# Audio-Gd R-28 impressions thread



## gLer

Hey guys,

Audio-Gd has just released a very unique product that combines a fully balanced discrete NOS/OS ladder dac with a super-powerful balanced and SE headamp and preamp.

It seems to be a logical combination of the company’s fully balanced NFB-1 amp (with the unique addition of an equal-powered ‘super SE’ output and balanced output) and R2R-1 fully balanced discrete ladder dac in a powerful all-in-one box.

Full details here: http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN.htm

At the price this could be a game changer. Inviting impressions and feedback on this thread.


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## sennsay

Love it! It's got everything I could want and the same DAC sections as the R2R. POWER! Blimey, over 9W into low impedances and still plenty left over for the 600 ohm cans. As beautifully built as always.


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## JaMo

Hi,

I have been waiting for this one! Just ordered one with TCXO's.

/Jan


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## iamjaymo

Well it’s not a compact AIO that’s for sure.


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## Nickol

gLer said:


> Hey guys,
> Audio-Gd has just released a very unique product that combines a fully balanced discrete NOS/OS ladder dac with a super-powerful balanced and SE headamp and preamp.



Well done, gLer, that posted a thread!

Very tasty product for a competitive price. Well done Audio-Gd!
If I had more free money, I would buy it. .....but i hadn't ....that's a pity...


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## VintageFlanker (Jun 14, 2018)

Subscribed.

This is a bit weird while few month ago Kingwa said there were no plans to release a combo unit with R2R Modules...

(Ordered my NFB-11.38 Ltd Edition, by the way)


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## gLer

VintageFlanker said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> This is a bit weird while few month ago Kingwa said there were no plans to release a combo unit with R2R Modules...
> 
> (Ordered my NFB-11.38 Ltd Edition, by the way)


Yes indeed! This came as a total surprise to me as well. Kingwa did say it was because there was no way to fit the balanced modules along with an amp into an NFB-28 enclosure. I’m glad he found a solution - it ticks every single box I have for an endgame all-in-one, plus a few extras.


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## VintageFlanker

gLer said:


> Kingwa did say it was because there was no way to fit the balanced modules along with an amp into an NFB-28 enclosure.



Yep... That could explain why the R2R-28 is much larger than a NFB-28/29!


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## gLer

VintageFlanker said:


> Yep... That could explain why the R2R-28 is much larger than a NFB-28/29!


It does indeed. I think it’s the perfect size actually. Looks like a mini Master - just without the bulk of the Master series. And I like the small refinements, like colour-matched screws. Definitely one of the more refined looking AGD products. If it sounds as good as the other 1-series products it’s going to be a real winner! (Kingwa told me it will have the same sound quality as the NFB-1/R2R-1 stack, just with fewer input and output options).


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## spacequeen7

Looks good 
@ gLer ..how's DSD playback on this monstrosity ?


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## Astral Abyss

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been waiting for this one! Just ordered one with TCXO's.
> 
> /Jan



So, what's the "all-in" price with the TCXOs, Paypal, and shipping?  Looks like it's a hefty $83 to ship this to the US... ouch.
I'm tempted to replace my S-19 and C-2 combo.


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## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> Looks good
> @ gLer ..how's DSD playback on this monstrosity ?


Hi - not sure, it was only announced yesterday! As far as I know only Kingwa has heard it 

If I were to guess, I’d say it’s probably as good as the R2R-1 for DSD playback, which by most accounts is excellent. I’ll let you know if and when I get to hear it for myself.


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## gLer

Astral Abyss said:


> So, what's the "all-in" price with the TCXOs, Paypal, and shipping?  Looks like it's a hefty $83 to ship this to the US... ouch.
> I'm tempted to replace my S-19 and C-2 combo.


Not sure, but $83 isn’t too bad when you consider the size and weight of this beast. It’s not a Master, but it’s not far off! 

Can’t wait for folks to start receiving theirs so we can get stuck into real impressions...


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## sumpao

I just bough NFB11.38 If I know this guy would come out I should buy this guy instead


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## gLer

sumpao said:


> I just bough NFB11.38 If I know this guy would come out I should buy this guy instead


Yes it was a total surprise. I was about to buy the NFB-1/R2R-1 stack. Glad I didn’t! 

That said the R-28 is about $650 more than the NFB-11.38, so not exactly the same price range or product class. Totally different sound as well - Delta Sigma vs Ladder dac. A better comparison would be the R2R-11 and R-28.


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## peterzzz

gLer said:


> Yes it was a total surprise. I was about to buy the NFB-1/R2R-1 stack. Glad I didn’t!



Dang.. I _did_ just buy them. This R2R-28 looks really pretty, but I suppose I'll just have to live with the separates.


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## gLer

peterzzz said:


> Dang.. I _did_ just buy them. This R2R-28 looks really pretty, but I suppose I'll just have to live with the separates.


Don’t feel bad. I just like the idea of a compact all in one, and the R-28 doesn’t seem to make any compromises either. But the separates stack is going to be awesome, and you get more flexibility with it as well.


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## FredA

VintageFlanker said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> This is a bit weird while few month ago Kingwa said there were no plans to release a combo unit with R2R Modules...
> 
> (Ordered my NFB-11.38 Ltd Edition, by the way)


I knew he would because the demand would become too strong. But it sure was a design challenge to do the layout. It's a complex device thst looks clean.


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## Currawong

Given that it has analog inputs, shouldn't this be in the Headphone amps forum?

It looks like being about a transformer less than the R2R 1 and NFB-1AMP combined.


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## gLer

Currawong said:


> Given that it has analog inputs, shouldn't this be in the Headphone amps forum?
> 
> It looks like being about a transformer less than the R2R 1 and NFB-1AMP combined.


Hi @Currawong. You’re probably right, although arguably the balanced ladder dac is just as much the star of the show. That said, happy for mods to move it - I’m not sure how?

By the by, what do you make of it? Looks every bit as good, on paper, as the stack you describe above, with the added benefit of true gain mode, and the super SE output is very interesting indeed.


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## Currawong

I think the full-power SE output is a key feature for sure.  The other is the price point.  In the past, the mid-range DAC/amps from Audio-gd were pretty good-performing, so it remains to be seen if this one can do as well at a higher price point.


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## alota

this amplifier is really interesting. i had r2r-15 that was a really best buy for the price


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## DaaDaa

Currawong said:


> Given that it has analog inputs, shouldn't this be in the Headphone amps forum?
> 
> It looks like being about a transformer less than the R2R 1 and NFB-1AMP combined.


i hope that thevchanges to the sound signature of the amp section arevbeyond just putting the two togwther. the dac sectionvisvperfect so yes i =m glad thatvit is  full in r2r1 in there


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## gLer

Dadbeh said:


> i hope that thevchanges to the sound signature of the amp section arevbeyond just putting the two togwther. the dac sectionvisvperfect so yes i =m glad thatvit is  full in r2r1 in there


Hi, do you find anything lacking in the NFB-1 that you want more?


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## DaaDaa

nothing lacking. it is a tremendous bargain for the features and functionality. its a beauty. the sound signature was not to my liking. i prefered the listen to most of my cans through r2r11 rather than nfb1 but i tend to prefer overly warm sound signatures. what people call neutral i call soul crushing harsh. so its just me.


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## xenithon

I also tend to prefer warm over neutral, provided it doesn’t sacrifice too much transparency and detail. 

Having said that, the 28 is quite adjustable through the jumpers including full NOS mode (though that speaks to the dac section, the warmth should translate through the amp section).


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## jimmychan

It looks like it has room to fit in two transformers. I prefer two transformers if Kingwa can provide the options.


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## JoeDoe

Subbed! Was hoping a combo unit was in the works after seeing the balanced and SE single components developed! Love my little R2R 11. Can only assume what the biggest brother is capable of! Must resist the urge to purchase... must resist!


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## alota

jimmychan said:


> It looks like it has room to fit in two transformers. I prefer two transformers if Kingwa can provide the options.


Probably the transformer is different compared to the transformer in the dac or amp. In the picture of the interior you have a lot of psu


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## VintageFlanker

jimmychan said:


> I prefer two transformers if Kingwa can provide the options.


He won't. Not a chance he will redesign the entire PSU for add another transformer...The PSU already seems pretty solid!


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## Suppa92

Subscribed


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## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> Don’t feel bad. I just like the idea of a compact all in one, and the R-28 doesn’t seem to make any compromises either. But the separates stack is going to be awesome, and you get more flexibility with it as well.



At the price the NFB-1 + R2R 1 stack is an audio bargain of note, and is the way I would consider going rather than the AIO route.
I prefer seperate PSU's and the awesome flexibility that the stack offers.

I can fully appreciate the appeal of the R-28 to those preferring the neat and tidy approach.
I like going up rather than sideways though! 

Looking forward to some hands-on feedback on this beast!


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## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> At the price the NFB-1 + R2R 1 stack is an audio bargain of note, and is the way I would consider going rather than the AIO route.
> I prefer seperate PSU's and the awesome flexibility that the stack offers.
> 
> I can fully appreciate the appeal of the R-28 to those preferring the neat and tidy approach.
> ...


Until the R-28 was announced (and don’t forget it’s been less than a week) I was of the same mind - going up (from an AIO like the R2R-11) meant getting a separate high-powered balanced amp and dac. That’s still a reasonable position, and there are advantages to separates no doubt. But to my mind (and for my purposes) the R-28 looks to be, even at this early stage, a gamechanger. A no-compromise AIO that actually *improves* on the separates it combines. 

Now we wait to see if it lives up to its promise, and if it does, game over.


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## DaaDaa (Jun 17, 2018)

really instead of conjecture only listening will really tell us. because clean power (and therefore power supply) is very important to the SQ but also shortening the signal path as a result of going AIO so really depends on the implementation. i cant wait to give it a listen and hope for a sound signature like the r2r11


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## FredA (Jun 17, 2018)

gLer said:


> Until the R-28 was announced (and don’t forget it’s been less than a week) I was of the same mind - going up (from an AIO like the R2R-11) meant getting a separate high-powered balanced amp and dac. That’s still a reasonable position, and there are advantages to separates no doubt. But to my mind (and for my purposes) the R-28 looks to be, even at this early stage, a gamechanger. A no-compromise AIO that actually *improves* on the separates it combines.
> 
> Now we wait to see if it lives up to its promise, and if it does, game over.


There is at least a new feature: same output power single-ended and balanced. Ant the transfo is a 50w or bigger, not sure. I think there is a very good chance it will be awesome. To get a signature similar to the r2r 11, one will need to use it in nos mode.i expect it won't be exactly the same.


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## Currawong

I think a lot of it will come down to the headphone amp section.


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## VintageFlanker

Currawong said:


> I think a lot of it will come down to the headphone amp section.


I published a R-28 thread on French Forum "Tellement Nomade" in the amp section, due to the analog inputs.


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## Astral Abyss

Hmmm, 5% off sale going on right now for "finished products".  Wonder if that includes the R-28?


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## capetownwatches

Astral Abyss said:


> Hmmm, 5% off sale going on right now for "finished products".  Wonder if that includes the R-28?



Email Kingwa and ask. Let us all know...


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## Astral Abyss

capetownwatches said:


> Email Kingwa and ask. Let us all know...



Well, I guess there's no need.  He's updating the website to include all the costs pre-calculated with different options and shipping.  It's happening right now.
By my calculations, the R-28 price quote now listed on the audio-gd website of $1150 shipped to USA, w/TCXO upgrade, does indeed include the 5% discount.  It would be about $1200 without the discount, if my maths are correct.


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## JoeDoe

Astral Abyss said:


> Well, I guess there's no need.  He's updating the website to include all the costs pre-calculated with different options and shipping.  It's happening right now.
> By my calculations, the R-28 price quote now listed on the audio-gd website of $1150 shipped to USA, w/TCXO upgrade, does indeed include the 5% discount.  It would be about $1200 without the discount, if my maths are correct.



Right you are! I know from experience...


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## XIST_

Really debating getting this, but also considering the NFB 29.38. Going to mostly use SE but might buy a balanced cable for my HD800S (I bought used so it didn't come with one). Also planning on using IEM (hopefully the Andromeda soon) with it. Anyone have any insight?


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## FredA

The r-28 is more versatile. Also it really depends on whether you prefer prefer the r2r or the delta-sigma sound. But as i often mention,  if you can do a software conversion to dsd on the fly, the audio-gd r2r dacs will sound like delta-sigmas. And you have 3 nos modes to choose from on top of that.


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## Wilddude

Can any give me an idea of how much improvement would be seen with the R2R-28 vs the R2R-11? Would there be a truly noticeable improvement with the substantially higher costs system?


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## FredA

Wilddude said:


> Can any give me an idea of how much improvement would be seen with the R2R-28 vs the R2R-11? Would there be a truly noticeable improvement with the substantially higher costs system?


You will get better dynamics, sharper attacks. A better soundstage as well.  But you most likely will need a very good transport to extract the best out of it. The beauty of the r2r 11 is it sound amazing through the on-board usb input. The signal path is not as direct with the dacs with a dsp board. So you need a source with very low noise level and jitter level to maximize sound quality. At least, that is the case with the r2r 7. The r2r-1 and r-28 should  be somewhere in between.


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## Wilddude

My transport is a mac-mini either via USB or optical. I think the optical is a bit better with noise. I have been communicating with Audio-GD and they keep emphasising the value of balanced output. However I am sure I will want to experiment with trying with home speaker set up (NAD T785 AV amplifier going to Kef LS50s + Rel T3 subwoofer) which would require RCA outputs so not balanced (at least that is the gist of what I understand from the emails). I wonder if without balanced advantages if there difference between would be less as well?


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## gLer

FredA said:


> The r-28 is more versatile. Also it really depends on whether you prefer prefer the r2r or the delta-sigma sound. But as i often mention,  if you can do a software conversion to dsd on the fly, the audio-gd r2r dacs will sound like delta-sigmas. And you have 3 nos modes to choose from on top of that.


That’s interesting - can you tell us more about DSD conversion on the fly and why this would make a difference to the sound?


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## PopZeus

If balanced outs are a non-starter, what about the R2R 2? You can get any number of amps to pair along with it.


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## gLer

FredA said:


> You will get better dynamics, sharper attacks. A better soundstage as well.  But you most likely will need a very good transport to extract the best out of it. The beauty of the r2r 11 is it sound amazing through the on-board usb input. The signal path is not as direct with the dacs with a dsp board. So you need a source with very low noise level and jitter level to maximize sound quality. At least, that is the case with the r2r 7. The r2r-1 and r-28 should  be somewhere in between.


What do you consider a good transport that minimizes noise and jitter? Is it advisable to get a USB to I2S convertor and use the I2S input instead of USB? I read somewhere that the Amanero 384 Combo module is in fact a USB to I2S/DSD converter in itself - not sure how true that is though or how Kingwa has implemented it in his recent dacs.


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## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> What do you consider a good transport that minimizes noise and jitter? Is it advisable to get a USB to I2S convertor and use the I2S input instead of USB? I read somewhere that the Amanero 384 Combo module is in fact a USB to I2S/DSD converter in itself - not sure how true that is though or how Kingwa has implemented it in his recent dacs.



Amanero 384 is a TOTL USB interface. Properly implemented (as it is in the R2R11 and most other AGD gear) there would be nothing to be gained by adding a further interface/converter IMHO.

*K*eep* I*t *S*imple* S*......


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## gLer (Jun 19, 2018)

capetownwatches said:


> Amanero 384 is a TOTL USB interface. Properly implemented (as it is in the R2R11 and most other AGD gear) there would be nothing to be gained by adding a further interface/converter IMHO.
> 
> *K*eep* I*t *S*imple* S*......


So I take it he’s not using this part then:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...l-interface-usb-384khz-to-i2s-dsd-p-7403.html

That would also explain how the ladder dacs process native DSD - via the Amanero card. Although, since the R-28 has a separate I2S input, I guess it wouldn’t make sense to have two I2S inputs, even if one is converted, unless that’s a design decision to maximize signal purity.

Just asking - I couldn’t get a straight answer from Kingwa on this. Maybe @Currawong could shed some light on it.

Edit: this is also the only card listed on http://amanero.com


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## Wilddude

PopZeus said:


> If balanced outs are a non-starter, what about the R2R 2? You can get any number of amps to pair along with it.


For use with NAD T785 which only has RCA input
Kingwa wrote;
"R2R1 and R2R 2 with RCA output had same level" which I think means that the same level of sound quality so my thoughts are that for the extra $65 dollars better to get balanced option in case I upgrade later.. but then for $238 - I get preamp. Which is how I ended up wondering if 3X the cost of the R2R11 would really be that much better. I generally am an optimiser (rather than a satisfier) so perhaps am better off buying more expensive option rather than later wishing I had gone for the better sounding DAC/preamplifier/headphone amplifier.


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## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> So I take it he’s not using this part then:
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...l-interface-usb-384khz-to-i2s-dsd-p-7403.html
> 
> ...



This:


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## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> This:


That looks more familiar indeed. Where did you find this?


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## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> That looks more familiar indeed. Where did you find this?



http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


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## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


Seems I was right - it does convert USB to I2S. See here: 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...l-interface-usb-384khz-to-i2sdsd-p-10134.html

Also direct from your link:

*Output Format :*
       I2S 32bit or DSD64,DSD128 (Native mode and DOP mode) - On Windows DSD256,DSD512 too


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## FredA

gLer said:


> What do you consider a good transport that minimizes noise and jitter? Is it advisable to get a USB to I2S convertor and use the I2S input instead of USB? I read somewhere that the Amanero 384 Combo module is in fact a USB to I2S/DSD converter in itself - not sure how true that is though or how Kingwa has implemented it in his recent dacs.



Perhaps the Eitr can do it using a decent digital cable. Or the Singxer su-1 using i2s but then galvanic isolation may have to be added for best perfo.

The general ideas are:

1. You need to isolate from the pc, so galvanic isolation is a key feature. Ideally, you should plug your pc away from the audio gears to avoid contamination of the ac line but if you do so, you need galvanic isolation to avoid a ground loop, assuming usb or i2s is used. With spdif, the groud loop is not possible because of the output or input transfos that are normally used on this type of connection. Another possibility is to take the pc out of the equation.

2. Jitter can only be reduced to some extent by the reclocking circuit. The more accurate your dac is, the more impact jitter will have. With a very accurate dac like the r2r 7,  jitter has a significant impact on sound. Sound vary with power quality quite siginificantly when conditioning is not done.

All this is more relevant to the r2r 7 than to the r2r 1/2.

Still, you may be satisfied with the amanero. It's very good.


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## gLer

FredA said:


> Perhaps the Eitr can do it using a decent digital cable. Or the Singxer su-1 using i2s but then galvanic isolation may have to be added for best perfo.
> 
> The general ideas are:
> 
> ...


The only issue with the Eitr is that you lose native DSD support. I use an ifi iSilencer 3 that reduces USB power supply noise by up to 40dB, reduces jitter and rebalances the USB signal - all before it gets to the Amanero input, which is then converted internally to I2S (32-bit PCM) and DSD.

I reckon if my signal is still noisy after that there’s a bigger problem somewhere


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## FredA (Jun 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> That’s interesting - can you tell us more about DSD conversion on the fly and why this would make a difference to the sound?


Because in my understanding, dsd is played back the way a delta-sigma dac would do it.  The switching frequency is increased to that of the dsd stream on the dac boards. In fact, the audio-gd r2r dacs are like 2-in-one dacs. If they supported on the fly conversion on the internal dsp, you  would not even consider buying a delta-sigma dac because you would litterally have one. Many sw like audirvana on Mac allows doing this conversion.


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## gLer

FredA said:


> Because in my understanding, dsd is played back the way a delta-sigma dac would do it.  The switching frequency is increased to that of the dsd stream on the dac boards. In fact, the audio-gd r2r dacs are like 2-in-one dacs. If they supported on the fly conversion on the internal dsp, you  would not even consider buying a delta-sigma dac because you would litterally have one. Many sw like audirvana on Mac allows doing this conversion.


Ah so you mean DSD to PCM conversion on the fly? That way the R2R is getting a PCM stream which it plays back natively. 

Since the R-28 has a discrete DSD playback chip on the Amanero board, is software conversion even necessary?


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## FredA (Jun 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> Ah so you mean DSD to PCM conversion on the fly? That way the R2R is getting a PCM stream which it plays back natively.
> 
> Since the R-28 has a discrete DSD playback chip on the Amanero board, is software conversion even necessary?


No, the opposite. The audio-gd dac do no conversion as opposed to a Sabre dac that converts pcm to dsd. If Kingwa offered optional on-dac conversion to dsd, it would be like having both a delta-sigma dac and a r2r dac.


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## gLer

FredA said:


> No, the opposite. The audio-gd dac do no conversion as opposed to a Sabre dac that converts pcm to dsd. If Kingwa offered optional on-dac conversion to dsd, like Sabre dacs do. it would be like having both a delta-sigma dac and a r2r dac.


Don’t mean to be difficult but I think you may have this confused. An R2R ladder dac (multibit) can’t natively play DSD (1-bit) files. So the AGD R2R dacs have a native DSD decoder on the Amanero board. 

Ladder/multibit dacs natively support PCM, so if you convert DSD to PCM the ladder dac is getting a native PCM signal. That’s why PCM typically sounds better on a ladder dac than a (previously converted) DSD. 

This is the same reason the Holo Cyan DSD version does not actually have discrete ladder resistors, but rather a native DSD decoder, while the Holo Cyan PCM version is a discrete ladder dac like the R-28.


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## FredA

gLer said:


> Don’t mean to be difficult but I think you may have this confused. An R2R ladder dac (multibit) can’t natively play DSD (1-bit) files. So the AGD R2R dacs have a native DSD decoder on the Amanero board.
> 
> Ladder/multibit dacs natively support PCM, so if you convert DSD to PCM the ladder dac is getting a native PCM signal. That’s why PCM typically sounds better on a ladder dac than a (previously converted) DSD.
> 
> This is the same reason the Holo Cyan DSD version does not actually have discrete ladder resistors, but rather a native DSD decoder, while the Holo Cyan PCM version is a discrete ladder dac like the R-28.


No. Not true. The r2r boards (da-8 and da-7) can play dsd natively.


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## dfarina

Could be a terrific all in one unit,looking forward to some feedback and reviews.If it sounds as good as its specs I will strongly consider the purchase.


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## thebkt

gLer said:


> What do you consider a good transport that minimizes noise and jitter? Is it advisable to get a USB to I2S convertor and use the I2S input instead of USB? I read somewhere that the Amanero 384 Combo module is in fact a USB to I2S/DSD converter in itself - not sure how true that is though or how Kingwa has implemented it in his recent dacs.


  I have an R2R-1 with the USB Isolator as well as an Eitr.  I heard a noticeable jump in quality when using the Eitr in tandem with my Mimby. On the other hand, I hear no difference in quality at all between the Eitr and USB input with the R2R-1.  

I can't speak for the stock Amanero interface (without USB Isolator), but with the upgrade I absolutely wouldn't spend the money on an Eitr or other signal cleaner.


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## FredA (Jun 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> Don’t mean to be difficult but I think you may have this confused. An R2R ladder dac (multibit) can’t natively play DSD (1-bit) files. So the AGD R2R dacs have a native DSD decoder on the Amanero board.
> 
> Ladder/multibit dacs natively support PCM, so if you convert DSD to PCM the ladder dac is getting a native PCM signal. That’s why PCM typically sounds better on a ladder dac than a (previously converted) DSD.
> 
> This is the same reason the Holo Cyan DSD version does not actually have discrete ladder resistors, but rather a native DSD decoder, while the Holo Cyan PCM version is a discrete ladder dac like the R-28.


In fact, a dsd dac is basicallly just playing pulses at a very high frequency. Then these get low-passed filtered. It's possible to switch the ladder fast enough to play pulses and replicate what the delta-sigma chips do. The latest delta-sigma play pulses with different heights; that can be done with the ladder as well. A delta-sigma chip is more complex as it has to convert pcm to dsd.


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## gLer

FredA said:


> In fact, a dsd dac is basicallly just playing pulses at a very high frequency. Then these get low-passed filtered. It's possible to switch the ladder fast enough to play pulses and replicate what the delta-sigma chips do. The latest delta-sigma play pulses with different heights; that can be done with the ladder as well. A delta-sigma chip is more complex as it has to convert pcm to dsd.


And here I thought a ladder dac was the more complex and expensive option, which is why you see so few good ones on the market (and why people go crazy when they’re made affordable and accessible like the R2R-11). But admittedly my knowledge of all this dac technology is not very advanced, so I think I’m just going to go with the old adage: if it sounds great, it is great


----------



## J Mirra

I do not own or heard the HD600 but to add about the mids on the R2R 11, my T1.1 used to have a harsh tone every now and again based on recordings on other gear but now with the R2R 11 they are impeccable.

I wait for the recording to hand me that harshness I have heard many times before but no the vocals and instruments in that frequency band are really nice and the highs are just right so clear but never fatiguing on high gain.

I might suggest changing the high / low gain switch to see if that helps any.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> And here I thought a ladder dac was the more complex and expensive option, which is why you see so few good ones on the market (and why people go crazy when they’re made affordable and accessible like the R2R-11). But admittedly my knowledge of all this dac technology is not very advanced, so I think I’m just going to go with the old adage: if it sounds great, it is great


Yes it is indeed.


----------



## Currawong

FredA said:


> No, the opposite. The audio-gd dac do no conversion as opposed to a Sabre dac that converts pcm to dsd. If Kingwa offered optional on-dac conversion to dsd, it would be like having both a delta-sigma dac and a r2r dac.



I wouldn't describe an SD DAC as one that converts PCM to DSD. DSD is an entire digital music encapsulation format.


----------



## FredA (Jun 21, 2018)

Currawong said:


> I wouldn't describe an SD DAC as one that converts PCM to DSD. DSD is an entire digital music encapsulation format.


i just meant the audio-gd dacs with discrete ladder can do both dsd and pcm natively as opposed to pretty much everything else on the market, as far as i know. These are probably some other dacs like this out there though. The delta-sigma chips can't do pcm natively so they convert it to dsd.


----------



## FredA

Well the Denafrips terminator does it as well. On a separate ladder. Audio-gd does it on the same one i would assume. Could be wrong.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Well the Denafrips terminator does it as well. On a separate ladder. Audio-gd does it on the same one i would assume. Could be wrong.


@Currawong it would be great if you can discuss this issue of how and where the R-28 does its ‘native’ DSD and PCM decoding and playback when you do your R-28 review (or preview). Really looking forward to that one! Any idea when you’re getting one?


----------



## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> @Currawong it would be great if you can discuss this issue of how and where the R-28 does its ‘native’ DSD and PCM decoding and playback when you do your R-28 review (or preview). Really looking forward to that one! Any idea when you’re getting one?



+1 

It seems to me that AGD is really at the forefront of this type of DAC design and implementation. 
Don't for a moment underestimate what Kingwa has done with the R2R11.

Their top of the range DACs are legitimately state of the art as well.


----------



## Currawong

gLer said:


> @Currawong it would be great if you can discuss this issue of how and where the R-28 does its ‘native’ DSD and PCM decoding and playback when you do your R-28 review (or preview). Really looking forward to that one! Any idea when you’re getting one?



As soon as the current batch gets off the testing rack.   I'll ask Kingwa about DSD decoding.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> @Currawong it would be great if you can discuss this issue of how and where the R-28 does its ‘native’ DSD and PCM decoding and playback when you do your R-28 review (or preview). Really looking forward to that one! Any idea when you’re getting one?


Well Kingwa states it on his website: pcm and dsd are supported natively. I  trust Kingwa and know by experience that when switching to dsd, there is a subtle noise in the transition indicating an increased operation frequency. Another clue is the sound is totally different. Would not be the case with a conversion to pcm. These clues are enough for me to draw a conclusion.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> As soon as the current batch gets off the testing rack.   I'll ask Kingwa about DSD decoding.


Thanks that would be great! I’ve asked before but didn’t manage to decode his response. He is super responsive though, would be an honour to meet him one day.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Well Kingwa states it on his website: pcm and dsd are supported natively. I  trust Kingwa and know by experience that when switching to dsd, there is a subtle noise in the transition indicating an increased operation frequency. Another clue is the sound is totally different. Would not be the case with a conversion to pcm. These clues are enough for me to draw a conclusion.


I have no doubt DSD and PCM are processed differently, it would just be interesting to understand exactly how it’s done in the R-28 and the other AGD ladder dacs. I do know the Amanero board is responsible for DSD ‘conversion’, but where it goes from there (and in which format) is anyone’s guess. I wonder if the info is proprietary and something Kingwa would even be willing to share.

As an aside, I’m one of the R2R-11 users that pointed out the critical noise flaw in that unit’s DSD playback, which makes some but not all DSD files unplayable on the R2R-11 due to unacceptable noise levels. Won’t go into detail here as it’s not part of this thread, but hoping any such issues are non-existent on the R-28.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> I have no doubt DSD and PCM are processed differently, it would just be interesting to understand exactly how it’s done in the R-28 and the other AGD ladder dacs. I do know the Amanero board is responsible for DSD ‘conversion’, but where it goes from there (and in which format) is anyone’s guess. I wonder if the info is proprietary and something Kingwa would even be willing to share.
> 
> As an aside, I’m one of the R2R-11 users that pointed out the critical noise flaw in that unit’s DSD playback, which makes some but not all DSD files unplayable on the R2R-11 due to unacceptable noise levels. Won’t go into detail here as it’s not part of this thread, but hoping any such issues are non-existent on the R-28.


Amanero passes dsd through. Does not convert as far as specifications mention. So you are left with either the da-7 or da-8 board doing a conversion or not. I know they dont't. But i am interested in the details as well.


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## FredA

Could also be the dsp doing the job for dacs that have it. But it's not. To different a sound.


----------



## xenithon

A few points to consider in this interesting discussion:
- There is a difference between DSD "decoding" and DSD "transport" as the two are often confused. The transport can be a native to the chip where it is decoded, or it can be DSD encapsulated in a PCM stream (DoP)
- An R2R chip cannot, as far as I know, do _both _the DSD and PCM conversion to analog. These are typically always separate - ranging from the likes of a Denafrips Ares (R2R DAC for PCM and proprietary 6-bit ladder DAC for native DSD), through to something like a Holo Audio Cyan (which has either a PCM module and headamp module, or a PCM module and DSD DAC module - the DAC doing the conversion for PCM and DSD are different)
- Where confusion can also be created is that manufacturer's typically do not specify _where _the conversion takes place, whether it be native or not. So if DSD is natively converted by the Amanero board, it can still be labeled as doing native DSD


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## wietschebehr (Jun 21, 2018)

Subscribed. This is about to get interesting! 

NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.

My opinion so far is that the NFB-1 is a stellar amp. I do however miss that warmer and sightly bass biased sound of the R2R-11. I am not sure if it was the AMP or DAC section of the R2R-11 (or maybe the combo's integrated design) that gave it that property. The R2R-11 DAC output to another amp did not quite have that same sound signature, if I can remember correctly..

*So I have some questions* - can someone describe the sound of the latest R2R dacs from Audio-gd, and, is it possible that the R2R-1 and R-28 DACs will inject that warmer magical analog sound I remember from the R2R-11 into my amplifier and ears?

Cheers,
W


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## FredA (Jun 21, 2018)

xenithon said:


> A few points to consider in this interesting discussion:
> - There is a difference between DSD "decoding" and DSD "transport" as the two are often confused. The transport can be a native to the chip where it is decoded, or it can be DSD encapsulated in a PCM stream (DoP)
> - An R2R chip cannot, as far as I know, do _both _the DSD and PCM conversion to analog. These are typically always separate - ranging from the likes of a Denafrips Ares (R2R DAC for PCM and proprietary 6-bit ladder DAC for native DSD), through to something like a Holo Audio Cyan (which has either a PCM module and headamp module, or a PCM module and DSD DAC module - the DAC doing the conversion for PCM and DSD are different)
> - Where confusion can also be created is that manufacturer's typically do not specify _where _the conversion takes place, whether it be native or not. So if DSD is natively converted by the Amanero board, it can still be labeled as doing native DSD


A ladder can do dsd playback if switched fast enough. It has to be designed to respond fast enough to be switched in the MHz. Denafrips does it with a 6-bit ladder, still a ladder.
The amenero does no dsd conversion to pcm (don't count dsd over pcm as pcm, i don't think it does that either).. The r2r 7 and r2r 1 support dsd through i2s, so forget the amanero for them. Dsd converted to pcm sounds like pcm. Dsd makes my dac sounds like a delta-sigma. Native dsd playback being stated as a feature in a product description can't mean anything other than an actual dsd playback handled by the conversion board/chip as such.


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## capetownwatches

wietschebehr said:


> Subscribed. This is about to get interesting!
> 
> NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.
> 
> ...


Hi Wietsche! 

Nice to see you here.

Remind us again which DAC(s) you are currently using with the NFB1?


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## FredA (Jun 21, 2018)

wietschebehr said:


> Subscribed. This is about to get interesting!
> 
> NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.
> 
> ...


The interconnect you choose has a significant impact on the signature you get. This being said, maybe the r2r 1 used in nos mode could be close enough with a properly chosen cable. Email Kingwa. For one thing, my r2r 7 combined to the nfb-1amp sounds even warmer than the r2r 11 because of the hp extension cablei use. The main thing you will get going up the ladder is a more dynamic sound. At first, i liked the r2r 11 even more than my r2r-7/nfb-1amp stack. But now that i am finished with the tweaking, the stack is safely on top, as it should.


----------



## FredA

Just one thing missing on the r-28: a mode swtich to go from NOS to OS mode. Really nice feature the r2r 1 and r2r 2 have.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Just one thing missing on the r-28: a mode swtich to go from NOS to OS mode. Really nice feature the r2r 1 and r2r 2 have.


This is true, although all the modes are still available via jumpers. I guess they had to leave something out!


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## wietschebehr

capetownwatches said:


> Hi Wietsche!
> 
> Nice to see you here.
> 
> Remind us again which DAC(s) you are currently using with the NFB1?




Hi A!

Yes! Same here!

Well, I had/have a range of DACs connected to the NFB1, comparing and swapping out extensively. Schiit Modi Multibit, NuPrime uDSD, Allo Boss Player, Allo DigiOne Player (feeding other dacs), Audio-GD R2R-11 and a Breeze Audio Sabre ES9018S DSD DAC.

Currently, my favourite paring with NFB1 Amp are the following: 

Allo DigiOne Player feeding the Breeze Audio DAC via COAX for a very detailed but brighter sound, and this is lovely on acoustic and classical music
and then the Allo Boss Player feeding RCAs straight into the NFB1 that gives the lovely warm full bodied Burr Brown sound that I prefer more for long listening sessions and to get lost with my favorite female vocal artists.
@FredA: Thanks for your inputs, very much appreciated. The above 2 options use exactly the same interconnects that I have extensively tested to have the same sound and compared them to some serious snake oil cables and some top quality Cardas and Mogami cables that sounded exactly the same. These cables are so short (30cm) that I also think it makes minor differences to sound when you have at least good quality cables to start with. My intention will be to eventually connect the stack with the ACSS cables to get rid of the RCAs and the extra current to voltage conversions.

The R2R-11 had the best of the 2 options above. Detailed like with the sabre dac, but still warm and bassy sounding like the Boss. But somehow this does not carry over so nicely to the NFB1 amp when used as a DAC only. And yes it could be the interconnects as FredA pointed out.. I think its just better on its own as per main design intentions, at least in SE mode. I think it was driving my headphones at least as good as the NFB1 in SE mode.

I believe that it is possible for the R2R-1 with its easy filter/mode switching to be able to replace all my DAC options at once and be my final DAC. But I am not yet sure of this and reluctant to fork out my hard earned cash for it. Shipping to our country wrecks havoc to the value proposition of most imports due to various reasons... So it should be a clear upgrade and immediately noticeable, or its not worth it for me. Its just a pity that good reviews and impressions/comparisons of these 2 Audio-GD R2R DACs are so scarce. I can't wait for someone like Currawong to pull the R2R-1 and R-28 apart and delve deeply into them for a review and reputation I can trust. 

So I am very keen to hear any R2R-1 and R-28 news and impressions/comparisons.

Thanks guys! I never manage to keep it short... but its almost weekend!

Cheers,
W


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## FredA (Jun 21, 2018)

wietschebehr said:


> Hi A!
> 
> Yes! Same here!
> 
> ...


If you nfb-1 is still new, it could gain some treble with time. I use a slightly bright cable with mine: audio art ic-3 in balanced version. Good choice if you need to boost the treble a bit. And cheap enough. Needs 150 hours of burning... Ms-audio (ebay) has very good, even better cables for not much more. The litz struture silver cable is excellent.


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## wietschebehr

FredA said:


> If you nfb-1 is still new, it could gain some treble with time. I use a slightly bright cable with mine: audio art ic-3 in balanced version. Good choice if you need to boost the treble a bit. And cheap enough.



Yes, its still very new. Will keep that in mind thanks.


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## twocentsear (Jun 22, 2018)

To anyone who owns or has owned an AudioGD amp, is fine to use them for basically almost 12 hours of constant use every day?


----------



## JaMo

twocentsear said:


> To anyone who owns or has owned an AudioGD amp, is fine to use them for basically almost 12 hours of constant use every day?



Hi, 
Oh yes, I run my Audio-gd amps; Master 2's and Master 3 for 24h except when I'm on trips. In fact, I have reduced the use of electric heaters/radiators at home.

/Jan


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> If you nfb-1 is still new, it could gain some treble with time. I use a slightly bright cable with mine: audio art ic-3 in balanced version. Good choice if you need to boost the treble a bit. And cheap enough. Needs 150 hours of burning... Ms-audio (ebay) has very good, even better cables for not much more. The litz struture silver cable is excellent.


The advantage of an AIO like the R-28 is that these interconnect variables are completely removed from the equation. It’s then all about the synergy between amp and dac, and how many options you have to tweak the sound. Of course with the R-28 you’re able to expand your options with external amps and dacs (and interconnects) so you’re never really limited to using it as an AIO. As a foundation for a high-end head-fi system I can’t think of any other device anywhere near its price range that comes close in terms of power, features, flexibility and expandability. Here’s hoping the SQ measures up and I think we’re all in for a treat.


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## capetownwatches

twocentsear said:


> To anyone who owns or has owned an AudioGD amp, is fine to use them for basically almost 12 hours of constant use every day?



Many users leave them on 24/7 - I leave my NFB11.32 powered up for days at a time, only really switch off when I know it won't be used for a day or two.
I have raised my amp on taller feet for additional cooling, and it never gets more than warm.

Kingwa told me it is perfectly fine to keep my amp powered on for a week at a time - it's designed to be used.


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## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> Many users leave them on 24/7 - I leave my NFB11.32 powered up for days at a time, only really switch off when I know it won't be used for a day or two.
> I have raised my amp on taller feet for additional cooling, and it never gets more than warm.
> 
> Kingwa told me it is perfectly fine to keep my amp powered on for a week at a time - it's designed to be used.


I never switch my R2R-11 off. Not sure if that’s good practice or not. And not sure what is good for the higher end gear. I do know the amps sound better when they’ve been on for a couple of hours. I read somewhere the Master series sounds best after it’s been on for a couple of days!


----------



## sumpao

Hey did anybody know what is?

Volume characteristic
　 100 steps Super Exponential Volume Characteristic

I not used to this kind of wording.

Did they will affect sound quality.

Due to if we go pass 80% it will bring distortion ? due to it exponential?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Hey did anybody know what is?
> 
> Volume characteristic
> 100 steps Super Exponential Volume Characteristic
> ...


It means the volume pot is not linear, so when you’re at 50 on the dial (or at least in the display because it’s an electronic relay) you’re not at 50% power (you’re at 50% closer to 80 on the display, and it quickly ramps up - exponentially - from there). 

There’s a graph on the Audio-Gd website that shows you how this works. It has nothing to do with distortion - given how powerful this amp is your headphones will distort and probably explode long before you reach full power...


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> It means the volume pot is not linear, so when you’re at 50 on the dial (or at least in the display because it’s an electronic relay) you’re not at 50% power (you’re at 50% closer to 80 on the display, and it quickly ramps up - exponentially - from there).
> 
> There’s a graph on the Audio-Gd website that shows you how this works. It has nothing to do with distortion - given how powerful this amp is your headphones will distort and probably explode long before you reach full power...




So you mean it kind of too powerful for headphone amp and as a preamp too?

What my concern is in matching them with power amp

thanks


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> So you mean it kind of too powerful for headphone amp and as a preamp too?
> 
> What my concern is in matching them with power amp
> 
> thanks


No, I mean it has plenty of power on tap. Also it can function as a preamp or dac direct, so you can decide how much power you’re sending to your power amp. That is, if you’re connecting it to a power amp or powered speakers, you’d likely set it to dac direct via the balanced or RCA outs and feed your amp/power speakers a fixed voltage. You would then change the volume on your power amp or speakers (the volume pot on the R-28 would be disabled in this mode). 

I’m probably not explaining it as well as I could, but rest assured it’s not TOO powerful (unless you’re trying to drive very sensitive IEMs, in which case an amp like this is overkill anyway).


----------



## twocentsear

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> Oh yes, I run my Audio-gd amps; Master 2's and Master 3 for 24h except when I'm on trips. In fact, I have reduced the use of electric heaters/radiators at home.
> 
> /Jan





capetownwatches said:


> Many users leave them on 24/7 - I leave my NFB11.32 powered up for days at a time, only really switch off when I know it won't be used for a day or two.
> I have raised my amp on taller feet for additional cooling, and it never gets more than warm.
> 
> Kingwa told me it is perfectly fine to keep my amp powered on for a week at a time - it's designed to be used.


Thank you for the reply.

Also, I got another question (anyone's welcome to answer): Its perfectly fine I hook up the line-outs of my audio interface (since I do record and what not) to the R-28 (or like an NFB-1) and use its XLR-outs to my powered monitors, right?


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> No, I mean it has plenty of power on tap. Also it can function as a preamp or dac direct, so you can decide how much power you’re sending to your power amp. That is, if you’re connecting it to a power amp or powered speakers, you’d likely set it to dac direct via the balanced or RCA outs and feed your amp/power speakers a fixed voltage. You would then change the volume on your power amp or speakers (the volume pot on the R-28 would be disabled in this mode).
> 
> I’m probably not explaining it as well as I could, but rest assured it’s not TOO powerful (unless you’re trying to drive very sensitive IEMs, in which case an amp like this is overkill anyway).


Ok noted thanks


----------



## xenithon

twocentsear said:


> Also, I got another question (anyone's welcome to answer): Its perfectly fine I hook up the line-outs of my audio interface (since I do record and what not) to the R-28 (or like an NFB-1) and use its XLR-outs to my powered monitors, right?



It should be fine, yes. Effectively the interface passes the line-level analog signal to the R-28 / NFB-1 as normal analog input. It thus bypasses the internal DAC and goes straight to the amp section. This can then be used to send the unfettered signal to powered monitors. The only tricky bit depends on whether the powered monitors have their own volume control or if you will be using the AGD's volume control.

There is no straight answer on which is best, and it will take some experimentation to determine what sounds better to your ears, and also what is most practical from a usability point of view. If the speakers have a volume control, I would suggest using the DAC-out (line-level / non-variable) output to the speakers.


----------



## FredA

capetownwatches said:


> Many users leave them on 24/7 - I leave my NFB11.32 powered up for days at a time, only really switch off when I know it won't be used for a day or two.
> I have raised my amp on taller feet for additional cooling, and it never gets more than warm.
> 
> Kingwa told me it is perfectly fine to keep my amp powered on for a week at a time - it's designed to be used.


My dac and pre and eveything is running 24/7. The oldest gear is 4 years old. No issue, Another gear i used to own has been on for the last 7-8 years and still running great.


----------



## capetownwatches

FredA said:


> My dac and pre and eveything is running 24/7. The oldest gear is 4 years old. No issue, Another gear i used to own has been on for the last 7-8 years and still running great.



Good to know.


----------



## twocentsear

xenithon said:


> It should be fine, yes. Effectively the interface passes the line-level analog signal to the R-28 / NFB-1 as normal analog input. It thus bypasses the internal DAC and goes straight to the amp section. This can then be used to send the unfettered signal to powered monitors. The only tricky bit depends on whether the powered monitors have their own volume control or if you will be using the AGD's volume control.
> 
> There is no straight answer on which is best, and it will take some experimentation to determine what sounds better to your ears, and also what is most practical from a usability point of view. If the speakers have a volume control, I would suggest using the DAC-out (line-level / non-variable) output to the speakers.


Well, I was thinking of Interface>R28/NFB1>Powered monitors


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## wietschebehr

twocentsear said:


> Well, I was thinking of Interface>R28/NFB1>Powered monitors



That is basically how I use my NFB1. I have the Breeze DAC feeding the NFB1 and then from there I pre-out to my Woo WA3 tube amp for when I feel like tubes. It works really well. I have no doubt feeding powered monitors would work excellent. You can set the monitors at a relatively high level or where it performs at best and then use the NFB1/R28 volume knob that is based on digital control relays and is probably better for sound quality over the full range.


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## Suppa92 (Jun 22, 2018)

I assume R-28 also has a Class-A amp section (not sure whether it's mentioned in the website though)which means it generates considerable heat inside the device. doesn't that affect to the proper and accurate functionality of the dac section since accuracy or resistance of the resistors changes with the temperature & both of sections placed in a single chassis with very close proximity? (I'm not an electrical engineer. Resistance change with the temp is something I've heard from others)

images from audio-gd official website - http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN.htm


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## FredA (Jun 22, 2018)

What is most important is the temperature throughout the conversion boards be approx. uniform.


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## gLer

Suppa92 said:


> I assume R-28 also has a Class-A amp section (not sure whether it's mentioned in the website though)which means it generates considerable heat inside the device. doesn't that affect to the proper and accurate functionality of the dac section since accuracy or resistance of the resistors changes with the temperature & both of sections placed in a single chassis with very close proximity? (I'm not an electrical engineer. Resistance change with the temp is something I've heard from others)
> 
> images from audio-gd official website - http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN.htm


I’m sure these are all considerations that went into the design. Kingwa at one stage suggested he wouldn’t be able to make an all-in-one ladder dac/amp combo with an NFB-28 chassis, likely because, as you say, there’s just not enough space in there. So he did it using a substantially bigger chassis (36cm x 36cm), almost the size of a Master. 

The R-28 isn’t the first AIO discrete ladder dac/amp combo. The Holo Cyan is also a predominantly Class A-biased amp and discrete ladder dac in an even smaller chassis that weighs 5kg (R-28 weighs in at 7.5). So it can and has been done. I guess only time will tell if heat is an issue, but from what I hear from friends that have one, the NFB-1 doesn’t get too hot even when left on for very long periods.


----------



## Currawong

FredA said:


> The amenero does no dsd conversion to pcm (don't count dsd over pcm as pcm, i don't think it does that either).. The r2r 7 and r2r 1 support dsd through i2s, so forget the amanero for them. Dsd converted to pcm sounds like pcm. Dsd makes my dac sounds like a delta-sigma. Native dsd playback being stated as a feature in a product description can't mean anything other than an actual dsd playback handled by the conversion board/chip as such.



DoP, that is, DSD over PCM, will just pass through a USB input as if it were PCM. It is the most common way for DSD playback.  Native DSD playback refers, as far as I know, to the DSD not being converted before going to the DAC chip. 



sumpao said:


> Hey did anybody know what is?
> 
> Volume characteristic
> 100 steps Super Exponential Volume Characteristic
> ...



If you listen with an amp that has a linear volume control, you'll find that low down in the volume range the sound will quickly ramp up, but after the half way mark, it doesn't seem to get louder that much more up to full volume. This is because dB values are not linear, but exponential to begin with. Thus, many volume pots are exponential so that, to our perception, we get the volume increasing steadily throughout the entire range. 



Suppa92 said:


> I assume R-28 also has a Class-A amp section (not sure whether it's mentioned in the website though)which means it generates considerable heat inside the device. doesn't that affect to the proper and accurate functionality of the dac section since accuracy or resistance of the resistors changes with the temperature & both of sections placed in a single chassis with very close proximity? (I'm not an electrical engineer. Resistance change with the temp is something I've heard from others)
> 
> images from audio-gd official website - http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN.htm



Audio-gd gear seems to sound best when warm regardless. The DACs get pretty warm as it is, so nothing new here. Most is the heat is from the power supplies.


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## FredA (Jun 23, 2018)

gLer said:


> I’m sure these are all considerations that went into the design. Kingwa at one stage suggested he wouldn’t be able to make an all-in-one ladder dac/amp combo with an NFB-28 chassis, likely because, as you say, there’s just not enough space in there. So he did it using a substantially bigger chassis (36cm x 36cm), almost the size of a Master.
> 
> The R-28 isn’t the first AIO discrete ladder dac/amp combo. The Holo Cyan is also a predominantly Class A-biased amp and discrete ladder dac in an even smaller chassis that weighs 5kg (R-28 weighs in at 7.5). So it can and has been done. I guess only time will tell if heat is an issue, but from what I hear from friends that have one, the NFB-1 doesn’t get too hot even when left on for very long periods.


With the bigger chassis, the venting holes are bigger as well as the dissipation surface while power consumption is the same as the nfb-28. So heat is not a concern whatsoever. It will run colder than the other dac/amp combos.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> DoP, that is, DSD over PCM, will just pass through a USB input as if it were PCM. It is the most common way for DSD playback. Native DSD playback refers, as far as I know, to the DSD not being converted before going to the DAC chip.


That makes sense. I’m curious as to which dac ‘chip’ processes the DSD stream in the R2R-1/7/28, or does it get processed like PCM in the DA-7/8?


----------



## conquerator2

This is great! I love my R2R11 so it's really nice it'd be possible to step up to its bigger brother if I ever feel the desire.


----------



## sumpao

I just order r-28 it probably come to me next weeks.
My expectation for this is quite high haha


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I just order r-28 it probably come to me next weeks.
> My expectation for this is quite high haha


Congrats! Look forward to your impressions. What are you upgrading from?


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Congrats! Look forward to your impressions. What are you upgrading from?



NFB11.38 I just buy it and sell to my friend.

I hope this would be an upgrade though.

I like NFB11.38 +HD600 I think it give too much detail and I kind of fatigue when use headphone and the sound stage is not large.

WHen I use it as preamp + ELAC B5+Marantz 7025  it work quite well due to my system is not that good to show that much detail

I heard that R2R sound quite beautiful blurry  and more warm hope this will let me enjoy more music haha


----------



## JaMo

sumpao said:


> NFB11.38 I just buy it and sell to my friend.
> 
> I hope this would be an upgrade though.
> 
> ...



Hi, 
I suggest You to keep the 11.38 for while before You finally decide to sell it. I don't have 11.38 but I know from my own experience on all the audio-gd equipment, that it will mature fine after approx 3-4 weeks playing 24hrs/day.

/Jan


----------



## sumpao

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> I suggest You to keep the 11.38 for while before You finally decide to sell it. I don't have 11.38 but I know from my own experience on all the audio-gd equipment, that it will mature fine after approx 3-4 weeks playing 24hrs/day.
> 
> /Jan



I think I pass 100 hour of use with it. And I sound quite great every time pass i mature.
I will try to burn it as much as possible to see what it can really do.
But anyway My freind will come and get it once I got R-28 

Do you open it for 24 hour just to burn it?
I not quite use to open and burn thing like that.

Last time I burn my koss ksc35 it broke haha 

So I burn with real use


----------



## gLer

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> I suggest You to keep the 11.38 for while before You finally decide to sell it. I don't have 11.38 but I know from my own experience on all the audio-gd equipment, that it will mature fine after approx 3-4 weeks playing 24hrs/day.
> 
> /Jan


That said, unless he's keeping it for another part of the house, or for the office, there's probably not much point in having two dac/amps around. Then again I know many people who collect different dacs and amps just for fun, just because they love to tinker with different gear and hear how it sounds with different headphones, so who am I to say!  

That said, the Sabre 11.38 could provide an interesting alternative "sound" to the ladder dac in the R-28, and can be used as a dac only from the R-28 amp, so maybe keep it around to compare and to see if you like it better with the R-28 amp before you sell it.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I think I pass 100 hour of use with it. And I sound quite great every time pass i mature.
> I will try to burn it as much as possible to see what it can really do.
> But anyway My freind will come and get it once I got R-28
> 
> ...


You can leave Audio-Gd amps/dacs on permanently as far as I know. Also, you don't have to be playing music through them, just leave them on with the volume down and they will burn in by themselves (unlike headphones where you need to be playing something to activate the drivers).


----------



## JaMo

sumpao said:


> I think I pass 100 hour of use with it. And I sound quite great every time pass i mature.
> I will try to burn it as much as possible to see what it can really do.
> But anyway My freind will come and get it once I got R-28
> 
> ...



Hi again, 
My only reason for my suggestion to keep it is.... I think that the 11.38 is more or less a collector item with its limited serie. It will sound as good as the ESS chips can do. 
If I have had the money I should have kept the 11.38 and found a purpose for it. I was tempted of getting one when it was first announced but I already have the .38 in a NFB28, so I passed.
/Jan


----------



## sumpao

JaMo said:


> Hi again,
> My only reason for my suggestion to keep it is.... I think that the 11.38 is more or less a collector item with its limited serie. It will sound as good as the ESS chips can do.
> If I have had the money I should have kept the 11.38 and found a purpose for it. I was tempted of getting one when it was first announced but I already have the .38 in a NFB28, so I passed.
> /Jan




Actually I don't have money to spare and space to keep both dac/amp with me.
I already have STX + Burson V.6 opamp with my pc gaming.

So I think NFB have to go


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> You can leave Audio-Gd amps/dacs on permanently as far as I know. Also, you don't have to be playing music through them, just leave them on with the volume down and they will burn in by themselves (unlike headphones where you need to be playing something to activate the drivers).



Oh really that the beauty of solid state i live in Thailand and the amp is so hot  i don’t want leave it open when i not there it seem for safety reason haha


----------



## wietschebehr

About the conversation about leaving gear powered on, here is a good explanation:



I think the only real consideration should be if you are OK with your power bill when all your equipment runs permanently. I would guess the equipment is much more expensive to repair/service than the power bill, even over a good couple of years. 

I don't leave my stuff on during the week as I don't really have time to use it during the week. We also have serious lightning storms in summer where I stay so it WILL BE UNPLUGGED when not in use. It stays on over weekends and when frequently used, but only when safe to do so. The equipment is insured, but the problem is when lightning or surges damages it only slightly and you can't proof its not as it used to be...and you can't claim for it.

Cheers,
W


----------



## sumpao

wietschebehr said:


> About the conversation about leaving gear powered on, here is a good explanation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





OMG so it intend to turn on all the time man i switch my thing off everyday

That was very enlight video


----------



## xenithon

I have a slightly different view. Based on the fact that heat is the enemy of electronic components, and thus shortens their lifespan (and can affect their compliance to tolerance), I would not leave them on 24/7. You don't need to turn it on and off every time you walk away, but would consider switching it off when not in use. It will get up to optimal operating temps within 20-30 minutes max (especially since it is solid state; tubes can take longer).

There are very few components that can and should be kept on 24/7, and those are typically specifically built to do so, such as industrial machinery.


----------



## gLer

wietschebehr said:


> About the conversation about leaving gear powered on, here is a good explanation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This tallies with what Kingwa suggests as well - just keep them on. Power draw isn't going to be crazy expensive, but of course use common sense when dealing with extreme heat (hot days) or lightning storms. All your sensitive equipment should ideally be protected by a surge board or some type of UPS anyway.


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> I have a slightly different view. Based on the fact that heat is the enemy of electronic components, and thus shortens their lifespan (and can affect their compliance to tolerance), I would not leave them on 24/7. You don't need to turn it on and off every time you walk away, but would consider switching it off when not in use. It will get up to optimal operating temps within 20-30 minutes max (especially since it is solid state; tubes can take longer).
> 
> There are very few components that can and should be kept on 24/7, and those are typically specifically built to do so, such as industrial machinery.


Will be interesting to see how hot the R-28 gets when not in use/idle. That should in turn dictate switch on/off approach.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Will be interesting to see how hot the R-28 gets when not in use/idle. That should in turn dictate switch on/off approach.



Nfb 11.38 is pretty hot when i use it for 6 hour


----------



## wietschebehr

gLer said:


> This tallies with what Kingwa suggests as well - just keep them on. Power draw isn't going to be crazy expensive, but of course use common sense when dealing with extreme heat (hot days) or lightning storms. All your sensitive equipment should ideally be protected by a surge board or some type of UPS anyway.



I have surge protection in place, but nothing protects against a close by lightning strike. I have lost stuff before that was not even connected... I have a PC board that has no copper tracks left on it.. all burned up with a strike NEXT to the house. Just an induced electric spike. Don't take chances with lightning with your precious electronics and imports...


----------



## gLer

wietschebehr said:


> I have surge protection in place, but nothing protects against a close by lightning strike. I have lost stuff before that was not even connected... I have a PC board that has no copper tracks left on it.. all burned up with a strike NEXT to the house. Just an induced electric spike. Don't take chances with lightning with your precious electronics and imports...


Absolutely 100% agree. The once a year we have lightning in Cape Town all electronic appliances get unplugged. It would drive me crazy in Jo’burg!


----------



## JaMo (Jun 25, 2018)

sumpao said:


> Nfb 11.38 is pretty hot when i use it for 6 hour



The Audio-gd gears seems to be rather hot during the burn in period when components settles. Later on this cools down. My NFB-11.28 TCXO has been powered on since I bought it last year. Today the top lid is nice to have the hand on (35~40 C).

/Jan


----------



## wietschebehr

gLer said:


> Absolutely 100% agree. The once a year we have lightning in Cape Town all electronic appliances get unplugged. It would drive me crazy in Jo’burg!



When I need to upgrade some electronic device, I just leave it plugged in during a thunderstorm and then claim for it the next day.. 

Just joking off course..


----------



## Humblepie

My NFB 29.38 doesn't really get that hot when used for a few hours at a time. 

I am interested in the R-28 though as I was interested in the ladder setups. Looking forward to playing around with both.


----------



## capetownwatches

JaMo said:


> The Audio-gd gears seems to be rather hot during the burn in period when components settles. Later on this cools down. My NFB-11.28 TCXO has been powered on since I bought it last year. Today the top lid is nice to have the hand on (35~40 C).
> 
> /Jan


My NFB11.32 (35W PSU) has been switched on for at least 5 days now, and has been playing pretty loud into K240S and HD600 for a few hours now. 
It is barely warm to the touch, and being a cold night I can feel the warm air rising from the top vent.

I highly recommend using larger feet and raising the unit about an inch. The improved air circulation keeps the unit much cooler than the useless little stock pads.
Cooler unit means better operating tolerances and optimal component lifespan.

Which is good because I intend to keep my NFB11 until one of us stops working permanently...


----------



## ctaxxxx

Just saw this thread and went through all the pages! Can't believe I missed this!



gLer said:


> This is true, although all the modes are still available via jumpers. I guess they had to leave something out!



Quick question. How cumbersome is this to do? This may be the only feature that may make me consider the stack over the 2-in-1, but I don't know how often I will be switching modes. I use the R2R 11 mainly for TV, movies, and games.

1) Unplug device (to avoid electrical shock)
2) Unscrew and pop up hood
3) Plug in jumpers according to their picture
4) (Reverse steps 2 & 1)


----------



## FredA (Jun 28, 2018)

ctaxxxx said:


> Just saw this thread and went through all the pages! Can't believe I missed this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's it. Not much of a problem. A trick to pull the lid off is to first slide it a couple inches towards the back in order to get some grip underneath it.

Correction: forget the sliding trick. It only works with the biggest gears using the 44cm chassis.


----------



## sinae

what about crosstalk? it would be nice to have crosstalk measurement as well!


----------



## FangJoker

I'm finding my Hugo 2 to be a bit too clinical and have had audio gd products before and saw this on the site. The price looks great. I hope someone posts a review soon.


----------



## Currawong

vegasf1 said:


> I'm finding my Hugo 2 to be a bit too clinical and have had audio gd products before and saw this on the site. The price looks great. I hope someone posts a review soon.



I'm guessing mine will arrive tomorrow, but it will take a few weeks to review for best results. If you're finding your Hugo 2 too clinical, try feeding it via a Schiit Wyrd.


----------



## alota

Currawong said:


> I'm guessing mine will arrive tomorrow, but it will take a few weeks to review for best results. If you're finding your Hugo 2 too clinical, try feeding it via a Schiit Wyrd.


i´ll wait for your impression. if you have possibility, please try with an android source. i ask because my source is lg v30 with uapp


----------



## FangJoker (Jul 1, 2018)

Currawong said:


> I'm guessing mine will arrive tomorrow, but it will take a few weeks to review for best results. If you're finding your Hugo 2 too clinical, try feeding it via a Schiit Wyrd.



Thanks I'll buy one now. Good guess on your end that I was using USB too. I'm still interested in the R28. After selling an Audio-GD master amp and a dac to a friend, I've missed having it. But at the time I needed the desk space for work in my home office where I'm at most of the day. Now that I'm semi retired, I can move the printer downstairs to my girlfriend's home office and push the pc over and add some larger equipment again.


----------



## FangJoker

alota said:


> i´ll wait for your impression. if you have possibility, please try with an android source. i ask because my source is lg v30 with uapp



I'll be using it with my home pc. It seems like a pain in the butt to use the wyrd, hugo 2, and my google pixel 2 XL with uapp in bed, but I can see if I can find the right usb c cable to try it.


----------



## wietschebehr

Currawong said:


> I'm guessing mine will arrive tomorrow, but it will take a few weeks to review for best results. If you're finding your Hugo 2 too clinical, try feeding it via a Schiit Wyrd.



This is very exciting an I am looking forward to your review! Thanks for your contributions and efforts, very much appreciated!


----------



## alota

vegasf1 said:


> I'll be using it with my home pc. It seems like a pain in the butt to use the wyrd, hugo 2, and my google pixel 2 XL with uapp in bed, but I can see if I can find the right usb c cable to try it.


really appreciated


----------



## thebkt

vegasf1 said:


> I'm finding my Hugo 2 to be a bit too clinical and have had audio gd products before and saw this on the site. The price looks great. I hope someone posts a review soon.


What headphones are you pairing it with?


----------



## Currawong

R-28 has arrived. Out of the box it is quite mellow and very listenable. I'm going to see how it sounds after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.


----------



## sumpao

Currawong said:


> R-28 has arrived. Out of the box it is quite mellow and very listenable. I'm going to see how it sounds after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.



How long does it take from your payment for it to arrive


----------



## Currawong

That's an impossible question to answer, as it is part of the first batch, and so my experience wont match that of other people. For example, if they have them on hand already tested, or are completely out of stock, that will affect the time.  I think the fasted people have received items has been in about 3-4 days after payment, depending on shipping method.


----------



## sumpao

Currawong said:


> That's an impossible question to answer, as it is part of the first batch, and so my experience wont match that of other people. For example, if they have them on hand already tested, or are completely out of stock, that will affect the time.  I think the fasted people have received items has been in about 3-4 days after payment, depending on shipping method.



Thank wait for your review on the products


----------



## xenithon

Concur. Also note that they have stated approx. 10 business day lead time for this particular model given the limited first production run. It may be that they are now in stock so the wait will be shorter but best to check directly with AGD.


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> Concur. Also note that they have stated approx. 10 business day lead time for this particular model given the limited first production run. It may be that they are now in stock so the wait will be shorter but best to check directly with AGD.



Oh i see so it around 2 weeks then thanks


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> R-28 has arrived. Out of the box it is quite mellow and very listenable. I'm going to see how it sounds after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.


How exciting, and kudos for posting the first ever real-world pic!


----------



## seeyou

Currawong said:


> R-28 has arrived. Out of the box it is quite mellow and very listenable. I'm going to see how it sounds after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.



Looking forward to some impressions during the review process too, if time permits


----------



## dfarina

seeyou said:


> Looking forward to some impressions during the review process too, if time permits


Me too,so close to pulling the trigger on one but want to hear some feedback first!


----------



## Greg121986

sumpao said:


> NFB11.38 I just buy it and sell to my friend.
> 
> I hope this would be an upgrade though.



Really looking forward to hear a comparison of these two. I got the NFB11.38 and a Precision 3 power amp a few weeks ago to use with ELAC Unifi UB5 for a bedroom stereo. I'm really surprised how great this sounds. I've been using the NFB11.38 as a headphone amp and DAC with really impressive results. I've changed the filtering jumper to slow-rolloff minimum phase and it is really, really good. It's super detailed, enormous soundstage, and never fatiguing. I've used the internal amp as well as an Auralic Taurus MKII. 

Since the R-28 is the new hotness, I'm really interested to try one for use with my office headphone setup. I like the Auralic Taurus MKII quite a lot so I'm not sure if I'd want to go back to an all in one like the R-28, or opt for one of the Audio-GD R2R DACs.


----------



## Suppa92

Is this new R-28 overkill for a Audeze LCD-2Cs?


----------



## gLer

Suppa92 said:


> Is this new R-28 overkill for a Audeze LCD-2Cs?


I wouldn’t think so. LCDs scale very well with better gear. The advantage of the R-28 is that you can drive them either SE or balanced without compromising power. And LCDs love power!


----------



## thebkt

You'll also be future proofing should you ever upgrade your headphones


----------



## Suppa92 (Jul 4, 2018)

thebkt said:


> You'll also be future proofing should you ever upgrade your headphones


Most probably not. Maybe a Fostex TH900(or any other flagship fostex available in that time) after few years.But I strongly believe LCD2cs will be my endgame. I love really great accurate bass that's the 
same reason for considering LCD2Cs. But some say LCD2C won't reveal much details with high-end devices like R-28. Only very expensive headphones can have benefits from such gear.


----------



## capetownwatches (Jul 5, 2018)

LCD's and Audio-gd amplification is a match made in heaven, at least according to my LCD2F, NFB11.32 and ears.

I think the R-28 will pair exceptionally well with the LCD2C, as it will with any low impedance Planar.


----------



## sumpao

Hey guy. I have a question 
due to R-28 

Did you know how much current it produce? (MA)

I not sure how to calculate from the spec.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Hey guy. I have a question
> due to R-28
> 
> Did you know how much current it produce? (MA)
> ...


Funny I just asked Kingwa the same question yesterday. 0.8A per channel. Same as the NFB-1. This amp is a beast!


----------



## capetownwatches

sumpao said:


> Hey guy. I have a question
> due to R-28
> 
> Did you know how much current it produce? (MA)
> ...



@gLer  What's the chances that someone would ask that same question right about now..??


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Funny I just asked Kingwa the same question yesterday. 0.8A per channel. Same as the NFB-1. This amp is a beast!




Oh my it really have the power in it.
Waiting to try it out


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Oh my it really have the power in it.
> Waiting to try it out


If it sounds as good as the specs, you’ll never need another amp (or dac!).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> If it sounds as good as the specs, you’ll never need another amp (or dac!).



Yes I looking forward to get it and try.

Still wait for review from other also


----------



## gLer

Hey guys, I noticed an interesting thing while reading up on the R-28 webpage again today: all mention of the so-called “Super SE” mode is gone, and instead we’re left with a single line on the specs page claiming SE and balanced have he same power output.

Seems AGD silently revised the specs - and changed the functionality of the shipping product - because previously there was to be an ‘S’ mode that switched on the full-power SE function, and it’s no longer there. 

Could it be that both outputs are now permanently in parity? That would be quite unique indeed!

I wonder if that’s the only change made to the shipping product...


----------



## xevman

Very eagerly waiting on impressions of the r28. Curious to know what disadvantages there are opting for this instead of the r2r 1 + nfb 1 combo


----------



## Currawong

gLer said:


> Hey guys, I noticed an interesting thing while reading up on the R-28 webpage again today: all mention of the so-called “Super SE” mode is gone, and instead we’re left with a single line on the specs page claiming SE and balanced have he same power output.
> 
> Seems AGD silently revised the specs - and changed the functionality of the shipping product - because previously there was to be an ‘S’ mode that switched on the full-power SE function, and it’s no longer there.
> 
> ...



The S mode lost soundstage, dramatically so -- it was really not a benefit. The point of having more power available is that the soundstage does not collapse during complex music when listening with planar headphones at higher volumes.  Starting off with a poor soundstage for more power negates the point of it.


----------



## FredA (Jul 7, 2018)

gLer said:


> Hey guys, I noticed an interesting thing while reading up on the R-28 webpage again today: all mention of the so-called “Super SE” mode is gone, and instead we’re left with a single line on the specs page claiming SE and balanced have he same power output.
> 
> Seems AGD silently revised the specs - and changed the functionality of the shipping product - because previously there was to be an ‘S’ mode that switched on the full-power SE function, and it’s no longer there.
> 
> ...


Strange. It is specced as both outputs have the same power still.


----------



## capetownwatches

Currawong said:


> The S mode lost soundstage, dramatically so -- it was really not a benefit. The point of having more power available is that the soundstage does not collapse during complex music when listening with planar headphones at higher volumes.  Starting off with a poor soundstage for more power negates the point of it.



Thanks for the feedback Amos and just to clarify, was your unit then NOT delivered with S mode functionality? 

And in that case, is the power output still the same for SE and Balanced operation?


----------



## xenithon (Jul 8, 2018)

It should - while that name has been removed from the page, specs still state: _Balanced and Single ended modes had same power output
_
Having said that, if it has been removed for SQ reasons, it may just be that they haven’t updated that part of the specs page


----------



## Currawong

capetownwatches said:


> Thanks for the feedback Amos and just to clarify, was your unit then NOT delivered with S mode functionality?
> 
> And in that case, is the power output still the same for SE and Balanced operation?



Mine was delivered with S mode functionality. I'm going to update the firmware to remove it though.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> Mine was delivered with S mode functionality. I'm going to update the firmware to remove it though.


So in other words once you disable/remove S mode, SE is back to normal power (i.e. 1/4 balanced output)? If so you should tell Kingwa to change the wording on the specs page before he gets flak for it...


----------



## Currawong

gLer said:


> So in other words once you disable/remove S mode, SE is back to normal power (i.e. 1/4 balanced output)? If so you should tell Kingwa to change the wording on the specs page before he gets flak for it...



I'll have to wait until I've updated it. Anyone can email him though.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> I'll have to wait until I've updated it. Anyone can email him though.


Hi, I did and he confirmed that Super SE mode is no longer available. So it’s back to NFB-1 level SE and Balanced modes (i.e. balanced 4x SE output power). Still has true high gain mode, so a step forward from the NFB-1.


----------



## Suppa92

gLer said:


> Hi, I did and he confirmed that Super SE mode is no longer available. So it’s back to NFB-1 level SE and Balanced modes (i.e. balanced 4x SE output power). Still has true high gain mode, so a step forward from the NFB-1.


What you meant by "Still has true high gain mode" ? Usual High Gain mode or anything else since Super SE mode is no longer available.


----------



## thebkt

Suppa92 said:


> What you meant by "Still has true high gain mode" ? Usual High Gain mode or anything else since Super SE mode is no longer available.


The nfb-1's high gain mode is actually a different configuration for the volume knob. In high gain is skips volume steps and ramps up the volume sooner. There's no electrical change to the signal.


----------



## xenithon (Jul 8, 2018)

Three months shy of 13 years ago, I officially joined this wonderful hobby by signing up at Head-Fi. It has been an incredible journey filled with joys, tears, wonderful surprises, heart-wrenching disappointments, and unending experimentation of different components, systems, accessories, and so forth.

It warms the heart to finally be able to say that I have reached my audio nirvana. Excessive for some, far from TOTL for others, but ultimately for me it ticks all the boxes.

The final leg of this journey commenced about a year ago and resulted in finding my trifecta of headphones. The last piece of the puzzle was finding and all-in-one that did not require a material compromise in terms of the characteristics I appreciate in audio reproduction. That search culminated in the R-28.

Having fallen in love with the R2R-11's synergy both with my headphones and my ears, the announcement of the R-28 was like a cherub singing. I swiftly placed my order and waited anxiously for it to be assembled. Once it was finally picked up by DHL, it took all of 48 hours to arrive at my doorstep, halfway across the world.

It is still early days in terms of burn-in, and I have not even touched any NOS mode settings, but it is truly a glorious achievement. Well done to Kingwa and the team, and thank you for this masterpiece which now completes my quest.

Below some photos, shot gloriously by @gLer.


----------



## fob69

How much burn - in does it get ?
Amanero clocks need more than 200 hours to work well ...

B.


----------



## xenithon

fob69 said:


> How much burn - in does it get ?
> Amanero clocks need more than 200 hours to work well ...
> 
> B.


Kingwa recommends up to 500h for this unit


----------



## fob69

And how much do you get now on yours ?


----------



## xenithon

It's been on around 24h; had about 5h of playtime


----------



## spacequeen7

xenithon said:


> It's been on around 24h; had about 5h of playtime


How about short -initial impression vs. R2R 11,congrats !


----------



## wietschebehr

xenithon said:


> Three months shy of 13 years ago, I officially joined this wonderful hobby by signing up at Head-Fi. It has been an incredible journey filled with joys, tears, wonderful surprises, heart-wrenching disappointments, and unending experimentation of different components, systems, accessories, and so forth.
> 
> It warms the heart to finally be able to say that I have reached my audio nirvana. Excessive for some, far from TOTL for others, but ultimately for me it ticks all the boxes.
> 
> ...




WOW WOW WOW! 

WHAT A BEUTIFUL SETUP!!! 

I hope and believe it sounds a good as it looks! 

CONGRATULATIONS!!!


----------



## capetownwatches (Jul 8, 2018)

Congrats X!  
Enjoy.
Looking forward to you waxing lyrical on this beauty in due course.


PS Great pics @gLer


----------



## ProLoL

How much does it weigh? I might purchase one.


----------



## gLer

Suppa92 said:


> What you meant by "Still has true high gain mode" ? Usual High Gain mode or anything else since Super SE mode is no longer available.





thebkt said:


> The nfb-1's high gain mode is actually a different configuration for the volume knob. In high gain is skips volume steps and ramps up the volume sooner. There's no electrical change to the signal.



What ^^ said. The NFB-1 has a single gain mode, except 'H' gets you to full volume faster. The R-28 has low gain (7db) and high gain (17db) modes, as well as an F mode that gets you to full volume in high gain faster. 'S' mode was going to match the SE output power to balanced (4x the output power of standard SE), but apparently after some negative user feedback this was withdrawn from the shipping product. I've been listening to the R-28 for the past day in SE mode and I can tell you it still has PLENTY of power for SE headphones - more than most will ever need. Balanced just pushes this to the max, with more headroom and (according to Audio-Gd) better instrument separation and soundstage. HTH.


----------



## gLer

ProLoL said:


> How much does it weigh? I might purchase one.


7.5kg. Not quite Master weight, but very substantial indeed.


----------



## gLer (Jul 8, 2018)

xenithon said:


> Three months shy of 13 years ago, I officially joined this wonderful hobby by signing up at Head-Fi. It has been an incredible journey filled with joys, tears, wonderful surprises, heart-wrenching disappointments, and unending experimentation of different components, systems, accessories, and so forth.
> 
> It warms the heart to finally be able to say that I have reached my audio nirvana. Excessive for some, far from TOTL for others, but ultimately for me it ticks all the boxes.
> 
> ...


What a trip! I have to thank and congratulate @xenithon for not only generously sharing his vast experience with me over the past 18 months, but also helping get me up to speed on the ways of the head-fi world, with invaluable advice and plenty of shortcuts that - like him - have got me to my own personal endgame. And like him, the R-28 was the last piece of my puzzle, bringing together in perfect harmony the sound signature, features and flexibility I want from a dac, and the power, transparency and resolution I need from an amp for the headphones I use and own.

I'll be spending much more time with the R-28 once it's done burning in, although I'll pop in from time to time for a listen like I have been doing since it first left its well-packed and provisioned box. For now, I'll say it's incredibly smooth, surprisingly resolving (coming from an R2R-11), and very listenable indeed (to use Currawong's words). I've only had a brief listen with Xenithon's Auteur, HD800 and LCD-3 (all three easily driven using balanced out, and each superbly articulate), and a longer listen with my SE-connected Elear, which I found even more resolving and layered than I previously heard it on my ex-R2R-11.

Keep an eye on this thread as I post more measured impressions when I get to listen some more.




 

 



Big shout out to Kingwa and the Audio-gd team for making such an incredible product - and indeed family of products; for always being so responsive and generous with feedback and advice, and for being an absolute pleasure to deal with. While my search for the head-fi 'sweet spot' ends here, I've always believed the real joy is in the journey, and my journey through audio nirvana - with music new and old - is only just beginning.


----------



## PopZeus

I’m genuinely excited for you guys and I don’t even own an R-28.


----------



## thebkt

PopZeus said:


> I’m genuinely excited for you guys and I don’t even own an R-28.


Here I am reading the glowing comments thinking 'my, that'd be nice to hear'.  Mind you, I have this thought while listening to tunes on my R2R-1/NFB-1 combo... At that point I realize I'm most likely hearing damn near the same thing and just grin.  A few months in and I'm still completely stoked on this stack, especially with my Clear's.  Glad to hear you guys thoroughly enjoying yours!


----------



## sumpao

thebkt said:


> Here I am reading the glowing comments thinking 'my, that'd be nice to hear'.  Mind you, I have this thought while listening to tunes on my R2R-1/NFB-1 combo... At that point I realize I'm most likely hearing damn near the same thing and just grin.  A few months in and I'm still completely stoked on this stack, especially with my Clear's.  Glad to hear you guys thoroughly enjoying yours!



Mine will come in this weeks very exciting to try this one


----------



## Currawong

I've been listening via the R-28 both directly and through the Master 9. The latter brings out more space to the music, which is to be expected. Now I have had the R-28 on for a few days it is indeed very pleasant to listen with -- a touch mellow and not the most dynamic, but good for just enjoying listening.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> I've been listening via the R-28 both directly and through the Master 9. The latter brings out more space to the music, which is to be expected. Now I have had the R-28 on for a few days it is indeed very pleasant to listen with -- a touch mellow and not the most dynamic, but good for just enjoying listening.


Hi Amos - can you tell us which headphones you’ve been using, balanced or SE, and which mode as well (NOS/OS)? 

How does it compare to the R2R-7 as a dac?


----------



## sumpao

I have a question.

Did add tcxo did it bring anything to the table.

How the different with the stock one or if I not upgrade there is no tcxo in r28


----------



## JaMo (Jul 9, 2018)

sumpao said:


> I have a question.
> 
> Did add tcxo did it bring anything to the table.
> 
> How the different with the stock one or if I not upgrade there is no tcxo in r28



Hi,
A TCXO can add a more stable time pulse for the digital circuit. Based on earler experiences it can bring/brings more air to the presentation. The differences are subtle but they are there.
/Jan


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I have a question.
> 
> Did add tcxo did it bring anything to the table.
> 
> How the different with the stock one or if I not upgrade there is no tcxo in r28


From my understanding TCXO helps with correcting or improving jitter, which is already less of an issue with R2R dacs, especially those with built-in dedicated FPGA controllers like the R-28. In any case, for $40 it can’t do any harm.


----------



## Currawong

gLer said:


> Hi Amos - can you tell us which headphones you’ve been using, balanced or SE, and which mode as well (NOS/OS)?
> 
> How does it compare to the R2R-7 as a dac?



The R-28 is set up as it arrived. I use the Focal Utopias for testing, as they are the most revealing of component differences in my experience.

I don't have the R2R 7 here any longer, but switching between systems I have here where I have comparable DACs which were very close to the R2R 7 in performance, the R-28 is a step down in performance, but much less so if I'm using the R-28 only as a DAC.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> The R-28 is set up as it arrived. I use the Focal Utopias for testing, as they are the most revealing of component differences in my experience.
> 
> I don't have the R2R 7 here any longer, but switching between systems I have here where I have comparable DACs which were very close to the R2R 7 in performance, the R-28 is a step down in performance, but much less so if I'm using the R-28 only as a DAC.


So if I understand correctly it’s the amp section that’s a step down, in your opinion, more so than the dac anyway. Would make sense if you’re comparing it to a Master 9  For me, so far, it’s a few steps up from the R2R-11 - as it should be, given the price differential - even though the R2R-11 punches well above its weight.


----------



## fob69 (Jul 9, 2018)

You have less than a week of use on your unit isn’t it ? Not sure it is a good idea to compare it now.
The amanero is a big sheat below 200 burn in hours.

B.


----------



## fob69

... on the amp section i did replace the volume control card on a nfb29 by a brand new one and it tooks 8 - 9 days for the sound to get back.

B.


----------



## gLer

fob69 said:


> You have less than a week of use on your unit isn’t it ? Not sure it is a good idea to compare it now.
> The amanero is a big sheat below 200 burn in hours.
> 
> B.


That’s ok, still burning mine in. Should be up to about 200 hours by Wednesday. Not surprising there’s still room to improve, but I have no intention of paying the big bucks it’ll take to do so, for what would now be questionable gain.

Just curious how @Currawong pegs the R-28 against much higher end gear, the likes of which I honestly don’t aspire to as it’s already - even cold - better than anything I could have hoped to own. 

As my new sig says, this is game over for me. Just reveling in the sound and grateful to have gotten to this point so quickly.


----------



## sumpao

My R-28 arrive yesterday.

What different in low gain mode and high gain? 

Pretty impress with this products


----------



## xenithon

Quick question to those burning in....in all my experience, burning in should be done playing music with a load (i.e., headphones connected). But, I believe AGD have suggested that the unit simply needs to be on to be burning in. How do you burn in your AGD kit - just switched on, playing music with no load, or playing music with headphones connected?


----------



## JaMo (Jul 10, 2018)

xenithon said:


> Quick question to those burning in....in all my experience, burning in should be done playing music with a load (i.e., headphones connected). But, I believe AGD have suggested that the unit simply needs to be on to be burning in. How do you burn in your AGD kit - just switched on, playing music with no load, or playing music with headphones connected?



Hi,
Oscillators just need to be powered on. Amp parts likes music playing. It is not necessary to load the outputs.
/Jan


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> My R-28 arrive yesterday.
> 
> What different in low gain mode and high gain?
> 
> Pretty impress with this products


Congrats! Except why is it on its side?


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Congrats! Except why is it on its side?




I don't have space  so I put it this way.
I ask Audio gd and they said I can put it this way


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I don't have space  so I put it this way.
> I ask Audio gd and they said I can put it this way


Ok, just looks painful. Be careful not to scratch the sides...


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Ok, just looks painful. Be careful not to scratch the sides...



It 100% will have a scratch. But my desk don't have a space for it. 

So sad and cheer that it can work on vertical so I don't have to go buy new desk


----------



## xenithon

I would suggest something like rubber standoffs. It will provide both protection against scratches, and vibration control (if you believe in that). For example:


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> I would suggest something like rubber standoffs. It will provide both protection against scratches, and vibration control (if you believe in that). For example:




Yes I believe in that. Will look for something like this in Thailand.

And apply to the products


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> I would suggest something like rubber standoffs. It will provide both protection against scratches, and vibration control (if you believe in that). For example:


Great idea.


----------



## sumpao

Ok I buy some similar products in Aliexpress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/40m...307.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7ad84c4dPNM15T

Hope this will help solve problem thank for advise


----------



## fob69

Rubber feet can affect the sound (trebbles and mediums). They can be very bad. A piece of fabric would be better.

B.


----------



## wietschebehr

fob69 said:


> Rubber feet can affect the sound (trebbles and mediums). They can be very bad. A piece of fabric would be better.
> 
> B.



Hi,

Please elaborate on this, I am very interested.

Cheers,
W


----------



## thebkt

sumpao said:


> What different in low gain mode and high gain?


 Check back a couple of pages, it's covered by a couple of replies.  It's also on the Audio-gd product page


----------



## Suppa92

Currawong said:


> I've been listening via the R-28 both directly and through the Master 9. The latter brings out more space to the music, which is to be expected. Now I have had the R-28 on for a few days it is indeed very pleasant to listen with -- a touch mellow and not the most dynamic, but good for just enjoying listening.


What You meant by dynamic? Is it weak in bass region?I'm very new to this forum and don't know much of the audio terminology. I have heard that R2R have good bass reproduction than normal sigma-delta dacs and Audio-GD amps has bit coloring in bass/low frequencies. So bit less dynamic means this is not like other Audio-GD amps and R2R dac section is also not good enough?


----------



## wietschebehr

fob69 said:


> Rubber feet can affect the sound (trebbles and mediums). They can be very bad. A piece of fabric would be better.
> 
> B.



How about a mouse pad cut to the correct size? Then you have rubber and fabric. Will this sound better?


----------



## fob69 (Jul 10, 2018)

wietschebehr said:


> How about a mouse pad cut to the correct size? Then you have rubber and fabric. Will this sound better?



Rubber feet (and foam) can change the mecanical inner rigging of the unit. If you want to protect the unit side a more neutral material as a fabric peace would be better. Bluestack (« patafix ») is very good too but sticks.
IME steel conic feet will reinforce trebles and spatial, rubber, foam ... will have the oposite effect. Wood is more neutral, stone give very bad sound but is usefull to get a stable reference but with wood on top of it.
This migth be the subject of an other thread.


----------



## Greg121986

fob69 said:


> Rubber feet can affect the sound (trebbles and mediums). They can be very bad. A piece of fabric would be better.
> 
> B.



*This is complete nonsense. *

I believe in vibration control and the effectiveness of things like isoacoustics Gaia, sorbothane, vibrapods, etc.. I do not believe that you can generalize and say that rubber feet will affect the treble and midrange specifically of the R-28!! That is utterly ridiculous. Impedance and other electrical properties of a circuit can and will change due to induced vibration, but I do not accept your statement that the rubber feet would negatively affect treble or mid-range on the R-28 and that fabric would be better. We do not know what the resonance frequency of the R-28 chassis is, but since it's likely used as a headphone amp and not a piece of stereo equipment, it's very unlikely that any surrounding vibrations in a typical environment will have negative effects. 

All that being said, I have used mouse pads to isolate components more so for physical damage and electrical isolation. Secondarily, this may provide a very minimal mechanical vibration protection. I've also used Isoacoustics Gaias, Stillpoints, Isolate It Sorbothane dots, and Vibrapods. I'm very comfortable with all of these as a means to isolate your components from each other whether it be to protect them from physical damage or from the induced vibrations that you'd find in a loud speaker system. In no way should you be concerned about adding some sort of rubber isolation to protect your components from physically being damaged.


----------



## fob69

Put some rubber in you left hear and fabric in the rigth one and see if you hear a difference...

I have made a lot of tests too and just refer to my expérience


----------



## gLer (Jul 10, 2018)

I'll say this once and very slowly just so I'm not misunderstood.

Putting. Rubber. Feet. Or. Any. Other. Material. For. That. Matter. Under. A. Solid. State. Piece. Of. Equipment. With. No. Moving. Parts. Makes. *NO. DIFFERENCE. TO. THE. SOUND. WHATSOEVER.
*
Can we at least try to be responsible and not spread nonsense about nonexistent magical acoustical properties on this forum?

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Currawong

It's not magical, there is actual science involved. That being said, I use the inexpensive Herbies rubber dampers, mostly with tube amps. 



Suppa92 said:


> What You meant by dynamic? Is it weak in bass region?I'm very new to this forum and don't know much of the audio terminology. I have heard that R2R have good bass reproduction than normal sigma-delta dacs and Audio-GD amps has bit coloring in bass/low frequencies. So bit less dynamic means this is not like other Audio-GD amps and R2R dac section is also not good enough?



It depends what headphones you are driving. For the vast majority of headphones, the R-28 is great. Going up to higher amps, it's like removing the grills off speakers so the sound can move more freely, as grills have a slight damping effect on the drivers.  Overall, the R-28 has a slightly mellow presentation, which, with the characteristic "sound" of a ladder DAC, makes it very pleasant to listen with.


----------



## sumpao

For me anything that protect the products and not let it vibrate is good for me. So cheap one for now

I try r-28 in various song
Daft Punk - Get Lucky
The sound is slow.Is there any type of song this products not quite good with?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Daft Punk - Get Lucky
> The sound is slow.Is there any type of song this products not quite good with?


What do you mean by ‘slow’, and compared to what? Which headphones are you using? I just had a listen to that track with my Elear and it sounds fast, punchy and dynamic, just as I expected the Elear to present it.

If anything the R-28 just lets the music flow with perfect clarity and very little coloration, at least to my ears. Currently in OS 8x (default) mode, using SE out to the Elear.

I’ll post more feedback using this combination as I listen to it more over the coming days and weeks. I’m at the 200-hour burn in mark so the sound should have opened up nicely by now.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> What do you mean by ‘slow’, and compared to what? Which headphones are you using? I just had a listen to that track with my Elear and it sounds fast, punchy and dynamic, just as I expected the Elear to present it.
> 
> If anything the R-28 just lets the music flow with perfect clarity and very little coloration, at least to my ears. Currently in OS 8x (default) mode, using SE out to the Elear.
> 
> I’ll post more feedback using this combination as I listen to it more over the coming days and weeks. I’m at the 200-hour burn in mark so the sound should have opened up nicely by now.




Compare to


gLer said:


> What do you mean by ‘slow’, and compared to what? Which headphones are you using? I just had a listen to that track with my Elear and it sounds fast, punchy and dynamic, just as I expected the Elear to present it.
> 
> If anything the R-28 just lets the music flow with perfect clarity and very little coloration, at least to my ears. Currently in OS 8x (default) mode, using SE out to the Elear.
> 
> I’ll post more feedback using this combination as I listen to it more over the coming days and weeks. I’m at the 200-hour burn in mark so the sound should have opened up nicely by now.




Hi i use as preamp with MM7025 + Elac B5.

I will use with my HD650 again today if this sound different.


----------



## fob69 (Jul 11, 2018)

gLer said:


> I'll say this once and very slowly just so I'm not misunderstood.
> 
> Putting. Rubber. Feet. Or. Any. Other. Material. For. That. Matter. Under. A. Solid. State. Piece. Of. Equipment. With. No. Moving. Parts. Makes. *NO. DIFFERENCE. TO. THE. SOUND. WHATSOEVER.
> *
> ...



If you hear your music with headphones this is true because you don’t have acoustic feddback into the unit enclosure and pcb. If you use loudspeakers in the same room you will have clearly audible effects depending how acoustic vibrations are scattered from the enclosure.

B.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> It's not magical, there is actual science involved. That being said, I use the inexpensive Herbies rubber dampers, mostly with tube amps.



I have no doubt there is, and I wasn’t questioning the need for isolation or vibration reduction. I was just point out the ridiculousness of some of the comments here on how rubber or material would affect some of the sound characteristics of a solid state device like the R-28, especially when set on a firm surface. Some of these nonsensical comments need to be called out for what they are. 



Currawong said:


> It depends what headphones you are driving. For the vast majority of headphones, the R-28 is great. Going up to higher amps, it's like removing the grills off speakers so the sound can move more freely, as grills have a slight damping effect on the drivers. Overall, the R-28 has a slightly mellow presentation, which, with the characteristic "sound" of a ladder DAC, makes it very pleasant to listen with.


Would you say it’s the same case with the NFB-1 compared to something like the Master 9? If so then I think the R-28 is performing exactly as expected.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Compare to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So are you only using the dac section, not the amp? Ladder dacs are, in my experience, more organic and less ‘clinical’ than a DS dac like the Sabre Pro, which may come across as ‘slower’ depending on your listening preferences and headphones used, although I personally don’t perceive them as slow, just more natural.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> So are you only using the dac section, not the amp? Ladder dacs are, in my experience, more organic and less ‘clinical’ than a DS dac like the Sabre Pro, which may come across as ‘slower’ depending on your listening preferences and headphones used, although I personally don’t perceive them as slow, just more natural.



I use it as dac and preamp part.

For Headphone I kind of remember it speed is not that fast too. But I have to check tonight.


----------



## xenithon

fob69 said:


> If you hear your music with headphones this is true because you don’t have acoustic feddback into the unit enclosure and pcb. If you use loudspeakers in the same room you will have clearly audible effects depending how acoustic vibrations are scattered from the enclosure.



Think everyone should take a chill pill and we can get back on topic around discussing the R-28 

But on this point specifically, we are getting somewhere, as we are now setting expectations and defining specific circumstances. In this case, I agree - in a speaker setup, any vibrations can have an impact, be it tiny or significant (depending on the listener's belief in such). Everything from circuits to capacitors can potentially, in some way, be affected by vibrations. 

In the context of headphone-only listening, it should be a negligible (read no) impact so isolation can be considered less of a concern.


----------



## capetownwatches

Ah, the voice of reason...

What I REALLY want to know is how the DAC section compares to the R2R-11.

If I consider getting a NOS DAC at any stage, which is looking very likely, it will almost certainly be an R2R-11, hence my interest.
I realise it's quite early for such comparisons, and not sure anyone has even used the R-28 as a DAC only yet, but I'll be patient...


----------



## xevman (Jul 12, 2018)

Has anyone compared this to the delta sigma equivalent (nfb 28.38)? Curious to see what the differences in sound characteristics are between the audiogd r2r and deltasigma (es9038) dacs. I currently use an r2r 11 but I do listen to a huge array of music genres, so I don't think one would be better than another for me. I'm just curious what sort of differences I'll find.


----------



## fob69 (Jul 12, 2018)

Yes !!!  The nfb28/29.38 Vs R2R 28 !!!!
(The specific « Vs », not the « r2r is neutral Vs sabre deltasigma is robotic »)


----------



## xevman

Only reason I'm asking for a comparison or insight as I was put off Sabre Dacs a long time ago due to poor implementation and that horrid glare in the treble. After that I swore never to go with a Sabre dac again only AKM or ladder dacs, thats why im partial to r2r now. That being said I know the es9038 and implementations of said sabre chips are a lot better now.


----------



## Currawong

The 9038-based DACs seem to have less of the glare. I've found though that AKM DACs that use their default linear filter sound worse than any 9018-based DAC I've tried.  A bit off-topic, but it seems custom high-tap filters are the way to go, if not R2R. iFi's Pro iDSD has a 16k tap filter feeding 4 BB DACs and it is the least chip-DAC-like DAC I've auditioned to date (that wasn't over $8k at least).



capetownwatches said:


> I realise it's quite early for such comparisons, and not sure anyone has even used the R-28 as a DAC only yet, but I'll be patient...



I asked Kingwa and he says that the R-28 as a DAC is equivalent to the R1.  It's surprisingly competent, at least with the Utopias.  It doesn't have _quite_ the depth of my big rigs, but it's good enough, and so listenable, that even switching back and forth between them, I don't feel I'm losing enough SQ to bother me. At my usual moderate listening level it requires excellent recordings any significant difference between the R-28 and the Hugo 2.


----------



## smodtactical

Currawong said:


> The 9038-based DACs seem to have less of the glare. I've found though that AKM DACs that use their default linear filter sound worse than any 9018-based DAC I've tried.  A bit off-topic, but it seems custom high-tap filters are the way to go, if not R2R. iFi's Pro iDSD has a 16k tap filter feeding 4 BB DACs and it is the least chip-DAC-like DAC I've auditioned to date (that wasn't over $8k at least).
> 
> 
> 
> I asked Kingwa and he says that the R-28 as a DAC is equivalent to the R1.  It's surprisingly competent, at least with the Utopias.  It doesn't have _quite_ the depth of my big rigs, but it's good enough, and so listenable, that even switching back and forth between them, I don't feel I'm losing enough SQ to bother me. At my usual moderate listening level it requires excellent recordings any significant difference between the R-28 and the Hugo 2.



Hey Currawong you should take over innerfidelity bro.


----------



## gLer

smodtactical said:


> Hey Currawong you should take over innerfidelity bro.


+1


----------



## JoeDoe

Here we go!!!


----------



## JaMo

JoeDoe said:


> Here we go!!!



Congratulations! Please be patient and run the three weeks burn in. I have almost a full week on mine and it is clearly rewarding to wait. 

Enjoy!

/Jan


----------



## thebkt

Psssshhh... It'll sound great out of the box and probably continue to improve in time. Dig in and enjoy it!


----------



## JaMo

thebkt said:


> Psssshhh... It'll sound great out of the box and probably continue to improve in time. Dig in and enjoy it!



Sure. But it will need the time to blossom and to settle. 
/Jan


----------



## vr1

Hi All,
I've just received my R28 today.  
It is smaller than what I've expected. I am expecting the size of Master 9.Out of the box sounded very good already very detail but smooth. It should sound much better after 2-300 hrs.


----------



## thebkt

JaMo said:


> Sure. But it will need the time to blossom and to settle.
> /Jan


Yup. And that'll happen in time regardless of if you dedicate it to burn in or if you enjoy it right away... so why deprive yourself?


----------



## JoeDoe

I'll give more formal impressions later, but so far here are the things I'm hearing:

- Immersive soundstage (much more 3D than R2R 11)
- Definitely a smoother sound, but not _smoothed over_
- Good space up top for an R2R design
- GOBS of power. Almost blew out my PS1000s clicking through the gain options!
- Love the smaller size. 
- Volume knob resistance(?) seems to be better than past AGD products I've owned
- Plug in play operation certainly appreciated!


----------



## gLer

JoeDoe said:


> I'll give more formal impressions later, but so far here are the things I'm hearing:
> 
> - Immersive soundstage (much more 3D than R2R 11)
> - Definitely a smoother sound, but not _smoothed over_
> ...


What ^^ said


----------



## JaMo

thebkt said:


> Yup. And that'll happen in time regardless of if you dedicate it to burn in or if you enjoy it right away... so why deprive yourself?


Not depriving. Just asking for patience before youngsters tweaking themself to death. In another thread a few guys sold their gears before the gears was matured. Good for the second buyers, though. I think the advise still is valid.
Cheers
/Jan


----------



## Suppa92

JoeDoe said:


> I'll give more formal impressions later, but so far here are the things I'm hearing:
> 
> - Immersive soundstage (much more 3D than R2R 11)
> - Definitely a smoother sound, but not _smoothed over_
> ...


Really good.
But I still can't understand the meaning of "Smoother Sound". Almost all of the R2R dac listners say that R2Rs make really smooth sound. since I have only heard dac-chip based dac units, I can't understand it properly. Please can someone explain it. I know it's very hard to explain a sound characteristics in words but It helps a lot to people who're interested in buying this and haven't heard r2rs before.


----------



## xenithon

They say a picture is worth a thousand words so this is how I’d illustrate it.

Left is R2R - natural, more gentle, all the details are there but not “in your face”.

Right is ESS - same level of detail but sometimes a slight sheen, a bit of a brightening / sharpening filter.


----------



## Gambitek

Does the R-28 let me cycle between my speaks and headphones with an easy switch like the R2R-11?


----------



## FredA (Jul 14, 2018)

Gambitek said:


> Does the R-28 let me cycle between my speaks and headphones with an easy switch like the R2R-11?


Of course.


----------



## sumpao

Hey guy did r-28
Can put 2 headphone at the same time?

Did this will effect device or sound?


----------



## Suppa92

xenithon said:


> They say a picture is worth a thousand words so this is how I’d illustrate it.
> 
> Left is R2R - natural, more gentle, all the details are there but not “in your face”.
> 
> Right is ESS - same level of detail but sometimes a slight sheen, a bit of a brightening / sharpening filter.


Amazing. Now I have an idea about the term "smooth sound" of r2r. Really appreciate.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Hey guy did r-28
> Can put 2 headphone at the same time?
> 
> Did this will effect device or sound?


According to Kingwa yes you can. Won’t affect the device but not sure how it might affect the sound.


----------



## Currawong

You could probably just ask, when ordering, if it can be made with 2 4-pin XLR sockets for best results.


----------



## maellen

How's the DAC section stands against R2R-1?


----------



## xevman

The dac section should be equivalent, It uses the same 4 da8 modules and the same fpga processor. That being said it shares a power supply with the amp which could hinder performance


----------



## FredA

xevman said:


> The dac section should be equivalent, It uses the same 4 da8 modules and the same fpga processor. That being said it shares a power supply with the amp which could hinder performance


The r-28 features 4 da boards instead of 2 and an altera dsp. It's both a dac upgrade and an amp upgrade. The power supply is much better as well. That said, the r2r 11 is no slouch but given the price difference, this is just normal to get a better product with the r-28. Volume control is also superior, being a relay unit insteat of a pot.


----------



## muckyfingers (Jul 14, 2018)

FredA said:


> The r-28 features 4 da boards instead of 2 and an altera dsp. It's both a dac upgrade and an amp upgrade. The power supply is much better as well. That said, the r2r 11 is no slouch but given the price difference, this is just normal to get a better product with the r-28. Volume control is also superior, being a relay unit insteat of a pot.



The person had asked to compare to the R2R-1, which is R2R DAC only, not the R2R-11 DAC/AMP combo.


I wonder how the R28 compares to my older set up, the C-2.1 amp and DAC19-DSP1.


----------



## FredA

69mustang said:


> The person had asked to compare to the R2R-1, which is R2R DAC only, not the R2R-11 DAC/AMP combo.
> 
> 
> I wonder how the R28 compares to my older set up, the C-2.1 amp and DAC19-DSP1.


Sorry, misread. Same dac really but sharing supply with the amp section.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> According to Kingwa yes you can. Won’t affect the device but not sure how it might affect the sound.


Ok i ask Kingwa 
He said can run both headphone 
With single end  and balance
With no sound degrade
This is good you can share with someone


----------



## FredA

sumpao said:


> Ok i ask Kingwa
> He said can run both headphone
> With single end  and balance
> With no sound degrade
> This is good you can share with someone


The only thing you can't do is to run two low-impedance sets at the same time. Two set under 35 ohms lets say.


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> The only thing you can't do is to run two low-impedance sets at the same time. Two set under 35 ohms lets say.



That may be the limit for this device
But lucky me i am not fan of iem


----------



## thebkt

FredA said:


> The only thing you can't do is to run two low-impedance sets at the same time. Two set under 35 ohms lets say.


Why's that?


----------



## sumpao

thebkt said:


> Why's that?




I think it because the signal is too powerful and it not design for iem
I think.


----------



## gLer (Jul 15, 2018)

sumpao said:


> I think it because the signal is too powerful and it not design for iem
> I think.


I second that. I mistakenly went from low gain to F mode (65-step high gain) with my Elears on. Luckily I was only at about 30% power, but for the millisecond it took me to switch off the amp I nearly blew the Elears and eardrums off my head! This amp is stupidly powerful - don’t think I’ve gone above 10% power, and in balanced mode listen at around 3%-5% (based on the exponential volume graph).

PS. And that was in SE mode. Don’t want to think what would have happened if I had the headphones connected balanced!


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I second that. I mistakenly went from low gain to F mode (65-step high gain) with my Elears on. Luckily I was only at about 30% power, but for the millisecond it took me to switch off the amp I nearly blew the Elears and eardrums off my head! This amp is stupidly powerful - don’t think I’ve gone above 10% power, and in balanced mode listen at around 3%-5% (based on the exponential volume graph).
> 
> PS. And that was in SE mode. Don’t want to think what would have happened if I had the headphones connected balanced!



F mode is a trap to destroy your ear haha


----------



## Currawong

F mode is obviously for headphones like the old HE-6 or other insensitive planars. It doesn't do too badly with the Susvaras in this mode.


----------



## FredA (Jul 15, 2018)

sumpao said:


> That may be the limit for this device
> But lucky me i am not fan of iem





thebkt said:


> Why's that?


I don't know the exact limit but driving two low impedance hp set will eventually color the sound. Also, sound quality will eventually degrade, like bass control and overall control. One should ask Kingwa what is the min impedance recommended. It is to be considered that two hp set are connected in parallel when driven simultaneously. So two 30ohms set mean a 15ohms load. If the load is difficult (complex), sound quality will be more affected. On the other hand, two 300ohms set will sound a good as one because not much current is needed.


----------



## Eurasian60

Anybody else get an email about a firmware update for their R-28?  Any idea what the update does, specifically?


----------



## FredA

Eurasian60 said:


> Anybody else get an email about a firmware update for their R-28?  Any idea what the update does, specifically?


Check the r2r 7 thread. We are currently trying a new firmware. The sound is more analog and resolved. There is a better sense of space with it. It is 100% fatigue-free as well. I assume the r-28 will benefit from similar improvments.


----------



## Eurasian60

Thanks FredA,

Any downsides you're aware of?  I only have a few hours on my unit, so will probably wait a bit to try the update.  So far I am extremely happy with the R-28 -- it is very powerful and has no problem driving my K1000s to a satisfying level.  Also it seems to run quite a bit cooler than my M-11.


----------



## FredA (Jul 15, 2018)

Eurasian60 said:


> Thanks FredA,
> 
> Any downsides you're aware of?  I only have a few hours on my unit, so will probably wait a bit to try the update.  So far I am extremely happy with the R-28 -- it is very powerful and has no problem driving my K1000s to a satisfying level.  Also it seems to run quite a bit cooler than my M-11.


It may have a little less punch, not sure which fw is used with the r-28. Still quite dynamic. With headphones, it's my favorite so far. Best soundstage to date and i love the bass. At this stage, we can call it a beta version. There could be glitches left, but not so many.


----------



## normanl

Does R-28 have the same issue of pops as R-11 reported by some owners?


----------



## gLer

normanl said:


> Does R-28 have the same issue of pops as R-11 reported by some owners?


No it does not, nor does it have the DSD playback noise issues of the R2R-11. It does have a very faint pop when switching between DSD and PCM playback, as do most dacs. Overall it’s a very solid upgrade over the 11 series.


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> I don't know the exact limit but driving two low impedance hp set will eventually color the sound. Also, sound quality will eventually degrade, like bass control and overall control. One should ask Kingwa what is the min impedance recommended. It is to be considered that two hp set are connected in parallel when driven simultaneously. So two 30ohms set mean a 15ohms load. If the load is difficult (complex), sound quality will be more affected. On the other end, two 300ohms set will sound a good as one because not much current is needed.





gLer said:


> No it does not, nor does it have the DSD playback noise issues of the R2R-11. It does have a very faint pop when switching between DSD and PCM playback, as do most dacs. Overall it’s a very solid upgrade over the 11 series.




It not have a pop when play normally . And when switching DSD to PCM I notice some Pop sound but it not happen regularly.
Don't think this is a big issue.

But if you a person who change volume to match every song.
You will here a faint pop sound when you change volume during the song.

I not sure this happen to other dac/amp or not but R-28 have this problem.


----------



## sumpao

And there is a problem when i close the device my headphone will have a sound that very annoying when you close something it sound like "fup fuu: a slow period.
mostly I prevent that by zero volume but due to R-28 volume is pretty slow to reach zero I tend to go to preamp mode.
not sure how other do.


----------



## xenithon

sumpao said:


> But if you a person who change volume to match every song.



Are you sure that’s a pop? I hear the sound of the digital relay changing volume (at the volume knob) but dead silent through the headphones.


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> Are you sure that’s a pop? I hear the sound of the digital relay changing volume (at the volume knob) but dead silent through the headphones.



Yes I pretty sure it a faint pop.

But I will check in to that again.

Now  i will do it intentionally to check if it a pop in headphone or in the knob


----------



## spacequeen7

gLer said:


> No it does not, nor does it have the DSD playback noise issues of the R2R-11. It does have a very faint pop when switching between DSD and PCM playback, as do most dacs. Overall it’s a very solid upgrade over the 11 series.


iirc you quote Kingwa saying that the noise is due to R2R nature ,I don't see how would this change from R2R11 to R2R 28 since both are ladder DAC and have same USB interface


----------



## FredA

sumpao said:


> Yes I pretty sure it a faint pop.
> 
> But I will check in to that again.
> 
> Now  i will do it intentionally to check if it a pop in headphone or in the knob


This is very subtle but there can be some slight noise when switching volume. It is normal with relay volume. This effect is reduced to a point where, wearing an open hp set, the noise by the relays themself from the enclosure is louder than the noise coming thought the hp set.


----------



## fob69

The pops on volume change with relay switchs is due to a not nul DC offset on the output. The more DC offset there is the more pops there are. On my second NFB 29 i had a very high dc offset on outut. magna hi fi did adjust the resistrors on output and leave a zero pop volume change.
Audio gd does not use condos on ouptuts to remove dc component but a dc compensation that is sometimes not perfect (but there is no coloration due to decoupling caps).

B.


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> This is very subtle but there can be some slight noise when switching volume. It is normal with relay volume. This effect is reduced to a point where, wearing an open hp set, the noise by the relays themself from the enclosure is louder than the noise coming thought the hp set.



Yes the pop noise is very little
The volume knot is louder than the pop but anyway you still can hear it.

If you use close headphone. 
That would be a more problem than close. It not a major problem though


----------



## Greg121986

I've been watching this thread pretty closely and I'm wondering if anyone can help me make a decision. I already have an Auralic Taurus MKII but I've been without a DAC for awhile. I could sell the Taurus for seed money and just get the R-28. Or, I could keep the Taurus and get an R2R-1. This is going to be an office setup so it will see very consistent use and lately my headphone setup has become more of my "critical listening" area as opposed to me stereo. 

What does everyone think? Headphones are Focal Clear.


----------



## Ake_Y (Jul 16, 2018)

I just got my R-28 today. Initially, the sound has some noise artifact like listening to vinyl or old cassette tape. However, I tried installing Amanero drivers : https://amanero.com/drivers.htm. After that, it's totally improved. It's clearer without any noise. My AD2000 is never sounded this good. I'm totally happy with it.

From below image, I have put the volume to 50 for my Audio Technica : ATH-AD2000, which impedance is 40 ohm. Is that normal level?

Note : You have to install the drivers from Audio-GD or Amanero website, if you want ASIO drivers.


----------



## xenithon

Ake_Y said:


> I just got my R-28 today. Initially, the sound has some noise artifact like listening to vinyl or old cassette tape. However, I tried installing Amanero drivers : https://amanero.com/drivers.htm. After that, it's totally improved. It's clearer without any noise. My AD2000 is never sounded this good. I'm totally happy with it.
> 
> From below image, I have put the volume to 50 for my Audio Technica : ATH-AD2000, which impedance is 40 ohm. Is that normal level?
> 
> Note : You have to install the drivers from Audio-GD or Amanero website, if you want ASIO drivers.


Congrats and enjoy!

Mine was dead silent and clean from the first moment it powered on. Using a Mac though so works natively sans needing any drivers. 

Level 40 sounds about right seeing as it’s on L power. Some may suggest using it on H as that is the intended / optimal config. Low impedance headphones for me on H is around 30 for comfortable listening.


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> iirc you quote Kingwa saying that the noise is due to R2R nature ,I don't see how would this change from R2R11 to R2R 28 since both are ladder DAC and have same USB interface


Yes, he did suggest it was due to the nature of the R2R dac and NOS - in other words, no oversampling to remove the low level noise generated by DSD conversion that the R2R-11 doesn’t completely eliminate. I can only tell you that in OS 8x mode the R-28 has zero DSD noise no matter how high I turn up the volume. I haven’t tested it in NOS mode yet, and will report back here once I do.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Yes the pop noise is very little
> The volume knot is louder than the pop but anyway you still can hear it.
> 
> If you use close headphone.
> That would be a more problem than close. It not a major problem though


I can hardly hear the volume pot changing when music is playing at a reasonable volume, and I don’t hear any pops at all. Using a balanced open headphone (Focal Elear).


----------



## gLer

Ladies and gentlemen: my endgame


----------



## spacequeen7

why U no  Stax ?


----------



## fob69

Currawong said:


> R-28 has arrived. Out of the box it is quite mellow and very listenable. I'm going to see how it sounds after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.



Hi Currawong,

It gets its two burnin weeks !
How is it now ?

B.


----------



## ballhead

well, something different - this one is with singxer usb upgrade from magnahifi. ~100h, on NOS 3b (S4 on), PLL on - seams like best for me now (will check again after proper burning).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I can hardly hear the volume pot changing when music is playing at a reasonable volume, and I don’t hear any pops at all. Using a balanced open headphone (Focal Elear).



I think the volume changing knob sound quite noticeable I use open headphone also.

For the Pop in the headphone it a very very very small one in the background of music.

I use my remote to switch volume and i still notice it.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Ladies and gentlemen: my endgame



Nice system and can. I hope someday I can afford Audeze


----------



## xenithon

gLer said:


> Ladies and gentlemen: my endgame



Beautiful setup and a beautiful journey to get there. Heard it with the Elear (brilliant) and LCD (magic) and can only imagine the control it brings to the Atticus whilst maintaining the ZMFs signature warmth and body.


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> why U no  Stax ?


To be honest I’m not a big fan of Stax. Don’t like the vintage looks and cheap build quality (especially for the price), and although the sound is about as resolving as airy and fast as you can get with a pair of headphones, I also find it lacks the body and ‘punch’ of the best dynamic and planar headphones. If I only listened to classical and jazz I’d consider a Stax, but for everything else I prefer planar and dynamic.


----------



## gLer

@FredA and @JaMo can you briefly elaborate on the differences you hear between OS 8x and NOS 3 (I’ve read the R2R-7 thread but don’t have a clear cut idea of why I would choose one over the other)? Am I correct in saying NOS 3 would be closer to the ‘organic’ NOS R2R sound like the stock R2R-11?

Also what are the benefits of enabling PLL?

Thanks!


----------



## FredA (Jul 17, 2018)

gLer said:


> @FredA and @JaMo can you briefly elaborate on the differences you hear between OS 8x and NOS 3 (I’ve read the R2R-7 thread but don’t have a clear cut idea of why I would choose one over the other)? Am I correct in saying NOS 3 would be closer to the ‘organic’ NOS R2R sound like the stock R2R-11?
> 
> Also what are the benefits of enabling PLL?
> 
> Thanks!


I don't use the pll, as the recloking circuit provides a clean clock signal. But whatever effects it has soundwise, if you prefer with it, it's up to you to use it, there is no right or wrong. I prefer without but only tried it briefy during the first weeks of ownership.

As for nos3, it is the one that is like the r2r 11: it's less dynamic and more organic. The 8x os is just the opposite.


----------



## Currawong

fob69 said:


> Hi Currawong,
> 
> It gets its two burnin weeks !
> How is it now ?
> ...



It's nice. Not quite as dynamic as the 2.5 to 5x as expensive set-ups I have here. It's also a bit flatter-sounding with the built-in amp, but it is pleasant to listen with in general.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> It's nice. Not quite as dynamic as the 2.5 to 5x as expensive set-ups I have here. It's also a bit flatter-sounding with the built-in amp, but it is pleasant to listen with in general.


Good to know. Hope your review also compares it to similarly priced gear


----------



## sumpao

Currawong said:


> It's nice. Not quite as dynamic as the 2.5 to 5x as expensive set-ups I have here. It's also a bit flatter-sounding with the built-in amp, but it is pleasant to listen with in general.



I want to know the quality of the 

Headphone amp 

Pre amp also 

 If you can compare those two on your review.


----------



## gLer (Jul 17, 2018)

FredA said:


> I don't use the pll, as the recloking circuit provides a clean clock signal. But whatever effects it has soundwise, if you prefer with it, it's up to you to use it, there is no right or wrong. I prefer without but only tried it briefy during the first weeks of ownership.
> 
> As for nos3, it is the one that is like the r2r 11: it's less dynamic and more organic. The 8x os is just the opposite.


Thanks for this. Do you find OS 8x has a blacker background/less noise than NOS? Is it also more detailed/resolving?

I’m finding the R-28 in default OS 8x mode more ‘silent’, spacious, and resolving than the R2R-11, so wondering if that’s a factor of NOS/OS or of the higher quality amp/dac components in general?

I also wonder if OS is the reason the R-28 renders DSDs perfectly compared to the noise issues with some DSDs on the R2R-11.


----------



## FredA (Jul 17, 2018)

gLer said:


> Thanks for this. Do you find OS 8x has a blacker background/less noise than NOS? Is it also more detailed/resolving?
> 
> I’m finding the R-28 in default OS 8x mode more ‘silent’, spacious, and resolving than the R2R-11, so wondering if that’s a factor of NOS/OS or of the higher quality amp/dac components in general?
> 
> I also wonder if OS is the reason the R-28 renders DSDs perfectly compared to the noise issues with some DSDs on the R2R-11.


I think the backgound is comparable between os and nos. It's more a matter of having a balanced architecture and better power supply between the r2r 11 and r-28. Dsd playback is enhanced becaused of the dsp, i guess. Could be upsampled to dsd512 or something like that. Or converted to multibit pulses like the latest delta-sigma do.


----------



## xenithon

Some early impressions to add:


It feels effortless. You can tell it has lots of headroom and you can feel it in the control and ability to provide an exceptionally nuanced presentation
It sounds natural. Being able to hear what makes an instrument sound real is something beautiful to behold. From the drum membrane of a rock band, to the vibrato of a cello in a classic piece, to the air going in and out of a saxophone in smooth jazz
Compared to the R2R-11 the primary differences are (more of all of these): speed, control, transparency. 
R2R-11 was warm and, only in comparison, almost too sluggish (bear in mind this is not fully burned in and still in the most neutral 8x OS mode)

Imagine liquid running through a pipe; its as if the liquid in the R2R-11 was quite a lot more viscous
I was trying to think of a word to describe what this component communicates. Then I started thinking about the fact that ultimately any music reproduction (speakers, headphones, etc.) is a phantom; a creation of your brain as it interprets the sound waves sent to it. And with that in mind, the word I would summarize it as is: _believable
_
It's simple and perhaps not immediately flattering, but it is an incredibly powerful trait - because it lets one connect with the music without the brain second guessing itself.


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> Some early impressions to add:
> 
> 
> It feels effortless. You can tell it has lots of headroom and you can feel it in the control and ability to provide an exceptionally nuanced presentation
> ...


This is almost to a point what I’m discovering with the R-28. Believable is a strong word but very apt, and it seems to apply across all of my headphones (even with their different flavours). The only priviso is that the source files need to be top shelf, because the R-28 (at least in default OS 8x mode) will pick a poor source apart.


----------



## Currawong

DSD playback is managed via a different section on the ladder boards, though the DSD processing section is not a ladder.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> DSD playback is managed via a different section on the ladder boards, though the DSD processing section is not a ladder.


Thanks, that makes sense, since ladders aren’t supposed to be compatible with DSD. Still not sure how the R-28 (or R2R-11 for that matter) process DSD files, but I’m finding both units to be far more proficient with playing PCM than DSD, and will likely stick with PCM for the bulk of my listening. In fact all my DSDs have been converted to hi-res PCM, which to my ears sound more ‘alive’ on the AGD ladder dacs.

I did notice earlier today the R-28 issues a series of soft to loud pops, and even the occasional ‘screech’, when switching between PCM and DSD files, something I can certainly live without (especially since the R-28, unlike the R2R-11, makes zero noise between PCM sample rate changes).


----------



## gLer

Regarding the new Altera/FPGA firmware being tested (or already released?) for the R-28, can one of the gents in the know (@Currawong @FredA @JaMo - I’m looking at you) confirm if it’s the same/similar FW currently being discussed by the R2R-7 crowd?


----------



## FredA

xenithon said:


> Some early impressions to add:
> 
> 
> It feels effortless. You can tell it has lots of headroom and you can feel it in the control and ability to provide an exceptionally nuanced presentation
> ...


I think it's one of Kingwa's design goal to achieve the most real rendering he can. I support this goal 100%.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Regarding the new Altera/FPGA firmware being tested (or already released?) for the R-28, can one of the gents in the know (@Currawong @FredA @JaMo - I’m looking at you) confirm if it’s the same/similar FW currently being discussed by the R2R-7 crowd?


I don't know but it is safe to assume one will be derived from the other, the r-28 firmware that is.


----------



## normanl

gLer said:


> This is almost to a point what I’m discovering with the R-28. Believable is a strong word but very apt, and it seems to apply across all of my headphones (even with their different flavours). The only priviso is that the source files need to be top shelf, because the R-28 (at least in default OS 8x mode) will pick a poor source apart.


What do you mean by "Believable"? Is it like or close to a live realistic concert sound?


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> Some early impressions to add:
> 
> 
> It feels effortless. You can tell it has lots of headroom and you can feel it in the control and ability to provide an exceptionally nuanced presentation
> ...




thanks for review. I agree that R-28 have a lot of headroom and bring sound that I don't hear out a like drum and guitar.

believable is a big word. but I would say R-28 did their job well in general way.

I also believe that this is not the best in sound quality. But it sound great to it price.


----------



## Dnguyen926

Hello, how would you guys rate this combo vs the Mj2 (lisst tubes)/Gumby combo? Actually, I'm more concern with the dac portion of the R28. Is the dac in the R-28 on par with the Gumby? If so I might just sell the Gumby and get the r28 then preout into the Mj2.


----------



## sumpao

Dnguyen926 said:


> Hello, how would you guys rate this combo vs the Mj2 (lisst tubes)/Gumby combo? Actually, I'm more concern with the dac portion of the R28. Is the dac in the R-28 on par with the Gumby? If so I might just sell the Gumby and get the r28 then preout into the Mj2.



If I were you I will stay with  Gungnir. Why bother Dac/Amp if you already have a decent dac.


----------



## Dnguyen926

It's because I want a solid state amp and I think the R28 will be a better choice than the Mj2 with Lisst. Also, I'm planning on purchasing the Cavalli Liquid Platinum when it comes out. If I like it then there wouldn't be a need for the Mj2. So if the dacs are comparable then the purchase of the R28 will also be a downsizing opportunity as my space is limited.


----------



## sumpao

Dnguyen926 said:


> It's because I want a solid state amp and I think the R28 will be a better choice than the Mj2 with Lisst. Also, I'm planning on purchasing the Cavalli Liquid Platinum when it comes out. If I like it then there wouldn't be a need for the Mj2. So if the dacs are comparable then the purchase of the R28 will also be a downsizing opportunity as my space is limited.



What is your system right now?


----------



## Dnguyen926

Mj2\Gumby, ZMF Auteur, LCD 3, and HD650.


----------



## xenithon

If all you need is a dac then look at the R2R-1 as it has essentially the same dac section. That can feed into your Mjolnir, Cavalli, or any other amp


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> I don't know but it is safe to assume one will be derived from the other, the r-28 firmware that is.


Thanks, do you know if the new R-28 firmware is official or still in beta testing? I believe the R2R-7 fw is official but not sure about the R-28. Also is it just Altera fw for the R-28 or also new DA fw?


----------



## Dnguyen926

xenithon said:


> If all you need is a dac then look at the R2R-1 as it has essentially the same dac section. That can feed into your Mjolnir, Cavalli, or any other amp


I actually want the solid state haha. Was just wondering if the dac is good enough so I can switch over.


----------



## PopZeus

Dnguyen926 said:


> I actually want the solid state haha. Was just wondering if the dac is good enough so I can switch over.



Since the R-28 has the same DAC as the R2R-1, yeah, it's excellent.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Thanks, do you know if the new R-28 firmware is official or still in beta testing? I believe the R2R-7 fw is official but not sure about the R-28. Also is it just Altera fw for the R-28 or also new DA fw?


No official release yet for either. But they will within a couple of weeks or a little more, as things are going right now.


----------



## Currawong

I feel the sound quality of the R28 jumps up with a better amp (I tested with the Master 9) so if you wanted an R1 but also an amp to use in the mean time until you got another, that'd work.

I should really compare the R28 with the Mojo. There were a few comments that the Gumby was at about the same level as it, DAC-wise, though that was a while ago and there have been changes since, mainly with the USB.


----------



## sumpao

Currawong said:


> I feel the sound quality of the R28 jumps up with a better amp (I tested with the Master 9) so if you wanted an R1 but also an amp to use in the mean time until you got another, that'd work.
> 
> I should really compare the R28 with the Mojo. There were a few comments that the Gumby was at about the same level as it, DAC-wise, though that was a while ago and there have been changes since, mainly with the USB.



Did the jump is significant in R28 internal amp compare to Master 9.


----------



## Currawong

sumpao said:


> Did the jump is significant in R28 internal amp compare to Master 9.



With the Utopias, the jump to Master 9 was quite noticeable. I am going to try with the Focal Elex soon though, which is a more realistic pairing. However in F(ull) mode, there is plenty of power for headphones like the Focal range.


----------



## sumpao

Currawong said:


> With the Utopias, the jump to Master 9 was quite noticeable. I am going to try with the Focal Elex soon though, which is a more realistic pairing. However in F(ull) mode, there is plenty of power for headphones like the Focal range.



Ok thanks.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> With the Utopias, the jump to Master 9 was quite noticeable. I am going to try with the Focal Elex soon though, which is a more realistic pairing. However in F(ull) mode, there is plenty of power for headphones like the Focal range.


There’s plenty of power in (L)ow Gain mode for the Focals. I generally don’t go past 50 on the dial with my Elear, and that’s less than 10% of the amp’s output capacity. In (H)igh Gain that drops to 40. I don’t even bother with (F) for the Elear - or the Atticus or LCD-3 for that matter.


----------



## thebkt (Jul 19, 2018)

Woah... When using my clears out of the balanced out I generally have the volume at around 12 on low gain with the nfb-1.  Around 30 single ended for the 6xx mind you.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> There’s plenty of power in (L)ow Gain mode for the Focals. I generally don’t go past 50 on the dial with my Elear, and that’s less than 10% of the amp’s output capacity. In (H)igh Gain that drops to 40. I don’t even bother with (F) for the Elear - or the Atticus or LCD-3 for that matter.



I believe even the amp have the reserve power left does not mean you not use it to it full potential.

The potential of amp come from sound quality it produce.


----------



## cbf123

Hmmm, I just don't know what to do. Some serious umm-ing and ah-ing has led me to recently changing my headphones back to the HD800 (stock), and these are being paired with the NFB-11.28 - which itself is only now around a month old. I bought the NFB first, and if I'd known I was going to get the HD800, I'd probably have bought the R2R-11.

Now we have the R-28, and I'm wondering from you guys that own them (and have hopefully heard the cheaper, Sabre-implementing Audio GD gear), is it worth me just biting the bullet and getting the R-28 / moving my 11.28 on??

Cheers!


----------



## gLer

thebkt said:


> Woah... When using my clears out of the balanced out I generally have the volume at around 12 on low gain with the nfb-1.  Around 30 single ended for the 6xx mind you.


That’s what I call ultra low volume listening  

I don’t think I’d hear much at 12, even with the Elear. I have some hearing loss but not that much. Even my loudness-averse brother listens to his Auteur, nevermind easy-to-drive Elear, at a ‘comfortable for him’ 30 on the R-28. I haven’t heard the 6XX on the R-28, but given my past experience with them I can easily imagine driving them at around 60 on high gain (still less than 10% power mind you) on the R-28.

By the by a friend and I did some volume-matched testing between his NFB-1 and my R-28 last weekend and I can tell you they’re essentially identical. We did some A/B switching with three different headphones and power output between the two was indistinguishable. So it’s definitely not a case of the NFB-1 having more power than the R-28, in case anyone was wondering.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I believe even the amp have the reserve power left does not mean you not use it to it full potential.
> 
> The potential of amp come from sound quality it produce.


Which is the best sound quality I’ve heard out of any amp I’ve ever used...


----------



## gLer

cbf123 said:


> Hmmm, I just don't know what to do. Some serious umm-ing and ah-ing has led me to recently changing my headphones back to the HD800 (stock), and these are being paired with the NFB-11.28 - which itself is only now around a month old. I bought the NFB first, and if I'd known I was going to get the HD800, I'd probably have bought the R2R-11.
> 
> Now we have the R-28, and I'm wondering from you guys that own them (and have hopefully heard the cheaper, Sabre-implementing Audio GD gear), is it worth me just biting the bullet and getting the R-28 / moving my 11.28 on??
> 
> Cheers!


What is it about the NFB-11.28 and HD800 combo you don’t like that you believe the R2R-11 or R-28 will ‘fix’?


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Which is the best sound quality I’ve heard out of any amp I’ve ever used...



Yes it sound good but I not sure that it come from Dac part or Amp part.


----------



## sumpao

cbf123 said:


> Hmmm, I just don't know what to do. Some serious umm-ing and ah-ing has led me to recently changing my headphones back to the HD800 (stock), and these are being paired with the NFB-11.28 - which itself is only now around a month old. I bought the NFB first, and if I'd known I was going to get the HD800, I'd probably have bought the R2R-11.
> 
> Now we have the R-28, and I'm wondering from you guys that own them (and have hopefully heard the cheaper, Sabre-implementing Audio GD gear), is it worth me just biting the bullet and getting the R-28 / moving my 11.28 on??
> 
> Cheers!



I heard that HD800 pair well with Burson sololist amp
HD800 is picky and I would follow the system anybody had use in Head Fi forum before.

For R28 I ask Kingwa what headphone I should use with it he said HD800.
But anyway I don't have HD800 anymore. So sad


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Yes it sound good but I not sure that it come from Dac part or Amp part.


Given that the amp is extremely transparent and powerful, and it’s passing on the signal from the dac, I’d say it’s a combination of both. That after all is the point of an all-in-one like the R-28. If it sounds equivalent to the NFB-1/R2R-1stack - which I firmly believe it does - and costs about $400 less, it’s an exceptional package, considering how good that stack sounds.


----------



## cbf123

gLer said:


> What is it about the NFB-11.28 and HD800 combo you don’t like that you believe the R2R-11 or R-28 will ‘fix’?



A very good question - thank you! I should have really mentioned that. So, I've previously owned the Master 11, and whilst my memories at this point are not perfect in describing its sound, I enjoyed the full sound that it provided with a wide range of headphones, and I also had the R2R-15 briefly as well, and I liked again its weighty and substantial presentation. 

I appreciate that these characteristics themselves are not particularly (if at all!) inherent in the HD800, and I do like the incisive sound that I get from my current setup, but I feel there's a more pronounced level of grain at the top end that I'd more than likely get from the R-28 (from guesswork!), as well as playing to the HD800 strengths of imaging and separation. 

My experience with these other Audio GD products makes me think that I'd be likely to pick the R-28 if I was starting again from scratch. The only thing holding me back is that I've literally JUST bought these two products, and I'll inevitably have to take the hit on the 11.28 to fund the R-28. 

I'd do it if I thought that my previous experiences would hold up with the the R-28 and that I, too, could go 'end game' with this setup.

Thanks again!


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> That’s what I call ultra low volume listening
> 
> I don’t think I’d hear much at 12, even with the Elear. I have some hearing loss but not that much. Even my loudness-averse brother listens to his Auteur, nevermind easy-to-drive Elear, at a ‘comfortable for him’ 30 on the R-28. I haven’t heard the 6XX on the R-28, but given my past experience with them I can easily imagine driving them at around 60 on high gain (still less than 10% power mind you) on the R-28.
> 
> By the by a friend and I did some volume-matched testing between his NFB-1 and my R-28 last weekend and I can tell you they’re essentially identical. We did some A/B switching with three different headphones and power output between the two was indistinguishable. So it’s definitely not a case of the NFB-1 having more power than the R-28, in case anyone was wondering.




Did you use R28 as a dac and pass to NFB 1 and compare with the R-28 it self


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Did you use R28 as a dac and pass to NFB 1 and compare with the R-28 it self


Among others tests, yes, that’s exactly what we did. Both balanced and SE.


----------



## gLer

cbf123 said:


> A very good question - thank you! I should have really mentioned that. So, I've previously owned the Master 11, and whilst my memories at this point are not perfect in describing its sound, I enjoyed the full sound that it provided with a wide range of headphones, and I also had the R2R-15 briefly as well, and I liked again its weighty and substantial presentation.
> 
> I appreciate that these characteristics themselves are not particularly (if at all!) inherent in the HD800, and I do like the incisive sound that I get from my current setup, but I feel there's a more pronounced level of grain at the top end that I'd more than likely get from the R-28 (from guesswork!), as well as playing to the HD800 strengths of imaging and separation.
> 
> ...


I still can’t say for sure the R-28 will be an improvement for what you’re specifically wanting, but I can tell you from my experience with the 11.28 (actually 11.32, close enough) and my own R2R-11, the R-28 is a significant step up form both. @xenithon in a post a few pages back covers the benefits he’s hearing in the R-28 having upgraded from an R2R-11 as well, so that’s worth a read.

As for taking a ‘hit’, and without making any assumptions, if you can afford the jump up to the R-28 financially speaking, the small hit you might take on the $350 NFB-11 shouldn’t be a train smash, and in fact you will probably take a very minimal hit - if any - given the quality of the 11.28. 

Good luck with your decision either way. It’s all quality gear you have there!


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Among others tests, yes, that’s exactly what we did. Both balanced and SE.



Ok then it good to know. thanks.
for it price it a very goods system.
And we can change the sound signature too.
Which I will try later.
What is burn in time for R28 did I have to pass 500 hour or so?

I think I just pass my 100 hour


----------



## xenithon

cbf123 said:


> A very good question - thank you! I should have really mentioned that. So, I've previously owned the Master 11, and whilst my memories at this point are not perfect in describing its sound, I enjoyed the full sound that it provided with a wide range of headphones, and I also had the R2R-15 briefly as well, and I liked again its weighty and substantial presentation.
> 
> I appreciate that these characteristics themselves are not particularly (if at all!) inherent in the HD800, and I do like the incisive sound that I get from my current setup, but I feel there's a more pronounced level of grain at the top end that I'd more than likely get from the R-28 (from guesswork!), as well as playing to the HD800 strengths of imaging and separation.
> 
> ...



One of the headphones in my trifecta is the HD800. Sometimes thought of selling it but always came back to just how brilliant it does so many things. 

I can tell you, as a treble sensitive listener (with tinnitus) the HD800 is sublime on the R-28. I do use Sonar Works, though have with all DAc/amps I have used. 

What I enjoy most is the synergy which provides the speed, clarity and transparency the HD800 is known for while still having sufficient weight, bass punch and composure up top to not fatigue my ears. 

I haven’t heard the x.28 but had the R2R-11 and it also had great control though felt it slowed down the 800 a little too much. One of the benefits of the R-28 is the adjustable OS/NOS modes so it can be tweaked to find the right setting for your preferences.


----------



## cbf123

gLer said:


> I still can’t say for sure the R-28 will be an improvement for what you’re specifically wanting, but I can tell you from my experience with the 11.28 (actually 11.32, close enough) and my own R2R-11, the R-28 is a significant step up form both. @xenithon in a post a few pages back covers the benefits he’s hearing in the R-28 having upgraded from an R2R-11 as well, so that’s worth a read.
> 
> As for taking a ‘hit’, and without making any assumptions, if you can afford the jump up to the R-28 financially speaking, the small hit you might take on the $350 NFB-11 shouldn’t be a train smash, and in fact you will probably take a very minimal hit - if any - given the quality of the 11.28.
> 
> Good luck with your decision either way. It’s all quality gear you have there!



Thanks again for the replies, much appreciated. I'll have a think and hopefully join the club soon!


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I still can’t say for sure the R-28 will be an improvement for what you’re specifically wanting, but I can tell you from my experience with the 11.28 (actually 11.32, close enough) and my own R2R-11, the R-28 is a significant step up form both. @xenithon in a post a few pages back covers the benefits he’s hearing in the R-28 having upgraded from an R2R-11 as well, so that’s worth a read.
> 
> As for taking a ‘hit’, and without making any assumptions, if you can afford the jump up to the R-28 financially speaking, the small hit you might take on the $350 NFB-11 shouldn’t be a train smash, and in fact you will probably take a very minimal hit - if any - given the quality of the 11.28.
> 
> Good luck with your decision either way. It’s all quality gear you have there!



I speak from someone who previous own 11.38 before. I don't think 11.38  amp part is that powerful.

For R28 yes it amp part is powerful it can drive any can to it peak level. 
And it a step up from 11.38 in term of sound quality detail and harmonic that you will hear more think it the music.

The big question is this R28 a good matching for your HD800. 

If you love the can you might have to find a best solution to feed them


----------



## cbf123

xenithon said:


> One of the headphones in my trifecta is the HD800. Sometimes thought of selling it but always came back to just how brilliant it does so many things.
> 
> I can tell you, as a treble sensitive listener (with tinnitus) the HD800 is sublime on the R-28. I do use Sonar Works, though have with all DAc/amps I have used.
> 
> ...



Thank you @xenithon, that was exactly what I was after. I use Sonarworks, too, and I do find that it helps, but I guess I still prefer having a hardware combination that does the work for me, as it were. Again, I bought the 11.28 when I had no intention of buying the HD800, but a deal came up for a new set for £649, and I didn't want to pass it up. 

This is the 4th or 5th time I've owned the HD800 (only on Head-Fi could a statement like this not be seen as utter insanity!!) and I know that my musical preferences totally fit 99% of what I get from this headphone and my own taste in sound - if I didn't love the thrill of the chase so much, I'd have just stuck with these many moons ago! But I think that it also justifies better amplification than I'm currently feeding it, and I just keep going back to my time with the R2R and Master 11, and thinking how they would have probably been an excellent match for the HD800.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Ok then it good to know. thanks.
> for it price it a very goods system.
> And we can change the sound signature too.
> Which I will try later.
> ...


The R-28 is burned in for 100h by Kingwa before shipping, so yours is up to 200h if you’ve added 100 already. Mine is Just over 350 all up. Can I hear a big difference? Yes, but probably more from ‘brain burn in’ than anything else. It was excellent out the box, and if anything I’m now more accustomed to the sound as I revisit my music library, so naturally it’s sounding better and better the more I listen.

Here’s some pics of our test setup from the weekend:


----------



## gLer

cbf123 said:


> Thank you @xenithon, that was exactly what I was after. I use Sonarworks, too, and I do find that it helps, but I guess I still prefer having a hardware combination that does the work for me, as it were. Again, I bought the 11.28 when I had no intention of buying the HD800, but a deal came up for a new set for £649, and I didn't want to pass it up.
> 
> This is the 4th or 5th time I've owned the HD800 (only on Head-Fi could a statement like this not be seen as utter insanity!!) and I know that my musical preferences totally fit 99% of what I get from this headphone and my own taste in sound - if I didn't love the thrill of the chase so much, I'd have just stuck with these many moons ago! But I think that it also justifies better amplification than I'm currently feeding it, and I just keep going back to my time with the R2R and Master 11, and thinking how they would have probably been an excellent match for the HD800.


May I ask why you sold the Master 11? That thing is a beast!


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> The R-28 is burned in for 100h by Kingwa before shipping, so yours is up to 200h if you’ve added 100 already. Mine is Just over 350 all up. Can I hear a big difference? Yes, but probably more from ‘brain burn in’ than anything else. It was excellent out the box, and if anything I’m now more accustomed to the sound as I revisit my music library, so naturally it’s sounding better and better the more I listen.
> 
> Here’s some pics of our test setup from the weekend:




Nice system  and nice test.

Thanks.


----------



## cbf123

gLer said:


> May I ask why you sold the Master 11? That thing is a beast!



Of course - I guess the answer is 'stupidity' and a period of feeling like I was getting nowhere with trying to find the sound I wanted. Due to having a small home and a young child, I had to really try and keep to using closed-back cans - and I tried A LOT. I listen primarily to dark ambient / glitchy stuff / modern ambient / electronic, and I found that I was losing all the soundstage I wanted from my music, which is obviously relatively par for the course with a closed back, as well as adding more bass than I like (I'd say I'm more bass sensitive than treble). Tried Fostex, Sony Z1R all the usual suspects, and I just got tired of switching, tired of listening. So I got rid of EVERYTHING and went back to use a cheap USB DAC and cheap headphones. 

I gradually found myself drifting back into things, and a change of home setup meant that I can get away with open-back use a lot more than I could, and I just use some cheap closed-back when I have to keep the noise down. Now I wish I'd kept it, because it would have been the heart of my system, and I also lost a boatload selling it. Ack, such is life, but I don't want to keep making these mistakes again. I've done it WAY too many times. Normally I'd just jump back in on the R-28 and to hell with it, but I really just want to get it right.

Sorry for the long reply!!!


----------



## sumpao

cbf123 said:


> Of course - I guess the answer is 'stupidity' and a period of feeling like I was getting nowhere with trying to find the sound I wanted. Due to having a small home and a young child, I had to really try and keep to using closed-back cans - and I tried A LOT. I listen primarily to dark ambient / glitchy stuff / modern ambient / electronic, and I found that I was losing all the soundstage I wanted from my music, which is obviously relatively par for the course with a closed back, as well as adding more bass than I like (I'd say I'm more bass sensitive than treble). Tried Fostex, Sony Z1R all the usual suspects, and I just got tired of switching, tired of listening. So I got rid of EVERYTHING and went back to use a cheap USB DAC and cheap headphones.
> 
> I gradually found myself drifting back into things, and a change of home setup meant that I can get away with open-back use a lot more than I could, and I just use some cheap closed-back when I have to keep the noise down. Now I wish I'd kept it, because it would have been the heart of my system, and I also lost a boatload selling it. Ack, such is life, but I don't want to keep making these mistakes again. I've done it WAY too many times. Normally I'd just jump back in on the R-28 and to hell with it, but I really just want to get it right.
> 
> Sorry for the long reply!!!



Thanks for a great  story it very real life one.


----------



## Dnguyen926 (Jul 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> Given that the amp is extremely transparent and powerful, and it’s passing on the signal from the dac, I’d say it’s a combination of both. That after all is the point of an all-in-one like the R-28. If it sounds equivalent to the NFB-1/R2R-1stack - which I firmly believe it does - and costs about $400 less, it’s an exceptional package, considering how good that stack sounds.


Sorry I don't mean to repeat things but I just want to make sure. Base on this if I were to use the balance and SE preouts from the R28 going into another amp,  its safe to say that the R28 is only passing on the signal of the dac? I plan to get the R28 and use its balance preout to go into a tube amp so I want to make sure the sound signature won't change.


----------



## cbf123

Well, to avoid the torture of decision-making, I've ordered my R-28. I'll put my 11.28 up for sale once it arrives, although I'm not planning to test the two against each other (I've made my purchase at this point, I'm sticking with it). Looking forward to it, and looking forward to hopefully sticking with this setup for a long time. 

Thanks for the advice again, everyone!


----------



## sumpao

cbf123 said:


> Well, to avoid the torture of decision-making, I've ordered my R-28. I'll put my 11.28 up for sale once it arrives, although I'm not planning to test the two against each other (I've made my purchase at this point, I'm sticking with it). Looking forward to it, and looking forward to hopefully sticking with this setup for a long time.
> 
> Thanks for the advice again, everyone!



welcome to the club please give us some comment once your arrive.


----------



## gLer

cbf123 said:


> Well, to avoid the torture of decision-making, I've ordered my R-28. I'll put my 11.28 up for sale once it arrives, although I'm not planning to test the two against each other (I've made my purchase at this point, I'm sticking with it). Looking forward to it, and looking forward to hopefully sticking with this setup for a long time.
> 
> Thanks for the advice again, everyone!


Congrats! I have no doubt you’ll love it. Look forward to reading your impressions once you get it.


----------



## cbf123

sumpao said:


> welcome to the club please give us some comment once your arrive.





gLer said:


> Congrats! I have no doubt you’ll love it. Look forward to reading your impressions once you get it.



Thanks guys, for sure I'll be back in with my impressions once it's here.


----------



## sumpao

Guy this seem like a silly question.

in the back how did you know which is Right side and left side in term of input and out put.

I feed my by the side of the front panel  if the front is right hand it right hand side


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Guy this seem like a silly question.
> 
> in the back how did you know which is Right side and left side in term of input and out put.
> 
> I feed my by the side of the front panel  if the front is right hand it right hand side


Red is always right, so where you see the red analogue connectors, that’s the right in/out, and therefore the white connectors are the left in/out. So if you’re looking at the R-28 from the front, right in/out is on the right and left in/out is on the left. (If you’re looking at it from the back, as in the photo below, it’s the opposite - right is on the left, left is on the right).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Red is always right, so where you see the red analogue connectors, that’s the right in/out, and therefore the white connectors are the left in/out. So if you’re looking at the R-28 from the front, right in/out is on the right and left in/out is on the left. (If you’re looking at it from the back, as in the photo below, it’s the opposite - right is on the left, left is on the right).




Ok thank you very much


----------



## gLer (Jul 20, 2018)

Quick question for R-28 owners using balanced headphones: is the locking mechanism on your 4-pin XLR connector very stiff? Mine seems to get stuck in the ‘open’ position when I connect a balanced cable, and doesn’t spring back into the ‘locked’ position unless I gently force it back into place. It seems to be loosening up a little now with continued use but is still very stiff.

On my friend’s NFB-1, the push tab was very springy and loose, as it should be.

Edit: nevermind, I answered my own question. Seems the connector itself was just screwed in a little too tightly. Loosened the front screws and out it popped. Might just put a very thin spacer between the connector frame and the R-28 case to keep it loose.


----------



## Dnguyen926

gLer said:


> Red is always right, so where you see the red analogue connectors, that’s the right in/out, and therefore the white connectors are the left in/out. So if you’re looking at the R-28 from the front, right in/out is on the right and left in/out is on the left. (If you’re looking at it from the back, as in the photo below, it’s the opposite - right is on the left, left is on the right).


The optical In 3 is a bit cricket O.O... triggered.......


----------



## gLer

I cracked open my R-28 today to have a play with NOS modes and PLL. Will report back on my findings once I've had a proper chance to digest them (and to troubleshoot some minor issues I discovered). Meanwhile I took a bunch of pics of the R-28's internals, so thought I'd share some quality Audio-gd porn with you! 

PS. This has to be one of the most gorgeous pieces of equipment I've ever had the pleasure of owning (or shooting). Enjoy...


----------



## Astral Abyss

@gLer AGD should ditch their R-28 pics and use yours.  Nice work.


----------



## gLer

Astral Abyss said:


> @gLer AGD should ditch their R-28 pics and use yours.  Nice work.


They’d be welcome to them, for a small kickback of course


----------



## spacequeen7

This unit should be sold with see through top only ,nice picks g


----------



## normanl

Do I need to install specific ASIO or WASAPI driver for Win10 (JRiver MC) to use R-28?


----------



## Ake_Y

normanl said:


> Do I need to install specific ASIO or WASAPI driver for Win10 (JRiver MC) to use R-28?


From my experience, you need drivers from https://amanero.com/drivers.htm for ASIO. You may hear the sound difference after installing drivers as well.


----------



## capetownwatches

@gLer That's just obscenely good-looking engineering right there. Puts many so-called high end (read insanely priced) gears to shame.
I notice AGD now use branded TCXO clocks.

Looking forward to NOS impressions.
*Smashing pics btw...


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I cracked open my R-28 today to have a play with NOS modes and PLL. Will report back on my findings once I've had a proper chance to digest them (and to troubleshoot some minor issues I discovered). Meanwhile I took a bunch of pics of the R-28's internals, so thought I'd share some quality Audio-gd porn with you!
> 
> PS. This has to be one of the most gorgeous pieces of equipment I've ever had the pleasure of owning (or shooting). Enjoy...



Oh your picture is so beautiful

Thanks.


----------



## Greg121986

Just put my order in. Expecting great things!! I just sold my Auralic Taurus MKII. Hopefully the R-28 can deliver as an exceptional 1 box solution to clean up my office desk a bit.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> Just put my order in. Expecting great things!! I just sold my Auralic Taurus MKII. Hopefully the R-28 can deliver as an exceptional 1 box solution to clean up my office desk a bit.


Congrats! I have no doubt it will


----------



## maellen

How does R28 compare to NBF-1AMP+R2R-1 combo? Anyone conducted a test?


----------



## gLer

maellen said:


> How does R28 compare to NBF-1AMP+R2R-1 combo? Anyone conducted a test?


Hi. According to Kingwa they’re identical. I was going to buy the ‘stack’ until the R-28 was announced. Haven’t tried the R2R-1 myself but conducted an A/B test of the R-28 and the NFB-1 and they were virtually 1:1. 

The NFB-1 has a slight advantage of more inputs/outputs if you need them, while the R-28 has the advantage of true low/high-gain (+7db and +17db) while the NFB-1 only has one (high) gain (+16dB) with ‘high-gain’ mode reducing the number of volume steps from 99 to 64 (although actual ‘gain’ is unchanged). 

The R2R-1 has the advantage of being able to change OS/NOS modes from the front panel, but is otherwise identical to the R-28 dac section. 

Bottom line: they’re essentially the same but the R-28 will cost you quite a bit less and also take up less space.


----------



## thebkt

gLer said:


> The NFB-1 has a slight advantage of more inputs/outputs if you need them, while the R-28 has the advantage of true low/high-gain (+7db and +17db) while the NFB-1 only has one (high) gain (+16dB) with ‘high-gain’ mode reducing the number of volume steps from 99 to 64 (although actual ‘gain’ is unchanged).


One minor correction here: The gain for the NFB-1 can be customized while ordering.  I believe the options available were 0, +3, +9 and +16dB.  Don't quote me there, but the info is on the product page.  I went with +3 I believe and have had zero trouble driving my 560's and barely use the volume at all (12 in low gain mode) to drive my Clear's.


----------



## gLer

thebkt said:


> One minor correction here: The gain for the NFB-1 can be customized while ordering.  I believe the options available were 0, +3, +9 and +16dB.  Don't quote me there, but the info is on the product page.  I went with +3 I believe and have had zero trouble driving my 560's and barely use the volume at all (12 in low gain mode) to drive my Clear's.


I think you're right. I'm sure the R-28 can be likewise customised but didn't even think to ask. I'm running my Elear in high gain (+17dB) on 40 and it's very comfortable moderate volume with acoustic guitar currently playing, so either I'm deaf or you have supersonic hearing!


----------



## Gambitek

What is the audible difference between OS and NOS mode?


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> What is the audible difference between OS and NOS mode?


I've only started experimenting with this. Most (more experienced) users suggest NOS mode would be closer to the 'warm, organic' sound of the R2R-11, while OS tends to be more neutral and resolving. I've currently got mine set to OS 8x and find it both musical and resolving, certainly more detail and finesse than the R2R-11, although I'm not sure if that's a factor of OS or the better components inside the R-28. Probably a bit of both. When I switched to NOS I did hear a few very soft pops on occasion (when starting a track or switching sample rates), and any 'hiss' in a recording was also more pronounced. I guess OS cleans these sorts of 'artefacts' up at the cost of slightly more clinical sound.


----------



## Currawong

With NOS mode you'll lose detail and soundstage, but the music sounds softer, as you remove the ability of the DAC to reproduce the start of transients fully, which for some people is more pleasant.


----------



## Gambitek

Thanks. Does anyone know if the volume knob is silent like the R2R-11 or is it clicky/audible?


----------



## FredA

Gambitek said:


> Thanks. Does anyone know if the volume knob is silent like the R2R-11 or is it clicky/audible?


Audible as it is a relay volume like the whole audio-gd line-up (except r2r 11 and nfb-11).


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> Thanks. Does anyone know if the volume knob is silent like the R2R-11 or is it clicky/audible?


It’s audible but I prefer it that way. Far more accurate, can make minor tweaks, can always get back to a specific volume, can accurately compare levels between headphones and outputs, and zero channel imbalance. I don’t hear the clicks while changing volume during playback, but I like the tactile feedback.


----------



## jerick70 (Jul 24, 2018)

I just found out about the R-28.  This looks like a real gem. I've been reading all over the web and there are so many varying opinions about Audio GD gear. From, it's the worst ever to it's the best ever. What's everyone's opinion on it here?

I am very interested in trying the R-28 but don't want to lay out $1.2k and not be happy. I hate blind buying, I've been burned to many times.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> I just found out about the R-28.  This looks like a real gem. I've been reading all over the web and there are so many varying opinions about Audio GD gear. From, it's the worst ever to is the best ever. What's everyone's opinion on it here?


In my experience, for the price, there is very little to rival the R-28. Even for more money you’re normally only buying an equivalent amp, not an all-in-one. Form, features and functionality all superb. As always it depends what you’re after, what you’re listening with etc. 

For me it’s an endgame amp/dac. For some it could be overkill, for others entry level. YMMV...


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> In my experience, for the price, there is very little to rival the R-28. Even for more money you’re normally only buying an equivalent amp, not an all-in-one. Form, features and functionality all superb. As always it depends what you’re after, what you’re listening with etc.
> 
> For me it’s an endgame amp/dac. For some it could be overkill, for others entry level. YMMV...


Thanks for your input. 

I'm currently using a Violectric V281 w/ various DS DACs. Headphones include LCD-3s, HD-6XX, Fostex TH-X00 Ebony, and Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow Open. How would the R-28 pair with these? I listen to jazz, pop, female vocals, rock, and I game. So just about everything. I also like a lot of detail.


----------



## maellen

gLer said:


> Hi. According to Kingwa they’re identical. I was going to buy the ‘stack’ until the R-28 was announced. Haven’t tried the R2R-1 myself but conducted an A/B test of the R-28 and the NFB-1 and they were virtually 1:1.
> 
> The NFB-1 has a slight advantage of more inputs/outputs if you need them, while the R-28 has the advantage of true low/high-gain (+7db and +17db) while the NFB-1 only has one (high) gain (+16dB) with ‘high-gain’ mode reducing the number of volume steps from 99 to 64 (although actual ‘gain’ is unchanged).
> 
> ...



Thank you for the detail insight. I bought the NFB-1AMP about a year ago & got myself the R2R-1 just recently. R-28 was released after a week I received the R2R-1. I feel bad at first, knowing that it's cheaper, newer and could be better than the stack.

Well there are still pros & cons on both. Guess I can live with it


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> I'm currently using a Violectric V281 w/ various DS DACs. Headphones include LCD-3s, HD-6XX, Fostex TH-X00 Ebony, and Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow Open. How would the R-28 pair with these? I listen to jazz, pop, female vocals, rock, and I game. So just about everything. I also like a lot of detail.


You’ve already got a stellar amp in the V281, so the R-28 is not going to do anything for you amp-wise. As for dacs, some prefer the more clinical DS sound while others like myself prefer the more organic R2R ladder sound. If you’re only interested in the dac part of the R-28, consider getting an Audio-gd R2R-1, which is the same dac that’s in the R-28. As for synergy, my R-28 is superb with the LCD-3 and Elear, so I have no doubt it would be an excellent match for your other headphones as well. You’d have to ask others or try it for yourself to be sure - trust none but your own ears!


----------



## gLer

maellen said:


> Thank you for the detail insight. I bought the NFB-1AMP about a year ago & got myself the R2R-1 just recently. R-28 was released after a week I received the R2R-1. I feel bad at first, knowing that it's cheaper, newer and could be better than the stack.
> 
> Well there are still pros & cons on both. Guess I can live with it


I wouldn’t worry. The ‘stack’ has some advantages too, like separate discrete power supplies for the amp and dac, more inputs and outputs, and NOS/OS front panel controls. The sound will be virtually identical, so you’re not missing out on anything.


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> You’ve already got a stellar amp in the V281, so the R-28 is not going to do anything for you amp-wise. As for dacs, some prefer the more clinical DS sound while others like myself prefer the more organic R2R ladder sound. If you’re only interested in the dac part of the R-28, consider getting an Audio-gd R2R-1, which is the same dac that’s in the R-28. As for synergy, my R-28 is superb with the LCD-3 and Elear, so I have no doubt it would be an excellent match for your other headphones as well. You’d have to ask others or try it for yourself to be sure - trust none but your own ears!


I'm interested in both the amp section and the DAC.  I'm one of those that like to experiment and try everything.  So what does the R-28 do better than other amps / dacs that you've owned.


----------



## PopZeus

@gLer makes a good point. I do like being able to switch between 8x OS for hip-hop, modern pop and EDM, and NOS for just about everything else on the R2R-1.


----------



## thebkt

gLer said:


> I wouldn’t worry. The ‘stack’ has some advantages too, like separate discrete power supplies for the amp and dac, more inputs and outputs, and NOS/OS front panel controls. The sound will be virtually identical, so you’re not missing out on anything.


Plus, you've got the option to easily upgrade either amp or DAC should you trip over and land in a pile of money at some point


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> I'm interested in both the amp section and the DAC.  I'm one of those that like to experiment and try everything.  So what does the R-28 do better than other amps / dacs that you've owned.


Well it’s still early days but already the R-28 is proving to be a significant upgrade over my previous favorite dac/amp, the Audio-gd R2R-11. I’m finding it has more resolution, clarity and a wider soundstage with each of my headphones, by virtue of the headphones themselves scaling up nicely with the better amp/dac sections. 

The R2R-11 was never lacking, but having only one mode (NOS) you either liked the smoother, perhaps slightly less detailed sound, or you didn’t. With the R-28 I can swap between three NOS modes and multiple OS modes to find a great balance between accurate/organic, neutral/warm etc. This does involve opening up the top and changing jumpers, but it’s not that much of a deal. 

Ultimately I’ll settle on one preferred mode and keep it that way, and to my surprise that’s currently OS 8x mode. I’m enjoying the slightly more neutral, highly resolving, noise free, punchy sound in this mode, especially with my warm of neutral headphones. It’s almost a blend of an accurate delta sigma dac with the musicality of a ladder.

The amp section is very transparent and insanely powerful with all my headphones, so I’m never in doubt if they’re getting enough juice. The only slight kink is that I’m not finding the synergy between the R-28 and 300-ohm Atticus as good as it was with the R2R-11, and as a result may be trimming my trifecta of headphones from three to two in the near future.


----------



## gLer

thebkt said:


> Plus, you've got the option to easily upgrade either amp or DAC should you trip over and land in a pile of money at some point


There’s always that. Of course you can do the same without discarding the R-28...


----------



## gLer

PopZeus said:


> @gLer makes a good point. I do like being able to switch between 8x OS for hip-hop, modern pop and EDM, and NOS for just about everything else on the R2R-1.


It’s a bit strange that Kingwa didn’t add this functionality to the R-28. It’s not like he was lacking space on the front panel. Minor gripe, but life goes on.


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## wietschebehr (Jul 24, 2018)

gLer said:


> I wouldn’t worry. The ‘stack’ has some advantages too, like separate discrete power supplies for the amp and dac, more inputs and outputs, and NOS/OS front panel controls. The sound will be virtually identical, so you’re not missing out on anything.



I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:

*Size:*
@gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread 

*Looks:*
The stack however is 2 units with lots of cables at the back that could look bad if not managed well, where the R28 is a super clean single unit that will work 100% with only 2 wires connected (power and digital audio input) and there are obvious benefits like possibly less interference noise induced in the cables, and no need for good quality interconnect cables with the R28.

*Upgradability:*
Single units are fixed packages and upgradability is limited where you will have to sell the whole unit to change something. Of course you can just buy more equipment to plug it into the R28 (as it has all the inputs and outputs you need) if you have the money and don't need to sell to upgrade. But then you end up with a stack anyway that is now even larger. I don't think amps advance so quickly as DACs, and if like me, you will be into digital audio for a long time, you will probably want to upgrade the DAC in a couple of years and really want to keep your well run-in and great sounding mature amp.

*Marketability**:*
Larger units with higher prices might sell more difficult than smaller lower priced pieces due to less people in the market with available cash. Even though the stack is more expensive combined, you might find it much easier to sell the amp and/or dac separately, making an upgrade easier for yourself and the buyer. There are lots of guys building up to a dream system, piece by piece as they manage to save some money, and are at different stages of the journey. So it will change hands quicker I believe.


For me personally, I will gladly rather wait and save up a bit more and buy the Audio-GD 1 Stack for the above reasons, especially if it sounds identical to the R28. I don't think the one is better than the other, but you have to take all the mentioned points and apply to your own environment, your personality and what your future plans are with your system. What works for you will not work for everyone else. I've seen @gLer 's setup and have an idea what he likes. The R28 fits him perfectly.

Cheers,
W


----------



## gLer

wietschebehr said:


> I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:
> 
> *Size:*
> @gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread
> ...


Well said and expertly articulated Wietsche. Valid points all. I would add the given how much some people spend on cables (digital, audio and power), the actual cost of the stack would likely be considerably higher than the purchase price itself. You did allude to that above,, but I think it's worth emphasising.


----------



## Gambitek

Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?


----------



## capetownwatches

wietschebehr said:


> I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:
> 
> *Size:*
> @gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread
> ...



All very good points, but you missed two: a stack is better  'cos there's more stuff to play with, like cables and (usually) more buttons and switches, and secondly, an imposing stack is always sexier than a single box...


----------



## gLer (Jul 24, 2018)

Gambitek said:


> Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?


The R-28 is definitely different enough that you'd pass a double blind test between the two, especially with headphones that can take advantage of the better hardware in the R-28.

How much better though is subjective. Definitely not 3x better sound, but that’s just the law of dininishing returns. Past a certain point you’re paying twice the price for single digit ‘improvements’ and those improvements are often just a change in flavour rather than technical proficiency.

Is an LCD-3 worth twice the price of an LCD-2? That depends. It’s not ‘twice as good’ but it’s appreciably better in key aspects. Same with the R-28 and R2R-11.

But the differences go beyond sound quality alone. For example you can’t plug an external dac into the R2R-11 and just use the amp section, because it has no analogue inputs. That’s a dealbreaker for many people and could be reason alone to spend extra on something like an R-28. The R-28 is also fully balanced (and more powerful in that mode), so if you have headphones that can take advantage of the extra power and technicalities of a balanced connection, that’s another tick. It also has a bigger and more powerful power supply, which makes a big difference to the overall sound and other aspects of operation. It has a relay based volume dial, which some prefer. It has multiple NOS and OS modes, so is far more flexible. I can go on but you get the point.

Sound quality-wise I never found the R2R-11 lacking at all. In fact I sold a bunch of more expensive gear once I heard it. As a dac it can keep up with dacs costing more than twice as much, so much so that the (excellent) amp is almost a free bonus. But it has its limitations, and if you want to go past those limitations, you have to pay for it.

Personally I’d have to pay at least twice as much as the R-28 to move up a few ticks in sound quality, which would be subtle at best. Twice the price of the R-28 is well beyond what I’d want to pay for an amp and dac, and so it makes sense that the R-28 is the end of the line for me - at least until something significantly better comes along for the same money.


----------



## alota

the question is simple: some people love separate, some people integrated. i had separate components in the past and was annoyed with space, cables, etc. today only integrated stuffs


----------



## Gambitek

gLer said:


> The R-28 is definitely different enough that you'd pass a double blind test between the two, especially with headphones that can take advantage of the better hardware in the R-28.
> 
> How much better though is subjective. Definitely not 3x better sound, but that’s just the law of dininishing returns. Past a certain point you’re paying twice the price for single digit ‘improvements’ and those improvements are often just a change in flavour rather than technical proficiency.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the feedback. Would balanced really make a difference, though? AudioGD says they have the same power delivery from both balanced and SE.


----------



## PopZeus

Gambitek said:


> Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?


There's almost a universal law of diminishing returns with audiophile gear. The biggest gap in quality is between $20-$350, not $350-$700. But I'd rather pay for more technical improvements, knowing the musicality was intact and only boosted by the better specs. As opposed to taking a risk on both the tonality/musicality as well as the technical performance (specs).


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Would balanced really make a difference, though? AudioGD says they have the same power delivery from both balanced and SE.


That was previously the case, but Kingwa took ‘S’ mode out before the R-28 shipped as it apparently compromised sound quality. So balanced is quite a bit more powerful than SE (and the website text that says otherwise is incorrect). Whether or not balanced improves the sound in other ways...that’s a bigger discussion. You’ll have to trust your ears on that one.


----------



## gLer

PopZeus said:


> There's almost a universal law of diminishing returns with audiophile gear. The biggest gap in quality is between $20-$350, not $350-$700. But I'd rather pay for more technical improvements, knowing the musicality was intact and only boosted by the better specs. As opposed to taking a risk on both the tonality/musicality as well as the technical performance (specs).


Agreed. It also depends on the transducers you’re using, be they speakers or headphones. If you’re only buying $200 headphones it’s probably prudent not to spend too big on an amp or dac because your headphones likely won’t know the difference (unless they’re made to scale, like the Sennheiser 6x0 series). But if you’re buying $1000, $2000 or $3000 headphones it’s a bit silly to skimp on an amp and dac and not take advantage of everything your expensive cans can do. Of course there’s a balance to be struck somewhere, and everyone will have a different view on it, but that’s my take anyway.


----------



## Gambitek

Yeah I'm running Blackwood Auteurs out of an R2R-11 and I'm wonder if the R-28 would noticeably improve my experience.


----------



## sumpao

Gambitek said:


> Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?



It will be an upgrade. I think most people who pay attention will pass an AB test


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> Yeah I'm running Blackwood Auteurs out of an R2R-11 and I'm wonder if the R-28 would noticeably improve my experience.


The Auteurs are extremely resolving and responsive to upstream gear, so I would say yes, especially balanced. Ask @xenithon for his impressions of the Auteur on the R-28 (he also had an R2R-11 but don’t think he tried it with the Auteur). Brilliant headphone by the way, if I ever decide to buy another headphone, that would be top of my list.


----------



## Gambitek (Jul 24, 2018)

nevermind


----------



## sumpao

It seem there is software update. Smooth and accurate.


----------



## jerick70

@gLer thanks for the impressions.

So to pull the trigger or not.....


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> It seem there is software update. Smooth and accurate.


I know smooth and accurate versions are available for the R2R-7. Not sure if the R-28 firmware will have smooth and accurate versions or just one unified update. In any case I think it might still be in beta testing.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> @gLer thanks for the impressions.
> 
> So to pull the trigger or not.....


Ask your wallet


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> nevermind


Saw your comment before you edited it. I’m not hearing any glare whatsoever, just clean, accurate sound in OS 8x mode. NOS mode will be closer to the ‘organic’ R2R-11 sound but also comes with a slight noise/softness penalty a-la R2R-11.


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> Ask your wallet


----------



## alota

from audio-gd site:
We release the two versions firmware for R-28 (Smooth and Accurate ), users can send email to ask the firmwares.
Order the R-28 before 15th Aug. from us, 
free the USB blaster for update the firmwares.


----------



## jerick70

alota said:


> from audio-gd site:
> We release the two versions firmware for R-28 (Smooth and Accurate ), users can send email to ask the firmwares.
> Order the R-28 before 15th Aug. from us,
> free the USB blaster for update the firmwares.


Damn, free stuff.... Now I'm going to have to buy it. LOL.


----------



## Gambitek

What is he saying? There's new firmware after Aug 15th? So if you order after then you get the new firmware without needing to flash it?


----------



## alota

Gambitek said:


> What is he saying? There's new firmware after Aug 15th? So if you order after then you get the new firmware without needing to flash it?


you choose the firmware in the order and if you change your mind,, you have the usb blaster for free(to change eventually the firmware)


----------



## alota

jerick70 said:


> Damn, free stuff.... Now I'm going to have to buy it. LOL.


me too but my wallet is empty. apart jokes, it´s my objective. i had audio-gd stuff in the past and compared with my other eletronics, every time i found an high Q/P relationship


----------



## Gambitek

So not only is there a jumper setting for NOS/OS modes, but a jumper settings for warm mode AND a firmware to choose from for smooth vs accurate? This is overwhelming. Smooth sounds like NOS to me and OS sounds like accurate, but one is software and one is hardware apparently...


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> So not only is there a jumper setting for NOS/OS modes, but a jumper settings for warm mode AND a firmware to choose from for smooth vs accurate? This is overwhelming. Smooth sounds like NOS to me and OS sounds like accurate, but one is software and one is hardware apparently...


Yes, it's all a bit confusing I must say. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try different combinations with your favourite headphones and music and see which you prefer. Personally I'll ask around a bit before deciding on which firmware option to pick. I mean, is smooth + NOS too much of a good thing, or accurate with OS too clinical? Time will tell, but at least we have options...

PS. If you head over to the R2R-7 thread there's a lively discussion going on about the two firmware choices. Maybe @FredA or @JaMo can enlighten us here as to the subtle differences between smooth and accurate, and which would work better with NOS/OS.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Yes, it's all a bit confusing I must say. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try different combinations with your favourite headphones and music and see which you prefer. Personally I'll ask around a bit before deciding on which firmware option to pick. I mean, is smooth + NOS too much of a good thing, or accurate with OS too clinical? Time will tell, but at least we have options...
> 
> PS. If you head over to the R2R-7 thread there's a lively discussion going on about the two firmware choices. Maybe @FredA or @JaMo can enlighten us here as to the subtle differences between smooth and accurate, and which would work better with NOS/OS.


The accurate fw versions, there are two, are brighter but bring more punch to the party with my speaker setup. One is less bright than the other, i prefer the brighter one. It is more coherent and expressive. I had to do some tweaking to get the balance right. For listening on headphones, my favorite is the smooth version. It is really excellent. This is the version i would advise you to try first if you value listening to heaphones more than speakers. Using the brightest fw, i managed to find an ic that made the sound very good  for headphone listening. I prioritize speakers. The smoother accurate fw is a good compromise.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> The accurate fw versions, there are two, are brighter but bring more punch to the party with my speaker setup. One is less bright than the other, i prefer the brighter one. It is more coherent and expressive. I had to do some tweaking to get the balance right. For listening on headphones, my favorite is the smooth version. It is really excellent. This is the version i would advise you to try first if you value listening to heaphones more than speakers. Using the brightest fw, i managed to find an ic that made the sound very good  for headphone listening. I prioritize speakers. The smoother accurate fw is a good compromise.


Smooth it is. I listen almost exclusively on headphones. Does it matter if you listen using NOS or OS, and would you recommend smooth regardless for headphones? I'm thinking accurate + OS 8x could be too clinical and 'oversharp', too much like Delta Sigma.


----------



## FredA (Jul 24, 2018)

gLer said:


> Smooth it is. I listen almost exclusively on headphones. Does it matter if you listen using NOS or OS, and would you recommend smooth regardless for headphones? I'm thinking accurate + OS 8x could be too clinical and 'oversharp', too much like Delta Sigma.


It will not sound like a delta sigma, just brighter, more laid back. With my headphone setup, i have to compensate using a cable that boosts the mids.  But the sound is still not as good as with the smooth fw. I haven't tried NOS with any of the new firmwares, but it should maKe the transcients less sharp,


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> It will not sound like a delta sigma, just brighter, more laid back. With my headphone setup, i have to compensate using a cable that boosts the mids.  But the sound is still not as good as with the smooth fw.


Definitely smooth then. I don't do bright!


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Definitely smooth then. I don't do bright!


It makes the sound dull i find. Too far away. You may like the smoother accurate fw though.


----------



## FredA

If you have a headphone set you find sound too rich in mids, the brighter accurate fw could be the fix.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> It makes the sound dull i find. Too far away. You may like the smoother accurate fw though.


But you said you prefer smooth for headphones? I'm not sure if there is a smooth accurate option for the R-28 - I'll ask Kingwa.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> If you have a headphone set you find sound too rich in mids, the brighter accurate fw could be the fix.


Do you listen to NOS or OS with headphones, and which mode?


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Do you listen to NOS or OS with headphones, and which mode?


All listening done with OS8 only,


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> But you said you prefer smooth for headphones? I'm not sure if there is a smooth accurate option for the R-28 - I'll ask Kingwa.


I don't know what Kingwa will officially release for the r-28, but we have currently 3 releases available with the r2r 7, the smooth one, and two accurate ones, one smoother/less bright than the other. The smoother accurate version has a more generous bass.


----------



## normanl

Kingwa just responded to my email regarding new firmware for R-28.
"The new firmware had released.
Two version just for customer can have fun.
The unit will shipping with newest firmware.
Kingwa"


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> The accurate fw versions, there are two, are brighter but bring more punch to the party with my speaker setup. One is less bright than the other, i prefer the brighter one. It is more coherent and expressive. I had to do some tweaking to get the balance right. For listening on headphones, my favorite is the smooth version. It is really excellent. This is the version i would advise you to try first if you value listening to heaphones more than speakers. Using the brightest fw, i managed to find an ic that made the sound very good  for headphone listening. I prioritize speakers. The smoother accurate fw is a good compromise.



Thanks for your comment


normanl said:


> Kingwa just responded to my email regarding new firmware for R-28.
> "The new firmware had released.
> Two version just for customer can have fun.
> The unit will shipping with newest firmware.
> Kingwa"



There so many possibility with this r-28. Good job Audio Gd


----------



## wietschebehr

gLer said:


> Well said and expertly articulated Wietsche. Valid points all. I would add the given how much some people spend on cables (digital, audio and power), the actual cost of the stack would likely be considerably higher than the purchase price itself. You did allude to that above,, but I think it's worth emphasising.



For sure, I assumed interconnect cables are standard equipment for most people. But yes, some people believe in some serious snake oil cables and if you have to buy new magic cables it is definitely something to consider as some cost more than the R28... Although, I think @Currawong stated in his NFB1 review that the ACCS connection between the two seperate units would make the connection much less sensitive to cable quality, so potentially you just need 2 extra cables of reasonable quality and price to connect the two units with no issues and an additional power cable for the second unit.



capetownwatches said:


> All very good points, but you missed two: a stack is better  'cos there's more stuff to play with, like cables and (usually) more buttons and switches, and secondly, an imposing stack is always sexier than a single box...



Those are 2 super good points!  Have you seen my imposing pyramid stack!? LOL!



alota said:


> the question is simple: some people love separate, some people integrated. i had separate components in the past and was annoyed with space, cables, etc. today only integrated stuffs



Yes I totally agree. The stack needs at least 3 more cables. I am a neat freak myself. Every time I setup a new system or say rearrange my home theatre, I spend days thinking and tinkering with cable management. But if done correctly it gives me immense pleasure that I almost want to show it off.. Thinking about some Google data centres now.. mmm...  but then again, as per the first comment above, custom cables start to get expensive. I recently started using cable trunking and cable wraps and that helps keeping the cost and efforts down a bit, especially if you in testing and analysing phase, swapping out many things to discover the results.


I think we should make a summary of all this general considerations and make a sticky of it  . 

Some points are obvious, but it helps to have a good comprehensive and growing checklist for someone to glance over before they buy stuff. Or does such lists or buyers guides exist here? Some elementary choices can result in very expensive regrets. And most audio enthusiast can't afford expensive mistakes - these things are never cheap. I guess it is all part of the journey.

Cheers,
W


----------



## gLer

wietschebehr said:


> Although, I think @Currawong stated in his NFB1 review that the ACCS connection between the two seperate units would make the connection much less sensitive to cable quality, so potentially you just need 2 extra cables of reasonable quality and price to connect the two units with no issues and an additional power cable for the second unit.


Oh you’ll be surprised...some guy was talking about buying custom ACSS cables for upward of $500 on another thread! And don’t get me started on power cables...some people go all out an isolate their amps from the grid in an effort to supply ‘clean’ power, then swear they can hear the difference. Not that I’m throwing cold water on good science, but the cost-for-benefit ratio must be off the charts!


----------



## Gambitek

> then swear they can hear the difference



Narrator: They can't.


----------



## sumpao

Gambitek said:


> Narrator: They can't.



Some people really can.
So if there no different why the business still on.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Oh you’ll be surprised...some guy was talking about buying custom ACSS cables for upward of $500 on another thread! And don’t get me started on power cables...some people go all out an isolate their amps from the grid in an effort to supply ‘clean’ power, then swear they can hear the difference. Not that I’m throwing cold water on good science, but the cost-for-benefit ratio must be off the charts!


 I agree that benefit ratio is not That high though.

But some people are perfectionist


----------



## wietschebehr

gLer said:


> Oh you’ll be surprised...some guy was talking about buying custom ACSS cables for upward of $500 on another thread! And don’t get me started on power cables...some people go all out an isolate their amps from the grid in an effort to supply ‘clean’ power, then swear they can hear the difference. Not that I’m throwing cold water on good science, but the cost-for-benefit ratio must be off the charts!



I like to measure sensible spending against other areas of life (non-audio related) that would give me much more pleasure spending the same money on. For me personally the value is very difficult to justify at the levels beyond the R28 for a single piece of audio equipment. Cables should be adequate for whatever you use them with, definitely not close to the same price of the main unit for sure. And this ties in with your previous comment about having a balance. All the pieces must be almost at the same level of performance and quality. The items in your signature is a perfect example of balance and synergy for me. Nothing is out of its place. Well done sir!

For instance at this moment I would rather use the time and money it would take to rewire my home to get micro audio quality upgrades (that everyone frowns upon anyway as you can't replace the power grid...), and rather go travel and see the world with my wife... Some people needs to get perspective of what they miss out on in life. That does not make you less of an audio enthusiast or expert, but it definitely earns more respect in my books. Music is about life and living anyway. Just my honest opinion. 

Cheers,
W


----------



## Gambitek (Jul 25, 2018)

> So if there no different why the business still on.



People spend money on healing crystals and aligning their chakras; it's all placebo. Just because a company stays in business doesn't mean the science behind their claims are true. In fact, I'm pretty sure I just read an article about an "audio power cable" company getting busted shadow manipulating the volume when doing their A/B tests for members of the public.


----------



## gLer

wietschebehr said:


> I like to measure sensible spending against other areas of life (non-audio related) that would give me much more pleasure spending the same money on. For me personally the value is very difficult to justify at the levels beyond the R28 for a single piece of audio equipment. Cables should be adequate for whatever you use them with, definitely not close to the same price of the main unit for sure. And this ties in with your previous comment about having a balance. All the pieces must be almost at the same level of performance and quality. The items in your signature is a perfect example of balance and synergy for me. Nothing is out of its place. Well done sir!
> 
> For instance at this moment I would rather use the time and money it would take to rewire my home to get micro audio quality upgrades (that everyone frowns upon anyway as you can't replace the power grid...), and rather go travel and see the world with my wife... Some people needs to get perspective of what they miss out on in life. That does not make you less of an audio enthusiast or expert, but it definitely earns more respect in my books. Music is about life and living anyway. Just my honest opinion.
> 
> ...


So true! For me the endgame was always about having a level of equipment I could trust to deliver superb audio quality with the music I listen to with minimal fuss and minimal mess, and just being able to lose myself in the music. 

Sure I love the gear and will continue reading about and listening to new equipment when I get the chance, but I’m glad the days of fretting over every little variable over and over again, then starting again when something new came along, are over. 

Long may this newfound peace last! Now I’ve just got to find new and exciting ways to fill up the time previously spent obsessing about audio gear


----------



## sumpao

Gambitek said:


> People spend money on healing crystals and aligning their chakras; it's all placebo. Just because a company stays in business doesn't mean the science behind their claims are true. In fact, I'm pretty sure I just read an article about an "audio power cable" company getting busted shadow manipulating the volume when doing their A/B tests for members of the public.



Even on Audio GD they still mention in some of there products need matching cable.
Diminishing returns might not be big but I think below tell something.  


The HE series products have better detail and dynamic reproduce ,blacker backstage ,better focus and larger sound stage , but the sound is better analog .
       The right saddle must is set on the right horse ,if you had not enough good system units, and had not enough cable match experiences, don't waste the money on HE series products.
      Please note the HE series products are upgrade from Master series, even though the price had a big rate increased but the sound quality had not same rate improved.


http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-9/HE-9EN.htm


----------



## sumpao

wietschebehr said:


> I like to measure sensible spending against other areas of life (non-audio related) that would give me much more pleasure spending the same money on. For me personally the value is very difficult to justify at the levels beyond the R28 for a single piece of audio equipment. Cables should be adequate for whatever you use them with, definitely not close to the same price of the main unit for sure. And this ties in with your previous comment about having a balance. All the pieces must be almost at the same level of performance and quality. The items in your signature is a perfect example of balance and synergy for me. Nothing is out of its place. Well done sir!
> 
> For instance at this moment I would rather use the time and money it would take to rewire my home to get micro audio quality upgrades (that everyone frowns upon anyway as you can't replace the power grid...), and rather go travel and see the world with my wife... Some people needs to get perspective of what they miss out on in life. That does not make you less of an audio enthusiast or expert, but it definitely earns more respect in my books. Music is about life and living anyway. Just my honest opinion.
> 
> ...



Rewire your home is the cheapest thing and the first thing to do in Audio investment.
I plan to rewire my audio listening room too due to my system use  electric from 1 plug to outlet and it go to many equipment.
Sometime when I open my TV or PS4 the song get disrupt.
I heard from many people that this bring a lot of improve to the system more than cable haha.
And it cheap.


----------



## Currawong

wietschebehr said:


> For sure, I assumed interconnect cables are standard equipment for most people. But yes, some people believe in some serious snake oil cables and if you have to buy new magic cables it is definitely something to consider as some cost more than the R28... Although, I think @Currawong stated in his NFB1 review that the ACCS connection between the two seperate units would make the connection much less sensitive to cable quality, so potentially you just need 2 extra cables of reasonable quality and price to connect the two units with no issues and an additional power cable for the second unit.



The main benefit is bypassing current-to-voltage and voltage-to-current stages in the DAC and amp respectively. If you really wanted to be hardcore about it, you'd solder some good, shielded wire from the DAC board to the amp board and bypass using connectors altogether. 



gLer said:


> Oh you’ll be surprised...some guy was talking about buying custom ACSS cables for upward of $500 on another thread! And don’t get me started on power cables...some people go all out an isolate their amps from the grid in an effort to supply ‘clean’ power, then swear they can hear the difference. Not that I’m throwing cold water on good science, but the cost-for-benefit ratio must be off the charts!



I've decided if I ever can afford to spend a lot of money on audio, I'd invest in an oscilloscope so I could test the effect of different tweaks. But anyway...

I got the alternate firmware versions from Kingwa, and from my quick listening impressions:

V3: Most balanced between "smooth" and "accurate"
Accurate: Most dynamic and clear (though the R28 is still smoother-sounding than other DACs I have) but the least sense of front-to-back depth
Smooth: Narrower soundstage but greater depth.
Smooth2: Much of the same, but possibly even deeper.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> I got the alternate firmware versions from Kingwa, and from my quick listening impressions:
> 
> V3: Most balanced between "smooth" and "accurate"
> Accurate: Most dynamic and clear (though the R28 is still smoother-sounding than other DACs I have) but the least sense of front-to-back depth
> ...


Look forward to trying them on my own system. Which do you prefer?


----------



## xenithon

Just an aside from all the talk of firmware and OS/NOS modes - I personally am not a fan of having all these options. One reason I generally prefer SS over tube is to get away from continuous and confusing tube rolling. Save for the cost aspect, this is the same and can easily lead to too much second guessing and experimenting rather than listening to music.


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> Just an aside from all the talk of firmware and OS/NOS modes - I personally am not a fan of having all these options. One reason I generally prefer SS over tube is to get away from continuous and confusing tube rolling. Save for the cost aspect, this is the same and can easily lead to too much second guessing and experimenting rather than listening to music.


I tend to agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, while I appreciate having the options, maybe a simple smooth/accurate tuning would have been enough. Should be easy enough to host both on the chip and switch between them like you can NOS and OS modes. And while we’re at it, let’s make it user-selectable from the front panel buttons 

That said it should be easy enough to experiment with the new firmware, and quickly pick one that works best with your headphones and music taste. The differences shouldn’t, ultimately, be ‘night and day’ (and if they are that’s another topic for discussion...).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I tend to agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, while I appreciate having the options, maybe a simple smooth/accurate tuning would have been enough. Should be easy enough to host both on the chip and switch between them like you can NOS and OS modes. And while we’re at it, let’s make it user-selectable from the front panel buttons
> 
> That said it should be easy enough to experiment with the new firmware, and quickly pick one that works best with your headphones and music taste. The differences shouldn’t, ultimately, be ‘night and day’ (and if they are that’s another topic for discussion...).



I can live with the option provide.
Stock one is already good.

Jumper between mode is not hard.
Spftware update is kind of scary due to if the net is cut we might get ban


----------



## normanl

Is there any review on R-28?


----------



## sumpao

It seem Audio GD have pull the software update out.
Did anybody try the new software?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> It seem Audio GD have pull the software update out.
> Did anybody try the new software?


Contact Kingwa directly. They often take off a page after an initial announcement.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Contact Kingwa directly. They often take off a page after an initial announcement.



Did you try the software update yet?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Did you try the software update yet?


No, I’m still waiting for the USB blaster Kingwa sent me. Could take a few more weeks to arrive. Not in a rush.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> No, I’m still waiting for the USB blaster Kingwa sent me. Could take a few more weeks to arrive. Not in a rush.



Noted. I not in rush too.
Will wait and see. It already sound great so I don't have problem now


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Noted. I not in rush too.
> Will wait and see. It already sound great so I don't have problem now


The only ‘issue’ I have so far is NOS mode 3, which seems to bump up the gain and clip the sound on at least one of my headphones, but only in high gain. The other NOS modes and OS modes are all fine. If you get a chance, maybe try switch your R-28 to NOS 3 and high gain and see if it distorts the sound of your headphones. Hopefully it’s just a firmware bug that will be fixed with the new firmware.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> The only ‘issue’ I have so far is NOS mode 3, which seems to bump up the gain and clip the sound on at least one of my headphones, but only in high gain. The other NOS modes and OS modes are all fine. If you get a chance, maybe try switch your R-28 to NOS 3 and high gain and see if it distorts the sound of your headphones. Hopefully it’s just a firmware bug that will be fixed with the new firmware.



Yes I will. mostly I use my headphone to play game which Nos mode might not suite it due to warmer sound.

Brighter sound is good for gaming though.


----------



## gLer

Hi guys,

Has anyone tried out the different NOS modes on the R-28 yet? (Or R2R-1 if you have it, as it’s the same) 

Which one would you say sounds closest to the R2R-11, if you’ve heard it? And how does mode 1 and 2 differ?

I’m having an issue with NOS 3 and high gain - louder sounds are clipped and distorted, and on volume 40, which is relatively low. Other NOS modes are fine in high gain. Hopefully the firmware update will fix that. 

Thx in advance for your feedback.


----------



## Greg121986

I just got my R-28 on Monday so it has the latest firmware (I confirmed by email). I am trying NOS mode 3 but I cannot go beyond 30 on high gain because it's way too loud on my Focal Clear. Are you sure you are not reaching distortion point from your headphones, and not the result of the amp distorting?


----------



## xenithon

I've run into a snag with the R-28 and wondering if any other owners of the R-28, other Audio-gd gear, or I suppose any other similar component could help shed some light. 

The unit was totally silent from the moment I started using it. But then last night when I switched it on, it emitted a hum. It is coming from the actual unit / chassis itself (does not come through headphones like a ground loop). I am concerned about damage or that something has gone wrong. From trying to research, the nearest thing I could come across is DC offset. The strange part is that it was 100% before and suddenly now started to hum. No change was made to the system, cables, plugs, etc.

Adding more detail:

When I switch it on and it flashes “R2R-28” it is silent, but as soon as the boot-up is done and it shows the input and volume (e.g., HH220) the hum can be heard
I tried a different cable and different plug point in the house but it did not help
I tried cycling through different inputs, modes, and gain settings but the hum persists
The loudness of the hum changes with volume changes in a strange way. It seems to change in “cycles” of 3 volume unit changes. For example 9 is a low hum, 10 a louder hum, 11 a very quiet hum. Then the cycle starts again - 12 a low hum, 13 a louder hum, 14 a very quiet hum. Etc.
Is there anything else I can check to troubleshoot? And if it is DC offset, could it possibly have just started now or might it point to a component failing of being damaged?


----------



## gLer (Aug 2, 2018)

Greg121986 said:


> I just got my R-28 on Monday so it has the latest firmware (I confirmed by email). I am trying NOS mode 3 but I cannot go beyond 30 on high gain because it's way too loud on my Focal Clear. Are you sure you are not reaching distortion point from your headphones, and not the result of the amp distorting?


Quite sure. Try switch to any other NOS mode (and also OS mode) and play the same track/s at 30 on high gain with the Clear. Let me know if it's the same, or if only NOS 3 clips...

I normally listen on Vol 30-40 HG with the Elear without any issues. On very high DR albums I even turn it a bit louder sometimes. Remember 30 or 40 on the volume dial is about 2-3% power. You're only at 10% at 70, and then it ramps up quickly from there.


----------



## Greg121986

I've experienced no clipping at all but I use mostly low gain. High gain is just way too loud. Most of my listening is low gain mode at 30-35. I've tried OS 8x, NOS mode 1, 2, and 3. I just tried NOS mode 3 with high gain, but again I could not bare to go above 30 on the volume. No clipping, just way too loud.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> I've experienced no clipping at all but I use mostly low gain. High gain is just way too loud. Most of my listening is low gain mode at 30-35. I've tried OS 8x, NOS mode 1, 2, and 3. I just tried NOS mode 3 with high gain, but again I could not bare to go above 30 on the volume. No clipping, just way too loud.


I do tend to listen at what I consider moderate volume, which to others might be a little loud. But definitely not unbearable at 30 HG. Heck on the LCD-3 I often go to 50 quite comfortably. Again, this is very low power compared to what the amp is actually capable of. Also I think the Clear is much more sensitive than the Elear, in order to play nice with portable sources. The Elear is more sensitive than the LCD, but still needs a decent amp to sound 'right'. 

All that aside, if you have Tidal or Apple Music, please try the track 'Albatross' by Alela Diane, put it in NOS 3 and volume 40 on HG, and tell me if there's any audible clipping when she starts her vocals (which can be quite loud). Even move the cups a bit away from your ears, more a test for clipping that actual SQ. If it clips, try the same on OS 8x. On my unit, OS 8x is smooth (moderate to loud but smooth), and on NOS 3, starts off ok but clips like crazy when the vocals start. And not only on the Elear, also the LCD, so it's not an Elear issue.


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> I've run into a snag with the R-28 and wondering if any other owners of the R-28, other Audio-gd gear, or I suppose any other similar component could help shed some light.
> 
> The unit was totally silent from the moment I started using it. But then last night when I switched it on, it emitted a hum. It is coming from the actual unit / chassis itself (does not come through headphones like a ground loop). I am concerned about damage or that something has gone wrong. From trying to research, the nearest thing I could come across is DC offset. The strange part is that it was 100% before and suddenly now started to hum. No change was made to the system, cables, plugs, etc.
> 
> ...


Look forward to answers on this as well. Been sitting vigil with @xenithon on this for the past day. Hope it's just a DC offset and not a part failure, even though it's under warranty in the free shipping period, of course.


----------



## xenithon

Managed to capture on video. While the top was off I tried various jumper settings (LED dim, NOS, PLL) to no avail. Also can clearly hear the hum coming from the transformer.


----------



## Greg121986

gLer said:


> track 'Albatross' by Alela Diane, put it in NOS 3 and volume 40 on HG, and tell me if there's any audible clipping when she starts her vocals (which can be quite loud).



No problem for me. It was not as loud as I expected it to be, but no distortion that I could hear. I think my FLAC sources from local disk storage were a bit louder than Tidal for some reason. I am trying JRiver for the first time instead of Foobar, so that might have something to do with it.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> No problem for me. It was not as loud as I expected it to be, but no distortion that I could hear. I think my FLAC sources from local disk storage were a bit louder than Tidal for some reason. I am trying JRiver for the first time instead of Foobar, so that might have something to do with it.


That is interesting indeed. I'll keep trying. Will also try Tidal direct vs Audirvana+ flac on the Mac. How do you find the NOS modes differ from each other, if at all? What made you settle on NOS 3?


----------



## Greg121986 (Aug 2, 2018)

I have not settled on NOS 3. I actually only just switched to it today based on your posts and potential for it to have audible problems. Thus far, I do think it is my favorite, though.

Stock setting (no jumpers) for 8x over sampling is extremely boring to me. There is sufficient detail, but there is no weight to the bass, barely any depth of sound stage, and only mild sound stage width.

NOS (jumper in S1 only) is better because it seems to have better separation and a tiny bit of added sound stage depth. However, still really boring.

NOS mode 2 or mode 3 are a step in the right direction for me. Vocals are a little bit forward, sound stage goes wider and deeper and there is better separation.

So far I wish I had kept my Auralic Taurus MKII and just got an R2R-1 DAC. There is still time for me to enjoy the R-28 more, though. It has stayed on since I got it on Monday with the exception of powering off to change jumpers. It has only been about 72 hours. I'm going to leave it on indefinitely and I expect to hit the 500 hour mark after 20 days. I hope there is some change, but so far it's not as great as I was expecting.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> NOS (jumper in S1 only) is better because it seems to have better separation and a tiny bit of added sound stage depth. However, still really boring.


Ok, I figured out what’s happening with NOS 3 and clipping, at least on my system. I’ll write a full reply just about that shortly. But just wanted to query your comment above. According to the ‘use manual’, S1 ‘on’ is NOS 3 (note S4 and S5 ‘off’ is NOS 3, as is S4 ‘on’. So not sure how you can find S1 only ‘boring’ but NOS 3 better when S1 only *is* NOS 3?


----------



## Gambitek

I'm so impressed with my R2R-11 I'm dying waiting for my R-28. I really wonder if it can make my Auteurs sound even better.


----------



## Greg121986

gLer said:


> Ok, I figured out what’s happening with NOS 3 and clipping, at least on my system. I’ll write a full reply just about that shortly. But just wanted to query your comment above. According to the ‘use manual’, S1 ‘on’ is NOS 3 (note S4 and S5 ‘off’ is NOS 3, as is S4 ‘on’. So not sure how you can find S1 only ‘boring’ but NOS 3 better when S1 only *is* NOS 3?



To be fair, the "chart" showing the different modes is one of the most confusing things I've seen in a long time, and I used to work for a company that imported Chinese goods so I'm usually pretty good at deciphering what Chinese-English is supposed to mean. 

I was considering S1-ON jumper only to be NOS mode. Based on the fact that there are two "Mode 3" listed below, you may actually call this *Mode 4. *This is a mode I found uninspiring _S1_-ON _S4_-OFF _S5_-OFF after a full day of listening. Mode 1 was actually pretty OK. _S1, S4, S5_ all ON.

What I am enjoying right now is *S1-ON S4-ON S5-OFF*. Since this is 3rd in the list below, I am considering this Mode 3.


----------



## ballhead

Greg121986 said:


> To be fair, the "chart" showing the different modes is one of the most confusing things I've seen in a long time, and I used to work for a company that imported Chinese goods so I'm usually pretty good at deciphering what Chinese-English is supposed to mean.
> 
> I was considering S1-ON jumper only to be NOS mode. Based on the fact that there are two "Mode 3" listed below, you may actually call this *Mode 4. *This is a mode I found uninspiring _S1_-ON _S4_-OFF _S5_-OFF after a full day of listening. Mode 1 was actually pretty OK. _S1, S4, S5_ all ON.
> 
> What I am enjoying right now is *S1-ON S4-ON S5-OFF*. Since this is 3rd in the list below, I am considering this Mode 3.


no, it's not nos mode3. s1 means nos ready, when s3 is off - still inactive, active when s3 is on. you skipped that.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> To be fair, the "chart" showing the different modes is one of the most confusing things I've seen in a long time, and I used to work for a company that imported Chinese goods so I'm usually pretty good at deciphering what Chinese-English is supposed to mean.
> 
> I was considering S1-ON jumper only to be NOS mode. Based on the fact that there are two "Mode 3" listed below, you may actually call this *Mode 4. *This is a mode I found uninspiring _S1_-ON _S4_-OFF _S5_-OFF after a full day of listening. Mode 1 was actually pretty OK. _S1, S4, S5_ all ON.
> 
> What I am enjoying right now is *S1-ON S4-ON S5-OFF*. Since this is 3rd in the list below, I am considering this Mode 3.


Hmm, you're right of course, even though I personally hear no difference between S1 only and S1/S4. That said I'll go with your call, as you've been listening to this mode longer than me. Both clip like crazy (more on this later) - but not now that I've 'fixed' it. Like you say NOS 1 (S1, S4, S5) is the closest to NOS 3, but without the 'clipping' issue on my unit. It's not quite all-out rich and natural like NOS 3 though. @Gambitek when you get your R-28, switch it to NOS 3 as this is, by memory, the closest to the lush R2R-11 sound, only better! your Auteurs will love it.


----------



## gLer

ballhead said:


> no, it's not nos mode3. s1 means nos ready, when s3 is off - still inactive, active when s3 is on. you skipped that.


Nah he's correct. He just didn't show the entire image. See below - S3 activates PLL. Has nothing to do with NOS/OS.


----------



## Greg121986 (Aug 2, 2018)

Right, what he said! My understanding of this chart is that S3 has nothing to do with NOS or OS mode. S3 only enables or disables PLL setting. I could still be wrong because I do not know what PLL setting is. :/

According to the full chart, S3 is the same PLL function whether you are in OS or NOS mode, so to me that means S3 is independant of NOS or OS mode.

Edit for new comments below, my discussion was only based on the jumpers for NOS and OS setting, so the rest of the chart was not relevant. Unless PLL impacts NOS and OS setting? I've only used the R-28 with this inactive such that S3 is OFF. I don't know what impact it has. I stand by my assertion that I presented all relevant data to my discussion points, so the information omitted was irrelevant.


----------



## ballhead (Aug 2, 2018)

gLer said:


> Nah he's correct. He just didn't show the entire image. See below - S3 activates PLL. Has nothing to do with NOS/OS.


 of course he is now. but you can not skip parts of the picture as he did. and I totaly forgot how I did it myself, it was couple weeks ago. now I remember - s3 is of in my setup, I think no need of pll, I have singxer with femtoclocks instead of amanero. anyway, sorry, was misleaded by that partial picture.


----------



## gLer

ballhead said:


> of course he is now. but you can not skip parts of the picture as he did


I doubt he did that intentionally. We were only talking about NOS after all. @Greg121986, according to Kingwa, and I quote:

"PLL just for change the sound flavor, depend on your like. If the source is not good, PLL active may can improve on sound, but if the source is good enough, PLL active bring worst sound."

So, yeah, I keep it off. I think that's the right thing to do. Until it's not


----------



## gLer

xenithon said:


> Managed to capture on video. While the top was off I tried various jumper settings (LED dim, NOS, PLL) to no avail. Also can clearly hear the hum coming from the transformer.



This is concerning, although I still suspect it has something to do with your home's grid. Hopefully someone else can chime in with some experience here.


----------



## Gambitek

gLer said:


> when you get your R-28, switch it to NOS 3 as this is, by memory, the closest to the lush R2R-11 sound, only better! your Auteurs will love it.



Yeah, the Audio GD chart is confusing as hell and I have no idea how to do that! 

Correct me if I'm wrong: S1 with jumper, S4 with jumper, S5 without, S3 doesn't matter?


----------



## gLer

Right folks, here's the skinny on my R-28 and NOS 3 'woes'. Given @Greg121986 feedback above, I got to thinking that he's using different software (PC, while I'm using Audirvana+ on a Mac). Perhaps there's something in *my* settings causing the clipping in NOS 3 mode? So I proceeded to switch AV+ off and play my test track for clipping, Alela Diane's 'Albatross', direct from the Tidal app. Lo and behold, it played perfectly - and with all the smoothness I was hoping to hear from NOS 3. So I dived into the app settings, specifically sound output, and noticed that two settings that are enabled on AV+ were disabled here: exclusive mode and max volume. The first obviously gives the app full control over the Mac's sound system (hog mode), the second essentially sets the app/Mac to full volume, letting you control the volume with the dac only. 

So I turned down the volume of the dac (to about 20 on high gain mode), switched on both settings in Tidal, and BANG, clipping! 

That done, I switched off Tidal, went back into AV+, switched off exclusive mode, and set volume control to 'software' (as opposed to dac only). Now my Mac was essentially a 'preamp', allowing me to set the initial volume and then tweak it further on the dac (instead of sending a full-blast signal to the dac). Set the volume in AV+ down to -7dB (as opposed to 100% or 0dB) and what do you know, cued the track, hit play, and...no clipping! I was even able to turn up the volume on the dac well past comfortable level (which for most people would be blood inducing), and still no clipping.

So my theory is this: NOS 3, at least on *my* R-28, is doing something to the gain, and not necessarily in a. good way. It's increasing gain to the point where sending a 100% volume signal from the Mac to the R-28 causes the sound to clip and distort - even at low volumes, in both low gain and high gain (I tested both). To further prove this theory, I left the system in NOS 3, with AV+ in -7dB mode, volume on the R-28 at a loud 50, set the R-28 to OS 8x (don't worry, I switched it off before changing jumpers), and voila, playback was at a significantly lower volume now. Tried the same with OS 2x, OS 4x, NOS 1 and NOS 2 - no change in volume. Switched back to NOS 3 - BAM! Volume up, quite drastically.

*TL;DR - my R-28 increases the gain significantly in NOS 3 mode (without physically changing gain on the dial), to the point where a full signal from a Mac** using Audirvana+ results in unplayable clipping and distortion.* 

**I have only tried this on my Mac. If any of you try this on a PC, using JRiver or Foobar set to output 100% volume, and experience zero gain changes when switching to NOS 3, then it can be one of two things: my R-28 has a fault or software bug, or the R-28 behaves differently on a Mac vs PC. Anecdotally, @xenithon tried NOS 3 on his R-28, also using a Mac and AV+, and indeed his changed the gain upward quite significantly, although he was testing with a hard-to-drive HD800 which didn't clip at the tested volume.  

PS. Despite all the above most likely pointing to a fault (or design flaw), the silver lining is that having found a 'workaround' to using NOS 3, I now can't get enough of it! The sound is so raw and 'organic', higher octave vocals and instruments have lost that slight 'ringing' I couldn't quite shake in OS 8x mode, and everything just seems more 'cohesive' now. This is about as close to the R2R-11 NOS sound I fell in love with, only better. Listening to Meiko's binaural acoustic version of 'Crush' as I write this, on my so-called 'narrow' Elear, and it's nothing short of mesmerising. Here's hoping the FW update (I'm still on the original firmware btw) restores NOS 3 gain parity with the other modes so I can use AV+ as intended. But even if it doesn't, I don't think I can switch back to OS 8x now.


----------



## gLer

Gambitek said:


> Yeah, the Audio GD chart is confusing as hell and I have no idea how to do that!
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong: S1 with jumper, S4 with jumper, S5 without, S3 doesn't matter?


Correct (that's NOS 3 mode). But so is S1 on S4 off S5 off (if I read it correctly). I'll confirm with Kingwa.


----------



## Greg121986

I confirmed with Kingwa before my shipment that my R-28 has the NEW firmware. I have found NOS mode 3 to be the most enjoyable. 

As I said, I am using JRiver for the first time and its output does not sound very good and seems to be at a higher gain than when I play from Tidal. I am not familiar with it so I may have some settings wrong. I would say that JRiver sounds worse than TIdal for some reason.... I need to experiment more tomorrow.


----------



## gLer

Greg121986 said:


> I confirmed with Kingwa before my shipment that my R-28 has the NEW firmware. I have found NOS mode 3 to be the most enjoyable.
> 
> As I said, I am using JRiver for the first time and its output does not sound very good and seems to be at a higher gain than when I play from Tidal. I am not familiar with it so I may have some settings wrong. I would say that JRiver sounds worse than TIdal for some reason.... I need to experiment more tomorrow.


If you’re using Windows 10, you should give the new Audirvana+ for Windows a try. Looks very slick. If it’s anything like the Mac version, it will be superb.

Also did Kingwa say if he installed the ‘smooth’ or ‘accurate’ version of the new firmware. Apparently there are TWO versions, just to keep things suitably confusing.


----------



## Greg121986

My work PC is only Windows 7. I'm due for an upgrade next year so I will look into Audirvana+ whenever I get a new PC. I've been a Foobar user for years, but I have finally decided I'm willing to pay for something with a bit more flair. So far I'm very underwhelmed with JRiver. I hope Audirvana can deliver something useful.

I was told by default the firmware is the smooth version and that is what mine shipped with. I thought the new firmware was an improved version of the default. I honestly have no idea now and I am very confused. I think I'd much prefer an "accurate" version.


----------



## Viper2005

I’ve ordered an R28 for use at my lake cabin.  Hopefully it should arrive next week!  
It will come with the new smooth version of the firmware.
For those who have the R28 already, what do you perceive are the differences between the four NOS modes?


----------



## gLer

With regards NOS 3 jumper settings, Kingwa confirmed by email that the following combinations are indeed NOS 3 (identical setting):

S1 ‘on’, S4 ‘off’, S5 ‘off’

AND 

S1 ‘on’, S4 ‘on’, S5 ‘off'

So @Greg121986 your ears deceive you (or more likely you’re experincing the R-28 at different stages of burn-in). Mine is well part the 500-hour mark now.


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> Managed to capture on video. While the top was off I tried various jumper settings (LED dim, NOS, PLL) to no avail. Also can clearly hear the hum coming from the transformer.




Hope you find a solution soon


----------



## humblesquad

Hi, I'm interested in R-28 for these months. My concern is that I didn't like R2R-11 I had. I felt it was muddy and lacked details overall.
I'm sure R-28 is better at both AMP section and DAC section than R2R-11, however, do you guys think Sabre product like NFB-28 is a safe choice for me?


----------



## xenithon

sumpao said:


> Hope you find a solution soon



Thank you. I have tried the amp at various houses to eliminate things like DC offset or voltage dips / sags / spikes. 

Unfortunately despite the clearly problematic transformer, Audio-gd are unwilling to assist with shipping a new transformer or other easier repair route - so will have to ship the entire unit back (costs about $300 to ship from me to China). I had hoped they would come to the party to try find a better solution but that is not the case.


----------



## sumpao

xenithon said:


> Thank you. I have tried the amp at various houses to eliminate things like DC offset or voltage dips / sags / spikes.
> 
> Unfortunately despite the clearly problematic transformer, Audio-gd are unwilling to assist with shipping a new transformer or other easier repair route - so will have to ship the entire unit back (costs about $300 to ship from me to China). I had hoped they would come to the party to try find a better solution but that is not the case.



It very sorry to hear that why cost so high.


----------



## FredA

xenithon said:


> Thank you. I have tried the amp at various houses to eliminate things like DC offset or voltage dips / sags / spikes.
> 
> Unfortunately despite the clearly problematic transformer, Audio-gd are unwilling to assist with shipping a new transformer or other easier repair route - so will have to ship the entire unit back (costs about $300 to ship from me to China). I had hoped they would come to the party to try find a better solution but that is not the case.


They will refund at least a part of the shipping. Maybe more given how early the problem showed up. Airmail to China is so expensive, last time i shipped something there, i used the slowest way, and the cost was still about 45CAD for a 2 pound 10"x3"x6" box.


----------



## xenithon

Shipping is very expensive to anywhere from where I am; China in particular. The problem is also due to the volumetric weight as the box is really big.


----------



## Rayzilla

Will Audio GD be at the Audio Show in Hong Kong this weekend?


----------



## Gambitek

Quick Impressions after a few hours:

-8XOS default mode is amazing. Crystal clear detail with none of the digital glare of DS.

-NOS settings sounds 85-90% like the R2R-11. Has a bit more clarity up top, but it's not worth 4x the price. If you've got an R2R-11 and are in love with its super smooth musical sound, save your cash. It's a god damn bargain of the ages.

-If the R2R-11 was too smooth and "muddy" for you but you don't like the DS glare, the default settings of the R28 are amazing. It's crazy clear yet still organic.

- I can't believe how much diminishing returns audio dac/amps are. The R2R-11 does 80% of the job of this (also in NOS mode) for 1/4 the price. My wallet hurts, but I don't regret my purchase. These take my Auteurs to the next level.

- Seriously, if you buy this just to put it in NOS mode....just stick to the R2R-11 and save yourself the money. 8XOS is insanely clear, smooth, and organic. The NOS mode can't compete and if I listen to my R28 in NOS mode I feel like I wasted my money when my R2R-11 basically does it all almost as well

-8XOS makes me not want to sell/return this.

-**** THIS THING IS HUGE What IT DIDNT LOOK THAT BIG IN THE PICTURES AHHHH (I almost considered selling it because of this)


----------



## Greg121986 (Aug 7, 2018)

Almost 200 hours on my R-28 now and I'm certain burn in is having a _drastic effect_. I have never heard such a distinct alteration in sound due to burn in before. It's much improved due to burn in. I have not shut it off for about 6 days now. I am still running NOS mode 3, but I will try OS mode again since burn in seems to be taking its course.


----------



## Viper2005 (Aug 9, 2018)

My R28 came in today!
Out of the box it sounds very nice already with my Auteurs!  Very smooth highs with good impact.  Absolutely does not disappoint.  Using the V2 Smooth firmware on OS8X, it's a good contrast to my Jotunheim.
Its bigger than it looks and I found I didn't have the table space for it.. it will languish on my mobile drawer unit till I can clean off more desktop space.
It even came with a free usb blaster for future firmware updating.  Will burn in and see what changes occur.


----------



## alota

Viper2005 said:


> My R28 came in today!
> Out of the box it sounds very nice already with my Auteurs!  Very smooth highs with good impact.  Absolutely does not disappoint.  Using the V2 Smooth firmware on OS8X, it's a good contrast to my Jotunheim.
> Its bigger than it looks and I found I didn't have the table space for it.. it will languish on my mobile drawer unit till I can clean off more desktop space.
> It even came with a free usb blaster for future firmware updating.  Will burn in and see what changes occur.


was interesting a comparison with your schiit giants(rag and yggi)


----------



## Currawong

The big DACs like the Yggy A2 and Hugo 2 are more spacious and detailed, and the R28 somewhat warmer and flatter-sounding with less detail in comparison.


----------



## FredA

Currawong said:


> The big DACs like the Yggy A2 and Hugo 2 are more spacious and detailed, and the R28 somewhat warmer and flatter-sounding with less detail in comparison.


Even with the new firmware?


----------



## Currawong

FredA said:


> Even with the new firmware?



Even using Audirvana Plus or Roon up-sampling. The firmware choices range between wider, but shallower soundstage, or deeper but narrower.


----------



## Suppa92

Currawong said:


> The big DACs like the Yggy A2 and Hugo 2 are more spacious and detailed, and the R28 somewhat warmer and flatter-sounding with less detail in comparison.


Do you think r-28's dac section (=Audio-Gd R2R 1) is good enough or overkill for it's amp ( =Audio-Gd NFB1-AMP)section?

Do you think Chord's Qutest DAC is better sounding than R-28's dac (=Audio-Gd R2R 1) & is Chord Qutest is an overkill for an amp like Audio-Gd NFB1-AMP?


----------



## FredA

Currawong said:


> Even using Audirvana Plus or Roon up-sampling. The firmware choices range between wider, but shallower soundstage, or deeper but narrower.



For 3x the money (compared to the r2r 1), it's to be expected. Would be a different story against the r2r 7 with the new firmwares . I feel the r2r 7 has gone in the right direction. It is an improved dac. Imaging has width and depth using the accurate fw, and lots of details. The sound is now laid back, which i prefer with speakers.


----------



## Gambitek

Plugged my HD599 into my R28 and it makes it sound like a $300+ headphone. Very impressive. Leagues above my Fulla 2, even with just an HD599. Dem mids and bass...mmm.


----------



## Viper2005

Gambitek said:


> Plugged my HD599 into my R28 and it makes it sound like a $300+ headphone. Very impressive. Leagues above my Fulla 2, even with just an HD599. Dem mids and bass...mmm.



Interesting!  I plugged in my Senn HD58X Jubilee and it's got great synergy as well!  They've been sitting around as I thought it was just ok with my Schiit stuff, but they sound really good with the R28!


----------



## Currawong

Suppa92 said:


> Do you think r-28's dac section (=Audio-Gd R2R 1) is good enough or overkill for it's amp ( =Audio-Gd NFB1-AMP)section?



I felt I could get a bit better clarity using the R28 as a DAC for the Master 9 the last time I tried. 



Suppa92 said:


> Do you think Chord's Qutest DAC is better sounding than R-28's dac (=Audio-Gd R2R 1) & is Chord Qutest is an overkill for an amp like Audio-Gd NFB1-AMP?



I have the Hugo 2 here, which the Qutest is essentially the same as (apart from the USB input and headphone output). If you're thinking _"Should I get a Qutest and NFB-1AMP?"_ then my answer is: Buy a Hugo 2 and a Schiit Wyrd.


----------



## ScubadudeSA

xenithon said:


> Unfortunately despite the clearly problematic transformer, Audio-gd are unwilling to assist with shipping a new transformer or other easier repair route - so will have to ship the entire unit back



I believe those are the terms of the very generous 10year warranty. Those terms are also one of the reasons GD products are priced as competitively as they are ... Bidirectional shipping is not priced in. If I were the OEM I would ensure any repair work is done under controlled conditions if I am to stand by the product for the remainder of the warrantee period. Bitter as it may feel think of the shipping charges as an insurance co-payment, get it done and get back to enjoying the music.


----------



## xenithon

Agree to an extent. There are some complexities such as the local agent with authorized tech centre offering to help but AGD refusing to allow them to. But alas, what’s done is done and the box is on its way to China. 

The unfortunate thing would be if they state nothing is wrong and exercise their right to refund policy which would leave me about $500 out of pocket and with no system.


----------



## uberworker

Currawong said:


> I feel the sound quality of the R28 jumps up with a better amp (I tested with the Master 9) so if you wanted an R1 but also an amp to use in the mean time until you got another, that'd work.
> 
> I should really compare the R28 with the Mojo. There were a few comments that the Gumby was at about the same level as it, DAC-wise, though that was a while ago and there have been changes since, mainly with the USB.


@Currawong do you mean to say that the R28 performs the same as the Mojo at half the price?


----------



## Currawong

I don’t mean to say anything I haven’t said.


----------



## Heavyboxer

Subscribed.

Replacing my R2R-11 for these AIO... balanced out is perfect for my upcoming dynaudio lyd 7 monitors.


----------



## ballhead (Aug 19, 2018)

-


----------



## ToddRaymond

Heavyboxer said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> Replacing my R2R-11 for these AIO... balanced out is perfect for my upcoming dynaudio lyd 7 monitors.



Nice!  I would love to hear well the R-28 sounds with those Dynaudios.

Can anyone comment on how well the R-28 functions as a preamp compared to the Master 9?  Also, apart from having less power, how close in sound quality is the single ended out compared to the balanced out (for headphones)?


----------



## FredA

Turdski said:


> Nice!  I would love to hear well the R-28 sounds with those Dynaudios.
> 
> Can anyone comment on how well the R-28 functions as a preamp compared to the Master 9?  Also, apart from having less power, how close in sound quality is the single ended out compared to the balanced out (for headphones)?


I have both a 2014 master-1 and a 2016 nfb-1amp. As pre, the master-1 images a little better. 

The difference driving headphones would be greater i assume, but as pre, the master-9 and nfb-1amp should be very close.

I tried my headphones both balanced and single-ended through the nfb-1amp. Very subtle difference again. The quality of cable you use has more importance imo.


----------



## gLer

Turdski said:


> Also, apart from having less power, how close in sound quality is the single ended out compared to the balanced out (for headphones)?


I find the AGD balanced amps (R-28, NFB-1) to be designed for balanced, so the quality and power for headphones are better when balanced. Kingwa said as much when asked that very question. Nothing wrong with the SE quality, but for example I found the SE output of the R2R-11 to be similar if not slightly more punchy than the SE output of the R-28, whereas with balanced it’s no contest in favour of the R-28.


----------



## wietschebehr

gLer said:


> I find the AGD balanced amps (R-28, NFB-1) to be designed for balanced, so the quality and power for headphones are better when balanced. Kingwa said as much when asked that very question. Nothing wrong with the SE quality, but for example I found the SE output of the R2R-11 to be similar if not slightly more punchy than the SE output of the R-28, whereas with balanced it’s no contest in favour of the R-28.



+1. NFB1 user, same experience.


----------



## Heavyboxer

wietschebehr said:


> +1. NFB1 user, same experience.



But isn't the SE output of the R28 equivalent to xlr? Would they actually be hard wired?

I'm hoping to not change headphone cables once my unit arrives.


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> But isn't the SE output of the R28 equivalent to xlr? Would they actually be hard wired?
> 
> I'm hoping to not change headphone cables once my unit arrives.


No it's not. It was going to be, but that changed just before shipping as the quality of the XLR-equivalent SE output was apparently poor. If you're getting the R-28, my suggestion is to make sure all your cans are balanced, although the SE quality is still excellent compared to entry-level amps.


----------



## Heavyboxer

gLer said:


> No it's not. It was going to be, but that changed just before shipping as the quality of the XLR-equivalent SE output was apparently poor. If you're getting the R-28, my suggestion is to make sure all your cans are balanced, although the SE quality is still excellent compared to entry-level amps.



Darn it, more money again... 

I'm upgrading from an R2R-11, and I'm keeping my lil dot mkii for tubey days (6xx). Oh well, hello balanced lcd2's


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> Darn it, more money again...
> 
> I'm upgrading from an R2R-11, and I'm keeping my lil dot mkii for tubey days (6xx). Oh well, hello balanced lcd2's


Your LCDs will thank you, trust me.


----------



## Ake_Y

After receiving and burning in my R28 for a month, I just recognized some glitch sound like when you listen to a vinyl record. Is that normal?


----------



## FredA (Aug 21, 2018)

Ake_Y said:


> After receiving and burning in my R28 for a month, I just recognized some glitch sound like when you listen to a vinyl record. Is that normal?


With some old records, yes. Use records you know well to test, Avoid highly compressed mp3 files. Have you installed the amanero driver (assuming you are on pc)?

One other point is wripping a cd is not error free unless you use a properly configured sw. I have some file i know have wripipimg erros on them. Worst,  wripping a cd that is a copy of a copy usually leads to desastrous results. Quality files are mandatory with a quality dac because it will reveals every defect.

Be sure to max the player application's volume, otherwise you degrade the signal.


----------



## jerick70

Ake_Y said:


> After receiving and burning in my R28 for a month, I just recognized some glitch sound like when you listen to a vinyl record. Is that normal?


I hear that on some albums. Norah Jones does this with a lot of her songs.

Maybe the R-28 is more resolving than your previous audio chain?


----------



## Ake_Y (Aug 22, 2018)

FredA / jerick70,

Thank you for your suggestions. I just tried again. The problem seems to be disappeared. I suspect that it might be related to my PC ( Windows 10 ) . Normally, I turn on R28 prior to my PC, but last night I did the opposite way. I will continue test and let you know if it happens again.


----------



## Suppa92

Currawong said:


> I have the Hugo 2 here, which the Qutest is essentially the same as (apart from the USB input and headphone output). If you're thinking _"Should I get a Qutest and NFB-1AMP?"_ then my answer is: Buy a Hugo 2 and a Schiit Wyrd.


But Hugo 2 doesn't have much power to drive high-impedance headphones, right? I'm planning to use with planer magnetic headphones like audeze. That's why I thought to buy a good dac and powerful amp as separate units. Have heard Chord's dacs are excellent and nfb-1 has plenty of power. that's why i thought Qutest+nfb1 is good combo. is there any other good amp with enough power (more than hugo2's builtin amp) to pair with Qutest withouth missing details under $800, $900?


----------



## FredA

Suppa92 said:


> But Hugo 2 doesn't have much power to drive high-impedance headphones, right? I'm planning to use with planer magnetic headphones like audeze. That's why I thought to buy a good dac and powerful amp as separate units. Have heard Chord's dacs are excellent and nfb-1 has plenty of power. that's why i thought Qutest+nfb1 is good combo. is there any other good amp with enough power (more than hugo2's builtin amp) to pair with Qutest withouth missing details under $800, $900?



The nfb-1amp does great with  my he-560. If you can find a used master-9, it should be even better. The nfb-1amp has a very smooth treble


----------



## Currawong

Suppa92 said:


> But Hugo 2 doesn't have much power to drive high-impedance headphones, right? I'm planning to use with planer magnetic headphones like audeze. That's why I thought to buy a good dac and powerful amp as separate units. Have heard Chord's dacs are excellent and nfb-1 has plenty of power. that's why i thought Qutest+nfb1 is good combo. is there any other good amp with enough power (more than hugo2's builtin amp) to pair with Qutest withouth missing details under $800, $900?



High-impedance headphones are _easier_ to drive. They require far less current. Due to battery improvements, something like a Hugo 2 can provide plenty of current for planars too. The Audio-gd equivalent would be an R2R 7 and Master 9.


----------



## ToddRaymond

FredA said:


> I have both a 2014 master-1 and a 2016 nfb-1amp. As pre, the master-1 images a little better.
> 
> The difference driving headphones would be greater i assume, but as pre, the master-9 and nfb-1amp should be very close.
> 
> I tried my headphones both balanced and single-ended through the nfb-1amp. Very subtle difference again. The quality of cable you use has more importance imo.



Thanks a lot for chiming in!  That's really helpful.

I (sadly) sold my Master 9 and other stuff to pay off some old debts.  I'm slowly building up my system(s) again, and am thinking that the R-28 could work well as the centerpiece for my combined main living room and nearby desktop system, and then later when I can afford an HE-9 and R2R 7HE (and Master 2H), I'll move the R-28 (and my Precision 3*) to the bedroom.  (*Or I'll use Precision 3s for the centre and rear left and rear right channels in the living room, and get an 'A1' for the bedroom.  More than you cared to know, I'm sure.)



gLer said:


> I find the AGD balanced amps (R-28, NFB-1) to be designed for balanced, so the quality and power for headphones are better when balanced. Kingwa said as much when asked that very question. Nothing wrong with the SE quality, but for example I found the SE output of the R2R-11 to be similar if not slightly more punchy than the SE output of the R-28, whereas with balanced it’s no contest in favour of the R-28.



And thank-you for sharing that as well!  I'm sure the balanced out is in fact better on all balanced Audio-gd stuff; I'm just planning to use my single ended Ocharaku Flat 4 Kaede IIs, which lack a removable cable, as well as a single Precision 3 in the short-term.  I suppose option B would be to just get the C-2 and R2R 2 instead.  Hmm....


----------



## FredA

Turdski said:


> Thanks a lot for chiming in!  That's really helpful.
> 
> I (sadly) sold my Master 9 and other stuff to pay off some old debts.  I'm slowly building up my system(s) again, and am thinking that the R-28 could work well as the centerpiece for my combined main living room and nearby desktop system, and then later when I can afford an HE-9 and R2R 7HE (and Master 2H), I'll move the R-28 (and my Precision 3*) to the bedroom.  (*Or I'll use Precision 3s for the centre and rear left and rear right channels in the living room, and get an 'A1' for the bedroom.  More than you cared to know, I'm sure.)
> 
> ...



Nice to see you are as big an audio-gd fan as i am. I would use the r-28 and a-1 in a 2-channel setup. Should be very nice.


----------



## Heavyboxer

Ake_Y said:


> FredA / jerick70,
> 
> Thank you for your suggestions. I just tried again. The problem seems to be disappeared. I suspect that it might be related to my PC ( Windows 10 ) . Normally, I turn on R28 prior to my PC, but last night I did the opposite way. I will continue test and let you know if it happens again.



Am I the only one who leaves the R2R DACs on 24-7?
I read somewhere that the R2R-11 amp section had a sleeping mode, so only the DAC section will remain powered when left on.
Would be good if this is true, and especially so for the R28.

Prior to my upgrade, I left my R2R-11 on 24-7...
my modi multibit is always on too, at least till the R28 arrives. (I experienced imbalance issues the first 3 days of switching it on after a month of shutdown.)


----------



## FredA

Heavyboxer said:


> Am I the only one who leaves the R2R DACs on 24-7?
> I read somewhere that the R2R-11 amp section had a sleeping mode, so only the DAC section will remain powered when left on.
> Would be good if this is true, and especially so for the R28.
> 
> ...


All my gears are on 24/7. With the r2r 7 and master-1, it's mandatory as heat up time is in hours,


----------



## Ake_Y (Aug 22, 2018)

Heavyboxer said:


> Am I the only one who leaves the R2R DACs on 24-7?
> I read somewhere that the R2R-11 amp section had a sleeping mode, so only the DAC section will remain powered when left on.
> Would be good if this is true, and especially so for the R28.
> 
> ...



I asked Kingwa how to burn-in R28 when I received mine. Here is his reply.

“For the non discrete R2R burn in must play music but you can turn  the volume to 0 .
Other DA chips model can just power on.”

“If you burn in the R28 but no music playing , the DA parts will stop working, and no burn in on DA parts.
So playing music for burn in, if it is loud and you don't want listen music, turn the volume to minimum.”


----------



## Heavyboxer

Ake_Y said:


> I asked Kingwa how to burn-in R28 when I received mine. Here is his reply.
> 
> “For the non discrete R2R burn in must play music but you can turn  the volume to 0 .
> Other DA chips model can just power on.”
> ...



Regarding burn in, I didn't see much of an improvement on the R2R-11... as they were already very satisfactory to my ears!
With AGD's standard 100 hour burn in, I think whatever needs to be burnt in should be done by then. In my case, I think
keeping the unit heated constantly for at least a day is more important and gives me best results.

Also, I asked Kingwa about potential sleep mode on the amp section, and he says that the amp is always on.
together with the DAC section. I guess it's the drawback of a class A design.

I hope Kingwa has burnt in my R28 enough to ship tomorrow!


----------



## gLer (Aug 29, 2018)

Anyone here using an Atticus with their R-28. I'm seriously conflicted about the synergy between the R-28 and my Atty. Not that it's bad per se, just 'different'. Seems the neutrality and resolution of the R-28 make the Atticus sound more linear, much leaner, without the thick, thumping bass its renown for. It's less bloomy, but also less punchy as a result, certainly compared to the warmer but simpler R2R-11 and basic tube amps like the WA-3. My Elear is certainly punchier on the R-28, although the Atticus seems to benefit from its wider soundstage and better separation. And for a 'warm' headphone it seems to exhibit a touch of sibilance, depending on the recording. Never thought I'd ever hear that with an Atticus! Wondering if anyone else with this combo has found the same?

PS. For anyone about to suggest getting a tube amp (or higher impedance amp), don't bother - I've found my ideal AIO in thr R-28, so if anything has to go, it's (sadly) the Atty.

Update: no matter the setting (currently using NOS 1 as my preference) the Atty didn’t improve enough on the R-28 to my liking, and is currently on its way to a new owner


----------



## jerick70

I purchased an R-28 from another Head-fier and received it last week.  I have to say I am pretty impressed with the R-28.  It is right up their with my V281 / X-Sabre Pro pairing.  I'm also using it for a preamp attached to a First Watt ACA power amp that drive a pair of Zu Omen IIs.  Very clear and concise.  Detail retrieval is very close to the V281 / X-Sabre Pro.  You do need to let the R-28 warm up before it hits it's peak performance.  I have a lot more listening to do to form a final opinion but it is looking really good so far.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> I purchased an R-28 from another Head-fier and received it last week.  I have to say I am pretty impressed with the R-28.  It is right up their with my V281 / X-Sabre Pro pairing.  I'm also using it for a preamp attached to a First Watt ACA power amp that drive a pair of Zu Omen IIs.  Very clear and concise.  Detail retrieval is very close to the V281 / X-Sabre Pro.  You do need to let the R-28 warm up before it hits it's peak performance.  I have a lot more listening to do to form a final opinion but it is looking really good so far.


Thanks for the feedback, that’s very promising indeed (and an absolute bargain in terms of cost for performance). Look forward to your extended impressions.


----------



## gLer

On a totally different note, anyone heard from Kingwa lately? I emailed him a few days back asking for links to the new firmware so I can update the R-28 and haven’t heard back from him. Very unlike him. If any of you guys have the new fw files for the R-28 please could you PM me?


----------



## Heavyboxer

gLer said:


> On a totally different note, anyone heard from Kingwa lately? I emailed him a few days back asking for links to the new firmware so I can update the R-28 and haven’t heard back from him. Very unlike him. If any of you guys have the new fw files for the R-28 please could you PM me?



I messaged him back and forth up to last Friday, when I asked some questions regarding the R28 and potential future for a HE9 with an R2R DAC (answer: not possible, current huge HE9 is already jam packed)


----------



## Heavyboxer

FYI

The elusive Mr. Kingwa! (On the right, obviously)


 

I found this posting from 9 years ago:

http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/6614


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> I messaged him back and forth up to last Friday, when I asked some questions regarding the R28 and potential future for a HE9 with an R2R DAC (answer: not possible, current huge HE9 is already jam packed)


That’s what he said (repeatedly) when I was asking him about the possibility of an NFB-28 all-in-one with an R2R dac. Not enough space. A few months later, as I was about to buy the NFB-1/R2R-1, he announced the R-28, and the rest is history. So hang in there, a slightly larger R-9 is probably not too far off  (although you won’t be disappointed with the R-28 in my opinion).


----------



## gLer

Great news guys - R-28 firmware successfully accomplished! Thanks to @FredA and especially @vica1 for sending me the firmware files.

Managed to get Quartus II working on a Windows 7 VM on my Mac (using the excellent guide here: http://ezcontents.org/altera-quartus-mac-osx). Followed the instructions on AGD's site for the fw update (here: http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DSPupdataR2REN.htm) and got it done at the second time of asking. The first time I had the USB Blaster plugged in wrong - AGD site has it shown incorrectly for the R-28; the side with the small square extrusion needs to be pointing to the left of the dac looking at it from above, not the right (see photos below).

My heart nearly sank when I hit 'start' and the progress bar showed *failed*. Switched off, switched the Blaster around, tried again, success. Took literally 10 seconds.

First thing I tried - and am listening now - was NOS 3 mode. Before the update this was definitely BROKEN on my R-28. Clipping galore and all but unusable. Every other mode worked fine. With the new fw, lowered the volume right down, hit play, and...soft music. Louder, good, louder still, good, up to normal listening volume - superb. No clipping and only silky smooth sound. Probably placebo (or not), but I'm hearing familiar tracks with more clarity and depth, and a slightly wider stage too. 

Speaking of which, now comes the next dilemma. I used the smooth fw version, having read a few posts here and there that this is preferable for headphones. Has anyone else flashed their R-28, and if so, which fw version did you use (smooth or accurate)? Any thoughts on one over the other? 

I think I'll be enjoying smooth and NOS 3 for a while, get a feel for it with my favourite tracks. Then maybe play around with other settings. I'd prefer not to flash the fw again to accurate (assuming that means more neutral or a touch brighter). But if there's good reason to do so, speak now! 

More impressions to follow, and happy to answer any questions in case you haven't tried the above on your R-28 yet.


----------



## spacequeen7

Sounds like this is rushed product  and need some maturing ,Currawong still didn't post  review of this gear ..meh


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> Sounds like this is rushed product  and need some maturing ,Currawong still didn't post  review of this gear ..meh


Why do you say it's rushed? Same "issues" here appear on most of AGD's products in some way or another. Luckily there always seems to be a solution. And after about two hours' listening with the new 'smooth' R-28 firmware and NOS 3, I'm in absolute awe of the quality of this product. I honestly can't think of another all-in-one unit that can come close to what this thing can do for anywhere near this price.


----------



## spacequeen7

gLer said:


> Why do you say it's rushed? Same "issues" here appear on most of AGD's products in some way or another. Luckily there always seems to be a solution. And after about two hours' listening with the new 'smooth' R-28 firmware and NOS 3, I'm in absolute awe of the quality of this product. I honestly can't think of another all-in-one unit that can come close to what this thing can do for anywhere near this price.


I still have hopes ,don't get wrong I'm sure this will be great "all in one" unit but as far as I can tell it seams software is far behind the hardware and design 
Updating firmware sounds like PITA,telltale sign of bad coders ,updated firmware on my other DAC few days ago and it only took less than a min to do it ,it's all good just some growing pains which is typical of a brand new hardware 
Sounds like progress was made so waiting for others to chip in with some impressions 
Cheers


----------



## jerick70

spacequeen7 said:


> Sounds like this is rushed product  and need some maturing ,Currawong still didn't post  review of this gear ..meh


I've been really impressed with the R-28.  I'm coming from some TOTL gear too.  Violectric V281, Woo WA5, Matrix X-Sabre Pro, and RME ADI-2 Pro.  I was a bit skeptical when I bought it, but it has turning into my daily driver desktop amp / dac.  I definitely wouldn't call it meh.


----------



## spacequeen7

jerick70 said:


> I've been really impressed with the R-28.  I'm coming from some TOTL gear too.  Violectric V281, Woo WA5, Matrix X-Sabre Pro, and RME ADI-2 Pro.  I was a bit skeptical when I bought it, but it has turning into my daily driver desktop amp / dac.  I definitely wouldn't call it meh.


I was hoping more for a ex R2R11 owners since I'm aware already what to expect ,just need a bit more feedback


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> I've been really impressed with the R-28.  I'm coming from some TOTL gear too.  Violectric V281, Woo WA5, Matrix X-Sabre Pro, and RME ADI-2 Pro.  I was a bit skeptical when I bought it, but it has turning into my daily driver desktop amp / dac.  I definitely wouldn't call it meh.


I couldn’t agree more. All the so-called teething issues @spacequeen7 points out are actually just the way AGD rolls. Same fw upgrade process for the top-of-the-line R2R-7 dac. Sure it’s a pain, but only if you’re not really that technical or don’t use Windows. If you know your way around a computer you won’t have any issues, and if you do, AGD will TeamViewer to your PC and do it for you. 

Do I wish it was as easy as plugging in a USB stick or updating the fw online? Sure I do. But most dacs can’t do what AGD dacs can, and certainly not for the price. 

@jerick70 thats an impressive list of hardware, and all the validation anyone should need about just how good the R-28 can be...


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> I was hoping more for a ex R2R11 owners since I'm aware already what to expect ,just need a bit more feedback


I’m an ex R2R-11 owner. What would you like to know?


----------



## spacequeen7

gLer said:


> I couldn’t agree more. All the so-called teething issues @spacequeen7 points out are actually just the way AGD rolls. Same fw upgrade process for the top-of-the-line R2R-7 dac. Sure it’s a pain, but only if you’re not really that technical or don’t use Windows. If you know your way around a computer you won’t have any issues, and if you do, AGD will TeamViewer to your PC and do it for you.
> 
> Do I wish it was as easy as plugging in a USB stick or updating the fw online? Sure I do. But most dacs can’t do what AGD dacs can, and certainly not for the price.
> 
> @jerick70 thats an impressive list of hardware, and all the validation anyone should need about just how good the R-28 can be...


Haha ..no I think I know my way around since I was NDA testing/benching motherboards before they hit the retail in the past ..sound signature is what I'm interested in ,problems related to R2R11 don't bother me at all and I think most are blown out of proportion but I do love sound sig R2R11 provides and  DA-8 R-2R they using  feeding my H10,the lack of reviews of R28 is troublesome (that's why "meh") and just like to know if it's worth upgrading ,that's about it


----------



## normanl

How is R28 compared to Holo Audio Cyan (PCM Module w/ Balanced Headphone Amp)? I'm debating to choose one between these 2 R2R units, for both are in the similar price range. Has anyone ever had experience with both units?


----------



## FredA

spacequeen7 said:


> Sounds like this is rushed product  and need some maturing ,Currawong still didn't post  review of this gear ..meh


Currawong commented recently on the r2r-7 thread about the r-28 being almost undistinguishable from the hugo 2 or yggy playing material upsampled with roon. This is the actual quote:

*I was comparing the Yggy, R28 and Hugo 2 using the Master 9, and with the Power Plant Premier feeing them, the iUSB 3 as the digital transport for the R28 (and Hugo 2) and Roon's upsampling, I could get the R28 to be almost indistinguishable from the other two. Granted, this is with headphones and not speakers*.


----------



## jerick70

FredA said:


> Currawong commented recently on the r2r-7 thread about the r-28 being almost undistinguishable from the hugo 2 or yggy playing material upsampled with roon. This is the actual quote:
> 
> *I was comparing the Yggy, R28 and Hugo 2 using the Master 9, and with the Power Plant Premier feeing them, the iUSB 3 as the digital transport for the R28 (and Hugo 2) and Roon's upsampling, I could get the R28 to be almost indistinguishable from the other two. Granted, this is with headphones and not speakers*.


I have to agree with Currawong. It is an incredible sounding DAC. 

I'm driving Zu Omen IIs with the R28 acting as preamp / dac and a Pass Labs ACA power amp. I think it sounds superior to my V281 and the WA5 with high end dacs.

The R-28 is an incredible buy. 

FYI I haven't flashed the newest firmware either.


----------



## spacequeen7

FredA said:


> Currawong commented recently on the r2r-7 thread about the r-28 being almost undistinguishable from the hugo 2 or yggy playing material upsampled with roon. This is the actual quote:
> 
> *I was comparing the Yggy, R28 and Hugo 2 using the Master 9, and with the Power Plant Premier feeing them, the iUSB 3 as the digital transport for the R28 (and Hugo 2) and Roon's upsampling, I could get the R28 to be almost indistinguishable from the other two. Granted, this is with headphones and not speakers*.


 At this point I'm kinda debating between R1 and R28 and leaning toward DAC only since H20 is on my mind (will add iFi IESL in near future) ,to bad my current source is single-ended..who knows I might change my mind latter on 
Thank you


----------



## FredA

jerick70 said:


> I have to agree with Currawong. It is an incredible sounding DAC.
> 
> I'm driving Zu Omen IIs with the R28 acting as preamp / dac and a Pass Labs ACA power amp. I think it sounds superior to my V281 and the WA5 with high end dacs.
> 
> ...


Can't complain much about the r2r 7 with new firmware either.


----------



## FredA (Aug 30, 2018)

spacequeen7 said:


> At this point I'm kinda debating between R1 and R28 and leaning toward DAC only since H20 is on my mind (will add iFi IESL in near future) ,to bad my current source is single-ended..who knows I might change my mind latter on
> Thank you


The r-1 offers the dsp settings on the faceplate, which is a great addition. Or go r-8!


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> the lack of reviews of R28 is troublesome (that's why "meh") and just like to know if it's worth upgrading ,that's about it


There’s a lack of reviews because it’s a fairly new product and guys like @Currawong (who actually know and use Audio-gd products unlike some of those fly-by-nights on the ‘other’ forum) know that it takes time to burn in and properly evaluate the units.

As a former R2R-11 user and having had extensive listening sessions on the NFB-11 as well, I can tell you without hesitation that the R-28 is a major upgrade over the ‘entry level’ Audio-gd products, and considering how good the entry level all-in-one units are, that says something about how good the R-28 can be (with the right headphones, of course).


----------



## gLer

normanl said:


> How is R28 compared to Holo Audio Cyan (PCM Module w/ Balanced Headphone Amp)? I'm debating to choose one between these 2 R2R units, for both are in the similar price range. Has anyone ever had experience with both units?


I was debating between the two myself. Eventually I went for the R-28 because it had a better (more powerful) amp section, native DSD decoding and playback, and more useful features (like FPGA). Also I came from an R2R-11 and really like the AGD NOS ‘house sound’. If you do hear/get a Cyan please share your impressions here.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Currawong commented recently on the r2r-7 thread about the r-28 being almost undistinguishable from the hugo 2 or yggy playing material upsampled with roon. This is the actual quote:
> 
> *I was comparing the Yggy, R28 and Hugo 2 using the Master 9, and with the Power Plant Premier feeing them, the iUSB 3 as the digital transport for the R28 (and Hugo 2) and Roon's upsampling, I could get the R28 to be almost indistinguishable from the other two. Granted, this is with headphones and not speakers*.


I find at this high level of dac there’s only subtle differences if you’re already using excellent headphones and amping. I’m sure that’s also the case between the R-28 and R2R-7/R-8. No doubt there are improvement in the dacs that cost twice as much as an R-28, but given what I’m hearing, I’d wager they’re subtle improvements at best. Up to you if you can afford (and think it’s worth affording) that sort of outlay to get the last few drops of ‘performance’ from your dac. and keep in mind the value of AGD gear - you’ll struggle to find better sounding, more powerful and fuller featured gear for twice what the R-28 costs. 

If, like me, it doesn’t kill you not to hear the last warble of a guitar string or third echo of a piano key in a complex musical arrangement, then I suggest save your money and just get the gear that sounds best to your ears.


----------



## gLer

spacequeen7 said:


> At this point I'm kinda debating between R1 and R28 and leaning toward DAC only since H20 is on my mind (will add iFi IESL in near future) ,to bad my current source is single-ended..who knows I might change my mind latter on
> Thank you


My OCD forbids me to mix and match components from different manufacturers  

Besides, if you have to get separates, I’d get the R-1 and NFB-1 as a ‘set’ and forget about the Gustard.


----------



## normanl

gLer said:


> I was debating between the two myself. Eventually I went for the R-28 because it had a better (more powerful) amp section, native DSD decoding and playback, and more useful features (like FPGA). Also I came from an R2R-11 and really like the AGD NOS ‘house sound’. If you do hear/get a Cyan please share your impressions here.


Have you read Torq's review on the Cyan unit for which he highly praised. If you did, do you find the similar sound characteristics, i.e. sweet, smooth and seductive sound, from R-28? The only drawback about Cyan w/ PCM module is the lack of native DSD playback. By the way, do you encounter any pop and noise problems with R-28 as in the case with R2R-11?


----------



## gLer

normanl said:


> Have you read Torq's review on the Cyan unit for which he highly praised. If you did, do you find the similar sound characteristics, i.e. sweet, smooth and seductive sound, from R-28? The only drawback about Cyan w/ PCM module is the lack of native DSD playback. By the way, do you encounter any pop and noise problems with R-28 as in the case with R2R-11?


I haven’t read Torq’s review but I have no doubt the Cyan is an excellent piece of gear. Sweet, smooth and seductive is exactly how I’d describe the sound of the R-28, and also more detailed compared to the R2R-11 (which is something I always felt was missing on that otherwise wonderful little unit). With good headphones the detail on the R-28 is incredible, combined with the same smooth, natural presentation of the R2R NOS dac. The only time I’ve experienced ‘pops’ in the R-28 was switching between DSD and PCM. Since I converted all my DSD albums to PCM I’ve had zero popping. Also the R-28 plays DSDs noise free, unlike the R2R-11 which is riddled with DSD noise issues with certain albums.


----------



## Currawong

I've been slower than planned with reviews. It's summer which means the kids are home and it's so hot that running hot gear and an air-conditioner at the same time results in a crazy power bill.

I have a power conditioner, various USB conditioners and Audirvana Plus and Roon, so the combination of all three pushes the R28 in SQ quite a bit.  It sounds warmer and less clear without those things helping it, but not in a way that is at all unpleasant. I'm in agreement with the people who are really enjoying listening with it -- the sound is purely pleasant.  I actually have to shoot the review now as I've run out of space on my rack and it has to make way for....

...something else.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> I've been slower than planned with reviews. It's summer which means the kids are home and it's so hot that running hot gear and an air-conditioner at the same time results in a crazy power bill.
> 
> I have a power conditioner, various USB conditioners and Audirvana Plus and Roon, so the combination of all three pushes the R28 in SQ quite a bit.  It sounds warmer and less clear without those things helping it, but not in a way that is at all unpleasant. I'm in agreement with the people who are really enjoying listening with it -- the sound is purely pleasant.  I actually have to shoot the review now as I've run out of space on my rack and it has to make way for....
> 
> ...something else.


Looking forward! You mention various USB conditioners - could you possibly comment on the value (or not) of bypassing USB altogether and getting a USB to I2S converter, and what effect that might have (or not) on the SQ of the R-28?


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> @jerick70 thats an impressive list of hardware, and all the validation anyone should need about just how good the R-28 can be...


I have the Matrix X-spdif 2 I2S converter coming in the mail right now. I've read that this will be a huge upgrade.  If it is this is going to put the R-28 in another league.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> I have the Matrix X-spdif 2 I2S converter coming in the mail right now. I've read that this will be a huge upgrade.  If it is this is going to put the R-28 in another league.


I'll be very interested to hear your impressions. I seriously doubt a simple interface change will transform the sound to any notable degree, unless you're solving a problem like a very noisy USB port. I mean the R-28 is already so good, how much better can a change of port make it...? Let's see...


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> I'll be very interested to hear your impressions. I seriously doubt a simple interface change will transform the sound to any notable degree, unless you're solving a problem like a very noisy USB port. I mean the R-28 is already so good, how much better can a change of port make it...? Let's see...


I previously tried the Singxer SU-1 and I wasn't impressed.  I sold it promptly.  So I'm a bit skeptical with the X-SPDIF 2.  I didn't try the I2S though.  

I've changed my audio chain and added I2S devices since then so I wanted to give it a try again.  I've also added a SGC i5 Roon server with a RoPieee Roon endpoint. This has made a HUGE improvement to the fidelity of my audio chain.  PC USB audio is just so so.


----------



## FredA

Currawong said:


> I've been slower than planned with reviews. It's summer which means the kids are home and it's so hot that running hot gear and an air-conditioner at the same time results in a crazy power bill.
> 
> I have a power conditioner, various USB conditioners and Audirvana Plus and Roon, so the combination of all three pushes the R28 in SQ quite a bit.  It sounds warmer and less clear without those things helping it, but not in a way that is at all unpleasant. I'm in agreement with the people who are really enjoying listening with it -- the sound is purely pleasant.  I actually have to shoot the review now as I've run out of space on my rack and it has to make way for....
> 
> ...something else.



R-8?


----------



## Viper2005

For those who have owned both units, which NOS setting most closely resembles the R2R11 on the R28 with the current smooth firmware?


----------



## gibsonsg87

Hi everyone. I'm seriously thinking about purchasing the R-28 by the end of this week. Will it be a good match for both of my ZMF Headphones? (Blackwood and Eikon to be specific.)


----------



## jerick70

gibsonsg87 said:


> Hi everyone. I'm seriously thinking about purchasing the R-28 by the end of this week. Will it be a good match for both of my ZMF Headphones? (Blackwood and Eikon to be specific.)


The Blackwood will be an excellent pairing with the R-28.  I have a pair of LCD-2s and they are almost identical sounding to the Blackwood.  I've owned Blackwoods in the past....

I'm not sure about the Eikon's.  I've never heard them.


----------



## gLer

Viper2005 said:


> For those who have owned both units, which NOS setting most closely resembles the R2R11 on the R28 with the current smooth firmware?


In my experience, NOS 3, although NOS 3 on the R-28 is a significant upgrade in every way to NOS on the R2R-11, especially if you use balanced headphones. I honestly didn't expect anything to sound 'significantly better' than the R2R-11, given how good the R2R-11 sounds, but the R-28 managed to do just that. I shudder to think there are even better sources and amps out there, given what I'm hearing now (and how much you'd have to spend for an equivalent jump up in quality over the R-28).


----------



## gLer

gibsonsg87 said:


> Hi everyone. I'm seriously thinking about purchasing the R-28 by the end of this week. Will it be a good match for both of my ZMF Headphones? (Blackwood and Eikon to be specific.)


Unfortunately it wasn't the best match-up for my Atticus, although that's personal taste. Some might actually prefer the toned down bass and extended highs of the Atticus on there R-28; I just felt it missed the point of what the Atticus is supposed to be - a warm, revealing, unashamedly bass-driven headphone with unrivalled mids for a 'closed' headphone. Not sure about the Eikon or Blackwood as I haven't heard either.


----------



## normanl

Has anyone listened to both R-28 and Ares and how they are compared to each other?


----------



## Heavyboxer

Excited that my R-28 will FINALLY be arriving tomorrow! (1 week in China with no updates.... EMS China sucks!)


----------



## xenithon

normanl said:


> Has anyone listened to both R-28 and Ares and how they are compared to each other?



I used to own the Ares, and then subsequently the R2R-11 and now the R-28.

The Ares was very musical, and presented an incredible amount of detail in a relatively laid back manner. It had a wonderful ability to provide a smoothness to the sound without smearing or losing fine detail. The caveat was that it could be too laid back - so not ideal for anything rock, metal, or EDM related.

The R2R-11 was also musical but more dynamic. It was certainly a step up in terms of excitement, though at the same time it had euphonic character that was not as detailed as the Ares.

The R-28 seems to provide the best of both and hence is a noteworthy upgrade. It has the detail and articulation / refinement of the Ares (in fact, even more detail is extracted) while also being extremely powerful and dynamic like the R2R-11 (but again, even more so, so an upgrade in that regard too).

Granted these are different types of units (SE vs. balanced, DAC only vs. all-in-one) but the above was my findings in general with various amps in the mix.


----------



## jerick70

I received my Matrix X-SPDIF 2 yesterday.  I have it connected to the I2S out on the R-28 -> X-SPDIF 2 -> iFi iDefender 3.0 -> powered USB hub -> Windows 10 PC.  I definitely hear a difference with the X-SPDIF 2 in the audio chain.  I have some more listening to do but it is very positive so far.


----------



## Heavyboxer

So the postman just dropped this off:



 

Packed very well:


 

And setup temporarily on my pc till I clear some space for this beast: 

 

I had no idea my LCD-2 sounded THIS good!!!


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> So the postman just dropped this off:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats! You’d swear Audeze voiced their headphones on this amp. Try out NOS 3, my favorite setting by far.


----------



## Heavyboxer

gLer said:


> Congrats! You’d swear Audeze voiced their headphones on this amp. Try out NOS 3, my favorite setting by far.



It's been only a few hours since the unit has been on. As per my experience with R2R DACs (R2R-11, Modi multibit), think I should give it at least 48 hours non stop power to stabilize.
(the Modi multibit was so bad that I had channel imbalance for 3 days after I switched off the unit when on holidays).

That being said, I did try the jumper thingy, cause I was super curious. The NOS 3 (S1 ON, S4 ON) seemed a lil weak to me. (Perhaps not burnt in enough or wrong jumpers?)

We really should get some proper chart to spell out exactly what's going on with what jumper, etc.


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> It's been only a few hours since the unit has been on. As per my experience with R2R DACs (R2R-11, Modi multibit), think I should give it at least 48 hours non stop power to stabilize.
> (the Modi multibit was so bad that I had channel imbalance for 3 days after I switched off the unit when on holidays).
> 
> That being said, I did try the jumper thingy, cause I was super curious. The NOS 3 (S1 ON, S4 ON) seemed a lil weak to me. (Perhaps not burnt in enough or wrong jumpers?)
> ...


Yes I burned mine in for 500 hours before giving it a proper listen, but it was excellent out the box. My NOS 3 was broken (clipping and distortion at low volume levels) but the new fw (smooth) fixed that and now it’s superb. Put it this way, I’m not sure what ingredients Kingwa used for the new fw but anything that gives the Elear this much soundstage (width and depth) should be widely applauded! Good luck with yours!


----------



## Heavyboxer

Does anyone have issues with Foobar freezing up?

Unknown error code : 0x88880001

I checked online, and it said try changing output sample rate to a lower Hz.

Mine was on 32bit 384Khz and froze (windows bing and clicks were normal, as were media player, just Foobar)
and once I changed to a lower rate, it worked... till it didn't even with 352Khz, so lowered it to 192Khz and now
it seems fine.

Very strange!


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> Does anyone have issues with Foobar freezing up?
> 
> Unknown error code : 0x88880001
> 
> ...


Sounds like your PC can't handle the processing requirements of such high-res files?


----------



## Heavyboxer

gLer said:


> Sounds like your PC can't handle the processing requirements of such high-res files?



Dude, I'm using a 3 month old $2k+ system!


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> Dude, I'm using a 3 month old $2k+ system!


Maybe that’s not the issue then


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> So the postman just dropped this off:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome to the club my friend.  You are going to love the R-28 even more as you let it burn in.  I had a similar experience where my R-28 sounded terrible at first but I left it on for a few days and it sounded fabulous afterwords.  I don't turn it off now.


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> Does anyone have issues with Foobar freezing up?
> 
> Unknown error code : 0x88880001
> 
> ...


Try changing the R-28s default playback to something else beside the default.  I think it is at 16 bit, 48000 Hz.  Try 16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality).  You can do this in the control panel under sound.


----------



## Heavyboxer

jerick70 said:


> Try changing the R-28s default playback to something else beside the default.  I think it is at 16 bit, 48000 Hz.  Try 16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality).  You can do this in the control panel under sound.



But wouldn't that lower resolution?

Ive heard that most people can't differentiate over 44khz cd quality but if my system can handle it, I want to utilize it and get the best results possible.

That bring said, problem did not reappear after I lowered it to 96Khz. Still sounds glorious to my 40 odd year old ears.


----------



## jerick70 (Sep 6, 2018)

Heavyboxer said:


> But wouldn't that lower resolution?
> 
> Ive heard that most people can't differentiate over 44khz cd quality but if my system can handle it, I want to utilize it and get the best results possible.
> 
> That bring said, problem did not reappear after I lowered it to 96Khz. Still sounds glorious to my 40 odd year old ears.


Yes supposedly it will. The issue is there is a bug with Foobar and Windows and higher rez listening on your PC.  This doesn't happen on all PCs. Just out of curiosity what PC do you have? 

You could upgrade to JRiver or Audirvana Plus and the problem should be solved.


----------



## Heavyboxer (Sep 6, 2018)

jerick70 said:


> Yes supposedly it will. The issue is there is a bug with Foobar and Windows and higher rez listening on your PC.  This doesn't happen on all PCs. Just out of curiosity what PC do you have?
> 
> You could upgrade to JRiver or Audirvana Plus and the problem should be solved.



Lemme see now...




CPU : coffeelake i5 8600k
Cooler: corsair H80 v2 water AIO
M board : Asus strix z370-i
RAM : 32Gb 3xxx (upgraded from 2× 8Gb 2400Mhz)
VGA : MSI 1070Ti gaming D5 8Gb
HDD: Nvme samsung 1Tb x 2 (started off as a single 512Gb but quickly ran out of space)
Power: Corsair tx550 gold
Case : Fractal Node 304

I usually use a PC for about 6~7 years, so i try to maximize as much as I can when I buy a system. My weak link is my monitor, a cheap $300 32" that was plenty for me previously... but I can see tearing sometimes and I might just get that changed too at a later time.


----------



## jerick70 (Sep 7, 2018)

Heavyboxer said:


> Lemme see now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice computer!  I'm a huge PC builder myself.  I do it to relax.  Nothing like the smell of new PC parts....

One suggestion is upgrading your power supply though.  It is a little under powered for what you are running.  I use Newegg's power supply calculator to see what type of wattage I need for my builds.  Your awesome PC requires 669 watts according to their calculator.  This may be why your getting the error in Foobar.

https://images10.newegg.com/BizIntell/tool/psucalc/index.html


----------



## Heavyboxer

jerick70 said:


> Nice computer!  I'm a huge PC builder myself.  I do it to relax.  Nothing like the smell of new PC parts....
> 
> One suggestion is upgrading your power supply though.  It is a little under powered for what you are running.  I use Newegg's power supply calculator to see what type of wattage I need for my builds.  Your awesome PC requires 669 watts according to their calculator.  This may be why your getting the error in Foobar.
> 
> https://images10.newegg.com/BizIntell/tool/psucalc/index.html



Oh wow, never thought of it that way... perhaps that's why my pc has been a bit jittery at times... 7 years ago, 550watts was max overkill and run a small server...


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> Oh wow, never thought of it that way... perhaps that's why my pc has been a bit jittery at times... 7 years ago, 550watts was max overkill and run a small server...


There's a very good chance that may be the problem.  The 1070 Ti alone takes 500 watts according to MSI.

Corsair makes some of the best power supplies IMO. So sticking with them would be a good idea IMO. I would put some headroom in there wattage wise too. 850 - 1000 watts is what I would use to run that build.


----------



## halcyon

(OFFTOPIC)


jerick70 said:


> There's a very good chance that may be the problem.  The 1070 Ti alone takes 500 watts according to MSI..



No it doesn't. Stop believing silly MSI PR dept or useless "calculators".

Actual measurement data says peak 175-185W in gaming. Absolute temporal peak c. 260W when seriously overclocked:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-gtx-1070-ti-gaming-8g,5338-4.html
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/msi-geforce-gtx-1070-ti-gaming-review,8.html
(/OFFTOPIC)

Now can we please get back to the topic: 
*Audio-Gd R-28 *


----------



## jerick70 (Sep 7, 2018)

halcyon said:


> (OFFTOPIC)
> 
> 
> No it doesn't. Stop believing silly MSI PR dept or useless "calculators".
> ...


You haven't read the whole conversation with @Heavyboxer, have you? He's having issues with using his R-28 with Foobar. Very on topic.

The rest of your  condescending post... roll my eyes....


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> You haven't read the whole conversation with @Heavyboxer, have you? He's having issues with using his R-28 with Foobar. Very on topic.
> 
> The rest of your  condescending post... roll my eyes....


Some people 

By the way I’m listening to DSD128 off a 6-year-old Mac mini with 4GB RAM. If Foobar can’t cut it on such a powerful PC, I suggest he switches music software.


----------



## jerick70

gLer said:


> Some people
> 
> By the way I’m listening to DSD128 off a 6-year-old Mac mini with 4GB RAM. If Foobar can’t cut it on such a powerful PC, I suggest he switches music software.


Changing music software is an excellent idea. JRiver or Audirvana Plus are good starting points.


----------



## Heavyboxer

Whoa peeps, let's all chill.

My pc spec talk will stop here. It was a lil on topic since it was related to the R28.. then again, it's about the source so perhaps not.

Anyway, let's all be happy. 

I'll certainly try out other recommended music software (foobar looks boring as bat schiit anyhow)


----------



## uberworker

Heavyboxer said:


> Whoa peeps, let's all chill.
> 
> My pc spec talk will stop here. It was a lil on topic since it was related to the R28.. then again, it's about the source so perhaps not.
> 
> ...


Also are you using optical or USB sir? Not familiar with the USB ports on that mobo... Maybe try one of the USB 2.0 ports if available?  At the end of the day, it's about helping each other out, right?


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> Whoa peeps, let's all chill.
> 
> My pc spec talk will stop here. It was a lil on topic since it was related to the R28.. then again, it's about the source so perhaps not.
> 
> ...


Hopefully I didn't make your R-28 experience a bad one.... Just trying to help.


----------



## jerick70

uberworker said:


> Also are you using optical or USB sir? Not familiar with the USB ports on that mobo... Maybe try one of the USB 2.0 ports if available?  At the end of the day, it's about helping each other out, right?


Good point. 

Helping is part of what I thought this thread was for. If I'm wrong please correct me.


----------



## Heavyboxer

My R28 has both a USB (2.0, stock  blue cable as sent by Audio-gd) as well as optical connected to the PC. Note that even when Foobar was tripping, Windows media could still play tracks fine. Am thinking perhaps I don't know Foobar enough (so more settings need to be played with) and/or maybe some compatibility issues with Amanero boards. (Drivers already installed during R2R-11 days.)

FYI I find Audio-gd R2R DAC's don't handle optical over 96Khz well (spec also shows 96khz is the limit). Unit has a periodic noise/buzz (about every 3 seconds) from headphones if 192Khz is selected.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> Good point.
> 
> Helping is part of what I thought this thread was for. If I'm wrong please correct me.


You are quite correct, even if it means steering slightly off topic to solve an issue that's very much on topic. Some people just have to play boss


----------



## jerick70

@Heavyboxer one thing that you said earlier about your computer being "jittery" has me wondering if you have an issue somewhere in your system. It's possible it's the power supply not being powerful enough. But it could be many other things.


----------



## gLer

jerick70 said:


> @Heavyboxer one thing that you said earlier about your computer being "jittery" has me wondering if you have an issue somewhere in your system. It's possible it's the power supply not being powerful enough. But it could be many other things.


@Heavyboxer are you running other tasks at the same time as listening to music? Even on my 3.4Ghz quad core i7 iMac with 32GB RAM I still have glitches if I try listen to high-res or upsampled music while doing some heavy lifting (photo or video editing). Which is why I just switched over to a dedicated Mac mini music server that does nothing else but process music.


----------



## Heavyboxer

jerick70 said:


> @Heavyboxer one thing that you said earlier about your computer being "jittery" has me wondering if you have an issue somewhere in your system. It's possible it's the power supply not being powerful enough. But it could be many other things.





gLer said:


> @Heavyboxer are you running other tasks at the same time as listening to music? Even on my 3.4Ghz quad core i7 iMac with 32GB RAM I still have glitches if I try listen to high-res or upsampled music while doing some heavy lifting (photo or video editing). Which is why I just switched over to a dedicated Mac mini music server that does nothing else but process music.



Thanks for all the troubleshooting. 

I'll look into upgrading my power supply to perhaps a 800w (if I can fit the darn thing in my micro case) when I'm back from my business trip in 2 weeks.

As for jitters, it happens quite a bit when playing Assassin's Creed Origins on full/max resolution. My bluetooth keyboard/mouse started to cut out too, so changed to wired peripherals since and it seems alright.. but game still sometimes freezes for 3~5 seconds, then all is normal again. (PC temps show acceptable levels) 
FYI, I did not overclock my PC, as the room got super hot in summer, and will push for 5Ghz after a month when it gets chilly. (I have tried it, and seems to hit 5Ghz easy using the stock Asus 5Ghz overclock profile)

That being said, when its time to listen to music with my R-28, I lay back in my chair, legs on the table, eyes closed... there is hardly anything else going on in the background.(well, except Bitlord for those hard to get shows over here)


----------



## wietschebehr

Heavyboxer said:


> Lemme see now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am a regular Foobar2000 user. Assuming that you were only busy figuring out the R28 and fixing the sound and not doing anything else in the background with the GPU, that PC used very little power to do what you were trying to do. Its not the PSU. Although, I do agree with previous comments, get a 700w+ PSU, and see if you can get a very low electrical noise power supply. I run a 1080ti with the rest almost exact spec as yours, but with a 750W PSU. 

It is definetely a software issue you have there. Foobar is very powerfull if you can wield it properly and customize everything, including the looks, to your liking. Else, rather stay away and use the suggested alternative players. You can follow the very good guides here and try one last time to get Foobar2000 to work:
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/

But then I suggest looking at your drivers, connections, OS settings and music player to find the issue. I am using a Raspberry Pi to play DSD to my DAC and the NFB1 amp with zero issues, and the Pi CPU does not even break a sweat. Its not your hardware (if all parts are in working order and not something wrong with). You can test it very easily by just removing the GPU and other "useless" hardware temporarily and just play music to your DAC. I predict you will have exactly the same issues. If not.. well, let hope this is not the case.. 

When using optical you must limit the sample rate to 96khz in the software and give it exclusive access to your Amenero audio device. In some cases 192khz work, but the official rating is 96khz. I reccommend USB if you don't have power noise issues, and like it was suggested, use USB2. USB3 can be very noisy. I myself use optical sometimes but that is because my tube amplifier picks up serious noise from my PC when I make any electrical connection to my PC. And then I get all the symptoms you get if I don't put in that 96khz cap and downsample everyting higher than that. I actually also upsample to 96khz to simplify things as I found no difference in sound quality otherwise and because for some bizarre reason my motherboard optical out can't produce 88.2khz, but everything else below 96khz in multiples of 44.1 and 48 has no issue. In your case with Windows set to a fixed 96khz and using Windows Media Player that uses Direct Sound, and it works 100%, its indicating even more towards your player settings.

I want to suggest an unconventional alternative playing method, just to test your R28, if you are willing. If you have an Android phone, get the USB Audio Player Pro app and get a USB OTG cable for your phone and plug your DAC directly into the phone USB port via the OTG cable. Play some music and have a listen how good it actually sounds. This method uses the DAC exclusively and you don't have to install drivers. A good check. But if you are not comfortable with this just ignore the suggestion. 

Hope this helps. Not trying to upset the other guys that tried to help, just giving my opinion and view on where to focus to solve this.

Cherrs,
W


----------



## vica1

R 28 with clear cover and jumpers replaced for push buttons


----------



## Heavyboxer

vica1 said:


> R 28 with clear cover and jumpers replaced for push buttons



Very clean & cleverly done!


----------



## alota

vica1 said:


> R 28 with clear cover and jumpers replaced for push buttons


WOW! you made this work?


----------



## gLer

vica1 said:


> R 28 with clear cover and jumpers replaced for push buttons


That’s awesome! Can you clue us in on how you made the clear cover, and also the jumper replacements?


----------



## FinBenton

That looks amazing allthough someone in china is probably having a heart attack when its not fully shielded


----------



## vica1

Thank you guys. Cover is 2mm plexi glass, cut out with laser. Jumpers are not totally replaced, but only connected with cable to the push buttons.


----------



## gLer

vica1 said:


> Thank you guys. Cover is 2mm plexi glass, cut out with laser. Jumpers are not totally replaced, but only connected with cable to the push buttons.


You should cost it and offer it as an upgrade kit for R-28 owners (pre-cut plexiglass top, jumpers/cables/push buttons).


----------



## gLer

FinBenton said:


> That looks amazing allthough someone in china is probably having a heart attack when its not fully shielded


Is plexiglass a bad idea compared to the aluminium top?


----------



## Heavyboxer

gLer said:


> You should cost it and offer it as an upgrade kit for R-28 owners (pre-cut plexiglass top, jumpers/cables/push buttons).



I'd buy a kit pronto.


----------



## FinBenton (Sep 8, 2018)

gLer said:


> Is plexiglass a bad idea compared to the aluminium top?


I dont think it will make any difference in most listening environments but yes ofc grounded metal shielding around electronic components is technically better.


----------



## jerick70

vica1 said:


> Thank you guys. Cover is 2mm plexi glass, cut out with laser. Jumpers are not totally replaced, but only connected with cable to the push buttons.


If buy a mod kit if you offered it.  Very cool.


----------



## FredA (Sep 8, 2018)

vica1 said:


> Thank you guys. Cover is 2mm plexi glass, cut out with laser. Jumpers are not totally replaced, but only connected with cable to the push buttons.


Awesome work. The same mod could be done by drilling the original cover for those who want aluminum. If you need an extra cover, order from audio-gd.

How well do the config buttons work? Are there any glitches changing the settings live?


----------



## vica1

FredA said:


> Awesome work. The same mod could be done by drilling the original cover for those who want aluminum. If you need an extra cover, order from audio-gd.
> 
> How well do the config buttons work? Are there any glitches changing the settings live?


Thanks. I did not try changing settings live, only when power off.


----------



## FredA

vica1 said:


> Thanks. I did not try changing settings live, only when power off.


Kingwa would tell you if that can cause damage. Ask him if you have a chance

I like the possibility of seeing through. 

Overheating concern: have you measured the internal temperature before and after?


----------



## vica1

FredA said:


> Kingwa would tell you if that can cause damage. Ask him if you have a chance
> 
> I like the possibility of seeing through.
> 
> Overheating concern: have you measured the internal temperature before and after?


I will ask him.
I had not measured the internal temperature,  but the temperature of the cover is normal(slightly warm). I have made a bit largest ventilation holes as originally.


----------



## FredA

vica1 said:


> I will ask him.
> I had not measured the internal temperature,  but the temperature of the cover is normal(slightly warm). I have made a bit largest ventilation holes as originally.


Good call as plexi has less thermal conductivity.


----------



## vica1 (Sep 9, 2018)

FredA said:


> Kingwa would tell you if that can cause damage. Ask him if you have a chance


Kingwa wrote.
You can switch the setting without power off the unit, but I am advice you operate as below:
Turn low the preamp or headphone amp volume.
Stop the source music playing.
Switch the settings.
Start the music playing.
Turn high the volume to proper.

For better avoid the RF interrupt, you can find a metal reseau under the glass, and let the reseau can connect to the chassis through the screws .


----------



## Heavyboxer

vica1 said:


> Kingwa wrote.
> You can switch the setting without power off the unit, but I am advice you operate as below:
> Turn low the preamp or headphone amp volume.
> Stop the source music playing.
> ...



Photo link isn't working.

So anyway, seriously... lemme know how much you'd ljke to sell for your kit.


----------



## vica1

Heavyboxer said:


> Photo link isn't working.
> 
> So anyway, seriously... lemme know how much you'd ljke to sell for your kit.


I do not will sell it 
Componetns(cable, connectors, push buttons, plexiglass cut out with laser) cost about 65€ and 5 hours of my work


----------



## Heavyboxer

vica1 said:


> I do not will sell it
> Componetns(cable, connectors, push buttons, plexiglass cut out with laser) cost about 65€ and 5 hours of my work



I don't mean sell me yours, I meant make me a new one and I will pay you for it, including your (hopefully not so large) profit.


----------



## vica1

Heavyboxer said:


> I don't mean sell me yours, I meant make me a new one and I will pay you for it, including your (hopefully not so large) profit.


Sorry, I dont 
I can post my pattern here, and you can try make it your self


----------



## Heavyboxer

vica1 said:


> Sorry, I dont
> I can post my pattern here, and you can try make it your self



Aight, fair enough 

Just know that someone was impressed enough to buy your invention!


----------



## gLer

vica1 said:


> Sorry, I dont
> I can post my pattern here, and you can try make it your self


That would be very useful, thanks. Could you also explain how you made the push button jumper replacements?


----------



## gLer

You know how they say a great head-fi system lets you hear your old albums in entirely new ways. I just realised how true this is today when I decided to play one of my all-time favourites - Neil Diamond’s ‘The Jazz Singer’ - for the first time through the R-28 and Elear. 

For some reason this album takes me to a very special place every time I hear it, but today I heard it as if for the very first time. So powerful were the emotions from discovering parts of songs I know so well that I never even knew existed - guitar riffs, tiny effects isolated to one or other channnel, and even an extra layer or two to Neil’s voice - that I completely lost myself, again, to the music. 

For me, ‘endgame’ is the point where the gear has taken you as far as it can, and the music takes over. If this is true, I’m here.


----------



## vica1 (Sep 9, 2018)

gLer said:


> That would be very useful, thanks. Could you also explain how you made the push button jumper replacements?


16 pin connector for ribbon cable.




2 pin connectors.




Push buttons and cable.


 



*Patern, scale 1:1.*
https://ulozto.net/!XuPpSMRLmn8g/r28-pdf


----------



## muscleking

Hey guys 
Looking for some end game dac and amp. Then found out about r2r nos and stuff 2 days ago. This r28 seems to be like the best value for money. Not cheap but not too expensive. I can sell my current source and amp to justify the purchase after if this is good. I want to make my lcd 3  stax 407 and grado gh2 sound better than what I use now. Is this r28 will be huge improvement? Looking at inside of this device compare to some other device over 2000 bucks audio gd seem to put a lot of high quality parts inside a case than other designs. Not sure good or bad but seem to get moneys worth hardware wise. 

Currently my set up don't get much bass on the lcd 3. The nx4 dsd bass boost have some extra bass on the lcd3 but sounds conjested. Going through the little dot iii make it sound a bit bigger stage. Everything sounds pretty good but I wonder if things can get better with a big dac and amp like this. Also I want to try run the lcd3 balanced. 

So this one is 1038 bucks usd plus shipping is that the cheapest price?

Locally there is  Audio gd 10.32 for sale for 900 usd equivalent. Is that one sound close or better than this r28? I do find all my music sound digital vs real life. I saw a metrum onyx I think it's a dac about 2000 Canadian. Inside looks kind empty. So many choices for audio device.


----------



## FredA

muscleking said:


> Hey guys
> Looking for some end game dac and amp. Then found out about r2r nos and stuff 2 days ago. This r28 seems to be like the best value for money. Not cheap but not too expensive. I can sell my current source and amp to justify the purchase after if this is good. I want to make my lcd 3  stax 407 and grado gh2 sound better than what I use now. Is this r28 will be huge improvement? Looking at inside of this device compare to some other device over 2000 bucks audio gd seem to put a lot of high quality parts inside a case than other designs. Not sure good or bad but seem to get moneys worth hardware wise.
> 
> Currently my set up don't get much bass on the lcd 3. The nx4 dsd bass boost have some extra bass on the lcd3 but sounds conjested. Going through the little dot iii make it sound a bit bigger stage. Everything sounds pretty good but I wonder if things can get better with a big dac and amp like this. Also I want to try run the lcd3 balanced.
> ...



The r-28 is more configurable and slightly more resolved if i rely on what you get with the r-7 and r-11. I suppose  you are talking about the reference 10.32 and not the nfb10.32.The reference 10.32 would be similar to the old master-7,  but not quite as good. The master-7 is mellower but not so much so with the latest firmware. With a great i2s transport, it can sound very very well, especially with the latest firmware. Just through usb, the r-28 should sound better. Imaging should be better with the r-28 whatever you do. The amp section of the ref10.32 is similar to the former master-9, so it is more neutral and powerful than that of the r-28. So 900usd is not a bad deal.


----------



## Tostitostelli

I was saving up for the NFB 28. Now im confused, which should i get?


----------



## gLer

Tostitostelli said:


> I was saving up for the NFB 28. Now im confused, which should i get?


Have you heard an R2R ladder dac before? Heard a NOS dac before? And what are you looking for from your system?


----------



## Tostitostelli

i havent heard a ladder Dac or NOS Dac before. Im coming from a JDS Element, and looking to go balanced. Will be using either the R28 or NFB28 , with  the Lcd2 classic and Ether C Flow. What im looking for in my system is low distortion, a great balanced headphone amp(looks like the R28 might be behind the NFB28 in that department?) , rca output in the back. im sorry if i cant describe it well enough, im still relatively new. I guess you could say im looking to go from the single-ended Element to "endgame" dac+amp balanced combo. even tho there isnt such a thing as endgame in the audio world i've learned.


----------



## maellen

Currawong review is up


----------



## gLer (Sep 10, 2018)

Tostitostelli said:


> i havent heard a ladder Dac or NOS Dac before. Im coming from a JDS Element, and looking to go balanced. Will be using either the R28 or NFB28 , with  the Lcd2 classic and Ether C Flow. What im looking for in my system is low distortion, a great balanced headphone amp(looks like the R28 might be behind the NFB28 in that department?) , rca output in the back. im sorry if i cant describe it well enough, im still relatively new. I guess you could say im looking to go from the single-ended Element to "endgame" dac+amp balanced combo. even tho there isnt such a thing as endgame in the audio world i've learned.


The amp section in the NFB-28 and R-28 is identical, both essentially an NFB-1. My own listening tests between the R-28 and NFB-1 confirm there is zero difference between amps.

The dacs of the R-28 and NFB-28 is where you'll find the biggest differences. the NFB-28 uses delta sigma ESS Sabre dac chips, while the R-28 has a discrete R2R ladder dac with both OS and NOS capabilities. In my opinion, the R-28 provides a smoother, more analog and more musical sound than the ESS dacs I've heard in the past, but it's a fine line and all a matter of taste. The ESS has its own advantages, like multiple filters. Also the NFB-28 comes in two flavours (NFB-28.28 and NFB-28.38). If you decide on the NFB-28 and budget allows, definitely opt for the NFB-28.38.

I suggest you read up on the differences between dacs and NOS/OS, and maybe try listen to a few, before you make your 'endgame' decision. Either way, both NFB-28 and R-28 are a significant upgrade over the JDS Element.

Edit: the R-28 amp in fact has one advantage over the NFB-28: true gain. The NFB-28 hasow and high gain, but high gain simply steepens the volume curve over low gain (from 99 steps to 63 steps). The R-28 has true gain, so high gain is in order of 10dB difference to low gain (with the same 99 steps), and F mode is high gain with 63 steps.


----------



## Tostitostelli

gLer said:


> The amp section in the NFB-28 and R-28 is identical, both essentially an NFB-1. My own listening tests between the R-28 and NFB-1 confirm there is zero difference between amps.
> 
> The dacs of the R-28 and NFB-28 is where you'll find the biggest differences. the NFB-28 uses delta sigma ESS Sabre dac chips, while the R-28 has a discrete R2R ladder dac with both OS and NOS capabilities. In my opinion, the R-28 provides a smoother, more analog and more musical sound than the ESS dacs I've heard in the past, but it's a fine line and all a matter of taste. The ESS has its own advantages, like multiple filters. Also the NFB-28 comes in two flavours (NFB-28.28 and NFB-28.38). If you decide on the NFB-28 and budget allows, definitely opt for the NFB-28.38.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your detailed reply gLer! it has certainly cleared some things up for me  . Im still pretty much 50/50 on them tho, so ill take your advice , and see if i can demo them somewhere.


----------



## gLer

maellen said:


> Currawong review is up



@Currawong absolutely nailed that review! Well worth a watch, and matches my findings almost to a tee.


----------



## gLer

Tostitostelli said:


> Thank you very much for your detailed reply gLer! it has certainly cleared some things up for me  . Im still pretty much 50/50 on them tho, so ill take your advice , and see if i can demo them somewhere.


Only a pleasure. I suggest you watch @Currawong's review linked above, as he goes into some detail about the difference between Delta Sigma and R2R ladder dac sound.


----------



## alphanumerix1 (Sep 10, 2018)

I own a nfb1 amp would it make more sense to sell that and get a r28 or just get a r1 and have a huge stack. Would that outperform the r28 with individual power supplies etc etc


----------



## Heavyboxer

alphanumerix1 said:


> I own a nfb1 amp would it make more sense to get sell that and get a r28 or just get a r1 and have a huge stack. Would that outperform the r28 with individual power supplies etc etc



Note that the R28 is huge by itself. It's more a question of it you want to stack higher or wider.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Heavyboxer said:


> Note that the R28 is huge by itself. It's more a question of it you want to stack higher or wider.



Stacking aside can i expect the same or slighty better performance?


----------



## Currawong

I just had a thought that the answer to deciding between getting the separate components and the R28 is whether or not you'd use ACSS (I assume yes if getting the stack) and whether you'd want to use other outputs of the DAC at the same time. I forgot to check if the R28 can output via ACSS and XLR at the same time. The R2R 7 could not (so I assume the R1 can't either) but the R28 is a DAC/amp.


----------



## alphanumerix1 (Sep 10, 2018)

Currawong said:


> I just had a thought that the answer to deciding between getting the separate components and the R28 is whether or not you'd use ACSS (I assume yes if getting the stack) and whether you'd want to use other outputs of the DAC at the same time. I forgot to check if the R28 can output via ACSS and XLR at the same time. The R2R 7 could not (so I assume the R1 can't either) but the R28 is a DAC/amp.



Good point, but from a financial train of thought it would make sense just to purchase the r1 I guess.  

I'd be interested if you can use multiple outputs though.


----------



## gLer

alphanumerix1 said:


> Good point, but from a financial train of thought it would make sense just to purchase the r1 I guess.
> 
> I'd be interested if you can use multiple outputs though.


In terms of sound quality I'd say you'd be very hard pressed to notice a difference between the stack and the R-28. From a logistical point of view, you'll need ACSS cables, probably two decent power cords instead of one, but then have a slightly larger selection of inputs/outputs. Also the R-28 has true low/high gain while the NFB-1 does not, if that makes a difference to you. Of course the R-1 has selectable NOS/OS modes from the front panel, which is an advantage over the R-28's jumper method.

Financially, yes, it probably makes sense to just get the R-1, especially if you're happy with the NFB-1, and you're safe in the knowledge you're not sacrificing any SQ either way.


----------



## avsmusic1

Apologies if this has been covered but wouldn’t another potential benefit of the split units be that you wouldn’t need to have the amp on all the time to thermally stabilize the R2R?


----------



## FredA

avsmusic1 said:


> Apologies if this has been covered but wouldn’t another potential benefit of the split units be that you wouldn’t need to have the amp on all the time to thermally stabilize the R2R?


Yes. I suppose so. Another one: you can sell the units separately if needed.


----------



## sumpao

I notice that there is so much model coming out this year.

Audio GD have done a lot of research then


----------



## FredA

sumpao said:


> I notice that there is so much model coming out this year.
> 
> Audio GD have done a lot of research then


Another combo came out yesterday: the d-27. Great value for someone looking for a sabre dac.


----------



## alphanumerix1

FredA said:


> Another combo came out yesterday: the d-27. Great value for someone looking for a sabre dac.



16w at 25ohm? wowee


----------



## gLer

alphanumerix1 said:


> 16w at 25ohm? wowee


Looks like a D-77 married to a Master 9 amp. Interesting. I’m yet to read any reviews of a dual ESS 9038 AGD dac. Hopefully this is what @Currawong was hinting at when he said he needs space on his desk


----------



## Astral Abyss

gLer said:


> Looks like a D-77 married to a Master 9 amp. Interesting. I’m yet to read any reviews of a dual ESS 9038 AGD dac. Hopefully this is what @Currawong was hinting at when he said he needs space on his desk



I have a D-77 and I can tell you that it's amazing.  Clarity and instrument separation are way above and beyond what I was expecting.  No regrets here, although I almost wish I had waited and got a D-27 instead of the D-77/NFB-1AMP combo.  I do prefer separate components though, and I wasn't totally sure I was going to like the dual 9038 as much as I do.


----------



## alota

Astral Abyss said:


> I have a D-77 and I can tell you that it's amazing.  Clarity and instrument separation are way above and beyond what I was expecting.  No regrets here, although I almost wish I had waited and got a D-27 instead of the D-77/NFB-1AMP combo.  I do prefer separate components though, and I wasn't totally sure I was going to like the dual 9038 as much as I do.


contrary to many people, i like the sound of sabre. i´m excited with this new d-27. so d-77 sounds good?


----------



## wietschebehr

Astral Abyss said:


> I have a D-77 and I can tell you that it's amazing.  Clarity and instrument separation are way above and beyond what I was expecting.  No regrets here, although I almost wish I had waited and got a D-27 instead of the D-77/NFB-1AMP combo.  I do prefer separate components though, and I wasn't totally sure I was going to like the dual 9038 as much as I do.



Hi! Have you or anyone else compared the D77 or any of the dual 9038 Sabre DACs to any of the R2R dacs? I would like an objective and preferably unbiased opinion... 

The late 9038 sounds great to me compared to previous versions of the chip. I am torn between the D77 and R1 to pair with my NFB1. Previously I was set on the R1. But after hearing a good single 9038 implementation my expectations were blown out of the water.


----------



## Currawong

gLer said:


> Looks like a D-77 married to a Master 9 amp. Interesting. I’m yet to read any reviews of a dual ESS 9038 AGD dac. Hopefully this is what @Currawong was hinting at when he said he needs space on his desk



No. I didn't know about this at all. The space was for Stax.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> No. I didn't know about this at all. The space was for Stax.


Ah, so you’re downgrading then @Currawong  Look forward to that one. I have a love hate relationship with Stax.


----------



## NucRad

Well I just picked up a R-28 off Audiogon for the Audeze LCD-X I recently acquired.  Should have it in a few days since it is already in USA so I’ll post some impressions soon.

I currently have a Corda Symphony so hoping the ladder DAC will be a nice upgrade over the old Wolfram chip implementation.


----------



## NucRad

vica1 said:


> I do not will sell it
> Componetns(cable, connectors, push buttons, plexiglass cut out with laser) cost about 65€ and 5 hours of my work



Count me in for one if you change your mind!


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Looks like a D-77 married to a Master 9 amp. Interesting. I’m yet to read any reviews of a dual ESS 9038 AGD dac. Hopefully this is what @Currawong was hinting at when he said he needs space on his desk


This is the sabre equivalent to the r8 but with headphone amp as a bonus. SMD resistors are used, a lighter chassis, and and other cost-reduction is made to bring a value offer that should be pretty close to the nfb7.77/master-9 stack.


----------



## VintageFlanker (Sep 18, 2018)

Hey there,

@Currawong (or anyone): thumb up for your video review. In addition, what would you say about R-28 unbalanced outputs? (Both jack 6,3 and RCA line out) Thanks.

Asking this as I only have unbalanced headphones and only RCA inputs for my stereo integrated amp.


----------



## alphanumerix1

FredA said:


> This is the sabre equivalent to the r8 but with headphone amp as a bonus. SMD resistors are used, a lighter chassis, and and other cost-reduction is made to bring a value offer that should be pretty close to the nfb7.77/master-9 stack.



This is interesting sounds like a real winner.


----------



## FredA

alphanumerix1 said:


> This is interesting sounds like a real winner.


Yes. If you want a very neutral sound with tons of power to drive pretty much anything. You can have it with a pair of 9038 dac chips for 1600$ or so. No review or impressions yet.


----------



## alphanumerix1

FredA said:


> Yes. If you want a very neutral sound with tons of power to drive pretty much anything. You can have it with a pair of 9038 dac chips for 1600$ or so. No review or impressions yet.



As good as that sounds I'd like a r2r variant. R28 type unit but with master 9 amp.


----------



## gLer

alphanumerix1 said:


> As good as that sounds I'd like a r2r variant. R28 type unit but with master 9 amp.


Imagine that, a Master-R. It would be the last word in all-in-ones...


----------



## FredA (Sep 18, 2018)

gLer said:


> Imagine that, a Master-R. It would be the last word in all-in-ones...


Not enough room in the chassis for the relay volume control boards. You have to go for a r-8/master-9 stack to keep the price reasonable. Still a great bargain.


----------



## alphanumerix1

FredA said:


> Not enough room in the chassis for the relay volume control boards. You have to go for a r-8/master-9 stack to keep the price reasonable. Still a great bargain.



Make room


----------



## Currawong

VintageFlanker said:


> Hey there,
> 
> @Currawong (or anyone): thumb up for your video review. In addition, what would you say about R-28 unbalanced outputs? (Both jack 6,3 and RCA line out) Thanks.
> 
> Asking this as I only have unbalanced headphones and only RCA inputs for my stereo integrated amp.



I'd say don't buy a balanced component if you aren't going to use the balanced outputs.


----------



## FredA

alphanumerix1 said:


> Make room


Maybe a chassis with increased height... Tough one.


----------



## gLer

Currawong said:


> I'd say don't buy a balanced component if you aren't going to use the balanced outputs.


+1


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Maybe a chassis with increased height... Tough one.


I’d prefer increased height to increased width. The Master chassis is already too big for my liking. An R-28 chassis with more height would be far better.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> I’d prefer increased height to increased width. The Master chassis is already too big for my liking. An R-28 chassis with more height would be far better.


For practicality, you are right. But as far as fitting the hw in, the overall dimensions must be greater than those of the r8. I don't think we will see such a combo unless Kingwa reduces the size of the volume control board. I am not sure if it would be a good thing. I prefer good old, and big,  designs.


----------



## WNBC

R-28 arrived yesterday.  12 days from purchase to delivery.  

I need to completely go through this thread to see which headphones people prefer with the onboard amp.  If there is no real pickiness to the amp then I'm thinking Aeon Flow Open, Focal Clear or an old favorite, HD800S. 

As a previous Spring DAC (Lvl 1, 3) owner I wanted to return to R2R DACs, but instead of another Spring, I wanted to try AudioGD since I've never owned any of their products.  I liked the idea of an all-in-one R2R unit as well.  In the process of a man cave cleanup but hoping to start the burn-in/listening process by the weekend.

Based on some quick reading in this thread I don't get the sense that I2S input is an absolute must for best performance.  Taking it slow, but I can always add some type of SU-1 or X-SPDIF-2 in the future.  Both of those were kind of mandatory on the Spring DAC for best performance.  Not starting a Spring vs R-28 war .  There is plenty of room for good DACs from multiple companies.


----------



## sumpao

I now using  R-28 for 1 months up now I quite impress for what they can do.

Mostly I use it on Optical due to I play game from my ps4.

The sound quality from USB is far better than optical.

I want to use SPDIF but my TV not support it.

Did you think HDMI input will be more detail than optical?


----------



## Heavyboxer

R-28 continuous burn in for 14 days (business trip, left the unit on). It sound wonderful powering my LCD-2, but after 2 weeks, it's amazing!
It is now also a preamp for my 1 day old dynaudio lyd 7 and the R-28 sounds just as good on studio monitors. Hope burn in on the monitors will improve things.


 

Now to find a matching subwoofer.. and figure out how to get the R-28 to output to sub. Anyone knows how with the R-28?


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> R-28 continuous burn in for 14 days (business trip, left the unit on). It sound wonderful powering my LCD-2, but after 2 weeks, it's amazing!
> It is now also a preamp for my 1 day old dynaudio lyd 7 and the R-28 sounds just as good on studio monitors. Hope burn in on the monitors will improve things.
> 
> 
> ...


Dynaudio makes the 9s subwoofer in their pro line that does in line hi pass and low pass filtering. This will do what you want. The connection is a little different than you are thinking though.

R-28 -> 9s -> lyd 7


----------



## Heavyboxer

jerick70 said:


> Dynaudio makes the 9s subwoofer in their pro line that does in line hi pass and low pass filtering. This will do what you want. The connection is a little different than you are thinking though.
> 
> R-28 -> 9s -> lyd 7



Thanks, I was looking into it when I researched the LYD 7... but it seemed awful expensive for just a subwoofer. I have a couple cheap HT subs lying around that I might try.

Coming back to the R28, I found that the rear preamp output is not selectable.
i.e. all output jacks on the rear of the R28 output music at the same time..be it XLR, or RCA's (I opted to change ACSS to RCA so have 2 sets).


----------



## jerick70

Heavyboxer said:


> Thanks, I was looking into it when I researched the LYD 7... but it seemed awful expensive for just a subwoofer. I have a couple cheap HT subs lying around that I might try.
> 
> Coming back to the R28, I found that the rear preamp output is not selectable.
> i.e. all output jacks on the rear of the R28 output music at the same time..be it XLR, or RCA's (I opted to change ACSS to RCA so have 2 sets).


If you already have a subwoofer it makes it that much easier.  There are 2 ways you can set up your subs. One, use the high level inputs on the subs, if your subs have them. This is my preferred method. You are going to get a much more consistent sound which equates to a better sounding system as a whole. Two, use RCA y-splitters off of ONE of the preamp outputs.

I wouldn't use the second preamp output in a run to your sub. You will have issues with crossing the frequencies over and have over run of frequencies which will make your setup sound bad. One other thing to think about with using two seperate preouts, you can overload your preamp section depending on the input impedance of your subs.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I wonder how the R-28 / R-1 / R2R 2 would compare to the Schiit Gugnir Multibit.  My early Gumby was pretty fantastic – I enjoyed it nearly as much as my early Yggdrasil.  I cannot yet afford the R2R 7HE, and I'm very close to ordering an R-28.  It looks to be a tremendous value.  On the other hand, the R-8 isn't all that much more dough, and I could probably sort out a good-enough-for-now preamp and headphone amp situation in the short-term if I went with the R-8.  On other hand, if I knew that the Audio-gd DA-8-based DACs were as "good" (obviously personal preferences play a huge role here) as the Gumby, I think I would be plenty satisfied for the time being.


----------



## jerick70

Turdski said:


> I wonder how the R-28 / R-1 / R2R 2 would compare to the Schiit Gugnir Multibit.  My early Gumby was pretty fantastic – I enjoyed it nearly as much as my early Yggdrasil.  I cannot yet afford the R2R 7HE, and I'm very close to ordering an R-28.  It looks to be a tremendous value.  On the other hand, the R-8 isn't all that much more dough, and I could probably sort out a good-enough-for-now preamp and headphone amp situation in the short-term if I went with the R-8.  On other hand, if I knew that the Audio-gd DA-8-based DACs were as "good" (obviously personal preferences play a huge role here) as the Gumby, I think I would be plenty satisfied for the time being.


The R-28 sounds fantastic.  I was blown away when I got mine.  I'm coming from some expensive DACs too.  I had to let it sit turned on for a while to get the full "experience".  I've not heard the gumby so can't compare.  Two things to think about with the R-28 vs Gumby is you get native DSD and I2S with the R-28 and not so much with the Gumby.  That's becoming a bigger and bigger selling point for a lot of people.


----------



## ToddRaymond

@jerick70 Thanks for offering your thoughts! 

May I ask what other DACs you’ve had in your possession?  Also, are you saying you leave yours switched on all the time?  I would likely do the same.  Although, I get the impression that it’s not _as _necessary to leave Audio-gd DACs on all the time as it is for Schiit’s multibit DACs.

Have you compared the SPDIF coax in (when using something like an Eitr) versus the I2S in?  And finally, what gear are you using to deliver said I2S signal?  Thanks!

It seems like a bargain, considering you’re ostensibly* getting a fairly solid headphone amp and preamp for just a couple hundred bucks more than the cost of the R1 or R2R 2.

(*I have not heard the NFB-1 or C-2.)


----------



## jerick70 (Sep 27, 2018)

Turdski said:


> @jerick70 Thanks for offering your thoughts!
> 
> May I ask what other DACs you’ve had in your possession?  Also, are you saying you leave yours switched on all the time?  I would likely do the same.  Although, I get the impression that it’s not _as _necessary to leave Audio-gd DACs on all the time as it is for Schiit’s multibit DACs.
> 
> ...


Hey, no problem.

Here are the DACs I have now... iFi IDSD Micro BL, Violectric tenor XMOS board in V281, RME ADI2 Pro, Matrix XSabre Pro, iFi xDSD, iBasso DX200 Ti. I've also owned many other R2R and DS DACs.

I've only compared USB to I2S.  I use a Matrix X-SPDIF2 to convert from USB to I2S.  I wouldn't say that USB or I2S are superior on the R-28, they do sound different though.  USB has a little bit more weight to the sound, and I2S through the Matrix is a little leaner.

I have to say that the R-28 is right up there with my previous best DAC the X-Sabre Pro.  I haven't used the X-Sabre Pro regularly since I purchased the R-28.


----------



## fon55 (Oct 7, 2018)

M
I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years


----------



## FredA (Oct 7, 2018)

It most certainly will. Direct sunlight all day long will accelerate this phenomenon. New panels can be ordered from audio-gd however. I hope they fix this issue at some point. My 2014 master-1 is still black but with a slight shift towards orange. It is moderately exposed to sunlight.


----------



## Heavyboxer

fon55 said:


> M
> I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years



Whoa, talk about discoloration! Lucky mine is in a corner where the sun has no chance.


----------



## jerick70

fon55 said:


> M
> I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years


Invest in a cover for the R-28.  Problem solved. It would be a tragedy to not include an R-28 in your audio chain.


----------



## gLer

fon55 said:


> M
> I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years


You really should keep any and all electronics out of direct sunlight.


----------



## peterzzz (Oct 7, 2018)

fon55 said:


> M
> I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years


Ha! My NFB28 is almost all copper these days. Good thing my R2R-1 and NFB-1 amp are in my office, which because of monitor glare and books rarely if ever gets direct sunlight. I suppose you could bring the panels to a local metal shop, but I could never care enough myself.

Edit - spelling.


----------



## fon55

gLer said:


> You really should keep any and all electronics out of direct sunlight.


branded appliances stand for me for many years and have no fading


----------



## gLer

fon55 said:


> branded appliances stand for me for many years and have no fading


It’s not so much about coloration but rather heat. Direct sun means extra heat that electronics (especially sensitive audio electronics) don’t need. Discoloration is the least of your worries.


----------



## fon55

The black lacquer is not UV-resistant and that's how it should not be


----------



## fon55

The black lacquer is not UV-resistant and that's how it should not be


----------



## jimmychan

I wonder if we could apply some sun screen lotion on the machine to slow down the discoloration.


----------



## gLer

jimmychan said:


> I wonder if we could apply some sun screen lotion on the machine to slow down the discoloration.


Guys just keep it out of the sun. It’s not rocket science


----------



## ToddRaymond

@fon55 You got the gold Zelda cartridge version!


----------



## Rayzilla

fon55 said:


> M
> I thought about buying an R28 myself, but I'm afraid that it will change color like the Precision2 repeater I have for 3 years


The colour wouldn't stop me from purchasing that from you. Only the price and shipping charges might.


----------



## fon55

I am waiting for replacement of the panel for several months ... and looking forward to not the amplifier game sensational I'm not going to sell it


----------



## Dnguyen926 (Oct 15, 2018)

I recently got an R28 from a trade and was about to open it up but realize I didn't have any jumpers. Will these work?

https://www.frys.com/product/1350526

Wait or is it these? They seem to be the only removable jumpers.


----------



## FredA (Oct 15, 2018)

Dnguyen926 said:


> I recently got an R28 from a trade and was about to open it up but realize I didn't have any jumpers. Will these work?
> 
> https://www.frys.com/product/1350526
> 
> Wait or is it these? They seem to be the only removable jumpers.


The jumpers in the picture look like they are not even on a pcb. Maybe just glued there to be passed on to you.

As for the required jumpers, the spacing is .1 inch, so approximately 2.5mm. Kingwa now ships with these (easier to push in/pull out):

https://ppeci.com/index.php/products/detail/0.1-header-strip


----------



## gLer

Hey guys, has anyone received the new (not sure if it’s beta) firmware from Kingwa? Not talking about the recently released V2 smooth/accurate, this is new FW sent overnight with a simple note that says ‘improved NOS modes’. If anyone tries it out pls post feedback here.


----------



## Dnguyen926 (Dec 12, 2018)

FredA said:


> The jumpers in the picture look like they are not even on a pcb. Maybe just glued there to be passed on to you.
> 
> As for the required jumpers, the spacing is .1 inch, so approximately 2.5mm. Kingwa now ships with these (easier to push in/pull out):
> 
> https://ppeci.com/index.php/products/detail/0.1-header-strip



Thank you! Went out and bought my own set of jumpers since it did not come in the box.. then the wrong usb blaster arrived


----------



## FredA

Dnguyen926 said:


> Thank you! Went out and bought my own set of jumpers since it did not come in the box.. ordered a USB blaster from Ebay because NOS 3 and USB had horrible distortion.. THEN the wrong usb blaster arrived... TBH this will probably be the first and last Audio Gd product I own.
> 
> If anyone is near CA 92844 and has a USB blaster from Audio Gd may I borrow it?


Be patient. It will be worth it.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Be patient. It will be worth it.


I agree, it’s definitely worth it. And Kingwa keeps improving it too. He’s just released firmware v3. I wish someone would test it and let me know if it’s worth the upgrade (since v2 is so good already).


----------



## alphanumerix1

Any issue's running dsd with the r28?


----------



## gLer

alphanumerix1 said:


> Any issue's running dsd with the r28?


None whatsoever.


----------



## felix3650

Hey everyone,

Has anyone heard the Holo Audio Cyan and compared it to the R-28? They're near the same price range. I mean by sound character rather than features.


----------



## jerick70

felix3650 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Has anyone heard the Holo Audio Cyan and compared it to the R-28? They're near the same price range. I mean by sound character rather than features.


I've not heard the Cyan  but I passed it up because of some limitations and extra the ~$400 cost to add DSD. The big issue with the Cyan is you can't use the built in headphone amp when listening to DSD.  So you will end up buying an external amp which will send the cost even higher. That's a huge pita in my eyes.


----------



## felix3650

jerick70 said:


> I've not heard the Cyan  but I passed it up because of some limitations and extra the ~$400 cost to add DSD. The big issue with the Cyan is you can't use the built in headphone amp when listening to DSD.  So you will end up buying an external amp which will send the cost even higher. That's a huge pita in my eyes.


Thanks!

My audio library consists mostly of 16/44 FLACs and some 24/192 vinyl rips. DSD I've heard some sample files. While sounding little bit better I don't think my HDD would be enough to hold everything so DSD decoding it's not as much of an issue. I'm most interested in pure PCM. 
The R-28 is also a bit heavier and bulkier than the Cyan and there is only 100€ difference in price on Magna Hifi (I'm in the EU).

Down the road I plan on getting a nice tube amp to use with my Auteurs but for now a R-2R combo unit will suffice


----------



## jerick70

felix3650 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> My audio library consists mostly of 16/44 FLACs and some 24/192 vinyl rips. DSD I've heard some sample files. While sounding little bit better I don't think my HDD would be enough to hold everything so DSD decoding it's not as much of an issue. I'm most interested in pure PCM.
> The R-28 is also a bit heavier and bulkier than the Cyan and there is only 100€ difference in price on Magna Hifi (I'm in the EU).
> ...


Good luck with whatever you decide.  If it was me I would go with the R-28 for the cost and features.  If you are set on Holo DACs I would get the Spring level 1 or level 2.  I just can't see buying a neutered unit like the Cyan, especially when you are paying that much.


----------



## alphanumerix1

im interesting in the cyan aswell the pcm with headphone out version not sure what ill do as i like the form form factor better on that vs the r28


----------



## Heavyboxer

alphanumerix1 said:


> im interesting in the cyan aswell the pcm with headphone out version not sure what ill do as i like the form form factor better on that vs the r28



I must agree that the form factor of the R28 could improve, as the unit dictates how the rest of my desk layout should be.


----------



## gLer

Heavyboxer said:


> I must agree that the form factor of the R28 could improve, as the unit dictates how the rest of my desk layout should be.


I like the form factor of the R-28. It’s one of the reasons I got it - but then it doesn’t sit on my desk! (Fits perfectly on the side unit, which was made long before the R-28 was announced).


----------



## alota

@gLer you you listen focal headphones in balanced mode?thank you


----------



## gLer

alota said:


> @gLer you you listen focal headphones in balanced mode?thank you


Yes I do, only balanced. The R-28 balanced output is much better than the SE output.


----------



## alota

gLer said:


> Yes I do, only balanced. The R-28 balanced output is much better than the SE output.


Thank you. Every time i' m more decided about this amp


----------



## Rayzilla

Does anyone know Audio GD's office address? Can you buy directly from there?


----------



## alota

Rayzilla said:


> Does anyone know Audio GD's office address? Can you buy directly from there?


http://www.audio-gd.com/Ch audio-gd.htm


----------



## Jandu

There is an address somewhere on the web site. It is located in 佛山 Canton. Since, your unit requires a min. of 100 hrs burn in, you may need to contact Kingwa ahead of time anyway. Thats the case, may as well ask Kingwa what the procedures would be to pick it up in person.


----------



## Rayzilla

Jandu said:


> There is an address somewhere on the web site. It is located in 佛山 Canton. Since, your unit requires a min. of 100 hrs burn in, you may need to contact Kingwa ahead of time anyway. Thats the case, may as well ask Kingwa what the procedures would be to pick it up in person.


Thanks. Will do that soon. I have a friend living in Shenzhen that will check if they have a showroom in the area or not.


----------



## alota

Rayzilla said:


> Thanks. Will do that soon. I have a friend living in Shenzhen that will check if they have a showroom in the area or not.


from my memory and if i´m right, you have possibility to visit and buy in the headquarter. but i read this in the times of phoenix amplifier. best solution: write to king wa


----------



## jimmychan

Rayzilla said:


> Thanks. Will do that soon. I have a friend living in Shenzhen that will check if they have a showroom in the area or not.



They don't have any showroom in Shenzhen. You have to go direct to the factory which is not too far away from Shenzhen.


----------



## sumpao

I buy R28 from start what is situation on Firmware right now it so confuse for me


----------



## Heavyboxer

sumpao said:


> I buy R28 from start what is situation on Firmware right now it so confuse for me



Think you need a USB blaster and Kingwa to send you an updated firmware. I have yet to play with jumpers cause I am already satisfied with what I hear.


----------



## ctaxxxx

gLer said:


> Yes I do, only balanced. The R-28 balanced output is much better than the SE output.


What's the volume level you have for the Focals? I've been considering the SE R2R stack lately, since my headphones are very easy to drive and I've never gone past 50% low gain on the R2R 11. I don't think I need all the power that balanced gives, but then again, I love going balanced from my DAP.


----------



## gLer

ctaxxxx said:


> What's the volume level you have for the Focals? I've been considering the SE R2R stack lately, since my headphones are very easy to drive and I've never gone past 50% low gain on the R2R 11. I don't think I need all the power that balanced gives, but then again, I love going balanced from my DAP.


I normally listen on 35-40 (out of 99) on high gain. The R-28 has an exponential volume scale, so 35-40 is less than 5% power! At that level it’s fairly loud for most people, though not excessive. Sometimes I’ll tirn older high dynamic recordings up to 50, but no higher. That’s still less than 10% power. I find Audio-gd amps sound better in high gain, and it’s not about having more power but how much control and transparency the amp has over the likes of the R2R/NFB-11. It’s also more resolving.


----------



## thebkt

ctaxxxx said:


> What's the volume level you have for the Focals? I've been considering the SE R2R stack lately, since my headphones are very easy to drive and I've never gone past 50% low gain on the R2R 11. I don't think I need all the power that balanced gives, but then again, I love going balanced from my DAP.


On my NFB-1 I generally don't go ever go over 25 on low gain with my Clears.  I guess I listen at lower volume than some?  My LCD is usually at about 17-25 on low (SE, waiting on a balanced cable), and my Ether C's are about 20-30 on high gain.


----------



## gLer

thebkt said:


> I guess I listen at lower volume than some?


You can say that again! At those levels I wouldn’t be able to hear much, if anything. It’s like buying a Ferrari and leaving it in first gear


----------



## JaMo (Nov 2, 2018)

So,
Some week or two ago I got a new version of firmware for the R-28 from Kingwa for testing. The file was named "R28v3firmware.rar" and contained two files with the names V3A (accurate) and V3S (smooth).

I have been running my R-28  on V2S in OSx8 mode since I got it. Earlier I have felt the NOS-modes to be a bit muddy in the V2 in my setup. When Kingwa sent me the V3 fws he mentioned that he had worked on the NOS modes in particular. I usually rush into doing these kind of testings but this time I had to wait for time without distractions. When I first got the files I did an initial try to flash on the V3 fw's and I thought it sounded thin and without "much body".... But this try was interrupted and I had to pause to have a better testsituation later on.

There are we now.

I have flashed the versions 3A, 3S and 2S forth and back many times and been llstening on a few reference tracks where one of them is "Fend for Yourself" by The Pineapple Thiefs (Flac 16-44.1). It is a very good track for this testing. Try it.

Well, as I said my preferences has been OS modes and most in x8 and I usually listen through my speaker rig via Master 1 -> Master 2's/3 -> Quad ESL + Gradient subs. Not so often in headphones. So I had to adjust my listening to both NOS and more with headphones for this testing.
Headphones used are HE-6 and HE-500, direct connected to the R-28. I have the R-28 without upgraded volume boards but it can deliver power enough to let the HE-6 to sing at a sufficient level. If I only had the HE-6 or similar I should get the +6dB Volume board-upgrade.                       

I had to limit my testing a bit so I focused on NOS3 which I find the absolut best of them.
I started by putting a jumper into S1 to get the NOS3 setting on the present V2S fw. Nice but not the definitions I get with the OS(x8). I then flashed on the V3A (still NOS3) and was immediatly struck by its crisp clear picture, tons of microdetails, dynamics. I just couldn't believe it. I flashed back to V2S just to get the feeling back from "where I started"...Nice but "a bit choked" was the word I can say. Then I tried the V3S (still NOS3) and it is a clear step up from the V2S.The V3S has all the good things from V3A, just a notch softer. After many flashings forth and back between the V2, V3A and V3S I find the V3A as a favorite. It is as good that it can compete with the OS8. In fact, a few steps better in some areas than the OSx8....

I have to admit that the new V3A in NOS3 ended up to be my new favourite.. in total(!). Kingwa has clearly been working hard on studying in this digital processing area and with these V3 fws's he has been successful in achieving an even more refined timing. Pushing the limits further to higher grounds. The whole scenarie/room is well defined and the dynamics are excellent. Wow! Fantastic work! I admire Kingwa for many things and I am greatful to be a part of this journey.

I will leave my R-28 on the V3A NOS 3 mode and I strongly recommend You, present and new R-28 owners to get Your units ugraded to the V3 fw. It turns them to a higher performing piece of gear.

Of course, there are alot more to explore in these new firmwares. I will do that, but first I want to get more familiar with my "new R28" (I am still in a light chock of its performance)


A very good thing in all this is the fact that Kingwa continues to learn in the subject and he refines the firmwares in general, for all the gears.....


Thank You.

/Jan


----------



## gLer

Hi Jan

Thanks for your impressions above. I have also been using and testing the v3 fw for a week or so, but only with headphones (Elex and LCD-3). 

Initially I found v3 S NOS a touch too ‘diffuse’, although it was only a brief listen. Switching to v3 Accurate immediately brought things into focus with superb microdetails. 

So I thought I’d found my ideal sound...except I started finding the Accurate sound just *too* accurate. For example, the high frequency guitar plucks in Nils Lofgren’s superbly mastered live version of ‘Keith Don’t Go’ was just over the line of ‘too sharp’ and actually detracted from the music.

So yesterday I switched back to my previous favourite (v2 Smooth NOS 3) and the gorgeously organic R2R sound was back with plenty of detail. I must say though that I’ve recently added an Ideon 3R Renaissance reclocker to my chain, which has ramped uo the detail level and dropped the noise floor by at least 20-25% over naked usb direct to dac.

All that said, I’ll give NOS 3 v3 Smooth another go, but with headphones at least, v3 NOS 3 Accurate was just pushing my treble sensitivity over the edge, and OS 8x would likely be even worse.

And of course, with all that said, we’re still talking class leading sound here. It’s incredible how versatile the R-28 can be, and how resolving it is when fed the proper signal!


----------



## FredA

Darn, i have got to give v3 a try on the r-7....


----------



## gLer

So I had a chance to spend some proper time going back and forth between fw v2 and v3 smooth (NOS 3), and ultimately decided to stay with v2. 

V3 seems to smooth out the sound a tad too much. Easiest way to hear it is in the ‘bite’ of piano keys. V3 makes pianos sound more closed in, not as sharp, more laid back and ‘heavy’. Same for the edge on female vocals. V2 may seem a smidge less refined/smooth by comparison but also more natural and earthy. 

The LCD was just too warm and thick with v3. YMMV but just thought I’d share that here. Didn’t test any other NOS or OS modes, and have already shared my impressions of the accurate fw above.


----------



## sumpao

I finaly upgrade to V3A seem so hard at first when I put usb to dac.
Which is a tiny area there


----------



## JaMo

gLer said:


> So I had a chance to spend some proper time going back and forth between fw v2 and v3 smooth (NOS 3), and ultimately decided to stay with v2.
> 
> V3 seems to smooth out the sound a tad too much. Easiest way to hear it is in the ‘bite’ of piano keys. V3 makes pianos sound more closed in, not as sharp, more laid back and ‘heavy’. Same for the edge on female vocals. V2 may seem a smidge less refined/smooth by comparison but also more natural and earthy.
> 
> The LCD was just too warm and thick with v3. YMMV but just thought I’d share that here. Didn’t test any other NOS or OS modes, and have already shared my impressions of the accurate fw above.



@gLer: You must give the V3A a chance in NOS 3... before final verdicts.

/Jan


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> @gLer: You must give the V3A a chance in NOS 3... before final verdicts.
> 
> /Jan


+1


----------



## gLer (Nov 4, 2018)

JaMo said:


> @gLer: You must give the V3A a chance in NOS 3... before final verdicts.
> 
> /Jan


Gents, I actually switched to accurate fw 3 when I first heard how over-smooth the smooth version was. Problem is, while accurate was certainly much sharper and more detailed, with super-resolving headphones like the Elex it was actually too sharp, if that makes sense. Vocals - especially some female vocals (Sarah Maclachlan ‘Fallen’ unplugged comes to mind) sounded ever so thin and edgy. It’s like a sharpening filter applied to a portrait photo that brings out too many pores in the skin - great if you’re after every single detail, but it leaves nothing to the imagination and borders on harsh. This probably is far less of an issue with speakers that diffuse the sound around the room, but with headphones up close and personal, it just occasionally became fatiguing. Some of Nils Lofgren’s guitar work in Acoustic Live - a superbly mastered recording - became positively razor sharp (and not in a good way) with accurate fw. Switching back to smooth v2 didn’t make all the details go away, but they just fell back a little and made more sense musically.

It’s great that Kingwa continues to give us options to tweak the sound of the R-28, but it doesn’t mean that newer is always better.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Gents, I actually switched to accurate fw 3 when I first heard how over-smooth the smooth version was. Problem is, while accurate was certainly much sharper and more detailed, with super-resolving headphones like the Elex it was actually too sharp, if that makes sense. Vocals - especially some female vocals (Sarah Maclachlan ‘Fallen’ unplugged comes to mind) sounded ever so thin and edgy. It’s like a sharpening filter applied to a portrait photo that brings out too many pores in the skin - great if you’re after every single detail, but it leaves nothing to the imagination and borders on harsh. This probably is far less of an issue with speakers that diffuse the sound around the room, but with headphones up close and personal, it just occasionally became fatiguing. Some of Nils Lofgren’s guitar work in Acoustic Live - a superbly mastered recording - became positively razor sharp (and not in a good way) with accurate fw. Switching back to smooth v2 didn’t make all the details go away, but they just fell back a little and made more sense musically.
> 
> It’s great that Kingwa continues to give us options to tweak the sound of the R-28, but it doesn’t mean that newer is always better.


Whatever works. Synergy is key.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Gents, I actually switched to accurate fw 3 when I first heard how over-smooth the smooth version was. Problem is, while accurate was certainly much sharper and more detailed, with super-resolving headphones like the Elex it was actually too sharp, if that makes sense. Vocals - especially some female vocals (Sarah Maclachlan ‘Fallen’ unplugged comes to mind) sounded ever so thin and edgy. It’s like a sharpening filter applied to a portrait photo that brings out too many pores in the skin - great if you’re after every single detail, but it leaves nothing to the imagination and borders on harsh. This probably is far less of an issue with speakers that diffuse the sound around the room, but with headphones up close and personal, it just occasionally became fatiguing. Some of Nils Lofgren’s guitar work in Acoustic Live - a superbly mastered recording - became positively razor sharp (and not in a good way) with accurate fw. Switching back to smooth v2 didn’t make all the details go away, but they just fell back a little and made more sense musically.
> 
> It’s great that Kingwa continues to give us options to tweak the sound of the R-28, but it doesn’t mean that newer is always better.



My only option now is version 3 and V3A detail is very goods than first version.

I will give it a try first and adapt to it.

too sharp I never try NOS mode before now I think I in oversampling x8

which I quite ok with it.

man this products is goods


----------



## FredA

Another good ootion is v3 accurate with os8 and dithering on. Better attacks than nos3 but still very smooth.


----------



## gLer

Slightly OT but here’s a good article that explains why I personally prefer to use NOS over OS:

https://kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/

Read the part about pre/post ringing (echo) of OS technology - that’s exactly what I hear, especially in vocals. That unnantural ‘echo’ is solved with NOS (just solved a bit too well with NOS smooth v3). To my ears OS 8x is hyper-detailed, but at the cost of some artefacts and digital ‘echo’.


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> Another good option is v3 accurate with os8 and dithering on. Better attacks than nos3 but still very smooth.



Yes i would agree from V1 to V3A it kind of better in many way.


----------



## sumpao (Nov 5, 2018)

gLer said:


> Slightly OT but here’s a good article that explains why I personally prefer to use NOS over OS:
> 
> https://kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/
> 
> Read the part about pre/post ringing (echo) of OS technology - that’s exactly what I hear, especially in vocals. That unnantural ‘echo’ is solved with NOS (just solved a bit too well with NOS smooth v3). To my ears OS 8x is hyper-detailed, but at the cost of some artefacts and digital ‘echo’.



Oh you article let me want to try NOS MODE 3

If I want to try NOS MODE correct me if I am wrong.
I have to put jumper on S1 and S4

And another question is what is S3 PLL setting

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN_Use.htm


----------



## FredA

sumpao said:


> Oh you article let me want to try NOS MODE 3
> 
> If I want to try NOS MODE correct me if I am wrong.
> I have to put jumper on S1 and S4
> ...


You just need a jumper on s1. S3 will turn on the dsp pll. It has minimal effect on sound in my experience and it sounds better without,


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> Slightly OT but here’s a good article that explains why I personally prefer to use NOS over OS:
> 
> https://kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/
> 
> Read the part about pre/post ringing (echo) of OS technology - that’s exactly what I hear, especially in vocals. That unnantural ‘echo’ is solved with NOS (just solved a bit too well with NOS smooth v3). To my ears OS 8x is hyper-detailed, but at the cost of some artefacts and digital ‘echo’.


Ringing is sort of a natural phenomenon caused by limited bandwith. But normally, you only have post-ringing. That being said, the ringing introduced by a digital filter will not necesarilly sound natural, nor the filter in general. Filtering the signal is trying to find missing high frequencies to improve dynamics. It is a real chanllenge to create a filter that sounds natural.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Ringing is sort of a natural phenomenon caused by limited bandwith. But normally, you only have post-ringing. That being said, the ringing introduced by a digital filter will not necesarilly sound natural, nor the filter in general. Filtering the signal is trying to find missing high frequencies to improve dynamics. It is a real chanllenge to create a filter that sounds natural.


Which is exactly why I prefer NOS R2R and why I chose the R-28


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> You just need a jumper on s1. S3 will turn on the dsp pll. It has minimal effect on sound in my experience and it sounds better without,


What's the difference between a jumper on S1 and a jumper on S1 and S4? Both say NOS 3 in the manual.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> What's the difference between a jumper on S1 and a jumper on S1 and S4? Both say NOS 3 in the manual.



Should be the exact same thing.


----------



## sumpao

Hi guy I have some problem here.

I have PC (Window8) and note book to play this R-28 

While PC (Window10) sound is quite perfect but 

My note book have a hiss jit sound if I play from it.

I try to reinstall the Amanero 384 but the problem is still there.

So right now I only play with my PC.

Anyway different source effect the sound


----------



## 4mayday

Hi, everyone,

Please, give me a link to 'Instruction Manual' for firmware upgrade on R-28. 
Thank you in advance!


----------



## alota

4mayday said:


> Hi, everyone,
> 
> Please, give me a link to 'Instruction Manual' for firmware upgrade on R-28.
> Thank you in advance!


there was a page but now I can not find it
the only that i´ve found is https://www.magnahifi.com/fr/webshop/product/audio-gd-dsp-fpga-upd


----------



## FredA

This one is old but i rely on it when doing the updates:

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/NOS/NOS7/DSPupdataEN.htm


----------



## Viper2005

I've added the Master 9 to my setup, as I was feeling that the amp on the R28 was a touch flat sounding.
Indeed, the Master 9 ups the sound a few notches: more spacious, more dynamic and everything just has more 'oomph' to it!
(R28 in V2 smooth NOS2 mode, connected via ACSS cable to the Master 9)


----------



## FredA

Viper2005 said:


> I've added the Master 9 to my setup, as I was feeling that the amp on the R28 was a touch flat sounding.
> Indeed, the Master 9 ups the sound a few notches: more spacious, more dynamic and everything just has more 'oomph' to it!
> (R28 in V2 smooth NOS2 mode, connected via ACSS cable to the Master 9)


Nice. I wish i had a M9. Worth every penny IMO.


----------



## FredA (Nov 10, 2018)

A combination that works for me,  best so far with v3 accurate is the os4 mode, no dithering or any other option. Very organic with laid back but very accurate highs  A real treat. The sound i have been looking for all this time. Slightly tubby, as i like and still very accurate. Give it a try.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Nov 14, 2018)

Hello folks,

I don't have the R-28, but I have a very close relative - AudioGD's R2R-R1 and NFB1-AMP, linked via ACSS. My R1 has the upgraded TXCO clocks option.

Just dropping in to say that I love NOS Mode 1 with my Elex, and NOS Mode 3 with more laid back headphones like the LCD2C.  The HD6xx works fine with both my preferred NOS settings.

I upgraded to this combo a few months after starting out with the R2R-11.  I have listened to the HE-9 at AGD's distributor here in Malaysia... and I want one badly.  Now if only money would grow on trees...


----------



## sumpao

After some use of V3A  NOS3 mode I think it a very goods option for Headphone.
Sound is very smooth and detail.
But for pre amp to feed to my system I think sound is too smooth.

So I move back to OS8 . Even for headphone I prefer  V3A NOS3 more.
I do think this is depend on headphone and system.

But OS8 is in the middle I think it will not be the best smooth but will fit overall use


----------



## FredA

I am now on os8. My transport (rpi v3b+ -> wyrd -> intona -> f-1) was upgraded by adding a lps to feed the rpi. One was already used to feed the f-1. Bottom line: v3a os8 works great with it. A silent computer definitly helps getting great sound. I will repeat again what i stated earlier: usb audio is a protocol without error correction. Therefore, the more silent the computer is and hence its usb ports, the better the sound will be. This was confirmed without a doubt again tonight adding the lps and before by replacing the internal hd on a mac mini by a ssd. The sound becomes more fucused, more relaxed, more dynamic and there is more air around the instruments.


----------



## sumpao

FredA said:


> I am now on os8. My transport (rpi v3b+ -> wyrd -> intona -> f-1) was upgraded by adding a lps to feed the rpi. One was already used to feed the f-1. Bottom line: v3a os8 works great with it. A silent computer definitly helps getting great sound. I will repeat again what i stated earlier: usb audio is a protocol without error correction. Therefore, the more silent the computer is and hence its usb ports, the better the sound will be. This was confirmed without a doubt again tonight adding the lps and before by replacing the internal hd on a mac mini by a ssd. The sound becomes more fucused, more relaxed, more dynamic and there is more air around the instruments.



That explain why my laptop and PC don't sound the same.

My laptop is not so good and have a hiss jitt sound.


----------



## gLer (Nov 16, 2018)

FredA said:


> I am now on os8. My transport (rpi v3b+ -> wyrd -> intona -> f-1) was upgraded by adding a lps to feed the rpi. One was already used to feed the f-1. Bottom line: v3a os8 works great with it. A silent computer definitly helps getting great sound. I will repeat again what i stated earlier: usb audio is a protocol without error correction. Therefore, the more silent the computer is and hence its usb ports, the better the sound will be. This was confirmed without a doubt again tonight adding the lps and before by replacing the internal hd on a mac mini by a ssd. The sound becomes more fucused, more relaxed, more dynamic and there is more air around the instruments.


From my recent experience with the excellent Ideon 3R Renaissance (http://www.ideonaudio.com/index.php/products/3r-usb-renaissance) my suggestion is to NEVER connect a PC or Mac directly to your dac via USB. Doesn't matter how clean the power, unless you have a high-end dac that cleans and regenerates its own incoming USB signal, just don't do it. With the 3R in the chain, the R-28 sounds like a completely different dac - tight, focused, zero noise floor, no bloom or glare or grain (unless it's in the actual recording). @FredA if you like the sound from your RPi, yo should take the next step and get an Allo DigiOne Signature or USBridge. Both will take your RPi sound quality to the next level. The RPi 3B, good as it is, is not optimised for audio. I have a friend who specialises in the Pi, and he swears by the Allo variations. Still not convinced? Watch this video:


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> From my recent experience with the excellent Ideon 3R Renaissance (http://www.ideonaudio.com/index.php/products/3r-usb-renaissance) my suggestion is to NEVER connect a PC or Mac directly to your dac via USB. Doesn't matter how clean the power, unless you have a high-end dac that cleans and regenerates its own incoming USB signal, just don't do it. With the 3R in the chain, the R-28 sounds like a completely different dac - tight, focused, zero noise floor, no bloom or glare or grain (unless it's in the actual recording). @FredA if you like the sound from your RPi, yo should take the next step and get an Allo DigiOne Signature or USBridge. Both will take your RPi sound quality to the next level. The RPi 3B, good as it is, is not optimised for audio. I have a friend who specialises in the Pi, and he swears by the Allo variations. Still not convinced? Watch this video:



@gLer   at this price point you can get a nice steamer already.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> @gLer   at this price point you can get a nice steamer already.


I disagree. The DigiOne and USBridge are both significantly cheaper than most good streamers, and according to Darko (the guy in the video), the sound of the DigiOne Signature trumps the Auralic Aries! That's quite a statement. Of course the RPi platform is far more technical and doesn't look as good as a polished all-in-one streamer, but if you don't mid getting your hands a little dirty with the tech, I'd sooner get an Allo player than an expensive streamer. In any case the R-28 will sound better with either, as it does with a good USB cleaner if you're not interested in the streamer route.


----------



## Viper2005

gLer said:


> From my recent experience with the excellent Ideon 3R Renaissance (http://www.ideonaudio.com/index.php/products/3r-usb-renaissance) my suggestion is to NEVER connect a PC or Mac directly to your dac via USB. Doesn't matter how clean the power, unless you have a high-end dac that cleans and regenerates its own incoming USB signal, just don't do it. With the 3R in the chain, the R-28 sounds like a completely different dac - tight, focused, zero noise floor, no bloom or glare or grain (unless it's in the actual recording). @FredA if you like the sound from your RPi, yo should take the next step and get an Allo DigiOne Signature or USBridge. Both will take your RPi sound quality to the next level. The RPi 3B, good as it is, is not optimised for audio. I have a friend who specialises in the Pi, and he swears by the Allo variations. Still not convinced? Watch this video:




I agree that plugging a computer, or even an ipad directly to the DAC is not ideal.  I use a Schiit Eitr for this reason.  Although this solution would not work if you use DSD with your dac (which I don't).


----------



## gLer

Viper2005 said:


> I agree that plugging a computer, or even an ipad directly to the DAC is not ideal.  I use a Schiit Eitr for this reason.  Although this solution would not work if you use DSD with your dac (which I don't).


Yep, the Schiit Eitr is a great option. Basically does what the DigiOne does - USB/I2S to SP/DIF. A Mac/PC + Eitr is basically equivalent to a DigiOne (sound chain-wise). Which is better, I'm not sure, but I'll be testing and reviewing a DigiOne Signature and USBridge in the near future and will compare both to my Mac + 3R reclocker with the R-28.


----------



## sumpao

sumpao said:


> @gLer   at this price point you can get a nice steamer already.



It cost 850 EUR


gLer said:


> I disagree. The DigiOne and USBridge are both significantly cheaper than most good streamers, and according to Darko (the guy in the video), the sound of the DigiOne Signature trumps the Auralic Aries! That's quite a statement. Of course the RPi platform is far more technical and doesn't look as good as a polished all-in-one streamer, but if you don't mid getting your hands a little dirty with the tech, I'd sooner get an Allo player than an expensive streamer. In any case the R-28 will sound better with either, as it does with a good USB cleaner if you're not interested in the streamer route.




3R USB come with no power Supply as 300+ EUR and with POWER supply of 800+ EUR
For price reason I not sure with the 800+ investment is a good buy though
Or @gLer  you say that 3R USB alone is better than Auralic Aries! or other decent steamer.
then it would be a great investment though.


----------



## gLer (Nov 16, 2018)

sumpao said:


> It cost 850 EUR
> 3R USB come with no power Supply as 300+ EUR and with POWER supply of 800+ EUR
> For price reason I not sure with the 800+ investment is a good buy though
> Or @gLer  you say that 3R USB alone is better than Auralic Aries! or other decent steamer.
> then it would be a great investment though.


I’m taking about the DigiOne Signature, not the 3R. I haven’t tried the 3R against the DigiOne Signature yet, will do so soon. The 3R does come with a power supply (but not a linear power supply). An €800 power supply is a complete waste of money in my opinion.

The DigiOne Signature player is $315 (https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature-player.html).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I’m taking about the DigiOne Signature, not the 3R. I haven’t tried the 3R against the DigiOne Signature yet, will do so soon. The 3R does come with a power supply (but not a linear power supply). An €800 power supply is a complete waste of money in my opinion.
> 
> The DigiOne Signature player is $315 (https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature-player.html).



Even Digione need 2 power supply though.
Which I think scale up the price point.
What setup did you think value most.
What Power supply to run with this DIGIONE
Thanks


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Even Digione need 2 power supply though.
> Which I think scale up the price point.
> What setup did you think value most.
> What Power supply to run with this DIGIONE
> Thanks


The DigiOne comes with two power supplies (wall bricks). You don't NEED to get linear power supplies for it (unless you feel like spending lots of money). So $315 is the full price. I'll only be able to determine what sounds best once I've tried the DigiOne with the R-28. I haven't done so yet.


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> The DigiOne comes with two power supplies (wall bricks). You don't NEED to get linear power supplies for it (unless you feel like spending lots of money). So $315 is the full price. I'll only be able to determine what sounds best once I've tried the DigiOne with the R-28. I haven't done so yet.



I do think this is what manufacturer said about their products

The Digione Signature needs 2 PSUs to run.
The player comes with 1 x *5V 3A PSU* to feed the dirty side.
We strongly recommend you purchase the *battery pack* or use a very good power supply for the clean side.

If you want to use the Digione Signature right away, you can purchase an additional *5V PSU* from us, but we dont recommend this set up.


Due to my experience the better power supply mean better sound though
Correct me if I wrong on this.
Please kindly tell that which set up and what budget when you compare both of them and which power supply you use also


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> I do think this is what manufacturer said about their products
> 
> The Digione Signature needs 2 PSUs to run.
> The player comes with 1 x *5V 3A PSU* to feed the dirty side.
> ...


Will do. I will be using the battery pack for the clean side. The USBridge (which I'll also be testing) doesn't need a separate 'clean' power supply.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> From my recent experience with the excellent Ideon 3R Renaissance (http://www.ideonaudio.com/index.php/products/3r-usb-renaissance) my suggestion is to NEVER connect a PC or Mac directly to your dac via USB. Doesn't matter how clean the power, unless you have a high-end dac that cleans and regenerates its own incoming USB signal, just don't do it. With the 3R in the chain, the R-28 sounds like a completely different dac - tight, focused, zero noise floor, no bloom or glare or grain (unless it's in the actual recording). @FredA if you like the sound from your RPi, yo should take the next step and get an Allo DigiOne Signature or USBridge. Both will take your RPi sound quality to the next level. The RPi 3B, good as it is, is not optimised for audio. I have a friend who specialises in the Pi, and he swears by the Allo variations. Still not convinced? Watch this video:




You are probably right. But i have two usb repeaters in the chain, and don’t forget the usbridge is like a pi with a usb repeater. So the difference should not be that big. But that said, i expect allo to release a unit which will incorporate galvanic isolation, which my intona provides. At that point, i will probably switch to the usbridge. In the mean time, i confident i am close to its level of performance with my elaborated setup. 

The fact i don’t use ethernet make the usb ports quite silent in my opnion as the pi has the same chip handling both ethernet and usb. This silence has been enhanced by the lps i added last night. This is a critical aspect. In your case, you would aslo benefit to a certain extent from a silent conputer, if you don ‘t have one already. Adding a pi or sparky  (i would go with the sparky If ethernet is to be used)  to your setup, either as player, a upnp node or a roon node, should be beneficial. You would not need the usbridge as your high-end repeater plays the same role. Another possibility is to get an audiophile pci usb board from your computer if it’s a pc.


----------



## FredA (Nov 16, 2018)

I get such a quiet background now and such sweet and resolved treble. Bass is also top notch. I am looking foward to observing variation or not from day to day with the grid’s noise varying,


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> I get such a quiet background now and such sweet and resolved treble. Bass is also top notch. I am looking foward to observing variation or not from day to day with the grid’s noise varying,


Yes I get the same feeling with the 3R. Just goes to show the source is as important as the dac, if not more so, when it comes to impact on sound quality in the chain.


----------



## Heavyboxer

So all this talk about jumper settings got me curious enough take out my solder (and order some electrical bits) to make a quick test bench for DAC modes.


 

I've only tested for 30 mins, so no positive conclusion on what I like the most, but so far, the setting it is on now is what I am leaning towards (I think nos mode 2?)


----------



## FredA

Heavyboxer said:


> So all this talk about jumper settings got me curious enough take out my solder (and order some electrical bits) to make a quick test bench for DAC modes.
> 
> 
> 
> I've only tested for 30 mins, so no positive conclusion on what I like the most, but so far, the setting it is on now is what I am leaning towards (I think nos mode 2?)


Nos 2 sounds great indeed. My favorite along with os8, but nos2 is more forgiving to the transport.


----------



## Viper2005

Heavyboxer said:


> So all this talk about jumper settings got me curious enough take out my solder (and order some electrical bits) to make a quick test bench for DAC modes.
> 
> 
> 
> I've only tested for 30 mins, so no positive conclusion on what I like the most, but so far, the setting it is on now is what I am leaning towards (I think nos mode 2?)



That’s a cool test bench!  I too have settled on NOS2 as my favourite setting.  Its so lively and dynamic.


----------



## gLer

FredA said:


> Nos 2 sounds great indeed. My favorite along with os8, but nos2 is more forgiving to the transport.


How would you differentiate NOS 1, 2 and 3? Most people seem to prefer NOS 3. What would you say is better about NOS 2? Just curious.


----------



## FredA

gLer said:


> How would you differentiate NOS 1, 2 and 3? Most people seem to prefer NOS 3. What would you say is better about NOS 2? Just curious.


I found that NOS3 lacked some punch, which is provided by nos2. Haven't tried nos1 lately.

That said, nos3 is overall more refined. I am now using os8, in fact since i improved my transport (rpi) by adding a lps. I don't find it lacks anything.


----------



## gLer

Hey guys, just curious what everyone is using to connect their sources to the R-28? USB, I2S, Coax, Optical? And why? I’m currently running USB via a regenerator/reclocker and very happy with the results, but as always wondering if there’s a ‘better’ option (for reasonable cost, of course).


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Nov 24, 2018)

UsoppNoKami said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> I don't have the R-28, but I have a very close relative - AudioGD's R2R-R1 and NFB1-AMP, linked via ACSS. My R1 has the upgraded TXCO clocks option.
> 
> ...



I run PC USB-> IFi Galvanic 3.0 -> R2R-R1.  Got rid of any USB/PC power related noise, worth the investment in the iFi gadget.


----------



## 4mayday (Jan 18, 2019)

Hi, everyone,

If I want to set NOS3 mode - do I have to switch on (activate) jumpers S1 and S4 (and for NOS2 - S1 and S5)? Is that correct?

What is second Mode 3 in NOS section? See the screenshot: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WMQkJOQ7DDlfIwY40CIqxK04xqFVih3Z/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Viper2005

4mayday said:


> Hi, everyone,
> 
> If I want to set NOS3 mode - do I have to switch on (activate) jumpers S1 and S4 (and for NOS2 - S1 and S5)? Is that correct?
> 
> What is second Mode 3 in NOS section? See the screenshot: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WMQkJOQ7DDlfIwY40CIqxK04xqFVih3Z/view?usp=sharing



Both are the same NOS3, there is no difference.  Kingwa mapped the same mode to two jumper configurations


----------



## 4mayday

Viper2005 said:


> Both are the same NOS3, there is no difference.  Kingwa mapped the same mode to two jumper configurations



Thank you.

What is another NOS mode when jumpers S3, S& and S6 are active? See the screenshot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g0flbvh8uryzwjf/NOS 0.JPG?dl=0


----------



## Filodream

Mine arrived today. Ready with the excellent Twin Pulse by Spirit Torino.


----------



## WildSeven

Just pulled the trigger and ordered the R28 with TCXOs and USB ISO.

I will be using my MSI gaming laptop as source through USB, as there are other gears connected to my laptop's USB, do I need a dedicate USBridge or something like a Schiit Wyrd to improve the signal?


----------



## thebkt

WildSeven said:


> Just pulled the trigger and ordered the R28 with TCXOs and USB ISO.
> 
> I will be using my MSI gaming laptop as source through USB, as there are other gears connected to my laptop's USB, do I need a dedicate USBridge or something like a Schiit Wyrd to improve the signal?


Nope. The usb isolator does the job.


----------



## Heavyboxer

So a 2019 R28 edition has been released, with jumper lead setting becoming obsolete. DAC mode can now be selected on the faceplate.

Here's to hoping that older model owners might be given a chance to get upgraded, either by a kit or sending our units in.


----------



## PopZeus (Feb 14, 2019)

Damn, the 2019 update to the R-28 has me completely reconsidering my gear situation. I really want one now.

ETA:
Quick question. I was also planning on using this to drive some IEMs as well as full-sized cans. Not particularly efficient IEMs, but I wanted to run them balanced. Do you guys think that will be a problem?


----------



## WildSeven

I should be receiving my 2019 edition by end of this month.


----------



## sumpao

I use R28 everyday really love it it versatile absolute pure class


----------



## ToddRaymond

PopZeus said:


> Quick question. I was also planning on using this to drive some IEMs as well as full-sized cans. Not particularly efficient IEMs, but I wanted to run them balanced. Do you guys think that will be a problem?



I’m just e-mailed my resquest for an invoice for an R-28 and a pair of Precision 3Ss, and I’ll also only be using the headphone amp aspect of the R-28 with some balanced Ocharaku flagship IEMs.  I’ll share my impressions here once I receive it.


----------



## sumpao

Hey guy I have a question I now happy with my R-28 but there is an offer for me to buy MASTER 9 in my country around  700 USD.
Which I find it very bargain did I have to jump for it?


----------



## sumpao

FYI MASTER 9 buying in 2016 is it worth it?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> FYI MASTER 9 buying in 2016 is it worth it?


I haven’t heard the Master 9 myself but honestly, is there anything about the R-28 you don’t like or want to improve? If not, you have your answer. Chasing something just because “it’s a good deal” doesn’t really make sense if you’re happy with what you have. I’ve learned that the hard (and expensive) way over the years.


----------



## Viper2005

sumpao said:


> Hey guy I have a question I now happy with my R-28 but there is an offer for me to buy MASTER 9 in my country around  700 USD.
> Which I find it very bargain did I have to jump for it?



I have the exact same system R28 -> Master 9 and I can tell you the amp of the M9 is improved over the amp in the R28 (its essentially a NFB-1 inside the R28).  You will notice more dynamics and the sound has more gestalt than the R28 alone, at least for he headphones that I use.  
Also make sure you use the ACSS connection between the two, as it uses current vs voltage to transmit the signal so the cable has less influence over the sound.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Feb 20, 2019)

sumpao said:


> Hey guy I have a question I now happy with my R-28 but there is an offer for me to buy MASTER 9 in my country around  700 USD.
> Which I find it very bargain did I have to jump for it?



Master 9 is strictly a preamp/headamp ya..

For what it's worth, I bought a Master 11 Singularity recently, even though I already had a R2R-R1 + NFB1-AMP stack (equivalent to an all-in-one R28).

The primary reason for the purchase is I preferred the sound of the older BB DAC.  On the day I auditioned the M11-S, I also listened to my headphones and tracks on a Chord Hugo TT2 + Mscaler, but the weighty sound of the M11-S won me over.

At home now, direct comparison of the amp section - M11-S has much better authority and dynamics than the NFB1-AMP.  I'm not 100% sure of the differences with the Master 9, cant' find the 2016 edition on the website, but the 2017-onwards M9 amp specs pretty much mirror the M11S.  On that basis, I would say the M9 should sound better than the NFB1-AMP / amp section of the R28.

But instead of dropping $700 on the M9, maybe you can consider something like the Monoprice Monlith Liquid Platinum instead.  Get a different dynamic from the AGD house sound, and you can tune the sound a bit with the preamp tubes whilst still enjoying clean solid-state output (3.6W per channel, can drive pretty much anything).  Rolling tubes won't be too crazy as there are only 2 of them and there is a lot of info available before you buy anything.  Check out the thread in the amps forum if you're interested.


----------



## gLer

Viper2005 said:


> I have the exact same system R28 -> Master 9 and I can tell you the amp of the M9 is improved over the amp in the R28 (its essentially a NFB-1 inside the R28).  You will notice more dynamics and the sound has more gestalt than the R28 alone, at least for he headphones that I use.
> Also make sure you use the ACSS connection between the two, as it uses current vs voltage to transmit the signal so the cable has less influence over the sound.


How much of a jump in quality would you say it is? Is it the proverbial ‘night and day’ some people like to use around here, or more subtle?


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I haven’t heard the Master 9 myself but honestly, is there anything about the R-28 you don’t like or want to improve? If not, you have your answer. Chasing something just because “it’s a good deal” doesn’t really make sense if you’re happy with what you have. I’ve learned that the hard (and expensive) way over the years.



No R-28 is fine for me. I feel no need to upgrade but as per this hobby go "Greed" is what we should happen to face all the time haha.


----------



## Viper2005 (Feb 20, 2019)

gLer said:


> How much of a jump in quality would you say it is? Is it the proverbial ‘night and day’ some people like to use around here, or more subtle?



I wouldn't say its night and day no, but I found the R28 sound was a touch flat and also, with my Atticus it gave it a slightly tizzy upper end, which the M9 also fixed.  The M9 has just a more powerful sound which gels really well with the ZMF headphones.


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> No R-28 is fine for me. I feel no need to upgrade but as per this hobby go "Greed" is what we should happen to face all the time haha.


I know the feeling! Luckily once I heard the R-28 paired with the Auteur, my ‘greed’ was done. Couldn’t care less about looking for “better” now.


----------



## gLer

Viper2005 said:


> I wouldn't say its night and day no, but I found the R28 sound was a touch flat and also, with my Atticus it gave it a slightly tizzy upper end, which the M9 also fixed.  The M9 has just a more powerful sound which gels really well with the ZMF headphones.


Good point - I sold my Atticus because it didn’t gel with the R-28 so I know what you’re describing. Wasn’t keen on shelling out even more to please the headphone when there were better alternatives out there that loved the R-28 (as I eventually and fortunately discovered).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> I know the feeling! Luckily once I heard the R-28 paired with the Auteur, my ‘greed’ was done. Couldn’t care less about looking for “better” now.



I will try to hold this out due to it just curiosity. thank for advise

actually I do my money is worth spend elsewhere. Thanks for advise.

Greed is a bad thing in human life haha


----------



## WildSeven (Feb 22, 2019)

Super happy I received my R28 today, out of the box it sounds amazing, very smooth.
Got the updated version can control different modes with the buttons. 

Tried several settings and currently have it set NOS 2, i think this is my favorite so far.


----------



## WildSeven

Couple internal shots of the 2019 version, going to replace the top with a custom cut smoky acrylic.


----------



## FredA

WildSeven said:


> Couple internal shots of the 2019 version, going to replace the top with a custom cut smoky acrylic.


Confrats! Have fun. It will pair well with planars like the Sundaras or He-560 and others. The settings on the front panel are so convenient. Lots of bang for the buck. Can't go wrong with it.


----------



## crowgun

Hey,

I have just gotten my new Audio GD R28 (2019), it already sounds beyond expectations without burn-in from the beginning! The sound of instruments are fantastic!

Yesterday I downloaded Audirvana for Windows 10 and tried DSD512 upsampling with it both using my FLAC library and songs from Tidal streaming. I used the default settings for upsampling. It is not flawless unfortunately, there are popping sounds, sometimes the sound only comes either from the left or the right channel of my headphone and that is quickly alternating. It also happened that music playing stopped and a very loud white noise started to play, I needed to throw down my headphones immediately because of the shock. I tried the device with multiple USB cables, the behaviour is the same with all when it comes to DSD upsampling (tried everything from DSD64 to DSD512).

Is this the device itself that is faulty or Audirvana? Do you experience the same? Please help me debugging this issue.


----------



## gLer

crowgun said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have just gotten my new Audio GD R28 (2019), it already sounds beyond expectations without burn-in from the beginning! The sound of instruments are fantastic!
> 
> ...


Hmm, unfortunately Audio-gd has a patchy track record with DSD. That said, I haven’t had any issues with DSD and my R-28 and Audirvana+, although I wasn’t trying to upsample but rather just play native DSD tracks. There will be an occasional pop between DSD and PCM, and even the occasional screech, but that shouldn’t happen during tracks. Perhaps try playing some native DSD? Also as far as I know, the R-28 only supports DSD 256 and lower, so DSD 512 shouldn’t work at all. 64 and 128 should be more than fine.

All that said, R2R dacs are natively designed for PCM playback, which is why I converted all my DSDs to high-res PCM, which plays beautifully on the R-28.

Good luck with your troubleshooting...


----------



## crowgun

gLer said:


> Hmm, unfortunately Audio-gd has a patchy track record with DSD. That said, I haven’t had any issues with DSD and my R-28 and Audirvana+, although I wasn’t trying to upsample but rather just play native DSD tracks. There will be an occasional pop between DSD and PCM, and even the occasional screech, but that shouldn’t happen during tracks. Perhaps try playing some native DSD? Also as far as I know, the R-28 only supports DSD 256 and lower, so DSD 512 shouldn’t work at all. 64 and 128 should be more than fine.
> 
> All that said, R2R dacs are natively designed for PCM playback, which is why I converted all my DSDs to high-res PCM, which plays beautifully on the R-28.
> 
> Good luck with your troubleshooting...



Hey gLer,

Do you own a Mac or Pc? What usb cable do you use? Perphaps any usb, power conditioner? Could you try Audirvana's DSD upsampling whether you have issues please?


----------



## gLer

crowgun said:


> Hey gLer,
> 
> Do you own a Mac or Pc? What usb cable do you use? Perphaps any usb, power conditioner? Could you try Audirvana's DSD upsampling whether you have issues please?


I do use a Mac with a QED graphite USB cable and an Ideon 3R reclocker. I’ll give upsampling a try when I get home later today and report back here. The Mac mini supports a maximum of DSD128 with the R-28 because it’s limited to DoP.


----------



## FredA

crowgun said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have just gotten my new Audio GD R28 (2019), it already sounds beyond expectations without burn-in from the beginning! The sound of instruments are fantastic!
> 
> ...


Also, dsd upsampling is cpu-intensive. You need a powerful computer to maximize  sound quality. Even dsd256 upsampled on the fly won't sound so great with an average computer but there will be no glitche. Native dsd256 files do soumd great however. In any case, AFAIAC upsampling pcm files to dsd will never sound as good as playing them natively.


----------



## crowgun

I have an I7-6700 processor with 16 GB of RAM and SSD as storage. I don't think the PC is the bottleneck here.


----------



## crowgun

gLer said:


> I do use a Mac with a QED graphite USB cable and an Ideon 3R reclocker. I’ll give upsampling a try when I get home later today and report back here. The Mac mini supports a maximum of DSD128 with the R-28 because it’s limited to DoP.


Thanks! Audirvana is developed for Mac so I can imagine it still has issues on Win 10 since it is a ported version. Furthermore, Mac users report less issues than PC users when it comes to audio. I wonder how your setup works, with the upsampling, the reclocker could help a lot.


----------



## sumpao

Did anyone try the new firmware yet?


----------



## gLer

sumpao said:


> Did anyone try the new firmware yet?


Which new firmware? I thought I had the latest version (v3).


----------



## sumpao

gLer said:


> Which new firmware? I thought I had the latest version (v3).




TDA firmware. I try today
It sound quite good


----------



## Viper2005

sumpao said:


> TDA firmware. I try today
> It sound quite good



http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R282019/R28_tdaEN.htm

I might give it a try later, although I really enjoy the V2 sound from the R28.


----------



## WildSeven

Wonder what the difference between new firmware and the 2019 version, are they the same? Because the new firmware introduces front panel selection for the settings now.


----------



## Viper2005

WildSeven said:


> Wonder what the difference between new firmware and the 2019 version, are they the same? Because the new firmware introduces front panel selection for the settings now.



Apparently now there is only one NOS mode.


----------



## gLer

Viper2005 said:


> http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R282019/R28_tdaEN.htm
> 
> I might give it a try later, although I really enjoy the V2 sound from the R28.


Please let us know here if you try it, which version you’ve tried, and what the differences are. Also if it’s true about front panel selection and NOS modes. Thanks!


----------



## gLer

WildSeven said:


> Wonder what the difference between new firmware and the 2019 version, are they the same? Because the new firmware introduces front panel selection for the settings now.


No front panel settings changes (to older R-28) according to Kingwa but all NOS modes are combined into one, with more modes to be added in the future. Interesting. Will wait for feedback before trying this.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I'm really enjoying the V3 'Accurate' firmware with my new R-28.  Sounds nice and balanced to my ears; plenty of details but still quite natural/musical.


----------



## diadack

Has anyone had an opportunity to compare this amp/dac to a Hugo 2? I'd love to hear some feedback. I'm looking for a balanced desktop set up to replace my Hugo 2.


----------



## sumpao

I try the new firmware for sometime now.

The R-28 TDA-ASY (Accurate) : The sound is different from V.3. But sound is narrow and echo.
I don't think it natural and some time I lose focus on music. On gaming it even worst so I don't think this is worth the try.

The R-28 TDA-SYN (Smooth) :  This firmware is good. It smooth and easy to listen to.
I don;t have any complaint with it. so worth a try. Sound is not smooth as V.3 smooth


I will go back to Firmware V.3 accurate. due to I think that suite me more.


----------



## vica1

R28 with the clock Accusilicon. The sound is more detailed, cleaner, but not as smooth as before. Previously I used the Audio GD clock.


----------



## ToddRaymond

vica1 said:


> R28 with the clock Accusilicon. The sound is more detailed, cleaner, but not as smooth as before. Previously I used the Audio GD clock.



Thank-you for sharing your helpful impressions.

Did you previously have the TCXOs?  Which firmware are you using?  And finally, which oversampling or non-oversampling mode are you using?

Thanks!


----------



## vica1

Previously I had the Audio Gd.


----------



## vica1

I am using firmware V3 smooth . NOS 3 mode.


----------



## ToddRaymond

vica1 said:


> I am using firmware V3 smooth . NOS 3 mode.



Thanks.  My TCXOs also have the Audio-gd lettering stamped on them.

I’m enjoying the V3 accurate in 8X OS mode.  I’m thinking of getting the Accusilicons.  Soldering doesn’t scare me, but I’m not very experienced.

Anyhow, perhaps the sound will become slightly more smooth for you as they break in a bit.


----------



## vica1 (Apr 20, 2019)

I'll let it burn for at least 200 hours. And then I will let you know.


----------



## WildSeven

Reinstalled windows and driver, using USB, under playback devices I only see max 24bit and 196k available, is there something wrong?


----------



## vica1

vica1 said:


> R28 with the clock Accusilicon. The sound is more detailed, cleaner, but not as smooth as before. Previously I used the Audio GD clock.




So, after 200+ hours of burn in is sound still more detailed and airy. But now it is also smoother. I can say that the accusilicon clocks are great upgrade.


----------



## ToddRaymond

If any R-28 owners plan to pass-through the front-left and front-right channels from a surround processor/preamp, here are the unity gain numbers I received from Aron at Audio-gd:

-In5 single-ended analog input - High gain 79, low gain 94
-In6 balanced analog input - High gain 70, low gain 85


----------



## JaMo

vica1 said:


> So, after 200+ hours of burn in is sound still more detailed and airy. But now it is also smoother. I can say that the accusilicon clocks are great upgrade.


Hi, 
You inspired me to do the XO exchange in my R28, aswell. It was the easyest XO-switch this far. Did it within 10 minutes. ..so now new XO's are cooking in my R2R-7, NFB-27.77 and now also in the R28. It was easy  to do the work in the R28 because there are enough space around the XO's and most important..they were only soldered on the three pins with functions and they was soldered on stands.

/Jan


----------



## vica1

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> You inspired me to do the XO exchange in my R28, aswell. It was the easyest XO-switch this far. Did it within 10 minutes. ..so now new XO's are cooking in my R2R-7, NFB-27.77 and now also in the R28. It was easy  to do the work in the R28 because there are enough space around the XO's and most important..they were only soldered on the three pins with functions and they was soldered on stands.
> 
> /Jan




It is great. Let me know how you like it.


----------



## gLer

Hey guys, I pretty much disappeared after getting the R-28 and realizing that’s basically endgame for me. But of course having seen the R-27 announcement, wondering if anyone’s compared the two?

If it significantly improves on the R-28, where and how? I certainly don’t need any more power, the R-28 is already too much.

And I’m specifically talking about the R-27, not interested in separates.


----------



## TheBell

Hey chaps! I'm a little bit late to the party, but I have to ask. I was looking at upgrading some of my current setup which is a Musical Fidelity V-DAC plugged into a Lehmann Audio Black Linear Cube (I also own a Valhalla 2 but at the moment I am not using it). Thinking of using the Lehmann audio as a preamp eventually for a speakers setup, but that's a different story.

Anyway since the DAC is currently the weakest link on the setup and I never tried an R2R DAC, I had eyes on the R1, which is at the moment around 900EUR. But then the R-28 is "only" 300EUR more. I think the preamp section could eventually be a better candidate for driving a power amp and loudspeakers, and it also gives me more versatility of outputs (e.g. balanced ones which I don't need at the moment but why limit myself to upgradeability in the future). Not to mention if need be I can also put it in DAC mode only.

What are your thoughts? I think I may take the plunge and go for the combined version, seeing some of you here consider it end game material.


----------



## jimmychan

Go for the higher end model would always saving money from the future upgrade.


----------



## A-Nice-Cup-of-Clarity

Hello
 I currently own The Focal Clears, JH Laylas and soon to be ZMF Aeolus.
No I want to upgrade my DAC/AMP to either the
RME ADI-2 DAC
or
the Audio GD R-28.

Can someone compare the 2?
I know that they are very different, but I cant quite put my finger on where the differences lie and how big they are.


----------



## muscleking

anyone having problem with their R28 yet?
i got one that left channel died. opened to examine and see what i found out. Anyone with good electronics design knowledge can tell me what can cause this? started with noise in left channel, then died. Capacitor 1 and 3 leaked first, then now 2 and 4 started bulging. no smoke or explosion of any sort. 

Thank you!


----------



## muscleking

hey man

how come your capacitor is R118 and mine is RH46? can you check the capacitance value? mine is 3300uF 63v. see my post above. My R28 left side died and I found the components that's causing the problem. mine is 19 version i believe it's May 19 build. i got it 300 Canadian (230USD) bucks and i am going to try to fix it myself. 

also i can't figure out how to use it as a dac. i used my audio GD ref 10.32 and it out put as dac to R28 no problem, of course one channel still dead. i was trying to test the Dac see if it works and worst case just use it as a dac. there are 3 jumpers on each side close to the output connector, all 3 have jumpers. i wonder that controls something. this is just a fun little project. i figured if i can't fix it someone else can and i won't lose money at this price.



WildSeven said:


> Couple internal shots of the 2019 version, going to replace the top with a custom cut smoky acrylic.


----------



## gLer (Sep 16, 2019)

muscleking said:


> anyone having problem with their R28 yet?
> i got one that left channel died. opened to examine and see what i found out. Anyone with good electronics design knowledge can tell me what can cause this? started with noise in left channel, then died. Capacitor 1 and 3 leaked first, then now 2 and 4 started bulging. no smoke or explosion of any sort.
> 
> Thank you!


Hi - do you switch off your R-28 when not in use? Also, when did you buy your R-28?


----------



## muscleking

gLer said:


> Hi - do you switch off your R-28 when not in use? Also, when did you buy your R-28?



me personally only turn on dac/amps when i listen to things. then turn it off at night. previous owner i don't know but should be ok too. he said bought in May this year. when i start this it says AGD - 19 on the display.

because of the problem he got 100% refunded so i don't think there is warranty on this thing anymore. i'm ok just buying a few components and try fixing it first and if still have problem i'll probably get rid of it to get the money back which should be no problem. he used it single channel to split the signal out. so i guess at dac level one side is also not working. i wasn't able to get dac working at all. not sure if i am doing something wrong on the cable connections. i will wait until all the parts are here and i replaced the bad components and then report back.

it's a PITA getting the Nover capacitors. there are Nichicon gold ones available on ebay that's more readily available. do you think that makes a sound difference? i want get a hold of the Nover caps first.

AudioGD replied pretty fast asking me to measure a few SMD caps above it, didn't find anything wrong.

the right side sound pretty good. couldn't really compare with my ref 10.32 when only one ear working. lol, i guess that tells how important it is to have both ear working to enjoy audio.


----------



## WildSeven

I don't have equipment to measure the caps, but if you look closely there are 3 R118 and 1 R114 cap on the left side.
My unit is most likely the very first batch of the 2019 version, unit came in February.

As for the DAC/PRE function there's a RED button on the back of the unit, if you followed the instruction below and still not work then obvious there's something wrong with the component inside.

_*Pull out , XLR / RCA /ACSS output as decent DAC, in this mode, the display show "d" instead "P" and the volume number show "--" ,the volume can not adjust anymore (The headphone output mode has not effect).
Push into , XLR / RCA /ACSS output as preamp .
Headphone output mode has not any effect by this selector .*_

I don't leave my R-28 on 24/7, I only turn it on an hour before I listen and then off when I am done. Is plugged into a WAudio W-3900 power noise filter.



muscleking said:


> hey man
> 
> how come your capacitor is R118 and mine is RH46? can you check the capacitance value? mine is 3300uF 63v. see my post above. My R28 left side died and I found the components that's causing the problem. mine is 19 version i believe it's May 19 build. i got it 300 Canadian (230USD) bucks and i am going to try to fix it myself.
> 
> also i can't figure out how to use it as a dac. i used my audio GD ref 10.32 and it out put as dac to R28 no problem, of course one channel still dead. i was trying to test the Dac see if it works and worst case just use it as a dac. there are 3 jumpers on each side close to the output connector, all 3 have jumpers. i wonder that controls something. this is just a fun little project. i figured if i can't fix it someone else can and i won't lose money at this price.


----------



## gLer

muscleking said:


> me personally only turn on dac/amps when i listen to things. then turn it off at night. previous owner i don't know but should be ok too. he said bought in May this year. when i start this it says AGD - 19 on the display.
> 
> because of the problem he got 100% refunded so i don't think there is warranty on this thing anymore. i'm ok just buying a few components and try fixing it first and if still have problem i'll probably get rid of it to get the money back which should be no problem. he used it single channel to split the signal out. so i guess at dac level one side is also not working. i wasn't able to get dac working at all. not sure if i am doing something wrong on the cable connections. i will wait until all the parts are here and i replaced the bad components and then report back.
> 
> ...


So it sounds like this is a lone bad unit that Audio-gd were aware of (since they issued a refund). Did you buy it knowing there was a problem with it? I’ve had mine since the first batch and haven’t had a moment’s trouble with it (touch wood). After your post though I’m going to switch it off between uses, which are currently quite infrequent.


----------



## muscleking

gLer said:


> So it sounds like this is a lone bad unit that Audio-gd were aware of (since they issued a refund). Did you buy it knowing there was a problem with it? I’ve had mine since the first batch and haven’t had a moment’s trouble with it (touch wood). After your post though I’m going to switch it off between uses, which are currently quite infrequent.



yeah i know it`s not working on one side. it`s 300 bucks canadian. lol. i like fixing things and recently have good luck fixing things. 

the previous owner bought it and left side has `noise`, then after a while left died.


----------



## gLer

muscleking said:


> yeah i know it`s not working on one side. it`s 300 bucks canadian. lol. i like fixing things and recently have good luck fixing things.
> 
> the previous owner bought it and left side has `noise`, then after a while left died.


For $300 it’s well worth trying to fix it, as long as the leaking caps haven’t ruined the circuit boards.


----------



## muscleking

gLer said:


> For $300 it’s well worth trying to fix it, as long as the leaking caps haven’t ruined the circuit boards.


oh yeah just the top leak a bit and bulging. no board damage. i removed it all already. talked to kingwa and trying to get a few free capacitors but may have to buy some. it`s 15 USD for 10 on ebay, i talked to one seller. i`ll report back after i replace the components and if it works or works a little bit and then explode. 

looks like this unit has all the custom options added already.


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Oct 2, 2019)

Hi guys.
Does anyone knows how the layout of the xlr is for best performance?

Got the original beyerdynamic xlr cable for the T1. It seems that the ground of both channels is routed on the plug, not the pins. 
Trying this cable with my Era-1 wasn't as satisfying as with the T1.
Plugs on the headphones are equal.

Cable layout 4pin xlr to 2x stereo 3.5
Pin 1 is left+(tip)
Pin 2 is left ring
Pin 3 right+(tip)
Pin 4 right ring
Housing is left+right ground

For my understanding it has to be

Pin 1 left+
Pin 2 left-
Pin 3 right+
Pin 4 right-

Or am i wrong?


----------



## aumont00

New r28 2020 version is available on audio gd web site!! Looks interesting, two transformers with the upgrade, some other improvements as well.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Kingwa is working on a new firmware for the R-28, and it may be ready at some point in the next few days.


----------



## aumont00

Glad to hear that Kingwa is keeping improving the software.
Im about to pull the trigger on a R28, probably tomorrow...


----------



## ToddRaymond (Oct 18, 2019)

Nice, @aumont00!  Which 'phones will you be using it with?  Or, if you are using it in a two channel system, which power amp(s)?

I highly, highly recommend getting the Accusilicons with it.  I just soldered mine in last week, and am thus far very much enjoying the improvement(s).


----------



## aumont00

It is for a two channel speaker setup, with focal chorus 726. Actually I also need to buy a power amp and Im planning to get an audio gd, the A1.

For the the R28, I will take the full upgrade for sure, clocks and two transformers.

The A1 connected acss from the R28 should be a killer combo!!


----------



## ToddRaymond

Nice!  That should be a great combo.

That's pretty much what I have, minus the newly-updated two transformer version.  I have a pair of Precision 3S amps that I run in balanced/mono block configuration.  The A1 is essentially two P3s in one unit.  I am continually blown away by how good this setup sounds for the money.


----------



## aumont00

Cool, Im glad to hear that, because I found difficult to get some reviews of the power amps made by audio gd, except for the high-end models like the master 3, so I was unsure of my choice about the amp...
Do you find it has good dynamics and a lively sound? Is it punchy?


----------



## interweb-tech

*2020 Edition firmwares update available for below models*
　

    R1(R2R1), R7 (R2R7, Optical on IN4 models), R7HE, R8HE ,R28.
    R8 and R27 (Shipped after 1st. Aug.2019 or before that date but with Asy3 wires swapped ).

    Update feature:
    1, The FPGA process data upgrade to parallel mode.
    2, The 2nd generation SPDIF decoder design built in.
    3, Full new configuration clock manage design built in.
    4, DSD asynchronous clock technology has been apply .
    5, DOP support from coaxial input .
    6, Remove popping sound between DSD/PCM track. (Test by WIN10, Foobar 1.31,Amanero interface,  SU1 interface and some XMOS based interface .)

    Please send email to audio-gd@vip.163.com to get the firmware and guide.


http://www.audio-gd.com/En audio-gd.htm


----------



## gLer

interweb-tech said:


> *2020 Edition firmwares update available for below models*
> 
> 
> R1(R2R1), R7 (R2R7, Optical on IN4 models), R7HE, R8HE ,R28.
> ...


Look forward to impressions on the new FW. I have the original R-28, will be interesting to hear if this improves anything.


----------



## ToddRaymond

@aumont00 I've been meaning to write something (hopefully) meaningful and helpful, but kept getting sidetracked.  Since I'm too tired to write something somewhat cohesive, I'll give a rundown of what I've come from, equipment-wise in recent years. My amp/systems have seen various changes due to changes in my work/living situations/priorities.

I've gone from having a so-called high-end Yamaha A/V receiver, to > Schiit Mjolnir + McIntosh MC122 > Ayre K-3x (awesome) + Ayre V-5xe > Ayre V-1xe (also especially amazing) > Ragnarok (holy overrated/underwhelming Bat Person!) > Schiit Saga (two died in two months) + Schiit Vidar > (no preamp other than Cambride Audio 551r) + single Precision 3S > current setup of R-28 + P3Sx2.

Speakers over the past decade have also been all over the place:  (unknown 2' x 1' x1' circa 1981 made in California which dad bought whilst in university) > Totem Mites > Totem THE ONE monitors > Focal Aria 906 > Kef Reference 102/2 > (next month I'll have a custom-built pair of 2 x Scan Speak Revelator mid-woofer + Illuminator Tweeter per channel 'double bookshelf' type deal).

DACs:  Aforementioned Yamaha receiver > Cambridge Audio DAC Magic Plus > Gungnir Multibit > Modi Multibit / Pono Player > Bifrost Multibit > Yggdrasil (and a Master 9 for headphones only, not preamp use at the time) > R-28

(See my profile for headphones.)

I've also had Focal's K2 system in my current and previous cars.

Okay.  If you're looking for something _especially_ punchy and dynamic, you may not be completely blown away (with the A1, anyway).  I do find the presentation to be quite even/balanced though.  As Huell Babineaux might say, it hits "reasonably" hard if the recording calls for it.  I think the Vidar had a touch more low-end 'grunt', but it wasn't as refined in the mids and upper frequencies.  That hunk o' Schiit was okay, but nothing special to these ears.  Sometimes one of the Precision 3Ss will go into protection mode briefly when I've got the volume quite high on super dynamic recordings, or during a sudden loud explosion in a film soundtrack.  These KEFs have a second internal, downward-facing mid-woofer, and our living room is 16' x 12.5' (with two giant openings/walkways).

I found the Master 9 to be super impressive for headphone listening.  The R-28 is really nice, without question, but it perhaps loses out on that last few percent of epic goodness.  (Aside:  I just moved, and I've definitely got a ground loop issue and general A/C noise [perhaps due to too many switching power supplies and crap on the same circuit as the audio stuffs... gonna fix that soon], and I've only done major headphone listening on the R-28 since moving.)  On the other hand, the Master 9 would often keep me absolutely glued to my 'phones until sunrise.

I imagine the R-28 is still the best value unit in the Audio-gd lineup.  Mind you, if I was buying now, and funds allowed, I'd say try to get either:  A) R-8 + Master 19 + Master 3, or B) R-27 + Master 3.  I realize shipping costs would shoot up with the Master 3, but then you'd never run out of steam.  Not to mention the leap in sound quality; from really, quite nice, to possibly unreal.  Since you're in "the" QC, you should perhaps contact the individual on Canuck Audio Mart who just listed the Master 3!


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Last saturday, i got a session with my buddy at his home.

Participants were the R28, Atoll HD100 and his home receiver Denon AVR-X7200.
Headphones in line were my Quad Era-1, Oppo PM-3, Beyerdynamic T1.2 and short time AT-Msr7b.
Loudspeakers were B&W 702 with the help of the Elac Sub 2070. 

Notebook via USB to the R28 and TV via optical to R28 and HD100. Same Flac files from USB-stick on the Denon-->HD100.
Additional youtube streaming over optical connectionto both Hamps.

First thing to notice was the overall control of the R28. 
In comparison to the HD100, the R-28 didn't reach the volume level of the Atoll, even with T1.
But there is so much more punch and control. Really impressive.

As a side note: the Era-1 has destroyed the T1 in every regard, even with balanced cable on the T1.
Such a joy to listen to them.

My buddy has driven the T1 on level 99 on the R28 for a short period without any aches.
That's a bit curios to me, couz the tiny Atoll goes way louder. With lesser quality, of course.

Did somebody mentioned something before?


----------



## aumont00 (Nov 5, 2019)

Thank you @Turdski
I already bought my gears and I been using it for more than a week now.
I bought the new R28 with the A1. Im using it with my Focal Chorus 726.
This is an awesome combo, the best Ive heard so far on my speakers (I didnt tried a lot of gears).
Before that, I was using the schiit gungnir mb with a small class d amp (tripath).
My new setup is miles away better.
I will soon hook up the schiit gungnir to see how it competes against the R28.
Before buying the audio gd gears, I was afraid that maybe it wouldnt be hefty because of the neutrality of audio gd amps in general. My god this thing kicks you in the chest!! It has a lot of punch. Still burning in the combo, but I am very happy so far!


----------



## aumont00

Forgot to mention that I didn't consider the Master 3 and other bigger components because right now I don't have enough room to put those beast.


----------



## xenithon

Quick question to R28 owners. Has anyone perhaps compared USB input from a computer (e.g,, Mac Mini / Macbook) versus USB input from a DAP with USB digital out (i.e., via OTG cable into the R28)? If so, what were your findings?


----------



## JoeDoe

Hey 28ers! I was an early owner and now considering coming back. Has anyone purchased the most recent version with the upgraded internals/clocks? Curious to know what kind of improvements we're talking here!


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Jan 13, 2020)

Hi Joe,

got the 2018 version with upgraded front panel and clocks to Accusilicon AS318B Femto Clock (90M & 98M), bought from @vica1 .
The worst thing is i don't know the earlier releases, so i can't talk about the improvements. ^^

But what i know is, i'll never give it away anymore. 
With balanced cables the R 28 is quite astonishing and the best way to drive headphones with.
It's a huge improvement over single ended cables on my Era-1.
I'm totally satisfied by now.


----------



## aumont00 (Jan 14, 2020)

@JoeDoe I have bought few months ago the upgraded brand new r28 with dual transformers and fully upgraded clocks. It is really good, I cant compare to the old one since I never used it. Also I found out you really gain from using a ddc like for example a gustard u-16 or the audio-gd DI-20. Using the r28 directly connected usb from my macbook doesnt shine.
A friend let me try his gustard u-16 and I got a significant upgrade when I hook it up. I am running with the most recent firmware, parallel data processing.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

aumont00 said:


> @JoeDoeAlso keep in mind that I found out you really gain from using a ddc like for example a gustard or the DI-20. Using the r28 directly connected usb from my macbook doesnt shine.
> A friend let me try his gustard u-16 and I got a significant upgrade when I hook it up.



How do you have discovered this behavior?
Or is it related to the macbook?
Using the R28 right out of my Surface with usb it seems doing really well.


----------



## aumont00

Yes it will do a descent job connected directly from the usb out of a computer, but the usb input of the r28 is not built to manage all that noise coming from the computer. The usb amanero input is ok but relatively basic.
The issue has nothing to do with the specific computer (mac or pc) bit rather with the usb nature to convey some noise from the computer to the dac.
Most of the audio-gd audiophiles that have the higher end devices are using a ddc to improve the sound and believe me it can make a significant difference, depending on your setup.
Taking the i2s output of the gustard u16 via hdmi cable gives me a cleaner sound, more detailed and controlled, less fuzzy.


----------



## gLer

I can confirm the R-28 greatly benefits from a DDC. I have the original version, not the new one, and using the Matrix X-Spdif 2 there's a marked difference in clarity, much lower noise floor, better separation, larger stage, more air. I've also tried the Ideon 3R Renaissance and ifi iPurifier 3 reclockers, and both improve the R-28's native USB input. That said a dedicated DDC like the Matrix going to IIS seems to be the best of them all.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Thank you @aumont00 and @gLer .

So for the first step i should be fine with the MS Surface Pro in terms of that silly noise you've mentioned.
I'll keep an eye on that in the future. 

The R28 is connected to the MS Docking station, which connects over their proprietary digital port to the surface pro.
That sounds way better than the former used notebook to me. It's about the missing fan, i guess.


----------



## JoeDoe

aumont00 said:


> @JoeDoe I have bought few months ago the upgraded brand new r28 with dual transformers and fully upgraded clocks. It is really good, I cant compare to the old one since I never used it. Also I found out you really gain from using a ddc like for example a gustard u-16 or the audio-gd DI-20. Using the r28 directly connected usb from my macbook doesnt shine.
> A friend let me try his gustard u-16 and I got a significant upgrade when I hook it up. I am running with the most recent firmware, parallel data processing.





aumont00 said:


> Yes it will do a descent job connected directly from the usb out of a computer, but the usb input of the r28 is not built to manage all that noise coming from the computer. The usb amanero input is ok but relatively basic.
> The issue has nothing to do with the specific computer (mac or pc) bit rather with the usb nature to convey some noise from the computer to the dac.
> Most of the audio-gd audiophiles that have the higher end devices are using a ddc to improve the sound and believe me it can make a significant difference, depending on your setup.
> Taking the i2s output of the gustard u16 via hdmi cable gives me a cleaner sound, more detailed and controlled, less fuzzy.





gLer said:


> I can confirm the R-28 greatly benefits from a DDC. I have the original version, not the new one, and using the Matrix X-Spdif 2 there's a marked difference in clarity, much lower noise floor, better separation, larger stage, more air. I've also tried the Ideon 3R Renaissance and ifi iPurifier 3 reclockers, and both improve the R-28's native USB input. That said a dedicated DDC like the Matrix going to IIS seems to be the best of them all.



Good to know! Many thanks!


----------



## interweb-tech

I have been using a PS Audio LANRover I picked up last year. They are no longer available. I bought mine here from a fellow head-fier. I cleans up the USB signal by converting it to ethernet and then back to USB. Its meant to be a way to have very long runs between the PC and the DAC with the side benefit of cleaning up the signal. Silicon strap to stack the two boxes to minimize footprint.


----------



## jimmychan

Please see the benefit of Audio-gd DI20HE to get the best out of your Audio-gd DAC. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Feb 1, 2020)

Hi guys.
Yesterday was a great day for the R28, and me. ))

Was heading to my preferred local Hi-Fi Dealer located near Munich to demo some active loudspeaker.
What should i say, i was blown away from the performance of this beast connected to *Elac Air-X 407*. 
Source was my Surface Pro via USB.

My dealer was curious about the R28 bc he was overwhelmed by its musicality.
The former connected Cocktail Audio X45 sounded like crap in comparison to the R28.

With the track *Hi-Lo* from Synthesis by Evanescence i've got tears in my eyes. It was such a great experience to me.
I can't explain how much of emotions running through my hole body. Outstanding.

The R28 with the Air-X 407 was a combo made from heaven.
So i decided to pull the trigger and bought this amazing pair of loudspeakers for a more than great price. 
I'm so happy about that.

My dealer is going to take a closer look at audio-gd and i think he'll buy an audio-gd device in the near future.
Hope to see an R28/ R27 in his rig asap, or a Master with an R2R dac.

Btw. every headphone i've tried sounds better with the R28, period.
Compared with Cocktail Audio X45, HA 500 and Atoll HD100.
The R28 has blown all away.

Be glad to have such a great sounding device.

Hope you're all doing well and have a great day. 

Chris

Edit.
A little advice.
Never place a full aluminium bodied sound source ( Surface Pro ) on top of the R28 connected with usb. ^^
It'll hurt your ears, the loudspeakers and maybe the source device.
It's taken me 20 minutes to bring back the sound out of the surface.
Don't know what's happen at this moment.


----------



## Nickol

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare R-28 and Denafrips Ares with each other?
Which is better, what are your impressions?


----------



## aumont00

I would be curious to see that comparison too.
I know however that there is a complete comparison of the flagship models of each company: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...tor-ladder-dacs.853902/page-383#post-15397134


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys I'm in the market for a good R2R DAC for under $800. So far the best that was recommended was the Bifrost 2. Would anyone know of a comparison between the R-1 or other Audio-GD DAC within this price range vs. the Bifrost 2? Doesn't the R28 have the R-1 DAC in it? Thanks!


----------



## aumont00

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys I'm in the market for a good R2R DAC for under $800. So far the best that was recommended was the Bifrost 2. Would anyone know of a comparison between the R-1 or other Audio-GD DAC within this price range vs. the Bifrost 2? Doesn't the R28 have the R-1 DAC in it? Thanks!


Yes, the R28 has the equivalent of the R-1 dac and it is a good dac. Most of the people would tell you that the audio gd is more musical, while the schiit bifrost 2 is somewhere between a reference sound and a musical one. The usb input of the schiit might be better. I personnaly have an R-28 with a ddc, using the hmdi i2s input and it sounds so great!!


----------



## DecentLevi

That's helpful, thanks. So the R-1 is said to sound more musical than the Bifrost 2, and as well on other regards such as detail, soundstage, dynamics, etc. perhaps? Or any thoughts on how it compares to the Yggy 2 for reference? (the new Bifrost is said to be similar)
I have the Singxer SU-1 as a DDC and it has HDMI as well as RCA coax out so I guess I could try both and see which gels better with the R-1 if I get it. Is it recommended to have an audible difference depending on quality of HDMI cable, or will any do as well?

I also like this idea because it handles DSD - does anyone have any words on its' performance with DSD? (.DSF files)

But then about shipping. Does anyone know if Audio GD charges a lot from China to the US, and if the outbreak has been effecting shipping from there?


----------



## JoeDoe

DecentLevi said:


> But then about shipping. Does anyone know if Audio GD charges a lot from China to the US, and if the outbreak has been effecting shipping from there?



I placed an order for the newest R28 in January and it was slated to ship the first week of this month. An email toKingwa however revealed that shipping has been delayed because of the outbreak. He told me it’d go out 2.22 at the earliest.


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## aumont00 (Feb 17, 2020)

@DecentLevi It is always tricky to say that a specific device will be better than another one for everybody. Schiit makes good dacs, and out of the box it performs well. If you use an R-1 out of the box, with no ddc plugged directly in the usb input, it will perform ok, musical, but not super detailed. However, using a good ddc, yes the details and stereo image will improve a lot and it will still be super musical. I think it may outperform the bifrost 2, would have to compare to be sure...
I use a Gustard U-16 in front of my R-28, along with an external clock, and it is really really impressive. I had a schiit gungnir before, which is better than the bifrost, and I think my current setup beats it.
Now for the output from your singxer, the recommended cable is really the blue jeans hdmi FE-bonded because it performs so well for the price, it is ridiculous (you can confirm reading numerous comments of headfiers on the thread about the new audio gd DI-20). The cable is available in different lengths, here is an example:
https://www.amazon.com/Bonded-Pair-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet-Black/dp/B0026NX3Z8


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## DecentLevi

Hey guys thanks for your tips especially about that cable deal. When you say it's musical, do you mean it's colored / euphonic or lush? I'm hoping for very minimal coloration to the sound as I prefer a neutral / clean / transparent true to life sound since aside from listening I also do sound design so I need it to sound very true to life and not colored, unless in a very subtly way.

Also does anyone have any comments on this DAC's handling of PRaT? Along with rock and jazz I listen to a lot of rhythmic focused electronic and pop music and am interested to know how if it seems to give a cohesive rhythm presentation.

The R-1 is definitely at the top of my list for now...


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## Chris Kaoss (Feb 17, 2020)

As the R1 is equal to my R28s dac, you can change the sound by switching through the different modes of NOS or OS.
It's like going from musical close to reference, i guess. Whatever reference means, bc it is very subjective, imo. 

To me, musical is a lifelike presentation of the reproduced sound. Which means, it sound natural in comparison of my experience of perceiving sounds.
The Audio GD is capable to deliver. 

If your speakers/ headphones aren't really poor assembled, there'll be no problem with such things like "prat", i guess.
Afaik, PRaT is a really subjective perception.
May someone shed a light on me. 

At the end, the R1 is a great dac and you've to take a listen to, imo.

Happy listening and have a great day.
Chris

Edit:
Apologies, if it sounds a bit harsh, english isn't my native language.


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## ToddRaymond (Feb 17, 2020)

@DecentLevi, I used to own the Gungnir Multibit, then the Bifrost Multibit due to needing the funds, and later the Yggdrasil A1.  The original Bifrost MB, in my opinion, was very much overrated – despite being a fine enough DAC for any sane person.  The Gungnir Multibit was much more impressive.  The Yggdrasil A1 was very nice indeed.  Attempted to buy a home, so sold it, along with the Master 9.  I wish I could comment on the Bifrost 2.  I also found the original Ragnarok to be nothing special, considering the level of hype out there for Schiit in general.  (I previously had heard the upper-level Schiit DACs through an Ayre preamp and power amp, where they performed far, far, far better to these ears.)

With the R-28 through my speakers, I don’t find I miss the Yggdrasil.  I’m using the Singxer SU-6, with the Wireworld Platinum Starlight HDMI (probably overkill, but I got a very nice discount on one).  Headphone listenin’-wise, there are definitely times that I miss the Master 9 (and I look forward to one day owning the HE-9), but the R-28 still does a fine job.

I am still on the previous firmware, and the accurate version thereof:  V3A.  I still need to install Windows on my Mac in order to update to the latest (‘DOP’) firmware.  I also use 8X oversampling.  I don’t have a super bright tweeter in these older KEF Reference monitors, but I’m also probably less sensitive to treble than the average biped.


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## DecentLevi

Awesome guys, thanks for your input. That's another thing I like about this DAC is the ability to toggle on the fly between 4 different OS modes. In my experience this has a way of effecting the rhythm (at least perceived) it so could be quite handy in this regard.

And @ToddRaymond that's quite the accolade that this DAC is comparable to the Yggy even the analog 1 version, which must mean it's comparable to the Bifrost 2 as well. For the firmware were you referring to the R28 DAC?

And I'm curious does anyone have any words on the treble presentation of the R-1 DAC such as texture / quality and especially smoothness?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Testet on R28 with Pioneer Monitor 5 connected to se-out  and

- Gioachino Rossini - Sonata No. 2 in A Major - I.Allegro (Chamber Orchestra Kremlin - Misha Rachlevsky)
- Arnesen - Magnificat 4. Et misericordia
- Jan Gunnar Hoff - Living
- Jan Gunnar Hoff - The elder
- Rondo' Veneziano - Concerto Vivaldi (1990) - Track 02 Inverno
- Rondo' Veneziano - Concerto Vivaldi (1990) - Track 06 Primavera
- Ola Gjeilo - North country II
- Joseph Haydn - String Quartett in D, Op.76 No.5 Finale-Presto
- Frederic Chopin - Nocture in B flat minor, Op.9
and many more.
All stationary stored in flac with the MS Surface connected via usb.

It was such a great experience with the Monitor 5, which is known for very accurate and clean reproduction.
Non-fatiquing, very enjoyable listening at volume 70 out of 99, which means 10% power output with OS 8 mode.
But i can speak for the R28 only. 

And i know the Quad Era-1 will top the Monitor 5 in terms of musicality and headstage.
At least in my opinion.


----------



## Nickol

Chris Kaoss said:


> It was such a great experience with the Monitor 5, which is known for very accurate and clean reproduction.
> Non-fatiquing, very enjoyable listening at volume 70 out of 99, which means 10% power output with OS 8 mode.


Did you listen to it on the High gain or Low ?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Nickol said:


> Did you listen to it on the High gain or Low ?


I always listen in h-gain.
The same with my connected Elac Air-X 407.


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## ToddRaymond (Feb 20, 2020)

@DecentLevi:  I often have difficulty being thorough in my explanations without being long-winded, so I should probably attempt to be more clear on a couple of things with regards to R-28/R-1 vs. Yggy A1.

For one thing, I was using the USB Gen 5 input on the Yggy, whereas almost from the start I've been using the SU-6 with my R-28.  Given the very apparent jump from the built-in Amanero USB board to the SU-6, I can imagine the Yggy would deliver more goods with the new Unison USB board, or perhaps especially with a really fine digital-to-digital converter.  It seems a number of individuals on the DI-20 thread have found the DI-20 to be better still than the U16 or SU-6.

I have also been using different power amps since my progression through the Schiit DACs to my current setup.  On top of that, there's the whole audio memory being unreliable thing.  However, the one constant in place would be the fact that I've been using flagship Ocharaku earphones the entire time, which are very revealing and borderline* sibilant (*give or take, depending on the upstream gear and recording).  A Schiit DAC out of the box with their current best USB board may be a more convenient "set it and forget it" solution overall than the little bit of extra fiddling and tweaking that may (or may not) be necessary with an Audio-gd DAC.  From my own experience, and for own ears, I would say the current Audio-gd R2R DACs are undoubtedly greater bang-for-buck components than the Schiit multibit DACs – at least _without_ factoring in extras like a USB to I2s converter, better cabling (which seems perhaps more "necessary" with this gear), and über clean power if possible.  Not everybody's going to want to be bothered with the (optional of course) FPGA firmware upgrades.  Mind you, with the firmware revisions available for several years after the original release of the product, you really have the option to sort of upgrade your DAC to a new and improved product, without having to ship it anywhere.

I know the term "musical" is a tricky one to employ, but to me, the Gungnir Multibit A1 had that slightly more pleasant wamth that was very much enjoyable, while the Yggy A1 brought with it additional focus and overall resolution, _possibly _at the expense of some of that musicality.  It sounded a wee bit thinner.  I would say the R-28 sits somewhere in between the two, at least with the V3A firmware with 8X oversampling.  I'm sure the V3S (smooth) using one of the NOS modes would sound quite a bit more euphonic than even the Gungnir Multibit A1, but at the expense of resolution (based on what I've read on the various threads on this site; and I've read a number of entire threads).  I'm chronically chasing that perfect and probably impossible balance between ultimate resolution/transparency/neutrality/clarity/whatnot, and pleasantness/naturalness/realism/beautiful tone and timbre.  Or perhaps it's all one thing.  The R-28 in my system seems to get pretty darn close to that.  I may have gotten better definition in the lower registers, perhaps a hair more separation of instruments, and 2% better overall resolution with the Yggy A1, but it's been a while now.  So, grain of salt here.

If I don't include the cost of the SU-6 though (or the upgrades I did like the MUSES8920, and the upgraded internal wiring and connectors I did), my entire DAC, preamp, headphone amp, _and _power amp setup from Audio-gd (including shipping) costed less than what an Yggdrasil A2 alone does.

If you do go the Audio-gd route, I highly recommend getting the Accusilicon clocks.  For me, they brought more focus/clarity to the musical picture.


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## DecentLevi (Feb 21, 2020)

ToddRaymond said:


> @DecentLevi:  I often have difficulty being thorough in my explanations without being long-winded, so I should probably attempt to be more clear on a couple of things with regards to R-28/R-1 vs. Yggy A1.
> 
> For one thing, I was using the USB Gen 5 input on the Yggy, whereas almost from the start I've been using the SU-6 with my R-28.  Given the very apparent jump from the built-in Amanero USB board to the SU-6, I can imagine the Yggy would deliver more goods with the new Unison USB board, or perhaps especially with a really fine digital-to-digital converter.  It seems a number of individuals on the DI-20 thread have found the DI-20 to be better still than the U16 or SU-6.
> 
> ...


Hi @ToddRaymond
super helpful post, thanks. I'm at work now so just a few brief questions for now if you don't mind.

Did you use any headphones in the R28 vs. Yggy comparison? Myself being more of a full size headphone guy I'm not entirely confident that an IEM can give a clear picture of differences between DACs. Of course this is just an opinion and can change, but I generally find greater differences with things like soundstage, realism, imaging, etc. with at least a mid-fi headphone such as HD-600 with upgraded cable.

For the Accusilicon clocks, is that an optional upgrade in the Audio-GD products, and is it costly? And I have the Singxer SU-1, doesn't that already include a reclocker?

For the firmware updates, are those fairly easy to install on their DACs?

Oh also for anyone else, have you tried the Holo Audio Cyan DAC? I was told this is also supposed to be a very good option if I'm looking for a good DAC with that supports oversampling options and DSD, though coming in at $2-300 more.

I will finally be buying my chosen DAC soon, so thanks for your input guys.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh about my question above on the Accusilicon clock chip, I noticed on their website it says "_Full Clocks upgrade version: USD889 (Femtosecond Accusilicon *2 upgrade the stock clock and Femtosecond Crystek *2 upgrade on USB interface)_", which answers about the cost. Interestingly this also includes 2 Crystek clock upgrades too which I have no idea about. That would be also interesting to know of anyone has any thoughts on the sound of the stock R-1 (or R28) vs. the TCXO vs. the full clocks upgrade version quoted above.


----------



## filip sebastian

Does anyone know what Audio Gd Master 19 is?  Is the sound identical to R 28, obviously without internal dac?  I'm interested in making a good pair with the Hd800.


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## aumont00

The R-28 is in fact a r1 dac plus a NFB-1AMP preamp and headphone amp.
The master 19 is a better gear that the NFB-1AMP. Never heard the master 19 though, but it is supposed to be closer to the master 9, which is very well regarded gear.


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## filip sebastian

Multumesc pentru raspuns. Mă bucur că este mai aproape de Master 9, am constatat că R28 intern seamănă cu Master 19.


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## aumont00

@filip sebastian nobody will understand if you use other language than english


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## filip sebastian

[QUOTE = "filip sebastian, post: 15484408, membru: 496052"]
Multumesc pentru raspuns. Mă bucur că este mai aproape de Master 9, am constatat că R28 seamănă cu Master 19.
[/ Citat]


----------



## filip sebastian

Sorry, posted on my smartphone, which is set to automatically translate English texts ...


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys, thanks to your help I just put in an order for the R-1 which is supposed to be the same as the R28's internal DAC. I didn't want to skimp on potential performance so I paid extra for their "full clocks upgrade" version in case it makes any improvement. Looking forward to it, and trying all the different oversampling + filter modes and even connections to find the 'sweet spot'(s). 

Also does anyone know about how much burn-in is recommended? 
And which firmware update is most recommended - and how? Thanks


----------



## aumont00

For the burn-in, give it a good 300 hours. You can let it run for few days if you want to accelerate the process.
Im running the newest firmware, parallel mode, oversampling in 8x and I like it.
Cant comment on the other firmware versions because havent tried any other.


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## Chris Kaoss

They're already burned in for 300 to 500 hours, as i can recall.
But as @aumont00 said, give it another 150 to 300 hours.

For classical and jazz, i like the OS8 mode.
For rock and metal stuff, i like the NOS 3.
But ymmv.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh that's cool, so I can just push a button to switch on the fly between OS and filtering modes. And what is parallel mode, one of the digital filters?


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Feb 26, 2020)

Apologies.
I was wrong with the burn in time.
By manufacturer, burn in time is around 100 hours.
You can read it on their page at the "use manual" page of the R1. 

With parallel, he is pointing to the synchronous firmware, i guess.
Kingwa described it as the smoother firmware, while the asynchronous should be the more accurate one.


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## aumont00

Parallel mode is not a filter but the way digital data is processed. In parallel mode, you can process all the bits of a sample in one clock cycle. In serial mode, which was the only mode in the past for audio gd r2r dacs, you need multiple clock cycles to process a whole sample.
Now, some people here may know a lot more than me about those mode, but this is what I understood reading the audio gd website.
Many have commented that they prefer the parallel mode, it is the mode that is used by default with the new firmware.
If you use a ddc with the hdmi output, I would highly recommend that you get the fe bonded cable from blue jean cable


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## DecentLevi (Feb 26, 2020)

Thanks guys, I'll definitely try parallel mode firmware. Yup, the folks at audio - GD said just now that they ship with 100 hours burn in, and they even recommend another 350 hours with music playing to sound best.

I'll also try the recommended Blue Jeans HDMI cable. I have their RCA cable too and it's fairly good, coincidentally there also from Seattle.

If any of you are having trouble reaching audio - GD, they use Chinese emails which are notorious for filtering algorithms so everything went to spam. You may need to give them landline to see if they can whitelist your email like I had to do.

Actually before I before getting the R-1 I had a conversation with a very reputable DAC reviewer guru and he told me he really wasn't on board with the audio GD DACs, saying the R-1 sounded horrible, with bad tonality, Etc. and it measured poorly. I don't doubt that he had a bad experience with his, but despite what he said you guys convinced me to give it a whirl, so I still hold out hope that maybe there is potential to make the R-1 DAC sound good with the likes of various connections, firmware updates, burn-in and various modes... Time will tell.


----------



## interweb-tech (Feb 27, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Actually before I before getting the R-1 I had a conversation with a very reputable DAC reviewer guru and he told me he really wasn't on board with the audio GD DACs, saying the R-1 sounded horrible, with bad tonality, Etc. and it measured poorly.



My experience is people either love Audio-gd or hate them. Very strong opinions. I have owned three different models (R2R-11, NFB-28.38, and now the R-28) and have loved them all. Still waiting for reviews on the R-27 to see if it's my next move.


----------



## JoeDoe

interweb-tech said:


> My experience is people either love Audio-gd or hate them. Very strong opinions. I have owned three different models (R2R-1, NFB-28.38, and now the R-28) and have loved them all. Still waiting for reviews on the R-27 to see if it's my next move.




So which version of the R28 do you have?


----------



## ToddRaymond

@DecentLevi Congrats on your purchase!  I hope it brings you much sonic bliss.

I used to have a pair of HE-560s when I still had the Master 9.  While it may have had a slightly taller and deeper soundstage (and perhaps it was a bit more neutral), to me it definitely was not a superior listen to the particular IEMs I have.  I used to own the KSE1500s, which were quite spectacular (Focal Utopia level amazing).  I sold them mostly due to needing the funds at the time, but I also found carrying that amp around to feel like a boat anchor, and they oddly just didn't give me the absolutely perfect fit and seal that I had previously experienced with their SE535s.  Anyhow, while I did get a bit lower distortion and a tad more resolution with them than my Ocharaku phones, I don't feel like I'm missing out on very much.  In fact, in some respects, I find the timbre on these 'phones to be a bit more natural sounding (perhaps it's the maple and zelkova housings in the two different pairs); and this incredible ethereal decay on certain recordings is just sublime.  I've always been impressed by certain aspects of electrostatic drivers, but I'm ultimately very much satisfied with dynamic drivers.

As to your other question about clocks, since you've gone with the full meal deal clock upgrade, you'll have eliminated (for the forseeable future, anyway) any potential itch to upgrade them.  The Crystek clocks mentioned are for the USB board only.  You'll be using the Accusilicons, regardless of which digital input you're using.

When it comes to burn-in, I would say to not concern yourself too much with it.  I would just throw on some tunes and enjoy the ride – as opposed to not really listening to the unit for two, three weeks.  The sound will shift during this time, mostly for the better.  I think mine has finally fully settled in now, but it's hard to say when the unit itself stopped shifting, as I upgraded to the Accusilicons at around the 600 hour mark.


----------



## interweb-tech

JoeDoe said:


> So which version of the R28 do you have?



I don't actually know. I bought it from an acquaintance on Facebook.


----------



## JoeDoe

interweb-tech said:


> I don't actually know. I bought it from an acquaintance on Facebook.


Gotcha. Do you know when it was originally purchased?


----------



## interweb-tech

JoeDoe said:


> Gotcha. Do you know when it was originally purchased?


2019


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## Chris Kaoss (Feb 27, 2020)

interweb-tech said:


> My experience is people either love Audio-gd or hate them. Very strong opinions. I have owned three different models (R2R-11, NFB-28.38, and now the R-28) and have loved them all. Still waiting for reviews on the R-27 to see if it's my next move.


Fully agree.

Had a comparison with the 10.33.

The R28 tonally sounds better, but the 10.33 has given me this feeling of "there is much more headroom on it".
I think this belongs to the exponential volume control of the R28.
With the 10.33, i was't dail higher than 30 out of 80 while on the R28, i'm at 70 till 75 out of 100 with the same perceived volume level! ( Quad Era-1 )

On this difference, i recognized my fooling brain.
75 out of 99 on the R28 means 15% of the power it can deliver ( 10.33 is at 10% on volume 30 ).
The last 25 steps on the volume knob will bring the remaining 85%.
The 10.33, while nearly the same specs on the amp side, reaches higher volume level.

Well, this is just volume (spl) not clarity in sound reproduction. 

Did some of the other owners of the R28 recognized this behavior?

Especially with the T1 there was a hugh difference.

P.s. all tests taken on high gain.

Edit:
Got the 2019 model, i think.

"Audio GD R-28 DAC/AMP combo. This unit was purchased 07/2018 from Audiophonics. The unit was upgrade to latest R28 "jumperless" R2R DAC. All functions operable from front panel. And the clock was upgrade to Accusilicon AS318B Femto Clock (90M & 98M). "


----------



## richardloh (Feb 27, 2020)

sumpao said:


> It cost 850 EUR
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Sumpo,

I bought 2 units  the older MK1 3R at about usd70 and found that it helps to improve this subjective SQ topic for both the usb output of my android car headunit to the Helix dsp pro mk2 processor and himedia q10 pro used as a server via usb otg to my denafrips terminator dac in my home system. I have linear psu in both use cases to the 3R and using a usd50 gender adaptor from the 3R to the denafrip Terminator dac  .. any usb cable seems veiled and took away energy including not too lame audioquest carbon

I recently swapped the himedia Q10 pro to the allo usb bridge signature to feed the denafrips Termonator dac  which was an another obvious improvement.

Lastly and surprising, I added the ifi usd49 defender 3.0 to cut 5v and while the denafrip Terminator dac needs 5v at its usb input, the powered 3R nicely provide this clean 5v via the mentioned usd0.5 gender adaptor .. details and musicality improved obviously from my Revel Salon 2.

Just sharing since the 3R was mentioned and thought this cheap cutting of 5v away but keeping your best usb cable in the chain may also offer you further improvement ... cheers.

Richard

PS: tried also both ifi iusb3.0 power and cheaply bought used older iusbpower that I have and still prefers the 3R with or without added cable instead of the gender adaptor


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys I got my R-1 DAC today.

So far the sound quality is very sub-par and significantly lacking in all aspects behind my lowly Schiit Modi 2 Multibit. I was interested to upgrade the firmware but it looks like I will need an Altera USB blaster, right?


----------



## DecentLevi

So after 1 hour the R-1 DAC may be sounding a little better than out of the box. But after just doing a very careful critical listen comparison of a few well mastered songs I'm very familiar with, it's still trailing quite a bit behind the old Modi 2 Multibit DAC mainly with a soundstage that is much smaller / claustrophobic and the details are taking a big hit.

I've been running both my Modi 2 Multibit via a series of 3 USB components: iFi iPurifier 2 --> Wyrd --> Singxer SU-1. This made a great improvement for the Modi and a more subtle but noticeable improvement on the R-1. Even comparison them both directly with USB, the Modi still won on things like bass texture, detail, soundstage, etc. And I've taken you folks advice and went for a Blue Jeans HDMI cable and I do think that helped a bit, it sounds almost identical to the optical RCA connection but a nuance more detail. 

I will keep burning this in with music playing for some days, but with how this sounds out of the box (already with 100 hours factory burn-in) I'm skeptical at this point how much of a difference firmware upgrades will have, as well as digital filter modes. But I definitely will try these and keep my fingers crossed that it can not only match the Modi 2 Multibit but exceed it...


----------



## DecentLevi

Audio-GD just told me I already have the newest firmware version installed. And mine is their top Full Clocks upgrade version with Accusilicon clocks.

After almost an hour reading their broken English online manual I finally figured out how to change modes. Though a modest difference I think I prefer the 8x oversampling mode, and the difference between modes was small, if even a placebo to me. With my preferred modes and a few more hours, I noticed the bass and some detail to come into focus, but after another A/B to the Modi 2 Multibit the R-1 is still trailing behind on the detail, soundstage and instrument separation. Will give it some more burn in.


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 21, 2020)

Along the way I noticed something that may be of interest. RCA cables make a HUGE difference in sound with the R-1 DAC. One cable gave me a fuller sound with larger soundstage but soft dynamics and another gave a bighter / snapper sound with a smaller soundstage, while swapping between the same cables on the Modi 2 multibit the sound was not as different. I guess this doesn't apply to the R28 unless using a DAC only mode its' already having an amp, but for anyone not completely satisfied with the sound, by all means try a pro-audio RCA cable for a big difference in sound. Though for me I'm still looking for the best one.


----------



## Jandu

DecentLevi said:


> Audio-GD just told me I already have the newest firmware version installed. And mine is their top Full Clocks upgrade version with Accusilicon clocks.
> 
> After almost an hour reading their broken English online manual I finally figured out how to change modes. Though a modest difference I think I prefer the 8x oversampling mode, and the difference between modes was small, if even a placebo to me. With my preferred modes and a few more hours, I noticed the bass and some detail to come into focus, but after another A/B to the Modi 2 Multibit the R-1 is still trailing behind on the detail, soundstage and instrument separation. Will give it some more burn in.



At least 500-1000 hours of burn-in time would be needed. It is an R2R dac, not a chip dac, so don't expect it to have the same presentation. It is meant to be a musical dac, not a HiFi dac. Just give it time, and if your other components are not altering its signature, it will bring you music in a more analogue, non-fatigue way. 

As Kingwa puts it, the R2R dac allows you to listen to music similar to looking at an oil painting, instead of looking at a high res photo. 

Let us know after the unit has been playing a month.


----------



## JoeDoe

Wanted to drop in here (what with quite a bit of newfound free time) to post that my upgraded R28 arrived last week after a month long delay from China. So far so good - very natural and clean sounding! Loving the smaller more desktop-friendly footprint than the Master series, and a very clean/easy menu, especially for not having an OLED readout. Will post more developed impressions later!


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## DecentLevi

I'll give it some more time, but for me I was looking more for a hi res photo than an oil painting. For me the Qutest is seeming a sexier option, so to speak. Also Audio GD just told me the newest firmware R1tda_Asy_P_dop1.1 is an improvement based on the parallel firmware version, which I have.


----------



## DecentLevi

Does someone know about which aspects are generally seen to improve with burn-in of their R2R DAC's? Thanks


----------



## aumont00

With mine, at the beginning the highs were recessed and so it was less detailed and focused. Sorry I cant tell you more because I was burning in two devices at the same time so its hard for me to tell exactly what comes from the dac vs the amp. You can expect the sound to be more detailed and focused after the burn in process.
I had a schiit gumby for few months to compare, the gumby was more detailed, but after adding the ddc gustard u16 as well as an external clock, the r28 is closer to the gumby. I dont have the gumby anymore, it was too much tipped up on the highs, too brigth for me.


----------



## aumont00

Also I forgot to mention, as you may know, the gumby was a more expensive gear, so it was to be expected that it performs better. It probably compare well to an audio gd r8, with a different flavor.
I also tried the modi 3 delta sigma, was not impressed. The sound was clean, but it didnt sound like music, it sounded like a machine trying to create music, some people would say « artificial ».


----------



## DecentLevi

OK folks here are my final impressions of the Audio-GD R-1 DAC - which I no longer own. (the same DAC in the R-28).

Right out of the box with 100 hrs. burn-in from China, the sound seemed a bit off kilter perhaps in the timbre and detail. After 1 hour I got a little sonic improvement... perhaps... and this was the best it ever got. My personal opinion is this product is a flop, a complete dud. As mentioned I took due care to follow the recommended steps of using a good HDMI cable, and it was via a very good series of 3 USB components / reclocker / decrapifiers (also tried without and with every possible combination of 1 or 2). As well I diligently chose the best filter and OS mode at 8x OS, in addition I went for the top spec "full clocks upgrade" version with also the latest firmware installed. My upstream gear consisted of Feliks Audio Euforia tube amp with custom tube compliment which yields a very organic, well textured, detailed sound with resolution aplomb; headphones were HD-600 with upgraded silver cable as well as HD-650 with upgraded copper cable; I also tested via my Stax Lambda L700 electrostat headphones with Stax SRM-1 MK2 energizer.

I spent a solid 18 days of burning this sucker in with music playing in a loop of various genres, almost 24 hours / day with the occasional 1 hour break. I even left it off once overnight to see if a good resting period would turn things around. Almost every day I would do a direct A/B comparison to my entry-level Modi 2 Multibit (R2R) DAC and the Modi would consistently beat the R-1 like clockwork. Every comparison on every test track and every element of the sound reproduction would give a huge nod in favor of the Modi Multibit without waiver. 

*What was lacking, vs. the entry-level Modi 2 Multibit?* 
- soundstage. Sounds congested and relatively flat
- instrument separation. Huge loss here, with many elements of the mix smearing together in one blob, vs. well defined layers in a coherent manner
- detail. A fair amount of fine detail that I heard with the former was simply not present, not at all, period.
- transient response. Not bad but drums didn't impress me as much
- bass definition and sense of rhythm. While it doesn't fail here, it just wasn't nearly as well defined or cohesive as the former DAC
- tonality. this aspect seemed equal

Overall it's actually not a bad sounding DAC and can be pleasing in fact - until you do some direct A/B comparisons with other gear. Whether it's a higher or lower-tier DAC, you should be able to hear a difference. And in my case it was a much lower-tier DAC costing nearly just 1/4th the price and somewhere around 1/30th the size, yet blowing it out of the water on every single aspect. 





_This is an approximate comparison in size between the two units; the R-1 being my actual photo and using a stock photo of the Modi not having photographed them both together_

I did the almost daily comparisons using lossless copies of well mastered songs of multiple genres which I'm deeply familiar with allowing me to compare subtle details in texture, transient response, detail and soundstage of specific sections of specific songs. Finally at day 18 of burn-in with around 550 hours (including factory burn-in) I turned in my hat. Burn-in can improve audio gear a certain amount, usually a modest change if any but the chances of this unit morphing into a unicorn at this point were nil. So off it went to the used marketplace, to fund another DAC. I am leaning towards the Qutest DAC which comes from renowned Chord Electronics and since I no longer have the R-1, any comparisons will be unscientific and indirect, although I can still compare the incoming DAC to my Modi Multibit as a baseline for reference.

Indeed this was a non-standard comparison and even unfair to put a $250 transportable sized DAC up against an $890 desktop sized one, but that's what I happened to have to work with. And against my expectations, the former won resolutely and without fail in every aspect. Moreover *I am in no way heralding the Modi 2 Multibit DAC as the best out there*. It was just the DAC I was trying to beat, and have heard many of the top DACs at the dozen meets I've been to. Another member who is extremely reputable in the hobby had previously mentioned that the DAC in the R28 is an absolute horror-show, an awful piece that measures behind the original Modi 1 Multibit. And this is no ordinary hobbyist, but somebody who co-founded a competing forum, has a good following and has reviewed dozens of DACs and owns a Chord DAVE, RME ADI-2 DAC and turntables costing thousands. I wanted to say he was wrong, but finally I concede to his wisdom. They may say the Audio-GD products are not for everybody, but I think it has more to do with critical listening ability and how resolving your upstream gear is. If one has a good chain and knows what to listen for, the performance or lack there-of with this DAC should easy to discern.

As always, YMMV and certainly even this is not black & white, as some people may prefer this sound. One thing for sure though I would not label this as an endgame product, or even close to the Yggy.


----------



## jimmychan

Sorry to hear that, R1 is the low end product of Audio-gd.


----------



## PopZeus

Disagree somewhat about the R-1. I have the predecessor so assuming it didn't take a big step backward between iterations, take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I used to own the Modi Multibit and when I got the Focal Elex, it prompted me to upgrade my whole upstream rig. I much preferred the sound of my rig with the A-gd DAC over the Mimby, and that is a VERY revealing headphone. The Mimby and Elex combo was too dynamic, too extended in the highs and lows to sound natural or enjoyable for longer than a few minutes. With the R2R-1, the sound was natural, smooth, and still incredibly detailed. I prefer the stage and separation of the R2R-1 to the Modi Multibit.

So while I can see where you're coming from, I think the issue is more about pairing and taste? The Airst RDAC is a closer comparison to the Mimby and even then there are differences that feel more subjective than objective.


----------



## DecentLevi

It does sound like you have at least fairly resolving upstream gear so should be able to allow for a decent comparison between your DACs - even that your R-1 must sound pretty stellar. For some reason or another, my unit didn't sound so spectacular. Maybe the newer version wasn't as good or there was unit-to-unit variation. Taste and pairing isn't a major factor, being that my multiple comparisons with highly resolving equipment showed shortcomings on many aspects of the R-1 DAC. If mine had been more technically proficient, it would have impressed me more. And as mentioned, burn-in was already at 500+ hours so it wouldn't exactly be likely to morph into a whole other league with more hours on it. I'm sure on the other hand Audio-GD does have better DACs, and as well as I like some of their SS amps as well. This DAC didn't do it for me though.


----------



## aumont00

From my personal experience, audio gd dacs are not really made for critical listening, but for pleasure and musicality. As I mentionned in this thread, my schiit gumby was more detailed and less bloomy than my audio gd r28, however the gumby was not a good match with my speakers, it gave a very fatiguing experience.
Everything is a question of matching gears and taste. Its unfortunate that you dont like your r1.


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## sajunky

@DecentLevi. You should perhaps speak to the people before selling the unit. I own a basic model R2R11 and I must say, it is very sensitive to ground loops. I purchased R2R11 from a forum member who had very good opinion about this particular DAC. See a feedback here: https://www.avforums.co.za/index.php?topic=72848.0

When I put it in my system, it had a very grainy sound. Problem didn't go away after few hours, but I found a cause. It required reversing 2-pin Euro plug of the laptop PSU. A sound has changed immediately and after few hours it did sound perfect. I do switch a DAC off during a night and now it needs only half an hour to warm up, so the internal calibration seems needs to be finished *without any external disturbance*. This calibration process was shown on the botchered Amir test of R2R11. The unit thas trigered a small spike distortion every 25 seconds, see on the review. Due to the external disturbance a DAC was repetively triggering internal calibration which was never completed successfuly.

I am pretty sure your unit wasn't a lemon. A-GD is doing extensive tests after 100 hours of burning and I didn't see any user complains regarding quality control.

There are many ways to test ground loops. You have mentioned using reclockers/decrapifiers, but your ground loop could come through any other input or output. I am very sorry for you, that you didn't manage to fix a problem.

A-GD products from the upper shelf have all galvanic protection as required for the audiophiles without a technical knowledge. These entry level R2R11 and middle level R1/R28 do not. We poor guys have to be clever, to survive.


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## DecentLevi (Apr 12, 2020)

Well what I should have done is already last week's news. You can see on the most recent pages here I did ask for a lot of you guys input and tried everything you recommended at the time. In fact ground loop is not to blame here because it was connected to my top-tier power regenerator. The Furman IT Reference 15i Discrete Symmetrical AC Power Conditioner worth $2,600. You must be right I did not have a lemon because it did seem in pristine shape and flawless for what it's supposed to do, but in my opinion you the product itself is a lemon. To be fair it didn't sound bad at every iteration, as I mentioned it did sound fairly good on its own - up until I compared it to something that at least I perceived to sound superior. Even expectation bias was not to blame because I expected the R1 would sound better. And sometimes with the brightly mastered track on a bright electrostatic headphone system it did sound better in some regards, for more of a laid-back sound. But overall it's performance fell short of even my entry-level R2R DAC coming in at almost just a quarter of the price; its' lack of ability to present coherent images with instrument separation, large enough soundstage and transient response, to name a few. And I do know the hobby quite well having actually been active in some way or another since 2007 before joining and have tried numerous times the likes of Holo Audio Lv. 3, DAVE, Yggy 1 & 2, etc. And so at least I have the Mimby as future baseline of comparison when I get my next DAC.


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## sajunky (Apr 12, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> You can see on the most recent pages here I did ask for a lot of you guys input and tried everything you recommended at the time. In fact ground loop is not to blame here because it was connected to my top-tier power regenerator. The Furman IT Reference 15i Discrete Symmetrical AC Power Conditioner worth $2,600. You must be right I did not have a lemon because it did seem in pristine shape and flawless for what it's supposed to do, but in my opinion you *the product itself is a lemon*.


This is just generalisation, it cannot be accepted.

As for the power generator, it is good you have mentioned it, as it can be a cause. *There is another guy who believes in a magic of power generators.* He used such power generator with both TotalDAC and R2R11 measurement tests. When I asked a guy why it happens that there were strong traces of both 50Hz and 60Hz on the TotalDAC FFT, he had no answer on that. He blamed of course TotalDAC for ground loops, but he could blame only one 50Hz or 60Hz, not both. This is a truth. The other one was inherently a part of his measuring gear. You should start from a TotalDAC FFT graph, read discussion then jump to the R2R11 test, you will see the same pattern as on the TotalDAC.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/


----------



## DecentLevi

Noted but it would be interesting if cleaner power with lower noise / EMI / RFI would actually decrease performance on this DAC, while I have heard audible improvement with all other components. Anyway I have already sold the DAC last week and I'm moving on to something different.


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## sajunky

DecentLevi said:


> Noted but it would be interesting if cleaner power with lower noise / EMI / RFI would actually decrease performance on this DAC, while I have heard audible improvement with all other components. Anyway I have already sold the DAC last week and I'm moving on to something different.


Cleaner power gives secondary or even tertiary level of improvements, but introduced ground loop by such device can be devastating. If any problems you should disconnect such device to see whether it helped or not. This is my final point.


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## DecentLevi (Apr 12, 2020)

A ground loop issue would be indicative in the form of a buzz or hum which was definitely not present on any of my other components including amps, transformer, reclockers, not to mention no sign of any present on my DAC. You could be looking for confirmation that your entry-level DAC must sound good. This is my final post on the topic too.


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## sajunky

DecentLevi said:


> A ground loop issue would be indicative indicative in the form of a buzz or hum which was definitely not present on any of my other components including amps, transformer, reclockers, not to mention no sign of any present on my DAC.


Not true. It was true many years ago and may happen today. If you have any single SMPS (switching  mode power supply) in your system, ground loops extend above ultrasonic frequencies. In addition a large inductors in the power conditioner may affect negatively SMPS in your gear. A highly efficient SMPS with power factor correction (PFC) may even refuse to work. These are facts you must be aware of. If you didn't, just learn.


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## nghenhac

@*xenithon*
Did you receive your R28 back from GD? 
What was the problem?

Thank you.


----------



## muscleking

I searched the thread i think he said it's transformer problem. i wonder mine has transformer problem. so i got a broken one channel one for very cheap since the guy got refunded and get to purchase the unit after sending it in once and didn't fix anything. mine keeps burning one SMD resistor. Kingwa told me to replace a few SMD transistors. it's been a few months im still trying to collect tools and supplies from china to fix this lol. need hot air solder machine and liquid solder and replace a few caps which i got from kingwa and got the CS and CR resistors and still waiting for 1% resistor which kingwa sent me 5% ones. with COVID it takes a long time to come from china to canada. but it's coming. 

i looked at my reference 10.32 and there are zero smd components inside. making it heavier and bigger than r28 but then i am more confident their older stuff will last 10 years no problem. 

i been rolling portables and i am getting 90% satisfaction with all my headphones from portables these days. also using those as USB dac sounds just fine as well. 

really looking forward fixing mine though to compare with other things like the 10.32. 

to the guy having transformer problem: did it blow other components?




nghenhac said:


> @*xenithon*
> Did you receive your R28 back from GD?
> What was the problem?
> 
> Thank you.


----------



## nghenhac

muscleking said:


> I searched the thread i think he said it's transformer problem. i wonder mine has transformer problem. so i got a broken one channel one for very cheap since the guy got refunded and get to purchase the unit after sending it in once and didn't fix anything. mine keeps burning one SMD resistor. Kingwa told me to replace a few SMD transistors. it's been a few months im still trying to collect tools and supplies from china to fix this lol. need hot air solder machine and liquid solder and replace a few caps which i got from kingwa and got the CS and CR resistors and still waiting for 1% resistor which kingwa sent me 5% ones. with COVID it takes a long time to come from china to canada. but it's coming.
> 
> i looked at my reference 10.32 and there are zero smd components inside. making it heavier and bigger than r28 but then i am more confident their older stuff will last 10 years no problem.
> 
> ...


Thank you friend. 
So even though you bought it used, Kingwa still support you; that is pretty nice. 
I like to collect any problematic information before I jump on board.


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## muscleking

nghenhac said:


> Thank you friend.
> So even though you bought it used, Kingwa still support you; that is pretty nice.
> I like to collect any problematic information before I jump on board.



yeah this company support is good. i don't know for sure it's the owner replied me or employee, English is pretty good and response time is also very good. he mark up images for which components to replace and i think anyone works there loves electronics and what they do. 

i think you can shop around on audio mart for pcm1704uk audio gd type of dac. i been playing with audio for a long time and i still haven't find anything to beat the 10.32 yet. the 10.32 i have the previous owner updated to v7 firmware i think it's called and removed the usb module and put in amanero combo 384 to make the usb sound better. this pcm1704 sound just that much more enjoyable vs dacs like akm and ess. Maybe it's the amp. i connect the Node N100 and stream Tidal to the audio GD reference bypass the dac section and sounds pretty much the same lol. i think dac makes not too much difference these days. 

i use more with M11+hd800s going through the 4.4mm port. very happy with the sound. only think i don't like the audiogd is so darn huge. the r28 is pretty good a lot smaller than the 10.32 but still bigger than anything else. the old beyer a1 i got is super tiny vs these things. the R28 is less than half the weight of the 10.32, it does feel cheap vs the 10.32. 

so far the r28 i can run it with this split channel adapter to make put right channel into left and right signal. but sounds pretty bad. so hopefully once i fix it will sound comparable to the 10.32 then it's a keeper.


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## nghenhac

Yes, I agree with you on the size of the R28, its dimension is closed to 17" x 17". I pretty sure if I have the R28, it will takes up 80% of my mini desk .
Can you please explain what you meant here: "so far the r28 i can run it with this split channel adapter to make put right channel into left and right signal. but sounds pretty bad. so hopefully once i fix it will sound comparable to the 10.32 then it's a keeper. " Why do you need split channel adapter?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

@interweb-tech 
How does the R27 compares to the R28?
Any hugh changes?


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## Chris Kaoss (May 24, 2020)

muscleking said:


> yeah this company support is good. i don't know for sure it's the owner replied me or employee, English is pretty good and response time is also very good. he mark up images for which components to replace and i think anyone works there loves electronics and what they do.
> 
> i think you can shop around on audio mart for pcm1704uk audio gd type of dac. i been playing with audio for a long time and i still haven't find anything to beat the 10.32 yet. the 10.32 i have the previous owner updated to v7 firmware i think it's called and removed the usb module and put in amanero combo 384 to make the usb sound better. this pcm1704 sound just that much more enjoyable vs dacs like akm and ess. Maybe it's the amp. i connect the Node N100 and stream Tidal to the audio GD reference bypass the dac section and sounds pretty much the same lol. i think dac makes not too much difference these days.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the insight.
Glad the support is given this way.
Hopefully my R28 will last a long time, though. 

Btw., is the 10.32 that different from the 10.33 i've had?
Curious you're talking about the size of the 10.32 vs. R28. 
The 10.33 was 2/3 the size of the R28.


----------



## interweb-tech

Chris Kaoss said:


> @interweb-tech
> How does the R27 compares to the R28?
> Any hugh changes?



First huge change is the size. It's even bigger than R-28. It has taken over my desk lol. 

I want to say I hear a huge difference between them but truthfully the R-28 sounds so good it's hard to say the R-27 is better. Both are excellent. It's not an exponential change like I had moving from the R2R-11 to the NFB-28.38. Moving from the NFB-28.38 to the R-28 was a small improvement but more of a lateral move. Now with the R-27, I can be sure the amp section is a low noise and powerful as it can be.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

interweb-tech said:


> First huge change is the size. It's even bigger than R-28. It has taken over my desk lol.
> 
> I want to say I hear a huge difference between them but truthfully the R-28 sounds so good it's hard to say the R-27 is better. Both are excellent. It's not an exponential change like I had moving from the R2R-11 to the NFB-28.38. Moving from the NFB-28.38 to the R-28 was a small improvement but more of a lateral move. Now with the R-27, I can be sure the amp section is a low noise and powerful as it can be.


Thanks mate.
So i'll stay with my fully charged R-28.   
It drives my headphones and active speakers, the Elac Air-X 407, very well, clean and beyond my needs, i think. ^^


----------



## sajunky

I am not a fan of R28, I only own R2R11. For me when looking at the photos, R27 is bigger than you think.

R27 takes no space/cost saving approach. With three large R-core transformers the two analog channels can be fully separated from themselves and from a digital section. A physical layout is partitioned in sections, each partition is shielded by a thick wall. In R28 there is no such partitioning (only transformers section has a thin wall). There are more power regulators and the analog amp section is copying Master 9 high-end design. 

There are also significant differences in a DAC section. DA-7 module (now in a V2 version) is essentially a dual DA-8 module on a single PC-board. While DA-8 modules are more flexible, as it allows to build a low cost single-ended design like R2R11, dual DA-8 module do not bring the same benefits for a balanced design of R28. A single board version takes an advantage of a common ground plane, it should give better rejection of THD and noise. You should also notice that DA-7 modules are enclosed in cages.

Also in the FPGA/DSP section there is no such things which I could call  "R28 on stereoids". All differences are in a solid design and attention to details, not something that would be addressed to enthusiasts. I can't say nothing more significant than: *R27 is your end game combo, while it doesn't cost 3-times more*.

When comparing to others, a strong feature of both R28/R27 is a full configurability in terms of chosing OS/NOS, PLL and digital filters. Denafrips by example only allows a limited options.


----------



## muscleking

Chris Kaoss said:


> Thank you for the insight.
> Glad the support is given this way.
> Hopefully my R28 will last a long time, though.
> 
> ...



hey dude

so yeah the 10.32 was 1850 bucks at the time and uses 4x 1704uk chips. i just looked up 10.33 and it's delta sigma i think. didn't know 10.33 until you mentioned it : )

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Reference10/RE10EN.htm

so mine is called 10.384 now haha.


----------



## ToddRaymond

interweb-tech said:


> First huge change is the size. It's even bigger than R-28. It has taken over my desk lol.
> 
> I want to say I hear a huge difference between them but truthfully the R-28 sounds so good it's hard to say the R-27 is better. Both are excellent. It's not an exponential change like I had moving from the R2R-11 to the NFB-28.38. Moving from the NFB-28.38 to the R-28 was a small improvement but more of a lateral move. Now with the R-27, I can be sure the amp section is a low noise and powerful as it can be.



Your thoughts have kind of put me at ease for the time being, in terms of my feeling of wishing I would've waited a bit longer to make my purchase – once the R-27 became available, that is.  I'm still very much enjoying my R-28 to dual Precision 3S setup.  Having said that, now that I've upgraded my speakers, I'm certainly curious what moving up to fancier and schmancier Audio-gd stuffs could bring.  I keep going back and forth between considering an R-27 and a pair of Master-2Hs, or just waiting until I can get an R-7HE and HE-9 to go up with M2H.  I'm probably better off just waiting until I can go all the way to the top.


----------



## High flier

Hi everyone I have r2r11 and I love it. I wonder how much better is r28?


----------



## JaMo

I have the first gen of the R28 and it sure is a big brother to the R11. It is the middle class of the R2R-dacs. Good dac and powerful for driving headphones. Very enjoyable.
I can recommend it as a good upgrade. I haven't had any chance to listen to the later R28 with two transformers but I am sure it is a solid dac.
Good luck.
/Jan


----------



## High flier

JaMo said:


> I have the first gen of the R28 and it sure is a big brother to the R11. It is the middle class of the R2R-dacs. Good dac and powerful for driving headphones. Very enjoyable.
> I can recommend it as a good upgrade. I haven't had any chance to listen to the later R28 with two transformers but I am sure it is a solid dac.
> Good luck.
> /Jan


Thanks I want to make sure its a significant upgrade if I'm going to spend 1200+ I bought rme before and didn't enjoy it as much.


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## sajunky (May 29, 2020)

High flier said:


> Thanks I want to make sure its a significant upgrade if I'm going to spend 1200+ I bought rme before and didn't enjoy it as much.


It depends. R2R11 may sound fantastic. On the other system ground loops can ruin the internal calibration process and then the higher priced R28 with better protection (especially a new version with dual transformers) will show a difference of a magnitute. If ground loops or power noise do not affect your system, a difference can be minimal. A new version of R2R11 receives the same upgraded DA-8 modules.

This is what you always get better with R28:

1. A balanced DAC (two DA-8 modules per channel) cancel some type of distortions.

2. Better headphone amplifier. There are members who claim it control bas of HD600 much better. I am not sure about it, as I own HD600 paired with R2R11 and I can't imagine it can be any better.

3. Better jitter rejection in the CPLD FIFO circuit. R2R11 depends entirely on the Amanero module.

4. A choice of oversampling and filters, including (3)?  filters for NOS mode. Those who listen a lot to the modern music mastered for delta-sigma converters prefer 8x oversampling mode. I would always chose NOS sans digital filter for classical, jazz and acoustic pop/rock. It gives the most natural harmonics, the closest to the life performance. You have it on R2R11.

5. More interface ports.

R2R11 is an enormous value product. I can call it a bite. A something that opens your mind to the high-end Audio GD products.

R28 is overpriced in my opinion. It has still a good value comparing to the competitors, but I take it on the ladder of A-GD products.

R27 is your end game and it doesn't cost 3-times more than R28, unlike competitors.

In other words, the best value is R2R11, then R27.


----------



## High flier

sajunky said:


> It depends. R2R11 may sound fantastic. On the other system ground loops can ruin the internal calibration process and then the higher priced R28 with better protection (especially a new version with dual transformers) will show a difference of a magnitute. If ground loops or power noise do not affect your system, a difference can be minimal. A new version of R2R11 receives the same upgraded DA-8 modules.
> 
> This is what you always get better with R28:
> 
> ...


Wow thank you so much for the explanation maybe I just get r27 instead just to be sure money well spend 
I don't think I have group loop problem since r2r11 sounds pretty good in my system do you have any audio gd dac recommend in place of r2r11? I have tube amp speakers system that I want to use with


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## muscleking

the r27 inside looks like my reference 10.32. i don't bother buying new these days. i picked up the 10.32 for 850 USD. can't go wrong with that price. many years old so far no problem at all. i think the DA-8 chip is their version of the 1704UK. psychologically when you listen to something that is "rare" like the chip make you think it sounds better lol. but no seriously it does. im thinking about trading my 10.32 to a hdv800 Sennheier dac/amp. but i am pretty sure it's gonna be a downgrade.


----------



## sajunky

High flier said:


> Wow thank you so much for the explanation maybe I just get r27 instead just to be sure money well spend
> I don't think I have group loop problem since r2r11 sounds pretty good in my system do you have any audio gd dac recommend in place of r2r11? I have tube amp speakers system that I want to use with


Sorry, I am not an audiophile expert. I gave my recomendation based on how the device is built. I do assess a value from a technical point of view. I also don't know whether you will use headphone amplifier. If not, there is a R7 model (without HPA), built similar to R27 but I see it is more expensive that R27! And a HE version!!! A few posts before another member @ToddRaymond has more specific plans in this range, I didn't research more.

Clock options are important in my opinion. Having said that I haven't had a problem with jitter when playing 192kHz files on R2R11. 

Maybe you should arrange a listening test before purchasing. A tube amp is pairing wery well with R2R11. I wouldn't look any further.


----------



## High flier

I'll do more research  thanks for your help


----------



## motberg

sajunky said:


> It depends. R2R11 may sound fantastic. On the other system ground loops can ruin the internal calibration process and then the higher priced R28 with better protection (especially a new version with dual transformers) will show a difference of a magnitute. If ground loops or power noise do not affect your system, a difference can be minimal. A new version of R2R11 receives the same upgraded DA-8 modules.
> 
> This is what you always get better with R28:
> 
> ...


Good list, I would add the volume control implementation is a technical upgrade over the R2R11 (I am using my R2R11 as DAC only, with other passive vol. control) amazing sound.  After break in I prefer it over the Gustard A20H and Topping D70 I recently had in my system. Agreed also that the various filters mentioned above could have very high value for system matching.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 5, 2020)

motberg said:


> Good list, I would add the volume control implementation is a technical upgrade over the R2R11 (I am using my R2R11 as DAC only, with other passive vol. control) amazing sound.  After break in I prefer it over the Gustard A20H and Topping D70 I recently had in my system. Agreed also that the various filters mentioned above could have very high value for system matching.


Oh, of course, thank you for the point. R28 has a digital volume control, giving 0.05% matching level. There are two blocks of relays (as seen on photos), 14 relays per channel (28 in total), these are not cheap semiconductor switches. It ads to a BOM cost around $200, my value estimation was wrong, sorry.

[EDIT]: And R27 has an analog volume control like R2R11!


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Indeed.
It's an exceptional device.
I don't think i'd make a hugh step from R28( fully loaded ) to the newer R27.
I like it on both, my headphones and my active speakers.
Sounds awesome.


----------



## Nickol

Colleagues, teel me, please, is there any difference between the Crystek and Accusilicon clocks femtosecond crystal oscillator?


----------



## sajunky

Nickol said:


> Colleagues, teel me, please, is there any difference between the Crystek and Accusilicon clocks femtosecond crystal oscillator?


A main difference is in spectrum density of noise. One has less noise in HF, the other in the acoustic frequency range. It is why Mr. Kingwa offer an option for Crystek for the USB interface and Accusilicon for a system clock and a DAC.


----------



## Igor375375

Hello. I want to buy Audio-GD - R28 2020. There is no such experience with external DACs. I mainly listen to SACD (SACD-R) on Cambridge Audio Azur 751. I want to listen to SACD-R via PC USB -> FOOBAR2000 (JRIVER) -> Audio-GD - R28-> balanced beyerdynamic t5p headphones (and on an integrated amplifier).
Dear owners of the R2R DAC, please advise, Audio-GD - R28 2020 interacts (reproduces) the DSD format well? Or is it better to take Audio-GD - D28 on the ES9038Pro chip for this configuration?
I will be glad to all the recommendations and clarifications.
Thanks in advance for your answers.


----------



## Jandu

Difference between the R28 and the chipped dac are, I quote:
---------------------------------------------------
They are not which is better but most different on the flavor and worth owning both, just like you own some different headphones. 
Chipped DAC sound detail, dynamic, control but not bright and hash. 
R28 had the  exotic sound quality! Smooth, coherent and analogue, it had not emphasize anythings but had not miss.
E.g : You can image the D28 like a high defined digital photo but the R28 is like a real oil painting.
----------------------------------------------------

The above quote is from Kingwa, the designer for Audio GD.


----------



## Igor375375

Jandu said:


> E.g : You can image the D28 like a high defined digital photo but the R28 is like a real oil painting.


Thank you, an interesting comparison) And with the DSD, does the R28 have problems?


----------



## Jandu

Igor375375 said:


> Thank you, an interesting comparison) And with the DSD, does the R28 have problems?



My earlier, original r28, does not have any problem playing DSF files up to 128 using foobar2000 or RPi. I don't have any sources above that.


----------



## Igor375375 (Jul 15, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Jandu, сообщение: 15740729, участник: 157799"
Thank )))


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Jul 15, 2020)

Take a moment.
I'll test it for you right at the moment. 

Edit:
Uapp's saying USB Dac 352.8kHz out of DSD 11.2MHz.
But it does playing well. 

Playing now out of the V30 to the R28 through USB:


----------



## sajunky

@ Igor375375. You will find that with R28 listening to PCM files gives different experience. Even standard CD quality tracks will sound more convincing than DSD. Hi-res 24/96kHz already beat DSD64 (SACD) format. Currently there is more hi-res music available for download than SACD.


----------



## Igor375375

Chris Kaoss said:


> Take a moment.
> I'll test it for you right at the moment.
> 
> Edit:
> ...


Thank )))


----------



## Igor375375

sajunky said:


> @ Igor375375. You will find that with R28 listening to PCM files gives different experience. Even standard CD quality tracks will sound more convincing than DSD. Hi-res 24/96kHz already beat DSD64 (SACD) format. Currently there is more hi-res music available for download than SACD.


This is basically understandable, but I have a collection of about 2 Tbytе SACD-R, and I like them 😂


----------



## sajunky

Chris Kaoss said:


> Take a moment.
> I'll test it for you right at the moment.
> 
> Edit:
> ...


A standard DSD64 generate 176.4 kHz PCM frame rate. This is DSD128 with such PCM frame rate. It is translated to 5.6MHz, not 11.2MHz. It would be DSD256.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

sajunky said:


> A standard DSD64 generate 176.4 kHz PCM frame rate. This is DSD128 with such PCM frame rate. It is translated to 5.6MHz, not 11.2MHz. It would be DSD256.


It was a fault of Uapp, i guess.
Played a redbook file right before the dsf file. Uapp got problems switching to the right displayed sample rate between different formats.

First dsd was the 11.2MHz file, second was a 5.6 one. 

But thanks for heading up with.


----------



## Igor375375 (Jul 15, 2020)

my friends) after reading carefully the thread, such a question arose for all users of Kingwa products, what is wrong with amanero combo 384 usb interface ?
I do not need a separate USB interface, if everything is so bad with Amanero, I would rather buy Singxer SDA-2, there are no bad reviews at all. After all, everyone is putting on the Singxer SU-1.
Your opinion ?


----------



## ProLoL

Igor375375 said:


> my friends) after reading carefully the thread, such a question arose for all users of Kingwa products, what is wrong with amanero combo 384 usb interface ?
> I do not need a separate USB interface, if everything is so bad with Amanero, I would rather buy Singxer SDA-2, there are no bad reviews at all. After all, everyone is putting on the Singxer SU-1.
> Your opinion ?



Kingwa's amanero is a stellar, specially the isolated one.


----------



## Igor375375 (Jul 15, 2020)

[QUOTE = "ProLoL, post: 15741444, member: 467751"]
Why then connect a PC via USB with Amanero via Singxer SU-1? A lot of people above in the branch do this.


----------



## motberg

I compared isolated/clock upgrade Amanero in R1 directly against SU-1 fed with very good supercapacitor LT3045 regulated 5v via i2s.. the sound was very close but I think most folks would prefer the possible subtle additional refinement offered by the Amanero direct... but I doubt I would be able to tell them apart in blind testing.


----------



## Igor375375

motberg said:


> I compared isolated/clock upgrade Amanero in R1 directly against SU-1 fed with very good supercapacitor LT3045 regulated 5v via i2s.. the sound was very close but I think most folks would prefer the possible subtle additional refinement offered by the Amanero direct... but I doubt I would be able to tell them apart in blind testing.


Thank you) I will think 🖖


----------



## Igor375375

motberg said:


> Amanero direct


Does Amanero have any problems with drivers for Windows 10?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

No problems so far with my Surface Pro 7 on Win10.
Also the Usb connection with Amanero is quite good without any flaws.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 16, 2020)

Igor375375 said:


> Does Amanero have any problems with drivers for Windows 10?


You heard problems with Amanero when Windows finally added UAC2.0 drivers to the latest built. It was problem witth Windows, not Amanero. Now is fixed.

Amanero device works plug&play with the latest version of Win10 using UAC2.0 standard (built-in drivers). DSD files also play without Amanero drivers using DoP transfers. It is Foobar's default with SACD plugin. You have to configure Windows WASAPI interface in the exclusive bit-perfect mode, otherwise DSD files won't play at all.

For easy configuration install Amanero drivers and play through the ASIO interface. With ASIO you can also setup native DSD transfers (instead of encapsulating in PCM frames - called DoP), but it require installing a proxy driver, it can be problematic too.


----------



## Igor375375

sajunky said:


> You heard problems with Amanero when Windows finally added UAC2.0 drivers to the latest built. It was problem witth Windows, not Amanero. Now is fixed.
> 
> Amanero device works plug&play with the latest version of Win10 using UAC2.0 standard (built-in drivers). DSD files also play without Amanero drivers using DoP transfers. It is Foobar's default with SACD plugin. You have to configure Windows WASAPI interface in the exclusive bit-perfect mode, otherwise DSD files won't play at all.
> 
> For easy configuration install Amanero drivers and play through the ASIO interface. With ASIO you can also setup native DSD transfers (instead of encapsulating in PCM frames - called DoP), but it require installing a proxy driver, it can be problematic too.


Thank. On the Amanero website, there is still such a driver for Windows, can it be installed? 
https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
"native DSD512 Linux/Windows firmware_2006be1x"
or a driver from the Audio DG website?


----------



## sajunky (Jul 16, 2020)

Not, it is firmware update. I can't find a link for you, as load shedding hit my area in 5 minutes. A link to the Amanero you find on the Audio GD website, I think.


----------



## Igor375375

sajunky said:


> Not, it is firmware update. I can't find a link for you, as load shedding hits my area in 5 minutes. A link to the Amanero you find on the Audio GD website, I think.


Thank you, understood)))


----------



## Mizicke5273

New owner of a R-28 2018 version that I purchased from a member here.  I had been thinking about getting a new amp to pair with my LDC-2C, as recently I began to view them as a bit lifeless and lacking bass from my Gungnir D/S/Jotunheim combo.  I initially looked at just the NFB-1 amp, but discovered the R-28 that had the same amp section and a great R2R DAC.  So, I decided to pick it up when I saw an ad in the For Sale section; this way I can check to see if it is the Jot or the Gungnir D/S that I no longer like with the LCD-2C.  I was also curious how an Audio-GD DAC and amp compares to my Schiit gear.  Not to mention an R2R DAC.  

It's funny, I originally preferred my LDC-2C out of the Jot, as opposed to my La Figaro tube amp.  But when I started to view the LCD-2C as lifeless, I tried them out of the La Figaro again and found I liked them better than the Jot pairing.  Guess my tasted has changed some.

Been listening to just the R-28 itself the last few days and finally switched to NOS Mode 3 last night.  I have really been enjoying the R-28, comes close to the Gungnir and La Figaro, which is great for the hot summer months.  As my La Figaro puts out a lot of heat.  Consider me a fan of the R-28!  I'm looking forward to trying the DAC section with my Jot and La Figaro, but for now I am just getting acquainted with the R-28 by itself.


----------



## Jandu

Mizicke5273 said:


> New owner of a R-28 2018 version that I purchased from .......




I have the original R28 as well. A few things you may consider, which to my system, improve the sound.

.If you are using a normal PC as transport, switch to a RPi based transport
.Consider adding the DI20 with I2S to R28
.a good power cable
.do a firmware update, if you are still on an older version


----------



## Mizicke5273

Jandu said:


> I have the original R28 as well. A few things you may consider, which to my system, improve the sound.
> 
> .If you are using a normal PC as transport, switch to a RPi based transport
> .Consider adding the DI20 with I2S to R28
> ...



So question about your first two points, what is the need to do both?  My understanding about switching to a RPi Transport, is to add a HAT that utilizes a connection other than USB.  Same with adding a DDC, Digital Interface, or USB to SPDIF devices are to get off USB as well.  So is there a point to do both?  I have an Etir connected to my Gungnir, which I may try with the R-28 at some point.  Although, I don't think I can tell the difference between the Schiit Gen2/3 USB in my Gungnir vs the Gen5 in the Etir.  

What would you consider a good power cable?  I can't see paying more than ~$70 for a power cable and that is even pushing it.  I'd be far more comfortable at about $30.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Firmware is at stock, which I think would be v1, as the previous owner never upgraded it.  It is something I'll look into eventually.


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 17, 2020)

Mizicke5273 said:


> The new owner of the R-28 2018 version, St.


Congratulations ... and I ordered Singxer SDA-2, I'm waiting here)))


----------



## Jandu (Aug 17, 2020)

Pls delete


----------



## Jandu

You can use a RPi 4B to directly connect, using USB, from the RPi, to your DAC or going thru DI20. Software such as MoOde or piCorePlayer will provide your GUI.

Using RPi -> USB -> DI20 -> HDMI (I2S) - > R28

One of the best way to get a good power cable is DIY. Most of mine are done that way. 

There is a sizable difference between the stock firmware and one of the later/latest version, at least to my system.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 17, 2020)

@Mizicke5273. Congratulation! Ignore all suggestion, unless you need to improve things further. It can be not worth after all. Enjoy music!

The only things I would follow is firmware upgrade on the Amanero interface and then if you received firmware blaster, upgrade FPGA firmware to fix DSD noise.


----------



## gLer

With a PC or Mac as a source it's advisable to convert away from USB - or at least add a USB conditioner inline - for ANY DAC, not just the R-28 (I have mine fed by a Matrix X-SPDIF 2 from a Mac mini, using I2S into the R-28, and the noise reduction is audible - you don't know what you're hearing until it's not there any more). But even if you soldier on with USB, definitely update to the latest firmware. It's superb, and changes the sound of the R-28 for the better.


----------



## thebkt

If your R28 has the usb isolator upgrade then any USB cleaning measures will be negligible. I have the eitr connected to my mimby and it makes a world of difference, but eitr into my R2R1 makes no difference. 

I did hear a difference comparable to what gler described when I got 14awg (I believe) power cables for the NFB & R2R.


----------



## sajunky

Guys. All improvements are fine if there is a reason for. Sanity check, please


----------



## interweb-tech

I have the R27 with all the 2020 upgrades (includes usb isolater & psu). When asked if the DI20HE would be of any benefit, Kingwa advised me that it would not make a discernible difference. I was trying to give him another $1k and he advised against it.


----------



## gLer

sajunky said:


> Guys. All improvements are fine if there is a reason for. Sanity check, please


There are very valid reasons for the tweaks being suggested. They are being suggested by R-28 users who have tried them and heard the difference. Most of these tweaks have been advised by Kingwa as well. 

If you own an R-28, have done some of the tweaks, and heard no difference, feel free to share your experience.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

I guess there's a difference between a former R28 and a fully loaded 19/20 or upgraded model.
First, try the latest firmware and a powered usb-hub and hear the change, as @gLer mentioned above.
It'll be worth it.

I'm fine with it.


----------



## Mizicke5273

I'm not planning on any major changes for the time being; gathering the info that is provided though.  I want to get familiar with the R-28 as it is.  Yeah, I always use a Powered USB Hub for anything more than an easily accessible way to plug in thumb drives.  

As for Firmware, what is everyone using?  Is the latest, v3, the most recommended?  If I wanted to revert to the stock Firmware, would I also have to get that from Kingwa?


----------



## gLer

Mizicke5273 said:


> I'm not planning on any major changes for the time being; gathering the info that is provided though.  I want to get familiar with the R-28 as it is.  Yeah, I always use a Powered USB Hub for anything more than an easily accessible way to plug in thumb drives.
> 
> As for Firmware, what is everyone using?  Is the latest, v3, the most recommended?  If I wanted to revert to the stock Firmware, would I also have to get that from Kingwa?


The latest (2020 version) is highly recommended.


----------



## Mizicke5273

gLer said:


> The latest (2020 version) is highly recommended.



You've got a 2018 model like me, correct?  The 2020 Firmware is compatible with the 2018 unit then?  Are there multiple "flavors" of the 2020 Firmware like there was with v3?


----------



## Jandu

Mizicke5273 said:


> You've got a 2018 model like me, correct?  The 2020 Firmware is compatible with the 2018 unit then?  Are there multiple "flavors" of the 2020 Firmware like there was with v3?



The original R28 is compatible with the latest firmware. The latest 2020 version, is the version which I find is the best sounding on my system.


----------



## gLer

Mizicke5273 said:


> You've got a 2018 model like me, correct?  The 2020 Firmware is compatible with the 2018 unit then?  Are there multiple "flavors" of the 2020 Firmware like there was with v3?


What @Jandu said. Only one version. No more multiple NOS modes, just one. Also a mode to emulate a very famous Philips DAC (which makes the sound a touch smoother if that's how you like it - I do and have the option enabled). Just sounds more refined all-round. Very 'organic', which is what this DAC and amp combo is all about. 

As an aside I compared the amp in the R-28 to the new 'hype amp' the Topping A90. Wasn't a fan of the A90. It makes everything sound sharper and more clinical - exactly what I don't want my music to sound like. As always, YMMV.


----------



## Mizicke5273

gLer said:


> What @Jandu said. Only one version. No more multiple NOS modes, just one. Also a mode to emulate a very famous Philips DAC (which makes the sound a touch smoother if that's how you like it - I do and have the option enabled). Just sounds more refined all-round. Very 'organic', which is what this DAC and amp combo is all about.
> 
> As an aside I compared the amp in the R-28 to the new 'hype amp' the Topping A90. Wasn't a fan of the A90. It makes everything sound sharper and more clinical - exactly what I don't want my music to sound like. As always, YMMV.



On the new 2020 Firmware, which NOS mode of the three original remain?  Or is it something new that blends them?  How does the Jumper settings change with the new Firmware, is there a new table around?  Do you use a jumper setting to enable the new emulation mode?  Better yet, are these changes documented somewhere I could review?


----------



## gLer

Mizicke5273 said:


> On the new 2020 Firmware, which NOS mode of the three original remain?  Or is it something new that blends them?  How does the Jumper settings change with the new Firmware, is there a new table around?  Do you use a jumper setting to enable the new emulation mode?  Better yet, are these changes documented somewhere I could review?


The new NOS mode blends all previous modes. If you want the sound to be more neutral, enable OS 2x, 4x or 8x (the higher the oversampling, the more neutral and less smooth the sound becomes). Remember these are all subtle tweaks, not night-and-day changes. 

All the jumper settings are included in the user guide that's sent with the firmware files. If you don't have them, you can download them from my Dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cihwmxg0jj5v2ln/AAAddYcANnPZt7anlUw1A7bGa?dl=0 

Good luck!


----------



## Cat Music

Jandu said:


> I have the original R28 as well. A few things you may consider, which to my system, improve the sound.
> 
> .If you are using a normal PC as transport, switch to a RPi based transport
> .Consider adding the DI20 with I2S to R28
> ...


If I buy the R28 version 2020, then I will no longer have to do all those updates indicated in your experience?


----------



## gLer

Cat Music said:


> If I buy the R28 version 2020, then I will no longer have to do all those updates indicated in your experience?


It should come with the latest firmware installed, so then it's just a matter of choosing a 'flavour' (like OS/NOS etc.). I believe this can be done from the front panel without jumper settings on the 2020 R-28, though I'm not sure. You should still get the USB isolator upgrade option if you want to avoid converting or cleaning up your USB input from source. And a good power cable is always recommended.


----------



## Mizicke5273

gLer said:


> The new NOS mode blends all previous modes. If you want the sound to be more neutral, enable OS 2x, 4x or 8x (the higher the oversampling, the more neutral and less smooth the sound becomes). Remember these are all subtle tweaks, not night-and-day changes.
> 
> All the jumper settings are included in the user guide that's sent with the firmware files. If you don't have them, you can download them from my Dropbox:
> 
> ...



Awesome, thank you!  I'll download that and make note of it for when I decide to upgrade the Firmware.


----------



## Cat Music

gLer said:


> It should come with the latest firmware installed, so then it's just a matter of choosing a 'flavour' (like OS/NOS etc.). I believe this can be done from the front panel without jumper settings on the 2020 R-28, though I'm not sure. You should still get the USB isolator upgrade option if you want to avoid converting or cleaning up your USB input from source. And a good power cable is always recommended.


If I use the power cable that comes with the R28, will I be missing something?


----------



## gLer

Cat Music said:


> If I use the power cable that comes with the R28, will I be missing something?


Not much, but it also depends on how clean your power source is. We're talking very subtle differences.


----------



## thebkt

Cat Music said:


> If I use the power cable that comes with the R28, will I be missing something?


I noticed a subtle, audible increase in transparency by getting shielded power cables for my NFB/R2R.  I wouldn't lose sleep over it, or buy a cable new... it's not much of a change.  I was fortunate and got two Pangea cables for $100CAD.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Hi @gLer.  May I ask which version of the firmware you were using prior the latest version?  I'm still using V3A, and am enjoying it.  I still need to install Windows on my Mac in order to perform the update.  I'm just hoping I don't lose anything in the way of details/resolution with the new firmware.  Thanks!


----------



## gLer

ToddRaymond said:


> Hi @gLer.  May I ask which version of the firmware you were using prior the latest version?  I'm still using V3A, and am enjoying it.  I still need to install Windows on my Mac in order to perform the update.  I'm just hoping I don't lose anything in the way of details/resolution with the new firmware.  Thanks!


Hi, I believe I was using V3 as well. The latest firmware is unquestionably the best. No loss in resolution for me.


----------



## ToddRaymond

gLer said:


> Hi, I believe I was using V3 as well. The latest firmware is unquestionably the best. No loss in resolution for me.



Thanks for the reply!  Do you know if you were using V3A (accurate) or V3S (smooth) version?  I just don't want to lose any resolution.


----------



## gLer

ToddRaymond said:


> Thanks for the reply!  Do you know if you were using V3A (accurate) or V3S (smooth) version?  I just don't want to lose any resolution.


There is only one version of the latest 2020 firmware if I recall. Previous to that I was using smooth.


----------



## maxzi

Does someone had the opportunity to compare R28 with Burson Conductor 3X Performance?


----------



## musicinmymind

How does this compare with Lyr 3


----------



## AudioAlex

Is there any possibility to switch on the Display Auto Dark option without opening the box and playing with jumpers? How does it work in general? What is the timing? Can it be adjusted?

Thanks


----------



## Chris Kaoss

If you have the option to adjust the settings by the front plate, yes.
It was delivered since the 2018 version.


----------



## AudioAlex

AudioAlex said:


> Is there any possibility to switch on the Display Auto Dark option without opening the box and playing with jumpers? How does it work in general? What is the timing? Can it be adjusted?
> 
> Thanks



I reply to my own question in case someone else needs it. I checked with Kingwa and below is his instruction:


Push the "OUT" button once, when the left 1st display blinking, push the "OUT" again to go into the setting menu.
Push the "OUT" 4 times , the Right 1st display blinking, push the "Input" button let the display change from 0 to 1.

Worked for me.

Is there any other useful options (apart from OS - NOS settings) that one can adjust using the front plate buttons?


----------



## Vandal

What is the main difference between the R27 & R28 in terms of listening? There is a massive difference in price, does that equate to the sound?


----------



## Jandu

Vandal said:


> What is the main difference between the R27 & R28 in terms of listening? There is a massive difference in price, does that equate to the sound?



I believe the R27 has the Pure Class A Preamp and HeadAmp for the amp section(similiar to the Master 9) where as R28 is not Class A. On the DAC section R27 has the R8 DAC module and R28 has the R1 module.

So, if your headphones are up to the resolution and the rest of the audio chain is up to the task, R27 will give you better sounding music.


----------



## sajunky

Jandu said:


> I believe the R27 has the Pure Class A Preamp and HeadAmp for the amp section(similiar to the Master 9) where as R28 is not Class A. On the DAC section R27 has the R8 DAC module and R28 has the R1 module.


R27 = Master 9 + R8 DAC
R28 = NFB-1AMP + R1 DAC

Both amps are pure class A, but based on a different design.


----------



## Jandu

sajunky said:


> R27 = Master 9 + R8 DAC
> R28 = NFB-1AMP + R1 DAC
> 
> Both amps are pure class A, but based on a different design.




Thanks for the corrections, didn't know my R28 is pure Class A, since the current draw during idle is quite low which normally is not a characteristic of a pure Class A design.


----------



## sajunky

Kingwa use specific configuration called diamond differential. It is known for many years, but not many designers were successful due to the complexity. Kingwa likes technical challenges, ACSS is another example. Diamond configuration allows a lower bias current in class A, it is used in R28, there is no space in this compact package for larger radiators. It still delivers 9.5W @25 Ohms, but a minimum load impedance is limited to 15 Ohms due to heat on one side and probably transition to class AB starts at this point.

R27 also use diamond configuration, but radiators are much bigger. This is Master series after all, there are no clever cuts.


----------



## Vandal

Jandu said:


> I believe the R27 has the Pure Class A Preamp and HeadAmp for the amp section(similiar to the Master 9) where as R28 is not Class A. On the DAC section R27 has the R8 DAC module and R28 has the R1 module.
> 
> So, if your headphones are up to the resolution and the rest of the audio chain is up to the task, R27 will give you better sounding music.


thank you very much


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill

How do you think this will pair with a Denon Ahd-7200? Is it "too much?"


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Lu Mazzmarill said:


> How do you think this will pair with a Denon Ahd-7200? Is it "too much?"


Perfectly, i'd say.
Make use of OS8 and it's great, imo.


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill (Dec 1, 2020)

Why OS8? Is it the best with those cans? I Heard os8 gas the best separati on between instruments. Did you try it? 😊


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Yes, it will.
I for my like it better than NOS with the D7200.
But that's also a subtle change and depends on the music you're listening to.
NOS is the filter to go with the D9200, i guess.
But i have to listen with the D9200 a bit more.
They've arrived on monday.


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill

At what volume and gain do you use them with the R28?


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Dec 2, 2020)

Hi.
The volume characteristic between different models of the R28 is different also, regarding to Kingwa's website.

Mine has a super exponential one, which is quite different from linear ones.
I do listen at high gain between 55 and 65 out of 99.
No matter what headphone is connected.
I guess my R28 adjusts the power for volume output and is not depending on the connected headphone.

Even with the T1.2, which is a 600r beast, my volume setting doesn't exceed 65.


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill

Thank you so much! How about sound quality of the DAC? Does it jam good with the Denon?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

This is one thing i've to evaluate.
But i've no doubts when it comes to the sound quality of the R28. 
Maybe there could be something about synergy, which should be a problem, i guess.
Will report on that behavior after the weekend.
At the moment, the D7200 and D9200 are running on my Chord Mojo simultaneously.


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill

Can't wait to read your impressions.

Has anyone tried the R28 with a ZMF headphone? What kind of closed can do you think will pair better? And what about Focal?


----------



## barbz127

Also interested to know how these pair with ZmF headphones..I own an Atticus and verite and considering simplifying my setup


----------



## Mizicke5273

I have a 2018 R-28 and an Aeolus.  They pair well to me and sound as good as my Schiit Gungnir D/S and Jotunheim with the Aeolus.


----------



## Sound Eq (Dec 8, 2020)

hi i would like to get some reference please what i should expect from R28 in comparison to ifi ican pro and hugo2 as a dac

which would be more musical, fuller sounding

Its so difficult to get into buying blindly so your input would really help, would the R28 be in the same bracket of sound quality that is full, engaging, and has good bass, mids and highs with good sound stage like the ifi ican pro with hugo 2, or would the R28 be something duller with less impact that ifi ican pro with hugo 2

I had the chord tt2, which was amazing with audeze cans and to an extent with hifiman he1000v1, but made a mistake selling it. But I remember I used to really enjoy ifi ican pro with hugo 2 as dac, but I keep reading about r2r dacs, and I am really interested in R28, but I do not want to get surprised that I will get a flat boring sound suing my hifiman he1000 v2, or something that will be analytical cold. I have other headphones besides hifiman he1000v1, but the he1000v1 is the one that needs needs most power among my collection

In general I am after an amp/dac is full, organic, big sounding, that creates a lush sound. Especially for the vocals to be full and organic and layered, supplemented with a great tight bass


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Tough question.
I didn't got the opportunity to listen to the hugo 2 nor the Pro iCan, sadly.
So i can't give you an insight nor make an assumption.
Also i'm not familiar with the HEK.

What i can say for sure is, if you're heading for an organic lush sound, the R28/ R27 doesn't disappoint. 
Even the Mojo isn't capable to create this, or the Atoll HD100, MF MX-HPA, Moon Neo 430 HAD, Cocktail Audio X45, which i've auditioned in the past month's/ year.
But the market is hugh and so much things to explore. 

Of course, this is all my opinion and experience on my hunt for my preferred "sound signature". 
So just take it with a grain of salt.
I for my, haven't found a real competitor in this price range which fulfills all my needs in an AIO.
Was looking at the iCan as well, but the connectivity of it is not suitable for me.

While i know that it is hardly possible to audition a R28 somewhere near, one have to do.

Beside that, the amp in the R28 is really capable for mostly anything.
High praises, i know.
But it's bc the R28 the whole package for my needs.
R2R, hugh amp section, truly balanced design, drive my headphones with ease and is connected to my Elac Air-X 407 active speakers at the same time.


----------



## Sound Eq (Dec 9, 2020)

I am looking for the sound be big lush with big head room, compared to other amp and dac combos, especially with a headphone such as hifiman he1000v1, I have as well the hifiman he1000se but that is easy to drive so no worries with it

Or would it be a gentle sound, that is sweet, but not dynamic such as the ifi ican pro with a dac a hugo 2

I am now debating whether I should get the r28 or r27


----------



## Sound Eq

Chris Kaoss said:


> Tough question.
> I didn't got the opportunity to listen to the hugo 2 nor the Pro iCan, sadly.
> So i can't give you an insight nor make an assumption.
> Also i'm not familiar with the HEK.
> ...


thanks non of the devices you mentioned I know except cocktail audio and that one for sure I do not like, i need better perspective and comparisons to known established headphone dac/amps


----------



## Lohb

Anyone sick of the sight of their R28 in Europe and itching to move up the line, please fire me over a PM


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Sound Eq said:


> Or would it be a gentle sound, that is sweet, but not dynamic such as the ifi ican pro with a dac a hugo 2
> 
> I am now debating whether I should get the r28 or r27



Hard to say.
But you can tune the sound to your liking by a bit.
On my R28, i switch between NOS and OS8 depending on the headphone i listen to or the genre of music.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Lohb said:


> Anyone sick of the sight of their R28 in Europe and itching to move up the line, please fire me over a PM


For me, it'll never happen, i guess.
 

Despite the hugh size of the R28, i love what i hear. 
And it fits perfectly into my "rack".


----------



## barbz127

Would anyone mind listing the various filters or modes that the r28 can run? I hear nos, os and pll but unsure what the difference is or if there are others.
Thank you


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Dec 9, 2020)

barbz127 said:


> Would anyone mind listing the various filters or modes that the r28 can run? I hear nos, os and pll but unsure what the difference is or if there are others.
> Thank you


This is from the manual.





This belongs to the R28 2019.


----------



## barbz127

Does anyone leave their r28 powered on 24/7 to keep the dac on or is the concensus to turn it off when done?


----------



## Tightliner12

barbz127 said:


> Does anyone leave their r28 powered on 24/7 to keep the dac on or is the concensus to turn it off when done?


I leave my 2020 R28 left on. Leaving the Graaf integrated and all other associated equipment powered down on standby.
 My R28 really shines when connected straight into the mains, preferring no filters regen etc, completing the recipe for optimum performance I  have it hooked up to an Audio Anaiogue Airtech Cryoed mains lead.
  Whether it's right to leave the R28 on all the timeI cannot say but since I purchased it 18 months or so ago and had Magna Hifi upgrade it to 2020 spec I have absolutely no reason to operate it in any other way.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I leave mine on all the time.


----------



## barbz127

ToddRaymond said:


> I leave mine on all the time.



Does it get hot been a class A amplifier?


----------



## Tightliner12

barbz127 said:


> Does it get hot been a class A amplifier?


Hi!. The Amp in question is the GRAAF GM50B MK2. It runs cooler than its predecessor which was known for being very warm. The valves on the output stage on the Mk 2 are just running at  around 30% capacity and aren't even breaking into a sweat owing to the revised circuitry.
   I have the R28 sat alongside it on a large piece of Carrara marble with plenty if space between so nothing becomes overheated .


----------



## Tightliner12

Some pics👍


Tightliner12 said:


> Hi!. The Amp in question is the GRAAF GM50B MK2. It runs cooler than its predecessor which was known for being very warm. The valves on the output stage on the Mk 2 are just running at  around 30% capacity and aren't even breaking into a sweat owing to the revised circuitry.
> I have the R28 sat alongside it on a large piece of Carrara marble with plenty if space between so nothing becomes overheated .


----------



## Tightliner12




----------



## barbz127

I'm looking for a new set of headphones for an r27; are there some that pair better than others?


----------



## housekrl

muscleking said:


> yeah this company support is good. i don't know for sure it's the owner replied me or employee, English is pretty good and response time is also very good. he mark up images for which components to replace and i think anyone works there loves electronics and what they do.
> 
> i think you can shop around on audio mart for pcm1704uk audio gd type of dac. i been playing with audio for a long time and i still haven't find anything to beat the 10.32 yet. the 10.32 i have the previous owner updated to v7 firmware i think it's called and removed the usb module and put in amanero combo 384 to make the usb sound better. this pcm1704 sound just that much more enjoyable vs dacs like akm and ess. Maybe it's the amp. i connect the Node N100 and stream Tidal to the audio GD reference bypass the dac section and sounds pretty much the same lol. i think dac makes not too much difference these days.
> 
> ...


Thoroughly agree on the PCM1704UK Dacs from audio gd. I'm still listening to Dac19 10th anniversary edition with v7 firmware. This is the best sounding Dac I've heard, period.
Thought about selling it and getting an R28, but the more I read, I'm not sure that Dac would sound as good.


----------



## muscleking

housekrl said:


> Thoroughly agree on the PCM1704UK Dacs from audio gd. I'm still listening to Dac19 10th anniversary edition with v7 firmware. This is the best sounding Dac I've heard, period.
> Thought about selling it and getting an R28, but the more I read, I'm not sure that Dac would sound as good.


I still haven't manage to fix the r28 yet. It's just in the storage. Even the reference 10.32 l put away. Using a chord Hugo first gen with many headphones and very happy with the form factor and result it can achieve. 

I maybe selling most of the stuff in my signature if anyone interested let me know. Losing interest and too busy with family life and work to enjoy music : (


----------



## KillerQ

Hey, all,

I currently have an RME ADI-2 DAC fs that I use as my DAC. 

(My current headphones are Hifiman Anandas, Dan Clark Audio Aeon 2 Closed Back and Audeze LCD-XC headphones (I sometimes swap the wood cups for custom grills). 

My hardware is a Garage1217 Project Ember 2 Hybrid tube amp, a Schiit Lyr3 hybrid tube amp, Rupert Neve RNHP Amp, and a Burson Soloist amp. I run all of this through my RME ADI-2 DAC fs)

I have been wanting more of a warmer-sounding or “musical” DAC. I know those are buzz words, but I’m using them to help explain what I mean. I know Incan simply use tube amps to get that sound, but I have been really interested in trying an r2r DAC to get more toward that sound signature I’m going for. 

I have a chance to trade my RME ADI-2 DAC fs for an Audio-Gd R-28. 

Do you feel this may be a step in the right direction for me?

Thanks!!


----------



## sajunky (Feb 22, 2021)

@KillerQ. No directions, unless you reveal what kind of music you are listening to. Term 'musical' means different things with R2R DAC, as sound is musical on a different scale. It is why R2R owners don't talk about musicality in general, there is a lot. If there is to much, oversampling modes will reduce it bringing more artificial clarity. The amp of R-28 is a part of Audio GD house of sound: neutral, slightly on the warm scale. It is due to the non-feedback design focusing on accuracy during fast transients. You have good amps to compare with, waiting for your feedback


----------



## KillerQ

I love Queen, Classic rock, and Death Metal like this: . I love listening through tube amps as well. 





sajunky said:


> @KillerQ. No directions, unless you reveal what kind of music you are listening to. Term 'musical' means different things with R2R DAC, as sound is musical on a different scale. It is why R2R owners don't talk about musicality in general, there is a lot. If there is to much, oversampling modes will reduce it bringing more artificial clarity. The amp of R-28 is a part of Audio GD house of sound: neutral, slightly on the warm scale. It is due to the non-feedback design focusing on accuracy during fast transients. You have good amps to compare with, waiting for your feedback


----------



## sajunky

KillerQ said:


> I love Queen, Classic rock, and Death Metal like this: .... I love listening through tube amps as well.


Classic rock sounds good. For old recording in general my thumbs are up. New recordings are mastered for a consumer market to sound equally well on cheap equipment (which is Delta-Sigma). It is where revenue comes from... Queen, superb vocals, you need to hear guitar plunks, true harmonics, much better defined. 

Dead Metal, I don't know. I was introduced to the progressive rock by King Crimson many years ago, still love it. I gone through The Doors, Animals, Pink Floyd, Queen, Abba, but missed Punk and Heavy Metal, now listening more to jazz and some classic


----------



## KillerQ

Great!! I can’t wait to try it. You have good musical taste!



sajunky said:


> Classic rock sounds good. For old recording in general my thumbs are up. New recordings are mastered for a consumer market to sound equally well on cheap equipment (which is Delta-Sigma). It is where revenue comes from... Queen, superb vocals, you need to hear guitar plunks, true harmonics, much better defined.
> 
> Dead Metal, I don't know. I was introduced to the progressive rock by King Crimson many years ago, still love it. I gone through The Doors, Animals, Pink Floyd, Queen, Abba, but missed Punk and Heavy Metal, now listening more to jazz and some classic


----------



## KillerQ

Just received my R28 today!! I can’t wait to get it fired up. 

Question, the jumper settings on the website are extremely cryptic to my, and the charts don’t even line up (unless I’m reading it incorrectly). Is there a better, more clear explanation of the jumper settings and modes anywhere?

Here’s the link to the info I’m TRYING to follow. http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN_Use.htm

Thanks!!


----------



## Jandu

KillerQ said:


> Just received my R28 today!! I can’t wait to get it fired up.
> 
> Question, the jumper settings on th....
> 
> Thanks!!



Mainly two choices: OverSampling and No OverSampling (NOS)

Once you have decided above, you go to Table one or two.

Only two switches you have to decide, S7 & S6. Depending on which combination, which column, you decide the mode or OS.

Try it and see which one you like. However, wait till you have at least 100 hrs burn in time.

Enjoy!


----------



## KillerQ

Thanks!

That makes more sense now. So, it looks like S6 and S7 for OS multiplier modes within OS mode 

And S4 and S5 for the 4 tone settings when in NOS mode.


----------



## Jandu

KillerQ said:


> Thanks!
> 
> That makes more sense now......



Yep, but R28 sound good even without touching any of the switches. However, depending on your preference, you can try to change it to suit a bit better. 

Enjoy!


----------



## KillerQ (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks! I’ll leave it as stock for now. I just wanted to get familiar with it. Looks like OS 8x is how it comes stock, I think - LOL. 

I’m excited just to plug in and start listening.

Actually, I know the firmware hasn’t been updated since this unit was purchased back in 2018 - I wonder if it would be wise to update the firmware right away.... it came with the USB blaster flashing tool.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Looks like an "older" revision of the R28, bc the newer ones got the front panel selector without the need to open the unit.

So you don't need the burn-in period, i'd say. (just for your brain ^^)

Anyway, have fun and great listening.


----------



## KillerQ

Thanks!

Do you know of anyone in the US that does this upgrade? 

https://magnahifi.com/audio-gd-r28-2021-full-service-upgrade/



Chris Kaoss said:


> Looks like an "older" revision of the R28, bc the newer ones got the front panel selector without the need to open the unit.
> 
> So you don't need the burn-in period, i'd say. (just for your brain ^^)
> 
> Anyway, have fun and great listening.


----------



## KillerQ

It’s an absolute DREAM


----------



## PopZeus

Ohh R-28 paired with an LCD I bet that sounds phenomenal.


----------



## KillerQ

So happy with the pairing. I also have Hifiman Anandas and Dan Clark Audio Aeon 2 closed to try out. 

Actually the headphones you see in the pic are Audeze LCD-XC that I removed the cups from and installed my own grills. I really like them this way. 




PopZeus said:


> Ohh R-28 paired with an LCD I bet that sounds phenomenal.


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Feb 28, 2021)

KillerQ said:


> It’s an absolute DREAM


Looks great, indeed.

And the sound . . . . .


----------



## KillerQ (Feb 28, 2021)

Has anyone here followed the official Audio-GD guide on how (with a little soldering) to update their 2018 R28 to the 2021 functionality? I may knock it out tomorrow.

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/2021upgrade/2021upgradeEN.htm


----------



## Chris Kaoss

No.
I don't think it's necessary on mine.
It still sounds great.


----------



## Telin

Jandu said:


> wait till you have at least 100 hrs burn in time.


According to Audio-GD QC each unit has 100 hrs of burn in before Audio-GD ships the unit.


----------



## Jandu

Telin said:


> According to Audio-GD QC each unit has 100 hrs of burn in before Audio-GD ships the unit.


True, tested for QC after 100hr. I found the R2R DAC sound quality improves to about 300+ hrs. Try it out and see if you have a different finding


----------



## JaMo

The gears, especially the R2R gears need a long burn in period before they sound the best. The "pre-baking" at Audio-gd of 100hrs or for the higher gears, 300hrs, are primarily for the electronics to stabilize. Electrical values drifts some during the first period of the time. When we get the gears the real sound maturing starts. 500-1000hrs isn't unusual... so enjoy the ride, it gets alot better in a month or two. The latest dac I have bought started to shine after about three months..
/Jan


----------



## KillerQ

Do these jumpers change any sound profiles, or do they just allow the other jumper sound settings to apply to the non-digital inputs as well? Just wanna make sure. 

Thanks!!


----------



## KillerQ

Also, is the Amp portion of the R28 influenced by the r2r architecture, or is it only the DAC portion that has r2r. I was curious if I used a separate DAC and fed it into the R28 to use in amp mode only if it would act as a “normal” amp that bypasses the r2r architecture. From what I read, I think it is separate from the r2r of the DAC, just making sure. Thanks!!

This makes me think it is, in fact, separate.


----------



## Jandu

KillerQ said:


> Also, is the Amp portion of the R28 influenced by the r2r architecture, or is it only the DAC portion that has r2r. I was curious if I used a separate DAC and fed it into the R28 to use in amp mode only if it would act as a “normal” amp that bypasses the r2r architecture. From what I read, I think it is separate from the r2r of the DAC, just making sure. Thanks!!
> 
> This makes me think it is, in fact, separate.


The R28 pre amp portion is separate from the DAC (R2R) portion. Only when you select them to be connected. One can use the DAC and feed the analog signal to another pre amp or one can fed the pre amp with signal from the output of another DAC.


----------



## KillerQ

Thanks for confirming my hunch! I also looked at the specs, the R28 has really impressive headphone output power!


----------



## Chris Kaoss

KillerQ said:


> Also, is the Amp portion of the R28 influenced by the r2r architecture, or is it only the DAC portion that has r2r. I was curious if I used a separate DAC and fed it into the R28 to use in amp mode only if it would act as a “normal” amp that bypasses the r2r architecture. From what I read, I think it is separate from the r2r of the DAC, just making sure. Thanks!!
> 
> This makes me think it is, in fact, separate.


It's separated.
Tested yesterday with the Mojo connected to the analog in5.


----------



## KillerQ (Mar 3, 2021)

Chris Kaoss said:


> It's separated.
> Tested yesterday with the Mojo connected to the analog in5.


Great! That means I can simply hook a non-r2r to it when I need a more transparent sound for production. 

Best of both worlds. Thanks!

Since it’s not being used as a preamp in this scenario, Did you simply connect your mojo DAC to the analog input on the back and then simply switch to that input and use your headphones like normal?
Thanks!


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Yes.

I've made a comparison between the R2R and the Mojo.

My chain was
Surface Pro 7 with Tidal exclusive mode -> USB to Mojo and R28 simultaneously -> Mojo Line-out to R28 In5 -> XLR-Headphone out to SEM5

Switching back and forth between Input 2 and 5.

Was a great session. )


----------



## SolidSlug

Chris Kaoss said:


> Yes.
> 
> I've made a comparison between the R2R and the Mojo.
> 
> ...


Who won?


----------



## KillerQ

SolidSlug said:


> Who won?


With this equipment, everybody wins!

@Chris Kaoss, I have an SU-9 coming tomorrow that I’m interested to hooking up to the R28 via balanced XLR. Like you said, will be nice to switch back and forth in real-time.


----------



## SolidSlug

KillerQ said:


> With this equipment, everybody wins!
> 
> @Chris Kaoss, I have an SU-9 coming tomorrow that I’m interested to hooking up to the R28 via balanced XLR. Like you said, will be nice to switch back and forth in real-time.


I have some difficulty figuring what is in each Audio-GD box. For the R28, is the DAC equivalent to the R1 and the amp something equivalent to the NFB-1AMP?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

SolidSlug said:


> Who won?


Hehe.

The music. 


In the long.

The Dacs are very different.

While the Mojo obtain a higher clarity, more punch and, i'd say "crunch", the R2R plays how it is known for.
More relaxed and smoother, slightly better stage to me.

It comes down to what you prefer.

I like the choice both have to offer to my musical enjoyment.


----------



## KillerQ (Mar 7, 2021)

I just performed the R28 2021 update HERE to allow my 2018 R28 to be able to use the 2021, as well as future, firmware updates!

It well well! Can’t wait to listen more.


----------



## sumpao

Did you guy still experience DSD and PCM POPPING when switching song.

I use R28 for 3 year this issue is quite annoying.

Now I plan to jump ship to SMSL M400


----------



## barbz127

Has anyone compared the USB input on the 2021 models to that of the DI20?

Looking to see if there anything else to gain here.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I wish I could help you, barbz127.  I believe Kingwa fairly recently stated that the new USB input brings things to about the same level as the DI20, but that the DI-20HE was still a good notch above.


----------



## barbz127

ToddRaymond said:


> I wish I could help you, barbz127.  I believe Kingwa fairly recently stated that the new USB input brings things to about the same level as the DI20, but that the DI-20HE was still a good notch above.


Thankyou

I have everything running through a regenerator so may just sit on my hands for the moment


----------



## Lu Mazzmarill

Did anyone reviewed this unit here? 
I am undecided between this and the flux lab FCN 10...


----------



## ocramida

@Currawong 
So I watched your reviews on the R28 and the Empyrean. But of course they were a year or so apart. Not sure if you still have the R28, but could you comment on how it is with the Empyrean?  I did try running a search in this thread, but did not see any mention of the Empyrean. Much Appreciated.


----------



## ocramida

Interesting. Been looking through this thread and at some of the picts from 2018. Appears that the 2021 version uses 2 rcore transformers compared to the one from the 2018?


----------



## ToddRaymond

Hi Ocramida.  Yes, that's correct.  Two R-core transformers now.


----------



## ocramida

ToddRaymond said:


> Hi Ocramida.  Yes, that's correct.  Two R-core transformers now.


Thank you for the reply. So anyone have any insight into how the changes improve the performance? Anyone do an a/b comparison?


----------



## dl3152

Just got the R28 and heard it requires 500 hours of burn in. Is that true?


----------



## sajunky

It depends.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

dl3152 said:


> Just got the R28 and heard it requires 500 hours of burn in. Is that true?


I wouldn't mess with.
Just plug in your gear and let it play. 

It refinest during use, i'd say.

And yes, it depends on what you're hunting for.


----------



## dl3152

Chris Kaoss said:


> I wouldn't mess with.
> Just plug in your gear and let it play.
> 
> It refinest during use, i'd say.
> ...


Thanks


----------



## ocramida (Jun 24, 2021)

I've been curious about Audio gd products for a while but always held off because of the seemingly complicated ordering process and lead time. Then I came across a Underwood Hifi ad on Audiogon. Turns out they recently became a US reseller for the brand. About a week later I had a brand new R28 2021 to go with my Meze Empyrean.
Some 4 weeks later the R28 has been playing. Whether it was me burning in or it, the sound is quite smooth and big. Given the improvements made to the R28 2021 USB input, I decided to try a Raspberry Pi 3b as a source with volumio. Only tweak is an iFi iPower PS feeding the Pi.
The only thing that "seems" to be missing from the R28 when compared to my Woo Audio WA11 is a slightly euphoric sound. What the R28 provides is much deeper bass extension and detail which demonstrates how well the Meze headphones scale. High frequencies are excellent if not a little dry when compared to the Woo. Not surprisingly, the largest difference is dynamics. The R28 slams and crescendos like a proper solid state amp. Of course the Woo runs on battery and produces ~1.2 watts compared to ~8 watts into 32 ohms.
I do enjoy having my entire FLAC library at my fingertips via the Pi/Volumio/NAS, while my Woo is fed by a SD card via a LG V30+.

Wondering if the sound will change much more beyond the 600+ hours of current run time. I have been bouncing between NOS and Oversampling modes. Not surprising I seem to prefer NOS.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

A very welcome. 

Despite its design, the R28 is a great Dac/amp.
Wouldn't exchange it with something else in/for my listening habits. 

The only thing i do is to add the Mojo/BTR5 for a different sound presentation sometimes.

The 2.5 to 2x Xlr cable for BTR5 -> R28 has arrived today for another comparison.


----------



## ocramida

Chris Kaoss said:


> A very welcome.
> 
> Despite its design, the R28 is a great Dac/amp.
> Wouldn't exchange it with something else in/for my listening habits.
> ...


Thank you...

I actually love it's design. Very simple, but solid and well-built- classic look that won't age IMO. I'm even getting used to the settings workflow and leave the VFD in sleep mode.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Agree with.
The only thing that bothers me by a bit is the rigorous split design for the ins and outs on the backplate. ^^
Ordinary RCA-cables doesn't fit to it.

But it sounds so clean with my Elacs, it's simply amazing. (and my headphones too  )

Have fun listen to it.


----------



## ocramida

Chris Kaoss said:


> Agree with.
> The only thing that bothers me by a bit is the rigorous split design for the ins and outs on the backplate. ^^
> Ordinary RCA-cables doesn't fit to it.
> 
> ...


yeah I can see that. I just use USB, so no issue yet with other cables.


----------



## nghenhac

Hello mates, excuse me if this is not appropriate. Does anyone think about selling this dac amp  ?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

nghenhac said:


> Hello mates, excuse me if this is not appropriate. Does anyone think about selling this dac amp  ?


I know of Magnahifi (Netherland) and Audiofonics (France).
Oh, and Kingwa, obviously.


----------



## ocramida

nghenhac said:


> Hello mates, excuse me if this is not appropriate. Does anyone think about selling this dac amp  ?


You're in the US. I got mine from Underwood Hifi. Excellent experience.


----------



## Telin

I'm pretty sure nghenac means if a member is willing to sell his/her unit to him not how or where to buy a new one


----------



## sajunky

ocramida said:


> You're in the US. I got mine from Underwood Hifi. Excellent experience.


Sure, it is a new appointed US dealer.


----------



## ocramida

sajunky said:


> Sure, it is a new appointed US dealer.


Fwiw Underwood has been around for ~20 years. I purchased a few products from him when I was more heavily into two channel systems. Good experience everytime


----------



## sajunky

ocramida said:


> Fwiw Underwood has been around for ~20 years. I purchased a few products from him when I was more heavily into two channel systems. Good experience everytime


Good to hear, as Audio GD needs a reliable and knowleable partner on the US soil.


----------



## nghenhac

Telin said:


> I'm pretty sure nghenac means if a member is willing to sell his/her unit to him not how or where to buy a new one


Thanks Telin, yes that is exactly what I wanted. Appreciate your clarification. I stop buying new units, I get bored really fast so I decide to buy used lol.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Telin said:


> I'm pretty sure nghenac means if a member is willing to sell his/her unit to him not how or where to buy a new one



I know. 
My response was more like: noone is going to sell this unit until it dies.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I've considered selling mine, to put that money toward upgrading my main system to R-7HE + HE-9, etc., but I think I'll be keeping mine to use in the bedroom.  28 months later, and I'm still completely satisified with my R-28.


----------



## Dailydrive

I'm new to r2r, so far only have modest experience with delta s in 11.38 which I'm introduced to AGD. 

Hv been considering 2021 R28 for sometime, or Di-20 with Metrum Jade via i2s. Any advise on sound quality/perf betw Jade to R28 (on NOS settings) ?

Also curious if Di-20 w R2r11 (reading much praises thru mod i2s hdmi) be equal to 2021 R28 direct USB from each unit's headphone jack? 

 Thank you


----------



## sajunky

Dailydrive said:


> Also curious if Di-20 w R2r11 (reading much praises thru mod i2s hdmi) be equal to 2021 R28 direct USB from each unit's headphone jack?


Links? I am now busy modding Amanero on my R2R-11. I am afraid, it will never be able to compare with a real R28. I had first impression last night. It sounded great, but during peak hours (perhaps our power lines went very bad) I couldn't hear *any* difference between original an a modded clock. More about later.


----------



## Dailydrive

Thank you Sajunky 

Taking from AGD on new R28 : "close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20"
If 2021 R28 via usb a definate step up from a DI-20 with R11 via i2s, then I more or less narrowed my search.


----------



## sajunky

Dailydrive said:


> Thank you Sajunky
> 
> Taking from AGD on new R28 : "close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20"
> If 2021 R28 via usb a definate step up from a DI-20 with R11 via i2s, then I more or less narrowed my search.


A direct USB clock is a new feature of R-28 (2021), but I wouln't believe this statement, as 2021 version do not have a bidirectional USB isolator. I think it was copy-pasted from MK2 versions. These MK2 models have redesigned FPGA processing and a bidirectional USB isolator. Currently there are only R-1/R-28 2021 versions, you have to wait to the end of year for the MK2.


----------



## Dailydrive (Jul 11, 2021)

sajunky said:


> A direct USB clock is a new feature of R-28 (2021), but I wouln't believe this statement, as 2021 version do not have a bidirectional USB isolator. I think it was copy-pasted from MK2 versions. These MK2 models have redesigned FPGA processing and a bidirectional USB isolator. Currently there are only R-1/R-28 2021 versions, you have to wait to the end of year for the MK2.


Er, meaning the current 2021 R28 still need a i2s-htmi DDC like DI-20 to perform best?

& only R28 Mk2 at this year end will be  "close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20"?

Sorry, not sure if I read you correctly

Btw, what's a bidirectional USB isolator you mentioned?


----------



## sajunky (Jul 11, 2021)

Dailydrive said:


> Er, meaning the current 2021 R28 still need a i2s-htmi DDC like DI-20 to perform best?
> 
> & only R28 Mk2 at this year end will be  "close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20"?
> 
> ...


Mk2 versions are more close to support this claim. At the moment USB interface has no bidirectional galvanic isolation, but DI-20 has, so conclusion is - you still need DI-20.

About bidirectional isolator, lets try this way. Without the isolator USB asynchronous transfers can be fully utilised, meaning a high quality internal clock is driving a ladder directly, no reclocking is required. Before 2021, it was reclocking no matter it was needed or not. 2021 models do synchronise PC transfers, no reclocking is done. It is a big step forward, but it only works on a direct connection. Adding isolator on the USB interface breaks such ideal scenario. Bidirectional USB isolator allows to achieve the same optimum mode. Most of competitors use only unidirectional, feedback is broken on the isolator. Bidirectional isolator was introduced first time with DI-20, it made this device so successful. Now also implemented in all MK2 models.


----------



## Dailydrive (Jul 12, 2021)

May not fully understand technically but thank you for your explanation. I do enjoy u16 via bnc spdif rather than direct usb to 11.38, and I'm looking into r2r without adding too many audio boxes

Btw, I didn't see any AGD "pre-sale teaser" of R28 Mk2 this year-end, could direct me ?


----------



## sajunky (Jul 12, 2021)

Dailydrive said:


> Btw, I didn't see any AGD "pre-sale teaser" of R28 Mk2 this year-end, could direct me ?


It hasn't been communicated with us. We were told that there will be no more MK2's before end of the year. This is all we know. R-28 is very expensive to make. Some other models were dropped this year due to the high cost, like R2R-11 DAC/HPA combo and FNB-1AMP. The last one gives a warning, as in R-28 there is the same amp section. It means that a price for the MK2 model will increase or it will follow fate of FNB-1AMP.


----------



## Telin

Just for some extra information.. Magna Hifi still lists the R2R-11 as in stock so get it while you can!


----------



## Vandal

I have a query about the AGD R28.

I have need of a DAC + preamp with a HP amp thrown in. The preamp section would feed my active monitors, KRK Expose E8B.

I noticed a switch DAC/Pre. Does this mean I cannot use the R28 as a DAC and the preamp section together simultaneously?

Please let me know. 

Also what is the difference between the R28 and the R27 (which is double the price), other than a beefier power section (I can see a third larger power unit).

Thanks in advance!


----------



## sajunky (Jul 19, 2021)

Vandal said:


> I noticed a switch DAC/Pre. Does this mean I cannot use the R28 as a DAC and the preamp section together simultaneously?


If I remember correctly, you can't. It is like in my R2R-11: if you switch to the headphone amp, it cuts line outputs and in reverse. It is very convenient on the desk, but if you want simultaneously there is a better option. If it is confirmed, better get R-1 plus NFB-1AMP. From the higher range replace R-27 with R-8MK2 plus one of Master series amp.

As for differences, R-28 DAC section is based on R-1. Comparing to the R-27 which is based on R-8, there are four DA-8 ladder modules instead of two DA-7, but it gives the same number of ladders and everything works in the same balanced configuration.

In the headphone amp section R-28 has an expensive to make relay based stepped attenuator and electronics is based on the well known NFB-1AMP. In R27 you can only find a pot, but the amp is based on the Master series (top range).

In my opinion R-28 is an exceptionally good value, R-27 not so. If you are targeting this level of performance get R-8 instead as it is available in MK2 version, R-27 is not.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Don't know if i do understand that question in its own.

You want to listen to your speakers and hp simultaneously?

On my setup, i've active speakers connected to the R28 (Elac Air-X 407).

If i want to listen over hp i've to push the front button "Dac/Hp" once and the R28 will switch between HP or speaker.

Never touched the "pre"-button on the back, afaik.
Dip switch on the back of the speaker is set to "default" for a fixed initial volume level.
Volume control handled by the R-28.


If i was wrong, forget about. ^^


----------



## sajunky

Chris Kaoss said:


> Never touched the "pre"-button on the back, afaik.


Ok, I was wrong. Pre-button on the back does a job as requested. It disable volume control on the line output and the output mode (headphone) switch no longer take an effect. See this post.


----------



## aumont00

@Dailydrive sorry if Im late to the party.
I have an r28 upgraded with the 2021 inputs.
I can confirm you that it still needs a ddc to get the best out of it. But with the 2021 version, the difference between direct usb and hdmi coming from my gustard u16 is subtle (more subtle than with the 2020 version). The bass is definitely better from the gustard.
I cannot comment regarding using it with a di20 as I dont own one, but you can expect for sure a better low frequency rendering, and probably a better stereo image…


----------



## Dailydrive (Jul 31, 2021)

aumont00 said:


> @Dailydrive sorry if Im late to the party.
> I have an r28 upgraded with the 2021 inputs.
> I can confirm you that it still needs a ddc to get the best out of it. But with the 2021 version, the difference between direct usb and hdmi coming from my gustard u16 is subtle (more subtle than with the 2020 version). The bass is definitely better from the gustard.
> I cannot comment regarding using it with a di20 as I dont own one, but you can expect for sure a better low frequency rendering, and probably a better stereo image…


Thank you aumont00 for your feedback. I have u16 too and tbh, direct usb to my current 11.38, while not terrible, do not sound as good as feed from u16 bnc to spdif/coaxial of 11.38, so I understand where you coming from, with rounder and more enjoyable vocals & music in general. Still on the fense of exploring R2R option😁


----------



## khordo

Small Question for R28 owner...
My current Set-up is Topping DX7s + Utopia...I'm looking for something new..
I'm familiar with Delta Sigma sound, but never heard an R2R like the R28...
So What to expect with R28+ Focal Utopia feed by HQPlayer (DSD256 with polysinc Gauss XLA for example) Note that the R28 would be used only with Headphone.
Thanks again for your information Guys !


----------



## sajunky

khordo said:


> My current Set-up is Topping DX7s + Utopia...I'm looking for something new..
> I'm familiar with Delta Sigma sound, but never heard an R2R like the R28...
> So What to expect with R28+ Focal Utopia feed by HQPlayer (DSD256 with polysinc Gauss XLA for example) Note that the R28 would be used only with Headphone.


Shortly, timbre and texture, like in a live performance with use of acoustic instruments. R2R DAC reproduce it thruthfully. There is no digital glare, long term fatigue. You will listen to music longer. The amp in R28 is a pure Class A, no-feedback discrete design (no opamps), it will not simplify music. 

Try in NOS mode, switching HQPlayer to bit-perfect mode. Upsampling and filtering improve sound of Topping, not neccesary R2R DAC. You can still hear improvements, it is a matter of personal preference, but it is not to the same degree as you hear now.

Negative. Expect initial burning R-28 ladder in two-three weeks. With ultra-low jitter clocks (as it is selling now) burning process takes even longer.


----------



## AudioAlex

khordo said:


> Small Question for R28 owner...
> My current Set-up is Topping DX7s + Utopia...I'm looking for something new..
> I'm familiar with Delta Sigma sound, but never heard an R2R like the R28...
> So What to expect with R28+ Focal Utopia feed by HQPlayer (DSD256 with polysinc Gauss XLA for example) Note that the R28 would be used only with Headphone.
> Thanks again for your information Guys !


The main difference for me between Delta Sigma and R2R is that:

DS - produce sounds with great precision
R2R - produce music, that sounds coherent and natural

In terms of resolutions and amount of details R28 is quite on par with DS DACs within the same price category.. R28 is not inferiors in terms of dynamics either.. There is a number of modes you can use in line with your music preferences: OS - more technical, neutral, NOS - more natural and warm.. So R28 is quite versatile and can satisfy users with different preferences within the same concept..

Many find it difficult to go back to DS after R2R, so care must be exercised ..)


----------



## khordo

OK done ! Just received yesterday my R-28 2021 Edition...
Too early to make my opinion about this combo, but after one day, i can say that comments from AudioAlex & sajunky are 100% right...

I did not change my HQPlayer Settings, set the DAC to Nos Mode, plug the Utopia with XLR Cable and Press play...More Musical, effortless...This R2R Produces music, with great precisionbut keep it very Natural...
AudioAlex & sajunky thanks for your comment, it's exactly what i feel when i'm listening to the R-28...I'm happy 

Now, it's time for burnin' and play with Oversampling (which btw change the behavior of the system pretty nicely)


----------



## ocramida (Sep 2, 2021)

khordo said:


> OK done ! Just received yesterday my R-28 2021 Edition...
> Too early to make my opinion about this combo, but after one day, i can say that comments from AudioAlex & sajunky are 100% right...
> 
> I did not change my HQPlayer Settings, set the DAC to Nos Mode, plug the Utopia with XLR Cable and Press play...More Musical, effortless...This R2R Produces music, with great precisionbut keep it very Natural...
> ...


Congratulations. I went with a R28 a few months ago and IMO the sound does change over weeks. Excellent synergy with my Mezes.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

ocramida said:


> Congratulations. I went with a R28 a few months ago and IMO the sound does change over weeks. Excellent Synergy with my Mezes.


Glad to hear that.
Eyeing the Empy for over a year now and was in doubt of the synergy with my R28.

Thanks for your comment.


----------



## Lolito

what are the sound differences between this one and a denafrips ares 2? thanks!!


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> what are the sound differences between this one and a denafrips ares 2? thanks!!


Oh no, Denafrips is not NOS!

A sound comparison on the higher level with Denafrips.


> Subjectively speaking, R7 can be fast and slow, Venus can’t be as fast, R7 can be bold, punchy, a bass canon if you want, or a gentle giant depending on the settings, Venus can’t be that raw and naughty


----------



## Vandal

Chris Kaoss said:


> Don't know if i do understand that question in its own.
> 
> You want to listen to your speakers and hp simultaneously?
> 
> ...


Hi Sorry, I was away a bit. I want to use the DAC along with either my active monitors, or my headphones, not simultaneously. But the DAC + Pre will be used simultaneously.


----------



## Vandal

sajunky said:


> If I remember correctly, you can't. It is like in my R2R-11: if you switch to the headphone amp, it cuts line outputs and in reverse. It is very convenient on the desk, but if you want simultaneously there is a better option. If it is confirmed, better get R-1 plus NFB-1AMP. From the higher range replace R-27 with R-8MK2 plus one of Master series amp.
> 
> As for differences, R-28 DAC section is based on R-1. Comparing to the R-27 which is based on R-8, there are four DA-8 ladder modules instead of two DA-7, but it gives the same number of ladders and everything works in the same balanced configuration.
> 
> ...


Oh, so I cannot use DAC + Pre together. But why not? It is not like they're competing for like I understand the HP and Pre are so I need to switch/toggle between those two.


----------



## sajunky

Vandal said:


> Oh, so I cannot use DAC + Pre together. But why not? It is not like they're competing for like I understand the HP and Pre are so I need to switch/toggle between those two.


Actually it is different in R28. There is 'Pre' switch on the back, it changes everything. See this post, a  post later you are quoting.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver (Sep 17, 2021)

REALLY REALLY need an answer to this as my dealer has a returned unit BNIB at a nice discount..
 Do I understand you must push the "Pre"button on back of unit EVERY time you switch between preamp & headphone use?


----------



## sajunky

E8ArmyDiver said:


> Quick question,could use answer ASAP..
> Do I understand you must push the "Pre"button on back of unit EVERY time you switch between preamp & headphone use?


Not. 'Pre' button changes functionality, set it once, depends on your setup. One position is for those who want line outputs to work in a fixed mode (bypassing pre-amp), it makes line outputs independent from a headphone amp and a volume control.  In the other position line outputs are controlled by the volume control (full pre-amp functionality) and a front DAC/HP (output selection) switch.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver (Sep 17, 2021)

hahahaha,just found the manual online but thanks for the reply..For future reference this is the description:
"*The DAC/PREAMP output mode selector : *
Pull out , XLR / RCA /ACSS output as decent DAC. Push into , XLR / RCA /ACSS output as preamp .
Headphone output modes have not any effect by this selector ."..
 So to summarize:"Pre"button on back sets output to EITHER DAC only OR full PreAmp..Has NO affect on front DAC/HP button which toggles between HP use & P/A-DAC....
TRIGGER PULLED on BNIB 2021 version with the upgraded remote & I SAVED a minimum of $700.00 over BursonC3R & $1200.00 on the Violectric!
 DOING A HAPPY DANCE!!!
"*The R28 is a fully Fully Balanced solid state preamp with 9.5 watts per channel headphone amp"*


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Thanks. 

So for use with active monitors and/or additional amp/ tube amp, you've to release the button, ideally.
For an "endpoint" with fixed volume, the button has to be pushed in to set the volume via R-28.

It's all clear now.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver

76 pages,read every reply.Started freaking a bit when I was reading about going inside to change jumpers around,SOOO glad to read the latest has front switch control for the various filters..
 Which brings me to my questions..Headphones are HFM HE6SEv2Adorama,which,based on my ownership of HE400i & Sundara I imagine will be like a beautiful crystal clear day looking out over a snow covered field,along with iBasso SR-1,which have a more noticeable organic warmth that imo need a source signal like a good Sabre DAC with no additional warmth added..So looking for 2 different flavors from the R28 which filters do you recommend trying to get:
a warmish,detailed but smooth presentation for the HE6 &
a cleaner,more neutral presentation for the iBasso's?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

I'd take the NOS for the HE6 and, eemh, a sabre Dac to R28 for the iBasso.    

Seriously, for your use case(s), the filters on the R-28 aren't that different, maybe slightly.
It still remains a R2R-Dac, with its pros and cons. 

IMO.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver (Sep 29, 2021)

Guys need your help..My R28 is here,unboxed & set up..Regarding the different filters/NOS/OS settings,I was under the impression that everything should be accessed through a front panel button BUT I got a small baggie with a bunch of I don't know what little plastic thingies & looking at the Audio GD website the R28 clearly shows the left button marked "DAC/HP"..MIne just says "Out"...
 SOOOO I'm thinking I did NOT get the latest edition & I need confirmation from you folks..1st.pic is unit I received,second pic is from Audio GD website..


----------



## Tightliner12

I purchased my R28 from Magna Hifi in 2019. Everything to do with sampling and Mode changes can be done from the front panel. My three panel buttons are DAC/HP, GAIN and INPUT.
  Those little things in the baggie you mentioned sound like they're the jumpers to change Modes used to switch from within the cabinet. I would obviously contact your retailer to discuss the model you received from them


----------



## ocramida

I received my R28 in April from Underwood HiFi and it has an OUT button. Been working well and can control everything from front buttons. I also got some jumpers which I have not used.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

E8ArmyDiver said:


> Guys need your help..My R28 is here,unboxed & set up..Regarding the different filters/NOS/OS settings,I was under the impression that everything should be accessed through a front panel button BUT I got a small baggie with a bunch of I don't know what little plastic thingies & looking at the Audio GD website the R28 clearly shows the left button marked "DAC/HP"..MIne just says "Out"...
> SOOOO I'm thinking I did NOT get the latest edition & I need confirmation from you folks..1st.pic is unit I received,second pic is from Audio GD website..


Does it switch to "H" on the first digit when you push the OUT button once?
Does it move to , for example N3001 or O8001, when you push the OUT button twice?

If both answers are yes, then you're good to go with your beautiful R-28.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver

^^^^^ last 3.....
 Guys really appreciate the replies..
 YES it does switch to H when I press the Out button once,keep pressing & YES it cycles through several #'s like 08001...So I take it those are the Sampling settings?I looked at the manual online but don't see the information on the settings.Can someone tell me where to find or how to set to NOS mode?

 Only had a few short minutes to listen last night but sure sounded sweet,that 100 hour pre burn in REALLY helps.Can't wait till this weekend,doing some serious listening till Monday..Thanks again,have a great weekend..


----------



## Chris Kaoss

E8ArmyDiver said:


> ^^^^^ last 3.....
> Guys really appreciate the replies..
> YES it does switch to H when I press the Out button once,keep pressing & YES it cycles through several #'s like 08001...So I take it those are the Sampling settings?I looked at the manual online but don't see the information on the settings.Can someone tell me where to find or how to set to NOS mode?
> 
> Only had a few short minutes to listen last night but sure sounded sweet,that 100 hour pre burn in REALLY helps.Can't wait till this weekend,doing some serious listening till Monday..Thanks again,have a great weekend..


To change to NOS mode, push the OUT button twice and than push the Input button.
Leave it for 2-3 seconds.
You'll notice a "Klick" sound once applied.


----------



## E8ArmyDiver

^^^ appreciate that..Is there NO where this information is in print.I would like to explore the different settings but have no reference point...


----------



## Red_Devil_24

E8ArmyDiver said:


> ^^^ appreciate that..Is there NO where this information is in print.I would like to explore the different settings but have no reference point...



The pics on Audio-GD's website are from the older version. The new one is labeled OUT.
Details are available on Audio-GD's website, Scroll down a bit.
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN_Use.htm


----------



## E8ArmyDiver

Red_Devil_24 said:


> The pics on Audio-GD's website are from the older version. The new one is labeled OUT.
> Details are available on Audio-GD's website, Scroll down a bit.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN_Use.htm


Thats great thanks!!!


----------



## E8ArmyDiver (Oct 3, 2021)

First I want to send props to the members who have provided 75+ pages of enough information to let me pull the trigger on an R28 with little reservation,as well as help me confirm & set up the latest 2021 version.Without that today would have been a TOTAL BUMMER!!!
 Second is props to Walter @ Underwood HiFi,who confirmed the value & performance of the unit,had it shipped right out & then put up with my paranoia after I received it..Highly recommended for all kinds of gear..
 Saturday,except for the last 4+ hours,SUCKED!
 Day started @ 0420,42 mile drive(yes I thought that funny too) to the jobsite.Ok,I can listen to football & make double overtime for 10 hours,I can hang..3 hours later a storm blew in & with 2,200' cranes set up,a million miles of steel girders exposed & enough water on the deck to literally float a dingy(one of our electrical lockers completely flooded at 9' total depth)the general ordered everyone off the site..6 hours lost wages & another 42 mile drive,oh well I can watch my beloved college football...
 Yea,EVERY FRAKING team I follow got run off the gridiron..After 9 hours of torture I threw on my Pandora+ Classic Rock station & headed off to do some chores.
 I couldn't finish loading the washer fast enough,as Robin Trower seemed to have stopped by with his Strat & was playing in my living room.With factory burn in(3 cheers)+ about 30 hours now I've been  playing air guitar for the first time in too many years..
 Several things stood out already compared to my previous Burson C3P..First was VERY low level resolution.The R28 in NOS mode digs out tiny little sounds the Burson glossed over.Brush work is easily followed,cymbal sustain is considerably longer,bass is comparable,drums & percussion have much better resolution,sounds from a bass drum frame can clearly be heard when properly motivated,but where the R28 smokes the Burson is in imaging & staging,which are wider,deeper & more solidly outlined along with something not easily quantifiable.
 Call it delicacy.I'm talking about music that is so lightly played it could be a whisper.To be able to convey tone texture & emotional intent the way the R28 does during those lull in the action passages is quite simply amazing.Some of Jimmy Hendrix blues or Jimmy Pages Gibson work is just plain baddd a$$$.......This thing doesn't seem to care what type of music you que up.It is both muscular & delicate,it is emotional & yet it can be cold blooded when needed & all this is on my Harbeth M30.1's..
 As for headphones,OMG!!!
 With the iBasso SR-1's on the Burson,there was always a very slight darkness,very much reminded me of running a class a PP tube amp in Triode mode..Gone is that slight darkness,detail & voice seem the same & it's not like cleaning a dirty window.More like a too thick speaker grill shifting the freq.response just a tiny bit.Now that grill is gone & the SR-1 has taken on a slightly more see through sound,kind of a hybrid Planar/Dynamic sound,much like the Harbeth Monitors,with amazing bass depth & texture...
 I just can't imagine ever having the desire to spend more $ chasing a marginal or non existent performance increase..At the asking price an absolute gem!


----------



## jonathan c

E8ArmyDiver said:


> First I want to send props to the members who have provided 75+ pages of enough information to let me pull the trigger on an R28 with little reservation,as well as help me confirm & set up the latest 2021 version.Without that today would have been a TOTAL BUMMER!!!
> Second is props to Walter @ Underwood HiFi,who confirmed the value & performance of the unit,had it shipped right out & then put up with my paranoia after I received it..Highly recommended for all kinds of gear..
> Saturday,except for the last 4+ hours,SUCKED!
> Day started @ 0420,42 mile drive(yes I thought that funny too) to the jobsite.Ok,I can listen to football & make double overtime for 10 hours,I can hang..3 hours later a storm blew in & with 2,200' cranes set up,a million miles of steel girders exposed & enough water on the deck to literally float a dingy(one of our electrical lockers completely flooded at 9' total depth)the general ordered everyone off the site..6 hours lost wages & another 42 mile drive,oh well I can watch my beloved college football...
> ...


Good going!…NOS mode ☑️, Harbeth speakers ☑️…Robin Trower (esp. Bridge of Sighs…) ☑️…


----------



## SalvaRossi (Oct 4, 2021)

Hello, I'm a new member so I start with *a greeting to everyone*.

Last week I got *R28 (2021 v2)* and I'm burning it connected with a old notebook (Acer Aspire 5920G with Daphile) via usb (2.0). I have read about the issues related to the use of USB connections / protocol (and therefore the profitable use of devices such as Di20he etc) and I ask, with the explicit aim of limiting further expenses:
1) the notebook has *spdif output (toslink)*, could I use it with benefit (even reaching 96kHz) instead of the usb2.0 connection?
2) should I change notebook to get usb3.0?
3) the notebook is also equipped with a firewire port (400), an 'old' connection / protocol but designed for audio / video ... do you think it can be conveyed / transformed into usb?

Thanks to those who want to answer me.

Regards,
Salvatore


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Oct 4, 2021)

SalvaRossi said:


> Hello, I'm a new member so I start with *a greeting to everyone*.
> 
> Last week I got *R28 (2021 v2)* and I'm burning it connected with a old notebook (Acer Aspire 5920G with Daphile) via usb (2.0). I have read about the issues related to the use of USB connections / protocol (and therefore the profitable use of devices such as Di20he etc) and I ask, with the explicit aim of limiting further expenses:
> 1) the notebook has *spdif output (toslink)*, could I use it with benefit (even reaching 96kHz) instead of the usb2.0 connection?
> ...


Welcome to the board. 

It's all a matter of your own sensibility, imo.

I for my just listen via USB (3m cable) from my Surface Pro and never experienced any flaws.
My tv is connected via optical to the R28.
When you've a very noisy notebook, it's best to go with optical/spdif.

You can try it for yourself wether you'll like the sound over optical more. 

I don't think that FireWire is adaptable to USB, but I'm not sure about.

Have fun with your AGD.


----------



## sajunky

SalvaRossi said:


> Last week I got *R28 (2021 v2)* and I'm burning it connected with a old notebook (Acer Aspire 5920G with Daphile) via usb (2.0).


All Core 2 Duo chipsets have a modern USB implementation, should work well with R-28 with asynchronous transfers (no jitter added). If your laptop has 4GB RAM (it seems a maximum supported), then it can run comfortable all version of Windows from 7 to 10. It is from USB drivers perspective, not sure whether Acer support Win10. I can't comment on Daphile, but you can google on Amanero Combo384 compatibility with latest drivers. Custom Linux firmware is available for Amanero, not sure what is purpose.

1. It is always worth to test optical out, if it works better than USB, it means that ground loops are affecting a DAC internal operation and you need to deal with. If not better, then there is no definitive answer, as laptop S/PDIF implementation can be noisy. I would rather use external converter like this. It has I2S/HDMI, it can go on optical output up to 196kHz and is seen by a laptop as XU-208 receiver (using different drivers, it may be a clever solution for Daphile).

2. Not. USB 2.0 is sufficient for speed and features and less noisy. USB 3.x users can resort to use external 2.0 hub to isolate DAC from a noisy 3.x root hub. A self powered 2.0 hub is also useful for dealing with ground loops. As you see, you have more options.

3. I didn't see any firewire converter. It didn't catch in the audio market. Pity, as firewire was faster and more flexible than USB.


----------



## ocramida (Oct 4, 2021)

SalvaRossi said:


> Hello, I'm a new member so I start with *a greeting to everyone*.
> 
> Last week I got *R28 (2021 v2)* and I'm burning it connected with a old notebook (Acer Aspire 5920G with Daphile) via usb (2.0). I have read about the issues related to the use of USB connections / protocol (and therefore the profitable use of devices such as Di20he etc) and I ask, with the explicit aim of limiting further expenses:
> 1) the notebook has *spdif output (toslink)*, could I use it with benefit (even reaching 96kHz) instead of the usb2.0 connection?
> ...


FWIW I run a Raspberry Pi 3b (volumio server) directly to my R28 2021 and have no issues. Nothing fancy about 3b except I use an iFi iPower. Also use a basic 6 inch USB cable from Pi to R28. I know it isn't the same as a laptop, but still nothing extreme source-wise to enjoy music IMO. I feel that the R28 USB input is very robust.


----------



## Igor375375

*R-28 2022 Edition
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2822/R2822EN.htm*


----------



## ocramida

Igor375375 said:


> *R-28 2022 Edition
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2822/R2822EN.htm*


Having a difficult time figurign out what is different between 2021 and 2022. Only these two are listed as "New", but #2 was on 2021. Kingwa used the same comparison to say that it was similar to last gen with DI20HE.


1,  Digital input signal sampling display and simulate vinyl record sound flavor .*(New Feature)*
2,     USB  transmit the IIS signal to the FPGA processor and receive the clock signal from the FPGA processor, the USB interface without on board data clocks, the signal transmit is much exact, the sound quality get the much improve , close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20 (But not DI-20HE) level. *(New Feature)*


----------



## Chris Kaoss

ocramida said:


> Having a difficult time figurign out what is different between 2021 and 2022. Only these two are listed as "New", but #2 was on 2021. Kingwa used the same comparison to say that it was similar to last gen with DI20HE.
> 
> 
> 1,  Digital input signal sampling display and simulate vinyl record sound flavor .*(New Feature)*
> 2,     USB  transmit the IIS signal to the FPGA processor and receive the clock signal from the FPGA processor, the USB interface without on board data clocks, the signal transmit is much exact, the sound quality get the much improve , close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20 (But not DI-20HE) level. *(New Feature)*


Don't hang on the specs only.

The built quality and layout has refined over the years.
Just look at the pictures of the past years. 

I wish more manufacturer would show us their progress in craftsmanship to justify their price tags.


----------



## ocramida (Oct 4, 2021)

Chris Kaoss said:


> Don't hang on the specs only.
> 
> The built quality and layout has refined over the years.
> Just look at the pictures of the past years.
> ...


Agreed and a VERY good point. However I just got a 2021 in April, so trying not to buy another one so soon.  
Not that I'm complaining about the sound of the 2021. Continue to love it.


----------



## sajunky

ocramida said:


> Having a difficult time figurign out what is different between 2021 and 2022. Only these two are listed as "New", but #2 was on 2021. Kingwa used the same comparison to say that it was similar to last gen with DI20HE.


Agreed. A good news that it didn't share a fate of NFB-1AMP which was discontinued.


----------



## iFi audio

ocramida said:


> Nothing fancy about 3b except I use an iFi iPower.



If I may ask, does it work better than a stock charger? Did you notice anything in particular?


----------



## sajunky

iFi audio said:


> If I may ask, does it work better than a stock charger? Did you notice anything in particular?


He do have ifi power, so use it, thats all.


----------



## ocramida

iFi audio said:


> If I may ask, does it work better than a stock charger? Did you notice anything in particular?


FWIW, maybe a lower noise floor, smoother. But honestly for $50 it was an affordable tweak that makes me "feel" better.


----------



## iFi audio

ocramida said:


> FWIW, maybe a lower noise floor, smoother.



That's quite accurate, quality power feed makes music smoother, more relaxed and its background darker.



ocramida said:


> But honestly for $50 it was an affordable tweak that makes me "feel" better.



I understand and at the same time I'm happy that you're feeling better having our PSU nearby 

Thanks!


----------



## Zack W (Oct 6, 2021)

Hey guys, long time no see.  In short, I want to know how the R-28's DAC compares to the R7, to Denafrips products and to other Audio-gd D/S Dacs? (I've been reading this thread, but there's a lot.)

In less short, here is my whole rant. I started on Head-fi back in high school, around 2001. Made my way as far as a set of HE-5LE and an Audio-gd NFB-10SE.  I bought both used from other Head-fi'ers.  Wound up losing touch. I was so happy with my gear, I didn't want to know about anything else. There was an account wipe at some point, after I trailed off, here.

How I went down the rabbit hole: My HE-5LE kept dying. I finally gave up and got HE-560, but didn't really like them. At Canjam 2018, I heard LCD-4 on a Violectric stack. I was blown away. Didn't have $8k though, so I bought LCD-2c. Later, I did find the Violectric stack (V281 and V850) used and thought it was a step up. More resolution and more refined than the NFB-10SE. Then I got a THX-789 to see what the fuss was about and it showed me that I was still missing some resolution and low bass, even though I liked the Violectric class A signature better. Canjam 2020,  I stumbled into a floor model Audiovalve Solaris. Tried to flip it, failed, fell in love. Something had to go. So I sold the Violectric gear, refinanced my house and bought a Denafrips Venus and LCD-4. Next I bought a Topping A90 and gave the 789 and LCD-2c to my little brother. The last thing I bought was a Furman power conditioner and then some Amazon garden hose "audiophile" power cables DMS recommended. The cables actually helped the A90 a little bit.

Now we're caught up, here's my problem. I love my system, but I keep longing for slightly more resolution, slightly more forward vocals and better, stronger deep bass. I think I was missing the original signature of the NFB-10SE. So what did I do? I done screwed up. I pulled it off the shelf and gave a listen. I think it must really like the power conditioner.. Resolution no longer seems to be lacking and it really kicks up the dynamics over the Venus. Vocals are back in front and have that natural tone I missed. Low bass is more satisfying. The Venus still takes the cake in sound stage and refinement, but it's just too relaxed for me, I think. The Venus picks up spacial ques better though and the Solaris really runs with them. Perhaps it is a difference in decay? So, I'm kind of split down the middle. I would say the NFB-10 DAC has more resolution in the truest sense, but they pick up different things differently. The Venus is maybe more composed in complex passages, but it's close.

I went back and just read Sound News' review of the R7 and he holds it up over the Venus in all the ways that matter most to me. I think Sandu has the exact same taste that I do. I bought the Venus on his recommendation, but before that R7 review had been out. That and I heard my friend's Ares and liked it better than my other DACs at the time. It occurs to me, that the Violectric stack never lived up to the impression that it made on me at Canjam and I wonder if the power condition would have helped? Meh.

ANYWAY. The R7 freakin' is huge... And if the 10ish year old NFB-10SE is this good, I bet Audio-gd's bigger products are over kill. So, my real question is: How good/similar is the R-28's DAC compared to the R7? Will it have a similar signature and tonality to my old NFB-10? Can it really nail the low bass and dynamics like a modern D/S? If in real life, R-28 vs R7 is splitting hairs and Sandu isn't full of crap, then I could easily see the R-28 displacing the Venus and A90 for me. The Solaris would be tougher, but I'm open to it. I would so like to simplify my stack, especially if I had money left over, after selling some of my current gear.

I wondered if perhaps a Master 19 plugged into the Venus would inject some of that Audio-gd house sound? After spending more time comparing the DACs , I don't think that's a safe assumption. The NFB-10 has no analog inputs, but the NFB-10 driving the A90 is very close to the NFB-10 by itself.. Beside, I don't want to buy another straight solid state amp unless it can oust the Solaris and I don't know if that's going to be a thing. The NFB-10 into the Solaris is more punchy and vocal forward with a smoother, deeper sound stage and more clarity to certain things. The Venus like I said, picks up more spacial ques that the tubes really feed off of to make a wonderful, 3D stage. But laid back a bit, vocals often still recessed and lacks very deep bass. Also, while rare, certain mid to high pitch reverberations or vocal highs can be too much on this combo. My current system kicks ass with most acoustic stuff, but I listen to a lot of metal and electronic. Very well suited to this as well, but still looking for just the slight extra resolution, vocal forwardness and detail retrieval.

Anyone near Mass with modern Audio-gd products want to have a mini-meet?


----------



## sajunky

Zack W said:


> *My current system kicks ass with most acoustic stuff,* but I listen to a lot of metal and electronic. Very well suited to this as well, but still looking for just the slight extra resolution, vocal forwardness and detail retrieval.


This is a point, but "I don't need it"... 

I am afraid Venus was a mistake for this kind of music and R-28 having number of configuration options is going to improve it little bit, but not to the satisfying level because... it is R2R. ESS DAC?


----------



## Zack W

KillerQ said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Do you know of anyone in the US that does this upgrade?
> 
> https://magnahifi.com/audio-gd-r28-2021-full-service-upgrade/


Have you e-mailed Audio-gd? If there is a hardware change, I suspect it is a 'bolt on' upgrade, with a new board replacing an old one. If that is the case and you are uncomfortable working inside your amp, feel free to acquire the upgrade and send it to me with your R28 to install and audition


----------



## SalvaRossi

Hi guys,

I have a problem with my new R28-2021v2.
From Sunday, the rotator switch does not work to increase the volume but only to lower it.
This is in both preamp and headamp mode.
The volume control on the other hand works perfectly with the remote control.
On the advice of Jos (MagnaHifi), I pressed on the rotator switch from inside and I also unplugged and reattached the flat cable (rotator-display).. but no improvement.
Has this happened to anyone?
Advice?

Thanks in advance
Salvatore


----------



## ocramida

SalvaRossi said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a problem with my new R28-2021v2.
> From Sunday, the rotator switch does not work to increase the volume but only to lower it.
> ...


Nope no issue with my R28. Sounds like a defect. It happens.


----------



## jimmychan

Seems like a defected switch which is easy to be replaced.


----------



## HK_sends (Oct 18, 2021)

ocramida said:


> Having a difficult time figurign out what is different between 2021 and 2022. Only these two are listed as "New", but #2 was on 2021. Kingwa used the same comparison to say that it was similar to last gen with DI20HE.
> 
> 
> 1,  Digital input signal sampling display and simulate vinyl record sound flavor .*(New Feature)*
> 2,     USB  transmit the IIS signal to the FPGA processor and receive the clock signal from the FPGA processor, the USB interface without on board data clocks, the signal transmit is much exact, the sound quality get the much improve , close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20 (But not DI-20HE) level. *(New Feature)*


One not-so-good (lack of) feature is the 2022 version does not have unbalanced RCA inputs for using the R28's amp from an external DAC, just XLR.  Walter filled me in on that one...
Cheers! 
-HK sends


----------



## HK_sends

Just ordered the 2022 R28 from Underwood HiFi.  A big thanks to Walter for letting me interrupt his lunch to ask questions and place the order.  My goal is to see how well it pairs with the Audeze LCD-5 since the Burson Conductor isn't supposed to be a good match.
This will be my first Audio-GD product and first true R2R DAC.  Looking forward to it.
Cheers and All the Best!  
-HK sends


----------



## sajunky (Oct 19, 2021)

HK_sends said:


> One not-so-good (lack of) feature is the 2022 version does not have unbalanced RCA inputs for using the R28's amp from an external DAC, just XLR.  Walter filled me in on that one...
> Cheers!
> -HK sends


Good point, I didn't notice. IN5 (RCA) and IN6 (XLR) are replaced with IN5 (XLR), there is no IN6 anymore.
Underwood HiFi does a good job. Enjoy a new R-28.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

HK_sends said:


> One not-so-good (lack of) feature is the 2022 version does not have unbalanced RCA inputs for using the R28's amp from an external DAC, just XLR.  Walter filled me in on that one...
> Cheers!
> -HK sends


Oh.
That's a bad move, imo.
Like to add the Mojo to the R-28 for a different flavour, which wouldn't be possible without the RCA input.

Anyways, have fun with the R-28. 
Enjoy it right now with the FiiO FD5 unbalanced.


----------



## HK_sends

Chris Kaoss said:


> Oh.
> That's a bad move, imo.
> Like to add the Mojo to the R-28 for a different flavour, which wouldn't be possible without the RCA input.
> 
> ...


Walter said you can get RCA to 3-pin XLR adapters which would work but it still doesn't address the basic problem.  The 2022 version only allows one analog input when the 2021 version provided for two.  Let's hope Audio-gd sees the error of their ways and addresses this soon.
Cheers and All the Best! 
-HK sends


----------



## HK_sends (Oct 26, 2021)

Just got my 2022 in and have maybe 20 minutes on it listening with DCA Aeon 2 just to get circuits warmed up and start the burn-in (Audio-GD suggests 400 additional hours to their 100 hours).  However, it sounds pretty good out-the-gate but will give it a while to settle down and will try my Empyreans (and LCD-5 when it finally comes in).
Cheers and All the Best! 
-HK sends


----------



## Red_Devil_24

HK_sends said:


> Just got my 2022 in and have maybe 20 minutes on it listening with DCA Aeon 2 just to get circuits warmed up and start the burn-in (Audio-GD suggests 400 additional hours to their 100 hours).  However, it sounds pretty good out-the-gate but will give it a while to settle down and will try my Empyreans (and LCD-5 when it finally comes in).
> Cheers and All the Best!
> -HK sends


Looking forward to your impression, mine is on it's way.


----------



## Zack W

I've read a lot and posted a little. After continuing to enjoy and rediscover the signature of my old NFB-10SE, I decided to take the plunge. Since I have other equipment to mix and match, I decided to stay discrete and went with an R1 DAC and Master 19 amp. 

I got the amp last Friday and the DAC came Monday, so I've been about a week with it now. I am blown away by both units. 

At first both units had a super intense, deep, dynamic signature, if somewhat forced, in a way I can't really explain. With time, the sound has mellowed out a little. It is still powerful and dynamic, but also more free and open. Easier to just sit and listen to. 

Sound stage is quite deep and impressively 3D. In fact, I think the Master 19's stage is deeper than my Audiovalve tube amp. I never expected to say this about a solid state amp! Each sound permiates its space, but without trampling over any other sounds. The tube amp still permiates its stage even more fully, but that's what tubes do. Vocals are front row center, as they should be, but again, do not obscure anything behind them. At first, the sound stage almost felt like the music was playing in a long hallway. With some burn in, the stage has filled out more normally and is very coherent from side to side. 

Bass and mid-range heft are very good, without giving up detail or sounding bloated. The bass on both units is strong all the way down. There is a lushnes that you just don't get without going class A. Bass response and a feeling of heft are very important to me and I haven't much to say here. It's very good and that's that! 

Upper mids and highs are very clean, clear and natural. With so much going on in the lower half of the spectrum, I can sometimes feel that it is a little bottom heavy. But then, I do listen to a lot of rock and metal with grungy, heavy guitar riffs and such. When highs are more prominent, they seem perfectly balanced. Notably, there is no glare on any vocal highs, in places that I have experienced it with my other gear. This is big relief to me. 

Tonality, especially in the vocals where it matters most, is dead neutral and natural to my ear. Perhaps a tad warm, but I think that's more the full body and inviting weight of the sound. The tone itself seems perfectly natural to me. My Denafrips Venus has a slightly sweet, very slightly warm tilt to its tone. I would like this more, (sometimes I do like it more) but it is conspicuous and therefore less natural to me. 

I realize I am kind of saying all the same things about both units. This is because they both have the Audio-gd house sound. They will each bring this energy to other equipment individually and they complement each other perfectly. 

I expect that the R28 has the same signature and within a couple % of the total performance. In Kingwa's words when I was trying to decide, "Without the AB, R28 is enough good." I believe him. I have heard no other new Audio-gd gear though. I can say that comparing to my NFB-10SE, using its DAC out, the Master 19 is plainly a superior amp, but not night and day. The NFB-10SE is also 10 years old and a less expensive all in one. I expect the NFB-1 and D/R28s are even closer. For $650 less, I think R28 is absolutely the right choice for a one and done solution. I wish I had just bought one before going down the rabbit hole with all this other stuff. I simply didn't know. 

As for my other gear, the $2800 Venus will be put up for sale soon. It is a wonderful DAC with a very pleasant and slightly more relaxed presentation. It will make someone very happy. For my ears, it is over priced and I flat out prefer the R1. My Audiovalve Solaris will stay. It is splitting hairs between the Master 19, but still has a slightly more live, organic feel. The Master 19 is more like I would imagine sitting in the studio with the engineer. Both are thrilling experiences. That said, if someone broke into my house and took my Solaris, but left me the money for it, I would absolutely go buy a pair of SB3000 subwoofers for the living room and not look for another tube amp.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Zack W said:


> I've read a lot and posted a little. After continuing to enjoy and rediscover the signature of my old NFB-10SE, I decided to take the plunge. Since I have other equipment to mix and match, I decided to stay discrete and went with an R1 DAC and Master 19 amp.
> 
> I got the amp last Friday and the DAC came Monday, so I've been about a week with it now. I am blown away by both units.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the tech side of pleasant sound.
The Audio GD stuff isn't for folks who are looking for "nice to watch/ looking at" gear. 
They convince with their performance.

Here, one sentence become very true :
Never judge a book by its cover. 

Nice write up.
Glad to have you here with us.


----------



## Zack W

Chris Kaoss said:


> Welcome to the tech side of pleasant sound.
> The Audio GD stuff isn't for folks who are looking for "nice to watch/ looking at" gear.
> They convince with their performance.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris! 

The only thing I can say wrong about this gear's looks is the blue LCD displays. They are so bright! They would only make sense if you planned to use a generator and closed phones and listen on the beach in broad daylight. 

I think it was only Tuesday when I cut the seals and opened the lids. I inserted some dark photo gel sheets between the displays and the glass. Now they are about perfect.


----------



## jimmychan (Nov 2, 2021)

You could set the display to off but only a dash.

" *Left 5th. display : *Display
         Active (1)  the display auto dark, the display will become dark in around 10 seconds after stop operate any buttons . Disable (0) the display auto dark, the display  light always."


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Zack W said:


> Thanks Chris!
> 
> The only thing I can say wrong about this gear's looks is the blue LCD displays. They are so bright! They would only make sense if you planned to use a generator and closed phones and listen on the beach in broad daylight.
> 
> I think it was only Tuesday when I cut the seals and opened the lids. I inserted some dark photo gel sheets between the displays and the glass. Now they are about perfect.


Yes.
But it depends on the model.

The 10.33 i've had has a brighter light blue display, while the R28 has dark blue one, which you can set to auto off.

Even in a dark room it isn't an issue with. 👍


----------



## SalvaRossi

Hi guys,
on my R28-2021v2 I encountered the following issues:
1) The display auto-dark does not work;
2) The settings (NOS / oversampling modes and OUT) are not saved after switching off/on;
3) Apparently the sound does not change in the various NOS/oversampling settings;
4) the rotator switch isn't working for increase the volume.

For these issues, with the support of MagnaHifi, I will replace the MCU (behind the display) and hope to solve ...

Question: what is the function/use of the jumpers included in the R28-2021v2 package? The product page, on the Audio-gd website, is continuously updated and the specs/use manual of my R28-2021v2 can no longer be found..

Thanks in advance

Salvatore


----------



## ocramida

SalvaRossi said:


> Hi guys,
> on my R28-2021v2 I encountered the following issues:
> 1) The display auto-dark does not work;
> 2) The settings (NOS / oversampling modes and OUT) are not saved after switching off/on;
> ...


I have the 2021 and the jumpers are not used since all options can be access through the screen. 

But you have a defective unit, so you will have access to options once it is repaired.


----------



## Zack W

I set my DAC to auto dark and leave it on. My other R2R DACs seem to like being left on. Any thoughts on the R1? 

I do prefer to leave the amp display on though. So, the dark film to dim the lights was absolutely worthwhile.


----------



## Red_Devil_24 (Nov 2, 2021)

SalvaRossi said:


> Hi guys,
> on my R28-2021v2 I encountered the following issues:
> 1) The display auto-dark does not work;
> 2) The settings (NOS / oversampling modes and OUT) are not saved after switching off/on;
> ...


Here's the 2020 version, I think the fonctions are the same.
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R282020/R282020EN_Use.htm

Edit: I found the 2021 version
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN_Use.htm


----------



## HK_sends

192 hours of continuous play/burn-in/what-bloody-ever... Okay, new horizons have not opened before me, I have not seen other dimensions or levels of Heaven or hell...
However, This is a combination that has tamed the Empyrean headphone's bass and brought the level of mid detail and even a touch of treble out into the open.  The Empy's are never going to be mistaken for neutral or analytical, but the R28 has tightened the bass and helped them to sound more musical and enjoyable.  I have listened at different oversampling rates as well as NOS and haven't developed a preference yet (depends on my mood I guess, and what's playing).
Am I going to keep it running the whole 400 (recommended) hours?  If my blasted LCD-5 ever shows up, then probably yes.  Even now, anytime I get the itch (which is often) I can just sit down and listen to music already playing for a couple minutes...that somehow stretches into an hour or so.

That's really the best compliment I could give the R28.
Cheers and All the Best!  
-HK sends

Yes...I am listening to "_Electric Light Orchestra_" on the Empy's plugged into the R28 as I write this...


----------



## bouscadie

What is the temperature? I often want to go back to AGD but the heat is something that always ends up displeasing me .... This one is not different?


----------



## SalvaRossi

Red_Devil_24 said:


> Ecco la versione 2020, penso che le funzioni siano le stesse.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R282020/R282020EN_Use.htm
> 
> Edit: ho trovato la versione 2021
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN_Use.htm


Thanks.
However on my R28-2021v2 I cannot find this setting:

*Warmer sound setting : *
The unit had built in a lot setting in the FPGA for users select the best suite sound flavors but they only effect the digital inputs.
Push into 4 pcs jumper for got the warmer sound flavor. It is effect for all inputs.




So the question remains: what is the function/use of the jumpers included in the R28-2021v2 package?

Thanks

Salvatore


----------



## Red_Devil_24

SalvaRossi said:


> Thanks.
> However on my R28-2021v2 I cannot find this setting:
> 
> *Warmer sound setting : *
> ...


I don't know my R28 2022 did not come with any jumpers


----------



## chenxiw

has anybody compared r-28 with r-27?


----------



## ToddRaymond

chenxiw said:


> has anybody compared r-28 with r-27?


There appear to be very few impressions out there by folks who have heard both.

The R-27 was exactly what I wish had been available at the time that I purchased my R-28.  On the other hand, perhaps the R-28 is ultimately the better value.  Going for separates might be optimal if one is chasing the best.

I am tempted to get an R-27 though, to use in the living room setup initially, and then long-term in my bedroom/office setup. Even then, it would difficult to part with my R-28.

It should be pointed out that, according to my correspondence with Kingwa, the R-27 contains the equivalent of the Master 19, and not the Master 9 (how could it).


----------



## chenxiw

ToddRaymond said:


> There appear to be very few impressions out there by folks who have heard both.
> 
> The R-27 was exactly what I wish had been available at the time that I purchased my R-28.  On the other hand, perhaps the R-28 is ultimately the better value.  Going for separates might be optimal if one is chasing the best.
> 
> ...


Ty for sharing! I guess R-28 is good enough, and better value as you say


----------



## Zack W

If anyone near MA has an R28, we can try it out against my R1 / Master 19 stack. Is that basically what the R27 is?


----------



## chenxiw

Zack W said:


> If anyone near MA has an R28, we can try it out against my R1 / Master 19 stack. Is that basically what the R27 is?


I believe they are better than R-27.


----------



## ToddRaymond

The R-28 is essentially the NFB-1 + R-1 combined.

The R-27 is more like the Master 19 + R-8.


----------



## HK_sends (Nov 14, 2021)

Well folks,
After 400 additional recommended hours of burn-in with multiple multi-hour, I-can't-pull-myself-away sampling sessions, I am very impressed with the R28 (2022).  Unfortunately, my LCD-5s still haven't arrived so all the playback was on my Meze Empyrean.  I admit I was a little snarky with my previous post about new worlds and horizons not opening up for me with the R28 but there was a grain of truth to the post as I will try to explain here.

My only DAC experiences have been the common Delta Sigma and Schiit's version of Multibit.  In the case of the Delta Sigma (being a believer in circuit/brain/line/system/metaphysical/unicorn/whathaveyou burn-in), I could hear changes in sound quality over time.  Some could be minor like smoothing of treble or tightening of bass.  Sometimes the changes were almost drastic like the soundstage opening out and gaining air and detail.  I understand the DAC is only one component in the system but can contribute significantly to the changes...IMHO/YMMV.

To me, the thing about the R28 is it started out by sounding fantastic with a mature sound that Delta Sigma (and Multibit) evolve into over time.  So why bother with a recommended 400 hour burn-in?  Nuance.  Subtlety.  Feeling like you are a part of the music.  Being able to pick out whatever part of the music you want and just track on that for the whole song...or...listen to the music as a whole and feel like you haven't missed a thing.  It's powerful and the amp just gets out of the way.  When I started using it I was concerned it was too powerful for the Meze Empyreans which are very easy to drive and on low gain the highest volume I could listen to for my comfort was around 25-30.  The Empy's could take more but I couldn't.  I didn't dare try high gain for fear of setting off the smoke alarm.

I haven't written a review in years so I am not use to using those marketing words that reviewers throw around when they are trying to get you to buy meat (organic, lean), wine (full-bodied, sweet, dry), or real estate (lush, warm, dry), etc...  So I will only tell you of my experience with my Empy and the R28.  I played my favorite flac playlists from ELO, The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, The Alan Parsons Project, Manheim Steamroller, and Howard Shore's Complete LOTR Soundtrack.  I used each oversampling setting and non-oversampling for at least a day plus the Simulated Vinyl setting.  As I said previously, I listened in from time to time for what ended up to be extended sessions.

Results: I have seen reviews and opinions of the Meze Empyreans that said they weren't worth their flagship price.  That they were muddy and bloated in the bass and lacked treble, air and detail.  Obviously, the reviewers and people with those opinions have never heard them with the R28.  I have never heard the Empyrean sound so balanced and controlled on any other piece of equipment that I have owned.  The bass was not reduced but brought under control and doesn't dominate the lower mids but when you need it, it is there.  Sub bass is there...I got rumble from frequencies I never expected.  But overall everything is balanced with more levels of detail and nuanced character.
For me, the Meze Empyrean sounds like a flagship headphone.  That's the best compliment I can give the R28.

Is there better out there?  Of course there is, but I'm finally at a good starting point.  Time to enjoy it for a while...
Cheers and All the Best! 
-HK sends


----------



## Igor375375

HK_sends said:


> Well folks,
> After 400 additional recommended hours of burn-in with multiple multi-hour, I-can't-pull-myself-away sampling sessions, I am very impressed with the R28 (2022).  Unfortunately, my LCD-5s still haven't arrived so all the playback was on my Meze Empyrean.  I admit I was a little snarky with my previous post about new worlds and horizons not opening up for me with the R28 but there was a grain of truth to the post as I will try to explain here.
> 
> My only DAC experiences have been the common Delta Sigma and Schiit's version of Multibit.  In the case of the Delta Sigma (being a believer in circuit/brain/line/system/metaphysical/unicorn/whathaveyou burn-in), I could hear changes in sound quality over time.  Some could be minor like smoothing of treble or tightening of bass.  Sometimes the changes were almost drastic like the soundstage opening out and gaining air and detail.  I understand the DAC is only one component in the system but can contribute significantly to the changes...IMHO/YMMV.
> ...


Good afternoon.
Thank you for your feedback, also thanks to him.....
....Ordered an Audio GD R-28 2022, due in early December. This is my first R2R, now have a Singxer SDA-2c, here will compare different DAC technology. Will write a review for sure.


----------



## EMINENT

Any comparisons to RME ADI2 Dac FS or Gustard X26 Pro?


----------



## Postmodum

For the owners or those who really can help me with the question/answer.
R28 2022 vs Burson Conductor... 

Thinking about going the next step from my Burson Playmate ... and I ended up on this short list


----------



## HK_sends

Postmodum said:


> For the owners or those who really can help me with the question/answer.
> R28 2022 vs Burson Conductor...
> 
> Thinking about going the next step from my Burson Playmate ... and I ended up on this short list


Hey there, sorry for taking so long to reply but I was under the weather yesterday.  That's a real toughie to answer.  I have the Conductor 3XR and R28 2022 and they both have their strengths.  It's really going to come down to what sound you are looking for and how comfortable you are with difficult interfaces.  Seeing as you already have a Playmate, the Conductor's controls will be familiar.  The 3XR has 4-Pin balanced out (so does the R28), the 3R is single-ended only but is a little cheaper (the R28 has balanced and single-ended output).  The Conductor has roll-able OpAmps.  Finally, Burson has a Black Friday sale on their audio gear right now.  The Conductor is going to sound like the Playmate 2, but better...

The R28 is all about nuance, layering, and subtle detail.  It's also about very long recommended burn-in times to get there (to the point where some folks don't even sense a difference in the sound...for the record, I do).  Most frustratingly, the interface requires trying to interpret three web pages on the R28 from three different years (non of which are fully updated), and the helpful advice of the members of this forum.  Audio-gd is one of those older Chinese companies that put out some amazing audio products that perform way above expectations...once you have figured out how to make it perform as intended.  While an amplifier may not be so difficult to work out, a R2R DAC that has oversampling/non-oversampling and separate DSD processing modes is a bit difficult to navigate.  With some digging around and the help on the forum, you can get things going...I'm listening to my R28 right now and it sounds fantastic!  But you need to do the research into how much effort you want to spend on getting good sound.

Honestly, either choice you make...you'll come up Aces!

Cheers and All the Best! 
-HK sends


----------



## Igor375375

HK_sends said:


> ....... a R2R DAC that has oversampling/non-oversampling and separate DSD processing modes is a bit difficult to navigate.
> -HK sends


Hello. Please tell me which DAC setting you prefer? I prefer the NOS setting in my Singxer SDA-2. My R-28 2022 hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## HK_sends

Igor375375 said:


> Hello. Please tell me which DAC setting you prefer? I prefer the NOS setting in my Singxer SDA-2. My R-28 2022 hasn't arrived yet.


I prefer NOS.  Occasionally I like to play around with oversampling but end upgoing back to NOS for regular listening.
Cheers!  
-HK sends


----------



## Igor375375

HK_sends said:


> I prefer NOS.  Occasionally I like to play around with oversampling but end upgoing back to NOS for regular listening.
> Cheers!
> -HK sends


Thank you ))) Enjoy listening to it. Can't wait for my device to arrive, can't wait to compare it with Singxer ))))


----------



## Zack W

I finally tried different filters on my R1 the other night. I think I like 2x over sampling the best. 

To my ears, 8x gives the best definition but NOS gives the best sense of space and sounds the most effortless. 8x can sound a little strained by comparison.

 I would like NOS the best, but it gives up too much on complex passages. I listen to a lot of rock and metal. A couple electric guitars can quickly turn into a wall of noise, especially on a compressed recording. 

For me, 2x gives 90+% the best of both!


----------



## HK_sends

It's always good to have options! Use what sounds best to you!
Cheers!
-HK sends


----------



## Mapman (Dec 20, 2021)

khordo said:


> OK done ! Just received yesterday my R-28 2021 Edition...
> Too early to make my opinion about this combo, but after one day, i can say that comments from AudioAlex & sajunky are 100% right...
> 
> I did not change my HQPlayer Settings, set the DAC to Nos Mode, plug the Utopia with XLR Cable and Press play...More Musical, effortless...This R2R Produces music, with great precisionbut keep it very Natural...
> ...


I have the 2021 version, and have some issues connecting a smart TV and Audiolab CDT6000. On the optical input #3, I attach a Roku Television and when I have #3and#4 inputs running, input #1 has a loud digital noise. When the CDT goes into sleep mode, it will generate a digital signal in error, and I will find my system with a loud digital noise.
Would it be possible for r28 owners to try to replicate my problem scenerio in DAC mode?

Thanks


----------



## Mapman

Zack W said:


> Hey guys, long time no see.  In short, I want to know how the R-28's DAC compares to the R7, to Denafrips products and to other Audio-gd D/S Dacs? (I've been reading this thread, but there's a lot.)
> 
> In less short, here is my whole rant. I started on Head-fi back in high school, around 2001. Made my way as far as a set of HE-5LE and an Audio-gd NFB-10SE.  I bought both used from other Head-fi'ers.  Wound up losing touch. I was so happy with my gear, I didn't want to know about anything else. There was an account wipe at some point, after I trailed off, here.
> 
> ...


I replaced the preamp part of the r28 with the Hades from denafrips and the sound was much improved. In my opinion, the preamp section is the weakest part. I think the preamp makes some 80s CDs sound strange. The Dac section sounds great.


----------



## Mapman

Zack W said:


> Thanks Chris!
> 
> The only thing I can say wrong about this gear's looks is the blue LCD displays. They are so bright! They would only make sense if you planned to use a generator and closed phones and listen on the beach in broad daylight.
> 
> I think it was only Tuesday when I cut the seals and opened the lids. I inserted some dark photo gel sheets between the displays and the glass. Now they are about perfect.


The first thing you should do is switch the display into single dot mode.


----------



## Igor375375

Good evening. I also received my R-28 2022. The device plays its money back 100%. Warmed for 400 hours, Kingwa says 100 hours warmed at the factory. I will have 500 hours of warming on 31.12.2021 just in time for New Year's Eve. Here are my first impressions:
https://www.dastereo.ru/t/czapy-i-k...-strannye-zaklinaniya/31586/1155?u=igor375375
I'll write more after the warm-up. But I'm already very happy with the sound. This is my first device with R2R technology, now I understand why it has such respect in audiophile circles.


----------



## Mapman (Dec 20, 2021)

Try using it to process pcm streamed music from a smart TV.


----------



## Igor375375

Mapman said:


> Try using it to process pcm streamed music from a smart TV.


From YouTube really liked it. 
https://www.dastereo.ru/t/czapy-i-k...-strannye-zaklinaniya/31586/1307?u=igor375375


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Igor375375 said:


> From YouTube really liked it.
> https://www.dastereo.ru/t/czapy-i-k...-strannye-zaklinaniya/31586/1307?u=igor375375


My russian isn't that good, but I'm happy with you.


----------



## Gimmesomeaudio

any ideas if r28 pairs well with the hifiman he100se? thanks


----------



## Mapman

It sounds good with he400 drop v1.


----------



## ALFA100

Please post review in English


----------



## KZCloud89

Hi guys,

I have the R28 on order will arrive soon can't wait.  I'm currently using the NFB-10WM and Kingwa said R28 with have more details/resolution as well with bigger soundstage with tighter control especially in the sub-bass.  Headphones are mainly Denon D7000 and Fostex 900/909.

I will use R28 to feed both Woo Audio WA22 with balanced XLR
                                   and Woo Audio WA6-SE with unbalanced RCA.

Will R28 automatically detect which amp to feed the signal when I turn the amp on?
Also will R28 simultaneously feed both amps signal thru XLR and RCA at the same time?

The default setting with R28 is OS8X correct?


Thanks


----------



## Jandu (Apr 29, 2022)

KZCloud89 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have the R28 on order will arrive soon can't wait.  I'm currently using the NFB-10WM and Kingwa said R28 with have more details/resolution as well with bigger soundstage with tighter control especially in the sub-bass.  Headphones are mainly Denon D7000 and Fostex 900/909.
> 
> ...


It will feed both at all time, unless it is physically disconnected. If your system is sensitive enough, you may be able to hear a minute difference if you physically disconnect it. My system can't tell.


----------



## KZCloud89

Jandu said:


> It will feed both at all time, unless it is physically disconnected. If your system is sensitive enough, you may be able to hear a minute difference if you physically disconnect it. My system can't tell.


Just got a reply from Kingwa confirming that both XLR/RCA outputs are active simultaneously.  He didn't mention if it will degrade the signal or not.  Thanks!


----------



## ProLoL

KZCloud89 said:


> Just got a reply from Kingwa confirming that both XLR/RCA outputs are active simultaneously.  He didn't mention if it will degrade the signal or not.  Thanks!


It will actually improve the signal, switches will degrade it. Questyle implement the same, all outputs work simultaneously.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

KZCloud89 said:


> Just got a reply from Kingwa confirming that both XLR/RCA outputs are active simultaneously.  He didn't mention if it will degrade the signal or not.  Thanks!


Thanks.

Let the amp pairings begin.


----------



## Igor375375

KZCloud89 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have the R28 on order will arrive soon can't wait.


Congratulations. I'm getting more and more excited about the device. I use XLR output to the integrated amplifier and XLR output to the headphones. It needs at least 500 hours of warm-up time and at least 30 minutes before each use.


----------



## KZCloud89

Thanks! Received it last Friday and it's been on the whole time.  The next two weeks is gonna be torture lol.  
Initial impressions compared to my old NFB-10WM is lots more detail (I'm using default OS8X).  Instruments separation is much better with pitch black background.
Female vocal seems to be more present and upfront.  Haven't test out bass heavy tracks yet will report back after break-in period.


----------



## xenithon

I know it’s probably unlikely, but has anyone perhaps tried the Oriolus Traillii on the R28?


----------



## houdini06

Hey guys I just bought the R28 will it connect to my Audio-GD – DI20HE


----------



## Igor375375

houdini06 said:


> Hey guys I just bought the R28 will it connect to my Audio-GD – DI20HE


Congratulations on the cool device. Of course it will be, we have users using the R-28 and DI20HE together, only positive feedback and delight. Please write your impressions. I also plan to buy a USB converter, but I'm leaning more towards Denafrips GAIA.


----------



## houdini06

Igor375375 said:


> Congratulations on the cool device. Of course it will be, we have users using the R-28 and DI20HE together, only positive feedback and delight. Please write your impressions. I also plan to buy a USB converter, but I'm leaning more towards Denafrips GAIA.


Any reason why the GAIA ?. I  really like my Di20HE.


----------



## Igor375375 (Jul 5, 2022)

houdini06 said:


> Любая причина, почему GAIA?. Мне очень нравится мой Di20HE.


GAIA: Industry-leading USB audio interface solution based on the STM32F466 Advanced AMR MCU. The Di20HE has exactly the same USB module as my R-28 2022 - Amanero, a good module but quite ancient. GAIA is more advanced technology in everything except power supply, Di20HE has it recuperative, I don't know how important it is.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 5, 2022)

Igor375375 said:


> GAIA: ведущее в отрасли решение USB-аудиоинтерфейса на базе MCU STM32F466 Advanced AMR. The Di20HE has exactly the same USB module as my R-28 2022 - Amanero, a good module but quite ancient. GAIA is more advanced technology in everything except power supply, Di20HE has it recuperative, I don't know how important it is.


Please share any news why Gaia has better USB implementation than Amanero. In my books Amanero is a solution (as a ready module or a licensed chipset) used in number high-end implementations. It is a two-chips design. A microprocessor with a sufficient speed for handling USB protocol and an advanced CPLD decoder chip for low jitter decoding logic. STM microprocessor, even the fastest one cannot handle jitter-free decoding, IHMO.

R-28 will benefit from DI-20 (not to mention HE version), as it doesn't have isolation on the USB port. Galvanic USB isolation is only offered in top-end R-8/R-7 MK2 models. These are identical in design with DI-20, but still benefit from DI-20, it is other issue.

A word about USB galvanic isolation in DI-20. It is a bidirectional isolator to assure asynchronous clock delivery from USB host to the output. Others, depend on internal reclocking. Gaia probably too, as Denafrips reclock everything. Audio GD approach is unique, as internal ultra-low jitter oscilators are used directly, avoiding losses on reclocking when data can be delivered asynchronously.


----------



## Igor375375

sajunky said:


> Please share any news why Gaia has better USB implementation than Amanero.


I'm not sure I'm right. I like my Amanero, just looking into the issue for now. Do you recommend in addition to my Audio GD R-28 ( 2022 ) to buy a DI20HE rather than a GAIA ?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> R-28 will benefit from DI-20 (not to mention HE version), as it [_sic_ the *R28*] doesn't have isolation on the USB port. Galvanic USB isolation is only offered in top-end R-8/R-7 MK2 models. These are identical in design with DI-20, but still benefit from DI-20, it is other issue.



Agree with @sajunky, especially if you have Audio-gd gear, DI-20HE is the best possible DDC. If you don't want to spend the  extra money, the DI-20 is a great value.



Igor375375 said:


> I'm not sure I'm right. I like my Amanero, just looking into the issue for now. Do you recommend in addition to my Audio GD R-28 ( 2022 ) to buy a DI20HE rather than a GAIA ?



Yes, that's what we're saying.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Agree with @sajunky, especially if you have Audio-gd gear, DI-20HE is the best possible DDC. If you don't want to spend the  extra money, the DI-20 is a great value.



Thank you )))


----------



## jimmychan

For those who are interested in the Audio-GD DI-20HE vs GAIA, you could find the test result here:

https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/04/denafrips-gaia-measurements-with-terminator-clock-sync-test/

" Overall, the Gaia is an excellently performing DDC.
It falls ever so slightly behind some other choices like the DI20HE and SU6 in performance, but the added features, and matching aesthetics with Denafrips dacs may be more important to many."

I hope this will help.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

"The test results" sounds a little too enthusiastic and final. Maybe "a review" would be more accurate. There are endless review sites and opinions and those comments are far from definitive.


----------



## JaMo

Yes, A sober compare by listening to the devices is always the way to go. I haven't heard the Gaia but I am sure it is a nice re-clocker/digital converter. If a Master clock is an important part in Your rig and Your rigs performance, I think that the Gaia has strange choices of external clock inputs with 49.152 MHz and 45.1548 MHz. They are not alone with this but it is a bit unusual. The DI20/HE re-clocks USB and SPDIF based on a good internal XO's but the wonders happens when a really good external XO of 10MHz (Master clock) is connected and conducts the "duck march of bits". When we are at it I think a quick look at the Gustard U18 DDC is relevant. It does a really good job connected to a 10MHz Master clock. The U18 is an Only-USB digital interface but a great one for the money (<USD500 with global delivery)
my 2cents/J


----------



## sajunky (Jul 5, 2022)

JaMo said:


> If a Master clock is an important part in Your rig and Your rigs performance, I think that the Gaia has strange choices of external clock inputs with 49.152 MHz and 45.1548 MHz. They are not alone with this but it is a bit unusual. The DI20/HE re-clocks USB and SPDIF based on a good internal XO's but the wonders happens when a really good external XO of 10MHz (Master clock) is connected and conducts the "duck march of bits".


Gaia external clock ports only for works with Terminator, it is their own solution to avoid clock synthesiser. It makes a set not upgradable, clocks on the Terminator are final. All others have accepted 10MHz clock as a standard external source, it gives flexibility. In the case of R-28 it doesn't make difference (there is no external clock input), but for a quality of power supply it is difficult to beat DI-20, not to mention HE version, as it is far above competitors.

I have to say that neither R-28 v2022 nor any model of DI-20 (HE) do reclocking on the USB port. The output of DI-20 is driven directly from one of the internal oscilators and USB host transfers are synchronised to these internal clocks. The same with R28 2022 version. Internal clocks drive R2R ladder directly. In theory, R-28 do not need a DDC, as there is no added jitter on the USB connection, right? It is a prime textbook example where it should be no difference, but a quality of power supply matters. Getting rid of ground loops noise is the main purpose of a DDC. All reclocking or no reclocking or how it is clocked debate is a secondary issue.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Gaia external clock ports only for works with Terminator, it is their own solution to avoid clock synthesiser. It makes a set not upgradable, clocks on the Terminator are final. All others have accepted 10MHz clock as a standard external source, it gives flexibility. In the case of R-28 it doesn't make difference (there is no external clock input), but for a quality of power supply it is difficult to beat DI-20, not to mention HE version, as it is far above competitors.
> 
> I have to say that neither R-28 v2022 nor any model of DI-20 (HE) do reclocking on the USB port. The output of DI-20 is driven directly from one of the internal oscilators and USB host transfers are synchronised to these internal clocks. The same with R28 2022 version. Internal clocks drive R2R directly. In theory, R-28 do not need a DDC, as there is no added jitter on the USB connection, right? It is a prime textbook example where it should be no difference, but a quality of power supply matters. Getting rid of ground loops noise is the main purpose of a DDC. All reclocking or no reclocking or how it is clocked debate is a secondary issue.


But, I guess non-USB connections on the R28 could benefit from reclocking i.e. AES/EBU, coax, etc.

I don't have a 10 MHz clock to drive my DI-20s, but in fact running the DI-20/HE to the Mutec MC-3+ USB over AES does add some sparkle and clarity/air.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 5, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> But, I guess non-USB connections on the R28 could benefit from reclocking i.e. AES/EBU, coax, etc.
> 
> I don't have a 10 MHz clock to drive my DI-20s, but in fact running the DI-20/HE to the Mutec MC-3+ USB over AES does add some sparkle and clarity/air.


Yes, USB is only one interface with asynchronous data delivery (slaved to a DDC/DAC clock). All other interfaces follow a source clock, synchronising its own clock to the source clock. It means that a final quality depends on the source clock.

With Mutec you can also feed DI-20 with external clock from Mutec. It helps avoiding use of PLL for clock synchronisation. To be exact, PLL is still used for decoding serial data, but a final clock synchronisation is based on the external clock input. Also an ideal scenario, almost zero-jitter, similar result to the asynchronous data delivery method.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Yes, USB is only one interface with asynchronous data delivery (slaved to a DDC/DAC clock). All other interfaces follow a source clock, synchronising its own clock to the source clock. It means that a final quality depends on the source clock.
> 
> With Mutec you can also feed DI-20 with external clock from Mutec. It helps avoiding use of PLL for clock synchronisation. To be exact, PLL is still used for decoding serial data, but a final clock synchronisation is based on the external clock input. Also an ideal scenario, almost zero-jitter, similar result to the asynchronous data delivery method.


You meant the REF10 Mutec clock? It's on my list but it might be a while, that's a lot of money.


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> You meant the REF10 Mutec clock? It's on my list but it might be a while, that's a lot of money.


Do MC-3+USB have 10MHz BNC clock output? You can use. If not, you can use any 10MHz external clock to synchronise both MC-3+USB and DI-20 with the same clock source.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 5, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Do MC-3+USB have 10MHz BNC clock output? You can use. If not, you can use any 10MHz external clock to synchronise both MC-3+USB and DI-20 with the same clock source.


It does not, but it has a 10 MHz clock input- but I don't have a 10 MHz clock. It has multiple clock outputs but it's WCLK and multiples, 10 MHz isn't possible.

I do use the DI-20 word clock into my Brooklyn DAC+ which is kinda cool. Now that I think of it, I don't know if I saw a spec for the DI-20/HE clock output. Do you know if it's 50 or 75 ohms? A 75 ohm BNC connector works fine.










I did not try running the DI-20HE WCLK into the Mutec, I assumed the Mutec internal clock would be better. But it might be a good idea to use the DI-20HE as a master clock when recording with one of my TASCAMs off the Mutec which runs off the DI-20HE...


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> It does not, but it has a 10 MHz clock input- but I don't have a 10 MHz clock. It has multiple clock outputs but it's WCLK and multiples, 10 MHz isn't possible.
> 
> I do use the DI-20 word clock into my Brooklyn DAC+ which is kinda cool. Now that I think of it, I don't know if I saw a spec for the DI-20/HE clock output. Do you know if it's 50 or 75 ohms? A 75 ohm BNC connector works fine.
> 
> ...


DI-20 clock inputs/outputs have impedance 50 Ohms, but signal levels are different. The input follows 10MHz standard, the output use LVDS logic levels. For me it is strange, as it is not differential output, but it says such way in the manual:



> *CLK OUT ：*
> Outputs 256fs main clock or LRCK/WCLK (3.3V LVDS @ 50 Ohm) . User-selectable .
> *INPUT S/PDIF ：*
> RCA 75 Ohm coaxial audio input (0.5VPP @ 75 Ohm) .
> ...



75 Ohm BNC connector looks very similar to the 50 Ohm, they mate together, but there are different. Some companies mix them allowing user configurable option, but it is not a proper way. When it is for feeding a clock, impedance matching must be followed from the source through cable to the receiver. If it is impossible 100% matching, the a cable must be very short.

You cannot use DI-20 clock output as a master clock source for the upstream device (Mutec in this case), as it is dependent on the input sample rate. Such feedback could result in instability. The clock output in DI-20 is solely designated for the downstream devices like a DAC. It would be great to have a standard 10MHz clock output, it could be used in both directions.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> DI-20 clock inputs/outputs have impedance 50 Ohms, but signal levels are different. The input follows 10MHz standard, the output use LVDS logic levels. For me it is strange, as it is not differential output, but it says such way in the manual:
> 
> 
> 75 Ohm BNC connector looks very similar to the 50 Ohm, they mate together, but there are different. Some companies mix them allowing user configurable option, but it is not a proper way. When it is for feeding a clock, impedance matching must be followed from the source through cable to the receiver. If it is impossible 100% matching, the a cable must be very short.


Yes, I know. But I didn't find the spec until you posted it. Thanks for that.



sajunky said:


> You cannot use DI-20 clock output as a master clock source for the upstream device (Mutec in this case), as it is dependent on the input sample rate. Such feedback could result in instability. The clock output in DI-20 is solely designated for the downstream devices like a DAC. It would be great to have a standard 10MHz clock output, it could be used in both directions.


I did not find the clock spec on the specs page, but I found the info you quoted on the user manual page  Indeed, the DI-20's clock out worked fine with the Brooklyn (even if the wrong impedance) until I played DSD.

These incompatibles are annoying. It would be nice if the hifi companies would use the pro standard 75 ohms.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 6, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> These incompatibles are annoying. It would be nice if the hifi companies would use the pro standard 75 ohms.


75 Ohms is a standard for TV Antenaes, security systems. It was also adopted by S/PDIF many years ago, but implementation is lousy, even RCA connector is completely inadequate.

50 Ohm BNC connector is a generic type for radio communication in military, HAM, general industry, measuring equipment like oscilloscopes, e.t.c. There are quality cables on the market for this standard, even those conforming to the strict military specs, you don't need to buy "audiophile type" for $xxx. It is why 50 Ohm BNC is adopted for 10 MHz clock distribution in audio, I am very happy with.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> 75 Ohms is a standard for TV Antenaes, security systems. It was also adopted by S/PDIF many years ago, but implementation is lousy, even RCA connector is completely inadequate.



It's the standard in pro audio / video and has been for decades using BNC connectors, so to me it doesn't make sense to start using 50 ohm systems. Agree on the RCA connector, but that's not used in pro audio /video, S/PDIF is strictly a consumer interface. So, not related.



sajunky said:


> 50 Ohm BNC connector is a generic type for radio communication in military, HAM, general industry, measuring equipment like oscilloscopes, e.t.c. There are quality cables on the market for this standard, even those conforming to the strict military specs, you don't need to buy "audiophile type" for $xxx. It is why 50 Ohm BNC is adopted for 10 MHz clock distribution in audio, I am very happy with.



Well, except that clock distribution in pro audio and video gear with a BNC connector has been 75 ohms forever. TASCAM, RME, Mutec, Mytek, the list goes on and on. So it was a bad move for hifi companies to select 50 ohm and come up with another incompatible setup like they did with S/PDIF.


----------



## amiga505

I read in the thread that the DAC in R28 is really a R1 Audio-GD DAC (but I see no way to switch to different NOS/OS modes as in R1). so, the DAC in R28 2020 edition will be what, the 2018 version of R1?


----------



## Jandu

amiga505 said:


> I read in the thread that the DAC in R28 is really a R1 Audio-GD DAC (but I see no way to switch to different NOS/OS modes as in R1). so, the DAC in R28 2020 edition will be what, the 2018 version of R1?


My version of R28, older version, requires to open the box to change pins in different positions to achieve different sound. The current version changes on the front.


----------



## xenithon

Has anyone here connected a DAP to the R28’s analog inputs? Any issues with it or does it work quite seamlessly?

Thinking it would be interesting to try out the R28 via analog balanced input (from DAP balanced line out) and compare to digital in to the R28 (via coax or USB).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

xenithon said:


> Has anyone here connected a DAP to the R28’s analog inputs? Any issues with it or does it work quite seamlessly?
> 
> Thinking it would be interesting to try out the R28 via analog balanced input (from DAP balanced line out) and compare to digital in to the R28 (via coax or USB).



I think Kingwa would probably take out a contract on you after reading your post. Personally, I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that


----------



## Chris Kaoss

xenithon said:


> Has anyone here connected a DAP to the R28’s analog inputs? Any issues with it or does it work quite seamlessly?
> 
> Thinking it would be interesting to try out the R28 via analog balanced input (from DAP balanced line out) and compare to digital in to the R28 (via coax or USB).


Never tried a dap, but Mojo.
Just for the sake of curiosity.
Works flawless, and ,obviously, gives a different presentation.


----------



## sajunky

xenithon said:


> Has anyone here connected a DAP to the R28’s analog inputs? Any issues with it or does it work quite seamlessly?


Any phone or DAP with USB audio output is compatible Audio GD DAC or DDC. A reason of your concern is a load a receiver takes from the portable device. It can be to high, many people have problem with. In this case there is no concern, as Audio GD receivers are self-powered, do not take power from from the USB bus, so portable devices are not overloaded.


----------



## Jandu

Chris Kaoss said:


> Never tried a dap, but Mojo.
> Just for the sake of curiosity.
> Works flawless, and ,obviously, gives a different presentation.


R28 is an R2R DAC, not many DAP uses R2R for decoding. The presentation, I think, would be quite different. I did use the R8 going thru the pre amp portion of R28, the sound signature of the R28 pre amp is very similar to the HE9 pre amp. Let us know if you find good synergy using a DAP


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Any phone or DAP with USB audio output is compatible Audio GD DAC or DDC. A reason of your concern is a load a receiver takes from the portable device. It can be to high, many people have problem with. In this case there is no concern, as Audio GD receivers are self-powered, do not take power from from the USB bus, so portable devices are not overloaded.


Yeah but he said he wants to drive it via analog-in. Seems pointless given the R28 is an AIO.


----------



## xenithon

gimmeheadroom said:


> Seems pointless given the R28 is an AIO.


Why do they include analog in then? For versatility. And high end modern DAPs often have great DAC capabilities (but lack sufficient driving capabilities for demanding headphones). 

Thus, having the option of feeding the R28 digital or analog is great - often an oversight on AIOs.  

But alas, to each their own and YMMV 🙃


----------



## sajunky (Jul 21, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yeah but he said he wants to drive it via analog-in. Seems pointless given the R28 is an AIO.


I posted it 2:00 am


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 21, 2022)

xenithon said:


> Why do they include analog in then?



So they can be driven by balanced sources like rack gear.



xenithon said:


> And high end modern DAPs often have great DAC capabilities (but lack sufficient driving capabilities for demanding headphones



If they lack drive for demanding headphones, they're also not going to be able to drive the R28 sufficiently. And the DAC in your R28 is already better than any portable device, so it's pointless to do this.


----------



## xenithon

gimmeheadroom said:


> If they lack drive for demanding headphones, they're also not going to be able to drive the R28 sufficiently


So 4.1V balanced output voltage is insufficient?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

xenithon said:


> So 4.1V balanced output voltage is insufficient?


So you measured it? And you don't mind killing your battery?


----------



## AudioAlex (Jul 21, 2022)

Jandu said:


> I did use the R8 going thru the pre amp portion of R28


What was the difference in SQ? Did you feel that R8 was a big step up compared to R1 inside R28?

I have ordered HE9 Mk2 and will try to use the DAC part of my current R28 through HE9 (using ACSS cables) until such time I get either R8HE Mk2 or R7HE Mk2..


----------



## xenithon

gimmeheadroom said:


> So you measured it? And you don't mind killing your battery?


I really am not sure why the aggression. You don't want to use it in this way? That is fine; no need to brew a storm and argue about something that is clearly a moot point for you.

As for your questions - no, I didn't measure, I leave that for ASR et al that prefer to look at graphs than listen to music. In terms of battery....using analog out to an amp (e.g., Cayin C9) uses less of the DAPs battery than running the headphone out of the DAP. So not sure what you mean by "killing your battery".


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thanks, that explains a lot.


----------



## Jandu

AudioAlex said:


> What was the difference in SQ? Did you feel that R8 was a big step up compared to R1 inside R28?
> 
> I have ordered HE9 Mk2 and will try to use the DAC part of my current R28 through HE9 (using ACSS cables) until such time I get either R8HE Mk2 or R7HE Mk2..


SQ between the R28 DAC and R8He DAC are similar, R8He has a much finer resolution and sharper rise/fall of notes/music. If you're into classical music or finer details of musical instruments, you need the R8He with a good Pre-amp to get it. The R28 is not quite on par at that level. If you just do non-hi-res Spotify, either will do. 

I find the DI20He in front of the R8He improves the SQ quite a bit, if you are interested in the R8He, you may want to budget something like the DI20He as well. If you are going to use a master clock for both the DDC and DAC, then you need the R7.


----------



## Chris Kaoss (Jul 21, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thanks, that explains a lot.


Relax, my friend. 

He just want to switch between the 2 dacs to figure out how much they differ.
Nothing wrong about that, i did the same with the Mojo (with hot 3V line out and no issues on the R28)
The change/ difference was way more prominent with headphones, instead of my active speakers (Elac Air-X).
It was a fun session that day with many new insights why the R28 is worth every penny/ cent. 

At the end, I'm curious about his impressions, thou.

It's all about the music, not to blame the R28 or the external dac.


----------



## AudioAlex

Jandu said:


> SQ between the R28 DAC and R8He DAC are similar, R8He has a much finer resolution and sharper rise/fall of notes/music.


When you say similar, do you mean tonality? I hear that R8 sounds a bit warmer than R28.. 
Tonality wise, I really like how my R28 (2021) sounds: it is neutral and transparent.. I'm looking for something more sophisticated within similar tonality.. Currently R8HE Mk2 is my favourite as it is very close to R7HE Mk2 in NOS mode, costs less and now has an external clock option..  


Jandu said:


> I find the DI20He in front of the R8He improves the SQ quite a bit, if you are interested in the R8He, you may want to budget something like the DI20He as well.


Totally agree. I have it already and use it with my R28 via I2s, parallel.


----------



## xenithon

Chris Kaoss said:


> He just want to switch between the 2 dacs to figure out how much they differ.



Indeed. The digital in via USB / coax will always be primary use case; the question arose out of curiosity of comparing the sound of different DAC sections.


----------



## AudioAlex

xenithon said:


> Has anyone here connected a DAP to the R28’s analog inputs? Any issues with it or does it work quite seamlessly?
> 
> Thinking it would be interesting to try out the R28 via analog balanced input (from DAP balanced line out) and compare to digital in to the R28 (via coax or USB).


I had a similar idea: to connect my AK SE200 to R28 via 2.5->double XLR balanced cable.. I even ordered the cable.. didn't work for me as I couldn't physically connect the cable and had to send it back.. 
Some people report background noise with 2.5 due to lack of grounding.. 4.4 should be safer in this sense, but I don't know for sure..


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Chris Kaoss said:


> Relax, my friend.
> 
> He just want to switch between the 2 dacs to figure out how much they differ.
> Nothing wrong about that, i did the same with the Mojo (with hot 3V line out and no issues on the R28)
> ...


That's all very nice. I think it's dumb, and that's the price of asking in a public forum


----------



## Chris Kaoss

AudioAlex said:


> I had a similar idea: to connect my AK SE200 to R28 via 2.5->double XLR balanced cable.. I even ordered the cable.. didn't work for me as I couldn't physically connect the cable and had to send it back..
> Some people report background noise with 2.5 due to lack of grounding.. 4.4 should be safer in this sense, but I don't know for sure..


I did that with my BTR5 once, for Bluetooth transmission, without any issues.
Again, out of curiosity and the possibility to do so. 

But usb is my preferred connection to the R28.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

gimmeheadroom said:


> That's all very nice. I think it's dumb, and that's the price of asking in a public forum


Nothing's wrong with your opinion.
It's just that, your opinion. 

Maybe a little less harsh reaction would be appreciated.


----------



## Jandu (Jul 21, 2022)

AudioAlex said:


> When you say similar, do you mean tonality? I hear that R8 sounds a bit warmer than R28..
> Tonality wise, I really like how my R28 (2021) sounds: it is neut....


If you like how the R28 sound, image the R8 sound same with a lot more details. Like a 720p tv playing the scene compare to a 4k TV playing the same scene. When I asked Kingwa about the difference between an R2R and a chip DAC. He was saying R2R is like looking at a painting vs looking at a hires photo for chip DAC. You get the content(chip DAC) but lose the mood/atmosphere(R2R). R28 get you the mood, but R8 get you the mood plus more details. Hopefully, this make sense.
You need a good quality pre-amp to get that details to your speakers, for the R8.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 22, 2022)

Chris Kaoss said:


> Nothing's wrong with your opinion.
> It's just that, your opinion.



And how is your opinion better than my opinion?



Chris Kaoss said:


> Maybe a little less harsh reaction would be appreciated.



Maybe minding your own business would be appreciated. Are you his dad or girlfriend? Or maybe you need some extra income as a site moderator?

The guy wants to be validated and I'm not part of the group hug. In my view it's better to tell somebody the truth than make him feel good. It's a dumb, pointless idea to run this device off the analog out of a DAP. It will cost a few euros to buy a bizarre 4,4mm -> dual XLR cable and then more to replace the DAP's internal battery.

He doesn't need your approval to try it and he doesn't have to listen to my disapproval. He should not have asked the question in the first place, if he wanted to do it he should just do it. There is no need for a vote on that.

So write what you want and don't expect a reply. You're both in my ignore list. Him for passive-agressive behavior when I dared to express my opinion, and you for sticking your nose in where it does not belong. Bye!


----------



## xenithon

Sigh....the forum, like any society, comprises both those that are look to help, uplift, and bring a positive energy; and those that thrive on tearing others down. Pity we have some of the latter, but it is what it is.

I'll carry on enjoying the music, which is ultimately the objective of the hobby


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Guess he head a bad day and want to read bad things. 
Someone should give some extra mental headroom.

Nonetheless, it's never dumb to test the capabilities of your own device, if you want to
. 
Have a good day.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Agree with @sajunky, especially if you have Audio-gd gear, DI-20HE is the best possible DDC. If you don't want to spend the  extra money, the DI-20 is a great value.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what we're saying.



Good afternoon. Thanks for the tips. Ordered a DI20HE. I'll get it, test it and report my impression


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> Good afternoon. Thanks for the tips. Ordered a DI20HE. I'll get it, test it and report my impression


Congratulations! We will be glad to hear your impressions, but we already know what you will say


----------



## Louisiana

Hello,
new R28 owner since today. 

Two questions:
According to Audio GD, the device should be able to DSD512, but I only have the option to select up to DSD128.

And whats about native DSD?


----------



## Igor375375

Louisiana said:


> Hello,
> new R28 owner since today.
> 
> Two questions:
> ...


DSD256 works with Audirvana, DSD512 not available, I'll find it and check.


----------



## Louisiana

Igor375375 said:


> DSD256 works with Audirvana, DSD512 not available, I'll find it and check.


Thank you.
I read up again, the R28 should support native DSD, that irritates me a bit now.

It shouldn't be my system, because I can select native DSD in Roon on my iDSD:





Unfortunately not with my R28:


----------



## Igor375375

Louisiana said:


> Thank you.
> I read up again, the R28 should support native DSD, that irritates me a bit now.
> 
> It shouldn't be my system, because I can select native DSD in Roon on my iDSD:
> ...


I use Audirvana Studio, everything works, I didn't like ROON, it took me a long time to choose between them.


----------



## Igor375375

Audirvana Studio automatically detects the ability to receive the R-28 as 32/1536. Although already when playing DSD512 the load on the CPU is very decent. And what's the point? After I switched to Qobuz, I've practically stopped listening to DSD, because quality recordings sound great in 16/44 as well, let alone HiRes.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Check the product pages for limits on pure DSD, DoP etc.

And on the main page see towards the bottom

*Foobar2000 setting guide for play PCM384 and DSD512

http://audio-gd.com/Foobar_set.zip*

You might have to install ASIO proxy to get high rate DSD to work.

I don't have the R28, but after going through the setup I could play DSD512 over DE-20/HE and R8 Mk2.


----------



## Louisiana

I did some reading and for native DSD I need an update to the Amanero USB port.
But before I can do this update, the R28 also needs a firmware update if I'm not using the latest one.

But well, the R28 is only connected to my Windows PC to have sound while playing, and occasionally listen to music through speakers, so I will not bother with the firmware update now, especially since I do not even have an appropriate cable.

@Igor375375 
I reactivated my Audirvana Studio account, I get DSD512 displayed, but on playback it is noisy.
But as written a few lines above, the device still serves its purpose for me, and for native DSD I fall back on my ifi stack.


----------



## Louisiana (Jul 29, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> You might have to install ASIO proxy to get high rate DSD to work.


Thank you.
R28 is connected to RPi4, so i don't need any drivers.
It's all about the Firmware update...

Just in case I do want to do the update, is there anyone here who has done it before and can tell me exactly what cable I need?

Maybe i ask Magna HIFI for support


Edit:

https://magnahifi.com/de/audio-gd-dsp-fpga-firmware-dac-update/

Wow, remote update, maybe this is what i need


----------



## Igor375375

Louisiana said:


> I did some reading and for native DSD I need an update to the Amanero USB port.
> But before I can do this update, the R28 also needs a firmware update if I'm not using the latest one.
> 
> But well, the R28 is only connected to my Windows PC to have sound while playing, and occasionally listen to music through speakers, so I will not bother with the firmware update now, especially since I do not even have an appropriate cable.
> ...


I have the firmware module and wire in the delivery set, but I haven't flashed it, everything works as it is. Audirvana Studio plays DSD64-DSD512 with no noise, very clear sound.


----------



## mrjayviper

can someone please explain this statement? (This is mentioned in the product page => http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN.htm)

My understanding is the changes made to the new version means the it's almost like have a DI-20 on the digital path.

Thanks!

------

"USB  transmit the IIS signal to the FPGA processor and receive the clock signal from the FPGA processor, the USB interface without on board data clocks, the signal transmit is much exact, the sound quality get the much improve , close to the last generative R-28 combine with DI-20 (But not DI-20HE) level."


----------



## sajunky (Jul 30, 2022)

mrjayviper said:


> can someone please explain this statement? (This is mentioned in the product page => http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2821/R2821EN.htm)
> 
> My understanding is the changes made to the new version means the it's almost like have a DI-20 on the digital path.
> 
> ...


In the version prior 2021, oscilators on the Amanero module were running independently to the precision oscilators located on the main board. It required synchronisation of USB data stream with a high precision clock that FPGA is driven. It means some quality losses in the process.

In the 2021version and above, oscilators on the Amanero module are removed, now using a pair of high precision oscilators located on the main board. It means that asynchonous USB transfers are fully effective (from the USB host to the ladder decoder), there is no need for PLL or any other synchronisation methods. One clock rules all.

It other words, USB transfers work exactly the same as it was introduced first time with DI-20. It is a shortest explanation. It doesn't mean that quality is the same. DI-20 has additionally a galvanic isolation on USB port, it is important feature. In high-end products R-8/R-7 such isolator is added, it makes it identical design as in DI-20. However if you use R8/R7 with DI-20, such feature is wasted, pairing R-1/R-28 with DI-20 is an economic solution.


----------



## mrjayviper

Another question please

What's the difference between NOS vs oversampling mode 0? Thanks
------
From the online manual

Left 1st display : Oversampling 
         "O" for select oversampling, "N" for select NOS mode.

Left 2nd display : OS and NOS modes
          While OS setting on "O" mean the DAC working under oversampling mode, lower number OS modes sound became warmer and smoother. Or depend on your sense .
         Mode "0" : class technology NOS mode.


----------



## Louisiana

After listening to music with the R28 for many hours yesterday, I am very excited about the device!
LCD 4, OS x8, from "I listen briefly", has then become half the night. 

The device I bought used, it is supposed to be the 2020 model - is there any way for me to find out what firmware is installed?

The previous owner bought it from Magna Hifi, where the device supposedly got a firmware update last year, but I'm just surprised that native DSD don't work, only DOP, and then only up to DSD128.

The R28 should actually be connected to my PC, and my ifi stack should only be for listening to music, but I have to think about it again, I will use these days times the R28 as a DAC, and connect my Pro iCAN.

Also, I'm thinking of buying a DI20 HE, but before that my DSD problem must be solved.


----------



## amiga505

Louisiana said:


> After listening to music with the R28 for many hours yesterday, I am very excited about the device!
> LCD 4, OS x8, from "I listen briefly", has then become half the night.
> 
> The device I bought used, it is supposed to be the 2020 model - is there any way for me to find out what firmware is installed?
> ...


are you the guy who snapped that sweet deal on eBay Kleinanzeigen a bit back?


----------



## Louisiana

amiga505 said:


> are you the guy who snapped that sweet deal on eBay Kleinanzeigen a bit back?



Yes. 
Really a sweet deal 
And I'm originally from FFM, too.


----------



## amiga505

Louisiana said:


> Yes.
> Really a sweet deal
> And I'm originally from FFM, too.


had it on my Merkliste as well, glad for you, enjoy your new gear! I have moved to Berlin by the way, need to update the profile info...


----------



## sajunky (Jul 30, 2022)

mrjayviper said:


> Another question please
> 
> What's the difference between NOS vs oversampling mode 0? Thanks
> ------
> ...


Hi,
Left 1st digit set to 'N' is a true NOS mode. It overrides setting of the 2nd digit and a filter settings (no oversampling and absence of digital filtering means NOS).
Left 2nd digit mode '0' is not oversampling as well, but depends on the firmware version, it may deploy digital filtering (according to your filter setting) - just guessing. There is no further explanation, consider this mode reserved for future use.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Louisiana said:


> Yes.
> Really a sweet deal
> And I'm originally from FFM, too.


What was the price back then?
Bought mine ‘20 from the "classifieds" here for 880€. 

Greetings from South Bavaria.
Chris


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Louisiana said:


> Thank you.
> R28 is connected to RPi4, so i don't need any drivers.
> It's all about the Firmware update...



Ok in that case my question would be what music player app do you have on the RPI4 that can play DSD512?


----------



## Louisiana

gimmeheadroom said:


> Ok in that case my question would be what music player app do you have on the RPI4 that can play DSD512?



No Music player app. 
RPi4 works as Roon/HQPlayer Bridge, with RoopieXL. 

Roon Rock -> Mac Mini M1 -> HQPlayer -> RPI4 -> R28. 

or

Roon Rock -> RPI4 -> R28. 

This works flawless with my Pro iDSD, upsampling with HQPlayer up to 512DSD, RPI4 connected over USB to ProIDSD. 

Just to be clear:
I don't need DSD512 to be happy, the R28 sounds wonderful with Red Book standard, but if the unit is sold with the option to play native DSD up to 512, It should be able to work.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Louisiana said:


> No Music player app.
> RPi4 works as Roon/HQPlayer Bridge, with RoopieXL.



Thanks,  understood, kinda.



Louisiana said:


> Just to be clear:
> I don't need DSD512 to be happy, the R28 sounds wonderful with Red Book standard, but if the unit is sold with the option to play native DSD up to 512, It should be able to work.



I believe it does work. After using the setup I linked from the Audio-gd homepage, my DI-20, DI-20HE, and R8 Mk2 could all play DSD 512.


----------



## Louisiana

I have now connected the R28 to my Windows PC - latest Amanero drivers installed.
Now I can enable native DSD in Roon, up to 512, but the playback is noisy.
If I connect the R28 via optical cable to the PC, everything is fine.
Very strange!


----------



## Louisiana

I think my device does not have the latest firmware installed.
Here are two photos, maybe someone can say something about it.

Here I am in NOS mode, and can select from 1 - 3:






OS Mode:





I can choose 2x 4x and 8x, i think this is ok.

When i turn on the Device, the display show's this:


----------



## sajunky

Louisiana said:


> Here I am in NOS mode, and can select from 1 - 3:


Feed it with a typical sample rate (not the extreme) and tell us: Do it change a sound?


----------



## Louisiana

As I have now found out, the device is from 2019, and not as stated in the sale from 2020.
The installed firmware is the V3, there you can actually still set NOS mode from 1 - 3.

Mode 1 : Simplest data process .
Mode 2 : Data fifo.
Mode 3 : Fastest data process.

The seller was absolutely trustworthy, he probably bought the device himself under wrong conditions.
Considering that I only paid 685€ and the device looks like new, I guess it's still okay.

Conclusion:
I am very excited about Audio GD, and am now seriously considering selling my ifi stack, and replacing it with an R27....


----------



## amiga505

just noticed that the 2022 version does not have SE in - bummer. Magna Hi-Fi has an option of replacing the ACSS outs with an extra pair of SE outs, which would be ideal for me (could connect 3 different amps), but no SE input basically means no turntable... anyone knows how the ACSS replacement is done by the way? by Audio-GD, or by Magna Hi-Fi themselves? Audiophonics does not seem to offer this option.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Louisiana said:


> The installed firmware is the V3, there you can actually still set NOS mode from 1 - 3.
> 
> Mode 1 : Simplest data process .
> Mode 2 : Data fifo.
> ...



That's the way it works. Once you get one piece of Kingwa's gear you understand why we love it! And then not much other gear is interesting after that 

BTW on the newer DACs the NOS mode selection still has a few settings, but according to the website, they are there for future use and NOS(0,1,2 etc.) are all identical.



amiga505 said:


> just noticed that the 2022 version does not have SE in - bummer. Magna Hi-Fi has an option of replacing the ACSS outs with an extra pair of SE outs, which would be ideal for me (could connect 3 different amps), but no SE input basically means no turntable... anyone knows how the ACSS replacement is done by the way? by Audio-GD, or by Magna Hi-Fi themselves? Audiophonics does not seem to offer this option.


I'm sure you know that running a turntable directly over RCA in is not ideal, you should use a phono preamp.

I would recommend not replacing the ACSS outputs, they're great to have when (not if, but when) you buy more Audio-gd gear.

As far as what is actually possible, ask Kingwa or Magna directly. I'm sure either the factory or Magna can do pretty much whatever you want.


----------



## amiga505

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm sure you know that running a turntable directly over RCA in is not ideal, you should use a phono preamp.


yes, of course, but phono preamps with XLR outputs are pretty uncommon in my (admittedly limited) experience, you're talking mostly SE, even for pretty decent MC stages.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

amiga505 said:


> yes, of course, but phono preamps with XLR outputs are pretty uncommon in my (admittedly limited) experience, you're talking mostly SE, even for pretty decent MC stages.


Agreed, but that's not what I meant 

I just meant in the future, you might be glad to have the ACSS analog outputs rather than some SE inputs.


----------



## amiga505

gimmeheadroom said:


> Agreed, but that's not what I meant
> 
> I just meant in the future, you might be glad to have the ACSS analog outputs rather than some SE inputs.


this point is taken  but that leaves the SE input issue. on the other hand, I suppose that means that I can keep an eye out for a stock 2019-2021 R28 as it still has both the XLR and RCA inputs and I don't need anyone to replace the ACSS outputs. although to be honest, I'd probably prefer 2 x RCA plus ACSS outputs: one SE pair to tube headamp, another to tube speaker amp, and the ACSS to Audio-GD solid state power amp potentially.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

If you're thinking of upgrading, take a hard look at the latest R27. @FredA pointed out that it has a better power supply and other upgrades from the R28.


----------



## sajunky

Adding more SE inputs/outputs to a DAC can be detrimental for SQ. Less problematic are balanced connections, where a ground wire can be lifted on one side when needed.

Kingwa decision makes sense. I want to say, we are protecting DAC from noise at a great expense, adding DDC, ect., then adding one SE device from the front or a back can ruin everything. Consider what I am saying and rather in such case look for a plain DAC and master amp set.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> If you're thinking of upgrading, take a hard look at the latest R27. @FredA pointed out that it has a better power supply and other upgrades from the R28.


Or even the r27he.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> Or even the r27he.


Well if somebody has the money to spend it looks like the R27HE is TOTL for sure!


----------



## Louisiana

Hi,
me again 

My curiosity has won and I unscrewed the R28 to see which version I have the now - to my delight the 2020 model 






Today I got a pair of Tannoy Gold 5, they sound wonderful on the R28.
All in all I can say that I got a very good deal with the R28.


----------



## xenithon

Louisiana said:


> Hi,
> me again
> 
> My curiosity has won and I unscrewed the R28 to see which version I have the now - to my delight the 2020 model
> ...



Would be most interested in how you find it versus the Pro iDSD (if you still have it)


----------



## Louisiana

xenithon said:


> Would be most interested in how you find it versus the Pro iDSD (if you still have it)


Pro iDSD is still there, and will never go 

I can't write my impressions of the devices as nicely as some others can, so I'll just try a comparison:

Pro iDSD is technically outstanding, especially with the upgrade tubes and the many filters, R28 is musically thrilling, almost like a live concert.
Since I have the R28, I only listen with him, let's see how it looks in another 2 weeks.

I am thinking of putting my ifi stack on the desk, and replace the R28 with a R27.
I have already had countless devices at home, but none has excited me as the R28.


----------



## Jandu (Aug 12, 2022)

Louisiana said:


> Pro iDSD is still there, and will never go
> 
> I can't write my impressions of the devices as nicely as some others can, so I'll just try a comparison:
> 
> ...



R2R DAC is known for non fatigue analog like long session music listening. May not be most resolving SQ, but more musical to my taste. Don't try to get a DI20he for it.


----------



## Jandu (Aug 12, 2022)

...


----------



## Chris Kaoss

It is, indeed.
Even for some Hifi professionals it's a revelation, especially with good active speakers connected. 
My Hifi dealer was more than surprised about the capabilities of the R28, that I've brought to my session at his shop.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Louisiana said:


> Pro iDSD is still there, and will never go
> 
> I can't write my impressions of the devices as nicely as some others can, so I'll just try a comparison:
> 
> ...


How is your A-GD journey going?
Are you still on the R28, or is it replaced by a 27 now?


----------



## Chris Kaoss

I've a question regarding the analog inputs.

I've bought a TT recently, which has a built in phono pre ( Thorens TD402 DD ), and now is attached to the R28 by RCA Pro-Ject cable.

Caveat is, that I've to turn the volume up to 90 for suitable listening, instead of 65 via USB or feed by the Mojo ( regulated to nearly 2V ).

Someone of you has experienced a similar behavior?
Headphone is the ZMF VO.

Tested with 3 different cables ( OEM, Oehlbach Ice Blue and Pro-Ject Connect-It RCA-E ), no difference sadly.

Next step is to lend an external phono-pre to eliminate the internal from the list. 

Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## FredA

Chris Kaoss said:


> I've a question regarding the analog inputs.
> 
> I've bought a TT recently, which has a built in phono pre ( Thorens TD402 DD ), and now is attached to the R28 by RCA Pro-Ject cable.
> 
> ...


Pretty normal. You could increase the overall gain on the r28. Phono stages have pretty low output levels in general.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Thank you.

Yeah, i know.
Was expecting at least 10 ticks more with this setup, but 25 is a bit to much. ^^

I'll try to figure out how I can get more gain, thou.
Maybe a Phono Box DS2 will do the trick.

It's going to be funny, I guess. ^^


----------



## iFi audio

Jandu said:


> R2R DAC is known for non fatigue analog like long session music listening. May not be most resolving SQ, but more musical to my taste.



Yes, there's something there. Neither R2R DAC I've heard was sharp or aggressive and so isn't our AMR DP-777SE. 



Louisiana said:


> Pro iDSD is still there, and will never go
> 
> I can't write my impressions of the devices as nicely as some others can, so I'll just try a comparison:
> 
> ...



Many thanks and enjoy the heck out of it


----------



## Louisiana

Chris Kaoss said:


> How is your A-GD journey going?
> Are you still on the R28, or is it replaced by a 27 now?



Hi,
sorry for the late reply, somehow got forgotten.
I am very satisfied!
Bought a Gustard U18, it's connected to the R28 via I2S, and that's a clear upgrade to the USB connection for me. 
In addition, so now also works native DSD up to 512.

Audio-GD builds wonderful devices. 





PS:
The protective film from the display of the U18 is now removed, it was initially still on it because I was not sure whether I keep the device.


----------



## geoffalter11

I have recently become a member of the Audio-GD R28 family.  I have a 2019 version which I just received yesterday.  It is in perfect condition and I am really loving the sound.  It is very musical, slightly warm, gentle and very well balanced.  It has a wonderful tone/timbre and will be a great unit to use as an AIO when I am wanting something a bit different from my reference system.  It is extremely quiet and sounds come at you from the darkest of backgrounds.  Thus far I have been impressed with how it synergizes with my LCD-4z and Radiante 1706.  But, the biggest surprise was how much I enjoyed my Auteur OG with the R28.  The warmth really helps to tame the upper midrange and lower treble energy of the Auteur and provides a very relaxing and balanced sound.  I am just getting to know the unit, so still much to learn.  I have found it took about an hour to fully bias and get to peak sound.  I don't have the newest version, curious from those who have heard the 2019 and 2022 versions how much difference the extra power supply makes?  

Also curious how much difference the firmware updates make to the sound quality.  Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.  Kingwa sent me 4 firmware updates that he recommended I do.  I don't have a manual, so any help in how I do the firmware updates would be helpful as well.

Thanks!


----------



## geoffalter11

Just realized that I need to use the jumpers on the inside to perform the firmware update.  Definitely going to need to figure that out.  Kingwa recommended I do the R-28 Parallel DOP1.1.  Anyone have any experience with this firmware upgrade and the effects on performance?  Is it worth it for me to figure this out?


----------



## Jandu

geoffalter11 said:


> I have recently become a member of the Audio-GD R28 family.  I have a 2019 version which I just received yesterday.  It is in perfect condition and I am really loving the sound.  It is very musical, slightly warm, gentle and very well balanced.  It has a wonderful tone/timbre ......
> 
> Thanks!


Just in case you may be able to use the info:
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN_Use.htm

enjoy


----------



## geoffalter11

Jandu said:


> Just in case you may be able to use the info:
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN_Use.htm
> 
> enjoy


Thank you.  I need to figure out how to upgrade the firmware...


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Never made an update since . . . ever. ^^
Maybe I've to look into a new firmware. 

Bought my upgraded R28 from @vica1 3 years ago and still happy with.

Will jump into firmware upgrading when I've the time to.


----------



## msing539

Hello my friend, @geoffalter11 

How does the DAC compare with the Pontus based on your memory?


----------



## geoffalter11

msing539 said:


> Hello my friend, @geoffalter11
> 
> How does the DAC compare with the Pontus based on your memory?


Hi Dave,

The DAC is close but not quite as resolving. As an AIO it is quite nice, but isn’t the same as separates. The amp is good. It is a nice mid-tier component. I wouldn’t trade what you have for it.


----------



## msing539

geoffalter11 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> The DAC is close but not quite as resolving. As an AIO it is quite nice, but isn’t the same as separates. The amp is good. It is a nice mid-tier component. I wouldn’t trade what you have for it.



Thanks, Geoff--I'm not thinking about trading for the R-28, just curious. Hope you and the family are doing well.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

It seems the R27 is a step up from the R28 in all respects


----------



## msing539

gimmeheadroom said:


> It seems the R27 is a step up from the R28 in all respects



The R-27 RE is 5% off if you speak with Kingwa.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Killer!


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> It seems the R27 is a step up from the R28 in all respects


I would assume so. R8 instead of R1 DAC and the R27 has a Master 9 in it too. Or a variation thereof.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> Killer!


Thinking of getting an R27-HE?  Looks like a great AIO.  Right up there with the Vio V590 for best AIO.  The R28 is a good AIO.  Not great, but definitely really good.  It is better than the Burson Conductor 3XP at a similar price.  Has a nice smooth sound, good power and flexibility.  I haven't used it as a pure DAC or pure amp yet.  Just an AIO as I like my comet+ and amps better.  But, I like having it for a 2nd or 3rd system.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

geoffalter11 said:


> Thinking of getting an R27-HE?  Looks like a great AIO.  Right up there with the Vio V590 for best AIO.  The R28 is a good AIO.  Not great, but definitely really good.  It is better than the Burson Conductor 3XP at a similar price.  Has a nice smooth sound, good power and flexibility.  I haven't used it as a pure DAC or pure amp yet.  Just an AIO as I like my comet+ and amps better.  But, I like having it for a 2nd or 3rd system.


No, I really dislike all in ones intensely. If I did buy one it would be something from Audio-gd though.


----------



## geoffalter11 (Oct 19, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> No, I really dislike all in ones intensely. If I did buy one it would be something from Audio-gd though.


Your awesome. I was listening to the R28 last night, something I didn’t buy, but was generously gifted by a local head-fier. A true act of altruism and generosity. He was done with it and wanted someone else to enjoy it without the hassle of selling, shipping, etc. If he ever wants it back, it is his to have. It is a nice unit. But I a/b’d it to my reference system. The Exogal Comet+ and Cembalo Lab Spring 1. The difference between them was so different I was left wondering if any AIO can compete with a properly implemented system of separates. Granted my system is 5-6 times the cost, so not exactly a fair comparison. But, something is always compromised.

The R28 is a fine unit and sounds good. It is fully balanced but has significantly less headroom than my Spring 1 which is a single ended behemoth.  I believe I have the only Spring 1 left in existence and I will never let it go.


----------



## jonathan c

gimmeheadroom said:


> No, I really dislike all in ones intensely. If I did buy one it would be something from Audio-gd though.


The AIO vs separates debate reminds me of lyrics from _Built For Comfort_ by Howlin’ Wolf: 


🤣🤣🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## gimmeheadroom

jonathan c said:


> The AIO vs separates debate reminds me of lyrics from _Built For Comfort_ by Howlin’ Wolf: 🤣🤣🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## msing539

Am I doing this right? I got the DI-20HE by the way... I know this is not the place to discuss it, but I'm very happy with it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

msing539 said:


> Am I doing this right? I got the DI-20HE by the way... I know this is not the place to discuss it, but I'm very happy with it.


It's about time! On deck, R7 MK2


----------



## geoffalter11

Is the DI-HE and improvement over the Iris?


----------



## msing539

geoffalter11 said:


> Is the DI-HE and improvement over the Iris?


In short, yes. Everything sounds slightly more natural and imaging is improved. I only wish he included a native RJ45 I2S connection.


----------



## geoffalter11

msing539 said:


> In short, yes. Everything sounds slightly more natural and imaging is improved. I only wish he included a native RJ45 I2S connection.


I find my USBe Perfect to be just as competent if not more than the Iris. Sounds like you made a good move. How’s the Pontus treating you?


----------



## msing539

geoffalter11 said:


> I find my USBe Perfect to be just as competent if not more than the Iris. Sounds like you made a good move. How’s the Pontus treating you?


It's been great, thanks. I ended up here because I was considering simplifying my setup. But I wanted at least the performance of the Pontus, so I'm guessing that would take an R27 to achieve.


----------



## geoffalter11

msing539 said:


> It's been great, thanks. I ended up here because I was considering simplifying my setup. But I wanted at least the performance of the Pontus, so I'm guessing that would take an R27 to achieve.


Perhaps the R8-HE. I don’t know. I am quite happy with my Comet+, no plans to upgrade anytime soon. The R2R I covet is the Merason DAC1.


----------



## KZCloud89

Guys I think my R28 2022 Edition just bricked yesterday.  I was just enjoying my morning coffee with ZMF Atrium and all of sudden music stop and static noise with extremely high volume playing instead.  Luckily the Atrium drivers isn't damaged and playing fine with Sony TA-ZH1ES.  So I paused the music and looked over the R28 and noticed the volume is at 100   My normal volume is 50 thru 60 depends on the headphones' sensitivity. The volume would go higher than 100 but NOT lower with just static noise.

The R28 is feed with the DI-20HE with I2S from MacBook pro with USB.

I will try to remove the DI-20HE from the chain and changing cables to isolate whether the R28 is toasted tonight.

Anyone seen this problem before I contact Kingwa for warranty service.

Thanks


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Sounds crazy. Does it have a remote, is there any chance another remote triggered the volume change?


----------



## KZCloud89

I do have just 1 remote for the R28 but never use it.  No remotes for Sony TA.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

KZCloud89 said:


> I do have just 1 remote for the R28 but never use it.  No remotes for Sony TA.


I hope you unravel the mystery!


----------



## sajunky (Oct 24, 2022)

@KZCloud89. Two things happened at the same time and both are related to the control logic chip. Try powering down (disconnecting everything), wait 30 minutes to clear static electricity and try to play again, lowering your amp volume to protect speakers.

If doesn't help and reflashing main firmware either, then you need to replace control board, sorry.


----------



## KZCloud89

sajunky said:


> @KZCloud89. Two things happened at the same time and both are related to the control logic chip. Try powering down (disconnecting everything), wait 30 minutes to clear static electricity and try to play again, lowering your amp volume to protect speakers.
> 
> If doesn't help and reflashing main firmware either, then you need to replace control board, sorry.



I disconnected everything since yesterday.  Will try again tonight ONLY if I can turn down the volume below 100 (currently stuck at 100).  Don't want to blow the headphone drivers.  Thanks sajunky.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

KZCloud89 said:


> I disconnected everything since yesterday.  Will try again tonight ONLY if I can turn down the volume below 100 (currently stuck at 100).  Don't want to blow the headphone drivers.  Thanks sajunky.



Just a thought- does the R28 have fixed-output preamp mode? Are you sure you're in the right mode?


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Just a thought- does the R28 have fixed-output preamp mode? Are you sure you're in the right mode?


There is a mode called DAC mode, but first of all it has nothing to do with headphones, and secondly, in this mode the volume control is locked and the sound is output without amplification directly from the DAC.


----------



## KZCloud89

Igor375375 said:


> There is a mode called DAC mode, but first of all it has nothing to do with headphones, and secondly, in this mode the volume control is locked and the sound is output without amplification directly from the DAC.


I have use the R28 as an AIO and as an DAC mode with the WA22 as amp.  With DAC mode I can increase/decrease volume on both the R28 and the WA22.


----------



## KZCloud89

gimmeheadroom said:


> Just a thought- does the R28 have fixed-output preamp mode? Are you sure you're in the right mode?


Yes I was in headphone amp mode when this all happened listening to the Atrium.  Music turns into static noise and volume increased sharply.  
I have also used the R28 as an DAC feeding the WA22 tube amp and everything works fine...until yesterday.

I wouldn't dare testing the R28 as an DAC to the WA22.  At that sound level will probably blow all the tubes.


----------



## Igor375375

KZCloud89 said:


> I have use the R28 as an AIO and as an DAC mode with the WA22 as amp.  With DAC mode I can increase/decrease volume on both the R28 and the WA22.


Not true, you haven't figured out the settings of your R-28, the volume in DAC mode on the R-28 is not adjustable, it's adjustable in PRE mode - preamplifier.


----------



## KZCloud89

Igor375375 said:


> Not true, you haven't figured out the settings of your R-28, the volume in DAC mode on the R-28 is not adjustable, it's adjustable in PRE mode - preamplifier.


You're correct.  I have been using the Pre mode to feed the WA22.  It was nice to be able to fine tune the volume with both the R28 and WA22.
Do you know if the DAC mode sounds better?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

KZCloud89 said:


> You're correct.  I have been using the Pre mode to feed the WA22.  It was nice to be able to fine tune the volume with both the R28 and WA22.?



The correct way to do it is to run the R28 at 0 dB output and control volume at the WA22.


----------



## KZCloud89 (Oct 25, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> The correct way to do it is to run the R28 at 0 dB output and control volume at the WA22.


DAC mode or Pre Mode?  I guess it would have to be Pre Mode at 0 volume.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

KZCloud89 said:


> DAC mode or Pre Mode?  I guess it would have to be Pre Mode at 0 volume.


When you're driving an amp, you should drive it fully. That gets the best performance out of the amp. And it is also the safest way, so you will never damage your ears or equipment.


----------



## KZCloud89

gimmeheadroom said:


> When you're driving an amp, you should drive it fully. That gets the best performance out of the amp. And it is also the safest way, so you will never damage your ears or equipment.


Got it thanks!


----------



## Igor375375 (Oct 25, 2022)

KZCloud89 said:


> You're correct.  I have been using the Pre mode to feed the WA22.  It was nice to be able to fine tune the volume with both the R28 and WA22.
> Do you know if the DAC mode sounds better?


I like the sound better in DAC mode, the PRE mode of the R-28 is worse. But I also have to use PRE mode, because in my Denon integrated amplifier the right channel started crackling in preamplifier mode, while in power amplifier mode everything is fine. ( The Denon integrated amplifier can operate in two modes).


----------



## KZCloud89

Igor375375 said:


> I like the sound better in DAC mode, the PRE mode of the R-28 is worse. But I also have to use PRE mode, because in my Denon integrated amplifier the right channel started crackling in preamplifier mode, while in power amplifier mode everything is fine. ( The Denon integrated amplifier can operate in two modes).


I will sure to use the DAC mode after the problem with R28 is sorted out.
Contacted Kingwa and now the wait begins....

Thanks Igor


----------



## Igor375375

KZCloud89 said:


> I will sure to use the DAC mode after the problem with R28 is sorted out.
> Contacted Kingwa and now the wait begins....
> 
> Thanks Igor


Good luck to you. Let me know how you get on with the repair or exchange of the R-28.


----------



## flaming_june

Hi lads wondering if anyone can advise me on something out of the blue.  I don't have the thread's amp in question but the old pheonix.  I'm wondering regarding operational temps, would it be prudent for longevity to place it on top of an audio gd dac that also generate some heat?  Please see photo.

I know it is quite wierd and out of the blue.  I've just never did this config before and paranoia is getting the better of me.





  Appreciate any help


----------



## Igor375375

flaming_june said:


> Hi lads wondering if anyone can advise me on something out of the blue.  I don't have the thread's amp in question but the old pheonix.  I'm wondering regarding operational temps, would it be prudent for longevity to place it on top of an audio gd dac that also generate some heat?  Please see photo.
> 
> I know it is quite wierd and out of the blue.  I've just never did this config before and paranoia is getting the better of me.
> 
> ...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

flaming_june said:


> Hi lads wondering if anyone can advise me on something out of the blue.  I don't have the thread's amp in question but the old pheonix.  I'm wondering regarding operational temps, would it be prudent for longevity to place it on top of an audio gd dac that also generate some heat?  Please see photo.
> 
> I know it is quite wierd and out of the blue.  I've just never did this config before and paranoia is getting the better of me.
> 
> ...



In general although amps are heavier, since heat rises, it makes some sense to place it on top of a DAC if you have no other option.

It is likely better than frying your DAC with the heat from an amp underneath it. Best case, keep the hottest components on their own shelf with plenty of airflow.


----------



## fzm00

Have the R2R -11, use it with my hd6xx. Love it


----------



## geoffalter11

So, I feel like the biggest idiot.  I have been not liking the R28 the past little bit after getting it thinking it sounded dull and lifeless.  2 nights ago I realized I had the gain switch set wrong and wasn't understanding the terminology on the screen.  Once I got the gain set right the R28 just opened up like a flower on a sunny day.  Wow, what a beautiful sounding AIO.  It is truly a wonderful product.

Dynamic, Powerful, Subtle, incredible tone, musicality and extremely detailed.  Detail is significantly greater than I was expecting.  I have an older unit.  I believe a 2019 version with only one power supply. It sounds amazing.  I can't believe how idiotic I am to not realize I had it set up wrong.  It just lit up all of my synapses.  For those who believe in the concept of "end game" and have a budget under $1500, do not hesitate to try the R28.  For me, the concept of "end game" doesn't exist, but I am super happy to have an R28 as a 2nd system.  I used to own the Burson Conductor 3XP, which is similar in cost.  The R28 blows it out of the water in my humble opinion.


----------



## jonathan c

geoffalter11 said:


> So, I feel like the biggest idiot.  I have been not liking the R28 the past little bit after getting it thinking it sounded dull and lifeless.  2 nights ago I realized I had the gain switch set wrong and wasn't understanding the terminology on the screen.  Once I got the gain set right the R28 just opened up like a flower on a sunny day.  Wow, what a beautiful sounding AIO.  It is truly a wonderful product.
> 
> Dynamic, Powerful, Subtle, incredible tone, musicality and extremely detailed.  Detail is significantly greater than I was expecting.  I have an older unit.  I believe a 2019 version with only one power supply. It sounds amazing.  I can't believe how idiotic I am to not realize I had it set up wrong.  It just lit up all of my synapses.  For those who believe in the concept of "end game" and have a budget under $1500, do not hesitate to try the R28.  For me, the concept of "end game" doesn't exist, but I am super happy to have an R28 as a 2nd system.  I used to own the Burson Conductor 3XP, which is similar in cost.  The R28 blows it out of the water in my humble opinion.


Are there ‘firmware’ updates for R28 that could ^ the performance further?


----------



## geoffalter11 (Nov 2, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Are there ‘firmware’ updates for R28 that could ^ the performance further?


Yes, but a total pain to do. You need jumpers and the instructions require a degree from MIT. I just went to Michigan St. not qualified to do a Audio-GD firmware update


----------



## gimmeheadroom

geoffalter11 said:


> Yes, but a total pain to do. You need jumpers and the instructions require a degree from MIT. I just went to Michigan St. not qualified to do a Audio-GD firmware update



Perhaps there is another audio-gd owner in your area who could help?

It's really not bad. You need a jtag debugger which is (was?) about 10 bucks on ebay if you didn't get one with your unit, and you need to install the flashing software and get the latest firmware from Kingwa's site. It takes longer to read about how to do it than to actually do it. In Windows 10, you probably need to disable "Core Isolation" and then reboot for the flashing software to be able to install and run. @DACLadder has helped many people with flashing instructions, software, etc.

I'm a firm believer in IIABDFI but I had a bug on an early R8 MK2 and I received a firmware fix from Kingwa and I had to reflash.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> Perhaps there is another audio-gd owner in your area who could help?
> 
> It's really not bad. You need a jtag debugger which is (was?) about 10 bucks on ebay if you didn't get one with your unit, and you need to install the flashing software and get the latest firmware from Kingwa's site. It takes longer to read about how to do it than to actually do it. In Windows 10, you probably need to disable "Core Isolation" and then reboot for the flashing software to be able to install and run. @DACLadder has helped many people with flashing instructions, software, etc.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in IIABDFI but I had a bug on an early R8 MK2 and I received a firmware fix from Kingwa and I had to reflash.


I have an iMac.  I got the R28 from a local.  I have all the stuff needed and I spoke with Kingwa and he sent me the firmware upgrade he recommends.  He didn't think it would make a huge difference to the sound.  Perhaps a bit with stability, but felt that it wasn't a huge deal. We'll see.  I am not super worried or planning to do the firmware update right now.  I don't use the R28 very often.  My reference system gets the majority of my time.  Plus, I have new tubes coming tomorrow that will have my full attention.  

Thanks for the advice....much obliged.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> Perhaps there is another audio-gd owner in your area who could help?
> 
> It's really not bad. You need a jtag debugger which is (was?) about 10 bucks on ebay if you didn't get one with your unit, and you need to install the flashing software and get the latest firmware from Kingwa's site. It takes longer to read about how to do it than to actually do it. In Windows 10, you probably need to disable "Core Isolation" and then reboot for the flashing software to be able to install and run. @DACLadder has helped many people with flashing instructions, software, etc.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in IIABDFI but I had a bug on an early R8 MK2 and I received a firmware fix from Kingwa and I had to reflash.


Do you still have the R8 MK2?  If so, how do you like it?  I used to own the Pontus II, but I sold it.  I always wanted an all black mint Exogal Comet+, and I couldn't pass it up when one came my way.  I absolutely love it anchoring my chain.  Especially with my Icon HP8 MK2 Signature.  The sound just disappears into my amp and headphones.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

geoffalter11 said:


> Do you still have the R8 MK2?  If so, how do you like it?  I used to own the Pontus II, but I sold it.  I always wanted an all black mint Exogal Comet+, and I couldn't pass it up when one came my way.  I absolutely love it anchoring my chain.  Especially with my Icon HP8 MK2 Signature.  The sound just disappears into my amp and headphones.



I do. It's the most musical piece of gear I own, absolutely tremendous. With other pieces of gear I often have those magic moments, but this is one piece of gear where I never hear the DAC. It's the closest thing to _being there_ that I have. I don't think the R7 HE was out when I bought this, but I'd have no hesitation spending the money now.

I'm perfectly happy with the R8 MK2. Just knowing Kingwa, and seeing the builds, I know the R7 HE is worth it.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> I do. It's the most musical piece of gear I own, absolutely tremendous. With other pieces of gear I often have those magic moments, but this is one piece of gear where I never hear the DAC. It's the closest thing to _being there_ that I have. I don't think the R7 HE was out when I bought this, but I'd have no hesitation spending the money now.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy with the R8 MK2. Just knowing Kingwa, and seeing the builds, I know the R7 HE is worth it.


Kingwa is the very definition of an Alchemist. He bucks all Chi-Fi trends of measure measure measure for greatest results and instead uses discrete parts, and is both technically and artistically innovative. I am now firmly in the Kingwa camp. The R28 is wonderful. I prefer my reference set up, but as an AIO I am quite pleased to use the R28 from time to time for a commercial break.


----------



## Louisiana

I use my R28 as DAC for my tube amp. 
Perfect match for me!


----------



## geoffalter11

Louisiana said:


> I use my R28 as DAC for my tube amp.
> Perfect match for me!


Nice set up @Louisiana


----------



## Chris Kaoss

Louisiana said:


> I use my R28 as DAC for my tube amp.
> Perfect match for me!


Wow.
Funny enough, this is exactly the setup I'm aiming for my VO, besides the Vio 550Pro.

How is the difference between these 2 amps (R28 and 3A) ?


----------



## geoffalter11 (Nov 4, 2022)

Chris Kaoss said:


> Wow.
> Funny enough, this is exactly the setup I'm aiming for my VO, besides the Vio 550Pro.
> 
> How is the difference between these 2 amps (R28 and 3A) ?


While this question isn’t for me, as I don’t have a Cayin 3a (which is flat out gorgeous, btw), I do have an SET tube amp to compare to the R28s amp. The amp of the R28 is very clean and smooth. But, I haven’t separated it from the internal DAC, which I believe is a scaled down R1. There is a definitive sense of space and there is great tone in the R28s amp. I would imagine that the R28 and 3A will make a phenomenal pairing and will give you 2 great amps. I prefer my Auteur OG on my tube amp versus the R28. But, my LCD4z and Radiante are both incredible on the R28. The R28 is definitely a SS amp possessing many of the qualities of good SS amplification. The better comparison for me is the difference between it and my Cembalo Spring 1. However; I need to pull the DAC out and run both amps off my Comet+ to properly compare as I have only used the R28 as an AIO as this point. More laziness than preference. Just haven’t wanted to take the time to move stuff around. I have the R28 sitting away from the rest of my system. I would need to swap it out with my tube amp so the interconnects can reach both amps. I only have 1 meter cables.

Not sure how helpful this post is to the question. My tube amp and the R28 don’t sound anything alike, but not in a bad way. Just different.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

geoffalter11 said:


> While this question isn’t for me, as I don’t have a Cayin 3a (which is flat out gorgeous, btw), I do have an SET tube amp to compare to the R28s amp. The amp of the R28 is very clean and smooth. But, I haven’t separated it from the internal DAC, which I believe is a scaled down R1. There is a definitive sense of space and there is great tone in the R28s amp. I would imagine that the R28 and 3A will make a phenomenal pairing and will give you 2 great amps. I prefer my Auteur OG on my tube amp versus the R28. But, my LCD4z and Radiante are both incredible on the R28. The R28 is definitely a SS amp possessing many of the qualities of good SS amplification. The better comparison for me is the difference between it and my Cembalo Spring 1. However; I need to pull the DAC out and run both amps off my Comet+ to properly compare as I have only used the R28 as an AIO as this point. More laziness than preference. Just haven’t wanted to take the time to move stuff around. I have the R28 sitting away from the rest of my system. I would need to swap it out with my tube amp so the interconnects can reach both amps. I only have 1 meter cables.
> 
> Not sure how helpful this post is to the question. My tube amp and the R28 don’t sound anything alike, but not in a bad way. Just different.


Any input is highly appreciated. 

It's widely know that the amp on the R28 is quite neutral and "transparent", so the DAC has a massive influence on the sound out of the AIO.
For someone it might sound like blasphemy, but out of curiosity, I've paired the R28 with the Mojo and the change in sound was very obvious.

So I think it would be exactly the same with a tube amp on the other end of the signal chain. 
While the amp of the R28 is no slouch with my VO, it would be interesting to hear the R2R with something like a tube amp and/ or a tad warmer SS amp like the V550Pro.

Nonetheless, thank you very much for this useful comparison.


----------



## ToddRaymond

The R-28 is an NFB-1 and R-1 combined.

The R-27 is essentially a Master 19 and R-8 combined.


----------



## Chris Kaoss

ToddRaymond said:


> The R-28 is an NFB-1 and R-1 combined.
> 
> The R-27 is essentially a Master 19 and R-8 combined.


Don't scare me with the R27 (HE/ RE), bc I'm quite weak on that front.    

Nananana, I've seen nothing on your post.


----------



## geoffalter11

ToddRaymond said:


> The R-28 is an NFB-1 and R-1 combined.
> 
> The R-27 is essentially a Master 19 and R-8 combined.


I looked up the NFB-1, which doesn't look to be balanced.  The R-1 is... The R28 is balanced and the amp has more power than the NFB-1.  I wonder how he combined them or what he really did as the specs are a bit different.  

I thought the R-27 was a Master 9 and a R-8.


----------



## sajunky

geoffalter11 said:


> I looked up the NFB-1, which doesn't look to be balanced. The R-1 is... The R28 is balanced and the amp has more power than the NFB-1.


NFB-1AMP, discountinued one year ago. Not a NFB-1 Delta-Sigma DAC combo which has the amp section equivalent to R2R-11. More.


----------



## geoffalter11

sajunky said:


> NFB-1AMP, discountinued one year ago. Not a NFB-1 Delta-Sigma DAC combo which has the amp section equivalent to R2R-11. More.


Thanks for this info.


----------



## geoffalter11

Silly question, but I can't figure out the answer with the R28.  I have only used it as a AIO.   I just plugged in my amp so I an just use the DAC/Pre portion.  How do I configure it as just a fixed DAC?  I figured out how to use it as a pre-amp/DAC, but it hasn't fixed the volume on the R28.  Is it possible to use as just a fixed DAC and if so, how?  This is a 2019 version.

Thanks,
Geoff


----------



## AudioAlex

geoffalter11 said:


> Silly question, but I can't figure out the answer with the R28.  I have only used it as a AIO.   I just plugged in my amp so I an just use the DAC/Pre portion.  How do I configure it as just a fixed DAC?  I figured out how to use it as a pre-amp/DAC, but it hasn't fixed the volume on the R28.  Is it possible to use as just a fixed DAC and if so, how?  This is a 2019 version.
> 
> Thanks,
> Geoff


There is a red button at the back.. after you've pushed it, the indication on the screen will change.. the volume level will be fixed.. (volume control won't work)


----------



## geoffalter11

Ah. Awesome. Thank you!


----------



## monster7

Hi all, I would like to ask does anyone compare this or other AGD head amp to Singxer SA-1 or Schiit products?
I have a metrum musette NOS R-2R DAC. I am considering to sell and buy this because I bought 2 headphones recently (Clear and 660s),
instead of buying a standalone head amp. Thanks.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Look at the pictures of the builds and that should be enough to make a decision after a minute or so.


----------



## monster7

gimmeheadroom said:


> Look at the pictures of the builds and that should be enough to make a decision after a minute or so.


What I can say is the transformer is better for AGD, I am not a tech guy


----------



## geoffalter11

monster7 said:


> Hi all, I would like to ask does anyone compare this or other AGD head amp to Singxer SA-1 or Schiit products?
> I have a metrum musette NOS R-2R DAC. I am considering to sell and buy this because I bought 2 headphones recently (Clear and 660s),
> instead of buying a standalone head amp. Thanks.


I used to own the Musette. It is a really good DAC. The R28 as a pure DAC is better. Plus, you get a 9.5 watt headphone amp. As an AIO for $1599 from Underwood or $1350 including shipping from Audio-Gd direct, I would venture it is without peer. 

I don’t use the amp of the R28. I don’t need it. But I do use it every day as a Pure DAC in my 2nd system and I am continually amazed at how good it sounds. Gary Alan Barker did a great review of the R1 which is the DAC inside the R28. He considers it the best DAC at that price. Underwood thinks it is the best DAC under $2k.

I can’t speak to those superlatives, but can say that I like the R28s DAC more than the Musette.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 1, 2023)

monster7 said:


> What I can say is the transformer is better for AGD, I am not a tech guy



Yes. If we read through the threads here on any device, probably the most popular addition is a better power supply. With Audio-gd gear, especially HE models, the best power supply is already designed and built-in to the device. The effect on sound quality is very significant.

Another thing is the amount of shielding between sections. Look at the aluminum plates in the mid-high end models and see how he has made efforts to reduce stray signals. Another thing is that the transformers are moved away from the R2R cards. And yet another is that the jacks and connectors are all mounted on the housing, unlike a lot of gear where the connectors are mounted on the PCB (board) and then screwed onto the housing also. This creates stress on the board and is a good way to crack a board over time. And if a connector has to be replaced, you could have an expensive annoying repair. Jacks mounted on the case are better in every way for audio gear.

Pic of the R8 Mk2 from the audio-gd site:

http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R8mk2/R8MK210.jpg


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yes. If we read through the threads here on any device, probably the most popular addition is a better power supply. With Audio-gd gear, especially HE models, the best power supply is already designed and built-in to the device. The effect on sound quality is very significant.
> 
> Another thing is the amount of shielding between sections. Look at the aluminum plates in the mid-high end models and see how he has made efforts to reduce stray signals. Another thing is that the transformers are moved away from the R2R cards. And yet another is that the jacks and connectors are all mounted on the housing, unlike a lot of gear where the connectors are mounted on the PCB (board) and then screwed onto the housing also. This creates stress on the board and is a good way to crack a board over time. And if a connector has to be replaced, you could have an expensive annoying repair. Jacks mounted on the case are better in every way for audio gear.
> 
> ...


This is an amazing post.  Speaks a lot about what takes gear from good to great.  Not just with Audio-Gd, but in general.  Audio-Gd does all of these things you speak about.  I don't think about this stuff very often, I don't look at a piece of gear with an engineering mind.  What I love most is that you make no claim to why these things lead to better measurements.  Only that they lead to better built, and ultimately better sound through intelligence and superior parts.  Kingwa makes amazing stuff.  I think my next DAC will be an R7HE.  I have pretty much decided that I need that DAC on my desk... Or maybe the R8HE now that it is available. I love my Comet+, but this year will bring a new DAC to my main system.  The R28 will stay as my main DAC in my secondary system.  Unless I keep the Comet+, and then I will have to make some other decisions.

I read your signature.  I couldn't agree more with all of it!  Thank you for writing this.  It is extremely intelligent and oh so true!


----------



## sajunky

monster7 said:


> Hi all, I would like to ask does anyone compare this or other AGD head amp to Singxer SA-1 or Schiit products?
> I have a metrum musette NOS R-2R DAC. I am considering to sell and buy this because I bought 2 headphones recently (Clear and 660s),
> instead of buying a standalone head amp. Thanks.


The amp section is equivalent to NFB-1AMP, you can find reviews for this amp, had been discontinued one year ago. Great pairing with HD 660s.

DAC section is based on R-1 as mentioned above. Together it makes a great combo.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> Look at the pictures of the builds and that should be enough to make a decision after a minute or so.


Do you have an opinion on the R8HE vs the R7HE?  I am thinking of replacing my Exogal Comet+ with an Audio-GD DAC.  Kingwa recommends either the R8HE or the R7HE.  Not sure which to look at more seriously.  I like the price of the R8HE, but want to make sure what I get is actually a step. up from my Comet+, which is a very capable DAC and has served my system admirably for about a year.  

However, a new DAC is one of my goals for this year.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

geoffalter11 said:


> Do you have an opinion on the R8HE vs the R7HE?  I am thinking of replacing my Exogal Comet+ with an Audio-GD DAC.  Kingwa recommends either the R8HE or the R7HE.  Not sure which to look at more seriously.  I like the price of the R8HE, but want to make sure what I get is actually a step. up from my Comet+, which is a very capable DAC and has served my system admirably for about a year.
> 
> However, a new DAC is one of my goals for this year.


I just answered your other post in the R7 R8 etc. thread.

I have the R8 Mk2, when I bought mine the HE version was yet a twinkle in Kingwa's eye. It's superb, it disappears completely.

I have not heard the Comet+ but I think you will be stunned at even the R8 MK2, much less the HE or R-7HE versions.

Basically, you cannot lose or go wrong with these DACs, it just depends on your budget and the amount of room you have available for the gear.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> I just answered your other post in the R7 R8 etc. thread.
> 
> I have the R8 Mk2, when I bought mine the HE version was yet a twinkle in Kingwa's eye. It's superb, it disappears completely.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  I responded to your other post.  I appreciate the response.  I am leaning towards the R8HE.  The size of the R7HE is a bit much, even though I know it is his best DAC.  Kingwa states that the the R8HE is #2 in his line-up.  At $2300 that is a pretty great deal for a DAC of that quality.


----------



## geoffalter11

gimmeheadroom said:


> I just answered your other post in the R7 R8 etc. thread.
> 
> I have the R8 Mk2, when I bought mine the HE version was yet a twinkle in Kingwa's eye. It's superb, it disappears completely.
> 
> ...


My Comet+ has a similar quality.  It is effortless and just disappears.  It is an extremely capable DAC.  I am definitely not lacking, but ready to try a different DAC.  I like R2R DACs, but the best one I have owned was the Pontus II.  It was great, but had some flexibility issues that bugged me.  I'd prefer a DAC where I can plug in both the RCA and XLR at the same time even if not using both outputs simultaneously.  Denafrips doesn't design their DACs this way.  Only one at a time or the signal gets compromised.  Plus, it lacked a certain level of top end resolution that the best DACs have.  The Comet has it, and I am quite sure the R8HE and R7HE do as well. I am also ogling the Merason DAC1.  Another R2R DAC from Switzerland that looks amazing.


----------



## sajunky

geoffalter11 said:


> My Comet+ has a similar quality. It is effortless and just disappears. It is an extremely capable DAC. I am definitely not lacking, but ready to try a different DAC. I like R2R DACs, but the best one I have owned was the Pontus II.


How do you compare sound of Comet+ and Pontus? It would help to determine whether Audio GD will fit your sound preferences.


----------



## geoffalter11

sajunky said:


> How do you compare sound of Comet+ and Pontus? It would help to determine whether Audio GD will fit your sound preferences.


Pontus is weighty and physical with a bit of warmth. I found the Pontus to be a very analog sounding DAC. But, I knew there was a DAC in the mix. I loved the Pontus, but wanted a bit more detail and for things to flow a bit more effortlessly. It wasn’t that the Pontus wasn’t great, it was more that I wanted more of what it was doing effortlessly.

The Comet+ is just effortless. Great resolution, slightly warm, just slightly and it is almost like it isn’t there. It is an extremely easy DAC to listen to and use. The preamp function is fantastic and it is extremely flexible. It mixes form and function with sound as good as any DAC I’ve personally heard. It is a lovely USB DAC. They are also out of business and I’d like to own something that has support if ever needed.

I love R2R DACs. I think they sound great. I love the R1 DAC inside my R28. I think the R28s DAC is closer to the Pontus than the Comet+. Just want a better version. An R2R that can combine the qualities of a higher end DAC. The Pontus and R28 are just missing top end resolution that I’d like in a R8HE or R7HE. Otherwise I wouldn’t change much about how the R28 or Pontus sounds. The Pontus also could only be used with one analog output at a time. If you plugged in both even if only one was being used the signal had some loss or compromise. I hated having to turn everything off and switch interconnects every time I wanted to switch amps.

Hope this makes sense. I don’t necessarily need a new DAC. I love how my system sounds with what I have. I genuinely believe the R7HE will give me an extremely dark background which will allow my music to have greater image specificity and there is a musicality to great R2Rs that is hard to recreate with an FPGA type DAC in the Comet+. What I don’t know is if the R8HE will be an upgrade or a lateral move and the same with the R7HE. The Comet+ is an extremely musical DAC in its own right.)((;;

I do recognize that with DACs the changes as you move up the ladder are more subtle. It won’t be a 20% change in sound quality. I am not expecting that.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 4, 2023)

geoffalter11 said:


> I love R2R DACs. I think they sound great. I love the R1 DAC inside my R28. I think the R28s DAC is closer to the Pontus than the Comet+. Just want a better version. An R2R that can combine the qualities of a higher end DAC. The Pontus and R28 are just missing top end resolution that I’d like in a R8HE or R7HE.


I missed a fact that you already own R-28. In this case you know already a sound and accept it, it is a key issue. Upgrading to R--8HE is important, no question about. Sound can be further improved if linked to the DI-20HE. Next step would be adding 10MHz external clock, so there is open path for tuning the entire system. A DAC standalone only sounds so, so.


----------



## geoffalter11

sajunky said:


> I missed a fact that you already own R-28. In this case you know already a sound and accept it, it is a key issue. Upgrading to R--8HE is important, no question about. Sound can be further improved if linked to the DI-20HE. Next step would be adding 10MHz external clock, so there is open path for tuning the entire system. A DAC standalone only sounds so, so.


I have a great Core Technologies USBe Perfect that I use between my source and my DAC. When I had the Pontus, I paired it with the Iris so so could use it I2S. Which was supposed to be the best way to hear the Pontus. Then Denafrips upgraded their USB thru firmware. The USBe was better than the Iris.

Kingwa also said the DI-20HE would further enhance but the USB with my USBe will work just as well. To get the DAC and then add the DI-20HE.

Thank you for your comments and help. Are you recommending the 8HE?


----------



## Jandu

geoffalter11 said:


> Pontus is weighty and physical with a bit of warmth. I found the Pontus to be a very analog sounding DAC. But, I knew there was a DAC in the mix. I loved the Pontus, but wanted a bit more detail and for th......



I owned R28 (1st gen), later when R8HE came out, I got one of the first production units. Compared to the R28, R8He is way higher in resolution and the extension of sound at both ends of freq range and it also can reveal other weakness of the system. It does maintain a similar R2R sound signature.

After a number of other upgrades, going back to R28 as a DAC will actually gives you a very good sound scape.  However, plugging in the R8 will give you way more details like going from 480p to 4K OLED in video. 

I can't quantity the improvements of sound, however, on the basis of dollar spent with perceived improvements, I ranked it as one of the best, only 2nd to the DI20He addition.


----------



## geoffalter11

Jandu said:


> I owned R28 (1st gen), later when R8HE came out, I got one of the first production units. Compared to the R28, R8He is way higher in resolution and the extension of sound at both ends of freq range and it also can reveal other weakness of the system. It does maintain a similar R2R sound signature.
> 
> After a number of other upgrades, going back to R28 as a DAC will actually gives you a very good sound scape.  However, plugging in the R8 will give you way more details like going from 480p to 4K OLED in video.
> 
> I can't quantity the improvements of sound, however, on the basis of dollar spent with perceived improvements, I ranked it as one of the best, only 2nd to the DI20He addition.


I have no doubt the R8HE is exactly as you say versus the R28. But, that isn’t the DAC I am changing out. My main DAC is an Exogal Comet+ which is significantly better than the R28. I will have to decide which DAC I think is the right one to replace the Comet+. I am pretty set it will be the R7HE or R8HE. Thank you for the impressions….


----------



## aravaioli

Got yesterday a R28 2022.
First listen quite underwhelming, perhaps R2R is not for me as the notes definition is not what I like, and I am coming from a V200 which is not the last word in analytical sound delivery.
I have not played around with sound modes yet and I'd go through the pain of opening the thing and look for jumpers.
*Is my understanding of the scant manual correct in interpreting that to go NOS all is need is to push down Jumper S1?*
If still unsatisfactory, is there anyone who indeed witnessed a remarkable improvement with burn-in?
Early to draw conclusions but after first listen I have started to think I should have gone the Burson Soloist 3X way...


----------



## sajunky (Tuesday at 5:13 AM)

aravaioli said:


> If still unsatisfactory, is there anyone who indeed witnessed a remarkable improvement with burn-in?


Yes, DAC needs it, amp too, but not so long and results are less remarkable. Do you comment on a DAC or amp section? If later, did you try external analogue source?


----------



## aravaioli

sajunky said:


> Yes, DAC needs it, amp too, but not so long and results are less remarkable. Do you comment on a DAC or amp section? If later, did you try external analogue source?


Thanks.

No, for the time being I only tried the stock configuration with USB input. Further experimentation coming soon. As external DAC I have an SMSL SU-9 which I am keeping and should provide some welcome diversity from R2R.


----------



## sajunky

aravaioli said:


> Thanks.
> 
> No, for the time being I only tried the stock configuration with USB input. Further experimentation coming soon. As external DAC I have an SMSL SU-9 which I am keeping and should provide some welcome diversity from R2R.


Good idea. What is your source? Consider adding protection from ground loops noise, iFi Defender does a good job. Don't go with more expensive devices on the start. Instead get a quality S/PDIF source. It sounds better than USB, then it is a clear indication that a work must be done on the USB port.


----------



## Jandu (Tuesday at 8:11 AM)

aravaioli said:


> Got yesterday a R28 2022.
> First listen quite underwhelming, perhaps R2R is not for me as the notes definition is not what I like, and I am coming from a V200 which is not the last word in analytical sound delivery.
> I have not played around with sound modes yet and I'd go through the pain of opening the thing and look for jumpers......



If this is a 2022 version, no need to open the box. All changes can be made without opening the box. Just change the mode to the following:
 Mode "0" :  NOS mode.
         Mode "2" : 2X oversampling.
         Mode "4" : 4X oversampling .
         Mode "8" : 8X oversampling.

Just let the DAC burn in, playing sound, for 500 hours, before you can really tell the quality of the sound from the unit.

R28, an R2R dac, is not known for very high definition, however, it does have more definition than most systems would resolve. R2R, is better known for non-fatigue, analogue sound, which is suitable for long listening sessions. 

Give it some burn in time and if it is still not the sound you like, maybe try changing out other components, not necessary to better components, of the system and by that time it should be able to reveal the weakest point of the system.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

aravaioli said:


> If still unsatisfactory, is there anyone who indeed witnessed a remarkable improvement with burn-in?



Yes, to the point that giant changes during break-in are a trademark of Audio-gd on this forum 

If you are using USB input, make sure you are using the ASIO drivers and that your music apps exploit them, so that you get bit perfect audio

This way you can be sure Windows is not affecting the sound negatively.


----------



## aravaioli

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yes, to the point that giant changes during break-in are a trademark of Audio-gd on this forum ￼
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jandu said:


> If this is a 2022 version, no need to open the box. All changes can be made without opening the box. Just change the mode to the following:
> Mode "0" :  NOS mode.
> Mode "2" : 2X oversampling.
> Mode "4" : 4X oversampling .
> ...


Thank you so much!
It turns out I was reading the manual of an older version, hence the instruction to activate pins inside the box. Glad I won't have to go through that...

And, yes, I was aware that R2R are not praised for being the last word in definition: in fact, I was looking for diversity and I got it. I have never found much difference between AKM and ESS based DACs and failed multiple (if not all) blind tests. Heck, even a Burr Brown in the iFi Neo sounded like the others to me..


----------



## aravaioli (Tuesday at 11:13 AM)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yes, to the point that giant changes during break-in are a trademark of Audio-gd on this forum
> 
> If you are using USB input, make sure you are using the ASIO drivers and that your music apps exploit them, so that you get bit perfect audio
> 
> This way you can be sure Windows is not affecting the sound negatively.


Thanks.
I use Android devices as source and never thought about checking for ASIO drivers: I'll do and I suspect USBaudiopro does use it as it is intended to overcome some Android limitations with USB ports. 

I am also considering to get a BT receiver with optical out and LDAC codec such as the 1Mii B06HD+
You can probably tell that I am not much of a purist, just realistic in regard to the capabilities of my ears...
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## gimmeheadroom

aravaioli said:


> Thanks.
> I use Android devices as source and never thought about checking for ASIO drivers: I'll do and I suspect USBaudiopro does use it as it is intended to overcome some Android limitations with USB ports.
> 
> I am also considering to get a BT receiver with optical out and LDAC codec such as the 1Mii B06HD+
> ...



Android can be very good but yes, you might need one of the special apps which give you bitperfect and other hifi features to get the most out of it.

Remember, BT is generally not considered hifi. 

Anyway, the R2R DACs from Kingwa are extremely detailed and you don't miss anything. But, they present it in a very musical way and so they don't sound analytical (sterile) you don't have to feel you compromised anything over the top chipdacs. I have an Oppo 205 and the sound is absolutely perfect and not harsh at all. But, it's so clean that I still remember I'm listening to music played from a great rig. When I play over my R8, I hear only the music, I don't hear the gear at all. I can't give higher praise than that.


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