# cup tuning basics.



## thelostMIDrange

This is a personal journal in exploring the 'tuning' of wood cups for a magnum v4 driver. totally random and unorganized, for educational purposes only.
   
  mission statement: do the mag justice by building a cup to maximize musicality, naturalness and expression of emotion in music. Specifically the development of a wood cup that has little to no 'wood color' but retains wood's natural affect on sound,
   
  Ideal headphone would have a variation of the grado style presentation with more natural e/q and smoother, with more extended and better defined low end and a nicer 'atmosphere' rather than a rip your face off sound or just an 'in the band' sound. I want to be the band ! and feel what they feel, not watch. music is not a spectator sport. it is part participitory, 'be the band',  but mostly for me, it is a vehicle to be sent out from worldly cares. It is magical and agree with aldous huxley when he says, that which comes closest to expressing the inexpressible, it music.
   
  the underlying assumption is that the cup that holds the driver is a complex and subtle little carrier and needs to be finely tuned to a particular driver in order to achieve anything approaching musical and/or reference qualtiy headphones that do not fatigue over long term listening sessions.
   
  And cup tuning is the art of maximizing synergy and potential of a particular wood cup (in this case) and driver.
   
  The basic method is simple. Listen to a raw wood without finish in several different cup geometry's. Get acquainted with its vibe, note it's strong and weak points, as well as those of each cup geometry (particularly length of cup, mass and wal thickness)
   
  Once you have chosen your favorite raw wood cup sound, you can make assumptions about why you like that particular cup (length, shape, thickness etc) or you can just proceed to the next step which is applying a finish. And know that cup tuners that have come before you have already established that the finish plays a big role in final sound.....
   
  So the goal of finishing is to retain as much of the raw wood sounds' nicer qualites while simultaneously negating as many of the raw woods sound 'problems'......This is how to judge the success of your finish treatment. I have found that the finish generally does take a quality of two down with it and does fix a quality or two of it's problems. I've never succeeded in never losing a quality and negating all the negatives with finish. So it's an imperfect science, but it's still a powerful tool in the cup tuners bag o' tricks and shouldn't be left unused. A wood cup needs all the help it can get to sound musical, natural, and free of wood color.
   
  What wood should the cup makers of the future utilize. Stick to hardwoods. Stick to diffuse porous woods (most hardwoods are) and not ring porous woods
   
  pic showing ring porous (left) and diffuse porous (right)

   
  To further increase your chances or musical cups, concentrate on those diffuse porous woods with medium to large pores. Larger the better. This is what seems to give breath to sound. Small to small medium pore woods tend to sound hard and/or strident. Avoid hardwoods that are too light and soft (low density) as they tend to sound too airy and can lack punch and impact (32 or less)
   
  those that are most likely to yield musical cups ime:
  limba, avodire, mango, iroko, zebrawood. I have only heard 2 of these. The other wood that theoretically should yield good results if the above criteria are valid is east indian rosewood as it is diffuse porous with large pores, but I didn't have luck with it. I admit I only tried it in one cup length, and I have since found that length of cup is critical, so perhaps in the right length I could have gotten that rosewood to work. Just goes to show how one of these major variables that is out of line can ruin the whole synergy and tuning of cup. Either that or the rosewwood was too dense, which is another suspicion of mine that such woods are less likely to yield natural sounding cups. This is an immature science however.........
   
  Here is a compilation list of various woods (all diffuse porous unless noted)
   
   
  Species                Density lbs/ft  
   
softwoods:
  Cedar, Western Red 23
 Sequoia Redwood 26
 Spruce, Sitka 27
 Port Orford Cedar  30
  
  
hardwoods medium density:
  Mahogany, honduran  34 large pores
 Bigleaf Maple 34
 Walnut  36  semi ring porous small pores
  Black Limba 37 medium to large pores
 Avodire 38 medium pores
 Teak 42 semi ring porous
 Koa 41 small pores
  Mango 43 medium pores
 Acacia 42
 Iroko 42 large pores
   
hardwoods very dense/hard:
  Mahogany,african 43
 Maple, hard 45 small pores
 Rosewood Brazilian  53 small pores
 zebrawood 54 medium pores
 Pau Ferro 55 small pores
 Wenge 57 large pores
 East Indian Rosewood 57 large pores
 Bubinga 58 medium pores
 Cocobolo 67 small to medium pores
 Ebony, Macassar  69 small pores
 Ebony,gaboon 69 small pores
 kingwood 74 small pores
 Bloodwood 78 small pores
 African Blackwood 78 small pores
   
   
   
  cup tuning is serious fun !
  sense of humor and love of music only requirements beyond this point.....enter here if you dare.....


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## thelostMIDrange

installment #117
   
  limba
  1.25" overall length
  1 3/8" port
  simple bead end detail
  standard truoil treatment
   
  only variable is inner wall treatment............one wetsanded but didn't succeed well, raw wood mostly, other left oil finish as is
   
  oiled: hotter, similar to platicized grados.
  bass almost totally unaffected
  starts affecting at low mids
  much more treble energy
   
   
  wetsanded:
  lost too much treble in the deal
   
   
  note to self: try again with a true wetsanded cup


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## thelostMIDrange

installment #118
   
  limba
  1.25" overall length
  1 3/8" port
  simple bead end detail
  standard truoil treatment
   
  only variable is inner wall treatment............successful wetsand vs standard oil finish
   
  oiled:
  darker
  murky bass
  more treble energy-not of high quality\
  strident vocal
   
   
  wetsanded:
  nice hi hat
  more natural snare
  nicer bass definition- nice and weight'y
  natural vocal


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## drtturnip

I suppose those little wood fibers would suck up some energy.


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## thelostMIDrange

RAW hond mahog vs tiger maple
   
  dug out this . tige rmaple, was one of my favorites back when the drivers were breaking in but felt it was a little too airy and light. With burned in magnum, the match is as my pappy used to say, 'sumthin else' after a few hundred hours, the magum 'dropped' and is now better suited for this wood. limba less so after burn in btw
   
   mahogany just sounds so workmanlike. it gets the job done, but doesn't set my heart aflutter. still an odd honky boxy qualtiy to the mids. Thetiger maple   in contrast, sounds like a breath of fresh air. don't recall ever hearing bass so articulate. lots of air throughout the mids. very spacious. vocals are supernatural, realistic, balanced. Only real issue is a touch of splash in the trebles and a very slight lack of fullness, which might very well get taken care of with finish. it's right in the finish's wheelhouse of things it tends to deal with. Will be spending time with this maple. Bass is perfect. amazing the difference. These are very similar woods and yet ENTIRELY different........totally different vibes.


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## thelostMIDrange

RAW limba vs tiger maple (same as above) v4 300 hours
   
  limbas low end is not defined, biggest difference here. santos lows are not as full but far more defined. very musical.
  maple has an echo'y quality that is part enjoyable, part odd. Very well could be taken care of with finish.
  limba is a full sound, sometimes too much so depending on the material.
  limba has rich midrange. maple more sparse
  maple has a special thing going on in the upper end. super enjoyable. natural, ride cymbals stand out on a pedastal
  vocal expression hard to beat with maple. very close emotional connection. vocal vibrato seems to linger . very nice


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## thelostMIDrange

raw limba vs finished limba
   
  hearing what the finish is doing here to the treble makes me very excited about the possibilites of that tiger maple. If it calms down the same way, might be super sweet. the finish tames the splash and gives fullness to the mids, about the only two things lacking in the santos......I believe the finish on this limba is tru oil but not certain....so will try it and linseed on the santos with high hopes. May have to change application and will take some time, but worth the effort to see if santos can really be woods' version of aluminum. Seems to have the best of both materials in it's nature. Will take the right finish to bring them out without ruining it's magical raw wood sounds......it's easy to ruin good things in raw wood with finish. This is the art of cup tuning - improving the faults of the raw wood sound while not losing raw wood's strengths...
   
  finish changes the entire character of the sound. many times more refined. general e/q is almost the same for each but just about everything else sounds different...
  don't feel i did limba sservice with this finish.....there are nice qualites in the raw wood sound missing in finished. I murdered the bass. don't know how though


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## thelostMIDrange

raw tiger maple (same as above) one chamber 1.25" other 1.75". everything else identical.
   
  revelation
   
  longer cup has no redeeming value in comparison, shorter cup does everything better, even low end


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## thelostMIDrange

one cup has the oil finish unsanded on the inner chamber walls, the other has same oil finish but wet sanded to a slurry and wiped away, leaving a semi-bare wood oil penetrated surface. Oil is hardened underneath.....I've done this to all my recent oiled cups, not just this little a/b. and spent quite a bit of time enjoying the results. I find this little tip really helps keep the upper mids, especially snare drums from sounding artificial. It gives a nice balance between refining the upper mids while keeping them quite musical and neutral. Generally I've found the inner finish treatment affects the upper mids the most..


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## thelostMIDrange

interesting thing about mahog and limba.......when they are used to make a guitar, they end up like this:
   
  the mahog is darker sounding and low mid centered, the limba is brighter, sharper and high mid centered.......
   
  when used for headphones, the opposite happens, the limba is darker sounding and low mid centered the mahog is brighter and high mid centered......
   
  what does this tell us about resonance in the two scenarios? and/or the affect of the finish treatment on resonance?
   
   
   
  some more details on the inner surface, 'foundMIDmod' anyone who can hold back the little devil on your shoulder telling you this stuff is voodoo and a total waste of time will reap the benefits and anyone who can't, will not. life is not often fair, but this seems to me an exception.
   
  I oiled these yesterday. I usually do the wetsand 'foundMIDmod' many days or weeks after the cups have dried.This time i wanted to rush and do it so I can compare oils, since these were done with danish again. I have been using tru-oil for the last month.....side point, will be doing alot more comparing of 3 oils (danish, tru, linseed) soon..........back to story, and come to find that the mod won't work unless the oil has time to fully cure. so at this point i'm thinking a week or so. What happens when you don't wait is all the oil just lifts off and bare wood is left. It looks different and feels different compared to when you do it right (and does not sound nearly as good as mentioned before).......see bottom of post for how it should look and feel if done right





   
   
  so I need to take the time and clairfy some details on this mod. More for my own clarification but might as well post it too............ god is in the details here.
   
  let's assume one is doing a full finish of the cups themselves from the beginning, apply your 3 or more coats of oil in a particular manner - dip entire cup into bath, pull out within 10 secs, wipe off excess in 15 mintues. wait 2 days, wipe on with cotton t shirt the 2nd and 3rd coats which can be right on the heels of each other(whatever the instructions tell you for that oil (30 mins for example) since we are only waiting for the first coat to harden and stop further coats from penetrating...........now back to mod, after you have waited a week or at least several days if you can't wait, for the full cure, do the wet sanding but keep these things in mind:
   



  this process should take 60 seconds or less/cup..................you can see the 'slurry' here. 150 -220 grit paper. _*very lightly dampen *the paper in a *few drops* of water_, andthen just circle it around the cup lightly 2 or 3 times. we are not trying to sand anything or remove the oil necessarily. we want to just loosen it up, suspend it in the water (slurry) and after the slurry forms, take a t shirt and circle the slurry around, spreading it on the wall.....some will come off on the tshirt and that's good. we also want to get rid of the top film of oil. but do not 'dab' at the slurry and try to pick it out,,,,,we want to spread it like butter around the inner wall. again this is just a full rotation or 2 with the t shirt. do not scour anything during this process......this process should take no more than a minute really.............VERY GENTLE.........wait a few days for it to dry, listen and if needed (if snare drums sound artificial is a great constant to check with), go back and repeat the process: a couple circles with wet sandpaper, and quickly (before it dries) a couple circles with a cotton shirt...................that's it. if you've done it right, the feel will be much like a smooth rock or piece of marble; hard and smooth.....if you feel a rough or bare wood surface something went wrong and would have to start over by oiling, wating for cure, try the mod again, probably more gently with a greater appreciation of what you are tying to do..........Also, right after you do this mod, the wood will still be wet and therefore dark in color, much like the oil. so it will look like nothing has been done....it takes time for the thing to dry and the fruits of your labour to reveal themselves and the result should look alot like bare wood, but different, with a hue of something else in the background (which is the butter spread and hardened oil slurry)...... Again, I know you may be saying to yourself (the little devil is saying it to you) this is a waste of my time, i could be watching american idol.....and you will not reap the benefits if you give in to that devil, proving that the world does make sense sometimes and there is divine justice.


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## thelostMIDrange

painted hond mahog outside only vs raw hond mahog v4 300 hours
   



   
  Paint on the outside only, is certainly no liability and possibly an asset. The difference between these two is subtle, but If forced to choose one, I would pick the painted set. In fact I will finish painting these and make a set out of them with standard oil on inside- even didn't get all the paint off and still they sound quite nice. So paint on inside. Big no no. outside, I don't see why not .


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## thelostMIDrange

identical limba cups except _inside_ finish:
  one has wetsanded gunstock oil with no top coat the other has gunstock oil inner with inner topcoat of paste wax v4 300 hours the waxed is a little artificially 'smooth' sounding. Things are a little smeared together and snare drums are artifically 'fat' sounding. I was already familiar with the affect of wax on the inside because I made 2 sets with this formula a while back, when I placed less importance on the inside surface. I was waxing the outside, and said, why not wax the inside too. It's not that the wax on inside sets were terrible sounding, just a little artifical and smeared. It became irritating after listening for longer time periods when all the songs had a carry-over of some quality. That's when I knew something is up and traced it back to the wax. I don't recognize any ill affects from wax on the outside however and have made many sets with it.


fec


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## thelostMIDrange

Limba raw vs Limba w/ 3 coats gunstock oil v4 300 hours
   
  The finish is the only way to refine the midrange and upper end. I don't think I prefer the raw wood sounds in any wood vs a finished one. The trick and difficulty is how to choose and apply the finish so that the wood sound is enahanced not ruined. Raw woods generally sound good, but lack control in the way the mids and trebles decay. Raw sounds are more splashy and un-civilized. The decay is more ragged. The finish gives body to the upper end. Raw wood just doesn't sound 'finished' or right in some way. Cup tuning is how to choose the wood and finish for a particular driver. It has to be deliberate. To not fine tune methodically results in a total crapshoot as to whether it will sound musical and even........... And these two woods are actually quite similar in properties and yet they are quite different sounding. Those exotics are way different in their properties. We are at like page one of the story of cup tuning................In a way, I feel wood is a great choice of material for cups but also, not ideal. It takes the finish to really bring it up to the level the magnum driver deserves. Wood is too organic sounding raw and needs finish to refine it. Metal is not organic enough raw and needs a finish to give it soul. I think we'd have better luck and control with the former than the latter. It's hard to give soul to metals but possible to give grace to wood imo
  d


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## thelostMIDrange

perhaps an extreme example,but for fun, I made these mahogany in paint..... more proof that finishes matter.....these don't sound good. Next is to remove any paint from inside surface and recheck. Should sound similar to oiled mahogany I suspect. ......


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## thelostMIDrange

_"I suppose those little wood fibers would suck up some energy."_
   
  very generally, I can say raw wood sounds very unrefined. meaning, dry, poor instrument truness. mids tend to be chewy and highs tend to be washed sounding. Raw woods can still be enjoyed. I have listened to some for hours but I would never think of them as a final solution for a sound chamber. It takes the right finish to make them musical and natural sounding. So yes the raw wood fibres certainly do absorb lots of energy.


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## thelostMIDrange

note to self:
   the inner wall mod is a very delicate technique. I need to figure out how much water is too much and amount of movement to get slurry right. For some reason I end up with bare wood on certain cups....could this be because the cups were not dipped, but wiped on finish and therefore not penetrated deep enough? must figure that out asap. 
   
  could also be the type of oil. I know danish oil slurry's well but have suspicion is a dog for sound generally. Linseed oil and santos next project.


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## drtturnip

You grado dudes are serious(ly nuts) {>


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## thelostMIDrange

how so?


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## sluker

Subscribed


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## stratocaster

Now that's what I'd call diy and modding spirit! Thanks for sharing your findings and letting people participate in your research.


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## thelostMIDrange

thanks for the support guys ! good things coming soon.........


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## lingdaowen

I'm really impressed with your dedication and effort in researching these cups! Waiting to learn more!


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## thelostMIDrange

tiger maple with boiled linseed oil (2 to1 mineral spirits/linseed oil) 1 coat 1 day later    vs raw limba  
   
   
   
  gin blossoms 'someday soon'
  maple: acoustic guitar very natural. space still there, a distant detail and truness of sound not heard in any other wood. at 2:50 -3:05 can actually hear the _quality_ of the wood block being tapped to time way in the background. with limba, not only can I basically not hear the block of wood, I certainly can't hear it's quality.
   
  low end on limba is blurry, same up into low mids.
   
  slowly dragged chords, almost arpeggio, are fully heard as the pick is raked across the strings with maple. the sound is simultanoeusly very paced and at the same time in slow motion as you hear the nuance. Similar to its affect on vocal vibrato, time seems to slow down, but the pace of the song keeps on going. This may be it's most amazing quality. It lingers on the parts of the performance where the musican is really puttig himself into it and simultaneously keeps a very quick pace to the background of the song.
   
  limba has none of this. in comparison, sounds like the entire band is playing in a pad coated room. no room ambiance
   
  the feel of the hardened lindseed oil cup is very stiff. even one wiped on coat totally turned this into a hard feeling piece of wood. but this is not your exotic wood hardness. it's light and not dense at all. it's stiff.
   
   
   
   
   
  the connells, one simple word - same as above. bass far superior with santos.more detail, more natural


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## thelostMIDrange

same as above except drivers are exchanged from cup to cup
   
  same results as above. - Since I'm only using one driver for each wood, this test makes sure it is not driver variation that is repsonisble for the difference. Was 99% sure it wasn't because I know these drivers would not have been so different. especially since they have same number of hours on them....nice to confirm though.


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## thelostMIDrange

tiger maple raw vs 1 day 2parts mineral spirits to 1 diluted linseed oil
   
  the raw cup is 1.75" long
  treated cup is 1.25" long
   
  longer raw cup still has no redeeming value in comparison
   
  linseed oil seems to be nice. need to shorten the cup now to 1.25" and do a true a/b with the same size raw vs treated tiger maple to finally hear the finish affects. out to the chop saw........


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## thelostMIDrange

back
   
  raw tiger maple vs linseed tiger maple, both cups are now 1.25" .........finish the only variable
   
  the linseed cup makes the raw cup sound like limba in comparison. When i heaerd maple in raw form with limba, it was night and day, now almost the same with treated vs raw maple. Never imagiend it would go up in it desirable qualities, I was just hoping for a negation of some of its negatives.
   
  need to listen more to see if it did negate some of its negatives


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## thelostMIDrange

note to self: need to put these wire leads on clips....why am i soldering these every time? not necessary


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## thelostMIDrange

limba, raw sleeve vs sleeve with plastic end cap fit tightly. only variable
   
  amazing find !
   
  instantly recognize the affect of an end cap. subtle but it's a tightening of tone and more
   
  if you play guitar, imagine a bass guitar string jangling an E flat note. now imagine the string tension is tightened to E natural. it's that kind of tightening. frankly i'm not sure I want or need it but reminds me of my hf 2 quality. it was a quality i was on the fence about actually.
   
  I heard this quality with the hf2 but never would have guessed it was the end cap's affect. 
   
  without cap things are more alive. bass guitar more alive, everything really.  I think i'd rather damp things differently if at all. Will only know this once I get some full cups made with full finish treatment but have another intersting idea that I have great hopes for. Will take me a great deal of time to make a cup with it but will do it. It's a laminated 3 piece cup, with a 1/8" or so layer of hard to medium hard rubber.foam laminated right at the back end of driver so it's not in the sound chamber. So basically 1/4" limba, 1/8" anti vibration device, 7/8" santos ....is the idea. will compare this to full one piece santos. will take me several days to make this though, lots of millwork involved and need to source the right damoing material....any ideas shooet 'em out....I have a plastic and foam supplier right around the corner where i live, might be a good place to start. the thickness is key since I just want to glue laminate and not have to dimension it myself.. btw this has nothing to do with the driver. it mounts and is untouched. I am just going to make a cup with a thin laminated section in the middle to stop transfer of vibration from the moving driver to the rest of the cup. the placement of the vibration material is critical since i don't want it in the sound chamber....so it will be towards the front end of the cup but right at the back edge of the driver....that's the idea in any case


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## thelostMIDrange

time to check in on those 'imaginary' burn inaffects.....150 hours vs 300 v4 magnum
   
  otherwise identical limba sleeves. driver time only variable
   
   
  150 is simultaneneously 'brighter' and yet less detailed in treble. cymbals upper end percussion very nice on 300 set.....
   
  so the brightness is not from increased treble on the 150, it is upper mid brightness. which was alredy know to me but nice to confirm that and also learn that the trebles should only get better.
   
  getting closer
   
   
  bass more natural and defined on 300 hour set. everything really. a slight mid bloom and richness of sound which is one reason i use the magnum to begin with is there on the 300 hour set. I wonder if this is the limba- i believe it is. and wonder if i will miss this quality with santos? suspicion is that the bloom with limba is the same thing as the extended slow down affect on vibrato and arppegios in the santos, it just manifests itself differently.......excited about this the most. in each case, (limba and santos) it is this quality which is where the magic is. everything else is about getting natural sounds and even e/q but to have a touch of magic always there is what it's about for me. I don't want totally neutral. And in each case, this magical quality is totally natural, so it's not an nunatural 'bloom' or an unatural 'extension of vibrato. It's totally natural......
   
  the character of instruments is more evident on 300 hour set. just overall more musical and enjoyable.
   
  but generally i'd say things are going in the right direction. will not check in again until 250/300 hours.


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## thelostMIDrange

settled on this 1/32 paper which is vinyl impregnated fiberglass....a couple layers of this lamininated into the cup should show interestesting results
   

   
  actually, once this is epoxyied, it will be quite stiff, may not serve my purpose of damping, I may need a 1/16" piece of actual rubber or some other anti vibratory material....will need to make a few different cups with different materials and then compare to standard full wood cup,


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## thelostMIDrange

raw mahog sleeve vs tuoil with no inner wall wetsand
  other variable is of course the added end detail on the right cup but i've found this is minimal affect.
  no other variables
   
  interesting test but nothing new here for me. finish does it's job of refining the entire sound especially mids on up. There is a artificial splash on the finished cup but this is because it hasn't been wet sanded, it is original oil finish.once wetsanded,the finished cup would be superior in every way. again raw wood, no contest....I do need to do a test with oiled outside raw wood inside vs fully oiled cup, but i suspect i know the results of that one. will do it sometime in any case..
   
  overall sound, again, not bad, mahogany is a good fun all'rounder but with no real magic anywhere and a little airy thin and not natural in upper mids. total grado sound here, but nicer because of the magnum
   

   
  btw, i feel mahogany is 'fun' only because the upper mids are in the front, and this is where snare drums do there thing keeping the time and pace of music made by humans. hence 'it's fun and lively'......try some music not made by humans with snare durms and with a timekeeping beat elsewhere besides upper mids and I bet mahog is not longer 'fun'
   
  there are other ways to get fun and pace from a wood than this. and plus the costs to the overall e/q and unatural sounds are way too high just for a little 'fun'


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## thelostMIDrange

full paint only 1 day dry time, not really enough for paint, would take a week or more to harden so not really fair to it,
  VS
  truoil
  both are hond mahog
   
  no other variables
   
  paint is damped a bit, maybe helps a bit with this mahogany because the upper mids need damping but i suspect with a nicer sounding wood the paint would dampen and ruin an otherwise lively sound...still need to wait for paint to dry though, this could very well be soft paint doing this....also this is not huge affect, very subtle damping affect.....will try again after a week or two for full paint dry and maybe again after a top poly coat, that unforunately paint needs.  don't expect great results but why not check it out.


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## chrislangley4253

you are awesome. Absolutely awesome.. Can't wait to find out where the santos leads you and I'm excited about this layered dampened cup, as well.


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## drtturnip

> how so?


 
  It was actually a backhanded compliment.


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





drtturnip said:


> It was actually a backhanded compliment.


 


  I caught it.


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## thelostMIDrange

I caught the backhand ! it's all good though we all don't have the same sense of humor, but at least we have one.
   
  made my first full sized set of tiger maple, still in raw wood form. will final sand tonight and choose first finish. likely a light linseed oil since it seems to sound good and dries quick.
   
  in raw form with 150 hour drivers.
   
  lots of potential negatives with this scenario and expected it to sound worse than it does:
  unburned drivers
  raw wood
  no headband
   
  are all tone suckers
   
  but with that in mind, very clear and natural sounds, great space, great bass, a little light (lacking low mid fullness), upper mids and trebles unrefined
   
  I know the finish can deal with that last issue, and to some extent the lack of fullness. burned in drivers should further fill in the midrange........If not, I may smell a hybrid limba/santos cups in the wings...........oh I forgot, that would be a waste of time, all woods pretty much sound the same, finishes don't matter and driver burn in is a myth............................I guess i have a sarcastic side after all !.


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## thelostMIDrange

just popped in 300 hour drivers in same raw cups......fills out the mids nice. upper mids more natural...finish should do the rest.
   
   
   
  listening to some of my know to be particularly harsh recordings. I have them in a folder, labeled, harsh recordings....tiger handles them quite well and not doing so by making them dull or murky. don't know how it's doing it. tiger, whisper your secrets to me so i can help you sing. I am your friend. tell me why you sound so fresh, like a summer breeze up my shorts.


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> just popped in 300 hour drivers in same raw cups......fills out the mids nice. upper mids more natural...finish should do the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> listening to some of my know to be particularly harsh recordings. I have them in a folder, labeled, harsh recordings....santos handles them quite well and not doing so by making them dull or murky. don't know how it's doing it. santos, whisper your secrets to me so i can help you sing. I am your friend. tell me why you sound so fresh, like a summer breeze up my shorts.


 
  Right on!
   
  Rolling on the floor man.


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## dorino

MID must get a lot of slivers.


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





dorino said:


> MID must get a lot of slivers.


 


  splinters?


----------



## dorino

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> splinters?


 

 Yes. My father always said slivers, they mean the same thing.


----------



## t-crisis

Hey lostMIDrange, 
   
  I don't mean to get off topic, but how do you mount the drivers in the cups? You have a lot of experience with how the magnums ring with the wood and so I figure you're the guy to ask. I have mine mounted with double sided foam/tape stuff for now, but I would think that maybe glue would work better. Does it matter?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

i get both of 'em. slivers and splinters, and once in a great while i get a sphincter. those are a bitch to get out.
   
  this post is for budding cup tuners everywhere. some guidelines tips and techniques for listening to sound and sound differences: some dos and donuts if you will:
   
  1.always try to reduce all variables except one at a time, two is ok. especially if you are familiar with variable 2 and can mentally weed it out of the equation
  2.best way to judge anything when you are at the beginning of an investigation is to have one cup different than the other. in other words it doesn't take 2 separate sets of headphones to hear a quality. Sure that would be great in a perfect world. but when you have to make the things you are goint to listen to it's best to minimize the amount of stuff you have to produce.
  3. so when you are using one cup, you can't just have the one cup on the left ear and other on the right comparing the variable you are investiagating because your ears are different. Yes they are, I think the left is connected to your right brain side and other to other. but regardless of what's happening with the internal wiring, you hear different with each ear...so what you do is listen to one cup with left ear, drop it move up the other cup (the variable) to same ear and listen, then repeat with the other ear. back and forth if needed quicklike until your impression is solidified.
  4. be scientific in your test forumulations and preparations and artisitic when it comes time to listen. in other words, do your work to get your variables worked out and planned, but when you listen, relax, sink into your unconsicous childlike mode and just hear the sound. If you try and listen, you mess everything up. a good zen buddhist will tell you never try to do something that comes naturally. sound comes to your brain, you don't need to strenuously or actively reach out, tense up and listen for it.
  5. it's good to divide things up unto bas middle and treble to be able to categorize and comuunicate it but pay more attention to how you feel while listening and especially when you are done if it is a longer term session. do you feel happy, sad, perplexed,have a headache, annoyed, joyous, horny, hungry? etc
  6. there's alot more to this list, will add later, right now i'm hungry.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

depends on how tight the opening is. fwiw if it's too loose, usually a thin tape such as electrical or even thinner wrapped part way around the driver edge is enough to hold it in there snug and i haven't noticed any loss or gain of any sound from having to use tape. if it's tight, your're done. i don't see the need for glue ever unless you are a corporation and letigious. grado glues them to reduce returns, and movement from shipping and maybe they even oversize the opening to make it easier on themselves. I'd guess all of these for them. but for personal use, i don't think glue's a good idea. can't get it out if needed. I found out some guys put a little ridge around the driver to allow for a small tool to ease the driver out from the top and that is a great idea. i've been just pushing them out from the back, will try and put a few tab openings on the top to allow for a tool to dig in and ease the driver out from the top so one doesn't have to remove andor ruin the screen in the back just to get at the driver. I'm still learning


----------



## thelostMIDrange

mythbusters installment #1
   
  you can't ruin the sound of a great driver with the choice of wood cup .
   
  wrong !
   
  yes you can. if you choose the wrong wood and the wrong finish for that wood, the affect on sound is so great even the mighty magnum v4 will end up sounding as bad as the grado sr80.
  the affect of finish alone is huge. Not only the type of finish, but how and how much is applied. and where. I wouldn't advise anyone buying wood cups in the classified section if they will be used for the same driver the seller used. They didn't sound good for him and most likely won't for the new owner. the classifides may be a cup graveyard.


----------



## liamstrain

Curious - do you have any testing you have done aside from listening impressions? Differences in frequency response graphs, or anything. 
   
  This really is fascinating, and I'm curious to learn more.


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> mythbusters installment #1
> 
> you can't ruin the sound of a great driver with the choice of wood cup .
> 
> ...


 

 ahhh, if they are selling them for cheap avoid them. well, I don't know.. no one is really designing cups with emphasis on sound. So I really wouldn't buy any cup on head fi at all. lol


----------



## meltdown100

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> ahhh, if they are selling them for cheap avoid them. well, I don't know.. no one is really designing cups with emphasis on sound. So I really wouldn't buy any cup on head fi at all. lol


 


  MID, really fascinating stuff you're doing, great thread and I'm definitely staying tuned in.  
   
  But it would be great if I could come in here and maybe learn something without reading posts like that one I quoted above.  Chris, I don't remember selling you cups, but I must have based on your statement above.  Please return them for a full refund if they are not to your liking.  
   
  Because I would really hate to think you're making negative statements like that with zero first-hand knowledge / experience.


----------



## t-crisis

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> ahhh, if they are selling them for cheap avoid them. well, I don't know.. *no one is really designing cups with emphasis on sound.* So I really wouldn't buy any cup on head fi at all. lol


 


  Where do you base your evidence? I don't mean to sound that like an attack, but frankly, that's a pretty forward statement.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

.....


----------



## thelostMIDrange

......


----------



## t-crisis

thelostmidrange said:


> do you think martin custom is wiring in drivers to each set he sells and listenting?  How could he have time for it. Between the quality of that work and the pictures with the setup and ambiance? that takes a hell of alot of time. Plus the edges of the cup might get scratched if a driver was set on there


 

  Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> And could anyone point me to one review of any cup sold, or wood sound signature, or finish signature?  Let alone the combination of signatures......I think it's safe to say no one except the end user is going to hear 95% of what's made. And he better have his lucky rabbit foot.


 


  It's true that would take a lot of time, but who says they just aren't publishing the results of their research because they don't want to leak a secret? Couldn't they just make an assortment of different wood/finish cups and test them out, find the ones they like and then replicate them? Sure, they won't be perfect, but they'd be close... 
   
  As for reviews, I think there are plenty in the "Grado modders go magnum" thread we just moved from or even in other threads. If you want a review of my wood cups, I'll give it to you.
   
  lostMIDrange - I do not want, in any way, to discount your work because I would be surprised if anyone out there is as thorough as you are with the cup tuning research. You're awesome. But I don't think it's fair to make assumptions that the other guys are operating strictly with the business mentality in mind... Do you honestly think they would be doing what they're doing just to make a quick buck? 
   
  I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers without knowing what's going on behind the scenes. 
   
  I'm sorry to rant - I'll move elsewhere or shut up because I know this thread was made by lostMIDrange to discuss cup tuning.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

.......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

......


----------



## t-crisis

Agree to disagree  
   
  Is it possible to make the best-sounding and best-looking shell? Obviously, it's subjective, but I would think so


----------



## thelostMIDrange

......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

............


----------



## meltdown100

MID, I'm here because I think what you are doing is great, and I am always interested in taking things to the next level.
   
  I've got no secrets - I'll tell anybody who cares exactly how I make cups.  I started with a lathe, chisels, and forstner bits.  Realized really quickly that it was very time consuming to keep cups precise.  Especially in the critical aspects of chamber dimensions and vent opening, etc.  To evaluate how set A would sound compared to set B, C, and D was very time consuming, I had to mill all 4 sets on the lathe, which required a vast assortment of expensive forstner bits which were dulling out quickly, burning up my cups if my RPMs were too high.  
   
  Getting a CNC built and running was the solution to this problem.  I have a friend who has helped me get this going and it has been a ton of work (not to mention $) for us both.  They don't sell those cheaper engraving CNC routers with the necessary Z-axis range needed to mill cups, so this thing had to be built.  That's DIY on steroids, let me tell you - some of the parts for the mill couldn't be purchased and actually had to be fabricated. 
   
  So now we're milling the critical parts of the cups with a CNC, and I still do the finishing/shaping of the outer flange part on the lathe.  Having that provides a degree of precision where it counts sonically, that makes it possible not to have to wire up and listen to every single cup, because every cup from the same wood type and milling program is, well the same or pretty damn close.
   
  My finishing process is deliberately kept minimal when needed for porous wood like honduran mahogany, I use as little shellac as I can, really just enough to seal the wood, so that the wood characteristics don't get covered up too much.  A little bit of a beeswax/carnauba polish afterward, mostly for looks but also to fill in any pores that the shellac might have missed.  Not sealing the wood is disastrous for this kind of application, you'd end up with headphones that might sound very different depending on the season and humidity in your house, etc.  MID, you should know exactly what I'm talking about here.
   
  None of my finishes are mirror polished, I haven't done a single cup with lacquer or polyurethane.  The only way I would is if I got that as a request.  To some my cups might look dull and boring as a result, but I did that for the sake of retaining the natural sound characteristics from the wood as much as possible, to me that was much more important.
   
  Everything I've done has been thought out and deliberately geared toward sound characteristics.  I'm pretty happy with what I'm able to get even from stock Grado drivers, the chamber dimensions I'm using squeeze a little extra bass out of them.
   
  I've spent a couple months now staying up until 2am or later almost every night to learn, improve, fine tune, listen, tweak, etc. - and above all I unconditionally guarantee satisfaction, anybody for any reason doesn't care for the look, sound, whatever reason - they can return the cups for a full refund.  
   
  So what Chris said before does tweak me a bit, because he's being an armchair quarterback.  I have worked pretty hard on the exact thing he mentioned - sound quality.  My shapes and finishes are pretty simple and boring compared to other prettier stuff that is out there and 90% of my cups have been Hond. Mahog., so I'm obviously not totally focused on cosmetics.  Anyway, I'm sorry to take away from the main purpose of the thread MID started here and I'll bow back out, I just want criticism to be kept fair.  After going through the blood sweat and tears of getting the CNC finally going and doing the tuning work that I did, the previous comment needed to be challenged, because it's incorrect.
   
  I'm sure I didn't find the holy grail that MID is working diligently toward finding with my current process, but it's still a marked improvement over the stock plastic and the result of a lot of hard work on my part.  And I am always happy to share anything that I am doing with anybody here who wants to try it out for themselves.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

..............


----------



## thelostMIDrange

listening to  tiger maple cups with linseed oil. the oil pretty much ruined these. quite frustrated......magic is gone and some new oddities have taken it's place. 6 hours waysted.
   
   
   
  darren, are you reading this....may not want to use that linseed on zebra either.....


----------



## thelostMIDrange

tiger maple with linsed vs mahog with shelac
   
   
  neither of these sound good, but totally different.
   
  the linseed seems to make hi hats sound like a bag of nickels being rapped on a desk and the shelac mutes most of the treble i can't even tell it's a hi hat. both of these have very poor instrument truness. nothing sounds like it should. more waste of time.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

limba with oil and poly top vs limba with poly only
   
  poly only does not sound goood. oil and poly much nicer. will test against strait oil next.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

limba with oil vs limba with oil and poly top
   
  limba with oil sounds much nicer. poly top really does sound like a plastic cup to me. the oil underneath helps it as seen in the previous post, but i just don't hear any redeeming value in using poly, even as just a thin top coat. and i did not apply much. Maybe I need to wait days or weeks for these to harden to get accurate results but my paitence with poly is too short. can't keep on trying to get it to work. note to self,never use it again


----------



## thelostMIDrange

mahogany with shelcac vs mahogany with poly
   
  poly sounds horrible, ruins mahogany. shelac is not far behind to my ears. will try shelac vs oil mahog next


----------



## thelostMIDrange

maho with tru oil vs mahog with shelac
   
  tru oil is still my favorite for every wood i've tried with it, note to self, try it with tiger maple and comare tolinseed oil. I suspected all oils are similar, as truoil is a blend of linseed and other types of natural oils, they should be the same, but mabye not.look forward to that test. maybe it will save tiger.
   
  shelac sounds quite invasive. it really takes over the mahog and i feel i am hearing predominantly the finish. I don't have a limba with shelac to compare but my guess is they will sound similar. meaning the shelac would negate the two woods uniqeness and i'd hear a similar sound, a shelac sound. Should i ruin another limba cup to find out? or just stop using shelac like i dediced to do with poly?  note to self, stick with tru oil for now and see what happens. if it turns out oils are different from each other, spend time finding out about the nuance of the different oils and woods. if the oils turn out to sound similar to each other, searvh for a different finish entirely before returning to investigating shelac.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

mahog with truoil vs limba with linsee oil
   
  there are two big variables here so not very informative,but interesting in that it may give some insight into why tiger sounded the way it did with linseed.
   
  much prefer the mahog here. which is odd, because i ususally would prefer limba. I do not is supect because of the linseed. This hints that linseed is a dog and that it was responsible for tiger's demise. even looking forward more now to tiger in trupoil. especially a week later with the inner wall mod, may be nice. note to self,if not, go back to limba and see about fine tuning the finish to help with clarity in lows and trebles.
   
  Limba in oil was the perfect combo for magnums at 100-200 hours, but once the driver 'dropped' and settled into it's darker low mid state. the limba proved to be a little too much of a good thing. It matched the driver's natural burned in sound too much and became a little too murky and undefined.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw limba vs limba in linseed, no other variable
   
  interesting but nothing new here for me.
   
  oils, as all finishes do, they reduce dryness and increase high end. even linseed does this here but it doesn't do it well. while the raw sound is surely not refined and ready for use, it has qualities which are very nice and were ruined by the linseed. It takes a finish to refine, but only the right one obviousy.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

limba with truoil vs limba with tuoil and very light poly top coat
  no other variables, blind test. i do not know which is which when i listen
   
   
  this is intersting
  the poly top coat does help to lift up limbas presence and slight darkness. it doesn't do it well of course, but maybe this tells me a light top coat over oil with limba might be nice to make it work with a burned in magnum.
   
  in contrast the oil only limba sound more natural and musical but a little too much low mid center and not enough clarity on top. as I've known while now. note to self, look into a light top coat of something for limba in truoil, maybe a varnish? what other finishes are there that serve as top coats?


----------



## liamstrain

Are these cups you had pre-prepared? I know some of these finishes take quite a long time to cure...


----------



## thelostMIDrange

most of them have been sitting, some are recent. you are right, cure time is a variable, but i have heard cured poly and shelac so when i heard it again, i knew what was what. true they may get better with age, ( ihavent found that to be true though)  but if you heard them you would not be waiting around for it either. I waste enough time as it is.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and these are of course jus tmy own personal findings, to my ears with my tastes as to what a hi hat sounds like or a snare drum. I have a half dozen pressings of led zeppelin II and am familiar with bonham's drum kit. I know when it sounds right to me. But i am very particular. I am not out to diparage shelac of poly. Maybe it can be made to sound right. If so I don't know the trick. There is so much variation with even how these finishes are applied. I suppose there is a way to make them work. I just don't want to invest time there. I'd rather start further down the road with a finish that sound decent no matter how it's applied and further tweek from there.


----------



## dgcrane

I am reading and noted. Thanks Mark. I did apply linseed to the Limba inners you sent me the other day. I am happy with what I am hearing on these.
   
  Darren 
  
  Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> listening to  tiger maple cups with linseed oil. the oil pretty much ruined these. quite frustrated......magic is gone and some new oddities have taken it's place. 6 hours waysted.
> 
> 
> 
> darren, are you reading this....may not want to use that linseed on zebra either.....


----------



## thelostMIDrange

more potential casualties for the finish lottery. these will all get tung oil. If anyone knows that tung oil sounds like garbage, pleaese stop me. Tung oil was the first oil I had planned on trying months ago. Had it in my hand and then remembered a guitar i built years ago that i put tung oil on and it ruined it. Sounded dead. So i put it back on thelf. But the more i listen to this stuff, the more i seem to find that what is good for guitars is opposite sound chambers. Up is down black is white. So maybe tung oil will be just the ticket for these? will see soon enough.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw limba and tiger maple.
   
  these are easily the most natural and musical sounding woods out there imo. The limba is still king for me. Fuller throughout the mids. i have come to believe limba likes to be at 1.25" long. Longer and the sound becomes too full and bloated. Mahogany on the other hand seems to like 1.5" to fill it out and gives it a little more body.
   
  Have to find a complementary finish for both of these.
The soft tiger maple has an air to it like mahogany but none of the odd midrange. very even. great bass, fantastic detail. The emotional conncection with vocals best i've ever heard from a raw wood. Also the most spacious and clear sound i've ever heard from a raw wood. It sounds like a summer breeze blowing through fresh set of laundry on the line. Limba sounds like an old favorite pair of jeans. very comfortable. Not as much detail or space, but in raw wood just as nice bass. My last two finishes seemed to ruin the bass. I need to find one that doesn't. It's raw wood sound is almost perfect. I might go super light on the next oil. tung, and will also try a light coat of truoil because I have been laying that on pretty thick.......Neither of these woods has any defect in it's raw wood listening. Somtehing like rosewoodd and cocobolo for example has 2 or 3 characteristics that stood out as being just not right, too hard, or unatural. Mahogany same thing, but different problems. Even walnut and koa did not sound as natural and musical as these two. I don't know why, as they are not that different in characteristics....but overall from all my listening I can absolutely confirm and say that the light medium to medium dense woods have what it takes to make these drivers shine. Pick one and dial in a finish specifically to it and I think we are there. But i will stick with these two.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw limba vs hond mahog
   
  the only issue i have with mahog is the upper mids, they are harsh and unatural somehow. more harsh than unatural. a comparison to limba really shows this. limba does almost everything mahog does but smoother and more natural. no strident quality anywhere. A touch less upper end detail with limba but worth the price of admission to see the limba show. you guys should start turning this stuff asap.If you choose your boards you can even get the two color thing happening to impress the general public. look see it's exotic !  but unlike the other exotics, this one sounds good.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw mahog vs raw soft tiger maple this time it's the 100 hour v4 driver
   
  mahogany really is a not the best wood, and for me not a good wood for these drivers, especially the upper mids, especially apparent with these unburned drivers. the upper mids are unlistenable. I really couldn't take much more than 10 seconds of it. Part of it is due to the drivers. they are still bright and edgy, apparently in the same area as mahog is because i've never heard mahogany sound this harsh. In contrast, and even with these drivers the maple is at the same time, more detailed and almost no edginess or harshness. Don't know how it pulls off such detail and space without sounding harsh in the upper end.  It really is something that's hard to understand. But it isn't quite as warm or natural as limba, at least in raw form............ After this a/b I really don't think it's worth my time to try and save mahogany. Not when there are two other choices so obviously more suited to these drivers....... direct a/b makes things super apparent vs vaguely 'somethings not right' in the upper mids if you are just listening to the wood with nothing nicer to compare it to. I'm so glad I did this little thread. I'm learning so much by forcing me to have some sort of structure to test and weed out woods and finishes. Note, these are only my impressions, if anyone reading this enjoys mahogany, please continue to do so, especially with a 300 hour magnum they are much nicer than with these early drivers.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

tiger maple raw  vs tiger maple with linseed oil
   
  the finish has had 2 days to cure. the finished sound is nicer in most ways to raw wood. as should be expected. the finish makes the sound. raw woods ususally don't match up to finished wood sounds unless the finish is a poor one. all in all  linseed is ok with this wood. The vocals are nicer on the raw wood though and the vocals was what is most special about this wood. The finish pertty much negated the best part of the raw wood's appeal for me................... I would not be happy if this is as good as i could get this wood to sound. I know it can sound better. There must be a way to improve the overall sound with finish but keep its raw wood magic........ I suspect it would benefit from wetsanding the finish on the interior for example, but will wait to do that because i want to compare it to tung oil soon.........I plan to wetsand all my cups though at some point as I am almost sure that treatment will benefit all finishes. but will have to wait to confirm this......

   
  finishes matter.  these two sounds are quite different. Listening to brian wilson barnaked ladies, the intro vocal sounds like two entirely different rooms. The distance, tone, emotional connection, timbre, e/q, sense of space are quite different. Much superior on raw wood cup.
  I have elimintated all but one variable, the finish. these are exact same woods from the same board. they are sitting right in front of me. This is beyond obvious........ Wood has many problems in this application. They must be systematically dealt with to get natural musical sound. and the art of cup tuning is our tool


----------



## liamstrain

Out of curiosity, how are you ensuring that the two sets you are comparing do not have other sonic differences? e.g. Change in chamber size, amount/thickness of wood along the chamber, etc. Are these CNC? or hand turned?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

if anyone wants to send me raw wood cups to compare and evaluate i would welcome them. I should not have tossed all my exotics and other cups that I made over the last 3 months. It would be fun now to compare them more systematically now that I understand things better. Including the nature of the magnum driver and it's burn in cycle of which I am still learning/waiting


----------



## thelostMIDrange

i make them they are all the same unless noted. most of them are identical though unless they are sleeves. and i am familiar with how little that affects things and take it into consideration.


----------



## liamstrain

Not to belabor the point, but _how_, do you ensure they are the same?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

through my method which is a mix of routers, drill press, and lathe. each used for their speed for various dedicated aspects of construction. But the size of the inner chamber is set by the tool. as is the outer dimension. the length is set by the thickness of my stock, which i choose.


----------



## liamstrain

Thanks for the detail - I'm just trying to determine how much sample variation can be a factor. You're claiming pretty massive differences between cups based on finish, without measurements, so I'm just trying to understand all the elements at play. 
   
  Thank you, btw, for your hard work documenting all this.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I am very conscious of variables and reduce them to one or two real variables. I am the other, which I can never seem to get rid of though.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and i am not _claiming_ these large finish differences. Anyone who would listen to alot of these a/b's especially the wood a/b's and finish a/b's would also hear these differences. Some of the more subtle experiments maybe not so much.


----------



## liamstrain

You are reporting differences that nobody else can effectively test (or has anyway), without measurements or supporting data. Sorry, your word regarding the differences are a claim that must be evaluated with all other evidences. 
   
  You might be right. But as it currently stands, we don't have any way to know and have to take your word for it.
   
  This does not make your work invalid. It is still very interesting. But must be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

understood. this thread will likely not have enough data or graphs here to satisfy left brain longings.


----------



## stratocaster

I am very grateful that you are undertaking this kind of sonic journey, letting people who would never have the chance or willingness to spend the time, money and energy on that kind of research, subjective or not, participate. So far people have been discussing why they prefer wood to plastic or aluminum or vice versa. People just commented on how they felt wood improved the sound of plastic or alu based drivers. As far as I recall, NOTHING has been said about the sonic differences of different woods or different finishes, based on careful and numerous A/B-ing of plain wood species, finishes etc. Companies are selling expensive headphones using exotic and fancy looking woods, thus justifying unbelievable prices. No company of my knowledge is commenting on why they prefer some woods over others, what sound implications different wood choices entail. Not to mention that no company is letting people participate in and follow their research.
  Measurements can give people  'objective' data, but those data may not translate into audio bliss for the individual. AND, if there were nobody to do that sort of experimenting thelostMIDrange is doing there would be no findings, objective or subjective. If he arrives at his, subjective, best setup, people who trust such dedicated and detailed analysis, might follow his track and judge for themselves if they prefer his setup to the one they are using at the moment. I would be one of those people.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

tiger maple v4 120 hours
  tru oil (1 day dry time)vs linseed (3 day dry time)
   
  these are two oils, I would have guessed they sound pretty similar
  I'd be wrong
   
  the linseed bass is many more times more articulate than
  tru oil, which is one dimensional and somehwat murky.
  linseed overall sound is more present and bright. A little too much for this maple, but this gives me an idea to try linseed on limba because these are pretty much the two qualities that are lacking with limba, bass articulation and upper end presence.
   
  regarding these two finishes with maple however leaves me disappointed. Both negate the magic quality of it's raw wood characteristics. Unless things change with further dry time and/or inner wall wet sandind, I say these two oils will not be a final finish choice for maple.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

thanks strato. And I am trying to be somewhat 'objective' about this. But not so much that I forget what I believe music should sound like, which is why I stated the mission statement in post 1. To give an idea as to what I feel music should shound like. Everyone is biased in that they are an individual. But when it comes to things like harsh upper midrange, bass articulation, naturalness of sound, truness of instruments, instrument separation, murkiness, warm, dark, edgy etc. I think these are objective terms and am confident 99% of the people would agree with me when I use them in these posts. Some of the other stuff like 'sounds like an old pair of jeans' etc is quite subjective and is more for fun and to give an idea of what a wood makes me feel like because I think that's important, but it is more subjective. And my general approach to all this and implicit attittude towards life is right brained, emotional and intuitive. I am not a left brain dominant graph or tech oriented guy. One is not greater than the other but they are totally different attitudes.
   
  But I am confident if any would could participate in these listening sessions they would be just as blown away as I am in what I am finding, and have been finding fro a month or two now. And I see ahead so much more than can be found. I'd say we are at page 2 of the cup tuning story...........or page 6 actually


----------



## stratocaster

I am most interested in your impressions on finishes, especially inner wall finishes. I have never used oils, waxes or laquers on inner walls of my wood shells. I only applied the stuff outside, mostly for aesthetic reasons I must admit.
  It is obvious that the material of the shell is effecting the sound. Anybody who has tried the same drivers in wood and alu cups can report on that. The wall surface should have an effect too. If you do not cover it with any substance, you will still have the sound waves hitting different surfaces, causing all sorts of sound changes. Subtle, I would think, but they should still be there. Now, learning more about sound implications of different finishes, the synergy with certain woods, comprehensible and repeatable methods of applying the coating, etc. are all very interesting topics I would like to learn more about. Nobody has ever put as much work and energy into this as you already have. Chapeau, man!


----------



## thelostMIDrange

strato seems to be one of the few who seems to get what' i'm trying to do here.............finishes will indeed be the most researched area for me from here on out. I feel I have the most synergystic woods, learned how to make the cups quickly, but finishes is what will make this reference class. If you just crank out limba cups with no attention to getting the finish to jive, you will have upper middle class grado music. Which is great. But I didn't go down this path to settle for that...........and to that end, the universe seemed to gather its energy into a fine focus this morning because I stumbled on the absolute perfect rubber material for the driver isolation idea. Comes in 1/16" and 1/8", This will be epoxyed in between either two pieces of limba or a limba/maple hybrid.


----------



## t-crisis

I have a rather strange question... What did it take for you guys (particularly lostMIDrange and Stratocaster) to become so good at noticing the extremely fine details each cup uniquely presents? I have spent a lot of time with music, perhaps not so much with hi-fi equipment because for a long time I had no idea this world of headphones existed, and I am familiar with most of my music. However, it seems as though the more I listen to my favorite songs the less I notice the small details and the more normal they sound...
  Now when I A/B my modded SR80s with my Magnums, I can definitely pick out the differences but it seems as though you guys can describe changes in sound (not to mention that the comparisons you are making are between two very similar wood cups) that I have never even heard of or even have the capability of picking up.
   
  Is it something that just takes time, or is it a natural talent?
   
  Sorry to veer off, but I am just amazed at the small details you have been able to point out and I would like to be able to do the same.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I can't speak for strato, but the nature of music sound has been my main passion since I was ten years old (42 now) when I got my first cheap technics linear drive turntable. I have been fascinated by it ever since, developed a personal philosophy around it, almost a religion. I think the history of sound and it's evolution tells us alot about the nature of society. The tube days, golden era of audio, turntables, the invention of the cd player and the digital revolution, it's super dynamic range and stripping away of midrange in the name of pseudo 'clarity', and now what seems to be a return full circle to an interest in more organic, analog midrange oriented sounds with renewed interest in the general population for turntables, analog and tap recording of music in the studio etc. Music and it's sound also says something about the tendency towards dehumanizing qualities within a culture. I truly believe alot of people really do not know what a natural sound is anymore. I believe human beings are not all the same in their human'ess and ability to feel and be in touch with 'reality' for lack of a better word. The culture puts alot of pressure on people to become machinelike to serve the cultures goals.....................Plus my pop was into it. He always had mcintosh gear and acoustic research speakers and that type of gear has a magical quality to it. A kind of midrange that blooms and has emotional detail, not so much super clarity for the sake of clarity, but midrange clarity and naturalness. And this is one of the hardest things to achieve in audio, Just creating a flat sounding sound with bass and treble extension is easier to achive imo, but it doesn't do music justice because the midrange is where the emotional connection is made......so I have that interest, am a woodworker as a profession and have a BA in psychology. In a way this is my calling. I was destined to be a cup tuner !


----------



## t-crisis

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> I can't speak for strato, but the nature of music sound has been my main passion since I was ten years old (42 now) when I got my first cheap technics linear drive turntable. I have been fascinated by it ever since, developed a personal philosophy around it, almost a religion. I think the history of sound and it's evolution tells us alot about the nature of society. The tube days, golden era of audio, turntables, the invention of the cd player and the digital revolution, it's super dynamic range and stripping away of midrange in the name of pseudo 'clarity', and now what seems to be a return full circle to an interest in more organic, analog midrange oriented sounds with renewed interest in the general population for turntables, analog and tap recording of music in the studio etc. Music and it's sound also says something about the tendency towards dehumanizing qualities within a culture. I truly believe alot of people really do not know what a natural sound is anymore. I believe human beings are not all the same in their human'ess and ability to feel and be in touch with 'reality' for lack of a better word. The culture puts alot of pressure on people to become machinelike to serve the cultures goals.....................Plus my pop was into it. He always had mcintosh gear and acoustic research speakers and that type of gear has a magical quality to it. A kind of midrange that blooms and has emotional detail, not so much super clarity for the sake of clarity, but midrange clarity and naturalness. And this is one of the hardest things to achieve in audio, Just creating a flat sounding sound with bass and treble extension is easier to achive imo, but it doesn't do music justice because the midrange is where the emotional connection is made......so I have that interest, am a woodworker as a profession and have a BA in psychology. In a way this is my calling.* I was destined to be a cup tuner !*


 

 That is awesome. I only wish I had the same level of passion for and understanding of music as you do. 
   
  Haha I like that last part especially


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I don't recall ever wishing to have this passion, I just follow and listen to the little man inside.  I'm sure you have a passion and natural talent for something. You just have to be quiet and listen. Listening is an art that can be developed. Listening to music, others, the little man inside etc it's all the same skill. It's a kind of meditation. quiet the big man (ego) thoughts, and the little man can be heard. He only whispers.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I have settled on 2 woods, limba  and tiger maple. Starting to pull out of scrutinization mode, no more single cup testing, will have to commit to a finish and make a full set.
   
  Am building a set in limba with the 1/16" rubber driver isolation gasket now.......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I just do not understand how these things work.....I spent some time making some cups with a rubber ring. I also made them a little bigger, so the thickness of the walls is more. they are longer too...so 3 different variables here. I will have to make a set of the smaller with thinner walls to figure out if that rubber ring is responsible, but the larger set with the ring sound dead compared to the smaller which are so sweet. Much more alive, more delicate, nuance all of it. the set with the ring have a very full sound but not nearly as much definition or articulation. They are entirely different sounds. Same basic e/q but apart from that, they are not even similar....I just do not understand how these small things can make such a big difference.....It's the same wood. no finish. I tested these with both drivers, not one...The small set with the thin walls is just about perfect in every way. You might think the longer bigger set with the thicker walls would have more bass and better bass articulation. totally opposite. the little ones are sweet in the bass, very articulate and weighty.
   
  Part of me wants to learn more and get a handle on these things and another part says, are you masochistic, how could things be improved over these smaller limba cups? But at the very least, the world should know all these things matter a great deal. I will be sending these to sluker and maybe some others so at least i am not the only one on the planet that knows about these things. Maybe others will believe me after a 2nd more respected member verifies that these things matter. But I will make a set of the smaller cups with the ribber ring tonight. If it proves that the rubber ring is responsible for the dead sound, that would mean we want the cup to vibrate which just doesn't make sense but that must be the case. Really the same thing if it turns out it's the extra thickness that is deadnening the sound......the walls of the smaller cups are quite thin maybe 1/16 to and 1/8. the walls of the larger cup are closer to 1/4 maybe 3/16


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## liamstrain

I wonder if the thinner walls are not just reflecting, but also resonating (like an instrument). Which would explain why the rubber isolation was deadening the effect. Would also explain more the reasons why finish has such an effect - we know, for instance, that the type and thickness of varnish can significantly affect the resonance of a violin...


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## thelostMIDrange

YES YES YES YES YES..............I am coming to that exact conclusion ! this is an absolute revelation to me.I did everything wrong on that last cup. I added the rubber ring, deadened the sound, i made the walls thicker deadened the sound some more !
   
  WE WANT THE CUP TO VIBRATE
   
  WE WANT THE CUP TO VIBRATE SYMPATHETICALLY
   
  THIS IS WHY ALL TEH FINISHES I'VE BEEN PUTTING ON RUIN THE SOUND
   
  THE WALLS HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN THICKNESS AND THE FINISH NEEDS TO ALLOW THE CUP TO VIBRATE LIKE IT DOES IN RAW FORM
   
  THIS IS A MINDBLOWER TO ME
   
  THANK YOU LIAMSTRAM, I WAS TALKING THIS OVER WITH MY WIFE BEFORE I READ YOUR POST AND CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION. IT'S STRANGE HOW WHEN I RETURNED
   
  TO THE COMPUTER YOU SUGGESTED THE SAME THING
   
  THE CAPS ARE HERE FOR A REASON. THIS IS LIKE DISCOVERING THE EARTH IS ROUND AND NOT FLAT !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

YES ON THE FINISH TOO. NOW ALL WE NEED TO DO IS FOCUS ON THE WALL GEOMOMETRY AND THE FINISH.
  I THINK THE OILS I'VE BEEN USING ARE ALL WRONG. AT LEAST ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CUP, I DON'T KNOW WHAT FINISH WILL GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. YOU SAY VARNISH IS WHAT THEY USE ON VIOLINS SO I GUESS THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO TRY.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I think I'm going to search out a violin maker here in seattle and have him help me finish the cups............


----------



## liamstrain

very thin varnish. there have been murders over the family varnish recipes over the centuries...
   
  I've been trying to sketch out the required geometries, but I keep defaulting to backloaded horn speaker designs, which need to accomplish something else. I'll have to ponder.
   
  Has anyone published the various specs for the grado drivers (Fs, Vas, Q values, etc.) They may not be as relevant in a headphone, but I'm working with what I know.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

it seems, headphone cups are instruments. they are part of the vibration. they should be moving with the music. they don't just hold the driver in place. they are absolutely key to getting musical sounds. they are very delicate. i noticed just when i coved in the walls of my last set things seemed to change. i only changed it by a 1/16 or so in thinckness but when i handle the cups it's very apparant they are thinner, very delicate feeling compared to the cups ive been making. that last big set of cups was the first time i made the walls quite that thick. this just goes to show it's ok to make mistakes because they teach you what not to do, and by doing the opposite, teach you what to do ! i love it . i'm so excited !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

i am suspecting that i want the walls to vary in thickness because if you look at my smaller cups, there is a cove towards the middle, it's quite thin at that point.....and these cups really transfer delicate nuance moreso than any other cup i've made......i wonder if it's thinner do i then want to change the length of the the overall cup?


----------



## liamstrain

back loaded horns also use the resonant frequencies to amplify and direct sound, so in that respect, they are not entirely dissimilar. Having an idea of what the nature of the sound waves a specific driver produces, can only help in fine tuning the size and shape of the cups.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

laim don't go i need your left brain to help me figure this out.......i don't know anything about Q etc....please ponder !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

please read what i wrote about that 'cove' which is just an indentation in the middle of the cup. where you see it dive in means the thickness there is thinner because the inside diameter is straight and the same. wherever you see a cove, that is where it's thinner.
   
   
  also
  i'm thinking the thinner the walls get, the longer i want the cup to be....does that have any correlation in your mind?


----------



## sluker

Absolutely,
  Think total volume of air in the cup, although it is open it is still the amount of air available for the magnet to move towards the film (rice paper) which creates the sound wave.


----------



## liamstrain

I'll have to think about this - it would be very easy to end up with some pretty dramatic spikes in resonance (honking/pipe-organ pitching). And that is something we can avoid with a little planning...


----------



## thelostMIDrange

well i can tell you from listening to that cup in teh picture, it's about as perfect a sound i've ever gotten, the only thing that may be missing is a touch of fullness.....and in my experiments it seemed that whenever i lengthened the cup, even by just a 1/4" it made the sound fuller. Now with the thicker walls i was using, it was a little too full sounding with the limba so i kept it at 1.25" but now with the thinner walls in the middle there,  i think i want to go back to 1.5" with the limba, i guess giving more internal air volume. I'm pretty certain that will be a sweet spot for this geometry and wood anyway....i will make it tomorrow.......


----------



## liamstrain

Cool - keep us posted. I'll see if i can find some time to research a bit as well. Have a few things on the fire currently - so we'll see what happens.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

very excited over here !   i feel like i've been driving on 40 miles of bad road and see a nice grassy clearing up ahead !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

this also explains why the hf2 with it's endcap has that tight sound i mentioned in a past post. it is a kind of deadening feeling....i instantly recognized that quality when i put an end cap on a cup. and even more so when i compared it to a cup with no endcap.......turns out, we want the cup to move....i never would have thought this....i was trying to deaden it all this time with finish..........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

i think it's time to go head first into violin varnish education
   
http://www.gussetviolins.com/varnish.htm


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and then we need to start thinking about the way the gimbal attaches. maybe _oversize_ the holes ever so slightly so that the gimbal doesn not prevent the cup from vibrating....again, i've been _undersizing_ my holes to try and use the gimbal to keep the cup from vibrating....i suspect this was backwards thinking as well.........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I've been listening to these coved cups more, and they are almost perfect. a little fuller which should happen tomorrow with the extra length and i think that will be the end of this......looking back, about the only thing i got right was the wood choice. I messed up the finish, the wall thickness, the way the gimbal attaches.........but all that matters is that we made it.......and i am almost certain, all we want for a finish is a very light non invasive violin type finish and these will be reference quaility...even what i'm listening to now in raw wood is damn near perfect. It's natural, even, instuments are true, bass is articulate and weighty, upper end is smooth midrange is not strident in the least, there is a ton of nuance and dynamics, totally fatigue free, the mids have just the right amount of air but still have some umph to them......I can't believe it......thanks to everyone who has helped me organize these things and guide the search. I really feel these are reference quality $1000 headphones at this point. I would not trade them for top of the line grado with those end caps that's for sure.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

they don't look like much though !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

http://www.violins.ca/varnish/violin_varnish_recipes.html
http://www.leroydouglasviolins.com/varnish.htm
http://www.violins.on.ca/varnish.html
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17652
http://www.instrumentmaking.keithhillharpsichords.com/hillviolinvarnish.html


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## t-crisis

Does this mean you are going to reconsider the importance of mounting the drivers properly? It makes sense to me that if you're looking to make the cup vibrate, you'd want the vibrations of the driver to contribute... maybe not


----------



## thelostMIDrange

'properly' ?  they are snug tight as usual. I will not be changing a thing. there is nothing missing. the story is over for me. It only took 9 pages. back to life for me


----------



## t-crisis

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> 'properly' ?  they are snug tight as usual. I will not be changing a thing. there is nothing missing. the story is over for me. It only took 9 pages. back to life for me


 


  I forgot you make your own cups to fit the way you want them to... As for me, the magnum drivers have to be held in place by little strips of electric tape stacked on top of each other to make it fit snug in the cup.  Good/bad?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

if it sounds good, it is good.


----------



## stratocaster

Very interesting and promising, Mid. You might have come up with something big.
  I was thinking of another possible way to go. What about trying a new cup design? Larger diameter, HE-5-like, Magnum drivers mounted in a  sort of baffle, allowing non-Grado pads to be used.


----------



## liamstrain

I'd be cautious of oversized holes for the gimbals. You might end up with rattling. Maybe a silicone or rubber bearing epoxied inside?


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## thelostMIDrange

good idea.....by oversized, I guess I really just meant, not tight, as I had been doing. Just so long as the pins are not putting pressure and squeezing the cup, which is exactly what I'd been doing. I even didn't drill the pin holes all the way through, so that the end of teh pin would run into the wood, thinking this would squeeze the cup and keep it from 'resonating'....wow was i wrong on that one !
   
   
   
  strato, this is huge !  Everything just fell into place. The sounds I'm hearing sound right in every way. When I think of this compared to a sennheiser or beyer dynamic just for two examples I'm familiar with this is so much more nuanced and natural. And these handle everything, every genre I've played through them sound the best I've ever had on my head. It's a delicate balance we have here. Once things get allligned, it is really something. I will make a set for you. Now it's easy to replicate, I know exactly how the cup needs to be, paying special attention when I make them to the geometry (shape and thickness of the walls).............Still need to find that violin finish so as not to ruin what we've got here though. I am confident that can be done, maybe not on the first try. But whatever it is, it will be super thin, and will need full cure time. Imay send a raw set so, to hear it in raw form is pretty special. I've never had a raw wood do these things....it was all about the geometry..all this time i never gave that it's due, never really thought that would have any affect !


----------



## thelostMIDrange

strato, frankly if you heard this, you may not being theorizing, but while I'm a little tired, I would be open to making these larger....so are you saying everything larger , but the same geometry and wall thickness the same?
   
  I could make the whole thing 1/4" bigger on the inside chamber for example and still have the same wall geometry...........This would be needed actually to really fit a grado headband perfectly, because as now, with the cove, the diameter where the gimbal mounts is a touch smaller....which happend to work perfect for my little sony 7502 band, but if anyone wanted these for a grado, they'd have to be made a bit larger and/or the gimbals would have to be extended with sluker's shrink wrap method...........
   
  I'm just thinking what in this sound I would want more of or different and really nothing is coming to me......so experiementing more right now beyond this may not be the best use of my time.....but keep ideas coming, I am open.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and for those familiar with grado rs, there is some of that vibe here, but more nuance and delicacy, and far more natural due to the limba. No annoying upper mid odditites and harshness from the mahogany. Bass is nicer as well. Mids are not super airy as rs series was to my ears, which was one of my main complaints about them, but still enough air throughout the mids to be pleasing..it's just the right balance of things...these magnums really do not sound like an hf 2 anymore either, now that they are in these coved cups.....I have come to realize that is a stiff sound....The difference between stiff and alive is hard to explain to by words. But when people hear it they will know what I mean.


----------



## stratocaster

Mid, that is just great to hear. I am really happy to read about you finally being content with the sound and performance of your setup. Commitment to reaching an aim a person firmly believes they can achieve eventually pays out. As you know I am trusting your expertise on what you are doing and hearing. It is really unbelievably generous of you to be willing to let me have a "copy" of your setup.
  As for my idea of a larger cup I did not mean to suggest you should re-think your way. It was more of an idea I have been entertaining for quite some time now. I guess this could be a route for me to take in order to find out if these fantastic drivers could perform stunningly in another "environment", thereby also making use of more comfortable (leather) pads as well. I am thinking of a kind of larger ear cup, not limited by any Grado design,  maybe up to the size of Audezes or similar, mounting the Magnums in the center of a baffle. Of course I would have to make larger (wooden) gimbals to fit or use other headbands that could fit. This may not happen in the near future, but I will definitely try it one day.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

the only thing i worry about is upsetting the balance here....it does seem pretty delicate...once you start increasing the size of the chamber, I suspect things will change, possibly for the better, but just can't imagine it.....or maybe once the diameter is increased, the length can be readjuststed to accomodate.......I plan on making a set for symphones as well after a finish is found. after all that was the point, to really soak the driver for everything. I really feel this has been accomplished.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

made a couple different sized cups today. these are different woods but show the size and cove variation. All the cups I make from now are limba btw.
   
   
  short story, I lost the sound when I went to the longer length....the walls are also a touch thicker as can be seen in pic - notice cove is not as deep, so I will pare them down real thin and see if the magic comes back, if so, I will know it's the wall thickness that is critical and if the sound doesn't come back I will know it is the length that is killing it....In any case, I can say this is a super delicate balancing act.................Popped the shorty's back in and whamo, beautiful delicate sounds with weighty tight bass. Why the smaller cups give such nice lows , and the nuance and liveliness, is beyond me, but at this point, I just have to accept what I hear and not try and understand the possible logic behind it..........I may just stick with the 1.25" and call it a day unless these next alterations reveal something new


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I've experience some interesting things in my life, but this is right there at the top of the list........I pared down the walls to the identical thickness. A touch under 1/8" at shallowest point, getting a little closer in sound to each other, but the longer cups just do not have 'it'. Yes, as expected is fills out the sound and gives body, but the magic is not there......And not only that, it literally tunes the sound, snare drums just for one example are quite different in both cups....more true and natural in the smaller cups.......So only other thing I can think of that is different here is the fit of the drivers....the smaller cups have a loose snug fit. the drivers stay in on their own but if jostled enough, might come loose....the bigger cups have a much tighter fit. I will loosen that fit and also pare down the walls to absolute minimum just to make sure I've done all I can to squeeze out the magic of the larger cups, but it's looking more and more like I know what size these things want to be


----------



## thelostMIDrange

If on a deserted island, still take the small cups with me...........loosened up the driver fit and pared down walls very thin. Still no magic, I think the length is doing something here. It makes the sound a little fuller but it's not even a musical fullness, and it's at the expense of atmosphere and instrument truness. .........these things are simply amazing to experience. I never would think these details would have any affect but I can't deny what I'm hearing, and am very glad to have found a wood, a size, a shape and a driver to have synergy.....Now just need a thin violin varnish recipe............


----------



## thelostMIDrange

got some new black v4's today. popped them in the magic cups with zero break in - from the first chord on - sweetness !   Never heard this from my older cups when I popped in fresh drivers......I'll bet these cups will make grado drivers sing.  the art of cup tuning is where it's at.


----------



## bubuna

I love what your doing MID!  Was going to purchase wood cups on looks alone but like you said it's the sound that matters


----------



## stratocaster

Seems that this is a delicate thing for sure and that going wider, I mean really wider, in diameter would totally change everything. Let alone the changes that pad variations, materials and depths would bring along. Would likely be a lottery win to make that setup sing, I am afraid. Still, I will never know before trying it. Damn modding addiction. But it is this that keeps the search for blissful sound going.


----------



## sluker

Stratocaster,
  I already mentioned it to thelostmidrange but why not try just increasing the diameter of the pad lip without changing anything else in the cup design. I have the HiFiman and the Dennon pads and I understand the Beyer pads are similarly sized (but lack a screen). The lip diameter would need to be approximately 10 cm and perhaps slightly thinner at the outer edge to make slipping the pads on and off easier.
  This would allow for pad rolling with the leather pads. However, having tried the Grado G-cush and the fake G-cush pads I am not sure these drivers will perform as well in larger diameter ear chambers.
  But it would be worth a try because this would greatly improve the comfort and if properly tuned could also positively impact the soundstage.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

bubina, you're right, i certainly wouldn't buy on looks alone, but here's proof you can have your cake and eat it too.....these are still raw unfinished wood and believe it or not, these sound better than they look !
   

   

  A little more finish sanding and if these pass the listening tests, will be off to strato for some sonic scrutinization. Warning, you may never look at your un-tuned cups the same way again !  And that's really how tuned cups sound. They sound tuned. Tuned out are all the things that didn't sound 'right' and tuned in everything that does...that's the feeling I get when I listen to these. they just sound 'right'.


----------



## stratocaster

Mid, they do look awesome for sure. Taking into consideration how much went into the design and tuning I appreciate your kindness and enthusiasm to share the joy you are experiencing while listening to them with me even more. Can't wait to hear them.
   
  @sluker and a little off topic: 
 I guess increasing the diameter of the pad lip only would not do the trick. That would probably just boost the treble, while the mids will be left recessed. Similar to the sound you get when you put on G-cushs without distancers. I think increasing the cup diameter and working on the air flow by either limiting or increasing it, trying out damping etc. would be the things I would like to try out. Another option would be using the regular cup design together with wooden distancers which would then have to have the increased pad lid diameter. That would be easiest to try out.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

Been trying to rationalize and convince myself that 1.5" long limba is fine, I mean more is better right? It's just a little 1/4" different than 1.25" Well I made three sets at the 1.5" and absolutely came to the conclusion that it is the wrong length for this wood in this diameter. It has to be 1 13/16 + or - 1/16" but no more......This is cup tuning. Get one duck out of the row and it all falls to pieces. With that wood and diameter it needs the other two ducks to walk in a particular way, namely 1.25" long and with that cove wall geometry. It is those 4 variables that = magical sound. No idea why, I'm sure there is some technical and acoustical physics behind it but it is what it is.


----------



## liamstrain

My best guess is that the 1.25 must be close to a harmonic frequency length, and once you go past it, you are no longer in that sweet spot - until you got up to the next harmonic...  (too short would be the same problem).
   
  But without knowing the Thiele/Small numbers on the driver, it's hard to know for sure what that distance ideally would be. 
   
  There are a few other possibilities - mass differences, standing waves (as you mention), as well as sample variation corrections - mechanical fit, and variable density in the wood...
   
  But I think, if our working hypothesis is that the cup is acting as a resonant instrument (a la violin), then I think getting out of the harmonic length is the most likely.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> Been trying to rationalize and convince myself that 1.5" long limba is fine, I mean more is better right? It's just a little 1/4" different than 1.25" Well I made three sets at the 1.5" and absolutely came to the conclusion that it is the wrong length for this wood in this diameter. It has to be 1 1/4 or there's no magic. It may be possible to vary 1/16" but no more......This is cup tuning. Get one duck out of the row and it all falls to pieces. With that wood and diameter it needs the other two ducks to walk in a particular way, namely 1.25" long and with that cove wall geometry. It is those 4 variables that = magical sound. No idea why, I'm sure there is some technical and acoustical physics behind it but it is what it is.


 
   
  I've read this thread with great interest and have thought about your findings, I have absolutely no knowledge, but was pondering over your post above; Could it be due to acoustic resonance? That is my guess after looking up the wikipedia article: Acoustic Resonance (wiki)
   
  As you have reported, what happens behind the driver in terms of material, dimensions, etc. has a great impact on what eventually reaches your ears. The length of the cup will probably increase or decrease the resonance of the cup (which is the case is difficult to say) and will affect the reflection of sound waves. If my guess is correct, wouldn't doubling the distance (driver <-> end of cup) get similar results (in theory)? Anybody want to chime in and shoot this idea down?


----------



## liamstrain

Quote: 





joe presto said:


> I've read this thread with great interest and have thought about your findings, I have absolutely no knowledge, but was pondering over your post above; Could it be due to acoustic resonance? That is my guess after looking up the wikipedia article: Acoustic Resonance (wiki)
> 
> If my guess is correct, wouldn't doubling the distance (driver <-> end of cup) get similar results (in theory)? Anybody want to chime in and shoot this idea down?


 

 See above yours. 
   
  Yes, that would roughly get you to the next harmonic value, and *should* cause the same kind of resonance (albeit with longer waves, so a lot more bass energy, would be my guess).


----------



## sluker

That's interesting, so what you are saying is that once you identify the "sweet spot" doubling the length of the chamber would result in the same sweet spot with increased volume resulting in more bass (due to greater air movement).
  Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> See above yours.
> 
> Yes, that would roughly get you to the next harmonic value, and *should* cause the same kind of resonance (albeit with longer waves, so a lot more bass energy, would be my guess).


----------



## liamstrain

more air movement, and moving to a longer wavelength harmonic (e.g. going from 1/8th wave to 1/4 wave)... that's the theory anyway. But do you really want 2.5 inch cans?


----------



## t-crisis

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> more air movement, and moving to a longer wavelength harmonic (e.g. going from 1/8th wave to 1/4 wave)... that's the theory anyway. But do you really want 2.5 inch cans?


 

  
  But all the notes have a different frequency and therefore a different wavelength, so your harmonics would only come from one note... right? That and the sound is coming out the back of the can so any sound wave you excite in that can is going to blow out the other side unless there is a lip or you don't mind others hearing the same intensity of sound you're hearing.
   
  Right?


----------



## liamstrain

I wondered about the same thing, but I believe the free air resonant frequency of the driver is the key - not so much the specific frequencies of the notes played through it. 
   
  Fs (resonant freq of driver ) = 1 over 2pi x sqrt (Cms (stiffness of driver suspension in meters per newton) x Mms (mass of the diaphragm/coil including acoustic load in kilograms)


----------



## sluker

Hey,
  No one told me there would be math.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

lot's of actvitiy here since I last visited. I haven't read through you're guys ideas yet, because I've been busy in the lab and want to report my findings wihtout any bias from your idea, which I value highly, but just want to get these findings 'on paper'.......The 1.5" length, with this particular i.d. of 1.5" is a 'dog'. Not a total dog, I mean it sound fine, and likely as good as most cups out there, but once you drop down to 1.25 or even 1 1/8" the magic comes and its multiples better sound. It's not, eh,m a little nicer....it's yes ! that's what I want......the bass is muscular and musical and the snare drums move from an odd untrue honky sound to a snap and very natural sound. Vocals are true, dynamics everything........So, I made 4 sets, 1 1/8" 1 1/4"
  1 3/8" and 1.5" and just within that narrow range you can hear it move from real nice, maybe a touch light in bass, to perfect to a little odd in the upper mids (snare) and not a tight bass tojust plain not right......
   
  and to budding cup tuners, I can offer this simple technique for dialing in the length of your cup. Let's assume the other variable of i.d. is fixed dues to some other tool or asthetic requirement and you have chosen your outer detail and therefore wall thickness..... So once you have those two, and you are making cups with different lengths, and you will have to do this, this is part of cup tuning. just listen to the bass drum kick, bass guitar and snare drum on several recordings you are well familiar with. This gives you an easy 3 point plan to dial in the length of low low mid high mid....once you get these to sound right, it seems like everything else follows, vocals etc......
   
  So for the other 2 dimensions of i.d. and wall thickness, I have three lengths that work with slightly different shades of 'right'....1 1/8", 1 1/4"  and 1/3/8" . the last being my least favorite and bordering on 'not right'....
   
  But even within that narrow window one can hear differences.....although they get slight....the difference of 1.5" is much different.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

Ok I read your posts...very interesting. I can offer this little tidbit to see if it helps us, once you go past 1 3/8" the whole sound just starts to sound honky or oddly boxy and cloudy. everything starts to sound wrong, vocals, snare drums etc.bass becomes weak and undefined....so something is surely going on.....I also wonder about that little ridge on the end of the cup, When I make these I just sort of 'eyeball' where to put that and it usually ends up at 1/4" to 3/8" thick. I wonder if that is affecting things other than the rigidity of the cup, as the thicker it gets, the more mass there is towards the end of the cup, but I also wonder about the sound waves inside as it comes up against that little ridge.....it it is further back (shorter lip thickness) would that do anything substatntial  i wonder......
   
  but as far as the length, I think it's safe to assume my ears found the sweet spot so maybe calculus is not required here....but it does lend suport to my hearing and is nice to know there may be some physics behind it and i'm not hallucinating.


----------



## liamstrain

I think what we are wondering is if you go WAY past 1.5, to 2.25 or 2.5, if things start to clear up again. That would answer some questions about what is going on...  but that's also both aesthetically and usability wise challenging (not to mention eating up a lot of wood).


----------



## stratocaster

Mid, I just checked the length of the olive cups I prefer. Guess what! 28.5mm --> 1.122". Holy s...!


----------



## thelostMIDrange

ok, now what about inside diameter and exit hole diameter?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

so 1.122 = about 1 1/8" correct. I've been wavering between that and the 1 1/4" set...seems like the lows are a touch more muscular on the longer set but the upper mids not as nice, and the other way around on the smaller 1 1/8 set. So , my final size may be in between !  wow this is 'nitty gritty' now.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

btw, would have been nice if somebody knew this a couple months ago, would have saved me from inhaling several lb's of limba sawdust to find out for myself..
   
   
  thinking back, all my findings were either by accident or trial and error
   
  the limba wood was lying on the shop floor in the corner from a past guitar buid (although I also tried a dozen or more other woods as well)
  the length of cup was accidental. I was building 1.5" cups and the wood had a defect towards the end, so I cut it out and resulted in 1.25"
  the inner wall thickness came to me because i thought it would look nice if i pared down the end detail into a cove
  and my favorite sony headband was listed on craigslist locally. he had 3 for sale.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

plus you guys don't need to wonder if you doubled that 1 1/8"   to 2 1/4" (doubled the harmonic frequency) if the results would be 'better'......if you heard these cups, you would not imagine there would be a nicer low end imo. how can this low end come out of such small cups was my initial puzzlement.....but my ears have never lied to me. But it does get hard to trust them sometimes when'out on a limb' by one'self


----------



## stratocaster

And you can kill two birds with one stone. Blissful sound and comfort through smaller/lighter cups


----------



## thelostMIDrange

yes, plus, we look less dorky without the longer cups making us look like princess leah


----------



## liamstrain

that's a really unfortunate picture of that model...


----------



## thelostMIDrange

you're right, she is cuter. it was the first result in my google search though .


----------



## thelostMIDrange

well I had an interesting afternoon....dear diary...... down to my local mumberyard for the weekly limba purchase. and who do I bump into but bil daly of daly finish, owner of one of the oldest paint anf finish stores here in seattle, and we had a very interesting half hour chat about violin finish, marketing BS, and other misc anecdotes ranging from a violin that came into him for a refinihs that was colored by chinese pigblood of which he had a hard time matching no surprise, to the marketing voodoo used by finish makers and suppliers, or which he is one of. He is an old timer and maybe the most knowledgable guy in my town regarding this stuff. It seemed as if he may not have much more time around here, as he was telling me several trade secrets to the myth of il pentration to encourage consumers to feel the need to put extra layers of material on thier projects to the topic at hand, violin finish. I inquired about belden violin finish, which is a common all in one solution and he pointed me towards a product which is the same thing except it costs 75% less and only difference is it has different alcohols used to speed up drying time. We opened up both products and did a smell test, he went over how to apply, drying times, whether of not another final finish is needed over top, buffing requirements etc.....regarding violin finishes, of which he seemed quite knowledgable andinterested in, apparently there is alot of folklore around it and some of the components are more for the visual enhancement not fou sound considerations, so he quickly learned i am a sound-first guy and directed me to what he felt would be the simplest, cheapest, leas invasive finish for my project. It's actually just a clear sanding sealer, a 'shelac', as is the belden violin varnish......he went into how the words shelac, varnish, poly etc are just words, and depending on the product can be the same thing. When he imports his custom made finish to japan for example they require a certain product to be labeled a shelac because they are very precise while here, the same product is labeled a poly etc........So short story, I have a finish and the correct application method. One day wait after first coat, 4 hours every one after and a week dry time for final cure....along with Liamstrain, it's nice to meet and get infro from guys who 'know their stuff' because it takes some of the voodoo out of it and reduces it down to basics, chemical, physics, acoustics etc and at bottom, that's really all this is. But for a right brainer like myself, it's magic. When i hear something and have no idea how it was achieved, it may as well be.....So now I know to wait a week with this particular finish before I listen and he emphasized that the sound will be dramatically different if listened to before the one week cure time........So wil be giving it a shot on the 'magic cups' I have fashioned. Should be good ! If not, there are a couple other 'varnish' ideas he gave me which may lead to other options.......Oh I also pointed to a can of 'shelac' and I told him I tried that one..Turns out that shelac had a wax mixed in with it..It's not labeled anywhere on the can though...Now I know why that one didn't sound good.....
   
  And back to the limba. Had an interesting chat with lumbyard rep and come to find out, limba is actually quite hard to come by in most parts of the world. I always assumed it was easy because everytime i go in there (crosscut hardwoods) the seemed to always have plenty of stock. So if any turner would like to get into the wood and doesn't have access, I'd be happy to box some up and send it out. Shipping wood is not the cheapest thing to ship, but I think it is worth it. I  pay $11/bd ft.  btw for the material itself. I get 8/4 (2") and surface it down to 1 1/4" or I can leave it in rough 8/4 form if preferred........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

attn. LIAMSTRAM. Do you think that little ridge towards the bottom end of this cup has any real affect on the sound (waves) compared to if that were not there...meaning if the inside cylinder was totally straight and smooth from end to end would it be any different........I like to have that ridge to hold the grill mesh and it gives more width to the end profile. But if it's affecting sound I will have to remove it.......Would love to know your thoughts and possible theories as to it's importance.......thanks in advance


----------



## liamstrain

ultimately, I do not think that ridge affects much - I think it is the total length that is important. It might be an interesting test to see though. I would think maybe the differing wood thicknesses *could* have some effect - but I think less of one that the other geometries you've worked out.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

good to know. thanks much.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

had a chance to spend some time with 1 1/8" and 1 1/4"     will be going with 1 3/16"
   
  Couldn't be more pleased with what I'm hearing. It's been a long road.
  Wrapping up what we've found out. Sort of a summary of my 100's of hours of labor:
   
  all wood has problems as a sound chamber, some more than others. Additionally, they all sound different, have different character. Generally I have found soft woods to not have enough attack and solidity in the sound, hard woods tend to be hard sounding and often strident in some area (s). The middle woods work best, meaning medium density. Limba is surely my favorite.
   
  The geometry of the cup is as much or more important than the wood species. Even less than perfect woods would benefit from being shaped to a harmonious geometry. Getting the length right being most important followed by making the cup as resonant as possible by paring down the thickness of the chamber walls to 1/8" or less for at least the bulk or middle section of the chamber. The ends need to be beefier to house the driver and to accomodate some sort of decorative end detail, but whenever possible, I'd keep it minimal and non-ostentatious to keep the mass to a minimum. The more resonant the cup, the more alive and intimite the sound is, and this translates to more emotional connection with the sound. Say no to grado type 'endcaps'.
   
  The finish matters, thin and non-intrusive is the name of the game. the finish totally changes the sound from raw wood state. It can be ruined or enhanced. The goal is to find a thin finish that doesn't take away raw wood desirable qualities and adds a refinement to the sound. The right finish will make the sound 'finished', less dry and gives more realism and truness to instruments.
   
  Tuning the cup can literally change the entire character of a driver and sound. It is a revelation to hear the variation and range of poor wood with poor cup geometry and poor finish (totally detuned) to a fully tuned cup that is light and resonant and has musical geometry. The average cup being made I suspect falls somewhere in between these two extremes with the occaisonal accident of planets being alligned and a musical cup being made, but through the understanding of cup tuning, the guessing game and chance can be taken out of the equation and a cup can reliably be made to maximize the driver's potential. I have done this successfully so anyone wanting to do the same need only take all the hard work we've done here and carefully apply it and build upon it. With cup tuning, one no longer needs a rabbits foot to hang onto in anticipation if the headphone will sound awesome. It can be predictable.
   
  violin varnish equivalent. It is a thin oil. two coats on the inside with a very quick and light wet sand (after a week cure time) and 2 coats on the outside seems sufficient to me. 1 day wait after first apply, 4 hours thereafter. This is a very easy to apply finish, goes on thin and dries quick. Doesn't require any top coat. 20 sec. light buff with cotton t shirt after a week cure time. Sound stability will also take a week. This is essetially a violin varnish without any additives for color and light reflection enhancements and a quicker dry time


----------



## thelostMIDrange

zinseer wax free shelac
   
  2 coats
   
  A/B   quick light wet sand vs straight finish
   
   
  the non wetsanded set has more 'sparkle' and a apparent 'detail' but it is not as musical or natural as the wet sanded set. Prefer the wetsanded set every time. .....there is still finish on the inside, but it is smoother to the touch and 50/50 finish and wood look and feel.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

...........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

comparing 1.5" and 1.25"  limba sets again, everything else is the same
   
  It's no comparison, really can't enjoy the longer cups at all.  the shorty's kill in every way, so much more natural all around. In the trash go the 1.5's, never again


----------



## thelostMIDrange

......


----------



## sluker

Are you finishing the inside and out or just the outside?


----------



## liamstrain

Good question - if we are following the violin model, you would only finish the outside of the cups.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

both, but the next set will just be one or the other......I'm almost at the point where I will be using unfinished wood as my final cup solution.....the finish is just too big an impact on tone and for the most part it's not a good one.....raw wood needs refinement though so that's the dilemna here.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

liamstram, I will try a set with just the outside but I think that's what's killing the dynamics......and the inside finish is killing the high end......this is a general finding from my other dozens of finishing experiements as well.......I really need to wait the full week for cure time.....it does feel hard, but the guy who recommended this to me said it will feel hard and dry, but it's not.....so will check back in 4 more days....i'm not hopefull but who knows, maybe it will change......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

the problem with no finish on the inside is that the sound is not refined enough to be considered reference quality. Maybe a super dense hard wood would not need a finish, but medium dense woods seem to......and the affect of the dense woods is not a musical one in general, so that wasn't a solution for my ears in any case..........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I think I will try to thin this shellac out before applying it...........more time and expense though.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

a quick search seems to indicate that thinning the shelac reduces the amount of 'solids'.......In addition to thinning, I may even have to look into spraying it on vs wiping, as wiping  may drive it in the wood in higher concentrations.


----------



## sluker

What about a waxy soft finish on the inside to seal the wood but not harden it?


----------



## liamstrain

If i had to guess, I think that would deaden the response... your highs would totally go out the window.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

the other option is to try nitrocellulose lacquer spray on that I used to use on my guitars....and is what was used on classic fenders and gibsons martins etc....but getting tired and poor. spending way too much money on this at this point.....but feel so close


----------



## stratocaster

What about going Limba for an inside sleeve and some harder, denser wood outside to give the Limba some high boost? Whenever I tried wooden inners with alu outers, the highs were still affected by the alu outers.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

maybe but I really have come to prefer the non-end cap sound. more alive and nuanced. I found that endcaps tightened and dampened things too much........The raw limba sound is almost perfect for me too, so I really just want that last bit of refinement I think......but am open to considering other things......will think about it..


----------



## thelostMIDrange

might try this. I've used it on guitars...
   
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquers/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquer.html


----------



## thelostMIDrange

sluker, not sure about waxy finish that would be soft but not hard.......I do think the texture and hardness of the inner surface is key however. Just don't know what to use.....I seem to feel the harder the surface, the more high end detail and 'spank i get. as liamstrain suggests too....which is what limba needs to get that last little bit...but it always comes at the cost of odd sounds. All the finishes i've tried turn the upper end to a non tru and non musical one, and they literally remind me of plastic grado cup sound.......I think we need to start looking outside the box of traditional 'wood finshes'.....at least on the inside....since it's sound we are concerned with, not protecting or beautifying the wood......I think i want a super hard but super thin finish.....something that could be sprayed on and one coat would do it.....the thinned and sprayed shellac is my only idea though at this point....I think i would like to try it....but don't have a hvlp sprayer


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I would try this but it's $60
   
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CLP-1600/Gallon-Semi-Gloss-2001-CrystaLac-Water-Based-Wood-Finish


----------



## sluker

Outside the box...Hmmm.
  Nail polish? you can be precise with application and get it on really thin. Plus it would be easy to get off and its cheap. Finally it dries really hard and smooth


----------



## thelostMIDrange

very interesting.......


----------



## liamstrain

nail polish would be most likely a lacquer neh? Not too much different than using a shellac, but might be worth trying.


----------



## sluker

I have this stuff that was $1 per bottle that I use to fix dings and chips on my carbon bike frames. It's called "Hard as Nails"


----------



## thelostMIDrange

i just applied some to one cup, it's over the shelac but it certainly does have a different feel....It dries so quick I may give a listen right now...


----------



## liamstrain

That's another one that top dries very quickly, but should be given at least 8 hours or so to cure, if it truly is lacquer based.


----------



## stratocaster

I used Chestnut Melamine Laquer. Dries quickly. Even on woods which are hard to deal with otherwise, like cocobolo.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

Well at least we know what not to do.....the nailpolish did not sound great, but it surely had an affect...... I like that kind of out of the box thinking though..........but unless we come up with something else....I 'm thinking more of something that can be blended with the wood but still ends up thin and hard and smooth.  I guess I don't want to negate the wood affect much, just a touch. This is how I ended up with the wetsanding technique....it gave me some of both qualities (wood and finish)......so I think i will stick with that for now, thin the shellac out, maybe spray it on, wait for the full week to cure, and wetsand.......I am rushing things out of curiosity, but I really think I need to wait and do it right, since these little things matter (cure time, aplication method , wet sanding, etc)
   
   
  btw here's another cheap perfect fitting headband for grado style cups (2 3/16 gimbal spacing) can find these all over ebay for $10
   
  sony mdr v150
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Sony%20MDR-V150&_fln=1&_sc=1&_sop=1&_ssov=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1539&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=20
   
  l
   
  I still prefer the mdr 7502 as it is a little simpler and more solid in terms of how the band adjusts via a metal band, but they are out of production. these 150's are plentiful. they are super light, as they are 100% plastic. Just a thought for someone on a budget....wearing them for half hour, not bad at all feel, just about perfect clamping pressure, with light weight wood cups, really don't even feel the top of the band. And the cups swivel in all 4 directions,


----------



## thelostMIDrange

idea -fire hardening the wood, just the inside chamber walls
   
http://www.ehow.com/how_6558051_fire-harden-wood.html
   
   
   
  or petrify
http://www.ehow.com/how_8752686_make-petrified-wood.html


----------



## sluker

Roasted Magnum


----------



## thelostMIDrange

took a flame to them for a minute or so each......certainly didn't hurt anything soundwise.....I first sanded out all the oil though. I like my eyebrows thank you !
   
  Feel like I am back to the raw wood sound in terms of truness of instruments (still feel the outside shelac took something from me in dynamics) and all in all I prefer this more natural sound to the straight shelac sound for sure. the Doors light my fire, in particular the keyboard and guitar solos (p-90?) can be a good test for upper mid truness. On less than natural sounding cups, those solos will sound harsh, odd and strident. I recall cocobolo in the wrong length as particularly offensive. If a cup allows them to sound musical, it will likely handle everything else............ think I will listen to these for a while, pretty darn close to where I want to be. I wonder if the flaming didn't tighten up that grain a bit as I hear a little more refinement in upper end that I don't recall in earlier raw wood inner sounds..............but also.tempted to play with truoil and wet sand once more. May do one final a/b between these and identical set with truoil wetsand..........


----------



## thelostMIDrange

a couple hours listening to the raw wood inner/shellac outer...it's not it. everything is fine, even sounding,  true instruments, natural. no obvious defects, but it's a little too dry sounding. It's missing some element of mystery and fun. missing a touch of compression and 'give' in the midrange. i.e. opposite of dryness.............
   
   
   
   
  found something..
   
  it's the tru oil that brings out the ortho type mid compression in the driver. 'bloom'.......apply with rag. wait 4 hours, use the scuff side of  a slightly damp sink sponge to wipe a few times around followed right away with a t shirt to wipe up some slurry and spread the rest around smooth....
   
  final feel is very thin oil/wood look
   

   
  sounds rich and musical. instruments are still true and natural. the oil also brings out the upper end character...that was the trick and what the other finishes couldn't do..... totally different than the dry raw wood sound inner. And it takes a total of 5 minutes in actual time to transform the sound....the finish matters. you can change the entire character of the sound with just a thin application to the inner walls. amazing....the problem is the bass gets less defined......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I think burn in on these drivers is minor. I've been listening to these cups with drivers that have 2 hours on them and they sound rich and warm without a trace of harshness or uncontrolled bass.


----------



## sluker

Are you talking about the latest batch of blacks?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

yep...
   
  the power of cup tuning is too much. It's scary how much the sound can be influenced. Just this oil. If it's too rich of a sound, thin it some more and it goes back towards the raw wood sound.....I tried these cups with 300 hour drivers and 2 hour drivers and i can get them to sound almost identical. The new drivers want a little more oil the old ones less......these cups really shouldn't be made by anyone other than the maker of the driver imo. There's too much influence from the cup. The driver's total character can be changed by wood, cup shape and finish.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

too much oil left and the bass becomes a little bulbous and murky. So that's what I'm using to gauge how far to thin it back. Where there is a balance of mid compression and clear bass.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

not many will get this reference. but dialing in this inner wall oil is similar to the gradual change the old fender and marshall guitar amplifiers went through from the mid 60's into the mid 70's.....It went from thick fender bassman round sound with slightly loose low end to early marshall plexi jtm's with a little more cut, but still a nice balance of richness and dryness and then into the early 70's marshalls became more dry and had more cut and less body with tighter low end. This is the same thing that happens except in reverse with the inner wall oil. It goes from dry with cut and tight bass all the way to rich and deep with looser less defined low end. I always like teh '68 marshall plexi which was a nice balance of both and that is what I am going for with the cups. I wish I could find a way to keep the midrange compression without it messing up the bass......I've wetsanded away most of the oil at this point and am 90% back to a raw wood sound just to get the bass back in tune.


----------



## stratocaster

Have you ever tried the concept of wooden distancers, putting a distance of about 1/2 " between driver and ear, using G-cushs? this is the concept of the MS1000 or Ultimate as of in this thread? Could be another way to go.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

atten liamstrain...
   
  Do you have any idea what the high frequency vs low frequency's look like as they are travelling thorugh the cup?  Meaning could I spread the oil thicker towards the front of the cup to get mid compression but leave it drier towards the back to keep the bass from getting bulbous?  I know this stuff sounds crazy at this point, but this is what i'm hearing....I want this midrange compression from the oil but do not want it's affect on the low end......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I have tried that but not in a while and not with respect to this issue in particular.......the issue though is not that the bass is getting messed up in that way. It's more of a type of saturation that is totally the affect of the oil. I can't envision moving the driver away would take away the oils' affect on the low end. I've got a nice balance now at about 10% oil left, but i lost a little mid compression that was very pleasing and musical.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I wonder if I just coated the bottom half of each cup or the top half of each cup....or just the near half or outer half....that kind of thing. something to let the oil affect everything except the lows......but' i'd need to know what a sound wave looks like as it is travelling through the cup, or if that's even how the sound wave works....i have no clue


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I may try the danish instead of tru oil, which I recall had a different version of the same affect.


----------



## liamstrain

My experience with the G-cush is that it will reduce bass overall, and tends to make all grado drivers sound tinny. Not recommended on any can, even the G1000/M1000/P1000. I think a spacer would have the same effect. 
   
  thelostMIDrange, I'm not really sure how differential oil would affect the sound, but that sounds like it would be akin to a partial damping of that near area, which should attenuate the upper range more than anything else. Worth a shot, but I don't really know in this case - really you're dealing with all the soundwaves hitting all parts at (roughly) the same time - so its more a matter of changing how they scatter, reflect and resonate - rather than where.
   
  I'm frankly surprised still you are getting this much difference from the finishes.


----------



## stratocaster

It would seem logical to me that if your objective is to get some sort of interaction between the sound waves and the wood, this could rather be achieved by dealing with wood/whatever material between driver and ear, since this is what will predominantly reach your ear. That is why I suggested distancers. I recall the MS1000 sound as well textured and layered in the bass, slightly enhanced in the highs.
  I tried G-cushs without distancers, the result was what liamstrain describes. But it was great with distancers. No bass reduction, bass enhancement!


----------



## liamstrain

Something to consider with the differential finish on the interior. I think it's not so much that highs are front, and bass is at the back or visa versa, but more of a percentage of coverage vs. raw wood... you could, for instance, use vertical stripes and achieve the same sound, I would think. 
   
  That's my best guess. I don't have any access to acoustic modeling software at the moment (and of course, a complete lack of useful coeficients for this specific wood and finish options).


----------



## thelostMIDrange

oh, the affect of a light oil is quite large....and as i wetsand it away, I can hear it's affects disappear.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

Ok I see what you are saying strat. Maybe oil the distancer between driver and ear but not eh back side of cup....interesting.....but i would then have to live with the affects of the driver being further away from the ear. which may be ok if in the trade I could get this mid compression without it ruining the bass...


----------



## thelostMIDrange

yes the percent of coverage changes everything, but I haven't noticed it changeing things disproportionately for different frequencies....I don't think I could pick up on that even if it were happening......too bad i can't just coat part of the cup and not another.....I guess nothing's that easy.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

what if I taped off interval bands lengthwise and wiped the oil over the entire cup, then when it dries, take the tape off to reveal raw wood under those sections.....something like that.......maybe this would then affect the lows differently.........anything to keep the oil from affecting the lows


----------



## liamstrain

that sounds like a reasonable plan to try, if you have the spare time and cups...


----------



## thelostMIDrange

just to be clear stratocaster, the oil is not affecting the quantity of bass, it's affecting the _quality..._ in a negative way.....but the affect on everything from low mids up is very nice. It's the same quality, it just doesn't serve the low end well for whatever reason


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I can try it because if it doesn't work its' just a quick wetsand and the oil will disappear and i'm back to raw wood,,


----------



## thelostMIDrange

applied danish oil to inner walls with 3 strips approx .5" wide each blocked out to leave raw wood. No idea why but it's wonderful. This will be the final solution for me. The most noticeable and beneficial change is how realistic and natural everything from vocals up is. I've never heard hi hats and cymbals as realistic and natural in limba before. What a nice atmosphere. Everything is placed in space and has it's own character. Don't know if it's the type of oil or the oil/raw wood pattern. And the best part is that the bass seems unaffected. I can't find fault. I only hope I can replicate this delicate balance on another set. Should be able to since I know exactly what was done, but that final oil application is super critical and delicate it seems. The type, amount and placement of the oil seems to affect things alot more than I wish it did......


----------



## sluker

Did you leave the outer walls bare?


----------



## thelostMIDrange

outside is the shelac......but the inner surface can change the entire character and placement of sound.....with the oils, the mids and treble jump out from the background. This was one of my two complaints with raw limba sound. One was the unrefined upper end (characteristic of all raw wood sounds) and the other was the background placement of vocals and hit hat's and other cymbals which also would have been a deal breaker since these need to be right up front for world class sound that has emotional impact....


----------



## thelostMIDrange

But I think I need to do a double oil on the inner surface since that is what I have here.....yesterday I oiled the entire surface with truoil and then wetsanded 90% of it away......on top of that i did the striped danish oil treatment with a much lighter wetsand.I'd say 90% of that oil is left in this final sound......so it will have to be a 2 stage inner treatment....and this is not including the outer surfacw which is a different treatment entirely and does seem to be nicer than the oil's I had used in the past......now whether I could just use one of those two oils on the inner insted of both, I don't know, but they seem to sound different from each other so at this point, since I still have both oils, I will follow what I did here......


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and these cups were tuned with the 2 hour fresh drivers....they sound like totally broken in drivers to me. Rich and warm with character and detail. wonderful atmosphere and instrument placement....this all leads me to believe that driver burn in is minimal........cup tuning is powerful stuff. too powerful. Wish it were not so. would makes things much easier


----------



## thelostMIDrange

If I have a quibble with the current sound is that I've heard bass guitars a little more defined in some other final finishes.....I recall this being early on in the process when was using danish oil, so will try a simple danish oil inner wetsanded next time first and then dial it in as needed with the striped oil method. It may turn out that the danish oil inner is primarily causing the pleasing results here which would be nice because then it could be a one step interior finish process. But cup geometry and outside surface is pretty much set in stone at this point. The inner surface could be tailored to particular person's preference and music collection. The truoil seems to have more compression compared to danish. I think there's still more to learn about those two oils and their affect as an inner wall treatment, but at the very least, both work much more than any other finish i've tried. and they can be wetsanded to desired affect pretty easily compared to other finishes which are more invasive and less maliable....


----------



## liamstrain

I'm glad the striped method worked. Yay theory backed by experiment.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I haven't ruled out the different oil yet as the factor for the change though. The oils sound different amazingly enough. I may even try a blend and see what happens.......the inner surface is a whole world of exploration in itself it seems. And to think most people still think all woods sound pretty much the same. I would never even begin to convince them that the inner surface matters......Live and let live though. to each his own. ignorance is bliss. etc.......
   
   
  in fact the inner surface matters so much I was having l/r balance issues and thought it was driver mismatch but turnes out it was likely the slight difference of inner treatment. It's almost impossible to get them the same on the first try. the same amount of oil and wetsanding.......they must be listened to and wetsanded until they sound even and the same.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

topic:Oversized 'buttons' on the exit port hole
   
   
  point - you know those little plastic buttons on some grados....it's known they affect things a little
   
  counterpoint A  - When I cupped the end of my old grados (completely) in plastic, mahog and aluminum, the changes were drastic and generally non-musical. raised or lowered the pitch, made sound unatural etc. You can also feel the pressure of the sound waves getting 'backed up' against your ears. Sound waves are powerful stuff.
   
  counterpoint B - when I cup the ends of my tuned cups, the change is far less drastic and still somewhat musical. I wouldn't want to leave the ends closed but it got me thinking about those little grado buttons and I suspected once the cup was tuned, they might be useful, since the sound is generated around the edges of the driver, not out of the magnet. So it really starts its journey there.
   
  Synthesis - So I made several sizes of end caps 1/2" 3/4" and 1" ..........the effective opening of the cup was 1.5"
  the half inchers had very little if any noticeable affect, the next two did however and the 1" seemed to really bring the vocals more up front and focused the sound a touch and whenever this happens the intimacy level goes up., which my limba cups benefited from. So really there was only 1/4" opening around the edge.
   
  So I will making a set with wood end caps and 1/4" edge opening. 
   
   
  Another experiment involved the placement of 3/4" dowel rod right up against the magnet back and straight out through the back of the cups, effectively making a solid cylander separating the outer edge soundwaves, the entire length of the cup. You would think this would totally mess with the sound and it would be terrible since there is a big rod in the center of the cup the entire length .....but suprisingly I noticed very little affect, negative or postive -about as much affect as the simple 3/4"button on the end............ Which tells me most of the action of sound is within the 1/4" or so around the cups inner edge. and this of course adds some explanation as to why the finish is such a powerful influencer. The sound is bouncing and riding that edge all it's journey from back of driver to outside the back cup edge......... 
   
   
  But it also led me to the 1" end cap idea. which if useable, would also serve to negate the need for the mesh grill since with only 1/4" gap around the edge it's pretty tough to see anything unsightly inside the cup such as the wires etc.....I never liked those grills in any case....will see.


----------



## sluker

One step closer to fully closed.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I can't see how to accomplish fully closed but who knows. Might be a way. I'll let others tackle that one. you'll be eating alot of popcorn waiting for me to figure that one out


----------



## sluker

Wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

busy with lifes many demands. now back to what matters. sound vibration !.........spent some time with tung oiled final form cups.
   
  set A total raw limba wood
  set B raw wood outer, tung oil inner walls (first time for me w/ this particular oil)
   
  Here's the problem variable, they had diff V4's..... all sound different to me.
  So I have no real idea what differences I hear can be attributed to the finish and/or the driver. So can't really learn anything definite from this.......but at least I totally enjoyed each set and could likely live indefinitely into the future with either. more natural and truer than my old grado and senns' in any case....
   
  Comparing them in a casual manner during week revealed interesting tidbits, but basically what we already have learned in our little journey. That they are totally different sounds and vibes. I like aspects of each and struggle with what to do here. So, for myself, I will be leaving my outers raw until I find a real reason to put a finish on them....cracking being my only real concern, and based on experience, I'm not giving alot of concern to it. It's not a guitar neck. and those don't disintigrate into dust if not finished, they only bend back and forth a touch and that only matters because the strings are super alligned for action......... So comparing the type of dimensions and scale we are comparing, I don't think this cup will move too much or cause problems that affect anything. Especially since the drivers are semi loose/tight fit...which also seem to work nicer for sound reasons. The finish on the outside is stricly a holdover from a superficial mindset the cult-ure fosters. Totally understandable one at least. Things do pop out when finished. color, grain etc which can be cool. But raw has it's own mad max vibe to it....I did 'burnish' the wood with steel wool on the lathe though, so if one is sensitive enough, he would find the 'finish' like a super light hand rubbed finish. Special attention here to inner wall burnishing. Mix that with some hand oil over use and you have a natural finish like the eddie Vhalen he puts on all his necks since '78. his hand oil. Turns our we are oil factories. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  here's my final sets.....sucks being a perfectionist. check out that fit and finish !
no grill mesh. don't need it.don't want it.  looking inside takes the mystery out of it. which most do not want. they want mystery and confusion and war.  I'd rather see how things really work and live in reality. Once headphone cups are demystified. which is what true knowledge does, one can create a nicer sound that really relaxes. and what is music if not total relaxation.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
http://www.ehow.com/list_7634861_wood-burnishing-tools.html
   
http://www.scrollsawer.com/forum/wood-finishing-and-painting/13688.htm


----------



## thelostMIDrange

extract from one of thsoe burnishing links:
   
*Burnishing wood will slightly alter the wood surface. The surface of wood is made up of dried and collapsed cell walls from the living tree. (a normal living tree cell is mostly water, which is removed in drying of lumber.) As you burnish, the softer material of the cell walls will rub off, leaving the harder cellulose fibre structure. This cellulose structure is further compressed and joined to other cell wall similarly compressed and altered.

 The overall effect is to create a hard cellulose barrier against any dye, or finish absorption by the surface of the wood. That is why experts claim when you sand raw wood beyond 320 grit sandpaper, you are not sanding and are burnishing the wood. Some people like that finish effect and use it to their advantage.*


----------



## thelostMIDrange

and from same wiki link, looks like what I've been doing to the finish, is 'burnishing' it. Only now I am doing it to the wood as well. Burnishing the wood and leaving it raw is a different sound than just sanded raw wood. And burnishing the raw wood before applying finish is a way to minimize the amount that penetrates into the wood. So with just this info and 4 different oils, I can custom taylor a sound towards certain ends and ears. And this is with just one wood. The custom sounds that could be created if using multiple woods would be enourmous. And since no one has time to even begin this process, I stuck with one wood and learned it's ways.
   
*"Others claim you apply a couple of light coats of finish, then sand with 400 grit and progressively up to 1000 grit to the thin layers of finish, which flattens and burnishes the finish (not the wood) and this has a different look to the finish.........the claim is that burnished finish gives the wood a depth of shine; like a mirror. Burnished raw wood with a clear acrylic finish, (glaze, polycrylic, many water-borne finishes) just sits on top of the wood and acts like a clear protective coating like an automotive clear coat; a different finishing effect. Again, burnished wood is used by some for effect.

 French polish with shellac is a form of burnishing the finish on very expensive furniture

 ........historical evidence suggests that the act of burnishing creates mini-areas of local heat as you burnish. That is how the cellulose fibres get joined..... the word 'burn' has been there for a long, long time in recorded wood finishing circles."*


----------



## thelostMIDrange

there's a picture emerging of the 'sounds' and affects of the particular finishes......still early in their dis-cover-ing. i.e. the act of taking the cover off. demystifying, finding reality. there is a truth out there waiting to be discovered. It's never every man to his own opinion. Sure sounds sound different to different people, but there has to be something common to all. And to that end and with that premise established, i can tentatively suggest that a very light apply of tung oil is a pretty good all'rounder. Really nice bass, doesn't murder either the mids or uppers........tru-oil surely seems to have the magic mids with slight ortho compression. trebles and upper mids soft but clear and natural. the bass tends to be a bit murky though. This leads to linseed oil which has the nicest bass of all the oils, but I seem to feel it thins out the rest of the tone. Left is the danish oil which I haven't heard in awhile, as it was my first. Should build a new set with current geometry to relisten to danish. but memory is of a strident uppe mid, but that could easily have been the poor cup geometry back when I was using danish. hence the need for re-assessment. I'd be happy with tung or tru oils at this point though. Two flavors of the same treat.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

spent the afternoon swapping out the above drivers in those 2 sets of limba cups. And it is primarily the driver variation that is responsible for the differences, which are significant........so this leads to a new ranking in variables for cup tuning.  from most variable and influential to least
   
  driver variation of the v4 driver or whatever other driver is used
  cup geometry - getting the right length and getting it to sympathetically vibrate to sound which I feel means light and thin walls with little end mass
  wood species
  finish type - oil, varnish, laquer etc
  finish application - thickness, burnished or not etc
  silver vs copper cable (silver being 'cleaner' with more definition at the expense of some midrange and warmth)
  driver tightness - looser being more advantageous it seems


----------



## thelostMIDrange

3-way with same drivers: shelac limba, raw limba, raw zebrawood.
  all the same cup geometry as well
   
  first up, finished shelaced limba -these drivers are tight fit- pretty nice. decent bass, mids a little recessed, treble pretty nice. overall a little lifeless
  next, raw limba - loose fit drivers - richer sound, warmer, more realistic treble. vocals still a bit in back. overall nicer sound. a little shy in upper mids though
  next, raw zebrawood - loose fit drivers - best bass of the three for sure, but this wood is alot of upper mids and treble, and a bit strident in mid at times. A touch dry maybe but compared to alot of woods I've heard, this is a good sounding wood, nice and even sounding with less low mids than limba and not as rich or warm, but maybe the nicest treble I've ever heard from a raw wood. very accurate and natural. The more I listen to this wood, the more I like it.
   
  back to raw limba - limba's lows and highs can't compete with zebrawood but limba has the mids. rich and warm and deep with no stridence anywhere. Wish I could mix and match some of zebras qualities into this wood, but just doesn't work that waw unfortunately.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw limba vs raw outer limba with inner tung oil
   
   
  same drivers
   
   
  raw limba has that lower mid fullness and non-pronounced but sufficient treble
  finished limba is more even sounding with much more upper end energy but overall less warmth and richness. It's a tradeoff since raw limba does need to thin out in the lower mids. this is the balanceing act with this wood with regards to how to finish it...zebrawood would have different requirements for example and i'd search for a finish that warmed and deepened it a bit if such a finish exists.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I had a set of v4's that were particularly rich and warm. Too much for limba since that is also that's wood's signature. But I popped thos driver in the zebrawood, which before had too much upper mids that were strident at times and now alot has changed. These cups with this driver set has no strident upper mids, less nice bass (this is the driver) and less treble(driver as well). All in all a good match since these drivers do not bring out the strident mids compared to other drivers.
   
  More and more I feel the only way to really get reference sound with wood cups is to have several sets of cups at the ready with correct cup geometry and match a particular driver set to them. Otherwise it's a crapshoot to a certain degree.


----------



## stratocaster

Did your driver variations exist within a batch of V4's or did you notice them between batches of drivers?


----------



## t-crisis

It would be cool if you were using poly because then you could make super thin, like a few millimeters thin, rings of limba and zebrawood and stack one on top of another till you reached the proper length, and then soaked them in poly and viced them together. When the poly dried you'd have a hybrid with all the right sounds... maybe. Probably not. But that would be cool.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

between batches
   
   
   
   
   
  limba vs cocobolo both 1 1/8"
   
  the cocobolo orignally had what looks like a silver cable.
It was very piercing, hard and un natural upper mids. The sound quickly improved with the swap of a grado copper cable. But was further improved with matching a warm soft sounding set of drivers to the cocobolo. now sounds much nicer. The cup length was correct which helps alot imo. But this is more evidence that it is a matching issue even more than a wood issue. As long as the cup is the correct geometry, I feel almost any wood could be matched with a set of v4's if a few are tried. I tried 3 sets with these....... The drivers vary so much I may swap back in the silver cable to see if it now works with these diff v4 drivers


----------



## thelostMIDrange

raw zebra vs burnished limba outer/burnished oil inner
   
  different v4 drivers from same batch (they are different but i've gotten to know them somewhat so while it's still a variable, I feel I can separate it out from the zebra/limba compare, but maybe not entirely. The differences may be driver and/or wood. But only other way to compare two woods would be to listen, then physically take them out and swap cups. This takes 10 minutes or so and by then my state of mind may be altered differently and so I introduce myself as a bigger variable than the drivers. So it's an art not a science for sure.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

the impressions:
   
  limba draws you into the sound more but the zebra is tight and lively with a driving beat. Different vibes. zebra is strong and bold and has the top and bottom nailed while limba is weak there but in a friendly unhostile way and does the mids right, so the tradeoff's are easier to live with. Zebra does sound like one of the least problematic exotics though, probably because it is not as dense as most of the others. Hard to say why really.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

vocals further back with zebra and overall sound is more even and balanced but a bit dry. limba is more affected, less dry/more soft, with vocals and mids more up front center and no trace of harshness upper mids.......part of this may be because of the different inner finish treatments, but I don't suspect entirely.


----------



## pabbi1

Great work 0 I had played with Senn cups, but making them closed back is a really bad idea...
   
  Just a couple of thoughts - Maxvla on the forum is a violin maker . repair, so he will have some input on finish. I always prefer the real tung over Danish oil (boiled Linseed), but can't speak to your application. Second, I really liked Elm (the veneralbe R-10 is zelkova, which is really difficult to source), but possibly Chinese elm would be worth a try. Sitka spruce would also intrigue me.
   
  Just great work.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

limba vs iroko.
  iroko is a softer hardwood not too much different than hond mahog. But has some softwood characteristics mahog does not.........
   
  quite different sounds.  note different v4 drivers as well
   
  iroko is all about the upper mids, limba lower mids.
   
  will exchange out these drivers in opposite cups and relisten to see if its the drivers and cups or just drivers, because I know these drivers are smilarly low/high mid centered by themselves.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

iroko and limba with swapped drivers: iroko now has the softer worn in drivers
   
  wow.  what a great example of reverse synergy. These both sound quite bad, iroko and worn in driver especially. I would feel sorry for the guy who would have bought that pairing. I've never heard such a sound, It was wrong in almost everyway and basically un listenable. This is the power of wood. with plastic or metal there is little variation within each species, with wood, it's all over the place. Iroko did not sound great with the other drivers, but with the grey set, it was a match made not made in heaven for sure.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I'm convinced as well that limba really only shines with some examples of v4's. This effort is increasingly becoming an art of matching driver to cups to finish to cable to particular personal tastes. It's not a case of this wood is spectacular always and at all times. It's about synergy between the parts and frankly alot of trial and error. i.e. time
   
  wood can be a real drag on the v4 and from my research, I'd suggest aluminum unless one wants to take his chances with wood. So much variation within wood cups out there. Sound shouldn't be left open to such influence without personal attention to dialing it in. I guess that's where the diy modding thing comes in but it's also expensive to try many cups for the average comsumer.
   
   
   
  I'm listening to these iroko while typing. Holy c#$ I can't take it any longer. horrid sounds................... And these are my favorite drivers with most other cups.....................it's all about matching. I wonder if there are some drivers out there for you iroko?


----------



## pabbi1

I also wonder if you have tried any of the rosewood species - while Brazilian would be the absolute best, Cities makes that most difficult, so East Indian, or Bolivian, or even Ovankol. Then there is Afzalia for quite an intense grain. Cook Woods would be the most likely source for any and all of these.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I've tried indian rosewood and brazilian cherry.  but not braz rosewood


----------



## thelostMIDrange

tried the grey drivers in zebra and then back in limba. The drivers signature sure does carry over into each, from iroko on through, but definite difference in all the cups. they sound best in limba as far as basic synergy. There they will stay. one more set complete finally.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

swapped out copper for silver cable into v4's in limba.  silver may have more clarity, detail and punch but seems to aggrevate any upper end issues a cup or driver may have. I can't get silver to gel with any of the magnums i've tried it with. It has nice qualities but for me they are not enough to put up with and copper sounds more natural and less fatigueing.


----------



## t-crisis

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> swapped out copper for silver cable into v4's in limba.  silver may have more clarity, detail and punch but seems to aggrevate any upper end issues a cup or driver may have. I can't get silver to gel with any of the magnums i've tried it with. It has nice qualities but for me they are not enough to put up with and copper sounds more natural and less fatigueing.


 

 Your copper cable is Mogami, Grado, Canare...? Not that it matters, I am just wondering


----------



## thelostMIDrange

actually i did notice a difference between grado copper and mogami copper. grado cable has a little more solidity to the sound. less 'air' and maybe even a touch darker than the mogami. but both sound like copper. I think the grado cables works with the mahogany and tends to offset that wood's overly airy quality. overall i like the mogami just fine too.  but either of those have still plenty of detail to hold my interest. a detail freak should probably use silver all else being equal......never tried any other coppers like canare


----------



## thelostMIDrange

what is natural sound? does anyone know or care?  natural sound is characterized by lack of headaches and annoyances, accurate instrument and vocal presentation and realistic dynamic levels. lp's are more natural than cd's generally speaking both due to the dynamic levels and truness of instruments. the magnum driver is more natural than the grado driver for the same reasons, especially if the rest of the headphone is built with that goal in mind.
   
  poor instrument representation and _extra_-ordinary presentations are equally unatural. Sounds that immediately impress are suspect. everytime i put any driver in cocobolo for example, I was hit with the feeling that things are over the top. a recent post-er mentioned his mags in coco made his cd's sound like they were re-mastered and that pretty much sums up that wood in my experience. except I don't want my albums remastered. alot of them sound perfect as they were originally made and those that don't can be bought as remastered. What does a remastered cd sound like with cocobolo? remastered 2x?  That wood in particular was a sure headache maker for me but i admit it did impress in it's overly punchy and supra-natural presentation of sound.
   
  I think this forum is filled with people who wouldn't know natural sound if they heard it. natural sound does not wow a person in the short term. natural sound allows for real music to wow a person over time through getting into the performance not from the dynamic nature of the sound. Sound is sound and music is music. there is a difference. Sennheisers, grados and beyers for example are not natural sounding either. each in different ways, grados are unatural in the upper mids, beyers in the trebles and senns in the presentation. my opinion of course.
   
  After some back and forth with the maker of the mag and listening to 12 examples of the v4 i'm convinced he is of the natural sound camp. tuning the cup is spart of doing the driver jsutice but more and more it's becoming about tuning the headphone in total, the synergy of cup/finish/driver/cable. of the 12 drivers and 60 cups i've tried to develop into a natural sounding headphone i've succeded twice. it ain't easy and the final headphone does not wow, but i wouldn't trade if for any mass produced phone.  the day cup makers become headphone tuners is the day the magnum will reach it's potential and benefit society. natural sound reminds people what it means to be human and not machine and there are increasingly few things that serve that purpose.


----------



## liamstrain

While I agree with the sentiment, I disagree with some of the assertions made. But regardless - this is an interesting path you've taken, my friend.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I love it when people disagree and say so. very rare. I disagree with some of it as well....like the bumper sticker that says don't believe everything you think........this little thread is me talking to myself. it's thinking out loud to organize thoughts and focus.......and don't we all say things to ourselves that part of us agrees with and another part says, now hold on, how can you think such a thing. and by dialectic of outrageous thought/sensible thought/synthesis things move forward. no outrageous thought, no progress. like the thought that there can be a planet with no war. how outrageous a thought if one looks at history. war seems inevitable and yet i think and imagine a world with out it anyway. while machines never entertain the possibility and so the little machines feed the big war machine. natural sound could save the world as far as i'm concerned. It will happen, what else can do it? music is the universe's olive branch.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

but think about this.....isn't natural sound the goal of sound reproduction? and if so, how come it's seldom mentioned? most of the phones i've heard can't get the basics right, so they seem to skip right over them and go for detail, punch, awesome bass, phenomenal sound stage etc. i just want natural snare drums. and that is very hard to achieve I have found.


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## liamstrain

That's what I look for in headphones I used to mix and master. My HD-600 do this well. My 702 as well, with a touch of EQ. Even my 240 do this better than my Grados...
   
  The Grados are more fun to listen to though. 
   
  It's not so much the journey to natural sounding headphones my "assertions" comment was pointed towards. But my feelings on the sonic contributions of cables are well known (but it was also aimed at what I feel was an innaccurate picture of some of the headphones on the market).


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## thelostMIDrange

so we agree grados are not natural sounding but 'fun'. and I can agree the 600 is somewhat natural. at the very least it is 'even' sounding and from memory, didn't have alot of the odd sounds some others have. what are your findings with cable? does it need burn in? silver/copper have a 'sound' etc.........I think back to when I was searching fro interconnects for my turntable to amp and tried many cables at many price ranges and I was astounded how every pricy cable I tried turned otherwise natural lp's into odd sounding music. It's this kind of thing i'm talking about. I settled on grado cables actually. They made a short run of cable for stereo applications many years ago.


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## liamstrain

no, my findings (both from personal experience, and backed by electrical theory and experiment) - there is no difference between copper and silver of equal resistance (e.g. make the copper shorter by .5" and they are the same resistance again). No burn in... no magic, no difference between grades of copper. Any properly made cable will sound like any other properly made cable.


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## thelostMIDrange

wow, now those are some controversial findings !


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## liamstrain

Not really. Cables have never under any controlled repeatable blind (or otherwise objective) test, been shown to have any effect. It is only under sighted listening conditions that people report and can identify changes. This suggests that while, yes, they do hear an effect, it is not the cable or cable material, per se, that is responsible for that change.


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## thelostMIDrange

I agree psychology is a huge factor in all this. I've been blindly listening to stuff for that reason. I consistently pick out silver vs copper though. and wood differences driver variences as well. combine those 3 variables and the variance is night and day but out of those 3, cable is much less impact.


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## thelostMIDrange

after listening to a dozen v4's all in the same burnished limba cups,i have developed 4 categorys they can fall into:
   
  worn out blue jeans - dark, smooth, distant
 natural
 radioactive - like natural sets except upper mids are very colored and glowing
 edgy


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## t-crisis

Warn out blue jeans aren't dark!!


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## thelostMIDrange

right, should have been 'worn out jeans'  blue is just part of the phrase. it's the soft comfortable aspect of the phrase I was referring to, not the color.


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## t-crisis

You prefer the blue jeans or the natural drivers?

 And just curious, did you find a "perfect" set, i.e. a set that had all those attributes or more than one of them?


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## thelostMIDrange

always prefer natural sound over 'wow' sound. I've only found a couple sets that I feel are real natural sounding in limba. and even they are different........ it's even harder to get natural sound from other woods.......these categories are for the driver/limba combo. Any other wood and there would likely create different categories, with the exotics at least 2 of the categories would contain adjectives like hard, strident and unatural, as well, as detailed, quick, punchy, extra-ordinary. and none would be blue jeans which seems to be a mag/limba thing...........  I'm looking for ordinary and natural period. These basics are hardest to achieve ironically. and getting natural snare drums over the range of my albums is the hardest thing to achieve.


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## t-crisis

The things a man would do for natural snare drums...


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## thelostMIDrange

oops, said too much


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## thelostMIDrange

oops said too much


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## thelostMIDrange

oops, said too much


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## t-crisis

...... Can you rephrase somehow?


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## thelostMIDrange

maybe......seems to me there are 3 types of music and members around here: those who listen to perfectly recorded music and like to listen to headphones primarily for the experience as an end in itself. They like the wow factor and tend to be detail freaks. Then there are those who are more traditional music lovers and have a wide range of music in terms of how it was recorded and it's quality. They are more into the music as the end and not 'the sound'. So they enjoy music more for the perfomance and so have many 'albums' that are poorly recorded yet listen to them happily just the same. whereas the first group would see no point to that. the 3rd group are people who listen to 21st century music that is heavily sampled, digital, ambient, dub, rap etc and has little to no traditional instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums, vocal, violin, piano etc) or recording methods.
   
  And the point is that there is no one headphone that suits all 3 no matter what anyone says. And frankly this forum is a mess primarily because of the unspoken mishmash of people,ages, ideas and opinions. Everyone would be better served and more quickly and affordably find their ideal headphone if there were 3 separate forums. I would participate in the 2nd one and feel grado/magnums are primarily for traditional music and methods and 'good' headphones need to be somewhat forgiving to less than perfect recordings as well as hifi enough to extract the good stuff from great recordings. Like everything it's a balancing act. and that is hard enough. There is no way to fine tune a headphone to excel with all those previously mentioned BIG 3 categories.


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## thelostMIDrange

sympathy all around on those words. And yes it takes that delicate balance to be able to handle the wide range of songs in a music lovers collection. And I feel it requires a high knowledge of electronics and physics on one hand or intuition and feel on the other....but overall, it seems easier to reproduce flat e/q sound for Sound than natural colored sound for Music.........and there is a huge difference between those two aims.


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## MrHee

it seems to me that this whole trend of color neutrality is just an extension of certain peoples sensitivity to the trauma of listening to headphones like sony's mdr or beyer dynamics.  but i guess i wouldn't know because i actually like my dt770 80's (though maybe not for music)
   
  of the three categories you state, i would probably fit best into category number 2, but the conclusions you made about quality tastes may not reflect the majority of the group.  although i listen to music for its musicality and not the technical awe of my listening instruments, I would also say that i have many of the qualities from your category 1 head-fier.   i find it hard to appreciate lower quality recordings.  The stuff i listen to mostly is vinyl ripped in flac or vinyl from my record player. i am also extremely pleased listening to a pair of brand new awesome headphones.  and at that point its really only for the sake of the headphones
   
  overall i appreciate the mix of the community and as long as we keep our biases and predispositions accurately stated i can only see it as a benefit to have more diversity.


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## thelostMIDrange

.....


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## thelostMIDrange

...


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> ...


 
  true dat


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## thelostMIDrange

........


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## kopral 21

how about bamboo cup?


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## thelostMIDrange

possibly. worth a shot. If anything it may be a little too 'light' a wood, but if so, just adjust the overall mass until you feel it sounds 'right'


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## ponyfeathers

...so can anyone point me toward a mathematical or empirically data-driven set of general truths for ideal (specified standard) cup tuning?
  Specifically, I'm wondering if there are any decent studies using tone-generators, oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, etc. that could provide the untrained ear (mine) guidance on the comparative quality of two or more different sets of headphone cups. Also, is there much consensus on which characteristics lend themselves best toward different music or sound types and/or types of listeners?
    Thanks in advance!!
   
     Brian M. Abel
     Pony Feathers


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## fleasbaby

...that way madness lies my brother...


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## ponyfeathers

Indeed. By training,  I am more of a visual artist, and one thing that crops up over and over in art are tendancies for images that resemble relatively simple mathematical tendancies (fractals, sacred geometry, the golden ratio, etc.) to generally be more widely accepted as beautiful. Likewise, octaves and chords follow fixed patterns with regards to wavelength. I was contacted by an audiophile to make some wooden cups for his Grados. He wanted them to sound and look better. I was able to do the second one. I'm hoping to confidently be able to address the first.

     -Brian M. Abel
      Pony Feathers


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## fleasbaby

Those are indeed gorgeous...the most scientific cup maker I have seen is lostMidrange. 

I would advise looking for images and postings by him on the forums. You can piece together at least some if his findings that way. 

They hinge on cup depth, wood types and wall thicknesses. They are definitely more functional looking than your creations, perhaps you can marry the two design fields?


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## ponyfeathers

Thanks!!  I'll definitely check out his posts, and perhaps bug him for advice. These are only my first attempt, on rather limited research. On thing I bumped into since then was an oval wooden cup that was reportedly intended to eliminate standing waves. Back in my bio-physics consulting days, we used patterned texture foams for microwave emission attenuation. I could conceivably cut these types of patterns. I'm sure a combination of these could effectively be used in a headphone, but it seems to me that part of the point of using tone woods is to deliberately introduce certain resonances. Also, I wouldn't expect much from an open cup design, as most of the energy behind the drivers would exit the headphone as opposed to being reflected around and back to the ears. By the way, I am accustomed to and can handle a fair amount of madness.

      -Brian M. Abel
       Pony Feathers


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## Rauliki

I'm newbie here. I've just bought my first Grado SR60 headphones. I've read topics about modding and the one that interst me the most is this one.
  20 pages of try&fail (mostly) which ended in finding perfect solution for theLostMIDrange. I almost bought mahogany cup from the ebay, but as far as I understand I could have made a big mistake. It seems that not every cup would fit specific driver.
  I would love to make cups for sr60 myself. Is there any info about measurement of the cups?
  Maybe someone has sr60s and bought/made some cups and they sound right?
   
  Thanks in advance for any help.
   
  Kind regards,
  Rauliki
  PS. thelostMIDrange, did you mean black limba when you wrote in this topic?


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## chrislangley4253

Hey guys, midrange has been pretty vacant around here.. So, I'm gonna try to fill in a bit.
  Quote: 





ponyfeathers said:


> Thanks!!  I'll definitely check out his posts, and perhaps bug him for advice. These are only my first attempt, on rather limited research. On thing I bumped into since then was an oval wooden cup that was reportedly intended to eliminate standing waves. Back in my bio-physics consulting days, we used patterned texture foams for microwave emission attenuation. I could conceivably cut these types of patterns. I'm sure a combination of these could effectively be used in a headphone, but it seems to me that part of the point of using tone woods is to deliberately introduce certain resonances. Also, I wouldn't expect much from an open cup design, as most of the energy behind the drivers would exit the headphone as opposed to being reflected around and back to the ears. By the way, I am accustomed to and can handle a fair amount of madness.
> 
> -Brian M. Abel
> Pony Feathers


 
  It wouldn't hurt to try an oval. But, I would stay away from any foam or patterns designed to dampen the cups. One thing you don't want in a grado is a dead or dampened cup.. IMO. It just doesn't work.
   
  Quote: 





rauliki said:


> I'm newbie here. I've just bought my first Grado SR60 headphones. I've read topics about modding and the one that interst me the most is this one.
> 20 pages of try&fail (mostly) which ended in finding perfect solution for theLostMIDrange. I almost bought mahogany cup from the ebay, but as far as I understand I could have made a big mistake. It seems that not every cup would fit specific driver.
> I would love to make cups for sr60 myself. Is there any info about measurement of the cups?
> Maybe someone has sr60s and bought/made some cups and they sound right?
> ...


 
  Careful buying cups online, and I do not have the measurements on hand  I do know that it is best to stay around 1.25" on the length of the cups.

 I have heard plenty of bought/home made cups that sounded right, and others that did not!

 He meant "white limba" I am pretty sure. I do not know if there is a difference in the sound between white vs black.


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## Rauliki

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> Hey guys, midrange has been pretty vacant around here.. So, I'm gonna try to fill in a bit.
> It wouldn't hurt to try an oval. But, I would stay away from any foam or patterns designed to dampen the cups. One thing you don't want in a grado is a dead or dampened cup.. IMO. It just doesn't work.
> 
> Careful buying cups online, and I do not have the measurements on hand  I do know that it is best to stay around 1.25" on the length of the cups.
> ...


 
   
  Hi Chris.
   
  Thanks for clarification.
  Yesterday I noticed that my sr60's are probably some vinage model, they have blue foam, old looking cardbox. I think I won't make any modifications to them. They sound pretty good anyway. I wouldn't like to break the sound I hear*
  Of course if there will be chance to try some limba cups I will try.
   
  * I would rather buy another pair to test


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## Kaszanas

I am heavy digging again.
 I am interrested in wood cups for closed: CAL,
 and open: Beyer DT990 600 ohm phones.
 I would love some advice on the equipment I need to pull that off, I have basic eq like drill sandpaper and chizzle and hammer  pretty old school.
 It would be my first attempt at doing this so I would love to start with CAL so I have less stuff to **** up.
 I am looking forward to your advice.
 Experts gather!


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## fleasbaby

kaszanas said:


> I am heavy digging again.
> I am interrested in wood cups for closed: CAL,
> and open: Beyer DT990 600 ohm phones.
> I would love some advice on the equipment I need to pull that off, I have basic eq like drill sandpaper and chizzle and hammer  pretty old school.
> ...


 
  
 I started with a drill press, hole-saws, files and sandpaper. You can make some great cups that way. You need to cut out your basic shape, and find a way to mount it on the drill press (I used nuts and bolts). Then you can have the drill spin it while you sand and shape with files. Don't try Ebony on your first go. Pick something easy to work and relatively soft like Mahogany or Walnut.
  
 You get more precision with a lathe, but can't beat the above for a starter kit...


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## Kaszanas

fleasbaby said:


> I started with a drill press, hole-saws, files and sandpaper. You can make some great cups that way. You need to cut out your basic shape, and find a way to mount it on the drill press (I used nuts and bolts). Then you can have the drill spin it while you sand and shape with files. Don't try Ebony on your first go. Pick something easy to work and relatively soft like Mahogany or Walnut.
> 
> You get more precision with a lathe, but can't beat the above for a starter kit...


 
 Okay! Will try something along those lines, maybe not now, but I need to plan on how I would like to proceed, first I would have to gather all the resources to make that and then just have some spare time and fun with the wood work 
  
 Do you have any exact recommendations when it comes to the earcup wall measurements?
  
 what about that tool?


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## fleasbaby

kaszanas said:


> Okay! Will try something along those lines, maybe not now, but I need to plan on how I would like to proceed, first I would have to gather all the resources to make that and then just have some spare time and fun with the wood work
> 
> Do you have any exact recommendations when it comes to the earcup wall measurements?
> 
> what about that tool?


 
  
 Wall thickness? Depends on the can you're modding. Thinner is harder to do as well. I would avoid going under a 1/4 of an inch until you have access to a lathe.
  
 A dremmel (that thing above) is great to have, but use it sparingly and with a steady hand. I usually use mine to clean off extrusions on parts I used to mount them on my lathe's chuck.


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