a few days ago and the first day was just amazing on the stock tubes, I had a great time just listening to music and relaxing. I swapped the tubes after a few hours and went back to listening and everything was amazing. I turned it off and went to bed for the night, I woke up and turned it back on and started letting it arm up while I read my morning emails. I plugged in my headphones and started listening, I heard a weird loud popping noise out of the left ear and then the nothing out of the left channel. The right channel was still going and as I went over to turn it off it popped again and turned back on, I thought it was a weird glitch but it just kept happening every 1-2 mins. I swapped back to the Stock tubes as maybe that was the issue but no, I still get this horrible pop in the left channel and it goes silent for a bit then randomly pops and comes back on.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this and is the whole thing just f'ed or is there something I can do to fix it?



If it is happening on different tubes, I would just replace it.  Could be a short, could be a bad part, you would have to open it up to diagnose it, which would likely void any warranty, so best to just exchange it.


----------



## therremans

Damok said:


> I have never been so disappointed in a product before but there is something wrong with my Darkvoice. It arrived a few days ago and the first day was just amazing on the stock tubes, I had a great time just listening to music and relaxing. I swapped the tubes after a few hours and went back to listening and everything was amazing. I turned it off and went to bed for the night, I woke up and turned it back on and started letting it arm up while I read my morning emails. I plugged in my headphones and started listening, I heard a weird loud popping noise out of the left ear and then the nothing out of the left channel. The right channel was still going and as I went over to turn it off it popped again and turned back on, I thought it was a weird glitch but it just kept happening every 1-2 mins. I swapped back to the Stock tubes as maybe that was the issue but no, I still get this horrible pop in the left channel and it goes silent for a bit then randomly pops and comes back on.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this and is the whole thing just f'ed or is there something I can do to fix it?


Most things can be fixed. First, where did you purchase the amp? I’m sure they will likely make it right for you. So you confirmed this is happening with both sets of tubes. What are the replacement tubes that you swapped in?


----------



## Galapac

If the buyer bought it on drop they will take it back and send another out fairly quickly. They have good CS. eBay...not so much.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, going to try to explain how you go about center-tapping and elevating the heaters of the stock DarkVoice.
> 
> *Please read in full before making any changes, be sure to understand what you are doing before you do it.  If you are unsure if what you have done is correct, take a photo and PM me or post in the thread and tag me.
> 
> ...




LG, this is awesome.  Thanks so much!

One question:  if the heaters are currently over-voltaged (as in ~7v that seems to be the norm), do the resistance values you've indicated for elevating the supply bring that down to ~6.3v regardless of the existing voltage?  Or do those values need adjusted depending on existing conditions?  I mentioned before mine were at 6.95v, and IIRC you were measuring ~7.15v on the one you have.  Thanks!!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> LG, this is awesome.  Thanks so much!
> 
> One question:  if the heaters are currently over-voltaged (as in ~7v that seems to be the norm), do the resistance values you've indicated for elevating the supply bring that down to ~6.3v regardless of the existing voltage?  Or do those values need adjusted depending on existing conditions?  I mentioned before mine were at 6.95v, and IIRC you were measuring ~7.15v on the one you have.  Thanks!!



The guide above excludes the heater over voltage issue.  The same calculation that you linked in my DIY thread applies just the same, the resistors are in series with the tube heater wiring.  You can attach those series resistors directly to the heater pads on the main PCB, then attach the two 100ohm center tap resistors directly to the voltage dropping resistors.  Hope that makes sense, if not I can draw another diagram.  That is what I have done in the modded DarkVoice in the picture below (the heaters are not elevated in this photo).




Actually, I'll just add them to the diagram, but note the values must be calculated.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> The guide above excludes the heater over voltage issue.  The same calculation that you linked in my DIY thread applies just the same, the resistors are in series with the tube heater wiring.  You can attach those series resistors directly to the heater pads on the main PCB, then attach the two 100ohm center tap resistors directly to the voltage dropping resistors.  Hope that makes sense, if not I can draw another diagram.  That is what I have done in the modded DarkVoice in the picture below (the heaters are not elevated in this photo).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I'll just add them to the diagram, but note the values must be calculated.



Makes perfect sense.  Thanks!


----------



## Damok

therremans said:


> Most things can be fixed. First, where did you purchase the amp? I’m sure they will likely make it right for you. So you confirmed this is happening with both sets of tubes. What are the replacement tubes that you swapped in?





Galapac said:


> If the buyer bought it on drop they will take it back and send another out fairly quickly. They have good CS. eBay...not so much.



I bought it from Drop, it just arrived a few days ago. I will contact them and see what the return policy is, I have also heard their CS is pretty good. The replacement tubes I bought: United NOS 5998, RCA 6SN7GTB. I also bought Dual Socket thingy and 2x Sylvania 6J5GT's but I havnt tried that yet. The socket doesnt go all the way down so I am not sure if I need an adapter for it or whatever.


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, going to try to explain how you go about center-tapping and elevating the heaters of the stock DarkVoice.
> 
> *Please read in full before making any changes, be sure to understand what you are doing before you do it.  If you are unsure if what you have done is correct, take a photo and PM me or post in the thread and tag me.
> 
> ...


This. Is. Epic.


----------



## Galapac

Damok said:


> I bought it from Drop, it just arrived a few days ago. I will contact them and see what the return policy is, I have also heard their CS is pretty good. The replacement tubes I bought: United NOS 5998, RCA 6SN7GTB. I also bought Dual Socket thingy and 2x Sylvania 6J5GT's but I havnt tried that yet. The socket doesnt go all the way down so I am not sure if I need an adapter for it or whatever.


You will probably need a socket saver to elevate the socket enough for the 6J5GT adapter to work as the socket sits a bit low on the DV. Good luck on the return/replacement as it should not be an issue other than the wait.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I forgot to mention two benefits of the elevating heater mod thing...

1) the voltage divider will act as a bleeder resistor for the power supply and will discharge the capacitors when the amplifier is turned off

2) you can remove the electrolytic bypass capacitors from the 6SN7 cathodes from the Hum Fitz mod (did I say it right?)


----------



## Damok

Damok said:


> I bought it from Drop, it just arrived a few days ago. I will contact them and see what the return policy is, I have also heard their CS is pretty good. The replacement tubes I bought: United NOS 5998, RCA 6SN7GTB. I also bought Dual Socket thingy and 2x Sylvania 6J5GT's but I havnt tried that yet. The socket doesnt go all the way down so I am not sure if I need an adapter for it or whatever.



I am such a screw up, I cant believe I made such a massive mistake... I was too busy trying to ensure the tube was centered left and right when socketing it I didnt pay attention to front and back and the NOS 5998 was not socketed properly. The girlfriend took a look at it for me and told me it didnt feel properly seated, now I am back to enjoying the music.


----------



## Ripper2860

We've all been there, brother.  😄


----------



## bcowen (Feb 17, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I forgot to mention two benefits of the elevating heater mod thing...
> 
> 1) the voltage divider will act as a bleeder resistor for the power supply and will discharge the capacitors when the amplifier is turned off
> 
> 2) you can remove the electrolytic bypass capacitors from the 6SN7 cathodes from the Hum Fitz mod (did I say it right?)



I think it's technically the "Fitz mod" to address the hum, but close enough.   

And I actually have all the necessary parts in stock.  Well, the 10uF cap I have is 450v, but close enough (and it's only slightly bigger)...


----------



## DeweyCH

I have two quick questions about the center tap:

1 - the resistor at the LCD only impacts whether or not the LCD lights up, correct?
2 - two 2k resistors in parallel have a total resistance of 1k, correct? As such could I replace the upper 2k resistor with a 1k (as I don't have a 2k at my disposal)?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> I have two quick questions about the center tap:
> 
> 1 - the resistor at the LCD only impacts whether or not the LCD lights up, correct?
> 2 - two 2k resistors in parallel have a total resistance of 1k, correct? As such could I replace the upper 2k resistor with a 1k (as I don't have a 2k at my disposal)?



Correct and correct. Only suggested paralleling a second 2K for simplicity, but the other resistor could be removed and replaced.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> I think it's technically the "Fitz mod" to address the hum, but close enough.
> 
> And I actually have all the necessary parts in stock.  Well, the 10uF cap I have is 450v, but close enough (and it's only slightly bigger)...



Let us know how it goes


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2021)

My Darkvoice just arrived, luckily I saw an UPS email. It was placed in a plastic bag and dropped into the snow near my driveway lol.
Most likely I will work on an extension for @bcowen then get back to my changes after I work on a more pressing project. I will show the outside of my finished amp when my changes are complete.


----------



## Deceneu808

So my 5998 tubes started doing funky crap again. One of them has almost no sound in the right channel and a little distortion. The second one plays almost full volume but distort like hell. Should I try to add solder on the pins ? They look as if they have nothing left there. I'll try to snap a few pics but I doubt it will show on the photo. Any other suggestions ?


----------



## Mr Trev

L0rdGwyn said:


> Speaking of future designs...
> 
> 
> This got the gears turning though, could be interesting to load the cathode follower with a low turns ratio output transformer, maybe 2:1 or 4:1 to lower the output impedance further, although they would be large to handle 100mA without saturating, also wouldn't be an OTL anymore  I might explore this idea.



Would it be possible to have it both ways? Dedicated hi/lo impedance outputs?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> So my 5998 tubes started doing funky crap again. One of them has almost no sound in the right channel and a little distortion. The second one plays almost full volume but distort like hell. Should I try to add solder on the pins ? They look as if they have nothing left there. I'll try to snap a few pics but I doubt it will show on the photo. Any other suggestions ?


If you try re-flowing or re-soldering the pins and it does not help, I should be around this evening and I will talk you through more detailed solder replacement.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 17, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> If you try re-flowing or re-soldering the pins and it does not help, I should be around this evening and I will talk you through more detailed solder replacement.


I wrote back in a post, the tubes worked fine for about an hour until this. I reflowed the solder on the pins meaning that I used a heated hammer for about 10-15 seconds and then I've spread it around the tip of the pin. Did this. Both tubes worked fine. Only tested them a track or two and left one in the DV and another went in to the box of tubes. Now a few days later the one in the DV started to distort again. For a second I thought it was my headphones. I'm on my second pair of DT880 so my first thought was "not again..." But I switched the power tube and they work fine. I did the whole process again of reflowing but this time with no success. They won't work.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 17, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Would it be possible to have it both ways? Dedicated hi/lo impedance outputs?



You sure could, just use a transformer with multiple output taps. I've put together some simulations of this idea, it will work, just need to find a happy medium between the gain of the input tube and the turns ratio of the output transformer.  Note that with a cathode follower output operating at unity gain, the entire voltage gain of the amplifier is generated by the input stage, so you don't want to be in a situation where the input tube has to swing large amounts of voltage and distorting to generate a reasonable output on the transformer secondary.  Restated, the cathode follower provides no voltage gain and the transformer steps down any voltage gain generated by the input tube, so a reasonably low turns ratio OPT is likely the way to go.  Will also need a cathode resistor between the OPT primary and ground to bias the cathode follower, so there will be a slight loss of output voltage there as well.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> I wrote back in a post, the tubes worked fine for about an hour until this. I reflowed the solder on the pins meaning that I used a heated hammer for about 10-15 seconds and then I've spread it around the tip of the pin. Did this. Both tubes worked fine. Only tested them a track or two and left one in the DV and another went in to the box of tubes. Now a few days later the one in the DV started to distort again. For a second I thought it was my headphones. I'm on my second pair of DT880 so my first thought was "not again..." But I switched the power tube and they work fine. I did the whole process again of reflowing but this time with no success. They won't work.



Definitely sounds like a solder problem.  I've had a total of 5 Tung-Sol / Chatham tubes that have had pin solder issues. None of them 5998's, but 6AS7's and 6080's.  On a couple of them when I sucked the solder out there was almost no solder in some of the pins at all.  We know at this point that the older Russian tubes (Fotons and Melz anyway) have a high incident rate of pin solder issues, but my experience with the Tung Sols / Chathams is that the incident rate is nearly as high.  Best to do a thorough sucking job and then replace with a decent amount of quality new solder, especially for tubes as expensive and desirable as a 5998.  If you don't have a "sucker," the Soldapullt that @Paladin79 mentioned a while back isn't expensive and works very nicely.  

https://www.amazon.com/EDSYN-The-Or...d=1&keywords=soldapullt&qid=1613584134&sr=8-1


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Let us know how it goes



Will do.  I will probably do this mod first before I mess with the output caps and make sure nothing blows up before I put in $100 worth of Mundorfs.   Plus I need to order another pair of the 47uf ones anyway....


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Definitely sounds like a solder problem.  I've had a total of 5 Tung-Sol / Chatham tubes that have had pin solder issues. None of them 5998's, but 6AS7's and 6080's.  On a couple of them when I sucked the solder out there was almost no solder in some of the pins at all.  We know at this point that the older Russian tubes (Fotons and Melz anyway) have a high incident rate of pin solder issues, but my experience with the Tung Sols / Chathams is that the incident rate is nearly as high.  Best to do a thorough sucking job and then replace with a decent amount of quality new solder, especially for tubes as expensive and desirable as a 5998.  If you don't have a "sucker," the Soldapullt that @Paladin79 mentioned a while back isn't expensive and works very nicely.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/EDSYN-The-Or...d=1&keywords=soldapullt&qid=1613584134&sr=8-1



I will be buying everything from my local hardware store. What else do I need besides the "sucker" ? You guys will have to walk me through

Will this work ?





or this


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> I will be buying everything from my local hardware store. What else do I need besides the "sucker" ? You guys will have to walk me through



You'll need some good quality solder (if you don't have any), and a small metal file will help smooth off the edges at the tip of the pins when you're done. And quite honestly, the Soldapullt is the only plunger-type sucker I've used that works. I've tried probably a half-dozen different ones over the years and frankly they all sucked....or _didn't_ suck, in this case.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

I use liquid rosin to help cleanse the inside of the pins, rosin flux. Never use acid flux in electronics unless you are trying for tiny little batteries.😺


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> You'll need some good quality solder (if you don't have any), and a small metal file will help smooth off the edges at the tip of the pins when you're done. And quite honestly, the Soldapullt is the only plunger-type sucker I've used that works. I've tried probably a half-dozen different ones over the years and frankly they all sucked....or _didn't_ suck, in this case.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



I will not be able to find exactly those in my area but I'll do my best to pick up the highest quality pump I can find and solder.
But how does the process work exactly ? Do I need to heat and quickly suck with the pump ?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I will not be able to find exactly those in my area but I'll do my best to pick up the highest quality pump I can find and solder.
> But how does the process work exactly ? Do I need to heat and quickly suck with the pump ?


Yes


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Yes



I will extract all the "old" solder that's on there until I see inside of the pin right ? I can see that some pins even on some other tubes have a little hole opening on the tip the pins.
And then apply a new solder ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> I will extract all the "old" solder that's on there until I see inside of the pin right ? I can see that some pins even on some other tubes have a little hole opening on the tip the pins.
> And then apply a new solder ?


You can, yes.


With solder removed, and after soldering. I usually keep the tube parallel with the work surface when doing the soldering. You can slide small diameter solder inside each pin before applying heat, if not capillary action will draw it in anyway but you may have a bit more cleanup. If you were in the US I would offer to fix them for you free as I have with many other folks on here. 

Rosin core solder can often work if you do not find liquid rosin flux, since it is not easy to see what is truly happening inside each pin, I do not like to take chances and I do not want to have to do the process over again.

https://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge Base/Hand Soldering Short Course.pdf

There is plenty of info out there on soldering, Kester used to do a six week live soldering course, I was fortunate to go through that but then I have taught soldering and electronics.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> You can, yes.
> 
> With solder removed, and after soldering. I usually keep the tube parallel with the work surface when doing the soldering. You can slide small diameter solder inside each pin before applying heat, if not capillary action will draw it in anyway but you may have a bit more cleanup. If you were in the US I would offer to fix them for you free as I have with many other folks on here.


Looks so clean. Thank you for the offering but yeah unfortunately there is a slight 5,155 miles distance in a straight line 
I'll need to improvise something to hold the tubes and last but not least I hope my small iron is up to the task of melting whatever is left on the pins.

Are the pins empty on the inside ? Should I also heat the enitre pin and not only the tip ? I'm still trying to figure out the details. How deep does the rabbit hole go inside the pin ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Looks so clean. Thank you for the offering but yeah unfortunately there is a slight 5,155 miles distance in a straight line
> I'll need to improvise something to hold the tubes and last but not least I hope my small iron is up to the task of melting whatever is left on the pins.
> 
> Are the pins empty on the inside ? Should I also heat the enitre pin and not only the tip ? I'm still trying to figure out the details. How deep does the rabbit hole go inside the pin ?


Generally factory solder is often just toward the pin end but I like to extend it further into the pin. If you get solder say 7 mm into the pin you are fine, just try not to angle the tube down so the solder flows all the way through.  You can just heat the tip of the pin.

You do a makeshift vise using kitchen tongs.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CSTLCS...&pd_rd_r=bffb05d4-8d2b-46e0-825d-a3ede6e626ea

Just wrap each end with silicone tape or even electrical tape, use a few rubber bands to give enough pressure to keep the jaws shut. Place the handles inside a couple bricks or blocks of wood and use whatever you have to apply pressure, a bungee cord does a great job.

Ok time for me to face the frozen tundra that is my home now but I should be around later.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Generally factory solder is often just toward the pin end but I like to extend it further into the pin. If you get solder say 7 mm into the pin you are fine, just try not to angle the tube down so the solder flows all the way through.  You can just heat the tip of the pin.
> 
> You do a makeshift vise using kitchen tongs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the explanations. I'll grab all I need and see what I can pull off


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> If you were in the US I would offer to fix them for you free as I have with many other folks on here.



A YouTube video demonstrating the process and as many cats as there are available would be great, but if video-blogging is not your thing that also is understandable .


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> A YouTube video demonstrating the process and as many cats as there are available would be great, but if video-blogging is not your thing that also is understandable .


I may work on that. Woodstock would require equal time though.


----------



## adamus

L0rdGwyn said:


> Speaking of future designs...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they arent gapped for any DC, so you would need to parafeed them. but.... that cap can be small and premium. You would be right to question the gains over the the current caps you have in... but could you impendance match for all headphones. Thats the biggey


----------



## L0rdGwyn

adamus said:


> they arent gapped for any DC, so you would need to parafeed them. but.... that cap can be small and premium. You would be right to question the gains over the the current caps you have in... but could you impendance match for all headphones. Thats the biggey



Yes with multiple taps, it could be done, but a tight squeeze...I think I will leave it as is for now, but thank you for the idea.  You have inspired me @adamus , I might experiment with OPT that are gapped for >100mA on the primary to load the cathode, something to think about in a future amplifier, likely with a different tube in the cathode follower position.  I have seen this with some speaker amplifiers, but obeying Vhk of the cathode follower can become an issue at high voltage swings, not so much a problem for headphone amplifier.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2021)

Straight out of the box with some excellent tubes and headphones I am pretty shocked  at the SQ, hum, blooming, volume pot tracking etc. I might keep the blue LED on the front. 🙀

Um I do like the shape of the transformer cover.    Oh and I have never heard any difference in IEC sockets so that might stay. I tried Focal Utopias, a Tung Sol 6080, and a Tung Sol BGRP trying to be as fair as possible.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Looks so clean. Thank you for the offering but yeah unfortunately there is a slight 5,155 miles distance in a straight line
> I'll need to improvise something to hold the tubes and last but not least I hope my small iron is up to the task of melting whatever is left on the pins.
> 
> Are the pins empty on the inside ? Should I also heat the enitre pin and not only the tip ? I'm still trying to figure out the details. How deep does the rabbit hole go inside the pin ?



The wire from each element inside the tube comes all the way down to the tip of the pin.  When the tube was made, those wires stuck out of the end of the pins a bit, and were then either trimmed flush with the pin's end and soldered, or soldered and then trimmed.  So as @Paladin79 noted, you just need to get enough solder in there to be sure the wire is electrically and solidly mated to the pin.  You need a soldering iron that is capable of at least 600 degrees at the tip, and preferably higher (like 750 - 800).  You can do more damage with too little heat (and having to apply it for too long) than a higher heat that will get things to the right temperature for the solder to melt more quickly.  Kind of like a dull knife being more dangerous than a sharp knife (only different).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Straight out of the box with some excellent tubes and headphones I am pretty shocked  at the SQ, hum, blooming, volume pot tracking etc. I might keep the blue LED on the front. 🙀
> 
> Um I do like the shape of the transformer cover.    Oh and I have never heard any difference in IEC sockets so that might stay. I tried Focal Utopias, a Tung Sol 6080, and a Tung Sol BGRP trying to be as fair as possible.



Well, the biggest problem is pretty obvious. You have it on a cherry shelf, and we all know that maple sounds better.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, the biggest problem is pretty obvious. You have it on a cherry shelf, and we all know that maple sounds better.



Hmm you could be right, now if you tell me you loved it, out of the box, you might as well send the Incubus back since it is wasted on you.😺😺


----------



## qingcai

SWIN said:


> You can see the yellow/green earth cable sticking out just close to the blue disc capacitors - the yellow/green goes from the mains earth input straight to that point.
> And that is the main earth point of this circuit, and everything is earthed to the earth pin on the mains socket.
> 
> Yes it is a bit of a mixed mess, but generally works, please note than only two cables goes to the phones socket, both channels are earthed thru the chassis, no separate earth lead.
> ...



still not see clearly about how virtual zero connected.  should be looks like this ?


----------



## Paladin79

Providing more cabinet room can look like this:







Two inch and three inch additions, naturally the bottom plates would be removed and additional ventilation would be provided.  I believe @bcowen is looking for the three inch extension in tiger maple with mitered corners and at least one spline per corner. My cabinet will look nothing like this, most likely only the top plate will be visible.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @bcowen is looking for the three inch extension in tiger maple with mitered corners and at least one spline per corner.



He is soooooo high maintenance!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> He is soooooo high maintenance!


I know, here is his license plate.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> still not see clearly about how virtual zero connected.  should be looks like this ?



Here read this post, it is addressing the same issue: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16182719

I really hope the designer hasn't been telling people their tubes are defective when it is the amp.  It's very disappointing that so many of these have been sold with this issue in place.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> He is soooooo high maintenance!



Yes, I am.  And soooooo worth it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know, here is his license plate.



LOL!  Someone tried to copy my plate...mine has a Carolina Blue background.


----------



## Galapac (Feb 18, 2021)




----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 18, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here read this post, it is addressing the same issue: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16182719
> 
> I really hope the designer hasn't been telling people their tubes are defective when it is the amp.  It's very disappointing that so many of these have been sold with this issue in place.


Just to make sure, it's fine if I put two 200 ohm resistors in parallel on each heater pad if I don't have any 100 ohms at my disposal? I'm almost done with my extremely long rebuild, just need to put the heaters back in, those resistors for the center tap, and to wire the pot.

Edit to add: since I'm removing the Fitz mod at the same time, I'll be able to speak a little bit to the hum reduction by comparison.


----------



## adamus

DeweyCH said:


> Just to make sure, it's fine if I put two 200 ohm resistors in parallel on each heater pad if I don't have any 100 ohms at my disposal? I'm almost done with my extremely long rebuild, just need to put the heaters back in, those resistors for the center tap, and to wire the pot.
> 
> Edit to add: since I'm removing the Fitz mod at the same time, I'll be able to speak a little bit to the hum reduction by comparison.


200ohm will be fine if the wattage is ok, may not need to parallel. i used 220r back in the day


----------



## adamus

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/heater.html


----------



## DeweyCH

adamus said:


> http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/heater.html


Super helpful, thanks! I'll probably then just use one each of my 200ohm 1w resistors rather than paralleling.


----------



## Deceneu808

Before and after. Still won't work properly.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Before and after. Still won't work properly.


Sorry to hear that, not much to lose if you heat them again and apply more solder.


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here read this post, it is addressing the same issue: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16182719
> 
> I really hope the designer hasn't been telling people their tubes are defective when it is the amp.  It's very disappointing that so many of these have been sold with this issue in place.


thanks for reply, I have not disassembly the whole amp yet. so not sure about the LED pcb schema and don't understand why when connect like your addressed . why need 2x2k resisters paralleled with exists on the led PCB.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry to hear that, not much to lose if you heat them again and apply more solder.


Yeah I'll apply a little more and see what happens. If that doesn't do it I'll probably donate them or something.


----------



## Paladin79

I do not mind helping with some things.


Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I'll apply a little more and see what happens. If that doesn't do it I'll probably donate them or something.


I replaced the solder in some very old tubes before and while solder can go all the way around a wire, it does not mean you have good contact. I used flux a few times and finally it worked.


----------



## qingcai

is the darkvoice power same as bottle crack ?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Someone tried to copy my plate...mine has a Carolina Blue background.


fixed it.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I do not mind helping with some things.
> 
> I replaced the solder in some very old tubes before and while solder can go all the way around a wire, it does not mean you have good contact. I used flux a few times and finally it worked.


Redid a tube and it still won't work. I've gone back to my trusty Mullard for now. Want a pair of 5998s for free ? Get them working and they are yours


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Redid a tube and it still won't work. I've gone back to my trusty Mullard for now. Who wants a pair of 5998s for free ? Get them working and they are yours


I would see what I can do. Find out what shipping might be to the US and I will cover it if not too expensive.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> fixed it.


You got the color right, Duke blue is darker and looks less like the color of a baby blanket.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I would see what I can do. Find out what shipping might be to the US and I will cover it if not too expensive.


I recently ordered from Hart Audio Cables from US with UPS Worldwide Expedite and it was 49.71 for an envelope with some cables. Can't say the same with a box of tubes. I could go old school through mail but the morons at my post office might lose the package lmao. I'll look in to it


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I recently ordered from Hart Audio Cables from US with UPS Worldwide Expedite and it was 49.71 for an envelope with some cables. Can't say the same with a box of tubes. I could go old school through mail but the morons at my post office might lose the package lmao. I'll look in to it


Thanks, I have some horror stories here involving our mail as well.

Since you already purchased them I hate to see you go to more expense.  I am in no rush and hopefully UPS has some lower rates, expedited shipping can get pricey.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks, I have some horror stories here involving our mail as well.
> 
> Since you already purchased them I hate to see you go to more expense.  I am in no rush and hopefully UPS has some lower rates, expedited shipping can get pricey.


I'll give one more try this weekend to fix them and if no success I'll decide what to do with them. Thanks for all the help


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> Just to make sure, it's fine if I put two 200 ohm resistors in parallel on each heater pad if I don't have any 100 ohms at my disposal? I'm almost done with my extremely long rebuild, just need to put the heaters back in, those resistors for the center tap, and to wire the pot.
> 
> Edit to add: since I'm removing the Fitz mod at the same time, I'll be able to speak a little bit to the hum reduction by comparison.



As @adamus said, just use a pair of 200ohm instead of 100ohm, will work just fine.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> thanks for reply, I have not disassembly the whole amp yet. so not sure about the LED pcb schema and don't understand why when connect like your addressed . why need 2x2k resisters paralleled with exists on the led PCB.



The resistors on the PCB are current limiting resistors.  When the heater supply is balanced, the voltage becomes 3.15V between either leg and ground, it is cut in half.  Thus the current limiting resistance needs to be reduced to account for the reduced voltage or the LED will not light.  You can change the first of the two 2K resistors to 1K, or just parallel a second 2K.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> You got the color right, Duke blue is darker and looks less like the color of a baby blanket.



I'm originally from Virginia so I am very cognizant of the Blue Devils/Tar Heels rivalry.  I myself am a Hokie, but had friends at both campuses and enjoyed some great basketball games over the years there.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


>



ROFL!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'm originally from Virginia so I am very cognizant of the Blue Devils/Tar Heels rivalry.  I myself am a Hokie, but had friends at both campuses and enjoyed some great basketball games over the years there.



My son lives in Virginia, across from DC


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> fixed it.



LOL!!!


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> The resistors on the PCB are current limiting resistors.  When the heater supply is balanced, the voltage becomes 3.15V between either leg and ground, it is cut in half.  Thus the current limiting resistance needs to be reduced to account for the reduced voltage or the LED will not light.  You can change the first of the two 2K resistors to 1K, or just parallel a second 2K.


looks like the lcd part voltage is not affect by the center tap.


----------



## Jbucla2005 (Feb 18, 2021)

I just got a DV and have found some tubes that don’t hum with headphones. The problem I’ve really been unable to fix is the hum from the output on the back of the unit. Any tips to eliminate the buzz I‘m hearing when using it as a preamp? Thanks.


----------



## DeweyCH

So so so close to done... everything is wired up, I closed it up, put the stock tubes in (in case something exploded) and fired it up. It works but there's a bit of a buzz in the right channel (low and irrespective of volume) and the volume pot only seems to send the left channel up and down. I assume I miswired the pot... I'll try that last touch again tomorrow. For now it's nice that everything seems to have come more or less together, though, and it was refreshing to actually hear something out of it:






And I am well aware that my soldering skills are crap. Any critical commentary is likely extremely warranted.


----------



## qingcai

DeweyCH said:


> So so so close to done... everything is wired up, I closed it up, put the stock tubes in (in case something exploded) and fired it up. It works but there's a bit of a buzz in the right channel (low and irrespective of volume) and the volume pot only seems to send the left channel up and down. I assume I miswired the pot... I'll try that last touch again tomorrow. For now it's nice that everything seems to have come more or less together, though, and it was refreshing to actually hear something out of it:
> 
> 
> 
> And I am well aware that my soldering skills are crap. Any critical commentary is likely extremely warranted.


will the resister get too hot between two black capacitors? it looks like 1/8watt. the original is mark 1watt 200ohm


----------



## DeweyCH

qingcai said:


> will the resister get too hot between two black capacitors? it looks like 1/8watt. the original is mark 1watt 200ohm


Nah, they're 1 watt. These.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 19, 2021)

Should I spray some contact cleaner spray inside the pin to eliminate a bad contact inside the pin ?




Could the problem be elsewhere ? All my other tubes are working properly although I found that even my Mullard 6080 has some seating issues, if I move it just the slightest left channel cuts out completely. Could it be the socket inside the DV ?


----------



## qingcai

therremans said:


> This is my current favorite setup. I find the 7193 (NU specifically) to be a very detailed and dynamic tube. A little bit of low end is sacrificed when comparing to a tube like the Ken Rad VT231. But the soundstage and instrument separation is greatly improved. What’s also great is that the 7193s are some of the cheapest tubes that I own. I love my 6J5Gs and 6F8Gs...but the 7193 seem to mostly outperform them on my setup.
> 
> Power: Unbranded Tung-sol 5998
> Pre: National Union JAN-CNU 7193 (yr. 1943)
> ...


the cutoff of the wire to preamp out does not make any sense.


----------



## qingcai

therremans said:


> *Output cap replacement*
> 
> Remove the output PCB board. Start by de-soldering the green points shown, then unscrew the four screws in each corner. I used these caps - Vishay MKP1839 (10uf) x 8, Vishay MKP1839 (.1uf) x 8
> 
> ...


what is this wire? is middle of the firament or something else?


----------



## qingcai

therremans said:


> I have had my blue LED covered with black wire tape since about the first week I owned the Darkvoice. My amp is positioned on top of a studio monitor due to lack of space and the blue LED would shine right at my eyes.
> 
> Here I swapped it out with a spare dim red LED I had from doing the LED biasing mod..
> 
> ...


looks like one of the resister is not connected to any where?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Should I spray some contact cleaner spray inside the pin to eliminate a bad contact inside the pin ?
> 
> 
> Could the problem be elsewhere ? All my other tubes are working properly although I found that even my Mullard 6080 has some seating issues, if I move it just the slightest left channel cuts out completely. Could it be the socket inside the DV ?


It is always possible that you have a dirty socket pin, if you have some high percentage isopropyl alcohol, not rubbing alcohol you can use that and whatever small brush or cotton swap you happen to have. Be sure the amp is unplugged and give it a couple hours to dry after cleaning each pin.  It never hurts to go over the tube pins as well but I figure you had done that already.    I try not to take any advice from @bcowen but he is a good source of info on pin and socket cleaning.


----------



## adamus

check solder joints on the socket itself. It could be a dirty pin / socket (I use a needle file for sockets....its well worn though so not too rough)

If all that fails... you may need to replace the socket.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 19, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> It is always possible that you have a dirty socket pin, if you have some high percentage isopropyl alcohol, not rubbing alcohol you can use that and whatever small brush or cotton swap you happen to have. Be sure the amp is unplugged and give it a couple hours to dry after cleaning each pin.  It never hurts to go over the tube pins as well but I figure you had done that already.    I try not to take any advice from @bcowen but he is a good source of info on pin and socket cleaning.


Yeah I give up. Kind of killed my hype for high end tubes. Although I only paid 150$ for the pair I'm hesitant to buy expensive tubes again. How's the RCA 6AS7G ? I see there are two versions with white labels and orange labels 

Edit : I've tried all other 4 power tubes I own and they all work fine so it's not the sockets fault


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Should I spray some contact cleaner spray inside the pin to eliminate a bad contact inside the pin ?
> 
> 
> Could the problem be elsewhere ? All my other tubes are working properly although I found that even my Mullard 6080 has some seating issues, if I move it just the slightest left channel cuts out completely. Could it be the socket inside the DV ?



A dirty or loose socket contact could definitely be causing the problem.  As @Paladin79 suggested, cleaning them with isopropyl alcohol is easy and cheap (I use a pipe cleaner dipped in alcohol for octal sockets).  It's also possible that one or more of the socket contacts is loose, especially if you've done a lot of tube rolling.  Fairly easy to retighten them by inserting a sharp pointed object into the socket hole and gently prying the metal portion(s) back closer to each other.  I use what's in the link below, but any finely pointed object that allows you to insert it between the metal contacts and the socket base material will work.  Again, be sure the amp is unplugged and let sit for at least 15 minutes (to let the capacitors discharge) before you do this.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I give up. Kind of killed my hype for high end tubes. Although I only paid 150$ for the pair I'm hesitant to buy expensive tubes again. How's the RCA 6AS7G ? I see there are two versions with white labels and orange labels
> 
> Edit : I've tried all other 4 power tubes I own and they all work fine so it's not the sockets fault


I have an orange label RCA 6AS7G. It's a nice tube. Nothing crazy amazing, but certainly a worthwhile one.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> A dirty or loose socket contact could definitely be causing the problem.  As @Paladin79 suggested, cleaning them with isopropyl alcohol is easy and cheap (I use a pipe cleaner dipped in alcohol for octal sockets).  It's also possible that one or more of the socket contacts is loose, especially if you've done a lot of tube rolling.  Fairly easy to retighten them by inserting a sharp pointed object into the socket hole and gently prying the metal portion(s) back closer to each other.  I use what's in the link below, but any finely pointed object that allows you to insert it between the metal contacts and the socket base material will work.  Again, be sure the amp is unplugged and let sit for at least 15 minutes (to let the capacitors discharge) before you do this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I'll give it a go but I doubt it's that. Also worth mentioning or asking really. If I shake the tube slightly it has some ringing noise although it seems fine up on fine inspection inside. The bottom plastic skirt on one of them moves about a few centimeters if I rotate it. Is it normal ? I'm starting to think I have been bamboozled but they kind of worked at first so not sure lmao


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> I have an orange label RCA 6AS7G. It's a nice tube. Nothing crazy amazing, but certainly a worthwhile one.


Any other recommendations ? Something better than the 6080 Mullard and less expensive than the 5998. I like the Mullards but they are too energetic and in your face sometimes like someone is drilling sound in to your ears lol


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> Any other recommendations ? Something better than the 6080 Mullard and less expensive than the 5998. I like the Mullards but they are too energetic and in your face sometimes like someone is drilling sound in to your ears lol


You can try a pair of A2293s in an adapter. I’ve run that with a couple of GEC tubes and it’s pretty great.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Any other recommendations ? Something better than the 6080 Mullard and less expensive than the 5998. I like the Mullards but they are too energetic and in your face sometimes like someone is drilling sound in to your ears lol


If you are running a stock Darkvoice, it may not be the Mullards lol.  

I once had a thought of modifying Darkvoices and adding additional cabinets but having spoken to my lawyer, I need to stay away from that. Even offering mod info is not something I should be doing because of liability.  All it would take is one novice builder to get badly shocked and things could get ugly. Look at the warnings that BH Crack gives with its amps sometimes lol, they are there for a reason.   That amp is begging to be modified.


----------



## DeweyCH

DeweyCH said:


> So so so close to done... everything is wired up, I closed it up, put the stock tubes in (in case something exploded) and fired it up. It works but there's a bit of a buzz in the right channel (low and irrespective of volume) and the volume pot only seems to send the left channel up and down. I assume I miswired the pot... I'll try that last touch again tomorrow. For now it's nice that everything seems to have come more or less together, though, and it was refreshing to actually hear something out of it:
> 
> 
> 
> And I am well aware that my soldering skills are crap. Any critical commentary is likely extremely warranted.


Oh for the love of pete. I see the problem, the wiper to driver tube wire isn’t soldered in on the right channel. ***.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> If you are running a stock Darkvoice, it may not be the Mullards lol.
> 
> I once had a thought of modifying Darkvoices and adding additional cabinets but having spoken to my lawyer, I need to stay away from that. Even offering mod info is not something I should be doing because of liability.  All it would take is one novice builder to get badly shocked and things could get ugly. Look at the warnings that BH Crack gives with its amps sometimes lol, they are there for a reason.   That amp is begging to be modified.


Just add to your signature “all mods are done at your own risk and it is your responsibility to ensure you are aware of and following all safety best practices for electronics work.” Make sure you’re letting the idiots (read: people like me) know that you’re not liable for anything we do that causes us injury due to unforeseen by you massive gaps in our knowledge.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> If you are running a stock Darkvoice, it may not be the Mullards lol.
> 
> I once had a thought of modifying Darkvoices and adding additional cabinets but having spoken to my lawyer, I need to stay away from that. Even offering mod info is not something I should be doing because of liability.  All it would take is one novice builder to get badly shocked and things could get ugly. Look at the warnings that BH Crack gives with its amps sometimes lol, they are there for a reason.   That amp is begging to be modified.


I would feel more comfortable just buying a better amp than modify this one. With my skills I'm doomed to break it


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> I would feel more comfortable just buying a better amp than modify this one. With my skills I'm doomed to break it


Have you contacted the seller of the 5998s?


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> I would feel more comfortable just buying a better amp than modify this one. With my skills I'm doomed to break it


Just look through my posting history in this thread. If I can do an ugly yet working set of upgrades on this literally anyone over the age of six can.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Have you contacted the seller of the 5998s?


Yes but to what end. He said they worked fine for him. They also worked fine for me then they didn't. Then they worked again and now they don't again if that makes sense...


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> Just look through my posting history in this thread. If I can do an ugly yet working set of upgrades on this literally anyone over the age of six can.


How would a 3 year old manage ?


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes but to what end. He said they worked fine for him. They also worked fine for me then they didn't. Then they worked again and now they don't again if that makes sense...


Sometimes tubes seem to test okay but have issues with use. You’ve ran into some bad luck. So I take it he didn’t offer any return policy? Thats what I should have asked. The chances of both 5998s to die at the same time is rare but also your issues to happening for both tubes doesn’t add up to me either.


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> How would a 3 year old manage ?


More or less like that horse.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> If you are running a stock Darkvoice, it may not be the Mullards lol.
> 
> I once had a thought of modifying Darkvoices and adding additional cabinets but having spoken to my lawyer, I need to stay away from that. Even offering mod info is not something I should be doing because of liability.  All it would take is one novice builder to get badly shocked and things could get ugly. Look at the warnings that BH Crack gives with its amps sometimes lol, they are there for a reason.   That amp is begging to be modified.



Uh oh, guess I better call my lawyer!  Don't get electrocuted guys.

I'll be sending @Galapac 's DarkVoice back this weekend.  Will check out his impressions but will be stepping away from this thread, PM me if you have DIY questions, think that's how I ended up here in the first place


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh for the love of pete. I see the problem, the wiper to driver tube wire isn’t soldered in on the right channel. ***.



LOL!  Glad *you* can see that.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Just add to your signature “all mods are done at your own risk and it is your responsibility to ensure you are aware of and following all safety best practices for electronics work.” Make sure you’re letting the idiots (read: people like me) know that you’re not liable for anything we do that causes us injury due to unforeseen by you massive gaps in our knowledge.


Now there is a thought. Unfortunately my company name is listed here and I am pretty easy to track down where others are not so easy.   Even as far as knowing what one is doing, I have seen experienced technicians get knocked out of metal chairs after 25kv hit them, and they knew better lol. There are plenty of people offering advice here but I best not join in other than with tube soldering etc.


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> Uh oh, guess I better call my lawyer!  Don't get electrocuted guys.
> 
> I'll be sending @Galapac 's DarkVoice back this weekend.  Will check out his impressions but will be stepping away from this thread, PM me if you have DIY questions, think that's how I ended up here in the first place


My lawyer was also concerned about patent violations but I have a feeling the Chinese already did that lol. I think with the metal cabinet no one is going to burn their house down but smoke damage is no fun to deal with, I experienced it in two rental properties I own.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Just add to your signature “all mods are done at your own risk and it is your responsibility to ensure you are aware of and following all safety best practices for electronics work.” Make sure you’re letting the idiots (read: people like me) know that you’re not liable for anything we do that causes us injury due to unforeseen by you massive gaps in our knowledge.



Unfortunately, people can't be held accountable for their own epic stupidity these days. Just look up the women who is suing because she put Gorilla Glue in her hair


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Unfortunately, people can't be held accountable for their own epic stupidity these days. Just look up the women who is suing because she put Gorilla Glue in her hair


It is one thing to sue...another to be awarded damages for “pain & suffering”. Then, accountability is lost. Speaking of which, is the Darwinian survival of the fittest being displaced by extinction of the dumbest?...


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Unfortunately, people can't be held accountable for their own epic stupidity these days. Just look up the women who is suing because she put Gorilla Glue in her hair


Ladders have a long list of warnings because of cases brought when ladders fell over. 
In all seriousness though, if someone reads one mod, and he is new to any electronics, will he know to read back and see to be sure to unplug the power cord? Will he know .1-.2 amps under the right circumstances can kill you? Higher voltage overcomes skin resistance more easily but current kills.


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Unfortunately, people can't be held accountable for their own epic stupidity these days. Just look up the women who is suing because she put Gorilla Glue in her hair


She’s not suing anyone. She raised a gofundme.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> She’s not suing anyone. She raised a gofundme.


So who wins the density contest? The GGer or the “gofundme” contributor(s)?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Ladders have a long list of warnings because of cases brought when ladders fell over.
> In all seriousness though, if someone reads one mod, and he is new to any electronics, will he know to read back and see to be sure to unplug the power cord? Will he know .1-.2 amps under the right circumstances can kill you? Higher voltage overcomes skin resistance more easily but current kills.


Your first sentence reminds me of a Home & Garden show a few years ago that my wife and I attended. Werner was doing a ladder demonstration (regular and extendable) and the rep said: “Rule #1, set your ladder on a flat surface”. A fellow, right by us, stroked his beard and muttered to his wife: “good idea....good idea....”


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> So who wins the density contest? The GGer or the “gofundme” contributor(s)?


I mean, I find it hard to call people who contribute to help someone out dense. Even if the person needs help because they did something dumb.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> She’s not suing anyone. She raised a gofundme.


Last I read she was planning to sue Gorilla because there was no specific warning on the can to *not* spray it in your hair.  Now assuming she finds a hungry enough (and stupid enough) attorney to take on the case, and assuming it gets thrown out as frivolous very early on, Gorilla is still out thousands of $$ in legal expenses just to defend themselves.  Last time I did something dumb my only thought was "Damn, that was stupid," not "Gee, I need to sue someone."  Maybe I should go sue the manufacturer of my hammer 'cause I popped my thumb with it a couple weeks back. It really hurt, and there isn't a single warning *anywhere* on it that specifically tells me not to hit my thumb with it.  My pain and suffering should be worth millions.


----------



## DeweyCH

Question, how tough is it to fry one of these dact attenuators? I’m starting to think that’s my issue since I soldered and desoldered it a handful of times trying to get a good pin setup.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Last I read she was planning to sue Gorilla because there was no specific warning on the can to *not* spray it in your hair.  Now assuming she finds a hungry enough (and stupid enough) attorney to take on the case, and assuming it gets thrown out as frivolous very early on, Gorilla is still out thousands of $$ in legal expenses just to defend themselves.  Last time I did something dumb my only thought was "Damn, that was stupid," not "Gee, I need to sue someone."  Maybe I should go sue the manufacturer of my hammer 'cause I popped my thumb with it a couple weeks back. It really hurt, and there isn't a single warning *anywhere* on it that specifically tells me not to hit my thumb with it.  My pain and suffering should be worth millions.


The beauty of hitting ones self with a hammer is, it feels so good when you stop doing it.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Last I read she was planning to sue Gorilla because there was no specific warning on the can to *not* spray it in your hair.  Now assuming she finds a hungry enough (and stupid enough) attorney to take on the case, and assuming it gets thrown out as frivolous very early on, Gorilla is still out thousands of $$ in legal expenses just to defend themselves.  Last time I did something dumb my only thought was "Damn, that was stupid," not "Gee, I need to sue someone."  Maybe I should go sue the manufacturer of my hammer 'cause I popped my thumb with it a couple weeks back. It really hurt, and there isn't a single warning *anywhere* on it that specifically tells me not to hit my thumb with it.  My pain and suffering should be worth millions.


Have a few libations, if you get hammered everything looks like a nail....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> The beauty of hitting ones self with a hammer is, it feels so good when you stop doing it.


Is that why MC Hammer sang “U Can’t Touch This”.....?.....


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 19, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Question, how tough is it to fry one of these dact attenuators? I’m starting to think that’s my issue since I soldered and desoldered it a handful of times trying to get a good pin setup.


Yeah that seems to be it. Getting normal resistance on one channel and basically none on the other. Luckily I have a 20k Alps pot that will do nicely. No PCB, no shunt, just out with the busted and in with the not busted. And the old Alps pot I broke the pin on actually seems to work just fine, but it needs the shunt and I’m tired of working on this. I want to actually get back to the point of this thread and try different tubes in it.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> ...I want to actually get back to the point of this thread and try different tubes in it.



That sounds almost boring in comparison.  LOL!!


----------



## therremans

I have some spare alps if any needs, 20, 50 and 100k


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That sounds almost boring in comparison.  LOL!!


Somewhat lower chance I’ll kill myself with electricity and force my wife to sue everyone on this thread


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Somewhat lower chance I’ll kill myself with electricity and force my wife to sue everyone on this thread


@bcowen, I can help her with his name and address. His house is painted a baby blue and easy to spot by the arresting officers. 😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen, I can help her with his name and address. His house is painted a baby blue and easy to spot by the arresting officers. 😺



I have no idea what you're talking about.  I live in a cardboard box that matches my Incubus chassis.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I have some spare alps if any needs, 20, 50 and 100k


Very generous of you!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about.  I live in a cardboard box that matches my Incubus chassis.


What about the vehicle, on the driveway, with the baby blue licence plate?...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 20, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> What about the vehicle, on the driveway, with the baby blue licence plate?...


I want to say much of his car is baby blue as well.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say much of his car is baby blue as well.


Clearly not a case of “High Maintenance”: no plate...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 20, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Clearly not a case of “High Maintenance”: no plate...


I believe his car just needs a house number, the cardboard box is in the back.

This morning I am listening to a favorite 1956 Melz solid plate and Tung Sol 5998.  Not in a DV though, I will have to do some serious changes first.

Music of choice this morn, Rachel Price from Lake Street Dive with Chris Thile. Doing a Tom Waits song.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Back one more time, I thought I was done, was doing some final checks on the DarkVoice modifications this morning, decided to make some last minute changes. I added 1K grid stoppers to the 6SN7 (there are no grid stoppers in the original design), as well as startup protection diodes from grid to cathode of the output tube. This prevents arcing on startup before the power tube has started conducting, the diodes are out of the circuit once the grid goes negative relative to the cathode. I also derated the mains primary fuse to 0.75A, was 1A originally.

Here is the final, final circuit.



Today, it will be stress tested on my switchable headphone dummy load. If all checks out, it will be shipped back Monday, and that will be that, case closed!


----------



## qingcai

I have done my first part to remove hum, refer to : all of previous posts(I have read them all):

1, below link method works best, I have tried connect the virtual center tap to ground(A) or virtual central tap via a capacitor(B),  method A still has little bit hum(I keep the amp power on and A/B tested many times), and I tried the turned the volume knob from 0 to max, the hum exists all the time, that mean the 50hz is not from amplify stage. if only disconnect the led PCB to ground, everything works fine(LED still light), just little bit other noise which is better than central tap directly to ground.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-120#post-14628672
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-120#post-14630773

2, no need to change anything on LED PCB.

3, I tried the Fitz mod, and LED mod, and changed it back to original. 

I run tung-sol 6sn7 gtb tube now, it's deadly quiet as the origin tube. 

thanks for helping guys


----------



## qingcai

the output capacitor should be around 220uf if the headphone is 32ohm, to get  around 22hz roller off.  so thinking about parallel a 220uf.


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> the output capacitor should be around 220uf if the headphone is 32ohm, to get  around 22hz roller off.  so thinking about parallel a 220uf.


Yikes, why? Oh yeah $200 amp, maybe Beats? Lol 
I will go another direction.😺


----------



## JKDJedi

qingcai said:


> I have done my first part to remove hum, refer to : all of previous posts(I have read them all):
> 
> 1, below link method works best, I have tried connect the virtual center tap to ground(A) or virtual central tap via a capacitor(B),  method A still has little bit hum(I keep the amp power on and A/B tested many times), and I tried the turned the volume knob from 0 to max, the hum exists all the time, that mean the 50hz is not from amplify stage. if only disconnect the led PCB to ground, everything works fine(LED still light), just little bit other noise which is better than central tap directly to ground.
> 
> ...


If I only read that far back!!! No wait..what just happened here, serioulsy..you mean this whole time just two little resistors!?


----------



## qingcai

JKDJedi said:


> If I only read that far back!!! No wait..what just happened here, serioulsy..you mean this whole time just two little resistors!?


it about fix problem not how many stuff you put in.


----------



## Paladin79

There is a lot more to fix than hum. When I finish it will not sound like an AM radio playing from the bottom of a barrel and the volume pot will track properly and the Pre-amp out will be viable. 😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There is a lot more to fix than hum. When I finish it will not sound like an AM radio playing from the bottom of a barrel and the volume pot will track properly and the Pre-amp out will be viable. 😺



Mine sounded like an FM radio.  You must have gotten a bad sample.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Mine sounded like an FM radio.  You must have gotten a bad sample.


After I got the DV from Drop they asked me to give a glorious review of the amp, I nearly spit up my occasional adult beverage. It reminded me of a time when I would get photos of female card partners from all over the world and I was not sure how to respond. My wife always told me to say they have pretty eyes or some such. I told one Canadian lady that she was standing in front of an amazing looking hockey rink.😺 I felt like saying Dark Voice did a wonderful job of spelling its name correctly and leaving it at that. Maybe nice weight?😼


----------



## bcowen (Feb 20, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> After I got the DV from Drop they asked me to give a glorious review of the amp, I nearly spit up my occasional adult beverage. It reminded me of a time when I would get photos of female card partners from all over the world and I was not sure how to respond. My wife always told me to say they have pretty eyes or some such. I told one Canadian lady that she was standing in front of an amazing looking hockey rink.😺 I felt like saying Dark Voice did a wonderful job of spelling its name correctly and leaving it at that. Maybe nice weight?😼


Your ears are spoiled.

Here, let me help you out with the review:

1) It was cheap
2) It amplifies
3) It was cheap
4) It sounds better than solid state (insert brand/model of choice here...any will work)
5) It was cheap
6) It was packaged adequately
7) It was cheap
8) If my house burned down tomorrow, it would be the least of my losses (except the GE tubes)
9) It was cheap

Feel free to copy and paste....


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> There is a lot more to fix than hum. When I finish it will not sound like an AM radio playing from the bottom of a barrel and the volume pot will track properly and the Pre-amp out will be viable. 😺


do don't over mod it, dont put extra components into the signal path.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> There is a lot more to fix than hum. When I finish it will not sound like an AM radio playing from the bottom of a barrel and the volume pot will track properly and the Pre-amp out will be viable. 😺


But does it pick up WOWO?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Your ears are spoiled.
> 
> Here, let me help you out with the review:
> 
> ...


  10) The whole is less than the sum of its parts.
  11) ...guess...


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> do don't over mod it, dont put extra components into the signal path.


Um, I do design tube amps, I believe I can get by.  

 My latest design was to win a bet after a bucket of strange parts were handed to me including Russian transmitter tubes. I called the amp the Cowen until the bet was over and I could improve the amp, now it it the Gemini Regna. With modification I can use Telefunken LS50 tubes of WW2 vintage. 

My DV mod will be something I can listen to with Focal Utopias and be happy but that is just me. I looked at the schematic and checked the signal out, now I just need to decide what wood to use for the cabinet.  I want extra room because I will be using a power supply I developed plus one other addition I best not get into.

Oh and it needs to be pretty, I am considering ambrosia or spalted maple, I believe @bcowen owns the rights to tiger maple.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Your ears are spoiled.
> 
> Here, let me help you out with the review:
> 
> ...


Ah I forgot about the packaging, yes that was adequate. I rarely watch equipment reviews but I did see one where packaging was talked about more than the headphone amp itself lol.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> After I got the DV from Drop they asked me to give a glorious review of the amp, I nearly spit up my occasional adult beverage. It reminded me of a time when I would get photos of female card partners from all over the world and I was not sure how to respond. My wife always told me to say they have pretty eyes or some such. I told one Canadian lady that she was standing in front of an amazing looking hockey rink.😺 I felt like saying Dark Voice did a wonderful job of spelling its name correctly and leaving it at that. Maybe nice weight?😼



The sad fact of the matter is the guy who designed this doesn't know what he's doing, I've avoided putting out there bluntly until now but that is the truth.  If you don't know how to properly ground reference a heater supply or properly rate a mains fuse (which is a safety hazard, by the way), you shouldn't be selling literally thousands of tube amplifiers.  And it has nothing to do with price, these could have been designed properly without the hum issues for little-to-no additional cost.  I know that is not nice to say, but reading the Drop comments and everyone talking about their defective tubes due to hum is somewhat infuriating.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 21, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> The sad fact of the matter is the guy who designed this doesn't know what he's doing, I've avoided putting out there bluntly until now but that is the truth.  If you don't know how to properly ground reference a heater supply or properly rate a mains fuse (which is a safety hazard, by the way), you shouldn't be selling literally thousands of tube amplifiers.  And it has nothing to do with price, these could have been designed properly without the hum issues for little-to-no additional cost.  I know that is not nice to say, but reading the Drop comments and everyone talking about their defective tubes due to hum is somewhat infuriating.


I have my doubts if they plug headphones into one in ten and that is how they test them. People from my company saw such things while in China when looking at other products.

I have a couple other Chinese amps I ended up with that sound much better, stock.  I really hope that folks do not get the impression all tube amps are like this and walk away from them if this is the only such amp they own. I never even plugged in the original tubes, no reason to, I wanted tubes I knew well.

Oh and I will bottom vent the amp and with more space, I really doubt I will have heat issues. I will also change the mounting point on the 25 watt resistors.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I have my doubts if they plug headphones into one in ten and that is how they test them. People from my company saw such things while in China when looking at other products.
> 
> I have a couple other Chinese amps I ended up with that sound much better, stock.  I really hope that folks do not get the impression all tube amps are like this and walk away from them if this is the only such amp they own. I never even plugged in the original tubes, no reason to, I wanted tubes I knew well.


I think the price point of $200 is what makes amp so popular and it is always seems to be paired with the 6xx on drop.com. For me it was my entry into tube amps so without it I dont know if would have taken the leap to other tube amps. One of the designers does appear on this forum from time to time to offer insights but there is a language barrier so conversation is difficult. From what I know he split from Chengdu Orphean Sound Audio-Video Lab which built amps like the DV, to form his own company, Yuking Audio-Video Lab and builds the 339i amps now. Maybe it was for reasons mentioned above but that is pure speculation from me.


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone have a theory why a pot would work smoothly on one channel but seem to change volume in big chunks on the other? Alps 20k blue velvet.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I think the price point of $200 is what makes amp so popular and it is always seems to be paired with the 6xx on drop.com. For me it was my entry into tube amps so without it I dont know if would have taken the leap to other tube amps. One of the designers does appear on this forum from time to time to offer insights but there is a language barrier so conversation is difficult. From what I know he split from Chengdu Orphean Sound Audio-Video Lab which built amps like the DV, to form his own company, Yuking Audio-Video Lab and builds the 339i amps now. Maybe it was for reasons mentioned above but that is pure speculation from me.


The price is certainly attractive, I only bought one so I could help @bcowen with an extension case for his and I like this thread so I felt bad I did not own one. I do have a loaner amp of my design in Georgia right now and if there were not offers I would let you hear it.  I need to build another loaner when my shop warms up some. I use the same tubes so it is always nice to hear impressions on the 6sn7 and 6as7 etc.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have a theory why a pot would work smoothly on one channel but seem to change volume in big chunks on the other? Alps 20k blue velvet.


Did you buy the Alps pot from Ebay out of China?  I only buy them from US suppliers I trust. I had friends with BH Cracks that kept having issues with Alps pots but replacements I sent them were fine.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Did you buy the Alps pot from Ebay out of China?  I only buy them from US suppliers I trust. I had friends with BH Cracks that kept having issues with Alps pots but replacements I sent them were fine.


I bought it from partsxpress I think


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 21, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I bought it from partsxpress I think


They should be fine as a supplier, I like to use older ohmmeters to track both sides of a dual gang pot but it certainly sounds like a bad pot. They are pretty easy to open if you want to look on the inside for cracks, damage, or loose debris. Most I have seen are sealed so I doubt the pot is just dirty.

I love to use this meter with pots and electrolytics and they still sell them.

https://www.grainger.com/product/1A...aid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclsrc=aw.ds

Another favorite is Simpson 467, these came with a 10 amp shunt and a 10KV probe. Both models were used by the military and mine are at least 25 years old or older.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Simpson-46...548978?hash=item1a9a5718f2:g:H-oAAOSwy~Je5Su3

You can read up on what a true RMS meter is.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> The sad fact of the matter is the guy who designed this doesn't know what he's doing, I've avoided putting out there bluntly until now but that is the truth.  If you don't know how to properly ground reference a heater supply or properly rate a mains fuse (which is a safety hazard, by the way), you shouldn't be selling literally thousands of tube amplifiers.  And it has nothing to do with price, these could have been designed properly without the hum issues for little-to-no additional cost.  I know that is not nice to say, but reading the Drop comments and everyone talking about their defective tubes due to hum is somewhat infuriating.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Um, I do design tube amps, I believe I can get by.
> 
> My latest design was to win a bet after a bucket of strange parts were handed to me including Russian transmitter tubes. I called the amp the Cowen until the bet was over and I could improve the amp, now it it the Gemini Regna. With modification I can use Telefunken LS50 tubes of WW2 vintage.
> 
> ...


It probably sounded better when it was called the Cowen.   Well, at least the name.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They should be fine as a supplier, I like to use older ohmmeters to track both sides of a dual gang pot but it certainly sounds like a bad pot. They are pretty easy to open if you want to look on the inside for cracks, damage, or loose debris. Most I have seen are sealed so I doubt the pot is just dirty.
> 
> I love to use this meter with pots and electrolytics and they still sell them.
> 
> ...


I picked this one up on Ebay a couple years ago for $50.  Unbelievably good condition, and I was honestly unbelieving that I got it for that price.  I bought it primarily for the 1000 ohms/volt impedance that's needed for calibrating vintage tube testers as that's how their values were derived at some points in the procedure.  Modern meters have a very high (or nearly infinite) impedance, and you can cheat somewhat by paralleling a resistor with the probes, but that's only approximate and I wanted to be able to dial the tester(s) in as close to perfect as possible. This thing weighs a good 15 pounds with its cover installed.  They sure don't make 'em like this any more.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> I have my doubts if they plug headphones into one in ten and that is how they test them. People from my company saw such things while in China when looking at other products.
> 
> I have a couple other Chinese amps I ended up with that sound much better, stock.  I really hope that folks do not get the impression all tube amps are like this and walk away from them if this is the only such amp they own. I never even plugged in the original tubes, no reason to, I wanted tubes I knew well.
> 
> Oh and I will bottom vent the amp and with more space, I really doubt I will have heat issues. I will also change the mounting point on the 25 watt resistors.


that's a working product, and sold 3.4k on drop single website. and there have none flaming issue yet., making job just waste time, prove it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I picked this one up on Ebay a couple years ago for $50.  Unbelievably good condition, and I was honestly unbelieving that I got it for that price.  I bought it primarily for the 1000 ohms/volt impedance that's needed for calibrating vintage tube testers as that's how their values were derived at some points in the procedure.  Modern meters have a very high (or nearly infinite) impedance, and you can cheat somewhat by paralleling a resistor with the probes, but that's only approximate and I wanted to be able to dial the tester(s) in as close to perfect as possible. This thing weighs a good 15 pounds with its cover installed.  They sure don't make 'em like this any more.


I would suspect 30's or 40's. A couple of mine are 20k ohms per volt but after a while they stopped using that designation because of set input impedance. I have a few things laying around but I am trying to reduce equipment. Here I am going to use the motor from an old cordless drill to make a variable speed cresting machine for arrows.


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> that's a working product, and sold 3.4k on drop single website. and there have none flaming issue yet., making job just waste time, prove it.


Yes the price makes it sell. I did not say the amps caught fire, some complained about how hot they get, and are using cooling fans. Class A amps do get warm and some are worse than others.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> Yes the price makes it sell. I did not say the amps caught fire, some complained about how hot they get, and are using cooling fans. Class A amps do get warm and some are worse than others.


make price cheap is the their problem, is the labor too high in USA . the price suppose like this.

the amp rate for wide range of Impedance, if it's only design for 300~600, should be another story.


----------



## Galapac

qingcai said:


> make price cheap is the their problem, is the labor too high in USA . the price suppose like this.
> 
> the amp rate for wide range of Impedance, if it's only design for 300~600, should be another story.


You speak as if you designed the amp yet your post count would suggest otherwise? 🤔


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It probably sounded better when it was called the Cowen.   Well, at least the name.


At least it was not “the Cower”...


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> You speak as if you designed the amp yet your post count would suggest otherwise? 🤔


...to quote Ralph Waldo Emerson...”idea and execution are seldom found in the same head”...


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 21, 2021)

Well, pot's still weirdly tracking but it's up and running. Probably gonna just leave it at a spot where it's balanced and control the volume through the JDS switcher until I get another one of those little stepped attenuators in the mail.





Running with the stock tubes so in addition to the f'ed up pot it sounds like butt.

I will say, however, with the center tap there's no hum or noise floor of any kind. At least not with these butt tubes.

Edit to ask: is there anything other than a bad pot to make the volume go up normally in one channel but in a weird way in the other? The 'weird way' is like, there's no volume, then it equalizes to the normal channel, then it doesn't change until a significantly louder point, then it's balanced at 100%? There's also some fuzz in that channel if I touch the power tube (gently, carefully!) after it's turned off.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well, pot's still weirdly tracking but it's up and running. Probably gonna just leave it at a spot where it's balanced and control the volume through the JDS switcher until I get another one of those little stepped attenuators in the mail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So let me be sure I'm understanding you correctly.  You turn the volume knob to, say 9:00 (just an arbitrary point to illustrate).  You get good and proper sound out of one channel (call it channel A), and there's no sound out of the other channel (channel B).  Then, without touching the volume knob, the volume in channel B at some point increases to match the volume in channel A?  Then if you turn the volume knob to, say 10:00, the sound in channel A responds appropriately, but the sound in channel B stays where it was....until at some point it increases (_on its own_) to match the volume of channel A?  Ghost operating the machine kind of thing?  Or am I misunderstanding what's happening?


----------



## qingcai

Galapac said:


> You speak as if you designed the amp yet your post count would suggest otherwise? 🤔


post count does not mean anything.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> So let me be sure I'm understanding you correctly.  You turn the volume knob to, say 9:00 (just an arbitrary point to illustrate).  You get good and proper sound out of one channel (call it channel A), and there's no sound out of the other channel (channel B).  Then, without touching the volume knob, the volume in channel B at some point increases to match the volume in channel A?  Then if you turn the volume knob to, say 10:00, the sound in channel A responds appropriately, but the sound in channel B stays where it was....until at some point it increases (_on its own_) to match the volume of channel A?  Ghost operating the machine kind of thing?  Or am I misunderstanding what's happening?


No it’s more like a sticky wiper I think. I start turning and the left channel goes up normally but the right channel goes up at seemingly variable speeds.


----------



## DeweyCH

See if a touch of Faderlube helps smooth out the volume...


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> See if a touch of Faderlube helps smooth out the volume...


Good suggestion, I have used such products but had trouble recalling the names lol.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> See if a touch of Faderlube helps smooth out the volume...


I know this isn’t your first time soldering a pot but do you think the wiper has been damaged? I try to only solder once and keep it 3s or so. This was even more easy to do when I didn’t use a breadboard/pcb. I destroyed two alps by being heavy handed with my soldering and or like you, messing up a pin upon removal due to using a shunt board. They are tricky to remove from a board, even if using a solder sucker. They do easily unscrew apart and you can inspect the internals. You should be able to do this after unscrewing it from the front plate even if it’s soldered up. If you already mentioned doing this, sorry if I missed it.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I know this isn’t your first time soldering a pot but do you think the wiper has been damaged? I try to only solder once and keep it 3s or so. This was even more easy to do when I didn’t use a breadboard/pcb. I destroyed two alps by being heavy handed with my soldering and or like you, messing up a pin upon removal due to using a shunt board. They are tricky to remove from a board, even if using a solder sucker. They do easily unscrew apart and you can inspect the internals. You should be able to do this after unscrewing it from the front plate even if it’s soldered up. If you already mentioned doing this, sorry if I missed it.


It’s quite possible. If the f5 doesn’t clear things up I’ll disassemble it and see.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> No it’s more like a sticky wiper I think. I start turning and the left channel goes up normally but the right channel goes up at seemingly variable speeds.


Oh, OK.  That makes much more sense.  What I was envisioning would point more to a bad solder joint or bad internal component which would make troubleshooting far more difficult.  

I would bet that the pot's disc for the right channel is warped.  Those discs (in the Alps) are plastic with a conductive coating applied to them, and too much heat when soldering can damage them pretty easily.  Hitting it with the Faderlube is easy and certainly worth a try....could also be as simple as some foreign substance stuck on the wiper contact for that channel that the Faderlube might dislodge.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh, OK.  That makes much more sense.  What I was envisioning would point more to a bad solder joint or bad internal component which would make troubleshooting far more difficult.
> 
> I would bet that the pot's disc for the right channel is warped.  Those discs (in the Alps) are plastic with a conductive coating applied to them, and too much heat when soldering can damage them pretty easily.  Hitting it with the Faderlube is easy and certainly worth a try....could also be as simple as some foreign substance stuck on the wiper contact for that channel that the Faderlube might dislodge.


I mentioned opening the pot early on for a quick examination. Getting Faderlube in there otherwise could prove difficult.


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Oh, OK.  That makes much more sense.  What I was envisioning would point more to a bad solder joint or bad internal component which would make troubleshooting far more difficult.
> 
> I would bet that the pot's disc for the right channel is warped.  Those discs (in the Alps) are plastic with a conductive coating applied to them, and too much heat when soldering can damage them pretty easily.  Hitting it with the Faderlube is easy and certainly worth a try....could also be as simple as some foreign substance stuck on the wiper contact for that channel that the Faderlube might dislodge.


Seems the most likely culprit. Faderlube didn't help too much. Sounding good though, I'll get into the pot later tonight.
Oops... right channel just fizzed and went out. Gotta figure that wiper's not doing anything useful right now. Although... interesting note... when I switched off the DV, the fizz disappeared and the channel came back clear (during that short period of music as the caps discharge).

I'll also check all my solder joints along the right channel tonight. As I have noted, a good soldererer I am not.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Seems the most likely culprit. Faderlube didn't help too much. Sounding good though, I'll get into the pot later tonight.
> Oops... right channel just fizzed and went out. Gotta figure that wiper's not doing anything useful right now. Although... interesting note... when I switched off the DV, the fizz disappeared and the channel came back clear (during that short period of music as the caps discharge).
> 
> I'll also check all my solder joints along the right channel tonight. As I have noted, a good soldererer I am not.


That's just weird (stating the obvious ).  Just for schiits and giggles, have you tried swapping your left and right channel input cables just to be sure the problem isn't upstream of the amp?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That's just weird (stating the obvious ).  Just for schiits and giggles, have you tried swapping your left and right channel input cables just to be sure the problem isn't upstream of the amp?


Good call. I'll do that first.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ugh. It's upstream. I changed L/R (both the input and wiper) and the problem is still in the right channel, despite the right channel now going through the 1st wiper.

OK, smarter people than me, what could cause a channel to be weird like this? The "fizzing" in the right channel seems to come and go, and touching the tubes sets it off. Also the right channel seems to scale differently than the left channel when volume is changed.

I'm in over my head, as per the usual. Anyone care to point me in a direction to check/test/etc.?

I replaced all of the resistors on the 6sn7 socket, both sockets, the two wirewound resistors behind the power caps, and added the center tap.

Here's some photos, enjoy the carnage:

















If it weren't a relatively crappy amp out of the chute you could cry at what I've done to it.


----------



## SHIMACM

My power cables and RCA cables arrived.

I was a little skeptical about cables.

But after I changed ..... wow !!!

It improved the sound a lot.

Mainly the RCA cable.

How long using mediocre cables. aff.

My TS 6080 also arrived.

Substituted tube.

Excellent tube !!!!

It goes very well with the Sylvania 6j5gt, even with the sylvanias I prefer the TS over the Mullard 6080.

Still to arrive:

Chatham / Bendix 6080 (graphite board).

Sylvania 6080 GB

Foton 1953

Brimar 6sn7gt

Tung-sun 6j5gt

Tung-sun 6j5g

GEC 6080

Plenty of good stuff ahead and the wallet empty. haha.


----------



## DeweyCH

...I realized I totally overthought what @bcowen meant by "upstream of the amp." It seems to be upstream in the signal path within the amp.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 22, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> ...I realized I totally overthought what @bcowen meant by "upstream of the amp." It seems to be upstream in the signal path within the amp.


Well, at least we know it's not _prior_ to the amp now. It's hard to tell exactly from the pic, but is the circled resistor going to pin 5 on the socket? That's where it needs to be if not. It also looks like that resistor lead may be touching the solder lug on pin 6....be sure there is clearance between the two if not already. Your wires from the pot should be going to pins 1 and 4....they may well be already, just hard to tell for sure from the pic. And also, clip that excess lead off at the yellow arrow....if that's touching the wire below it, you're grounding out the anode.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> My power cables and RCA cables arrived.
> 
> I was a little skeptical about cables.
> 
> ...


Dang, man.  Nice haul!  And you have some excellent tubes incoming...several of my personal favorites in there.  I assume by the 6J5G you mean just a 6J5 (tin-can)?  Those live in the same camp (IMO) as the Fotons...great sound for a (relative) bargain price.  Which RCA cables did you get?  You might have mentioned those before so my apologies for asking again if you did.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Well, at least we know it's not _prior_ to the amp now. It's hard to tell exactly from the pic, but is the circled resistor going to pin 5 on the socket? That's where it needs to be if not. It also looks like that resistor lead may be touching the solder lug on pin 6....be sure there is clearance between the two if not already. Your wires from the pot should be going to pins 1 and 4....they may well be already, just hard to tell for sure from the pic. And also, clip that excess lead off at the yellow arrow.....not because it's causing the problem, just that it bothers me.


It is going to 5, yeah, and it wasn't touching the lug on pin 6. I clipped that bit for you.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> It is going to 5, yeah, and it wasn't touching the lug on pin 6. I clipped that bit for you.


Was that excess lead you clipped perhaps touching the wire below it?  Or was there clearance between the two (before clipping)?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Was that excess lead you clipped perhaps touching the wire below it?  Or was there clearance between the two (before clipping)?


No there was plenty of clearance. It was just kinda hanging out in the open.


----------



## Slade01

@bcowen off topic a little bit - I wanted to thank you about your mention of those ECC82 Telefunken Smooth Plates.  It's easily a top favorite of mine now in that family.  It sounds fantastic in my other amp.  Gonna have to, for the hell of it, see how it sounds in the darkvoice once i get an adapter in.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> No there was plenty of clearance. It was just kinda hanging out in the open.


Well, I'm out of answers then.  Nothing else I can see stands out.  You've double checked the resistor values you've swapped out on the 6SN7 socket I assume (1K on pins 3 and 6, 30K on pins 2 and 5, and 1 Meg on pins 1 and 4)?  Hopefully someone with eagle-er eyes (and a better brain) can see something here...


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> No there was plenty of clearance. It was just kinda hanging out in the open.


Could it just be a cold solder joint?
It'd suck if it was since you're pretty much be better off redoing them all rather than trying to find the bad one


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> No there was plenty of clearance. It was just kinda hanging out in the open.


If you have long nose pliers, I would latch onto a lead from any part you added and force it back and forth a a bit near the solder joints. I couple of those look pretty iffy to me and you can find out if you have a good solder joint by applying pressure at times. You can always go back over said joints and reflow solder.


----------



## therremans

Run through your connections. Make sure there’s enough solder.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen off topic a little bit - I wanted to thank you about your mention of those ECC82 Telefunken Smooth Plates.  It's easily a top favorite of mine now in that family.  It sounds fantastic in my other amp.  Gonna have to, for the hell of it, see how it sounds in the darkvoice once i get an adapter in.


Glad to hear you like them!  And the fact that you're talking about a tube in this thread is totally forgiven.     

I haven't tried them in the DV yet....as hard as it may seem to believe, I didn't have a 12a*7 -> 6SN7 adapter.  I'm slipping.  I made one this weekend, just giving it a few days to be sure the epoxy is fully cured.  I only have one pair of the smooth plates left, but I'll give one a try later.  Have several of the ribbed plates, but they are not as good as the smooth plates. Guessing the smooth plates were of earlier manufacture...


----------



## Paladin79

Some quick basics, heat the joint then apply solder and make sure it flows around the joint. Always attach your leads so they are making contact before you solder. Do NOT apply solder to the tip of your soldering iron while soldering, this burns off the rosin flux and does not clean the joint properly. Using 60/40 solder, you should have a nice shiny solder joint when done correctly, if it is milky colored, you may  have a cold solder joint.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Dang, man.  Nice haul!  And you have some excellent tubes incoming...several of my personal favorites in there.  I assume by the 6J5G you mean just a 6J5 (tin-can)?  Those live in the same camp (IMO) as the Fotons...great sound for a (relative) bargain price.  Which RCA cables did you get?  You might have mentioned those before so my apologies for asking again if you did.



There are two pairs of Tung-Sol. A pair of TS 6j5g (bottle of coca) and a pair of TS 6j5gt (straight glass).

The RCA cable is an Absolute Rca Absolute Aw400.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 22, 2021)

Make a loop in the end of a resistor you want to attach, crimp it in place with your pliers, apply heat to the opposite side of where the solder is to be applied, the solder should fill the entire resistor lead loop and flow onto the chassis wire. It should be nice and shiny and solid when done.  Ignore the resistor value and where it is attached lol, this is just an example of soldering. Do not move the resistor around as the solder is cooling. After I crimped it the loop held the resistor firmly in place so applying the solder was very easy. Naturally you want to cut the resistor leads to he proper lengths and make any bends needed before crimping it to the needed location.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Make a loop in the end of a resistor you want to attach, crimp it in place with your pliers, apply heat to the opposite side of where the solder is to be applied, the solder should fill the entire resistor lead loop and flow onto the chassis wire. It should be nice and shiny and solid when done.  Ignore the resistor value and where it is attached lol, this is just an example of soldering. Do not move the resistor around as the solder is cooling. After I crimped it the loop held the resistor firmly in place so applying the solder was very easy. Naturally you want to cut the resistor leads to he proper lengths and make any bends needed before crimping it to the needed location.


I've been learning soldering by YouTube mostly. I'll go through every single solder tonight and re-do them. I'm sure that's the issue. Thank you for the photos here, they're helpful.


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Could it just be a cold solder joint?
> It'd suck if it was since you're pretty much be better off redoing them all rather than trying to find the bad one


I figured this might be necessary at some point. I'm getting better at soldering, but still learning by doing.


----------



## DeweyCH

Question: the long, shaped metal wires... those are just regular solid-core wires with an insulating jacket on them, right? Not the heaters.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Question: the long, shaped metal wires... those are just regular solid-core wires with an insulating jacket on them, right? Not the heaters.


Yes, I haven’t dismantled mine yet but it could be clear heat shrink tubing, an insulator all the same.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I've been learning soldering by YouTube mostly. I'll go through every single solder tonight and re-do them. I'm sure that's the issue. Thank you for the photos here, they're helpful.


You will learn from your mistakes and know better the next time.  I am using 800 degree tips in my soldering stations most of the time and equipment can be a factor when you solder. Some of my first builds were things like an oscilloscope and FM radio in college and early tinkering with tube equipment in the late sixties so I have been doing this for a while.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> You will learn from your mistakes and know better the next time.  I am using 800 degree tips in my soldering stations most of the time and equipment can be a factor when you solder. Some of my first builds were things like an oscilloscope and FM radio in college and early tinkering with tube equipment in the late sixties so I have been doing this for a while.


The advice is much appreciated! And that’s always been my belief, mistakes exist to learn from.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I've been learning soldering by YouTube mostly. I'll go through every single solder tonight and re-do them. I'm sure that's the issue. Thank you for the photos here, they're helpful.


Just a word of caution:  some of the "how to solder" YouTube videos I've seen are either hilarious or disturbing, depending on perspective.   As @Paladin79 demonstrated nicely above, you want a tight and solid electrical connection before any solder is ever applied.  One thing that's stuck in my memory after all these years was what my Dad taught me when I first started: think of solder as a sealant, not a glue.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> There are two pairs of Tung-Sol. A pair of TS 6j5g (bottle of coca) and a pair of TS 6j5gt (straight glass).
> 
> The RCA cable is an Absolute Rca Absolute Aw400.


Very nice.  Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...and early tinkering with tube equipment in the late sixties....


So you'd already graduated from college by then?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So you'd already graduated from college by then?


Prior to high school and college. I was in grad school in the 80’s lol. I am old but on a given day I am nearly lucid.😾


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Prior to high school and college. I was in grad school in the 80’s lol. I am old but on a given day I am nearly lucid.😾



LOL!  After my 10 years in college I settled for a bachelor's.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> The advice is much appreciated! And that’s always been my belief, mistakes exist to learn from.


One thing I noticed from your previous pics: those two 200 ohm power resistors (arrows) put off a LOT of heat.  Bend them out by their leads to get them as far away from the circuit board and into free airspace as best you can (without them coming into contact with something else).  Otherwise your circuit board will be in a long-term barbeque situation.  Would probably still taste better than Texas BBQ, but I'm assuming you didn't buy the DV for a dinner meal...    






Below is an old pic (and not a very good one at that) but I don't have mine open right now.  This is one of the stock resistors and you can see how it is spaced well away from the circuit board:


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  After my 10 years in college I settled for a bachelor's.


Lol, one does what one can


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> I figured this might be necessary at some point. I'm getting better at soldering, but still learning by doing.


No worries, we've all been solder rookies at one point - except maybe Paladin. I'm beginning to suspect he was born with a silver iron in hand and has since evolved the ability to accurately test values just by sense of touch.

Just be happy you don't have to desolder anything. I curse the person who invented desoldering braid!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> No worries, we've all been solder rookies at one point - except maybe Paladin. I'm beginning to suspect he was born with a silver iron in hand and has since evolved the ability to accurately test values just by sense of touch.
> 
> Just be happy you don't have to desolder anything. I curse the person who invented desoldering braid!


Solder wick has its uses but it helps to have a decent solder sucker, I only use Soldapullt myself. Hand tools are important as well. In some cases I built my own tools like straight picks out is spring steel.


----------



## Galapac

It’s almost as if this hobby is screaming for a better desoldering tool. A small, hand held appliance that heats the solder and vacuums the solder at the same time. 🤔


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  After my 10 years in college I settled for a bachelor's.


Did you major in Greek (life)?....


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> It’s almost as if this hobby is screaming for a better desoldering tool. A small, hand held appliance that heats the solder and vacuums the solder at the same time. 🤔


Pace and other companies make desoldering irons, or used to. I have owned them in the past.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Pace and other companies make desoldering irons, or used to. I have owned them in the past.


Shows what I know. If you can think it someone has already invented it by now or has a patent already. It is very rare to have an original idea so at best we can only improve on others designs most of the time.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> It’s almost as if this hobby is screaming for a better desoldering tool. A small, hand held appliance that heats the solder and vacuums the solder at the same time. 🤔


You mean like this?  I have no experience with one, but being a Hakko it's probably a good working tool.

https://www.amazon.com/American-HAK...rds=desoldering+station&qid=1614054940&sr=8-5


----------



## bcowen (Feb 23, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> No worries, we've all been solder rookies at one point - except maybe Paladin. I'm beginning to suspect he was born with a silver iron in hand and has since evolved the ability to accurately test values just by sense of touch.
> 
> Just be happy you don't have to desolder anything. I curse the person who invented desoldering braid!


On the desoldering braid, a lot depends on the quality IME.  I've used some that were more maddening than helpful, but have had good success with the Sodlr-Wick brand on the left.  The Chem-Wik Lite is OK and better than many others I've used, but not as good as the Sodlr-Wick.  Both made by Chemtronics, but the Chem-Wik is cheaper....and you find out why after you've used both.   The picture doesn't show it well, but the Sodlr-Wick has smaller diameter copper strands and a denser weave, and also seems to be loaded with about twice as much flux.  I even wrote 'best' on it just to make sure I ordered the right one the next time around.  

Also, there's a shelf life involved with this stuff which presumably has to do with the copper oxidizing the longer it's exposed to air.  I keep mine in a zip-lock bag when not in use just to limit the exposure as best possible.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Did you major in Greek (life)?....


No, skiing.  I went to college in the mountains.  I _did_ attend classes every now and then when the snow base was too thin at Beech and Sugar Mountain.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, skiing.  I went to college in the mountains.  I _did_ attend classes every now and then when the snow base was too thin at Beech and Sugar Mountain.


A “ski+” grade average 🤔


----------



## DeweyCH

Good grief why have I been using a conical tip to solder all this time?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No, skiing.  I went to college in the mountains.  I _did_ attend classes every now and then when the snow base was too thin at Beech and Sugar Mountain.


My daughter went to college in Glenwood Springs Colorado, not too far from Aspen and Vail so the same thing happened there. She could have gone to Purdue for similar money but when the choice is looking out your dorm window and seeing mountains instead of corn fields, she chose the mountains. Doc Holliday is buried in Glenwood springs.

As far as solder wick....       https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...1&keywords=solder+wick&qid=1614087923&sr=8-14

I tend to buy types that you can seal in its own container. 

Desoldering braid, also known as desoldering *wick* or *solder wick*, is finely braided 18 to 42 AWG copper wire coated with rosin flux, usually supplied on a roll. ... The connections are heated with a *soldering* iron until the *solder* melts and is wicked into the braid by capillary action.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Good grief why have I been using a conical tip to solder all this time?


I use Weller and Hakko soldering stations with a wide range of tip types.

https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Ta...ocphy=9016564&hvtargid=pla-568666029531&psc=1

More often I use Weller, I can change tips within a few seconds depending on what I am soldering, on the models I have this also changes the temperature. I stick with 700 and 800 degree tips for the most part and the Hakko has variable temp adjustments.

I have miniature irons if I am soldering SMD components.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I use Weller and Hakko soldering stations with a wide range of tip types.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Ta...ocphy=9016564&hvtargid=pla-568666029531&psc=1
> 
> ...


I've been using this one from Amazon - it works pretty well, has adjustable temp and is reasonably well-made. But last night when I went to resolder everything, I switched from a standard B-series tip to a C-series and good lord the difference in the surface area made everything so much easier.

Still not done - have a ground hum that I need to find - but if nothing else my joints look a thousand times better:


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> They should be fine as a supplier, I like to use older ohmmeters to track both sides of a dual gang pot but it certainly sounds like a bad pot. They are pretty easy to open if you want to look on the inside for cracks, damage, or loose debris. Most I have seen are sealed so I doubt the pot is just dirty.
> 
> I love to use this meter with pots and electrolytics and they still sell them.
> 
> ...


I went ahead and ordered one of those Simpson multimeters from eBay. Should be handy. Better than the little battery-powered handheld one I have.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I've been using this one from Amazon - it works pretty well, has adjustable temp and is reasonably well-made. But last night when I went to resolder everything, I switched from a standard B-series tip to a C-series and good lord the difference in the surface area made everything so much easier.
> 
> Still not done - have a ground hum that I need to find - but if nothing else my joints look a thousand times better:


That is looking quite a bit better.

Oh and so I do not sound like I am constantly trashing the DV, they are using either silver or nickel/silver plated copper wire in a decent gauge. This does keep down corrosion and is often used in high temperature applications. Some folks do have the misconception that it improves sound. At high frequencies the signal is more on the outside of the wire, this is called skin effect. Only a small amount of this occurs below 100,000 cycles. Some RF cables have hollow centers because the signal travels predominantly on the outside anyway.


----------



## DeweyCH

Is there any reason I would have to ground the inputs to the pot or can I just attach that ground to the ground bus literally right next to it?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I went ahead and ordered one of those Simpson multimeters from eBay. Should be handy. Better than the little battery-powered handheld one I have.


They are something that can last years and years. Depending on the model you chose, I probably have extra HV probes and shunt resistors around somewhere. Mine came in quality cases with all attachments. Oh and unlike some products made overseas, you can buy more test leads if ever needed.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> They are something that can last years and years. Depending on the model you chose, I probably have extra HV probes and shunt resistors around somewhere. Mine came in quality cases with all attachments. Oh and unlike some products made overseas, you can buy more test leads if ever needed.


Got the 467 you referenced. Price was beyond reasonable.


----------



## Paladin79

Great meters and they have a built in continuity tester. That is a quick and easy way to test for proper ground connections. I used it to troubleshoot something for @bcowen, the underside of some chassis are painted and manufacturers sometimes rely on washers like this to cut through the paint and make proper contact.





It is much better to scrape the paint away to insure better contact.  It is also a great way to test for issues with headphone cables and the like. The tester gives off an audible beep when you have continuity. It can also tell you quickly if you have a short circuit or open circuit.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 23, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Is there any reason I would have to ground the inputs to the pot or can I just attach that ground to the ground bus literally right next to it?


Are you asking about attaching both grounds on the pot together and then on to chassis ground?  If what you are describing is the same point electrically then you are fine.

This is another great use of a continuity tester lol, or you can measure with an ohmmeter to be sure. It is common practice to attach both grounds together on the pot and then wire to chassis ground. They may have done this through the pc board but I have yet to dismantle my DV. You do want to attach only the grounds together, not the wiper or inputs lol, unless you want a mono amp.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Are you asking about attaching both grounds on the pot together and then on to chassis ground?  If what you are describing is the same point electrically then you are fine.
> 
> This is another great use of a continuity tester lol, or you can measure with an ohmmeter to be sure. It is common practice to attach both grounds together on the pot and then wire to chassis ground. They may have done this through the pc board but I have yet to dismantle my DV. You do want to attach only the grounds together, not the wiper or inputs lol, unless you want a mono amp.


I'm actually talking about the ground that comes in with the inputs. I've always seen it soldered onto the pot's ground pins, but I've got my ground pins connected to each other and then via the green wires in my pic to the ground bus. Could I just bypass the pot entirely and ground the inputs at the ground bus where it attaches to the headphone jack ground?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I'm actually talking about the ground that comes in with the inputs. I've always seen it soldered onto the pot's ground pins, but I've got my ground pins connected to each other and then via the green wires in my pic to the ground bus. Could I just bypass the pot entirely and ground the inputs at the ground bus where it attaches to the headphone jack ground?


I would say yes, see they are going to the same point anyway I would think.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Great meters and they have a built in continuity tester. That is a quick and easy way to test for proper ground connections. I used it to troubleshoot something for @bcowen, the underside of some chassis are painted and manufacturers sometimes rely on washers like this to cut through the paint and make proper contact.
> 
> 
> 
> It is much better to scrape the paint away to insure better contact.  It is also a great way to test for issues with headphone cables and the like. The tester gives off an audible beep when you have continuity. It can also tell you quickly if you have a short circuit or open circuit.



Glad you brought this up.  In @DeweyCH 's continued hum war, two things I see.

1) Remove the IEC socket's ground lug screw from the chassis and scrape away the powder coat paint there and then re-attach.  The paint was not scraped off at the factory, and the only (good) earth ground connection is whatever paint might have sheared off the screw threads when they put it in.  Pretty much the same grounding  issue you described above with the Cary preamp, just at a different point in the DV.  My DV had a slight hum when I first got it (it was only slight, so I guess I was one of the lucky ones), but once I'd scraped the paint and provided a much cleaner ground path that hum went away.

Mine after scraping:





2) @DeweyCH needs to get rid of the herculean bus bar heater rods and get some twisted pair wiring in there.  That's an AC signal, and those wires should be twisted for best noise rejection.  Below is @L0rdGwyn 's photo of how the heater wiring (green wire) _should_ be done.   That should solve a good bit of hum issues in and of itself.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Glad you brought this up.  In @DeweyCH 's continued hum war, two things I see.
> 
> 1) Remove the IEC socket's ground lug screw from the chassis and scrape away the powder coat paint there and then re-attach.  The paint was not scraped off at the factory, and the only (good) earth ground connection is whatever paint might have sheared off the screw threads when they put it in.  Pretty much the same grounding  issue you described above with the Cary preamp, just at a different point in the DV.  My DV had a slight hum when I first got it (it was only slight, so I guess I was one of the lucky ones), but once I'd scraped the paint and provided a much cleaner ground path that hum went away.
> 
> ...


Two good points. I cringed when I looked inside mine and saw those filament lines lol.  I have been thinking through a cabinet extension for some Cowen guy and have spent little time dismantling mine.   Oh and I have a preference for soldering to the IEC lugs.

The ground screw from the IEC was not very tight in mine, threads were stripped and it appeared to have a coating of rosin on the top of the lug, I will scrape away the paint change to a better screw and do this right.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Glad you brought this up.  In @DeweyCH 's continued hum war, two things I see.
> 
> 1) Remove the IEC socket's ground lug screw from the chassis and scrape away the powder coat paint there and then re-attach.  The paint was not scraped off at the factory, and the only (good) earth ground connection is whatever paint might have sheared off the screw threads when they put it in.  Pretty much the same grounding  issue you described above with the Cary preamp, just at a different point in the DV.  My DV had a slight hum when I first got it (it was only slight, so I guess I was one of the lucky ones), but once I'd scraped the paint and provided a much cleaner ground path that hum went away.
> 
> ...


So, I was somewhat under the impression that the heater bars were tungsten and special. Is that just regular copper wire?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> So, I was somewhat under the impression that the heater bars were tungsten and special. Is that just regular copper wire?


Read about twisted pair sometime, I prefer bonded twisted pair.  The material has little to do with noise rejection.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Read about twisted pair sometime, I prefer bonded twisted pair.  The material has little to do with noise rejection.


I'll read up on them. Can I use twisted solid-core copper wires to replace the heater rods then?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I'll read up on them. Can I use twisted solid-core copper wires to replace the heater rods then?



Absolutely.  20 gauge is sufficient.  A heavier gauge is fine too, but I wouldn't go smaller than 20 gauge.  The important thing is the twisting.  I seriously doubt those are tungsten rods or wires or whatever in the stock DV.  They are just a heavy gauge wire that's probably no different than any of the other wiring in there.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Two good points. I cringed when I looked inside mine and saw those filament lines lol.  I have been thinking through a cabinet extension for some Cowen guy and have spent little time dismantling mine.


Thinking about?  You mean I shouldn't continue waiting by the mailbox right now?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Absolutely.  20 gauge is sufficient.  A heavier gauge is fine too, but I wouldn't go smaller than 20 gauge.  The important thing is the twisting.  I seriously doubt those are tungsten rods or wires or whatever in the stock DV.  They are just a heavy gauge wire that's probably no different than any of the other wiring in there.


Good to know! I’ve got some 18 gauge solid core wire arriving this afternoon I’ll use


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thinking about?  You mean I shouldn't continue waiting by the mailbox right now?


Oh yeah, do you plan to keep the bottom plate on your amp? If not I will need to notch the front and back a bit so to avoid a gap.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Good to know! I’ve got some 18 gauge solid core wire arriving this afternoon I’ll use


That will work nicely.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah, do you plan to keep the bottom plate on your amp? If not I will need to notch the front and back a bit so to avoid a gap.


No, the stock bottom plate will be disappeared.  The extension will allow me to parallel a pair of 47uf Mundorfs (per channel) for the coupling caps, but will stick out below the bottom plane of the chassis by about an inch.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No, the stock bottom plate will be disappeared.  The extension will allow me to parallel a pair of 47uf Mundorfs (per channel) for the coupling caps, but will stick out below the bottom plane of the chassis by about an inch.


Ok I will go to the extra trouble, if I have to, I guess.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> If someone could give me the dimensions of the top plate and front plate I can do some preliminary work on a cabinet build. It looks like @bcowen will use his front plate so it is easy enough to do a drop in design for his. In the event I give mine away I could do something similar. If I were to keep it I would use dual volume pots and these little guys would not fit the normal front plate.   They are 1.5 inches square and .75 inches deep. If I keep it I would have to do copper plate along the lines of something I made for a buddy in Maryland. Such a plate would accommodate the Alps pots as well as VU meters. The electronics is the easy part, the cabinet build is the fun part for me at least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


top 10 3/4 x 6 " 
front 2 1/8 x 5 7/8 "


----------



## DeweyCH

Coolio. Took the heater bars out, and man, changing to this different tip has made a ton of difference. Solder wick? Sucking solder out like nothing. I'm going back and cleaning up all the spots that look nasty, and I'll put in the twisty wires this evening. After shoring up a few connections the hum was gone (but right channel was out). It'll be done soon, I think.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 23, 2021)

top 10 3/4 x 6 "
front 2 1/8 x 5 7/8 "


Thanks, I now have a DarkVoice, at the time I was not sure of the delivery schedule and it arrived early.


----------



## DeweyCH

OOC, what are the two black things the heater wire is attached to in that above pic?


----------



## Paladin79

Resistors


----------



## Ripper2860

Bill has finally slayed that hum problem with his DV...


----------



## therremans (Feb 23, 2021)

*Tung-Sol 6J5G VT-94A*

I saw that our fellow member @SHIMACM recently got these guys in and ironically mine also arrived yesterday. I do already own a pair of the GT straight tube version but I just couldn’t pass these up. I must be a addict collector because I am legit happy to finally have acquired them. Not only are they pretty rare nowadays but NOS condition VT-94A condition has taken me about a year to find. PM me if you want and I will contact the supplier. He said he has more and we can try to workout a bulk buy.

It had been awhile since I turned on the DV and I wanted to give these a listen last night. I have found a sweet combination (tubes, headphones, pads, etc). I ended up listening for a couple of hours, I just couldn't put the beyers down. I think everyone should own a pair of these as they will likely work for your setup. They match up very well with the TS 5998. It's a wonderful full accurate neutral sound that probably makes the signal sound close to what they had in mind at the studio, it's very balanced and articulate. I like that even with the 5998, the low end is fully present and not recessed, thick and detailed, yet not clinical. The instruments still sound very natural and lifelike, all of the tube warmth is present here. I was also reminded by how far my DV has came, the sound still surprises me after taking a brief hiatus. (My amp has some Riken resistors (thanks to @bcowen), the rest are Vishay and Mills, the output caps have also been replaced with Vishay's @ 80uF). I am looking forward to removing the fitz mod and trying out the new modifications. We are currently going through a move so projects are on hold. I also have to figure out which parts to order for the next mods.


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol 6J5G VT-94A*
> 
> I saw that our fellow member @SHIMACM recently got these guys in and ironically mine also arrived yesterday. I do already own a pair of the GT straight tube version but I just couldn’t pass these up. I must be a addict collector because I am legit happy to finally have acquired them. Not only are they pretty rare nowadays but NOS condition VT-94A condition has taken me about a year to find. PM me if you want and I will contact the supplier. He said he has more and we can try to workout a bulk buy.
> 
> It had been awhile since I turned on the DV and I wanted to give these a listen last night. I have found a sweet combination (tubes, headphones, pads, etc). I ended up listening for a couple of hours, I just couldn't put the beyers down. I think everyone should own a pair of these as they will likely work for your setup. They match up very well with the TS 5998. It's a wonderful full accurate neutral sound that probably makes the signal sound close to what they had in mind at the studio, it's very balanced and articulate. I like that even with the 5998, the low end is fully present and not recessed, thick and detailed, yet not clinical. The instruments still sound very natural and lifelike, all of the tube warmth is present here. I was also reminded by how far my DV has came, the sound still surprises me after taking a brief hiatus. (My amp has some Riken resistors (thanks to @bcowen), the rest are Vishay and Mills, the output caps have also been replaced with Vishay's @ 80uF). I am looking forward to removing the fitz mod and trying out the new modifications. We are currently going through a move so projects are on hold. I also have to figure out which parts to order for the next mods.



Boy, you get some really good tubes.

Would you mind telling PM how much you paid for them?

As you said, the supplier has more of them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and I have a preference for soldering to the IEC lugs.



Oh good grief. You probably solder your shoelaces together every morning.


----------



## SHIMACM

does the coca bottle version sound better than the straight bottle version?

Mine haven't arrived yet.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 23, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> OOC, what are the two black things the heater wire is attached to in that above pic?



Those are the dropping resistors to get your heater voltage down to 6.3v (or close).  Part of the mods that @L0rdGwyn has posted about.  If yours is like most everyone else's that has chimed in on it you're probably getting around 7 volts, maybe higher.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill has finally slayed that hum problem with his DV...


Man, the cocaine in TX has _really_ degraded if it looks like that these days.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Tung-Sol 6J5G VT-94A*
> 
> I saw that our fellow member @SHIMACM recently got these guys in and ironically mine also arrived yesterday. I do already own a pair of the GT straight tube version but I just couldn’t pass these up. I must be a addict collector because I am legit happy to finally have acquired them. Not only are they pretty rare nowadays but NOS condition VT-94A condition has taken me about a year to find. PM me if you want and I will contact the supplier. He said he has more and we can try to workout a bulk buy.
> 
> It had been awhile since I turned on the DV and I wanted to give these a listen last night. I have found a sweet combination (tubes, headphones, pads, etc). I ended up listening for a couple of hours, I just couldn't put the beyers down. I think everyone should own a pair of these as they will likely work for your setup. They match up very well with the TS 5998. It's a wonderful full accurate neutral sound that probably makes the signal sound close to what they had in mind at the studio, it's very balanced and articulate. I like that even with the 5998, the low end is fully present and not recessed, thick and detailed, yet not clinical. The instruments still sound very natural and lifelike, all of the tube warmth is present here. I was also reminded by how far my DV has came, the sound still surprises me after taking a brief hiatus. (My amp has some Riken resistors (thanks to @bcowen), the rest are Vishay and Mills, the output caps have also been replaced with Vishay's @ 80uF). I am looking forward to removing the fitz mod and trying out the new modifications. We are currently going through a move so projects are on hold. I also have to figure out which parts to order for the next mods.


Was wondering where you'd run off to.      Hope the move is going OK?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> does the coca bottle version sound better than the straight bottle version?
> 
> Mine haven't arrived yet.


I’ll compare them to the straight bottles tonight and let you know. But it’s definitely a very similar sound. But from memory if I had to say.. I’m leaning towards the 6J5Gs being a little more impressive but I cannot say without putting the GTs in back to back.


bcowen said:


> Man, the cocaine in TX has _really_ degraded if it looks like that these days.


And here I thought it got better towards the border.


bcowen said:


> Was wondering where you'd run off to.      Hope the move is going OK?


Yes, moving to south Denver in March, upgrading to about 2.5x sq footage and I will have a small garage.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh good grief. You probably solder your shoelaces together every morning.


Shoes can have laces???? I generally wear Crocs or cowboy boots or sandals. Usually I have two cats wrap themselves around my feet in the morning and I wear them as house slippers.

Seriously though, I like a more solid connection but what do I know, your experience is probably far greater.    Design an amp and send it to me to critique.


----------



## DeweyCH

NGL cats as shoes sounds comfy as all hell.


----------



## therremans

I soldered my crimped wire terminals to the IEC socket lugs.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I have miniature irons if I am soldering SMD components.


Mini irons? Suitable for IEM work? I have a couple in desperate need of a recable. One's a BA, no way I'd even attempt that with my iron.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Mini irons? Suitable for IEM work? I have a couple in desperate need of a recable. One's a BA, no way I'd even attempt that with my iron.


I have some ancient Wellers that I built the power supplies for, let me look around and see if I can find an example. IEM work might be tricky unless you have an inspection microscope, I have one made by Nikon, dual ocular. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weller-WM1...097213&hash=item4b62b85ae0:g:tbsAAOSwasZctK7x

https://www.ebay.com/itm/American-O...705019?hash=item4b712396fb:g:8O0AAOSwljFd~THo

Oftentimes I can get by with one of these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quality-Op...4430b2815585a4003197|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Man, the cocaine in TX has _really_ degraded if it looks like that these days.



While I cannot comment on the current state of illicit contraband in our state, I can state that it is the ashes of our dearly departed pooch which crossed the Rainbow Bridge a couple of years ago.  I'm pretty sure I got her all back in the cedar and brass box after taking the pic.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I soldered my crimped wire terminals to the IEC socket lugs.


Good man, do not let some guy named Cowen push you around.  Oh and I am building him an extension for the DV because he has always been most generous with tubes. 21 year old Balvenie Portwood works as well, but this is Bill I am talking about.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 23, 2021)

I agree -- Bill is quite generous.  He sent me some fine tubes in exchange 'clean urine'.  Turns out they were my old tubes that he said measured poorly and offered to  dispose of them for me.  His generosity knows few bounds.   

(BTW - He said it was for a friend, of course.)


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I agree -- Bill is quite generous.  He sent me some fine tubes in exchange 'clean' urine.  Turns out they were my old tubes that he said measured poorly and said he would dispose of them for me.  His generosity knows few bounds.
> 
> (BTW - He said it was for a friend, of course.)


I wonder if he still lists his parole officer as a reference? I need to talk to him sometime about what NOT to do during a job interview. I do not believe tube hoarding counts as far as prior work experience either.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Shoes can have laces???? I generally wear Crocs or cowboy boots or sandals. Usually I have two cats wrap themselves around my feet in the morning and I wear them as house slippers.
> 
> Seriously though, I like a more solid connection but what do I know, your experience is probably far greater.    Design an amp and send it to me to critique.


Leave me alone.  I'm busy soldering my tubes into the sockets.


----------



## DeweyCH

How’s this for twisty wire?


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> How’s this for twisty wire?


looking much better, the peppermint twist.


----------



## Galapac (Feb 23, 2021)

Wait is that wire connected?
circled in green.


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> Wait is that wire connected?
> circled in green.


Not yet, I just set them in place and will solder when my baby goes to sleep.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well, the soldering is prettier, but I still don't have any right-channel sound. Any hints or thoughts from anyone?


----------



## DeweyCH

...I think I have the left and right channels switched on the 6sn7 socket... probably need to simply resolder them to the pot


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well, the soldering is prettier, but I still don't have any right-channel sound. Any hints or thoughts from anyone?


You gotta get your right leg working in tandem with your left leg so you can take a full step forward here.       The heater wiring is way much better though!


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> You gotta get your right leg working in tandem with your left leg so you can take a full step forward here.       The heater wiring is way much better though!


Well, it's playing. Both channels. Riiiiight back to the weird scaling of the right channel. Gotta be the pot. Still, nice and listenable and no static or grounding issues or anything of the sort. Actually sounds pretty fantastic if I get to a spot on the pot where both channels are roughly equal.


----------



## Ripper2860

You guys are soooo making my decision to buy a Valhalla 2 one of the smartest moves ever!  😆


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Well, it's playing. Both channels. Riiiiight back to the weird scaling of the right channel. Gotta be the pot. Still, nice and listenable and no static or grounding issues or anything of the sort. Actually sounds pretty fantastic if I get to a spot on the pot where both channels are roughly equal.


Is this the alps you had previously soldered to the shunt?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Is this the alps you had previously soldered to the shunt?


Nah, that one lost a pin when I was disassembling for this... marathon. This is a new 20k that I think I toasted.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You guys are soooo making my decision to buy a Valhalla 2 one of the smartest moves ever!  😆


Chicken.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ripper2860 said:


> You guys are soooo making my decision to buy a Valhalla 2 one of the smartest moves ever!  😆


I done learn't things tho.


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh snap, that little 10k stepped attenuator of mine is actually testing working. I'll throw that in place of the Alps in a bit and see if that clears things up.


----------



## DeweyCH

Seems to be working. No more tonight.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Seems to be working. No more tonight.


Oh good I stayed away long enough, all’s well that ends well


----------



## DeweyCH

Ooh today I can try out actually listening! Metal base Sylvania or brown base CBS, which should go first?


----------



## Paladin79

If it is not a CBS/Hytron 5692 I would go for the Sylvania but only if I did not have a Melz handy.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Ooh today I can try out actually listening! Metal base Sylvania or brown base CBS, which should go first?


Yes.


----------



## Paladin79

My early listening is a 56 Melz solid plate 1578, Tung Sol 5998, going into Focal Utopias and Incubus amp. The DV is still in my shop as I begin to plan Bill's extension box. Mitered corners may not work very well but i am going to try. I am still selecting cardboard.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My early listening is a 56 Melz solid plate 1578, Tung Sol 5998, going into Focal Utopias and Incubus amp. The DV is still in my shop as I begin to plan Bill's extension box. Mitered corners may not work very well but i am going to try. I am still selecting cardboard.


Please consider a marine-grade cardboard this time so it doesn't wrinkle up as much when I paint it baby Carolina blue.


----------



## Ripper2860

@Paladin79 -- Perhaps something like this will work for Bill...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Please consider a marine-grade cardboard this time so it doesn't wrinkle up as much when I paint it baby Carolina blue.


I am not sure you are worth the extra effort but we will see. At least the volume control can go on the end where it is supposed to be.  One way or the other I will build something this weekend.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> @Paladin79 -- Perhaps something like this will work for Bill...


The artwork might scare him I was thinking more of baby rabbits or daffodils, or even an antique. This is the right color and has little handles for carrying the amp from room to room.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> The artwork might scare him I was thinking more of baby rabbits or daffodils, or even an antique. This is the right color and has little handles for carrying the amp from room to room.


 Rope handles for nautical vibe? A huge brass anchor badge and some vintage navy-branded tubes.


----------



## therremans

Balsa is always an option for Bill.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Ooh today I can try out actually listening! Metal base Sylvania or brown base CBS, which should go first?


Anything non-GE........Start with brown/base CBS


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Anything non-GE........Start with brown/base CBS


Not even this GE 5692? What a shame.  I actually prefer it to my brown base CBS.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 24, 2021)

"I'm a little GE, short and stout..."

I cannot get that tune out of my head!!


----------



## jonathan c

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Rope handles for nautical vibe? A huge brass anchor badge and some vintage navy-branded tubes.


For @bcowen, what about a styrofoam cabinet so that the amp will float....U.S.S. Cowen...one could increase its buoyancy by omitting the volume knob and any related circuitry...


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Not even this GE 5692? What a shame.  I actually prefer it to my brown base CBS.


That one is fine; using the @bcowen method of delineation, that 5692 is pre-accountant era...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 24, 2021)

Styrofoam should work much better.  Here's Bill's first attempt -- the USS Cowen v1.


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> That one is fine; using the @bcowen method of delineation, that 5692 is pre-accountant era...


I actually sent him a GE 6J5GT as a gift and he returned it to me


----------



## tameral

I've been quite surprised with how little I can use the volume knob on my new darkvoice with my 6xx headphones.   I can turn the volume knob maybe a centimeter before being overwhelmed.  Of course, I could turn the DAC down below 0 decibel to get more range.  Is that advised?  It appears - despite the limited travel - that the sound is able to open up fully and isn't being restricted in any way.  Is that other people's experience with the darkvoice or do they advise differently?  Regards


----------



## therremans

tameral said:


> I've been quite surprised with how little I can use the volume knob on my new darkvoice with my 6xx headphones.   I can turn the volume knob maybe a centimeter before being overwhelmed.  Of course, I could turn the DAC down below 0 decibel to get more range.  Is that advised?  It appears - despite the limited travel - that the sound is able to open up fully and isn't being restricted in any way.  Is that other people's experience with the darkvoice or do they advise differently?  Regards


Unfortunately it is completely normal and the Chinese builder thought this was acceptable. I would always keep your source at 100% volume.


----------



## tameral

Thanks for the reply - I'll carry on with it


----------



## tameral

For kicks I've considered getting the Beyer DT880 600 ohm to pair with this just to see how that goes - but I'm really put off by the frequency response graph and am not a big fan of treble treble treble - maybe others have had good experiences with this darkvoice taming it?


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> For kicks I've considered getting the Beyer DT880 600 ohm to pair with this just to see how that goes - but I'm really put off by the frequency response graph and am not a big fan of treble treble treble - maybe others have had good experiences with this darkvoice taming it?


LOL welcome to the last two months of my life. I started trying to tame the DV's insane volume and ended up rebuilding like half of it.
Easiest thing to do for starters, IMO, is to replace the volume pot. A 20k pot (or stepped attenuator) will take care of the ear-bleeding volume issues. An Alps Blue will fit with a bit of finagling.

And FWIW, I have the amp-building and soldering skill of a toddler who's just eaten his weight in chocolate ice cream. It's perfectly doable.


----------



## tameral

Very cool.  For now I'm going to keep it stock - particularly if it doesn't really affect the sound quality in terms of attenuating / limiting the dynamics - but i wouldn't consider it a reasonable range for adjustment for sure and may take it to a tech to do some mods with it if it passes the test of time


----------



## therremans

tameral said:


> For kicks I've considered getting the Beyer DT880 600 ohm to pair with this just to see how that goes - but I'm really put off by the frequency response graph and am not a big fan of treble treble treble - maybe others have had good experiences with this darkvoice taming it?


It can be easily done. I would first consider swapping out the pads on Beyer's and use their graphs to see the freq response change. Another option is to use a neutral software equalization. I use a blend of both.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

DeweyCH said:


> LOL welcome to the last two months of my life. I started trying to tame the DV's insane volume and ended up rebuilding like half of it.
> Easiest thing to do for starters, IMO, is to replace the volume pot. A 20k pot (or stepped attenuator) will take care of the ear-bleeding volume issues. An Alps Blue will fit with a bit of finagling.
> 
> And FWIW, I have the amp-building and soldering skill of a toddler who's just eaten his weight in chocolate ice cream. It's perfectly doable.





therremans said:


> Unfortunately it is completely normal and the Chinese builder thought this was acceptable. I would always keep your source at 100% volume.





tameral said:


> I've been quite surprised with how little I can use the volume knob on my new darkvoice with my 6xx headphones.   I can turn the volume knob maybe a centimeter before being overwhelmed.  Of course, I could turn the DAC down below 0 decibel to get more range.  Is that advised?  It appears - despite the limited travel - that the sound is able to open up fully and isn't being restricted in any way.  Is that other people's experience with the darkvoice or do they advise differently?  Regards



Can you not use RCA _input_ attenuators?


----------



## DeweyCH

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Can you not use RCA _input_ attenuators?


I used a JDS Labs OL Switcher for a while... just a passive potentiometer between source and amp. Worked fine.


----------



## DeweyCH

Just a, uh... _totally hypothetical_ question, but was the weirdness I was experiencing with my volume (channels are imbalanced, basically) possibly something that a burnt or wrong resistor on the right channel could cause?


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Aren't many pots (except maybe Alps) inherently imbalanced? This is a tidbit from a competing hybrid amp designer:



> "The channel imbalance is because of the high gain and pots. From what the seller (...) told me he buys the pots in large and hand matches them and throws out the ones that measure even poorer."


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> The artwork might scare him I was thinking more of baby rabbits or daffodils, or even an antique. This is the right color and has little handles for carrying the amp from room to room.


nice bokeh


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Just a, uh... _totally hypothetical_ question, but was the weirdness I was experiencing with my volume (channels are imbalanced, basically) possibly something that a burnt or wrong resistor on the right channel could cause?


Possible, but unlikely.  You said there were some positions (with the old pot) where both channels were in balance, correct?  If so, that would point to the pot. If it was a bad or wrong part besides the pot, you likely would not have gotten the correct sound at any point in the pot's rotation.  Likely.  Anything is possible though.  I thought you got it working with the 2nd stepped attenuator?


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Aren't many pots (except maybe Alps) inherently imbalanced? This is a tidbit from a competing hybrid amp designer:



Most pots (including the Alps...the ones we're using anyway) will have some imbalance.  The Alps are just well regarded as they typically have very little imbalance for the money involved.   The only way I know of to get (close to?) perfect balance is with a stepped attenuator that is using very precisely matched resistors.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Styrofoam should work much better.  Here's Bill's first attempt -- the USS Cowen v1.


This is precisely why I requested marine-grade cardboard for the next one.


----------



## therremans

Tung-Sol’s products are very well regarded. But I can’t say the same about whoever supplied them with their solder. Starting to think they were sold some black market Russian solder . Just rid another tube of its microphonic troubles and noise by reflowing it @ 480C


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Tung-Sol’s products are very well regarded. But I can’t say the same about whoever supplied them with their solder. Starting to think they were sold some black market Russian solder . Just rid another tube of its microphonic troubles and noise by reflowing it @ 480C


I've become as suspicious of TungSols as I am of Fotons and Melz when it comes to the pin soldering.  Check out the pin soldering on these otherwise nice looking Bendix, especially the one on the left:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-...e&pageci=671cb21b-fa28-41ae-8120-07bfe20c6e82


----------



## qingcai

https://www.tubecad.com/2020/05/blog0504.htm

this page has some information about darkvoice 336


----------



## tameral

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Can you not use RCA _input_ attenuators?



With respect to placing a passive preamp between my Topping E30 and the Darkvoice - what would be the advantage of that over simply reducing the DAC output by 20 decibels from my macbook?  That would be diminishing the sound more so than the passive preamp could or whatever?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Possible, but unlikely.  You said there were some positions (with the old pot) where both channels were in balance, correct?  If so, that would point to the pot. If it was a bad or wrong part besides the pot, you likely would not have gotten the correct sound at any point in the pot's rotation.  Likely.  Anything is possible though.  I thought you got it working with the 2nd stepped attenuator?


Yeah, I thought so too. But the attenuator was making the same weirdness as before, so I dug into it a bit this evening. Resoldered the wire going from the right channel wiper to pin 1 in the socket, because it had a cold solder joint that cracked. Then I resoldered the power switch because it was shittily done.

Now I don't have any right channel sound at all. I'm... peeved. Is there anything channel-specific to the power switch? Could I have toasted it or poorly soldered it or something? Otherwise the only remaining option is to keep re-doing that pin in the 6sn7 socket, since it was one of the only 2 things I touched tonight.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I thought so too. But the attenuator was making the same weirdness as before, so I dug into it a bit this evening. Resoldered the wire going from the right channel wiper to pin 1 in the socket, because it had a cold solder joint that cracked. Then I resoldered the power switch because it was shittily done.
> 
> Now I don't have any right channel sound at all. I'm... peeved. Is there anything channel-specific to the power switch? Could I have toasted it or poorly soldered it or something? Otherwise the only remaining option is to keep re-doing that pin in the 6sn7 socket, since it was one of the only 2 things I touched tonight.


Nope.  The power switch either works or it doesn't.  If you're getting power/sound in the left channel, the problem isn't the power switch.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I thought so too. But the attenuator was making the same weirdness as before, so I dug into it a bit this evening. Resoldered the wire going from the right channel wiper to pin 1 in the socket, because it had a cold solder joint that cracked. Then I resoldered the power switch because it was shittily done.
> 
> Now I don't have any right channel sound at all. I'm... peeved. Is there anything channel-specific to the power switch? Could I have toasted it or poorly soldered it or something? Otherwise the only remaining option is to keep re-doing that pin in the 6sn7 socket, since it was one of the only 2 things I touched tonight.


Have you tinkered with the headphone jack?  A bad solder connection to it could easily be the culprit here.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Have you tinkered with the headphone jack?  A bad solder connection to it could easily be the culprit here.


I haven't, but I have somewhat messed around with the wires leading up to it. Mostly just to get them out of my way. I'll check on that. And thanks on the switch - glad to know it's fine.


----------



## therremans

Have you tried swapping the R/L RCAs around to make sure it’s not related to the input?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Have you tried swapping the R/L RCAs around to make sure it’s not related to the input?


Yeah, it's not. Just tried again to make sure.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, it's not. Just tried again to make sure.



Then it's most likely music related.  Put on some Marilyn Manson, and if that doesn't kick that right channel into submission nothing will.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Then it's most likely music related.  Put on some Marilyn Manson, and if that doesn't kick that right channel into submission nothing will.


Funny you mention that…

Ages ago I had an issue with a serious level imbalance in one of my BA IEMs. Tried all the usual suspects, no joy. Finally in a moment of pissed-offedness, I cranked the vol. to max while playing some random metal track. The offending BA made a quite audible "click" and all was well in the universe again.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I thought so too. But the attenuator was making the same weirdness as before, so I dug into it a bit this evening. Resoldered the wire going from the right channel wiper to pin 1 in the socket, because it had a cold solder joint that cracked. Then I resoldered the power switch because it was shittily done.
> 
> Now I don't have any right channel sound at all. I'm... peeved. Is there anything channel-specific to the power switch? Could I have toasted it or poorly soldered it or something? Otherwise the only remaining option is to keep re-doing that pin in the 6sn7 socket, since it was one of the only 2 things I touched tonight.


I'm thinking now it might be best to just step back and not touch anything until you get a replacement pot. With all the work done on it, the chances of something being warped/melted internally seem like the likely issue


----------



## Greendriver

I have just bought a sylvania 6as7ga. Seems to spit and crack a bit with my Darkvoice 336se. Is it not compatible?


----------



## Greendriver




----------



## DeweyCH

Greendriver said:


>


It should be fine with your DV. What driver tubes are you using? And a few folks here can speak to whether you may want to reflow the solder in its pins. Or just clean the pins with some contact cleaner


----------



## tameral (Feb 25, 2021)

Out of the suggestion in this thread, I'm going to experiment with a passive preamp in between my dark voice and E30 - and will report back if this combination proves superior in managing the volume knob issues of the darkvoice (vs lowering the dac from my comp vs leaving it as is with limited travel in volume).  I've gone with this product due to ease of return and no shipping cost.

Nobsound High Precision Passive Preamp Volume Controller VOL Control HiFi Preamplifier ALPS​
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GRLV7XG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## JKDJedi

Greendriver said:


> I have just bought a sylvania 6as7ga. Seems to spit and crack a bit with my Darkvoice 336se. Is it not compatible?


Dirty pins?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I thought so too. But the attenuator was making the same weirdness as before, so I dug into it a bit this evening. Resoldered the wire going from the right channel wiper to pin 1 in the socket, because it had a cold solder joint that cracked. Then I resoldered the power switch because it was shittily done.
> 
> Now I don't have any right channel sound at all. I'm... peeved. Is there anything channel-specific to the power switch? Could I have toasted it or poorly soldered it or something? Otherwise the only remaining option is to keep re-doing that pin in the 6sn7 socket, since it was one of the only 2 things I touched tonight.


Left and right channels are identical, this would be the time to use an ohmmeter to start checking from point to point to make sure you have continuity. Be sure the amp is unplugged and electrolytics are discharged.


----------



## Mr Trev

tameral said:


> Out of the suggestion in this thread, I'm going to experiment with a passive preamp in between my dark voice and E30 - and will report back if this combination proves superior in managing the volume knob issues of the darkvoice (vs lowering the dac from my comp vs leaving it as is with limited travel in volume).  I've gone with this product due to ease of return and no shipping cost.
> 
> Nobsound High Precision Passive Preamp Volume Controller VOL Control HiFi Preamplifier ALPS​
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GRLV7XG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Over on one of the Liquid Platinum threads there was some good discussion on going this route (apparently the LP has a huge gain issue, where you blow your eardrums out after barely moving the pot). Someone did measure and recommend a device. I don't remember what it was, but a search should find it


----------



## Deceneu808

IT'S ALIVEEEEE


----------



## DeweyCH

Man, that channel imbalance is weird. Oh well. I got my right channel back, got the attenuator set to a balanced level, and I'll use the OL Switcher to control volume for now.

Back to rolling:





Brown-base CBS 5692 and Tung-Sol 5998. Lovely combo.

Oh, and I think the issue probably is with the headphone jack. Changing the volume with the OL Switcher also makes it go out of balance in a similar fashion. For later.


----------



## DeweyCH

Also, the virtual center tap has rendered the need for the Fitz mod completely moot. Works great, probably easier to install (than an already-easy one)


----------



## therremans

You could add a new jack to the order list. I installed a switchcraft just for the hell of it.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> You could add a new jack to the order list. I installed a switchcraft just for the hell of it.


Once bitten, eh?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Man, that channel imbalance is weird. Oh well. I got my right channel back, got the attenuator set to a balanced level, and I'll use the OL Switcher to control volume for now.
> 
> Back to rolling:
> 
> ...


I really do not like using adapters like 3.5 mm to 1/4 inch, it appears you have one there I believe. I would suspect it before I wondered about the headphone jack itself.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> IT'S ALIVEEEEE


Is that a 5998 you re-soldered?


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Is that a 5998 you re-soldered?


Yes, the 4th time


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I really do not like using adapters like 3.5 mm to 1/4 inch, it appears you have one there I believe. I would suspect it before I wondered about the headphone jack itself.


Uh. Wow. OK, it's the adapter and/or cable and/or headphones... my Auteurs are balanced and lovely with the stock ZMF 1/4" cable.

Banging my head against the wall for days because reasons, I suppose.


----------



## DeweyCH

Welp, this sounds fabulous. I CAN'T BELIEVE I rewired half of this over and over and over again because my Sextetts and their adapter were acting the fool.

CBS: Total keeper.
Next up:





This is a lot more fun than running headlong into walls of my own making.


----------



## DeweyCH

Power tube: TS 5998
Output tube: 2x GEC L63 in a 6SN7 --> dual 6J5 adapter

Outstanding sound. Really well balanced between the two GECs. Clarity is excellent. I think it's a little more mid-forward than the CBS; there's a lot of real detail and clarity around the piano in "A Day In The Life," and the horns and cellos have real heft to them. Vocals are slightly recessed in comparison, but not by much and not in an unpleasant way.

I also think I heard a harp I've never heard before in this song.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes, the 4th time


I had a hunch they were salvageable.    Soldering can be difficult enough when you can see what you are working on, inside those pins the wires could be very corroded so I give them a lot of extra cleaning.


----------



## DeweyCH

For the sake of posterity, what I ended up doing to this was:

- Replace the stock pot with a 50k Alps + 47k shunt
- Disconnect the pre-outs
- Replace the Alps with a 10k stepped attenuator
- Add two caps to the 6SN7 socket (the "Fitz" mod)
- Replace all of the resistors on the 6SN7 socket
- Replace both octal sockets with Belton Micalex
- Replace the heater filaments with twisted solid-core wire
- Replace the wirewound resistors in the very back of the unit
- Replace the power switch
- Remove the "Fitz" mod
- Create a virtual center tap

I think I'm ready to tackle a Crack now.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 25, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Power tube: TS 5998
> Output tube: 2x GEC L63 in a 6SN7 --> dual 6J5 adapter
> 
> Outstanding sound. Really well balanced between the two GECs. Clarity is excellent. I think it's a little more mid-forward than the CBS; there's a lot of real detail and clarity around the piano in "A Day In The Life," and the horns and cellos have real heft to them. Vocals are slightly recessed in comparison, but not by much and not in an unpleasant way.
> ...


I believe my loaner amp just sold or I would send it your way. I need to build up another sometime so maybe next time round.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Feb 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I had a hunch they were salvageable.    Soldering can be difficult enough when you can see what you are working on, inside those pins the wires could be very corroded so I give them a lot of extra cleaning.


I'll give it a go on the other one in the weekend. I don't wanna take this one out yet, what if it stops working lmao.
I have to set up my HT cause I moved the receiver and I had to redo the whole cable management in the room, shorten some wires, making others longer, I'm still waiting on some banana plugs and a longer HDMI cable BUT I am pretty sure I'll get the other one going also in the weekend after I'm done with these. I owe you a beer


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> I'll give it a go on the other one in the weekend. I don't wanna take this one out yet, what if it stops working lmao.
> I have to set up my HT cause I moved the receiver and I had to redo the whole cable management in the room, shorten some wires, making others longer, I'm still waiting on some banana plugs and a longer HDMI cable BUT I am pretty sure I'll get the other one going also in the weekend after I'm done with these. I owe you a beer


I owe quite a few people in this thread quite a few beers.


----------



## therremans

The most simple solution is often overlooked. Glad you’re back in business.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I'll give it a go on the other one in the weekend. I don't wanna take this one out yet, what if it stops working lmao.
> I have to set up my HT cause I moved the receiver and I had to redo the whole cable management in the room, shorten some wires, making others longer, I'm still waiting on some banana plugs and a longer HDMI cable BUT I am pretty sure I'll get the other one going also in the weekend after I'm done with these. I owe you a beer


I tend to build my own cables as needed, and I have even built hdmi cables in the past but I never want to do that again.   Just drink an extra beer as you listen to the 5998 and pretend that @bcowen paid for it, then it would be a miracle beer.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I owe quite a few people in this thread quite a few beers.


You are in the states and probably know a few good craft beers, hmm I need to help you more.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Banging my head against the wall for days because reasons, I suppose.


Don't it feel good when you finally can stop


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> You are in the states and probably know a few good craft beers, hmm I need to help you more.


More than that I’m an IPA snob in New England. Tree House. Trillium. Alchemist. Lawson’s. Maine Beer Co. 

Now I’m thirsty.


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> More than that I’m an IPA snob in New England. Tree House. Trillium. Alchemist. Lawson’s. Maine Beer Co.
> 
> Now I’m thirsty.


Not much of an IPA guy myself, but I did just find a great Alberta brewed dopplebock


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Not much of an IPA guy myself, but I did just find a great Alberta brewed dopplebock


You might enjoy some stuff from Urban Chestnut out of St. Louis. Mostly Bavarian style beers done really really well. Their Schnicklefritz is a fantastic Bavarian hefe.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I had a hunch they were salvageable.    Soldering can be difficult enough when you can see what you are working on, inside those pins the wires could be very corroded so I give them a lot of extra cleaning.


This gives me hope on one of my tubes I've resoldered 3 times already   ..maybe..the FOURTH will BE With Me


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> This gives me hope on one of my tubes I've resoldered 3 times already   ..maybe..the FOURTH will BE With Me


What is the tube?  You know I would help if you do not get it yourself.


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh snap and my stabilized Verites shipped?!? Is a good day!


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Oh snap and my stabilized Verites shipped?!? Is a good day!


You are going to run Verites with the DV or do you  have other headphone amps?


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> You are going to run Verites with the DV or do you  have other headphone amps?


Gonna run them with the DV and my Liquid Platinum. Also a Crack once I build it.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Gonna run them with the DV and my Liquid Platinum. Also a Crack once I build it.


Very nice. The Crack will give you some good experience and it is made to be modified. I always did taller cabinets to support other output caps and I got all inputs and outputs off the top plate.


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice. The Crack will give you some good experience and it is made to be modified. I always did taller cabinets to support other output caps and I got all inputs and outputs off the top plate.


I'm probably gonna keep mine pretty close to stock, although I have a Speedball I'll install after a while (gonna listen to the Bottlehead folks and listen to it stock for a few weeks/months before adding Speedball)

Edit to add: but that is some serious hotness you've built there.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 25, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I'm probably gonna keep mine pretty close to stock, although I have a Speedball I'll install after a while (gonna listen to the Bottlehead folks and listen to it stock for a few weeks/months before adding Speedball)


I bought two, built them both stock then went back and forth so I was able to hear and measure any improvements.  I helped an employee with his BH Crack, and then he heard several of my Incubus amps as did a young lady who works for me. I donated an Incubus to them after a while since they kept drooling over the ones they shipped.   I felt like I was torturing them otherwise.

A Google photo search for Steampunk Bottlehead Crack shows some of my work.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I bought two, built them both stock then went back and forth so I was able to hear and measure any improvements.  I helped an employee with his BH Crack, and then he heard several of my Incubus amps as did a young lady who works for me. I donated an Incubus to them after a while since they kept drooling over the ones they shipped.   I felt like I was torturing them otherwise.
> 
> A Google photo search for Steampunk Bottlehead Crack shows some of my work.


I've checked that out before at your recommendation. You do outstanding work.


----------



## DeweyCH

DeweyCH said:


> Power tube: TS 5998
> Output tube: 2x GEC L63 in a 6SN7 --> dual 6J5 adapter
> 
> Outstanding sound. Really well balanced between the two GECs. Clarity is excellent. I think it's a little more mid-forward than the CBS; there's a lot of real detail and clarity around the piano in "A Day In The Life," and the horns and cellos have real heft to them. Vocals are slightly recessed in comparison, but not by much and not in an unpleasant way.
> ...


I can't stop listening to this combo. Seriously, it's magical.


----------



## qingcai

not sure if anybody doing this. put a laptop close tube does generate lots of noise.


----------



## qingcai

qingcai said:


> not sure if anybody doing this. put a laptop close tube does generate lots of noise.


looks like the temp rise too high.


----------



## Galapac

Yeah I think that would just cook the filaments and shorten life...just move the laptop or get a longer cord.


----------



## Galapac




----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


>



That's @Ripper2860 trying to be a human Hershey's Kiss.  I had no idea he was actually marketing the things...


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> What is the tube?  You know I would help if you do not get it yourself.


Thanks, it's traveled to North Carolina and brought back to life there, working great for months then gone out again (recently) I'll zap it this weekend. rebranded 53' Sylvania 6SN7GT (Motorola)


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 25, 2021)

qingcai said:


> not sure if anybody doing this. put a laptop close tube does generate lots of noise.


You might be a redneck....


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, it's traveled to North Carolina and brought back to life there, working great for months then gone out again (recently) I'll zap it this weekend. rebranded 53' Sylvania 6SN7GT (Motorola)


Grrrrrr.....that's a very bad, bad boy.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> That's @Ripper2860 trying to be a human Hershey's Kiss.  I had no idea he was actually marketing the things...


@Ripper2860 may have a diverse experience with foil.


----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


> not sure if anybody doing this. put a laptop close tube does generate lots of noise.


Are those tubes on death row...draped for the electric chair?...


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


>


You too can be a Sylvania 6922...


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I tend to build my own cables as needed, and I have even built hdmi cables in the past but I never want to do that again.   Just drink an extra beer as you listen to the 5998 and pretend that @bcowen paid for it, then it would be a miracle beer.


Yeah built myself a sort of bench to sit my LRC speakers and a cabinet under for the AVR. It's been sitting on my desk for about 3 months now and it took a lot of space.
The previous cables were 16 feet long and I had to make them shorter just for the sake of visuals but the problem is my surround were 33 feet long and I needed 3 feet more for each to reach the back of the unit. Unfortunately I didn't have another 0.75mm cable so I soldered about 5 feet of a 2.5mm cable to each. It should be fine

I'll drink a beer for each one of you


----------



## qingcai

jonathan c said:


> Are those tubes on death row...draped for the electric chair?...


removed, still ok


----------



## DeweyCH (Feb 26, 2021)

Good morning! Today's first combination: the TS 5998 and a new-to-me Sylvania 6SN7GT metal base:






Disappointingly there's a little bit of a hum in the left channel with the Sylvania. Not sure if that's the tube or the fact that I haven't yet elevated the heaters. Either way, it sounds decent. Certainly not to the reputation that this tube has, and that dual GEC L63 blows it clean out of the water. Ah well, I'll let it keep warming up and see if it sounds better over time.

EDIT: Yeah it sounds better than decent. Doesn't have the heft of the GECs, but it's a touch more detailed. Very nice sound. Still prefer the GECs. I keep forgetting to turn on exclusive mode before I make disparaging comments about tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Two more quick tries:





Pair of Visseaux 6J5MGs. Hard to determine because one has a significant hum. Will see what's up with that when I have more time. So, on to:





Foton 6H8C. Really sounds nice. Detail is not in the same ballpark as the CBS or the Sylvania or L63s, but it's got a "fun" sound that's really solid for rock (Foo Fighters' distortion has some more bite than I'm used to hearing).


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Two more quick tries:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I vote for the Visseaux, simply because they look like beer cans


----------



## SHIMACM

DeweyCH said:


> Good morning! Today's first combination: the TS 5998 and a new-to-me Sylvania 6SN7GT metal base:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Today I tried the combination GEC L63 and Chatham 6as7g and it is exceptional.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Good morning! Today's first combination: the TS 5998 and a new-to-me Sylvania 6SN7GT metal base:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a GT or W?  I have some W's with the phenolic base that are quite good, but I've never heard the metal base W that's supposed to be better still.  Pricey as hell too.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Today I tried the combination GEC L63 and Chatham 6as7g and it is exceptional.


Agree.  Really nice pairing with those two (or, excuse me, three ).


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Two more quick tries:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Foton is most definitely a party tube.  @Mr Trev can provide some heavy metal recommendations if needed.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Is that a GT or W?  I have some W's with the phenolic base that are quite good, but I've never heard the metal base W that's supposed to be better still.  Pricey as hell too.


It's a W. Sounds very very good.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> I vote for the Visseaux, simply because they look like beer cans


And as “beer cans”, I like how they dominate and block out the power tube. One thing, if the ABV % rises, will the amp buzz get louder?....


----------



## DeweyCH




----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


>


Nice!  Perhaps you should send it to me so I can test it for you and make sure it's working properly.   And if it's not, I can throw it away here and save the unnecessary return shipping cost.


----------



## therremans

I decided to install the temp control module today. I mounted it underneath the bottom plate for simplicity and space/clearance reasons. I will be running it through some stress tests to ensure it's programmed correctly and cooling efficiently. It stayed very cool at max speed and I want to achieve that but at silent fan speeds. I much prefer how this is an all in one unit now with an AC jack. If I didn't know, I wouldn't even know that it's on. I even added some hot glue as this is a Darkvoice.


----------



## qingcai




----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


>


Much better without the foil 😜!


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I decided to install the temp control module today. I mounted it underneath the bottom plate for simplicity and space/clearance reasons. I will be running it through some stress tests to ensure it's programmed correctly and cooling efficiently. It stayed very cool at max speed and I want to achieve that but at silent fan speeds. I much prefer how this is an all in one unit now with an AC jack. If I didn't know, I wouldn't even know that it's on. I even added some hot glue as this is a Darkvoice.


You must be skilled:  no soldering iron burns on the fingertips....🤬—>😀 🎶


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The Foton is most definitely a party tube.  @Mr Trev can provide some heavy metal recommendations if needed.


Actually, if metal is what you're after I'd recommend a Voskhod 6N23



jonathan c said:


> And as “beer cans”, I like how they dominate and block out the power tube. One thing, if the ABV % rises, will the amp buzz get louder?....


Personally I like the big glowing power tube. Anybody try to convert the DV to DC? That'd be an excuse to stuff a big glowy rectifier tube in there too…


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Today I tried the combination GEC L63 and Chatham 6as7g and it is exceptional.


+1 great combo.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 27, 2021)

I have started the  DV wooden cabinet extension for @bcowen , it will have a quarter inch bottom so I am allowing for that. Outside of cabinet, tiger maple, inside black limba, and the bottom could be cherry, walnut, or maple. I will have to look through my stock. Bill will do final sanding and finish but I may be able to show it off with some mineral spirits later to give you an idea of the look. I will use a dark wood for splines.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have started the  DV wooden cabinet extension for @bcowen , it will have a quarter inch bottom so I am allowing for that. Outside of cabinet, tiger maple, inside black limba, and the bottom could be cherry, walnut, or maple. I will have to look through my stock. Bill will do final sanding and finish but I may be able to show it off with some mineral spirits later to give you an idea of the look. I will use a dark wood for splines.


Sweet!  Now I just need to figure out which feet to put under it.  Go big or go home, right?


----------



## therremans

_Tung-Sol VT-94A, 6J5G, 6J5GT_

I noticed that the Tung-Sols have a slightly different construction that I was unaware of. So I wanted to compare the tubes and show the differences. The VT-94A lacks the little spade on the top of the filament and most notably they have different getters. For sound, I could only compare the VT-94A to the 6J5GT as I only own a single 6J5G. It is likely that the G/GT sound the same but I cannot verify it today. The VT-94A is an overall better sounding tube with much more transparency/details and outstanding instrument separation. These are some of my favorite neutral sounding and revealing tubes.


The VT-94A did a much better job at channel separation of the saxophones. The actuation of the instrument valves is audible .The sound creates a bubble and can lull you into intoxication. You want to keep listening. 




_Tung-Sol 6J5GT - horizontal foil getter_




_Tung-Sol 6J5G (left), VT-94A (right)_




_Tung-Sol 6J5G - horizontal foil getter (same as GT ver.)






Tung-Sol VT-94A - vertical octagon foil getter_


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 27, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Now I just need to figure out which feet to put under it.  Go big or go home, right?


ugh, pointy things.



Here is @bcowen DV extension built to his specs. I did add purple heart splines just to give it some class. It just has a rough sanding and some mineral spirits applied but after final sanding and tung oil the stripes will really pop. Walnut bottom panel. I made it just a fraction oversized to allow for final sanding. Oh and I need to notch the front and back to make up for the front and back plates protruding a bit, it will sit very flush when finished.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> ugh, pointy things.


Looking great, what is your plan on fastening it to the chassis?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 27, 2021)

therremans said:


> Looking great, what is your plan on fastening it to the chassis?


Bill has some 3m adhesive patches he will use after he does the final work, once in place and cured the amp is not going anywhere.  I am using a different style for myself since I will be using single gang volume pots. Naturally Finnegan helped, Bill might find a stray whisker. I used a walnut bottom and at this point nothing is sanded.


----------



## Galapac

You could always leave it as a drop in for quick access to the innards but just need to be careful when picking it up.
@bcowen - Are you going to bottom vent the DV or figure all the heat will come out of the top portion?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ugh, pointy things.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is @bcowen DV extension built to his specs. I did add purple heart splines just to give it some class. It just has a rough sanding and some mineral spirits applied but after final sanding and tung oil the stripes will really pop. Walnut bottom panel. I made it just a fraction oversized to allow for final sanding. Oh and I need to notch the front and back to make up for the front and back plates protruding a bit, it will sit very flush when finished.


LOL!  If they're pointy enough, they don't slide around...on wood.  I guess I could use some sorbothane pucks instead, and you'll know that's happened when you look out the window and see pigs flying around.   

I'll use the same Danish oil I used on my mini-rack, and once it has dried I'll apply a coat of Renaissance paste wax.  The new base and the rack should match perfectly.  But wait....did you say something about sanding?  Manual labor?  Oh my.....


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> You could always leave it as a drop in for quick access to the innards but just need to be careful when picking it up.
> @bcowen - Are you going to bottom vent the DV or figure all the heat will come out of the top portion?


Bill wanted me to leave the bottom solid for now so he can experiment. Mine may well be bottom vented only but a nice large airspace and one of my power supplies subbed for what is there anyway.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 27, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  If they're pointy enough, they don't slide around...on wood.  I guess I could use some sorbothane pucks instead, and you'll know that's happened when you look out the window and see pigs flying around.
> 
> I'll use the same Danish oil I used on my mini-rack, and once it has dried I'll apply a coat of Renaissance paste wax.  The new base and the rack should match perfectly.  But wait....did you say something about sanding?  Manual labor?  Oh my.....


I use the exact same products but mostly clear and golden oak Danish Oil. I love that wax, museum grade. Four types of wood used in this build, and yes you have to do final sanding, I did hit it with some 120 grit just to see how the splines turned out.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looking great, what is your plan on fastening it to the chassis?


3M VHB tape that I'll put between the bottom flange of the DV and the base.  It's a double sided thin foam tape, and it won't come apart even if I want it to.  The adhesive is so strong that it's being used in some automotive applications in place of welding and/or rivets.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> 3M VHB tape that I'll put between the bottom flange of the DV and the base.  It's a double sided thin foam tape, and it won't come apart even if I want it to.  The adhesive is so strong that it's being used in some automotive applications in place of welding and/or rivets.



Yes, 3M is good stuff. I also heard about it being used on door panels. We used it when I was in the automotive painting and bodywork industry.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I use the exact same products but mostly clear and golden oak Danish Oil. I love that wax, museum grade. Four types of wood used in this build, and yes you have to do final sanding, I did hit it with some 120 grit just to see how the splines turned out.


Believe it or not, I use that same wax on my nickel plated guns, this or Flitz. Amazing stuff.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> You could always leave it as a drop in for quick access to the innards but just need to be careful when picking it up.
> @bcowen - Are you going to bottom vent the DV or figure all the heat will come out of the top portion?


I'll add some ventilation in the bottom cover, just haven't decided if it will be some drilled holes for passive convection cooling or if I'll put the fan back in there.  I want to see what heat reduction results from the resistor change that @L0rdGwyn is doing to your amp. I plan on copying him because I'm very talented at copying stuff (just ask @Paladin79 ).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 3M VHB tape that I'll put between the bottom flange of the DV and the base.  It's a double sided thin foam tape, and it won't come apart even if I want it to.  The adhesive is so strong that it's being used in some automotive applications in place of welding and/or rivets.


Does that tape compress down much? The gap between the metal frame and the front and back panel looks to be right at 2 mm, with that along the sides there may not be much of a gap to fill, I will look around for some you gave me and maybe only allow 1 mm for front and back plates. That is about all I need to do and my end of this project is done.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Does that tape compress down much? The gap between the metal frame and the front and back panel looks to be right at 2 mm, with that along the sides there may not be much of a gap to fill, I will look around for some you gave me and maybe only allow 1 mm for front and back plates. That is about all I need to do and my end of this project is done.


Yes, it will compress to probably about half its original thickness with the weight of the DV. 1 mm would be about perfect I think.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, it will compress to probably about half its original thickness with the weight of the DV. 1 mm would be about perfect I think.


I will get it dialed in tomorrow, if need be you may have to file the grove down a bit, if I overdo it you may have a gap in the front and back.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'll add some ventilation in the bottom cover, just haven't decided if it will be some drilled holes for passive convection cooling or if I'll put the fan back in there.  I want to see what heat reduction results from the resistor change that @L0rdGwyn is doing to your amp. I plan on copying him because I'm very talented at copying stuff (just ask @Paladin79 ).


I have not run my DV for more than a half hour I will just take your word they run hot. Once all my changes are made I will listen to it most likely, I guess. Once your extension is done I need to build more amps. My loaner may be off the market.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> I'll add some ventilation in the bottom cover, just haven't decided if it will be some drilled holes for passive convection cooling or if I'll put the fan back in there.  I want to see what heat reduction results from the resistor change that @L0rdGwyn is doing to your amp. I plan on copying him because I'm very talented at copying stuff (just ask @Paladin79 ).



The Mills resistors and replacement gyrator caps arrived today, but my Mouser order is delayed, so going to be a little longer until I can test it out.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 28, 2021)

So I realized I actually had the terminals I needed to make the resistor change in the DarkVoice, derp.  Still need my Mouser order for the power supply changes but figured I'd go ahead and swap out the resistors.

Here is my solution to the hot resistor problem.  Had to reroute the output wiring and the ground bus.  Got rid of the aluminum-housed resistors, put some solder lug terminals on the standoffs instead, and used three 3.9K 12W NOS Mills non-inductive wirewounds in parallel.  1.3K cathode resistance with the 36W of rated power dissipation and they are no longer attached to the chassis by metal contact.



I have been running the amp for a little over an hour now.  With the old setup, top plate was hitting around 40C and the interior of the chassis 48-50C.

Top plate still comes to around 36-37C, but floating my thermocouple on the interior of the chassis, air temperature only hits around 37-38C, that's a 12C improvement.  I'll take it.



Sounds really good too with a National Union 6SN7GT and Western Electric 421A.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> So I realized I actually had the terminals I needed to make the resistor change in the DarkVoice, derp.  Still need my Mouser order for the power supply changes but figured I'd go ahead and swap out the resistors.
> 
> Here is my solution to the hot resistor problem.  Had to reroute the output wiring and the ground bus.  Got rid of the aluminum-housed resistors, put some solder lug terminals on the standoffs instead, and used three 3.9K 12W NOS Mills non-inductive wirewounds in parallel.  1.3K cathode resistance with the 36W of rated power dissipation and they are no longer attached to the chassis by metal contact.
> 
> ...


Would you be able to show the terminals? Would these be able to be installed in a stock Darkvoice, replacing the 25W aluminum heatsink resistors?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 28, 2021)

therremans said:


> Would you be able to show the terminals? Would these be able to be installed in a stock Darkvoice, replacing the 25W aluminum heatsink resistors?


Here is a final look at the @bcowen extension box, I notched the front and back to allow for the front and back plate overhang.  As I said earlier my power resistors will be mounted down inside the box on a heat sink, along with my own power supply.  I was not happy with the way three of the splines turned out so I redid them. My box build will be very different and look more like the front and back of my Incubus amps.
Solder terminals can look like this only these are six lug. The 25 watt resistor was replaced by three resistors in parallel whose value went from 1k ohms to 1.3k, wattage capability is 36 instead of 25 watts. I will go about this a different way


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Solder terminals can look like this only these are six lug. The 25 watt resistor was replaced by three resistors in parallel whose value went from 1k ohms to 1.3k, wattage capability is 36 instead of 25 watts. I will go about this a different way


Ahh okay. I’ve never seen those. I had purchased these as a drop in replacement.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 28, 2021)

therremans said:


> Ahh okay. I’ve never seen those. I had purchased these as a drop in replacement.


They are pretty similar to what is in there now. I use such resistors but here is another version of the same thing but they do take up some space lol. These are serious wire wound resistors, enamel coated with ceramic end caps, very flame retardant and they run quite cool.

Terminal strips can be found on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Terminal-Str...1&keywords=solder+lugs&qid=1614544142&sr=8-17


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Would you be able to show the terminals? Would these be able to be installed in a stock Darkvoice, replacing the 25W aluminum heatsink resistors?


That's what I'll be doing. Staying with the stock value of 1k (as mine doesn't have the gyrator boards), so I'll be using 3 of the Mills at 3k in parallel (per side). Mine might be oriented a little differently than what @L0rdGwyn did -- I'll have to play with them once they get here to see for sure, but otherwise should look pretty much the same as what he did.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That's what I'll be doing. Staying with the stock value of 1k (as mine doesn't have the gyrator boards), so I'll be using 3 of the Mills at 3k in parallel (per side). Mine might be oriented a little differently than what @L0rdGwyn did -- I'll have to play with them once they get here to see for sure, but otherwise should look pretty much the same as what he did.



Think for yourself lol, I know you can solder and don’t just tack leads to the side of a bus wire.🙀

I will ship your extension box early next week, the would chipped a little since I was using the router pretty close to the edge but you can sand that out, I got out some of the 3M tape you gave me and you may want to drop the cutouts down just a bit with a file anyway. The gap is pretty close to where it should be and honestly the box is pretty much spot on, I ran sample pieces before doing your cuts.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> Here is a final look at the @bcowen extension box, I notched the front and back to allow for the front and back plate overhang.  As I said earlier my power resistors will be mounted down inside the box on a heat sink, along with my own power supply.  I was not happy with the way three of the splines turned out so I redid them. My box build will be very different and look more like the front and back of my Incubus amps.
> Solder terminals can look like this only these are six lug. The 25 watt resistor was replaced by three resistors in parallel whose value went from 1k ohms to 1.3k, wattage capability is 36 instead of 25 watts. I will go about this a different way


it's better to cut a square hole on table. then put the amp on the hole.


----------



## Paladin79

I will let Bill cut a hole in one of his own tables then.    My cost of materials was maybe $20 and matches some shelves he has. Mine will look more like this when completed, and
 I may move the switch to the back.


----------



## bcowen

qingcai said:


> it's better to cut a square hole on table. then put the amp on the hole.


Better?  Depends on what you mean by _better_, but nothing about that sounds better for me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Think for yourself lol, I know you can solder and don’t just tack leads to the side of a bus wire.🙀



Who said anything about soldering?  I was just going to use these:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The gap is pretty close to where it should be and honestly the box is pretty much spot on, I ran sample pieces before doing your cuts.



*This* part I like.     Thanks!!!!


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> So I realized I actually had the terminals I needed to make the resistor change in the DarkVoice, derp.  Still need my Mouser order for the power supply changes but figured I'd go ahead and swap out the resistors.
> 
> Here is my solution to the hot resistor problem.  Had to reroute the output wiring and the ground bus.  Got rid of the aluminum-housed resistors, put some solder lug terminals on the standoffs instead, and used three 3.9K 12W NOS Mills non-inductive wirewounds in parallel.  1.3K cathode resistance with the 36W of rated power dissipation and they are no longer attached to the chassis by metal contact.
> 
> ...


Nice!!  In American (  ), that's a 22+ degree temp drop which is a pretty substantial benefit.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> So I realized I actually had the terminals I needed to make the resistor change in the DarkVoice, derp.  Still need my Mouser order for the power supply changes but figured I'd go ahead and swap out the resistors.
> 
> Here is my solution to the hot resistor problem.  Had to reroute the output wiring and the ground bus.  Got rid of the aluminum-housed resistors, put some solder lug terminals on the standoffs instead, and used three 3.9K 12W NOS Mills non-inductive wirewounds in parallel.  1.3K cathode resistance with the 36W of rated power dissipation and they are no longer attached to the chassis by metal contact.
> 
> ...


If I had a custom built amp that shot out 7.1v (heater) at 110v outlet (wall) ..what would that say of that build? Just curious....


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> If I had a custom built amp that shot out 7.1v (heater) at 110v outlet (wall) ..what would that say of that build? Just curious....


Filament voltage can be plus or minus at least .6 volts. I did not look closely at your Fluke meter last night when you were asking questions but I just did. I would have figured it measured true RMS but not so. Maybe this helps...

The *peak* value is the highest voltage that the waveform will ever reach, like the *peak* is the highest point on a mountain. The *RMS* (*Root-Mean-Square*) value is the effective value of the total waveform. It is equal to the level of the DC signal that would provide the same average power as the periodic signal.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Filament voltage can be plus or minus at least .6 volts. I did not look closely at your Fluke meter last night when you were asking questions but I just did. I would have figured it measured true RMS but not so. Maybe this helps...
> 
> The *peak* value is the highest voltage that the waveform will ever reach, like the *peak* is the highest point on a mountain. The *RMS* (*Root-Mean-Square*) value is the effective value of the total waveform. It is equal to the level of the DC signal that would provide the same average power as the periodic signal.


What ever that means.... I mean Darkvoice is considered weak for having a 7.1 v  heater yet other builds not? o.O


----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


> it's better to cut a square hole on table. then put the amp on the hole.


But the amp “footprint” is rectangular...🪚🤔


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> What ever that means.... I mean Darkvoice is considered weak for having a 7.1 v  heater yet other builds not? o.O


That is a very small part of the design but I wish you well. Bye


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Would you be able to show the terminals? Would these be able to be installed in a stock Darkvoice, replacing the 25W aluminum heatsink resistors?



I will show a pick sometime soon, sorry on night shift for a few days.  But like @bcowen said, you would use three 3K 12W resistors in parallel for the stock circuit.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> If I had a custom built amp that shot out 7.1v (heater) at 110v outlet (wall) ..what would that say of that build? Just curious....



Is this hypothetical or a real world amplifier?  The heater supply voltage is just one part, it is hard to judge the rest of the design based just on that.  It could be fixed I am sure. The issue with the DarkVoice isn't just that the heaters are over voltage, it is that they lack a proper center tap and the heater leads are not twisted, which causes the widely reported hum issue.  These two things are tube amp design 101, beginner type stuff that should be included in every design.  I was very surprised to find that, otherwise I would have just thought the DarkVoice was just very budget, everything else was expected.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 28, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Is this hypothetical or a real world amplifier?  The heater supply voltage is just one part, it is hard to judge the rest of the design based just on that.  It could be fixed I am sure. The issue with the DarkVoice isn't just that the heaters are over voltage, it is that they lack a proper center tap and the heater leads are not twisted, which causes the widely reported hum issue.  These two things are tube amp design 101, beginner type stuff that should be included in every design.  I was very surprised to find that, otherwise I would have just thought the DarkVoice was just very budget, everything else was expected.


I agree, it could be fixed.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> I agree, it could be fixed.



I am so curious what this custom amp is now...


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 1, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I am so curious what this custom amp is now...


One of mine.
I do not discuss design as I have explained to you before.
I mostly bought a DV so I could get dimensions correct on an extension box for a friend and it is done so it is time to move on to other projects.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I will let Bill cut a hole in one of his own tables then.    My cost of materials was maybe $20 and matches some shelves he has. Mine will look more like this when completed, and I may move the switch to the back.


Was this a DV mod or one of your from-scratch amps (Incubus, yes?)? OOC, if you were going for something like this, is there much of anything in the Darkvoice you'd actually keep, since there's custom... uh... let's see, top plate, case, switches, looks like a transformer... everything.

And with the dual-mono design, is the goal of that primarily to dial in balance for people with unbalanced hearing and to get the most out of otherwise good-sounding tubes that have gone wonky with their balance?

Oh, and do you ever build an integrated DAC into your designs?

(They're all very cool, I'm genuinely curious)


----------



## DeweyCH

qingcai said:


> it's better to cut a square hole on table. then put the amp on the hole.


This seems... silly. Although it does make me kind of want to play with the idea of building an old-school console with, like, a Darkvoice as the amp and maybe dropping my Dual 1019 into it. Although putting a headphone amp into a console would be ridiculously stupid. I'm sure there's some kickass Bottlehead S.E.X. console builds out there.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 1, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Was this a DV mod or one of your from-scratch amps (Incubus, yes?)? OOC, if you were going for something like this, is there much of anything in the Darkvoice you'd actually keep, since there's custom... uh... let's see, top plate, case, switches, looks like a transformer... everything.
> 
> And with the dual-mono design, is the goal of that primarily to dial in balance for people with unbalanced hearing and to get the most out of otherwise good-sounding tubes that have gone wonky with their balance?
> 
> ...


That is an Incubus I built for a friend, it shows the left and right volume pots. I use dual pots for a few reasons. All my amps are one of a kind and I do not plan to do brushed copper ever again lol. Either my next Incubus or the DV mod will have a spalted maple cabinet with purpleheart splines.

I like to be able to adjust each channel so I can emphasize an artist or musical instruments. In the event dual triode tubes do not age the same on each triode, I can adjust. My hearing is not as good in my right ear most likely because of use of guns when I was younger.  I have not decided on VU meters but I may add those whenever I do get around to the DV mod. With dual pots they help but stepped pots can be a good indicator as well.

I have not decided on keeping the transformer yet because I have some I really like. I will use the top plate and sides but the sides will not show. The bottom will be open on the DV. I will look at quality of components when I tear the DV down but I generally use Neutrik female RCA's and 1/4 inch TRS jacks. I may use some of the wire but I will be doing bonded twisted pair for the filament wires and I may use some samples I just received elsewhere. I may keep a few caps and resistors but hard to say till I get to that point. I keep a pretty good selection in my shop and I am partial to Mundorf oil filled silver/gold caps. If the cabinet looks pretty enough I may just do a combo switch and IEC socket on the back.

Oh and I have not incorporated a DAC in my designs, I prefer to have each separate device being as good as I can get it. I used to do a preamp out but it could never produce the sound of a quality external preamp. I may just work on one of those if time ever allows.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 1, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I am so curious what this custom amp is now...


I can pm you the details later on, it's an excellent amp and I really enjoy it when I use it,  Don't want to elaborate on it here anymore.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> That is an Incubus I built for a friend, it shows the left and right volume pots. I use dual pots for a few reasons. All my amps are one of a kind and I do not plan to do brushed copper ever again lol. Either my next Incubus or the DV mod will have a spalted maple cabinet with purpleheart splines.
> 
> I like to be able to adjust each channel so I can emphasize an artist or musical instruments. In the event dual triode tubes do not age the same on each triode, I can adjust. My hearing is not as good in my right ear most likely because of use of guns when I was younger.  I have not decided on VU meters but I may add those whenever I do get around to the DV mod. With dual pots they help but stepped pots can be a good indicator as well.
> 
> ...


do you mean remove the transformer and run it directly on 110v?


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> That is an Incubus I built for a friend, it shows the left and right volume pots. I use dual pots for a few reasons. All my amps are one of a kind and I do not plan to do brushed copper ever again lol. Either my next Incubus or the DV mod will have a spalted maple cabinet with purpleheart splines.
> 
> I like to be able to adjust each channel so I can emphasize an artist or musical instruments. In the event dual triode tubes do not age the same on each triode, I can adjust. My hearing is not as good in my right ear most likely because of use of guns when I was younger.  I have not decided on VU meters but I may add those whenever I do get around to the DV mod. With dual pots they help but stepped pots can be a good indicator as well.
> 
> ...


As always I appreciate the detailed answer, thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> do you mean remove the transformer and run it directly on 110v?


No, I have transformers I like to use but most likely I will keep the original and the transformer cover. I build my own OTL amps and I like a specific type of sound so I will work towards that.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> As always I appreciate the detailed answer, thanks!


Np I run a corporation but sometimes I get some freedom to think about hobbies.😺 I only had X number of hours last weekend to do the woodworking for Mr. Cowen so I tried to tune out other things unless I was waiting for glue to set.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Np I run a corporation but sometimes I get some freedom to think about hobbies.😺 I only had X number of hours last weekend to do the woodworking for Mr. Cowen so I tried to tune out other things unless I was waiting for glue to set.


I did my first "woodworking" (read: gluing and staining my Crack base) this weekend. Somehow I think I'm better at soldering but it's looking solid so far.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I did my first "woodworking" (read: gluing and staining my Crack base) this weekend. Somehow I think I'm better at soldering but it's looking solid so far.


If you leave the top plate stock, I can make you a better base one day. Something like lacewood.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> If you leave the top plate stock, I can make you a better base one day. Something like lacewood.


I'll take you up on that, thanks! Only thing I'm doing to the top plate is painting it (and the transformer bell). That looks sickening.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I'll take you up on that, thanks! Only thing I'm doing to the top plate is painting it (and the transformer bell). That looks sickening.


 

I also have lots of rainbow poplar.


----------



## DeweyCH

This is currently happening and I love it:


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> This is currently happening and I love it:


Oh yeah I could use purple heart and maybe another wood. Tiger maple or such.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah I could use purple heart and maybe another wood. Tiger maple or such.


Oh that's a magnificent idea.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Somehow I think I'm better at soldering....



This is _not_ confidence inspiring.  ROFL!!!!


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> RCA 6J5 tin cans are special. try to find a pair of SuperSilvertone 6L5.


FYI, a pair of those 6L5s popped up on eBay yesterday and will be in my amp later this week.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Np I run a corporation but sometimes I get some freedom to think about hobbies.😺 I only had X number of hours last weekend to do the woodworking for Mr. Cowen so I tried to tune out other things unless I was waiting for glue to set.


I, for one, am pleased that you have your priorities in the right order.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> This is _not_ confidence inspiring.  ROFL!!!!


Wait... so you _don't_ want me to take over for @Paladin79 in building your case extension?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I, for one, am pleased that you have your priorities in the right order.


And this is a freebee and I could not even drink beer part of the time when I was operating power tools. Of course it did not look as pretty Sunday morn so I had to redo things. Oh and I got my Freya + back today after the second trip back to Schiit so two sets of your tubes are in it now. I owed you so now we should be somewhat even.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Wait... so you _don't_ want me to take over for @Paladin79 in building your case extension?


LOL, I could send Bill's to you Dewey and you could make Bill a reasonable facsimile. He really likes cardboard ya know.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Wait... so you _don't_ want me to take over for @Paladin79 in building your case extension?


Um, well, um, you know, no offense or anything and don't tale this the wrong way and all, but....NO.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Um, well, um, you know, no offense or anything and don't tale this the wrong way and all, but....NO.


I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here. So you're saying you want me to get your DV and rebuild the whole thing from scratch based off pictures I've seen on the Internet? I mean, sure, I'll do it, but it'll cost you.

How do you feel about stucco top plates and "ironic" bumper stickers?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> How do you feel about stucco top plates and "ironic" bumper stickers?



Are you related to @Paladin79 ???


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, I could send Bill's to you Dewey and you could make Bill a reasonable facsimile. He really likes cardboard ya know.


Jerk.  You _always_ "forget" to mention *double-wall *cardboard.  I *do* have standards.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Jerk.  You _always_ "forget" to mention *double-wall *cardboard.  I *do* have standards.


...”double” standards?

I’ll see myself out.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> No, I have transformers I like to use but most likely I will keep the original and the transformer cover. I build my own OTL amps and I like a specific type of sound so I will work towards that.


so if it's possible to bypass the transformer , and connect ac directly to rectifier, then will get a 168v DC, it's very close the voltage at the point after first 100ohm resistor.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> so if it's possible to bypass the transformer , and connect ac directly to rectifier, then will get a 168v DC, it's very close the voltage at the point after first 100ohm resistor.



Then you will be without the 6.3VAC for your heaters.  The transformer has two secondary windings to provide the B+ and the heater AC.  Also keep in min that 168VDC will need to be filtered.  In the stock circuit, that means a series of RC filters, which will cause a loss of voltage, there won't be much left for the tubes!


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> Then you will be without the 6.3VAC for your heaters.  The transformer has two secondary windings to provide the B+ and the heater AC.  Also keep in min that 168VDC will need to be filtered.  In the stock circuit, that means a series of RC filters, which will cause a loss of voltage, there won't be much left for the tubes!


I totally agree. That made as much sense as cutting a square hole in a table.  Some things can get lost in translation but the direct AC baffles me lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I totally agree. That made as much sense as cutting a square hole in a table.  Some things can get lost in translation but the direct AC baffles me lol.


Is it too late to make that extension 4" instead of 3"?  Seems I have a big pile of stuff to put in there.   

Seriously, the only thing that should hang below the plane of the chassis are two of the big Mundorfs...but hang they will.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Is it too late to make that extension 4" instead of 3"?  Seems I have a big pile of stuff to put in there.
> 
> Seriously, the only thing that should hang below the plane of the chassis are two of the big Mundorfs...but hang they will.


🕳 E. 💩...😱


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Is it too late to make that extension 4" instead of 3"?  Seems I have a big pile of stuff to put in there.
> 
> Seriously, the only thing that should hang below the plane of the chassis are two of the big Mundorfs...but hang they will.


I did give you an extra quarter inch, make do!!!  You can leave the bottom off, put some of your pointy things under it and voila. Bob’s your uncle. 😺


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Is it too late to make that extension 4" instead of 3"?  Seems I have a big pile of stuff to put in there.
> 
> Seriously, the only thing that should hang below the plane of the chassis are two of the big Mundorfs...but hang they will.


Holy upgrades!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Holy upgrades!


Just too hard to resist(or).  But I should probably put a cap on it at some point.

Ugh....


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> Then you will be without the 6.3VAC for your heaters.  The transformer has two secondary windings to provide the B+ and the heater AC.  Also keep in min that 168VDC will need to be filtered.  In the stock circuit, that means a series of RC filters, which will cause a loss of voltage, there won't be much left for the tubes!


for 6.3vac , a small transformer should be fine.  
original design is CRCRC, replace it with CRC might work. it still filter and lower the voltage.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> I totally agree. That made as much sense as cutting a square hole in a table.  Some things can get lost in translation but the direct AC baffles me lol.


I guess you dont know eletric.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Is it too late to make that extension 4" instead of 3"?  Seems I have a big pile of stuff to put in there.
> 
> Seriously, the only thing that should hang below the plane of the chassis are two of the big Mundorfs...but hang they will.


Hmmm, seems like a codpiece is in order…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmmm, seems like a codpiece is in order…


LOL!  Perhaps a long resistor placed between the two caps would complete the look.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 1, 2021)

qingcai said:


> for 6.3vac , a small transformer should be fine.
> original design is CRCRC, replace it with CRC might work. it still filter and lower the voltage.



Original design is CRCRC-CRC.  Just a CRC will not be enough of a filter, there would be loud 120Hz buzzing on the output, need more than that, especially for a headphone amp.  Often times when designing an amplifier fixing one problem leads to another, there are always compromises.


----------



## qingcai

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Perhaps a long resistor placed between the two caps would complete the look.


the voltage is dropped to  168v , then one Resister with 200ohm should be similar B+


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> Original design is CRCRC-CRC.  Just a CRC will not be enough of a filter, there would be loud 120Hz buzzing on the output, need more than that, especially for a headphone amp.  Often times when designing an amplifier fixing one problem leads to another, there are always compromises.


that sounds like problem .


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 2, 2021)

qingcai said:


> I guess you dont know eletric.
> Ever wonder why people here are voiding the warranty to make the amp sound better???? Think man lmao!!!!!
> 
> Oh and I do not know eletric , it is not a word.🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀



I will also add that electronics has supported me quite well since college. It gave me a very comfortable living, put my kids through college and allowed me to buy them cars while they were in high school, and houses to inherit when my wife and I are gone. It is my profession, designing tube amps is a hobby as is woodworking. I have in excess of 40 years in electronics but now I enjoy woodworking more, and thus I would buy a DV to help a friend. There seems to be a translation problem since I mentioned possibly SWAPPING the power transformer, not doing away with it entirely.


----------



## qingcai

maybe I also need cut hole somewhere. these capacitors I got are oversized


----------



## L0rdGwyn

From my search, the TKD caps I used are the most capacitance I could find to fit inside the stock chassis in a polypropylene film cap, 33uF a pop, two per channel, and they just barely fit.


----------



## therremans (Mar 2, 2021)

I think someone posted a video about it here but it was showing a visual way to discharge caps with a kind of resistor bleeder shunt.




You’ll need a dual banana plug adapter that will fit into your DMM terminals - Amazon Link
I also did not own clip leads, so I bought these - Amazon Link

Bridge a 22k ohm 2W resistor across the wire terminals. I didn’t have this resistance or wattage so I used four .5Ws @ 220k, 100k, 100k and 47k (~21.8k paralleled, I actually ended up with 21.4k). These values can probably vary but it’s beyond my understanding. I’ve read people using 5W. I assume the resistance will be related to the power drain rate.







Please ignore the long leads, it's intentional since they will be unsoldered soon. (Video playback speed is 10x)


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> From my search, the TKD caps I used are the most capacitance I could find to fit inside the stock chassis in a polypropylene film cap, 33uF a pop, two per channel, and they just barely fit.





L0rdGwyn said:


> Original design is CRCRC-CRC.  Just a CRC will not be enough of a filter, there would be loud 120Hz buzzing on the output, need more than that, especially for a headphone amp.  Often times when designing an amplifier fixing one problem leads to another, there are always compromises.


found an article, there is a old design with direct AC. and there is a fix discuss in the article.

https://www.instructables.com/Isolation-transformer-upgrade-for-old-guitar-amps/


----------



## qingcai

another article about "Widowmakers"

https://robrobinette.com/Widowmakers.htm


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I think someone posted a video about it here but it was showing a visual way to discharge caps with a kind of resistor bleeder shunt.
> 
> 
> You’ll need a dual banana plug adapter that will fit into your DMM terminals - Amazon Link
> ...



It appears most modern digital meters accept the dual banana plugs with that spacing, for the longest time Simpson used male plugs on the inside of the meter so the test leads had to be females. They may have changed that by now. I have 10kv shunts and high voltage probes so I have never had to build anything but that is a great solution

Here is something I noticed @L0rdGwyn using as best I recall and I see one in your photo, the silicone pad.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-P...rand=Unbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219

They come in various sizes and many have magnets built in for holding screws.  I have such plain pads I use for woodworking, glue peals off easily and they roll up when not in use.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It appears most modern digital meters accept the dual banana plugs with that spacing, for the longest time Simpson used male plugs on the inside of the meter so the test leads had to be females. They may have changed that by now. I have 10kv shunts and high voltage probes so I have never had to build anything but that is a great solution
> 
> Here is something I noticed @L0rdGwyn using as best I recall and I see one in your photo, the silicone pad.
> 
> ...


I have one of those, it's super useful. Especially for keeping sets of screws together.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I have one of those, it's super useful. Especially for keeping sets of screws together.


It is a little small for some of my undertakings but works for some projects. To protect larger pieces I use bigger silicone pads or carpet samples that most carpet stores will give you, or charge a small amount for.

A silicone pad was under this build at all times and it gives me a clean work surface since I was doing a lot of woodwork before final assembly. 

.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little small for some of my undertakings but works for some projects. To protect larger pieces I use bigger silicone pads or carpet samples that most carpet stores will give you, or charge a small amount for.
> 
> A silicone pad was under this build at all times and it gives me a clean work surface since I was doing a lot of woodwork before final assembly.
> 
> .


Good lord man, is that a dual-monoblock custom tube amp you built? I would like to see more pictures...


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 2, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Good lord man, is that a dual-monoblock custom tube amp you built? I would like to see more pictures...


It is a 15 watt class A SET, I was given a bucket of parts by local engineers and I had to build the amp using all their parts in order to win a bet. Oh and it had to sound great lol. I won the bet then replaced a lot of parts. The power tubes are Russian but I soon adapted it to take German WW2 vintage tubes as well. They were used in transmitters on U boats. The GU-50 and LS 50 are pentodes I used as triodes. It is at the bottom of my main audio rack now and I use it with a Gungnir and Freya +. Even on it, I like to use dual pots  . Oh and originally I called it the Cowen but after I owned it, and made improvements, it is the Gemini Regna. It will be one of a kind because of parts cost and labor involved. I used tiger maple and white walnut (butternut) for the cabinet.


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone have a suggestion for getting buzz out of a GEC A2293? My adapter from @Deyan arrived, but there's definitely a buzz in one of the tubes (it's absolutely not the adapter). With a 9-pin, is it reasonably straightforward to try and reflow solder in the pins like on an octal?


----------



## DeweyCH

5998 + 5692 + VC = joy

"That's no moon, it's a space station. I mean headphone cup."


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have a suggestion for getting buzz out of a GEC A2293? My adapter from @Deyan arrived, but there's definitely a buzz in one of the tubes (it's absolutely not the adapter). With a 9-pin, is it reasonably straightforward to try and reflow solder in the pins like on an octal?


All you can do is clean the pins thoroughly, there is no re-soldering that you can do on those IMHO.


----------



## therremans (Mar 2, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have a suggestion for getting buzz out of a GEC A2293? My adapter from @Deyan arrived, but there's definitely a buzz in one of the tubes (it's absolutely not the adapter). With a 9-pin, is it reasonably straightforward to try and reflow solder in the pins like on an octal?


No, there’s actually no solder. You confirmed it’s one of the tubes? If not, the wires in the adapter could be inspected. Make twisted pairs for the heaters, 7 and 8 of the octal.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> No, there’s actually no solder. You confirmed it’s one of the tubes? If not, the wires in the adapter could be inspected. Make twisted pairs for the heaters, 7 and 8 of the octal.


Yeah, I switched the tubes and the buzz followed one of them.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I switched the tubes and the buzz followed one of them.


If by chance you bought those from Langrex, let him know and that you've verified the problem is definitely the tube (as you've done by swapping them). He might just send you another one at no charge.


----------



## Galapac

I have his CV4079s, not sure if he is carrying the A2293s. His stuff is usually brand NOS so id be surprised but he would take it back. Like others said, try Deoxit on the pins as I have the A2293s and they were pretty oxidized when I got them from a pull.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> If by chance you bought those from Langrex, let him know and that you've verified the problem is definitely the tube (as you've done by swapping them). He might just send you another one at no charge.


Yes, good point. He sent me a replacement GEC 6J5GT because one of mine had an audible hum that wouldn’t go away. It did get quiet after I replaced the low grade wire in my adapter, but was still there.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah, I switched the tubes and the buzz followed one of them.


Also diagnose these tubes with a 6SN7 to remove any added complications from an adapter up in the driver side.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 2, 2021)

@bcowen's extension is on the way to him. I need to get busy building Incubus amps in birdseye or tiger maple, and one in spalted maple and then I will get back to the DV. I am considering solid cherry if I gift the DV to my son. As some of you are finding out, unless you shopped carefully for the parts, having more room is a nice thing lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen's extension is on the way to him. I need to get busy building Incubus amps in birdseye or tiger maple, and one in spalted maple and then I will get back to the DV. I am considering solid cherry if I gift the DV to my son. As some of you are finding out, unless you shopped carefully for the parts, having more room is a nice thing lol.


Geeeeez, how may times do I have to remind you that maple sounds better?  Cherry sounds kind of like cardboard.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Geeeeez, how may times do I have to remind you that maple sounds better?  Cherry sounds kind of like cardboard.


I need to build two clubs, one out of cherry, one out of maple and mail them to your wife. When you are least expecting it she will smack you in the left ear with the maple, then the right ear with the cherry. This way you can be up close and personal with the wood and really hear the difference.    With the cardboard you may only get a paper cut so that is hardly worth my time and effort.

My theory on wood sound is, maple butcher blocks were plentiful and early audiophiles bought them to set their turn tables on etc. Sometimes said tables are made of cherry as well. Maple is higher on the Janka scale than Cherry but things like purple heart are a lot higher but it is more expensive and hard to find in such butcher blocks. Now if you wanted just one large shelf, I might go with Brazilian walnut or Brazilian teak.


----------



## Galapac

cherry or maple? Too freakin funny. That one had me laughing out loud. I could picture my wife wanting a pair...I prefer cherry for smoking meats and maple for syrup.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I need to build two clubs, one out of cherry, one out of maple and mail them to your wife. When you are least expecting it she will smack you in the left ear with the maple, then the right ear with the cherry. This way you can be up close and personal with the wood and really hear the difference.    With the cardboard you may only get a paper cut so that is hardly worth my time and effort.



What about sending an old-fashioned hickory switch?...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to build two clubs, one out of cherry, one out of maple and mail them to your wife. When you are least expecting it she will smack you in the left ear with the maple, then the right ear with the cherry. This way you can be up close and personal with the wood and really hear the difference.    With the cardboard you may only get a paper cut so that is hardly worth my time and effort.


Whew.  _That_ I can deal with, and no doubt my wife would be happy to participate.   I thought you were going to make two Incubus amps, one out of cherry and one out of maple, and then make me pick which was which....blind.



Paladin79 said:


> My theory on wood sound is, maple butcher blocks were plentiful and early audiophiles bought them to set their turn tables on etc. Sometimes said tables are made of cherry as well. Maple is higher on the Janka scale than Cherry but things like purple heart are a lot higher but it is more expensive and hard to find in such butcher blocks. Now if you wanted just one large shelf, I might go with Brazilian walnut or Brazilian teak.



Not that I have an opinion or anything  but maple is definitely the best for shelves other than Neuance's, which are unfortunately no longer made. Very light (the ones below weigh about a pound each) and _very_ rigid. 




 





And finally (just for you) a Neuance sandwiched between pointy things.


----------



## Galapac

That's some real nice audio equipment Bill, they way they talk about you livin' in a cardboard box an all...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Whew.  _That_ I can deal with, and no doubt my wife would be happy to participate.   I thought you were going to make two Incubus amps, one out of cherry and one out of maple, and then make me pick which was which....blind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went with solid cherry shelves just to annoy you.    If you heard my latest version of the Incubus you would be wanting to trade in your cardboard version and no one wants a sideways amp, except you lol.

You do like your pointy things. A very pretty setup I must say but at that angle I cannot see the built in record changer. Maybe another time.

I may go with this for my son, no double walled cardboard for him.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAPELE-POM...743458?hash=item422a5f80a2:g:4-4AAOSw0HJgIuHS


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> That's some real nice audio equipment Bill, they way they talk about you livin' in a cardboard box an all...


Thanks!  This is all housed in my dedicated listening box.  It's triple-wall.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  This is all housed in my dedicated listening box.  It's triple-wall.




This is Bill's sideways amp in tulip poplar I gifted him and it is before he started adding his own touches. Those are cherry shelves whose idea he borrowed from me to make his tiger maple shelf for medium sized Schiit products.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Just pulled the trigger on the DV 336SE and already checking on tube rolling as I heard that the stock ones are crap. was thinking about the Sovtek 6AS7 for Power and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for Pre-amp but am definitely open to suggestions though nothing way too expensive.
Thanks
​


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Just pulled the trigger on the DV 336SE and already checking on tube rolling as I heard that the stock ones are crap. was thinking about the Sovtek 6AS7 for Power and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for Pre-amp but am definitely open to suggestions though nothing way too expensive.
> Thanks
> ​


I would go with the Svetlana winged C over the Sovtek's myself. They are not expensive and plenty of them are still around.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I would go with the Svetlana winged C over the Sovtek's myself. They are not expensive and plenty of them are still around.


Thanks for the recommendation but my tube source is either tube depot or Amazon as i have credit in both


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I would go with the Svetlana winged C over the Sovtek's myself. They are not expensive and plenty of them are still around.


I agree, a Sovtek is an overpriced Svetlana, just rebranded. I learnt that on here...😉
I also have both, go with the Svetlana, you can’t go wrong and cheapest tube out there for decent sound.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I agree, a Sovtek is an overpriced Svetlana, just rebranded. I learnt that on here...😉
> I also have both, go with the Svetlana, you can’t go wrong and cheapest tube out there for decent sound.


sadly tube depot does not carry it nor amazon


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 2, 2021)

BTW what's the model number of the Svetlana ? 6H13C  ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> sadly tube depot does not carry it nor amazon


https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Svet...093672&hash=item1a40b928f8:g:BvEAAOSwpO9c6TSk


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Svet...093672&hash=item1a40b928f8:g:BvEAAOSwpO9c6TSk


is this equivalent too :
https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW what's the model number of the Svetlana ? 6H13C  ?


6h13c or 6H5c.
By the way, nice to see someone on here from Lebanon, my daughter in law is from there, came here to get her phd.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> 6h13c or 6H5c.
> By the way, nice to see someone on here from Lebanon, my daughter in law is from there, came here to get her phd.


Good to hear, my daughter also planning to get her PhD from the US 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

BTW Was ordering the DV from Amazon when i discovered that i can order directly from china with free international shipping


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> is this equivalent too :
> https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520


I believe RCA helped Russia set up and build the winged C based on their design, others here will know the details better than me. RCA went to a top getter where the Russians kept the bottom getter. I have some older RCA's and they are very good tubes, comparable to Svetlana.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW Was ordering the DV from Amazon when i discovered that i can order directly from china with free international shipping


You can buy them on Drop for $200 so I hope you did as well as that. Do you own other headphone amps or is this your first?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I believe RCA helped Russia set up and build the winged C based on their design, others here will know the details better than me. RCA went to a top getter where the Russians kept the bottom getter. I have some older RCA's and they are very good tubes, comparable to Svetlana.


you think it's a better choice over the Sovtek ? it's only around $10 difference


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 2, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You can buy them on Drop for $200 so I hope you did as well as that. Do you own other headphone amps or is this your first?


Too late for Drop now (sold Through - Zero stock), order placed and should ship with DHL shortly. I have both the Violectric V90 SS amp as well as the Cavalli CTH and Focal Elear as well as Ananda.
the CTH got me hooked with the tube vibe. Am sure only my Focal would work with the DV having 80 Ohms while I will use the Ananda wit the CTH and Violectric or maybe try the DV as a Pre-amp prior to the V90.
I normally prefer floor speakers which i carry the Golden Ears Triton and a Mcintosch MA5200 amp with a Cambridge CXN but the online classes due to the COVID made me go for cans for the moment 😥😥


----------



## Paladin79

Others may be answer better on their likes and dislikes between the RCA, Svetlana and Sovtek, they are very similar tubes but price wise I get the best deals on Svetlana and I own them back to 1955 or so. 

You do have some decent equipment, I have Focal Utopias but I only use them on my own amps,.  The DV has a good price but if you are able to solder, it can sound a lot better.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Others may be answer better on their likes and dislikes between the RCA, Svetlana and Sovtek, they are very similar tubes but price wise I get the best deals on Svetlana and I own them back to 1955 or so.
> 
> You do have some decent equipment, I have Focal Utopias but I only use them on my own amps,.  The DV has a good price but if you are able to solder, it can sound a lot better.


 "if you are able to solder" Not going this path for now 🤣🤣but really don't mind paying the extra $10 for the Sovtek if they do a decent job ?
how about the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB ? do they get your blessing ? 🙂 or maybe this : https://tubedepot.com/products/6sn7gta-6sn7gtb-full-base
​


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> "if you are able to solder" Not going this path for now 🤣🤣but really don't mind paying the extra $10 for the Sovtek if they do a decent job ?
> how about the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB ? do they get your blessing ? 🙂 or maybe this : https://tubedepot.com/products/6sn7gta-6sn7gtb-full-base
> ​


I have a friend returning tubes soon, so I need to go but others may help.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> "if you are able to solder" Not going this path for now 🤣🤣but really don't mind paying the extra $10 for the Sovtek if they do a decent job ?
> how about the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB ? do they get your blessing ? 🙂 or maybe this : https://tubedepot.com/products/6sn7gta-6sn7gtb-full-base
> ​


The new production Tung-Sol 6SN7s are ok. Not great, but a decent upgrade from the awful stock tubes. The one you linked is interesting... there’s no brand specifically. If you go for that one, ask for a list of brand options and try to get a Sylvania or RCA. Not GE.

Power tube wise I’d probably recommend the RCA 6AS7 if you’re only considering Tube Depot stuff. That was my first power tube upgrade and it’s a nice bang for the buck.

Another good pre option that Amazon carries is the Shuguang CV-181z. I have one and like it quite a bit.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Whew.  _That_ I can deal with, and no doubt my wife would be happy to participate.   I thought you were going to make two Incubus amps, one out of cherry and one out of maple, and then make me pick which was which....blind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jota is always such eye-catching.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> The new production Tung-Sol 6SN7s are ok. Not great, but a decent upgrade from the awful stock tubes. The one you linked is interesting... there’s no brand specifically. If you go for that one, ask for a list of brand options and try to get a Sylvania or RCA. Not GE.
> 
> Power tube wise I’d probably recommend the RCA 6AS7 if you’re only considering Tube Depot stuff. That was my first power tube upgrade and it’s a nice bang for the buck.
> 
> Another good pre option that Amazon carries is the Shuguang CV-181z. I have one and like it quite a bit.


Having tried both RCA and Shuguang as a power tubes, do you recommend the Shuguang noting it's slightly more expensive ?
as for the amp section I would go for the Sylvania or RCA as per your recommendation.
Thanks


----------



## Brubacca

Does the Shuguang CV-181z hum?  

My Tung Sol 6SN7 hum will not go away.


----------



## Galapac

Brubacca said:


> Does the Shuguang CV-181z hum?
> 
> My Tung Sol 6SN7 hum will not go away.


9 times out of 10 it’s your DV and not the tube. Look back in this thread by searching above. Some tubes will do it more than others but the DV is the main cause most times of the hum.


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, going to try to explain how you go about center-tapping and elevating the heaters of the stock DarkVoice.
> 
> *Please read in full before making any changes, be sure to understand what you are doing before you do it.  If you are unsure if what you have done is correct, take a photo and PM me or post in the thread and tag me.  Carry out these modifications at your own risk, there is ~200VDC inside the amplifier, working with high voltages carries a shock and safety hazard.
> 
> ...


Tonight I successfully elevated the heaters. Thanks again for the details!


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Having tried both RCA and Shuguang as a power tubes, do you recommend the Shuguang noting it's slightly more expensive ?
> as for the amp section I would go for the Sylvania or RCA as per your recommendation.
> Thanks


The Shuguang is an amp tube, not a power tube. Doubling up on RCAs is never a bad thing, or an RCA 6AS7 in the power socket + Shuguang CV-181z in the amp socket. Shuguang is better sounding than a NOS RCA 6SN7, but both sound good.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> Tonight I successfully elevated the heaters. Thanks again for the details!



Great, any improvement as far as hum / noise goes?


----------



## DeweyCH

Brubacca said:


> Does the Shuguang CV-181z hum?
> 
> My Tung Sol 6SN7 hum will not go away.


What @Galapac said, have you tried removing the power tube (WHILE THE DV IS OFF) then turning on the amp overnight to burn in the Tung-Sol?


----------



## DeweyCH (Mar 2, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Great, any improvement as far as hum / noise goes?


Haven't tried a noisy tube yet, will in a few minutes, just wanted to test and make sure everything worked on my craptacular stock tubes. Gonna test on my metal base Sylvania that typically has a mild to moderate hum.

EDIT: Still a touch of hum in the left channel with the Sylvania. Probably the tube, there's much less hum than before.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> The Shuguang is an amp tube, not a power tube. Doubling up on RCAs is never a bad thing, or an RCA 6AS7 in the power socket + Shuguang CV-181z in the amp socket. Shuguang is better sounding than a NOS RCA 6SN7, but both sound good.


Is the Shuguang twice as better sounding than the RCA given the price difference of $86 to $40 ? knowing that I would even happily pay the difference for a 10% better sounding margin 😁😁😁


----------



## therremans (Mar 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the Shuguang twice as better sounding than the RCA given the price difference of $86 to $40 ? knowing that I would even happily pay the difference for a 10% better sounding margin 😁😁😁


I would probably save the cash and shop on eBay as amazon won't offer many choices and TubeDepot is overpriced with no selection. They also sell other items besides tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I would probably save the cash and shop on eBay as amazon won't offer many choices and TubeDepot is overpriced with no selection. They also sell other items besides tubes.


Any better recommendation in this case ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> The Shuguang is an amp tube, not a power tube. Doubling up on RCAs is never a bad thing, or an RCA 6AS7 in the power socket + Shuguang CV-181z in the amp socket. Shuguang is better sounding than a NOS RCA 6SN7, but both sound good.


Just read on a forum that the Shuguang makes the DV sounds like an SS ? any truth to this ?


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Just read on a forum that the Shuguang makes the DV sounds like an SS ? any truth to this ?


Just pitching in my thoughts.

As far as power tubes go the most bang for the buck is definitely the Svetlana 6AS7G as it's cheap and gets the job done 2 times better than the stock DV tube.
A side step would be the RCA I guess. 50$ for a RCA from tubedepot seems a bit overpriced. Not worth more than 30$. But any of these will get you going for now.

As far as 6SN7 tubes go, the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB is quite decent. Well rounded tube with a bit of warmth in the lower mid range and upper bass frequencies. 
My first tubes after replacing the stock ones were the Svetlana & the Tung Sol. I still go back from time to time to that config.

The Shuguang on the other hand is more or less the same as the Psvane CV-181-T-MK2. Too expensive imo as it's not anything special. Just a pretty sharp tube, great detail but a bit too neutral and fast sounding. Can be paired with a warmer power tube to balance things out.

My fav combo with the Svetlana is still the short bottle Sylvania 6SN7WGTA. Gets the feet tapping


----------



## therremans (Mar 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Any better recommendation in this case ?


RCA 6SN7GTB - link, offer around $10.
Thomson 6080WA - link, you’ll have a spare. This is overpaying for these though.
TS 5998 - link

I am not seeing many great BIN auctions, Russian 6as7g is probably your cheapest option. I hear the 50s are where it's at but mine from 1986 sounds nice. It has a strong bass presence and grainy high end, but worth the $20.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Just pitching in my thoughts.
> 
> As far as power tubes go the most bang for the buck is definitely the Svetlana 6AS7G as it's cheap and gets the job done 2 times better than the stock DV tube.
> A side step would be the RCA I guess. 50$ for a RCA from tubedepot seems a bit overpriced. Not worth more than 30$. But any of these will get you going for now.
> ...


So an RCA for power and a Slyvania 6SN7WGTA ??


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> So an RCA for power and a Slyvania 6SN7WGTA ??


I would grab that pair of Thomsons linked by @therremans instead of just one RCA. 
WGTA here


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I would grab that pair of Thomsons linked by @therremans instead of just one RCA.
> WGTA here


am bound sadly to either TubeDepot or Amazon as I have unused credit with them 😥


----------



## HTSkywalker

just a clumsy question 😭, what is a full base tube and does it fit in the DV ?


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> am bound sadly to either TubeDepot or Amazon as I have unused credit with them 😥


You may be better off using the stock tubes then and buy from eBay or elsewhere at a later date.


----------



## Brubacca

Galapac said:


> 9 times out of 10 it’s your DV and not the tube. Look back in this thread by searching above. Some tubes will do it more than others but the DV is the main cause most times of the hum.



I thought that SN7 were more prone to hum than others?  My stock tube is silent. Tung-Sol has a slight hum after burn in. 

It's actually tough to come into this giant thread and find much. 

I guess there is a capacitor mod, I'd rather just change a tube.


----------



## Brubacca

DeweyCH said:


> What @Galapac said, have you tried removing the power tube (WHILE THE DV IS OFF) then turning on the amp overnight to burn in the Tung-Sol?


But it doesn't sound very good without the power tube...  Sorry couldn't resist. 

I did this every night for at least a week when I got the DV. It may have been two weeks. Went from a very loud unlistenable hum to a quieter its still there hum. 

Haven't soldered anything in closer to 30 years so I'm a bit worried to research and execute the shunt capacitor mod. 

Is there a list of quiet preamp tube?


----------



## Deceneu808

Brubacca said:


> But it doesn't sound very good without the power tube...  Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> I did this every night for at least a week when I got the DV. It may have been two weeks. Went from a very loud unlistenable hum to a quieter its still there hum.
> 
> ...


I leave all the tubes I buy at least 3 days straight in DV for a little burn in. Some don't even hum after the first few hours and you may think hmm nice but the hum comes back again tomorrow. Some tubes require up to 300 hours of burn in to lose all the hum. At least this is what I have found in my DV.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> RCA 6SN7GTB - link, offer around $10.
> Thomson 6080WA - link, you’ll have a spare. This is overpaying for these though.
> TS 5998 - link
> 
> I am not seeing many great BIN auctions, Russian 6as7g is probably your cheapest option. I hear the 50s are where it's at but mine from 1986 sounds nice. It has a strong bass presence and grainy high end, but worth the $20.


I have some of those 6as7g's from the 50's and tend to hang onto them. A tube on ebay a lot is the Russian Melz 1578 (6sn7 equivalent) but you need to be able to re-solder the pins, the same with the Fotons from the early fifties, great tubes for the price but once again re-soldering is required. The holy grail of the Melz is this one, solid shiny black plates but all the characteristics of the perforated plate Melz. These are very rare, and I search for them constantly.




I let a few folks on here listen to one but I digress.

I will look for some links for HTskywalker when time allows.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Just read on a forum that the Shuguang makes the DV sounds like an SS ? any truth to this ?


Nah. It’s a more linear and clear tube but it doesn’t sound fully solid state. Also the power tube you pair it with will influence the sound.


----------



## DeweyCH

Brubacca said:


> But it doesn't sound very good without the power tube...  Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> I did this every night for at least a week when I got the DV. It may have been two weeks. Went from a very loud unlistenable hum to a quieter its still there hum.
> 
> ...


Not that I know. I modded the hell out of mine because the hum is endemic to the amp. In my experience it’s hit or miss if a tube will hum and if a humming tube will burn in. Sorry.


----------



## Brubacca

Deceneu808 said:


> I leave all the tubes I buy at least 3 days straight in DV for a little burn in. Some don't even hum after the first few hours and you may think hmm nice but the hum comes back again tomorrow. Some tubes require up to 300 hours of burn in to lose all the hum. At least this is what I have found in my DV.


I'll let the tube run in some more over the next couple days, but its been a couple months.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> Nah. It’s a more linear and clear tube but it doesn’t sound fully solid state. Also the power tube you pair it with will influence the sound.


In that case I probably best stay clear from it as my main intention is to have a full warm tube sound. My Violectric is doing a great job as a SS amp. Maybe the RCA or Sylvania 6SN7GT would be a better fit, even maybe the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.
As for the power tube, probably am going with the RCA 6AS7G   or the Sovtek.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> In that case I probably best stay clear from it as my main intention is to have a full warm tube sound. My Violectric is doing a great job as a SS amp. Maybe the RCA or Sylvania 6SN7GT would be a better fit, even maybe the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.
> As for the power tube, probably am going with the RCA 6AS7G   or the Sovtek.


You could do a whoooooole lot worse than a double-RCA setup. In the future maybe look out for a Foton 6H8C - really warm, super rock-and-roll tube. The polar opposite of a "polite," SS-like tube (with the tradeoff being clarity).


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> In that case I probably best stay clear from it as my main intention is to have a full warm tube sound. My Violectric is doing a great job as a SS amp. Maybe the RCA or Sylvania 6SN7GT would be a better fit, even maybe the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.
> As for the power tube, probably am going with the RCA 6AS7G   or the Sovtek.


I agree with @DeweyCH. An RCA pairing of 6AS7G and 6SN7 (or even 5692!) is a “sweet spot” of sorts: the sound is full, rich, and does not lack air or detail. To improve on either or both RCAs will really up the $$$, £££, €€€, ¥¥¥ or whatever.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ugh. I was really looking forward to listening to these... today arrived these two Super Silvertone 6L5Gs:






Visually they seem brand-spanking-new. Popped them in:





Bad buzzing. Ugh. (It's not the adapter, I'm listening to my L63s right now via the same adapter)

Also this arrived:





6CG7 to 6SN7 converter so I could try out this Tung-Sol 6FQ7. And...





Even worse buzz. This I don't know if is the adapter as I don't have any other 6FQ7/6CG7 tubes.

I'll clean the pins later and see if I can get these playing nice. For now, at least I can listen on my L63/5998 combo and it sounds great.

Not on a great roll lately with new-to-me tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Incidentally, anyone have a recommendation for a good but not wicked expensive tube tester? I keep buying these "tests NOS" tubes and I'd kind of like to be able to verify myself once they get here. Or is there a good way to test tubes with a multimeter?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Any better recommendation in this case ?


Here are some 6sn7 equivalents I would personally own. If there are no bids and Make Offer is available, that is a great time to try to buy the tube at a better price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-RCA-JAN...228039?hash=item422bf3a007:g:FKAAAOSw9iZgPw7A

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-6SN7...547536?hash=item2f2b566e50:g:5vUAAOSwAFFb8gsM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-EA-RADIO...901626?hash=item2b0041bbba:g:0zIAAOSw309gO6zO

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-US...962207?hash=item5dc4473f9f:g:bSAAAOSw6tdfNHlM

6as7g types

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-5...457532?hash=item3b57ffe0fc:g:9kUAAOSw0R9gNu84
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-6N13...brand=Svetlana&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-C...759522?hash=item5dc425a362:g:BYsAAOSw7YRgPYXR


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I leave all the tubes I buy at least 3 days straight in DV for a little burn in. Some don't even hum after the first few hours and you may think hmm nice but the hum comes back again tomorrow. Some tubes require up to 300 hours of burn in to lose all the hum. At least this is what I have found in my DV.


I am curious which types of tubes require 300 hours burn in?  That used to be thought about Fotons till I conducted some tests and found it was the solder in the tube pins. I believe I even finally convinced @bcowen of this and he probably owns more Fotons than anyone I know lol. Running a tube that long would allow the rosin to reflow inside the pins is my impression but, take that same tube, put it in a box on a shelf for a few weeks and you are back where you started. Melz can be like that as well although their issues are more pronounced if there is bad solder in the pins.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious which types of tubes require 300 hours burn in?  That used to be thought about Fotons till I conducted some tests and found it was the solder in the tube pins. I believe I even finally convinced @bcowen of this and he probably owns more Fotons than anyone I know lol. Running a tube that long would allow the rosin to reflow inside the pins is my impression but, take that same tube, put it in a box on a shelf for a few weeks and you are back where you started. Melz can be like that as well although their issues are more pronounced if there is bad solder in the pins.


Maybe I overdid it with the 300h mark but I've found the Psvane 6SN7-UK even after more than 120+ hours of burn in it still hums. After 30 hours it went away but it came back a few days later. Maybe new production tubes need a little more burn in


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Incidentally, anyone have a recommendation for a good but not wicked expensive tube tester? I keep buying these "tests NOS" tubes and I'd kind of like to be able to verify myself once they get here. Or is there a good way to test tubes with a multimeter?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/B-K-Dyna-J...645098?hash=item28a964c3ea:g:QT0AAOSwADVgLAel

Watch for one of these at a better price and a better description of its condition.  Easy to use, fairly reliable and parts are available. You should also know that someone on here occasionally sells tube testers and has a lot of experience with them.  As I recall he might follow some basketball team, Tarheels or Blue Devils, practically the same thing.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Maybe I overdid it with the 300h mark but I've found the Psvane 6SN7-UK even after more than 120+ hours of burn in it still hums. After 30 hours it went away but it came back a few days later. Maybe new production tubes need a little more burn in


Going away and coming back later makes me suspect something other than burn in. Maybe it was 100 hours on the Fotons but much longer than I wanted to wait lol.  I have not run many tests on those but I have owned some Psvane with no issues. I did learn that even in a tube box, when Finnegan (my cat) knocks one onto a tile floor from my audio rack, it still breaks.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Going away and coming back later makes me suspect something other than burn in. Maybe it was 100 hours on the Fotons but much longer than I wanted to wait lol.  I have not run many tests on those but I have owned some Psvane with no issues. I did learn that even in a tube box, when Finnegan (my cat) knocks one onto a tile floor from my audio rack, it still breaks.


In other good news I've got the other 5998 up and working. 4th pin reflow and it's running better than ever


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> In other good news I've got the other 5998 up and working. 4th pin reflow and it's running better than ever


Wonderful news. It never hurts to get more experience in tube pin re-soldering.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Going away and coming back later makes me suspect something other than burn in. Maybe it was 100 hours on the Fotons but much longer than I wanted to wait lol.  I have not run many tests on those but I have owned some Psvane with no issues. I did learn that even in a tube box, when Finnegan (my cat) knocks one onto a tile floor from my audio rack, it still breaks.


If tubes could have nine lives (as well as nine pins...eight pins...)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...Tarheels or Blue Devils, practically the same thing.



OK, now you've _totally_ crossed the line.  I'm unfriending you on Facebook.  

Wait....you already shipped my DV base extension, right?  If not, then nevermind.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, now you've _totally_ crossed the line.  I'm unfriending you on Facebook.
> 
> Wait....you already shipped my DV base extension, right?  If not, then nevermind.


That will be the last DV extension I ever make for you, ever!!!!  Provided this one even survives the trip. I pack things very well for paying customers, Finnegan packed this one.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh. I was really looking forward to listening to these... today arrived these two Super Silvertone 6L5Gs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are the Silvertones actually Sylvanias? They remind me of some I have.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Maybe I overdid it with the 300h mark but I've found the Psvane 6SN7-UK even after more than 120+ hours of burn in it still hums. After 30 hours it went away but it came back a few days later. Maybe new production tubes need a little more burn in


This is just a general statement and not directed at you @Deceneu808 , but the great majority of the hum issues reported with the Darkvoice are NOT due to the tubes.  They're due to the Darkvoice.  Some tubes hum worse than others, but the root cause is the amp, not the tubes.  Not slagging on the amp (I own one), but there are at least a couple design issues that are at the heart of this.  The easiest thing to do is the "Fitz Mod" which is adding a couple bypass capacitors on the 6SN7 cathodes.  That's a band-aid though and has some sonic liabilities that go along with it (less "tubey" sound).  But it works and will get rid of the great majority of hum issues.  The better way is to make the modifications that @L0rdGwyn has so nicely investigated and detailed in this thread by elevating the heater voltage and twisting the wiring going to the heater pins.  That's more involved obviously -- the Fitz Mod is quite simple for anyone with even basic soldering skills.  But without at least doing that, then finding tubes that *don't* hum in the Darkvoice will be a total crapshoot forever -- some will have very little hum, some will have a lot, and you'll never know which until you plug the specific tube into the amp and see what it does.  But if it hums like crazy, don't blame the tube...


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> This is just a general statement and not directed at you @Deceneu808 , but the great majority of the hum issues reported with the Darkvoice are NOT due to the tubes.  They're due to the Darkvoice.  Some tubes hum worse than others, but the root cause is the amp, not the tubes.  Not slagging on the amp (I own one), but there are at least a couple design issues that are at the heart of this.  The easiest thing to do is the "Fitz Mod" which is adding a couple bypass capacitors on the 6SN7 cathodes.  That's a band-aid though and has some sonic liabilities that go along with it (less "tubey" sound).  But it works and will get rid of the great majority of hum issues.  The better way is to make the modifications that @L0rdGwyn has so nicely investigated and detailed in this thread by elevating the heater voltage and twisting the wiring going to the heater pins.  That's more involved obviously -- the Fitz Mod is quite simple for anyone with even basic soldering skills.  But without at least doing that, then finding tubes that *don't* hum in the Darkvoice will be a total crapshoot forever -- some will have very little hum, some will have a lot, and you'll never know which until you plug the specific tube into the amp and see what it does.  But if it hums like crazy, don't blame the tube...


I'm ready for my first mod


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> In other good news I've got the other 5998 up and working. 4th pin reflow and it's running better than ever


Awesome!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That will be the last DV extension I ever make for you, ever!!!!  Provided this one even survives the trip. I pack things very well for paying customers, Finnegan packed this one.


LOL!  At least Finnegan did the quality inspection at each stage, so I have no doubt everything will be just perfect.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> This is just a general statement and not directed at you @Deceneu808 , but the great majority of the hum issues reported with the Darkvoice are NOT due to the tubes.  They're due to the Darkvoice.  Some tubes hum worse than others, but the root cause is the amp, not the tubes.  Not slagging on the amp (I own one), but there are at least a couple design issues that are at the heart of this.  The easiest thing to do is the "Fitz Mod" which is adding a couple bypass capacitors on the 6SN7 cathodes.  That's a band-aid though and has some sonic liabilities that go along with it (less "tubey" sound).  But it works and will get rid of the great majority of hum issues.  The better way is to make the modifications that @L0rdGwyn has so nicely investigated and detailed in this thread by elevating the heater voltage and twisting the wiring going to the heater pins.  That's more involved obviously -- the Fitz Mod is quite simple for anyone with even basic soldering skills.  But without at least doing that, then finding tubes that *don't* hum in the Darkvoice will be a total crapshoot forever -- some will have very little hum, some will have a lot, and you'll never know which until you plug the specific tube into the amp and see what it does.  But if it hums like crazy, don't blame the tube...


Bill I did that and ended up paying the price as I was banned from a seller on eBay as I returned a NOS Tung-Sol CTL 6SN7GT Round Plate Audio Tube from 1942 similar to this
that I got at a decent price. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-J...633752?hash=item4b89c061d8:g:bQsAAOSw0FRf6MyK
He swore up and down it wasn't the tube but that tube hummed and it hummed loudly. I now know it was the DV and I lost a good tube and source of tubes because of it. Lesson learned.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  At least Finnegan did the quality inspection at each stage, so I have no doubt everything will be just perfect.


He is in my shop right now helping me pick out some black walnut for a future build. This one goes to a gentleman who shipped me Satsuma mandarin oranges. I  have my priorities you know, this one gets actual wood from a tree!


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Bill I did that and ended up paying the price as I was banned from a seller on eBay as I returned a NOS Tung-Sol CTL 6SN7GT Round Plate Audio Tube from 1942 similar to this
> that I got at a decent price.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-J...633752?hash=item4b89c061d8:g:bQsAAOSw0FRf6MyK
> He swore up and down it wasn't the tube but that tube hummed and it hummed loudly. I now know it was the DV and I lost a good tube and source of tubes because of it. Lesson learned.


It is never a bad idea to have a couple 6sn7 amps laying around if you can afford it. I have several including a Lyr 3 with a multibit DAC card that I should sell one day soon just to make space.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is never a bad idea to have a couple 6sn7 amps laying around if you can afford it. I have several including a Lyr 3 with a multibit DAC card that I should sell one day soon just to make space.


Agree totally.  When I first got my Darkvoice, I tried a number of different 6SN7's, and a couple were pretty quiet and a couple had a very low level background hum, and low enough in level it didn't really bother me.  But then I stuck a well used Foton 6N8S in it and got a _horrible_ hum.  That tube had spent time in the Schiit Lyr 3 and Vali 2 as well as the Incubus with no hum issues whatsoever, so I knew it wasn't the tube.  However, if the DV was the only amp I had, I would have (naturally) blamed it on the tube.  One inexpensive route for a secondary amp is the Schiit Vali 2+ with a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter.  All-in for less than $200, and you have another nice sounding headphone amp to boot...


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 3, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh. I was really looking forward to listening to these... today arrived these two Super Silvertone 6L5Gs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







That's for the BDW/Colt45 ad. (sometimes I miss the '80s)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Agree totally.  When I first got my Darkvoice, I tried a number of different 6SN7's, and a couple were pretty quiet and a couple had a very low level background hum, and low enough in level it didn't really bother me.  But then I stuck a well used Foton 6N8S in it and got a _horrible_ hum.  That tube had spent time in the Schiit Lyr 3 and Vali 2 as well as the Incubus with no hum issues whatsoever, so I knew it wasn't the tube.  However, if the DV was the only amp I had, I would have (naturally) blamed it on the tube.  One inexpensive route for a secondary amp is the Schiit Vali 2+ with a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter.  All-in for less than $200, and you have another nice sounding headphone amp to boot...


I have a Vali 2 somewhere myself, and a highly modified Bottlehead Crack that will take a 6sn7 with adapter.  I plugged Utopias into a stock DV for maybe a minute but it was like putting a Rolls Royce grill on a Volkswagen. There should be no weak links in a musical chain, if there are, that is where you should concentrate your efforts.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I have a Vali 2 somewhere myself, and a highly modified Bottlehead Crack that will take a 6sn7 with adapter.  I plugged Utopias into a stock DV for maybe a minute but it was like putting a Rolls Royce grill on a Volkswagen. There should be no weak links in a musical chain, if there are, that is where you should concentrate your efforts.


When you getting around to modding the Vali2 anyways?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> When you getting around to modding the Vali2 anyways?


As soon as he gets done waxing his Volkswagen.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> When you getting around to modding the Vali2 anyways?


I know Jason at Schiit somewhat, and I do not want to get yelled at lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> As soon as he gets done waxing his Volkswagen.


Hush, at least all the doors and fenders are the correct color, unlike your purple, brown, and green Gremlin.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Hush, at least all the doors and fenders are the correct color, unlike your purple, brown, and green Gremlin.


Y'know, my wife is Eastern European, and apparently old Soviet Trabants were made out of cardboard. Just sayin'.

The joke in Romania is "Why do Trabants have seat belts? So when they break down, you can put your feet through the floorboards, stand up and walk them away."


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Y'know, my wife is Eastern European, and apparently old Soviet Trabants were made out of cardboard. Just sayin'.
> 
> The joke in Romania is "Why do Trabants have seat belts? So when they break down, you can put your feet through the floorboards, stand up and walk them away."


LOL, kind of like how do you get parts for a Fiat? You follow one around and wait for things to fall off.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hush, at least all the doors and fenders are the correct color, unlike your purple, brown, and green Gremlin.


Man, you are not keeping up.  I'm driving a BMW now.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Y'know, my wife is Eastern European, and apparently old Soviet Trabants were made out of cardboard. Just sayin'.
> 
> The joke in Romania is "Why do Trabants have seat belts? So when they break down, you can put your feet through the floorboards, stand up and walk them away."


What about the bygone Skoda Skada?..otherwise known as the “Scata”..


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> What about the bygone Skoda Skada?..otherwise known as the “Scata”..


Hah. My in-laws have two broken down Dacias from the '70's on their lawn as well. Less "cardboard piece of crap" and more "tank from hell." Remind me a lot of my first car which was an old Oldsmobile Delta 88. That sucker could win in a crash with a cement mixer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 3, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Y'know, my wife is Eastern European, and apparently old Soviet Trabants were made out of cardboard. Just sayin'.
> 
> The joke in Romania is "Why do Trabants have seat belts? So when they break down, you can put your feet through the floorboards, stand up and walk them away."


I just saw a very good show about cars for the masses, James May was the host. After WW 2 Japan and Germany were not allowed to rearm so they put a lot of work into designing cars. US and England were offered Volkswagen as part of war reparations and neither country wanted it.

Back to tubes.

The more I listen to one of these, the more impressed I am.  I have a 1954 with ceramic spacers in an Incubus right now. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-RFT-6SN...621867?hash=item36709dc56b:g:MdAAAOSwVJJf084f


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> The more I listen to one of these, the more impressed I am.  I have a 1954 with ceramic spacers in an Incubus right now.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-RFT-6SN...621867?hash=item36709dc56b:g:MdAAAOSwVJJf084f



Holy sticker shock Batman! Tell me you got them for a steal...


----------



## therremans (Mar 3, 2021)

This tube interested me. I love the name. link
I bring it up since it also has ceramic spacers and I had only seen that with Bendix 6080s.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> This tube interested me. I love the name. link
> I bring it up since it also has ceramic spacers and I had only seen that with Bendix 6080s.



I've owned a few different versions of the RFT 6SN7GT / 6H8C.  They are very nice, extremely robust construction with internal ceramic spacers, smooth plates.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here is one in my old Bottlehead Crackatwoa with a black base GEC 6AS7G, which are very rare.




I sold off my whole 6SN7 collection, but I have the equivalent 6J5 on hand, so all is well


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Holy sticker shock Batman! Tell me you got them for a steal...


More like $100 but I monetize most things having to do with electronics so I have zero cost in most items.  I cannot do this with the DV as much. Even to build an extension as I did for Mr Cowen, that could take a day and a half and he is doing final finishing.  It is also silly for me to make money trying to make a $200 amp sound like a $2,000 amp unless I do that for myself.  Many friends want high end tubes in the amps I design so some are used there. It is a reason my wife never cares what I pay for things, I paid $2,000 for my first computer but made nearly $100k my first year in knowledge gained.


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> I've owned a few different versions of the RFT 6SN7GT / 6H8C.  They are very nice, extremely robust construction with internal ceramic spacers, smooth plates.


I have read comments that RFT built for Telefunken but l have never researched it very much. Folks on here like @Old Deaf Donkey have much more knowledge about such things than I ever will.  I have a feeling he speaks four or five languages and that can help.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Hah. My in-laws have two broken down Dacias from the '70's on their lawn as well. Less "cardboard piece of crap" and more "tank from hell." Remind me a lot of my first car which was an old Oldsmobile Delta 88. That sucker could win in a crash with a cement mixer.


Even with the mixer loaded....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have a Vali 2 somewhere myself, and a highly modified Bottlehead Crack that will take a 6sn7 with adapter.  I plugged Utopias into a stock DV for maybe a minute but it was like putting a Rolls Royce grill on a Volkswagen. There should be no weak links in a musical chain, if there are, that is where you should concentrate your efforts.


Does the chauffeur for this vehicle wear a leisure suit (preferably lime green with white stitching...)?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Does the chauffeur for this vehicle wear a leisure suit (preferably lime green with white stitching...)?


Shhhh that is the suit @bcowen wears when he goes to court. You can see it better when the judge says "will the defendant please rise."


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, kind of like how do you get parts for a Fiat? You follow one around and wait for things to fall off.


_*F*_ixing  _*I*_t *  A*lways  *T*rouble...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Shhhh that is the suit @bcowen wears when he goes to court. You can see it better when the judge says "will the defendant please rise."


If @bcowen wears that before Judge @L0rdGwyn of Tube Court, will @bcowen automatically lose the right to plead “nolo contendere” to hoarding & trafficking in NOS tubes?...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If @bcowen wears that before Judge @L0rdGwyn of Tube Court, will @bcowen automatically lose the right to plead “nolo contendere” to hoarding & trafficking in NOS tubes?...


LOL!  Funny coincidence....I was just in court (or tried to anyway) this last Monday for the ticket my wife got for running the red light when she crashed her car last July.  Been postponed twice due to Covid, and now that the date was finally here they wouldn't let* me* in the courtroom -- only her, due to Covid.  I was fearing the worst with her doing all the talking, but the cop wasn't there (because he has Covid!!) so the judge dismissed it.  Didn't even have to pay court costs. Better thing is that it won't get to my insurance that already got smacked pretty hard with her accident.  Found out the cop is OK -- he hasn't had to be hospitalized, and I (truly) hope he gets better quickly.  He was very professional and extremely nice at the time of the accident.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Funny coincidence....I was just in court (or tried to anyway) this last Monday for the ticket my wife got for running the red light when she crashed her car last July.  Been postponed twice due to Covid, and now that the date was finally here they wouldn't let* me* in the courtroom -- only her, due to Covid.  I was fearing the worst with her doing all the talking, but the cop wasn't there (because he has Covid!!) so the judge dismissed it.  Didn't even have to pay court costs. Better thing is that it won't get to my insurance that already got smacked pretty hard with her accident.  Found out the cop is OK -- he hasn't had to be hospitalized, and I (truly) hope he gets better quickly.  He was very professional and extremely nice at the time of the accident.


Thank goodness everyone is OK / doing better. Quite an adventure!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I know Jason at Schiit somewhat, and I do not want to get yelled at lol.


I won't tell if you don't.

I'd still like to see you work your magic on a hybrid. You know, for the sake of being "inclusive"


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 3, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> I won't tell if you don't.
> 
> I'd still like to see you work your magic on a hybrid. You know, for the sake of being "inclusive"


And with the amazing woodwork!


----------



## SHIMACM

My Tung-Sol 6j5g valves arrived.

I loved her combination with Chatham 6as7g.

Very balanced and transparent sound.

Excellent sound stage.

Excellent extension both at the top and at the bottom.

I have to try other combinations.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I won't tell if you don't.
> 
> I'd still like to see you work your magic on a hybrid. You know, for the sake of being "inclusive"


I did some work with the Coaster amp, the Vali Mini, which is hybrid. Early on Jason sent the circuit boards to various people and I found an error in the schematic and bom so I was the first one to get it working outside of Schiit as far as I know. I did have a schematic, that is not the case with the Vali 2. There is only so much space to work inside that amp and I believe it carries the five year warranty from Schiit so I prefer not to give that up lol. The Coaster amp is different, it is a DIY project. 

I think I mounted the boards in nine different cabinets. I wanted to do a snow globe as well as mounting one inside a scotch bottle but I never achieved those goals.  I mounted a couple in headphone stands for @Ripper2860 as I recall.




.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I did some work with the Coaster amp, the Vali Mini, which is hybrid. Early on Jason sent the circuit boards to various people and I found an error in the schematic and bom so I was the first one to get it working outside of Schiit as far as I know. I did have a schematic, that is not the case with the Vali 2. There is only so much space to work inside that amp and I believe it carries the five year warranty from Schiit so I prefer not to give that up lol. The Coaster amp is different, it is a DIY project.
> 
> I think I mounted the boards in nine different cabinets. I wanted to do a snow globe as well as mounting one inside a scotch bottle but I never achieved those goals.  I mounted a couple in headphone stands for @Ripper2860 as I recall.
> .


The 8-Ball casing is really cool!  That is pretty badass.


----------



## DeweyCH

Turns out I did have a couple of other 6FQ7 tubes, a pair of RCAs. One of them buzzed like a pissed-off hornet, but this one sounds pretty nice. Extremely polite tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> The 8-Ball casing is really cool!  That is pretty badass.


I did some calculations and figured a Magic 8 ball was the right size, getting it apart was not easy but the Coaster fits perfectly inside and the 8 ball has a flat bottom so it is a great fit on a desk. I hand bent all the copper for the sphere.. I also did a cast of my hand and tried to replicate this sphere. I got close but remembering the proper finger placement is not easy when your hand is inside a gallon of molding material lol. At $30 a try I finally gave up.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I did some calculations and figured a Magic 8 ball was the right size, getting it apart was not easy but the Coaster fits perfectly inside and the 8 ball has a flat bottom so it is a great fit on a desk. I hand bent all the copper for the sphere.. I also did a cast of my hand and tried to replicate this sphere. I got close but remembering the proper finger placement is not easy when your hand is inside a gallon of molding material lol. At $30 a try I finally gave up.


With that spirit in mind, have you considered trying to 3d print a hand model?  I think that would be a lot more doable!


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

Originally I just wanted to change the pot for a RK27112A00AK since the old one had a channel imbalance until cranking it up to 10 o'clock. Read @L0rdGwyn post (thanks for double-checking) and applied his mods as well. Pretty satisfied now.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> With that spirit in mind, have you considered trying to 3d print a hand model?  I think that would be a lot more doable!


No but I do have access to five 3D printers, I am currently working on custom headphone stands that may incorporate some of my wife's pottery.  I sent a loaner Incubus amp to a friend and it did not get very far, I suddenly have to build more.

 I am also going to be finishing the inside of a pottery shed for my wife so I gain more shop room lol.


----------



## DeweyCH

DuncanDirkDick said:


> Originally I just wanted to change the pot for a RK27112A00AK since the old one had a channel imbalance until cranking it up to 10 o'clock. Read @L0rdGwyn post (thanks for double-checking) and applied his mods as well. Pretty satisfied now.


Why y'all all gotta be making me feel bad about my crap electronics skills... that's super impressive. Nice job. Is that XLR output actually balanced? And what did you put in there to block off where the pre outs used to be?


----------



## DeweyCH

And now I feel the need to replace the wires going to the headphone jack with a nice twisty pair like that.


----------



## Slade01

@DeweyCH - did you ever get a chance to resolve the humming and have a listen to your Visseaux tubes?  I'm just getting to mine now.  They are really good.  To me almost an oxymoron - they are smooth, but still very detailed, great imaging and extension across the board.  This is a pair that will definitely be hogging hours for the foreseeable future.


----------



## DuncanDirkDick (Mar 4, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Why y'all all gotta be making me feel bad about my crap electronics skills... that's super impressive. Nice job. Is that XLR output actually balanced? And what did you put in there to block off where the pre outs used to be?


No, it's single ended but the DV was my only amp with 6.3mm and I was tired of using adapters. One RCA was kinda wobbly. I replaced it with one of the others since I'm not using outs. Just some 3d printed plugs


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> And now I feel the need to replace the wires going to the headphone jack with a nice twisty pair like that.


It really is a good idea to use twisted pair there, @bcowen and I just discussed it the other day. I will show bonded twisted pair one day soon, I like to keep all twists identical.


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> @DeweyCH - did you ever get a chance to resolve the humming and have a listen to your Visseaux tubes?  I'm just getting to mine now.  They are really good.  To me almost an oxymoron - they are smooth, but still very detailed, great imaging and extension across the board.  This is a pair that will definitely be hogging hours for the foreseeable future.


Not yet, I'm going to try to build my Crack today so I have two 6SN7 amps and can see whether buzzing issues are amp vs. tubes. Happy to hear they sound good - looking forward to properly hearing mine.


----------



## DeweyCH

Total off-topic but y'all may get a kick out of it. I teach a university course and yesterday during class one of my students was presenting on auto insurance customers. Bullet point on his slide was that they "wouldn't switch on their own accord." I asked what if they drive a Civic.

Nothing like 30+ college-age blank faces staring blankly back at you on Zoom.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 4, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Turns out I did have a couple of other 6FQ7 tubes, a pair of RCAs. One of them buzzed like a pissed-off hornet, but this one sounds pretty nice. Extremely polite tube.


Which RCA you are using for power ?


----------



## therremans (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I hear you.  Regarding the Visseaux tubes, mine also had humming issues.  I just went through burning the tube in overnight, and its all but gone now.  Because I have even more super extreme crap skills in soldering (case in point, i accidentally melted an adapter while pin soldering), I maybe the last of a dying breed of a completely all stock un-modded dark voice on this thread.  I can say however, that burning-in tubes has resolved 98% of any tube humming issues i've ever had. The other 1% it was the tube having issues, and proof that they always burned alot brighter and led up to burning out.  And the last 1% is reserved for new-production/re-issue tubes, which for the life of me - I have never gotten to play on the DV without being super humming loud and obnoxious -- and this even having tried with copious amounts of burn in 100-300 hrs.  lol.  My DV middle fingers all new production new age tubes.


Maybe one of us can do the essential mods.


----------



## Paladin79

DuncanDirkDick said:


> No, it's single ended but the DV was my only amp with 6.3mm and I was tired of using adapters. One RCA was kinda wobbly. I replaced it with one of the others since I'm not using outs. Just some 3d printed plugs


I like to use pigtails for 3.5, 1/4 inch, and four pin XLR. I use mini four pin XLR male and females so I do not have to unplug the headphone connectors each time, normally I use four strands of litz wire or OCC, here is one in progress.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Not yet, I'm going to try to build my Crack today so I have two 6SN7 amps and can see whether buzzing issues are amp vs. tubes. Happy to hear they sound good - looking forward to properly hearing mine.


Are they shipping with the 6sn7 now or are you using an adapter?


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

Paladin79 said:


> I like to use pigtails for 3.5, 1/4 inch, and four pin XLR. I use mini four pin XLR male and females so I do not have to unplug the headphone connectors each time, normally I use four strands of litz wire or OCC, here is one in progress.


I was thinking about the same thing too but hadn't had the time yet to make new cables.


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> Not yet, I'm going to try to build my Crack today so I have two 6SN7 amps and can see whether buzzing issues are amp vs. tubes. Happy to hear they sound good - looking forward to properly hearing mine.



I hear you.  Regarding the Visseaux tubes, mine also had humming issues.  I just went through burning the tube in overnight, and its all but gone now.  Because I have even more super extreme crap skills in soldering (case in point, i accidentally melted an adapter while pin soldering), I maybe the last of a dying breed of a completely all stock un-modded dark voice on this thread.  I can say however, that burning-in tubes has resolved 98% of any tube humming issues i've ever had. The other 1% it was the tube having issues, and proof that they always burned alot brighter and led up to burning out.  And the last 1% is reserved for new-production/re-issue tubes, which for the life of me - I have never gotten to play on the DV without being super humming loud and obnoxious -- and this even having tried with copious amounts of burn in 100-300 hrs.  lol.  My DV middle fingers all new production new age tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Are they shipping with the 6sn7 now or are you using an adapter?


I'll be using an adapter.


----------



## Paladin79

DuncanDirkDick said:


> I was thinking about the same thing too but hadn't had the time yet to make new cables.


I do my own since I am working from home now but normally employees help out. I am fine once I remember the braid pattern lol.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Which RCA you are using for power ?


That's a Tung-Sol 5998 in the power socket.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> That's a Tung-Sol 5998 in the power socket.


A wonderful tube, they are getting rather expensive now. I bought several at around $60-$75 each but that is not so easy to do anymore. People building BH Cracks used to buy them up since it is glorious in that amp.


----------



## DeweyCH

Slade01 said:


> I hear you.  Regarding the Visseaux tubes, mine also had humming issues.  I just went through burning the tube in overnight, and its all but gone now.  Because I have even more super extreme crap skills in soldering (case in point, i accidentally melted an adapter while pin soldering), I maybe the last of a dying breed of a completely all stock un-modded dark voice on this thread.  I can say however, that burning-in tubes has resolved 98% of any tube humming issues i've ever had. The other 1% it was the tube having issues, and proof that they always burned alot brighter and led up to burning out.  And the last 1% is reserved for new-production/re-issue tubes, which for the life of me - I have never gotten to play on the DV without being super humming loud and obnoxious -- and this even having tried with copious amounts of burn in 100-300 hrs.  lol.  My DV middle fingers all new production new age tubes.


Honestly I might try re-installing the Fitz mod to see if that kills the hum in some of my remaining noisy tubes. The center tap and elevated heaters seem to help - quite a bit - but there's still tubes that are unusable, and I have no idea if it's the DV or them.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> A wonderful tube, they are getting rather expensive now. I bought several at around $60-$75 each but that is not so easy to do anymore. People building BH Cracks used to buy them up since it is glorious in that amp.


Well, when I'm done with my Crack (hopefully today or tomorrow) I'll experience that glory. It's a magnificent tube to be certain - I bought mine here on Head-Fi from @vintinfinity


----------



## HTSkywalker

Anyone tried this
https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tried this
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


Please if youre going to spend 100 bucks on that -- just spend the extra 20 dollars and get the RCA VT-231 Gray Glass right next to it.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tried this
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


It is a decent tube but I would shop on Ebay lol, that price is pretty high. I have heard most any 6sn7 equivalent made because a local group and I are collecting them for a comparison once Covid lets up. What different people think about a tube can vary so I try not to give my own impression.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tried this
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


Yup, that's a good one. That and the Shuguang were the first 2 upgrade amp tubes I got:






I sure as hell wouldn't pay $100 for it, though. I think mine was like $15 on eBay.


----------



## therremans (Mar 4, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tried this
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


These can be found for $5. I question that company and I think the only thing I purchased from them was a brand new tung sol gtb, my first tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Please if youre going to spend 100 bucks on that -- just spend the extra 20 dollars and get the RCA VT-231 Gray Glass right next to it.





HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tried this
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


I am tempted to send you a bunch of 6sn7's and 6as7g tubes just so you do not over pay lol.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-RCA-6SN7...867917?hash=item4b8dff544d:g:LjIAAOSwWENgPwfU


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I am tempted to send you a bunch of 6sn7's and 6as7g tubes just so you do not over pay lol.





Paladin79 said:


> It is a decent tube but I would shop on Ebay lol, that price is pretty high. I have heard most any 6sn7 equivalent made because a local group and I are collecting them for a comparison once Covid lets up. What different people think about a tube can vary so I try not to give my own impression.


I think @HTSkywalker has credit he has to burn at tubedepot if I remember correctly.  But yeah, that 100 dollar black plate RCA is super way overpriced.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I think @HTSkywalker has credit he has to burn at tubedepot if I remember correctly.  But yeah, that 100 dollar black plate RCA is super way overpriced.


Ah ok. The Grey glass is a much better recommendation.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I think @HTSkywalker has credit he has to burn at tubedepot if I remember correctly.  But yeah, that 100 dollar black plate RCA is super way overpriced.


Right, his store credit was discussed from TubeDepot and Amazon. Let's be honest, his amazon credit can be much better spent on just about anything else. As far as TubeDepot goes, I would much rather buy BBQ sauce from them than overpay for some common average sounding tubes. It just doesn't make sense to me when many of us already recommended cheap eBay finds to him.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Thanks to all of you guys for the help and input, am not pulling the trigger in that RCA, still browsing. But at least am set on the RCA 6AS7G for power at $50
Trying to stay away from the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB as I heard lots of "humming" around when it comes to this specific tube 😂


----------



## Slade01 (Mar 4, 2021)

therremans said:


> Right, his store credit was discussed from TubeDepot and Amazon. Let's be honest, his amazon credit can be much better spent on just about anything else. As far as TubeDepot goes, I would much rather buy BBQ sauce from them than overpay for some common average sounding tubes. It just doesn't make sense to me when many of us already recommended cheap eBay finds to him.


LOL.   @bcowen  take note when you're setting up your GE tube sellin', cardboard amp pimpin' bangybang type website....make sure you add Carolina BBQ sauce to your menu.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Right, his store credit was discussed from TubeDepot and Amazon. Let's be honest, his amazon credit can be much better spent on just about anything else. As far as TubeDepot goes, I would much rather buy BBQ sauce from them than overpay for some common average sounding tubes. It just doesn't make sense to me when many of us already recommended cheap eBay finds to him.


Well the BBQ sauce sounds a good idea 😎 
Probably I should buy from eBay regardless of my credit


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> These can be found for $5. I question that company and I think the only thing I purchased from them was a brand new tung sol gtb, my first tube.


Me too.  Here's what instantly turns me off:





Balanced triodes.  Balanced to what?  5%? 10%? 20%? 50%?  I consider a GM spread of 5% or less to be nicely balanced. Wonder what their parameters are -- they don't say.
High Gain?  I don't even know what that is.  High transconductance or emission (which don't directly translate to gain anyway)?  High relative to what?  
Low Noise and Microphonics?  Low is......what?  I would expect a noisy and/or microphonic tube NOT to be sold by a reputable dealer.

So spend an extra (possible) $8 per tube to get the tube that you should get in the first place?  Sorry, just bothers me.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> These can be found for $5. I question that company and I think the only thing I purchased from them was a brand new tung sol gtb, my first tube.


does it hum as much as the "humming" rumors around it ? it's pretty cheap though


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks to all of you guys for the help and input, am not pulling the trigger in that RCA, still browsing. But at least am set on the RCA 6AS7G for power at $50
> Trying to stay away from the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB as I heard lots of "humming" around when it comes to this specific tube 😂


The humming will go away. Mine did on a stock Darkvoice after an all night burner session. I do recall it being a tube that wasn't all that exciting but did sound better than the stock. It was my very first tube. There is really no need for that tube when there are plenty of cheap nos/used 6SN7s out there that sound better and cost less. I then bought a used RCA 6AS7G (orange label) off eBay for like $10 and another nos 50s version for $10-$14.. and then it started.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Right, his store credit was discussed from TubeDepot and Amazon. Let's be honest, his amazon credit can be much better spent on just about anything else. As far as TubeDepot goes, I would much rather buy BBQ sauce from them than overpay for some common average sounding tubes. It just doesn't make sense to me when many of us already recommended cheap eBay finds to him.


LOL!  And I agree.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> LOL.   @bcowen  take note when you're setting up your GE tube sellin', cardboard amp pimpin' bangybang type website....make sure you add Carolina BBQ sauce to your menu.



ROFL!  I was planning to set up a NC BBQ sauce selling site (just to help out people in TX) and offer tubes as accessories.  Maybe back to the drawing board.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I was planning to set up a NC BBQ sauce selling site (just to help out people in TX) and offer tubes as accessories.  Maybe back to the drawing board.


I deserve free NC BBQ sauce if anyone does!!!  Even when Bill lost a bet to me I sent him a couple bottles of wine.   

I was going to recommend looking on Etsy as well as Ebay. I have had good buying experiences with Lowtechelec but looking around on there today, I found the @bcowen  dream tube!!!!  I swear this is one tube that may not be in my local groups collection. I am tempted to buy it before Bill does. (mind you the top 52 will only be used in final testing.)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/907407598/ge-6sn7gt-vacuum-tube-early-logo-gray?ref=sold_out-9&frs=1

Just look at that fancy lettering! They do not come along like this one every day, I just wish they had a couple more photos showing manufacture codes lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I deserve free NC BBQ sauce if anyone does!!!  Even when Bill lost a bet to me I sent him a couple bottles of wine.
> 
> I was going to recommend looking on Etsy as well as Ebay. I have had good buying experiences with Lowtechelec but looking around on there today, I found the @bcowen  dream tube!!!!  I swear this is one tube that may not be in my local groups collection. I am tempted to buy it before Bill does. (mind you the top 52 will only be used in final testing.)
> 
> ...


am tempted toward the etsy site 😍am already browsing


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I deserve free NC BBQ sauce if anyone does!!!  Even when Bill lost a bet to me I sent him a couple bottles of wine.
> 
> I was going to recommend looking on Etsy as well as Ebay. I have had good buying experiences with Lowtechelec but looking around on there today, I found the @bcowen  dream tube!!!!  I swear this is one tube that may not be in my local groups collection. I am tempted to buy it before Bill does. (mind you the top 52 will only be used in final testing.)
> 
> ...


I must admit the lettering on that is way cool.  Makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made prior to the '50's.  I'll be happy to let you buy it so you can tell us how it sounds.  See?  I *am* a nice guy.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> am tempted toward the etsy site 😍am already browsing


I bought that GE tube hoping it is really an RCA or Ken-Rad lol. I had to act before @bcowen scooped it up lol. This should be prior to their dot system so I could not have used it in a GE tube challenge Bill and I had anyway.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I deserve free NC BBQ sauce if anyone does!!!  Even when Bill lost a bet to me I sent him a couple bottles of wine.
> 
> I was going to recommend looking on Etsy as well as Ebay. I have had good buying experiences with Lowtechelec but looking around on there today, I found the @bcowen  dream tube!!!!  I swear this is one tube that may not be in my local groups collection. I am tempted to buy it before Bill does. (mind you the top 52 will only be used in final testing.)
> 
> ...


Do you have a positive experience with this site ?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I must admit the lettering on that is way cool.  Makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made prior to the '50's.  I'll be happy to let you buy it so you can tell us how it sounds.  See?  I *am* a nice guy.


Already bought. I am already thinking of superlatives to make you think it is the greatest tube ever made!!!!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought that GE tube hoping it is really an RCA or Ken-Rad lol. I had to act before @bcowen scooped it up lol. This should be prior to their dot system so I could not have used it in a GE tube challenge Bill and I had anyway.


OMG SOLD lucky you, good luck 👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Do you have a positive experience with this site ?


Yes but as I said, the seller Lowtechelec is whom I usually buy from and I know and trust him. He lives fairly close to my son so I may visit his tube farm one day.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> OMG SOLD lucky you, good luck 👍


Luck can be such a relative thing, if it sucks I will add it to the other GE's I am stockpiling as part of Bill's inheritance.


----------



## therremans

You all got me hungry.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Yes but as I said, the seller Lowtechelec is whom I usually buy from and I know and trust him. He lives fairly close to my son so I may visit his tube farm one day.



I'll second this.  Jeffrey (Lowtechelec) is a really good guy - have bought a lot of tubes from him.  Responsive on chat, and prices his tubes very fairly.  

Regarding LeedsRadio - usually a little more pricier - but also occasionally comes into some interesting tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Luck can be such a relative thing, if it sucks I will add it to the other GE's I am stockpiling as part of Bill's inheritance.


mmmm the inheritance thought reminds me of my RC huge stock including lots of new engines and still boxed planes as I have 2 daughters


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> You all got me hungry.


Is that the BBQ sauce we were discussing ??? 😂😂😂


----------



## Ripper2860

Looks more like 'Sweet and Sour' to me.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> You all got me hungry.


Literally what


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'll second this.  Jeffrey (Lowtechelec) is a really good guy - have bought a lot of tubes from him.  Responsive on chat, and prices his tubes very fairly.
> 
> Regarding LeedsRadio - usually a little more pricier - but also occasionally comes into some interesting tubes.


I agree totally, I just bought this one out of curiosity and I do not believe we have one for our testing. Other GE's did NOT finish in the top 52 lol and I doubt this one will make the cut.  When all the testing is done those who contributed the most tubes that made the top 52 will own the top five tubes, second place will get the next five.  I tend to chew more than I bite off.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Is that the BBQ sauce we were discussing ??? 😂😂😂


That sure looks like what Bill would concoct. Bubba Bills BBQ Bonanza I believe it is called.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> mmmm the inheritance thought reminds me of my RC huge stock including lots of new engines and still boxed planes as I have 2 daughters


Luckily I have a son whom I started teaching electronics when he was very young. My wife would never figure out the electronics in my downstairs in 100 years, and he has taken up woodworking as well so he is apt to use those tools later on in life as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Yes but as I said, the seller Lowtechelec is whom I usually buy from and I know and trust him. He lives fairly close to my son so I may visit his tube farm one day.


Is that your guy ? he looks trustworthy. am already browsing his tubes


----------



## Paladin79

Yes, other friends buy from him as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

will check a suitable 6SN7 from his stock, prices are way better than other places


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> You all got me hungry.


* R O F L *!!!!

Is that Colorado BBQ sauce?  Looks more closely related to that sludge they use in TX, but I've never had any CO BBQ so can't comment reliably.


----------



## therremans

Ripper2860 said:


> Looks more like 'Sweet and Sour' to me.


Spicy Hawaiian rum bbq. It has pineapple in it. (bill, feel free to unfriend for that.)


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Do you have a positive experience with this site ?


Etsy is a seller's hosting site, similar to Ebay except they don't do auctions.  So the experience will be directly related to the seller you're dealing with.  I've bought a couple tubes from "Lowtechelec" who sells there with positive experiences both times.  Never bought anything from LeedsRadio myself, but others have reported good experiences.


----------



## Deceneu808

Ken Rad in


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Etsy is a seller's hosting site, similar to Ebay except they don't do auctions.  So the experience will be directly related to the seller you're dealing with.  I've bought a couple tubes from "Lowtechelec" who sells there with positive experiences both times.  Never bought anything from LeedsRadio myself, but others have reported good experiences.


LeedsRadio and Lowtechelec are the ones carrying the biggest variety


----------



## HTSkywalker

So far found those 2:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/880463...GTA&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/970325...GTB&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Ken Rad in


One of my favorites.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So far found those 2:
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/880463...GTA&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/970325...GTB&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1


You may want to make sure they ship outside the US, I am currently helping a gentleman in England buy some pricey tubes because a seller on Ebay would not ship there.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 4, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You may want to make sure they ship outside the US, I am currently helping a gentleman in England buy some pricey tubes because a seller on Ebay would not ship there.


Am shipping within the US to my forwarding address, thanks.
AM somehow lost in a big list with great prices
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=6sn7gtb
Would appreciate some lead 😭


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am shipping within the US to my forwarding address, thanks.
> AM somehow lost in a big list with great prices
> https://www.etsy.com/search?q=6sn7gtb
> Would appreciate some lead 😭


I am about to head into a company Zoom meeting so I cannot help right now, maybe others can. Also you should consider 6080 tubes as well as 7236 for the power tube in the DV, maybe folks here can talk to you about that.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am shipping within the US to my forwarding address, thanks.
> AM somehow lost in a big list with great prices
> https://www.etsy.com/search?q=6sn7gtb
> Would appreciate some lead 😭


Since you have shipping inside the US I will give you some tubes, just PM me the address and I will ship them in the next few days. It is better you hear some of them then make decisions.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am about to head into a company Zoom meeting so I cannot help right now, maybe others can. Also you should consider 6080 tubes as well as 7236 for the power tube in the DV, maybe folks here can talk to you about that.


If you have an email for the owner, it would be greatly appreciated


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 4, 2021)

DuncanDirkDick said:


> Originally I just wanted to change the pot for a RK27112A00AK since the old one had a channel imbalance until cranking it up to 10 o'clock. Read @L0rdGwyn post (thanks for double-checking) and applied his mods as well. Pretty satisfied now.



Nice job @DuncanDirkDick .  One word of advice, I would move the electrolytic smoothing cap away from the aluminum wirewound, it will get cooked where it is in the picture!  Bending the leads to make a little more distance should help some.


----------



## tameral (Mar 4, 2021)

If my darkvoice works fine with the stock 6sn7 tube - but I get a left channel hum with a Tung Sol 6sn7 tube - even after 192 hours of burn in with the 6as7 tube removed - what does that implicate? - bad 6sn7 tube or what?


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I do my own since I am working from home now but normally employees help out. I am fine once I remember the braid pattern lol.


Very interesting. All of my headphone terminations are 4.4mm because of my portable DAP but where I need to plug into a 6.3mm I have a 4.4mm to 6.3 adapter patch cord for that. So I do it on the amp side so I do not have to unplug any of my headphone cords.


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice job @DuncanDirkDick .  One word of advice, I would move the electrolytic smoothing cap away from the aluminum wirewound, it will get cooked where it is in the picture!  Bending the leads to make a little more distance should help some.


Good point, I think it looks worse than it is but I'll check. Might as well find out why the led is so dark. Maybe the 1k (2k parallel) resistor is still to much


----------



## SHIMACM

My Brimar 6sn7 arrived.

Now I understand why they say that the sound of this valve is unique.

What a beautiful sound.

They said it was only slightly better than RCA vt231 gray glass.

But I say that it is not a little, it is much better.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

tameral said:


> If my darkvoice works fine with the stock 6sn7 tube - but I get a left channel hum with a Tung Sol 6sn7 tube - even after 192 hours of burn in with the 6as7 tube removed - what does that implicate? - bad 6sn7 tube or what?



This thread needs some sort of sticky, or the DarkVoice an included disclaimer sticker.

Straight to the point, the DarkVoice has some design flaws.  The heaters are not appropriately wired in the stock amp, which contributes to the hum.  It can be improved or eliminated with modifications.  Otherwise, you have to try different tubes to find 6SN7 that have low heater-to-cathode leakage and will not hum.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I was planning to set up a NC BBQ sauce selling site (just to help out people in TX) and offer tubes as accessories.  Maybe back to the drawing board.


I like mustard in my BBQ sauce so you know what state I'm in..


----------



## tameral

L0rdGwyn said:


> This thread needs some sort of sticky, or the DarkVoice an included disclaimer sticker.
> 
> Straight to the point, the DarkVoice has some design flaws.  The heaters are not appropriately wired in the stock amp, which contributes to the hum.  It can be improved or eliminated with modifications.  Otherwise, you have to try different tubes to find 6SN7 that have low heater-to-cathode leakage and will not hum.


Thanks for the reply - I went into the darkvoice knowing about this issue - but was told 3-5 days of burn in...On two (new 6sn7gtb) tung sol tubes I've never gotten rid of the hum - one going on 7 days of burn in - still humming, the other Tung sol I did 10 days and gave up.

Recommended modern tubes that do well?  Or do I have to demand the dealer test the tube for low heater to cathode leakage?

Regards


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I like mustard in my BBQ sauce so you know what state I'm in..


The state of confusion?


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> If my darkvoice works fine with the stock 6sn7 tube - but I get a left channel hum with a Tung Sol 6sn7 tube - even after 192 hours of burn in with the 6as7 tube removed - what does that implicate? - bad 6sn7 tube or what?


Just indicates Darkvoice being Darkvoice.


----------



## Slade01

tameral said:


> If my darkvoice works fine with the stock 6sn7 tube - but I get a left channel hum with a Tung Sol 6sn7 tube - even after 192 hours of burn in with the 6as7 tube removed - what does that implicate? - bad 6sn7 tube or what?



It implicates bad luck, friend.  The experiences varies.  Some users - That new production Tung Sol 6SN7 hum goes away after an overnight of burn in.  Users like me - I gave up after 300 hrs of burn time and still humming.  Its not the tube.  That same tube is clear as crystal when I used it in a Schiit Vali 2.  My DV hates new production tubes.  So I just go with better NOS tubes and call it a day.  But everyone's experience varies for sure.

Mods can help mitigate the humming overall if you're brave enough with a soldering iron.


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> Thanks for the reply - I went into the darkvoice knowing about this issue - but was told 3-5 days of burn in...On two (new 6sn7gtb) tung sol tubes I've never gotten rid of the hum - one going on 7 days of burn in - still humming, the other Tung sol I did 10 days and gave up.
> 
> Recommended modern tubes that do well?  Or do I have to demand the dealer test the tube for low heater to cathode leakage?
> 
> Regards


It's highly unlikely you'll be able to find someone who can accurately say whether or not a particular tube they're selling will hum or not in your particular Darkvoice. In my experience the options are twofold: one, mod the DV; or two, accept that pretty much every tube you stick in that 6SN7 socket is going to be a roll of the dice.


----------



## tameral (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> It implicates bad luck, friend.  The experiences varies.  Some users - That new production Tung Sol 6SN7 hum goes away after an overnight of burn in.  Users like me - I gave up after 300 hrs of burn time and still humming.  Its not the tube.  That same tube is clear as crystal when I used it in a Schiit Vali 2.  My DV hates new production tubes.  So I just go with better NOS tubes and call it a day.  But everyone's experience varies for sure.
> 
> Mods can help mitigate the humming overall if you're brave enough with a soldering iron.


This tends to be my assumption.  I think some darkvoice are better than others mayhaps.  Have you tried the Psvane tubes? What do you recommend?


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Am shipping within the US to my forwarding address, thanks.
> AM somehow lost in a big list with great prices
> https://www.etsy.com/search?q=6sn7gtb
> Would appreciate some lead 😭


I really like the sound of the Sylvania VT-99, and Lowtechelec has one for sale with adapter included for under $70. There's also, if you want to drive the price down, a nice Motorola-branded NOS Tung-Sol for $20.


----------



## DeweyCH

Put the cathode bypass caps back in and now I can listen to these without gargantuan hum:






So now I've got the virtual center tap + elevated heaters + Fitz mod. If ANYTHING hums on this motherf***er I'm throwing it into traffic.


----------



## Slade01

tameral said:


> This tends to be my assumption.  I think some darkvoice are better than others mayhaps.  Have you tried the Psvane tubes? What do you recommend?


I've only tried Psvane's predecessor - the Shuguang Black Treasure CV181z.  That tube was surprisingly good - great soundstage and resolution.    I haven't tried the Psvane line directly, but if its anywhere near as good as the Black Treasure was, then its definitely worth a look.  I am assuming they would have greatly improved on the black treasure with Psvane's design iterations


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I am also going to be finishing the inside of a pottery shed for my wife so I gain more shop room lol.



So does this mean your wife is now your source for tube sockets?



Paladin79 said:


> I do my own since I am working from home now but normally employees help out.


----------



## tameral

Slade01 said:


> I've only tried Psvane's predecessor - the Shuguang Black Treasure CV181z.  That tube was surprisingly good - great soundstage and resolution.    I haven't tried the Psvane line directly, but if its anywhere near as good as the Black Treasure was, then its definitely worth a look.  I am assuming they would have greatly improved on the black treasure with Psvane's design iterations


Since I may have a Darkvoice like yours that is very picky with tubes - what tubes have worked best for you?  Thanks


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Put the cathode bypass caps back in and now I can listen to these without gargantuan hum:
> 
> 
> 
> So now I've got the virtual center tap + elevated heaters + Fitz mod. If ANYTHING hums on this motherf***er I'm throwing it into traffic.





Mr Trev said:


> So does this mean your wife is now your source for tube sockets?


my wife does not know about the tube sockets yet lol.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 4, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> If ANYTHING hums on this motherf***er I'm throwing it into traffic.


When you do take pictures please...bonus for video 

The Fitz Mod will be taking dynamics away right? Worth it for the tubes?


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> When you do take pictures please...bonus for video


----------



## DeweyCH

On taking dynamics away, we’ll see


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


>


Whats the song to this scene..."feels good to be a gangsta"?


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> Whats the song to this scene..."feels good to be a gangsta"?


----------



## Slade01

tameral said:


> Since I may have a Darkvoice like yours that is very picky with tubes - what tubes have worked best for you?  Thanks



My own darkvoice was easy to figure out.  It likes everything NOS or Vintage tubes and hates virtually everything New Production/New-Issue (the black treasure was the exception to the rule).  Of all the NOS/Vintage tubes...i've purchased over half of them hummed initially, but they all resolved with enough burn-in time.  

Also i'll add that with that humming...you can't forget about the power tube.  A bad power tube can also cause unwanted hum/distortion as well.  So don't pin the blame all on the driver tube.  

Literally hard to recommend tubes - they are so many factors and preferences to consider outside of whether a tube will work.   If you are looking for recommendations, at least let us know if you have a certain budget, or looking to find something that sounds best for a particular music genre - or if you want the coloration emphasized n certain areas (treble, mids, bass, etc.).  People here will better be able to help.


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


>



Right? Different song, same group. Awesome movie.


----------



## tameral (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> My own darkvoice was easy to figure out.  It likes everything NOS or Vintage tubes and hates virtually everything New Production/New-Issue (the black treasure was the exception to the rule).  Of all the NOS/Vintage tubes...i've purchased over half of them hummed initially, but they all resolved with enough burn-in time.
> 
> Also i'll add that with that humming...you can't forget about the power tube.  A bad power tube can also cause unwanted hum/distortion as well.  So don't pin the blame all on the driver tube.
> 
> Literally hard to recommend tubes - they are so many factors and preferences to consider outside of whether a tube will work.   If you are looking for recommendations, at least let us know if you have a certain budget, or looking to find something that sounds best for a particular music genre - or if you want the coloration emphasized n certain areas (treble, mids, bass, etc.).  People here will better be able to help.


That's great feedback.  I'm prepared for my own journey of course.  Maybe I ought put in the nice 6as7 I bought with the Tung Sol (Winged C) - I've been testing using the stock 6as7 - but the thing is the stock tubes are dead quiet...so I've just been putting in the stock 6as7 briefly to test the hum on the Tung sol before removing and resuming burn in


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

To make things a little easier for @HTSkywalker  I am going to gift the following tubes so he can understand what an RCA sounds like compared to a Sylvania compared to a Tung Sol or Ken Rad. Also a Melz and Foton will be in the 6sn7 group. I will also give him a Svetlana winged C and a 6080WA Sylvania. I may look for a few more tubes soon, oh and I have a GE in the group just so he knows what to expect lol. Grey glass RCA and black glass mystery tube included.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> To make things a little easier for @HTSkywalker  I am going to gift the following tubes so he can understand what an RCA sounds like compared to a Sylvania compared to a Tung Sol or Ken Rad. Also a Melz and Foton will be in the 6sn7 group. I will also give him a Svetlana winged C and a 6080WA Sylvania. I may look for a few more tubes soon, oh and I have a GE in the group just so he knows what to expect lol. Grey glass RCA and black glass mystery tube included.


Man!  That's pretty sweet...and generous.  I take back all the bad things I've ever said about you (mostly)....you have any others you need to gift?


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> .....black glass mystery tube included.


What is making the black glass a mystery tube?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Man!  That's pretty sweet...and generous.  I take back all the bad things I've ever said about you (mostly)....you have any others you need to gift?


Which GE's do you want, the shiny ones or the ones Finnegan has been knocking around the floor?  Oh and I believe you give me tubes, although I may have given you a 63 Melz once upon a time.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> What is making the black glass a mystery tube?


The fact that only I know what it is, if I told you, it would not be a mystery lol. This is my way of showing regardless of what brand name is on a tube, you need to know the origin. I have so many rebranded GE, Sylvania, and RCA it is not even funny. This one was not made by those companies, that should help a bit.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Put the cathode bypass caps back in and now I can listen to these without gargantuan hum:
> 
> 
> 
> So now I've got the virtual center tap + elevated heaters + Fitz mod. If ANYTHING hums on this motherf***er I'm throwing it into traffic.


Well that's good news and not good news.  The glass is half empty and half full at the same time.     I was hoping that elevating the heaters, reducing the heater voltage, and getting the heater wires twisted would take care of all that.  I was one of the lucky ones with a DV that only had low level hum (with most tubes) initially, but wanted to get the (Fitz) bypass caps out after doing the rest of @L0rdGwyn 's mods.  Questions:

1) Did you add the resistors to drop the voltage to the heaters? Seems that if the hum is predominantly caused by heater-to-cathode leakage in the tube that decreasing the voltage can _only_ help by reducing the current flowing between them.
2) Did you scrape the paint where the earth ground wire is screwed into the chassis from the IEC socket (that dropped the hum level in mine right off the bat)?
3) I think twisting the wiring between the HP jack and circuit board will be of additional help, but guessing you haven't had a chance to try that yet?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Which GE's do you want, the shiny ones or the ones Finnegan has been knocking around the floor?  Oh and I believe you give me tubes, although I may have given you a 63 Melz once upon a time.


I'll take any GE-labeled tube you have that was made by someone else.  Does that help?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'll take any GE-labeled tube you have that was made by someone else.  Does that help?


Sorry no. You also do not get my VT-231 GE or the grey glass I just ordered. I believe it was a J Geil's song that applies here, "serves you right to suffer"


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I'll take any GE-labeled tube you have that was made by someone else.  Does that help?





Paladin79 said:


> The fact that only I know what it is, if I told you, it would not be a mystery lol. This is my way of showing regardless of what brand name is on a tube, you need to know the origin. I have so many rebranded GE, Sylvania, and RCA it is not even funny.


@Paladin79 I hear ya about knowing origins.  Yeah that was a lesson I learned when considering some 6J5 tubes on the other thread.  The labels/printing can be completely deceptive, but you can't fake the internal construction.  That being said, that GE Gray Glass you bought today - yeah i've never seen any actually made GE have a bottom getter.  Maybe my experience is limited, but the real "Accountant Made" GE's are always the nifty side getter/dot etched ones that @bcowen really....adores.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> @Paladin79 I hear ya about knowing origins.  Yeah that was a lesson I learned when considering some 6J5 tubes on the other thread.  The labels/printing can be completely deceptive, but you can't fake the internal construction.  That being said, that GE Gray Glass you bought today - yeah i've never seen any actually made GE have a bottom getter.  Maybe my experience is limited, but the real "Accountant Made" GE's are always the nifty side getter/dot etched ones that @bcowen really....adores.


Bill made me use those side getter dot etched GE's in a bet he lost to me, he came within one tube of winning. I would say five of the tubes I sent him were top self so he had pretty good odds of picking the GE. He was also using a LYR 3 which I find amazing. Had he had one of my amps at the time I would have been buying him a big bottle of wine and steak dinner lol.  I listened to more GE tubes than most other humans and probably spent $1,000 to win a $100 bet but it was great fun and Bill picked many of the tubes correctly, blind. I am not sure many people could have done that.

Now if anyone else wants to try, they know where to find me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry no. You also do not get my VT-231 GE or the grey glass I just ordered. I believe it was a J Geil's song that applies here, "serves you right to suffer"



Fine.  Then the only response I have is:


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @Paladin79 I hear ya about knowing origins.  Yeah that was a lesson I learned when considering some 6J5 tubes on the other thread.  The labels/printing can be completely deceptive, but you can't fake the internal construction.  That being said, that GE Gray Glass you bought today - yeah i've never seen any actually made GE have a bottom getter.  Maybe my experience is limited, but the real "Accountant Made" GE's are always the nifty side getter/dot etched ones that @bcowen really....adores.


LOL!  Can't fake those etched dots either....unless you etched some_ into_ a tube to make it look like a GE.  But I don't think even newbies would disfigure and mutilate a nice tube like that.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Fine.  Then the only response I have is:


Wait a minute, he has been in the news lately and certainly a body like that would get him acquitted!


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Can't fake those etched dots either....unless you etched some_ into_ a tube to make it look like a GE.  But I don't think even newbies would disfigure and mutilate a nice tube like that.


I do have the tube that came with the DV, that could probably compete with a GE, I will no doubt slide that into any future blind wagers.    I think I am going in the wrong direction when I search for crappy tubes that might sound like a GE lol.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

So, I THINK @Galapac 's "DarkVoice" is done, finally.

I replaced the reservoir cap with a 5000 hour 105C rated 470uF electrolytic.  I squeezed a beefier heatsink on the HV regulator MOSFET, which dropped the operating temperature 25C.  I replaced the Solen gyrator caps with Sonicaps.

Just have to take some final measurements, and can close the book on this one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> So does this mean your wife is now your source for tube sockets?


Better keep "THE WIFE" away from such forums and tube business as I have a strong feeling they don't appreciate those beautiful looking shiny diamonds 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> To make things a little easier for @HTSkywalker  I am going to gift the following tubes so he can understand what an RCA sounds like compared to a Sylvania compared to a Tung Sol or Ken Rad. Also a Melz and Foton will be in the 6sn7 group. I will also give him a Svetlana winged C and a 6080WA Sylvania. I may look for a few more tubes soon, oh and I have a GE in the group just so he knows what to expect lol. Grey glass RCA and black glass mystery tube included.


Jesus man, Christmas came too early. am forever thankful 🥰🥰🥰 you made me speechless (but can still write a big THANK YOU)


----------



## qingcai (Mar 4, 2021)

tameral said:


> Thanks for the reply - I went into the darkvoice knowing about this issue - but was told 3-5 days of burn in...On two (new 6sn7gtb) tung sol tubes I've never gotten rid of the hum - one going on 7 days of burn in - still humming, the other Tung sol I did 10 days and gave up.
> 
> Recommended modern tubes that do well?  Or do I have to demand the dealer test the tube for low heater to cathode leakage?
> 
> Regards


There are many solutions to solve the hum:
1, *fitz mod: *
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5248489
2, *led bias*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-15903425
3, *central tap*
4, *Elevated Heater Supply*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16182719

replace the heater wire with twisted one also help, like this in the post https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16218098


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Man!  That's pretty sweet...and generous.  I take back all the bad things I've ever said about you (mostly)....you have any others you need to gift?


Nahhh


----------



## therremans (Mar 4, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> So, I THINK @Galapac 's "DarkVoice" is done, finally.
> 
> I replaced the reservoir cap with a 5000 hour 105C rated 470uF electrolytic.  I squeezed a beefier heatsink on the HV regulator MOSFET, which dropped the operating temperature 25C.  I replaced the Solen gyrator caps with Sonicaps.
> 
> Just have to take some final measurements, and can close the book on this one.






Do you know where I can locate the parts?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Jesus man, Christmas came too early. am forever thankful 🥰🥰🥰 you made me speechless (but can still write a big THANK YOU)


Once you know what you like, you can pursue higher levels within the same tube brands. The grey glass RCA tube is one of the top tubes you will receive and does well in the blind studies I have conducted. I have done a lot of work with the Russian Melz as has @bcowen with Fotons so you have some representative tubes among them.  I own a lot of tubes and have many duplicates so I will look around more in the next couple days.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 4, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Once you know what you like, you can pursue higher levels within the same tube brands. The grey glass RCA tube is one of the top tubes you will receive and does well in the blind studies I have conducted. I have done a lot of work with the Russian Melz as has @bcowen with Fotons so you have some representative tubes among them.  I own a lot of tubes and have many duplicates so I will look around more in the next couple days.


Well can't wait as my DarkVoice is on its way with DHL.
Will definitely test every single combination and give back my input and impressions. Both my Elear and Ananda leaks a lot of music so I better conceal few doors to do the testing.🙄🙄


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well can't wait as my DarkVoice is on its way with DHL.


I will give a listen to all tubes before shipping them in one of my own amps. If you get hum, suspect the DV.  I need to get busy building one of these, in black walnut. Each is unique so I have to figure out what changes I will make.


----------



## qingcai

are you selling the wood box?


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 4, 2021)

therremans said:


> Do you know where I can locate the parts?



This is a voltage regulator, a particular type, Maida style although an improvement over the original design that is decades old.  The particular design in this amp I cannot provide as it is not mine, it is a friend's.

If you want to try and implement something similar in the DarkVoice, or any other amplifier for that matter, try this similar regulator from Neurochrome.

https://neurochrome.com/products/21st-century-maida-regulator

Tom at Neurochrome includes the implementation documentation with purchase.  BUT prior knowledge of electronics is assumed beforehand, so you might want to learn how a linear power supply works, how a tube amp works, etc. before taking something like this on.

In terms of what it offers over a passive RC filtered supply like in the DarkVoice: small footprint, miniscule output impedance across the audio band, massive filtering capabilities that could only be equaled with a huge multi-choke passive supply, removes electrolytic power supply caps from the signal path, less voltage dropped across the supply vs. RC filtering, so a higher attainable B+ for better tube biasing flexibility and additional headroom for an active load on the 6SN7.

Better sound, essentially.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2021)

qingcai said:


> are you selling the wood box?


The extension for the Darkvoice?  No, I built one as a favor for Bill.

The photo I am showing is of one of my Incubus amps, I have built the entire amp for friends, my design. I try to make every case look different. Here are a couple more.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Also @therremans , using the voltage regulator allowed me to make space in the chassis for the gyrator boards by removing the bulky passive supply caps, so one could not have been done without the other.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> This is a voltage regulator, a particular type, Maida style although an improvement over the original design that is decades old.  The particular design in this amp I cannot provide as it is not mine, it is a friend's.
> 
> If you want to try and implement something similar in the DarkVoice, or any other amplifier for that matter, try this similar regulator from Neurochrome.
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you. I will look into it and would have to probably measure to figure out which power cap to use if it follows a similar design as your friends. Is there a similar preloaded CCS load that you know of, that would work in this application? I am making a parts order


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> Also @therremans , using the voltage regulator allowed me to make space in the chassis for the gyrator boards by removing the bulky passive supply caps, so one could not have been done without the other.


So using the voltage regulator allowed you to remove the three rear power caps (for one), the additional four power caps (2 on each side). I didn't realize that. So to do the CCS loads, you need to do the Voltage regulator upgrade first.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will give a listen to all tubes before shipping them in one of my own amps. If you get hum, suspect the DV.  I need to get busy building one of these, in black walnut. Each is unique so I have to figure out what changes I will make.


And if the DV is humming, what’s the remedy ? 😭😭


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 4, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> The extension for the Darkvoice?  No, I built one as a favor for Bill.
> 
> The photo I am showing is of one of my Incubus amps, I have built the entire amp for friends, my design. I try to make every case look different. Here are a couple more.


The wood work on those looks awesome. Just realized the rabbit hole i got myself into 😂 only when I thought my RC hobby would be consuming all my spare time.


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> And if the DV is humming, what’s the remedy ? 😭😭


https://www.amazon.com/s?k=soldering+station+digital&ref=nb_sb_noss_2


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Okay, thank you. I will look into it and would have to probably measure to figure out which power cap to use if it follows a similar design as your friends. Is there a similar preloaded CCS load that you know of, that would work in this application? I am making a parts order



If you want to use a CCS instead of a gyrator, which you definitely could, try Kevin at K&K Audio's CCS kits.  He also has some other useful kits (soft start, time delay, etc.).  He is also the US supplier for Lundahl transformers.  He has taken a lot of my money as a result 

http://www.kandkaudio.com/other-kits/

Oh I forgot to mention, the Maida regulator used also has built in soft start as well.  It is basically a one-stop-shop for a badass power supply in a small footprint.



therremans said:


> So using the voltage regulator allowed you to remove the three rear power caps (for one), the additional four power caps (2 on each side). I didn't realize that. So to do the CCS loads, you need to do the Voltage regulator upgrade first.



You could potentially add CCS loads with the passive supply in place, but where will they fit in the chassis?  That is the question.  Also, for a CCS load, you have to have enough voltage headroom to cover the full peak-to-peak swing of the tube being loaded plus something called the "dropout voltage" of the CCS.  A certain amount of voltage needs to always be present across it for it to function, usually on the order of 10-20V.  So subtract 20V from the 150V B+ of the DarkVoice, you have 130V left.  Stock the 6SN7 is biased with 70V on the plate, if memory serves.  That means it should be able to swing 130V-70V = 60Vpeak.  That is plenty.  The final RC of the supply would no longer be needed so the CCS and output tube could be run off the same capacitor, the second to last cap in the supply.  That MIGHT give you enough room for a small CCS board where the last cap is living, but it will still be tight.  I would read up on what a CCS is, how it functions, how to bias a tube using a CCS load.  A Google search should get you some results.  I probably talked about it somewhere on my DIY thread as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=soldering+station+digital&ref=nb_sb_noss_2


It’s here already and seems it should be un-dusted


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The wood work on those like awesome


Thanks, people also seem to like the sound, I can only think of one person who heard it that did not want one soon after. Some want two.


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> So, I THINK @Galapac 's "DarkVoice" is done, finally.
> 
> I replaced the reservoir cap with a 5000 hour 105C rated 470uF electrolytic.  I squeezed a beefier heatsink on the HV regulator MOSFET, which dropped the operating temperature 25C.  I replaced the Solen gyrator caps with Sonicaps.
> 
> Just have to take some final measurements, and can close the book on this one.


Thanks much @L0rdGwyn for doing this. I think many will benefit from your documented work and I for one get a better Hot Rodded amp, formally known as DV. Are you going to put it on the tracer or osciloscope before it ships to check the readings to compare as you did when you first received it? Just curious.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> And if the DV is humming, what’s the remedy ? 😭😭


I wouldn't go there until you give the generous tube donation a try first. You should be fine.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I wouldn't go there until you give the generous tube donation a try first. You should be fine.


I may test some of the tubes in my virgin DV as well and I can always mark them if I notice any problems that do not appear in other amps. I already know all my DV changes but I will do them in one day and add the cabinet the second day.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Galapac said:


> Thanks much @L0rdGwyn for doing this. I think many will benefit from your documented work and I for one get a better Hot Rodded amp, formally known as DV. Are you going to put it on the tracer or osciloscope before it ships to check the readings to compare as you did when you first received it? Just curious.



You know I already have, although I didn't record the measurements.  To be completely honest, the measurements are not worth publishing, they are not drastically different, even if the sound is.  The reason is the harmonic distortion spectrum of the amplifier is dominated by the output stage, which remains resistively loaded as in stock.  It is completely second harmonic at around the same level as the original, about 0.2% THD at 1mW into 300ohms with a 6AS7G, 0.12% THD with a 5998 / 421A.  Distortion in the driver stage is definitely down with the active load, but it is swamped out by the output stage, if that makes sense.  Low frequency rolloff is improved with the higher output capacitance, and that is reflected in the square waves.

I hope a verbal synopsis will suffice, sorry, just got off five 13-hour night shifts straight so I am trying to wrap this up and get my life back in order


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> You know I already have, although I didn't record the measurements.  To be completely honest, the measurements are not worth publishing, they are not drastically different, even if the sound is.  The reason is the harmonic distortion spectrum of the amplifier is dominated by the output stage, which remains resistively loaded as in stock.  It is completely second harmonic at around the same level as the original, about 0.2% THD at 1mW into 300ohms with a 6AS7G, 0.12% THD with a 5998 / 421A.  Distortion in the driver stage is definitely down with the active load, but it is swamped out by the output stage, if that makes sense.  Low frequency rolloff is improved with the higher output capacitance, and that is reflected in the square waves.
> 
> I hope a verbal synopsis will suffice, sorry, just got off five 13-hour night shifts straight so I am trying to wrap this up and get my life back in order


I’m fine and thanks again. I was most interested in this:  _Low frequency rolloff is improved with the higher output capacitance_


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> And if the DV is humming, what’s the remedy ? 😭😭


Teach it the words?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Well that's good news and not good news.  The glass is half empty and half full at the same time.     I was hoping that elevating the heaters, reducing the heater voltage, and getting the heater wires twisted would take care of all that.  I was one of the lucky ones with a DV that only had low level hum (with most tubes) initially, but wanted to get the (Fitz) bypass caps out after doing the rest of @L0rdGwyn 's mods.  Questions:
> 
> 1) Did you add the resistors to drop the voltage to the heaters? Seems that if the hum is predominantly caused by heater-to-cathode leakage in the tube that decreasing the voltage can _only_ help by reducing the current flowing between them.
> 2) Did you scrape the paint where the earth ground wire is screwed into the chassis from the IEC socket (that dropped the hum level in mine right off the bat)?
> 3) I think twisting the wiring between the HP jack and circuit board will be of additional help, but guessing you haven't had a chance to try that yet?


I didn’t do any of those actually. Need to figure out the right resistors for dropping voltage. I know it varies from unit to unit. You mentioned scraping the paint before, I can’t recall why I didn’t go through with it but it seems straightforward so I’ll do that later tonight if I have a chance. And yeah, I plan on twisting the wires going to the jack now that I know it’s a thing.

I’ll take another crack later with these. For tonight I’m hoping to finish my Crack build though. Next step is the heater wires, should be able to wrap it up and then go back to tinkering with the DV.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Teach it the words?


Dewey you should be on the stage...... the first one out of town.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Dewey you should be on the stage...... the first one out of town.


Next tell me I should sing solo. Let’s finish this awful dad joke chain of events.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Next tell me I should sing solo...


I'd rather listen to a GE.


----------



## tameral (Mar 4, 2021)

nm


----------



## therremans (Mar 4, 2021)

7N7 tube - looks like a good score to me, tall bottle, likely Sylvania made.
7N7 to 6SN7 adapter

GE 5692 Brown base - highly recommend if it sounds like my red base. Typo in test results. Good price.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here ya go @Galapac  see bottom left corner for FR at ~20Hz.

DarkVoice stock FR 1mW into 300ohms, output capacitance 30uF.




Here is the FR into various impedances on the revamped DarkVoice, 66uF output capacitance.

300ohm



120ohm



80ohm



32ohm


----------



## tameral

qingcai said:


> There are many solutions to solve the hum:
> 1, *fitz mod: *
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dv-336se-hum-fitz-mod.353079/page-2#post-5248489
> 2, *led bias*
> ...



Which of these would be best to take to a tech to have them do - with respect to best addressing the issue vs ease of the job?

I love the darkvoice sound - but this hum issue aggravates my somewhat perfectionistic nature.


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> Which of these would be best to take to a tech to have them do - with respect to best addressing the issue vs ease of the job?
> 
> I love the darkvoice sound - but this hum issue aggravates my somewhat perfectionistic nature.


They all have their pluses and minuses. Fitz mod is pretty much the most guaranteed to stop the hum of what I’ve done but degrades sound quality a touch (I can’t hear it frankly) by putting capacitors into the music path. Central tap and elevating the heaters are the right things to do regardless of hum but in mine still left some tubes humming badly. Led bias I haven’t tried. All are really easy if you have a soldering iron. I’m a total newbie to soldering and pulled them off without much pain.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> I’m a total newbie to soldering and pulled them off without much pain.


Does that mean you have not shocked yourself or just a little?


----------



## qingcai

tameral said:


> Which of these would be best to take to a tech to have them do - with respect to best addressing the issue vs ease of the job?
> 
> I love the darkvoice sound - but this hum issue aggravates my somewhat perfectionistic nature.


#4

I did #3, and #2, still have slight hum when with RCA 6sn7, the hum is almost not noticeable. will try #4 and twisted wire.

#1 will increase the amp gain. I tried and removed. 
#1, #2 can not do together.    
and #3, #4 also need to pick one from them.


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> Does that mean you have not shocked yourself or just a little?


No stock just burned


----------



## qingcai

Galapac said:


> I’m fine and thanks again. I was most interested in this:  _Low frequency rolloff is improved with the higher output capacitance_


http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/High-pass-filter-calculator.php
you can calculate it here. the darkvoice 336 has stock 30uf capacitor, check your headphone specs about impedance .
my planar 32ohm doesn't like the darvoice, but two sennheisers like it(300ohm,600ohm).


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 5, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Put the cathode bypass caps back in and now I can listen to these without gargantuan hum:
> 
> 
> 
> So now I've got the virtual center tap + elevated heaters + Fitz mod. If ANYTHING hums on this motherf***er I'm throwing it into traffic.


How you liking them Silvertones?


----------



## tameral

DeweyCH said:


> They all have their pluses and minuses. Fitz mod is pretty much the most guaranteed to stop the hum of what I’ve done but degrades sound quality a touch (I can’t hear it frankly) by putting capacitors into the music path. Central tap and elevating the heaters are the right things to do regardless of hum but in mine still left some tubes humming badly. Led bias I haven’t tried. All are really easy if you have a soldering iron. I’m a total newbie to soldering and pulled them off without much pain.




So the LED mod number 3 - I'll do some more looking in to it - but is that a more difficult one to do or one less likely to result in hum elimination?  In the end - given that I'd be going to my tech to do the mod for me because I like the sound of the darkvoice - I guess I'm looking for the one that most retains the sound while providing demonstrable improvement in tube compatibility and hum reduction


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> How you liking them Silvertones?


Pretty great so far.


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> So the LED mod number 3 - I'll do some more looking in to it - but is that a more difficult one to do or one less likely to result in hum elimination?  In the end - given that I'd be going to my tech to do the mod for me because I like the sound of the darkvoice - I guess I'm looking for the one that most retains the sound while providing demonstrable improvement in tube compatibility and hum reduction


Possibly, that’s the one I haven’t tried but it’s modeled after the Bottlehead Crack. If you’re having a tech work on it I’d recommend doing the center tap and heater mods, including twisting the heater wires. See if that takes care of the bulk of the hum. It’s not negatively impactful on the overall sound at all and is just a best practice for amp building based on what much smarter people than me have said here. If that leaves a hum then probably do the LED mod. Which is very simple.


----------



## Paladin79

I do have a proper transformer off of another Chinese amp, otherwise I will be using bonded twisted pair, some zinc oxide, and possibly tinned copper in a french braid, copper tape and the usual stuff I mentioned, dual single ganged pots and circuit changes based on my own designs, a bigger cabinet and most likely my own power supply setup. I have more pressing matters but one day I will show a completed amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I do have a proper transformer off of another Chinese amp, otherwise I will be using bonded twisted pair, some zinc oxide, and possibly tinned copper in a french braid, copper tape and the usual stuff I mentioned, dual single ganged pots and circuit changes based on my own designs, a bigger cabinet and most likely my own power supply setup. I have more pressing matters but one day I will show a completed amp.


Well you know what they say, "important thing is to buy the bell. after that you can build a church around it"😃


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone have an opinion on if the LED mod has the same or similar impact on sound quality to the cathode cap bypass?


----------



## tameral

Yes I'm interested in learning about the efficacy of the LED mod as well to address or eliminate Hum while maintaining original sound quality.

Also, this may be redundant to you all - but why does the stock tube work so well without hum?  Are there premium chinese tubes sold that match the underlying specs and compatibility?  I'm thinking of buying a high quality shaguang or psvane tube for this reason, but of course its a 130-170$ gamble on ebay


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Well you know what they say, "important thing is to buy the bell. after that you can build a church around it"






I am starting to test the tubes I will send you, the black glass mystery tube and the Svetlana winged C are quite good, even in a DV lol  I just lowered my standards on headphones, and used all purple magic cables I built and i do not cringe as much when I listen.  My source is a Schiit Bifrost 2 or 3 or whatever the latest model is, it is not marked on the front so I forget.

Oh and I may well keep the original sockets, that style socket is very easy to adjust if the pins ever get too loose.


----------



## DeweyCH

tameral said:


> Yes I'm interested in learning about the efficacy of the LED mod as well to address or eliminate Hum while maintaining original sound quality.
> 
> Also, this may be redundant to you all - but why does the stock tube work so well without hum?  Are there premium chinese tubes sold that match the underlying specs and compatibility?  I'm thinking of buying a high quality shaguang or psvane tube for this reason, but of course its a 130-170$ gamble on ebay


The stock tube doesn't always work well without the hum. Like most tubes, it's a bit of a roll of the dice with your specific DV. I had good results with a Shuguang Black Treasure CV-181 - can't recall if it needed to be burned in, but it sounded great well before I started modding mine. A single one on Amazon is like $85, which isn't cheap but it's a bit easier a reach than the prices you noted. Just watch the titles, a lot of these are sold as matched pairs but with a pic of a single tube.


----------



## HTSkywalker

My gear keeps on expanding 😊


----------



## tameral

I was looking at the Shaguang Black Treasure CV-181 T for 140$.   Not the CV-181 Z.  Is it worth the 75$ more?  I can get the CV-181 Z for 65$


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Mar 5, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have read comments that RFT built for Telefunken but l have never researched it very much. Folks on here like @Old Deaf Donkey have much more knowledge about such things than I ever will.  I have a feeling he speaks four or five languages and that can help.


Not just for Telefunken, also for Siemens and other brands. Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik (RFT) was a large East German state-owned conglomerate which had many factories, some of them were built by Telefunken before the war (e.g. "Anna Seghers" in Neuhaus). When the production of tubes in Western Europe was shut down many Western brands had the tubes they needed manufactured in East Germany. Telefunken still produced tubes in small series at the Berlin-Moabit plant (West Berlin). This information is readily available if you read German


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> My gear keeps on expanding 😊


Wait...you have a McIntosh amp and you are worried about spending money on a few tubes for the DV?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am starting to test the tubes I will send you, the black glass mystery tube and the Svetlana winged C are quite good, even in a DV lol  I just lowered my standards on headphones, and used all purple magic cables I built and i do not cringe as much when I listen.  My source is a Schiit Bifrost 2 or 3 or whatever the latest model is, it is not marked on the front so I forget.


Both looks sexy and am sure they sound so good. Thanks again, am overwhelmed. After your testing  am very sure any hum would be DV related.
I normally use Audioquest cables for analog RCA connections and Van Den Hul or Wadia for digital cabling. Sommer for speakers.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Not just for Telefunken, also for Siemens and other brands. Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik (RFT) was a large conglo;erate which had many factories, some of them were built by Telefunken before the war (e.g. "Anna Seghers" in Neuhaus). When the production of tubes in Western Europe was shut down many Western had the tubes they needed manufactured in East Germany. Telefunken still produced tubes in small series at the Berlin-Moabit plant (East Berlin). This information is readily available if you read German


I knew you would know lol. I may not know some things but I have a pretty good line on people that do. I usually get with @bcowen if I want details on double walled cardboard.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Both looks sexy and am sure they sound so good. Thanks again, am overwhelmed. After your testing  am very sure any hum would be DV related.
> I normally use Audioquest cables for analog RCA connections and Van Den Hul or Wadia for digital cabling. Sommer for speakers.


Because I am a member of the trade I have to be careful talking about cables other than what I build at home for my own use.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> I am starting to test the tubes I will send you, the black glass mystery tube and the Svetlana winged C are quite good, even in a DV lol  I just lowered my standards on headphones, and used all purple magic cables I built and i do not cringe as much when I listen.  My source is a Schiit Bifrost 2 or 3 or whatever the latest model is, it is not marked on the front so I forget.
> 
> Oh and I may well keep the original sockets, that style socket is very easy to adjust if the pins ever get too loose.



Black glass mystery tube looks like a National Union!  I have one branded by Motorola, not bad.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Wait...you have a McIntosh amp and you are worried about spending money on a few tubes for the DV?


Those were “the days my friend “ all people savings were confiscated in the banks and the economical situation went down the drain. Salaries of $7K is worth $1K now 😡😡


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Modded DarkVoice monstrosity is homeward bound.

Final circuit before closing.




I measured the current draw out of the wall, 0.59A,  a bit higher than calculated, decided to go back to a 1A fuse.

Pre-out tested into my 45 SET, sounds good.



Packed up, will be back to @Galapac middle of next week (tubes not included ).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I knew you would know lol. I may not know some things but I have a pretty good line on people that do. I usually get with @bcowen if I want details on double walled cardboard.


As you should.  At least you're finally coming around to the fact that maple cardboard sounds best.


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> Black glass mystery tube looks like a National Union!  I have one branded by Motorola, not bad.


Good eyes, I am actually testing several black glass to see which to send but NU is among the group. Some do not have the 247 stamped on them, some do.  I was once buying dud tubes from a guy out west to be used in headphone racks, he kept sending me working tubes and I finally said, "you know, I kind of like the black glass type" and he sent me about 20 of those for pennies on the dollar.   

In the mix were an RCA, a couple Tung Sol BG, and several NU's that measured very close to NOS. This style headphone stand.  The internal wiring was a bit tricky.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone have an opinion on if the LED mod has the same or similar impact on sound quality to the cathode cap bypass?


I had LEDs for many months. You also have to install the right ones. I’d say to try it yourself and hear. They say it’s a bit more solid state sounding but I don’t recall to what degree. A problem I have when making comparisons from memory is that I went from the LEDs to 100uf caps, to 220uf caps. The issue here is that 100uf wasn’t enough and my signal lacked low end. I became used to the sound so when I installed 220uf bypass caps, it was a noticeable improvement. I never did compare LED to 220uf.


tameral said:


> Yes I'm interested in learning about the efficacy of the LED mod as well to address or eliminate Hum while maintaining original sound quality.
> 
> Also, this may be redundant to you all - but why does the stock tube work so well without hum?  Are there premium chinese tubes sold that match the underlying specs and compatibility?  I'm thinking of buying a high quality shaguang or psvane tube for this reason, but of course its a 130-170$ gamble on ebay


I didn’t have any tube hum with LEDs.
It’s just a tube that doesn’t hum with the amp. No, there aren’t special Chinese tubes to match special Chinese amps.
I wouldn’t pay that much for those new stock Chinese tubes but I also haven’t heard them. I would *much* rather own NOS for that cost.


tameral said:


> I was looking at the Shaguang Black Treasure CV-181 T for 140$.   Not the CV-181 Z.  Is it worth the 75$ more?  I can get the CV-181 Z for 65$


I haven’t heard them. I would have a very hard time justifying those prices myself.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

bcowen said:


> As you should.  At least you're finally coming around to the fact that maple cardboard sounds best.


Sure thing, and you did get maple on the outside of your extension. You should be able to hear the difference when skin effect kicks in.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Modded DarkVoice monstrosity is homeward bound.
> 
> Final circuit before closing.
> 
> ...


Sweet!  And thanks again for all the great detail and how-to's you've posted on this.  Really appreciated!

One question:  are those 1k carbon-comp grid stopper resistors on the power tube socket as well?  Perhaps I glossed over it earlier...I thought they were just on the 6SN7 socket.

(but fortunately I bought more than 2 )


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  And thanks again for all the great detail and how-to's you've posted on this.  Really appreciated!
> 
> One question:  are those 1k carbon-comp grid stopper resistors on the power tube socket as well?  Perhaps I glossed over it earlier...I thought they were just on the 6SN7 socket.
> 
> (but fortunately I bought more than 2 )



Sharp eye Bill, yes, I added grid stoppers to the output tube.  Are they necessary?  Probably not, but they will roll off any ultra high frequency garbage, just in case.

Again, the new amp is more prone to oscillation since there are now transistors involved, you really shouldn't need them in the stock amplifier.


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> Modded DarkVoice monstrosity is homeward bound.
> 
> Final circuit before closing.
> 
> ...


Nice setup you have especially the large Vinyl collection 😍


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Nice setup you have especially the large Vinyl collection 😍



Thanks!  Everything but the Innuos server is DIY.  Restored vintage Snell J/II speakers 92dB/W (new crossovers, drivers), restored vintage Thorens turntable (rewired for balanced output), D3a-EF86 balanced input MC phono stage I designed with separate chassis power supply, 6N7/6J5 to 45 parafeed SET amplifier with Sowter iron, my design as well...

Yup, I am a tube DIY addict.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Those were “the days my friend “ all people savings were confiscated in the banks and the economical situation went down the drain. Salaries of $7K is worth $1K now 😡😡


Sorry to hear. The banks are the true criminals, yes they are. I keep precious metals, off site, at the bottom of a lake, but that is for a differnet site/thread.


----------



## bcowen

tameral said:


> I was looking at the Shaguang Black Treasure CV-181 T for 140$.   Not the CV-181 Z.  Is it worth the 75$ more?  I can get the CV-181 Z for 65$


I'd look around some.  I bought my CV181-T Mk II as a single a little over a year ago for $70 from an Ebay seller.  Genuine article, and very nice sounding tube.  As this is a current production tube I would expect the price might increase a little, but not almost 2x.  Doesn't hum more than any other tube in my particular Darkvoice (and that was prior to putting in the cathode bypass caps), but YMMV in your particular unit. I haven't heard the CV181-Z so can't offer any sonic comparison between the two.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Those were “the days my friend “ all people savings were confiscated in the banks and the economical situation went down the drain. Salaries of $7K is worth $1K now 😡😡


Sorry to hear that. My daughter in law missed four years of school because of war when living there.

Oh yeah the Marconi tube I am sending was NOT made by GE, it is the Canadian version lol. The only GE you will get is plainly marked GE.


----------



## tameral

I know this is redundant for many of you - but would anyone be willing to chime in about the selections from https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7

For 6sn7 tubes? - l know it is a roll of the dice regardless but what's the most educated gamble on an NOS tube for a fickle darkvoice to resolve hum after a few days of burn in?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sure thing, and you did get maple on the outside of your extension. You should be able to hear the difference when skin effect kicks in.


Well, perhaps you should send me another one made out of rare Brazilian Unobtani-wood (or similar) and I can then do a proper A/B comparison.  Would be difficult to do blind, but I could wear sunglasses or something.


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> Thanks!  Everything but the Innuos server is DIY.  Restored vintage Snell J/II speakers 92dB/W (new crossovers, drivers), restored vintage Thorens turntable (rewired for balanced output), D3a-EF86 balanced input MC phono stage I designed with separate chassis power supply, 6N7/6J5 to 45 parafeed SET amplifier with Sowter iron, my design as well...
> 
> Yup, I am a tube DIY addict.


Very impressive indeed 👍, in fact lots of audio companies started like that.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, perhaps you should send me another one made out of rare Brazilian Unobtani-wood (or similar) and I can then do a proper A/B comparison.  Would be difficult to do blind, but I could wear sunglasses or something.


I will get that right out to you, right after the Cubs win the World Series again.


----------



## therremans (Mar 5, 2021)

tameral said:


> I know this is redundant for many of you - but would anyone be willing to chime in about the selections from https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7
> 
> For 6sn7 tubes? - l know it is a roll of the dice regardless but what's the most educated gamble on an NOS tube for a fickle darkvoice to resolve hum after a few days of burn in?


New or new old stock? Pretty sure it was decided that the Darkvoice design is just a bad one, likely by someone not that educated. Some amps have hum issues worse than others and there is not a brand for a hum free tube with the amp. No one knows what will work on your amp without hum. I’d just mod yours and move on from the hum. Buy tubes from eBay or Etsy.


----------



## HTSkywalker

tameral said:


> I know this is redundant for many of you - but would anyone be willing to chime in about the selections from https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7
> 
> For 6sn7 tubes? - l know it is a roll of the dice regardless but what's the most educated gamble on an NOS tube for a fickle darkvoice to resolve hum after a few days of burn in?


They carry a delicious BBQ sauce, just kidding but I was in your same place when I got the BBQ sauce recommendation from Tube Depot.


----------



## HTSkywalker

tameral said:


> I know this is redundant for many of you - but would anyone be willing to chime in about the selections from https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7
> 
> For 6sn7 tubes? - l know it is a roll of the dice regardless but what's the most educated gamble on an NOS tube for a fickle darkvoice to resolve hum after a few days of burn in?


You can also get it directly from
https://lowtechelec.com/
Jeff the owner is extremely helpful and comes highly recommended by paladin79 😊


----------



## tameral

therremans said:


> New or new old stock? Pretty sure it was decided that the Darkvoice design is just a bad one, likely by someone not that educated. Some amps have hum issues worse than others and there is not a brand for a hum free tube with the amp. No one knows what will work on your amp without hum. I’d just mod yours and move on from the hum. Buy tubes from eBay or Etsy.



I hear ya.  I bought this darkvoice a month ago and have sunk some money into it (e30 Dac, Passive Preamp to get more range in volume knob, and 100$ in tubes already) and I haven't listened to it for more than 20 minutes.  If I can find a tube that doesn't hum that'll be great.  I'm afraid this thing is an example of more than I bargained for hehe.  I just thought any tube was good after a few days burn in.  I didn't belong to head-fi until very recently.  I'm not sure I really like the idea of a lottery of 150$ vintage tubes.  I think I'd go with a mod but its not clear which mod is the right mod to me yet.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> They carry a delicious BBQ sauce, just kidding but I was in your same place when I got the BBQ sauce recommendation from Tube Depot.


So far I have had a CBS and a Foton hum badly in the DV, crystal clear in a quality amp. The bad news is the GE did not hum so I am sending it along.   I have plenty of Fotons so I will try to find one that reacts better. Oh and add a Melz to those two, so far 30% of tubes tried hum loudly in the DV, they are fine in an Incubus and it tends to show the slightest flaw in a tube. Those folks without a backup amp would surely think they were bad tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Possibly, that’s the one I haven’t tried but it’s modeled after the Bottlehead Crack. If you’re having a tech work on it I’d recommend doing the center tap and heater mods, including twisting the heater wires. See if that takes care of the bulk of the hum. It’s not negatively impactful on the overall sound at all and is just a best practice for amp building based on what much smarter people than me have said here. If that leaves a hum then probably do the LED mod. Which is very simple.


Quick question... If we hit this center tap heater mod with the twisty nibbles thing...Fitz Mod remains or remove it? 🤔


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> You can also get it directly from
> https://lowtechelec.com/
> Jeff the owner is extremely helpful and comes highly recommended by paladin79 😊


Thus far I have had great experiences in my purchases there but his selection is not near what you will find on EBAY but unless you know a seller there, it can be a crap shoot at times.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Well you know what they say, "important thing is to buy the bell. after that you can build a church around it"😃


Lol.. repaint the house to match the furniture kind of thing... 😂


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> So far I have had a CBS and a Foton hum badly in the DV, crystal clear in a quality amp. The bad news is the GE did not hum so I am sending it along.   I have plenty of Fotons so I will try to find one that reacts better.


GE+DV made for each other? Perhaps... Call it G.D.E.V. - Fill in your own words as I will keep it PG...


----------



## therremans

tameral said:


> I hear ya.  I bought this darkvoice a month ago and have sunk some money into it (e30 Dac, Passive Preamp to get more range in volume knob, and 100$ in tubes already) and I haven't listened to it for more than 20 minutes.  If I can find a tube that doesn't hum that'll be great.  I'm afraid this thing is an example of more than I bargained for hehe.  I just thought any tube was good after a few days burn in.  I didn't belong to head-fi until very recently.  I'm not sure I really like the idea of a lottery of 150$ vintage tubes.  I think I'd go with a mod but its not clear which mod is the right mod to me yet.


I would just do the fitz mod or the LEDs if you’re new to this or have reservations. It will fix the hum.

LEDs - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/630-HLMP-6000/

Caps - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/647-UKZ1E221MHM/

You can then do more mods to improve the sound if you want.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Quick question... If we hit this center tap heater mod with the twisty nibbles thing...Fitz Mod remains or remove it? 🤔


I removed the Fitz mod when I did the center tap twisty nibble heaterdoodle, but had to reinstall it because I was getting hum again. Honestly I'm just following along with what the smrt folks here do and trying to copy them to the best of my abilities, but that's where I ended up.


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh, and I know this isn't the Crack thread, but y'all have been super helpful with my learning process on amps and soldering and those little bendy things that go between the other things inside of an amp, so here's my just-completed stock Crack (gonna double check everything before I put it in the case and try it out):





Those little LEDs on the 9-pin socket are a pain in the ass to finagle.


----------



## therremans (Mar 5, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I removed the Fitz mod when I did the center tap twisty nibble heaterdoodle, but had to reinstall it because I was getting hum again. Honestly I'm just following along with what the smrt folks here do and trying to copy them to the best of my abilities, but that's where I ended up.


I’m curious what do your heaters test at..before and after the drop? Which resistors did you end up with for the voltage drop?


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and I know this isn't the Crack thread, but y'all have been super helpful with my learning process on amps and soldering and those little bendy things that go between the other things inside of an amp, so here's my just-completed stock Crack (gonna double check everything before I put it in the case and try it out):
> 
> 
> 
> Those little LEDs on the 9-pin socket are a pain in the ass to finagle.


You're not supposed to smoke crack when building it... just a joke, no seriousness implied.
Actually @DeweyCH your soldering looks a lot better lately.
From one inexperienced bloke to another, the lines leading to the RCA jacks look like they could have been braided tighter but not sure if that affects anything.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and I know this isn't the Crack thread, but y'all have been super helpful with my learning process on amps and soldering and those little bendy things that go between the other things inside of an amp, so here's my just-completed stock Crack (gonna double check everything before I put it in the case and try it out):
> 
> 
> 
> Those little LEDs on the 9-pin socket are a pain in the ass to finagle.


I mean this in the nicest possible way but I would tighten the three wire braid between volume pot and RCA in. LOL Galapac was saying that as I said it.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I’m curious what do your heaters test at..before and after the drop? Which resistors did you end up with for the voltage drop?


Didn't do the voltage drop, I followed @L0rdGwyn 's walkthrough of the simplified version. Center tap + voltage split (I think that's the term?) + braided heater wires.


----------



## tameral

HTSkywalker said:


> They carry a delicious BBQ sauce, just kidding but I was in your same place when I got the BBQ sauce recommendation from Tube Depot.


Only Kansas City barbecue sauce for me.  Specifically Arthur Bryant's


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I mean this in the nicest possible way but I would tighten the three wire braid between volume pot and RCA in. LOL Galapac was saying that as I said it.


How you gonna say "I mean this in the nicest possible way" and then say something that couldn't be misconstrued as being mean or rude in any way, shape or form? Thanks, too, I'll do that... kinda want to shorten them too. Bottlehead's instructions seem to leave me with a little too much wire length.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and I know this isn't the Crack thread, but y'all have been super helpful with my learning process on amps and soldering and those little bendy things that go between the other things inside of an amp, so here's my just-completed stock Crack (gonna double check everything before I put it in the case and try it out):
> 
> 
> 
> Those little LEDs on the 9-pin socket are a pain in the ass to finagle.


Soldering is like waaaaaay better!  Nice job!  If you keep up at this rate, in a few months you may be giving @Paladin79 some lessons.   

May be the photo angle, but did this connection not see any love from the soldering iron?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Soldering is like waaaaaay better!  Nice job!  If you keep up at this rate, in a few months you may be giving @Paladin79 some lessons.
> 
> May be the photo angle, but did this connection not see any love from the soldering iron?


It did, yeah. Just the angle. I should clip that lead. Maybe add a touch more solder, we'll see. And thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> It did, yeah. Just the angle. I should clip that lead. Maybe add a touch more solder, we'll see. And thanks!


Be sure you fill the entire lug of course. There is a very good tutorial when building those amps.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

I went through most every Foton I have and finally found a 52 that did not hum, well there is slight background hum but I am talking serious noise with some vary nice Fotons in the DV. I had to try several Melz as well, but came across a 53 that works lol.  Oops, I will not be sending a Foton, I could not intentionally send out a tube that cannot be used in the amp, I will search for other brands.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Soldering is like waaaaaay better!  Nice job!  If you keep up at this rate, in a few months you may be giving @Paladin79 some lessons.
> 
> May be the photo angle, but did this connection not see any love from the soldering iron?





DeweyCH said:


> How you gonna say "I mean this in the nicest possible way" and then say something that couldn't be misconstrued as being mean or rude in any way, shape or form? Thanks, too, I'll do that... kinda want to shorten them too. Bottlehead's instructions seem to leave me with a little too much wire length.


The tighter the braid, the more it will shorten.


----------



## DeweyCH

Better I hope


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I went through most every Foton I have and finally found a 52 that did not hum, well there is slight background hum but I am talking serious noise with some vary nice Fotons in the DV. I had to try several Melz as well, but came across a 53 that works lol.  Oops, I will not be sending a Foton, I could not intentionally send out a tube that cannot be used in the amp, I will search for other brands.


I tried 3 different ('50's) Fotons in my DV when I first got it.  Although I had only a very low level hum with other 6SN7's, all three of those Fotons had an obnoxiously loud hum (and all three were perfectly quiet in the Incubus and the Lyr 3).  Putting the cathode bypass caps in there fixed it, but without that they would have been unusable.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I tried 3 different ('50's) Fotons in my DV when I first got it.  Although I had only a very low level hum with other 6SN7's, all three of those Fotons had an obnoxiously loud hum (and all three were perfectly quiet in the Incubus and the Lyr 3).  Putting the cathode bypass caps in there fixed it, but without that they would have been unusable.


Yep, I will go about fixing that in my amp if I ever get done building Incubi. It hates Fotons and some of my prized Melz, some of the older round mica Melz are not any worse than other tubes so I will send one of those along.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'd look around some.  I bought my CV181-T Mk II as a single a little over a year ago for $70 from an Ebay seller.  Genuine article, and very nice sounding tube.  As this is a current production tube I would expect the price might increase a little, but not almost 2x.  Doesn't hum more than any other tube in my particular Darkvoice (and that was prior to putting in the cathode bypass caps), but YMMV in your particular unit. I haven't heard the CV181-Z so can't offer any sonic comparison between the two.


I believe the Psvane diverted from the Shaguang company but still the tubes architecture and voice are very much identical.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> So far I have had a CBS and a Foton hum badly in the DV, crystal clear in a quality amp. The bad news is the GE did not hum so I am sending it along.   I have plenty of Fotons so I will try to find one that reacts better. Oh and add a Melz to those two, so far 30% of tubes tried hum loudly in the DV, they are fine in an Incubus and it tends to show the slightest flaw in a tube. Those folks without a backup amp would surely think they were bad tubes.


Any chance the hum is due to the used cans impedance ? anyway as long as your tests show humming with the DV, better stay clear. I trust your testing and I feel that this package will get me more familiar with most tubes brands and would throttle me in the right direction 🙂🙂
YOU ROCK


----------



## qingcai

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe the Psvane diverted from the Shaguang company but still the tubes architecture and voice are very much identical.


I am getting some psvane.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Lol.. repaint the house to match the furniture kind of thing


In our case re-position the furniture as per the speakers best tonal performance 🤩


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Any chance the hum is due to the used cans impedance ? anyway as long as your tests show humming with the DV, better stay clear. I trust your testing and I feel that this package will get me more familiar with most tubes brands and would throttle me in the right direction 🙂🙂
> YOU ROCK


I can certainly try other impedance headphones, but I doubt that effects it.

I just tried 32,50,80, and 300 Senns, no change.

I thought I read a long time ago that DV knew about the hum problem and had addressed it. Some of the boards in my unit are marked 2008 or some such, it makes me wonder if maybe they are selling older product that has more issues?  I am strictly speculating but if some of you had been using say Melz 1578's and Fotons I would think. Anyone with older amps that do all right with those tubes???


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Thus far I have had great experiences in my purchases there but his selection is not near what you will find on EBAY but unless you know a seller there, it can be a crap shoot at times.


True as Jeff gives it a personal touch and test the tube before sending, but he should carry all OTL amps models in order to check for our own amp compatibility 😃
exactly how Paladin is Pampering me 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

qingcai said:


> I am getting some psvane.


Probably they would take some time to arrive from main land China


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I can certainly try other impedance headphones, but I doubt that effects it.
> 
> I just tried 32,50,80, and 300 Senns, no change.


So it's the DV technical architecture incompatibility with those tubes


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So it's the DV technical architecture incompatibility with those tubes


I certainly have no issues in other amps with those tubes lol, I tried three different brands.


----------



## therremans (Mar 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> So it's the DV technical architecture incompatibility with those tubes


or variances in tubes and a poorly designed amp.


L0rdGwyn said:


> The sad fact of the matter is the guy who designed this doesn't know what he's doing, I've avoided putting out there bluntly until now but that is the truth.  If you don't know how to properly ground reference a heater supply or properly rate a mains fuse (which is a safety hazard, by the way), you shouldn't be selling literally thousands of tube amplifiers.  And it has nothing to do with price, these could have been designed properly without the hum issues for little-to-no additional cost.  I know that is not nice to say, but reading the Drop comments and everyone talking about their defective tubes due to hum is somewhat infuriating.





L0rdGwyn said:


> This thread needs some sort of sticky, or the DarkVoice an included disclaimer sticker.
> 
> Straight to the point, the DarkVoice has some design flaws.  The heaters are not appropriately wired in the stock amp, which contributes to the hum.  It can be improved or eliminated with modifications.  Otherwise, you have to try different tubes to find 6SN7 that have low heater-to-cathode leakage and will not hum.


----------



## Galapac

qingcai said:


> I am getting some psvane.


Do you have a preference Psvane or Shuguang?


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> or variances in tubes and a poorly designed amp.


It's definitely a crapshoot.  🎲🎲


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I can certainly try other impedance headphones, but I doubt that effects it.
> 
> I just tried 32,50,80, and 300 Senns, no change.
> 
> I thought I read a long time ago that DV knew about the hum problem and had addressed it. Some of the boards in my unit are marked 2008 or some such, it makes me wonder if maybe they are selling older product that has more issues?  I am strictly speculating but if some of you had been using say Melz 1578's and Fotons I would think. Anyone with older amps that do all right with those tubes???


Digging through my grey matter - a quick excavation - I believe you're thinking about the Dark Voice 1st. gen. IIRC, it was worse for noise and also had potentially terminal power supply issues. "Fixing" that is what gave us the SE. (I think its even possible to Frankenstein a dead mk1 into the SE, possibly an ever cheaper route for the moddening crowd) 
In true Chi-Fi fashion, we should see a model with the current issues solved, and the "Pro" moniker tacked on. Off course because it's "pro" it'll sell for twice as much


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Digging through my grey matter - a quick excavation - I believe you're thinking about the Dark Voice 1st. gen. IIRC, it was worse for noise and also had potentially terminal power supply issues. "Fixing" that is what gave us the SE. (I think its even possible to Frankenstein a dead mk1 into the SE, possibly an ever cheaper route for the moddening crowd)
> In true Chi-Fi fashion, we should see a model with the current issues solved, and the "Pro" moniker tacked on. Off course because it's "pro" it'll sell for twice as much


I am sure you are right, I know little of the history and have only glanced at a schematic and built Bill his extension. It is all about him you know.   
I did work on one a long time ago and once I got it going I was shocked at how bad it sounded but my friend assured me that was normal lol. Even in that short of time I recall redoing the filament wires and those to the 1/4 inch jack and helping it some.  The odd thing I know I have got owners of the DV into Melz as I am sure Bill has done with Fotons. Some of those guys should have been screaming about the sound coming out of those tubes lol.


----------



## therremans

My 53’ Foton sounds great. I don’t own a Melz.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

therremans said:


> My 53’ Foton sounds great. I don’t own a Melz.


Before modifications or after lol?  I check with no signal on a virgin amp and OMG it is bad lol, I know Bill had the same results and he is the King of Foton hoarding.

If yours is stock and sounded good with that tube, I would hang into it for the Smithsonian.  

I just own 52's, 53's, 54's, 57's and 59's  and a couple 65's I don't like to talk about. I plugged them all in today just trying to find a good sample. I believe skywalker will be running his unsullied for a while so I did not change mine any for the tests.

Too bad I did not have you on the list when I loaned out a 58 Melz, few wanted to give it back to me lol. In prelims for my 6sn7 equivalent challenge, it scored higher than tubes costing much more. The ceiling is around $2,000 for one tube and a couple with no price tags.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Before modifications or after lol?  I check with no signal on a virgin amp and OMG it is bad lol, I know Bill had the same results and he is the King of Foton hoarding.
> 
> If yours is stock and sounded good with that tube, I would hang into it for the Smithsonian.
> 
> ...


Oh sorry, yes after mods. It would be nice to compare my amp to a stock one at this point. I’m looking forward to the new changes. I would love to participate in a blind tube challenge. I would only hope to beat Bill but he has _many_ years on me.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Oh sorry, yes after mods. It would be nice to compare my amp to a stock one at this point. I’m looking forward to the new changes. I would love to participate in a blind tube challenge. I would only hope to beat Bill but he has _many_ years on me.


I have been doing this a long time and while I joke with Bill, his abilities with tubes are pretty amazing. Trust me, I have had plenty of people say I can hear this or I can hear that, to which I respond, "great, show me!"  Bill and one local lady who is vision impaired are the only two who have truly impressed me in over 40 years in the industry. That young lady picked the results of a DAC challenge perfectly and we had 50 people whose scores we averaged. I can swap around four types of wire at a time and while she does not know such things as OCC or Litz, she can pick the same wire out of a choice of 16 types with a very high certainty. All wire is concealed, only lengths and gauges (as much as they can be) are the same.

Now what I set up for Bill as a challenge I may well be able to do for you one day but it is super time consuming on my end. I went as far as to use sealing wax in places and embossed it with an intaglio signet ring so long before any hot glue melted you would have had wax everywhere. Bill made a bet he could pick a GE tube from the eight. I rarely refuse a challenge if I have the time to figure out a process.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh sorry, yes after mods. It would be nice to compare my amp to a stock one at this point. I’m looking forward to the new changes. I would love to participate in a blind tube challenge. I would only hope to beat Bill but he has _many_ years *of experience* on me.



^^^^^^^
Here, fixed this for you (just to reduce possibility of incorrect inferences).


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I have been doing this a long time and while I joke with Bill, his abilities with tubes are pretty amazing. Trust me, I have had plenty of people say I can hear this or I can hear that, to which I respond, "great, show me!"  Bill and one local lady who is vision impaired are the only two who have truly impressed me in over 40 years in the industry. That young lady picked the results of a DAC challenge perfectly and we had 50 people whose scores we averaged. I can swap around four types of wire at a time and while she does not know such things as OCC or Litz, she can pick the same wire out of a choice of 16 types with a very high certainty. All wire is concealed, only lengths and gauges (as much as they can be) are the same.
> 
> Now what I set up for Bill as a challenge I may well be able to do for you one day but it is super time consuming on my end. I went as far as to use sealing wax in places and embossed it with an intaglio signet ring so long before any hot glue melted you would have had wax everywhere. Bill made a bet he could pick a GE tube from the eight. I rarely refuse a challenge if I have the time to figure out a process.


I dont want to get into a cable discussion as I know you don't either but it is impressive that the vision impaired woman could pick out differences in cables. There is something to be said of people who can hear sonic differences in cables because some would have you believe that it is impossible, snake oil, or just pure fairy dust. You saw it proven otherwise. I love a good handmade cable but more for quality as I myself would probably have a hard time in a blind test even though I "think" I can hear an improvement in my audio.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ^^^^^^^
> Here, fixed this for you (just to reduce possibility of incorrect inferences).


Just because Bill has navel lint older than you does not mean you need to point it out you know.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just because Bill has navel lint older than you does not mean you need to point it out you know.


I do* not*.  I washed all that out _last_ month.  I think.  I'll go check, and post a photo for everyone as soon as I'm done.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I dont want to get into a cable discussion as I know you don't either but it is impressive that the vision impaired woman could pick out differences in cables. There is something to be said of people who can hear sonic differences in cables because some would have you believe that it is impossible, snake oil, or just pure fairy dust. You saw it proven otherwise. I love a good handmade cable but more for quality as I myself would probably have a hard time in a blind test even though I "think" I can hear an improvement in my audio.


Tubes really vary with the amp, I designed the Incubus and donated four of them for the challenge. It is meant to show off 6sn7's and hopefully I accomplished that.  Bill used a Lyr 3 in our challenge, in a Lyr 3 I am lucky to tell a GE from a Sylvania Bad Boy on a given day lol.  One can never argue what someone believes they hear, best just to nod and walk away.

Oh and I can talk in generalities about making my own cables or DIY or wire types and such. When I joined I got asked very specific questions if a company I worked for sold any kind of electronic product and registered as I was asked. My company does not sell amplifiers, they are a hobby for me.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 5, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I do* not*.  I washed all that out _last_ month.  I think.  I'll go check, and post a photo for everyone as soon as I'm done.


Darn I may miss that, I hear Finnegan crying somewhere and I may not be back for hours, or days. I have listened to different degrees of hum in a DV all day and now this.


----------



## DeweyCH

Siblings? Competitors? Frenemies? Kissing cousins?






Oh, and with the Fitz mod back on, those Visseaux tubes lost all hum and sound pretty magical.

Incidentally, can someone give me a quickie bit of instruction on measuring my heater voltage and calculating the appropriate resistor to get it dialed in?


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 5, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Siblings? Competitors? Frenemies? Kissing cousins?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Or ask one of your buddys to calculate it for ya...   I want to do this just to have a "proper" setup but everything sounding good "as is" at the moment.. aww what the heck..


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I dont want to get into a cable discussion as I know you don't either but it is impressive that the vision impaired woman could pick out differences in cables. There is something to be said of people who can hear sonic differences in cables because some would have you believe that it is impossible, snake oil, or just pure fairy dust. You saw it proven otherwise. I love a good handmade cable but more for quality as I myself would probably have a hard time in a blind test even though I "think" I can hear an improvement in my audio.


I believe every single small component in a music chain makes a certain difference, from capacitors, to Toroidal transformers, internal cabling and routing, even DAC chips varies depending on the internal architecture around them all the way to external RCAs or balanced ones, cable path and noisy electrical surrounding (as external cables work as noise antennas) all the way to amp connectors, internal potentiometers (ALPS Blue Velvet which I love), cans cables, speaker cables, speakers and finally cans......all the way to our ears which may be missing lots of the frequency that differentiate a good system from a better or worse one especially if you are an IEM user. 😁
IMHO working and experimenting throughout this chain makes the best part of our hobby and not only the listening part 😎😎😎 and now with my "tube" rabbit hole latest venture I feel like the RC scratch builders (which I am)  and not the ready RTF owners. 😃
Same as I enjoy building a plane for long nights at my workshop and tweaking it knowing that its total flight time may not exceeds its build time but again it's a hobby 🤩🤩


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe every single small component in a music chain makes a certain difference, from capacitors, to Toroidal transformers, internal cabling and routing, even DAC chips varies depending on the internal architecture around them all the way to external RCAs or balanced ones, cable path and noisy electrical surrounding (as external cables work as noise antennas) all the way to amp connectors, internal potentiometers (ALPS Blue Velvet which I love), cans cables, speaker cables, speakers and finally cans......all the way to our ears which may be missing lots of the frequency that differentiate a good system from a better or worse one especially if you are an IEM user. 😁
> IMHO working and experimenting throughout this chain makes the best part of our hobby and not only the listening part 😎😎😎 and now with my "tube" rabbit hole latest venture I feel like the RC scratch builders (which I am)  and not the ready RTF owners. 😃
> Same as I enjoy building a plane for long nights at my workshop and tweaking it knowing that its total flight time may not exceeds its build time but again it's a hobby 🤩🤩


DAC’s are interesting because often they depend on the input and output circuitry. Anyone can buy a Sigma Delta chip, it becomes what you can do with it.


----------



## qingcai

Galapac said:


> Do you have a preference Psvane or Shuguang?


not really, I just read a line from some post mentioned psvane have good sound. then I placed order to see.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Siblings? Competitors? Frenemies? Kissing cousins?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jedi posted the calculation method. You'll need to measure the AC voltage between pins 7 and 8 to see what you have. If yours is like everyone else's, you'll probably get around 7 volts.


----------



## HTSkywalker

qingcai said:


> not really, I just read a line from some post mentioned psvane have good sound. then I placed order to see.


Let us know your impressions once you try it. Would it be replacing the stock tube ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

Busy day for me, I need to clean and box tubes, bid on some on Ebay for a friend, and start work on a black walnut amp. My wife is also anxious for me to figure out all the electrical for her new workshop so i will be wearing that hat as well.

Oh and Bill's DV extension appears to be out for delivery, so hopefully all goes well and it is not damaged.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Jedi posted the calculation method. You'll need to measure the AC voltage between pins 7 and 8 to see what you have. If yours is like everyone else's, you'll probably get around 7 volts.


I was fortunate when I designed my amp to have been able to run my ideas past a gentleman who worked in design on 6sn7's and 6as7g's, my ideas were a little radical and I was pushing some parameters but I was able to get his blessing before he passed away. His grandson owns some tubes that are one of a kind prototypes that will be in our tube challenge. Those will stay in the family as well they should. I had the good fortune to hear them in one of my amps but I was extremely nervous about handling them, and I certainly barred Finnegan from entering the room.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Busy day for me, I need to clean and box tubes, bid on some on Ebay for a friend, and start work on a black walnut amp. My wife is also anxious for me to figure out all the electrical for her new workshop so i will be wearing that hat as well.
> 
> Oh and Bill's DV extension appears to be out for delivery, so hopefully all goes well and it is not damaged.


lots of hats to wear for you 🤠🤠🤠enjoy your weekend 🥂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> lots of hats to wear for you 🤠🤠🤠enjoy your weekend 🥂


I just cleaned and brushed all tubes I am sending to you so now I am waiting for the pins to dry. I am using tiny squares of foam in each tube box to try to protect them on their long journey. My wife is doing pottery so I cannot do much woodworking now, I have an audio/video system in the shop so it is never much like work for me.  Even wiring this shed should be fun, and it will make my wife happy and free up some of my shop.   


 .


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just cleaned and brushed all tubes I am sending to you so now I am waiting for the pins to dry. I am using tiny squares of foam in each tube box to try to protect them on their long journey. My wife is doing pottery so I cannot do much woodworking now, I have an audio/video system in the shop so it is never much like work for me.  Even wiring this shed should be fun, and it will make my wife happy and free up some of my shop.
> 
> 
> .


Does the shed have a bar?  I think you should focus on that first.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Busy day for me, I need to clean and box tubes, bid on some on Ebay for a friend, and start work on a black walnut amp. My wife is also anxious for me to figure out all the electrical for her new workshop so i will be wearing that hat as well.



Or you could just wear one really big one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and Bill's DV extension appears to be out for delivery, so hopefully all goes well and it is not damaged.


It escaped the USPS Mid-Carolina black hole distribution center!!!  Too many things enter that place never to leave again.  Breathing big sigh of relief!


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Does the shed have a bar?  I think you should focus on that first.


We will see lol. I was hoping to keep the cost under $25k.

What are you doing here?

You should be standing by a window watching for the postman or woman and tapping your foot.


----------



## Ripper2860

Postperson.  The correct term is postperson.  (In case Bill's mail carrier is gender fluid, etc.)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Does the shed have a bar?  I think you should focus on that first.


i keep a bottle of scotch and few bags of nuts in my workshop along with an old TEAC amp (probably more than 20 years old) to link my phone to 😃


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You should be standing by a window watching for the postman or woman and tapping your foot.



Huh?  That would require physical effort.  I'll get a text when it's delivered and send my son out to the mailbox to get it.   Now I just need a little more encouragement work on the wife to get her to sand it for me.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> We will see lol. I was hoping to keep the cost under $25k.
> 
> What are you doing here?
> 
> You should be standing by a window watching for the postman or woman and tapping your foot.


my postman is due on Tuesday 9


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> i keep a bottle of scotch and few bags of nuts in my workshop along with an old TEAC amp (probably more than 20 years old) to link my phone to 😃


LOL I have to be a little careful since I use power tools in woodworking, the tip of my right thumb is nearly healed now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL I have to be a little careful since I use power tools in woodworking, the tip of my right thumb is nearly healed now.


i still have a dull feeling at the tip of my thumb 4 years now being hit by a propeller😥 and had a hard time explaining to the emergency Doc what hit me 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> i still have a dull feeling at the tip of my thumb 4 years now being hit by a propeller😥 and had a hard time explaining to the emergency Doc what hit me 😁😁


I am also a fan of scotch, one of my favorites is 21 year old Balvenie port cask. Back to work for me.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> i still have a dull feeling at the tip of my thumb 4 years now being hit by a propeller😥 and had a hard time explaining to the emergency Doc what hit me 😁😁



LOL!  Just like electronics...probably best to turn it off before working on it?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Postperson.  The correct term is postperson.  (In case Bill's mail carrier is gender fluid, etc.)


We call them male mail carriers here.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 6, 2021)

That'll work.  I've notified HF admin that you no longer need to attend their online sensitivity course.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am also a fan of scotch, one of my favorites is 21 year old Balvenie port cask. Back to work for me.


love all the Balvenie line but my favorite is the Macallan 18 but i mostly settle for the 12. if you are a fan you should also try Old Pulteney, Dalmore, Bunnahabhain (18years) or Tobermory.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> We call them male mail carriers here.


I call him George here coz he is the one who delivers to my area and it's his real name lol 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That'll work.  I've notified HF admin that you no longer need to attend their online sensitivity course.


Thanks!  But who will you have to talk to now while you're in class?


----------



## Ripper2860

I actually teach the course as well as thread the projector.  🙄


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> love all the Balvenie line but my favorite is the Macallan 18 but i mostly settle for the 12. if you are a fan you should also try Old Pulteney, Dalmore, Bunnahabhain (18years) or Tobermory.


My son hosts scotch tastings and has all of his arranged by regions of Scotland, when I first visited his house I saw what he had in his bar and left a couple bottles of 12 year old in my car. He held a friend from Japan hostage till they finished his entire downstairs, but first they redid the bar lol. Its a wonder any work got done after that.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I call him George here coz he is the one who delivers to my area and it's his real name lol 🤣🤣🤣


I have plenty of room in the box so I will look around more later for other tubes but I have a decent start. Most are from the fifties and sixties.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My son hosts scotch tastings and has all of his arranged by regions of Scotland, when I first visited his house I saw what he had in his bar and left a couple bottles of 12 year old in my car. He held a friend from Japan hostage till they finished his entire downstairs, but first they redid the bar lol. Its a wonder any work got done after that.


lol thought the hostilities with Japan stopped long time ago 😂😂😂 but putting a POW to some good bar remodeling work and tasting after that is a very friendly act


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have plenty of room in the box so I will look around more later for other tubes but I have a decent start. Most are from the fifties and sixties.
> ��


A very decent collection indeed, no rush you can fill it all you want lol 😍😍😍😍. I will need to call George to be ready for delivery 24/7 😁😁😁and he's on for a generous tip


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> lol thought the hostilities with Japan stopped long time ago 😂😂😂 but putting a POW to some good bar remodeling work and tasting after that is a very friendly act


LOL funny. This gentleman is from Indiana but has lived all over the world, "hostage" was his word for staying to help my son finish all the work. They tiled everything including the stairs over a two year period. He owed my son a favor.

Do you have any plans of using 6j5 tubes, single triode tubes that with adapter take place of 6sn7's. I am sure I could include some of those and donate an adapter if you like. These are a different version but this is what they look like with adapter. 6sn7s use shielding to keep down crosstalk, you might like the separation in a set of these.  They barely fit my personal Incubus but the DV is another matter, I will see how some of them do in the DV after lunch.

You have perhaps heard of Sylvania Bad Boy tubes, three hole black plate. These are 6j5's I dubbed Naughty Girls much to the chagrin of @bcowen . They sound as good as most anything I can get to work in the DV without getting into tubes over $100, you shall have a set, just remember you need to use them as a pair with the adapter.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL funny. This gentleman is from Indiana but has lived all over the world, "hostage" was his word for staying to help my son finish all the work. They tiled everything including the stairs over a two year period. He owed my son a favor.
> 
> Do you have any plans of using 6j5 tubes, single triode tubes that with adapter take place of 6sn7's. I am sure I could include some of those and donate an adapter if you like. These are a different version but this is what they look like with adapter. 6sn7s use shielding to keep down crosstalk, you might like the separation in a set of these.  They barely fit my personal Incubus but the DV is another matter, I will see how some of them do in the DV after lunch.


The channel separation is tempting enough for me as it would also increase the soundstage and it also looks cool but only if you think it gives a nice result with the DV and that you can let go few with an adapter.  Thanks


----------



## bcowen

It's here, and it's so....so....so.....beautiful!   You totally nailed the dimensions...absolutely perfect.  Almost like you had a Darkvoice there to work from.   And the front and back insets couldn't be better...just enough space on the sides for the VHB tape to fill in nicely.  About all it needs is a little finish sanding and it'll be ready for some Tung Oil.  Thanks Tom!  This is beyond excellent!

(oh, and you have really good taste in wood )


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's here, and it's so....so....so.....beautiful!   You totally nailed the dimensions...absolutely perfect.  Almost like you had a Darkvoice there to work from.  And the front and back insets couldn't be better...just enough space on the sides for the VHB tape to fill in nicely.  About all it needs is a little finish sanding and it'll be ready for some Tung Oil.  Thanks Tom!  This is beyond excellent!
> 
> (oh, and you have really good taste in wood)


I am so glad you like it, I really tried to get it right. 
My day is going great, I have lots of tubes for @HTSkywalker 
I just snagged some WE 421A's for a very good price
and your extension arrived undamaged.  Once again the world is spinning in greased grooves. (Steinbeck)


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I am so glad you like it, I really tried to get it right.
> My day is going great, I have lots of tubes for @HTSkywalker
> I just snagged some WE 421A's for a very good price
> and your extension arrived undamaged.  Once again the world is spinning in greased grooves. (Steinbeck)


Was it this pair?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

Yes, I was bidding for a guy from England and got them for much less than he was willing to pay, I am just a go between.   He was very happy, the seller said I got them for less than 5998 matched pair pricing. I hope you were not bidding as well but if it is any consolation, it would have cost you double what I paid, to own them.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It's here, and it's so....so....so.....beautiful!   You totally nailed the dimensions...absolutely perfect.  Almost like you had a Darkvoice there to work from.  And the front and back insets couldn't be better...just enough space on the sides for the VHB tape to fill in nicely.  About all it needs is a little finish sanding and it'll be ready for some Tung Oil.  Thanks Tom!  This is beyond excellent!
> 
> (oh, and you have really good taste in wood)


This is professional craftsmanship 👏👏


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL funny. This gentleman is from Indiana but has lived all over the world, "hostage" was his word for staying to help my son finish all the work. They tiled everything including the stairs over a two year period. He owed my son a favor.
> 
> Do you have any plans of using 6j5 tubes, single triode tubes that with adapter take place of 6sn7's. I am sure I could include some of those and donate an adapter if you like. These are a different version but this is what they look like with adapter. 6sn7s use shielding to keep down crosstalk, you might like the separation in a set of these.  They barely fit my personal Incubus but the DV is another matter, I will see how some of them do in the DV after lunch.
> 
> You have perhaps heard of Sylvania Bad Boy tubes, three hole black plate. These are 6j5's I dubbed Naughty Girls much to the chagrin of @bcowen . They sound as good as most anything I can get to work in the DV without getting into tubes over $100, you shall have a set, just remember you need to use them as a pair with the adapter.


Great, if you can please just mark the tubes which are to be used in pair using the adapter 🙏


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Great, if you can please just mark the tubes which are to be used in pair using the adapter 🙏


I have done so, there are two RCA's in original boxes marked 6J5 and rubber banded together along with Sylvania 6J5 which I marked as being a pair. The adapter is also marked 6j5 + 6J5 to 6sn7.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have done so, there are two RCA's in original boxes marked 6J5 and rubber banded together along with Sylvania 6J5 which I marked as being a pair.


Thanks that’ll do it 👍
The included adapter shall work for either pair i believe


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks that’ll do it 👍
> The included adapter shall work for either pair i believe


Yep, I also tried a Russian pair but once again, too much hum.  Any set of 6J5's will work as a pair and the ones I have are pretty tightly matched. You can always ask questions later if you have them. 6J5's only have five pins in an octal pattern so they are not too hard to pick out.

On to amp building. This piece of wood and a bit of knowledge is all I need.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, I also tried a Russian pair but once again, too much hum.  Any set of 6J5's will work as a pair and the ones I have are pretty tightly matched. You can always ask questions later if you have them. 6J5's only have five pins in an octal pattern so they are not too hard to pick out.
> 
> On to amp building. This piece of wood and a bit of knowledge is all I need.


Nice wood grain, definitely neatly hand picked👍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Nice wood grain, definitely neatly hand picked👍



Except maple sounds better.  LOL!!

A little Tung oil, and the Tiger popped right out of _this_ maple.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Once again the world is spinning in greased grooves. (Steinbeck)


Except the wife is mad at me now.  How exactly is it *my* fault that I have to yell at her to get off her butt and get to sanding?  Sheeez.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Except maple sounds better.  LOL!!
> 
> A little Tung oil, and the Tiger popped right out of _this_ maple.


You can keep any whiskers you find, Finnegan will grow new ones.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Except the wife is mad at me now.  How exactly is it *my* fault that I have to yell at her to get off her butt and get to sanding?  Sheeez.


Mind “THE wife” or we will be down 1 man here 😂😂


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Except maple sounds better.  LOL!!
> 
> A little Tung oil, and the Tiger popped right out of _this_ maple.


Leaving it like that or using the danish oil? I like that look a lot by itself.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 6, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Leaving it like that or using the danish oil? I like that look a lot by itself.


I believe Bill uses Walnut Danish oil and the finish has been applied. I did not leave him a whole lot of sanding to do. He will use wax later.  Some folks use an orange dye but I rarely do myself. I really need to try some of the walnut Danish oil on birdseye maple, I bet it would really make that pop as well. Ordering some now lol.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Except maple sounds better.  LOL!!
> 
> A little Tung oil, and the Tiger popped right out of _this_ maple.


Looks great. Nice work Bill.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Does the shed have a bar?  I think you should focus on that first.


You could install in that bar beer taps that look like EL34s...


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Leaving it like that or using the danish oil? I like that look a lot by itself.


That is actually the Danish oil.  I need to let it cure out for several days, then I'll add a hand-rubbed wax coat that will give it just a bit of sheen.  The Tiger stripes almost line up with my mini-rack top shelf to boot.  

(Yes, I stole the mini-rack idea from @Paladin79 (too)....I have no shame )


----------



## therremans

Sometimes things from China appear when you consider it lost. I ordered this back in December. It runs on 6 volts, 8mm diameter, diffused red. It fits nicely behind the front plate. The color and light has a great look in person, strong and opaque without being blinding. They do make them in a variety of colors, including blue.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Looks great. Nice work Bill.


Thanks!  My part was the least of it though.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Sometimes things from China appear when you consider it lost. I ordered this back in December. It runs on 6 volts, 8mm diameter, diffused red. It fits nicely behind the front plate. The color and light has a great look in person, strong and opaque without being blinding. They do make them in a variety of colors, including blue.


Nice!  Do they have them in purple?  I need to pre-emptively steal that color for this application.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Nice!  Do they have them in purple?  I need to pre-emptively steal that color for this application.


No purple.



 eBay Link


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> No purple.
> 
> eBay Link


Very nice I may get some myself.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> No purple.
> 
> eBay Link


Thanks!  Ordered a red, white, and blue.  Figured if I blend them all together I'll get purple.   Seriously, I did order those 3 colors....if the white isn't too strong it'll match the LED's of the Schiit gear on the same rack.  If it is I'll use the blue or red.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> That is actually the Danish oil.  I need to let it cure out for several days, then I'll add a hand-rubbed wax coat that will give it just a bit of sheen.  The Tiger stripes almost line up with my mini-rack top shelf to boot.
> 
> (Yes, I stole the mini-rack idea from @Paladin79 (too)....I have no shame )


Who needs shame when you have that sexy stack of stripes?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  Ordered a red, white, and blue.  Figured if I blend them all together I'll get purple.   Seriously, I did order those 3 colors....if the white isn't too strong it'll match the LED's of the Schiit gear on the same rack.  If it is I'll use the blue or red.


Nice, yes I almost did that too, to match the Schiit and my monitors. I thought the white may be too bright but if it’s dim.. I’d use it. Let us know. This incandescent looking red is a classic look. I would  like to see the blue.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nice, yes I almost did that too, to match the Schiit and my monitors. I thought the white may be too bright but if it’s dim.. I’d use it. Let us know. This incandescent looking red is a classic look. I would  like to see the blue.


I'll post pics once they arrive.  Delivery date is stated as May 21st (meaning they'll probably show up next week).


----------



## DeweyCH

Mullard 6080 + Sylvania 6SN7W is one of the most immensely detailed combinations I've ever heard. Side-by-side against my Crack with a Tung-Sol 5998 + Mullard ECC82 and it sounds better to my ears.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Mullard 6080 + Sylvania 6SN7W is one of the most immensely detailed combinations I've ever heard. Side-by-side against my Crack with a Tung-Sol 5998 + Mullard ECC82 and it sounds better to my ears.


What were the Mullard + Sylvania in? Can you cross-install:  Mullard + Mullard, Tung-Sol + Sylvania to see where the improvement is coming from?


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> What were the Mullard + Sylvania in? Can you cross-install:  Mullard + Mullard, Tung-Sol + Sylvania to see where the improvement is coming from?


Yeah gonna do that, they were in the DV. Didn’t have a lot of listening time though. Will do more comparisons when I have a chance.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That is actually the Danish oil.  I need to let it cure out for several days, then I'll add a hand-rubbed wax coat that will give it just a bit of sheen.  The Tiger stripes almost line up with my mini-rack top shelf to boot.
> 
> (Yes, I stole the mini-rack idea from @Paladin79 (too)....I have no shame )


It’s coming out nicely 😍
But you better hide the Loki coz using any kind of equalizer within the music chain is pure blasphemy in the die hard audiophile community 😛😛😛


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> Mullard 6080 + Sylvania 6SN7W is one of the most immensely detailed combinations I've ever heard. Side-by-side against my Crack with a Tung-Sol 5998 + Mullard ECC82 and it sounds better to my ears.



This is with stock Crack, correct?  No Speedball yet?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Yeah gonna do that, they were in the DV. Didn’t have a lot of listening time though. Will do more comparisons when I have a chance.


It's obviously time to upgrade the Crack.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> It’s coming out nicely 😍
> But you better hide the Loki coz using any kind of equalizer within the music chain is pure blasphemy in the die hard audiophile community 😛😛😛


The Loki?  How did _that_ get in there?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> It’s coming out nicely 😍
> But you better hide the Loki coz using any kind of equalizer within the music chain is pure blasphemy in the die hard audiophile community 😛😛😛


It should be. In Norse mythology, Loki is the god of mischief. Ergo, equalisers play mischief on audio systems...🤪


----------



## HTSkywalker

BTW I had a chance to compare the Loki with the Rolls Bellari EQ570 and the Bellari did a better job most probably due to different frequency control knobs but neither is transparent even in passive mode. I don't own any though 😇😇


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's obviously time to upgrade the Crack.


A Crack can sound wonderful with some upgrades and if you have upgraded the DV I can imagine getting your results. To compare a stock DV and Crack is another matter lol.

When I first built a Crack I figured up what it might cost me in parts and that number was fairly low. Roughly $350 in upgrades gave me a sound I liked, not counting labor.  I may have around the same amount in a DV to get it to a similar level. Stock, I would take the Crack without Speedball over a DV in a heartbeat.


----------



## DeweyCH

L0rdGwyn said:


> This is with stock Crack, correct?  No Speedball yet?


Correct, I’m following the Bottlehead recommendation of listening to stock for a few weeks before installing speedball.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> Correct, I’m following the Bottlehead recommendation of listening to stock for a few weeks before installing speedball.



Gotcha.  Well expect the sound to improve quite dramatically with the Speedball in place, I doubt at that point you will prefer the DarkVoice, but you never know!


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> Gotcha.  Well expect the sound to improve quite dramatically with the Speedball in place, I doubt at that point you will prefer the DarkVoice, but you never know!


I did not use the speedball after my upgrades, no need for it. I can barely remember what a stock Crack sounded like though. I wish I could not remember what the stock DV sounds like after spending time testing tubes in it Friday and Saturday lol. I am trying to cleanse my ears with Focal Utopias on an Incubus this morn.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I did not use the speedball after my upgrades, no need for it. I can barely remember what a stock Crack sounded like though. I wish I could not remember what the stock DV sounds like after spending time testing tubes in it Friday and Saturday lol. I am trying to cleanse my ears with Focal Utopias on an Incubus this morn.


I bet you still have the Darkvoice on that cherry shelf.


----------



## JKDJedi

Raytheon VT-231 & TungSOl 6080 playing nice this morning..


----------



## HTSkywalker

Well guys, i had to Google Crack and Speedball to be able to decipher your messages 😂😂
Now i feel a bit less dum 😃😃


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Well guys, i had to Google Crack and Speedball to be able to decipher your messages 😂😂
> Now i feel a bit less dum 😃😃


lol.. Google is your friend here, tempted to grab a Crack myself. Only my wood working skills are limited.. do you glue this thing together ?


----------



## bcowen (Mar 7, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> lol.. Google is your friend here, tempted to grab a Crack myself. Only my wood working skills are limited.. do you glue this thing together ?


Rivets.

And just remember -- this is what happens to your teeth when you do Crack.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I bet you still have the Darkvoice on that cherry shelf.


Oh hell no and do I hear a wager in the works?  Something like I spray cherry and maple with several layers of black lacquer and then you tell me which one sounds better. Oh wait you would have a 50/50 chance. Seven pieces of other wood and you pick out the maple??? I think a suitable wager would be a case of wine and a steak dinner every three days for a month.   I would need your choice after one day, I am not leaving you enough time to strip and touch up the wood.

My Incubi sit on cherry shelves as well of course but for some reason I have never used that on an Incubus cabinet. I guess I should one day. Oh and which walnut did you use on the extension, there is black, medium, and light walnut Danish oil. I ordered some medium.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> bcowen said:
> 
> 
> > Rivets.
> ...


Getting my nail gun ready! And yeah...Crack kills... That's nasty...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh hell no and do I hear a wager in the works?  Something like I spray cherry and maple with several layers of black lacquer and then you tell me which one sounds better. Oh wait you would have a 50/50 chance. Seven pieces of other wood and you pick out the maple??? I think a suitable wager would be a case of wine and a steak dinner every three days for a month.   I would need your choice after one day, I am not leaving you enough time to strip and touch up the wood.
> 
> My Incubi sit on cherry shelves as well of course but for some reason I have never used that on an Incubus cabinet. I guess I should one day. Oh and which walnut did you use on the extension, there is black, medium, and light walnut Danish oil. I ordered some medium.


No way I'm so unkind to put you to all that work just to have to buy me dinner(s).      

I used the medium walnut (Watco brand Danish Oil).  Looks really nice on actual walnut too!

Unfinished:




2 coats of the oil...no wax yet:


----------



## Ripper2860

I thought you'd like the 'rustic' unfinished look best, given your barn upbringing.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I thought you'd like the 'rustic' unfinished look best, given your barn upbringing.


You obviously haven't been paying attention.  I grew up in a cardboard box.  Triple wall though.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice try.  Google Earth is your friend...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mmm seems my Dremel tools would  be put to some good use as well as the airbrush 😊😊


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No way I'm so unkind to put you to all that work just to have to buy me dinner(s).
> 
> I used the medium walnut (Watco brand Danish Oil).  Looks really nice on actual walnut too!
> 
> ...


The reason for different Danish oils in walnut is because some looks much darker than others. Here are three pieces from my racks, that is white walnut on the right, also known as butternut. Nothing but mineral spirits is added to bring out the natural colors. Medium makes sense with tiger maple, I have also seen orange dye used to make the stripes pop. I used golden oak Danish oil on the tiger maple top to a box.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You obviously haven't been paying attention.  I grew up in a cardboard box.  Triple wall though.


?? First it was single-wall, then double-wall, now triple-wall...What is the real story?...Inflating the ‘wall count’ to appease home lender concerned 😲 with home value supporting the mortgage?...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2021)

I'm sure he does inflate the wall count to increase 'value' for loans and then reduces the wall count and 'value' for taxes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

I had to send the man tiger maple and black limba so he would stop insulting the amp case I built for him lol. I used real wood this last time.    I have some of this on the way and there is plenty of it in Indiana.


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> This is with stock Crack, correct?  No Speedball yet?


what does the Speedball do ?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice try.  Google Earth is your friend...


Given the size and weight, would this not be a ‘mobile’ home?....This might even be a ‘mini’ double-wide...


----------



## qingcai

qingcai said:


> what does the Speedball do ?


Speedball is our Camille Cascode Constant Current Source upgrade for the Crack headphone amplifier. The 22.1KΩ plate loads of the 12AU7 input triodes are replaced by C4S loads, as are the 3KΩ cathode load resistors of the 6080 triodes. The PC board for the loads on the 6080 tube has very ample heat sinks to assure high reliability. The same Speedball 1.1 kit is an upgrade for Crack 1.1 and the original Crack.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> what does the Speedball do ?



Generally, what a CCS load does is regulate the plate current of the tube while providing a very high AC impedance load.  This has a few significant benefits...

1) The load line of the tube is flattened, leading to lower distortion and higher gain (gain approach mu of the tube)
2) The high AC impedance provides excellent power supply isolation, meaning less ripple gets through to the output signal
3) If using cathode bias with a resistor, leaving the resistor unbypassed (i.e. cathode degenerated) does not significantly increase the output impedance of the stage, so the resistor can be left unbypassed, removing a capacitor from the signal path.  This is my personal preference over something like LED bias if using a CCS load.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I recently experimented quite a bit with CCS loaded pentodes in a design that will use local negative feedback.  Special consideration needs to be taken to make it work, but you can attain absolutely ridiculous levels of gain!  Gain of 500, 1000 or more.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice try.  Google Earth is your friend...


Is that all you've got?  Nothing more?

Whew!  I figured you'd be _furious_ I posted that picture of your teeth, so was prepared for much worse.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ?? First it was single-wall, then double-wall, now triple-wall...What is the real story?...Inflating the ‘wall count’ to appease home lender concerned 😲 with home value supporting the mortgage?...


Next week it will be quadruple-wall.  I add layers when Lowe's has a bunch of boxes in their dumpster.  Pretty soon I'll be up to 3/4" thick...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The reason for different Danish oils in walnut is because some looks much darker than others. Here are three pieces from my racks, that is white walnut on the right, also known as butternut. Nothing but mineral spirits is added to bring out the natural colors. Medium makes sense with tiger maple, I have also seen orange dye used to make the stripes pop. I used golden oak Danish oil on the tiger maple top to a box.


I like the one in the middle.  The one on the right almost looks like oak (which is 2nd only to maple sonically).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I like the one in the middle.  The one on the right almost looks like oak (which is 2nd only to maple sonically).


The one in the middle will be the next one I use for a build. White walnut is in the eastern US and Canada so you should be familiar with it but maybe it is more north of you.
That is white walnut on the outside of both of these builds but the one with tiger maple I darkened to get the tiger stripes to pop. The other is more natural.


----------



## DeweyCH

Same combination as last night - Mullard 6080 + Sylvania 6SN7W. Popped my other Mullard into the Crack to do a side-by-side, and the detail is greater than with the TS 5998. Not as warm or as beefy, but detail is outstanding. Still sounds better with the Sylvania than the Mullard 12au7; next I'll be trying out the 12au7-->6sn7 adapter on the Crack, maybe do a side-by-side of the Mullard/Sylvania in the Crack vs. Mullard/CBS brown-base in the DV.

First though gotta quickly grab the voltage reading of my DV's heaters.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Jedi posted the calculation method. You'll need to measure the AC voltage between pins 7 and 8 to see what you have. If yours is like everyone else's, you'll probably get around 7 volts.


Just so I'm clear... I clip the black probe on pin 7 and prod pin 8 with the red probe? Or did I read that wrong?


----------



## DeweyCH

6.6 volts


----------



## L0rdGwyn

DeweyCH said:


> 6.6 volts



Wouldn't even bother messing with it then, 6.6V is fine.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Just so I'm clear... I clip the black probe on pin 7 and prod pin 8 with the red probe? Or did I read that wrong?


Yup, one lead on pin 7 and one on pin 8.  Black/Red doesn't make any difference as it's an AC voltage.  If you're getting 6.6v I'd probably just leave it alone.  That's well within the +/- 10% filament voltage spec of most tubes.


----------



## DeweyCH

Lucky me!


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, test 2 - Crack with the Sylvania + Mullard 6080 and the DV now with the same Mullard and a CBS/Hytron 5692





Now, the Crack sounds amazing. The supreme detail came along with the Sylvania. Just a wow tube.

CBS is also a fantastic tube. Vocals seem a little recessed in comparison, but it's got the same realism and timbre around the piano.

Really, can't argue with either, but the Sylvania's ahead by a nose. These are two fantastic 6sn7 variants, and I'm not sure I can come up with a 12au7/ECC82 that can hold a candle to either.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

My version of bonded twisted pair. Making all twists as exact as possible, heat shrink tubing helps maintain the proper twists. I am to that point on a build. An engineer at Belden caused me to take more care.😺This amp is going to a retired engineer in Georgia.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> OK, test 2 - Crack with the Sylvania + Mullard 6080 and the DV now with the same Mullard and a CBS/Hytron 5692
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...and this is all pre-speedball...raises the interesting question:  can a tube be “wow” in itself or only with another tube?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> Same combination as last night - Mullard 6080 + Sylvania 6SN7W. Popped my other Mullard into the Crack to do a side-by-side, and the detail is greater than with the TS 5998. Not as warm or as beefy, but detail is outstanding. Still sounds better with the Sylvania than the Mullard 12au7; next I'll be trying out the 12au7-->6sn7 adapter on the Crack, maybe do a side-by-side of the Mullard/Sylvania in the Crack vs. Mullard/CBS brown-base in the DV.
> 
> First though gotta quickly grab the voltage reading of my DV's heaters.


😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> OK, test 2 - Crack with the Sylvania + Mullard 6080 and the DV now with the same Mullard and a CBS/Hytron 5692
> 
> 
> 
> ...


see you are using the JDS Lab OL switcher, any degradation in audio ?
I opted for the Rolls SS32 with 4 total inputs/Outputs as I hate to introduce a potentiometer within the routing.
https://www.rolls.com/product/SS32


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> see you are using the JDS Lab OL switcher, any degradation in audio ?
> I opted for the Rolls SS32 with 4 total inputs/Outputs as I hate to introduce a potentiometer within the routing.
> https://www.rolls.com/product/SS32


None I can hear, I don’t mess with the pot on it though, just leave it at 100%


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> OK, test 2 - Crack with the Sylvania + Mullard 6080 and the DV now with the same Mullard and a CBS/Hytron 5692
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The CBS/Hytron is a very particular tube IME.  In some amps (and in some combinations) it totally sings -- really digs deep into the harmonics and low-level detail.  A bit less defined in the bass compared to something like a Sylvie 6SN7W or Foton or Melz, but in the right circumstance it portrays a piano like few other tubes.  I really liked that tube in Cary gear regardless of what it was paired with.  Left me rather flat in both the Schitts (Vali 2 and Lyr 3) though. Not that it was bad, it just didn't reach the upper tier.

The best 12AU7 *I've* heard (to date) is the Amperex 7316 with the long plates and foil getter.  Mucho $$$ these days though.  I have a few of the short plate, O getters versions, but they are rather ordinary sounding in comparison.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> The CBS/Hytron is a very particular tube IME.  In some amps (and in some combinations) it totally sings -- really digs deep into the harmonics and low-level detail.  A bit less defined in the bass compared to something like a Sylvie 6SN7W or Foton or Melz, but in the right circumstance it portrays a piano like few other tubes.  I really liked that tube in Cary gear regardless of what it was paired with.  Left me rather flat in both the Schitts (Vali 2 and Lyr 3) though. Not that it was bad, it just didn't reach the upper tier.
> 
> The best 12AU7 *I've* heard (to date) is the Amperex 7316 with the long plates and foil getter.  Mucho $$$ these days though.  I have a few of the short plate, O getters versions, but they are rather ordinary sounding in comparison.


I’ll see tonight how it sounds in the Crack and also how it likes being paired with the 5998 rather than the 6080


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> The CBS/Hytron is a very particular tube IME.  In some amps (and in some combinations) it totally sings -- really digs deep into the harmonics and low-level detail.  A bit less defined in the bass compared to something like a Sylvie 6SN7W or Foton or Melz, but in the right circumstance it portrays a piano like few other tubes.  I really liked that tube in Cary gear regardless of what it was paired with.  Left me rather flat in both the Schitts (Vali 2 and Lyr 3) though. Not that it was bad, it just didn't reach the upper tier.
> 
> The best 12AU7 *I've* heard (to date) is the Amperex 7316 with the long plates and foil getter.  Mucho $$$ these days though.  I have a few of the short plate, O getters versions, but they are rather ordinary sounding in comparison.


I like the 5692 CBS/Hytron in my Freya plus, I tried running a quad of matched Melz and it was like overkill, two 5692's and two quality 1578's and I am happy.

I was working away, nearly completed the electronics for an amp but.... I ran out of 1k 25 watt resistors so I am dead in the water. I already have my power supplies ready to go and after over fifty builds I am not even sure where my schematic is but I suppose I could locate it if I had to. I hope to do all woodworking next weekend if the weather stays nice.

My wife is in the middle of painting a rather large bowl so no woodworking today.  Time for some scotch I suppose.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The CBS/Hytron is a very particular tube IME.  In some amps (and in some combinations) it totally sings -- really digs deep into the harmonics and low-level detail.  A bit less defined in the bass compared to something like a Sylvie 6SN7W or Foton or Melz, but in the right circumstance it portrays a piano like few other tubes.  I really liked that tube in Cary gear regardless of what it was paired with.  Left me rather flat in both the Schitts (Vali 2 and Lyr 3) though. Not that it was bad, it just didn't reach the upper tier.
> 
> The best 12AU7 *I've* heard (to date) is the Amperex 7316 with the long plates and foil getter.  Mucho $$$ these days though.  I have a few of the short plate, O getters versions, but they are rather ordinary sounding in comparison.


Ditto. I love the CBS/Hytron 5692 (w/adapter) in the Woo WA6. Also, the long-plate Amperex 7316 ($$$😪) works wonders (adapter too) for me when allied with GEC CV5008 in the OTL Woo WA3...live and learn...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I like the 5692 CBS/Hytron in my Freya plus, I tried running a quad of matched Melz and it was like overkill, two 5692's and two quality 1578's and I am happy.
> 
> I was working away, nearly completed the electronics for an amp but.... I ran out of 1k 25 watt resistors so I am dead in the water. My wife is in the middle of painting a rather large bowl so no woodworking today.  Time for some scotch I suppose.


The bowl looks great. Have you ever considered a ceramic base for a headphone amplifier?...🤔


----------



## bcowen (Mar 7, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I ran out of 1k 25 watt resistors so I am dead in the water.



I have a pair coming out of the Darkvoice....want them?   

And those are the most unique tubes I've ever seen.  Do they sound closer to the master tape?  (I'm cracking myself up)


----------



## SHIMACM

jonathan c said:


> ...and this is all pre-speedball...raises the interesting question:  can a tube be “wow” in itself or only with another tube?...


The tube does not sing by itself.  The synergy between the valves is the end result.  I have 13 different power valves and 10 driver valves.  All valves are very good.  However, there are combinations that are either erased or too aggressive.  But when you find the perfect match they just sing.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The bowl looks great. Have you ever considered a ceramic base for a headphone amplifier?...🤔


Nope just ceramics in headphone racks. I am not sure my wife does rectangles well, she is making me some large coffee cups so I hate to bug her too much lol.



One day I may include matching headphone racks with my amps but first I need to get my wife set up doing pottery in the shed.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I have a pair coming out of the Darkvoice....want them?
> 
> And those are the most unique tubes I've ever seen.  Do they sound closer to the master tape?


Those must be the legendary, the mythical, the revered 🤫 3M flat-plate, no-getter, full-air “bandage boys” - only two were ever made...


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I have a pair coming out of the Darkvoice....want them?
> 
> And those are the most unique tubes I've ever seen.  Do they sound closer to the master tape?


Shhh I am keeping debris out of the sockets lol, I was much less careful on your extension box of course. This amp is for a gentleman I truly respect, he shipped me satsumas, twice.   I am lucky to get a measly bottle of BBQ sauce out of some jackalopes. 

Oh and no thanks on the resistors unless you are going to throw them out and happened to have something else coming my way, I order in bulk and you just gave me the idea to steal the ones out of the DV lol.  Its not like I will be listening to it till it sounds better.


----------



## jonathan c

SHIMACM said:


> The tube does not sing by itself.  The synergy between the valves is the end result.  I have 13 different power valves and 10 driver valves.  All valves are very good.  However, there are combinations that are either erased or too aggressive.  But when you find the perfect match they just sing.


AGREED. Thank goodness that the only way to assemble tube “choirs” is by rolling and not by textbook....it is fun & educational. I am also thinking, as a non-EE, that the synergy between valves and the surrounding circuit is also critical...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> AGREED. Thank goodness that the only way to assemble tube “choirs” is by rolling and not by textbook....it is fun & educational. I am also thinking, as a non-EE, that the synergy between valves and the surrounding circuit is also critical...


One day I need to send a serious amp with some serious tubes your all's way, I try sending out loaners but they do not make it very far, the last one stayed in the south and it caused me to start building more.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> One day I need to send a serious amp with some serious tubes your all's way, I try sending out loaners but they do not make it very far, the last one stayed in the south and it caused me to start building more.


NC?....hmm....


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> NC?....hmm....


Yes, he should send them ALL to North Carolina.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> NC?....hmm....


No I gave @bcowen  an amp ages ago, I have donated seven to date but I need to stop doing that or Finnegan will go hungry lol. I sent a loaner to a buddy in Georgia, then a guy in Alabama who already owns an Incubus wanted a second one for his office so it is there now. Then my friend in Georgia wanted one as well. I was supposed to send one out west to be played against a Feliks Alise but it never got that far. Two are in a house in Pennsylvania but those were major builds that took a lot more labor and parts.

Bill was involved early on with a sample I made, then I left four with my local audio group for a 6sn7 equivalent blind test. Those guys all wanted one, as did all but one of the guys who heard a prototype.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No I gave @bcowen  an amp ages ago, I have donated seven to date but I need to stop doing that or Finnegan will go hungry lol. I sent a loaner to a buddy in Georgia, then a guy in Alabama who already owns an Incubus wanted a second one for his office so it is there now. Then my friend in Georgia wanted one as well. I was supposed to send one out west to be played against a Feliks Alise but it never got that far. Two are in a house in Pennsylvania but those were major builds that took a lot more labor and parts.
> 
> Bill was involved early on with a sample I made, then I left four with my local audio group for a 6sn7 equivalent blind test. Those guys all wanted one, as did all but one of the guys who heard a prototype.


There's no such thing as too many amps.  Feel free to send more.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many amps.  Feel free to send more.


Come to think of it I do not believe you have heard the current version. Ripper has one of course but you best have some serious headphones. I built you an extension for the DV, if I sent you one in tiger maple you would just try to talk me out of it.   Here is a better photo of what I was trying to describe earlier, that is just a headphone rack I purchased, but I would combine the face and that shaped rack.


----------



## qingcai

L0rdGwyn said:


> Generally, what a CCS load does is regulate the plate current of the tube while providing a very high AC impedance load.  This has a few significant benefits...
> 
> 1) The load line of the tube is flattened, leading to lower distortion and higher gain (gain approach mu of the tube)
> 2) The high AC impedance provides excellent power supply isolation, meaning less ripple gets through to the output signal
> 3) If using cathode bias with a resistor, leaving the resistor unbypassed (i.e. cathode degenerated) does not significantly increase the output impedance of the stage, so the resistor can be left unbypassed, removing a capacitor from the signal path.  This is my personal preference over something like LED bias if using a CCS load.


I have read ccs like LM317 can bring some white noise, the module you are using should be ok , right ?


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 7, 2021)

that Motorola (Sylvania) 6SN7GT whose left channel was out? I was about to resolder it and couldn't remember which side was out so I popped it in for a check, heard a POP on the left side...and it's now working.. o.O  wha da !?


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Yes, he should send them ALL to North Carolina.


South Carolina would be a good choice too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 7, 2021)

Galapac said:


> South Carolina would be a good choice too.


Drive up to Bill's place and he will enchant you with his Marilyn Manson collection lol. Do not judge my amp by what he has though, his is sideways and made out of double wall cardboard.. I may not have put a headphone jack on that one come to think of it.    I believe Bill has to bite down on a corner and try to pick up the vibrations through his skull.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yes, he should send them ALL to North Carolina.


Even going global 😛😛😛


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Even going global 😛😛😛


Now there’s a bad idea.🙀


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many amps.  Feel free to send more.


If one holds the mix of input tubes, output tubes, rectifier tubes, etc. constant per amp type, one can just roll amps?...The next frontier...🌏🪐💫?...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If one holds the mix of input tubes, output tubes, rectifier tubes, etc. constant per amp type, one can just roll amps?...The next frontier...🌏🪐💫?...


Headphones truly matter a lot, as do speakers. I could tell the top end on an Incubus was restricted till I found the right headphones. I only look for top end ZMF, Focal, and Sennheiser now as far as headphones. I need highly efficient speakers for an amp I designed so things like Klipsch come to mind.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> If one holds the mix of input tubes, output tubes, rectifier tubes, etc. constant per amp type, one can just roll amps?...The next frontier...🌏🪐💫?...


In fact amps would be the cheapest component  in this chain 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 7, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Headphones truly matter a lot, as do speakers. I could tell the top end on an Incubus was restricted till I found the right headphones. I only look for top end ZMF, Focal, and Sennheiser now as far as headphones. I need highly efficient speakers for an amp I designed so things like Klipsch come to mind.


I have the Golden Ears Triton Five, will never look any further as it is a sonic blessing and it kicks way above it's price bracket and fairly efficient too.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/speaker-reviews/goldenear-technology-triton-five-review/
https://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

But I often pass by the speaker shop when I can to listen to their Magico speaker line on my way to buy a lottery ticket lol
As for Headphones, The HD800S, Focal Clear, Audeze LCD-X and Hifiman Arya were on my hit list but ended up getting the Ananda which did hit the best combination in terms of performance vs price and was tempted to try Planars and the Clear didn't fall much away from the Focal house sound close to my Elear.
Probably you are very happy with your Utopia, I never auditioned but the reviews are overwhelming and so is the price lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I have the Golden Ears Triton Five, will never look any further as it is a sonic blessing and it kicks way above it's price bracket and fairly efficient too.
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/speaker-reviews/goldenear-technology-triton-five-review/
> https://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series
> 
> ...



I do like the Utopias, we use Senn HD 800’s in our tube testing, but I need to get some ZMF Verite sometime.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Headphones truly matter a lot, as do speakers. I could tell the top end on an Incubus was restricted till I found the right headphones. I only look for top end ZMF, Focal, and Sennheiser now as far as headphones. I need highly efficient speakers for an amp I designed so things like Klipsch come to mind.


Remember the Paul Klipsch epithet?...”What this country needs is a good five-watt amplifier”.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 7, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I do like the Utopias, we use Senn HD 800’s in our tube testing, but I need to get some ZMF Verite sometime.


The Senn is cruel and analyzing enough for testing but not for listening pleasure IMO, only maybe for classical music where they excel in soundstage. else than that they can get as criticizing as a wife 😁😁😁
Heard lots of good things about The Verite open


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Remember the Paul Klipsch epithet?...”What this country needs is a good five-watt amplifier”.


Sounds right for the time. I deal with friends who worked there, the headquarters is now in Indianapolis, but they still build in Hope Arkansas.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it I do not believe you have heard the current version. Ripper has one of course but you best have some serious headphones. I built you an extension for the DV, if I sent you one in tiger maple you would just try to talk me out of it.   Here is a better photo of what I was trying to describe earlier, that is just a headphone rack I purchased, but I would combine the face and that shaped rack.


Hey, you should Mr. Potatohead those face plates. Stick some magnets on different ceramic appendages (mind out of the gutter boys). Allow the user to customize the stand


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Headphones truly matter a lot, as do speakers. I could tell the top end on an Incubus was restricted till I found the right headphones. I only look for top end ZMF, Focal, and Sennheiser now as far as headphones. I need highly efficient speakers for an amp I designed so things like Klipsch come to mind.


I have exactly those 3 headphone makers in Utopia, Closed Verite, and HD820. It covers the spectrum for me. Out of those 3 the ZMFs get the most play due to sheer fun and enjoyment.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> I have read ccs like LM317 can bring some white noise, the module you are using should be ok , right ?



That would be a problem lol no there is no white noise.  The gyrator I used in the modded DarkVoice used a DN2540 MOSFET and J310 JFET.  When using cascode CCS, I usually use IXCP10M90S or IXTP08N100D2 for the top device, and DN2540 or IXTP08N50D2 for the bottom device.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I have exactly those 3 headphone makers in Utopia, Closed Verite, and HD820. It covers the spectrum for me. Out of those 3 the ZMFs get the most play due to sheer fun and enjoyment.


Maybe I should send you a loaner amp lol you have the headphones to show off the Incubus. I own closed headphones but prefer open. Which DAC?


----------



## Galapac

I have a Topping D70 and a Fiio DAP. 
Both use AKM chips, the D70 has dual AK4497 and the Fiio has dual AK4499 chips.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I have a Topping D70 and a Fiio DAP.
> Both use AKM chips, the D70 has dual AK4497 and the Fiio has dual AK4499 chips.


I just gave away a Topping but they scored well in a DAC challenge my group held. Pick a hard wood and maybe I can make you a pretty cabinet on a loaner.  You have equipment I would use. With what you have I would be tempted to loan you a 6SN7 you could tell your grandkids about. A dozen friends have rated it among the best ever.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it I do not believe you have heard the current version. Ripper has one of course but you best have some serious headphones. I built you an extension for the DV, if I sent you one in tiger maple you would just try to talk me out of it.   Here is a better photo of what I was trying to describe earlier, that is just a headphone rack I purchased, but I would combine the face and that shaped rack.


A couple more ideas for your stand (actual serious ones this time)…

Hows about instead of a ceramic face, you have a ceramic plug with a couple holes (for lack of a better term) in it. The holes are there to plug your IEMs into, and then also have some sort of cable winder/wrap thingy on the bottom of the ceramic. Voila, headphone _and_ IEM stand.
Finally, since this is supposed to be a tube rolling thread, why not hang a powered tube in the middle like a light bulb (got the idea from your other tube stand) I don't know if an octal will fit in there, but I can't see why a 9-pin won't. I have a GE 5670 that's almost bright enough to use as a night light


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> A couple more ideas for your stand (actual serious ones this time)…
> 
> Hows about instead of a ceramic face, you have a ceramic plug with a couple holes (for lack of a better term) in it. The holes are there to plug your IEMs into, and then also have some sort of cable winder/wrap thingy on the bottom of the ceramic. Voila, headphone _and_ IEM stand.
> Finally, since this is supposed to be a tube rolling thread, why not hang a powered tube in the middle like a light bulb (got the idea from your other tube stand) I don't know if an octal will fit in there, but I can't see why a 9-pin won't. I have a GE 5670 that's almost bright enough to use as a night light


I will consider it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> that Motorola (Sylvania) 6SN7GT whose left channel was out? I was about to resolder it and couldn't remember which side was out so I popped it in for a check, heard a POP on the left side...and it's now working.. o.O  wha da !?


Perhaps you should clean your sockets once every 20 years or so.


----------



## Deceneu808

Is there a way to actually measure how much power the DV is outputting ? Say in to 300 Ohm...
"Official" specs rate it at 1W but at what load...


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Is there a way to actually measure how much power the DV is outputting ? Say in to 300 Ohm...
> "Official" specs rate it at 1W but at what load...






This shows 310 mW @ 300 Ohms.
Source: Review and Measurements of DarkVoice 336SE Headphone Amp


----------



## SHIMACM

DeweyCH said:


> I’ll see tonight how it sounds in the Crack and also how it likes being paired with the 5998 rather than the 6080



I am very interested in continuing to read your Darkvoice and Crack comparisons.

Crack, for a long time, was a purchase option for me, but I read a lot of comments saying it was not a real Darkvoice update, even with speedball installed.

I also read contradictory opinions, with some saying the speedball harmed the tube rolling, while others said the speedball improved the perceived difference in the tube rolling.

I look forward to your future impressions, even more the way you are doing, comparing the amplifiers with different tubes, which is very good.

Using equivalent tubes, or close together, is very good.

I saw an example of people saying that La Fígaro 339 is better than Crack with Speedball, but in Crack there was a RCA 6as7g, while in La Fígaro there were two Mullards 6080.

The tube makes a lot of difference.

Therefore, when comparing amplifiers without matching the tubes used, the results will certainly be different from reality.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I am very interested in continuing to read your Darkvoice and Crack comparisons.
> 
> Crack, for a long time, was a purchase option for me, but I read a lot of comments saying it was not a real Darkvoice update, even with speedball installed.
> 
> ...


I do not take the time to keep track but it is also good to know if folks are comparing a modified DV to a Crack or whatever. I never liked the Speedball upgrade in the Crack and I have certainly used it in a couple builds but that is only one person's opinion, I believe more in the wisdom of crowds.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Tomorrow my DV should arrive, keeping my fingers crossed as a COVID related delay alert is circulating but am optimistic 🤩🤩


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I do not take the time to keep track but it is also good to know if folks are comparing a modified DV to a Crack or whatever. I never liked the Speedball upgrade in the Crack and I have certainly used it in a couple builds but that is only one person's opinion, I believe more in the wisdom of crowds.



It's crazy given the perspective right?  Your experience with building quality amps at many tiers higher in level/performance versus the Crack and DVs of the world would certainly qualify you as you understand the true potential possibilities of what constitutes as quality sound.

From the perspective of people just climbing upwards the chain without hearing any other amp that is better (in higher classed tiers), I'd say about 9/10 have favored the Crack over the DV, and even more so with the Speedball upgrade.   But yeah, its a very interesting comparison for sure, and now that higher value mods are being done to the DV, interesting to see how the gap is affected between the two amps.


----------



## DeweyCH

Not a ton of comparisons made yet, was trying to get the adapters to work in the first place, but I'm happy to see that my GEC 4079/2293s all seem to work. Don't have any clue why they come and go with regards to electrical buzzing, but they sound very nice when they do.

Oh, and this Conn-branded RCA 12au7 is nice and clear, think it's a better sound than my Mullard to my ears.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> It's crazy given the perspective right?  Your experience with building quality amps at many tiers higher in level/performance versus the Crack and DVs of the world would certainly qualify you as you understand the true potential possibilities of what constitutes as quality sound.
> 
> From the perspective of people just climbing upwards the chain without hearing any other amp that is better (in higher classed tiers), I'd say about 9/10 have favored the Crack over the DV, and even more so with the Speedball upgrade.   But yeah, its a very interesting comparison for sure, and now that higher value mods are being done to the DV, interesting to see how the gap is affected between the two amps.



Very true and well said.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I do not take the time to keep track but it is also good to know if folks are comparing a modified DV to a Crack or whatever. I never liked the Speedball upgrade in the Crack and I have certainly used it in a couple builds but that is only one person's opinion, I believe more in the wisdom of crowds.


Bottlehead even says that some people prefer the stock Crack to Speedball. But the modified Darkvoice holds its own extremely well vs. the stock Crack. Still have mods I'm gonna do to the DV... specifically I want to replace the output wires with a twisted pair, and I still want to try to remove and replace the 10uF/250v caps on that main PCB board. I really want to make sure I have one working 6sn7/6080 amp while I'm tinkering with the other.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Not a ton of comparisons made yet, was trying to get the adapters to work in the first place, but I'm happy to see that my GEC 4079/2293s all seem to work. Don't have any clue why they come and go with regards to electrical buzzing, but they sound very nice when they do.
> 
> Oh, and this Conn-branded RCA 12au7 is nice and clear, think it's a better sound than my Mullard to my ears.


I'll take a clear-top (side getter) RCA 12AU7 any day over the Mullard CV-4003's I have, FWIW.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> I'll take a clear-top (side getter) RCA 12AU7 any day over the Mullard CV-4003's I have, FWIW.


Same, now. My 12au7 collection was put together mostly for my LP, I've got two Baldwin-branded Raytheons, the two Conn-branded RCAs, a pair of Philips/Mullards and the single Mullard I was running yesterday. LP has the Philips in it right now. Might have to put the RCAs back in it since I have a lot more 6SN7 selection and it plays very nicely with the Crack.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Bottlehead even says that some people prefer the stock Crack to Speedball. But the modified Darkvoice holds its own extremely well vs. the stock Crack. Still have mods I'm gonna do to the DV... specifically I want to replace the output wires with a twisted pair, and I still want to try to remove and replace the 10uF/250v caps on that main PCB board. I really want to make sure I have one working 6sn7/6080 amp while I'm tinkering with the other.


Be sure to use a very good quality wire for the output.  Besides the twisting, I think a high purity copper (or silver) wire there will provide benefits.  I'll be using 20 gauge Neotech PCOCC copper when I get to that point with mine.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Bottlehead even says that some people prefer the stock Crack to Speedball. But the modified Darkvoice holds its own extremely well vs. the stock Crack. Still have mods I'm gonna do to the DV... specifically I want to replace the output wires with a twisted pair, and I still want to try to remove and replace the 10uF/250v caps on that main PCB board. I really want to make sure I have one working 6sn7/6080 amp while I'm tinkering with the other.


Get your changes done and maybe I will send a loaner Incubus your way sometime. I like the sound and local friends did as well but I was not sure if they were just humoring me, so I sent a sample to @bcowen, Ripper, Jedi, et alii,  and they convinced me they liked it as well and many of these gentlemen have gear that others only dream about.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Get your changes done and maybe I will send a loaner Incubus your way sometime. I like the sound and local friends did as well but I was not sure if they were just humoring me, so I sent a sample to @bcowen, Ripper, Jedi, et alii,  and they convinced me they liked it as well and many of these gentlemen have gear that others only dream about.


Nice, I'd love to hear one.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 8, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Be sure to use a very good quality wire for the output.  Besides the twisting, I think a high purity copper (or silver) wire there will provide benefits.  I'll be using 20 gauge Neotech PCOCC copper when I get to that point with mine.


I generally use an 18 awg solid core silver plated copper that is Mil grade. If using stranded it is the same gauge and type put out by Belden, they tend to use the term high purity rather than OFC. I have favorites on shielded twisted pair as well of course.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Get your changes done and maybe I will send a loaner Incubus your way sometime. I like the sound and local friends did as well but I was not sure if they were just humoring me, so I sent a sample to @bcowen, Ripper, Jedi, et alii,  and they convinced me they liked it as well and many of these gentlemen have gear that others only dream about.


I do believe that's the first time you've used my name and gentleman in the same sentence.  I'm gonna go have a beer!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I do believe that's the first time you've used my name and gentleman in the same sentence.  I'm gonna go have a beer!


Beer on cornflakes, breakfast of champions.  I must be getting senile to have included you in that group but I was in a hurry lol  Oh and a loaner Incubus may be in your neck of the woods soon, I did not add a preamp out but maybe it will find its way to your house for a quick visit since it is a Version 2.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Be sure to use a very good quality wire for the output.  Besides the twisting, I think a high purity copper (or silver) wire there will provide benefits.  I'll be using 20 gauge Neotech PCOCC copper when I get to that point with mine.


Awhile back, I installed replacement wire for my input using shielded mogami quad conductive cable. RCA > Pot. Besides maybe being funny looking, is using this cable wire good or bad?
Since I’m also replacing the output wires with the same Neotech wire, should I just go ahead and replace the mogami cable with Neotech as well?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 8, 2021)

> @bcowen said: I do believe that's the first time you've used my name and gentleman in the same sentence. I'm gonna go have a beer!



You might want to tap the brakes a bit.  He qualified it by stating 'many' and not 'all' for a reason.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Awhile back, I installed replacement wire for my input using shielded mogami quad conductive cable. RCA > Pot. Besides maybe being funny looking, is using this cable wire good or bad?
> Since I’m also replacing the output wires with the same Neotech wire, should I just go ahead and replace the mogami cable with Neotech as well?


I really like Mogami, I best leave it at that. Cable made like that is once again shielded twisted pair, it is hard to be that accurate in the twists or braid when doing it by hand, IMHO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> Not a ton of comparisons made yet, was trying to get the adapters to work in the first place, but I'm happy to see that my GEC 4079/2293s all seem to work. Don't have any clue why they come and go with regards to electrical buzzing, but they sound very nice when they do.
> 
> Oh, and this Conn-branded RCA 12au7 is nice and clear, think it's a better sound than my Mullard to my ears.


Nice coktail you have in there 😍


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Nice coktail you have in there 😍


I think I've got @bcowen 's problem without his budget...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Awhile back, I installed replacement wire for my input using shielded mogami quad conductive cable. RCA > Pot. Besides maybe being funny looking, is using this cable wire good or bad?
> Since I’m also replacing the output wires with the same Neotech wire, should I just go ahead and replace the mogami cable with Neotech as well?



As @Paladin79 said, Mogami cable is good.  I use it on the balanced outputs of my turntable.  Just make sure you ground the shield at one end to get the benefit.


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh my god the detail in "The Boxer" is simply absurd and that bass harmonica just hits you in the gut in the best possible way.


----------



## therremans

I have a variety of 16, 18 and 20 gauge Neotech for re-wiring the DV. I was told the 20 will twist best. I can leave the mogami or even add another section to the output section. PCB > Output jack





https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-79417.html


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Awhile back, I installed replacement wire for my input using shielded mogami quad conductive cable. RCA > Pot. Besides maybe being funny looking, is using this cable wire good or bad?
> Since I’m also replacing the output wires with the same Neotech wire, should I just go ahead and replace the mogami cable with Neotech as well?


I wouldn't.  I think a shielded wire is critical for the input wiring, and the Mogami is very good wire.  I planned on the Neotech for the output mostly because it's a good quality wire that I already have on hand.  If I was needing to buy some, I'd probably get a shielded wire, or at least one that was machine twisted as @Paladin79 has talked about.


----------



## DeweyCH

This is a fabulous combination. I can hear every pluck of Paul Simon's strings, the vocals are gorgeous, and the kick drum is really present and clear.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 8, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Beer on cornflakes, breakfast of champions.  I must be getting senile to have included you in that group but I was in a hurry lol  Oh and a loaner Incubus may be in your neck of the woods soon, I did not add a preamp out but maybe it will find its way to your house for a quick visit since it is a Version 2.


Guys with bit more temptation talk i will move to the US to be part of the group


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Guys i’l
> 
> Guys with bit more temptation talk i will move to the US to be part of the group





This is the loaner. leopardwood and rainbow poplar. Busy day today but your tubes should ship tomorrow.


----------



## therremans

L0rdGwyn said:


> As @Paladin79 said, Mogami cable is good.  I use it on the balanced outputs of my turntable.  Just make sure you ground the shield at one end to get the benefit.


Yes, all shielding has been grounded. Is it advisable to ground shielding on both ends like I did or is that not necessary? Thanks.

I have made cables using Canare star quad and Mogami. The cable for my DT1990 used Mogami’s micro sized quad, it’s around 4mm vs the common 6mm. The Mogami build construction seemed a bit more engineered than the Canare. ie: more fancy. Partsexpress had very good prices on the Mogami cable vs other dealers.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

therremans said:


> Yes, all shielding has been grounded. Is it advisable to ground shielding on both ends like I did or is that not necessary? Thanks.
> 
> I have made cables using Canare star quad and Mogami. The cable for my DT1990 used Mogami’s micro sized quad, it’s around 4mm vs the common 6mm. The Mogami build construction seemed a bit more engineered than the Canare. ie: more fancy. Partsexpress had very good prices on the Mogami cable vs other dealers.



No, you only want to ground one end, otherwise you risk forming a ground loop.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I really like Mogami, I best leave it at that. Cable made like that is once again shielded twisted pair, it is hard to be that accurate in the twists or braid when doing it by hand, IMHO.


How does the Mogami compare with the Blue Jeans LC-1


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yes, all shielding has been grounded. Is it advisable to ground shielding on both ends like I did or is that not necessary? Thanks.
> 
> I have made cables using Canare star quad and Mogami. The cable for my DT1990 used Mogami’s micro sized quad, it’s around 4mm vs the common 6mm. The Mogami build construction seemed a bit more engineered than the Canare. ie: more fancy. Partsexpress had very good prices on the Mogami cable vs other dealers.


I really like Canare for some applications but I do not use much of it inside amps. I ran some of their 14-4 inside walls in my hope for speaker wire. Combine two 14 awg and you get 11 awg, the rule of three.


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> No, you only want to ground one end, otherwise you risk forming a ground loop.


There is ground, and there is shield ground. You do not want both present, then you can form a ground loop. Sorry back to work for me now.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Guys i’l
> 
> Guys with bit more temptation talk i will move to the US to be part of the group


Well come on over.  Just don't move to Texas...the BBQ there sucks.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This is the loaner. leopardwood and rainbow poplar. Busy day today but your tubes should ship tomorrow.


tomorrow is my lucky day then with the tubes shipping and the DV arriving.
You made my day 😍😍😍


----------



## DeweyCH

That's a lot of GECs...


----------



## DeweyCH

The 5692 is definitely better sounding than this pair of L63s. Equal detail but it's got more heft in the low-end and more timbre from stuff like cellos and that bass harmonica I like so much.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well come on over.  Just don't move to Texas...the BBQ there sucks.


Important is the booze 🥃 lol


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Important is the booze 🥃 lol


If you like hoppy IPAs, Yellow Rose by Lone Pint is hard to beat in Texas.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> tomorrow is my lucky day then with the tubes shipping and the DV arriving.
> You made my day 😍😍😍


These tubes did not hum loudly like others did but maybe you will get other results lol.


----------



## Deceneu808

My 5998's crapped out again lmao. What's the deal with these. I listened to one of them for about 2 hours straight and all of a sudden bham, low volume ,distortion again. Need to resolder again. I'll really take my time this time and do them pro like


----------



## Paladin79

LOL it is a shame you are so far away or I would help.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> LOL it is a shame you are so far away or I would help.


Could be the very best thing. Might up my soldering skills.


----------



## Paladin79

I just received a grey glass GE that appears to be a Ken-Rad so my gamble worked out.😸


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> That's a lot of GECs...



Nice. It's almost more adapter than amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> If you like hoppy IPAs, Yellow Rose by Lone Pint is hard to beat in Texas.


Like Like 😁😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This is the loaner. leopardwood and rainbow poplar. Busy day today but your tubes should ship tomorrow.


The woodwork brings lots of temptation, should grease my router and start looking for wood soon 😎😎


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The woodwork brings lots of temptation, should grease my router and start looking for wood soon 😎😎


This is one of my favorites, rainbow poplar. An easy way to make sure no two amps match lol. The wood draws minerals from the earth and the colors vary drastically.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> These tubes did not hum loudly like others did but maybe you will get other results lol.


A long journey for them to hum all the way to Lebanon lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I just received a grey glass GE that appears to be a Ken-Rad so my gamble worked out.😸


Am i seeing granite used in the base or just my eyes playing tricks on me ? 🤩🤩
the more I see the deeper this rabbit hole I got myself in feels like 😃😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 8, 2021)

BTW any experience how does the Mogami cables terminated with Amphenol RCAs compares with the Blue Jeans LC-1 ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> If you like hoppy IPAs, Yellow Rose by Lone Pint is hard to beat in Texas.


my wife is Czech, drinking water is an offense...only beer 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am i seeing granite used in the base or just my eyes playing tricks on me ? 🤩🤩
> the more I see the deeper this rabbit hole I got myself in feels like 😃😃😃



That is thick copper onto which I added patina.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Which Mogami cables is best used for RCA connections in short runs from DAC to the DV (up to 3 feet):
2534, 2964, 2549 ? or none of the above lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 8, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Which Mogami cables is best used for RCA connections in short runs from DAC to the DV (up to 3 feet):
> 2534, 2964, 2549 ? or none of the above lol


I generally use 2549 and I only hook the shield wire to one of the RCA grounds, that side is my source. Oh and Amphenol does make quality connectors, I have had folks claim they could hear differences between connectors but I have a better chance of having a herd of unicorns in my back yard.

 Here is Bill's amp with a NC or Duke blue patina, I have trouble telling those two teams apart so hopefully the color is close.    I did not use 1/8 inch copper on his.


----------



## therremans

Well, I cut one end of the shielding on my input cable and it hummed, which I've never heard before. I made this connection again and the hum is gone. Does it matter which end of the shield is connected?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I generally use 2549 and I only hook the shield wire to one of the RCA grounds, that side is my source. Oh and Amphenol does make quality connectors, I have had folks claim they could hear differences between connectors but I have a better chance of having a herd of unicorns in my back yard.
> 
> Here is Bill's amp with a NC or Duke blue patina, I have trouble telling those two teams apart so hopefully the color is close.    I did not use 1/8 inch copper on his.


Yeah 2549 seems the best 👍
Granite would also be tempting and would handle heat nicely too 🙄


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> The 5692 is definitely better sounding than this pair of L63s. Equal detail but it's got more heft in the low-end and more timbre from stuff like cellos and that bass harmonica I like so much.


You're confusing the Darkvoice.  It's expecting 2 tubes, and you give it 4.


----------



## InstantSilence

Can any of the dark voice varients power a 17ohm sensitive planar? 
I have the lcd 4z and want to dabble into tube amps. 
Is this amp capable? What other do you recommend if not?


----------



## DeweyCH

InstantSilence said:


> Can any of the dark voice varients power a 17ohm sensitive planar?
> I have the lcd 4z and want to dabble into tube amps.
> Is this amp capable? What other do you recommend if not?


I don’t think any OTL amp is going to do what you want. Maybe a hybrid like the Liquid Platinum or Schiit Lyr?


----------



## HTSkywalker

InstantSilence said:


> Can any of the dark voice varients power a 17ohm sensitive planar?
> I have the lcd 4z and want to dabble into tube amps.
> Is this amp capable? What other do you recommend if not?


Give me a couple of days, I can try it with the Ananda rated at 25 Ohms. No high hopes though


----------



## bcowen

InstantSilence said:


> Can any of the dark voice varients power a 17ohm sensitive planar?
> I have the lcd 4z and want to dabble into tube amps.
> Is this amp capable? What other do you recommend if not?


No.  Not even close.  Can't drive even 35 ohm 'phones in stock form.

You're going to have to search far and wide for an OTL amp that will drive 17 ohm 'phones.  Not saying there isn't one out there, just that low impedances and OTL's are not good mates.  You might look at the Schiit Lyr 3 (or even Vali 2), but I don't have any experience to offer with what else is out there that may work well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> I don’t think any OTL amp is going to do what you want. Maybe a hybrid like the Liquid Platinum or Schiit Lyr?


The Cavalli CTH shines with Planars too and the Xduoo Ta-20 is a good contender as well


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Well, I cut one end of the shielding on my input cable and it hummed, which I've never heard before. I made this connection again and the hum is gone. Does it matter which end of the shield is connected?


When I talk about cutting one end of the shield, it means you have a separate wire that is the ground wire. If the only extra wire is attached to the shield, that is your only ground wire.  What you do not want is basically a circle, two wires going to ground on each end.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Here is Bill's amp with a NC or Duke blue patina, I have trouble telling those two teams apart so hopefully the color is close.



Sigh.  At least I can tell Hoosier red from purple.



Paladin79 said:


> I did not use 1/8 inch copper on his.


Yes, mine is 1" thick copper which totally impressed me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No.  Not even close.  Can't drive even 35 ohm 'phones in stock form.
> 
> You're going to have to search far and wide for an OTL amp that will drive 17 ohm 'phones.  Not saying there isn't one out there, just that low impedances and OTL's are not good mates.  You might look at the Schiit Lyr 3 (or even Vali 2), but I don't have any experience to offer with what else is out there that may work well.


I want to say Ripper drives some very low impedance headphones with the Incubus, but I never go below 50 ohm impedance myself, 80 up is even better.


----------



## InstantSilence

HTSkywalker said:


> The Cavalli CTH shines with Planars too and the Xduoo Ta-20 is a good contender as well


The Xduoo actually can? Which one you recommend?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  At least I can tell Hoosier red from purple.
> 
> 
> Yes, mine is 1" thick copper which totally impressed me.


Try not to drop the amp on your foot.    I once told Bill it takes two men and a small boy to lift an amp I built, he offered to be the small boy.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say Ripper drives some very low impedance headphones with the Incubus, but I never go below 50 ohm impedance myself, 80 up is even better.


Heard the Focal Elear rated @ 80 Ohms mates very well with the DV


----------



## L0rdGwyn

InstantSilence said:


> Can any of the dark voice varients power a 17ohm sensitive planar?
> I have the lcd 4z and want to dabble into tube amps.
> Is this amp capable? What other do you recommend if not?



Like @bcowen said (I am captain echo chamber today), if you want a tube amp that can do 17ohms, you would want to go with a transformer coupled amplifier or a hybrid.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> The woodwork brings lots of temptation, should grease my router and start looking for wood soon 😎😎


Lend that router to @Paladin79 when you're done.  Although the splines are supremely cool, I want dovetailed corners on my next Incubus (just to be more different).


----------



## HTSkywalker

InstantSilence said:


> The Xduoo actually can? Which one you recommend?


The Ta-20


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Lend that router to @Paladin79 when you're done.  Although the splines are supremely cool, I want dovetailed corners on my next Incubus (just to be more different).


I have a feeling you have been "more different" your whole life. No doves will be harmed in the making of my cabinets, sorry.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have a feeling you have been "more different" your whole life. No doves will be harmed in the making of my cabinets, sorry.


Yeah a "Green" amp working on solar power lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 8, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Like @bcowen said (I am captain echo chamber today), if you want a tube amp that can do 17ohms, you would want to go with a transformer coupled amplifier or a hybrid.


@bcowen  had some 13 ohm headphones as I recall, building a circuit to match those was something. Wait, now I realize I have done more for the guy than I should have lol. Bill you owe me, think Balvenie, no $2.95 scotch, no wine in boxes.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 8, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say Ripper drives some very low impedance headphones with the Incubus, but I never go below 50 ohm impedance myself, 80 up is even better.


The Incubus will drive the 35 ohm HE-4XX's and sounds quite nice at low-to-mid level volumes.  It won't get to rock levels, but for casual listening it's enjoyable. With the (stock) Darkvoice there is NO bass, and can't get above even low levels without obvious distortion. If I crank the bass control on the Loki fully clockwise I can get some bass, but it's not good bass.  Conversely, the HE-4XX's into either the Vali 2 or Lyr 3 will jam, and they aren't a bad sounding cheap 'phone with those amps. I still prefer the HD-6XX's though regardless of the amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen  had some 13 ohm headphones as I recall, building a circuit to match those was something. Wait, now I realize I have done more for the guy than I should have lol. Bill you owe me, think Balvenie, no $2.95 scotch, no wine in boxes.


Well you have a point there, won't lift a screwdriver for the boxed wines or the cheap scotch (normally used as a bonfire starter) 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen  had some 13 ohm headphones as I recall, building a circuit to match those was something. Wait, now I realize I have done more for the guy than I should have lol. Bill you owe me, think Balvenie, no $2.95 scotch, no wine in boxes.


Say no more....it's on the way.   It was $4.99, so don't ever call me a cheapskate.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  At least I can tell Hoosier red from purple.
> 
> 
> Yes, mine is 1" thick copper which totally impressed me.


You know, in Missouri the word “Hoosier” means redneck. I didn’t know that wasn’t a universal thing until I was a teen.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Say no more....it's on the way.   It was $4.99, so don't ever call me a cheapskate.


Send him some Malort.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> You know, in Missouri the word “Hoosier” means redneck. I didn’t know that wasn’t a universal thing until I was a teen.


You just moved farther down the Incubus loaner list you know....


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> You know, in Missouri the word “Hoosier” means redneck. I didn’t know that wasn’t a universal thing until I was a teen.


I don't think it's isolated to Missouri.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I don't think it's isolated to Missouri.


I will comment in PM lol, otherwise I will get in trouble.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 8, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say Ripper drives some very low impedance headphones with the Incubus, but I never go below 50 ohm impedance myself, 80 up is even better.


I drive the 35 ohm HFM Arya with Incubus and it sounds glorious!!  Valhalla 2 in low gain mode can drive it, but with high gain bass breaks-up badly at moderate volumes. It is not nearly with the authority of Incubus, however.  A stock DV would be a crap-shoot, I imagine.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I drive the 35 ohm HFM Arya with Incubus and it sounds glorious!!  Valhalla 2 in low gain mode can drive it, but not nearly with the authority of Incubus.  A stock DV would be a crap-shoot, I imagine.


I think in a crap shoot you have a chance of winning I would hope lol.


----------



## Ripper2860

Fixed it.


----------



## therremans

Okay, ferrite magnet on the headphone cable specifically.. yay or nay?


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Okay, ferrite magnet on the headphone cable specifically.. yay or nay?


I have seen plenty used but not in that application. Was that factory? If so what brand?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I drive the 35 ohm HFM Arya with Incubus and it sounds glorious!!  Valhalla 2 in low gain mode can drive it, but with high gain bass breaks-up badly at moderate volumes. It is not nearly with the authority of Incubus, however.  A stock DV would be a crap-shoot, I imagine.


Seems  the Incubus is more forgiving with low impedance planars.
Got curious about the DV crap shoot chances with the Ananda rated at 25 Ohms although the Elear is my main mate to the DV.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> The 5692 is definitely better sounding than this pair of L63s. Equal detail but it's got more heft in the low-end and more timbre from stuff like cellos and that bass harmonica I like so much.


The L63s are nice but I do have many that are more exciting. Like with any driver tube, the amp and power tube are a big factor. I remember the Mullard working very well with the L63s. Today I am running a Chatham 6AS7G with the WE 2C51.






bcowen said:


> I don't think it's isolated to Missouri.


I grew up on the border of Indiana and even lived in that state at one point. South Bend, IN. It was once a nice city but so was Gary, IN.
What matters is that I moved to Colorado.


Paladin79 said:


> I have seen plenty used but not in that application. Was that factory? If so what brand?


I added it from my supply.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> You just moved farther down the Incubus loaner list you know....


More importantly I moved out of Missouri 20 years ago


----------



## tameral

After 252+ hours of burn in I was able to get rid of the hum in the left channel with a modern Tung Sol.  With my nice new 6as7 power tube, I must say that I am deeply pleased with the sound of the darkvoice.  I look forward to switching up tubes to some nice NOS ones, but I can see why this amp has stood the test of time


----------



## jonathan c

tameral said:


> After 252+ hours of burn in I was able to get rid of the hum in the left channel with a modern Tung Sol.  With my nice new 6as7 power tube, I must say that I am deeply pleased with the sound of the darkvoice.  I look forward to switching up tubes to some nice NOS ones, but I can see why this amp has stood the test of time


It seems that the DV required the test of time...


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> More importantly I moved out of Missouri 20 years ago


You reminded me of the following:  Q.  What is the best thing to come out of Missouri?


----------



## jonathan c

A.  I-70


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have seen plenty used but not in that application. Was that factory? If so what brand?


Does that cable actually need the ferrite ring to minimise / negate RFI?


----------



## tameral (Mar 8, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> It seems that the DV required the test of time...


lol so true.  I got this thing a month ago.  Did 10 days on another tube before giving up.  Which is to say it is good to finally be listening to it


----------



## tameral

jonathan c said:


> You reminded me of the following:  Q.  What is the best thing to come out of Missouri?


Arthur Bryant's barbecue


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> You reminded me of the following:  Q.  What is the best thing to come out of Missouri?


Dry rub pork ribs and toasted ravioli


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> A.  I-70


Hardy har. Also it’s funny because it’s probably true.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Hardy har. Also it’s funny because it’s probably true.


All I had was Highway 63 coming out of Kirksville.   2-lane (at least back then) and no way to get anywhere fast.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> All I had was Highway 63 coming out of Kirksville.   2-lane (at least back then) and no way to get anywhere fast.


Kirksville? Man, I was offered a free ride to Northeast Mo State but had to turn it down because... well, because I visited Kirksville.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Kirksville? Man, I was offered a free ride to Northeast Mo State but had to turn it down because... well, because I visited Kirksville.


LOL!  Kirksville is a nice place to be _from_.


----------



## JKDJedi

resistors and wire.. .in da mail..   see if I can start a fire here soon..  (Heater MOd)


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Okay, ferrite magnet on the headphone cable specifically.. yay or nay?


I will go with: “why”


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 8, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I will go with: “why”


Looks cool? 😎


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> resistors and wire.. .in da mail..   see if I can start a fire here soon..  (Heater MOd)


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> I will go with: “why”


So you’re a no. Haha


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> So you’re a no. Haha


did a quick Google and see that most use these on USB cables connected to DAC to minimize high frequency noise "hiss" Interesting
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/13258-use-of-ferrite-core-chokes/


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> So you’re a no. Haha


I tried some of these a good while back on some AC cords and RCA interconnects. On the power cords, despite my best efforts I couldn't tell any difference regardless of the cord or positioning.  I see these built-in to a lot of SMPS cords (on the DC end), so perhaps there is some benefit with a DC signal (or maybe just SMPS-converted DC).  On the interconnects, I thought I heard some difference depending on the cable, but it was pretty minor and if anything it wasn't an improvement -- seemed to take some sparkle and air out of the treble.  A lot could be dependent on the geometry of the wire lay, and possibly the external noise level in the environment (RFI, EMI, etc).  Certainly doesn't hurt anything to try them on the HP cable though.


----------



## Ripper2860

I tried a Carter marine electric choke on my IEM cable and it made no diff at all.  It did make the cable a bit heavier and unwieldy.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I tried some of these a good while back on some AC cords and RCA interconnects. On the power cords, despite my best efforts I couldn't tell any difference regardless of the cord or positioning.  I see these built-in to a lot of SMPS cords (on the DC end), so perhaps there is some benefit with a DC signal (or maybe just SMPS-converted DC).  On the interconnects, I thought I heard some difference depending on the cable, but it was pretty minor and if anything it wasn't an improvement -- seemed to take some sparkle and air out of the treble.  A lot could be dependent on the geometry of the wire lay, and possibly the external noise level in the environment (RFI, EMI, etc).  Certainly doesn't hurt anything to try them on the HP cable though.


Any experience with the Mogami for interconnect ? any specific model ? 2534, 2964, 2549 ?
Termination maybe Eminence or Amphenol


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Say no more....it's on the way.   It was $4.99, so don't ever call me a cheapskate.


This is more like what I usually receive.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Any experience with the Mogami for interconnect ? any specific model ? 2534, 2964, 2549 ?
> Termination maybe Eminence or Amphenol


Here is the connector I generally use with things like 2549 but Amphenol is my second choice.

https://www.markertek.com/product/nf2cb-2/neutrik-nf2c-b-2-rca-professional-connector-pair

These are pretty specialized but they are specially made to maintain the ground connection as the last thing that touches when you disconnect the cable. I can hot swap with no pop, not that I do that real often, but on occasion I might.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This is more like what I usually receive.


This collection is worth lots of tubes 😍😍😍😍😍


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I tried a Carter marine electric choke on my IEM cable and it made no diff at all.  It did make the cable a bit heavier and unwieldy.


You probably installed it backwards.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> This collection is worth lots of tubes 😍😍😍😍😍


The one on the right was sold in England and one of 300 bottles produced. Oh and I received a very nice bottle of cognac from a gentleman here as well. My son's birthday is soon and I generally send him this if I cannot think of anything better.

https://flaviar.com/camus/camus-xo-...-NxfTIByOQdb_mnQJ0gbk-ORbkvwQVVYaAoXsEALw_wcB


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Here is the connector I generally use with things like 2549 but Amphenol is my second choice.
> 
> https://www.markertek.com/product/nf2cb-2/neutrik-nf2c-b-2-rca-professional-connector-pair
> 
> These are pretty specialized but they are specially made to maintain the ground connection as the last thing that touches when you disconnect the cable. I can hot swap with no pop, not that I do that real often, but on occasion I might.


Great Of course Neutrik 👍, only thought the Eminence is a higher grade from Amphenol as it is a bit more expensive.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is more like what I usually receive.



Hoarder.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 9, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> The one on the right was sold in England and one of 300 bottles produced. Oh and I received a very nice bottle of cognac from a gentleman here as well. My son's birthday is soon and I generally send him this if I cannot think of anything better.
> 
> https://flaviar.com/camus/camus-xo-...-NxfTIByOQdb_mnQJ0gbk-ORbkvwQVVYaAoXsEALw_wcB


well a nice collection you have in there, you can never go wrong with the Camus XO.
Attached are my favorites single malts as well as the James Hennessy special XO Cognac release


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and I received a very nice bottle of cognac from a gentleman here as well.



Hopefully it tickled your Cognac connoisseur palate.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Hopefully it tickled your Cognac connoisseur palate.


Well...remember Ian Dury and the Blockheads song ? drugs, rock-N-Roll and something else I forgot 😂😂😂
So booze is a solid part of our hobby 😇😇


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 9, 2021)

@bcowen sent me a 6-pack of Michelob Utra.  (with 2 beers missing, btw.)  A true testament to 'it's the thought that counts'.

I did not appreciate the thought.


----------



## therremans

I will be using these with some Neotech interconnect cable. Just have to wait until I have my other desk before I build, since the Darkvoice will be able to sit closer to my DAC.





KLEI RCA Connectors


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Hopefully it tickled your Cognac connoisseur palate.


It really was quite nice, maybe @bcowen  will learn from your example but it is highly doubtful lol.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 9, 2021)

therremans said:


> I will be using these with some Neotech interconnect cable. Just have to wait until I have my other desk before I build, since the Darkvoice will be able to sit closer to my DAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will the cable cost more than a DV?

Maybe one day I could send you a couple interconnect cables for you to compare, gratis of course. Cost under $50 with cotton mesh exterior. I have played around with plenty of IC cables.😺 Purple mesh of course.  My favorite interconnect cable was given to me as a sample and it is no longer produced. I gave several sets to my son to go with a Crack I modded for him in Black and Silver. That is silver braid on the outside with a clear jacket. I ran those and other cables past my favorite test subject, and while her answer is not printable here, she adored those cables as well. I only kept one pair for myself.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Will the cable cost more than a DV?
> 
> Maybe one day I could send you a couple interconnect cables for you to compare, gratis of course. Cost under $50 with cotton mesh exterior. I have played around with plenty of IC cables.😺 Purple mesh of course.


Interconnects are new to me and I’ve never tried higher quality, just Amazon basic quality types of cables. I look forward to making some and trying others. Those look nice. After investing in some nylon braid, I realized they sell it in cloth.. I’ll also need to buy or build some XLRs to run to my monitors at my new place.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Interconnects are new to me and I’ve never tried higher quality, just Amazon basic quality types of cables. I look forward to making some and trying others. Those look nice. After investing in some nylon braid, I realized they sell it in cloth.. I’ll also need to buy or build some XLRs to run to my monitors at my new place.


I friend sent me some rather high end interconnects that were pre-built. He was having issues plugging them into a couple of my amps. Some were intermittent so it was hard to tell what was going on. I found some wires not soldered, others with such poor solder I was shocked. They were trying to attach two rather large wires to the solder cup on an RCA connector. I can solder, and this would have been tough for me to build lol, I finally just made him all new cables with quality connectors and the problem was solved and I used the same setup I have used for large audio companies.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I tried a Carter marine electric choke on my IEM cable and it made no diff at all.  It did make the cable a bit heavier and unwieldy.


That looks like a mini internal combustion engine...😲


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> So booze is a solid part of our hobby 😇😇


Rolling hot tubes while in a Scotch glow?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Rolling hot tubes while in a Scotch glow?...


Ask @Paladin79 😁😁


----------



## Mr Trev

Anybody here get newsletters (email flyers) from Parts Connexion?
They always have listings for caps/resistors/etc. Just wondering if anything they're selling is worthwhile (I've only bought tubes and sockets from them) or if better things can be found for better prices elsewhere.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Ask @Paladin79 😁😁


I am sorry but scotch is the official drink of choice when listening to a fine music system, if you run out of scotch, then cognac. After that, fine bourbon, then craft beers, then spiced rum.  When all else fails.....arak, ouzo, pastis, raki, and sambuca.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Anybody here get newsletters (email flyers) from Parts Connexion?
> They always have listings for caps/resistors/etc. Just wondering if anything they're selling is worthwhile (I've only bought tubes and sockets from them) or if better things can be found for better prices elsewhere.


I use Parts Connexion on occasion for things like Neutrik XLR's if my other sources do not have enough in stock for a particular build. They do have decent prices for the enduser IMHO. On such things as caps, resistors, it really depends on the application and how much you are willing to spend for improvements you may or may not hear.


----------



## Ripper2860

Where does Ozarka spring water fall into the list?  I'm guessing 1/8 of the way through the Dylan's Complete Works boxed set.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Where does Ozarka spring water fall into the list?  I'm guessing 1/8 of the way through the Dylan's Complete Works boxed set.


With any music by Dylan you should be drinking this, unless you are at work and liquor is frowned upon.   

https://flaviar.com/heavens-door/he...Cr3zTPMKl7FCNGpoQURPEvOoaqW98j90aAvbxEALw_wcB


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I am sorry but scotch is the official drink of choice when listening to a fine music system, if you run out of scotch, then cognac. After that, fine bourbon, then craft beers, then spiced rum.  When all else fails.....arak, ouzo, pastis, raki, and sambuca.


Umm spiced rum...I have released the Kraken a time or two.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Umm spiced rum...I have released the Kraken a time or two.


I do like a good Cuba Libre made with Papa's Pilar.

https://vsliquor.com/products/papas...hfJecKOTb8aap9CNl3GdblLQbsBTuGlsaArpqEALw_wcB


----------



## DeweyCH

Soju and pray death finds you before the hangover does.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 9, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Anybody here get newsletters (email flyers) from Parts Connexion?
> They always have listings for caps/resistors/etc. Just wondering if anything they're selling is worthwhile (I've only bought tubes and sockets from them) or if better things can be found for better prices elsewhere.


I do.  Have bought quite a bit of stuff from them over the years.  Pricing depends on what you're buying -- some of their stuff is expensive relative to others, but other stuff isn't.  For example on the 3k 12w Mills resistors for the DV -- SonicCraft (who I usually buy Neotech wire from**) has them listed at $10.75 each.  PartsConnexion had them for $6.25.  When you need 6 in total, quite a difference. 

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/3k-ohm-mills-mra-12-p-735

https://www.partsconnexion.com/MILLS-64545.html

** TakeFive Audio is another good place for DIY parts.  Same as PartsConnexion in that their pricing varies depending on the product, and they're also on your side of the border.   I've bought a number of times from them with no problems.

https://www.takefiveaudio.com/categories/c1-diy-audio-supplies


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> With any music by Dylan you should be drinking this, unless you are at work and liquor is frowned upon.
> 
> https://flaviar.com/heavens-door/he...Cr3zTPMKl7FCNGpoQURPEvOoaqW98j90aAvbxEALw_wcB



And forget the spring water....need to just keep on drinking.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hit a .40% blood alcohol level and you'll wish you'd taken some Spring Water breaks.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hit a .40% blood alcohol level and you'll wish you'd taken some Spring Water breaks.


Or hadn't listened to Dylan.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Or hadn't listened to Dylan.


Do not be insulting Dylan, I saw him in concert just before the Covid shutdown and he could still stand, and walk, and sort of sing lol. I also saw him in concert with Paul Simon years ago and even then, people thought it was a treat that he blew one note on a harmonica lol.  He sold his catalog of songs for over $300 million so he must be doing something right.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Do not be insulting Dylan...



Crap.  Guess it's back to insulting @Ripper2860 then.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am sorry but scotch is the official drink of choice when listening to a fine music system, if you run out of scotch, then cognac. After that, fine bourbon, then craft beers, then spiced rum.  When all else fails.....arak, ouzo, pastis, raki, and sambuca.


OMG you nailed it. I agree 1000% I could not have said it any better 👌👌👌I normally don't reach much further then single malt or Cognac though. Most of the time and even with more than 2 closed doors and cans on. I still hear complaints in the morning about the music leaking and sometimes me singing loudly lol.
I believe the senses that makes us mostly joyful are the ones closer to the brain and it's sight, sound and taste. In this case the glowing tube along with music and Scotch lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 9, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> he could still stand, and walk, and sort of sing



I saw Phil Collins before COVID.  He can't stand or walk, but he can definitely still sing!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I saw Phil Collins before COVID.  He can't stand or walk, but he can definitely still sing!!


When I saw him long time ago, he was still able to beat the drums so hard 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 9, 2021)

Last concert I watched for B.B.King he was sitting most of the time and had to put his Oxygen mask on and off but was dreaming of listening to him singing The Thrill is gone


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 9, 2021)

Time for music and a fine cognac with the talk about 🥃 Cheers


----------



## Mr Trev

What no love for Colt45? C'mon @DeweyCH , we've seen your poster
mmmmm - pure malt liquor.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Time for music and a fine cognac with the talk about 🥃 Cheers


Nice glass, the thin top edge is a give away or at least it is one way to tell quality wine glasses and I bet it holds true for snifters.

14 tubes and an adapter are officially heading our way, I will PM you tracking.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Had to settle for the Cavalli CTH for tonight as the DV is still not delivered, hopefully tomorrow 🙏


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 9, 2021)

Totally, waaaay off topic, but I thought Paladin would appreciate the woodworking.


Also found a new method of wood finishing


back to your regularly scheduled program


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Totally, waaaay off topic, but I thought Paladin would appreciate the woodworking.
> 
> 
> Also found a new method of wood finishing
> ...



Wonderful thanks


----------



## qingcai

replaced output capacitors 15uf x 2 each channel, 
center tap heater power. 
led bias 6sn7, 
10uf capacitor parallel with 330uf 
removed the preamp out 1m resisters and 0.47uf capacitors


----------



## qingcai

and forget to mention, I have placed order for another 2 tube amp. appj and breeze e200,  cause the darkvoice is not nice to planar headphone (50ohm)


----------



## JKDJedi

qingcai said:


> replaced output capacitors 15uf x 2 each channel,
> center tap heater power.
> led bias 6sn7,
> 10uf capacitor parallel with 330uf
> removed the preamp out 1m resisters and 0.47uf capacitors


No twisty wires? 🤔 (Or the twisted resistors good enough?)


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2021)

qingcai said:


> and forget to mention, I have placed order for another 2 tube amp. appj and breeze e200,  cause the darkvoice is not nice to planar headphone (50ohm)


Most OTL amps aren't. Haven't heard one yet that does play well with planars.


----------



## qingcai

JKDJedi said:


> No twisty wires? 🤔 (Or the twisted resistors good enough?)


some tubes has little bit of hum almost not noticeable in later night. I think I am ok with it.


----------



## qingcai

JKDJedi said:


> Most OTL amps aren't. Haven't heard one yet that does play well with planars.


I have a monoprice spark amp drive the planar very well. but still want to see how does the SET transformer sound .


----------



## qingcai

this amp looks interesting.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

qingcai said:


> this amp looks interesting.



Sort of a strange amplifier.  Parallel 6SN7 as an output tube?  They've used negative feedback to make it work it seems, but I am still suspicious of the output impedance, and very suspicious of the quoted frequency response given the cost of the amplifier, good output transformers are not cheap.  15Hz - 100kHz?  I don't know about that lol even with negative feedback, would be interesting to measure it.  Turns ratio of the output transformer is not clear from the schematic, otherwise we could calculate.

Good news though, they center-tapped the heaters


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 10, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Most OTL amps aren't. Haven't heard one yet that does play well with planars.


Sadly the closest to tube sound for planars is a Hybrid.
Another reason to own more than 1 headphone 🤣🤣


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Sadly the closest to tube sound for planars is a Hybrid.
> Another reason to own more than 1 headphone 🤣🤣



A transformer coupled tube amplifier will drive planars no problem.  It can be done with an OTL with enough current drive.  Look at this amplifier, custom OTL with three 5998 / 6AS7G per channel, that will get the job done.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-15313711


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> A transformer coupled tube amplifier will drive planars no problem.  It can be done with an OTL with enough current drive.  Look at this amplifier, custom OTL with three 5998 / 6AS7G per channel, that will get the job done.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-15313711


Too intimidating , I'd better get an HD800S or any other cans which shines with tubes


----------



## L0rdGwyn

HTSkywalker said:


> Too intimidating , I'd better get an HD800S or any other cans which shines with tubes



Definitely the more common way to pair planars and tubes is with a transformer coupled amplifier.  If you go far enough down the tube rabbit hole, you might end up with a SET amplifier  300ohm Sennheiser pair well with OTL though, no doubt about it.


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> A transformer coupled tube amplifier will drive planars no problem.  It can be done with an OTL with enough current drive.  Look at this amplifier, custom OTL with three 5998 / 6AS7G per channel, that will get the job done.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-15313711


Yes it would but at a cost. I think if one was strapped for money it would be easier to just change your heaphones. Beautiful amp though, makes me want one but I have too much on my plate right now.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Galapac said:


> Yes it would but at a cost. I think if one was strapped for money it would be easier to just change your heaphones. Beautiful amp though, makes me want one but I have too much on my plate right now.



Yes, that particular build is definitely a cost-no-object OTL, and you'd have to have the tubes to run it, the owner has an incredible tube collection so no problem for him  for planars, you'd probably be better off getting a nice single-ended triode design for less money.

I think your DarkVoice is being delivered today @Galapac .


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> A transformer coupled tube amplifier will drive planars no problem.  It can be done with an OTL with enough current drive.  Look at this amplifier, custom OTL with three 5998 / 6AS7G per channel, that will get the job done.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-15313711


I run three different pairs of planars with my amp and can compare them on at least five other amps I own,  the Incubus does better than suspected yet 80 ohms up are more to my liking. 

Oops I own four pairs, I forgot a pair of Fostex. Otherwise I have Hifiman, Oppo, and Alpha Primes.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> I run three different pairs of planars with my amp and can compare them on at least five other amps I own,  the Incubus does better than suspected yet 80 ohms up are more to my liking.



Very nice, bet it sounds great.  I no longer own an OTL, but I will have to make one some day, I have quite a collection of OTL power tubes burning a hole in my pocket  last OTL I owned was the Glenn OTL.  I modded it to run 6J5, made some other circuit changes, then sold it once I started designing my amplifiers.  It is an SRPP output, a very nice amplifier by @2359glenn , but he has not been active on Head-Fi for some time, hoping to hear from him soon.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Very nice, bet it sounds great.  I no longer own an OTL, but I will have to make one some day, I have quite a collection of OTL power tubes burning a hole in my pocket  last OTL I owned was the Glenn OTL.  I modded it to run 6J5, made some other circuit changes, then sold it once I started designing my amplifiers.  It is an SRPP output, a very nice amplifier by @2359glenn , but he has not been active on Head-Fi for some time, hoping to hear from him soon.


I still own a Crack but sold off other OTL's other than the Incubus. Right now I am trying to keep up on requests but one day I will install a headphone jack on a SET amp of my design. Right now I need to get my wife set up to do pottery someplace other than my shop lol. Oh and I have a Cary push-pull amp I need to work on that I own. Not the best photo but it is at the bottom of my rack.

I only do wooden cabinets on my own designs, but when you buy products made by others a lot of times you have little choice. I wanted to keep the same cabinet size for the quad of VU meters, as I did with some of the medium size Schiit gear.


----------



## Deceneu808

To keep me busy until I resolder my 5998


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> To keep me busy until I resolder my 5998


one of my favorite power tubes.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> one of my favorite power tubes.


Not much different from the 5998... Just saying


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Not much different from the 5998... Just saying


I would think the gain is different and hearing a difference might well vary with the amp used. Both are indeed very good tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 10, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Definitely the more common way to pair planars and tubes is with a transformer coupled amplifier.  If you go far enough down the tube rabbit hole, you might end up with a SET amplifier  300ohm Sennheiser pair well with OTL though, no doubt about it.


Let me see first how the 80 Ohms Elear couples with the DV while I narrows the bull eye on a Sinn just in case lol.
And my friends were warning me about getting a Harley 😂😂😂 thinking that RC is already a large enough rabbit hole 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I still own a Crack but sold off other OTL's other than the Incubus. Right now I am trying to keep up on requests but one day I will install a headphone jack on a SET amp of my design. Right now I need to get my wife set up to do pottery someplace other than my shop lol. Oh and I have a Cary push-pull amp I need to work on that I own. Not the best photo but it is at the bottom of my rack.
> 
> I only do wooden cabinets on my own designs, but when you buy products made by others a lot of times you have little choice. I wanted to keep the same cabinet size for the quad of VU meters, as I did with some of the medium size Schiit gear.


Lots in your plate already 😃


----------



## Galapac

Some may call me crazy but I really enjoy the Svetlana 6N13S/6N5S for a cheap bang for the buck tube.
But overall I keep going back to the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphite plate, to me is just the most pleasing sound/detail. It is built like a Bendix without the cost.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Some may call me crazy but I really enjoy the Svetlana 6N13S/6N5S for a cheap bang for the buck tube.
> But overall I keep going back to the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphite plate, to me is just the most pleasing sound/detail. It is built like a Bendix without the cost.


No matter what, you like what you like and that is a very individual thing.

 Right now my local group is still trying to do a 6sn7 equivalent comparison but after that we could easily do one with 6080 equivalents as well. As far as four matching 6sn7's I was just offered 24  NOS Melz 1578's so matching four of those could be done I bet. The power tubes we will most likely use are a quad of Tung Sol 5998's.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Finally the DV reached my workshop for unpacking 😊😊
The yellow box in the right corner


----------



## qingcai

Summer is coming,  it's a problem for me to run a power hungry amp on computer table .


----------



## Ripper2860

An interesting transformer coupled HP amp...

http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/headphone-amplifier/


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> Summer is coming,  it's a problem for me to run a power hungry amp on computer table .


Most all of my amps are Class A, they are located in my downstairs and that stays pretty cool year round.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> To keep me busy until I resolder my 5998


You'll like that one .


----------



## JKDJedi

qingcai said:


> Summer is coming,  it's a problem for me to run a power hungry amp on computer table .


Summers here are insane .. and it's not official till it's above 100F. These Single driver-output amps aren't too bad in an air conditioned room.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> You'll like that one .


An hour in, I don't like it. I love it


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> Some may call me crazy but I really enjoy the Svetlana 6N13S/6N5S for a cheap bang for the buck tube.
> But overall I keep going back to the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphite plate, to me is just the most pleasing sound/detail. It is built like a Bendix without the cost.



Yeah the Svetlana 6N13S is an underrated tube in my opinion.  It lends to a very nice airy/soundstage at least with my drivers that I had paired with it.  Very good value too.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Never thought before that a Chinese product will make me smile like that 😊😊 even though the included power tube glass is dirty from the inside.
And Off course the Chinese manual 😍😍


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Never thought before that a Chinese product will make me smile like that 😊😊 even though the included power tube glass is dirty from the inside.
> And Off course the Chinese manual 😍😍


Wait until you get actual real tubes in there...


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Never thought before that a Chinese product will make me smile like that 😊😊 even though the included power tube glass is dirty from the inside.
> And Off course the Chinese manual 😍😍


Better tubes will be in New York this Friday. I have no idea how long shipping will take from there.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Better tubes will be in New York this Friday. I have no idea how long shipping will take from there.


Should be 2 weeks top


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Should be 2 weeks top


Not too bad at all.


----------



## HTSkywalker

well enthusiasm had the best of me and  just pulled the trigger on the credit I had with the BBQ Store and ordered this RCA tube for Power:
https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520
exactly the $50 I had plus shipping 😁😁
Hope it's a good choice ?? 🙄🙄 and a better value than the sauce


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> well enthusiasm had the best of me and  just pulled the trigger on the credit I had with the BBQ Store and ordered this RCA tube for Power:
> https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520
> exactly the $50 I had plus shipping 😁😁
> Hope it's a good choice ?? 🙄🙄 and a better value than the sauce



fine print is that they "mostly" have RCA.  you may not necessarily receive that brand. i'd try to confirm to see what they are actually sending you if possible.  otherwise, it could be an expensive random grab bag prize for something you don't necessarily want.


----------



## HTSkywalker

I better find something else to do right now away from the laptop before going rogue ordering more tubes and wait till Paladin ammo reaches me before buying any further lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> fine print is that they "mostly" have RCA.  you may not necessarily receive that brand. i'd try to confirm to see what they are actually sending you if possible.  otherwise, it could be an expensive random grab bag prize for something you don't necessarily want.


Confirmed RCA, fingers crossed though till I receive it.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Let me see first how the 80 Ohms Elear couples with the DV while I narrows the bull eye on a Sinn just in case lol.
> And my friends were warning me about getting a Harley 😂😂😂 thinking that RC is already a large enough rabbit hole 🤣🤣🤣


There's no such thing as too many rabbit holes.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 10, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Some may call me crazy but I really enjoy the Svetlana 6N13S/6N5S for a cheap bang for the buck tube.
> But overall I keep going back to the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphite plate, to me is just the most pleasing sound/detail. It is built like a Bendix without the cost.


The graphite plate ones I have are actually Bendix labeled, but may well have been built in the same factory. Those, the Chatham 6AS7G, and the TS 5998 are my most favorite...so far (but this rabbit hole is possibly bigger than the universe itself).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> An interesting transformer coupled HP amp...
> 
> http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/headphone-amplifier/


Haven't seen that name pop up in a while, but Quicksilver has been around for a _very_ long time.  And an EL84 (6BQ5) based design?  Might be seriously good sounding!


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> I better find something else to do right now away from the laptop before going rogue ordering more tubes and wait till Paladin ammo reaches me before buying any further lol





bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many rabbit holes.



Even with those stock tubes, gotta take time to enjoy the music!

Speaking of rabbit holes... @HTSkywalker after you get through those tubes...wait until you hit the world of adapters (like below).

Morning Rolling with 7N7 and Dual CV4079.   Modest value.  Soundstage and detail to spare.  When you feel the guitar plucks and piano reverb right in front of you.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Confirmed RCA, fingers crossed though till I receive it.


The RCA is a good $25 tube (IMO).  But hey, if you had store credit you might as well use it on something you can....use.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Even with those stock tubes, gotta take time to enjoy the music!
> 
> Speaking of rabbit holes... @HTSkywalker after you get through those tubes...wait until you hit the world of adapters (like below).
> 
> Morning Rolling with 7N7 and Dual CV4079.   Modest value.  Soundstage and detail to spare.  When you feel the guitar plucks and piano reverb right in front of you.


Now all you need is a 7A4 adapter so you can split the 7N7 into two tubes.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Never thought before that a Chinese product will make me smile like that 😊😊 even though the included power tube glass is dirty from the inside.
> And Off course the Chinese manual 😍😍


All of that is on the inside of the tube?!?   I have never seen a tube like that before....ever.  Yeah, some tubes can have some particles and flakes show up on the inside of the glass, but that looks like a bunch of fingerprints and industrial sludge.  Wow.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Now all you need is a 7A4 adapter so you can split the 7N7 into two tubes.


LOL.  Are they better than the 6J5s?   I was actually thinking of trying to run Type 76.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  Are they better than the 6J5s?   I was actually thinking of trying to run Type 76.


Depends on the tube, to be sure.  The Hytron 7A4's I have totally caught me off guard.  They sound better (to me) than any of the 6J5's I have, and although the presentation is different between them and the GEC L63's, they're just are as accomplished overall.  I have a pair of Tung Sol 6J5's (VT-94's) incoming from a really cool and awesome fellow HeadFi'er, so perhaps they will be stepped on by them....will have to see.


----------



## Deceneu808

I just noticed that my DV has a slight channel imbalance. Right side sounds juuuust a little bit louder than the left side. Interesting


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> Some may call me crazy but I really enjoy the Svetlana 6N13S/6N5S for a cheap bang for the buck tube.
> But overall I keep going back to the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphite plate, to me is just the most pleasing sound/detail. It is built like a Bendix without the cost.


Agreed, even my Svetlana from 1986 sounds good and unique. I also used to leave the Chatham 6080 graphite plate in the amp when I got it. It’s a balanced, do it all power tube.

Lately though, the Chatham 6AS7G is a new addition and I’ve been going with either that or the 5998 to match the driver tube I want. It’s a great versatile pair to own.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Depends on the tube, to be sure.  The Hytron 7A4's I have totally caught me off guard.  They sound better (to me) than any of the 6J5's I have, and although the presentation is different between them and the GEC L63's, they're just are as accomplished overall.  I have a pair of Tung Sol 6J5's (VT-94's) incoming from a really cool and awesome fellow HeadFi'er, so perhaps they will be stepped on by them....will have to see.


And who was it that got you into 7A4's? 

By the way I am debating buying a bunch of 1578's but they are the 1978 versions. If they were 63's I would have them on the way lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> And who was it that got you into 7A4's?
> 
> By the way I am debating buying a bunch of 1578's but they are the 1978 versions. If they were 63's I would have them on the way lol.


Hey everyone....it was @Paladin79 that got me into 7A4's.  

And who was it that got you into Melz 1578's?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hey everyone....it was @Paladin79 that got me into 7A4's.
> 
> And who was it that got you into Melz 1578's?


Why that may have been you!!! lol   Wait, are you buying tubes again?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Why that may have been you!!! lol   Wait, are you buying tubes again?


No.  I'm only reimbursing someone for a pair.  LOL!!


----------



## Deceneu808

Ok, I've swapped some tubes and it's not the tubes. What could be the cause of the channel imbalance ? The volume pot ? Time to upgrade ?


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I better find something else to do right now away from the laptop before going rogue ordering more tubes and wait till Paladin ammo reaches me before buying any further lol


I'd wait. What he's sending you is a (highly generous) good assortment of tubes.


----------



## qingcai

Deceneu808 said:


> I just noticed that my DV has a slight channel imbalance. Right side sounds juuuust a little bit louder than the left side. Interesting


switch your ears and check it again.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No.  I'm only reimbursing someone for a pair.  LOL!!


LOL I am about to test two WE 421A's, but I did not buy them, well I did but not really. lol  Two can obfuscate you know.


----------



## Deceneu808

qingcai said:


> switch your ears and check it again.


Zen CAN is ok. It's the DV


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> well enthusiasm had the best of me and  just pulled the trigger on the credit I had with the BBQ Store and ordered this RCA tube for Power:
> https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520
> exactly the $50 I had plus shipping 😁😁
> Hope it's a good choice ?? 🙄🙄 and a better value than the sauce


I use the RCA 6AS7G in a “6080” rotation for  the Woo WA3. To me, the RCA delivers clarity and heft...a no bs no frills tube...


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> To keep me busy until I resolder my 5998


Be wary of DWT (driving while tubing...); jail time will keep you from “rolling” 😲☹️.


----------



## Paladin79

An amazing tube combo, 56 Melz solid plate 1578 with a WE 421A. Also some lumber for future builds.


----------



## Galapac

Deceneu808 said:


> Ok, I've swapped some tubes and it's not the tubes. What could be the cause of the channel imbalance ? The volume pot ? Time to upgrade ?


Your ears? Seriously no joking aside one of my ears is slightly worse off than the other so my head has channel imbalance.


----------



## Deceneu808

jonathan c said:


> Be wary of DWT (driving while tubing...); jail time will keep you from “rolling” 😲☹️.


it don't count, i was parked


----------



## Deceneu808

Galapac said:


> Your ears? Seriously no joking aside one of my ears is slightly worse off than the other so my head has channel imbalance.


Seriously why do I hear a channel imbalance only on the DV ?


----------



## Galapac

Deceneu808 said:


> Seriously why do I hear a channel imbalance only on the DV ?


Check your inputs, maybe the RCA jacks?


----------



## therremans (Mar 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Seriously why do I hear a channel imbalance only on the DV ?


Do you think you always had it? I’ve read people having that issue but I think with earlier Darkvoice builds. This would be the low quality volume pot. But most pots will have worse channel tracking at low volumes and there isn’t much movement until you reach full listening volume. I didn’t notice an imbalance on my stock unit. I think you should use an alps blue 10k.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Deceneu808 said:


> Seriously why do I hear a channel imbalance only on the DV ?



Need to do as process of elimination.  Try different tubes first, one at a time.  Try swapping the inputs, does it stay the same or swap sides?  If it isn't the tubes or the inputs, then it is the amp.  The pot is the most likely culprit.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Seriously why do I hear a channel imbalance only on the DV ?


Where in the pot's rotation are you listening?  If your volume knob is oriented where 7:00 is full counterclockwise and 5:00 is full clockwise, if your desired listening level is between 7:00 and 8:30 or 9:00 you're using the pot where it likely doesn't track well.  Most (inexpensive) pots don't track between channels very well at the bottom or top limits of their travel.  Do you have some other 'phones you could try where you'd get the volume up above 10:00 without blasting your eardrums?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Even with those stock tubes, gotta take time to enjoy the music!
> 
> Speaking of rabbit holes... @HTSkywalker after you get through those tubes...wait until you hit the world of adapters (like below).
> 
> Morning Rolling with 7N7 and Dual CV4079.   Modest value.  Soundstage and detail to spare.  When you feel the guitar plucks and piano reverb right in front of you.


Already @Paladin79 did include a dual adapter in my starter pack as well a 14 round of ammunition to get me rolling in the right direction.
Meanwhile should I burn the included tubes together with the headphones plugged and for how long ? could it be done while listening or it's lengthy to do while listening and not enjoyable ?
excuse the newbie dummy questions 😑😑


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The RCA is a good $25 tube (IMO).  But hey, if you had store credit you might as well use it on something you can....use.


The BBQ sauce order idea was tempting but shipping it oversees would sound bit insane lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Now all you need is a 7A4 adapter so you can split the 7N7 into two tubes.


OK adapter added to my coming order, what else ? 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> All of that is on the inside of the tube?!?   I have never seen a tube like that before....ever.  Yeah, some tubes can have some particles and flakes show up on the inside of the glass, but that looks like a bunch of fingerprints and industrial sludge.  Wow.


yeah I first thought it's from the outside, kinda steamed rice smelling tube 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I use the RCA 6AS7G in a “6080” rotation for  the Woo WA3. To me, the RCA delivers clarity and heft...a no bs no frills tube...


Good to hear and it's not a totally wasted $50


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> An amazing tube combo, 56 Melz solid plate 1578 with a WE 421A. Also some lumber for future builds.


You are taking your carpenter skills to the next level, where on earth do you come by those nicely patterned wood stock 😍😍


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> You are taking your carpenter skills to the next level, where on earth do you come by those nicely patterned wood stock 😍😍


This is just sycamore, a tree native to Indiana. This is quarter sawn and that helps you see the pattern better. When finish is applied the patterns will really jump out.


----------



## HTSkywalker

What was planned as a 5 minutes DV test linked to my iPhone ended up an hour of listening.
Mating with Elear is very nice and while it lacks the SS attack, the warm tube sound makes up for it.
Surely too early to judge with the stock tubes not burned in yet but looks promising with better tubes.
Have a feeling my ears are in for a freaking treat with the right tubes plugged in and of course hooked to the Cambridge DAC.


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Already @Paladin79 did include a dual adapter in my starter pack as well a 14 round of ammunition to get me rolling in the right direction.
> Meanwhile should I burn the included tubes together with the headphones plugged and for how long ? could it be done while listening or it's lengthy to do while listening and not enjoyable ?
> excuse the newbie dummy questions 😑😑



The stock tubes on the DV - i mean its just a good thing to test to make sure the amp works proper.  The ones @Paladin79 sending you are probably already burned-in/settled so its not as if you need to burn those in.  Usually if you buy true NOS / unused vintage tubes, if they have some initial humming - burn in will help eliminate that, or in some cases, there are tubes that their sound characteristics will change with burn in.  I can't remember which especially with either the Melz or Fotons, you don't really hear what they are capable of after a certain amount of time - but something @Paladin79 or @bcowen can tell you if you get those russian type driver tubes - they are the experts.

Yes - burn-in/using them could be done while listening - but if your tubes have that initial hum to it, may be better to burn it in w/o your headphones until it settles to a point where you can listen. Really all depends.   Maybe others can chime in too.  The experiences do vary among us.  Personally, I don't leave headphones in - i had an incident where a tube I was burning in did take a turn for snap crackle popping sounds - putting my cans at risk, so since then, I strictly unplug, and i use a cheapy set of cans on hand to test the waters if I think the tube is questionable.  Again thats just me probably being over cautious.

No dumb questions here.  We all have to start somewhere.  Feel free to ask away.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> The stock tubes on the DV - i mean its just a good thing to test to make sure the amp works proper.  The ones @Paladin79 sending you are probably already burned-in/settled so its not as if you need to burn those in.  Usually if you buy true NOS / unused vintage tubes, if they have some initial humming - burn in will help eliminate that, or in some cases, there are tubes that their sound characteristics will change with burn in.  I can't remember which especially with either the Melz or Fotons, you don't really hear what they are capable of after a certain amount of time - but something @Paladin79 or @bcowen can tell you if you get those russian type driver tubes - they are the experts.
> 
> Yes - burn-in/using them could be done while listening - but if your tubes have that initial hum to it, may be better to burn it in w/o your headphones until it settles to a point where you can listen. Really all depends.   Maybe others can chime in too.  The experiences do vary among us.  Personally, I don't leave headphones in - i had an incident where a tube I was burning in did take a turn for snap crackle popping sounds - putting my cans at risk, so since then, I strictly unplug, and i use a cheapy set of cans on hand to test the waters if I think the tube is questionable.  Again thats just me probably being over cautious.
> 
> No dumb questions here.  We all have to start somewhere.  Feel free to ask away.


The included tubes are dead silent without any humming even at the loudest setting. Definitely the tubes sent by @Paladin79  are already burned in and will get me going.
Not sure if the amp itself needs any burn in tube though.
And one could never be too safe, will take tour advice and always test a new tube using my AKG cans before switching to the pricier cans.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Already @Paladin79 did include a dual adapter in my starter pack as well a 14 round of ammunition to get me rolling in the right direction.
> Meanwhile should I burn the included tubes together with the headphones plugged and for how long ? could it be done while listening or it's lengthy to do while listening and not enjoyable ?
> excuse the newbie dummy questions 😑😑


By all means turn it on and let it play. Listening or not, the amp itself will benefit from some break-in time, especially the capacitors.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> By all means turn it on and let it play. Listening or not, the amp itself will benefit from some break-in time, especially the capacitors.


Should i do it with the cans plugged to put some load on the output ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The included tubes are dead silent without any humming even at the loudest setting. Definitely the tubes sent by @Paladin79  are already burned in and will get me going.
> Not sure if the amp itself needs any burn in tube though.
> And one could never be too safe, will take tour advice and always test a new tube using my AKG cans before switching to the pricier cans.


Have you listened with no signal? In a very quiet room pay attention to what you hear after you put the headphones on but without music.  The tubes are indeed burnt in that I sent.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Should i do it with the cans plugged to put some load on the output ?


That would be best.  But I also agree with @Slade01 's caveat about leaving it unattended and up to its own devices with some nice 'cans.  If you have a cheapy pair you can use, that would be ideal.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That would be best.  But I also agree with @Slade01 's caveat about leaving it unattended and up to its own devices with some nice 'cans.  If you have a cheapy pair you can use, that would be ideal.


That power tube would worry me a bit so good advice indeed. You have a decent winged C on the way, it was based on RCA's design. Even on a good day I am not plugging $5k headphones and cable into a stock DV, cheaper headphones may cover some of the inherent issues.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Got another tube rolling my way from Lowtechelec, Jeff was extremely helpful and courteous. 
told him that he was referred to me by @Paladin79 .
He recommended the Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT from a pair he had. He was kind enough to break this pair for me and do some testing.
I promise not to order anymore till I get @Paladin79  goodie box. 😇
Was only setting my supply chain. 😛


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

But it's mainly for the 6sn7 anyways. Just remove the power tube and let it run without anything but the power cord.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Have you listened with no signal? In a very quiet room pay attention to what you hear after you put the headphones on but without music.  The tubes are indeed burnt in that I sent.


Am sure my DV value will sky rocket once i will plug your tubes.
Indeed i was in my workshop testing it at the loudest volume without any music on and no humming at all, probably they design and test the DV around those tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> Got another tube rolling my way from Lowtechelec, Jeff was extremely helpful and courteous.
> told him that he was referred to me by @Paladin79 .
> He recommended the Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT from a pair he had. He was kind enough to break this pair for me and do some testing.
> I promise not to order anymore till I get @Paladin79  goodie box. 😇
> Was only setting my supply chain. 😛


So is it a good tube ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Got another tube rolling my way from Lowtechelec, Jeff was extremely helpful and courteous.
> told him that he was referred to me by @Paladin79 .
> He recommended the Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT from a pair he had. He was kind enough to break this pair for me and do some testing.
> I promise not to order anymore till I get @Paladin79  goodie box. 😇
> Was only setting my supply chain. 😛


He might recall my real name but my id here means little to him I suspect lol. Your money, your choices and Sylvania is indeed a good brand.  I may have sent you one of those as well if they are two hole black plate.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure my DV value will sky rocket once i will plug your tubes.
> Indeed i was in my workshop testing it at the loudest volume without any music on and no humming at all, probably they design and test the DV around those tubes.


Or you lucked out lol, like I said mine came from Drop for $200.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Got another tube rolling my way from Lowtechelec, Jeff was extremely helpful and courteous.
> told him that he was referred to me by @Paladin79 .
> He recommended the Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT from a pair he had. He was kind enough to break this pair for me and do some testing.
> I promise not to order anymore till I get @Paladin79  goodie box. 😇
> Was only setting my supply chain. 😛


LOL!  Yes, I doubt he knows who @Paladin79 is by that identity.  You should have told him "the guy that buys all the GE tubes from you," then he'd know.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> He might recall my real name but my id here means little to him I suspect lol. Your money, your choices and Sylvania is indeed a good brand.  I may have sent you one of those as well if they are two hole black plate.


Thanks You already sent enough tubes  😃to make my OTL journey start a very pleasant one 🙏🙏


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, I doubt he knows who @Paladin79 is by that identity.  You should have told him "the guy that buys all the GE tubes from you," then he'd know.


.
Actually when I was winning our GE bet I did ask him for the best sounding GE he had, no joke lol. It is not gambling the way I play.    As I recall, the winning tube came from him, and he was listening with a Cary amp as I recall.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Or you lucked out lol, like I said mine came from Drop for $200.


Mine was $290 but was express shipped from Shenzheaudio free of charge and reached me in 7 days 👍👍
And besides I wanted the 220V version


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Mine was $290 but was express shipped from Shenzheaudio free of charge and reached me in 7 days 👍👍
> And besides I wanted the 220V version.


That could well be a factor. See when drop approaches them, they are suddenly building a large amount at once for us decadent Americans, like Bill.  

China uses 220v, Hong Kong 200v, and Taiwan 110v. They might have actually listened to yours before shipping it lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, I doubt he knows who @Paladin79 is by that identity.  You should have told him "the guy that buys all the GE tubes from you," then he'd know.


Probably as the nickname Paladin didn’t initiate any reaction from his side but regardless he was so helpful and courteous.
You should have told me about @Paladin79 GE hunting hobby 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That would be best.  But I also agree with @Slade01 's caveat about leaving it unattended and up to its own devices with some nice 'cans.  If you have a cheapy pair you can use, that would be ideal.


I have the old tank AKG K550 which exceeded its logical life span and would put it to this task. 
no living amp can do her any harm 😛


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably as the nickname Paladin didn’t initiate any reaction from his side but regardless he was so helpful and courteous.
> You should have told me about @Paladin79 GE hunting hobby 😃


I bought bunches to win a bet with Bill and in his name I sent you one of the GE's I did not use, just so you will gain experience. A bad experience but experience none the less. 

The GE tube I bought recently was made at a time when GE bought out Ken-Rad and sold some of the Ken-Rad tubes with the GE name on them. It is also a grey glass which I do not see very often in this brand. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7gt...148886?hash=item4228ab2f16:g:F6QAAOSw3~ZeI80E

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Rad-6S...762218?hash=item28a9a3966a:g:6ecAAOSwYoxgMAWD

It is also why I sent you a black glass tube that was not made by the name on the tube.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought bunches to win a bet with Bill but in his name I sent you one of the GE's I did not use, just so you will gain experience. A bad experience but experience none the less.


Not all experiences are expected to be pleasant but am sure that every tube you sent will smash the stock ones 💪💪


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 10, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> That power tube would worry me a bit so good advice indeed. You have a decent winged C on the way, it was based on RCA's design. Even on a good day I am not plugging $5k headphones and cable into a stock DV, cheaper headphones may cover some of the inherent issues.


The stock tubes will only serve for a very short period till THE tube supplies reaches me and they would be collecting dust after that😂😂
Till then they will serve the capacitors to break in


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Not all experiences are expected to be pleasant but am sure that every tube you sent will smash the stock ones 💪💪


I have not exactly listened to the stock tubes, they became toys for my cat Finnegan. I locked him out when I was testing WE 421A's today.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> .
> Actually when I was winning our GE bet I did ask him for the best sounding GE he had, no joke lol. It is not gambling the way I play.    As I recall, the winning tube came from him, and he was listening with a Cary amp as I recall.


He also insisted on testing 4 similar tubes he had before picking the one he sent me making sure of best performance


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought bunches to win a bet with Bill and in his name I sent you one of the GE's I did not use, just so you will gain experience. A bad experience but experience none the less.
> 
> The GE tube I bought recently was made at a time when GE bought out Ken-Rad and sold some of the Ken-Rad tubes with the GE name on them. It is also a grey glass which I do not see very often in this brand.
> 
> ...


I will surely closely inspect with love every single tube 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have not exactly listened to the stock tubes, they became toys for my cat Finnegan. I locked him out when I was testing WE 421A's today.


😺😺😺😺😺


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I have not exactly listened to the stock tubes, they became toys for my cat Finnegan. I locked him out when I was testing WE 421A's today.


For fear of him breaking one or for fear of him getting too close and catching fire?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> For fear of him breaking one or for fear of him getting too close and catching fire?


He has broken a few tubes lol. He likes to be in the middle of things.


----------



## qingcai (Mar 10, 2021)

final trial to make the DV deadly quiet .

1, I made a nice twist wire for the heater:





2, I tried potentiometer to make center tap to see completely remove the hum, and no luck:







3, I tried the voltage lift twice, and leave it on, the lift voltage it's about 46v (maybe not correct, I only remember is not over 50v) .





I test the hum on "GE 6sn7" "GE 6080". this combination has most hum on my DV, with this combination, I will have almost not noticeable hum. and for other tubes like   RCA, Tung-sol are fine.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> .
> Actually when I was winning our GE bet I did ask him for the best sounding GE he had, no joke lol. It is not gambling the way I play.    As I recall, the winning tube came from him, and he was listening with a Cary amp as I recall.


You fiend!!  So the deck was stacked against me.

But OTOH, the best sounding GE is still worse than the worst sounding RCA. Or Sylvania. Or Tung Sol. Or...(insert _any_ other tube brand here).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You fiend!!  So the deck was stacked against me.
> 
> But OTOH, the best sounding GE is still worse than the worst sounding RCA. Or Sylvania. Or Tung Sol. Or...(insert _any_ other tube brand here).


So you could pick one blind out of a group of eight concealed tubes????😺😺😺

Where did I put that Electro-Harmonix tube?😽


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2021)

qingcai said:


> final trial to make the DV deadly quiet .
> 
> 1, I made a nice twist wire for the heater:
> 
> ...


I've never done this and half way understand the heater mod...but...aren't those heat resistors supposed to be directly connected to the heater wires? 🤔 I'm confused now...edit..ok, studied another pic here on this thread..and yeah.."think" your good, I need to open mine up soon and study this thing for a few days.


----------



## qingcai (Mar 10, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I've never done this and half way understand the heater mod...but...aren't those heat resistors supposed to be directly connected to the heater wires? 🤔 I'm confused now...edit..ok, studied another pic here on this thread..and yeah.."think" your good, I need to open mine up soon and study this thing for a few days.


As other guy explained the stock amp ground the AC heater wire to left channel . So when there is him, you may think about change the heater ground .   There were lots of discuss in the topic, you can browse the pictures to fast locating those modifications.
the resistors evenly split the heater AC , and use the center  as a reference and ground it.   There lots of article about the heater circuit discuss , if want to understand it you’d read these , or just follow the instructions in this topic, all of them work .

this is one of the article : http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/heater.html


----------



## Galapac

Nice price on a 1959 Tung-Sol 6AS7G...free shipping to boot.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-V...008869?hash=item48fb139125:g:uzIAAOSwcMNgSWb0


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Do you think you always had it? I’ve read people having that issue but I think with earlier Darkvoice builds. This would be the low quality volume pot. But most pots will have worse channel tracking at low volumes and there isn’t much movement until you reach full listening volume. I didn’t notice an imbalance on my stock unit. I think you should use an alps blue 10k.


I'm 100% sure I didn't had it before. 


L0rdGwyn said:


> Need to do as process of elimination.  Try different tubes first, one at a time.  Try swapping the inputs, does it stay the same or swap sides?  If it isn't the tubes or the inputs, then it is the amp.  The pot is the most likely culprit.


I tried different tubes, 6SN7s & power tubes with the same result. I'll do the whole process this evening with different headphones although the same headphone sounded fine on my Zen CAN. Quick note here is that the Zen CAN is running balanced signal from the Zen DAC and the RCAs from the DAC are going to the DV so maybe those are to blame ? I'll check the Zen DAC also with another amp running unbalanced RCAs out to start from there.


bcowen said:


> Where in the pot's rotation are you listening?  If your volume knob is oriented where 7:00 is full counterclockwise and 5:00 is full clockwise, if your desired listening level is between 7:00 and 8:30 or 9:00 you're using the pot where it likely doesn't track well.  Most (inexpensive) pots don't track between channels very well at the bottom or top limits of their travel.  Do you have some other 'phones you could try where you'd get the volume up above 10:00 without blasting your eardrums?


I usually listen at about 9 o clock, maybe 10 sometimes. I'll try the Beyers as they are higher impedance so I can go full blast and see if I can hear anything.

Thanks !


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> So you could pick one blind out of a group of eight concealed tubes????😺😺😺
> 
> Where did I put that Electro-Harmonix tube?😽


This sounds like a bet 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

@bcowen vs @Paladin79


----------



## HTSkywalker

Received today the Rolls SS32 switch to mount my DAC to it and route to either of my 3 amps.
Had to disassemble it to check it internally before installing it, well solid build and looks decent with gold plated RCAs, discrete routing but not too neat soldering. Definitely much better than the Schiit SYS.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> This sounds like a bet 😃😃


It is a past bet, future bets might involve Sorbothane or maple vs other woods.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 11, 2021)

Now here comes the 1 Million $ question.🤔🤔
I have a $130 RCA cable going from the DAC to the Violectric https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005TI3YJC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I know some of you think it was idiotic to pay this much for a 1 meter RCA 😉

first scenario:
DAC--->Big Sur-->Violectric-->Rolls switch using RCA Out from the Violectric-->switch Output A : Monster THX RCA-->CTH
                                                                                                                             -->switch Output B: Monster THX RCA-->DV

Pros:   - insuring the best signal path to the Violectric amp
          - thinking that the Big Sur is making a sonic difference 😥😥😥
Cons: - Violectric will have to stay on for the signal to path (Fried Reim the Violectric owner assured me a un-altered and strong as the original DAC signal)


2nd scenario:
DAC-->Big Sur-->Rolls switch-->switch Output A: Audioquest short RCA jumper-->Violectric
                                                -->switch Output B: 3.5mm to RCA Audioquest Tower cable-->DV
                                                -->switch Output C: Monster THX RCA-->CTH

Pros:   - Violectric does not need to be on unless it's in use
Cons:  - Introducing a bottleneck between the DAC and the Violectric


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 11, 2021)

🤔

What I think is...



I need more coffee!  😏


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 11, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Now here comes the 1 Million $ question.🤔🤔
> I have a $130 RCA cable going from the DAC to the Violectric https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005TI3YJC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> I know some of you think it was idiotic to pay this much for a 1 meter RCA 😉
> first scenario:
> ...


I have only had a half cup of coffee but if indeed that $130 cable is making a difference, you are getting it into the chain early on and I like that idea. Farther down the chain only means it is trying to faithfully reproduce whatever signal goes through less expensive cables and its effects are negated.  As far as any other advice, it is your gear, swap it around and see if you can hear an audible difference, and that saves me looking up said gear when I could be drinking coffee and listening to some great tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah.  What he said...  😄


(Good morning folks!)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have only had a half cup of coffee but if indeed that $130 cable is making a difference, you are getting it into the chain early on and I like that idea. Farther down the chain only means it is trying to faithfully reproduce whatever signal goes through less expensive cables and its effects are negated.  As far as any other advice, it is your gear, swap it around and see if you can hear an audible difference, and that saves me looking up said gear when I could be drinking coffee and listening to some great tubes.


Ok then, going Mogami 2549 and Neutrik or amphenol all across the RCA connections then😎. Important is the switch position though.
I also believe that a music chain is as weak as its weakest link


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  What he said...  😄
> 
> 
> (Good morning folks!)😀


Good morning, already 16:49 around here 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 11, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have only had a half cup of coffee but if indeed that $130 cable is making a difference, you are getting it into the chain early on and I like that idea. Farther down the chain only means it is trying to faithfully reproduce whatever signal goes through less expensive cables and its effects are negated.  As far as any other advice, it is your gear, swap it around and see if you can hear an audible difference, and that saves me looking up said gear when I could be drinking coffee and listening to some great tubes.


I have somehow a strange feeling that I won't be able to identify the $130 in a blind audio test from any other cable 😜😜 but knowing it's there is comforting.
" drinking coffee and listening to some great tubes" you are teasing me 😥😥😥 cheers 🙂🙂


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen vs @Paladin79


LOL!!!!!!

Except you mistakenly posted the photo of one of my shop rags.  This is what I wear for listening:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a past bet, future bets might involve Sorbothane or maple vs other woods.


Hmmmmm.....soft wood and sorbothane versus maple and pointy things.    That might be a worthwhile bet, although I'm not sure how to do it blind.  LOL!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!!!!!!
> 
> Except you mistakenly posted the photo of one of my shop rags.  This is what I wear for listening:


😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I have somehow a strange feeling that I won't be able to identify the $130 in a blind audio test from any other cable 😜😜 but knowing it's there is comforting


LOL, the most you can hope for with a cable is that it does not degrade the signal, it cannot improve it, only faithfully reproduce what it is given. That is all I should say about one cable over another.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> 🤔
> 
> What I think is...
> 
> ...


...with Kahlua...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Probably the Monster THX RCA are not that faithful to the transferred signal, better put the switch after the Violectric and use high grade cables.
I even got the crazy idea about going out from the DV to the Mcintosch amp as a separate input and not between the pre-amp-amp loop


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Hmmmmm.....soft wood and sorbothane versus maple and pointy things.    That might be a worthwhile bet, although I'm not sure how to do it blind.  LOL!


Very nice indeed and it lines up well with your self size. I had no idea the purple heart would be such different shades of purple but over time it will turn dark brown anyway.
You can slow the process down with some UV protectant finish just on the splines.  Is your 3M tape in place?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Now here comes the 1 Million $ question.🤔🤔
> I have a $130 RCA cable going from the DAC to the Violectric https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005TI3YJC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> I know some of you think it was idiotic to pay this much for a 1 meter RCA 😉
> 
> ...



Personally, I don't think $130 is idiotic.  *This *is idiotic:


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Ok then, going Mogami 2549 and Neutrik or amphenol all across the RCA connections then😎. Important is the switch position though.
> I also believe that a music chain is as weak as its weakest link


...and if the weakest link is ones brain/ear...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice indeed and it lines up well with your self size. I had no idea the purple heart would be such different shades of purple but over time it will turn dark brown anyway.
> You can slow the process down with some UV protectant finish just on the splines.  Is your 3M tape in place?


No, I haven't attached it yet.  Will leave it off until I complete the internal modifications.  I would hate myself forever if I scratched that beautiful base up in the process.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> No, I haven't attached it yet.  Will leave it off until I complete the internal modifications.  I would hate myself forever if I scratched that beautiful base up in the process.


I want to try the Danish oil you used on some birdseye maple, it should be very sharp as well. Now I need to make something prettier but it is not going to be easy, heck Finnegan is even impressed. Just don't tell me you are replacing the Incubus with a DV lol,


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ...and if the weakest link is ones brain/ear...


In that case the below...........and booze = satisfaction guaranteed


----------



## HTSkywalker

Yeyyyyy 😍😍😍😍🎻🎹🎸🎺🎷🎁🎁🎁 @Paladin79 relief package


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeyyyyy 😍😍😍😍🎻🎹🎸🎺🎷🎁🎁🎁 @Paladin79 relief package


Ok part of the trip is done, hopefully all goes well.


----------



## Deceneu808

So it's definitely the DV. I tested with another DAC I had laying around. A Fiio K3 and with the HD660s. Now... When I plugged in the HD600 it's LESS noticeable but it's still there. I swept the pot 20 times back to back and twisted the RCAs in the back a little just to make sure no dust is there. Now it kind of went away but there is still this slight imbalance. Can anyone point me to where and what to get from EU to change the volume pot ? It's time for some mods for this thing


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Personally, I don't think $130 is idiotic.  *This *is idiotic:



....must be a bangybang cable....


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> In that case the below...........and booze = satisfaction guaranteed


...and the more the booze, the weaker becomes the weakest link...🤪....


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> But OTOH, the best sounding GE is still worse than the worst sounding RCA. Or Sylvania. Or Tung Sol. Or...(insert _any_ other tube brand here).


You’ll have to give a serious listen to the GE 5692 that will be arriving at your door today.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> You’ll have to give a serious listen to the GE 5692 that will be arriving at your door today.


Did GE actually build it?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Did GE actually build it?


If it sounds good, I'm going to have to guess no.   Not that I have anything against GE tubes, of course.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Did GE actually build it?


Yes, I think so. I may be misinformed or well informed.. based on the information I could find, GE was the builder of the 5692 and RCA was the designer.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 11, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> So it's definitely the DV. I tested with another DAC I had laying around. A Fiio K3 and with the HD660s. Now... When I plugged in the HD600 it's LESS noticeable but it's still there. I swept the pot 20 times back to back and twisted the RCAs in the back a little just to make sure no dust is there. Now it kind of went away but there is still this slight imbalance. Can anyone point me to where and what to get from EU to change the volume pot ? It's time for some mods for this thing


Sorry I can't hep with a source in the EU.  But what you want is the Alps RK27 pot.  A 20k version will help get the knob further into the rotation, and a 10k might work well too.  I put a 50k in mine and it helped a lot, although if I was going to do it again I'd probably go with a 20k.  If you get one with the knurled shaft on it, the stock DV knob should slide right on to it.  The ones with the straight shaft (un-knurled) are a little larger in diameter so need a different knob.  Be a little careful on where you order it -- there are counterfeits coming out of China that look the same, but aren't the same internally (ie: buy from a reputable seller there if possible).


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, I think so. I may be misinformed or well informed.. based on the information I could find, GE was the builder of the 5692 and RCA was the designer.



You could be right.  I have some CBS/Hytrons here that I can compare the construction to, as well as a couple Sylvania-branded 5691's.  I thought RCA and CBS/Hytron made all of these, but I could well be wrong.  Maybe GE made all of them, in which case I'd have to shove my foot in my mouth the next time I trash talk GE's.  I'll wear a pair of good tasting shoes.  LOL!


----------



## therremans (Mar 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You could be right.  I have some CBS/Hytrons here that I can compare the construction to, as well as a couple Sylvania-branded 5691's.  I thought RCA and CBS/Hytron made all of these, but I could well be wrong.  Maybe GE made all of them, in which case I'd have to shove my foot in my mouth the next time I trash talk GE's.  I'll wear a pair of good tasting shoes.  LOL!


Well if it’s true, they may be a good builder but still get no credit for being a good designer.


----------



## Galapac

So I got @L0rdGwyn 's souped up modded DV back yesterday afternoon and I spent some time last night rolling some tubes through it.
*Initial first impression are that he did a fantastic job! *
There is literally no hum unless you are in complete silence and listen very hard for what to me is negligible at best.
It didn't get too warm for me either but I didn't get the chance yet to have it on for an extended period of time.

Now for some pics of the tubes I rolled in in it below.
I used the same song " *Rock n' Roll is King*" by ELO for comparison. It has a wide range in the sound spectrum which I thought would lend itself well here with the percussion, strings, electric vox, etc.

To be fair I do have some 5998/2399 tubes but didn't roll them in this session as they were not readily available and I was just too tired after a long day at work.
What I have below is a good representation though.


*Combo 1 - WESTERN ELECTRIC 421A and SYLVANIA 6SN7GT/VT-231 2 RIVET*
My first tube roll post mod. First impression was meh. I had hopes for this combo as this is what I use in the stock DV currently hooked up to my vinyl player. I was thinking something was wrong but as you'll see it is either the combo or I have grown to like other tube combinations better over time for my likes in sound and music.







*Combo 2 - GEC CV2293 and SYLVANIA 6SN7GT/VT-231 2 RIVET*
Again it was meh for me. What was surprising me is I really enjoy the CV2293s in my other amps so I was beginning to wonder what was going on.






*Combo 3 - TUNG-SOL 6080WB and dual SYLVANIA 6J5GT*
OK, now we are getting somewhere. This pairing was sounding much better which now leads me to believe it was the VT-231 tube all along that was unsatisfactory. OK so we place that one aside for the remainder of this roll session.






*Combo 4 - TUNG-SOL 6080WB and FULL MUSIC 6SN7*
With this pairing we begin the tour of China tubes. I really liked this combo a lot. So much so that was in 2nd choice of the combo rolls. Music was the most detailed here and there was clear separation of the instruments.






*Combo 5 - SVETLANA 6N13S and SHUGUANG CV181-Z Treasure*
This ties for 2nd place with the combo above. Rich, lush sound. Pure enjoyment.






*Combo 6 - SVETLANA 6N13S and SHUGUANG CV181-Z blue*
Slightly less engaging then the previous 2, blue glass is all it has going for it. I may need to burn that tube in some more to give it a fair analysis.






*Combo 7 - SVETLANA 6N13S and PSVANE UK-6SN7*
About the same as above Shuguang CV181-Z blue. A good middle of the road tube saved by the Svetlana.







*Combo 8 - RCA 6AS7G and GE 6SN7GTA*
Coming back to America. This one is for @bcowen  Nuff' said.






*Combo 9 - RCA 6AS7G and RAYTHEON/BALDWIN 6SN7GTB*
This combo was pretty good. I need to roll the RAYTHEON/BALDWIN 6SN7GTB with some other power tubes to get more opinion on it but it was promising.






*Combo 10 -  RCA 6AS7G and PHILIPS PCC88*
This is one of two 6922 tubes in this roll session. I get more gain out of these little suckers but the Philips to me was just OK.






*Combo 11 - RCA 6AS7G and GENALEX Gold Lion E88CC*
This combo ranks number 3 for me believe it or not! Lots of power and the music just pops!
My only fear is that E88CC tube glows so bright I think it is going to melt! An enjoyable combo for me nonetheless.






*Combo 12 - RCA 6AS7G and Sylvania VT-231 smoked grey glass from 1945*
My favorite combo of the night! The VT-231 tube gets redemption in this version, possibly because it is an older tube than the one I tried in the first 2 combinations. Perhaps a nostalgic factor? Either way the music was most enjoyable with this combination





Strange combo of the night goes to this one.

*RCA 6AS7G and WESTINGHOUSE 12SN7GTA T Plate Tall Bottle Bad Boy*
The Westinghouse tube works but no glow in the Westinghouse, what is going on there?






Well that's it for now. 
If I get some time this weekend my next phase will to be to take my favorite combinations from above and use them for comparison between a stock DV and my modded DV. I am sure the @L0rdGwyn version wins hands down but it will be a nice before/after comparison to see where it's come from the depths of hell to the heavens above.

-Galapac


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> Yes, I think so. I may be misinformed or well informed.. based on the information I could find, GE was the builder of the 5692 and RCA was the designer.


I think you are right. I have one with both RCA and GE stamps on it.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Galapac said:


> The Westinghouse tube works but no glow in the Westinghouse, what is going on there?



If it is a 12SN7GTA, it is a 12V tube, whereas the DV heaters are 6V.  If it makes sound I am very surprised!


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> ...and the more the booze, the weaker becomes the weakest link...🤪....



We all know alcohol can kill brain cells, right. We also know natural selection favours the strongest. My theory is that alcohol actually kills off the weak and stupid brain cells first, making us a better species as a result.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> So I got @L0rdGwyn 's souped up modded DV back yesterday afternoon and I spent some time last night rolling some tubes through it.
> *Initial first impression are that he did a fantastic job! *
> There is literally no hum unless you are in complete silence and listen very hard for what to me is negligible at best.
> It didn't get too warm for me either but I didn't get the chance yet to have it on for an extended period of time.
> ...


Nice lineup, how did you like the SHUGUANG CV181-Z Treasure or the Psvane  UK-6SN7 ?
Which cans did you use for your testing ?


----------



## Galapac

L0rdGwyn said:


> If it is a 12SN7GTA, it is a 12V tube, whereas the DV heaters are 6V.  If it makes sound I am very surprised!


You're right! How did that get in there? Must have been tired or just seeing if y'all are paying attention...
Must have been the former...will need to check again as I didnt think I had any 12V SN7Gs...but I did get sound...


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> You're right! How did that get in there? Must have been tired or just seeing if y'all are paying attention...
> Must have been the former...will need to check again as I didnt think I had any 12V SN7Gs...but I did get sound...


LOL I was about to say please do not plug that in a certain loaner that is heading your way.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> So I got @L0rdGwyn 's souped up modded DV back yesterday afternoon and I spent some time last night rolling some tubes through it.
> *Initial first impression are that he did a fantastic job! *
> There is literally no hum unless you are in complete silence and listen very hard for what to me is negligible at best.
> It didn't get too warm for me either but I didn't get the chance yet to have it on for an extended period of time.
> ...



Awesome!  Thanks much for the listening impressions (and the nice pics).  

And the burning question:  beyond the hum issue, how does the LGDV compare to your stock DV?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> We all know alcohol can kill brain cells, right. We also know natural selection favours the strongest. My theory is that alcohol actually kills off the weak and stupid brain cells first, making us a better species as a result.


I like your theory so much I'm going with it (regardless of the obvious lack of blind A/B testing).


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> We all know alcohol can kill brain cells, right. We also know natural selection favours the strongest. My theory is that alcohol actually kills off the weak and stupid brain cells first, making us a better species as a result.


Ergo:   Think brain, drink grain.....You have thus volunteered to be the test of the hypothesis....the world is watching....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I like your theory so much I'm going with it (regardless of the obvious lack of blind A/B testing).


Do not do blind A/B testing; just A/B test until you are blind 🤓😜👹....


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> So I got @L0rdGwyn 's souped up modded DV back yesterday afternoon and I spent some time last night rolling some tubes through it.
> *Initial first impression are that he did a fantastic job! *
> There is literally no hum unless you are in complete silence and listen very hard for what to me is negligible at best.
> It didn't get too warm for me either but I didn't get the chance yet to have it on for an extended period of time.
> ...



This:  _"SVETLANA 6N13S and SHUGUANG CV181-Z Treasure" _was also a favorite combination of mine when I owned these tubes on the DV - probably the best pairing for either of these tubes.  

I'm also maybe in a similar boat as you - running the (power) dual A2293/CV4079s in the DV - I haven't found that magic yet.  They are really good but I haven't necessarily found a pairing that I would keep coming back to.  Interested to see if you find something noteworthy on that end.

Awesome pairings though - also looking forward to your comparison to stock DV!


----------



## HTSkywalker

I finally installed the DV in place and decided to re-wire and tidy all the connection forest I have around it (of course THE wife is sleeping  😆) including my 11.1 Surround system (a forest by itself 🤣) and to my surprise I found a couple of RCA cables just laying there within the forest unused after the HDMI re-wiring of all my video components  1 is a Canare cable and the other is a Sommercable Hicon which I immediately used for the DV connection, 1 IN and another Out feeding the Mcintosch amp and to my surprise the result was impressive even with the "cat toy" stock tubes. The Elear loved the DV while the Ananda did sound kind of funny but acceptable at low volume.
Now I can sleep happier lol


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You could be right.  I have some CBS/Hytrons here that I can compare the construction to, as well as a couple Sylvania-branded 5691's.  I thought RCA and CBS/Hytron made all of these, but I could well be wrong.  Maybe GE made all of them, in which case I'd have to shove my foot in my mouth the next time I trash talk GE's.  I'll wear a pair of good tasting shoes.  LOL!


At least, to my knowledge, GE did not enter the footwear market....or did it?...nom de shoe?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I finally installed the DV in place and decided to re-wire and tidy all the connection forest I have around it (of course THE wife is sleeping  😆) including my 11.1 Surround system (a forest by itself 🤣) and to my surprise I found a couple of RCA cables just laying there within the forest unused after the HDMI re-wiring of all my video components  1 is a Canare cable and the other is a Sommercable Hicon which I immediately used for the DV connection, 1 IN and another Out feeding the Mcintosch amp and to my surprise the result was impressive even with the "cat toy" stock tubes. The Elear loved the DV while the Ananda did sound kind of funny but acceptable at low volume.
> Now I can sleep happier lol


‘Sleep happier’ because you did not have to buy any of the @Slade01 ‘bangybang’ cable first pointed out by @bcowen...?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least, to my knowledge, GE did not enter the footwear market....or did it?...nom de shoe?


If they had, they would have been penny loafers to keep the accountants happy.  

This from Upscale Audio.  Not that it's definitive, but Kevin Deal is one of the more knowledgeable ones out there...





https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692


----------



## bcowen (Mar 11, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> ‘Sleep happier’ because you did not have to buy any of the @Slade01 ‘bangybang’ cable first pointed out by @bcowen...?


I don't know how you _can_ sleep knowing your system might sound 1.27% better with 3 or 4 pairs of those in play.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> This from Upscale Audio.  Not that it's definitive, but Kevin Deal is one of the more knowledgeable ones out there...
> 
> 
> 
> https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692


I use the CBS/Hytron 5692 brown base tubes in Woo WA6 and WA22....my favourite of the 5692 genre....even over the RCA red base...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If they had, they would have been penny loafers to keep the accountants happy.


In keeping with labour/material cost minimisation and with the illusion of panache & quality, the GE shoe division would be called Tongue-Sole ! (😖) and would not offer 6080w(ide)...at $59.98 each...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> In keeping with labour/material cost minimisation and with the illusion of panache & quality, the GE shoe division would be called Tongue-Sole ! (😖) and would not offer 6080w(ide)...at $59.98 each...


Groan.


----------



## Galapac




----------



## Deceneu808 (Mar 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Sorry I can't hep with a source in the EU.  But what you want is the Alps RK27 pot.  A 20k version will help get the knob further into the rotation, and a 10k might work well too.  I put a 50k in mine and it helped a lot, although if I was going to do it again I'd probably go with a 20k.  If you get one with the knurled shaft on it, the stock DV knob should slide right on to it.  The ones with the straight shaft (un-knurled) are a little larger in diameter so need a different knob.  Be a little careful on where you order it -- there are counterfeits coming out of China that look the same, but aren't the same internally (ie: buy from a reputable seller there if possible).


Found it from a reputable seller in my country. What luck !

https://www.avmall.ro/detalii/potentiometru-alps-20kax2.html

I'm waiting for their call to confirm and to tell them to get me the knurled shaft variant. The display picture on their website is the un-knurled one. Either way, glad I found it easy


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I don't know how you _can_ sleep knowing your system might sound 1.27% better with 3 or 4 pairs of those in play.


1.27% is very tempting indeed  🤣🤣🤣 am very sure that "3 or 4 pairs" would lead to a quick divorce 🤣🤣🤣 or an internal sleep lol
As a sleeping aid I also came across a very tempting cheaper alternative
https://www.contrado-audio.nl/product/nordost-valhalla-2-speaker-cables-25-metre-brand-new/
Of course it's only the 2 meter cable, you can always order longer runs if you are experiencing suicidal attempts lol you only have to make sure that THE wife receive the package with the invoice included 😜😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> 1.27% is very tempting indeed  🤣🤣🤣 am very sure that "3 or 4 pairs" would lead to a quick divorce 🤣🤣🤣 or an internal sleep lol
> As a sleeping aid I also came across a very tempting cheaper alternative
> https://www.contrado-audio.nl/product/nordost-valhalla-2-speaker-cables-25-metre-brand-new/
> Of course it's only the 2 meter cable, you can always order longer runs if you are experiencing suicidal attempts lol you only have to make sure that THE wife receive the package with the invoice included 😜😜😜


LOL!  But they only have 1 in stock, so better hurry and order now.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 12, 2021)

@bcowen you're out of luck just found the 2.5 meter for you but it's out of stock currently.
It is known to kick way beyond the 1.27% sound difference of the cable you mentioned, somewhere around the 1.3814% 
and especially if your ear frequency response is 5hz-50Khz 😜😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But they only have 1 in stock, so better hurry and order now.


@bcowen RIP 🙏🙏🙏🥲🥲🥲
We will definitely attend your tubes collection garage sale lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

Morning all, I am trying to start my day but I cannot seem to get my shoes on.

I need to ship some WE 421A's to England, but I have enjoyed the listen for a couple days. I used a few of my favorite Russian and German tubes as well as a BGRP Tung Sol, Ken-Rad black glass VT 231, and even a GE grey glass.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen RIP 🙏🙏🙏🥲🥲🥲
> We will definitely attend your tubes collection garage sale lol


Garage sale?  _Garage sale?_ My tube hoard collection will go to Sotheby's.  Sheeez.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Morning all, I am trying to start my day but I cannot seem to get my shoes on.



That could probably be classified as cruel and inhumane.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That could probably be classified as cruel and inhumane.


Speaking of shoes, in case you have to eat yours, Crocs are edible. Or at least will do you know harm. I read an article on the subject a couple days ago, it was on the internet so it must be true.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Speaking of shoes, in case you have to eat yours, Crocs are edible. Or at least will do you know harm. I read an article on the subject a couple days ago, it was on the internet so it must be true.


ROFL!!!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Groan.


I know 😒


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Garage sale?  _Garage sale?_ My tube hoard collection will go to Sotheby's. Sheeez.


Smithsonian Museum: The Cowen Wing?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Morning all, I am trying to start my day but I cannot seem to get my shoes on.
> 
> I need to ship some WE 421A's to England, but I have enjoyed the listen for a couple days. I used a few of my favorite Russian and German tubes as well as a BGRP Tung Sol, Ken-Rad black glass VT 231, and even a GE grey glass.


Good morning, this should be the famous Tube cat 🙂🙂, am sure he/she have a warm tubey moan 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Garage sale?  _Garage sale?_ My tube hoard collection will go to Sotheby's. Sheeez.


Smithsonian Museum is more like it 😁😁 or even better the British Science Museum next to John Ambrose Fleming experimental tubes lol


----------



## DeweyCH

Ordered some cables and jacks from @Paladin79 ’s company last night to try and build a fancy plinth with a more beautiful and functional design for a dual turntable of mine. Was wondering if any of you woodworking people could point me at someone who sells stabilized wood in bigger cuts than pen or pistol grip sizes? I’d like to try to get a similar vibe to my stabilized Verites.

Also after that excellent tube rolling post I want to try my Sylvania 6SN7W with my RCA 6AS7. Wouldn’t have even thought of that otherwise.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Ordered some cables and jacks from @Paladin79 ’s company last night to try and build a fancy plinth with a more beautiful and functional design for a dual turntable of mine. Was wondering if any of you woodworking people could point me at someone who sells stabilized wood in bigger cuts than pen or pistol grip sizes? I’d like to try to get a similar vibe to my stabilized Verites.
> 
> Also after that excellent tube rolling post I want to try my Sylvania 6SN7W with my RCA 6AS7. Wouldn’t have even thought of that otherwise.


I have good sources for lumber, give me a good idea of size and wood type required and I will see what I can do. By stabilized do you mean kiln dried down to a low moisture content?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That could probably be classified as cruel and inhumane.


well you know what they say "curiosity kills the cat" lol


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I have good sources for lumber, give me a good idea of size and wood type required and I will see what I can do. By stabilized do you mean kiln dried down to a low moisture content?


Ideally it’s a burl of some sort stabilized with colored resin, like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154316340539

But bigger. Would probably be shooting for a couple 16x4 and a couple 13.5x4 boards.

If that doesn’t pan out I’ll probably try either a basic maple burl or some Purple Heart. Maybe that tiger looking stuff you keep showing off.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Speaking of shoes, in case you have to eat yours, Crocs are edible. Or at least will do you know harm. I read an article on the subject a couple days ago, it was on the internet so it must be true.


edible if still not worn or else deadly 🤣🤣


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Morning all, I am trying to start my day but I cannot seem to get my shoes on.
> 
> I need to ship some WE 421A's to England, but I have enjoyed the listen for a couple days. I used a few of my favorite Russian and German tubes as well as a BGRP Tung Sol, Ken-Rad black glass VT 231, and even a GE grey glass.


I miss my Stanley.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Ideally it’s a burl of some sort stabilized with colored resin, like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154316340539
> 
> But bigger. Would probably be shooting for a couple 16x4 and a couple 13.5x4 boards.
> 
> If that doesn’t pan out I’ll probably try either a basic maple burl or some Purple Heart. Maybe that tiger looking stuff you keep showing off.


I blame @bcowen, he invented tiger maple as I recall.   If I see anything like that I will let you know.  Four inches square? if not another measurement would be nice lol.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> Ideally it’s a burl of some sort stabilized with colored resin, like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154316340539
> 
> But bigger. Would probably be shooting for a couple 16x4 and a couple 13.5x4 boards.
> 
> If that doesn’t pan out I’ll probably try either a basic maple burl or some Purple Heart. Maybe that tiger looking stuff you keep showing off.


I donr think you could get them in that size without paying a fortune

From the XMF site:
_Stabilized wood is a magical entity.  The wood we used for this special run started its life as a maple tree that unfortunately acquired an infection.  After infected - trees form “scabs” called burls in order to protect the rest of the tree when this happens, which causes the grains to intertwine, in effect closing this area of the tree to the greater circulatory system.  This creates abnormally beautiful wood, but also wood that has figuring, voids, and gaps.  These burls can be seen to the naked eye, and cut off the tree while allowing the rest of the tree to grow healthily.  Once harvested though, all these voids can make the wood hard to use without stabilization.

Fortunately for us, it can then be stabilized and made into beautiful headphones!

Before the wood is machined into a headphone, the wood is cut to precise sized blocks and carefully dried to near zero percent humidity and then injected in a pressurized chamber with a special resin.  The resin, not only beautifies the wood, but solidifies any of those gaps that would otherwise crumble when being machined.  All this work to procure maple burl and stabilize the wood is a time consuming process, as it takes 6+ months from harvest to headphone, but we think the results show that’s it’s well worth the time, cost and effort!_


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I blame @bcowen, he invented tiger maple as I recall.   If I see anything like that I will let you know.  Four inches square? if not another measurement would be nice lol.


1/4" thick would do nicely.


----------



## Galapac

Tiger maple by its better known name, flame maple. I have seen it used in violins as shown on this wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_maple


----------



## Galapac

This is an absolutely beautiful guitar using the tiger maple.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> 1/4" thick would do nicely.


I have seen this done on really large slabs of wood but as far as my builds I guess I use less burled. I do work with Spalted maple but I just avoid cracks, gaps and soft areas.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Speaking of shoes, in case you have to eat yours, Crocs are edible. Or at least will do you know harm. I read an article on the subject a couple days ago, it was on the internet so it must be true.


Was it by the Gorilla Glue lady?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Smithsonian Museum is more like it 😁😁 or even better the British Science Museum next to John Ambrose Fleming experimental tubes lol


London would also do since the subway there is known as the Tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I blame @bcowen, he invented tiger maple as I recall.   If I see anything like that I will let you know.  Four inches square? if not another measurement would be nice lol.


Yes, I did.  I needed something to do after I invented the internet, so turned my attention to cross-breeding wood.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Was it by the Gorilla Glue lady?


Possibly.  Last I heard she was having problems with her shoes slipping off, so she sprayed some Gorilla Glue inside and now can't get them off.  She's suing Gorilla Glue again because the instructions don't state specifically _not_ to spray it in shoes.  You can contribute to her GoFundMe campaign if you want at MoronInStickySituation#2.com.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Possibly.  Last I heard she was having problems with her shoes slipping off, so she sprayed some Gorilla Glue inside and now can't get them off.  She's suing Gorilla Glue again because the instructions don't state specifically _not_ to spray it in shoes.  You can contribute to her GoFundMe campaign if you want at MoronInStickySituation#2.com.


MISS #2 indeed!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yes, I did.  I needed something to do after I invented the internet, so turned my attention to cross-breeding wood.


So you should be getting royalties from Bangybang tube sales as a expression of gratitude from Bb.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> So you should be getting royalties from Bangybang tube sales as a expression of gratitude from Bb.


Exactly.  That's what made it possible for me to retire early.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> 1/4" thick would do nicely.


I guess you would consider this burl but I did not fill anything in, there was no reason to. I did avoid knots and I do have some of that wood left (honey locust) but it does not have as much burl.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Was it by the Gorilla Glue lady?


lol no just a news agency as I recall.


----------



## therremans

Side story: I’m up at my brother’s medical company in Boulder, helping out with testing circuit boards for pass/fail and flashing the roms. When I helped him move in the December of 2018, he said the office space was used by an audio company and they moved next door for more space. At the time I had not heard of PS Audio but as I got more into the audiophile world, I see them pop up often and even watch some of their YouTube videos. I haven’t stopped in yet for a tour but they seem like nice guys.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Side story: I’m up at my brother’s medical company in Boulder, helping out with testing circuit boards for pass/fail and flashing the roms. When I helped him move in the December of 2018, he said the office space was used by an audio company and they moved next door for more space. At the time I had not heard of PS Audio but as I got more into the audiophile world, I see them pop up often and even watch some of their YouTube videos. I haven’t stopped in yet for a tour but they seem like nice guys.


How cool is that?  I'd definitely be banging on the door for a tour!  I used to have one of their P300 power regenerators.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I guess you would consider this burl but I did not fill anything in, there was no reason to. I did avoid knots and I do have some of that wood left (honey locust) but it does not have as much burl.


That's a very nice looking grain right there. Is that @bcowen 's DV base?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> That's a very nice looking grain right there. Is that @bcowen 's DV base?



No, mine is below.  But I like that grain too.


----------



## Ripper2860

So you had Tom make you a false bottom for your DV so you can hide your stash from your kid?  😏


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So you had Tom make you a false bottom for your DV so you can hide your stash from your kid?  😏


Damnit.  That's the _last_ time I tell you something in confidence.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> That's a very nice looking grain right there. Is that @bcowen 's DV base?


No that is my personal Incubus amp, I have right at $3,000 in parts in it but many were donated to me. It will stay in my family.


----------



## HTSkywalker

An interesting thing to know:
"The name “YouTube” is actually pretty straightforward. The “You” represents that the content is user-generated, created by individual users and not the site itself, and “Tube” is a nod toward an older original term for television."
https://interestingengineering.com/...ouTube” is,older original term for television.

So Tubes are THE origin 😁😁 Although the founders are not Old farts like us 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> So you had Tom make you a false bottom for your DV so you can hide your stash from your kid?  😏


He asked me not to drill any holes in the bottom, it is starting to make sense now.🌀


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> He asked me not to drill any holes in the bottom, it is starting to make sense now.🌀


I opted for one big hole.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I opted for one big hole.


The walnut does look good with the maple, I am building a walnut amp now so I’ll do a similar contrasting bottom.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 12, 2021)

I see dragons


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I see dragons


LOL!  At least you're not seeing dead people which would be a cause for concern.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I see dragons


From right to left the dragon morphs into people.


----------



## Ripper2860

I want whatever you two guys are drinking.  😄


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> An interesting thing to know:
> "The name “YouTube” is actually pretty straightforward. The “You” represents that the content is user-generated, created by individual users and not the site itself, and “Tube” is a nod toward an older original term for television."
> https://interestingengineering.com/youtubes-history-and-its-impact-on-the-internet#:~:text="The name “YouTube” is,older original term for television.
> 
> So Tubes are THE origin 😁😁 Although the founders are not Old farts like us 🤣🤣🤣


Heard on the steps of the Roman senate:  “Et Tube, Bcowe”


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I want whatever you two guys are drinking.  😄


I will try for a better photo, I am serious lol. Well to be honest the last one looks like a monkey from the Wizard of Oz, right after a man in a top hat.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ok.  I think I see it, but I'm not sure.  I'll report back after a couple of Tequila shots.  😏


----------



## Galapac

@Paladin79 do you do that too? I see figures in wood, tiles, clouds, etc... it’s called pareidolia. 
Just not toast, lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok.  I think I see it, but I'm not sure.  I'll report back after a couple of Tequila shots.  😏


Practice with Where's Waldo for a bit, it will come to you lol. I bet Galapac sees it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2021)

I see it.  I just needed a legit excuse for the shots. 😄


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

Galapac said:


> @Paladin79 do you do that too? I see figures in wood, tiles, clouds, etc... it’s called pareidolia.
> Just not toast, lol.


Of course, and I bet you have artistic skills as well. Look at the far left, eyes, nose, mouth chin, top hat and high collar.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I want whatever you two guys are drinking.  😄


ROFL!!  Me too.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  Me too.


I am fortunate Bill can make out tiger stripes, he will come around eventually.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, and I bet you have artistic skills as well. Look at the far left, eyes, nose, mouth chin, top hat and high collar.


OK, that's obviously Voodoo Wood.   I'm pretty sure I'm going to have nightmares now.


----------



## DeweyCH

I think I need to see some of that in person to give my opinion. Like, a plinth worth. Any less and I might lose the story.


----------



## Ripper2860

After a bit of Tequila I now see a field mouse and lion cub, as well. (Seriously).

Hold my beer.  I'm gonna drop some acid and report back...   

(Not seriously)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> After a bit of Tequila I now see a field mouse and lion cub, as well. (Seriously).
> 
> Hold my beer.  I'm gonna drop some acid and report back...
> 
> (Not seriously)


A couple more shots and you'll probably start seeing Barbies.


----------



## Ripper2860

I wish.  😒


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I think I need to see some of that in person to give my opinion. Like, a plinth worth. Any less and I might lose the story.


This one does not travel but another with Leopard spots is out and about.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> OK, that's obviously Voodoo Wood.   I'm pretty sure I'm going to have nightmares now.





bcowen said:


> OK, that's obviously Voodoo Wood.   I'm pretty sure I'm going to have nightmares now.


On the very front with a spline going through its heart is one of the aliens from Area 51, after that a face looking down, then the monkey from Wizard of Oz, then a whole crowd of people.  Ever see one of those pictures where you have to relax your eyes then look? This is more obvious lol. The alien is taller, the other figures are shown from shoulders up.  Sleep well Bill


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  I see the fellow in a top hat.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I see the fellow in a top hat.


Now Bill will have to say he sees it so as not to be left out.  Too bad I am not selling this one, the figured wood alone is entertaining lol.

I am up to eight faces and a dragon, now to see how many my wife gets or if she just rolls her eyes and turns back to her book lol

night guys.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2021)

On the full side view I saw what seemed like a WWI Doughboy.

Quite entertaining.  Creepy, but entertaining.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> On the full side view I saw what seemed like a WWI Doughboy.
> 
> Quite entertaining.  Creepy, but entertaining.


I see it, he is facing out compared to other figures in profile.

My wife saw them, wants to chop up the amp and burn it tomorrow lol.


----------



## Galapac

Here is a famous one...this one is good...






The “face of Jesus” in this photo is actually a child with a bonnet, and the hair is vegetation in the background. Anonymous Swedish photograph from the late nineteenth century.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Here is a famous one...this one is good...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I definitely see both, a very good example. It took a while to see the baby.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> On the very front with a spline going through its heart is one of the aliens from Area 51, after that a face looking down, then the monkey from Wizard of Oz, then a whole crowd of people.  Ever see one of those pictures where you have to relax your eyes then look? This is more obvious lol. The alien is taller, the other figures are shown from shoulders up.  Sleep well Bill


I'll sleep better knowing that you stabbed the alien.  Thanks for looking out for us all.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 13, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, and I bet you have artistic skills as well. Look at the far left, eyes, nose, mouth chin, top hat and high collar.


Good morning, am soo sad i missed on all the fun as i was sleeping due to time zone difference.
Am pretty sure you all sobered out by now 😊😊😊 but i just saw the Chinese clay soldiers in that piece of wood 🤩🤩 only after a morning ☕️


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 13, 2021)

Loki Mini plus will be out on March 18 for those of us who are tempted to introduce a Schiit 😜😜within there audio chain and it promises 100% transparency in passive mode as well as upgraded Alps.
In fact I thought they will be adding balanced INs and OUTs but it normally defies the balancing clean connection topology and would be considered as an aggressive act targeting the old school anti equalizer old fart audiophiles. 😂😂😂


----------



## Deceneu808 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ok so I plugged the LCD-X in the DV just out of curiosity and the channel imbalance is very noticeable. The HD660s present the same anomaly but with high impedance cans like the HD600 and the DT 880 600Ohm I can barely hear it. I'm even using the Line out from the DV to a big Marantz speaker amp in a sort of hybrid setup and there is no imbalance there whatsoever. Only cans plugged directly in the DV are problematic


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Ok so I plugged the LCD-X in the DV just out of curiosity and the channel imbalance is very noticeable. The HD660s present the same anomaly but with high impedance cans like the HD600 and the DT 880 600Ohm I can barely hear it. I'm even using the Line out from the DV to a big Marantz speaker amp in a sort of hybrid setup and there is no imbalance there whatsoever. Only cans plugged directly in the DV are problematic


The LCD X same as all planars does not mate well with OTL. 80 ohns dynamic cans is the minimum but it normally shines with 300 Ohms and up


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> The LCD X same as all planars does not mate well with OTL. 80 ohns dynamic cans is the minimum but it normally shines with 300 Ohms and up


Yes it's true but I wanted to test the channel imbalance and it seems the less resistance the headphone has, the more I notice it on the DV.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 13, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Good morning, am soo sad i missed on all the fun as i was sleeping due to time zone difference.
> Am pretty sure you all sobered out by now 😊😊😊 but i just saw the Chinese clay soldiers in that piece of wood 🤩🤩 only after a morning ☕️


lol hey I was sober as a judge.  Bill was just jealous cause he only has tiger stripes on his extension.

Amp building for me today, walnut, nothing with faces.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 13, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> lol hey I was sober as a judge.  Bill was just jealous cause he only has tiger stripes on his extension.
> 
> Amp building for me today, walnut, nothing with faces.


“I was sober as a judge” 🤔🤔
Temptation is mounting to visit the carpenter to check on some wood blocks.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes it's true but I wanted to test the channel imbalance and it seems the less resistance the headphone has, the more I notice it on the DV.


Can you change back to the stock tubes and try again, normally stock tubes shouldn’t hum.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> lol hey I was sober as a judge.  Bill was just jealous cause he only has tiger stripes on his extension.
> 
> Amp building for me today, walnut, nothing with faces.


LOL!  My tiger stripes are _beautiful_.  Plus, they won't be doing experiments on me while I sleep like your alien.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Can you change back to the stock tubes and try again, normally stock tubes shouldn’t hum.


He's getting a volume difference between the channels, not hum.


----------



## HTSkywalker

I know it’s still morning for you guys but a cheers is in order from our flying field.
(Mind the cheap scotch we use for mass drinking lol)


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I know it’s still morning for you guys but a cheers is in order from our flying field.
> (Mind the cheap scotch we use for mass drinking lol)


That looks like a pretty good breakfast to me.  I'll be right over.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  My tiger stripes are _beautiful_.  Plus, they won't be doing experiments on me while I sleep like your alien.


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diy-headphone-stand-thread.249671/page-256#post-16235652

Check out this post by Allanmarcus, these are all parts from Ikea and he built several versions. I could easily make a base to match any Incubus amp and keep parts cost down by using those items, he shows a few styles if you look at his instructions. I could easily do a tiger maple base or most any other wood and make it pretty. Even tiger maple with a purple heart stripe running through it to match the splines.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That looks like a pretty good breakfast to me.  I'll be right over.


In that case bring Tom along with you and the Balvenie 21 will be served 😊😊


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> In that case bring Tom along with you and the Balvenie 21 will be served 😊😊


Wait is that snow on the table? Can we do this when it is much warmer lol?  I know you would appreciate the Balvenie, Bill would probably be more at home with Coors light or some such lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Wait is that snow on the table? Can we do this when it is much warmer lol?  I know you would appreciate the Balvenie, Bill would probably be more at home with Coors light or some such lol.


No worries Snow started melting and it would be summer before the pandemic 😷 settles.
Balvenie on me as well as Macallan as for Bill I will fetch some Czech premium beer from my wife’s stock lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait is that snow on the table? Can we do this when it is much warmer lol?  I know you would appreciate the Balvenie, Bill would probably be more at home with Coors light or some such lol.


I don't drink.  An IV is much more efficient.


----------



## therremans

I was feeling left out with all the wood grain lately, this definitely doesn't match the quality of some posted. It's just an 8 piece!  3" maple butcher's block. I wanted a slab for my turntable and picked this up for about $70 a year ago but never finished it. (I'm not sure how much of a deal or not that was..).

Here it is with it's new Tung Oil finish. I don't really have much experience with wood finishes so applying this oil was new. I used 2-3 thicker coats and sanded it down with 400 grit paper in between. Then multiple thin coats and sanded down with about a 1200 or so grit before another thin coat was applied. I have always liked the look of maple. I like how it darkened up. I have coupling feet on the way (spikes) and plan on the turntable being isolated with it's feet.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I was feeling left out with all the wood grain lately, this definitely doesn't match the quality of some posted. It's just an 8 piece!  3" maple butcher's block. I wanted a slab for my turntable and picked this up for about $70 a year ago but never finished it. (I'm not sure how much of a deal or not that was..).
> 
> Here it is with it's new Tung Oil finish. I don't really have much experience with wood finishes so applying this oil was new. I used 2-3 thicker coats and sanded it down with 400 grit paper in between. Then multiple thin coats and sanded down with about a 1200 or so grit before another thin coat was applied. I have always liked the look of maple. I like how it darkened up. I have coupling feet on the way (spikes) and plan on the turntable being isolated with it's feet.


Sweet!  Bet that will do quite nicely under your turntable.


----------



## bcowen

Apologies for going off topic, but the DV is in surgery.    TS 5998 and some newly arrived TS 6J5G's (VT-94A)...thanks @therremans !  The leading edge transient attack (especially on drums and bass guitar notes) and delineation of individual notes is head of the class with these 6J5G's.  FYI @Mr Trev ....metalhead delight.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I was feeling left out with all the wood grain lately, this definitely doesn't match the quality of some posted. It's just an 8 piece!  3" maple butcher's block. I wanted a slab for my turntable and picked this up for about $70 a year ago but never finished it. (I'm not sure how much of a deal or not that was..).
> 
> Here it is with it's new Tung Oil finish. I don't really have much experience with wood finishes so applying this oil was new. I used 2-3 thicker coats and sanded it down with 400 grit paper in between. Then multiple thin coats and sanded down with about a 1200 or so grit before another thin coat was applied. I have always liked the look of maple. I like how it darkened up. I have coupling feet on the way (spikes) and plan on the turntable being isolated with it's feet.


Nice work, oh and in the next month I should have an Incubus loaner heading our west. It needs to go to New Mexico etc. I hope to show off a new build later today or tomorrow at the latest if all goes well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I hope to show off a new build later today or tomorrow at the latest if all goes well.



With or without aliens?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Apologies for going off topic, but the DV is in surgery.    TS 5998 and some newly arrived TS 6J5G's (VT-94A)...thanks @therremans !  The leading edge transient attack (especially on drums and bass guitar notes) and delineation of individual notes is head of the class with these 6J5G's.  FYI @Mr Trev ....metalhead delight.


Were you holding a flashlight in your teeth on that shot lol? Or maybe trying for a colorized version of film noir?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> With or without aliens?


Hush, that amp is special. I was going to make you a matching headphone stand for your tiger maple but you just blew it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Were you holding a flashlight in your teeth on that shot lol? Or maybe trying for a colorized version of film noir?


Dangit.  I was trying to be creative since I couldn't see the dragons.  Another dream dashed against the rocks.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Nice work, oh and in the next month I should have an Incubus loaner heading our west. It needs to go to New Mexico etc. I hope to show off a new build later today or tomorrow at the latest if all goes well.


I would love to give it a demo, add me to the list. I’ll have my large desk back by then and will have plenty of room.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I would love to give it a demo, add me to the list. I’ll have my large desk back by then and will have plenty of room.


Best to get some of this in advance for, you know, protection and all.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Dangit.  I was trying to be creative since I couldn't see the dragons.  Another dream dashed against the rocks.


Very nice use of light and shadow Bcowen...you are a hidden artist. Nice focal on the power button.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I was feeling left out with all the wood grain lately, this definitely doesn't match the quality of some posted. It's just an 8 piece!  3" maple butcher's block. I wanted a slab for my turntable and picked this up for about $70 a year ago but never finished it. (I'm not sure how much of a deal or not that was..).
> 
> Here it is with it's new Tung Oil finish. I don't really have much experience with wood finishes so applying this oil was new. I used 2-3 thicker coats and sanded it down with 400 grit paper in between. Then multiple thin coats and sanded down with about a 1200 or so grit before another thin coat was applied. I have always liked the look of maple. I like how it darkened up. I have coupling feet on the way (spikes) and plan on the turntable being isolated with it's feet.


Good job there


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That looks like a pretty good breakfast to me.  I'll be right over.


Better than Wheaties....breakfast for chAMPions....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Were you holding a flashlight in your teeth on that shot lol? Or maybe trying for a colorized version of film noir?


Checking to see if aliens were hiding in a secret tube stash underneath?...


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I would love to give it a demo, add me to the list. I’ll have my large desk back by then and will have plenty of room.


I promised a lady in Vermont, but it should be free after unless it gets bogged down on the east coast. I am mainly trying to send it to folks who do not need an amp or do not want to spend $1250 up, this way I may not have to build another loaner too soon, I am waiting on a transformer and tube shipment out of Russia.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Checking to see if aliens were hiding in a secret tube stash underneath?...


No, but I *did* look under the bed.  No such thing as being_ too_ careful.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Very nice use of light and shadow Bcowen...you are a hidden artist. Nice focal on the power button.



Thanks Galapac.  I'll reply to you with this one since you're nicer.     

Switched up the 5998 with a Chatham 6080 (steel plate).  Reduction in the bass whomp compared to the 5998, but is a little more lively up top.  Don't have many hours on it so need to let it cook a little.  Sounds very nice regardless.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Apologies for going off topic, but the DV is in surgery.    TS 5998 and some newly arrived TS 6J5G's (VT-94A)...thanks @therremans !  The leading edge transient attack (especially on drums and bass guitar notes) and delineation of individual notes is head of the class with these 6J5G's.  FYI @Mr Trev ....metalhead delight.


I'll make a note of those, but right now I'm kinda in a Moog headspace.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/a-bit-of-music-and-a-bit-of-fun.775356/post-15772820


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Best to get some of this in advance for, you know, protection and all.


Alien seal:


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I'll make a note of those, but right now I'm kinda in a Moog headspace.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/a-bit-of-music-and-a-bit-of-fun.775356/post-15772820


I didn't hear a single bass guitar in that.  Are you OK?


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Thanks Galapac.  I'll reply to you with this one since you're nicer.
> 
> Switched up the 5998 with a Chatham 6080 (steel plate).  Reduction in the bass whomp compared to the 5998, but is a little more lively up top.  Don't have many hours on it so need to let it cook a little.  Sounds very nice regardless.


Do you have a Tung-sol 6080WB Graphite? That might give you the bass bump. All around great tube for my ears anyway. One of my favs.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Alien seal:


Now I'm _definitely_ going to have nightmares tonight.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 13, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Do you have a Tung-sol 6080WB Graphite? That might give you the bass bump. All around great tube for my ears anyway. One of my favs.


Sure do.  I tend to take it out of rotation when I'm rolling a bunch 'cause it takes so long to fully warm up (and I have patience deficit syndrome )  The TS 6J5's played quite nicely with the Chatham 6AS7G too...listened to that last night and liked the pairing a lot.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 13, 2021)

I got to do the head to head with the double DV and it was interesting.

Modded DV has the red volume knob.
Both DVs had the same Svetlana 6N13S and Sylvanis 6SN7GTA tubes.
Headphones used were ZMF VCs and Focal Utopias.










I first hooked up with the modded DV as a preamp to the stock DV.
Bad idea as it made the stock DV louder (duh) as it was being fed from the modded DV.
I then decided to just keep switching the RCA inputs to keep it apples to apples.

My next hurdle was that I was getting some bad humming and snow sounds out of the modded DV.
I was not getting this from the stock DV.
My thought was OK, switch the tubes around, maybe that’s the cause.
Nope. Still present so I know both sets of tubes are good since they sound the same on the stock DV.

So then I switched the power cord from the stock to modded.
No hum.
I have a shielded power supply so know that is good.
I just grabbed a random power cord since I have many of them.
Hum.
I tried a second power cord.
Same thing.

So then I went and got the actual cord that came with the DV and voila! The snow and large humming was gone.

So then I compared several music pieces between both.
What is interesting is that I didn’t have any hum at all with the stock DV so it must be a good one.

With the modded DV there is some hum but only when turned way up.
I also noticed with the modded DV that the hum was more pronounced from the headphones until I plugged in the RCA jacks.
Strange but true.
Could it be the gyrator as it has no load until I plug in the RCA jacks?

The good news is that overall the modded DV is actually more powerful as I had both units volume pots maxed out and controlled the volume from my DAP So not to blow my ears out, lol.

So lastly, for **** and giggles I tried a 5692 tube in the stock DV and that was quiet too in the stock DV.
But when I put it in the modded DV....pure magic!
The sound was so much better, open and dynamic over the Sylvania 6SN7GTA tube, the humming was even reduced further with the music paused with the 5692.

So tube selection is key as well and I think I will go with the Svetlana/5692 combo and add the modded DV to my vinyl setup. I only went with the initial tubes because I had doubles of them.
Don’t count out those cheap Svetlanas, IMO they are hidden gems. I even prefer them over my WE 421A, believe it or not.

So at the end of the session both units are about the same (surprise) with the modded unit having more power with just a slight hum. Very very low, being more pronounced when there are no RCA jacks in, which is not the way it would be used anyway. The stock is actually dead quiet which for me I guess is pure luck or I just picked the right combination of tubes that worked.

I didn’t want to get into my music selection and discuss key differences because to tell you the truth, there really isn’t any, outside of more power from the modded DV and tube selection, which alters the sound on both units equally.

I was really surprised that I didn’t hear more of a difference vs. stock after all of modifications but at the end of the day I prefer the modded DV for its slower ramp up and overall power gain.

I’ll probably sell my stock DV soon so if anyone wants a proven, burned in DV let me know.


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> Checking to see if aliens were hiding in a secret tube stash underneath?...


“Tube” stash. Right. That’s what it is. Just tubes honey, don’t ask who ate all the Funions.


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> I got to do the head to head with the double DV and it was interesting.
> 
> Modded DV has the red volume knob.
> Both DVs had the same Svetlana 6N13S and Sylvanis 6SN7GTA tubes.
> ...


If you want I’d be up for modding the stock DV so you can sell it for more. No charge other than I’d ask for parts, I want to do another one but can’t justify buying another myself. I promise it’d be a better job than my own.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Sure do.  I tend to take it out of rotation when I'm rolling a bunch 'cause it takes so long to fully warm up (and I have patience deficit syndrome )  The TS 6J5's played quite nicely with the Chatham 6AS7G too...listened to that last night and liked the pairing a lot.


How do you think the TS 6J5s compare to Silvertone 6L5s?


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> If you want I’d be up for modding the stock DV so you can sell it for more. No charge other than I’d ask for parts, I want to do another one but can’t justify buying another myself. I promise it’d be a better job than my own.


Thanks for the offer but between the shipping costs back and forth and time the margin would be pretty small. A new one from drop is $200 + tax and I have seen modded ones on the bay trying to sell for $300 and not moving. Folks seem to want a new one or modded one for very cheap. I will probably sell this for like $175+shipping so it goes quick.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> How do you think the TS 6J5s compare to Silvertone 6L5s?


I don't know.  I don't have any Silvertone 6L5's.   This is what happens when you're tube poor.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Thanks for the offer but between the shipping costs back and forth and time the margin would be pretty small. A new one from drop is $200 + tax and I have seen modded ones on the bay trying to sell for $300 and not moving. Folks seem to want a new one or modded one for very cheap. I will probably sell this for like $175+shipping so it goes quick.


You should advertise it as a DV that doesn't hum and ask $400 for it for being unique.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I got to do the head to head with the double DV and it was interesting.
> 
> Modded DV has the red volume knob.
> Both DVs had the same Svetlana 6N13S and Sylvanis 6SN7GTA tubes.
> ...


You have the modded DV at a disadvantage -- it's suffering from knob envy and probably hates you.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You have the modded DV at a disadvantage -- it's suffering from knob envy and probably hates you.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Mr Trev

Galapac said:


> I got to do the head to head with the double DV and it was interesting.
> 
> Modded DV has the red volume knob.
> Both DVs had the same Svetlana 6N13S and Sylvanis 6SN7GTA tubes.
> ...


Kind of a head scratcher that there wasn't any big difference in sound, at least I would've expected one.
But since they're mostly identical sounding… hey, you got monoblocks now


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> My thoughts exactly.


I am thinking I might check the cable DV sends lol


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You should advertise it as a DV that doesn't hum ** and ask $400 for it for being unique.


** when plugged in and switched on...


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 13, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I got to do the head to head with the double DV and it was interesting.
> 
> Modded DV has the red volume knob.
> Both DVs had the same Svetlana 6N13S and Sylvanis 6SN7GTA tubes.
> ...


How many man-hours are attributed to work on this duo? They DO look good.


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> ** when plugged in and switched on...


That requires the prestige edition, starting at a mere $800


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2021)

I use similar knobs like the red one but usually stick with black or silver.

The Jack may appear crooked since it is not permanently mounted yet. I like to try to use similar sizes where possible. An amp for myself would have separate left and right volume pots.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I use similar knobs like the red one but usually stick with black or silver.
> 
> The Jack may appear crooked since it is not permanently mounted yet. I like to try to use similar sizes where possible. An amp for myself would have separate left and right volume pots.


Very clean & crisp.  Q: Does your amplifier circuit design preclude the use of balanced / XLR output sockets?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Very clean & crisp.  Q: Does your amplifier circuit design preclude the use of balanced / XLR output sockets?


At this time yes, I used to incorporate RCA pre-amp out but it was more for use if you did not have a good pre-amp or you needed a backup. Mine was decent but nothing nearly as good as a dedicated unit. I try to keep things as simple as possible and did a lot of work on the power supply design. signal path, and gain. I do not do kits, or BOMs. I have had offers for my design so the less I say publicly about the internal workings the better lol. I take pride in making each amp unique. This is my third walnut amp build so I will work on cabinet detail to make it different. The gentleman I am building this one for is an EE who could build his own, but he heard mine and wanted one. He is retired and this design probably takes him back to his early tube days of low power and efficient speakers.  I was fortunate to have been introduced to Klipsch and Dynaco early in my career and perhaps the Incubus is a bit of a throwback. One of you will hear one soon. Three or four in this thread already have one.

Some of my design will carry over into the DV so I could not get too involved in what I will do inside one of those but I have seen the schematic and mine is already built except for the actual physical work.  The case design will require some thought. I need to make it prettier than @bcowen's extension box so I may do ebony and purpleheart inlay.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> At this time yes, I used to incorporate RCA pre-amp out but it was more for use if you did not have a good pre-amp or you needed a backup. Mine was decent but nothing nearly as good as a dedicated unit. I try to keep things as simple as possible and did a lot of work on the power supply design. signal path, and gain. I do not do kits, or BOMs. I have had offers for my design so the less I say publicly about the internal workings the better lol. I take pride in making each amp unique. This is my third walnut amp build so I will work on cabinet detail to make it different. The gentleman I am building this one for is an EE who could build his own, but he heard mine and wanted one. He is retired and this design probably takes him back to his early tube days of low power and efficient speakers.  I was fortunate to have been introduced to Klipsch and Dynaco early in my career and perhaps the Incubus is a bit of a throwback. One of you will hear one soon. Three or four in this thread already have one.
> 
> Some of my design will carry over into the DV so I could not get too involved in what I will do inside one of those but I have seen the schematic and mine is already built except for the actual physical work.  The case design will require some thought. I need to make it prettier than @bcowen's extension box so I may do ebony and purpleheart inlay.



So hypothetically, if you were going to mod the DV without turning it into a completely new amp, what would you do?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> So hypothetically, if you were going to mod the DV without turning it into a completely new amp, what would you do?


LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The case design will require some thought. I need to make it prettier than @bcowen's extension box so I may do ebony and purpleheart inlay.


That's totally not fair.  But then again, even ebony won't be prettier than my Tiger maple. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder of course, but mine is better.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> So hypothetically, if you were going to mod the DV without turning it into a completely new amp, what would you do?


A functioning trouble-free DV would not be a DV


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's totally not fair.  But then again, even ebony won't be prettier than my Tiger maple. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder of course, ** but mine is better.


** but mine my eyesight is better...😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> At this time yes, I used to incorporate RCA pre-amp out but it was more for use if you did not have a good pre-amp or you needed a backup. Mine was decent but nothing nearly as good as a dedicated unit. I try to keep things as simple as possible and did a lot of work on the power supply design. signal path, and gain. I do not do kits, or BOMs. I have had offers for my design so the less I say publicly about the internal workings the better lol. I take pride in making each amp unique. This is my third walnut amp build so I will work on cabinet detail to make it different. The gentleman I am building this one for is an EE who could build his own, but he heard mine and wanted one. He is retired and this design probably takes him back to his early tube days of low power and efficient speakers.  I was fortunate to have been introduced to Klipsch and Dynaco early in my career and perhaps the Incubus is a bit of a throwback. One of you will hear one soon. Three or four in this thread already have one.
> 
> Some of my design will carry over into the DV so I could not get too involved in what I will do inside one of those but I have seen the schematic and mine is already built except for the actual physical work.  The case design will require some thought. I need to make it prettier than @bcowen's extension box so I may do ebony and purpleheart inlay.


And what exactly is left from the original DV, does it still have to carry the DV name in that case ? 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> A functioning trouble-free DV would not be a DV


Exactly 😂😂😂


----------



## Galapac

Yesterday in my comparison of the stock vs. modded Darkvoice, I mentioned an issue I had with a power cable and hum. Has anyone else ever experienced this before? You would think that a power cable would have no effect on the sound as it should not be in the signal path so what was going on here? It cannot be the power or power source because when I plugged in the original power cable the hum had diminished to almost a negligible level. Is it possible that some power cords have better shielding? Could my other cords have been picking up EMF outside of the amp from my other equipment? It was definitely a strange phenomenon I was having which may show that power cables can also have an effect on your equipment and sound, possibly more than interconnect cables.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> So hypothetically, if you were going to mod the DV without turning it into a completely new amp, what would you do?



I would use quality twisted pair, eliminate the hum, fix the pre-amp out circuit since it is there, and do quality solder work. Oh and I like Mundorf output caps myself so some silver and gold oil filled would do nicely.

What I will actually do includes what I said above but I need more room, my layout will not resemble the DV much, nor will the power supply.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> A functioning trouble-free DV would not be a DV


LOL I bought a DV to help Bill with his extension, I need to fit it to size. I would not pass it along or keep it in its current state so admittedly it may not resemble a DV much. I have already voided the warranty so as far as I'm concerned it is open season on anything I want to do. Mind you, I can repair it if anything goes south, I spent 19 years in management with an electronic repair company and it was often up to me to fix anything my 50 employees could not. I do not mind getting my hands dirty.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ** but mine my eyesight is better...😊


You missed the dual intention there.  And yes, I get that my humor is only funny to me at times.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> And what exactly is left from the original DV, does it still have to carry the DV name in that case ? 😂😂


I do not dislike the sockets or the transformer cover, and I will use the top plate.  You each have a DV with which you can do anything you wish, leave it stock, try to fix it, whatever lol. I have the same rights but in its present state I would not listen to it or plug Focal Utopias into it.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Yesterday in my comparison of the stock vs. modded Darkvoice, I mentioned an issue I had with a power cable and hum. Has anyone else ever experienced this before? You would think that a power cable would have no effect on the sound as it should not be in the signal path so what was going on here? It cannot be the power or power source because when I plugged in the original power cable the hum had diminished to almost a negligible level. Is it possible that some power cords have better shielding? Could my other cords have been picking up EMF outside of the amp from my other equipment? It was definitely a strange phenomenon I was having which may show that power cables can also have an effect on your equipment and sound, possibly more than interconnect cables.


That's possible.  Were the first power cords you tried regular manufactured cords, or perhaps boutique cords?  The manufactured cords should be shielded by default, but I've seen a number of boutique cords that weren't.  I haven't looked at the stock DV cord but would assume it's well shielded, so a lot could depend on the shielding arrangement of the other cords you tried.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 14, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Yesterday in my comparison of the stock vs. modded Darkvoice, I mentioned an issue I had with a power cable and hum. Has anyone else ever experienced this before? You would think that a power cable would have no effect on the sound as it should not be in the signal path so what was going on here? It cannot be the power or power source because when I plugged in the original power cable the hum had diminished to almost a negligible level. Is it possible that some power cords have better shielding? Could my other cords have been picking up EMF outside of the amp from my other equipment? It was definitely a strange phenomenon I was having which may show that power cables can also have an effect on your equipment and sound, possibly more than interconnect cables.


While not owning (tolerating?) a DV, I have had  minor issues with hum which were ameliorated or eliminated with the choice of power cable. The h/p/a whose performance was improved include Woo WA6 and Woo WA22; fyi the power cable in use is Morrow Audio MAP-4, not really thick and reasonably flexible. I can only surmise that the particular construction of these helped.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Yesterday in my comparison of the stock vs. modded Darkvoice, I mentioned an issue I had with a power cable and hum. Has anyone else ever experienced this before? You would think that a power cable would have no effect on the sound as it should not be in the signal path so what was going on here? It cannot be the power or power source because when I plugged in the original power cable the hum had diminished to almost a negligible level. Is it possible that some power cords have better shielding? Could my other cords have been picking up EMF outside of the amp from my other equipment? It was definitely a strange phenomenon I was having which may show that power cables can also have an effect on your equipment and sound, possibly more than interconnect cables.


If I get time I may experiment but normally I only use power cables I build and shield myself. At any given time I have in excess of 25 electronic devices or pieces of equipment going in my down stairs. I shield all cables, twisted pair is a form of shielding and I take great care doing that as well.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> in its present state I would not listen to it or plug Focal Utopias into it.


Does this mean any high priced cans due to risk of the amp or more that the DV is not worthy of cans such as the Utopias? Both?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> LOL I bought a DV to help Bill with his extension, I need to fit it to size. I would not pass it along or keep it in its current state so admittedly it may not resemble a DV much. I have already voided the warranty so as far as I'm concerned it is open season on anything I want to do. Mind you, I can repair it if anything goes south, I spent 19 years in management with an electronic repair company and it was often up to me to fix anything my 50 employees could not. I do not mind getting my hands dirty.


What can a DV warranty do? Does buying the DV void its warranty? 👹 Is a DV warranty claim met with another DV 😒?


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> That's possible.  Were the first power cords you tried regular manufactured cords, or perhaps boutique cords?  The manufactured cords should be shielded by default, but I've seen a number of boutique cords that weren't.  I haven't looked at the stock DV cord but would assume it's well shielded, so a lot could depend on the shielding arrangement of the other cords you tried.


To tell you the truth, it may have been a PC power cord or one to my arcade system as they all have the same connection. It wasn’t specific to audio so it may have been the issue. I have better 10AWG power cords for my other amps but thought I had grabbed one of the original audio power cords. Again, whatever it was, it was rectified once I used the cable that came with the DV. Just mentioning it as it could be an issue for others as well.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Does this mean any high priced cans due to risk of the amp or more that the DV is not worthy of cans such as the Utopias? Both?


I like to match equipment, when I listened to tubes for HTSkywalker I used Senn HD650's, I know what the Utopias sound like with one of my amps so it was torture to have their capabilities diminished by plugging into a DV. Especially since one third of the known good tubes I tried had excessive hum in the DV.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What can a DV warranty do? Does buying the DV void its warranty? 👹 Is a DV warranty claim met with another DV 😒?


I doubt who ever sold it would honor a warranty when they saw the paper stickers over two screw holes damaged because it had been opened but I am speculating. It could be places like Drop do not inspect them but just send them back to the manufacturer.  This is speculation on my part. Personally if I mess with something someone else built, I do not expect them to honor any warranty.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I do not dislike the sockets or the transformer cover, and I will use the top plate.  You each have a DV with which you can do anything you wish, leave it stock, try to fix it, whatever lol. I have the same rights but in its present state I would not listen to it or plug Focal Utopias into it.


The first step in losing DV designation, I think, is fixing / swapping the crooked power switch.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I would use quality twisted pair, eliminate the hum, fix the pre-amp out circuit since it is there, and do quality solder work. Oh and I like Mundorf output caps myself so some silver and gold oil filled would do nicely.
> 
> What I will actually do includes what I said above but I need more room, my layout will not resemble the DV much, nor will the power supply.


Just curious in case I decide to get one myself - although after reading your impressions maybe I shouldn't
In my case, I definitely wouldn't spend more on parts than I do for the amp - like the Kinks sang, I'm on a low budget (besides, less money on parts means more money for tubes).
Basically, I'd just like to fix the shortcomings (heaters) and upgrade some components (caps, sockets, pot.). How much of an improvement that'd make, I'm not sure…


----------



## Galapac

Mr Trev said:


> Just curious in case I decide to get one myself - although after reading your impressions maybe I shouldn't
> In my case, I definitely wouldn't spend more on parts than I do for the amp - like the Kinks sang, I'm on a low budget (besides, less money on parts means more money for tubes).
> Basically, I'd just like to fix the shortcomings (heaters) and upgrade some components (caps, sockets, pot.). How much of an improvement that'd make, I'm not sure…


From @telecaster and @L0rdGwyn as well as he did the mod on mine...


telecaster said:


> I advise for the novice to only do *the center tap mod*, as it is a huge improvement over the stock heater noise


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Just curious in case I decide to get one myself - although after reading your impressions maybe I shouldn't
> In my case, I definitely wouldn't spend more on parts than I do for the amp - like the Kinks sang, I'm on a low budget (besides, less money on parts means more money for tubes).
> Basically, I'd just like to fix the shortcomings (heaters) and upgrade some components (caps, sockets, pot.). How much of an improvement that'd make, I'm not sure…


It is always tricky with amps like the Vali 2 as well, you can easily buy a tube worth more than the value of the amp. Sometimes the DV is a person's first tube amp, or they want to get into headphone amps without spending a lot. I break even or lose money on many Incubus amps, along the way though I hope I have made a few people happy with the sound. In one case I did not feel right accepting a fairly large sum for one of them so I included $300 in tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2021)

Galapac said:


> From @telecaster and @L0rdGwyn as well as he did the mod on mine...


I have another power transformer I want to use, I do not want to use a $200 transformer on the amp though, then it would sound too much like an Incubus after all my other changes lol. I have given away seven Incubus amps and average selling price is right at $1500 so I will keep my additions to the DV under $300 or so, this way I only have a lot of my own labor in the cabinet work. Finnegan helps with that.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have another power transformer I want to use, I do not want to use a $200 transformer on the amp though, then it would sound too much like an Incubus after all my other changes lol. I have given away seven Incubus amps and average selling price is right at $1500 so I will keep my additions to the DV under $300 or so, this way I only have a lot of my own labor in the cabinet work. Finnegan helps with that.


Is Finnegan a labourer or supervisor?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Is Finnegan a labourer or supervisor?


It is more of a mutualism, he is generally where I am and he waits on me to go upstairs at night. He stands at the door and cries if I leave the house.I cannot leave a chess board set up or he gets in the game.

Back of the current amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> Yesterday in my comparison of the stock vs. modded Darkvoice, I mentioned an issue I had with a power cable and hum. Has anyone else ever experienced this before? You would think that a power cable would have no effect on the sound as it should not be in the signal path so what was going on here? It cannot be the power or power source because when I plugged in the original power cable the hum had diminished to almost a negligible level. Is it possible that some power cords have better shielding? Could my other cords have been picking up EMF outside of the amp from my other equipment? It was definitely a strange phenomenon I was having which may show that power cables can also have an effect on your equipment and sound, possibly more than interconnect cables.


But better cables is snake oil..


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It is more of a mutualism, he is generally where I am and he waits on me to go upstairs at night. He stands at the door and cries if I leave the house.I cannot leave a chess board set up or he gets in the game.
> 
> Back of the current amp.


That is looking fine at early stage! ....On the chess board, so many PAWns for Finnegan to move...😆


----------



## therremans




----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


Plus you lost an hour of sleep...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> That is looking fine at early stage! ....On the chess board, so many PAWns for Finnegan to move...😆


Finnegan would never make it in tournament play, he adjusts pieces on the board without saying j’adoube.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan would never make it in tournament play, he adjusts pieces on the board without saying j’adoube.


Maybe he thinks:  je veux prendre le roi


----------



## bcowen (Mar 14, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Is Finnegan a labourer or supervisor?


Quality Inspector.  Cats never "labor."


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Quality Inspector.  Cats never "labor."


Obviously not a GE alumnus...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I do not dislike the sockets or the transformer cover, and I will use the top plate.  You each have a DV with which you can do anything you wish, leave it stock, try to fix it, whatever lol. I have the same rights but in its present state I would not listen to it or plug Focal Utopias into it.


How does the Utopia 80 Ohms impedance affect its performance with the DV as I believe 80 Ohms maybe the minimum operational impedance the DV can perform from in a respectful way ? My Elear is doing well while the Ananda is a NO GO


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Does this mean any high priced cans due to risk of the amp or more that the DV is not worthy of cans such as the Utopias? Both?


Yeah you better elaborate there 🙄🙄🙄 as you raised our concerns, maybe I should get a Beyer 990 Premium 600 Ohms in that case.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I like to match equipment, when I listened to tubes for HTSkywalker I used Senn HD650's, I know what the Utopias sound like with one of my amps so it was torture to have their capabilities diminished by plugging into a DV. Especially since one third of the known good tubes I tried had excessive hum in the DV.


hmm Should I be concerned 🤔🤔using with the the Elear, although the Elear is considered as "children of a lesser God" compared to the Utopia but still costs Euro 1K
but most probably the batch coming my way is the no or low hum batch 😍😍😍
Still the AKG cans would take the first hums if any lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Just curious in case I decide to get one myself - although after reading your impressions maybe I shouldn't
> In my case, I definitely wouldn't spend more on parts than I do for the amp - like the Kinks sang, I'm on a low budget (besides, less money on parts means more money for tubes).
> Basically, I'd just like to fix the shortcomings (heaters) and upgrade some components (caps, sockets, pot.). How much of an improvement that'd make, I'm not sure…


Fixing THE shortcomings would be of interest to me too if there exists a known list or lists 😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> From @telecaster and @L0rdGwyn as well as he did the mod on mine...


Probably a thread should be addressing the DV recommended upgrades


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Maybe he thinks:  je veux prendre le roi


Very true, Finnegan likes to go straight to the end game. He reminds me of an X football player who played on several basketball teams with me. Generally no one seemed to  score when he was on the floor on either side until he fouled out, which was inevitable. Up to that point he just seemed to interrupt the game.  

Ok back to audio, I am helping a very nice lady in California get set up with a headphone and DAC before she moves to Hawaii. I need to start from scratch explaining headphones, headphone amps, etc. so this will be my good deed for the day.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Fixing THE shortcomings would be of interest to me too if there exists a known list or lists 😆


A _list_ of stock DV shortcomings implies finiteness...🤞...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> A _list_ of stock DV shortcomings implies finiteness...🤞...


Well said and one man's finity is not for all.


----------



## HTSkywalker

warming up my solder gun, hit me with the list 😁😁😁
Will definitely takes @Paladin79 recommendation to keep the sockets, the transformer cover as well as the top plate not to void the warranty lol 😜😜😜


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> warming up my solder gun, hit me with the list 😁😁😁
> Will definitely takes @Paladin79 recommendation to keep the sockets, the transformer cover as well as the top plate not to void the warranty lol 😜😜😜


Good luck getting it apart without taking off the bottom plate lol. That is where the warranty stickers are. I am not the best example of someone you should listen to on simple mods, I prefer to take the long way home.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Good luck getting it apart without taking off the bottom plate lol. That is where the warranty stickers are. I am not the best example of someone you should listen to on simple mods, I prefer to take the long way home.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


>





This is the song I had more in mind.    Tom Waits wrote it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This is the song I had more in mind.    Tom Waits wrote it.



Love most of Norah Jones songs 👍👍


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Love most of Norah Jones songs 👍👍


With St. Patrick's day approaching I am listening to Irish music with Finnegan laying in a chair beside me.

Today is also the Ides of March.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> With St. Patrick's day approaching I am listening to Irish music with Finnegan laying in a chair beside me.


Irish are ye? So am I. Cant wait for the boiled dinner, will be preparing it on Friday. We like it the next day, frying up the potatoes and carrots with eggs. Yum.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Irish are ye? So am I. Cant wait for the boiled dinner, will be preparing it on Friday. We like it the next day, frying up the potatoes and carrots with eggs. Yum.


My side of the family is more English/Scottish, Irish on my wife's side. I love the music though, Paul Brady, Christy Moore. One of my wife's grandfather's was born on St. Patrick's day an lived to be 104, lead the parade in Louisville at 100. My son missed it by one day, he was born the 18th.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Irish are ye? So am I. Cant wait for the boiled dinner, will be preparing it on Friday. We like it the next day, frying up the potatoes and carrots with eggs. Yum.


And a pint of Guinness 🍺🍺


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> Irish are ye? So am I. Cant wait for the boiled dinner, will be preparing it on Friday. We like it the next day, frying up the potatoes and carrots with eggs. Yum.


You want top-notch cuisine? I'm English, Scottish and German. Beer-batter-fried intestines should be the dish of the day.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> You want top-notch cuisine? I'm English, Scottish and German. Beer-batter-fried intestines should be the dish of the day.


Can I not just drink the beer instead?   I understand that corned beef is more of an American tradition, but every year except this one my employees have made wonderful reuben sandwiches. I would do virgin Margaritas for something green to drink. We were deciding last St Patrick's day who would work at home first and a lot of the decorations are still there. It is real close to being one year away from the main building for me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is the song I had more in mind.    Tom Waits wrote it.



The perfect cure for insomnia.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2021)

bcowen said:


> The perfect cure for insomnia.


Are you insulting Norah Jones, Mr. Marilyn Manson fan???? hmmm?
You should beware of the Ides of March, more than most.  

I should make a headphone rack just to show you what I am not making for you.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Are you insulting Norah Jones, Mr. Marilyn Manson fan???? hmmm?
> You should beware of the Ides of March, more than most.
> 
> I should make a headphone rack just to show you what I am not making for you.


I’m sorry are you throwing shade at Manson? We’re gonna have a problem here.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I’m sorry are you throwing shade at Manson? We’re gonna have a problem here.


only with Bill


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> You want top-notch cuisine? I'm English, Scottish and German. Beer-batter-fried intestines should be the dish of the day.


Not sure if that is top notch cuisine. Hell the Irish don’t have much cuisine at all. I have been all over that country and the best thing I had was a grilled cheese out of a pub. Seriuosly, why do you think they are all skinny?
When I think of great cuisine from Europe it would have to be France, Italy, or Spain. Germany isnt too bad either but a lot of meat. Their bread is some of the best I ever had.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> With St. Patrick's day approaching I am listening to Irish music with Finnegan laying in a chair beside me.
> 
> Today is also the Ides of March.


Shamrock collar for Finnegan?


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 15, 2021)

@Paladin79 said:
I should make a headphone rack just to show you what I am not making for you.
The Ichabod Crane model...?.....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> only with Bill


What @DeweyCH said.  So there.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What @DeweyCH said.  So there.


Ok two fans. 😠


----------



## DeweyCH

Total sidetrack but if you have never watched Manson being interviewed, he comes across as the coolest, nicest, most down to earth rock star you could ever dig up. And when his dad is part of the interview, that’s always awesome.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok two fans. 😠


And two for Jones.  Don't make me call @Mr Trev to break the tie.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Total sidetrack but if you have never watched Manson being interviewed, he comes across as the coolest, nicest, most down to earth rock star you could ever dig up. And when his dad is part of the interview, that’s always awesome.


Have you paid any attention to current events? Seriously I have tried to listen to his music and it is not for me lol.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Have you paid any attention to current events? Seriously I have tried to listen to his music and it is not for me lol.


I have not. Is he another secret piece of crap? That would be disappointing


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> And two for Jones.  Don't make me call @Mr Trev to break the tie.


I have to honest. I haven't been following this particular Manson family much since he got beat up at a Denny's in Lethbridge
btw, I totally wasn't involved


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I have to honest. I haven't been following this particular Manson family much since he got beat up at a Denny's in Lethbridge
> btw, I totally wasn't involved


Ok Mr Trev, Norah Jones or Marilyn Manson lol.  Tiebreaker time.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> I have not. Is he another secret piece of crap? That would be disappointing


So far there are a lot of allegations but I have not heard of any charges filed.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Ok Mr Trev, Norah Jones or Marilyn Manson lol.  Tiebreaker time.


First off… I'm not above taking bribes


----------



## Mr Trev

So doing a quick glance at my library, I see I have 2 albums by both. I declare the tiebreaker a tie.

I do like Norah Jones' collab. work better than her solo stuff (the album Rome by Danger Mouse and Daniele Luppi. The song Sucker off the Peeping Tom album is awesome)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> So doing a quick glance at my library, I see I have 2 albums by both. I declare the tiebreaker a tie.
> 
> I do like Norah Jones' collab. work better than her solo stuff (the album Rome by Danger Mouse and Daniele Luppi. The song Sucker off the Peeping Tom album is awesome)


Traitor.


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> So doing a quick glance at my library, I see I have 2 albums by both. I declare the tiebreaker a tie.
> 
> I do like Norah Jones' collab. work better than her solo stuff (the album Rome by Danger Mouse and Daniele Luppi. The song Sucker off the Peeping Tom album is awesome)


Rome is a fantastic album. I have it on vinyl.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> So doing a quick glance at my library, I see I have 2 albums by both. I declare the tiebreaker a tie.


Interesting methodology....have the albums been opened?...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Traitor.


Obviously you didn't read my post above this one closely enough.


----------



## Mr Trev

OK in the interest of the theory of "you know you're doing the right thing, when you piss everybody off equally"…

I find Norah Jones' solo work to be too… is "Starbuckish" a word.
As far as Marilyn Manson goes… Cradle of Filth does cartoonish shock rock waaay better


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Are you insulting Norah Jones, Mr. Marilyn Manson fan???? hmmm?
> You should beware of the Ides of March, more than most.
> 
> I should make a headphone rack just to show you what I am not making for you.


Never thought Bill as a Marilyn Manson fan. NO offense @DeweyCH  🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Not sure if that is top notch cuisine. Hell the Irish don’t have much cuisine at all. I have been all over that country and the best thing I had was a grilled cheese out of a pub. Seriuosly, why do you think they are all skinny?
> When I think of great cuisine from Europe it would have to be France, Italy, or Spain. Germany isnt too bad either but a lot of meat. Their bread is some of the best I ever had.


Well said, but for me the Guinness makes up the difference, no food needed lol. same in my Wife's country (Czech Republic) cuisine sucks but Beer kick asses as for Germany The Bavarian region have the most tasty food especially the grilled wild boar and the black bread.
You can also add Greece and Lebanon to that list, satisfaction guaranteed as well as a big belly lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Have you paid any attention to current events? Seriously I have tried to listen to his music and it is not for me lol.


Maybe the twisted Sweet Dreams


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Traitor.


I can smell a tube bribery going his way lol


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 16, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Have you paid any attention to current events? Seriously I have tried to listen to his music and it is not for me lol.


You are the Scotch guy, Manson's music goes better with heavier IV stuff lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Maybe the twisted Sweet Dreams


I have heard it once, that was enough for me but I tried.😎


----------



## Deceneu808

Ok so long story short. I couldn't find a 20K Alps pot for my DV BUT I opened it up anyway to check inside, Blew some dust. Turned the knob like 100 times back to back and then I checked my power tube socket and sure enough one was just a little off so I grab a sharp object laying around and voila the DV is back. No channel balance whatsoever. Of course this was the perfect moment to resolder my 5998's and they too work, again ! Maybe I should try and find some good quality solder but I don't know what to look for honestly. Amazon US link don't work for me but I'll try to find the best quality I can in my area. I'm running the DV in "hybrid" mode right now from Line Out in to the little Zen CAN just so I can play my new LCD-X.


----------



## DeweyCH

Deceneu808 said:


> Ok so long story short. I couldn't find a 20K Alps pot for my DV BUT I opened it up anyway to check inside, Blew some dust. Turned the knob like 100 times back to back and then I checked my power tube socket and sure enough one was just a little off so I grab a sharp object laying around and voila the DV is back. No channel balance whatsoever. Of course this was the perfect moment to resolder my 5998's and they too work, again ! Maybe I should try and find some good quality solder but I don't know what to look for honestly. Amazon US link don't work for me but I'll try to find the best quality I can in my area. I'm running the DV in "hybrid" mode right now from Line Out in to the little Zen CAN just so I can play my new LCD-X.


I use this solder and it works great for me, I have to imagine Leroy Merlin would carry it or something of similar specs. Did you take a picture of the power tube socket? The pins move around relatively freely by design, but shouldn't be to the point of touching each other.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 16, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Ok so long story short. I couldn't find a 20K Alps pot for my DV BUT I opened it up anyway to check inside, Blew some dust. Turned the knob like 100 times back to back and then I checked my power tube socket and sure enough one was just a little off so I grab a sharp object laying around and voila the DV is back. No channel balance whatsoever. Of course this was the perfect moment to resolder my 5998's and they too work, again ! Maybe I should try and find some good quality solder but I don't know what to look for honestly. Amazon US link don't work for me but I'll try to find the best quality I can in my area. I'm running the DV in "hybrid" mode right now from Line Out in to the little Zen CAN just so I can play my new LCD-X.


been using the Antex solder iron along with RS solder for so long and I like both:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Antex-Precision-Soldering-Iron/dp/B07MT5LH29

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/solder/7568904/


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> I use this solder and it works great for me, I have to imagine Leroy Merlin would carry it or something of similar specs. Did you take a picture of the power tube socket? The pins move around relatively freely by design, but shouldn't be to the point of touching each other.


I didn't take any pics but this is the best I can do lmao. One pin socket with the two contacts left and right. One was normal I guess and the other one was pushed way back in to the wall of the socket itself not "touching/hovering" in the circle area so I guess bad contact there. I had some similar problems a few weeks ago when I bought the 5998. I had to tilt it to the side just a little bit otherwise the left channel wouldn't make sound.


----------



## Deceneu808

DeweyCH said:


> I use this solder and it works great for me, I have to imagine Leroy Merlin would carry it or something of similar specs. Did you take a picture of the power tube socket? The pins move around relatively freely by design, but shouldn't be to the point of touching each other.


Interestingly enough the solder on my 5998's was dry and ugly like it's been sitting there since 1956 so I can pretty much blame the solder as far as tubes go


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Interesting methodology....have the albums been opened?...


Sadly, the majority of my music purchases have been digital downloads lately. The retail market here in Canada sucks sweaty ass (in the "city" I live in the, only place to buy CDs anymore is Walmart) and the shipping costs from the US are just way too high (not to mention the godawful exchange rate) to justify picking up just a couple albums.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> OK in the interest of the theory of "you know you're doing the right thing, when you piss everybody off equally"…
> 
> I find Norah Jones' solo work to be too… is "Starbuckish" a word.
> As far as Marilyn Manson goes… Cradle of Filth does cartoonish shock rock waaay better


What about Alice Cooper?...


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> What about Alice Cooper?...


Maybe if it was still the '70s-early '80s… 

I remember when he was on The Muppet Show. Good times.


----------



## jonathan c

I mentioned Alice Cooper since he was a pioneer in 1970s “shock rock”; mums of the 1950s probably think that (p)Elvis was _the_ satanic shock rocker...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Maybe if it was still the '70s-early '80s…
> 
> I remember when he was on The Muppet Show. Good times.


Good times indeed, though the Old farts were my preferred ones lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 17, 2021)

Happy St. Patrick's day, a bit of stout and some Irish music for me tonight.


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 17, 2021)

I went waay outside the box this year (the box being double wall, corrugated). Got me some Fallen Timber hopped mead, and for the Irish content… Áine O'Dwyer

Maybe follow-up with some Dropkick Murphys (Irish heritage, anyways)


----------



## jonathan c

To @Paladin79 and @Mr Trev, don’t forget The Pogues !


----------



## jonathan c

This doesn’t pertain to the DV itself but to tube rolling in general.....😲😲🤢...


----------



## Galapac

😱 When tubes get to the price of a car there is something wrong. You can get new ones, made by Western Electric for much cheaper here:

https://www.westernelectric.com/300b

Still high but not “stoned outta yo mind high”, lol 😂


----------



## therremans

More reasons to dislike tubedepot.com


----------



## Mr Trev

What $20k + shipping delays… seems legit.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I went waay outside the box this year (the box being double wall, corrugated). Got me some Fallen Timber hopped mead, and for the Irish content… Áine O'Dwyer
> 
> Maybe follow-up with some Dropkick Murphys (Irish heritage, anyways)



I have no idea what any of that is, but cheers anyway!!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> This doesn’t pertain to the DV itself but to tube rolling in general.....😲😲🤢...


My factory matched quad of 1958's are obviously humbled by this presence.  I'll hang onto them until they equal 1 bitcoin.  LOL!


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> I'll hang onto them until they equal 1 bitcoin. LOL!


Tubes...the new crypto...tubecoin. 🤑


----------



## DeweyCH

Oh my god undergrads cannot write for crap.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Oh my god undergrads cannot write for crap.



Was there a particular reference you had in mind, or where you just trying to ping @Ripper2860 ??


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Tubes...the new crypto...tubecoin. 🤑


LOL!  As soon as they reach $60k, I'll sell them.  I'm guessing the reissues are 96.3442% as good.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> More reasons to dislike tubedepot.com


That's assuming there was a reason to like them to start with.   Their add-on crap has always turned me off.  Beyond the matching (with no percentage specified), the rest of the stuff is total BS (IMO).


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Oh my god undergrads cannot write for crap.


Instant qualification for DV customer support?...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  As soon as they reach $60k, I'll sell them.  I'm guessing the reissues are 96.3442% as good.


One little issue with tubecoin: if your 1958 quads are accepted as tubecoin collateral and you want to sell them, you are paid with other tubes (possibly bangybang cast-offs). No cash changes hand. 😒😒😒


----------



## Galapac

Maybe GameStop could get into the tube business? I’d have a reason to go there again...Trade in my old tubes for next to nothing towards the purchase of brand new JJ tubes? 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> This doesn’t pertain to the DV itself but to tube rolling in general.....😲😲🤢...


Those were hand made by Enos Melancthon Barton himself the founder of Western Electric and were inherited by the Tube Depot owner lol 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Happy St. Patrick's day, a bit of stout and some Irish music for me tonight.



Happy Belated St. Patrick's day, cheers


----------



## HTSkywalker

@Paladin79 goody box 📦😍😍😍photo uploaded by international courier and should reach me shortly


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Was there a particular reference you had in mind, or where you just trying to ping @Ripper2860 ??


Sorry just venting while thinking about tubes to get my mind off the awful papers I spent the evening grading


----------



## DeweyCH

Will a 10k pot in the Darkvoice be too low resistance? The stepped attenuator that's in there now is a 10k, and I'm debating putting a 20k in, but other than volume getting hot fast, I don't really know what pot resistance does to the sound.


----------



## DeweyCH

Also has anyone compared Alps Blue Velvets to TKD pots? Is there actual upgrades to be had for the price difference?


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Will a 10k pot in the Darkvoice be too low resistance? The stepped attenuator that's in there now is a 10k, and I'm debating putting a 20k in, but other than volume getting hot fast, I don't really know what pot resistance does to the sound.


No, I use a 10k alps.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I have no idea what any of that is, but cheers anyway!!


The important takeaway is that the mead was delicious, and you either get experimental field recordings, or you have my sympathy


----------



## HTSkywalker

Good morning guys, is it worth buying a Beyer DT 990 600 Ohms cans only to see how the DV perform with high loads ? is it worth it knowing it only costs $200 if
it may give any added value.
Am using the Focal Elear and it's impressive enough though while the Ananda is happy being driven from both the Violectric and Cavalli CTH


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Good morning guys, is it worth buying a Beyer DT 990 600 Ohms cans only to see how the DV perform with high loads ? is it worth it knowing it only costs $200 if
> it may give any added value.
> Am using the Focal Elear and it's impressive enough though while the Ananda is happy being driven from both the Violectric and Cavalli CTH


I have a pair of DT 880 600 Ohms. They play very well although I still feel like they are not at their full potential. I recommend the 880s over the 990s in terms of overall sound. Totally worth 200$. Way underpriced for what they can do with the proper amplification


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I have a pair of DT 880 600 Ohms. They play very well although I still feel like they are not at their full potential. I recommend the 880s over the 990s in terms of overall sound. Totally worth 200$. Way underpriced for what they can do with the proper amplification


In which way you feel like they are not at their full potential ? how do they sound on the DV compared to SS amp


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> In which way you feel like they are not at their full potential ? how do they sound on the DV compared to SS amp


Well in my experience so far, the Zen CAN can make them play sound but I need to go on Very High gain, that's +18db on the amp and after about 1-2 o clock they distort and it's not the headphones fault. Plugging them in the DV it's night and day difference and they do get loud and sound very good. BUT when I take the DV line out, connect it to a Marantz PM5005 speaker amp and plug the headphones in that... totally different headphone. More dynamic than ever, controlled bass, huge soundstage. It's just better in every way. I'd say they are pretty amp picky, the DT 880s but I imagine all 600 Ohm Beyers are. As a conclusion, they do NOT sound bad by any means on the DV but they really open up on what they can actually sound when powered properly


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Well in my experience so far, the Zen CAN can make them play sound but I need to go on Very High gain, that's +18db on the amp and after about 1-2 o clock they distort and it's not the headphones fault. Plugging them in the DV it's night and day difference and they do get loud and sound very good. BUT when I take the DV line out, connect it to a Marantz PM5005 speaker amp and plug the headphones in that... totally different headphone. More dynamic than ever, controlled bass, huge soundstage. It's just better in every way. I'd say they are pretty amp picky, the DT 880s but I imagine all 600 Ohm Beyers are. As a conclusion, they do NOT sound bad by any means on the DV but they really open up on what they can actually sound when powered properly


Thanks for the insight, I will drop the idea in this case as I have very nice sounding cans (Elear & Ananda) out of both Violectric, the Cavalli CTH or the Mcintosch High drive. Was looking for something which stands out with the DV, thought the Beyer may do the job with 600 Ohms impedance.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks for the insight, I will drop the idea in this case as I have very nice sounding cans (Elear & Ananda) out of both Violectric, the Cavalli CTH or the Mcintosch High drive. Was looking for something which stands out with the DV, thought the Beyer may do the job with 600 Ohms impedance.


There's a thread out there that tested 270ohms as optimum impedance for the Darkvoice. Can't think of it right now but it's that dude who does the up and down testing of DAC/Amps his Avatar is a cute Chinese lady


----------



## qingcai

JKDJedi said:


> There's a thread out there that tested 270ohms as optimum impedance for the DarkVoice. Can't think of it right now but it's that dude who does the up and down testing of DAC/Amps his Avatar is a cute Chinese lady


I have a Sennheiser hd580, which is 300ohm, and it's the only headphone I can use with DV.  

looks at this thread, the little dot has better implementation, ignore the 339i: 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lit...s-all-verified-mods-are-on-first-page.782183/


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> There's a thread out there that tested 270ohms as optimum impedance for the Darkvoice. Can't think of it right now but it's that dude who does the up and down testing of DAC/Amps his Avatar is a cute Chinese lady


I believe his nickname is Zeos 👍


----------



## JKDJedi

I'm gonna open this thing up and "attempt" to try the heater mod.... so.. 50/50 this could go either way..  Got a full day here.. (rare day off!) should be easy..


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna open this thing up and "attempt" to try the heater mod.... so.. 50/50 this could go either way..  Got a full day here.. (rare day off!) should be easy..


Hope it won’t go south 😜 keep us posted


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 20, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Hope it won’t go south 😜 keep us posted


It went SOUTH ASAP....LMAO..  soon as I turned it on the resistors smoked up.. oh well..guys see anything wrong I did? tHESE ARE THE FRIED RESISTORS... https://www.partsconnexion.com/MILLS-65850.html#39770


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> It went SOUTH ASAP....LMAO..  soon as I turned it on the resistors smoked up.. oh well..guys see anything wrong I did? tHESE ARE THE FRIED RESISTORS... https://www.partsconnexion.com/MILLS-65850.html#39770


Sorry to hear 🤔🤔


----------



## bcowen

Yes.    

Wired the way you have those they are only being used as dropping resistors (not as part of a virtual center tap).  First, when used only as dropping resistors they should not be twisted together!  Second, you're now dissipating over 2 watts per resistor, so theoretically a 5w resistor should work but will likely get pretty hot.  A 7 watt or higher resistor would be _much_ better. But the main problem is you've twisted them together. Chunk those (they're dead) and try again.   If you're only wanting dropping resistors in there to reduce the voltage to the heaters, then one end of the resistor goes to the circuit board and the other to one leg of the heater wiring.  Repeat for the other leg, but don't let the two touch.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yes.
> 
> Wired the way you have those they are only being used as dropping resistors (not as part of a virtual center tap).  First, when used only as dropping resistors they should not be twisted together!  Second, you're now dissipating over 2 watts per resistor, so theoretically a 5w resistor should work but will likely get pretty hot.  A 7 watt or higher resistor would be _much_ better. But the main problem is you've twisted them together. Chunk those (they're dead) and try again.   If you're only wanting dropping resistors in there to reduce the voltage to the heaters, then one end of the resistor goes to the circuit board and the other to one leg of the heater wiring.  Repeat for the other leg, but don't let the two touch.


Thanks..lol..I'll try it again.. on my next day off..whenever that is.. been super busy with schools opening again.. alright.. will try 7watt resistors.. and No touchy!   thanks. I'll keep ya's posted.


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> It went SOUTH ASAP....LMAO..  soon as I turned it on the resistors smoked up.. oh well..guys see anything wrong I did? tHESE ARE THE FRIED RESISTORS... https://www.partsconnexion.com/MILLS-65850.html#39770


What is all that goop? What that already there on the board? Is that glue?


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> What is all that goop? What that already there on the board? Is that glue?


Probably the board melting from the 550 Fahrenheit heat.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Probably the board melting from the 550 Fahrenheit heat.


Looks to me like flux residue from the solder.  Invite some Q-Tips and Isopropyl alcohol over for a visit to clean it off.  Maybe a whole box of Q-Tips to be safe.


----------



## bcowen

Oh, also:  when you get the new resistors, work on the twisting of the heater wires.  The ones going between the 6080 and 6SN7 socket don't look too bad, but the twisting between the resistors and the 6080 socket is, um, not as good.  In order for twisting to have benefit in canceling noise, it needs to have a tighter twist than you have there and the twist consistency needs to be as even as humanly possible.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Looks to me like flux residue from the solder.  Invite some Q-Tips and Isopropyl alcohol over for a visit to clean it off.  Maybe a whole box of Q-Tips to be safe.


It is! I forgot I dripped some on there..


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> It is! I forgot I dripped some on there..


Good! I thought your DV was crying...😃


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> Good! I thought your DV was crying...😃


Probably was... everytime I open it. 😂😂 Battle scars everywhere.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Probably was... everytime I open it. 😂😂 Battle scars everywhere.


At least it hasn't run away seeking refuge at the Home for Abused Amps.   Yet.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> At least it hasn't run away seeking refuge at the Home for Abused Amps.   Yet.


Or even worse, to the cemetery of cremated amps lol 😂😂😂😜😜


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> Or even worse, to the cemetery of cremated amps lol 😂😂😂😜😜


Or worse than that… started rolling GE tubes in the alley behind the 7-11


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Or worse than that… started rolling GE tubes in the alley behind the 7-11


LMAO!  Not to nitpick or anything, but the only thing in the alley behind the 7-11 is a dumpster filled with Texas BBQ.   And the dumpster isn't happy about it.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Or even worse, to the cemetery of cremated amps lol 😂😂😂😜😜


Where forensic ID verification is needed before urnment....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LMAO!  Not to nitpick or anything, but the only thing in the alley behind the 7-11 is a dumpster filled with Texas BBQ.   And the dumpster isn't happy about it.


At least it is not Schenectady BBQ....


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 20, 2021)

Q. What is on Coachella milk cartons?


----------



## jonathan c

A. Pictures of a missing DarkVoice.


----------



## Galapac




----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


>


ROFL!  But that's not Jedi's....there's no smoke pouring out of it.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


>


👍👍


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least it is not Schenectady BBQ....


I wasn't aware such a thing existed


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 20, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I wasn't aware such a thing existed


It’s not a sauce; it’s GE’s Broken Bottle Quality tubes. They are made during last shift Friday / first shift Monday 😵. [At least Amperex has PQ...]


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 21, 2021)

Galapac said:


>


BTW @Paladin79 is also missing, anyone heard from him lately ?
probably out in a tube hunting journey 😄😄
I believe the  RCA open hunting season is in March 😛😛 
Can’t complain though, my cut is heading my way 🎁


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 21, 2021)

Lol I am busy wiring a pottery shed. Yesterday we cut a trench using a pressure washer and shop vac. Some serious wire was required and special drywall so we can install a kiln later. Luckily a buddy is an engineer working for my electric company and he made sure all was kosher. Today I work on landscaping and getting my fire pit area back into shape for spring.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I am busy wiring a pottery shed. Yesterday we cut a trench using a pressure washer and shop vac. Some serious wire was required and special drywall so we can install a kiln later. Luckily a buddy is an engineer working for my electric company and he made sure all was kosher. Today I work on landscaping and getting my fire pit area back into shape for spring.


Had my doubts about you hoarding around for tubes lol.
 Spring is near around here with Easter approaching, temperature is 74 degrees.
BBQ on and Arak is being served 😜😜😜 cheers 🍻


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 21, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Had my doubts about you hoarding around for tubes lol.
> Spring is near around here with Easter approaching, temperature is 74 degrees.
> BBQ on and Arak is being served 😜😜😜 cheers 🍻


I have definitely had Arak from Lebanon as well as a form of Baklava. You most likely call it something else.

I like to cook over hardwood coals, my fire pit is six feet across and the area is paved to accommodate 20 people or so. I have a few different grills I can lower over the fire and we also have a half dozen small hibachis that I fill with hot coals so people can cook their own thin strips of marinated beef filet or chicken with asparagus, mushrooms, etc.  It saves me doing all the cooking. The open fire is also the proper way to make proper paella and I have done that for groups as well as chicken piccata.  If you are doing those kabobs, they are done the proper way. A lot of people mix meat and vegetables and they have different cooking rates.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Had my doubts about you hoarding around for tubes lol.


LOL!  He was busy pressure washing his lawn.  And people say *I'm* anal.      

PS: the BBQ looks delicious, and I love the view from your deck/balcony!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He was busy pressure washing his lawn.  And people say *I'm* anal.
> 
> PS: the BBQ looks delicious, and I love the view from your deck/balcony!


LOL I was burying three strands of 4 AWG wire and the pressure washer makes sure you do not cut into underground wires. If I hit my fiber optic line, it would cost me an immediate $5,000 fee to have it patched.  We cut a one foot deep trench, 75 feet long in right at three hours, and laid the cable. This method works very well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL I was burying three strands of 4 AWG wire and the pressure washer makes sure you do not cut into underground wires. If I hit my fiber optic line, it would cost me an immediate $5,000 fee to have it patched.  We cut a one foot deep trench, 75 feet long in right at three hours, and laid the cable. This method works very well.


Wow.  That's a whole bunch of copper at 75'.  And am I correct in assuming the kiln is 220v (or higher) so you had to lay 4 runs of wire for 3 phase?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Wow.  That's a whole bunch of copper at 75'.  And am I correct in assuming the kiln is 220v (or higher) so you had to lay 4 runs of wire for 3 phase?


Three runs of 4 awg, and a separate 8 awg run attached to it. 220 volt kiln and 220 volt heater. There are paints and clay you need to keep warm in the winter. The kiln itself may draw 40 amps or more and you have to let it run 24 hours, thus special flame resistant drywall that weighs 105 lbs per sheet. The vaulted ceiling will be aluminum and cross beams will be maple because it sounds better!!! (seriously they will be red oak).

Just the one 8 gauge copper ground wire was $50 so that might give you an idea of cost. I could have grounded the box in the shed with a copper rod but you risk a ground loop that could affect audio in my house so we took no chances.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have definitely had Arak from Lebanon as well as a form of Baklava. You most likely call it something else.
> 
> I like to cook over hardwood coals, my fire pit is six feet across and the area is paved to accommodate 20 people or so. I have a few different grills I can lower over the fire and we also have a half dozen small hibachis that I fill with hot coals so people can cook their own thin strips of marinated beef filet or chicken with asparagus, mushrooms, etc.  It saves me doing all the cooking. The open fire is also the proper way to make proper paella and I have done that for groups as well as chicken piccata.  If you are doing those kabobs, they are done the proper way. A lot of people mix meat and vegetables and they have different cooking rates.


I miss our smoking station in Prague though, were not able to go home this summer due to COVID.
A smoking cut photo attached 😍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The vaulted ceiling will be aluminum and cross beams will be maple because it sounds better!!! (seriously they will be red oak).


ROFL!  I just hope you had that wire cryo-treated before you buried it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have definitely had Arak from Lebanon as well as a form of Baklava. You most likely call it something else.
> 
> I like to cook over hardwood coals, my fire pit is six feet across and the area is paved to accommodate 20 people or so. I have a few different grills I can lower over the fire and we also have a half dozen small hibachis that I fill with hot coals so people can cook their own thin strips of marinated beef filet or chicken with asparagus, mushrooms, etc.  It saves me doing all the cooking. The open fire is also the proper way to make proper paella and I have done that for groups as well as chicken piccata.  If you are doing those kabobs, they are done the proper way. A lot of people mix meat and vegetables and they have different cooking rates.


We call Baklawa and it's much more delicious than the Turkish Baklava version. Maybe hopefully one day I can have you and Bill around here or at our home in Prague for a grill and drinks 🥂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He was busy pressure washing his lawn.  And people say *I'm* anal.
> 
> PS: the BBQ looks delicious, and I love the view from your deck/balcony!


Pampering lawn is news to me lol
Hope one day to have around with Tom for a BBQ with Scotch and a music hearing session 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I just hope you had that wire cryo-treated before you buried it.


Dangit I knew I forgot something!!!  Chances are I will set up a tv and audio system for my wife, so far no air conditioning but there are french doors that can be opened and three windows. And we can sit on the porch and have a glass of wine in the evenings. I will be adding a bird bath and fountain and wild flowers for bees.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Dangit I knew I forgot something!!!  Chances are I will set up a tv and audio system for my wife, so far no air conditioning but there are french doors that can be opened and three windows. And we can sit on the porch and have a glass of wine in the evenings. I will be adding a bird bath and fountain and wild flowers for bees.


Count me in for the 🍷


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe the  RCA open hunting season is in March 😛😛


Isn’t GE amnesty day at the same time: swap GEs without penalty, retribution, shame for any RCA bounty?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He was busy pressure washing his lawn.  And people say *I'm* anal.


Are you the one who spray paints his lawn green in the spring? Which works better? PPG or Sherwin-Williams?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Just the one 8 gauge copper ground wire was $50 so that might give you an idea of cost. I could have grounded the box in the shed with a copper rod but you risk a ground loop that could affect audio in my house so we took no chances.


You gotta admire a man with priorities


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Are you the one who spray paints his lawn green in the spring? Which works better? PPG or Sherwin-Williams?


@bcowen  your secret is out 😂😂


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Are you the one who spray paints his lawn green in the spring? Which works better? PPG or Sherwin-Williams?


PPG/AkzoNobel makes good products. I’d go with that.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Isn’t GE amnesty day at the same time: swap GEs without penalty, retribution, shame for any RCA bounty?


Gotta ask @Paladin79, he is the RCA hoarder. Last I heard he have a truck load of RCA tubes hidden in his basement with booby traps planted (faking the camouflaged photo of today as being harmless wiring) 🤐🤐


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Gotta ask @Paladin79, he is the RCA hoarder. Last I heard he have a truck load of RCA tubes hidden in his basement with booby traps planted (faking the camouflaged photo of today as being harmless wiring) 🤐🤐




Wood for outdoor cooking, just split today


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Wood for outdoor cooking, just split today


My stock at the beginning of winter, mostly consumed by now in the chimney


----------



## therremans

This could be a great buy if tests good for a fellow European member.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pa...-/303928535785?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wood for outdoor cooking, just split today


Are those coffins in the background?  Sheeez....I'm gonna have to be more careful when picking on you.  Back-of-the-napkin calculations suggest it'd only take you around 3 hours to carve out a grave with that pressure washer.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Are those coffins in the background?  Sheeez....I'm gonna have to be more careful when picking on you.  Back-of-the-napkin calculations suggest it'd only take you around 3 hours to carve out a grave with that pressure washer.


With all that copper wiring, high voltage electricity, AND a fire pit on the premises, bury the thought of burial ⚡️⚡️🔥🔥😈...


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Are those coffins in the background?  Sheeez....I'm gonna have to be more careful when picking on you.  Back-of-the-napkin calculations suggest it'd only take you around 3 hours to carve out a grave with that pressure washer.



Those are pieces of fence for fire starter, I could do a Viking funeral for you or nail them together for a cheap coffin.😿

The pressure washer system works. I had a couple tall lean Indiana boys split all that wood for me using sledge hammer and mauls. You have probably seen that done for stills in your neck of the woods.😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are pieces of fence for fire starter, I could do a Viking funeral for you or nail them together for a cheap coffin.😿
> 
> The pressure washer system works. I had a couple tall lean Indiana boys split all that wood for me using sledge hammer and mauls. You have probably seen that done for stills in your neck of the woods.😺


I have one similar to the one below because:

1) I don't have any tall lean Indiana boys nearby, and 
2) I'm lazy. 

Works quite well, only limitation is that the model I have will only handle 12" diameter (or smaller logs), and you can only split about 15 logs into quarters at a time before the motor starts getting toasty.  Needs a couple hours to cool down, but after stacking 60 quarter pieces, I need some time too for the beer to rehydrate.    

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XB56CQ...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Those are pieces of fence for fire starter, I could do a Viking funeral for you or nail them together for a cheap coffin.😿
> 
> The pressure washer system works. I had a couple tall lean Indiana boys split all that wood for me using sledge hammer and mauls. You have probably seen that done for stills in your neck of the woods.😺


"pieces" "fire" "funeral for you" ""nail" "coffin" "tall lean"😉  "split" "sledge hammer" "mauls" "in you neck"
Call me suspicious but I can't help but smell a threatening tone and an embedded message towards @bcowen for spotting the coffins 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I have one similar to the one below because:
> 
> 1) I don't have any tall lean Indiana boys nearby, and
> 2) I'm lazy.
> ...


Interesting tool, but probably I will get the 30 pieces 1 hour break interval smaller version to enjoy more beer lol 😃
Mostly with no Indiana boys around, a "Texas chainsaw" looking guy do the job for me in a very loud, messy but efficient way lol
In fact he is equipped with 3 Chainsaws for redundancy and zero down time 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have one similar to the one below because:
> 
> 1) I don't have any tall lean Indiana boys nearby, and
> 2) I'm lazy.
> ...


I do not need such a device often. Whenever I have a tree cut down on my property I have them cut it up for later use. It is difficult to ask that it be split too so that happens later.  A young guy is taking over the business from my normal landscaper so I want to get him off on the right foot so I am finding several days work for him and a helper. After getting a lot of work done on my driveway there is a lot of lawn work to be done. Today they will work with hardscape.

Back to tubes, I am impressed with a grey glass GE I acquired (Ken-Rad). Overall tonality is decent, it reminds me of a few RCA or Sylvania. I would not rate it much higher than 83 and that could make the cut on the final 52 tubes we will use in a blind test, seven other friends will decide its fate and should be scoring it in the next few weeks.  Many friends have had a Covid shot or shots but the large group who will doing the final testing are mostly grad students so it will take some time to be sure they are safe.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> "pieces" "fire" "funeral for you" ""nail" "coffin" "tall lean"😉  "split" "sledge hammer" "mauls" "in you neck"
> Call me suspicious but I can't help but smell a threatening tone and an embedded message towards @bcowen for spotting the coffins 🤣🤣🤣


ROFL!  Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that.  I do, however, expect that _my_ coffin be made out of Tiger maple.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Mar 22, 2021)

Edit : solved


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that.  I do, however, expect that _my_ coffin be made out of Tiger maple.


I would rather just feed you to a tiger, we do happen to have one of the largest exotic feline rescue centers in the country not far from me, normally farmers bring dead dear but they might accept a Cowen.   

https://efrc.org/cats

It can be scary during the day if it is feeding time, it is also a way to learn about infrasound, frequencies below 20 hertz. Large mammals use it to communicate and being a low frequency it travels further than high frequencies.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I would rather just feed you to a tiger, we do happen to have one of the largest exotic feline rescue centers in the country not far from me, normally farmers bring dead dear but they might accept a Cowen.
> 
> https://efrc.org/cats
> 
> It can be scary during the day if it is feeding time, it is also a way to learn about infrasound, frequencies below 20 hertz. Large mammals use it to communicate and being a low frequency it travels further than high frequencies.


That's a much more daring and direct threat, @bcowen make sure to include your tubes hoard in your will 😆😆


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would rather just feed you to a tiger, we do happen to have one of the largest exotic feline rescue centers in the country not far from me, normally farmers bring dead dear but they might accept a Cowen.
> 
> https://efrc.org/cats
> 
> It can be scary during the day if it is feeding time, it is also a way to learn about infrasound, frequencies below 20 hertz. Large mammals use it to communicate and being a low frequency it travels further than high frequencies.


OK, fine.  I just moved "Visit Tom" down to the last item of my bucket list (sequentially obvious reason, of course).


----------



## Deceneu808

50K alps pot will arrive on Friday. Any tips ?


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> 50K alps pot will arrive on Friday. Any tips ?



Only this:






I thought I'd seen a reference somewhere else that the max tip temp was 550 degrees F (and 350 C = 662 F), but the above is directly from Alps site so should be good.  Biggest thing is to get the heat on and off of those pot pins as quickly as possible (while of course achieving a good solder joint).


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Only this:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I'd seen a reference somewhere else that the max tip temp was 550 degrees F (and 350 C = 662 F), but the above is directly from Alps site so should be good.  Biggest thing is to get the heat on and off of those pot pins as quickly as possible (while of course achieving a good solder joint).


Much better advice than my simple "Don't F it up"

But yup, good point. I have warped a Bourns pot. with too much heat - luckily I had an extra.


----------



## Deceneu808

I was linked by @DeweyCH a post on here with the pot guide but I stll can't figure which wire goes where on the new pot. I will disconnect the wires coming to the pcb but leave the old pot there and just take it out with the PCB. But then it becomes a little confusing
What wire do I solder to each input1/2. wiper 1/2, ground/ground from the three shown below ?


 



As far as I can see there are 7 exposed wires and only 6 pins on the pot.
If anybody can shed light it would really help


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> I was linked by @DeweyCH a post on here with the pot guide but I stll can't figure which wire goes where on the new pot. I will disconnect the wires coming to the pcb but leave the old pot there and just take it out with the PCB. But then it becomes a little confusing
> What wire do I solder to each input1/2. wiper 1/2, ground/ground from the three shown below ?
> 
> 
> ...


The extra is a ground. The grounds on the 6sn7 socket aren’t really necessary but act as a shield.

Input: L/R from the RCAs.
Wiper: L/R from the 6sn7s.
Grounds: 2 shields and one from RCA input.

Yellow = Left, match up the L and R on each side.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> The extra is a ground. The grounds on the 6sn7 socket aren’t really necessary but act as a shield.
> 
> Input: L/R from the RCAs.
> Wiper: L/R from the 6sn7s.
> ...


Thank you. I'm so bad at this sorry.

From what I understand now is:
Clutter one from RCA INPUT :

RED from RCA to Input 1
BLACK from RCA to Input 2
WHITE is ground ? Goes to ground I guess ?

RED Clutter
White wire out to Wiper 1
Ground to Ground ? Grouped with the one left or how ?

YELLOW CLUTTER:
White wire out to Wiper 2
Ground to where ?


----------



## therremans (Mar 23, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you. I'm so bad at this sorry.
> 
> From what I understand now is:
> Clutter one from RCA INPUT :
> ...


Can you see which wires are connected to the RCAs? I was thinking the black was the ground. But yes that looks right to me.

Those grounds can go there on those two pot pins. And they don’t have to match up with the L/R. I took a small lead and bridged my two ground pins, then connected the grounds together and ran a single wire to the pot. I was trying to minimize the soldering contact.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Can you see which wires are connected to the RCAs? I was thinking the black was the ground.


That is a photo from your post back 200 pages or so. I'll open my DV up tonight and have a look. I have it unplugged and turned on for the last 12 hours or so so that it drains any current that might be left, just to be safe. 
I'll snap some photos tonight and prepare for the new pot. Take the old one out


----------



## bcowen (Mar 23, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> That is a photo from your post back 200 pages or so. I'll open my DV up tonight and have a look. I have it unplugged and turned on for the last 12 hours or so so that it drains any current that might be left, just to be safe.
> I'll snap some photos tonight and prepare for the new pot. Take the old one out


Perhaps this might help a little visually.  I replaced the stock wiring from the RCA jacks in back to the pot with some coax wire.  The inner conductor goes to the center conductor on the RCA jacks, and then to the input tabs on the pot (on the right below). The outer conductor (and shield) goes to the ground pins on the pot (left pins below).  The center pins of the pot go to the grids on the 6SN7 socket (pins 1 and 4)'. The ground pins on the pot go to, well, ground.  I used a small terminal block to tie those grounds (from the pot) together with the ground bus wire in the amp as well as the ground connection from the headphone jack.  The terminal block isn't necessary, it just helps keep everything tied down and makes it easier to solder stuff together (for me).  Be careful that you keep the wire from the "right" RCA jack tied to where the stock red sleeved wire is on the 6SN7 socket, and the left RCA jack wire to the stock yellow sleeved wire on the socket or you'll end up getting your channels reversed (left to right  ).  If you are replacing any wiring, I think a shielded cable *is* needed from the RCA jacks to the pot.  Having a shielded wire between the pot and the 6SN7 socket (center pot pins to socket pins 1 and 4) is total overkill and not necessary...a good 20 gauge ( or thicker) wire there will be more than fine as shown below.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Now you got me thinking, should i upgrade to the stock DV potentiometer  ? if so  ALPS Blue Velvet or Black Beauty ?
and would the BB fits inside the DV ?
See that @Deceneu808 is using a 50K while @bcowen 20K 🙄🙄


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Now you got me thinking, should i upgrade to the stock DV potentiometer  ? if so  ALPS Blue Velvet or Black Beauty ?
> and would the BB fits inside the DV ?
> See that @Deceneu808 is using a 50K while @bcowen 20K 🙄🙄


And I a 10k. Yes I would recommend it.


----------



## Ripper2860

You guys go ahead.  I'll just be listening to music.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> And I a 10k. Yes I would recommend it.


So which is best in terms of K and model ?


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> So which is best in terms of K and model ?


It won’t matter much. I’d go with 10 or 20k. The blue RK27 is all I’ve used in it. If you use 100k, you’ll hear a noticeably higher noise floor, that’s why I recommend going low. 50k was better and the 10k is now dead silent.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 23, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> So which is best in terms of K and model ?


The Black Beauty would (likely) be best, although they are pricey, hard to find, and I don't know for sure if they would fit (haven't studied the dims myself).  The RK27 Blue Velvet** works nicely, is cheap, readily available, and is a _significant_ upgrade over the stock pot.  Takes a little chassis work -- need to ream out the shaft hole a bit larger which can be done without removing the faceplate, and then either remove the faceplate and drill a new hole for the locator pin that's in a different spot on the Alps than the stock pot, or just cut the locator pin off the Alps and do without it (which is what I did).  I'm pleased with the result with the 20k pot, but the 10k pot would work as well (and maybe even better?) as far as getting the pot closer to the mid-point of its travel to get to a comfortable listening level.

** Just a note of caution:  there are knock-offs of these coming out of China. Cheaper, and NOT a true Alps although they've done well copying every exterior visual detail as part of the counterfeiting. Suggest NOT buying these off Ebay and buying from a dealer or vendor you trust with confidence it's a true Japan-made Alps, even if you have to pay a little more.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The Black Beauty would (likely) be best, although they are pricey, hard to find, and I don't know for sure if they would fit (haven't studied the dims myself).  The RK27 Blue Velvet** works nicely, is cheap, readily available, and is a _significant_ upgrade over the stock pot.  Takes a little chassis work -- need to ream out the shaft hole a bit larger which can be done without removing the faceplate, and then either remove the faceplate and drill a new hole for the locator pin that's in a different spot on the Alps than the stock pot, or just cut the locator pin off the Alps and do without it (which is what I did).  I'm pleased with the result with the 20k pot, but the 10k pot would work as well (and maybe even better?) as far as getting the pot closer to the mid-point of its travel to get to a comfortable listening level.
> 
> ** Just a note of caution:  there are knock-offs of these coming out of China. Cheaper, and NOT a true Alps although they've done well copying every exterior visual detail as part of the counterfeiting. Suggest NOT buying these off Ebay and buying from a dealer or vendor you trust with confidence it's a true Japan-made Alps, even if you have to pay a little more.


You said "ream out the shaft hole"
sorry - I'll see myself out


----------



## Deceneu808

Just came out of surgery. Now the RCA input cable as I make it out the RED wire is right channel and the BLACK thicker wire is the left. The skinnier black wire is ground, right ? There were also two other "pipes" that were connected to the PCB. What should I do with them ? Now the problem is that both the Red cluster and the Yellow cluster have two black wires. Which one is the ground and which one is the "out" ? I have no idea what I'm doing tbh when the pot arrives


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You said "ream out the shaft hole"
> sorry - I'll see myself out


LOL!

I think your mind fell in here somewhere:


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> I think your mind fell in here somewhere:


Damn, that's a purty gutter.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Just came out of surgery. Now the RCA input cable as I make it out the RED wire is right channel and the BLACK thicker wire is the left. The skinnier black wire is ground, right ? There were also two other "pipes" that were connected to the PCB. What should I do with them ? Now the problem is that both the Red cluster and the Yellow cluster have two black wires. Which one is the ground and which one is the "out" ? I have no idea what I'm doing tbh when the pot arrives


You have the ground from your input jack. You can connect all of these grounds to the same place, cleanly as possibly to chassis ground. There’s many ways to do it but the cleanest is probably what bill did but that would require you ordering more parts. You can just solder the grounds together


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Just came out of surgery. Now the RCA input cable as I make it out the RED wire is right channel and the BLACK thicker wire is the left. The skinnier black wire is ground, right ? There were also two other "pipes" that were connected to the PCB. What should I do with them ? Now the problem is that both the Red cluster and the Yellow cluster have two black wires. Which one is the ground and which one is the "out" ? I have no idea what I'm doing tbh when the pot arrives


I would assume the thick red wire is the right RCA "+", and the thick black wire is the left RCA "+".  The thinner black wire is likely the right and left RCA "-" tied together, and the one buried below is likely the shield.  You should really check these between the end of the wire and the RCA connection for continuity with a DVM to be sure of that though -- you can only solder to the Alps once (per their specs), so it's important you get it right on the first try.  Note that the shield (not to be confused with the signal "-") should only be connected on one end....don't attach the shield on both ends.


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Damn, that's a purty gutter.


I thought the same.  I was like, damn, even @bcowen 's gutters has that craftsmanship.  Lol.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I thought the same.  I was like, damn, even @bcowen 's gutters has that craftsmanship.  Lol.


ROFL!  I'm still waiting on @Paladin79 to send me the Tiger maple grate, but he seems to be too busy pressure washing out  graves in his back yard.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> I think your mind fell in here somewhere:


Probably I'll follow steps lol no reamer work for me as well. the Alps is max $25, did the DV stock went even cheaper ? can't see any shortcomings yet


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> I would assume the thick red wire is the right RCA "+", and the thick black wire is the left RCA "+".  The thinner black wire is likely the right and left RCA "-" tied together, and the one buried below is likely the shield.  You should really check these between the end of the wire and the RCA connection for continuity with a DVM to be sure of that though -- you can only solder to the Alps once (per their specs), so it's important you get it right on the first try.  Note that the shield (not to be confused with the signal "-") should only be connected on one end....don't attach the shield on both ends.


I think it would be easier to find somebody who knows what he's doing and do it for me. I still have no idea which wire goes where. If I had to make a list of all the things I know and don't know, electricity would be on the last page


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I would assume the thick red wire is the right RCA "+", and the thick black wire is the left RCA "+".  The thinner black wire is likely the right and left RCA "-" tied together, and the one buried below is likely the shield.  You should really check these between the end of the wire and the RCA connection for continuity with a DVM to be sure of that though -- you can only solder to the Alps once (per their specs), so it's important you get it right on the first try.  Note that the shield (not to be confused with the signal "-") should only be connected on one end....don't attach the shield on both ends.


Yeah using the digital multimeter will be a good thing. Set it to continuity/beep.

I don't remember what the stock Darkvoice cable looks like. I know they changed it during some part of the builds. Mine had a gray coating. It had grounds to the RCA PCB board.

On another topic, I don't want to confuse him. Wouldn't the RCA just need one wire for signal per channel? and then a ground. Where does the "-" come into play here. For my Mogami replacement cable, I used a twisted pair  of wires per RCA terminal (a quad cable is used for both RCAs), then the braided sleeve was used as a shield, connected to ground at both ends.


----------



## Deceneu808

Why do ya'll have to live so far in the US


----------



## therremans (Mar 23, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> I think it would be easier to find somebody who knows what he's doing and do it for me. I still have no idea which wire goes where. If I had to make a list of all the things I know and don't know, electricity would be on the last page


You're probably overthinking it. I know you can do it but I wouldn't push someone who feels uncomfortable with a soldering iron. If you can, just copy bill. You do not need those braided grounds on the 6sn7 socket if its causing you concern. You could also replace the internal oem rca cable with something better for very cheap and it might even simplify things for you.

Get the parts ordered, tinker, do some thinking, ask questions and you'll end up with the curiosity and or confidence to finally do it. Practice soldering if you need and invest in a decent little solder setup with a variety of tips, ideally one with a temp display. Always set up the wire in its place so solder is the absolute last step. I am an amateur too.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Mar 23, 2021)

therremans said:


> You're probably overthinking it. I know you can do it but I wouldn't push someone who feels uncomfortable with a soldering iron. If you can, just copy bill. You do not need those sleeve grounds on the 6sn7 socket. You could also replace the internal oem rca cable with something better for very cheap and it might even simplify things for you.


I mean I'm good and accurate with the iron. I can do it cleanly but it's very confusing right now for me. I need to draw a schematic for all the wires and where they all connect. I can probably replace the stock rca cable as I have tons of them laying around.
What are these two "pipes" ?




And these two have two black wires coming out, which one is what ?






I just need to wrap my head around it but I'm more confused as to when I started.


----------



## therremans (Mar 23, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> I mean I'm good and accurate with the iron. I can do it cleanly but it's very confusing right now for me. I need to draw a schematic for all the wires and where they all connect. I can probably replace the stock rca cable as I have tons of them laying around.
> What are these two "pipes" ?
> 
> And these two have two black wires coming out, which one is what ?
> ...


The bars are the ground, if you look that one is coming right out of the headphone jack. You can remove that solid wire and replace with another wire that's more pliable or bend it around. The black wires coming out are the braided shield, it's just been thermal shrink wrapped, that is all. It's actually a white wire underneath that braiding and it is what is soldered onto the lug and only it. So the braiding is acting as a shield that is grounded, it never touches the lug on the socket.

I just wanted to add that I did not like that braided sleeve setup and tossed both from mine. It was stiff and they added shrink wrap all over it. I had some extra cloth push back wire that had the metal braided sleeve from gibson style guitars. but in the end, I had no noise issues or hum so I left it off and use a non shielded wire. Someone mentioned that it was almost like they just started insulated and adding extra grounds all over the place to possibly fix the hum which was really from a bad design flaw?


----------



## Deceneu808

I think I'll just leave it aside for a while until I actually understand what I'm doing with the wires. I have another tube amp coming in May so it's not all that sad if this blows up


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> I think I'll just leave it aside for a while until I actually understand what I'm doing with the wires. I have another tube amp coming in May so it's not all that sad if this blows up


Ask more questions and it will get sorted out. We don't need two DV blowing up in one week.  Again use that DMM to test what wires are connected where.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> We don't need two DV blowing up in one week.


There is not enough room on a milk carton for two pictures of missing DVs.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> I think your mind fell in here somewhere:


That looks like an outdoor transmission line cooling vent for a DV secretly owned by @bcowen...


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I'm still waiting on @Paladin79 to send me the Tiger maple grate, but he seems to be too busy pressure washing out  graves in his back yard.


Sorry but I am not  sure I will be able to make anything till I am done with my wife's shed, 220 is now hooked up so now I will be cutting oak, birch, or maple for the interior. I am also not so sure you deserve anything else anyway now that you have a DV extension. 

I will be using maple inside the shed since it sounds better.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Now you got me thinking, should i upgrade to the stock DV potentiometer  ? if so  ALPS Blue Velvet or Black Beauty ?
> and would the BB fits inside the DV ?
> See that @Deceneu808 is using a 50K while @bcowen 20K 🙄🙄


A black beauty would fit inside my DV but then I will create extra room for dual pots. When I am done my creation will make @bcowens device look like the dogs dinner.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but I am not  sure I will be able to make anything till I am done with my wife's shed, 220 is now hooked up so now I will be cutting oak, birch, or maple for the interior. I am also not so sure you deserve anything else anyway now that you have a DV extension.
> 
> I will be using maple inside the shed since it sounds better.


Heard that maple coffins are a treat for MIA audiophiles like @bcowen😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A black beauty would fit inside my DV but then I will create extra room for dual pots. When I am done my creation will make @bcowens device look like the dogs dinner.


Black beauty it is, search is already on.
@bcowen will have to live with cheaper options 😜


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 23, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Black beauty it is, search is already on.
> @bcowen will have to live with cheaper options 😜


We may not be talking about the same pots, mine are at least double the size of the blue velvet, you will not fit them in a stock DV cabinet.

It will be a while before I start my DV project, I am busy with other things and mine will not be a normal mod regardless so you should get pointers from others.   

Once I can find my shop again, I am building an amp or two for folks on here and such things can snowball.


----------



## DeweyCH (Mar 23, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> I mean I'm good and accurate with the iron. I can do it cleanly but it's very confusing right now for me. I need to draw a schematic for all the wires and where they all connect. I can probably replace the stock rca cable as I have tons of them laying around.
> What are these two "pipes" ?
> 
> And these two have two black wires coming out, which one is what ?
> ...


The two 'pipes' are the ground bar - you can attach ground wires to pretty much anywhere on those.
The two wires going from the socket are the outputs - the one with yellow is left, the one with red is right. Within each one are two wires, should be one white and one black; white is the signal, black is the ground.

Here's what you basically want:

White from RCA: Input 1
Red from RCA: Input 2
Black from RCA: Ground
White with Yellow Cluster: Wiper 1
White with Red Cluster: Wiper 2
Ground/bare from both clusters: Ground (any, you can attach them straight to those ground bars you asked about)
Also you can connect the two ground pins on the potentiometer itself together.

Also, importantly, make sure those two grounds you circled in the first picture are attached to each other. The one on the left is the ground for the headphone jack; if it's not connected to the rest of the ground bar, then your headphone jack will no longer be grounded and it'll be unfortunate-sounding at best.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah using the digital multimeter will be a good thing. Set it to continuity/beep.
> 
> I don't remember what the stock Darkvoice cable looks like. I know they changed it during some part of the builds. Mine had a gray coating. It had grounds to the RCA PCB board.
> 
> On another topic, I don't want to confuse him. Wouldn't the RCA just need one wire for signal per channel? and then a ground. Where does the "-" come into play here. For my Mogami replacement cable, I used a twisted pair  of wires per RCA terminal (a quad cable is used for both RCAs), then the braided sleeve was used as a shield, connected to ground at both ends.


It's possible to do it that way and it would (should) work, although you could end up with more humming from a ground loop it you just attached the "-" (or ground) connections of the RCA jacks together (at the jacks themselves) and grounded them there. Star ground concepts and all.   In my mind it's best to run a "+" and "-" (negative) wire from the RCA jacks to the pot (within a shielded wire), attach both "+" and "-" (ground) wires to the pot on the corresponding lugs, and then ground the pots terminals to a common point from there.  The shield itself should be grounded at one end only, not both. But I'm not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, so anyone can feel free to jump in and add to that (or correct it).


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Black beauty it is, search is already on.
> @bcowen will have to live with cheaper options 😜


I hate you.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> It's possible to do it that way and it would (should) work, although you could end up with more humming from a ground loop it you just attached the "-" (or ground) connections of the RCA jacks together (at the jacks themselves) and grounded them there. Star ground concepts and all.   In my mind it's best to run a "+" and "-" (negative) wire from the RCA jacks to the pot (within a shielded wire), attach both "+" and "-" (ground) wires to the pot on the corresponding lugs, and then ground the pots terminals to a common point from there.  The shield itself should be grounded at one end only, not both. But I'm not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, so anyone can feel free to jump in and add to that (or correct it).


I did disconnect the ground at the pot end per recommendation and reading what a ground loop was. But I got a loud hum so I put it back like this. I’ll draw what I did.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> It's possible to do it that way and it would (should) work, although you could end up with more humming from a ground loop it you just attached the "-" (or ground) connections of the RCA jacks together (at the jacks themselves) and grounded them there. Star ground concepts and all.   In my mind it's best to run a "+" and "-" (negative) wire from the RCA jacks to the pot (within a shielded wire), attach both "+" and "-" (ground) wires to the pot on the corresponding lugs, and then ground the pots terminals to a common point from there.  The shield itself should be grounded at one end only, not both. But I'm not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, so anyone can feel free to jump in and add to that (or correct it).


I prefer shielded twisted pair myself. What you do not want are ground wires and the shield both attached on each end. With all four connected  you have a mini antenna.😺


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I did disconnect the ground at the pot end per recommendation and reading what a ground loop was. But I got a loud hum so I put it back like this. I’ll draw what I did.


Not sure I'm totally getting your picture.  Is the cable 4 (internal) wires with a separate outer (braided) shield, or two internal wires with a braided shield?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Not sure I'm totally getting your picture.  Is the cable 4 (internal) wires with a separate outer (braided) shield, or two internal wires with a braided shield?


----------



## bcowen (Mar 23, 2021)

therremans said:


>


OK. Do you have both pieces of one pair connected to the center pin of each RCA?  Below is what I suggest if you can make sense of it (drawing is obviously not my forte'). Ignore the wire color labels...I just made those up for sake of illustration.  But basically you want to use one twisted pair for the right channel (RCA) and the other twisted pair for the left RCA (or channel).  One wire of one of the twisted pairs goes to the center conductor of the RCA, and the other wire of that pair goes to the ground lug of that RCA.  Repeat with the other pair for the other RCA.  Those are then connected correspondingly to the lugs on the pot.  The outer copper/braided shield should not be in the signal path with the type of wire you're using.  Cut the braided shield off at the pot end, and on the other end, twist it together, solder a short length of wire to it, and attach it to the earth ground lug of the IEC socket.  That way any noise picked up (and shielded or drained) is sent straight to earth ground rather than being injected back into the signal ground.  The braided shield should not be electrically connected to the signal wires (either positive or ground).  Does that make any sense?  Or maybe this is all academic and you already have it wired like this.


----------



## Deceneu808

Thank you for all the info. I've found somebody who repairs electronics from headphones, amps, speakers to laptops and pretty much everything that involves wires lmao.
I'll see him this Saturday if the pot arrives by Friday. It's safer this way


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you for all the info. I've found somebody who repairs electronics from headphones, amps, speakers to laptops and pretty much everything that involves wires lmao.
> I'll see him this Saturday if the pot arrives by Friday. It's safer this way


Or even better send it overseas to either @bcowen or @therremans  for guaranteed results.
We don’t want to end up with a smoked DV 😢😢


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Or even better send it overseas to either @bcowen or @therremans  for guaranteed results.
> We don’t want to end up with a smoked DV 😢😢


Yeah I already complained about them living too far. They should definitely consider moving closer for emergencies like this. @bcowen @therremans

Besides the pot change should I also swap the RCA cables & cut the line out ?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 24, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I already complained about them living too far. They should definitely consider moving closer for emergencies like this. @bcowen @therremans
> 
> Besides the pot change should I also swap the RCA cables & cut the line out ?


RCA cables swap is an easy upgrade since you already got the DV on the surgery table, better sort out the potentiometer wiring first though. Did you take a picture of the original Pot wiring before un-soldering it ? does it have the same count of pins as the ALPS ?
I believe @therremans did a swap for 100K Pots sometime last year and posted few photos. 
Once you got the wiring sorted out please post a detailed schematic of the wiring as am tempted to upgrade the Pot as well, am already searching for the Black Beauty and with no luck may go for the Blue Velvet.


----------



## HTSkywalker

The DHL guy just called and he's on his way with 3 packages including @Paladin79 treasure chest 🤩 as well as an RCA 6AS7G from Tube Depot and a Sylvania 2 holes 6SN7 from LowTechElec.
Asked him to take his time driving safely lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


>


Any photos of the final mounting of the 100K pot ? I believe that you were doing the upgrade sometimes in 2020 🙄
is there any advantages mounting the 100K as the stock is also 100K or better going lower for less humming.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I already complained about them living too far. They should definitely consider moving closer for emergencies like this. @bcowen @therremans
> 
> Besides the pot change should I also swap the RCA cables & cut the line out ?


Putting the house on the market today.  Should be there shortly.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I already complained about them living too far. They should definitely consider moving closer for emergencies like this. @bcowen @therremans
> 
> Besides the pot change should I also swap the RCA cables & cut the line out ?


I can't honestly say what changing the RCA -> pot wiring does sonically as I changed mine at the same time as the pot (and I used some pretty nice pure silver wire).  I suspect the pot had a lot more to do with the sonic improvement than the wire, but that's just an assumption.  OTOH, the stock wiring is a PITA to work with and about 3x the gauge size it needs to be, so swapping it with something smaller (and of higher quality) probably yields benefits beyond just the ease of working with it.  As far as disconnecting the line out section, it certainly doesn't hurt anything if you're not going to be using the DV as a preamp.  When I first disconnected mine, and contrary to the reports of some others I thought it actually sounded a bit _worse _so I put it back to stock form.  But then I removed it again when I did the pot swap, and the end result was better (but that likely due to the pot), so go figure.  *My* opinion?  I don't think it has a big effect on the sound one way or the other, but of course YMMV.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Asked him to take his time.....



ROFL!  Yeah, right.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> Putting the house on the market today.  Should be there shortly.


Cool. Should I look for house listings in my area ? I think I can move the neighbors from upstairs


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Cool. Should I look for house listings in my area ? I think I can move the neighbors from upstairs


LOL!  I don't think you want me upstairs unless you like Marilyn Manson at 105 dB.  At 3:00 AM.


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I don't think you want me upstairs unless you like Marilyn Manson at 105 dB.  At 3:00 AM.


lmao. I'll give you a pair of headphones. I have some laying around.
It's usually me who blasts music and movies that the neighbors from the third floor ask me if the movie was good lol


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


>


Something I should mention on the star quad, you can run two wires to ground and two to the tip of an RCA connector, it is twisted pair and that in itself acts as a shield. By the rule of three if you combine two 24awg you get 21 awg this way. The shield I still connect on one end only.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The DHL guy just called and he's on his way with 3 packages including @Paladin79 treasure chest 🤩 as well as an RCA 6AS7G from Tube Depot and a Sylvania 2 holes 6SN7 from LowTechElec.
> Asked him to take his time driving safely lol


I am glad to hear the tubes should be arriving safely, its been so long I forgot what I sent.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am glad to hear the tubes should be arriving safely, its been so long I forgot what I sent.


They say the memory is the first thing to.....

I saved a picture of what you sent. Hope this helps.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> They say the memory is the first thing to.....
> 
> I saved a picture of what you sent. Hope this helps.


Well most of the boxes did match but I believe they began with a W. 
Westinghouse, or Western Electric.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> lmao. I'll give you a pair of headphones. I have some laying around.
> It's usually me who blasts music and movies that the neighbors from the third floor ask me if the movie was good lol


One time I got a call around midnight from a neighbor asking about a name of a song i was playing on loud speakers 😂😂
It was Metallica Nothing Else Matters 😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Finally my beloved DHL’s George delivered all 3 📦 
You should see the grin on my face 😊
Off course THE biggest and neatest is @Paladin79 ’s
Can’t wait till everyone’s sleeping to lock all doors and do some testing 🤩🤩🤩


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Finally my beloved DHL’s George delivered all 3 📦
> You should see the grin on my face 😊
> Off course THE biggest and neatest is @Paladin79 ’s
> Can’t wait till everyone’s sleeping to lock all doors and do some testing 🤩🤩🤩


Nice stash you received there !


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 24, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Nice stash you received there !


@Paladin79  did a wonderful job cleaning, brushing and boxing all 14 tubes plus adapter with exact labeling along with some measurements result taped on most tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

@Paladin79 you Rock 🕺 
You made my day, can’t wait to start testing tubes and different combinations


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Putting the house on the market today.  Should be there shortly.


Now that home sweet home is on the market, what is the cardboard “wall count” up to? It goes up with each blink. The last post was “three”....besides, the realtor needs a story.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> One time I got a call around midnight from a neighbor asking about a name of a song i was playing on loud speakers 😂😂
> It was Metallica Nothing Else Matters 😄


Did (s)he say crank it up?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Did (s)he say crank it up?


It was a she and she was a long time listener to my live broadcast 😄, inviting her over for late night music and drinks (which I did out of politeness lol) could have been mistaken as “non music related” business 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

The funniest incident was me watching Godzilla one time while my family were sleeping at my in-laws. Sound level was cranked up till THX official loudness pressure  level with Audyssey 12.2 engaged.
The poor neighbor knocked his ass off on my door till he gave up and left 😂
I only knew about his story from another neighbor😊😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> They say the memory is the first thing to.....
> 
> I saved a picture of what you sent. Hope this helps.


I only received 14 tubes out of this pile 😂😂😂


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I only received 14 tubes out of this pile 😂😂😂


You should be chasing down George the DHL guy and demanding he hand over the rest.   Wait....they're GE's.  Nevermind.  You get the last laugh.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> You should be chasing down George the DHL guy and demanding he hand over the rest.   Wait....they're GE's.  Nevermind.  You get the last laugh.


Well in fact @Paladin79 sent me 1 GE tube to test, probably to tell me to stay away from GE lol
George can have the rest of the pile in this case 😁


----------



## Deceneu808

Surprise delivery. Second one should be here in about two weeks


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am glad to hear the tubes should be arriving safely, its been so long I forgot what I sent.


And here comes the list 🎺🎷🎸🎻🎹📯🎵🎵🎵🎵🎧🎧🎧🎧

Power Section tubes 6AS7G:

Svetlana winged C 
6080WA Sylvania
Amp Section tubes 6SN7:

RCA Grey Glass 
GE 
Marconi (Canadian Version)
Melz 
RCA clear glass
Tung Sol
Sylvania 2 Hole 
Philco Black Glass Mystery 🤩🤩🤩
Paired Amp Tubes 6J5 (to be used with adapter):

2 x RCA
2 x Sylvania aka Naughty Girls 😏
Adapter:

6J5-6J5 to 6SN7


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> And here comes the list 🎺🎷🎸🎻🎹📯🎵🎵🎵🎵🎧🎧🎧🎧
> 
> Power Section tubes 6AS7G:
> 
> ...


Tell me about those Melz tubes. There is a seller in my country that is full of Foton and Melz 6SN7s. I'm tempted to get a matching pair for my new amp coming soon


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Tell me about those Melz tubes. There is a seller in my country that is full of Foton and Melz 6SN7s. I'm tempted to get a matching pair for my new amp coming soon


Will surely do when i start the testing 👍


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 24, 2021)

Those Melz are decent but not top of the line. @bcowen can be help on Fotons, generally you want the fifties versions up to 59.

Melz can average about $105 up so you best know what you are doing with those and some years sound better than others. Here is a start on what to look for in Melz, I like the 63's best as far as perforated plates. If you find any with shiny black solid plates and the other features, you should try to buy them for me and I will reimburse you.   I believe I sent one like the middle Melz, a decent tube and probably comparable to a Foton.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Those Melz are decent but not top of the line. @bcowen can be help on Fotons, generally you want the fifties versions up to 59.
> 
> Melz can average about $105 up so you best know what you are doing with those and some years sound better than others. Here is a start on what to look for in Melz, I like the 63's best as far as perforated plates. If you find any with shiny black solid plates and the other features, you should try to buy them for me and I will reimburse you.   I believe I sent one like the middle Melz, a decent tube and probably comparable to a Foton.


This is what I can get. Worth my time ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/valtek2005?_bkw=6sn7


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Well in fact @Paladin79 sent me 1 GE tube to test, probably to tell me to stay away from GE lol
> George can have the rest of the pile in this case 😁


Perhaps the GE tube in the bunch is to test the lower limits of your tube tester(s)....👎


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 24, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I only received 14 tubes out of this pile 😂😂😂


You received only boxes? The tubes were supposed to be vacuum type - not the boxes.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Now that home sweet home is on the market, what is the cardboard “wall count” up to? It goes up with each blink. The last post was “three”....besides, the realtor needs a story.


You probably will need a higher “wall count”, imaginary or real, so that your abode does not look like the “45 degree” house looming by @UntilThen...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Those Melz are decent but not top of the line. @bcowen can be help on Fotons, generally you want the fifties versions up to 59.
> 
> Melz can average about $105 up so you best know what you are doing with those and some years sound better than others. Here is a start on what to look for in Melz, I like the 63's best as far as perforated plates. If you find any with shiny black solid plates and the other features, you should try to buy them for me and I will reimburse you.   I believe I sent one like the middle Melz, a decent tube and probably comparable to a Foton.


Decent insight into Melz tubes  🧐🧐 and I thought you were THE RCA die hard collector. I certainly hope my ears will be able to tell the difference between all the tubes I received today


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Perhaps the GE tube in the bunch is to test the lower limits of your tube tester(s)....👎


The rock bottom tube benchmark lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> You received only boxes? The tubes were supposed to be vacuum type - not the boxes.


Don't dare me into opening the boxes right now, am planning to do it later when all are sleeping and the house is all mine 😁
and a scotch is being served 🍺


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Don't dare me into opening the boxes right now, am planning to do it later when all are sleeping and the house is all mine 😁
> and a scotch is being served 🍺


And IF the tubes are all GE, in non-GE boxes so as to evade “crappy” tube immigration restrictions, the limits on the scotch get lifted.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> This is what I can get. Worth my time ?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/valtek2005?_bkw=6sn7



From Left to Right:  Nope, nope, nope, nope.    The 3 Melz ads pictured are all standard issue Melz -- they are not 1578's. Nothing wrong with them at all -- nice sounding tubes -- just that the prices are in 1578 territory and *WAY* high for a standard Melz that can be picked up for around $25 or so with some looking.  The Fotons are 1965's.  Rather 'meh' tubes to begin with, and can be found for $5 or less per tube pretty easily.  The ones you want are those made in 1959 or earlier, and the best of those are the 1955 and earlier (and some '56) with the ribbed plates.  This guys prices are quite honestly obscene for the tubes he's listing.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Surprise delivery. Second one should be here in about two weeks


Nice!!  That's the best version of the steel plate 6080's -- spring mica supports and the silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 24, 2021)

Does a socket saver serve in any way while rolling tubes to protect the original base socket ? definitely once settled on a certain combination of tubes, sockets are to be removed.
this looks gold plated and decent and coming in pair for both DV 8 pins sockets:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012MTEQN...olid=17R8K5IOB5545&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> And IF the tubes are all GE, in non-GE boxes so as to evade “crappy” tube immigration restrictions, the limits on the scotch get lifted.


I better start with the scotch in this case 🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> This is what I can get. Worth my time ?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/valtek2005?_bkw=6sn7


Not really, the Melz are overpriced and 65 Fotons are not as good as 50’s


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I better start with the scotch in this case 🤣🤣


With enough scotch, “GE” looks like “WE”..?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> The rock bottom tube benchmark lol


Have to change my statement as this place is reserved to the Chinese stock tubes 😂


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 24, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Does a socket saver serve in any way while rolling tubes to protect the original base socket ? definitely once settled on a certain combination of tubes, sockets are to be removed.
> this looks gold plated and decent and coming in pair for both DV 8 pins sockets:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012MTEQN...olid=17R8K5IOB5545&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


I have used socket savers / adapters and they do prevent wear n’ tear on the base sockets. E.G., for my Woo WA6, I use Woo’s 6SN7 (top) —> 6DE7 (bottom) adapter: (octal —> nonal). On the occasions where the 6SN7 is a tight fit to the adapter, I will remove or insert the tube/adapter _together_ from/to the headphone amplifier before separating or joining the tube and adapter.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> OK. Do you have both pieces of one pair connected to the center pin of each RCA?  Below is what I suggest if you can make sense of it (drawing is obviously not my forte'). Ignore the wire color labels...I just made those up for sake of illustration.  But basically you want to use one twisted pair for the right channel (RCA) and the other twisted pair for the left RCA (or channel).  One wire of one of the twisted pairs goes to the center conductor of the RCA, and the other wire of that pair goes to the ground lug of that RCA.  Repeat with the other pair for the other RCA.  Those are then connected correspondingly to the lugs on the pot.  The outer copper/braided shield should not be in the signal path with the type of wire you're using.  Cut the braided shield off at the pot end, and on the other end, twist it together, solder a short length of wire to it, and attach it to the earth ground lug of the IEC socket.  That way any noise picked up (and shielded or drained) is sent straight to earth ground rather than being injected back into the signal ground.  The braided shield should not be electrically connected to the signal wires (either positive or ground).  Does that make any sense?  Or maybe this is all academic and you already have it wired like this.


Okay great! I will follow this wiring diagram for the RCAs when I rebuild the amp in a couple weeks. I did have both wires (ea. twisted pair) going to each RCA center pin and used the shield as the ground from lugs to pot. It is dead silent. However I will wire it like this soon.


Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah I already complained about them living too far. They should definitely consider moving closer for emergencies like this. @bcowen @therremans
> 
> Besides the pot change should I also swap the RCA cables & cut the line out ?


Move to Paris, Italy or maybe Belgium, then sponsor me and help me find a job. Matter of fact, let me crash on your couch for awhile while I sort out my situation.


HTSkywalker said:


> Any photos of the final mounting of the 100K pot ? I believe that you were doing the upgrade sometimes in 2020 🙄
> is there any advantages mounting the 100K as the stock is also 100K or better going lower for less humming.


I could dig them out from my phone but I had the 100k and/or 50k shunted at one time. There isn't an advantage that I know of. The volume taper was the same on all three pot values that I tried. It doesn't impact that, it just impacts the noise floor from my experience. I recommend going with a 10 or 20k and wire it straight up. @bcowen has some cleaner work and nice photos of his 20k pot that he recently posted. But yeah, go with lower. Partsexpress can be a good source for the RK27 Blues but their shipping practices are hit or miss depending who packed it.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I have used socket savers / adapters and they do prevent wear n’ tear on the base sockets. E.G., for my Woo WA6, I use Woo’s 6SN7 (top) —> 6DE7 (bottom) adapter: (octal —> nonal). On the occasions where the 6SN7 is a tight fit to the adapter, I will remove or insert the tube/adapter _together_ from/to the headphone amplifier before separating or joining the tube and adapter.


I don't plan to keep the savers in place once am set on a tube combination as am against introducing any middleman where not needed , only planning to use while rolling frequently and the the savers I pointed too looks gold plated and decent and with 8 pins should serve for both DV sockets.
As for double tube on 6SN7 socket, @Paladin79 already provided an adapter.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> You probably will need a higher “wall count”, imaginary or real, so that your abode does not look like the “45 degree” house looming by @UntilThen...


Some design are totally unique like the Sydney Opera House. That 45 degrees house by the golf course would have been upright had my driver aka Mr. BCowen not drove the golf cart into it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Okay great! I will follow this wiring diagram for the RCAs when I rebuild the amp in a couple weeks. I did have both wires (ea. twisted pair) going to each RCA center pin and used the shield as the ground from lugs to pot. It is dead silent. However I will wire it like this soon.
> 
> Move to Paris, Italy or maybe Belgium, then sponsor me and help me find a job. Matter of fact, let me crash on your couch for awhile while I sort out my situation.
> 
> I could dig them out from my phone but I had the 100k and/or 50k shunted at one time. There isn't an advantage that I know of. The volume taper was the same on all three pot values that I tried. It doesn't impact that, it just impacts the noise floor from my experience. I recommend going with a 10 or 20k and wire it straight up. @bcowen has some cleaner work and nice photos of his 20k pot that he recently posted. But yeah, go with lower. Partsexpress can be a good source for the RK27 Blues but their shipping practices are hit or miss depending who packed it.


Rather not try my luck with Partsexpress as am sure I will end up with a trashy packer ☹☹


----------



## therremans

I bought some octal socket savers on eBay. Brass and ceramic. I stopped using them when I swapped in Belton sockets. Now they sit in a box of adapters.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I bought some octal socket savers on eBay. Brass and ceramic. I stopped using them when I swapped in Belton sockets. Now they sit in a box of adapters.


Seems you replaced the DV stock sockets with the Belton's ? did you use the 9.5 or 10.5 mm pins ?


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Okay great! I will follow this wiring diagram for the RCAs when I rebuild the amp in a couple weeks. I did have both wires (ea. twisted pair) going to each RCA center pin and used the shield as the ground from lugs to pot. It is dead silent. However I will wire it like this soon.
> 
> Move to Paris, Italy or maybe Belgium, then sponsor me and help me find a job. Matter of fact, let me crash on your couch for awhile while I sort out my situation.
> 
> I could dig them out from my phone but I had the 100k and/or 50k shunted at one time. There isn't an advantage that I know of. The volume taper was the same on all three pot values that I tried. It doesn't impact that, it just impacts the noise floor from my experience. I recommend going with a 10 or 20k and wire it straight up. @bcowen has some cleaner work and nice photos of his 20k pot that he recently posted. But yeah, go with lower. Partsexpress can be a good source for the RK27 Blues but their shipping practices are hit or miss depending who packed it.


@bcowen has had some experience soldering kits and changing capacitors and such and I must say his work looked quite good. I have tried not to comment on other soldering I have seen since it might be a person's first effort.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen has had some experience soldering kits and changing capacitors and such and I must say his work looked quite good. I have tried not to comment on other soldering I have seen since it might be a person's first effort.


Saying good things about @bcowen !!!! 😦😦 , did you catch COVID ?? lol


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems you replaced the DV stock sockets with the Belton's ? did you use the 9.5 or 10.5 mm pins ?


I wasn’t aware of two versions. I used the 8-pin with solder lugs. https://www.parts-express.com/8-Pin-Tube-Socket-Belton-Micalex-Chassis-Mount-055-550


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I wasn’t aware of two versions. I used the 8-pin with solder lugs. https://www.parts-express.com/8-Pin-Tube-Socket-Belton-Micalex-Chassis-Mount-055-550


Probably the same :
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/belton-8-pin-octal-chassis-mount-socket
Would that be an exact fit to both the stock ones ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

came across this Pot marketed as the newer pots
https://s3.amazonaws.com/tubedepot-com-production/spree/attached_files/RK271-1370748.pdf?1591628775


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Saying good things about @bcowen !!!! 😦😦 , did you catch COVID ?? lol


The little fellow needs encouragement from time to time otherwise he sulks. 😺 No Covid here and I have had both shots just in case.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The little fellow needs encouragement from time to time otherwise he sulks. 😺 No Covid here and I have had both shots just in case.


so you are protected by Pfizer but hopefully not powered by it 🤐🤐🤐 lol


----------



## therremans (Mar 24, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably the same :
> https://www.tubedepot.com/products/belton-8-pin-octal-chassis-mount-socket
> Would that be an exact fit to both the stock ones ?


Yes for both but there are somethings to be aware of, I mentioned it before. The top plate cut out is smaller for the 6sn7. So fitting the socket in there is tight, you’ll need to slightly bend the mounting lugs and push back into place when it’s fitted and bolted in. The mounting lugs will be oriented vertically and not horizontally, to keep the socket pins facing forward and keeping wiring the same. The sockets need to be installed from the top unless you wish to bore out the holes slightly that they fit into.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 24, 2021)

Getting a headache from all those tweaks and upgrades, I'd better go start rolling and accept the DV as it is and later on (maybe even tonight 😝) order a WOO WA6 (2nd Gen - which comes with ALPS pot and power switch among other ornaments with universal voltage too as well as being Planar friendly starting from 8 Ohms up to 600) later on lol.
Probably better buying a German car instead of buying a Chinese one and upgrading its parts 😁😁😁


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Getting a headache from all those tweaks and upgrades, I'd better go start rolling and accept the DV as it is



Bingo. Same way I accept @bcowen as he is. I stopped trying to make him a better driver.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Getting a headache from all those tweaks and upgrades, I'd better go start rolling and accept the DV as it is and later on (maybe even tonight 😝) order a WOO WA6 (2nd Gen - which comes with ALPS pot and power switch among other ornaments with universal voltage too as well as being Planar friendly starting from 8 Ohms up to 600) later on lol.
> Probably better buying a German car instead of buying a Chinese one and upgrading its parts 😁😁😁


You are wise to make that decision and I believe you were not experiencing much hum anyway.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Bingo. Same way I accept @bcowen as he is. I stopped trying to make him a better driver.


If he cannot drive, have him use a 3-wood 😜


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> If he cannot drive, have him use a 3-wood 😜


I'm seriously thinking of giving him a putter.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You are wise to make that decision and I believe you were not experiencing much hum anyway.


Can’t stop listening to the Svetlana coupled with the Philco though 😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

The RCA 2x6J5 with the Winged Svetlana are so sweet


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Does a socket saver serve in any way while rolling tubes to protect the original base socket ? definitely once settled on a certain combination of tubes, sockets are to be removed.
> this looks gold plated and decent and coming in pair for both DV 8 pins sockets:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012MTEQN...olid=17R8K5IOB5545&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


What you've linked are sockets, not socket savers.  The base pins on those are quite a bit larger in diameter than an octal tube, and if you can even get them forced into the DV's sockets, it will stretch the contacts out pretty badly.  I don't use socket savers myself.  If the contacts get loose over time, it's easy enough to go in with a pick and re-tension them.


----------



## GEK

DeweyCH said:


> OOC, what are the two black things the heater wire is attached to in that above pic?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Some design are totally unique like the Sydney Opera House. That 45 degrees house by the golf course would have been upright had my driver aka Mr. BCowen not drove the golf cart into it.


Criminy.  I was just trying to bang out the excess water after I got the cart out of the lake.  There's just no pleasing _some_ people.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen has had some experience soldering kits and changing capacitors and such and I must say his work looked quite good. I have tried not to comment on other soldering I have seen since it might be a person's first effort.


Excepting those joints I missed soldering to begin with.  LOL!   Guess it can't be a bad soldering job if you don't solder it at all.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Saying good things about @bcowen !!!! 😦😦 , did you catch COVID ?? lol


ROFL!  He's obviously been hitting that bottle of scotch a little too hard.  I guess after 6 or 7 shots you tend to lose count.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 24, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Bingo. Same way I accept @bcowen as he is. I stopped trying to make him a better driver.



Fine.  The only instruction I ever got from you before was "Bring me a beer."   Fortunately it's a direct translation from Australian.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> What you've linked are sockets, not socket savers.  The base pins on those are quite a bit larger in diameter than an octal tube, and if you can even get them forced into the DV's sockets, it will stretch the contacts out pretty badly.  I don't use socket savers myself.  If the contacts get loose over time, it's easy enough to go in with a pick and re-tension them.


So riddle me this…
How does one go about re-tensioning those sockets where the opening is only big enough for the pins (like on the Vali2). MIne still has a firm contact, but I've always wondered…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> So riddle me this…
> How does one go about re-tensioning those sockets where the opening is only big enough for the pins (like on the Vali2). MIne still has a firm contact, but I've always wondered…


Noval sockets (Vali 2) are harder, but can still be done with these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Excepting those joints I missed soldering to begin with.  LOL!   Guess it can't be a bad soldering job if you don't solder it at all.


Being a gentleman, I did not want to bring that up. I may need more tubes again one day and no sense rankling you more than usual.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  He's obviously been hitting that bottle of scotch a little too hard.  I guess after 6 or 7 shots you tend to lose count.


I am more apt to switch to beer this time of year, or at least aged rum and coke. Maybe a margarita on occasion.  

Strangely enough I got a Linkedin request from you today and even accepted it!!!  Does that make us business associates??


----------



## Galapac (Mar 24, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> So riddle me this…
> How does one go about re-tensioning those sockets where the opening is only big enough for the pins (like on the Vali2). MIne still has a firm contact, but I've always wondered…


You go to the dentist, and then then grab the picks after they clean your teeth...or get a set of these:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B5HQVWW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## HTSkywalker

Long story short, am afraid am an RCA & Melz admirer unless @Paladin79  dopped me into joining his RCA clan by choosing this specific tubes collection he sent my way.
A detailed testing and impressions will surely follow (When am sober enough) 😜😜 🥂


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Fine.  The only instruction I ever got from you before was "Bring me a beer."   Fortunately it's a direct translation from Australian.



No worries someday you will help me win the US Masters, despite handing me the 9 iron when I'm 300 metres from the hole.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Long story short, am afraid am an RCA & Melz admirer unless @Paladin79  dopped me into joining his RCA clan by choosing this specific tubes collection he sent my way.
> A detailed testing and impressions will surely follow (When am sober enough) 😜😜 🥂


You have no preconceived notions so anything you like you like. Most of those tubes are what I consider medium to upper medium grade. You can start with those then refine your tastes a bit.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> No worries someday you will help me win the US Masters, despite handing me the 9 iron when I'm 300 metres from the hole.


Well, take comfort in the fact it wasn't 400 meters...that would have called for an 8 iron, possibly a 7 depending on how many beers you'd had.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have no preconceived notions so anything you like you like. Most of those tubes are what I consider medium to upper medium grade. You can start with those then refine your tastes a bit.


You included a GE, right?  He needs a dreck baseline.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> You included a GE, right?  He needs a dreck baseline.


In fact the Chinese stock tube stole the baseline position with flying colors 😊
Even from the GE 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You have no preconceived notions so anything you like you like. Most of those tubes are what I consider medium to upper medium grade. You can start with those then refine your tastes a bit.


Am extremely thankful as I will be able to test different brand”s tones to be able to target the right premium grade tube to my liking.
You spared me the hassle and cost of the “Tube 101” course 👍👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am extremely thankful as I will be able to test different brand”s tones to be able to target the right premium grade tube to my liking.
> You spared me the hassle and cost of the “Tube 101” course 👍👍


I may have sent a grey glass RCA, one of the first 6SN7’s I grew to love.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I may have sent a grey glass RCA, one of the first 6SN7’s I grew to love.


OMG exactly the one that made me fall for RCA even given the short test runs I did on all the tubes.
It has:
- nice mids
- good separation
- wide soundstage
- detailed presentation
- good bass
- very low noise
- A good synergy with the RCA 6AS7G

and the other RCA does not fall very short from the grey one. Loved the Melz as well with detailed treble, controlled bass and good imaging.
The Tung Sol is impressive as well by being musical abd detailed but with recessed treble.


----------



## Mr Trev

Galapac said:


> You go to the dentist, and then then grab the picks after they clean your teeth...or get a set of these:
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B5HQVWW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


-Shudder- just had a Marathon Man flashback


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> -Shudder- just had a Marathon Man flashback


Is it safe yet?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> No worries someday you will help me win the US Masters, despite handing me the 9 iron when I'm 300 metres from the hole.


Or the driver when on the 18th green....Oh, by the way, the Green Jacket is not polyester and does not have wide collars & white stitching.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Or the driver when on the 18th green....Oh, by the way, the Green Jacket is not polyester and does not have wide collars & white stitching.


I would imagine the one they give to @UntilThen will look something like this:


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact the Chinese stock tube stole the baseline position with flying colors 😊
> Even from the GE 😜


OK, I can believe that.  Too bad @Paladin79 didn't have a Philips ECG to send you.  That would make even the Chinese tube sound awesome.


----------



## Galapac

...or


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> ...or


Did this GEnie come out of a GE 12au7? Can he be put back in?


----------



## UntilThen

Amazing jacket. Driver at the 18th green will have the pros scratching their heads. Takes unconventional techniques to win the Masters.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Amazing jacket. Driver at the 18th green will have the pros scratching their heads. Takes unconventional techniques to win the Masters.


No wonder the jacket may only be worn in the clubhouse.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Did this GEnie come out of a GE 12au7? Can he be put back in?



This is more like what would come out of a GE tube.  Try and un-see that, and sleep well.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> This is more like what would come out of a GE tube.  Try and un-see that, and sleep well.


Really, I'd imagine it'd look more like this:




G'night Bill.
BTW, his name is Jasper.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 24, 2021)

bcowen said:


> This is more like what would come out of a GE tube.  Try and un-see that, and sleep well.


😲😱👣👀💀...I bring dead things to life...


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> This is more like what would come out of a GE tube.  Try and un-see that, and sleep well.


Ohhh seems you were posting selfies while I was sleeping. 😱😱
here’s mine, the face expression have to do with me trying the GE tube 😛


----------



## UntilThen

Oh my I thought my skull is bad enough but you guys are really ugly. Yous been rolling toos manys tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Really, I'd imagine it'd look more like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jasper?  Man, for a minute I thought that was Finnegan without his makeup.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Jasper?  Man, for a minute I thought that was Finnegan without his makeup.


Hey jerk face, leave Finnegan out of this lol. You can say what you want about me but don't go disrespecting my cat!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey jerk face, leave Finnegan out of this lol. You can say what you want about me but don't go disrespecting my cat!


Coming from the man who let Finnegan shove his head in his shoes leaving him with 8 lives left 😄


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Coming from the man who let Finnegan shove his head in his shoes leaving him with 8 lives left 😄


Ok, back to tubes lol. Hopefully you experienced no hum in the tubes I sent. I cannot recall if I included a Foton but they were extremely noisy for me in a DV.


----------



## DeweyCH

Nice combination. I'm struggling because my Auteurs sound better than the VCs, but I know the VCs apparently need some serious burn-in to hit their stride.

Oh, and I hate this new knob. I'ma put the smaller black one back one.

Sylvania is a great, detailed tube, and I think these dual A2293s are my favorite of all the power tubes I've rolled. I keep going back to them.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok, back to tubes lol. Hopefully you experienced no hum in the tubes I sent. I cannot recall if I included a Foton but they were extremely noisy for me in a DV.


No Foton that I know of 😊
I tried both RCA and the Winged Svetlana 6AS7G with all the 6SN7 tubes. The Sylvania was not thoroughly tested but seemed less impressive than the previous 2 (still to be known).

As for the 6SN7, no humming at all below 2 o’clock for all tubes including the 6J5 dual sets and still very low above it (the GE does hum more than all others) with the Focal 80 Ohms cans plugged, no humming with the Ananda but still the Ananda is not usable with the DV.

The Melz have the least humming among all tubes followed by all RCA tubes including the dual 6J5.
The Tung Sol was clean too.
The GE have the highest humming. 
I believe the humming is DV related as it varies with different cans, maybe since it needs burning time (still less than 10 hours).
But to be fair, the low humming does not affect in any way the music enjoyment as I only went up to humming levels just to test the humming.
More detailed results per tube to be posted.


----------



## DeweyCH

Top-notch clarity can have some downsides apparently. Finally got my Dual 1019 going through the two OTL amps and my ZMFs, and I am hearing for the first time the idler wheel rumble.

(Only between tracks really, but it's made me laugh a little bit... I always thought it was a myth b/c I couldn't hear it through loudspeakers)


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Nice combination. I'm struggling because my Auteurs sound better than the VCs, but I know the VCs apparently need some serious burn-in to hit their stride.
> 
> Oh, and I hate this new knob. I'ma put the smaller black one back one.
> 
> Sylvania is a great, detailed tube, and I think these dual A2293s are my favorite of all the power tubes I've rolled. I keep going back to them.


If you have the straight shaft (non-knurled) Alps pot, this knob fits perfectly:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-30-22m...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I added a dot of white paint in the small detent to make it easy to see the rotation level.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> If you have the straight shaft (non-knurled) Alps pot, this knob fits perfectly:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-30-22mm-High-End-Black-Solid-Aluminum-Knob-FR-Radio-Amp-Volume-Potentiometer/323866769806?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> I added a dot of white paint in the small detent to make it easy to see the rotation level.


That's the one I have; I got a couple of those big-ass silver ones so I'd have something to put on the Crack when it was done, but they're way bigger than I expected.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey jerk face, leave Finnegan out of this lol. You can say what you want about me but don't go disrespecting my cat!



Oooops, didn't mean to disrespect Finnegan.  Guess I kind of crossed the (fe)line on that one. 

Would it be better if I said it looked like _you_ without your makeup?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Oooops, didn't mean to disrespect Finnegan.  Guess I kind of crossed the (fe)line on that one.
> 
> Would it be better if I said it looked like _you_ without your makeup?


I am about to create something amazing, I may have to send one to Ripper since you are being insulting lol. I am talking serious art.  Oh yeah the inside of the shed was going to be Carolina blue with maple but now I am tempted to change to a Duke blue.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Top-notch clarity can have some downsides apparently. Finally got my Dual 1019 going through the two OTL amps and my ZMFs, and I am hearing for the first time the idler wheel rumble.
> 
> (Only between tracks really, but it's made me laugh a little bit... I always thought it was a myth b/c I couldn't hear it through loudspeakers)


Yeah, once the rubber on that idler wheel ages it gets hard and starts making itself audible.  Unless you can find a new one (that isn't already old and hard) I've used this with good success in the past. Gives some flex back to the rubber and reduces the wheel noise pretty substantially:

https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...ords=rubber+rejuvenator&qid=1616689392&sr=8-6


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am about to create something amazing, I may have to send one to Ripper since you are being insulting lol. I am talking serious art.  Oh yeah the inside of the shed was going to be Carolina blue with maple but now I am tempted to change to a Duke blue.


LOL!  That's kind of in-between Carolina and Duke blue, so you're good.


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Yeah, once the rubber on that idler wheel ages it gets hard and starts making itself audible.  Unless you can find a new one (that isn't already old and hard) I've used this with good success in the past. Gives some flex back to the rubber and reduces the wheel noise pretty substantially:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...ords=rubber+rejuvenator&qid=1616689392&sr=8-6


I actually had the idler wheel professionally rebuilt a few years back by a guy in Iowa who specializes in Duals.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> Nice combination. I'm struggling because my Auteurs sound better than the VCs, but I know the VCs apparently need some serious burn-in to hit their stride.
> 
> Oh, and I hate this new knob. I'ma put the smaller black one back one.
> 
> Sylvania is a great, detailed tube, and I think these dual A2293s are my favorite of all the power tubes I've rolled. I keep going back to them.


And you guys were laughing at my small knob,  
What about this one with a set screw, too big?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/44-25mm-So...rand=Unbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219


----------



## HTSkywalker

A primary tubes comparison after my first roll:

Power Section tubes 6AS7G:
1- Svetlana winged C & RCA both good performance with more synergy for the RCA with the 6SN7 RCAs
2- 6080WA Sylvania - tested for low noise, still needs more tonal testing 

Amp Section tubes 6SN7:
- RCA Grey Glass - shines with Rock, One of the top tubes especially when coupled with the RCA 6AS7G
- Melz - Detailed treble and controlled bass with precise imaging
- RCA clear glass - Sweet mids, good separation, wide soundstage, detailed bass and very low noise
- Philco Black Mystery - Good bass, nice separation, smooth detailed treble
- Dual 6J5 RCA - Warm presentation, good mids and vocals, good separation with recessed treble
- Dual Sylvania aka Naughty Girls - Low noise, Prominent vocals, recessed bass, good imaging
- Sylvania 2 Holes - Nice soundstage, clean presentation and smooth mids
- Tung Sol - Musical, detailed presentation, recessed treble with prominent mids
- Marconi- Not much personality, average performance
- GE - Humming, mudded treble, weak bass with not much separation

So far and it's too early to get a final judgement but the Winged Svetlana, all RCAs (especially the dark glass one and the 6J5s), the Melz, the Sylvania and the Philco stood out for my liking but all this could change with more testing 😃


----------



## Paladin79

The winged C and RCA power tubes should be fairly similar.

After you have listened for a while, and made your judgements. Leave the Svetlana in and have your wife swap 6sn7 tubes while you face away from the amp, then see how many you identify correctly, blind. Maybe play the same musical passage each time.  Then imagine doing the same thing for 52 tubes instead of 10. My group uses a scoring system so we can try to objectively rate each tube on the same criteria (we use 25), and we use a large group since there is an accuracy in numbers.  I have a pretty good idea of the point rating on the RCA grey glass.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The winged C and RCA power tubes should be fairly similar.
> 
> After you have listened for a while, and made your judgements. Leave the Svetlana in and have your wife swap 6sn7 tubes while you face away from the amp, then see how many you identify correctly, blind. Maybe play the same musical passage each time.  Then imagine doing the same thing for 52 tubes instead of 10. My group uses a scoring system so we can try to objectively rate each tube on the same criteria (we use 25), and we use a large group since there is an accuracy in numbers.  I have a pretty good idea of the point rating on the RCA grey glass.


Well the tonal similarity of the RCA and Winged C was obvious to me.
Asking my wife to unplug a hot tube and plug another repeatedly will have heavy consequences if she got her fingers burnt 🙃🙃
But I would love to try to blindly identifying the tubes and fill a criterion table using the same track. Would be helpful if you can send me the 25 criterion table.
Well there are many reasons to love the Grey Glass RCA, I give you that 🙂🙂
In fact I loved all 5 RCA tubes in my possession.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> And you guys were laughing at my small knob,
> What about this one with a set screw, too big?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/44-25mm-Solid-Aluminum-Knob-For-Hifi-Audio-AMP-Volume-Potentiometer-6mm-Hole-1PC/221464168965?_trkparms=aid=1110002&algo=SPLICE.SOI&ao=1&asc=20201210111451&meid=7c68e3d9940c40b581510172c0a3d480&pid=101196&rk=2&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=323866769806&itm=221464168965&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=PromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&brand=Unbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219


If you want it to fit within the inset of the DV front plate, it needs to be no larger than 30mm in diameter.


----------



## HTSkywalker

😎😎😎


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well the tonal similarity of the RCA and Winged C was obvious to me.
> Asking my wife to unplug a hot tube and plug another repeatedly will have heavy consequences if she got her fingers burnt 🙃🙃
> But I would love to try to blindly identifying the tubes and fill a criterion table using the same track. Would be helpful if you can send me the 25 criterion table.
> Well there are many reasons to love the Grey Glass RCA, I give you that 🙂🙂
> In fact I loved all 5 RCA tubes in my possession.


Ever heard of letting the tubes cool before changing them?   
That table is the property of my group as well as the music that goes along with it, I am no longer the President but I will see if I can at least get you the terms with descriptions. The music was recorded for our test sessions and without artist approval the music stays with us unfortunately.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Well the tonal similarity of the RCA and Winged C was obvious to me.
> Asking my wife to unplug a hot tube and plug another repeatedly will have heavy consequences if she got her fingers burnt 🙃🙃
> But I would love to try to blindly identifying the tubes and fill a criterion table using the same track. Would be helpful if you can send me the 25 criterion table.
> Well there are many reasons to love the Grey Glass RCA, I give you that 🙂🙂
> In fact I loved all 5 RCA tubes in my possession.


I liked that gray glass RCA a lot myself.  IIRC, it was one of my 2 most favorite in the group of nine that @Paladin79 sent me.  Hadn't ever heard one before that so I couldn't (correctly) identify it, but I now have 3 in my own stash.  I know, I know....3 is just a small party and I need 30 or 40 more for a _proper _stash.  

And you now have firsthand experience why we I trash-talk GE's.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ever heard of letting the tubes cool before changing them?



I've heard of that before, but thought it was just another urban myth.      

https://www.amazon.com/Ove-Glove-Re...ild=1&keywords=ov+glove&qid=1616703715&sr=8-6


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ever heard of letting the tubes cool before changing them?
> That table is the property of my group as well as the music that goes along with it, I am no longer the President but I will see if I can at least get you the terms with descriptions. The music was recorded for our test sessions and without artist approval the music stays with us unfortunately.


Thought I would be doing a hot swap blind A/B comparison 🤭
No worries about the table, I should come up with something and will use my Audiophile reference DSD tracks from Focal, B&W, Marantz, Naim and Mcintosch


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe play the same musical passage each time.  Then imagine doing the same thing for 52 tubes instead of 10. My group uses a scoring system so we can try to objectively rate each tube on the same criteria (we use 25), and we use a large group since there is an accuracy in numbers.  I have a pretty good idea of the point rating on the RCA grey glass.



Just curious when you do the blind A/B for your group.  How long in between do you pause when switching tubes out to repeat the same musical passage?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I liked that gray glass RCA a lot myself.  IIRC, it was one of my 2 most favorite in the group of nine that @Paladin79 sent me.  Hadn't ever heard one before that so I couldn't (correctly) identify it, but I now have 3 in my own stash.  I know, I know....3 is just a small party and I need 30 or 40 more for a _proper _stash.
> 
> And you now have firsthand experience why we I trash-talk GE's.  LOL!!


Hoarding would be a more appropriate term in this case. 😊 and yes I understand the special place this tube is filling as am falling for it.
And GE is a good manufacturer of power generators and medical equipments 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 25, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Just curious when you do the blind A/B for your group.  How long in between do you pause when switching tubes out to repeat the same musical passage?


We will A/B test four tubes at a time using four amps I designed and built, Senn Hd 800 headphones and a quad of matched Tung Sol 5998's. We try to go through the whole group on four tubes, then change tubes and do the next four.  Tubes are numbered 1-52. We have audio engineers checking and matching all sound levels, there are usually five or six of us behind the scenes but those doing the swapping are not involved in any grading to preserve the blind testing. The tracks we use take a little under 15 minutes for the 25 criterion so we do this over two days and try to get it done within 16 hours. Change time between sets of tubes can be ten to 15 minutes since levels are checked and the tubes are given time to warm up again. Other amps are in the back warming tubes and they are swapped fairly hot. The tubes have already been listened to by eight of us blind in order to even make the final 52 and all tubes have at least 24 hours burn in. Once the initial listening is done, scores are tallied and the top eight or so tubes are compared head to head. No sense doing this for tubes that did not finish high enough cause no one really cares if tube ranked 48 might do better than one ranked 47th.  Sorry if this sounds confusing, I was always taught it takes about two minutes for the ears to adjust to a particular sound. We have some highly skilled people setting this up as well as mathematicians who help with the statistics. In the end I believe the top five tubes are given to whomever donated the most tubes that made the final 52, second most gets the next five but we need to vote on that.

I generally say 6sn7 equivalents because if 6j5's make the grade or 7A4's, they will be concealed just like the 6sn7's. My design was to allow for that. When I sent Bill tubes and Jason at Schiit, I had to stick with the standard style 6sn7's, no PSvane even.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> We will A/B test four tubes at a time using four amps I designed and built, Senn Hd 800 headphones and a quad of matched Tung Sol 5998's. We try to go through the whole group on four tubes, then change tubes and do the next four.  Tubes are numbered 1-52. We have audio engineers checking and matching all sound levels, there are usually five or six of us behind the scenes but those doing the swapping are not involved in any grading to preserve the blind testing. The tracks we use take a little under 15 minutes for the 25 criterion so we do this over two days and try to get it done within 16 hours. Change time between sets of tubes can be ten to 15 minutes since levels are checked and the tubes are given time to warm up again. Other amps are in the back warming tubes and they are swapped fairly hot. The tubes have already been listened to by eight of us blind in order to even make the final 52 and all tubes have at least 24 hours burn in. Once the initial listening is done, scores are tallied and the top eight or so tubes are compared head to head. No sense doing this for tubes that did not finish high enough cause no one really cares if tube ranked 48 might do better than one ranked 47th.  Sorry if this sounds confusing, I was always taught it takes about two minutes for the ears to adjust to a particular sound. We have some highly skilled people setting this up as well as mathematicians who help with the statistics. In the end I believe the top five tubes are given to whomever donated the most tubes that made the final 52, second most gets the next five but we need to vote on that.
> 
> I generally say 6sn7 equivalents because if 6j5's make the grade or 7A4's, they will be concealed just like the 6sn7's. My design was to allow for that. When I sent Bill tubes and Jason at Schiit, I had to stick with the standard style 6sn7's, no PSvane even.


Respect ✊ 
🎩 off


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Respect ✊
> 🎩 off


After doing blind tests with various people, I really started to wonder how a $20 tube might do or if a Bad Boy would make the grade. Knowing you just bought a tube for $100 or $500 or $1,000 because a half a dozen guys rave about a specific tube can give a person anticipation bias. Even when I get a tube I think is amazing I might send it on to a dozen other people to see what they think. @bcowen and @Ripper2860 heard one such tube. There are many tubes spoken about in high regard and in order to get 52 we probably purchased 300 types. Various Tung Sol's, RCA's, Ken Rads, GEC's, Brimar's. We did not choose tubes too closely alike from the same brands. 

Mind you we have to be sure everyone stays healthy having that many folks in a room swapping headphones, that is the reason this has been put on hold.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Change time between sets of tubes can be ten to 15 minutes...........I was always taught it takes about two minutes for the ears to adjust to a particular sound.



Your process and approach is indeed very thorough.  Yes - I was wondering about this - the spacing in between switching out tubes, I would imagine would be akin to cleansing one's palate when doing a taste taste.  But it's cool that there is enough time in-between listening to reset so to speak.

I'm thinking now how interesting it would be to conduct a hearing test - setting (high) bias expectations on known poorly sounding tubes and see if it makes a difference - would users rate a lowly GE tube alot higher, if they thought it was an RCA Gray Glass for example?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Your process and approach is indeed very thorough.  Yes - I was wondering about this - the spacing in between switching out tubes, I would imagine would be akin to cleansing one's palate when doing a taste taste.  But it's cool that there is enough time in-between listening to reset so to speak.
> 
> I'm thinking now how interesting it would be to conduct a hearing test - setting (high) bias expectations on known poorly sounding tubes and see if it makes a difference - would users rate a lowly GE tube alot higher, if they thought it was an RCA Gray Glass for example?


Many of the final 50 listening have no idea about tube brands but they know what a violin or piano should sound like. Some the whole orchestra.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Hoarding *Collecting* would be a more appropriate term in this case. 😊 and yes I understand the special place this tube is filling as am falling for it.
> And GE is a good manufacturer of power generators and medical equipments 😂😂😂


Here....fixed this for you.    

And GE also makes good jet engines.  I haven't died in a plane crashing due to a GE engine failure (at least that I know of).    Just stay away from their tubes and appliances.  My house was full of GE kitchen appliances when I bought it, and every single one of them has died....waaaaaaaay before they rightly should have.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you.
> 
> And GE also makes good jet engines.  I haven't died in a plane crashing due to a GE engine failure (at least that I know of).    Just stay away from their tubes and appliances.  My house was full of GE kitchen appliances when I bought it, and every single one of them has died....waaaaaaaay before they rightly should have.


When did you buy your house? I bought mine in 2008 and it had a GE stove, oven and I bought a GE profile SS fridge. Still have all three so I must have had their anomalies...It did have a GE microwave but that bit the dust about 5 years ago.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> When did you buy your house? I bought mine in 2008 and it had a GE stove, oven and I bought a GE profile SS fridge. Still have all three so I must have had their anomalies...It did have a GE microwave but that bit the dust about 5 years ago.


I bought mine about 6 years ago. It was built in 2001, but a couple years before we bought it the previous owners had completely redone the kitchen which included all new GE stainless appliances. The first week after we moved in, the microwave died.  Two weeks later, the main heating element in the oven went out.  Then about a month later I walk into the kitchen to find a growing lake of water on the floor.  The internal water tank in the 'fridge (to pre-chill the water for the door dispenser) split completely in half so water was just pouring out. Fortunately I caught it just as it was happening and avoided some serious water damage. Then a couple weeks later the main pump in the dishwasher quit, and a few weeks later smoke started pouring out of the garbage disposal (and it wasn't seized up or anything to cause it).  In short, within the first 3 months of buying this house every single GE appliance died...and in less than 3 years from the date of original purchase.  Fortunately we had a home warranty that was included with the home purchase, so I only had to pay a $50 deductible for each one. The service company repaired the oven and 'fridge, but just replaced the rest with new units...and they are NOT GE's.  

And at the risk of continuing the GE bash, my brother-in-law is a career GE guy (though most of his years have been spent in aircraft engines), but my sister (his wife) will not allow GE appliances in her house even though he can get them at a big discount.  LOL!


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 26, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> We will A/B test four tubes at a time using four amps I designed and built, Senn Hd 800 headphones and a quad of matched Tung Sol 5998's. We try to go through the whole group on four tubes, then change tubes and do the next four.  Tubes are numbered 1-52. We have audio engineers checking and matching all sound levels, there are usually five or six of us behind the scenes but those doing the swapping are not involved in any grading to preserve the blind testing. The tracks we use take a little under 15 minutes for the 25 criterion so we do this over two days and try to get it done within 16 hours. Change time between sets of tubes can be ten to 15 minutes since levels are checked and the tubes are given time to warm up again. Other amps are in the back warming tubes and they are swapped fairly hot. The tubes have already been listened to by eight of us blind in order to even make the final 52 and all tubes have at least 24 hours burn in. Once the initial listening is done, scores are tallied and the top eight or so tubes are compared head to head. No sense doing this for tubes that did not finish high enough cause no one really cares if tube ranked 48 might do better than one ranked 47th.  Sorry if this sounds confusing, I was always taught it takes about two minutes for the ears to adjust to a particular sound. We have some highly skilled people setting this up as well as mathematicians who help with the statistics. In the end I believe the top five tubes are given to whomever donated the most tubes that made the final 52, second most gets the next five but we need to vote on that.
> 
> I generally say 6sn7 equivalents because if 6j5's make the grade or 7A4's, they will be concealed just like the 6sn7's. My design was to allow for that. When I sent Bill tubes and Jason at Schiit, I had to stick with the standard style 6sn7's, no PSvane even.


Well that's a very professional process with lots of talented people involved. Is it a one time process or repeated periodically as probably most of the tested tubes already exists as long as you are not testing newly manufactured ones ?
Can't help not being *curious 🧐🧐*about the final full list of such tests as this process sound meticulous and kind of reduce the human personal perception with so many people involved in testing. But again tubes does not sound the exact same plugged to different amps as most amp manufacturer tune their circuit around a given tube to reduce hum, noise etc. Alex Cavalli amps are such an example.
Ever thought of conducting a similar scientific quantitative tube test using reference equipment instead of human ears (not sure if it's feasible though, just a thought) ? Results could be interesting but probably not the same as the process you described as the final important recipient is human ears and that's what matters.
After all tube testing sounds very similar to single malt tasting (always fancied the job of a Master sommelier but I would have to move to Scotland in this case 🙂).
Good brands always stands out but it all comes at the end to personal preference. Cheers 🥃🥃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> After doing blind tests with various people, I really started to wonder how a $20 tube might do or if a Bad Boy would make the grade. Knowing you just bought a tube for $100 or $500 or $1,000 because a half a dozen guys rave about a specific tube can give a person anticipation bias. Even when I get a tube I think is amazing I might send it on to a dozen other people to see what they think. @bcowen and @Ripper2860 heard one such tube. There are many tubes spoken about in high regard and in order to get 52 we probably purchased 300 types. Various Tung Sol's, RCA's, Ken Rads, GEC's, Brimar's. We did not choose tubes too closely alike from the same brands.
> 
> Mind you we have to be sure everyone stays healthy having that many folks in a room swapping headphones, that is the reason this has been put on hold.


If such results are published, most probably the cheap blind tested tube scoring very high will ends up getting more expensive and the same backward theory would also affect the expensive one if it scores low. My 2 Cents
Would be interesting to know if blind testing some expensive vs cheap tubes ever yielded contradicting results.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you.
> 
> And GE also makes good jet engines.  I haven't died in a plane crashing due to a GE engine failure (at least that I know of).    Just stay away from their tubes and appliances.  My house was full of GE kitchen appliances when I bought it, and every single one of them has died....waaaaaaaay before they rightly should have.


And this F%#@*& Kelvinator "Sphynx" fridge we bought 25 years ago refuses to let go and surviving the test of time while we fancy getting a new one  
Should have bought a GE fridge instead 😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I bought mine about 6 years ago. It was built in 2001, but a couple years before we bought it the previous owners had completely redone the kitchen which included all new GE stainless appliances. The first week after we moved in, the microwave died.  Two weeks later, the main heating element in the oven went out.  Then about a month later I walk into the kitchen to find a growing lake of water on the floor.  The internal water tank in the 'fridge (to pre-chill the water for the door dispenser) split completely in half so water was just pouring out. Fortunately I caught it just as it was happening and avoided some serious water damage. Then a couple weeks later the main pump in the dishwasher quit, and a few weeks later smoke started pouring out of the garbage disposal (and it wasn't seized up or anything to cause it).  In short, within the first 3 months of buying this house every single GE appliance died...and in less than 3 years from the date of original purchase.  Fortunately we had a home warranty that was included with the home purchase, so I only had to pay a $50 deductible for each one. The service company repaired the oven and 'fridge, but just replaced the rest with new units...and they are NOT GE's.
> 
> And at the risk of continuing the GE bash, my brother-in-law is a career GE guy (though most of his years have been spent in aircraft engines), but my sister (his wife) will not allow GE appliances in her house even though he can get them at a big discount.  LOL!


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091541/


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well that's a very professional process with lots of talented people involved. Is it a one time process or repeated periodically as probably most of the tested tubes already exists as long as you are not testing newly manufactured ones ?
> Can't help not being *curious 🧐🧐*about the final full list of such tests as this process sound meticulous and kind of reduce the human personal perception with so many people involved in testing. But again tubes does not sound the exact same plugged to different amps as most amp manufacturer tune their circuit around a given tube to reduce hum, noise etc. Alex Cavalli amps are such an example.
> Ever thought of conducting a similar scientific quantitative tube test using reference equipment instead of human ears (not sure if it's feasible though, just a thought) ? Results could be interesting but probably not the same as the process you described as the final important recipient is human ears and that's what matters.
> After all tube testing sounds very similar to single malt tasting (always fancied the job of a Master sommelier but I would have to move to Scotland in this case 🙂).
> Good brands always stands out but it all comes at the end to personal preference. Cheers 🥃🥃


So many people testing increases the odds of accuracy and this is strictly listening so I would think the human experience is involved lol.  This article calls it the wisdom of crowds.
https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/the-wisdom-of-crowds/

Now in our DAC testing one young lady had the final results right, we only did about 20 DAC's as I recall, but she picked the exact order the group picked. I had two of them turned around and as far as value. One $500 DAC scored well above its weight in beating out dacs worth four or five times as much. Some that are raved about in threads on here finished in the middle. We did that testing with the same amp, pre-amp and speakers. Headphones take considerably longer but, It is a better way to really hear tubes IMHO>

I have done some testing with equipment particularly when I set out to prove it was the solder involved that caused Fotons to differ drastically over the first 100 hours. Testing can tell you some things but the human ear is better.

  I have access to any equipment I need if I do not already own it. As far as new tubes hitting the market, we did run Russian and Chinese new production tubes and I believe one or two PSvanes may have made the final 52. This should be a one time thing unless some of the new production tubes rate really high but see down the road at least eight or so of us can assign a number value to any new tube. After this we are moving on to tube headphone amps as far as I know, we have already done DAC testing but that was about two years ago. Bill or Ripper can comment more but see I designed the amps to show off the 6sn7 sound and most all involved said I accomplished that. Along the way people liked the sound so I sold some to cover costs as well as donating a total of seven of them. If anyone else wants to try this with other amps, go for it. So far we have spent close to $15k on tubes alone and possess most any 6sn7 or equivalent known to man.

As I said earlier I do not run the group now, we change every few years so it is not up to me to release info, it is just not my call.  The results are more for this particular group, the last thing I want to do is post something and get in arguments with individuals who say a particular tube is worth the $1,000 they spent when we may have it at number 51 or such lol.  DAC's would be even worse, we limited our testing to DACS at $5,000 or under I believe, some in the group have some that are $10,000 up and it would be pretty disappointing to spend that and not finish toward the top.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> If such results are published, most probably the cheap blind tested tube scoring very high will ends up getting more expensive and the same backward theory would also affect the expensive one if it scores low. My 2 Cents
> Would be interesting to know if blind testing some expensive vs cheap tubes ever yielded contradicting results.


Blind testing eliminates bias and with some tubes there has been a lot of hype. Ever hear of a Bad Boy, three hole plates, then two hold plates. Now the Russians are starting to run low on what was termed 1578's so they try to sell other Melz for similar money. Much of it is supply and demand, there are getting to be fewer old tubes of quality out there.

One thing that should be remembered and I have seen plenty of individual assessments of tubes, is that generally three or four terms are applied. Great mids, great bass, wonderful spacing, whatever.  This testing causes a person to listen to 25 aspects every single time, and score all 25. A tube might be low in one area but extremely high in others. We are testing the over all performance of each and every tube and all data is recorded. If a tube rates above 90 it should be very good overall, not just a slamming bass.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 26, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Blind testing eliminates bias and with some tubes there has been a lot of hype. Ever hear of a Bad Boy, three hole plates, then two hold plates. Now the Russians are starting to run low on what was termed 1578's so they try to sell other Melz for similar money. Much of it is supply and demand, there are getting to be fewer old tubes of quality out there.


Good points. I do believe a tube's price is in direct relation to discussion on this and other forums. It seems the more a tube is "talked about as quality" the more the price is driven up on sites like eBay. You can almost connect the dots...except in the case of GE tubes of course.  

This is why I do not like to discuss new tubes I am trying out that others haven't until I have had a chance to hoard collect a few specimens for myself.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Many of the final 50 listening have no idea about tube brands but they know what a violin or piano should sound like. Some the whole orchestra.



This is on point.  I am a former violinist. It's a treat at times to listen to impressions from other musicians and such - the perspective is pretty profound in that respect after being in that immersive environment for some time.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> This is on point.  I am a former violinist. It's a treat at times to listen to impressions from other musicians and such - the perspective is pretty profound in that respect after being in that immersive environment for some time.


You would know the name Joshua Bell, he comes out of the local university school of music.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Good points. I do believe a tube's price is in direct relation to discussion on this and other forums. It seems the more a tube is "talked about as quality" the more the price is driven up on sites like eBay. You can almost connect the dots...except in the case of GE tubes of course.
> 
> This is why I do not like to discuss new tubes I am trying out that others haven't until I have had a chance to hoard collect a few specimens for myself.


In our tests all tubes are treated the same, the test group will never know what they are at the time of testing, not even the shape. Most in the test groups have no idea what a Tung Sol or GEC is lol. I picked up some very rare Melz for $35 each because no one really knew much about them.  One is within three of the top last I heard but that was just the preliminary test to make the final 52. It could end up higher or lower as more people listen.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> So many people testing increases the odds of accuracy and this is strictly listening so I would think the human experience is involved lol.  This article calls it the wisdom of crowds.
> https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/the-wisdom-of-crowds/
> 
> Now in our DAC testing one young lady had the final results right, we only did about 20 DAC's as I recall, but she picked the exact order the group picked. I had two of them turned around and as far as value. One $500 DAC scored well above its weight in beating out dacs worth four or five times as much. Some that are raved about in threads on here finished in the middle. We did that testing with the same amp, pre-amp and speakers. Headphones take considerably longer but, It is a better way to really hear tubes IMHO>
> ...


Good that you tested tubes on amps of your creation which should give a non biased technical platform to all tubes, coz all headphone amps manufacturers build their amps around a given tube and tuning it around a certain headphones (Sennheiser engineers build and tested the HD800S around an SS Violectric V200).
The wisdom of the crowds theory makes lots of sense and posting tubes, DACs, speakers or amps rating would get you into an endless debate with even manufacturer.
Long time ago I was discussing with the late Dr. Amar Bose about THX certification by George Lucas and why not he use it, He got so furious about it and told me "Who is Mr. Lucas to certify my products it's just a marketing logo and my equipment score much higher than his certification requirements"  
In the case of DACs, the chipset used is as good as the architecture around it.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> You would know the name Joshua Bell, he comes out of the local university school of music.


Yes absolutely.  Incredible - probably one of the best on this planet.  People who don't know him should check him out.    I was absolutely aghast watching a video of him busking in a subway and only few people stopped.  LOL.  Very cool he comes from your area.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Blind testing eliminates bias and with some tubes there has been a lot of hype. Ever hear of a Bad Boy, three hole plates, then two hold plates. Now the Russians are starting to run low on what was termed 1578's so they try to sell other Melz for similar money. Much of it is supply and demand, there are getting to be fewer old tubes of quality out there.
> 
> One thing that should be remembered and I have seen plenty of individual assessments of tubes, is that generally three or four terms are applied. Great mids, great bass, wonderful spacing, whatever.  This testing causes a person to listen to 25 aspects every single time, and score all 25. A tube might be low in one area but extremely high in others. We are testing the over all performance of each and every tube and all data is recorded. If a tube rates above 90 it should be very good overall, not just a slamming bass.


Sadly good old stock is definitely diminishing with time especially with diminishing life span due to use, wear and tear. Good though the build was solid then with good materials used.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Blind testing eliminates bias and with some tubes there has been a lot of hype. Ever hear of a Bad Boy, three hole plates, then two hold plates. Now the Russians are starting to run low on what was termed 1578's so they try to sell other Melz for similar money. Much of it is supply and demand, there are getting to be fewer old tubes of quality out there.
> 
> One thing that should be remembered and I have seen plenty of individual assessments of tubes, is that generally three or four terms are applied. Great mids, great bass, wonderful spacing, whatever.  This testing causes a person to listen to 25 aspects every single time, and score all 25. A tube might be low in one area but extremely high in others. We are testing the over all performance of each and every tube and all data is recorded. If a tube rates above 90 it should be very good overall, not just a slamming bass.


Again am tempted to ask @bcowen for assistance to sneak around your house to check the final scoring of those tubes 🤐🤐🤐


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Good points. I do believe a tube's price is in direct relation to discussion on this and other forums. It seems the more a tube is "talked about as quality" the more the price is driven up on sites like eBay. You can almost connect the dots...except in the case of GE tubes of course.
> 
> This is why I do not like to discuss new tubes I am trying out that others haven't until I have had a chance to hoard collect a few specimens for myself.


That would eliminate the biasing factor 👍 and it certainly expose your hoarding tendencies lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> In our tests all tubes are treated the same, the test group will never know what they are at the time of testing, not even the shape. Most in the test groups have no idea what a Tung Sol or GEC is lol. I picked up some very rare Melz for $35 each because no one really knew much about them.  One is within three of the top last I heard but that was just the preliminary test to make the final 52. It could end up higher or lower as more people listen.


mmm was 1 of those Melz included in my package ? coz it really stands out


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> mmm was 1 of those Melz included in my package ? coz it really stands out


Nope, I do not turn loose of those, it took six months to find a few. I let Bill and Ripper hear one and a few other friends. Bill used to be a friend that is, till he insulted Finnegan!!!  I let Bill borrow one long enough to get his finger prints on it, those might prove handy one day.  Try to imagine the Melz you have sounding wonderful across the board and balanced in such a way that bass or mids are not overpowering and the highs just keep climbing and climbing till they softly fade away. I can hear that with the Utopias, other headphones always seemed like they had a ceiling, HD800s do a decent job as well.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Good that you tested tubes on amps of your creation which should give a non biased technical platform to all tubes, coz all headphone amps manufacturers build their amps around a given tube and tuning it around a certain headphones (Sennheiser engineers build and tested the HD800S around an SS Violectric V200).
> The wisdom of the crowds theory makes lots of sense and posting tubes, DACs, speakers or amps rating would get you into an endless debate with even manufacturer.
> Long time ago I was discussing with the late Dr. Amar Bose about THX certification by George Lucas and why not he use it, He got so furious about it and told me "Who is Mr. Lucas to certify my products it's just a marketing logo and my equipment score much higher than his certification requirements"
> In the case of DACs, the chipset used is as good as the architecture around it.


You are correct about DACS, and while we use HD800's for testing, my personal favorite with an Incubus amp are Focal Utopias. The group is using some of my early design, I have made refinements in those I build for others. Yes amps are designed around specific tubes yet like DACS much can be done with the input and output circuitry as well as the parameters one sets for the tubes operation. I do not design Swiss army knife amps, I would rather do something really well than allow it to be used for a lot of different tubes but each to their own. There are plenty of Headphone amps that do not allow me to tell much difference in which 6sn7 is used so I needed to get away from that for our current testing.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Yes absolutely.  Incredible - probably one of the best on this planet.  People who don't know him should check him out.    I was absolutely aghast watching a video of him busking in a subway and only few people stopped.  LOL.  Very cool he comes from your area.


Education: Indiana University Jacobs School of Music, Indiana University, Bloomington High School North

My kids went to a different high school here. My son considered the school of music but settled on computer science. I saw that video about Bell, also his work with movie soundtracks is pretty impressive. 

Bell performed the violin solo for the Oscar-winning soundtrack for 'The Red Violin' and was also featured in the scores for 'Ladies in Lavender', 'Angels & Demons', 'Iris' and 'Defiance'.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 26, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, I do not turn loose of those, it took six months to find a few. I let Bill and Ripper hear one and a few other friends. Bill used to be a friend that is, till he insulted Finnegan!!!  I let Bill borrow one long enough to get his finger prints on it, those might prove handy one day.  Try to imagine the Melz you have sounding wonderful across the board and balanced in such a way that bass or mids are not overpowering and the highs just keep climbing and climbing till they softly fade away. I can hear that with the Utopias, other headphones always seemed like they had a ceiling, HD800s do a decent job as well.


Well you precisely pinpointed how the Melz sounds and the Focal Elear does a good job in showing it. Only when I lost hope in fixing my primary defective Elear and bought the Hifiman Ananda which made me really love how Planars sound, Focal honored the warranty with 2 new drivers and along with the DV made me re-think the planar vs dynamic cans arena positioning.
So far, the tendency is growing in either getting higher grade RCAs & Melz if you can recommend any or going rogue and pull the trigger on a WOO WA6. 🙄🙄
And get the tube back from @bcowen, a single hair can frame him 😁in whatever evil plans you may have for him lol


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> You are correct about DACS, and while we use HD800's for testing, my personal favorite with an Incubus amp are Focal Utopias. The group is using some of my early design, I have made refinements in those I build for others. Yes amps are designed around specific tubes yet like DACS much can be done with the input and output circuitry as well as the parameters one sets for the tubes operation. I do not design Swiss army knife amps, I would rather do something really well than allow it to be used for a lot of different tubes but each to their own. There are plenty of Headphone amps that do not allow me to tell much difference in which 6sn7 is used so I needed to get away from that for our current testing.


@Paladin79 - Not sure if you mentioned what DACs were used or if you can even say but were Topping DACs used in the mix for testing?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

Galapac said:


> @Paladin79 - Not sure if you mentioned what DACs were used or if you can even say but were Topping DACs used in the mix for testing?


One for sure, a DX 7 I believe and it finished 5th or 6th, well above more expensive DACs. As I recall I had it rated one place higher than the group outcome.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Well you precisely pinpointed how the Melz sounds and the Focal Elear does a good job in showing it. Only when I lost hope in fixing my primary defective Elear and bought the Hifiman Ananda which made me really love how Planars sound, Focal honored the warranty with 2 new drivers and along with the DV made me re-think the planar vs dynamic cans arena positioning.
> So far, the tendency is growing in either getting higher grade RCAs & Melz if you can recommend any or going rogue and pull the trigger on a WOO WA6. 🙄🙄
> And get the tube back from @bcowen, a single hair can frame him 😁in whatever evil plans you may have for him lol


I can certainly point out Melz, the RCA grey glass is a very good tube. Some of the Melz 1578 style have pronounced mids, I like the 1963 or older and I have plenty from the 70’s and 80’s.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6N8S-6...560544?hash=item343b527ae0:g:rx0AAOSwWNRgFTE9

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-MELZ-6N...160221?hash=item3d3734019d:g:DrUAAOSw1nNgR7HV

Here is one of the 63's

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...230235?hash=item28290a431b:g:4XgAAOSwUKxYeu1A


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Well you precisely pinpointed how the Melz sounds and the Focal Elear does a good job in showing it. Only when I lost hope in fixing my primary defective Elear and bought the Hifiman Ananda which made me really love how Planars sound, Focal honored the warranty with 2 new drivers and along with the DV made me re-think the planar vs dynamic cans arena positioning.
> So far, the tendency is growing in either getting higher grade RCAs & Melz if you can recommend any or going rogue and pull the trigger on a WOO WA6. 🙄🙄
> And get the tube back from @bcowen, a single hair can frame him 😁in whatever evil plans you may have for him lol


Oh I got the tube back from Bill, I may have sent it to a half dozen people as well as many local friends. One is in the 52 tube test of course.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 26, 2021)

As a show of good faith on my part that I really don't hoard...here is a good deal from a fellow member on Head-Fi selling some choice 6SN7 tubes that he is willing to piece out. The Ken Rad and Tung-Sol look especially sweet!

Looking at you @HTSkywalker 

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/five-6sn7-military-tubes-single.152/


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> As a show of good faith on my part that I really don't hoard...here is a good deal from a fellow member on Head-Fi selling some choice 6SN7 tubes that he is willing to piece out. The Ken Rad and Tung-Sol look especially sweet!
> 
> Looking at you @HTSkywalker
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/five-6sn7-military-tubes-single.152/


Thanks @Galapac 
Will do more listening but direction maybe Melz and RCA while keeping my choices open about the WOO


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Again am tempted to ask @bcowen for assistance to sneak around your house to check the final scoring of those tubes 🤐🤐🤐


I was going to do that, but couldn't figure out where to start.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was going to do that, but couldn't figure out where to start.


Did you eat the last cupcake??? I was saving that!!!


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> I was going to do that, but couldn't figure out where to start.


He just really hates doing dishes...rolls of paper towels way in back of pic...unused of course


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Did you eat the last cupcake??? I was saving that!!!


Yes, and I'm so sorry.  I didn't even realize it was a cupcake until I'd scraped off the top layer of mold.  Next time put a post-it note or something on it, would you?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, and I'm so sorry.  I didn't even realize it was a cupcake until I'd scraped off the top layer of mold.  Next time put a post-it note or something on it, would you?


To think I accepted your Linkedin invite, maybe I can unfriend you on there. If you show up around here and Finnegan sees you, it is best you just play dead. He got under the covers and attacked my feet this morn and any movement just made him attack more. And he likes me, you, not so much.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> To think I accepted your Linkedin invite, maybe I can unfriend you on there. If you show up around here and Finnegan sees you, it is best you just play dead. He got under the covers and attacked my feet this morn and any movement just made him attack more. And he likes me, you, not so much.


Fine I'll bring my ferocious watch-cat along with me.  She weighs almost 6 pounds, and kills Grizzlies, mountain lions, and wild boars in her spare time.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I was going to do that, but couldn't figure out where to start.


This makes re-creating the tube testing lab done by @Paladin79 a very easy task compared to passing through this zone 😝😝


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Did you eat the last cupcake??? I was saving that!!!


Well if you can spot a pancake in this photo, you can claim the secret prize 🤣🤣


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> You are correct about DACS, and while we use HD800's for testing, my personal favorite with an Incubus amp are Focal Utopias. The group is using some of my early design, I have made refinements in those I build for others. Yes amps are designed around specific tubes yet like DACS much can be done with the input and output circuitry as well as the parameters one sets for the tubes operation. I do not design Swiss army knife amps, I would rather do something really well than allow it to be used for a lot of different tubes but each to their own. There are plenty of Headphone amps that do not allow me to tell much difference in which 6sn7 is used so I needed to get away from that for our current testing.


get a tube DAC !!!


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> get a tube DAC !!!


Got any brands or models you have tried?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Fine I'll bring my ferocious watch-cat along with me.  She weighs almost 6 pounds, and kills Grizzlies, mountain lions, and wild boars in her spare time.


And chews hot tubes for snacks...


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I was going to do that, but couldn't figure out where to start.


This house obviously has GE vacuum cleaner, dishwasher and trash compactor which are, in usual fashion, on the blink...


----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


> get a tube DAC !!!





Paladin79 said:


> Got any brands or models you have tried?


If one is evaluating and comparing tubes for headphone amplifiers, why complicate the testing with more tubes further up the equipment chain? I suggest a DAC of the non-over-sampling, resistor-to-resistor variety. Mojo Audio EVO Mystique is what I use.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 26, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> If one is evaluating and comparing tubes for headphone amplifiers, why complicate the testing with more tubes further up the equipment chain? I suggest a DAC of the non-over-sampling, resistor-to-resistor variety. Mojo Audio EVO Mystique is what I use.


I agree. In our setup we generally use an Aqua La Voce S3, it won our DAC challenge. For home listening it would be different perhaps but I like that DAC😺

No digital filtering, check out the specs.  It won by a fairly large margin over 19 other DAC’s.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I agree. In our setup we generally use an Aqua La Voce S3, it won our DAC challenge. For home listening it would be different perhaps but I like that DAC😺
> 
> No digital filtering, check out the specs.  It won by a fairly large margin over 19 other DAC’s.


I can only imagine how excellent that aqua la voce s3 sounds.   Im not surprised its tops on the list.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I can only imagine how excellent that aqua la voce s3 sounds.   Im not surprised its tops on the list.


We also had a gentleman who specializes in digital recording run some tests against it and the top four. It was amazing there as well. Choosing a DAC was the easy part.😁


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I agree. In our setup we generally use an Aqua La Voce S3, it won our DAC challenge. For home listening it would be different perhaps but I like that DAC😺
> 
> No digital filtering, check out the specs.  It won by a fairly large margin over 19 other DAC’s.


Excellent choice !


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Excellent choice !


Believe it or not, we put some thought into this lol. I even made the cables and the splitter. I did something similar for Schiit Audio.


----------



## Galapac

I heard great things about the Chord Hugo TT2 as well as the Aqua La Voce S3 but I’m not quite there in my life to own either. I hope to trade up one day to one of these fine pieces.

...and then there is the DAVE....


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I heard great things about the Chord Hugo TT2 as well as the Aqua La Voce S3 but I’m not quite there in my life to own either. I hope to trade up one day to one of these fine pieces.
> 
> ...and then there is the DAVE....


We had a Chord Hugo in the test group, it did ok, above the middle anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I agree. In our setup we generally use an Aqua La Voce S3, it won our DAC challenge. For home listening it would be different perhaps but I like that DAC😺
> 
> No digital filtering, check out the specs.  It won by a fairly large margin over 19 other DAC’s.


The Cary DAC-100t in the big rig.  Uses a pair of 6922's in the output stage.  Kind of a tube DAC.  More "there-ness" in the mids, and more tone in the highs than the BiFrost 2, of course it retails for 3x the price, and it's 3x the size too.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The Cary DAC-100t in the big rig.  Uses a pair of 6922's in the output stage.  Kind of a tube DAC.  More "there-ness" in the mids, and more tone in the highs than the BiFrost 2, of course it retails for 3x the price, and it's 3x the size too.


Do you ever swap out the 6922 for, say, Amperex PQ 7308, Brimar CV 2492 etc.?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Do you ever swap out the 6922 for, say, Amperex PQ 7308, Brimar CV 2492 etc.?


I've swapped quite a few, but not a huge amount.  A pair of early '60's Tungsrams in there right now that sound quite nice.  The Cary by nature is a bit on the warm side, and the Tungsrams bring a nice balance of liveliness and energy.  It came stock with Sovteks and boy did those suck.  Not quite as bad as a GE, but they weren't far off.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 27, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Excellent choice !


A Chord was mentioned, it finished third. The Topping came in at number six.

Today I am back to amp building.

I really do like the logic of not putting a tube DAC in the chain for the 6sn7 equivalent testing. We already have power tubes of course and we wanted as clean a signal as we could get coming to the Incubus amp with little coloration. That being said I love tubes as well as Class A amps but even in my home setup I have run a Topping, Bifrost 2, Gungnir, and Aqua La Voce (borrowed). I am using a tube pre-amp and power amp so I have enough tubes to experiment with in order to reach the type of sound I like. One day I may get a tube DAC but right now I have more pressing things to think about, like getting my shop back. 

@bcowen should be able to attest to the fact that the Incubus is a pretty revealing amp for my experiments. The HD 800's are very accurate headphones and fit our needs. I would love to put Focal Utopias at the four test stations but $16,000 is a bit much, and several local audiophiles are lending their 800's so we only had to buy one pair, used.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> A Chord was mentioned, it finished third. The Topping came in at number six.
> 
> Today I am back to amp building.
> 
> ...


Naked transformer? I like it.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Naked transformer? I like it.


For now, the transformer cover will go on later. I was not happy with the cabinet so I started another. All the electronics is done except for hooking up pots and jacks and running final tests. This one is for a friend in Georgia. Most likely I will give him a Svetlana winged C and a 50’s Foton 6SN7 equivalent.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Naked transformer? I like it.



Why'd you have to ruin that by appending 'transformer'?


----------



## bcowen

My last boss!  Scott Adams must have met him.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> For now, the transformer cover will go on later. I was not happy with the cabinet so I started another. All the electronics is done except for hooking up pots and jacks and running final tests. This one is for a friend in Georgia. Most likely I will give him a Svetlana winged C and a 50’s Foton 6SN7 equivalent.



Is it like a Soviet-only components build challenge?


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Is it like a Soviet-only components build challenge?


No lol, I need tubes in quantity so I choose quality Russian tubes that are still available. On more expensive builds I use 63 Melz and Tung Sol 5998’s. I also use some Russian military transformers on occasion.


----------



## Mr Trev

Russian military transformer:




More pics here: https://englishrussia.com/2016/04/15/transformers-russian-style/


----------



## Galapac

Mr Trev said:


> Russian military transformer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are cool!

Especially the Russian “Slash” transformer.


----------



## qingcai

Paladin79 said:


> Got any brands or models you have tried?


I just kidding, I dont know any of tube DAC


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 28, 2021)

qingcai said:


> I just kidding, I dont know any of tube DAC


The PrimaLuna EVO 100 is a good contender as well as the Nagra
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac
https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/tube-dac/


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 28, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> The PrimaLuna EVO 100 is a good contender as well as the Nagra
> https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac
> https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/tube-dac/


Primaluna is certainly a great brand, I am not familiar with the Nagra as much. I just never spend much on audio gear or I would consider a PrimaLuna amp and Sonus Faber speakers.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Primaluna is certainly a great brand, I am not familiar with the Nagra as much. I just never spend much on audio gear or I would consider a PrimaLuna amp and Sonus Faber speakers.


Never hear the Sonus Faber but am familiar with the the Magico speakers S & M lines and it’s just mind blowing driven by Mcintosch tube amplifiers MC901


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Never hear the Sonus Faber but am familiar with the the Magico speakers S & M lines and it’s just mind blowing driven by Mcintosch tube amplifiers MC901


https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/collections/#reference

I have heard some of them hooked to a PrimaLuna and Cary amp and I was impressed. I nearly caught a deal on some Klipsch La Scalas but they did not have the cabinet I wanted.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/collections/#reference
> 
> I have heard some of them hooked to a PrimaLuna and Cary amp and I was impressed. I nearly caught a deal on some Klipsch La Scalas but they did not have the cabinet I wanted.


Not every maker can provide the custom @bcowen uni-blue (duke?unc?) cardboard cabinet 😔. The horn speakers in the La Scalas are heavy.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/collections/#reference
> 
> I have heard some of them hooked to a PrimaLuna and Cary amp and I was impressed. I nearly caught a deal on some Klipsch La Scalas but they did not have the cabinet I wanted.


Was considering the Quad ESL 2805 Electrostatic speakers moderately priced but very analytical same like an HD800 cans


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Not every maker can provide the custom @bcowen uni-blue (duke?unc?) cardboard cabinet 😔. The horn speakers in the La Scalas are heavy.


Very true lol.  The use woods like walnut and cherry. Once I get done with my latest amp I have an interesting audio related build in mind. I do need to let the wood dry for 90 days or so but I may do a mock up just to make sure what I am thinking is feasible.


----------



## HTSkywalker

In fact I adore High- Velocity Folded Ribbon (HVFR) in a speaker, sounds so sweet. I have it in my Golden Ear Triton.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Was considering the Quad ESL 2805 Electrostatic speakers moderately priced but very analytical same like an HD800 cans


I have worked on speaker design with a local physicist but I have too many other irons in the fire. Designing my own headphone and speaker amp has kept me away from other interests for some time now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

😍😍😍😍


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not every maker can provide the custom @bcowen uni-blue (duke?unc?) cardboard cabinet 😔. The horn speakers in the La Scalas are heavy.


The weight of the those drivers would require quadruple-wall cardboard.  Now @Paladin79 is one of the most generous people I know, but that would be pushing it even for him.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Was considering the Quad ESL 2805 Electrostatic speakers moderately priced but very analytical same like an HD800 cans


Definite “sweet spot” listening location, classic narrow dispersion...what the 2805 do best (midrange, voices, ambience, cohesion), they do better than nearly any other loudspeaker.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Very true lol.  The use woods like walnut and cherry. Once I get done with my latest amp I have an interesting audio related build in mind. I do need to let the wood dry for 90 days or so but I may do a mock up just to make sure what I am thinking is feasible.


How about an amp with tacky/tasteless formica/diner ‘Chrysler Airflow’ cabinetry?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> How about an amp with tacky/tasteless formica/diner ‘Chrysler Airflow’ cabinetry?


He's working on one like that for @Ripper2860 .  Ripper wanted something that would blend with the rest of his decor.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> How about an amp with tacky/tasteless formica/diner ‘Chrysler Airflow’ cabinetry?


I already made @bcowen his amp, I can only do so much tacky lol. I did gift him a nice DV extension though so he should not be bothering me with such things for at least a month or so.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> He's working on one like that for @Ripper2860 .  Ripper wanted something that would blend with the rest of his decor.


The formica diner finish should fit right in (deja vu):


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> A Chord was mentioned, it finished third. The Topping came in at number six.
> 
> Today I am back to amp building.
> 
> ...


Always wondered what the transformer looked like.... The screws used to house the cover are a chore to remove..I gave up after the third attempt.. The Darkvoice is awaiting new resistors so enjoying the Incubus till then.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Always wondered what the transformer looked like.... The screws used to house the cover are a chore to remove..I gave up after the third attempt.. The Darkvoice is awaiting new resistors so enjoying the Incubus till then.


A hammer and chisel worked well on the screws in mine.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I already made @bcowen his amp, I can only do so much tacky lol. I did gift him a nice DV extension though so he should not be bothering me with such things for at least a month or so.


I sent you my list via PM.  Was too long to post in the thread.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> A hammer and chisel worked well on the screws in mine.


There is always crowbar leverage...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> There is always crowbar leverage...


And if even that fails, there's always the last resort.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A hammer and chisel worked well on the screws in mine.


😂😂😂😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂😂


Just FYI, you can find these on Amazon.  Just search for "Paladin Defeater" or something along those lines.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just FYI, you can find these on Amazon.  Just search for "Paladin Defeater" or something along those lines.


or at your dentist...


----------



## bcowen (Mar 28, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> or at your dentist...


I think (although I may be wrong) that @Paladin79 just sends his teeth out via FedEx for cleaning.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> A hammer and chisel worked well on the screws in mine.


A swiss precision craftmanship indeed 😝😝😝


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think (although I may be wrong) that @Paladin79 just sends his teeth out via FedEx for cleaning.


You may well be wrong lol. The first time I met @bcowen he was standing in front of a pawn shop picking his teeth......then he went in and got them.😺😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You may well be wrong lol. The first time I met @bcowen he was standing in front of a pawn shop picking his teeth......then he went in and got them.😺😺



  

They were expensive too.  I think they were trade-ins from Chumlee.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> A swiss precision craftmanship indeed 😝😝😝



The hammer was quantum-tunneled and the chisel was cryo-treated.  I *do* have standards, you know.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You may well be wrong lol. The first time I met @bcowen he was standing in front of a pawn shop picking his teeth......then he went in and got them.😺😺


Was the store named Mol’r’us?....😫


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> They were expensive too.  I think they were trade-ins from Chumlee.


What irony:  pay an arm and a leg for teeth...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What irony:  pay an arm and a leg for teeth...


I am reminded of the Yogi Berra quote.

“I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous.”


----------



## Galapac

What a bunch of Stooges..._”I resemble that remark”_, lol.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 28, 2021)

Considering I started this cabinet yesterday afternoon it is coming along. Walnut and maple. I just have mineral spirits on the wood now and several more sandings are required before final finish


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Considering I started this cabinet yesterday afternoon it is coming along. Walnut and maple.


As always, very nice woodwork.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> As always, very nice woodwork.




I am happy with the top plate fit and it should clean up well


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am happy with the top plate fit and it should clean up well


Not to nitpick or anything, but you have the holes on the end.  They're supposed to be on the long side.  I have some wood filler if you need to borrow some.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not to nitpick or anything, but you have the holes on the end.  They're supposed to be on the long side.  I have some wood filler if you need to borrow some.


No I only built one sideways for some guy who wanted the amp to match his shelf or some such. There are people out there who are bonkers yet I try to humor them.🤪

By the way I was just thinking about you. I ordered some double walled cardboard boxes but they are for other people. You know, folks who don’t ask me for sideways amps and such.🙀


----------



## bcowen (Mar 28, 2021)

And as for my project, plate voltage spec is 150v (+/-  5v).  The 117.1 reading on the left meter is the line voltage coming off the variac.  I'm pretty pleased with myself right now, although my arm is getting sore from master-patting my back,


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No I only built one sideways for some guy who wanted the amp to match his shelf or some such. There are people out there who are bonkers yet I try to humor them.🤪
> 
> By the way I was just thinking about you. I ordered some double walled cardboard boxes but they are for other people. You know, folks who don’t ask me for sideways amps and such.🙀



What?!?!? You're using *my* cardboard for someone else?  You fiend.  

Disgruntingly,
bcowen, Esq.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And as for my project, plate voltage spec is 150v (+/-  5v).  The 117.1 reading on the left meter is the line voltage coming off the variac.  I'm pretty pleased with myself right now, although my arm is getting sore from master-patting my back,


Very nice, you accomplished two voltage measurements!!!!!!🙀


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> What?!?!? You're using *my* cardboard for someone else?  You fiend.
> 
> Disgruntingly,
> bcowen, Esq.


Not for “some” one else, for “any” one else. Are you pretending to be a lawyer again?😼


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice, you accomplished two voltage measurements!!!!!!🙀



*I* think that's noteworthy.  Just because you were born with a DVM probe hangin' out of _your_ nose doesn't mean the rest of us were.


----------



## MickBenjamins

To quote Drake: "0 to 100, real quick, real ****ing quick"

Over the weekend I ordered a DarkVoice + Psvane CV181-T-MII MarkII + Tung-Sol 5998 + Svetlana 6AS7GA + RCA 6AS7G

oops


----------



## bcowen

MickBenjamins said:


> To quote Drake: "0 to 100, real quick, real ****ing quick"
> 
> Over the weekend I ordered a DarkVoice + Psvane CV181-T-MII MarkII + Tung-Sol 5998 + Svetlana 6AS7GA + RCA 6AS7G
> 
> oops


Hope you already have some headphones?    

Seriously, you got some great tubes!


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Hope you already have some headphones?
> 
> Seriously, you got some great tubes!


At this pace, by now he probably bought few headphones as well lol and by tomorrow he should start scratch building 😜😜
And if we stopped hearing from him in this thread, her probably outgrew the DV and moved to another amp 😊😊😊


----------



## MickBenjamins (Mar 29, 2021)

Haha!

Right now I'm using the AKG K702 or Neumann NDH 20 and drive them with an AudioQuest DragonFly Black

But yeah, definitely having a look around to see if there's another headphone I'd like to add to cover some more sonic ground

So yeah, let's go with the recommendations


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 29, 2021)

MickBenjamins said:


> Haha!
> 
> Right now I'm using the AKG K702 or Neumann NDH 20 and drive them with an AudioQuest DragonFly Black
> 
> ...


Sennheiser hd 650 would be an early choice for me and since you are in Germany I would look for RFT tubes, perhaps even Telefunken. These can be pricey but perhaps you will find a deal on them.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164163160611?_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACQBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickklMbsMoew5xX%2BNMqD7AgfO3bIU0T8Ri5%2BKKCNuvHTkhLnjcUAdemj5uqEJTf6USckXISrJ6jtcDkiMAwd7TUuFZZhSWzAT19zvtja7iCBUZ%2Bzdu2QrEWKDv7tWofm2ZLimdYIItX574wkekfznp2UimgmyYbZceASdRNo2o1tk1otvTeJQqOijaQgpT%2F01vtLovXCP5hSt3V9dZY2nxLf6buXtyyGV7WYFaVZ%2FMRTINXkNqXj6AFvFPEQbo6l4x%2FC%2BytgpeGIzEVkQ%2Fg6abmT%2BTVcfO4pzlSD7dzo4myLq8veEC9sgWpUpEYX0y9DSpH%2FnAQ4BcIlx%2BodW4oj%2B2%2FG2Np9HuOmVPgdgLbtB5wgYp8PeBczFkyTx7kWW6w%2B%2F%2FxIiyZ6ndYZUb1O7X01rWd3CTUmY2ijcpwtpbgROWw2rumcMvjQf4efqYxia66W%2FdzfjmXHssBIv1AqpgVLlqAaZf4WWYIJOD6Z9RQzI%2BVxp2HoNGAnMsoerNLkpl53NHLfIXI5FUNhqJ1oJzVgVKPBffo6mwD4TX3oZ8YW4N0NrPvGrI5T8bCYkODKR0OjUOYVRPeZc5QshJ22ZDK1AWN6%2FuPXpDw7ikaxtEN7dGTnWgZDuX7mu3pWq6O08qqJUhLSHpJaxgsxL0BQP4j%2F1zOcj69eaX77uahSF11WVLzTGZIbWmyrVu2N550KNBLH1mfT8TYPdupfrHpqAqRVmuA9AQ%3D%3D|cksum:1641631606117f001a01c16d4971b2e69bd43503e06d|ampidL_CLK|clp:3268220&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=164163160611&targetid=1068824075909&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9016564&poi=&campaignid=11615402147&mkgroupid=112424500959&rlsatarget=pla-1068824075909&abcId=9300455&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9YWDBhDyARIsADt6sGbpb_srZ_Hu8coFmatJArtROBYrq1iG-e99KvtckiZHS4ZbP1upbuQaAlAKEALw_wcB

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RFT-6H8C-6SN7-5692-Used-Excellent-Testing-Value-Matched-Pair/164226044285?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item263ca2917d:g:98QAAOSwW7FdWvKF&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkfOCvCjTOBWK8pwriaolq5mXgXnqR%2BHFvbUnAz4dKsiIgEq%2FLtgceSxsm2jx9pIcRXpzQlglNDTxHZXIKmOqbO1bj%2F7CAJIXaFnQdWDY4o8lbV9rkBqgjMftMuTjUmj3Wn6XfzEviMpHe%2F%2F2YRbirejsdmG8BegoRwKf%2F9elUS0ByyIFZHa2w3GB2Z8SwGOCaVE%2F5xtQxkRg903%2FxbDQe%2FI38jmryV9HzkoGKABbhqz5NX6tM6cDDcWnwdyUjPOHJXIUc0%2F91KI3YUHLAzMa0bs3Q10KkYbthpb6k2DmqZAzdRdEsSRt2h%2FbUc%2BbghDPf48xYd3LzxsIcqqm%2FLva6rnF0ZXFpp78hww24zduS2ri3T3iVRKp%2F09qaNczkkNyRHjJS5xZXKCTnwaY7xpDB95D5Tifp19lsRPdRrj%2B7VWUVqbthuru5Ue7upcRGLCehnyVTLDLIShdjMig%2BtTD7ClDze%2BGw6yFSijDvztR6dLCRC1VV4Wup3TqhrAtpx%2B9yKqm6sYFkSGzeMh7OE7KkrvntCBgXCSmQWNxLsUdp2SNlS5BhvWaov%2BjSsE7Zgkgs3l%2BlYGCbirH5ZmMeIo%2BtJyaD0u95eZLuubZNrNgXRun2y4G9SnggapGV1bU9HYU%2FTDFQ7ISib4c8%2Ba8Od6sjq69pO%2F4M2e2VWYei9HqqWalEQaa75IcF3h4uOCxnVFHvS4EebHDzPSYWK4si14z5cbGomeTnC6lLYlDE%2BsLqVNVMBoPyhlBwlF2k%2FchXA%2FupziaaY6AJGJ9If5Cj0v8CZw%3D%3D|cksum:164226044285d47e4ca1de28421caf5222d7177694d2|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

Both scored well in 6sn7 preliminary tests friends and I are conducting.


----------



## HTSkywalker

MickBenjamins said:


> Haha!
> 
> Right now I'm using the AKG K702 or Neumann NDH 20 and drive them with an AudioQuest DragonFly Black
> 
> ...


The AKG 701/2 are a popular budget choice with the DV but won’t give it enough justice.
As @Paladin79  stated the HD650 is the most widely used and does shine with the DV, the Beyerdynamic DT880 or 990 600 Ohms corps also be considered depending on your budget.
Focal cans are also recommended excluding the Clear, Utopia or HD800S are five choices of your budget allows


----------



## MickBenjamins

Thanks Paladin - will look into the Telefunken ones, though I hope I am set for the short- to mid-term, haha 

For headphones, I was actually looking at the Focal Clear MG


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Sennheiser hd 650 would be an early choice for me and since you are in Germany I would look for RFT tubes, perhaps even Telefunken. These can be pricey but perhaps you will find a deal on them.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164163160611?_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACQBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickklMbsMoew5xX%2BNMqD7AgfO3bIU0T8Ri5%2BKKCNuvHTkhLnjcUAdemj5uqEJTf6USckXISrJ6jtcDkiMAwd7TUuFZZhSWzAT19zvtja7iCBUZ%2Bzdu2QrEWKDv7tWofm2ZLimdYIItX574wkekfznp2UimgmyYbZceASdRNo2o1tk1otvTeJQqOijaQgpT%2F01vtLovXCP5hSt3V9dZY2nxLf6buXtyyGV7WYFaVZ%2FMRTINXkNqXj6AFvFPEQbo6l4x%2FC%2BytgpeGIzEVkQ%2Fg6abmT%2BTVcfO4pzlSD7dzo4myLq8veEC9sgWpUpEYX0y9DSpH%2FnAQ4BcIlx%2BodW4oj%2B2%2FG2Np9HuOmVPgdgLbtB5wgYp8PeBczFkyTx7kWW6w%2B%2F%2FxIiyZ6ndYZUb1O7X01rWd3CTUmY2ijcpwtpbgROWw2rumcMvjQf4efqYxia66W%2FdzfjmXHssBIv1AqpgVLlqAaZf4WWYIJOD6Z9RQzI%2BVxp2HoNGAnMsoerNLkpl53NHLfIXI5FUNhqJ1oJzVgVKPBffo6mwD4TX3oZ8YW4N0NrPvGrI5T8bCYkODKR0OjUOYVRPeZc5QshJ22ZDK1AWN6%2FuPXpDw7ikaxtEN7dGTnWgZDuX7mu3pWq6O08qqJUhLSHpJaxgsxL0BQP4j%2F1zOcj69eaX77uahSF11WVLzTGZIbWmyrVu2N550KNBLH1mfT8TYPdupfrHpqAqRVmuA9AQ%3D%3D|cksum:1641631606117f001a01c16d4971b2e69bd43503e06d|ampidL_CLK|clp:3268220&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=164163160611&targetid=1068824075909&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9016564&poi=&campaignid=11615402147&mkgroupid=112424500959&rlsatarget=pla-1068824075909&abcId=9300455&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9YWDBhDyARIsADt6sGbpb_srZ_Hu8coFmatJArtROBYrq1iG-e99KvtckiZHS4ZbP1upbuQaAlAKEALw_wcB
> 
> ...


Sweet mother… looking at those prices I'm sure Bangy has branched out to Vietnam


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 29, 2021)

MickBenjamins said:


> Thanks Paladin - will look into the Telefunken ones, though I hope I am set for the short- to mid-term, haha
> 
> For headphones, I was actually looking at the Focal Clear MG


The Clear does not blend well with the DV but it’s your money and your choice.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-clear-headphones.861727/page-341


----------



## MickBenjamins

HTSkywalker said:


> The Clear does not blend well with the DV but it’s your money and your choice.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-clear-headphones.861727/page-341


I'm now re-reading your previous post, seems I missed the _excluding_ there, my bad! Any Focals that pair well with the DV?

Other than that, a HD600 also seems to be a much-praised choice for it, and a lot more budget friendly


----------



## SHIMACM

I can recommend T1, very good with Darkvoice.


----------



## HTSkywalker

MickBenjamins said:


> I'm now re-reading your previous post, seems I missed the _excluding_ there, my bad! Any Focals that pair well with the DV?
> 
> Other than that, a HD600 also seems to be a much-praised choice for it, and a lot more budget friendly


The Clear shortcomings with the DV is due to its 55 Ohms impedance.
Elear, Elex, Utopia are all 80 Ohms. I have the Elear and it sounds superb with the DV.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> I can recommend T1, very good with Darkvoice.


Surely not the T1 Gen 3 with 32 Ohms 😬


----------



## MickBenjamins

SHIMACM said:


> I can recommend T1, very good with Darkvoice.


Stunning headphones, but I was thrown off by their low impedance too



HTSkywalker said:


> The Clear shortcomings with the DV is due to its 55 Ohms impedance.
> Elear, Elex, Utopia are all 80 Ohms. I have the Elear and it sounds superb with the DV.


Fingers crossed they come ou with a new version of the Elear this year


----------



## Galapac (Mar 29, 2021)

I think its a combination of impedance and db sensitiviy that add up as to why some low impedance headphones work with the DV, but other due to sensitivity do not. I cant remember where I read that but thought I would mention it if others knew.

EDIT: Maybe this will help. https://www.themasterswitch.com/headphone-impedance-sensitivity-explained


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 29, 2021)

MickBenjamins said:


> Stunning headphones, but I was thrown off by their low impedance too
> 
> 
> Fingers crossed they come ou with a new version of the Elear this year


Most probably as it’s already discontinued and they launched the new Clear as well. Maybe the Utopia will get a face lift  too 😍


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> Surely not the T1 Gen 3 with 32 Ohms 😬



First generation. 600ohms.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> First generation. 600ohms.


The higher impedance the sweeter and sweater the DV will get 👍


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> The higher impedance the sweeter and sweater the DV will get 👍



It depends a lot on the set of valves used. With the right combinations it is magical.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Most probably a as it’s already discontinued and they launched the new Clear well. Maybe the Utopia will get a face lift  as well 😍


I hope not...why mess with perfection? The only thing I could see them doing is a different colorway/cup design. right now the Utopias are the only OH left untouched.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I hope not...why mess with perfection? The only thing I could see them doing is a different colorway/cup design. right now the Utopias are the only OH left untouched.


Thanks to Beryllium with 7 times higher rigidity than Titanium or Aluminum


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks to Beryllium with 7 times higher rigidity than Titanium or Aluminum


And that is an old school driver. Utopias are my favorite headphones.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> And that is an old school driver. Utopias are my favorite headphones.


I know that, one of the reasons why I may pull the trigger on 1 🙂🙂🙂 only waiting to see if it may get an upgrade so I have something to tease you with.
In fact as much as I love Planars, the non compatibility with OTL amps is what stopped my Arya purchase.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Maybe the Utopia will get a face lift  too 😍


Inherent contradiction....


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I know that, one of the reasons why I may pull the trigger on 1 🙂🙂🙂 only waiting to see if it may get an upgrade so I have something to tease you with.
> In fact as much as I love Planars, the non compatibility with OTL amps is what stopped my Arya purchase.


There is one planar magnetic headphone with high impedance: Audeze LCD-4 at stated 200 ohms. It is $4000. The dB/V for the LCD-4 is 104.0; for the Focal Utopia, it is 125.0 [ my calculations from dB/mw ].


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 29, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> There is one planar magnetic headphone with high impedance: Audeze LCD-4 at stated 200 ohms. It is $4000. The dB/V for the LCD-4 is 104.0; for the Focal Utopia, it is 125.0 [ my calculations from dB/mw ].


Not sure if the impedance is the only factor for planars not being compatible with OTL amps though.
Hybrid amps are the Closest you can wish for planar magnetics to benefit from the tube warmth.
Cavalli tube hybrid CTH simply shines with planars but with only a touch of warmth never the full tube experience.
My 2 cents 😊


----------



## MickBenjamins

What's the take on the DT1990?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure if the impedance is the only factor for planars not being compatible with OTL amps though.
> Hybrid amps are the Closest you can wish for planar magnetics to benefit from the tube warmth.
> Cavalli tube hybrid CTH simply shines with planars but with only a touch of warmth never the full tube experience.
> My 2 cents 😊


Certainly, impedance is not the only factor. In the case of the LCD-4 vs Utopia, the former is more power-hungry (less efficient) than the latter. This by itself could make the LCD-4 not well suited to an OTL h/p/a - particularly if the current output is low - despite ‘meeting’ high impedance ‘requirements’.


----------



## Galapac

Since this is a tube rolling thread...

I dropped my LGDV today...about a 1 foot drop from a subwoofer and smashed the tubes, SMASHED. EM. TO. BITS!
Well my heart stopped for a brief second and was in such shock that I couldn’t even swear.

Then I realized that I had a Svetlana 6N5S and a Shuguang Treasure CV181 loaded up in there and total cost for those was about $75 and replaceable.

The good news was I think the tubes cushioned the blow and protected the amp from damage.

This was the first time I ever busted a tube so it got me to thinking...

_What is the most expensive tube you ever dropped, broke, busted, blew up, etc? _
Let the horror stories begin...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Certainly, impedance is not the only factor. In the case of the LCD-4 vs Utopia, the former is more power-hungry (less efficient) than the latter. This by itself could make the LCD-4 not well suited to an OTL h/p/a - particularly if the current output is low - despite ‘meeting’ high impedance ‘requirements’.


It depends a lot on the OTL amp. Power is equal to voltage times current and I strive for a happy medium on such an amp in my builds. By nature they can be high voltage and low current.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 29, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Hybrid amps are the Closest you can wish for planar magnetics to benefit from the tube _warmth_


[ Since this is a DV tube thread, this _will_ be quick:   The combination of Audeze LCD-X (or Rosson Audio RAD-0) with the Violectric V280 could be a revelation to you 😄 ]


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Since this is a tube rolling thread...
> 
> I dropped my LGDV today...about a 1 foot drop from a subwoofer and smashed the tubes, SMASHED. EM. TO. BITS!
> Well my heart stopped for a brief second and was in such shock that I couldn’t even swear.
> ...


Bummer, man.  It always hurts to bust a tube, unless of course it's a GE and then it's more like a sport.    

Hard to believe, but in all my years of tube shenanigans I've only actually broken one tube (an NEC 6520).  Wasn't all that expensive, but still.   I've worn some tubes out and had some get noisy and had a few red-plate and even broken the guide pin off an octal or two, but that NEC is the only one I've ever just outright busted.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Bummer, man.  It always hurts to bust a tube, unless of course it's a GE and then it's more like a sport.
> 
> Hard to believe, but in all my years of tube shenanigans I've only actually broken one tube (an NEC 6520).  Wasn't all that expensive, but still.   I've worn some tubes out and had some get noisy and had a few red-plate and even broken the guide pin off an octal or two, but that NEC is the only one I've ever just outright busted.


I have not broken many so Finnegan made up for it. Never one in an amp though. Here he is messing with a laser printer.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have not broken many so Finnegan made up for it. Never one in an amp though. Here he is messing with a laser printer.


Ahhhhh....the old butt print.  I thought only humans did that.  Weird humans


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have not broken many so Finnegan made up for it. Never one in an amp though. Here he is messing with a laser printer.


Of Finnegan’s nine lives, how many are laser print copies?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> [ Since this is a DV tube thread, this _will_ be quick: The combination of Audeze LCD-X (or Rosson Audio RAD-0) with the Violectric V280 could be a revelation to you 😄 ]


Will be even (try 😛) quicker, the V280 is warm all right but you lose 30% of the LCD X sound value without the Reveal+ and I hate using a laptop in my setup although raw music coming from my laptop using JRiver over USB connection to my Mcintosch is one of the cleanest music presentation I heard.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Bummer, man.  It always hurts to bust a tube, unless of course it's a GE and then it's more like a sport.
> 
> Hard to believe, but in all my years of tube shenanigans I've only actually broken one tube (an NEC 6520).  Wasn't all that expensive, but still.   I've worn some tubes out and had some get noisy and had a few red-plate and even broken the guide pin off an octal or two, but that NEC is the only one I've ever just outright busted.


A Tube shooting event is not a bad idea if we can have GE sponsor it 😁😁, of course the DV stock tubes could be used for practicing before the event. 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Of Finnegan’s nine lives, how many are laser print copies?...


8 are left I mind you 🤐🤐🤐


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> A Tube shooting event is not a bad idea if we can have GE sponsor it 😁😁, of course the DV stock tubes could be used for practicing before the event. 🤣🤣🤣


You may have a good point there.  It's possible the stock DV tubes are worse than GE's, although that's an extremely difficult concept and will take some time for thorough ponderance.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> You may have a good point there.  It's possible the stock DV tubes are worse than GE's, although that's an extremely difficult concept and will take some time for thorough ponderance.


Crappy sound aside, at least the GE does not come with fingerprints even form the inside of the glass along with a rice smell 😆😆😆


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Crappy sound aside, at least the GE does not come with fingerprints even form the inside of the glass along with a rice smell 😆😆😆


LOL!  Yeah, you need to keep that Chinese tube as a museum piece.  I've never seen a tube like that before.  I can't even figure out how it came out like that, unless it was a pissed-off employee that did it intentionally.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> A Tube shooting event is not a bad idea if we can have GE sponsor it 😁😁, of course the DV stock tubes could be used for practicing before the event. 🤣🤣🤣


For summer weather, GE clay shooting; for winter weather, GE tube biathlon (x-country skiing + rifle GE tube euthanasia). If the DVs are _too_ recalcitrant in their audio behaviour, the DV amps themselves are biathlon “posts”.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, you need to keep that Chinese tube as a museum piece.  I've never seen a tube like that before.  I can't even figure out how it came out like that, unless it was a pissed-off employee that did it intentionally.


Probably some wage related complaints 😦😦


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, you need to keep that Chinese tube as a museum piece.  I've never seen a tube like that before.  I can't even figure out how it came out like that, unless it was a pissed-off employee that did it intentionally.


Made during last shift on Fri(ce)day ?....👎


----------



## therremans

Nobsound NS-05P - LINK​



If anyone wants in/out volume control, I can recommend this box to you for mere cost of $45. 

My Schiit Sys paired well next to the Schiit DACs I've owned. But if you've ever owned one, you'll know that the volume knob is a bit small and cheap feeling, a lack luster experience. Mine also became quite scratchy (just needs a cleaning I think). My gf says that a bigger knob is always better and I will agree with her on this one. The Nobsound (what a name) is a well made unit, containing an ALPS 09 potentiometer, Neutrik XLR locking connectors and RCAs. I have not had the time to open it up but so far it sounds fantastic. My desktop monitors (JBLs) have balanced connections and I have always been forced to run them XLR > RCA. I am still using RCAs until I can make my XLR cables in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, I'm not sure sure I will notice much of a difference with XLR cables but it is necessary as I want to use the RCA output on the controller for something else in the future. I have the cable, I just need to order some XLR connectors with my DV mod parts.

I have a lot of catching up to do in the thread, still going through the move but getting things setup now.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Nobsound NS-05P - LINK​
> If anyone wants in/out volume control, I can recommend this box to you for mere cost of $45.


Is the $45 for your recommendation or for the box?😜


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Is the $45 for your recommendation or for the box?😜


haha the box. but you may send me $45 if you want.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Nobsound NS-05P - LINK​
> If anyone wants in/out volume control, I can recommend this box to you for mere cost of $45.
> 
> My Schiit Sys paired well next to the Schiit DACs I've owned. But if you've ever owned one, you'll know that the volume knob is a bit small and cheap feeling, a lack luster experience. Mine also became quite scratchy (just needs a cleaning I think). My gf says that a bigger knob is always better and I will agree with her on this one. The Nobsound (what a name) is a well made unit, containing an ALPS 09 potentiometer, Neutrik XLR locking connectors and RCAs. I have not had the time to open it up but so far it sounds fantastic. My desktop monitors (JBLs) have balanced connections and I have always been forced to run them XLR > RCA. I am still using RCAs until I can make my XLR cables in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, I'm not sure sure I will notice much of a difference with XLR cables but it is necessary as I want to use the RCA output on the controller for something else in the future. I have the cable, I just need to order some XLR connectors with my DV mod parts.
> ...



Logic would dictate that the Nobsound _should_ have a better knob.  I think.


----------



## bcowen

"Dog food is totally nasty."


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 30, 2021)

bcowen said:


> "Dog food is totally nasty."


Are you stringing telephone lines inside your house? You know they can go in the wall right? 

This is something I made in my spare time, do not bother trying to guess what it is, there are 15 holes plus six pairs of holes. All there for a reason, as well as five definitive rows.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Logic would dictate that the Nobsound _should_ have a better knob.  I think.


How much more would a silent knob cost?


----------



## bcowen (Mar 30, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Are you stringing telephone lines inside your house? You know they can go in the wall right?



Huh?  That's the AC cord for the outlet strip powering all of the big rig.  Sheeez.  I just haven't glued any sorbothane strips to it yet. 



Paladin79 said:


> This is something I make in my spare time, do not bother trying to guess what it is, there are 15 holes plus six pairs of holes. All there for a reason, as well as five definitive rows.


I would guess it's something religious as holy as it is?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> How much more would a silent knob cost?


If you send me $500 in hush money I will tell you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Huh?  That's the AC cord for the outlet strip powering all of the big rig.  Sheeez.  I just haven't glued any sorbothane strips to it yet.
> 
> 
> I would guess it's something religious as holy as it is?


It involves art and specific tools used therein. Most people just drill some holes in a 2x4 or 2x6 and post photos of their handy work. I go about things a different way and this is all scrap wood or short pieces I had not found a use for.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It involves art and specific tools used therein. Most people just drill some holes in a 2x4 or 2x6 and post photos of their handy work. I go about things a different way and this is all scrap wood or short pieces I had not found a use for.


Geeez man.  Not even a LOL? Or a lol at bare minimum?  You need a vacation.  I can wait a bit on that list I PM'ed you, no problem.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 30, 2021)

Of all the MODS..wow.. me likey!   IT WORKS!! SHE's ALIVE..!!!  (and yes I'm cleaning up the burnt Flux.. )  

Mills Resistor 0R12 (0.12) Ohm 12W MRA-12 Series (thanks Bcowen) ​


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If you send me $500 in hush money I will tell you.


I guess that I will have to PM you the dough...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Geeez man.  Not even a LOL? Or a lol at bare minimum?  You need a vacation.  I can wait a bit on that list I PM'ed you, no problem.


Sorry I am in work mode, my mind is on other things. Here lol. 😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I am in work mode, my mind is on other things. Here lol. 😺



Whew.  Thanks.  I feel better now.  I'll pick on @JKDJedi for a while and give you a break.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Whew.  Thanks.  I feel better now.  I'll pick on @JKDJedi for a while and give you a break.


Despite his j-k-d ?...🥵 👊 🤕🏥


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Are you stringing telephone lines inside your house? You know they can go in the wall right?
> 
> This is something I made in my spare time, do not bother trying to guess what it is, there are 15 holes plus six pairs of holes. All there for a reason, as well as five definitive rows.


That was an easy guess, you are re-inventing a legacy Telephony switchboard 😜😜😜 with a tubey sound lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It involves art and specific tools used therein. Most people just drill some holes in a 2x4 or 2x6 and post photos of their handy work. I go about things a different way and this is all scrap wood or short pieces I had not found a use for.


AM curious about the end product


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 31, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I am in work mode, my mind is on other things. Here lol. 😺


Seems you're done with the pottery shed project 🙂🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems you're done with the pottery shed project 🙂🙂


Not quite yet, my main workman took a week off then it will be ceiling, trim, and flooring. In the meantime I am working on amps and other projects in the evenings.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 31, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> That was an easy guess, you are re-inventing a legacy Telephony switchboard 😜😜😜 with a tubey sound lol


Because of the switchboards, 1/4 inch mono plugs are called phone plugs. Oh and I will show the device I made later, it is just a board with purpose.😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Because of the switchboards, 1/4 inch mono plugs are called phone plugs. Oh and I will show the device I made later, it is just a board with purpose.😎


If the purpose is an audio one, A small forest of cables will be hiding behind the shiny wooden facet am sure  
am definitely intrigued


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 31, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> If the purpose is an audio one, A small forest of cables will be hiding behind the shiny wooden facet am sure
> am definitely intrigued


Here it is without finish applied. This makes perfect sense now right?.


I am also building my wife a powered speaker system that will work with bluetooth or through and aux port, 40 or 50 watts should be sufficient for the shed. I have to search for just the right speakers though, the rest is pretty simple.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Here it is without finish applied. This makes perfect sense now right?.


Would I sound like an idiot If I tell you that I zoomed in and out but was not able to define the nature of this monument, only probably was able to identify the Dremel case it's resting on 😢


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 31, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Would I sound like an idiot If I tell you that I zoomed in and out but was not able to define the nature of this monument, only probably was able to identify the Dremel case it's resting on 😢


They are tools used by a potter three at a time. They hold a pottery piece in place, usually bowl or coffee mug, while you trim the bottom of the piece. The company that makes them show the long pieces stuck in a two by four and asked for photos of other ideas. Most were pretty rustic lol. So I made my wife something that would wow her friends from some scrap I had laying around. It is only 12 inches by 7.5 inches,

You are certainly not an idiot, these are very specialized tools Now the small speaker box I will build, that will obviously be electronic. I may use tiger maple if I can get @bcowen to sign off on its usage, since he invented it.  

When done my wife can use an Echo Dot and just tell the system what to play, or stream from Tidal on her phone etc. But it has to sound good, and right now with mostly bare walls it may be a challenge.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> They are tools used by a potter three at a time. They hold a pottery piece in place, usually bowl or coffee mug, while you trim the bottom of the piece. The company that makes them show the long pieces stuck in a two by four and asked for photos of other ideas. Most were pretty rustic lol. So I made my wife something that would wow her friends from some scrap I had laying around. It is only 12 inches by 7.5 inches,


Am sure it will be a professional end product especially after applying the last finish, beware though ! you maybe be summoned by your wife's friends for more artistic products. 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Here it is without finish applied. This makes perfect sense now right?.
> 
> I am also building my wife a powered speaker system that will work with bluetooth or through and aux port, 40 or 50 watts should be sufficient for the shed. I have to search for just the right speakers though, the rest is pretty simple.


If you like to cut through the chase, a $380 would do it for you, I have it in my workshop and I love it. All kinds of connections are built in including Phono IN.
But am sure you want to explore your craftmanship skills 😎
Mine:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FKCP7P...id=17R8K5IOB5545&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it_im&th=1
The newer product:
https://www.klipsch.com/products/the-fives-powered-speakers


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure it will be a professional end product especially after applying the last finish, beware though ! you maybe be summoned by your wife's friends for more artistic products. 😊


They can take a number and wait lol. It is impossible to do much more than break even on such things if you can even do that. Total time might be six hours and I used tigerwood, cherry, and purpleheart hardwoods.  The same is true with pottery, It costs a minimum of $32 to fire a kiln and most pieces are fired twice, add about 4 hours of work time per piece and expensive glaze, and it becomes a labor of love. My amps are about the same way, but several friends have something to remember me by.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> If you like to cut through the chase, a $380 would do it for you, I have it in my workshop and I love it. All kinds of connections are built in including Phono IN.
> But am sure you want to explore your craftmanship skills 😎
> Mine:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FKCP7P...id=17R8K5IOB5545&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it_im&th=1
> ...


LOL  I do not pay for such things, I can build it for under $100 and it will be PRETTY.    I have a Martin Logan sound bar with a built in 100 watt amp and subwoofer connection but they are black lacquer and the pottery dust would be all over them. $1800 new but under $50 for me when you know the right people.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> They can take a number and wait lol. It is impossible to do much more than break even on such things if you can even do that. Total time might be six hours and I used tigerwood, cherry, and purpleheart hardwoods.  The same is true with pottery, It costs a minimum of $32 to fire a kiln and most pieces are fired twice, add about 4 hours of work time per piece and expensive glaze, and it becomes a labor of love. My amps are about the same way, but several friends have something to remember me by.


Exactly why handmade products are expensive  but it will payback by the self satisfaction and friend's appreciation of the end product.
And besides hobbies essential purpose is to make use of any extra money laying around till the point of sometimes enjoying buying new things 
just for the excitement of it. 
Your tube gift burned its marking in my heart 🙂 although you did not manufacture any lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL  I do not pay for such things, I can build it for under $100 and it will be PRETTY.    I have a Martin Logan sound bar with a built in 100 watt amp and subwoofer connection but they are black lacquer and the pottery dust would be all over them. $1800 new but under $50 for me when you know the right people.


$50 ????? Got to  meet those friends of yours, thought @bcowen is the only friend left lol 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Exactly why handmade products are expensive  but it will payback by the self satisfaction and friend's appreciation of the end product.
> And besides hobbies essential purpose is to make use of any extra money laying around till the point of sometimes enjoying buying new things
> just for the excitement of it.
> Your tube gift burned its marking in my heart 🙂 although you did not manufacture any lol


I hate to try to describe differences in tube sound and generally if you ask a few people you might get differing results. Everything is relative to me, I have access to most any 6sn7 type made with several hundred I own that I rarely use. So it made sense to let you hear some.

 I worked to get the perfect sound for me and others seem to like it, but I am very restrictive on what I plug into an Incubus for my own tastes. The DV in its original form is not for me so I will modify mine, IMHO Utopias only magnify the issues.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> $50 ????? Got to  meet those friends of yours, thought @bcowen is the only friend left lol 😂😂😂


Bill has always been very kind sharing tubes with me so I never give it much thought if he needs something, within reason.    One day I might even make him something out of double wall cardboard.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I hate to try to describe differences in tube sound and generally if you ask a few people you might get differing results. Everything is relative to me, I have access to most any 6sn7 type made with several hundred I own that I rarely use. So it made sense to let you hear some.
> 
> I worked to get the perfect sound for me and others seem to like it, but I am very restrictive on what I plug into an Incubus for my own tastes. The DV in its original form is not for me so I will modify mine, IMHO Utopias only magnify the issues.


If modification to the DV would make a difference, I would also be happy to do it as well. Cost wise, if I will ends up paying up to the cost of a WOO WA6 ($900) and the WOO will be superior out of the box, I'd rather go this path.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> That was an easy guess, you are re-inventing a legacy Telephony switchboard 😜😜😜 with a tubey sound lol


For updates, the # is 1-800-GETUBES...


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> If modification to the DV would make a difference, I would also be happy to do it as well. Cost wise, if I will ends up paying up to the cost of a WOO WA6 ($900) and the WOO will be superior out of the box, I'd rather go this path.


Just think of the love/hate relationship with a DV that is avoided by wooing a Woo...


----------



## HTSkywalker

BTW is there any To Do List of DV upgrades to be considered ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Just think of the love/hate relationship with a DV that is avoided by wooing a Woo...


Mixed messaging lol 😨😨


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW is there any To Do List of DV upgrades to be considered ?


Read back through this thread, there are plenty out there. I am staying out of offering advice since my mods will not be for most DV owners.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW is there any To Do List of DV upgrades to be considered ?


♾ each by anyone


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 31, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Read back through this thread, there are plenty out there. I am staying out of offering advice since my mods will not be for most DV owners.


Does it make sense sound and cost wise, or better accept it as is and get another amp ? the WOO or any other
and probably by saying "my mods will not be for most DV owners" you mean keeping only the Darkvoice signature plate untouched 😁😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Does it make sense sound and cost wise, or better accept it as is and get another amp ? the WOO or any other
> and probably by saying "my mods will not be for most DV owners" you mean keeping only the Darkvoice signature plate untouched 😁😍


I think I will use that plate.    Working with the DV is pretty far down my list right now but I got @bcowen's extension built, I believe his priorities come first.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> If you like to cut through the chase, a $380 would do it for you, I have it in my workshop and I love it. All kinds of connections are built in including Phono IN.
> But am sure you want to explore your craftmanship skills 😎
> Mine:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FKCP7P...id=17R8K5IOB5545&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it_im&th=1
> ...


Interesting I have the inverse R-15PM of those speakers. Used with floor stands for my turntable.
Great speakers and can use the bluetooth with my DAP if the mood strikes me.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A7J534G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Interesting I have the inverse R-15PM of those speakers. Used with floor stands for my turntable.
> Great speakers and can use the bluetooth with my DAP if the mood strikes me.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A7J534G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


What I will build will be smaller than one of those speakers most likely. I have a three other types but they get use in other parts of my house or in my yard.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> They are tools used by a potter three at a time. They hold a pottery piece in place, usually bowl or coffee mug, while you trim the bottom of the piece. The company that makes them show the long pieces stuck in a two by four and asked for photos of other ideas. Most were pretty rustic lol. So I made my wife something that would wow her friends from some scrap I had laying around. It is only 12 inches by 7.5 inches,
> 
> You are certainly not an idiot, these are very specialized tools Now the small speaker box I will build, that will obviously be electronic. I may use tiger maple if I can get @bcowen to sign off on its usage, since he invented it.
> 
> When done my wife can use an Echo Dot and just tell the system what to play, or stream from Tidal on her phone etc. But it has to sound good, and right now with mostly bare walls it may be a challenge.


Wonderfully crafted !


----------



## Deceneu808 (Apr 6, 2021)

Got the DV up and running better than ever. Original pot but cleaned and reconditioned. We'll see how it does in the long run. I've got another tube amp (sorry) on the way so this will be just for nostalgia. B65 mwt & Chatham 6080WA, Dire Straits, ... I need a day off work tomorrow, that good...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Interesting I have the inverse R-15PM of those speakers. Used with floor stands for my turntable.
> Great speakers and can use the bluetooth with my DAP if the mood strikes me.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A7J534G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Yeah nice product line from Klipsch 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 31, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Got the DV up and running better than ever. Original pot but cleaned and reconditioned. We'll see how it does in the long run. I've got another tube amp (sorry) on the way so this will be just for nostalgia. B65 mwt & Chatham 6080WA, Dire Strains, ... I need a day off work tomorrow, that good...


So you gave up on the Blue ALPS and reinstalled back the stock pot ??


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah nice product line from Klipsch 👍


Klipsch headquarters are near me. I may have a bunch of their speakers. My little homemade speaker system will have 3 way speakers and a subwoofer. Oh and here is the final result for the other project.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Klipsch headquarters are near me. I may have a bunch of their speakers. My little homemade speaker system will have 3 way speakers and a subwoofer. Oh and here is the final result for the other project.



And here all along I thought it was home theater seating for really little people....just assumed those were the headrests and you hadn't installed the seats yet.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Working with the DV is pretty far down my list right now but I got @bcowen's extension built, I believe his priorities come first.


You are correct (as usual) sir.   LOL!!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Klipsch headquarters are near me. I may have a bunch of their speakers. My little homemade speaker system will have 3 way speakers and a subwoofer. Oh and here is the final result for the other project.


Well that was a quickly executed project and final product looks  good 👍. It should draw a big smile on your wife’s face.
As for the speakers, a ribbon tweeter or maybe even an LTS tweeter from the neighbors 😀 would give a very enjoyable touch.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> And here all along I thought it was home theater seating for really little people....just assumed those were the headrests and you hadn't installed the seats yet.


Thanks @bcowen 🙏 I feel better now as for a moment I thought I was the only one without a real clue 😂😂


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks @bcowen 🙏 I feel better now as for a moment I thought I was the only one without a real clue 😂😂


If you ever need assistance in the future feel free to shoot me a PM.  Being clueless is the only thing I have a real clue about.    Oh, and the best sounding wood too, but that doesn't come up very often,


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And here all along I thought it was home theater seating for really little people....just assumed those were the headrests and you hadn't installed the seats yet.


I was thinking the same thing lol. It will be interesting to see what 64,000 people think after it is compared to a 2x4 with holes drilled in it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> If you ever need assistance in the future feel free to shoot me a PM.  Being clueless is the only thing I have a real clue about.    Oh, and the best sounding wood too, but that doesn't come up very often,


May I use some of your maple on my wife’s speaker box Sir Cowen esq?  So it sounds good?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Mar I use some of your maple on my wife’s speaker box Sir Cowen esq?  So it sounds good?


For your wife?  But of course!  I would expect you to use only the best to keep her happy.  I know all about sleeping on couches and stuff (I mean not personally of course, but I read about it on the internet).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> For your wife?  But of course!  I would expect you to use only the best to keep her happy.  I know all about sleeping on couches and stuff (I mean not personally of course, but I read about it on the internet).


Spalted maple it is, but I shall test many types of wood just to achieve the proper feng shui in her tiny home away from home.😇


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> So you gave up on the Blue ALPS and reinstalled back the stock pot ??


Yeah I gave up on the Alps pot for now due to not completely understanding how to connect it. The stock pot seems to be working flawlessly for now but time will tell.


----------



## qingcai

it's time to switch to cool amp.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Apr 1, 2021)

I should also mention that I did not do this myself and found a local guy who seems to really know his stuff but he said he hooked up the Alps pot and it wouldn't sweep the volume so that's why we proceed to clean the stock pot. I think not even him completely understood how to install the Alps pot but anyways ... in the name of science, here is the inside of the stock pot


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I should also mention that I did not do this myself and found a local guy who seems to really know his stuff but he said he hooked up the Alps pot and it wouldn't sweep the volume so that's why we proceed to clean the stock pot. I think not even him completely understood how to install the Alps pot but anyways ... in the name of science, here is the inside of the stock pot


This is exactly what we call an exploded view 😃😃


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Well that was a quickly executed project and final product looks  good 👍. It should draw a big smile on your wife’s face.
> As for the speakers, a ribbon tweeter or maybe even an LTS tweeter from the neighbors 😀 would give a very enjoyable touch.


Sorry I already have speakers on the way and it will be a 2.1 setup. 50 W RMS or so, it can be used inside the shed or plugged into an outlet on the shed porch for an open mini house warming. Your advice is always welcome of course but I have worked with enough speakers to be dangerous.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I already have speakers on the way and it will be a 2.1 setup. 50 W RMS or so, it can be used inside the shed or plugged into an outlet on the shed porch for an open mini house warming.


Or maybe even in-wall setup inside the shed as well as outside in the porch wall or ceiling with a switch for either location 😊 with Nothing to move around and wood to spear


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Or maybe even in-wall setup inside the shed as well as outside in the porch wall or ceiling with a switch for either location 😊 with Nothing to move around and wood to spear


That is not what I am doing but thanks for the thought. I would  have wired it before the drywall went up if that was the case, and once again I will say, I want something pretty. Something more like these colors but the maple will be much prettier. 





More like this:


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> I should also mention that I did not do this myself and found a local guy who seems to really know his stuff but he said he hooked up the Alps pot and it wouldn't sweep the volume so that's why we proceed to clean the stock pot. I think not even him completely understood how to install the Alps pot but anyways ... in the name of science, here is the inside of the stock pot


Missing:   Sledgehammer?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> That is not what I am doing but thanks for the thought. I would  have wired it before the drywall went up if that was the case, and once again I will say, I want something pretty. Something more like these colors but the maple will be much prettier.


This has the profile of an erstwhile Snell Acoustics E speaker....it’s fine looking....handle for gremlin?...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> This has the profile of an erstwhile Snell Acoustics E speaker....it’s fine looking....handle for gremlin?...


just an example of wood colors lol, mine will have speakers on each end and a sub woofer in the back. most likely it will only be 18"x 7"x7" and will lay flat.  I am using 3 or 4 inch speakers.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> That is not what I am doing but thanks for the thought. I would  have wired it before the drywall went up if that was the case, and once again I will say, I want something pretty. Something more like these colors but the maple will be much prettier.
> 
> 
> 
> More like this:


That is more artistic than functional 😍. I was sure you won't let go on the wood work pleasure lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That is more artistic than functional 😍. I was sure you won't let go on the wood work pleasure lol


It will be functional as well lol, there will be plenty of shelves in the shop and with a portable AC supply I can use this at my fire pit.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 1, 2021)

Just came across this tube:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/964722...boy&ref=sr_gallery-1-7&organic_search_click=1
is it a good deal ?
In fact a big choice of Bad Boys
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=sylvania 6sn7 bad boy


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Just came across this tube:
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/964722...boy&ref=sr_gallery-1-7&organic_search_click=1
> is it a good deal ?


I am a little surprised he used the term Bad Boy with that tube, I would most likely shop around and check other prices on Ebay just to see how it compares on price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-CLEAN...607792?hash=item48f5179170:g:M7cAAOSwKwZf3SLZ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-Pai...599975?hash=item1d04dc5467:g:euoAAOSwuB1gTprX

This one even has "make offer" listed which pretty much guarantees he will take a lower price IMHO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am a little surprised he used the term Bad Boy with that tube, I would most likely shop around and check other prices on Ebay just to see how it compares on price.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-CLEAN...607792?hash=item48f5179170:g:M7cAAOSwKwZf3SLZ
> 
> ...


Both are bad Boy ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Both are bad Boy ?


You might want to read about what is considered a bad boy Sylvania, these do not share its traits.


----------



## Galapac

For what its worth...from the internet so you know...grain of salt and all but I tend to agree with this.

_The whole concept of the "Bad Boy" is ridiculous. It was created by someone who happened to have a certain type of Sylvania 6SN7GT in his stock and wanted to enhance the resale value of them.  If you buy the hype, ONLY the "3 hole" plates qualify it as a "Bad Boy".  Great.  So now out know how to overpay for a Sylvania 6SN7 GT.

Just get the 1950's era VT-231 Sylvanias and you will pay less and get more._

...and

_The Sylvania Tall Boy types have two triangular shaped plates facing each other mounted high in the tube, with either a top or bottom getter. Later GT versions were in a medium glass envelope with a green label and blackplates with bottom getter, sometimes called the "Bad Boy" 6SN7, and are sought after for their excellent sonics. The Bad Boy tubes are virtually identical to the military VT-231 from the early 1950s and are currently a less expensive alternative, but this could change as the Bad Boy fad catches on! A side note about Bad Boys, there were versions with 2 rivet holes in each plate, and versions with 3 holes. Both types sound identical. Don't fall for the bogus story that only the 3 rivet hole types are the true "Bad Boys"! You will miss out on some great sound from the 2 hole type, since the 3 hole versions are more difficult to find, more expensive elsewhere, and don't sound any different! I suspect the "3-hole only" story got started by my competition to justify charging a higher price for these tubes!_


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> For what its worth...from the internet so you know...grain of salt and all but I tend to agree with this.
> 
> _The whole concept of the "Bad Boy" is ridiculous. It was created by someone who happened to have a certain type of Sylvania 6SN7GT in his stock and wanted to enhance the resale value of them.  If you buy the hype, ONLY the "3 hole" plates qualify it as a "Bad Boy".  Great.  So now out know how to overpay for a Sylvania 6SN7 GT.
> 
> ...


Very enlightening indeed 👍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Both are bad Boy ?


_None_ of the ones pictured in either link you listed are Bad Boys.  Bad Boys have bottom getters, end every one of those has top getters.  They might be good sounding tubes, they just do not have the construction details of what is referred to as a true Bad Boy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Very enlightening indeed 👍


There are plenty of opinions out there and some say it has to be bottom foil getter holder and such. It is a made up name that some use rather loosely but generally I have seen that seller be more cautious with that appellation. Now the Naughty Girls are another matter, I made up the name so I certainly know what they are.😎 You own a pair.

Bill beat me to the post lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are plenty of opinions out there and some say it has to be bottom foil getter holder and such. It is a made up name that some use rather loosely but generally I have seen that seller be more cautious with that appellation. Now the Naughty Girls are another matter, I made up the name so I certainly know what they are.😎 You own a pair.


Totally agree, and what @Galapac posted is right on the money too.  Personally, while I think a true Bad Boy is a nice sounding tube, it's not like some holy grail where _everything_ else pales in comparison.  It's only a nice sounding tube....and worth (comparatively and subjectively and IMO etc etc) about $50 - $60 in NOS condition.  I do get irked though with the sellers constantly touting the Bad Bay moniker just to sell the tube for more. Regardless of one's opinion on the sound of the tube, the Bad Boy has particular construction characteristics, and absent those it's simply* not *a Bad Boy and shouldn't be described as such.  I see the "Bad Boy Plates" used a lot...well, hell, the majority of Sylvania 6SN7's have T-plates (or triangular, whatever) so from that perspective 90% of Sylvania made tubes are Bad Boys.  Getting to the point of being ridiculous.  I've even seen Russian tubes being listed as Bad Boys of late.  Sheeez.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Totally agree, and what @Galapac posted is right on the money too.  Personally, while I think a true Bad Boy is a nice sounding tube, it's not like some holy grail where _everything_ else pales in comparison.  It's only a nice sounding tube....and worth (comparatively and subjectively and IMO etc etc) about $50 - $60 in NOS condition.  I do get irked though with the sellers constantly touting the Bad Bay moniker just to sell the tube for more. Regardless of one's opinion on the sound of the tube, the Bad Boy has particular construction characteristics, and absent those it's simply* not *a Bad Boy and shouldn't be described as such.  I see the "Bad Boy Plates" used a lot...well, hell, the majority of Sylvania 6SN7's have T-plates (or triangular, whatever) so from that perspective 90% of Sylvania made tubes are Bad Boys.  Getting to the point of being ridiculous.  I've even seen Russian tubes being listed as Bad Boys of late.  Sheeez.


I saw this coming lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It will be functional as well lol, there will be plenty of shelves in the shop and with a portable AC supply I can use this at my fire pit.


While you're creating new stuff, I'm fixing old stuff.  Not sure whose job is harder.  LOL!!

Before:













After:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I saw this coming lol.


Guess I forgot to append "end of rant."


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Totally agree, and what @Galapac posted is right on the money too.  Personally, while I think a true Bad Boy is a nice sounding tube, it's not like some holy grail where _everything_ else pales in comparison.  It's only a nice sounding tube....and worth (comparatively and subjectively and IMO etc etc) about $50 - $60 in NOS condition.  I do get irked though with the sellers constantly touting the Bad Bay moniker just to sell the tube for more. Regardless of one's opinion on the sound of the tube, the Bad Boy has particular construction characteristics, and absent those it's simply* not *a Bad Boy and shouldn't be described as such.  I see the "Bad Boy Plates" used a lot...well, hell, the majority of Sylvania 6SN7's have T-plates (or triangular, whatever) so from that perspective 90% of Sylvania made tubes are Bad Boys.  Getting to the point of being ridiculous.  I've even seen Russian tubes being listed as Bad Boys of late.  Sheeez.


I hear ya Bill...I posted that for HTSkywalker because I got caught up in that mess a couple of years ago and learned my lesson. I didn't want others to suffer. I'm just glad I didn't pay what the prices are now for some Sylvanias...$200-250...are you kidding me!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Guess I forgot to append "end of rant."


Naughty girls cause far less trouble.😜

Oh and in preliminary tests in my group Bad Boys did ok but nothing spectacular


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> While you're creating new stuff, I'm fixing old stuff.  Not sure whose job is harder.  LOL!!
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


That's real nice Bill. Great work. Just wonder if the Verdugo Hills High School was worth keeping...lol.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> That's real nice Bill. Great work. Just wonder if the Verdugo Hills High School was worth keeping...lol.


Thanks!  And ROFL on the high school ID.  Fortunately it was only written on there in pencil and cleaned off pretty easily.  I've had some I've worked on where they used some kind of etching or engraving tool to add a stock number or asset number or similar, and they're never done neatly...usually look like scribble.  Or where they've written on it in some permanent ink that has stained the aluminum over time (although I found a magic elixir that works on that).  The exterior cases on these things are the real challenge though....I spend more time on them than I do replacing parts and calibrating usually.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There are plenty of opinions out there and some say it has to be bottom foil getter holder and such. It is a made up name that some use rather loosely but generally I have seen that seller be more cautious with that appellation. Now the Naughty Girls are another matter, I made up the name so I certainly know what they are.😎 You own a pair.
> 
> Bill beat me to the post lol.


I would be plugging the 6J5 Sylvania Naughty Girls (Christianized by you) for some extended listening


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> For what its worth...from the internet so you know...grain of salt and all but I tend to agree with this.
> 
> _The whole concept of the "Bad Boy" is ridiculous. It was created by someone who happened to have a certain type of Sylvania 6SN7GT in his stock and wanted to enhance the resale value of them.  If you buy the hype, ONLY the "3 hole" plates qualify it as a "Bad Boy".  Great.  So now out know how to overpay for a Sylvania 6SN7 GT.
> 
> ...


_Is that a new Profile picture 😍😍😍_


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> While you're creating new stuff, I'm fixing old stuff.  Not sure whose job is harder.  LOL!!
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


You and I need to talk in private, if that one is not sold maybe we can work out a deal. I have too many irons in the fire to get back to my 707 for quite some time.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Totally agree, and what @Galapac posted is right on the money too.  Personally, while I think a true Bad Boy is a nice sounding tube, it's not like some holy grail where _everything_ else pales in comparison.  It's only a nice sounding tube....and worth (comparatively and subjectively and IMO etc etc) about $50 - $60 in NOS condition.  I do get irked though with the sellers constantly touting the Bad Bay moniker just to sell the tube for more. Regardless of one's opinion on the sound of the tube, the Bad Boy has particular construction characteristics, and absent those it's simply* not *a Bad Boy and shouldn't be described as such.  I see the "Bad Boy Plates" used a lot...well, hell, the majority of Sylvania 6SN7's have T-plates (or triangular, whatever) so from that perspective 90% of Sylvania made tubes are Bad Boys.  Getting to the point of being ridiculous.  I've even seen Russian tubes being listed as Bad Boys of late.  Sheeez.


True! seems the Bad Boy label is being used for marketing purposes when it comes to Sylvania 6SN7


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I would be plugging the 6J5 Sylvania Naughty Girls (Christianized by you) for some extended listening



I think the (lame) Naughty Girl refers to a 7A4, but I'm confident @Paladin79 will quickly correct me if I'm wrong.  LOL!  A Sylvania 6J5 would be more like a Prison Slut.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> While you're creating new stuff, I'm fixing old stuff.  Not sure whose job is harder.  LOL!!
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


I believe I saw this box in "Back to the Future"


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You and I need to talk in private, if that one is not sold maybe we can work out a deal. I have too many irons in the fire to get back to my 707 for quite some time.


Well, this one is spoken for I think.  If not, I'll let you know.  I have a really nice Hickok 752 in queue next...it's pretty much done cosmetically but has an electrical problem that I have to trace down and fix.  Transformer and meter are good, it's in the shorts control switch (I think).


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I hear ya Bill...I posted that for HTSkywalker because I got caught up in that mess a couple of years ago and learned my lesson. I didn't want others to suffer. I'm just glad I didn't pay what the prices are now for some Sylvanias...$200-250...are you kidding me!


Indeed you saved me that path 👌👌


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Naughty girls cause far less trouble.😜
> 
> Oh and in preliminary tests in my group Bad Boys did ok but nothing spectacular


I trust the Naughty Girls are Bad ass tubes 🙂🙂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, this one is spoken for I think.  If not, I'll let you know.  I have a really nice Hickok 752 in queue next...it's pretty much done cosmetically but has an electrical problem that I have to trace down and fix.  Transformer and meter are good, it's in the shorts control switch (I think).


Ok I can wait if need be. I would have a trade in and possibly put your Incubus in a nice tiger maple cabinet instead of cardboard. Then most of your stuff would match lol. I also made yours in my early woodworking trials, I stopped using a nail gun lol although staples may have held yours together.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> _Is that a new Profile picture 😍😍😍_


Yep...I have an affinity for skulls. That was one of my headphone stands...lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I think the (lame) Naughty Girl refers to a 7A4, but I'm confident @Paladin79 will quickly correct me if I'm wrong.  LOL!  A Sylvania 6J5 would be more like a Prison Slut.


"like a prison slut" well need to check the holes if they are loose in that case lol


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think the (lame) Naughty Girl refers to a 7A4, but I'm confident @Paladin79 will quickly correct me if I'm wrong.  LOL!  A Sylvania 6J5 would be more like a Prison Slut.


Consider yourself corrected. I am not releasing many specs because then their legend will grow and then people will start getting it wrong, and then they will end up like Bad Boys.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> While you're creating new stuff, I'm fixing old stuff.  Not sure whose job is harder.  LOL!!
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


Stark Industries calling...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I can wait if need be. I would have a trade in and possibly put your Incubus in a nice tiger maple cabinet instead of cardboard. Then most of your stuff would match lol. I also made yours in my early woodworking trials, I stopped using a nail gun lol although staples may have held yours together.


Man, your memory is failing. Mine is duct-taped together.  But it's nice duct tape, just to be fair.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> "like a prison slut" well need to check the holes if they are loose in that case lol


ROFL!!!  I see what you did there.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Consider yourself corrected. I am not releasing many specs because then their legend will grow and then people will start getting it wrong, and then they will end up like Bad Boys.


Let the legend grows as I have a pair from THE father of the Naughty Girls 😁😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Let the legend grows as I have a pair from THE father of the Naughty Girls 😁😁😁


Oh crap now Bill will want some. My relationship to those tubes may have been more avuncular than paternal.😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Is it true that unused tubes for long time would build some gas inside and needs to be burned in again to eliminate any hum ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Oh crap now Bill will want some. My relationship to those tubes may have been more avuncular than paternal.😎


Wait till I start an online marketing campaign at large promoting those tubes first and their magical sound till the point Bill will beg for a couple lol


----------



## Galapac (Apr 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Wait till I start an online marketing campaign at large promoting those tubes first and their magical sound till the point Bill will beg for a couple lol


Now if you can do that for GE tubes you could make Bill a billionaire.

*G*rande _*E*_arache tubes


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Now if you can do that for GE tubes you could make Bill a billionaire.


I won't go that low promoting GEs as false advertising is a federal crime 😆😆. As much as am tempted to see Bill as a Billionaire just to see what would he do with the booty 😁


----------



## Galapac

B.B.     Billionaire Bill does have a ring to it..


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> B.B.     Billionaire Bill does have a ring to it..


I agree.  When do we start?


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> Is it true that unused tubes for long time would build some gas inside and needs to be burned in again to eliminate any hum ?


Is there any truth to this ?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh crap now Bill will want some. My relationship to those tubes may have been more *avuncular* than paternal.😎


OK, you made me look that up.  But now I've got some _serious_ concerns.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Is there any truth to this ?


In general, no.  With tubes there are exceptions to everything of course, but the frequency of this occurring would be _extremely_ low.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> OK, you made me look that up.  But now I've got some _serious_ concerns.


I had to look that up as well 😉


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I had to look that up as well 😉


He might have moved to West Virginia without telling us.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> He might have moved to West Virginia without telling us.


I had a feeling you would be heading to a dictionary lol and we were talking tubes you know.  Your relationship to the Frankie tube is most likely filial.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

Getting back to tubes, I am curious if anyone tried any of the Loktal tubes in the DV? Tall body 7n7's in particular, @bcowen is the resident expert on those. I may have a couple.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Getting back to tubes, I am curious if anyone tried any of the Loktal tubes in the DV? Tall body 7n7's in particular, @bcowen is the resident expert on those. I may have a couple.


No experience here with those tubes but definitely loved the tube storage idea you are using 😍


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> No experience here with those tubes but definitely loved the tube storage idea you are using 😍


I have some decent quality cardboard boxes and the foam can be taken out in little cubes to match most any shape. They come in handy when I ship tubes out for blind challenges or lend out tubes to local folks.

Loktals take special adapters but they are compatible with 6sn7's. Best to get with Bill before buying any of these though lol, there are short body versions as well.

This is much too high of a price for one of these and it is sold as is lol, no returns.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILCO-JAN-CHS-7N7-Tube/254501734439?hash=item3b417c4827:g:aRUAAOSw~PdeN0dM


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Getting back to tubes, I am curious if anyone tried any of the Loktal tubes in the DV? Tall body 7n7's in particular, @bcowen is the resident expert on those. I may have a couple.


I am most pleased to see you are giving your Frankentubes the love and care they deserve.   

I've tried these in both the DV and Incubus.  Nice, but nothing that wow'ed me.  These tubes are great in Schiit's hybrid amps (Vali 2 and Lyr 3), but with the OTL's they just don't sing at the same level. To my ears anyway.  Or perhaps I just haven't paired them with the right power tube at this point.  And the one you linked for $55?  LOL!  Yup, that's pretty overpriced.  I paid $5 for my first Lansdale, and less than $15/each for the other couple dozen. I may have actually paid $16 for the GE labeled one though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I am most pleased to see you are giving your Frankentubes the love and care they deserve.
> 
> I've tried these in both the DV and Incubus.  Nice, but nothing that wow'ed me.  These tubes are great in Schiit's hybrid amps (Vali 2 and Lyr 3), but with the OTL's they just don't sing at the same level. To my ears anyway.  Or perhaps I just haven't paired them with the right power tube at this point.  And the one you linked for $55?  LOL!  Yup, that's pretty overpriced.  I paid $5 for my first Lansdale, and less than $15/each for the other couple dozen. I may have actually paid $16 for the GE labeled one though.


You and your GE tubes! When will you ever learn? 🥴


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You and your GE tubes! When will you ever learn? 🥴


...”those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it”...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You and your GE tubes! When will you ever learn? 🥴


I'm an old dog.  Learning new tricks is so...so....hard.    

And besides, finding GE-labeled tubes that weren't made by GE is one of the best ways to score a deal these days. Everyone else ignores them as soon as they see the GE logo...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have some decent quality cardboard boxes and the foam can be taken out in little cubes to match most any shape. They come in handy when I ship tubes out for blind challenges or lend out tubes to local folks.
> 
> Loktals take special adapters but they are compatible with 6sn7's. Best to get with Bill before buying any of these though lol, there are short body versions as well.
> 
> ...


"Decent quality cardboard" this is @bcowen premium materials used in speaker building 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm an old dog.  Learning new tricks is so...so....hard.
> 
> And besides, finding GE-labeled tubes that weren't made by GE is one of the best ways to score a deal these days. Everyone else ignores them as soon as they see the GE logo...


https://www.etsy.com/listing/901298...ube&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> "Decent quality cardboard" this is @bcowen premium materials used in speaker building 😁😁


I have dibs on cardboard.  @Paladin79 is the only known person that can properly put splines in the corners, but I still claim everything but the splines.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have dibs on cardboard.  @Paladin79 is the only known person that can properly put splines in the corners, but I still claim everything but the splines.


My latest spline work. Another few coats of clear lacquer then final assembly.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My latest spline work. Another few coats of clear lacquer then final assembly.


Very nice wood grain, Final product should look beautiful🤩


----------



## bcowen (Apr 2, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> My latest spline work. Another few coats of clear lacquer then final assembly.


Very pretty!!  Did you put lacquer on my cardboard or Tung oil?  Both finishes sound about the same, but just wondering.   

For my next Incubus, I want dovetailed corners.  Just an advance-FYI.  Never tried it with cardboard to be honest though, but if anyone can do it, it's you.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Very pretty!!  Did you put lacquer on my cardboard or Tung oil?  Both finishes sound about the same, but just wondering.
> 
> For my next Incubus, I want dovetailed corners.  Just an advance-FYI.  Never tried it with cardboard to be honest though, but if anyone can do it, it's you.


Just to get it right, the Incubus is whose brain child exactly 😍 and is it a scratch built or based on a DIY


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Just to get it right, the Incubus is whose brain child exactly 😍 and is it a scratch built or based on a DIY


The Incubus is @Paladin79 's brainchild.  And with Finnegan's involvement, it's most definitely scratch built.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Very pretty!!  Did you put lacquer on my cardboard or Tung oil?  Both finishes sound about the same, but just wondering.
> 
> For my next Incubus, I want dovetailed corners.  Just an advance-FYI.  Never tried it with cardboard to be honest though, but if anyone can do it, it's you.


Start saving your pennies in a jar, you got one free amp the next one is pricey. Bitcoins are accepted.😎

I am not sure I used a store bought finish on your Incubus, I think I just sat it next to Finnegan as he washed himself and that is dried cat saliva on yours.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Just to get it right, the Incubus is whose brain child exactly 😍 and is it a scratch built or based on a DIY


My design, my builds, and scratch built. All cabinets are one of a kind. Bill is different so his is sideways.

Now the speaker box I am making for my wife will have a solid state amp I bought, it has to be portable and I only design Class A amps.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Start saving your pennies in a jar, you got one free amp the next one is pricey. Bitcoins are accepted.😎
> 
> I am not sure I used a store bought finish on your Incubus, I think I just sat it next to Finnegan as he washed himself and that is dried cat saliva on yours.


Well, I suppose I should just be happy you didn't put it in his litter box for a week.  But then I've never done a blind listening test between a saliva and pee finish (and probably won't in the future either).


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My design, my builds, and scratch built. All cabinets are one of a kind. Bill is different so his is sideways.
> 
> Now the speaker box I am making for my wife will have a solid state amp I bought, it has to be portable and I only design Class A amps.


Sounds like the Big kahuna of tube amps when I hear you mentioning it so i did an online search and saw Finnegan next to it in most of the matches 😍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill is different so his is sideways.



That's not entirely correct.  The sideways part, I mean.  Mine is in the correct orientation, and all the others are 90 degrees out of phase.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My design, my builds, and scratch built. All cabinets are one of a kind. Bill is different so his is sideways.
> 
> Now the speaker box I am making for my wife will have a solid state amp I bought, it has to be portable and I only design Class A amps.


Any skeleton of the SS amp yet ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Any skeleton of the SS amp yet ?


Right now I only have the spalted maple and most of the purple heart wood I will need, all electronics are on order but some may get here today.  I am going to try this bluetooth amp and if it sounds awful I will look around more.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08K44GBM9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am using good speakers and I will be competing with an Echo Dot.  I have other such powered speaker devices made by Infinity and Peachtree audio but I wanted my wife to have something I made.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/901298...ube&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1


Nevermind that…
I want to see one of you guys use this "bad boy": https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/789934747/


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 2, 2021)

Just came across those tubes while building my hit list:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/962424...n7&ref=sr_gallery-1-12&organic_search_click=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/921399...n7&ref=sr_gallery-3-27&organic_search_click=1

worth the trial ?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Just came across those tubes while building my hit list:
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/962424...n7&ref=sr_gallery-1-12&organic_search_click=1
> 
> ...


If you're asking for opinions.....

The Sylvania 6F8G is nothing remarkable to my ears.  The Tung Sol 6F8G is.  Look for one of those instead if you want to try that tube type.  The Tung Sols tend to be pricey though.

The Raytheon flat plate 6SN7 is not one of my favorites. Very edgy and fatiguing in the treble.  The T-plate version is a different animal altogether, and one I like a lot.  Some people go gaga over the flat plate versions though, so this is strictly one of those YMMV situations.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Nevermind that…
> I want to see one of you guys use this "bad boy": https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/789934747/


I want to see you hold it in your hand like that once it's up to full operating temp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you're asking for opinions.....
> 
> The Sylvania 6F8G is nothing remarkable to my ears.  The Tung Sol 6F8G is.  Look for one of those instead if you want to try that tube type.  The Tung Sols tend to be pricey though.
> 
> The Raytheon flat plate 6SN7 is not one of my favorites. Very edgy and fatiguing in the treble.  The T-plate version is a different animal altogether, and one I like a lot.  Some people go gaga over the flat plate versions though, so this is strictly one of those YMMV situations.


Would be looking for a Ratheon T plate in that case


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you're asking for opinions.....
> 
> The Sylvania 6F8G is nothing remarkable to my ears.  The Tung Sol 6F8G is.  Look for one of those instead if you want to try that tube type.  The Tung Sols tend to be pricey though.
> 
> The Raytheon flat plate 6SN7 is not one of my favorites. Very edgy and fatiguing in the treble.  The T-plate version is a different animal altogether, and one I like a lot.  Some people go gaga over the flat plate versions though, so this is strictly one of those YMMV situations.


This one ?
https://www.etsy.com/listing/931437...=sr_gallery-1-11&organic_search_click=1&cns=1


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> This one ?
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/931437...=sr_gallery-1-11&organic_search_click=1&cns=1


Yup, that one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yup, that one.


Marked 👹


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Marked 👹


I'm not familiar with that term.  ???  I've only used "Purchased" or "Neverminded."


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm not familiar with that term.  ???  I've only used "Purchased" or "Neverminded."


Marked as in Bullseye 🎯😛😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> Marked 👹


Given the tubes @Paladin79  sent me, does this purchase makes sense ?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Given the tubes @Paladin79  sent me, does this purchase makes sense ?


Buying tubes and making sense are entirely unrelated.  Or at least that's what I thought back when I was still buying tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Buying tubes and making sense are entirely unrelated.  Or at least that's what I thought back when I was still buying tubes.


Shot in the Dark lol, sometimes pulling the trigger is the easiest thing to do. Am taking your words for that tube though 😆
It's on you 😜😜


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Buying tubes and making sense are entirely unrelated.  Or at least that's what I thought back when I was still buying tubes.


I believe you have moved on to asking me to buy them and check them out for you lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I believe you have moved on to asking me to buy them and check them out for you lol.


That's smart 😉😉


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That's smart 😉😉


He knows I am into variations on specific Russian tubes so he plays to my weakness.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe you have moved on to asking me to buy them and check them out for you lol.


Yes.  And?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Now that am doing more listening, I realized a small hum starting around 10 and increasing with the volume but nothing that can really affect the music listening experience.
this hum could also be heard on my 2 other headphones amp while the DV is only ON. Am using a Rolls Switch box with input from the DAC and a switched output to either 3 amps.
Hum disappears from the other 2 amps if I either switch Off the DV or unplug its RCA input from the switch box.
Removing both tubes eliminates the hum, re-installing the 6AS7G tube introduce no hum, only when the 6SN7 is plugged again the hum returns.
Having no ground in place works same as a cheater plug though.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 2, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> He knows I am into variations on specific Russian tubes so he plays to my weakness.


Did you ever get that Melz I sent you the link on?  IIRC, it had the holey plates like a 1578, but all the other construction details were of a regular (non-1578) Melz.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Did you ever gat that Melz I sent you the link on?  IIRC, it had the holey plates like a 1578, but all the other construction details were of a regular (non-1578) Melz.


I will have to check, I have several in transit right now.

I got it, maybe I should listen to it sometime lol.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Having no ground in place works same as a cheater plug though.



And also pretty dangerous.  The DV is probably the last amp in existence I would run with no earth ground connection....


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> And also pretty dangerous.  The DV is probably the last amp in existence I would run with no earth ground connection....


Any idea about the hum source ? is it the tube ?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Any idea about the hum source ? is it the tube ?


Maybe, but probably the DV.  Can you run that tube in either of your other amps (don't know what tubes they use) to see if it hums in one of them?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Maybe, but probably the DV.  Can you run that tube in either of your other amps (don't know what tubes they use) to see if it hums in one of them?


The CTH uses 6922 and have no cross adapters but I can switch tubes. Does it make sense that the DV makes the hum only with the 6SN7 installed ? or it could also be be the DV regardless, probably the transformer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Did you ever get that Melz I sent you the link on?  IIRC, it had the holey plates like a 1578, but all the other construction details were of a regular (non-1578) Melz.


The tube in question is a Melz from 1954, an early version of the perforated plate with oval micas. I plugged it in now, I will get back with you later.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> The CTH uses 6922 and have no cross adapters but I can switch tubes. Does it make sense that the DV makes the hum only with the 6SN7 installed ? or it could also be be the DV regardless, probably the transformer.


The transformer may have some mechanical (external) hum, but unlikely it is causing hum to be heard through your headphones unless something has gone wrong with it.  More likely the tube AND the DV, or said another way, the method in which the 6SN7 is handled electrically in the DV.  That issue alone is probably responsible for 50% of the posts in this thread, and the genesis of the "Fitz Mod" and all the subsequent mods people have implemented to reduce or eliminate it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-6SN7G...883252?hash=item3b524d87f4:g:Cw4AAOSw6xZeus3D

I am not sure if this is a popular Raytheon but the price seems decent.

Now go into the store, and there are ribbed Fotons of various years, if you look hard enough there is a 1961 Melz 1578 that would be a steal. Do not be fooled by the Melz with solid plates and metal upper supports, I bought one and it is not the same as the shiny black plate. The tube I got did not even say Melz on it, it is decent but not the holy grail.

If interested you should be able to find the 61 Melz 1578 in some of the tubes for sale, if still there tomorrow I will own it.

I bought the tube there Bill and I were discussing, I got it for $20 shipping included. I would place it well above the lower end Melz with round micas and ribbed Fotons, not on the same level with 63 1578's but I need to listen more. Dead quiet background. If the high end settles in, this will be a remarkable tube for the price. Melz can be very year specific, and construction specific.  I have yet to replace the solder in the pins on this one and so far it is quite solid.

The same tube I bought for $20...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MILITARY-M...860083?hash=item4475c8a5f3:g:o94AAOSwdttgOJRe

From another seller.


----------



## HTSkywalker

So far my preferred are the 6J5 Naughty Girls (The name was given for a good reason) duo as well as the Dark Glass RCA Hands down 👍👍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-6SN7G...883252?hash=item3b524d87f4:g:Cw4AAOSw6xZeus3D
> 
> I am not sure if this is a popular Raytheon but the price seems decent.
> 
> ...


You're welcome then.  LOL!!!!

Aren't these the Melz that don't exist?  1578 micas and mica supports, yet solid plates?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You're welcome then.  LOL!!!!
> 
> Aren't these the Melz that don't exist?  1578 micas and mica supports, yet solid plates?


Think back grasshopper or read my post again lol. I bought one of these, there is no Melz logo, they need shiny black plates, not grey. The one I got looked like the metal base had been added on. Maybe you can see some of the crimp marks on those tubes. I buy anything that might be close to the real things and these are not it lol.

Also the print they added to the base is pretty sloppy, I could not even make out the year, maybe 1984.  

I even posted pictures of both types some time ago, but you may have slept through that.     Oh and the proper ones have a ribbed plate exactly like the perforated plates if you ignore the perforations.

I own the one on the left in your photo, lucky me lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Think back grasshopper or read my post again lol. I bought one of these, there is no Melz logo, they need shiny black plates, not grey. The one I got looked like the metal base had been added on. Maybe you can see some of the crimp marks on those tubes. I buy anything that might be close to the real things and these are not it lol.
> 
> Also the print they added to the base is pretty sloppy, I could not even make out the year, maybe 1984.
> 
> ...


I don't remember what I had for breakfast, so thanks for the refresher.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I don't remember what I had for breakfast, so thanks for the refresher.


I even sent you one of the good ones but you may not remember. You said something along the lines of “it ranks with some of the best tubes I have heard” or some such lol. From now on all amazing tubes go to Ripper!!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I even sent you one of the good ones but you may not remember. You said something along the lines of “it ranks with some of the best tubes I have heard” or some such lol. From now on all amazing tubes go to Ripper!!!!


Oh, I remember that tube.  I just didn't examine the internal details under a microscope 24/7 for 6 days.  I remember resting on the 7th day though.  

But if that means everything is going to @Ripper2860 from now on, I suddenly remember everything you've said.  Every word, in fact.  In order.  And from even before I met you.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 2, 2021)

The worm has turned, my friend.


----------



## Galapac

What about these? 1940s?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8M-...363466?hash=item3b5245998a:g:e8IAAOSwmOhftr95

or these? 1950s?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8S-...336079?hash=item3b52452e8f:g:OfcAAOSw8xVftrcm


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> What about these? 1940s?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8M-...363466?hash=item3b5245998a:g:e8IAAOSwmOhftr95



@Paladin79 was in high school then.  He might remember them.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> What about these? 1940s?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8M-...363466?hash=item3b5245998a:g:e8IAAOSwmOhftr95
> 
> Similar I would think. I am playing a 54 now and bass and mids are exquisite and the highs are getting better. My Utopias are starting to like this tube.😸
> ...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 was in high school then.  He might remember them.


Only GE tubes for you from now on!!😺


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> "Decent quality cardboard" this is @bcowen premium materials used in speaker home building 😁😁


----------



## Ripper2860

@bcowen is his own worst enemy.  It's almost too sad to watch.  Almost.  😜


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 3, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen is his own worst enemy.  It's almost too sad to watch.  Almost.  😜


But we all love him despite his GE hoarding tendencies 💗💗
After all he is the discoverer of the Naughty Girls


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> But we all love him despite his GE hoarding tendencies 💗💗
> After all he is the discoverer of the Naughty Girls


In his dreams he is!!!  Bill was watching an old Frankenstein movie and came up with the Frankentube 🙀

I need to think of a name for the special Melz tube, I believe @Ripper2860 owns one now as well. Maybe something like the Black Russian because of the shiny black plates.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 3, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> In his dreams he is!!!  Bill was watching an old Frankenstein movie and came up with the Frankentube 🙀
> 
> I need to think of a name for the special Melz tube, I believe @Ripper2860 owns one now as well. Maybe something like the Black Russian because of the shiny black plates.


Black Russian Melz aka BRM 😊
Or The Black Tsar or Tsarina 😛


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Black Russian Melz aka BRM 😊
> Or The Black Tsar or Tsarina 😛


See tube naming is easy lol. I like Black Russian Melz.
Finding one of these tubes can be a challenge, I got one with a group of tubes and it took six months of constant search to find three more and they are not for sale.😉

The perforated plate Melz I am checking out has had nearly 24 hours of burn in and this is a very nice tube.  It is well balanced, the audio spectrum is where I like it to be, I cannot get it into the tube challenge because a BRM is already there but I suspect it would get a rating of 90 or higher, the BRM is getting 94's and 95's in preliminary tests.

Listening to Sunrise by Larry Carlton and the soundstage is where it needs to be, early there was a bit of harshness in the highs but not now. This is a keeper. Mind you most of the Russian tubes hum loudly in a standard DV so caveat emptor. The often require the tube pins to be resoldered just like the Fotons.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> See tube naming is easy lol.
> Finding one of these tubes can be a challenge, I got one with a group of tubes and it took six months of constant search to find three more and they are not for sale.😉


I was never good in selling anything, only in buying 😂😂 
Just imagine how talented would be a a GE tube salesman, if he excel in his job he can definitely sell Ice to Eskimos and make a fortune out of it. Definitely excluding @bcowen from the list of tube customers as he will buy out the whole stock lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I was never good in selling anything, only in buying 😂😂
> Just imagine how talented would be a a GE tube salesman, if he excel in his job he can definitely sell Ice to Eskimos and make a fortune out of it. Definitely excluding @bcowen from the list of tube customers as he will buy out the whole stock lol


You always have to consider the tubes original use, many such tubes were used in radios or televisions and SQ was not a huge factor. Many were built for higher standards for war time use as far as ruggedness and longevity. The Russian tubes are a great example, many were used in military equipment and if you find just the right year and right construction a tube might sound wonderful in modern headphone amps. RCA was still building tubes up to the mid to late seventies yet were they anywhere near as good as some of their tubes from the forties and fifties? The grey glass RCA is a great example. Bill did a lot of discovery with Fotons and even some of the less expensive Melz, and there are still bargains to be found but in the case of Melz, you best do some research. Foton if you go for fifties versions with ribbed plates you are doing pretty well for their price. Getting the present tube I was describing for $20 total may not happen again, as tubes get less plentiful and people find out about them, the price goes up. 

Ok time for me to see if I can get two Incubi in my shop to sound like they are supposed to, cabinetry is nearly done but I will check back on the Melz tube throughout the day.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> But we all love him despite his GE hoarding tendencies 💗💗
> After all he is the discoverer of the Naughty Girls


You’ve seen Bad Boys (watcha gonna do)...
You’ve heard of Naughty Girls (yes!)
Now I give you...”Tough Dogs”, Lolz 😂 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN...b&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> You’ve seen Bad Boys (watcha gonna do)...
> You’ve heard of Naughty Girls (yes!)
> Now I give you...”Tough Dogs”, Lolz 😂
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN7GT-RARE-1953-TOUGH-DOG-2-HOLE-GRAY-PLATES-TALL-GLASS-NIB-NEAR-MINT/203266818878?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=231648&meid=f9b6e5ebaa8b4db3bbf5544d9f72f4eb&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=284243576834&itm=203266818878&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


😍😍😍😍 nice bread


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> You’ve seen Bad Boys (watcha gonna do)...
> You’ve heard of Naughty Girls (yes!)
> Now I give you...”Tough Dogs”, Lolz 😂
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN7GT-RARE-1953-TOUGH-DOG-2-HOLE-GRAY-PLATES-TALL-GLASS-NIB-NEAR-MINT/203266818878?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=231648&meid=f9b6e5ebaa8b4db3bbf5544d9f72f4eb&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=284243576834&itm=203266818878&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


LOL I think I might own one or two of those but never heard that term before.


----------



## Galapac

I picked up one of these to try out...I got the one from 1949.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8M-...5&toolid=10001&customid=kn1sdcsg3l01zlp100004


----------



## Paladin79

I just ordered the 1961 Melz 1578 version from that same seller, I love the sound of the early sixties in that type of tube. They look similar but the sound drastically changed on those from the 70's and 80's.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 3, 2021)

I searched and searched and now have found the moniker given to GE tubes in Russia.  GE's are not bad boys, tough dogs, etc.  In Russia, they are lovingly called 'Molotov Cocktails'!!


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> You’ve seen Bad Boys (watcha gonna do)...
> You’ve heard of Naughty Girls (yes!)
> Now I give you...”Tough Dogs”, Lolz 😂
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN7GT-RARE-1953-TOUGH-DOG-2-HOLE-GRAY-PLATES-TALL-GLASS-NIB-NEAR-MINT/203266818878?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=231648&meid=f9b6e5ebaa8b4db3bbf5544d9f72f4eb&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=284243576834&itm=203266818878&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


We were laughing about this seller in another thread.  Both triodes of every tube in the dozens of listings he has all measure exactly at 200 microamps.  He sure has a talent for finding tubes that not only have perfectly matched triodes, but all match up with _each other _perfectly, regardless of manufacturer or when they were manufactured.  I wonder if he actually turns his tester on, or maybe the needle is just permanently stuck on 200 microamps.  ROFL!!


----------



## DenverW

I have some Dough Boys up for sale soon.  Perfectly matched at 200 ma.


----------



## Ripper2860

I am searching for a pair of 'Big Boys' and 'Backstreet Boys' for Bill.  Doing him a favor since the terms of his parole prevent him from using a computer to search for anything with the word 'boys'.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> I have some Dough Boys up for sale soon.  Perfectly matched at 200 ma.


I already have some of those.  I'm still looking for some Pastry Debutantes though if you have any of those?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I am searching for a pair of 'Big Boys' and 'Backstreet Boys' for Bill.  Doing him a favor since the terms of his parole prevent him from using a computer to search for anything with the word 'boys'.


That was pretty funny...

Except I'm not up for parole again until 2031.  Jerk.


----------



## Ripper2860

See what happens when I get a full 8 hours of sleep?!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL I think I might own one or two of those but never heard that term before.


Hope they don't bark 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> We were laughing about this seller in another thread.  Both triodes of every tube in the dozens of listings he has all measure exactly at 200 microamps.  He sure has a talent for finding tubes that not only have perfectly matched triodes, but all match up with _each other _perfectly, regardless of manufacturer or when they were manufactured.  I wonder if he actually turns his tester on, or maybe the needle is just permanently stuck on 200 microamps.  ROFL!!


You get charged for Balance triodes, High Gain, Low noise and matching each $2 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I am searching for a pair of 'Big Boys' and 'Backstreet Boys' for Bill.  Doing him a favor since the terms of his parole prevent him from using a computer to search for anything with the word 'boys'.


And that makes you........... 🙊🙊 probably a cell mate soon lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 3, 2021)

What!!??   He swore that they were nicknames for WWII era 6SN7 tubes!!   

I should have guessed something was up when I kept getting a "Page not Found" error.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> What!!??   He swore that they were nicknames for WWII era 6SN7 tubes!!
> 
> I should have guessed something was up when I kept getting a "Page not Found" error.


Yeah yeah very convincing, good luck with the Feds buying it 😊😊 especially the WW stuff and Russian tubes 😂😂😊


----------



## Paladin79

It's best to keep Bill from looking for more works by this group, you get a lot of differing results when you search for "Two Nice Girls."


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah yeah very convincing, good luck with the Feds buying it 😊😊 especially the WW stuff and Russian tubes 😂😂😊


*HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE RUSSIAN!!!!   *

Besides, who are the FBI going to believe? A decorated war veteran, medal of honor recipient, and NSA employee responsible for uncovering and thwarting a global alien invasion of Earth?

-- Or--

A compulsive exaggerator, hater of a fine American companies (GE, Goodyear, Ford, etc), petty larcenist, and a thrice convicted felon convicted of defrauding people by misrepresenting the 'health' of the vacuum tubes he offered to test?  (Paypal and the USPS were used making this a federal crime, BTW).

I think I'm good.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> It's best to keep Bill from looking for more works by this group, you get a lot of differing results when you search for "Two Nice Girls."



Oh please DO NOT search the internet with the term “*Two Girls*”... you have been warned...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It's best to keep Bill from looking for more works by this group, you get a lot of differing results when you search for "Two Nice Girls."



Yeah, unfortunately for us @Ripper2860 's mom spent the entire $10 on the beer...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> *HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE RUSSIAN!!!!   *
> 
> Besides, who are the FBI going to believe? A decorated war veteran, medal of honor recipient, and NSA employee responsible for uncovering and thwarting a global alien invasion of Earth?
> 
> ...


I feel a rebuttal is appropriate here:

_"A compulsive exaggerator"_
Just because everything I have is the best and everything you have is, um, not exactly, that is not the definition of an exaggerator.  
_
"hater of a fine American companies (GE, Goodyear, Ford, etc)"_
Since you didn't name any companies that would fit the definition of "fine," this is wholly irrelevant.

_"petty larcenist"_
I think you misspelled p*r*etty.

_"and a thrice convicted felon convicted of defrauding people by misrepresenting the 'health' of the vacuum tubes he offered to test?"_
If this were in fact a "thing," BangyBang would be serving a 72,000 year prison sentence.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> _"and a thrice convicted felon convicted of defrauding people by misrepresenting the 'health' of the vacuum tubes he offered to test?"_
> If this were in fact a "thing," BangyBang would be serving a 72,000 year prison sentence.



Say hello to Mr. Bang for me.  



> Yeah, unfortunately for us @Ripper2860 's mom spent the entire $10 on the beer...



Ohhhh.  That was a good one.  You better go lay down and rest for a bit!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> We were laughing about this seller in another thread.  Both triodes of every tube in the dozens of listings he has all measure exactly at 200 microamps.  He sure has a talent for finding tubes that not only have perfectly matched triodes, but all match up with _each other _perfectly, regardless of manufacturer or when they were manufactured.  I wonder if he actually turns his tester on, or maybe the needle is just permanently stuck on 200 microamps.  ROFL!!


Just the Henry Ford approach: you can have any current that you want as long as it is 200 mA......c(r)apitalism at its best....


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> I have some Dough Boys up for sale soon.  Perfectly matched at 200 ma.


Can Pillsburys be a ‘feeder’ tube to GEs?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I am searching for a pair of 'Big Boys' and 'Backstreet Boys' for Bill.  Doing him a favor since the terms of his parole prevent him from using a computer to search for anything with the word 'boys'.


What about 7N7 ‘Lansdale Lads’?...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What about 7N7 ‘Lansdale Lads’?...


They are ok in some amps, I have never been very impressed compared to other 6SN7 equivalents


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I feel a rebuttal is appropriate here:
> 
> _"A compulsive exaggerator"_
> Just because everything I have is the best and everything you have is, um, not exactly, that is not the definition of an exaggerator.
> ...


It’s a pity you did not pursue a lawyer profession. You did pretty darn well 💪💪💪
Now you can rest your case as you knocked down @Ripper2860  pretty hard


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 4, 2021)

Happy Easter 🐣🐇🐰  everyone, in this part of the world on Easter Sunday we have the habit of competing in cracking boiled colored eggs against each other (@Paladin79  should be familiar with this practice from his DIL).
Suddenly the GE tubes came to my mind 😛😛😛 (don’t mean to offend @Ripper2860 patriotic feelings though)


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Happy Easter 🐣🐇🐰  everyone, in this part of the world on Easter Sunday we have the habit of competing in cracking boiled colored eggs against each other (@Paladin79  should be familiar with this practice from his DIL).
> Suddenly the GE tubes came to my mind 😛😛😛 (don’t mean to offend @Ripper2860 patriotic feelings though)


Happy Easter and I have heard of that practice with Easter eggs.


----------



## Ripper2860

HTSkywalker said:


> It’s a pity you did not pursue a lawyer profession. You did pretty darn well 💪💪💪
> Now you can rest your case as you knocked down @Ripper2860  pretty hard



Pffft.  It'll take more than that.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 4, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> What about 7N7 ‘Lansdale Lads’?...


Sounds great on the Darkvoice with a 5998  behind it.. (now to find my copy of that one...)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you're asking for opinions.....
> 
> The Sylvania 6F8G is nothing remarkable to my ears.  The Tung Sol 6F8G is.  Look for one of those instead if you want to try that tube type.  The Tung Sols tend to be pricey though.
> 
> The Raytheon flat plate 6SN7 is not one of my favorites. Very edgy and fatiguing in the treble.  The T-plate version is a different animal altogether, and one* I like a lot*.  Some people go gaga over the flat plate versions though, so this is strictly one of those YMMV situations.


the last T-Plate shipped from LowTechElec this morning. the "I like it a lot" coming from you made it a no brainer 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 5, 2021)

BTW I have a friend who owns the Elear as well and coupling it with a polish amp Feliks Audio Elise and another friend who also have the Echo Mark II with the Utopia (more budget friendly amp) and they both swore by those amps.
Anyone have experience with those products ? Focal uses the Felix Euforia as there reference tube headphone amps with the Utopia.
http://feliksaudio.pl/
US Dealer:
https://upscaleaudio.com/


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW I have a friend who owns the Elear as well and coupling it with a polish amp Feliks Audio Elise and another friend who also have the Echo Mark II with the Utopia (more budget friendly amp) and they both swore by those amps.
> Anyone have experience with those products ? Focal uses the Felix Euforia as there reference tube headphone amps with the Utopia.
> http://feliksaudio.pl/
> US Dealer:
> https://upscaleaudio.com/



There is discussion of the Feliks amps in this thread but not much action lately.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/page-72

They looks like great amps and these use similar tubes to the DV/339i which is a plus if you intend to switch at  some point..
I have no personal experience with them but they are always on my short/want list of amps.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> There is discussion of the Feliks amps in this thread but not much action lately.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/page-72
> 
> They looks like great amps and these use similar tubes to the DV/339i which is a plus if you intend to switch at  some point..
> I have no personal experience with them but they are always on my short/want list of amps.


The Echo MKII uses 2x  6N6P and 2x 6N1P equ to 6922 same like the Cavalli CTH


----------



## Galapac

Pet peeve of  the day...
Paying a premium for certain tubes and getting no boxes for them. 
Just irritates me...
I mean they are at least bubble wrapped but c'mon...how am I supposed to store these unless I buy the boxes?

Maybe old light bulb boxes?


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> Pet peeve of  the day...
> Paying a premium for certain tubes and getting no boxes for them.
> Just irritates me...
> I mean they are at least bubble wrapped but c'mon...how am I supposed to store these unless I buy the boxes?
> ...


Boxes included is rare and a joy when you get one included, especially if it's the original packaging. Vacuum tube retailers generally have em for sale in bulk.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Boxes included is rare and a joy when you get one included, especially if it's the original packaging. Vacuum tube retailers generally have em for sale in bulk.


I once saw cylindric hard cardboard (@bcowen grade 😃) tube boxes with caps but can't remember where.


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> I once saw cylindric hard cardboard (@bcowen grade 😃) tube boxes with caps but can't remember where.


What, you mean these things? https://www.ebay.com/b/Cardboard-Tu...55-0&campid=5337839255&customid=&toolid=10001

Personally, I go with the pyro ones just cause you can blow 'em up if they don't work out for storing tubes


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> What, you mean these things? https://www.ebay.com/b/Cardboard-Tu...55-0&campid=5337839255&customid=&toolid=10001
> 
> Personally, I go with the pyro ones just cause you can blow 'em up if they don't work out for storing tubes


They look like Bangybang ammo shells after wallet bombardment....


----------



## Galapac

I got a pair of Chatham 6080WA today and I am really surprised by how good they sound. I have them mated with a pair of Volvo EF86s and they sound really detailed. A little on the bright side but the mids have opened as well. I used a bit of EQ to add a little bottom but for $50 a pair I have nothing to complain about.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> What, you mean these things? https://www.ebay.com/b/Cardboard-Tu...55-0&campid=5337839255&customid=&toolid=10001
> 
> Personally, I go with the pyro ones just cause you can blow 'em up if they don't work out for storing tubes


Yeah pretty close but more decent looking with a cap in place 😊


----------



## Galapac (Apr 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah pretty close but more decent looking with a cap in place 😊


I know exactly what you are talking about...this seller:
https://www.ebay.com/str/audiosnackhouse?_trksid=p2047675.l2563


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I know exactly what you are talking about...this seller:
> https://www.ebay.com/str/audiosnackhouse?_trksid=p2047675.l2563


You nailed it 👍 not sure if he sells the empty shells though.


----------



## Mr Trev

Didn't they used to sell BBs in tubes like that?


----------



## Hamlap (Apr 6, 2021)

My 336SE turned up today from Drop here in the Netherlands. First listen with the Verite Closed is nice, but I assumed that the tubes that came with the DV aren't the best.

What's a nice upgrade here, with the VC's?


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 6, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Hamlap said:
> 
> 
> > My 366SE turned up today from Drop here in the Netherlands. First listen with the Verite Closed is nice, but I assumed that the tubes that came with the DV aren't the best.
> ...


The world is yours...so many to chose from...get ready to empty your bank account. Currently jamming to Sylvania VT-231 & 5998... Sweet mix.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Hamlap said:


> My 366SE turned up today from Drop here in the Netherlands. First listen with the Verite Closed is nice, but I assumed that the tubes that came with the DV aren't the best.
> 
> What's a nice upgrade here, with the VC's?


Oh thought a new DV 366 is out and went to search for it on Internet 🤪🤪
Glad it was a typo


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> The world is yours...so many to chose from...get ready to empty your bank account. Currently jamming to Sylvania VT-231 & 5998... Sweet mix.


How does the 5998 compares to the 6AS7G ?


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> How does the 5998 compares to the 6AS7G ?


It's an immediate upgrade, one you won't have to swap back an fourth to pick up on. They squeeze everything out of any tube in front of it.... everything... worth the hunt. 6520 with domino plates are disguised 5998.. 421a are premium 5998.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 6, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Pet peeve of  the day...
> Paying a premium for certain tubes and getting no boxes for them.
> Just irritates me...
> I mean they are at least bubble wrapped but c'mon...how am I supposed to store these unless I buy the boxes?
> ...


Aw, man...boxes are cheap.  None of my Fotons had boxes (initially).  Cheap Russians.


----------



## wideload

@bcowen I’m gonna wait until you buy another amp, then offer Mrs. bcowen $500 *cash* for that closet of glass. Bwahh ha ha! 😀


----------



## Galapac (Apr 6, 2021)

*Unobtainium* tube of the day goes to:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...312114?hash=item2f539dc7b2:g:xNwAAOSwbhVgGOrs

A new high for this tube. The price would make you think it sounds like the angels of heaven are playing inside your ear. 🤪


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> *Unobtainium* tube of the day goes to:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...312114?hash=item2f539dc7b2:g:xNwAAOSwbhVgGOrs
> 
> A new high for this tube. The price would make you think it sounds like the angels of heaven are playing inside your ear. 🤪


Only $3000!? 😒


----------



## Galapac (Apr 6, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Only $3000!? 😒


...or $145 a month for 24 months on PayPal credit 😂
...then the killer...$100 shipping because it comes to you via teleporter.


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> ...or $145 a month for 24 months on PayPal credit 😂
> ...then the killer...$100 shipping because it comes to you via teleporter.


The kicker is it just tests OK...like its barely above minimum.   But yeah...better be delivered by transporter in a diamond blinged out box.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> *Unobtainium* tube of the day goes to:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...312114?hash=item2f539dc7b2:g:xNwAAOSwbhVgGOrs
> 
> A new high for this tube. The price would make you think it sounds like the angels of heaven are playing inside your ear. 🤪


Yeah, and in the other ear the little devil is singing "even *I* would have been a moron to pay that"  (all while the seller is rolling all over the floor laughing his a$$ off).


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Only $3000!? 😒


Bummer. huh?  If only he had 2 pairs for sale....


----------



## bcowen

wideload said:


> @bcowen I’m gonna wait until you buy another amp, then offer Mrs. bcowen $500 *cash* for that closet of glass. Bwahh ha ha! 😀


Mrs. bcowen has already been properly educated.  She still has no clue what a tube is or does, but she is aware that the stash could probably buy her 1k pairs of shoes.  *That* she understands.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> *Unobtainium* tube of the day goes to:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...312114?hash=item2f539dc7b2:g:xNwAAOSwbhVgGOrs
> 
> A new high for this tube. The price would make you think it sounds like the angels of heaven are playing inside your ear. 🤪


or the messengers of Bangybang are playing inside your wallet....should one be reassured that the tubes test only “OK”....?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mrs. bcowen has already been properly educated.  She still has no clue what a tube is or does, but she is aware that the stash could probably buy her 1k pairs of shoes.  *That* she understands.


Maybe 800 pairs considering the GEs....


----------



## hottyson

Hamlap said:


> My 336SE turned up today from Drop here in the Netherlands. First listen with the Verite Closed is nice, but I assumed that the tubes that came with the DV aren't the best.
> 
> What's a nice upgrade here, with the VC's?


I bought a few tubes from eBay, all cheaper ones. I don't have much listening in yet due mostly using the amp for long burn in sessions. However, I am liking the inexpensive Russian tubes over the NOS American tubes. Particularly Foton 6N8S driver tube with Svetlana 6N5S power tube. Bargain tubes, yet very good sound. The eBay seller I purchased them from was hds-group just in case anyone was wondering. And, all of my purchased tubes except for one Russian tube have required burn in to get rid of buzzing. Anywhere from 5 hours to 78 hours of burn in to get rid of buzzing. Stock Chinese tubes came buzz free.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> *Unobtainium* tube of the day goes to:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...312114?hash=item2f539dc7b2:g:xNwAAOSwbhVgGOrs
> 
> A new high for this tube. The price would make you think it sounds like the angels of heaven are playing inside your ear. 🤪


Encounter with angels is guaranteed if you buy those and we rat you to Mrs. Galapac 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> ...or $145 a month for 24 months on PayPal credit 😂
> ...then the killer...$100 shipping because it comes to you via teleporter.


Probably the $100 is due to the armed vehicle used for transportation by USPS 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Bummer. huh?  If only he had 2 pairs for sale....


In case you show an interest in those at this price, am sure the seller can come up with an even more precious pair lol 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Hamlap

hottyson said:


> I bought a few tubes from eBay, all cheaper ones. I don't have much listening in yet due mostly using the amp for long burn in sessions. However, I am liking the inexpensive Russian tubes over the NOS American tubes. Particularly Foton 6N8S driver tube with Svetlana 6N5S power tube. Bargain tubes, yet very good sound. The eBay seller I purchased them from was hds-group just in case anyone was wondering. And, all of my purchased tubes except for one Russian tube have required burn in to get rid of buzzing. Anywhere from 5 hours to 78 hours of burn in to get rid of buzzing. Stock Chinese tubes came buzz free.


Are you referring to these two:
https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=664
https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=107


----------



## hottyson

Hamlap said:


> Are you referring to these two:
> https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=664
> https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=107


Those are exactly the ones! Great sound on the cheap.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 7, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> or the messengers of Bangybang are playing inside your wallet....should one be reassured that the tubes test only “OK”....?


Those particular tubes actually test pretty well *if* the seller's tester has been calibrated recently (like within the last couple years at minimum) and *if* his pictures are an honest representation.  Not saying they aren't, but all you have to do with any of these testers is crank the line voltage pot up a bit and even nearly dead tubes can "show" that they test very high in GM.   I looked though the seller's photos quite a bit and didn't see anything that looked suspicious, but again, when was his tester last calibrated?  If it was more than a couple years ago, the readings are meaningless.  TV-7's are a supreme PITA to fully calibrate and get dialed in correctly, and I speak from experience on that.  There's also the fact that if I spent $3k on a pair of 6SN7's the real issue at hand would be that my _brain _was out of calibration even more than usual (which would be hard).


----------



## Galapac

hottyson said:


> Those are exactly the ones! Great sound on the cheap.


I may add that I have 6N5S Svetlanas from the 50s, 60s, and 70s and the 1950s Svetlanas do sound the best of the bunch. The 60s and 70s I have are about the same. Not a huge difference but the sound appears to be more lush and full in the 1950's versions I have.


----------



## perkdet (Apr 7, 2021)

I _finally_ pulled the Trigger on the DarkVoice and like everyone else found that the stock tubes didn't cut it.  I replaced them with what seems to be the internet's default replacement pair: Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z 6SNT and NOS 1953 RCA Black Plate 6AS7G. Perhaps this is a little pedestrian at this point considering the recent conversations in this thread, but I'm just so darn happy to say that the DarkVoice now sounds completely different from any amp I've heard (in a good way)! It's so warm and happy; like I'm a grilled sausage popped into a freshly toasted bun. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## HTSkywalker

perkdet said:


> I _finally_ pulled the Trigger on the DarkVoice and like everyone else found that the stock tubes didn't cut it.  I replaced them with what seems to be the internet's default replacement pair: Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z 6SNT and NOS 1953 RCA Black Plate 6AS7G. Perhaps this is a little pedestrian at this point considering the recent conversations in this thread, but I'm just so darn happy to say that the DarkVoice now sounds completely different from any amp I've heard (in a good way)! It's so warm and happy; like I'm a grilled sausage popped into a freshly toasted bun. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Which cans are You pairing with the DV ? 
RCA 6AS7G can stay in the back, roll the 6SN7 in the front. The Shuguang is silent but not much on the warm side.


----------



## perkdet

HTSkywalker said:


> Which cans are You pairing with the DV ?
> RCA 6AS7G can stay in the back, roll the 6SN7 in the front. The Shuguang is silent but not much on the warm side.


6xx and T1.2 mostly.  Perhaps I perceive more warmth based on comparisons to the amps I have/had (Hagerman Tuba and Feliks Echo)?  I hear them as smooth/clear whereas with the DarkVoice I get smooth/warm. Is there one or two 6SN7s under, say, $75 you'd recommend? Let's shoot for double-wrapped in sleeping bags!


----------



## HTSkywalker

perkdet said:


> 6xx and T1.2 mostly.  Perhaps I perceive more warmth based on comparisons to the amps I have/had (Hagerman Tuba and Feliks Echo)?  I hear them as smooth/clear whereas with the DarkVoice I get smooth/warm. Is there one or two 6SN7s under, say, $75 you'd recommend? Let's shoot for double-wrapped in sleeping bags!


From my short experience I can recommend the RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass and Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT 2 Holes. Ordered the Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT231 T Plates as well (recommended by @bcowen ) and should be brilliant too.


----------



## bcowen

perkdet said:


> 6xx and T1.2 mostly.  Perhaps I perceive more warmth based on comparisons to the amps I have/had (Hagerman Tuba and Feliks Echo)?  I hear them as smooth/clear whereas with the DarkVoice I get smooth/warm. Is there one or two 6SN7s under, say, $75 you'd recommend? Let's shoot for double-wrapped in sleeping bags!


Certainly nothing wrong with smooth/warm (that's usually my preference too), but if you want to liven things up a bit try a '50's Foton 6N8S (cheap) or an early '60's or '50's Melz 6N8S (good ones can be found for around $50).  A true Melz 1578 is going to be closer to $100 so a bit above your budget. Both of those may require pin resoldering, so be aware of that up front. The Raytheon is a good bet too (T-plates are my preference). Lots of flavors, but if you're already on the warm side then some of the other highly regarded suspects (RCA and Ken-Rad black/gray glass from the '40's and '50's) might be too much of a good thing.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Those particular tubes actually test pretty well *if* the seller's tester has been calibrated recently (like within the last couple years at minimum) and *if* his pictures are an honest representation.  Not saying they aren't, but all you have to do with any of these testers is crank the line voltage pot up a bit and even nearly dead tubes can "show" that they test very high in GM.   I looked though the seller's photos quite a bit and didn't see anything that looked suspicious, but again, when was his tester last calibrated?  If it was more than a couple years ago, the readings are meaningless.  TV-7's are a supreme PITA to fully calibrate and get dialed in correctly, and I speak from experience on that.  There's also the fact that if I spent $3k on a pair of 6SN7's the real issue at hand would be that my _brain _was out of calibration even more than usual (which would be hard).


Thank you, this is informative......As a corollary, would your brain re-calibrate if enough voltage was applied to the carotid arteries _a la_ Frankencowen?...⚡️⚡️


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Certainly nothing wrong with smooth/warm (that's usually my preference too), but if you want to liven things up a bit try a '50's Foton 6N8S (cheap) or an early '60's or '50's Melz 6N8S (good ones can be found for around $50).  A true Melz 1578 is going to be closer to $100 so a bit above your budget. Both of those may require pin resoldering, so be aware of that up front. The Raytheon is a good bet too (T-plates are my preference). Lots of flavors, but if you're already on the warm side then some of the other highly regarded suspects (RCA and Ken-Rad black/gray glass from the '40's and '50's) might be too much of a good thing.


Would a Tung Sol 5998 in the back makes a subtle upgrade to an RCA 6AS7G or a Svetlana Winged C ?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Would a Tung Sol 5998 in the back makes a subtle upgrade to an RCA 6AS7G or a Svetlana Winged C ?


Yes.  And more than subtle.  Like way.    

We all have our own opinions and preferences of course, but the TS 5998 is one of my most favorite tubes in both the DV and the Incubus. It was made to rock, and rock it does. It's not the _only_ great sounding tube obviously, but I find the majority of my listening time split between it and the Chatham graphite plate 6080.  I like the Winged C, the Mullard 6080, the Chatham 6AS7G, Chatham/Tung Sol steel plate 6080, and even the Cetron 7236 (with the exact right proper godly-aligned, approved, authenticated, and officially blessed driver tube...yes, it's persnickety as all get out but can be righteous with a 40's RCA or Ken-Rad in front.  But I think it's really hard NOT to like the 5998 even if you try. I actually prefer the TS 5998 to the venerable WE 421A, although the (lone) 421A I have tests quite a bit lower in GM than my 5998's, so that _could_ be a factor. YMMV and all the usual.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Thank you, this is informative......As a corollary, would your brain re-calibrate if enough voltage was applied to the carotid arteries _a la_ Frankencowen?...⚡️⚡️


Unlikely.  The excess voltage would probably melt the neighborhood substation, throw all my neighbors into the dark, and then _they_ would proceed to recalibrate me with finely tuned surgical instruments like sledgehammers and crowbars.  Maybe an aluminum bat or two as well.


----------



## hottyson

Galapac said:


> I may add that I have 6N5S Svetlanas from the 50s, 60s, and 70s and the 1950s Svetlanas do sound the best of the bunch. The 60s and 70s I have are about the same. Not a huge difference but the sound appears to be more lush and full in the 1950's versions I have.


Thank you for the tip on the Svetlana 6N5S!
.
Now that I have burned in more tubes I have been listening to my Fonon 6N8S driver tube. I now prefer this Fonon 6N8S over the Foton 6N8S. It still has a very slight hum when no music is playing, but too slight to bother me and I am thinking that it might disappear with use.
.
On another note, I also listened to GE 6SN7 GTB now burned in and it sounds pleasant. Not as good as the Russian tubes but I could see me listening with it when in the mood for a darker laid back sound.


----------



## Galapac

hottyson said:


> On another note, I also listened to GE 6SN7 GTB now burned in and it sounds pleasant.


You just made a friend in @bcowen with that statement ^^^^  🤣


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> You just made a friend in @bcowen with that statement ^^^^  🤣


LOL!  Chances are it wasn't actually made by GE.


----------



## perkdet

HTSkywalker said:


> RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass and Sylvania 6SN7 6SN7GT 2 Holes [and] Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT231 T Plates as well.





bcowen said:


> ...try a '50's Foton 6N8S (cheap) or an early '60's or '50's Melz 6N8S (good ones can be found for around $50). The Raytheon is a good bet too (T-plates are my preference). [O]ther highly regarded suspects (RCA and Ken-Rad black/gray glass from the '40's and '50's) might be too much of a good thing.



YES.  Spend my money!


----------



## bcowen

hottyson said:


> Thank you for the tip on the Svetlana 6N5S!
> .
> Now that I have burned in more tubes I have been listening to my Fonon 6N8S driver tube. I now prefer this Fonon 6N8S over the Foton 6N8S. It still has a very slight hum when no music is playing, but too slight to bother me and I am thinking that it might disappear with use.
> .
> On another note, I also listened to GE 6SN7 GTB now burned in and it sounds pleasant. Not as good as the Russian tubes but I could see me listening with it when in the mood for a darker laid back sound.


To my knowledge, there is no such tube as a "Fonon," other than a Russian seller or two that list them as such (either due to language differences or typos).  There are quite audible differences within the Fotons themselves though, with the 1950's production years sounding better (to my ears) than the early '60's, and the early '60's sound better than late 60's or beyond.  The year should be listed to the bottom right of the Foton diamond...if it's still legible.  

Below a 1953 with ribbed plates (anodes) with the year in the yellow circle:


----------



## bcowen

perkdet said:


> YES.  Spend my money!


I'm _really_ good at that.  How much 'ya got?


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> To my knowledge, there is no such tube as a "Fonon," other than a Russian seller or two that list them as such (either due to language differences or typos).  There are quite audible differences within the Fotons themselves though, with the 1950's production years sounding better (to my ears) than the early '60's, and the early '60's sound better than late 60's or beyond.  The year should be listed to the bottom right of the Foton diamond...if it's still legible.
> 
> Below a 1953 with ribbed plates (anodes) with the year in the yellow circle:


@bcowen - Transplanting Foton tubes one by one from mother Russia 🇷🇺 to the U.S.A. 🇺🇸 through the tube exchange program...working tirelessly to free all tubes in the name of audio...


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - Transplanting Foton tubes one by one from mother Russia 🇷🇺 to the U.S.A. 🇺🇸 through the tube exchange program...working tirelessly to free all tubes in the name of audio...


LOL!  It's my patriotic duty.  The Russians are simply not allowed to have better sounding tubes than us, even if they made them.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - Transplanting Foton tubes one by one from mother Russia 🇷🇺 to the U.S.A. 🇺🇸 through the tube exchange program...working tirelessly to free all tubes in the name of audio...


Kudos to double agent Comrade Cowen for the Cold War heist to end heists: 1-1/2 GEs per Foton, 1-3/4 GEs per Reflektor...all exchanged over seven days at 23:00h outside Lubyanka...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Kudos to double agent Comrade Cowen for the Cold War heist to end heists: 1-1/2 GEs per Foton, 1-3/4 GEs per Reflektor...all exchanged over seven days at 23:00h outside Lubyanka...


LOL!  But sheeez, man. The Russians aren't dumb. The exchange ratio is 250 GE's per Foton for the value of the scrap metal to be worth the labor cost of busting them up.  But in the end, fewer and fewer GE tubes is serving the public good.  I should get a Nobel peace prize or something...


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But sheeez, man. The Russians aren't dumb. The exchange ratio is 250 GE's per Foton for the value of the scrap metal to be worth the labor cost of busting them up.  But in the end, fewer and fewer GE tubes is serving the public good.  I should get a Nobel peace prize or something...


There is no labour cost really in ‘busting them up’: just plug them in a circuit, play 1812 Overture at 90dB (good Russian tune!), and watch the GE fireworks! 🧨🎆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yes.  And more than subtle.  Like way.
> 
> We all have our own opinions and preferences of course, but the TS 5998 is one of my most favorite tubes in both the DV and the Incubus. It was made to rock, and rock it does. It's not the _only_ great sounding tube obviously, but I find the majority of my listening time split between it and the Chatham graphite plate 6080.  I like the Winged C, the Mullard 6080, the Chatham 6AS7G, Chatham/Tung Sol steel plate 6080, and even the Cetron 7236 (with the exact right proper godly-aligned, approved, authenticated, and officially blessed driver tube...yes, it's persnickety as all get out but can be righteous with a 40's RCA or Ken-Rad in front.  But I think it's really hard NOT to like the 5998 even if you try. I actually prefer the TS 5998 to the venerable WE 421A, although the (lone) 421A I have tests quite a bit lower in GM than my 5998's, so that _could_ be a factor. YMMV and all the usual.


Well you just made it impossible not to get a TS 5998....search is on 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> You just made a friend in @bcowen with that statement ^^^^  🤣


Joining the GE cult under the famous GE Big Kahuna @bcowen 😀😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  It's my patriotic duty.  The Russians are simply not allowed to have better sounding tubes than us, even if they made them.


Make sure to export the GEs to them  as part of the exchange program  lol


----------



## hottyson

bcowen said:


> To my knowledge, there is no such tube as a "Fonon," other than a Russian seller or two that list them as such (either due to language differences or typos).  There are quite audible differences within the Fotons themselves though, with the 1950's production years sounding better (to my ears) than the early '60's, and the early '60's sound better than late 60's or beyond.  The year should be listed to the bottom right of the Foton diamond...if it's still legible.
> 
> Below a 1953 with ribbed plates (anodes) with the year in the yellow circle:


Perhaps someone can help me to identify what this good sounding tube that the seller calls a Fonon 6N8S actually is. 
Printed faintly on the glass is
6H8C
8609
In these photos the Tube with the pink sticker is the usual 6N8S Foton. The other is the tube that that seller calls a Fonon 6N8S.


----------



## hottyson

I was able to capture the faint lettering with a flashlight.


----------



## HTSkywalker

hottyson said:


> I was able to capture the faint lettering with a flashlight.


That's pretty forensic work you are doing there


----------



## bcowen (Apr 8, 2021)

hottyson said:


> I was able to capture the faint lettering with a flashlight.


Most likely that is a Novosibirsk factory tube.  I'm not terribly familiar with the codes on those, but the '8609' may mean 1986.  That one looks pretty much identical to the ones in this listing that show the Novosibirsk symbol:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6pcs-6N8S-Fonon-6H8C-6SN7GT-USSR-Double-Triode-Tubes-New/274679960582?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3ff4339406:g:M2UAAOSw4a9gJUts&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkY3FSd4Ad8xn3oRtkVexxrB4JZroObSDQj7Azs9KYDMPM7ppK1Kcdvc5RI0%2FufNlZLnSoYfLFG1VOCjGVByEAG2TTBKfMv4ROzxzLaUQqBjmtindMM%2BaHaDfPUeEr%2BKkzPvmvY5nGfFMag7Vl%2BId5qi2rrg8wbSKy678YFL7yE8zWYhgI8Ff2C%2BZrkR8ILQosDOi9WpOOpbkJOcBczA%2Fyd4MGXkisomXJXlbFSXqoDWWK%2F7vSgWeJVITnmDhsuofBq9rwdqYxCGDZQyVpFJ%2F2tGNg8VuU%2Fuoa%2Bn%2BV8VT7UiAapJWKC2vIFCStD0bWuPqBGQODr8YZJZWqNEbn1T7DC6ReDFmuR6OdoQTTrDwcsYeNuKQTnQgxCMZzeZtmBjqOuteohoVe6Xn3Rsf7KxfrwoQXGGfeeXuLntv5QUAXCDaCEuKARkuuykyIKRczF6t%2FVhXy87nF4KnB3IT5Ou5CEhGPnkOY0l5FfK89xhA4G0hQiVCml3MjVLQE5sVAL12Z0ADgM%2BAF51%2FHzjEJwrVx1SNu%2FzyTJgSI4kq%2BgpcAjtsdszMw%2BsbeTQJ8LrShDMQziFHA7IbwHGaVLqRqXktFQC%2F0Zo69b915hi6QKTo01sY1cVLBjqW7BPQmFo%2FwKEIunEDTkjqi6iOWgtb8B9W3VfPaTz1l1RT2Lgw28vsig5TeYzEaE2jo1ggnC1q%2BuSbAdRmfH0Tm59PvRTidupjHdk0Ivu0dUS8%2Bw7r%2BnExfrjx1MQS6oaGj9i0HtWceYRmeBRmk465ncC534T4sQEcH%2FQ%3D%3D|cksum:2746799605823b493305a4d34f8e9820a78653083626|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

And here's a short list of the most popular Russian factory symbols:

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/RUSSIAN-BRANDS/brands.htm


----------



## hottyson (Apr 8, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Most likely that is a Novosibirsk factory tube.  I'm not terribly familiar with the codes on those, but the '8609' may mean 1986.  That one looks pretty much identical to the ones in this listing that show the Novosibirsk symbol:
> 
> And here's a short list of the most popular Russian factory symbols:
> 
> http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/RUSSIAN-BRANDS/brands.htm


Wow! You found it! The symbol is not visible on the tubes I bought from that seller. Good eye! I looked at those pics when I bought them but I did not even see the pentagram symbol on those eBay pics until zooming in after you posted. Thank you so much!!!



Compared to the Foton 6H8C, this 1986 Novosibirsk 6H8C has a tiny bit more wet sound to it and a more pronounced upper mid/lower treble that is not as rough. This is the driver tube I enjoy the most and I am going to stick with it.


----------



## Galapac

Maybe that is why the seller calls the Novosibirsk tubes Fonons, _*not*_ Fotons....


----------



## Galapac

I noticed @Paladin79 hasn't posted for a few days in the thread.
After awhile you build a camaraderie with fellow Head-Fi members and enjoy the daily back and forth.
Hope all is well buddy and that you are just taking some time off from the digital domain and enjoying life and the wife's new She Shed.  
Sometimes we all need a break...I call it equilibrium like the pictured coin...a balance of the digital and analog.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I noticed @Paladin79 hasn't posted for a few days in the thread.
> After awhile you build a camaraderie with fellow Head-Fi members and enjoy the daily back and forth.
> Hope all is well buddy and that you are just taking some time off from the digital domain and enjoying life and the wife's new She Shed.
> Sometimes we all need a break...I call it equilibrium like the pictured coin...a balance of the digital and analog.


No worries, he is alive and kicking on the   6SN7 thread 😛


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> No worries, he is alive and kicking on the   6SN7 thread 😛


There is a 6SN7 thread? I know there is a 6AS7 thread but didn't know there was one for 6SN7...you have a link?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> There is a 6SN7 thread? I know there is a 6AS7 thread but didn't know there was one for 6SN7...you have a link?


There you go
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...m_medium=email&utm_source=thread_forum_macros


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> There you go
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...m_medium=email&utm_source=thread_forum_macros


Thank you sir!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Thank you sir!


Most welcome 😀😀


----------



## qingcai

anybody tried this caps?


----------



## HTSkywalker

qingcai said:


> anybody tried this caps?


Looks like grenades 😂😂😂


----------



## qingcai

it is


----------



## Galapac

qingcai said:


> qingcai said:
> 
> 
> > anybody tried this caps?


I may have actually seen those used in Tesla coils, not amps.


----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


> anybody tried this caps?


Jalapeño peppers?...


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I noticed @Paladin79 hasn't posted for a few days in the thread.
> After awhile you build a camaraderie with fellow Head-Fi members and enjoy the daily back and forth.
> Hope all is well buddy and that you are just taking some time off from the digital domain and enjoying life and the wife's new She Shed.
> Sometimes we all need a break...I call it equilibrium like the pictured coin...a balance of the digital and analog.


Let’s not overlook the balance of the quiet and the music...


----------



## Deceneu808 (Apr 10, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> The two 'pipes' are the ground bar - you can attach ground wires to pretty much anywhere on those.
> The two wires going from the socket are the outputs - the one with yellow is left, the one with red is right. Within each one are two wires, should be one white and one black; white is the signal, black is the ground.
> 
> Here's what you basically want:
> ...


I did it and it works. Sort of LMAO. It doesn't sweep the volume, it's just maxed out. At Min, 7 o clock maxed out and nothing happens if I sweep the volume to max except for the last 20% or so, it turns the left channel to 0. Broken pot or broken skills ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I did it and it works. Sort of LMAO. It doesn't sweep the volume, it's just maxed out. At Min, 7 o clock maxed out and nothing happens if I sweep the volume to max except for the last 20% or so, it turns the left channel to 0. Broken pot or broken skills ?


Again with the ALPS pot ??? 😳😳


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Again with the ALPS pot ??? 😳😳


Yeees yes. I still wasn't satisfied with the stock one. I don't know... Elise can't come soon enough...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeees yes. I still wasn't satisfied with the stock one. I don't know... Elise can't come soon enough...


Did you order the Feliks Audio Elise ??? 😍😍


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Did you order the Feliks Audio Elise ??? 😍😍


Yeah. They offered to send me the new upcoming 2021 model as well in the same price just because I ordered a month ago. Still about 6 weeks to go. They should be announcing the changes this month. Internal upgrades and a facelift over the current model. Can't wait. I should be one of the first ones to get it


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> Yeah. They offered to send me the new upcoming 2021 model as well in the same price just because I ordered a month ago. Still about 6 weeks to go. They should be announcing the changes this month. Internal upgrades and a facelift over the current model. Can't wait. I should be one of the first ones to get it


Good for you, Feliks produces very good amps. How much did you pay for it ?
Was eyeing the new MKII myself.
IMO with the Elise on its way, don’t waste more money on the DV, it’s ok in stock form and the tubes are interchangeable with the Feliks


----------



## Louisiana

Today, a 6AS7G Telefunken arrived, and a Feliks Audio Echo MK II...


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Good for you, Feliks produces very good amps. How much did you pay for it ?
> Was eyeing the new MKII myself.
> IMO with the Elise on its way, don’t waste more money on the DV, it’s ok in stock form and the tubes are not interchangeable with the Feliks


I paid 1199 EUR without tubes. As I have plenty around in pairs... And the tube are interchangeable. 6as7 power and 6sn7 driver. Two of each


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Today, a 6AS7G Telefunken arrived, and a Feliks Audio Echo MK II...


First impressions compared to the DV ??


----------



## Louisiana

HTSkywalker said:


> First impressions compared to the DV ??


DV is modded, as you can see here in the Thread, its the DV you can find on Page 499.
For me, the DV is exactly what I want a tube amp to be.

The Echo sounds more like an SS amp, but he have still the Stock tubes and I haven't had time to really hear it today - but SQ and build quality is really on a high level!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> DV is modded, as you can see here in the Thread, its the DV you can find on Page 499.
> For me, the DV is exactly what I want a tube amp to be.
> 
> The Echo sounds more like an SS amp, but he have still the Stock tubes and I haven't had time to really hear it today - but SQ and build quality is really on a high level!


My Violectric is doing a good SS amp job over here, while the CTH is giving a tubey touch to the Ananda and the DV is doing the distorted tube job till am ready for an Incubus 🤪


----------



## darkfin

i am new dark voice ownert,too lazy to read over 600 pages.  Is there some tube pair,  what makes more tubines, warmt and wider sounds .


----------



## HTSkywalker

darkfin said:


> i am new dark voice ownert,too lazy to read over 600 pages.  Is there some tube pair,  what makes more tubines, warmt and wider sounds .


Anything replacing the stock tubes is an upgrade. You can upgrade the Power Amp tube with 6AS7G, 6080 or 5988 depending on your budget, brands are RCA, Sylvania, Svetlana and Tung Sol. Pre-amp tube 6sN7 would do, same brands as above (stir clear from GE). Sylvania are great, RCA dark Glass, T Plates etc.


----------



## Galapac

darkfin said:


> i am new dark voice ownert,too lazy to read over 600 pages.  Is there some tube pair,  what makes more tubines, warmt and wider sounds .


So you want other members to do your research for you? There is a search function above each thread, no need to read 600 pages. There is no need to repeat what has already been written.


----------



## darkfin

i think, they dont need to research anything. just only if someone want to tell his own experience what he make warmsounding and etc..  and i am not new in tube world.  every tube sound  differend another amp. just try to find good combination 

 but okay. i remove my account. because allways is someone idiot talkin,, use google .  make whole foorum pointless.


----------



## Galapac

darkfin said:


> i think, they dont need to research anything. just only if someone want to tell his own experience what he make warmsounding and etc..  and i am not new in tube world.  every tube sound  differend another amp. just try to find good combination
> 
> but okay. i remove my account. because allways is someone idiot talkin,, use google .  make whole foorum pointless.


So you are new to the forum and you insult members who give advice? Good luck.
I didn't say you were lazy...you did and you proved your point.


----------



## qingcai (Apr 11, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I may have actually seen those used in Tesla coils, not amps.


in the little dot mk viii thread, they recommend this caps, I am buying some from ebay.
this thread. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lit...s-all-verified-mods-are-on-first-page.782183/


----------



## bcowen (Apr 11, 2021)

darkfin said:


> i think, they dont need to research anything. just only if someone want to tell his own experience what he make warmsounding and etc..  and i am not new in tube world.  every tube sound  differend another amp. just try to find good combination
> 
> but okay. i remove my account. because allways is someone idiot talkin,, use google .  make whole foorum pointless.


What's pointless is someone too lazy to read through the impressions and experiences already posted by members where the question has been answered many times over.  Bye.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> What's pointless is someone too lazy to read through the impressions and experiences already posted by members where the question has been answered many times over.  Bye.


The adage of ‘anything worth doing is worth doing well’ is really true when reading HF threads is involved. It takes time: it WILL save time & money; it WILL mitigate/prevent sonic ear-ache/heart-ache; it WILL educate and entertain; it MAY create new friendships. @darkfin, it is your choice to skip or to research HF threads. To dismiss with petulance the advice and experience of HFiers is unfortunate at best and reflects poorly on you.


----------



## HTSkywalker

qingcai said:


> in the little dot mk viii thread, they recommend this caps, I am buying some from ebay.
> this thread.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lit...s-all-verified-mods-are-on-first-page.782183/


What is good for LD may not be good for the DV, if you search this thread you will find few caps used on the DV.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I may have actually seen those used in Tesla coils, not amps.


Probably handmaid by Nik himself given the look 😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The adage of ‘anything worth doing is worth doing well’ is really true when reading HF threads is involved. It takes time: it WILL save time & money; it WILL mitigate/prevent sonic ear-ache/heart-ache; it WILL educate and entertain; it MAY create new friendships. @darkfin, it is your choice to skip or to research HF threads. To dismiss with petulance the advice and experience of HFiers is unfortunate at best and reflects poorly on you.


Guys come on @bcowen @Galapac @jonathan c you crucified the poor Fin guy ☠☠☠. By now he probably sold the DV and will never set foot again in Head-fi let alone the American continent 😁😁😁 
You could have as well easily recommended GE tubes across the board and he would have reacted all the same lol


----------



## jonathan c

P


HTSkywalker said:


> Guys come on @bcowen @Galapac @jonathan c you crucified the poor Fin guy ☠☠☠. By now he probably sold the DV and will never set foot again in Head-fi let alone the American continent 😁😁😁
> You could have as well easily recommended GE tubes across the board and he would have reacted all the same lol


I could have sent him straight to Bangybang and menifee...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> P
> 
> I could have sent him straight to Bangybang and menifee...


ROFL!!


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> By now he probably sold the DV and will never set foot again in Head-fi....



Good. 

If he's too lazy to read, why bother responding?  He won't read it.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  I was thinking about buying Darkfin's DV so I could legitimately participate in this thread, but you folks are just too mean.  I think I'll buy an amp with a forum where folks are more friendly and willing to put forth the effort that I am not.   


Tip to Noobs:  NEVER start your first post in a thread asking for help with something akin to 'I am new and too lazy...' -- even if you really are!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Good.
> 
> If he's too lazy to read, why bother responding?  He won't read it.


Good point 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  I was thinking about buying Darkfin's DV so I could legitimately participate in this thread, but you folks are just too mean.  I think I'll buy an amp with a forum where folks are more friendly and willing to put forth the effort that I am not.
> 
> 
> Tip to Noobs:  NEVER start your first post in a thread asking for help with something akin to 'I am new and too lazy...' -- even if you really are!!


He should have got an SS amp lol 😁😁 better. A German Violectric would do, he'll only need to remove the dust every now and then and probably pass it to his grandchildren too. 
We should put your Noobs statement as a disclaimer upon signing in to a new Head-Fi account along with Darkfin Skull next to it ☠☠☠


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 12, 2021)

Speaking of removing dust.  I'll cite that as an example wrong/right way to post for assistance:

*WRONG:*  I'm too lazy to search and read, so do you guys have any tips on the best way to remove dust from an amp?

*RIGHT:*  Hello.  New here and I've done some reading* and searched the thread*.  I've found a lot of suggestions and was thinking of using a microfiber cloth, but not really sure if I should use something else or combine that with a cleaner.  What do you folks suggest.?  Thanks in advance!!

* Didn't really read or search, but who would know.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> He should have got an SS amp lol 😁😁 better. A German Violectric would do, he'll only need to remove the dust every now and then and probably pass it to his grandchildren too.
> We should put your Noobs statement as a disclaimer upon signing in to a new Head-Fi account along with Darkfin Skull next to it ☠☠☠


Hey, show Violectric some respect! You never know when you may have to use it. Besides, the V280 is _my_ favourite ss h/p/a...Do you want the Lake People chasing you with pitchforks, branding irons, etc? 😝


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Speaking of removing dust.  I'll site that as an example wrong/right way to post for assistance:
> 
> *WRONG:*  I'm too lazy to search and read, so do you guys have any tips on the best way to remove dust from an amp?
> 
> ...


Now that's wayyy too mean 😆😆
So what you are proposing that no matter who will ask for help in no matter how he's doing it, he should be shunned as we are fully aware of every twisted way 😂😂😂


----------



## glt

Ripper2860 said:


> Speaking of removing dust.  I'll site that as an example wrong/right way to post for assistance:
> 
> *WRONG:*  I'm too lazy to search and read, so do you guys have any tips on the best way to remove dust from an amp?
> 
> ...


This is real wisdom...

And thanks for all the users that spend time and money reviewing tubes and modding the Amp


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 12, 2021)

..


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Hey, show Violectric some respect! You never know when you may have to use it. Besides, the V280 is _my_ favourite ss h/p/a...Do you want the Lake People chasing you with pitchforks, branding irons, etc? 😝


Well in fact I also love my Violectric too but the moment I got the CTH and the DV, my Violectric listening time decreased.
In fact SS amps do have their limitations hobby wise as no further investment is needed as in tube's rolling lol 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

glt said:


> This is real wisdom...
> 
> And thanks for all the users that spend time and money reviewing tubes and modding the Amp


Ok That was smart and innovative, we will spare you 😁😁😁


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Speaking of removing dust.  I'll site that as an example wrong/right way to post for assistance:
> 
> *WRONG:*  I'm too lazy to search and read, so do you guys have any tips on the best way to remove dust from an amp?
> 
> ...


I think that a Doctorate of Sloth from HeadFi Tech should be conferred upon R2860...


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Ok That was smart and innovative, we will spare you 😁😁😁


For now...😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I think that a Doctorate of Sloth from HeadFi Tech should be conferred upon R2860...


Or probably pursuing a political path lol


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Well in fact I also love my Violectric too but the moment I got the CTH and the DV, my Violectric listening time decreased.
> In fact SS amps do have their limitations hobby wise as no further investment is needed as in tube's rolling lol 😁😁😁


Did the Violectric listening time decrease because of an increase in time trying to get rid of DV hum 🤬 and other DV ailments 🤕🤒😷?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Did the Violectric listening time decrease because of an increase in time trying to get rid of DV hum 🤬 and other DV ailments 🤕🤒😷?


Trying to get rid of the hum by changing tubes, ordering some more and searching for a better Tube amp  but the bright side is joining the Tube rolling cult on Head-Fi 😎


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Trying to get rid of the hum by changing tubes, ordering some more and searching for a better Tube amp  but the bright side is joining the Tube rolling *CULT* on Head-Fi 😎


...and the dark side is the periodic altar sacrifice by sledgehammer of GE tubes to appease the tube gods....sign of the ‘pentode-gram’....


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> Speaking of removing dust.  I'll cite that as an example wrong/right way to post for assistance:
> 
> *WRONG:*  I'm too lazy to search and read, so do you guys have any tips on the best way to remove dust from an amp?
> 
> ...


Good post, but I'm too lazy. Can somebody "like" it for me


----------



## Galapac

All the kidding aside...I always suggest to a new forum members to use the search thread in the forums as that is what I did once I googled a topic and it came up with a Head-Fi thread. Well the thread was over 300 pages but I read most of it and I learned so much from others experiences good and bad and it was a way for me to pass the time while I was waiting for my new amp. 
So when someone is just looking for the quick answer but doesn’t even want to use the search...pet peeve, but in this instance I wonder if something got lost in translation as I don’t want people to quit the forum either. 

Nah...BS meter was ringing off the wall this time. 😂


----------



## Slade01 (Apr 12, 2021)

Galapac said:


> All the kidding aside...I always suggest to a new forum members to use the search thread in the forums as that is what I did once I googled a topic and it came up with a Head-Fi thread. Well the thread was over 300 pages but I read most of it and I learned so much from others experiences good and bad and it was a way for me to pass the time while I was waiting for my new amp.
> So when someone is just looking for the quick answer but doesn’t even want to use the search...pet peeve, but in this instance I wonder if something got lost in translation as I don’t want people to quit the forum either.
> 
> Nah...BS meter was ringing off the wall this time. 😂



To add to @Ripper2860 and your Masterclass - I always implore new members looking for advice to give us more context on what they are aiming for, what their budgets are, what music they like.  I wish aside from them actually at least searching through the thread, they start off even in the 6SN7 identification thread first, and get a feel for the brands and impressions there - even solely if they  just go through post #1, this will get new users through the door and it would make a more sensible jump off point to ask about specific tubes within the respective amp's threads.

Either that or throw up the generic advice in this case for new users:  if you want a better warmer sound for the Darkvoice - simply change out and upgrade the stock tubes...to any NOS type tubes.  Literally and you will 99% of the time, get a better, and warmer sound if they stick to the original variant types 6SN7/6AS7.   It becomes a matter of taste beyond that.  It's a pure tube amp.  It will be inherently warmer - literally and musically.

TLDR: Don't go to a baskin robbins 31 flavors ice cream shop with 25 different toppings and ask them you are looking for something sweet - whats the best ice cream/topping combo you got, without expecting to get crazy what  kind of reactions from the shop employees. LOL.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> All the kidding aside...I always suggest to a new forum members to use the search thread in the forums as that is what I did once I googled a topic and it came up with a Head-Fi thread. Well the thread was over 300 pages but I read most of it and I learned so much from others experiences good and bad and it was a way for me to pass the time while I was waiting for my new amp.
> So when someone is just looking for the quick answer but doesn’t even want to use the search...pet peeve, but in this instance I wonder if something got lost in translation as I don’t want people to quit the forum either.
> 
> Nah...BS meter was ringing off the wall this time. 😂


True as you don't get to college without covering the school materials first, In fact reading a product history in a forum since its launch and revisions along with re-current and common problems (DV related lol) would give a much broader understanding of the product, its short comings and advantages as well as users experience with different tubes which normally differentiate between listeners (GE tubes common opinions aside)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> To add to @Ripper2860 and your Masterclass - I always implore new members looking for advice to give us more context on what they are aiming for, what their budgets are, what music they like.  I wish aside from them actually at least searching through the thread, *they start off even in the 6SN7 identification thread firs*t, and get a feel for the brands and impressions there - even solely if they  just go through post #1, this will get new users through the door and it would make a more sensible jump off point to ask about specific tubes within the respective amp's threads.
> 
> Either that or throw up the generic advice in this case for new users:  if you want a better warmer sound for the Darkvoice - simply change out and upgrade the stock tubes...to any NOS type tubes.  Literally and you will 99% of the time, get a better, and warmer sound if they stick to the original variant types 6SN7/6AS7.   It becomes a matter of taste beyond that.  It's a pure tube amp.  It will be inherently warmer - literally and musically.
> 
> TLDR: Don't go to a baskin robbins 31 flavors ice cream shop with 25 different toppings and ask them you are looking for something sweet - whats the best ice cream/topping combo you got, without expecting to get crazy what  kind of reactions from the shop employees. LOL.


Tubes 101 🤣🤣


----------



## MickBenjamins

I need help from the experts... The Tung Sol 5998 that I ordered from ebay arrived, but there are tiny chips of glass inside

See 3 images here: https://imgur.com/a/SHf6LCc

Is this GAME OVER, or is it still usable?


----------



## bcowen (Apr 13, 2021)

MickBenjamins said:


> I need help from the experts... The Tung Sol 5998 that I ordered from ebay arrived, but there are tiny chips of glass inside
> 
> See 3 images here: https://imgur.com/a/SHf6LCc
> 
> Is this GAME OVER, or is it still usable?


It's not game over....but could be a much shorter game.  The tube looks to be good at this point as the getter flashing (silver film at the top) is still good.  If those chips had resulted in a vacuum leak, the flashing wouldn't be silver, it would be a powdery white (or missing altogether).  Loose glass chips in a tube are not all that uncommon and can simply result from an extraneous piece that broke off along the way and won't cause any issues (a glass "dingleberry," so to speak ).  However, those are some pretty big chips from what I can see in the pictures, and a good bit bigger than what I've normally seen that could be referred to as 'extraneous'.  Concern would be that those have broken off from around one or more places where the element leads pass through the glass, and repeated heated/cooling of the tube could result in a vacuum leak that wouldn't otherwise occur.  Assuming you paid a decent chunk of money for that tube and if it's returnable, that's what I'd do.  Or, closely inspect as best you can where the glass is formed around the element leads (at the tube base) and see if you notice any piece that is obviously broken off around one or more of those leads.  It's possible those chunks are truly just extraneous, and if so then you should be OK.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> It's not game over....but could be a much shorter game.  The tube looks to be good at this point as the getter flashing (silver film at the top) is still good.  If those chips had resulted in a vacuum leak, the flashing wouldn't be silver, it would be a powdery white (or missing altogether).  Loose glass chips in a tube are not all that uncommon and can simply result from an extraneous piece that broke off along the way and won't cause any issues (a glass "dingleberry," so to speak ).  However, those are some pretty big chips from what I can see in the pictures, and a good bit bigger than what I've normally seen that could be referred to as 'extraneous'.  Concern would be that those have broken off from around one or more places where the element leads pass through the glass, and repeated heated/cooling of the tube could result in a vacuum leak that wouldn't otherwise occur.  Assuming you paid a decent chunk of money for that tube and if it's returnable, that's what I'd do.  Or, closely inspect as best you can where the glass is formed around the element leads (at the tube base) and see if you notice any piece that is obviously broken off around one or more of those leads.  It's possible those chunks are truly just extraneous, and if so then you should be OK.


What Bill stated plus it should have been mentioned that there was loose glass, if it wasn't I would return as the seller may not be reputable.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> What Bill stated plus it should have been mentioned that there was loose glass, if it wasn't I would return as the seller may not be reputable.


We’re there any photographs prior to the purchase by @MickBenjamins which indicated the presence of loose glass?


----------



## MickBenjamins

Awesome info, thank you @bcowen !

These are the images that were available to me before buying: https://imgur.com/a/Meejm6f

I've got it from a seller in Italy, and their eBay ad said "NEW , NO LOOSE INSIDE"...

And yes, I did pay a good chunk of money for this. The seller doesn't accept returns, but as per eBays buyer protection I requested one anyway. Lets see what the seller says


----------



## bcowen

MickBenjamins said:


> Awesome info, thank you @bcowen !
> 
> These are the images that were available to me before buying: https://imgur.com/a/Meejm6f
> 
> ...


So then either he wasn't being truthful initially, or those pieces came loose in shipment (which is possible, but if they were packed with any care is rather improbable).


----------



## MickBenjamins

The box itself was wrapped in some bubble wrap, and placed in a box with crumbled up newspaper, so I doubt it came loose during transport. Lets see what the seller says


----------



## jonathan c

MickBenjamins said:


> Awesome info, thank you @bcowen !
> 
> These are the images that were available to me before buying: https://imgur.com/a/Meejm6f
> 
> ...


The images, with reflections, do not give that great a look at the inside of the 5998. As @bcowen said, it is unlikely that the chips would form/loosen in shipment. More / complete breakage would be more likely. It seems odd that the EBay ad would specify no loose (glass) inside: perhaps because there was? I have never encountered the loose glass disclaimer in purchasing tubes. Q: being located in Italy, was the seller ‘wege_high_tubes’? (known for exorbitant prices on less than gilt-edge items).


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 13, 2021)

MickBenjamins said:


> I need help from the experts... The Tung Sol 5998 that I ordered from ebay arrived, but there are tiny chips of glass inside
> 
> See 3 images here: https://imgur.com/a/SHf6LCc
> 
> Is this GAME OVER, or is it still usable?


If you paid an arm and a leg for it, try to return it and most probably they will exchange it for you IMHO, if the price was a steal then most probably the seller knew about it. No one normally puts "no lose glass" kinda of fishy


----------



## HTSkywalker

MickBenjamins said:


> Awesome info, thank you @bcowen !
> 
> These are the images that were available to me before buying: https://imgur.com/a/Meejm6f
> 
> ...


Exactly why I don't like to buy from eBay although you may get lucky most of the time


----------



## MickBenjamins

jonathan c said:


> The images, with reflections, do not give that great a look at the inside of the 5998. As @bcowen said, it is unlikely that the chips would form/loosen in shipment. More / complete breakage would be more likely. It seems odd that the EBay ad would specify no loose (glass) inside: perhaps because there was? I have never encountered the loose glass disclaimer in purchasing tubes. Q: being located in Italy, was the seller ‘wege_high_tubes’? (known for exorbitant prices on less than gilt-edge items).


This was the seller: https://www.ebay.de/usr/satellit2400


----------



## Mr Trev

MickBenjamins said:


> Awesome info, thank you @bcowen !
> 
> These are the images that were available to me before buying: https://imgur.com/a/Meejm6f
> 
> ...


Like the rest of the guys, this is the first I've heard of any seller specifically mentioning "no loose inside". Hopefully eBay will have your back on this one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

MickBenjamins said:


> This was the seller: https://www.ebay.de/usr/satellit2400


Seller Profile looks sound and there for a while, not a hit and run seller. Try to reach out to him, he may honor the purchase.


----------



## jonathan c

MickBenjamins said:


> This was the seller: https://www.ebay.de/usr/satellit2400


The seller appears legitimate....@HTSkywalker is on target...


----------



## Mr Trev

General question then… Is debris on the inside of tubes a common(ish) thing? Any brands more prone to it? - just trying to brain out the seller's description


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> General question then… Is debris on the inside of tubes a common(ish) thing? Any brands more prone to it? - just trying to brain out the seller's description


Common?  No, not in my experience.  But it does happen.  I probably have at least a couple tubes in the stash with a small glass piece floating around inside.  The tubes test and work fine.  There are a number of videos floating around that show the tube manufacturing process, and it would be easy enough for a small piece of glass to be left hanging (by a thread) when it is melted around the element leads.  I believe in most cases this is what these loose pieces are, and not something critical to the seal area(s) that has necessarily broken, although that's a possibility too and one that would be a cause for concern.  As glass is an insulator, there's no danger of it becoming lodged somewhere and creating a short, so as long as it hasn't broken away from an area that would compromise the glass/metal seal, it's only an oddity rather than a "problem."


----------



## MickBenjamins

The seller accepted a return, and I just went to the post office to send it back.

The seller did not reply to my message, but just accepted the return, so it seems he was aware of the issue... sketchy!


----------



## HTSkywalker

MickBenjamins said:


> The seller accepted a return, and I just went to the post office to send it back.
> 
> The seller did not reply to my message, but just accepted the return, so it seems he was aware of the issue... sketchy!


Good for you, from his profile I thought he would honor it. 👍


----------



## jonathan c

MickBenjamins said:


> The seller accepted a return, and I just went to the post office to send it back.
> 
> The seller did not reply to my message, but just accepted the return, so it seems he was aware of the issue... sketchy!


👍: Seller accepts return; 👎: seller presentation of tube is deceptive.


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> 👍: Seller accepts return; 👎: seller presentation of tube is deceptive.


He kind of has to accept the return...the ugly truth for a seller on eBay is that they have to accept ALL returns no mater what, no exceptions. The buyer has all the power on eBay. eBay will either take it our of your PayPal account, or the new way will charge you back on your preferred payment method as they are trying to do away with PayPal.
I've stopped selling on the bay for this reason, because the good sellers get screwed with in my experience:

Drunk buyers with remorse
bait and switchers ( buyers who return your item to find that it wasn't yours but a damaged version of yours)
Tire kickers
Buyers who want you to lower your offer so they don't have to eat the tax (it's not my fault you live in a state with high tax!)
Non-paying buyers who are not penaliuzed


----------



## Mr Trev

Galapac said:


> He kind of has to accept the return...the ugly truth for a seller on eBay is that they have to accept ALL returns no mater what, no exceptions. The buyer has all the power on eBay. eBay will either take it our of your PayPal account, or the new way will charge you back on your preferred payment method as they are trying to do away with PayPal.
> I've stopped selling on the bay for this reason, because the good sellers get screwed with in my experience:
> 
> Drunk buyers with remorse
> ...


I've even gotten a nice notice in the package of something I bought from an eBay seller asking to please consider buying directly from their own website in the future, because eBay will put the screws to sellers for any little reason.


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> I picked up one of these to try out...I got the one from 1949.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-6N8M-...5&toolid=10001&customid=kn1sdcsg3l01zlp100004



I ended up getting its brother (1948).  I didn't realize it was the same listing until i reclicked your link and it said i bought the item.


----------



## Galapac

Slade01 said:


> I ended up getting its brother (1948).  I didn't realize it was the same listing until i reclicked your link and it said i bought the item.


Cool! Going to good homes in the U.S. 
Expect a long wait mine just cleared customs after a week


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 15, 2021)

Galapac said:


> He kind of has to accept the return...the ugly truth for a seller on eBay is that they have to accept ALL returns no mater what, no exceptions. The buyer has all the power on eBay. eBay will either take it our of your PayPal account, or the new way will charge you back on your preferred payment method as they are trying to do away with PayPal.
> I've stopped selling on the bay for this reason, because the good sellers get screwed with in my experience:
> 
> Drunk buyers with remorse
> ...


I normally stick with Amazon or known companies I know (Lowtechelec, tube depot etc). They maybe pricier than eBay but as am living abroad and shipping internationally, I can’t afford returns or screwups.
Many times with defective items, honorable sellers would send me a replacement without even returning the defective items. Only a proof of defect.
Focal did that by sending me a $550 pair of drivers honoring the 5 years Elear extended warranty.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Svetlana 6080 in the back coupled with the RCA Dark Knight 💪(courtesy of @Paladin79) pre-amping the Mcintosch.
A deadly combination straight out to the Golden Ears Tritons.
Single Malt night, cheers 🍻 guys


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Svetlana 6080 in the back coupled with the RCA Dark Knight 💪(courtesy of @Paladin79) pre-amping the Mcintosch.
> A deadly combination straight out to the Golden Ears Tritons.
> Single Malt night, cheers 🍻 guys


Still early here and much work to be done. I am nearly finished with my wife's curly maple table, then on to a spalted maple table and a small music system. I may knock those out this weekend.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Still early here and much work to be done. I am nearly finished with my wife's curly maple table, then on to a spalted maple table and a small music system. I may knock those out this weekend.


I thought the Tiger Maple Incubus chassis with dovetailed corners was after the curly maple table?  You should probably start writing this stuff down so you don't lose track.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Still early here and much work to be done. I am nearly finished with my wife's curly maple table, then on to a spalted maple table and a small music system. I may knock those out this weekend.


Looking forward to see the music system especially the enclosure and finishing, any progress ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I thought the Tiger Maple Incubus chassis with dovetailed corners was after the curly maple table?  You should probably start writing this stuff down so you don't lose track.


I second that 😁


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 15, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I thought the Tiger Maple Incubus chassis with dovetailed corners was after the curly maple table?  You should probably start writing this stuff down so you don't lose track.


Leave me alone, I am a Gemini. We are famous for thinking up ideas, getting everyone involved and then going off in another direction entirely.

This arrived today so my plans changed lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Still early here and much work to be done. I am nearly finished with my wife's curly maple table, then on to a spalted maple table and a small music system. I may knock those out this weekend.


Besides weekends are reserved for drinking, grilling, music and flying ✈️ 😊😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone, I am a Gemini. We are famous for thinking up ideas, getting everyone involved and then going off in another direction entirely.
> 
> This arrived today so my plans changed lol.


I should change to Gemini in this case 😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone, I am a Gemini. We are famous for thinking up ideas, getting everyone involved and then going off in another direction entirely.


LOL!  Me too.

Uh-oh.

So then enough tube talk, let's discuss AC outlets.  Do you guys prefer Furutech or Oyaide?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 15, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Me too.
> 
> Uh-oh.
> 
> So then enough tube talk, let's discuss AC outlets.  Do you guys prefer Furutech or Oyaide?


I believe Oyaide have the upper hand, but not much exposure to the British cables.
I like Sommer cables


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone, I am a Gemini. We are famous for thinking up ideas, getting everyone involved and then going off in another direction entirely.
> 
> This arrived today so my plans changed lol.


Does not look like oak 🧐🧐


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Does not look like oak 🧐🧐


I have not mentioned oak lol, this is spalted maple. I am mostly building with various forms of maple right now except I was given some poplar that could work perfectly for the tiny sound system I am making.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have not mentioned oak lol, this is spalted maple. I am mostly building with various forms of maple right now except I was given some poplar that could work perfectly for the tiny sound system I am making.


Hopefully not a fresh cut so you can start working on it


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Hopefully not a fresh cut so you can start working on it


Kiln dried to 8% moisture level give or take.😺

Anyway getting back to tubes, Sam, Frank, and me may well have all tried GE  5998’s by mid to late next week. I will be A/Bing in a blind listen. Frank has two Incubus amps so he might do something  similar.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe Oyaide have the upper hand, but not much exposure to the British cables.
> I like Sommer cables


I was talking AC (power) outlets, not cables.  Don't want to exclude @Paladin79 who would be too professional to comment on cables due to his industry affiliation.  I'm expecting very large rolled eyes from him on the outlet subject any time now though....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was talking AC (power) outlets, not cables.  Don't want to exclude @Paladin79 who would be too professional to comment on cables due to his industry affiliation.  I'm expecting very large rolled eyes from him on the outlet subject any time now though....


Oh they are essential....not. Want to bet you can tell the difference between a Furutech and something I buy off of Amazon? Most likely most are made at some factory in China anyway lol.

Hush I have a zoom meeting coming up and the group is like 90% women and very bright and outgoing. One of my book groups, we may meet live at my place again soon. I was in five such groups but trimmed it down to three.

later lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh they are essential....not. Want to bet you can tell the difference between a Furutech and something I buy off of Amazon? Most likely most are made at some factory in China anyway lol.
> 
> Hush I have a zoom meeting coming up and the group is like 90% women and very bright and outgoing. One of my book groups, we may meet live at my place again soon. I was in five such groups but trimmed it down to three.
> 
> later lol


Rolled eyes...right on time.  LOL!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I normally stick with Amazon or known companies I know (Lowtechelec, tube depot etc). They maybe pricier than eBay but as am living abroad and shipping internationally, I can’t afford returns or screwups.
> Many times with defective items, honorable sellers would send me a replacement without even returning the defective items. Only a proof of defect.
> Focal did that by sending me a $550 pair of drivers honoring the 5 years Elear extended warranty.


In the same spirit, I recommend Tubes NOS Unlimited (in US), Upscale Audio (in US), Langrex (in UK), Audio Tubes Shoppe (in India). A little pricey but never a problem.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I was talking AC (power) outlets, not cables.  Don't want to exclude @Paladin79 who would be too professional to comment on cables due to his industry affiliation.  I'm expecting very large rolled eyes from him on the outlet subject any time now though....


Outlet? You mean the holes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> In the same spirit, I recommend Tubes NOS Unlimited (in US), Upscale Audio (in US), Langrex (in UK), Audio Tubes Shoppe (in India). A little pricey but never a problem.


Thanks for the recommendation, having a positive experience with a company and sharing it is very helpful same as the Etsy and Lowtechelec recommendation here I got from the guys


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Kiln dried to 8% moisture level give or take.😺
> 
> Anyway getting back to tubes, Sam, Frank, and me may well have all tried GE  5998’s by mid to late next week. I will be A/Bing in a blind listen. Frank has two Incubus amps so he might do something  similar.


All ears


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone, I am a Gemini. We are famous for thinking up ideas, getting everyone involved and then going off in another direction entirely...._(my parallel universe Gemini twin wraps up what I initiate...)_


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Me too.
> 
> Uh-oh.
> 
> So then enough tube talk, let's discuss AC outlets.  Do you guys prefer Furutech or Oyaide?


For sound 🎶🎼 or touch ☝️😡🤬 ?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Outlet? You mean the holes.


Well, I was speaking more in electrical terms than biological ones.  But depends on location too I guess.  Either way, cleaning them on a regular basis is important:


----------



## Paladin79

Finnegan is helping assemble the legs for a curly maple table, I do get lots of help.😺


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Outlet? You mean the holes.


Yes, the index finger-sized ones.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping assemble the legs for a curly maple table, I do get lots of help.😺


Don't tell me you did the cutting, welding and painting of those legs 🙄🙄 even with Finnegan help 😍😍😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping assemble the legs for a curly maple table, I do get lots of help.😺


Finnegan meet Tommy


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 16, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Don't tell me you did the cutting, welding and painting of those legs 🙄🙄 even with Finnegan help 😍😍😜😜


Na I do not have that kind of time, but I will make wooden table legs for another table if all goes well. I hope Cowen is not taking notes, I may change my mind.   

I should get my GE 5998 today so I will start letting it burn in later.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Na I do not have that kind of time, but I will make wooden table legs for another table if all goes well. I hope Cowen is not taking notes, I may change my mind.
> 
> I should get my GE 5998 today so I will start letting it burn in later.


Burn it will, Let us know your first impressions.


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> Yes, the index finger-sized ones.


My kid was playing with one of the outlets in my house recently. Now she’s grounded.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Burn it will, Let us know your first impressions.


Nope lol, I am waiting to discuss things with the rest of the triumvirate.😽


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should get my GE 5998 today so I will start letting it burn in later.



So now we have to wait _another_ 100 hours to know what it sounds like?  Criminy.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping assemble the legs for a curly maple table, I do get lots of help.😺


Finnegan has obviously spotted the new toy sitting on top.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 16, 2021)

bcowen said:


> So now we have to wait _another_ 100 hours to know what it sounds like?  Criminy.


You will wait much longer, Frank does not have his and this is a team effort. Lot’s of ins and outs and what have you’s, be patient while we consider pooling our money to buy all we can find.😁. Or not

Mine just arrived, it works, it is not a tall tube. How's that for information.?  Oh yeah it is mostly black and white with a little grey thrown in.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> You will wait much longer, Frank does not have his and this is a team effort. Lot’s of ins and outs and what have you’s, be patient while we consider pooling our money to buy all we can find.😁. Or not
> 
> Mine just arrived, it works, it is not a tall tube. How's that for information.?  Oh yeah it is mostly black and white with a little grey thrown in.


I know for a fact that he only has 14 tubes left of this type. Better act fast.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I know for a fact that he only has 14 tubes left of this type. Better act fast.


Dang, so few!!!!   I now have the tube paired with a very nice Melz 1578 from 1958, I will check it over the next ten hours or so then A/B with a Tung Sol this weekend.


----------



## SHIMACM

I already had this 5998a GE, it is worse than the RCA 6as7g. I sold it quickly.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I already had this 5998a GE, it is worse than the RCA 6as7g. I sold it quickly.


Other opinions are soon to follow, you do not like the RCA????


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Mine just arrived, it works, it is not a tall tube. How's that for information.?  Oh yeah it is mostly black and white with a little grey thrown in.



That's really helpful.  Narrows the possibilities from 732 million to 730 million.  So you've saved me the expense of 2 million (more) tubes.  Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's really helpful.  Narrows the possibilities from 732 million to 730 million.  So you've saved me the expense of 2 million (more) tubes.  Thanks!


Be patient, soon four of us will be checking the tube in Incubus amps so it maybe a Triumvirate plus one. A Quadumvirate.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I already had this 5998a GE, it is worse than the RCA 6as7g. I sold it quickly.


What amp were you using with the tubes, a DV?  What driver tube?

I am using an amp I designed with the 5998 being the baseline, the driver tube is to die for, and I am listening with Focal Utopias. Next to it I have an identical amp with a Tung Sol 5998 that I can compare.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Be patient, soon four of us will be checking the tube in Incubus amps so it maybe a Triumvirate plus one. A Quadumvirate.


What?  4?  So who's the 4th sucker person?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What?  4?  So who's the 4th sucker person?


He lives in Texas I do believe😺


----------



## Ripper2860

Geez.  What a dumbass!!


----------



## Galapac

I know of a 5th dumba$$


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  What a dumbass!!


it is probably the bar b cue, vinegar poisoning I suspect.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> Other opinions are soon to follow, you do not like the RCA????



I liked the RCA until I got better tubes.

Today I have: GEC 6080, GEC CV4079, TS 6080, Bendix 6080, Chatham 6as7g and Sylvania 6080 GB.

I already had the TS 5998.

Now, that GE at the time I had paid $ 10.

I wouldn't pay again.

Comparing it to the TS 5998 is ridiculous.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> What amp were you using with the tubes, a DV?  What driver tube?
> 
> I am using an amp I designed with the 5998 being the baseline, the driver tube is to die for, and I am listening with Focal Utopias. Next to it I have an identical amp with a Tung Sol 5998 that I can compare.



I use Darkvoice.

Conductor tubes I have:

Melz 1578, Foton 1952, Brimar 6sn7gt, GEC L63, TS 6j5gt, TS 6j5g, Sylvania 6j5gt, Fivre 6c5g, Kenrad vt231, Sylvania vt231, RCA vt231, Raytheon Vt231.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  What a dumbass!!


What a coincidence!  I had exactly the same thought about this 4th person.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I liked the RCA until I got better tubes.
> 
> Today I have: GEC 6080, GEC CV4079, TS 6080, Bendix 6080, Chatham 6as7g and Sylvania 6080 GB.
> 
> ...


You are entitled to your opinion but it is the only other 5998 I own.  Four of us have long histories with tubes. How long have you been listening?


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't know why anyone would by a GE 5998A when a GEC 5998A can be bought so inexpensively.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't know why anyone would buy a GE 5998A.


Here...fixed this for 'ya.  You're welcome.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here...fixed this for 'ya.  You're welcome.


You may well be surprised by the results Bill, Sam is listening to one, as am I but more on that later, back to work for me.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion but it is the only other 5998 I own.  Four of us have long histories with tubes. How long have you been listening?



As you said, I am entitled to my opinion.

And I gave it.

What does your long history with tubes have to do with my impressions of my listening sessions?

Are you trying to disqualify my opinion?

Honestly, I've heard a lot of people say bad things about Heard-Fi, now I understand why.

It seems to me that there is a clear attempt here to inflate the price of a tube by giving praise that it does not deserve.

There, i said it.

Have a good time.


----------



## Ripper2860

Pairing and Synergy are very important -- as are personal preferences.  One man's trash could very well be another's treasure.  

As for @bcowen  -- He protesteth too much as it relates to GE tubes.  He's hiding something.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> So now we have to wait _another_ 100 hours to know what it sounds like?  Criminy.


...or what it does not sound like....🎼 or 💥....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You will wait much longer, Frank does not have his and this is a team effort. Lot’s of ins and outs and what have you’s, be patient while we consider pooling our money to buy all we can find.😁. Or not
> 
> Mine just arrived, it works, it is not a tall tube. How's that for information.?  Oh yeah it is mostly black and white with a little grey thrown in.


and it is glass...


----------



## SHIMACM

Ripper2860 said:


> Pairing and Synergy are very important -- as are personal preferences.  One man's trash could very well be another's treasure.
> 
> As for @bcowen  -- He protesteth too much as it relates to GE tubes.  He's hiding something.



I agree that synergy and pairing are very important. But even if you make the right pairings, there are tubes that are simply limited. What is the case with this GE.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> and it is glass...


You certainly have a sharp eye.😎


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 16, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> I agree that synergy and pairing are very important. But even if you make the right pairings, there are tubes that are simply limited. What is the case with this GE.



True.  There's no accounting for personal preference, however.  

I may be totally underwhelmed, but at their price, I don't mind finding out for myself.  The 7N7 Frankie was a very pleasant surprise that I and many never expected, so WTH.


----------



## Slade01 (Apr 16, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> I agree that synergy and pairing are very important. But even if you make the right pairings, there are tubes that are simply limited. What is the case with this GE.



Well this is a good segue into my question for @Paladin79.  I'm almost certain I already know the answer to this but can an amp's implementation overcome (or compensate) that much for a tube's would-be sound signature and characteristics?

For example like @SHIMACM and myself who have tried the GE 5998A in a Darkvoice and hated it, but in an Incubus (a well designed and regarded amp) can make the same tube sound palatable (or dare I say good)?

I always read on other forums how some other tube going audio enthusiasts wax poetic on GE 5 star tubes, or even Brent Jesse would have nothing but kind words for GE:  _"Many audiophiles prefer either the Sylvania chrome tops, the RCA, or the GE side getter over any others, even over the military or redbase types.  The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_ (at least describing 6SN7), which to me in a Darkvoice is just a hot mess.  Bloated, muddy, and not worth it.  No pairing I had could save it.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- by pairing I also meant amp pairing -- not just driver tube pairing.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Here...fixed this for 'ya.  You're welcome.


Ripper2860 said:
I don't know why anyone would buy a GE

Here fixed this for you too lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 16, 2021)

Perhaps some of the DV amps made for 220v sound better but in choosing tubes to send HTSkywalker I used a stock DV, and while most tubes had hum and background noise, some were unbearable!!  I have been listening to tubes since the mid sixties and I would have a hard time telling a good tube from a bad in a stock DV. Maybe some sound better than others but if that is the case, why are so many modifying them trying to reduce the noise lol.  It is a $200 amp and a good buy at that price.

The people who are listening to the GE 5998A  are all very honorable men and the consensus may be the tube is awful, I say again all are listening in one of my amps for the most part. Cowen has one but he has not heard this power tube. If one person says they hated the tube in a DV, so noted.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Well this is a good segue into my question for @Paladin79.  I'm almost certain I already know the answer to this but can an amp's implementation overcome (or compensate) that much for a tube's would-be sound signature and characteristics?
> 
> For example like @SHIMACM and myself who have tried the GE 5998A in a Darkvoice and hated it, but in an Incubus (a most likely well designed amp) can make the same tube sound palatable (or dare I say good)?
> 
> I always read on other forums how some other tube going audio enthusiasts wax poetic on GE 5 star tubes, or even Brent Jesse would have nothing but kind words for GE:  _"Many audiophiles prefer either the Sylvania chrome tops, the RCA, or the GE side getter over any others, even over the military or redbase types.  The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_ (at least describing 6SN7), which to me in a Darkvoice is just a hot mess.  Bloated, muddy, and not worth it.  No pairing I had could save it.


While this is true, the main point is comparing the GE 5998A to the Tung Sol 5998 regardless of amp. Could be good or bad based on the mating and synergy with the amp used regardless.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 16, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> While this is true, the main point is comparing the GE 5998A to the Tung Sol 5998 regardless of amp. Could be good or bad based on the mating and synergy with the amp used regardless.


There will be other power tubes used and all ratings done by me will be blind listening.  In A/B testing were I to put a 6as7g in one amp and 5998 in another, I could tell by gain which was which unless someone else sets the output level.

At no point did anyone say a GE and Tung Sol are the same, but they are both 5998's. I read someone claim it was really a 6as7g but not so, it has the same gain as the Tung Sol. Please note, if I love a tube I send it on to Ripper, Cowen, Sam6550, FLTWS and at least 8 local audiophiles. I never go by one opinion even if it is my own. Ripper owns the same driver tube I will be using and it is stellar. Most everyone I know gave it high marks.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Perhaps some of the DV amps made for 220v sound better but in choosing tubes to send HTSkywalker I used a stock DV, and while most tubes had hum and background noise, some were unbearable!!  I have been listening to tubes since the mid sixties and I would have a hard time telling a good tube from a bad in a stock DV. Maybe some sound better than others but if that is the case, why are so many modifying them trying to reduce the noise lol.  It is a $200 amp and a good buy at that price.
> 
> The people who are listening to the GE 5998A  are all very honorable men and the consensus may be the tube is awful, I say again all are listening in one of my amps for the most part. Cowen has one but he has not heard this power tube. If one person says they hated the tube in a DV, so noted.


True about a very slight hum starting around 11 but not affecting the audio experience, not much noise though especially with the 220V latest model. At $200 the DV is a steal especially when used as a pre-amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There will be other power tubes used and all ratings done by me will be blind listening. At no point did anyone say a GE and Tung Sol are the same, but they are both 5998's. I read someone claim it was really a 6as7g but not so, it has the same gain as the Tung Sol. Please note, if I love a tube I send it on to Ripper, Cowen, Sam6550, FLTWS and at least 8 local audiophiles. I never go by one opinion even if it is my own. Ripper owns the same driver tube I will be using and it is stellar. Most everyone I know gave it high marks.


In this case with all of you using the Incubus with the Melz as the driver tube to test the GE, am sure will have a beyond doubt result.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> In this case with all of you using the Incubus with the Melz as the driver tube to test the GE, am sure will have a beyond doubt result.


I will use two matched drivers and two matched amps and score them blind. I will use the same test music my audiophile group is using with 6sn7's, same scoring system as well. In that case the power tubes are Tung Sol 5998's. It is as objective as local engineers can make a subjective thing lol. Afterwards I will do plenty of listening, if I think the GE worthy.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> As for @bcowen  -- He protesteth too much as it relates to GE tubes.  He's hiding something.


Well, I hate to say you're correct, but you are.  Every time I write my _real_ feelings about GE's, the forum software replaces every word with ****************.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 16, 2021)

I have many (way too many) 6SN7 tubes and I gotta say that several tubes that were rather 'meh' on a Lyr 3 turned out to sound very nice on Incubus.  Not saying that will happen with a GE power tube, but if it has any chance of being a sleeper tube, it will be revealed with Incubus -- especially when paired with my Melz Tormé driver tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You may well be surprised by the results Bill, Sam is listening to one, as am I but more on that later, back to work for me.


That's entirely possible.  I'll be surprised if I'm surprised, but I like surprises. Mostly.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 16, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I have many (way too many) 6SN7 tubes and I gotta say that several tubes that were rather 'meh' on a Lyr 3 turned out to sound very nice on Incubus.  Not saying that will happen with a GE power tube, but if it has any chance of being a sleeper tube, it will be revealed with Incubus -- especially when paired with my Melz Tormé driver tube.


And I have a couple that were awesome in the Lyr 3 (the Frankie being one) but are just nice sounding (and not outstanding) in both the Incubus *and* the Darkvoice.  Two different topologies (hybrid versus OTL).  Same listener preference, same ancillary equipment, but two different outcomes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's entirely possible.  I'll be surprised if I'm surprised, but I like surprises. Mostly.


Well you know the players, let the games begin!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 16, 2021)

Sure, @bcowen -- but you have Incubus v1 where as I have a v2.  And yours is side-ways, so no telling what that does with signal phase.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure, @bcowen -- but you have Incubus v1 where as I have a v2.


True, everyone else involved has the V2 and real wood cabinets!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure, @bcowen -- but you have Incubus v1 where as I have a v2.  And your is side-ways, so no telling what that does with signal phase.


Yeah, but mine is sitting on a Tiger maple rack, so any V2 improvements are thereby minimized if not altogether negated.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> True, everyone else involved has the V2 and real wood cabinets!!!


Fine, rub it in.  But his is located in TX where the earth's magnetic field is so screwed up that even BBQ tastes like rotting landfill, so there's that.


----------



## Galapac

SHIMACM said:


> As you said, I am entitled to my opinion.
> 
> And I gave it.
> 
> ...


I think they were just fair honest questions with no harm intended.
The ask I'm sure was to get a bit of your background as the gentlemen here are testing the tube and are interested in others opinions.
They have not even shared their thoughts yet on their experience with the tube.
If anyone thought that a GE tube could be hyped it is only @bcowen, lol.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> If anyone thought that a GE tube could be hyped it is only @bcowen, lol.



ROFL!  I could be wrong.  I think.  But it's possible I'm mistaken on that, so nevermind.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 16, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but mine is sitting on a Tiger maple rack, so any V2 improvements are thereby minimized if not altogether negated.


And everyone knows of the structural and sonic benefits of an orthogonal orientation between a ‘sideways’ amp and ‘normal’ rack...☝️


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I think they were just fair honest questions with no harm intended.
> The ask I'm sure was to get a bit of your background as the gentlemen here are testing the tube and are interested in others opinions.
> They have not even shared their thoughts yet on their experience with the tube.
> If anyone thought that a GE tube could be hyped it is only @bcowen, \



You are correct on all counts I do believe.

I have given no opinion other than I got one, it plays, it is a short tube or some such lol. Several of us are having fun with @bcowen because he hates GE. 

I was joking about buying some of these if they are wonderful, or not if they are awful. I was joking!  I do not need more tubes but I had not heard one of these.   Nor had a small circle of friends.

I will give one as serious listen and give as unbiased opinion as I can perhaps only to @bcowen and @HTSkywalker, I know the other guys pretty well and IMHO they will do the same.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> And everyone knows of the structural and sonic benefits an orthogonal orientation between a ‘sideways’ amp and ‘normal’ rack...☝️


Luckily the DV only goes in one direction so I did not have to build a sideways extension cabinet for Bill.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And everyone knows of the structural and sonic benefits of an orthogonal orientation between a ‘sideways’ amp and ‘normal’ rack...☝️


You are wise beyond your years.  And I don't even know how old you are.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You are correct on all counts I do believe.
> 
> I have given no opinion other than I got one, it plays, it is a short tube or some such lol. Several of us are having fun with @bcowen because he hates GE.
> 
> ...


If you keep buying GE tubes, “will the circle be unbroken” or just a lot smaller?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You are wise beyond your years.  And I don't even know how old you are.


Nor do I....whatever happened to growing old _dis_gracefully?...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If you keep buying GE tubes, “will the circle be unbroken” or just a lot smaller?


I generally just buy GE tubes made by Ken Rad, and I do not have a 6550 capable amp, so this and some tubes for a Cary amp will be my only venture into larger GE tubes lol.
Bill gave me the GE tubes for the Cary as I recall.  

Most know I am involved in testing most all 6sn7 equivalents known to man and we limited the final testing to 52 but no GE's made the grade. I probably only own 50 or less 6080's, 6as7g's, 5998's, and 7236's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I generally just buy GE tubes made by Ken Rad, and I do not have a 6550 capable amp, so this and some tubes for a Cary amp will be my only venture into larger GE tubes lol.
> Bill gave me the GE tubes for the Cary as I recall.
> 
> Most know I am involved in testing most all 6sn7 equivalents known to man and we limited the final testing to 52 but no GE's made the grade. I probably only own 50 or less 6080's, 6as7g's, 5998's, and 7236's.


You can run 6550's in your SLA-70.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Fine, rub it in.  But his is located in TX where the earth's magnetic field is so screwed up that even BBQ tastes like rotting landfill, so there's that.


Wouldn’t a wacky magnetic field perform the ultimate alchemy:  GE—>WE ?...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Luckily the DV only goes in one direction so I did not have to build a sideways extension cabinet for Bill.


Upside-down?...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 16, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You can run 6550's in your SLA-70.


Ok send me some to try, you owe me.  Got any GE's? If not I bet I know who does. No hurry though I need to work on that amp sometime and I put the Cowen amp I designed in its place.  Naturally I included tiger maple.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Upside-down?...


I suppose it could be.😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I suppose it could be.😺


Is the most electrically sound DV an empty DV?


----------



## DeweyCH

bcowen said:


> Fine, rub it in.  But his is located in TX where the earth's magnetic field is so screwed up that even BBQ tastes like rotting landfill, so there's that.


Even as a Missourian I take offense at your description of Texan bbq


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Is the most electrically sound DV an empty DV?


If an amp makes no sound at all, does it sound good or bad?


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Even as a Missourian I take offense at your description of Texan bbq


Show me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok send me some to try, you owe me.  Got any GE's? If not I bet I know who does. No hurry though I need to work on that amp sometime and I put the Cowen amp I designed in its place.  Naturally I included tiger maple.


Sorry, no GE 6550's.  I know that comes as a total shock and all.    I probably have a quad of Ruby's (Chinese) left in the unused stash, but those Ei's kick them to the curb.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If an amp makes no sound at all, does it sound good or bad?


Silence is golden? (in the case of stock DV...). Q _du jour_:  Does a Philips ECG tube (giving GE a break) sound horrific in outer space? (Or is its abysmal quality transcendent?)


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Silence is golden? (in the case of stock DV...). Q _du jour_:  Does a Philips ECG tube (giving GE a break) sound horrific in outer space? (Or is its abysmal quality transcendent?)


Do all sounds, given their physical characteristics, travel through space in infinity, bombarding other life forms with an endless cacophony of noise from centuries past forward?


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Do all sounds, given their physical characteristics, travel through space in infinity, bombarding other life forms with an endless cacophony of noise from centuries past forward?


If there are atmospheres elsewhere, I would say yes. Ramification:  GE / P-ECG / Chinese ‘rice’ tubes vie for worst place in Alpha Centauri....


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If there are atmospheres elsewhere, I would say yes. Ramification:  GE / P-ECG / Chinese ‘rice’ tubes vie for worst place in Alpha Centauri....


Sound needs a medium to vibrate against and that does not work well in a vacuum so the mention of atmospheres is important.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Sound needs a medium to vibrate against and that does not work well in a vacuum so the mention of atmospheres is important.


So once sound radiates out, past our atmosphere, then it becomes nothing, it ceases to exist...
Given that, I find it ironic that a vacuum tube, itself a microcosm of a dead space, assists in the amplification of sound.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Sound needs a medium to vibrate against and that does not work well in a vacuum so the mention of atmospheres is important.


Is not sound the vibration itself of molecules/particles/mass in an atmosphere?


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> So once sound radiates out, past our atmosphere, then it becomes nothing, it ceases to exist...
> Given that, I find it ironic that a vacuum tube, itself a microcosm of a dead space, assists in the amplification of sound.


I wouldn’t say ‘dead’ (versus alive) but rather ‘inert’ (nothing to move or vibrate).


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> So once sound radiates out, past our atmosphere, then it becomes nothing, it ceases to exist...
> Given that, I find it ironic that a vacuum tube, itself a microcosm of a dead space, assists in the amplification of sound.


Electron flow as opposed to sound waves.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I have many (way too many) 6SN7 tubes and I gotta say that several tubes that were rather 'meh' on a Lyr 3 turned out to sound very nice on Incubus.  Not saying that will happen with a GE power tube, but if it has any chance of being a sleeper tube, it will be revealed with Incubus -- especially when paired with my Melz Tormé driver tube.


Well that being said, probably any tube will sound nice in the Incubus (including the GE 😉) and since the Incubus is @Paladin79 exclusive brain child, everyone who like to get the "cheap" GE 5998A needs to couple it with an Incubus to make it shine  
And this how incubus.com started, see after all GE is not that bad lol


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Electron flow as opposed to sound waves.


Plus, if there were not a vacuum inside the tube, heat from filaments etc would cause the air inside to expand and to break the glass?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Well that being said, probably any tube will sound nice in the Incubus (including the GE 😉) and since the Incubus is @Paladin79 exclusive brain child, everyone who like to get the "cheap" GE 5998A needs to couple it with an Incubus to make it shine
> And this how incubus.com started, see after all GE is not that bad lol


If _any_ tube sounds ‘nice’, is a name change in order?         In_cute_bus


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If _any_ tube sounds ‘nice’, is a name change in order?         In_cute_bus


I concentrate on the whole chain in my system, any weak link can cause issues. I build all cables, the headphone amp, and search for wonderful tubes. I can hear things with Focal Utopias that are not present, or limited with most headphones. If the GE 5998 is a weak link I will know soon enough.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well that being said, probably any tube will sound nice in the Incubus (including the GE 😉) and since the Incubus is @Paladin79 exclusive brain child, everyone who like to get the "cheap" GE 5998A needs to couple it with an Incubus to make it shine
> And this how incubus.com started, see after all GE is not that bad lol


I am trying to have a weekend free sometime in the near future and I have other projects, no advertising please.😉

For family I build things to remember me by and I have done the same for friends with the Incubus, I am caught up now, I may do a loaner but that could well be it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> And I have a couple that were awesome in the Lyr 3 (the Frankie being one) but are just nice sounding (and not outstanding) in both the Incubus *and* the Darkvoice.  Two different topologies (hybrid versus OTL).  Same listener preference, same ancillary equipment, but two different outcomes.


IMHO Some tubes are just bad or great in general consensus, other tubes are OK and differ from 1 platform to another. Taking a good or even OK tube and designing, optimizing and fine tuning an amp around it will definitely make it shine (the Incubus maybe a good example -unless @Paladin79 designed as a totally transparent amp- The Cavalli CTH around the 6922).
So yes even a "bad" tube can surprise you given the platform used around it. Maybe this GE will 🙄🙄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I think they were just fair honest questions with no harm intended.
> The ask I'm sure was to get a bit of your background as the gentlemen here are testing the tube and are interested in others opinions.
> They have not even shared their thoughts yet on their experience with the tube.
> If anyone thought that a GE tube could be hyped it is only @bcowen, lol.


True I second that, we all come here with an open mind sharing our experiences and exploring other's to learn from. That's what a Forum is all about:, no need to feel defensive
as we are all here for the love of the hobby and our openness towards new ideas and making new friends:
forum noun [C] (ANCIENT ROME)​in ancient Rome, the area in the middle of the town used for public business and exchanging ideas


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ok send me some to try, you owe me.  Got any GE's? If not I bet I know who does. No hurry though I need to work on that amp sometime and I put the Cowen amp I designed in its place.  Naturally I included tiger maple.


Whose Mammoth is that ???😍😍😍
Warning: This does not look "Wife" friendly in the house


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Is the most electrically sound DV an empty DV?


Well in stripped status (no tubes plugged) the DV generates no humming, totally silent 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If an amp makes no sound at all, does it sound good or bad?


Who knows, only a deaf person can tell 😇


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Is not sound the vibration itself of molecules/particles/mass in an atmosphere?


I went all the way up to re-check if am still in the Head-fi forum or a quantum physics one lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Whose Mammoth is that ???😍😍😍
> Warning: This does not look "Wife" friendly in the house


It is no wider than full size Schiit gear, it does weight quite a bit, I kept it for myself. I was handed a bucket of parts and a wager was made that I could not build a 15 watt class A SET amp from said parts that sounded great. I won the bet then put better parts in the amp an kept it. The power tubes were first used in WW II in both Russian and German transmitters. The Russians used them much longer because of the outcome of the war.  The 1942 German tubes I own were most likely used on U boats, and built by Telefunken. The power tubes are pentodes that I run as triodes.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> IMHO Some tubes are just bad or great in general consensus, other tubes are OK and differ from 1 platform to another. Taking a good or even OK tube and designing, optimizing and fine tuning an amp around it will definitely make it shine (the Incubus maybe a good example -unless @Paladin79 designed as a totally transparent amp- The Cavalli CTH around the 6922).
> So yes even a "bad" tube can surprise you given the platform used around it. Maybe this GE will 🙄🙄


My amp was made to show off tube sound, especially the 6sn7. It will NOT make a bad sounding tube sound better lol,  it tends to show off flaws in said tubes.  Those who have heard the Incubus tend to agree. I did design more around the 5998 than 6AS7G's but either will work. I built four identical amps and donated them to my audiophile group, along the way people said they loved the SQ but I thought they were humoring me so I sent one to Cowen, Jedi, Ripper, FLTWS etc. and they all wanted one so I ended up making over fifty, mostly for friends, a few for folks I did not know.  

Now getting back to DV, mine arrived with so much hum and distortion that I could not listen to it for long. Some working tubes sounded worse than others, Russian tubes did not play well with the DV, the noise was magnified about ten times. At any given time I have around ten tube type headphone amps I can compare, some let me hear differences in tubes more than others. Once I remove the noise from my DV I might be able to compare tubes in it.


----------



## SHIMACM (Apr 17, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I think they were just fair honest questions with no harm intended.
> The ask I'm sure was to get a bit of your background as the gentlemen here are testing the tube and are interested in others opinions.
> They have not even shared their thoughts yet on their experience with the tube.
> If anyone thought that a GE tube could be hyped it is only @bcowen, lol.



Everything is fine.

The point is that when saying "Four of us have long histories with tubes" it seemed to me an argument that implicitly brought irony as a way to disqualify my comment.

It seemed to me the same as saying: Look, we're the gurus here, you're a newbie, so you probably don't know what you're saying.

That struck me as offensive.

Well, the point is that, despite having only a four-year hobby, I listened to the tube and combined it with many other tube drives, and I didn't like GE.

And bringing it to the level of the TS 5998, it struck me as extremely bizarre.

Now if the case is an amplifier designed around the 5998, I really don't have the knowledge to give an opinion.


But my opinion was limited to just comparing the GE 5998a to the TS 5998, which, in most tube amplifiers, according to the opinion of many users, and in my opinion with Darkvoice, GE resembles the floor of the TS.

My Darkvoice is 220v and has no noise, with a completely black background.

For me, he has an excellent performer.

I haven't tested many tube amps.

But I was able to compare Darkvoice with a Woo Wa2, and honestly, depending on the tubes I put in Darkvoice, it gives me an even better performance.

Of course, don't get me wrong, Woo didn't have the best tubes and Darkvoice had the best possible combination for me.

But this shows that the tubes make a lot of difference in tube amplifiers.

I believe that if Woo had tip tubes, he would defeat Darkvoice easily, but I didn't have the opportunity to compare them that way.

Here is just a forum with gentlemen who want to exchange experiences and make friends, but disqualifying the other's comment, without having the exact knowledge of the other's experience, is unpleasant. .

I respect the knowledge of the gurus here, but disqualifying an honest opinion from those who heard the valve of an extremely popular amplifier here seemed arrogant.


----------



## SHIMACM

Changing the subject.

For those looking for a bargain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Test-Good-...e-Ham-Radio-Tube-Power-Audio-Amp/393248630478


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> Everything is fine.
> 
> The point is that when saying "Four of us have long histories with tubes" it seemed to me an argument that implicitly brought irony as a way to disqualify my comment.
> 
> ...


I was merely wondering if you had tried the tube in several amps, and I even said maybe the 220 V version has less noise.  It seems that way for Skywalker in Lebanon.  I cannot judge a tube in my DV, I spend too much time wondering why it has all the hum and distortion lol. That is not directed at you, it is my opinion of the amp I received.

Sorry you took things the way you did. I have yet to give an opinion on the tube and I will do so privately after all of us who just bought one collect our results. That way I cannot be accused of steering people to a  half dozen or so sellers of said GE tube.  I may totally agree with you that the tube sucks but I will give it a fair shot at burning in first.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2021)

This is the beginning of my blind tube test using two Incubus amps that are for the most part bread boarded right now. I put the volume pot knobs on randomly so they cannot be used to judge volume level, a buddy who has had both Covid shots will do setup and tube swapping between 5998's, amps can be switched back and forth so I can judge the same music passages on Focal Utopias. Source is a Gungnir running test music made to emphasize 25 sonic qualities. At this point the GE 5998A is on the right and the Tung Sol 5998 is on the left. Tubes need not be changed, the outputs to the headphones can be changed at a switch box or by swapping tubes. Driver tubes are a matched set of Melz solid plate 1578's, the amps are as identical as I can make them.

My friend is familiar with this type of testing so hopefully he has time to offer his results. It is a number score that goes up to 100, a tube may do well in sound stage and not as well in some of the bass, mid, or high frequency tests, each of the 25 criteria can get a rating of 1-4.  Other friends will be doing more of a standard description but I personally hate to do those lol.

The 1958 Melz tubes have an average preliminary rating of 94 as I recall, they are good enough to be toward the top in my 6sn7 testing but the final numbers will come from a group of 50 people. I believe in the accuracy of large groups.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This is the beginning of my blind tube test using two Incubus amps that are for the most part bread boarded right now. I put the volume pot knobs on randomly so they cannot be used to judge volume level, a buddy who has had both Covid shots will do setup and tube swapping between 5998's, amps can be switched back and forth so I can judge the same music passages on Focal Utopias. Source is a Gungnir running test music made to emphasize 25 sonic qualities. At this point the GE 5998A is on the right and the Tung Sol 5998 is on the left. Tubes need not be changed, the outputs to the headphones can be changed at a switch box or by swapping tubes. Driver tubes are a matched set of Melz solid plate 1578's, the amps are as identical as I can make them.
> 
> My friend is familiar with this type of testing so hopefully he has time to offer his results. It is a number score that goes up to 100, a tube may do well in sound stage and not as well in some of the bass, mid, or high frequency tests, each of the 25 criteria can get a rating of 1-4.  Other friends will be doing more of a standard description but I personally hate to do those lol.
> 
> The 1958 Melz tubes have an average preliminary rating of 94 as I recall, they are good enough to be toward the top in my 6sn7 testing but the final numbers will come from a group of 50 people. I believe in the accuracy of large groups.


Is it Happening tonight ??


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Ok send me some to try, you owe me.  Got any GE's? If not I bet I know who does. No hurry though I need to work on that amp sometime and I put the Cowen amp I designed in its place.  Naturally I included tiger maple.


I will take all of the nasty 6550 or 6550a GE tubes that bcowen discards.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Is it Happening tonight ??


I will have my results later tonight but Frank and Ripper have not received their tubes yet but should before long. Maybe we can put together a word document for those interested. I will just do a score myself and may list my biggest likes or dislikes..


----------



## bcowen (Apr 17, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> This is the beginning of my blind tube test using two Incubus amps that are for the most part bread boarded right now. I put the volume pot knobs on randomly so they cannot be used to judge volume level, a buddy who has had both Covid shots will do setup and tube swapping between 5998's, amps can be switched back and forth so I can judge the same music passages on Focal Utopias. Source is a Gungnir running test music made to emphasize 25 sonic qualities. At this point the GE 5998A is on the right and the Tung Sol 5998 is on the left. Tubes need not be changed, the outputs to the headphones can be changed at a switch box or by swapping tubes. Driver tubes are a matched set of Melz solid plate 1578's, the amps are as identical as I can make them.
> 
> My friend is familiar with this type of testing so hopefully he has time to offer his results. It is a number score that goes up to 100, a tube may do well in sound stage and not as well in some of the bass, mid, or high frequency tests, each of the 25 criteria can get a rating of 1-4.  Other friends will be doing more of a standard description but I personally hate to do those lol.
> 
> The 1958 Melz tubes have an average preliminary rating of 94 as I recall, they are good enough to be toward the top in my 6sn7 testing but the final numbers will come from a group of 50 people. I believe in the accuracy of large groups.


Awwwwww, man.  And here I was thinking the middle picture was my Incubus V2.  But I get it...cardboard from a Prime box is probably too nice.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I will take all of the nasty 6550 or 6550a GE tubes that bcowen discards.


I did learn they will work in my Cary amp once I cure a slight noise problem. Oh yeah I had to move my personal Incubus to set up the A/B test for later. This one is not for sale.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Awwwwww, man.  And here I was thinking the middle picture was my Incubus V2.  But I get it...carboard from a Prime box is probably too nice.


Maybe after Finnegan plays with the box for a while it will be more worthy for you. There is always hope. On this setup I just ran the volume controls to the front board and used the others for support. You do not want to see all the cables, wires jacks and switches coming out of the back of this setup.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I did learn they will work in my Cary amp once I cure a slight noise problem. Oh yeah I had to move my personal Incubus to set up the A/B test for later. This one is not for sale.


Love that transformer cover.  Now I'm gonna have to dust off the copycat desk...again.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Electron flow as opposed to sound waves.





bcowen said:


> Awwwwww, man.  And here I was thinking the middle picture was my Incubus V2.  But I get it...cardboard from a Prime box is probably too nice.


If you wish hard enough you might get samsonite...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you wish hard enough you might get samsonite...


Samsonite was a suitcase.  I'm still hoping for Masonite though....or maybe even Herculeanite.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Samsonite was a suitcase.  I'm still hoping for Masonite though....or maybe even Herculeanite.


What about Kryptonite lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will have my results later tonight but Frank and Ripper have not received their tubes yet but should before long. Maybe we can put together a word document for those interested. I will just do a score myself and may list my biggest likes or dislikes..


Interested 🤚


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> Everything is fine.
> 
> The point is that when saying "Four of us have long histories with tubes" it seemed to me an argument that implicitly brought irony as a way to disqualify my comment.
> 
> ...


"My Darkvoice is 220v and has no noise, with a completely black background."
Which tubes were you using ? headphones impedance ? was there still no slight hum if you crank it up with no music playing ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I was merely wondering if you had tried the tube in several amps, and I even said maybe the 220 V version has less noise.  It seems that way for Skywalker in Lebanon.  I cannot judge a tube in my DV, I spend too much time wondering why it has all the hum and distortion lol. That is not directed at you, it is my opinion of the amp I received.
> 
> Sorry you took things the way you did. I have yet to give an opinion on the tube and I will do so privately after all of us who just bought one collect our results. That way I cannot be accused of steering people to a  half dozen or so sellers of said GE tube.  I may totally agree with you that the tube sucks but I will give it a fair shot at burning in first.


Probably the 220V does not hum or buzz as the 110V version as the original design is around the 220V Chinese standard voltage coz tubes are sensitive to voltage.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> What about Kryptonite lol


But...but....but....I'm Superman.  You trying to kill me?  I mean that wouldn't have been a surprise coming from @Ripper2860 , but what have I ever done to you?  I mean so far?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 17, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably the 220V does not hum or buzz as the 110V version as the original design is around the 220V Chinese standard voltage coz tubes are sensitive to voltage.


Would rice inside the tubes, as we have heard of before, absorb hum & buzz?....Maybe those are the equivalent of ‘Kevin’s stash’ at Upscale Audio....


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Would rice inside the tubes, as we have heard of before, absorb hum & buzz?....Maybe those are the equivalent of ‘Kevin’s stash’ at Upscale Audio....


Possibly.  It might make them sound kind of grainy though.

(sorry )


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably the 220V does not hum or buzz as the 110V version as the original design is around the 220V Chinese standard voltage coz tubes are sensitive to voltage.


The US is also at 60 Hz, versus 50 Hz in China and Lebanon.  That in itself could have some effect as well.


----------



## Paladin79

I have completed my listening to the GE 5998A  and have a friends opinion as well and a few more may join in before I combine the info with Sam, Frank, and Ripper.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have completed my listening to the GE 5998A  and have a friends opinion as well and a few more may join in before I combine the info with Sam, Frank, and Ripper.


You can't change your avatar without at least a preview on the GE.  Forum rules.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You can't change your avatar without at least a preview on the GE.  Forum rules.


Nope sorry, I will wait for the other independent opinions, but nice try lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Nope sorry, I will wait for the other independent opinions, but nice try lol.


Don't make me use the Force on you.  Where's @JKDJedi when you need him?  Harumph.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Don't make me use the Force on you.  Where's @JKDJedi when you need him?  Harumph.


Ripper has to get his and I am not sure Texas is still part of the US, it may slow down his receiving mail. 😜


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The US is also at 60 Hz, versus 50 Hz in China and Lebanon.  That in itself could have some effect as well.


Wouldn't that just mean the amp/tubes would hum at a lower freq.?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Wouldn't that just mean the amp/tubes would hum at a lower freq.?


Yes and no, 50 hertz hum is still noticeable. On the 110 v versions the transformer wiring is an issue. Maybe they could not test them easily. It would be similar for me building a 220 version of my amp but running it at 60 hertz.

I believe it is mostly US owners modifying the amp, I have yet to do that but I will when time permits.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Wouldn't that just mean the amp/tubes would hum at a lower freq.?


Yes, 10 Hz lower.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> But...but....but....I'm Superman.  You trying to kill me?  I mean that wouldn't have been a surprise coming from @Ripper2860 , but what have I ever done to you?  I mean so far?


I only thought Pfizer came out with a vaccine for that too by now lol.
Relax you won't die from Kryptonite once you're vaccinated but probably your hearing would be affected in a way to make all tubes sound the same for you including GE 😂😂
" but what have I ever done to you?  I mean *so far*?"  😂😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Guess I probably shouldn't say this, but this combo could be....no, I shouldn't say it.  End Game ? (just thinking out loud).  No, I won't say it.  At least for rock and metal, this combo is like incredible. Tung Sol 5998 and Hytron (no CBS) 7A4's.  The dynamic duo.  Or trio, whatever.  In fact, I just got an email form Marilyn Manson:  "Dude, that is like _freakin_' *awesome*!"  (I substituted "freakin'" just to be family friendly).

@Paladin79 I gave him your phone number for an Incubus. Hope you don't mind.  He'll probably want his in black though.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Would rice inside the tubes, as we have heard of before, absorb hum & buzz?....Maybe those are the equivalent of ‘Kevin’s stash’ at Upscale Audio....


The rice scented tube became a display item long time now 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Possibly.  It might make them sound kind of grainy though.
> 
> (sorry )


a bit starchy too lol


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> ....your hearing would be affected in a way to make all tubes sound the same for you including GE 😂😂


Like I said....kill me.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The US is also at 60 Hz, versus 50 Hz in China and Lebanon.  That in itself could have some effect as well.


True, I also believe the higher the frequency the higher the noise


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Like I said....kill me.


Nah you are too valuable, I will put back the Kryptonite in a lead box away from @Paladin79 reach. I won't trade (maybe I would for a Tung Sol 5998) PM interested buyers lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> You can't change your avatar without at least a preview on the GE.  Forum rules.


Hear Hear. you can PM us the impressions if you think a public opinion about it may not be appropriate


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Don't make me use the Force on you.  Where's @JKDJedi when you need him?  Harumph.


You can always use my Lightsaber you know 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Wouldn't that just mean the amp/tubes would hum at a lower freq.?


Well in fact a very slight hum is audible and starts around 11 with no music playing but honestly no effect whatsoever on the music.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 17, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Yes and no, 50 hertz hum is still noticeable. On the 110 v versions the transformer wiring is an issue. Maybe they could not test them easily. It would be similar for me building a 220 version of my amp but running it at 60 hertz.
> 
> I believe it is mostly US owners modifying the amp, I have yet to do that but I will when time permits.


I second that, after reading lots of forums. The humming/buzzing issue is mostly reported in the US, probably it's continent dependent lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 17, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Ripper has to get his and I am not sure Texas is still part of the US, it may slow down his receiving mail. 😜



Yeah.  I think we seceded and forgot to tell anyone.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  I think we seceded and forgot to tell anyone.


Oh well you still have brisket and the Austin Lounge Lizards.


----------



## Ripper2860

A silver lining, indeed.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  I think we seceded and forgot to tell anyone.


And you kept ERCOT (electric reliability council of texas).....my condolences....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Oh well you still have brisket and the Austin Lounge Lizards _and the sxsw music festival...._


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Guess I probably shouldn't say this, but this combo could be....no, I shouldn't say it.  End Game ? (just thinking out loud).  No, I won't say it.  At least for rock and metal, this combo is like incredible. Tung Sol 5998 and Hytron (no CBS) 7A4's.  The dynamic duo.  Or trio, whatever.  In fact, I just got an email form Marilyn Manson:  "Dude, that is like _freakin_' *awesome*!"  (I substituted "freakin'" just to be family friendly).
> 
> @Paladin79 I gave him your phone number for an Incubus. Hope you don't mind.  He'll probably want his in black though.


Hell's kittens man! Are you torturing the Incubus again? It sounds like I need to block all calls starting immediately, I doubt I can get my phone number changed till Monday morning.  

I will have to revisit that combination again, I will use one of the Incubi I set up yesterday, There is just no room for an adapter on my personal Incubus because of the ladder pots. I want to say @Old Deaf Donkey sent me some of those tubes, as well as tubes for my amp formerly known as Cowen. Gemini regium is a much better name.

I have some time before Ripper gets his GE 5998A so I may have a few more friends score mine if time allows.   Time for more listening but no Marilyn Manson will taint an amp in my possession.

While an all black amp does sound interesting, I would hate to apply black lacquer to any of the hardwoods I own, poplar could work I suppose but I really want to do some dovetail cabinets and it would be a shame to paint over those. I do like this look in carbon fiber that I made for my son. Including pearl like knobs off of a Fender guitar.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's kittens man! Are you torturing the Incubus again? It sounds like I need to block all calls starting immediately, I doubt I can get my phone number changed till Monday morning.
> 
> I will have to revisit that combination again, I will use one of the Incubi I set up yesterday, There is just no room for an adapter on my personal Incubus because of the ladder pots. I want to say @Old Deaf Donkey sent me some of those tubes, as well as tubes for my amp formerly known as Cowen. Gemini regium is a much better name.
> 
> ...


Really interesting! Would the carbon fiber be less prone to static electricity & vibration, more heat resistant?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Really interesting! Would the carbon fiber be less prone to static electricity & vibration, more heat resistant?


Carbon fiber is great for draining off static and it is a poor conductor of heat, I covered aluminum plate material with the carbon fiber because I still  needed a good conductor of electricity which carbon fiber is not.  I used the original top plate from a Bottlehead Crack that I heavily modified for this build. This is the finished, product, my son wanted piano black lacquer. I allowed enough room inside for capacitors about the size of Coke cans.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Carbon fiber is great for draining off static and it is a poor conductor of heat, I covered aluminum plate material with the carbon fiber because I still  needed a good conductor of electricity which carbon fiber is not.  I used the original top plate from a Bottlehead Crack that I heavily modified for this build. This is the finished, product, my son wanted piano black lacquer. I allowed enough room inside for capacitors about the size of Coke cans.


Beautiful!  Even with a ‘tall’ base, is the bottom of the base open just as a BHC ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Beautiful!  Even with a ‘tall’ base, is the bottom of the base open just as a BHC ?


Yes, but I do not leave the bottoms open on Incubus amps, I have plenty of vent holes. The tall case consists of two original Crack cases made with aspen or some such, I forget.  I do not paint wood that has a lot of natural beauty. My newest endeavors will be with catalpa.

Maybe something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Catalpa-lumber-2-boards/362211541779?hash=item54557d8313:g:dIMAAOSwLI1aWN07

I am going to do black lacquer and maple on a sound system for a pottery shed, and maybe for table legs on a spalted maple table.

Anyway back to tubes, current listen is an RFT 6sn7 with a GE 5998A.  

current track is the Hollies, Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Yes, but I do not leave the bottoms open on Incubus amps, I have plenty of vent holes. The tall case consists of two original Crack cases made with aspen or some such, I forget.  I do not paint wood that has a lot of natural beauty. My newest endeavors will be with catalpa.
> 
> Maybe something like this:
> 
> ...


And what about you facial expressions while listening ???? 🧐🧐


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Beautiful!  Even with a ‘tall’ base, is the bottom of the base open just as a BHC ?


Mine just has a piece of (used) notebook paper duct-taped to the bottom.  I'm guessing that's the default with the cardboard-chassis version.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> And what about you facial expressions while listening ???? 🧐🧐


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> And what about you facial expressions while listening ???? 🧐🧐


Sorry I am on the inside looking out and my headphones will not reach to a mirror. 
You will know soon enough, I would estimate a week to ten days but that is just a ballpark guess.  
I am busy working with black lacquer right now anyway so listening will have to wait.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> You can always use my Lightsaber you know 😁


Really?  Very generous offer!  But I was only trying to extract information, nut hurt someone.  And what if I missed and hit Finnegan by mistake?  That would be a true tragedy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Mine just has a piece of (used) notebook paper duct-taped to the bottom.  I'm guessing that's the default with the cardboard-chassis version.


Paying customers get walnut or maple or cherry. I even made a headphone stand as a gift to Ripper out of chestnut.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 18, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


>


So *that's* what a normal Incubus looks like.  I may print this out and glue it to mine just so it looks kinda normal from...a distance.   

(and all kidding aside, you guys have seen many pics of my Incubus which is a gorgeous piece of work)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I even made a headphone stand as a gift to Ripper out of chestnut.


Well, you got the 'nut' part right, to be sure.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> So *that's* what a normal Incubus looks like.  I may print this out and glue it to mine just so it looks kinda normal from...a distance.
> 
> (and all kidding aside, you guys have seen many pics of my Incubus which is a gorgeous piece of work)


I am starting to like this two amp setup, and thanks I try to make all Incubi unique, yours is just way more unique than all the others lol.

Anyway I have the GE going head to head against a few other tubes, including Svetlana, RCA, Chatham, Bendix, et alia.

I did locate an RCA bottom getter ST that more closely resembles the Svetlana. I am trying a couple 50's vintage Svetlanas.

I have to wait an hour in between coats of black lacquer so I might as well listen to tubes.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's kittens man! Are you torturing the Incubus again? It sounds like I need to block all calls starting immediately, I doubt I can get my phone number changed till Monday morning.
> 
> I will have to revisit that combination again, I will use one of the Incubi I set up yesterday, There is just no room for an adapter on my personal Incubus because of the ladder pots. I want to say @Old Deaf Donkey sent me some of those tubes, as well as tubes for my amp formerly known as Cowen. Gemini regium is a much better name.
> 
> ...


Super Nice! Did you use one of those dip techniques or is that a film?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Super Nice! Did you use one of those dip techniques or is that a film?



I bought rolled up sheets of it that were to be used inside Corvettes, I want to say they are about 1/32 inch thick. I believe they even had adhesive backing. The end appearance on 1/8 inch aluminum worked out very well..

I used something more flexible when I had to bend around metal boxes for VU meters, this is just vinyl but I liked the look.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Yes, but I do not leave the bottoms open on Incubus amps, I have plenty of vent holes. The tall case consists of two original Crack cases made with aspen or some such, I forget.  I do not paint wood that has a lot of natural beauty. My newest endeavors will be with catalpa.
> 
> Maybe something like this:
> 
> ...


I believe they use alder wood. Here is one I am working on now. Very rustic, I wanted a mix of earth and tech...
I am using hammered paint for the top and Danish Oil Mahogany for the wood,


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I believe they use alder wood. Here is one I am working on now. Very rustic, I wanted a mix of earth and tech...
> I am using hammered paint for the top and Danish Oil Mahogany for the wood,


Alder sounds correct, and very nicely done. I do not use it much so I have a hard time remembering the name. I did not want any controls or jacks on top of the Cracks I modified. I did use the original transformer lol. Mine all had dual volume controls and I may have kept the IEC jack and switch.

I may use less original parts when I redo a DV.

I need to try the GE 5998A in the Crack amp I kept. Most things I keep are steampunk oriented and use copper top plates. I prefer the extra weight and conduction. 
Two pounds of copper on 3/4 to 1 inch wooden cabinet is about right for me. YMMV


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I believe they use alder wood. Here is one I am working on now. Very rustic, I wanted a mix of earth and tech...
> I am using hammered paint for the top and Danish Oil Mahogany for the wood,


That's gorgeous!  I've never tried the hammered paint.  Is it a pain, or relatively easy to use and get a nice appearance?  Assuming it came out of a spray can?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>


Finnegan would sound much better if that top shelf was maple.  But you already knew that.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That's gorgeous!  I've never tried the hammered paint.  Is it a pain, or relatively easy to use and get a nice appearance?  Assuming it came out of a spray can?


Hammered paint, pfft.
Real men use a ball-peen hammer!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hammered paint, pfft.
> Real men use a ball-peen hammer!


LOL!  But that would require physical effort.  Effort is an interesting concept, I've just never tried it myself.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Hammered paint, pfft.
> Real men use a ball-peen hammer!






I tend to just use chemical reactions myself, much less strenuous.

Today though will be nine or ten coats of black lacquer, sanding with 1,000 grit in between coats. A 50 watt portable music system will be the end result. Bill mentioned a black amp and he can barely make a sentence without the word maple in it, so I decided to use both in my build. I ALWAYS pay attention to what Bill says. My maple inlays and end caps should really stand out.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I tend to just use chemical reactions myself, much less strenuous.


Depending on them chemicals, quite enjoyable too😵


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Depending on them chemicals, quite enjoyable too😵


In this case just NH3, H2O, and NaCl does the trick. lol  Best just to combine everything and run away for a while.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> In this case just NH3, H2O, and NaCl does the trick. lol  Best just to combine everything and run away for a while.


Actually, in my world, chemical reactions tend to be _really_ strenuous. My family motto is "anas et operimentum" after all.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> That's gorgeous!  I've never tried the hammered paint.  Is it a pain, or relatively easy to use and get a nice appearance?  Assuming it came out of a spray can?


Spray paint and very easy. You start with a very thin, mist coat, then add 2 or 3 layers spraying in horizontal and vertical directions always starting off the piece and ending off the piece for a consistent look.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But that would require physical effort.  Effort is an interesting concept, I've just never tried it myself.


Do you use up enough energy just thinking about effort? 😆


----------



## Galapac

The motto I always live by is “_Work smarter, not harder”._
If I can find an easier way to accomplish the same result I use it.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Actually, in my world, chemical reactions tend to be _really_ strenuous. My family motto is "anas et operimentum" after all.


LOL duck and cover is a great motto, I also like Cogito ergo armibus sum,  anyway I digress. Bill needs to come back in and keep us talking about tubes for the DV since he has a modified US version that should be sounding pretty well.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> The motto I always live by is “_Work smarter, not harder”._
> If I can find an easier way to accomplish the same result I use it.


Get someone other than @bcowen to do the task....


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 18, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> LOL duck and cover is a great motto, I also like Cogito ergo armibus sum,  anyway I digress. Bill needs to come back in and keep us talking about tubes for the DV since he has a modified US version that should be sounding pretty well.


Wow. The last _direct_ reference to DV in this thread was in post # 9,345. What does that say about the DV?...


----------



## Galapac (Apr 18, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill needs to come back in and keep us talking about tubes for the DV since he has a modified US version that should be sounding pretty well.


Post #9404 just referenced DV... I also have L0rdGwyn’s beautifully modified DV.
Currently using a 1950’s Svetlana and 6SN7 RCA Smoked Glass.

edit: back on topic 🙃


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> "My Darkvoice is 220v and has no noise, with a completely black background."
> Which tubes were you using ? headphones impedance ? was there still no slight hum if you crank it up with no music playing ?



I have some tubes that still have a small hum. But it's from the tube, not the amplifier.

For example, if I am using Chatham 6as7g and Gec L63 I can increase the volume to the maximum without music playing as the background remains completely black.

My home network is 127v. I use a 127v to 220v 3000va transformer.

My phone is a Beyer T1 600 ohms.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Post #9404 just referenced DV...


I feel guilty going off topic, my amp uses the same tubes and of course the BH crack can as well with a 6sn7 adapter so I am accustomed to talking about the tubes the DV takes. I am curious though, all Russian tubes I tried in the DV had a lot of noise, maybe their tolerances were too tight or not tight enough. Does anyone run Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in it with better results?


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I have some tubes that still have a small hum. But it's from the tube, not the amplifier.
> 
> For example, if I am using Chatham 6as7g and Gec L63 I can increase the volume to the maximum without music playing as the background remains completely black.
> 
> ...


Ever try Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in yours?  I keep feeling that HTSkywalker might have been ok in his amp but they were awful in my DV so I did not send them to him.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 18, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I feel guilty going off topic, my amp uses the same tubes and of course the BH crack can as well with a 6sn7 adapter so I am accustomed to talking about the tubes the DV takes. I am curious though, all Russian tubes I tried in the DV had a lot of noise, maybe their tolerances were too tight or not tight enough. Does anyone run Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in it with better results?


It’s not off topic in that the BHC, DV and Incubus (may) use one power tube & one driver tube. The comparisons are inevitable (especially with this bunch of HFiers !)....


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> Ever try Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in yours?  I keep feeling that HTSkywalker might have been ok in his amp but they were awful in my DV so I did not send them to him.



My Fotons are buzzing. One with a very loud hum. My Melz 1578 is completely silent.

All two play wonderfully well with the correct pairing.

I am now hearing a TS 6080 and a Foton 1952.

Extremely pleasant sound, despite the hum, which does not disturb when the music is playing.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Post #9404 just referenced DV... I also have L0rdGwyn’s beautifully modified DV.
> Currently using a 1950’s Svetlana and 6SN7 RCA Smoked Glass.
> 
> edit: back on topic 🙃


Very good choices, IMHO. I want to say my favorite Grey glass rca was a 1942 version, on the Svetlana it is 1955.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> My Fotons are buzzing. One with a very loud hum. My Melz 1578 is completely silent.
> 
> All two play wonderfully well with the correct pairing.
> 
> ...


Both Fotons and Melz have pin solder issues but once in a while, you can get a Melz that is rock solid. My 58 solid plates are like that. My favorite 1578's are 1958 through 1963. If I want more midrange I will get one from the 70's or 80's. Some of the early ones had great sound top to bottom IMHO. I did let several on here listen to a 58 solid plate and they were all pretty impressed.

I did add a TS 6080 and Chatham to A/B with the GE along with other power tubes. I have to adjust the volume of course to get each to match but today I am just listening, yesterday was more serious.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> Both Fotons and Melz have pin solder issues but once in a while, you can get a Melz that is rock solid. My 58 solid plates are like that. My favorite 1578's are 1958 through 1963. If I want more midrange I will get one from the 70's or 80's. Some of the early ones had great sound top to bottom IMHO. I did let several on here listen to a 58 solid plate and they were all pretty impressed.
> 
> I did add a TS 6080 and Chatham to A/B with the GE along with other power tubes. I have to adjust the volume of course to get each to match but today I am just listening, yesterday was more serious.



The Melz I have is from 1969 with perforated plates.


----------



## jonathan c

.


----------



## Paladin79

Yep, I own that one as well, to me the mids are much more balanced on that tube. I own a lot of Melz, Mr. Cowen owns a high number of Fotons. I finally convinced him with resoldered pins they do not have to cook for 100 hours lol. I generally include Fotons and Svetlanas with my amps because I can find them, and I like them better than the new Russian tubes, and the Chinese tubes I like get very pricey.

Imagine the 1969 without the perforations but with all the other features of the 1578. Those are the solid plate Melz I refer to, and you need black shiny plates, I bought a dull grey version and it was not the same.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, I own that one as well, to me the mids are much more balanced on that tube. I own a lot of Melz, Mr. Cowen owns a high number of Fotons. I finally convinced him with resoldered pins they do not have to cook for 100 hours lol. I generally include Fotons and Svetlanas with my amps because I can find them, and I like them better than the new Russian tubes, and the Chinese tubes I like get very pricey.
> 
> Imagine the 1969 without the perforations but with all the other features of the 1578. Those are the solid plate Melz I refer to, and you need black shiny plates, I bought a dull grey version and it was not the same.



Is it difficult to find?


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> Is it difficult to find?


It took me six months. Ripper found one. 
I really think they ran out of perforated and used some solid plates. Mine are 1954 and 1958’s, I got the 54 in a group of tubes and hunted till I found more.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> It took me six months. Ripper found one.
> I really think they ran out of perforated and used some solid plates. Mine are 1954 and 1958’s, I got the 54 in a group of tubes and hunted till I found more.



I'll put it on my radar.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I'll put it on my radar.


It is rated very high by local friends as well as folks on HeadFi.  I also bought them around $35 each as I recall.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> My family motto is "anas et operimentum" after all.


 Anal what?!?  No comprendre.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Do you use up enough energy just thinking about effort? 😆


Yes. I need a nap now.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Get someone other than @bcowen to do the task....


Yes.  Any task.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I feel guilty going off topic, my amp uses the same tubes and of course the BH crack can as well with a 6sn7 adapter so I am accustomed to talking about the tubes the DV takes. I am curious though, all Russian tubes I tried in the DV had a lot of noise, maybe their tolerances were too tight or not tight enough. Does anyone run Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in it with better results?


As I've mentioned earlier, my particular DV had very little hum in totally stock form.  It was there, but very low in level and not at all intrusive once the music started.  I rolled quite a few tubes through it (both driver and power) and the hum was about the same -- there, but barely audible.  Then I stuck in a Foton (6N8S), and oh crap.  _Very _loud buzzing in both channels in addition to a much higher level (like 10x) of background hum.  This was a well used 1953 with fully resoldered pins, and the noise was the "turn off the amp quick before she blows!" kind of bad.  That same Foton is perfectly quiet in the Incubus, as it was in both the Schiit Lyr 3 and Vali 2.  Tried the '63 Melz you sent me after that -- slightly louder background hum than the earlier (non-Foton) tubes, but not bad and really not bad enough to even worry about. 

Then I added the cathode bypass caps, and the Foton got quiet as a church mouse.  Was even thinking about asking to borrow Finnegan to come find the mouse, 'cause it was so quiet I couldn't even hear *it* (and my cats just eat and sleep...they'd have no idea what to do with a mouse ).  After adding those caps, I get a totally black background with some tube combos, and just a very slight background level with some others.  That same Foton and the graphite plate Chatham 6080 make a wonderful pairing for, you know, Manson and other excellent music.  

What will be interesting is what happens once I get around to doing the mods @L0rdGwyn detailed, especially elevating the heaters.  My plan is to remove those caps once I do all that, and hopefully the hum will be gone without the need for them (as I have no doubt they are not contributing in a positive way to the overall sound quality of the amp).  They get rid of the hum, but there's no free lunch.  I got sidetracked working on a couple tube testers, so hope to get to the DV mods here shortly.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> As I've mentioned earlier, my particular DV had very little hum in totally stock form.  It was there, but very low in level and not at all intrusive once the music started.  I rolled quite a few tubes through it (both driver and power) and the hum was about the same -- there, but barely audible.  Then I stuck in a Foton (6N8S), and oh crap.  _Very _loud buzzing in both channels in addition to a much higher level (like 10x) of background hum.  This was a well used 1953 with fully resoldered pins, and the noise was the "turn off the amp quick before she blows!" kind of bad.  That same Foton is perfectly quiet in the Incubus, as it was in both the Schiit Lyr 3 and Vali 2.  Tried the '63 Melz you sent me after that -- slightly louder background hum than the earlier (non-Foton) tubes, but not bad and really not bad enough to even worry about.
> 
> Then I added the cathode bypass caps, and the Foton got quiet as a church mouse.  Was even thinking about asking to borrow Finnegan to come find the mouse, 'cause it was so quiet I couldn't even hear *it* (and my cats just eat and sleep...they'd have no idea what to do with a mouse ).  After adding those caps, I get a totally black background with some tube combos, and just a very slight background level with some others.  That same Foton and the graphite plate Chatham 6080 make a wonderful pairing for, you know, Manson and other excellent music.
> 
> What will be interesting is what happens once I get around to doing the mods @L0rdGwyn detailed, especially elevating the heaters.  My plan is to remove those caps once I do all that, and hopefully the hum will be gone without the need for them (as I have no doubt they are not contributing in a positive way to the overall sound quality of the amp).  They get rid of the hum, but there's no free lunch.  I got sidetracked working on a couple tube testers, so hope to get to the DV mods here shortly.


How does Marilyn Manson qualify as excellent, music, or both?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Is it difficult to find?


Yes.  I'm pretty sure @Ripper2860 wrote some auto-search / auto-purchase program running on the dark web that scoops them up before any Ebay listing has the time to even upload.    It's an excellent sounding tube (IMO), but extremely rare.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> How does Marilyn Manson qualify as excellent, music, or both?


Just asking the question deems you unworthy of being in the club.  I might have to request @Mr Trev (Sergeant At Arms) discard your application before you even send it in.  Nothing personal, just business of course.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> As I've mentioned earlier, my particular DV had very little hum in totally stock form.  It was there, but very low in level and not at all intrusive once the music started.  I rolled quite a few tubes through it (both driver and power) and the hum was about the same -- there, but barely audible.  Then I stuck in a Foton (6N8S), and oh crap.  _Very _loud buzzing in both channels in addition to a much higher level (like 10x) of background hum.  This was a well used 1953 with fully resoldered pins, and the noise was the "turn off the amp quick before she blows!" kind of bad.  That same Foton is perfectly quiet in the Incubus, as it was in both the Schiit Lyr 3 and Vali 2.  Tried the '63 Melz you sent me after that -- slightly louder background hum than the earlier (non-Foton) tubes, but not bad and really not bad enough to even worry about.
> 
> Then I added the cathode bypass caps, and the Foton got quiet as a church mouse.  Was even thinking about asking to borrow Finnegan to come find the mouse, 'cause it was so quiet I couldn't even hear *it* (and my cats just eat and sleep...they'd have no idea what to do with a mouse ).  After adding those caps, I get a totally black background with some tube combos, and just a very slight background level with some others.  That same Foton and the graphite plate Chatham 6080 make a wonderful pairing for, you know, Manson and other excellent music.
> 
> What will be interesting is what happens once I get around to doing the mods @L0rdGwyn detailed, especially elevating the heaters.  My plan is to remove those caps once I do all that, and hopefully the hum will be gone without the need for them (as I have no doubt they are not contributing in a positive way to the overall sound quality of the amp).  They get rid of the hum, but there's no free lunch.  I got sidetracked working on a couple tube testers, so hope to get to the DV mods here shortly.


You are much farther along than me and yes I had God awful noise with Fotons and several Melz that are dead quiet in other amps. I am probably spoiled since I have done extensive work with my own Incubus to get it just where I want a tube amp, so any noise tends to bother me. I will listen to it more after I make changes. Mine will not resemble a DV when completed so it may not be fair to call it that after a certain point lol. Every time I think I am free to work on other things I get busy building amps, or bread boards, or tables or jewelry boxes or headphone stands. You are fortunate to get your DV extension built, whenever I have needed tubes you have been there if you had them, so I move some things up my priority list.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> How does Marilyn Manson qualify as excellent, music, or both?


I believe Bill said you were smart the other day; now you are really looking good as far as I am concerned lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just asking the question deems you unworthy of being in the club.  I might have to request @Mr Trev (Sergeant At Arms) discard your application before you even send it in.  Nothing personal, just business of course.


I am sure you and @Mr Trev came from good homes but somewhere along the line something must have happened to you guys. It is probably much too late to try to correct it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are much farther along than me and yes I had God awful noise with Fotons and several Melz that are dead quiet in other amps. I am probably spoiled since I have done extensive work with my own Incubus to get it just where I want a tube amp, so any noise tends to bother me. I will listen to it more after I make changes. Mine will not resemble a DV when completed so it may not be fair to call it that after a certain point lol. Every time I think I am free to work on other things I get busy building amps, or bread boards, or tables or jewelry boxes or headphone stands. You are fortunate to get your DV extension built, whenever I have needed tubes you have been there if you had them, so I move some things up my priority list.


Not to go further off-topic here, but how do you like those 6SN7W's in the Freya+?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am sure you and @Mr Trev came from good homes but somewhere along the line something must have happened to you guys. It is probably much too late to try to correct it.


I grew up in a cardboard box. But at least I had my own room.  It was named Kimberly-Clark IIRC...my sister's room was Paper Plates or something.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just asking the question deems you unworthy of being in the club.  I might have to request @Mr Trev (Sergeant At Arms) discard your application before you even send it in.  Nothing personal, just business of course.


Exclusion from the Mansonites is indeed an honour! The mere announcement, by you, is a 24-carat seal on the scroll of dismissal!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yes.  I'm pretty sure @Ripper2860 wrote some auto-search / auto-purchase program running on the dark web that scoops them up before any Ebay listing has the time to even upload.    It's an excellent sounding tube (IMO), but extremely rare.


It’s called ‘*m*y *e*lectronic *l*oading *z*one’...


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 18, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I am sure you and @Mr Trev came from good homes but somewhere along the line something must have happened to you guys. It is probably much too late to try to correct it..._if that were even possible.... _


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 18, 2021)

I have no such 'find/buy'  program. I attibute my finding of a '57 Melz solid plate 1578 to tenacity, patience, and being a generally good person for which good Karma played a role.   It was pretty much the result of a life spent being the opposite of  @bcowen .  😏


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I grew up in a cardboard box. But at least I had my own room.  It was named Kimberly-Clark IIRC...my sister's room was Paper Plates or something.


You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt

sorry. couldn't resist


----------



## Ripper2860

Love that skit.  😄


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not to go further off-topic here, but how do you like those 6SN7W's in the Freya+?


I do, I paired them with 6922 Hytrons.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt
> 
> sorry. couldn't resist


You keep forgetting about the 5-mile walk uphill (both ways) to the mill in bare feet in the snow.  We don't have snow here, so I only had the 5 mile uphill walk.  I *was* lucky!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do, I paired them with 6922 Hytrons.


6922's?  And you get on my case about sticking weird tubes in a 6SN7 socket?  LOL!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> I do, I paired them with 6922 Hytrons.


I would have thought 5692s.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You keep forgetting about the 5-mile walk uphill (both ways) to the mill in bare feet in the snow.  We don't have snow here, so I only had the 5 mile uphill walk.  I *was* lucky!


No, but you had those sharp pine needles all over the ground....and you were carrying, even then, @UntilThen’s golf clubs...


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 18, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I would have thought 5692s.


Me too....variants of 6SN7....I use these in a Woo WA6....(with Woo adapters)


----------



## bcowen (Apr 18, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> No, but you had those sharp pine needles all over the ground....and you were carrying, even then, @UntilThen ’s golf clubs...


Quite true.  Plus having to walk 1 of those miles through a lake. Each way.

But we got a NC BBQ sandwich every year for Thanksgiving, so life was pretty good overall.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I would have thought 5692s.



Yeah, you can see they're 5692's in the picture.  But I was unable to pass up the opportunity to nitpick.  Character flaw I suppose.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  Does Tom know you have a camera in his house?  😯


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, you can see they're 5692's in the picture.  But I was unable to pass up the opportunity to nitpick.  Character flaw I suppose.


I was busy when I answered, 5692’s lol. 6922’s do sound familiar though. Lol


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  Does Tom know you have a camera in his house?  😯


Damn snoop🙀


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> While this is true, the main point is comparing the GE 5998A to the Tung Sol 5998 regardless of amp. Could be good or bad based on the mating and synergy with the amp used regardless.


I highly doubt the GE 5998A could best the Tung Sol 5998 on any amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Guess I probably shouldn't say this, but this combo could be....no, I shouldn't say it.  End Game ? (just thinking out loud).  No, I won't say it.  At least for rock and metal, this combo is like incredible. Tung Sol 5998 and Hytron (no CBS) 7A4's.  The dynamic duo.  Or trio, whatever.  In fact, I just got an email form Marilyn Manson:  "Dude, that is like _freakin_' *awesome*!"  (I substituted "freakin'" just to be family friendly).
> 
> @Paladin79 I gave him your phone number for an Incubus. Hope you don't mind.  He'll probably want his in black though.


Hytron 7a4s..... Check... does it come with the drop dead gorgeous adapter?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2021)

Thanks again for Freya tubes Bill, now on to other projects.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


>


Depending on the track


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Really?  Very generous offer!  But I was only trying to extract information, nut hurt someone.  And what if I missed and hit Finnegan by mistake?  That would be a true tragedy.


The lightsaber is intended for the GE tube, probably @Paladin79 will need it once he's done testing, hopefully his hearing won't become impaired after that torture 🙏
And not sure Finnegan will take it well if the GE went his way lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Paying customers get walnut or maple or cherry. I even made a headphone stand as a gift to Ripper out of chestnut.


As if you are saying that non-paying customers does get the cardboard version 🤣🤣🤣
And I never thought you maybe a planar owner seeing the Hifiman


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> The lightsaber is intended for the GE tube, probably @Paladin79 will need it once he's done testing, hopefully his hearing won't become impaired after that torture 🙏
> And not sure Finnegan will take it well if the GE went his way lol


Finnegan seems smart enough that he probably wouldn't even try and play with it in fear of getting rabies or something.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am starting to like this two amp setup, and thanks I try to make all Incubi unique, yours is just way more unique than all the others lol.
> 
> Anyway I have the GE going head to head against a few other tubes, including Svetlana, RCA, Chatham, Bendix, et alia.
> 
> ...


Seems you went a notch lower from Tung Sol ☹


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  Does Tom know you have a camera in his house?  😯



He does now.   


But while you were sleeping:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-622#post-16302007


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought rolled up sheets of it that were to be used inside Corvettes, I want to say they are about 1/32 inch thick. I believe they even had adhesive backing. The end appearance on 1/8 inch aluminum worked out very well..
> 
> I used something more flexible when I had to bend around metal boxes for VU meters, this is just vinyl but I liked the look.


Hard to tell from real carbon fiber 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I tend to just use chemical reactions myself, much less strenuous.
> 
> Today though will be nine or ten coats of black lacquer, sanding with 1,000 grit in between coats. A 50 watt portable music system will be the end result. Bill mentioned a black amp and he can barely make a sentence without the word maple in it, so I decided to use both in my build. I ALWAYS pay attention to what Bill says. My maple inlays and end caps should really stand out.


Looks more like a piece of art rather than a music box 😍
Hope it will get the appropriate appreciation 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Wow. The last _direct_ reference to DV in this thread was in post # 9,345. What does that say about the DV?...


It says that the DV is a perfect product and everyone is very satisfied......Or it's beyond hope lol


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> It says that the DV is a perfect product and everyone is very satisfied......Or it's beyond hope lol


Still enjoying mine....


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> I have some tubes that still have a small hum. But it's from the tube, not the amplifier.
> 
> For example, if I am using Chatham 6as7g and Gec L63 I can increase the volume to the maximum without music playing as the background remains completely black.
> 
> ...


Am also pretty sure it's the tube humming and not the amp itself as I swapped between tubes, but still the hum is negligible at my side. The highest impedance in the cans am using is 80 Ohms. Probably the 600 Ohms is helping in eliminating the humming. Ever tried a lower impedance cans ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ever try Fotons or Melz 6sn7 equivalents in yours?  I keep feeling that HTSkywalker might have been ok in his amp but they were awful in my DV so I did not send them to him.


To be frank, none of the tubes you sent me or the ones I acquired (Sylvania, RCA, Raytheon) were awful sounding or even not enjoyable. Definitely some are better than others but none were awful. Probably the 220V version or maybe the DV I got direct from China is the latest updated version or even the rice factor 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Very good choices, IMHO. I want to say my favorite Grey glass rca was a 1942 version, on the Svetlana it is 1955.


One of my preferred combination too, @Paladin79 can specify the manufacturing date of my tubes though (RCA Dark Glass & Svetlana Winged C)


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Still enjoying mine....


Me too and especially as a Pre-amp


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> You keep forgetting about the 5-mile walk uphill (both ways) to the mill in bare feet in the snow.  We don't have snow here, so I only had the 5 mile uphill walk.  I *was* lucky!


Why do I have the feeling that am listening to Hansel & Gretel and Cinderella stories 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I highly doubt the GE 5998A could best the Tung Sol 5998 on any amp.


We know that but we are giving the benefit of the doubt to all the Kamikaze pilots who took the dive lol


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> We know that but we are giving the benefit of the doubt to all the Kamikaze pilots who took the dive lol


LoL.. Banzai!!! I jumped in late on the convo, 😁


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Finnegan seems smart enough that he probably wouldn't even try and play with it in fear of getting rabies or something.


He would not want_ tube_rculosis...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Just received a good morning package 😍😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> As if you are saying that non-paying customers does get the cardboard version 🤣🤣🤣
> And I never thought you maybe a planar owner seeing the Hifiman


I have at least four pairs of planars, I do own some headphones you know. I mostly listen to Utopias and PM-1’s.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> We know that but we are giving the benefit of the doubt to all the Kamikaze pilots who took the dive lol


How can you know anything without experiencing it? Just because one tube type is not good does not make the whole product line bad. It is better to seek the answer than to guess at an outcome.  I often take bets with people who believe this or that about tubes or cables.My win  record is quite respectable.😁

I may work out a wager when I get some free time, if the GE is awful you should be able to choose it blind from say five quality tubes. A bet any of you should be able to easily win right? 😂😂😂 Anyone can SAY they think this or that, proving it is another matter. The GE could well be awful, as one gentleman (SHIMACM) stated but at least he listened and then formed an opinion.

Also I say once again, I am not trying to prove anything about a GE compared to any tube. In a blind listen you need other choices or you already know the answer. With 25 criteria, and a scoring system, you pay attention to every aspect of a tube.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> One of my preferred combination too, @Paladin79 can specify the manufacturing date of my tubes though (RCA Dark Glass & Svetlana Winged C)


The Svetlana date is to the right of the logo, it is most likely from the 70’s or 80’s, the RCA is tougher to date.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> How can you know anything without experiencing it? Just because one tube type is not good does not make the whole product bad. It is better to seek the answer than to guess at an outcome.  I often take bets with people who believe this or that about tubes or cables.My win  record is quite respectable.😁


Well I definitely trust your judgement 🙂
Just only realizing that you started comparing it to the RCA and the Winged C which I believe are children of lesser God IMHO compared to the Tung Sol 5998


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 19, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> The Svetlana date is to the right of the logo, it is most likely from the 70’s or 80’s, the RCA is tougher to date.


The Raytheon I received today is dated 1940 and highly praised by @bcowen
Tonight will test it in the DV
BTW did you try the Utopia with the stock BHC ? giving the 80 Ohms impedance


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well I definitely trust your judgement 🙂
> Just only realizing that you started comparing it to the RCA and the Winged C which I believe are children of lesser God IMHO compared to the Tung Sol 5998


I did not start by comparing to any other tubes. The sets of tubes are hidden, I rate the sets using the same driver tubes lol. I did several ratings and my friend mixed the other power tubes. Sorry work to do now.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> The Raytheon I received today is dated 1940 and highly praised by @bcowen
> Tonight will test it in the DV
> BTW did you try the Utopia with the stock BHC ? giving the 80 Ohms impedance


I did not own Utopias then, I used Sennheiser and other headphones 250 ohms or higher.

As I recall, as in most high voltage low current amps, the manufacturer stated 150 ohms up but it has been a while since I read that spec.


----------



## MacMan31

Is this a good deal for a Darkvoice? Price is in Canadian dollars. I have never had a tube amp before so I don't know anything about tube rolling and whatnot. My headphones right now are the HD6XX, 58X and ZMF Aeolus. 
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649686361-darkvoice-336se-w-upgraded-tubes-bundle/


----------



## HTSkywalker

MacMan31 said:


> Is this a good deal for a Darkvoice? Price is in Canadian dollars. I have never had a tube amp before so I don't know anything about tube rolling and whatnot. My headphones right now are the HD6XX, 58X and ZMF Aeolus.
> https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649686361-darkvoice-336se-w-upgraded-tubes-bundle/


Your headphones would do just great especially the ZMF Aeolus 👍
The asking price for the DV is insane though. You can order it directly from China for $309 with free DHL shipping
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/darkvoice-336se-headphone-tube-amplifier-otl-headphone-amplifier


----------



## MacMan31

HTSkywalker said:


> Your headphones would do just great especially the ZMF Aeolus 👍
> The asking price for the DV is insane though. You can order it directly from China for $309 with free DHL shipping
> https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/darkvoice-336se-headphone-tube-amplifier-otl-headphone-amplifier



Well keep in mind that price is in Canadian dollars plus the seller is including extra tubes. Also I find DHL to be a very poor quality shipping company. Plus if I can avoid giving China any money then that is a good thing for me.


----------



## HTSkywalker

MacMan31 said:


> Well keep in mind that price is in Canadian dollars plus the seller is including extra tubes. Also I find DHL to be a very poor quality shipping company. Plus if I can avoid giving China any money then that is a good thing for me.


Your money your choice, either way the amp is Chinese 🤷‍♂️ but the included tubes are fine but am totally against buying any kind of used electronic appliances in general.
my 2 cents


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> The Raytheon I received today is dated 1940 and highly praised by @bcowen
> Tonight will test it in the DV
> BTW did you try the Utopia with the stock BHC ? giving the 80 Ohms impedance


It's a great tube. Congrats.


----------



## Galapac

MacMan31 said:


> Well keep in mind that price is in Canadian dollars plus the seller is including extra tubes. Also I find DHL to be a very poor quality shipping company. Plus if I can avoid giving China any money then that is a good thing for me.


@MacMan31 - That is over $570 US dollars and is much to high, even with the included tubes, which still doesn’t justify the price.
If you wait you can get one on drop.com for $249 CAD and get your own tubes later as it comes with stock Chinese ones that everyone replaces anyway.
https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Well I definitely trust your judgement 🙂
> Just only realizing that you started comparing it to the RCA and the Winged C which I believe are children of lesser God IMHO compared to the Tung Sol 5998


Sorry I got busy and I probably added to the confusion about tests I did with power tubes.

Originally I was going to have my wife swap tubes so at first I considered two tubes with similar specs so she would not have to set gain. That was the only reason I considered a Tung Sol 5998 in one amp. They have the SAME GAIN.

A friend was free and wanted to get involved, he is a recording engineer and knows how to better set up the tubes. He could set the volume level of a 6AS7, 6080, 7236 so that it mirrored the volume level of the GE.

My tests consisted of a pair of scoring sheets with a number written at the top, 483  and 685 or some such. At no time did I know which power tubes I was hearing, the driver tubes stayed the same. At one point, no GE 5998A was in either amp, I was just scoring as my friend said this is 483 on test 1, this is 685 on test 1 etc. After scoring 25 criteria for two tubes, a different combination of power tubes was put in the amps. It could have been the GE and a Chatham, or a Chatham and a Tung Sol for all I knew.

After several rounds I was told then that 685, 431, 592, and 627 were the GE tube. This was as blind as I could make it with two amps.   My friend went through the same process with me controlling the tubes. We averaged our individual scores and then averaged his with mine. In the process other tubes were scored, he brought some of his own power tubes and I had several. We intend to find a matched quad of quality 6sn7's and try this again in four amps. He and I will not participate in that scoring, at least six others will. Expectation bias is eliminated, you never know if it is a GE tube you are listening to or an RCA or Tung Sol or a Sylvania. You merely score the sound you are hearing.  Down the road, because the setup is already in place we hope to do a large group test with power tubes just as we are doing with the top 52 6sn7's we can find.

This is not about comparisons although the final scores gave rankings to all tubes used. It is more about doing my best to not know when and if I am hearing a GE tube so I can rate it fairly.

I hope this helps lol By the time Ripper and Frank get their GE 5998a tubes I will have a numerical rating on a GE based on a decent size group of people hearing it. The driver tubes I used had a rating of 94, I am hoping I can find a matched quad that comes close to that score. Many friends have 1963 Melz tubes I got for them so hopefully four of those can be matched. They have a rating in our system of 93.

Tom


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I got busy and I probably added to the confusion about tests I did with power tubes.
> 
> Originally I was going to have my wife swap tubes so at first I considered two tubes with similar specs so she would not have to set gain. That was the only reason I considered a Tung Sol 5998 in one amp. They have the SAME GAIN.
> 
> ...


That is extensive blind testing 👍
Am sure the result is totally unbiased, let’s see the rest of the testing team results


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> It's a great tube. Congrats.


Thanks, will test it tonight paired with RCA 6AS7G, Sylvania Winged C and Svetlana 6080


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> Well keep in mind that price is in Canadian dollars plus the seller is including extra tubes. Also I find DHL to be a very poor quality shipping company. Plus if I can avoid giving China any money then that is a good thing for me.


As @HTSkywalker already mentioned, it's a Chinese amp so the money ends up in China one way or the other.

I agree as well with the other comments that the asking price is ridiculous.  A new amp (through Drop) is ~$250 CAD, and the tubes being offered with it can be bought (some new) for about the same amount in total.  So you'd be buying a used amp with used tubes for $220 CAD *MORE* than you could buy everything brand new.  If he was offering that "package" for about $400 CAD it would be a decent deal, but at the asking price it certainly isn't.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That is extensive blind testing 👍
> Am sure the result is totally unbiased, let’s see the rest of the testing team results


I will only share that info in PM to avoid arguments lol. I did the same thing with DAC tests my group ran. No one wants to hear that a $6,000 DAC scored lower than a $500 Delta Sigma.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks, will test it tonight paired with RCA 6AS7G, Sylvania Winged C and Svetlana 6080


The RCA would be a good place to start.  The Raytheon (to my ears) is not a laid back, soft sounding tube by any means. Plenty exciting with great dynamics and bass punch, but pairing it with a power tube on the warm(er) side of things might give the best result.  Of course your experience may differ (and maybe even substantially) -- that's just from my perspective.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will only share that info in PM to avoid arguments lol.


I disagree with that approach.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I disagree with that approach.


Pout if you like lol  

You above all people know the trouble I will go through to get objective answers about tubes. Some of it started with you and built momentum after that so much of this is your fault.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will only share that info in PM to avoid arguments lol. I did the same thing with DAC tests my group ran. No one wants to hear that a $6,000 DAC scored lower than a $500 Delta Sigma.


That’s the problem with our experience in associating elevated price tags with best of its class items. While it’s true for a big percentage, it build up an automatic psychological association which would affect our judgement.
A blind test would  eliminate this perception and pre judgement but as you said the results would be annoying to some owners.
Still am curious about that GE tube 😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The RCA would be a good place to start.  The Raytheon (to my ears) is not a laid back, soft sounding tube by any means. Plenty exciting with great dynamics and bass punch, but pairing it with a power tube on the warm(er) side of things might give the best result.  Of course your experience may differ (and maybe even substantially) -- that's just from my perspective.


RCA would be the first tube to test with 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I disagree with that approach.


Am sure you will enjoy a good forum fight 😜😜😜 especially with @Paladin79 involved and you enjoying with a pop corn bucket


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That’s the problem with our experience in associating elevated price tags with best of its class items. While it’s true for a big percentage, it build up an automatic psychological association which would affect our judgement.
> A blind test would  eliminate this perception and pre judgement but as you said the results would be annoying to some owners.
> Still am curious about that GE tube 😛


Imagine you bought a tube for $1,000 to $2,000, we have some in our group of 52. Can you think about it the exact same way as you do a $35 tube? Both are near the top in blind tests. I am talking 6SN7 equivalents. Now you hear people talk about this or that brand being crap, expectation bias kicks in again.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Pout if you like lol


That would require effort.  Think I'll take a nap instead.    

Actually, this is my project today.  When I'm done it's either going to work, or I'm gonna be borrowing @Mr Trev 's ball peen hammer.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> That would require effort.  Think I'll take a nap instead.
> 
> Actually, this is my project today.  When I'm done it's either going to work, or I'm gonna be borrowing @Mr Trev 's ball peen hammer.


It looks like a plate of spaghetti...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That would require effort.  Think I'll take a nap instead.
> 
> Actually, this is my project today.  When I'm done it's either going to work, or I'm gonna be borrowing @Mr Trev 's ball peen hammer.


My project The start of a portable music system.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> That would require effort.  Think I'll take a nap instead.
> 
> Actually, this is my project today.  When I'm done it's either going to work, or I'm gonna be borrowing @Mr Trev 's ball peen hammer.


Why are you attacking a tube tester? Save your effort with the hammer and send it to me!


----------



## Galapac (Apr 19, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Why are you attacking a tube tester? Save your effort with the hammer and send it to me!


@bcowen - Is that another tube tester? You have a gift as that looks like a hot mess to me. The christmas bulb is interesting. Is that for back lighting?
Also, I didn't know a tube tester also used tubes in its design...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Imagine you bought a tube for $1,000 to $2,000, we have some in our group of 52. Can you think about it the exact same way as you do a $35 tube? Both are near the top in blind tests. I am talking 6SN7 equivalents. Now you hear people talk about this or that brand being crap, expectation bias kicks in again.


PM me the $35 6SN7 tube which outperformed the 2,000 one, will be our secret


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That would require effort.  Think I'll take a nap instead.
> 
> Actually, this is my project today.  When I'm done it's either going to work, or I'm gonna be borrowing @Mr Trev 's ball peen hammer.


Very neat indeed 😆😆
Takes advanced Autocad skills to do the technical drawing 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My project The start of a portable music system.


The paint job looks awesome


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> PM me the $35 6SN7 tube which outperformed the 2,000 one, will be our secret


Pay attention, lol I have talked about them more than once.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My project The start of a portable music system.


No ball-peen finish, or finishing off, here!


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> No ball-peen finish, or finishing off, here!


These are the early stages, but at least all openings are cut. Now I work on maple end caps that will house the three way speakers.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> These are the early stages, but at least all openings are cut. Now I work on maple end caps that will house the three way speakers.


Those I can visualise to be stunning. [ I can also visualise @bcowen rooting for the caps, the speakers, the speaker cones, the speaker coils to all be of maple... ]


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - Is that another tube tester? You have a gift as that looks like a hot mess to me. The christmas bulb is interesting. Is that for back lighting?
> Also, I didn't know a tube tester also used tubes in its design...


 My new Cowen approved tester and my tubes.





bcowen said:


> Guess I probably shouldn't say this, but this combo could be....no, I shouldn't say it.  End Game ? (just thinking out loud).  No, I won't say it.  At least for rock and metal, this combo is like incredible. Tung Sol 5998 and Hytron (no CBS) 7A4's.  The dynamic duo.  Or trio, whatever.  In fact, I just got an email form Marilyn Manson:  "Dude, that is like _freakin_' *awesome*!"  (I substituted "freakin'" just to be family friendly).
> 
> @Paladin79 I gave him your phone number for an Incubus. Hope you don't mind.  He'll probably want his in black though.


I still haven’t been able to find a pair of those rare Hytrons. I thought I’d be able to find another brand but now I forget their plate structure. Ha. I have your photos of the plates somewhere.. But also the 7A4s can be hard to capture due to the top flashing. Loctals can be still be a great bargain though, especially when you get them for free. @JKDJedi sent me some of the best sounding 7N7s I own (tall bottle, oval micas).


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Those I can visualise to be stunning. [ I can also visualise @bcowen rooting for the caps, the speakers, the speaker cones, the speaker coils to all be of maple... ]


One learns to take whatever Bill says and divide it by four lol. All other wood in my wife's pottery shed is maple so parts of the speaker system will be as well lol.

I built a combination table/bench early Saturday. Curly maple.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> It looks like a plate of spaghetti...


Hopefully it's a _working_ plate of spaghetti when I'm finished.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 19, 2021)

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - Is that another tube tester? You have a gift as that looks like a hot mess to me. The christmas bulb is interesting. Is that for back lighting?
> Also, I didn't know a tube tester also used tubes in its design...


Yup, a Hickok 752 in really nice condition.  Most all of these vintage Hickoks use an 83 and a 5Y3GT as rectifier tubes.  And the Christmas tree light is for illuminating the roll chart. That's actually an original bulb, just looks kind of funny given the vintage of the tester (I always remove the roll chart prior to working on the guts to avoid possible tearing or damage and reinstall it when I'm done).


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> My new Cowen approved tester and my tubes.
> 
> 
> Loctals can be still be a great bargain though, especially when you get them for free. @JKDJedi sent me some of the best sounding 7N7s I own (tall bottle, oval micas).



Ye Olde Frankentube.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Why are you attacking a tube tester? Save your effort with the hammer and send it to me!


This particular tester and I have a history.  Had it all cleaned up and about ready to go when on the final tube check (that I always do) I was suddenly getting no meter reading on the GM test.  The meter is good, I'm getting proper test voltages to the sockets, GM button is working properly, etc etc and...GRRRRRRR.  I suspect it's in the rotary control for the shorts/test function -- there must be a wiper or contact that is either broken or not making good contact. Took me a while to find a cheap donor machine to rob this control out of as the 752 and 752A are the only Hickok testers that have a 7 position switch for this function (all the others are 6 position).  Strangely, neither Mouser or DigiKey had any in stock.  LOL!!  This will be a really sweet machine assuming I can find and fix the problem.


----------



## sam6550a

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - Is that another tube tester? You have a gift as that looks like a hot mess to me. The christmas bulb is interesting. Is that for back lighting?
> Also, I didn't know a tube tester also used tubes in its design...


The incandescent lamp is in the signal circuit for the bias on gain tests. The large tube is a rectifier, the small tube probably an amplifier.


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> Very neat indeed 😆😆
> Takes advanced Autocad skills to do the technical drawing 😂😂😂


Or a pencil, a quad pad, and good eyesight!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> The incandescent lamp is in the signal circuit for the bias on gain tests. The large tube is a rectifier, the small tube probably an amplifier.


That is true with many B&K testers (the lamp)....as far as I know it is only for backlighting the roll chart in the 752's.  The 83 and 5Y3GT are both full wave rectifiers in the Hickoks, but the B&K's use a tube like a 6BN8 that has both diodes and a triode combined in one tube which would serve as an amplifier as well as a rectifier.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Pay attention, lol I have talked about them more than once.


Now I have to go through the whole Thread again and do statistics 😥😥
while a PM would save me the hassle


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Now I have to go through the whole Thread again and do statistics 😥😥
> while a PM would save me the hassle


Ok a PM is on the way.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Now I have to go through the whole Thread again and do statistics 😥😥
> while a PM would save me the hassle


Hint:  it's 4 letters and the first letter is M.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Hopefully it's a _working_ plate of spaghetti when I'm finished.


One thing am sure of, no one can clone this design 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Hint:  it's 4 letters and the first letter is M.


And the last is Z


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> This particular tester and I have a history.  Had it all cleaned up and about ready to go when on the final tube check (that I always do) I was suddenly getting no meter reading on the GM test.  The meter is good, I'm getting proper test voltages to the sockets, GM button is working properly, etc etc and...GRRRRRRR.  I suspect it's in the rotary control for the shorts/test function -- there must be a wiper or contact that is either broken or not making good contact. Took me a while to find a cheap donor machine to rob this control out of as the 752 and 752A are the only Hickok testers that have a 7 position switch for this function (all the others are 6 position).  Strangely, neither Mouser or DigiKey had any in stock.  LOL!!  This will be a really sweet machine assuming I can find and fix the problem.


You say 7 position, how many poles?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hint:  it's 4 letters and the first letter is M.


I have mentioned them nearly as often as Bill mentions maple lol. I will not sell any of them and their balance and clarity top to bottom made them my choice when listening to power tubes. Next choice is a 63 Melz 1578.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> You say 7 position, how many poles?



Um, lots?     Not trying to be a smart-ass, just that it's a very complicated control with several resistors buried within.  I'll start by peeling this one down layer by layer to see if anything stands out (there are discs and wiper/contacts on both sides of each of the mica pieces).  If nothing becomes evident, I'll replace it with the control from the donor machine.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> And the last is Z


Well, you're halfway there now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yup, a Hickok 752 in really nice condition.  Most all of these vintage Hickoks use an 83 and a 5Y3GT as rectifier tubes.  And the Christmas tree light is for illuminating the roll chart. That's actually an original bulb, just looks kind of funny given the vintage of the tester (I always remove the roll chart prior to working on the guts to avoid possible tearing or damage and reinstall it when I'm done).
> 
> That's a treasure of a vintage piece


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, you're halfway there now.


Now allow about six months to find one.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> The RCA would be a good place to start.  The Raytheon (to my ears) is not a laid back, soft sounding tube by any means. Plenty exciting with great dynamics and bass punch, but pairing it with a power tube on the warm(er) side of things might give the best result.  Of course your experience may differ (and maybe even substantially) -- that's just from my perspective.


Well just took the Raytheon for a short spin and it's a hell of a tube with pronounced bass and a good attack, mostly suited for rock.
Bad news is, where most tubes I have introduce a slight hum around 11 increasing with the volume, the Raytheon have a Buzz mostly on the left side which is present regardless of the volume setting. Still not a show stopper but it would have been near perfect without it.
Tried brushing the pins and cleaning them but still. Overall I don't regret it.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hint:  it's 4 letters and the first letter is M.


It’s Mine !  😆😆


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Well just took the Raytheon for a short spin and it's a hell of a tube with pronounced bass and a good attack, mostly suited for rock.
> Bad news is, where most tubes I have introduce a slight hum around 11 increasing with the volume, the Raytheon have a Buzz mostly on the left side which is present regardless of the volume setting. Still not a show stopper but it would have been near perfect without it.
> Tried brushing the pins and cleaning them but still. Overall I don't regret it.


Can you solder?  Re-soldering the pins may fix that.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Well just took the Raytheon for a short spin and it's a hell of a tube with pronounced bass and a good attack, mostly suited for rock.
> Bad news is, where most tubes I have introduce a slight hum around 11 increasing with the volume, the Raytheon have a Buzz mostly on the left side which is present regardless of the volume setting. Still not a show stopper but it would have been near perfect without it.
> Tried brushing the pins and cleaning them but still. Overall I don't regret it.


Hopefully it'll be gone after some use, (48 Hours)?


----------



## HTSkywalker

So


bcowen said:


> Can you solder?  Re-soldering the pins may fix that.


 Will give it a 48 hours of burning-In period and if still the buzz persist, re-solder.
Started searching the threads for re-soldering already 🧐🧐


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> So
> 
> Will give it a 48 hours of burning-In period and if still the buzz persist, re-solder.
> Started searching the threads for re-soldering already 🧐🧐


I quick (not so popular) trick is to just heat the pins to reflow the solder. It's frowned upon as the solder is probably past it's prime but none of the less a quicky fix sometimes.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 20, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I quick (not so popular) trick is to just heat the pins to reflow the solder. It's frowned upon as the solder is probably past it's prime but none of the less a quicky fix sometimes.


Thanks that was the first Quick solution I saw too, just heating the pins for 30-45 seconds to let the solder flow. Others go to the length of introducing more solder after heating the pin tip if the first solution does not solve it.
Also came across @Paladin79 way of doing it while searching the threads  
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-139#post-14881498


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks that was the first Quick solution I saw too, just heating the pins for 30-45 seconds to let the solder flow. Others go to the length of introducing more solder after heating the pin tip if the first solution does not solve it.


Removing the old entirely is best before adding the new.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 20, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Removing the old entirely is best before adding the new.


Will try the easy way first as you mentioned and see if it will solve it.
Hitting the workshop 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 20, 2021)

And.....the re-soldering trick worked like a charm. 👍👍👍 used a combination of heating the pins, emptying some of the old solder and re filling it with RS Pro solder.
The crocodile heat sink trick by @Paladin79 as well lol.
Now the Raytheon is dead silent regardless of volume, no humming or buzzing and music flowing beautifully 😍😍
Thanks @JKDJedi, @bcowen and @Paladin79


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> And.....the re-soldering trick worked like a charm. 👍👍👍 used a combination of heating the pins, emptying some of the old solder and re filling it with RS Pro solder.
> The crocodile heat sink trick by @Paladin79 as well lol.
> Now the Raytheon is dead silent regardless of volume, no humming or buzzing and music flowing beautifully 😍😍
> Thanks @JKDJedi, @bcowen and @Paladin79


I am glad you fixed it, I usually replace solder in Russian tubes but I have done the same in Tung Sol 5998's as well as I find more and more with issues.


----------



## sam6550a

JKDJedi said:


> Removing the old entirely is best before adding the new.


If you have access to a Hakko FR301 desoldering tool, it works very well in extracting old solder from octal tube pins. After removing the old solder, I use a hypodermic syringe and needle to inject a little Kester liquid rosin flux into the pin before resoldering. Other than these deviations, I follow paladin79s process.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> If you have access to a Hakko FR301 desoldering tool, it works very well in extracting old solder from octal tube pins. After removing the old solder, I use a hypodermic syringe and needle to inject a little Kester liquid rosin flux into the pin before resoldering. Other than these deviations, I follow paladin79s process.


That Hakko looks sweet.  I may have to spring for one in the near future as the pin solder problems are surely not going to get better in time with these NOS tubes.  First it just seemed to be an issue with Fotons.  Then Melz (although much less frequently it seems). At this point, I've had to do 5 Tung Sols and 2 Sylvanias as well that had buzzing or bad hum until the pins were re-done.  Now we have a Raytheon?  Perhaps 60+ years is hitting the limits of the solder used back then regardless of who made the tube.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That Hakko looks sweet.  I may have to spring for one in the near future as the pin solder problems are surely not going to get better in time with these NOS tubes.  First it just seemed to be an issue with Fotons.  Then Melz (although much less frequently it seems). At this point, I've had to do 5 Tung Sols and 2 Sylvanias as well that had buzzing or bad hum until the pins were re-done.  Now we have a Raytheon?  Perhaps 60+ years is hitting the limits of the solder used back then regardless of who made the tube.


It is like materials used in plumbing, the life expectancy is not known till you get to that point. Copper maybe 50 years or more but the last I heard, the jury is still out on PVC.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> If you have access to a Hakko FR301 desoldering tool, it works very well in extracting old solder from octal tube pins. After removing the old solder, I use a hypodermic syringe and needle to inject a little Kester liquid rosin flux into the pin before resoldering. Other than these deviations, I follow paladin79s process.


I should shop for hypodermic syringes, I am always using a strait pick that is very sharp and tiny to place a drop of liquid rosin in each pin, Kester of course, as well as Kester solder with a tiny amount of silver. I do use .020" diameter solder so it fits easily inside the pins.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should shop for hypodermic syringes...


Just take a quick trip down to @Ripper2860 's house.  Probably an ample supply laying around in the yard....


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  My home is a registered Pfizer vaccine center.  Just waiting on the biohazard pickup.  Doing what I can to get things back to normal.  

I've sent the used needles to you, as requested.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I've sent the used needles to you, as requested.


Thanks!  I have a whole tub full of Fotons to resolder.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just take a quick trip down to @Ripper2860 's house.  Probably an ample supply laying around in the yard....


Or just stroll down the NJ shoreline...


----------



## Paladin79

Several of us have tried the GE 5998A and we are waiting to work something out but so far a few of us share similar opinions.   Hopefully by next week or the week after we will share them.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Several of us have tried the GE 5998A and we are waiting to work something out but so far a few of us share similar opinions.   Hopefully by next week or the week after we will share them.


Normally with  GE tubes, impressions are unilateral 😊. Saying “a few of us share similar opinions “ sound promising.......or not lol


----------



## jonathan c

A note of gratitude with post 1,000.  While I do not own a DV, I want to use _this_ thread to say THANK YOU ALL readers of and contributors to this thread - and others (LP, 6SN7, 6J5 + more). WHY? For the experience and knowledge that you have shared with me, the many instances of hilarity, the camaraderie, the patience with my errant contemplations. I would be honoured to meet any of you in person - a postCOVID ‘bucket’ item?....In the meantime, I always look forward to logging on. 🙏


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> A note of gratitude with post 1,000.  While I do not own a DV, I want to use _this_ thread to say THANK YOU ALL readers of and contributors to this thread - and others (LP, 6SN7, 6J5 + more). WHY? For the experience and knowledge that you have shared with me, the many instances of hilarity, the camaraderie, the patience with my errant contemplations. I would be honoured to meet any of you in person - a postCOVID ‘bucket’ item?....In the meantime, I always look forward to logging on. 🙏


We dub thee Headphoneus Supremus....


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> We dub thee Headphoneus Supremus....


👍 in spirit, the title at 1500? The HeadFi-ing is rollicking anyway in between...


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> A note of gratitude with post 1,000.  While I do not own a DV, I want to use _this_ thread to say THANK YOU ALL readers of and contributors to this thread - and others (LP, 6SN7, 6J5 + more). WHY? For the experience and knowledge that you have shared with me, the many instances of hilarity, the camaraderie, the patience with my errant contemplations. I would be honoured to meet any of you in person - a postCOVID ‘bucket’ item?....In the meantime, I always look forward to logging on. 🙏


Does that means I also have to prepare a speech shortly 😜
@jonathan c YOU ROCK man ❤️


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> 👍 in spirit, the title at 1500? The HeadFi-ing is rollicking anyway in between...


Jinx! Aww crap...sorry man I thought it was at 1000, with the nice speech and all..


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Does that means I also have to prepare a speech shortly 😜
> @jonathan c YOU ROCK man ❤️


If your speech is 44 words long and you post each word individually, you can finish it at 1K.🤪


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> Jinx! Aww crap...sorry man I thought it was at 1000, with the nice speech and all..


It’s ok; think of it like putting in a 12au7 where a 6922 is needed....🤷🏻‍♂️🤞😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> If your speech is 44 words long and you post each word individually, you can finish it at 1K.🤪


O


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> O


K


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> K


🤪🤪
3 steps closer lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Normally with  GE tubes, impressions are unilateral 😊. Saying “a few of us share similar opinions “ sound promising.......or not lol


Impressions are multilateral when a group is involved, I am merely collecting opinions. We ran into a slight snag that I hope to resolve later this week and one gentleman needs more listening time. Today I drop off my tube so six others can score it using the same system I use so when all is done at least eleven people will have heard the GE 5998A, and I may be able to shed some light on the results one gentleman on here achieved.    Good or bad there will be an honest appraisal.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> A note of gratitude with post 1,000.  While I do not own a DV, I want to use _this_ thread to say THANK YOU ALL readers of and contributors to this thread - and others (LP, 6SN7, 6J5 + more). WHY? For the experience and knowledge that you have shared with me, the many instances of hilarity, the camaraderie, the patience with my errant contemplations. I would be honoured to meet any of you in person - a postCOVID ‘bucket’ item?....In the meantime, I always look forward to logging on. 🙏


You are a good man and obviously very bright. It is always a pleasure to talk to you.  I suspect you are farther north but my wife and I drive pretty close to Falling Water on the way to the D.C. area, we are big fans of the work of Frank Lloyd Wright.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You are a good man and obviously very bright. It is always a pleasure to talk to you.  I suspect you are farther north but my wife and I drive pretty close to Falling Water on the way to the D.C. area, we are big fans of the work of Frank Lloyd Wright.


55-60 miles north of Ohiopyle.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Impressions are multilateral when a group is involved, I am merely collecting opinions. We ran into a slight snag that I hope to resolve later this week and one gentleman needs more listening time. Today I drop off my tube so six others can score it using the same system I use so when all is done at least eleven people will have heard the GE 5998A, and I may be able to shed some light on the results one gentleman on here achieved.    Good or bad there will be an honest appraisal.


This is extensive testing 😊
Anyway checking on the remaining stock of the tube should say something 😜


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> This is extensive testing 😊
> Anyway checking on the remaining stock of the tube should say something 😜


There you go, keep checking. Of course with a few of us buying them it may cause other sellers to think they are a hot item so more could be listed.    I expect @bcowen to fold like a cheap suit and buy a bunch any minute. (the mixing of metaphors was intentional.)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There you go, keep checking. Of course with a few of us buying them it may cause other sellers to think they are a hot item so more could be listed.    I expect @bcowen to fold like a cheap suit and buy a bunch any minute. (the mixing of metaphors was intentional.)


Or maybe the price will start climbing if the seller only have limited stock.
@bcowen  may have ordered already with all the suspense around 😊
I may do too in fact lol
I know an old story about a person who like to invent rumors:
One day he told people that there is a shortage in bread supplies so everyone went to the bakery to get bread. Only when he saw the huge gathering of people in front of the bakery , he rushed to buy as well fearing that there will be shortage after this rush 🤪🤪🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There you go, keep checking. Of course with a few of us buying them it may cause other sellers to think they are a hot item so more could be listed.    I expect @bcowen to fold like a cheap suit and buy a bunch any minute. (the mixing of metaphors was intentional.)


So you're assuming I'll succumb to FOMO?   You're probably right, except it will be *F*ear *O*f *M*usically *O*ffensive tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> There you go, keep checking. Of course with a few of us buying them it may cause other sellers to think they are a hot item so more could be listed.   I expect @bcowen to fold like a cheap suit _(or a bad hand at ‘Old Maid’) _and buy a bunch any minute. (the mixing of metaphors was intentional.)


bcowen——?——> bangyben ...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> So you're assuming I'll succumb to FOMO?   You're probably right, except it will be *F*ear *O*f *M*usically *O*ffensive tubes.


FOMO =  *F*or *O*ptimising *M*y *O*utcome ...


----------



## Paladin79

Up to this point 7 or 8 of my amps are being used for testing but there were Issues with a couple of the tubes in one amp. It may be some have solder issues or it could be the amp I built. Just remember even Tung Sol 5998’s can have solder issues. What if you bought one of those and a channel dropped out or it had a loud hum and had not read the history about pins and solder. You would be thinking the seller ripped you off or those tubes were crap. I want to figure this out since it could slew the results.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Or maybe the price will start climbing if the seller only have limited stock.
> @bcowen  may have ordered already with all the suspense around 😊
> I may do too in fact lol
> I know an old story about a person who like to invent rumors:
> One day he told people that there is a shortage in bread supplies so everyone went to the bakery to get bread. Only when he saw the huge gathering of people in front of the bakery , he rushed to buy as well fearing that there will be shortage after this rush 🤪🤪🤪


That's errily similar to a toilet paper shortage in the U.S last year...people saw others buying up toilet paper...so they had to too. Then it became an issue when you ran out because you couldn't find any...the human psyche


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Up to this point 7 or 8 of my amps are being used for testing but there were Issues with a couple of the tubes in one amp. It may be some have solder issues or it could be the amp I built. Just remember even Tung Sol 5998’s can have solder issues. What if you bought one of those and a channel dropped out or it had a loud hum and had not read the history about pins and solder. You would be thinking the seller ripped you off or those tubes were crap. I want to figure this out since it could slew the results.


Send it my way 😊 I liked the re-soldering business and maybe I will re-solder all my tubes lol


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

Galapac said:


> That's errily similar to a toilet paper shortage in the U.S last year...people saw others buying up toilet paper...so they had to too. Then it became an issue when you ran out because you couldn't find any...the human psyche


Have to admit that my wife contributed in this shortage as well by stocking endless roles 😍
Glad there’s no expiry date


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> That's errily similar to a toilet paper shortage in the U.S last year...people saw others buying up toilet paper...so they had to too. Then it became an issue when you ran out because you couldn't find any...the human psyche


Just remember I saw the tubes for sale and wondered about them. I have no interest in driving prices up or down. I am not associated with any seller nor would I sell them myself. A few gents offered to buy some and then I bought one myself. I was told years ago that GE power tubes were pretty decent so I am gathering some opinions and trying to be objective in my tests.😎


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 21, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Send it my way 😊 I liked the re-soldering business and maybe I will re-solder all my tubes lol


Sure thing, I am sure those interested would love to add a couple months to the wait time.😜

In Mr. Cowen’s case I believe FOMO means Foaming Of the Mouth on Occasion.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Just remember I saw the tubes for sale and wondered about them. I have no interest in driving prices up or down. I am not associated with any seller nor would I sell them myself. A few gents offered to buy some and then I bought one myself. I was told years ago that GE power tubes were pretty decent so I am gathering some opinions and trying to be objective in my tests.😎


That’s one exciting side of this hobby in fact. Imagine just having a good boring SS amp and missing on all the tube fun


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Sure thing, I am sure those interested would love to add a couple months to the wait time.😜


This will add one more visited continent  on the tube CV 😊


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> This will add one more visited continent  on the tube CV 😊


I gave you some tubes, be happy and go forth and prosper.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I gave you some tubes, be happy and go forth and prosper.


In fact a very prosperous business indeed 🤪🤪🤪 lol
In fact I saw 2 old TV sets at my grandparents house 1 is Metz and another is Saba, am planning to attack and extract all tubes 😊😊
Mostly Valvo tubes


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 21, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> That’s one exciting side of this hobby in fact. Imagine just having a good boring SS amp and missing on all the tube fun


One curiosity, which can be followed on the “Headphone Amplifiers (full size)” forum for Burson Audio, is the rolling of op-amps for altering sonic flavour. Adherents swear by this activity. As for me - though a novice - tubes have history, interesting appearance and design, with a variety of sonic characteristics. AND I like cleaning pins & sockets. The rewards: great sound and THE GLOW.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact a very prosperous business indeed 🤪🤪🤪 lol


Gimme the tubes, I’ll sell them to rubes....


----------



## HTSkywalker

Is the Drop 6XX rated at 300 Ohms any good with the DV ? it's only $220 but don't want to get it and realize later that it's vastly inferior to the Elear
And don't ask me if I need a new cans, I probably not unless I order the Utopia or maybe the Arya 😃


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the Drop 6XX rated at 300 Ohms any good with the DV ? it's only $220 but don't want to get it and realize later that it's vastly inferior to the Elear
> And don't ask me if I need a new cans, I probably not unless I order the Utopia or maybe the Arya 😃


Yes, the HD6XX has always been considered a perfect match to the Darkvoice. However I don’t find myself using mine at all once I got the Beyerdynamic DT-1990 with new pads. If you want a used pair let me know.


----------



## SHIMACM

I just bought a perforated plate Melz from the year 1959.

Does anyone know how it compares to the perforated plate of 1969?


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I just bought a perforated plate Melz from the year 1959.
> 
> Does anyone know how it compares to the perforated plate of 1969?


I would describe it as a more balanced tube top to bottom. The mids are slightly more out front on the 69 as I recall. If I have time later I can A/B them since I happen to have two identical amps set up and I own those Melz.😀


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the Drop 6XX rated at 300 Ohms any good with the DV ? it's only $220 but don't want to get it and realize later that it's vastly inferior to the Elear
> And don't ask me if I need a new cans, I probably not unless I order the Utopia or maybe the Arya 😃


The Drop HD-6XX is a very synergistic match with the DV.  However, it's not realistic to compare ~$1k (USD) 'phones (Elear) with $250 'phones (HD-6XX) and expect a level playing field.    I have not heard the Elears (or the Beyer's that @therremans speaks of) so can't offer any direct comparisons.  The 300 ohm impedance of the HD-6XX's is a better match for the DV than the 80 ohm impedance of the Elears, so that helps.  But I don't think the Elears will suddenly start collecting dust on the headphone stand if you get the HD-6XX's.  You might find the HD-6XX's quite enjoyable, but "better" or more accomplished than the Elears?  Rather unlikely, IMO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The Drop HD-6XX is a very synergistic match with the DV.  However, it's not realistic to compare ~$1k (USD) 'phones (Elear) with $250 'phones (HD-6XX) and expect a level playing field.   I have not heard the Elears (or the Beyer's that @therremans speaks of) so can't offer any direct comparisons.  The 300 ohm impedance of the HD-6XX's is a better match for the DV than the 80 ohm impedance of the Elears, so that helps.  But I don't think the Elears will suddenly start collecting dust on the headphone stand if you get the HD-6XX's.  You might find the HD-6XX's quite enjoyable, but "better" or more accomplished than the Elears?  Rather unlikely, IMO.


Point proven Case closed 😊
Re-calibrating the bullseye 🎯 on a new target


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> The Drop HD-6XX is a very synergistic match with the DV.  However, it's not realistic to compare ~$1k (USD) 'phones (Elear) with $250 'phones (HD-6XX) and expect a level playing field.   I have not heard the Elears (or the Beyer's that @therremans speaks of) so can't offer any direct comparisons.  The 300 ohm impedance of the HD-6XX's is a better match for the DV than the 80 ohm impedance of the Elears, so that helps.  But I don't think the Elears will suddenly start collecting dust on the headphone stand if you get the HD-6XX's.  You might find the HD-6XX's quite enjoyable, but "better" or more accomplished than the Elears?  Rather unlikely, IMO.


In fact I have no complaints on the Elear as I chose it over the HD800 back then based on thorough comparison. it’s the buying rush mostly. Am sure most of this forum participants understand this nasty addiction 😂


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact I have no complaints on the Elear, it’s the buying rush mostly. Am sure most of this forum participants understand this nasty addiction 😂


Audio addiction?  You're in the wrong forum, dude.  None of us have that issue here.   

I have a pair of ZMF's on order.  Probably be another few weeks before they arrive, but they're a 300 ohm impedance like the 6XX's so I'll be able to get a better handle on what a more "accomplished" high impedance headphone can offer once they arrive.


----------



## therremans

Great dynamic drivers for the price. I do not have hands on experience with headphones in that $1k plus range but can accurately describe the HD6XX as being warm, neutral and in your face. It is like having your head inside a speaker cabinet, sound stage is minimal. They are extremely comfortable, lightweight and play well with tubes. High frequencies will be rolled back so if you love those crisp highs, these are not it. However, I wouldn't say they are dull as the high notes are there but smoothly delivered. They are warm and wooly. They tend to favor jazz imo, but it depends on the tubes you use. They can sound great with rock, but again.. you're not going to have the crisp detailed high end but you do get a wonderful mid range. Right now I am enjoying them with a Chatham 6AS7G and Brimar 6SN7GT. A fine combination.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Audio addiction?  You're in the wrong forum, dude.  None of us have that issue here.
> 
> I have a pair of ZMF's on order.  Probably be another few weeks before they arrive, but they're a 300 ohm impedance like the 6XX's so I'll be able to get a better handle on what a more "accomplished" high impedance headphone can offer once they arrive.


Aeolus ?? 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Great dynamic drivers for the price. I do not have hands on experience with headphones in that $1k plus range but can accurately describe the HD6XX as being warm, neutral and in your face. It is like having your head inside a speaker cabinet, sound stage is minimal. They are extremely comfortable, lightweight and play well with tubes. High frequencies will be rolled back so if you love those crisp highs, these are not it. However, I wouldn't say they are dull as the high notes are there but smoothly delivered. They are warm and wooly. They tend to favor jazz imo, but it depends on the tubes you use. They can sound great with rock, but again.. you're not going to have the crisp detailed high end but you do get a wonderful mid range. Right now I am enjoying them with a Chatham 6AS7G and Brimar 6SN7GT. A fine combination.


A fine tube combination indeed 👍


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Great dynamic drivers for the price. I do not have hands on experience with headphones in that $1k plus range but can accurately describe the HD6XX as being warm, neutral and in your face. It is like having your head inside a speaker cabinet, sound stage is minimal. They are extremely comfortable, lightweight and play well with tubes. High frequencies will be rolled back so if you love those crisp highs, these are not it. However, I wouldn't say they are dull as the high notes are there but smoothly delivered. They are warm and wooly. They tend to favor jazz imo, but it depends on the tubes you use. They can sound great with rock, but again.. you're not going to have the crisp detailed high end but you do get a wonderful mid range. Right now I am enjoying them with a Chatham 6AS7G and Brimar 6SN7GT. A fine combination.


If you happened to make the headphone cable, very nice work.  The heat shrink at the split helps keeps all twists the same. I might have had some experience with such things.   I am in the process of bidding on a couple bottom getter Chatham's, very fine tubes IMHO.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Aeolus ?? 😍😍


No, the Atticus.  I needed a closed-back design for, um, domestic considerations.  I wear the pants in my house, but my wife wears the voice. And her voice is louder than my pants.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If you happened to make the headphone cable, very nice work.  The heat shrink at the split helps keeps all twists the same. I might have had some experience with such things.   I am in the process of bidding on a couple bottom getter Chatham's, very fine tubes IMHO.


Yes, the cable makes a big difference.  The stock one is crap.  I had a very nice gentleman here braid one together for me out of some good Neotech (copper) wire, and it made a big difference.  The pads make a big difference too....I use the hybrid velour pads that are much more spacious and less closed-in sounding than the stock felt pads.  They give up a little crunch in the bass, but improve on most every other aspect of the sound (to my ears).


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I am in the process of bidding on a couple bottom getter Chatham's, very fine tubes IMHO.


They are very good indeed.  My fav 6AS7G and better than the top getter Chatham 6AS7G, IMHO.  Of course my fav power tube for my amp is TS5998 and WE421A with a 3rd (sleeper) certainly in the running for my personal top-tier list.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes, the cable makes a big difference.  The stock one is crap.  I had a very nice gentleman here braid one together for me out of some good Neotech (copper) wire, and it made a big difference.  The pads make a big difference too....I use the hybrid velour pads that are much more spacious and less closed-in sounding than the stock felt pads.  They give up a little crunch in the bass, but improve on most every other aspect of the sound (to my ears).


Dang I am way ahead of you on favors, I best find out if 21 year old Balvenie comes in 1.75 liter bottles.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> They are very good indeed.  My fav 6AS7G and better than the top getter Chatham 6AS7G, IMHO.  Of course my fav power tube for my amp is TS5998 and WE421A with a 3rd (sleeper) certainly in the running for my personal top-tier list.


It is tricky for me since I just ran some tests where I graded the Chatham and TS 5998 and a tube that shall remain nameless at this time but those two were within a point of each other as I recall. Both are fine tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes, the cable makes a big difference.  The stock one is crap.  I had a very nice gentleman here braid one together for me out of some good Neotech (copper) wire, and it made a big difference.  The pads make a big difference too....I use the hybrid velour pads that are much more spacious and less closed-in sounding than the stock felt pads.  They give up a little crunch in the bass, but improve on most every other aspect of the sound (to my ears).



Pffft.  My HP cable was hand braided by a 21 year old Cuban bikini model.  I felt a bit awkward having her do it, but her father insisted.  I had to pay in USD, however.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.  My HP cable was hand braided by a 21 year old Cuban bikini model.  I felt a bit awkward having her do it, but her father insisted.  I had to pay in USD, however.



Dunno why, but when I hear Cuban bikini model I can't help but visualize a Castro beard - and not in a good way


----------



## Ripper2860

You should seek help immediately!!


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> If you happened to make the headphone cable, very nice work.  The heat shrink at the split helps keeps all twists the same. I might have had some experience with such things.   I am in the process of bidding on a couple bottom getter Chatham's, very fine tubes IMHO.


Thanks, it was my third cable build for Sennheiser. Big upgrade on the components used versus the stock HD6XX cable. I would encourage others to make their own as it's not that costly in parts. I used Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad, a 1/4" neutrik connector and the L/R speaker connects were found from a Colorado seller on eBay who seems to know what he is doing. I believe they are the best Sennheiser speaker connector out there.


Ripper2860 said:


> They are very good indeed.  My fav 6AS7G and better than the top getter Chatham 6AS7G, IMHO.  Of course my fav power tube for my amp is TS5998 and WE421A with a 3rd (sleeper) certainly in the running for my personal top-tier list.


My favorite is the GE 5998A, hands down.
(Just kidding, haven't heard it.)
Yeah, I would say that my Tung Sol 5998 gets the most use.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No, the Atticus.  I needed a closed-back design for, um, domestic considerations.  I wear the pants in my house, but my wife wears the voice. And her voice is louder than my pants.


Comprendo 🤐🤐


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Thanks, it was my third cable build for Sennheiser. Big upgrade on the components used versus the stock HD6XX cable. I would encourage others to make their own as it's not that costly in parts. I used Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad, a 1/4" neutrik connector and the L/R speaker connects were found from a Colorado seller on eBay who seems to know what he is doing. I believe they are the best Sennheiser speaker connector out there.
> 
> My favorite is the GE 5998A, hands down.
> (Just kidding, haven't heard it.)
> Yeah, I would say that my Tung Sol 5998 gets the most use.


Shhhh Ripper just got his GE 5998A lol, I was keeping it out of the mix on purpose.

Mogami makes very good cable and I most often use Neutrik myself. Those are  nice headphone cup connectors as well.  I shall not get into types of wire I have used but I have plenty of choices, and samples I have yet to try.


----------



## therremans

Listening to the HD6XX again as it's been awhile. I would be reluctant to sell them, they really do shine with jazz. The Beyers step over them when it comes to bass oriented music or a rocking kick drum. One day I will upgrade to something richer, when I am. I also do not own any other headphone amp besides the Darkvoice. This amp has me interested, Singxer SA-1 - link.


----------



## Paladin79

I am now comparing Melz 1578's from 1959, and 1969 respectively. It comes in handy to have two identical amps setup. I have closely matched TS 5998's as power tubes.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Shhhh Ripper just got his GE 5998A lol, I was keeping it out of the mix on purpose.
> 
> Mogami makes very good cable and I most often use Neutrik myself. Those are  nice headphone cup connectors as well.  I shall not get into types of wire I have used but I have plenty of choices, and samples I have yet to try.



Guys for forget the GE 5998A.  The Sylvania 5998A is where its truely at.  LOL. 

All my custom cables are made with Mogami and Neutrik as well.  They are way better than stock, and affordable to boot.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> They are very good indeed.  My fav 6AS7G and better than the top getter Chatham 6AS7G, IMHO.  Of course my fav power tube for my amp is TS5998 and WE421A with a 3rd (sleeper) certainly in the running for my personal top-tier list.


The WE421A is moderately priced at $499.95 @ Tube Depot. A real catch 🤪🤪


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Listening to the HD6XX again as it's been awhile. I would be reluctant to sell them, they really do shine with jazz. The Beyers step over them when it comes to bass oriented music or a rocking kick drum. One day I will upgrade to something richer, when I am. I also do not own any other headphone amp besides the Darkvoice. This amp has me interested, Singxer SA-1 - link.


I need to sample you an Incubus one day.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> It is tricky for me since I just ran some tests where I graded the Chatham and TS 5998 and a tube that shall remain nameless at this time but those two were within a point of each other as I recall. Both are fine tubes.


What would I win if I guessed that the 3rd tube is the GE 5998A and since those 2 are close to each other meaning the 3rd is either better 👺 or most probably lower lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The WE421A is moderately priced at $499.95 @ Tube Depot. A real catch 🤪🤪


I bought two for a gentleman in England for $150 each but the seller on Ebay auction was not exactly happy with the transaction lol


----------



## therremans (Apr 21, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I am now comparing Melz 1578's from 1959, and 1969 respectively. It comes in handy to have two identical amps setup. I have closely matched TS 5998's as power tubes.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/164822359449 I had this 1959 Melz, perf plates in my cart and came so close to pulling the trigger. I thought about writing you to ask if it was a good buy. The next day I looked and I think it sold to a bidder in North Carolina.


Paladin79 said:


> I bought two for a gentleman in England for $150 each but the seller on Ebay auction was not exactly happy with the transaction lol


I remember those, I almost bid. If they are the ones I am thinking of.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> What would I win if I guessed that the 3rd tube is the GE 5998A


Yes you would win, I will send you Finnegan's paw print as an award.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Dunno why, but when I hear Cuban bikini model I can't help but visualize a Castro beard - and not in a good way


PG 18 🤐


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164822359449 I had this 1959 Melz, perf plates in my cart and came so close to pulling the trigger. I thought about writing you to ask if it was a good buy. The next day I looked and I think it sold to a bidder in North Carolina.
> 
> I remember those, I almost bid. I they are the ones I am thinking of.


I just wish I was bidding for myself but things get easy when you are using someone else's bankroll, and he was ready to pay $600 so I had some room to work.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Audio addiction?  You're in the wrong forum, dude.  None of us have that issue here.
> 
> I have a pair of ZMF's on order.  Probably be another few weeks before they arrive, but they're a 300 ohm impedance like the 6XX's so I'll be able to get a better handle on what a more "accomplished" high impedance headphone can offer once they arrive.


If they are the Auteur, you are in for something special - especially with OTL amp !!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought two for a gentleman in England for $150 each but the seller on Ebay auction was not exactly happy with the transaction lol


At least the Brits were happy lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 21, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> I just bought a perforated plate Melz from the year 1959.
> 
> Does anyone know how it compares to the perforated plate of 1969?


It had been a while since I heard the 69, so I am listening right now they are both wonderful tubes IMHO, I would go with the 59 on the top end, bass and mids are fairly equal.

Power tubes are both Tung Sol 5998's, headphones are Utopias and both Incubus amps have the same play time so both have settled in nicely. Gungnir has been running all day, I like to get it good and warmed up for any serious listening.

I do love Melz from the 50's and 60's, occasionally I will shop for other other 6sn7 equivalents but most often I listen to these.


----------



## Galapac (Apr 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Audio addiction?  You're in the wrong forum, dude.  None of us have that issue here.
> 
> I have a pair of ZMF's on order.  Probably be another few weeks before they arrive, but they're a 300 ohm impedance like the 6XX's so I'll be able to get a better handle on what a more "accomplished" high impedance headphone can offer once they arrive.


If you like the kinds of music like I do you are going to love the ZMFs paired with a tube amp...which model did you go for?

EDIT: Saw you got the Atticus.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.  My HP cable was hand braided by a 21 year old Cuban bikini model.  I felt a bit awkward having her do it, but her father insisted...


Her father was insisting that you _leave_.  You just don't hear good.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> If you like the kinds of music like I do you are going to love the ZMFs paired with a tube amp...which model did you go for?
> 
> EDIT: Saw you got the Atticus.


Yeah, I'm poor.  Haven't heard any ZMF's before so figured I'd start at the bottom.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Dang I am way ahead of you on favors, I best find out if 21 year old Balvenie comes in 1.75 liter bottles.


The tanker trunk should arrive tomorrow.  Hope you have something to store 11,000 gallons in.  I figured that'd be enough to get you through the end of the month, so long as you keep from binging.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Dang I am way ahead of you on favors, I best find out if 21 year old Balvenie comes in 1.75 liter bottles.


Any outstandings that @bcowen owes you should be settled in the following currency (quantity TBD):


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Any outstandings that @bcowen owes you should be settled in the following currency (quantity TBD):


At those prices, the quantity would be one of those little airplane bottles.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> At those prices, the quantity would be one of those little airplane bottles.


The hotel mini bar/fridge always to the rescue....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The tanker trunk should arrive tomorrow.  Hope you have something to store 11,000 gallons in.  I figured that'd be enough to get you through the end of the month, so long as you keep from binging.


Ok but I need perfectly formed round ice cubes that are crystal clear. I do not want any ice chips diluting the scotch. 😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Ok but I need perfectly formed round ice cubes that are crystal clear. I do not want any ice chips diluting the scotch. 😺


The ice MUST have a pH of 7.0 !!


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> You should seek help immediately!!


What can I say, I'm a complicated man.
Even my woman gave up trying to understand me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok but I need perfectly formed round ice cubes that are crystal clear. I do not want any ice chips diluting the scotch. 😺


That's on you.  I can't do _everything_.  Just be sure your storage tank is made of maple.


----------



## Ripper2860

jonathan c said:


> Any outstandings that @bcowen owes you should be settled in the following currency (quantity TBD):


That's in Mexican pesos, right?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's on you.  I can't do _everything_.  Just be sure your storage tank is made of maple.


Maple, stainless steel, same thing right?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> That's in Mexican pesos, right?


I see a USD sign before 998.99. Oh, that number is not the ‘Proof’ either...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Maple, stainless steel, same thing right?


Exactly.  That's why I want my Incubus v3 to be made of stainless....with dovetailed corners.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Exactly.  That's why I want my Incubus v3 to be made of stainless....with dovetailed corners.


I will start it the moment you become a paying customer.😸😸


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's on you.  I can't do _everything_.  Just be sure your storage tank is made of maple. _Who cares how the Balvenie tastes, just that it sounds good 😆_


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I will start it the moment you become a paying customer.😸😸


A stainless Incubus requires a stainless credit history...☝...🤷🏻‍♂️...🤦‍♂️...👎...🤬


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, the Atticus.  I needed a closed-back design for, um, domestic considerations.  I wear the pants in my house, but my wife wears the voice. And her voice is louder than my pants.


Louder than your Carolina blue wardrobe?...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will start it the moment you become a paying customer.😸😸


My check's in the mail.  I sent it Priority, so it should be there around July or so.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Louder than your Carolina blue wardrobe?...


Yes, but not nearly as attractive.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 21, 2021)

Tip for Tom:  Cash @bcowen 's check first and then make sure the currency is not counterfeit before getting started on his amp.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> My check's in the mail.  I sent it _Low _Priority, so it should be there around _any _July or so.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Tip for Tom:  Cash @bcowen 's check first and then make sure the currency is not counterfeit before getting started on his amp.


Nitpicker.  What does a check have to do with cash?


----------



## Ripper2860

Why bother with a check?  A handwritten promissory note from 'The Duke of Mt. Holly' written in disappearing ink and signed while having the royal fingers and toes crossed will surely suffice.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Why bother with a check?  A handwritten promissory note from 'The Duke of Mt. Holly' written in disappearing ink and signed while having the royal fingers and toes crossed will surely suffice.


That's "Mr." Duke to you, pal.


----------



## Ripper2860

Probably the only time you were not offended by my use of the word 'Duke'.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 22, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Probably the only time you were not offended by my use of the word 'Duke'.


OK, _that_ was pretty funny, you 'Heel.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's “Mr.” Sir Duke to you, pal plebe.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ok but I need perfectly formed round ice cubes that are crystal clear. I do not want any ice chips diluting the scotch. 😺


Ice cubes in  Balvenie 😡 BLASPHEMY


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> My check's in the mail.  I sent it Priority, so it should be there around July or so.
> 😛


No need, he’ll take you’re honorable word that you owe him


----------



## Louisiana

I have a question.
What is a Sylviana 6SN7GTB worth?





Not that I'm spending too much again, like for the 'Telefunken' ...


----------



## therremans

Louisiana said:


> I have a question.
> What is a Sylviana 6SN7GTB worth?
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, the plates are throwing me off as they are gray ladder plates and not the angled T plates Sylvania are known for. I don’t think it is an RCA either. Generally GTBs are worth less than GT/GTA. I would say $10-$15.

Are you able to see any EIA codes printed on the base?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Ice cubes in  Balvenie 😡 BLASPHEMY


Special ice cubes although I sometimes used the small cubes of stone that you store in the freezer to give it a slight chill in the heat of summer. In the winter I rarely use ice.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> No need, he’ll take you’re honorable word that you owe him


Are we talking about the same @bcowen?  His check would most likely be made of cardboard cause you have to pay for regular bank checks.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Special ice cubes although I sometimes used the small cubes of stone that you store in the freezer to give it a slight chill in the heat of summer. In the winter I rarely use ice.


I use stones too during the summer as there is no water transparent enough to be mixed with a good single malt 😊😊


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Are we talking about the same @bcowen?  His check would most likely be made of cardboard rubber...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Are we talking about the same @bcowen?  His check would most likely be made of cardboard cause you have to pay for regular bank checks.


It’s your bad if you spoiled him with free giveaways 😜


----------



## Louisiana

therremans said:


> Are you able to see any EIA codes Printer on the base?


Thank you!
No, but i will ask the seller for some more detailed pictures.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 22, 2021)

Additional pics would be helpful.  Ladder plate Sylvanias are rather scarce and usually fetch a bit more, although not TF level more.  The MFG code would also be helpful (3-digit numbers on the side of the base).


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> It’s your bad if you spoiled him with free giveaways 😜


Seriously he has sent me a lot of tubes so I help where I can.  As best I recall he gave me Neotech wire when I built his cables. I can do the braiding but rely mostly on a woman who works for me who is far more skilled in that process. The DV extension was my way of making him something out of tiger maple since I could not get his sideways Incubus amp to fit in my first attempt using said wood so I always felt like I owed him.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Special ice cubes although I sometimes used the small cubes of stone that you store in the freezer to give it a slight chill in the heat of summer. In the winter I rarely use ice.


My recommendation is for you to try the Macallan 18 it’s the 5998 Tung Sol of all 18 and also 21 years lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Seriously he has sent me a lot of tubes so I help where I can.  As best I recall he gave me Neotech wire when I built his cables. I can do the braiding but rely mostly on a woman who works for me who is far more skilled in that process. The DV extension was my way of making him something out of tiger maple since I could not get his sideways Incubus amp to fit in my first attempt using said wood so I always felt like I owed him.


I can see his smile from afar 😊


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Ice cubes in  Balvenie 😡 BLASPHEMY


Whatever happened to sticking the bottle in the 'fridge and just taking a swig out of it every now and then (or every _now_ for @Paladin79 ).  Such first world problems....


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I can see his smile from afar 😊


I have a B&K tube tester that is down, a 707 Dynajet I am hoping he fixes free of charge so there is that lol. Every time I start to work on it something else comes up so it keeps slipping farther and farther down my list of priorities. Bill has a lot of practical experience with tube testers and enjoys working on them. I have spent my career in electronics and technical management so I am happier doing woodworking now, I can pretty much build an Incubus in my sleep but the woodworking is always a challenge.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Are we talking about the same @bcowen?  His check would most likely be made of cardboard cause you have to pay for regular bank checks.


And not even corrugated cardboard at that.  More like poster paper.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Whatever happened to sticking the bottle in the 'fridge and just taking a swig out of it every now and then (or every _now_ for @Paladin79 ).  Such first world problems....


We do not have brown jugs of moonshine here like they do in your neck of the woods, often we drink out of glasses.


----------



## Ripper2860

Bazinga!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a B&K tube tester that is down, a 707 Dynajet I am hoping he fixes free of charge so there is that lol. Every time I start to work on it something else comes up so it keeps slipping farther and farther down my list of priorities. Bill has a lot of practical experience with tube testers and enjoys working on them. I have spent my career in electronics and technical management so I am happier doing woodworking now, I can pretty much build an Incubus in my sleep but the woodworking is always a challenge.


Well, I will...but you have to send it to me first.  My arms aren't that long.  

That, of course, depends on it being fixable.  I've had a pretty good luck record with these vintage testers so far though.  Of the 30+ I've done, there's only one I couldn't get working correctly, and I'm pretty sure it has some separated (or fused) transformer windings which is the ultimate kiss of death. Not like you can just order a new one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We do not have brown jugs of moonshine here like they do in your neck of the woods, often we drink out of glasses.


Glasses?  How quaint.  We use these.  Of course you have to use IEM's while drinking, so there's that.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> The DV extension was my way of making him something out of tiger maple since I could not get his sideways Incubus amp to fit in my first attempt using said wood so I always felt like I owed him.


If these posts had audio accompaniment, would the @bcowen theme be the Rolling Stone’s “Under My Thumb”...?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 22, 2021)

I would have thought Jethro Tull's 'Aqualung'...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, I will...but you have to send it to me first.  My arms aren't that long.
> 
> That, of course, depends on it being fixable.  I've had a pretty good luck record with these vintage testers so far though.  Of the 30+ I've done, there's only one I couldn't get working correctly, and I'm pretty sure it has some separated (or fused) transformer windings which is the ultimate kiss of death. Not like you can just order a new one.


I keep ordering large things from Amazon hoping I get the right sized box but no luck so far. I may have to get creative.   It will head your way sometime in the near future, hopefully by St. Swithin's day.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I would have thought, Jethro Tull's 'Aqualung'...


Actually, more like....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I keep ordering large things from Amazon hoping I get the right sized box but no luck so far. I may have to get creative.   It will head your way sometime in the near future, hopefully by St. Swithin's day.


Well, you should be getting a big box with the stainless you order for my v3.   

Or, you could just send it like this.  LOL!


----------



## SHIMACM (Apr 22, 2021)

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164822359449 I had this 1959 Melz, perf plates in my cart and came so close to pulling the trigger. I thought about writing you to ask if it was a good buy. The next day I looked and I think it sold to a bidder in North Carolina.
> 
> I remember those, I almost bid. If they are the ones I am thinking of.



I bought it. haha. He is being sent to Brazil.

What I got from 1969 I also bought from that same seller.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> It had been a while since I heard the 69, so I am listening right now they are both wonderful tubes IMHO, I would go with the 59 on the top end, bass and mids are fairly equal.
> 
> Power tubes are both Tung Sol 5998's, headphones are Utopias and both Incubus amps have the same play time so both have settled in nicely. Gungnir has been running all day, I like to get it good and warmed up for any serious listening.
> 
> I do love Melz from the 50's and 60's, occasionally I will shop for other other 6sn7 equivalents but most often I listen to these.



Thanks for the prints.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Up to this point 7 or 8 of my amps are being used for testing but there were Issues with a couple of the tubes in one amp. It may be some have solder issues or it could be the amp I built. Just remember even Tung Sol 5998’s can have solder issues. What if you bought one of those and a channel dropped out or it had a loud hum and had not read the history about pins and solder. You would be thinking the seller ripped you off or those tubes were crap. I want to figure this out since it could slew the results.


This... Member here was ready to toss a 5998 into the dumpster and I was lucky enough to catch wind if it and asked if I could have it, he was generous enough to ship it to me from Australia, long story short ... resoldering the pins got me a nice 5998 to my little collection. Feel like I owe him one but he insists we're good. ☺️


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This... Member here was ready to toss a 5998 into the dumpster and I was lucky enough to catch wind if it and asked if I could have it, he was generous enough to ship it to me from Australia, long story short ... resoldering the pins got me a nice 5998 to my little collection. Feel like I owe him one but he insists we're good. ☺️


Seems you had a Sylvania like that too.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Whatever happened to sticking the bottle in the 'fridge and just taking a swig out of it every now and then (or every _now_ for @Paladin79 ).  Such first world problems....


That would work too but every visit to the fridge would lead to extracting more food, I better stay away myself especially at night lol with the presence of a bucket of butter pecan ice cream or Macadamia nut brittle stuck in my face every time I open the freezer 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have a B&K tube tester that is down, a 707 Dynajet I am hoping he fixes free of charge so there is that lol. Every time I start to work on it something else comes up so it keeps slipping farther and farther down my list of priorities. Bill has a lot of practical experience with tube testers and enjoys working on them. I have spent my career in electronics and technical management so I am happier doing woodworking now, I can pretty much build an Incubus in my sleep but the woodworking is always a challenge.


I agree, woodworking is a challenge but an enjoyable thing to do too as well especially when building a plane from scratch ✈✈


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> We do not have brown jugs of moonshine here like they do in your neck of the woods, often we drink out of glasses.


"brown jugs of moonshine " 😃😃😃


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I agree, woodworking is a challenge but an enjoyable thing to do too as well especially when building a plane from scratch ✈✈


This was my last woodworking project....back when I lived in Oklahoma and had free use of my father-in-law's wood shop.  Yes, it's oak...he didn't have any maple.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> This was my last woodworking project....back when I lived in Oklahoma and had free use of my father-in-law's wood shop.  Yes, it's oak...he didn't have any maple.


Hell’s ducks man!! What kind of bloke uses oak???

Do you store music there and Marylin Manson in a brown paper bag?

Nice work though, I will have to try woodworking myself sometime,😀

I did make this out of oak

And a BH Crack.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell’s ducks man!! What kind of bloke uses oak???
> 
> Do you store music there and Marylin Manson in a brown paper bag?
> 
> Nice work though, I will have to try woodworking myself sometime,😀


The same bloke that used whatever his father-in-law had an ample supply of in the shop.  Hard to beat the price.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The same bloke that used whatever his father-in-law had an ample supply of in the shop.  Hard to beat the price.


Why does free not shock me lol. Seriously though after Oak pedestal tables, and our bedroom furniture I had made, and a couple armoires, I started getting away from oak after a while but I do like it.

Come to think of it I have never made an Incubus with an oak cabinet.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> This was my last woodworking project....back when I lived in Oklahoma and had free use of my father-in-law's wood shop.  Yes, it's oak...he didn't have any maple.


A beautiful woodwork, same texture as the floor 👍
In fact I love oak and I thought am the only one keeping my DVD & BD collection although all my movies are digitized now same with CDs.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Why does free not shock me lol. Seriously though after Oak pedestal tables, and our bedroom furniture I had made, and a couple armoires, I started getting away from oak after a while but I do like it.
> 
> Come to think of it I have never made an Incubus with an oak cabinet.


Never too late, am sure @bcowen  moved “some” oak stock with him 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hell’s ducks man!! What kind of bloke uses oak???
> 
> Do you store music there and Marylin Manson in a brown paper bag?
> 
> ...


A nice collection of bows you have there 😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> A nice collection of bows you have there 😍


I competed for many years, now I mostly teach.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Seems you had a Sylvania like that too.


Sylvania... 5998.... All the same... 😊 😂


----------



## therremans

I am posting this here, not sure if there is a thread for this. But I would avoid this seller if you do not have the ability to verify that the tubes are good. He sold me a dud and won’t respond. It’s been over 30 days.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I am posting this here, not sure if there is a thread for this. But I would avoid this seller if you do not have the ability to verify that the tubes are good. He sold me a dud and won’t respond. It’s been over 30 days.


File a claim. You'll get your monies back quick


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> I am posting this here, not sure if there is a thread for this. But I would avoid this seller if you do not have the ability to verify that the tubes are good. He sold me a dud and won’t respond. It’s been over 30 days.


I bought a Brimar 6sn7gt from him and it came with a problem. I asked for a refund on ebay and was refunded.


----------



## Paladin79

It is time to talk a bit about GE 5998A's. I just received two from FLTWS that had serious issues, and they were NOS tubes and both of us checked them. When I got them one had a loud hum and the other was missing the right channel and what was there was pretty garbled. I did not replace solder in the pins since it may cause the seller not to offer a refund. I bought from an individual with one tube for sale. It works fine as does Sam's and Richard's. I have no doubt SHIMACM received one with issues just as Frank did.  I do not want to put words in Sam's or Ripper's mouth but both seemed to like the tubes as do I. The bass and mids are quite good on the tube I got, the high end is a bit better on the Tung Sol 5998 and the Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G. Those are the two tubes that outscored the GE in my testing. Eight of us tested the tubes blind not knowing which was the GE or any other power tube till after the testing was over. Final score was 88.5 in my group. The Tung Sol scored 91 and the Chatham 92. The GE scored higher than any other tubes tested most likely because the bass and mids are so good, sound stage was excellent in my amps and while the top end was not that of the two other tubes, it was not drastically worse. My thoughts are, be careful who you buy from because if they are not tested properly, you may indeed get a dud tube.  Frank's tubes were from 1978 and mine is from 1974. They are a nice change of pace and when you pair one with a 1950's Foton the bass gets better and better. This is more of a cautionary tale about reading carefully what information the seller does and does not offer about these tubes if you buy one. It could be re-soldering the pins can help but I am not in a position to try that quite yet.

Tom


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 24, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> It is time to talk a bit about GE 5998A's. I just received two from FLTWS that had serious issues, and they were NOS tubes and both of us checked them. When I got them one had a loud hum and the other was missing the right channel and what was there was pretty garbled. I did not replace solder in the pins since it may cause the seller not to offer a refund. I bought from an individual with one tube for sale. It works fine as does Sam's and Richard's. I have no doubt SHIMACM received one with issues just as Frank did.  I do not want to put words in Sam's or Ripper's mouth but both seemed to like the tubes as do I. The bass and mids are quite good on the tube I got, the high end is a bit better on the Tung Sol 5998 and the Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G. Those are the two tubes that outscored the GE in my testing. Eight of us tested the tubes blind not knowing which was the GE or any other power tube till after the testing was over. Final score was 88.5 in my group. The Tung Sol scored 91 and the Chatham 92. The GE scored higher than any other tubes tested most likely because the bass and mids are so good, sound stage was excellent in my amps and while the top end was not that of the two other tubes, it was not drastically worse. My thoughts are, be careful who you buy from because if they are not tested properly, you may indeed get a dud tube.  Frank's tubes were from 1978 and mine is from 1974. They are a nice change of pace and when you pair one with a 1950's Foton the bass gets better and better. This is more of a cautionary tale about reading carefully what information the seller does and does not offer about these tubes if you buy one. It could be re-soldering the pins can help but I am not in a position to try that quite yet.
> 
> Tom


Seems buying one is a crap shoot but results sound surprising for a GE, how does it compare to the Winged C and RCA 6AS7G?
For the score/price compared to the TS and Chatham it’s a good value.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 24, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems buying one is a crap shoot but results sound surprising for a GE, how does it compare to the Winged C and RCA 6AS7G?


points wise it finished above them but as I explained before we are testing 25 traits and the GE got some very high marks as far as bass and mids.  The test causes you to just listen and truly compare sound and the sonic examples we use are made directly for this purpose.

They are higher in price than most winged C's and probably comparable to RCA 6as7G's in price but caveat emptor, check the sellers return policy and talk to him if you can. Someone like Lowtechelec actually listens to the tubes, many do not.


----------



## therremans

This is one of the first 6SN7s I received in an eBay lot when I first bought the Darkvoice. I never passed it on or sold it due to the damage shown to the getter. The tube tests strong (2350/2300, 2600 new) and still sounds great. No shorts.

What do you suppose happened here?


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> This is one of the first 6SN7s I received in an eBay lot when I first bought the Darkvoice. I never passed it on or sold it due to the damage shown to the getter. The tube tests strong (2350/2300, 2600 new) and still sounds great. No shorts.
> 
> What do you suppose happened here?


It was probably just a thinner piece of material in the getter holder that burnt through.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> points wise it finished above them but as I explained before we are testing 25 traits and the GE got some very high marks as far as bass and mids.  The test causes you to just listen and truly compare sound and the sonic examples we use are made directly for this purpose.
> 
> They are higher in price than most winged C's and probably comparable to RCA 6as7G's in price but caveat emptor, check the sellers return policy and talk to him if you can. Someone like Lowtechelec actually listens to the tubes, many do not.


Already checked at Lowtechelec, no stock. But will call Jeff see if he can get hold of a working one.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Already checked at Lowtechelec, no stock. But will call Jeff see if he can get hold of a working one.


I need to get back to work, Finnegan is waiting.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get back to work, Finnegan is waiting.


When the cat’s at work, don’t be a jerk...


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 24, 2021)

Tubekeeping Q:  Have any of you used Bar Keeper’s Friend (w/oxalic acid +) to clean pins (and metal base, if not labeled) of tubes? It seems to do the job (and I follow with isopropyl alcohol cleaning).


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 24, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get back to work, Finnegan is waiting.


And he seems in a very serious non-tolerating mood 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

A good catch with free shipping 🤣🤣🤣
https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Tubekeeping Q:  Have any of you used Bar Keeper’s Friend (w/oxalic acid +) to clean pins (and metal base, if not labeled) of tubes? It seems to do the job (and I follow with isopropyl alcohol cleaning).


I like to use tape head cleaner and a brass brush. The cleaner is made to be residue free.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 24, 2021)

therremans said:


> This is one of the first 6SN7s I received in an eBay lot when I first bought the Darkvoice. I never passed it on or sold it due to the damage shown to the getter. The tube tests strong (2350/2300, 2600 new) and still sounds great. No shorts.
> 
> What do you suppose happened here?


Agree with @Paladin79 that it was probably a thin or weak spot in that metal piece that burned through when the getter was flashed.  We all typically refer to those internal pieces as the getter. They are not actually the getter, but the getter _holder_. They just hold the getter material itself until it is "flashed" by applying a high current to it at the end of the manufacturing process, which causes the actual 'getter' to disperse as the shiny silver coating inside the tube. Once the flashing process has occurred, the getter _holder_ serves no further purpose -- it has no electrical significance (assuming a broken piece isn't touching an element somewhere and causing a short). That, and helping us tube addicts identify tubes by their internal construction.


----------



## SHIMACM

What an incredible combination! The Fivre 6C5G is definitely the best companion for the Mullard 6080.

The Fivre is a valve with a great sound stage, very detailed, with great extension in the treble along with the heat of the Mullard 6080 the sound is magical.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Tubekeeping Q:  Have any of you used Bar Keeper’s Friend (w/oxalic acid +) to clean pins (and metal base, if not labeled) of tubes? It seems to do the job (and I follow with isopropyl alcohol cleaning).


Never tried it myself.  For tube pins, I use DeOxit, alcohol, and even some buffing wheels on a Dremel depending on how cruddy they are.  For tube sockets (in the amp) I use Kontak because it leaves no residue, doesn't require a commercial kitchen hood for ventilation , and mostly because I'm a spendthrift.  

Even though it has to come across the pond for us USA'ians, these guys have about the best price I've seen, even with the shipping cost.

https://www.analogueseduction.net/contact-treatment/kontak-audio-contact-cleaning-fluid.html


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> Agree with @Paladin79 that it was probably a thin or weak spot in that metal piece that burned through when the getter was flashed.  We all typically refer to those internal pieces as the getter. They are not actually the getter, but the getter _holder_. They just hold the getter material itself until it is "flashed" by applying a high current to it at the end of the manufacturing process, which causes the actual 'getter' to disperse as the shiny silver coating inside the tube. Once the actual flashing process has occurred, the getter holder serves no further purpose -- it has no electrical significance (assuming a broken piece isn't touching an element somewhere and causing a short). That, and helping us tube addicts identify tubes by their internal construction.



It can be flashed again, usually with positive results.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> What an incredible combination! The Fivre 6C5G is definitely the best companion for the Mullard 6080.
> 
> The Fivre is a valve with a great sound stage, very detailed, with great extension in the treble along with the heat of the Mullard 6080 the sound is magical.


Those aren't cheap. Nice grab.


----------



## sam6550a

therremans said:


> This is one of the first 6SN7s I received in an eBay lot when I first bought the Darkvoice. I never passed it on or sold it due to the damage shown to the getter. The tube tests strong (2350/2300, 2600 new) and still sounds great. No shorts.
> 
> What do you suppose happened here?


Don't worry about it-----listen to it and use it!


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get back to work, Finnegan is waiting.


Feed him a dead 6SN7.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Feed him a dead 6SN7:  with a few extra _cat_hodes...


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> It can be flashed again, usually with positive results.


Huh?  Not sure I understand you. If all the getter material was flashed (ie: vaporized) initially as it should have been, what is there left to re-flash?  Not debating you, just that I've never heard of this before.


----------



## bcowen

OK, brace yourselves.  You'll probably find this funnier than Saturday Night Live:     

(Hint:  G.E. Co. does not mean GEC.  )


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 24, 2021)

Ok.  After doing some direct comparison between Tung-Sol 5998 and GE 5998A, my thoughts are as follows...

1. It's REALLY close!

2. 5998A is a tiny bit rolled off on the top-end.  5998 has a bit more sparkle up top.

3. Mids seem a tiny bit better on the 5998A.  Not sure if it's a tad more forward or just has a touch more detail and clarity.  I'm hearing a tiny bit more subtleties with the 5998A over the 5998.

4.  The 5998 seems to be a bit more open and airy giving instruments just a tad more space and air.  5998A is still good, but the 5998 just seems better.

5.  The 5998A definitely delivers more punch and energy on the bottom-end.  Despite this, bass remains well controlled and does not really impart a tubby or thickness to the sound. The 5998A bass extends deep and is very well balanced even with the slight top-end roll-off.

6.  My sample was very quiet and exhibited no issues

In my opinion the 5998A is a very good tube and what I would call a 'sleeper' given the sound at the price.  It's a tremendous value delivering 95%+ of the 5998 for approx. 1/5 the price.  The 5998 just slightly edges it out in my opinion due to the slightly wider soundstage and air.  With the type of music I prefer, that is something that made the difference.

P.S. The usual disclaimer of this being my opinion based on my gear, my ears, and my music.

P.P.S.  Sorry @bcowen !  😜


----------



## Galapac

Thanks for sharing @Ripper2860 & @Paladin79 your impressions on the 5998A. 

I got 2 myself, dated 48 week of 1978 and used them in my 339i.

Initially I thought they were holding something back in the mids for me but the bass as others have said was promising.
Under advice I gave them a bit over 10 hours to burn in and now they have appeared to open up more and I had better separation.
Mids are more forward then when first fired up so I can say burn in makes a big difference.
I am most impressed with the low end of this tube which for me is a plus. 
The highs are hit and miss right now for me so I will see if it gets better with continued use.

My comparisons were limited to the 5998A itself and how it sounded with my usual playlist I use for all new trials of tubes. I did not compare against other tubes nor did I have the means for a blind type of test with a scoring system.

I had no out of box issues with my 2 tubes and they behave well in my amp with no hum issues.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 24, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Thanks for sharing @Ripper2860 & @Paladin79 your impressions on the 5998A.
> 
> I got 2 myself, dated 48 week of 1978 and used them in my 339i.
> 
> ...


I am glad the burn in helped and your results are similar to all the folks I know who did not get a dud tube. I got mine for $25 so for that price it was a real bargain. Combine it with a 50’s Foton and the bass is really something. My group and I did score them lower on highs but most all other aspects of the tube did very well.

Some power tubes can sound overly bright with the Melz I run but the balance was quite good with the GE 5998A.  Like Fotons they are a bargain at this time IMHO.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> P.P.S.  Sorry @bcowen !  😜


No you're not.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No you're not.


I believe one seller just bought a bunch of tubes NOS and made no mention of testing any. I had the same thing happen with a dud 7236. 

I tried to be as fair and honest as possible concerning the duds. Most anyone who buys a lot of tubes has had similar bad experiences on EBay. 😾


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok.  After doing some direct comparison between Tung-Sol 5998 and GE 5998A, my thoughts are as follows...
> 
> 1. It's REALLY close!
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts on the GE 5998a enough that I just purchased three of them. For 1/5 the price of the TS 5998, the GEs are to me a low-risk purchase (from a highly rated seller). How, it’s GE?! The purchased tubes were of 1978 production. GE was then still an engineering titan - the accountants and financial practitioners had not yet ransacked the firm. That activity began in the mid-1980s.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Same seller I bought mine from. 

As much as I want a 2nd one, I'll hold off until you fine folks partake.  I have a couple of TS 5998 to go with the GE 5998A, so I'll pass and bank the good Karma for when I really need it.   😄


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 24, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Same seller I bought mine from.
> 
> As much as I want a 2nd one, I'll hold off until you fine folks partake.  I have a couple of TS5998 to go with the GE 5998A, so I'll pass and bank the good Karma for when I really need it.   😄


Very generous of you. GracyGrace vs BangyBang.....“More than ten left”...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 24, 2021)

Double post. Nothing to see here.  😏


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> Huh?  Not sure I understand you. If all the getter material was flashed (ie: vaporized) initially as it should have been, what is there left to re-flash?  Not debating you, just that I've never heard of this before.




There is always some left. A fellow on YouTube is making his own tubes and he is pulling getters from old tubes. 
And i have reflashed hundreds even thousands of tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> There is always some left. A fellow on YouTube is making his own tubes and he is pulling getters from old tubes.
> And i have reflashed hundreds even thousands of tubes.


Far out.  I'd honestly never heard of this before.  Is specialized equipment needed?  Guessing you need something that will produce some pretty high voltage (or maybe a great big capacitor)?


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> Far out.  I'd honestly never heard of this before.  Is specialized equipment needed?  Guessing you need something that will produce some pretty high voltage (or maybe a great big capacitor)?


You need an induction heater ( a simple 6 component device) and a beefy power supply. I used to have videos of the process but that was 2 phones ago.


----------



## Deyan

The round shapes of the getter holders O's, D's, disks turns them into a single turn shortend coil which heats up once an oscillating magnetic field is introduced.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I believe one seller just bought a bunch of tubes NOS and made no mention of testing any. I had the same thing happen with a dud 7236.
> 
> I tried to be as fair and honest as possible concerning the duds. Most anyone who buys a lot of tubes has had similar bad experiences on EBay. 😾


Getting the 5898A after the positive reviews and the good value but will avoid ebay and see if I can get it tested before buying it


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Getting the 5898A after the positive reviews and the good value but will avoid ebay and see if I can get it tested before buying it


A great plan, I will get another down the road. I like to be able to shape the sound   dependent upon my music choices and the GE 5998A brings more bass to the table.  Thanks again to others who took a chance.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ....dependent upon my music choices and the GE 5998A brings more bass to the table.



You mean there are actual bass notes in a pan flute?  I never knew!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Thanks to everyone who ordered and tested the 5998A 👍👍


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean there are actual bass notes in a pan flute?  I never knew!


Go away son you bother me😺

I was thinking more of songs like The Beast in Me, and Red Right Hand.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You mean there are actual bass notes in a pan flute?  I never knew!



Geez, Louise!!  If you're going to insult someone, at least get your facts straight!!  Yanni plays piano.  Zamfir plays the pan flute.**   

**The reason I know is that they are both on my NEVER BUY CD list.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez, Louise!!  If you're going to insult someone, at least get your facts straight!!  Yanni plays piano.  Zamfir plays the pan flute.**
> 
> **The reason I know is that they are both on my NEVER BUY CD list.


Notice Bill has not said his comments on the GE 5998A were incorrect?  The man is obviously humbled and trying to change the subject!!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Now don't be too hard on Bill.  I'm sure he's a bit tired and wit-deficient after being up all night buying every GE 5998A he can find.  


Besides -- he'd never give us the satisfaction.  Especially after loosing the BBQ war.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Notice Bill has not said his comments on the GE 5998A were incorrect?  The man is obviously humbled and trying to change the subject!!!


I believe I said early on with this 'experiment' that I could be wrong.  I'm struggling now determining the best method for recording this instance, as there are no pre-existing records to append to.      

I may (_may_) be wrong too on these GE 6C4's.  Time will tell once I get an adapter put together.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Bill thought he was wrong once, but it turned out he was mistaken.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez, Louise!!  If you're going to insult someone, at least get your facts straight!!  Yanni plays piano.  Zamfir plays the pan flute.**
> 
> **The reason I know is that they are both on my NEVER BUY CD list.


Way to ruin the joke, nitpicker.  Now go back to your Justin Bieber and David Cassidy....


----------



## Louisiana

Hi, 
a few pictures of tubes that i'm considering buying.
your opinion?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Now go back to your Justin Bieber and David Cassidy....



You scoff now, but time will prove their musical genius.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Notice Bill has not said his comments on the GE 5998A were incorrect?  The man is obviously humbled and trying to change the subject!!!


Probably busy cultivating the GE 😍


----------



## Paladin79

Louisiana said:


> Hi,
> a few pictures of tubes that i'm considering buying.
> your opinion?


I have not tried the Valvo 6080 but the others are pretty good choices. I am particularly fond of the Ken Rad black glass, I have Brimars but I prefer other 6sn7's myself.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Hi,
> a few pictures of tubes that i'm considering buying.
> your opinion?


Nice collection 👍


----------



## bcowen

Louisiana said:


> Hi,
> a few pictures of tubes that i'm considering buying.
> your opinion?


Opinion?  OK...just don't put much credence on my opinion of GE 5998A's.    

The RCA is a good all-rounder type tube.  Doesn't do anything wrong, pleasing sound. There are many tubes that do things better (IMO), but if you can get the RCA for a good price then it's a nice one to have in your stash.

Brimar 6SN7's....not my thing. Just kind of lean overall and bass-shy to my ears.  But a lot of people absolutely love them.  It's one of those YMMV tubes...you might enjoy it tremendously, and its partnering power tube(s) will likely have a big influence.   It's considered an upper-tier tube regardless of whether it scores highly with your personal preferences.

Ken-Rad Black Glass -- great tube.  Just buy it, assuming it has good test numbers and is at a competitive market price.

Valvo - can't help as I've never heard one.  Looks similar to a Mullard (which I (personally) like), although I haven't studied it it down to the last detail. If you can get it for a good price, probably worth the adventure.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You scoff now, but time will prove their musical genius.


Yes, but even the time left before the universe explodes (or implodes) is not infinite.


----------



## Ripper2860

Justin Bieber: Awarded 2 Grammys
Marilyn Manson: Awarded 0 Grammys 

Now go away...


----------



## Louisiana

bcowen said:


> Opinion?  OK...just don't put much credence on my opinion of GE 5998A's.


Wish i would find a 5998!


bcowen said:


> The RCA is a good all-rounder type tube.  Doesn't do anything wrong, pleasing sound. There are many tubes that do things better (IMO), but if you can get the RCA for a good price then it's a nice one to have in your stash.


Its about 40€



bcowen said:


> Brimar 6SN7's....not my thing. Just kind of lean overall and bass-shy to my ears.  But a lot of people absolutely love them.  It's one of those YMMV tubes...you might enjoy it tremendously, and its partnering power tube(s) will likely have a big influence.   It's considered an upper-tier tube regardless of whether it scores highly with your personal preferences.


Great, because these are the most expensive. 
Matched pair about 350€...



bcowen said:


> Ken-Rad Black Glass -- great tube.  Just buy it, assuming it has good test numbers and is at a competitive market price.


Don't no nothing about test numbers - i'm really green.
Price is about 60€


bcowen said:


> Valvo - can't help as I've never heard one.  Looks similar to a Mullard (which I (personally) like), although I haven't studied it it down to the last detail. If you can get it for a good price, probably worth the adventure.


90€ - doesn't sound like a good price?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 25, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Justin Bieber: Awarded 2 Grammys
> Marilyn Manson: Awarded 0 Grammys
> 
> Now go away...


@bcowen: Awarded 1 Incubus


----------



## Paladin79

I am building a small audio system and using maple where possible. Someday I need to explain to @bcowen the wonderful qualities of such wood.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Notice Bill has not said his comments on the GE 5998A were incorrect?  The man is obviously humbled and trying to change the subject!!!


“The truth: you can’t handle the truth”...


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Opinion?  OK...just don't put much credence on my opinion of GE 5998A's.
> 
> The RCA is a good all-rounder type tube.  Doesn't do anything wrong, pleasing sound. There are many tubes that do things better (IMO), but if you can get the RCA for a good price then it's a nice one to have in your stash.
> 
> ...


You nailed the RCA 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Wish i would find a 5998!
> 
> Its about 40€
> 
> ...


I have the RCA and it’s exactly how @bcowen  described it (a good all rounder). US price is around $50


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> “The truth: you can’t handle the truth”...


In defense to @bcowen approach, few of the GE tubes had issues for various reasons that may double the price if you get unlucky and given that the odds were not in favor of GE, the watcher seat with pop corn was a more favorable position 😊


----------



## Ripper2860

How much did Bill pay you for this rescue attempt?  😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> How much did Bill pay you for this rescue attempt?  😄


A Tung Sol 5998 in pristine condition and it’s called bribery 😇😇


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am building a small audio system and using maple where possible. Someday I need to explain to @bcowen the wonderful qualities of such wood.😜


Man, it is getting thick in here.  Perhaps I should take a break and go back to Audio Asylum.  

Wait...no, I'm not a masochist.  Or totally brainless.  I'll go pick a fight with a neighbor instead.  About the same difference.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> In defense to @bcowen approach, few of the GE tubes had issues for various reasons that may double the price if you get unlucky and given that the odds were not in favor of GE, the watcher seat with pop corn was a more favorable position 😊


Why would the odds not be in favour of GE?...


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 25, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Why would the odds not be in favour of GE?...


Coz as a general consensus GE sucks 🤣🤣 and it would be really weird for a $50 tube to out perform its price range drastically especially after being in the market for long years IMHO


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am building a small audio system and using maple where possible. Someday I need to explain to @bcowen the wonderful qualities of such wood.😜


The grains are beautiful, hopefully it won't be covered in black as the main cabinet. It would be a real waste


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Man, it is getting thick in here.  Perhaps I should take a break and go back to Audio Asylum.
> 
> Wait...no, I'm not a masochist.  Or totally brainless.  I'll go pick a fight with a neighbor instead.  About the same difference.


I'm sorry. It's just our twisted way of showing you that we love you!  😘😘😘😍😍😍

Plus we know you thrive on attention.  😄


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Coz as a general consensus GE sucks 🤣🤣 and it would be really weird for a $50 tube to out perform its price range drastically especially after being in the market for long years IMHO


Check one out then talk, anyone can guess.😎😎😎


----------



## bcowen (Apr 25, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> A Tung Sol 5998 in pristine condition and it’s called bribery 😇😇


Mine just went noisy.     

Thought I'd pop the Tung Sol 6J5G's back in just as a reality check against the Hytron 7A4's I've become very fond of. Soon as I touched the volume knob, a loud 'thwang' through both earcups. Crap...I'm thinking one of those 6J5G's went all microphonic...and not just a little, like mega-microphonic. Pulled them out and put the 7A4's back in. Same thing...worse maybe, as now just a light tap on any of the 3 tubes gave me a scratchy, gritty sound (this with the volume control still at zero and no signal applied). Popped in the graphite Chatham 6080, and total silence. Same with the 6J5G's back in. It's the friggin' Tung Sol 5998. DAMNIT! It's the only one I have. Now I haven't resoldered the pins on it, so I'm crossing fingers, toes, and even genital parts that a thorough resoldering job will heal it. If not, I'm going to kick the dog wife kid Ripper something.  Grrrr.  And no, I'm not buying a GE. That would result in even further emotional trauma, I don't care if it's 96% or 99.99332% or 167.5% as good as the Tung Sol.  I never claimed to be rational.  

But, the Chatham 6080 is not the best mate with the Hytrons, and while it sounds good with the TS 6J5G's, it's just not optimum. So on a whim, I stuck in a Cetron 7236.  Huh? What?  This is like damn near magical!  The Tung-Sol 6J5G's I would characterize as being on the warm side of the fence, and the Cetron 7236 is on the opposite side.  The 7A4's with the 7236 is just a bit too aggressive (for my tastes), but these TS 6J5G's are a match made in heaven with it.  Should probably have a marriage ceremony at some point.  I just got through paying for my son's Prom so the wedding ceremony may have to wait, but for now, this is one killer combo!!  

Oh, and one more bummer....my Incubus Elegans nameplate fell off. Probably because it had to be mounted sideways?  Now I'm going to have to send it back to the factory for repair.  Sigh.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Why would the odds not be in favour of GE?...



The seller most used had two bad and having heard from him, great results otherwise. He basically opened the case and sold them.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Check one out then talk, anyone can guess.😎😎😎


On it 😀


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

@bcowen - Try super glue on the Incubus tag.

Try a Chatham 6AS7G bottom getter in place of the 5998.  It's more than up to the task and will sub in nicely while you bury your 5998 in the back yard tube graveyard.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Mine just went noisy.
> 
> Thought I'd pop the Tung Sol 6J5G's back in just as a reality check against the Hytron 7A4's I've become very fond of. Soon as I touched the volume knob, a loud 'thwang' through both earcups. Crap...I'm thinking one of those 6J5G's went all microphonic...and not just a little, like mega-microphonic. Pulled them out and put the 7A4's back in. Same thing...worse maybe, as now just a light tap on any of the 3 tubes gave me a scratchy, gritty sound (this with the volume control still at zero and no signal applied). Popped in the graphite Chatham 6080, and total silence. Same with the 6J5G's back in. It's the friggin' Tung Sol 5998. DAMNIT! It's the only one I have. Now I haven't resoldered the pins on it, so I'm crossing fingers, toes, and even genital parts that a thorough resoldering job will heal it. If not, I'm going to kick the dog wife kid Ripper something.  Grrrr.  And no, I'm not buying a GE. That would result in even further emotional trauma, I don't care if it's 96% or 99.99332% or 167.5% as good as the Tung Sol.  I never claimed to be rational.
> 
> ...


Good luck with the Incubus CEO lol 
Mind the request timing though 😜


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Mine just went noisy.
> 
> Thought I'd pop the Tung Sol 6J5G's back in just as a reality check against the Hytron 7A4's I've become very fond of. Soon as I touched the volume knob, a loud 'thwang' through both earcups. Crap...I'm thinking one of those 6J5G's went all microphonic...and not just a little, like mega-microphonic. Pulled them out and put the 7A4's back in. Same thing...worse maybe, as now just a light tap on any of the 3 tubes gave me a scratchy, gritty sound (this with the volume control still at zero and no signal applied). Popped in the graphite Chatham 6080, and total silence. Same with the 6J5G's back in. It's the friggin' Tung Sol 5998. DAMNIT! It's the only one I have. Now I haven't resoldered the pins on it, so I'm crossing fingers, toes, and even genital parts that a thorough resoldering job will heal it. If not, I'm going to kick the dog wife kid Ripper something.  Grrrr.  And no, I'm not buying a GE. That would result in even further emotional trauma, I don't care if it's 96% or 99.99332% or 167.5% as good as the Tung Sol.  I never claimed to be rational.
> 
> ...


Yeah send it back, I can handle super glue without gluing an eye lid down.😺

By the way the 7236 Cetron did not fair well in comparison to other power tubes, I have them but only use them in tests.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

I don't understand why my phone continues to double post when I edit.  It's a Samsung - not a GE, so it's not by design.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen - Try super glue on the Incubus tag.
> 
> Try a Chatham 6AS7G bottom getter in place of the 5998.  It's more than up to the task and will dub in nicely while you bury your 5998 in the back yard tube graveyard.


A good re-soldering job may revive it 🙏 
A TS dying while a GE is popping up is a bad omen


----------



## Ripper2860

Or it could be Karma.  😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Or it could be Karma.  😄


That too 😊


----------



## bcowen (Apr 25, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> Wish i would find a 5998!


Me too.  Now.   


Louisiana said:


> Its about 40€



Not a steal, but not an unreasonable price if the tube is at NOS levels and is otherwise good. I've seen them go on US Ebay for as little as $10 (US), but who knows what condition they were in.


Louisiana said:


> Great, because these are the most expensive.
> Matched pair about 350€...



That's a lot. You can likely find them for less money if you spend some time looking. Check US sellers and US Ebay as well...many will ship internationally, and even with the shipping you might find a better deal.



Louisiana said:


> Don't no nothing about test numbers - i'm really green.
> Price is about 60€


Not a bad price for that KenRad if it's in NOS condition.


Louisiana said:


> 90€ - doesn't sound like a good price?


You got me on that one.  If it's a rebranded Mullard, that's a decent (but not great) price.  But I don't know enough about it to help further, sorry.


----------



## HTSkywalker

I believe the GE stock value started climbing somewhere, I knew it 😊


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen - Try super glue on the Incubus tag.
> 
> Try a Chatham 6AS7G bottom getter in place of the 5998.  It's more than up to the task and will sub in nicely while you bury your 5998 in the back yard tube graveyard.


I have not pulled the blanket over it yet.  It will spend some time in intensive care first.  

I have some super glue, was just concerned that I'd void the non-warranty.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Currently the Naughty girls are doing a wonderful job with the RCA at this side of earth 😊


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> By the way the 7236 Cetron did not fair well in comparison to other power tubes, I have them but only use them in tests.


Well, I don't listen to Famzir or Zimfar or whatever either, so there's that.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I have not pulled the blanket over it yet.  It will spend some time in intensive care first.
> 
> I have some super glue, was just concerned that I'd void the non-warranty.


As I understand it, the warranty is void when you superglue the Incubus tag to your finger.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> By the way the 7236 Cetron did not fair well in comparison to other power tubes, I have them but only use them in tests.



I found the Sylvania 7236 to be a better sounding tube than Cetron. At the going price for the Cetron, I should probably sell my stash.  😏


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2021)

A couple coats of wax and the maple and piano black lacquer music system is complete. Trial run right now. 50 watts with subwoofer and 3 way speakers. Running Tidal blue tooth but I also have an aux in.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Snagged a Sylvania 5998A from an expired UK listing that the seller still had.  NOS/NIB and looks almost identical to the GE but the plates are just a teeny bit different, as in not totally flat.  Not a lot of pics, so I may uncover more differences upon receipt.  Should get it early to mid May and will report in.  😉


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I found the Sylvania 7236 to be a better sounding tube than Cetron. At the going price for the Cetron, I should probably sell my stash.  😏


In all seriousness, I have (had?) a love/hate relationship with the Cetron.  It did some things so well -- very fast, articulate, explosive on transients, powerful and well-defined bass, etc.  But it could also be fatiguing, etched in the treble, hard sounding, and lacked harmonic detail and texture in the mids.  All this to my ears, of course.  But with all that, I liked it better than the Tung-Sol 7236 I had...and sold (to you maybe)?  Then these Tung-Sol 6J5G's rolled in thanks to a fellow (and cool) HeadFi'er.  As I mentioned, they are on the warm side, but have an incredible tonality, and harmonic richness and layering and tubular god-likeness in the midrange.  Paired with an RCA 6AS7G, rather boring.  Better with the Chatham 6080, nice with the Chatham 6AS7G, but still too long a shot to submit for consideration for a Marilyn Manson seal of approval. 

But here's the thing -- the 6J5G's excel where the Cetrons stumble, and vice versa.  Put the Cetron in with a Philips ECG 6SN7, and I would be selling all my tubes tomorrow morning and buying a solid state Class D amp.**   But the Cetron/TS combo is, well, wonderful.  May not need that 5998 after all. LOL!  It's too early to make that proclamation (if ever), but I honestly *do* like what I'm hearing right now.  My Cetron also has a couple hundred hours on it....it was pretty brittle and treble-tilted with artificially hyped-sounding detail at the outset which may have something to do with it.

** that was a joke..  Mostly.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A couple coats of wax and the maple and piano black lacquer music system is complete. Trial run right now. 50 watts with subwoofer and 3 way speakers. Running Tidal blue tooth but I also have an aux in.


Sweet!  Very nice looking.  Love the maple inset for the controls!

Is that a fancy beer keg in the right corner?  That's about the perfect size cup for me sitting under the spout.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> A Tung Sol 5998 in pristine condition and it’s called bribery a consulting fee...😇😇


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> As I understand it, the warranty is void when you superglue the Incubus tag to your finger.


Good to know.  I thought it was voided as soon as the outgoing shipping sticker was put on the box.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't understand why my phone continues to double post when I edit.  It's a Samsung - not a GE, so it's not by design.


Operator error, obviously.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Coz as a _general_ consensus GE sucks 🤣🤣 and it would be really weird for a $50 tube to out perform its price range drastically especially after being in the market for long years IMHO


The GE 5998a as an exception (☝️or 🤞?) to the above?...


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe the GE stock value started climbing somewhere, I knew it 😊


That's because they finally got rid of the moron (Immelt) who was running the place.  I don't think a 6 year old child could have done much worse of a job.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Very nice looking.  Love the maple inset for the controls!
> 
> Is that a fancy beer keg in the right corner?  That's about the perfect size cup for me sitting under the spout.


It is a water tank, It was a lot of trouble getting electricity to the shed and with fiberoptic and such underground I preferred not to run a water line. I reinforced the floor underneath and set it on plywood to distribute the weight more evenly. That is a 50 gallon tank that weighs in at over 450 lbs when full.  If my wife ever gives up on pottery I can use the tank for getting PH in water used for beer making.  No girly beers for me, I would start with a Belgian quadruple.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The GE 5998a as an exception (☝️or 🤞?) to the above?...


I have oft been told the 6550's by GE are pretty good as well but Sam is the expert there. The man gets me satsumas so I will go along with anything he says.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A couple coats of wax and the maple and piano black lacquer music system is complete. Trial run right now. 50 watts with subwoofer and 3 way speakers. Running Tidal blue tooth but I also have an aux in.


Coming out beautifully but You should do something about the side screws though


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> A couple coats of wax and the maple and piano black lacquer music system is complete. Trial run right now. 50 watts with subwoofer and 3 way speakers. Running Tidal blue tooth but I also have an aux in.


Very nice looking...reminds me of Tivoli Audio gear....did @bcowen do the walls?...


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen - Try super gorilla glue on the Incubus tag: not on whatever is on your head....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have oft been told the 6550's by GE are pretty good as well but Sam is the expert there. The man gets me satsumas so I will go along with anything he says.


Did you ever try those GE rectifiers I sent you?  They may actually be pretty good.  Never know.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That's because they finally got rid of the moron (Immelt) who was running the place.  I don't think a 6 year old child could have done much worse of a job.


So you are a Democrat 😊😊


----------



## bcowen

LOL!  I only use Gorilla glue on the hair on my back.    

I have some nice 3M tape that will fix the logo plate.  May shove some of it up into that 5998 too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Very nice looking...reminds me of Tivoli Audio gear....did @bcowen do the walls?...



I believe it is a cross between Duke and NC blue, pretty much the same team right?  

The gentleman who did the interior work on the shed gave me some wooden hollow poplar posts built by the Amish. Their workmanship was exceptional so I added the piano black finish and some scrap maple I had, maybe $100 for electronics and it was a done deal. All wire came from 16 awg ofc samples that were given me.

I am using more of the hollow posts for table legs on a live edge catalpa table I will be building. It took me under 30 seconds to realize what I could do with the wood. It is just the way my mind works, I can envision the end result so both items are nearly complete.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The GE 5998a as an exception (☝️or 🤞?) to the above?...


A GE white sheep 😛


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's because they finally got rid of the moron (Immelt) who was running the place.  I don't think a 6 year old child could have done much worse of a job.


The Wall Street analysts read the _Rip_ort on the GE 5998a...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I only use Gorilla glue on the hair on my back.
> 
> I have some nice 3M tape that will fix the logo plate.  May shove some of it up into that 5998 too.


I thought you moved the Incubus tag or was the the larger logo? It is not like I want to assume any responsibility for a gift amp.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> So you are a Democrat 😊😊


Not going there.    

My brother-in-law has worked for GE for almost 35 years, so I get more insight to the inner workings than most.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I thought you moved the Incubus tag or was the the larger logo? It is not like I want to assume any responsibility for a gift amp.


No, I moved the larger plate from the bottom (where it couldn't be seen) to the front 'cause I thought it was way too cool to be hidden out of sight.  It's the little "Incubus Elegans" plate (right above the volume knob) that came off.  I'm pretty sure I can fix it here if you can send some detailed instructions.


----------



## sam6550a

Well, I suppose that I should comment, since one of you fine fellows [who shall remain anonymous] "suggested" that I buy the GE 5998A as tester prior to their commitment of hard cash. Being a long term audiophool, but short term headphone user, I had little to compare the GE 5998A to. So, I set up Incubus [yes, the paladin79 creation] with a '58 Melz as the voltage amp for all tests, and the 6AS7 power tube as the equation variable. The comparison tubes are Svetlana winged '76, and RCA  6AS7G 6822 date code.
Let me quickly summarize: Upon hearing the GE, I knew that we did not have a dog, as it sounded reasonable. After ~10 hour burn in, it was smoother.
Summary in non-engineering listening gut feel  terms to mostly classical, some rock, some country, and even some ABBA [talk to me sometime about the genius of these composers] was simple:
Note: I put a lot of credence in evaluating the long term[ over 1 hour] inalienability of a tube.  
Svetlana--rough around the edges, fatiguing to listen to long term.
RCA--Very neutral, smooth, almost colorless except for some LF and HF rolloff.
GE 5998A--Fairly neutral, some increase in the bass, certainly a more forward mid-range [which seems to work well in OTL amplifiers].
I thought that the GE 5998A was more than adequate, that I ordered a second one [a spare] with no regrets.
Conclusion: A fairly priced high performing tube in OTL topology. Definitely a good buy.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, I moved the larger plate from the bottom (where it couldn't be seen) to the front 'cause I thought it was way too cool to be hidden out of sight.  It's the little "Incubus Elegans" plate (right above the volume knob) that came off.  I'm pretty sure I can fix it here if you can send some detailed instructions.


The words “Incubus Elegans” should face out...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> The words “Incubus Elegans” should face out...


LMAO!!!  Oh and it is Incubus Elegan, I had not studied Latin in years so someone corrected me. It translates as elegant nightmare.


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> The words “Incubus Elegans” should face out...


You do not own a REAL Incubus Elegan until you get Tom to personally sign your amp.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> A GE white sheep 😛


Does it bleat when switched on?


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> You do not own a REAL Incubus Elegan until you get Tom to personally sign your amp.


....or engrave the transformer....?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Coming out beautifully but You should do something about the side screws though


I went with what I had at the moment but I may pretty that up later. I did the end pieces today and cut out the front panel, and did all the wiring. I was in a hurry to check it out but there is a little finish work to still do. I am sure if I try I can stuff more sorbothane inside the cabinet.   It does wonders for extraneous sound.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> You do not own a REAL Incubus Elegan until you get Tom to personally sign your amp.


I should get @bcowen to return the logo since he has sullied the amp with Marilyn Manson. The poor logo probably jumped off the amp in shame.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe it is a cross between Duke and NC blue, pretty much the same team right?


I hate you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should get @bcowen to return the logo since he has sullied the amp with Marilyn Manson. The poor logo probably jumped off the amp in shame.



All better, even if my Latin is lacking.  I've never used the VHB tape on cardboard, but it seems to adhere quite well.    

Now I just need the address to send the invoice to....


----------



## therremans

Bummer about your 5998 @bcowen but maybe you’ll bring it back to life. Or reflash that baby. I think I preferred the 5998 with the Tung-Sol VT-94 on my setup, but I’ll give another listen with my TS 7236. I don’t own a Cetron.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Bummer about your 5998 @bcowen but maybe you’ll bring it back to life. Or reflash that baby. I think I preferred the 5998 with the Tung-Sol VT-94 on my setup, but I’ll give another listen with my TS 7236. I don’t own a Cetron.


Yeah, I'm hoping it's just a solder issue.  I listened to it off and on all day yesterday, and never a hint of a problem.  Just started misbehaving this morning.  I haven't even put it in the tester, which would likely give an indication if it's just a bad solder connection in a pin.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Does it bleat when switched on?


No but it glows when turned ON lol


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> All better, even if my Latin is lacking.  I've never used the VHB tape on cardboard, but it seems to adhere quite well.
> 
> Now I just need the address to send the invoice to....


You should reach around and pat yourself on the back, you got it right side up and everything!!!.  Wait did I include that knob with your amp? I should have charged extra for it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait did I include that knob with your amp? I should have charged extra for it.


Yeah, it came on the amp.  What's it for?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I went with what I had at the moment but I may pretty that up later. I did the end pieces today and cut out the front panel, and did all the wiring. I was in a hurry to check it out but there is a little finish work to still do. I am sure if I try I can stuff more sorbothane inside the cabinet.   It does wonders for extraneous sound.


Black hex head screws would look nice


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I should get @bcowen to return the logo since he has sullied the amp with Marilyn Manson. The poor logo probably jumped off the amp in shame.


Something fishy about @bcowen and the logo 😀


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Black hex head screws would look nice


Brass.  It's the best sounding metal for racks and footers and enclosures and such.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Something fishy about @bcowen and the logo 😀


It was probably moisture in his breath from heavy breathing as he played Marilyn Manson.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Brass.  It's the best sounding metal for racks and footers and enclosures and such.


Hell's ducks, here we go again.  Could one of you guys please build something so I can criticize it one day, hmmm? Those who can, do. Those who cannot kibitz.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's ducks, here we go again.  Could one of you guys please build something so I can criticize it one day, hmmm? Those who can, do. Those who cannot kibitz.


ROFL!  I figured that would get you going.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It was probably moisture in his breath from heavy breathing as he played Marilyn Manson.


Marilyn Manson songs playing within the Incubus circuit would do way more damage than popping a logo


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Something fishy about @bcowen and the logo 😀


True.

1. It fell off
2. I put it back on

Stranger things have happened.  Perhaps the jarring as I was beating that 5998 with a heavy rubber mallet contributed?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's ducks, here we go again.  Could one of you guys please build something so I can criticize it one day, hmmm? Those who can, do. Those who cannot kibitz.


Well I build wooden planes and they sound much noisier than a GE driven amp


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

@bcowen -  Sorry about the late notice, but I just realized that I received a PM from your 5998.  I was sworn to secrecy, but I feel compelled to tell you seeing as you are a friend and all.  Sorry I couldn't get this to you sooner.



> *Bcowens TS5998* *says*:  How's it going Ripper?   Schiit! Here comes Bill. Don't tell him, but I swear if he plays that ******* Marilyn Manson crap one more ******* time I'm going to ******* kill myself!!  😫


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen -  Sorry about the late notice, but I just realized that I received a PM from your 5998.  I was sworn to secrecy, but I feel compelled to tell you seeing as you are a friend and all.  Sorry I couldn't get this to you sooner.


LOL!  

You should add the (tm) mark when you're copying Manson's lyrics, at least in part.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Brass.  It's the best sounding metal for racks and footers and enclosures and such knuckles...  🤕


----------



## bcowen

And making Tom's eyes roll, of course.  That's the best part.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok more news on GE 5998A's, I just re-soldered the pins on two of them and suddenly the issues disappeared so... they are no worse than Tung Sol 5998's as far as pin solder issues. I do not trust them well enough yet to plug in serious headphones but that will come later.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And making Tom's eyes roll, of course.  That's the best part.


Hey I paid homage to your nuttiness with my use of maple in some of my latest builds lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok more news on GE 5998A's, I just re-soldered the pins on two of them and suddenly the issues disappeared so... they are no worse than Tung Sol 5998's as far as pin solder issues. I do not trust them well enough yet to plug in serious headphones but that will come later.


Can you virtually re-solder the pins on my Tung-Sol?  Please?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Can you virtually re-solder the pins on my Tung-Sol?  Please?


Sure get on your phone and open up PayPal account and I will work on them as I sleep tonight, once some serious money hits my account.


----------



## Ripper2860

While at Initech, Bill wrote an app that will sweep bank accounts and move fractions of pennies to his offshore account. Seeing as it is merely fractions of a penny, it could take a while to get the money  unless something goes awry...


No wait.  I think that was from the movie Office Space..   

OK.  He'll have the money after the royalty checks start coming in from his 'Jump to Conclusions' game.  👍


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> While at Initech, Bill wrote an app that will sweep bank accounts and move fractions of pennies to his offshore account. Seeing as it is merely fractions of a penny, it could take a while to get the money  unless something goes awry...
> 
> 
> No wait.  I think that was from the movie Office Space..
> ...


That premise was done in Superman 3 in 1983. Richard Pryor played the programmer. That which is old can be new again.😺


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> That premise was done in Superman 3 in 1983. Richard Pryor played the programmer. That which is old can be new again.😺


Also reminds me of the time when I was tossing around the idea of getting my paycheck cashed out in pennies. This was back when the Canadian Peso was only worth ~$.65 USD. As long as I'd get enough US pennies = profit! Of course after some sober (literally) thought, I realized the whole idea just reeked of effort.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

Yeah, but that was science fiction. 1983 was before Al Gore invented the Internet.  Dial-up modems, Compuserve, and BBS was the thing in 1983.  😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> While at Initech, Bill wrote an app that will sweep bank accounts and move fractions of pennies to his offshore account. Seeing as it is merely fractions of a penny, it could take a while to get the money  unless something goes awry...
> 
> 
> No wait.  I think that was from the movie Office Space..
> ...


Shouldn't you be checking for new posts in the Barbie Dreamhouse forum?  You're going to get behind...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Ooops.  Sorry for the previous post edit.

And Bill, you know I was banned from there.  Why do you keep bringing that up. 😒


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Also reminds me of the time when I was tossing around the idea of getting my paycheck cashed out in pennies. This was back when the Canadian Peso was only worth ~$.65 USD. As long as I'd get enough US pennies = profit! Of course after some sober (literally) thought, I realized the whole idea just reeked of effort.


I can recall playing in a card tournament in Canada and paying for something with US $20 and receiving back a Canadian $20 in change. 😺


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

> Shouldn't you be checking for new posts in the Barbie Dreamhouse forum? You're going to get behind...



I've filed a suit for age discrimination, btw.  They keep telling me I'm no longer allowed because a parent or guardian needs to agree to give me access, but I know that is just an excuse.  😒


----------



## Mr Trev

Mr Trev said:


> Also reminds me of the time when I was tossing around the idea of getting my paycheck cashed out in pennies. This was back when the Canadian Peso was only worth ~$.65 USD. As long as I'd get enough US pennies = profit! Of course after some sober (literally) thought, I realized the whole idea just reeked of effort.


It also reminds me of a story I saw on the news ages ago. Apparently some low level employee for Edmonton Public Transit was living in a huge fancy house, many luxury cars. Turns out that the guy's main duties were to empty the ticket machines for the LRT. Each time he did, a hand full of coins went into _his_ pocket. Happened for something like 15 yrs. before anybody caught on.


----------



## therremans

Gents, is this an RCA? It has the lower shield/guard and doesn’t have the copper rods like the Chatham.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...-/333968654368?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

That's a relabeled RCA.  Likely made by RCA for Tung-Sol.  Could have been a base swap, but unlikely.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> That premise was done in Superman 3 in 1983. Richard Pryor played the programmer. That which is old can be new again.😺


Funny comedian, terrible movie. I saw that in the movie theater for like .75 cents when it came out.


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> Gents, is this an RCA? It has the lower shield/guard and doesn’t have the copper rods like the Chatham.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...-/333968654368?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


The print looks off to me. Like a bad forgery. Did RCA ever makes tubes foe TS?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 25, 2021)

Lots of MFGs subbed to others in support of contracts, etc., when they needed to fulfill quotas and did not have enough materials or capacity.  Given the sheer number of RCA 6AS7G tubes out there for sale, I'd have to think RCA was the largest MFG with greatest capacity and likely partnered with anyone and everyone except Russians. 😄


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

Here's a prime example. A tube I bought because I thought it was kinda cool.  Look familiar?...


----------



## Galapac (Apr 25, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Oh, and I know this isn't the Crack thread, but y'all have been super helpful with my learning process on amps and soldering and those little bendy things that go between the other things inside of an amp, so here's my just-completed stock Crack (gonna double check everything before I put it in the case and try it out):
> 
> 
> 
> Those little LEDs on the 9-pin socket are a pain in the ass to finagle.


@DeweyCH - Did you ever finish your Crack build?
I just finished mine today and here are some pics of the final build.
And yes, those LEDs were a PITA...I even had one of the LED legs attached to another pin on the socket and didn’t see it until I checked it thoroughly when it didn’t light up
I have some faint static in the headphones so will check the phone jack and volume pot solder work tomorrow.

Apologies up front for posting in the wrong thread and will post further updates in the crack thread.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Ripper2860 said:


> ...I'd have to think RCA was the largest MFG with greatest capacity and likely partnered with anyone and everyone except Russians. 😄


_"In 1937, the Soviet Union purchased a tube assembly line from RCA, including production licenses and initial staff training..."_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tube_designations

(there were tubes made in Russia prior to that of course, but I guess it was not a streamlined process)


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> _"In 1937, the Soviet Union purchased a tube assembly line from RCA, including production licenses and initial staff training..."_
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tube_designations
> 
> (there were tubes made in Russia prior to that of course, but I guess it was not a streamlined process)


Great info, I have used some of the Russian GU series tubes in a build, the German version was LS.


----------



## DeweyCH (Apr 26, 2021)

Galapac said:


> @DeweyCH - Did you ever finish your Crack build?
> I just finished mine today and here are some pics of the final build.
> And yes, those LEDs were a PITA...I even had one of the LED legs attached to another pin on the socket and didn’t see it until I checked it thoroughly when it didn’t light up
> I have some faint static in the headphones so will check the phone jack and volume pot solder work tomorrow.
> ...


That looks amazing! I did finish mine, about time to do the speedball upgrade. What did you paint the top plate and bell with? The texture is fantastic.

Also, Verite Closed and OTL amps. Is there a better pairing in all of head-fi land?


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> That looks amazing! I did finish mine, about time to do the speedball upgrade. What did you paint the top plate and bell with? The texture is fantastic.
> 
> Also, Verite Closed and OTL amps. Is there a better pairing in all of head-fi land?


It depends on the OTL amp, my Focal Utopias do my play well with the Crack but are wonderful with other OTL amps. I am also partial to open headphones.😺😺


----------



## Ripper2860

tubebuyer2020 said:


> _"In 1937, the Soviet Union purchased a tube assembly line from RCA, including production licenses and initial staff training..."_
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tube_designations
> 
> (there were tubes made in Russia prior to that of course, but I guess it was not a streamlined process)


I did not know that.  Thx.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I did not know that.  Thx.


I have some of the early RCA that are bottom getter like Svetlanas. The Svetlana needed more room so they are a little taller.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on the OTL amp, my Focal Utopias do my play well with the Crack but are wonderful with other OTL amps. I am also partial to open headphones.😺😺


I am partial to TOTL headphones that cover both ears (anti-Van Gogh)....


----------



## bcowen (Apr 26, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I am partial to TOTL headphones that cover both ears (anti-Van Gogh)....


I prefer a more encompassing experience.  An ugly sweater and mismatched jacket actually improve the sonics, although I realize some may scoff at the idea.  Oh, and yellow is the best sounding color.


----------



## Paladin79

Both of these are military issued, RCA bottom getter on the left, 1955 Svetlana on the right.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I prefer a more encompassing experience.  An ugly sweater and mismatched jacket actually improve the sonics, although I realize some may scoff at the idea.  Oh, and yellow is the best sounding color.


Bill I will PM you to coordinate a raid on @Paladin79 tube chest as he’s mostly busy in the shed.
As more and more mouth watering  tubes are emerging 😍😍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Bill I will PM you to coordinate a raid on @Paladin79 tube chest as he’s mostly busy in the shed.
> As more and more mouth watering  tubes are emerging 😍😍


Best plan on being here for a month or so. It'll probably take us that long to find where all of them are stashed.  Oh, and we'll need to move all the furniture to grab the ones that Finnegan has "hidden."


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on the OTL amp, my Focal Utopias do my play well with the Crack but are wonderful with other OTL amps. I am also partial to open headphones.😺😺


You ever side-by-side the Utopias with some ZMF open-backs? I ask because I absolutely love my Auteurs, quite possibly as much as the VCs, and I'm struggling to imagine what an extra two grand would do.


----------



## DeweyCH

Good morning world. Listening to "Love" by the Beatles with my @Deyan adapters in full force - two Super Silvertone 6L5s in front and GEC CV4079s in back. Soundstage is huge. Sound is a little warmer than I tend to dig, but it works, especially in comparison to the Crack next door that's running the TS 5998 power tube and a RCA 12au7 driver tube for punchy but neutral sound.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> You ever side-by-side the Utopias with some ZMF open-backs? I ask because I absolutely love my Auteurs, quite possibly as much as the VCs, and I'm struggling to imagine what an extra two grand would do.


Others have who own my amps, and a friend will be lending me Verite’s soon.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Others have who own my amps, and a friend will be lending me Verite’s soon.


Nice. Hope they're burned in - I've been skeptical about "burn-in" on a lot of things, but the Verite beryllium drivers really do seem to benefit from it tremendously, like 100+ hours of it. My Auteurs were practically perfect out of the box; the VCs took a while to catch up, but then passed them by (although not by a tremendous amount).


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Best plan on being here for a month or so. It'll probably take us that long to find where all of them are stashed.  Oh, and we'll need to move all the furniture to grab the ones that Finnegan has "hidden."


We should check Tom's vacation plans, hopefully he won't take any tubes with him while traveling  
By now we have a good layout of his house, garden and shed although am a bit worried about the strange looking wooden hideaways in his garden as well as the crossbows
in his possession 🙃🙃 but the bounty is worth the risk.
No need to waste time with Finnegan tubes, will target the cream of the crop lol.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> .... although am a bit worried about the strange looking wooden hideaways in his garden as well as the crossbows



Wonder if he can hit the side of the shed with one of those at this age.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Best plan on being here for a month or so. It'll probably take us that long to find where all of them are stashed.  Oh, and we'll need to move all the furniture to grab the ones that Finnegan has "hidden."


You should recruit, with catnip etc, Finnegan as your _cat burglar_:  quick, quiet...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wonder if he can hit the side of the shed with one of those at this age.


_His_ shed?...


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Good morning world. Listening to "Love" by the Beatles with my @Deyan adapters in full force - two Super Silvertone 6L5s in front and GEC CV4079s in back. Soundstage is huge. Sound is a little warmer than I tend to dig, but it works, especially in comparison to the Crack next door that's running the TS 5998 power tube and a RCA 12au7 driver tube for punchy but neutral sound.


Could the wider soundstage from the DV be partially due to running 4 tubes versus 2 tubes, irrespective of type and brand?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wonder if he can hit the side of the shed with one of those at this age.


Want to have a competition? Granted I doubt I can still put five arrows in a spot the size of a nickel now at 20 yards but a three inch bullseye is doable.😸


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Want to have a competition? Granted I doubt I can still put five arrows in a spot the size of a nickel now at 20 yards but a three inch bullseye is doable.😸


Good to hear 😊 you should go on a month long hunting trip soon 😛


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Want to have a competition? Granted I doubt I can still put five arrows in a spot the size of a nickel now at 20 yards but a three inch bullseye is doable.😸


On a Carolina blue T-shirt, the red bullseye contrast would make it > doable ?...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> On a Carolina blue T-shirt, the red bullseye contrast would make it > doable ?...


Lol. I have witnesses and in my younger days in order to win a bet I hit the red oval on a Marlboro pack at 100 yards, one shot. The gentleman who bet me was best man in my wedding.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Tubekeeping Q:  Have any of you used Bar Keeper’s Friend (w/oxalic acid +) to clean pins (and metal base, if not labeled) of tubes? It seems to do the job (and I follow with isopropyl alcohol cleaning).


That stuff makes my pots and pans nice and shiny, I'll have to give it a try.
How do you use it on pins? Make a paste and scrub or just dissolve and let 'em sit?

I've also heard those Mr. Clean Magic Erasers can clean pins too


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> Could the wider soundstage from the DV be partially due to running 4 tubes versus 2 tubes, irrespective of type and brand?


I don't think so. I am of the understanding that two tubes together are electrically equal to one tube of the combined version (IE two 6J5s=one 6SN7, two CV4079s=one 6080/5998/6AS7). I might be wrong, though.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 26, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> That stuff makes my pots and pans nice and shiny, I'll have to give it a try.
> How do you use it on pins? Make a paste and scrub or just dissolve and let 'em sit?
> 
> I've also heard those Mr. Clean Magic Erasers can clean pins too


I make a paste, scrub gently, wipe down with damp thin cloth, wipe down with isopropyl alcohol. I keep the tube upright with the pins facing down the whole time......._my pots_......chef?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I don't think so. I am of the understanding that two tubes together are electrically equal to one tube of the combined version (IE two 6J5s=one 6SN7, two CV4079s=one 6080/5998/6AS7). I might be wrong, though.



I'm in the other camp.  Using separate Left and Right single triode tubes (or channel dedicated dual triode tubes) eliminate inter-element channel cross-talk compared to twin triodes in a single tube used for L and R channels.  Less cross-talk means greater separation and a seemingly wider soundstage, IMHO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol. I have witnesses and in my younger days in order to win a bet I hit the red oval on a Marlboro pack at 100 yards, one shot. The gentleman who bet me was best man in my wedding.


@bcowen ABORT mission ☹☹


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> I don't think so. I am of the understanding that two tubes together are electrically equal to one tube of the combined version (IE two 6J5s=one 6SN7, two CV4079s=one 6080/5998/6AS7). I might be wrong, though.


I was _musing_ that, even though electrical equivalency is there, two tubes doing the “work” of one tube meant less “work” (more unused reserves) for each of those two tubes ===> more dynamic range, wider soundstage.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 26, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm in the other camp.  Using separate Left and Right single triode tubes eliminate inter-element cross-talk as opposed to twin triodes in a single tube.  Less cross-talk means greater separation and a seemingly wider soundstage, IMHO.


Advanced OTL amps like Prima Luna use more tubes and dedicated left right wiring for better separation so yes it makes sense IMHO
The more tubes the merrier


----------



## DeweyCH

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm in the other camp.  Using separate Left and Right single triode tubes (or channel dedicated dual triode tubes) eliminate inter-element cross-talk compared to twin triodes in a single tube.  Less cross-talk means greater separation and a seemingly wider soundstage, IMHO.


I'd be more inclined to buy this if they weren't combining into a single socket. I dunno. I just tinker until crap sounds good or catches fire. Bonus points if it catches fire but sounds even more fire.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol. I have witnesses and in my younger days in order to win a bet I hit the red oval on a Marlboro pack at 100 yards, one shot. The gentleman who bet me *was *best man in my wedding.


Seems he went missing since the bet lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I'd be more inclined to buy this if they weren't combining into a single socket. I dunno. I just tinker until crap sounds good or catches fire. Bonus points if it catches fire but sounds even more fire.



Give it a try and you be the judge.  1x 6SN7 vs 2x 6J5s.

Maybe @Paladin79 can provide more info.  He may even have verified via measurements.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen ABORT mission ☹☹


Well your escapade would be recorded in color or black and white if in night vision mode. With sound and a warning beep sent to my phone as any camera senses movement. 😜


----------



## Ripper2860

And then there's the trained ATTACK CAT!!  Its dander attack is even more ferocious than its scratching and biting!!


----------



## DeweyCH (Apr 26, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Give it a try and you be the judge.  1x 6SN7 vs 2x 6J5s.
> 
> Maybe @Paladin79 can provide more info.  He may even have verified via measurements.


But what if I find my uninformed assumption to be wrong? My ego can't handle that.

Edit to add: I'm also unsure how well I can compare a pair of 6J5s with a 6SN7 without making sure they're, like... the same? Is there a good way to match 6J5s with their design/manufacturing equivalent 6SN7s? I do actually wanna try this... but I don't wanna do something that unlevels the playing field, like comparing a pair of (nice, but still) tin-can RCA 6J5s with a brown-base CBS Hytron 6SN7.


----------



## Ripper2860

Then you could be like Bill and just say nothing.


----------



## Ripper2860

If there's one thing I've learned is that Audio is not for the light-hearted -- or those whose feelings are easily hurt.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Lol. I have witnesses and in _*my younger days *_in order to win a bet I hit the red oval on a Marlboro pack at 100 yards, one shot. The gentleman who bet me was best man in my wedding.


Well, @bcowen and @HTSkywalker, are you feeling lucky....or will you make @Paladin79 ‘s day....?...


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> But what if I find my uninformed assumption to be wrong? My ego can't handle that.
> 
> Edit to add: I'm also unsure how well I can compare a pair of 6J5s with a 6SN7 without making sure they're, like... the same? Is there a good way to match 6J5s with their design/manufacturing equivalent 6SN7s? I do actually wanna try this... but I don't wanna do something that unlevels the playing field, like comparing a pair of (nice, but still) tin-can RCA 6J5s with a brown-base CBS Hytron 6SN7.


You can look up tube specs online or in manuals, but in my experience 6J5’s have a cumulative gain the same as a 6Sn7. Consider each one side of a 6SN7 without the extra shielding needed in a dual triode tube.😺


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Well, @bcowen and @HTSkywalker, are you feeling lucky....or will you make @Paladin79 ‘s day....?...


I have a good friend who lives across the street from me. He got out of jury duty before when asked how many guns he owns lol. Most said one or two, his answer was 41. This is the guy I call if anything happens around my place when I am gone.😎


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> You can look up tube specs online or in manuals, but in my experience 6J5’s have a cumulative gain the same as a 6Sn7. Consider each one side of a 6SN7 without the extra shielding needed in a dual triode tube.😺


I get that, I just want to make sure I'm not, for example, comparing a late-'80's GE 6SN7 to a pair of Visseaux 6J5MGs and considering it a fair battle of the soundstages. Something less extreme, but I always try to make for A/B tests rather than multivariate tests, particularly when I can't necessarily define all the variables.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I have a good friend who lives across the street from me. He got out of jury duty before when asked how many guns he owns lol. Most said one or two, his answer was 41. This is the guy I call if anything happens around my place when I am gone.😎


I shot a gun once. It was neat.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> _His_ shed?...


I specifically said _*the*_ shed.  Perhaps I should have said Mrs. @Paladin79 's shed.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> If there's one thing I've learned is that Audio is not for the light-hearted -- or those whose feelings *or ears* are easily hurt.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Want to have a competition? Granted I doubt I can still put five arrows in a spot the size of a nickel now at 20 yards but a three inch bullseye is doable.😸


A crossbow requires skill *and* effort.  You should know me well enough by now that I'm quite allergic to the _effort_ part, so I'll use this.  5 shots, three-inch grouping at 20 yards?  Competition accepted.  Make it 50 yards for fun.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have a good friend who lives across the street from me. He got out of jury duty before when asked how many guns he owns lol. Most said one or two, his answer was 41. This is the guy I call if anything happens around my place when I am gone.😎


Ammo?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You should recruit, with catnip etc, Finnegan as your _cat burglar_:  quick, quiet...


I have no doubt Finnegan is smarter than my cats, but there are still limits when it comes to felines.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I specifically said _*the*_ shed.  Perhaps I should have said Mrs. @Paladin79 's shed.


It could be mine too one day, of course I would have to change the Duke/NC color scheme but it could be done. I am trying to mark my territory with some of my wooden and electronic creations so I do not have to talk about pottery when friends show up lol.

By the way @sam6550a has an excellent understanding and knowledge of tubes. We have similar backgrounds but throughout my career I kept getting pushed into management more than engineering and more digital than analog.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Could the wider soundstage from the DV be partially due to running 4 tubes versus 2 tubes, irrespective of type and brand?


Yes, IMO anyway.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> On a Carolina blue T-shirt, the red bullseye contrast would make it > doable ?...


I used to like you.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Ammo?


One generally goes with the other. During his career I got him jobs putting up warehouses for companies I was associated with so we think little of helping one another.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol. I have witnesses and in my younger days in order to win a bet I hit the red oval on a Marlboro pack at 100 yards, one shot. The gentleman who bet me was best man in my wedding.


Was the wedding before the bet or after?  Just wondering if the Marlboro pack was in his shirt pocket.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> I'd be more inclined to buy this if they weren't combining into a single socket. I dunno. I just tinker until crap sounds good or catches fire. Bonus points if it catches fire but sounds even more fire.


*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*
This.  Finally, a _*true*_ audiophile.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Then you could be like Bill and just say nothing.


Or be like Ripper and post endless and trivial blather.  Not sure which is better. Or worse.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

Yeah.  that 2x single triodes vs 1x dual triode thing -- it's all BS.  I keep forgetting that it all my stereo music keeps combining into a single head.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Give it a try and you be the judge.  1x 6SN7 vs 2x 6J5s.
> 
> Maybe @Paladin79 can provide more info.  He may even have verified via measurements.


I tried both setups and the dual 6J5 (2 x RCA and 2 X Sylvania BK Plate 3 holes ladder) have better separation than a single 6SN7 at least from the stock I carry.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

Watch it, Mr. Cowen!!  This thread would have like 8 posts and all of HF would have less than 20 if it weren't for me!!  Of course if you gifted me a DV amp, I might be more able to post substantive comments!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I keep forgetting that it's all the voices combining in my head (not including the dead people ones).


Here....fixed this for you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Was the wedding before the bet or after?  Just wondering if the Marlboro pack was in his shirt pocket.


This was after my wedding and the cigarette pack was in the middle of three bales of straw. Oh and I shoot instinctive, there were not sights on the bow, and naturally a recurve.

My friend had hit a paper plate three times at 80 yards to pull ahead, he shoots with sights. I bet enough to cover my loses and pull ahead on my shot. At 20 yards indoors we used to bet on how many of the other person's nocks we could damage with our own arrows as they sat in the target. Anyway back to tubes, I need to test a second GE 5998A, they are very easy to resolder.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Watch it, Mr. Cowen!!  This thread would have like 8 posts and all of HF would have less than 20 if it weren't for me!!  Of course if you gifted me a DV amp, I might be more able to post substantive comments!!


Hmmm I have a stock DV I would most likely trade for a bottle of scotch, my choice on the scotch.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Well, @bcowen and @HTSkywalker, are you feeling lucky....or will you make @Paladin79 ‘s day....?...


We bailed out 😂😜😜


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 26, 2021)

> Hmmm I have a stock DV I would most likely trade for a bottle of scotch, my choice on the scotch.



Stock??  If your choice costs any more than a bottle of Ole Smokey Pecan flavored Tennessee whisky, then I'll pass.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Well your escapade would be recorded in color or black and white if in night vision mode. With sound and a warning beep sent to my phone as any camera senses movement. 😜


Thanks for the info, We still need the IP and we're good to go 😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> And then there's the trained ATTACK CAT!!  Its dander attack is even more ferocious than its scratching and biting!!


That's the easiest part as we will have GE and stock DV tubes to bribe Finnegan with 😜


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Stock??  If your choice costs any more than a bottle of Ole Smokey Pecan flavored Tennessee whisky, then I'll pass.


Well it does not exactly compare to a certain amp that shall go unnamed, I will modify it one day but up to this point it has very few miles on it. Hmmm that whisky does sound tempting though lol.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That's the easiest part as we will have GE and stock DV tubes to bribe Finnegan with 😜


Finnegan heard the clink of two tubes I was taking a photo of this morn and he was right there just after I whisked them away to a safe place.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Watch it, Mr. Cowen!!  This thread would have like 8 posts and all of HF would have less than 20 if it weren't for me!!  Of course if you gifted me a DV amp, I might be more able to post substantive comments!!


....a gifted DV if in stock form would be an electronic Trojan horse...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Or be like Ripper and post endless and trivial blather.  Not sure which is better. Or worse.


....or which is which...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I used to like you.


It could be worse....I didn’t say that the T-shirt was on you....


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have a good friend who lives across the street from me. He got out of jury duty before when asked how many guns he owns lol. Most said one or two, his answer was 41. This is the guy I call if anything happens around my place when I am gone.😎


BY now you gave us all what we need, any neighborhood watch at night ? 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> A crossbow requires skill *and* effort.  You should know me well enough by now that I'm quite allergic to the _effort_ part, so I'll use this.  5 shots, three-inch grouping at 20 yards?  Competition accepted.  Make it 50 yards for fun.


Nice piece 🧐


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It could be worse....I didn’t say that the T-shirt was on you....


We I knew where this was headed.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Watch it, Mr. Cowen!!  This thread would have like 8 posts and all of HF would have less than 20 if it weren't for me!!  Of course if you gifted me a DV amp, I might be more able to post substantive comments!!


If I gifted you a frontal lobotomy, would that count?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Was the wedding before the bet or after?  Just wondering if the Marlboro pack was in his shirt pocket.


Most probably as he went missing since the wedding 😜😜


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> If I gifted you a frontal lobotomy, would that count?


I suppose a stock DV might sound better if I had one?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> A crossbow requires skill *and* effort.  You should know me well enough by now that I'm quite allergic to the _effort_ part, so I'll use this.  5 shots, three-inch grouping at 20 yards?  Competition accepted.  Make it 50 yards for fun.


Read your history sometime. Cross bows were handed out to people who had not done the training to pick up an English long bow lol.  I have competed with pistols as well, and bench rifles, and skeet shooting. Growing up with two older brothers, we often competed but I do less of it now. I am more apt to just carry a Walther PPK myself if the situation calls for it. I want to try ax throwing next time I visit my son, he has an outdoor setup. It makes more sense than drinking and throwing them inside a bar lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Watch it, Mr. Cowen!!  This thread would have like 8 posts and all of HF would have less than 20 if it weren't for me!!  Of course if you gifted me a DV amp, I might be more able to post substantive comments!!


Thanks for mentioning the Darkvoice as this thread should have been about it lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hmmm I have a stock DV I would most likely trade for a bottle of scotch, my choice on the scotch.


Around $20 above the DV Drop price lol


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I suppose a stock DV might sound better if I had one?


I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy...... Tom Waits is accredited with that line. That was a sort of music reference.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> BY now you gave us all what we need, any neighborhood watch at night ? 😃


Paladin79: Member of the Trade: Protection For Less


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Paladin79: Member of the Trade: Protection For Less


Um no lol but funny. I needed to carry when I began to help a friend who was a master jeweler. I used to trade electronics for some of his creations and help him when he did shows.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ok 5998a fan boys.... Here's my question, if I already have the Chatham 6as7g and a Chatham 5998... Is it worth grabbing that butt ugly tube? 🤔


----------



## Galapac (Apr 26, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Ok 5998a fan boys.... Here's my question, if I already have the Chatham 6as7g and a Chatham 5998... Is it worth grabbing that butt ugly tube? 🤔


Have you not answered your own question?
it's a good backup for a good price if you don't have many tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nah.  You'll probably hate it and it would leave more for me.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 26, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Nah.  You'll probably hate it and it would leave more for me.


It is ahead of the Tung Sol and Chatham in some categories and I got mine for a very low price but then I shipped it out to someone already, to improve the bass on his amp, so I need to get a couple more sometime.  I do prefer the ST shape but I also like tubes that punch well above their weight.

I do still have two I re-soldered and that was extremely easy and both are pushing ten hours each now with no issues.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 26, 2021)

Jokes aside I'm genuinely interested in sampling one, "might" grab one in the near future. Or borrow @bcowen copy. 😁 #truelies


----------



## DeweyCH

Welp. Yeah, it appears to be the case that a pair of tubes has a wider soundstage than a single tube. Tested tonight, and from a soundstage perspective:

CBS Hytron Brown Base 6SN7 + Tung-Sol 5998 -------------------------------> 5998 + pair of Super Silvertone 6L5s ---> Silvertones + pair of GEC 4079s. Power tube doesn't make a huge difference but boy, the difference between a single 6SN7 and a pair of 6J5 variants is pretty big.

Also I started this by testing my silver-base Sylvania 6SN7W but it just... stopped producing sound, after like 45 seconds of playing. Not a good sign. That wasn't a cheap tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Welp. Yeah, it appears to be the case that a pair of tubes has a wider soundstage than a single tube. Tested tonight, and from a soundstage perspective:
> 
> CBS Hytron Brown Base 6SN7 + Tung-Sol 5998 -------------------------------> 5998 + pair of Super Silvertone 6L5s ---> Silvertones + pair of GEC 4079s. Power tube doesn't make a huge difference but boy, the difference between a single 6SN7 and a pair of 6J5 variants is pretty big.
> 
> Also I started this by testing my silver-base Sylvania 6SN7W but it just... stopped producing sound, after like 45 seconds of playing. Not a good sign. That wasn't a cheap tube.


Silverstone's 6L5 are a very nice. And stopped producing sound....not good.  I'd have to try that GEC combo with the Silvertones, sounds like a winner.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Jokes aside I'm genuinely interested in sampling one, "might" grab one in the near future. Or borrow @bcowen copy. 😁 #truelies


I don't have one.   #truetruths    

I'm just being reserved and patient waiting for the #deepfake to come out.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I don't have one.   #truetruths
> 
> I'm just being reserved and patient waiting for the #deepfake to come out.


😂😂👍👍👍


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Also I started this by testing my silver-base Sylvania 6SN7W but it just... stopped producing sound, after like 45 seconds of playing. Not a good sign. That wasn't a cheap tube.



Supreme bummer.  Do the filaments still light up?  Very strange to have both channels die at the same time in a dual triode.  Anything is possible of course, but usually it's one triode or the other that either quits or starts sounding fuzzy or distorted.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 27, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Welp. Yeah, it appears to be the case that a pair of tubes has a wider soundstage than a single tube. Tested tonight, and from a soundstage perspective:
> 
> CBS Hytron Brown Base 6SN7 + Tung-Sol 5998 -------------------------------> 5998 + pair of Super Silvertone 6L5s ---> Silvertones + pair of GEC 4079s. Power tube doesn't make a huge difference but boy, the difference between a single 6SN7 and a pair of 6J5 variants is pretty big.
> 
> Also I started this by testing my silver-base Sylvania 6SN7W but it just... stopped producing sound, after like 45 seconds of playing. Not a good sign. That wasn't a cheap tube.


Glad that you have seen the light re: dual single triode tubes vs a single dual triode.

Sorry about the W.  I have  black base Ws but could never bring myself to pay metal base W prices.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> I make a paste, scrub gently, wipe down with damp thin cloth, wipe down with isopropyl alcohol. I keep the tube upright with the pins facing down the whole time......._my pots_......chef?


Did the trick, pins nice and shiny (for the most part, I didn't get too enthusiastic with the cleaning).

I'll have to work on my technique though. I also managed to inadvertantly clean the labels off a couple tubes. Granted one was a GE labeled Frankie, so one (Bill) could argue the tube is better for it.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Did the trick, pins nice and shiny (for the most part, I didn't get too enthusiastic with the cleaning).
> 
> I'll have to work on my technique though. I also managed to inadvertantly clean the labels off a couple tubes. Granted one was a GE labeled Frankie, so one (Bill) could argue the tube is better for it.


I definitely do not use the Bar Keeper’s Friend in sockets. I dip a pipe cleaner in Kontak and “scrub” the socket holes. They dry off quickly.


----------



## bcowen

Happy day!  The Tung-Sol 5998 is healed.  Suck and solder, and back to its original glory.  Dead quiet, no gremlins, no microphony at all. There were 3 pins that had almost no solder in them -- in fact, I re-heated and re-sucked them 3 times just to be sure as there was basically nothing being ejected from the Soldapullt.  Appeared that just the tip of those pins had solder on them.  I thought for a minute I was working on a GE tube.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I dip a pipe cleaner in Kontak and “scrub” the socket holes. They dry off quickly.



Same here.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Happy day!  The Tung-Sol 5998 is healed.  Suck and solder, and back to its original glory.  Dead quiet, no gremlins, no microphony at all. There were 3 pins that had almost no solder in them -- in fact, I re-heated and re-sucked them 3 times just to be sure as there was basically nothing being ejected from the Soldapullt.  Appeared that just the tip of those pins had solder on them.  I thought for a minute I was working on a GE tube.


I still think it committed tube-kari after one too many Marilyn Manson sessions.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I still think it committed tube-kari after one too many Marilyn Manson sessions.


Same as his Incubus badge trying to jump off his amp. That fall would have been equivalent to a human jumping from a ten story building!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Same as his Incubus badge trying to jump off his amp. That fall would have been equivalent to a human jumping from a ten story building!!!


Fortunately no animals were harmed in the process (@Ripper2860 wasn't here).


----------



## Ripper2860

The panther is my spirit animal, so I would have been fine.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 27, 2021)

My latest tube, the elusive 1961 Melz 1578.  
 Right now I have it matched with a 1959 Svetlana. It still needs to settle in but I do love the Melz from this time period, well balanced and accurate across the audio spectrum.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My latest tube, the elusive 1961 Melz 1578.   Right now I have it matched with a 1959 Svetlana. It still needs to settle in but I do love the Melz from this time period, well balanced and accurate across the audio spectrum.



Hoarder.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.


I bought one little tube!!!  Ignore the other Melz I happen to own.   And beside which, I am leaving the Foton's for you, I thought I was being magnanimous.

Now for something completely different a college professor friend is sending a phd candidate my way so I can help with his thesis. I will get paid to talk woodworking and electronics and I get to educate the guy on tubes. This should be interesting.  I have done this in the past but this one should be fun.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 27, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Now for something completely different a college professor friend is sending a phd candidate my way so I can help with his thesis. I will get paid to talk woodworking and electronics and I get to educate the guy on tubes. This should be interesting.  I have done this in the past but this one should be fun.


That sounds pretty interesting.  Does the guy know anything about tubes at all, or is he a total neophyte?

Funny, I was watching American Restoration today (love that show), and a guy brought in an old radio set he wanted restored. Didn't work, so they called in a guy that brought in a tube tester and found one that was dead.  "It's a pentode," he said.  So they sent 3 of the guys out hunting all around Las Vegas trying to find a replacement for this tube.  "It's a pentode, so we need to find a tube with 5 pins."  I almost fell out of my chair.  These guys could probably restore a dinosaur to perfection, but obviously haven't even a faint clue about tubes.  Have they never heard of Ebay?  LOL!!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I bought one little tube!!!  Ignore the other Melz I happen to own.   And beside which, I am leaving the Foton's for you, I thought I was being magnanimous.
> 
> Now for something completely different a college professor friend is sending a phd candidate my way so I can help with his thesis. I will get paid to talk woodworking and electronics and I get to educate the guy on tubes. This should be interesting.  I have done this in the past but this one should be fun.


 Thesis on hoarding tubes for a PhD in psychology ?


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I bought one little tube!!!  Ignore the other Melz I happen to own.   And beside which, I am leaving the Foton's for you, I thought I was being magnanimous.
> 
> Now for something completely different a college professor friend is sending a phd candidate my way so I can help with his thesis. I will get paid to talk woodworking and electronics and I get to educate the guy on tubes. This should be interesting.  I have done this in the past but this one should be fun.



What is the guy studying/getting his PhD in?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> What is the guy studying/getting his PhD in?


Russian tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> What is the guy studying/getting his PhD in?


Infomatics. Which is part of computer science as far as I know. My son was graduated before they added that term.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Russian tubes.


I hope to sneak tubes into the discussion😺 This may or may not work out if he is looking for someone who began learning a  new craft. I hope to find out more soon.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> It's a pentode


 Cool.  My 1st car was a '72 Ford Pentode.  😏


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Cool.  My 1st car was a '72 Ford Pentode.  😏


At least the tubes in it were better protected than the gas tank.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Cool.  My 1st car was a '72 Ford Pentode.  😏


Did it have a VT-231 engine?


----------



## Paladin79

Ok the 61 Melz is an absolute winner, I am hearing things in some classic rock I barely heard before. Separation is remarkable, mids are strong but I lose nothing in bass or high frequency. The 59 Svetlana is keeping up well, at this moment I do not care what power tube I am using, the Melz is taking over and driving one of my Incubus amps to extremes. There is absolutely no doubt on Eight Miles High that you are hearing a 12 string Rickenbacker in all its glory. The highs and tambourine on Good Vibrations jump out at you. The bass on This Love is over (Ray Montagne) is incredible. Both channels are crisp and sharp with the kind of sound stage you always hope to achieve. This tube pushes my custom Incubus to its limits, and the Utopias were made for such sound.      I own a lot of tubes and can achieve all kinds of combinations but few tubes hit all the marks for me, this one is doing just that.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 27, 2021)

Just when I thought I was done with 6SN7 family tube purchases you go and taunt me with one even more unobtanium than the 50's flat-plate Melz.  You sir, are a mean, mean person.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 27, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Just when I thought I was done with 6SN7 family tube purchases you go and taunt me with an even more unobtanium than the 50's flat-plate Melz.  You sir, are a mean, mean person.


I have no idea how many of these are out there, it was just a year I did not have.  Tonight all the stars aligned perhaps, a combination of my Gungnir cooking all day, or the wires and caps in my amp finally achieved the right amount of burn in but this tube is frigging incredible with a Svetlana. You know how good the solid plate Melz is and I love those tubes but this one, at this point in time is scary good. It is like a pencil is dropped by an audio engineer and you know the eraser landed first. Any little detail you wanted to listen to was right there and as clear as could be. The 61 shows why we should swap tubes, every now and then you can achieve something you thought impossible. It is like you can focus on any instrument or singer and there is nothing else going on, but you can do that with any part of the music and that portion is now all that is there.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Infomatics. Which is part of computer science as far as I know. My son was graduated before they added that term.



Usually there is a specialized discipline (e.g. Clinical or Biomedical Informatics, or Data Analytics/Info Visualization, etc.).  Am really curious to know what area it is.   Especially bringing in tubes to the discussion!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok the 61 Melz is an absolute winner, I am hearing things in some classic rock I barely heard before. Separation is remarkable, mids are strong but I lose nothing in bass or high frequency. The 59 Svetlana is keeping up well, at this moment I do not care what power tube I am using, the Melz is taking over and driving one of my Incubus amps to extremes. There is absolutely no doubt on Eight Miles High that you are hearing a 12 string Rickenbacker in all its glory. The highs and tambourine on Good Vibrations jump out at you. The bass on This Love is over (Ray Montagne) is incredible. Both channels are crisp and sharp with the kind of sound stage you always hope to achieve. This tube pushes my custom Incubus to its limits, and the Utopias were made for such sound.      I own a lot of tubes and can achieve all kinds of combinations but few tubes hit all the marks for me, this one is doing just that.


You'll need to send it to me so I can see if it passes the Marilyn Manson test.  Few tubes are worthy.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You'll need to send it to me so I can see if it passes the Marilyn Manson test.  *Few tubes are deserving of such torture*.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You'll need to send it to me so I can see if it passes the Marilyn Manson test.  Few tubes are worthy.


Until I get a few more of these I would not feel safe sampling it out.😽 I would need the usual affidavit stating no Marilyn Manson would be forced through the tube.

Not that I would not trust you of course.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Usually there is a specialized discipline (e.g. Clinical or Biomedical Informatics, or Data Analytics/Info Visualization, etc.).  Am really curious to know what area it is.   Especially bringing in tubes to the discussion!


I was hoping to add tubes to the discussion and most of my woodworking does involve tube amplifiers. Sorry I had the spelling wrong, here is some info that could help but I am not sure exactly how it applies to hobbies. I may or may not qualify to help because of my education, I am not exactly someone who took this up as a hobby with little background.   

https://informatics.indiana.edu/


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Until I get a few more of these I would not feel safe sampling it out.😽 I would need the usual affidavit stating no Marilyn Manson would be forced through the tube.
> 
> Not that I would not trust you of course.


A new EBay / Lowtechelec / Langrex / Upscale disclosure item?:  “Tubes are sold as is and [seller] warrants that no tube offered hereby has been Mansonised”.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2021)

I have formed a new US-based 501 c(3) non-profit named PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Tubes).  Its mission is to eliminate the systematic torture of vacuum tubes inflicted by excessive non-consensual fondling and the cruel practice of forced extended playback sessions of Marilyn Manson.  (Sometimes referred to as 'Cowening'.)
I will be posting up a link for donations soon. Won't you please help?  Together we can eliminate this horrible and abusive practice of 'Cowening'!!


----------



## SHIMACM

I really like Melz. Really much. But I admit that the only two tubes drives that reach the maximum score for me are the Tung-Sol 6j5g or gt and Fivre 6c5g, provided they are combined with the correct power valves.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I really like Melz. Really much. But I admit that the only two tubes drives that reach the maximum score for me are the Tung-Sol 6j5g or gt and Fivre 6c5g, provided they are combined with the correct power valves.


We all have personal preferences, I believe the Fivre made the top 52 tubes my group will be testing. 6j5's get tricky, they have channel separation going for them but that is only one factor. We also tried most any 7A4 pair we could find. As tubes with higher ratings come along, some decent tubes get bumped out of the top 52.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I have formed a new US-based 501 c(3) non-profit named PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Tubes).  Its mission is to eliminate the systematic torture of vacuum tubes inflicted by excessive non-consensual fondling and the cruel practice of forced extended playback sessions of Marilyn Manson.  (Sometimes referred to as 'Cowening'.)
> I will be *posting up a link for deductions soon.* Won't you please help?  Together we can eliminate this horrible and abusive practice of 'Cowening'!!


No need to post a link -- just send me your bank account info and I can start the deductions now.  No charge, of course.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> No need to post a link -- just send me your bank account info and I can start the deductions now.  No charge, of course.


@bcowen - this one's for you...this thread just reached page 666 and you were the first post in it!


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> @bcowen - this one's for you...this thread just reached page 666 and you were the first post in it!


ROFL!  Appropriate, huh?


----------



## Ripper2860

666  -- The mark of the Manson.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Until I get a few more of these I would not feel safe sampling it out.😽 I would need the usual affidavit stating no Marilyn Manson would be forced through the tube.
> 
> Not that I would not trust you of course.


Ok fine then, Mr. Judgmental (@Ripper2860 is _not_ afforded the "Mr." title).

I'll just put this on repeat instead.  I mean how can you not just love "the rusty nails in lidless eyes" lyrics?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ok fine then, Mr. Judgmental (@Ripper2860 is _not_ afforded the "Mr." title).
> 
> I'll just put this on repeat instead.  I mean how can you not just love "the rusty nails in lidless eyes" lyrics?


Ever heard the saying "you are what you eat"?  Obviously in your case, you are what you listen to.   By the way in the next couple days I will have built up a large enough supply of duct tape to wrap up my B&K 707 to send your way. You will be able to tell it by the handle poking up.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> (@Ripper2860 is _not_ afforded the "Mr." title)



I'm fine with His Royal Highness.


----------



## Galapac

Just to post on this page...great album that never gets old for me.
Bass player with a flair for lead solos.
I used to draw Eddie a lot back in the day...

Great use of the 5998A tube...(see how it brought it back on topic?)


----------



## Ripper2860

Galapac said:


> Great *abuse* of the 5998A tube...(see how it brought it back on topic?)



Fixed it for you.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 28, 2021)

On a more serious note, I plugged the Incubus into the big rig last night just to get a comparative evaluation.  Instead of the usual setup of Tidal -> Bifrost 2 -> Incubus -> HD6XX's, it was first the CD transport through the Cary (tubed output) DAC to the Incubus to the 'phones, and then secondly the turntable through the Alana preamp (needed the phono equalization) and then to the Incubus/'phones.  This particular piece sounds very nice via Tidal.  Nice step up going direct from the CD transport (but maybe the Cary DAC had a part in that). And then the LP.  I matched levels as best I could, although not scientifically or with a meter -- just by ear.  But this is where any ruminations about abandoning an LP setup due to the hassle and fuss become totally moot.  There is simply no comparison because the LP _totally_ smokes any digital version I've yet to hear.  It's like the difference between listening to a recording and actually being in the audience. And if anyone ever wondered why people go to the trouble of tubes, all they need to do is listen to this. Once. Even in a digital format (assuming they understand what harmonics are).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ever heard the saying "you are what you eat"?  Obviously in your case, you are what you listen to.   By the way in the next couple days I will have built up a large enough supply of duct tape to wrap up my B&K 707 to send your way. You will be able to tell it by the handle poking up.


If you ask nicely, you can get one of the counter people at the Post Office to wrap it up in USPS tape for free.  Ask me how I know this.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm fine with *He's Royally High* (again).


Fixed this for you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you ask nicely, you can get one of the counter people at the Post Office to wrap it up in USPS tape for free.  Ask me how I know this.  LOL!!


Seriously I have another plan and it should not require removing a bunch of tape lol. Just remember that when you send it back.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Seriously I have another plan and it should not require removing a bunch of tape lol. Just remember that when you send it back.


Send it back?  You never mentioned that part before.  I will need to cogitate on this new development for a bit.


----------



## Ripper2860

> Ripper2860 said:
> I'm fine with *He's Royally High* (again).





bcowen said:


> Fixed this for you.


I will neither confirm nor deny.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I have formed a new US-based 501 c(3) non-profit named PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Tubes).  Its mission is to eliminate the systematic torture of vacuum tubes inflicted by excessive non-consensual fondling and the cruel practice of forced extended playback sessions of Marilyn Manson.  (Sometimes referred to as 'Cowening'.)
> I will be posting up a link for donations soon. Won't you please help?  Together we can eliminate this horrible and abusive practice of 'Cowening'!!


You left out the money part of the appeal: “For a mere $59.98 per year, or $6.00 per month, or $0.17 per day YOU can give a tube the gift of hope, the gift of life without Manson (or bcowen’s other favourite ghouls...)”


----------



## bcowen

Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (Apr 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.







PS: was checking those today, but forced myself not to buy...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


Hmmm…
My magic decoder ring say they're vacuum tubes.
The Magic 8 ball says Thermionic valves.
I'll take my free smiley face now.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmmm…
> My magic decoder ring say they're vacuum tubes.
> The Magic 8 ball says Thermionic valves.
> I'll take my free smiley face now.


----------



## hottyson

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


Those are Minions!




Smiley face please.


----------



## Mr Trev

hottyson said:


> Those are Minions!
> 
> 
> Smiley face please.


Looking at your avatar, I'm very disappointed you didn't say

"12. 12 minions. Ha…ha…ha"


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


Miniature grain silos from Indiana...


----------



## Ripper2860

6N6Ps.  I'm even going to go out on a limb and say Foton Gold Grid.  Someone is getting ready for the Folksvagen amp, it seems!!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


6N6P_Fotons.jpg


----------



## bcowen

hottyson said:


> Those are Minions!
> 
> 
> Smiley face please.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Miniature grain silos from Indiana...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> 6N6Ps.  I'm even going to go out on a limb and say Foton Gold Grid.  Someone is getting ready for the Folksvagen amp, it seems!!



Although it pains me greatly:



Yes, early 60's Foton 6N6P's with box plates and the square dimpled foil getter (versus the later and more typical Russian UFO getter).  These are supposed to be the best, although I have no experience with these tubes at this point.  Figured I'd grab the good ones before the hoard rush after the Schiit is released.  I don't even have plans to buy that amp at this point, but if I do I'm set, and if not, these will probably sell for 4x what I paid for them.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> 6N6P_Fotons.jpg


Bingo, although Ripper beat you by 9 minutes.  Still earns a smiley, just smaller.  LOL!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Just when I thought I was done with 6SN7 family tube purchases you go and taunt me with one even more unobtanium than the 50's flat-plate Melz.  You sir, are a mean, mean person.


Most probably @Paladin79 hoarded all the stock


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have no idea how many of these are out there, it was just a year I did not have.  Tonight all the stars aligned perhaps, a combination of my Gungnir cooking all day, or the wires and caps in my amp finally achieved the right amount of burn in but this tube is frigging incredible with a Svetlana. You know how good the solid plate Melz is and I love those tubes but this one, at this point in time is scary good. It is like a pencil is dropped by an audio engineer and you know the eraser landed first. Any little detail you wanted to listen to was right there and as clear as could be. The 61 shows why we should swap tubes, every now and then you can achieve something you thought impossible. It is like you can focus on any instrument or singer and there is nothing else going on, but you can do that with any part of the music and that portion is now all that is there.


You are a natural born marketer  more tubes to add to the search and hoard list


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Whoever can guess what these are wins a free smiley face.


Those are deadly toys which may lead to deadly effects if THE wife knew about the price we are shelling on 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

And now the yearly 10 smileys award including a Manson pin 
Who/What the heck is this ?


----------



## Louisiana

Some new tubes...  




The KEN-RAD is as old as dinosaur poop!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Some new tubes...
> 
> 
> The KEN-RAD is as old as dinosaur poop!


Nice collection of power tubes 😍 the RCA is a nice all rounder, 6080s are the military equivalent of 6AS7G


----------



## Louisiana

Unfortunately the KEN-RAD appears to be defective.
When I use it, it hums and generates microphonie, and the DV also reacts when I knock on the housing.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Unfortunately the KEN-RAD appears to be defective.
> When I use it, it hums and generates microphonie, and the DV also reacts when I knock on the housing.


Heat your solder gun and do the necessary


----------



## Louisiana

HTSkywalker said:


> Heat your solder gun and do the necessary


Sorry, I've been rolling with tubes for about a month 
What is it necessary?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> Sorry, I've been rolling with tubes for about a month
> What is it necessary?


You need to re-solder, first by heating your solder gun and trying to go along the pins sides while holding the tube somehow horizontal and a bit tilted upwards. Do that for all pins till the solder re-fill inside. Clean and brush all pins after and try it. If this won't work, you will need to empty all the solder inside the pins and re-fill with fresh solder. More on this process was explained previously on head-fi
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-139#post-14881498


----------



## jonathan c

L


HTSkywalker said:


> And now the yearly 10 smileys award including a Manson pin
> Who/What the heck is this ?


Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer
(...basically the first computer, at Moore University)


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 29, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> L
> 
> Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer
> (...basically the first computer, at Moore University)


https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/birth-of-the-computer/4/78
"ENIAC lost one vacuum tube roughly every day or two. With almost 18,000 tubes"
There you go 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂
@bcowen will be pinning the Manson award as he is the officially decorated Manson Fan club president 😆😆


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> And now the yearly 10 smileys award including a Manson pin
> Who/What the heck is this ?


@Paladin79 's laptop?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 's laptop?


No wonder he have 18,000 tubes, probably after di-assembling his old computer lol


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> And now the yearly 10 smileys award including a Manson pin
> Who/What the heck is this ?


How would you like to have to resolder 144,000+ pins? (...assuming all octals)


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> How would you like to have to resolder 144,000+ pins? (...assuming all octals)


Will go deaf from the humming lol


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 's laptop?


Big lap !!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> No wonder he have 18,000 tubes, probably after di-assembling his old computer lol


All GE  😆🤪😆🤪 !!


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> How would you like to have to resolder 144,000+ pins? (...assuming all octals)


Back then they would just replace the tubes as they were cheaper, relatively speaking.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Back then they would just replace the tubes as they were cheaper, relatively speaking.


Plus, solder that had degraded from age would not have been a thing back then.  Well, excepting GE's of course.   

But all GE joking aside, I'm beginning to get more irritated with Tung-Sols. I've had more solder problems with them than I've had with Fotons, which were the previous reigning problem children.  Really?  Sad but true.  Don't get me wrong -- I love the sound of the Tung-Sols I have, but I'm getting about a 25% rate here of late with pin solder problems in them.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Plus, solder that had degraded from age would not have been a thing back then.  Well, excepting GE's of course.
> 
> But all GE joking aside, I'm beginning to get more irritated with Tung-Sols. I've had more solder problems with them than I've had with Fotons, which were the previous reigning problem children.  Really?  Sad but true.  Don't get me wrong -- I love the sound of the Tung-Sols I have, but I'm getting about a 25% rate here of late with pin solder problems in them.


Probably at some point in time, all solders regardless of manufacturer will reach its EOL


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Although it pains me greatly:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, early 60's Foton 6N6P's with box plates and the square dimpled foil getter (versus the later and more typical Russian UFO getter).  These are supposed to be the best, although I have no experience with these tubes at this point.  Figured I'd grab the good ones before the hoard rush after the Schiit is released.  I don't even have plans to buy that amp at this point, but if I do I'm set, and if not, these will probably sell for 4x what I paid for them.


What is this new Schiit you guys speak of?

I'd google it, but that whole lazy thing again…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What is this new Schiit you guys speak of?
> 
> I'd google it, but that whole lazy thing again…


The name has not been made official that I know of, but Folkvangr (or close) seems to be bandied about a lot.  It's a pure tube headphone amp using eight 6N6P's and a pair of 6N1P's.  Probably gonna be big (like in the largest Schiit chassis), and hot....these 6N6P's get plenty toasty while I've been testing them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 's laptop?


I have been meaning to ask Bill a question. I saw a cooking show the other night demonstrated by a woman from North Carolina. She said pretty much all households there cooked either collard greens or turnip greens. Personally I am leaning toward turnip for Bill, he has to have something to go with the whole pig bar-b-cue.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have been meaning to ask Bill a question. I saw a cooking show the other night demonstrated by a woman from North Carolina. She said pretty much all households there cooked either collard greens or turnip greens. Personally I am leaning toward turnip for Bill, he has to have something to go with the whole pig bar-b-cue.


Neither one hit my dinner plate by choice.  Turnip greens?  Just no.  Seriously no.  Now my mother-in-law (who actually lives in Oklahoma) can make collard greens edible, but still a far cry from _enjoyable_ to me.  I'd rather gag on TX BBQ.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Neither one hit my dinner plate by choice.  Turnip greens?  Just no.  Seriously no.  Now my mother-in-law (who actually lives in Oklahoma) can make collard greens edible, but still a far cry from _enjoyable_ to me. I'd rather gag on TX BBQ.


lol so anyway I am still listening to the 61 Melz and I have not noticed a lot of change with more than ten hours of cook time, it is still a remarkable tube and struck me as that from day one.


----------



## SHIMACM

SHIMACM said:


> I bought a Brimar 6sn7gt from him and it came with a problem. I asked for a refund on ebay and was refunded.



I want to rectify my comment regarding the seller Andro_4482 on Ebay.

I bought him a Brimar 6sn7gt that came with problems.

I filed a complaint on ebay and he returned the money and sent me another Brimar 6sn7gt.

The tube arrived today in perfect condition.

I contacted him to make sure he gets paid again for the new tube sent and he just didn't want to.

I insisted with him to make the payment, but he really didn't want to receive it.

Summary: I had a problem tube, another one in perfect condition and still with my money.

I didn't think it was fair to him, of course, but what can I do if he doesn't want to receive it.

At least, in my case, he was extremely honest.


----------



## DeweyCH

Anyone mind helping a little bit with a PCB question? I got a stack of PCBs designed for Alps RK27 pots, since the little pins are so delicate, and I'm a little confused. Here's a couple pics:








Looks simple - left, ground and right together in each of the 3-hole sets - but (keeping in mind I've never used a pre-printed PCB) it looks like both L and R channels in both in and out are making contact with the ground? Or am I misunderstanding the simple basics of PCB printing?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes.


----------



## jonathan c

SHIMACM said:


> I want to rectify my comment regarding the seller Andro_4482 on Ebay.
> 
> I bought him a Brimar 6sn7gt that came with problems.
> 
> ...


If he has a PayPal account separately, you can send $ there?...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Neither one hit my dinner plate by choice.  Turnip greens?  Just no.  Seriously no.  Now my mother-in-law (who actually lives in Oklahoma) can make collard greens edible, but still a far cry from _enjoyable_ to me. I'd rather gag on TX BBQ.


I’ll bet that you hid your vegetables at dinner in your pocket when growing up.....still do?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Although it pains me greatly:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, early 60's Foton 6N6P's with box plates and the square dimpled foil getter (versus the later and more typical Russian UFO getter).  These are supposed to be the best, although I have no experience with these tubes at this point.  Figured I'd grab the good ones before the hoard rush after the Schiit is released.  I don't even have plans to buy that amp at this point, but if I do I'm set, and if not, these will probably sell for 4x what I paid for them.


Woohoo!!  I finally won something!!

VH2 uses 2x 6N6Ps, so I purchased 4 of these older box plate | foil getter | Gold Grid Fotons for $15.  The seller sent me 2 additional for free. Two are rocking along in VH2 and I have backups at the ready.  They are much better than the Sovtek originally delivered in VH2.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Plus, solder that had degraded from age would not have been a thing back then.  Well, excepting GE's of course.
> 
> But all GE joking aside, I'm beginning to get more irritated with Tung-Sols. I've had more solder problems with them than I've had with Fotons, which were the previous reigning problem children.  Really?  Sad but true.  Don't get me wrong -- I love the sound of the Tung-Sols I have, but I'm getting about a 25% rate here of late with pin solder problems in them.


Could pins be totally solid (without solder filler) allowing for the tube to work properly?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I'd rather gag on TX BBQ.


I know that it is human nature to wolf something as delicious as TX BBQ down, but you need to slow down so as not to gag.  You must learn to slow down and savor the goodness that is TX BBQ.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Anyone mind helping a little bit with a PCB question? I got a stack of PCBs designed for Alps RK27 pots, since the little pins are so delicate, and I'm a little confused. Here's a couple pics:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks simple - left, ground and right together in each of the 3-hole sets - but (keeping in mind I've never used a pre-printed PCB) it looks like both L and R channels in both in and out are making contact with the ground? Or am I misunderstanding the simple basics of PCB printing?


If you have an ohmmeter you can quickly check connections but you are fine. Where did you get those?


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> If you have an ohmmeter you can quickly check connections but you are fine. Where did you get those?


Amazon


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> Amazon


Cool thanks


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 29, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Could pins be totally solid (without solder filler) allowing for the tube to work properly?


Exactly, should have been like that.
 Is it a small wire going inside the pin cylinder and filled with solder after ???


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 29, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Exactly and is it a small wire going inside the pin cylinder and filled with solder after ???


It is rarely filled and what you have to watch for is solder adhering to that center wire. You can have solder all around it and still have a poor solder joint. I have my tube tester heading to Mr Cowen soon. Spiffy is it not?😺😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It is rarely filled and what you have to watch for is solder adhering to that center wire. You can have solder all around it and still have a poor solder joint. I have my tube tester heading to Mr Cowen soon. Spiffy is it not?😺😺


I think that fixation on the colour will overwhelm @bcowen ’s ability to do anything with the tester...(repair, use, or otherwise)...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It is rarely filled and what you have to watch for is solder adhering to that center wire. You can have solder all around it and still have a poor solder joint. I have my tube tester heading to Mr Cowen soon. Spiffy is it not?😺😺


Back to the future spiffy 😍
Why do I have a feeling that a modern Ali Express $2.99 device should be there for tube testing purposes 😊


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Woohoo!!  I finally won something!!
> 
> VH2 uses 2x 6N6Ps, so I purchased 4 of these older box plate | foil getter | Gold Grid Fotons for $15.  The seller sent me 2 additional for free. Two are rocking along in VH2 and I have backups at the ready.  They are much better than the Sovtek originally delivered in VH2.


Copycat.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Could pins be totally solid (without solder filler) allowing for the tube to work properly?


Anything is possible.  I've never seen a tube like that before though.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Cool thanks


Onvas 10pcs PCB for ALPS RK27... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KVMYQT9?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Anything is possible.  I've never seen a tube like that before though.


I should check some current production Electro Harmonix tubes I bought for the CTH


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> ....the goodness that is TX BBQ.


This is defined in the Oxford English dictionary as an oxymoron.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Exactly, should have been like that.
> Is it a small wire going inside the pin cylinder and filled with solder after ???


Yes.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I’ll bet that you hid your vegetables at dinner in your pocket when growing up.....still do?


No, I always slipped them to the dog.  She'd eat anything that she perceived as "people" food.  Even TX BBQ, which she'd usually then vomit on the floor....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This is defined in the Oxford Cowen English American dictionary as an oxymoron _tx_ymoron


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is rarely filled and what you have to watch for is solder adhering to that center wire. You can have solder all around it and still have a poor solder joint. I have my tube tester heading to Mr Cowen soon. Spiffy is it not?😺😺


Extremely nice condition!  And it'll be even spiffier when it works again.  LOL!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Extremely nice condition!  And it'll be even spiffier when it works again.  LOL!!


That explains the praise and courtesy @Paladin79  is lately addressing you with 😜


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That explains the praise and courtesy @Paladin79  is lately addressing you with 😜


Don’t get used to it, once my tester is returned it is business as usual. Besides he OWE’S me lol. 

Really right now I need to get busy on more woodworking and at least two more Incubus amps, my own Cary amp, and other hobbies.


----------



## HTSkywalker

That should be similar to the Hickok 800 in term of functionality ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Don’t get used to it, once my tester is returned it is business as usual. Besides he OWE’S me lol.
> 
> Really right now I need to get busy on more woodworking and at least two more Incubus amps, my own Cary amp, and other hobbies.


Is the shed music box up and running?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the shed music box up and running?


Absolutely and the sound is better than other such Bluetooth devices I own.


I need to make a shelf for it.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> It is rarely filled and what you have to watch for is solder adhering to that center wire. You can have solder all around it and still have a poor solder joint. I have my tube tester heading to Mr Cowen soon. Spiffy is it not?😺😺


@Paladin79 and other B & K 707 users: You van test the 5998A tube in socket #25, 6V filament, sensitivity 60. 

I received my second 5998A from the ebay seller, it tests good but the two sections are gain mismatched by 10%, the first tube was spot on, not a big deal. It is now burning in in Signature Incubus Elegan along with a GE 6SN7GTB. Listening tests to follow.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Absolutely and the sound is better than other such Bluetooth devices I own.
> 
> I need to make a shelf for it.


Bass should sound nice given the wood used 😊


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> @Paladin79 and other B & K 707 users: You van test the 5998A tube in socket #25, 6V filament, sensitivity 60.
> 
> I received my second 5998A from the ebay seller, it tests good but the two sections are gain mismatched by 10%, the first tube was spot on, not a big deal. It is now burning in in Signature Incubus Elegan along with a GE 6SN7GTB. Listening tests to follow.


I may get more of the 5998A’s down the road, I have property taxes coming up soon and a few other expenses.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Bass should sound nice given the wood used 😊


A tiny subwooofer does not hurt as well.😺


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I may get more of the 5998A’s down the road, I have property taxes coming up soon and a few other expenses.


Just send the bill to @bcowen.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Just send the bill to @bcowen.


Good plan!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I may get more of the 5998A’s down the road, I have property taxes coming up soon and a few other expenses.


Jeff from Lowtechelec is fetching 1 for me 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A tiny subwooofer does not hurt as well.😺


Another home made project ? 😊


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> That explains the praise and courtesy @Paladin79  is lately addressing you with 😜


I must have missed those posts.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> That should be similar to the Hickok 800 in term of functionality ?


Just like it, only different.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Another home made project ? 😊


The subwoofer is in the bottom of this device.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I must have missed those posts.


He was not able to sustain those posts for long, he re-edited them on the spot 😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may get more of the 5998A’s down the road, I have property taxes coming up soon and a few other expenses.


Yes, the invoice for the tube tester may eclipse the property tax.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> He was not able to sustain those posts for long, he re-edited them on the spot 😜


Yes, I could feel his emotional distress from here.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes, the invoice for the tube tester may eclipse the property tax.


It is such a pretty shade of blue you should pay me. It is either NC or Duke blue, but who cares? 😺😺


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> @Paladin79 and other B & K 707 users: You van test the 5998A tube in socket #25, 6V filament, sensitivity 60.
> 
> I received my second 5998A from the ebay seller, it tests good but the two sections are gain mismatched by 10%, the first tube was spot on, not a big deal. It is now burning in in Signature Incubus Elegan along with a GE 6SN7GTB. Listening tests to follow.


Took me some googling, but I finally arrived at test settings for the 6N6P's in the Hickok.  Those tubes are a more recent design, and didn't show up in any of the Hickok setting books I have.  Fortunately there are people in some DIY forums that are smarter than me...kind of like all of them, I think.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Yes, the invoice for the tube tester may eclipse the property tax.


If all fails, try sam6550As discount tube tester revival options---no BBQ  required.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is such a pretty shade of blue you should pay me. It is either NC or Duke blue, but who cares? 😺😺


Ooohhhh, them there are fightin' words.  But I'll be magnanimous about it and try and remember which lead on a polarized electrolytic is positive.  Kind of try, anyway. 

If nothing else, I'll take a picture of it when it starts glowing Hoosier red when I first fire it up.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> If all fails, try sam6550As discount tube tester revival options---no BBQ  required.


But can you test tubes _other _than 6550A's in it?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> If all fails, try sam6550As discount tube tester revival options---no BBQ  required.


That is right you own a 707 as I recall. Bill specializes in tube testers so I should let him have a go first. Indiana is not known for BBQ lol, we have um, limestone and maybe these.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Ooohhhh, them there are fightin' words.  But I'll be magnanimous about it and try and remember which lead on a polarized electrolytic is positive.  Kind of try, anyway.
> 
> If nothing else, I'll take a picture of it when it starts glowing Hoosier red when I first fire it up.



You could never do that to another human being tube tester.  Even you have your limits.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ooohhhh, them there are fightin' words.  But I'll be magnanimous about it and try and remember which lead on a polarized electrolytic is positive.  Kind of try, anyway.
> 
> If nothing else, I'll take a picture of it when it starts glowing Hoosier red when I first fire it up.


LOL there is a question of the schematic being right about one electrolytic, but hopefully you already know that. If backwards they generally just explode quickly, be safe and lay it in the case before firing it up.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That is right you own a 707 as I recall. Bill specializes in tube testers so I should let him have a go first. Indiana is not known for BBQ lol, we have um, limestone and maybe these.


In a strange sort of way, that actually looks pretty delicious.  Maybe I'm just hungry.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> In a strange sort of way, that actually looks pretty delicious.  Maybe I'm just hungry.


It is one of the better parts of a pig, the tenderloin. In NC I believe they just cook the whole animal and hope for the best. Oh and add vinegar or some such.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The name has not been made official that I know of, but Folkvangr (or close) seems to be bandied about a lot.  It's a pure tube headphone amp using eight 6N6P's and a pair of 6N1P's.  Probably gonna be big (like in the largest Schiit chassis), and hot....these 6N6P's get plenty toasty while I've been testing them.


Gotcha. A Valhalla2 with serious roid-rage.
Or is Schiit trying to make Little-Dot knockoffs now.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> In a strange sort of way, that actually looks pretty delicious.  Maybe I'm just hungry.


Be adventuous---try somethingb new!


----------



## Ripper2860

sam6550a said:


> Be adventuous---try somethingb new!



Are you suggesting Bill be nice??


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL there is a question of the schematic being right about one electrolytic, but hopefully you already know that. If backwards they generally just explode quickly, be safe and lay it in the case before firing it up.


One thing I've found with most of these (vintage) tubes testers is that the schematic _cannot_ be relied on as far as component values.  The circuit diagram is (usually) fine, but it seems they changed a lot of component values over time on the fly without ever updating the schematic or documenting the changes.  I normally replace with the value that is printed on the cap rather than what the schematic may show.  Fortunately the majority of the resistors are carbon comps with color bands, and the scheme on those bands hasn't changed in all these years.  Usually it's a bad tube, cap (or caps), or a cracked resistor that cause most issues.  It gets trickier if one of the selenium rectifiers has gone bad, especially if you can't read the part number.  They can be replaced with a good old silicon diode, but also need a resistor in series to get the voltage drop back where it was with the selenium part.  Figuring out that resistor value can be fun sometimes.  The good part with the B&K's is there lots of room inside and stuff is easy to get to (compared to some of the Hickoks).  The bad part is they use 4x - 5x the number of caps that the Hickoks do.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You could never do that to another human being *(except @Ripper2860 )*. Even you have your *some* limits.


Fixed this for you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> One thing I've found with most of these (vintage) tubes testers is that the schematic _cannot_ be relied on as far as component values.  The circuit diagram is (usually) fine, but it seems they changed a lot of component values over time on the fly without ever updating the schematic or documenting the changes.  I normally replace with the value that is printed on the cap rather than what the schematic may show.  Fortunately the majority of the resistors are carbon comps with color bands, and the scheme on those bands hasn't changed in all these years.  Usually it's a bad tube, cap (or caps), or a cracked resistor that cause most issues.  It gets trickier if one of the selenium rectifiers has gone bad, especially if you can't read the part number.  They can be replaced with a good old silicon diode, but also need a resistor in series to get the voltage drop back where it was with the selenium part.  Figuring out that resistor value can be fun sometimes.  The good part with the B&K's is there lots of room inside and stuff is easy to get to (compared to some of the Hickoks).  The bad part is they use 4x - 5x the number of caps that the Hickoks do.


The tube failed on mine, a resistor was burned. The only function I lost was the shorts test. Everything looks shorted now. All other functions are fine as best I recall. There are a couple caps I replaced and I bagged up the old parts and the burned resistor.

Listening to Painting by Numbers by James McMurtry (his dad died not long ago, Larry McMurtry) this is a song I know well, his drummer gave me the CD years ago. The Melz from 1961 brings out new sounds. The beginning of Fanfare for the Common man is also amazing.  This tube is a keeper, I love the sound and I am just running a Svetlana winged C as power tube.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Gotcha. A Valhalla2 with serious roid-rage.
> Or is Schiit trying to make Little-Dot knockoffs now.


I seriously doubt Schiit is even thinking about a knock-off.  A Valhalla 2 with great big balls (that could drive lower impedance phones in an all-tube design) would be more my guess.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The tube failed on mine, a resistor was burned. The only function I lost was the shorts test. Everything looks shorted now. All other functions are fine as best I recall. There are a couple caps I replaced and I bagged up the old parts and the burned resistor.


Hope you remember where that resistor went.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hope you remember where that resistor went.  LOL!


I replaced it, as I did with the two caps I removed lol I just saved the old parts.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Be adventuous---try something new!


Give Bangybang a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ rating...


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> It is one of the better parts of a pig, the tenderloin. In NC I believe they just cook the whole animal and hope for the best. Oh and add vinegar or some such.


So that's what everybody that goes to the Indy 500 is talking about when the mention tenderloin sandwiches


----------



## therremans

Dang some people are asking a lot of money for the melz, doesn’t mean these will sell though. The seller states they are from 1978-1980, which is a lot later than I thought were desired.. is he dreaming?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quad-of-Me...-/224443729716?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> So that's what everybody that goes to the Indy 500 is talking about when the mention tenderloin sandwiches


yep, and the tenderloin has to be massive compared to the bun, that is a must.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Dang some people are asking a lot of money for the melz, doesn’t mean these will sell though. The seller states they are from 1978-1980, which is a lot later than I thought were desired.. is he dreaming?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quad-of-Me...-/224443729716?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


Quads can be rare, and singles can fetch $120 up, but selling those used as a quad bothers me, and I am not a huge fan of those years lol.


----------



## Galapac (Apr 29, 2021)

therremans said:


> Dang some people are asking a lot of money for the melz, doesn’t mean these will sell though. The seller states they are from 1978-1980, which is a lot later than I thought were desired.. is he dreaming?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quad-of-Me...-/224443729716?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


Some throw the line out, see if anything‘s biting...
I’ve seen some tubes on the bay for months on end with high price tags by the same sellers.


----------



## wideload

Noob question here. I have worked for decades as a bassist, and you never run a tube amp without a speaker load. Does this also apply to non 300 watt amps like Darkvoice? Like, do I need headphones plugged in during burn-ins, or before turning the amp on? Thanks for the help! (I know this probably doesn’t belong in this Scotch/BBQ/soldering forum...)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 29, 2021)

Ideally any OTL amp should have a load present at power on and while playing.  I always have HPs connected when powered on.


----------



## wideload

Thanks. I renounce my allegiance to @bcowen and transfer it to you!


----------



## Galapac

Ripper2860 said:


> Ideally any OTL amp should have a load present at power on and while playing.  I always have HPs connected when powered on.


I’ve read the exact opposite that it is wise to not have headphones pliugged in when turning on/off a tube amp. The headphones drivers can overload if the tube goes bad causing a loud popping sound and blowing the headphone drivers. I had the popping sound happen to me with a new NOS tube I received and was lucky my headphones did not blow but it was a scary sound.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I’ve read the exact opposite that it is wise to not have headphones pliugged in when turning on/off a tube amp. The headphones drivers can overload if the tube goes bad causing a loud popping sound and blowing the headphone drivers. I had the popping sound happen to me with a new NOS tube I received and was lucky my headphones did not blow but it was a scary sound.


I agree: with tube h/p/a, I will always plug in after amp on, take out before amp off.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Some throw the line out, see if anything‘s biting...
> I’ve seen some tubes on the bay for months on end with high price tags by the same sellers.


Otis Galapac?..”sitting by the tubes on EBay “


----------



## wideload

Wow, such competition for my undying devotion (until I change my mind!). Thanks for the help. I”ll use my cheap bluetooth headphones with a wire as sacrificial lambs, and cover both bets.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 30, 2021)

@bcowen : Took me some googling, but I finally arrived at test settings for the 6N6P's in the Hickok.  Those tubes are a more recent design, and didn't show up in any of the Hickok setting books I have.  Fortunately there are people in some DIY forums that are smarter than me...kind of like all of them, I think.  
Accepting admittance to the old fart club seems due by now, am way beyond it by now 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 30, 2021)

Edited


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I replaced it, as I did with the two caps I removed lol I just saved the old parts.


We all have the tendency of keeping even the defected and old parts 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 30, 2021)

wideload said:


> Noob question here. I have worked for decades as a bassist, and you never run a tube amp without a speaker load. Does this also apply to non 300 watt amps like Darkvoice? Like, do I need headphones plugged in during burn-ins, or before turning the amp on? Thanks for the help! (I know this probably doesn’t belong in this Scotch/BBQ/soldering forum...)


Is that what we turned this forum into 😜😜😜 I think woodworking and painting should  also be included in the above.
it’s one of the most enjoyable forum and it’s mainly about tubes and.....
We do mention the DV every now and then though lol.
Kidding aside and to answer your question, the DV Could be used as a pre-amp and be fired up without any load attached.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I’ve read the exact opposite that it is wise to not have headphones pliugged in when turning on/off a tube amp. The headphones drivers can overload if the tube goes bad causing a loud popping sound and blowing the headphone drivers. I had the popping sound happen to me with a new NOS tube I received and was lucky my headphones did not blow but it was a scary sound.


Well I kind of second that, better risk the DV than risking a damage to expensive cans as the DV tends to pop loudly sometimes, besides why would you need a plugged HP if this is also intended as a pre-amp


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I agree: with tube h/p/a, I will always plug in after amp on, take out before amp off.


Same


----------



## HTSkywalker

wideload said:


> Wow, such competition for my undying devotion (until I change my mind!). Thanks for the help. I”ll use my cheap bluetooth headphones with a wire as sacrificial lambs, and cover both bets.


Now with that settled (kinda) back to the Scotch/BBQ/soldering business 😀😀😀


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Now with that settled (kinda) back to the Scotch/BBQ/soldering business 😀😀😀


More precisely: back to the business of soldering tube pins after filling up on Scotch & BBQ...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> More precisely: back to the business of soldering tube pins after filling up on Scotch & BBQ...


Still coffee time at this side of the 🌎😊


----------



## bcowen

wideload said:


> Noob question here. I have worked for decades as a bassist, and you never run a tube amp without a speaker load. Does this also apply to non 300 watt amps like Darkvoice? Like, do I need headphones plugged in during burn-ins, or before turning the amp on? Thanks for the help! (I know this probably doesn’t belong in this Scotch/BBQ/soldering forum...)


As with most everything audio, it depends.  Depends on the design of the amp and assuming we're talking only about tube amps here.  Most transformer coupled designs (eg: utilizing output transformers) are not happy without a load connected.  But even with them, it's design dependent -- Cary amps can be run all day with no load attached without issue and I've personally seen racks filled with new amps going through a 48-hour burn-in after assembly (no load attached) to weed out potential infant mortality problems.  I've also seen O&M manuals on some other transformer-coupled amps that specifically warn NOT to turn the amp on without a load connected.  As the DV has no output transformers, there is little (and probably no) risk to run them with no load attached, either through the HP output or line level outputs.  Not sure on the Incubus -- @Paladin79 would need to chime in if there is any risk running without a load connected.  I've seen a number of pictures he's posted though with the power button lit up and no HP's connected so I'm guessing it's not an issue, but that's only an assumption on my part.   

I'd bet most of the popping results from having no soft-start circuitry built into the DV, and the full B+ voltage hitting the plates before the cathodes warm up and get the bias to the right voltage.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> More precisely: back to the business of soldering tube pins after filling up on Scotch & BBQ...


If you want to fill up your pins with scotch and BBQ, more power to 'ya man.  Just be sure it's NC BBQ, or the sound will likely take a really bad turn for the worse.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> As with most everything audio, it depends.  Depends on the design of the amp and assuming we're talking only about tube amps here.  Most transformer coupled designs (eg: utilizing output transformers) are not happy without a load connected.  But even with them, it's design dependent -- Cary amps can be run all day with no load attached without issue and I've personally seen racks filled with new amps going through a 48-hour burn-in after assembly (no load attached) to weed out potential infant mortality problems.  I've also seen O&M manuals on some other transformer-coupled amps that specifically warn NOT to turn the amp on without a load connected.  As the DV has no output transformers, there is little (and probably no) risk to run them with no load attached, either through the HP output or line level outputs.  Not sure on the Incubus -- @Paladin79 would need to chime in if there is any risk running without a load connected.  I've seen a number of pictures he's posted though with the power button lit up and no HP's connected so I'm guessing it's not an issue, but that's only an assumption on my part.
> 
> I'd bet most of the popping results from having no soft-start circuitry built into the DV, and the full B+ voltage hitting the plates before the cathodes warm up and get the bias to the right voltage.


I exceeded a 100 hour operation time on the DV, either by powering it without load at all, keeping it on without a power tube to burn-in driver's tubes or as a pre-amp with no cans attached. No problems whatsoever.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If you want to fill up your pins with scotch and BBQ, more power to 'ya man.  Just be sure it's NC BBQ, or the sound will likely take a really bad turn for the worse.


And if it is TX BBQ (txymoron?)...the outcome is...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> As with most everything audio, it depends.  Depends on the design of the amp and assuming we're talking only about tube amps here.  Most transformer coupled designs (eg: utilizing output transformers) are not happy without a load connected.  But even with them, it's design dependent -- Cary amps can be run all day with no load attached without issue and I've personally seen racks filled with new amps going through a 48-hour burn-in after assembly (no load attached) to weed out potential infant mortality problems.  I've also seen O&M manuals on some other transformer-coupled amps that specifically warn NOT to turn the amp on without a load connected.  As the DV has no output transformers, there is little (and probably no) risk to run them with no load attached, either through the HP output or line level outputs.  Not sure on the Incubus -- @Paladin79 would need to chime in if there is any risk running without a load connected.  I've seen a number of pictures he's posted though with the power button lit up and no HP's connected so I'm guessing it's not an issue, but that's only an assumption on my part.
> 
> I'd bet most of the popping results from having no soft-start circuitry built into the DV, and the full B+ voltage hitting the plates before the cathodes warm up and get the bias to the right voltage.


I have no problem running Incubus without load when I first turn it on, especially when testing new tubes that could have issue but then I generally hook up less expensive headphones as a load if I am burning in tubes. I have run some Incubi to extremes just to see what might fail and no harm was ever done running one without a load because I tried that as well.


----------



## Paladin79

Getting back to driver and power tubes, I just completed work on a prototype for a gentleman from Chicago. The complaint was it measured well but did not sound that good and needed more base. After extensive work on the tube circuits and output stage I sent him a 1953 Foton and a GE 5998A.  He absolutely loved the new sound even with other tubes but the combination I sent him did far more for the bass. Some of you have heard both types of tubes and using them in conjunction can be a real treat for some types of music. They are not something I run day in and day out but they have their place if you want to shape the sound of an amp just a bit.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have no problem running Incubus without load when I first turn it on, especially when testing new tubes that could have issue but then I generally hook up less expensive headphones as a load if I am burning in tubes. I have run some Incubi to extremes just to see what might fail and no harm was ever done running one without a load because I tried that as well.


This public statement could be considered as manufacturer’s lifetime warranty 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

For now @Paladin79  should resist the high temptation to tease Bill till the tester business is concluded 😀
Am sure it’s hard to do 😛


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> This public statement could be considered as manufacturer’s lifetime warranty 😊


LOL no.  It just means I do things like run my personal Incubus without rubber feet so it gets less air flow so I can see if anything fails. It is still quite good with no parts failing. By doing this I know that other amps should be fine with a bit more ventilation.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL no.  It just means I do things like run my personal Incubus without rubber feet so it gets less air flow so I can see if anything fails. It is still quite good with no parts failing. By doing this I know that other amps should be fine with a bit more ventilation.


Location and temperature dependent as well. Probably Bill will take it all the way to the Grand Canyon to prove you wrong   😊


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 30, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I’ve read the exact opposite that it is wise to not have headphones pliugged in when turning on/off a tube amp. The headphones drivers can overload if the tube goes bad causing a loud popping sound and blowing the headphone drivers. I had the popping sound happen to me with a new NOS tube I received and was lucky my headphones did not blow but it was a scary sound.


That's the wonderful part of this hobby -- there's multiple and contrary opinions for virtually everything.  I've read several that stated that what is best for the amp and tubes is to have a load present when powered on.  I responded to what is best for the amp -- not the HPs.  I stand by my comment that OTL maps should ideally have a load when powered on or operating.  Sure there's always the possibility that a catastrophic tube failure could take out a HP, but one fact does not negate the other.  Operating the amp with no load for extended times w/o a HP, such as when burning in the amp or tubes is not the ideal for these types of amps.  If anything it contributes to earlier tube or amp demise.  If there's angst about powering on/off an amp on with HPs connected, then plug it in shortly after power-on and unplug just before power-off.   I would not run the amp with no load for long periods.

(I too use cheap HPs for tube burn-in.     )


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> For now @Paladin79  should resist the high temptation to tease Bill till the tester business is concluded 😀
> Am sure it’s hard to do 😛


We exist in a kind of mutualism, he knows if asked I will help him with various things and he does the same for me. The kidding around is just natural and allows both of us to have some fun. Some of my work gets fairly intense so talking to him is a great outlet as well as many others I run into on various threads.


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> This public statement could be considered as manufacturer’s lifetime warranty 😊


Better than the standard Georgia warranty: "If it breaks, you get to keep all of the pieces".


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Location and temperature dependent as well. Probably Bill will take it all the way to the Grand Canyon to prove you wrong   😊


If not Grand Canyon, the Mariana Trench?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> That's the wonderful part of this hobby -- there's multiple and contrary opinions for virtually everything.  I've read several that stated that what is best for the amp and tubes is to have a load present when powered on.  I responded to what is best for the amp -- not the HPs.  I stand by my comment that OTL maps should ideally have a load when powered on or operating.  Sure there's always the possibility that a catastrophic tube failure could take out a HP, but one fact does not negate the other.  Operating the amp with no load for extended times w/o a HP, such as when burning in the amp or tubes is not the ideal for these types of amps.  If anything it contributes to earlier tube or amp demise.  If there's angst about powering on/off an amp on with HPs connected, then plug it in shortly after power-on and unplug just before power-off.   I would not run the amp with no load for long periods.
> 
> (I too use cheap HPs for tube burn-in.     )


I also use my AKG workhorse for tube burning 😊


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And if it is TX BBQ (txymoron?)...the outcome is...


Then the old adage applies:  garbage in, garbage out.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I seriously doubt Schiit is even thinking about a knock-off.  A Valhalla 2 with great big balls (that could drive lower impedance phones in an all-tube design) would be more my guess.


That would be nice...I bought the last of the Mjolnir II and had the capacitors swapped out by @ksorota...amazing sound...unbelievable with Lansdale 12au7s....GEC A2900s next...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Anyone with experience with the Bottlehead MorePlay ?
am thinking of introducing it between my DAC and speakers amp as an additional separate input.
I believe it’s been released lately as a replacement to the famous Foreplay
https://bottlehead.com/product/moreplay-preamplifier-kit/


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone with experience with the Bottlehead MorePlay ?
> am thinking of introducing it between my DAC and speakers amp as an additional separate input.
> I believe it’s been released lately as a replacement to the famous Foreplay
> https://bottlehead.com/product/moreplay-preamplifier-kit/


Not me. I may be building a couple preamps using RCA red base 5692's just to see how it sounds.

I need to get busy building a couple Incubus amps right after I build my wife a custom shelf for her audio system.  I need to have multiple outlets hidden so I will be trying to figure that out this weekend.


----------



## Paladin79

Oh and my B&K is on the way to Mr. Cowen. My wife helped wrap it and compared to some of the taped up messes Bill has received, the wrapping job on this is something he will want to tell his grand children about.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get busy building a couple Incubus amps right after I build my wife a custom shelf for her audio system.  I need to have multiple outlets hidden so I will be trying to figure that out this weekend.



Just be sure to get the right outlets, or I'm telling Mrs. @Paladin79 that you cheaped out on her. 

(I'd consider a small bribe if that would assist in continued marital harmony).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and my B&K is on the way to Mr. Cowen. My wife helped wrap it and compared to some of the taped up messes Bill has received, the wrapping job on this is something he will want to tell his grand children about.


Cool.  I already have some Carolina Blue paint so I can re-paint the exterior and eliminate any future confusion over the color.  All they had was latex paint, but at least it will dry quickly and the paint brush marks shouldn't show _too_ much. Hopefully.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just be sure to get the right outlets, or I'm telling Mrs. @Paladin79 that you cheaped out on her.
> 
> (I'd consider a small bribe if that would assist in continued marital harmony).


Oh geez, there is a Cowen born every minute.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Cool.  I already have some Carolina Blue paint so I can re-paint the exterior and eliminate any future confusion over the color.  All they had was latex paint, but at least it will dry quickly and the paint brush marks shouldn't show _too_ much. Hopefully.


Just try to end each brush stroke on the upstroke. I have seen some of your work and you should probably practice on your car some more.


----------



## Ripper2860

You're a good man, Tom.  Not bringing up the recent deportation of Bill's mail-order bride was definitely the right thing to do, despite Bill being the one to turn her in.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 30, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have seen some of your work and you should probably practice on your car some more.


I don't know.  That really does look almost exactly like Bill's Mazda RX-8.  The only thing missing is the mixed puddle of coolant and oil underneath.  **


** I believe I've hit my quota of Bill jabs, so I will refrain from any more until tomorrow.  Bill's assigned jab quota has a pretty high per jab fee for going over the monthly plan's limits.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 30, 2021)

My next loaner amp will be Spalted maple and Purple Heart. I am in the very early stages of the build.  It will be heading to Vermont then a couple stops in California. Most likely with a Svetlana power tube and I may grab a couple more Melz so I can sample those to folks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just try to end each brush stroke on the upstroke. I have seen some of your work and you should probably practice on your car some more.


Oh please.  I replaced the tires last month.  You could at least post a current picture.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You're a good man, Tom.  Not bringing up the recent deportation of Bill's mail-order bride was definitely the right thing to do, despite Bill being the one to turn her in.


I found out she was your sister.  I had no choice.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@bcowen that car goes well with Fotons - just sayin': https://www.google.com/search?q=Zaporozhets+new+old+stock&source=lnms&tbm=isch


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't know.  That really does look almost exactly like Bill's Mazda RX-8.  The only thing missing is the mixed puddle of coolant and oil underneath.  **
> 
> 
> ** I believe I've hit my quota of Bill jabs, so I will refrain from any more until tomorrow.  Bill's assigned jab quota has a pretty high per jab fee for going over the monthly plan's limits.


Actually, that's about the only thing that actually *is* missing IRL.  I have new plugs, new ignition coils, new spark plug wires, a new starter, a new SSV solenoid, and a new catalytic converter all laying on the floor in the garage just waiting on the motivation to put them in.  The SSV is giving me a check engine light. But is it the solenoid that's gone bad, or the valve itself that's stuck?  Tear apart one half of the engine to get to one, and the other half to get to the other.  Grrrrrr.  Oh, and I need to get my Takata airbags replaced, but unfortunately there's not a Mazda dealer within 200 miles that I'd trust to even pull my car into one of their service bays. They're all total crooks and mostly incompetent.  On the bright side, my monthly car payment remains at $0.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually, that's about the only thing that actually *is* missing IRL.  I have new plugs, new ignition coils, new spark plug wires, a new starter, a new SSV solenoid, and a new catalytic converter all laying on the floor in the garage just waiting on the motivation to put them in.  The SSV is giving me a check engine light. But is it the solenoid that's gone bad, or the valve itself that's stuck?  Tear apart one half of the engine to get to one, and the other half to get to the other.  Grrrrrr.  Oh, and I need to get my Takata airbags replaced, but unfortunately there's not a Mazda dealer within 200 miles that I'd trust to even pull my car into one of their service bays. They're all total crooks and mostly incompetent.  On the bright side, my monthly car payment remains at $0.  LOL!


I tend to drive a Mazda for four years and buy a new one, I have no room for car parts.😺


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I found out she was your sister.  I had no choice.


Yeah.  She said she saw it coming.  She could tell it was quite a blow to your ego knowing that you'd married so far above your station.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't know.  That really does look almost exactly like Bill's Mazda RX-8.  The only thing missing is the mixed puddle of coolant and oil underneath.  **
> 
> 
> ** I believe I've hit my quota of Bill jabs, so I will refrain from any more until tomorrow.  Bill's assigned jab quota has a pretty high per jab fee for going over the monthly plan's limits.


At least it is not on cinder blocks with such graffiti sprayed on in Hoosier red as “bcunc 19XX”


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 30, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok.  After doing some direct comparison between Tung-Sol 5998 and GE 5998A, my thoughts are as follows...
> 
> 1. It's REALLY close!
> 
> ...


The review by @Ripper2860 of the GE 5998a is one of the most “hit the bullseye” that I have read. Based on that review, I have been trying the 5998a joined by Amperex PQ 7308s in a Woo WA3. Bass is DEEP, fulsome, and detailed; midrange has dimensional body, occupies space in a convincing manner; treble is extended with airiness and no stridency. Overall soundstaging is excellent with easily discernible space between instruments / singers. I think that the 5998a / PQ 7308 grouping is serendipitous indeed!


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The review by @Ripper2860 of the GE 5998a is one of the most “hit the bullseye” that I have read. Based on that review, I have been trying the 5998a joined by Amperex PQ 7308s in a Woo WA3. Bass is DEEP, fulsome, and detailed; midrange has dimensional body, occupies space in a convincing manner; treble is extended with airiness and no stridency. Overall soundstaging is excellent with easily discernible space between instruments / singers. I think that the 5998a / PQ 7308 grouping is serendipitous indeed!


Except that I rarely use the word serendipitous I agree with your assessment. 😺 more and more people are trying this tube and it is holding its own. One day Sacha Baron Cowen needs to jump on board and give it his blessing so we are all in agreement lol.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Except that I rarely use the word serendipitous I agree with your assessment. 😺 more and more people are trying this tube and it is holding its own. One day Sacha Baron Cowen needs to jump on board and give it his blessing so we are all in agreement lol.


An instance of: “we hold these truths to be self-evident”...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 30, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> An instance of: “we hold these truths to be self-evident”...


Another friend just got one, the more opinions the better. The accuracy of large numbers.


----------



## therremans

Do any of you own this guy? (2C51)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Another friend just got one, the more opinions the better. The accuracy of large numbers.


Waiting for mine as well


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The review by @Ripper2860 of the GE 5998a is one of the most “hit the bullseye” that I have read. Based on that review, I have been trying the 5998a joined by Amperex PQ 7308s in a Woo WA3. Bass is DEEP, fulsome, and detailed; midrange has dimensional body, occupies space in a convincing manner; treble is extended with airiness and no stridency. Overall soundstaging is excellent with easily discernible space between instruments / singers. I think that the 5998a / PQ 7308 grouping is serendipitous indeed!


How does the WA-6 fare with planars if you lower the impedance ?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> How does the WA-6 fare with planars if you lower the impedance ?


The Woo WA6, which can be seen at the edge of the photograph, works exceedingly well driving my 20-ohm Audeze LCD-X. When I use this pairing, the tubes in action are: RCA 5U4G rectifier and a pair of CBS 5692 (on Woo adapters). The sound reproduced is highly detailed, lively, has very wide dynamic range, excellent depth and breadth. I do not get much sense of an output transformer roll-off in the lower bass; at the other end of the spectrum, air and extension.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The Woo WA6, which can be seen at the edge of the photograph, works exceedingly well driving my 20-ohm Audeze LCD-X. When I use this pairing, the tubes in action are: RCA 5U4G rectifier and a pair of CBS 5692 (on Woo adapters). The sound reproduced is highly detailed, lively, has very wide dynamic range, excellent depth and breadth. I do not get much sense of an output transformer roll-off in the lower bass; at the other end of the spectrum, air and extension.


Good to hear👍, Woo makes great products.
I have a friend who owns the LCD-X and use it with Reveal +, makes all the difference in the world as well


----------



## bcowen (May 1, 2021)

therremans said:


> Do any of you own this guy? (2C51)


I have one (as in *1*), but it's not a pinched bottle variety.  I would guess the one you're showing is an earlier version.  Mine is a nice sounding tube, but I prefer the Western Electric 396A to it.  But again, mine is likely of much later manufacture (it's pre-JJ where everything went to hell), but guessing it's 1960-something production.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Another friend just got one, the more opinions the better. The accuracy of large numbers.


There's an old tale about lemmings that comes to mind...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I tend to drive a Mazda for four years and buy a new one, I have no room for car parts.😺


I bought mine from a dealer in Tulsa that was an excellent dealership.  After moving to NC, things changed (as far as dealerships).  Mine just passed its 16th birthday, and other than needing quite a bit of maintenance (which I can fortunately do the majority of myself), it still runs like a bat out of hell.  Something about a 9250 RPM redline that's just so addicting.   I'll get rid of it when the motor dies...may be tomorrow, may go for another 10 years, who knows (although in 10 years I probably won't be able to get in and out of it without assistance). LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's an old tale about lemmings that comes to mind...


Now now, there are not many 5998's out there in this price range and there are several NOS available. One day you might find out for yourself what others are saying.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  She said she saw it coming.  She could tell it was quite a blow to your ego knowing that you'd married so far above your station.


Well, at the time $39.95 was all I could afford.


----------



## Ripper2860

I told her that her charity work would come back to haunt her.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I told her that her charity work would come back to haunt her.


I *did* try.  Really.  At the end, I just grew weary of her incessant complaining that my tubes were too big.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 1, 2021)

Really?  That's it?

OK.  You need to be on the next shuttle off this thread.  Your 'witty response' guest privileges card has been revoked.    **

** My disappointment in you is such that I can't even look at you right now.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I bought mine from a dealer in Tulsa that was an excellent dealership.  After moving to NC, things changed (as far as dealerships).  Mine just passed its 16th birthday, and other than needing quite a bit of maintenance (which I can fortunately do the majority of myself), it still runs like a bat out of hell.  Something about a 9250 RPM redline that's just so addicting.   I'll get rid of it when the motor dies...may be tomorrow, may go for another 10 years, who knows (although in 10 years I probably won't be able to get in and out of it without assistance). LOL!


It is a lot easier getting in and out of sport cars if you take the tube stash out of your pockets.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> It is a lot easier getting in and out of sport cars if you take the tube stash out of your pockets.


That sounds logical and practical and all, but _has_ to be much more difficult in practice.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now now, there are not many 5998's out there in this price range and there are several NOS available. One day you might find out for yourself what others are saying.


Anything is possible, of course, but remember that I'm not buying any more tubes.


----------



## therremans

This 63' Bendix 6080WB arrived yesterday and I was able to listen to it for several hours last night. It is indeed NOS in the original box. I am so happy to have finally found one. Hickok 800A tests it balanced and I believe strong, even though I can't figure out a bogey rating for it since it goes off the charts using the roll chart _English _value. I used the 15k line on the meter and both triodes test at 10,750/10,750.

These definitely need some warm up time before the plates start to glow and it's able to perform at it's peak, but boy does it sound great. They say these need burn in time of up to 100 hours. From memory, this does seem to outshine my Chatham solid graphite plates. But I need to revisit it and use the same driver tube for accurate comparisons, as they might in fact sound identical. I will let you know soon. The bass was very deep and impactful but with a great high end. With some EDM and Rock, it could be pretty smile inducing intense . The 53' Foton was my favorite of the few driver tubes that I ran with it so far. A very nice pairing as I suspected. Both tubes still need to burn in, these may stay in the amp for awhile.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> This 63' Bendix 6080WB arrived yesterday and I was able to listen to it for several hours last night. It is indeed NOS in the original box. I am so happy to have finally found one. Hickok 800A tests it balanced and I believe strong, even though I can't figure out a bogey rating for it since it goes off the charts using the roll chart _English _value. I used the 15k line on the meter and both triodes test at 10,750/10,750.
> 
> These definitely need some warm up time before the plates start to glow and it's able to perform at it's peak, but boy does it sound great. They say these need burn in time of up to 100 hours. From memory, this does seem to outshine my Chatham solid graphite plates. But I need to revisit it and use the same driver tube for accurate comparisons, as they might in fact sound identical. I will let you know soon. The bass was very deep and impactful but with a great high end. With some EDM and Rock, it could be pretty smile inducing intense . The 53' Foton was my favorite of the few driver tubes that I ran with it so far. A very nice pairing as I suspected. Both tubes still need to burn in, these may stay in the amp for awhile.


Sweet!  Now it's possible I may buy _*one*_ more tube.  LOL!  

My solid plate versions are the same with the warm-up thing. Don't recall either of them needing 100 hours to fully burn-in (that should cause @Paladin79 to fall out of his chair). but they both need at least 15-20 minutes of warm-up after a cold start before they sound best.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 1, 2021)

Leave me alone I am trying something new lol. this is purple heart with a birdseye maple racing stripe.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> There's an old tale about lemmings that comes to mind...


Those lemmings were solid-state, though...


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone I am trying something new lol. this is purple heart with a birdseye maple racing stripe.


I have to say it, am not sure anymore what’s you’re more into, woodwork or amp business 😛


----------



## Paladin79 (May 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I have to say it, am not sure anymore what’s you’re more into, woodwork or amp business 😛


Both are just hobbies but assembling the same amps gets boring, the woodworking makes it fun for me or I would have stopped long ago. Well mostly the same amps, Cowen's was very different but then so is he.  

One day I will build a cabinet for a DV but I still have several projects ahead of that.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Both are just hobbies but assembling the same amps gets boring, the woodworking makes it fun for me or I would have stopped long ago. Well mostly the same amps, Cowen's was very different but then so is he.
> 
> One day I will build a cabinet for a DV but I still have several projects ahead of that.


Thought R&D on the Incubus is ongoing 😊
Best way for Bill to feel he have an obsolete version lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well mostly the same amps, Cowen's was very different but then so is he.


I consider that a compliment.  Thanks!!


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Best way for Bill to feel he have a *uniquely special* version lol


Fixed this.  Man, this constant editing thing is getting laborious (which I'm highly allergic to).


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@Paladin79 would it be OK to ask you some serious yet noob questions, like how do OTL circuits change when switching from 6SN7 to 6SL7? Is it a matter of putting in  different resistors and capacitors in the circuit or is it more complex? I believe some amps like Glenn's even have switches for every taste e.g. 6SN7/6SL7, 12v/6v heater etc.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @Paladin79 would it be OK to ask you some serious yet noob questions, like how do OTL circuits change when switching from 6SN7 to 6SL7? Is it a matter of putting in  different resistors and capacitors in the circuit or is it more complex? I believe some amps like Glenn's even have switches for every taste e.g. 6SN7/6SL7, 12v/6v heater etc.


I would have to look up the specs on the 6SL7 but you can design for different tubes. Personally I would rather build an amp that excels with one type of tube rather than building for many.😺😺


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Do any of you own this guy? (2C51)



Here's the one I have.  No clue what the codes mean, but the crossed swords on the back are way cool if nothing else.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would have to look up the specs on the 6SL7 but you can design for different tubes. Personally I would rather build an amp that excels with one type of tube rather than building for many.😺😺


I like @tubebuyer2020 's question.  I have a whole tub of 6SL7's here getting no love at all.  They are becoming NOerS (New Old*er* Stock ).  3.5x the amplification factor of a 6SN7 (70 versus 20) and half the heater current draw (300 milliamps), but the rest of the data is Greek to me. Or maybe Russian.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Those lemmings were solid-state, though...


Even worse.  If the fall off the cliff doesn't kill them, the first EMP blast will.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Do any of you own this guy? (2C51)





bcowen said:


> Here's the one I have.  No clue what the codes mean, but the crossed swords on the back are way cool if nothing else.



I remember on one of the other threads ((lyr/vali) they were a thing for a while. Supposedly waaay better than just about anything else with the Tesla brand on them.
And it's a scientific fact that anything with crossed swords on it increases the cool factor - surprisingly it even works on Chevettes


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Well mostly the same amps, Cowen's was very different but then so is he.


Both are sideways.....


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I remember on one of the other threads ((lyr/vali) they were a thing for a while. Supposedly waaay better than just about anything else with the Tesla brand on them.
> And it's a scientific fact that anything with crossed swords on it increases the cool factor - surprisingly it even works on Chevettes


Yeah, IIRC it was the Lyr (non-3) tube rolling thread.  They were the new greatest thing right after the triple-mica Fotons were the greatest thing and subsequently became unobtanium.  Then the Euro 12AT7 equivalents became the newest new greatest thing, and I gave up and quit buying tubes.  Kind of.


----------



## bcowen

Best price I've seen on 1950's Fotons in a while.  These look to be post-1956 meaning they don't have the ribbed plates which are a bit better, but any of the '50's are pretty darn good...especially for this kind of money.  I know nothing about this particular seller (who doesn't have much of a feedback record), so buy at your own risk, but at (US) $6.78/pair, the price is pretty attractive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133745242553?hash=item1f23d671b9:g:pcIAAOSwXxVgil57


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well, at the time $39.95 **was all I could afford.


** plus shipping & handling...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Anything is possible, of course, but remember that I'm not buying any more tubes.


“but I will accept non-GE tubes as gifts...”


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Fixed this.  Man, this constant editing thing is getting laborious (which I'm highly allergic to).


Unique enough as it looks different than all other models and definitely sounds different with some Voodoo tubes am sure your are using without bragging about them 😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Fixed this.  Man, this constant editing thing is getting laborious (which I'm highly allergic to).


And someone should fill the helmet of a forum “technical” moderator 😊
@jonathan c  have the skills as well 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> “but I will accept non-GE tubes as gifts...”


Very humble of you 😊
The GE 5998A included ? Lol


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Very humble of you 😊
> The GE 5998A included ? Lol


No doubt Bill would take a GE 5998A for free but I wonder if he could listen without bias, that is not always an easy thing to do.  

Once again I am listening to the 61 Melz, it is hard to set this tube aside, vocals and soundstage are incredible.

These are an excellent year but more than I generally pay for Melz and I am not really needing a matched pair.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224333560544?hash=item343b527ae0:g:rx0AAOSwWNRgFTE9


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> No doubt Bill would take a GE 5998A for free but I wonder if he could listen without bias, that is not always an easy thing to do.
> 
> Once again I am listening to the 61 Melz, it is hard to set this tube aside, vocals and soundstage are incredible.
> 
> ...


Well given your impressions, seems worth the price 😊


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well given your impressions, seems worth the price 😊


Which?  The GE or the Melz?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No doubt Bill would take a GE 5998A for free but I wonder if he could listen without bias, that is not always an easy thing to do.
> 
> Once again I am listening to the 61 Melz, it is hard to set this tube aside, vocals and soundstage are incredible.
> 
> ...


I would _never_ listen to any tube without bias.  With no bias voltage applied, the tube would probably self-destruct.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Which?  The GE or the Melz?


The Melz definitely


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The Melz definitely


It took me a while to work through a lot of the years and types so you would be getting off easy just getting a pair of those lol. I probably averaged around $80 each in my learning considering some of the less costly variations. Mind you my amp building offsets a lot of those costs.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I would _never_ listen to any tube without bias.  With no bias voltage applied, the tube would probably self-destruct.


Can't be un-biased unless we went into a blind test. It's the nature of the beast. The Kamikaze buddies who reviewed the GE 5998A had to do it blindly or else the GE would not had stood a chance am sure.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It took me a while to work through a lot of the years and types so you would be getting off easy just getting a pair of those lol. I probably averaged around $80 each in my learning considering some of the less costly variations. Mind you my amp building offsets a lot of those costs.


Yeah contrary to what some may say 😜 your experience does pay in cutting our R&D cost


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Can't be un-biased unless we went into a blind test. It's the nature of the beast. The Kamikaze buddies who reviewed the GE 5998A had to do it blindly or else the GE would not had stood a chance am sure.


Huh? Most knew precisely what they were listening to, but few of them based an opinion on other GE tubes they may have heard in the past. IMHO


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Huh? Most knew precisely what they were listening to, but few of them based an opinion on other GE tubes they may have heard in the past.


Still am sure that given the GE tarnished reputation, it would have been much better not knowing what tube they are testing 😃


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah contrary to what some may say 😜 your experience does pay in cutting our R&D cost


This particular type of tube was built for four decades so it does take a while to get a sense of the history. @bcowen did they same with Fotons except there is a huge price difference.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> No doubt Bill would take a GE 5998A for free but I wonder if he could listen without bias, that is not always an easy thing to do.
> 
> Once again I am listening to the 61 Melz, it is hard to set this tube aside, vocals and soundstage are incredible.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post - four ordered.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Still am sure that given the GE tarnished reputation, it would have been much better not knowing what tube they are testing 😃


I do not listen much to the opinions of a few people, or one person. I have no reason to. I want the opinions of many, in the case of the GE 5998A some had bad experiences, most were quite positive. I have a background in science, I wanted to find out why some of the GE's had issues and it turns out they are the easiest tubes to resolder I have ever found. You still find people who say the GE 6SN7 is not bad but think of all the people who never picked one up because of what others said?  If I did not take time to figure things out for myself we would still be hearing that Foton's need to burn in for 100 hours, I proved that to be bunk. 

I should add that one of the GE 5998A's could not be salvaged. It has something wrong internally and there is a pretty good spark after warm up. The seller basically bought a big box of NOS and did not test or listen to any. He did give a refund and was honest about how the tubes were sold.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Thank you for this post - four ordered.


I looked at all the Melz out there right now and except for a couple 63's at an extremely high price, the 59's are among the best I saw. If you run into issues due to soldering, and cannot fix them yourself, I will help and I never charge for helping others with something I am so used to.

I have a 59 in one of my amps and it is as good as I remembered.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I looked at all the Melz out there right now and except for a couple 63's at an extremely high price, the 59's are among the best I saw. If you run into issues due to soldering, and cannot fix them yourself, I will help and I never charge for helping others with something I am so used to.
> 
> I have a 59 in one of my amps and it is as good as I remembered.


Thank you, so generous!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If you run into issues due to soldering, and cannot fix them yourself, I will help and I never charge for helping others with something I am so used to.


You *do* have a truck dock, right?  The 4 pallets of Foton 6N8S's should be arriving about any day now.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You *do* have a truck dock, right?  The 4 pallets of Foton 6N8S's should be arriving about any day now.


I know you can solder!!!😽😽😽


----------



## Ripper2860

But why should he when such a generous offer was made.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> But why should he when such a generous offer was made.


I was hoping he had dozed off and was face down in his Captain Crunch cereal when I said that.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 2, 2021)

I believe he posted previously that 'Fruity Pebbles' is his cereal of choice.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> But why should he when such a generous offer was made.


In all these years, I think this is your first sensible post.


----------



## Paladin79

Oh I am sending a loaner Incubus to @AudioGal, @Zachik, then @LoryWiv. If I have forgotten anyone in the US who made a previous request please let me know. I talk to a lot of folks and time passes and I forget ID's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was hoping he had dozed off and was face down in his Captain Crunch cereal when I said that.


ROFL!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe he posted previously that 'Fruity Pebbles' was his cereal of choice.


Actually, I like most any cereal *not* made by *GE*neral Mills.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh I am sending a loaner Incubus to @AudioGal, @Zachik, then @LoryWiv. If I have forgotten anyone in the US who made a previous request please let me know. I talk to a lot of folks and time passes and I forget ID's.


Just be sure my name is still at the top of the list for Incubus v3.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I looked at all the Melz out there right now and except for a couple 63's at an extremely high price, the 59's are among the best I saw. If you run into issues due to soldering, and cannot fix them yourself, I will help and I never charge for helping others with something I am so used to.
> 
> I have a 59 in one of my amps and it is as good as I remembered.


Your generosity is exceeded only by your woodworking skills.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Your generosity is exceeded only by your woodworking skills.


Thanks Sam, I was going to try to make the next loaner butt ugly but I am not so sure how that will work out. 
I believe the layout on maple will work better than I first thought.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Your generosity is exceeded only by your woodworking skills.



....and Finnegan.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ....and Finnegan.


----------



## Ripper2860

Have you tried putting the cat out in the hall and closing the door to the bedroom when going to bed?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just be sure my name is still at the top of the list for Incubus v3.


If you like waiting, and I know that you _love_ solid-state, get on the list for a Flux Lab Acoustics Volot....(join Estragon, Lucky, Pozzo, and Vladimir...waiting for Volot)


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Have you tried putting the cat out in the hall and closing the door to the bedroom when going to bed?


We have four cats and a dog, we need to keep the wildlife trails open.😺😺😺

You are forever responsible for that which you tame.


----------



## Ripper2860

And they should be forever grateful and let one sleep!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> We have four cats and a dog, we need to keep the wildlife trails open.😺😺😺
> 
> You are forever responsible for that which you tame.


...and accountable to that which tames you...


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll be keeping that little gem from the wife.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just be sure my name is still at the top of the list for Incubus v3.


Ok but that one will not be free, I have pet food to buy you know, and scotch.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Leave me alone I am trying something new lol. this is purple heart with a birdseye maple racing stripe.


That is truly handsome wood, no double entendre intended. Your eye for aesthetics as well as sound expertise is stellar, Tom!


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Oh I am sending a loaner Incubus to @AudioGal, @Zachik, then @LoryWiv. If I have forgotten anyone in the US who made a previous request please let me know. I talk to a lot of folks and time passes and I forget ID's.


Let me know when you can make it around my way again, I need to get a chance to listen as I only held the amp and did not get a chance to listen as it just made an overnight stop. I can wait though as I am super busy right now. Maybe your next iteration?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Have you tried putting the cat out in the hall and closing the door to the bedroom when going to bed?


You're just plain mean.  I mean that in the nicest way possible, of course.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>



ROFL!  I'm glad neither of mine can play the guitar.  I just get the wet nose in the face.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Let me know when you can make it around my way again, I need to get a chance to listen as I only held the amp and did not get a chance to listen as it just made an overnight stop. I can wait though as I am super busy right now. Maybe your next iteration?


So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok but that one will not be free, I have pet food to buy you know, and scotch.


Well, I already ordered the scotch and cat food for you.  But since I'm paying this time, I want a pentagon-shaped cabinet (of Tiger Maple naturally) with dovetailed corners, a 1/2" thick 6-nines pure copper top plate, NOS Riken carbon film resistors (for the little ones) and Duelands (for the big ones), and the housing large enough to accommodate all Mundorf silver/gold oil film caps (no electrolytics).  And your signature in_ real _ink this time.  Oh, and free shipping.  Yeah, that for sure.  And keep the price under $99.00, 'cause that's all I have.  I'll send you the gold-plated Furutech IEC socket, so don't worry about that.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


Sweet!  Nice router work.  Now all you need is the jig for dovetails.    

(or did you cheat and buy pre-cut molding? )


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, I already ordered the scotch and cat food for you.  But since I'm paying this time, I want a pentagon-shaped cabinet (of Tiger Maple naturally) with dovetailed corners, a 1/2" thick 6-nines pure copper top plate, NOS Riken carbon film resistors (for the little ones) and Duelands (for the big ones), and the housing large enough to accommodate all Mundorf silver/gold oil film caps (no electrolytics).  And your signature in_ real _ink this time.  Oh, and free shipping.  Yeah, that for sure.  And keep the price under $99.00, 'cause that's all I have.  I'll send you the gold-plated Furutech IEC socket, so don't worry about that.


Finnegan and I will be talking to you about your tastes soon. 

Easy enough, you want a cardboard box and I get to pick all the parts. Life is much to short to listen to your wants lol. I will write Version 3 on the bottom in Sharpie for you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


These work great for octal sockets (and even novals).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Nice router work.  Now all you need is the jig for dovetails.
> 
> (or did you cheat and buy pre-cut molding? )


I have a dovetail jig and no they do not sell purple heart in precut moldings you goof. That was done with multiple passes on my router table. It is far from perfect but sanding will help.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan and I will be talking to you about your tastes soon.
> 
> Easy enough, you want a cardboard box and I get to pick all the parts. Life is much to short to listen to your wants lol. I will write Version 3 on the bottom in Sharpie for you.


Fine.  Like it's somehow *my* fault that I have refined tastes.  Sheeez.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> These work great for octal sockets (and even novals).
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I know, sometime I will have to show you my tool collection so you do not think I am working with a soldering iron and a pair of side cutters. lol.. I have tools to help me find tools.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> These work great for octal sockets (and even novals).
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1



You might want to try using those tools for their intended purpose when not straightening tube sockets.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know, sometime I will have to show you my tool collection so you do not think I am working with a soldering iron and a pair of side cutters. lol.. I have tools to help me find tools.



I only have a hammer and a screwdriver.  Oh, and a propane torch for soldering of course.  But on the plus side, I'm almost finished with your B&K tester.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You might want to try using those tools for their intended purpose when not straightening tube sockets.



Enough of your family photos.  This is an audio forum.  Geeez.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I only have a hammer and a screwdriver.  Oh, and a propane torch for soldering of course.  But on the plus side, I'm almost finished with your B&K tester.



If you had my tester yet you would be too busy admiring the packing job to work on it, so there.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 2, 2021)

> Enough of your family photos. This is an audio forum. Geeez.



Weak.  I expected more from you.  That's one demerit for lack of creativity.

Being the nice guy that I am, might I suggest the below (available in audiobook)?   Although I've never needed anything like this, I think you most certainly could use some help in the area of witty repartee.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Let me know when you can make it around my way again, I need to get a chance to listen as I only held the amp and did not get a chance to listen as it just made an overnight stop. I can wait though as I am super busy right now. Maybe your next iteration?


My next iteration may well be in spalted maple, I have the cabinet cut out. Since you are in South Carolina I may even let Cowen hear one of the newer models since he is not far from you. I suppose being in North Carolina makes him more of a Yankee.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Weak.  I expected more from you.  That's one demerit for lack of creativity.
> 
> Being the nice guy that I am, might I suggest the below (available in print and audiobook)?   Although I've never needed anything like this, I think you most certainly could use some help in the area of witty repartee.


+ the classic: “How to win friends & influence people”...?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> You might want to try using those tools for their intended purpose when not straightening tube sockets.


*Nov*anderth*al *?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I only have a hammer and a screwdriver.  Oh, and a propane torch for soldering of course.  But on the plus side, I'm almost finished with your B&K tester.


I thought that this was (is?) the engine block for your Mazda...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I thought that this was (is?) the engine block for your Mazda...


That's way bigger than the Mazda's engine.


----------



## Mr Trev (May 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That's way bigger than the Mazda's engine.


Fun fact:
AMC Pacer's were originally designed to use a rotary engine, like the Mazda RX7 - but GM wussed out and the cars got stuck with an I6.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Fun fact:
> AMC Pacer's were originally designed to use a rotary engine, like the Mazda RX7 - but GM wussed out.


Oh the horror!  Somehow the only image that comes to mind is Garth in the passenger seat.   

Curiously, a rotary engine _should_ be more efficient than a piston engine.  It's already generating power in a rotational fashion, where a piston engine has to convert linear motion to rotational.  Unfortunately Mazda has been the only automotive company to put any significant R&D into it.  Imagine what that engine _could_ have developed into if all the engineering and development that has gone into piston engines over the years had gone to the rotary instead.  Mazda has done some very intelligent things over the years improving the design, but they've also shot themselves in the foot so many times they can't even walk upright any more.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Oh the horror!  Somehow the only image that comes to mind is Garth in the passenger seat.
> 
> Curiously, a rotary engine _should_ be more efficient than a piston engine.  It's already generating power in a rotational fashion, where a piston engine has to convert linear motion to rotational.  Unfortunately Mazda has been the only automotive company to put any significant R&D into it.  Imagine what that engine _could_ have developed into if all the engineering and development that has gone into piston engines over the years had gone to the rotary instead.  Mazda has done some very intelligent things over the years improving the design, but they've also shot themselves in the foot so many times they can't even walk upright any more.


Well, there you go…
I imagine Pacers have to go pretty cheap these days (oddly, you never see 'em here in Canada. maybe the odd Gremlin, but really nothing AMC). When your RX8 falls apart, you can transplant the engine.
Now that's modding


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Well, there you go…
> I imagine Pacers have to go pretty cheap these days (oddly, you never see 'em here in Canada. maybe the odd Gremlin, but really nothing AMC). When your RX8 falls apart, you can transplant the engine.
> Now that's modding


LOL!  Not seeing any Pacers in Canada is a huge plus....for Canada.  The Pacer was one of the butt-ugliest cars ever made IMO (well, except for whatever @Ripper2860 is driving right now).  

When my RX-8 falls apart, I'll get an RX-9.  Just hope the RX-8 holds together long enough for a change in Mazda management and they start thinking about making an RX-9 (they've indicated they're done with the rotary altogether at this point).  A rotary is kind of addictive....going back to a piston engine would be like replacing all my tube gear with solid state.  Yeah, the stuff nightmares are made of.  Bad ones.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Not seeing any Pacers in Canada is a huge plus....for Canada.  The Pacer was one of the butt-ugliest cars ever made IMO (well, except for whatever @Ripper2860 is driving right now).
> 
> When my RX-8 falls apart, I'll get an RX-9.  Just hope the RX-8 holds together long enough for a change in Mazda management and they start thinking about making an RX-9 (they've indicated they're done with the rotary altogether at this point).  A rotary is kind of addictive....going back to a piston engine would be like replacing all my tube gear with solid state.  Yeah, the stuff nightmares are made of.  Bad ones.


Never had the pleasure of driving one myself, but I remember from watching GT racing… they sound AWESOME!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Curiously, a rotary engine _should_ be more efficient than a piston engine.  It's already generating power in a rotational fashion, where a piston engine has to convert linear motion to rotational.
> Mazda has done some very intelligent things over the years improving the design, but they've also shot themselves in the foot so many times they can _*only walk in circles...*_


----------



## Ripper2860

Mr Trev said:


> Fun fact:
> AMC Pacer's were originally designed to use a rotary engine, like the Mazda RX7 - but GM wussed out and the cars got stuck with an I6.





bcowen said:


> The Pacer was one of the butt-ugliest cars ever made IMO


Have you forgotten about the AMC Matador?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Have you forgotten about the AMC Matador?


The Matador was just clunky looking, and certainly wasn't helped by Mr. Fantasy Island promoting it (although he *did* redeem himself in the Wrath of Khan later on).  The Pacer looked like it was designed by Minion engineers, thus their expression when they saw the first one roll off the assembly line.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Not seeing any Pacers in Canada is a huge plus....for Canada.  The Pacer was one of the butt-ugliest cars ever made IMO (well, except for whatever @Ripper2860 is driving right now).😆


For US motor cars, I say that the arse-ugliest is the Pontiac Aztec. It looks as though it was designed and built by a committee of committees....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


Though not finished.....gorgeous!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well, I already ordered the scotch and cat food for you.  But since I'm paying this time, I want a pentagon-shaped cabinet (of Tiger Maple naturally) with dovetailed corners, a 1/2" thick 6-nines pure copper top plate, NOS Riken carbon film resistors (for the little ones) and Duelands (for the big ones), and the housing large enough to accommodate all Mundorf silver/gold oil film caps (no electrolytics).  And your signature in_ real _ink this time.  Oh, and free shipping.  Yeah, that for sure.  And keep the price under $99.00, 'cause that's all I have.


You surprise me: with your adoration of Marilyn Manson, l’d have thought that you would request a pentagram-shaped cabinet...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You surprise me: with your adoration of Marilyn Manson, l’d have thought that you would request a pentagram-shaped cabinet...


For $99, I didn't want to go too far overboard on the specs.  I try to be pragmatic.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I know, sometime I will have to show you my tool collection so you do not think I am working with a soldering iron and a pair of side cutters. lol.. I have tools to help me find tools.


Please tell us about the tools to help find the tools---I seem to misplace at least one a day!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Please tell us about the tools to help find the tools---I seem to misplace at least one a day!


I was kidding for the most part lol, I do keep small extendable mirrors and magnets in case I drop a screw or small screw drivers that might roll under my bench. The mirrors also help in looking at the back side of solder work in tight places. Generally I keep multiples of electronics tools close by so I never have to search for specific hand tools. It also helps me to have racks where specific tools go that are well marked so I can look for any empty spaces.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I was kidding for the most part lol, I do keep small extendable mirrors and magnets in case I drop a screw or small screw drivers that might roll under my bench. The mirrors also help in looking at the back side of solder work in tight places. Generally I keep multiples of electronics tools close by so I never have to search for specific hand tools.


“Besides, Finnegan knows where everything is...I’ll ask him: ‘have you seen...?’”


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Please tell us about the tools to help find the tools---I seem to misplace at least one a day!


LOL!  I have a dedicated tool _mis_-placer.  He's 17 years old.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> “Besides, Finnegan knows where everything is...I’ll ask him: ‘have you seen...?’”


I just happened to think if I get a sample ready for the East coast while one is out west, I could let you hear one @jonathan c . @bcowen is not going to take another so one should be free to go through a few hands if you want  to hear an Incubus.

Right now my shop is pretty dusty due to all the woodworking, at least all the clay dust is concentrated in another area now. Every once in a while I get out the air compressor and blow all the dust out of the shop after securing small items.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I just happened to think if I get a sample ready for the East coast while one is out west, I could let you hear one @jonathan c . @bcowen is not going to take another so one should be free to go through a few hands if you want  to hear an Incubus.
> 
> Right now my shop is pretty dusty due to all the woodworking, at least all the clay dust is concentrated in another area now. Every once in a while I get out the air compressor and blow all the dust out of the shop after securing small items.


That would be wonderful, thank you.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> For US motor cars, I say that the arse-ugliest is the Pontiac Aztec. It looks as though it was designed and built by a committee of committees....


Can't disagree with that.  I got one as a rental one time (not by choice).  It drove worse than it looked, impossible as that seems.  I'm pretty sure the entire R&D for those was done by high school summer interns.

But an even worse mistake was booking a car rental for a one-day business trip. Being the conscientious corporate guy that I was, I told them to just give me the cheapest thing they had.   They did.  It was a Kia. No radio, no cruise, crank handle windows, no power door locks, no air conditioning (and this was August in NC), and you literally had to floor it to maintain speed on even a mild uphill grade.  I think a 1972 Chevy Vega had more going for it than this thing did.  My riding lawnmower would not only blow it away in acceleration, but it has a cupholder to boot (which the Kia didn't).  Not trying to slag Kia's in general, just slagging this particular one.  On the plus side, you never had to change the oil...after 5k miles, just throw it away.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen is not going to take another so one should be free to go through a few hands if you want  to hear an Incubus.



What?!?!?!?  So then in layman's terms, @jonathan c has overtaken me in sucking up?  Damnit.  This is what I get for _trying_ to be nice.  Trying. (doing is a different thing).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What?!?!?!?  So then in layman's terms, @jonathan c has overtaken me in sucking up?  Damnit.  This is what I get for _trying_ to be nice.  Trying. (doing is a different thing).


Ok, ok. I will let you clean the tube sockets before the amp goes on to Jonathan, just in the spirit of giving. You should be receiving my tube tester soon and all your efforts should be turned to that, non stop, round the clock.    It is ok with me if you listen to the new Incubus a little, but NO Marilyn Manson!!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok, ok. I will let you clean the tube sockets before the amp goes on to Jonathan, just in the spirit of giving. You should be receiving my tube tester soon and all your efforts should be turned to that, non stop, round the clock.    It is ok with me if you listen to the new Incubus a little, but NO Marilyn Manson!!!!


Marilyn who?

(+1 for Cowen over @jonathan c )


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Can't disagree with that.  I got one as a rental one time (not by choice).  It drove worse than it looked, impossible as that seems.  I'm pretty sure the entire R&D for those was done by high school summer interns.
> 
> But an even worse mistake was booking a car rental for a one-day business trip. Being the conscientious corporate guy that I was, I told them to just give me the cheapest thing they had.   They did.  It was a Kia. No radio, no cruise, crank handle windows, no power door locks, no air conditioning (and this was August in NC), and you literally had to floor it to maintain speed on even a mild uphill grade.  I think a 1972 Chevy Vega had more going for it than this thing did.  My riding lawnmower would not only blow it away in acceleration***, but it has a cupkegholder to boot (which the Kia didn't).  Not trying to slag Kia's in general, just slagging this particular one.  On the plus side, you never had to change the oil...after 5k miles, just throw it away.


*** uphill, in tall grass...


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I was kidding for the most part lol, I do keep small extendable mirrors and magnets in case I drop a screw or small screw drivers that might roll under my bench. The mirrors also help in looking at the back side of solder work in tight places. Generally I keep multiples of electronics tools close by so I never have to search for specific hand tools. It also helps me to have racks where specific tools go that are well marked so I can look for any empty spaces.


Ahhh, good ol magnet on a stick. Bailed my ass out many times.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Ahhh, good ol magnet on a stick. Bailed my ass out many times.



Mine too.  A long bend-y magnet stick is great for those of us that drop lots of schiit.  And a light on the end for those of us that are blind as schiit.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Mine too.  A long bend-y magnet stick is great for those of us that drop lots of schiit.  And a light on the end for those of us that are blind as schiit.


Did you swipe that when your proctologist was not looking?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Did you swipe that when your proctologist was not looking?


ROFL!  I actually picked that up at a yard sale for $1.  Had to spend $5 for new (button cell) batteries though.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mine too.  A long bend-y magnet stick is great for those of us that drop lots of schiit.  And a light on the end for those of us that are blind as schiit.


Souvenir from a Fotonoscopy...?


----------



## therremans

I found an octal test adapter on eBay. It’s much quicker than testing with the bottom panel open.  On my amp, 116v out of the wall is ideal for 6.3v heaters. Next, to get the resistors to drop the heater voltage to 6.3v without use of the Variac, like a few of you already have.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I found an octal test adapter on eBay. It’s much quicker than testing with the bottom panel open.  On my amp, 116v out of the wall is ideal for 6.3v heaters. Next, to get the resistors to drop the heater voltage to 6.3v without use of the Variac, like a few of you already have.


I was able to do away with the Fitz Mod afterwards. But, I haven't been rolling tubes as much either so not sure if it really helps with the inherited hum issues of the Darkone.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


I like the lines. Nice work.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 4, 2021)

I had to clean up a few areas that my router did not handle well so it is coming along. Cabinet is glued, now I add inside corner supports and splines than I work on filing and sanding. Many things like the IEC socket can be laborious but it is just part of it.

The purpleheart wood keeps looking more brown in the photos but it will come through with final finish. This sample goes to Audiogal first but I used to get requests for a purple amp from a few guys so maybe someone will want it lol.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I found an octal test adapter on eBay. It’s much quicker than testing with the bottom panel open.  On my amp, 116v out of the wall is ideal for 6.3v heaters. Next, to get the resistors to drop the heater voltage to 6.3v without use of the Variac, like a few of you already have.


Sweet!!


Paladin79 said:


> I had to clean up a few areas that my router did not handle well so it is coming along. Cabinet is glued, now I add inside corner supports and splines than I work on filing and sanding. Many things like the IEC socket can be laborious but it is just part of it.


Nice!  And that molding on top looks great!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!
> 
> Nice!  And that molding on top looks great!


I like to experiment with the samples, I am not done yet trying other ideas. I usually dump the samples at a reduced price and I did give a few away but I stopped that practice.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I had to clean up a few areas that my router did not handle well so it is coming along. Cabinet is glued, now I add inside corner supports and splines than I work on filing and sanding. Many things like the IEC socket can be laborious but it is just part of it.
> 
> The purpleheart wood keeps looking more brown in the photos but it will come through with final finish. This sample goes to Audiogal first but I used to get requests for a purple amp from a few guys so maybe someone will want it lol.


That one will go quick.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 4, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> That one will go quick.


It may, some of the people I am sending it to have no interest in another amp, one might but in a darker color but I like for people to hear the amp before making decisions. Either that or I give them two weeks to listen and then decide. With opposing splines, still a lot of sanding to go.


----------



## DuncanDirkDick

Paladin79 said:


> I was kidding for the most part lol, I do keep small extendable mirrors and magnets in case I drop a screw or small screw drivers that might roll under my bench. The mirrors also help in looking at the back side of solder work in tight places. Generally I keep multiples of electronics tools close by so I never have to search for specific hand tools. It also helps me to have racks where specific tools go that are well marked so I can look for any empty spaces.


That looks way nicer. I know where my stuff is, but once those Wera's are gone they're gone...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That one will go quick.


He needs to send it to me first for a thorough quality evaluation and stamp of approval.  The hole for the IEC socket may be off by 0.0023 inches, but I can't tell for sure from the photo.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> He needs to send it to me first for a thorough quality evaluation and stamp of approval.  The hole for the IEC socket may be off by 0.0023 inches, but I can't tell for sure from the photo.


No way!!!! Molding insulter.😾😾😾😾


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> He needs to send it to me first for a thorough quality evaluation and stamp of approval.


This?:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> This?:



I want need MUST have one of those.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No way!!!! Molding insulter.😾😾😾😾


OK, ok...maybe it's only 0.0022 inches.  See?  That's why I need it sent to me to, you know, verify.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> OK, ok...maybe it's only 0.0022 inches.  See?  That's why I need it sent to me to, you know, verify.


Drill in once, measure twice...


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> This?:


Samuel Jackson seal of approval right there.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Drill in once, measure twice...


Most of the work around the IEC socket is done with a file once I get the rough shape in place. Same way with the 1/4 inch jack, it is not perfectly round and takes a while to fit into place.   There is about a weeks worth of work by the time you start with a couple boards and get everything fitted into place, then the final listening and measurements happen plus the time it takes to assemble all the parts for the amp itself.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> So noted, this time I may include a sharp pick so the sockets can be corrected if a lot of tubes are tried lol.  There is a lot of sanding to be done but the jacks and pot fits.


Nice routing job, it gives personality to the amp, anddd makes old versions obsolete lol 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well, I already ordered the scotch and cat food for you.  But since I'm paying this time, I want a pentagon-shaped cabinet (of Tiger Maple naturally) with dovetailed corners, a 1/2" thick 6-nines pure copper top plate, NOS Riken carbon film resistors (for the little ones) and Duelands (for the big ones), and the housing large enough to accommodate all Mundorf silver/gold oil film caps (no electrolytics).  And your signature in_ real _ink this time.  Oh, and free shipping.  Yeah, that for sure.  And keep the price under $99.00, 'cause that's all I have.  I'll send you the gold-plated Furutech IEC socket, so don't worry about that.


Premium shelf indeed 😜😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I only have a hammer and a screwdriver.  Oh, and a propane torch for soldering of course.  But on the plus side, I'm almost finished with your B&K tester.


What 😨😨


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> If you had my tester yet you would be too busy admiring the packing job to work on it, so there.


Probably it would take a day or 2 to unwrap it


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I was kidding for the most part lol, I do keep small extendable mirrors and magnets in case I drop a screw or small screw drivers that might roll under my bench. The mirrors also help in looking at the back side of solder work in tight places. Generally I keep multiples of electronics tools close by so I never have to search for specific hand tools. It also helps me to have racks where specific tools go that are well marked so I can look for any empty spaces.


as wondering why the Wiha screwdrivers prices went up 🙂🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably it would take a day or 2 to unwrap it


Oh heck no, @bcowen ripped it open like a five year old on Christmas morning. The man seemed to be working on the tester into the night. I may have to let him hear a newer Incubus one day as a thank you.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> “Besides, Finnegan knows where everything is...I’ll ask him: ‘have you seen...?’”


You can ask Finnegan all you want, it's OK. Only if Finnegan answered back than you need professional care lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> as wondering why the Wiha screwdrivers prices went up 🙂🙂


It is a set anyone can buy as far as I know. They also make a rack with holes in it but I like how this one is marked with all the sizes.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Premium shelf indeed 😜😜😜


At least the Grant’s is $12.99 per 750ml not per 1.5L ....


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I just happened to think if I get a sample ready for the East coast while one is out west, I could let you hear one @jonathan c . @bcowen is not going to take another so one should be free to go through a few hands if you want  to hear an Incubus.
> 
> Right now my shop is pretty dusty due to all the woodworking, at least all the clay dust is concentrated in another area now. Every once in a while I get out the air compressor and blow all the dust out of the shop after securing small items.


I normally prefer a vacuum cleaner in my workshop and check the bag afterwards, always some nice findings 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ok, ok. I will let you clean the tube sockets before the amp goes on to Jonathan, just in the spirit of giving. You should be receiving my tube tester soon and all your efforts should be turned to that, non stop, round the clock.    It is ok with me if you listen to the new Incubus a little, but NO Marilyn Manson!!!!


I would wait for the tester job first 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> At least the Grant’s is $12.99 per 750ml not per 1.5L ....


Am sure he tried to find the 1 Gallon size


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Souvenir from a Fotonoscopy...?


Colonoscopy ??????😨😨😨


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I would wait for the tester job first 🙂


I am forced to wait anyway, the sample I am making goes to the west coast. My east coast version will most likely be in spalted maple, it can be a little dangerous to work with so I need to build that this time of the year.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> OK, ok...maybe it's only 0.0022 inches.  See?  That's why I need it sent to me to, you know, verify.


Yeah, @bcowen spent a a long time working for Swiss watch manufacturers 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

Happy Cinco De Mayo!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Happy Cinco De Mayo!


It’s time for Los Lobos, La Bamba, Gato Barbieri (jazz)....easy for the Incubus to handle (in its sleep)...


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah, @bcowen spent a a long time working for Swiss watch manufacturers 🙂


....spent so much time on tolerances that he forgot to put in the hour and minute hands....


----------



## Ripper2860

Margarita is calling my name.  Come 5PM it's hasta la vista, baby!!


----------



## Paladin79




----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Margarita is calling my name.  Come 5PM it's hasta la vista, baby!!


It is 5pm elsewhere...why wait?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ....spent so much time on tolerances that he forgot to put in the hour and minute hands....


Tube operated watches 😜😜😜


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> Tube operated watches 😜😜😜


Nixie tubes, of course!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure he tried to find the 1 Gallon size


The larger of U.S. or imperial...


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Nixie tubes, of course!


I wanted to use those on a steampunk design once, but it never came about lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

The BBQ sauce store carry some with very competitive pricing 😛
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nixie-clock-with-4-in-14-tubes-wood-base


----------



## Paladin79 (May 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> The BBQ sauce store carry some with very competitive pricing 😛
> https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nixie-clock-with-4-in-14-tubes-wood-base


Not as competitive as building your own.   I built this for under $100, of course it is solid scrape (a Cowenism).


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Not as competitive as building your own.   I built this for under $100, of course it is solid scrape (a Cowenism).


A Cowenism approach would lead to this music system being called an InCurrus 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

All internal screw blocks in place, top fits nicely, now I just need to fix what I can on the cabinet, do final finish, make the bottom plate, install the amp, test it and Bob’s your uncle.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> All internal screw blocks in place, top fits nicely, now I just need to fix what I can on the cabinet, do final finish, make the bottom plate, install the amp, test it and Bob’s your uncle.


Tremendous!


----------



## Paladin79

lol lots of sanding dust on it and just a splash of mineral spirits to see the wood, it will get better. If things do not fit well I have to fix them now, there is no going back later


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> All internal screw blocks in place, top fits nicely, now I just need to fix what I can on the cabinet, do final finish, make the bottom plate, install the amp, test it and Bob’s your uncle.


If Bob had no balls he'd be your aunt.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 5, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> If Bob had no balls he'd be your aunt.


Lol.

There are some dings in the molding, maybe I can add a worm hole or two and pretend I went for the distressed look.😺


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> lol lots of sanding dust on it and just a splash of mineral spirits to see the wood, it will get better. If things do not fit well I have to fix them now, there is no going back later


You sure the Melz you sent my way is not of the rare ones ??
As mated with the Svetlana 6080, it’s kicking assess 😀😀
And if the Melz you are mentioning is even better, it’s even worse 😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I wanted to use those on a steampunk design once, but it never came about lol.


I got this as a kit a long long time ago.  Bought a bunch of extra tubes for it as spares, but 20+ years later and it's still running with the originals.  Might be a tad unwieldy as a wristwatch though.  Oh, and you'd need a really, _really_ long cord.


----------



## jonathan c

Back to thread? “Why the hell does my DarkVoice smell?”:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> All internal screw blocks in place, top fits nicely, now I just need to fix what I can on the cabinet, do final finish, make the bottom plate, install the amp, test it and Bob’s your uncle.


Is that big hole on the left to stick your finger in to check if it's on?  Tactile indicator?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol.
> 
> There are some dings in the molding, maybe I can add a worm hole or two and pretend I went for the distressed look.😺


Cosmetic imperfections are "features."  They make each amp unique.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Back to thread? “Why the hell does my DarkVoice smell?”:


Um, maybe because you're smelling it rather than listening to it?  To each his own of course, but that's just weird.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Not as competitive as building your own.   I built this for under $100, of course it is solid scrape (a Cowenism).


Please don't tell me it's a Class D amp.  I just ate.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> If Bob had no balls he'd be your aunt.


ROFL!!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Um, maybe because you're smelling it rather than listening to it?  To each his own of course, but that's just weird.


I don’t own a DV, I think that MM does....


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> You sure the Melz you sent my way is not of the rare ones ??
> As mated with the Svetlana 6080, it’s kicking assess 😀😀
> And if the Melz you are mentioning is even better, it’s even worse 😜


That was not a rare or outstanding Melz. I would say a year of listening and about $2,500 will get you to Melz nirvana. It is a journey and not a simple one.😜😜😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a journey and not a simple one.😜😜😜


Or a cheap one.

Or, we could just wait for you to tell us which are best, and save ourselves a lot of money.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Or a cheap one.
> 
> Or, we could just wait for you to tell us which are best, and save ourselves a lot of money.  Thanks in advance.


That is no fun.😺😺😺


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Please don't tell me it's a Class D amp.  I just ate.


It is one of those letters in the alphabet, earlier than Z as I recall.😎


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is one of those letters in the alphabet, earlier than Z as I recall.😎


Whew.  That's a relief.  D is after Z, right?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I got this as a kit a long long time ago.  Bought a bunch of extra tubes for it as spares, but 20+ years later and it's still running with the originals.  Might be a tad unwieldy as a wristwatch though.  Oh, and you'd need a really, _really_ long cord.


But how does it sound?
Which tubes have the most accurate time response?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Mr Trev (May 5, 2021)

Just cause we got a MM pic in "latest thread images" I figured I'd balance it with a Norah Jones.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> But how does it sound?
> Which tubes have the most accurate time response?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


I'm pretty sure they're Russian tubes.  Probably 1961 Melz.  Perforated plates even.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm pretty sure they're Russian tubes.  Probably 1961 Melz.  Perforated plates even.


Score!

I wonder how many people we _could_ sucker into a Nixie tube rolling thread…


----------



## jonathan c (May 6, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Just cause we got a MM pic in "latest thread images" I figured I'd balance it with a Norah Jones.


🤔:  MM is solid-state, NJ is vacuum tube


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I got this as a kit a long long time ago.  Bought a bunch of extra tubes for it as spares, but 20+ years later and it's still running with the originals.  Might be a tad unwieldy as a wristwatch though.  Oh, and you'd need a really, _really_ long cord.


At a given age no need for a long chord anymore 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Back to thread? “Why the hell does my DarkVoice smell?”:


Depends on what kind of smell, normally DV may smell like BBQ wood but in this case it may not sound like a BHC but may smell like one (crack) 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I don’t own a DV, I think that MM does....


Am not sure the forum moderators would keep you on this thread if you don't show a proof of purchase for a DV, could be a burnt one 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> That was not a rare or outstanding Melz. I would say a year of listening and about $2,500 will get you to Melz nirvana. It is a journey and not a simple one.😜😜😜


In 1 year you would have discovered a new tube and the Melz Nirvana will be obsolete and eating the dust. Probably as we speak you have your Russian minions (aka Thugs) breaking in and threatening some peaceful old people to open their old radios and collect tubes 😜😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Or a cheap one.
> 
> Or, we could just wait for you to tell us which are best, and save ourselves a lot of money.  Thanks in advance.


Waiting for @Paladin79 would yield the same result as with the Melz, he will only disclose the findings after the harvesting rush 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Just cause we got a MM pic in "latest thread images" I figured I'd balance it with a Norah Jones.


So sweet of you 🙂
That should do the trick if you couple it with a photo of Kate Aldrich 😍😍 or Daniella Lugassy 😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm pretty sure they're Russian tubes.  Probably 1961 Melz.  Perforated plates even.


You could have bought the GE one for a fraction of the price but would have gone dead by now 😃😃


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> That is no fun.😺😺😺


My banker, Mort Gage, approves of this tube selection method.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> In 1 year you would have discovered a new tube and the Melz Nirvana will be obsolete and eating the dust. Probably as we speak you have your Russian minions (aka Thugs) breaking in and threatening some peaceful old people to open their old radios and collect tubes 😜😜😜


You have to understand the comparisons. If I say this tube is like a 63 but the mids are slightly better then you would not know what a 63 was, and the 63 can be compared to the 69 but when you get into the 70's and 80's on Melz tubes, all bets are off. Now the late fifties tubes can be remarkable but you have to know the structure of each type to know what I am talking about. Otherwise you might order any old tube.    

Here I can just quote The Big Lebowski....

"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head."

Here are a couple good places to start.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174529052627?hash=item28a2bdffd3:g:-40AAOSwwMJfulQx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274405496479?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3fe3d7969f:gQYAAOSw6cRgfTfe&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkY3FSd4Ad8xn3oRtkVexxrEs5ijXsRZ387cB8XDZm4CJqyw7F9B863Cm6gLj9Zad5BTzpjC1X1Mis1mjRjsU5JoP4NlD8LcVDOYC1AkHP%2BPdhm0uPPtm23aI4HkNIK6GCUDOmnGIZmUhKxw%2FhWGzw9uv9Sk73BxdzjiJ0yBzKUHyNaPENrBXtzbdFuQ8CewBoJ9QAk8Eo4hvDFSV2bu5i%2BDTjzLCK7pc%2FXqe8uevy%2BF%2BbS3OxkHCgcE8PdTIOcaPYUYQ6sWfzBfvfuWHrGqqA0RyKAwaEVolno0SjQlx%2BvCHhY8FmPAAmbTqnQaG6hZ400zOLsscE%2BacZnLpBokfzMiJI9HIr19XprLnlZ6EzIHbsxoWmjX3PZ1nQwiJE18OsgOK8DUo%2Bn8nnzX0oHLQuqSOwH7Utyb5cKCPmLFRz%2B1aChit483c3IFdqTTQzGw65YdnxRTdUeTG4rsvbqjuzNiF6xdsO%2FyAH3QAT6FpJzpDJoRK9i8c1wi%2FcIPjVliWNRsBQwYDfQiP6dijgvRBg0YIKjCGE96OpDgeoyVZ2yEPbtmnkptQHYdXH6V9tc7qsBt%2FhKM591uyXgnTUarHwdXH5sMC4yXGf4n7zQf%2FS4L3LPFHbrbCu3Oyj8y4EBRK1frVRyIjx0oRZigwUTnfC8TuN0mAua3sXYWWYVN3%2Fk6jT8psZ7jdwGojyT8y%2BiL55Efw51TAWoMzjWt2mqqAUKr%2BPhgg1DMQQVt84EfyKzpooHMm%2BmrTYxkU4hJRKi%2FSZwOEAd0UyqqeOzeQ7t9ho3g%3D%3D|cksum:2744054964791a76096e9c9345e094feb902b373e09c|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

Right now they are the only Melz on Ebay I would consider buying.

If I see a Melz variation I do not have, I buy it (within reason). I am more apt to buy tubes from 1953-1963 and within those are some tubes I like very well and a couple are rated so high they could win the tube challenge I am involved with, but there will be 50 people making the final decision so what I think can mean little. I know the eight of us who select tubes for the final 52 have scored a couple Melz extremely well. I sent a 1958 solid plate 1578 to several folks on here just to get their opinion, so if I say a 61 is as good or better, they know what I am talking about and that 58 is a remarkable tube. All things are relative.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> My banker, Mort Gage, approves of this tube selection method.


Dead Gage?...


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> Dead Gage?...


No, probably 30 year.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You have to understand the comparisons. If I say this tube is like a 63 but the mids are slightly better then you would not know what a 63 was, and the 63 can be compared to the 69 but when you get into the 70's and 80's on Melz tubes, all bets are off. Now the late fifties tubes can be remarkable but you have to know the structure of each type to know what I am talking about. Otherwise you might order any old tube.
> 
> Here I can just quote The Big Lebowski....
> 
> ...


My problem is that eBay does not accept international credit card especially with billing address overseas 😭


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> My problem is that eBay does not accept international credit card especially with billing address overseas 😭


Sorry, I would help but I have already given you free tubes and it gets to be a pain buying for others. The older Melz can require a lot of work replacing the solder and making sure the new solder adheres to each wire.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry, I would help but I have already given you free tubes and it gets to be a pain buying for others. The older Melz can require a lot of work replacing the solder and making sure the new solder adheres to each wire.


Thanks but no need, am able to order from all other suppliers (Amazon, Etsy, Lowtechelec, Tube Depot, The Tube Store), just need to look around. Jeff from Lowtechelec is assisting in searching as well 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks but no need, am able to order from all other suppliers (Amazon, Etsy, Lowtechelec, Tube Depot, The Tube Store), just need to look around. Jeff from Lowtechelec is assisting in searching as well 🙂


I told him about 1578's a long time ago, but apparently he does not see many of them. Occasionally a Russian seller will come on Ebay.

Now the interesting thing is, I do not see many here in the states who own the Melz trying to sell them as used. To sell them at retail is not easy since the price can be so high from the Russians.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I told him about 1578's a long time ago, but apparently he does not see many of them...



Probably due to no (confirmed) Soviet nuclear reactors or Soviet military bases in Virginia?


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Probably due to no (confirmed) Soviet nuclear reactors or Soviet military bases in Virginia?


Maryland I believe but I get the point lol.


----------



## Louisiana

After about 50 hours of play, the KEN-RAD slowly becomes quiet!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 6, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> After about 50 hours of play, the KEN-RAD slowly becomes quiet!


Let it cool down for a day or so, try it again, then be prepared to work on the solder in the pins if it acts up again.  
Are you running the GE 5998A power tube?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Louisiana said:


> After about 50 hours of play, the KEN-RAD slowly becomes quiet!


Seems the DV got a full face job with the pot and balanced output.
Normally Tube amps are not balance friendly technically.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems the DV got a full face job with the pot and balanced output.
> Normally Tube amps are not balance friendly technically.


Is the thing about tube amps something you read somewhere?

Oh and I just got a GE 5998A from the gentleman with a bunch for sale and this one seems perfect so far. He even wrote me a nice thank you note and included food items in the box lol. I do not recall if FLTWS actually used my real name when he complained about his two tubes but that could have been lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Is the thing about tube amps something you read somewhere?
> 
> Oh and I just got a GE 5998A from the gentleman with a bunch for sale and this one seems perfect so far. He even wrote me a nice thank you note and included food items in the box lol. I do not recall if FLTWS actually used my real name when he complained about his two tubes but that could have been lol.


I may be wrong but from what I know, SET amps are mostly single ended  so they cannot process separate inverted and non-inverted signal components since there is only one signal path. OTL could be different but it's rare to encounter balanced XLR input or balanced outputs even on the most expensive amps but I could be wrong ☹
Even with amps having parallel single architecture with dual power and dual output tubes, did not see any with balanced in and out.
Hybrid amps with balanced in and outs do exist big time though.


----------



## Louisiana

Paladin79 said:


> Are you running the GE 5998A power tube?


6080 GE 5 star vintage 1960ies production, D-getter.


----------



## Paladin79

Louisiana said:


> 6080 GE 5 star vintage 1960ies production, D-getter.


Oh ok, how are you liking that tube? I have to admit I have not tried the GE 6080.

  And of course I could be dead wrong about the Ken-Rad but the last time someone said a series of tubes took 100 hours to settle in I looked into it and ran experiments. It was the solder in that case but they were Russian tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I told him about 1578's a long time ago, but apparently he does not see many of them. Occasionally a Russian seller will come on Ebay.
> 
> Now the interesting thing is, I do not see many here in the states who own the Melz trying to sell them as used. To sell them at retail is not easy since the price can be so high from the Russians.


There's currently a Russian seller (well, Ukranian to be exact) posting on Etsy as well.  Have the ones below incoming (these are NOT for the DV...they aren't 6SN7 subs). 

He's not currently listing any Melz, but @HTSkywalker it may be worth a message to him to check if he has any (if you have any interest).

https://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageVacuumTube?ref=l2-about-shopname


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's currently a Russian seller (well, Ukranian to be exact) posting on Etsy as well.  Have the ones below incoming (these are NOT for the DV...they aren't 6SN7 subs).
> 
> He's not currently listing any Melz, but @HTSkywalker it may be worth a message to him to check if he has any (if you have any interest).
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageVacuumTube?ref=l2-about-shopname


OOPs I meant Etsy not Ebay, rushing to get ready for a Zoom meeting, later.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> And of course I could be dead wrong about the Ken-Rad but the last time someone said a series of tubes took 100 hours to settle in I looked into it and ran experiments.



That guy must have been a real idiot.


----------



## Slade01 (May 6, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> 6080 GE 5 star vintage 1960ies production, D-getter.


How are you liking that 5-Star series?   I've always heard this is GE's version of Sylvania's Gold Brand series.  How does it sound?


----------



## Louisiana

Paladin79 said:


> Oh ok, how are you liking that tube? I have to admit I have not tried the GE 6080.


It's hard to say, at the moment I've just changed everything: headphones, DAC, tubes.
I think I need a little more time. 



Paladin79 said:


> And of course I could be dead wrong about the Ken-Rad but the last time someone said a series of tubes took 100 hours to settle in I looked into it and ran experiments. It was the solder in that case but they were Russian tubes.


When I first installed the KEN-RAD, an incredibly loud hum was heard over the music.
When I touched the body of the DV, it got worse, even if I just knocked the table the DV was on!

Now I can't hear any hum, knock on the table, or touch the device, and nothing happens.
The humming is only there when I turn the volume down , and the music is off.



Slade01 said:


> How are you liking that 5-Star series?   I've always hear this is GE's version of Sylvania's Gold Brand series.  How does it sound?


Please see what I wrote above


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> There's currently a Russian seller (well, Ukranian to be exact) posting on Etsy as well.  Have the ones below incoming (these are NOT for the DV...they aren't 6SN7 subs).
> 
> He's not currently listing any Melz, but @HTSkywalker it may be worth a message to him to check if he has any (if you have any interest).
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageVacuumTube?ref=l2-about-shopname



This is a 12AU7 equivalent right?  Speaking of Sylvania GBs - this reminds so much of the the Syl Triple Mica 5814 - which are are really top notch sounding.   I didn't know russians also did the red tip thing.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> There's currently a Russian seller (well, Ukranian to be exact) posting on Etsy as well.  Have the ones below incoming (these are NOT for the DV...they aren't 6SN7 subs).
> 
> He's not currently listing any Melz, but @HTSkywalker it may be worth a message to him to check if he has any (if you have any interest).
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageVacuumTube?ref=l2-about-shopname


Thanks for the info, will check with him "Igor"


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Is the thing about tube amps something you read somewhere?
> 
> Oh and I just got a GE 5998A from the gentleman with a bunch for sale and this one seems perfect so far. He even wrote me a nice thank you note and included food items in the box lol. I do not recall if FLTWS actually used my real name when he complained about his two tubes but that could have been lol.


Haha...Did you get the apple sauce? Or Cliff bar? I didn't trust the food stuff and threw it out...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Is the thing about tube amps something you read somewhere?
> 
> Oh and I just got a GE 5998A from the gentleman with a bunch for sale and this one seems perfect so far. He even wrote me a nice thank you note and included food items in the box lol. I do not recall if FLTWS actually used my real name when he complained about his two tubes but that could have been lol.


I bought mine from the same gent.  Got a Cliff Bar and Apple Sauce pack along with a very well packaged 5998A!  

** I ate it and am still among the living.


----------



## Paladin79

I got both as well lol, maybe he got those from the same warehouse that held the tubes lol. I just hope they are newer.


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't normally eat unsolicited food sent by strangers, but by the time I opened his extremely well wrapped shipping container, I had expended all my energy and needed that Cliff Bar!


----------



## HTSkywalker

“Hello. I don't have 6SN7. But I have 6N8S (made in USSR) - low frequency double triode, direct full analogue of 
foreign 6SN7. I need a time to find it.”
From the seller, any ideas anyone ?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> OOPs I meant Etsy not Ebay....



Duh.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> This is a 12AU7 equivalent right?  Speaking of Sylvania GBs - this reminds so much of the the Syl Triple Mica 5814 - which are are really top notch sounding.   I didn't know russians also did the red tip thing.


Actually it's somewhere between a 6N1P and a 6N5P, but designed as a military-use tube.  Some sellers state it is a 6N1P sub, and others state it's a 6N5P sub.  Since I didn't have any, I figured I'd better get some as they are becoming rather rare.  LOL!  Seriously, if the 1539 is to a 6N1P what a 1578 is to a standard 6N8S, these might be pretty special.  Might suck too.  But at 4 for $30 delivered, I figured it was worth a try.  My Alana preamp in the big rig uses a pair of 6N1P's in the phono section, so that's where these will go first for trial.  Need really quiet tubes in that application, and so far the Voshkod rocket logo 6N1P's have been the go-to tubes. I like the sound of a couple different 6DJ8's there better (50's Telefunkens and early '60's Holland-made D-getter Amperexes), but they both have a noticeably higher background noise level.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> “Hello. I don't have 6SN7. But I have 6N8S (made in USSR) - low frequency double triode, direct full analogue of
> foreign 6SN7. I need a time to find it.”
> From the seller, any ideas anyone ?


The 6N8S is the Russian-numbered equivalent to a 6SN7.  So is the 6H8C (different alphabet, same tube).  But while a 1578 is electrically the same as a 6N8S (and 6SN7), it is a much higher grade tube.  So while any 6N8S will work in place of a 6SN7, any 6N8S is not (necessarily) a 1578.  The 1950's-manufacture Foton 6N8S's are some of my favorite (cheap) tubes, but Foton didn't make a 1578 -- only Melz did.  Hope that makes sense...somehow.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't normally eat unsolicited food sent by strangers...



Regardless of what it is or who sent it, it's still probably safer and better tasting than TX BBQ.  Just sayin'...


----------



## Paladin79 (May 6, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I bought mine from the same gent.  Got a Cliff Bar and Apple Sauce pack along with a very well packaged 5998A!
> 
> ** I ate it and am still among the living.


I just checked the date codes on the food that came with the tube. Applesauce best before 2018, 2016 on the cookie lol.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I just checked the date codes on the food that came with the tubed. Applesauce best before 2018, 2016 on the cookie lol.


oh $h1t!!! Glad I passed...lolz


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> oh $h1t!!! Glad I passed...lolz


And there's a date code on a lot of GE tubes too.  "Best before 1945" (which is when they bought and began the ruination of Ken-Rad).


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I just checked the date codes on the food that came with the tubed. Applesauce best before 2018, 2016 on the cookie lol.



A 'Best if before' date is not the same as 'Deadly if after' date.  In my case, it seems that no one told the Cliff Bar or Apple Sauce cause it was still tasty.  Besides -- 2016 was a great year for Cliff Bars.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Duh.


You best hope you proof read everything you ever write from now on. How do they say it in your neck of the woods? "I will be watching you like a hawk!!! like a hawk!"

You do live in Mayberry right, and your real name is Otis?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> A 'Best if before' date is not the same as 'Deadly if after' date.  In my case, it seems that no one told the Cliff Bar or Apple Sauce cause it was still tasty.  Besides -- 2016 was a great year for Cliff Bars.


I will start up a collection for flowers, I bet Cowen will give $5 if I twist his arm.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2021)

I'm fully vaccinated so I'm good.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ....your real name is Otis?



Goober, dangit.  Goober.  Gomer's cousin.


----------



## sam6550a

Galapac said:


> Haha...Did you get the apple sauce? Or Cliff bar? I didn't trust the food stuff and threw it out...


I received one of each in each tube order!


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I got both as well lol, maybe he got those from the same warehouse that held the tubes lol. I just hope they are newer.


Not by much!!


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Regardless of what it is or who sent it, it's still probably safer and better tasting than TX BBQ.  Just sayin'...


Opinion, opinion.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, I must be the seller's favorite as I received BOTH in my 1 tube order.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I must be the seller's favorite as I received BOTH in my 1 tube order.


Don't brag ripper, so did I. He must have recognized our discriminating tastes!!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I received one of each in each tube order!


I am telling you the guy got a case of each when he bought the case of tubes lol


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am telling you the guy got a case of each when he bought the case of tubes lol


He HAD to take them to get the "good price" on the 5998A stash!


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2021)

Cliff Bars and squeezable Apple Sauce are like wine -- they are better with age.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Cliff Bars and squeezable Apple Sauce are like wine -- they are better with age.


Yeah but the main ingredient in each was preservatives!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The 6N8S is the Russian-numbered equivalent to a 6SN7.  So is the 6H8C (different alphabet, same tube).  But while a 1578 is electrically the same as a 6N8S (and 6SN7), it is a much higher grade tube.  So while any 6N8S will work in place of a 6SN7, any 6N8S is not (necessarily) a 1578.  The 1950's-manufacture Foton 6N8S's are some of my favorite (cheap) tubes, but Foton didn't make a 1578 -- only Melz did.  Hope that makes sense...somehow.


So is it worth to ask about a specific  6SN8 ?


----------



## Ripper2860

I know Bill is very worried about my well-being and is planning a candle-light vigil for me, but really, I'm fine.  

** If it makes anyone feel better, I only had a bite of the Cliff Bar and gave the Apple Sauce to my wife.


----------



## Paladin79

Back to tubes though, the GE has no issues out of the box, I am listening to it with a 1958 perforated plate Melz and the sound is excellent even without a lot of burn in. After a while I will compare this setup to a GE with a 61, A/B.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> So is it worth to ask about a specific  6SN8 ?


6N8S is the same as 6SN7.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So is it worth to ask about a specific  6SN8 ?


Depending on brand I can probably help with Melz but a photo might help as well.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah but the main ingredient in each was preservatives!


Do the preservatives help old guys??


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Do the preservatives help old guys??


I am hoping single malt scotch falls into that category if they do.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> So is it worth to ask about a specific  6SN8 ?


6N8S, just to be clear.  If you're looking for the tubes that @Paladin79 speaks highly of, then you'll be looking for a 1578, which is a "special" 6N8S.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Do the preservatives help old guys??


If you'd seen a recent picture of @Ripper2860 , you'd fully understand why the answer is no.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 6N8S, just to be clear.  If you're looking for the tubes that @Paladin79 speaks highly of, then you'll be looking for a 1578, which is a "special" 6N8S.


We call a specific type of Russian tube 1578, but often they do not have that marking on them. Sometimes it gets added on later by sellers. These tubes get complicated lol. 1578 was marked on some tubes that had well balanced triodes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will start up a collection for flowers, I bet Cowen will give $5 if I twist his arm.


Depends on who they're for.  If it's someone I like, I may even do $6.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@Paladin79 why is (average) Incubus Elegan not additionally using a rectifier tube? I would have thought you would cherish a chance to be able to spend even more on tubes, so I am guessing there should be a good reason not to.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am hoping single malt scotch falls into that category if they do.


Most definitely! My cardiologist no longer bugs me about my drinking.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We call a specific type of Russian tube 1578, but often they do not have that marking on them. Sometimes it gets added on later by sellers. These tubes get complicated lol. 1578 was marked on some tubes that had well balanced triodes.


Yeah, there are a lot of variations.  The best thing would be for @HTSkywalker to buy every one he can get his hands on, send them to me, and then I'll send him back the good ones.  Great plan, right?


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Depending on brand I can probably help with Melz but a photo might help as well.


Will ask him what he got and will check with you guys edited with Bill 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> Most definitely! My cardiologist no longer bugs me about my drinking.


Probably he gave up on you 😊


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of variations.  The best thing would be for @HTSkywalker to buy every one he can get his hands on, send them to me, and then I'll send him back the good ones.  Great plan, right?


I tried to tell him, $2500 is a good start. Ah this GE 5998A can be glorious, listening to Larry Carlton, Song For Katie.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of variations.  The best thing would be for @HTSkywalker to buy every one he can get his hands on, send them to me, and then I'll send him back the good ones.  Great plan, right?


Better do it the @Paladin79  way, you check I cultivate then we tell the rest


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Better do it the @Paladin79  way, you check I cultivate then we tell the rest


Many times I have told you what I would buy. In one case I even told folks, there is a wonderful tube on Ebay, if you do not buy it today I will tomorrow lol. What could be more fair? I think I even did that on the 1961 as I recall.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 6, 2021)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @Paladin79 why is (average) Incubus Elegan not additionally using a rectifier tube? I would have thought you would cherish a chance to be able to spend even more on tubes, so I am guessing there should be a good reason not to.


I am a Gemini, I generally do things in twos and a rectifier is so much more work. I am trying to keep the amp simple and the cabinets complicated.    I spend next to nothing on tubes the way I figure it. The amps pay for the tubes and I get some semi serious offers for the amps. I also help out friends where I can. Is that answer good enough or shall I try another lol?



This amp could fetch 10-15 quality tubes but I cannot find many I want to buy right now and Satsumas are out of season.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I am a Gemini, I generally do things in twos and a rectifier is so much more work. I am trying to keep the amp simple and the cabinets complicated.    I spend next to nothing on tubes the way I figure it. The amps pay for the tubes and I get some semi serious offers for the amps. I also help out friends where I can. Is that answer good enough or shall I try another lol?



I am not one to judge attraction to certain numbers, a mild affliction affecting the very best of us!
It's a good enough answer for me, though I would have thought you simply preferred non-tube rectification sound (like Bottlehead guys).
And yes, I noticed there aren't that many affordable rectified amps.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I am not one to judge attraction to certain numbers, a mild affliction affecting the very best of us!
> It's a good enough answer for me, though I would have thought you simply preferred non-tube rectification sound (like Bottlehead guys).
> And yes, I noticed there aren't that many affordable rectified amps.


It is partially a space issue for me and one less thing to think about in design. The amp was designed to show off differences in 6sn7 tubes and I donated four identical amps for a blind tube test. It is hard to find four matched power tubes but it can be done. Trying to match four more rectifier tubes was not something I wanted to do, I really do not know that much about them. Along the way I sent another sample of the amp to friends and they seemed to like the sound, @Ripper2860, @bcowen, @FLTWS, and maybe @Rensek were among my test subjects on here who liked it along with right at 20 local friends. Suddenly I was just trying to keep up with demand and just trying to get friends something to remember me by.


----------



## Louisiana




----------



## Louisiana (May 7, 2021)

Which tubes can I use without an adapter in the DV?

Driver:
6SN7, CV181, ?

Power:
6AS7, 6080, ECC230 ?


----------



## Paladin79

6sn7 equivalents such as Russian tubes marked 6h8c

power is pretty easy, 6080, 6as7g, 5998a, and 7236 tubes  also 421A's


----------



## bcowen

Louisiana said:


> Which tubes can I use without an adapter in the DV?
> 
> Driver:
> 6SN7, CV181, ?
> ...


On the power side, also a lot of European "CV" numbered equivalents.  Always best to check the tube's data sheet though if you're looking at an alternate type, and absolutely DO NOT rely on Ebay sellers listing multiple tube "compatibilities."  There is one seller that constantly lists a 6336 tube as a 6080 / 6AS7 equivalent.  It is not -- it pulls almost twice the heater current and would stand a good chance of frying the DV's transformer as I doubt there's enough headroom to cover that big an increase.  The ones listed below (as well as what @Paladin79 previously noted) are all safe substitutes that can be plugged in directly.


----------



## Paladin79

Tomorrow assembly. Luckily this is a loaner since I learned what not to do with a router.  😖


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Tomorrow assembly. Luckily this is a loaner since I learned what not to do with a router.  😖


Do you have all your fingertips?...


----------



## Paladin79

Yep even the one that had to grow back on my right thumb.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Tomorrow assembly. Luckily this is a loaner since I learned what not to do with a router.  😖


Something to do with the firewall settings?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 7, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Something to do with the firewall settings?


Lol

More to do with trying to be too intricate too quickly with some very hard wood on a router table.😜


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Something to do with the firewall settings?


*R O F L!*  That one took me a minute....but then I just woke up from my nap.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> *R O F L!*  That one took me a minute....but then I just woke up from my nap.


Please no photos, you are probably still wearing your bunny slippers.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tomorrow assembly. Luckily this is a loaner since I learned what not to do with a router.  😖


That looks almost as good as my cardboard.  Almost.  

Seriously, that's pretty sweet!  Going to be gorgeous once it has some tubes lit up on top.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Please no photos, you are probably still wearing your bunny slippers.


No worries.  I've still not figured out how to use the selfie camera on my iPhone.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That looks almost as good as my cardboard.  Almost.
> 
> Seriously, that's pretty sweet!  Going to be gorgeous once it has some tubes lit up on top.


Yep I predict by noon tomorrow it will be a functioning amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No worries.  I've still not figured out how to use the selfie camera on my iPhone.


iPhone 1 have a selfie cam ??? 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Yep I predict by noon tomorrow it will be a functioning amp.


That's a hefty chunk of an amp, should look gorgeous when fully assembled 👍👍


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No worries.  I've still not figured out how to use the selfie camera on my iPhone.


That could take a while...


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That's a hefty chunk of an amp, should look gorgeous when fully assembled 👍👍


I like a substantial base so as to cut down on vibrations. After morning coffee  it will be non-stop work till completed. Maybe an occasional message.😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> iPhone 1 have a selfie cam ??? 🤣🤣🤣


LOL!  Actually it just says "Phone" and I painted a small "i" in front.  Kind of like the "C" I add to the end of my GE tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Actually it just says "Phone" and I painted a small "i" in front.  Kind of like the "C" I add to the end of my GE tubes.


First Gen was hand assembled by Steve Jobs 😛


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> First Gen was hand assembled by Steve Jobs AG Bell 😛


----------



## Paladin79

Assembly is taking place once I got Finnegan out of my chair. The blue coffee cup is my wife’s work. They are available in the lobby.😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Assembly is taking place once I got Finnegan out of my chair. The blue coffee cup is my wife’s work. They are available in the lobby.😎


Coming out nicely, big time 👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Coming out nicely, big time 👍


It is taking longer than expected because I had company, other than Finnegan.


----------



## Louisiana




----------



## Paladin79

My loaner amp is up and running. Right now with a 61 Melz 1578 and a GE 5998A


----------



## JKDJedi

morning coffee roll...  fired up the Bendix Tung Sol combo.. 


Louisiana said:


>


Nice set up there..which dac is that and where can I get that stand? 👍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My loaner amp is up and running. Right now with a 61 Melz 1578 and a GE 5998A


Awesome!  Looks great, Tom.

(I won't say anything about it sitting on a cherry shelf )


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> My loaner amp is up and running. Right now with a 61 Melz 1578 and a GE 5998A


Excellent work as always, beautiful amp.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Excellent work as always, beautiful amp.


I have been listening all afternoon and between the amps and the tubes and some Utopias, it is hard to walk away from this sound.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My loaner amp is up and running. Right now with a 61 Melz 1578 and a GE 5998A


Stunning....stunning....


----------



## therremans

Okay, @Paladin79, finally ordered a Melz 1578 today. Looking forward to hearing it, supposed to be from 1959.





I also found these today at our Goodwill. Accessories in plastic and appears someone just never used them. They sound like Bose.. that aggressive V curve out of the box but most music comes out sounding pretty good. That aside, their selling point is active noise canceling and it works great. Best thing is they were only $8.


----------



## jonathan c

Does Goodwill accept DarkVoice with ‘rice filled’ tubes / GE tubes (charity tax deduction = zero...)?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Does Goodwill accept DarkVoice with ‘rice filled’ tubes / GE tubes (charity tax deduction = zero...)?


That's nasty 🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79 (May 9, 2021)

therremans said:


> Okay, @Paladin79, finally ordered a Melz 1578 today. Looking forward to hearing it, supposed to be from 1959.
> 
> 
> I also found these today at our Goodwill. Accessories in plastic and appears someone just never used them. They sound like Bose.. that aggressive V curve out of the box but most music comes out sounding pretty good. That aside, their selling point is active noise canceling and it works great. Best thing is they were only $8.


1959 is an excellent year, well done, if you run into any issues with noise or hum and cannot re-solder the pins yourself I would help. I had a couple recently that I had to go over a few times before the solder would stick to the inside wire. I cannot quite make out the year in the photo but the Russians are pretty good about getting the dates right on those tubes if it is coming in from Russia.

I need to repair some headphones that I gave to someone along with an Incubus amp, if not repairable I was thinking of giving him my Senn 6xx but then I looked on Ebay and saw what some were going for lol. I will rebuild the other headphones one way or the other.

These look very good as well and there are several of them...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224333560544?hash=item343b527ae0:g:rx0AAOSwWNRgFTE9

An excellent photo showing year, and all the proper attributes of the 1578, now find one of these without the perforated plates and you are getting into holy grail territory IMHO.


----------



## maketus (May 9, 2021)

used only a month dark voice 336se.  I immediately switched stock tubs. Svetlana and black teasure combo and bought some fotons. Stock tubes not humm at all,deadly silent. But foton and black teasure buzz.  I think i need to make  that fizz mod. but i am noob in eletricwork.  what way to put bybasscaps , i think there is negative and positive legs.  i saw some pictures where to put them on. put which way
which would be better 220uF/25V caps.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801815383.html
or
https://bit.ly/3he37nh

also.  what analog volume pot could think of replacing the original .

i have twoyears warranty. but maybe this is strongbuild 240v version. not burndown .  or maybe better to wait when warranty is over then make mods ?

sry me wierd english language not my native and just start to learn


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 9, 2021)

maketus said:


> used only a month dark voice 336se.  I immediately switched stock tubs. Svetlana and black teasure combo and bought some fotons. Stock tubes not humm at all,deadly silent. But foton and black teasure buzz.  I think i need to make  that fizz mod. but i am noob in eletricwork.  what way to put bybasscaps , i think there is negative and positive legs.  i saw some pictures where to put them on. put which way
> which would be better 220uF/25V caps.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801815383.html
> or
> https://bit.ly/3he37nh
> ...


In fact there is no dead silent DV 😊
A slight hum over a certain dial is normal.
Try different tubes and see if the hum and buzz persists all there sane, try to keep it on for a total of 72 hours on one set of tubes and decide after.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice purchase, but holy cow -   the Melz perf plate 1578s have gone from high to insanely high prices!  😯


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice purchase, but holy cow -   the Melz perf plate 1578s have gone from high to insanely high prices!  😯


It has been that way for a while, now the Russians are selling lesser Melz for similar money, or trying to.


----------



## Ripper2860

Last I checked the perf plates  were at low to mid $100 each.    Now they are typically $200+ each!   My vacuum tube investment retirement strategy seems to be paying off.  😄


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Last I checked the perf plates  were at low to mid $100 each.    Now they are typically $200+ each!   My vacuum tube investment retirement strategy seems to be paying off.  😄


I can still buy large batches at low prices but....not the years I want. $140 each with shipping included is not outrageous and I can buy now or wait for the price to go up even more.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 9, 2021)

Yeah, but that listing was $280 each!  Of course, they also accepted offers, so it may have sold for less, but geez!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 9, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, but that listing was $280 each!  If course, they also accepted offers, so it may have sold for less, but geez!


Shop for tubes much? lol The listing is for a pair for $280, photo even shows a pair, says 2 times and mentions a pair. Oh and it even says matched pair.


----------



## therremans

I (quickly) purchased mine because he was only asking $40, shipping was an extra $15. I couldn’t let this one go. It was labeled as used but testing good, we will find out what it tests. Hopefully no issues with hum, etc but will resolder if I find any problems.



maketus said:


> i think there is negative and positive legs.  i saw some pictures where to put them on. put which way
> which would be better 220uF/25V caps.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801815383.html
> or
> https://bit.ly/3he37nh
> ...


Yeah a lot of caps are polar. The side with a line is the (-) end. This points away from the tube socket. For volume pot, ALPS RK27 blue 10k or 20k, (knurled shaft if you want to use the stock volume knob)


----------



## JKDJedi

maketus said:


> used only a month dark voice 336se.  I immediately switched stock tubs. Svetlana and black teasure combo and bought some fotons. Stock tubes not humm at all,deadly silent. But foton and black teasure buzz.  I think i need to make  that fizz mod. but i am noob in eletricwork.  what way to put bybasscaps , i think there is negative and positive legs.  i saw some pictures where to put them on. put which way
> which would be better 220uF/25V caps.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32801815383.html
> or
> https://bit.ly/3he37nh
> ...


Just leave it on for a few days.. should go away


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 9, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Shop for tubes much? lol The listing is for a pair for $280, photo even shows a pair, says 2 times and mentions a pair. Oh and it even says matched pair.


Oops.  Says each, but I guess they meant each lot with a lot being 2.  I did not read the details as I'm not looking to buy.   And yes the pic shows 2 but quite a few sellers list pics of multiple tubes when they have more than 1 available. 

I'm a dumbass.  Carry on.  😒


----------



## bcowen (May 9, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Just leave it on for a few days.. should go away


May not with the Foton.  My DV didn't have much hum (at least compared to others descriptions) when it was bone stock, but the Foton was just unusable until I added the bypass caps.  Then it was dead quiet.  With the Foton (which was well broken-in already) it was more of a loud buzz than a hum.  Interestingly, the '63 Melz 1578 was fine...slightly louder background hum with it than some US-made 6SN7's, but only slightly and not really intrusive once the music started.  Of course with Marilyn Manson at 100 dB's, background noise is either 1) irrelevant or 2) the only thing happening.....depending on perspective.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a dumbass.  Carry on.  😒


Glad to see your Prevagen is finally kicking in...


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> May not with the Foton.  My DV didn't have much hum (at least compared to others descriptions) when it was bone stock, but the Foton was just unusable until I added the bypass caps.  Then it was dead quiet.  With the Foton (which was well broken-in already) it was more of a loud buzz than a hum.  Interestingly, the '63 Melz 1578 was fine...slightly louder background hum with it than some US-made 6SN7's, but only slightly and not really intrusive once the music started.  Of course with Marilyn Manson at 100 dB's, background noise is either 1) irrelevant or 2) the only thing happening.....depending on perspective.  LOL!


Not sure a hum or a buzz no matter how loud would give a negative effect on any of MM songs (being classical style and all 😜😜)


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure a hum or a buzz no matter how loud would give a negative effect on any of MM songs (being classical style and all 😜😜)


The hum and buzz would be an improvement with MM.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact there is no dead silent DV 😊


Wrong! What about an unplugged DV....silence is golden?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Wrong! What about an unplugged DV....silence is golden?...


That would be DarkNoVoice DNV 😜


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> That would be DarkNoVoice DNV 😜


Until I modify mine it will remain no voice lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Until I modify mine it will remain no voice lol.


For the price and with the right tubes, it’s doing a hell of a job as a preamp and not a bad job as a headphone amp either.
Eagerly looking forward for you applying your surgical skills on it 😊
Probably no Chinese components would still be left inside by the time you’re done 😜


----------



## JKDJedi (May 9, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> 1959 is an excellent year, well done, if you run into any issues with noise or hum and cannot re-solder the pins yourself I would help. I had a couple recently that I had to go over a few times before the solder would stick to the inside wire. I cannot quite make out the year in the photo but the Russians are pretty good about getting the dates right on those tubes if it is coming in from Russia.
> 
> I need to repair some headphones that I gave to someone along with an Incubus amp, if not repairable I was thinking of giving him my Senn 6xx but then I looked on Ebay and saw what some were going for lol. I will rebuild the other headphones one way or the other.
> 
> ...


And just when I thought it was safe to go back into the Sea...  so tempting!!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 9, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> And just when I thought it was safe to go back into the sea...  so tempting!!


I am now sticking with late 50’s and early 60’s on these.😎 These are just my preferences of course as well as with seven friends who heard and scored them. Now many have heard the 63 so you understand the sound profile. Some have heard the 58 solid plate. I am concerned with quality of sound, not so much price or availability.


----------



## maketus

i found  this adapter https://www.ebay.com/itm/201606491849?hash=item2ef0aeeec9:g:bgEAAOSwOVpXZVKS i allready own mullard EF95 tubes.  how they work in darkvoice with this . 6sn7 is 0.6ampere. and 2xEF95 only 0.35ampere ,what changes . gain ?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Absolutely and the sound is better than other such Bluetooth devices I own.
> 
> I need to make a shelf for it.


I found a new addition for your speaker…
https://gizmodo.com/sound-reactive-bluetooth-speaker-uses-magnetic-ferroflu-1846729756


----------



## HTSkywalker

https://people.com/music/marilyn-ma...smithline-details-abuse-cover-story/?amp=true
🤐🤐🤐😜😜😜


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I found a new addition for your speaker…
> https://gizmodo.com/sound-reactive-bluetooth-speaker-uses-magnetic-ferroflu-1846729756


Dang!  A real working window to the inside of @Ripper2860 's head.  Cool!


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## bcowen (May 12, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> https://people.com/music/marilyn-ma...smithline-details-abuse-cover-story/?amp=true
> 🤐🤐🤐😜😜😜


This has been out there for a while.  So let's recap:  the guy is weird.  Lots of musicians and artists are weird.  He's quite likely in the top 1% of weird, but it's not like that's new news and just developed a short time ago. His music is dark (well, like super-dark), profanity-laden, is offensive to many, and will never, ever be mistaken for a cut off an ABBA album.  This is not new news either. It's his form of art, and like any form of art some people will like it and some won't.  Nobody has to listen to it if they choose not to.  Before anyone draws the wrong conclusion, I'm in no way suggesting or even remotely implying that **anything** non-consensual (as some of these stories have asserted) is OK or acceptable.  Just no -- regardless of money or fame or notoriety or anything else.  But at this point, all that's been shown is a "she said, he said" scenario.  Who exactly did this girl think she was dating? Winnie the Pooh?  Gimme a break.


----------



## Ripper2860

Not gonna touch this one with a 10 foot Satanic trident.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Not gonna touch this one with a 10 foot Satanic trident.


Chicken.


----------



## Ripper2860

Those who post and then run away will live to post another day. 😏


----------



## Galapac

Poking the chicken...🌂🐥


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Those who post and then run away will live to post another day. 😏


Those who post and run away lose the most and rue the day....😔...👹...👻...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 12, 2021)

I like a good Cajun rue...   



** I know.  I know.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Poking the chicken...🌂🐥


LOL!

Except never bring an umbrella to a sword fight.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> Except never bring an umbrella to a sword fight.


That reminds me of a line spoken by Sean Connery in “The Untouchables” (with Kevin Costner & others):  “Typical [slur for an Italian], brings a knife to a gunfight.”


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> This has been out there for a while.  So let's recap:  the guy is weird.  Lots of musicians and artists are weird.  He's quite likely in the top 1% of weird, but it's not like that's new news and just developed a short time ago. His music is dark (well, like super-dark), profanity-laden, is offensive to many, and will never, ever be mistaken for a cut off an ABBA album.  This is not new news either. It's his form of art, and like any form of art some people will like it and some won't.  Nobody has to listen to it if they choose not to.  Before anyone draws the wrong conclusion, I'm in no way suggesting or even remotely implying that **anything** non-consensual (as some of these stories have asserted) is OK or acceptable.  Just no -- regardless of money or fame or notoriety or anything else.  But at this point, all that's been shown is a "she said, he said" scenario.  Who exactly did this girl think she was dating? Winnie the Pooh?  Gimme a break.


Well you got a valid point, in fact 2 valid ones  
The girl is definitely no angel as she approached him or he approached her knowing exactly who he is, definitely not Winnie, not even remotely.
second point, IMHO it takes some weird area of a personality to be present in a threshold between sanity and insanity to be able to stand out in music the same way he is as he have lots of followers and fans and this says a lot.
And just like any relation in life, things can go south but with celebrities tabloid needs to fill lines and big banners while emphasizing on things.
Now back to our warm and shiny little tubes discussions


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> Except never bring an umbrella to a sword fight.


Depends on what kind of umbrella, check this tactical fighting umbrella 😁


----------



## Paladin79 (May 15, 2021)

I came across an interesting tube a couple days ago, a grey glass Tung Sol. Anyone every tried one?


----------



## Ripper2860

OMG!!  Is that amp still not nestled in a box and ready to ship?  I think you may be experiencing premature separation anxiety and trying to put off its inevitable departure as long as possible!!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> OMG!!  Is that amp still not nestled in a box and ready to ship?  I think you may be experiencing premature separation anxiety and trying to put off its inevitable departure as long as possible!!


it shipped yesterday lol, along with that grey glass and a black glass Tung Sol. I do like the looks of this one but I hope to make the next one even prettier.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I came across an interesting tube a couple days ago, a grey glass Tung Sol. Anyone every tried one?


Overall, 😍


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I came across an interesting tube a couple days ago, a grey glass Tung Sol. Anyone every tried one?


Overall, 😍


----------



## Paladin79 (May 15, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Overall, 😍


If I get this one back I may send it on an east coast tour.


----------



## Paladin79

Finnegan is helping


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping


Cats seem to have a thing for Tiger Maple for some reason...


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping


Looks like he is delivering a critique of your shed sound system: "What is this? Class D? NO tubes? Blasphemy"!!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping


Your work is the cat’s meow...


----------



## Paladin79 (May 15, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Looks like he is delivering a critique of your shed sound system: "What is this? Class D? NO tubes? Blasphemy"!!


Hey this is for my wife lol, you want me to waste tubes on her? Probably class D, as if I am supposed to check. I ran wires and made it pretty, my work is done other than the custom shelf it will sit on.

Finnegan finally hit the wall and stole my chair for a catnap.

He followed me back inside for serious listening.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan finally hit the wall and stole my chair for a catnap.
> 
> He followed me back inside for serious listening.


He's just hugging the Carolina Blue seat fabric.  Smart cat.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> He's just hugging the Carolina Blue seat fabric.  Smart cat.


Are you color blind??? The chair is green.  You best change your allegiance to the North Texas mean green.!!!😺😺😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Are you color blind??? The chair is green.  You best change your allegiance to the North Texas mean green.!!!😺😺😺


Sure looks blue on my laptop screen.  Besides, who would have a green chair?  Please don't tell me you still have Harvest Gold appliances in the kitchen....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sure looks blue on my laptop screen.  Besides, who would have a green chair?  Please don't tell me you still have Harvest Gold appliances in the kitchen....


Wait you have a kitchen?  I generally just throw some animal parts on the grill at our fire pit. We had to sell our kitchen to pay for the pottery studio.   Besides which we have the fighting Irish.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait you have a kitchen?  I generally just throw some animal parts on the grill at our fire pit. We had to sell our kitchen to pay for the pottery studio.   Besides which we have the fighting Irish.


That's most definitely green, unlike your chair.  But fighting *that* would be the last thing on my mind, Irish or otherwise.


----------



## jonathan c

Speaking of greenbacks, an old favourite villain is at it again: wege_high_tubes with a pair of Mullard re-branded GZ34 rectifier tubes...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's most definitely green, unlike your chair.  But fighting *that* would be the last thing on my mind, Irish or otherwise.




I am as not kidding about cooking over a fire pit on occasion, please note the grass is green and not Carolina blue.😺😺😺


----------



## bcowen

If anybody wants a GE 6550A from BangyBang, here you go.      

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1848405765...,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am as not kidding about cooking over a fire pit on occasion, please note the grass is green and not Carolina blue.😺😺😺


Here’s a reply that @bcowen would appreciate (if not authored): “If God is not a Tarheel, why is the sky Carolina blue?”


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Here’s a reply that @bcowen would appreciate (if not authored): “If God is not a Tarheel, why is the sky Carolina blue?”


LOL!  I had a bumper sticker with that on my car back in high school.  I think the sticker might have been worth more than the car.    

And back in those days, NC State University was the main rival -- the Wolfpack.  Duke was a nobody in those days.  So I also had a bumper sticker with "The only _good_ Pack is a 6-Pack."


----------



## Ripper2860

God doesn't have time for such trivial affairs as college sports.   Any time He has for sports is focused solely on doing everything possible to ensure that the Dallas Cowboys never return to the Superbowl.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If anybody wants a GE 6550A from BangyBang, here you go.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/184840576557?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l1120&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=0e7547c358334997b239a17a5bbb7b97&bu=43185918459&ut=RU&exe=98458&ext=232176&logid=nqt=AAAAAEAAIAAACAAAAAAAAAIAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAIAAAAAAAACAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQA**&nqc=AAAAAEAAIAAACAAAAAAAAAIAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAIAAAAAAAACAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQA**&mdbreftime=1621174694520&es=0&ec=1&osub=-1~1&crd=20210516072633&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,nqt=nqt,nqc=nqc,mdbreftime=mdbreftime,es=es,ec=ec,exe=exe,ext=ext,exe=exe,ext=ext,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid


Thank goodness for the “EXCELLANT” lettering and the ‘s s.....the Good Tubekeeping ‘Seal of Approval...


----------



## bcowen (May 16, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Thank goodness for the “EXCELLANT” lettering and the ‘s s.....the Good Tubekeeping ‘Seal of Approval...


LOL!  The telltale BangyBang apostrophe slaughter:   

(probably missed a few):


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> God doesn't have time for such trivial affairs as college sports.   Any time He has for sports is focused solely on doing everything possible to ensure that the Dallas Cowboys never return to the Superbowl.


Well at least that won't take much of His time.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The telltale BangyBang apostrophe slaughter:
> 
> (probably missed a few):


...and I will empty your wallet of it’s content’s...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well at least that won't take much of His time.


....the clouds parted and a Dark Voice [thread topic!] spoke loudly: “behold America’s team with whom I am greatly displeased...”


----------



## Ripper2860

Dont forget the extraneous "i" in tubecoins.  It should read 'tubecons'.  😏


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I had a bumper sticker with that on my car back in high school.  I think the sticker might have been worth more than the car.
> 
> And back in those days, NC State University was the main rival -- the Wolfpack.  Duke was a nobody in those days.  So I also had a bumper sticker with "The only _good_ Pack is a 6-Pack."


Duke's coach played for and was mentored by one Bob Knight, that made a huge difference.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hey!  Wait a minute!  I bought from Tubecoins a couple of years ago.  Bought a very nice, balanced and strong measuring Sylvania 6SN7W black-base tall bottle tube for $55.  We messaged back and forth a few times and the gentleman was quite nice and helpful.

Now I'm really confused.  Even more than usual.  🙁


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hey!  Wait a minute!  I bought from Tubecoins a couple of years ago.  Bought a very nice, balanced and strong measuring Sylvania 6SN7W black-base tall bottle tube for $55.  We messaged back and forth a few times and the gentleman was quite nice and helpful.
> 
> Now I'm really confused.  Even more than usual.  🙁


I think most of the fakes and relabels are sold through the (original) BangyBang site.  The Menifee Audio site (also his) seems to offer legit tubes, just priced at 5x the going market price.  Perhaps Tubecon is where he sells all the stuff that isn't worth the effort of relabeling or extortion?***     

***a perfect scenario for GE's. LOL!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Duke's coach played for and was mentored by one Bob Knight, that made a huge difference.


Did BK make any 3-point shots, net only, with a metal chair?...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think most of the fakes and relabels are sold through the (original) BangyBang site.  The Menifee Audio site (also his) seems to offer legit tubes, just priced at 5x the going market price.  Perhaps Tubecon is where he sells all the stuff that isn't worth the effort of relabeling or extortion?***
> 
> ***a perfect scenario for GE's. LOL!


If Tubecon is the BB discount outlet, prices are still 3.14159 times the going market quote..._pi_ in the sky...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If Tubecon is the BB discount outlet, prices are still 3.14159 times the going market quote...


At least that makes calculating the asking price as easy as pi.

(OK, this is _your_ territory, sorry )


----------



## Ripper2860

Just when I thought the level of intellect was going up in this thread, Bill went and posted that... 😒


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 16, 2021)

WTH?! (double post deleted)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Now I'm really confused.  Even more than usual.  🙁


Like this would be even theoretically possible.  I'll be right over to check on you as soon as I get the antimatter balance stabilized in my warp drive engine....


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 16, 2021)

Theory and reality ain't nessarily always the same.  😏

And you're confusing intellect with science fiction again. 😄


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Just when I thought the level of intellect was going up in this thread, Bill went and posted that... 😒


and took it higher 😜🤞...


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Now I'm really confused.  Even more than usual.  🙁


Tough to roll tubes when confusion is a _steady_ condition in which only the _severity_ changes...


----------



## Ripper2860

jonathan c said:


> and took it higher 😜🤞...


You must be the president and sole member of the 'Bill Cowen Fan Club'!   I hope Bill pays well.   😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> If I get this one back I may send it on an east coast tour.


IF 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping


And what was his impression ? 🙂 fishy I believe


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey this is for my wife lol, you want me to waste tubes on her? Probably class D, as if I am supposed to check. I ran wires and made it pretty, my work is done other than the custom shelf it will sit on.
> 
> Finnegan finally hit the wall and stole my chair for a catnap.
> 
> He followed me back inside for serious listening.


With all the help Fiinegan is doing, you may want to add a cat logo to the Incubus plate 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Sure looks blue on my laptop screen.  Besides, who would have a green chair?  Please don't tell me you still have Harvest Gold appliances in the kitchen....


That was the trendy color back in the 50s 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Wait you have a kitchen?  I generally just throw some animal parts on the grill at our fire pit. We had to sell our kitchen to pay for the pottery studio.   Besides which we have the fighting Irish.


🤣🤣🤣 seems you were only allowed to cut corners with the music system


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That's most definitely green, unlike your chair.  But fighting *that* would be the last thing on my mind, Irish or otherwise.


No fighting when it comes to clear cut choices regardless of color or nationality 😉😉


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Speaking of greenbacks, an old favourite villain is at it again: wege_high_tubes with a pair of Mullard re-branded GZ34 rectifier tubes...


Congrats on wining the lottery 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> You must be the president and sole member of the 'Bill Cowen Fan Club'!   I hope Bill pays well.   😄


I believe he uses cryptocurrency, good luck with that 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ...and I will empty your wallet of it’s content’s...


And you may also end up with a malfunctioning tube 😉


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe he uses cryptocurrency, good luck with that 😁


He does....even Bangybang accepts bitcowen....


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> And you may also end up with a malfunctioning tube 😉


As stated elsewhere, the vacuum will be in your wallet...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> He does....even Bangybang accepts bitcowen....


Bangybang would accept anything in return to what he’s delivering 😜


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> He does....even Bangybang accepts bitcowen....


LOL!  I like that!  Now we just need someone famous to spout about BitCowen (maybe get Bezos or Buffet or someone), buy a whole wad at $0.001, and then dump it all when it hits a dime.  If you'd put $10,000 into Dogecoin at $0.003 back in December, it'd be worth $1.7 million right now. Then you could go on a shopping spree at wege_high_tubes and get at least a decent quad of something.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I like that!  Now we just need someone famous to spout about BitCowen (maybe get Bezos or Buffet or someone), buy a whole wad at $0.001, and then dump it all when it hits a dime.  If you'd put $10,000 into Dogecoin at $0.003 back in December, it'd be worth $1.7 million right now. Then you could go on a shopping spree at wege_high_tubes and get at least a decent quad of something.


Or the other way around, put $1.7 million and end up with 10K of things went south 😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Or the other way around, put $1.7 million and end up with 10K of things went south 😜


That would only cover the shipping cost from wege_high_tubes.  Tube(s) not included.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That would only cover the shipping cost from wege_high_tubes.  Tube(s) not included.


Or a truck load of GE tubes 😊


----------



## DeweyCH

I'll xpost this from the Crack thread, since it applies to my DV as well...

Anyone have strong opinions on a 20k Alps Blue vs. a 50k Audio Note pot vs. a 20k eBay "DACT-style" stepped attenuator? I've got the attenuator in there (both) now, and it works fine, but I don't particularly know what to expect in differences... and it takes me so long to swap a pot out that I can't remember specifically what I heard from the last one.

I am somewhat inclined to put the Audio Note in my Crack and probably the Alps in my DV for the (stupid) reason that they're solid shaft whereas my attenuator is a split knurled shaft... I know that's a fairly stupid reason, but there are many stupid reasons, and this one is mine.


----------



## maketus

Dual 6SN7 6BL7 TO 6AS7 tube adapter For Elise amp  is this bad idea in dark voice


----------



## DeweyCH

maketus said:


> Dual 6SN7 6BL7 TO 6AS7 tube adapter For Elise amp  is this bad idea in dark voice


I'm confused by the description... does it turn a 6AS7 socket into two 6SN7 tubes? I think this might not be a great idea in the DV... the 6AS7/6080/5998 power tube does its job quite well. If you want to adapt it, I'd recommend tracking down a 6AS7 to dual A2293 adapter.

Incidentally, I _think_ the reason that eBay listing says "doesn't work with Darkvoice" is because the adapter itself won't reach all the way down to the DV's 6AS7 socket without adding a tube saver. DV's sockets being recessed as they are means that a lot of the adapters sold on eBay won't actually work with it. Electrically they're fine, they just aren't long enough. A tube saver mitigates this issue... as does buying your adapters from @Deyan


----------



## maketus

https://ebay.to/3or284E


----------



## DeweyCH

maketus said:


> https://ebay.to/3or284E


Yeah, I'm fairly certain the seller's warning is because the form factor won't actually let you plug this into the Darkvoice without another adapter (tube saver).


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> With all the help Fiinegan is doing, you may want to add a cat logo to the Incubus plate 😃


That's a really good idea. Maybe even change the branding to Finnegan by Incubus.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> it shipped yesterday lol, along with that grey glass and a black glass Tung Sol. I do like the looks of this one but I hope to make the next one even prettier.


Any perceivable differences in sound between the two?


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> That's a really good idea. Maybe even change the branding to Finnegan by Incubus.


Yeah we should vote it, am sure @bcowen is on board 😜
What about @Paladin79  he seems missing online  probably on another tube harvesting spree 😜


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> That's a really good idea. Maybe even change the branding to Finnegan by Incubus.


Idea 1:  Finnegancubus
Idea 2:  Felinecubus


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Any perceivable differences in sound between the two?


I like the black glass a bit better, it covers the sound spectrum better than the grey glass IMHO.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 19, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Yeah we should vote it, am sure @bcowen is on board 😜
> What about @Paladin79  he seems missing online  probably on another tube harvesting spree 😜


I get busy sorry and I am in a bunch of threads. Lately I built my wife a shelf for her music system out of tiger maple and some scrap lumber. I could not see using top quality wood for a shelf so I just trimmed in tiger maple. I also worked on getting a loaner amp to a lady in Vermont, that should arrive there today then after a couple weeks it will go to California to other people I know. 

As far as tube buying, I only buy specific Melz tubes right now if they are not in my collection, I did send a GE 5998A with the loaner Incubus so I can get a few more opinions.


Oh yeah I was also making a shelf\apron rack for my wife’s music system in her pottery studio.


----------



## DeweyCH

DeweyCH said:


> I'll xpost this from the Crack thread, since it applies to my DV as well...
> 
> Anyone have strong opinions on a 20k Alps Blue vs. a 50k Audio Note pot vs. a 20k eBay "DACT-style" stepped attenuator? I've got the attenuator in there (both) now, and it works fine, but I don't particularly know what to expect in differences... and it takes me so long to swap a pot out that I can't remember specifically what I heard from the last one.
> 
> I am somewhat inclined to put the Audio Note in my Crack and probably the Alps in my DV for the (stupid) reason that they're solid shaft whereas my attenuator is a split knurled shaft... I know that's a fairly stupid reason, but there are many stupid reasons, and this one is mine.


FWIW I put the Audio Note into the Crack and it sounds better than the attenuator. It's actually 100k, not 50k. I _think _it sounds better than the Alps, but I didn't really have any specific complaints about the Alps, so... hard to say.

I'll probably plop the 20k Alps I have on hand into the DV in place of that attenuator. See what the main difference is. Eventually.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I get busy sorry and I am in a bunch of threads. Lately I built my wife a shelf for her music system out of tiger maple and some scrap lumber. I could not see using top quality wood for a shelf so I just trimmed in tiger maple. I also worked on getting a loaner amp to a lady in Vermont, that should arrive there today then after a couple weeks it will go to California to other people I know.
> 
> As far as tube buying, I only buy specific Melz tubes right now if they are not in my collection, I did send a GE 5998A with the loaner Incubus so I can get a few more opinions.
> 
> ...


Looks gorgeous on the shelf, although the power cable is hanging down to the outlet 😜 which should have been planned behind it 😀


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Looks gorgeous on the shelf, although the power cable is hanging down to the outlet 😜 which should have been planned behind it 😀


Nope that is a portable music system and we need to be able to move it to other  locations easily.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Nope that is a portable music system and we need to be able to move it to other  locations easily.


Ok 😊😊😊


----------



## JKDJedi

*Sylvania 7a4 *


----------



## Galapac

Cool shot!


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> *Sylvania 7a4 *


Er... did you recess a 6SN7 --> dual 6J5 adapter into your case? Because that looks really awesome, like there's no adapter, just... that's the way it is.


----------



## DeweyCH

Also, @JKDJedi, can you tell me what you think of those Sylvanias? They look slick - love the metal base. Is the 7A4 basically the same as a 6J5? How would they compare to, say, some Visseaux 6J5MGs, or a pair of Super Silvertone 6L5s?


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, I need a bit of tube advice... and it's really around a specific sound in a specific song.

So, in "All You Need is Love," in the very beginning of the song there's a bass instrument of some sort. I think it's a bass harmonica, maybe? And it just hits a note, then drops as deep as it can go (this is right before the lyrics kick in).

This is, to me, an amazing little moment, and when I listen on my Liquid Platinum, I can hear that deep drop. But on my two OTL amps - DV and Crack - it's like it hits the top part of the note and then just disappears.

Same headphones, and I've tried with different power tubes (TS 5998, dual A2293s, RCA 6AS7) and pre tubes (RCA 12AU7, dual Visseaux 6J5MG, dual Super Silvertone 6L5s, and just now a Sylvania metal-base 6SN7). Any recommendations? Typically I get very nice bass out of both these amps, but I just kinda hunger for that low, super-textured note, like a richer version of a cello hitting super low.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Also, @JKDJedi, can you tell me what you think of those Sylvanias? They look slick - love the metal base. Is the 7A4 basically the same as a 6J5? How would they compare to, say, some Visseaux 6J5MGs, or a pair of Super Silvertone 6L5s?


They are the loctal versions of the 6J5 and inexpensive to grab. Warmer than then the Silvertones from memory.. ( I almost grabbed the Silvertones last night to compare but the Laker game was on..) my first reaction last night with these ( paired with the 5998) was Dat punchy Bass! They share the same headroom extension of the 6j5. You'll spend more in the adapter.


----------



## jonathan c

Not strictly DV-related but this is the nicest tube packaging, from a seller, that I have encountered (Telefunken ECC801S):


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> OK, I need a bit of tube advice... and it's really around a specific sound in a specific song.
> 
> So, in "All You Need is Love," in the very beginning of the song there's a bass instrument of some sort. I think it's a bass harmonica, maybe? And it just hits a note, then drops as deep as it can go (this is right before the lyrics kick in).
> 
> ...


Your hearing the difference in speed between the amps, no way OTL amp can deliver it as fast,


----------



## DeweyCH (May 20, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Your hearing the difference in speed between the amps, no way OTL amp can deliver it as fast,


Gotcha. Shame. I mostly love the synergy between ZMF headphones and OTL amps. But the LP really does seem to outshine both my OTLs in a lot of ways.

EDIT: And one way is, it works. Stupid Darkvoice suddenly stopped sending power to the 6AS7 socket. Gonna have to investigate.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> OK, I need a bit of tube advice... and it's really around a specific sound in a specific song.
> 
> So, in "All You Need is Love," in the very beginning of the song there's a bass instrument of some sort. I think it's a bass harmonica, maybe? And it just hits a note, then drops as deep as it can go (this is right before the lyrics kick in).
> 
> ...


The 5998 and 2293 generally won’t give you that deep bass. I recommend purchasing a 6080 with graphite plates, preferably the variety with slots. I think it suits rock very well but many types of music.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> The 5998 and 2293 generally won’t give you that deep bass. I recommend purchasing a 6080 with graphite plates, preferably the variety with slots. I think it suits rock very well but many types of music.


Hmm... I have a Mullard 6080 here. With graphite plates, I think. I'll try it as soon as the 5998 cools off.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Your hearing the difference in speed between the amps, no way OTL amp can deliver it as fast,


It's a lovely warm day here, sky is blue, birds are flying around, cicadas are doing whatever cicadas do.  I best stay out of this one lol, have a great day all.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> It's a lovely warm day here, sky is blue, birds are flying around, cicadas are doing whatever cicadas do.  I best stay out of this one lol, have a great day all.


No no, I want your take on this.


----------



## DeweyCH

OK, the Mullard makes a difference. Seems noticeably cleaner/clearer and I can (just barely, but that's a big step up) hear the bottom of that bass harmonica drop.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It's a lovely warm day here, sky is blue, birds are flying around, cicadas are doing whatever cicadas do.  I best stay out of this one lol, have a great day all.


DeweyCH’s inquiry sounds like an assignment for anti-shenanigan Finnegan...


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> OK, the Mullard makes a difference. Seems noticeably cleaner/clearer and I can (just barely, but that's a big step up) hear the bottom of that bass harmonica drop.


Can I see the Mullard?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Can I see the Mullard?


I was gonna ask the same ..


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Can I see the Mullard?


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> DeweyCH’s inquiry sounds like an assignment for anti-shenanigan Finnegan...


I can always use the assistance of a kitty. Mine died right before the pandemic started. I'm all for borrowing other people's to get my fix.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


>


I think @therremans meant a Bendix or related tube


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


>


The graphite plates look like this one.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I can always use the assistance of a kitty. Mine died right before the pandemic started. I'm all for borrowing other people's to get my fix.


Or maybe try the Tung Sol 7236.


----------



## DeweyCH

These _look_ like they are graphite, but I defer to y'all.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> These _look_ like they are graphite, but I defer to y'all.


No, these are not graphite.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Or maybe try the Tung Sol 7236.


Are they fuzzy?


----------



## JKDJedi

I'm wishing I had a fat joint right now ... That kind of day! Computer here at work is dragging and I've only had two cups of coffee 😒


----------



## DeweyCH

Would something like this be a reasonable deal that will provide the depth and timbre of bass I'm after?


----------



## therremans

Also, here is the solid plate version. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHATHAM-JA...-/373578994291?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Are they fuzzy?


LoL... If they are get the trimmers out. No not sure what you mean here.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> I'm wishing I had a fat joint right now ... That kind of day! Computer here at work is dragging and I've only had two cups of coffee 😒


I never understood people who can blaze and work. My first CEO after grad school would take a massive bong rip every afternoon and then be hyper-productive the rest of the day.

Just puts me to sleep and makes me hungry.


----------



## therremans (May 20, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> Would something like this be a reasonable deal that will provide the depth and timbre of bass I'm after?


Not exactly. The 7236 is actually more lean than the 5998. Try the graphite plates one I linked. It’s a fair price at around $75. If you enjoy it, try to find the bendix slotted plates.

edit: also, 7236 can be found for less. I paid $35 for mine and I’ve recently seen them go for around $40-$50, especially in bid auctions. However I would pass on this tube if you already own a 5998. If you’re like me, it doesn’t get much use. It can sound nice with some combos so I do think it’s worth owning but I would pay around $50.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> Would something like this be a reasonable deal that will provide the depth and timbre of bass I'm after?


Worth a grab.


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> LoL... If they are get the trimmers out. No not sure what you mean here.


You quoted me talking about needing a kitty.


----------



## therremans (May 20, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> I never understood people who can blaze and work. My first CEO after grad school would take a massive bong rip every afternoon and then be hyper-productive the rest of the day.
> 
> Just puts me to sleep and makes me hungry.


I get a little sleepy but mostly just become hyper aware that this is all for nothing and we will all die soon.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I never understood people who can blaze and work. My first CEO after grad school would take a massive bong rip every afternoon and then be hyper-productive the rest of the day.
> 
> Just puts me to sleep and makes me hungry.


Depends which type you use. I use to blaze daily but that was many moons ago. I'd probably be the same as you described, a vegetable. 😂


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I get a little sleepy but mostly just become hyper aware than all this is for nothing and we will all die soon.


I'm 40 and didn't start smoking until a couple of years ago, so maybe I'm just not totally used to it. It is however the best sleep aid I've ever found, and there's little more amazing than getting really good and high and listening to high-end head-fi blow your mind and your ears right out your butt.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I get a little sleepy but mostly just become hyper aware than all this is for nothing and we will all die soon.


I have some Pineapple Express (seeds) coming in, hoping to harvest a huge batch. #hoping


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Also, here is the solid plate version.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHATHAM-JA...-/373578994291?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


Popped it on my watchlist. I'll re-check it in seven hours or so.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I'm 40 and didn't start smoking until a couple of years ago, so maybe I'm just not totally used to it. It is however the best sleep aid I've ever found, and there's little more amazing than getting really good and high and listening to high-end head-fi blow your mind and your ears right out your butt.


Yeah I agree.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> I'm 40 and didn't start smoking until a couple of years ago, so maybe I'm just not totally used to it. It is however the best sleep aid I've ever found, and there's little more amazing than getting really good and high and listening to high-end head-fi blow your mind and your ears right out your butt.


This... 😎


----------



## DeweyCH

Any reason to wait on the Chatham rather than grab another 6080WB on buy it now? There's a NOS Raytheon for $79 with free shipping. Also a Tung-Sol from the same seller but that one is listed as used and doesn't have any test numbers.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Any reason to wait on the Chatham rather than grab another 6080WB on buy it now? There's a NOS Raytheon for $79 with free shipping. Also a Tung-Sol from the same seller but that one is listed as used and doesn't have any test numbers.


Careful, the Raytheon and the TS you speak of don’t have graphite plates.

here is one that is BIN https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...-/324633135980?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286 . Supposed to be NOS


----------



## therremans

Graphite plates:, note: slotted graphite plates just have a long hole in them.





Metal plates:


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Careful, the Raytheon and the TS you speak of don’t have graphite plates.
> 
> here is one that is BIN https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...-/324633135980?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286 . Supposed to be NOS


They fooled me by coming up on a search for "6080 tube graphite."

Thanks.


----------



## therremans

Inspect the graphite plated tube when it arrives. If it has suffered a hard drop, the ceramic mica could be cracked. Some sellers don’t notice this. It’s supposed to be a very robust and long life tube. It just takes a good 5 minutes before it warms up and is in its zone after a good 20 minutes.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Careful, the Raytheon and the TS you speak of don’t have graphite plates.
> 
> here is one that is BIN https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...-/324633135980?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286 . Supposed to be NOS


Oh man ... Noooooo get the candy away from me ... Chewy buy it quick before I do!!


----------



## DeweyCH

JKDJedi said:


> Oh man ... Noooooo get the candy away from me ... Chewy buy it quick before I do!!


How did you know I'm a Wookiee?

Also yeah ok I ordered it.


----------



## JKDJedi

DeweyCH said:


> How did you know I'm a Wookiee?
> 
> Also yeah ok I ordered it.


😂😂😂


----------



## therremans

The amp got an upgrade, a cat deflection shield. Residing inside is the Bendix and another favorite, GE 5692.


----------



## DeweyCH (May 20, 2021)

Hoo boy, the DV is dead. Seems like there's no power coming along the heater rails - neither tube heats or lights up anymore. I'm confused a bit b/c it has been sitting, mostly unused, for a couple of weeks, and it worked just fine before.

Anyone mind pointing me at some good steps to trace the issue? Thanks in advance...

Edit for a little extra clarity: the power LED comes on, and the last thing I played around with was just the knob for the pot.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> and there's little more amazing than getting really good and high and listening to high-end head-fi blow your mind and your ears right out your butt.


So I am not the only one that sees those 2 activites go great together, eyes closed of course.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

My understanding is that graphite plates are actually machined from solid graphite; the black plates in other tubes are made of metal that has carbonised coating.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hey, what happened to the "Like" button? How else am I supposed to encourage bad behaviour?


----------



## DeweyCH

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, what happened to the "Like" button? How else am I supposed to encourage bad behaviour?


Pay like everyone else. Atlantic City exists for a reason


----------



## Mr Trev

DeweyCH said:


> Pay like everyone else. Atlantic City exists for a reason


But I did! I gave a paper bag full of Bitcoin to some guy named Jimmy in the back alley!


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, what happened to the "Like" button? How else am I supposed to encourage bad behaviour?


We were all too lazy to touch the button...


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Hoo boy, the DV is dead. Seems like there's no power coming along the heater rails - neither tube heats or lights up anymore. I'm confused a bit b/c it has been sitting, mostly unused, for a couple of weeks, and it worked just fine before.
> 
> Anyone mind pointing me at some good steps to trace the issue? Thanks in advance...
> 
> Edit for a little extra clarity: the power LED comes on, and the last thing I played around with was just the knob for the pot.


The town crier announces: “the DarkVoice is dead, long live the DarkVoice”...


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> *Sylvania 7a4 *


Without an adapter, makes me wonder which amp 🤨🤨


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Not strictly DV-related but this is the nicest tube packaging, from a seller, that I have encountered (Telefunken ECC801S):


The tubes inside should be expensive to be hard box protected 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> The amp got an upgrade, a cat deflection shield. Residing inside is the Bendix and another favorite, GE 5692.


What's the thing with cats and tubes 😂
Probably I should switch my dog with a cat to go along with all members here 😂😂


----------



## Paladin79 (May 21, 2021)

DeweyCH said:


> No no, I want your take on this.


At some point I will listen to the song and check out the frequencies involved. In the meantime, do you have one of the GE 5998A's?  I may do some testing with one of those later and see what I come up with. Bass and mids on that power tube may give you what you are looking for. I even have class A solid state devices I can check out over the weekend but seriously my Class A OTL Incubus should handle this. The 5998A would also add more gain.  

Also are you listening to the remastered version of All you need is Love?

With what I can gather you are listening to Paul McCartney using a bow on a double bass.  Here are some examples:





The line-up was Lennon on harpsichord, McCartney on double bass with a bow, Harrison on violin – three *instruments* that were unfamiliar to the *musicians* – while Starr *played* drums.

Now the examples I gave may help you comparing amps. If you are using a stock DV and Crack that could well be a factor. My BH Crack is highly modded and I am not sure I can get passed the hum using a DV to tell much, I have not modded mine yet.

https://www.cmuse.org/the-lowest-sounding-instrument-in-the-orchestra/


----------



## jonathan c

This will certainly offset not getting a tax refund in the mail...


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> We were all too lazy to touch the button...


Not that, on my end the button didn't even exist. Oddly, this was the only thread this was happening on. I was starting to think that the mods got tired of you guy's  wonderfully off-topic banter and got rid of it.

Finally brained it out, Brave being a PITA again. This year has so far been an epic battle of wills between me and technology. I swear before its over I'm going to beat my smartphone to death with my laptop.

Banter on!


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Not that, on my end the button didn't even exist. Oddly, this was the only thread this was happening on. I was starting to think that the mods got tired of you guy's  wonderfully off-topic banter and got rid of it.
> 
> Finally brained it out, Brave being a PITA again. This year has so far been an epic battle of wills between me and technology. I swear before its over I'm going to beat my smartphone to death with my laptop.
> 
> Banter on!


If worse comes to worse, have the smart(arse) phone calculate pi or divide anything by zero...(a la episodes of “Star Trek” and “The Prisoner”)...


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> Not that, on my end the button didn't even exist.


Disable your ad blocker and look again.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Disable your ad blocker and look again.


It already was. Go figure…

Browser issues. I've had enitre websites decide to show up as nothing but unformatted text. I probably should disable updates now that it seem to be working properly for a change.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

jonathan c said:


> This will certainly offset not getting a tax refund in the mail...



I am a bit surprised GEC did not use copper heat-dissipation rods. A nice specimen by the way!


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> It already was. Go figure…
> 
> Browser issues. I've had enitre websites decide to show up as nothing but unformatted text. I probably should disable updates now that it seem to be working properly for a change.


Are you sure that DarkVoice (Yuking Audio-Video) didn’t make your smartphone?


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Without an adapter, makes me wonder which amp 🤨🤨


They're sitting on an adapter.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> This will certainly offset not getting a tax refund in the mail...


Is that a new 6080 production ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> They're sitting on an adapter.


OK, was not showing though, so it's a DV 😃


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Is that a new 6080 production ?


It is NOS....I did not think that GEC ‘new production’ existed.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Are you sure that DarkVoice (Yuking Audio-Video) didn’t make your smartphone?


Considering how badly Lenovo butchered the Motorola brand, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some coaching from DV


----------



## therremans (May 21, 2021)

*Melz 1959*, tests strong and used at around 3300/3300 (3600). No shorts, no hum or noise issues, it is silent. I will likely reflow the solder anyways and perhaps just replace it in time. Does anyone have any info on doing that? (  I'm only kidding).

My initial impressions paired with the Bendix 6080, is that it’s a slow and mellow tube with an emphasis on the mid range. Which is nice to have in the tube collection but it is sounding a bit flat (or sinking in quicksand) at times. Not a particularly nice combination going on. I think the Brimar 6SN7GT (which I consider a mellow tube) sounds substantially more transparent. The high end on the Melz seems to get lost. To compare it with the 53' Foton, that tube shines with the Bendix 6080.

Paired with the Tung-Sol 5998, it helps by brining in more energy to the music. The mid range is still thick with a great low end. Yet, I am not sure why it is sounding so flat to me, in regards to the soundstage as well. Unfortunately I do not have another example or year to compare it with.

It is possible it could just need to be played in and its actually NOS. I have owned NOS tubes that sounded similar to this and then dramatically opened up on the high end after a solid day of use. The Tung Sol 6J5GT come to mind. I didn't think solder would effect sound signature but I will listen again after I reflow.

I will keep you updated if it changes.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> *Melz 1959*, tests strong and used at around 3300/3300 (3600). No shorts, no hum or noise issues, it is silent. I will likely reflow the solder anyways and perhaps just replace it in time. Does anyone have any info on doing that? (  I'm only kidding).
> 
> My initial impressions paired with the Bendix 6080, is that it’s a slow and mellow tube with an emphasis on the mid range. Which is nice to have in the tube collection but it is sounding a bit flat (or sinking in quicksand) at times. Not a particularly nice combination going on. I think the Brimar 6SN7GT (which I consider a mellow tube) sounds substantially more transparent. The high end on the Melz seems to get lost. To compare it with the 53' Foton, that tube shines with the Bendix 6080.
> 
> ...


The reflow and some use will open these guys up. 59' ... nice find!


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> *Melz 1959*, tests strong and used at around 3300/3300 (3600). No shorts, no hum or noise issues, it is silent. I will likely reflow the solder anyways and perhaps just replace it in time. Does anyone have any info on doing that? (  I'm only kidding).
> 
> My initial impressions paired with the Bendix 6080, is that it’s a slow and mellow tube with an emphasis on the mid range. Which is nice to have in the tube collection but it is sounding a bit flat (or sinking in quicksand) at times. Not a particularly nice combination going on. I think the Brimar 6SN7GT (which I consider a mellow tube) sounds substantially more transparent. The high end on the Melz seems to get lost. To compare it with the 53' Foton, that tube shines with the Bendix 6080.
> 
> ...


Your impressions of the 59 are nothing like my own but I run them in my own amps.😎


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I have owned NOS tubes that sounded similar to this and then dramatically opened up on the high end after a solid day of use.


You're lucky if they opened up like that just after a single day of use.   I've used various other Russian tubes (reflector, voskhod, novo, etc.) and they required significant burn in (days of use) but the sound does change and open up over time.


----------



## jonathan c (May 21, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> You're lucky if they opened up like that just after a single day of use.   I've used various other Russian tubes (reflector, voskhod, novo, etc.) and they required significant burn in (days of use) but the sound does change and open up over time.


Sometimes the Russian tubes “open up” with the assistance of Russian libations 🤪...besides, it takes them a while to warm up after the Cold War...


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Your impressions of the 59 are nothing like my own but I run them in my own amps.😎


Speaking of your own amps… when are you going to make your DV "your own"?
I don't mean to call you a slacker or anything, but I will!
C'mon, snap to it. Satisify the morbid curiousity of us rubber neckers.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of your own amps… when are you going to make your DV "your own"?
> I don't mean to call you a slacker or anything, but I will!
> C'mon, snap to it. Satisify the morbid curiousity of us rubber neckers.


...a/k/a goober tubers (?)...


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of your own amps… when are you going to make your DV "your own"?
> I don't mean to call you a slacker or anything, but I will!
> C'mon, snap to it. Satisify the morbid curiousity of us rubber neckers.


It is still pretty far down my list of things to do lol. I even let @bcowen work on my tube tester cause I could not get around to it. I built a shelf and need to make some tables soon.


----------



## Mr Trev

OK. But I have to warn you, as time drags on I'll probably have to challenge you to build it for increasingly silly purposes. Like make it the first OTL amp dedicated to driving only IEMs


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Sometimes the Russian tubes “open up” with the assistance of Russian libations 🤪


Also known as Yeltsining.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> OK. But I have to warn you, as time drags on I'll probably have to challenge you to build it for increasingly silly purposes. Like make it the first OTL amp dedicated to driving only IEMs


Lol that will not happen.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It is NOS....I did not think that GEC ‘new production’ existed.


I don't know of _any_ Russian or Chinese manufacturer that is currently making 6080's.  I could be wrong....just haven't seen any.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> You're lucky if they opened up like that just after a single day of use.   I've used various other Russian tubes (reflector, voskhod, novo, etc.) and they required significant burn in (days of use) but the sound does change and open up over time.


My experience is quite similar.  I have yet to hear a NOS Russian-made tube that didn't need 20+ hours of break-in to get fully into its groove.  Resoldering the pins makes it 20 hours instead of 100+ hours (as @Paladin79 gave us some learnin' with the Fotons ).  I don't have much experience with the new production tubes coming out of Russia so don't know if they are the same.


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> This will certainly offset not getting a tax refund in the mail...


That is one hell of a specimen you have there.
The boxes look off to me or it’s the lighting, maybe reprints?

Here is a pic of my set.


----------



## therremans

I added a little flux to the pin tips and reheated. It flowed pretty nice and I now have shiny ends. Currently it is powered on the DV and I will leave it on for awhile, haven't gave it a listen yet. Hopeful to hear a difference over the weekend.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My experience is quite similar.  I have yet to hear a NOS Russian-made tube that didn't need 20+ hours of break-in to get fully into its groove.  Resoldering the pins makes it 20 hours instead of 100+ hours (as @Paladin79 gave us some learnin' with the Fotons ).  I don't have much experience with the new production tubes coming out of Russia so don't know if they are the same.


I can tell a lot with new tubes and first listen but I use a different set of indicators, music specifically recorded to show the whole audio spectrum of a tube. Most often I have already done a thorough solder replacement inside the Melz or Foton pins before I do any serious listening. I only use the DV for burn in, not for listening since mine is not modified and the Russian tubes have an extreme hum compared to other brands and I am more into Melz tubes right now than most other brands. Fotons may not make the cut of 52 in my blind tube experiments but for Melz from 1956-1963 it becomes a matter of which one to use since the sound has been deemed towards the top of all tubes tested by eight of us doing preliminary tests. If there is a 6sn7 or equivalent out there I have not heard, I am not sure what it would be. As far as Melz, if there is a 1957 solid plate 1578 equivalent out there, I do not own it yet, those tubes are extremely hard to find and I search a few times a week.

 I rarely burn tubes in for more than ten hours and most oftentimes less but I am using an amp designed to show off 6sn7 sound and Focal Utopias. I will be trying some ZMF Verites soon but otherwise all headphones I own do not give me the high frequency range I need to really hear a tube. HD800's are great but I do not own a pair at this time. 

 Now if anyone tried a 1959 Melz and still is not happy with it after their own burn in, or with their amp and headphones, PM me and I will make an offer based on what I pay my suppliers.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of your own amps… when are you going to make your DV "your own"?
> I don't mean to call you a slacker or anything, but I will!
> C'mon, snap to it. Satisify the morbid curiousity of us rubber neckers.


Waiting for that modification as well 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol that will not happen.


Driving Focal cans with authority will do 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> It is NOS....I did not think that GEC ‘new production’ existed.


looked so new to be a NOS including the boxes 😃😃


----------



## JKDJedi (May 22, 2021)

Galapac said:


> That is one hell of a specimen you have there.
> The boxes look off to me or it’s the lighting, maybe reprints?
> 
> Here is a pic of my set.


Could be a different year, what's the date on the two? @jonathan c & @Galapac  Please share the dates on those nice specimens.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I can tell a lot with new tubes and first listen but I use a different set of indicators, music specifically recorded to show the whole audio spectrum of a tube. Most often I have already done a thorough solder replacement inside the Melz or Foton pins before I do any serious listening. I only use the DV for burn in, not for listening since mine is not modified and the Russian tubes have an extreme hum compared to other brands and I am more into Melz tubes right now than most other brands. Fotons may not make the cut of 52 in my blind tube experiments but for Melz from 1956-1963 it becomes a matter of which one to use since the sound has been deemed towards the top of all tubes tested by eight of us doing preliminary tests. If there is a 6sn7 or equivalent out there I have not heard, I am not sure what it would be. As far as Melz, if there is a 1957 solid plate 1578 equivalent out there, I do not own it yet, those tubes are extremely hard to find and I search a few times a week.
> 
> I rarely burn tubes in for more than ten hours and most oftentimes less but I am using an amp designed to show off 6sn7 sound and Focal Utopias. I will be trying some ZMF Verites soon but otherwise all headphones I own do not give me the high frequency range I need to really hear a tube. HD800's are great but I do not own a pair at this time.
> 
> Now if anyone tried a 1959 Melz and still is not happy with it after their own burn in, or with their amp and headphones, PM me and I will make an offer based on what I pay my suppliers.


ZMF Verites...  O.O Nice....


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I added a little flux to the pin tips and reheated. It flowed pretty nice and I now have shiny ends. Currently it is powered on the DV and I will leave it on for awhile, haven't gave it a listen yet. Hopeful to hear a difference over the weekend.


Send that one to me for a bit, I'd like to compare it to the 63'


----------



## JKDJedi

Here's an interesting post... And they just show the top micas... Raytheon or not? 🤔
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-U-S-Na...-/114811143476?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Here's an interesting post... And they just show the top micas... Raytheon or not? 🤔
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-U-S-Na...-/114811143476?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


I inquired about this pair as the mica doesn’t match Raytheon’s. The seller sent me back these photos, which don’t match up with the round mica in the photo.. sure enough are Raytheons. So it seems they made an error, I un-watched the listing.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Lol that will not happen.


What, don't have a big enough pair of "tubes" to tackle it


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I inquired about this pair as the mica doesn’t match Raytheon’s. The seller sent me back these photos, which don’t match up with the round mica in the photo.. sure enough are Raytheons. So it seems they made an error, I un-watched the listing.


He has a couple of these out there, the round mica pair are interesting.


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (May 22, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Here's an interesting post... And they just show the top micas... Raytheon or not? 🤔
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-U-S-Na...-/114811143476?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286



Plates are staggered and there are two support mica pieces on top sides - might be some early RCA?


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> That is one hell of a specimen you have there.
> The boxes look off to me or it’s the lighting, maybe reprints?
> 
> Here is a pic of my set.


Those are very nice. In the photo that I sent it is the lighting...another set of pix:


----------



## tubebuyer2020

When tubes are stored properly and without movement, apart from old paper smell, they can easily look like they were made yesterday - including the box.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> What, don't have a big enough pair of "tubes" to tackle it


I do not do much with IEM's and most may well be 32 ohms like Beats or some such.

Now if you do not think I have a big enough pair to complete the DV Mod that is a different matter. This weekend is nearly gone but I would be happy to wager $1,000 Canadian that I can do my mods over any weekend you choose, cabinet and all.  @bcowen could hold the stakes, he knows my money will be there. I would leave enough DV parts so it is obvious I modded one of those amps and I would let Mr. Cowen or @sam6550a see the inside of the amp so they would know I did a full mod.

Sound good or did your "tubes" just shrivel up??


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I do not do much with IEM's and most may well be 32 ohms like Beats or some such.
> 
> Now if you do not think I have a big enough pair to complete the DV Mod that is a different matter. This weekend is nearly gone but I would be happy to wager $1,000 Canadian that I can do my mods over any weekend you choose, cabinet and all.  @bcowen could hold the stakes, he knows my money will be there. I would leave enough DV parts so it is obvious I modded one of those amps and I would let Mr. Cowen or @sam6550a see the inside of the amp so they would know I did a full mod.
> 
> Sound good or did your "tubes" just shrivel up??


No, I was thinking the IEM part.

I've read enough about your Fi-fu not to stupidly take that bet. - besides $1000 CAD is only like $50 USD so there's no risk on your part


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Those are very nice. In the photo that I sent it is the lighting...another set of pix:


Nice! You have the inside wrap as well. These are some nice tubes we have, lol. Not sure of the dates on mine but interesting that yours say 6080/CV2984 whereas mine say 6080WA. Mine came from a seller in New Zealand who had some great tubes for sale. It may be where they originated from or different times of manufacture. Enjoy them!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do not do much with IEM's and most may well be 32 ohms like Beats or some such.
> 
> Now if you do not think I have a big enough pair to complete the DV Mod that is a different matter. This weekend is nearly gone but I would be happy to wager $1,000 Canadian that I can do my mods over any weekend you choose, cabinet and all.  @bcowen could hold the stakes, he knows my money will be there. I would leave enough DV parts so it is obvious I modded one of those amps and I would let Mr. Cowen or @sam6550a see the inside of the amp so they would know I did a full mod.
> 
> Sound good or did your "tubes" just shrivel up??


I'd happily volunteer to hold onto the money.  Now relinquishing it?  That's another discussion entirely (service fees, handling fees, labor cost, etc.).


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> No, I was thinking the IEM part.
> 
> I've read enough about your Fi-fu not to stupidly take that bet. - besides $1000 CAD is only like $50 USD so there's no risk on your part


Are there high impedance IEM's?  50 ohms or higher I could handle pretty easily.

$828 US or so exchange rate.

Ok so we can do Krugerrands if that helps.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'd happily volunteer to hold onto the money.  Now relinquishing it?  That's another discussion entirely (service fees, handling fees, labor cost, etc.).


I will send Finnegan to collect if need be.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Are there high impedance IEM's?  50 ohms or higher I could handle pretty easily.
> 
> $828 US or so exchange rate.
> 
> Ok so we can do Krugerrands if that helps.


Bitcoin!


----------



## Mr Trev (May 22, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Are there high impedance IEM's?  50 ohms or higher I could handle pretty easily.
> 
> $828 US or so exchange rate.
> 
> Ok so we can do Krugerrands if that helps.


Venture Electronics Zen 2.0: 320Ω earbuds - https://www.veclan.com/engappliance_sel_one?eng_ApplianceVo.eac_id=3
My Dunu SA6 are 60Ω @ 1KHZ, but they're multi-BA, so I'd imagine that'd complicate things.
I'm pretty sure there are others.

Actually, the Canadian Peso has been on a bit of a run the past month - highest level since 2016 or something.

The bet would have to have some serious risk for you if you lost. Something like all your future amps will be tuned to the dulcet sounds of Marilyn Manson


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Venture Electronics Zen 2.0: 320Ω earbuds - https://www.veclan.com/engappliance_sel_one?eng_ApplianceVo.eac_id=3
> My Dunu SA6 are 60Ω @ 1KHZ, but they're multi-BA, so I'd imagine that'd complicate things.
> I'm pretty sure there are others.
> 
> ...


Wait isn’t Manson in jail or about to be? 

I may own a half dozen IEM’s but they are too easy for Finnegan to run off with and finding them is not easy.


----------



## DeweyCH

Well hello


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Wait isn’t Manson in jail or about to be?
> 
> I may own a half dozen IEM’s but they are too easy for Finnegan to run off with and finding them is not easy





DeweyCH said:


> Well hello


What!?....wow...that was fast!


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Well hello


Sweet!  Given it a listen yet?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will send Finnegan to collect if need be.


Finnegan would have to deal with my ferocious watchcat.   

(much easier to just pass out by the food bowl than have to waddle over to it again when she wakes up)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I do not do much with IEM's and most may well be 32 ohms like Beats or some such.
> 
> Now if you do not think I have a big enough pair to complete the DV Mod that is a different matter. This weekend is nearly gone but I would be happy to wager $1,000 Canadian that I can do my mods over any weekend you choose, cabinet and all.  @bcowen could hold the stakes, he knows my money will be there. I would leave enough DV parts so it is obvious I modded one of those amps and I would let Mr. Cowen or @sam6550a see the inside of the amp so they would know I did a full mod.
> 
> Sound good or did your "tubes" just shrivel up??


"Sound good or did your "*pair*" just shrivel up?"
Corrected 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'd happily volunteer to hold onto the money.  Now relinquishing it?  That's another discussion entirely (service fees, handling fees, labor cost, etc.).


@bcowen should receive both party's Payment in Canadian dollars, relinquishing in USD is per @Mr Trev exchange rate  and off course minus the listed fees 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will send Finnegan to collect if need be.


@bcowen should know how to handle a @#$% 🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Finnegan would have to deal with my ferocious watchcat.
> 
> (much easier to just pass out by the food bowl than have to waddle over to it again when she wakes up)


Damn stop feeding that cat with a bucket of food lol.😺😺😺


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> "Sound good or did your "*pair*" just shrivel up?"
> Corrected





HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen should know how to handle a @#$% 🤣🤣


Feeding the beast as we speak....


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Wait isn’t Manson in jail or about to be?
> 
> I may own a half dozen IEM’s but they are too easy for Finnegan to run off with and finding them is not easy.


Yeah that.......


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Finnegan would have to deal with my ferocious watchcat.
> 
> (much easier to just pass out by the food bowl than have to waddle over to it again when she wakes up)


Ferocious enough to be in charge of guarding GE tubes at best 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Feeding the beast as we speak....


4 down, 1 to go Cheers 🍺🍺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Damn stop feeding that cat with a bucket of food lol.😺😺😺


That's actually the dog's food bowl.  But she weighs more than most small dogs, so there's that.   

She's almost 15 years old, so some allowance is granted for her to be a little, um, plump.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Are there high impedance IEM's?  50 ohms or higher I could handle pretty easily.
> 
> $828 US or so exchange rate.
> 
> Ok so we can do Krugerrands if that helps.


What about bitcowen?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What about bitcowen?


That's taken a bigger dive than Bitcoin this last week.  Last I saw it was trading for $0.000002.  Of course, when it reaches a whole penny (or 50 cents CAD) I'll be rich.


----------



## HTSkywalker

@bcowen  & @Paladin79 I have a question for you guys:
What's the difference between a Sylvania 6SN7GT marked 126 and another similar one marked 139


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 24, 2021)

13 **


** I actually do know but since you asked the question specifically of 2 individuals, I'll let them answer.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> 13
> 
> 
> ** I actually do know but since you asked the question specifically of 2 individuals, I'll let them answer.


Come on man  Shoot please
I named them coz I know they mostly have different perspectives


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen  & @Paladin79 I have a question for you guys:
> What's the difference between a Sylvania 6SN7GT marked 126 and another similar one marked 139


Probably date codes


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Probably date codes


So no preference here ?


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Probably date codes


Yep.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So no preference here ?


Nope


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> 13 **
> 
> 
> ** I actually do know but since you asked the question specifically of 2 individuals, I'll let them answer.


"13**" is that the price difference in $ 😃


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 24, 2021)

Date code.  "1" is the last digit of the year (either 41 or 51 depending on the era)  and the 26 and 39 are the week of MFG.

And the difference between the numbers 126 and 139 is 13.


----------



## Galapac

Oh, I thought we were gonna have some fun with @HTSkywalker , lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> "1" is the last digit of the year (either 41 or 51 depending on the era)  and the 26 and 39 are the week of MFG.


straight to the point, thanks 👍
Anyone tried or compared either ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Oh, I thought we were gonna have some fun with @HTSkywalker , lol.


😁😁😁😁


----------



## Ripper2860

Seeing as how the only difference is 13 weeks in MFG, I seriously doubt there is any difference in sound, assuming they both measure close to each other.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Seeing as how the only difference is 13 weeks in MFG, I seriously doubt there is any difference in sound, assuming they both measure close to each other.


1 measures 2600/2500, the other no measurements on it


----------



## HTSkywalker

Strange @bcowen was summoned but didn't appear 😃
God knows what's keeping him away.


----------



## Ripper2860

If you are only needing a single, I'd go with the measured tube.  2500/2600 seems strong and balanced, assuming the tester was calibrated.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen  & @Paladin79 I have a question for you guys:
> What's the difference between a Sylvania 6SN7GT marked 126 and another similar one marked 139


They're both 1951... Last two codes are the week of the year


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> If you are only needing a single, I'd go with the measured tube.  2500/2600 seems strong and balanced, assuming the tester was calibrated.


Tested using a calibrated Hickok 800 by Jeff from Lowtechelec.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> If you are only needing a single, I'd go with the measured tube.  2500/2600 seems strong and balanced, assuming the tester was calibrated.


In fact am a bit lost in either getting a pair of those or either of the attached


----------



## JKDJedi (May 24, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Strange @bcowen was summoned but didn't appear 😃
> God knows what's keeping him away.


Probably at the beach working on his tan


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Probably at the beach working on his tan


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Here is a link of my other options:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/102164...sn7&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1
and
https://www.etsy.com/listing/952918...n7&ref=sr_gallery-1-22&organic_search_click=1
or maybe:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/963287...sn7&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Strange @bcowen was summoned but didn't appear 😃
> God knows what's keeping him away.


Stupid me went back to work.  I figured a 6 month vacation was enough.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 24, 2021)

WTH!  Did NC cut the $300 a week unemployment kicker?   😏


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact am a bit lost in either getting a pair of those or either of the attached


Between those two, I'd go for the Raytheons (assuming you like the other one you got).  The CBS/Hytron 5692 is a very desirable tube, but the plain 6SN7 is nothing special to my ears (have a couple pair of those).   And that last one labeled as Matsushitas, not sure who made them (perhaps they did) but the getter holder on the Westinghouse labeled one is about to touch the plates.  If it sags further or breaks off, it's likely not going be a happy ending if it shorts the plates and grids or cathodes out.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> WTH!  Did NC cut the $300 a week unemployment kicker?   😏


LOL!  Not yet.  But starting in June they're going to make you prove you looked for a job to receive it, and that's more work than actually working.


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Here is a link of my other options:
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/102164...sn7&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1
> and
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/952918...n7&ref=sr_gallery-1-22&organic_search_click=1
> ...


Quite high prices, he’s selling about 3-4x the going rates on eBay. I don’t own those but have heard a couple. I would pass on that lot.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Not yet.  But starting in June they're going to make you prove you looked for a job to receive it, and that's more work than actually working.


With many sectors of the economy complaining about a shortage of qualified labour, being unemployed is a full-time job?...😜🤪...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Stupid me went back to work.  I figured a 6 month vacation was enough.


I just figured he taped his hands to the box he is shipping me and his wife just now found him.🪰🪰🪰🪰


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> WTH!  Did NC cut the $300 a week unemployment kicker?   😏


Actually, I thought that @bcowen resumed his caddy/chauffeur/cart scuba salvage instructor/life assistant gig on that down under AUD pay scale...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just figured he taped his hands to the box he is shipping me and his wife just now found him.🪰🪰🪰🪰


LOL!  No tape is a match for my herculean strength.  Good thing, as my wife would probably have just laughed and walked away.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Actually, I thought that @bcowen resumed his caddy/chauffeur/cart scuba salvage instructor/life assistant gig on that down under AUD pay scale...


I do that on the side.  The pay sucks, but it's *so* much fun driving golf carts into the lake.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  No tape is a match for my *Herculean *strength.  Good thing, as my wife would probably have just laughed and walked away.


Then the thirteenth labour for bcowen is getting a DarkVoice to continuously work - without hum/hiss/static/flares/shorts...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I do that on the side.  The pay sucks, but it's *so* much fun driving golf carts into the lake.


The real pros, like you I assume, at cart scuba leave maximum ripples and wake. Is that why spectators hold up rating cards upon lake entry?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The real pros, like you I assume, at cart scuba leave maximum ripples and wake. Is that why spectators hold up rating cards upon lake entry?


I always get 10's.  But I don't pay much attention to them....it really pisses off @UntilThen which is worth way more than any ratings.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I always get 10's.  But I don't pay much attention to them....it really pisses off @UntilThen which is worth way more than any ratings.


Leaving all those Fosters at lake bottom would do it !!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Stupid me went back to work.  I figured a 6 month vacation was enough.


there is no such thing as enough vacation 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Between those two, I'd go for the Raytheons (assuming you like the other one you got).  The CBS/Hytron 5692 is a very desirable tube, but the plain 6SN7 is nothing special to my ears (have a couple pair of those).   And that last one labeled as Matsushitas, not sure who made them (perhaps they did) but the getter holder on the Westinghouse labeled one is about to touch the plates.  If it sags further or breaks off, it's likely not going be a happy ending if it shorts the plates and grids or cathodes out.


Thanks for the recommendation, I will short list the Raytheon and see if he have other choices


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Quite high prices, he’s selling about 3-4x the going rates on eBay. I don’t own those but have heard a couple. I would pass on that lot.


He bought lately a shipment of 100,000 tubes 🙂🙂 which he still sorting out, hopefully he will come out with better recommendations


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> With many sectors of the economy complaining about a shortage of qualified labour, being unemployed is a full-time job?...😜🤪...


@bcowen is a qualified job seeker 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Then the thirteenth labour for bcowen is getting a DarkVoice to continuously work - without hum/hiss/static/flares/shorts...


Achieving that would take some supernatural powers 🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen is a qualified job seeker 🙂🙂


Hey somebody has to ask if you want fries with your order, I am glad he found work.🪰🪰🪰🪰

Those are cicadas, mornings here sound like 1,000 maraca players are in the trees.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey somebody has to ask if you want fries with your order, I am glad he found work.🪰🪰🪰🪰
> 
> Those are cicadas, mornings here sound like 1,000 maraca players are in the trees.


You sure about the cicadas making the noise  ?? turn off the DV first 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey somebody has to ask if you want fries with your order, I am glad he found work.🪰🪰🪰🪰
> 
> Those are cicadas, mornings here sound like 1,000 maraca players are in the trees.


That would be too much work for @bcowen unless he write it down on a cardboard instead of saying it 😍😆


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> there is no such thing as enough vacation 😁😁


Unless one views ‘work’ as an alternative to the honeydew list...🤪


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Unless one views ‘work’ as an alternative to the honeydew list...🤪


Well in that case......😍😍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey somebody has to ask if you want fries with your order, I am glad he found work.🪰🪰🪰🪰
> 
> Those are cicadas, mornings here sound like 1,000 maraca players are in the trees.


If it wasn't for what I'm making, your fries would be cold when you got them.   So you're welcome.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If it wasn't for what I'm making, your fries would be cold when you got them.   So you're welcome.


I see my tube tester is on the way to me so I can stop being nice to @bcowen    
My week is looking up.


----------



## Ripper2860

Be careful.  Being nice to @bcowen has been known to cause ulcers.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Be careful.  Being nice to @bcowen has been known to cause ulcers.


He had me at "hello" ❤️ 😏


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I see my tube tester is on the way to me so I can stop being nice to @bcowen
> My week is looking up.


Will you have to test the tube tester? Hypothesis: it has been pre-set to GE levels irrespective of make or vintage of tube for testing....👹


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Will you have to test the tube tester? Hypothesis: it has been pre-set to GE levels irrespective of make or vintage of tube for testing....👹


Better not be or I will be flying to North Carolina to have a talk with that boy. 🪰🪰🪰🪰


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I see my tube tester is on the way to me so I can stop being nice to @bcowen
> My week is looking up.


Can you remind me when you _started_ being nice?  I know I wrote it down somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Will you have to test the tube tester? Hypothesis: it has been pre-set to GE levels irrespective of make or vintage of tube for testing....👹


Sorry.  The meter has a range from 0 - 120 and won't register negative GM levels.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Can you remind me when you _started_ being nice?  I know I wrote it down somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.


It was multiple times, just trust me on this.🍺🍺🍺


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Can you remind me when you _started_ being nice?  I know I wrote it down somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.


Now now, isn’t there a stainless steel Incvbvs in the queue?...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Sorry.  The meter has a range from 0 - 120 and won't register negative GM levels.


It will register south of the equator....🙃....


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Now now, isn’t there a stainless steel Incvbvs in the queue?...


Yeah I should build something like that for @Ripper2860, a version 3, with dove tail joints. Maple and other maple.😜😜


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll box mine up this weekend and send her in while the offer is on the table.  You don't need to build me one from scratch, key component upgrades to form a 'sleeper' Incubus will do nicely.  😏


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Now now, isn’t there a stainless steel Incvbvs in the queue?...


Hmmmm.....guess what came with the new job?  Lots of stainless, a couple fiber lasers, and some very skilled welders.  I should probably wait a couple weeks before I start on any government projects though.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll box mine up this weekend and send her in while the offer is on the table.  You don't need to build me one from scratch, key component upgrades to form a 'sleeper' Incubus will do nicely.  😏


I've got some Chinese electroltyics I'll send to @Paladin79 to put in there for you.  What are friends for, right?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....guess what came with the new job?  Lots of stainless, a couple fiber lasers, and some very skilled welders.  I should probably wait a couple weeks before I start on any government projects though.


You could reopen the Lansdale plant and start making metal base loctals:  7COWEN7 for example.....or tidal/full wave wrecktifiers.....


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll box mine up this weekend and send her in while the offer is on the table.  You don't need to build me one from scratch, key component upgrades to form a 'sleeper' Incubus will do nicely.  😏


I will certainly see what I can do, Bill will just have to pretend he has the new version. I could always build him something in solid state of course.🤪🤪🤪🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will certainly see what I can do, Bill will just have to pretend he has the new version. I could always build him something in solid state of course.🤪🤪🤪🤪


Well, if you could think of something worse than GE's, that would be it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, if you could think of something worse than GE's, that would be it.


Bite your tongue bozo, some of the power tubes are decent.😊😊😊


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Bite your tongue bozo, some of the power tubes are decent.😊😊😊


Ah yes, the 5998A saga....the Rip review....your tube ampalooza....—> four 5998A _chez moi_....


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Ah yes, the 5998A saga....the Rip review....your tube ampalooza....—> four 5998A _chez moi_....


I have always admired your word usage and you can make a sentence without bringing up bar-b-cue unlike others who will remain nameless.😛😛😛😛


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I will certainly see what I can do, Bill will just have to pretend he has the new version. I could always build him something in solid state of course.🤪🤪🤪🤪


And with “wall-wart” switch mode power supply...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have always admired your word usage and you can make a sentence without bringing up bar-b-cue unlike others who will remain nameless.😛😛😛😛


and who live between Mexico and Oklahoma...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> And with “wall-wart” switch mode power supply...


I have designed switch mode power supplies but only for television circuits. That was years ago.😉😉😉


----------



## Ripper2860

jonathan c said:


> and who live between Mexico and Oklahoma...



I'll gladly switch to Texas politics, if you prefer.


----------



## jonathan c (May 26, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll gladly switch to Texas politics, if you prefer.


Skip that....onto electricity reliability....⚡️⚡️🤬


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I see my tube tester is on the way to me so I can stop being nice to @bcowen
> My week is looking up.


If I were you, I would be crossing my fingers till I physically receive the tester especially after the "fries" comment 😃😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Will you have to test the tube tester? Hypothesis: it has been pre-set to GE levels irrespective of make or vintage of tube for testing....👹


Not sure any tester can cover this large of a range to include negative results 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Can you remind me when you _started_ being nice?  I know I wrote it down somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.


Probably you wrote it down inside the tester as this was the only time he tried to be nice to you 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It was multiple times, just trust me on this.🍺🍺🍺


As long as the tester is kept hostage 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll box mine up this weekend and send her in while the offer is on the table.  You don't need to build me one from scratch, key component upgrades to form a 'sleeper' Incubus will do nicely.  😏


In that case, he will send you the Stainless steel box with fitting instructions 😃😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....guess what came with the new job?  Lots of stainless, a couple fiber lasers, and some very skilled welders.  I should probably wait a couple weeks before I start on any government projects though.


Sounds like a job in a GM plant 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I've got some Chinese electroltyics I'll send to @Paladin79 to put in there for you.  What are friends for, right?


Probably left from the stanch you used in @Paladin79 tester while counterfeiting it 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well, if you could think of something worse than GE's, that would be it.


And you will start hearing cicadas around the house 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Ah yes, the 5998A saga....the Rip review....your tube ampalooza....—> four 5998A _chez moi_....


That was chapter 1, now the Melz empire strikes back 😃😃is rolling


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> And with “wall-wart” switch mode power supply...


Why do I have the feeling that you are targeting the Mrs. @Paladin79 shed music box 😎😎


----------



## jonathan c

Read further up: the wall-wart s/m/p/s is for the stainless (spineless) *solid-state* ‘version’ of the Incubus headed to @bcowen (!!). It will be a miracle if that has any gm reading on @Paladin79 ’s tester...


----------



## Hamlap (May 26, 2021)

Guys. I bought some "6N8S Foton" tubes for the Darkvoice, but some of them have a dark buzz/hummm in them. Does this go away or are these simple faulty units?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 26, 2021)

Hamlap said:


> Guys. I bought some "6N8S Foton" tubes for the Darkvoice, but some of them have a dark buzz/hummm in them. Does this go away or are these simple faulty units?


DV and Russian tubes as a rule do not play well together. I sent some tubes to Skywalker just so he could try an assortment and I got down to one Melz where the hum was not too bad, otherwise I could not listen to any of them myself because of the loud noise. I deal with Melz and Fotons all the time and I replace the solder in the pins on most all of them so that was not an issue. Now mind you I had a low level of hum with all other tubes but the Russian tubes were by far, much worse. I might also mention that I have a huge assortment of Melz tubes to try and maybe 20 or more Fotons from the fifties.

Most of the tubes I tried had been burned in for several hours so in my mind the noise will not go away and it seems the noise is much worse in US versions of the amp running on 110 v AC.

Please note those tubes are fine in other amps I own especially the Fotons. On occasion I can get a Melz with just a bit of background noise without any signal.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> DV and Russian tubes as a rule do not play well together. I sent some tubes to Skywalker just so he could try an assortment and I got down to one Melz where the hum was not too bad, otherwise I could not listen to any of them myself because of the loud noise. I deal with Melz and Fotons all the time and I replace the solder in the pins on most all of them so that was not an issue. Now mind you I had a low level of hum with all other tubes but the Russian tubes were by far, much worse. I might also mention that I have a huge assortment of Melz tubes to try and maybe 20 or more Fotons from the fifties.


The Melz you sent my way is very quite and nice sounding in the DV 👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The Melz you sent my way is very quite and nice sounding in the DV 👍


Yep but I went through a lot of Melz to find one like that lol, in my DV anyway. I need to do some work with three more Incubus amps then I may get around to modifying the DV. As I recall I gave up on finding a suitable Foton.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Yep but I went through a lot of Melz to find one like that lol, in my DV anyway. I need to do some work with three more Incubus amps then I may get around to modifying the DV. As I recall I gave up on finding a suitable Foton.


True as you tested some Fotons too, in fact it’s 1 reason I didn’t venture into buying any Melz for the DV


----------



## Galapac

I just received a 1949 Melz and it also plays well in my DV. Granted this is the L0rdGwyn altered DV which may have something to do with it but the tube runs dead quiet through my vinyl/speaker setup.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I just received a 1949 Melz and it also plays well in my DV. Granted this is the L0rdGwyn altered DV which may have something to do with it but the tube runs dead quiet through my vinyl/speaker setup.


Using the DV as a preamp?


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I just received a 1949 Melz and it also plays well in my DV. Granted this is the L0rdGwyn altered DV which may have something to do with it but the tube runs dead quiet through my vinyl/speaker setup.


Can you show a photo of the 49 you got?  After I adapt mine I doubt I will have issues with any tube, I have thought through all my changes so I am hoping to do an entire rebuild in one weekend, new cabinet and all. The cabinet will take me longer than the electronics.   Melz made a lot of different 6sn7 equivalents and I believe the one I sent Skywalker had round micas.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Am using the DV


Paladin79 said:


> Can you show a photo of the 49 you got?  After I adapt mine I doubt I will have issues with any tube, I have thought through all my changes so I am hoping to do an entire rebuild in one weekend, new cabinet and all. The cabinet will take me longer than the electronics.   Melz made a lot of different 6sn7 equivalents and I believe the one I sent Skywalker had round micas.


 will check the round micas.
Once you decide on all the DV changes I will follow suit if you don’t mind sharing.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am using the DV
> 
> will check the round micas.
> Once you decide on all the DV changes I will follow suit if you don’t mind sharing.


As I said previously, I am going to incorporate one of my own power supply designs and that is not something I can share. Many of my parts would not fit inside a standard DV case anyway so they would be of little use to most folks and I do not want to get into supplying more extended cabinets.    I bought a DV so I could build Bill an accurate cabinet, we tend to help each other out. There are plenty of other modifications listed in this site, and while I have not read through them I bet they would be more suited to your purpose.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> As I said previously, I am going to incorporate one of my own power supply designs and that is not something I can share. Many of my parts would not fit inside a standard DV case anyway so they would be of little use to most folks and I do not want to get into supplying more extended cabinets.    I bought a DV so I could build Bill an accurate cabinet, we tend to help each other out. There are plenty of other modifications listed in this site, and while I have not read through them I bet they would be more suited to your purpose.


Copy that


----------



## DeweyCH

Very basic question but how do I test the heater voltage on my pins? Can I just steal the process from the crack instructions?


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Using the DV as a preamp?


My setup is in my signature
U-Turn Orbit Plus turntable > Cambridge Audio Solo MM Phono Preamplifier > Dark voice 336se > Klipsch R-15PM Powered Monitors/Earthquake Sound FF10 10-Inch Subwoofer


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> My setup is in my signature
> U-Turn Orbit Plus turntable > Cambridge Audio Solo MM Phono Preamplifier > Dark voice 336se > Klipsch R-15PM Powered Monitors/Earthquake Sound FF10 10-Inch Subwoofer


My DV also working as a preamp between my Cambridge CXN and Mcintosch amp but lately ordered an upgraded Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer using dual 6SN7 tubes to take over.
Should be using in it either dual RCA Gray Glass, 2 holes Sylvania or dual Raytheon T plates


----------



## Hamlap

Paladin79 said:


> DV and Russian tubes as a rule do not play well together. I sent some tubes to Skywalker just so he could try an assortment and I got down to one Melz where the hum was not too bad, otherwise I could not listen to any of them myself because of the loud noise. I deal with Melz and Fotons all the time and I replace the solder in the pins on most all of them so that was not an issue. Now mind you I had a low level of hum with all other tubes but the Russian tubes were by far, much worse. I might also mention that I have a huge assortment of Melz tubes to try and maybe 20 or more Fotons from the fifties.
> 
> Most of the tubes I tried had been burned in for several hours so in my mind the noise will not go away and it seems the noise is much worse in US versions of the amp running on 110 v AC.
> 
> Please note those tubes are fine in other amps I own especially the Fotons. On occasion I can get a Melz with just a bit of background noise without any signal.


Alright, thanks for this! One of the six I bought, is perfectly clean. And two are pretty clean. Three suck, haha!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> DV and Russian tubes as a rule do not play well together. I sent some tubes to Skywalker just so he could try an assortment and I got down to one Melz where the hum was not too bad, otherwise I could not listen to any of them myself because of the loud noise. I deal with Melz and Fotons all the time and I replace the solder in the pins on most all of them so that was not an issue. Now mind you I had a low level of hum with all other tubes but the Russian tubes were by far, much worse. I might also mention that I have a huge assortment of Melz tubes to try and maybe 20 or more Fotons from the fifties.
> 
> Most of the tubes I tried had been burned in for several hours so in my mind the noise will not go away and it seems the noise is much worse in US versions of the amp running on 110 v AC.
> 
> Please note those tubes are fine in other amps I own especially the Fotons. On occasion I can get a Melz with just a bit of background noise without any signal.


The Melz


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Very basic question but how do I test the heater voltage on my pins? Can I just steal the process from the crack instructions?


To test if the heaters are at 6.3v? It’s been discussed but remember, lay the DV on her side with the bottom cover removed and tubes installed. Turn it on. With your multimeter set to AC at a reasonable range. Place your two DMM +/- lead probes to lugs 7 and 8. My amp likes about 116v from the wall to achieve 6.3v. 

I just posted this not too long ago. You can buy one of these socket testers and you can do the same (have access to the pins), with the amp in it’s normal running state.


----------



## jonathan c

Do solid-staters have any idea what they are missing?...:


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> To test if the heaters are at 6.3v? It’s been discussed but remember, lay the DV on her side with the bottom cover removed and tubes installed. Turn it on. With your multimeter set to AC at a reasonable range. Place your two DMM +/- lead probes to lugs 7 and 8. My amp likes about 116v from the wall to achieve 6.3v.
> 
> I just posted this not too long ago. You can buy one of these socket testers and you can do the same (have access to the pins), with the amp in it’s normal running state.


I'm actually trying to figure out why neither tube socket seems to be receiving any power at all.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I'm actually trying to figure out why neither tube socket seems to be receiving any power at all.


Is this tied into the mods that the lord bestowed upon you? I think you did them. I mean such as a broken solder joint, lead, or failed resistor pertaining to dropping of the heater voltage. But I assume you checked. I really have no clue.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Is this tied into the mods that the lord bestowed upon you? I think you did them. I mean such as a broken solder joint, lead, or failed resistor pertaining to dropping of the heater voltage. But I assume you checked. I really have no clue.


I'm not sure, it didn't happen after any actual tinkering. I pulled off a knob from the pot shaft and put another one on, and suddenly the tubes don't heat up. Just checked and both measure at 6v on lugs 7 and 8.


----------



## DeweyCH (May 26, 2021)

I think I have a cold solder joint in there somewhere. After poking and prodding with the multimeter, I turned it back over and on and the power tube lit up. Then I moved it slightly and it powered right back down. Gonna probably have to resolder/reflow the heaters. C'est la vie.


----------



## DeweyCH

Ayy, success! A little solder reflow and we're back in business.






This is a solid combo - the Mullard 6080 and CBS/Hytron 6SN7. Crack has the TS graphite-plate 6080, which is excellent, but I'm kind of struggling to hear a big step up from the Mullard (or the TS 5998).


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> I think I have a cold solder joint in there somewhere. After poking and prodding with the multimeter, I turned it back over and on and the power tube lit up. Then I moved it slightly and it powered right back down. Gonna probably have to resolder/reflow the heaters. C'est la vie.


Remember to use flux, good luck!


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Ayy, success! A little solder reflow and we're back in business.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a solid combo - the Mullard 6080 and CBS/Hytron 6SN7. Crack has the TS graphite-plate 6080, which is excellent, but I'm kind of struggling to hear a big step up from the Mullard (or the TS 5998).


A ‘solid’ pairing in the Woo WA6 as well 😀....have you tried GEC CV2984 / GEC CV5008 with the CBS/Hytron in the DV? It is wonderful in the WA6.


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> A ‘solid’ pairing in the Woo WA6 as well 😀....have you tried GEC CV2984 / GEC CV5008 with the CBS/Hytron in the DV? It is wonderful in the WA6.


I haven't, but a pair of GEC CV4079s sound damned fine with the CBS.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Do solid-staters have any idea what they are missing?...:


I will send Finnegan over, he will clean off your table top in no time. He loves rubber bands so they would be the first things to go.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I will send Finnegan over, he will clean off your table top in no time. He loves rubber bands so they would be the first things to go.


There is very little in my life that has scarred me more than pulling a rubber band out of my cat after he'd eaten it.


----------



## Paladin79

DeweyCH said:


> There is very little in my life that has scarred me more than pulling a rubber band out of my cat after he'd eaten it.


Finnegan just tends to carry them around, and play fetch. I will shoot one across the floor, he races after it, brings it back and sets it on my desk so the game can continue.


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan just tends to carry them around, and play fetch. I will shoot one across the floor, he races after it, brings it back and sets it on my desk so the game can continue.


My cats have always been way into those little squishy glitter balls you get from Michael's. Much harder to eat, and they always learned to wait for me to flick one off my palm before they went tearing down the hallway.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Remember to use flux, good luck!


My wife just gave me a tiny plastic bottle with a needle tip that is great for liquid flux, perfect for adding it to the inside of tube pins. It is made for paint I believe so the opening size is about perfect.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Can you show a photo of the 49 you got?  After I adapt mine I doubt I will have issues with any tube, I have thought through all my changes so I am hoping to do an entire rebuild in one weekend, new cabinet and all. The cabinet will take me longer than the electronics.   Melz made a lot of different 6sn7 equivalents and I believe the one I sent Skywalker had round micas.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


>


Interesting, if you like it let me know and I may grab one myself.


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


>


Nice - looking forward to your impressions of it as well.  I'm still waiting on its brother the '48.  It just cleared US customs.  Long wait...


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Nice - looking forward to your impressions of it as well.  I'm still waiting on its brother the '48.  It just cleared US customs.  Long wait...


73 years 😜🤪 ?


----------



## Galapac

Slade01 said:


> Nice - looking forward to your impressions of it as well.  I'm still waiting on its brother the '48.  It just cleared US customs.  Long wait...


It sure was, I almost gave up. I remember you saying that you got the other one. I think it’s a great edition but I haven’t listened to it critically yet, just for fun.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably left from the stanch you used in @Paladin79 tester while counterfeiting it 😆😆😆


No, I used some 40 year old ones that I found in a box in my Dad's garage. Think he'd taken them out of an old TV or something. I'm pretty sure they'll last until the warranty runs out (which will be this Friday if FedEx delivers tomorrow).


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Read further up: the wall-wart s/m/p/s is for the stainless (spineless) *solid-state* ‘version’ of the Incubus headed to @bcowen (!!). It will be a miracle if that has any gm reading on @Paladin79 ’s tester...


The solid-state version of the Incubus will be some nice ballast for the trash hopper if it's windy on trash day.


----------



## bcowen

Hamlap said:


> Guys. I bought some "6N8S Foton" tubes for the Darkvoice, but some of them have a dark buzz/hummm in them. Does this go away or are these simple faulty units?


I have a few Fotons, and even with resoldered pins they all buzzed like a banshee in the DV until I added the bypass caps (Fitz mod) to the cathode resistors.  Quiet as a mouse after that.  The one Melz 1578 I have was actually pretty quiet (just a very low level hum) even before adding the caps.


----------



## bcowen

DeweyCH said:


> Ayy, success! A little solder reflow and we're back in business.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a solid combo - the Mullard 6080 and CBS/Hytron 6SN7. Crack has the TS graphite-plate 6080, which is excellent, but I'm kind of struggling to hear a big step up from the Mullard (or the TS 5998).


Not to nitpick, but that's a CBS/Hytron 5692, not a 6SN7.  Vastly different sound between the two (to my ears).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No, I used some 40 year old ones that I found in a box in my Dad's garage. Think he'd taken them out of an old TV or something. I'm pretty sure they'll last until the warranty runs out (which will be this Friday if FedEx delivers tomorrow).


You best start praying that your Incubus never fails cause of it does I will swap in a Chinese amp with no hope of resurrection. Get used to hum, that way you can hum along.🤪🤪🤪


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, I used some 40 year old ones that I found in a box in my Dad's garage. Think he'd taken them out of an old TV or something. I'm pretty sure they'll last until the warranty runs out (which will be this Friday if FedExpires comes tomorrow).


Fixed it....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You best start praying that your Incubus never fails cause of it does I will swap in a Chinese amp with no hope of resurrection. Get used to hum, that way you can hum along.🤪🤪🤪


If you get bored, learn the lyrics...then Mandarin...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have a few Fotons, and even with resoldered pins they all buzzed like a banshee in the DV until I added the bypass caps (Fitz mod) to the cathode resistors.  Quiet as a mouse after that.  The one Melz 1578 I have was actually pretty quiet (just a very low level hum) even before adding the caps.


As far as I am concerned, Bill’s sobriquet   Is Foton Bill because he owns most of them on planet earth.😜😜😜


----------



## therremans

@DeweyCH not sure if I missed it but how do you like the graphite plate 6080?


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> @DeweyCH not sure if I missed it but how do you like the graphite plate 6080?


So far I dig it. It's in my Crack, paired with a metal-base Sylvania 6SN7. I don't know that I hear a significant difference vs. the non-graphite 6080s I have, or a particular improvement over the TS 5998, but it does seem to add a touch of bass depth that wasn't there before.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> So far I dig it. It's in my Crack, paired with a metal-base Sylvania 6SN7


🤔 😬...no fixing this one. 🤣


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> 🤔 😬...no fixing this one. 🤣



*ROFL!!!!!!!!!    *


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You best start praying that your Incubus never fails cause of it does I will swap in a Chinese amp....


But then @Ripper2860 would have nothing to listen to.  That's mean.


----------



## Ripper2860

Unlikely.  I think I can proudly state that I am likely the only one in this thread that does not actually own a Chinese amp.  😝


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Unlikely.  I think I can proudly state that I am likely the only one in this thread that does not actually own a Chinese amp.  😝


Check the internal parts 😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Check the internal parts 😜


Check for rice in the tubes...


----------



## therremans

7N7 Philco (Sylvania) tall boy chrome dome, these sound nice - https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-Philco...-/393358674838?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Check for rice in the tubes...


That too 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Do solid-staters have any idea what they are missing?...:


They are definitely missing on the excitement of plugging a newly bought tube and pray it won't hum or buzz  🤣🤣🤣
Or the large grin we have once we get lucky with a nice sounding tube 😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Anyone tried those:
Tung-Sol 6SN7 6SN7GTB Silver Top Tall Bottle Black Plate Copper Support Rods​


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> Ayy, success! A little solder reflow and we're back in business.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a solid combo - the Mullard 6080 and CBS/Hytron 6SN7. Crack has the TS graphite-plate 6080, which is excellent, but I'm kind of struggling to hear a big step up from the Mullard (or the TS 5998).


How do you like the CBS ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will send Finnegan over, he will clean off your table top in no time. He loves rubber bands so they would be the first things to go.


Probably sweep the GE tubes as well 🙂


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> 7N7 Philco (Sylvania) tall boy chrome dome, these sound nice - https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-Philco...-/393358674838?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


Really excellent price for that one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan just tends to carry them around, and play fetch. I will shoot one across the floor, he races after it, brings it back and sets it on my desk so the game can continue.


So that's how you spend your time while you send @bcowen your homeworks 😉


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I have a few Fotons, and even with resoldered pins they all buzzed like a banshee in the DV until I added the bypass caps (Fitz mod) to the cathode resistors.  Quiet as a mouse after that.  The one Melz 1578 I have was actually pretty quiet (just a very low level hum) even before adding the caps.


Kind of heard at some point that this mod may have some undesired side effect 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You best start praying that your Incubus never fails cause of it does I will swap in a Chinese amp with no hope of resurrection. Get used to hum, that way you can hum along.🤪🤪🤪


You can use the DV original components after your planned upgrade, probably a full DV 😊😊😊


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So that's how you spend your time while you send @bcowen your homeworks 😉


I keep my priorities straight


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I keep my priorities straight


Any impressions on the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Silver Top Tall Bottle Black plate with copper support rods ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Any impressions on the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Silver Top Tall Bottle Black plate with copper support rods ?


It has been ages since I heard one so I best let someone else answer this. I would look for one but my work day starts in five minutes.


----------



## Ripper2860

HTSkywalker said:


> Check the internal parts 😜





jonathan c said:


> Check for rice in the tubes...



A random Chinese part does not a Chinese amp make.  

I checked my PSvane tube and nope -- no rice.  I did check my Foton and I think there is a bit of Borscht in there, but it's hard to tell.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> A random Chinese part does not a Chinese amp make.
> 
> I checked my PSvane tube and nope -- no rice.  I did check my Foton and I think there is a bit of Borscht in there, but it's hard to tell.


Mostly a vodka smell with the Fotons 🙂


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Unlikely.  I think I can proudly state that I am likely the only one in this thread that does not actually own a Chinese amp.  😝


Neither do I.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> Neither do I.


But this is a Chinese product discussion thread..........IMPOSTERS
will switch to mandarin from now on  🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> But this is a Chinese product discussion thread..........IMPOSTERS
> will switch to mandarin from now on  🤣🤣🤣🤣


他们必须认为我们是傻瓜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It has been ages since I heard one so I best let someone else answer this. I would look for one but my work day starts in five minutes.


👍....does @bcowen ’s ever start?....


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> 👍....does @bcowen ’s ever start?....


He has a new job so he has to be on his best behavior for at least two weeks I would think. If he starts getting on his cell phone responding to threads here they will think they hired a 19 year old in a much older body.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> He has a new job so he has to be on his best behavior for at least two weeks I would think. If he starts getting on his cell phone responding to threads here they will think they hired a 19 year old in a much older body.


...*NOT*...‘mens sana in corpore sano’


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> ...*NOT*...‘mens sana in corpore sano’


Very true, now Bill will have to look that up to know he has been insulted. I did a fairly respectable translation of the Aeneid as well as other works so I can still get by.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Very true, now Bill will have to look that up to know he has been insulted. I did a fairly respectable translation of the Aeneid as well as other works so I can still get by.


Actually, he may see it as high praise given his penchant for Marilyn Manson...


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> He has a new job so he has to be on his best behavior for at least two weeks I would think. If he starts getting on his cell phone responding to threads here they will think they hired a 19 year old in a much older body.


You mean Bill is still not done with his morning paper route!?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Neither do I.


I own a Darkvoice but it is Bill's fault, then I have one I bought for $10 and repaired just because it had magic eye tubes, and I ended up with one because the time it took to repair far exceeded the amps value.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> You mean Bill is still not done with his morning paper route!?


Can you imagine the trouble he has fitting himself on the banana seat on the bicycle????


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Can you imagine the trouble he has fitting himself on the banana seat on the bicycle????


Does he know that he should face the basket?


----------



## maketus

picture taken with a potato


----------



## DeweyCH

maketus said:


> picture taken with a potato


Shuguang Black Treasure and what kind of 6080?


----------



## DeweyCH

I put together a little foam stand for the tubes I like the most to roll in and out. Here's my "in-use" collection:

*In the Darkvoice:*
Mullard 6080
CBS/Hytron brown-base 5692 (which I like very much @HTSkywalker , it's a really nice tube, second only to the metal-base Sylvania among 6SN7s I have)

*In the Crack:*
Tung-Sol 6080
Sylvania 6SN7W

*Lying Sadly On Its Side:*
Foton 6N8S

*Stuffed In The Foam, Left Side (Back to Front):*
2x GEC CV4079s in an adapter
Mullard 6080
Tung-Sol 5998
2x more GEC CV4079s in another adapter

*Stuffed In The Foam, Right Side (Back to Front):*
US-made Tung-Sol 6SN7
Sylvania VT-99 in adapter
Philips ECC82/12AU7 (can't really see it... sorry)
2x Sylvania 6L5G in adapter
Mullard ECC82
RCA cleartop 12AU7

I want to say my favorite combo all-in is one of the CV4079/A2293 pairs with the 6L5G pair. The separation and soundstage are insane. But I need to give that VT-99 some more opportunities to shine; it was reeeeeally nice when I first listened to it, I just rolled out the adapter and haven't had the chance to roll it back in. I'm a little leery of putting that adapter into the 12AU7-6SN7 adapter to try it with the Crack, but I'll probably do it anyhoos.

What would your combo be, given your druthers?


----------



## DeweyCH

Ooh. Just a quick observation, but the VT-99 + TS 6080 has a really special sound, particularly in acoustic guitar and piano. Almost disturbingly realistic. Bass is solid.


----------



## Paladin79

I just received my tube tester back from Sir Cowen and he did a wonderful job on it!!


----------



## DeweyCH

Paladin79 said:


> I just received my tube tester back from Sir Cowen and he did a wonderful job on it!!


I made the mistake of asking him in a PM for a few quick thoughts on testers. My brain melted.


----------



## Galapac

DeweyCH said:


> I put together a little foam stand for the tubes I like the most to roll in and out. Here's my "in-use" collection:
> 
> *In the Darkvoice:*
> Mullard 6080
> ...


Nice!  @DeweyCH  People write lol all the time on here but last night you literally had me "Crack"ing up. I was laughing out loud a few times. 
Sometimes it's the simple things in life I know...


----------



## DeweyCH

Galapac said:


> Nice!  @DeweyCH  People write lol all the time on here but last night you literally had me "Crack"ing up. I was laughing out loud a few times.
> Sometimes it's the simple things in life I know...


It's funny how few people want to try out tubes you've had in your Crack for a while. Thanks for the compliment!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

DeweyCH said:


> I made the mistake of asking him in a PM for a few quick thoughts on testers. My brain melted.



Damn it, so the real game is tube tester hoarding!


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 27, 2021)

What?  You didn't get the memo??


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> 他们必须认为我们是傻瓜


Exactly 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> He has a new job so he has to be on his best behavior for at least two weeks I would think. If he starts getting on his cell phone responding to threads here they will think they hired a 19 year old in a much older body.


Especially when they know he listens to Manson


----------



## HTSkywalker

maketus said:


> picture taken with a potato


In fact you can use the DV as a potato grill 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

DeweyCH said:


> I put together a little foam stand for the tubes I like the most to roll in and out. Here's my "in-use" collection:
> 
> *In the Darkvoice:*
> Mullard 6080
> ...


Is the 5692 a Plug and play for the 6SN7 ?  I mean technically


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I just received my tube tester back from Sir Cowen and he did a wonderful job on it!!


GE tuned 😁😁


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Ooh. Just a quick observation, but the VT-99 + TS 6080 has a really special sound, particularly in acoustic guitar and piano. Almost disturbingly realistic. Bass is solid.


The TS graphite or metal plated 6080? Quick reminder on the graphite version, remember to let it warm up for about 20-30 before making critical listening observations. As far as the graphite, I think it sounds best with a tube that focuses on the high end or a full range tube.. some to try with it are the foton, Ts VT-99, VT-94A, 5692 red base. But it’s versatile. I never thought my graphite plate tubes sounded similar to the metal plates ones but I don’t own the crack. So my observations are solely based on the DV with Beyer’s.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> The TS graphite or metal plated 6080? Quick reminder on the graphite version, remember to let it warm up for about 20-30 before making critical listening observations. As far as the graphite, I think it sounds best with a tube that focuses on the high end or a full range tube.. some to try with it are the foton, Ts VT-99, VT-94A, 5692 red base. But it’s versatile. I never thought my graphite plate tubes sounded similar to the metal plates ones but I don’t own the crack. So my observations are solely based on the DV with Beyer’s.


Graphite, just got it a week or so ago. I'll try it with some others - so far have only paired it with the Sylvanias (VT-99 and metal base 6SN7W).


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Graphite, just got it a week or so ago. I'll try it with some others - so far have only paired it with the Sylvanias (VT-99 and metal base 6SN7W).


It reminds me of a mullard 6080 with a more pronounced low end.


----------



## DeweyCH

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the 5692 a Plug and play for the 6SN7 ?  I mean technically


I think so. I didn't need an adapter and there doesn't seem to be any difference in gain.


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> Is the 5692 a Plug and play for the 6SN7 ?  I mean technically


https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/5/5692.pdf
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf

Yeah, they’re really similar. I’ve read that the 5682 have a lower rated.., maybe it was plate dissipation. There was one theory on why it is rated to be 10,000 hours. It’s possible that it was developed this way but works with a 6sn7 socket as they share key operating specs, perhaps at a regular or less than originally intended lifespan if it was installed in a 5692 circuit. My GE labeled 5692 is one of my favorites. It sounded slightly better than the RCA branded one in my DV. I also have the CBS brown base which has a more pronounced mid range.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/5/5692.pdf
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
> 
> Yeah, they’re really similar. I’ve read that the 5682 have a lower rated.., maybe it was plate dissipation. There was one theory on why it is rated to be 10,000 hours. It’s possible that it was developed this way but works with a 6sn7 socket as they share key operating specs, perhaps at a regular or less than originally intended lifespan if it was installed in a 5692 circuit. My GE labeled 5692 is one of my favorites. It sounded slightly better than the RCA branded one in my DV. I also have the CBS brown base which has a more pronounced mid range.


Well I took @bcowen advice and got the Raytheon T plate and I really find it hard to roll it with any other tube I have.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> It's funny how few people want to try out tubes you've had in your Crack for a while. Thanks for the compliment!


Did you have to change the sockets to accept rectals?...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> 7N7 Philco (Sylvania) tall boy chrome dome, these sound nice - https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-Philco...-/393358674838?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


A genuine Frankentube.  Nice price too.  I'd buy it except I'm not buying any more tubes (and I already have a Frankie  ).


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Kind of heard at some point that this mod may have some undesired side effect 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️


Yes, it eliminates the negative feedback so it does affect the sound.  I didn't hear much of a difference with mine though...just killed the hum.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> He has a new job so he has to be on his best behavior for at least two weeks I would think. If he starts getting on his cell phone responding to threads here they will think they hired a 19 year old in a much older body.


Yeah, I just turned 20 last week.


----------



## DeweyCH

jonathan c said:


> Did you have to change the sockets to accept rectals?...


No but you kind of have to stretch them out over time so bigger pins can fit


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Can you imagine the trouble he has fitting himself on the banana seat on the bicycle????


I sit in the basket.  My chauffer sits in the banana seat.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Well I took @bcowen advice and got the Raytheon T plate and I really find it hard to roll it with any other tube I have.


Huh?  I thought you liked it?  It doesn't sound good with any of your power tubes?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Huh?  I thought you liked it?  It doesn't sound good with any of your power tubes?


I love it and what I meant i find it it hard to change to another tube as the Raytheon is addictive


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I love it and what I meant i find it it hard to change to another tube as the Raytheon is addictive


Oh, ok.  I was confused.  It was a long, long day on the paper route and I'm tired.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Oh, ok.  I was confused.  It was a long, long day on the paper route and I'm tired.


Thought so, although I double checked what I was drinking when you got me wrong 😜😜


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I just received my tube tester back from Sir Cowen and he did a wonderful job on it!!


I'll be damned...that is some fine shade/finish in Carolina Blue.  That tester looks like its in pristine condition!


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> It sure was, I almost gave up. I remember you saying that you got the other one. I think it’s a great edition but I haven’t listened to it critically yet, just for fun.



Sounds good.  Yeah - the '48 came today finally.   Time to give the 6J5s a break and tune into something different.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'll be damned...that is some fine shade/finish in Carolina Blue.  That tester looks like its in pristine condition!


It was in decent shape appearance wise when sent to Bill, it came from a community college and they probably had it on a shelf for years. It took me a long time to find one in that condition and it worked fine for a couple years till a tube went out and a few components got smoked.  I would have fixed it eventually but Bill specializes in such things and I kept working on other items.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I just turned 20 last week.


For the 39th time?...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh, ok.  I was confused.  It was a long, long day on the paper route and I'm tired.


Did you actually have the papers...I thought that you just rode the route...?


----------



## therremans (May 28, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Sounds good.  Yeah - the '48 came today finally.   Time to give the 6J5s a break and tune into something different.


My 59' hasn't left my amp yet, paired with the 5998. I'm trying to give it some decent burn in hours. I do like how it brings out a low end in the 5998, although never really reaching the depth + punch as graphite. It really reminds me of using my Russian Svetlana 6AS7G with various output tubes, it provides a low/mid boost to the signal. The high end unfortunately still lacks some refinement and definition, no crisp clean resolve here. But the tube has a unique sound character that I would call *smooth*. After putting at least 100 hours on it, I feel like the soundstage has opened up a bit, but that could just be me. I will have to try out another year when I find the opportunity. I don't plan on selling it as it is the only one I have.





Edit: Going from that Melz to this 5692 red base.. what a difference. My clean high end is back, defined and actually wide spanning sound stage. To add, the midrange and low end is not as overly pronounced anymore and I will need to swap power tubes if that is something I want. That is a pretty nice characteristic that the Melz has.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> My 59' hasn't left my amp yet, paired with the 5998. I'm trying to give it some decent burn in hours. I do like how it brings out a low end in the 5998, although never really reaching the depth + punch as graphite. It really reminds me of using my Russian Svetlana 6AS7G with various output tubes, it provides a low/mid boost to the signal. The high end unfortunately still lacks some refinement and definition, no crisp clean resolve here. But the tube has a unique sound character that I would call *smooth*. After putting at least 100 hours on it, I feel like the soundstage has opened up a bit, but that could just be me. I will have to try out another year when I find the opportunity. I don't plan on selling it as it is the only one I have.
> 
> 
> Edit: Going from that Melz to this 5692 red base.. what a difference. My clean high end is back, defined and actually wide spanning sound stage. To add, the midrange and low end is not as overly pronounced anymore and I will need to swap power tubes if that is something I want. That is a pretty nice characteristic that the Melz has.


I get different results but then I will not be using a DV until I modify it. I have a loaner pair of ZMF Verite open headphones coming in to test but thus far only the Focal Utopias can really show off high frequencies for me. Other headphones seem to have a ceiling IMHO.  My amps are tuned to my tastes so most anything I say is not comparing apples to apples. The 59 Melz in the right amp with a Tung Sol 5998 or a Chatham bottom getter are sublime for me. The 59 opens up the entire sound spectrum yet I like the 61 a bit better, and I best not get into the solid plate Melz cause they are as rare as unicorn tears.   A few folks here have heard the one I loaned out.  I use plenty of 5692's but generally as pairs in my pre-amp.


----------



## qingcai

you need a fan in summer.


----------



## Paladin79

qingcai said:


> you need a fan in summer.


I mostly do Class A amps but everything is downstairs in my house and it stays cool summer and winter so no fans for me.


----------



## qingcai

use 9V + any computer fan will be very quiet. 5V is even quieter. buy any 200mm fan is good


----------



## SHIMACM (May 28, 2021)

Holy addiction! There is money. I don't think I buy tubes anymore.

Edit:

Those in the photos were the ones who stayed.

Those who have already left:

RCA 6as7g
Svetlana 6as7g
Tung-Sol 5998
Sylvania 6080
GE 5998a
RCA vt231 gray glass
Raytheon vt231
KenRad vt231
Sylvania vt231
Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb
Sylvania 6sn7wgt

Still gives a little bit of curiosity:

Brimar 6c5g
Mullard 6j5g
Cossor 6j5g
Fivre 6j5gt


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I get different results but then I will not be using a DV until I modify it. I have a loaner pair of ZMF Verite open headphones coming in to test but thus far only the Focal Utopias can really show off high frequencies for me. Other headphones seem to have a ceiling IMHO.  My amps are tuned to my tastes so most anything I say is not comparing apples to apples. The 59 Melz in the right amp with a Tung Sol 5998 or a Chatham bottom getter are sublime for me. The 59 opens up the entire sound spectrum yet I like the 61 a bit better, and I best not get into the solid plate Melz cause they are as rare as unicorn tears.   A few folks here have heard the one I loaned out.  I use plenty of 5692's but generally as pairs in my pre-amp.


Yes, I believe you. This is why I’m hesitant to sell tubes that I only have one of. With any variable change, you may prefer different tubes than previous. I can only report what I hear with the Darkvoice, however mine also has many mods.


----------



## jonathan c

jonathan c said:


> Did you actually have the papers...I thought that you just rode the route...?


The next phase will be the quasi-Scottish activity: tossing the paper...can the driveway be landed?...


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yes, I believe you. This is why I’m hesitant to sell tubes that I only have one of. With any variable change, you may prefer different tubes than previous. I can only report what I hear with the Darkvoice, however mine also has many mods.


I only buy that which Bill Cowen does not gift me, usually Melz. I look for tubes not in my 6sn7 equivalent challenge but I am running out of ideas. At this point we are probably over 1,500 types and variations valued past $50k last I heard.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 28, 2021)

Paint bottle with needle tip,  liquid rosin applicator for tube pins.


----------



## jonathan c (May 28, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Paint bottle with needle tip,  liquid rosin applicator for tube pins.


Even tubes need COVID-19 vaccination...prevents rice accumulation inside?...


----------



## JKDJedi (May 29, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> The Melz


? Melz,, *1578?*


----------



## Paladin79 (May 29, 2021)

Finnegan was a great help today on cables. I also resurrected an old RCA meter I forgot I owned. I am gifting some Sennheisers with one of my amps so I built a variety of cables, high purity copper, silver plated, and solid silver wires.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I'll be damned...that is some fine shade/finish in Carolina Blue.  That tester looks like its in pristine conditio





SHIMACM said:


> Holy addiction! There is money. I don't think I buy tubes anymore.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


I remember when you just had the stock tubes!! Wow.. love it, very nice!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan was a great help today on cables. I also resurrected an old RCA meter I forgot I owned. I am gifting some Sennheisers with one of my amps so I built a variety of cables, high purity copper, silver plated, solid silver wires, *and cat saliva to reduce break-in time.*


Here...fixed this for you.   



And my meter is bigger than yours.    This is what I used for final calibration on your tester, as some of the voltages are supposed to be measured with a 1000 ohm/volt impedance and most modern DVM's have way higher impedance.   Only the best for you, of course.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Here...fixed this for you.
> 
> 
> 
> And my meter is bigger than yours.    This is what I used for final calibration on your tester, as some of the voltages are supposed to be measured with a 1000 ohm/volt impedance and most modern DVM's have way higher impedance.   Only the best for you, of course.


As it should be lol only the best for me. 😎Yeah I understand the meter ratings and meters like yours are getting harder and harder to find. This meter has one setting where full deflection is achieved at .5 v dc.and it has a large meter scale.🪰🪰


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> Holy addiction! There is money. I don't think I buy tubes anymore.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


You did let go beautiful tubes, why is that?? 🥸🥸


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Even tubes need COVID-19 vaccination...prevents rice accumulation inside?...


Beware as some vaccines may lead to tube death 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> ? Melz,, *1578?*


Not much identification marking on it but @Paladin79  may be able to identify as it was a gift from him


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan was a great help today on cables. I also resurrected an old RCA meter I forgot I owned. I am gifting some Sennheisers with one of my amps so I built a variety of cables, high purity copper, silver plated, and solid silver wires.


Finnegan seems to be assisting in cable durability testing 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Here...fixed this for you.
> 
> 
> 
> And my meter is bigger than yours.    This is what I used for final calibration on your tester, as some of the voltages are supposed to be measured with a 1000 ohm/volt impedance and most modern DVM's have way higher impedance.   Only the best for you, of course.


With such a meter, you just answered who’s the eldest between you and your sister 😜


----------



## maketus

DeweyCH said:


> Shuguang Black Treasure and what kind of 6080?


cheap Ge Jan 6080wc


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan was a great help today on cables. I also resurrected an old RCA meter I forgot I owned. I am gifting some Sennheisers with one of my amps so I built a variety of cables, high purity copper, silver plated, and solid silver wires.


The RCA WV-98 series are great meters. I have a WV-98A purchased in 1961 and still in use, complete with original manual and parts list. I see that yours is a C model, which has a different circuit than the A.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> The RCA WV-98 series are great meters. I have a WV-98A purchased in 1961 and still in use, complete with original manual and parts list. I see that yours is a C model, which has a different circuit than the A.


They do seem to last forever. I believe this takes a 12AU7 and rectifier tube.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> They do seem to last forever. I believe this takes a 12AU7 and rectifier tube.


Takes a 12AU7 and a 6al5 dual diode. The only required mod is to replace the selenium rectifier with a 1N400x series silicon diode and most probably the electrolytic capacitor.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Takes a 12AU7 and a 6al5 dual diode. The only required mod is to replace the selenium rectifier with a 1N400x series silicon diode and most probably the electrolytic capacitor.


Already did that right after I opened it, and the battery, I had not used the meter  for decades.


----------



## Paladin79

Mid June I will start on my DV mods, I am still deciding on cabinet design but my shop is clean so the electronics will be done first.


----------



## Ripper2860

Put a lid on it.  Dig a hole the yard and just bury it.  It'll never sound better.  😏


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Put a lid on it.  Dig a hole the yard and just bury it.  It'll never sound better.  😏


I will just say I am keeping the top plate, transformer cover, and tube sockets.😀
It might resemble an Incubus when done.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I will just say I am keeping the top plate, transformer cover, and tube sockets.😀
> It might resemble an Incubus when done.


Why would I not be surprised?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Why would I not be surprised?


Whether I keep it or pass it along I will have to like the sound.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I will just say I am keeping the top plate, transformer cover, and tube sockets.😀
> It might resemble an Incubus when done.


Voicubus ?


----------



## Mr Trev

Dark-Inky 337gt pro?


----------



## Mr Trev

Oops. I forgot "mk.I"


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I will just say I am keeping the top plate, transformer cover, and tube sockets.😀
> It might resemble an Incubus when done.


Name suggestion no. 2:   Paladarkubus


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Name suggestion no. 2:   Paladarkubus


You are not helping.😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Mid June I will start on my DV mods, I am still deciding on cabinet design but my shop is clean so the electronics will be done first.


Already looking good 😍😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Already looking good 😍😍


Just thinking through possible wood types right now, and if I want to try to do dove tail joints.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Put a lid on it.  Dig a hole the yard and just bury it.  It'll never sound better.  😏


@Ripper2860 is holding a grudge for Chinese products 😂😂😂
I assure you once @Paladin79 is through with it, it will be “made with pride in the USA” with the original components in Finnegan toy box


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I will just say I am keeping the top plate, transformer cover, and tube sockets.😀
> It might resemble an Incubus when done.


Just build an Incubus and send the DV to the salvation army 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Voicubus ?


Believe me just another classic Incubus minus the cover, the plate and the holders 😀


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Believe me just another classic Incubus minus the cover, the plate and the holders 😀


There could be a few other parts I will use, I will have to see.   It will have to be pretty no matter what and as much as I want to start, I need to keep my shop clean next weekend to show off some of my amps to friends. I also have a birthday coming up so I will be relaxing some.

I will not go full blown Incubus on the DV even though I kid about that and I may leave off the preamp out or re-design it all together, that is the least of my worries.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> There could be a few other parts I will use, I will have to see.   It will have to be pretty no matter what and as much as I want to start, I need to keep my shop clean next weekend to show off some of my amps to friends. I also have a birthday coming up so I will be relaxing some.
> 
> I will not go full blown Incubus on the DV even though I kid about that and I may leave off the preamp out or re-design it all together, that is the least of my worries.


Just save the rubber feet and slide a @Paladin79 creation on them.


----------



## Mr Trev

sam6550a said:


> Just save the rubber feet and slide a @Paladin79 creation on them.


And don't forget one of those "Hi-Res Audio" stickers!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> There could be a few other parts I will use, I will have to see.   It will have to be pretty no matter what and as much as I want to start, I need to keep my shop clean next weekend to show off some of my amps to friends. I also have a birthday coming up so I will be relaxing some.
> 
> I will not go full blown Incubus on the DV even though I kid about that and I may leave off the preamp out or re-design it all together, that is the least of my worries.


Although I'm looking forward to see what comes out of the lab, part of me still would like to see what voodoo you could pull off but keep it fundamentally a DV.
Maybe one day I should send you the cash to buy a DV for me and do your magic on it. Like make it iem and planar friendly


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Maybe one day I should send you the cash to buy a DV for me and do your magic on it. Like make it iem and planar friendly work 😉


----------



## Galapac

Mr Trev said:


> Although I'm looking forward to see what comes out of the lab, part of me still would like to see what voodoo you could pull off but keep it fundamentally a DV.
> Maybe one day I should send you the cash to buy a DV for me and do your magic on it. Like make it iem and planar friendly


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There could be a few other parts I will use, I will have to see.   It will have to be pretty no matter what and as much as I want to start, I need to keep my shop clean next weekend to show off some of my amps to friends. I also have a birthday coming up so I will be relaxing some.
> 
> I will not go full blown Incubus on the DV even though I kid about that and I may leave off the preamp out or re-design it all together, that is the least of my worries.


Curious to see the end result 🤩


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> Just save the rubber feet and slide a @Paladin79 creation on them.


No rubber feet as this is going to be wood boxed for sure 😁


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> No rubber feet as this is going to be wood boxed for sure 😁


Buried?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Buried?


In a wood box carrying the DV name plate 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> It sure was, I almost gave up. I remember you saying that you got the other one. I think it’s a great edition but I haven’t listened to it critically yet, just for fun.



I'm listening to it now (Melz 48) for semi-critical-fun.   I've gotta say I already agree with you in it being a great tube.  Knowing it sounds like this, it seems like a steal at the price point we paid for this.  Literally, my only knock on this tube is that it is a little bit bass lean but still good, and maybe feel it is just very slightly rolled off the top and probably you'd only notice it on songs that really emphasize that range or if you're coming off listening from a detailed monster tube like an L63.

It just really shines in vocals and mid range and blends well with the upper range.   When you listen to this tube you will never feel that music is out of whack - everything is pulled together in a nice musical way.   It's solid across the rest of the spectrum (save for very end tips)  Still maintains great separation with all instruments, nice decay on notes, nice soundstage/imaging - everything is controlled.  Even with guitar distortion and guitar crunches, they are so well defined with bite.  Loving this tube right now. 

I don't even want to know how well a (hole plate) Melz 1578 really sounds if my regular tube sounds the way it is.  But I'll say the hype is real with these tubes.  This is paired with a Sylvania GB6080 which I run as an all-around.  Again pairing it with fancy 5998s and Graphite 6080s would probably take this up a notch or two.  Perhaps if the GE 5998A is bass weighted...might be a very complementary power tube to the Melz.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 2, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I'm listening to it now (Melz 48) for semi-critical-fun.   I've gotta say I already agree with you in it being a great tube.  Knowing it sounds like this, it seems like a steal at the price point we paid for this.  Literally, my only knock on this tube is that it is a little bit bass lean but still good, and maybe feel it is just very slightly rolled off the top and probably you'd only notice it on songs that really emphasize that range or if you're coming off listening from a detailed monster tube like an L63.
> 
> It just really shines in vocals and mid range and blends well with the upper range.   When you listen to this tube you will never feel that music is out of whack - everything is pulled together in a nice musical way.   It's solid across the rest of the spectrum (save for very end tips)  Still maintains great separation with all instruments, nice decay on notes, nice soundstage/imaging - everything is controlled.  Even with guitar distortion and guitar crunches, they are so well defined with bite.  Loving this tube right now.
> 
> I don't even want to know how well a (hole plate) Melz 1578 really sounds if my regular tube sounds the way it is.  But I'll say the hype is real with these tubes.  This is paired with a Sylvania GB6080 which I run as an all-around.  Again pairing it with fancy 5998s and Graphite 6080s would probably take this up a notch or two.  Perhaps if the GE 5998A is bass weighted...might be a very complementary power tube to the Melz.


Where are you located @Slade01 ? I have a Melz 1578 and GE 5998A out with one of my loaner amps right now, headed for California soon.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Where are you located @Slade01 ? I have a Melz 1578 and GE 5998A out with one of my loaner amps right now, headed for California soon.



I'm on the East Coast in Jersey.  I'm a good 450 something miles north of Tarheel/Carolina BBQ country.     Though I am in NJ Pork Roll/Diners/Salt Water Taffy country.  Makes breakfast interesting for sure.  I think Bon Jovi and the Boss likes it...


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'm on the East Coast in Jersey.  I'm a good 450 something miles north of Tarheel/Carolina BBQ country.     Though I am in NJ Pork Roll/Diners/Salt Water Taffy country.  Makes breakfast interesting for sure.  I think Bon Jovi and the Boss likes it...


LOL, I believe there will just be one stop out west then the amp will be headed East again. If you have an interest in hearing an Incubus Elegan amp and those tubes I might get it to Jersey.


----------



## Galapac

Slade01 said:


> I'm listening to it now (Melz 48) for semi-critical-fun.   I've gotta say I already agree with you in it being a great tube.  Knowing it sounds like this, it seems like a steal at the price point we paid for this.  Literally, my only knock on this tube is that it is a little bit bass lean but still good, and maybe feel it is just very slightly rolled off the top and probably you'd only notice it on songs that really emphasize that range or if you're coming off listening from a detailed monster tube like an L63.
> 
> It just really shines in vocals and mid range and blends well with the upper range.   When you listen to this tube you will never feel that music is out of whack - everything is pulled together in a nice musical way.   It's solid across the rest of the spectrum (save for very end tips)  Still maintains great separation with all instruments, nice decay on notes, nice soundstage/imaging - everything is controlled.  Even with guitar distortion and guitar crunches, they are so well defined with bite.  Loving this tube right now.
> 
> I don't even want to know how well a (hole plate) Melz 1578 really sounds if my regular tube sounds the way it is.  But I'll say the hype is real with these tubes.  This is paired with a Sylvania GB6080 which I run as an all-around.  Again pairing it with fancy 5998s and Graphite 6080s would probably take this up a notch or two.  Perhaps if the GE 5998A is bass weighted...might be a very complementary power tube to the Melz.


Good to hear you like it as well. Yes it was worth the wait.
I kept mine completely Russian and paired it with a 1957 Svetlana 6N5S, which is surprisingly good.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Good to hear you like it as well. Yes it was worth the wait.
> I kept mine completely Russian and paired it with a 1957 Svetlana 6N5S, which is surprisingly good.



I am a fan of the 50’s Svetlanas, I have over a dozen, some military issue.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> I'm on the East Coast in Jersey.  I'm a good 450 something miles north of Tarheel/Carolina BBQ country.     Though I am in NJ Pork Roll/Diners/Salt Water Taffy country.  Makes breakfast interesting for sure.  I think Bon Jovi and the Boss likes it...


Who doesn't after your mouth watering description of it 😄😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ordered this pair yesterday, Raytheon black ladder plates with extra support rods.
After extensive testing being conducted by Jeff @ Lowtechelec comparing it to mostly all Matched Pairs he have in his stock and it proved to be the cleanest and best sounding. Will try in a Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer which should reach me soon.


----------



## Deceneu808

After months of tubeless music my Elise has finally arrived. Thanks to my DV I had a shopping spree last year on tubes. I now have a place for them
I'll leave the DV as a side project for later to fix the volume pot for good. This cloud I'm on right now feels so good and I don't want to get off it.





Miss the gang here


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 3, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> After months of tubeless music my Elise has finally arrived. Thanks to my DV I had a shopping spree last year on tubes. I now have a place for them
> I'll leave the DV as a side project for later to fix the volume pot for good. This cloud I'm on right now feels so good and I don't want to get off it.
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good 
How do you like the Elise and with which cans are you using with it ?


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jun 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Looking good
> How do you like the Elise and with which cans are you using it ?


I played just one song on the HD600 to remember why I haven't sold them. 880s sound frickin scary as in very good from what I remember them. Not even close as to what they sounded like on the DV but I'm pretty much stuck on Aeolus right now. As a first impression I keep having these weird food analogies just like I've used to describe the Aeolus. Think of a Pineapple well ripped sweet juicy and with that bite after. Very good dynamics on the Elise. Like I said, I'm high on cloud 9. Very random songs keep coming on and they just click


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I played just one song on the HD600 to remember why I haven't sold them. 880s sound frickin scary as in very good from what I remember them. Not even close as to what they sounded like on the DV but I'm pretty much stuck on Aeolus right now. As a first impression I keep having these weird food analogies just like I've used to describe the Aeolus. Think of a Pineapple well ripped sweet juicy and with that bite after. Very good dynamics on the Elise. Like I said, I'm high on cloud 9. Very random songs keep coming on and they just click


Do you work in marketing ? 😁😁😁
Am checking both the Elise and the Aeolus just now.


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Do you work in marketing ? 😁😁😁
> Am checking both the Elise and the Aeolus just now.


Haha. Just quit today actually as a analyst buyer/purchasing. Might look in to marketing


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Haha. Just quit today actually as a analyst buyer/purchasing. Might look in to marketing


Bought the Elise directly online from Feliks Audio Poland ?


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Bought the Elise directly online from Feliks Audio Poland ?


Yes straight from Feliks in Poland. I even got a pair of Svetlanas and a pair of Psvanes 6SN7 with it even though I purchased it without tubes for 1199. It was 1299 with them sooo nice surprise there from Lukasz at Feliks after I've sent him like 20 mails asking for a delivery date lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes straight from Feliks in Poland. I even got a pair of Svetlanas and a pair of Psvanes 6SN7 with it even though I purchased it without tubes for 1199. It was 1299 with them sooo nice surprise there from Lukasz at Feliks after I've sent him like 20 mails asking for a delivery date lol


So will ask for Lukasz and threaten him with 30 emails see how many tubes I can blackmail with my order too 😃😃😃


----------



## therremans

SHUGUANG TREASURE CV181-Z

Overall it's a lovely sounding tube. I ran it with the Bendix 6080WB, it's a great match for it. Clean and detailed high end that is a bit airy. The low end can be really detailed, no mud. Soundstage was definitely notable with superb channel separation. Overall, pretty impressive and it makes me happy to know that this is new production. I should also note that both tubes come tested (mA) from the manufacturer, both of mine have perfectly matched, 8.5 mA for all four triodes. I tested them myself and the two test right at NOS, however the second triode (Gm) is 10-15% higher on each tube. It doesn't bother me but it makes me wonder if their numbers are made up. Anyone else have a similar experience? I have heard these can have a lower lifespan vs old stock. But I do recommend trying one out if you can.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> SHUGUANG TREASURE CV181-Z
> 
> Overall it's a lovely sounding tube. I ran it with the Bendix 6080WB, it's a great match for it. Clean and detailed high end that is a bit airy. The low end can be really detailed, no mud. Soundstage was definitely notable with superb channel separation. Overall, pretty impressive and it makes me happy to know that this is new production. I should also note that both tubes come tested (mA) from the manufacturer, both of mine have perfectly matched, 8.5 mA for all four triodes. I tested them myself and the two test right at NOS, however the second triode (Gm) is 10-15% higher on each tube. It doesn't bother me but it makes me wonder if their numbers are made up. Anyone else have a similar experience? I have heard these can have a lower lifespan vs old stock. But I do recommend trying one out if you can.


What’s the truth of it being more SS Sounding than tubey


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> SHUGUANG TREASURE CV181-Z
> 
> Overall it's a lovely sounding tube. I ran it with the Bendix 6080WB, it's a great match for it. Clean and detailed high end that is a bit airy. The low end can be really detailed, no mud. Soundstage was definitely notable with superb channel separation. Overall, pretty impressive and it makes me happy to know that this is new production. I should also note that both tubes come tested (mA) from the manufacturer, both of mine have perfectly matched, 8.5 mA for all four triodes. I tested them myself and the two test right at NOS, however the second triode (Gm) is 10-15% higher on each tube. It doesn't bother me but it makes me wonder if their numbers are made up. Anyone else have a similar experience? I have heard these can have a lower lifespan vs old stock. But I do recommend trying one out if you can.


I imagine it sounds exactly as the Psvane CV-181


----------



## maketus

i have same tube tested 11,5mA ..  Sounds more like ss amp,maybe a very small difference warmer and smokey. psvane T series more like a ss amp brighter colder  they start to make this tubes 2008,  shuguang 50th birthdays


----------



## therremans (Jun 4, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> What’s the truth of it being more SS Sounding than tubey


I personally didn’t have solidstate come to mind when listening. However I can understand why someone would make that comparison as the sound is fairly dynamic and detailed. It is a little less tubey than some old stock. it lacked a rich midrange but it didn’t sound nearly as sterile as the Tung-Sol 6C5 metal can for example. That was a very SS sounding tube. also, the driver tube character should still be dependent on the output tube used. I heard a big difference coming from the 5998 to the Bendix.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I personally didn’t have solidstate come to mind when listening. However I can understand why someone would make that comparison as the sound is fairly dynamic and detailed. It is a little less tubey than some old stock. it lacked a rich midrange but it didn’t sound nearly as sterile as the Tung-Sol 6C5 metal can for example. That was a very SS sounding tube. also, the driver tube character should still be dependent on the output tube used. I heard a big difference coming from the 5998 to the Bendix.


If NOS tubes suddenly disappeared on this planet, this would be a top go-to tube for me when it comes to new production types.  Even if it lacks the rich mid range compared to more "tubey" sounding tubes, it more than makes up in all the other areas in spades.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> If NOS tubes suddenly disappeared on this planet, this would be a top go-to tube for me when it comes tos new production types.  Even if it lacks the rich mid range compared to more "tubey" sounding tubes, it more than makes up in all the other areas in spades.


If this happens, I would surely know who is the tube harvester 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

But still GE tubes will always be there 😆😆


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> But still GE tubes will always be there 😆😆



FWIW - I'm sure there are some that love the GE tubes and so they are made for them.  There is a tube seller here in the US that has a pretty good reputation: Brent Jessee, his website has alot of info on tubes (http://www.audiotubes.com/).   I always quote this from his site on the GEs - (Regarding 6SN7s GE:  _"The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_) ...as a reminder that ears and gear differ and could greatly alter the trajectory of how you experience a tube....there is gear out there that makes GE tubes sound like a premium Amperex apparently.   LOL.  Unfortunately that is not the case with my setup.   But this is the adventure of tube rolling!


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> FWIW - I'm sure there are some that love the GE tubes and so they are made for them.  There is a tube seller here in the US that has a pretty good reputation: Brent Jessee, his website has alot of info on tubes (http://www.audiotubes.com/).   I always quote this from his site on the GEs - (Regarding 6SN7s GE:  _"The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_) ...as a reminder that ears and gear differ and could greatly alter the trajectory of how you experience a tube....there is gear out there that makes GE tubes sound like a premium Amperex apparently.   LOL.  Unfortunately that is not the case with my setup.   But this is the adventure of tube rolling!


I have used Brent Jesse often - especially for Siemens 7308s etc. He is one of THE few that I frequent.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> FWIW - I'm sure there are some that love the GE tubes and so they are made for them.  There is a tube seller here in the US that has a pretty good reputation: Brent Jessee, his website has alot of info on tubes (http://www.audiotubes.com/).   I always quote this from his site on the GEs - (Regarding 6SN7s GE:  _"The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_) ...as a reminder that ears and gear differ and could greatly alter the trajectory of how you experience a tube....there is gear out there that makes GE tubes sound like a premium Amperex apparently.   LOL.  Unfortunately that is not the case with my setup.   But this is the adventure of tube rolling!


Agree but in general GE tubes a bad reputation


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> FWIW - I'm sure there are some that love the GE tubes and so they are made for them.  There is a tube seller here in the US that has a pretty good reputation: Brent Jessee, his website has alot of info on tubes (http://www.audiotubes.com/).   I always quote this from his site on the GEs - (Regarding 6SN7s GE:  _"The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."_) ...as a reminder that ears and gear differ and could greatly alter the trajectory of how you experience a tube....there is gear out there that makes GE tubes sound like a premium Amperex apparently.   LOL.  Unfortunately that is not the case with my setup.   But this is the adventure of tube rolling!


I have a Marconi side getter (made by GE) that was gifted to me, that on first listen surprised me, sounded (dare I say) decent. I almost sent it to Bill as a gag gift..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have a Marconi side getter (made by GE) that was gifted to me, that on first listen surprised me, sounded (dare I say) decent. I almost sent it to Bill as a gag gift..


So in other words, it _didn't_ suck?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So in other words, it _didn't_ suck?


I was supposed to pass it on to you..    or I was dared too...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was supposed to pass it on to you..    or I was dared too...


Glad you didn't waste the money on shipping.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

This weeks combo...


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> But still GE tubes will always be there 😆😆


Wallowing in, not rising from, the ashes....


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> I almost sent it to Bill as a gag gift..


As a prank or to make Bill gag?...


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I have a Marconi side getter (made by GE) that was gifted to me, that on first listen surprised me, sounded (dare I say) decent. I almost sent it to Bill as a gag gift..


Well here's a legit question for you on this Marconi GE.   Does it sound better on the Darkvoice or the Incubus?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Well here's a legit question for you on this Marconi GE.   Does it sound better on the Darkvoice or the Incubus?


Stay tuned ....


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Well here's a legit question for you on this Marconi GE.   Does it sound better on the Darkvoice or the Incubus?


My guess is it would probably sound better in a 1960's television set.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> So in other words, it _didn't_ suck?


It blew


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I have a Marconi side getter (made by GE) that was gifted to me, that on first listen surprised me, sounded (dare I say) decent. I almost sent it to Bill as a gag gift..


I have the Canadian version of the Marconi but didn't find it impressive, I probably should give it a 2nd chance


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> So in other words, it _didn't_ suck?


Suck as in GE suck ????


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> I have the Canadian version of the Marconi but didn't find it impressive, I probably should give it a 2nd chance


I believe all Marconi's are Canadian.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I was supposed to pass it on to you..    or I was dared too...


I have an idea about the anonymous puppeteer 😛😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Glad you didn't waste the money on shipping.  LOL!


That bad 🤣🤣🤣
So will let go the idea of a 2nd chance


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Wallowing in, not rising from, the ashes....


Too late to rise, would take a miracle and the GE is a far cry from a Phoenix


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Well here's a legit question for you on this Marconi GE.   Does it sound better on the Darkvoice or the Incubus?


I can say on the DV it was not any different from the Chinese stock one


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Stay tuned ....


Would be interesting to know, we are tuned


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> My guess is it would probably sound better in a 1960's television set.


it definitely contributed in the static 😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I believe all Marconi's are Canadian.


Thought some were done in the US in the GE factory


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Thought some were done in the US in the GE factory


Well, there's Italian Marconi and "North American" Marconi (US or Canadian).  With the 6SN7 first being introduced in 1939, it's possible that _any_ Canadian-labeled Marconi 6SN7 was made by GE.   

https://blog.minicircuits.com/moments-in-radio-history-the-legacy-of-guglielmo-marconi/


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well, there's Italian Marconi and "North American" Marconi (US or Canadian).  With the 6SN7 first being introduced in 1939, it's possible that _any_ Canadian-labeled Marconi 6SN7 was made by GE.
> 
> https://blog.minicircuits.com/moments-in-radio-history-the-legacy-of-guglielmo-marconi/


Interesting blog, you're the expert 👌 I will re-check mine though if you think it's worth the trial


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Interesting blog, you're the expert 👌 I will re-check mine though if you think it's worth the trial


I'm no expert...I only play one on TV (1960's vintage).    

Be interesting to know if there's any etching on the glass on your tube.  I don't think GE etched the 'dots' from the beginning (not sure when they started with that), but if yours _does_ have etched dots it's definitely a GE.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm no expert...I only play one on TV (1960's vintage).
> 
> Be interesting to know if there's any etching on the glass on your tube.  I don't think GE etched the 'dots' from the beginning (not sure when they started with that), but if yours _does_ have etched dots it's definitely a GE.


Wait for the photo 🤷‍♂️


----------



## HTSkywalker

The Marconi


----------



## HTSkywalker

This Philco is not bad


----------



## therremans

There’s GEC osram, which was British and the Italian Marconi brand was soon was bought out by GE. I don’t think Marconi never produced tubes. So the euro Marconi tubes may have been made by Mullard and Canadian Marconi either GE, RCA (Radiotron) or sometimes others like Westinghouse. (I didn’t verify this information.) I’ll attach those 6J5Gs that I own which are stamped “Made in Canada” with the RCA octagon badge. I don’t own any regular RCA 6J5Gs to compare but I always thought these sounded nice and i’ve learned are quite rare.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 6, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I have an idea about the anonymous puppeteer 😛😛





HTSkywalker said:


> The Marconi


That's not a GE.. most likely Sylvania. The one I have is a GE... and sounds like a GE.. bleak, stale, anemic, and lifeless. I was halfway into the comparisons and thought..OMG... . The casual user "might" appreciate this tube.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> That's not a GE.. most likely Sylvania. The one I have is a GE... and sounds like a GE.. bleak, stale, anemic, and lifeless. I was halfway into the comparisons and thought..OMG... . The casual user "might" appreciate this tube.


Definitely not a GE or would have made its way to where the stock Chinese tube is resting 😜


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Definitely not a GE or would have made its way to where the stock Chinese tube is resting 😜


What year is that Marconi's?


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> What year is that Marconi's?


Erased


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Erased


Looks like a Bad Boy


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Looks like a Bad Boy


Sounds like a good one though 😀


----------



## Deceneu808

Question. Is there a drop in replacement volume pot for the DV ? The Alps I got a few months ago besides being bigger in size and let's say I drill a bigger hole and all of that, it doesn't slide the volume up and down. It's just maxed out. Maybe I did something wrong but I'm looking to change it soon. I don't want it to sit and gather dust and not be used. I'm looking for options


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Question. Is there a drop in replacement volume pot for the DV ? The Alps I got a few months ago besides being bigger in size and let's say I drill a bigger hole and all of that, it doesn't slide the volume up and down. It's just maxed out. Maybe I did something wrong but I'm looking to change it soon. I don't want it to sit and gather dust and not be used. I'm looking for options


Most likely you did something wrong. And no drop in replacements.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Question. Is there a drop in replacement volume pot for the DV ? The Alps I got a few months ago besides being bigger in size and let's say I drill a bigger hole and all of that, it doesn't slide the volume up and down. It's just maxed out. Maybe I did something wrong but I'm looking to change it soon. I don't want it to sit and gather dust and not be used. I'm looking for options


The 20K Alps I put in mine works just fine, and a pretty nice upgrade over the stock pot.  The chassis hole _does_ have to be drilled out larger and I cut off the locator pin on the front of the pot so I didn't have to remove the faceplate to drill a hole for it, but beyond that it was not difficult to swap out.


----------



## maketus

i have 2 shuguang 6n5pj tubes , and one 6N5F  what is that F tube


----------



## JKDJedi

maketus said:


> i have 2 shuguang 6n5pj tubes , and one 6N5F  what is that F tube


Mostly garbage... Get a 6N13s instead..


----------



## maketus

I already have one 6n13s  58s. i just fondering what is f. sounds much different than pj


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jun 10, 2021)

So the I got the DV up and running. I redid all the wiring and soldering and the Alps 50 works perfectly. The only issue I have right now is that I get a high pitched background noise. Did I not ground it good enough ? The RCA, pot & headphone jack are all grounded. I did not ground the wires coming from the 6sn7 socket. Would that cause my issue ? It's not audible when playing music so there's that. It could also be the tube I'm using humming like crazy and will go away in a few days but the noise completely goes away if I unplug the RCA's in the back. Any suggestions ?

Edit : Noise here https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPDBm2vejzzTZcnH6






Edit 2 : Do I need to connect these together (yellow drawing) so the loop is complete ? Sorry for the noob questions


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> So the I got the DV up and running. I redid all the wiring and soldering and the Alps 50 works perfectly. The only issue I have right now is that I get a high pitched background noise. Did I not ground it good enough ? The RCA, pot & headphone jack are all grounded. I did not ground the wires coming from the 6sn7 socket. Would that cause my issue ? It's not audible when playing music so there's that. It could also be the tube I'm using humming like crazy and will go away in a few days but the noise completely goes away if I unplug the RCA's in the back. Any suggestions ?
> 
> Edit : Noise here https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPDBm2vejzzTZcnH6
> 
> ...


I see you have the Feliks Elise an you still got the DV !!!! does the DV give any value added ?
As I have the DV and thinking of getting the Elise myself


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jun 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I see you have the Feliks Elise an you still got the DV !!!! does the DV give any value added ?
> As I have the DV and thinking of getting the Elise myself


I have a few spare single tubes and don't want to give up on them as well as the DV. It holds a very special place on my desk as it was my first tube amp. The Elise on the other hand is the Darkvoice on steroids. I'm keeping both. I see nothing wrong with have a few tube amps lol. It's all about different flavors, different tubes etc. I actually like the HD600 more on the DV for example. They sound more all over the place and distorted but in a good way that makes me enjoy some tracks more. Elise is cleaner and more polite but still has that tube sound whatever that is...It's hard to describe


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> I see nothing wrong with having a few tube amps lol


I like that and have broadened it: I now have four headphone amplifiers: tube otl (Woo WA3), tube otc (Woo WA6), tube/ss hybrid (Schiit Moljnir II cap-mod), ss 🤫 (Violectric V280: at least it is not ‘sterile’). Variety IS the spice of life...sometimes tube roll...sometimes amp roll...


----------



## Galapac (Jun 10, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I like that and have broadened it: I now have four headphone amplifiers: tube otl (Woo WA3), tube otc (Woo WA6), tube/ss hybrid (Schiit Moljnir II cap-mod), ss 🤫 (Violectric V280: at least it is not ‘sterile’). Variety IS the spice of life...sometimes tube roll...sometimes amp roll...


Tu-be or not Tu-be....that is the amplification!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Tu-be or not Tu-be....that's is the amplification!


In fact I started with the Violectric followed by the Cavalli Hybrid followed by the DV and now eyeing the Elise and trying to get a Hartung too 😃😃😃
On the side just received this week a Yaqin cathode follower tube buffer with dual 6SN7


----------



## Melting735

I just purchased 4 ken rad vt231 black glass from eBay. They are used But tested strong. Unfortunately, 3 of them came with bad hum on my DV. Is it common issue with DV or this type of tubes? Worth any burn in or just return?


----------



## bcowen (Jun 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> So the I got the DV up and running. I redid all the wiring and soldering and the Alps 50 works perfectly. The only issue I have right now is that I get a high pitched background noise. Did I not ground it good enough ? The RCA, pot & headphone jack are all grounded. I did not ground the wires coming from the 6sn7 socket. Would that cause my issue ? It's not audible when playing music so there's that. It could also be the tube I'm using humming like crazy and will go away in a few days but the noise completely goes away if I unplug the RCA's in the back. Any suggestions ?
> 
> Edit : Noise here https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPDBm2vejzzTZcnH6
> 
> ...


Looking at the photo you posted, the "+" leads from the RCA jacks are connected to the Alps pins on the right.  The center pins are connected to the 6SN7 socket.  The "-" leads from the RCA's are connected to the pins on the left.  Those two same pins (with the negative leads from the RCA's) also need to be connected to ground. I used a small terminal lug to connect the ground wires from the pot (left pins), the negative lead from the HP jack, and the ground bus wire all together at one point.  The grid lugs (pins 1 and 4) on the 6SN7 socket where you attach the pot wires are *not* grounded directly (they go to ground only through the 1 megohm resistor that is attached to them).


----------



## JKDJedi

Melting735 said:


> I just purchased 4 ken rad vt231 black glass from eBay. They are used But tested strong. Unfortunately, 3 of them came with bad hum on my DV. Is it common issue with DV or this type of tubes? Worth any burn in or just return?


The heater voltage runs a little high (on the Darkvoice) so some burn in will help. What's your wall outlets (the outlet that the power cord of the Darkvoice is plugged into) output as far as total volts go?


----------



## Melting735

JKDJedi said:


> The heater voltage runs a little high (on the Darkvoice) so some burn in will help. What's your wall outlets (the outlet that the power cord of the Darkvoice is plugged into) output as far as total volts go?


I plug it into a WAudio w-3900 power conditioner plus surge protector. I removed the power tube and let ken rad burned for an day, no magic yet. I guess I will let it go up to 72hrs.

Did you mean that it's possibly caused by DV's high heater voltage. So another amp may not have such an issue?


----------



## therremans (Jun 10, 2021)

Melting735 said:


> I plug it into a WAudio w-3900 power conditioner plus surge protector. I removed the power tube and let ken rad burned for an day, no magic yet. I guess I will let it go up to 72hrs.
> 
> Did you mean that it's possibly caused by DV's high heater voltage. So another amp may not have such an issue?


It is more to do with your specific DV circuit causing the hum, it's a good chance they won't hum on another amp. However it would be nice to verify that. Sorry if I missed it previously, but is your amp un-modded?

Edit: I now notice you said 1 of 4 do not hum. I still think it’s the DV circuit. You could try to flow the solder in pins like suggested.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Melting735 said:


> I just purchased 4 ken rad vt231 black glass from eBay. They are used But tested strong. Unfortunately, 3 of them came with bad hum on my DV. Is it common issue with DV or this type of tubes? Worth any burn in or just return?


Give it a 24hr+ burn time, if still the humming persist you need to re-solder


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> The heater voltage runs a little high (on the Darkvoice) so some burn in will help. What's your wall outlets (the outlet that the power cord of the Darkvoice is plugged into) output as far as total volts go?


BTW 220V runs much quitter than the 110V


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> It is more to do with your specific DV circuit causing the hum, it's a good chance they won't hum on another amp. However it would be nice to verify that. Sorry if I missed it previously, but is your amp un-modded?
> 
> Edit: I now notice you said 1 of 4 do not hum. I still think it’s the DV circuit. You could try to flow the solder in pins like suggested.


True better try in another amp before re-soldering


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW 220V runs much quitter than the 110V


“quitter” !......_a propos_ to the usual out-of-box DV experience?.....


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> Looking at the photo you posted, the "+" leads from the RCA jacks are connected to the Alps pins on the right.  The center pins are connected to the 6SN7 socket.  The "-" leads from the RCA's are connected to the pins on the left.  Those two same pins (with the negative leads from the RCA's) also need to be connected to ground. I used a small terminal lug to connect the ground wires from the pot (left pins), the negative lead from the HP jack, and the ground bus wire all together at one point.  The grid lugs (pins 1 and 4) on the 6SN7 socket where you attach the pot wires are *not* grounded directly (they go to ground only through the 1 megohm resistor that is attached to them).


That's your photo. I used it as a reference when I changed the pot. I think I forgot to close the ground loop between the pins (where I drew the yellow lines). Will open up later this evening


----------



## JKDJedi

Melting735 said:


> I plug it into a WAudio w-3900 power conditioner plus surge protector. I removed the power tube and let ken rad burned for an day, no magic yet. I guess I will let it go up to 72hrs.
> 
> Did you mean that it's possibly caused by DV's high heater voltage. So another amp may not have such an issue?


If you could test the voltage coming out of the power conditioner, I'd be interested to know what that is. And mentioned already zapping the pins for a quick reflowing of the solder with a soldering iron could help. The big trouble shoot would be rolling all the Ken Rads on another amp if you have one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> “quitter” !......_a propos_ to the usual out-of-box DV experience?.....


True as the 220V version is the original product design on which the DV R&D team worked (I believe there should be such a team or department originally) 😃


----------



## Deceneu808

Still no luck with the DV, still high pitched noise in the background, it's less obvious if I use the 600 ohm beyers and the Elise as a pre amp but It's bugging me out


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Still no luck with the DV, still high pitched noise in the background, it's less obvious if I use the 600 ohm beyers and the Elise as a pre amp but It's bugging me out


Modding is a two edged sword...


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> Modding is a two edged sword...


Now the Noise transfered to the Elise haha. I now 100% believe it's a ground issue. Should one of those GND Defender from iFi make any difference or ... ?


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Now the Noise transfered to the Elise haha. I now 100% believe it's a ground issue. Should one of those GND Defender from iFi make any difference or ... ?


I can vouch for the iGalvanic....  Works. Blacker than Black can black a black background.. ,😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Still no luck with the DV, still high pitched noise in the background, it's less obvious if I use the 600 ohm beyers and the Elise as a pre amp but It's bugging me out


Try a power cable without a ground


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Try a power cable without a ground


That would be ? Insert link here


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> I can vouch for the iGalvanic....  Works. Blacker than Black can black a black background.. ,😎


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


>



😂😂😂😂😂😂 Loved that movie!! 😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Melting735

JKDJedi said:


> If you could test the voltage coming out of the power conditioner, I'd be interested to know what that is. And mentioned already zapping the pins for a quick reflowing of the solder with a soldering iron could help. The big trouble shoot would be rolling all the Ken Rads on another amp if you have one.


Unfortunately I just sold my Elise. Another amp using the same tubes will come after two months probably. I guess I will just let one tube burn for 72 hours and return all of them if no luck.

Not a handy man at all


----------



## JKDJedi

Melting735 said:


> Unfortunately I just sold my Elise. Another amp using the same tubes will come after two months probably. I guess I will just let one tube burn for 72 hours and return all of them if no luck.
> 
> Not a handy man at all


I was there 6 months ago ...now I'm testing tubes, soldering inside of amps, tubes and know how to use a digital voltage meter... 😏


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> That would be ? Insert link here


Try one of these, commonly known as a cheater plug.  Available at most hardware and home improvement stores as well.  If this doesn't fit the wall outlet configuration where you are, I'm sure they have 'cheaters' for your outlets that do the same thing.   Note that I would *not *recommend running the amp long term with one of these in place.  Use only on a testing basis to see if the noise goes away with the earth ground lifted (or disconnected).  If the whine goes away with the ground out of the picture, then at least you'll know for sure whether it's a grounding issue external to the amp and can diagnose further from there.

https://www.amazon.com/Cooper-BP419...&keywords=cheater+plug&qid=1623451931&sr=8-21

v


----------



## Melting735

So guys. The magic happenned at 44th hour. Now the ken rad tube has no more hum. I saw hope for the other two. Never give up easily


----------



## JKDJedi

Melting735 said:


> So guys. The magic happenned at 44th hour. Now the ken rad tube has no more hum. I saw hope for the other two. Never give up easily


----------



## HTSkywalker

Melting735 said:


> So guys. The magic happenned at 44th hour. Now the ken rad tube has no more hum. I saw hope for the other two. Never give up easily


See ! patience pays with tube burning 😃


----------



## qingcai

Deceneu808 said:


> So the I got the DV up and running. I redid all the wiring and soldering and the Alps 50 works perfectly. The only issue I have right now is that I get a high pitched background noise. Did I not ground it good enough ? The RCA, pot & headphone jack are all grounded. I did not ground the wires coming from the 6sn7 socket. Would that cause my issue ? It's not audible when playing music so there's that. It could also be the tube I'm using humming like crazy and will go away in a few days but the noise completely goes away if I unplug the RCA's in the back. Any suggestions ?
> 
> Edit : Noise here https://photos.app.goo.gl/NPDBm2vejzzTZcnH6
> 
> ...


the noise is not come this amp, switch sound source and rca cable.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Google needs to work on its translate platform 😂😂


----------



## iFi audio

JKDJedi said:


> I can vouch for the iGalvanic.... Works. Blacker than Black can black a black background.. ,😎



Its backdrop is so black it'll haunt you   



Deceneu808 said:


> Now the Noise transfered to the Elise haha. I now 100% believe it's a ground issue. Should one of those GND Defender from iFi make any difference or ... ?



... DC Blocker. Transformers buzz because of residual DC voltage.


----------



## Deceneu808

iFi audio said:


> Its backdrop is so black it'll haunt you
> 
> 
> 
> ... DC Blocker. Transformers buzz because of residual DC voltage.


Got one. No change at all.

Anybody want a busted DV ? Lol


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> Got one. No change at all.
> 
> Anybody want a *busted DV* Lol


Redundant?…


----------



## jonathan c

qingcai said:


> the noise is not come this amp, switch sound source and rca cable.


🤔❓


----------



## Deceneu808

jonathan c said:


> 🤔❓


I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol





Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol


Ship it to me.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol



Does the buzzing increase or not change with the volume increase via volpot?


----------



## Slade01

Completely unrelated - but cool profile pic @tubebuyer2020


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol


Are you sure it's not the tubes themselves causing the buzzing?  Sometimes I've had power tubes crapping out on me when they start buzzing.

Also crazy (non-sensical) voo-doo coincidence reasoning - have you tried running the DV away from all the other gears around you?  Not that it should be affected with all the super engineering and super shielded cables and such.  Still I've for damned reasons found other things that just inexplicably interfere when its in the vicinity.  This is probably a dumb idea but just one more thing to rule out before you send it to @JKDJedi the dying gears and tubes whisperer.  LOL


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jun 15, 2021)

@JKDJedi @tubebuyer2020 @Slade01

OK What the actual... I unplugged my keyboard and it went away. Some noise hum after 12 1 o clock but that's just the DV... What is this voodoo ? It works. It actually works lmao and sounds better than ever


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 15, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> @JKDJedi @tubebuyer2020 @Slade01
> 
> OK What the actual... I unplugged my keyboard and it went away. Some noise hum after 12 1 o clock but that's just the DV... What is this voodoo ? It works. It actually works lmao and sounds better than ever


While I do not own a DV, I definitely keep any laptop/personal computer/internet router/telephone charger away (let alone connected) from the hp listening system. I have those items plugged in to a different / isolated wall plug on a different circuit from that of the hp listening system. 🎶 ☺️


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


> @JKDJedi @tubebuyer2020 @Slade01
> 
> OK What the actual... I unplugged my keyboard and it went away. Some noise hum after 12 1 o clock but that's just the DV... What is this voodoo ? It works. It actually works lmao and sounds better than ever


Yeah right?!? Awesome.  Glad its working!


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jun 15, 2021)

Dirty USB was the last thing I would of thought of. The Elise started to develop the same buzz but way less quieter between 12 and 3 o clock so I thought ok, I'll change the rca cables one last time with some cheap basic ones to see what's what and I had a USB hub in the way. I unplugged the keyboard and all of a sudden, blackness... I've redid all my USBs and it's all clean and black right now. Sorry @JKDJedi . I would of sent it if the spirits didn't guide me on this one


----------



## Galapac

Deceneu808 said:


> Dirty USB was the last thing I would of thought of. The Elise started to develop the same buzz but way less quieter between 12 and 3 o clock so I thought ok, I'll change the rca cables one last time with some cheap basic ones to see what's what and I had a USB hub in the way. I unplugged the keyboard and all of a sudden, blackness... I've redid all my USBs and it all clean and black right now. Sorry @JKDJedi . I would of sent it if the spirits didn't guide me on this one


USB and hubs are notorious for clicking/buzzing sounds.

_From the internet so you know its true:   _
Sometimes this *symptom* can be the result of the *USB* port being used for audio sharing it's internal bus with a either device built into your computer (i.e. Keyboard or track-pad), or with another port that's being used with another device.


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> @JKDJedi @tubebuyer2020 @Slade01
> 
> OK What the actual... I unplugged my keyboard and it went away. Some noise hum after 12 1 o clock but that's just the DV... What is this voodoo ? It works. It actually works lmao and sounds better than ever


Good suggestion @Slade01 .... I nearly had a new Darkvoice! 😒


----------



## Deceneu808

Galapac said:


> USB and hubs are notorious for clicking/buzzing sounds.
> 
> _From the internet so you know its true:  _
> Sometimes this *symptom* can be the result of the *USB* port being used for audio sharing it's internal bus with a either device built into your computer (i.e. Keyboard or track-pad), or with another port that's being used with another device.


Never ever using a keyboard again. My life from now on :


----------



## iFi audio

Deceneu808 said:


> OK What the actual... I unplugged my keyboard and it went away. Some noise hum after 12 1 o clock but that's just the DV... What is this voodoo ? It works. It actually works lmao and sounds better than ever



A ground loop most likely. Nice you got it sorted, enjoy hum-free amp


----------



## SHIMACM

My Darkvoice is totally silent, but I was thinking here.

Looks like I'm the only one here who doesn't use Darkvoice with a computer.

I use Darkvoice connected to a MODI Multibit DAC and the DAC connected to my cell phone.

Darkvoice is by my bed.

Zero noise.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Good suggestion @Slade01 .... I nearly had a new Darkvoice! 😒



No worries bro.   After some parts come in, i'll be doing some basic mods on my DV.  I'll end up melting something, so i'll make it up to you if things go sideways.  LOL.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Slade01 said:


> Completely unrelated - but cool profile pic @tubebuyer2020



Thanks! I got it from here: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2012/08/tube-box-art-part-8-arcturus.html


----------



## Slade01

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Thanks! I got it from here: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2012/08/tube-box-art-part-8-arcturus.html



I always loved the Arcturus Box Art and logo.  I have some Arcturus tubes, but only with the boring plain box design (the very latter ones as pictured in that link).  But between the original box art and their blue globe tubes - really beautiful art/design as far as tubes go.


----------



## iFi audio

SHIMACM said:


> My Darkvoice is totally silent, but I was thinking here.
> 
> Looks like I'm the only one here who doesn't use Darkvoice with a computer.
> 
> ...



Although a PC or laptop shouldn't be an issue, they tend to cause problems. Luckily these issues are easily fixable in most cases.

Or your bed perhaps has some magic abilities to keep noise away


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 16, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> I've tried Zen DAC, RME DAC, ifi RCA cables, QED performance graphite series cables, preamping it with the Elise... It still buzzes like crazy. I'm willing to give it for free just to get it out of my house lol


Unplug the DV and take it away from all your gear and just plug in your phone with its stock tubes and start from there.
Always a good scenario when things go south with any electronic appliance.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> While I do not own a DV, I definitely keep any laptop/personal computer/internet router/telephone charger away (let alone connected) from the hp listening system. I have those items plugged in to a different / isolated wall plug on a different circuit from that of the hp listening system. 🎶 ☺️


I believe shielded RCA cables would help a lot in electronically jammed setups and even better balanced cables where applicable.


----------



## qingcai

HTSkywalker said:


> Google needs to work on its translate platform 😂😂


no idea how can you laugh,  proud of you can speak one language ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

qingcai said:


> no idea how can you laugh,  proud of you can speak one language ?


Another pitfall of a new comer!
We are all here in goodwill to help and assist each other, we joke and exchange ideas and make fun of Google (unless you are related somehow to Larry Page) or any other funny thing we come across. No need to be offensive as this is a music related platform. Show some respect and FYI "proud of me can speak 6 languages"


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> 🤔❓


And how come you were spared ??? 🤩🤩🤩


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Another pitfall of a new comer!
> We are all here in goodwill to help and assist each other, we joke and exchange ideas and make fun of Google (unless you are related somehow to Larry Page) or any other funny thing we come across. No need to be offensive as this is a music related platform. Show some respect and FYI "proud of me can speak 6 languages"


Yeah I didn't see nothing wrong with the fun towards Google ... I mean it's Google...they can take a joke. 😏


----------



## iFi audio

HTSkywalker said:


> Unplug the DV and take it away from all your gear and just plug in your phone with its stock tubes and start from there.



That's where I would start. Seeing how the product behaves on its own (without anything else connected but a power cord) would be my first stop.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> And how come you were spared ??? 🤩🤩🤩


…something got lost in the vision?…


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Unplug the DV and take it away…


----------



## tubebuyer2020

iFi audio said:


> That's where I would start. Seeing how the product behaves on its own (without anything else connected but a power cord) would be my first stop.



Maybe not the best place to ask, but since you are already here : I am using and iDefender with an iPower which helped me getting rid of a very obvious noise in the USB-powered Khadas board (thank you!), but why do I need to unplug and plug the Khadas back into the iDefender every time I turn my PC on (otherwise the sound is barely coming through)?


----------



## JKDJedi

https://tidal.com/browse/track/4237131 Terrorist's In The City.. (you have to be at a special place before listening)

That kind of morning...no wait...it's the afternoon!?   Zenith with the GEC


----------



## Deceneu808

At it again


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> At it again


Nice combo: Heineken + soldering iron…


----------



## Deceneu808

All done. I've cut the line outs. Replaced the RCA wire and redid the soldering on the pot. Noise is gone. Although I feel as if the power output dropped. Doesn't get as loud as it did before. Any ideas why ?


----------



## sam6550a

Deceneu808 said:


> All done. I've cut the line outs. Replaced the RCA wire and redid the soldering on the pot. Noise is gone. Although I feel as if the power output dropped. Doesn't get as loud as it did before. Any ideas why ?


Too much Heineken?


----------



## Deceneu808

sam6550a said:


> Too much Heineken?


Nope. Not even mine. It's a common court yard/garden. People keep dropping by our tent unannounced...smh


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> All done. I've cut the line outs. Replaced the RCA wire and redid the soldering on the pot. Noise is gone. Although I feel as if the power output dropped. Doesn't get as loud as it did before. Any ideas why ?


Nice job. Explain more of the output drop that you are experiencing, such as always maxing out the volume or you feel it’s not as dynamic or is lifeless, etc.

The alps will of course give you a more smooth sweep. So on a quiet track, you may actually be near max volume but ideally 75% is plenty loud enough with music that has been properly mixed. Also, the resistances should be more accurate between channels at higher volumes.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Nice job. Explain more of the output drop that you are experiencing, such as always maxing out the volume or you feel it’s not as dynamic or is lifeless, etc.
> 
> The alps will of course give you a more smooth sweep. So on a quiet track, you may actually be near max volume but ideally 75% is plenty loud enough with music that has been properly mixed. Also, the resistances should be more accurate between channels at higher volumes.


Just overall output power, volume, etc. Still dynamic, cleaner but before this I had a pretty poor soldering job and a very high noise floor. Buzz after 12 o clock but 11 was a good listening volume. Now I have to max out for the same pressure level. I'll debug tomorrow. Guests have arrived.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> At it again


Geeez....didn't you *just* get it working again?  If it's not broken, break it?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> At it again


OMG Just saw the Heineken can, you will never make it with this pot.
Try it once you're sober and am sure it will work 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> All done. I've cut the line outs. Replaced the RCA wire and redid the soldering on the pot. Noise is gone. Although I feel as if the power output dropped. Doesn't get as loud as it did before. Any ideas why ?


Sure the beer can 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Nope. Not even mine. It's a common court yard/garden. People keep dropping by our tent unannounced...smh


In this case someone dropped by smoking something strange 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Just overall output power, volume, etc. Still dynamic, cleaner but before this I had a pretty poor soldering job and a very high noise floor. Buzz after 12 o clock but 11 was a good listening volume. Now I have to max out for the same pressure level. I'll debug tomorrow. Guests have arrived.


You can live with it knowing that finally you have upgraded to an ALPS pot, something have to give.


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> You can live with it knowing that finally you have upgraded to an ALPS pot, something have to give.


I'm very happy how it turned out. Silent background. That was why I opened it up the 3rd time. Keep in mind I had no idea what I was doing the first time. Second time kind of got the grip on it and yesterday all went smooth. I'll just slap a 7236 in there for extra gain


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I'm very happy how it turned out. Silent background. That was why I opened it up the 3rd time. Keep in mind I had no idea what I was doing the first time. Second time kind of got the grip on it and yesterday all went smooth. I'll just slap a 7236 in there for extra gain


It's a learning curve and am happy you are enjoying it, maybe even build a BHC if you are enjoying the build 👍


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> It's a learning curve and am happy you are enjoying it, maybe even build a BHC if you are enjoying the build 👍


I can't stop thinking about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the BHC can take 6SN7s with adapter, right ?


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Nice job. Explain more of the output drop that you are experiencing, such as always maxing out the volume or you feel it’s not as dynamic or is lifeless, etc.
> 
> The alps will of course give you a more smooth sweep. So on a quiet track, you may actually be near max volume but ideally 75% is plenty loud enough with music that has been properly mixed. Also, the resistances should be more accurate between channels at higher volumes.


Ok so bad jack connection. I've straightened the pins inside and sprayed some WD 40 lol and it works now. Full steam. Changing the pot to Alps 50K, replacing the RCA cable, new wires, thicker wires from the 6SN7 socket & grounding everything properly... It's a different amplifier. I can't believe what I'm hearing. Dark sounding, no pun intended, compared to the Elise but the Beyerdynamics love it right now


----------



## Deceneu808

I want to buy another power tube for the DV. I'm between a TS 5998 and a Cetron 7236. I'll be using it with a CBS 5692. What should I go with ? I'm looking after a comparison between the two


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Geeez....didn't you *just* get it working again?  If it's not broken, break it?


I stil lahvn't gone allin with that volume


Deceneu808 said:


> I want to buy another power tube for the DV. I'm between a TS 5998 and a Cetron 7236. I'll be using it with a CBS 5692. What should I go with ? I'm looking after a comparison between the two


5998... no question about it .just get it


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> 5998... no question about it .just get it


Thought so


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I can't stop thinking about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the BHC can take 6SN7s with adapter, right ?


Affirmative, Yes it can with an adapter 👍👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I want to buy another power tube for the DV. I'm between a TS 5998 and a Cetron 7236. I'll be using it with a CBS 5692. What should I go with ? I'm looking after a comparison between the two


Tung Sol all the way, it's a no brainer. where were you able to find it ?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 5998... no question about it .just get it


Yup, totally agree.  The Cetron 7236 has some nice qualities in some areas, but the 5998 is a better performer in almost every regard (IMO).


----------



## Tom-s

Deceneu808 said:


> I can't stop thinking about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the BHC can take 6SN7s with adapter, right ?



It's possible to build it with 6SN7's from the start. For a first timer build i wouldn't recommend this. As this would void any warranty from the start. And has the risk of destroying the top plate in the process.

Here's a sample build with 6SN7 as driver tube. I've done several and like the 6SN7 tube a lot in this position.


----------



## Deceneu808

Like Cuban cigars


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Like Cuban cigars


Happy with the glow, Wait until it starts smoking 😄😄😄


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Happy with the glow, Wait until it starts smoking 😄😄😄


Not allowed inside the house


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Not allowed inside the house


Not sure it's an option with the DV not smoking at some point 🤣🤣


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure it's an option with the DV not smoking at some point 🤣🤣


I'll just move it outside then. Let it smoke under the sun at least. I'll have the fire hose ready


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> I'll just move it outside then. Let it smoke under the sun at least. I'll have the fire hose ready


Just kidding, I believe the DV has been refined over a period of years and most incidents are related to the 110V version.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 29, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure it's an option with the DV not smoking at some point 🤣🤣


Tell me about it..


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Like Cuban cigars


Just noticed your sig...which cans (headphones) do you enjoy (gets the most use) with the Darkvoice?


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> Just noticed your sig...which cans (headphones) do you enjoy (gets the most use) with the Darkvoice?


HD600 are my fav by far on the DV


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> HD600 are my fav by far on the DV



I still have to test this phone on my Darkvoice.

I already had the HD600, but at the time I had a Little Dot MK IV, way inferior to Darkvoice.

I have to test an HD650 too.

So far I've only used the T1 on it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> I still have to test this phone on my Darkvoice.
> 
> I already had the HD600, but at the time I had a Little Dot MK IV, way inferior to Darkvoice.
> 
> ...


Am using the Elear on it with wonderful results although it's 80Ohms but @Paladin79 also enjoys his 80Ohms Utopia on most of his tube amps


----------



## Slade01

Am trying to open up the DV to do a mod or 2.   Is there anything else holding down the bottom panel aside from the 6 screws?  I can't seem to get it off, and I don't want to force it -- or will if there really isn't anything else holding it to the body.   Thanks.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Am trying to open up the DV to do a mod or 2.   Is there anything else holding down the bottom panel aside from the 6 screws?  I can't seem to get it off, and I don't want to force it -- or will if there really isn't anything else holding it to the body.   Thanks.


I count 8 screws, three on each end and two in the middle.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I count 8 screws, three on each end and two in the middle.


lol.  I just figured that out.  i guess they are (in chinese) warranty void stickers or something cover the two middle screws. because the only mandarin i know is the oranges and not the language...

thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> lol.  I just figured that out.  i guess they are (in chinese) warranty void stickers or something cover the two middle screws. because the only mandarin i know is the oranges and not the language...
> 
> thanks!


NP you have probably just successfully voided the warranty lol.


----------



## Slade01

Interesting thing I am finding so far - cutting the preamp out mod.  Allegedly people gain such  traits as more details, clarity, etc.  Because my darkvoice comes from bizzaro world, its the opposite.  What I ended up gaining is alot more bass.  Bass range suddenly elevated.  I mean everything is super punchy, and strong and bassy.  As a result, I've lost some of those details and clarity.  Adjustments to my dac (going to NOS/Sharp Filter or OS Slow or Sharp) kind of boosted back those details and clarity.  So all in all, it's an interesting result for me with a single wire cut.

Oh and heed the warnings well with draining the capacitors.  My oversight on this resulted in me melting one of the caps i was trying to solder in place.  Fortunately, the amp still works, and it doesnt look any worse for the wear, but it quickly ended my attempt the fitz mod. Lol.  Good times.


----------



## Galapac

Will this be the Dark Voice 336i killer?

https://www.xduoo.net/product/ta-26/


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> Will this be the Dark Voice 336i killer?
> 
> https://www.xduoo.net/product/ta-26/


no


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> no


Well that was informative. 
Why do you say no?
It uses the same tubes as 336i but not sure what is inside yet as it is new and I haven't seen any reviews yet.

*Technical Specifications:*
>Frequency Range: 10Hz~30kHz.
>Gain: +16dB.
>SNR: 110dB.
>THD+N: 0.1%.
>Suitable Headphone Impedance: 60 ohm~600 ohm.
>Output Power: 500mW(600/300ohm load).
>Power Supply: AC100~120V/220~240V.
>Size: 25x11x16cm (9.84"x4.3"x6.29").
>Weight: 3.9Kg(8.6Lbs).


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 13, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Well that was informative.
> Why do you say no?
> It uses the same tubes as 336i but not sure what is inside yet as it is new and I haven't seen any reviews yet.
> 
> ...


it's $100 more and butt ugly ...lol .. looks about the same specs as the Darkvoice.. but killer...No. Well anything is Technically a Darkvoice killer... it just has a huge fan base for it's low entry of fun( and price).


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> it's $100 more and butt ugly ...lol .. looks about the same specs as the Darkvoice.. but killer...No. Well anything is Technically a Darkvoice killer... it just has a huge fan base for it's low entry of fun( and price).


I dunno about butt ugly - I kind of like the design (cept for the high faceplate). As far as price, you'll also have to factor in the cost of modding the DV to meets its potential. We'll have to see if the ta-26 works OOTB.
Xduoo has been pretty spare about the inner workings of their hardware however. I was looking into their hybrids, but nothing about plate voltages or heater currents (I absolutely don't want to be limited to rolling only the stock types of tubes - I already have an amp that can only do 6dj8 or 12au7 and nothing more)


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> I dunno about butt ugly - I kind of like the design (cept for the high faceplate). As far as price, you'll also have to factor in the cost of modding the DV to meets its potential. We'll have to see if the ta-26 works OOTB.
> Xduoo has been pretty spare about the inner workings of their hardware however. I was looking into their hybrids, but nothing about plate voltages or heater currents (I absolutely don't want to be limited to rolling only the stock types of tubes - I already have an amp that can only do 6dj8 or 12au7 and nothing more)


Darkvoice isn't that bad stock, the mods just squeeze's out more. As for this amp your talking about, first I've heard of it, sure its a good entry level amp the same, and it seems like your ready to grab this guy, give us your thoughts on the it please.


----------



## Galapac

Yeah same here. 
If anyone picks up this TA-26 give us some feedback on it. I'm going to be a wait and see on this one.

XDuoo is putting out some interesting amps lately and I do have the TA-30, but it is an entirely different hybrid amp with a DAC that I use for streaming and I have to say that amp sounds damn good but it is a bit higher price tag.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Looks like a good contender but we should wait till someone try it out and check the internal components as the moto "professional resistances and capacitors" as advertised does not mean much in the Chinese language. Am waiting for the Hartung company to finish their move to the new headquarters so they can ship products again as am eyeing 1 of their amps.
Besides having a pre-amp section while using the same tubes as the DV definitely means they are targeting the DV.


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> Darkvoice isn't that bad stock, the mods just squeeze's out more. As for this amp your talking about, first I've heard of it, sure its a good entry level amp the same, and it seems like your ready to grab this guy, give us your thoughts on the it please.


With my current crop of phones, I'd be better off holding out for something tranny coupled - occurred to me "tranny coupled" probably isn't a phrase to google at work.
Low z and planars is all I have


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Looks like a good contender but we should wait till someone try it out and check the internal components as the moto "professional resistances and capacitors" as advertised does not mean much in the Chinese language. Am waiting for the Hartung company to finish their move to the new headquarters so they can ship products again as am eyeing 1 of their amps.
> Besides having a pre-amp section while using the same tubes as the DV definitely means they are targeting the DV.


I am saving up for a Feliks Audio Euphoria for the same reasons, it uses the same tubes as DV and some of my La Figaro, which is attractive since I don’t want to go through all of the tube rolling process again and I have all of the tubes I want now for the rest of my life.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I am saving up for a Feliks Audio Euphoria for the same reasons, it uses the same tubes as DV and some of my La Figaro, which is attractive since I don’t want to go through all of the tube rolling process again and I have all of the tubes I want now for the rest of my life.


Feliks is on my radar screen as well and I believe the tubes used in the DV are the best ( I mean the 6SN7 series and the 5998/6AS7/6080)


----------



## Slade01

On tube rolling - I know this has been covered extensively, but i'm (finally) listening to a 59 Melz 1578.  And 30 seconds in, I realize this is one of the best sounding tubes I've listened to, if not the best.  I could probably end my 6SN7 tube journey right here.   It is really a sublime tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> On tube rolling - I know this has been covered extensively, but i'm (finally) listening to a 59 Melz 1578.  And 30 seconds in, I realize this is one of the best sounding tubes I've listened to, if not the best.  I could probably end my 6SN7 tube journey right here.   It is really a sublime tube.



I have this Melz 59. It's really wonderful. I'm also 69 which is also wonderful.

The best combination I got with the Melz 59 was with my Chatham 6080 graphite plates.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> On tube rolling - I know this has been covered extensively, but i'm (finally) listening to a 59 Melz 1578.  And 30 seconds in, I realize this is one of the best sounding tubes I've listened to, if not the best.  I could probably end my 6SN7 tube journey right here.   It is really a sublime tube.


I need to sell mine and buy another .


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I need to sell mine and buy another .


Why? What do you mean?  I remember you acquired one some time ago.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Why? What do you mean?  I remember you acquired one some time ago.


I didn’t share the same sentiment but I always had the feeling that mine wasn’t a good representative.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 18, 2021)

therremans said:


> I didn’t share the same sentiment but I always had the feeling that mine wasn’t a good representative.


Did that with a couple Bad Boys and had a half dozen 6080 graphited tubes (ok 4 of them, or was it 5..  ..but half dozen sounds better   ) ..none we're the same and some faired way better.. keep searching, follow your heart.

(Red labeled Bendix slotted is what you want)


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Did that with a couple Bad Boys and had a half dozen 6080 graphited tubes (ok 4 of them, or was it 5..  ..but half dozen sounds better   ) ..none we're the same and some faired way better.. keep searching, follow your heart.
> 
> (Red labeled Bendix slotted is what you want)



Are you peddling that unobtanium again?  

I'm currently rolling '57 Fotons right now with the Russian Tube Tour.  Color me impressed for the price.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I need to sell mine and buy another .



Well I'd hang on to it - maybe it would be better in another amp or something.  All I know is that finding a Melz 1578 in that year range is extremely rare these days.  Or yeah, you will end up selling it for top dollar.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Well I'd hang on to it - maybe it would be better in another amp or something.  All I know is that finding a Melz 1578 in that year range is extremely rare these days.  Or yeah, you will end up selling it for top dollar.


I have an idea where all those Melz went 🙊🙊


----------



## Slade01

I'm going to throw this question out here just for kicks.  Has anyone rolled a newer Melz 1578 (e.g. 1979-1980) and knows how it compares to their older versions (50s-60s)?

And more so, has anyone every found any tube that was newer to beat out their older counterparts?   Usually the general consensus is that the older tubes are better and have better magic-mojo.  Has there every been a NOS type tube to buck this trend in your experience?


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> I'm going to throw this question out here just for kicks.  Has anyone rolled a newer Melz 1578 (e.g. 1979-1980) and knows how it compares to their older versions (50s-60s)?
> 
> And more so, has anyone every found any tube that was newer to beat out their older counterparts?   Usually the general consensus is that the older tubes are better and have better magic-mojo.  Has there every been a NOS type tube to buck this trend in your experience?


Good question. I've always heard the older the better…


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I'm going to throw this question out here just for kicks.  Has anyone rolled a newer Melz 1578 (e.g. 1979-1980) and knows how it compares to their older versions (50s-60s)?
> 
> And more so, has anyone every found any tube that was newer to beat out their older counterparts?   Usually the general consensus is that the older tubes are better and have better magic-mojo.  Has there every been a NOS type tube to buck this trend in your experience?


Think you meant has there ever been a NEW type tube to buck this trend .. maybe, not likely. And tubes back then were made when gas was 25cents a gallon. So copper wiring galore. 😁


----------



## Mr Trev

I'd guess one example that comes to the top of my head…
I currently have a Amperex orange globe 6dj8 (late 60s vintage) that I really like. Everybody tells me the older "bugle boys" are much better. Same for Telefunkens.
Don't think I've ever heard anybody say "screw the 50's models… the 70 version kicks ass!"


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Think you meant has there ever been a NEW type tube to buck this trend .. maybe, not likely. And tubes back then were made when gas was 25cents a gallon. So copper wiring galore. 😁


Well, i'm trying to keep it Apples to Apples comparison.  So as far as NOS tubes go.   LOL.  I know new production tubes like PSVANE will hold their own, and EH/New-Sensor are hit or mess miss depending. LOL


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> I'd guess one example that comes to the top of my head…
> I currently have a Amperex orange globe 6dj8 (late 60s vintage) that I really like. Everybody tells me the older "bugle boys" are much better. Same for Telefunkens.


6DJ8s - its funny if they tell you that older bugle boys are that much better insofar that they were developed in the very late 50s, so it's got a shorter age span.  Though i'm sure the differences in construction among the brands become a big differentiator.    When I used to roll 6DJ8/6922, while there were differences between the orange globe, bugle boy, and PQ types - nothing super huge in terms of SQ differences to me.



Mr Trev said:


> Don't think I've ever heard anybody say "screw the 50's models… the 70 version kicks ass!"


Me neither.  99% of the time "30s-early 50s" top "late 50s-80s" as far as most everything i've read for comparisons.   I can understand this though as manufacturing and demand over time changes.  Now, one of the tubes that nearly continues the similar quality throughout its lifecycle course to me is the Tung-Sol to Cetron 7236.  I couldn't tell the difference between the two albeit the tube being a power tube for the DV.


----------



## Mr Trev

Off-topic post o the day: @bcowen spotted shopping at Walmart.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Off-topic post o the day: @bcowen spotted shopping at Walmart.


What happened to his cardboard Carolina blue Mazda?…


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> 6DJ8s - its funny if they tell you that older bugle boys are that much better insofar that they were developed in the very late 50s, so it's got a shorter age span.  Though i'm sure the differences in construction among the brands become a big differentiator.    When I used to roll 6DJ8/6922, while there were differences between the orange globe, bugle boy, and PQ types - nothing super huge in terms of SQ differences to me.
> 
> 
> Me neither.  99% of the time "30s-early 50s" top "late 50s-80s" as far as most everything i've read for comparisons.   I can understand this though as manufacturing and demand over time changes.  Now, one of the tubes that nearly continues the similar quality throughout its lifecycle course to me is the Tung-Sol to Cetron 7236.  I couldn't tell the difference between the two albeit the tube being a power tube for the DV.





Mr Trev said:


> Off-topic post o the day: @bcowen spotted shopping at Walmart.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen (Jul 29, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Off-topic post o the day: @bcowen spotted shopping at Walmart.


ROFL!  Very fitting that was spotted at Wal Mart.   

The RX-8 is fun because it handles so well with the small and (comparatively) lightweight engine mounted very low in the chassis. It has satisfying acceleration, but isn't a speedster or even what I'd consider to be a "fast" car in that regard.  Kill the handling and you've killed its entire character and purpose.  I'm guessing a dump truck handles better than that abomination.  Or a minivan.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Very fitting that was spotted at Wal Mart.
> 
> The RX-8 is fun because it handles so well with the small and (comparatively) lightweight engine mounted very low in the chassis. It has satisfying acceleration, but isn't a speedster or even what I'd consider to be a "fast" car in that regard.  Kill the handling and you've killed its entire character and purpose.  I'm guessing a dump truck handles better than that abomination.  Or a minivan.


A school friend had a new RX-8. The triangle blew at about 35k.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Very fitting that was spotted at Wal Mart.
> 
> The RX-8 is fun because it handles so well with the small and (comparatively) lightweight engine mounted very low in the chassis. It has satisfying acceleration, but isn't a speedster or even what I'd consider to be a "fast" car in that regard.  Kill the handling and you've killed its entire character and purpose.  I'm guessing a dump truck handles better than that abomination.  Or a minivan.


I always thought it was a bit of a head-scratcher that Mazda never stuffed the rotary into a Miata


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> I always thought it was a bit of a head-scratcher that Mazda never stuffed the rotary into a Miata


While they are a blast to drive - its not consumer friendly with the extremely poor emissions and fuel economy and difficult maintenance.  Though I think they conversion kits that you could put a 13b into a Miata.  I think the challenge was always with the required chassis mods needed to put it in.  

But yeah - they are super awesome to drive.  I had the opportunity to drive (a mechanic/friend's)  RX-7 FD years ago, and it was one of the best driving experiences I've had.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Well, i'm trying to keep it Apples to Apples comparison.  So as far as NOS tubes go.   LOL.  I know new production tubes like PSVANE will hold their own, and EH/New-Sensor are hit or mess miss depending. LOL


In fact out of all new production tubes, probably the PSVANE are the only tubes which are worth considering compared to NOS


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Off-topic post o the day: @bcowen spotted shopping at Walmart.


Is that the Mazda on Steroid ???? 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> I always thought it was a bit of a head-scratcher that Mazda never stuffed the rotary into a Miata


Yeah, only 1 model I believe they produced with a rotary engine and they stopped after coz of maintenance cost. Probably @bcowen have this model somewhere in his backyard 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Strange thing that @bcowen Mazda is being discussed without @Paladin79 commenting, probably on a Melz open season in mother Russia 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Strange thing that @bcowen Mazda is being discussed without @Paladin79 commenting, probably on a Melz open season in mother Russia 🤣🤣🤣


Lol I drive a CX5 and gave my son a red RX7 when he turned 16, rotary engine of course. 😜
 I am busy with rental property today. August 1 is the beginning of the season here for college students so all must be well for three young women I will be leasing a house to. I rent to grad students mostly; far less likely to party like 18 and 19 year olds.🥳🥳🥳


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I drive a CX5 and gave my son a red RX7 when he turned 16, rotary engine of course. 😜
> I am busy with rental property today. August 1 is the beginning of the season here for college students so all must be well for three young women I will be leasing a house to. I rent to grad students mostly; far less likely to party like 18 and 19 year olds.🥳🥳🥳



The Grads still party.  But they definitely have graduated from cheap beer and red solo cups to more refined tastes at that point!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> The Grads still party.  But they definitely have graduated from cheap beer and red solo cups to more refined tastes at that point!


Oh I know lol. I bought the contents of a bar a few years back and gave cases of the cheap stuff to renters. The older renters were more selective.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact out of all new production tubes, probably the PSVANE are the only tubes which are worth considering compared to NOS


They're the most popular, I'm still wanting to check out the Sophia. Anybody here roll these? Only $210 for grade A copy ... 😁
https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7?variant=18840948998213


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> While they are a blast to drive - its not consumer friendly with the extremely poor emissions and fuel economy and difficult maintenance.  Though I think they conversion kits that you could put a 13b into a Miata.  I think the challenge was always with the required chassis mods needed to put it in.
> 
> But yeah - they are super awesome to drive.  I had the opportunity to drive (a mechanic/friend's)  RX-7 FD years ago, and it was one of the best driving experiences I've had.


The only Mazda I've drove was a Protege5. I liked it. Fun little car. Just needed a turbo.
That said, in full disclosure, I am a Z car guy. 240Z FTW!


----------



## therremans

I like driving.. but I don’t like payments. I’ve driven my 2006 Hyundai Sonata for a decade now. It’s never given me a problem or a sudden visit the a garage. Although I do the maintenance.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> The only Mazda I've drove was a Protege5. I liked it. Fun little car. Just needed a turbo.
> That said, in full disclosure, I am a Z car guy. 240Z FTW!


I was a Z-Car guy too ('78 280Z, '83 280ZX, '88 twin turbo 300ZX) and loved them all.  After a stint with a Toyota 4-Runner, I had my heart set on a 350Z in '05...and money in hand.  Then I drove it.  Rode like a forklift -- I mean jar-the-teeth-out-of-your-head rough ride.  The door sills came up to my neck (and I'm 6'3") making it very claustrophobic, and visibility to the sides and the rear was beyond awful.  Yup, it was fast as hell and cornered like a dream, but the brutality of the ride comfort was way way WAY over the top even for a sports car addict.  As I was driving home all dejected and disappointed, I rode past the Mazda dealership that had an RX-8 sitting on a pedestal out front...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I like driving.. but I don’t like payments. I’ve driven my 2006 Hyundai Sonata for a decade now. It’s never given me a problem or a sudden visit the a garage. Although I do the maintenance.


Me either.  I got a 3 year loan on the Mazda (2005) and paid it off in a year.  In fact until my wife crashed her (2004) SUV and I got a loan on the replacement, I hadn't had a car payment in 15 years. One loan sucks, but better than two.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 30, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> While they are a blast to drive - its not consumer friendly with the extremely poor emissions and fuel economy and difficult maintenance.


All true.  And Mazda shot themselves in the foot in a number of ways with the RX8 (and rotaries in general). Some things just so dirt simple that it makes you wonder how the engineering minds that were smart enough to put the thing together glossed over them.

Mine is still running strong at 150k miles.  A lot of things have broken over the years, but the engine is still original, smooth, and hits that 9250 RPM redline as quickly as it ever did.  Well, the redline is actually 9000, but the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 9250, so same difference.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> One loan sucks, but better than two.


…Substitute ‘GE tube’ for ‘loan’…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I drive a CX5 and gave my son a red RX7 when he turned 16, rotary engine of course. 😜
> I am busy with rental property today. August 1 is the beginning of the season here for college students so all must be well for three young women I will be leasing a house to. I rent to grad students mostly; far less likely to party like 18 and 19 year olds.🥳🥳🥳


Yeah Grad students are into more serious business 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> All true.  And Mazda shot themselves in the foot in a number of ways with the RX8 (and rotaries in general). Some things just so dirt simple that it makes you wonder how the engineering minds that were smart enough to put the thing together glossed over them.
> 
> Mine is still running strong at 150k miles.  A lot of things have broken over the years, but the engine is still original, smooth, and hits that 9250 RPM redline as quickly as it ever did.  Well, the redline is actually 9000, but the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 9250, so same difference.


Well attached is my OS Wankel RC plane rotary engine and it's giving me a headache but when it's running it's a music to my ears.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I was a Z-Car guy too ('78 280Z, '83 280ZX, '88 twin turbo 300ZX) and loved them all.  After a stint with a Toyota 4-Runner, I had my heart set on a 350Z in '05...and money in hand.  Then I drove it.  Rode like a forklift -- I mean jar-the-teeth-out-of-your-head rough ride.  The door sills came up to my neck (and I'm 6'3") making it very claustrophobic, and visibility to the sides and the rear was beyond awful.  Yup, it was fast as hell and cornered like a dream, but the brutality of the ride comfort was way way WAY over the top even for a sports car addict.  As I was driving home all dejected and disappointed, I rode past the Mazda dealership that had an RX-8 sitting on a pedestal out front...


I was into Z cars before they added 500 lbs to the car with the bumper system they had to use. I had a 1973 240 Z, loved the car and sold it for more than I paid for it. One of the few cars that used to appreciate in value.

Ok as far as new renters, one lady has a Triumph motorcycle and another is from North Carolina. I could detect an East coast accent but could not quite put my finger on the local, almost sounded like New York or New Jersey lol, I was expecting something more southern. At least she could carry on a conversation without talking bar-b-cue.  

Getting back to tubes, this morning it is a 56 Melz solid plate paired with a 1959 Svetlana power tube.

Listening to a remastered version of Sweet Jane.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I was into Z cars before they added 500 lbs to the car with the bumper system they had to use. I had a 1973 240 Z, loved the car and sold it for more than I paid for it. One of the few cars that used to appreciate in value.
> 
> Ok as far as new renters, one lady has a Triumph motorcycle and another is from North Carolina. I could detect an East coast accent but could not quite put my finger on the local, almost sounded like New York or New Jersey lol, I was expecting something more southern. At least she could carry on a conversation without talking bar-b-cue.


…is the NC entry to the Miss America pageant Miss Barbie Q…?


----------



## maketus

is  there sound difference beween 6h13c and 6h5c


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 2, 2021)

maketus said:


> is  there sound difference beween 6h13c and 6h5c


It can depend on the year, those are for the most part the same tube, some Russians say the 6h5c is the older version and more sought after. I pick up slight differences on those from the 50’s and from the military versions.

One day I hope to set up a blind listen using various 6080's, 6as7g's, 5998's etc. Someone behind the scenes will have to adjust volume level to make sure there is no difference since tubes like 5998's have a higher gain. I do have some 6h13C's from 1959 I like. They came to me in original boxes.


----------



## Ripper2860

jonathan c said:


> …is the NC entry to the Miss America pageant Miss Barbie Q…?


Groan.


----------



## Slade01

maketus said:


> is  there sound difference beween 6h13c and 6h5c


Also if you're curious - 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-10854210

and the subsequent response:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-10854241

You can find the data sheets which mark some differences but the TLDR is that both tubes have lower gains than a 6AS7.  

Take it for what you will.  Personally I've had the 6H13C, it lends to very nice soundstage for music,  but really nothing in the way of bass at least in my chain w/DV.


----------



## maketus

just ordered one 6h5c tube from a local store.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One day I hope to set up a blind listen using various 6080's, 6as7g's, 5998's etc. Someone behind the scenes will have to adjust volume level to make sure there is no difference since tubes like 5998's have a higher gain. I do have some 6h13C's from 1959 I like. They came to me in original boxes.


Count me in.  But the GE will lose, unless of course all the rest of the tubes have only 5% emission and/or dead shorts.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Count me in.  But the GE will lose, unless of course all the rest of the tubes have only 5% emission and/or dead shorts.


Thus spoke the man who has not heard the GE 5998A like so many of us have.😜

@sam6550a, @AudioGal, @FLTWS, and others have been brave enough to try one. Shall we have another bet where you try to pick the GE? Hmmmm?😎😎


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Groan.


Jealous that NC beat TX to the punch?…


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Thus spoke the man who has not heard the GE 5998A like so many of us have.😜


Hmm….blind listening sessions vs deaf seeing sessions….


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Thus spoke the man who has not heard the GE 5998A like so many of us have.😜
> 
> @sam6550a, @AudioGal, @FLTWS, and others have been brave enough to try one. Shall we have another bet where you try to pick the GE? Hmmmm?😎😎


I own four of them and I will take on anyone…a fight to the filament?…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Count me in.  But the GE will lose, unless of course all the rest of the tubes have only 5% emission and/or dead shorts.


Well I trusted your judgement for the T Plates Raytheon and it paid, also I liked the Black leader plates W/Xtra support Raytheon 6SN7GT too 😍
Took your words for the GE as well so help me God 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Thus spoke the man who has not heard the GE 5998A like so many of us have.😜
> 
> @sam6550a, @AudioGal, @FLTWS, and others have been brave enough to try one. Shall we have another bet where you try to pick the GE? Hmmmm?😎😎


Am still out as well looking for non eBay suppliers 😢😢 with no luck


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am still out as well looking for non eBay suppliers 😢😢 with no luck


You are not that hard to ship to, you should get @bcowen to buy one for you, he could give it a listen then ship it on to you since he can ship it to a location in the US. This way he could hear one at no cost and re-solder the pins if need be.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Thus spoke the man who has not heard the GE 5998A like so many of us have.😜
> 
> @sam6550a, @AudioGal, @FLTWS, and others have been *cajoled into trying one*.


Here....FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are not that hard to ship to, you should get @bcowen to buy one for you, he could give it a listen then ship it on to you since he can ship it to a location in the US. This way he could hear one at no cost and re-solder the pins if need be.


Anything to help out a fellow audio bud.  _Except_ knowingly listening to a GE.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Anything to help out a fellow audio bud.  _Except_ knowingly listening to a GE.


Be a man, you human paraquat🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Anything to help out a fellow audio bud.  _Except_ knowingly listening to enduring a GE 😆


FTFY….[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Anything to help out a fellow audio bud.  _Except_ knowingly listening to a GE.


No worries, I won't put you through this agony 😂😂


----------



## maketus

new baby


----------



## dstarr3

I'm considering a DarkVoice in the near future to complement my HD6XX. What tubes would be recommended if I want to get a nice rich, warm, smooth sound? I imagine listening to a lot of singer-songwriter stuff, so vocals and acoustic instruments.


----------



## therremans

dstarr3 said:


> I'm considering a DarkVoice in the near future to complement my HD6XX. What tubes would be recommended if I want to get a nice rich, warm, smooth sound? I imagine listening to a lot of singer-songwriter stuff, so vocals and acoustic instruments.


What’s your budget?


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 4, 2021)

dstarr3 said:


> I'm considering a DarkVoice in the near future to complement my HD6XX. What tubes would be recommended if I want to get a nice rich, warm, smooth sound? I imagine listening to a lot of singer-songwriter stuff, so vocals and acoustic instruments.


If you like accuracy across the sound spectrum that is not bass heavy or mid loaded I like Melz 1578’s coupled with Tung Sol 5998’s or Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G’s. I can get more specific on 6SN7 equivalents but they do not always play well with Chinese amps of this caliber.😊

The tubes I am thinking of cost more than your amp but I have done a lot of experimenting.


----------



## dstarr3

therremans said:


> What’s your budget?


Well, in my searches, the first post that really grabbed my attention was this one: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-14819290

Looks like the tubes mentioned are $30 for the TS and about another $30 for the RCA. And I think he's describing the tone I'm looking for, but I might be wrong. Either way, $60 is a very acceptable price. But if going up in price does get me even closer to the tone I want, I'm not opposed to it. Probably $200 max.


----------



## Paladin79

dstarr3 said:


> Well, in my searches, the first post that really grabbed my attention was this one: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-14819290
> 
> Looks like the tubes mentioned are $30 for the TS and about another $30 for the RCA. And I think he's describing the tone I'm looking for, but I might be wrong. Either way, $60 is a very acceptable price. But if going up in price does get me even closer to the tone I want, I'm not opposed to it. Probably $200 max.


If you have a Darkvoice without modifications it is wise to stick to such tubes. I get so much hum in a standard DV that only a few tubes might work and quality of sound goes out the window.😀


----------



## therremans

These may help if you haven’t found them already. 

Two 6SN7 reference threads:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/

6J5 (6SN7 equivalent):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BukZ-NuUqh4o_Z2ZOi6KrGavsw5EZNOLSvGa-l5cHLU/edit

Power tubes:
(2) For 6AS7G tube rollers here ..... | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org

There are so many combinations out there and equivalent tubes. If you stick with some nice testing NOS tubes, you likely won’t be disappointed. I’d try to find a nice Chatham 6AS7G to start out. Then try to find a domino plate 5998 if you want to try something more lively and are willing to spend $100 or so. I could name some others but check out the threads. Another option is a Svetlana 6AS7G/6N13S which will be cheaper.

You’ll have a lot more options with the front 6SN7 or equivalent tubes and won’t need to really spend as much. But every tube sounds a little different.. which is why we get so hooked. A well chosen $20 tube can sometimes get you 80% there. Stick with the older 40s, 50s tubes if you can and avoid tube websites. eBay is usually full of good tubes.


----------



## therremans

dstarr3 said:


> Well, in my searches, the first post that really grabbed my attention was this one: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-14819290
> 
> Looks like the tubes mentioned are $30 for the TS and about another $30 for the RCA. And I think he's describing the tone I'm looking for, but I might be wrong. Either way, $60 is a very acceptable price. But if going up in price does get me even closer to the tone I want, I'm not opposed to it. Probably $200 max.


My darkvoice didn’t hum when it was stock. My first couple of tubes was a new red base Russian made tung sol 6sn7gtb and a 1970s orange label RCA 6as7g. It was some improvement over the Chinese tubes but I would skip them. I have $10 1940s tubes that sound better than that Russian tung sol. I didn’t care for the RCA 6AS7Gs that I have. But I haven’t owned a good example as mine doesn’t test that well, even though it was NOS 1950s.

I know that JKDJedi didn’t use HD6XXs either and that will naturally make him biased towards some other tubes. The Mullard 6080 is another recommendation, if you can find it for a decent price.. sub $75.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> These may help if you haven’t found them already.
> 
> Two 6SN7 reference threads:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
> ...


My likes and dislikes are pretty specific and while I own a DV I need to modify it before I could listen much.😏


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My likes and dislikes are pretty specific and while I own a DV I need to modify it before I could listen much.😏


Disabled Vehicle in for repair redesign…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Disabled Vehicle in for repair redesign…


I need to get back to my DV but right now my interests lie in art history and other areas.


----------



## Slade01

dstarr3 said:


> I'm considering a DarkVoice in the near future to complement my HD6XX. What tubes would be recommended if I want to get a nice rich, warm, smooth sound? I imagine listening to a lot of singer-songwriter stuff, so vocals and acoustic instruments.



i know this is leading a bit down the tube rolling rabbit hole.  for rich, warm, smooth sound,  i'd look for an RCA Gray Glass 6SN7 (or VT-231).   Or the National Union Black Glass 6SN7GT.  I'm not sure how they price these days -- they used to be reasonably priced before.  Or sometimes you can find these tubes - just rebranded with a different name and sometimes you can get a bargain that way as well.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get back to my DV but right now my interests lie in art history and other areas.


It wouldn't take you very long to lift off the Darkvoice placard off the amp, prior to placing the amp into e-waste recycling, then proceed to glue it on to your incubus.  Instant redesign/improvement.  LOL.


----------



## Deceneu808

Another excellent combo for the DV


----------



## therremans

Here’s some 5692 tubes on eBay I’d recommend bidding reasonably on.. they’re a favorite of mine. keep in mind the test results. You’ll want to pay less for a lower testing tube.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-RED-BA...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-5692-6...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 5, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> It wouldn't take you very long to lift off the Darkvoice placard off the amp, prior to placing the amp into e-waste recycling, then proceed to glue it on to your incubus.  Instant redesign/improvement.  LOL.


My likes and dislikes are pretty specific but I do hope to keep some of the DV original, I just redid my BH Crack and as you can imagine, it is not a lot like the original. 
Cabinet and left and right volume controls are always in my thoughts before I start any such project. I may keep the top plate of the DV and not do steampunk this time but it has to be pretty as well as sounding good. BH Crack on the right. I am using 6sn7 equivalents and similar power tubes to what the DV uses, in both amps.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

Every once in a while I like listening to GE 6SN7GTB Side Getter Glow Dome. These are by far the warmest sounding tube I have ever heard, they are not the best as the highs and lows are recessed a few db, but they are super enjoyable to listen to. Plus I think they are one of the better looking 6SN7.


----------



## Slade01

Nickhasarrived said:


> Every once in a while I like listening to GE 6SN7GTB Side Getter Glow Dome. These are by far the warmest sounding tube I have ever heard, they are not the best as the highs and lows are recessed a few db, but they are super enjoyable to listen to. Plus I think they are one of the better looking 6SN7.



So these GE 6SN7 Glow Domes are ones of the very few GE types I've heard that were worth a look listen.  I've even written down in my notes as a very bold claim that this is a very very poor man's 5692 version.  Has anyone ever taken the pepsi challenge on this?


----------



## Nickhasarrived (Aug 5, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> So these GE 6SN7 Glow Domes are ones of the very few GE types I've heard that were worth a look listen.  I've even written down in my notes as a very bold claim that this is a very very poor man's 5692 version.  Has anyone ever taken the pepsi challenge on this?


I have never heard the 5692, as I really don't want to spend the money for one, but I got my glow domes for $40 each, and they are my go to "fun" tubes. To me it that would seem like a stretch to compare to the 5692 though, it's like the fishing thing where every fish you find in a mud hole is "poor mans lobster"


----------



## therremans

Nickhasarrived said:


> I have never heard the 5692, as I really don't want to spend the money for one, but I got my glow domes for $40 each, and they are my go to "fun" tubes. To me it that would seem like a stretch though, it like the fishing thing where every fish you find in a mud hole is "poor mans lobster"


I found my 5692s for $20 each and a cbs for $40. Keep looking.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

therremans said:


> I found my 5692s for $20 each


You have better luck than I do then, all the ones I find that test balanced, NOS, low microphonic are over $100.


----------



## therremans

Nickhasarrived said:


> You have better luck than I do then, all the ones I find that test balanced, NOS, low microphonic are over $100.


Right, but that’s a lot of specific parameters to meet and you’ll always be paying a premium. Mine were from sellers who didn’t really know what they had and the tubes were untested.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

therremans said:


> Right, but that’s a lot of specific parameters to meet and you’ll always be paying a premium. Mine were from sellers who didn’t really know what they had and the tubes were untested.


At that point you are pretty much gambling, and I don't even have my own tester, so there is no way I would be able to determine what I got. Knowing my luck I would buy 10 tubes before I got 1 NOS. Let alone the other requirements for it to be a good tube.


----------



## Slade01 (Aug 5, 2021)

Nickhasarrived said:


> I have never heard the 5692, as I really don't want to spend the money for one, but I got my glow domes for $40 each, and they are my go to "fun" tubes. To me it that would seem like a stretch to compare to the 5692 though, it's like the fishing thing where every fish you find in a mud hole is "poor mans lobster"



Indeed.   It's just coincidence that 5692 was just brought up, and then you with the GE Glow Domes.  I happened to come across that extremely bold claim comparing the two once upon a time and I had noted it, but had forgotten about it until now.   You have to understand, there is a certain (though often negative/but fun) fascination with GE Tubes here on the thread, and only few types have surprised  people or are even noted to some frequency when discussing tubes (here or on various other forums), at least from my experience -- this has been now the 5998A (power tube), talk of 5-Star branded GE line (still debatable), and the GE Glow Domes.  

The comparison claim does seem very unlikely -- as you just stated that the highs and lows seems rolled off/maybe recessed.  The 5692 is supposed to be a details kind of tube.  I don't have experience with either tube so I take the word from you fine folks that this is the most likely case.

I know what you mean about the whole fishing thing.  Still, when you do find tubes that can take you even 75-80% of the way in sound of a very premium, near unobtanium counterpart at a fraction of the price, its really helpful to know and can help a lot of those who are tube rolling on a limited budget.


----------



## therremans (Aug 5, 2021)

Nickhasarrived said:


> At that point you are pretty much gambling, and I don't even have my own tester, so there is no way I would be able to determine what I got. Knowing my luck I would buy 10 tubes before I got 1 NOS. Let alone the other requirements for it to be a good tube.


Yep it’s a gamble. But one often worth taking, why do you want only NOS? Many tubes have a long lifespan, especially 6SN7 and the variants. Being hung up on a “perfect tube” isn’t really worth the cost and yet I understand it’s appealing, it surely isn’t any reason to not buy untested. Most sellers even offer returns if it arrives and isn’t working or is microphonic.

However, in my case, nearly all of the tubes I buy as untested do test well, most near or above the new stock bogey levels. Tubes are more resilient than people think and I’ve had a few tubes test below min value yet I can’t really hear a difference. I’m just saying, don’t get stuck on the test parameters or lack thereof and let a good  tube slip by.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

Slade01 said:


> Still, when you do find tubes that can take you even 75-80% of the way in sound of a very premium, near unobtanium counterpart at a fraction of the price, its really helpful to know and can help a lot of those who are tube rolling on a limited budget.


Completely agree, I personally have a ZMF pendent with very expensive tubes in it, and they sound only MAYBE 5% better than $80 tubes. But it is all about that little bit to get exactly the sound you want. For example, the pendent is what I use when I what to listen on more my detail oriented headphones. Where I use a modded darkvoice 336se for my more layed back headphones.


therremans said:


> But one often worth taking, why do you want only NOS?


I have found in my tube rolling experience, a really good true tube amp will make a non-nos tube sound horrible. A true tube amp will let the tube do all of the work and a tube that tests 15% below nos sounds 15% worse than a nos tube. Maybe it is the way I have modded my amp to force the tubes to do more, but that is just my experience.


----------



## therremans

Nickhasarrived said:


> I have found in my tube rolling experience, a really good true tube amp will make a non-nos tube sound horrible. A true tube amp will let the tube do all of the work and a tube that tests 15% below nos sounds 15% worse than a nos tube.


Haha owning a tube amp that is a snob sounds expensive and unreasonable.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

therremans said:


> Haha owning a tube amp that is a snob sounds expensive and unreasonable.


Ya, kinda sucks, but it sounds significantly better than it did before. I am going to be selling that to a friend here soon, I am mostly done with experimenting with that amp, and when I am no longer ripping it apart I tend to sell it. (Built a few boats in my life so far, after I am done building them I sell them after a year lol)


----------



## Paladin79

Nickhasarrived said:


> Completely agree, I personally have a ZMF pendent with very expensive tubes in it, and they sound only MAYBE 5% better than $80 tubes. But it is all about that little bit to get exactly the sound you want. For example, the pendent is what I use when I what to listen on more my detail oriented headphones. Where I use a modded darkvoice 336se for my more layed back headphones.
> 
> I have found in my tube rolling experience, a really good true tube amp will make a non-nos tube sound horrible. A true tube amp will let the tube do all of the work and a tube that tests 15% below nos sounds 15% worse than a nos tube. Maybe it is the way I have modded my amp to force the tubes to do more, but that is just my experience.


Lmao you are joking right??? Non NOS and NOS tubes. There are certainly some great tubes with little usage that are already burned in. 🤪🤪🤪🤪


----------



## Nickhasarrived (Aug 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> There are certainly some great tubes with little usage that are already burned in.


I am confused how burn in has anything to do with a tube being NOS.
As I mentioned, probably just the way I built my amp, but yes the quality of the tube does make a difference in my setup.

Edit: Unless you are taking the literal meaning of NOS/NIB where they have never been used before. I am talking about testing NOS


----------



## Galapac

Nickhasarrived said:


> I am confused how burn in has anything to do with a tube being NOS.
> As I mentioned, probably just the way I built my amp, but yes the quality of the tube does make a difference in my setup.
> 
> Edit: Unless you are taking the literal meaning of NOS/NIB where they have never been used before. I am talking about testing NOS


I think what others may be getting at (I may be wrong) is that you must be pushing your heaters to the max in your amp for that to make a difference where you can perceive and noted difference in NOS vs non-Nos and thereby also shortening the life of your tubes.
It may sound better to you in your setup but wouldn't it be wiser to engineer an amp that makes better use of the tube within normal operating limits? 
A tube that runs hotter will last a significantly less of a life and will cost you more in the long run. 

I may be totally off base here but just sharing my thoughts,


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Lmao you are joking right??? Non NOS and NOS tubes. There are certainly some great tubes with little usage that are already burned in. 🤪🤪🤪🤪



I think what @Nickhasarrived is simply saying is that he has modded his amp in such a way where the SQ is directly proportional literally to the use/testing numbers of a tube, where a NOS testing tube sounds better compared to a (NOS/used) tube that tests only in the "good range" (e.g. @ 80%).  And thus the NOS testing tube would literally sound 20% better in such a case.  I hope I am understanding the logic correctly.


----------



## Nickhasarrived

Galapac said:


> It may sound better to you in your setup but wouldn't it be wiser to engineer an amp that makes better use of the tube within normal operating limits?


You are defiantly right that it is wiser to use a tube at its normal range. I never claimed what I was doing was smart 
But to put in perspective, my darkvoice 336se that I bought new for $200, and I am running $70 worth of tubes in, sounds nearly as good at my ZMF pendent SE ($2700).


----------



## Slade01

Nickhasarrived said:


> You are defiantly right that it is wiser to use a tube at its normal range. I never claimed what I was doing was smart
> But to put in perspective, my darkvoice 336se that I bought new for $200, and I am running $70 worth of tubes in, sounds nearly as good at my ZMF pendent SE ($2700).



I don't know if I would be happy, or lose my freaking mind with buyers remorse, knowing I have a 200 dollar amp that sounds nearly as good as a 2700 amp.  Lol


----------



## Nickhasarrived

Both 

Edit: Happily loosing my freaking mind


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Not sure what discussion is about but just in case anyone wants to throw away an 80% testing WE 421a send it to me instead.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 6, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I think what @Nickhasarrived is simply saying is that he has modded his amp in such a way where the SQ is directly proportional literally to the use/testing numbers of a tube, where a NOS testing tube sounds better compared to a (NOS/used) tube that tests only in the "good range" (e.g. @ 80%).  And thus the NOS testing tube would literally sound 20% better in such a case.  I hope I am understanding the logic correctly.


You have to understand how a tube ages to talk about SQ being directly proportional, I have some tubes that certainly register as used and you might have to adjust the volume a bit but if they are within a specific operating range many are fine. Now I could do an experiment where I send out four NOS tubes and four slightly used tubes and let someone try to pick out the NOS blind. If you take a tube right out of the box the SQ can be awful till it has burned in. 

I design 6sn7 amps and have access to over 1900 6sn7 equivalent tube types that have undergone fairly extensive testing. Once you get a NOS tube and run it for say ten hours to break it in, it is now a used tube that rates high on a tube tester. I have purchased used tubes that tested extremely close to NOS specs so the thing about NOS or NIB and percentages of differences just makes me scratch my head lol. I also test with equipment as well as listening. I could measure a slight difference after running a Foton tube 100 hours compared to a brand new Foton but hearing the difference is another matter but each to their own.       I have yet to mod a DV amp but will when other projects taper off.


----------



## Nickhasarrived (Aug 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Once you get a NOS tube and run it for say ten hours to break it in, it is now a used tube that rates high on a tube tester.


I was using the term nos to describe a tube that tests nos, not literal nos. I have also burned through a few tubes in my time with the DV, so far the 6080 in my 6AS7 is the only thing that is lasting more than a 100 hours.


Paladin79 said:


> I have yet to mod a DV amp but will when other projects tape off.


It is well worth the time, with the amount of knowledge you have in building them, I am sure you will be very happy with the results.


Paladin79 said:


> Now I could do an experiment where I send out four NOS tubes and four slightly used tubes and let someone try to pick out the NOS blind.


This is something I would love to do, I am currently moving right now, and will be busy switching over to the new housing. But once that is done I might take you up on that.


----------



## Slade01 (Aug 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You have to understand how a tube ages to talk about SQ being directly proportional, I have some tubes that certainly register as used and you might have to adjust the volume a bit but if they are within a specific operating range many are fine. Now I could do an experiment where I send out four NOS tubes and four slightly used tubes and let someone try to pick out the NOS blind. If you take a tube right out of the box the SQ can be awful till it has burned in.
> 
> I design 6sn7 amps and have access to over 1900 6sn7 equivalent tube types that have undergone fairly extensive testing. Once you get a NOS tube and run it for say ten hours to break it in, it is now a used tube that rates high on a tube tester. I have purchased used tubes that tested extremely close to NOS specs so the thing about NOS or NIB and percentages of differences just makes me scratch my head lol. I also test with equipment as well as listening. I could measure a slight difference after running a Foton tube 100 hours compared to a brand new Foton but hearing the difference is another matter but each to their own.       I have yet to mod a DV amp but will when other projects tape off.



Yup.  Absolutely.  I was just trying to figure out what Nickhasarrived was trying to say about his amp and his approach.

Me personally, I have no tube tester, and am beholden to the word of sellers and you fine folks, and no qualms about test numbers.    My only criteria comes down to..."does it light up", "does it hum/need burn in time", and "does it sound good".  So yeah im just happy if the tube works and sounds good.   I don't read into the numbers so closely, and w/o a tester, can't verify anything anyways, so my personal acceptable range criteria is pretty wide.

And you are right - true NOS tubes, actually every single one I've had has the humming issue because (stock DV design), and my used but alleged high testing tubes have had burn in and usually sound silent from the get-go so I totally would understand that angle of the experiment.

Numbers to me just happen to be used to correlate to pricing.  And the DV is pretty forgiving as my allegedly NOS tubes sound about the same as the barely passing for "good/fair" tube ranges.  Where maybe the un-seeable lifespan is different, the SQ at least to me has a wide latitude in maintaining a certain standard until the parts really do start giving out, but i would imagine this would be a very noticeable drop off....(and again just in the context of the DV point of view and my own experience.) YMMV


----------



## Slade01

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Not sure what discussion is about but just in case anyone wants to throw away an 80% testing WE 421a send it to me instead.


LOL.  That is probably still worth more than 2 dark voice amps....


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Nickhasarrived said:


> I have also burned through a few tubes in my time with the DV, so far the 6080 in my 6AS7 is the only thing that is lasting more than a 100 hours.



This is what Bottlehead guy is saying:






My understanding is that signal tubes would last even longer. What is the sound quality curve over tube lifetime is a separate question of course.

Perhaps (modded) Dark Voice puts tubes through voltages / currents far beyond manufacturer's specification?


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Slade01 said:


> My only criteria comes down to..."does it light up", "does it hum/need burn in time", and "does it sound good".  So yeah im just happy if the tube works and sounds good.   I don't read into the numbers so closely, and w/o a tester, can't verify anything anyways, so my personal acceptable range criteria is pretty wide.



Personally I have encountered more issues with oxidized pins than anything else. I believe @Paladin79 has a lot of success re-soldering pins which is the ultimate solution in that area.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> You have to understand how a tube ages to talk about SQ being directly proportional, I have some tubes that certainly register as used and you might have to adjust the volume a bit but if they are within a specific operating range many are fine. Now I could do an experiment where I send out four NOS tubes and four slightly used tubes and let someone try to pick out the NOS blind. If you take a tube right out of the box the SQ can be awful till it has burned in.
> 
> I design 6sn7 amps and have access to over 1900 6sn7 equivalent tube types that have undergone fairly extensive testing. Once you get a NOS tube and run it for say ten hours to break it in, it is now a used tube that rates high on a tube tester. I have purchased used tubes that tested extremely close to NOS specs so the thing about NOS or NIB and percentages of differences just makes me scratch my head lol. I also test with equipment as well as listening. I could measure a slight difference after running a Foton tube 100 hours compared to a brand new Foton but hearing the difference is another matter but each to their own.       I have yet to mod a DV amp but will when other projects tape off.


You and your blind tests . If I still lived in South Bend, I’d probably be up for a trip. It sounds fun and I’d probably be wiser afterwards with my money, or know how to build a shed.

Yes, I own some very (visually) used tubes and they still may test near new. I have no real idea how many hours are on them but they have visual burn in on the dome. I may assume this is more typical for driver tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Nickhasarrived said:


> I was using the term nos to describe a tube that tests nos, not literal nos. I have also burned through a few tubes in my time with the DV, so far the 6080 in my 6AS7 is the only thing that is lasting more than a 100 hours.
> 
> It is well worth the time, with the amount of knowledge you have in building them, I am sure you will be very happy with the results.
> 
> This is something I would love to do, I am currently moving right now, and will be busy switching over to the new housing. But once that is done I might take you up on that.


You are most kind and I may have misunderstood. I studied tube theory in college so often my thoughts drift towards science and less to opinion.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> You are most kind and I may have misunderstood. I studied tube theory in college so often my thoughts drift towards science and less to opinion.


tube theory in college? You must have wrote your papers on a manual typewriter...


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> You and your blind tests . If I still lived in South Bend, I’d probably be up for a trip. It sounds fun and I’d probably be wiser afterwards with my money, or know how to build a shed.
> 
> Yes, I own some very (visually) used tubes and they still may test near new. I have no real idea how many hours are on them but they have visual burn in on the dome. I may assume this is more typical for driver tubes.


If you can think of a better way of eliminating expectation bias than blind testing I will run it by my group lol.  Seriously if you know a tube costs $1,000 or multiple people say a round plate tung sol black glass is the way to go, blind testing has its merits. All testing is done with audio engineers and EE's so it is pretty controlled.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> tube theory in college? You must have wrote your papers on a manual typewriter...


I also had to know how to use a slide rule. Do you happen to know the longest word you can make using the top row of letters on a typewriter or most modern keyboards? Typewriter.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I also had to know how to use a slide rule. Do you happen to know the longest word you can make using the top row of letters on a typewriter or most modern keyboards? Typewriter.


I wasn't far behind, we had a slide rule in the house but it was my mother's and I typed all of my papers on an electric typewriter. Computers at the time were rare and only used for looking up library reference materials or teching the mundane programming languages of the time, i.e. Cobol, Pascal, and the dreaded FORTRAN.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I also had to know how to use a slide rule. Do you happen to know the longest word you can make using the top row of letters on a typewriter or most modern keyboards? Typewriter.


~ I still have my Olympia manual (non-electric) typewriter and my Faber-Castell slide-rule. The typewriter hails from college, the slide-rule hails from boarding school (Nairobi, Kenya).
~ At graduate school (MBA), computers were mainframe (IBM 360 etc), SPSS (Statistical Package for Social Studies) was the only algorithmic / analytic programme available, and the edge-perforated computer paper piled up like mad in the research room.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I also had to know how to use a slide rule. Do you happen to know the longest word you can make using the top row of letters on a typewriter or most modern keyboards? Typewriter.


I still have my slide rules and use them occasionally. Yes, I had a manual Royal and had to write lab reports with Rapidograph pens.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I wasn't far behind, we had a slide rule in the house but it was my mother's and I typed all of my papers on an electric typewriter. Computers at the time were rare and only used for looking up library reference materials or teching the mundane programming languages of the time, i.e. Cobol, Pascal, and the dreaded FORTRAN.


Isn’t it something that the shortage nowadays of people familiar/expert in COBOL etc is affecting government/private sector ability to upgrade/secure its computer milieu?


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> ~ I still have my Olympia manual (non-electric) typewriter and my Faber-Castell slide-rule. The typewriter hails from college, the slide-rule hails from boarding school (Nairobi, Kenya).
> ~ At graduate school (MBA), computers were mainframe (IBM 360 etc), SPSS (Statistical Package for Social Studies) was the only algorithmic / analytic programme available, and the edge-perforated computer paper piled up like mad in the research room.



LOL.  I didn't realize SPSS was that old!   I used it about 22 years ago myself.  And it still exists today and going strong.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I also had to know how to use a slide rule. Do you happen to know the longest word you can make using the top row of letters on a typewriter or most modern keyboards? Typewriter.





Galapac said:


> I wasn't far behind, we had a slide rule in the house but it was my mother's and I typed all of my papers on an electric typewriter. Computers at the time were rare and only used for looking up library reference materials or teching the mundane programming languages of the time, i.e. Cobol, Pascal, and the dreaded FORTRAN.





jonathan c said:


> ~ I still have my Olympia manual (non-electric) typewriter and my Faber-Castell slide-rule. The typewriter hails from college, the slide-rule hails from boarding school (Nairobi, Kenya).
> ~ At graduate school (MBA), computers were mainframe (IBM 360 etc), SPSS (Statistical Package for Social Studies) was the only algorithmic / analytic programme available, and the edge-perforated computer paper piled up like mad in the research room.



Were you guys impressed back then when the first Lee de Forest's Audion came out?


----------



## therremans

Whenever I feel like I’m getting older at 35, I come to this thread.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Whenever I feel like I’m getting older at 35, I come to this thread.


Heck, @bcowen has navel lint older than you.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Heck, @bcowen has navel lint older than you.


😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 6, 2021)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Personally I have encountered more issues with oxidized pins than anything else. I believe @Paladin79 has a lot of success re-soldering pins which is the ultimate solution in that area.


I have mostly had issues with Russian tubes like Fotons and Melz but it seems a lot of Tung Sol 5998's and even fairly new GE 5998A's are running into issues. I found it best to remove the old solder in the pins, apply a healthy amount of liquid flux and then re-solder them.

I donated some 6sn7's to @HTSkywalker and many of my favorite Melz and even Fotons sounded terrible in my DV so I think I could only send him a lesser Melz and no Fotons at all, even with re-soldered pins lol. I do own a lot of Melz and love them so I will need to mod my DV to accept them or give it away.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Whenever I feel like I’m getting older at 35, I come to this thread.


At least the holy grail NOS tubes that I use and hoard collect (how’s that, bcowen?) are younger than me 🤓😆…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> At least the holy grail NOS tubes that I use and hoard collect (how’s that, bcowen?) are younger than me 🤓😆…


I am always fascinated to learn what are considered Holy Grail, mostly in the 6sn7 and 6080 equivalent world. Such things drive me to assemble a large group to see what they come up with. It is in process for 6sn7's but after that it will be power tubes. That should be much easier anyway.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Heck, @bcowen has navel lint older than you.


Proven by carbon dating…


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Not sure what discussion is about but just in case anyone wants to throw away an 80% testing WE 421a send it to me instead.


ROFL!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am always fascinated to learn what are considered Holy Grail, mostly in the 6sn7 and 6080 equivalent world. Such things drive me to assemble a large group to see what they come up with. It is in process for 6sn7's but after that it will be power tubes. That should be much easier anyway.


For me, the ‘holy grail’ tubes in the 6SN7 and 6080 categories are the Melz 1578 6N8S (1963 vintage: just delivered, pictures soon) and the GEC 6AS7G. ‘Holy grail’ not because of mere difficulty in obtaining but due to sound quality. Again, THANK YOU because what I know about 6SN7s has come from and been guided by you.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!!!!!!!


You or the WE 421a 😳….?


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> tube theory in college? You must have wrote your papers on a manual typewriter...


More like a stone tablet and a chisel.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Whenever I feel like I’m getting older at 35, I come to this thread.


Bite me us.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Heck, @bcowen has navel lint older than you.


I don't either.  I distinctly remember washing it out in 2015.  IIRC, anyway.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> For me, the ‘holy grail’ tubes in the 6SN7 and 6080 categories are the Melz 1578 6N8S (1963 vintage: just delivered, pictures soon) and the GEC 6AS7G. ‘Holy grail’ not because of mere difficulty in obtaining but due to sound quality. Again, THANK YOU because what I know about 6SN7s has come from and been guided by you.


Oh if you learned it from me it is fine, if you learned from @bcowen you should wash your mind out with soap. 😜😜😜😜


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You or the WE 421a 😳….?


I only roll NOS Japanese 6520's on the floor.  And then they break.  Kind of fun for a few seconds...


----------



## bcowen

Nickhasarrived said:


> I have also burned through a few tubes in my time with the DV, so far the 6080 in my 6AS7 is the only thing that is lasting more than a 100 hours.


You're not serious?  100 hours on tubes before they die?  Hopefully I'm not understanding you correctly.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh if you learned it from me it is fine, if you learned from @bcowen you should wash your mind out with soap. 😜😜😜😜


Quantum-tunneled, cryogenically treated, and properly cooked soap, to be exact.  Let's not cheap out on the important stuff.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You're not serious?  100 hours on tubes before they die?  Hopefully I'm not understanding you correctly.


Tell the 100 hour burn in story on Fotons Bill and who solved it for you.😜


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least the holy grail NOS tubes that I use and hoard collect (how’s that, bcowen?) are younger than me 🤓😆…


FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tell the 100 hour burn in story on Fotons Bill and who solved it for you.😜


That was break-in, not lifespan.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That was break-in, not lifespan.


Oh I know lol, I ran one for 100 hours and it was not diminished much at all.😜😜


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> More like a stone tablet and a chisel.


By the light of Paladin’s lamp….


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> By the light of Paladin’s lamp….


That would have required fire, which hadn't yet been discovered.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I don't either.  I distinctly remember washing it out in 2015.  IIRC, anyway.


A GE tube flash burned it off in MMXV…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I only roll NOS Japanese 6520's on the floor.  And then they break.  Kind of fun for a few seconds...


“Floora, floora, floora !” 😆


----------



## bcowen (Aug 6, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> A GE tube flash burned it off in MMXV…


That would have scarred me for life.  The chainsaw was faster AND more pleasant.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> For me, the ‘holy grail’ tubes in the 6SN7 and 6080 categories are the Melz 1578 6N8S (1963 vintage: just delivered, pictures soon) and the GEC 6AS7G. ‘Holy grail’ not because of mere difficulty in obtaining but due to sound quality. Again, THANK YOU because what I know about 6SN7s has come from and been guided by you.


The GEC is a great tube as well no doubt, once you get used to the 63 Melz I lead you on a Lancelot worthy journey for some of the variations. 

Consider @bcowen Galahad, one has to be worthy you know.😁😁😁


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The GEC is a great tube as well no doubt, once you get used to the 63 Melz I lead you on a Lancelot worthy journey for some of the variations.
> 
> Consider @bcowen Galahad, one has to be worthy you know.😁😁😁



So that makes me a gallant and pure person then?  _Pure_ is a bit of a stretch (OK fine, a *lot* of a stretch), but at least I'm most(ly) perfect.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So that makes me a gallant and pure person then?  _Pure_ is a bit of a stretch (OK fine, a *lot* of a stretch), but at least I'm most(ly) perfect.


All words beginning with a “B” apply. In heraldry you are obviously a Bar Sinister not a Bar Dexter. 😜😜😜😎

Google it.😏


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> All words beginning with a “B” apply. In heraldry you are obviously a Bar Sinister not a Bar Dexter. 😜😜😜😎
> 
> Google it.😏


I only go to a bar to drink Belvedere.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I only go to a bar to drink Belvedere.


Says the man who thinks wine only comes in a box.😜😜


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Says the man who thinks wine only comes in a box.😜😜


Hey, it’s a good price to volume ratio.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Says the man who thinks wine only comes in a box.😜😜


What?  It comes in plastic bottles now too?  I gotta get out more.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What?  It comes in plastic bottles now too?  I gotta get out more.


My wine supplier is now advertising 16 oz cans, tall boys are more your speed.😜😜😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My wine supplier is now advertising 16 oz cans, tall boys are more your speed.😜😜😜


…Carolina blue cans with wide mouth openings…comes in sixpacks…ask for it by name…bcowine !


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My wine supplier is now advertising 16 oz cans, tall boys are more your speed.😜😜😜


Real aluminum cans?  That must be expensive stuff.  Lucky.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …Carolina blue cans with wide mouth openings…comes in sixpacks…ask for it by name…bcowine !


LOL!  I remember the days before Duke when Carolina's main rival was NC State (the Wolfpack).  Had a Carolina blue bumper sticker on my car: "The only _good_ Pack is a six-pack."


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Real aluminum cans?  That must be expensive stuff.  Lucky.


----------



## whirlwind

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I remember the days before Duke when Carolina's main rival was NC State (the Wolfpack).  Had a Carolina blue bumper sticker on my car: "The only _good_ Pack is a six-pack."


Yeah...back in the David Thompson days...dude could leap out of the gym.


----------



## therremans

Usually shop at total wine and on a budget. I had a canned buttery Chardonnay recently and liked it. The can was cheaper than the bottle, per oz. https://www.totalwine.com/wine/whit...hardonnay-cans/p/214787375?s=929&igrules=true


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Usually shop at total wine and on a budget. I had a canned buttery Chardonnay recently and liked it. The can was cheaper than the bottle, per oz. https://www.totalwine.com/wine/whit...hardonnay-cans/p/214787375?s=929&igrules=true


They do not deliver to my address in Indiana. I have only found a couple companies who do deliver. One of them has to ship to a local liquor store and then they deliver. We have some pretty arcane laws concerning alcohol. I use Wine Insiders and mostly buy French and Italian wines with occasional buys from California, New Zealand, and Australia.

Time for a listen, 1956 Melz and Tung Sol 5998.   A remaster of the full version of Sweet Jane.


----------



## Mr Trev

Don't forget your can o'whiskey
https://www.pastemagazine.com/drink/whiskey/two-stacks-irish-whiskey-review-canned-dram/


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> They do not deliver to my address in Indiana. I have only found a couple companies who do deliver. One of them has to ship to a local liquor store and then they deliver. We have some pretty arcane laws concerning alcohol. I use Wine Insiders and mostly buy French and Italian wines with occasional buys from California, New Zealand, and Australia.
> 
> Time for a listen, 1956 Melz and Tung Sol 5998.   A remaster of the full version of Sweet Jane.


Yeah they do. I see they allow Sunday sales now.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I only go to a bar to drink Belvedere.


Not this? it has your colour all over it; “B” also:


----------



## maketus

what do you think of the 6h8c tube?  .  I listening maybe over 300hours cv181-z tube and now swapped 6h8c-78   back, and I don't trust my ears. I start to like  listening vocal jazz  more than before


----------



## Paladin79

maketus said:


> what do you think of the 6h8c tube?  .  I listening maybe over 300hours cv181-z tube and now swapped 6h8c-78   back, and I don't trust my ears. I start to like  listening vocal jazz  more than before


If the 1978 is a Melz it is definitely has a pronounced midrange and should help a lot with vocals. I am a huge fan of Melz 6H8C and the version called the 1578. I own them from the 50's on and among the sought after versions I tend to prefer late fifties and early sixties myself. They are very accurate across the entire audio spectrum and not too bass heavy. I will not get into the rare versions cause I like some of them even better.


----------



## Galapac

Ok..greengirl on eBay has had some strange photos for tubes but this one beats them all…

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1848844077...-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Ok..greengirl on eBay has had some strange photos for tubes but this one beats them all…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1848844077...-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001


ROFL!  But how'd she get into @Ripper2860 's house?  That picture looks a little fishy to me.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not this? it has your colour all over it; “B” also:


Awesome!  I've never tried that.  Looks expensive.  More than $4.99?  I may try some once I get through the 300 cases I bought of my longtime favorite:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 9, 2021)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  But how'd she get into @Ripper2860 's house?  That picture looks a little fishy to me.


The more pressing question is how do I get your inflatable paramour to leave my house?  After one night with me I can't get it to leave and go back to you!  

**Maybe it's the BBQ.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Ok..greengirl on eBay has had some strange photos for tubes but this one beats them all…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1848844077...-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001


Just stay the hell away from the Gorilla Glue…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  But how'd she get into @Ripper2860 's house?  That picture looks a little fishy to me.


Located by TX milk carton pictures of missing mannequin?…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Located by TX milk carton pictures of missing mannequin?…


Possibly, but I thought @Ripper2860 's Inflate-A-Date had kicked _him_ out of the house?  A mystery, to be sure...


----------



## sam6550a

Galapac said:


> Ok..greengirl on eBay has had some strange photos for tubes but this one beats them all…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1848844077...-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001


The color of the getter flash indicates that this tube led a very hard life, and will give poor performance. Suggest a "do not buy".


----------



## Mr Trev

sam6550a said:


> The color of the getter flash indicates that this tube led a very hard life, and will give poor performance. Suggest a "do not buy".


Care to explain for us clueless folks?


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> The color of the getter flash *flesh* indicates that this tube led a very hard life, and will give poor performance. Suggest a "do not buy bring home to Mum.”


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## sam6550a

Mr Trev said:


> Care to explain for us clueless folks?


Getter flash is generally silver in color. The getter flash on the subject 6550 is brown or tan, indicating that the tube was driven hard, the elements got very hot and out gassed,  which the getter flash tends to adsorb. As it is depleted, the silver color fades, This tube is probably gassy, exhibits heater - cathode leakage, or has low emission, but is certainly close to the end of its useful life.


----------



## Slade01

sam6550a said:


> Getter flash is generally silver in color. The getter flash on the subject 6550 is brown or tan, indicating that the tube was driven hard, the elements got very hot and out gassed,  which the getter flash tends to adsorb. As it is depleted, the silver color fades, This tube is probably gassy, exhibits heater - cathode leakage, or has low emission, but is certainly close to the end of its useful life.


So are the strong test results that this tube claims to have and the brown/tan getter flash color mutually exclusive?


----------



## Mr Trev

sam6550a said:


> Getter flash is generally silver in color. The getter flash on the subject 6550 is brown or tan, indicating that the tube was driven hard, the elements got very hot and out gassed,  which the getter flash tends to adsorb. As it is depleted, the silver color fades, This tube is probably gassy, exhibits heater - cathode leakage, or has low emission, but is certainly close to the end of its useful life.


Ahh, I guess you're referring to the brownish spots on the sides not the top.
Thanks for splaining.


----------



## sam6550a

Slade01 said:


> So are the strong test results that this tube claims to have and the brown/tan getter flash color mutually exclusive?


Since the only data presented is one number, which I surmise is transconductance, I have no way to tell. Tung-Sol [the original US company] specified the transconductance as 9000 at 87ma plate current and 11000 at 140 ma. Othe factors, however, also affect tube performance. I do have 3 6550s with brown getter flash in my tube locker, and all 3 show heater-cathode leakage after 10 minute warmup.


----------



## sam6550a

Mr Trev said:


> Ahh, I guess you're referring to the brownish spots on the sides not the top.
> Thanks for splaining.


Yes.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> So are the strong test results that this tube claims to have and the brown/tan getter flash color mutually exclusive?


Never trust that seller's test results.  Although she (he?) has a very nice vintage tester (the Triplett 3444A is quite nice), it's either not calibrated, not used correctly, or the test readings are a flat out lie.  I've bought two different tubes from her, both claimed as testing at NOS levels, and both barely at minimum values when tested on my Hickok (that IS calibrated and used correctly). I was refunded both times almost immediately with no request to return the tubes. Neither were expensive, but a no-questions-asked refund with no return required tells you something in and of itself, IMO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> If you like accuracy across the sound spectrum that is not bass heavy or mid loaded I like Melz 1578’s coupled with Tung Sol 5998’s or Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G’s. I can get more specific on 6SN7 equivalents but they do not always play well with Chinese amps of this caliber.😊
> 
> The tubes I am thinking of cost more than your amp but I have done a lot of experimenting.


The cats meow .. 👍


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> The cats meow .. 👍


Speaking of which….is Finnegan still supervisor and SVP of quality control at Palad Industries, Inc.?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Speaking of which….is Finnegan still supervisor and SVP of quality control at Palad Industries, Inc.?


I am taking a break from electronics so Finnegan is relaxing with me. He still follows me around but is not allowed to go along on trips to help my renters and such.😎


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am taking a break from electronics so Finnegan is relaxing with me. He still follows me around but is not allowed to go along on trips to help my renters and such.😎


You wouldn’t want him to get any ideas about “squatters’ rights”….


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> If you have a Darkvoice without modifications it is wise to stick to such tubes. I get so much hum in a standard DV that only a few tubes might work and quality of sound goes out the window.😀


I second that especially on the 110Volt version, the EU 220V version is not that delicate though.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My likes and dislikes are pretty specific and while I own a DV I need to modify it before I could listen much.😏


Been due long time now 🤨🤨


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get back to my DV but right now my interests lie in art history and other areas.


Sounds a major deviation, we won't like losing you around 😃😃. at this age some other guys may buy a Harley too 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> i know this is leading a bit down the tube rolling rabbit hole.  for rich, warm, smooth sound,  i'd look for an RCA Gray Glass 6SN7 (or VT-231).   Or the National Union Black Glass 6SN7GT.  I'm not sure how they price these days -- they used to be reasonably priced before.  Or sometimes you can find these tubes - just rebranded with a different name and sometimes you can get a bargain that way as well.


RCA Grey glass are a good all-round performers in a DV


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I wasn't far behind, we had a slide rule in the house but it was my mother's and I typed all of my papers on an electric typewriter. Computers at the time were rare and only used for looking up library reference materials or teching the mundane programming languages of the time, i.e. Cobol, Pascal, and the dreaded FORTRAN.


Used all those languages during my Uni years 😆😆😆


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I second that especially on the 110Volt version, the EU 220V version is not that delicate though.


I have been asked about selling my amps in Europe and changing them over to 220 is not difficult but testing them and knowing they sound the same is troublesome. Perhaps DV had those issues on the 117 v version for the US?


----------



## gazzington

Thinking of getting a dark voice for my hd6xx and beyer cans. What are great easy to buy tube upgrades? I know nothing about tubes! Links to tubes would be appreciated


----------



## Galapac

gazzington said:


> Thinking of getting a dark voice for my hd6xx and beyer cans. What are great easy to buy tube upgrades? I know nothing about tubes! Links to tubes would be appreciated


Here are some I have tried, YMMV.
Post in thread 'Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII'
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16232433


----------



## Slade01

gazzington said:


> Thinking of getting a dark voice for my hd6xx and beyer cans. What are great easy to buy tube upgrades? I know nothing about tubes! Links to tubes would be appreciated



Are you looking at a certain budget for tubes?  They can range from 20-200+ dollars a piece.  Also, do you have a preference in music genre (and looking for tubes to be mids/vocal focused, or need that bass sound, or looking for an all-arounder)?  Gotta have a little more specifics cuz there are alot of combinations/possibilities.


----------



## gazzington

Slade01 said:


> Are you looking at a certain budget for tubes?  They can range from 20-200+ dollars a piece.  Also, do you have a preference in music genre (and looking for tubes to be mids/vocal focused, or need that bass sound, or looking for an all-arounder)?  Gotta have a little more specifics cuz there are alot of combinations/possibilities.


I think I’m looking for an all rounder. I listen to classical, edm, metal, jazz, rock. Basically most genres!  A selection of different prices would be awesome.


----------



## Slade01

gazzington said:


> I think I’m looking for an all rounder. I listen to classical, edm, metal, jazz, rock. Basically most genres!  A selection of different prices would be awesome.



As previously mentioned here recently and often - one of the best all-around tubes is the Melz 1578 (perforated anode aka - holed plates).  They are usually 100-150 usd depending on age and condition, but they enhance the sound across the spectrum.  This is for the driver tube (6SN7 equivalent).

Maybe others could recommend other 6SN7 tubes.  I'd stick with ones that are more about the mids and uppers.  For me personally, I like Raytheon VT-231 and Brimar 6SN7s for those.  It's all preference of course.  Some NOS tung-sols might do well here too.  I have no clue about pricing for these tubes these days.

If you have no clue about tubes and want to learn about them - the thread is a good start:  The Reference 6SN7

Also for the power tubes (6AS7) - ideally for you, probably a Chatham 6080 preferably with Graphite Plates or a Tung Sol or Cetron 7236.  I think these give compliment most of those genres well (faster, more energy, better attack).    These tubes I mention are getting more rare too as these are all NOS/vintage tubes.

I'm sure I could cause a debate, but discussions are good and opinions always vary.  YMMV as well. 

I don't have alot of experience with the new production tubes (ones being produced today).  Only with the Shuaguang Black Treasure CV-181z, which is what I would probably get.  If you checked out @Galapac 's tube pairings, his combo 5 was always a favorite of mine when it came to the  CV-181z/6N13S (which is a russian 6as7 equivalent).  

I'd definitely give at least the 6sn7 reference thread a read to start getting a feel for all the various brands/types out there.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Aug 13, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have been asked about selling my amps in Europe and changing them over to 220 is not difficult but testing them and knowing they sound the same is troublesome. Perhaps DV had those issues on the 117 v version for the US?


As far as I heard on many forums, the DV is originally designed for 220V and than tweaked on the Power Supply level to work on the 117V which reported to cause hum with a majority of tubes. Keep in mind that the DV is not totally silent originally but nearly non existent on "normal" audible levels.
The tube bunch you sent me was all perfectly silent on the DV which you originally tested them but still with all other tubes I bought no noticeable hum was present, only maybe a Raytheon which I had to re-solder.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> As far as I heard on many forums, the DV is originally designed for 220V and than tweaked on the Power Supply level to work on the 117V which reported to cause hum with a majority of tubes. Keep in mind that the DV is not totally silent originally but nearly non existent on "normal" audible levels.
> The tube bunch you sent me was all perfectly silent on the DV which you originally tested them but still with all other tubes I bought no noticeable hum was present, only maybe a Raytheon which I had to re-solder.


I had not read much about the amp, I got one in order to get measurements so I could build an extension for @bcowen. I listened pretty carefully to mine to get you some tubes with less noise compared to the Russian counterparts. The amp has too much noise for me in its present state so I have no listened to it since. 

I will do my own mods one of these days to clean up the hum and make it an amp more to my liking. I just need to settle on a wooden case design that will work well for me.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> As previously mentioned here recently and often - one of the best all-around tubes is the Melz 1578 (perforated anode aka - holed plates).  They are usually 100-150 usd depending on age and condition, but they enhance the sound across the spectrum.  This is for the driver tube (6SN7 equivalent).
> 
> Maybe others could recommend other 6SN7 tubes.  I'd stick with ones that are more about the mids and uppers.  For me personally, I like Raytheon VT-231 and Brimar 6SN7s for those.  It's all preference of course.  Some NOS tung-sols might do well here too.  I have no clue about pricing for these tubes these days.
> 
> ...


I own 7236's and the gain is certainly higher than 6080's and 6as7's but I am more likely to use 5998's and 5998A's from Tung Sol and GE respectively. I also have a fondness for the Chatham 6as7 bottom getter.

Price wise, there are always the early 1950's Foton's (Russian) but you can expect a lot of additional hum/noise with those as you might with Melz tubes. YMMV but I sure got it. 
That was even after extensive re-solder of the tube pins which I perform on most all the Melz and Fotons I own.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 13, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Price wise, there are always the early 1950's Foton's (Russian) but you can expect a lot of additional hum/noise with those as you might with Melz tubes. YMMV but I sure got it.
> That was even after extensive re-solder of the tube pins which I perform on most all the Melz and Fotons I own.


Although it's no secret that '50's vintage Foton 6N8S's are some of my favorite tubes, I would _not_ recommend them for use in an unmodded DV.  Beyond the high level of hum and noise there was a loud buzz that overrode the music with 3 different ones I tried.  Adding the cathode bypass caps took care of it entirely, but without those caps it's a total non-starter (at least it was in my DV).  I had no such issues with the '63 Melz 1578. While it had a slightly higher level of background noise (mostly hiss) than some other 6SN7's before adding the capacitors, it was really pretty quiet overall with none of the buzz problems of the Foton.  Why just the Foton?  I have no clue...all 3 had resoldered pins, and all 3 were totally quiet in the Incubus and Vali 2 amps.  Perhaps the Russians hated the Chinese in the early 1950's?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Although it's no secret that '50's vintage Foton 6N8S's are some of my favorite tubes, I would _not_ recommend them for use in an unmodded DV.  Beyond the high level of hum and noise there was a loud buzz that overrode the music with 3 different ones I tried.  Adding the cathode bypass caps took care of it entirely, but without those caps it's a total non-starter (at least it was in my DV).  I had no such issues with the '63 Melz 1578. While it had a slightly higher level of background noise (mostly hiss) than some other 6SN7's before adding the capacitors, it was really pretty quiet overall with none of the buzz problems of the Foton.  Why just the Foton?  I have no clue...all 3 had resoldered pins, and all 3 were totally quiet in the Incubus and Vali 2 amps.  Perhaps the Russians hated the Chinese in the early 1950's?


Did we just agree on something. Oh wait it’s Friday the 13th, never mind.😜😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Did we just agree on something. Oh wait it’s Friday the 13th, never mind.😜😜




I had a really tough day at work.  I didn't see your post.  I thought I was replying to another thread. My cat threw up on the carpet and distracted me.  I had an aneurism.  Aliens woke up in Area 51.  Smoke from the wildfires in California obscured my view.  The dog ate my homework.  <----  one of those, sort of probably.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I had a really tough day at work.  I didn't see your post.  I thought I was replying to another thread. My cat threw up on the carpet and distracted me.  I had an aneurism.  Aliens woke up in Area 51.  Smoke from the wildfires in California obscured my view.  The dog ate my homework.  <----  one of those, sort of probably.


Lol I had a wonderful day talking to an optometrist about chromatic aberration, fun stuff.


----------



## Galapac

I solved my DV hum issues and bought this…






Now none of my tubes hum, even my Fotons, lol.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I had a wonderful day talking to an optometrist about chromatic aberration, fun stuff.


Yeah.  Sound distortion and tubes make for better convos than color distortion.


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> I solved my DV hum issues and bought this…
> 
> 
> 
> Now none of my tubes hum, even my Fotons, lol.



I'm with you. I'm kind of at the end of my wits with the humming/DV.  I may be upgrading to something that solves that very issue also.  That's a Feliks amp right?


----------



## Galapac (Aug 13, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I'm with you. I'm kind of at the end of my wits with the humming/DV.  I may be upgrading to something that solves that very issue also.  That's a Feliks amp right?


Yes a Euforia and it was a no brainer since it uses 6AS7/6SN7 and equivalents, which any DV owner has in spades.
Drop dead quiet and it might be their proprietary toroidal transformer?
Upscale audio has a video with Kevin D. showing the insides, one pretty amp.
With adapter some are using the Euforia with KT88s, believe it or not!

I only mention it here on this thread as it shares the same tubes X 2.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Yeah.  Sound distortion and tubes make for better convos than color distortion.


Like @Galapac I get no hum in other amps. 😜 Four of mine have held up well  with over 1900 types of 6SN7 equivalents. We do not get crazy with experimentation though, no reason to.😀


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I had a really tough day at work.  I didn't see your post.  I thought I was replying to another thread. My cat threw up on the carpet and distracted me.  I had an aneurism.  Aliens woke up in Area 51.  Smoke from the wildfires in California obscured my view.  The dog ate my homework. _I had a craving for some ChiFi solid-state glare.  _<----  one of those, sort of probably.


FTFY….[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I'm with you. I'm kind of at the end of my wits with the humming/DV.


The real torture would be if you think that you hear the DV humming when it’s powered off…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I had a wonderful day talking to an optometrist about chromatic *aberration,* fun stuff.


Oh crap.  Why did you have to bring @Ripper2860 into this?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> _I had an aneurism from listening to ChiFi solid-state gear.  Actually, any solid state, regardless of manufacturing locale._





jonathan c said:


> FTFY….[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]



FTFY back.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh crap.  Why did you have to bring @Ripper2860 into this?


I have not heard much out of either of you lately. Are you two still in ownership squabbles about your inflatable friend?😜😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard much out of either of you lately. Are you two still in ownership squabbles about your inflatable friend?😜😜


Mannequin a trois?…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard much out of either of you lately. Are you two still in ownership squabbles about your inflatable friend?😜😜


ROFL!  I would never intentionally deprive someone of their main joy in life, even @Ripper2860 .


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I had not read much about the amp, I got one in order to get measurements so I could build an extension for @bcowen. I listened pretty carefully to mine to get you some tubes with less noise compared to the Russian counterparts. The amp has too much noise for me in its present state so I have no listened to it since.
> 
> I will do my own mods one of these days to clean up the hum and make it an amp more to my liking. I just need to settle on a wooden case design that will work well for me.


I believe the wooden case is the base of your re-invented DV, from there am not sure how much the DV will still resemble itself till the point where the hum will seize existing 😁.
Probably the end result will be an Incubus 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Although it's no secret that '50's vintage Foton 6N8S's are some of my favorite tubes, I would _not_ recommend them for use in an unmodded DV.  Beyond the high level of hum and noise there was a loud buzz that overrode the music with 3 different ones I tried.  Adding the cathode bypass caps took care of it entirely, but without those caps it's a total non-starter (at least it was in my DV).  I had no such issues with the '63 Melz 1578. While it had a slightly higher level of background noise (mostly hiss) than some other 6SN7's before adding the capacitors, it was really pretty quiet overall with none of the buzz problems of the Foton.  Why just the Foton?  I have no clue...all 3 had resoldered pins, and all 3 were totally quiet in the Incubus and Vali 2 amps.  Perhaps the Russians hated the Chinese in the early 1950's?


Though the cathode bypass method may have some negative effect as far as I've heard ???? 🙄🙄


----------



## HTSkywalker (Aug 14, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I solved my DV hum issues and bought this…
> 
> 
> 
> Now none of my tubes hum, even my Fotons, lol.


A Feliks 😍😍😍
But there is no fun in not owning a DV and keep guessing what to do with the hum 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Yes a Euforia and it was a no brainer since it uses 6AS7/6SN7 and equivalents, which any DV owner has in spades.
> Drop dead quiet and it might be their proprietary toroidal transformer?
> Upscale audio has a video with Kevin D. showing the insides, one pretty amp.
> With adapter some are using the Euforia with KT88s, believe it or not!
> ...


A friend of mine is also using its pre-amp section as a bonus with very nice results.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The real torture would be if you think that you hear the DV humming when it’s powered off…


Just unplug your hearing aid from your ears and it should solve it 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard much out of either of you lately. Are you two still in ownership squabbles about your inflatable friend?😜😜


Ohhhh some weird stuff going around 😍😍😍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe the wooden case is the base of your re-invented DV, from there am not sure how much the DV will still resemble itself till the point where the hum will seize existing 😁.
> Probably the end result will be an Incubus 😎😎


Then it will be the first *D*incub*v*s.   

(apologies to @jonathan c for the turf encroachment )


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Though the cathode bypass method may have some negative effect as far as I've heard ???? 🙄🙄


An effect, yes.  Adding the cap removes the negative feedback (in that gain stage) and also increases gain.  With everything else being equal, it is less linear (measurement-wise) due to removing that feedback loop.  How much so in the DV I have no idea as I don't have the tools to measure it.  But subjectively, I wasn't able to tell much difference in the overall sonics.  Granted I didn't do any meaningful A/B comparisons, and too much time passed between un-bypassed and bypassed configurations for my aural memory to have any value.  But I never felt things sounded necessarily better or worse, other than the removal of the last vestiges of hum and being able to use the Foton, which were both pluses in my situation.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> An effect, yes.  Adding the cap removes the negative feedback (in that gain stage) and also increases gain.  With everything else being equal, it is less linear (measurement-wise) due to removing that feedback loop.  How much so in the DV I have no idea as I don't have the tools to measure it.  But subjectively, I wasn't able to tell much difference in the overall sonics.  Granted I didn't do any meaningful A/B comparisons, and too much time passed between un-bypassed and bypassed configurations for my aural memory to have any value.  But I never felt things sounded necessarily better or worse, other than the removal of the last vestiges of hum and being able to use the Foton, which were both pluses in my situation.


Seems it’s worth trying in this case, any specific set of instructions to do so and any recommended components used ?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems it’s worth trying in this case, any specific set of instructions to do so and any recommended components used ?


If you don't have any issues with hum, it might be best just to leave it as-is.  If hum is noticeable (or objectionable), then it's a pretty easy task.  I used 25v Nichicon 220uF audio grade electrolytics.  16v would be plenty sufficient -- I used the 25v because I already had them.  Going higher than even 25v certainly won't hurt anything, they'll just be bigger and probably more expensive.  The positive leads go to the cathodes on the socket (pins 3 and 6), and the negative leads go to the ground buss wire (where the other end of the cathode resistors on pins 3 and 6 are tied).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Then it will be the first *D*incub*v*s.
> 
> (apologies to @jonathan c for the turf encroachment )


A semi good usage of Latin letters since their "U" was the "V".


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A semi good usage of Latin letters since their "U" was the "V".


Semi???


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Semi???


Half of a quantity, one out of two. There are two "U"'s in Incubus.  

Speaking of amps I need to borrow a Feliks one of these days to try with Focal Utopias, it seems I was told they match up extremely well. I also wanted to try one side by side with one of my amps.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Half of a quantity, one out of two. There are two "U"'s in Incubus.
> 
> Speaking of amps I need to borrow a Feliks one of these days to try with Focal Utopias, it seems I was told they match up extremely well. I also wanted to try one side by side with one of my amps.


Two 'V's actually, but I've never been one to nitpick.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Then it will be the first *D*incub*v*s.
> 
> (apologies to @jonathan c for the turf encroachment )


You are not encroaching on my tvrf….the more, the merrier…🎉🎊🍾…


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Two 'V's actually, but I've never been one to nitpick.


Never.... 

Any new 6sn7's in your collection or are you not buying tubes again?  Oh and my tube tester is working gloriously so thanks again for freeing up some of my time on other projects.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You are not encroaching on my tvrf….the more, the merrier…🎉🎊🍾…


ROFL!!!  I see what you did there.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Half of a quantity, one out of two. There are two "U"'s in Incubus.
> 
> Speaking of amps I need to borrow a Feliks one of these days to try with Focal Utopias, it seems I was told they match up extremely well. I also wanted to try one side by side with one of my amps.


I have to tell you @Paladin79, they matchup extremely well, I listen to my Utopias more now because of the Euforia as they pair well.
I used to use eq with them on other amps, but no longer need to and the Utopias have “woken up” as they say.

I also use my VO with them too but there is some magic with the Focals.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Never....
> 
> Any new 6sn7's in your collection or are you not buying tubes again?  Oh and my tube tester is working gloriously so thanks again for freeing up some of my time on other projects.


No new 6SN7's.  Only thing I've purchased lately is the Brimar/Footscray CV4034 (12AT7) due to some hoarders collectors spendthrifts going apeschiit about them in another thread. I won't mention any names so I don't get @jonathan c in trouble.  They _are_ awesome tubes...almost makes the Vali 2 sound like a Lyr 3 which probably sounds like crazy talk.  I don't have the Lyr 3 any longer to make a direct comparison, so I'll just say it elevates the Vali 2's performance to a level I haven't heard before...and has displaced the Frankentube as my favorite in that little amp.

Glad to hear the tester is still working.  And even more glad I was able to fix it....I was totally stumped at one point but quite determined to be victorious.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I have to tell you @Paladin79, they matchup extremely well, I listen to my Utopias more now because of the Euforia as they pair well.
> I used to use eq with them on other amps, but no longer need to and the Utopias have “woken up” as they say.
> 
> I also use my VO with them too but there is some magic with the Focals.


I tried VO's and of course I love the look of natural wood but the Focals are my favorite as well with my amps. Before Focals I kept feeling like there was a ceiling on the upper end of my amps, not so with Utopias.

  I kind of wish we could use Focals for my 6sn7 blind comparison but most people had HD800's so we are using those and they were used for preliminary testing to arrive at the final 52.  I do not use EQ myself but then I design amps for sound I like and can get enough variation with different tubes to tweak the sound a bit if I so desire.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No new 6SN7's.  Only thing I've purchased lately is the Brimar/Footscray CV4034 (12AT7) due to some hoarders collectors spendthrifts going apeschiit about them in another thread. I won't mention any names so I don't get @jonathan c in trouble.  They _are_ awesome tubes...almost makes the Vali 2 sound like a Lyr 3 which probably sounds like crazy talk.  I don't have the Lyr 3 any longer to make a direct comparison, so I'll just say it elevates the Vali 2's performance to a level I haven't heard before...and has displaced the Frankentube as my favorite in that little amp.
> 
> Glad to hear the tester is still working.  And even more glad I was able to fix it....I was totally stumped at one point but quite determined to be victorious.


I no longer have my Lyr 3 either since I was rarely using it. I kept a Mjolnir in my main system and still have a Vali 2 somewhere but I have the sound I want in both headphone and power amps. I have heard most any 6sn7 known to man so my searches are pretty much over except for the rare variations of my favorite tube. It will be fun to see if fifty other people like it as much as me but with the Delta variant out there things are once again going into lock down around here and I am not going to knowingly expose anyone to risk. If I can ever get clearance to share my groups test tracks I will try to send them your way. You have always been generous and helpful.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> If I can ever get clearance to share my groups test tracks I will try to send them your way. You have always been generous and helpful.


Awwww…you _Really_ do like each other…pashaw…🤣


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 14, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Awwww…you _Really_ do like each other…pashaw…🤣


The day is not over yet.😜

Seriously Bill has gifted me many tubes so I help out where I can. He has one of seven Incubus amps I donated. I had to build his sideways to match his outlook on life.🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have always been generous and helpful.


As have you!  And to think it all started with a Cary amp and now we're in a Darkvoice thread.  Lowered expectations, I suppose.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Awwww…you _Really_ do like each other…pashaw…🤣


It's just an illusion.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The day is not over yet.😜
> 
> Seriously Bill has gifted me many tubes so I help out where I can. He has one of seven Incubus amps I donated. I had to build his sideways to match his outlook on life.🤪


I rest my case.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Awwww…you _Really_ do like each other…pashaw…🤣


Just do not let _une amie gonflable_ ruin a good thing…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Just do not let _une amie gonflable_ ruin a good thing…


Now my brain hurts.  

Today I am swapping in a 1961 Melz 1578 with my standard Tung Sol 5998, listening to Fear Inoculum by Tool. It goes well with my current foray into metafiction and the works of John Fowles.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Just do not let _une amie gonflable_ ruin a good thing…


And here all along I thought that was Latin, not Panjabi.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And here all along I thought that was Latin, not Panjabi.


You were not far off, it is a Romance language.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You were not far off, it is a Romance language.


What are you saying, Tom?   

Just so there are no misperceptions, the inflatable romance thing involves @Ripper2860 only.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> What are you saying, Tom?
> 
> Just so there are no misperceptions, the inflatable romance thing involves @Ripper2860 only.


This inflatable romance thing has been blown up out of proportion 😆😒…


----------



## dstarr3

Drop has the DV on sale for $250 right now, I placed my order. Are socket savers recommended on the DV? I have the Liquid Platinum amp and it has an absolute death grip on anything you put in its sockets, so savers are strongly recommended with that. Is this recommended for the DV, as well, or will I be fine without?


----------



## therremans

dstarr3 said:


> Drop has the DV on sale for $250 right now, I placed my order. Are socket savers recommended on the DV? I have the Liquid Platinum amp and it has an absolute death grip on anything you put in its sockets, so savers are strongly recommended with that. Is this recommended for the DV, as well, or will I be fine without?


many have used without. i would recommend it though, because the stock ones can quickly become pretty loose with tube rolling. we have posts here on swapping them out too, if you are ever inclined to do so.


----------



## therremans (Aug 15, 2021)

Bendix 6080 63' / Foton 53' 

*Bendix *Red Bank - "These super-tubes were made by what to most people was an obscure division of Bendix Aviation Corporation. The plant in which they were made was originally called the Bendix Red Bank Division, in Eatontown, N.J." I always thought these were German made, but it seems not. This tube is my favorite power tube in this amp, it brings out the best of anything paired with it. It really is priceless.

*Foton *is USSR made. It's crisp and clean with an emphasis on the upper end, definitely plays well with rock but anything if the power tube is balancing out the frequencies. The Bendix balances it out quite a bit and I prefer this with that tube than the 5998. Thanks to @bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Bendix 6080 63' / Foton 53'
> 
> *Bendix *Red Bank - "These super-tubes were made by what to most people was an obscure division of Bendix Aviation Corporation. The plant in which they were made was originally called the Bendix Red Bank Division, in Eatontown, N.J." I always thought these were German made, but it seems not. This tube is my favorite power tube in this amp, it brings out the best of anything paired with it. It really is priceless.
> 
> *Foton *is USSR made. It's crisp and clean with an emphasis on the upper end, definitely plays well with rock but anything if the power tube is balancing out the frequencies. The Bendix balances it out quite a bit and I prefer this with that tube than the 5998. Thanks to @bcowen.



Sweet!  I seem to be fairly well stocked on the Fotons , but I don't have a slotted graphite plate Bendix. And here I was being (mostly) successful at staying on the wagon.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Now my brain hurts.
> 
> Today I am swapping in a 1961 Melz 1578 with my standard Tung Sol 5998, listening to Fear Inoculum by Tool. It goes well with my current foray into metafiction and the works of John Fowles.


Somewhere, for reasons he can't begin to explain, Maynard is feeling all warm and fuzzy


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  I seem to be fairly well stocked on the Fotons , but I don't have a slotted graphite plate Bendix. And here I was being (mostly) successful at staying on the wagon.






yes 
nos


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> yes
> nos


Grrrrr.  I am officially removing you from my list of potential sponsors.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you don't have any issues with hum, it might be best just to leave it as-is.  If hum is noticeable (or objectionable), then it's a pretty easy task.  I used 25v Nichicon 220uF audio grade electrolytics.  16v would be plenty sufficient -- I used the 25v because I already had them.  Going higher than even 25v certainly won't hurt anything, they'll just be bigger and probably more expensive.  The positive leads go to the cathodes on the socket (pins 3 and 6), and the negative leads go to the ground buss wire (where the other end of the cathode resistors on pins 3 and 6 are tied).


Thanks, seems straight forward 👍👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A semi good usage of Latin letters since their "U" was the "V".


Gives it a classy touch 👍👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Gives it a classy touch 👍👍


The guy who made the brass plates is Italian and his Latin is much better than mine so that is one of the choices he offered. He also made me another logo on another larger brass plate. I helped him out with an outboard VU meter box once so he helps me on occasion.


----------



## DeweyCH

Hello all! Just popping in to say thanks again to the regulars in this topic who have helped me so much over the last year-ish. I haven't been in b/c I haven't had any time to really enjoy or work on the DV (it's been passed by my Crack and Liquid Platinum).

Anyways... thanks!


----------



## SHIMACM

But has anyone here had the opportunity to hear this combination Mullard 6080 and Fivre 6c5g?

What a phenomenal set in Darkvoice.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> But has anyone here had the opportunity to hear this combination Mullard 6080 and Fivre 6c5g?
> 
> What a phenomenal set in Darkvoice.



Does anyone have a pair to sell me?  (Cheaper than langrex)


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Does anyone have a pair to sell me?  (Cheaper than langrex)



But cheaper than Langrex?! Hard huh?!

When the Langrex's run out, look what's left......


https://www.ebay.com/itm/265106418729?hash=item3db992ec29:g:BF4AAOSwBaRgYy1M


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> But cheaper than Langrex?! Hard huh?!
> 
> When the Langrex's run out, look what's left......
> 
> ...


Have they gone up at Langrex? I know people say the black and brown base are no different. Do they all have the same getter? I assume so


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Have they gone up at Langrex? I know people say the black and brown base are no different. Do they all have the same getter? I assume so



No. Still cost the same price. The point is, Langrex still has a decent stock of them. But it sure is a tube that will go up a lot in price when their stock runs out. I never had the brown base. I've heard comments saying that the black base is older. Some say that the black base sounds better, others already say that there is no difference.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> No. Still cost the same price. The point is, Langrex still has a decent stock of them. But it sure is a tube that will go up a lot in price when their stock runs out. I never had the brown base. I've heard comments saying that the black base is older. Some say that the black base sounds better, others already say that there is no difference.


I agree.. but I think they have a healthy stock due to it costing $140 shipped for a pair.


----------



## maketus

RCA 6SL7GT black plate nos coin base . thinking  how it sounds like , maybe i would buy one


----------



## bcowen

maketus said:


> RCA 6SL7GT black plate nos coin base . thinking  how it sounds like , maybe i would buy one


Not sure how a 6S*L*7 with 3.5x the gain would do in the Darkvoice...never tried one.  I have both RCA and Sylvania coin base 6S*N*7's, and both are distinctly unremarkable to my ears.  Perhaps there are different versions that sound better, but my trials with the first ones didn't give me much interest in exploring further.  YMMV of course...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Not sure how a 6S*L*7 with 3.5x the gain would do in the Darkvoice...never tried one.  I have both RCA and Sylvania coin base 6S*N*7's, and both are distinctly unremarkable to my ears.  Perhaps there are different versions that sound better, but my trials with the first ones didn't give me much interest in exploring further.  YMMV of course...


…unremarkable with distinction? 🤔…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …unremarkable with distinction? 🤔…


That too.  Then there's GE's that would be remarkable with extinction.


----------



## maketus (Aug 29, 2021)

ok. then i dont buy that RCA 6SL7GT black plate nos coin base.   Also thinking what different tubes satrt to test with adapter , but not sure what is cheapest way- too many options, 6j5 way or somenthing else


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That too.  Then there's GE's that would be remarkable with extinction.


How about GEs being execrable with distinction?…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That too.  Then there's GE's that would be remarkable with extinction.


Coz of you I became a Raytheon T Plate preacher 😎😎


----------



## MacMan31

I am considering a Darkvoice as an amp to use with my HD6XX and ZMF Aeolus. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...6se-tube-amp-upgraded-tubes-cv181-t-nos-7236/  I know that other have said it works well the Sennheiser 6 series but what about ZMF Aeolus?


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> I am considering a Darkvoice as an amp to use with my HD6XX and ZMF Aeolus. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...6se-tube-amp-upgraded-tubes-cv181-t-nos-7236/  I know that other have said it works well the Sennheiser 6 series but what about ZMF Aeolus?


Don't know how it would do with the Aeolus, but it drives the Atticus quite nicely.  

That's a pretty steep price for a used amp.  Not sure what shipping/import duties are into Canada, but Drop has them for $250 (US), and it looks like they are in stock.

https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Don't know how it would do with the Aeolus, but it drives the Atticus quite nicely.
> 
> *That's a pretty steep price for a used amp*.  Not sure what shipping/import duties are into Canada, but Drop has them for $250 (US), and it looks like they are in stock.
> 
> https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se


You're new to Canada aren't you?
Yup, we pretty much get gouged on everything. Exchange rate alone is going to add 30%

Your Atticus treating you any better now with some break-in?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You're new to Canada aren't you?
> Yup, we pretty much get gouged on everything. Exchange rate alone is going to add 30%
> 
> Your Atticus treating you any better now with some break-in?


I know where Canada is.  Does that count?   

The Atticus have opened up _very_ nicely.  Initially the bass lacked extension and had no real body to it (anemic, as it were) and macrodynamics were missing in action.  After about 50 hours there was noticeable progress, and after 100 the bass began plumbing the depths with power and slam, and dynamic contrasts have become in some cases almost startling.  Improvements have been more incremental since then (I'm up to about 200 hours), but at this point I'm enjoying them a lot.  I swap the HD-6XX's in every now and then just to be sure it's the headphones themselves breaking in and not my ears breaking into the headphones.  Most definitely the former.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I know where Canada is.  Does that count?


I like Canada Dry ginger ale. What about that?😆


----------



## Mr Trev (Aug 30, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I like Canada Dry ginger ale. What about that?😆


As long as it's mostly rye, you're good.🥴


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> I like Canada Dry ginger ale. What about that?😆


I saw a sign that said "Drink Canada Dry", so I have friends that have been trying to do that for 50 years.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I like Canada Dry ginger ale. What about that?😆


That's made in Detroit.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's made in Detroit.


Are you thinking of Vernor’s?…


----------



## therremans

This a good melz? Non perforated plates, I think it’s a 56’ link


----------



## therremans

Schiit Bifrost running cool now thanks to an active cooler that uses refrigerant and a thermal pad. The chassis is now cold to the touch when at operating temperature.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Schiit Bifrost running cool now thanks to an active cooler that uses refrigerant and a thermal pad. The chassis is now cold to the touch when at operating temperature.


Sweet. Gotta figure out a way to attach one of those to the heatpipes on my laptop


----------



## therremans (Sep 3, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet. Gotta figure out a way to attach one of those to the heatpipes on my laptop


That is exactly what it’s used for. Well for the laptop chassis. Product link


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> This a good melz? Non perforated plates, I think it’s a 56’ link


@Paladin79 is of course the reigning expert on Melz, but I have several solid plates (non-1578's) from the '50's and several from the '60's.  The '50's are definitely better to my ears. May not hold true with the true 1578's, but for the regular 6N8S's that's my experience.  Price isn't bad these days for a pair...I think I paid around $30 per tube a couple years ago when I was hoarding purchasing them...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Schiit Bifrost running cool now thanks to an active cooler that uses refrigerant and a thermal pad. The chassis is now cold to the touch when at operating temperature.


Nice!  How loud is the fan?  Or does it have adjustable speed?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Nice!  How loud is the fan?  Or does it have adjustable speed?


Non adjustable and it is definitely audible. My video clip makes it sound louder than it really is so I won’t scare you away. It sounds like a laptop when it gets hot. It’s audible but not too annoying.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> This a good melz? Non perforated plates, I think it’s a 56’ link


I cannot tell by the photo if those have the shiny black plates or the dull grey plates. You want the shiny black plates, they have all the characteristics of the perforated plate but they have great balance over the entire audio spectrum. I own a 1954 and 1958's so those could well be some amazing tubes. I would take those over the perforated plate any day except for the 1961 1578.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 is of course the reigning expert on Melz, but I have several solid plates (non-1578's) from the '50's and several from the '60's.  The '50's are definitely better to my ears. May not hold true with the true 1578's, but for the regular 6N8S's that's my experience.  Price isn't bad these days for a pair...I think I paid around $30 per tube a couple years ago when I was hoarding purchasing them...


I try not to throw around the words "holy grail" very often but your heard one of the 1958's I own that have a similar structure. If those are shiney black plates you guys best buy them before I do.    Oh, and the one on the left is the one you want, the tube on the right is not the same thing.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I try not to throw around the words "holy grail" very often but your heard one of the 1958's I own that have a similar structure. If those are shiney black plates you guys best buy them before I do.    Oh, and the one on the left is the one you want, the tube on the right is not the same thing.


I’m asking him now and I’ll get it.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I’m asking him now and I’ll get it.


Even if you just get a single and have to buy both, that is still a good deal. 1578s can go for as much as $150 and do not have the same sound.  I know this seller by the way, and I trust him.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I try not to throw around the words "holy grail" very often but your heard one of the 1958's I own that have a similar structure. If those are shiney black plates you guys best buy them before I do.    Oh, and the one on the left is the one you want, the tube on the right is not the same thing.


Didn't even notice the metal top mica supports at the top of the left one.  All my 1950's versions have the plastic supports like the one on the right.  Question is what tubes you'll actually get -- two as shown in the photo, or two with the plastic supports?


----------



## therremans (Sep 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Didn't even notice the metal top mica supports at the top of the left one.  All my 1950's versions have the plastic supports like the one on the right.  Question is what tubes you'll actually get -- two as shown in the photo, or two with the plastic supports?


Yeah, I was assuming you made the that mistake with your response. Should receive those tubes.

edit: I see what you mean.. he had two lots of two. But only one set pictured. I’ll ask


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, I was assuming you made the that mistake with your response. Should receive those tubes.


This is what happens with 70 hour workweeks.  Or maybe old age.  Or both.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Didn't even notice the metal top mica supports at the top of the left one.  All my 1950's versions have the plastic supports like the one on the right.  Question is what tubes you'll actually get -- two as shown in the photo, or two with the plastic supports?


The tubes with plastic supports can be ok but the wondrous tubes are exactly like 1578s but with solid plates instead of perforated and they have the black plates I mentioned.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> This is what happens with 70 hour workweeks.  Or maybe old age.  Or both.


You just need your meds.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is what happens with 70 hour workweeks.  Or maybe old age.  Or both.


Dang you went from a life of leisure to long weeks? I guess it balances out.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 3, 2021)

therremans said:


> Yeah, I was assuming you made the that mistake with your response. Should receive those tubes.
> 
> edit: I see what you mean.. he had two lots of two. But only one set pictured. I’ll ask


I agree with @Paladin79 that the one as shown on the left is quite special.  Solid (non-holey) shiny black plates and the metal (spring) top mica supports.  Kind of a mutation between a 1578 and a regular 6N8S.  The regular ones that I have are quite nice, but seriously trumped by the mutant.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Dang you went from a life of leisure to long weeks? I guess it balances out.


Actually it kind of sucks.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually it kind of sucks.


I like to start out slowly, and taper off from there.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I like to start out slowly, and taper off from there.


LOL!  I'd be happy with just a 60 hour week.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Dang you went from a life of leisure to long weeks? I guess it balances out.


Auto-biasing?…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'd be happy with just a 60 hour week.


Look at it this way…you get to take 70 hours to do what could be done in 60 hours…less stress, right? 😜🤪


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Actually it kind of sucks.


Are your long weeks vacuums?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Look at it this way…you get to take 70 hours to do what could be done in 60 hours…less stress, right? 😜🤪


You sound like my boss.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You sound like my boss.


You are up early, I have been up since 6:30 because Finnegan decided to go after anything smaller than a toaster in my bedroom. If it was on a table or hutch, it was immediately on the floor.


----------



## therremans (Sep 4, 2021)

Not the best quality photos. But he responded. It is the exact tubes pictured. He doesn’t seem to think they sound any different. It also looks like gray plates to me on metal support tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are up early, I have been up since 6:30 because Finnegan decided to go after anything smaller than a toaster in my bedroom. If it was on a table or hutch, it was immediately on the floor.


Why do you have a toaster in your bedroom?  

(wait...I don't want to know)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Not the best quality photos. But he responded. It is the exact tubes pictured. He doesn’t seem to think they sound any different. It also looks like gray plates to me on metal support tube.


Interesting.  It's really hard to tell from the photos provided exactly what the plates look like.  If they are truly grey plates with the metal mica supports, perhaps you've come across a mutation that even @Paladin79 hasn't hoarded collected.  Can't say I agree with the seller that all non-1578, pre-1968 6N8S's sound the same....the solid black shiny plate, metal mica support version that @Paladin79 sent around was in a different league altogether than the 'standard' 6N8S's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Why do you have a toaster in your bedroom?
> 
> (wait...I don't want to know)


I like toast.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  It's really hard to tell from the photos provided exactly what the plates look like.  If they are truly grey plates with the metal mica supports, perhaps you've come across a mutation that even @Paladin79 hasn't hoarded collected.  Can't say I agree with the seller that all non-1578, pre-1968 6N8S's sound the same....the solid black shiny plate, metal mica support version that @Paladin79 sent around was in a different league altogether than the 'standard' 6N8S's.


I sent another message. Yes I’ve typically always been able to distinguish a sound difference in plate color.

@Paladin79 what is your favorite power tube with the 1578? (Perforated plates). Mine is so neutral that I assume the 5998 is usually a good pairing.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  It's really hard to tell from the photos provided exactly what the plates look like.  If they are truly grey plates with the metal mica supports, perhaps you've come across a mutation that even @Paladin79 hasn't hoarded collected.  Can't say I agree with the seller that all non-1578, pre-1968 6N8S's sound the same....the solid black shiny plate, metal mica support version that @Paladin79 sent around was in a different league altogether than the 'standard' 6N8S's.


I have the grey plate but they are not remarkable. I loaned a 58 solid black plate to Mr. Cowen and it nearly took a visit from one of my associates with a baseball bat to get it back.  Several other friends heard it and all reports were very positive.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I have the grey plate but they are not remarkable. I loaned a 58 solid black plate to Mr. Cowen and it nearly took a visit from one of my associates with a baseball bat to get it back.  Several other friends heard it and all reports were very positive.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 4, 2021)

therremans said:


> I sent another message. Yes I’ve typically always been able to distinguish a sound difference in plate color.
> 
> @Paladin79 what is your favorite power tube with the 1578? (Perforated plates). Mine is so neutral that I assume the 5998 is usually a good pairing.


There are very strong differences in the perforated plate versions made over a forty year period. My favorite of that type is the 1961. I am not a big fan of the 1978 and newer versions, the mids are very forward.

I am indeed listening to those tubes with 5998's, for more bass I use a GE 5998A but otherwise it is the Tung Sol. Mind you this is in one of my amps with Focal Utopias and there is nothing bland about the setup I use. The tubes can be highly accurate.

I cannot use said tubes in a DarkVoice amp, or Fotons for that matter because of noise issues but one day I will mod the DV.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> There are very strong differences in the perforated plate versions made over a forty year period. My favorite of that type is the 1961. I am not a big fan of the 1978 and newer version, the mids are very forward.
> 
> I am indeed listening to those tubes with 5998's, for more bass I use a GE 5998A but otherwise it is the Tung Sol. Mind you this is in one of my amps with Focal Utopias and there is nothing bland about the setup I use. The tubes can be highly accurate.


I’ve posted mine here earlier this year, it’s a 59’.


----------



## therremans

Does anyone have a spare GE 5998A?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 4, 2021)

therremans said:


> I’ve posted mine here earlier this year, it’s a 59’.
> I really like anything from 57-63, I have 1958 perforated and non-perforated.



I can only use one in a tube challenge friends and I are doing because the insides are so close so eight of us chose the 1958 solid plate as the best one to represent Melz and I own the most number of them so there are backups.

Here is a black plate and grey plate side by side, the grey plate does not have the ribbed plates so I really think the photo from Ebay is a black plate.


----------



## therremans

I now would like to compare that one to the solid black plate version. Something tells me that I will prefer it.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I now would like to compare that one to the solid black plate version. Something tells me that I will prefer it.


If there is a flaw in a tube my amp tends to show it, I get a little noise from the perforated plate versions, not so with the solid plate.  

I also own a perforated plate from 1954 that Bill pointed out, round micas, and mica supports at top. It is not too shabby for that style.


----------



## therremans (Sep 4, 2021)

Won this auction for $1.80  , now I can finally try the mouse ear tung-sol I guess. And I’ll test them all with a proper tester thanks to @bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have the grey plate but they are not remarkable. I loaned a 58 solid black plate to Mr. Cowen and it nearly took a visit from one of my associates with a baseball bat to get it back.  Several other friends heard it and all reports were very positive.


Oh puhleeeeze.  I sent it off to someone else immediately, +/- a month or two.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Does anyone have a spare GE 5998A?


Have you checked any nearby dumpsters recently?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Have you checked any nearby dumpsters recently?


Bill is just jealous and no extras, I had requests for them in my amps.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Won this auction for $1.80  , now I can finally try the mouse ear tung-sol I guess. And I’ll test them all with a proper tester thanks to @bcowen.


ROFL!!!  All 9 tubes for $7.75 including shipping?  Score!      Since he's offering partial refunds, tell him one tube is dead when you get them.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill is just jealous and no extras, I had requests for them in my amps.


    On the plus side, the Incubus is accomplished enough to make even bad tubes sound good. On the negative side, the Incubus sounds even more glorious with good tubes.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!  All 9 tubes for $7.75 including shipping?  Score!      Since he's offering partial refunds, tell him one tube is dead when you get them.  LOL!


Yeah, demand my 20 cents back via PayPal partial refund.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Does anyone have a spare GE 5998A?


Not sure if this is who all the lemmings purchased from , but this dude still has some available:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/121586619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Not sure if this is who all the lemmings purchased from , but this dude still has some available:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/121586619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR


Yeah I’ve seen them. But it’s about $40 overpriced.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are very strong differences in the perforated plate versions made over a forty year period. My favorite of that type is the 1961. I am not a big fan of the 1978 and newer versions, the mids are very forward.
> 
> I am indeed listening to those tubes with 5998's, for more bass I use a GE 5998A but otherwise it is the Tung Sol. Mind you this is in one of my amps with Focal Utopias and there is nothing bland about the setup I use. The tubes can be highly accurate.
> 
> I cannot use said tubes in a DarkVoice amp, or Fotons for that matter because of noise issues but one day I will mod the DV.


Other than very slight background noise, I had no real issues in the un-modded DV with either Melz I tried (a '63 1578 and a '58 regular 6N8S).  The Fotons were another story though....too much hum and buzz to be usable until I added the cathode bypass caps.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 4, 2021)

therremans said:


> Yeah I’ve seen them. But it’s about $40 overpriced.


 Well, you got a couple hundred $$ worth of tubes for $1.80.  Should be budgeted funds still available.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> On the plus side, the Incubus is accomplished enough to make even bad tubes sound good. On the negative side, the Incubus sounds even more glorious with good tubes.





therremans said:


> You just need your meds.





therremans said:


> Non adjustable and it is definitely audible. My video clip makes it sound louder than it really is so I won’t scare you away. It sounds like a laptop when it gets hot. It’s audible but not too annoying.





therremans said:


> Schiit Bifrost running cool now thanks to an active cooler that uses refrigerant and a thermal pad. The chassis is now cold to the touch when at operating temperature.





therremans said:


> Schiit Bifrost running cool now thanks to an active cooler that uses refrigerant and a thermal pad. The chassis is now cold to the touch when at operating temperature.


----------



## bcowen

You are a man of few words, @HTSkywalker .    Haven't seen much of you lately....everything good I hope?

Morning fare:  Chatham 6AS7G paired with a cryo-treated 1953 Foton.  The Foton hasn't been loved in a while, but every time I put it in I remember why I like it so much.  It has shortcomings compared to some loftier tubes, but it _never _fails to get the foot tapping regardless of the music genre.  As far as the cryo treating, well, yeah, I can't tell a damn bit of difference.  Maybe my hearing is shot, or maybe it just, um, doesn't make a damn bit of difference.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You are a man of few words, @HTSkywalker .    Haven't seen much of you lately....everything good I hope?
> 
> Morning fare:  Chatham 6AS7G paired with a cryo-treated 1953 Foton.  The Foton hasn't been loved in a while, but every time I put it in I remember why I like it so much.  It has shortcomings compared to some loftier tubes, but it _never _fails to get the foot tapping regardless of the music genre.  As far as the cryo treating, well, yeah, I can't tell a damn bit of difference.  Maybe my hearing is shot, or maybe it just, um, doesn't make a damn bit of difference.


Ok I will try that combo just to humor you, no cryo-treating though.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will try that combo just to humor you, no cryo-treating though.😜


We should do another blind challenge.  I'll bet you a steak dinner that I _can't_ tell the difference between a tube that's been cryo-treated and one that hasn't.


----------



## Deceneu808

Any good Melz on ebay right now ? From the info I've gathered here, none of the ones I found selling right now are the real deal


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Any good Melz on ebay right now ? From the info I've gathered here, none of the ones I found selling right now are the real deal


Are you looking for a (true) 1578 with the hole-y plates?


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> Are you looking for a (true) 1578 with the hole-y plates?


What's best in what order ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> What's best in what order ?


"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."   Godfather III

The best are extremely hard to find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174921925821?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=40a7f991dff144cbbde8bda188f92fd5&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=174921925821&itm=174921925821&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=Melz&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:9ceea14d-0e5b-11ec-b032-ee0d5e5a4896|parentrq:b68421c217b0ab9ca61dff81fff99c00|iid:1

The one on the left is one of the rare ones from what I can tell from the photo, you would end up with the lesser one on the right if you go that route.

Try for the perforated plates from1958-1963.  I will look around and see if I spot any.

These are proper 1963 versions but they do not go cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274405496479?hash=item3fe3d7969f:g:oQYAAOSw6cRgfTfe

I bought half a case of them and let friends have them at a low price but I only had them for a few weeks.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."   Godfather III
> 
> The best are extremely hard to find.
> 
> ...


I asked if the plates were gray or black in the first auction from earlier. I cannot tell from the photos. He hasn’t responded. Usually these Ukrainian or Russian sellers think I’m a bit crazy for asking these questions.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."   Godfather III
> 
> The best are extremely hard to find.
> 
> ...



At least I know what to look for in the future. I'm searching for a single to use in my H5. Thanks !


----------



## therremans

I would like to try out one of these. They are pretty rare.


----------



## Mr Trev (Sep 5, 2021)

therremans said:


> I would like to try out one of these. They are pretty rare.


They're rare now? (BCOWEN!! are you responsible for this)? Last time I went looking there were plenty to be had - pinched waist and otherwise. Maybe I should've bought one back then…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> They're rare now? (BCOWEN!! are you responsible for this)? Last time I went looking there were plenty to be had - pinched waist and otherwise. Maybe I should've bought one back then…


Man, why do I always get blamed for _everything_? I mean, other than because I probably should?  

I only have one, and it's not even a pinched waist.  Kind of forgot about it to be honest.  Tried it in the Lyr 3 where it sounded nice but didn't blow my socks off.  Haven't tried it in the DV or Incubus.  Perhaps I should. And the pinched waist versions might also be a very different animal than what I have...


----------



## bcowen

For your Sunday evening entertainment:





Hey, they were cheap.  Like $11 delivered for the pair.  I've seen some very favorable mentions of these in some other threads, so wanted to give them a spin without risking any serious money.  If these show any promise, I'll get some real ones.    They are 7-pin single triodes, so just need to get off my butt and put the adapter together.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> For your Sunday evening entertainment:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, they were cheap.  Like $11 delivered for the pair.  I've seen some very favorable mentions of these in some other threads, so wanted to give them a spin without risking any serious money.  If these show any promise, I'll get some real ones.    They are 7-pin single triodes, so just need to get off my butt and put the adapter together.


Curious to know how these sound. I could also make an adapter like this if needed


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> For your Sunday evening entertainment:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, they were cheap.  Like $11 delivered for the pair.  I've seen some very favorable mentions of these in some other threads, so wanted to give them a spin without risking any serious money.  If these show any promise, I'll get some real ones.    They are 7-pin single triodes, so just need to get off my butt and put the adapter together.


When you make the adapter can you take a few photos to show the process?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Sep 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You are a man of few words, @HTSkywalker .    Haven't seen much of you lately....everything good I hope?
> 
> Morning fare:  Chatham 6AS7G paired with a cryo-treated 1953 Foton.  The Foton hasn't been loved in a while, but every time I put it in I remember why I like it so much.  It has shortcomings compared to some loftier tubes, but it _never _fails to get the foot tapping regardless of the music genre.  As far as the cryo treating, well, yeah, I can't tell a damn bit of difference.  Maybe my hearing is shot, or maybe it just, um, doesn't make a damn bit of difference.


Hey @bcowen  thanks for asking, all is well.
Back Saturday from vacation in our Prague home with the family, lots of beer and endless grills(=Bigger belly 😁). Need to un-dust my music gear and back to business. Planned to go on a tube hunting spree in the Czech Republic but still was not able to do much with the post COVID era.
Hope all is well at your side too.
BTW a killer tube combo you have there 👍👍😍😍


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> When you make the adapter can you take a few photos to show the process?


Sure!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Curious to know how these sound. I could also make an adapter like this if needed


On the plus side, the 6C4WA's are cheap as dirt.  I need to do some studying on these as almost every listing on Ebay for the 6C4WA looks to be a GE-made tube.  There are quite a few more manufacturer options for a 6C4 without the suffix, but I'm not sure whether the 'WA' is only a military or higher spec designation or whether there is a meaningful difference beyond that.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Hey @bcowen  thanks for asking, all is well.
> Back Saturday from vacation in our Prague home with the family, lots of beer and endless grills(=Bigger belly 😁). Need to un-dust my music gear and back to business. Planned to go on a tube hunting spree in the Czech Republic but still was not able to do much with the post COVID era.
> Hope all is well at your side too.
> BTW a killer tube combo you have there 👍👍😍😍


Glad to hear you're doing well!  But wait...you went on a vacation that _didn't_ include tube shopping?  We may still need to check on you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will try that combo just to humor you, no cryo-treating though.😜


Since you're humoring me, I decided to humor you.  What are friends for, right?    

Along with the pair of 6C4WA's, this makes the third GE tube I've (knowingly) purchased in the last 20 years. This isn't FOMO, it's more WIIW (wondering of I'm wrong).


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Since you're humoring me, I decided to humor you.  What are friends for, right?
> 
> Along with the pair of 6C4WA's, this makes the third GE tube I've (knowingly) purchased in the last 20 years. This isn't FOMO, it's more WIIW (wondering of I'm wrong).


Glad to see that you are keeping an open mind. I think that you will be pleased with your purchase [or at least not too grouchy].


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Since you're humoring me, I decided to humor you.  What are friends for, right?
> 
> Along with the pair of 6C4WA's, this makes the third GE tube I've (knowingly) purchased in the last 20 years. This isn't FOMO, it's more WIIW (wondering of I'm wrong).


You will love it, just remember those can have solder issues at times but they are easily fixed. 

About time you grew a pair and ordered that tube.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Glad to see that you are keeping an open mind. I think that you will be pleased with your purchase [or at least not too grouchy].


Well, I'll either like it enough to keep it, or I've started my Christmas shopping early this year.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You will love it, just remember those can have solder issues at times but they are easily fixed.
> 
> About time you grew a pair and ordered that tube.


LOL!  At my age, growing the pair would likely not be of benefit.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Glad to hear you're doing well!  But wait...you went on a vacation that _didn't_ include tube shopping?  We may still need to check on you.


I know it's a shameful act from my part but I promise to make it up 🙂🙂🙂
But got 4 good bottles of single malt, hope this counts for something 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  At my age, growing the pair would likely not be of benefit.


It definitely won't be 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I know it's a shameful act from my part but I promise to make it up 🙂🙂🙂
> *But got 4 good bottles of single malt, *hope this counts for something 😁😁


LOL!  Just don't tell @Paladin79 , especially if it's Belvedere.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Just don't tell @Paladin79 , especially if it's Belvedere.


You mean Balvenie, Belvedere is a Vodka brand. What time is it at your side ? drinking anything already ?
Edit immediately before @Paladin79 read it 😜😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> You mean Balvenie, Belvedere is a Vodka brand. What time is it at your side ? drinking anything already ?
> Edit immediately before @Paladin79 read it 😜😜😜


It's only 9:40 AM here.  I _never_ drink before 10.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Well, I'll either like it enough to keep it, or I've started my Christmas shopping early this year.


Send it my way if you hate it, I will send you a 3 D printed headphone stand that Finnegan got to when I was not looking. I did save a few though.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> You mean Balvenie, Belvedere is a Vodka brand. What time is it at your side ? drinking anything already ?
> Edit immediately before @Paladin79 read it 😜😜😜


You tell him HT, just remember you are talking to someone who drinks wine from a box.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You tell him HT, just remember you are talking to someone who drinks wine from a box.


So you're implying that wine comes in something _other_ than a box?  Yeah, right.   

I've become spoiled with the single-serve boxes.  No glass to wash afterwards.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So you're implying that wine comes in something _other_ than a box?  Yeah, right.
> 
> I've become spoiled with the single-serve boxes.  No glass to wash afterwards.


It also comes in cans you know, I got a free four pack of French Rose.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It also comes in cans you know, I got a free four pack of French Rose.


Drinking wine from a can seems rather redneck-ish to me.  Probably made in Texas.


----------



## therremans (Sep 6, 2021)

Didn’t someone just mention this amp in here? This review just popped up on my YouTube feed. I have a hard time listening to this guy talk and a lot of other flags to make me take his opinion very lightly.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Well, I'll either like it enough to keep it, or I've started my Christmas shopping early this year.


OK, Santa!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Didn’t someone just mention this amp in here? This review just popped up on my YouTube feed. I have a hard time listening to this guy talk and a lot of other flags to make me take his opinion very lightly.



Geeez.  How to make a review 10x as long as it needs to be by filling it with irrelevant and largely irritating blather.  If that Xduoo actually sounds good, he certainly didn't do it any favors.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Geeez.  How to make a review 10x as long as it needs to be by filling it with irrelevant and largely irritating blather.  If that Xduoo actually sounds good, he certainly didn't do it any favors.


Exactly. No, he didn’t say much relevant information or swap the tubes back and forth.but can those caps be upgraded?? 🧐


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Exactly. No, he didn’t say much relevant information or swap the tubes back and forth.but can those caps be upgraded?? 🧐


LOL!  Probably.  But I'd probably upgrade the 'power brick' first so that the headphones can massage the tubes better.  His terms, not mine.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Drinking wine from a can seems rather redneck-ish to me.  Probably made in Texas.


Redneck to some may be blacktie to others…


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I know it's a shameful act from my part but I promise to make it up 🙂🙂🙂
> But got 4 good bottles of single malt, hope this counts for something 😁😁


…Bottles…Do you fill your tubes with single malt (triode malt?) in the way that some tubes are filled with rice?….


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You tell him HT, just remember you are talking to someone who drinks wine from a box.


….with a straw…


----------



## therremans

NOS testing Brimar pair of 6J5Gs for a decent price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BRIMAR...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## therremans (Sep 7, 2021)

The $1.80 winning bid lot arrived. 8 of the 9 tubes work. I reflowed the solder to (optimistically) restore some life into these guys. You can see the RCA at the top has probably lost its vacuum and registers as dead on the tester. There’s a bit of everything.. RCA, Tung-Sol, GE, Sylvania.

Some of these sound good or decent. Looking forward to hearing the mouse ears on a better power tube. You’d be surprised how hard it is to tell a difference with a low testing or unbalanced tube (on the darkvoice) between a high testing one.


----------



## therremans

Stays fresh for up to 30 days.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You tell him HT, just remember you are talking to someone who drinks wine from a box.


Boxed wine starting 10:00 am 😨😨😨
And he was complaining about long work shifts, am sure he's in charge of quality control of GE manufacturing plant. 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> So you're implying that wine comes in something _other_ than a box?  Yeah, right.
> 
> I've become spoiled with the single-serve boxes.  No glass to wash afterwards.


And no drinking glass needed either 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It also comes in cans you know, I got a free four pack of French Rose.


Canned wine ????? you would be banned from entering France if they catch you with one


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Drinking wine from a can seems rather redneck-ish to me.  Probably made in Texas.


I have to agree on this one 🤩🤩


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ….with a straw…


Straw may give it a classy look, NO straw 🤣🤣


----------



## Deceneu808

New toy came in yesterday. Had to take out the DV from the desk to make room for it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 8, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Canned wine ????? you would be banned from entering France if they catch you with one


It came from France!!!🤣

And it was a gift since I bought several bottles of French wine and Italian wine. One can pour it into a wine glass.


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> New toy came in yesterday. Had to take out the DV from the desk to make room for it.


Eufonika?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Canned wine ????? you would be banned from entering France if they catch you with one


Ok in Cannes !


----------



## Deceneu808

jonathan c said:


> Eufonika?


Yes, H5 model


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Yes, H5 model


Sweet, how is it?


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Sweet, how is it?


Twangy in a nutshell. More composed than the DV. A little more clearer. It sounds like you expect it to sound. I imagine it's more or less the same as a Crack minus the build it yourself part. As always, tubes come in to play. It came with a Winged C Svetlana and a OTK marked 1978 russian tube. I haven't even bothered with those


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Twangy in a nutshell. More composed than the DV. A little more clearer. It sounds like you expect it to sound. I imagine it's more or less the same as a Crack minus the build it yourself part. As always, tubes come in to play. It came with a Winged C Svetlana and a OTK marked 1978 russian tube. I haven't even bothered with those


Nice. Sometimes I wish I could hear a stock DV again and compare it to mine. I still need to remove my hum mod and drop the power voltage. Been too busy to look back on what to buy. But it’s planned as I have a lot of nice resistors to use.


----------



## craiglester

Just got this out of storage today.. running a Sylvania 6ns7 WGTA at the front and a Tung Sol 5998 in the back... Makes my K340s sing. Darn I've missed this amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It came from France!!!🤣
> 
> And it was a gift since I bought several bottles of French wine and Italian wine. One can pour it into a wine glass.


Ohhhhhh 😲😲😲😲


----------



## JKDJedi

craiglester said:


> Just got this out of storage today.. running a Sylvania 6ns7 WGTA at the front and a Tung Sol 5998 in the back... Makes my K340s sing. Darn I've missed this amp.


What year is that make and model (with the Miami Vice blue sig on the front)...vents on the side and all..very nice, just blew the dust off mine too..


----------



## craiglester

No idea what year it is, id guess it's late 2000s?  It's a 336i, not the SE. I'm still impressed with the power this thing delivers after all the years. The Sylvania tube definitely boosted the output over the RCA that was in there when I got it out of the closet.


----------



## Paladin79

I would have thought the gains were similar. Now a 5998 certainly has more gain than a 6080 or 6AS7G.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I would have thought the gains were similar. Now a 5998 certainly has more gain than a 6080 or 6AS7G.


RCA might be near the end of it's cycle.. They both test the same @craiglester ?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> RCA might be near the end of it's cycle.. They both test the same @craiglester ?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6SN7


----------



## craiglester

I think it's this.. https://tubedepot.com/products/jan-sylvania-6sn7wgta 
I didn't get it there, to be honest I've quite forgotten where I got it. I like it, seems really smooth sounding, not slow though. To me that is, of course others might hate it.


----------



## JKDJedi

craiglester said:


> I think it's this.. https://tubedepot.com/products/jan-sylvania-6sn7wgta
> I didn't get it there, to be honest I've quite forgotten where I got it. I like it, seems really smooth sounding, not slow though. To me that is, of course others might hate it.


Nice looking tube. Wishing I kept my copy. 😟


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …Bottles…Do you fill your tubes with single malt (triode malt?) in the way that some tubes are filled with rice?….


Yeah depends on the manufacturing country 😜😜😜


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> It came from France!!!🤣
> 
> And it was a gift since I bought several bottles of French wine and Italian wine. One can pour it into a wine glass.



Always finding the very rare exceptions to the rules!  You sir, are a rebel.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Nice. Sometimes I wish I could hear a stock DV again and compare it to mine. I still need to remove my hum mod and drop the power voltage. Been too busy to look back on what to buy. But it’s planned as I have a lot of nice resistors to use.



I'm just curious, why on earth would you ever revert back to a form where the hum is more prevalent, unless you are doing one of those l0rdgwynn mods with the raised heater/center tap whatchamacallits when you end up replacing more resistors/caps?  Or maybe I just answered my own question lol. 

It is such a crestfallen feeling when you have tubes and you can barely use half of them knowing they will hum like a b**** and noise out.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 9, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Always finding the very rare exceptions to the rules!  You sir, are a rebel.


https://nymag.com/strategist/article/best-canned-wine.html

They are becoming more and more popular.

This weekend friends and I are assembling the audio system from the Bosch tv series, except for the exact turntable. I have a replacement but I may yet find the Marantz shown in the photo. They can go as high as $2,000 on Ebay.

*McIntosh MX110 tuner/*pre-amplifier,
 McIntosh MC240 power amplifier,
Marantz 6300 turntable,
 Ohm Walsh 4 speakers






I went as far as tracking down the rental company from which the show got the equipment just to make sure all was accurate. I also found where the president of OHM said those were OHM Walsh 4's on the show. Once I do a bit of work on the amp we should be ready to roll.

https://www.rewindaudio.com/hall-of-fame.html


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I'm just curious, why on earth would you ever revert back to a form where the hum is more prevalent, unless you are doing one of those l0rdgwynn mods with the raised heater/center tap whatchamacallits when you end up replacing more resistors/caps?  Or maybe I just answered my own question lol.
> 
> It is such a crestfallen feeling when you have tubes and you can barely use half of them knowing they will hum like a b**** and noise out.


Yeah, I actually did my mod pretty early, so I’ve never heard a tube hum on my amp. But the idea would be to get those caps out of the audio circuit and lower the voltage coming off the transformer, which is causing the hum to begin with.


----------



## therremans (Sep 11, 2021)

Which 6SN7WGT/A is the best sounding? What I know, they typically have a brown base and I think Sylvania made most of them. There is a Raytheon version with ladder plates.. I assume 50s is slightly better sounding, I see black T plates and the triangular/angle plates with O getters. Various stamp colors on glass or base, there’s a GB or gold brand Sylvania version.

lots of variation and probably why I never bought one.


----------



## bcowen

The GE 5998A has arrived, and now my listening impressions:

Wait.  Sorry.  False start.  Measures like crap with a >30% GM imbalance between the triodes and interelement leakage that is bordering on unsafe (at least for my comfort level).  Disappointed, but un-surprised....it is a GE after all.     Seriously, I messaged the seller (tubetoons, who has sold almost 200 of them) and he said they had been so rock-solid with his testing that he didn't bother testing them any more.  (Bad) luck of the draw, perhaps.  He's sending me a replacement at no charge, so I'm pleased to see that he's not only honest about it but is going to do the right thing. So stay tuned a bit longer...


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> The GE 5998A has arrived, and now my listening impressions:
> 
> Wait.  Sorry.  False start.  Measures like crap with a >30% GM imbalance between the triodes and interelement leakage that is bordering on unsafe (at least for my comfort level).  Disappointed, but un-surprised....it is a GE after all.     Seriously, I messaged the seller (tubetoons, who has sold almost 200 of them) and he said they had been so rock-solid with his testing that he didn't bother testing them any more.  (Bad) luck of the draw, perhaps.  He's sending me a replacement at no charge, so I'm pleased to see that he's not only honest about it but is going to do the right thing. So stay tuned a bit longer...


Your experience is somewhat unusual, in that my first 6998A purchase has almost 0 variation; my second 6998A had a almost 20% difference.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Your experience is somewhat unusual, in that my first 6998A purchase has almost 0 variation; my second 6998A had a almost 20% difference.


I haven't tried it in the amp.  It's possible that the mismatch would be inaudible (even at this extreme), but that mismatch coupled with a 3 megohm leakage reading was too much.  I generally don't use tubes that have less than 5 megohms.  Maybe that's being too OCD, but I've also never blown up an amp from sticking a bad tube in it, so there's that.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I haven't tried it in the amp.  It's possible that the mismatch would be inaudible (even at this extreme), but that mismatch coupled with a 3 megohm leakage reading was too much.  I generally don't use tubes that have less than 5 megohms.  Maybe that's being too OCD, but I've also never blown up an amp from sticking a bad tube in it, so there's that.


Blow up the Incubus and I will hunt you down!😜 Re-solder the pins for the heck of it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 11, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Blow up the Incubus and I will hunt you down!😜 Re-solder the pins for the heck of it.


Actually, your repair bill (regardless of the amount) would be far less frightful than the ragging that would ensue...indefinitely.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually, your repair bill (regardless of the amount) would be far less frightful than the ragging that would ensue...indefinitely.


You got that right.😜


----------



## bcowen (Sep 11, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You got that right.😜


I'll give the resoldering a try.  Didn't want to do anything until I heard back from the seller, but he doesn't want the tube back so no reason _*not*_ to try at this point.  My soldering iron actually has dust on it which is a very troubling sign.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'll give the resoldering a try.  Didn't want to do anything until I heard back from the seller, but he doesn't want the tube back so no reason _*not*_ to try at this point.  My soldering iron actually has dust on it which is a very troubling sign.


You can send it to me for verification... 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You can send it to me for verification... 😁


Mighty kind of you.  Should I include a prepaid return label?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The GE 5998A has arrived, and now my listening impressions:
> 
> Wait.  Sorry.  False start.  Measures like crap with a >30% GM imbalance between the triodes and interelement leakage that is bordering on unsafe (at least for my comfort level).  Disappointed, but un-surprised....it is a GE after all.     Seriously, I messaged the seller (tubetoons, who has sold almost 200 of them) and he said they had been so rock-solid with his testing that he didn't bother testing them any more.  (Bad) luck of the draw, perhaps.  He's sending me a replacement at no charge, so I'm pleased to see that he's not only honest about it but is going to do the right thing. So stay tuned a bit longer...


Will be waiting for your final judgement once you receive the replacement along with the seller contact please to order one.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Mighty kind of you.  Should I include a prepaid return label?


I believe he meant 1 way 😁😁


----------



## tubebuyer2020

JKDJedi said:


> You can send it to me for verification... 😁



Verification by hammer? I bet glass is the weak spot in that tube...


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Will be waiting for your final judgement once you receive the replacement along with the seller contact please to order one.


This is who I got it from.  So far he seems to be an honorable seller (assuming the replacement tube shows up ). I'll post an update either way.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/121586619378?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe he meant 1 way 😁😁


I believe what you believe is what I believed.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> This is who I got it from.  So far he seems to be an honorable seller (assuming the replacement tube shows up ). I'll post an update either way.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/121586619378?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Damn… I'm wondering how the spark plug they're selling sounds


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Damn… I'm wondering how the spark plug they're selling sounds


Probably about the same as these.  Dude must have bought a GE warehouse.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Probably about the same as these.  Dude must have bought a GE warehouse.


The RX8 is a twin rotor right? Swap that plug into one and let us know how your exhaust tone has changed. - I can't imagine spark plugs need to be matched pairs


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> This is who I got it from.  So far he seems to be an honorable seller (assuming the replacement tube shows up ). I'll post an update either way.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/121586619378?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Yep that’s the guy that sent yogurt packs and cliff bars in mine with the tubes…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> The RX8 is a twin rotor right? Swap that plug into one and let us know how your exhaust tone has changed. - I can't imagine spark plugs need to be matched pairs


Yup. Except that particular plug wouldn't sound very good while ripping the apex seals to shreds.  I get the privilege of buying _special_ plugs at $80 per set, and despite several blind trials they all sound the same.  Weird, huh?  Haven't tried any NOS ones yet though....


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Yep that’s the guy that sent yogurt packs and cliff bars in mine with the tubes…


What?!?!?  Now I'm_ really_ pissed.  All I got was crumpled up newspaper.  Well, I also got the tube, so there's that.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> What?!?!?  Now I'm_ really_ pissed.  All I got was crumpled up newspaper.  Well, I also got the tube, so there's that.


I received Cliff Bars and apple sauce in my 2 orders---I surmise that he did not have any vinegar flavored treats for your locale.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I received Cliff Bars and apple sauce in my 2 orders---I surmise that he did not have any vinegar flavored treats for your locale.


He must have run out of NOS treats?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> What?!?!?  Now I'm_ really_ pissed.  All I got was crumpled up newspaper.  Well, I also got the tube, so there's that.


That crumpled up newspaper was “seller disclaimers”…?…😳😒…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That crumpled up newspaper was “seller disclaimers”…?…😳😒…


Really?  I was supposed to _read_ that?  Crap.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Really?  I was supposed to _read_ that?  Crap.


If the newspaper was not the “seller disclaimer”, did you check - it may have been the “tubituary”…🪦…😔…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If the newspaper was not the “seller disclaimer”, did you check - it may have been the “tubituary”…🪦…😔…


Groan.


----------



## therremans (Sep 12, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Na...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Pretty nice price if anyone is interested in one. I like mine, one of the first 6sn7s I ever bought. It tests around 80% on their tester. I think it’s from 1943.


----------



## therremans (Sep 19, 2021)




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Weeeeeellll?!?  How does it sound?  I don't have a Brimar (6SN7) and only have the non-slotted graphite TungSol.  $200+ worth of tubes in a $200 amp...a man after my own heart.


----------



## bcowen

Received the replacement GE 5998 yesterday.  It has better triode balance than the first one with only a 15% difference instead of 30%, but has much higher interelement leakage (down to 2 megohms).  Sigh.  I don't mind resoldering Fotons 'cause they're worth it, but spending that time and effort on a GE is just so, so, so....difficult.   I'm not comfortable using either one of these tubes as they are so I'll man up and do the work.  Just hope it can get at least one of them into usable condition.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Weeeeeellll?!?  How does it sound?  I don't have a Brimar (6SN7) and only have the non-slotted graphite TungSol.  $200+ worth of tubes in a $200 amp...a man after my own heart.


I’ve had the Brimar for awhile now. I have a spare with an unlabeled base. Sound is fully detailed and a little on the warm side. I recommend them, they can be found $40-$70. Especially if found in pairs.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Received the replacement GE 5998 yesterday.  It has better triode balance than the first one with only a 15% difference instead of 30%, but has much higher interelement leakage (down to 2 megohms).  Sigh.  I don't mind resoldering Fotons 'cause they're worth it, but spending that time and effort on a GE is just so, so, so....difficult.   I'm not comfortable using either one of these tubes as they are so I'll man up and do the work.  Just hope it can get at least one of them into usable condition.


Oh bummer. it’s rare that I get a tube with that much leakage. Good luck with the re-soldering on both.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Received the replacement GE 5998 yesterday.  It has better triode balance than the first one with only a 15% difference instead of 30%, but has much higher interelement leakage (down to 2 megohms).  Sigh.  I don't mind resoldering Fotons 'cause they're worth it, but spending that time and effort on a GE is just so, so, so....difficult.   I'm not comfortable using either one of these tubes as they are so I'll man up and do the work.  Just hope it can get at least one of them into usable condition.


In this case I will pass on GE.....again 😉😉


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Received the replacement GE 5998 yesterday.  It has better triode balance than the first one with only a 15% difference instead of 30%, but has much higher interelement leakage (down to 2 megohms).  Sigh.  I don't mind resoldering Fotons 'cause they're worth it, but spending that time and effort on a GE is just so, so, so....difficult.   I'm not comfortable using either one of these tubes as they are so I'll man up and do the work.  Just hope it can get at least one of them into usable condition.


Having a power tube with inter element (usually heater to cathode) leakage of 2 megohhms or so is not uncommon. Although that number is totally unacceptable in a voltage amplifier/small signal tube, in a power tube it may be acceptable since the headphone amp output stage is a cathode follower with a voltage gain of less than unity. It is difficult to construct toaster size filaments in a large cathode structure without some leakage, which is why some popular power tubes are directly heated---the heater is the cathode. My suggestion is to resolder, retest, and try it in the circuit---with 2megs heater cathode leakage, the only detriment should be hum in the output.

I will retest my two 5998A tubes and see what they look like after a few months of use. Don't give up yet!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Having a power tube with inter element (usually heater to cathode) leakage of 2 megohhms or so is not uncommon. Although that number is totally unacceptable in a voltage amplifier/small signal tube, in a power tube it may be acceptable since the headphone amp output stage is a cathode follower with a voltage gain of less than unity. It is difficult to construct toaster size filaments in a large cathode structure without some leakage, which is why some popular power tubes are directly heated---the heater is the cathode. My suggestion is to resolder, retest, and try it in the circuit---with 2megs heater cathode leakage, the only detriment should be hum in the output.
> 
> I will retest my two 5998A tubes and see what they look like after a few months of use. Don't give up yet!


Good to know, Sam.  I've never been able to find any Hickok-published manual or document that specifies what an 'acceptable' or maximum amount of leakage is, and perhaps for just the reason you detail where it depends on the type and application of the tube.  Most of the 6080's, 6AS7's, 5998's, etc I've tested register some leakage, but it's usually in the 5+ megohm range so I've just considered that to be the norm (at my own peril perhaps).  I haven't given up on the GE's...I have almost $50 invested in the two of them.    Haven't had a chance to do the pins yet, but I'll certainly give it a shot and report back with the results.


----------



## therremans

_New tubes and my first impressions paired with the Bendix 6080WA:_





_*RCA VT-231 - *_
Loose and airy, wooly lows, extended mids, soundstage is on the wide end. Unique sounding tube.. I think it works well with upright bass and wind instruments, it was nice with Jazz. Drums also sound very nice through it with good impact. On my setup, it did not play well with keys or vocals, as the edge gets a bit dull and become lost. I could probably pick this tube out of a bin of tubes in a sound test.

*Sylvania VT-231 - *
Tight and neutral, quick resolve, decent bass extension, restrained mids, pretty neutral soundstage. Sounds good with rock but vocals were not a strong suite.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Good to know, Sam.  I've never been able to find any Hickok-published manual or document that specifies what an 'acceptable' or maximum amount of leakage is, and perhaps for just the reason you detail where it depends on the type and application of the tube.  Most of the 6080's, 6AS7's, 5998's, etc I've tested register some leakage, but it's usually in the 5+ megohm range so I've just considered that to be the norm (at my own peril perhaps).  I haven't given up on the GE's...I have almost $50 invested in the two of them.    Haven't had a chance to do the pins yet, but I'll certainly give it a shot and report back with the results.


I will do some research [in between numerous honey-do's] about tube leakage, but remember that I am mostly talking heater cathode leakage. The only data point that comes to mind [of what little mind I have left], is that I recall the B & K calibration procedure for the 707 tube tester sets the threshold for the shorts neon light at 2 megohm.


----------



## SHIMACM

After a lot of thinking, I ended up purchasing the Sennheiser HD 6XX.

I'm surprised how good this phone is with Darkvoice.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> After a lot of thinking, I ended up purchasing the Sennheiser HD 6XX.
> 
> I'm surprised how good this phone is with Darkvoice.



The 6XX gets better too once that burns-in and settles.   It really is a fantastic match for the DV.  The sound is lacking with SS or even hybrid amps IMHO.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> The 6XX gets better too once that burns-in and settles.   It really is a fantastic match for the DV.  The sound is lacking with SS or even hybrid amps IMHO.



I'm impressed with the synergy.

In some genres I think he surpassed even T1.


----------



## Galapac

SHIMACM said:


> After a lot of thinking, I ended up purchasing the Sennheiser HD 6XX.
> 
> I'm surprised how good this phone is with Darkvoice.


That headphone is my guilty pleasure with the Bottlehead Crack. The sound rivals much higher priced headphones when paired with an OTL.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Good to know, Sam.  I've never been able to find any Hickok-published manual or document that specifies what an 'acceptable' or maximum amount of leakage is, and perhaps for just the reason you detail where it depends on the type and application of the tube.  Most of the 6080's, 6AS7's, 5998's, etc I've tested register some leakage, but it's usually in the 5+ megohm range so I've just considered that to be the norm (at my own peril perhaps).  I haven't given up on the GE's...I have almost $50 invested in the two of them.    Haven't had a chance to do the pins yet, but I'll certainly give it a shot and report back with the results.


OK, here is what I found, using the 1500 page bible of vacuum tubes, The Radiotron Designer's Handbook, F. Langford Smith, editor, 1953. You can download it for free from www.tubebooks.org. This is, in my opinion, the best tube tome around, and one entire chapter is devoted to the testing of tubes. On page 123, he states "The maximum leakage resistance from heater to cathode in new valves [tubes, to you colonials] varies from 1 or 2 megohms for power valves to 5 megohms for ordinary 6.3 Volt 0.3 Ampere voltage amplifier valves and even higher for rectifier types having separate heaters and cathodes". Methods of performing the tests are included, plus a lot more. Every time I look up something in this work I am amazed by how much I have forgotten!

I tested the 2 6AS7 and 2 5998A tubes that I own, using a B & K 707, properly calibrated with the shorts light illuminating at 2 megohms, all 4 -passed. Although the 707 wants to test the 6as7 and 5998A in the emission section, I test them in the Dynamic Mutual Conductance section in socket 25, with sensitivity at 75 for 6AS7s and at 60 for 5998As. Using the % scale on the 707, RCA 6AS7 was 65 & 70, Svetlana  was 75 & 78, GE 5998A #1 was 90 & 90, and #2 was 85 & 92.

I hope this helps, Bill. PM me if you need more info---in the meantime, download old Langford Smith!


----------



## therremans

Quite the combination going on. Really enjoying the RCA VT-231 with the HD6XX.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Quite the combination going on. Really enjoying the RCA VT-231 with the HD6XX.



They RCA Gray Glass reputation still living up to the hype!  I can't believe the prices they are going for these days though....


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> They RCA Gray Glass reputation still living up to the hype!  I can't believe the prices they are going for these days though....


Yeah, it plays really well with some setups. I understand why people like it so much. Pronounced mids without muddy highs. Lucky me, I found this one for $18.99 on eBay, tests new.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yeah, it plays really well with some setups. I understand why people like it so much. Pronounced mids without muddy highs. Lucky me, I found this one for $18.99 on eBay, tests new.



This was my go-to budget tube and top recommendation for new-comers.  A tube that offers a lot that doesn't break the bank.  I guess that's not really the case anymore.  Yeah, I remember finding mine for 13.99 as well.  Easily had super bang for the buck value.  Yeah for you to find one that tests new at that price - awesome.

I have to say that the military designations on tubes does make it a little bit more cool looking.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> This was my go-to budget tube and top recommendation for new-comers.  A tube that offers a lot that doesn't break the bank.  I guess that's not really the case anymore.  Yeah, I remember finding mine for 13.99 as well.  Easily had super bang for the buck value.  Yeah for you to find one that tests new at that price - awesome.
> 
> I have to say that the military designations on tubes does make it a little bit more cool looking.


Especially English or European military markings and in some cases the military tube is built slightly different or to higher standards and strict tolerances. Maybe that’s why they typically produce better music. Going rate for the RCA is around $75 now.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> OK, here is what I found, using the 1500 page bible of vacuum tubes, The Radiotron Designer's Handbook, F. Langford Smith, editor, 1953. You can download it for free from www.tubebooks.org. This is, in my opinion, the best tube tome around, and one entire chapter is devoted to the testing of tubes. On page 123, he states "The maximum leakage resistance from heater to cathode in new valves [tubes, to you colonials] varies from 1 or 2 megohms for power valves to 5 megohms for ordinary 6.3 Volt 0.3 Ampere voltage amplifier valves and even higher for rectifier types having separate heaters and cathodes". Methods of performing the tests are included, plus a lot more. Every time I look up something in this work I am amazed by how much I have forgotten!
> 
> I tested the 2 6AS7 and 2 5998A tubes that I own, using a B & K 707, properly calibrated with the shorts light illuminating at 2 megohms, all 4 -passed. Although the 707 wants to test the 6as7 and 5998A in the emission section, I test them in the Dynamic Mutual Conductance section in socket 25, with sensitivity at 75 for 6AS7s and at 60 for 5998As. Using the % scale on the 707, RCA 6AS7 was 65 & 70, Svetlana  was 75 & 78, GE 5998A #1 was 90 & 90, and #2 was 85 & 92.
> 
> I hope this helps, Bill. PM me if you need more info---in the meantime, download old Langford Smith!


Wow.  Thanks Sam!  That site is a treasure trove of info, and I'd never run across it before.  Very helpful!

Just don't tell @Paladin79 that I set the shorts sensitivity on his 707 at 1 megohm. That's per the manual I have on hand, but those manuals changed frequently and yours may be different.





I'll give both GE's a spin in the Weston 981 before and after I solder them to see what it shows.  Haven't tried that yet 'cause it's in the closet and I'm far too lazy to drag it out.


----------



## Deceneu808

Ok so I've managed to squeeze the DV back on the desk and I'm happy I did.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Thanks Sam!  That site is a treasure trove of info, and I'd never run across it before.  Very helpful!
> 
> Just don't tell @Paladin79 that I set the shorts sensitivity on his 707 at 1 megohm. That's per the manual I have on hand, but those manuals changed frequently and yours may be different.
> 
> ...


I do have the 707 tester but generally I just hand Finnegan new tubes I receive and those he does not break I figure I should give them a chance to be plugged into an amp. My form of natural selection.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Thanks Sam!  That site is a treasure trove of info, and I'd never run across it before.  Very helpful!
> 
> Just don't tell @Paladin79 that I set the shorts sensitivity on his 707 at 1 megohm. That's per the manual I have on hand, but those manuals changed frequently and yours may be different.
> 
> ...


I will be glad to clean out that closet for you!


----------



## maketus

can i just replace default pot  new  alps 50k 6legs  in default circuit


----------



## therremans

maketus said:


> can i just replace default pot  new  alps 50k 6legs  in default circuit


Yes and no. It’s not a drop in fit and will require some modifications. Importantly, the alps pot legs will not align to the stock pcb that the stock pot is soldered to.


----------



## maketus

what modifications ?


----------



## Deceneu808

maketus said:


> what modifications ?


Need to take the old pot out with the PCB that's sticked to. Then solder the wires directly on the Alps. Most if not all, drilled the front hole to accommodate the bigger Alps pot but I've just used hot glue to stick it inside and on the front. Took me two minutes and it's quite sturdy. It takes a bit of force to unglue the pot from the frame on the inside. Had 0 problems so far


----------



## maketus

are orginal spot and alps legs differentt order .  thats whay just needto solder wires dirictly on the alps


----------



## Deceneu808

maketus said:


> are orginal spot and alps legs differentt order .  thats whay just needto solder wires dirictly on the alps


Can't remember if they are in a different order but the Alps is just a chunk compared to the stock one. Kind of like those memes with You vs The guy she tells you not to worry about


----------



## maketus

i worry beacuse,  i just let  my amp and alps pot.  another person.  my hands shake too much can't soldering my self.   he thinking to using that default circuit. if legs are different order, i need to call him to stop what he doing


----------



## Galapac (Sep 22, 2021)

Here is the link to the wiring courtesy of @bcowen 

©Bcowen Enterprises, LLC
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16256502

Not sure if you can use this in the DV, but a break out board is better than wiring to the ALPS pot itself as that pot is meant to solder directly to a board. I am using this in my BHC.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272365690881


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Here is the link to the wiring courtesy of @bcowen
> 
> ©Bcowen Enterprises, LLC
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16256502
> ...


LOL!  I need to go back to drawing school.  Or just _go_, I guess, as 'back' would suggest I went at some prior point.


----------



## maketus

i will change the volume pot some other day.   Now only put nichicon 220uf/25v muse acoustic kz caps.  now i can finally listen my fotons 
​


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> Isn't the HD6XX closer to the HD650? If you could have heard my A/B with some songs would be something that would make you reconsider the HD6XX. but the T1s were very good at detail and separation. Everything is very dependent on equipment, setup and preferences.



Today I understand what you meant back then.

I'm now listening to Hd6XX with Gec CV4079 and Melz 1578 (59), and just...WOW!!!!!


----------



## therremans (Sep 24, 2021)

New arrival - Ken-Rad VT-231

No test values but for $29.99 shipped, I was on it.
Thankfully it tests much higher than the one I already own. Tests around NOS levels.

You can see differences in the top mica. Does anyone remember which is more desired? I believe the spade supports (the lower testing tube here) is more sought after and might be older? Who knows?


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matche...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Na...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> Pretty nice price if anyone is interested in one. I like mine, one of the first 6sn7s I ever bought. It tests around 80% on their tester. I think it’s from 1943.


dammit... I would've grabbed that one... 😭 why don't I get notified


therremans said:


> New arrival - Ken-Rad VT-231
> 
> No test values but for $29.99 shipped, I was on it.
> Thankfully it tests much higher than the one I already own. Tests around NOS levels.
> ...


Still finding the killer deals...


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> After a lot of thinking, I ended up purchasing the Sennheiser HD 6XX.
> 
> I'm surprised how good this phone is with Darkvoice.


Compared to which headphones ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> They RCA Gray Glass reputation still living up to the hype!  I can't believe the prices they are going for these days though....


Agree, one of the best all rounder, very polite and warm 👍


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> dammit... I would've grabbed that one... 😭 why don't I get notified
> 
> Still finding the killer deals...


Nice seeing you again. What’s new?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Compared to which headphones ?


Compared to ones that don't sound as good.    

Seriously, although I haven't heard a huge number of different headphones, I think the HD-6XX is a huge bang for the buck. Sure there are better 'phones (and even much better), but I could also argue you'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding 'phone for $200 (US).  And the HD-6XX is a very synergistic match with the DV, IMO.


----------



## therremans

This was sold to me as a “NOS 1972 RCA” for $25 shipped.

Look what’s inside..


I was hopeful…

but it tests awful. Heating the pins and cleaning them didn’t prove beneficial.

1300/300 (2600)


I knew I shouldn’t have told Bill, he definitely jinxed it. But hey, it does still sound good believe it or not.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> This was sold to me as a “NOS 1972 RCA” for $25 shipped.
> 
> Look what’s inside..
> I was hopeful…
> ...


Well there's the problem. Your pinky is resting on the knob for the 2nd filament selector which is why you're getting 300.  See how much better the other triode tests when your pinky is removed?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Well there's the problem. Your pinky is resting on the knob for the 2nd filament selector which is why you're getting 300.  See how much better the other triode tests when your pinky is removed?


😂 when being really observant doesn’t pay off.


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> Compared to which headphones ?



Compared with Beyerdynamic T1 G1. It's the only high impedance I have to compare.

The AKG k7xx I have doesn't work very well with Darkvoice no. I use it with Arcam rHeard.


----------



## SHIMACM

The T1 I've read elsewhere that it has a great synergy with Woo Wa2, Feliks Elise and Euphoria. The owners of these amps rave about the T1.


I don't know if Darkvoice can amplify the T1 to reach its full capacity.


By the way, the Darkvoice owners of this topic have already been able to hear other headphones that could establish this synergy with Darkvoice as the HD650 can?


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> The T1 I've read elsewhere that it has a great synergy with Woo Wa2, Feliks Elise and Euphoria. The owners of these amps rave about the T1.
> 
> 
> I don't know if Darkvoice can amplify the T1 to reach its full capacity.
> ...


From my side, the Focal Elear (80 Ohms) shines with the DV but nothing stellar, not sure if @Paladin79 gave his Utopia (same impedance as the Elear) a spin with the stock DV he's planning to upgrade.


----------



## therremans (Sep 28, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> By the way, the Darkvoice owners of this topic have already been able to hear other headphones that could establish this synergy with Darkvoice as the HD650 can?



DT 1990 pro. Especially good with rock and any audio where full range is desired, nice highs and lows are achievable. Not as V curved as other Beyers, more neutral. More bass than T1s. I also like them with electronic instruments/genres. The HD6XX pads are good to go, where as the DT 1990 welcomes various pads to improve or tweak the sound profile.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 28, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> From my side, the Focal Elear (80 Ohms) shines with the DV but nothing stellar, not sure if @Paladin79 gave his Utopia (same impedance as the Elear) a spin with the stock DV he's planning to upgrade.


I did not plug the Utopias into the DarkVoice, the noise was so bad with other headphones I knew the Focals would only point it out even more. I used the DV to test some tubes for you but otherwise I have not turned it on. I have been really busy so I do not know when I will get around to modifying the DV, maybe one day.

Also some of my favorite tubes do even worse in the DV, I have tried most 6sn7's made and only use specific Melz tubes at this time. My tube rolling is comprised of different years and variations of the 1578. YMMV but as far as I am concerned nothing else compares in my amps and with my headphones so I have reached my happy place with tubes. Normally I will use Tung Sol 5998's or Chatham bottom getter 6as7g's. I am near the end of my journey on 6sn7's and 6AS7G equivalents but I certainly wish others well.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I did not plug the Utopias into the DarkVoice, the noise was so bad with other headphones I knew the Focals would only point it out even more. I used the DV to test some tubes for you but otherwise I have not turned it on. I have been really busy so I do not know when I will get around to modifying the DV, maybe one day.
> 
> Also some of my favorite tubes do even worse in the DV, I have tried most 6sn7's made and only use specific Melz tubes at this time. My tube rolling is comprised of different years and variations of the 1578. YMMV but as far as I am concerned nothing else compares in my amps and with my headphones so I have reached my happy place with tubes. Normally I will use Tung Sol 5998's or Chatham bottom getter 6as7g's. I am near the end of my journey on 6sn7's and 6AS7G equivalents but I certainly wish others well.


Yeah I think you have beat the 6SN7 horse to death, lol.

For me I like:

Melz 1578
CBS 6SN7WGTA
Tung-sol 6SN7GTB Talls
NU black plates 6SN7GT
​


----------



## SHIMACM

therremans said:


> DT 1990 pro. Especialmente bom com rock e qualquer áudio onde a gama completa é desejada, altos e baixos agradáveis são alcançáveis. Não tão curvado como outros Beyers, mais neutro. Mais graves do que T1s. Eu também gosto deles com instrumentos / gêneros eletrônicos. Os pads HD6XX são bons para ir, enquanto o DT 1990 acolhe vários pads para melhorar ou ajustar o perfil de som.


what is the impedance of your dt 1990 pro?  On Darkvoice I note that the T1 is technically superior to the hd650, but the hd650 manages to convey an emotion and naturalness that the t1 simply cannot.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Yeah I think you have beat the 6SN7 horse to death, lol.
> 
> For me I like:
> 
> ...


Except for final evaluation of the top 52 tubes by a large group, yes I am pretty well done. 😜


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Except for final evaluation of the top 52 tubes by a large group, yes I am pretty well done. 😜



Do you have any plans to set your sights on another tube type in the future?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Except for final evaluation of the top 52 tubes by a large group, yes I am pretty well done. 😜


Does this mean you'll stop Bogarting the good tubes and the rest of us can finally get some


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Do you have any plans to set your sights on another tube type in the future?


Obviously I want to do 6080 and equivalent power tubes, after that it is hard to say. We are having more fun setting up systems like the one from the Bosch tv series just to see how they sound. 😜


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Does this mean you'll stop Bogarting the good tubes and the rest of us can finally get some


Many of the 6SN7’s were in personal collections already. Now if a tube measured below a specific value we sought NOS. Many of the 1500 types tested were not very desirable anyway. I would hate to think we stood in the way of your paying $1,000 up for some tubes.😎


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Obviously I want to do 6080 and equivalent power tubes, after that it is hard to say. We are having more fun setting up systems like the one from the Bosch tv series just to see how they sound. 😜


…the logical progression…roll tubes -> roll hp amplifiers -> roll entire two-channel systems…


----------



## therremans (Sep 29, 2021)

@bcowen told me about these. So, the 6C4 is 1/2 a 12AU7. They sound very nice. Pairs that I have are the Brimar, Mullard and a made in USA “National”. They seem to prefer the higher gain of the 5998 so far. Very detailed tubes, spacious, vocals do sound accurate and natural.

From memory, the 2C51 sounded more analytical or precise.. and overall more thin than any three pairs of these. So I do think I prefer the 6C4 but I need to revisit the 2C51 (Western Electric 396A).

Edit: These sound great! Brimars are definitely a new favorite. I think they’re breaking in as these were all NOS. They seem liked they’ve opened up even more, probably the most detailed tubes I’ve heard yet. Fantastic soundstage.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> @bcowen told me about these. So, the 6C4 is 1/2 a 12AU7. They sound very nice. Pairs that I have are the Brimar, Mullard and a made in USA “National”. They seem to prefer the higher gain of the 5998 so far. Very detailed tubes, spacious, vocals do sound accurate and natural.
> 
> From memory, the 2C51 sounded more analytical or precise.. and overall more thin than any three pairs of these. So I do think I prefer the 6C4 but I need to revisit the 2C51 (Western Electric 396A).
> 
> Edit: These sound great! Brimars are definitely a new favorite. I think they’re breaking in as these were all NOS. They seem liked they’ve opened up even more, probably the most detailed tubes I’ve heard yet. Fantastic soundstage.


Shhhhh.  @Paladin79 might hear you and he's done (and pigs will be flying soon too).  More importantly, I haven't stashed up yet.  Brimars, huh?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Many of the 6SN7’s were in personal collections already. Now if a tube measured below a specific value we sought NOS. Many of the 1500 types tested were not very desirable anyway. I would hate to think we stood in the way of your paying $1,000 up for some tubes.😎


I was thinking more along the lines of your attempt to corner the market on супер-Melz


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of your attempt to corner the market on супер-Melz


I have helped many of you obtain the proper Melz tubes, now if the extremely rare ones that I really like show up, that is another story.   To date there are at least 25 variations I really like. You can own them too if you watch Ebay adds closely and have in the neighborhood of $3,750 to spend.


----------



## Deceneu808

First pic or second pic ?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> First pic or second pic ?


Second is more desirable, and I prefer early sixties to later sixties. I can make out the 6 but not the second digit.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> Second is more desirable, and I prefer early sixties to later sixties. I can make out the 6 but not the second digit.


It's a 63

Has one listed at 100$ and three others, same construction, same year, but 120$.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-MELZ-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Or this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-MELZ-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> It's a 63
> 
> Has one listed at 100$ and three others, same construction, same year, but 120$.
> 
> ...


63 is a very good year and that price is not bad compared to some I have seen.


----------



## Galapac (Sep 30, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> It's a 63
> 
> Has one listed at 100$ and three others, same construction, same year, but 120$.
> 
> ...


I’ve bought from both of those sellers with no issue but the wait.
The second dealers tube I had to resolder but such is the way with some of these and I wouldn’t fault the buyer as it worked when I first tried it but later got a buzz that the re-soldering corrected.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 30, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I’ve bought from both of those sellers with no issue but the wait.
> The second dealers tube I had to resolver but such is the way with some of these and I wouldn’t fault the buyer as it worked when I first tried it but later got a buzz that the re-soldering corrected.


It is a given that Foton and Melz of that period now have issues with solder, I must have repaired over 50 of them for various folks around the US. 63’s are great and once you experience them you start to understand why I seek the holy grail versions.😜


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> This was sold to me as a “NOS 1972 RCA” for $25 shipped.
> 
> Look what’s inside..
> I was hopeful…
> ...


I got kinda lucky with one and not so lucky with another...but if you just listen to them without thinking about the numbers...sound dam good.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> @bcowen told me about these. So, the 6C4 is 1/2 a 12AU7. They sound very nice. Pairs that I have are the Brimar, Mullard and a made in USA “National”. They seem to prefer the higher gain of the 5998 so far. Very detailed tubes, spacious, vocals do sound accurate and natural.
> 
> From memory, the 2C51 sounded more analytical or precise.. and overall more thin than any three pairs of these. So I do think I prefer the 6C4 but I need to revisit the 2C51 (Western Electric 396A).
> 
> Edit: These sound great! Brimars are definitely a new favorite. I think they’re breaking in as these were all NOS. They seem liked they’ve opened up even more, probably the most detailed tubes I’ve heard yet. Fantastic soundstage.


crap ...just when you thought it was safe to go back in the waters ... #searching


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I got kinda lucky with one and not so lucky with another...but if you just listen to them without thinking about the numbers...sound dam good.


Well the seller is truly delusional. His reply to mine is pure gold. I’ll upload it for you all here. Let’s all put “electric2016” on the DO NOT BUY list. It made my day putting him in his place. The man is clueless to what he’s doing.


----------



## therremans (Oct 1, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> crap ...just when you thought it was safe to go back in the waters ... #searching


It’s worth it! I can confirm that they also sound fantstic with a Mullard 6080 as well. Rich vocals and deep bass, extremely dynamic.

The Mullard 6C4 though are likely not worth buying, as mine never really opened up.. just don’t do much for me. So yes to the Brimar and GE. The thing is plate color and getters vary with all so you’ll have to do your own investigating. (My Brimar and GE are gray plates.)

I have a pair of Fivre on the way!

edit: look on the positive side, you may want to sell most of your 6sn7s after hearing these.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> edit: look on the positive side, you may want to sell most of your 6sn7s after hearing these.


Dude.  I already did that when I went into 6J5 waters.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> It’s worth it! I can confirm that they also sound fantstic with a Mullard 6080 as well. Rich vocals and deep bass, extremely dynamic.
> 
> The Mullard 6C4 though are likely not worth buying, as mine never really opened up.. just don’t do much for me. So yes to the Brimar and GE. The thing is plate color and getters vary with all so you’ll have to do your own investigating. (My Brimar and GE are gray plates.)
> 
> ...


I'm seeing pair of Brimars from $35 to $85... 🤔 Gonna have to do some homework. How's the gain on those?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I'm seeing pair of Brimars from $35 to $85... 🤔 Gonna have to do some homework. How's the gain on those?


Gain is on the high side but they don’t distort like a 6C8G could for example. I have my heaters at 6.3v. I still run my DV at 116v.
DM me the ones you may buy and I can compare them to mine.


----------



## therremans (Oct 1, 2021)

Auction link - Link

Here it is for those who want to read. I purchased a Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP that was advertised as an RCA from 1972 for $25 shipped. Yeah, LOL. It was tested as NOS and it tested remarkably bad. I would of course be nice about this situation considered the price paid but his response is pure gold. The guy is completely daft and is it's worth the read..






No response yet so I sent another..




He responds after I file for a return that the tube wasn't as advertised.




My response.







Aaaand he takes the coward way out. Ignores my message and has nothing to say.




Loss for words.

This will be the first negative feedback I have left in over a decade.

If you are also confused, he thought the Hickok 800A min/new test values I mentioned in my message were me bragging about how expensive my tester was. This guy defines thick headed.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It’s worth it! I can confirm that they also sound fantstic with a Mullard 6080 as well. Rich vocals and deep bass, extremely dynamic.
> 
> The Mullard 6C4 though are likely not worth buying, as mine never really opened up.. just don’t do much for me. So yes to the Brimar and GE. The thing is plate color and getters vary with all so you’ll have to do your own investigating. (My Brimar and GE are gray plates.)
> 
> *I have a pair of Fivre on the way!*


 Tube slut.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Auction link - Link
> 
> Here it is for those who want to read. I purchased a Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP that was advertised as an RCA from 1972 for $25 shipped. Yeah, LOL. It was tested as NOS and it tested remarkably bad. I would of course be nice about this situation considered the price paid but his response is pure gold. The guy is completely daft and is it's worth the read..
> 
> ...


I guess you should just be happy you didn't buy one of his flute reamers - god knows what you'd have got


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Auction link - Link
> 
> Here it is for those who want to read. I purchased a Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP that was advertised as an RCA from 1972 for $25 shipped. Yeah, LOL. It was tested as NOS and it tested remarkably bad. I would of course be nice about this situation considered the price paid but his response is pure gold. The guy is completely daft and is it's worth the read..
> 
> ...


LOL!  Too much.  Wish I'd saved a couple emails from "Old_Guy_Radiola" (the predecessor to BangyBang).  He didn't mince words in calling me a stupid, uneducated, dumbass MF'er when I politely questioned why the (obviously) relabeled Tung Sol he was peddling for huge $$ had etched dots on the glass.  "GE never made tubes you moron" was the funniest part of his response, other than threatening to turn me into the Tube Sellers Association for prosecution.  From what I heard he sold all his inventory to BangyBang and got out of the business, so it's not the same person (but they HAVE to be related somehow ).

But I'm confused on how much your tester cost.  Was it $300, $1300, or $2600?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Tube slut.


You know it! 😂😂 Made him an offer for $30 and he accepted.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I guess you should just be happy you didn't buy one of his flute reamers - god knows what you'd have got


Wait!  What?!?  He has _flute reamers_?  Sorry, @therremans but the blacklist thing will have to wait for a bit.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> But I'm confused on how much your tester cost.  Was it $300, $1300, or $2600?


Haha somewhere in there. Whoever set it up did a banging job. It’s able to sort out the liars quite well.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> But I'm confused on how much your tester cost.  Was it $300, $1300, or $2600?


Well you know, Hickok 800A.  Obviously 800.  American Dollars.  Namedropping and showing off as usual.  Lol.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Well you know, Hickok 800A.  Obviously 800.  American Dollars.  Namedropping and showing off as usual.  Lol.


Yeah, really.  Especially since the "A" is a 10x multiplier.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wait!  What?!?  He has _flute reamers_?  Sorry, @therremans but the blacklist thing will have to wait for a bit.


Sorry, bcowen 😭, Yankees only…from Electric2016…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Sorry, bcowen 😭, Yankees only…from Electric2016…


I lived in New York when I was a young'un.  Does that count?


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Sorry, bcowen 😭, Yankees only…from Electric2016…


The daft ****, you know that will arrive USED and questionable.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I lived in New York when I was a young'un.  Does that count?



I suppose.  But if it doesn't work, what are you realistically expecting from something made in the civil war era?   Obviously the guy fully tested that reamer before he listed it. The musical industry is all he knows, and knows all instruments well.  He's got hundreds of reamers lined up and ready to test and ream away.   Because it was made by the yankees and they are the best baseball team ever!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I lived in New York when I was a young'un.  Does that count?


In fact, I read various accounts of you hanging out with Saul Marantz, Sidney Harman, and Avery Fisher…all breaking new sonic (and behavioural) ground…


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I suppose.  But if it doesn't work, what are you realistically expecting from something made in the civil war era?   Obviously the guy fully *self-*tested that reamer before he listed it. 🥺😱😏…


FTFY [Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I suppose.  But if it doesn't work, what are you realistically expecting from something made in the civil war era?   Obviously the guy fully tested that reamer before he listed it. The musical industry is all he knows, and knows all instruments well.  He's got hundreds of reamers lined up and ready to test and ream away.   Because it was made by the yankees and they are the best baseball team ever!


All true and great words of wisdom.  But I have a fully calibrated flute reamer tester so I'll know immediately if he's trying to, um, _shaft_ me.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> In fact, I read various accounts of you hanging out with Saul Marantz, Sidney Harman, and Avery Fisher…all breaking new sonic (and behavioural) ground…


Yes, after I taught them all I know I decided to move south.  Great decision, especially for the BBQ.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> All true and great words of wisdom.  But I have a fully calibrated flute reamer tester so I'll know immediately if he's trying to, um, _shaft_ me.


The obvious question: is there a calibrator / calibratee in resetting a flute reamer? [The foremost and most applicable inquiry in a DV thread…?]


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yes, after I taught them all I know I decided to move south.  Great decision, especially for the BBQ.


…NC gain, TX loss…IN sideline…


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> The daft ****, you know that will arrive USED and questionable.


The only time that you don’t want NOS (never off service)…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The obvious question: is there a calibrator / calibratee in resetting a flute reamer? [The foremost and most applicable inquiry in a DV thread…?]


Everyone knows you can't reset a flute reamer without a flute reamer resetter.  I don't currently have one, but I'm saving up.    

Then there's the Ebay seller with 'refurbished' tubes:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1137850109...3D%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675&epid=168120747

As soon as I score the reamer resetter, I'll start saving up for a Hickok 800R, which is of course the 800Refurbisher.  Just hope I can find one in decent condition so that I don't have to refurbish it.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Everyone knows you can't reset a flute reamer without a flute reamer resetter.  I don't currently have one, but I'm saving up.
> 
> Then there's the Ebay seller with 'refurbished' tubes:
> 
> ...


Hickok 800Rereamer?…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I did not plug the Utopias into the DarkVoice, the noise was so bad with other headphones I knew the Focals would only point it out even more. I used the DV to test some tubes for you but otherwise I have not turned it on. I have been really busy so I do not know when I will get around to modifying the DV, maybe one day.
> 
> Also some of my favorite tubes do even worse in the DV, I have tried most 6sn7's made and only use specific Melz tubes at this time. My tube rolling is comprised of different years and variations of the 1578. YMMV but as far as I am concerned nothing else compares in my amps and with my headphones so I have reached my happy place with tubes. Normally I will use Tung Sol 5998's or Chatham bottom getter 6as7g's. I am near the end of my journey on 6sn7's and 6AS7G equivalents but I certainly wish others well.


Well I trust your final result on both the 6AS7G and 6SN7, will be cutting through the chase based on it. In fact I don't regret getting the Raytheon 6SN7 T Plate as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Does this mean you'll stop Bogarting the good tubes and the rest of us can finally get some


In fact he stopped coz none were left to his liking. 😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Shhhhh.  @Paladin79 might hear you and he's done (and pigs will be flying soon too).  More importantly, I haven't stashed up yet.  Brimars, huh?


Agree, new findings should be exchanged in private conversations from @Paladin79 or the hoarding spree will resume.....Once a hoarder always a hoarder 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Auction link - Link
> 
> Here it is for those who want to read. I purchased a Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP that was advertised as an RCA from 1972 for $25 shipped. Yeah, LOL. It was tested as NOS and it tested remarkably bad. I would of course be nice about this situation considered the price paid but his response is pure gold. The guy is completely daft and is it's worth the read..
> 
> ...


Well he's clearly a novice trying to make few bucks with a trade he don't know a crap about.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yes, after I taught them all I know I decided to move south.  Great decision, especially for the BBQ.


"going/moving south" is not a good thing normally unless the BBQ makes up for it lol 😍😍😍🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Hickok 800Rereamer?…


Remember it's a million $ Hickok 😁


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> "going/moving south" is not a good thing normally unless the BBQ makes up for it lol 😍😍😍🤣🤣🤣


It's like salsa made in New York City.  Just....no.  In fact, when it comes to salsa I'll have to give the nod to Texas over NC.  I know, I know....first, I actually paid money for some GE tubes, and now a compliment to Texas.  I'm pretty sure I have dementia.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Agree, new findings should be exchanged in private conversations from @Paladin79 or the hoarding spree will resume.....Once a hoarder always a hoarder 😁😁😁


You have to remember that my group and I listened to 6sn7 equivalents as well, 6J5's and the like but we mainly kept to single triode tubes that were forerunners of the 6sn7.
You are in a great position since you can try more and more new tubes and find many you appreciate. 
 There are only a couple years I am missing from the golden age of Melz so I am happy to search for just those.  I tend to only listen to amps I designed or those I heavily modified to my liking. Maybe one day even a DV. 

Oh yeah I looked through all available Melz this morning and only bought one perforated plate for $37 shipping included. Possibly a diamond in the rough.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember that my group and I listened to 6sn7 equivalents as well, 6J5's and the like but we mainly kept to single triode tubes that were forerunners of the 6sn7.
> You are in a great position since you can try more and more new tubes and find many you appreciate.
> There are only a couple years I am missing from the golden age of Melz so I am happy to search for just those.  I tend to only listen to amps I designed or those I heavily modified to my liking. Maybe one day even a DV.
> 
> Oh yeah I looked through all available Melz this morning and only bought one perforated plate for $37 shipping included. Possibly a diamond in the rough.


My plan is finally coming together.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My plan is finally coming together.


LOL well its worth a try I suppose. I was a little shocked this morn when I found those for as much as $35 each.   Lesser Melz were going for $85 up.


----------



## Galapac

Then you better stock up @bcowen. Here are 5 lots available for $2.50 a piece before shipping!


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Then you better stock up @bcowen. Here are 5 lots available for $2.50 a piece before shipping!


ROFL!  I hope he packs them better than that for shipping.   

I have a couple left though, so I'm good for now.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Then you better stock up @bcowen. Here are 5 lots available for $2.50 a piece before shipping!


Oh, and finally getting around to the adapter.  Depending on my wife's plan of crap for me to do today, I might even finish it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember that my group and I listened to 6sn7 equivalents as well, 6J5's and the like but we mainly kept to single triode tubes that were forerunners of the 6sn7.
> You are in a great position since you can try more and more new tubes and find many you appreciate.
> There are only a couple years I am missing from the golden age of Melz so I am happy to search for just those.  I tend to only listen to amps I designed or those I heavily modified to my liking. Maybe one day even a DV.
> 
> Oh yeah I looked through all available Melz this morning and only bought one perforated plate for $37 shipping included. Possibly a diamond in the rough.


The Melz you sent my way is one of my preferred in fact regardless of the year, they had a good run.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I hope he packs them better than that for shipping.
> 
> I have a couple left though, so I'm good for now.


Jesus man, and I thought @Paladin79 was the hoarder. Here comes the king of Fotons 😲😲😲


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Oh, and finally getting around to the adapter.  Depending on my wife's plan of crap for me to do today, I might even finish it.


Yes Sunday's crap plan, a Wife specialty I agree especially when they see you resting and preparing a drink or even worse when they see a headphone on your head 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It's like salsa made in New York City.  Just....no.  In fact, when it comes to salsa I'll have to give the nod to Texas over NC.  I know, I know....first, I actually paid money for some GE tubes, and now a compliment to Texas.  I'm pretty sure I have dementia.


Ordering more GE tubes is the worst case of dementia 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

BTW anyone had the chance to try the new Schiit Loki Mini Plus, it's pretty cheap but not sure it's worth introducing within the music chain.


----------



## therremans




----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


>


Hope you're not poking a bear here.
From the messages you've posted, clearly he knows something about reaming😱


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


ROFL!


----------



## bcowen (Oct 3, 2021)

Galapac said:


> When you make the adapter can you take a few photos to show the process?


Finally.  I ignored the wife and got it done.

Ye Olde Boxe:




Holes cut:




Sockets and octal base installed:




Wiring to octal base.  Neotech 22 gauge stranded copper.  I usually use 20 gauge, but as you need 2 leads in each heater pin, the 20 gauge was just a hair too big to fit. Heater wires twisted together just in case it helps eliminate noise.




Wiring completed to 7-pin sockets:




Final test in the Hickok.  With 6SN7 test settings this pair of TungSol 6C4's (which had dead-on NOS GM values when tested as 6C4's) measure a touch lower than a NOS 6SN7.  As they should -- the 6C4 has just a bit less gain than a 6SN7 (19.5 vs 20).  Should work fine in the Incubus.





And they _do_ work. Just fine. 




As far as the 6C4's?  Only advice I can offer is do *not* under any circumstances buy any of these tubes.

Yet.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I hope he packs them better than that for shipping.
> 
> I have a couple left though, so I'm good for now.


Fotonopoly: @bcowen; Fotonoscopy: anyone =/= @bcowen…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Finally.  I ignored the wife and got it done.
> 
> Ye Olde Boxe:
> 
> ...


Nicely executed 👍👍


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Finally.  I ignored the wife and got it done.
> 
> Ye Olde Boxe:
> 
> ...


That work is impressive! The only word: WOW!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Auction link - Link
> 
> Here it is for those who want to read. I purchased a Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP that was advertised as an RCA from 1972 for $25 shipped. Yeah, LOL. It was tested as NOS and it tested remarkably bad. I would of course be nice about this situation considered the price paid but his response is pure gold. The guy is completely daft and is it's worth the read..
> 
> ...


LMAO 🤣🤣 wow ...I think you touched a nerve ....😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


KEY: “when & where it matters”. There is no direct evidence that testing / selling tubes is applicable here…


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> KEY: “when & where it matters”. There is no direct evidence that testing / selling tubes is applicable here…


He basically admits here that he has no knowledge of tubes and doesn’t care. But he knows stuff ‘when and where’ it matters to him. That gives great confidence to the buyer, huh?


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> He basically admits here that he has no knowledge of tubes and doesn’t care. But he knows stuff ‘when and where’ it matters to him. That gives great confidence to the buyer, huh?


You 👍  Ferenc 👎


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> He basically admits here that he has no knowledge of tubes and doesn’t care. But he knows stuff ‘when and where’ it matters to him. That gives great confidence to the buyer, huh?


It's hard to tell if you are are angry with buyer or just toying with him.
From what he is selling he appears to be a guy that found a bunch of junk in his  garage and is offloading without truly knowing what any of it is.
He looks like he tore a whole car apart to sell by the piece. 

He never stated any testing of the tube other than  "*1972 TESTED*" - which is an indication that he knew nothing about vacuum tubes.
He only has one other for sale.
This had red flags all over it.

You were hoping for a bargain and it didn't turn out. 
At least you get your money refunded, the time wasted, not so much.

I think we can all relate to one of these sellers...but I have had worse...as a buyer and seller.


----------



## therremans (Oct 4, 2021)

Galapac said:


> It's hard to tell if you are are angry with buyer or just toying with him.
> From what he is selling he appears to be a guy that found a bunch of junk in his  garage and is offloading without truly knowing what any of it is.
> He looks like he tore a whole car apart to sell by the piece.
> 
> ...


Not sure if you read it all but yeah I was never angry and almost had a bargain TS. It turned into playing with him due to his first response back to me. It was ridiculous and uncalled for.

Yes, I think he bought a storage locker or something and stole another seller’s tube description on eBay. He peddles things on the side of for a living and doesn’t know crap about tubes. Which is fine but don’t act like a child and misinterpret everything and become defensive because I returned a near dead tube that was sold as new. The tube arrived in a bubble mailer only, no box. FYI,


----------



## therremans

This unbranded black glass 6SN7GT (National Union, I believe) arrived today, I paid just $12.99 for it, it was listed as tested and ended up testing above NOS levels. but, is just a touch microphonic.. which won’t matter on the DV. It sounds very nice.


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> It's hard to tell if you are are angry with buyer or just toying with him.
> From what he is selling he appears to be a guy that found a bunch of junk in his  garage and is offloading without truly knowing what any of it is.
> He looks like he tore a whole car apart to sell by the piece.
> 
> ...


Maybe he meant it was last tested in 1972... 😂🤣


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> Maybe he meant it was last tested in 1972... 😂🤣


I believe that’s what it was…tested in 1972, sticker on the tube, lol.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Maybe he meant it was last tested in 1972... 😂🤣


No, he thought it was from 1972 and was shocked that I would think something that old would work well. “What would you expect from something from 1972”.

There was a small label with the handwritten date something like, “3/2/72 ok” it was tested in 72’. But he assumed this was the date it was made.


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> This unbranded black glass 6SN7GT (National Union, I believe) arrived today, I paid just $12.99 for it, it was listed as tested and ended up testing above NOS levels. but, is just a touch microphonic.. which won’t matter on the DV. It sounds very nice.


Looks like either a NU or a Brimar. good find!


----------



## therremans (Oct 4, 2021)

My girlfriend had to look him up and show me his profile.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> My girlfriend had to look him up and show me his profile.


He looks like Victor on Storage Wars, Texas.  Mega slimeball.


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> Looks like either a NU or a Brimar. good find!


The date code and some other things tell me it’s a National Union. WP could mean it’s a later tube from 1959.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> My girlfriend had to look him up and show me his profile.


That is quite an automobile! I wonder if it’s his….’reamed’ a few eBayers?….


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I think we can all relate to one of these sellers...but I have had worse...as a buyer and seller.


LOL!  Right on with that.  Below was an absolutely mint condition Heathkit TT-1A tube tester.  The moron seller thought it would be a good idea to hand it to the Post Office with no packaging whatsoever for its journey from Oregon to NC.  When I sent him the pictures upon arrival, he stated that he didn't put all that tape on it, he only wrapped around it a couple of times with clear tape so it wouldn't pop open.  The USPS tape was presumably added by the Post Office along the way as bits and chunks of it started breaking and falling off.  And then the funny part happened:  he stated he gave it to the Post Office in perfect condition, so it was their fault it was all busted up.  He was kind enough to wish me luck talking with them about getting my money back.   Ebay refunded my money in pretty short order and sent a call tag to pick it up, but even the claim process was hilarious because every time he had to respond he started out with "It's not my fault."  At first I was pissed, and not so much because of him refusing to accept responsibility but because his ignorant negligence resulted in the destruction of a fantastic (and irreplaceable) piece of vintage equipment.  Grrrr.  My anger turned to amazement and finally loud chuckles as the depth of his cluelessness was peeled back layer by layer.  I kept wondering how someone like that could get through life without a chaperone, or maybe even a seeing-brain dog.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That is quite an automobile! I wonder if it’s his….’reamed’ a few eBayers?….


I saw one similar to that in a parking lot a while ago, and I took a picture too.


----------



## Deceneu808

I can't figure out if these are shiny black plates or not. I lost the first Melz I was going to buy.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-MELZ-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I can't figure out if these are shiny black plates or not. I lost the first Melz I was going to buy.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-MELZ-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


They are indeed the proper plates and meet all the criteria for a very good Melz tube including the date of manufacture.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> They are indeed the proper plates and meet all the criteria for a very good Melz tube including the date of manufacture.


Looking at the above link and I found this tube…
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165109735529

I know a cracked base is (mostly) harmless on a 6SN7, hows about these metal base ones


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> Looking at the above link and I found this tube…
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165109735529
> 
> I know a cracked base is (mostly) harmless on a 6SN7, hows about these metal base ones


You can always apply a dab of solder to the crack(s).


----------



## Mr Trev

Mr Trev said:


> Looking at the above link and I found this tube…
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165109735529
> 
> I know a cracked base is (mostly) harmless on a 6SN7, hows about these metal base ones


Fess up. Who ninja'd in and bought it?


----------



## Galapac (Oct 5, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Fess up. Who ninja'd in and bought it?


I don't think it was one of us, we are of a higher caliber than that!
It looks like a reseller from the Ukraine bought it up from under you.
See if he relists it next week.

EDIT: Sorry that was the seller, not sure who but sucks if someone bought it before you could.


----------



## Mr Trev

Galapac said:


> I don't think it was one of us, we are of a higher caliber than that!
> It looks like a reseller from the Ukraine bought it up from under you.
> See if he relists it next week.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry that was the seller, not sure who but sucks if someone bought it before you could.


Yah, I was more interested if the cracked base was an issue or not. Besides, my Vali2 is kind of meh with 6sn7s so the only reason I'd get one of those Melz is the cool glowy holes in the plates.
And to top things off I need to get earpads for 2 of my headphones, I can't afford to buy tubes (why the hell does foam and pleather cost so damn much?)


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Fess up. Who ninja'd in and bought it?


Well, I doubt that it was Ferenc. That would require expertise….


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Fess up. Who ninja'd in and bought it?


I believe it was gone when I looked to see which tube you were talking about and I would not buy it out from under you anyway.


----------



## therremans

Wasn’t I.


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Yah, I was more interested if the cracked base was an issue or not. Besides, my Vali2 is kind of meh with 6sn7s so the only reason I'd get one of those Melz is the cool glowy holes in the plates.
> And to top things off I need to get earpads for 2 of my headphones, I can't afford to buy tubes (why the hell does foam and pleather cost so damn much?)



I have a melz with a cracked metal base, but it was not an issue at all with the tube I have.  It plays fine, sounds great, no issues.


----------



## maketus

if i replace 6sn7 1k cathode resistor, some 300ohm,, is 0.25-1w enough


----------



## bcowen

maketus said:


> if i replace 6sn7 1k cathode resistor, some 300ohm,, is 0.25-1w enough


I would use a 1/2 watt or higher.  Why are you changing the resistance value?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> The date code and some other things tell me it’s a National Union. WP could mean it’s a later tube from 1959.


My vote is NU, it has WP stamped on it? (the NU I have that looks like that one is 4/57 on the box and 247 309 stamped  on the tube)


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Looking at the above link and I found this tube…
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165109735529
> 
> I know a cracked base is (mostly) harmless on a 6SN7, hows about these metal base ones


dam..someone got a good deal on that one. Cracked base adds a little something to it too. I was gonna say the base is just cosmetic but then remembered about the heat these guys generate. Been a long time.. One of my amps has tubes I set in it three or four months ago!  What should I burn my fingers to tonight... ahh maybe tomorrow..


----------



## Deceneu808 (Oct 6, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> They are indeed the proper plates and meet all the criteria for a very good Melz tube including the date of manufacture.


Ordered one and a pair of '52 Fotons


----------



## maketus

bcowen said:


> would use a 1/2 watt or higher. Why are you changing the resistance value?


I read another site, allows for a much more steady biasing voltage?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Ordered one and a pair of '52 Fotons


Very nice, oftentimes those are the brands and types I would include with amps I designed unless the recipient already had a large collection of 6sn7's.


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> Ordered one and a pair of '52 Fotons


There is a pair of Fotons that is not owned by @bcowen?…😆


----------



## Deceneu808

jonathan c said:


> There is a pair of Fotons that is not owned by @bcowen?…😆


If you shop in EU time yes. You can find some


----------



## Deceneu808

Spilling the beans. I even found a '51 Foton for sale

https://www.ebay.com/usr/1985max22012?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Spilling the beans. I even found a '51 Foton for sale
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/1985max22012?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


He has an interesting assortment of Melz as well and I have not had issues with any of my purchases from that seller.


----------



## sam6550a

maketus said:


> I read another site, allows for a much more steady biasing voltage?


It will definitely change the bias voltage, but I would not change circuit values because you read it on the internet. You really need to understand the circuit before you start changing things, or bad things may happen.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 6, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> It will definitely change the bias voltage, but I would not change circuit values because you read it on the internet. You really need to understand the circuit before you start changing things, or bad things may happen.


I was trying to think of a nice way to say the very same thing, well done Sam!

Finnegan and I are helping a neighbor with some coaxial cables, he likes to be a part of most anything in my shop. Right now he is inside a Canare tool case trying to keep the connectors warm.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I was trying to think of a nice way to say the very same thing, well done Sam!
> 
> Finnegan and I are helping a neighbor with some coaxial cables, he likes to be a part of most anything in my shop. Right now he is inside a Canare tool case trying to keep the connectors warm.


Thanks for the compliment, Tom! I want to assure that no persons, tubes, amplifiers, or felines are harmed in pursuit of this hobby.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> My vote is NU, it has WP stamped on it? (the NU I have that looks like that one is 4/57 on the box and 247 309 stamped  on the tube)


Yeah


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I was trying to think of a nice way to say the very same thing, well done Sam!
> 
> Finnegan and I are helping a neighbor with some coaxial cables, he likes to be a part of most anything in my shop. Right now he is inside a Canare tool case trying to keep the connectors warm.


“He likes to be a part…”: as Senior Vice President of Quality Assurance at Palad Industries, his curiosity is good for business 👍…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> There is a pair of Fotons that is not owned by @bcowen?…😆


Dangit!  I'm slipping.  But since @Deceneu808 got them, I'm happy.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> It will definitely change the bias voltage, but I would not change circuit values because you read it on the internet. You really need to understand the circuit before you start changing things, or bad things may happen.


Big +1.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was trying to think of a nice way to say the very same thing, well done Sam!
> 
> Finnegan and I are helping a neighbor with some coaxial cables, he likes to be a part of most anything in my shop. Right now he is inside a Canare tool case trying to keep the connectors warm.


I'm surprised he didn't _eat_ the Canare's.  I mean being a cat and all.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm surprised he didn't _eat_ the Canare's. I mean being a cat and all.


I think that Finnegan has that “who, me?” look…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> I think that Finnegan has that “who, me?” look…


Finnegan did not try for tiny little connector parts, he got his paws on various dies for crimping, made of steel or iron, he is a semi-serious cat.


----------



## therremans

Here are some 1950s Foton’s, ribbed plates. I already own a good example so please buy if you want. I forgot to post this here a couple weeks ago but you all reminded me.

He will only sell in pairs. I tried buying the highest rated single one but he declined me.. he has 5 tubes…  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-6N8S-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Here are some 1950s Foton’s, ribbed plates. I already own a good example so please buy if you want. I forgot to post this here a couple weeks ago but you all reminded me.
> 
> He will only sell in pairs. I tried buying the highest rated single one but he declined me.. he has 5 tubes…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-6N8S-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Great price on those, all 1956 or earlier. I'll hold off buying them for the next 24 hours 'cause I'm such a nice guy.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Here are some 1950s Foton’s, ribbed plates. I already own a good example so please buy if you want. I forgot to post this here a couple weeks ago but you all reminded me.
> 
> He will only sell in pairs. I tried buying the highest rated single one but he declined me.. he has 5 tubes…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-6N8S-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Try telling him that once you do the metric conversion pair=single


----------



## Mr Trev

I see he also has some of those gu 50 listed - not to mention a working accordion!
@Paladin79 what was the verdict on those tubes?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Here are some 1950s Foton’s, ribbed plates. I already own a good example so please buy if you want. I forgot to post this here a couple weeks ago but you all reminded me.
> 
> He will only sell in pairs. I tried buying the highest rated single one but he declined me.. he has 5 tubes…
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-6N8S-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Is it Foton week? Warming up the Barbie...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Is it Foton week? Warming up the Barbie...


It's _always_ Foton week.  Unless you're filthy rich and it's always Melz week.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It's _always_ Foton week.  Unless you're filthy rich and it's always Melz week.


What about Western Electric week?…not for the weak of wallet…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What about Western Electric week?…not for the weak of wallet…


That's when you're _disgustingly_ filthy rich.  Or bought them a long, _long _time ago before they were disgustingly filthy expensive.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> I see he also has some of those gu 50 listed - not to mention a working accordion!
> @Paladin79 what was the verdict on those tubes?


I prefer the German version but the GU 50 is readily available at a low price. Telefunken LS 50 is far superior but less available. You need to understand how to adapt the cages so either type fits, and how to bridge a pentode to work as a triode. But you can end up with a quality SET amp if you know what you are doing.😎 I like the sound with Telefunken driver tubes.

I made this one with such tubes to win a bet. I rarely lose wagers involving tubes. Only 15 watts total but a wonderful Class A sound with efficient speakers. It is an amp worth hanging onto and one day I will adapt it for headphones.

Cabinet is tiger maple and white walnut, an amp also has to be pretty for me to use it.


----------



## therremans

Haha he only gave me 50% back? This guy is too much. Now I have to dispute it and waste eBay’s time with this child.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Haha he only gave me 50% back? This guy is too much. Now I have to dispute it and waste eBay’s time with this child.


Jesus. Yo, that M****screwer....


----------



## therremans (Oct 7, 2021)

eBay sided with me with a courtesy refund. So that means he got to keep that 50% difference. Yep, I left a 500 character negative feedback. I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve had to leave negative feedback, could be 15 or 20 years.

He claimed I may have sent back another tube and he cannot sell this since it has the real test data and not a tested in 1972 “ok” sticker, huh?, oh and he said he does “thousands of sales per year” but has a (non 100% )feedback count of 357 since 2016..


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I rarely lose wagers involving tubes.


…we hold these truths to be self-evident…


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Haha he only gave me 50% back? This guy is too much. Now I have to dispute it and waste eBay’s time with this child.


Ferenc?


----------



## jonathan c (Oct 8, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> I see he also has some of those gu 50 listed - not to mention a working accordion.


But no accordion reamer…


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Is it Foton week? Warming up the Barbie...


I hope the Star Wars Trooper shoes can sustain extreme heat or he will be glued on the DV forever 🙂🙂


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Ferenc?


Yes


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It's _always_ Foton week.  Unless you're filthy rich and it's always Melz week.


Well before the spree 🙄 Melz used to be a reasonably priced tube, not anymore with none in circulation 😉


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> What about Western Electric week?…not for the weak of wallet…


You can always exchange the empty wallet for a bunch of GE tubes, you can even keep the wallet 😜😜


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> eBay sided with me with a courtesy refund. So that means he got to keep that 50% difference. Yep, I left a 500 character negative feedback. I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve had to leave negative feedback, could be 15 or 20 years.
> 
> He claimed I may have sent back another tube and he cannot sell this since it has the real test data and not a tested in 1972 “ok” sticker, huh?, oh and he said he does “thousands of sales per year” but has a (non 100% )feedback count of 357 since 2016..


Good you got your money.  That dude is unfreakingbelievable.  Yeah his comment at the very end translates to: I have never had a buyer (call me out on my lies) *cough cough* behave like this.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Good you got your money.  That dude is unfreakingbelievable.  Yeah his comment at the very end translates to: I have never had a buyer (call me out on my lies) *cough cough* behave like this.


Does anyone know how feedback works? My negative feedback is now gone, I assume he disputed it and they pulled it as it’s under review.


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 8, 2021)

therremans said:


> Does anyone know how feedback works? My negative feedback is now gone, I assume he disputed it and they pulled it as it’s under review.


I was just looking at his profile.  Yeah if you put a negative review - it hasn't posted yet.

You can also legit add fraud then to your claim.  That dude claims "**30-DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ON ALL MY ITEMS--NO QUESTIONS ASKED**" *yet he only refunding you half your money.   what a freaking slimeball.

Ebay policy on feedback:  https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/feedback-policies/feedback-policies?id=4208


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Does anyone know how feedback works? My negative feedback is now gone, I assume he disputed it and they pulled it as it’s under review.


Probably been withdrawn after he disputed it and since you got 100% total refund, seems he is generating a good volume of purchases


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> You can always exchange the empty wallet for a bunch of GE tubes, you can even keep the wallet 😜😜


I’d rather have an Orvis vacuum wallet than a GE vacuum tube…


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Yes


A creep never changes his slime…👎


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well before the spree 🙄 Melz used to be a reasonably priced tube, not anymore with none in circulation 😉


The better Melz used to be around $90-$100 each but now fetch $150 at times. The Russian sellers are now trying to get larger amounts for the lesser ones since the 1578 type is in high demand. What you may want to look for are the perforated plate, oval mica Melz, they do not have the detail of the prime year 1578"s but they are decent.  A 1961 Melz 1578 might get a score of 97 or 98 on my system but the oval mica with perforated plate has been known to hit 92 or 93 and if you shop around enough, bargains can be found. It took me a long time to find Russian sellers I knew and trusted but they are certainly out there.

As far as buying from Ebay, in the past if I was unsatisfied with a product and the seller was hesitant to help, I merely told folks at PayPal and they shut down his transactions till the matter was corrected. One such seller was shut down at the start of the Christmas season so he shipped me the proper merchandise next day air just so he could go on selling product. I cannot swear it is the same way now but it was at one time.


bcowen said:


> It's _always_ Foton week.  Unless you're filthy rich and it's always Melz week.


@bcowen knows there are ways to pay for a hobby and still break even or come out ahead. I have a fund set up I keep separate from other monies with which I buy tubes or amps or DAC's, etc. Most who know me can understand how I built up that fund but I also use it to help others. I might send tubes to someone who had not heard certain brands, or buy a DV just to get the dimensions so I could build case extensions out of hardwoods.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> A 1961 Melz 1578 might get a score of 97 or 98 on my system but the oval mica with perforated plate has been known to hit 92 or 93 and if you shop around enough, bargains can be found. It took me a long time to find Russian sellers I knew and trusted but they are certainly out there.



And that is still pretty close.   I wonder depending on gear if some people would even really be able to tell the difference for example on a less revealing amp or headphone.  

@Paladin79 - I tried even the regular Melz 6n8m (non-perforated, ribbed plate) albeit from 48) and though it was high up there as well - pretty solid in my opinion.  I'm wondering if your group has tested this and what range this tube generally falls under?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> And that is still pretty close.   I wonder depending on gear if some people would even really be able to tell the difference for example on a less revealing amp or headphone.
> 
> @Paladin79 - I tried even the regular Melz 6n8m (non-perforated, ribbed plate) albeit from 48) and though it was high up there as well - pretty solid in my opinion.  I'm wondering if your group has tested this and what range this tube generally falls under?


We have indeed tested most any Melz you can think of, if that has round micas and mica supports at the top I know it did not make our top 52 and I would rank those similar to Fotons, maybe in the mid to high 80's so not too bad but not upper tier.  I personally did pin re-soldering on all Foton and Melz tubes we tested just to be sure the ancient solder was not a factor.


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> But no accordion reamer…


with no Vaseline!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I prefer the German version but the GU 50 is readily available at a low price. Telefunken LS 50 is far superior but less available. You need to understand how to adapt the cages so either type fits, and how to bridge a pentode to work as a triode. But you can end up with a quality SET amp if you know what you are doing.😎 I like the sound with Telefunken driver tubes.
> 
> I made this one with such tubes to win a bet. I rarely lose wagers involving tubes. Only 15 watts total but a wonderful Class A sound with efficient speakers. It is an amp worth hanging onto and one day I will adapt it for headphones.
> 
> Cabinet is tiger maple and white walnut, an amp also has to be pretty for me to use it.


Awesome. Challenge met, challenge won.
I look forward to hearing how your new InGUbus proceeds.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Awesome. Challenge met, challenge won.
> I look forward to hearing how your new InGUbus proceeds.


Well initially I was given a bucket of parts I needed to use, and since I won the bet I was allowed to keep all of those. I upgraded capacitors, resistors and wire as well as the Russian tubes so the amp went from above average to exceptional once I did all of that. It takes me back to days when amps were low powered and speakers were efficient so I really like the sound. It was pretty labor intensive so I doubt I will build any more, I also upgraded the pots to single gang ladder pots so I can control each channel.

Its at the bottom of one of my racks, I tried to make it similar in size to some of the large footprint Schiit gear.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> But no accordion reamer…


I heard that with the right adapter you can use a flute reamer on an accordion.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 8, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen knows there are ways to pay for a hobby and still break even or come out ahead. I have a fund set up I keep separate from other monies with which I buy tubes or amps or DAC's, etc. Most who know me can understand how I built up that fund but I also use it to help others. I might send tubes to someone who had not heard certain brands, or buy a DV just to get the dimensions so I could build case extensions out of hardwoods.


This is true.  In this hobby it's not so much _what _you know but _who_ you know.  That's worked well for me because I know very little but I know a lot of people.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I prefer the German version but the GU 50 is readily available at a low price. Telefunken LS 50 is far superior but less available. You need to understand how to adapt the cages so either type fits, and how to bridge a pentode to work as a triode. But you can end up with a quality SET amp if you know what you are doing.😎 I like the sound with Telefunken driver tubes.
> 
> I made this one with such tubes to win a bet. I rarely lose wagers involving tubes. Only 15 watts total but a wonderful Class A sound with efficient speakers. It is an amp worth hanging onto and one day I will adapt it for headphones.
> 
> Cabinet is tiger maple and white walnut, an amp also has to be pretty for me to use it.


Beautiful amp!  The background....not so much.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Haha he only gave me 50% back? This guy is too much. Now I have to dispute it and waste eBay’s time with this child.


Blocked from ALL his accounts?  Oh dear.  Wonder if he's related to BangyBang.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Beautiful amp!  The background....not so much.


Huh? The only thing I see wrong is the mineral spirits. The odour is the best part… now where's my huffing rag?🤪


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Beautiful amp!  The background....not so much.


Hey! Finnegan and I only have so much workspace for such things. This may have been before I banished my wife to her new pottery shed and I was still ducking pottery shards.😜😜


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Blocked from ALL his accounts?  Oh dear.  Wonder if he's related to BangyBang.


And for $24..... L M F A O !!! What's this world come too!?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Blocked from ALL his accounts?  Oh dear.  Wonder if he's related to BangyBang.


He never read my message so still thinks that sticker was from the 1972 RCA’s Tung-Sol line, when they were pumping out the 6SN7GTs. Prime year for RCA tubes. Now sadly it’s used. You know, because the tube testing 300ma on one triode wasn’t a giveaway. Wish I could be in the same room with that idiot.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Well initially I was given a bucket of parts I needed to use, and since I won the bet I was allowed to keep all of those. I upgraded capacitors, resistors and wire as well as the Russian tubes so the amp went from above average to exceptional once I did all of that. It takes me back to days when amps were low powered and speakers were efficient so I really like the sound. It was pretty labor intensive so I doubt I will build any more, I also upgraded the pots to single gang ladder pots so I can control each channel.
> 
> Its at the bottom of one of my racks, I tried to make it similar in size to some of the large footprint Schiit gear.


No headphone jack?
Sounds like a new project, no?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> No headphone jack?
> Sounds like a new project, no?


I am considering adding that circuit, it will happen one day.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I heard that with the right adapter you can use a flute reamer on an accordion.


If the adapter is too _soft_, the result is a flaccordion…😖


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@bcowen @Paladin79 any advice on "healing" microphonic tubes, if that's even possible (without lab equipment)? Considering getting some of those silicon rings.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen @Paladin79 any advice on "healing" microphonic tubes, if that's even possible (without lab equipment)? Considering getting some of those silicon rings.


I do not use the rings myself, I prefer a solid platform for my personal amps that cut down on vibration. If the vibration reaches a tube, ring or not I have experienced microphony.  Both of my main headphone amps have a two pound copper top plate, 3/4 inch solid wood cabinets etc.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 9, 2021)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen @Paladin79 any advice on "healing" microphonic tubes, if that's even possible (without lab equipment)? Considering getting some of those silicon rings.


With an octal base tube you can_ sometimes_ cure microphony by resoldering the pins.  With a noval base tube, there is no cure I'm aware of.  I've personally had disappointing results with tube dampers.  The microphonics are caused by resonance in the tube's elements and/or proximity of the elements to each other, not the glass.  While dampers may reduce the apparent microphonics to a (small) degree they never eliminate it. I don't like what they do to the sound either, as they seem to negatively affect dynamics, especially microdynamics to my ears.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> With an octal base tube you can_ sometimes_ cure microphony by resoldering the pins.  With a noval base tube, there is no cure I'm aware of.  I've personally had disappointing results with tube dampers.  The microphonics are caused by resonance in the tube's elements and/or proximity of the elements to each other, not the glass.  While dampers may reduce the apparent microphonics to a (small) degree they never eliminate it. I don't like what they do to the sound either, as they seem to negatively affect dynamics, especially microdynamics to my ears.


 In other words....don't use a rubber when you use your tube.  It may make the music safer, but you don't fully feel the sound to the max.  Got it!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey! Finnegan and I only have so much workspace for such things. This may have been before I banished my wife to her new pottery shed and I was still ducking pottery shards.😜😜



"Just in case I'm thirsty when I wake up."


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> In other words....don't use a rubber when you use your tube.  It may make the music safer, but you don't fully feel the sound to the max.  Got it!


----------



## zed1975

I have a question Do the capacitors in parallel with the cathode resistors introduce a change in the sound signature When I have capacitors, I do not have a hum  buzz but I have a stronger signal When there are no capacitors, the signal is weaker but there is a slight hum buzz at 56 ohms
The greater the resistance, the less audible it is Is there a mod that removes the hum buzz


----------



## Galapac

Try searching on LED Mod, Fitz Mod, and heater Mod in this thread in the search bar above.
Many posts on these mods to try to eliminate the DV hum.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> In other words....don't use a rubber when you use your tube.  It may make the music safer, but you don't fully feel the sound to the max.  Got it!


oops..Slade said it better..


----------



## JKDJedi

Galapac said:


> Try searching on LED Mod, Fitz Mod, and heater Mod in this thread in the search bar above.
> Many posts on these mods to try to eliminate the DV hum.


Done em all, and Heater mOd was thee Ticket...


----------



## Galapac

@zed1975
Here is the detailed Heater M0D, courtesy of @L0rdGwyn.

Post in thread 'Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII'
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16182719


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> In other words....don't use a rubber when you use your tube.  It may make the music safer, but you don't fully feel the sound to the max.  Got it!


Without it you may end up with baby tubes 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Without it you may end up with baby tubes 🤣🤣🤣🤣


HAH!!


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Without it you may end up with baby tubes 🤣🤣🤣🤣


LOL!  Problem is that it takes them 60+ years to grow up into NOS adults.  I don't have that long.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Without it you may end up with baby tubes 🤣🤣🤣🤣


You therefore ALWAYS “use a rubber” on those GE tubes that you secretly use…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> You therefore ALWAYS “use a rubber” on those GE tubes that you secretly use…


I only have 1 which I use as a Benchmark when testing crappy tubes, it beats all of them hands down 🤣🤣 and better use ear contraceptive instead of rubber while testing GE tubes 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Problem is that it takes them 60+ years to grow up into NOS adults.  I don't have that long.


Forgot that most of us are already categorized as old farts 😢😢😢


----------



## bcowen

Morning tunes. Chatham 6AS7G and Lansdale-labeled 6100's.  Not sure who made the Lansdales -- the etched stencil-type print on the glass looks like GE's, but there are no etched dots or anything else to confirm that.  The internal construction is identical to an Amperex I have, but who knows if Amperex actually made _that_ tube.  Interestingly, the printing on the pair of GE-labeled 6C4's I have is silkscreened (not etched), so it's possible GE didn't even make those (but I suspect they did).

On first listen there's some of the hardest hitting bass and limitless detail I've yet heard....but I need to let the Lansdales break in a bit.  Quite promising at this point though.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I only have 1 which I use as a Benchmark when testing crappy tubes, it beats all of them hands down 🤣🤣 and better use ear contraceptive instead of rubber while testing GE tubes 😆😆


…GE tubes are like cockroaches…where there is one, there is a ‘gazillion’…


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Forgot that most of us are already categorized as old farts 😢😢😢


With the right attitude (growing old disgracefully), one can be *N*ever *O*ld *S*onofabit**


----------



## Deceneu808




----------



## Melting735

Nice picture. Is the headband safe on burning tube? Hehe


----------



## Mr Trev

Melting735 said:


> Nice picture. Is the headband safe on burning tube? Hehe


Dunno about safe, but the fumes could possibly enhance the listening experience


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Dunno about safe, but the fumes could possibly enhance the listening experience


----------



## HTSkywalker

Melting735 said:


> Nice picture. Is the headband safe on burning tube? Hehe


Probably not hearing back from @Deceneu808 have to do with the consequences of taking this photo 🔥 😂😂


----------



## Deceneu808

Ha. I didn't burn down my house just yet. Photo was very carefully taken just when I had switched on the amp so in theory I had like a safe 60 seconds


----------



## maketus

new purchase to my collection


----------



## therremans (Oct 20, 2021)

maketus said:


> new purchase to my collection


Is this a 1971 RCA 6080?


----------



## maketus

yes


----------



## Mr Trev

Been a while since I made a stupidly off topic post - here's some wood steak knives
https://newatlas.com/materials/steak-knife-hardened-wood-3-times-sharper/

Hardened wood? Maybe a good material for a 336 cabinet? … and back on topic


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Been a while since I made a stupidly off topic post - here's some wood steak knives
> https://newatlas.com/materials/steak-knife-hardened-wood-3-times-sharper/
> 
> Hardened wood? *Maybe a good material for a 336 cabinet? *… and back on topic


It would need to be flameproof as well.


----------



## Deceneu808

Not my intention but ended up with a TS6080 in the DV. Ordered two and one is dead. Any way to repair a tube that won't light up ? It's just dead...


----------



## JKDJedi

Deceneu808 said:


> Not my intention but ended up with a TS6080 in the DV. Ordered two and one is dead. Any way to repair a tube that won't light up ? It's just dead...


The one you have pictured looks like it's lit up, if you mean no sound ...try cleaning the pins.


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> Not my intention but ended up with a TS6080 in the DV. Ordered two and one is dead. Any way to repair a tube that won't light up ? It's just dead...


Reflow pin solder can bring a tube back that isn’t lighting up and I’d then recommend testing it.


----------



## Deceneu808

JKDJedi said:


> The one you have pictured looks like it's lit up, if you mean no sound ...try cleaning the pins.


The one in the picture is the one out of two that IS working. I'll do a resolder and see what's what. I can't find the solder sucker lol


therremans said:


> Reflow pin solder can bring a tube back that isn’t lighting up and I’d then recommend testing it.


Haven't got a tester on hand


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It would need to be flameproof as well.


Exactly why the original casing is metal with furnace like openings 😂😂🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Not my intention but ended up with a TS6080 in the DV. Ordered two and one is dead. Any way to repair a tube that won't light up ? It's just dead...


Re-soldering is your only hope, maybe even clean the pins just in case and good luck 👍


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 3, 2021)

Off topic post of the week: (god, you guys must be getting sick of me)
@bcowen
I found a perfect match for your RX8 - https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/dual-rotary-crighton-cr700w-motorcycle/


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Off topic post of the week: (god, you guy must be getting sick of me)
> @bcowen
> I found a perfect match for your RX8 - https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/dual-rotary-crighton-cr700w-motorcycle/



Jesus - those speeds at that weight....really freaking impressive.


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> Jesus - those speeds at that weight....really freaking impressive.


Indeed. Can't wait to see one tackle the Isle of Man TT


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> Not my intention but ended up with a TS6080 in the DV. Ordered two and one is dead. Any way to repair a tube that won't light up ? It's just dead...


Said the 6SN7 to the 6080: “Hey there! What’s a nice tube like you doing in a place like this?”.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Off topic post of the week: (god, you guys must be getting sick of me)
> @bcowen
> I found a perfect match for your RX8 - https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/dual-rotary-crighton-cr700w-motorcycle/


LOL!  220 HP in a _motorcycle_? Insane!! My RX8 is over 10 times heavier with a (factory spec'ed) 238 HP, and it's fast enough for me. Be fun to try it though....probably smooth as hell all the way up to 10.5k RPM....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  220 HP in a _motorcycle_? Insane!! My RX8 is over 10 times heavier with a (factory spec'ed) 238 HP, and it's fast enough for me. Be fun to try it though....probably smooth as hell all the way up to 10.5k RPM....


Would make lugging UT’s golf bag easy…


----------



## musicinmymind

Wanted suggestion between Darkvoice 336se vs XDUOO TA-30, both will be on 11/11 discount. 

I will be using it to drive HD-800 and HD-650, as this would be my first Tube amp not sure what to expect, so requesting suggestion.


----------



## Mr Trev

musicinmymind said:


> Wanted suggestion between Darkvoice 336se vs XDUOO TA-30, both will be on 11/11 discount.
> 
> I will be using it to drive HD-800 and HD-650, as this would be my first Tube amp not sure what to expect, so requesting suggestion.


+1 for that, been waiting for a smackdown between the DV and the TA-30 myself.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 9, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> +1 for that, been waiting for a smackdown between the DV and the TA-30 myself.


Darkvoice v Xanadu:   WWF?…
A hum-dinger title bout 😖😒…


----------



## therremans

This? Seems very.. expensive. I’d probably not want a DAC / Tube amp combo myself.

Now the TA-26 would be a better comparison. I’d like to compare them but by the internal shots, DV seems to be the winner. Also easier to modify.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> This? Seems very.. expensive. I’d probably not want a DAC / Tube amp combo myself.
> 
> Now the TA-26 would be a better comparison. I’d like to compare them but by the internal shots, DV seems to be the winner. Also easier to modify.



If you're gonna go into that price range at 600-700 dollars, you're better off going with a BHC.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> This? Seems very.. expensive. I’d probably not want a DAC / Tube amp combo myself.
> 
> Now the TA-26 would be a better comparison. I’d like to compare them but by the internal shots, DV seems to be the winner. Also easier to modify.


Stupid me. I mistook the two. Again. I really wish these Chifi companies would adopt something better than the alphabet soup method of product naming

The DV absolutely wins out on the modability front, but if the TA-26 has all the required mods baked in…

Somebody get both of these amps to Joe Rogan ASAP - he'll show us the way!


----------



## musicinmymind

Slade01 said:


> If you're gonna go into that price range at 600-700 dollars, you're better off going with a BHC.



What is BHC?


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> What is BHC?


Bottlehead crack amp kits


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> Wanted suggestion between Darkvoice 336se vs XDUOO TA-30, both will be on 11/11 discount.
> 
> I will be using it to drive HD-800 and HD-650, as this would be my first Tube amp not sure what to expect, so requesting suggestion.


For $700 you can do much better sound wise if you already have a DAC, as a value the DV is superior if you can live with the minor hum 🙂


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> Bottlehead crack amp kits



I am not good in soldering, not sure I can do build with Kits.


----------



## Slade01

I came across this review (from Wijlen) of the TA-26 that does some comparisons with the DV and Crack. 

https://audiofool.reviews/2021/09/12/xduoo-ta-26/


----------



## HTSkywalker

The Feliks Audio Echo MKII for around $700 is excellent


----------



## therremans (Nov 10, 2021)

@bcowen wanted my thoughts on my 6C4s

I made a list of some tracks and ran them back to back..

Output Tube: TS 5998
Headphones: Beyer DT 1990 PRO

Tracks
Oscar Peterson - I only have eyes for you
McCoy Tyner - When Sunny Gets Blue
Dave Brubeck - Cassandra
Bela Flec and the Flectones - Flight of the cosmic hippo
Marvin Gaye - Sexual Healing
MiM0SA - Psychedelic Stereo

(in order)

Lansdale (shiny black plate)
- a little gritty or lacking detail in areas
- developed slight background noise
- low end is rolled off a bit too much which affects depth
- instrument separation is average, not optimal
- less moving

National (GE) (gray plate)
- grit and background noise are gone
- signal slightly stronger
- slightly more midrange emphasis than previous Lansdale but nothing that notable.. (vocal repro is decent)
- low end improved giving more depth, but not notable
- quite crispy high end
- nice sounding tubes, full range capable

Fivre (gray plate)
- Sound is a little more airy
- Good ability to pull out details
- midrange is slightly improved over previous, yet it's loose, not punchy
- Low end isn't quite as low reaching as the National
- Nice high end, pretty well-rounded sound but a little lacking in the bass.
- Where it lacks in low end, it makes up for a smooth mid/high range. (vocals slightly better than national)
- Not as crispy high end as the National (a good thing)
- I like them the best so far. What I want.. more low end extension and more punchy mids. Probably cured with diff headphones.

Brimar (gray plate)
- Low end more pronounced, yet piano high notes are still very detailed
- Nice balanced presentation with great instrument separation
- Mids are wonderful and without the mud, powerful vocals.
- Very detailed tubes with a great full range sound.
- Bass guitar on flight of the cosmic hippo is very clean and detailed
- The best-balanced sound so far, by a fair amount.

Brimar is still king with my collection of 6C4s and a combination that I will probably keep in my amp long term, as it is well.. the best sound I’ve had with all my tube rolling so far.

Edit: I forgot to include my Mullards, but let’s just say.. they went back in the box after listening to the National and Brimar. I’ll revisit them to be sure.


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> @bcowen wanted my thoughts on my 6C4s
> 
> I made a list of some tracks and ran them back to back..
> 
> ...



I am new to darkvoice, still on it way. Where to get Brimar tubes, do I have get one or two.

Please suggest.


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> I am new to darkvoice, still on it way. Where to get Brimar tubes, do I have get one or two.
> 
> Please suggest.


eBay. You’ll need an adapter and a pair of tubes.


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> eBay. You’ll need an adapter and a pair of tubes.


Can you pls give link, there are so many and not sure which one


----------



## JKDJedi

musicinmymind said:


> What is BHC?


If you have to ask...


----------



## jonathan c

musicinmymind said:


> What is BHC?


…🤪…bihydrocannabinol…?…split form of THC?…🤪


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> For $700 you can do much better sound wise if you already have a DAC, as a value the DV is superior if you can live with the minor hum in 60Hz major🙂


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> What is BHC?


Come on guys, don't be mean. 
There you go:
https://bottlehead.com/product/crack-1-1-otl-headphone-amplifier-kit/
AKA BHC and don't you dare ask me about AKA 😋😋


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Well that hum is tube dependent and can vary from major to weaponized (using military grade tubes lol) 😆😆
Was playing polite that's all 😀😀


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> eBay. You’ll need an adapter and a pair of tubes.



Is this right link for these tubes, seems to very expensive. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2651876988...customid=32a9f7be-453f-11ec-87b2-303932383332


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> Is this right link for these tubes, seems to very expensive.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2651876988...customid=32a9f7be-453f-11ec-87b2-303932383332


Bit on the expensive side


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> Is this right link for these tubes, seems to very expensive.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2651876988...customid=32a9f7be-453f-11ec-87b2-303932383332


Yes, that's a Brimar.    There are numerous versions of Brimar 6SN7's out there though, and I'm not experienced enough with them to tell you which are the more preferred ones.  Regardless, that's a steep price....you can find similar ones for less with a little searching (or waiting).


----------



## musicinmymind

bcowen said:


> Yes, that's a Brimar.    There are numerous versions of Brimar 6SN7's out there though, and I'm not experienced enough with them to tell you which are the more preferred ones.  Regardless, that's a steep price....you can find similar ones for less with a little searching (or waiting).



But this is only tube I need to get, darkvoice has two tubes. Which should be other one, also do I need get an adaptor?


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> But this is only tube I need to get, darkvoice has two tubes. Which should be other one, also do I need get an adaptor?


The other tube is a 6AS7G.  One of those, one 6SN7, no adapters needed.


----------



## musicinmymind

bcowen said:


> The other tube is a 6AS7G.  One of those, one 6SN7, no adapters needed.



Thanks


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> Thanks


Yes the adapter is only for tubes the amp isn’t designed to take.

Start out with a 6sn7 and a 6as7g

Search this thread for information

What country do you live in? Are you able to buy on American eBay?


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> Yes the adapter is only for tubes the amp isn’t designed to take.
> 
> Start out with a 6sn7 and a 6as7g
> 
> ...



Live in Dubai, but American ebay will work i suppose. Will try and get both these tubes. Thx for suggestions and help


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> Live in Dubai, but American ebay will work i suppose. Will try and get both these tubes. Thx for suggestions and help


Got it. I will try to help. Buying tubes from Ukraine or Russia may save you some money. It is the cheapest option I can think of.. to get you started with an improved sound over stock Chinese tubes.

Search the threads if you need to read more info on these and how they sound.

Svetlana 6AS7G - older the better but here is one for a lower price. Link

Foton ribbed plate - Link

RCA VT-231 - Link

Ken rad vt-231 - Link


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Got it. I will try to help. Buying tubes from Ukraine or Russia may save you some money. It is the cheapest option I can think of.. to get you started with an improved sound over stock Chinese tubes.
> 
> Search the threads if you need to read more info on these and how they sound.
> 
> ...


And to think only a couple years ago you could pick these up for $35 a _quad_. Wonder what happened to them all?


----------



## bcowen

These were cheaper six months ago, but this still isn't a bad price.  Not my favorite tube personally, but lots of others think they are quite nice. 

(I am not the seller and have never bought anything from this person....just an FYI)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1850718619...wp1%2BoBEIs%3D|clp:2334524|tkp:Bk9SR7rd1IKkXw


----------



## bcowen

And just in case you have a Bad Boy that is getting lonely, get it a Tough Dog as a loyal companion.   

LMAO!!  Where do people come up with these names?  Next time I sell some tubes I'm gonna call them "Meth Addict" or "Home Wrecker" and see if they command a higher price.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> And just in case you have a Bad Boy that is getting lonely, get it a Tough Dog as a loyal companion.
> 
> LMAO!!  Where do people come up with these names?  Next time I sell some tubes I'm gonna call them "Meth Addict" or "Home Wrecker" and see if they command a higher price.


Is bangybang at it again?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> And just in case you have a Bad Boy that is getting lonely, get it a Tough Dog as a loyal companion.
> 
> LMAO!!  Where do people come up with these names?  Next time I sell some tubes I'm gonna call them "Meth Addict" or "Home Wrecker" and see if they command a higher price.


It’s like a 90s t-shirt contest of which old guy is most un-cool.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> And just in case you have a Bad Boy that is getting lonely, get it a Tough Dog as a loyal companion.
> 
> LMAO!!  Where do people come up with these names?  Next time I sell some tubes I'm gonna call them "Meth Addict" or "Home Wrecker" and see if they command a higher price.


Try "Tube Hoarder Victim".


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Try "Tube Hoarder Victim".


LOL!  But what does any of this have to do with @Ripper2860 ??


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But what does any of this have to do with @Ripper2860 ??


I thought that he was your hoarding protege.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I thought that he was your hoarding protege.


No, he was my teacher.  But I drew the line when he started sending me photos of his Barbie doll hoard collection.


----------



## JKDJedi

Sylvania 7A4  Bang For Your Buck? 🤔


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-Tung-S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7N7-Tung-S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


wasn't me.. 😇


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> No, he was my teacher.  But I drew the line when he started sending me photos of his Barbie doll hoard collection.


Rumor has it that you have a collection of unmentionables, and play with them daily.


----------



## JKDJedi

Tung Sol reminds me a lot of the Shuguang Treasure Cv181z. ..


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV2984...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Ripper2860

Great deal but that white looking stuff at the top just below the flashing has me a bit worried.  Is it a reflection or is it indicative of an integrity issue with the tube?  But at $100 USD, I'm sure someone will take a gamble.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> Great deal but that white looking stuff at the top just below the flashing has me a bit worried.  Is it a reflection or is it indicative of an integrity issue with the tube?  But at $100 USD, I'm sure someone will take a gamble.



Damn you guys are sleuths!   But valid.  I can tell you (as it is my listing) it is a reflection - a product of my "professional" crappy picture taking skills.  I would never ever ever sell a tube that had any hint of integrity issues or leaks.    But seriously, you guys made me second guess myself.  I'll have to update the pics in the morning to provide a more accurate detail.   Thanks.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> Great deal but that white looking stuff at the top just below the flashing has me a bit worried.  Is it a reflection or is it indicative of an integrity issue with the tube?  But at $100 USD, I'm sure someone will take a gamble.



@Ripper2860  You are quite right. I'm drinking my coffee this morning to make sure I'm awake and not seeing things, but sure enough, I reexamined the tube....there is slight flashing at the top, I barely notice it because I always looked at the tube mostly  with a light source behind it, or from behind where there is no flashing whatsoever.  Thanks for catching that.   

I looked at early pictures when I first got it.  It's always been there.  Maybe I thought it was normal at the time (being green at tubes) where flashing was normal like some 6SN7s, but yeah - I guess you don't see it alot (or at all on power tubes).

To my end, it always sounded good and didn't have issues with it as far as SQ goes.  But that being said - i'm going to put the disclaimer up and heavily discount it as such.   

You guys are awesome - again, thanks for pointing out these details.  Much appreciated as always.


----------



## Ripper2860

I appreciate your efforts in ensuring prospective buyers are aware of any potential gotchas.  I wish every seller were as diligent and honest.

BTW - you probably know this, chrome  flashing is fine.  White flashing is typically indicative of a compromised seal on the tube.  If the flashing is white or milky - not good.  If silver, its good.  Finding a bit of errant silver flashing outside the typical area is OK as long as it is silver.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> I appreciate your efforts in ensuring prospective buyers are aware of any potential gotchas.  I wish every seller were as diligent and honest.
> 
> BTW - you probably know this, chrome  flashing is fine.  White flashing is typically indicative of a compromised seal on the tube.  If the flashing is white or milky - not good.  If silver, its good.  Finding a bit of errant silver flashing outside the typical area is OK as long as it is silver.



Yeah you know, because I myself don't have a tester.  And literally - these days the "Golden Rule" is lost on a lot of people.  It is the worst thing in the world to have that "I was robbed feeling"....especially when for some people every dollar counts especially in this hobby where it doesn't come cheap.   

The flashing is deceiving - as to my knowledge, I really can't recall seeing it on any 6080/7236 tube.   It is silver on my tube - I definitely know and seen white/milky flashing, if it was that, I for sure would not even have put it up at all.  But all in all, I only had a few hours with this tube, loved it so much, i hid it away.  Lol.    

Still i cut the price in half.   So there you go.  It could be some beginner's diamond in the rough, and i'm happy to support that.


----------



## Ripper2860

WTH.   I bought it.  How can I not when you went to such great lengths to be open and honest.  It was just too good of a deal and I've never tried a GEC.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> WTH.   I bought it.  How can I not when you went to such great lengths to be open and honest.  It was just too good of a deal and I've  never tried a GEC.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- Slade01 broke my streak.  I have now officially fallen off the wagon having not purchased a tube in 6 mos -- until now.


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 16, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> WTH.   I bought it.  How can I not when you went to such great lengths to be open and honest.  It was just too good of a deal and I've never tried a GEC.



LOL.  Awesome!   



Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- Slade01 broke my streak.  I have now officially fallen off the wagon having not purchased a tube in 6 mos -- until now.



Can't pass up good deals in this day and age.  Everything is going up lately.  It's ok to fall off the wagon, just don't land on your a$$ !!!


----------



## Slade01

@Ripper2860 Hey - sorry, I just realized I didn't pack any cliff bars or anything with your package.  Or any Carolina BBQ sauce because you know...im from Jersey.


----------



## Ripper2860

At the price listed, I did not expect a Cliffbar.  Best that the NC "BBQ sauce" was omitted as it would likely have corroded the tube pins in shipment.  Not to mention the added shipping cost for including a corrosive and hazardous chemical.  😏


----------



## Galapac

Slade01 said:


> @Ripper2860 Hey - sorry, I just realized I didn't pack any cliff bars or anything with your package.  Or any Carolina BBQ sauce because you know...im from Jersey.


hmmm Jersey...food dyes and other chemicals come to mind


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> hmmm Jersey...food dyes and other chemicals come to mind



Speaking of which ironically, there is an iconic jersey food item that is named after our good friend @Ripper2860 .  Which is actually a called a "Ripper".  (A Deep Fried Chemicals, Nitrates, Meat Products  Hot Dog).

Famous for Rippers:   https://www.ruttshut.com/


----------



## sam6550a

Slade01 said:


> Speaking of which ironically, there is an iconic jersey food item that is named after our good friend @Ripper2860 .  Which is actually a called a "Ripper".  (A Deep Fried Chemicals, Nitrates, Meat Products  Hot Dog).
> 
> Famous for Rippers:   https://www.ruttshut.com/


Also known as a Newark hot dog or Italian hot dog: https://www.newarkhappening.com/restaurants/foodie-guides/italian-hot-dogs/


----------



## JKDJedi

sam6550a said:


> Also known as a Newark hot dog or Italian hot dog: https://www.newarkhappening.com/restaurants/foodie-guides/italian-hot-dogs/


I'm craving a Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich... not sure why. 😐 They don't make them here in the West like they do in the East.


----------



## Slade01

sam6550a said:


> Also known as a Newark hot dog or Italian hot dog: https://www.newarkhappening.com/restaurants/foodie-guides/italian-hot-dogs/



Yeah that's like a regular Ripper that is elevated.  The pocket bread and all the toppings...its simple but fantastic.  That link has it right - i've been to Dickie Dees in Newark.  It really is one of the best in that area.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I'm craving a Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich... not sure why. 😐 They don't make them here in the West like they do in the East.



A friend of mine that lives outside Los Angeles who is also a foodie told me about a place called Boo's Philly Cheesesteak said they were one of the closest out there to what is in Philly.  He said part of the reason is the bread...they import the bread (Amaroso) from Philly.  The bread is a very often overlooked component but it completes the experience.  

I guess back to tube rolling - have you found any more ways to push the tube rolling on the DV lately?  I would have been almost certain by now you would have tried a Dual Type 76 to 6SN7 adapter.  Lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> A friend of mine that lives outside Los Angeles who is also a foodie told me about a place called Boo's Philly Cheesesteak said they were one of the closest out there to what is in Philly.  He said part of the reason is the bread...they import the bread (Amaroso) from Philly.  The bread is a very often overlooked component but it completes the experience.
> 
> I guess back to tube rolling - have you found any more ways to push the tube rolling on the DV lately?  I would have been almost certain by now you would have tried a Dual Type 76 to 6SN7 adapter.  Lol.


hah, no more adapters for me.. well, new ones that is. Boos Philly Cheese Steak...on it!! Thanks 😊


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> hah, no more adapters for me.. well, new ones that is. Boos Philly Cheese Steak...on it!! Thanks 😊


Me either.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Me either.


Of course you realize now I'm going hunt down some uber-obscure adapter to tempt you with


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Of course you realize now I'm going hunt down some uber-obscure adapter to tempt you with


I'm still working on my 845 adapter (tube on the far right).  Beat that.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Me either.


WOAH!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm still working on my 845 adapter (tube on the far right).  Beat that.


Oh man. That thing crowning an adapter totem for the Vali2 (with a freakishly large bakelite knob), perched on a Schiit stack…
If I wasn't so lazy I'd do a mock rendering, just for giggles


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Oh man. That thing crowning an adapter totem for the Vali2 (with a freakishly large bakelite knob), perched on a Schiit stack…
> If I wasn't so lazy I'd do a mock rendering, just for giggles


Yeah, and it's only a single triode. So you need 2.


----------



## JKDJedi

LM F A O.... wow ...only $500!? These are the L63....no? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/G-E-C-CV10...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> LM F A O.... wow ...only $500!? These are the L63....no?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/G-E-C-CV10...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Correct.  Yeah what pricing.  You know...cuz the sticker.  and the pretty boxes.   Must be it...


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> LM F A O.... wow ...only $500!? These are the L63....no?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/G-E-C-CV10...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


He’s on the audiophile drugz.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Yeah, and it's only a single triode. So you need 2.


Don't forget the 'small' external power supply.


----------



## g3n3r1c (Nov 20, 2021)

I'm a "long time lurker but rare Head-fi poster." After recently acquiring a DV 336SE, I skimmed this _entire thread_ of 792 pages. I came here to diagnose severe hum with some of my otherwise fine 6SN7 tubes and indeed learned a lot. I'm still pondering the DV's quality and best uses as a consumer product. See questions below.

Background: I own a Lyr 3 and built a Bottlehead Crack. In due course I acquired a DV to conduct back-to-back testing in this price bracket. There's a lot to be said about tube amps with a single driver, as it's much easier to explore than with pairs of tubes. All three of these amps balance cost, complexity, value, and functionality (noting that the Crack actually costs much more per the tools, materials, and skills required, plus the failed construction risk for non-experts.) In owning the other two amps I already had an inventory of 6SN7 and 6080/6AS7 tubes. I'll certainly keep my Crack (as I built it myself), but one or both of the other amps may go away.

Observations:


I concur with all prior posts that Russian tubes don't work well. My Fotons and a recent Tung-Sol are unusably buzzy. The factory Chinese tube, my Sylvania tubes, and my tubes with less internal mass buzz the least. I'm unsure if any of my tubes are close to NOS or merely used vintage tubes (no tester). Per the mixed results of DV mods and the presence of competing mods, I'm not inclined to throw more money at a $250 device and instead put the cash toward a different amp. My first inclination is to let the DV be what the DV is: a cheap entry point and niche product. However...? What are its niches?
Niche #1a: Cheap and effective way to drive Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic 300-600 ohm headphones. Even with *factory or GE tubes* I've heard worse from these headphones using more expensive solid state amps. The stock DV's warmth and limited resolution takes the edges off the DT 880, HD 600, and HD 800 S, but makes the HD 6XX too bassy for me. My personal 6SN7s sound about the same on the Lyr 3, suggesting both are moderately transparent to the tubes. Work with it and with non-buzzy tubes rather than try to transform it, and thereby keep the costs low.
Niche #1b (rarely mentioned in this thread): Cheap way to obtain a tube preamp for either a home theater receiver or inexpensive Class D amp. Per my testing with speakers, the DV is "better than nothing" in taking the edges off of solid state amps. It'd likely be a godsend to many owners of Klipsch home theater setups who loved the copper cones and sparkly timbre in a Best Buy. Entry-level buyers may actually find more value in the RCA output jacks than the headphone out.
Niche #2: Potentially a cost-effective, pre-assembled set of parts to compete with the Crack as a mod platform. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, as this thread includes criticism of most everything inside. The pot has no usable range, there's the huge hum issue, there's no space for installing larger caps (hence the wooden base extender in this thread), etc. Are enough of the stock parts worth it to start on costly mods, and is there a clear path forward before reaching Woo and Feliks territory? (Regarding parts costs, the entire amp sells for about $250 but Bottlehead charges $55 for just the four wooden boards to make the Crack's base.) Kits and DIY limit the market to the capable, and the overconfident who screw up and end up with a non-functional heap. Should the DIY community start with the DV at all? If so, many people will require guidance and hand-holding -- likely pushing them back to Bottlehead.

Some of the frequent posters are master craftsmen, hardcore tube rollers, and electronics experts (*RESPECT*). What you all understand and can do goes clean over the heads of the occasional newbie who pops in, as they are almost certainly in Niche #1a. I'm always impressed by the now widely known work of @Paladin79. (I'm still wondering about when he'll release a Succubus amp.) I agree with him in assessing the stock DV as marginal performer out of the box (especially if considering to use it with the Utopia). By their actions, many of the regulars here are in Niche #2.
Some tube rollers in this thread created Jenga towers of tube adapters, and spent way more on tubes than the DV costs up front. I'm pondering whether this is the best avenue into alternative tubes and started shopping for oddball adapters myself, but also wonder whether another platform is a better place to start? Woo? Feliks? A future Bottlehead non-Crack? An off-the-shelf Incubus?
That's all. I'm still lost on Niche #2.


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> Niche #2: Potentially a cost-effective, pre-assembled set of parts to compete with the Crack as a mod platform. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, as this thread includes criticism of most everything inside. The pot has no usable range, there's the huge hum issue, there's no space for installing larger caps (hence the wooden base extender in this thread), etc. Are enough of the stock parts worth it to start on costly mods, and is there a clear path forward before reaching Woo and Feliks territory? (Regarding parts costs, the entire amp sells for about $250 but Bottlehead charges $55 for just the four wooden boards to make the Crack's base.) Kits and DIY limit the market to the capable, and the overconfident who screw up and end up with a non-functional heap. Should the DIY community start with the DV at all? If so, many people will require guidance and hand-holding -- likely pushing them back to Bottlehead.
> That's all. I'm still lost on Niche #2.



There has been a long standing joke when talking about upgrading the DV's internals - where if you sufficiently replaced/upgraded the internals properly -- would it philosophically still be a "Darkvoice" at that point when it is all said and done?    

If you went through the thread - did you catch L0rdGwyn's run at fully modding the DV?  Partially the consensus is that with all the parts and effort involved, the pricing already puts you in a position that you should have afforded a tube amp in a higher tier than the DV.  

You already know Crack with Speedball is a way better starting proposition for a DIYer.   Starting with the DV is like handicapping a DIYer most likely...and goes back to my first thought - it would probably seriously have to be gutted.  

But just my initial 2 cents.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 20, 2021)

g3n3r1c said:


> I'm a "long time lurker but rare Head-fi poster." After recently acquiring a DV 336SE, I skimmed this _entire thread_ of 792 pages. I came here to diagnose severe hum with some of my otherwise fine 6SN7 tubes and indeed learned a lot. I'm still pondering the DV's quality and best uses as a consumer product. See questions below.
> 
> Background: I own a Lyr 3 and built a Bottlehead Crack. In due course I acquired a DV to conduct back-to-back testing in this price bracket. There's a lot to be said about tube amps with a single driver, as it's much easier to explore than with pairs of tubes. All three of these amps balance cost, complexity, value, and functionality (noting that the Crack actually costs much more per the tools, materials, and skills required, plus the failed construction risk for non-experts.) In owning the other two amps I already had an inventory of 6SN7 and 6080/6AS7 tubes. I'll certainly keep my Crack (as I built it myself), but one or both of the other amps may go away.
> 
> ...


Very thoughtful and well said. There is no such thing as an off the shelf Incubus, all are unique in appearance and I built most of them for friends. The amp’s full name is the Incubus Elegan (elegant nightmare) and I need a break from building them so I may only make one more that friends can hear and return to me. Currently I am turning down $2,000 each to build them for the European market but money is not a factor for me right now, I want to pursue other hobbies.

I designed the amp and built four identical units so a local group and I could do a comparison of all 6sn7 tubes and equivalents we could lay our hands on, over 1500 types to be exact and we narrowed those down to 52 of the best through group blind listening. We developed our own scoring system for 25 criteria and music we had recorded to exhibit said criteria. Those results will be published at some point after a group of fifty people do the final listen.

I personally have a large collection of Melz 1578 types with some unique variations through the years, one of my favorite tubes.

You are correct that those and Fotons do not play well with the DV. Personally I need to modify one before I could listen much no matter what.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Slade01 said:


> If you went through the thread - did you catch L0rdGwyn's run at fully modding the DV?  Partially the consensus is that with all the parts and effort involved, the pricing already puts you in a position that you should have afforded a tube amp in a higher tier than the DV.


Yes, I caught that and noted his critique of the Fitz Mod. I initially thought of using my left over Crack wires and following his guide -- but then read the follow up comments including a return of the Fitz Mod and suggestions of power cable/interference issues. In my experience cheap transformers are simply cheap and noisy. Both Bottlehead and Decware (not to mention all high end vendors) make a big deal about high grade and custom spec transformers.  

In my getting a DV to compare within the price class, I'm seeing its value as an economical 6SN7 amp and preamp. To my ears it has a wider stage and carries over more tube character than the Lyr 3.  

Those who mod the DV are in it for the challenge?


----------



## g3n3r1c

Paladin79 said:


> Very thoughtful and well said. There is no such thing as an off the shelf Incubus


Thank you, and thank you for your many friendly and helpful posts. You are among the most capable and generous people I've seen in this hobby. 

Off the shelf Incubus...that was my hopeful suggestion/hint! To my ears the Crack's 12AU7 is a tad brighter and more technical than a 6SN7, but I prefer the 6SN7 for many headphones. There may well be room in the marketplace for a nicer-than-DV, non-hybrid 6SN7 amp competitor.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 20, 2021)

g3n3r1c said:


> Thank you, and thank you for your many friendly and helpful posts. You are among the most capable and generous people I've seen in this hobby.
> 
> Off the shelf Incubus...that was my hopeful suggestion/hint! To my ears the Crack's 12AU7 is a tad brighter and more technical than a 6SN7, but I prefer the 6SN7 for many headphones. There may well be room in the marketplace for a nicer-than-DV, non-hybrid 6SN7 amp competitor.


I added a few more comments above. What part of Virginia are you in? You need not narrow it down by city. I did some serious mods on a BH Crack but liked the 6SN7 with adapter a bit better than 12AU7's, but it has to be the correct 6sn7. This is a BH crack I modded. 2.5 lbs of copper plate that I patinated. My personal Incubus is in my avatar but the last one I build will be a culmination of what I have learned in building over 50 of them.

At the top is one of my latest acquisitions, a matched pair of 1956 Melz 1578's, I rank them up there with others in my collection.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Paladin79 said:


> What part of Virginia are you in?


The Northern blob near DC. There's no true 'city' here per se. "Northern Virginia: We are to DC as New Jersey is to NYC." 

Regarding the BHC, I'm seriously considering leaving the Speedball off. It's a retro amp with narrow use-cases, and if I want technical performance I'll pick another amp. Using it puts me in a certain mood and moves me back in time. 

I'd love to hear the Incubus some time.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 20, 2021)

g3n3r1c said:


> The Northern blob near DC. There's no true 'city' here per se. "Northern Virginia: We are to DC as New Jersey is to NYC."
> 
> Regarding the BHC, I'm seriously considering leaving the Speedball off. It's a retro amp with narrow use-cases, and if I want technical performance I'll pick another amp. Using it puts me in a certain mood and moves me back in time.
> 
> I'd love to hear the Incubus some time.


I might include you on the list of those I am sending the loaner to, I will be close to Wolf Trap in Fairfax County over Xmas visiting my son and his family. My final Incubus will most likely end up with him. Right now I am buying tiger maple just to find the one perfect board I want to use along with maybe purple heart or butternut.

 I cannot tell a lot of difference in 6sn7's in the Lyr 3 but my amp was made to open up the sound of the 6sn7 and most who own one understand that. Historically I use Tung Sol 5998's with it myself but Svetlana's do a decent job and they are more reasonable in price.

 This is a tiger maple and butternut (white walnut) case I built for a speaker amp.  Above is birdseye maple and purple heart.


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> Yes, I caught that and noted his critique of the Fitz Mod. I initially thought of using my left over Crack wires and following his guide -- but then read the follow up comments including a return of the Fitz Mod and suggestions of power cable/interference issues. In my experience cheap transformers are simply cheap and noisy. Both Bottlehead and Decware (not to mention all high end vendors) make a big deal about high grade and custom spec transformers.
> 
> Those who mod the DV are in it for the challenge?



True.  The transformers are a big deal.  Better Caps, better design -- it all sums up to a better experience...higher prices.

I think for the most part, many try the DV...its an entry level price point,  to see what tubes are about on a full tube experience (not the hybrids and such).  Once familiarity ensues, and if you have DIY ability, then you start thinking about ways to improve what you have for little money and investment.  I mean if you have the ability to eliminate the hum by soldering two small pieces of wire, then you have a very wide gain benefit with nominal time and effort invested.  

I can't speak for L0rdGwyn, but im fairly certain he (as an established amp builder) did take it on as a challenge.  But mostly, it seems to be people who try out the DV as their first tube amp, have / or developing the DIY skills, and just look for ways to improve what they have.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> True.  The transformers are a big deal.  Better Caps, better design -- it all sums up to a better experience...higher prices.
> 
> I think for the most part, many try the DV...its an entry level price point,  to see what tubes are about on a full tube experience (not the hybrids and such).  Once familiarity ensues, and if you have DIY ability, then you start thinking about ways to improve what you have for little money and investment.  I mean if you have the ability to eliminate the hum by soldering two small pieces of wire, then you have a very wide gain benefit with nominal time and effort invested.
> 
> I can't speak for L0rdGwyn, but im fairly certain he (as an established amp builder) did take it on as a challenge.  But mostly, it seems to be people who try out the DV as their first tube amp, have / or developing the DIY skills, and just look for ways to improve what they have.


I bought mine just to get the dimensions so I could make @bcowen an extension for his amp so he could fit large capacitors within. I have not paid a lot of attention to what others have done with the DV and I will do my own mods one day, I like to think for myself.  If I incorporate a couple things I did with the Incubus, it will not be for public consumption anyway.


----------



## g3n3r1c (Nov 20, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I might include you on the list of those I am sending to loaner to, I will be close to Wolf Trap in Fairfax County over Xmas visiting my son and his family.


I would be honored. I'll send you a PM and see if it works out.



Paladin79 said:


> I cannot tell a lot of difference in 6sn7's in the Lyr 3


I performed back-to-back comparisons there. Many tubes were similar, but some stood out for good or bad. The solid state stage sets the Lyr 3's maximum potential and puts a tone/stage width blanket over all tubes.


Paladin79 said:


> what others have done with the DV and I will do my own mods one day


You may _also_ conclude "toss everything out and replace them with better parts."


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> He’s on the audiophile drugz.





g3n3r1c said:


> Yes, I caught that and noted his critique of the Fitz Mod. I initially thought of using my left over Crack wires and following his guide -- but then read the follow up comments including a return of the Fitz Mod and suggestions of power cable/interference issues. In my experience cheap transformers are simply cheap and noisy. Both Bottlehead and Decware (not to mention all high end vendors) make a big deal about high grade and custom spec transformers.
> 
> In my getting a DV to compare within the price class, I'm seeing its value as an economical 6SN7 amp and preamp. To my ears it has a wider stage and carries over more tube character than the Lyr 3.
> 
> Those who mod the DV are in it for the challenge?


It's not much of a challenge after the first zap or two..lol, most who have the Darkvoice are first time tube amp owners wanting to hear for themselves what vacuum tubes bring to the audio experience. Then they get wind of "tube rolling". It's pretty much over after that. The rabbit hole hole of acquiring the most exotic sounding tubes they can afford or have space for, collecting for just the history of some, and the need to have every single tube ever made like our friend @bcowen .  Then after emptying the bank account, we get wind of "simple" mods that push the Darkvoice to another level. All that doesn't happen over night. And the Darkvoice Mod community is a large one, it's mostly for fun, see what we can squeeze out of this cheap Chinese amp. I learned how to sodder, I learned how to fix loose bases on vacuum tubes, how to resodder the pins,  I learned a whole lot, I mean a whole lot (more than I need to know) about all the different manufactures and history of say, Tung Sol, Sylvania, Fotons, GE (gasp), Mullard, Bendix, etc. all while owning this small cheap ass bitch of an amp. So yeah, hard to just dump it when it has that deep of attachment, it's more than just an amp to me. It's a Darkvoice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 20, 2021)

g3n3r1c said:


> I would be honored. I'll send you a PM and see if it works out.
> 
> 
> I performed back-to-back comparisons there. Many tubes were similar, but some stood out for good or bad. The solid state stage sets the Lyr 3's maximum potential and puts a tone/stage blanket over all tubes.
> ...


I try to only build things that are pleasing to the eye as well as the ear. A black metal cabinet is not for me. I do own or have owned quite a bit of Schiit tube gear as well as their multibit DACS, I also helped Jason with a tube challenge using 6sn7's.

I know my last build will not be ready by Xmas but I hope to build it in January or February. Normal cabinet work can take me three weekends, on this one I am starting off with 1/8 inch copper plate so working with that can take a long time. The electronics I can do in my sleep having had a bit of experience.

This amp will head to Texas, then California, then Washington state before it heads back east.


----------



## g3n3r1c (Nov 20, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> True.  The transformers are a big deal.  Better Caps, better design -- it all sums up to a better experience...higher prices.
> 
> I think for the most part, many try the DV...its an entry level price point,  to see what tubes are about on a full tube experience (not the hybrids and such).  Once familiarity ensues, and if you have DIY ability, then you start thinking about ways to improve what you have for little money and investment.  I mean if you have the ability to eliminate the hum by soldering two small pieces of wire, then you have a very wide gain benefit with nominal time and effort invested.
> 
> I can't speak for L0rdGwyn, but im fairly certain he (as an established amp builder) did take it on as a challenge.  But mostly, it seems to be people who try out the DV as their first tube amp, have / or developing the DIY skills, and just look for ways to improve what they have.


All you say makes sense. I like that an expert gave it a once-over to see what can be done and put out guidance.



JKDJedi said:


> And the Darkvoice Mod community is a large one, it's mostly for fun, see what we can squeeze out of this cheap Chinese amp.


I'm starting to think that's what happening with these hardcore, big-budget experts. Find a challenge, complete a challenge. Experts working on a $250 amp! I spent a good amount of time refreshing my soldering skills before building the Crack, and might instead have jumped straight into DV mods.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I try to only build things that are pleasing to the eye as well as the ear. A black metal cabinet is not for me. I do own or have owned quite a bit of Schiit tube gear as well as their multibit DACS, I also helped Jason with a tube challenge using 6sn7's.
> 
> I know my last build will not be ready by Xmas but I hope to build it in January or February. Normal cabinet work can take me three weekends, on this one I am starting off with 1/8 inch copper plate so working with that can take a long time. The electronics I can do in my sleep having had a bit of experience.





g3n3r1c said:


> All you say makes sense. I like that an expert gave it a once-over to see what can be done and put guidance.
> 
> 
> I'm starting to think that's what happening with these hardcore, big-budget experts. Find a challenge, complete a challenge. Experts working on a $250 amp! I spent a good amount of time refreshing my soldering skills before building the Crack, and might instead have jumped straight into DV mods.


I did get lucky grabbing one of the "few" *Incubus Elegans*... very nice amp, makes my HD6XX sound like Hifiman cans.. another level of sound. Good luck with that.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I did get lucky grabbing one of the "few" *Incubus Elegans*... very nice amp, makes my HD6XX sound like Hifiman cans.. another level of sound. Good luck with that.


I kept feeling that the high end had a ceiling with my amps till I got Focal Utopias, Verite opens also do well.


----------



## therremans

Skimmed the above posts and just wanted to add my experience. I purchased the DV amp March or April of 2020. My internship was canceled and I had free time on my hands. The country was mostly on lockdown then and we were especially being in the city. It gave me something to work on and I thoroughly enjoyed the process. Thanks to a mistake from Mouser, I got my output caps for nearly free. I also did the fitz mod so early on, that I never have experienced tube hum on the amp. Today, it sounds great and I have other resistors and caps to install. I don’t have botique or other handmade amps to compare it with, one day I will hopefully be able to do that. I have done so many part swaps to the DV, it feels like my version of a BHC. I now look forward to my next amp and amp build, whenever that is. I’ve now collected numerous tubes and tube types and have also enjoyed hearing their differences in this modded entry level amp. It’s not always greener when spending large amounts of money to chase something boutique and I don’t try to sound pretentious about audio. Other circuit designs are going to be mostly better.. but the ride was fun to where I am today.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I'm craving a Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich... not sure why. 😐 They don't make them here in the West like they do in the East.


Shorty's is my preferred when am in Manhattan, but it often get messy while eating it 🤣🤣
https://www.shortysnyc.com/


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I kept feeling that the high end had a ceiling with my amps till I got Focal Utopias, Verite opens also do well.


Any screwdriver approached the DV yet ? 😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> I'm a "long time lurker but rare Head-fi poster." After recently acquiring a DV 336SE, I skimmed this _entire thread_ of 792 pages. I came here to diagnose severe hum with some of my otherwise fine 6SN7 tubes and indeed learned a lot. I'm still pondering the DV's quality and best uses as a consumer product. See questions below.
> 
> Background: I own a Lyr 3 and built a Bottlehead Crack. In due course I acquired a DV to conduct back-to-back testing in this price bracket. There's a lot to be said about tube amps with a single driver, as it's much easier to explore than with pairs of tubes. All three of these amps balance cost, complexity, value, and functionality (noting that the Crack actually costs much more per the tools, materials, and skills required, plus the failed construction risk for non-experts.) In owning the other two amps I already had an inventory of 6SN7 and 6080/6AS7 tubes. I'll certainly keep my Crack (as I built it myself), but one or both of the other amps may go away.
> 
> ...


Well a very good analysis of the DV but yet a cheap place to start your 6SN7 and 6AS7G collections. Yet you can start at much better places from the other products you just listed. Although I may suggest another good contender "Hartung" but currently the company is reshaping its product's line.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Any screwdriver approached the DV yet ? 😎


Oh heck no, too many other things going on for me right now and I am struggling to make one more Incubus.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Any screwdriver hammer approached the DV yet ? 😎


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


LOL.  I was about to say @Paladin79 may approach it with a hammer.  Busy schedules with holidays and such coming up.  No one would convict him.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  I was about to say @Paladin79 may approach it with a hammer.  Busy schedules with holidays and such coming up.  No one would convict him.


A case of sonic self-defense…🙉…


----------



## JKDJedi

Morning Ladies ...


----------



## sam6550a

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  I was about to say @Paladin79 may approach it with a hammer.  Busy schedules with holidays and such coming up.  No one would convict him.


Knowing @Paladin79, he would most probably jack up the DV nameplate and slide a new amplifier of his own design under it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Thought he's keeping the box at least while the inner parts goes to Finnegan toy's chest 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Nov 23, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  I was about to say @Paladin79 may approach it with a hammer.  Busy schedules with holidays and such coming up.  No one would convict him.


Sure it's the holiday season and I've heard that @Paladin79 is working on a GE tubes nutcracker as well   😆


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> Thought he's keeping the box at least while the inner parts goes to Finnegan toy's chest 🤣🤣


@Paladin79 would not abuse Finnegan with those parts.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Sure it's the holiday season and I've hard that @Paladin79 is working on a GE tubecracker as well   😆


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Sure it's the holiday season and I've hard that @Paladin79 is working on a GE tubes nutcracker as well   😆


GE tubes top Santa’s gifts for ‘naughty’ list…


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Knowing @Paladin79, he would most probably jack up the DV nameplate and slide a new amplifier of his own design under it.


But it couldn’t be a DV…it would work…🤷🏻


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Knowing @Paladin79, he would most probably jack up the DV nameplate and slide a new amplifier of his own design under it.


You are not far from the actual truth lol. Previously I was trying to decide how far to go and to still be able to call it a modified DV.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> GE tubes top Santa’s gifts for his hit list…


FTFY (copyright, um, me).


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7GT-V...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  I was about to say @Paladin79 may approach it with a hammer.  Busy schedules with holidays and such coming up.  No one would convict him.


Justifiable humicide….😖👎👎…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Justifiable humicide….😖👎👎…


Now _that_ was funny.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> FTFY (copyright, um, me).


Well I would add an "S" to the modified Santa's "hit" list you mentioned in this case
FTFY (Copyright me) 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You are not far from the actual truth lol. Previously I was trying to decide how far to go and to still be able to call it a modified DV.


Probably keeping the name plate, looks nice and shiny 😆


----------



## g3n3r1c (Nov 23, 2021)

therremans said:


> It’s not always greener when spending large amounts of money to chase something boutique and I don’t try to sound pretentious about audio. Other circuit designs are going to be mostly better.. but the ride was fun to where I am today.


I lean toward functionality and enjoyment, and resist spending for the sake of spending. For far too long I used an HD 600 on PC output or junky amps, and I suffered needlessly. I've upgraded largely in a pursuit of lower fatigue long listening sessions, as my early setups were screechy. Even if one can hear the differences following an upgrade the body has a wonderful ability to habituate and enjoy current sounds. BUT, it must not be fatiguing. If I'd started with a DV I'd likely avoided my screech period because of its gentle treble. Run your own race.


----------



## g3n3r1c

HTSkywalker said:


> Yet you can start at much better places from the other products you just listed. Although I may suggest another good contender "Hartung"


I'm wondering what the best pre-built 6SN7 foundation might be, better than the DV but not into the next price tier? Is Eufonika a step up? There are more new brands these days than I can keep up with.


----------



## SilverCans

Hi this thread is crazy long and I want to change my 336i tubes but need suggestions (links would be appreciated it, I'm new to tube amps)

Headphones are DT 990 pro


Stock tube issues:
Bright, sibilant, etched, no warmth to the mids, little soundstage

What I want:
Smooth and detailed, stronger and deeper bass, warmer / liquid mids, deep soundstage; no sibilance  

I'm willing to change both tubes to achieve what I want. It sounds horrible as is


----------



## JKDJedi

SilverCans said:


> Hi this thread is crazy long and I want to change my 336i tubes but need suggestions (links would be appreciated it, I'm new to tube amps)
> 
> Headphones are DT 990 pro
> 
> ...


PM sent


----------



## JKDJedi

g3n3r1c said:


> I lean toward functionality and enjoyment, and resist spending for the sake of spending. For far too long I used an HD 600 on PC output or junky amps, and I suffered needlessly. I've upgraded largely in a pursuit of lower fatigue long listening sessions, as my early setups were screechy. Even if one can hear the differences following an upgrade the body has a wonderful ability to habituate and enjoy current sounds. BUT, it must not be fatiguing. If I'd started with a DV I'd likely avoided my screech period because of its gentle treble. Run your own race.


you liking the Darkvoice? I lost you after that PC output thing. ..😐


----------



## g3n3r1c

JKDJedi said:


> you liking the Darkvoice? I lost you after that PC output thing. ..😐


I like it for what it is, yes. I meant to say that the DV is way superior to what I started out with and suffered through. It's better than a lot of starter setups.


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> I'm wondering what the best pre-built 6SN7 foundation might be, better than the DV but not into the next price tier? Is Eufonika a step up? There are more new brands these days than I can keep up with.



So in the same price range as the DV - they say the xDuoo TA-26 is a step up/refined version of the Darkvoice, a would be successor.   Buying a used Bottlehead Crack is also a good alternative and can be had to similar or just slightly higher prices depending on if its stock or modded.

Eufonika H5 is definitely a step up but it also starts sliding slightly upwards in price.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> PM sent



Tell him he needs a Bendix 6080 Slotted Graphite Tube.  and oh wait...you just happen to have said tube....and oh look....it could be had for a good price.....  Lol.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 27, 2021)

*🎼🎶🎵🎼🎶🎵:*

Who can take a tube (who can take a tube),
Price it really high (price it really high),
Post it on EBay (post it on EBay),
Wring your wallet dry (wring your wallet dry)?

The Bangy man can (the Bangy man can),
The Bangy man can ‘cause the money is his love.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Tell him he needs a Bendix 6080 Slotted Graphite Tube.  and oh wait...you just happen to have said tube....and oh look....it could be had for a good price.....  Lol.





Slade01 said:


> Tell him he needs a Bendix 6080 Slotted Graphite Tube





jonathan c said:


> *🎼🎶🎵🎼🎶🎵:*
> 
> Who can take a tube (who can take a tube),
> Price it really high (price it really high),
> ...


Lm FA 0 😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Tell him he needs a Bendix 6080 Slotted Graphite Tube.  and oh wait...you just happen to have said tube....and oh look....it could be had for a good price.....  Lol.


*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*
(what the PM _*should*_ have said)


What the PM really said:

"These GE's are the absolute best. Ever.  Greatest tubes ever made. Seriously.  I sooooooo hate to part with it, but for a fellow HeadFi'er I'll sacrifice and sell you this GE 6080 that tests 27/59 (with 60 being minimum good) for only $350.  Plus shipping, of course"


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*
> (what the PM _*should*_ have said)
> 
> 
> ...


I will not deny or confirm such PM happened... 🙃


----------



## Paladin79

g3n3r1c said:


> I like it for what it is, yes. I meant to say that the DV is way superior to what I started out with and suffered through. It's better than a lot of starter setups.


What other starter amps? There are some pretty crappy amps coming out of China for less money, maybe it beats those?😜 I have repaired several and few start off with the hum of the dark voice, I can hear it and I can measure it lol. I guess you can ignore that and say the treble sounds good? How about the sound improving when you disconnect the pre-amp out?


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> I will not deny or confirm such PM happened... 🙃


Head-Fi Impossible:  “The administrator will disavow any knowledge of your action. This PM will self-destruct in fifteen seconds…”


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> What other starter amps? There are some pretty crappy amps coming out of China for less money, maybe it beats those?😜 I have repaired several and few start off with the hum of the dark voice, I can hear it and I can measure it lol. I guess you can ignore that and say the treble sounds good? How about the sound improving when you disconnect the pre-amp out?


How about the sound improving when you turn it all off?…


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> How about the sound improving when you turn it all off?…


lol.. well, do a little mod here, and a little mod there.  Smiles everyone...and welcome, to Fantasy Island.


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> lol.. well, do a little mod here, and a little mod there.  Smiles everyone...and welcome, to Fantasy Island.


The visual equivalent of the sound of desktop ‘chi-fi’    🙉     🙈     !!!


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> What other starter amps? There are some pretty crappy amps coming out of China for less money, maybe it beats those?😜 I have repaired several and few start off with the hum of the dark voice, I can hear it and I can measure it lol. I guess you can ignore that and say the treble sounds good? How about the sound improving when you disconnect the pre-amp out?



Yeah - I can't speak for @g3n3r1c 's experience but I just think of the other Chinese amps.  They range from the Nobsounds to the Little Dot, Sabaj, or Loxjie series as far as I can remember.  The DV hum is the worst - especially for non DIYers like myself.   I was able to burn-in tubes enough and make most of the tubes I acquired usable, but the process and time involved with that wears on one over time - primarily the reason why I finally moved on from it.  But I wouldn't change anything, it was an inexpensive way to experience that full tube OTL sound.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 23, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Yeah - I can't speak for @g3n3r1c 's experience but I just think of the other Chinese amps.  They range from the Nobsounds to the Little Dot, Sabaj, or Loxjie series as far as I can remember.  The DV hum is the worst - especially for non DIYers like myself.   I was able to burn-in tubes enough and make most of the tubes I acquired usable, but the process and time involved with that wears on one over time - primarily the reason why I finally moved on from it.  But I wouldn't change anything, it was an inexpensive way to experience that full tube OTL sound.


There is a reason so many try to modify the DV.😉
Plug in some respected Russian tubes and the SQ is even worse.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> There is a reason so many try to modify the DV.😉
> Plug in some respected Russian tubes and the SQ is even worse.


🔑 is ‘try’. Is conquering the DV akin to conquering Afghanistan over the ages?…


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> 🔑 is ‘try’. Is conquering the DV akin to conquering Afghanistan over the ages?…


Yet here you/we are...


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> Yet here you/we are...


I only read the DV forum 😆. I do not own, lease, have any contingent liabilities related to a DV….whew!


----------



## AudioCats

come on, the 336se is not that bad.
 though I do wish they do things a little differently, so I don't do unnecessary component replacements. 
(not that the amp in stock configuration doesn't work, just that I can't live with some of the issues)

** the volume control is a linear pot ==> the usable adjustment range is only about 30 degrees
** capacitor clamps down too far, deforms the aluminum housings, (some pretty badly)
** filament supply could have been DC to begin with, it will only cost them $5, they can probably charge $50 extra for this "silent no hum" edition.

and I think the transformer can be a bit larger. There is lots of space in the transformer box, if they can put in a 100w transformer and charge $50 more it will still be worth it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> I'm wondering what the best pre-built 6SN7 foundation might be, better than the DV but not into the next price tier? Is Eufonika a step up? There are more new brands these days than I can keep up with.


Well this largely depends on the budget bracket you are willing to spend, respectful Pre-built 6SN7 (out of the box without adapter) would include the Woo Audio Woo Audio WA-22 and the Feliks Euforia and you can also hope for an Incubus which may end up being your end game for the 6SN7 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I only read the DV forum 😆. I do not own, lease, have any contingent liabilities related to a DV….whew!


Ohhh I it's mandatory to own a DV to be able to post in this forum or even to bash the DV 😆, will report you to the Head-Fi admins Mr. Woo


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> *🎼🎶🎵🎼🎶🎵:*
> 
> Who can take a tube (who can take a tube),
> Price it really high (price it really high),
> ...


What are you drinking exactly ? 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> What other starter amps? There are some pretty crappy amps coming out of China for less money, maybe it beats those?😜 I have repaired several and few start off with the hum of the dark voice, I can hear it and I can measure it lol. I guess you can ignore that and say the treble sounds good? How about the sound improving when you disconnect the pre-amp out?


Now really ? I should try disconnecting the Pre-amp and check


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Yeah - I can't speak for @g3n3r1c 's experience but I just think of the other Chinese amps.  They range from the Nobsounds to the Little Dot, Sabaj, or Loxjie series as far as I can remember.  The DV hum is the worst - especially for non DIYers like myself.   I was able to burn-in tubes enough and make most of the tubes I acquired usable, but the process and time involved with that wears on one over time - primarily the reason why I finally moved on from it.  But I wouldn't change anything, it was an inexpensive way to experience that full tube OTL sound.


Agree, a good place to start your 6SN7 and 6AS7G journey and move on without spending additional money in modifying it.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Yet here you/we are...


Everyone has to be somewhere.   

I really like specific Melz 6sn7 equivalents and that is pretty much the only tube type I listen to, I have a collection that spans four decades of their production so I have plenty of those to roll. (I was able to hear in excess of 1500 types of equivalents and those are still my choice.) I cannot use those with the DV.
 I have also spent a lot of time with various OTL amps and finally designed and built my own to get the exact sound I wanted and that sound works best for me with Focal Utopias, Melz tubes and various 5998's . Everything is relative and if the DV is your first experience with OTL's it is certainly an inexpensive way to get started. I started with tube audio in the mid sixties while in my early teens so my journey is different. I bought one just to get the dimensions to help with amp modification.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Now really ? I should try disconnecting the Pre-amp and check


I have been told that, I have never tried it myself. Others here might be able to give opinions. It is my opinion that those sold outside the US that work on 220 v have less issues since you do not seem to get the hum we do in the states.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have been told that, I have never tried it myself. Others here might be able to give opinions. It is my opinion that those sold outside the US that work on 220 v have less issues since you do not seem to get the hum we do in the states.


Somehow true as the original design was around the 220V and then tweaked to the 110V. Not saying the 220V version is a silent performer though 😆 but definitely a notch better the 110V one.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> What are you drinking exactly ? 🤣🤣🤣


This little ditty just came right to mind…😆🤪


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have been told that, I have never tried it myself. Others here might be able to give opinions. It is my opinion that those sold outside the US that work on 220 v have less issues since you do not seem to get the hum we do in the states.


Those are the karaoke versions - the owners have to hum along…😆


----------



## Slade01

AudioCats said:


> come on, the 336se is not that bad.
> though I do wish they do things a little differently, so I don't do unnecessary component replacements.
> (not that the amp in stock configuration doesn't work, just that I can't live with some of the issues)
> 
> ...



@AudioCats no it's not that bad at all.   Great price point - it feels solid-ly built (like a tank), and sounds great when on point (tubes with no hum).   I mean I started out with the HD6XX/650 and the DV was the only amp in this price point I was able to try that was "stars aligned super magical" sound with those headphones versus any hybrid or SS amp.   No regrets at all.  The DV made me learn a ton more about tubes and amplifier tech and it has been a fascinating ride.  

I wish they did do the things as mentioned.   I wonder if when they were designing or updating the 336, it's centered to run with their baseline operating specs: 220 and stock Chinese tubes.   Anything that deviates from that - well you know anything can happen.   



Paladin79 said:


> There is a reason so many try to modify the DV.😉
> Plug in some respected Russian tubes and the SQ is even worse.



I think that maybe it is a pretty good litmus test of an amp - if it can take Russian tubes free and clear - I wonder if that is a good sign of the amp build/implementation.   It was irritating for me on the DV to put some Melz/Fotons/Fonon and hear it could sound really really great but held back by the amp itself due to noise or hum.  

So to that effect - @Paladin79 when you were designing the Incubus, I know you had it in mind to bring out the best out of the 6SN7 tube - did you have specific tubes in mind when you were building/tuning the amp as a baseline?


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> This little ditty just came right to mind…😆🤪


Alcohol and some Charlie and the Chocolate Factory will do that to you.


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Now really ? I should try disconnecting the Pre-amp and check



Just make sure you disconnect it in such a way that you can reconnect it back if you decide it changes the sound in a way you don't like.    That mod allegedly aligns the specs more closely to the Crack insofar that it would lift the veil to some degree.    (Link) if you want the specifics. 

I think mostly it is positive, and a few here have said it does increase clarity.   (I did not get this result, and thought it made my DV sound more uncontrolled/bassy - but I always seem to be the exception/have bad luck or just backwards a** amp).


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> @AudioCats no it's not that bad at all.   Great price point - it feels solid-ly built (like a tank), and sounds great when on point (tubes with no hum).   I mean I started out with the HD6XX/650 and the DV was the only amp in this price point I was able to try that was "stars aligned super magical" sound with those headphones versus any hybrid or SS amp.   No regrets at all.  The DV made me learn a ton more about tubes and amplifier tech and it has been a fascinating ride.
> 
> I wish they did do the things as mentioned.   I wonder if when they were designing or updating the 336, it's centered to run with their baseline operating specs: 220 and stock Chinese tubes.   Anything that deviates from that - well you know anything can happen.
> 
> ...


Power tubes remained the same, I used a matched quad of Tung Sol 5998's. I was having trouble finding four of anything I really liked better than those. It had to work well with Melz 1578's from the mid fifties to early sixties for me to be happy with it. Those tubes exhibit an excellent range across the whole audio spectrum IMHO.


----------



## JKDJedi

AudioCats said:


> come on, the 336se is not that bad.
> though I do wish they do things a little differently, so I don't do unnecessary component replacements.
> (not that the amp in stock configuration doesn't work, just that I can't live with some of the issues)
> 
> ...


I found the heater mod to have the most impact, members here  also suggested replacing resistors and end caps and helped me with a list of what to get from mouser...  and before all that....yeah DV was pretty bad... lol. If you kept the volume low you'd be happy with it. with the mods, I'm more than happy. I can slam Fotons in there too with no problems now, where as before I couldn't, same with the new Tung Sol, both hummed like a...a...a.humming bird? You know I've really forgotten how all that was.


----------



## SilverCans

SilverCans said:


> Hi this thread is crazy long and I want to change my 336i tubes but need suggestions (links would be appreciated it, I'm new to tube amps)
> 
> Headphones are DT 990 pro
> 
> ...


Hi Guys, any suggestions? I got a PM, with someone offering to sell me tubes, with no mention of what the tubes were.
However, I'm looking for recommendations and folks to weigh in on what might achieve what I'm after (on the board, not solicitations please)

Really appreciate your feedback. I haven't a clue what is a good combo. Thank you


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 24, 2021)

SilverCans said:


> Hi Guys, any suggestions? I got a PM, with someone offering to sell me tubes, with no mention of what the tubes were.
> However, I'm looking for recommendations and folks to weigh in on what might achieve what I'm after (on the board, not solicitations please)
> 
> Really appreciate your feedback. I haven't a clue what is a good combo. Thank you



Not sure how much you want to spend:

Driver Tubes:   Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231, RCA Gray Glass VT-231, National Union Black Glass 6SN7
Power Tubes:  Tung Sol 6080

There are more pricey tubes as well.  But these are baseline recommendations - a good place to start.  Of course, the rest of your chain will have bearing on what combinations will actually work, but just these tubes alone on their own merit will give steps in the right direction.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 24, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> How much are you looking to spend...what is your budget?


He PMd me asking the same question, was it bad I offered to sell him some of my tubes? o.O


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> He PMd me asking the same question, was it bad I offered to sell him some if my tubes? o.O



He'd be lucky to get some of your tubes.  Your collection is impressive....


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Not sure how much you want to spend:
> 
> Driver Tubes:   Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231, RCA Gray Glass VT-231, National Union Black Glass 6SN7
> Power Tubes:  Tung Sol 6080
> ...


I am better off not talking tubes but I like those suggestions. Finnegan has his own preferences.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am better off not talking tubes but I like those suggestions. Finnegan has his own preferences.


Excellent...I like him already. ☺️


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I am better off not talking tubes but I like those suggestions. Finnegan has his own preferences.



Do you feed Finnegan Caviar and Champange also?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Do you feed Finnegan Caviar and Champange also?


He is not big on champagne 😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am better off not talking tubes but I like those suggestions. Finnegan has his own preferences.


Finnegan is finicky: paw sanitiser before ‘rolling’ 😖 tubes…


----------



## Slade01

@SilverCans There are also Sylvania "Bad Boys" 6SN7GT that allegedly is also known for bass.   I've never had these, so someone else may be able to comment on them more intelligibly especially what makes them the real deal (or search on other threads - I know this is thoroughly discussed).  But one more thing to consider - some people swear by the Sylvania house sound.


----------



## sam6550a (Nov 24, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Do you feed Finnegan Caviar and Champange also?


Only on holidays---Tom does not want to spoil him.


----------



## AudioCats

I am looking into current production tubes, PCX has:

electroHarmonix 6sn7 $21
electroHarmonix 6sn7 gold pin $43
shuGuang "treasure" CV-181-Z (6sn7) $110
sovtek 6sngt $23
Tung-sol (russian?) 6sn7gtb $27

which one is the most detailed?


----------



## bcowen

AudioCats said:


> I am looking into current production tubes, PCX has:
> 
> electroHarmonix 6sn7 $21
> electroHarmonix 6sn7 gold pin $43
> ...


If you're asking for opinions.....

The Electro Harmonix and Sovtek (pretty much the same thing) will be the most detailed....and are also pretty threadbare in the mids and can be uncomfortably aggressive in the treble depending on what 'phones you're using. The new production Tung Sol isn't bad, but that doesn't mean it's good, only that it's not bad.    For my personal tastes, the Shuguang would be my first pick of what you listed, but it will be warmer sounding than the rest and will _not_ be the most detailed.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Do you feed Finnegan Caviar and Champange also?





bcowen said:


> If you're asking for opinions.....
> 
> The Electro Harmonix and Sovtek (pretty much the same thing) will be the most detailed....and are also pretty threadbare in the mids and can be uncomfortably aggressive in the treble depending on what 'phones you're using. The new production Tung Sol isn't bad, but that doesn't mean it's good, only that it's not bad.    For my personal tastes, the Shuguang would be my first pick of what you listed, but it will be warmer sounding than the rest and will _not_ be the most detailed.


Whats interesting about the Electro Harmonix and the new Tung Sol..is they're carbon copy the same build minus the color of the base.


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2021)

AudioCats said:


> I am looking into current production tubes, PCX has:
> 
> electroHarmonix 6sn7 $21
> electroHarmonix 6sn7 gold pin $43
> ...


Get these: 






Edit: I also just remembered that I have two, I would sell one if you want a discount. I bought them as a two pack but only really need one.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 24, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Whats interesting about the Electro Harmonix and the new Tung Sol..is they're carbon copy the same build minus the color of the base.


Might even be made in the same Russian factory, but probably at different times.  The new Tung Sol didn't chew on my ears like the Electro Harmonix did for whatever reason.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Might even be made in the same Russian factory, but probably at different times.  The new Tung Sol didn't chew on my ears like the Electro Harmonix did for whatever reason.


Was it this Harmonix?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Was it this Harmonix?


I don't remember them having a flat top like that.  Probably an earlier version as they sound more like the Sovtek than the Tung Sol.  They're in a box in the basement with some GE's and Philips ECG's....you know, for easy disposal the next time I move.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I don't remember them having a flat top like that.  Probably an earlier version as they sound more like the Sovtek than the Tung Sol.  They're in a box in the basement with some GE's and Philips ECG's....you know, for easy disposal the next time I move.


Almost forgot about them Philips.... 😂


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @SilverCans There are also Sylvania "Bad Boys" 6SN7GT that allegedly is also known for bass.   I've never had these, so someone else may be able to comment on them more intelligibly especially what makes them the real deal (or search on other threads - I know this is thoroughly discussed).  But one more thing to consider - some people swear by the Sylvania house sound.


I’ve heard the Sylvania vt-231 sounds similar. I own a pair of them, they sound pretty good.. but an overrated tube (with my setup). I do think it’s hyped like many tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I’ve heard the Sylvania vt-231 sounds similar. I own a pair of them, they sound pretty good.. but an overrated tube (with my setup). I do think it’s hyped like many tubes.


The Bad Boys have more down low than the earlier VT-231


----------



## JKDJedi

Speaking of low end.... the Tung Sol/Chatham 6080..... Nice. @therremans recognize that adapter?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> *The Bad Boys have more down low* than the earlier VT-231


That's why they're called Bad Boys. of course.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ... and Philips ECG's....you know, for easy disposal the next time I move.


Are you talking about those abomination Philips with the blue text/print?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The Bad Boys have more down low than the earlier VT-231


VT-231 bad girls. That makes sense as I don’t recall the low end being notable. But more balanced sound with a clear high end.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That's why they're called Bad Boys. of course.


HAH!!!


----------



## bcowen (Nov 24, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Speaking of low end.... the Tung Sol/Chatham 6080..... Nice. @therremans recognize that adapter?


Agree....without spending a fortune.  That's the good steel plate version with the metal spring mica supports and silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.  The version below lacking the mica supports and silver edging is rather ordinary to my ears. Not bad at all, just not as good as the other.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> VT-231 bad girls. That makes sense as I don’t recall the low end being notable. But more balanced sound with a clear high end.


BadBoys have all that and a bag of chips..


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Are you talking about those abomination Philips with the blue text/print?


Yes.  I only have one 6SN7 (thankfully), but have several 5814's and 6922's that are just nasty, nasty tubes.


----------



## therremans (Nov 24, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Agree....without spending a fortune.  That's the good steel plate version with the metal spring mica supports and silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.  The version lacking the mica supports and silver edging is rather ordinary to my ears. Not bad at all, just not as good as the other.


I preferred the one below to the first Chatham WA I had, so I sold that one. This one never gets use but I kept it.


----------



## therremans




----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


That cuisine reigns Supreme...only have two of them though


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


Is he Bangybang….mesmerised by the possibilities….?


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I preferred the one below to the first Chatham WA I had, so I sold that one. This one never gets use but I kept it.


🥲


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yes.  I only have one 6SN7 (thankfully), but have several 5814's and 6922's that are just nasty, nasty tubes.


I tried the 6922 phillips blue ones.  Its really one of the very few times I really felt robbed and cheated.  I actually threw mine out.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> That cuisine reigns Supreme...only have two of them though


I waited awhile to find one of them. Luckily.. it was true NOS in factory box and all.. plus after I tested it, triodes are perfectly matched too.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I tried the 6922 phillips blue ones.  Its really one of the very few times I really felt robbed and cheated.  I actually threw mine out.


You were smart.  If I didn't have this hoarding collecting affliction, I'd have taken a hammer to mine in an act of vengeance.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 24, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes.  I only have one 6SN7 (thankfully), but have several 5814's and 6922's that are just nasty, nasty tubes.


Hmm…vacuum tubes that _really suck…_
Q:  Were the Philips ECGs standard issue for any gear (civilian or military)?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I tried the 6922 phillips blue ones.  Its really one of the very few times I really felt robbed and cheated.  I actually threw mine out.


LOL..nice.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 24, 2021)

therremans said:


> I waited awhile to find one of them. Luckily.. it was true NOS in factory box and all.. plus after I tested it, triodes are perfectly matched too.


When you get them that pristine, keep them, I let one go to a known Barbie collector here.. not letting the other one go, about as mint as yours. My pair when I got them came with a hand written note, that the pair were sitting in his desk for a long time, he didn't want to see them go unused, so he sold them so that they could "sing".  Have the Ugly Duckling copy (from Leeds) on sale at the moment, same everything but the prints all gone, as if someone smuggled it in the states up their colon..  (not pictured)


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> Hmm…vacuum tubes that _really suck…_
> Q:  Were the Philips ECGs standard issue for any gear (civilian or military)?


Most tubes manufactured were not intended for audiophile use in mind when they were made. The Bendix 6080 for example, was made for guided missiles. Computers, radar, automobiles, television... not for headphones. Then some hippies got bored and started experimenting with them...rest is history.


----------



## AudioCats

therremans said:


> Get these:
> 
> ....Edit: I also just remembered that I have two, I would sell one if you want a discount. I bought them as a two pack but only really need one.



interested. PM sent.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 24, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Then some hippies got bored and started experimenting with them...rest is history.


Hypothesis: (a) GE + LSD = 🎼🎵 ; (b) GE - LSD = 😖🤬


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Just make sure you disconnect it in such a way that you can reconnect it back if you decide it changes the sound in a way you don't like.    That mod allegedly aligns the specs more closely to the Crack insofar that it would lift the veil to some degree.    (Link) if you want the specifics.
> 
> I think mostly it is positive, and a few here have said it does increase clarity.   (I did not get this result, and thought it made my DV sound more uncontrolled/bassy - but I always seem to be the exception/have bad luck or just backwards a** amp).


Thanks, worth a try 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> I tried the 6922 phillips blue ones.  Its really one of the very few times I really felt robbed and cheated.  I actually threw mine out.


I have good experience with the Gold Lion 6922 mounted in a Cavalli CTH


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> I have good experience with the Gold Lion 6922 mounted in a Cavalli CTH


Genelex Gold Lions are great. Just stay clear if you ever see blue lettering that says Phillips EC 6922..  I think they stood for "Extra Crappy Grade".  

I liked the Amperex (Holland) and the Tesla (32) E88CC when I had the MCTH.  I kind of miss that amp at times.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Hmm…vacuum tubes that _really suck…_
> Q:  Were the Philips ECGs standard issue for any gear (civilian or military)?


A pair of 12AU7 ECG's were the stock tubes shipped with a Cary CD player I bought many years ago.  I called Dennis Had and asked him if he was just playing a joke on me, and sadly he wasn't.  So I cussed him out.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> A pair of 12AU7 ECG's were the stock tubes shipped with a Cary CD player I bought many years ago.  I called Dennis Had and asked him if he was just playing a joke on me, and sadly he wasn't.  So I cussed him out.


When you bought the Cary, you were had…


----------



## jonathan c

Happy Thanksgiving Day to All!

I am thankful for health, home, family. Plus, thankful for the GE tubes 🦃 that I do not own but that @bcowen does 😜…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Happy Thanksgiving Day to All!
> 
> I am thankful for health, home, family. Plus, thankful for the GE tubes 🦃 that I do not own but that @bcowen does 😜…


And Happy Thanksgiving to you!

Since the USPS isn't delivering mail today, that box of GE's I sent will probably show up on your doorstep tomorrow.  If any are broken, that's a bonus.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And Happy Thanksgiving to you!
> 
> Since the USPS isn't delivering mail today, that box of GE's I sent will probably show up on your doorstep tomorrow.  If any are broken, that's a bonus.


At least I can count on USPS workers not running off with the GEs…😆


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> At least I can count on USPS workers not running off with the GEs…😆


How would they know??


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> How would they know??


They would see bcowen’s send from address, think “hmm…holy grail”, open, run for the hills…


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> How would they know??


By opening the box, seeing what's in there, going "Ewwwwwww", resealing it and sending it on.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> They would see bcowen’s send from address, think “hmm…holy grail”, open, run for the hills…


LOL!  Weird minds think alike.


----------



## jonathan c

Today’s PSA:  On this Thanksgiving Day of A.D. 2021, there will be _no_ bcowenian pardon of the DarkVoice for the perennial crime of humming - in private or in public. “Next!”


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> By opening the box, seeing what's in there, going "Ewwwwwww", resealing it and sending it on.


I figured that you would do it to get even with package stealing porch pirates.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I figured that you would do it to get even with package stealing porch pirates.


LOL!  Porch pirates get a box of Philips ECG's.  They go beyond sucky to downright painful.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Porch pirates get a box of Philips ECG's.  They go beyond sucky to downright painful.


Its a win win.  They either get crappy sounding tubes or a box full of shards and broken glass that they cut themselves on.  Painful either way.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Genelex Gold Lions are great. Just stay clear if you ever see blue lettering that says Phillips EC 6922..  I think they stood for "Extra Crappy Grade".
> 
> I liked the Amperex (Holland) and the Tesla (32) E88CC when I had the MCTH.  I kind of miss that amp at times.


I had the chance to experiment with the E;ectro-Harmonix and the JJ beside the Gold Lion but due to its design the MCTH is not that affected with rolling so I stayed with the GL.
IN fact the main use of the MCTH is driving the Ananda as it even sounds better than the Violectric in doing so.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> How would they know??


Probably by realizing that the contents declared value is less than the shipping cost 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> I had the chance to experiment with the E;ectro-Harmonix and the JJ beside the Gold Lion but due to its design the MCTH is not that affected with rolling so I stayed with the GL.
> IN fact the main use of the MCTH is driving the Ananda as it even sounds better than the Violectric in doing so.



Apologies for not being DV related...but have you tried running your MCTH with an LPS? Now that makes a difference.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Apologies for not being DV related...but have you tried running your MCTH with an LPS? Now that makes a difference.


Am sure it will make a difference but any respectful LPS would cost twice the CTH price which does does not make it a logical purchase IMHO. Unless you can recommend a specific LPS 🙄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Well in fact am browsing now for variable current LPS on Amazon, seems few are decent and cheap (sub $100), does it make an audible difference ?


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Well in fact am browsing now for variable current LPS on Amazon, seems few are decent and cheap (sub $100), does it make an audible difference ?


I'll PM you as to not derail the thread.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> I'll PM you as to not derail the thread.


Thanks 👍
"derail the thread" from discussing the DV ???? or bashing GE tubes ?? 🤣🤣
Not sure when was the last time someone mentioned the DV in a good way on this thread 😛 or at all


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks 👍
> "derail the thread" from discussing the DV ???? or bashing GE tubes ?? 🤣🤣
> Not sure when was the last time someone mentioned the DV in a good way on this thread 😛 or at all


At 800+ pages of posts, the DV is doing something right.  For better or for worse, it's a winning recipe to have tubes, a soldering iron, and alcohol and a DV amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> At 800+ pages of posts, the DV is doing something right.  For better or for worse, it's a winning recipe to have tubes, a soldering iron, and alcohol and a DV amp.


Sure thing and a bunch of good friends too 👍👍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure it will make a difference but any respectful LPS would cost twice the CTH price which does does not make it a logical purchase IMHO. Unless you can recommend a specific LPS 🙄



Just make your own.  Much cheaper.        That's what I did (though not for the MCTH).

https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/


----------



## g3n3r1c

bcowen said:


> Just make your own.  Much cheaper.       That's what I did (though not for the MCTH).
> 
> https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/


Has anyone tried using a lab bench linear power supply instead of an audiophile product?

Example below, but no personal experience:

https://www.amazon.com/KORAD-KD3005D-Precision-Adjustable-Regulated/dp/B00FPU6G4E


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> Has anyone tried using a lab bench linear power supply instead of an audiophile product?
> 
> Example below, but no personal experience:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/KORAD-KD3005D-Precision-Adjustable-Regulated/dp/B00FPU6G4E


Yes. I used a BK Precision Bench Power Supply (on the MCTH). Works great and versatile.  Not the prettiest but gets it done.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Slade01 said:


> Yes. I used a BK Precision Bench Power Supply (on the MCTH). Works great and versatile.  Not the prettiest but gets it done.


I've been tempted to try one for a while, but I don't know the first thing about bench power supplies. Regarding a cost-effective option for the MCTH and cheaper amps, what about <$100 items (I linked to an $85 LPS from a random Chinese brand). I think the BK Precision runs $300+?


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> I've been tempted to try one for a while, but I don't know the first thing about bench power supplies. Regarding a cost-effective option for the MCTH and cheaper amps, what about <$100 items (I linked to an $85 LPS from a random Chinese brand). I think the BK Precision runs $300+?


They should be ok, although I'm sure its not made as much anymore (on ebay) as the MCTH has been around for quite some time now.  Back at its height, those Chinese made LPS were alright.  Definitely should be able to find them under 100.   

New BK Units can run that high yes.  But also of course can be had for alot cheaper used.  Im sure ones like you linked to is fine as well.  While bench LPS works...it doesn't exactly blend well a stack. Lol.   

If you are a DIYer though...its nice to have in your arsenal i'm sure.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Slade01 said:


> While bench LPS works...it doesn't exactly blend well a stack. Lol.
> 
> If you are a DIYer though...its nice to have in your arsenal i'm sure.


It would blend in just fine with the wall wart and cable forest behind my furniture... 

Honestly, I found out about LPS because of soldering projects and other items that list variable power requirements (e.g., Class D amps). I sold my MCTH long ago. If I get a bench PS, it'll probably be an LPS.


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> It would blend in just fine with the wall wart and cable forest behind my furniture...
> 
> Honestly, I found out about LPS because of soldering projects and other items that list variable power requirements (e.g., Class D amps). I sold my MCTH long ago. If I get a bench PS, it'll probably be an LPS.


My wife was happy when I sold my MCTH as it meant taking the "ugly monstrosity" off my desk.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Just make your own.  Much cheaper.       That's what I did (though not for the MCTH).
> 
> https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/


Looks sexy 😍
Is the casing custom made ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> My wife was happy when I sold my MCTH as it meant taking the "ugly monstrosity" off my desk.


And you substitute it with the DV ???  Your wife is very tolerant 😀


----------



## g3n3r1c

HTSkywalker said:


> Your wife is very tolerant 😀


I showed my wife a photo of a Crack before getting a kit, and she said "that looks cool." She was sold instantly. Table-top tube amps are relatively uncommon, cannot be ignored as decor, and cannot be confused with ordinary AV boxes. 

I then got a DV and put it next to the Crack...no resistance to that one either...


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> And you substitute it with the DV ???  Your wife is very tolerant 😀


Yeah well putting a GE tube in the MCTH sealed its fate for sure.


----------



## Mr Trev

g3n3r1c said:


> I showed my wife a photo of a Crack before getting a kit, and she said "that looks cool." She was sold instantly. Table-top tube amps are relatively uncommon, cannot be ignored as decor, and cannot be confused with ordinary AV boxes.
> 
> I then got a DV and put it next to the Crack...no resistance to that one either...


She's a keeper. Even I think the Crack is fuggly


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Looks sexy 😍
> Is the casing custom made ?


No, came from China via Ebay.  Not as cheap as some, but very nicely made.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 27, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> She's a keeper. Even I think the Crack is fuggly


An idea for a new thread:  Ugliest Headphone Amplifier? _Does bcowen’s sideways Incvbvs lead the roll call?…_


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> An idea for a new thread:  Ugliest Headphone Amplifier? _Does bcowen’s sideways Incvbvs lead the roll call?…_


There IS a thread already…lol
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-ugliest-headphone-amp-on-the-planet.155990/


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> There IS a thread already…lol
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-ugliest-headphone-amp-on-the-planet.155990/


Thank you…maybe I’ll find some amp mug shots with serial numbers underneath…


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> There IS a thread already…lol
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-ugliest-headphone-amp-on-the-planet.155990/



*Flips the channel* "welcome to Amplifier Nightmares...this is Gordon ramsey...im listening to this headphone amp...and...OMG...hey c'mere you.  Listen to this...its rubbish.  Bloody effing noise and static.  C'MON....now...its bollocks with this imbalance!?!? This amp looks like your dog vomited on a pile of rusty old radio parts...."

*Flips the channel* "yo yo yo...this is Xzibit on the show... pimp my amp"  today we got this ugly as hell as looking amp....sideways transformers, inputs at front, the case is made from MDF...what the hell? So we gonna get some CAPS, put some ground effects and some LEDs ...maybe some spinners and hydraulic lifts...we are gonna PIMP...THIS....AMPPP...!!!"

Seriously though...thats a funny thread.  Should keep up and find some more current examples.   Im sure some DIY there has produced some ugly amps in its time.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> An idea for a new thread:  Ugliest Headphone Amplifier? _Does bcowen’s sideways Incvbvs lead the roll call?…_



I kinda saw that.

My Incubus isn't ugly, it's _special_.  Like me.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 28, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> *Flips the channel* "welcome to Amplifier Nightmares...this is Gordon ramsey...im listening to this headphone amp...and...OMG...hey c'mere you.  Listen to this...its rubbish.  Bloody effing noise and static.  C'MON....now...its bollocks with this imbalance!?!? This amp looks like your dog vomited on a pile of rusty old radio parts...."
> 
> *Flips the channel* "yo yo yo...this is Xzibit on the show... pimp my amp"  today we got this ugly as hell as looking amp....sideways transformers, inputs at front, the case is made from MDF...what the hell? So we gonna get some CAPS, put some ground effects and some LEDs ...maybe some spinners and hydraulic lifts...we are gonna PIMP...THIS....AMPPP...!!!"
> 
> Seriously though...thats a funny thread.  Should keep up and find some more current examples.   Im sure some DIY there has produced some ugly amps in its time.


It would be valuable and funny to continue this. I cannot get any of the pictures from “Ugliest Headphone Amplifier on the Planet”. [I remember reading that a Head-Fi workover of the search function would cause loss of access to older picture files.]


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> I showed my wife a photo of a Crack before getting a kit, and she said "that looks cool." She was sold instantly. Table-top tube amps are relatively uncommon, cannot be ignored as decor, and cannot be confused with ordinary AV boxes.
> 
> I then got a DV and put it next to the Crack...no resistance to that one either...


I have a feeling that she will be asking for something expensive soon 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No, came from China via Ebay.  Not as cheap as some, but very nicely made.


Yeah looks solid 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> An idea for a new thread:  Ugliest Headphone Amplifier? _Does bcowen’s sideways Incvbvs lead the roll call?…_


@bcowen Incubus fall under the odd category, besides beauty is in the ears of the listener 😃😃


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen Incubus fall under the odd *special* category, besides beauty is in the ears *likeness* of the listener *@bcowen* 😃😃


FTFY.


----------



## g3n3r1c (Nov 28, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> beauty is in the ears of the listener


By that measure the 'ugliest amp' thread would be dominated by THX and Topping and their functional black boxes.

For visual ugliness start with the DIY creations for sale on Etsy...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1024352351/pete-millett-butte-solid-state?ref=shop_home_recs_1&frs=1


----------



## bcowen

g3n3r1c said:


> By that measure the 'ugliest amp' thread would be dominated by THX and Topping and their functional black boxes.
> 
> For visual ugliness start with the DIY creations for sale on Etsy...
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/1024352351/pete-millett-butte-solid-state?ref=shop_home_recs_1&frs=1


LOL!  That one wins, being truly_ Butte_ ugly.   

Dude should learn the meaning of "Measure twice, cut once."


----------



## Galapac

I nominate this guy.





whole story about it here…
https://votefordavid.wordpress.com/...w-desktop-headphone-amplifier-current-buffer/


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I nominate this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least it does not feature a GE tube…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least it does not feature a GE tube…


A GE tube might actually _help _that thing.


----------



## sam6550a

Galapac said:


> I nominate this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like one of my workbench breadboards.


----------



## g3n3r1c

sam6550a said:


> workbench breadboards.


Yeah, the Etsy guy _tried_ to make a custom case. Breadboards and cardboard box cases get the job done with no pretense. Many PCs have been built in cardboard boxes, and I used one to hold the top plate while finishing the Crack's wooden base.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> A GE tube might actually _help _that thing.


Ok…at least it did not feature a Philips ECG…_that_ *cannot* help anything!


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I nominate this guy.


Oh Yes! 👎👎👎👎👎! That makes a DarkVoice look like this….


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> A GE tube might actually _help _that thing.


That desperate ???? 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> FTFY.


Corrections committed 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> By that measure the 'ugliest amp' thread would be dominated by THX and Topping and their functional black boxes.
> 
> For visual ugliness start with the DIY creations for sale on Etsy...
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/1024352351/pete-millett-butte-solid-state?ref=shop_home_recs_1&frs=1


@Slade01 don't push it, forget about this amp 😀😀😋😋


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  That one wins, being truly_ Butte_ ugly.
> 
> Dude should learn the meaning of "Measure twice, cut once."


This dude should forget about the DIY concept all together or attend @Paladin79 academy starting with "wood 101"


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> I nominate this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe it's a blue print from DV R&D division 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> A GE tube might actually _help _that thing.


Anything can help in this case 😀😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> Yeah, the Etsy guy _tried_ to make a custom case. Breadboards and cardboard box cases get the job done with no pretense. Many PCs have been built in cardboard boxes, and I used one to hold the top plate while finishing the Crack's wooden base.


Cardboards makes me remember someone 😛😛


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> @Slade01 don't push it, forget about this amp 😀😀😋😋


I mean...he was better off building a case out of lego....


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Cardboards makes me remember someone 😛😛


…someone who lives in a cardboard Carolina blue abode…


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> This dude should forget about the DIY concept all together or attend @Paladin79 academy starting with "wood 101"


And “inches for idiots”…


----------



## Paladin79

My latest build will contain this tiger maple, solid copper, and a dark wood to help accentuate the maple.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Oh Yes! 👎👎👎👎👎! That makes a DarkVoice look like this….


ROFL!!!!!   Beauty is (of course) in the eye of the beholder, but damn.

Did you find that on the PlaySkool website under "Kindergartner's First Tube Amp"?  And do they have pink?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Cardboards makes me remember someone 😛😛


Shhhhhh.....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My latest build will contain this tiger maple, solid copper, and a dark wood to help accentuate the maple.


Will it be autographed by Finnegan?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Shhhhhh.....


…..iiiiit…..


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My latest build will contain this tiger maple, solid copper, and a dark wood to help accentuate the maple.


Not that you need any advice (especially from me), but just in case:  measure twice.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Not that you need any advice (especially from me), but just in case:  measure twice.


Before or after 🤪…?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Before or after 🤪…?


Both.  You have to measure after to be sure you didn't screw up the before.  Twice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 28, 2021)

There will be little chance of mistakes since I will use a biscuit joiner on this one. Boards are just cut to size and corner posts will act as legs.

I will be using a large top plate so I may even build this sideways.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There will be little chance of mistakes since I will use a biscuit joiner on this one. Boards are just cut to size and corner posts will act as legs.
> 
> I will be using a large top plate so I may even build this sideways.😜


Dangit.  I was hoping you were using one of these.  My hopes dashed against the rocks yet again.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Dangit.  I was hoping you were using one of these.  My hopes dashed against the rocks yet again.


I do own a dovetail jig but that requires removing so many feathers and the doves give you dirty looks.😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> I mean...he was better off building a case out of lego....


Not sure about his Lego building skills either 😂🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …someone who lives in a cardboard Carolina blue abode…


🙄🙄🙄🙄😋😋😋


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Both.  You have to measure after to be sure you didn't screw up the before.  Twice.


This would be called the "Too Late" stage


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do own a dovetail jig but that requires removing so many feathers and the doves give you dirty looks.😎


Yeah, but it would look uber-cool with tiger maple.  Not as tasty as biscuits though.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> This would be called the "T*w*o Late" stage


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> This would be called the "Too Late" stage


Or "situation normal" depending on perspective.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There will be little chance of mistakes since I will use a biscuit joiner on this one. Boards are just cut to size and corner posts will act as legs.
> 
> I will be using a large top plate so I may even build this sideways.😜


The sideway Incubus is a protected and registered model with exclusive ownership rights 😀😀


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The sideway Incubus is a protected and registered model with exclusive ownership rights 😀😀


I am shipping it to most every state in the union except North Carolina to avoid legal issues.😺 I have also asked everyone who hears and sees it to describe it to Bill.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am shipping it to most every state in the union except North Carolina to avoid legal issues.😺 I have also asked everyone who hears and sees it to describe it to Bill.


Recipients better stay anonymous in this case 😃😃


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am shipping it to most every state in the union except North Carolina to avoid legal issues.😺 I have also asked everyone who hears and sees it to describe it to Bill.


Fine.  I'll just make my own then.  It'll be called the CopyCatus.  I already have a mini rack for it.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure about his Lego building skills either 😂🤣


Especially unfortunate - in Latin, lego means “I read”…follow the instructions …


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am shipping it to most every state in the union except North Carolina to avoid legal issues.😺 I have also asked everyone who hears and sees it to describe it to Bill.


NC is in the union? When? Not a territory? 😳😖…


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> The sideway Incubus is a protected and registered model with exclusive ownership rights 😀😀


Are you offering Incubus update services to bring earlier models to version latest? [That ought to spur some opinions].


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> NC is in the union? When? Not a territory? 😳😖…


I could say that it it is/was in the Confederacy, but the politically correct folks would have me ostracized.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> NC is in the union? When? Not a territory? 😳😖…


Four states are commonwealths. I believe NC is an Un-commonwealth. I am not so sure they know we won the revolution and are still paying taxes to England.😁


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> *NC is in the union*? When? Not a territory? 😳😖…


Teamsters. 

We also know where Jimmy Hoffa is.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Are you offering Incubus update services to bring earlier models to version latest? [That ought to spur some opinions].



Of course, except for Bill.😜


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Teamsters.
> 
> We also know where Jimmy Hoffa is.


Most likely under a NC bar-b-cue pit.😉


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Teamsters.
> 
> We also know where Jimmy Hoffa is.


It he really in your tube closet??


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, except for Bill.😜


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> It he really in your tube closet??


I am not allowed to comment.  It's a (NC) state secret.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


>


I surmise that you did not sign paladin79s non-disclosure agreement that any info about Incubus Elegans, other than what tube goes in what socket is proprietary, and will be punished by listening to GE tubes and Marilyn Manson for eternity.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, except for Bill.😜


That makes absolute sense. Because the bcowen Incvbvs is the one and only ‘lateral mutant’, it by definition is the latest version…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> That makes absolute sense. Because the bcowen Incvbvs is the one and only ‘lateral mutant’, it by definition is the latest version…


I think that should read a version unto itself. If I build this one sideways it will be cool.😎


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> I surmise that you did not sign paladin79s non-disclosure agreement that any info about Incubus Elegans, other than what tube goes in what socket is proprietary, and will be punished by listening to GE tubes and Marilyn Manson for eternity.


Correction: one endures the above, not listens to the above…


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I think that should read a version unto itself. If I build this one sideways it will be cool.😎


And bcowen may have to spray-paint his green with envy + move to NV….


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> Correction: one endures the above, not listens to the above…


Well,---it does matter as to your perspective------.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I surmise that you did not sign paladin79s non-disclosure agreement that any info about Incubus Elegans, other than what tube goes in what socket is proprietary, and will be punished by listening to GE tubes and Marilyn Manson for eternity.


I'm assuming the non-disclosure agreement was included with the imaginary manual?  If so, I didn't read it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I think that should read a version unto itself. If I build this one sideways it will be cool.😎


Mine is already cool.  But the increasing number of royalty checks will mandate a larger mailbox here shortly....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm assuming the non-disclosure agreement was included with the imaginary manual?  If so, I didn't read it.


I believe Bill’s and my agreement was special. I think I said here’s an amp, leave me alone now.😜


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I believe Bill’s and my agreement was special. I think I said here’s an amp, leave me alone now.😜


And he has not let you alone??


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> And he has not let you alone??


Oh heck no, the man makes run of the mill pests look like Mother Teresa. 😁


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mine is already cool.  But the increasing number of royalty checks will mandate a larger mailbox here shortly....


I thought that all your mail goes / went to the freighter stuck in the Straits of Oman (…you know, offshore non-declared income…)


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> And he has not let you alone??


Shut up, Sam.  Now he's gonna want the amp back.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh heck no, the man makes run of the mill pests look like Mother Teresa. 😁


I strive to excel at everything I do.  Some things are more fun than others, of course.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I thought that all your mail goes / went to the freighter stuck in the Straits of Oman (…you know, offshore non-declared income…)


All except the royalty checks. I use those to fund my tube hoard collection.


----------



## sam6550a (Nov 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Shut up, Sam.  Now he's gonna want the amp back.


Would you relinquish it?? Ever?


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I'm assuming the non-disclosure agreement was included with the imaginary manual?  If so, I didn't read it.


Look!…if the manual were imaginary, how could anything have been disclosed? Thus everything was non-disclosed…hence a ‘non-disclosure agreement’…😆


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Shut up, Sam.  Now he's gonna want the amp back.


Lol the amp is in its proper home, and unique.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Would you relinquish it?? Ever?


Everything has a price.  First $25k gets it.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Look!…if the manual were imaginary, how could anything have been disclosed? Thus everything was non-disclosed…hence a ‘non-disclosure agreement’…😆


You obviously have a lack of imagination.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Four states are commonwealths. I believe NC is an Un-commonwealth.


Does this make bcowen a man of uncommon wealth? In which case, surrender of the ‘Sidecubus’ should not be onerous 😏…


----------



## JKDJedi

Can resoldering fix a tube with a short or is that wishful thinking? 😿


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> It he really in your tube closet??


Under a pile of GE tubes so no one ever will be interested in checking this corner


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Correction: one endures the above, not listens to the above…


Interrogation materials 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Shut up, Sam.  Now he's gonna want the amp back.


Finding Jimmy Hoffa's body is easier in this case


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Can resoldering fix a tube with a short or is that wishful thinking? 😿


I doubt re-soldering would help but it cannot hurt anything if done properly. What I have done in the past is to apply a relatively high charge to a shorted area to burn out enough material to clear the short. This has only worked for me about half the time but when dealing with a shorted tube you do not have a lot to lose. I generally use a charged electrolytic capacitor or a variac.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Can resoldering fix a tube with a short or is that wishful thinking? 😿


I’m not sure about your B&K, but Hickoks can give a false short reading if there is a bad connection to one of the elements (such as resulting from bad solder on one of the pins).  Never hurts to try resoldering. It may fix it, and worst case you’ve just wasted a little time if it doesn’t.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I’m not sure about your B&K, but Hickoks can give a false short reading if there is a bad connection to one of the elements (such as resulting from bad solder on one of the pins).  Never hurts to try resoldering. It may fix it, and worst case you’ve just wasted a little time if it doesn’t.


Besides…..better to use up soldering mix on a potentially salvageable good tube than to waste mix on a GE tube…😜


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> Besides…..better to use up soldering mix on a potentially salvageable good tube than to waste mix on a GE tube…😜


Not unless you are reflowing GE power tubes, like 6550A.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Not unless you are reflowing GE power tubes, like 6550A.


That way, you can ‘play it again, sam’  😖


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That way, you can ‘play it again, sam’  😖


Groan.


----------



## musicinmymind

I ordered darkVoice 336SE from Shenzhenaudio on 11//11 sale, till now no shipping.

Did write multiple email to them and also message @shenzhenaudio on Head-fi, no response at all


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I’m not sure about your B&K, but Hickoks can give a false short reading if there is a bad connection to one of the elements (such as resulting from bad solder on one of the pins).  Never hurts to try resoldering. It may fix it, and worst case you’ve just wasted a little time if it doesn’t.


thanks, I'll give it a shot then. Sold a nice 6520 (domino plated). And I'm guessing it either shorted during transit or on the guys amp. 😒 I value my name so when they asked if the could return it, (I cringed) I said if course, no biggie. I thought he just had buyers remorse but yeah that things shorted big time. freakn needle sweeps to the right like a bat out of hell, right channel. Oh well crap happens. Will try that tomorrow evening. If anyone can do it .. they don't call me the Tube Whisperer for nothing... 😁.


----------



## JKDJedi

musicinmymind said:


> I ordered darkVoice 336SE from Shenzhenaudio on 11//11 sale, till now no shipping.
> 
> Did write multiple email to them and also message @shenzhenaudio on Head-fi, no response at all


That could take months to get .. wondering if Drop (Massdrop) still sell them.


----------



## musicinmymind

JKDJedi said:


> That could take months to get .. wondering if Drop (Massdrop) still sell them.


Drop has only 110 v, i needed 240v


----------



## Slade01

Question for the DIYers - Is there a noticeable difference in TDK pots vs Alps Blue pots especially as it pertains to sound quality (I know there is a noticeable price difference).  Thanks.


----------



## Slade01

musicinmymind said:


> I ordered darkVoice 336SE from Shenzhenaudio on 11//11 sale, till now no shipping.
> 
> Did write multiple email to them and also message @shenzhenaudio on Head-fi, no response at all



When I ordered from Shenzenaudio back when it was "normal" pre-pandemic times, it was slow - took about three weeks total, and had to open a ticket with their customer service to request tracking information.   

I can't imagine how long it would take now with global shipping pretty screwed up and slow everywhere.  Also if you ordered from 11/11 sale up to black friday, i'm sure they are trying to process an extraordinary amount of orders during this time - so probably more time needed (both to respond to emails and ready orders).


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Question for the DIYers - Is there a noticeable difference in TDK pots vs Alps Blue pots especially as it pertains to sound quality (I know there is a noticeable price difference).  Thanks.


I have used both and have not heard a difference personally. Both brands seem to hold up well and you do have to be careful buying Alps Blue, there are some fakes out there.


----------



## musicinmymind

Slade01 said:


> When I ordered from Shenzenaudio back when it was "normal" pre-pandemic times, it was slow - took about three weeks total, and had to open a ticket with their customer service to request tracking information.
> 
> I can't imagine how long it would take now with global shipping pretty screwed up and slow everywhere.  Also if you ordered from 11/11 sale up to black friday, i'm sure they are trying to process an extraordinary amount of orders during this time - so probably more time needed (both to respond to emails and ready orders).



I finally got an reply from support team, carrier is fully loaded and it would take more time. 

Not worried now, anyway i have ordered bunch of tubes and have wait till jan


----------



## Mr Trev

Off topic post of the day…

Was browsing r/Damnthatsinteresting, found this post





The circle of life my friends

Also made the mistake of clicking the "future of sex toys" on the same thread. Gonna be having some nightmares tonight


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Off topic post of the day…
> 
> Was browsing r/Damnthatsinteresting, found this post
> 
> ...


😂😂😂😂.. I'll buy that for a $1


----------



## Paladin79

Off topic as well, I am going to do two final amp builds. The one I will make for my son is going to be very heavy and as pretty as I can make one. It is unfair of me to send it out as a loaner and expect each person to pay an inflated shipping cost and associated insurance. The loaner will be a more standard build and I can leave it out in the field longer and worry about it less. It will also allow me to experiment with a new construction technique before I do the serious build. I will send along some decent tubes with the loaner, perhaps a top of the line Melz 6sn7 equivalent that does not play well in a standard DV.


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> I ordered darkVoice 336SE from Shenzhenaudio on 11//11 sale, till now no shipping.
> 
> Did write multiple email to them and also message @shenzhenaudio on Head-fi, no response at all


you can add them on FB and chat live with them, they are extremely responsive on FB


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> Drop has only 110 v, i needed 240v


It may take sometime to ship but it would reach you quickly once shipped as they use DHL Express shipping


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂😂.. I'll buy that for a $1


The sex toys?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The sex toys?


I was wondering that myself, but was scared to ask (if you're in the mood for a serious What!, check it out)

If not, I found you a new power cable:


----------



## Mr Trev

Finally, a question for the older folk…
Anybody get to play with one of these growing up






I remember those 200 in one electronics kits from Radio Shack, but man your own personal atomic energy lab


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I was wondering that myself, but was scared to ask (if you're in the mood for a serious What!, check it out)
> 
> If not, I found you a new power cable:



LOL!  Awesome!  That would be some killer tonearm wire too.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Finally, a question for the older folk…
> Anybody get to play with one of these growing up
> 
> 
> ...


Based on the graphics, I'm not old enough.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Off topic post of the day…
> 
> Was browsing r/Damnthatsinteresting, found this post
> 
> ...


You don’t make that mistake without any forethought…😏


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> I was wondering that myself, but was scared to ask (if you're in the mood for a serious What!, check it out)
> 
> If not, I found you a new power cable:


That should really drive the sex toys!…


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> You don’t make that mistake without any forethought…😏


What can I say. I'm also one of those guys that will touch anything with a wet paint sign on it.


----------



## shenzhenaudio

musicinmymind said:


> I ordered darkVoice 336SE from Shenzhenaudio on 11//11 sale, till now no shipping.
> 
> Did write multiple email to them and also message @shenzhenaudio on Head-fi, no response at all


Thanks for your support, I have messaged you, any questions are welcome.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Based on the graphics, I'm not old enough.


I'll pass too 🙄🙄


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 1, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Finally, a question for the older folk…
> Anybody get to play with one of these growing up
> 
> 
> ...


Westinghouse-in-a-case! Why did GILBERT have to say that it was ‘safe’?…A ‘commie’ plot to take down the US from within (much like fluorides in H2O…)?…


----------



## chriscarstens

I had a Darkvoice for a while.  There were so many different tube combos to choose from.


----------



## jonathan c

chriscarstens said:


> I had a Darkvoice for a while.  There were so many different tube combos to choose from.


Different tubes, same hum?…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Different tubes, same hum?…


Speaking of tubes that cannot be used in a standard DarkVoice. I now have Melz tubes on the way from 1954,55,56, and 1957. The 56 and 57 are solid plate 1578's and never easy to find.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Speaking of tubes that cannot be used in a standard DarkVoice. I now have Melz tubes on the way from 1954,55,56, and 1957. The 56 and 57 are solid plate 1578's and never easy to find.


Where on earth were you still able to find those tubes ??? 🙂🙂


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Speaking of tubes that cannot be used in a standard DarkVoice. I now have Melz tubes on the way from 1954,55,56, and 1957. The 56 and 57 are solid plate 1578's and never easy to find.


Ah, your secret agents in the Ukraine are raiding little old ladies houses and talking them out of their old radios. You should be nominated as director of one of those 3 letter Washington agencies.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Ah, your secret agents in the Ukraine are raiding little old ladies houses and talking them out of their old radios. You should be nominated as director of one of those 3 letter Washington agencies.


Better ‘Palad’ than ‘Vlad’ on the Melz captures….🇺🇸👍…🇷🇺👎…


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Where on earth were you still able to find those tubes ??? 🙂🙂


I have friends in Russia who watch for some very specific tubes for me.😜 These could take a while to arrive but when they do I hope to send a 1954 perforated plate to @sam6550a, I already own a matched set but he might make use of a single.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Ah, your secret agents in the Ukraine are raiding little old ladies houses and talking them out of their old radios. You should be nominated as director of one of those 3 letter Washington agencies.


NGE…….Never General Electric…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have mob friends in Russia who watch and confiscate for some very specific tubes for me.😜


FTFY 😎😎
(@bcowen registered mark)


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I have friends in Russia who watch for some very specific tubes for me.😜 These could take a while to arrive but when they do I hope to send a 1954 perforated plate to @sam6550a, I already own a matched set but he might make use of a single.


Ve are alvays watching you, comrade.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Ve are alvays watching you, comrade.


And ve have vays of making tubes glow…


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> FTFY 😎😎
> (@bcowen registered mark)


A former card partner is Belarusian and she helps me with contacts in Russia. I also learned some buying tips from her X husband who still trades there to this day.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I have friends in Russia who watch for some very specific tubes for me.😜 These could take a while to arrive but when they do I hope to send a 1954 perforated plate to @sam6550a, I already own a matched set but he might make use of a single.


Thank you very much, Tom!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Thank you very much, Tom!


I never forget a favor and you are kind enough to send me satsumas.  There are also a bunch of 1979 standard 1578's for sale but they are not one of my favorite years. I will find out a price just in case I want to send one with my loaner amp. I am getting a LokI Max soon from Schiit so I may sell that particular one if I receive an offer I cannot refuse.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A *former *card *partner *is Belarusian and *she *helps me with contacts in Russia. I also learned some buying tips from her *X* husband who still *trades *there to this day.


Can't but realize a suspicious occurrence of words in *bold *which speaks for itself but sure will take it that you're only an innocent tube collector 😃😃


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Can't but realize a suspicious occurrence of words in *bold *which speaks for itself but sure will take it that you're only an innocent tube collector 😃😃


I am as pure as the driven slush.   This lady drove my El Camino when I owned it and she thought it was a wonderful vehicle. You may want to look at some of the Russian cars before you decide if that was a compliment.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> A former card partner is Belarusian and she helps me with contacts in Russia. I also learned some buying tips from her X husband who still trades there to this day.


…and the connections to the erstwhile NKVD*

[* Nikita Krushchev Valve Depositary]


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I am as pure as the driven slush.   This lady drove my El Camino when I owned it and she thought it was a wonderful vehicle. You may want to look at some of the Russian cars before you decide if that was a compliment.



Jesus every time I hear mention of the El Camino, I am always reminded of this:


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> …and the connections to the erstwhile NKVD*
> 
> [* Nikita Krushchev Valve Depositary]


Is that the one located in Chernobyl?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Jesus every time I hear mention of the El Camino, I am always reminded of this:



I know that scene well lol.


----------



## Galapac

sam6550a said:


> Ve are alvays watching you, comrade.





jonathan c said:


> And ve have vays of making tubes glow…


Those accents are terrible and sound German, not Russian….


----------



## sam6550a

Galapac said:


> Those accents are terrible and sound German, not Russian….


Well, you get what you pay for-----definitely not Hollywood quality!


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …and the connections to the erstwhile NKVD*
> 
> [* Nikita Krushchev Valve Depositary]


I buy many of my transformers from Russia as well as a few other components so I try to combine shipments and tubes are light in comparison. I do get photos and test results and if a tube does get damaged I am reimbursed immediately.

I am turning down NOS Melz 1578's from 1979, those can go for $150 on Ebay and my cost is $90 plus shipping but they are too mid-forward for my tastes.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Those accents are terrible and sound German, not Russian….


“If there is to be global conflict over access to Melz, we want others to look like the perpetrators….” (this communique _should_ erase momentarily…🇷🇺)


----------



## Paladin79

My loaner amp will be Spalted maple with Purple Heart corner posts. This is just a mock-up to show colors


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I buy many of my transformers from Russia as well as a few other components so I try to combine shipments and tubes are light in comparison. I do get photos and test results and if a tube does get damaged I am reimbursed immediately.
> 
> I am turning down NOS Melz 1578's from 1979, those can go for $150 on Ebay and my cost is $90 plus shipping but they are too mid-forward for my tastes.


The price is too mid-forward, also.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Is that the one located in Chernobyl?


…psst…the NKVD agents: blonde eyes/blue hair…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The price is too mid-forward, also.


In the past I got a bunch of 1963’s and let friends have them cheap. Now most I see are from 1979 or the Russians are asking top dollar for lesser versions. I was fortunate to start buying a few years back.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> In the past I got a bunch of 1963’s and let friends have them cheap. Now most I see are from 1979 or the Russians are asking top dollar for lesser versions. I was fortunate to start buying a few years back.


See what happens when you create market demand.
When we find a good tube that hasn't been hyped to the max, we need to say how crappy they sound and are only good for Christmas tree ornaments. Hmmm, christmas tree ornaments are a good idea, I'll take 20.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My loaner amp will be Spalted maple with Purple Heart corner posts. This is just a mock-up to show colors


What happened to the tiger maple?  If it's the royalties, I'd be glad to offer you a discount for one amp.  Say 5% off?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What happened to the tiger maple?  If it's the royalties, I'd be glad to offer you a discount for one amp.  Say 5% off?


The tiger maple is going into a more serious build, read back a ways.😜 it will be very heavy and it would cost a lot to ship between people. At least 2.5 lbs of copper and a larger cabinet built sideways. I decided on two amps.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> See what happens when you create market demand.
> When we find a good tube that hasn't been hyped to the max, we need to say how crappy they sound and are only good for Christmas tree ornaments. Hmmm, christmas tree ornaments are a good idea, I'll take 20.


There was demand for these tubes long before me, I just found out which versions I prefer. Now the Russians do not seem to realize the SQ in a few rare types and sell them for less money.🤪

Oh and I took the time to try over 1500 types with a group of friends to know where various tubes stacked up. Have you heard many Melz 1578’s?😽


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> There was demand for these tubes long before me, I just found out which versions I prefer. Now the Russians do not seem to realize the SQ in a few rare types and sell them for less money.🤪
> 
> Oh and I took the time to try over 1500 types with a group of friends to know where various tubes stacked up. Have you heard many Melz 1578’s?😽


“Over 1500 types”….say, 1578 😖 …


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 1, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Have you heard many Melz 1578’s?😽


Nah, don't have anything that can run octals without adapters. Probably a waste of money for that reason alone


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> “Over 1500 types”….say, 1578 😖 …


I wonder if @bcowen has more Fotons than @Paladin79 has of Melz tubes?


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I wonder if @bcowen has more Fotons than @Paladin79 has of Melz tubes?


Does this help?…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Does this help?…


Sorry what I meant was we heard in excess of 1500 6SN7 compatible tubes and certain Melz were at the top. We went through in excess of $50,000 in tubes from all over the world. I have an extensive collection of Melz but maybe 20 that I think are the cream of the crop.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I wonder if @bcowen has more Fotons than @Paladin79 has of Melz tubes?


Apples and oranges, Melz average upwards of four times the price of Fotons and of course they have peak years as well.😁


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The tiger maple is going into a more serious build, read back a ways.😜 it will be very heavy and it would cost a lot to ship between people. At least 2.5 lbs of copper and a *larger cabinet built sideways.* I decided on two amps.


Well then it's obvious it must come to me first for approval.  Call it a review sample rather than a loaner.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well then it's obvious it must come to me first for approval.  Call it a review sample rather than a loaner.


Sorry it will start out in Texas where they serve real bar-b-cue, then on to California and Washington state.😜 eventually it heads East.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well then it's obvious it must come to me first for approval.  Call it a review sample rather than a loaner.


Remember this? It is time to reactivate it !


----------



## HTSkywalker (Dec 2, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I wonder if @bcowen has more Fotons than @Paladin79 has of Melz tubes?


both are founding members of Hoarders Inc. 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry what I meant was we heard in excess of 1500 6SN7 compatible tubes and certain Melz were at the top. We went through in excess of $50,000 in tubes from all over the world. I have an extensive collection of Melz but maybe 20 that I think are the cream of the crop.


And the collection still going stronger 😃


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> And the collection still going stronger 😃


We got the tubes down to a final fifty-two, some tubes were donated that did not score near the top, others were returned to folks in the group who own them if they did not make the cut.  I sent a few Melz that made the top ten but we only wanted one representative of a type and some of the Melz were too similar. I am not sure any Melz with round micas made it. Eventually the results will be published as well as other things done by the group. One being a fanciful recreation of the stereo system in the police drama Bosch. That one was my idea as well as the 6sn7 blind listening. Others suggested DAC comparisons and power amp comparisons.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> We got the tubes down to a final fifty-two, some tubes were donated that did not score near the top, others were returned to folks in the group who own them if they did not make the cut.  I sent a few Melz that made the top ten but we only wanted one representative of a type and some of the Melz were too similar. I am not sure any Melz with round micas made it. Eventually the results will be published as well as other things done by the group. One being a fanciful recreation of the stereo system in the police drama Bosch. That one was my idea as well as the 6sn7 blind listening. Others suggested DAC comparisons and power amp comparisons.


Fifty two…hmm…deck of cards…weeks in year…average dB of DV hum (?)…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Fifty two…hmm…deck of cards…weeks in year…average dB of DV hum (?)…



Lol!
13 rounds of four tubes in four amps with four headphones and 50 people doing the evaluations. It needs about four days of listening would be my guess once things are safe. There will be a large party afterwards, this is semi-serious work so no drinking till testing is completed.😎 I did the cables and helped with equipment setup along with a half dozen engineers.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> We got the tubes down to a final fifty-two, some tubes were donated that did not score near the top, others were returned to folks in the group who own them if they did not make the cut.  I sent a few Melz that made the top ten but we only wanted one representative of a type and some of the Melz were too similar. I am not sure any Melz with round micas made it. Eventually the results will be published as well as other things done by the group. One being a fanciful recreation of the stereo system in the police drama Bosch. That one was my idea as well as the 6sn7 blind listening. Others suggested DAC comparisons and power amp comparisons.


Just when will this work be published and will it be available to us for purchase/reading? 
is there a timeline?
I have been hearing about this for a few years now I believe and I think we all would like to read the findings that this group has done with respect to 6SN7s and other projects.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 2, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Just when will this work be published and will it be available to us for purchase/reading?
> is there a timeline?
> I have been hearing about this for a few years now I believe and I think we all would like to read the findings that this group has done with respect to 6SN7s and other projects.


I doubt there would be a charge, I will secure several copies for friends if there is. It took a while to collect all the tubes and Covid hit. We have not done final tests so it cannot be published till that happens. We elect a leader every three years and my time is up so some of this is now out of my hands. It can be like herding cats to get everyone together in normal times, keeping everyone safe sharing headphones is not easy.

Eight of us did a blind listen and scored all tubes, that in itself took a long time. I built the amps shortly before @bcowen got his and I am guessing that is closer to 2 years ago.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I doubt there would be a charge, I will secure several copies for friends if there is. It took a while to collect all the tubes and Covid hit. We have not done final tests so it cannot be published till that happens. We elect a leader every three years and my time is up so some of this is now out of my hands. It can be like herding cats to get everyone together in normal times, keeping everyone safe sharing headphones is not easy.


Everyone always tells about the best, any chance you can mention the worst - specifically, ones that've been hyped beyond belief, and your tests had folks saying "what were they thinking?". With the number of tubes crossing the plate, I imagine there'd have to be some that ended up being medocre at best


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Lol!
> 13 rounds of four tubes in four amps with four headphones and 50 people doing the evaluations. It needs about four days of listening would be my guess once things are safe. There will be a large party afterwards, this is semi-serious work so no drinking till testing is completed…


…the only allowable ‘buzz’ is from a misbehaving transformer…


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 2, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Everyone always tells about the best, any chance you can mention the worst - specifically, ones that've been hyped beyond belief, and your tests had folks saying "what were they thinking?". With the number of tubes crossing the plate, I imagine there'd have to be some that ended up being medocre at best


Obviously GE and some of the lesser known Russian and Chinese tubes did poorly. Some GEC rated lower than expected as did Sylvania bad boys.

I hope I am not being redundant but a tube had to rate well in most of 25 criteria to be toward the top. We used the same scoring system on all tubes so it is not like just saying one sounds better than another. Each can be scored by itself. We decided to use the accuracy of large groups thus at least 50 people will do the final scoring.  Some tubes were borrowed or the cost of this would be far more than $50k. Two tubes could be described as priceless since they are one of a kind.😁


----------



## g3n3r1c

Paladin79 said:


> lower than expected as did Sylvania bad boys


I have a verified Bad Boy from a vendor with a strong reputation and found this tube to exaggerate and distort the midrange, and also lack dynamics. It's generally unpleasant. I discussed Bad Boys with another owner and he too reported issues with them. Furthermore, I have a JAN Sylvania with an oddly metallic and unnatural tone. I'm wondering whether the Bad Boy hype followed from either (1) a vendor making up a story and clever name to sell excess inventory, or whether (2) all the Bad Boys in circulation are by now heavily used and thereby mostly worn out.


----------



## Paladin79

g3n3r1c said:


> I have a verified Bad Boy from a vendor with a strong reputation and found this tube to exaggerate and distort the midrange, and also lack dynamics. It's generally unpleasant. I discussed Bad Boys with another owner and he too reported issues with them. Furthermore, I have a JAN Sylvania with an oddly metallic and unnatural tone. I'm wondering whether the Bad Boy hype followed from either (1) a vendor making up a story and clever name to sell excess inventory, or whether (2) all the Bad Boys in circulation are by now heavily used and thereby mostly worn out.


All tubes we used were as close to NOS as we could get them, in most cases one person who was not a judge concealed tubes so we would not have any bias toward a well known or expensive tube.

As I recall a person who got a large group of the Bad Boys coined the phrase. Others in order to sell less similar tubes might call them Bad Boys or like Bad Boys.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 3, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> All tubes we used were as close to NOS as we could get them, in most cases one person who was not a judge concealed tubes so we would not have any bias toward a well known or expensive tube.
> 
> As I recall a person who got a large group of the Bad Boys coined the phrase. Others in order to sell less similar tubes might call them Bad Boys or like Bad Boys.


I think he was from Australia and the genuine Bad Boys are a little taller (military issue) tubes than the norm and have JAN-CHS printed on the base.



0


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I think he was from Australia and the genuine Bad Boys are a little taller (military issue) tubes than the norm and have JAN-CHS printed on the base.
> 0


It's been a while since I read up on them but I seem to recall a bottom foil getter but who knows how many people have said what is and is not a Bad Boy. I can recall looking for some military versions, and some folks even saying the two hole military sounded the same. I just know we tried every version we could lay our hands on fairly early in the testing. Sylvania, Tung Sol, and RCA were pretty easy to locate. Other tubes from around the world took some time.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It's been a while since I read up on them but I seem to recall a bottom foil getter but who knows how many people have said what is and is not a Bad Boy. I can recall looking for some military versions, and some folks even saying the two hole military sounded the same. I just know we tried every version we could lay our hands on fairly early in the testing. Sylvania, Tung Sol, and RCA were pretty easy to locate. Other tubes from around the world took some time.


I spent a year studying this tube so yeah, lots of stories.


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 3, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I spent a year studying this tube so yeah, lots of stories.



Seriously though, it's gotten alot of mix, and the variation ranges so wide coming from people who say they sound like trash, to having outstanding mids and treble, and superior bass.   So go figure.  But its hard to say as people called alot of those Sylavnia variations as badboys and hard to distinguish what was what.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Yup.  One of the best marketing ploys of the tube world.  Gotta add that extra digit to the pricing.  Got a sylvania 50s tube...50 dollars right here.  BUT....  Got a Bad Boys Bad Boys Watchaa Gonna Do Green Print, Shiny Foil Getters, and not just 2, but 3 Rivet Holes.  Cuz you know three holes are better than 2.  Makes that sound more airy and aerodynamic.  All for the RARE price of 150!  Bangybang Vives!  BANG!  Shoot that cash money right out of your wallet!
> 
> Seriously though, it's gotten alot of mix, and the variation ranges so wide coming from people who say they sound like trash, to having outstanding mids and treble, and superior bass.   So go figure.  But its hard to say as people called alot of those Sylavnia variations as badboys and hard to distinguish what was what.
> 
> What's next?  You're gonna see people stamping 1578 on every russian made tube out there, call it rare - doesnt matter if melz or fotons.  Lol.


As best I know the 1578 means both sides of the tube are well matched. I have plenty of Melz and Fotons that measure that way without the stamp. What the Russians are doing now is to try to get high dollars out of any old Melz tube since what we call 1578's are becoming more rare.

Now that I own fairly complete sets I will tell you a top rated tube in our preliminary tests that goes for far less than many Melz tubes demand. They are not easy to find but I have purchased them for as low as $35 each. I sent one around to several people here to evaluate when I first found them and the results were quite positive.

I am not pushing or hawking these tubes and as I said, they are not easy to locate so most folks are lucky to find them, I have searched for them for a couple years now just to get the few I have. The closest thing I have heard is the 1961 Melz 1578 version, good luck finding them and you will pay $150 or so if you do.   You see all the indicators as well as shiny solid black plates in the photo. I do not sell them nor would I consider it and I took the trouble of seeking a lot of outside opinions on this one. Many of this series has problems with the solder in the pins but I have found fewer with issues in this version. They are dead silent with no signal. The russians seem transfixed with perforated plates and sell variations of those for high dollars. Most of the folks I sent them to on here have my Incubus amp so they were comparing apples to apples with what I hear, and I run these all the time. I started conducting the 6sn7 study in order to find such diamonds in the rough. Known years are 1956-1958.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> As best I know the 1578 means both sides of the tube are well matched. I have plenty of Melz and Fotons that measure that way without the stamp. What the Russians are doing now is to try to get high dollars out of any old Melz tube since what we call 1578's are becoming more rare.
> 
> Now that I own fairly complete sets I will tell you a top rated tube in our preliminary tests that goes for far less than many Melz tubes demand. They are not easy to find but I have purchased them for as low as $35 each. I sent one around to several people here to evaluate when I first found them and the results were quite positive.
> 
> I am not pushing or hawking these tubes and as I said, they are not easy to locate so most folks are lucky to find them, I have searched for them for a couple years now just to get the few I have. The closest thing I have heard is the 1961 Melz 1578 version, good luck finding them and you will pay $150 or so if you do.   You see all the indicators as well as shiny solid black plates in the photo. I do not sell them nor would I consider it and I took the trouble of seeking a lot of outside opinions on this one. Many of this series has problems with the solder in the pins but I have found fewer with issues in this version. They are dead silent with no signal. The russians seem transfixed with perforated plates and sell variations of those for high dollars. Most of the folks I sent them to on here have my Incubus amp so they were comparing apples to apples with what I hear, and I run these all the time. I started conducting the 6sn7 study in order to find such diamonds in the rough. Known years are 1956-1958.


Thanks.  I edited that 1578 comment out.  Learn something new and I dont want to impart any misinformation regarding the 1578 designation even if I was just kidding around.

To date people seem to use 1578 and Melz synonymously.  I ve never heard it to apply to any other Russian tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yup.  One of the best marketing ploys of the tube world.  Gotta add that extra digit to the pricing.  Got a sylvania 50s tube...50 dollars right here.  BUT....  Got a Bad Boys Bad Boys Watchaa Gonna Do Green Print, Shiny Foil Getters, and not just 2, but 3 Rivet Holes.  Cuz you know three holes are better than 2.  Makes that sound more airy and aerodynamic.  All for the RARE price of 150!  Bangybang Vives!  BANG!  Shoot that cash money right out of your wallet!
> 
> Seriously though, it's gotten alot of mix, and the variation ranges so wide coming from people who say they sound like trash, to having outstanding mids and treble, and superior bass.   So go figure.  But its hard to say as people called alot of those Sylavnia variations as badboys and hard to distinguish what was what.


Morning Roll With de Bad Boy..(rare grey plated) and Chatham (double D getter) 5998.. (me likey)


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Thanks.  I edited that 1578 comment out.  Learn something new and I dont want to impart any misinformation regarding the 1578 designation even if I was just kidding around.
> 
> To date people seem to use 1578 and Melz synonymously.  I ve never heard it to apply to any other Russian tube.


I mention 1578's to Russians and they just scratch their heads, it is more of a US designation. Some sellers stamp that on tubes, often in purple ink just to make Americans want them lol.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Yup.  One of the best marketing ploys of the tube world.  Gotta add that extra digit to the pricing.  Got a sylvania 50s tube...50 dollars right here.  BUT....  Got a Bad Boys Bad Boys Watchaa Gonna Do Green Print, Shiny Foil Getters, and not just 2, but 3 Rivet Holes.  Cuz you know three holes are better than 2.  Makes that sound more airy and aerodynamic.  All for the RARE price of 150!  Bangybang Vives!  BANG!  Shoot that cash money right out of your wallet!
> 
> Seriously though, it's gotten alot of mix, and the variation ranges so wide coming from people who say they sound like trash, to having outstanding mids and treble, and superior bass.   So go figure.  But its hard to say as people called alot of those Sylavnia variations as badboys and hard to distinguish what was what.


_Sylva_nia….in Latin, sylva means ‘forest’, ‘woods’….hence sellers+uncles are coming out of the woods with BBs…🤔😜…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> _Sylva_nia….in Latin, sylva means ‘forest’, ‘woods’….hence sellers+uncles are coming out of the woods with BBs…🤔😜…


A very good use of botanical Latin.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> We got the tubes down to a final fifty-two, some tubes were donated that did not score near the top, others were returned to folks in the group who own them if they did not make the cut.  I sent a few Melz that made the top ten but we only wanted one representative of a type and some of the Melz were too similar. I am not sure any Melz with round micas made it. Eventually the results will be published as well as other things done by the group. One being a fanciful recreation of the stereo system in the police drama Bosch. That one was my idea as well as the 6sn7 blind listening. Others suggested DAC comparisons and power amp comparisons.


Was that test carried lately ??


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Just when will this work be published and will it be available to us for purchase/reading?
> is there a timeline?
> I have been hearing about this for a few years now I believe and I think we all would like to read the findings that this group has done with respect to 6SN7s and other projects.


Ditto


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I doubt there would be a charge, I will secure several copies for friends if there is. It took a while to collect all the tubes and Covid hit. We have not done final tests so it cannot be published till that happens. We elect a leader every three years and my time is up so some of this is now out of my hands. It can be like herding cats to get everyone together in normal times, keeping everyone safe sharing headphones is not easy.
> 
> Eight of us did a blind listen and scored all tubes, that in itself took a long time. I built the amps shortly before @bcowen got his and I am guessing that is closer to 2 years ago.


Hope that would be possible before the Omicron Variant hits hard


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Was that test carried lately ??


which one, we have not concluded the 6sn7 project and DACS were looked at in 2019. After that we started on tubes and there was a year and a half where Covid really slowed things down.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Everyone always tells about the best, any chance you can mention the worst - specifically, ones that've been hyped beyond belief, and your tests had folks saying "what were they thinking?". With the number of tubes crossing the plate, I imagine there'd have to be some that ended up being medocre at best


GEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGE 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Hope that would be possible before the Omicron Variant hits hard


It is out of my control now, as I said earlier we each lead the group for a few years and my time in charge has passed.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Obviously GE and some of the lesser known Russian and Chinese tubes did poorly. Some GEC rated lower than expected as did Sylvania bad boys.
> 
> I hope I am not being redundant but a tube had to rate well in most of 25 criteria to be toward the top. We used the same scoring system on all tubes so it is not like just saying one sounds better than another. Each can be scored by itself. We decided to use the accuracy of large groups thus at least 50 people will do the final scoring.  Some tubes were borrowed or the cost of this would be far more than $50k. Two tubes could be described as priceless since they are one of a kind.😁


And the "priceless" tubes belong to you naturally 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> And the "priceless" tubes belong to you naturally 😁😁


No those were handed down from a friends grandfather to his grand son. The man was an engineer for RCA and built a couple prototypes that are one of a kind. There is nothing to compare them to, to establish a price reference. I had them in my possession and I was scared to death I would drop one of Finnegan would pounce on one.

As far as Covid, Indiana is not exactly a model of a well vaccinated state. When you mix science and politics, you get politics.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> No those were handed down from a friends grandfather to his grand son. The man was an engineer for RCA and built a couple prototypes that are one of a kind. There is nothing to compare them to, to establish a price reference. I had them in my possession and I was scared to death I would drop one of Finnegan would pounce on one.


The poor Finnegan would have a Wanted flyer all over the tube community


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> The poor Finnegan would have a Wanted flyer all over the tube community





He does have some playful moments.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> It is out of my control now, as I said earlier we each lead the group for a few years and my time in charge has passed.


…a vacuum in leadership would be the demise of the project…😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> GEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGEGE 🤣🤣🤣🤣


ECG…ECG…ECG…😖


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …a vacuum in leadership would be the demise of the project…😜


Oh I still have some input.😀


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> No those were handed down from a friends grandfather to his grand son. The man was an engineer for RCA and built a couple prototypes that are one of a kind. There is nothing to compare them to, to establish a price reference. I had them in my possession and I was scared to death I would drop one of Finnegan would pounce on one.
> 
> As far as Covid, Indiana is not exactly a model of a well vaccinated state. When you mix science and politics, you get politics.


I have a general question now. It's my understanding that these tubes (actually almost all tubes we use) were not intended for audio use. What exactly were they looking for way back when they were making prototypes? Do higher quality tubes make for more accurate guided missles? Radar screens more precise?
I've also gathered that tube rolling wasn't exactly a thing when these tubes were new either.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I have a general question now. It's my understanding that these tubes (actually almost all tubes we use) were not intended for audio use. What exactly were they looking for way back when they were making prototypes? Do higher quality tubes make for more accurate guided missles? Radar screens more precise?
> I've also gathered that tube rolling wasn't exactly a thing when these tubes were new either.


Some were used in audio but some of the better ones were used by the military or in test equipment. Some in transmitters and receivers. Durability and  precision in producing tubes of equal gain were factors as well. I suspect there was tube rolling in the sixties because of companies like Dynaco but maybe not much before.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Some were used in audio but some of the better ones were used by the military or in test equipment. Some in transmitters and receivers. Durability and  precision in producing tubes of equal gain were factors as well. I suspect there was tube rolling in the sixties because of companies like Dynaco but maybe not much before.


The big reason was ruggedness [immunity from shock & vibration], long life, low noise, and consistency of performance between production lots, however; some applications demanded tubes of a particular pedigree like low noise. In these applications, one of the other parameters were sacrificed to achieve the desired result.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Paladin79 said:


> I suspect there was tube rolling in the sixties because of companies like Dynaco but maybe not much before.


Based on the comments from my older relatives about "back in the day," when tubes were everyday commodities they were just that. Some device started acting up and they'd go down to the Radio Shack store, plug the suspect tubes into a huge tube tester, find the bad one, and grab whatever was on the shelf. They were enthusiastic about the arrival of transistors, as they weren't slow to warm up, hot in use, fragile, and heavy. They cast away a lot of tube radios. Tube rolling comes from a very different place and very different end-user goals.

CRT TVs outlasted every other tube in the mainstream. However, the disappearance of huge TVs and monitors in favor of flat panels was not bemoaned by anyone I know or met.

Hmmm? Anyone ever try a TV CRT for audio?


----------



## Mr Trev

sam6550a said:


> The big reason was ruggedness [immunity from shock & vibration], long life, low noise, and consistency of performance between production lots, however; some applications demanded tubes of a particular pedigree like low noise. In these applications, one of the other parameters were sacrificed to achieve the desired result.


Growing up in a transistorized world the whole tube thing is still a bit of a mystery to me


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Growing up in a transistorized world the whole tube thing is still a bit of a mystery to me


It takes some research, @sam6550a and I have been a part of both worlds. I had both tube and transistor theory in college.


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> CRT TVs outlasted every other tube in the mainstream. However, the disappearance of huge TVs and monitors in favor of flat panels was not bemoaned by anyone I know or met.
> 
> Hmmm? Anyone ever try a TV CRT for audio?



I haven't yet, but there are amps out there that may use them.  I am actually getting an amp in the near future that utilizes EF184 tubes which I've heard were designed for TVs which in a way is good as they are made to really last long and be on all day, etc.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I haven't yet, but there are amps out there that may use them.  I am actually getting an amp in the near future that utilizes EF184 tubes which I've heard were designed for TVs which in a way is good as they are made to really last long and be on all day, etc.


I am busy tonight or I would begin to explain why cathode ray tubes are not usable for audio unless you can listen to the colors red, green, and blue.🤪


----------



## bcowen

g3n3r1c said:


> I have a verified Bad Boy from a vendor with a strong reputation and found this tube to *exaggerate and distort the midrange, and also lack dynamics. It's generally unpleasant.* I discussed Bad Boys with another owner and he too reported issues with them. Furthermore, I have a JAN Sylvania with an oddly metallic and unnatural tone. I'm wondering whether the Bad Boy hype followed from either (1) a vendor making up a story and clever name to sell excess inventory, or whether (2) all the Bad Boys in circulation are by now heavily used and thereby mostly worn out.


That doesn't describe the Bad Boys *I* have.  A lack of dynamics could be just the house sound of a particular tube variety, or it could be a worn out tube.  Without a tester, there's no way to know for sure. 

That said, while I find the Bad Boys (that I have) to be good sounding tubes overall, they are not top tier.  Not even close.  Way, WAY overhyped and in many cases way overpriced, IMO.  And all that hype was likely created initially to sell a bulk pile of tubes at a premium price.  Now every seller on Ebay with a 6SN7 (or even equivalent) has to add in Bad Boy somewhere.  I guess it helps them sell?  I don't know.  As soon as I see Bad Boy anywhere in the tube description I just move on to the next listing, 'cause frankly I'm not interested in run-of-the-mill tubes (or sound).


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I am busy tonight or I would begin to explain why cathode ray tubes are not usable for audio unless you can listen to the colors red, green, and blue.🤪


LOL.  No doubt, but yet its still done.  Not that this tube in particular is solely a TV tube, but also for radio.   I'm no amp designer but always here the terms "frame grid pentode strapped as triode" but apparently its something that they can do to adapt it further to audio applications. 

And don't tempt fate - i'm sure there is probably at least one person on here that has can experience synesthesia!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  No doubt, but yet its still done.  Not that this tube in particular is solely a TV tube, but also for radio.   I'm no amp designer but always here the terms "frame grid pentode strapped as triode" but apparently its something that they can do to adapt it further to audio applications.
> 
> And don't tempt fate - i'm sure there is probably at least one person on here that has can experience synesthesia!


Big difference in a CRT and a receiving tube.   Lots of tubes that were initially designed for television have been folded into the audio world with very good results.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  No doubt, but yet its still done.  Not that this tube in particular is solely a TV tube, but also for radio.   I'm no amp designer but always here the terms "frame grid pentode strapped as triode" but apparently its something that they can do to adapt it further to audio applications.
> 
> And don't tempt fate - i'm sure there is probably at least one person on here that has can experience synesthesia!


I used pentodes as triodes using Russian and German tubes from WW 2 to win a bet. CRT’s are a whole different animal. Many used an anode voltage of 25,000 volts and a flyback transformer operating at a frequency of 15,750 cycles. You can hear that lol, not much else. A television has audio but that has little to do with interlaced or non interlaced scanning of a CRT screen. 🤪


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Big difference in a CRT and a receiving tube.   Lots of tubes that were initially designed for television have been folded into the audio world with very good results.


My brain is crap right now from a long day.  Cathode Ray Tubes.  The actual thing that is beaming the RGB electrons.  Jesus.  LOL.  Yeah. let the drinking begin.

On the other hand:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/971700-help-audio-amplifier-from-old-crt/


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> My brain is crap right now from a long day.  Cathode Ray Tubes.  The actual thing that is beaming the RGB electrons.  Jesus.  LOL.  Yeah. let the drinking begin.
> 
> On the other hand:
> 
> https://linustechtips.com/topic/971700-help-audio-amplifier-from-old-crt/


I've been bitten by an old CRT computer monitor. Interesting to say the least. Probably why they tell folks with no business poking round in there to stay the F out.


----------



## HTSkywalker

I still remember my first conversion into digital media around 1992 with Sony introducing it's MiniDisc MZ-1R which cost me around $1K. Am still keeping it in my Memorabilia stock along with large stock of empty Mini Discs 74min 🙂🙂


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> I still remember my first conversion into digital media around 1992 with Sony introducing it's MiniDisc MZ-1R which cost me around $1K. Am still keeping it in my Memorabilia stock along with large stock of empty Mini Discs 74min 🙂🙂


Cool! I had the MZ-G750 portable recorder, I remember you could carry what seemed a lot of music before iPods on those colored discs.
I believe it was able to play mp3s at the time and you could fit something like 14 CDs worth of music(mp3) on those tiny discs.
Was a very cool in-between technology, between CDs and iPods.

I think I even had a line out to a ”cassette“ so you could play it in the car too.
​


----------



## g3n3r1c

Slade01 said:


> Cathode Ray Tubes. The actual thing that is beaming the RGB electrons. Jesus. LOL.


I guess my subtle attempt at humor was a bit too subtle. Maybe we can use CRTs to show "music visualizations." I propose calling these "music videos," and to be shown in conjunction with audio. There could even be a dedicated channel called "Music TeleVision" to show music visualizations through the "boob tube." 

I'm a visionary.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I've been bitten by an old CRT computer monitor. Interesting to say the least. Probably why they tell folks with no business poking round in there to stay the F out.


Part of my background was in color TV, out of college I worked at the largest television plant in the world, later I led a repair company that had 50 people repairing television tuners, chassis and modules, then I was the second person in Indiana to set up a company to repair computer monitors so I have had a bit of background in the industry.   You learn to discharge picture tubes but they can continue to build a charge, I have only seen one tube dropped because of that but the tube can certainly zap you pretty well.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Part of my background was in color TV, out of college I worked at the largest television plant in the world, later I led a repair company that had 50 people repairing television tuners, chassis and modules, then I was the second person in Indiana to set up a company to repair computer monitors so I have had a bit of background in the industry.   You learn to discharge picture tubes but they can continue to build a charge, I have only seen one tube dropped because of that but the tube can certainly zap you pretty well.



I see now why you are on the nice list!

Lego Santa's workshop still using CRTs...


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I see now why you are on the nice list!
> 
> Lego Santa's workshop still using CRTs...


….===> the following question:  Which would sound better - Lego DV or actual DV?…(we know which would hum less…)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Cool! I had the MZ-G750 portable recorder, I remember you could carry what seemed a lot of music before iPods on those colored discs.
> I believe it was able to play mp3s at the time and you could fit something like 14 CDs worth of music(mp3) on those tiny discs.
> Was a very cool in-between technology, between CDs and iPods.
> 
> ...


It also had the cool feature of naming and displaying each track which was news at the time


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ….===> the following question:  Which would sound better - Lego DV or actual DV?…(we know which would hum less…)


The best sounding DV is a dead DV 😁😁


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> It also had the cool feature of naming and displaying each track which was news at the time


Minidisc are awesome. I still have a portable that uses the 1GB discs. Too bad that Sony had to be so "assy" regarding licensing and proprietary formats (you'd think they would've learned from Betamax)  otherwise Minidisc could've crushed the iPod in it's infancy


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> On the other hand:
> 
> https://linustechtips.com/topic/971700-help-audio-amplifier-from-old-crt/


OMG!!!  

And @Paladin79 gives me a hard time about swapping bona-fide audio tubes in my amp.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OMG!!!
> 
> And @Paladin79 gives me a hard time about swapping bona-fide audio tubes in my amp.


Just because a tube is real or genuine does not mean it belongs in an amp because it fits.😜😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just because a tube is real or genuine does not mean it belongs in an amp because it fits.😜😜


Shirley you can't be serious.   

Just a couple more wires to connect and I'll be ready to fire this up.  I'm gonna use the 5998 as a driver tube.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Shirley you can't be serious.
> 
> Just a couple more wires to connect and I'll be ready to fire this up.  I'm gonna use the 5998 as a driver tube.


Now there’s a bad idea😎. You know a filament winding will act like a fuse if you abuse it enough.😁 Be sure and do enough damage so I can say the amp is beyond economical repair and walk away from it.🤪


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Now there’s a bad idea😎. You know a filament winding will act like a fuse if you abuse it enough.😁 Be sure and do enough damage so I can say the amp is beyond economical repair and walk away from it.🤪


You would never walk away from one of your creations.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now there’s a bad idea😎. You know a filament winding will act like a fuse if you abuse it enough.😁 Be sure and do enough damage so I can say the amp is beyond economical repair and walk away from it.🤪


But...but....but you said that Russian transformer could handle 3.25 amps on the heater windings like a walk in the park.  So, huh?

Oh wait...I need two 845's, so 6.5 amps.  I'll put in a bigger fuse.  You *did* design with a bit of headroom, didn't you?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> But...but....but you said that Russian transformer could handle 3.25 amps on the heater windings like a walk in the park.  So, huh?
> 
> Oh wait...I need two 845's, so 6.5 amps.  I'll put in a bigger fuse.  You *did* design with a bit of headroom, didn't you?


Yours is sideways, I had to use smaller wire and parts to shoe horn yours into place. It’s a wonder it held up this long, I was expecting the cardboard to combust.🤣


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> You would never walk away from one of your creations.


I have a couple Chinese amps I can swap into his cabinet, I am not about to use good parts again.😜


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Shirley you can't be serious.
> 
> Just a couple more wires to connect and I'll be ready to fire this up.  I'm gonna use the 5998 as a driver tube.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I have a couple Chinese amps I can swap into his cabinet, I am not about to use good parts again.😜


Does your warranty not include a "no operational abuse" clause?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Does your warranty not include a "no operational abuse" clause?


I will pencil it in.😜


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Does your warranty not include a "no operational abuse" clause?


That part was in disappearing ink....on the disappearing paper. 

There's a sticker on the bottom though that instead of stating the usual "No user serviceable parts inside" states "No moron modifiable parts inside."  At first I thought that was directed at me, but then learned @Ripper2860 was getting one so it became obvious and I felt better.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That part was in disappearing ink....on the disappearing paper.
> 
> There's a sticker on the bottom though that instead of stating the usual "No user serviceable parts inside" states "No moron modifiable parts inside."  At first I thought that was directed at me, but then learned @Ripper2860 was getting one so it became obvious and I felt better.


That stickers still on..I think, should I look?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That stickers still on..I think, should I look?


🤣😂🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I'll PM you as to not derail the thread.


…not an Amtrak thread?…


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> …not an Amtrak thread?…


Nope.  Lol.  It's easy to fly of the rails here though so you know gotta at least try to keep it on track somewhat.  

Speaking of which, for those who are still rolling on the DV....anyone try this yet?  It's at least different looking.....

https://www.vivatubes.com/new-gain-...drqbIQCNHbro674NYm3FYphnXXN5piU4aAnzpEALw_wcB


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Nope.  Lol.  It's easy to fly of the rails here though so you know gotta at least try to keep it on track somewhat.
> 
> Speaking of which, for those who are still rolling on the DV....anyone try this yet?  It's at least different looking.....
> 
> https://www.vivatubes.com/new-gain-...drqbIQCNHbro674NYm3FYphnXXN5piU4aAnzpEALw_wcB


Not on DV. I have seen others try these, with socket savers, on the Schiit Lyr 3. Also on the Feliks Elise/Euforia, but adapters of quite different height have to be used for a pair…


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Nope.  Lol.  It's easy to fly of the rails here though so you know gotta at least try to keep it on track somewhat.
> 
> Speaking of which, for those who are still rolling on the DV....anyone try this yet?  It's at least different looking.....
> 
> https://www.vivatubes.com/new-gain-...drqbIQCNHbro674NYm3FYphnXXN5piU4aAnzpEALw_wcB


Reply #2: If that were a GE sitting in a h/p/a tube socket, I could test its microphonics with a Callaway driver 🏌🏿…😈…


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> Reply #2: If that were a GE sitting in a h/p/a tube socket, I could test its microphonics with a Callaway driver 🏌🏿…😈…


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Minidisc are awesome. I still have a portable that uses the 1GB discs. Too bad that Sony had to be so "assy" regarding licensing and proprietary formats (you'd think they would've learned from Betamax)  otherwise Minidisc could've crushed the iPod in it's infancy


Exactly, same mistake with Betamax which was at the time superior to VHS developed by JVC


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> You would never walk away from one of your creations.


That's the problem, in fact am not sure of any official warranty @bcowen have in his possession so he's literally under @Paladin79 mercy hence the polite approach 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That part was in disappearing ink....on the disappearing paper.
> 
> There's a sticker on the bottom though that instead of stating the usual "No user serviceable parts inside" states "No moron modifiable parts inside."  At first I thought that was directed at me, but then learned @Ripper2860 was getting one so it became obvious and I felt better.


A good marketing strategy especially if this sticker is also on all loaners 😆


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> A good marketing strategy especially if this sticker is also on all loaners 😆


The stickers are always there.   Other than an issue with shipping damage, I have had one amp that lost a channel. This was a loaner that had been through a few people and one of the tube sockets was dirty from tube rolling. I cleaned the sockets and it went on to someone else and no further issues occurred.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The stickers are always there.   Other than an issue with shipping damage, I have had one amp that lost a channel. This was a loaner that had been through a few people and one of the tube sockets was dirty from tube rolling. I cleaned the sockets and it went on to someone else and no further issues occurred.


Am pretty sure you can offer a 10 years warranty blindly on it 👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am pretty sure you can offer a 10 years warranty blindly on it 👍


Not exactly blindly lol, but I would always try to help as long as it was not tampered with.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Not exactly blindly lol, but I would always try to help as long as it was not tampered with.


By morons 😃😃


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> By morons 😃😃


Those are Bill's words, I was generally very careful about who received an amp.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Not exactly blindly lol, but I would always try to help as long as it was not tampered with.


Tampering:    Incubus ——> Incubust 😖


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Not exactly blindly lol, but I would always try to help as long as it was not tampered with.


Tampering (#2):   Finnegan’s Wake Wrath…


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Part of my background was in color TV, out of college I worked at the largest television plant in the world, later I led a repair company that had 50 people repairing television tuners, chassis and modules, then I was the second person in Indiana to set up a company to repair computer monitors so I have had a bit of background in the industry.   You learn to discharge picture tubes but they can continue to build a charge, I have only seen one tube dropped because of that but the tube can certainly zap you pretty well.


Sounds like sweet gig, but I would've been more impressed if you hadn't spelled colour incorrectly


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds like sweet gig, but I would've been more impressed if you hadn't spelled colour incorrectly


LOL, Oh that is right, you are still part of the British Commonwealth and use the King's English.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, Oh that is right, you are still part of the British Commonwealth and use the King's English.


At least you avoided disciplinary action for not using “valve” in lieu of tube…


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 6, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> At least you avoided disciplinary action for not using “valve” in lieu of tube…


Very true, you big city guys would know such things but I am in a small town and lucky to hear a civilized word spoken. 

I am trying out some 6SL7's, in a Cary amp, they have four metal supports per tube. Here is a bit of info. They need to burn in but thus far they are impressive.


A new matched pair of very rare super audio double triodes 1579, the best sounding version of 6SL7GT, are made at the Reflektor Plant in Saratov specifically for the nuclear industry and are products of the highest degree of reliability and long life (5000 hours). Clearly marked as military tubes with the <> on the glass envelope. This is the best choice for a preamp or phono stage.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, Oh that is right, you are still part of the British Commonwealth and use the King's English.


Technically, it's Queen's English as long as Lizzie's still alive


jonathan c said:


> At least you avoided disciplinary action for not using “valve” in lieu of tube…


I never could understand why they're referred to as (thermionic) valves on that side of the world… anybody able to enlighten me?


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Technically, it's Queen's English as long as Lizzie's still alive
> 
> I never could understand why they're referred to as (thermionic) valves on that side of the world… anybody able to enlighten me?


----------



## Galapac

Mr Trev said:


> I never could understand why they're referred to as (thermionic) valves on that side of the world… anybody able to enlighten me?


Just the scientific term for the tube or valve and where it was invented in 1904 by English physicist John Ambrose. Thermionic is relating to electrons emitted from a substance at very high temperature.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Just the scientific term for the tube or valve and where it was invented in 1904 by English physicist John Ambrose. Thermionic is relating to electrons emitted from a substance at very high temperature.


😁


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


>





Galapac said:


> Just the scientific term for the tube or valve and where it was invented in 1904 by English physicist John Ambrose. Thermionic is relating to electrons emitted from a substance at very high temperature.


Oh, I got the thermionic part… the valve part was what's throwing me for a loop


----------



## sam6550a

Mr Trev said:


> Oh, I got the thermionic part… the valve part was what's throwing me for a loop


If you add a mesh or grid in the path of the electron stream, you can vary or modulate that electron stream, like a valve regulates water flow. Since the energy to modulate the electron stream is much lower than the stream itself, we can say that amplification occurs. That is where the term thermionic valve [or to us in the colonies, vacuum tube] comes from


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 7, 2021)

Finnegan should be leaving my vacuum tubes alone soon. We are just putting up a small tree with cheap ornaments since we will be out of town and he loves it.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan should be leaving my vacuum tubes alone soon. We are just putting up a small tree with cheap ornaments since we will be out of town and he loves it.


Do you have any GE novals that you could pin up as ornaments?….if not…GE piñata filler for Cinco de Mayo…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Do you have any GE novals that you could pin up as ornaments?….if not…GE piñata filler for Cinco de Mayo…


Finnegan prefers GEC’s, he is pretty particular.😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan should be leaving my vacuum tubes alone soon. We are just putting up a small tree with cheap ornaments since we will be out of town and he loves it.


No matter how cheap the ornaments maybe, give him the GE box . still less valuable 😆


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> No matter how cheap the ornaments maybe, give him the GE box . still less valuable 😆


Unfortunately GE box value > GE tube value 😕…


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> No matter how cheap the ornaments maybe, give him the GE box . still less valuable 😆


Finnegan is smarter than that.  What fun is there in trashing a piece of trash?


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> No matter how cheap the ornaments maybe, give him the GE box . still less valuable 😆


Until it contains the hidden GEC that he was really after…😸😈…


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> What fun is there in trashing a piece of trash?


What, you've never blown up an old toilet? Now that's some quality fun!


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> What, you've never blown up an old toilet? Now that's some quality fun!


More so if someone (else) is on it 😈😈😈


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-JAN-6C4...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-JAN-6C4...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Free shipping, but still overpriced.  The ones I have are pretty blah.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Free shipping, but still overpriced.  The ones I have are pretty blah.


For a GE tube, ‘blah’ from you is Michelin 3-stars (not 4-stars). Is bcowen > 98.6F….?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Free shipping, but still overpriced.  The ones I have are pretty blah.


But the ones I posted don’t have the upper dual micas like yours


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Finnegan is smarter than that.  What fun is there in trashing a piece of trash?


True and besides it's Christmas time, would be nasty to give him a GE trash box 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> What, you've never blown up an old toilet? Now that's some quality fun!


Won't be long till a GE rep team would be suing us 😃


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Won't be long till a GE rep team would be suing us 😃


For not liking their tubes?…made by accountants…?…


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> True and besides it's Christmas time, would be nasty to give him a GE trash box 😁


…..fill it with kitty litter…


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> But the ones I posted don’t have the upper dual micas like yours


True.  More micas usually means more better, but then we're talking GE's.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> True.  More micas usually means more better, but then we're talking GE's.


Yeah my GE is branded National and has gray plates with no dual upper micas. They do sound good. Did your English 6C4s arrive yet? The new 5998?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah my GE is branded National and has gray plates with no dual upper micas. They do sound good. Did your English 6C4s arrive yet? The new 5998?


The Brimars, yes.  Pretty OK, but not lighting my fire.  5998?  Nope.  First the seller's computer broke, now he has the "flu".  I'm just hoping his dog doesn't eat it before he ships it, but that excuse would be par for the course at this point.  I'll give him until Saturday to ship, and if that doesn't happen I'll turn it over to Ebay...with subsequent ruination of that 100% positive feedback score if it comes to that. I honestly think he was expecting to get a lot more for it and is now doing everything he can to avoid sending it. I could just demand my money back, but he's pissed me off at this point and I'm not that sleazy easy.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> The Brimars, yes.  Pretty OK, but not lighting my fire.  5998?  Nope.  First the seller's computer broke, now he has the "flu".  I'm just hoping his dog doesn't eat it before he ships it, but that excuse would be par for the course at this point.  I'll give him until Saturday to ship, and if that doesn't happen I'll turn it over to Ebay...with subsequent ruination of that 100% positive feedback score if it comes to that. I honestly think he was expecting to get a lot more for it and is now doing everything he can to avoid sending it. I could just demand my money back, but he's pissed me off at this point and I'm not that sleazy easy.


I will send you my Brimar’s to compare one day.  Sorry to hear that. Don’t let him get away with it. Those sellers are the worst, definitely experienced them on eBay. They make up any excuse because packaging up an item and taking it to the drop off is such an inconvenience. They already got paid.


----------



## DenverW

Maybe you could use the box the GE tubes come in to hold real tubes.  See?  They’re not worthless after all.


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> Maybe you could use the box the GE tubes come in to hold hide real tubes.  See?  They’re not worthless after all.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HTSkywalker

DenverW said:


> Maybe you could use the box the GE tubes come in to hold real tubes.  See?  They’re not worthless after all.


Yeah as long as the shipping is free 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Not even an illiterate thief would bother taking any GE marked product, not worth the prison time 😆😆


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> Not even an illiterate thief would bother taking any GE marked product, not worth the prison time 😆😆


They make a fine steam turbine generator and good turbofan engines!


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Not even an illiterate thief would bother taking any GE marked product, not worth the prison time 😆😆


A) Theft is the unlawful taking of property. B) Property is an asset with value. C) GE tubes have no value. D) GE tubes are not property. E) The taking of GE tubes =/= theft. F) No prison time. G) Possible honourary chief-of-police for a day…for action taken on public nuisance.


----------



## g3n3r1c

For those of you who've used tube adapters on the 336, which--if any--are "worth the effort"? 6J5? 12AU7? Etc? Etc? I fear spending a lot of money to end up with about the same quality as possible with 6SN7s, or end up restricted to a handful of mediocre tube options. Has anyone written up a general summary already? (If so, I missed it.) 

Curiosity + cat = dead.


----------



## bcowen

g3n3r1c said:


> For those of you who've used tube adapters on the 336, which--if any--are "worth the effort"? 6J5? 12AU7? Etc? Etc? I fear spending a lot of money to end up with about the same quality as possible with 6SN7s, or end up restricted to a handful of mediocre tube options. Has anyone written up a general summary already? (If so, I missed it.)
> 
> Curiosity + cat = dead.


6C4's.  Adapter needed.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> They make a fine steam turbine generator and good turbofan engines!


Yes, and good MRI machines (and other medical devices) as well.  

My brother-in-law was recruited by GE out of college, and has been there ever since (almost 40 years now).  He was a quality engineer at their Albuquerque jet engine facility for a number of years, and when I told him GE tubes suck (along with most everything else), his retort was "How many times have you died in a crash from a plane equipped with GE engines?"  Since I'm not dead yet (as far as I know), he kind of had me. So I told him GE appliances suck.


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Yes, and good MRI machines (and other medical devices) as well.
> 
> My brother-in-law was recruited by GE out of college, and has been there ever since (almost 40 years now).  He was a quality engineer at their Albuquerque jet engine facility for a number of years, and when I told him GE tubes suck (along with most everything else), his retort was "How many times have you died in a crash from a plane equipped with GE engines?"  Since I'm not dead yet (as far as I know), he kind of had me. So I told him GE appliances suck.


You can reply that the ‘plane did not crash _because _it did _not_ have GE tubes in the avionics etc…


----------



## Slade01

g3n3r1c said:


> For those of you who've used tube adapters on the 336, which--if any--are "worth the effort"? 6J5? 12AU7? Etc? Etc? I fear spending a lot of money to end up with about the same quality as possible with 6SN7s, or end up restricted to a handful of mediocre tube options. Has anyone written up a general summary already? (If so, I missed it.)
> 
> Curiosity + cat = dead.


Speaking for myself, I felt dual 6J5 were vastly superior to any single 6SN7.  So much so that I sold 99% of my 6SN7 collection off.  (The sole survivor is a Melz 1578). 

I developed an affinity and rule that for any given amp that can run dual tubes in lieu of a single one...to use dual tube/adapters.  I have favored this across three different tube amps  now...always finding the dual 6J5 superior in sound.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Speaking for myself, I felt dual 6J5 were vastly superior to any single 6SN7.  So much so that I sold 99% of my 6SN7 collection off.  (The sole survivor is a Melz 1578).
> 
> I developed an affinity and rule that for any given amp that can run dual tubes in lieu of a single one...to use dual tube/adapters.  I have favored this across three different tube amps  now...always finding the dual 6J5 superior in sound.


And as a bonus, many excellent sounding 6J5's can still be found for way less than the top tier 6SN7's...even after factoring in the need for 2 of them.  

These TungSols are pretty sweet (thanks to @therremans ):


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> 6C4's.  Adapter needed.


Hmm. Tell me a story about those 6C4


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmm. Tell me a story about those 6C4


Once upon a time there were some tubes....

(filler)

...and they all lived happily ever after.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Once upon a time there were some tubes....
> 
> (filler)
> 
> ...and they all lived happily ever after.


Any chance they lived happily in your Vali?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Any chance they lived happily in your Vali?


Haven't tried them in the Vali.  The Brimar Footscray CV4003 seems to have taken up permanent residence there.  I _could_ try them though...I'm sure I have an adapter somewhere.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Haven't tried them in the Vali.  The Brimar Footscray CV4003 seems to have taken up permanent residence there.  I _could_ try them though...I'm sure I have an adapter somewhere.


Brimar… riight. Forgot all about that one. Man I really need to do some tube shopping, but honestly I've been looking for a different amp altogether


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Haven't tried them in the Vali.  The Brimar Footscray CV4003 seems to have taken up permanent residence there.  I _could_ try them though...I'm sure I have an adapter somewhere.


Get on that! I expect a report on my desk by the end of the weekend.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> A) Theft is the unlawful taking of property. B) Property is an asset with value. C) GE tubes have no value. D) GE tubes are not property. E) The taking of GE tubes =/= theft. F) No prison time. G) Possible honourary chief-of-police for a day…for action taken on public nuisance.


True it's kind of waste disposal 😁😁


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> True it's kind of waste disposal 😁😁


OK---I will gladly accept any and all zero value GE 6550A tubes that you are discarding.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 11, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Get on that! I expect a report on my desk by the end of the weekend.


Oh, OK.  I'll treat this like my day job then where it absolutely, positively has to be done eventually.  I'm your man.


----------



## bcowen

If anybody is looking for a totally worn out TS 5998, today is your lucky day.  And for only $48....with FREE shipping!!!!!!!

Honestly, I just don't get it.  Maybe PT Barnum was right.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1250437415...brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> If anybody is looking for a totally worn out TS 5998, today is your lucky day.  And for only $48....with FREE shipping!!!!!!!
> 
> Honestly, I just don't get it.  Maybe PT Barnum was right.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/125043741516?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200818142055&meid=d3f55ef28d32404bbdd2990a0d914126&pid=101113&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=194586431159&itm=125043741516&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2563228&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108


Saw that last night. He also has a worn out / min. testing pair for $150.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Saw that last night. He also has a worn out / min. testing pair for $150.


Hmmmm.....are two worn out tubes equal to one NOS?   😂🤣


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....are two worn out tubes equal to one NOS?   😂🤣


It would still make the Darkvoice better though. Worn out readings and all...


----------



## TeknicalXtacy

What's a good very available set of tubes for my DarkVoice.  Have HD800S that I use with the amp.  So I guess good bass character would be the focus.  But I am not looking for an in depth search, just an off the shelf improvement - if possible.


----------



## therremans

TeknicalXtacy said:


> What's a good very available set of tubes for my DarkVoice.  Have HD800S that I use with the amp.  So I guess good bass character would be the focus.  But I am not looking for an in depth search, just an off the shelf improvement - if possible.


What’s your budget?


----------



## TeknicalXtacy

Depends I guess.  $200?


----------



## bcowen

TeknicalXtacy said:


> Depends I guess.  $200?


Chatham 6AS7G and a '50's vintage Foton.  Nice combination that I'm groovin' to right now (although in a different amp).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154734173846?hash=item2406e01e96:g:28YAAOSwebNhrHeM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154742686095?hash=item240762018f:g:htQAAOSwC-5hs5yx


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Chatham 6AS7G and a '50's vintage Foton.  Nice combination that I'm groovin' to right now (although in a different amp).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154734173846?hash=item2406e01e96:g:28YAAOSwebNhrHeM
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154742686095?hash=item240762018f:g:htQAAOSwC-5hs5yx


Except that if his darkvoice is stock...Russian tubes are more kryptonite....


----------



## TeknicalXtacy

Its stock.  Pretty new.  Liking it though.  Just figured maybe there was a basic tube upgrade.  I could spend more if needed.

What tube sizes should I be looking at?


----------



## TeknicalXtacy

TeknicalXtacy said:


> Its stock.  Pretty new.  Liking it though.  Just figured maybe there was a basic tube upgrade.  I could spend more if needed.
> 
> What tube sizes should I be looking at?


What about this?​​6SN7GTA General Electric / 1950's​$79.95
Price is for a single tube with standard testing.
QTY:



Free Shipping Over $99*
*NOS-6SN7GTA-GE*


----------



## g3n3r1c (Dec 12, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Russian tubes are more kryptonite....


Yes. I'd never choose a 1950s Foton for my stock DV. Other tubes hum but it tends to fade or become inaudible with use. Not Foton! BZZZZZZZZZ!!!!


----------



## therremans (Dec 12, 2021)

I would recommend these with your budget and you don’t want to mess around with adapters or the amp. Always get test results and I’ll test any tubes for you for free. Prices can fluctuate on tubes as always but they’re pretty high right now. You can get lower prices if you are willing to wait it out and watch new listing hits.

Rear Output Power tube:
Chatham 6AS7G ($40-$80) link
Mullard 6080 ($60-$100) link
Tung-sol 5998 ($85-$150)

Front driver tube:
5692 ($75-$100) red base GE or RCA link
RCA VT-231 Gray glass ($40-$80)
Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass ($60-$100)
National Union 6sn7gt black glass ($50) 
link


----------



## bcowen (Dec 12, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Except that if his darkvoice is stock...Russian tubes are more kryptonite....


Very good point...thanks for the good eye!  I forgot about that since mine is not stock.  Scratch the Foton, although the Chatham is still a good choice and the 6SN7's @therremans noted are all very solid recommendations...without undue hum.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 12, 2021)

TeknicalXtacy said:


> What about this?​​6SN7GTA General Electric / 1950's​$79.95
> Price is for a single tube with standard testing.
> QTY:
> 
> ...


A GE would be my 2nd to last choice of every 6SN7 ever made (last choice would be a Philips ECG).  To each his own and YMMV of course, but if you want a GE don't overpay to that extent for one. *Lots* of them available on Ebay.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Very good point...thanks for the good eye!  I forgot about that since mine is not stock.  Scratch the Foton, although the Chatham is still a good choice and the 6SN7's @therremans noted are all very solid recommendations...without undue hum.



Lol.  Don't get me wrong.  Foton's have become a favorite of mine - and I think pound for pound it is one of the best tubes you can get for the price these days.  It's actually my reason for moving on from the DV.  I was just tired of buying tubes I could not enjoy.  The killer is that you'd hear the potential...you know the tube would be totally great if not given the amp's shortcomings, but the humming ruins the experience.   

@TeknicalXtacy I second therremans recommendations, and bcowen recommendation of the chatham 6as7g power tube.  
You could definitely be set for quite a while if you get any combination of those tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I was just tired of buying tubes I could not enjoy.


* _When hoarding IS a problem *  💸😒😩_


----------



## TeknicalXtacy

therremans said:


> I would recommend these with your budget and you don’t want to mess around with adapters or the amp. Always get test results and I’ll test any tubes for you for free. Prices can fluctuate on tubes as always but they’re pretty high right now. You can get lower prices if you are willing to wait it out and watch new listing hits.
> 
> Rear Output Power tube:
> Chatham 6AS7G ($40-$80) link
> ...


So tube mentioned are a step "up".  What type sound signature changes would one expect to hear?


----------



## therremans

TeknicalXtacy said:


> So tube mentioned are a step "up".  What type sound signature changes would one expect to hear?


You can search for that, it would be a lot of repeating of information already out there and in depth. Even this thread would offer sonic descriptions.


----------



## AudioCats

Slade01 said:


> ... The killer is that you'd hear the potential...you know the tube would be totally great if not given the amp's shortcomings, but the humming ruins the experience.
> 
> ...


changing filament supply to DC is straight forward though. Bolt a 25A bridge rectifier to the inside of back panel, connect using 1/4" push-on QC terminals; Add filter caps in the amp area (~15,000uf to get dead silence). plenty of space inside the enclosure.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> The killer is that you'd hear the potential...you know the tube would be totally great if not given the amp's shortcomings, but the humming ruins the experience.


This reminds me of the back-handed / back-of-hand compliment:  ‘Your ability is only exceeded by your potential’…😄..🤔..😒


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 13, 2021)

AudioCats said:


> changing filament supply to DC is straight forward though. Bolt a 25A bridge rectifier to the inside of back panel, connect using 1/4" push-on QC terminals; Add filter caps in the amp area (~15,000uf to get dead silence). plenty of space inside the enclosure.


I know.  But so is buying a new amp. Very straight forward.  Click add to cart, send money and done!

For real, armed with a soldering iron, I have the combined powers of Gozer with the destructive powers of the stay puft marshmallow man.  Melting s*** at will.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I know.  But so is buying a new amp. Very straight forward.  Click add to cart, send money and done!
> 
> For real, armed with a soldering iron, I have the combined powers of Gozer with the destructive powers of the stay puft marshmallow man.  Melting s*** at will.


Michelin man on a mission!….


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> If anybody is looking for a totally worn out TS 5998, today is your lucky day.  And for only $48....with FREE shipping!!!!!!!
> 
> Honestly, I just don't get it.  Maybe PT Barnum was right.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/125043741516?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200818142055&meid=d3f55ef28d32404bbdd2990a0d914126&pid=101113&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=194586431159&itm=125043741516&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2563228&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108



He is at least being honest with the reading…this one though states no way to test and No Returns…big red flag…

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234208128276?hash=item3687e46d14:g:3rMAAOSwK8VhUy1e

The big known secret is EVERYTHING is returnable for a buyer on eBay


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 14, 2021)

[ snow gently falling…sleigh bells ringing…carolers singing ]

*PSA to Head-Fier @bcowen:*

“In this Christmas season, this season of giving, please give these needy folks a hand. Please give them the hope that fills their spirits. Play some Marilyn Manson at any volume of your choice on your ‘laterally challenged’ _Incvbvs_. Bless you!”


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> [ snow gently falling…sleigh bells ringing…carolers singing ]
> 
> *PSA to Head-Fier @bcowen:*
> 
> “In this Christmas season, this season of giving, please give these needy folks a hand. Please give them the hope that fills their spirits. Play some Marilyn Manson at any volume of your choice on your ‘laterally challenged’ _Incvbvs_. Bless you!”


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I wouldn't subject the Incubus to such abuse.  Perhaps the Darkvoice should be employed with max volume hum.  If that doesn't work, I have an Innersound solid-scrape amp in the basement.  330wpc into 8 ohms, 660wpc into 4 ohms, and almost 1300wpc into 2 ohms.  Basically an arc welder, and sounds like I would expect an arc welder would sound.  Maybe there's finally a use for it 'cause music it surely isn't.  😀


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> Lol.  Don't get me wrong.  Foton's have become a favorite of mine - and I think pound for pound it is one of the best tubes you can get for the price these days.  It's actually my reason for moving on from the DV.  I was just tired of buying tubes I could not enjoy.  The killer is that you'd hear the potential...you know the tube would be totally great if not given the amp's shortcomings, but the humming ruins the experience.
> 
> @TeknicalXtacy I second therremans recommendations, and bcowen recommendation of the chatham 6as7g power tube.
> You could definitely be set for quite a while if you get any combination of those tubes.



In my old T1 the combination Chatham 6as7g and Foton/Melz 1578 was pretty bad.

But on the HD650 what an amazing combination.

It's one of my favorites.

Foton really is a tremendous value for what it offers.

For me it easily surpassed alternatives like Ken Rad vt231, RCA vt231, Sylvania Vt231 and Raytheon Vt231.

All that vt231 that I mentioned above have already been sold.

Currently, I only keep in my 6sn7 collection - Foton (50's), Melz 1578 and Brimar.

With adapters I keep GEC l63 (coca bottle) (my preferred driver valve), TS 6j5g (coca bottle), TS 6j5gt (straight bottle) and Fivre 6c5g (straight bottle).

I'm no longer curious to try any more driver valves on the DV.


----------



## SHIMACM

Regarding the FOTON hums on my DV, of the six FOTONS I own, three hum, the other three are silent.

The ones that are buzzing I haven't burned them properly yet.

All other valve drivers it has were completely silent.

Remembering that my Darkvoice is version 220v and this standard is supported in Brazil.

The people in my country who complain about tinnitus on Darkvoice are the ones who bought the 110v version, as the two supported standards here are 127V and 220V.

So the 110v version would be getting a higher load on the device.

That can be the problem sometimes, because mine is totally silent.


----------



## Mr Trev

SHIMACM said:


> Regarding the FOTON hums on my DV, of the six FOTONS I own, three hum, the other three are silent.
> 
> The ones that are buzzing I haven't burned them properly yet.
> 
> ...


127? That's an odd number…
Do you guys run at 50 or 60Hz down there?


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/500W-Varia...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Regarding the FOTON hums on my DV, of the six FOTONS I own, three hum, the other three are silent.
> 
> The ones that are buzzing I haven't burned them properly yet.
> 
> ...


That could definitely be a consideration.  My DV (the 110v version) puts right at 7v on the heaters with 119v coming out of the wall.  Heater voltages for most tubes are supposed to be +/- 10% of the spec'ed value, so even at 7v I'm a bit over that...but not far enough over to make me worry about it. At 127v though, the heaters would likely be in the 7.2v to 7.3v range, which if nothing else will shorten tube life.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> In my old T1 the combination Chatham 6as7g and Foton/Melz 1578 was pretty bad.
> 
> But on the HD650 what an amazing combination.
> 
> ...



SHHHHHHH.....you're spilling all the secrets! There is a method to @bcowen 's hoarding logic and reasoning for his foton underground / iron mountain type stronghold of a warehouse.  




SHIMACM said:


> Regarding the FOTON hums on my DV, of the six FOTONS I own, three hum, the other three are silent.
> 
> The ones that are buzzing I haven't burned them properly yet.
> 
> All other valve drivers it has were completely silent.



Yup.  It's good for DV owners to know especially those with the 110V version that Fotons could be problematic.   Some can be overcome with burn-in.   But there are those even beyond help.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/500W-Varia...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Is it just me or does $35 seem suspiciously cheap for a variac?


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Is it just me or does $35 seem suspiciously cheap for a variac?


No, have the exact same one. Works.


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Is it just me or does $35 seem suspiciously cheap for a variac?


Rather - if you've been looking for one, should probably jump on this deal...


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> Rather - if you've been looking for one, should probably jump on this deal...


As much as I like science experiments, I'm not sure if I want to guinea pig my gear
Besides, they apparently don't ship to Canada - and at 3.5kg I don't even want to hear what the shipping from China would cost


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Is it just me or does $35 seem suspiciously cheap for a variac?


I have the 1 kVA rated one of the same thing that I paid $60 for a while back IIRC.  Works just fine, although the built-in meter is a joke (I use a Y-splitter that I plug my Fluke into one end and the component into the other).  I use it for calibrating tube testers and such and don't have it in my audio chain though.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I have the 1 kVA rated one of the same thing that I paid $60 for a while back IIRC.  Works just fine, although the built-in meter is a joke (I use a Y-splitter that I plug my Fluke into one end and the component into the other).  I use it for calibrating tube testers and such and don't have it in my audio chain though.


Yes a meter is a must.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> That could definitely be a consideration.  My DV (the 110v version) puts right at 7v on the heaters with 119v coming out of the wall.  Heater voltages for most tubes are supposed to be +/- 10% of the spec'ed value, so even at 7v I'm a bit over that...but not far enough over to make me worry about it. At 127v though, the heaters would likely be in the 7.2v to 7.3v range, which if nothing else will shorten tube life.



I'll give preference to my other Fotons (the ones that zoom) to check if they are silent with the burn.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> SHHHHHHH.....you're spilling all the secrets! There is a method to @bcowen 's hoarding logic and reasoning for his foton underground / iron mountain type stronghold of a warehouse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I revealed all the secrets......


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


>


Don't u mean...


----------



## jonathan c

To warm the soul during this season…


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> To warm the soul during this season…


How could anybody do such a thing to that poor boombox?


----------



## sam6550a

Mr Trev said:


> How could anybody do such a thing to that poor boombox?


That is what happens when you play Marilyn Manson at too high a volume for too long a period of time.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> That is what happens when you play Marilyn Manson at too high a volume for too long a period of time.


This is so true.  Marilyn Manson requires tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> How could anybody do such a thing to that poor boombox?


It was what was being played that did it…


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> That is what happens when you play Marilyn Manson at too high a volume for too long a any period of time.


FTFY [Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021**]

** final FTFY royalty payment for 2021 is due to bcowen by 15-Jan-2022: USD only, NO _GE!!_


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This is so true.  Marilyn Manson requires tubes.


Plug ‘n play with your favourite…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It was what was being played that did it…


The Captain and Tennile, probably.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Plug ‘n play with your favourite…


I said _tubes.  _Devices of thermionic emission,_ not_ germ-ionic transmission.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY [Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021**]
> 
> ** final FTFY royalty payment for 2021 is due to bcowen by 15-Jan-2022: USD only, NO _GE!!_


Should I send Brinks to assure safe pickup and delivery?


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Should I send Brinks to assure safe pickup and delivery?


Is UT driving?…RHD vs LHD…


----------



## therremans (Dec 20, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6C5-VT65-J...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5-Sylvan...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## jonathan c

nice!


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> nice!


(I thought it could have been boxes at first too.) Until I read the description and saw the rest of the photos. Nice price and I’ve always heard good things about the Ken-Rad 6C5s.

I really like the metal RCA 6J5s/VT-94. Great tubes for the money and a fun one to try to track down a matching pair.

I also picked up those metal Sylvania 6J5s he had since the shipping would be covered… Hopefully they sound pretty similar to the Sylvania gray plate 6J5GT or have a similar sound.


----------



## JKDJedi

Rearranged the furniture


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> Rearranged the furniture


…and the ‘before’ photograph…?


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> …and the ‘before’ photograph…?


hah! well, it was in the right side of my desk, it's now in the left. 😂...


----------



## therremans

Mullard 6080 + RCA VT-94 metal cans.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Rearranged the furniture


Dang neatniks.  You and @therremans are gonna embarrass me into cleaning up.  Of course then I won't know where everything is...


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Dang neatniks.  You and @therremans are gonna embarrass me into cleaning up.  Of course then I won't know where everything is...


You must not own any cats. Also that Darkvoice looks way too stock, are those still the original output caps?


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Mullard 6080 + RCA VT-94 metal cans.


Nice, me likey.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Dang neatniks.  You and @therremans are gonna embarrass me into cleaning up.  Of course then I won't know where everything is...


LM F A O !!! Well.. It's an organized mess no less, or more or..


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> You must not own any cats. Also that Darkvoice looks way too stock, are those still the original output caps?


My cats are well trained and know to stay away.       

And sigh, yes, those are still the original caps.  Gotta get to work on that thing one of these days.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Dang neatniks.  You and @therremans are gonna embarrass me into cleaning up.  Of course then I won't know where everything is...


Wait...when did you get them Atticus!! dammit..everyone is getting them ZMF cans ..   Nice grab.. I'm torn between that or the Eikons right now, soon as I get some funding that is..  then I'd be torn twice than I am now..


----------



## therremans

I’d like to try on the Aeolus.


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Dang neatniks.  You and @therremans are gonna embarrass me into cleaning up.  Of course then I won't know where everything is...


Nice! I like how you have your tube/adapter combos (Purina Sidecubus Chow?) inside the headphone stand 😆….
….also, is the Schiit stack between the Sidecubus and the headphone stand a Lego replica?…it looks so small…


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Wait...when did you get them Atticus!! dammit..everyone is getting them ZMF cans ..   Nice grab.. I'm torn between that or the Eikons right now, soon as I get some funding that is..  then I'd be torn twice than I am now..


Got them about 6 months ago.  Wondrous mates with OTL's.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Nice! I like how you have your tube/adapter combos (Purina Sidecubus Chow?) inside the headphone stand 😆….
> ….also, is the Schiit stack between the Sidecubus and the headphone stand a Lego replica?…it looks so small…


LOL!  Lego Schiit.    That's my original stack that got me started down the whole HP rabbit hole about 4 years ago. And even though it's been muscled out of the way by its more accomplished brethren, it's still very enjoyable to listen to. Plus the Vali 2 will play low impedance 'phones that the OTL's have difficulty with (yes, that's a $105 Footscray in there....makes total sense in a $150 amp, right)?


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Lego Schiit.    That's my original stack that got me started down the whole HP rabbit hole about 4 years ago. And even though it's been muscled out of the way by its more accomplished brethren, it's still very enjoyable to listen to. Plus the Vali 2 will play low impedance 'phones that the OTL's have difficulty with (yes, that's a $105 Footscray in there....makes total sense in a $150 amp, right)?


I still enjoy running the Audeze LCD-X (20 ohms) off the Valhalla II OTL (w/ Fotons & RFTs): the V-II output impedance is: 3.5 / 14.0 on low / high gain setting…and it sounds 👍.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Plus the Vali 2 will play low impedance 'phones that the OTL's have difficulty with (*yes, that's a $105 Footscray in there....makes total sense in a $150 amp, right*)?


You know you're an audiophile when…


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> You know you're an audiophile when…


…before falling asleep, you wonder if the filament current for a 6DJ8 is 300 mA or 365 mA 😳…


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> …before falling asleep, you wonder if the filament current for a 6DJ8 is 300 mA or 365 mA 😳…



Yes, Androids dream of Electric Sheep.   And those sheep have 6DJ8 tubes at 365mA.  I'll take Le Tits Now for 400, Alex.


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> Mullard 6080 + RCA VT-94 metal cans.



Between Mullard 6080 and TUNG-SOL/ CETRON 7236 which one is good?


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> Between Mullard 6080 and TUNG-SOL/ CETRON 7236 which one is good?


Both.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …before falling asleep, you wonder if the filament current for a 6DJ8 is 300 mA or 365 mA 😳…


Crap.  Now I can’t sleep.


----------



## musicinmymind

bcowen said:


> Both.


, if I want to get one which one you recommend.

They are expensive, do not spend for both.


----------



## therremans (Dec 23, 2021)

musicinmymind said:


> , if I want to get one which one you recommend.
> 
> They are expensive, do not spend for both.


Mullard 6080. It will be more neutral sounding, with more full range body than the 7236. The Mullard 6080 is also good at soundstage and pulling out little details in the music. It’s worth that $75-$100 price tag.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-MU...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

The 7236 is like a poor man’s 5998. It’s a higher gain sort of tube that can awaken sleepy driver tubes. You’ll hear a more fast and energetic sound but this doesn’t pair well with all tubes, such as an already hot driver tube. The 5998 has noticeably more punch and heft than the 7236. I also consider the 5998 to be lacking some depth/bass when compared to some others, 7236 is just even more so. The 7236 still a good tube to have around for unique driver tubes. It’s worth $50-$75, if you cannot find a 5998 at a decent price.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> You know you're an audiophile when…


.....When you can't have enough buying new audio gadgets especially weird looking shiny tubes 😁😁😁


----------



## g3n3r1c

HTSkywalker said:


> When you


use vacuum tubes as tree ornaments:





https://inkstainswithroni.blogspot.com/2013/07/christmas-in-july-2-steampunk-ish.html




https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/c5/91/5ec5916dc699f50f1749590158fdeaea.jpg


----------



## therremans

g3n3r1c said:


> use vacuum tubes as tree ornaments:
> 
> 
> https://inkstainswithroni.blogspot.com/2013/07/christmas-in-july-2-steampunk-ish.html
> ...


I’ll have to show this to my fiancé.


----------



## Mr Trev

Happy Festivus!!


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> , if I want to get one which one you recommend.
> 
> They are expensive, do not spend for both.


I'm happy to tell you which one *I* prefer (the Mullard), but it may not be _your _preference given the chance to hear both.  I think @therremans did a nice job explaining the different sonic characters between them if that helps any.


----------



## bcowen

g3n3r1c said:


> use vacuum tubes as tree ornaments:
> 
> 
> https://inkstainswithroni.blogspot.com/2013/07/christmas-in-july-2-steampunk-ish.html
> ...


Hanging a TungSol upside down by its toes?  That should be illegal.  But illegal stuff is fun, so....cool.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I'm happy to tell you which one *I* prefer (the Mullard), but it may not be _your _preference given the chance to hear both.  I think @therremans did a nice job explaining the different sonic characters between them if that helps any.


Was just listening to the 7236 with those RCA 6J5 tin cans. Sounded nice. The RCA have great mid range and the 7236 made them shine well. Low end wasn’t quite as full but was definitely present. If anyone is seeking out these RCAs, I should have some extra pairs I’d be willing sell. They do pop up on eBay but the 1940s VT-94 ones are harder to come by.


----------



## therremans

They do walk all over the GEC straight bottle L63s. In my amp anyway.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> They do walk all over the GEC straight bottle L63s. In my amp anyway.


Your socks don t match.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Your socks don t match.


Flew well overhead.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Your socks don t match.


What about Gm…?🤔


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> What about Gm…?🤔


yeah, one tests quite low but still sounds fine. Purchased this pair a couple months before I bought a tester off @bcowen. Seller didn’t respond to my message.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> yeah, one tests quite low but still sounds fine. Purchased this pair a couple months before I bought a tester off @bcowen. Seller didn’t respond to my message.



You're always finding the crazy wacky sellers!


----------



## therremans (Dec 23, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> You're always finding the crazy wacky sellers!


Thankfully the price was pretty good. Some crazy sellers but typically on good finds.

Also, avoid this woman on eBay.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Thankfully the price was pretty good. Some crazy sellers but typically on good finds.
> 
> Also, avoid this woman on eBay.


For tubes or xxx…?


----------



## therremans (Dec 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> For tubes or xxx…?


tubes, but she may have a variety of services. Testing tubes just isn’t one of them.


----------



## g3n3r1c

therremans said:


> Some crazy sellers but typically on good finds.
> 
> Also, avoid this woman on eBay.


I'm pretty forgiving of nonprofessional tube sellers on Ebay, such as those liquidating an estate or getting rid of tubes without test equipment. Set your expectations and risk tolerance before bidding or making an offer, particularly if they were up front about sales rules (e.g., as-is, untested, no returns). If you've ever dealt with professional movers, they won't pay a dime of insurance on electronics if the are not visibly dented, cracked, or smashed during shipping. I've had several electronic devices die during moves, including a previously great TV sound bar that croaked in just 5 miles. A lot of electronic equipment -- soldering -- simply doesn't do well in the rough and tumble of shipping. Tubes "should" be okay relative to other stuff, but may not be. 

Someday I want to get rid of about half the tubes I now own, but I don't have a tester myself. I'd either sell them as a $1 start auction bulk lot or price them based on personal estimates (as functioning with my amps and sounding okay). Tubes are a niche and luxury market so one must take chances. 

Retail vendors and regular tube sellers have more predictable value and return policies, but they often have high prices too.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 24, 2021)

g3n3r1c said:


> I'm pretty forgiving of nonprofessional tube sellers on Ebay, such as those liquidating an estate or getting rid of tubes without test equipment. Set your expectations and risk tolerance before bidding or making an offer, particularly if they were up front about sales rules (e.g., as-is, untested, no returns). If you've ever dealt with professional movers, they won't pay a dime of insurance on electronics if the are not visibly dented, cracked, or smashed during shipping. I've had several electronic devices die during moves, including a previously great TV sound bar that croaked in just 5 miles. A lot of electronic equipment -- soldering -- simply doesn't do well in the rough and tumble of shipping. Tubes "should" be okay relative to other stuff, but may not be.
> 
> Someday I want to get rid of about half the tubes I now own, but I don't have a tester myself. I'd either sell them as a $1 start auction bulk lot or price them based on personal estimates (as functioning with my amps and sounding okay). Tubes are a niche and luxury market so one must take chances.
> 
> Retail vendors and regular tube sellers have more predictable value and return policies, but they often have high prices too.


I'm forgiving too when the tube is stated as untested and sold by someone that doesn't have a history of tube sales.  I can then determine if the price is appealing enough to take the risk, and I've scored some nice tubes this way over the years for cheap.  I've had some duds, but the good have significantly outnumbered the bad.  The sellers I take issue with are ones that state the tube is tested, provide measurements, and then when I get the tube find out the advertised values aren't even on the same planet.***   The seller either 1) lied outright, 2) has no clue how to operate a tester, or 3) has a tester that hasn't been calibrated since 1965. I always give any seller like that the benefit of the doubt and allow them to make good on a bad tube, and if they do I usually just don't leave feedback.  If they don't, I have no problem whatsoever turning it over to Ebay and leaving negative feedback.  And I make it a point to _always_ leave positive feedback for the sellers that deliver exactly what they advertised.

***note: I'm very wary of sellers stating "tests good" without providing any actual value(s) AND their tester's reference for those values.  A tube can have GM at 1% above the reject (or minimum good) point, and it technically "tests good."  Or said the other way, it doesn't test "bad"...but not by much.  Brent Jessee comes to mind....


----------



## bcowen (Dec 26, 2021)

Magical pairing night.  IBM-branded TungSol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (thanks @Paladin79 !).  With the Atticus in use, pairing the 5998 with a Foton 6N8S is a bit too plump in the bass...kind of annoyingly so.  The Melz is flatter and more neutral in that area bringing about a Goldilocks synergy. Awesome bass with awesome punch and slam, but not overdone.  When using the Chatham 6AS7G I actually prefer the Foton over the Melz as the Chatham doesn't have quite the bass pump of the 5998 and the Foton's emphasis there is a plus.  But man oh man, the 5998 paired with the Melz is doing some serious rockin'!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Magical pairing night.  IBM-branded TungSol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (thanks @Paladin79 !).  With the Atticus in use, pairing the 5998 with a Foton 6N8S is a bit too plump in the bass...kind of annoyingly so.  The Melz is flatter and more neutral in that area bringing about a Goldilocks synergy. Awesome bass with awesome punch and slam, but not overdone.  When using the Chatham 6AS7G I actually prefer the Foton over the Melz as the Chatham doesn't have quite the bass pump of the 5998 and the Foton's emphasis there is a plus.  But man oh man, the 5998 paired with the Melz is doing some serious rockin'!


Certainly with the Atticus at the chain’s end, you don’t want any sonic ‘plumpness’ upstream. Not only would that upset the overall balance but also dilute the Atticus’ ‘attack’ which is considerable.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Magical pairing night.  IBM-branded TungSol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (thanks @Paladin79 !).  With the Atticus in use, pairing the 5998 with a Foton 6N8S is a bit too plump in the bass...kind of annoyingly so.  The Melz is flatter and more neutral in that area bringing about a Goldilocks synergy. Awesome bass with awesome punch and slam, but not overdone.  When using the Chatham 6AS7G I actually prefer the Foton over the Melz as the Chatham doesn't have quite the bass pump of the 5998 and the Foton's emphasis there is a plus.  But man oh man, the 5998 paired with the Melz is doing some serious rockin'!


I'll take your word on the SQ, but that is some purty glow


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I'm forgiving too when the tube is stated as untested and sold by someone that doesn't have a history of tube sales.  I can then determine if the price is appealing enough to take the risk, and I've scored some nice tubes this way over the years for cheap.  I've had some duds, but the good have significantly outnumbered the bad.  The sellers I take issue with are ones that state the tube is tested, provide measurements, and then when I get the tube find out the advertised values aren't even on the same planet.***   The seller either 1) lied outright, 2) has no clue how to operate a tester, or 3) has a tester that hasn't been calibrated since 1965. I always give any seller like that the benefit of the doubt and allow them to make good on a bad tube, and if they do I usually just don't leave feedback.  If they don't, I have no problem whatsoever turning it over to Ebay and leaving negative feedback.  And I make it a point to _always_ leave positive feedback for the sellers that deliver exactly what they advertised.
> 
> ***note: I'm very wary of sellers stating "tests good" without providing any actual value(s) AND their tester's reference for those values.  A tube can have GM at 1% above the reject (or minimum good) point, and it technically "tests good."  Or said the other way, it doesn't test "bad"...but not by much.  Brent Jessee comes to mind....


I agree. A seller’s transparency and a buyer’s common sense will go a long way. If they offer returns, it’s an easy gamble to take. Most untested tubes I’ve bought end up testing great and I truly believe the seller just didn’t have a tester.

When a seller just states “tests good”. I suspect that they likely have the values and chose not to include them. Some cheap testers may not give great results. But I will typically ask for the actual results before I bid. However if they offer returns, it’s a safe risk to take.

Now I’ve definitely have had more sellers (like the above mentioned), give values that are so far away from reality that they may have just made them up or are using a useless tester. I’ve had some that don’t even glow but a resolder job typically fixes that issue.

But what bothers me the most is a seller who gets very defensive right away. Someone who can’t admit any fault and will choose to get aggressive, even though there’s a lot of room for fault in their test values. Either they didn’t even test them or their tester isn’t calibrated.


----------



## therremans (Dec 28, 2021)

Chatham 6080 (1959, 1960)

I received this pair today, I do like these. I think that they offer a detailed high end but without missing the low end like a Thomson 6080 can. They don’t quite have the fullness or same level of separation that a Mullard (or Bendix 6080) offers… but it’s much cheaper and still offers a nice dynamic output. I would recommend them for an affordable output tube that still performs.

One of them had some intermittent problematic readings, then it would test fine. So I tested it on the amp and it was crackling/slightly popping when the tube was touched and when light pressure was applied to it. I assumed it was just the solder.

I reflowed it, a few pins were really low on solder.. I added some to the empty pins and it still had the issue. So I added some more solder and really heated the pins all the way across for a good amount of time. This fixed the problem. I think the common issue with Tung-Sol and Chatham solder could be that some tube assemblers just didn’t use enough to hold up over a long aging. The solder could dry out and crack. But it fixed the issue, the other tube was fine. I reflowed the solder on it too and it wasn’t as light as the other which had the problem.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


Was Edvard Munch the seller?…


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Was Edvard Munch the seller?…


I don’t think - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Excell...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## jonathan c

Edvard Munch:


----------



## therremans

jonathan c said:


> Edvard Munch:


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> use vacuum tubes as tree ornaments:
> 
> 
> https://inkstainswithroni.blogspot.com/2013/07/christmas-in-july-2-steampunk-ish.html
> ...


At least they would last much longer than the chinese light bulbs 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I’ll have to show this to my fiancé.


DON'T ☠☠


----------



## Deceneu808 (Dec 28, 2021)

therremans said:


> Chatham 6080 (1959, 1960)
> 
> I received this pair today, I do like these. I think that they offer a detailed high end but without missing the low end like a Thomson 6080 can. They don’t quite have the fullness or same level of separation that a Mullard (or Bendix 6080) offers… but it’s much cheaper and still offers a nice dynamic output. I would recommend them for an affordable output tube that still performs.
> 
> ...


oh these are among my fav powers. I like them MUCH MUCH better than the Mullards.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Edvard Munch:


So this painting was about GE tubes sound


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> tubes, but she may have a variety of services. Testing tubes just isn’t one of them.


Other testing......but  still they  may suck......at it 😇😇


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Magical pairing night.  IBM-branded TungSol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (thanks @Paladin79 !).  With the Atticus in use, pairing the 5998 with a Foton 6N8S is a bit too plump in the bass...kind of annoyingly so.  The Melz is flatter and more neutral in that area bringing about a Goldilocks synergy. Awesome bass with awesome punch and slam, but not overdone.  When using the Chatham 6AS7G I actually prefer the Foton over the Melz as the Chatham doesn't have quite the bass pump of the 5998 and the Foton's emphasis there is a plus.  But man oh man, the 5998 paired with the Melz is doing some serious rockin'!


So Santa @Paladin79 was good to u this year


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> So Santa @Paladin79 was good to u this year


We're being co-Secret Santas this year.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> We're being co-Secret Santas this year.


Behave or I will send you some 28% ABV beer. It is probably equivalent to drinking half a fifth of bourbon.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Behave or I will send you some 28% ABV beer. It is probably equivalent to drinking half a fifth of bourbon.😜


That’s only a tenth…🤷🏻


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> That’s only a tenth…🤷🏻


I just drove ten hours in the rain! Don’t make me come over there and slap you.😜 WAZE decided to have me drive up and down a mountain that was clearly marked dangerous coming back home.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> At least they would last much longer than the chinese light bulbs 😍😍


Don’t use GEs…the tree will catch fire…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just drove ten hours in the rain! Don’t make me come over there and slap you.😜 WAZE decided to have me drive up and down a mountain that was clearly marked dangerous coming back home.


I think you should drive 9 more hours in the rain to go slap him.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think you should drive 9 more hours in the rain to go slap him.


Ok tomorrow, I deserve a drink and trust me I have choices now lol. Just not as many as my son.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Magical pairing night.  IBM-branded TungSol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (thanks @Paladin79 !).  With the Atticus in use, pairing the 5998 with a Foton 6N8S is a bit too plump in the bass...kind of annoyingly so.  The Melz is flatter and more neutral in that area bringing about a Goldilocks synergy. Awesome bass with awesome punch and slam, but not overdone.  When using the Chatham 6AS7G I actually prefer the Foton over the Melz as the Chatham doesn't have quite the bass pump of the 5998 and the Foton's emphasis there is a plus.  But man oh man, the 5998 paired with the Melz is doing some serious rockin'!


I am glad you are starting to see why I run Melz and Tung Sol 5998 and only change out the Melz with those from the 50’s and early 60’s.😜 There is hope for you yet.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am glad you are starting to see why I run Melz and Tung Sol 5998 and only change out the Melz with those from the 50’s and early 60’s.😜 There is hope for you yet.😜


Next test:  GE 5998A….


----------



## therremans

I love GE


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> We're being co-Secret Santas this year.


Nothing like a tube giving Santa, can't complain myself As your same Santa was extremely generous with me as well 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I just drove ten hours in the rain! Don’t make me come over there and slap you.😜 WAZE decided to have me drive up and down a mountain that was clearly marked dangerous coming back home.


Thought you are allowed to use your flying sledge this time of the year 😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> I love GE


Now that's the Christmas spirit


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Don’t use GEs…the tree will catch fire…


No worries as most won't light 😁😁


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Behave or I will send you some 28% ABV beer. It is probably equivalent to drinking half a fifth of bourbon.😜


Or three fingers of North Carolina moonshine.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Next test:  GE 5998A….


Eventually Bill will try it, fall in love with it, and live happily ever after.🤣


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Or three fingers of North Carolina moonshine.


Bill probably makes that in his back yard.


----------



## therremans

Let’s give it a go.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Let’s give it a go.


Is that a 1959 Melz I cannot make out the date?


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Is that a 1959 Melz I cannot make out the date?


Yep


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yep


I suspect you have a modified DarkVoice so you may well be in for a treat.


----------



## therremans (Dec 29, 2021)

Well the Melz does pair well with the 5998 (and I would guess also with a 7236). I like what it does and now appreciate it much more.

(DT-1990 PRO w/ Dekoni elite hybrid pads)

+
It’s a neutral leaning tube that does pull out a lot of detail from the source. It’s not just a midrange monster (5998 helps dial that back and gives it bite) and importantly, it doesn’t color the sound. The little nuisances and notes are well projected and accurate. It has no issue with proper channel separation and does the holographic imaging thing on a good recording. It’s true to the source and I like that.

-
It’s not the most exciting with certain electronic music, as it’s possibly true to the source quality. Also it just isn’t as deep or tight as I’d like.. I still think some other tubes (such as RCA) offer more thick/dreamy rich vocals. Which ties into the Melz not being super warm or mid-heavy and also not coloring the sound too much.

I’m much more of a fan now. The key is how neutral and accurate it is. I understand the price tag now. Next I’ll test it with a TS 7236 and see how that changes things, especially with some different kinds of music.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 29, 2021)

therremans said:


> Well the Melz does pair well with the 5998 (and I would guess also with a 7236). I like what it does and now appreciate it much more.
> 
> (DT-1990 PRO w/ Dekoni elite hybrid pads)
> 
> ...




 To really hear the tubes in question I am using one of my amps just as Bill is along with Focal Utopias. Most every other headphone I tried seemed to suppress the high end, the mids on my system are amazing and the bass is where I want it to be. If you want an in your face midrange get a Melz 1578 from the late seventies or eighties, the mids jump out and grab you but they do not have the overall balance I seek.    I gave Bill a NOS 1956 tube and it took a while to break in so that is always something to bear in mind. I can listen to RCA grey glass war years issue and they rated fairly well in a tube challenge I am conducting but a specific Melz achieved one of the best scores to date, once again though, my amps with HD800 headphones as a standard. It is a sound I seek and I know @sam6550a has a pretty good idea what I am talking about since he has heard a Melz I rate slightly above the perforated plate version.

I should also mention that I tend to rate tubes on 25 criteria so a tube can be stellar in one area but not so much in others.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> To really hear the tubes in question I am using one of my amps just as Bill is along with Focal Utopias. Most every other headphone I tried seemed to suppress the high end, the mids on my system are amazing and the bass is where I want it to be. If you want an in your face midrange get a Melz 1578 from the late seventies or eighties, the mids jump out and grab you but they do not have the overall balance I seek.    I gave Bill a NOS 1956 tube and it took a while to break in so that is always something to bear in mind. I can listen to RCA grey glass war years issue and they rated fairly well in a tube challenge I am conducting but a specific Melz achieved one of the best scores to date, once again though, my amps with HD800 headphones as a standard. It is a sound I seek and I know @sam6550a has a pretty good idea what I am talking about since he has heard a Melz I rate slightly above the perforated plate version.
> 
> I should also mention that I tend to rate tubes on 25 criteria so a tube can be stellar in one area but not so much in others.


The high end is where I like using the DT-1990. The pad swap makes them sound more like semi sealed with an increases in bass, a tighter response/slam. I will eventually get an upgrade from these. Really not sure today what that will be but likely something in the $1,000 range.

I would actually like to try one of those 70s-80s melz just to see how the mid range sounds.. which non perf plate version did you say was one to watch out for? I recall reading but not the specific year or design.

I am also a fan of the RCA VT-231 and I put it in directly after the Melz. Sure the vocals were smooth/buttery and the mid range was more pronounced but I’d argue the sound was more colored and it’s just not as neutral. But we often swap tubes and intentionally expect that sound change as that is apart of it. RCA definitely lacks the same kind of detail and imaging when compared to the Melz.

The 7236 tightened things up a bit but overall did not change the sound that much. Preferred for electronic music.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 29, 2021)

therremans said:


> The high end is where I like using the DT-1990. The pad swap makes them sound more like semi sealed with an increases in bass, a tighter response/slam. I will eventually get an upgrade from these. Really not sure today what that will be but likely something in the $1,000 range.
> 
> I would actually like to try one of those 70s-80s melz just to see how the mid range sounds.. which non perf plate version did you say was one to watch out for? I recall reading but not the specific year or design.
> 
> ...


I have a large collection of Melz so I can loan you one I am sure. Look at all the features of your 1959 Melz then imagine the plates without holes. Those are what I seek, and they are very rare. I just found one more in Russia. Black shiny plates, the dull grey ones are less superior.

Where are you located? I have a sample amp heading to Texas once I do the cabinet work and I could easily throw in a couple Melz.

I have not upgraded my DV yet so I am really not sure how good one of them can sound lol.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I have a large collection of Melz so I can loan you one I am sure. Look at all the features of your 1959 Melz then imagine the plates without holes. Those are what I seek, and they are very rare. I just found one more in Russia. Black shiny plates, the dull grey ones are less superior.
> 
> Where are you located? I have a sample amp heading to Texas once I do the cabinet work and I could easily throw in a couple Melz.
> 
> I have not upgraded my DV yet so I am really not sure how good one of them can sound lol.


Okay, thank you. I can compare it to this one. I now recall you mentioning the non-perforated shiny black plates.

I live in south Denver, zip code 80124.

It’s been awhile since I modded my DV. I would need a stock one to compare the differences today. I still have capacitors in the audio signal path to remove any hum. I need to do the other mod to drop the heater voltage so I can remove them. Which I will get to this winter I think. My DV also has Vishay output caps, upgraded resistors, sockets, jacks, output channel removed, temp controlled cooling fan. Pretty much everything has been swapped out with better quality parts besides the power transformer.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Okay, thank you. I can compare it to this one. I now recall you mentioning the non-perforated shiny black plates.
> 
> I live in south Denver, zip code 80124.
> 
> It’s been awhile since I modded my DV. I would need a stock one to compare the differences today. I still have capacitors in the audio signal path to remove any hum. I need to do the other mod to drop the heater voltage so I can remove them. Which I will get to this winter I think. My DV also has Vishay output caps, upgraded resistors, sockets, jacks, output channel removed, temp controlled cooling fan. Pretty much everything has been swapped out with better quality parts besides the power transformer.


I will get with you when the amp is done, I only ask that you pay to ship it to the next person on the list. I try to keep shipping addresses fairly close and I am building a lighter amp than I first wanted to build in order to keep shipping costs down. No three pounds of copper on this one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Eventually Bill will try it,



I did.



Paladin79 said:


> fall in love with it,



I didn't.



Paladin79 said:


> and live happily ever after.🤣



I'm just happy there are other options.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I will get with you when the amp is done, I only ask that you pay to ship it to the next person on the list. I try to keep shipping addresses fairly close and I am building a lighter amp than I first wanted to build in order to keep shipping costs down. No three pounds of copper on this one.


Will do, I look forward to trying out a different amp. I’ve been wanting to for awhile now. I’ll make sure it gets to the next person safely and insured.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Bill probably makes that in his back yard.


Finally a photo of Bill, thought he looked bit younger though 😍😍


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Finally a photo of Bill, thought he looked bit younger though 😍😍


That’s what Marilyn Manson exposure will do…😳


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Will do, I look forward to trying out a different amp. I’ve been wanting to for awhile now. I’ll make sure it gets to the next person safely and insured.


If there is anyone else on this thread I promised a loaner amp to please speak up soon, @bcowen does not count of course.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Finally a photo of Bill, thought he looked bit younger though 😍😍


FWIW, I looked like this until I started the new job 9 months ago.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If there is anyone else on this thread I promised a loaner amp to please speak up soon, @bcowen does not count of course.


Which is because you're making me one to keep, right?  Just want to be sure we're on the same page here.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Which is because you're making me one to keep, right?  Just want to be sure we're on the same page here.


You have one, a second one would overwhelm you with sonic goodness.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have one, a second one would overwhelm you with sonic goodness.😜


There's no such thing as too much overwhelming.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> FWIW, I looked like this until I started the new job 9 months ago.


Overalls + plaid flannel shirt (from Cintas?) are the work uniform…?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You have one, a second one would overwhelm you with sonic goodness.😜


Not quite…because the first is sideways and the second is normal, a diagonal is formed. Bcowen would have 1.414 amp equivalents 🤪


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not quite…because the first is sideways and the second is normal, a diagonal is formed. Bcowen would have 1.414 amp equivalents 🤪


Quit doing math stuff.  It harshes my mellow.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Overalls + plaid flannel shirt (from Cintas?) are the work uniform…?


We use Aramark.  Cintas didn't have a plaid we liked.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Which is because you're making me one to keep, right?  Just want to be sure we're on the same page here.


The advantage of sideways amp is that it comes in pairs (L+R) so you definitely you have the right to a 2nd 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

And HAPPY NEW YEAR to all my tube's collectors colleagues


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> The advantage of sideways amp is that it comes in pairs (L+R) so you definitely you have the right to a 2nd 😁


Only if the second is sideways (“laterally challenged”)…


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Only if the second is sideways (“laterally challenged”)…


I am giving Bill the chance to visit a couple of them near DC, that is practically the same thing 🤣

I am testing new cabinet configurations:




I want to use different woods for corner posts that will also allow a bit more cooling.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am giving Bill the chance to visit a couple of them near DC, that is practically the same thing 🤣
> 
> I am testing new cabinet configurations:
> 
> ...


Geeez.  No royalties involved either.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> The advantage of sideways amp is that it comes in pairs (L+R) so you definitely you have the right to a 2nd 😁


I like the way you think.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Geeez.  No royalties involved either.


Maybe one day lol, but that wood is so thin, I like to use 3/4 inch boards and it is much harder to dove tail.  My final product after detail work should be pretty sharp. Before if I made the slightest mistake on cutting the corner angles I would have to start all over. Now I can replace one side in case I need to make adjustments.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I like the way you think.


Only one gift amp per person,  and the final two recipients are not on Head Fi.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe one day lol, but that wood is so thin, I like to use 3/4 inch boards and it is much harder to dove tail.  My final product after detail work should be pretty sharp. Before if I made the slightest mistake on cutting the corner angles I would have to start all over. Now I can replace one side in case I need to make adjustments.


So then make an outer sleeve of thin tiger maple with dovetailed corners, and an inner sleeve of thicker maple (tiger not required) and glue them together.  Sheeez.  Do I have to do _everything_?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Only one gift amp per person,  and the final two recipients are not on Head Fi.


You mean I've been upgraded to a "person"?  Cool!  Do I get a certificate of authenticity in the mail or anything?  😛


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I am giving Bill the chance to visit a couple of them near DC, that is practically the same thing 🤣
> 
> I am testing new cabinet configurations:
> 
> ...


Japanese dovetails?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Japanese dovetails?



OMG no.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Japanese dovetails?



I like this one better.  Looks so easy even a caveman could do it.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I like this one better.  Looks so easy even a caveman could do it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2022)




----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2022)

This is just a mock up but I want no joins  showing. Now imagine tiger maple with dark one inch corner posts and maybe a copper top.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Geeez.  No royalties involved either.


…but you would accept ‘serfties’ though, right?…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is just a mock up but I want no joins  showing. Now imagine tiger maple with dark one inch corner posts and maybe a copper top.


Actually, it might be even cooler with the corner posts made of tiger maple too, just stained to be darker than the sides.  Not that I have an opinion or anything.


----------



## bcowen

And now a public service announcement from Tidal:





I just can't express in words how pleased I am that I was able to buy the band 1/4 of a Starbucks to share between them.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And now a public service announcement from Tidal:
> 
> 
> 
> I just can't express in words how pleased I am that I was able to buy the band 1/4 of a Starbucks to share between them.


Was that $2 for _all _28 streams 😂…?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually, it might be even cooler with the corner posts made of tiger maple too, just stained to be darker than the sides.  Not that I have an opinion or anything.


Built one and I will tell you how I like it lol. I prefer natural dark wood.😜


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Actually, it might be even cooler with the corner posts made of tiger maple too, just stained to be darker than the sides.  Not that I have an opinion or anything.


Could it be…an interesting idea…😮…?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> And now a public service announcement from Tidal:
> 
> 
> 
> I just can't express in words how pleased I am that I was able to buy the band 1/4 of a Starbucks to share between them.


You sir, are truly a patron of the arts!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Was that $2 for _all _28 streams 😂…?


I think so.  Maybe I should just put a playlist on rotating repeat for about a week straight and see what that does.    

But MM should be happy....looks like the Pretenders got zip...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think so.  Maybe I should just put a playlist on rotating repeat for about a week straight and see what that does.
> 
> But MM should be happy....looks like the Pretenders got zip...


…with a pretend bank account…🏦☁️☁️☁️


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> This is just a mock up but I want no joins  showing. Now imagine tiger maple with dark one inch corner posts and maybe a copper top.


Doesn't Mrs paladin do ceramic work or something? Why not some cool sculpted obelisky corners


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Doesn't Mrs paladin do ceramic work or something? Why not some cool sculpted obelisky corners


Attaching them would be difficult.😜 Her work is more like this.


----------



## jonathan c

Ceramic bases for 6SN7s etc?…


----------



## Mr Trev

I would have figured Mrs paladin may have been put to work on volume knobs, cable risers, etc. by now


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I would have figured Mrs paladin may have been put to work on volume knobs, cable risers, etc. by now


She_ should_ be making dust covers (she knows how to sew too) to go over headphones on a stand.  You know, something like this, except different.


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 1, 2022)

bcowen said:


> She_ should_ be making dust covers (she knows how to sew too) to go over headphones on a stand.  You know, something like this, except different.


Headphone cozies… of course!

<edit> on second thought, I'll stick to the good ol Crown Royal bag


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 1, 2022)

bcowen said:


> She_ should_ be making dust covers (she knows how to sew too) to go over headphones on a stand.  You know, something like this, except different.


We all know that you use one of these, logo and all, to cover hide the GE tubes in your h/p/a tube sockets…..trying to trick us….faint resemblance to USAF rectifier tube with ‘antennae’….


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> We all know that you use one of these, logo and all, to cover hide the GE tubes in your h/p/a tube sockets…


Oh just great.  You guys have hacked my indoor cameras _again_?  I'm firing my IT guy.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh just great.  You guys have hacked my indoor cameras _again_?  I'm firing my IT guy.


With the password: GESUCKS, _you_ expected cyber invincibility?


----------



## bcowen

Today's roll.  First a 1959 Svetlana 6H5C (thanks @Paladin79 ) replaced the TS 5998.  With the Melz still in place, its leaner nature in the upper and mid bass was not the best partnership.  The Svet doesn't have that bone-crunching slam and punch of the 5998, but the rest of the spectrum is quite nice.  So if the Svet/Melz combo was too lean, and the 5998/Foton combo was too rich.....could it be?  Yes, comrades!  The Svet paired with a '54 Foton 6N8S is a very enjoyable combo.  The Foton adds that little bass bump that helps fill in what the Svet misses.  Now this is the only 1950's Svet I have...others in the stash are all late '60's or even later. While this '50's version sure sounds nice I haven't directly compared it to the later ones, but based on what I remember of their sound the '59 is a step up.  Anyway, the 5998 / Melz combo doesn't need to live in fear of being eclipsed as it's still better than the Svet/Foton, but for a (comparatively) cheap pair of tubes they need make no excuses.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> With the password: GESUCKS, _you_ expected cyber invincibility?


That would have been too predictable, but I guess I still outsmarted myself as I thought nobody would ever guess GEReigns! coming from me...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Anyway, the 5998 / Melz combo doesn't need to live in fear of being eclipsed as it's still better than the Svet/Foton, but for a (comparatively) *cheap *pair of tubes they need make no excuses.


Fotons were cheap at acquisition by the bcowen monopsony. In a bcowen monopoly, Fotons are anything but cheap…😳😫😭…


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Today's roll.  First a 1959 Svetlana 6H5C (thanks @Paladin79 ) replaced the TS 5998.  With the Melz still in place, its leaner nature in the upper and mid bass was not the best partnership.  The Svet doesn't have that bone-crunching slam and punch of the 5998, but the rest of the spectrum is quite nice.  So if the Svet/Melz combo was too lean, and the 5998/Foton combo was too rich.....could it be?  Yes, comrades!  The Svet paired with a '54 Foton 6N8S is a very enjoyable combo.  The Foton adds that little bass bump that helps fill in what the Svet misses.  Now this is the only 1950's Svet I have...others in the stash are all late '60's or even later. While this '50's version sure sounds nice I haven't directly compared it to the later ones, but based on what I remember of their sound the '59 is a step up.  Anyway, the 5998 / Melz combo doesn't need to live in fear of being eclipsed as it's still better than the Svet/Foton, but for a (comparatively) cheap pair of tubes they need make no excuses.


Just like going to the doctor, sometimes a second opinion is in order.😜 Fotons are lacking in too many elements to make them a well rounded tube.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Just like going to the doctor, sometimes a second opinion is in order.😜 Fotons are lacking in too many elements to make them a well rounded tube.


Given that bcowen owns them all, I’ll never know…..Thanks, bcowen!! 🥲


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Given that bcowen owns them all, I’ll never know…..Thanks, bcowen!! 🥲


I own them but they are OK tubes I include with amps since they are plentiful along with Svetlana power tubes. Good bang for the buck but I prefer specific Melz 1578 types with 5998’s.😜


----------



## therremans

I’ve had this saved for awhile. The seller may have ribbed plates left. Price is decent..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-VINTAGE...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I own them but they are OK tubes I include with amps since they are plentiful along with Svetlana power tubes. Good bang for the buck but I prefer specific Melz 1578 types with 5998’s.😜


Slightly unrelated: the 1963 Melz 6N8S + RFT ECC81 (foil getter) are _divine_ together in Linear Tube Audio MZ3 🥲…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am giving Bill the chance to visit a couple of them near DC, that is practically the same thing 🤣
> 
> I am testing new cabinet configurations:
> 
> ...


Seems a new 2022 look is in the work, got a strange feeling though about a secret  hardware tweak or upgrade inside the box as well labeled as Incubus + 😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I like the way you think.


Knowing about a tube gift sent your way is probably meant to drop your right for your rightful 2nd one, hope no signatures you did beside the delivery papers 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jan 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Only one gift amp per person,  and the final two recipients are not on Head Fi.


Do I qualify if I quit effective immediate ?🥰🥰🥰🥰
Christmas spirit and all "The season for giving" 😍😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> So then make an outer sleeve of thin tiger maple with dovetailed corners, and an inner sleeve of thicker maple (tiger not required) and glue them together.  Sheeez.  Do I have to do _everything_?


We will do the testing part


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Attaching them would be difficult.😜 Her work is more like this.


Is that Mrs. @Paladin79 shed production lineup ??


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Headphone cozies… of course!
> 
> <edit> on second thought, I'll stick to the good ol Crown Royal bag


YES  that 😍😍😍


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Fotons were cheap at acquisition by the bcowen monopsony. In a bcowen monopoly, Fotons are anything but cheap…😳😫😭…


Oh please.  They're still available.  And still cheap.  

I have obviously failed at the mission.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just like going to the doctor, sometimes a second opinion is in order.😜 Fotons are lacking in too many elements to make them a well rounded tube.


Perhaps, but for a sub-$10 tube they are round enough.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Is that Mrs. @Paladin79 shed production lineup ??


Some of them, she has been making large bowls that went out as Xmas presents. The picture of the cups on the cutting board is at my son's place, she made him mescal cups.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Perhaps, but for a sub-$10 tube they are round enough.


I cannot think of a better tube for the money than the Foton ribbed plate and they certainly finished above more expensive tubes in testing friends and I conducted, not in the top 52 but not at the bottom of 1500 types we tried. The scores varied a lot in the top and bottom tiers, a whole lot of them came out in the middle with similar points. Most all tubes have a couple good points and a few checked nearly all the top boxes and a few received a lot less checks on a four point system for 25 criteria. We are using Tung Sol 5998's as the power tubes in four amps and HD 800 headphones, I do get similar scores with my home setup and Focal Utopias.  My home amp is a slightly different iteration of the four test amps, they are very close to what @bcowen has since I gave him one fairly early. I try to rely on the accuracy of large groups rather than just my own opinion. Early on a sent a solid plate Melz 1578 to friends on Head Fi to see if they were getting anywhere near the same impression that friends and I got. The results were very positive but then again most of those folks were using one of my amps with various headphones and not all had the 5998 Tung Sol. I gifted Bill a 1956 Melz 1578 perforated plate that had few hours on it and it took a while to settle in but in all honesty I do not recall if I re-soldered the pins, but knew he could handle that if need be.  For a while I really liked the 63's, then I heard a 62 and a 61 and earlier and it got better and better.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Do I qualify if I quit effective immediate ?🥰🥰🥰🥰
> Christmas spirit and all "The season for giving" 😍😍😍😍


Na, I am trying to move on to other things for a while and no matter what I rely on a lot of parts and tubes the Russian military used, it is now taking months to get a few key items.
One of the people I am gifting is my son, the other is a neighbor of his who has always treated me well when I visited that part of Virginia. This last time he treated me to beer that sells for $240 to $1,000 a bottle and gave me some of his own brew that is even better. Cost to make that beer was $1,000 for ingredients alone. 28% alcohol and more like a cognac than beer. He also treated me to anything I wanted from his top shelf of fine bourbons and ryes. The man is an audiophile and an EE and will most likely appreciate my design.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Slightly unrelated: the 1963 Melz 6N8S + RFT ECC81 (foil getter) are _divine_ together in Linear Tube Audio MZ3 🥲…


I was looking around for a couple ECC81's for a friend so I am following your advice and getting him a couple of the RFT's for a preamp he owns.


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, first of all, happy new year to all colleagues and many tubes rolling in 2022!

Has anyone been able to compare the GEC 6as7g with GEC CV4079 on Darkvoice and could you say the result?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Na, I am trying to move on to other things for a while and no matter what I rely on a lot of parts and tubes the Russian military used, it is now taking months to get a few key items.
> One of the people I am gifting is my son, the other is a neighbor of his who has always treated me well when I visited that part of Virginia. This last time he treated me to beer that sells for $240 to $1,000 a bottle and gave me some of his own brew that is even better. Cost to make that beer was $1,000 for ingredients alone. 28% alcohol and more like a cognac than beer. He also treated me to anything I wanted from his top shelf of fine bourbons and ryes. The man is an audiophile and an EE and will most likely appreciate my design.


A deserving recipients indeed🙂🙂


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I cannot think of a better tube for the money than the Foton ribbed plate and they certainly finished above more expensive tubes in testing friends and I conducted, not in the top 52 but not at the bottom of 1500 types we tried. The scores varied a lot in the top and bottom tiers, a whole lot of them came out in the middle with similar points. Most all tubes have a couple good points and a few checked nearly all the top boxes and a few received a lot less checks on a four point system for 25 criteria. We are using Tung Sol 5998's as the power tubes in four amps and HD 800 headphones, I do get similar scores with my home setup and Focal Utopias.  My home amp is a slightly different iteration of the four test amps, they are very close to what @bcowen has since I gave him one fairly early. I try to rely on the accuracy of large groups rather than just my own opinion. Early on a sent a solid plate Melz 1578 to friends on Head Fi to see if they were getting anywhere near the same impression that friends and I got. The results were very positive but then again most of those folks were using one of my amps with various headphones and not all had the 5998 Tung Sol. I gifted Bill a 1956 Melz 1578 perforated plate that had few hours on it and it took a while to settle in but in all honesty I do not recall if I re-soldered the pins, but knew he could handle that if need be.  For a while I really liked the 63's, then I heard a 62 and a 61 and earlier and it got better and better.


Do you have separate scoring charts for different power tubes? What I love about tubes is the ability to create combinations to bring out the best of the each tube. I agree that the 5998 works with most and would be among my first choice. But I do have some drivers that I prefer with other output tubes, the Foton being a great example. I thought that the Foton sounded better with a slotted graphite Bendix 6080 or Chatham 6AS7G.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Do you have separate scoring charts for different power tubes? What I love about tubes is the ability to create combinations to bring out the best of the each tube. I agree that the 5998 works with most and would be among my first choice. But I do have some drivers that I prefer with other output tubes, the Foton being a great example. I thought that the Foton sounded better with a slotted graphite Bendix 6080 or Chatham 6AS7G.


We do not have charts on power tubes yet but hope to do a blind listen on them one day, it should be much easier than finding the 6sn7's. Because my amp supports those as well it would be easy enough to change over and run power tubes with a series of 6sn7's once we accumulate enough  power tubes. Covid is once again our biggest issue and no matter what plans I try to make I have to be sure folks are safe.


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> Do you have separate scoring charts for different power tubes? What I love about tubes is the ability to create combinations to bring out the best of the each tube. I agree that the 5998 works with most and would be among my first choice. But I do have some drivers that I prefer with other output tubes, the Foton being a great example. I thought that the Foton sounded better with a slotted graphite Bendix 6080 or Chatham 6AS7G.



Where to buy 5998, it does not seems to available anyway. I have Foton but never used it much, liking KEN-RAD VT231 with Tung-Sol 6080 for it's awesome tight bass with HD800.


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> Where to buy 5998, it does not seems to available anyway. I have Foton but never used it much, liking KEN-RAD VT231 with Tung-Sol 6080 for it's awesome tight bass with HD800.


Which foton year do you have? Finding a good testing 5998 can be found on eBay but it just takes time. You’re likely going to pay $125+ even then. I would avoid the Taiwan and some other Asian sellers. I’ve personally found their listings to be misleading. Also, not good for a return.


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> Which foton year do you have? Finding a good testing 5998 can be found on eBay but it just takes time. You’re likely going to pay $125+ even then. I would avoid the Taiwan and some other Asian sellers. I’ve personally found their listings to be misleading. Also, not good for a return.



6N8S Foton Date 09-1957 USSR NOS, is this any good?
I am living in Dubai, retrun is kind of always problem for me.


----------



## therremans (Jan 2, 2022)

musicinmymind said:


> 6N8S Foton Date 09-1957 USSR NOS, is this any good?
> I am living in Dubai, retrun is kind of always problem for me.


@bcowen would know when the cutoff was, I think it was around 57-59’. 51-56’ But just go after the ones with ribbed plates, they will all be from the 50s.


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> 6N8S Foton Date 09-1957 USSR NOS, is this any good?
> I am living in Dubai, retrun is kind of always problem for me.


Yes, quite good.  The ribbed plate versions went from at least 1951 through part of 1956.  I have never (personally) seen a Foton dated earlier than 1951 (but they could exist), and some '56's have ribbed plates and some don't which would indicate the plates were changed sometime during that year.  The ribbed plate versions are best, but any of the non-ribbed '56's through 1959's are very close and still sound very good.  Seems things changed starting in 1960, as the 60's (and later) versions just don't sound as good to my ears.


----------



## therremans

Tung-Sol 7236 - NIB - these don’t pop up that often.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Tung-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 3, 2022)

This is an example of using gravity to increase electron flow. Bill likes sideways, why not try one upside down?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> This is an example of using gravity to increase electron flow. Bill likes sideways, why not try one upside down?


…and the heat dissipation?…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …and the heat dissipation?…


Plenty of air flow and I only had the amp on this position for less than 20 minutes. But why?😜


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> …and the heat dissipation?…


Or the effect on the vacuum tube glass to metal seals, most are rated seal down to 90 degrees from vertical.  Inverted does not seem to be a viable option if you desire tube longevity.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Or the effect on the vacuum tube glass to metal seals, most are rated seal down to 90 degrees from vertical.  Inverted does not seem to be a viable option if you desire tube longevity.


It was short term but why flip the amp?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is an example of using gravity to increase electron flow. Bill likes sideways, why not try one upside down?


I just hope you resoldered the pins on those first or the electrons might escape though any pinholes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I just hope you resoldered the pins on those first or the electrons might escape though any pinholes.


I have Bill the answer to why it was upside down so hopefully he does not show up and say he figured it out himself.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have Bill the answer to why it was upside down so hopefully he does not show up and say he figured it out himself.😜


Yeah, but inside the amp is still one of the last places I'd be looking for the missing volume knobs.  But that's just me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but inside the amp is still one of the last places I'd be looking for the missing volume knobs.  But that's just me.


Those are accounted for, one is in New York and Finnegan has the other one, somewhere in the house, maybe.😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are accounted for, one is in New York and Finnegan has the other one, somewhere in the house, maybe.😺


You mean Finnegan batted one of them all the way to New York?  Wow.  Macho, macho cat....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean Finnegan batted one of them all the way to New York?  Wow.  Macho, macho cat....


LMAO!!


----------



## jonathan c

Then there is the relaxed approach, endorsed by bcowen…


----------



## Paladin79

Finnegan relaxed, provided you don’t rub his belly, then recovering your hand and are are not easy.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan relaxed, provided you don’t rub his belly, then recovering your hand and are are not easy.😜


----------



## Paladin79

I flipped the amp in order to trouble shoot a noise issue. This was the easiest way to go about it. Knobs are back in place and I am listening with cheap HifiMan headphones till I resolve the issues.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I flipped the amp in order to trouble shoot a noise issue. This was the easiest way to go about it. Knobs are back in place and I am listening with cheap HifiMan headphones till I resolve the issues.


Welcome home.  And they really sent it minus a knob? ..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Welcome home.  And they really sent it minus a knob? ..


Yeah but they found it and are sending it to me.😜 They were not cheap and I forget where I bought them.


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080wa-cha...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 5, 2022)

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080wa-cha...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


That has to be the most face-palmingly vague description I've read

You know what tested strong on _my_ precision tester?

…maybe I shouldn't go there, this is a family friendly website


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> That has to be the most face-palmingly vague description I've read
> 
> You know what tested strong on _my_ precision tester?
> 
> …maybe I shouldn't go there, this is a family friendly website


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> That has to be the most face-palmingly vague description I've read


Lol.  Not exactly - the seller saying he's selling an untested tube/does not have a tube tester to even give you a magic-8 ball result is the most vague you'll get.  LOL.

I always translate that kind of speak to "strong" meaning the tube landed somewhere in the green zone, hopefully at least towards the middle of it.   

Nerd moment, but yeah, those ebay descriptions feel like a well known star trek episode.  LOL :


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> Lol.  Not exactly - the seller saying he's selling an untested tube/does not have a tube tester to even give you a magic-8 ball result is the most vague you'll get.  LOL.
> 
> I always translate that kind of speak to "strong" meaning the tube landed somewhere in the green zone, hopefully at least towards the middle of it.
> 
> Nerd moment, but yeah, those ebay descriptions feel like a well known star trek episode.  LOL :


I suppose "It works in my amp… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" could be considered more vague too


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> I suppose "It works in my amp… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" could be considered more vague too


lol...last time I checked...it was still glowing... 🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> lol...last time I checked...it was still glowing... 🤣


Man, this is a tough crowd.  I think some of the seller's text got chopped off somehow....here's what it stated originally:


selling one nice chatham 6080wa tube tested strong on my precision tester that was last calibrated when it came off the assembly line in 1964.  I think it's an emission-only tester, but there was no manual when I got it so I kind of just guess where to turn the knob thingies.  If for some reason the tube doesn't work when you get it, I don't accept returns and don't respond to messages but I _do_ promise I'll feel sorry for you.  Buy with confidence!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Man, this is a tough crowd.  I think some of the seller's text got chopped off somehow....here's what it stated originally:
> 
> ​
> selling one nice chatham 6080wa tube tested strong on my precision tester that was last calibrated when it came off the assembly line in 1964.  I think it's an emission-only tester, but there was no manual when I got it so I kind of just guess where to turn the knob thingies.  If for some reason the tube doesn't work when you get it, I don't accept returns and don't respond to messages but I _do_ promise I'll feel sorry for you.  Buy with confidence!


HAH!!


----------



## bcowen

Geeeez.  Not all that bad a price for an RCA if it's truly NOS, but it ain't no Chatham.


----------



## therremans

Just in. Some NOS JAN metal can tubes direct from Germany. (Ironic.. )

Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6C5 VT-65 1943
Sylvania JAN-CHS-6J5 1945

I let these burn in for quite awhile. The Sylvania are a little more versatile but I prefer the KenRad 6C5’s for what these do.. jazz tubes man. Both offer a very mellow sound. The key for me was using my Sennheiser HD-6XX and toss in a Mullard 6080 for the soundstage and detail. Nice little combo going on for jazz . I did not care for them with my Beyers, like at all.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Just in. Some NOS JAN metal can tubes direct from Germany. (Ironic.. )
> 
> Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6C5 VT-65 1943
> Sylvania JAN-CHS-6J5 1945
> ...



There are some surprisingly good tube vendors from Germany with really nice inventory - great pricing.  The only downside of course is shipping.  

Are your Beyers good with other tube combos on the DV?   I used to have a DT770 but I always preferred the 6XX + DV hands down.   The 770 did not last long at all in my ownership.  Lol.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> There are some surprisingly good tube vendors from Germany with really nice inventory - great pricing.  The only downside of course is shipping.
> 
> Are your Beyers good with other tube combos on the DV?   I used to have a DT770 but I always preferred the 6XX + DV hands down.   The 770 did not last long at all in my ownership.  Lol.


Yeah, the 1990s are my regular go to. I still have to pull out the 6XX for certain tubes that just don’t sound that great on the 1990s.. but that’s pretty rare. I use the 1990s 90% of the time. The pad swap did change the sound of the 1990s as well.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yeah, the 1990s are my regular go to. I still have to pull out the 6XX for certain tubes that just don’t sound that great on the 1990s.. but that’s pretty rare. I use the 1990s 90% of the time. The pad swap did change the sound of the 1990s as well.



As I try to go into deeper waters with headphones...im finding that "pad rolling" is just as big of a deal as tube rolling/opamp rolling/power supply rolling.    lol.   

Speaking of which - you're a good person to ask this - every now and then, i hear inklings of people "fuse rolling".  To help increase that transparency/details in an amp, probably to the same degree as using "higher end" power cables.   Anyone here ever hear of this, and have they done that to the darkvoice or other amps?  Or is this really truely into the snake oil realm?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> As I try to go into deeper waters with headphones...im finding that "pad rolling" is just as big of a deal as tube rolling/opamp rolling/power supply rolling.    lol.
> 
> Speaking of which - you're a good person to ask this - every now and then, i hear inklings of people "fuse rolling".  To help increase that transparency/details in an amp, probably to the same degree as using "higher end" power cables.   Anyone here ever hear of this, and have they done that to the darkvoice or other amps?  Or is this really truely into the snake oil realm?


It may be snake oil, but it's audible.  That's all I'm gonna say.


----------



## therremans (Jan 12, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> As I try to go into deeper waters with headphones...im finding that "pad rolling" is just as big of a deal as tube rolling/opamp rolling/power supply rolling.    lol.
> 
> Speaking of which - you're a good person to ask this - every now and then, i hear inklings of people "fuse rolling".  To help increase that transparency/details in an amp, probably to the same degree as using "higher end" power cables.   Anyone here ever hear of this, and have they done that to the darkvoice or other amps?  Or is this really truely into the snake oil realm?


It really is and I’d tie it into headphones options itself. Which really makes you want to keep all tubes you have bought since it can really change everything. Just note what combos worked well.

I did purchase an aftermarket fuse. I couldn’t tell you if it improved the sound as I did other mods at the time.. At least I don’t recall that I could notice a difference. I could hear a more audible difference when upgrading headphone (and maybe power) cables. Fuses are partially or mostly snake oil as some are hundreds of dollars. However, I can’t say I’ve tried them haha. I found mine on Aliexpress for around $10.



Anything is better than the stock penny fuse it came with.

Also, my work is buying me a nice hefty battery backup unit for my computer that’s like $1,000…May have to use it as a power source for my amp to keep it from going bad.. from no use. You know how that’s bad for batteries.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> It may be snake oil, but it's audible.  That's all I'm gonna say.



@bcowen don't be so modest.  im not going to judge if you have diamond encrusted unobtanium metal type fuse in your incubus.  an upgrade, is an upgrade!    i've heard its audible.   but the claims that some people make on a fuse costing hundreds...thousand dollars....its incredulous.  



therremans said:


> I did purchase an aftermarket fuse. I couldn’t tell you if it improved the sound as I did other mods at the time.. At least I don’t recall that I could notice a difference. I could hear a more audible difference when upgrading headphone (and maybe power) cables. It’s partially snake oil as some are hundreds of dollars. I found mine on Aliexpress for probably around $10..
> 
> Anything is better than the stock penny fuse it came with.



im certain for any given component, there is some level of improvement to be made.   i've heard the principle of all current going through the fuse, so even this tiny part plays a pretty significant role obviously.   but when i see the words "quantum" thrown around product descriptions and names and with astronomical prices, that's when it really gets me to how they can really justify that kind of pricing.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @bcowenim certain for any given component, there is some level of improvement to be made.   i've heard the principle of all current going through the fuse, so even this tiny part plays a pretty significant role obviously.   but when i see the words "quantum" thrown around product descriptions and names and with astronomical prices, that's when it really gets me to how they can really justify that kind of pricing.


Ahh yes I am 100% sure those fuse makers have PhD’s in quantum physics and probably teach on the side. Someone probably came to the conclusion that it would be a brilliant snake oil product, after the  expensive power cables ran it’s course. Diminishing returns has to be really high with fuse upgrades..


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Ahh yes I am 100% sure those fuse makers have PhD’s in quantum physics and probably teach on the side. Someone probably came to the conclusion that it would be a brilliant snake oil product, after the  expensive power cables ran it’s course. Diminishing returns has to be really high with fuse upgrades..


Is that @Paladin79 ’s Finnegan in profile…?…casually strolling through the lab…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> There are some surprisingly good tube vendors from Germany with really nice inventory - great pricing.  The only downside of course is shipping.
> 
> Are your Beyers good with other tube combos on the DV?   I used to he a DT770 but I always preferred the 6XX + DV hands down.   The 770 did not last long at all in my ownership.  Lol.


The 770 is a closed back, you need to try the 880, 990, 1990 600 ohm versions on the DV


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It may be snake oil, but it's audible.  That's all I'm gonna say.


Aren't we all in the snake oil business 😁😁


----------



## bcowen (Jan 12, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen don't be so modest.  im not going to judge if you have diamond encrusted unobtanium metal type fuse in your incubus.  an upgrade, is an upgrade!    i've heard its audible.   but the claims that some people make on a fuse costing hundreds...thousand dollars....its incredulous.


Diamond encrusting is so 1990's.  Mine have solid gold end caps and anti-matter acting as the fuse portion.  

Seriously, a number of years ago PartsConnexion had the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses on sale for $10 each. I figured for $10 it was worth a try just to see if all the hoopla had any merit or was pure wishful thinking.  Well, I did hear a difference, and it was for the better. Monumental?  No.  Could I correctly identify it versus the stock fuse in a blind test?  Yes, I think so. "Think" being the operative word here because 1) I didn't try a blind test, and 2) the difference was not significant enough to have 100% confidence that I could. But for $10, it was a worthwhile upgrade...to me.  So if the $10 fuse sounded better, how much more better would a $100 fuse sound? So I tried a Synergistic Research Black fuse (their top quantum-wallet emptying offering at the time),  Was it better than the $10 Hi-Fi Tuning fuse?  Yes, to about the same degree that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse was over the stock fuse. More audible, I'd say.  But with everything else being equal, the expenditure on the HiFi Tuning fuse was "little bang, little buck" while the SR was "little bigger bang, huge buck."  

Fast forward to now, and the Incubus has the stock fuse that came in it. So does my Jota amp, Alana preamp, and all the other components I cherish.  Why?  None of these "boutique" fuses that I've seen carry any sort of UL, CE, CSA, or any other 3rd party test agency listings or approvals. Who makes these things?  What manufacturing procedures are in place, what kind of QC routines and documentation are employed, what oversight exists? Is that pricey 1 amp boutique fuse going to blow at slightly over 1 amp, or will it hang on for dear life to 10 amps while everything else is melting around it? The sonic gain was not significant enough to my ears to put my prized (and in some cases irreplaceable) components at risk.  Maybe risk my house and/or life as well.  There _are_ limits to my sonic madness, and even limits to my multitudes of other questionable practices (as hard as that may be to believe). Now if you'll excuse me I have to finish wiring this 211 tube into the Incubus to see how it sounds. 😂

Note that this is not intended as a dismissal or derision of boutique fuses, it's just my opinion and what I'm comfortable with personally.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Diamond encrusting is so 1990's.  Mine have solid gold end caps and anti-matter acting as the fuse portion.
> 
> Seriously, a number of years ago PartsConnexion had the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses on sale for $10 each. I figured for $10 it was worth a try just to see if all the hoopla had any merit or was pure wishful thinking.  Well, I did hear a difference, and it was for the better. Monumental?  No.  Could I correctly identify it versus the stock fuse in a blind test?  Yes, I think so. "Think" being the operative word here because 1) I didn't try a blind test, and 2) the difference was not significant enough to have 100% confidence that I could. But for $10, it was a worthwhile upgrade...to me.  So if the $10 fuse sounded better, how much more better would a $100 fuse sound? So I tried a Synergistic Research Black fuse (their top quantum-wallet emptying offering at the time),  Was it better than the $10 Hi-Fi Tuning fuse?  Yes, to about the same degree that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse was over the stock fuse. More audible, I'd say.  But with everything else being equal, the expenditure on the HiFi Tuning fuse was "little bang, little buck" while the SR was "little bigger bang, huge buck."
> 
> ...


Agree with the approach as at some point the cost and trials are not worth the difference, tube swapping makes lots 0f sense instead but sure being a hobby we are all tempted to meddle with the components to our satisfaction. 😎😎


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Diamond encrusting is so 1990's.  Mine have solid gold end caps…


…so do Mike Tyson’s……


----------



## therremans

well.. it’s time for a new fuse.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Diamond encrusting is so 1990's.  Mine have solid gold end caps and anti-matter acting as the fuse portion.


Yes diamonds is so 90's much like the music i like which my kid affectionally refers to as "oldies".   Sigh.   And just solid gold?  I was expecting something like vibranium or whatever crap marvel heroes use in their tech.  lol.   



bcowen said:


> Seriously, a number of years ago PartsConnexion had the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses on sale for $10 each. I figured for $10 it was worth a try just to see if all the hoopla had any merit or was pure wishful thinking.  Well, I did hear a difference, and it was for the better. Monumental?  No.


However, for pennies on the dollar at least you have proof of concept that it's not a snake oil concept.   It's a low risk, high reward scenario.  You're able experiment and get way more out of it just with the knowledge alone, and the sonic improvement is icing, because you ended up in the plus side.  I mean this is in part the spirit of doing DIY.  



bcowen said:


> I tried a Synergistic Research Black fuse (their top quantum-wallet emptying offering at the time),  Was it better than the $10 Hi-Fi Tuning fuse?  Yes, to about the same degree that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse was over the stock fuse. More audible, I'd say.  But with everything else being equal, the expenditure on the HiFi Tuning fuse was "little bang, little buck" while the SR was "little bigger bang, huge buck."



Same - the whole quantum fuses thing started out with Synergistic Research stuff.   I hate their marketing scam of anything related to Quantum BS, because that seems so snake oil like.  Getting pass that, their fuses do make a noticeable difference.  I listened to a friend's Ragnarok 2 with an SR Orange Fuse and Stock, and it does make a difference.   I'll give it that.  



bcowen said:


> Fast forward to now, and the Incubus has the stock fuse that came in it. So does my Jota amp, Alana preamp, and all the other components I cherish.  Why?  None of these "boutique" fuses that I've seen carry any sort of UL, CE, CSA, or any other 3rd party test agency listings or approvals. Who makes these things?  What manufacturing procedures are in place, what kind of QC routines and documentation are employed, what oversight exists? Is that pricey 1 amp boutique fuse going to blow at slightly over 1 amp, or will it hang on for dear life to 10 amps while everything else is melting around it? The sonic gain was not significant enough to my ears to put my prized (and in some cases irreplaceable) components at risk.  Maybe risk my house and/or life as well.  There _are_ limits to my sonic madness, and even limits to my multitudes of other questionable practices (as hard as that may be to believe). Now if you'll excuse me I have to finish wiring this 211 tube into the Incubus to see how it sounds. 😂


Provided you put in the right fuse, it should theoretically just kill the fuse, save your amp?    But yeah, fiery death is not for me nor my equipment.   Though we all survived the DV Amp, and that used to have a reputation for flaming out to shoddy QC.  But I just kind of proved your point didn't I?  

I guess moral of the story, there is something to fuse rolling.   It does improve sound.  But by how much and at what cost is debatable.  I took issue when I came across another fuse brand/line -- Quantum Science Audio Fuses.   I am all understanding on a fuse being 150, even 200 ish.  I mean that's no different than rolling opamps.   But charging you near 3k for a fuse and claiming 70%-ish improvement in sound.  This kind of thing belongs in a Ripley's Believe it or not episode.

@therremans you said its time for a new fuse.  get this one and let us know how it sounds!


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Yes diamonds is so 90's much like the music i like which my kid affectionally refers to as "oldies".   Sigh.   And just solid gold?  I was expecting something like vibranium or whatever crap marvel heroes use in their tech.  lol.
> 
> 
> However, for pennies on the dollar at least you have proof of concept that it's not a snake oil concept.   It's a low risk, high reward scenario.  You're able experiment and get way more out of it just with the knowledge alone, and the sonic improvement is icing, because you ended up in the plus side.  I mean this is in part the spirit of doing DIY.
> ...


The fuse is slow-blow; the wallet is fast-blow 😳😢…


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> The fuse is slow-blow; the wallet is fast-blow 😳😢…


That's what she said.


----------



## therremans




----------



## Slade01 (Jan 12, 2022)

therremans said:


>


----------



## therremans

1. US $22.36 15％ Off | GUSTARD fuse HIFI fever fuse nano alloy high-end fuse U16 C16 X16 A18 P26 X22 A22 X26 H20
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mNFbvbE

2. US $4.04 10％ Off | 1pcs/5pcs Slow-melting sterling silver gold-plated fuse Aucharm HIFI fuse CD amplifier amp sound 5x20mm
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPvFzpq

3. US $15.75 13％ Off | 1PCS HIFI Single Crystal Silver Nano Fuse CD Audio Amplifier Tube Amp Fuse 5*20mm 0.5A -15A Electronic Component AudioTube
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqORjg8

4. US $18.69 11％ Off | 5x20 Sound rhyme HIFI fever grade single crystal sterling silver nano fuse audio power amplifier socket tube slow melting
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqL0wHa

5. US $27.32-$47.68 13％ Off | 1PCS 5*20mm HIFI Graphene Nano Quantum Fuse CD Audio Amplifier Tube Amp Fuse Slow Blow Fuse
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mO6zjnw


----------



## Slade01

*This one!*


therremans said:


> *5. US $27.32-$47.68 13％ Off | 1PCS 5*20mm HIFI Graphene Nano Quantum Fuse CD Audio Amplifier Tube Amp Fuse Slow Blow Fuse*
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mO6zjnw


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tung-Sol...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tung-Sol...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Those are strange looking fuses…🤪


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Those are strange looking fuses…🤪


Those are some a' them 'reverse' fuses.  If they blow they take out your amp.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


>


OMG!!!   I'll have to assume that 'limited availability' is a function of limited sales.  I just wonder if they come with a warranty. I mean you don't really know if it's working properly unless it blows and quits working, right?


----------



## g3n3r1c (Jan 14, 2022)

bcowen said:


> OMG!!!   I'll have to assume that 'limited availability' is a function of limited sales.  I just wonder if they come with a warranty. I mean you don't really know if it's working properly unless it blows and quits working, right?


"My amp started smoking the other day. I pulled the plug to save the fuse, as it cost 5x more than the amp."

Audiophile logic!


----------



## therremans

Revisiting the Gray Plate Sylvania 6J5GTs with a Mullard 6080. Still a fan of their sound.


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> "My amp started smoking the other day. I pulled the plug to save the fuse, as it cost 5x more than the amp."
> 
> Audiophile logic!


it's a bad habit, next it will start booze and Rock n Roll 😁😁😁


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-2-meta...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

I can’t see these being worth anything near this price. Consider alternatives. Crazy.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-2-meta...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> I can’t see these being worth anything near this price. Consider alternatives. Crazy.


I have a couple micanol base 6SN7W's.  The metal base ones are supposed to be even better, but I've never heard them. Too rich for my blood. The micanol base ones sound very good.  Strangely enough, the bottle is the same height, the flashing is the same, and the plates, micas, and getters are all identical to a certain 7N7 that can frequently be found for 1/10th the price.


----------



## Ripper2860

Used to be 1/20th before you drove the price up.  😄


----------



## therremans

Ripper2860 said:


> Used to be 1/20th before you drove the price up.  😄


they can still be had for $8-$10


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Used to be 1/20th before you drove the price up.  😄


Always glad to help.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 19, 2022)

therremans said:


> they can still be had for $8-$10


I remember when top tier 7N7s were easily had for $5.  😏


----------



## therremans (Jan 19, 2022)

One black plate and the rest are gray.


----------



## therremans

I do see differences with the bottom mica.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I do see differences with the bottom mica.


The 6SN7W's from the listing you linked _do_ look to have a bit more of a "rounded rectangle" shape, although it's not as pronounced as most.  The micanol base ones I have are a full racetrack.  I'll try and get a pic later.

(old pic)


)


----------



## therremans

Are the oval micas like I showed not the sought after mica then in these 7N7? That’s all I own. I don’t know much about racing (I’m not in the Carolinas/ The South).


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Are the oval micas like I showed not the sought after mica then in these 7N7? That’s all I own. I don’t know much about racing (I’m not in the Carolinas/ The South).


LOL!  Yes, you have the sought after ones.  The racetrack just meaning it's a continuous oval without the corner "peaks" as shown in the picture I posted.  Maybe a subtle difference in appearance, but there's not such a subtle difference in sound to my ears.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Jan 19, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I have a couple micanol base 6SN7W's.  The metal base ones are supposed to be even better, but I've never heard them. Too rich for my blood. The micanol base ones sound very good.  Strangely enough, the bottle is the same height, the flashing is the same, and the plates, micas, and getters are all identical to a certain 7N7 that can frequently be found for 1/10th the price.


The 14n7 tubes (the 12v equivalent of the 7n7) have the extra support rod that the 6sn7w metal base have. I don't think any of the other Sylvania tubes have that structure.


----------



## therremans

Isaacc7 said:


> The 14n7 tubes (the 12v equivalent of the 7n7) have the extra support rod that the 6sn7w metal base have. I don't think any of the other Sylvania tubes have that structure.


Ah yes, good catch, I missed that.


----------



## Ripper2860

Isaacc7 said:


> The 14n7 tubes (the 12v equivalent of the 7n7) have the extra support rod that the 6sn7w metal base have. I don't think any of the other Sylvania tubes have that structure.


I actually have a Sylvania 7N7 with the copper support rod.  I also have a 14N7 with the support rod.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> I actually have a Sylvania 7N7 with the copper support rod.  I also have a 14N7 with the support rod.


Ooh, which 7n7 is that? All of my 14n7 tubes have them wether tall or short. None of my 7n7 tubes have it though.


----------



## Ripper2860

It's a Sylvania.  I'll have to dig it up and take a pic.  @bcowen  sent it to me.  Of course that was before he became a crotchety old sour-puss.  😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> It's a Sylvania.  I'll have to dig it up and take a pic.  @bcowen  sent it to me.  Of course that was before he became a crotchety old sour-puss.  😄


Actually, there wasn't a "before."  😂


----------



## Ripper2860

Ooops.  Sorry I meant to say "before he became MORE of a crotchety old sour-puss".  😏


----------



## therremans

Does anyone have a bendix 6385 for sale?


----------



## therremans

I received this power station today. Link
Output: 60hz @ 111.1v

Clean stable power. 🤤


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I received this power station today. Link
> Output: 60hz @ 111.1v
> 
> Clean stable power. 🤤


Has a flashlight and a cigarette lighter to boot!    Fancy!


----------



## Slade01 (Jan 21, 2022)

therremans said:


> I received this power station today. Link
> Output: 60hz @ 111.1v
> 
> Clean stable power. 🤤



In all seriousness though that looks really nice, like another piece of expensive gear that would fit right in.   Unlike my abomination of a bench power supply.   My wife basically said she'd rather have me buy a plain black box chinese LPS (at the time for my MCTH)  before displaying this in the office on my desk.  lol.  Got rid of both so my marriage still intact!





Is yours meant for outside/traveling use also with the light and the cigarette plug?  And does it make the DV better sounding?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Has a flashlight and a cigarette lighter to boot!    Fancy!


That's for listening in the dark.  The flashlight assists in locating the cigarettes.


----------



## therremans

5998 / Fivre 6C4s

Yeah, it’s designed to be a portable unit. It can be charged off a car battery and I have a rather large expanding solar panel for it. 

Does it sound better?

I hear an improvement.. that’s all I can say at this time. Similar to a much needed cable upgrade.

One potential downfall is that the heaters are currently sitting at 6v.. But, I haven’t read any information to say that is too low, 10% threshold on either end is how the tubes were designed.

A 6v (potential) benefit could be reduction of some noise and increased tube life. Another forum had members modding their tube amps to drop the voltage to be around 6v for these benefits. So I’ll consider it fine.

When I remove the fitz mod, I will let you all know if the amp hums with the more infamous tubes that cause it. I modded my amp so early I’ve never had a hum out of the DV. I also have some really nice resisters to install. (Plus all new caps.)

(I still need to order one of those fancy fuses.)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> 5998 / Fivre 6C4s
> 
> Yeah, it’s designed to be a portable unit. It can be charged off a car battery and I have a rather large expanding solar panel for it.
> 
> ...


Let me know if you need some Marigo dots to go along with the fuse.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Let me know if you need some Marigo dots to go along with the fuse.


Imagine being the poor person who had to sort the 2mm from the 3mm. A gust of wind and your enitre shift is blown


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Imagine being the poor person who had to sort the 2mm from the 3mm. A gust of wind and your enitre shift is blown


LOL!  Or imagine the poor color-blind person having to sort the white and green.  No wonder people are quitting their jobs at record rates.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Let me know if you need some Marigo dots to go along with the fuse.


Perfect. (This message was typed while wearing my ionic copper magnetic wrist band.)

I honestly didn’t know what those dots were.. I thought maybe they were even placed on your forehead. Why do so many people think they work in reviews? Probably that inherit bias syndrome thing we all have.

I’d like to think the noise floor dropped on the DV. But it was already so much lower than it was when stock. I’ll try some comparisons and go back and forth with my variac using the same tubes and tracks. Maybe when this GEC 6080 arrives.

On another note: the Fivre 6C4 sound great.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Let me know if you need some Marigo dots to go along with the fuse.


I'm going to call these "Quantum Dots" that make Quantum Fuses more Quantum!.  1000 per dot ought to do it.... lol


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Or imagine the poor color-blind person having to sort the white and green.  No wonder people are quitting their jobs at record rates.


What about having them all same side up? 😳🥺😵‍💫…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's for listening in the dark.  The flashlight assists in locating the cigarettes exit when Marilyn Manson comes on 😄.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What about having them all same side up? 😳🥺😵‍💫…


Now I'm gonna have nightmares....


----------



## therremans

_“I'd like to share a tweak I've recently installed on my Prime Signature tonearm- the Marigo Audio tonearm damping dot kit. One on the cart, two on the finger lift, two on the arm, two on the side weights, and three on the counter weight. The improvement is substantial, well worth the $50 price.”_

He’s found the formula.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> In all seriousness though that looks really nice, like another piece of expensive gear that would fit right in.   Unlike my abomination of a bench power supply.   My wife basically said she'd rather have me buy a plain black box chinese LPS (at the time for my MCTH)  before displaying this in the office on my desk.  lol.  Got rid of both so my marriage still intact!
> 
> 
> 
> Is yours meant for outside/traveling use also with the light and the cigarette plug?  And does it make the DV better sounding?


Was thinking of getting an LPS For my CTH, is it worth trying ?


----------



## therremans

LPS = Linear Power Supply
CTH = Cavalli Tube Hybrid

(I had no idea what was being talked about)


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> LPS = Linear Power Supply
> CTH = Cavalli Tube Hybrid
> 
> (I had no idea what was being talked about)


My bad 😀
It sounded more like some medical statement 😂😂


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Was thinking of getting an LPS For my CTH, is it worth trying ?


@HTSkywalker  If you're planning to keep the CTH for a good long time, yes, I believe it is worth getting.   You can get one on aliexpress still even now for 80-100 bucks i think.   I know in some cases LPS with amps may just be minimal improvements. For example, adding an LPS to the Liquid Platinum will hardly do anything, the power supply with that amp is already tuned to give it its max performance.   But adding the LPS to the CTH would give it noticeable increases in sound quality.

@therremans yeah - i'm interested to see if your power supply would have added benefits to the darkvoice as well.  i believe, its usually going to be mostly a coin toss type result.  you're either going to immediately notice differences, or not at all.   I think most amps that take the pepsi challenge fall into this category.  though being a layman to amp implementations, not sure if the same principles do apply to pure tube amps vs. solid states or hybrids.   and my bad about throwing around the acronyms - gets tedious a bit with all the long cavalli amp names and such.  i dont know why but yeah, the whole line gets reduced to letters right?   CTH, LC/LCX, LP, LC, LF, LAU all liquid something amps.  but hey, the DV is the DV.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> @HTSkywalker  If you're planning to keep the CTH for a good long time, yes, I believe it is worth getting.   You can get one on aliexpress still even now for 80-100 bucks i think.   I know in some cases LPS with amps may just be minimal improvements. For example, adding an LPS to the Liquid Platinum will hardly do anything, the power supply with that amp is already tuned to give it its max performance.   But adding the LPS to the CTH would give it noticeable increases in sound quality.
> 
> @therremans yeah - i'm interested to see if your power supply would have added benefits to the darkvoice as well.  i believe, its usually going to be mostly a coin toss type result.  you're either going to immediately notice differences, or not at all.   I think most amps that take the pepsi challenge fall into this category.  though being a layman to amp implementations, not sure if the same principles do apply to pure tube amps vs. solid states or hybrids.   and my bad about throwing around the acronyms - gets tedious a bit with all the long cavalli amp names and such.  i dont know why but yeah, the whole line gets reduced to letters right?   CTH, LC/LCX, LP, LC, LF, LAU all liquid something amps.  but hey, the DV is the DV.


Thanks, probably a bench LPS is worth getting in this case due to its versatility as long as I can hide it.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks, probably a bench LPS is worth getting in this case due to its versatility as long as I can hide it.


…from the Mrs.?…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …from the Mrs.?…


🙄🙄🙄Naaaah 😀😀😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

In fact am trying to keep a neat look which is impossible with more components along the way…. Lokius, Hartung Amp


----------



## bcowen (Jan 22, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> Thanks, probably a bench LPS is worth getting in this case due to its versatility as long as I can hide it.


Just make your own.  Pretty easy with an AMB kit.  I mean you gotta find/buy a chassis, transformer, IEC socket, umbilical cable, connectors, switch, etc., but the _rest_ is easy.  🤣🤣

https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/

The chassis I bought is supreme overkill, but I liked the way it looked:


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact am trying to keep a neat look which is impossible with more components along the way…. Lokius, Hartung Amp


Better to put your cash towards better!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> _“I'd like to share a tweak I've recently installed on my Prime Signature tonearm- the Marigo Audio tonearm damping dot kit. One on the cart, two on the finger lift, two on the arm, two on the side weights, and three on the counter weight. The improvement is substantial, well worth the $50 price.”_
> 
> He’s found the formula.


Wow.  But dude made no mention of the color or size.  2mm? 3mm? 4mm? White, black, green?  A 4mm green dot placed where a 2mm black dot _should_ be would ruin everything.   I'm left with more questions than answers.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wow.  But dude made no mention of the color or size.  2mm? 3mm? 4mm? White, black, green?  A 4mm green dot placed where a 2mm black dot _should_ be would ruin everything. I'm left with more questions than answers.


What about the anti-skating?….A dot on the stylus cantilever to compensate 🤪…?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What about the anti-skating?….A dot on the stylus cantilever to compensate 🤪…?


Depends on the anti-skate design.  Moving counterweight, fixed counterweight, spring?  Each type requires a different dot, or perhaps multiple dots depending on how bad the manufacturer screwed up the design.  One thing is for sure though:  if you perform surgery on the cartridge to enable placing dots on the coils, DO NOT use a black dot as they have a conductive layer.  That could be really bad.   🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 22, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Depends on the anti-skate design.  Moving counterweight, fixed counterweight, spring?  Each type requires a different dot, or perhaps multiple dots depending on how bad the manufacturer screwed up the design.  One thing is for sure though:  if you perform surgery on the cartridge to enable placing dots on the coils, DO NOT use a black dot as they have a conductive layer.  That could be really bad.  🤣🤣


Listening to LPs via a moving dot cartridge would have me seeing moving dots 😵‍💫


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Just make your own.  Pretty easy with an AMB kit.  I mean you gotta find/buy a chassis, transformer, IEC socket, umbilical cable, connectors, switch, etc., but the _rest_ is easy.  🤣🤣
> 
> https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/
> 
> The chassis I bought is supreme overkill, but I liked the way it looked:


Very neat 👍👍


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The chassis I bought is supreme overkill…


…especially for this…

😳😄🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …especially for this…😳😄🤣


This is cheap even compared to a DV 😛


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …especially for this…😳😄🤣


Whoa.  Never thought of that.  I've only used it on the charger for the internal battery in my stylus weight gauge.  Makes the readout less digital looking.  😂


----------



## bcowen

Sunday morning cartoons.  LMAO!  This isn't even the better version with the long plates and foil getter.  I wonder if this guy actually ever sells anything? This one is a bit more distinctive with the HP branding, so I'll watch it and see if it disappears and then reappears later at a lower price.


----------



## bcowen

I'm laughing so hard now I just fell out of my chair.  A whopping $11.65 discount!!! How can I pass this up (I mean, other than the tube is worth _maybe_ $75 on a good day)?

If the guy wasn't such an obvious scam artist I might have countered at $50...


----------



## therremans (Jan 23, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Sunday morning cartoons.  LMAO!  This isn't even the better version with the long plates and foil getter.  I wonder if this guy actually ever sells anything? This one is a bit more distinctive with the HP branding, so I'll watch it and see if it disappears and then reappears later at a lower price.


I’ve seen some insane/random prices lately. Here’s an example that just popped up in the last few hours (its not too far from me either).

1 x 6C5GT $550 OBO - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-NOS-New-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

**I forgot to mention that the seller deals with collector cards.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm laughing so hard now I just fell out of my chair.  A whopping $11.65 discount!!! How can I pass this up (I mean, other than the tube is worth _maybe_ $75 on a good day)?
> 
> If the guy wasn't such an obvious scam artist I might have countered at $50...


Well, it's not just rare, it's _super rare_


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Well, it's not just rare, it's _super rare_


yeah, that's why i see a whole freaking list of them on ebay.   LOL.  is bangybang running some ebay selling seminars to up and coming tube sellers?

for real though.  its the 7730 that is super rare.


----------



## Slade01 (Jan 23, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> …especially for this…😳😄🤣


The Nobsound NS-08e!  I've owned one of these before.  Great amp for the price point.  At least when it supported chinese 6j9 or 6688 equivalents.   Throw in a pair of Amperex PQ 6688s, change the opamps if you wanted to, and it can compete with the vali 2.   

Though I see your point @jonathan c that it needs a bigger chassis!   The extra room.... increases the soundstage.  lol.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm laughing so hard now I just fell out of my chair.  A whopping $11.65 discount!!! How can I pass this up (I mean, other than the tube is worth _maybe_ $75 on a good day)?
> 
> If the guy wasn't such an obvious scam artist I might have countered at $50...


Give him/her/it a Robin Williams bid:  good morning Vietnam…


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Well, it's not just rare, it's _super rare_


…a mere step below unobtainium….


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I’ve seen some insane/random prices lately. Here’s an example that just popped up in the last few hours (its not too far from me either).
> 
> 1 x 6C5GT $550 OBO - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-NOS-New-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> **I forgot to mention that the seller deals with collector cards.


OMG!  For a 6C5?  The 7316 I listed was just 5x overpriced.  This one is 20x overpriced...  

Wonder what people are smoking these days.  Or perhaps there's been a surge in accidents and they all bumped their heads.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> OMG!  For a 6C5?  The 7316 I listed was just 5x overpriced.  This one is 20x overpriced...


Therefore, this one 


is ♾ x overpriced.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Therefore, this one is ♾ x overpriced.


LOL!  Unless it's free AND has free shipping, it's overpriced.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Unless it's free AND has free shipping** it's overpriced.


** including return


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm laughing so hard now I just fell out of my chair.  A whopping $11.65 discount!!! How can I pass this up (I mean, other than the tube is worth _maybe_ $75 on a good day)?
> 
> If the guy wasn't such an obvious scam artist I might have countered at $50...


Probably he was able to fool few customers to post such prices.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm laughing so hard now I just fell out of my chair.  A whopping $11.65 discount!!! How can I pass this up (I mean, other than the tube is worth _maybe_ $75 on a good day)?
> 
> If the guy wasn't such an obvious scam artist I might have countered at $50...


Messing with the wrong Guy 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> OMG!  For a 6C5?  The 7316 I listed was just 5x overpriced.  This one is 20x overpriced...
> 
> Wonder what people are smoking these days.  Or perhaps there's been a surge in accidents and they all bumped their heads.


Or maybe just a crook


----------



## Ripper2860

Maybe he's still pissed about the carpet bombing the US did during the Vietnam war.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe he's still pissed about the carpet bombing the US did during the Vietnam war.


…from agent Orange to Amperex PQ 7316 Orange…


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L35-Lot-of...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

“Tests strong”






This tube appears to have no vacuum.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe he's still pissed about the carpet bombing the US did during the Vietnam war.


ROFL!

And with all that carpet the US delivered, you'd think he could use a piece of that for a background rather than this cheap looking felt.  😖


----------



## bcowen (Jan 23, 2022)

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L35-Lot-of...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> “Tests strong”
> 
> ...


Pretty sure that one doesn't test strong.   Still, $47 for 8 of the preferred version is a pretty sweet deal if they actually _do_ test strong.


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 23, 2022)

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L35-Lot-of...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> “Tests strong”
> 
> ...


I agree


----------



## bcowen

And some Chatham branded Tung Sols from the same seller.  A couple aren't pretty, but they're cheap (at least at the current bid amount with 40 minutes left).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1443761108...aultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2563228.c101124.m2109


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And some Chatham branded Tung Sols from the same seller.  A couple aren't pretty, but they're cheap (at least at the current bid amount with 40 minutes left).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/144376110842?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200818142401&meid=6cc6f1490e5d4a4f9ae94e47d2a5a947&pid=101124&rk=3&rkt=12&sd=133998373605&itm=144376110842&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2563228&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2563228.c101124.m2109


Q1: Green stuff on tubes?
Q2: ‘Accordionsforbrazil’ - really?
****  I think that a bcowen due diligence trip
       is in order. Note the location.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe he's still pissed about the carpet bombing the US did during the Vietnam war.


Trying to recover back some of the losses. 😂😂


----------



## bcowen (Jan 23, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Q1: Green stuff on tubes?
> Q2: ‘Accordionsforbrazil’ - really?
> ****  I think that a bcowen due diligence trip
> is in order. Note the location.


Q1: Salt corrosion, presumably (he's on the coast).
Q2: Apparently he hates Brazil for some reason.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Q1: Salt corrosion, presumably (he's on the coast).
> Q2: Apparently he hates Brazil for some reason.


He could send them a batch of ‘vuvuzela’…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Q1: Salt corrosion, presumably (he's on the coast).
> Q2: Apparently he hates Brazil for some reason.


Something with  him and the green color 😄😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> He could send them a batch of ‘vuvuzela’…


Maybe those tubes are vuvuzela sounding 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Maybe those tubes are vuvuzela sounding 🤣🤣


Especially if they are the n/o/s ‘Valvozela’ from the former East Germany 🤣…


----------



## Deyan

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/L35-Lot-of...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> “Tests strong”
> 
> ...


Sometimes the getter just fades without losing vacuum, it can be reflashed. I used to fix them when I was in my old workshop.


----------



## musicinmymind

Any recommendation for RCA interconnects? 

Right now I am using monoprice between Hugo 2 and Darkvoice, may not be optimal. There are very expensive one's out there, but I am looking around 200$. Building custom cable using Mogami 2803 seems to be best option.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Cheo


musicinmymind said:


> Any recommendation for RCA interconnects?
> 
> Right now I am using monoprice between Hugo 2 and Darkvoice, may not be optimal. There are very expensive one's out there, but I am looking around 200$. Building custom cable using Mogami 2803 seems to be best option.


Check those out 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EL1W1RI/ref=cm_sw_r_wa_api_glt_i_YNSWFBMFXWXXC9F98N7V
Or go with Audioquest as per your budget


----------



## musicinmymind

HTSkywalker said:


> Cheo
> 
> Check those out
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EL1W1RI/ref=cm_sw_r_wa_api_glt_i_YNSWFBMFXWXXC9F98N7V
> Or go with Audioquest as per your budget



Worlds Best Cable has feedback as not refined, etched sounding, but artificial sounding cable and almost same feedback on AudioQuest.
Planning to get Mogami and build myself.


----------



## HTSkywalker

musicinmymind said:


> Worlds Best Cable has feedback as not refined, etched sounding, but artificial sounding cable and almost same feedback on AudioQuest.
> Planning to get Mogami and build myself.


Am using Audioquest Big Sur with great results but probably it’s YMMV


----------



## musicinmymind

HTSkywalker said:


> Am using Audioquest Big Sur with great results but probably it’s YMMV



Thanks for suggestions. I will check and get one.


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> Worlds Best Cable has feedback as not refined, etched sounding, but artificial sounding cable and almost same feedback on AudioQuest.
> Planning to get Mogami and build myself.


I make my own with the VH Audio V-Twist wire.  Love that wire, and while it's certainly not cheap my interconnects are pretty short so it doesn't add up too fast.  It's (obviously) not shielded which has never caused any issue for me, but might be a problem with a very long run or in a more RFI/EMI prone environment.  Add some connectors and call it a day, or put on some sleeving for visual appeal.  

https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html






Sleeved:





Naked:


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I make my own with the VH Audio V-Twist wire.



You have some talent.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I make my own with the VH Audio V-Twist wire.  Love that wire, and while it's certainly not cheap my interconnects are pretty short so it doesn't add up too fast.  It's (obviously) not shielded which has never caused any issue for me, but might be a problem with a very long run or in a more RFI/EMI prone environment.  Add some connectors and call it a day, or put on some sleeving for visual appeal.
> 
> https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html
> 
> ...


All cannctors look straight, direct and short and the cables are of a high quality 👍👍 no chance for interference.
Love the concept,!


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> Just got a used 336se in mint condition and comes with some tubes. At the moment using driver Motorola 6SN7GTB and power RCA JAN 6AS7G. I'm loving the sound from this setup now. It's got warmth and full bodied and I like that ! It's still a few hours into listening. I'll form better impressions after a few days. I have a choice of using Aune T1 or o2+odac as my dac. At the moment I'm using the Aune T1 first with stock tube. I'm listening with hd650 now. Will try the dt880 pro in a day or so. Best of all there's no hum from the Darkvoice with those tubes.
> 
> Some pictures.



6th August 2015. My first tube amp. Those were the days.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I make my own with the VH Audio V-Twist wire.  Love that wire, and while it's certainly not cheap my interconnects are pretty short so it doesn't add up too fast.  It's (obviously) not shielded which has never caused any issue for me, but might be a problem with a very long run or in a more RFI/EMI prone environment.  Add some connectors and call it a day, or put on some sleeving for visual appeal.
> 
> https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html
> 
> ...


No ‘Carolina Blue’ for the sleeving?! 🤔


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 24, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> 6th August 2015. My first tube amp. Those were the days.


You had it all: Beyerdynamic, Aune tube DAC, and lava lamp ICBM…(I can hear Mary Hopkin singing…)


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> You had it all: Beyerdynamic, Aune tube DAC, and lava lamp ICBM…(I can hear Mary Hopkin singing…)



Don't play play. That was Summit-Fi for me when I started. You forget the legendary Senns HD650. I had it all. More like Simply Red.


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> You had it all: Beyerdynamic, Aune tube DAC, and lava lamp ICBM…(I can hear Mary Hopkin singing…)



Now @UntilThen has legendary level tube amps, legendary vintage Kenwood amps, and forza cable sponsorships.  LOL.  Living the dream!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> No ‘Carolina Blue’ for the sleeving?! 🤔


They were out of stock.  Probably their most popular color which explains the shortage.


----------



## UntilThen

Slade01 said:


> Now @UntilThen has legendary level tube amps, legendary vintage Kenwood amps, and forza cable sponsorships.  LOL.  Living the dream!



Meanwhile I ask myself this everyday.


----------



## Slade01

UntilThen said:


> Meanwhile I ask myself this everyday.


I guess go big or go home right?  LOL.   

I hope it sounds good....like it better sound better than live and actually being there.   

I read it uses 8 dac chips.  But...its a Sabre Dac.  A value of 50k and they couldn't use something better?  To me isn't that akin to putting 8 topping dacs in a marble box. I'm just kidding.   Ah...don't mind me. I've just never met a Sabre based dac I liked.


----------



## UntilThen

Slade01 said:


> I guess go big or go home right?  LOL.
> 
> I hope it sounds good....like it better sound better than live and actually being there.
> 
> I read it uses 8 dac chips.  But...its a Sabre Dac.  A value of 50k and they couldn't use something better?  To me isn't that akin to putting 8 topping dacs in a marble box. I'm just kidding.   Ah...don't mind me. I've just never met a Sabre based dac I liked.



I was kidding. There's not a single day I didn't think of the Darkvoice 336se. That fateful day I bought that amp.


----------



## Mr Trev

Off topic post o the day - Anybody up for a 72 driver iem?
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/sdtle0/72_drivers_true_end_game_iem/


----------



## therremans (Jan 27, 2022)

Purchased this and had forgotten that some of the Chatham were RCA rebrands. After realizing this, I wrote the seller and attempted to canceled the purchase. I eventually got a refund and then this arrived well after the fact. I guess he didn’t want it and decided to just give it to me. It’s mint and I do think it’s NOS.

Too bad it doesn’t sound as good as it looks and tests. Sounds like ass! Pretty much makes every tube lifeless.. bloated and sloppy with minimal detail. Not a fan of the RCA 6AS7G.




Now this GEC 6080 arrived from Canada and it sounds great. I have been really enjoying it. It’s a lot like a Mullard but has its differences which makes it a bit more versatile.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Purchased this and had forgotten that some of the Chatham were RCA rebrands. After realizing this, I wrote the seller and attempted to canceled the purchase. I eventually got a refund and then this arrived well after the fact. I guess he didn’t want it and decided to just give it to me. It’s mint and I do think it’s NOS.


Maybe I'm wrong, i don't even think that is a rebrand, more like some person's attempt to rip people off by charging a chatham price for an rca.  The print job on that tube is amateur, it screams forgery to me every time I glance at it.    At least you got it for free!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Purchased this and had forgotten that some of the Chatham were RCA rebrands. After realizing this, I wrote the seller and attempted to canceled the purchase. I eventually got a refund and then this arrived well after the fact. I guess he didn’t want it and decided to just give it to me. It’s mint and I do think it’s NOS.
> 
> Too bad it doesn’t sound as good as it looks and tests. Sounds like ass! Pretty much makes every tube lifeless.. bloated and sloppy with minimal detail. Not a fan of the RCA 6AS7G.
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of the RCA 6AS7G either.  The 6AS7GA (straight bottle) is better.  Not that it's a worthy tube, just that it sucks less.    Nice score on the GEC!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I'm not a fan of the RCA 6AS7G either.  The 6AS7GA (straight bottle) is better.  Not that it's a worthy tube, just that it sucks less.    Nice score on the GEC!


Yeah, for $45 bucks too. Perfectly balanced and strong like I mentioned.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, i don't even think that is a rebrand, more like some person's attempt to rip people off by charging a chatham price for an rca.  The print job on that tube is amateur, it screams forgery to me every time I glance at it.    At least you got it for free!


Hard to know which. The font is very similar (if not identical) to the real Chathams. But I have several, and the silkscreening on all of them is in poor shape, and barely legible on a couple of them.  The silkscreen on those looks like it was done last month....and maybe it was.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yeah, for $45 bucks too. Perfectly balanced and strong like I mentioned.


Ok, then REALLY nice score!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Hard to know which. The font is very similar (if not identical) to the real Chathams. But I have several, and the silkscreening on all of them is in poor shape, and barely legible on a couple of them.  The silkscreen on those looks like it was done last month....and maybe it was.





Slade01 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, i don't even think that is a rebrand, more like some person's attempt to rip people off by charging a chatham price for an rca.  The print job on that tube is amateur, it screams forgery to me every time I glance at it.    At least you got it for free!


It seems odd to me for someone to spend the time to try to make forgery here as the Chatham isn’t necessarily worth all that much. The tube is very fresh, like it was just pulled out of the box. The pins have zero corrosion on them. The seller had around 6-10 of these and also had a box of RCA branded ones. I just think it’s true NOS and no one wanted them over the years so the shops sat on them. It was sent to me from an electronics shop. The silkscreening looks off since it was done by RCA (or whoever) and maybe fresh since it was stored well? No codes on the tube base either.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm not a fan of the RCA 6AS7G either.  The 6AS7GA (straight bottle) is better.  Not that it's a worthy tube, just that it sucks less.    Nice score on the GEC!


I would say a good all-rounder for the price (The 6AS7GA) but nothing special though.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> It seems odd to me for someone to spend the time to try to make forgery here as the Chatham isn’t necessarily worth all that much. The tube is very fresh, like it was just pulled out of the box. The pins have zero corrosion on them. The seller had around 6-10 of these and also had a box of RCA branded ones. I just think it’s true NOS and no one wanted them over the years so the shops sat on them. It was sent to me from an electronics shop. The silkscreening looks off since it was done by RCA (or whoever) and maybe fresh since it was stored well? No codes on the tube base either.



A Chatham is still worth 2-3x more than a regular RCA on a good day.  I could almost believe as a seller, if I had a box of tubes that has no print identification, it's an opportunity to at least get it back to form...or get greedy and try to pass it off as another brand.   All I know is any professional printer/screenprinting worth their salt would never let that much copious amount of ink remain on the product.   I don't know, maybe its just me, I used to work in printing/production back in the day, so looking at that kills me.

You're right, otherwise, it is pretty odd to spend all that time, so I can definitely see your point.


----------



## therremans

When will the DV breathe again @bcowen? 

@Paladin79, is your amp still making the rounds? Am I still worthy?


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV1988...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Well that’s a rich couple of opening bids.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> When will the DV breathe again @bcowen?
> 
> @Paladin79, is your amp still making the rounds? Am I still worthy?


I actually laid things out last weekend with full intention of getting started on it and then got honeydo'ed to death.  Well, not actual _death_ death, but about as appealing. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to at least organize the things I laid out...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV1988...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Well that’s a rich couple of opening bids.


Geeez.  I've never heard one of those, and if that's the going price I probably never will.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I actually laid things out last weekend with full intention of getting started on it and then got honeydo'ed to death.  Well, not actual _death_ death, but about as appealing. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to at least organize the things I laid out...


Okay, I’ll rebuild mine with all new caps + resistors once you begin.


----------



## therremans

For anyone looking for a GEC 6080.. Langrex has some - https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-GEC-G...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> For anyone looking for a GEC 6080.. Langrex has some - https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-GEC-G...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


Really good price for them too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

therremans said:


> When will the DV breathe again @bcowen?
> 
> @Paladin79, is your amp still making the rounds? Am I still worthy?


I am sending the amp out soon and you are number 3 on the list. I decided to use this one but wanted to redo some of the internals first. Unfortunately Covid affected a key employee and I have been busier than usual but I am getting there. Cold weather and physical therapy for my lower back also slowed me down, my shop is freezing right now. I am sending a couple Melz with the amp including a 1976 version of what we call the 1578. That paired with a Tung Sol 6080 has an impressive sound IMHO when using Focal Utopias.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV1988...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Well that’s a rich couple of opening bids.


I have heard a few of those, and they scored pretty well as I recall. One was NOS and the other two were not far behind. They definitely made the top 52 tubes we tested.


----------



## HTSkywalker

@bcowen Talking about the RCA, found an incredible deal while supplies last 😜😜😜😜😜

https://www.amazon.com/TubeDepot-6A...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


----------



## therremans

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen Talking about the RCA, found an incredible deal while supplies last 😜😜😜😜😜
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TubeDepot-6AS7G-6520-NOS-6AS7G-Pack/dp/B08XW5N2TN/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3LL1JWTW1EXN9&keywords=6as7g&qid=1643385635&sprefix=6as7g,aps,355&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFOVVBJM0xJVVVQOTImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTEwMDE2NTUyOVhJMVA1R09NWCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODEwNzY1MzRVTFRBVEYzSVVDRyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


 TubeDepot is awful.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> TubeDepot is awful.


But they carry the famous Memphis BBQ sauce with a good price 😍😍
https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/memphis-bbq-sauce-rub


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> But they carry the famous Memphis BBQ sauce with a good price 😍😍
> https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/memphis-bbq-sauce-rub


that owner must be catering to a very niche clientele.  you know, cuz when i order tubes, i get a craving for BBQ....


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen Talking about the RCA, found an incredible deal while supplies last 😜😜😜😜😜
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TubeDepot-6AS7G-6520-NOS-6AS7G-Pack/dp/B08XW5N2TN/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3LL1JWTW1EXN9&keywords=6as7g&qid=1643385635&sprefix=6as7g,aps,355&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFOVVBJM0xJVVVQOTImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTEwMDE2NTUyOVhJMVA1R09NWCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODEwNzY1MzRVTFRBVEYzSVVDRyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


I have not bought many of those for a while but they used to run me $25-$35 each, NOS, I have many that used the old logo and were JAN issue with bottom shield.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I have not bought many of those for a while but they used to run me $25-$35 each, NOS, I have many that used the old logo and were JAN issue with bottom shield.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

therremans said:


>


Now show me the Svetlana counterpart used by the Russian navy. The Russians ended up with an RCA production line I was told. The Russian version is on top in the photo, and shows the bottom getter. You have the bottom getter version of the RCA, I have some stashed away somewhere but my shop is very cold right now lol.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Now show me the Svetlana counterpart used by the Russian navy. The Russians ended up with an RCA production line I was told. The Russian version is on top in the photo, and shows the bottom getter. You have the bottom getter version of the RCA, I have some stashed away somewhere but my shop is very cold right now lol.


Yeah, I think I recall reading that the bottom getter version sounds better. Mine has a large D getter at the bottom, FWIW. I was never into the sound of it. It was also NOS in the box, I think I only paid $15 for it.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> I am sending the amp out soon and you are number 3 on the list. I decided to use this one but wanted to redo some of the internals first. Unfortunately Covid affected a key employee and I have been busier than usual but I am getting there. Cold weather and physical therapy for my lower back also slowed me down, my shop is freezing right now. I am sending a couple Melz with the amp including a 1976 version of what we call the 1578. That paired with a Tung Sol 6080 has an impressive sound IMHO when using Focal Utopias.



I love this Tung-sol 6080 combined with Melz 1578 (59) in my Darkvoice and HD650.

The Tung-sol 6080 is a great value tube for the price.


----------



## SHIMACM

Now I'm using a combination that's been killer for rock: Sylvania 6080 GB and Foton 52.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I love this Tung-sol 6080 combined with Melz 1578 (59) in my Darkvoice and HD650.
> 
> The Tung-sol 6080 is a great value tube for the price.


I included it with a Svetlana winged C with my loaner.


SHIMACM said:


> Now I'm using a combination that's been killer for rock: Sylvania 6080 GB and Foton 52.


I have plenty of Fotons but they are not a regular listen for me. Friends and I trade around the top 25 of over 1500 tubes we tried but luckily I have plenty of the top Melz so I am never without one.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I love this Tung-sol 6080 combined with Melz 1578 (59) in my Darkvoice and HD650.
> 
> The Tung-sol 6080 is a great value tube for the price.


I still have not modified my DV but hope to one day. That is a pretty good tube combination, in my main Incubus I will run such a Melz with a Tung Sol 5998, that power tube is kind of a standard for myself and local audiophiles. I could also locate a matched quad for some test amps, I could not do that with GEC very easily.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen Talking about the RCA, found an incredible deal while supplies last 😜😜😜😜😜
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TubeDepot-6AS7G-6520-NOS-6AS7G-Pack/dp/B08XW5N2TN/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3LL1JWTW1EXN9&keywords=6as7g&qid=1643385635&sprefix=6as7g,aps,355&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFOVVBJM0xJVVVQOTImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTEwMDE2NTUyOVhJMVA1R09NWCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODEwNzY1MzRVTFRBVEYzSVVDRyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


No free Prime shipping?  I'm out.  😂


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> TubeDepot is awful.


Yeah, I concur. An extra charge for "balanced triodes."  Balanced to what?  5%? 10%? 25%?  "High Gain"?  What is that?  A tube that measures above bogey values?  Or maybe they send a 6SL7 instead of a 6SN7 and tell 'ya you asked for higher gain.  Or maybe it's just a higher gain for their bank account.  "Low noise and microphonics?"  I would *expect* a new production tube to NOT be microphonic. So maybe they should state "We'll send you a noisy, microphonic tube unless you pay an extra $4."

So I'm being a little sarcastic obviously, but IMO the first two are utter BS. Why not just show the price of a GOOD tube at the outset?


----------



## therremans

I’m certain my Melz was NOS. It changed so much after burn in, it suddenly opened up and had detail.. still loving this combination.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I concur. An extra charge for "balanced triodes."  Balanced to what?  5%? 10%? 25%?  "High Gain"?  What is that?  A tube that measures above bogey values?  Or maybe they send a 6SL7 instead of a 6SN7 and tell 'ya you asked for higher gain.  Or maybe it's just a higher gain for their bank account.  "Low noise and microphonics?"  I would *expect* a new production tube to NOT be microphonic. So maybe they should state "We'll send you a noisy, microphonic tube unless you pay an extra $4."
> 
> So I'm being a little sarcastic obviously, but IMO the first two are utter BS. Why not just show the price of a GOOD tube at the outset?


Yeah.. nailed it, shady unethical business practices to nickel and dime poor suckers with some OCD tendencies and people just getting into tubes that don’t know anything yet.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 28, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I am sending the amp out soon and you are number 3 on the list. I decided to use this one but wanted to redo some of the internals first. Unfortunately Covid affected a key employee and I have been busier than usual but I am getting there. Cold weather and physical therapy for my lower back also slowed me down, my shop is freezing right now. I am sending a couple Melz with the amp including a 1976 version of what we call the 1578. That paired with a Tung Sol 6080 has an impressive sound IMHO when using Focal Utopias.


I really like the Tung Sol 6080....great sound at a reasonable price.  But for anyone shopping these, be aware that there's the real Tung Sol and the "not exactly" branded Tung Sol.

Real Tung Sol on the left, and the "not exactly" on the right.  Note the metal spring mica supports, silver edging at the top and bottom of the plates, and copper filament rods in the real deal:




The "not exactly" looks suspiciously like an RCA.  And sounds pretty 'meh'...just like the RCA. Hmmmmm.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I really like the Tung Sol 6080....great sound at a reasonable price.  But for anyone shopping these, be aware that there's the real Tung Sol and the "not exactly" branded Tung Sol.
> 
> Real Tung Sol on the left, and the "not exactly" on the right.  Note the metal spring mica supports, silver edging at the top and bottom of the plates, and copper filament rods in the real deal:
> 
> ...



It's a valuable lesson for any tube roller out there   Don't rely solely on the printing.  You can't fake internal construction!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I really like the Tung Sol 6080....great sound at a reasonable price.  But for anyone shopping these, be aware that there's the real Tung Sol and the "not exactly" branded Tung Sol.
> 
> Real Tung Sol on the left, and the "not exactly" on the right.  Note the metal spring mica supports, silver edging at the top and bottom of the plates, and copper filament rods in the real deal:
> 
> ...


Naturally what I sent with the loaner was a real Tung Sol, I even have the original box.😜


----------



## musicinmymind

Cetron 7236 like in picture same as Tung Sol 7236?


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> Cetron 7236 like in picture same as Tung Sol 7236?


Yes, to my knowledge. I never compared them. I think the Cetron is going to be made later, ~70s, after some sale or trade happened where Cetron starting making the tubes but with Tung-Sol’s process and equipment.

Your photo does look similar to mine from 61’.


----------



## musicinmymind

Thx for confirmation and posting pics.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 29, 2022)

therremans said:


> Yes, to my knowledge. I never compared them. I think the Cetron is going to be made later, ~70s, after some sale or trade happened where Cetron starting making the tubes but with Tung-Sol’s process and equipment.
> 
> Your photo does look similar to mine from 61’.


Be really interesting to compare the two.  I have some Cetrons, but no Tung Sols.  Cetron was a Richardson Electronics brand, and the Cetron 300B's (that were marketed as a replica of the Western Electric) were quite disappointing sonically and had very flimsy and inconsistent construction quality.  To my knowledge Richardson did _not_ make those with WE equipment or processes, as all of that was put in storage until production on the first (true) WE reissues started up.  I think Richardson's version was just a poorly attempted copy that failed in more areas than it succeeded. Probably an entirely different story with the 7236 as the ones I have look to be very well built, so instead of a blundered copy they are possibly more of a continuation and simply picked up where Tung Sol left off.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have not bought many of those for a while but they used to run me $25-$35 each, NOS, I have many that used the old logo and were JAN issue with bottom shield.


Got mine for $49.95 a year back, still is:

https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I included it with a Svetlana winged C with my loaner.
> 
> I have plenty of Fotons but they are not a regular listen for me. Friends and I trade around the top 25 of over 1500 tubes we tried but luckily I have plenty of the top Melz so I am never without one.


Not much audible difference between the Winged C and the RCA


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Got mine for $49.95 a year back, still is:
> 
> https://tubedepot.com/products/6as7g-6520


Man...that's $49.95 more than @therremans paid for the last one he got.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No free Prime shipping?  I'm out.  😂


For the price, you can discard the shipping cost. 😍😍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Not much audible difference between the Winged C and the RCA


Winged C cost me a lot less, I am not sure I paid much of anything for a batch of them from the 50's, I recall resoldering some pins other than one I sent Cowen, that would have required effort.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I concur. An extra charge for "balanced triodes."  Balanced to what?  5%? 10%? 25%?  "High Gain"?  What is that?  A tube that measures above bogey values?  Or maybe they send a 6SL7 instead of a 6SN7 and tell 'ya you asked for higher gain.  Or maybe it's just a higher gain for their bank account.  "Low noise and microphonics?"  I would *expect* a new production tube to NOT be microphonic. So maybe they should state "We'll send you a noisy, microphonic tube unless you pay an extra $4."
> 
> So I'm being a little sarcastic obviously, but IMO the first two are utter BS. Why not just show the price of a GOOD tube at the outset?


Exactly!!! ordering a standard tube is ordering a non balanced, low gain, high noise, non matched pair 😆😆


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Winged C cost me a lot less, I am not sure I paid much of anything for a batch of them from the 50's, I recall resoldering some pins other than one I sent Cowen, that would have required effort.


What??  I thought you had resoldered the pins already. Crap.  It just sold on Ebay for $160, and probably fetched that because I claimed the pins had been redone.  Oh well.  Perhaps my_ real_ calling in life is to become Bangy Bang Jr.  😂


----------



## bcowen

OK....I'm going in.  Wish me luck.  From the optimistic viewpoint, when I'm done the DV will still work and sound much better. Pessimistically, something will fry and I'll have just burned up more $$ in parts than the amp cost to begin with.  If I'm not heard from in a few days, someone please call 911 (or my wife, but for your sake try 911 first).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What??  I thought you had resoldered the pins already. Crap.  It just sold on Ebay for $160, and probably fetched that because I claimed the pins had been redone.  Oh well.  Perhaps my_ real_ calling in life is to become Bangy Bang Jr.  😂


You have a new soldering iron right? I am trying to supply you with ways to use it. I am seriously considering sending you an amp kit. Two boards and a box of parts, and a slab of 1/8 inch copper. 😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have a new soldering iron right? I am trying to supply you with ways to use it. I am seriously considering sending you an amp kit. Two boards and a box of parts, and a *slab of 1/8 inch copper. 😜*


Yeah, have the new Weller fired up right now.  Unfortunately the instructions are NOT clear on which end of the iron to hold.  There's also a mention of something called 'solder'....need to research that a bit and see what it means.  

And way cool!  Two boards, parts, and copper.  But wait...did you just forget to mention the tiger maple chassis with dovetailed corners? Or was that an intentional omission?  😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, have the new Weller fired up right now.  Unfortunately the instructions are NOT clear on which end of the iron to hold.  There's also a mention of something called 'solder'....need to research that a bit and see what it means.
> 
> And way cool!  Two boards, parts, and copper.  But wait...did you just forget to mention the tiger maple chassis with dovetailed corners? Or was that an intentional omission?  😂


You need to start collecting doves if you want their tails. Maple, schmaple, I am throwing in a cardboard box so your equipment matches.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You need to start collecting doves if you want their tails. Maple, schmaple, I am throwing in a cardboard box so your equipment matches.


I can use the shipping box if you like.  Just please don't grab one out of the garage that has "Depends" on it.  😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I can use the shipping box if you like.  Just please don't grab one out of the garage that has "Depends" on it.  😂😂


NOW I remember why you do not deserve a second amp!!!🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yeah, have the new Weller fired up right now.  Unfortunately the instructions are NOT clear on which end of the iron to hold.  There's also a mention of something called 'solder'....need to research that a bit and see what it means.
> 
> And way cool!  Two boards, parts, and copper.  But wait...did you just forget to mention the tiger maple chassis with dovetailed corners? Or was that an intentional omission?  😂


Hopefully it’s not already too late, plug the following 🔌 in the electrical outlet first, wait a bit than hold the iron in the middle and move your grip slowly towards the cooler side.
Mark this side for future use.
😝😝😝😝


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> OK....I'm going in.  Wish me luck.  From the optimistic viewpoint, when I'm done the DV will still work and sound much better. Pessimistically, something will fry and I'll have just burned up more $$ in parts than the amp cost to begin with.  If I'm not heard from in a few days, someone please call 911 (or my wife, but for your sake try 911 first).


Curious how that single finely aged cap will improve the sound.  Good luck and let us know how it’s going. You have a decent amount of time desoldering the connections for the new sockets and the output PCB.


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 29, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> NOW I remember why you do not deserve a second amp!!!🤣🤣


…that ‘Depends’ on how bcowen behaves…😖


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> OK....I'm going in.  Wish me luck.


If I don’t make it back, the Sidecubus goes to the Smithsonian Museum….the cowen wing!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Curious how that single finely aged cap will improve the sound.  Good luck and let us know how it’s going. You have a decent amount of time desoldering the connections for the new sockets and the output PCB.


Yeah, not sure what happened with the outer film covering on that one cap. It was just a touch darker when I got it, but has yellowed more since then.  Measures right in with the others on both my capacitance and ESR meters though, so it appears to be fine internally.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …that depends on how *bcowen behaves*…😖


That's technically an oxymoron.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Curious how that single finely aged cap will improve the sound.


One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> One of these things is not like the others,
> One of these things just doesn't belong,
> Can you tell which thing is not like the others
> By the time I finish my song?


I think I might
At the risk of being wrong
But still better than the fright
Of hearing you sing a song

🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> OK....I'm going in.  Wish me luck.  From the optimistic viewpoint, when I'm done the DV will still work and sound much better. Pessimistically, something will fry and I'll have just burned up more $$ in parts than the amp cost to begin with.  If I'm not heard from in a few days, someone please call 911 (or my wife, but for your sake try 911 first).


So. That's a crap load of parts, wil there even be a DV left?


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> So. That's a crap load of parts, wil there even be a DV left?


Is that a bad outcome?😉


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Is that a bad outcome?😉


Mehbee, mebhee not. I'ts been so long since there's been an actual DV related post, I don't remember what's even relevant anymore


----------



## bcowen (Jan 29, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> So. That's a crap load of parts, wil there even be a DV left?


The crap load of parts replaces the load of crap parts, and hopefully the DV will learn the words in the process and not have to hum along any more.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> So. That's a crap load of parts, will there even be a DV left?


Then the classic posting by @Galapac becomes necessary _again_:


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Mehbee, mebhee not. I'ts been so long since there's been an actual DV related post, I don't remember what's even relevant anymore


Oh great.  So now it's up to _me_ to get the thread back on track? You guys are screwed. 😅😂


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh great.  So now it's up to _me_ to get the thread back on track? You guys are screwed. 😅😂


How can you?….you own a sideways headphone amplifier…🤔😳


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> How can you?….you own a sideways headphone amplifier…🤔😳



@bcowen can you make the darkvoice sideways to match?


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> How can you?….you own a sideways headphone amplifier…🤔😳


I've heard backward masking will get you satanic messages. What does sideways masking get you?


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen can you make the darkvoice sideways to match?


Even better leftside up


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> I've heard backward masking will get you satanic messages. What does sideways masking get you?


…cowenic messages praising Marilyn Manson…


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen can you make the darkvoice sideways to match?


The modification process could easily go sideways.  So many parts, so many ways to screw up.  Does that count?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The modification process could easily go sideways.  So many parts, so many ways to screw up sideways.


The obvious FTFY….(keep missing these and your copyright protection will lapse…)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I've heard backward masking will get you satanic messages. What does sideways masking get you?


Good question!  I don't have a turntable that will play sideways.  They're expensive.  🤣

Seriously, back when I had a cheap turntable ("record player" would be more appropriate) I did the White Album thing, and the "turn me on, dead man" was clearly audible when spinning the platter backwards.  Then I looked over my shoulder 'cause I felt a dark presence in the room...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Good question!  I don't have a turntable that will play sideways.  They're expensive.  🤣
> 
> Seriously, back when I had a cheap turntable ("record player" would be more appropriate) I did the White Album thing, and the "turn me on, dead man" was clearly audible when spinning the platter backwards.  Then I looked over my shoulder 'cause I felt a dark presence in the room...


…and with the EP / 45 ‘strawberry fields forever’, there was (?) ‘I buried Paul’…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The obvious FTFY….(keep missing these and your copyright protection will lapse…)


No, no, no.  You can't FTFY your own post.  That would be a FTFM.  The FTFY is therefore unaffected, and continues to enjoy all copyright, um, rights. (I should have been a lawyer)  😝


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …and with the EP / 45 ‘strawberry fields forever’, there was (?) ‘I buried Paul’…


Never heard about that one.  And just as well -- I could only spin backwards at 33 1/3 with any consistency. 🙂


----------



## bcowen

Seems I'm succeeding at failing to get this thread back on track....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, no, no.  You can't FTFY your own post.  That would be a FTFM.  The FTFY is therefore unaffected, and continues to enjoy all copyright, um, rights. (I should have been a lawyer)  😝


Agreed on part one. My point is that if you miss the obvious fixable changes that you _could_ have made before posting, my fixing them will not require any copyright acknowledgment or compliance. [How’s that for non-Latin legal 🐴s##t ? 🤣 ]


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Seems I'm succeeding at failing to get this thread back on track....


….DV is the Amtrak of personal audio…🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Never heard about that one.  And just as well -- I could only spin backwards at 33 1/3 with any consistency. 🙂


I thought that you were of the shellac 78 era….


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Agreed on part one. My point is that if you miss the obvious fixable changes that you _could_ have made before posting, my fixing them will not require any copyright acknowledgment or compliance. [How’s that for non-Latin legal 🐴s##t ? 🤣 ]


But if I miss something obvious, it's obvious that it _wasn't_ obvious or I would have FTFM'ed it before I posted which would obviate the need for a subsequent FTFY.  Seems_ this_ should be obvious. 😆😆


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I thought that you were of the shellac 78 era….


Actually they were round cylinders, but I won't go into that.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 30, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Actually they were round cylinders, but I won't go into that.


Oooops....FTFM, since 'round' is redundant.


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Nice!

I'll be adding the dropping resistors to the filaments as part of the mods, so if I calculated the values correctly I should get right at 6.3v with the DV plugged straight into the wall.


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-NOS...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Hmmm, $75? What?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-NOS...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Hmmm, $75? What?


ROFL!  Those suuuuuuuuck!  As do the Sylvania coin bases. Just yuck.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oooops....FTFM, since 'round' is redundant.


A fun song based on redundancy is The Big Rio Grande River by the Austin Lounge Lizards.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Those suuuuuuuuck!  As do the Sylvania coin bases. Just yuck.


Never heard much about coin bases.   But the internets seems to mostly agree with you:


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Never heard much about coin bases.   But the internets seems to mostly agree with you:


Perhaps they are best referred to as Bose Tubes:  "no highs, no lows, must be Bose."


----------



## Mr Trev

Riddle me this…
Why do coin bases suck? As best as I gathered the bases are only there for indexing - make sure you plug it in the right way


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Perhaps they are best referred to as Bose Tubes:  "no highs, no lows, must be Bose."


…and what better way to hear Bose tubes than through?…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Riddle me this…
> Why do coin bases suck? As best as I gathered the bases are only there for indexing - make sure you plug it in the right way


Maybe because they arrived late in the game as US tube production was on the way out. I dunno.  Why do Philips ECG's suck?  Perhaps the same reason.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …and what better way to hear Bose tubes than through?…


ROFL!!!

Except the sign is wrong:  it IS a garbage can.  Bet it has a twin somewhere.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!
> 
> Except the sign is wrong:  it IS a garbage can.  Bet it has a twin somewhere.


Brown-Ferris relocated it ….


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Riddle me this…
> Why do coin bases suck? As best as I gathered the bases are only there for indexing - make sure you plug it in the right way


And now a riddle for you...

Looking at the last sentence in bold, how does one know if the fuse blew because of defect, or overcurrent?  Perhaps quantum analysis is required?  😂


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> And now a riddle for you...
> 
> Looking at the last sentence in bold, how does one know if the fuse blew because of defect, or overcurrent?  Perhaps quantum analysis is required?  😂


Oh, I'm sure they have some sort of super magic decoder ring to make sure nobody is trying to pull a fast (or maybe slow) one on them


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Oh, I'm sure they have some sort of super magic decoder ring to make sure nobody is trying to pull a fast (or maybe slow) one on them


I only have a green one.  Will it work on purple fuses?  Don't want to blow anything up....


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I only have a green one.  Will it work on purple fuses?  Don't want to blow anything up....


It should.  But remember, Be Sure To Drink Your Ovaltine.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I only have a green one.  Will it work on purple fuses?  Don't want to blow anything up....


You do not want to be mistaken for the Green Hornet. If you work on ‘quantum’ testing the SR Purple fuse - - - goddammit, use the right decoding tool:🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You do not want to be mistaken for the Green Hornet. If you work on ‘quantum’ testing the SR Purple fuse - - - goddammit, use the right decoding tool:🤣


That one looks like it requires math.  I'm out.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That one looks like it requires math.  I'm out.


You really are ‘out’: there are no numbers on the code wheel…!…🙃….


----------



## therremans

Is the GE 5998a worth getting?


----------



## sam6550a

therremans said:


> Is the GE 5998a worth getting?


I have 2 of them, and are pleased with their performance. The bass is especially good, the midrange is not too forward, and the treble is slightly rolled off. Although it is a slightly higher gain than a 5998, it performs well in an Incubus amplifier and is very listenable for long periods. @Paladin79 also has tried this tube, his results should be solicited.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Is the GE 5998a worth getting?


I think so (I own four) and @Ripper2860 did a good & succinct review of it (post #9,715 of this thread).


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I have 2 of them, and are pleased with their performance. The bass is especially good, the midrange is not too forward, and the treble is slightly rolled off. Although it is a slightly higher gain than a 5998, it performs well in an Incubus amplifier and is very listenable for long periods. @Paladin79 also has tried this tube, his results should be solicited.


My advice is do not ask @bcowen for his opinion on this tube. He suffers from GE angst.

I agree totally with Sam on his assessment of this tube, I have tried half a dozen or so and was able to get some as low as $25 making it a bargain for ANY 5998.


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-NOS-NI...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Okay, I’ll get one to keep around. This guy has some, I just bought the 62/62 labeled one.


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6-8-E...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Almost linked those here yesterday. They sold. I was hesitant since they were labeled as used and had no test data.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6-8-E...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Almost linked those here yesterday. They sold. I was hesitant since they were labeled as used and had no test data.


I don't know anything about the RFT's as far as desirable years or internal construction, so these may be great deals....or not exactly's:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255056125099?hash=item3b62879cab:g:LfwAAOSwwMZgEVbt

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2654050727...RhaEZG5rlvrtnTv2cxDg|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-NOS-NI...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Okay, I’ll get one to keep around. This guy has some, I just bought the 62/62 labeled one.


Price is nice.  I think I paid $49 for the one two I have.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 1, 2022)

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6-8-E...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Almost linked those here yesterday. They sold. I was hesitant since they were labeled as used and had no test data.



These appear to be the hard to find Melz solid plate 1578s...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255340583415?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110018&algo=HOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200818142238&meid=7a507783e40d490d8b6194a4f62690c2&pid=101121&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=154820144733&itm=255340583415&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2563228&algv=default&brand=Melz&_trksid=p2563228.c101121.m1986&amdata=cksum:2553405834157a507783e40d490d8b6194a4f62690c2|enc:AQAGAAAB4IMhXTCrt8s%2B1FGPil2FdmIALclgiK9D3R1WmHydqEIZbgkZVLEXlnbIbl6HkEUPlkPJ8XQFmqCtsQC9Mwnu8hyDCM6o1hYsuCRBHXtddycKx5V64fAzeF46OOFJuxCP70Ule5SiIW%2B%2B1C7vBlzE8E0KAdCBMlvcz%2Bv0P5IK25S7bjkjgMHOH2b21Z5cPsc%2BgW%2FOdzL%2FnFNhmJ9uDF5Y78aBVqTydUBjgoFJsgxjSOUNDBgMJjrFMeUqUnjhWHAcCqs1h0m07ihZB73uZm4gZohj2zNQoVfC%2F2gn%2BNVHKL71ani4w9MdivoYB%2FKejEr11dbS8kSS7hL1efbltX1oR%2BKUu3eFpd0JEtsS%2B7XLRgaphEitshBsQr%2BsAMR%2Bcxm5jbXzVA8%2BuGZgW6T7fsOa7l9kMysKLBJkWua%2B0WVtrq%2BspPwFRkWKFQFGLq6V1MWlzOutfxHhwFKQkA332sNmFSI%2Frp8Z6MDqHU1jT39vU7v6fLdv8WC1kBWe5lE7twutIrhafOYoluSvtmVhI6SRVHXSiynJos562ex1O0pYjjCOSAJfbKYzY4YjZkKTma0SG%2Bjuw%2B2tODn%2FnKuFmSMrMhz39mew211WLPIZzHO7P1cQGXOkDJRUWtC815S3JM5Kpg%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2563228


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I don't know anything about the RFT's as far as desirable years or internal construction, so these may be great deals....or not exactly's:


As far as I've heard, many of these RFT's with the ceramic micas are really good on the whole.   At the very least, it will make a nice "different more unique" tube to add to one's collection.


----------



## therremans

Wood block? 🧐 Has anyone seen that before?

Does anyone prefer pure copper or silver plated copper for RCA? I want to buy a set.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> As far as I've heard, many of these RFT's with the ceramic micas are really good on the whole.   At the very least, it will make a nice "different more unique" tube to add to one's collection.


That's where I'd need to (personally) do a little research before jumping in.  I have a dozen or so RFT 12AU7's with round getters that I bought a long time ago and never much cared for...thin and lean and pretty screechy in the treble.  Then the usual trouble-makers in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 thread started fawning over some RFT 12A*T*7's. I was like "huh?!?"  But what they were talking about were of earlier manufacture with foil getters. So I found some 12AU7's with the foil getter on Ebay, bought a couple, and that version is _superb_. They are SO different sounding to the round getters you'd think they were made a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.   Don't want to make that mistake with the 6SN7's, so need to gather more detail first.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Wood block? 🧐 Has anyone seen that before?
> 
> Does anyone prefer pure copper or silver plated copper for RCA? I want to buy a set.


I've seen blocks of different materials on cables over the years.  Have never bought or listened to a cable with one though.

I'm a pure copper guy, although I do like Neotech's silver/gold wire.  No scientific basis or grounding whatsoever, just me being me (but I like what I like).


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> That's where I'd need to (personally) do a little research before jumping in.  I have a dozen or so RFT 12AU7's with halo getters that I bought a long time ago and never much cared for...thin and lean and pretty screechy in the treble.  Then the usual trouble-makers in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 thread started fawning over some RFT 12A*T*7's. I was like "huh?!?"  But what they were talking about were of earlier manufacture with foil getters. So I found some 12AU7's with the foil getter on Ebay, bought a couple, and that version is _superb_. They are SO different sounding to the round getters you'd think they were made a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.   Don't want to make that mistake with the 6SN7's, so need to gather more detail first.



LOL.  I hear ya.  I think in general, most any tube with foil getters has a higher probability of sounding better than halos.   Though in this case l0rdgwyn advocated for the 6sn7 version of the RFTs and I trust his ears.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Then the usual trouble-makers in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 thread started fawning over some RFT 12A*T*7's. I was like "huh?!?"  But what they were talking about were of earlier manufacture with foil getters. So I found some 12AU7's with the foil getter on Ebay, bought a couple, and that version is _superb_.



Yeah - those usual troublemakers on the MJ2 thread...the same ones who steam rolled the LP thread are pretty hardcore when it comes to the 12xx7 variants.  But damn if they do know their stuff and have taken caps modding and adapter tube rolling to an artform.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Yeah - those usual troublemakers on the MJ2 thread...the same ones who steam rolled the LP thread are pretty hardcore when it comes to the 12xx7 variants.  But damn if they do know their stuff and have taken caps modding and adapter tube rolling to an artform.


True that.  But they're still trouble-makers....for my wallet.


----------



## therremans (Feb 1, 2022)

*Bendix JAN-6080WB / National Union JAN-7193*

The 7193 are some of the first tubes I ever bought for an adapter. I immediately loved how detailed they were competed to the 6SN7s I had. I later realized they can be a bit lacking in the mids and kept rolling to find others I preferred. Re-visited today with the Bendix to help out with that low end. They have a clean and crisp sound, mids are still hidden a bit but it’s not too bad..the Bendix helps out quite a bit. They sound good with the right songs. They’re clean sounding but aren’t the best in detail retrieval. My biggest complaint is that vocals are still a bit thin. They’re just not that neutral. I could live without them.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Bendix JAN-6080WB / National Union JAN-7193*
> 
> The 7193 are some of the first tubes I ever bought for an adapter. I immediately loved how detailed they were competed to the 6SN7s I had. I later realized they can be a bit lacking in the mids and kept rolling to find others I preferred. Re-visited today with the Bendix to help out with that low end. They have a clean and crisp sound, mids are still hidden a bit but it’s not too bad..the Bendix helps out quite a bit. They sound good with the right songs. They’re clean sounding but aren’t the best in detail retrieval. My biggest complaint is that vocals are still a bit thin. They’re just not that neutral. I could live without them.


I like the Ken-Rads better, but still not in my top 5 10.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I like the Ken-Rads better, but still not in my top 5 10.


Had those initially but sold them as I preferred the NU. I’m going to sell off some tubes this month. especially some of my duplicates.

So I ordered some things today., a new RCA cable and a new nano fuse.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Had those initially but sold them as I preferred the NU. I’m going to sell off some tubes this month. especially some of my duplicates.
> 
> So I ordered some things today., a new RCA cable and a new nano fuse.


I was thinking of selling off some myself, but just the ones I don't like.  Maybe stash up on some more Fotons just in case I live to 150.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I was thinking of selling off some myself, but just the ones I don't like.  Maybe stash up on some more Fotons just in case I live to 150.



I just put up the last of my tubes up on sale on classifieds.  Last pair of 6j5g w/adapter.  and 2 pairs of the GEC CV4079 w/adapter.   It's been quite a run through the rabbit hole.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I was thinking of selling off some myself, but just the ones I don't like.  Maybe stash up on some more Fotons just in case I live to 150.


Yeah, I have a good amount that I can live without.

Here’s a lot of Fotons https://www.ebay.com/itm/5x-Foton-R...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I just put up the last of my tubes up on sale on classifieds.  Last pair of 6j5g w/adapter.  and 2 pairs of the GEC CV4079 w/adapter.   It's been quite a run through the rabbit hole.


You’re selling off all your tubes? Which amp did you get to allow this?


----------



## Slade01 (Feb 1, 2022)

therremans said:


> You’re selling off all your tubes? Which amp did you get to allow this?


I picked up an SW51+ amp.  It's a Simple SET amp, the sound from this amp is actually dead on to what I was trying to achieve with the dual 6J5 pairing on the DV with that clarity/detail and dynamics.  I think it's just the nature maybe of the SET implementation vs OTL, but my tube journey was always gravitating towards this point.

Tube rolling on the SW51 is very limited with the EF184/6EJ7 variants.  But i'm cool with that - i'll be able to get back to the music.  Lol.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I picked up an SW51+ amp.  It's a Simple SET amp, the sound from this amp is actually dead on to what I was trying to achieve with the dual 6J5 pairing on the DV with that clarity/detail and dynamics.  I think it's just the nature maybe of the SET implementation vs OTL, but my tube journey was always gravitating towards this point.
> 
> Tube rolling on the SW51 is very limited with the EF184/6EJ7 variants.  But i'm cool with that - i'll be able to get back to the music.  Lol.


Do you know of a good website for specs/price? So you like the sound with just the stock tubes I assume. Does rolling tubes offer a smaller range of change?


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Do you know of a good website for specs/price? So you like the sound with just the stock tubes I assume. Does rolling tubes offer a smaller range of change?


I'll give you some details in PM.  But out of the gate, the amp is really good with the stock tubes.  I just got it recently, so not sure about the range personally, but assuming it does from reading from others' impressions.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> I have 2 of them, and are pleased with their performance. The bass is especially good, the midrange is not too forward, and the treble is slightly rolled off. Although it is a slightly higher gain than a 5998, it performs well in an Incubus amplifier and is very listenable for long periods. @Paladin79 also has tried this tube, his results should be solicited.


True, I remember a test been done by 3 members around here 😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Wood block? 🧐 Has anyone seen that before?
> 
> Does anyone prefer pure copper or silver plated copper for RCA? I want to buy a set.


Never saw wood before and I as far as I know gold plated is the way to go, the inner cable count too


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> You’re selling off all your tubes? Which amp did you get to allow this?


Definitely this amp 🤩🤩🤩
https://www.violectric.de/en/products/headphone-preamps/violectric-hpa-v550-pro


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Definitely this amp 🤩🤩🤩
> https://www.violectric.de/en/products/headphone-preamps/violectric-hpa-v550-pro


No tubes?  Heresy!  You take that back.  Or @Paladin79 may send some of his Russian "friends" to pay you a visit.  😂😅


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No tubes?  Heresy!  You take that back.  Or @Paladin79 may send some of his Russian "friends" to pay you a visit.  😂😅


They will OTK you (Obliterate The Knees)…


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 2, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> They will OTK you (Obliterate The Knees)…


Now, now I mostly know Russian women and only one of their families is connected. If I ever run into trouble in Chicago I have contacts who can help.  

You want a toe, I can get you a toe by 3 O'clock.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now I mostly know Russian women and only one of their families is connected. If I ever run into trouble in Chicago I have contacts who can help.
> 
> You want a toe, I can get you a toe by 3 O'clock.


…and during Yuletide, the Russians send ‘missiletoe’…🇷🇺…⚒️…🚀…🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No tubes?  Heresy!  You take that back.  Or @Paladin79 may send some of his Russian "friends" to pay you a visit.  😂😅


The Melz gang 😄😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now I mostly know Russian women and only one of their families is connected. If I ever run into trouble in Chicago I have contacts who can help.
> 
> You want a toe, I can get you a toe by 3 O'clock.


Russian women !! not sure how wise to admit it in writing. such news may reach the pottery factory 🤐🤐


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> The Melz gang 😄😄


East Side Story: the Melz vs the Fotons…🎼…🔪…🗡…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …and during Yuletide, the Russians send ‘missiletoe’…🇷🇺…⚒️…🚀…🤣🤣🤣


They are currently too busy on Ukrain's border 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> East Side Story: the Melz vs the Fotons…🎼…🔪…🗡…


Our Hoarders buddies 😁


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now I mostly know Russian women and only one of their families is connected….


Paladin79 —> Paladin0079 getting the prize solid-plate nib/nos Melz (1955-1965) _from Russia, with love…🇷🇺❤️😎…_


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Paladin79 —> Paladin0079 getting the prize solid-plate nib/nos Melz (1955-1965) _from Russia, with love…🇷🇺❤️😎…_


@bcowen getting the Foton's 🏆🏆


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Russian women !! not sure how wise to admit it in writing. such news may reach the pottery factory 🤐🤐


…or “a tube in my hand guarantees peace for husband”…😏


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …or “a tube in my hand guarantees peace for husband”…😏


Some bribes should be shipped soon 🎁


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 3, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Paladin79 —> Paladin0079 getting the prize solid-plate nib/nos Melz (1955-1965) _from Russia, with love…🇷🇺❤️😎…_


You should really like it, I sometimes get a little background noise with 63's but never with the solid plate version. Provided the solder in the pins are good with either model they can be wondrous. I believe I misread that lol, I could send you one to hear of course.

One of my amps arrived safely in Texas, just before the snow. I included a couple Melz just to give a gentleman a taste of the amps capabilities.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Russian women !! not sure how wise to admit it in writing. such news may reach the pottery factory 🤐🤐


My wife knows them lol, one is a brilliant mathematician who competed with me in card tournaments.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My wife knows them lol, one is a brilliant mathematician who competed with me in card tournaments.


Was not worried about the scientific skills 😉


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Was not worried about the scientific skills 😉


LOL
I am sure you have both male and female friends.  Anyway back to tubes.

I did locate some 57 Fotons Bill sent me and they do not have the ribbed plates. I believe at some point we figured out that after re-soldering the pins some of the non ribbed sounded better than expected, maybe up to 1959 or so. That is to the best of my recollection. Bill did locate a ribbed 57 so some are out there. Maybe they ran out of the smooth plates and substituted the older ones, I suspect that of Melz on certain tubes as well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL
> I am sure you have both male and female friends.  Anyway back to tubes.
> 
> I did locate some 57 Fotons Bill sent me and they do not have the ribbed plates. I believe at some point we figured out that after re-soldering the pins some of the non ribbed sounded better than expected, maybe up to 1959 or so. That is to the best of my recollection. Bill did locate a ribbed 57 so some are out there. Maybe they ran out of the smooth plates and substituted the older ones, I suspect that of Melz on certain tubes as well.


The 1950's Fotons sound better to me than any of the '60's I have.  The internal construction between them is identical, except that the plates on the '60, '61, and '65's I have are a little lighter in color and have a bit rougher texture to the matte finish.  Don't know if that was a purposeful change to the material or possibly just a manufacturing variance, but the '60's lack that rhythmic drive I like so much and can get hot in the treble on some recordings (which the '50's never do).


----------



## therremans

GEC 6080 / Fivre 6SN7GT (NOS)

So far it’s apparent that does something special with the mids. Still want to burn it in before I say much.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> So far it’s apparent that does something special with the mids.* Still want to burn it in before I say much.*


You gotta be careful saying that around Chinese made amps. I've heard stories where the amp has literally burst into flames


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> You gotta be careful saying that around Chinese made amps. I've heard stories where the amp has literally burst into flames


 I thought that was only ones @JKDJedi modded. Speaking of Chinese, how’s the DV part swap going @bcowen?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I thought that was only ones @JKDJedi modded. Speaking of Chinese, how’s the DV part swap going @bcowen?


It's further along than it was.  Does that count?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It's just humming along.  Does that count?


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## therremans (Feb 10, 2022)

Like new open box, untested.🧐 Looks like a new bulb to me. And what’s that confusing return policy? The auction says no returns accepted.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Like new open box, untested.🧐 Looks like a new bulb to me. And what’s that confusing return policy? The auction says no returns accepted.


ROFL!  That's "pulled from a component" dirt, not "sitting on the shelf" dirt.


----------



## Mr Trev

…and what original accessories came with tubes?


----------



## therremans

Mr Trev said:


> …and what original accessories came with tubes?


That’s just the default eBay description of open box and I was pointing out the sellers misuse of the word.

I did write them a question for entertainment. Haven’t heard back yet.


----------



## therremans

*GE 5998A*

I’ve been letting the NOS GE 5998A play in for the last couple of days..

Okay, is it a good value for $30? Yeah it is.
The high frequencies are a bit crunchy/brittle/harsh but they are present and not overly muddy like with some other output tubes (RCA) at this price range, as it’s decently dynamic. It’s been pretty versatile overall and has a mediocre soundstage (not highly accurate). I will also add that the sound leans colder and clinical.

Not a bad tube, certainly better than many at this price. GE did okay. But above the $30-$50 price, you may want to consider others. I would still take a 7236 over this. The 7236 will offer more warmth, accuracy and an overall more compelling/moving sound. Now to go back to a low price point..




Consider the *Thomson 6080WA*. The Thomson is a good comparison here, as it can be had for a low cost (I paid $15 for mine last year) and has a similar open high range from a budget price. The Thomson is underrated. The top end harshness is gone and I think the overall sound is more accurate, smooth and the analog warmth is there. The downside? The Thomson is notoriously top heavy. Not a lot of moving low end here and that’s a shame.


----------



## SHIMACM

On my way.

I'm looking forward to comparing it to Darkvoice.


----------



## therremans (Feb 10, 2022)

$450 pair of 7N7 https://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-E...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Ripper2860

'HuntAndPeck' Auctions should be renamed to 'BendOverAndSqueal' Auctions.  😏


----------



## bcowen (Feb 10, 2022)

therremans said:


> $450 pair of 7N7 https://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-E...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Added to my watch list...just so I can see what they actually go for.  At that price I could sell off half my Frankie stash and pay cash for a new car...even at more than list price.  LOL!

And even funnier.  Not even a Frankie.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 10, 2022)

But... But...  But they are Frankies.  We have you to blame for this insane price -- *Frankenhoarder!!!*


----------



## bcowen (Feb 10, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> 'HuntAndPeck' Auctions should be renamed to 'BendOverAndSqueal' Auctions.  😏







Well, that explains at least part of it.  Perhaps some rubber gloves would be prudent for whoever gets them next.  😃


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> But... But...  But they are Frankies.  We have you to blame for this insane price -- *Frankenhoarder!!!*


Whoa, pal.  I'll be happy to sell pairs of my Frankies to anyone that wants them for half of that.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Whoa, pal.  I'll be happy to sell pairs of my Frankies to anyone that wants them for half of that.  🤣


Frankie goes to NC…!!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> 'HuntAndPeck' Auctions should be renamed to 'BendOverAndSqueal' Auctions.  😏


….how about *Bangmebang ?*


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Consider the *Thomson 6080WA*. The Thomson is a good comparison here, as it can be had for a low cost (I paid $15 for mine last year) and has a similar open high range from a budget price. The Thomson is underrated. The top end harshness is gone and I think the overall sound is more accurate, smooth and the analog warmth is there. The downside? The Thomson is notoriously top heavy. Not a lot of moving low end here and that’s a shame.



Yeah - you'd be lucky to find the thompson 6080 still at 15.   I think currently they are about double that, and usually sources from europe which makes shipping not as cheap.  So the value proposition is greatly reduced in my opinion.  Better to invest in a legit tung sol 6080 at that point.

Also - while looking - here's something you don't see every day (at least I dont) -- a Hytron branded 6080.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284354093673?hash=item4234d32269:g:wbUAAOSw-M9g3MyF


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Yeah - you'd be lucky to find the thompson 6080 still at 15.   I think currently they are about double that, and usually sources from europe which makes shipping not as cheap.  So the value proposition is greatly reduced in my opinion.  Better to invest in a legit tung sol 6080 at that point.
> 
> Also - while looking - here's something you don't see every day (at least I dont) -- a Hytron branded 6080.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284354093673?hash=item4234d32269:g:wbUAAOSw-M9g3MyF


Yeah great point, I forgot about the TS 6080 ha (with correct design) that is still the winner for the money. They also often come up in pairs or larger groups for even more savings. I have three that I got for next to nothing.

The Hytron looks like a Sylvania, you probably figured that out. I haven’t heard one (or a Raytheon branded one).


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 10, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Yeah - you'd be lucky to find the thompson 6080 still at 15.   I think currently they are about double that, and usually sources from europe which makes shipping not as cheap.  So the value proposition is greatly reduced in my opinion.  Better to invest in a legit tung sol 6080 at that point.


Consider this, I did ($22.75 ea):


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yeah great point, I forgot about the TS 6080 ha (with correct design) that is still the winner for the money. They also often come up in pairs or larger groups for even more savings. I have three that I got for next to nothing.
> 
> The Hytron looks like a Sylvania, you probably figured that out. I haven’t heard one (or a Raytheon branded one).



Yup the Hytron definitely looks like a Sylvania.  



jonathan c said:


> Consider this, I did ($22.75 ea):



Definitely more in-line for its value, though I don't love the Thomson 6080 that much.   Lol.  I'd soon rather take my 20 dollars for a bottle or case of something.....


----------



## therremans




----------



## Ripper2860

Expensive at 1/2 the price!  😄


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


ROFL!  I got the same offer.  Have an idea...let's split it.  $150 each and we each get 1 tube. And that would make it only 7x - 10x the going market price.  🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Expensive at 1/2 the price!  😄


I would counteroffer at $30 if I didn't already have a boatload lots some a few in the stash.  🤣


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I would counteroffer at $30 if I didn't already have a boatload lots some a few *hundred *in the stash.  🤣


FTFY...


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


A hell of a Valentine’s Day gift…from a hunter & pecker…🤭…


----------



## therremans

I had to factor in those extra high shipping costs. Wish me luck guys.


----------



## Ripper2860

Now this is more like it...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tall-7N7-S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I had to factor in those extra high shipping costs. Wish me luck guys.


ROFL!  You could at least have done $30.  Cheapskate.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  You could at least have done $30.  Cheapskate.


Wait I thought the plan was that you out bid me at $30, and we split them.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Now this is more like it...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tall-7N7-S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Ahhhh....the market has normalized again.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Wait I thought the plan was that you out bid me at $30, and we split them.


Oh.  Yeah.  Good idea.  But will it sound as good if it's only $15 instead of $150?  I think not.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Now this is more like it...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tall-7N7-S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Frankie re-enters Earth’s orbit…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> 🤣Frankie re-enters Earth’s orbit…


Yeah, what you said.  Before, it was Frankie Goes To LoonyTown (or Texas).


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, what you said.  Before, it was Frankie Goes To LoonyTown (or Texas).


It actually was ‘Frankie goes to NC’ 🤣🤣🤣; give Frankie credit, he gets around!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It actually was ‘Frankie goes to NC’ 🤣🤣🤣; give Frankie credit, he gets around!


Frankie only comes to NC for barbeque.  😁


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Frankie only comes to NC for barbeque.  😁


Not to cheer on the Tar Heels? What a tube!🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 14, 2022)

Well, I guess I'm going to find out if this HuntandPeck Auctions is the real deal.  I saw they had 2x Sylvania 7236 tubes listed.  They are highly regarded, and I have one that I am quite fond of, but it has developed a buzz in one channel.  The H&P Auction listing was for $150 and I offered $80 for one tube via PM a few days ago.  Crickets.  I formally made a best offer at $100 for both and it was accepted, LOL!!  $100 for 2 x of these 7236s is actually a pretty good deal -- if they measure well.  The pics look sure look like NIB to me.  Fingers crossed and I will report back with the quality of their listing, but it seems that they will take a reasonable offer -- at least to the extent that they think it is reasonable.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255376854478


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I guess I'm going to find out if this HuntandPeck Auctions is the real deal.  I saw they had 2x Sylvania 7236 tubes listed.  They are highly regarded, and I have one that I am quite fond of, but it has developed a buzz in one channel.  The N&P Auction listing was for $150 and I offered $80 for one tube via PM a few days ago.  Crickets.  I formally made a best offer at $100 for both and it was accepted, LOL!!  $100 for 2 x of these 7236s is actually a pretty good deal -- if they measure well.  The pics look sure look like NIB to me.  Fingers crossed and I will report back with the quality of their listing, but it seems that they will take a reasonable offer -- at least to the extent that they think it is reasonable.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255376854478


May not have been the reasonable-ness of your first offer -- they may have not wanted to split up the pair.  In any event, $100 for a pair of those is a _great _deal.  Hope they test out nicely.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I thought that was only ones @JKDJedi modded. Speaking of Chinese, how’s the DV part swap going @bcowen?


hah!! Well ... 6 shots into this teguila bottle.... and... that Tung Sol 7N7 you recommended is sounding STELLAR....  . I don't think Tung Sol made these...but.. a Frankie it is .. and in EXCELLENT CONDITION... it's cuisine remains Supreme...


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> hah!! Well ... 6 shots into this teguila bottle.... and... that Tung Sol 7N7 you recommended is sounding STELLAR....  . I don't think Tung Sol made these...but.. a Frankie it is .. and in EXCELLENT CONDITION... it's cuisine remains Supreme...



I guess 6 shots of tequila is guaranteed to add that sparkle and soundstage.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> hah!! Well ... 6 shots into this teguila bottle.... and... that Tung Sol 7N7 you recommended is sounding STELLAR....  . I don't think Tung Sol made these...but.. a Frankie it is .. and in EXCELLENT CONDITION... it's cuisine remains Supreme...


ROFL!  But then 6 shots of tequila might even make a GE _not _suck.  Well, maybe 8 shots depending on the time interval between them.   🤣😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> hah!! Well ... 6 shots into this teguila bottle.... and... that Tung Sol 7N7 you recommended is sounding STELLAR....  .* I don't think Tung Sol made these*...but.. a Frankie it is .. and in EXCELLENT CONDITION... it's cuisine remains Supreme...


Nope, it's a Sylvania to be sure.  But a Frankie is a Frankie regardless of how it's clothed, even ugly clothes.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Nope, it's a Sylvania to be sure.  But a Frankie is a Frankie regardless of how it's clothed, even ugly clothes.


well... if you see one cloth as a Tung Sol..... grab it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> well... if you see one cloth as a Tung Sol..... grab it.


I'm missing one of those.  I should be ashamed of myself.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm missing one of those.  I should be ashamed of myself.


hah.... I got something you don't have... 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> hah.... I got something you don't have... 🤣🤣


Yeah, I'm Jones'n over that tequila right now.  Care to share?  🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm missing one of those.  I should be ashamed of myself.


hah.... I got something you don't have...


bcowen said:


> Yeah, I'm Jones'n over that tequila right now.  Care to share?  🤣


my brother... if you were here... I'd be one with the world right now .... you complete me.. "# truth be told


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> hah.... I got something you don't have...
> 
> my brother... if you were here... I'd be one with the world right now .... you complete me.. "# truth be told


Ditto, man!  

And if my Lear wasn't in for maintenance right now, I'd be on the way.  😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> hah!! Well ... 6 shots into this teguila bottle.... and... that Tung Sol 7N7 you recommended is sounding STELLAR....  . I don't think Tung Sol made these...but.. a Frankie it is .. and in EXCELLENT CONDITION... it's cuisine remains Supreme...


Six shots and barely a dent…Lilliput?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Ditto, man!
> 
> And if my Lear wasn't in for maintenance right now, I'd be on the way.  😂😂


If anyone should know the importance of and have backup, it’s you…


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 13, 2022)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  But then 6 shots of tequila a revolver  might even make a GE _not _suck. 🤣😂


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If anyone should know the importance of and have backup, it’s you…


The only backup is a commercial flight.  😫  Similar to having a Philips ECG 6080 as a backup for a WE 421A. They both do kind of the same thing, just that one sucks a lot more than the other.  😳


----------



## JKDJedi

all that and 8 missed the halftime show ... God damnit.... #pass3d out... what's the dam score?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> all that and 8 missed the halftime show ... God damnit.... #pass3d out... what's the dam score?


LA: 13 
Cinci: 17


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The only backup is a commercial flight.  😫 Similar to having a Philips ECG 6080 as a backup for a WE 421A. They both do kind of the same thing just that one sucks a lot more than the other. 😳


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## JKDJedi

So I've sampled every tube known to man....or most of them that are worth sampling.... am I missing out not sampling the Brimar?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> So I've sampled every tube known to man....or most of them that are worth sampling.... am I missing out not sampling the Brimar?


YES !


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 14, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> So I've sampled every tube known to man....or most of them that are worth sampling.... am I missing out not sampling the Brimar?


Absolutely! Go to the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads to find out about Brimar, Footscray, and other wonders of the tube world…


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> Absolutely! Go to the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads to find out about Brimar, Footscray, and other wonders of the tube world…



@JKDJedi if you go to the Mjo 2 threads - you may get the fever to not just get tubes...but a matching amp to boot, namely to get a unicorn mjolnir 2.   You wallet will hate you.   Regarding Brimar tubes - the 6SN7 types, not many variations out there, and pricey.   Watch out for the Brimar "Foreign" tubes...those are just other tubes rebranded with the brimar name.   Although, of those, there are ones that are Fivre made, which are definitely also worth a look.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Absolutely!* Go to the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads* to find out about Brimar, Footscray, and other wonders of the tube world…


Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!   😱😱


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!   😱😱


Did you have a GE nightmare that caused you to post at 3:45 AM…poor thing!…🙁…


----------



## bcowen (Feb 14, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Did you have a GE nightmare that caused you to post at 3:45 AM…poor thing!…🙁…


ROFL!  It wasn't a nightmare but more of a delayed blessing. Couldn't sleep, so went back to work on the DV mods.  Had a crap GE (like there's some other kind) in the new socket to keep the inner contacts aligned while I soldered to it.  Got done with the socket, and when I pulled the GE out it slipped out of my hand and hit dead center on a 12x12 ceramic tile I had on the floor.  Didn't shatter, but the getter went white instantly.  Enough impact to break a seal somewhere.  On the plus side it probably won't sound any worse than it did before, and on the other plus side it will still work just fine for soldering sockets.


----------



## SHIMACM

It's friends, my new toy has arrived.

My Crack has Speedball installed.

First impressions are faster, more detailed and balanced sound than Darkvoice.

Looking forward to starting the valve roll.


----------



## SHIMACM

Does anyone use Darkvoice as a preamp?

Do you know if it works well?


----------



## g3n3r1c (Feb 14, 2022)

SHIMACM said:


> First impressions are faster, more detailed and balanced sound than Darkvoice.


Congrats. Yes, IMO the Crack is technically a step up from the DV. I strongly suggest that you try a shouldered (coke-bottle) power tube instead of the 6080. I'm running a Svetlana 6N13S currently. To my ears it becomes smoother (less rumbly) and more natural.

I also tend to prefer long plate 12AU7 tubes over short plate tubes, as they sound more neutral and less-bright. The Crack can lean toward brightness with some tubes, or at least an extended high range.



SHIMACM said:


> Does anyone use Darkvoice as a preamp?


Yes. It works well, and mainly adds 3D depth and a sense of expanded space. [That's mainly what tube harmonics do.] The DV is a solid value as a preamp, just check the price of typical stereo-oriented tube preamps.


----------



## pravous

SHIMACM said:


> It's friends, my new toy has arrived.
> 
> My Crack has Speedball installed.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the BHC.  I found the speedball upgrade to be a pretty clear improvement as well.  GEC 6080 in the power slot?   I recommend the mullard cv4003 for the input tube.   Of the few 12au7s I rolled I liked that one the best.


----------



## musicinmymind

Does Crack support 6SN7 for input tube?


----------



## pravous

musicinmymind said:


> Does Crack support 6SN7 for input tube?


Yes you can run 6SN7s with an adapter.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> Does anyone use Darkvoice as a preamp?
> 
> Do you know if it works well?


I am and it does a much better job as a pre-amp than a headphone amp in fact. Important is to set the volume a bit less than 1/4 all the time. A better and warmer dedicated pre-amp would be a Yaqin SD-CD3 driven by dual 6SN7 (Raytheon in my setup - @bcowen loved ones).


----------



## SHIMACM

g3n3r1c said:


> Congrats. Yes, IMO the Crack is technically a step up from the DV. I strongly suggest that you try a shouldered (coke-bottle) power tube instead of the 6080. I'm running a Svetlana 6N13S currently. To my ears it becomes smoother (less rumbly) and more natural.
> 
> I also tend to prefer long plate 12AU7 tubes over short plate tubes, as they sound more neutral and less-bright. The Crack can lean toward brightness with some tubes, or at least an extended high range.
> 
> ...



Shoulder bottle I have a Chatham 6as7g which is very good.

I have some other exceptional power valves like: Bendix 6080, Tung-Sol 6080, Mullard 6080, GEC CV4079, Sylvania 6080 GB.

That's the perk of being with Darkvoice for some time.

It was able to accumulate many good valves.

Regarding the driver valve, I intend to use only the ones I already have.

I have a lot of good valves from the 6sn7/6j5g(t)/l63/6c5g families.

I don't know that I want to leave the valve house of the 12au7 family.


----------



## SHIMACM

pravous said:


> Congrats on the BHC.  I found the speedball upgrade to be a pretty clear improvement as well.  GEC 6080 in the power slot?   I recommend the mullard cv4003 for the input tube.   Of the few 12au7s I rolled I liked that one the best.



It's a GE that came with it. LOL.

I took the photo as soon as I installed it.

But I quickly kicked it out of the amplifier.


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> I am and it does a much better job as a pre-amp than a headphone amp in fact. Important is to set the volume a bit less than 1/4 all the time. A better and warmer dedicated pre-amp would be a Yaqin SD-CD3 driven by dual 6SN7 (Raytheon in my setup - @bcowen loved ones).



Thanks for the tip.

I don't intend to sell Darkvoice, but it will probably work as a preamp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> Thanks for the tip.
> 
> I don't intend to sell Darkvoice, but it will probably work as a preamp.


It will but you will be looping inside the volume circuit of the DV.


----------



## SHIMACM

HTSkywalker said:


> It will but you will be looping inside the volume circuit of the DV.



I didn't understand what you meant.

My native language is Portuguese.

Could you explain it to me in other words?


----------



## SHIMACM

I think I'm the only one in Brazil that has a Crack. LOL


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I think I'm the only one in Brazil that has a Crack. LOL


OMG!  How does everyone else go, um, #2?  🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> I didn't understand what you meant.
> 
> My native language is Portuguese.
> 
> Could you explain it to me in other words?


What I mean is normally with a classic pre-amp setup, the same audio signal should go in and pass through the audio circuit (tubes in the DV case) and again go out without passing through the volume circuit so the volume is controlled by the audio original audio source and not the DV.
In the DV case, there is no way to avoid it passing through the DV volume circuit adding a 2nd volume circuit in the path.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> OMG!  How does everyone else go, um, #2?  🤣🤣


----------



## Ripper2860

@bcowen still refers to pee-pee as 'número um' and poo-poo as 'número dois'.  How quaint.


----------



## pravous

SHIMACM said:


> It's a GE that came with it. LOL.
> 
> I took the photo as soon as I installed it.
> 
> But I quickly kicked it out of the amplifier.


I too had a GE as my stock tube.  It was relabeled as a Dumont.  It wasn’t until I learned about the bcowen dots of quality that I realized it was a GE.
I also managed to acquire bcowens second favorite the Phillips ECG in my first tube acquisition.  Came in the “bag of 12au7” that I bought with a Mullard 6080 I found in a Craigslist add.


----------



## Slade01

pravous said:


> I too had a GE as my stock tube.  It was relabeled as a Dumont.  It wasn’t until I learned about the bcowen dots of quality that I realized it was a GE.
> I also managed to acquire bcowens second favorite the Phillips ECG in my first tube acquisition.  Came in the “bag of 12au7” that I bought with a Mullard 6080 I found in a Craigslist add.


You are so lucky going 2 for 2 in your first tube outings.   Remind me never to stand by you in a lightning storm.....


----------



## bcowen

pravous said:


> I too had a GE as my stock tube.  It was relabeled as a Dumont.  It wasn’t until I learned about the bcowen dots of quality that I realized it was a GE.
> I also managed to acquire bcowens second favorite the Phillips ECG in my first tube acquisition.  Came in the “bag of 12au7” that I bought with a Mullard 6080 I found in a Craigslist add.


The Philips ECG 12AU7 is only slightly less horrid than the 5814 (which is supposed to be a higher spec 12AU7).  Now don't anybody fall out of their chair when I say this, but I have yet to hear any GE as awful as either of those two,


----------



## HeatFan12

Very Nice!

Going on 14 years since I started this thread.  Glad to see it still getting some love.  I'm not active anymore on HF.  I sold most of my amps.  But kept the DV336SE and all my adapters and many tubes.

Last time I was here, someone told me that dual triodes were sooo 90s and outdated.  lol

Dual triodes will always have a place and always going back to them is fun.  Right now a modest RCA 6080 & RCA 5692 rocking some Beyers.  Nope, dual triodes are not dead nor will they ever be.  

UT, if you are still on here, much love brother!


----------



## Slade01

HeatFan12 said:


> Very Nice!
> 
> Going on 14 years since I started this thread.  Glad to see it still getting some love.  I'm not active anymore on HF.  I sold most of my amps.  But kept the DV336SE and all my adapters and many tubes.
> 
> ...



@UntilThen stopped by a few weeks ago.   He's definitely still around giving sage advice!   

Save for a very select few 6SN7s, Dual Triodes are definitely the way to go on (but not limited to) the DV!


----------



## UntilThen

HeatFan12 said:


> UT, if you are still on here, much love brother!



Thanks HF and HF can mean Head-Fi, HiFi or HeatFan.   

I am using dual triodes. See the front brown base driver tube in the picture? It's a Tung Sol 6SU7gty.


----------



## Mr Trev

Inane thought o the day…
We have 12AT7, 12AU7, 12AX7. What happened to 12AV7 & 12AW7?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Inane thought o the day…
> We have 12AT7, 12AU7, 12AX7. What happened to 12AV7 & 12AW7?


There is a 12AV7, but more commonly talked about as a 5965.   Gain kind of smack dab in between a 12AU7 and a 12AT7.  I've never seen or heard of a 12AW7.  There's also a 6SU7 and a 6SV7, but no 6SW7.  Maybe folks back then didn't like W's or something (and George W. Bush wasn't even born yet).    

https://tube-data.com/sheets/127/1/12AV7.pdf


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> There is a 12AV7, but more commonly talked about as a 5965.   Gain kind of smack dab in between a 12AU7 and a 12AT7.  I've never seen or heard of a 12AW7.  There's also a 6SU7 and a 6SV7, but no 6SW7.  Maybe folks back then didn't like W's or something (and George W. Bush wasn't even born yet).
> 
> https://tube-data.com/sheets/127/1/12AV7.pdf



Click the link and then you've seen all the heavenly glory that is the 12AW7

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_12aw7.html


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Click the link and then you've seen all the heavenly glory that is the 12AW7
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_12aw7.html


ACCKKK!!  A pentode!  No wonder I've never seen one....I didn't want to scorch my eyes.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Maybe folks back then didn't like W's or something (and George W. Bush wasn't even born yet).


…perhaps WW-I and WW-II sufficed to cause avoidance of the ‘W’ 🤷🏻‍♂️…….(and the ‘world wide web’ being a half-century later…🤔 🤣)


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> There is a 12AV7, but more commonly talked about as a 5965.   Gain kind of smack dab in between a 12AU7 and a 12AT7.


…I recall that, last October, Head-Fier @G0rt was successfully (enjoyably) rolling 5965s in his Schiit Valhalla II…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …I recall that, last October, Head-Fier @G0rt was successfully (enjoyably) rolling 5965s in his Schiit Valhalla II…


I've got some 5965's in the stash.  Sylvanias I think.  I bought them probably 25 years ago but don't remember if I ever listened to them.  That's bad, I suppose.  🤣

Same pinout as the other 12A's....perhaps I should try one.  The Incubus didn't like the (much) higher gain of the 12AT7, but perhaps the 5965 is just low(er) enough that it'll work.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I've got some 5965's in the stash.  Sylvanias I think.  I bought them probably 25 years ago but don't remember if I ever listened to them.  That's bad, I suppose.  🤣
> 
> Same pinout as the other 12A's....perhaps I should try one.  The Incubus didn't like the (much) higher gain of the 12AT7, but perhaps the 5965 is just low(er) enough that it'll work.


Lemme know if you try em in your Vali and are any good


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Lemme know if you try em in your Vali and are any good


Going to be hard to beat the Footscray in the Vali, but you never know.  Then again, in a $150 amp a $10 tube makes a wee bit more sense than a $120 one.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I've got some 5965's in the stash.  Sylvanias I think.  I bought them probably 25 years ago but don't remember if I ever listened to them.  That's bad, I suppose.  🤣
> 
> Same pinout as the other 12A's....perhaps I should try one.  The Incubus didn't like the (much) higher gain of the 12AT7, but perhaps the 5965 is just low(er) enough that it'll work.


Incubus is apparently designed to utilize the gain area of the 6SN7, not the higher gain of the 12AT7. Kudos to @Paladin79 for a great design.


----------



## Ripper2860

12AU7 works fabulously with Incubus.  😏


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> 12AU7 works fabulously with Incubus.  😏


12au7 gain is close to 6sn7.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes it is and provides another world of possibilities.  😉


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Incubus is apparently designed to utilize the gain area of the 6SN7, not the higher gain of the 12AT7. Kudos to @Paladin79 for a great design.


Yup, and fortunately my memory sucks.   I have 5963's, not 5965's.  The 5963 has a gain of 21 versus the 6SN7 gain of 20 and the 12AU7 gain of 19 - 20 (depending on which data sheet you look at) so these should work just fine in both the Incubus and Vali. I'll give one a whirl tomorrow.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Incubus is apparently designed to utilize the gain area of the 6SN7, not the higher gain of the 12AT7. *Kudos to @Paladin79 for a great design.*


Roger that!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Incubus is apparently designed to utilize the gain area of the 6SN7, not the higher gain of the 12AT7. Kudos to @Paladin79 for a great design.


It was definitely made for the 6SN7. I wanted to build a few more but the Russian transformers I prefer do not seem to make it through the USPS right now.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 18, 2022)

Damn you, Dejoy! 😡


----------



## Paladin79

I have enough parts to build one more and I do have a loaner I am sending around. It was in Texas not long ago.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> It was definitely made for the 6SN7. I wanted to build a few more but the Russian transformers I prefer do not seem to make it through the USPS right now.


I’m sure it’s due to the tension in the region. I wouldn’t even attempt to get tubes shipped from there unless you personally know your seller.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I’m sure it’s due to the tension in the region. I wouldn’t even attempt to get tubes shipped from there unless you personally know your seller.


I know the seller and have dealt with him at least a dozen times in the past. The package left Russia in December before some of the current tension. The sender showed it in the US, USPS said it was in Chicago, then they changed the info later and said it was still in Russia!!!! When I asked for detailed tracking they just read to me what I can read for myself, no doubt they lost it or it is still clearing customs in Chicago, hard to say lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know the seller and have dealt with him at least a dozen times in the past. The package left Russia in December before some of the current tension. The sender showed it in the US, USPS said it was in Chicago, then they changed the info later and said it was still in Russia!!!! When I asked for detailed tracking they just read to me what I can read for myself, no doubt they lost it or it is still clearing customs in Chicago, hard to say lol.


Maybe your package met up with my TungSol 5998 and they ran off together?   That poor tube arrived and departed the same Chicago hub four times over a two week period and then vanished forever.  That was almost 2 years ago, although I still get an email from the Post Office every 6 months or so stating they are still looking for it.  LOL!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

I wonder if they had Dejoy look under the cushions of his couch?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Maybe your package met up with my TungSol 5998 and they ran off together?   That poor tube arrived and departed the same Chicago hub four times over a two week period and then vanished forever.  That was almost 2 years ago, although I still get an email from the Post Office every 6 months or so stating they are still looking for it.  LOL!!!


lm f a o .. oh wow... that thing is still floAting out there!?  I have a feeling one day.... your gonna have a box front of your door step.


----------



## sam6550a

JKDJedi said:


> lm f a o .. oh wow... that thing is still floAting out there!?  I have a feeling one day.... your gonna have a box front of your door step.


I just received 4 Foton 6SN7 [1958 & 1959 vintage] from Ukraina with no problems. They were mailed February 1 and received today.


----------



## JKDJedi

sam6550a said:


> I just received 4 Foton 6SN7 [1958 & 1959 vintage] from Ukraina with no problems. They were mailed February 1 and received today.


Sounds right.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I just received 4 Foton 6SN7 [1958 & 1959 vintage] from Ukraina with no problems. They were mailed February 1 and received today.


I am glad you got them, in my package are some Melz that are pretty rare along with power transformers lol. Now I can tell @bcowen I just do not have the parts when he asks me for a special amp in tiger maple with dove tail joints etc. lol.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am glad you got them, in my package are some Melz that are pretty rare along with power transformers lol. Now I can tell @bcowen I just do not have the parts when he asks me for a special amp in tiger maple with dove tail joints etc. lol.


If you are short one washer in your bill of materials, you are unable to complete a build.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> If you are short one washer in your bill of materials, you are unable to complete a build.


Perfect I can just hand Bill’s parts to Finnegan and never see half of them again.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Perfect I can just hand Bill’s parts to Finnegan and never see half of them again.😜


Or you could just hand them to me and you'd never see_ any_ of them again.  😉


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Or you could just hand them to me and you'd never see_ any_ of them again. 😉


We understand that you have a strange appetite-----.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> lm f a o .. oh wow... that thing is still floAting out there!?  I have a feeling one day.... your gonna have a box front of your door step.


Yup.  I got my money refunded a long time ago, so if it lands here at some point I'll have to tell the Post Office to come pick it up.  It'll be hilarious to see how many years that takes, and I'll most certainly have worn it out by then.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> We understand that you have a strange appetite-----.


My appetite is quite normal, it's the rest of me that's strange.  Weird, huh?  😝


----------



## bcowen

Today's roll.  The ST bottle Tung Sol 6J5's (thanks @therremans ) are a pretty big step up from the straight bottle versions.  The harmonic detail in the midrange is otherworldly.  The Melz is more extended up top and has more punch and dynamics in the upper bass, but the mids from these 6J5's is why we do tubes.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Today's roll.  The ST bottle Tung Sol 6J5's (thanks @therremans ) are a pretty big step up from the straight bottle versions.  The harmonic detail in the midrange is otherworldly.  The Melz is more extended up top and has more punch and dynamics in the upper bass, but the mids from these 6J5's is why we do tubes.



These Tung-Sol 6j5g are wonderful.

They also match very well with the Chatham 6as7g.

On Darkvoice it is very good.

I have yet to try them on Crack.

I could say the TS 6j5g is my second favorite along with Fivre 6c5g.

But my favorite valve of all is without a doubt the GEC l63 (Grey Coke Bottle).


----------



## therremans

I understand what a matched pair means.. but what is a “_*platinum matched*_” pair. It’s seems to be a very common term sellers use, there are pages of listings with that term.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 20, 2022)

Varies by seller, but a seller I've purchased from in the past states their 'Platinum Matched'  means 5% or less variance in measurement between the tubes where 'Matched' is between 5 and 10%.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I understand what a matched pair means.. but what is a “_*platinum matched*_” pair. It’s seems to be a very common term sellers use, there are pages of listings with that term.


I've heard the same thing as @Ripper2860 , but IMO it's nothing more than a sales gimmick.  Just like tacking on 'Bad Boy" this or that to every 6SN7 tube.  My favorite though is the seller that lists every tube as 'refurbished.'  To refurbish a tube you'd have to cut it open, replace the coating on the cathode, add some fresh getter material, pull a new vacuum, reseal it somehow, flash the new getter, and then test it.  Seems like a lot of work for $30 tubes, but what do I know.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 20, 2022)

+1 to sales gimmick.  Besides -- why would one need a 'matched pair' for a single driver and power tube amp like the DV336?  

(Maybe a single triode pair of tubes w/ adapter?  Even so, 10% variance should be fine with any amp -- especially one that has auto-bias worth its salt.)


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I understand what a matched pair means.. but what is a “_*platinum matched*_” pair. It’s seems to be a very common term sellers use, there are pages of listings with that term.



It aims to really make you feel better about giving them more (extra) money!  5% more accuracy, for an extra 10-15% more fee.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Ripper2860 said:


> 'Platinum Matched' means 5% or less variance in measurement between the tubes where 'Matched' is between 5 and 10%.


In my experience the matching process for anything mechanical (beyond tubes) is pretty simple: 

1. Test your entire sample and write down the values, weights, or relevant factors for matching. 
2. Sort them from high to low using the key factor. 
3. Create pairs by stepping down the list to thereby minimize differences along the way. Tubes sellers tend to charge the most of the highest scoring pairs, but other products just match on weight, length, size but have no specific price advantage. 

This process does indeed improve consistency where it matters. I doubt less than 10% differences could be reliably heard, as headphone drivers and volume pots also suffer from imbalances. And many of us have different hearing potentials for each ear.  It'd likely matter if tube, pot, and driver were all biased in one direction.


----------



## JKDJedi

I'm gonna be selling "_Refurbished Platinum Matched_" tubes in a minute...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna be selling "_Refurbished Platinum Matched_" tubes in a minute...


LOL!  Just be sure they are guaranteed's to's sound's excellent's in's our's gear's.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 20, 2022)

Don't forget to state that they test's strong but provide no measurements.😏


----------



## JKDJedi

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I've heard the same thing as @Ripper2860 , but IMO it's nothing more than a sales gimmick.  Just like tacking on 'Bad Boy" this or that to every 6SN7 tube.  My favorite though is the seller that lists every tube as 'refurbished.'  To refurbish a tube you'd have to cut it open, replace the coating on the cathode, add some fresh getter material, pull a new vacuum, reseal it somehow, flash the new getter, and then test it.  Seems like a lot of work for $30 tubes, but what do I know.


What is refurbished is the silkscreen…😏


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What is refurbished is the silkscreen…😏


LOL!  And almost sort of looks original kind of, a little.  An_ un_reasonable facsimile thereof, mostly.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> What is refurbished is the silkscreen…😏


What a great idea for a cottage industry.
Restomod tubes.


----------



## SHIMACM

Some valve bearings in Crack.


----------



## SHIMACM

One thing I've noticed when rolling tubes in Crack with Speedball is that it's much less sensitive to valve changes. Darkvoice is very sensitive to rolling.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Some valve bearings in Crack.


What are the input tubes in the top picture?  6C5's?  Look pretty cool!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> What are the input tubes in the top picture?  6C5's?  Look pretty cool!


Fivre 6C5


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Fivre 6C5


Ahhh.  So @SHIMACM which do you like better, the Fivres or the Tung Sols?


----------



## musicinmymind

SHIMACM said:


> One thing I've noticed when rolling tubes in Crack with Speedball is that it's much less sensitive to valve changes. Darkvoice is very sensitive to rolling.



Does that mean, Darkvoice is more accurate to tube SQ than Crack?


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Ahhh.  So @SHIMACM which do you like better, the Fivres or the Tung Sols?



Both are very good.

Depends on the power valve I'm pairing and the headphones as well.

The TS matches more power tubes than the Fivre.

When well matched, the Fivre has a little more bass weight and more natural vocals.

All this in Darkvoice is clear and with the hd650.


----------



## SHIMACM

musicinmymind said:


> Does that mean, Darkvoice is more accurate to tube SQ than Crack?



All the tube combinations I play on Crack sound good. Of course, I only have very good valves.

In Darkvoice, there are combinations, even between very good tubes, that sound pretty dull.

What do you mean by SQ?


----------



## g3n3r1c

SHIMACM said:


> All the tube combinations I play on Crack sound good.


The main changes I hear involve 12AU7 swaps and affect warmth versus brightness. My short plate tubes are reliably brighter than my long plate tubes. They all vary a little, and some have artifacts.

Regarding the DV, some of my tube combinations exaggerate the mids and/or sound highly metallic, but the Crack never shifts the timbre that much.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> All the tube combinations I play on Crack sound good. Of course, I only have very good valves.
> 
> In Darkvoice, there are combinations, even between very good tubes, that sound pretty dull.
> 
> What do you mean by SQ?


SQ = Sound Quality.


----------



## SHIMACM

g3n3r1c said:


> The main changes I hear involve 12AU7 swaps and affect warmth versus brightness. My short plate tubes are reliably brighter than my long plate tubes. They all vary a little, and some have artifacts.
> 
> Regarding the DV, some of my tube combinations exaggerate the mids and/or sound highly metallic, but the Crack never shifts the timbre that much.



Which headphones do you use?

Does your Crack have Speedball?


----------



## g3n3r1c

SHIMACM said:


> Which headphones do you use?


Senn HD 800 S, HD 600, HD 6XX, and Beyer DT 880 (600 Ohm)



SHIMACM said:


> Does your Crack have Speedball?


No. I have the Speedball kit in a box, but was happy with the standard build and did not feel the need to install it. If I want a technical amp I use a solid state amp.


----------



## SHIMACM

g3n3r1c said:


> Senn HD 800 S, HD 600, HD 6XX, and Beyer DT 880 (600 Ohm)
> 
> 
> No. I have the Speedball kit in a box, but was happy with the standard build and did not feel the need to install it. If I want a technical amp I use a solid state amp.



I found the Crack to be less sensitive to valve rolling with just the Speedball installed.

Good to know.

The HD800S do you think Crack can extract its full potential? I'm thinking of buying one to try out.

How would you compare the HD6XX to the HD800S on Crack?


----------



## g3n3r1c

SHIMACM said:


> The HD800S do you think Crack can extract its full potential?


To my ears the 800 S is mainly about stage, spacing, and nuance, not about punchy bass or dynamics. On SS amps it's more defined than on the Crack, but the Crack takes off the edges and adds atmosphere/harmonics. Full potential? That's not my approach to audio, as people's hearing adapts to whatever they have and they thereby often fail blind AB tests. I can say that the combo is atmospheric and pleasant to me, and makes the 800 S relatively easy going. I also boost the bass a little with a Loki, as both the 800 S and Crack lean bright.



SHIMACM said:


> compare the HD6XX to the HD800S on Crack?


The 800 S is on another technical level, per a vastly wider stage and more details everywhere than either the 600 or 6XX. The 800 S is a neutral-to-bright upgrade to the 600 rather than the warmer 6XX. 

I'm not a fan of the 6XX on most amps and almost sold mine, as I find the bass forced and vocals relatively shaky. HOWEVER, the Crack does something amazing to the 6XX and transforms it into a reverb king. Its tone corrects somewhat (reduced bass) too. I like it as a fun setup with many sources, but the reverb/harmonics becomes excessive with others. These days I'm mostly using the 800 S on tube amps and a Focal Clear on solid state.


----------



## therremans

Good find for me last night. Speaking of the HD6XX, they sound very nice with these. I preferred them with a Mullard or GEC 6080.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Good find for me last night. Speaking of the HD6XX, they sound very nice with these. I preferred them with a Mullard or GEC 6080.


Man, you got screwed on the shipping.  🤣

Seriously, pretty darn sweet deal.  Hope they test well when you get them.


----------



## SHIMACM

After I bought Crack, he turned my official amp to the HD6xx.

Darkvoice went to my workstation and shares space with Arcam rHead.

Today I decided to roll some valves and test Darkvoice with the AKG K7xx.

I'm impressed with the sound coming out of the K7XX.

I'm using a Sylvania 6080 GB and a Foton 52.

I found that Darkvoice didn't work very well with low impedance headphones, so I've barely used it with the K7XX.

But even though the K7XX has 62 Ohms it is sounding very good with Darkvoice, far surpassing Arcam.


----------



## therremans

Anybody need a GEC Foton? https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-Vintag...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## Galapac

therremans said:


> Anybody need a GEC Foton? https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-Vintag...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


Wow….just wow.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Wow….just wow.


Yeah, I love this part the most:





One of them has "Made in USA" silkscreened on it (maybe two, but the other one isn't clear). 3 have stickers stating "Made *FOR* GEC."  Worse, not a single one of them is even a '50's Russian tube...they are all 60's or later.  I'm assuming the very blurry photos were intentional.  What a friggin' scumbag.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I love this part the most:
> 
> 
> 
> One of them has "Made in USA" silkscreened on it (maybe two, but the other one isn't clear). 3 have stickers stating "Made *FOR* GEC."  Worse, not a single one of them is even a '50's Russian tube...they are all 60's or later.  I'm assuming the very blurry photos were intentional.  What a friggin' scumbag.


I dunno, maybe in this case GEC actually stands for Gulag Electric Company


----------



## therremans

I wrote the chap, he thanked me and seemed oblivious. But the info is right on the tubes. He couldn’t edit his auction but tried adding my question/response to his listing. He now thinks two are USA, one USSR and one genuine GEC. I don’t care but was just letting him know that he may upset a winning bidder.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I love this part the most:
> 
> 
> 
> One of them has "Made in USA" silkscreened on it (maybe two, but the other one isn't clear). 3 have stickers stating "Made *FOR* GEC."  Worse, not a single one of them is even a '50's Russian tube...they are all 60's or later.  I'm assuming the very blurry photos were intentional.  What a friggin' scumbag.



The stickers are like "enhancements".   Much like slapping a VTEC sticker on any Hyundai Sonata.   The sticker makes the car "faster".  A GEC sticker on any other tube adds warmth and awesomeness.


----------



## Galapac

When you do a search for other items he has for sale nothing comes up for me which is suspicious.
How can he have all these sales and positive feedback in a month without any items?


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> When you do a search for other items he has for sale nothing comes up for me which is suspicious.
> How can he have all these sales and positive feedback in a month without any items?



That's easy.  That Ebay link for see seller's other items is broken most of the time.    Do an advanced search and then search with items only by his user id as criteria...he's got 14 items currently.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nk...illbillvalves&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=60&_fosrp=1


----------



## DeweyCH

Ugh. I sold my DV to a fellow head-fier and FedEx destroyed it. I had them pack it and everything. Hopefully when it gets back to me I can fix it; the RCA jacks were crushed, which is easy enough, but I’m concerned about what other damage may have occurred.

I put a lot of work into that amp.


----------



## therremans

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh. I sold my DV to a fellow head-fier and FedEx destroyed it. I had them pack it and everything. Hopefully when it gets back to me I can fix it; the RCA jacks were crushed, which is easy enough, but I’m concerned about what other damage may have occurred.
> 
> I put a lot of work into that amp.


I’ve had FedEx poorly pack a computer monitor which resulted in damage. However, they refunded me in full and then some. Get the amps value back and shipping costs. I’m sure it can be fixed.


----------



## jonathan c

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh. I sold my DV to a fellow head-fier and FedEx destroyed it. I had them pack it and everything. Hopefully when it gets back to me I can fix it; the RCA jacks were crushed, which is easy enough, but I’m concerned about what other damage may have occurred.
> 
> I put a lot of work into that amp.


😢😡….


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> I’ve had FedEx poorly pack a computer monitor which resulted in damage. However, they refunded me in full and then some. Get the amps value back and shipping costs. I’m sure it can be fixed.


That’s what I’m going to do. I’m just annoyed because I wanted someone to enjoy it. They will eventually, and I’m sure the fixes won’t be too bad.


----------



## Slade01

DeweyCH said:


> Ugh. I sold my DV to a fellow head-fier and FedEx destroyed it. I had them pack it and everything. Hopefully when it gets back to me I can fix it; the RCA jacks were crushed, which is easy enough, but I’m concerned about what other damage may have occurred.
> 
> I put a lot of work into that amp.



Sorry to hear about FedEx.  Hopefully you can recoup the value and refix the amp.   I've used UPS to have them pack things for me in the past...including my DV to a head-fier, and they packed it really well.  Went coast to coast without incident.


----------



## ChrisPDX

JKDJedi said:


> Got my 2nd pair of Baldwin tubes and same exact thing, one tests just ok and the other low with a failed grid ... I quit. On the brighter side of things.. Ebay has a new and quick returns policy, Free shipping included.
> 
> Edit: L M F A O.. the vendor gave me a refund with a message.. KEEP THEM!


Wonder what your impressions have been of the Baldwin tubes ?  I just got a very well-testing pair, thinking they might be great for output buffer.


----------



## Slade01

ChrisPDX said:


> Wonder what your impressions have been of the Baldwin tubes ?  I just got a very well-testing pair, thinking they might be great for output buffer.



I will chime in here while we wait to see if our buddy @JKDJedi remembers these tubes from way back when.   Baldwin tubes are typically Rebranded Sylvania tubes, and as such retain their typical house sound.   Oh wait, I also commented on these as well back then also.  Lol.  But they were solid bargains for sure, and were pretty good on the DV.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-327#post-16010822


----------



## therremans

Very noticeable signal difference, I installed both at once but I’d assume I’m hearing the biggest difference from the cable. It’s brighter and more analytical, however I’m going to let the cable and fuse burn in for awhile. Oh, also DEAD silent even with my volume knob at 100%. Before I’d hear a slight hum at full gain, but I’d never go that far anyway. I wasn’t sure which way to install the fuse even though it has an arrow. I will flip it and see if I can hear any differences (probably won’t).


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Very noticeable signal difference, I installed both at once but I’d assume I’m hearing the biggest difference from the cable. It’s brighter and more analytical, however I’m going to let the cable and fuse burn in for awhile. Oh, also DEAD silent even with my volume knob at 100%. Before I’d hear a slight hum at full gain, but I’d never go that far anyway. I wasn’t sure which way to install the fuse even though it has an arrow. I will flip it and see if I can hear any differences (probably won’t).


Nice!  What interconnects are those?  Look to be very nicely made.


----------



## therremans (Mar 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Nice!  What interconnects are those?  Look to be very nicely made.


WBT-0144, they lock (which is cool) and seem nicely built. I haven’t torn one apart though. They say made in Germany.. but they seem very popular in China. 

Cable is 16 strands of 8awg silver plated OCC, I wanted to see if I could hear a difference between copper and silver. That’s a definite yes. I have to say, I’m a fan of the braid, it’s flexible and offers full interference/noise cancelation.

The old pair has KLE interconnects with Neotech heavily insulated wire, which is close to solid metal as far as stiffness and rigidity.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> WBT-0144, they lock (which is cool) and seem nicely built. I haven’t torn one apart though. They say made in Germany.. but they seem very popular in China.
> 
> Cable is 16 strands of 8awg silver plated OCC, I wanted to see if I could hear a difference between copper and silver. That’s a definite yes. I have to say, I’m a fan of the braid, it’s flexible and offers full interference/noise cancelation.
> 
> The old pair has KLE interconnects with Neotech heavily insulated wire, which is close to solid metal as far as stiffness and rigidity.


Nice!  

I have a couple different WBT labeled RCA's that were definitely made in China.  Nothing wrong with them, and in fact they are pretty nicely put together for the money, they're just not real WBT's or they would have likely cost 10x as much.  And with the silver, you will very likely hear changes (for the better) as they get some break-in. At least that's my experience with silver (and silver plated) wires.  Copper too really, just that it's more pronounced with silver.


----------



## Slade01 (Mar 4, 2022)

therremans said:


> Cable is 16 strands of 8awg silver plated OCC, I wanted to see if I could hear a difference between copper and silver. That’s a definite yes. I have to say, I’m a fan of the braid, it’s flexible and offers full interference/noise cancelation.



So with your initial impression, does it feed into the idea of silver (even silver plated) being more brighter/or more detailed vs copper (meatier tone/increasing punch in bass areas)?

Edit: _*Nevermind...I saw with your fuse post that its brighter with both the cables and the fuse install -- thanks!*_


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Nice!
> 
> I have a couple different WBT labeled RCA's that were definitely made in China.  Nothing wrong with them, and in fact they are pretty nicely put together for the money, they're just not real WBT's or they would have likely cost 10x as much.  And with the silver, you will very likely hear changes (for the better) as they get some break-in. At least that's my experience with silver (and silver plated) wires.  Copper too really, just that it's more pronounced with silver.


You mind if I send you the cable to burn in? If you like it, I can send you to the place where I got it. Does direction matter when burning in? I will label which side can be from source for you.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> You mind if I send you the cable to burn in? If you like it, I can send you to the place where I got it. Does direction matter when burning in? I will label which side can be from source for you.


Sure thing.  Recommend 3 days for interconnects, especially with the amount of dielectric in the braid on those.  Direction really _shouldn't _matter when it comes to the cooking/burn-in process, although I've never tried a 'reverse cook' to find out.  Just the same, there's no harm in being consistent so I always plug them into the Cooker in the same direction they'll be used in the component.


----------



## Slade01 (Mar 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Direction really _shouldn't _matter when it comes to the cooking/burn-in process, although I've never tried a 'reverse cook' to find out.  Just the same, there's no harm in being consistent so I always plug them into the Cooker in the same direction they'll be used in the component.



Weren't u just saying yesterday in another thread that reversing the polarity of the magnetic electro something something direction with alter the quantum state that could destroy the entire universe?





Oh wait - maybe that was fuse testing only?  Lol  My bad.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Weren't u just saying yesterday in another thread that reversing the polarity of the magnetic electro something something direction with alter the quantum state that could destroy the entire universe?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait - maybe that was fuse testing only?  Lol  My bad.


ROFL!!  IIRC, I said the entire *known* universe.  People in the know would argue there's a lot we don't know about yet.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> So with your initial impression, does it feed into the idea of silver (even silver plated) being more brighter/or more detailed vs copper (meatier tone/increasing punch in bass areas)?
> 
> Edit: _*Nevermind...I saw with your fuse post that its brighter with both the cables and the fuse install -- thanks!*_


Yes, I’ll let you know how the fuse compares. I haven’t taken it out yet. I already had a hifi fuse, just lower grade. I’m most likely hearing the cable differences. Next week when I have more time, I will swap cables and fuses and get a feel for what’s going on. I’ll get back with you on that. Also let me know if you want a link for those cables or fuse.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> Weren't u just saying yesterday in another thread that reversing the polarity of the magnetic electro something something direction with alter the quantum state that could destroy the entire universe?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait - maybe that was fuse testing only?  Lol  My bad.


Yes, quantum leap nano fuse required.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes, quantum leap nano fuse required.


Isn't that Captain Archer on the left?


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yes, I’ll let you know how the fuse compares. I haven’t taken it out yet. I already had a hifi fuse, just lower grade. I’m most likely hearing the cable differences. Next week when I have more time, I will swap cables and fuses and get a feel for what’s going on. I’ll get back with you on that. Also let me know if you want a link for those cables or fuse.


Thanks!  Yes - if you can share the link for the cables, would be great.   I'm also looking at trying out different interconnects.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Isn't that Captain Archer on the left?


Only if you reverse the quantum directional flow.  Lol.


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> Yes, quantum leap nano fuse required.


Thanks for pulling me back to middle school. That episode where Sam jumped into a kid with Downs was... a thing.


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen 
You've done time in the 7N7 brigades, your thoughts?
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds...-matched-pair-with-sockets-to-6sn7-nos.21450/


----------



## bcowen (Mar 5, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> You've done time in the 7N7 brigades, your thoughts?
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds...-matched-pair-with-sockets-to-6sn7-nos.21450/


Those are short bottles. Nice sounding tubes (I have several) but not as good as the tall bottle Frankies IMO.  A pair of adapters are ~$35 including shipping, and Frankies can still be found in the $25 - $30 range, so the most I'd pay for those and the adapters IF they were actually Frankies would be around $90. For lesser tubes?  Not.  Just my opinion obviously, but I think that asking price is at least 2X reasonable.

Edit:  the tubes he is linking in the Ebay auction are not even remotely the same as the ones he's selling.  I'm going to hope he just doesn't know any better. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284585731785?hash=item4242a1a6c9:g:vHIAAOSwQrJbUX-q
(I think these are made by Deyan)

Same tubes as he's selling:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133410996605?hash=item1f0fea417d:g:UmwAAOSwjepevbfv


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Those are short bottles. Nice sounding tubes (I have several) but not as good as the tall bottle Frankies IMO.  A pair of adapters are ~$35 including shipping, and Frankies can still be found in the $25 - $30 range, so the most I'd pay for those and the adapters IF they were actually Frankies would be around $90. For lesser tubes?  Not.  Just my opinion obviously, but I think that asking price is at least 2X reasonable.
> 
> Edit:  the tubes he is linking in the Ebay auction are not even remotely the same as the ones he's selling.  I'm going to hope he just doesn't know any better.
> 
> ...


From the little bit of knowledge I've accumulated they seemed overpriced to me. Just looking for a second opinion - not thinking of buying, just curious. Going by your link they're not quite as rare as the seller claims either.

Didn't know Deyan had an eBay store. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> From the little bit of knowledge I've accumulated they seemed overpriced to me. Just looking for a second opinion - not thinking of buying, just curious. Going by your link they're not quite as rare as the seller claims either.
> 
> Didn't know Deyan had an eBay store. Thanks for pointing that out.


Yeah, the short bottles with the getter flash covering 1/2 - 2/3rds the inside of the bottle are not rare at all.  Very nice tubes, and probably my 2nd favorite 7N7, just not worth premium prices in today's market. 

Here's some RCA branded ones.  Sylvania and National Union were the only two manufacturers of 7N7's, so even if you see one with a GE label there's no need to run. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255194854336?hash=item3b6acc73c0:g:Yt8AAOSwWsxhdfJn

Also, can't guarantee that Ebay store is Deyan.  Just that the adapters look identical to the ones I bought from him directly (including the label type and font), and they're coming from Bulgaria which is where he is.  Kind of assumed, but it's not a too big a stretch.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I will chime in here while we wait to see if our buddy @JKDJedi remembers these tubes from way back when.   Baldwin tubes are typically Rebranded Sylvania tubes, and as such retain their typical house sound.   Oh wait, I also commented on these as well back then also.  Lol.  But they were solid bargains for sure, and were pretty good on the DV.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-327#post-16010822


My copies are a little noisy, (price was too good for some reason I guess) and they do have an extended soundstage above the average tube from memory, might just have to roll this right now.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Very noticeable signal difference, I installed both at once but I’d assume I’m hearing the biggest difference from the cable. It’s brighter and more analytical, however I’m going to let the cable and fuse burn in for awhile. Oh, also DEAD silent even with my volume knob at 100%. Before I’d hear a slight hum at full gain, but I’d never go that far anyway. I wasn’t sure which way to install the fuse even though it has an arrow. I will flip it and see if I can hear any differences (probably won’t).


I wont those cables..please share the link to those..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I wont those cables..please share the link to those..


What, you need @therremans address?  Oh, wait...you meant you want some _like_ them. My bust. 🤣🤣🤣

Good to see you man.  Where ya' been?


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 6, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> From the little bit of knowledge I've accumulated they seemed overpriced to me. Just looking for a second opinion - not thinking of buying, just curious. Going by your link they're not quite as rare as the seller claims either.
> 
> Didn't know Deyan had an eBay store. Thanks for pointing that out.


The adapter is solid, you can run a tank over them easy and they'd still be good.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> What, you need @therremans address?  Oh, wait...you meant you want some _like_ them. My bust. 🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Good to see you man.  Where ya' been?


Coffee and tube rolling in da mornings.. on a Sunday afternoon? ;D


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.moon-audio.com/wbt-next...1FhzpSgId39nrYtgW0UkeCLrQy2GawhxoCO7oQAvD_BwE

Oh hell no...


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> I wont those cables..please share the link to those..


This is the one I purchased:
.75m length $26.31 + free shipping
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mL0VYCc


----------



## Galapac

JKDJedi said:


> Coffee and tube rolling in da mornings.. on a Sunday afternoon? ;D


The WBT is just the connector and many cable companies use them in making inter-connects.
One source here:

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...-0144-cu-rac-connector?variant=20444078178358


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.moon-audio.com/wbt-next...1FhzpSgId39nrYtgW0UkeCLrQy2GawhxoCO7oQAvD_BwE
> 
> Oh hell no...


Yeah, well Moon Audio overcharges for everything.  Genuine WBT's are expensive, just not *that* expensive.  

More better:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/181789509986?hash=item2a537fc962:g:BPcAAOSwImRaWNiM

Just have to be careful about the Chinese counterfeits that are pretty prolific these days:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3128963939...2BGyHxB4tY1QnZyR|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBMooXQiuxf


----------



## musicinmymind

therremans said:


> This is the one I purchased:
> .75m length $26.31 + free shipping
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mL0VYCc



Which power cord are you using, with Darkvoice I found power cord does not make much difference. Did compare few furutech one, found not much difference from stock cable.

My darkvoice is also stock, with no mods, with only preamp wires are cut off. Maybe this is reason power cord does not make any difference


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> The adapter is solid, you can run a tank over them easy and they'd still be good.


Totally. I have one of Deyan's 6922/7n7 adapters. Some quality work


----------



## therremans

musicinmymind said:


> Which power cord are you using, with Darkvoice I found power cord does not make much difference. Did compare few furutech one, found not much difference from stock cable.
> 
> My darkvoice is also stock, with no mods, with only preamp wires are cut off. Maybe this is reason power cord does not make any difference


chi-fi
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mO1Fqqs


----------



## jonathan c

musicinmymind said:


> Which power cord are you using, with Darkvoice I found power cord does not make much difference. Did compare few furutech one, found not much difference from stock cable.
> 
> My darkvoice is also stock, with no mods, with only preamp wires are cut off. Maybe this is reason power cord does not make any difference


…no power cord, no hum…🤔


----------



## g3n3r1c

musicinmymind said:


> with Darkvoice I found power cord does not make much difference


Unless you have a power generator, regenerator, or conditioner, the power cord is merely the last 1 to 2 meters of cable coming all the way from the generating station to your neighborhood, into your house, and through your walls. Don't expect much difference because it can't do much.



jonathan c said:


> no power cord, no hum…🤔


Alcohol and electricity:  The cause of and solution to all life's problems.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/125939-to-alcohol-the-cause-of-and-solution-to-all-of


----------



## therremans (Mar 6, 2022)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chatham-Ja...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Fair price. No test results though. I’m willing to test it for whoever buys it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brimar-For...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
Definitely not a Fivre.. looks like an RCA to me.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brimar-For...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
> Definitely not a Fivre.. looks like an RCA to me.



Good eye.   The "Foreign" Stamp already screams that it is a 'Murica! kind of tube.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Good eye.   The "Foreign" Stamp already screams that it is a 'Murica! kind of tube.


Just arrived from Peru.  Tests above NOS.  Only a 5% variance in the triodes, which is more uncommon with 6AS7's than common IME.  There's a little discoloration in the getter flash up top so it's not brand new, but appears to have very little use. No, I haven't listened to it yet.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Just arrived from Peru.  Tests above NOS.  Only a 5% variance in the triodes, which is more uncommon with 6AS7's than common IME.  There's a little discoloration in the getter flash up top so it's not brand new, but appears to have very little use. No, I haven't listened to it yet.


Nice score Bill. I think I have seen others from this seller from Peru but was wary because his prices were "reasonable" if it was the same seller. Let me know how it works out.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Nice score Bill. I think I have seen others from this seller from Peru but was wary because his prices were "reasonable" if it was the same seller. Let me know how it works out.


Yeah, it was a little risky.  Got it for a good price, but not a bargain by any means.  He shipped it promptly and packed it very nicely. Took just under 4 weeks to get here, but that's probably not bad at all these days and I've never had anything shipped from Peru before that I can remember.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Just arrived from Peru.  Tests above NOS.  Only a 5% variance in the triodes, which is more uncommon with 6AS7's than common IME.  There's a little discoloration in the getter flash up top so it's not brand new, but appears to have very little use. No, I haven't listened to it yet.


I was watching that one, so you’re the guy who bought it. What do these sound like, how does it compare to a Chatham?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I was watching that one, so you’re the guy who bought it. *What do these sound like, how does it compare to a Chatham?*


I've never heard one before.  Film at eleven.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Just arrived from Peru.  Tests above NOS.  Only a 5% variance in the triodes, which is more uncommon with 6AS7's than common IME.  There's a little discoloration in the getter flash up top so it's not brand new, but appears to have very little use. No, I haven't listened to it yet.


They made tubes in Peru? Did it come with a free sample of Peruvian Marching Powder? I have so many questions…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> They made tubes in Peru? Did it come with a free sample of Peruvian Marching Powder? I have so many questions…


I guess so.  But Peru is in America.  So it's South America, but there's nothing to be gained by nitpicking.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, it was a little risky.  Got it for a good price, but not a bargain by any means.  He shipped it promptly and packed it very nicely. Took just under 4 weeks to get here, but that's probably not bad at all these days and I've never had anything shipped from Peru before that I can remember.


That is a fast llama…😂


----------



## Isaacc7

I have dug up a handful of French SFR 6080h tubes in my collection. Does anyone have any experience with them?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> They made tubes in Peru? Did it come with a free sample of Peruvian Marching Powder? I have so many questions…


All I know is that Chinese ones came with steamed rice residues 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> I have dug up a handful of French SFR 6080h tubes in my collection. Does anyone have any experience with them?


I've never heard one of those, and have actually never even seen one until now.  Have you given them a listen?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Isaacc7 said:


> I have dug up a handful of French SFR 6080h tubes in my collection. Does anyone have any experience with them?


Not with those but tried the French manufactured Thomson 6080WA which does not stand out


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What, you need @therremans address?  Oh, wait...you meant you want some _like_ them. My bust. 🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Good to see you man.  Where ya' been?


I am in the process of getting @therremans address so I can send a loaner Incubus amp to him. As Bill knows, I will also be doing a blind test on some $200 fuses compared to standard fuses on March 19th, I will send results upon request when PM'd within a few days of the tests. Four people involved, four Incubus amps, Melz 1578's and Tung Sol 5998's. 

In other news tubes are nearly impossible to buy from Russia right now but I did get some Melz just before all hell broke loose. They may be my last such purchase for a long time, Ebay has disclaimers about the ability to get products to you.


----------



## therremans

I do love my Melz, it just had to break in! The 5998 and it is a great combination. I’m glad I’ll be able to use them in the Incubus when it arrives.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> I do love my Melz, it just had to break in! The 5998 and it is a great combination. I’m glad I’ll be able to use them in the Incubus when it arrives.


See this is easy lol, I had to send headphones to one person, another only had low impedance cans, those who have DV's are more used to the tubes and proper headphones.

I believe I included a couple Melz with the loaner.


----------



## therremans

If a directional fuse is installed backwards, will it blow?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> If a directional fuse is installed backwards, will it blow?


LOL!  Short answer is yes.  And then you have to get a new one. 50/50 chance you'll get it in right initially and not have to get _another_ new one.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2022)

I flipped the $25 fuse and it blew. Ugh. I was lucky the first time. I didn’t know.. I also don’t remember which way it was in so now there’s a chance the new one will blow. Maybe I never get a directional fuse again.

I went back to my old fuse now. I can confirm that the brightness I was hearing in my signal was not from the silver plated copper RCAs but the fuse. I prefer the fuse that blew for some music, brighter and clearer but prefer this cheaper one when you don’t want that effect. New one made jazz sound like crap in my HD6XX and Ken Rad 6C5s. So hmm. What to do now.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I flipped the $25 fuse and it blew. Ugh. I was lucky the first time. I didn’t know.. I also don’t remember which way it was in so now there’s a chance the new one would blow. Maybe I never get a directional fuse again.
> 
> I went back to my old fuse now. I can confirm that the brightness I was hearing in my signal was not from the silver player RCAs but the fuse. I prefer the fuse that blew for some music, brighter and clearer but prefer this cheaper one when you don’t want that effect. New one made jazz sound like crap in my HD6XX and Ken Rad 6C5s. So hmm. What to do now.


Didn't you get a warranty with it?  I mean it's obviously defective...now.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2022)

I’m not afraid to admit my failures. I had read about flipping fuses to see if there is a sound difference. So I assumed incorrectly here. A $25 mistake is frustrating but I’ll get over it with some drinks and buying a replacement. But I’m not so sold on these fuses. I felt it imparted too much of an effect or change in my amps sound.. Maybe I should stick with ceramic fuses or just try a different one.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 8, 2022)

therremans said:


> I’m not afraid to admit my failures. I had read about flipping fuses to see if there is a sound difference. So I assumed incorrectly here. A $25 mistake is frustrating but I’ll get over it with some drinks and buying a replacement. But I’m not so sold on these fuses. I felt it imparted too much of an effect or change in my amps sound.. Maybe I should stick with ceramic fuses or just try a different one.


I was just kidding about the directionality thing.  There's no way a fuse should only work in one direction but blow in the other.  What rating did you get?

On the ceramic fuses, I've tried a couple of the inexpensive Buss and Littelfuse versions and did not care for them at all.  Added a glare and harshness that was pretty obvious (to me).  If fuses don't make a difference, these sure did.    Have not tried any of the boutique ceramic versions though.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am in the process of getting @therremans address so I can send a loaner Incubus amp to him. As Bill knows, I will also be doing a blind test on some $200 fuses compared to standard fuses on March 19th, I will send results upon request when PM'd within a few days of the tests. Four people involved, four Incubus amps, Melz 1578's and Tung Sol 5998's.
> 
> In other news tubes are nearly impossible to buy from Russia right now but I did get some Melz just before all hell broke loose. They may be my last such purchase for a long time, Ebay has disclaimers about the ability to get products to you.


I purchased 4 1958- 1959 Fotons from a gentleman in Ukraine which he shipped on 2 February, and I received on 18 February. I sent him a PM after the invasion started, and he was staying safe. He lives in Donetsk Region 84313.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I purchased 4 1958- 1959 Fotons from a gentleman in Ukraine which he shipped on 2 February, and I received on 18 February. I sent him a PM after the invasion started, and he was staying safe. He lives in Donetsk Region 84313.


Good to hear he is safe.  Thanks for the update!


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I was just kidding about the directionality thing.  There's no way a fuse should only work in one direction but blow in the other.  What rating did you get?


Oh really? So the fuse should never blow in either direction? Well maybe I will get a refund then.The fuse was 1.6A 250V.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> In other news tubes are nearly impossible to buy from Russia right now but I did get some Melz just before all hell broke loose. They may be my last such purchase for a long time, Ebay has disclaimers about the ability to get products to you.





sam6550a said:


> I purchased 4 1958- 1959 Fotons from a gentleman in Ukraine which he shipped on 2 February, and I received on 18 February. I sent him a PM after the invasion started, and he was staying safe. He lives in Donetsk Region 84313.





bcowen said:


> Good to hear he is safe.  Thanks for the update!


I received this eBay message from a Ukraine eBay seller:

"Hi!
Thanks for your support. So far everything is fine with us. Here is a show today in our city, you can watch if you are interested ) https://t.me/Novoeizdanie/6911
It was an explosion of a missed rocket
But it's not as bad as it might seem"

Video text translated:
"Kramatorsk, powerful outbreak❗️
UPD: It is reported that the air defense system worked , the missile was shot down: the glass in the school, kindergarten and residential buildings was shattered by the blast wave."

His message was sent to me on March 5th...and their sites are still online today:
https://t.me/s/Novoeizdanie https://novoeizdanie.com/


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Oh really? So the fuse should never blow in either direction? Well maybe I will get a refund then.The fuse was 1.6A 250V.


Correct.  If orienting a fuse a certain way was required, there would be a lot of blown fuses when people put them in "backwards."  Is it a fast blow or slow blow?

But here's what's interesting.  My DV has "1 amp fuse" silkscreened on the chassis.  Yet what was sent in it was a 3 amp fuse.  So was the 3 amp fuse installed at the factory by mistake, or did something change in the circuit requiring a higher amperage fuse and they didn't change the lettering on the chassis?  Darned if I know. 

@Paladin79 if you still have the DV that you love so much , is there a way for you to measure the current draw on it and see what fuse *should* be in there?  1 amp seems pretty low, but that's just an uneducated opinion.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 8, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Correct.  If orienting a fuse a certain way was required, there would be a lot of blown fuses when people put them in "backwards."  Is it a fast blow or slow blow?
> 
> But here's what's interesting.  My DV has "1 amp fuse" silkscreened on the chassis.  Yet what was sent in it was a 3 amp fuse.  So was the 3 amp fuse installed at the factory by mistake, or did something change in the circuit requiring a higher amperage fuse and they didn't change the lettering on the chassis?  Darned if I know.
> 
> @Paladin79 if you still have the DV that you love so much , is there a way for you to measure the current draw on it and see what fuse *should* be in there?  1 amp seems pretty low, but that's just an uneducated opinion.


Of course there is a way for me to measure the current draw once I locate the DV. Finnegan and I will search for it tomorrow.😜

Oh and I will see what original fuse it has.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Correct.  If orienting a fuse a certain way was required, there would be a lot of blown fuses when people put them in "backwards."  Is it a fast blow or slow blow?
> 
> But here's what's interesting.  My DV has "1 amp fuse" silkscreened on the chassis.  Yet what was sent in it was a 3 amp fuse.  So was the 3 amp fuse installed at the factory by mistake, or did something change in the circuit requiring a higher amperage fuse and they didn't change the lettering on the chassis?  Darned if I know.
> 
> @Paladin79 if you still have the DV that you love so much , is there a way for you to measure the current draw on it and see what fuse *should* be in there?  1 amp seems pretty low, but that's just an uneducated opinion.


Yes same with mine. I remember it not matching to what it stated. However, my chi-fi 1A replacement does work fine still.

Would this Kill a watt reading be accurate in regards to fuse requirement?


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Oh really? So the fuse should never blow in either direction? Well maybe I will get a refund then.The fuse was 1.6A 250V.


Unless a fuse is underrated for its application or accidentally damaged, there are reasons for it to have blown.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes same with mine. I remember it not matching to what it stated. However, my chi-fi 1A replacement does work fine still.
> 
> Would this Kill o watt reading be accurate in regards to fuse requirement?


While not being as accurate as a good piece of test equipment, it should be reasonably accurate.  Keep an eye on it when first powering up the amp as the current draw will be higher until the caps charge and the filaments in the tubes get to operating temp.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Yes same with mine. I remember it not matching to what it stated. However, my chi-fi 1A replacement does work fine still.
> 
> Would this Kill a watt reading be accurate in regards to fuse requirement?


It measures current, let a DV cool off then monitor the reading as you turn the amp on.


----------



## therremans

Amp is in a cold state.. although I haven’t discharged the caps. It does spike to around 1.5A, I’m surprised my 1A fuse hasn’t blown over the past year and a half.

A 3A fuse does seem more appropriate for the DV.

Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jdSsHCCVOINeytgjTLuaQUDJnf9vVZwB/view?usp=drivesdk


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Amp is in a cold state.. although I haven’t discharged the caps. It does spike to around 1.5A, I’m surprised my 1A fuse hasn’t blown over the past year and a half.
> 
> A 3A fuse does seem more appropriate for the DV.
> 
> Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jdSsHCCVOINeytgjTLuaQUDJnf9vVZwB/view?usp=drivesdk


Is the 1A fuse a fast blow or slow blow?  Should have an 'F' by the amperage rating for a fast blow, or a 'T' for slow blow, assuming it has standard nomenclature.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Is the 1A fuse a fast blow or slow blow?  Should have an 'F' by the amperage rating for a fast blow, or a 'T' for slow blow, assuming it has standard nomenclature.


T, slow. So is the new 1.6A that blew.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> T, slow. So is the new 1.6A that blew.


That explains why the 1A has worked, as the time lag allows the (momentary) higher inrush current to pass.  Since that fuse still works, it would indicate there's nothing wrong with the amp resulting in excessive current draw.  With the 1.6A also being a slow blow, there's no reason it should have blown other than being defective.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2022)

bcowen said:


> That explains why the 1A has worked, as the time lag allows the (momentary) higher inrush current to pass.  Since that fuse still works, it would indicate there's nothing wrong with the amp resulting in excessive current draw.  With the 1.6A also being a slow blow, there's no reason it should have blown other than being defective.


My guess is that it is defective as it’s a slow blow and still went. It worked for my first listen, the amp may have been warm or I just got lucky. I don’t remember when I installed it or how many times I turned the amp on after that initial listen, 1-3?.


----------



## therremans (Mar 8, 2022)

………


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> ………


LOL!!  This is precious:





I hate having non-integrated fuses personally.  I think this is a textbook example of a seller grasping at straws.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 8, 2022)

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  This is precious:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate having non-integrated fuses personally.  I think this is a textbook example of a seller grasping at straws.


….the seller is obviously _con-fused….🤣🤣🤣_


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> ………


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Unless a fuse is underrated for its application or accidentally damaged, there are reasons for it to have blown.


Exactly, if rated right then it blew to protect another component. Better check and never go above the recommended rating.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It measures current, let a DV cool off then monitor the reading as you turn the amp on.


And better to have the DV as stand alone without any pre-amp or headphone connection when you do so to prevent any damage caused by a spike.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  This is precious:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate having non-integrated fuses personally.  I think this is a textbook example of a seller grasping at straws.


Fuse apartheid? Isn't that a violation of international laws?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Fuse apartheid? Isn't that a violation of international laws?


If not, it sure should be.     And we should probably also examine the method people are using. Unbeknownst to me there is apparently more than one method for using a fuse....I always though you just put them in the fuseholder and called it a day.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If not, it sure should be.     And we should probably also examine the method people are using. Unbeknownst to me there is apparently more than one method for using a fuse....I always though you just put them in the fuseholder and called it a day.


…monday, fuseday, wednesday…🤪


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I always though you just put them in the fuseholder and called it a day…


…the penalty for being the fuse, the proud…


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Fuse apartheid? Isn't that a violation of international laws?


Would you pair the slow blow & fast blow fuses?…What if a _trans_fusion is involved? 🤔🤔🤔


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> *Would you pair the slow blow & fast blow* fuses?…What if a _trans_fusion is involved? 🤔🤔🤔


That'd be the lamest buddy movie ever…🤢


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 9, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> That'd be the lamest buddy movie ever…🤢


…the audience would blow before the fuses go…🤮


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …monday, fuseday, wednesday…🤪



A fuesday may prevent reaching a FRIday 🔥🔥 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> A fuesday may prevent reaching a FRIday 🔥🔥 🤣🤣


ROFL!!  Good one!


----------



## bcowen

The seller just relisted these Frankies.  At that price it's hard to understand why they weren't initially snatched up almost instantly. But in case anyone missed it, now's your chance.  🤣🤣🤣


----------



## therremans (Mar 10, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The seller just relisted these Frankies.  At that price it's hard to understand why they weren't initially snatched up almost instantly. But in case anyone missed it, now's your chance.  🤣🤣🤣


Not to mention the glass isn’t “smoked”. Such delusion. Wonder what did it.. also, an important tube collector, huh? I guess that justifies the price, as this anonymous important person owned the tubes.



I only like _bulbs_ with a high level of security. You never know! Helps me sleep at night.

If you browse their listings, it’s a bunch of acquired crap. Probably from estate sales. Their prices are about 3-5x.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Not to mention the glass isn’t “smoked”. Such delusion. Wonder what did it.. also, an important tube collector, huh? I guess that justifies the price, as this anonymous important person owned the tubes.
> 
> I only like _bulbs_ with a high level of security. You never know! Helps me sleep at night.
> 
> If you browse their listings, it’s a bunch of acquired crap. Probably from estate sales. Their prices are about 3-5x.


LOL!  I, for one, would _never_ buy tubes from _un_important people regardless of how overpriced they were.   

They had a pair of Western Electric 422A's (rectifiers) listed at $3000.  I put it on my watch list. Have no need or use for them, but as that was at least 3X the going market price I wanted to see what they went for. An hour after I "watched' them I got an offer from the seller at $1600.  Seems they are listing at sky high prices just to see if anyone bites, and if not they come down pretty substantially.  If someone wanted those Frankies I'd shoot an offer of $50 (a fair current market price) and see what happens.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


>


•  must be from Thomas Jefferson’s personal collection;
•  internally what?;
•  no difference between a bulb and a tube? must all be pre-GEs;
•  ‘huntandpeck’ mode:  hunt for prey, peck their wallets.
•    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


OK then, $55?  🤣


----------



## therremans (Mar 12, 2022)

Still working out a refund for that fuse.. I’ve read that fuses do have to burn in and will mellow out.. I’ll try another and report back in time. @Slade01


----------



## therremans

Hello. I received a full refund on that fuse, 😅. Can someone please pull the fuse out of their dv and let me know type and rating it is? Should be a 3A 250V, fast or slow blow?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Hello. I received a full refund on that fuse, 😅. Can someone please pull the fuse out of their dv and let me know type and rating it is? Should be a 3A 250V, fast or slow blow?


Mine is a 3A 250v fast blow.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mine is a 3A 250v fast blow.


Is the DV itself a fast blow? 🤔🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Is the DV itself a fast blow? 🤔🤣


For sure it's a good burner 😆😆


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Still working out a refund for that fuse.. I’ve read that fuses do have to burn in and will mellow out.. I’ll try another and report back in time. @Slade01


Thanks -- you already got me buying cables.  What's next.  Quantum Nuclear Fuses?   Lol.   For real though - I do read that ceramic fuses allegedly make for better/cleaner SQ.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Thanks -- you already got me buying cables.  What's next.  Quantum Nuclear Fuses?   Lol.   For real though - I do read that ceramic fuses allegedly make for better/cleaner SQ.


Glad that you asked! Your system will _*not *_be complete without these in silver ($2500 USD _each_)…😳🤣…


----------



## therremans (Mar 14, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Glad that you asked! Your system will _*not *_be complete without these in silver ($2500 USD _each_)…😳🤣…


wow, where is the platinum option?

I think the goal is to bypass metals all together and use string theory to send the signal via the quantum dimension and avoid all these inferior earth metals.


----------



## therremans

https://www.partsconnexion.com/hifi-tuning-supreme-fuses.html @Slade01


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> https://www.partsconnexion.com/hifi-tuning-supreme-fuses.html @Slade01


HiFi-Tuning are great fuses…I use them.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Glad that you asked! Your system will _*not *_be complete without these in silver ($2500 USD _each_)…😳🤣…


You conveniently(?) forgot to mention that the silver fuse does very little by itself. You need the Black/Red receptacle to go with it for full effect.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You conveniently(?) forgot to mention that the silver fuse does very little by itself. You need the Black/Red receptacle to go with it for full effect.


$15 for the ‘Receptacle’, $3085 for being ‘Ultra’…🥲…I 🙏 that shipping is free…


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You conveniently(?) forgot to mention that the silver fuse does very little by itself. You need the Black/Red receptacle to go with it for full effect.



You guys are killing me.   I've never seen an ugly power outlet with some marker tattoos at the bottom (you know to make the electricity go faster).   Next thing you will tell me is that these are connected by 100 core x 100 threads platinum plated vibranium cybex power cables.

If you'll excuse me, gotta concentrate on tube hoarding now that russia has killed current production tube market.  @bcowen your genius of amassing the entire foton collection is paying off in bangybang dividends now!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> You guys are killing me.   I've never seen an ugly power outlet with some marker tattoos at the bottom (you know to make the electricity go faster).   Next thing you will tell me is that these are connected by 100 core x 100 threads platinum plated vibranium cybex power cables.
> 
> If you'll excuse me, gotta concentrate on tube hoarding now that russia has killed current production tube market.  @bcowen your genius of amassing the entire foton collection is paying off in bangybang dividends now!


LOL!  Give it a few more weeks, and BangyBang will start listing relabeled Chinese tubes as Fotons.


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Glad that you asked! Your system will _*not *_be complete without these in silver ($2500 USD _each_)…😳🤣…


No thanks....I'm going to skip this ride/rabbit hole.


----------



## Galapac

Slade01 said:


> If you'll excuse me, gotta concentrate on tube hoarding now that russia has killed current production tube market.  @bcowen your genius of amassing the entire foton collection is paying off in bangybang dividends now!


 I thought we were doing that all along...no?


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> No thanks....I'm going to skip this ride/rabbit hole.


Oh, fine.  Just go spend your money on something stupid like tubes or something.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Give it a few more weeks, and BangyBang will start listing relabeled Chinese tubes as Fotons.


The rice next to the filaments will be the giveaway…🤔


----------



## therremans

Galapac said:


> No thanks....I'm going to skip this ride/rabbit hole.





bcowen said:


> Oh, fine.  Just go spend your money on something stupid like tubes or something.


What if right after @Galapac typed that..
*camera pans over*


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> What if right after @Galapac typed that..
> *camera pans over*


Those cable elevators aren't made out of maple.  Fail.   🤣🤣


----------



## DeweyCH

therremans said:


> What if right after @Galapac typed that..
> *camera pans over*


"Wait, vacuum tubes? Here I've been spending all my money on monorail tubes to put the cables through!"


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> What if right after @Galapac typed that..
> *camera pans over*


I didn’t know that Lionel made cables…🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> I didn’t know that Lionel made cables…🤷🏻‍♂️



or this....


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I didn’t know that Lionel made cables…🤷🏻‍♂️


Of course they did.  And even a railcar to transport them.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Of course they did.  And even a railcar to transport them.


And here is the rail car to address ECG / GE tube conveyance by rail…😲:


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> What if right after @Galapac typed that..
> *camera pans over*


I totally just flashed back to my pre-Mr. days, playing with slotcars


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And here is the rail car to address ECG / GE tube conveyance by rail…😲:


Or this....


----------



## HTSkywalker

With this parade going around, I better dust off my Matchbox cars collection🤣😃😃


----------



## jpearson

*Collective Wisdom Required Please!! *

I'm about to dive into the DV 336SE world and been trying to get up-to-speed with tube-rolling options after *a lot* of wasted money the other year tube rolling a Valhalla 2, which was just the wrong amp from the get-go! 

*The main thing I'm after is a relaxed listen - reigning in the Sennheiser HD-series upper-mids in particular (not so bothered about soundstage/resolution). *I'm really sensitive to this region and lower treble. (If I get a thicker sound generally/more low end that would be a nice bonus!) Based on these requirements, I had been thinking I'd get the Mullard 6080 and the Ken Rad Dark Glass according to their relative merits... However, more reading of these discussions suggests to me that getting good synergy between the power and drive tubes is as important as selecting tubes based on their individual qualities!? 

Does anyone here feel there's a better power tube pairing for the Ken Rad VT-231 dark glass than the Mullard 6080? RCA? Tung Sol? Thanks folks!


----------



## Slade01

jpearson said:


> *Collective Wisdom Required Please!! *
> 
> I'm about to dive into the DV 336SE world and been trying to get up-to-speed with tube-rolling options after *a lot* of wasted money the other year tube rolling a Valhalla 2, which was just the wrong amp from the get-go!
> 
> ...



Another suggestion for a bass leaning power tube is the GE 5998A.  I'm not sure about its synergy with the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 if its too much together or not, though.

the Tung-Sol 6080/Ken Rad VT-231 is a nice pairing though in my opinion. 

Also, I'll throw this out there - for the driver tube, and with an adapter, I would for fun give the 6F8G variant a try for full bodied/holographic sound with rolled off highs in the right amount for smooth listening.


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> *Collective Wisdom Required Please!! *
> 
> I'm about to dive into the DV 336SE world and been trying to get up-to-speed with tube-rolling options after *a lot* of wasted money the other year tube rolling a Valhalla 2, which was just the wrong amp from the get-go!
> 
> ...


I don’t think you’ll be happy with the Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass, it’s likely not going to have the mids you’re after. Now this really opens up many cans to different things but.. what particular genre(s) are you after with this setup? I’ll recommend some combinations for you.


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-T...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Sylvania “tall boy” 6J5GTs huh? 😂


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-T...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> Sylvania “tall boy” 6J5GTs huh? 😂


If you make up a name for them, you can sell them for more.    

I'm still cracking up at the black glass KenRad named by the seller as the "Black Beauty," thereby making it far more valuable than those cheap crap non-Black Beauty versions.

And now we even have Bad Boys that KenRad made:


----------



## jonathan c

Just wait until we start seeing Philips ECG E88CC _slechte jongens…😜😳🤣…_


----------



## Galapac

For all of the newer members who have never seen the definition of Bad Boy...
This is what I could find that designates "Bad Boy" but again, this was made up by someone who was genius who had more than his/her share of Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes:

1) 3 hole black T plates
2) Bottom getter flashing 1/3 way up the tube
3) Shinny silver top and bottom rectangular mica. The top mica has three small triangular edges bent down on each side.
4) Copper grid posts
5) Date code of 2xx(or possibly 1xx or 3xx) were 1, 2 or 3 represent 1951, 1952 or 1953 and xx represents the week.
6) Full black bottom base with Sylvania or JAN-CHS-6SN7GT in green letters

Something like this: Bay Boy, Bad Boy, What cha gonna do?

Are they any better than say other 6SN7 variations? I'm not one to say as I like many different versions of the 6SN7 in different amps under different genres, heck that's half the fun! 
Are they worth the premium? I would say no unless you can find a good deal.

Happy hunting and accept no substitutes!


----------



## Galapac

I just found the *TRUE *source of the "Bay Boy" moniker himself...Robert Hutton.

Here is a blog post where he brags about it...
_"crap, I just about created the legendary Sylvania 6SN7GT 'Bad Boys' when I connected onto them with Neville in Australia. Can't be anywhere near those legends, right?"_

Robert Hutton

I don't know the guy but his blog post speaks volumes about his personality.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I just found the *TRUE *source of the "Bay Boy" moniker himself...Robert Hutton.
> 
> Here is a blog post where he brags about it...
> _"crap, I just about created the legendary Sylvania 6SN7GT 'Bad Boys' when I connected onto them with Neville in Australia. Can't be anywhere near those legends, right?"_
> ...


The guy does seem to be rather enamored with himself.  One set of ears listening to tubes in 2 (OMG! TWO!) amplifiers? And he's a "true" expert?  Wow.  I hope someone can give me directions to his altar so I can run and kneel in front of it. 

Seriously though, thanks for posting this and the description of the Bad Boy.  To my ears the Bad Boys are nice sounding tubes, but I'm no expert.   They are not holy grails, and not worth huge prices.  A good $50 tube IMO so long as it's NIB and (accurately) tests at NOS or better GM levels.  I'd rather pay quite a bit more for a '50's Melz 1578.  And depending on the amp and music menu for the day, I might even prefer a sub-$20 1950's Foton.  Just my opinion, which like the expert above is heavily biased by my own personal preferences and components.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The guy does seem to be rather enamored with himself.  One set of ears listening to tubes in 2 (OMG! TWO!) amplifiers? And he's a "true" expert?  Wow.  I hope someone can give me directions to his altar so I can run and kneel in front of it.
> 
> Seriously though, thanks for posting this and the description of the Bad Boy.  To my ears the Bad Boys are nice sounding tubes, but I'm no expert.   They are not holy grails, and not worth huge prices.  A good $50 tube IMO so long as it's NIB and (accurately) tests at NOS or better GM levels.  I'd rather pay quite a bit more for a '50's Melz 1578.  And depending on the amp and music menu for the day, I might even prefer a sub-$20 1950's Foton.  Just my opinion, which like the expert above is heavily biased by my own personal preferences and components.


…the only bad boy is Marilyn Manson 🤪…


----------



## g3n3r1c

Galapac said:


> Are they any better than say other 6SN7 variations? I'm not one to say as I like many different versions of the 6SN7 in different amps under different genres, heck that's half the fun!
> Are they worth the premium? I would say no unless you can find a good deal.
> 
> Happy hunting and accept no substitutes!


I have a "true Bad Boy" from a reputable vendor...it's okay but not to my taste. I'd not buy another Bad Boy as my other Sylvania tubes share some of its characteristics. 

In my notes I rated the Bad Boy 3/5 on the Lyr 3 for being thick, dynamically flat, gauzy, bloomy, mid focused, and weak on staging. It hums in the Darkvoice so I haven't listened long -- I don't want to waste tube hours trying to eliminate hum.


----------



## jonathan c

g3n3r1c said:


> I have a "true Bad Boy" from a reputable vendor...it's okay but not to my taste. I'd not buy another Bad Boy as my other Sylvania tubes share some of its characteristics.
> 
> In my notes I rated the Bad Boy 3/5 on the Lyr 3 for being thick, dynamically flat, gauzy, bloomy, mid focused, and weak on staging. It hums in the Darkvoice so I haven't listened long -- I don't want to waste tube hours trying to eliminate hum.


…good decision…it would never learn the lyrics…🤣🤪


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> I don’t think you’ll be happy with the Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass, it’s likely not going to have the mids you’re after. Now this really opens up many cans to different things but.. what particular genre(s) are you after with this setup? I’ll recommend some combinations for you.


Thanks for the steer. Genres are diverse but alternative rock, folk and hip hop predominantly. I just don't want the shoutiness in the mids I perceived with the upper mids in the Valhalla - but I do like an intimate sound (hence HD series), don't like the vocals to feel recessed.


----------



## therremans (Mar 17, 2022)

jpearson said:


> Thanks for the steer. Genres are diverse but alternative rock, folk and hip hop predominantly. I just don't want the shoutiness in the mids I perceived with the upper mids in the Valhalla - but I do like an intimate sound (hence HD series), don't like the vocals to feel recessed.


Okay with that info..

Output/power tubes, try to find a 5998 in America for a decent price (it’ll take time). It will add some nice energy/quickness to all driver tubes you pair with it. Another option is a GEC 6080, here’s a reputable UK seller (I’d get that over a Mullard). Chatham 6AS7G is a solid third choice.

Driver tubes, this is more difficult. I’ll avoid the rare or expensive options. I am tying to keep in mind what I prefer with my HD6XX but I mainly use those for jazz and that kind of thing since I purchased my Beyer’s.. This is where you’ll start collecting, as some tubes (add adapters) work better with certain genres. I’m going to miss many as there are just too many to list..

RCA 6SN7GTB - (see photo below) mid 50s, short bottle, side getter, copper support rods, offset plates. very nice forward vocals. Will do folk and rock nicely for you. Can do hip-hop ok, won’t have the impact or presence as the Sylvania 6J5GTs below. It lacks some low end and detail. This is a bargain tube that will walk all over most new stock tubes. Mine is labeled “Dumont” I paid about $5 for it.

RCA VT-231 - (6sn7) - an okay entry level choice, will lack some treble and clarity but it’s smooth and has a strong mid-range. Can be dependent on the output tube though. Vocals are also not it’s strong point so I hesitated in mentioning it. Don’t pay more than $40.

Foton (6sn7) 1950s only with ribbed gray plates - Soviet tubes that can be a great bargain. Will be harder to acquire with the war. I purchased mine from Ukraine. Dynamic sound for the cost. Less midrange and more treble and vocal clarity for rock but will be quite dependent with the output tube.

Sylvania 6J5GTs (gray plates only!) you’ll need 2x with an adapter - that signature “house” sound, mid dominant, vocals are nice and a step above the RCA above, not super detailed but just enjoyable, works with electronic and hip hop well. Can usually be found for $10 a tube!

Ken-Rad VT-65 (6c5 metal cans) - my go to for jazz. Less moving than the Sylvania above with hip hop. Less treble, vocals are forward but instruments have a spacious sound, even on HD6XX which don’t have much of a soundstage. These truly have a unique vintage sound to them. It’s a bit strange and hard to explain. Also can be found for less than $10 a tube.

7N7 tall bottle with oval micas only (more rare) - chrome dome down to half of tube, you’ll need an adapter.

Tung Sol VT-94A (6j5g) - more rare

English tubes.. much more $$$ but try a Brimar 6SN7GT (lovely mids) and a Fivre 6SN7GT. Then pretty much any genuine English 6J5Gs/L63. Mullard, GEC, etc.

That’s just a few options.


----------



## jpearson (Mar 18, 2022)

therremans said:


> Okay with that info..
> 
> Output/power tubes, try to find a 5998 in America for a decent price (it’ll take time). It will add some nice energy/quickness to all driver tubes you pair with it. Another option is a GEC 6080, here’s a reputable UK seller (I’d get that over a Mullard). Chatham 6AS7G is a solid third choice.
> 
> ...


@therremans this is really helpful, thank you so much! I'm actually based in the UK, so UK sellers are much more preferable for me.

Can I ask check why you prefer the GEC over the Mullard? Thanks again!


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> @therremans this is really helpful, thank you so much! I'm actually based in the UK, so UK sellers are much more preferable for me.
> 
> Can I ask check why you prefer the GEC over the Mullard? Thanks again!


The seller I linked also has/had nos mullards, i bought mine from him. The GEC has a slightly fuller sound with more low end but both are solid choices.. very good at detail retrieval and soundstage/separation.


----------



## therremans (Mar 18, 2022)

jpearson said:


> @therremans this is really helpful, thank you so much! I'm actually based in the UK, so UK sellers are much more preferable for me.


That’s great. Try to get some English L63/6J5G tubes. GEC, Osram, Marconi, etc. They sound amazing and you can usually get them in small unorganized used but tested unmatched pairs or groups from English sellers. You can make a pair and sell the rest if needed. I usually pass on these bargain used tubes due to shipping costs.. also be wary of any tubes labeled “Made for X” or “imported” and the price is too good to be true, they are likely Soviet or USA made tubes.

Adapter: https://a.aliexpress.com/_mK5mgRm
If you’re handy even a little bit, you can make your own adapter that’s hand wired (ask for the wiring schematic here) but the Chinese ones will work just fine..

I have a NOS pair of GEC gray glass L63 on the way that I’m really curious to finally hear. I’d avoid the straight bottle GEC L63.

I also recommend the Brimar 6SN7GT. I like the mid range and unique sound it has but not everyone likes it.

A little tip is to try to purchase tubes in multiples. Keep the best example for yourself and sell the rest. Sometimes you end up getting that tube you kept for next to nothing.


----------



## bcowen

jpearson said:


> @therremans this is really helpful, thank you so much! *I'm actually based in the UK, so UK sellers are much more preferable for me.*
> 
> Can I ask check why you prefer the GEC over the Mullard? Thanks again!


You have two good vendors there that normally** have a decent selection of European tubes:  Langrex and Billington Exports. 

** things aren't exactly normal right now, and I haven't looked at their sites recently to see if they are experiencing major disruptions.


----------



## therremans (Mar 18, 2022)

_*Tung-Sol 5998 (1957 vs 1966/67)*_

There are subtle differences to the construction and materials but most notably the 1966/67 version has an upper and bottom getter flashing whereas the 50s version has just the upper. Mica on the 50s version is more opaque and aged looking, along with the finish on the domino plates. Thankfully the tube tests at 15,000/15,000 (8,000) on my 800A. It seems very high but I won’t complain, it may be unused. It also sounds like a great 5998 so far, (maybe even better?) Not bad for $50!

Notice the fault? The new arrival has a getter that came unsoldered over the years. This doesn’t impact performance at all but care needs to be taken that the loose getter remains at the bottom glass envelope before powering on.


----------



## Mr Trev

You guys still doing that fuse thing? Check this bad boy out…


His vid on the mercury arc rectifier is pretty cool too. Can't wait to see Paladin add one to his Incubus


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> You guys still doing that fuse thing? Check this bad boy out…
> 
> 
> His vid on the mercury arc rectifier is pretty cool too. Can't wait to see Paladin add one to his Incubus



Or bcowen to add one to his Sidecubus…😂


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You guys still doing that fuse thing? Check this bad boy out…
> 
> 
> His vid on the mercury arc rectifier is pretty cool too. Can't wait to see Paladin add one to his Incubus



Love it!  I don't think @therremans had to go to quite as much work to blow his though.    

Some of that guy's videos are hilarious, like the 3300 1/3 RPM record player:


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> English tubes.. much more $$$ but try a Brimar 6SN7GT (lovely mids) and a Fivre 6SN7GT. Then pretty much any genuine English 6J5Gs/L63. Mullard, GEC, etc.


On the subject of Brimar tubes. What is considered a good Brimar? There are tons of versions out there. B getter, D getter, foil getter, grey plate, black plate & the super expensive black beauty


----------



## therremans

Deceneu808 said:


> On the subject of Brimar tubes. What is considered a good Brimar? There are tons of versions out there. B getter, D getter, foil getter, grey plate, black plate & the super expensive black beauty


Good question. I would like to listen to them all. I have only owned the gray plate version.


----------



## therremans

https://guitar.com/news/industry-ne...rand-western-electric-branching-guitar-tubes/


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://guitar.com/news/industry-ne...rand-western-electric-branching-guitar-tubes/


They also have a survey asking what type of tubes people want.  They didn't have selection boxes for 421A or 6SN7, so I just wrote them in the text box.

https://www.westernelectric.com/expand


----------



## DTgill

See what the mail lady just dropped off... I'll have to have a listen after work.


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> See what the mail lady just dropped off... I'll have to have a listen after work.


Sweet!  Is this your first graphite plate?  If so, just be aware that it needs a good 20 minutes of warm-up to show its stuff.


----------



## DTgill

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Is this your first graphite plate?  If so, just be aware that it needs a good 20 minutes of warm-up to show its stuff.


Yes, sir it is. I saw your post 11,151 you were showing, "Real Tung Sol on the left, and the "not exactly" on the right."

And decided to see if I could find one, I think I paid $42 plus shipping. Hope I didn't pay too much... 

It sounds very good.


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> Yes, sir it is. I saw your post 11,151 you were showing, "Real Tung Sol on the left, and the "not exactly" on the right."
> 
> And decided to see if I could find one, I think I paid $42 plus shipping. Hope I didn't pay too much...
> 
> It sounds very good.


$42 is a great price for a graphite plate!  They are usually going for at least twice that these days. I love the sound of mine once fully warmed up, but being patient for 20 minutes is difficult at times.


----------



## DTgill

Plugged in the tube, turned on my DV and went back to work, came home 2 hours later and sat down for a listen.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Is this your first graphite plate?  If so, just be aware that it needs a good 20 minutes of warm-up to show its stuff.


Not graphite plate version to my eyes. Lighting angle makes it harder to see but the mica reveals it.


----------



## DTgill

therremans said:


> Not graphite plate version to my eyes. Lighting angle makes it harder to see but the mica reveals it.


Is that bad or doesn't matter, or did I get homered?


----------



## therremans

DTgill said:


> Is that bad or doesn't matter, or did I get homered?


Doesn’t matter, they are just different tubes. That 6080 design is a great tube and you paid a fair price.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Not graphite plate version to my eyes. Lighting angle makes it harder to see but the mica reveals it.


You're right.  I didn't enlarge the picture initially...just looked like graphite in the smaller photo. But easily seen once enlarged.  Good eye.


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> Is that bad or doesn't matter, or did I get homered?


No, no homering.  You didn't get a bargain price, but you got a reasonable one.  And you got the good steel plate version with the spring mica supports and the silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.  Really nice sounding tube to my ears, and on the plus side it doesn't need 20 minutes of warm-up.


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> That’s great. Try to get some English L63/6J5G tubes. GEC, Osram, Marconi, etc. They sound amazing and you can usually get them in small unorganized used but tested unmatched pairs or groups from English sellers. You can make a pair and sell the rest if needed. I usually pass on these bargain used tubes due to shipping costs.. also be wary of any tubes labeled “Made for X” or “imported” and the price is too good to be true, they are likely Soviet or USA made tubes.
> 
> Adapter: https://a.aliexpress.com/_mK5mgRm
> If you’re handy even a little bit, you can make your own adapter that’s hand wired (ask for the wiring schematic here) but the Chinese ones will work just fine..
> ...


Thanks again @therremans. Apologies again for my ignorance, but I take it all these English L63 you refer to need to be installed as a pair with the adapter??

Is there a particular advantage sound-wise with a pair of L63 vs. the individual driver tubes you suggested above?

I notice you list the RCA VT-231 that a lot of people seem to reference as an OK entry level choice, but not great on vocals. What do you feel it lacks where vocals are concerned? Also, how does it compare to the Ken-Rad VT-231 in your experience - the clear glass and/or dark glass versions? 

I like the descriptors you reference with the RCA VT-231, e.g. smoothness and lacking treble... Just to reiterate, the key thing for me is that I want to try and get a tube combo that *DOES* roll off the treble and can tame vocal harshness in the upper-mids, *especially the sibilance region. *You also mentioned energy and quickness that the American power tube could add. Similarly in comparison with the Mullard you note the GEC has good detail retrieval/separation and staging - I'm much less interested in detail retrieval, speed, dynamic range or increased soundstage, and much more interested in the amp rolling off some of the energy and attack coming out of the source material - I guess I'm after the sort of harmonic distortion tubes can add that can smooth out the harsh edges of a bad recording... If the Mullard is better on this metric, then I'd take it over the GEC. I would ideally like a softness in the upper-mid transients that can compensate for cans that are more forward in this area like the Sennheiser HD series. Hope that makes sense! Obviously this is all a very subjective game, so just want to be clear on (what I think!) I'm after

Re Sylvania 6J5GTs - is it the same adapter as for the L63s, or different?

Cheers!


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> Apologies again for my ignorance, but I take it all these English L63 you refer to need to be installed as a pair with the adapter??


Hi. yes, pair. The L63/6J5/G/GT are 1/2 of a 6SN7. Other similar tubes that can use the same adapter are 6C5/G/GT. Also 6P5, but I’d skip them for the Darkvoice.

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0241.htm


jpearson said:


> Is there a particular advantage sound-wise with a pair of L63 vs. the individual driver tubes you suggested above?


They typically *sound better at a lower cost. You can hand select and better match the two individual triodes versus a dual triode tube which will age anyway it wants to. If one triode goes out, you can replace that one triode/tube with another.

*there are still dual triode tubes that have a unique and desired sound or that the single triode variation is not considered equal but a separate kind of sound. For example 2x RCA 6J5 does not equal the sound of a RCA VT-231. So because of this, one is not necessarily better.


jpearson said:


> I notice you list the RCA VT-231 that a lot of people seem to reference as an OK entry level choice, but not great on vocals. What do you feel it lacks where vocals are concerned? Also, how does it compare to the Ken-Rad VT-231 in your experience - the clear glass and/or dark glass versions?


RCA VT-231 lacks some clarity, definition, and the vocals just don’t have that depth. Some tubes make vocals sound quite flat or thin and others more lifelike, rich or lack of a better term.. 3D. This tube does have solid mid-range, drums should sound nice and round without being too bright.

Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass is mostly a V-shape tube in my experience. It excels at low end and has a sparkle to the top end. This is why it’s loved, depending on the system. I have never heard the clear glass personally.


jpearson said:


> I would ideally like a softness in the upper-mid transients that can compensate for cans that are more forward in this area like the Sennheiser HD series.


I think either are a good choice but they do separation and detail very well, I just think I prefer the GEC because it sounds a little thicker.


send me some track names of like the low quality stuff you want to sound less exposed, or vocal tracks and I’ll demo them with my drivers such as Ken Rad VT-231, RCA, some 6J5s, etc… with some power tubes you’re thinking about and let you know what I think. I do own the HD6XX(HD650) so I can get an accurate picture of what you want. Keep in mind my amp has been modded but the core circuit is mostly the same.


jpearson said:


> Re Sylvania 6J5GTs - is it the same adapter as for the L63s, or different?


Yes, same adapter can be used.


----------



## therremans




----------



## therremans (Mar 28, 2022)

@jpearson there are other notable power tubes to look out for. They will be costly and more rare. Many regard the GEC 6AS7G to be (one of) the best. I’ve never heard one myself..





_*GEC 6AS7G*_




_*Bendix JAN-CEA-6080WB*_

_*Western Electric 421A*_


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


>


Please tell me that "↑" symbol means something other than "this end up"


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Damnit!  Show off.  I'm not jealous or anything.  Nope.  Not a bit.  Mostly. 

How do they sound?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Please tell me that "↑" symbol means something other than "this end up"


Actually, that *is* what it stands for.  Those tubes were only supposed to be sold in the Texas market.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Damnit!  Show off.  I'm not jealous or anything.  Nope.  Not a bit.  Mostly.
> 
> How do they sound?


Ha, don’t want to be a show off, just a happy tube hoarder. They sound great so far, a lovely warm sound and low end to these.. + that old English mid sound. 

They also have a detailed high end. So far I prefer them with the GEC 6080 over the 5998. I haven’t compared but from memory, I prefer these over the Mullard 6J5G. Mullard might be more detailed and wide (from memory) But these definitely groove with their sound, it’s thick but pleasant, one of those tubes where I forget to change the track. Pretty unique for sure and I understand why people love them. All genres I’ve played sound nice.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> Ha, don’t want to be a show off, just a happy tube hoarder. They sound great so far, a lovely warm sound and low end to these.. + that old English mid sound.
> 
> They also have a detailed high end. So far I prefer them with the GEC 6080 over the 5998. I haven’t compared but from memory, I prefer these over the Mullard 6J5G. Mullard might be more detailed and wide (from memory) But these definitely groove with their sound, it’s thick but pleasant, one of those tubes where I forget to change the track. Pretty unique for sure and I understand why people love them. All genres I’ve played sound nice.


So indulge my lack of tube knowledge…
What are they (besides the obvious 6j5) and why is there Silly Putty attaching the glass to the base?


----------



## Slade01 (Mar 29, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> So indulge my lack of tube knowledge…
> What are they (besides the obvious 6j5) and why is there Silly Putty attaching the glass to the base?



I can chime in on this.   I asked about this too (about the silly putty looking ring), first time i saw it.  It's mainly used as support for the tube (reduce vibration in military applications and/or assist in securing the glass tube to the base again, as a reinforcement for rugged use).  It's usually rubber or plastic sleeve I believe.

Response on the 6J5 Thread:  Post 1132

And what are they - 6J5 MOV tubes made in the Hammersmith Plant (marked by the "Z") and used for British Military application (Air Ministry as denoted by the 10E/ Prefix.)


----------



## SHIMACM

In fact these GECs are tubes for simply getting lost in the music.


----------



## Slade01

@therremans BTW Thank you for making me spend more money on things I probably do not need.  LOL.  I took a liking to those RCA silver plated cables you got.  I also got a semi-matching "audiophile" power cord to go with it.  The cord is pretty substantial.  If nothing else, they look really nice.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @therremans BTW Thank you for making me spend more money on things I probably do not need.  LOL.  I took a liking to those RCA silver plated cables you got.  I also got a semi-matching "audiophile" power cord to go with it.  The cord is pretty substantial.  If nothing else, they look really nice.


No problem 😂. They look great.


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


>


Impressions ??


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Ha, don’t want to be a show off, just a happy tube hoarder. They sound great so far, a lovely warm sound and low end to these.. + that old English mid sound.
> 
> They also have a detailed high end. So far I prefer them with the GEC 6080 over the 5998. I haven’t compared but from memory, I prefer these over the Mullard 6J5G. Mullard might be more detailed and wide (from memory) But these definitely groove with their sound, it’s thick but pleasant, one of those tubes where I forget to change the track. Pretty unique for sure and I understand why people love them. All genres I’ve played sound nice.


Make sure not to turn the amp sideways or upside down 😨


----------



## jpearson (Mar 30, 2022)

therremans said:


> @jpearson there are other notable power tubes to look out for. They will be costly and more rare. Many regard the GEC 6AS7G to be (one of) the best. I’ve never heard one myself..


@therremans the issue I'm having with most of the _driver _tubes in your list is most don't seem readily available and it looks like the prices for those that are in the specified editions have skyrocketed since your purchases...

I can find one pair of Sylvania 6J5GT (which sound great in your description) but they're "black plates", which I'm assuming are a no-go...? And $72! - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185255080220?hash=item2b2210311c:g:YhIAAOSwWKVh4D3r

RCA 6SN7GTB - only one I can find for cheap is different spec - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384689337512

The only tube I can find that seems relatively available and to spec in your list is the 6SN7GT RCA (grey glass), but ones that test well seem to be going for around $85! - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175116038875?hash=item28c5bab2db:g:M10AAOSwFfph5oyR There's ones that test less well for cheaper, e.g. - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175177203193. Is that good enough?  (Looks like I'm really going to struggle to get one at $40....)

I'm happy enough to shell out for the GEC 6080 as a power tube, but the driver tubes are seeming like a minefield... Matched pairs of English L63 seem to suffer from the same price/availability issues...

I guess this is the way of tubes in the world these days...(!?) Or do I just have to wait for bargains?

You said there are too many viable options to list them all. Can you think of any you haven't mentioned (with the sort of characteristics I'm after) that might be more available?


----------



## jpearson

jpearson said:


> @therremans Matched pairs of English L63 seem to suffer from the same price/availability issues...


These are the cheapest pair of British L63 I've come across, at $160 - https://mullard.org/products/copy-of-l63-osram-matched-pair-large-blue-decal-2


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> Good question. I would like to listen to them all. I have only owned the gray plate version.


Is this the one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224885672675?hash=item345c3b0ae3:g:CA8AAOSweXRh9rPr

You mentioned good mids - how are the bass, vocals, treble? (Pairing would be with the GEC 6080 you recommended if you're up for some testing )


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> I can find one pair of Sylvania 6J5GT (which sound great in your description) but they're "black plates", which I'm assuming are a no-go...? And $72! -


I didn’t like the black plates in my amp. The Sylvania gray plates will also be sold under other names. So try searching for just 6J5GT, etc.



jpearson said:


> RCA 6SN7GTB - only one I can find for cheap is different spec - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384689337512


Totally different tube and worth about $5. Probably sounds quite bad.



jpearson said:


> The only tube I can find that seems relatively available and to spec in your list is the 6SN7GT RCA (grey glass), but ones that test well seem to be going for around $85! -


Yeah people seem to want $80 for the RCA VT-231. It’s not worth it to me.



jpearson said:


> I guess this is the way of tubes in the world these days...(!?) Or do I just have to wait for bargains?


Yep, wait for bargains on eBay. That’s how it goes..
There’s no real shortcuts, I browse eBay continuously to score deals on my saved searches and my fiancé hates it. Just keep looking and waiting.



jpearson said:


> You said there are too many viable options to list them all. Can you think of any you haven't mentioned (with the sort of characteristics I'm after) that might be more available?


Not off the top of my head, I mean there’s so many options but you really just need to use some and figure out what you like and want. Only so much research can go into play when you have the combination of the tubes, amp and phones. I listed quite a few cheaper options.



jpearson said:


> These are the cheapest pair of British L63 I've come across, at $160 - https://mullard.org/products/copy-of-l63-osram-matched-pair-large-blue-decal-2


That’s pretty normal but lower testing valves can be found. I just watched this one end today for 47 pounds - link


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> Is this the one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224885672675?hash=item345c3b0ae3:g:CA8AAOSweXRh9rPr
> 
> You mentioned good mids - how are the bass, vocals, treble? (Pairing would be with the GEC 6080 you recommended if you're up for some testing )


That price is a bit rich for those test results, imo. I’ll check it out this evening. Yes, I own just one the gray plates version. But I did score these Brimar 6J5Gs today for a bargain price and they are black plates. Link


----------



## therremans

@jpearson

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2032589987...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I purchased a set of these from this seller. They arrived NIB and tested above bogey levels. Pair with a Mullard or GEC 6080 for a warmer sound. Works well with the HD6XX. Especially good with jazz. Vocals are definitely not going to be sibilant for you. (I gave my thoughts on these in this thread if you search back.)

That’s a recommendation.

Still seek out the Sylvania 6J5GT and RCA VT-94s. Sylvania/Phillips/Zenith 6J5G is a different sound than those but that’s another that you may enjoy. It’s an airy spacious sound. But I wouldn’t pay too much for these. (They will go for more than the previous tubes I just mentioned)


----------



## therremans (Mar 30, 2022)

GEC 6080 / Brimar 6SN7GT (gray)




@jpearson Yeah like I said, this combination would work for you. It’s laid back for sure. Vocals are not sibilant. High notes are never harsh. Very little attack here. Brimar will have a more high freq details than the Ken-Rad 6C5s. However they’re both up your alley. For the money, I’d still go with those Ken-Rads to start. They’re pretty great. You’ll eventually pickup a Brimar 6SN7 or 6J5Gs to try out.

Low end is definitely tame. If you want a nice low end that has some bass slam to it, I’d recommend different headphones.

I can tell you what you don’t want, and that’s a Foton 😂. It’s all about the attack and high end bite.


----------



## DTgill

Decided to try this combo out, sounds very nice...

RCA-6AS7G and PSVANE 6SN7-SE


----------



## Slade01

I found something that will go well with your tube collections @therremans @bcowen 

https://tmraudio.com/accessories/miscellaneous/roller-hero-tubility-belt/


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I found something that will go well with your tube collections @therremans @bcowen
> 
> https://tmraudio.com/accessories/miscellaneous/roller-hero-tubility-belt/


LOL!  It should have a big buckle in front with "Nerd" silkscreened on it.  Or maybe "Idiot" for spending $799 on $15 worth of elastic bands and velcro.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> I found something that will go well with your tube collections @therremans @bcowen
> 
> https://tmraudio.com/accessories/miscellaneous/roller-hero-tubility-belt/





bcowen said:


> LOL!  It should have a big buckle in front with "Nerd" silkscreened on it.  Or maybe "Idiot" for spending $799 on $15 worth of elastic bands and velcro.


😂 April fools?
I hope I qualify for the 6 month 0% financing.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> 😂 April fools?
> I hope I qualify for the 6 month 0% financing.


For you at $799, the 0 month, 6% financing !


----------



## jonathan c

“Trade Up”?…is there a version just for KT88?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> For you at $799, the 0 month, 6% financing !


With that financing offer, I almost jumped on it.  But then....no free shipping?  I'm out.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I found something that will go well with your tube collections @therremans @bcowen
> 
> https://tmraudio.com/accessories/miscellaneous/roller-hero-tubility-belt/


Brought to you by BeltyBelt…


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> With that financing offer, I almost jumped on it.  But then....no free shipping?  I'm out.


Yeah I agree. No free shipping is always a deal breaker.   

I'll leave one more out there if you guys haven't seen this.  It's a fascinating watch.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Yeah I agree. No free shipping is always a deal breaker.
> 
> I'll leave one more out there if you guys haven't seen this.  It's a fascinating watch.



I think that those are best driven by a h/p/a with Hello Kitty-88 tubes…🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I think that those are best driven by a h/p/a with Hello Kitty-88 tubes…🤣


ROFL!  May be a good application for GE's.  Probably wouldn't be able to hear them suck.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  May be a good application for GE's.  Probably wouldn't be able to hear them suck.


The GEs will make your ears yell ‘Me! Ow!’…🤣


----------



## Mr Trev (Apr 1, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> I found something that will go well with your tube collections @therremans @bcowen
> 
> https://tmraudio.com/accessories/miscellaneous/roller-hero-tubility-belt/


Actually, that's an early prototype of Dr. Ho's Triple Action Back Belt

As far as April Fools jokes… I doubt anybody could top this magnificent person: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestin...e_1974_april_fools_hoax_when_a_man_started_a/
uncensored link - hopefully: https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/mhhm7m/the_1974_april_fools_hoax_when_a_man_started_a/


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  May be a good application for GE's.  Probably wouldn't be able to hear them suck.


GEs sonic appreciation curve grows higher as we grow older and our ears start giving up on us 🤣🤣


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> @jpearson Yeah like I said, this combination would work for you. It’s laid back for sure. Vocals are not sibilant. High notes are never harsh. Very little attack here. Brimar will have a more high freq details than the Ken-Rad 6C5s. However they’re both up your alley. For the money, I’d still go with those Ken-Rads to start. They’re pretty great. You’ll eventually pickup a Brimar 6SN7 or 6J5Gs to try out.


@therremans thanks for your extensive input and testing - it's invaluable! Saving me a lot of wasted $$$ to be sure... I like your description of the Brimar 6SN7GT / GEC 6080 combo a lot here (save for the low end bit!).



therremans said:


> That price is a bit rich for those test results, imo. I’ll check it out this evening. Yes, I own just one the gray plates version. But I did score these Brimar 6J5Gs today for a bargain price and they are black plates. Link


So, I agree... What do you think they're worth, roughly speaking?  Considering making an offer...



> But I did score these Brimar 6J5Gs today for a bargain price and they are black plates. Link


With your finger so on the pulse I don't know what chance I stand to score an English L63 pair - can't believe I missed that other one you were watching though!  Trying to get myself in the game with this now...



therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2032589987...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> I purchased a set of these from this seller. They arrived NIB and tested above bogey levels. Pair with a Mullard or GEC 6080 for a warmer sound. Works well with the HD6XX. Especially good with jazz. Vocals are definitely not going to be sibilant for you. (I gave my thoughts on these in this thread if you search back.)
> 
> That’s a recommendation.


*Trigger has been pulled now on these and the GEC 6080 to mark the start of my DV tube rolling journey!  Thank you @therremans - thanks to you I am en route! *



therremans said:


> Sylvania 6J5GTs (gray plates only!) you’ll need 2x with an adapter - that signature “house” sound, mid dominant, vocals are nice and a step above the RCA above, not super detailed but just enjoyable, works with electronic and hip hop well. Can usually be found for $10 a tube!


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284640028786?hash=item4245de2872:g:IrkAAOSwhCph2yKk - are these the right ones? Plates look grey to me?



therremans said:


> Still seek out the Sylvania 6J5GT and RCA VT-94s.


Am on it! Recalling on of your earlier comments, my wife is fed-up of the saved searches now, because we share an eBay account... 



therremans said:


> Adapter: https://a.aliexpress.com/_mK5mgRm
> If you’re handy even a little bit, you can make your own adapter that’s hand wired (ask for the wiring schematic here) but the Chinese ones will work just fine..


I ordered the Chinese one, but it looks awful... Can you send me your schematic? Would it be possible to get a parts list based on the very nice looking one you've made please?


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Adapter: https://a.aliexpress.com/_mK5mgRm
> If you’re handy even a little bit, you can make your own adapter that’s hand wired (ask for the wiring schematic here) but the Chinese ones will work just fine..


I wonder if you could simply 3d print a casing around the chinese adapter to just box it out and conceal it.


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> @therremans thanks for your extensive input and testing - it's invaluable! Saving me a lot of wasted $$$ to be sure... I like your description of the Brimar 6SN7GT / GEC 6080 combo a lot here (save for the low end bit!).
> 
> 
> So, I agree... What do you think they're worth, roughly speaking?  Considering making an offer...
> ...


(Multi-quotes aren’t working.)

Brimar 6SN7GT value, $75 ballpark.

Those are indeed Sylvania 6J5GTs, price is a little high but that’s up to you. I’ve paid $5-$10 each but that’s also from American sellers. So maybe worth it..

Adapter.. yeah the Chinese ones are ugly. I’ll PM you a link to a box, some good quality sockets and a schematic.


----------



## jonathan c

jpearson said:


> @therremans thanks for your extensive input and testing - it's invaluable! Saving me a lot of wasted $$$ to be sure... I like your description of the Brimar 6SN7GT / GEC 6080 combo a lot here (save for the low end bit!).
> 
> 
> So, I agree... What do you think they're worth, roughly speaking?  Considering making an offer...
> ...


I had one of those:  flimsy…


----------



## DTgill

I have a tung sol 6080 wa how hot should that tube get?

I measured the temperature with my cheap Infared thermomotor and it's measuring it at between 84 and 171c depending on where I point the laser.


----------



## therremans

DTgill said:


> I have a tung sol 6080 wa how hot should that tube get?
> 
> I measured the temperature with my cheap Infared thermomotor and it's measuring it at between 84 and 171c depending on where I point the laser.


I’ve never measured but I think it’s fine. The 6080 runs hot.


----------



## DTgill

therremans said:


> I’ve never measured but I think it’s fine. The 6080 runs hot.


That gives the old mind a bit of peace thanks!


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> That gives the old mind a bit of peace thanks!


Yup.  If the plates start turning red you have a problem. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it at all.

The 845 below runs right at 260c.  One of the few I have to let cool a bit before handling.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yup.  If the plates start turning red you have a problem. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it at all.
> 
> The 845 below runs right at 260c.  One of the few I have to let cool a bit before handling.


Hey bcowen, you could post your charred fingertips - if still there !


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Hey bcowen, you could post your charred fingertips - if still there !







At least I'm guessing that's what it looked like


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Hey bcowen, you could post your charred fingertips - if still there !


LOL!  Pain is an excellent teacher.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> At least I'm guessing that's what it looked like


That looks more like @HTSkywalker after modding his DV.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That looks more like @HTSkywalker after modding his DV.


Double the pleasure with the 220V current while modding and that's only half  the damage that's showing in the photo 🤐🤐


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That looks more like @HTSkywalker after modding his DV pulling out the live GEs…


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That looks more like @HTSkywalker after modding his DV.


But his ears are unscathed?!?!…🤔🤪…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Pain is an excellent teacher.


Don’t tell me that you got an ‘F’ in pain 😮🤣🤣🤣...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


No live GEs or else my ears would have been  permanently damaged 😝😝


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Anti-GE's.  Nice!!!


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 11, 2022)

therremans said:


>


Are those L63s (CV1067s)?…🤩 … (is it OK for the DarkVoice to be on without a headphone plugged in?)


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


>


sweet looking tubes!  brimars are tops.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Are those L63s (CV1067s)?…🤩 … (is it OK for the DarkVoice to be on without a headphone plugged in?)


No headphones necessary as I mostly use it as a preamp tube buffer


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> sweet looking tubes!  brimars are tops.


Coming off the Tung Sol VT-94s and the Brimars still are sounding really good. Little more mids but still clear high end. I have to brag about this.. my $35 bid won the pair. 🙌


----------



## therremans

I will finally own the clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231.. A very long time ago.. once upon a time.. @JKDJedi  told me about how it sounds.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I will finally own the clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231.. A very long time ago.. once upon a time.. @JKDJedi  told me about how it sounds.


yeah @JKDJedi told me his impression as well.   it's a bold and brave kind of sentiment.  lol.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Coming off the Tung Sol VT-94s and the Brimars still are sounding really good. Little more mids but still clear high end. I have to brag about this.. my $35 bid won the pair. 🙌


35 bucks?  are you for real?  WOW.    that is insanely good.   a lot of people could basically get that pair and really call it a day in tube rolling.   I once had a pair of the Brimar 6C5Gs, and easily cost me 75+ at the time.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I will finally own the clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231.. A very long time ago.. once upon a time.. @JKDJedi  told me about how it sounds.


Were the $ bids going up or down…🤷🏻‍♂️?


----------



## DTgill

therremans said:


> I will finally own the clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231.. A very long time ago.. once upon a time.. @JKDJedi  told me about how it sounds.


I saw your new tube, and it reminded me about mine, so I dug it out of my Wally world Tupperware case and stuck into my DV I forgot how good this one was...


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> 35 bucks?  are you for real?  WOW.    that is insanely good.   a lot of people could basically get that pair and really call it a day in tube rolling.   I once had a pair of the Brimar 6C5Gs, and easily cost me 75+ at the time.


I want to own a pair of Fivre 6C5G eventually.


----------



## therremans

For anyone wondering, they sound nearly identical.


----------



## SHIMACM

This Brimar with the TS 6080 on Crack makes my HD650 sing like never before.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I will finally own the clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231.. A very long time ago.. once upon a time.. @JKDJedi  told me about how it sounds.


Nice...I thinkest you will Likey Likey .. 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> For anyone wondering, they sound nearly identical.


Is that Brimar on the far right the same Brimar you got last time we talked about them?


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Is that Brimar on the far right the same Brimar you got last time we talked about them?


I have two and pretty sure I got them around the same time. The other one has an unlabeled base.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I have two and pretty sure I got them around the same time. The other one has an unlabeled base.


Well crap.  .. 6C5G Brimars .. let me know if you see a steal out there please. (Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the waters)


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Well crap.  .. 6C5G Brimars .. let me know if you see a steal out there please. (Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the waters)


Those are 6J5Gs with black plates that I posted. I’d personally seek out whichever is cheaper. I will let you know if anything pops up on eBay for a good price. Not too many Brimars lately.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> This Brimar with the TS 6080 on Crack makes my HD650 sing like never before.


I’ve not yet heard a TS 6080 on crack.  I have the tubes, just need to find a source for the other.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I’ve not yet heard a TS 6080 on crack.  I have the tubes, just need to find a source for the other.


Crack is wack ..spliffs are more enjoyable and healthy. 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Those are 6J5Gs with black plates that I posted. I’d personally seek out whichever is cheaper. I will let you know if anything pops up on eBay for a good price. Not too many Brimars lately.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I’ve not yet heard a TS 6080 on crack.  I have the tubes, just need to find a source for the other.


Hahahaha, how did I not beat you to it.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Crack is wack ..spliffs are more enjoyable and healthy. 😁


What are you British? 😂 I would say a joint is healthier as it’s lacking the tobacco products.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> What are you British? 😂 I would say a joint is healthier as it’s lacking the tobacco products.


I concur ...


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> For anyone wondering, they sound nearly identical.


@therremans what's the Brimar on the right? Do you need a pair?


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> @therremans what's the Brimar on the right? Do you need a pair?


6sn7gt, (dual triode), so no.


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> 6sn7gt, (dual triode), so no.


Ahh OK, nice. How does it compare to the brown base 6sn7gt I/you have also got?


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> Ahh OK, nice. How does it compare to the brown base 6sn7gt I/you have also got?


Which one? If you’re referring to my other Brimar 6SN7GT (black base), it’s identical.


----------



## therremans (Apr 14, 2022)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949775703...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2949191549...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949775703...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2949191549...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


those L65 are still available.  and no one has jumped on them yet?


----------



## therremans

Who bought the Brimar pair of 6sn7s?


----------



## jpearson

therremans said:


> Which one? If you’re referring to my other Brimar 6SN7GT (black base), it’s identical.


Ahh OK, my mistake! I have the brown base. Intrigued as to whether/how it might differ to the black!


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Who bought the Brimar pair of 6sn7s?


@JKDJedi was that you? lol!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi was that you? lol!


lol... no, to heavy for me.. I'll jump on a steal but nothing like that right now.


----------



## therremans

jpearson said:


> Ahh OK, my mistake! I have the brown base. Intrigued as to whether/how it might differ to the black!


Not sure but I’d put my money on them sounding the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> those L65 are still available.  and no one has jumped on them yet?


So tempted.. $156 shipped


----------



## therremans

Couldn’t help myself… already own a few of these.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> So tempted.. $156 shipped


For $156 I’d probably hold. I think you can find a  better matching pair for around $150-$175 shipped. Not just test results but date of manf. And matching logos. If youre spending a lot, get what you want.

Some of these sell in small lots of 3-5 for a pretty good deal. Just keep watching. This might be a better deal for an English man


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> For $156 I’d probably hold. I think you can find a  better matching pair for around $150-$175 shipped. Not just test results but date of manf. And matching logos. If youre spending a lot, get what you want.
> 
> Some of these sell in small lots of 3-5 for a pretty good deal. Just keep watching. This might be a better deal for an English man


Thanks 🙏


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> For $156 I’d probably hold. I think you can find a  better matching pair for around $150-$175 shipped. Not just test results but date of manf. And matching logos. If youre spending a lot, get what you want.
> 
> Some of these sell in small lots of 3-5 for a pretty good deal. Just keep watching. This might be a better deal for an English man



Good call...I didn't read the testing #s, yeah - I'd definitely hold out more for a closer match.  Still - I just checked, and that listing ended too, so someone jumped on it.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Couldn’t help myself… already own a few of these.


Dang, man.  We're gonna have to change your username to 'thievermans'.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Dang, man.  We're gonna have to change your username to 'thievermans'.


 Hey, you can buy one for $39.95 and I will throw in a free NOS tube box. $49.95 and it ships for free.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Hey, you can buy one for $39.95 and I will throw in a free NOS tube box. $49.95 and it ships for free.


LOL!  What a deal!  Unfortunately, I just spent the last of my audio allowance on some crack for the Tung Sol. I'll probably be up for 2 or 3 days straight listening to it.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Hey, you can buy one for $39.95 and I will throw in a free NOS tube box. $49.95 and it ships for free.


I'm waiting for the "BUT WAIT! There's Moreeeee...."


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> LOL!  What a deal!  Unfortunately, I just spent the last of my audio allowance on some crack for the Tung Sol. I'll probably be up for 2 or 3 days straight listening to it.


😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I concur ...


Ditto 🤩🤩


----------



## jpearson

Slade01 said:


> Good call...I didn't read the testing #s, yeah - I'd definitely hold out more for a closer match.  Still - I just checked, and that listing ended too, so someone jumped on it.


An Englishman took it like @therremans suggested 😉


----------



## Slade01

jpearson said:


> An Englishman took it like @therremans suggested 😉



Nice!  Yeah, without the conversion...at around 100 for the pair, it's definitely priced right for you!


----------



## therremans

Just purchased this Melz from Ukraine for $50. Now I’ll have a backup as I only have one.


----------



## Deceneu808

therremans said:


> Just purchased this Melz from Ukraine for $50. Now I’ll have a backup as I only have one.


What about the backup to the backup to the backup ?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Just purchased this Melz from Ukraine for $50. Now I’ll have a backup as I only have one.


'Thievermans' strikes again.  You should probably get a mask...and a cape.  

Seriously, way nice!  Do you know what year it is?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> 'Thievermans' strikes again.  You should probably get a mask...and a cape.
> 
> Seriously, way nice!  Do you know what year it is?


No, didn’t ask the year but his other ones listed are for $100 ea. This one was only $50 because it tested just slightly below nos bogey value of 9.0 mA so he marked it as used. It tests at 8.2 / 8.6.

I’ll take that $50 savings as it’s still a nos tube as far as i’m concerned.


----------



## therremans (Apr 16, 2022)

bcowen said:


> 'Thievermans' strikes again.  You should probably get a mask...and a cape.


I don’t know, I kind of like the moniker “the tube bandit”… or “el tubo bandito” (given by @JKDJedi)


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I don’t know, I kind of like the moniker “the tube bandit”… or “el tubo bandito” (given by @JKDJedi)


“Tubero” (m)  /  “Tubera” (f) … 🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Just purchased this Melz from Ukraine for $50. Now I’ll have a backup as I only have one.


Are those photos at the seller's side or already received at your side ?? 🤞


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Are those photos at the seller's side or already received at your side ?? 🤞


… @Paladin79 stashette (one of many)…😀


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> … @Paladin79 stashette (one of many)…😀


I certainly hope the Ukraine sources work. I have stopped buying tubes for a while but still have enough to complete a few final amps for family.


----------



## therremans (Apr 20, 2022)

Revisiting the Brimar CV4058 (6C4), paired with a 5998. Still sounding wonderful. But yet these do have warmth and a decent bottom end. Detail monsters. I still recommend this combo.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Revisiting the Brimar CV4058 (6C4), paired with a 5998. Still sounding wonderful. Especially for anyone into electronic/digitally sourced music  full of details. But yet these do have warmth and a decent bottom end. I still recommend this combo.


Interesting use of ‘adadapters’🤔…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Interesting use of ‘adadapters’🤔…


AKA 'using what's in the house.'


----------



## therremans

The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.



Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


Bummer.  Is that your sticker on the tube in the left photo, or the seller's?


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Bummer.  Is that your sticker on the tube in the left photo, or the seller's?


Mine.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


Nice tester there.


----------



## Mr Trev

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


It's not dead… it's just resting


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 20, 2022)

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


The mica structure seems to differ from the copy I have, (mine seems thinner with three prongs on each edge). The paint on mine is nearly gone. The date barely legal ..oh..I meant barely visible .. (D5)?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The mica structure seems to differ from the copy I have, (mine seems thinner ). The paint on mine is nearly gone. The date barely legal ..oh..I meant barely visible ..


Nice tube, but more importantly is that pepperoni pizza in the background?  Can I have a slice?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Nice tube, but more importantly is that pepperoni pizza in the background?  Can I have a slice?


Hawkeyes!! Yes.. peperoni pizza..lol. Wifes like..you eating or gonna be on your dam phone!?


----------



## therremans

I think yours is older and probably better.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I think yours is older and probably better.


The tube or the pizza? 🤔🤪🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> Revisiting the Brimar CV4058 (6C4), paired with a 5998. Still sounding wonderful. But yet these do have warmth and a decent bottom end. Detail monsters. I still recommend this combo.


Which 5998 are you using ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> AKA 'using what's in the house.'


Indeed 😃😃 as long as no loss is induced by additional pins and connectors


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


With so many purchases lately. can't help wondering if you're divorcing 🤐🤐


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> The Ken-Rad clear glass VT-231 arrived.
> 
> Well it tests partly dead and sounds lifeless. So much for will ‘run forever’. 🤦‍♂️


Nice tester too


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Hawkeyes!! Yes.. peperoni pizza..lol. Wifes like..you eating or gonna be on your dam phone!?


Will know the answer for this question if you will reply shortly or not 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> Will know the answer for this question if you will reply shortly or not 😜😜


@JKDJedi been 5 days now we didn't hear from you, probably shopping for a new phone 😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @JKDJedi been 5 days now we didn't hear from you, probably shopping for a new phone 😜😜


His wife is still waiting for him to eat the pizza.


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> @JKDJedi been 5 days now we didn't hear from you, probably shopping for a new phone 😜😜





bcowen said:


> His wife is still waiting for him to eat the pizza.


I'm alive guys ... thanks for checking in on me... 😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I'm alive guys ... thanks for checking in on me... 😂


We have been repeatedly in similar situations  😂😂
Just put the phone aside and eat the Pizza 😁😁😁


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
🤦‍♂️


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 🤦‍♂️


seller ‘is’ a wege_high_tubes protégé…😳…


----------



## DTgill

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 🤦‍♂️


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 🤦‍♂️


OMG 😮


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 🤦‍♂️


for real, your 2k is better spent at a gentleman's club.

eh...you know seriously about the tubes, the raytheon labeling ruins it anyways...definitely not worth the high wege-bangy bang price.


----------



## therremans (Apr 27, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> for real, your 2k is better spent at a gentleman's club.
> 
> eh...you know seriously about the tubes, the raytheon labeling ruins it anyways...definitely not worth the high wege-bangy bang price.


They’re not even graphite plates.

Here’s another one.. 🤦‍♂️ https://www.ebay.com/itm/1153146587...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY - I think everyone should write this seller and let them know that those are not graphite plates. 😂


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1752564620...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Fivre 6SN7GT brown base


----------



## SHIMACM

It is with some regret that I inform my friends that my Darkvoice has left to brighten someone else's life.

With the purchase of Crack with Speedball, Darkvoice ended up not getting any more love.

Thanks to everyone here for all the tips I received and for all the fun scrolling valves on Darkvoice over that time, as well as the friendships built.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> It is with some regret that I inform my friends that my Darkvoice has left to brighten someone else's life.
> 
> With the purchase of Crack with Speedball, Darkvoice ended up not getting any more love.
> 
> Thanks to everyone here for all the tips I received and for all the fun scrolling valves on Darkvoice over that time, as well as the friendships built.


We'll be here, and Cracks are welcome here too.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> It is with some regret that I inform my friends that my Darkvoice has left to brighten someone else's life.
> 
> With the purchase of Crack with Speedball, Darkvoice ended up not getting any more love.
> 
> Thanks to everyone here for all the tips I received and for all the fun scrolling valves on Darkvoice over that time, as well as the friendships built.



onward and upward my friend!  you'll have to let us know when you start going into bottlehead crackatwoa or mainline territory someday.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> onward and upward my friend!  you'll have to let us know when you start going into bottlehead crackatwoa or mainline territory someday.



My future upgrade will likely be Crackatwoa and a top-of-the-line DAC.

Looking at your signature, I can see that you've evolved your equipment a lot, huh!?

Happy birthday!


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> We'll be here, and _Bottlehead _Cracks are welcome here too.


…for clarification 🤭…


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> My future upgrade will likely be Crackatwoa and a top-of-the-line DAC.
> 
> Looking at your signature, I can see that you've evolved your equipment a lot, huh!?
> 
> Happy birthday!



Modestly - just a bit of evolution.  Nowhere near the gear-master level like @jonathan c though.  LOL.

Still - i've near reached my end point for the foreseeable future. I might make one last move as I am thinking about swapping out my SW51 amp back to something more warm and much more tubey.   SW51+Yggy is a bit too much of a good thing for me.   You know its always been about synergy in this hobby!  

Well, if I do go back to an OTL tube amp, at least it will be fun trying to poach tubes and outbid @therremans and @JKDJedi on ebay....


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Modestly - just a bit of evolution.  Nowhere near the gear-master level like @jonathan c though.  LOL.
> 
> Still - i've near reached my end point for the foreseeable future. I might make one last move as I am thinking about swapping out my SW51 amp back to something more warm and much more tubey.   SW51+Yggy is a bit too much of a good thing for me.   You know its always been about synergy in this hobby!
> 
> Well, if I do go back to an OTL tube amp, at least it will be fun trying to poach tubes and outbid @therremans and @JKDJedi on ebay....


I can just see this…..Slade01 as the brass section, therremans as the string section, JKDJedi as the percussion section…..bcowen as the conductor (?! 😳) flailing the baton to an original composition:  The 1812 Overtube…


----------



## g3n3r1c

SHIMACM said:


> My future upgrade will likely be Crackatwoa and a top-of-the-line DAC.
> 
> Looking at your signature, I can see that you've evolved your equipment a lot, huh!?
> 
> Happy birthday!


I tend to use my BHC a lot more than my DV, but the DV has a preamp out. It delivers a noticeable effect (improvement IMO) with solid state speaker amps, and it's easy to work around the infernal volume knob. 

In the end, yeah, the DV is an entry-level product and shouldn't be mourned. I'm happy that the BHC was a hit.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I can just see this…..Slade01 as the brass section, therremans as the string section, JKDJedi as the percussion section…..bcowen as the conductor (?! 😳) flailing the baton to an original composition:  The 1812 Overtube…


I don't see the 1812 Overtube in the Marilyn Manson catalog.  How am I supposed to (correctly) conduct non-music?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 28, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I don't see the 1812 Overtube in the Marilyn Manson catalog.  How am I supposed to (correctly) conduct non-music?


I credited it as an original composition. Go MIA…..Manson Imitating Anything…


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I don't see the 1812 Overtube in the Marilyn Manson catalog.  How am I supposed to (correctly) conduct non-music?


Ok ...After this, I might be interested in this Marilyn Manson dude.... which album should I indulge in?


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> Ok ...After this, I might be interested in this Marilyn Manson dude.... which album should I indulge in endure?


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Ok ...After this, I might be interested in this Marilyn Manson dude.... which album should I indulge in?


Drink one more, then start here.     





Or here:


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 29, 2022)

There are times when seeing _is _believing. Does _music_ come via [A] or *?
[A]





*


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Ok ...After this, I might be interested in this Marilyn Manson dude.... which album should I indulge in?



all you have to do is pick an album from one of @bcowen 's blankets....


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> all you have to do is pick an album from one of @bcowen 's blankets....


Then you could put the album on and cuddle with your hated one under this:


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2656647065...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 🤦‍♂️


2K ??? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> I tend to use my BHC a lot more than my DV, but the DV has a preamp out. It delivers a noticeable effect (improvement IMO) with solid state speaker amps, and it's easy to work around the infernal volume knob.
> 
> In the end, yeah, the DV is an entry-level product and shouldn't be mourned. I'm happy that the BHC was a hit.


Agree as am also using the DV as a tube buffer with nice effect on SS amp (Mcintosh)


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Ok ...After this, I might be interested in this Marilyn Manson dude.... which album should I indulge in?


You need much heavier than a beer for that


----------



## therremans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044578919...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

My score today.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044578919...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> My score today.


Sweet!!


----------



## bcowen

Appears that Brazil must be getting seriously desperate for accordions.  That's a nice pair of Russian Novosibirsk tubes that go for $3 - $4 each these days, depending on quantity.  UFO getter can be easily seen in the 2nd photo.  Oh, and then there's the teeny weeny little fact that Amperex never made a 6SN7.   

Looks like one poor sucker has already been had.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144524442741?hash=item21a653fc75:g:OWUAAOSw5lJiYCTq


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Appears that Brazil must be getting seriously desperate for accordions.  That's a nice pair of Russian Novosibirsk tubes that go for $3 - $4 each these days, depending on quantity.  UFO getter can be easily seen in the 2nd photo.  Oh, and then there's the teeny weeny little fact that Amperex never made a 6SN7.
> 
> Looks like one poor sucker has already been had.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/144524442741?hash=item21a653fc75:g:OWUAAOSw5lJiYCTq



@bcowen and he's from your neck of the woods too!  so maybe its supposed to be accordions for wilmington.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Appears that Brazil must be getting seriously desperate for accordions.


…is the offset ‘vuvuzelas for Poland’ ? 🤔


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Appears that Brazil must be getting seriously desperate for accordions.  That's a nice pair of Russian Novosibirsk tubes that go for $3 - $4 each these days, depending on quantity.  UFO getter can be easily seen in the 2nd photo.  Oh, and then there's the teeny weeny little fact that Amperex never made a 6SN7.
> 
> Looks like one poor sucker has already been had.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/144524442741?hash=item21a653fc75:g:OWUAAOSw5lJiYCTq


Oh noooo. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Oh noooo. 🤦‍♂️


Was it you 😳🤪?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen and he's from your neck of the woods too!  so maybe its supposed to be accordions for wilmington.


LOL!  Maybe accordions for the Outer Banks.  Or outer something.  Space, maybe?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Appears that Brazil must be getting seriously desperate for accordions.  That's a nice pair of Russian Novosibirsk tubes that go for $3 - $4 each these days, depending on quantity.  UFO getter can be easily seen in the 2nd photo.  Oh, and then there's the teeny weeny little fact that Amperex never made a 6SN7.
> 
> Looks like one poor sucker has already been had.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/144524442741?hash=item21a653fc75:g:OWUAAOSw5lJiYCTq


Poor thing, probably he will pop up on this forum checking about his purchase 🤨


----------



## therremans

This 6SN7GTB looks just like a red base 5692. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1445345978...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> This 6SN7GTB looks just like a red base 5692.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1445345978...roZ8AOWRMO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


LOL!  I guess rebranding can sometimes go the other way.    

By the color of the base, I'd guess that's an RCA. Did you get it? Pretty sweet deal for whoever did.


But alas, could've saved some money with this $3 Russian tube for $47.95:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255050429543?hash=item3b6230b467:g:SEoAAOSwXD1g63Jk


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I guess rebranding can sometimes go the other way.
> 
> By the color of the base, I'd guess that's an RCA. Did you get it? Pretty sweet deal for whoever did.
> 
> ...


…pickup in Indiana…🤔…


----------



## therremans (May 3, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I'd guess that's an RCA. Did you get it? Pretty sweet deal for whoever did.


Yeah I did, wonder how it will test.. seller offers returns and sold it as “tests as new”. I bet it doesn’t, I could return if it’s pretty worn out on my tester. But at this price, it doesn’t really matter.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Yeah I did, wonder how it will test.. seller offers returns and sold it as “tests as new”. I bet it doesn’t, I could return if it’s pretty worn out on my tester. But at this price, it doesn’t really matter.


Hey - if it does test new, its an awesome deal.  If not, you return and get 50 bucks back.  This was a no-brainer.  Fantastic find and hope it is as advertised.


----------



## therremans (May 4, 2022)

Okay, so did a little experiment today with those new Sylvania 6J5GT arrivals. These new ones have a different build. The top mica is round with ladder plates. Due to Sylvania use of production codes.. I am not sure which style is older.





One style (all of mine) is pictured below. Rounded gray plates. Rectangle micas with slight curve on the ends. These are the ones I go for. I tried the black and didn’t prefer it. But I should revisit them today.

The new arrivals are pictured on the top. Ladder plates, gray. Round upper mica.

Which sound better to me? Well the new round mica version does have the signature sound I like from these. Which immediately made me happy. It’s close. There’s something with the low end I prefer with the round mica version. It hits harder and deeper. And since I use these for that kind of music most of the time.. it’s a winner.

I had never seen them before, or noticed this construction. That’s my thoughts.





Also, here’s a secret. If you ever see “Made in Italy” Sylvania 6J5GTs, grab them. It’s probably obvious if you know tubes.. but they are in fact Fivre 6J5GTs in  American clothes. I pieced together a pair when I started collecting tubes in 2020 for $5 or so. Just now realized they are indeed Fivre 6J5GTs.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Okay, so did a little experiment today with those new Sylvania 6J5GT arrivals. These new ones have a different build. The top mica is round with ladder plates. Due to Sylvania use of production codes.. I am not sure which style is older.
> 
> 
> One style (all of mine) is pictured below. Rounded gray plates. Rectangle micas with slight curve on the ends. These are the ones I go for. I tried the black and didn’t prefer it. But I should revisit them today.
> ...


Wow, a ‘wege_high_tube’ minus the ‘wege_high_price’ !! 🤣🤣


----------



## SHIMACM

One more up in the system. Verite Open. Fantastic phone! Huge synergy with Crack .


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> One more up in the system. Verite Open. Fantastic phone! Huge synergy with Crack .



Looks amazing!  Sure it sounds amazing too.  You cannot go wrong with ZMFs.


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> Looks amazing!  Sure it sounds amazing too.  You cannot go wrong with ZMFs.



I was lucky to find a used one right here in Brazil. Otherwise I would hardly buy them. With taxes, the phone would go for over $5000.


----------



## therremans (May 6, 2022)

It arrived and does test like new.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> It arrived and does test like new.


Sweet.  Nice score!


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> It arrived and does test like new.


That is quite a specimen ! 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

therremans said:


> It arrived and does test like new.


Good to hear, nice catch 👍


----------



## Slade01

I thought I was out of the tube game.  Now I'm back.  With Crack.

Thanks @SHIMACM for being a good  bad  good influence about how super-duper awesome the synergy is between ZMF and BHC.


----------



## SHIMACM

That Cool! Are you already with Crack? My Veritè with my Arcam rHead SS sounds so bland. With Crack, it's an ugly marriage in heaven.


----------



## Azmerth

Anybody use DV with ZMF Atticus or VC? I burned in my tubes for 72hrs to remove the humming and worked like a charm.

What DAC do you pair with the DV? Sporting the Bifrost 2 at the moment. Trying to get the same slam with my bifrost 2 and Burson Soloist, but seems most recommend otl for ZMF.

Will have see what tubes I have and will post shortly as I rolled them, but my DV had been sitting in the closet for some time sadly.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> That Cool! Are you already with Crack? My Veritè with my Arcam rHead SS sounds so bland. With Crack, it's an ugly marriage in heaven.



No not yet.   There is just something about an OTL tube amp (like the darkvoice -- see keeping the thread on topic!) that works well with the ZMF and Sennheiser among many high impedance cans.  I'm just looking to recapture some of that magic again.


----------



## Slade01

Azmerth said:


> Anybody use DV with ZMF Atticus or VC? I burned in my tubes for 72hrs to remove the humming and worked like a charm.
> 
> What DAC do you pair with the DV? Sporting the Bifrost 2 at the moment. Trying to get the same slam with my bifrost 2 and Burson Soloist, but seems most recommend otl for ZMF.
> 
> Will have see what tubes I have and will post shortly as I rolled them, but my DV had been sitting in the closet for some time sadly.



I know @bcowen has an Atticus and a Darkvoice...and a BF2 though I am not sure if he ever crossed the streams between these three pieces (used in different chains).  Maybe he might chime in or not about this.

From what I know about DACs you might want to go into the direction of a Gumby A2 or Yggy A1 - something a lot more energetic and incisive, or have a more concerted effort of using a tube pairing that lends to more slam (e.g tung-sol 7236 and a good sylvania/tung sol/ken-rad driver depending on what kind of slam you are looking for).


----------



## Azmerth

Slade01 said:


> No not yet.   There is just something about an OTL tube amp (like the darkvoice -- see keeping the thread on topic!) that works well with the ZMF and Sennheiser among many high impedance cans.  I'm just looking to recapture some of that magic again.





Slade01 said:


> I know @bcowen has an Atticus and a Darkvoice...and a BF2 though I am not sure if he ever crossed the streams between these three pieces (used in different chains).  Maybe he might chime in or not about this.
> 
> From what I know about DACs you might want to go into the direction of a Gumby A2 or Yggy A1 - something a lot more energetic and incisive, or have a more concerted effort of using a tube pairing that lends to more slam (e.g tung-sol 7236 and a good sylvania/tung sol/ken-rad driver depending on what kind of slam you are looking for).


Rolling with the Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB and NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE. So should be good there  

Just had a newborn so getting time to test is rough. Am getting into closed backs because of this and haven't heard much, so I bought a few that I heard much about and testing to see what fits me best. My go to in open back is Arya v2


----------



## Slade01

Azmerth said:


> Rolling with the Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB and NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE. So should be good there
> 
> Just had a newborn so getting time to test is rough. Am getting into closed backs because of this and haven't heard much, so I bought a few that I heard much about and testing to see what fits me best. My go to in open back is Arya v2



A new newborn!  Congratulations!  I was the same way - I acquired a pair of Focal Elegia closed backs at the time when my son was born.  Though I didn't get that much use out of it; babies are just "a little" demanding.  Lol.   But it's going to be exciting times for sure.   Good luck finding your next headphone that will complement your Arya.


----------



## therremans

Azmerth said:


> Anybody use DV with ZMF Atticus or VC? I burned in my tubes for 72hrs to remove the humming and worked like a charm.
> 
> What DAC do you pair with the DV? Sporting the Bifrost 2 at the moment. Trying to get the same slam with my bifrost 2 and Burson Soloist, but seems most recommend otl for ZMF.
> 
> Will have see what tubes I have and will post shortly as I rolled them, but my DV had been sitting in the closet for some time sadly.


I use a Bifrost 2 as well. I don’t have knowledge of other headphone + amp combos from experience. But I’m happy with the bass response and slam achieved with my DT 1990s + pad swap.


----------



## jonathan c

Azmerth said:


> Rolling with the Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB and NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE. So should be good there
> 
> Just had a newborn so getting time to test is rough. Am getting into closed backs because of this and haven't heard much, so I bought a few that I heard much about and testing to see what fits me best. My go to in open back is Arya v2


With a new little one, you’ll have to be ‘on call’…..that means open back h/p….😜


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I use a Bifrost 2 as well. I don’t have knowledge of other headphone + amp combos from experience. But I’m happy with the bass response and slam achieved with my DT 1990s + pad swap.



The ZMF Atticus is supposed to be a slam happy headphone.   But I was just thinking that too...in the sense that the headphone tuning could really have a profound effect on slam.

@Azmerth have you tried tuning your Atticus or VC any further? (pad swapping or mesh swapping)?


----------



## Azmerth

jonathan c said:


> With a new little one, you’ll have to be ‘on call’…..that means open back h/p….😜


Open for on call, closed when bjorning/holding!


----------



## bcowen

Azmerth said:


> Anybody use DV with ZMF Atticus or VC? I burned in my tubes for 72hrs to remove the humming and worked like a charm.
> 
> What DAC do you pair with the DV? Sporting the Bifrost 2 at the moment. Trying to get the same slam with my bifrost 2 and Burson Soloist, but seems most recommend otl for ZMF.
> 
> Will have see what tubes I have and will post shortly as I rolled them, but my DV had been sitting in the closet for some time sadly.


I've listened quite a bit with the BF2/Atticus/DV combo. Plenty of slam to be had, just needs the right combination of tubes IME.

Not sure what you mean by this:  "NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE"

Is that one tube, or do you have TungSol and Cetron 7236's and 5998's?  

Reason I ask is that a domino plate TungSol 5998 is a very different sounding tube than a Cetron (or TungSol) 7236.  And if you're wanting more slam, the TS 5998 is one way to get there quickly.  Far more meat on the bones in the lower mids/upper bass and more dynamic in the bass as well compared to the 7236.


----------



## Azmerth

bcowen said:


> I've listened quite a bit with the BF2/Atticus/DV combo. Plenty of slam to be had, just needs the right combination of tubes IME.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by this:  "NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE"
> 
> ...


Sorry, bad copy pasta, 7236 single. Good to know and will look into a bit more.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I've listened quite a bit with the BF2/Atticus/DV combo. Plenty of slam to be had, just needs the right combination of tubes IME.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by this:  "NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE"
> 
> ...


…the ‘NOSpel’ truth, as usual, from @bcowen 🥇🏆…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> With a new little one, you’ll have to be ‘on call’…..that means open back h/p….😜


Even with 2 closed doors both the Focal Elear as well as Ananda were heard in the bedrooms at night 😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Even with 2 closed doors both the Focal Elear as well as Ananda were heard in the bedrooms at night 😂😂


No Marilyn Manson FOR YOU !!! 😫🤣


----------



## bcowen

Yeah.  MM sounds best when cranked to 11, and even closed backs won't contain that.  At least that's what I've read on the internet.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah.  MM sounds best when cranked to 11, and even closed backs won't contain that.  At least that's what I've read on the internet *heard*.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yeah.  MM sounds best when cranked to 11, and even closed backs won't contain that.  At least that's what I've read on the internet.


Not sure I will survive it at 11 😂😂..... Couple it with a GE tube and say goodbye to your ears


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> No Marilyn Manson FOR YOU !!! 😫🤣


I will gladly accept my destiny 😜😜
Not sure about @bcowen though being a die hard MM follower 😃😃


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I will gladly accept my destiny 😜😜
> Not sure about @bcowen though being a die hard MM follower 😃😃


….if one follows MM, one will die hard ⚰️…😫


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ….if one follows MM, one will die hard ⚰️…😫


Or if he or she are lucky they may ends up in jail


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Or if he or she are lucky they may ends up in jail


…in solitary confinement with 24/7 Captain & Tenille….😳😫😖…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …in solitary confinement with 24/7 Captain & Tenille….😳😫😖…


That’s capital punishment 😝😝


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> That’s capital punishment 😝😝



As I am trying to re-arm this BHC amp....what I am finding that IS capital punishment are the tube prices right now online and the really low selection.  True crimes.  It's making bangy bang seem like he was just ahead of the curve for a long time up until now. Wow.


----------



## Slade01

LOL.  Just plugged in and already I blew the fuse.  Is this an omen?   Do I need The Flux Quantum Time Travel Fuse?


----------



## Slade01

@bcowen @therremans Can I run this past you guys to double check i'm reading DIY-ese correctly.  On a fuse it says T1L 250V.   This translates to Slow-Blo, 1Amp, Low Break at a max on 250volts.   Is this right?  Winner-winner chicken dinner?


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> LOL.  Just plugged in and already I blew the fuse.  Is this an omen?   Do I need The Flux Quantum Time Travel Fuse?


…only if you roll tubes at Mach One speed…


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen @therremans Can I run this past you guys to double check i'm reading DIY-ese correctly.  On a fuse it says T1L 250V.   This translates to Slow-Blo, 1Amp, Low Break at a max on 250volts.   Is this right?  Winner-winner chicken dinner?


Yeah, you got it.


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> As I am trying to re-arm this BHC amp....what I am finding that IS capital punishment are the tube prices right now online and the really low selection.  True crimes.  It's making bangy bang seem like he was just ahead of the curve for a long time up until now. Wow.


What are you looking for? I can see what I have and keep an eye out.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> What are you looking for? I can see what I have and keep an eye out.



hey thanks...appreciate it...no worries though...already put in an Amazon order so I have some coming tomorrow.  I may have to look at those fuses you got with your cables back a few weeks ago.  weren't they ceramic  ones?


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> hey thanks...appreciate it...no worries though...already put in an Amazon order so I have some coming tomorrow.  I may have to look at those fuses you got with your cables back a few weeks ago.  weren't they ceramic  ones?


You bought tubes on Amazon? I don’t mind but okay.

I had one fuse from China that blew. I didn’t purchase another because I felt that it emphasized the treble and details too much. I never got the chance to burn it in. I can link you if interested.

I purchased two of these from partsconnexion, one for the DV and one for the Bifrost 2. Much more of a subtle difference, warmth is still there.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …in solitary confinement with 24/7 Captain & Tenille….😳😫😖…


Cruel and unusual punishment is still illegal in the US AFAIK.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen @therremans Can I run this past you guys to double check i'm reading DIY-ese correctly.  On a fuse it says T1L 250V.   This translates to Slow-Blo, 1Amp, Low Break at a max on 250volts.   Is this right?  Winner-winner chicken dinner?


Well since @therremans was first and probably snagged the chicken dinner, all I can say is yup x2.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> You bought tubes on Amazon? I don’t mind but okay.



Yeah.  I just had to get it for next day delivery - for just the regular ones.  But I got 10 of them for 7 bucks.  I just took delivery of the amp, and just want to get it working.  



therremans said:


> I had one fuse from China that blew. I didn’t purchase another because I felt that it emphasized the treble and details too much. I never got the chance to burn it in. I can link you if interested.
> 
> I purchased two of these from partsconnexion, one for the DV and one for the Bifrost 2. Much more of a subtle difference, warmth is still there.



I'll have to look at the ones at partsconnexion, instead of the China/Aliexpress ones.   I just sold my silver cable due to the same reasons - just a touch too much emphasis on the treble/details.  More copper is definitely for me and my setup right now.  I definitely want stuff that retains/preserves the warmth in this case.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Cruel and unusual punishment is still illegal in the US AFAIK.


Does that punishment include high school…😜😳🤣?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> As I am trying to re-arm this BHC amp....what I am finding that IS capital punishment are the tube prices right now online and the really low selection.  True crimes.  It's making bangy bang seem like he was just ahead of the curve for a long time up until now. Wow.


A natural result with the disruption of tube's supply originating from Russia and Ukraine. 😢


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Cruel and unusual punishment is still illegal in the US AFAIK.


in Guantanamo "resort" 😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> in Guantanamo "resort" 😜


….Gitmo-by-the-bay…🌴🌴…🧉🧉…


----------



## Slade01

@JKDJedi hey - if i remember correctly, you tried running 6BL7 / power tube in the DV.  Were you ever successful in doing that?


----------



## JKDJedi (May 13, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi hey - if i remember correctly, you tried running 6BL7 / power tube in the DV.  Were you ever successful in doing that?


No, was not able to get that going. Not sure if it's the design of the Darkvoice or the design of the adapter I got from Deyan. Think I ended up selling the tubes with the adapter.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> No, was not able to get that going. Not sure if it's the design of the Darkvoice or the design of the adapter I got from Deyan. Think I ended up selling the tubes with the adapter.


Thanks!  I'm just doing some homework on how viable it is/sound comparisons compared to the 6080.   I don't want to go down too deep the rabbit hole again.   I'm just treading lightly because tube prices are really up there these days, and having a different amp, well I can't rely on everything I learned from DV tube rolling.  All the mods done on the BHC i got change the synergy playbook a bit.   I mean a decent pair of 6BL7 start probably at 50+, with 25 for an adapter.   With that in mind, I'd be most of the way there to just go for a Mullard or GEC 6080 and call it a day.    I can't even find a GE 5998a on the market.  Lol.  That's how bad it is in my opinion. 

I still stand by the comment I made a long time ago - that they should make better new production 6AS7 tubes.  C'mon Psvane get on that.


----------



## bcowen (May 13, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Thanks!  I'm just doing some homework on how viable it is/sound comparisons compared to the 6080.   I don't want to go down too deep the rabbit hole again.   I'm just treading lightly because tube prices are really up there these days, and having a different amp, well I can't rely on everything I learned from DV tube rolling.  All the mods done on the BHC i got change the synergy playbook a bit.   I mean a decent pair of 6BL7 start probably at 50+, with 25 for an adapter.   With that in mind, I'd be most of the way there to just go for a Mullard or GEC 6080 and call it a day.    I can't even find a GE 5998a on the market.  Lol.  That's how bad it is in my opinion.
> 
> I still stand by the comment I made a long time ago - that they should make better new production 6AS7 tubes.  C'mon Psvane get on that.


You could always try one to see. It has the same pinout as a 6080 / 6AS7, so no adapter needed.  It's a medium mu tube though (versus the low-mu 6080 / 6AS7G), has over 7x the amplification factor, and wants a different cathode resistor and higher plate voltage.  Don't think it will hurt anything to try (plate current and heater current are both less than the 6080), but I wouldn't be too optimistic that it'll sound great without some circuit revisions.


----------



## therremans (May 13, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Thanks!  I'm just doing some homework on how viable it is/sound comparisons compared to the 6080.   I don't want to go down too deep the rabbit hole again.   I'm just treading lightly because tube prices are really up there these days, and having a different amp, well I can't rely on everything I learned from DV tube rolling.  All the mods done on the BHC i got change the synergy playbook a bit.   I mean a decent pair of 6BL7 start probably at 50+, with 25 for an adapter.   With that in mind, I'd be most of the way there to just go for a Mullard or GEC 6080 and call it a day.    I can't even find a GE 5998a on the market.  Lol.  That's how bad it is in my opinion.
> 
> I still stand by the comment I made a long time ago - that they should make better new production 6AS7 tubes.  C'mon Psvane get on that.


The market is tough for power tubes.. It took me a couple of years to acquire two 5998s.

You can always buy this and send it off to that guy on eBay who refurbished tubes. 😂 yikes. What a rip.

Seriously though.. it’s a waiting game. A Chatham/TS 6080 could probably hold you over until the right 5998 deal appears. I have extras. A NIB mint Bendix popped up for $125. I held off and sent it to @bcowen.

GEC 6AS7G $180, link, I think la = 50/min, Gm = 7/max. Seems odd to have a min La but max Gm. I could be off here, just what I saw on the tube data sheet.

GEC 6080, $100, link

Chatham 6AS7G, link, it’s been on eBay for awhile now, I’d make a $20 offer and see.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> You can always buy this and send it off to that guy on eBay who refurbished tubes. 😂 yikes. What a rip.



LOL!  Tests weak?  Best case it's at 25%.  More like "tests well past dead".      I *will* give the seller credit though for being upfront about it rather than doing the "untested, sold as-is" BS routine.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Tests weak?  Best case it's at 25%.  More like "tests well past dead".      I *will* give the seller credit though for being upfront about it rather than doing the "untested, sold as-is" BS routine.



Reminds me of an ad, I came across this morning on us audio mart.  It's for a 6sn7 Tung Sol Black Glass or something.  But basically, the seller says _"Legendary tungsol 6sn7gt black bottle, hum from one channel, hair crack on base.  If you can use just one channel, it's good."_

I mean I don't know if he meant at the end that means the other channel is dead or something.  Lol.  But 2 points to the seller for honesty I suppose.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> The market is tough for power tubes.. It took me a couple of years to acquire two 5998s.
> 
> You can always buy this and send it off to that guy on eBay who refurbished tubes. 😂 yikes. What a rip.
> 
> ...


What a waste of a good Chatham 6AS7G there...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Thanks!  I'm just doing some homework on how viable it is/sound comparisons compared to the 6080.   I don't want to go down too deep the rabbit hole again.   I'm just treading lightly because tube prices are really up there these days, and having a different amp, well I can't rely on everything I learned from DV tube rolling.  All the mods done on the BHC i got change the synergy playbook a bit.   I mean a decent pair of 6BL7 start probably at 50+, with 25 for an adapter.   With that in mind, I'd be most of the way there to just go for a Mullard or GEC 6080 and call it a day.    I can't even find a GE 5998a on the market.  Lol.  That's how bad it is in my opinion.
> 
> I still stand by the comment I made a long time ago - that they should make better new production 6AS7 tubes.  C'mon Psvane get on that.


Mullard and or GEC... I've never heard the GEC6080, kinda curious now.


----------



## JKDJedi

And Holy Sticker Shocks..... What happened to the prices of these!?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Mullard and or GEC... I've never heard the GEC6080, kinda curious now.


Yeah they are very similar in looks/construction, and with military CV designation, it often gets confused.  That's how I ended up with a GEC 6080 at one point, seller was selling it as a Mullard.  Not that the price is all that different between the two, but the GEC is at a minimum probably a half step better than the Mullard.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You could always try one to see. It has the same pinout as a 6080 / 6AS7, so no adapter needed.  It's a medium mu tube though (versus the low-mu 6080 / 6AS7G), has over 7x the amplification factor, and wants a different cathode resistor and higher plate voltage.  Don't think it will hurt anything to try (plate current and heater current are both less than the 6080), but I wouldn't be too optimistic that it'll sound great without some circuit revisions.



yeah i mean maybe its a telling sign, as i'm combing through the BHC threads, as far as I can tell - only one person has really used it in BHC (attmci), and it seems that the max limit is to use dual 6bl7 with adapter (2 x 1.5 amp) , and only a 12au7(.5 or .6) in driver - kind of maxing out the transformer tolerance.  so there is that.  and only using one in the slot, wouldn't properly drive high impedance headphones.     kind of need more of a big boy amp with larger and moar (of everything) to handle the 1.21 jiggawatts needed for this kind of sound.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> The market is tough for power tubes.. It took me a couple of years to acquire two 5998s.
> 
> You can always buy this and send it off to that guy on eBay who refurbished tubes. 😂 yikes. What a rip.
> 
> ...



No doubt.  Yeah - I already have most of those links on the watch list.  Thanks - good looking out.  Yeah - I know its going to be a screwton of patience and a lot of luck going forward.  



JKDJedi said:


> And Holy Sticker Shocks..... What happened to the prices of these!?


Exactly, right?   I will fundamentally never pay for a light bulb that costs as much (or more) than the l(amp) i'm mounting that on!


----------



## therremans (May 14, 2022)

Todays delivery..




—







*Osram L63 Gray Glass* Pair - £51 ($63)
_Tube 1: 2100/2600
Tube 2: 2300/2600_
These gray glass L63s have become one of my new favorites, I watched these and told myself I’m not waking up at 5am to snipe them (I’ve done it). So I just threw out my max bid and went to bed. I won! Ha. They test decent for the price, slightly below my other pair (military variant). Still sounding silky smooth though.




*Melz 1578 *(59’) - $50
_Triode 1: 2550/2600
Triode 2: 2600/2600_
The Melz.. really glad to find another one of these as it’s become my favorite all ‘rounder. It tests a little better than my first and appears NOS. Glass stamp is a little more faint but present. Base is completely clean of any tags/numbers. The tube looks very fresh out of the box. Sometimes it surprises me how new something from the 50s can still look.




*Fivre 6J5/GT* export, made for Sylvania. - $30/pair
I owned two of the above, one from each print style. I happened to find one of each style on eBay for a good price and purchased them to make two pairs. They test well above bogey values. These sound nice and clean.. they’re quite balanced, as in the low/mid/high range is represented well and I do recommend them.


----------



## g3n3r1c

Slade01 said:


> I mean I don't know if he meant at the end that means the other channel is dead or something. Lol. But 2 points to the seller for honesty I suppose.


People use auctions as a way to get rid of junk. I myself put some stuff that was in my trash pile, and used fully honest descriptions. The stuff sold before I dumped it, and I made some money from people who wanted it (or deranged hoarders). 

"One person's trash is another's treasure."


----------



## jonathan c

g3n3r1c said:


> People use auctions as a way to get rid of junk. I myself put some stuff that was in my trash pile, and used fully honest descriptions. The stuff sold before I dumped it, and I made some money from people who wanted it (or *deranged hoarders*).
> 
> "One person's trash is another's treasure."


(redundant)


----------



## HTSkywalker

g3n3r1c said:


> People use auctions as a way to get rid of junk. I myself put some stuff that was in my trash pile, and used fully honest descriptions. The stuff sold before I dumped it, and I made some money from people who wanted it (or deranged hoarders).
> 
> "One person's trash is another's treasure."


Agree


----------



## MacMan31

So I know the Darkvoice plays well with the Sennheiser 6 series but what about ZMF headphones like Aeolus?


----------



## JKDJedi

MacMan31 said:


> So I know the Darkvoice plays well with the Sennheiser 6 series but what about ZMF headphones like Aeolus?


I wish I knew..


----------



## Azmerth

Running Darkvoice with ZMF Atticus and VC. 

With the Atticus, I think they are great! Great sub-bass and bass with mids, however with the VC, I feel they lack the gooeyness and warmth one might expect, but again, im just testing and rolling and figuring out if good enough compared to something like a Crackatwoa or up. Again, Ive had the Darkvoice for over a year, but sat and collected dust till I purchased two ZMF headphones, so my OTL understanding and game is weak. Learning as well what best feeds these ZMF headphones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Azmerth said:


> Running Darkvoice with ZMF Atticus and VC.
> 
> With the Atticus, I think they are great! Great sub-bass and bass with mids, however with the VC, I feel they lack the gooeyness and warmth one might expect, but again, im just testing and rolling and figuring out if good enough compared to something like a Crackatwoa or up. Again, Ive had the Darkvoice for over a year, but sat and collected dust till I purchased two ZMF headphones, so my OTL understanding and game is weak. Learning as well what best feeds these ZMF headphones.


The Atticus is one of them on my "want" list, Sennheiser 800s, and Audeze LCD2. ..


----------



## therremans




----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> So I know the Darkvoice plays well with the Sennheiser 6 series but what about ZMF headphones like Aeolus?


The DV loves high impedance 'phones, like all the ZMF's.


----------



## Azmerth

JKDJedi said:


> The Atticus is one of them on my "want" list, Sennheiser 800s, and Audeze LCD2. ..


I prefer the Atticus over the VC currently! Good bass that slams with depth. That want list is luckily getting smaller. My go to HP is the Arya v2 on Burson Soloist 3x with BF2!


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Don't know this with certainty, but the Sylvanias were quite likely made by RCA.

Seems I bought my stash of CBS/Hytron 5692's for less than $20/tube a number of years ago.  If only my stocks and 401k had done as well.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Don't know this with certainty, but the Sylvanias were quite likely made by RCA.
> 
> Seems I bought my stash of CBS/Hytron 5692's for less than $20/tube a number of years ago.  If only my stocks and 401k had done as well.


Ex GE, out of DJIA since June 2018,…🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The DV loves high impedance 'phones, like all the ZMF's.


anything 250 Ohms and above, same goes for BHC


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Chatham 6AS7G, link, it’s been on eBay for awhile now, I’d make a $20 offer and see.





JKDJedi said:


> What a waste of a good Chatham 6AS7G there...



Well gents, I made an offer and took a chance anyways on that Chatham 6AS7G.  If only for my own edification to know how it sounds, even if it ends up not lasting long. Lol.   Small price to pay for tube adventures.   "May Fortune Favor the Foolish".


----------



## HeatFan12

Dual Triodes Forever!!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

HeatFan12 said:


> Dual Triodes Forever!!!!!


💪💪💪🔥🔥Heatfan12!!!! 😎😎😎😎😎


----------



## HeatFan12

JKDJedi said:


> 💪💪💪🔥🔥Heatfan12!!!! 😎😎😎😎😎



Thanks JKD!


----------



## Slade01

@therremans telling me about a tube on ebay + me drinking beers and looking at ebay auction of said tube + drunk bid = W.  T.   H.   I won? kind of night.  lol


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> @therremans telling me about a tube on ebay + me drinking beers and looking at ebay auction of said tube + drunk bid = W.  T.   H.   I won? kind of night.  lol


ECG?


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> ECG?


LMAO 

impossible! @bcowen already hoarded most of those!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> LMAO
> 
> impossible! @bcowen already hoarded most of those!


Just trying to make the world a better place by removing nasty stuff from the marketplace.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just trying to make the world a better place by removing nasty stuff from the marketplace.  🤣🤣


GE:         we bring good things to life.

bcowen:  I remove bad things from life.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Just trying to make the world a better place by removing nasty stuff from the marketplace.  🤣🤣


We appreciate the steep price you are paying to make the world a safer place to live 😃😃😃
Especially by collecting as many as M.Manson CD and LPs from the market 😜😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> We appreciate the steep price you are paying to make the world a safer place to live 😃😃😃
> Especially by collecting as many as M.Manson CD and LPs from the market 😜😜


It’s a good thing, bcowen, that you have this public service streak, because there is no chance (even) in hell to resell MM cds & lps at a profit!!!…🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> It’s a good thing, bcowen, that you have this public service streak, because there is no chance (even) in hell to resell MM cds & lps at a profit!!!…🤣🤣🤣



i don't know dude.  there are still some gems for the hardcore collectors:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284842887667?hash=item4251f589f3:g:7SgAAOSw9IBiX1Wa


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> i don't know dude.  there are still some gems for the hardcore collectors:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284842887667?hash=item4251f589f3:g:7SgAAOSw9IBiX1Wa


😳😈


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> It’s a good thing, bcowen, that you have this public service streak, because there is no chance (even) in hell to resell MM cds & lps at a profit!!!…🤣🤣🤣


He may be compensated by Greenpeace though 😁😁 and by Hare Krishna 😆😆


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> He may be compensated by Greenpeace though 😁😁 and by Hare Krishna 😆😆


Wow. I havent heard or seen Hare Krishna since I was a kid.  I've forgotten about them until now!   

Oh. and yeah tube rolling stuff.  if you're into Hare Krishna music/meditation...try rolling a 6H13C and a Raytheon VT231 for nice air and nice upper range or a good Sylvania VT231 for richer mids.    Because, Tube Rolling! Darkvoice! Rock On!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Wow. I havent heard or seen Hare Krishna since I was a kid.  I've forgotten about them until now!
> 
> Oh. and yeah tube rolling stuff.  if you're into Hare Krishna music/meditation...try rolling a 6H13C and a Raytheon VT231 for nice air and nice upper range or a good Sylvania VT231 for richer mids.    Because, Tube Rolling! Darkvoice! Rock On!


Definitely appreciate your technical recommendation and will definitely take it into consideration but am NO HK guy 😃😃
somewhere in between MM and HK 😄and the closest to HK I listen to is Ravi & Anoushka Shankar. Nicely played on the DV with the T-Plate Raytheon


----------



## jonathan c

For me, HK is Harman-Kardon !! 😂


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Definitely appreciate your technical recommendation and will definitely take it into consideration but am NO HK guy 😃😃
> somewhere in between MM and HK 😄and the closest to HK I listen to is Ravi & Anoushka Shankar. Nicely played on the DV with the T-Plate Raytheon



Yeah the Raytheon made tubes have never let me down.  Aside from more complete or megabuck tubes like a Melz, Brimar, Fivre, I don't think another tube brings the sound that the Raytheon does to the table.   

Ravi and Anoushka Shankar are serious sitar players.  I had an Indian colleague introduce me to their music a while back.  Outstanding music and performers for sure.  I was listening to the Chinese Pipa player (virtuoso) Wu Man - so instruments like the Pipa and the Sitar held a certain fascination with me, amazing how they can play such instruments.  



jonathan c said:


> For me, HK is Harman-Kardon !! 😂



Jesus, another blast from the past name.   Yeah when I was younger, right out of college, I went through a Harman Kardon / JBL phase with home theater system setups.   HK is one of the last AVRs I bought.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Yeah the Raytheon made tubes have never let me down.  Aside from more complete or megabuck tubes like a Melz, Brimar, Fivre, I don't think another tube brings the sound that the Raytheon does to the table.
> 
> Ravi and Anoushka Shankar are serious sitar players.  I had an Indian colleague introduce me to their music a while back.  Outstanding music and performers for sure.  I was listening to the Chinese Pipa player (virtuoso) Wu Man - so instruments like the Pipa and the Sitar held a certain fascination with me, amazing how they can play such instruments.
> 
> ...


Still have my 730, purchased new in 1977.  Still works and sounds quite good for what it is.  I replaced all the electrolytic caps and bulbs in it several years ago.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Still have my 730, purchased new in 1977.  Still works and sounds quite good for what it is.  I replaced all the electrolytic caps and bulbs in it several years ago.


What's interesting is aside from the LED display, the design aesthetic from 1977 to the early 2000s did not really change much.  My last receiver was a HK AVR135.  Your 730 is really cool.  I always loved the lights of the vintage models.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> Yeah the Raytheon made tubes have never let me down.  Aside from more complete or megabuck tubes like a Melz, Brimar, Fivre, I don't think another tube brings the sound that the Raytheon does to the table.
> 
> Ravi and Anoushka Shankar are serious sitar players.  I had an Indian colleague introduce me to their music a while back.  Outstanding music and performers for sure.  I was listening to the Chinese Pipa player (virtuoso) Wu Man - so instruments like the Pipa and the Sitar held a certain fascination with me, amazing how they can play such instruments.
> 
> ...


The T-Plate Raytheon were recommended to me by @bcowen and I loved them, am using them in both the DV and as dual tube buffer using Yaqin SD-CD3, very warm and smooth performers. Sitars sound so good with tubes, very enjoyable.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> For me, HK is Harman-Kardon !! 😂


Harman became the mother company now of HK, AKG, JBL, Mark Levinson and lately Infinity after the Japan based Onkyo Mother Company declared bankruptcy


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Still have my 730, purchased new in 1977.  Still works and sounds quite good for what it is.  I replaced all the electrolytic caps and bulbs in it several years ago.


Still in pristine condition 👍👍 and am kind of pretty sure that you even upgraded some parts 😍😍


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Yeah the Raytheon made tubes have never let me down.


👍 for Raytheon 6080WC and Raytheon long-plate 12AU7.


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> 👍 for Raytheon 6080WC and Raytheon long-plate 12AU7.



Never had the opportunity to hear a Raytheon 6080, though I often see/hear that those are many times a rebranded Bendix tube.   Yeah, definitely the long plate 12au7 is great.   If you've ever heard the Raytheon 7730 - literally one of the best I have ever heard.   Though they are mostly unicorns now.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Still in pristine condition 👍👍 and am kind of pretty sure that you even upgraded some parts 😍😍


Yeah, and it's kind of amazing it's still in pristine condition after musical hosting duties at half a bazillion college parties and being schlepped into probably 30 different domiciles.  The original box is double-wall cardboard...that's probably why.    

I didn't go to any great lengths to upgrade anything, but I did use Nichicon audio grade caps as replacements.  They're only slightly more expensive than the trailer park variety.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> The original box is double-wall cardboard...that's probably why.



Was this the basis for inspiration when your incubus was built?    Durability!



bcowen said:


> I didn't go to any great lengths to upgrade anything, but I did use Nichicon audio grade caps as replacements.  They're only slightly more expensive than the trailer park variety.



What?  You mean you didn't try to stuff any mega Mundorf or mega Miflex caps into that spacious chasis?


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Was this the basis for inspiration when your incubus was built?    Durability!
> 
> 
> 
> What?  You mean you didn't try to stuff any mega Mundorf or mega Miflex caps into that spacious chasis?


The double-wall cardboard is the basis, in Carolina blue, for his home build. Remember: to the IRS, double-wall; to the National Association of Realtors, quad-wall. 🤪😏…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yeah, and it's kind of amazing it's still in pristine condition after musical hosting duties at half a bazillion college parties and being schlepped into probably 30 different domiciles.  The original box is double-wall cardboard...that's probably why.
> 
> I didn't go to any great lengths to upgrade anything, but I did use Nichicon audio grade caps as replacements.  They're only slightly more expensive than the trailer park variety.


My father used to have a Japanese Akai separate components stereo system which I used to use across the town for free music entertainment services 🤩🤩😎😎


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Was this the basis for inspiration when your incubus was built?    Durability!


LOL!  But shhhhh.....you may wake @Paladin79 . That would be bad.     


Slade01 said:


> What?  You mean you didn't try to stuff any mega Mundorf or mega Miflex caps into that spacious chasis?


I thought about it, but a 100uF 400v film cap is kind of bigger than the whole receiver.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But shhhhh.....you may wake @Paladin79 . That would be bad.
> 
> I thought about it, but a 100uF 400v film cap is kind of bigger than the whole receiver.


I am waiting for the return of Bill’s Incubus so I can upgrade the cabinet. I also have a team of people who volunteered to help with upgrades.😜😜 This should be great fun for some of us.😁


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 9, 2022)

(below)


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am waiting for the return of Bill’s Incubus so I can *reorient *the cabinet. I also have a *feline quality control official *who volunteered to help with upgrades.😜😜 This should be great fun *at the expense of one *of us.😁


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


Finnegan is also doing some quality control as I refurbish Japanese knives.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is also doing some quality control as I refurbish Japanese knives.


The zen-like master practitioner of _finne-gani…..⚔️_


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is also doing some quality control as I refurbish Japanese knives.😜


Now we know what new hobby took you away from the forum, soon you will be collecting Katanas 😃


----------



## g3n3r1c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is also


...strategizing about how to implant those knives into his paws Wolverine style. Imagine how easy it'd be to catch mice and birds.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Now we know what new hobby took you away from the forum, soon you will be collecting Katanas 😃


 I was buying specific parts for amps from Russia as well as Melz and Svetlana tubes. All of that came to a screeching halt so I turned to other hobbies while working in metal and wood.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> The zen-like master practitioner of _finne-gani…..⚔️_


Oh yeah I also retired and have more time for hobbies. In the fall I hope to buy some PrimaLuna, Sonus Faber, Aqua La Voce,  and other items to complete my dream audio system.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah I also retired and have more time for hobbies. In the fall I hope to buy some PrimaLuna, Sonus Faber, Aqua La Voce,  and other items to complete my dream audio system.


Those would be a dream coming true indeed 👌


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I was buying specific parts for amps from Russia as well as Melz and Svetlana tubes. All of that came to a screeching halt so I turned to other hobbies while working in metal and wood.


Probably dealing with the Yakuza to hoard for your new hobby 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Those would be a dream coming true indeed 👌


I am working toward that goal so it should happen. I do need to build another equipment rack and I already have solid cherry and appropriate hardware to do that. I am selling off other gear in preparation. In my possession is a DarkVoice I need to unload, it has maybe one hour on it, if that lol, doing any upgrading is probably not in the cards, I have too many requests for some of my other work.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah I also retired and have more time for hobbies. In the fall I hope to buy some PrimaLuna, Sonus Faber, Aqua La Voce,  and other items to complete my dream audio system.


Go for it! You deserve to treat yourself!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Go for it! You deserve to treat yourself!


And naturally my wife is all for any audio gear I get.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> And naturally my wife is all for any audio gear I get.


Lucky man!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah I also retired and have more time for hobbies. In the fall I hope to buy some PrimaLuna, Sonus Faber, Aqua La Voce,  and other items to complete my dream audio system.


….hmm, all Italian….🤔….you might have to add Spirit Torino….


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ….hmm, all Italian….🤔….you might have to add Spirit Torino….


PrimaLuna is from the Netherlands.🤪

I am happy with Focal Utopias. 😁


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> ….hmm, all Italian….🤔….you might have to add Spirit Torino….


He doesn't want those.  Spirit Torino looks like they put crullers on the side of those cans. Unless of course he's a Krispy kreme/dunkin doughnut fanatic!


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> PrimaLuna is from the Netherlands.🤪


🤦🏻🐼…


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> ….hmm, all Italian….🤔….you might have to add Spirit Torino….


World's tackiest Grado mod!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Go for it! You deserve to treat yourself!


He already treated himself to a Darkvoice.  Don't egg him on.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> He already treated himself to a Darkvoice.  Don't egg him on.


🤪🤪🤪.  It is somewhere in my shop, don’t make me look for it.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> He doesn't want those.  Spirit Torino looks like they put crullers on the side of those cans. Unless of course he's a Krispy kreme/dunkin doughnut fanatic!


Mmmmmmmm...Krispy Kreme.  Delicious non-food, and another culinary gift from NC to the world second only to BBQ.  😂

I fondly remember going to the original store near downtown Raleigh when I was in high school and downing a dozen doughnuts still warm from the conveyor.  Life is rarely _that_ good. 🤣


----------



## jonathan c

jonathan c said:


> 🤦🏻🐼…


The panda emoji is the closest that I could get to two black eyes….for my gaffe….


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The panda emoji is the closest that I could get to two black eyes….for my gaffe….


That was not a major gaffe, PrimaLuna sounds Italian.😉 I just decided to go for some of the best gear I have heard. It should work well in my listening space. So what if I will have five subwoofers in my downstairs?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mmmmmmmm...Krispy Kreme.  Delicious non-food, and another culinary gift from NC to the world second only to BBQ.  😂
> 
> I fondly remember going to the original store near downtown Raleigh when I was in high school and downing a dozen doughnuts still warm from the conveyor.  Life is rarely _that_ good. 🤣


What about bacon/maple KK with smoky BBQ sauce on it….???


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That was not a major gaffe, PrimaLuna sounds Italian.😉 I just decided to go for some of the best gear I have heard. It should work well in my listening space. *So what if I will have five subwoofers in my downstairs?*


That's the best way I know of to get subterranean bass.  🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What about bacon/maple KK with smoky BBQ sauce on it….???


That sounds really nasty.  I'm a purist -- just regular glazed KK's.  Chocolate covered, jelly filled, flavored icing.......heresy!  Kinda like putting A1 or Heinz 57 on a good steak, there should be laws preventing such.  😂😂


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 10, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> That was not a major gaffe, PrimaLuna sounds Italian.😉 I just decided to go for some of the best gear I have heard. It should work well in my listening space. So what if I will have five subwoofers in my downstairs?


Can you augment the system with [ DC-20Hz ] infrawoofers?….🤔


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That sounds really nasty.  I'm a purist -- just regular glazed KK's.  Chocolate covered, jelly filled, flavored icing.......heresy!  Kinda like putting A1 or Heinz 57 on a good steak, there should be laws preventing such.  😂😂


….kinda like putting ECGs in a good h/p/a…there should be….


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> That was not a major gaffe, PrimaLuna sounds Italian.😉 I just decided to go for some of the best gear I have heard. It should work well in my listening space. So what if I will have five subwoofers in my downstairs?


I remember reading an article in Audio mag. ages ago. The guy used something like 8 12" woofers in his basement vented into his upstairs listening room. Apparently could hit over 100db @ 18hz. Apparently he never did find the full output because the vinyl window frames in his house were flexing too much and he was worried about breaking them


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ….kinda like putting ECGs in a good h/p/a…there should be….


That should be punished by 6 months of solitary confinement with Captain and Tenille blasted 24/7 at 110 dB through a PA speaker.  You know, kind of like at @Ripper2860 's house.  😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That should be punished by 6 months of solitary confinement with Captain and Tenille blasted 24/7 at 110 dB through a PA speaker.  You know, kind of like at @Ripper2860 's house.  😂😂


The 24/7 CAT treatment sounds _familiar…🤔_


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> That was not a major gaffe, PrimaLuna sounds Italian.😉 I just decided to go for some of the best gear I have heard. It should work well in my listening space. So what if I will have five subwoofers in my downstairs?


Use (any/all) chimneys as transmission line systems…🤔


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Mmmmmmmm...Krispy Kreme.  Delicious non-food, and another culinary gift from NC to the world second only to BBQ.  😂
> 
> I fondly remember going to the original store near downtown Raleigh when I was in high school and downing a dozen doughnuts still warm from the conveyor.  Life is rarely _that_ good. 🤣



Amen to that.  When the Hot Light is on - it's on like Donkey Kong.  I've swerved through a few lanes of traffic to hit up KK when it's coming out fresh.






bcowen said:


> I'm a purist -- just regular glazed KK's.  Chocolate covered, jelly filled, flavored icing.......heresy!  Kinda like putting A1 or Heinz 57 on a good steak, there should be laws preventing such.  😂😂


Exactly.  When it comes to KK, you can really just stop at regular glazed.    For what they produce, why mess with perfection.  Lol.

@jonathan c in fairness, i've had a good Maple/Bacon Doughnut from my local doughnut shop.  It's hard to find a good one though - a lot of places simply over do it with the maple or the bacon or both, and just kills it in a bad way, which really does amount to slathering/drowning an already perfectly good steak with A1.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 11, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Can you augment the system with [ DC-20Hz ] infrawoofers?….🤔


I best not, at about 15 hertz you start to hit the resonant frequency of the human eye and as one scientist found out, it caused him to see what he believed to be ghosts.

Such frequencies are used by large mammals to communicate and have other effects. Not far away we have an exotic feline rescue center. 
https://efrc.org/

They have over 100 large cats and when they begin roaring you feel it as much as hear it. Some think the sound helps freeze their prey.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> That should be punished by 6 months of solitary confinement with Captain and Tenille blasted 24/7 at 110 dB through a PA speaker.  You know, kind of like at @Ripper2860 's house.  😂😂



You scoff, but...





I'll take Muskrat Love over anything Marilyn Manson.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll take Muskrat Love over anything Marilyn Manson.


That's probably the only song pre-programmed into your Barbie car radio.  🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am working toward that goal so it should happen. I do need to build another equipment rack and I already have solid cherry and appropriate hardware to do that. I am selling off other gear in preparation. In my possession is a DarkVoice I need to unload, it has maybe one hour on it, if that lol, doing any upgrading is probably not in the cards, I have too many requests for some of my other work.


Would be odd having the DV in the same rack with the planned upgrades 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> And naturally my wife is all for any audio gear I get.


Women are fine with audio gear as long as it's not bulky as normally size reflects price 😃
The won't realize the difference between an Astell & Kern player and a Chinese one or a $10 headphone and a $4K one 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ….hmm, all Italian….🤔….you might have to add Spirit Torino….


Am not sure Mrs. @Paladin79 would tolerate this price tag but still a good marriage stress test 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> He already treated himself to a Darkvoice.  Don't egg him on.


That's mean, even from you lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> 🤪🤪🤪.  It is somewhere in my shop, don’t make me look for it.


Just plug it in and follow the heat source 😂


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> 🤪🤪🤪.  It is somewhere in my shop, don’t make me look for it.


Turn off all/any fluorescent lights; then follow the hum….👂


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Turn off all/any fluorescent lights; then follow the hum….👂


Leave it on long enough and you can follow the smoke too.


----------



## Slade01

So I was perfectly happy listening to the Chatham 6AS7G.  Then I was fortunate enough thanks to @therremans thumbsup:the tube sherpa) alerting me to a 5998 which I just got and was testing.  First few minutes into it, i thought - hey these are close...not so far apart.   Then more time into it, the sound extended MOAR.  Only thing that kept going in my head is what is the wizardry, this witchcraft?   So now, I switched back the Chatham 6AS7G and everything seems just dull and compressed now.   Its ruined!  Lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> So I was perfectly happy listening to the Chatham 6AS7G.  Then I was fortunate enough thanks to @therremans thumbsup:the tube sherpa) alerting me to a 5998 which I just got and was testing.  First few minutes into it, i thought - hey these are close...not so far apart.   Then more time into it, the sound extended MOAR.  Only thing that kept going in my head is what is the wizardry, this witchcraft?   So now, I switched back the Chatham 6AS7G and everything seems just dull and compressed now.   Its ruined!  Lol.


Bottom getter I bet.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Bottom getter I bet.


Yes indeed.   Although I have one with a top getter also.  Haven't tried it yet.  So the bottom getter / clear top I've heard is more in-line with the 421a WE construction, while the top getter is the Tung-Sol construction?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Yes indeed.   Although I have one with a top getter also.  Haven't tried it yet.  So the bottom getter / clear top I've heard is more in-line with the 421a WE construction, while the top getter is the Tung-Sol construction?


I am not sure lol. I am but a simple woodworker these days, trying to keep all my fingers in their original location.   
Soon I will make a pair of these....

https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure lol. I am but a simple woodworker these days, trying to keep all my fingers in their original location.
> Soon I will make a pair of these....
> 
> https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/


As long as finnegan is supervising, you'll be fine.  Those are pretty awesome concept (don't give my wallet another reason to hate me).


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure lol. I am but a simple woodworker these days, trying to keep all my fingers in their original location.
> Soon I will make a pair of these....
> 
> https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/


You are a simple woodworker and I am a simple half assed engineer, while AudioGal talks to trees---.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> As long as finnegan is supervising, you'll be fine.  Those are pretty awesome concept (don't give my wallet another reason to hate me).


Making my own, I should have only $200 in them plus my labor.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Making my own, I should have only $200 in them plus my labor.



OMG. For a hot second I thought you partnered up with decware for a side biz!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure lol. I am but a simple woodworker these days, trying to keep all my fingers in their original location.
> Soon I will make a pair of these....
> 
> https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/


"Tiny" and "Speakers" never go together for me.  Now some GodzillaRadials might be right up my alley.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> "Tiny" and "Speakers" never go together for me.  Now some GodzillaRadials might be right up my alley.


oh come on, these are for Finnegan to listen to out in my shop. I have the perfect Class A SET amp I can hook to them since I will have a Cary and PrimaLuna in my main listening area.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> OMG. For a hot second I thought you partnered up with decware for a side biz!


No lol, I am retired. The owner of DecWare is a woodworker and he does tube audio. How can I not admire such a man and borrow his design for the mini speakers.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No lol, I am retired. The owner of DecWare is a woodworker and he does tube audio. How can I not admire such a man and borrow his design for the mini speakers.


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, not that I would know anything about that personally.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> You are a simple woodworker and I am a simple half assed engineer, while AudioGal talks to trees---.


…bcowen is a “tube whisperer”…🧙‍♂️…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …bcowen is a “tube whisperer”…🧙‍♂️…


Tube stalker perhaps?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Tube stalker perhaps?


…of Fotonic proportions…🤣🤪…


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 14, 2022)

Anyone came across those phones :
https://raalrequisite.com/true-ribbon-headphones/sr1a-earfield-monitors/
The reviews are overwhelming and the price tag is not way beyond the Utopia or the HM Shangri-La


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone came across those phones :
> https://raalrequisite.com/true-ribbon-headphones/sr1a-earfield-monitors/
> The reviews are overwhelming and the price tag is not way beyond the Utopia or the HM Shangri-La



I've heard _of _them, but never heard them myself.  Schiit even makes an amp dedicated to drive them...they are quite power hungry.

https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-r


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've heard _of _them, but never heard them myself.  Schiit even makes an amp dedicated to drive them...they are quite power hungry.
> 
> https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-r


I believe @FLTWS owns them, he is a good friend and would most likely answer your questions unless you mention @bcowen then all bets are off.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I've heard _of _them, but never heard them myself.  Schiit even makes an amp dedicated to drive them...they are quite power hungry.
> 
> https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-r


They come with a same brand amp but Jotunheim-r is also an option


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @FLTWS owns them, he is a good friend and would most likely answer your questions unless you mention @bcowen then all bets are off.


Especially if he sees him wearing an M.Manson shirt


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> They come with a same brand amp but Jotunheim-r is also an option


yep I do believe the gentleman I mentioned owns the Schiit amp as well as the RAAL HSA-1B.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @FLTWS owns them, he is a good friend and would most likely answer your questions unless you mention @bcowen then all bets are off.


Oh, please.  @FLTWS is a gentleman and a scholar, unlike some other people I know.  Like, where's @JKDJedi when you need him?  🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Oh, please.  @FLTWS is a gentleman and a scholar, unlike some other people I know.  Like, where's @JKDJedi when you need him?  🤣


Indeed where is @JKDJedi ? last seen on May 23 🤨🤨 
Makes me wonder 🤐🤐


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Indeed where is @JKDJedi ? last seen on May 23 🤨🤨
> Makes me wonder 🤐🤐


Last I spoke to him, he was getting into other hobbies.


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> Indeed where is @JKDJedi ? last seen on May 23 🤨🤨
> Makes me wonder 🤐🤐



@JKDJedi is probably mountain biking some grand mountain somewhere in the west coast listening to the ultimate hi-res nature sounds (a.k.a real life outdoors).


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi is probably mountain biking some grand mountain somewhere in the west coast listening to the ultimate hi-res nature sounds (a.k.a real life outdoors).


Either that, or getting his wheel spokes cryo-treated and quantum tunneled.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Last I spoke to him, he was getting into other hobbies.


Don't tell me other hobbies as in collecting Japanese swords and knives too 😜
As you're probably looking for an apprentice  😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi is probably mountain biking some grand mountain somewhere in the west coast listening to the ultimate hi-res nature sounds (a.k.a real life outdoors).


Thought his biking and hiking days are a bit behind him 😐😐
Sitting somewhere in a grand mountain listening to nature is more like it 😎😎


----------



## Slade01

So I was feeling a little nostalgic with the DV sound this morning.   I was tube rolling around trying to get the crack/speedball sound sort of back(wards) into the DV thicker bass sound.   I had to put my ken-rads in paired with a *GE 6080*.  @bcowen did you feel the tremor in the force!?!

Lol. That GE was like a reactor pumping out that bloomy bass.    I feel sort of like i'm trying to sling mud onto something that is squeaky clean.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> So I was feeling a little nostalgic with the DV sound this morning.   I was tube rolling around trying to get the crack/speedball sound sort of back(wards) into the DV thicker bass sound.   I had to put my ken-rads in paired with a *GE 6080.  @bcowen did you feel the tremor in the force!?!*
> 
> Lol. That GE was like a reactor pumping out that bloomy bass.    I feel sort of like i'm trying to sling mud onto something that is squeaky clean.


It was more than a tremor. More similar to when Darth Vader farted and caught his cape on fire.  🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 21, 2022)

bcowen said:


> It was more than a tremor. More similar to when Darth Vader farted and caught his cape on fire.  🤣🤣






May the F#$% be with you 🙂🙂🙂


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> May the F#$% be with you 🙂🙂🙂


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> May the F#$% be with you 🙂🙂🙂


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> May the F#$% be with you 🙂🙂🙂



All that.   I see why that happened:


----------



## Mr Trev

Infamous off-topic post time…

Any of you DIY guys use anything like this? https://www.amazon.ca/Headband-Magnifier-Wearing-Magnifying-Jewelry/dp/B078W76XPF
I'm planning on doing a reshell/recable on a pair of my IEMs and I can feel my eyes trying to permanently cross just looking at them. Absolutely gonna need some magnification


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Infamous off-topic post time…
> 
> Any of you DIY guys use anything like this? https://www.amazon.ca/Headband-Magnifier-Wearing-Magnifying-Jewelry/dp/B078W76XPF
> I'm planning on doing a reshell/recable on a pair of my IEMs and I can feel my eyes trying to permanently cross just looking at them. Absolutely gonna need some magnification


I have those which I ordered from Ali Express, highly recommended.
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B016N6NA92...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=


----------



## g3n3r1c

Mr Trev said:


> Infamous off-topic post time…
> 
> Any of you DIY guys use anything like this? https://www.amazon.ca/Headband-Magnifier-Wearing-Magnifying-Jewelry/dp/B078W76XPF
> I'm planning on doing a reshell/recable on a pair of my IEMs and I can feel my eyes trying to permanently cross just looking at them. Absolutely gonna need some magnification


I have a pair for working on watch bands and electronics. Mine came from either AliExpress (@HTSkywalker) or GearBest. They do work, but I use the lowest level of magnification because the distortion is high and the field of view is tiny. Cheap lenses of course.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Infamous off-topic post time…
> 
> Any of you DIY guys use anything like this? https://www.amazon.ca/Headband-Magnifier-Wearing-Magnifying-Jewelry/dp/B078W76XPF
> I'm planning on doing a reshell/recable on a pair of my IEMs and I can feel my eyes trying to permanently cross just looking at them. Absolutely gonna need some magnification


I used to use those, but then got Lasik which re-tuned and restored my X-Ray vision.    

Seriously, I've never tried that particular kind.  I've used something similar to the below for many years and it's a big help for me. 

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09V49DGNF...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


----------



## Mr Trev (Jun 23, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I used to use those, but then got Lasik which re-tuned and restored my X-Ray vision.
> 
> Seriously, I've never tried that particular kind.  I've used something similar to the below for many years and it's a big help for me.
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09V49DGNF...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


Never had much luck with them big mag lamps. Always smack into them with my head.

Maybe I'll give this a try: https://www.amazon.ca/Weller-Helping-Hands-Magnifier-WLACCHHB-02/dp/B08FQB6XT3
If nothing else, the clips should cut down on the amount of profanities


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I used to use those, but then got Lasik which re-tuned and restored my X-Ray vision.
> 
> Seriously, I've never tried that particular kind.  I've used something similar to the below for many years and it's a big help for me.


….essential to counting my caddy pay from @UntilThen ….😕


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen needs this to count his pay.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I used to use those, but then got Lasik which re-tuned and restored my X-Ray vision.
> 
> Seriously, I've never tried that particular kind.  I've used something similar to the below for many years and it's a big help for me.
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09V49DGNF...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


Yeah have the same too in my workshop, very comfortable to work with but needs to be fixed to the bench although Lasik could be a cheaper option if covered by the insurance company 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Never had much luck with them big mag lamps. Always smack into them with my head.
> 
> Maybe I'll give this a try: https://www.amazon.ca/Weller-Helping-Hands-Magnifier-WLACCHHB-02/dp/B08FQB6XT3
> If nothing else, the clips should cut down on the amount of profanities


DON'T.... At some point the screws won't close firm enough to hold anything with a bit of weight and the banana clips teeth are so sharp they can cut through wire's jacket


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen needs this to count his pay.


@bcowen got paid in English pounds 🤩 for his overseas covert operation tracking Tube smugglers for the MI-6 😃😃😃


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen got paid in English pounds 🤩 for his overseas covert operation tracking Tube smugglers for the MI-6 😃😃😃



On Her Majesty secret service? Could he be the new James Bond?


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> On Her Majesty secret service? Could he be the new James Bond?


Could be in fact as we only hear and know bits and pieces about his latest job including night shifts, dealing with strange glowy items from WW era, a large cash flow and sexy chicks floating around him  😎😎


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> On Her Majesty secret service? Could he be the new James Bond?


Obviously it’s From Russia With Love…🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> DON'T.... At some point the screws won't close firm enough to hold anything with a bit of weight and the banana clips teeth are so sharp they can cut through wire's jacket


OK. Any reccy for something else I could use to hold tiny drivers to solder tiny wires onto?


----------



## pravous

You can get “soldering heat sink” clips that do not have serrated teeth.  Something like these.   Soldering heat sink.  If you are worried about damaging wires you can also use heat shrink on banana clips as well.


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> OK. Any reccy for something else I could use to hold tiny drivers to solder tiny wires onto?


Yeah don't get that weller helping hands one.   @HTSkywalker was right on that.  I had similar issues.  I ended up getting the dr.octopus looking one to replace that weller helping hands and its been pretty good for me for general purpose stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Fl...r_1_2?keywords=Chanseon&qid=1656098979&sr=8-2


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen needs this to count his pay.


Does that count to 1 accurately?


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Could be in fact as we only hear and know bits and pieces about his latest job including night shifts


I'm stuck on night shift waiting for a day shift position to open up.  I may have to use my license to kill one of those day shifters.  


HTSkywalker said:


> dealing with strange glowy items from WW era


It's some plutonium the Germans tried to enrich, but something went wrong.  I avoid eating it.


HTSkywalker said:


> a large cash flow


It's $10 a week, which is $9 a week more than @UntilThen pays me to caddy. I feel rich.


HTSkywalker said:


> and sexy chicks floating around him  😎😎


Problem is they float right on by.  I need a harpoon.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm stuck on night shift waiting for a day shift position to open up.  I may have to use my license to kill one of those day shifters.
> 
> It's some plutonium the Germans tried to enrich, but something went wrong.  I avoid eating it.
> 
> ...


….you have one already, don’t you….🤣🤣?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> ….you have one already, don’t you….🤣🤣?



You don't know he has one .................. only.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ….you have one already, don’t you….🤣🤣?


No, but I found one on Ebay.  Still searching for the sexy chick though.  Can't find any up for auction currently.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> No, but I found one on Ebay.  Still searching for the sexy chick though.  Can't find any up for auction currently.


Hope you meant a harpoon on auction and not the chick 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Hope you meant a harpoon on auction and not the chick 🤣🤣


No, there's an auction for the harpoon already....still looking for one on the chick.  Seem to be as scarce as tubes these days.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

🤣🤣🤣…. “Thar she blows’…!!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> 🤣🤣🤣…. “Thar she blows’…!!


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I suppose "sexy" is a subjective term, but I *do* have minimum requirements.  A full set of teeth is one of them.  😀😀


----------



## UntilThen

How do I undo what I've seen now?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi is probably mountain biking some grand mountain somewhere in the west coast listening to the ultimate hi-res nature sounds (a.k.a real life outdoors).


Sorry guys..and yes mountain biking again, I had no business doing it but bought a seasons pass to Big Bear Summit Bike Park, I will break a leg at some point this summer. I'm gonna play catch up here soon, I was thinking of my main man Bill this morning, The classic, reverenced, undeniably, King of Kings, *Frankenstein *is doing the driving duties and delivered on the majestic wings of the *Chatham* 5998 (listening to my favorite Jazz playlist)... dam that coffee was good.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 25, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> Don't tell me other hobbies as in collecting Japanese swords and knives too 😜
> As you're probably looking for an apprentice  😆😆


I would like to own a genuine samurai sword at one point.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I would like to own a genuine samurai sword at one point.


To go mountain biking with?  That sounds weird.  🤣

(nice to see you drop in for a visit!)


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> 🤣🤣🤣…. “Thar she blows’…!!


That’s a deeply discounted “item” 😝😝


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> I would like to own a genuine samurai sword at one point.



A real Samurai Katana would cost an arm and a leg and I mean literally once The wife knows the real price 😍😍😍
Stay with the harmless tubes as they don’t reflect a high value 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> To go mountain biking with?  That sounds weird.  🤣
> 
> (nice to see you drop in for a visit!)


He’ll have to trade the bike for a horse 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> I suppose "sexy" is a subjective term, but I *do* have minimum requirements.  A full set of teeth is one of them.  😀😀


On a tube rating scale An acceptable chick should be RCA equivalent and above and not a GE like the one @jonathan c advertised with missing micas 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> I suppose "sexy" is a subjective term, but I *do* have minimum requirements.  A full set of teeth is one of them.  😀😀


That’s what you end up with using a harpoon to gather floating chicks 😂😂


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> To go mountain biking with?  That sounds weird.  🤣
> 
> (nice to see you drop in for a visit!)



I almost ran over a bear, years back. I could see packing a sword for self-defence (and it'd look way more badass than a can of bear spray)
Speaking of bear spray… here's a PSA for all


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> On a tube rating scale An acceptable chick should be RCA equivalent and above and not a GE like the one @jonathan c advertised with missing micas 😂😂😂


…and right gum getters…😑


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I almost ran over a bear, years back. I could see packing a sword for self-defence (and it'd look way more badass than a can of bear spray)
> Speaking of bear spray… here's a PSA for all


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

Just a heads up for those with the Sennheiser HD600,650,6XX, ZMF now has their version of replacement pads. The suede pads are highly recommended.
https://shop.zmfheadphones.com/products/zmf-hd6xx-earpads


----------



## g0ldl10n

JKDJedi said:


> These little 9 pin tubes sounds really good, old acquaintance dropped a bunch of them at my worksite and said have at it, take what you want, so far just the 12AU7 , have a few others but not sure if they are compatible.Have a 6GU7,Raytheon12AT7WA, 6BK7,6GH8A, I'm hesitant to try them.. Dont want to fry the Darkness..
> 
> These go dirt cheap on Ebay, $3-7 and I'm told sound just as good as the 6SN7 variants. Found the adapter on Ebay as well. I found the 12AU7 listed as compatible to the 6SN7 so did not hesitate to warm her up.
> 
> ...


Sorry to dig this up after a few years, but have a specific question for you (since you mentioned 6N7G/ECC31 as compatible with DV) and anyone else that cares to chime in.

I've been doing digging trying to determine max current the DV transformer can handle, and specifically if 6N7G tubes were safe to run in it, since 6N7G datasheet does show it pulls 0.8 amps, whereas 6SN7 pulls 0.6. 

As you can imagine, I've gotten conflicting answers - some such as yourself state they are safe, while others have claimed they are not. Have you specifically used 6N7/ECC31 tubes in your DV via adapter before?

Has, or does anyone here consistently run/roll 6N7/ECC31 driver tubes in their DV? Is this actually a safe tube for the DV? 

Any clarity on this would be super appreciated.


----------



## JKDJedi

g0ldl10n said:


> Sorry to dig this up after a few years, but have a specific question for you (since you mentioned 6N7G/ECC31 as compatible with DV) and anyone else that cares to chime in.
> 
> I've been doing digging trying to determine max current the DV transformer can handle, and specifically if 6N7G tubes were safe to run in it, since 6N7G datasheet does show it pulls 0.8 amps, whereas 6SN7 pulls 0.6.
> 
> ...


I'm probably not the best one to answer this one as I don't see much difference between .8 to .6.. does 2 points matter? And there's an adapter specifically made for these tubes to sit in the 6SN7 slot...and Yeah they had plenty of power (from memory) too and I personally never tested the limits to these guys but these and a 421a behind them was plenty of power. Not measured by instruments but just the perception I got from listening to them. As for long term use, I couldn't answer that either. It was fun rolling them while I had them. Someone in Vegas bought them off me. I just had them by chance and when I saw the adapter available, jumped on the opportunity to roll them. What do you think is gonna happen, your Darkvoice will explode? Mine didn't. Roll at your own risk though.


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 9, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm probably not the best one to answer this one as I don't see much difference between .8 to .6.. does 2 points matter? And there's an adapter specifically made for these tubes to sit in the 6SN7 slot...and Yeah they had plenty of power (from memory) too and I personally never tested the limits to these guys but these and a 421a behind them was plenty of power. Not measured by instruments but just the perception I got from listening to them. As for long term use, I couldn't answer that either. It was fun rolling them while I had them. Someone in Vegas bought them off me. I just had them by chance and when I saw the adapter available, jumped on the opportunity to roll them. What do you think is gonna happen, your Darkvoice will explode? Mine didn't. Roll at your own risk though.


Ah, definitely don't think it's gonna explode, just trying to avoid turning it into a paperweight, lol.

Saw that adapter too.. ordered it along with a couple 6N7 tubes.. guess I will find out soon enough, gonna go for it.


----------



## bcowen

g0ldl10n said:


> Ah, definitely don't think it's gonna explode, just trying to avoid turning it into a paperweight, lol.
> 
> Saw that adapter too.. ordered it along with a couple 6N7 tubes.. guess I will find out soon enough, gonna go for it.


The 6N7 is a very different tube than the 6SN7.  It has almost double the amplification factor, has much higher plate resistance, specifies a much higher cathode resistor value, and has a common cathode as it was intended to be used with the triodes run in parallel.  None of these are show-stoppers as far as whether it will work or damage the amp, but the sonics will be a huge question mark.  The extra 200ma's of heater current is unlikely to cause a problem, and if @JKDJedi didn't melt his amp you'll probably be fine too.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The 6N7 is a very different tube than the 6SN7.  It has almost double the amplification factor, has much higher plate resistance, specifies a much higher cathode resistor value, and has a common cathode as it was intended to be used with the triodes run in parallel.  None of these are show-stoppers as far as whether it will work or damage the amp, but the sonics will be a huge question mark.  The extra 200ma's of heater current is unlikely to cause a problem, and if @JKDJedi didn't melt his amp you'll probably be fine too.


…a melted DV is not a tragedy…🤔


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> …a melted DV is not a tragedy…🤔


melting your amp. for those who want that extra "warmth"!


----------



## g0ldl10n

bcowen said:


> The 6N7 is a very different tube than the 6SN7.  It has almost double the amplification factor, has much higher plate resistance, specifies a much higher cathode resistor value, and has a common cathode as it was intended to be used with the triodes run in parallel.  None of these are show-stoppers as far as whether it will work or damage the amp, but the sonics will be a huge question mark.  The extra 200ma's of heater current is unlikely to cause a problem, and if @JKDJedi didn't melt his amp you'll probably be fine too.


Well, I am gonna go for it once I get the adapter and tubes in - worse case scenario, DV becomes paperweight and I am _forced _to purchase Eufonika H5.


----------



## JKDJedi

g0ldl10n said:


> Well, I am gonna go for it once I get the adapter and tubes in - worse case scenario, DV becomes paperweight and I am _forced _to purchase Eufonika H5.


You'll be fine, just don't crank the volume.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …a melted DV is not an anomaly…🤔


FTFY.   🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

Quick question, and I think I know the answer already. Right channel, have a history of it going out sometimes, and I've tossed some tubes for it, only to find out..it's somehow related to the power switch. If I flick the power switch off and on it almost always brings back the right channel. Bad resistor or weak soldering in there somewhere?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Quick question, and I think I know the answer already. Right channel, have a history of it going out sometimes, and I've tossed some tubes for it, only to find out..it's somehow related to the power switch. If I flick the power switch off and on it almost always brings back the right channel. Bad resistor or weak soldering in there somewhere?


The power switch shouldn't have anything to do with a left/right channel thing.  If it was flaky or had a bad solder connection , the entire amp would shut down (or power up) on its own. And there's no resistor on the power switch.  I'd check the solder connections on the tube sockets first. If there is a bad connection somewhere on them, flipping the power switch may just vibrate things enough for the connection to be made and give the appearance the power switch is the culprit.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The power switch shouldn't have anything to do with a left/right channel thing.  If it was flaky or had a bad solder connection , the entire amp would shut down (or power up) on its own. And there's no resistor on the power switch.  I'd check the solder connections on the tube sockets first. If there is a bad connection somewhere on them, flipping the power switch may just vibrate things enough for the connection to be made and give the appearance the power switch is the culprit.


I'll open her up this weekend. Time to get that iron out. Thanks.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I'll open her up this weekend. Time to get that _hammer out._ Thanks.


FTFY


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> FTFY


😂😂😂😂😂 Probably so ..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂😂😂 Probably so ..


And just remember: if a hammer won't fix it, duct tape probably will.   🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> And just remember: if a hammer won't fix it, duct tape probably will.   🤣


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 12, 2022)

HOWIE13 said:


> These K-R and Hytron were humming/buzzing real loud so I wouldn't recommend even purchasing them for DV, unless you are prepared to take the risk. Interestingly they worked fine in other amps I've used, The RCA's for some reason are very quiet in DV., Maybe better grounded. I have never understood the mysteries of tube hums.


I know I am probably resurrecting these comments, but wanted to say I just got in a pair of Ken Rad and NU 7193 tubes. The NU tubes dead silent from the first time i used them, and they were NIB JAN versions. However, the Ken Rads had a hum on the left channel, so I did what ive done to fix this on many tubes, left them plugged in, amp on, w/o the power tube for at least 4 hours, some take longer, but the hum has already been improved about 90% after 2 hours, can hardly hear it anymore, so i know a few more hours they will be silent like the NU. Let me say, the hum before this initial burn in was really really loud, some of the loudest ive heard before.. very happy this is working because they sound freakin amazing.

So anyone looking into the Ken Rads, burning them in for me has worked.


----------



## JKDJedi

It was a very loose resistor, (I think that's what you call them). It detached from the main rail. Hopefully I got it back on sturdy enough. And man...what a difference a solid connection makes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It was a very loose resistor, (I think that's what you call them). It detached from the main rail. Hopefully I got it back on sturdy enough. And man...what a difference a solid connection makes.


Cool.  Hope you got it back on _electrically_ sturdy enough.   🤣


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Cool.  Hope you got it back on _electrically_ sturdy enough. 🤣


well it is challenging to attach resistors and such to a cardboard pcb!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> well it is challenging to attach resistors and such to a cardboard pcb!


That's where duct tape comes in.   🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …a melted DV is not a tragedy…🤔


True since normally it burns or explodes 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That's where duct tape comes in.   🤣


More safe materials over the cardboard enclosure, probably the DV should rest till the summer ends  😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> And just remember: if a hammer won't fix it, duct tape probably will.   🤣


Or a combination of both 😜


----------



## JKDJedi

lol .I'm seriously considering a Decware right now. The waiting list is nuts ..


----------



## Slade01 (Jul 13, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> lol .I'm seriously considering a Decware right now. The waiting list is nuts ..



How long is the wait? 6 months? or more like a year?

Forget the Decware.  Get a Schiit Folkvangr.   You could grill a steak on that thing and listen to sweet music...


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> How long is the wait? 6 months? or more like a year?
> 
> Forget the Decware.  Get a Schiit Folkvangr.   You could grill a steak on that thing and listen to sweet music...


My Folkvangr just delivered yesterday.  Unfortunately I won’t be home until the weekend, so it will have to wait patiently for me.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> My Folkvangr just delivered yesterday.  Unfortunately I won’t be home until the weekend, so it will have to wait patiently for me.



You could have sent it to @Paladin79 while you are away.  That recessed area on top of the chassis is like a big tube playground for Finnegan.


----------



## Paladin79

I would have eventually sent the amp on to Bill.🤪

I just sent him this upgrade and of course Finnegan helped with the packing.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I would have eventually sent the amp on to Bill.🤪
> 
> I just sent him this upgrade and of course Finnegan helped with the packing.


Tom - That is a drop-dead gorgeous amp.  Beautiful and Elegant design!   A work of art indeed!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Tom - That is a drop-dead gorgeous amp.  Beautiful and Elegant design!   A work of art indeed!


Thanks, I also made this one just to mess with Bill.  

It has a sensitivity range that goes from John Denver to Marilyn Manson.🤪


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks, I also made this one just to mess with Bill.
> 
> It has a sensitivity range that goes from John Denver to Marilyn Manson.🤪


Holy Hell, LMAO!   that is even moar awesome!  The antenna was a nice touch on the back too!  The sensitivity range is the best feature on that thing!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 13, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Holy Hell, LMAO!   that is even moar awesome!  The antenna was a nice touch on the back too!  The sensitivity range is the best feature on that thing!


Bill picked up on the fact there are five red rca inputs on the back and three white. That is a wi-fi antenna of course.   

Now on Bill's real amp I hand turned a wooden cylinder on my wood lathe, then quartered it to get the legs. That sounds easy until you actually try it lol, it took me three attempts and I knew in theory just how much to deduct for the saw kerfs.

I also did all cuts in 1/8 inch copper plate and manually added the brushed copper finish. A lot of work went into that cabinet.


----------



## Slade01 (Jul 13, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill picked up on the fact there are five red rca inputs on the back and three white. That is a wi-fi antenna of course.
> 
> Now on Bill's real amp I hand turned a wooden cylinder on my wood lathe, then quartered it to get the legs. That sounds easy until you actually try it lol, it took me three attempts and I knew in theory just how much to deduct for the saw kerfs.
> 
> I also did all cuts in 1/8 inch copper plate and manually added the brushed copper finish. A lot of work went into that cabinet.


Alot of work - it surely shows.  The brushed copper is really wonderful.  Yeah, I give you alot of props - woodworking can be challenging...sometimes looks easy but isn't. It's as you described with doing the cylinder in quarters.   That sort of reminds me of when I was learning to cut crown molding pieces.  "Oh the corner joins shouldn't be that hard right? They seem to be simple 45 degree miter cuts.  Then several feet of wasted wood later, and I had a good fire going that evening...."

Bill has a good eye.  I didn't even notice the input mismatch.  I was just marveling at the conjuring symbol to call upon heavy metal demons into the amp.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 13, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Alot of work - it surely shows.  The brushed copper is really wonderful.  Yeah, I give you alot of props - woodworking can be challenging...sometimes looks easy but not as you said - doing the cylinder in quarters.   That sort of reminds me of when I was learning to cut crown molding pieces.  "Oh the corner joins shouldn't be that hard right? They seem to be simple 45 degree miter cuts.  Then several feet of wasted wood later, and I had a good fire going that evening...."
> 
> Bill has a good eye.  I didn't even notice the input mismatch.  I was just marveling at the conjuring symbol to call upon heavy metal demons into the amp.


I am now working on the angles to make horn shaped mini radial speakers. They can be challenging and I am going to be making some sample pairs once I figure everything out.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That's where duct tape comes in.   🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> How long is the wait? 6 months? or more like a year?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Slade01 said:


> How long is the wait? 6 months? or more like a year?
> 
> Forget the Decware.  Get a Schiit Folkvangr.   You could grill a steak on that thing and listen to sweet music...


I'll soon find out, I was looking into their headphone amps and kept getting pulled to their SE84UFO2 and with two very popular YouTube reviews on it really got me interested. Hopefully by holidays.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 13, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> I'll soon find out, I was looking into their headphone amps and kept getting pulled to their SE84UFO2 and with two very popular YouTube reviews on it really got me interested. Hopefully by holidays.


It is my variation on the DecWare mini radial speakers that I will be building. They offer parts and design info so I consider it DIY and I am not infringing on their design.

As far as their amps, I love the woodwork and they have taken a page from Bottlehead and have everything on one plate so cabinet building is easy. I do not do easy lol. Their mini speakers go from about $400 to $1,000 and do sound surprisingly good for something that size.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I'll soon find out, I was looking into their headphone amps and kept getting pulled to their SE84UFO2 and with two very popular YouTube reviews on it really got me interested. Hopefully by holidays.



That's like going into a best buy to buy a 32" tv, and then you come out with an 84" one.  Lol.    Though the SE84UFO2 is about the same price as their CSP3 headphone amp. But yeah taking it 2-channel/speaker territory is another rabbit hole!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> That's like going into a best buy to buy a 32" tv, and then you come out with an 84" one.  Lol.    Though the SE84UFO2 is about the same price as their CSP3 headphone amp. But yeah taking it 2-channel/speaker territory is another rabbit hole!


lol... correcto mundo... another rabbit hole indeed. I think this one will hold me over for a bit, got it for my bookshelf speakers. My Darkvoice is hanging on by a thread still, so we'll see. Don't think I'd replace it with another one but for what it is and the mods done to it, not a bad deal considering the price of admission.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> lol... correcto mundo... another rabbit hole indeed. I think this one will hold me over for a bit, got it for my bookshelf speakers. My Darkvoice is hanging on by a thread still, so we'll see. Don't think I'd replace it with another one but for what it is and the mods done to it, not a bad deal considering the price of admission.



Yeah I was doing soul searching lately, as for me the BHC/speedball, as impressive as it was, wasn't for me, and not that I'd go back to the DV either, but if I had to go back, the xDuoo TA-26 was the strongest contender seeing that it is still around 300 new, ton more power, and has quality parts (silmic caps, nichicon, etc.) and commonly billed as the DV 2.0, or everything the DV did, it can do better and adds more clarity and control to the SQ, or simply finding a base Crack for 300-ish.  

Absolutely right, the DV definitely was one of the best for an affordable entry point, and its still hard to beat with the HD650/6XX and the right tubes.

So I guess the Willsenton R8 dreams are over, huh?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yeah I was doing soul searching lately, as for me the BHC/speedball, as impressive as it was, wasn't for me, and not that I'd go back to the DV either, but if I had to go back, the xDuoo TA-26 was the strongest contender seeing that it is still around 300 new, ton more power, and has quality parts (silmic caps, nichicon, etc.) and commonly billed as the DV 2.0, or everything the DV did, it can do better and adds more clarity and control to the SQ, or simply finding a base Crack for 300-ish.
> 
> Absolutely right, the DV definitely was one of the best for an affordable entry point, and its still hard to beat with the HD650/6XX and the right tubes.
> 
> So I guess the Willsenton R8 dreams are over, huh?


So much gear...so little time...😂 It's never over till the fat lady sings! I'm heading out to Big Bear for the weekend today, yeah it's hot up there but 20 degrees cooler than where I'm at now, catch up to you all later.


----------



## therremans




----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> My Folkvangr just delivered yesterday.  Unfortunately I won’t be home until the weekend, so it will have to wait patiently for me.


Lucky you 👍👍It looks like an outstanding performer with a tube forest 🤩🤩
Strange though, no balanced input 😨


----------



## HTSkywalker

Slade01 said:


> You could have sent it to @Paladin79 while you are away.  That recessed area on top of the chassis is like a big tube playground for Finnegan.


NO DON'T, he will probably remove the metal chassis and substitute it with a wooden one 🤣🤣 a very unsafe combination with all those tubes 😨😨


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> So much gear...so little time...😂 It's never over till the fat lady sings! I'm heading out to Big Bear for the weekend today, yeah it's hot up there but 20 degrees cooler than where I'm at now, catch up to you all later.


Enjoy 👍👍😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I would have eventually sent the amp on to Bill.🤪
> 
> I just sent him this upgrade and of course Finnegan helped with the packing.


More side oriented amps, the ultimate @bcowen unique signature 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks, I also made this one just to mess with Bill.
> 
> It has a sensitivity range that goes from John Denver to Marilyn Manson.🤪


Well you even went the extra mile using carboard too, @bcowen definitely hold a special place in your heart 😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Bill picked up on the fact there are five red rca inputs on the back and three white. That is a wi-fi antenna of course.
> 
> Now on Bill's real amp I hand turned a wooden cylinder on my wood lathe, then quartered it to get the legs. That sounds easy until you actually try it lol, it took me three attempts and I knew in theory just how much to deduct for the saw kerfs.
> 
> I also did all cuts in 1/8 inch copper plate and manually added the brushed copper finish. A lot of work went into that cabinet.


A piece of art indeed 👍


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well you even went the extra mile using carboard too, @bcowen definitely hold a special place in your heart 😃


I set up a PM with ten people who made suggestions and sent some parts for the cardboard amp, I also walked them through the process when I upgraded the cabinet on Bill's Incubus amp. They are now seeing my progress on tiny speakers. The site limits me to ten people or there would have been more in the background enjoying the cardboard amp build.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> NO DON'T, he will probably remove the metal chassis and substitute it with a wooden cardboard one 🤣🤣 a very unsafe combination with all those tubes 😨😨


FTFY.   🤣


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Tom - That is a drop-dead gorgeous amp.  Beautiful and Elegant design!   A work of art indeed!


Yes, it truly is a work of art.  The photos don't really do it justice.  A stunning piece of craftsmanship.  Can you believe he sent it to _*me*_? 🤣 

Back at home sporting a 5998 and a '56 Melz:


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>


Do I spy a new piece of Schiit?


----------



## JKDJedi

What's in your Darkvoice..?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> What's in your Darkvoice..?


you still got that tung sol mouse ears cracked based?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 23, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> you still got that tung sol mouse ears cracked based?


Sure do, weird phenomenon with those mouse ears. I almost picked that one over the brown base 5692 (in a blind test). 🙂


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Sure do, weird phenomenon with those mouse ears. I almost picked that one over the brown base 5692 (in a blind test). 🙂


totally.  they are still that good!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Sure do, weird phenomenon with those mouse ears. *I almost picked that one over the brown base 5692 (in a blind deaf test).* 🙂


FTFY.    🤣  🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> you still got that tung sol *mouse ears cracked based*?


Worst idea for Disneyland ever


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> Worst idea for Disneyland ever


well that depends on the point of view.  some people see the glass half empty, and others....lol.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> well that depends on the point of view.  some people see the glass half empty, and others....lol.


LOL!  It's well known that Mickey Mouse was the first publicly outed crack head.  🤣


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


>


How are you enjoying the Asgard btw?   And are you running the DV as a pre-amp to it?


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> How are you enjoying the Asgard btw?   And are you running the DV as a pre-amp to it?


I like it a lot. Replacing the fuse also opened it up. No my DV no longer has the pre-amp output.


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> I like it a lot. Replacing the fuse also opened it up. No, my DV no longer has the preamp any output.


It could have been ⬆️…😧


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I like it a lot. Replacing the fuse also opened it up. No my DV no longer has the pre-amp output.



What fuse is your preferred flavor these days?    I'm hearing life altering SQ changes with the SR purple fuse on another thread.  A bit pricey, but no more than top tier tubes these days...


----------



## therremans (Aug 1, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> What fuse is your preferred flavor these days?    I'm hearing life altering SQ changes with the SR purple fuse on another thread.  A bit pricey, but no more than top tier tubes these days...


Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme 3. Affordable enough to replace all fuses in equipment. https://www.analogueseduction.net/fuses/hi-fi-tuning-supreme-fuses-5-x-20mm-f.html


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme 3. Affordable enough to replace all fuses in equipment. https://www.analogueseduction.net/fuses/hi-fi-tuning-supreme-fuses-5-x-20mm-f.html


The temptation is strong here... to fuse or not to fuse ..


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The temptation is strong here... to fuse or not to fuse ..


I would go for it. Even if you go with a entry level line.

Darkvoice 3A Fast blow
Asgard 1A Slow blow
Bifrost 1A Fast blow


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The temptation is strong here... to fuse or not to fuse ..


I had the same waffling issue when I was deciding whether to get married.  Chances are the fuse will work out better.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I had the same waffling issue when I was deciding whether to get married.  Chances are the fuse will work out better.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I had the same waffling issue when I was deciding whether to get married.  Chances are the fuse will work out better.


I am not so sure.   A fuse is certainly one dimensional - it can either do a fast blow or slow blow.  A wife could do more.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I would go for it. Even if you go with a entry level line.
> 
> Darkvoice 3A Fast blow
> Asgard 1A Slow blow
> Bifrost 1A Fast blow


I Fused!!! Well, that's one part I'll be keeping if and when the Dark one retires .. thanks for the heads-up my friend!


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme 3. Affordable enough to replace all fuses in equipment. https://www.analogueseduction.net/fuses/hi-fi-tuning-supreme-fuses-5-x-20mm-f.html


That is not a bad price at all.   Certainly, a low risk high reward kind of thing.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I am not so sure.   A fuse is certainly one dimensional - it can either do a fast blow or slow blow.  A wife could do more.


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> The temptation is strong here... to fuse or not to fuse ..


It’s easy to get ‘con-fused’…😏🤑…😳💸…


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> I Fused!!! Well, that's one part I'll be keeping if and when the Dark one retires .. thanks for the heads-up my friend!


Just remember: the fuse is supposed to “blow” _before_ the DarkVoice. Is _this_ what you _really_ want to happen 😈🤪?


----------



## Mr Trev

Slade01 said:


> I am not so sure.   A fuse is certainly one dimensional - it can either do a fast blow or slow blow.  A wife could do more.


no comment


----------



## therremans (Aug 2, 2022)

I purchased a Bifrost 2 DAC sometime in late 2020 or so. The RCA outputs are faulty and I noticed it when the unit was new with the L channel, R channel didn’t take long to have the same issue. Using other interconnects that I own doesn’t solve the problem but often I find the situation to be worse off.

When connected to the Asgard, it’s even worse since the cable has to bend back around from the DAC to Amp. It sometimes takes me 5 minutes to get a solid signal and even then it may cut out during listening.

I submitted this video to them in hopes to get it fixed under warranty.

Not what you’d expect for a $829 unit... (price has increased) 🤔 anyone else experience this kind of problem with Schiit?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1otpvsxPNbsACqeDxHrO4-uaXSxRmGZTX/view?usp=drivesdk


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I purchased a Bifrost 2 DAC sometime in late 2020 or so. The RCA outputs are faulty and I noticed it when the unit was new with the L channel, R channel didn’t take long to have the same issue. Using other interconnects that I own doesn’t solve the problem but often I find the situation to be worse off.
> 
> When connected to the Asgard, it’s even worse since the cable has to bend back around from the DAC to Amp. It sometimes takes me 5 minutes to get a solid signal and even then it may cut out during listening.
> 
> ...



That's kind of crazy.  Well - if it is still under warranty, they should just fix it.  Hopefully their service is still pretty good.  I know their customer service was fairly responsive pre-covid, but who knows these days where everyone is always swamped.   Knock on wood, i've had no issues with any Schiit gear.

Maybe time to consider an upgrade to the 2/64 card?  Maybe might as well since its already going to be there....


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I had the same waffling issue when I was deciding whether to get married.  Chances are the fuse will work out better.


While the comparison does hold still the effect is out of proportions by comparison 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Just remember: the fuse is supposed to “blow” _before_ the DarkVoice. Is _this_ what you _really_ want to happen 😈🤪?


No need to blow the DV as no other amp can match its warmth especially helpful during the winter time 😆😆


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> No need to blow the DV as no other amp can match its warmth especially helpful during the winter time 😆😆


Perhaps an unfair comparison: Cary 211s 🥵will make the DV seem like an ice cube 🥶…


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> That's kind of crazy.  Well - if it is still under warranty, they should just fix it.  Hopefully their service is still pretty good.  I know their customer service was fairly responsive pre-covid, but who knows these days where everyone is always swamped.   Knock on wood, i've had no issues with any Schiit gear.
> 
> Maybe time to consider an upgrade to the 2/64 card?  Maybe might as well since its already going to be there....


I’ve submitted a repair request and I am waiting to hear back. I didn’t know a new version of the Bifrost 2 was even out! 🤦‍♂️ 

You’re right, installing one of those 2/64 upgrade cards would fix the issue and upgrade it at the same time.. 🤔 I will reply to them about this.. However this would  be a simple task that I would like to do myself.. but maybe they will be super cool and offer me a reduced price? Haha I highly doubt it.. but it would get them out of a warranty job and I’ll send them my old card back for repair/salvage.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I had the same waffling issue when I was deciding whether to get married.  Chances are the fuse will work out better.


…at the time, you expected 4.0A…but you got 1.0A…😵‍💫…🤣🤣🤣.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I’ve submitted a repair request and I am waiting to hear back. I didn’t know a new version of the Bifrost 2 was even out! 🤦‍♂️
> 
> You’re right, installing one of those 2/64 upgrade cards would fix the issue and upgrade it at the same time.. 🤔 I will reply to them about this.. However this would  be a simple task that I would like to do myself.. but maybe they will be super cool and offer me a reduced price? Haha I highly doubt it.. but it would get them out of a warranty job and I’ll send them my old card back for repair/salvage.



I doubt they would do it at a reduced price, but wishful thinking.   Jason would probably say, you're already getting a deal by not having to buy an entirely new DAC.  Lol.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I purchased a Bifrost 2 DAC sometime in late 2020 or so. The RCA outputs are faulty and I noticed it when the unit was new with the L channel, R channel didn’t take long to have the same issue. Using other interconnects that I own doesn’t solve the problem but often I find the situation to be worse off.
> 
> When connected to the Asgard, it’s even worse since the cable has to bend back around from the DAC to Amp. It sometimes takes me 5 minutes to get a solid signal and even then it may cut out during listening.
> 
> ...


 I would suspect the center pin contacts inside the RCA jacks are bent out a little causing them to lose contact with the center pin of the interconnect and cause the intermittent contact.  I’m not at home to look at my BF2 to see if there is easy access to the inside of the jack, but it may be worth taking off the main cover and see if you can get a small screwdriver (jewelers type) inside the jack to bend the contact back towards the center a little.  If there’s no access possible, then the upgrade card might be the way to go…..maybe.  I haven’t heard it yet, and some reports on Schiit’s thread suggest it is brighter sounding than the current card.  That doesn’t give me warm fuzzies personally, but may be to others liking.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> I would suspect the center pin contacts inside the RCA jacks are bent out a little causing them to lose contact with the center pin of the interconnect and cause the intermittent contact.  I’m not at home to look at my BF2 to see if there is easy access to the inside of the jack, but it may be worth taking off the main cover and see if you can get a small screwdriver (jewelers type) inside the jack to bend the contact back towards the center a little.  If there’s no access possible, then the upgrade card might be the way to go…..maybe.  I haven’t heard it yet, and some reports on Schiit’s thread suggest it is brighter sounding than the current card.  That doesn’t give me warm fuzzies personally, but may be to others liking.


Yes correct, the L channel went out in the first month or so and this is was my fix back then, I bent the pin back with a small flathead and it worked again. Did this happen to you? However it was never perfect afterwards and I could then see how the center pin on the left looked much off/different compared to the right channel’s pin.

But..that’s a crap design and I’m not going to keep doing that, so it’s now on them to fix it.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Yes correct, the L channel went out in the first month or so and this is was my fix back then, I bent the pin back with a small flathead and it worked again. Did this happen to you? However it was never perfect afterwards and I could then see how the center pin on the left looked much off/different compared to the right channel’s pin.
> 
> But..that’s a crap design and I’m not going to keep doing that, so it’s now on them to fix it.


Gotcha.  I haven’t had any problems with mine so far.  But as much as I like Schitt stuff, the RCA jacks they use pretty much suck.


----------



## therremans (Aug 4, 2022)

I am the type of guy to spend that money on an upgrade (mort of us are). But it’s tough since I feel like that DAC was already really expensive/overpriced (especially considering the marginal/subjective improvement in SQ when upgrading DACs) and I’ve had some issues with it and none with my tiny Modi 3+. So to spend $300 more seems insane. But I bet I eventually do it. 😂

But first, I want to hear what they respond with about the repair and/or if they offer the upgrade to me at whatever price.

I do like that they offer upgradable cards for their units like this and to retain or extend your factory warranty.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I am the type of guy to spend that money on an upgrade (mort of us are). But it’s tough since I feel like that DAC was already really expensive/overpriced (especially considering the marginal/subjective improvement in SQ when upgrading DACs) and I’ve had some issues with it and none with my tiny Modi 3+. So to spend $300 more seems insane. But I bet I eventually do it. 😂
> 
> But first, I want to hear what they respond with about the repair and/or if they offer the upgrade to me at whatever price.
> 
> I do like that they offer upgradable cards for their units like this and to retain or extend your factory warranty.


I own (or have owned) around 10 Schiit components, and have never had a problem except with the Lyr 3 that developed a hum in both channels after around 2 years of use.  Sent it back and they repaired it and returned it very quickly.  So although it was unfortunate that it had a problem at all, I was impressed with their fast response and quick turnaround.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I haven’t heard it yet, and some reports on Schiit’s thread suggest it is brighter sounding than the current card.  That doesn’t give me warm fuzzies personally, but may be to others liking.



But is that brighter sounding based on the default digital filter?  I would hope its NOS mode would not sound bright.   For myself personally, I would be getting that upgrade for that sole function, but I've always been a fan of non oversampling/r2r dacs.


----------



## jonathan c

By this time, GEs and ECGs will be sought-after, kidney-denominated ‘holy grails’ 😳🙄…


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> By this time, GEs and ECGs will be sought-after, kidney-denominated ‘holy grails’ 😳🙄…


😂😂😂


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂



How's the fuse treatment going on your DV?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> How's the fuse treatment going on your DV?


Somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship


If you ordered from that UK company, they didn’t give me any tracking. But it eventually arrived.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship


I'd like to be in the Atlantic Ocean on a cruise ship right about now....


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> If you ordered from that UK company, they didn’t give me any tracking. But it eventually arrived.


I'm good, I have some Durban Poison coming in from Greece that I'm more excited about. 🙂


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I'd like to be in the Atlantic Ocean on a cruise ship right about now....


….novovirus ready?….


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> How's the fuse treatment going on your DV?


🧨...oops, wrong fuse...(I wanted 60-nitro)…


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I'm good, I have some Durban Poison coming in from Greece that I'm more excited about. 🙂


Its such a negative kind of name for such a high quality type of variety!  They clearly need to work on their marketing skills.  Lol.


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> ….novovirus ready?….


I'd risk it for some Caribbean action for sure.


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> 🧨...oops, wrong fuse...(I wanted 60-nitro)…


save your Nitro for the GE and Blue Print Phillips ECG tubes!


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> 🧨...oops, wrong fuse...(I wanted 60-nitro)…


I think that you want a fuze.


----------



## jonathan c

Either is fine


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> save your Nitro for the GE and Blue Print Phillips ECG tubes!


….put them all in the DV…emulate Captain Ahab: “Thar she blows”…😏😈


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Its such a negative kind of name for such a high quality type of variety!  They clearly need to work on their marketing skills.  Lol.


They should talk to Schiit.   🤣  🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> They should talk to Schiit.   🤣  🤣


🤣🤣🤣🤔🤔🤔


----------



## JKDJedi

The Eagle Has Landed.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> The Eagle Has Landed.


Nice, let it break in for awhile but you should hear an immediate difference.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Nice, let it break in for awhile but you should hear an immediate difference.


brewing another pot of coffee just for this .... 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> brewing another pot of coffee just for this .... 😁


Add a shot of Jack and I can guarantee you it will sound better.   🤣


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Add a shot of Jack and I can guarantee you it will sound better.   🤣


Bushmills or Jamesons.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Bushmills or Jamesons.


Yes.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> brewing another pot of coffee just for this .... 😁



I think we're past several pots of coffee now.   Or are we on to a different type of pot?   Coffee x Durban Poison FTW.

Any verdicts?   Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I think we're past several pots of coffee now.   Or are we on to a different type of pot?   Coffee x Durban Poison FTW.
> 
> Any verdicts?   Inquiring minds want to know.





Slade01 said:


> I think we're past several pots of coffee now.   Or are we on to a different type of pot?   Coffee x Durban Poison FTW.
> 
> Any verdicts?   Inquiring minds want to know.


I want to say a 5-10 percent improvement was my initial thought. I didn't start crying or come in my pants, but it got me into my headphones and added to the experience. Placebo, who knows .. I want to but, never in my wildest imaginations would I have thought I'd be A and B ing fuses on the Darkvoice.... 😂 Not there yet.

 Maybe.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I want to say a 5-10 percent improvement was my initial thought. I didn't start crying or come in my pants, but it got me into my headphones and added to the experience. Placebo, who knows .. I want to but, never in my wildest imaginations would I have thought I'd be A and B ing fuses on the Darkvoice.... 😂 Not there yet.
> 
> Maybe.


My experience was an exact 6.894% improvement, but it's hard to quantify precisely.   🤣


----------



## therremans

I’m not blowing smoke but it was quite noticeable on my DV, but I did notice the biggest “veil lifted” thing with the Schiit Asgard. So, maybe it has to do with my particular DV amp and the mods? well at least you spent around $40 and not $200.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I’m not blowing smoke but it was quite noticeable on my DV, but I did notice the biggest “veil lifted” thing with the Schiit Asgard. So, maybe it has to do with my particular DV amp and the mods? well at least you spent around $40 and not $200.


Yes, thanks for the link to that. It was an easy switch to do. The fuse does scream quality.


----------



## JKDJedi

My goodness.... cables....Do make the difference. Thanks @therremans , excellent job on the headphone cables.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> My goodness.... cables....Do make the difference. Thanks @therremans , excellent job on the headphone cables.


Cool looking sleeve design too!


----------



## therremans (Aug 27, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> My goodness.... cables....Do make the difference. Thanks @therremans , excellent job on the headphone cables.


Glad I could make it better for you. Much more flexible, yeah?


Slade01 said:


> Cool looking sleeve design too!


I used sleeving from paracord, it’s soft and doesn’t carry vibrations. The outer insulation layer was removed from the star-quad cable to reduce weight and give it a lot more flexibility.


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> I used sleeving from paracord, it’s soft and doesn’t carry vibrations. The outer insulation layer was removed from the star-quad cable to reduce weight and give it a lot more flexibility.



Very cool.  Are you using Mogami 2534 or Canare? Yeah I had a cable done in this manner too.  I couldn't believe how light and flexible it became.  Awesome!


----------



## therremans (Aug 28, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> Very cool.  Are you using Mogami 2534 or Canare? Yeah I had a cable done in this manner too.  I couldn't believe how light and flexible it became.  Awesome!


I’ve used both of those Japanese brands. Both seemed high quality. His original cable had Canare.

Now I need to rework my personal HD6XX cable like his. I also want to try something different for my DT1990s using copper and silver plated braided cable.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I’ve used both of those Japanese brands. Both seemed high quality. His original cable had Canare.
> 
> Now I need to rework my personal HD6XX cable like his. I also want to try something different for my DT1990s using copper and silver plated braided cable.



24 gauge Neotech stranded copper w/PTFE insulation.  A guy here that some of you may have heard of (@Paladin79 ) was kind enough to get the braiding done for me. 





It was originally finished for the Aeon 2's, but after selling them I re-terminated for the HD-6XX's.  Pretty serious improvement over the stock cable IMO.


----------



## Slade01

An interesting premise / test would be to use a pure silver HP cable with the darkvoice to see if it would effectively assist in taming the bloomy-ness of the bass...giving it more control.  Has anyone tried this?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> An interesting premise / test would be to use a pure silver HP cable with the darkvoice to see if it would effectively assist in taming the bloomy-ness of the bass...giving it more control.  Has anyone tried this?


I haven't.  I'm allergic to silver.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> An interesting premise / test would be to use a pure silver HP cable with the darkvoice to see if it would effectively assist in taming the bloomy-ness of the bass...giving it more control.  Has anyone tried this?


Or the next (absurd) step: silver wiring within the DV itself? The wire$ > DV$….😳🤪.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I haven't.  I'm allergic to silver.


You just take high-denom greenbacks…🙂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 24 gauge Neotech stranded copper w/PTFE insulation.  A guy here that some of you may have heard of (@Paladin79 ) was kind enough to get the braiding done for me.
> 
> 
> 
> It was originally finished for the Aeon 2's, but after selling them I re-terminated for the HD-6XX's.  Pretty serious improvement over the stock cable IMO.


I am always glad to help anyone who can help increase my tube choices in one of these.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> An interesting premise / test would be to use a pure silver HP cable with the darkvoice to see if it would effectively assist in taming the bloomy-ness of the bass...giving it more control.  Has anyone tried this?


IMHO you are better off trying to fix that with tubes or modification. Silver is a slightly better conductor than copper and while it is possible to hear a slight difference in some applications, (headphone cables are a good example), the most a wire can do is give you a faithful reproduction of the original signal. The bloominess might be be more pronounced. I have a stock DV somewhere and plenty of pure silver wire but I see it as a lot of effort for little reward. Besides I need to make an amp that is much prettier than one I gave Mr. Cowen so currently I am spending my time on that, plus another amp build, and mini radial speakers.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Or the next (absurd) step: silver wiring within the DV itself? The wire$ > DV$….😳🤪.


I used some silver wire on the inside of @bcowen's amp but I am hard pressed to tell much difference between that and high quality silver plated copper that I generally use.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I used some silver wire on the inside of @bcowen's amp but I am hard pressed to tell much difference between that and high quality silver plated copper that I generally use.


That was Neotech 99% silver, 1% gold wire.  Adding the gold to the silver makes it sound like good copper wire.     

Seriously, I’d like to try an HP cable made from that wire at some point.  Silly expensive though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That was Neotech 99% silver, 1% gold wire.  Adding the gold to the silver makes it sound like good copper wire.
> 
> Seriously, I’d like to try an HP cable made from that wire at some point.  Silly expensive though.


Dang I should have switched wire on you during the refurb!

I only see the woman who braided the other cable about once every month or two now but since I taught her to braid cables I suppose I could help. If you seriously ever want it done, buy two colors of wire, working with all the same color is a nightmare waiting to be dreamed.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am always glad to help anyone who can help increase my tube choices in one of these.


Folkvangr’s idol ? 🙏 🧎…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Folkvangr’s idol ? 🙏 🧎…


This is also a decent headphone amp. It has everything except for a phono stage but I am borrowing one from Bill made by Cary.


----------



## jonathan c

As an aside, the EVO 400 reminds me in appearance - but not in tube armament - of an Elekit TU-8200R that I owned for a short while. The amp (speaker w/ headphone jack) itself was microphonic…with the volume knob fully counterclockwise, I could hear the music coming off the amp body 😳.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> As an aside, the EVO 400 reminds me in appearance - but not in tube armament - of an Elekit TU-8200R that I owned for a short while. The amp (speaker w/ headphone jack) itself was microphonic…with the volume knob fully counterclockwise, I could hear the music coming off the amp body 😳.


Did you build it yourself? The PrimaLuna is not an uncommon layout, having a cage that goes over the top does not hurt, more than likely I will get some kind of dust cover and the frame will help support it.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Did you build it yourself? The PrimaLuna is not an uncommon layout, having a cage that goes over the top does not hurt, more than likely I will get some kind of dust cover and the frame will help support it.


I did not 😒…


----------



## musicinmymind

I am using HD800 with Hugo 2 -> Darkvoice with Melz tubes.
very little difference between direct Hugo2 and Darkvoice, on most tracks I prefer Hugo then Darkvoice.

nearing 50, may be I am already old now


----------



## jonathan c

musicinmymind said:


> I am using HD800 with Hugo 2 -> Darkvoice with Melz tubes.
> very little difference between direct Hugo2 and Darkvoice, on most tracks I prefer Hugo then Darkvoice.
> 
> nearing 50, may be I am already old now


If you are younger than your Melz, don’t worry about it 😅.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> I did not 😒…


I suspect it would have worked better if you had lol.

If I had known you then I would have helped.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If you are younger than your Melz, don’t worry about it 😅.


I could not get a stock DV to work with any Russian tubes without an extreme amount of noise. Melz, Fotons, it did not matter lol. I forget if I tried Svetlana power tubes but I suspect they were all right.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> I could not get a stock DV to work with any Russian tubes without an extreme amount of noise. Melz, Fotons, it did not matter lol. I forget if I tried Svetlana power tubes but I suspect they were all right.



I am using 230V DV and with Melz 1958 no noise at all. Not sure how long Melz will last, but happy with it and stopped tube hunting.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 29, 2022)

musicinmymind said:


> I am using 230V DV and with Melz 1958 no noise at all. Not sure how long Melz will last, but happy with it and stopped tube hunting.


Yep, I have heard of that with the 230 V version, apparently there were more issues with the 117 V US versions according to those I talked to about the amp. Many Americans were doing mods to correct the hum. I started to do mods but I have more projects than I know what to do with lol.  I mainly just bought one so I could get the measurements so I could build an amp extension for a friend.

I own plenty of headphone amps including those I designed myself so there is not much need for one more.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Dang I should have switched wire on you during the refurb!
> 
> I only see the woman who braided the other cable about once every month or two now but since I taught her to braid cables I suppose I could help. If you seriously ever want it done, buy two colors of wire, *working* *with* *all* *the* *same* *color* *is* *a* *nightmare* *waiting* *to* *be* *dreamed.  *


Oh good grief.  They make these things called DVM’s that, among other things, allow you to check for continuity.  I can lend you one of mine I suppose, but only because I like you.  Mostly.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 29, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Oh good grief.  They make these things called DVM’s that, among other things, allow you to check for continuity.  I can lend you one of mine I suppose, but only because I like you.  Mostly.


Huh, DVM is doctor of veterinary medicine, that has little to do with the pattern used in braiding cables. Seriously though it is not like you randomly braid the cables together and measure them after the fact. My advice to you is to do an eight wire braid using all the same colors as you keep track of every single conductor and call me in the morning. I could send you to school but I would be getting the same reaction if I sent you to study with a school of fish.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Huh, DVM is doctor of veterinary medicine, that has little to do with the pattern used in braiding cables. Seriously though it is not like you randomly braid the cables together and measure them after the fact. My advice to you is to do an eight wire braid using all the same colors as you keep track of every single conductor and call me in the morning. I could send you to school but I would be getting the same reaction if I sent you to study with a school of fish.


I got a basket weaving merit badge in Boy Scouts.  Does that count?

My eight wire braid would look something like this.  So maybe it doesn't count.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I could send you to school but I would be getting the same reaction if I sent you to study with a school of fish.


For the sake of clarity, McGill University is ineligible…🐟 =/= 👨‍🎓…


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 29, 2022)

Yikes!!!! Er I mean as long as you are happy with what you are doing, why confuse it with words like reality and actuality. You just go right on making yourself happy and the rest of us will just smile and nod as we pretend not to know you.   

That was a response to Mr. Cowen, Jonathan makes perfect sense.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 31, 2022)

The _direct_ lineage from design….


 to prototype….


----------



## bcowen

Pretty nice price on these if anyone is interested.  I know nothing about the seller, just spotted this while looking for some other tubes to hoard collect.   🤣 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4038528606...&brand=Tungsol&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Pretty nice price on these if anyone is interested.  I know nothing about the seller, just spotted this while looking for some other tubes to hoard collect.   🤣
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/403852860687?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160811114145&meid=b6ba137ddeee402fb170df170acdf3cb&pid=100667&rk=1&rkt=8&sd=403852860687&itm=403852860687&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2351460&brand=Tungsol&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042



That is a really nice price for those tubes, and for that that type.   Great find.


----------



## Slade01

That same seller has this listing as well.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/155103698916?hash=item241ce69fe4:g:PfwAAOSwfcti6y6g

Do you think there is an adapter for that for the DV?   

For real though, one of the best things about the DV was only needing the one tube...not pairs or quads!


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> …For real though, one of the best things about the DV was only needing the one tube...not pairs or quads!


Thank God! Could you imagine double or quadruple the hum…😵‍💫😖…?


----------



## JKDJedi

jonathan c said:


> Thank God! Could you imagine double or quadruple the hum…😵‍💫😖…?


Haven't heard hum in years ..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Haven't heard hum in years ..


Yeah, I know!  Ever since I found this site I can actually sing the words now.   🤣 

https://www.lyrics.com/


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I know!  Ever since I found this site I can actually sing the words now.   🤣
> 
> https://www.lyrics.com/


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> That same seller has this listing as well.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/155103698916?hash=item241ce69fe4:g:PfwAAOSwfcti6y6g
> 
> Do you think there is an adapter for that for the DV?


How about eight for the Schiit Folkvangr !!!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> How about eight for the Schiit Folkvangr !!!


You'd need a couple candelabra adapters, but I'm sure Deyan could accommodate.     🤣


----------



## Deyan

Slade01 said:


> That same seller has this listing as well.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/155103698916?hash=item241ce69fe4:g:PfwAAOSwfcti6y6g
> 
> Do you think there is an adapter for that for the DV?
> 
> For real though, one of the best things about the DV was only needing the one tube...not pairs or quads!


Seems like a fun project....


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> Seems like a fun project....


There you go @Slade01 .. take one for the team!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There you go @Slade01 .. take one for the team!


Oh hell yeah.  Second that!  I don't even care how it sounds, I just want to see @Deyan 's adapter for it.   🤣


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> There you go @Slade01 .. take one for the team!



Honestly, if I still had the DV, I'd do it in a heartbeat!   I jumped all over the dual A2293 tubes back then, the DV is a fun amp to experiment with.    You know, Deyan developed his power supply device though that would allow one to run different voltage tubes - that would certainly be an interesting play for the Darkvoice amp.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> Honestly, if I still had the DV, I'd do it in a heartbeat!   I jumped all over the dual A2293 tubes back then, the DV is a fun amp to experiment with***.  You know, Deyan developed his power supply device though that would allow one to run different voltage tubes - that would certainly be an interesting play for the Darkvoice amp.


*** DV (damn versatile)…can be used in amplification 📈or in detonation 💥…


----------



## JKDJedi

Sylvania 7a4


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Sylvania 7a4



Do you like these better than the Sylvania 6J5?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Do you like these better than the Sylvania 6J5?


I like them, but .. Sylvania 6J5 are couple notches above these.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I like them, but .. Sylvania 6J5 are couple notches above these.



Thanks - I never did get to try 7A4.  Closest was the 7AF7.   I'm trying not to get into a fever again for tube rolling.  LOL.   My wallet and I are on ok terms for the time being.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Thanks - I never did get to try 7A4.  Closest was the 7AF7.   I'm trying not to get into a fever again for tube rolling.  LOL.   My wallet and I are on ok terms for the time being.


lol, same here. I would love to sample the Sophia though.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I like them, but .. Sylvania 6J5 are couple notches above these.


If you can find some Hytron 7A4's, grab them.  My favorite 7A4 to date.  Note the ones I have are Hytron labeled only, not CBS/Hytron.  Assuming they are earlier versions that were made before CBS got involved with Hytron.  Of course, they could be Sylvanias for all I know (but they sound quite a bit better than the Sylvania labeled ones I have).


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> If you can find some Hytron 7A4's, grab them.  My favorite 7A4 to date.  Note the ones I have are Hytron labeled only, not CBS/Hytron.  Assuming they are earlier versions that were made before CBS got involved with Hytron.  Of course, they could be Sylvanias for all I know (but they sound quite a bit better than the Sylvania labeled ones I have).


Sophia and Hytron 7A4 was what I meant to be wanting to sample still ... 😁


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> If you can find some Hytron 7A4's, grab them.  My favorite 7A4 to date.  Note the ones I have are Hytron labeled only, not CBS/Hytron.  Assuming they are earlier versions that were made before CBS got involved with Hytron.  Of course, they could be Sylvanias for all I know (but they sound quite a bit better than the Sylvania labeled ones I have).


Trying to make a drinking game out of finding Hytron only made tubes would be a big let down...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Trying to make a drinking game out of finding Hytron only made tubes would be a big let down...


Still sober...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Still sober...


You misunderstood the rules:  you have to drink continuously until you find some.  Suggest beer rather than liquor.   🤣  🤣


----------



## musicinmymind

I got W33 at good price and selling Darkvoice.

Very rare and highly rated tubes by @Paladin79, Melz 1958 (solid plate) and 1961 are for sale. Please ping me


----------



## Slade01

@therremans i remember over the last year or two you have very briefly mentioned using sonarworks for eq. on some of your headphones.  my getting the hd800 recently has seriously having me put different eq software to its paces due to the fatigue it can cause.  i have to say that using sonarworks may have saved me from having to sell it.  what an amazing difference its tuning profile is!


----------



## therremans

Slade01 said:


> @therremans i remember over the last year or two you have very briefly mentioned using sonarworks for eq. on some of your headphones.  my getting the hd800 recently has seriously having me put different eq software to its paces due to the fatigue it can cause.  i have to say that using sonarworks may have saved me from having to sell it.  what an amazing difference its tuning profile is!


Nice, yeah I do like using Sonarworks. It’s even better for room speakers, as it uses a microphone to properly EQ the room.

I don’t have a physical/external EQ installed like the Lokius. I knew if I bought one.. I’d probably always be fiddling with it with each song. I chose to tune my DT1990s with new pads and additionally using the profiles offered with Sonarworks. The software also allows you to do slight -/+ adjustments on the low/high end, which shifts the curve in either direction. But no full band EQ is offered. You’d have to use APO Equalizer or something for that. But I just didn’t want all that so I removed APO. I believe Sonarworks overrides the windows audio service and can use WASAPI (default) or ASIO. It also auto defaults itself as the only audio device when enabled.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you can find some Hytron 7A4's, grab them.  My favorite 7A4 to date.  Note the ones I have are Hytron labeled only, not CBS/Hytron.  Assuming they are earlier versions that were made before CBS got involved with Hytron.  Of course, they could be Sylvanias for all I know (but they sound quite a bit better than the Sylvania labeled ones I have).


Worth a try if you say so 🙂


----------



## analogTubeSound

Hey First Real Post here... Glad to finally be on headfi! Hope to contribute going forward...

I have been tube rolling since i picked up a pair of ZMF Eikon's a few weeks ago. (Upgrading from HD650s... ya big leap...)

I have the pre-out disconnect mod + cap bias mod on my 336SE. Up until today my favorite combo was the brown base tungsol 6SN7WGTA with my Western Electric 421A.

I decided to pull out some old vintage tubes and adapters and go through some 6J5 sets (some of which sounded great BTW) and others... Then i got to this Emerson smoked 6F8G. I bought this tube so many years ago i dont really recall where it came from or why i bought it...

















But this combo has impressive detail and clarity that does not compare to the 6SN7s i have!

Has anyone else experienced this with the 6F8 family and this amp?

-tubeSound


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 11, 2022)

analogTubeSound said:


> Hey First Real Post here... Glad to finally be on headfi! Hope to contribute going forward...
> 
> I have been tube rolling since i picked up a pair of ZMF Eikon's a few weeks ago. (Upgrading from HD650s... ya big leap...)
> 
> ...


That there is an RCA...and yeah, they sound pretty good.


----------



## Slade01

analogTubeSound said:


> But this combo has impressive detail and clarity that does not compare to the 6SN7s i have!
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this with the 6F8 family and this amp?
> 
> -tubeSound



You would be extremely pressed to find 6SN7s that come close to what a 6F8G/6C8G can do in my opinion at least in the DV.  I'm sure the 6F8G/WE421A is a nice pairing.


----------



## iFi audio

analogTubeSound said:


> Hey First Real Post here... Glad to finally be on headfi! Hope to contribute going forward...



Hi there and enjoy your stay


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That there is an RCA...and yeah, they sound pretty good.


Agree.  And if you can find a TungSol with round plates, the doors to heaven swing wide open.  Unfortunately those are getting very scarce and prohibitively pricey.


----------



## SHIMACM

A GEC 6as7g with GEC L63 also opens the heavens for angels to whisper in your ear.

A valve combination worthy of a final game.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> A GEC 6as7g with GEC L63 also opens the heavens for angels to whisper in your ear.





bcowen said:


> Agree.  And if you can find a TungSol with round plates, the doors to heaven swing wide open.  Unfortunately those are getting very scarce and prohibitively pricey.



OK - so we got pairings that open the heavenly gates, and have angels whispering.   What will it take to bathe in the light and get drunk on divine wine at God's house party?


----------



## SHIMACM

Slade01 said:


> OK - so we got pairings that open the heavenly gates, and have angels whispering.   What will it take to bathe in the light and get drunk on divine wine at God's house party?



Hence we have numerous beliefs my friend. Choose the one you like best. LOL.


----------



## Slade01

SHIMACM said:


> Hence we have numerous beliefs my friend. Choose the one you like best. LOL.


I think the GEC 6AS7G is one of the rare tubes I have not had the pleasure of hearing.   You like that better with those GEC L63s over the 5998/421A?


----------



## SHIMACM (Nov 14, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> I think the GEC 6AS7G is one of the rare tubes I have not had the pleasure of hearing.   You like that better with those GEC L63s over the 5998/421A?



I didn't really like the combination of the Chatham/TS 5998 with the GEC L63.

I much prefer the TS 6f8g, Melz 1578 and even Foton with 5998.

Now with the GEC 6as7g the combination is perfect. Huge stage, lots of air, emotional connection with the music, no grains, bass and treble quite extended, perfect separation and very sweet vocals. A very soft and pleasant sound. It is difficult to evaluate negatively in any aspect. Perhaps the dynamics and holography is a little lower than a 5998/Foton, for example.



Anyway, I like both a 5998/Foton and the GEC 6as7g/GEC L63, each in its own way, the two combinations deliver top notch sound.


----------



## iFi audio

bcowen said:


> Unfortunately those are getting very scarce and prohibitively pricey.



Indeed and in time many affordable tubes may significantly go up as well. Of course unless one is into tubes from the current production, that's a different story


----------



## bcowen

iFi audio said:


> Indeed and in time many affordable tubes may significantly go up as well. Of course unless one is into tubes from the current production, that's a different story


Very true.  But some of the current production tubes actually sound pretty good.  KR's are nice as are some of the PSVanes, and some of the old name brands that were resurrected and currently made in Russia (or at least _were_ being made) are decent.  Not at NOS caliber IMO, but a far cry from the utter sludge that was being produced there (and in China) in the '80's through early '00's.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> OK - so we got pairings that open the heavenly gates, and have angels whispering.   What will it take to bathe in the light and get drunk on divine wine at God's house party?


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> OK - so we got pairings that open the heavenly gates, and have angels whispering.   What will it take to bathe in the light and get drunk on divine wine at God's house party?


The last time angels whispered in my ear it was the lyrics to a Marilyn Manson song.   Of course, the locks on the gates of heaven will surely be reinforced when my time draws near, so this is a YMMV kinda thing.   🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


>


ROFL!!!!  I haven't seen a bottle of that in probably 40 years.  I've never had a shot of kerosene, but I'll bet a '53 Foton it tastes better.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The last time angels whispered in my ear it was the lyrics to a Marilyn Manson song.   Of course, the locks on the gates of heaven^^ will surely be reinforced when my time draws near, so this is a YMMV kinda thing.   🤣


^^ no problem for anyone with a name like Ripper2860…..(ft/lbs)…..💪 🤣


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


>



that was definitely a more classy drink than mad dog.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> that was definitely a more classy drink than mad dog.


… only because MD came in a hip flask… 🤪😵


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> … only because MD came in a hip flask… 🤪😵


All we need is this to complete the history of the nastiest alcoholic beverages ever created.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 14, 2022)

For an undergraduate degree in Greek at Puke University, mix MD-20/20 with: Tavola Red (cheap red wine with a tablecloth label), RC Cola, and grain CH3CH2OH; stir vigourously in & serve from:


----------



## iFi audio

bcowen said:


> Very true.  But some of the current production tubes actually sound pretty good.  KR's are nice as are some of the PSVanes, and some of the old name brands that were resurrected and currently made in Russia (or at least _were_ being made) are decent.  Not at NOS caliber IMO, but a far cry from the utter sludge that was being produced there (and in China) in the '80's through early '00's.



Yes, it's great that we have KR, Emission Labs, Psvane, Linlai, Elrog, Takatsuki and more. There's a ton of good tubes from these manufacturers and I hope they'll continue doing what they do.


----------



## analogTubeSound

I have been tube-rolling all day and I pulled my WE421A out (of the amp) for the first time in probably months. Note: I ALWAYS grab my tubes by the base!...

However when I removed the WE421A (holding it from the base) i could feel the glass was loose and moving relative to the base. (it wiggles) Is this going to cause it to fail? Any precautions i should take? I really dont want to lose this tube as they are expensive! Ive never had a tube "loosen" like this so i am not even sure if it is a valid concern or not (I am not familiar with the mechanical construction here only electrical parameters)

Thanks.


----------



## bcowen

analogTubeSound said:


> I have been tube-rolling all day and I pulled my WE421A out (of the amp) for the first time in probably months. Note: I ALWAYS grab my tubes by the base!...
> 
> However when I removed the WE421A (holding it from the base) i could feel the glass was loose and moving relative to the base. (it wiggles) Is this going to cause it to fail? Any precautions i should take? I really dont want to lose this tube as they are expensive! Ive never had a tube "loosen" like this so i am not even sure if it is a valid concern or not (I am not familiar with the mechanical construction here only electrical parameters)
> 
> Thanks.


Having the base separate from the glass is not uncommon with NOS tubes.  Since you've been careful to handle it by the base only it's unlikely any damage has occurred, but it's best to re-glue it to prevent a future accident and/or stressing the element wires in the base.  I use Rhino Glue which is just a brand name for good old cyanoacrylate (Krazy Glue).  Some use clear nail polish, and I'm sure there are other adhesives that will work well too.  I carefully clean around the glass/base juncture with some isopropyl alcohol on a Q-tip, then drip some glue where the glass and base meet in 4 or 5 places around the perimeter and let it dry overnight.  Haven't had one break loose again after doing that....so far.


----------



## iFi audio

bcowen said:


> Having the base separate from the glass is not uncommon with NOS tubes. Since you've been careful to handle it by the base only it's unlikely any damage has occurred, but it's best to re-glue it to prevent a future accident and/or stressing the element wires in the base.



I agree with this. Just fix the base to the glass compartment and everything should be fine


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Having the base separate from the glass is not uncommon with NOS tubes.  Since you've been careful to handle it by the base only it's unlikely any damage has occurred, but it's best to re-glue it to prevent a future accident and/or stressing the element wires in the base.  I use Rhino Glue which is just a brand name for good old cyanoacrylate (Krazy Glue).  Some use clear nail polish, and I'm sure there are other adhesives that will work well too.  I carefully clean around the glass/base juncture with some isopropyl alcohol on a Q-tip, then drip some glue where the glass and base meet in 4 or 5 places around the perimeter and let it dry overnight.  Haven't had one break loose again after doing that....so far.





iFi audio said:


> I agree with this. Just fix the base to the glass compartment and everything should be fine


I hate to muddy the waters, but I've been told not to glue the base to the glass. Supposedly the different rate of expansion/contraction between the glass and plastic can increase the chance of cracking.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I hate to muddy the waters, but I've been told not to glue the base to the glass. Supposedly the different rate of expansion/contraction between the glass and plastic can increase the chance of cracking.


Interesting.  The base was glued to the glass at the factory, or they'd all be loose even when brand new.  

I have had (and have seen) octals with a crack in the base.  Was it caused by the differing expansion rates, or by rough handling, or by a weak spot when manufactured?  Don't know.  Perhaps different things at different times.  Personally though, I'd rather deal with a cracked base than a totally dead tube caused by an element lead breaking or coming loose as a result of the loose base.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  The base was glued to the glass at the factory, or they'd all be loose even when brand new.
> 
> I have had (and have seen) octals with a crack in the base.  Was it caused by the differing expansion rates, or by rough handling, or by a weak spot when manufactured?  Don't know.  Perhaps different things at different times.  Personally though, I'd rather deal with a cracked base than a totally dead tube caused by an element lead breaking or coming loose as a result of the loose base.


Ahh, I got the impression that it was just press fit between the glass and base. Or maybe it depends on the glue. I do know folks told me when I asked about fixing cracked bases not to get CA (crazy glue) on both the base and glass because of the heating/cooling thing


----------



## wwmhf

Yes, we can just glue the glass to the base. I did it twice. Even I do not remember what kind of glue I used, both tubes hold up well so far. I used the one suggested on the internet.


----------



## wwmhf

Slade01 said:


> You would be extremely pressed to find 6SN7s that come close to what a 6F8G/6C8G can do in my opinion at least in the DV.  I'm sure the 6F8G/WE421A is a nice pairing.


 I agree that 6F8G is very hard to match up by a 6SN7. 6C8G is not as good as 6F8G, but it also beat most of my 6SN7s.


----------



## wwmhf

SHIMACM said:


> A GEC 6as7g with GEC L63 also opens the heavens for angels to whisper in your ear.
> 
> A valve combination worthy of a final game.


This L63 substitution for 6SN7 is new and interesting to me, but L63 seems to be expensive and hard to find ....


----------



## Slade01

wwmhf said:


> This L63 substitution for 6SN7 is new and interesting to me, but L63 seems to be expensive and hard to find ....


its worth it though.  even the newer straight bottle GEC L63.  it became one of my endgame driver tubes for the DV.


----------



## pravous

SHIMACM said:


> A GEC 6as7g with GEC L63 also opens the heavens for angels to whisper in your ear.
> 
> A valve combination worthy of a final game.


That roll was one of my favorites in the BHC.   Was also my first 6j5 listen.    Lots of great choices in that family.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 17, 2022)

*Tung Sol 7N7 & Tung Sol 6520* (_Carbon Dimpled Plates_)


----------



## YungOmbat

JKDJedi said:


> *Tung Sol 7N7 & Tung Sol 6520* (_Carbon Dimpled Plates_)


how much were those


----------



## JKDJedi

YungOmbat said:


> how much were those


I got these way below the current asking prices. It's insane out there in the market right now. The story behind this tube is I had sold it to Florida and they seemingly blew it up on their amp, I the gentleman took it back and lost monies on a nice tube. tested it and it was dead, that was a year ago. So I pull out my Chatham 5998 and roll it and it's been in there for about a month or two. Last night,  listening to my old Holiday playlist, I take a good look at my amp, because the sound is incredible. And to my surprise,  I had accidently grabbed the 6520, and it's been working this whole time in my amp.... 0. 0


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I got these way below the current asking prices. It's insane out there in the market right now. The story behind this tube is I had sold it to Florida and they seemingly blew it up on their amp, I the gentleman took it back and lost monies on a nice tube. tested it and it was dead, that was a year ago. So I pull out my Chatham 5998 and roll it and it's been in there for about a month or two. Last night,  listening to my old Holiday playlist, I take a good look at my amp, because the sound is incredible. And to my surprise,  I had accidently grabbed the 6520, and it's been working this whole time in my amp.... 0. 0


Lol.  So you had the George Bailey of tubes.   A glimpse of it burning out dead, and now celebrating life!  It's a wonderful life sound!  X-Mas.  Miracle.  🎅


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## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Lol.  So you had the George Bailey of tubes.   A glimpse of it burning out dead, and now celebrating life!  It's a wonderful life sound! X-Mas. Miracle. 🎅


LOL.. the tube whisperer ..  I'm sure it's this tube, the bottom has the burned glass at the bottom. I almost threw it out last year. If it goes out again after the Holidays...I will totally freak.


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## JKDJedi




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## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> LOL.. the tube whisperer ..  I'm sure it's this tube, the bottom has the burned glass at the bottom. I almost threw it out last year. If it goes out again after the Holidays...I will totally freak.


Maybe it's still dead and you're getting all the amplification from the 7N7.  Frankie's are wondrous tubes.   🤣  🤣


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## therremans

wwmhf said:


> This L63 substitution for 6SN7 is new and interesting to me, but L63 seems to be expensive and hard to find ....


I think the problem is that you’re not trying hard enough. 😊


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## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Maybe it's still dead and you're getting all the amplification from the 7N7.  Frankie's are wondrous tubes.   🤣  🤣


The Frankie is strong with this one. ..


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


>



Hey that Khruangbin band sounds kind cool.  Thanks for that!


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## neyurt

L0rdGwyn said:


> Okay, going to try to explain how you go about center-tapping and elevating the heaters of the stock DarkVoice.
> 
> *Please read in full before making any changes, be sure to understand what you are doing before you do it.  If you are unsure if what you have done is correct, take a photo and PM me or post in the thread and tag me.  Carry out these modifications at your own risk, there is ~200VDC inside the amplifier, working with high voltages carries a shock and safety hazard.
> 
> ...


I made this mod. Just wanted to stop by to say thank you


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## L0rdGwyn

neyurt said:


> I made this mod. Just wanted to stop by to say thank you



No problem, glad it worked out.


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## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> The Frankie is strong with this one. ..


…. “It’s alive, it’s alive” …. 😳🥲 ….


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## OnlySoMany

I have had good luck with NOS RCA tubes, and PSVANE. RCA is slightly brighter/more intimate, and PSVANE slightly darker, but more rhythmic.


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## JKDJedi

I almost bought another tube... 😏 (blaming you @Slade01 )


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I almost bought another tube... 😏 (blaming you @Slade01 )


hey now. what did I do? lol.  I've been on tube hiatus for quite sometime.   what did you almost get? (i thought you had all the top shelf stuff by now!)


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## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> hey now. what did I do? lol.  I've been on tube hiatus for quite sometime.   what did you almost get? (i thought you had all the top shelf stuff by now!)


Those curvy Gec L63 ... lol, nope, did not pull the trigger ...


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## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Those curvy Gec L63 ... lol, nope, did not pull the trigger ...


there's something about British tubes.  you, my friend, need the proper encouragement such as this.  here's to the British! cheers.


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## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> there's something about British tubes.  you, my friend, need the proper encouragement such as this.  here's to the British! cheers.


🥂 Cheers.


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## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> there's something about British tubes.  you, my friend, need the proper encouragement such as this.  here's to the British! cheers.


Is that beer, or a breakfast drink?   🤣  🤣


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## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Is that beer, or a breakfast drink?   🤣  🤣


its both!  breakfast of champions!


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## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Is that beer, or a breakfast drink?   🤣  🤣


Is there a difference?


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## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Is there a difference?


You guys are too hard core for me.  I _never _drink until 8 AM.


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## DarkDrummer

What's a good replacement audio HP cable for my Senn. HD650. I'm having issues finding a nice repl. cable w/1/4" end. 8'-10' Lng. Any HELP is GREAT!!!......thanks in advance. Bill


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## JKDJedi

DarkDrummer said:


> What's a good replacement audio HP cable for my Senn. HD650. I'm having issues finding a nice repl. cable w/1/4" end. 8'-10' Lng. Any HELP is GREAT!!!......thanks in advance. Bill


https://periaptcables.com/
and we have members here who custom make them, they might chime in soon.
@therremans


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## Slade01

DarkDrummer said:


> What's a good replacement audio HP cable for my Senn. HD650. I'm having issues finding a nice repl. cable w/1/4" end. 8'-10' Lng. Any HELP is GREAT!!!......thanks in advance. Bill


Also consider if you want solid, but inexpensive cables:

https://fogcityaudio.com/
https://www.audiophileninja.com/

I've bought cables from both companies, stand up guys, all passionate about their craft, all pretty top-notch.


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