# E-MU 0204 USB: Damn, They've Done it Again! And for $129!!!



## hddoc

Just when I was starting to consider the Grace m903...
   
   
   

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 [size=11pt]USB 2.0 Audio Interface[/size]  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




E-MU's new 0204 USB Audio Interface is the ultimate portable 2-in/4-out USB audio interface for PC and Mac, offering pristine 24-bit/192kHz recording and playback, direct monitoring and a host of professional features in a compact, USB bus-powered package. The 0204 USB sets a new standard in portable USB audio, providing users with two Class-A preamps that can be run independently or in stereo to amplify guitars, keyboards or microphones, with individual ground lift switches for optimal audio performance.
 [size=11pt]The E-MU 0204 USB 2.0 features:[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] *Premium 24-bit/192kHz A/D and D/A converters** (A/D: 113dB SNR, D/A: 113dB SNR) delivering you a pristine recording/capture and playback experience[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Ultra-low noise Mic/Hi-Z/Line preamplifiers* with ground lift switches enable you to record microphones, keyboards or guitars directly into your computer delivering professional results (XLR, 1/4” TRS, and 1/8” 5V condenser mic input)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Ultra-low latency USB drivers* offer accurate timing and playback of your recorded audio and expressive control of your software instruments[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Independent headphone DAC path* to enable separate playback and cueing for DJ applications[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Hardware zero-latency direct monitoring*(mono/stereo) allows you to record and overdub with no timing delays[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Plug-and-play operation with hands-on control of all major functions* like direct monitoring level, headphone level, and preamplifier gain to streamline your creative process[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] *Driver compatibility with most popular audio/sequencer applications* letting you work with your choice of tools - (Windows XP (SP3 or greater), Vista/x64, Windows 7/x64:ASIO2 and WDM; Macintosh OS X (10.5 or greater): Apple CoreAudio)[/size]
 
 [size=11pt]I/O Configuration:[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] Class-A Ultra-low Noise Mic/Hi-Z/Line Preamp XLR, 1/4" TRS and 1/8"* Inputs (113dB SNR)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Class-A Hi-Z/Line Preamp 1/4" Input (113dB SNR / 0.0008% THD)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Two 1/4" Outputs (117dB SNR / 0.0008% THD)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 1/8" Stereo Speaker Output (117dB SNR)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt]  Stereo Headphone Output which doubles as an assignable pair of auxiliary outputs (117dB SNR / 0.0008% THD)
   
   





 [size=11pt]Technical Specifications[/size]

 [size=10pt]General[/size]

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[/size][size=9pt] Sample Rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz from internal crystal (no sample rate conversion)*[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Bit Depth: 24-bit I/O, 32-bit processing[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] USB Hi-Speed[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] - Full 24-bit resolution at all sample rates[/size][size=9pt]



[/size][size=9pt] - Stereo in, stereo out at all sample rates[/size]
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[/size][size=9pt] Zero-latency direct hardware monitoring (disabled at 176.4-192kHz)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Windows drivers: ASIO2 and WDM[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Macintosh driver: Apple CoreAudio[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Anti-Pop speaker protection minimizes noise during power on/off[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Ultra-low jitter clock subsystem: < 100ps RMS[/size]
 
 [size=10pt]Combo Preamplifiers (2)[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] - (1) Ultra-low noise combo preamplifier with Mic/Hi-Z/line inputs[/size][size=9pt]



[/size][size=9pt] - (1) Combo preamplifier with Hi-Z/line balanced input[/size][size=9pt]



[/size][size=9pt] - (1) 1/8" condenser mic input with 5V power[/size]
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[/size][size=9pt] A/D converter: AK5385[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Max Level: +6.5dBV bal/unbal (+8.7 dBu)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Frequency Response (min gain, 20Hz-20kHz): +0.0/-0.07dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Dynamic Range (A-weighted, 1kHz, min gain): 113dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted, min gain): 113dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] THD+N (1kHz at - 1dBFS, min gain): -101.9dB (.0008%)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Ultra-low noise preamplifier (Mic/Hi-Z/line inputs)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] - Input Impedance: 1.5Kohm[/size][size=9pt]



[/size][size=9pt] - EIN (20Hz-20kHz, 150ohm, unweighted): -127dBu[/size]
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[/size][size=9pt] Combo preamplifier with Hi-Z/line balanced input[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] - Input Impedance: 1Mohm[/size]
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 [size=10pt]Analog Line Outputs (2)[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] Type: Balanced, AC-coupled, 2-pole low-pass differential filter[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] D/A converter: AK4396[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Max Level: 6.7 dBV (unbalanced)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): 0.00/-0.01dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted): 117dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): 117dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS): -101.9dB (.0008%)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): <-111dB[/size]
 
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[/size][size=9pt] Type: Class-A power amplifier[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] D/A converter: AK4396[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Gain Range: 60dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Maximum Output Power: 16mW[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Output impedance: 22ohms[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Frequency Response (20Hz-20kHz): +0.02/-0.08dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Dynamic Range (A-weighted): 117dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): 117dB[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] THD+N (1kHz, max gain): 300ohm load: -101.9dB (.0008%)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS, 300 ohm load): <-111dB[/size]
 
 [size=10pt]Synchronization[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] Internal crystal sync at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz*[/size]
 







 [size=11pt]Retail Box Contents[/size]


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[/size][size=9pt] E-MU 0204 AudioPod[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] USB cable (2 meters)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Quick Start installation guide[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] E-MU Software/Manual CD-ROM (Windows/Macintosh)
 - Windows XP, Vista, Vista x64 and Windows 7 Drivers
 - Macintosh OS X 10.5
 - Owner's Manual and Tutorials[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Acoustica Mixcraft LE CD and registration card (Windows only)[/size]
 






 [size=11pt]Minimum System Requirements[/size] 

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 Windows:
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[/size][size=9pt] Intel or AMD processor - 1.2 GHz or faster[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Intel, AMD or 100% compatible motherboard & chipset[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Windows XP (SP3 or greater), Vista/x64, Windows 7/x64 Drivers[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 1 available (Hi-speed) USB 2.0 port[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 1GB System RAM[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 950MB of free hard disk space for full installation[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] CD-ROM/CD-RW or DVD-ROM drive required for software installation[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] XVGA Video (1024 X 768)[/size][size=9pt] 
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[/size][size=9pt] Apple Macintosh 1.2 GHz Intel-based processor[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] Apple Macintosh OS X (10.5 or greater)[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 1 available (Hi-speed) USB 2.0 port[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 1GB System RAM[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] 500MB of free hard disk space for full installation[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] CD-ROM/CD-RW or DVD-ROM drive required for software installation[/size][size=9pt]



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[/size][size=9pt] XVGA Video (1024 X 768)[/size]
 
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 * When connecting the 0204 USB to a USB 1.1 port on a Windows PC, performance will be limited to 16-bit and 44.1/48kHz recording and playback. Macintosh support limited to USB 2.0 ports only.[/size]
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  E-MU 0204 USB — HIGH-RESOLUTION USB POWERED AUDIO INTERFACE
  What is the 0204 USB?
  The E-MU 0204 USB is the ultimate portable USB audio interface for the Mac and PC, offering pristine 24-bit/192kHz recording and playback, direct monitoring, and a host of professional features in a compact, USB bus-powered package.
  E-MU 0204 USB features two XTCTM Class-A, ultra-low noise Mic/Line/Hi-Z pream- plifiers that can be run independently or in stereo to record guitars, basses, keyboards or microphones with optimal audio performance.
  Target Market
  Any musician requiring a 2-in/4-out, 24/192kHz USB audio interface (Mac or PC) with superior specifications and features at an incredibly low price.
  Target Customers: Computer Audio Enthusiasts and Audiophiles
   
  E-MU USB products have become highly regarded in the music listening community for their accurate and uncolored audio reproduction. We went a little crazy on this product and used premium-quality, digital-to-analog converters normally reserved for thousand dollar systems. Then we went even further and completely redesigned the signal path to wring every last bit of performance from the A-D and D-A converters. The results are simply stunning. The sound and speci- fications of this little interface literally “blows the doors off” many audiophile interfaces and headphone preamps costing many times more.
   
  Key Features/Key Benefits Bus-powered World-class Sound
  Pristine 24-bit/192kHz recording, playback and audio specifications unmatched by any other interface in its price range. Your music will be accurately converted and preserved in the digital domain with professional standards.
   
   
  Description:
  Product Description: Number of Outputs:
  Number of Inputs:
  Microphone Preamps: Instrument Input:
  Direct Monitoring: Converters: Sample Rates:
  Drivers: THD+N (input to output): Signal to Noise Ratio: Jitter:
  Portable USB bus-powered interface for Mac and PC with 2 mic preamps
  Two 1/4" unbalanced outputs (1/2) Stereo headphone output doubles as an assignable pair of auxiliary outputs (3/4)
  (1) Balanced XLR — 1/4" TRS combo jack (1) Balanced 1/4" TRS jack (1) Unbalanced 1/8" mic input with +5V power
  (in parallel with XLR mic input)
  Two XTCTM Class-A, ultra-low noise, mic/line/hi-z preamps with up to 60dB of gain
  The center of the XLR jack functions as a Hi-Z input for use with guitars, basses, keyboards, etc. The 1/4” input also accepts a Hi-Z microphone with a 1/4” plug
  Hardware zero-latency direct monitoring (mono or stereo) with continuously variable level control
  24-bit/192kHz A/D (AK5385) and D/A converters (AK4396), 117dB measured SNR performance (DAC)
  44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz from internal crystal with no sample rate conversion
  ASIO2, WDM MME, Apple Core Audio -101.9dB (.0008%) 1kHz at -1dBFS
  117dB, A-weighted (DAC) <100ps RMS
   
   
  Retail Street Price:
  US = $129.99 UK = £129.99 (including new 20% VAT from Jan. 1, 2010) Euro = €129.99 (including 20% VAT)


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## Deep Funk

Very interesting indeed, I have my doubts about the Preamp though...


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## LFF

Wow...sounds like a real bargain! Can't wait to give it a try.
   
  FWIW, I love the 0404USB!


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## Deep Funk

Can the preamp handle 600 ohms and 8 ohms headphones? 8 ohms as in vintage full size headphones, power hungry things.


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## jaycalgary

Would this be better than the Musiland 02?


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## Yoga Flame

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> [size=10pt]Analog Line Outputs (2)[/size]
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  Hmm.. is this saying what I think it's saying?


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## infinitesymphony

Looks like an 0202 USB with the 0404 USB's ADC and DAC chips.
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yoga flame said:


> Quote:
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> > [size=10pt]Analog Line Outputs (2)[/size]
> ...


 

 What do you think it's saying?


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## Yoga Flame

I was thinking this could be an inexpensive balanced DAC.


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## thuantran

Obviously it is, click on the first pic and you can see the back of the unit. I think it has two TRS jacks for left and right channels.


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## EddieE

Hm you can no longer see the back now.
   
  So what do we know about the AK4396, how would it rank with WM8740 and WM8741?


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## EddieE

From google image:
   

   
  No RCA output at all?


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## padam

You onls need a 1/4 jack RCA adapter to use it.


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## EddieE

Padam,
  So you're saying putting a couple of these in the balanced outs and using the balanced out single ended?


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## padam

Yes but the output is not balanced, it is unbalanced. The 0404 has balanced outputs.


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## thuantran

From what I read 0204 does have balance output with TRS female socket, for example you can use this device with your monitor with these cables http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-HOS-STX1M-LIST


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## padam

True, I was mistaken, sorry.


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## EddieE

No worries, so going back to my initial point, there is no harm in using balanced outputs to a SE amp?


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## padam

Yes, no harm at all.


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## Cankin

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deep funk said:


> Can the preamp handle 600 ohms and 8 ohms headphones? 8 ohms as in vintage full size headphones, power hungry things.


 

 That is a mic preamp
  
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yoga flame said:


> I was thinking this could be an inexpensive balanced DAC.


 

 As with 0202 and 0404, these are all balanced DAC
    
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eddiee said:


> From google image:
> 
> 
> 
> No RCA output at all?


 

 Use TS to RCA adapter, DO NOT USE TRS
   
  http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042906&p_id=7149&seq=1&format=2
   
  Quote: 





thuantran said:


> From what I read 0204 does have balance output with TRS female socket, for example you can use this device with your monitor with these cables http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-HOS-STX1M-LIST


 
   
  See above


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## thuantran

Thank you, I know that. As my current DAC is unbalanced, I'm using RCA from my DAC to TS plug into my monitors.


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## infinitesymphony

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yoga flame said:


> I was thinking this could be an inexpensive balanced DAC.


 

 Not sure this can operate as a standalone DAC like the 0404 USB can, but the same could be said for the 0404 USB -- it's a ridiculously good value. For the last 2.5 years or so I've been using the balanced outputs of my 0404 USB through some self-made TRS to XLR cables to some active studio monitors and I haven't felt the urge to upgrade yet.


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## HeatFan12

This sounds like a great deal.  If it's the same as the 0404USB---
   
   
   
  For balanced on the 0404 I use these:
   
   
   
   
   
   

   
   
   
   
   
   
  For unbalanced these:
   

   
   
  Like other posters have stated-  Balanced is TRS, unbalaced is TS.


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## EddieE

@ Infinitesymphony
   
  Can these E-MU devices not send out a line out signal? Does it always have to be amped signal even from the outputs?


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## infinitesymphony

The signal is not amplified, but along those lines, yes, the analog output must always pass through the Main Output volume pot which acts as a signal attenuator. Turning the volume knob all the way up yields +0 dB (no attenuation).
   
  Note that I'm speaking only of the 0404 USB. It is the only one of E-MU's interfaces with this volume knob. The other devices including the 0204 have regular line outputs but appear to require a computer in order to function.


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## endless402

ppl have to keep in mind that specs are different from sound quality
Good bargain in terms of specs but nowhere in the same league as grace


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## EddieE

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infinitesymphony said:


> The signal is not amplified, but along those lines, yes, the analog output must always pass through the Main Output volume pot which acts as a signal attenuator. Turning the volume knob all the way up yields +0 dB (no attenuation).
> 
> Note that I'm speaking only of the 0404 USB. It is the only one of E-MU's interfaces with this volume knob. The other devices including the 0204 have regular line outputs but appear to require a computer in order to function.


 
   
  Ah I see, so you just have to make sure the volume is maxed and it is essentially lineout? That would be no big deal for me. I if I got on of these it would be to have as a dac to another headphone amp.
  
   
   
  Quote: 





> *Endless 402*
> 
> ppl have to keep in mind that specs are different from sound quality
> 
> Good bargain in terms of specs but nowhere in the same league as grace


 
   
  So you've heard both? What are your impressions of the two, how do they compare?


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## infinitesymphony

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> Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Ah I see, so you just have to make sure the volume is maxed and it is essentially lineout? That would be no big deal for me. I if I got on of these it would be to have as a dac to another headphone amp.


 

  Yes, that's correct. (Though if you are using a computer as your source, you might opt for the 0204 instead.)
   
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> > *Endless 402*
> >
> > ppl have to keep in mind that specs are different from sound quality
> >
> ...


 

  I think he just meant that it's silly to compare a $129 device with a $1,795 device. One look inside E-MU's equipment shows that the parts are not exotic or boutique. However, for the price, they are tough to beat.


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## EddieE

In terms of a headphone amplifier/pre amp I wouldn't bother comparing, but if I am looking for a DAC alone from this, are the AK4396 considered poor DAC chips?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





eddiee said:


> In terms of a headphone amplifier/pre amp I wouldn't bother comparing, but if I am looking for a DAC alone from this, are the AK4396 considered poor DAC chips?


 

 AKM AK4396 is one of AKM's flagship chips. It's not the bottleneck in this equipment. My comment about exotic/boutique components refers to the overall complexity of the design, quality and rating of capacitors, the use of op-amps versus discrete circuitry, the quality of those op-amps, etc. Is it worth 14 times the price to gain improvements in those areas? Only your wallet can decide.
   
  Basically, the DAC chip used is an important factor in terms of the resulting sound quality, but it is nowhere near the only factor.


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## EddieE

I get you, thanks for the advice. Ultimately I don't have a large budget and my current DAC - FiiO E7 - is the weakest link and I do feel the need to replace it soon. Obviously this is not high end equipment, but within my current budget it looks like it could be a decent upgrade anyway.


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## 3X0

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eddiee said:


> So what do we know about the AK4396, how would it rank with WM8740 and WM8741?


 
   
  They sound the same.
   
   
  This is awesome. Professional-targeted products are always outstanding for the money. I have no doubts that the 0204 is in the same league as the Grace.


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## endless402

nope havent heard this one
  i have listened to grace though
   
  i dont think grace is worth 1800 but closer to 1k. it's only slightly better than a benchmark (though it's more of a personal sound preference). i expect excellent asynch usb at 1500-2500 price range and an excellent output stage.
   
   
  again i remind ppl that specs and dac chip are only some parts of a dac. output stage is also important. you can use older dac chips and still have a better sounding dac than someone using newer chips
   
   
  if it were specs alone, everyone would be  spending less than 500.
   
   
  companies will always price their products roughly in the same price range as their relevant competitors. there are few giant killers out there. some of the items that ppl say were giant killers only turn out to be good in very limited range of music or settings.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> This is awesome. Professional-targeted products are always outstanding for the money. I have no doubts that the 0204 is in the same league as the Grace.


 

 I own the 0404 USB and have serious doubts about this claim.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> I own the 0404 USB and have serious doubts about this claim.


 
  Why's that? I only stopped drinking the kool-aid _very_ recently; I was actually quite forcefully enlightened by quite an intelligent individual (he showed me first-hand, then backed it up with science).
   
  All I can say is be proud of your 0404, and don't ever be in a rush to upgrade it. I wouldn't upgrade it at all. No improvements to be had anywhere.


----------



## endless402

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 lol
   
  someone needs to listen instead of looking at science
   
  we're all too caught up with specs / science
   
  0404 is great for the price
   
  i guess you would rather have a 0404 instead of a berkley or DCS (assuming it didnt cost you more)


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





endless402 said:


> lol
> 
> someone needs to listen instead of looking at science


 

 I have. That's what I mean by quite forcefully enlightened.
   
  My current DAC is $1,200. Months ago, I found it the equal of the likes of the W4S DAC (by ear). Now I find something like the 0404 USB to be equal to either.
   
  If you match the levels of these DACs at the analog output, you will not be able to tell the difference. No one has been able to -- you can Google and do all the research on it that you like. There is documentation of successful differentiation between 320kbps and lossless, but nothing legitimate on successful (lab-worthy) differentiation between DACs.
   
  DACs that show up as audibly different when the output levels are matched simply aren't doing their job correctly. The specifications and tolerances of these DACs are well beyond the scope of human hearing.
   
   
  Buying well-built professional equipment will get the job done every time. This 0204 is a good example.
   
   
  I'd discuss further but it encroaches upon DBT and is belongs mostly in the science forum.


----------



## endless402

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> I have. That's what I mean by quite forcefully enlightened.
> 
> My current DAC is $1,200. Months ago, I found it the equal of the likes of the W4S DAC (by ear). Now I find something like the 0404 USB to be equal to either.
> 
> ...


 

 your dac and W4S shouldnt be that different since they're in the same league. i will agree with that since i find most dacs in the 1k to 2.5k range roughly the same (comes down to preference).
   
  but to say 0404 and W4S sound the same is a big statement, but not as large as to say DAC's dont matter, they sound the same
   
  that statement means that it doesnt matter what the output stage design is or the quality of components used, it will sound the same


----------



## EddieE

[size=x-small]This has turned into a very interesting conversation, thanks to all involved. I'm not great DAC expert, but the more expensive amps I have the opportunity to hear the more I think that once you past a basic quality threshhold where there are no obvious flaws, all amps sound basically the same and the rest is 95% placebo and head-fi mythology 5% actual difference in performance. It would make sense if the same was true of DACs.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]There is an interesting thread I read here where a guy tired out all the expensive lauded dacs with his E-MU 0404 as a reference (he actually did, there were photos posted) and while he did have slight preferences for this or that DAC, the most telling part was where he detailed the real squint eyed listening you have to do to tell a difference between any of them and the 0404.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]However, I do still consider I need an upgrade as the E7 is probably below the above mentioned quality threshold. [/size]
   
  [size=x-small]Point of reference - On the Hifiman HE-4 thread the poster who had them (forget the name) tried them through his FiiO E9 with E7 acting as DAC and then through his Hifiman amp with nice soundcard acting as DAC and found the latter to be much better…[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]…then he tried the FiiO E9 and the Hifiman amp with the nice soundcard as DAC and found the two amps to be very, very similar (which further backs up my points about amps - note the massive difference in price between the hifiman and FiiO amps!).[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]The poster was honest enough to admit his super-cheap FiiO E9 sounded as good as the much more expenive hifiman offering, so I do trust his judgement to say his soundcard was noticably better than the E7.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]The sound card was not a particuarly expensive one, but as was commented on this thread - professional gear tends to perform much better for price than boutique "audiophile" gear and offer better value for money as they cannot rely on myths and hype to sell their products to their more sober audience.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]That's one of the key reasons this appeals to me, along with the fact that I should (and maybe someone could confirm or deny) be able to do RMAA tests as well since this has ADC as well as DAC functionality.[/size]


----------



## evanft

Awesome. I was looking at the 0404, but this looks like basically the same thing but with only the features I really need.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





endless402 said:


> but to say 0404 and W4S sound the same is a big statement, but not as large as to say DAC's dont matter, they sound the same
> that statement means that it doesnt matter what the output stage design is or the quality of components used, it will sound the same


 
  Well, almost. The idiom "garbage in, garbage out" gets thrown around way too often here. I like to think of that phrase as being more suited for file bitrate or source _material_, but I do think that there is a thin layer of garbage in DACs. These are the DACs that do not measure well and do not convert the digital signal faithfully as they are supposed to. Ultra-vintage and tube DACs can fall into this category.
   
  Once you get past that thin film of crap, the rest is pure gold. Most importantly, the "pure gold" DACs _aren't expensive to produce_ -- even this EMU 0204 is likely more expensive than the cheapest of them. Why pay actual pure gold prices when you can get the same level of performance for much less?
   
  I urge you try a controlled test where the analog outputs of the DACs are level-matched, and see if you can tell a difference without knowing which DAC is which. They should sound the same; in a controlled test outliers will fall out of pure gold and into garbage as they are not reproducing the signal faithfully.
   
  Level-matching is the key word. Without level-matching, the findings are no longer valid. Most head-fiers (and indeed, most of the audiophile community at large) play it by ear, which doesn't cut it.


eddiee said:


> [size=x-small]This has turned into a very interesting conversation, thanks to all involved. I'm not great DAC expert, but the more expensive amps I have the opportunity to hear the more I think that once you past a basic quality threshhold where there are no obvious flaws, *all amps sound basically the same and the rest is 95% placebo and head-fi mythology 5% actual difference in performance*. It would make sense if the same was true of DACs.[/size]
> 
> [size=x-small]There is an interesting thread I read here where a guy tired out all the expensive lauded dacs with his E-MU 0404 as a reference (he actually did, there were photos posted) and while he did have slight preferences for this or that DAC, the most telling part was where he detailed the real squint eyed listening you have to do to tell a difference between any of them and the 0404.[/size]
> 
> [size=small]The sound card was not a particuarly expensive one, but as was commented on this thread - professional gear tends to perform much better for price than boutique "audiophile" gear and offer better value for money as they cannot rely on myths and hype to sell their products to their more sober audience.[/size]


 
  If even a 5% actual, concrete difference. Any actual differences (when level-matched) are due to either deficiencies in the upstream material or deficiency in the equipment itself. The electronic equipment may no longer be replicating the signal faithfully, which is a sign of a poorly-manufactured item that should not be bought. _Perceived_ difference takes into account kool-aid phenomena that you mention -- placebo, myth, aesthetics, price-quality associations, et alia.
   
  I remember reading that same thread. I would now wager that the differences he perceived might have been down to very minute level differences or psychological effects, though that head-fier was clearly sipping much less of the kool-aid than anyone else was at the time.
   
  Ultimately you have the right idea. Buy professional equipment (with the highest-end headphones you can afford, since transducers actually do make a very, very palpable difference), and in meet conditions put your system in a black box and calibrate the levels, and I'm sure you'll put many much more expensive systems to shame.
   
   
  The good thing in all of this is I realized my DAC, headphone amp, and speaker amp are all in the pure-gold-class. The bad news is that I grossly overpaid for this level of performance -- $1200, when I could have gotten away with it for considerably cheaper. I'm not complaining though as there are still significantly worse values to be had in value (just peruse the portable amp thread and you'll get an idea of what I mean).


----------



## evanft

I'd sell your DAC and buy an E-MU.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





evanft said:


> I'd sell your DAC and buy an E-MU.


 

  
  I want to move to an EMU 0204 and a stereo receiver of some sort. I wanted to move to the Outlaw RR2150 since it actually has analog bass management in a stereo design, but the DAC inside that unit is legitimately garbage -- it downsamples Redbook to 14-bit or thereabouts from what I've read. I might end up going to an EMU 0204 and the RR2150 actually, but only if I can recoup sufficient costs in selling the Nova. Unfortunately my Nova is nearly one year old so the warranty will be kaput soon (besides being 30 pounds and thus expensive to ship), so I probably wouldn't be able to sell it for enough.


----------



## EddieE

One thing I just cannot seem to find anywhere about this is the physical dimensions of it. Desktop real estate is at a bit of a premium for me so it's always something I'm interested it. 
   
  Anyone see them anywhere?


----------



## endless402

all amps sound the same? uhhh
   
  maybe in the headphone world. the most i've ever spent on a headphone amp was on a woo audio 5
   
   
  in the speaker world, it's rather easy to differentiate different amps, otherwise ppl wouldnt be buying different amplifiers esp when we go between class AB and class A amps
  i went from rotel to roksan (which was similar) to simaudio (much colder / detailed) to accuphase (warmer, less detailed). i've also listened to quite a few different brands of amps from levinson, AR, vitus, bryston, all of which have unique sound signatures
   
   
  the 3 largest changes i found when i changed my dac from dacmagic to bryston was the size of the soundstage, the precise imaging and the fact that the sound doesnt get cluttered when you're listening to complex music


----------



## tlniec

Intriguing product.  I have been considering switching from my 50-ohm HD595 headphones to something like an HD600 or HD650, which have substantially higher impedance (I'm not sure how their sensitivity compares).  If I do so, I'd like to purchase a reasonably priced DAC or DAC/AMP to help drive them.  I had been looking at the Fiio E7, possibly paired with an E9.  But it sure looks to me like the EMU 0204 would be a better choice, provided it can handle that sort of headphone.  Is its amp suited for something like an HD600/HD650?
  Another option might be to feed the output of the EMU (or whatever DAC I get) into an A/V receiver I have available (a very modest one at that, Sony STR-DG510).  Would this be a bad idea?  Thus far, I've been feeding a digital/Toslink signal to it, allowing it to perform as the DAC and its headphone output stage as the amp... should I expect a significant improvement with an outboard DAC?  Or am I wasting my time with a separate DAC if I continue to use the Sony as my amp?  Thanks!


----------



## Yoga Flame

Maybe feed the stereo line-out of the EMU 0204 into the E9 amp?


----------



## hddoc

I am currently using an E-mu 0202 with a new MacBook Air.
   
  Unlike with my Sony laptop, I have been unable to output 24 bit/192kHz files natively via USB to the E-mu DAC from the Mac. I do so using asio and either JRiver or Foobar.
   
  Is the Mac limited to 96kHz output via USB or do I need to use a different program or drivers to output a 24/192 signal over USB to the E-mu DAC?


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





tlniec said:


> But it sure looks to me like the EMU 0204 would be a better choice, provided it can handle that sort of headphone.  Is its amp suited for something like an HD600/HD650?


 
  The built-in headphone section is rather anemic, unfortunately. It's only rated for 20 mW @ 22 ohms and those Sennheisers are 300 ohms, so you may find it lacking in bass and volume. Regarding questions about using the Sony, it all depends on how much effort they put into designing the headphone section. In an entry-level model, probably not much.
   
  The whole "level match and everything will sound the same" makes sense until you ask yourself, which level am I matching? One frequency? Broadband noise? What about frequency _timing__?_ Sure, Mackie HR824s have very flat frequency responses according to the charts, but what those charts don't take into account is the passive woofer design the Mackies use to generate more bass. The passive woofer takes a small amount of time to start vibrating. Hence the common knowledge that the bass on HR824s is "weird" even though they measure flat.
   
  Measurements are a great start, but they aren't everything. Neither are the results of one person's DBT.


----------



## EddieE

[size=x-small]I don't think anyone was suggesting for a second all speakers and headphones sound the same or even that they should.[/size]


----------



## infinitesymphony

Maybe it's apples and oranges, but the same logic can be applied to other audio equipment as well. Different equipment measures differently, and sometimes those differences can be audible. And in the case I mentioned above, the measurements were incomplete.


----------



## EddieE

Different pieces of audio equipment have different tasks.
   
  The source, dac, amp are all meant to reproduce music accurately, and CAN reproduce music accurately at this point in time.
   
  Speakers and headphones might try and accurately reproduce music, they might try and offer some flavour of music, or an outrageous "fun" sound sig - it is at this point where the consumers personal tastes come into things (along with equalisers, sound enhancements, filters etc).
   
  There is an interesting thread here where someone brought up an article talking about how the audio industry has long past the point where they can accurately reproduce a recording, so are now selling distortion and innaccuracy instead.
   
  Certainly sounds right to me - look at the hifiman presented as the best player even though it is the least accurate and tube amps as the most audiophile you can even though the difference is distortion. We have pleasing sounding defects in amps and sources being sold as desirable product features.
   
  [size=x-small]Selling products with distortiona and innacuracy is great for everyone in the business because it brings choice into proceedings, it brings judgements of taste of those who like this kind of innacuracy and those who prefer this sort of distortion, it allows people to keep on upping prices claiming the is the best most "audiophile" sound yet only to magically top it 12 months down the line in time for a new financial year.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]But, the article argues, in reality at the point where we really are with audio, we could have reduced the chocies relating to personal taste we make to headphones and speakers - the only choice in amps and dacs would be to do with the features offered by the model, the headphones/speakers it could drive and the reliability of the manufacturer.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]But where's the endless profit in that?[/size]


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> The whole "level match and everything will sound the same" makes sense until you ask yourself, which level am I matching? One frequency? Broadband noise? What about frequency _timing__?_ Sure, Mackie HR824s have very flat frequency responses according to the charts, but what those charts don't take into account is the passive woofer design the Mackies use to generate more bass. The passive woofer takes a small amount of time to start vibrating. Hence the common knowledge that the bass on HR824s is "weird" even though they measure flat.
> 
> Measurements are a great start, but they aren't everything. Neither are the results of one person's DBT.


 

 Transducers do not sound the same. In speakers, we are affected by two variables: the speakers themselves, and the sound of the room. In headphones the latter phenomenon is greatly reduced, but there are still positively differences in the former. We know this, this is measurable. Frequency response is a very basic starting indicator.
   
  There are a couple of other things that will not necessarily sound the same. Off the top of my head, I believe turntable heads may be one of them. I have no experience with turntables so don't quote me on this.
   
  However, modern-day DACs and amplifiers (i.e. _electronics_) that are well-built will measure far beyond the perceptive capability of the human ear. Ergo they will all sound the same once the levels (between the two pieces of hardware being compared) are matched in an otherwise consistent system, unless again the component is faulty. Electronics (DACs, amplifiers, CDPs, transports, et alia) sound the same.


----------



## dynasonic

Lot's of enlightening posts so far and I have to agree with some of the sentiments regarding low cost to high cost DAC's. For instance I have never found a piece of audio equipment that sounds better than my very first purchase more than 20 years ago.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Electronics (DACs, amplifiers, CDPs, transports, et alia) sound the same.


 
   
  Regardless of design? Regardless of what they're powering? Regardless of impedance matches or mismatches? Regardless of measurable performance differences? You seem to be okay with acknowledging that there are a high number of variables in terms of transducer performance but seem unwilling to apply the same logic to anything else.
   
  Make a CMoy and roll some op-amps if you want an extremely audible example.


----------



## EddieE

To be fair transducers are moving parts where there is a lot more margin for variables than electronics, then the end sound they produce has as much to do with acoustics as the driver design itself which is an even bigger mine field of variables. Even if someone wanted to make a 100% realistic speaker, there is guarantee they would succeed, indeed that is the mission of many speaker manufacturers and I don't think anyone has done it yet.
   
  As 3X0 says with solid state circuitry we are talking a whole different reality.
   
  If a DAC's function is to reproduce an analogue line out signal from a digital source, modern dacs CAN do that. If an amp wants to amplify that lineout signal accurately and without any audible distortion it CAN do that. 
   
  I get what you're saying about minor differences existing, which is why I have been saying "basically the same" rather than "identical", but the differences are minor and once you get past the budget stuff I don't know how much audible improvement you get even if you spend a thousand more.


----------



## vrln

Just posting my experience... Had the 0404USB. Long story short: worst DAC I´ve ever tried. Harsh, tiny soundstage, lacks detail as well. I actually prefered my built-in PC integrated card. And it´s not that I just have an issue with analytical gear (running REF7 + Genelec)!
   
  Oh and the built-in headphone amp is pretty (to say the least) weak as well. My advice would be to stay as far as possible.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> Regardless of design? Regardless of what they're powering? Regardless of impedance matches or mismatches? Regardless of measurable performance differences? You seem to be okay with acknowledging that there are a high number of variables in terms of transducer performance but seem unwilling to apply the same logic to anything else.
> 
> Make a CMoy and roll some op-amps if you want an extremely audible example.


 
  Yes, yes, yes, and yes with reservations.
   
  Design by and large doesn't matter if they meet the basic requirements of faithful reproduction. 20Hz-20KHz, inaudibly low distortion, inaudibly low stereo crosstalk, et alia. The difference in such statistics in well-built, soundly-engineered components are beyond the range of any human hearing. Even a baby (n.b. we have hypersensitive hearing when we are young) with especially golden ears wouldn't be able to tell the difference, unless the component is defective or poorly designed (i.e. doesn't reproduce a flat frequency response with inaudibly low distortion and crosstalk, et cetera). Building a well-performing DAC and amp (or virtually any upstream electronic component, for that matter) is _incredibly cheap_ relative to what people spend for their audiophile-voodoo-powered gear.
   
  The caveat is that something like a Sansa Clip+ may not be capable of driving something like Sennheiser HD 650s to sufficient SPL. In this case an amp with higher output may be logically preferable. The Clip+ would obviously be voltage-limited.
   
   
  There is no data proving the absurd notion that decent DACs and amps sound even remotely different. None whatsoever. No tests, nothing.
   
  Once again the differences in transducer performance is sufficiently documented and recorded in audio history. If you level-match two different sets of speakers in the same positions in acoustically identical rooms they very well may sound different. If you level-match a single set of speakers in two acoustically different rooms they will most definitely sound different.
  Quote: 





eddiee said:


> To be fair transducers are moving parts where there is a lot more margin for variables than electronics, then the end sound they produce has as much to do with acoustics as the driver design itself which is an even bigger mine field of variables. Even if someone wanted to make a 100% realistic speaker, there is guarantee they would succeed, indeed that is the mission of many speaker manufacturers and I don't think anyone has done it yet.
> 
> As 3X0 says with solid state circuitry we are talking a whole different reality.
> 
> ...


 

 Correct. I'm more extreme than you though, which is why I argue that they are identical. I argue that because my ears have heard the equality first-hand; I've already invested thousands in the futility and rue it.


----------



## endless402

try some more dacs


----------



## infinitesymphony

Unless you guys feel like shutting down all of the forums except for the ones about headphones and speakers as a result of 3X0's personal revelations, let's resume talking about the 0204 and computer audio.


----------



## BlackbeardBen

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> Unless you guys feel like shutting down all of the forums except for the ones about headphones and speakers as a result of 3X0's personal revelations, let's resume talking about the 0204 and computer audio.


 

  
  The thing is, features unrelated to sound quality still matter.  And to many, build quality does too.
   
  Oh, and it's extremely unlikely that everyone will suddenly have a revelation, realizing that all uncolored quality amps and dacs sound the same....


----------



## MrSlim

Quote: 





hddoc said:


> I am currently using an E-mu 0202 with a new MacBook Air.
> 
> Unlike with my Sony laptop, I have been unable to output 24 bit/192kHz files natively via USB to the E-mu DAC from the Mac. I do so using asio and either JRiver or Foobar.
> 
> Is the Mac limited to 96kHz output via USB or do I need to use a different program or drivers to output a 24/192 signal over USB to the E-mu DAC?


 
  According to the 0202 specs here: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15186&nav=technicalSpecifications there is no limitation on OSX on the USB port, as long as it is USB 2.0.  OSX (10.4.3 or better) core audio supports the USB 2.0 Audio spec completely.   Russ over at Twisted Pear is developing an XMOS based USB transport and is getting 24/192 out via USB with the native OS drivers (Linux/ALSA/MPD also supports USB Audio 2.0).  Looking forward to seeing how that beast is going to change things..


----------



## Cankin

Quote: 





mrslim said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   

 Synchronization
  














 Internal crystal sync at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
 
 * Macintosh analog operation up to 96kHz only at this time.


----------



## MrSlim

oops , my bad.. thanks for the correction..


----------



## JRunior

Having the E-MU 0404, I can tell you it's made a nice improvement in sound for my setup.  I'd assume if the components are the same in the 0204 it's a rock solid product!  Hope you enjoy it.  I might try a different DAC in the future but I don't see myself doing that anytime soon and especially not until I get the required equipment to do room measurements; I'm well aware of confirmation bias which I unfortunately believe plague the Audiophile community.


----------



## authistic

Will the 0204 USB be able to drive 600 Ohms phones like DT880 to very high volumes?
   
  Looking for something like this, because at the moment I am using a stereo ampifiler, connected with my onboard sound via cinch.
   
  lg


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





authistic said:


> Will the 0204 USB be able to drive 600 Ohms phones like DT880 to very high volumes?


 

 Here are the headphone amp specs for the 0204:
   
  Maximum Output Power: 16mW
 Output impedance: 22ohms
   
  So, you can safely assume that the headphone amp would not be enough for your headphones. For comparison, the Asus Xonar STX puts out 200 mW @ 62 ohms with its internal headphone amp.


----------



## dsnyder

Howdy,
   
  This has certainly be an interesting thread.  
   
  Like many here, I have not purchased the E-MU 0204 USB yet, but I do have the older 0404 USB.  If the 0204 USB sounds at least as good as the 0404, it will make a great addition to just about anyone's kit.  I've not tried my 0404 with a Mac, but the manuals still say that 176.4/192 kHz operation is only supported on Windows.  Both interfaces offer excellent value for money.  If you don't need MIDI and S/PDIF in's and out's, 48V phantom power, and balanced variable outputs, the 0204 is the way to go.  I do wish that there was an external power option for the 0204.  Running it on USB bus power can't possibly help sound quality, but using an audiophile grade USB cable with good separation between power and signal lines should help.  I've said it on another thread, but I'll repeat it here:  the E-MU 0204 USB is probably the least expensive decent sounding way to add native 24-bit, 176.4/192kHz playback to your (Windows based) computer audio system.  As a bonus, you can use its ADC feature to record your vinyl and SACDs.  
   
  As for comparing the E-MU audio interfaces to the likes of Grace Design, Benchmark, Wyred 4 Sound, Weiss, dCS, and so on...well, I think that's interesting.  Theories on which should or could sound better are not as interesting as reports of actual listening experiences...ideally A/B experiences in the same playback system.  One would certainly hope that a $1,500 DAC sounds noticeably better than a $129 DAC.  Ten times better?  Probably not.  A Ferrari 458 Italia does not go ten times as fast as a Hyundai Genesis.  It's probably not ten times as fun to drive (I have no experience to share...anyone care to report?).  The reality is that folks who are in the market for a ~$250k sports car are unlikely to seriously consider alternatives in the $25k price range and vice versa.  The same is true of DACs.
   
  A far more interesting comparison might be the sound quality of the E-MU 0204 USB vs. the HRT Music Streamer II, the NuForce Icon uDAC-2, or even the M-Audio Transit, for example.  These can't match the E-MU's functionality, but if all you're looking for is playback capability, they are worth considering.  Cheers.
   
  -- David


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





dsnyder said:


> As for comparing the E-MU audio interfaces to the likes of Grace Design, Benchmark, Wyred 4 Sound, Weiss, dCS, and so on...well, I think that's interesting.  Theories on which should or could sound better are not as interesting as reports of actual listening experiences...ideally A/B experiences in the same playback system.  One would certainly hope that a $1,500 DAC sounds noticeably better than a $129 DAC.  Ten times better?  Probably not.  A Ferrari 458 Italia does not go ten times as fast as a Hyundai Genesis.  It's probably not ten times as fun to drive (I have no experience to share...anyone care to report?).  The reality is that folks who are in the market for a ~$250k sports car are unlikely to seriously consider alternatives in the $25k price range and vice versa.  The same is true of DACs.
> 
> -- David


 

  
  Scientifically-conducted testing indicates that level-matched DACs don't make a difference.
   
  If anything the "high-end" crap aren't really DACs, but sound processors. I'd be worried about what kinds of horrible things they do to the poor signal. They might sound "better" in the sense that they don't provide a genuinely accurate, precise representation of the signal, nevermind volume levels and psychological phenomena affecting the listener. I'd take the E-MU over them any day of the week.
   
  I think the thing that hurts the E-MU 0204 is that its price is awfully close to that of a second-hand 0404 USB.


----------



## dsnyder

Hello,
  
  Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Scientifically-conducted testing indicates that level-matched DACs don't make a difference.


 

  Perhaps.  I have not encountered published reports of such studies from credible sources.  In any case, this is contrary to my personal experience and I suspect to the experiences of most members of this forum.  If different DACs don't make an audible difference in your system, that's cool.  However, it's somewhat less cool for one to suggest that different high quality DACs dont't make a difference to me in my system or that my experience is not valid because it's different from theirs.  Just a thought..and apologizes if I have misunderstood.  Cheers.
   
  -- David


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

This looks like a timely update to the E-MU range.
   
  Potential customers might also care to consider this direct competitor
   
  FocusRite Sapphire 6. http://www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire_6_usb/Specifications_/#Specifications_
   
  It's got slightly more flexible output routing options and comes with a better software bundle.
   
  Stuff like the mic pre amps and headphone amp on devices like this might be slightly suspect compared to more expensive units but I'll eat my shorts if they don't provide a clean and transparent AD/DA facility.
   
  As far as 'sound quality' goes these devices are different from loudspeakers, headphone, cartridges and the like. They have a maximum quality. Transparent to the discerning human auditory system. If you are the sort of bloke who hears differences in different brands of USB cable then DACs might sound different. Otherwise - probably not - and even if you did it would be monumentally dwarfed by spending a fraction of the extra on better transducer and/or room treatment.


----------



## scompton

Someone, Tomb if I remember correctly, measured crosstalk in the 0404 USB's mini TRS output.  I don't know if it was audible.  He didn't measure any in the 2 jack output.
   
  I really like the attenuator for the line out signal with the 0404 USB.  I can't really live without it because almost every amp I've tried has too much gain.  If I use the straight line out, I rarely get an amps volume knob past 8 o'clock.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





dsnyder said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> Perhaps.  I have not encountered published reports of such studies from credible sources.  In any case, this is contrary to my personal experience and I suspect to the experiences of most members of this forum.  If different DACs don't make an audible difference in your system, that's cool.  However, it's somewhat less cool for one to suggest that different high quality DACs dont't make a difference to me in my system or that my experience is not valid because it's different from theirs.  Just a thought..and apologizes if I have misunderstood.  Cheers.
> ...


 

 Browse Sound Science or AVS Forums and you'll find tons of useful information and references. Beyond that, there have been no scientifically-sound studies published that suggest otherwise. This does not necessarily support the fact of DACs sounding the same, but at the very least show a lack of sufficiency for the contrariwise "belief" and make the belief of this audiophile "belief" irrational.
   
  I'm saying that the differences you heard are completely down to mismatched levels or a defective electronic component. On a less strict level, on the infinitesimally small probability that it is not down to either of the aforementioned factors, the "high quality" DAC is doing "filtering" and horrible things to the signal.
   
  I have a $1200 DAC that I bought when I was drinking the same kool-aid and pulling your same strawman arguments, and I know I should've gone with something less than 10% of the price.


----------



## dsnyder

Howdy,
  
  Quote: 





3x0 said:


> I'm saying that the differences you heard are completely down to mismatched levels or a defective electronic component. On a less strict level, on the infinitesimally small probability that it is not down to either of the aforementioned factors, the "high quality" DAC is doing "filtering" and horrible things to the signal.


 

 You have an interesting opinion regarding how these differences in sound among DACs could be explained.  While I respect your opinion and your right to express it here or anywhere else, head-fi.org seems like a weird choice of fora to express it _so strongly_.  It's like logging into a Wine Aficionados' forum and posting about how the chemical properties of wine are no different at 45 degrees then they are at 65 degrees, therefore it's scientifically impossible for serving temperature to affect taste.  There are better analogies; someone help me out here!  LOL.
   
  This is a "high-end personal audio" form.  We're all here because we choose to be.  Most of us really like DACs.  This is an exciting time to be involved in this hobby.  We get excited when a new DAC hits the marketplace and has the potential to advance the state of the art in digital music playback.  It's kind-of a downer when you show up and tell us that all DACs sound the same and that our experience can never be improved beyond where it is today--that the leading high-end DACs do _"horrible things to the signal"_ instead of providing a glimpse into what will be possible at more accessible price-points in the future.
   
  You are obviously a well respected contributer here, and I truly believe that you mean well.  It sounds like you may have been burned by your DAC purchase experiences and hope to save the rest of us from the same frustration.  This is an honorable thing to do, but from what I've read, the vast majority of folks here are really digging their new DACs and what these things have done to enhance their enjoyment of music.  While it's possible that we're deluded, please just let us have our fun.  
   
  -- David


----------



## dsnyder

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> If you are the sort of bloke who hears differences in different brands of USB cable then DACs might sound different. Otherwise - probably not - and even if you did it would be monumentally dwarfed by spending a fraction of the extra on better transducer and/or room treatment.


 

 Haha.  I can't argue with that!  Even moving loudspeakers an inch or two can make a more _noticeable _difference to the sound of a playback system than swapping out a DAC (or USB cable, for that matter).
   
  The _qualities_ of these types of changes are different though.  Improvements to a music playback system are multi-dimensional and have the capacity to build on one another.  A better DAC will often make the enhancements introduced by better transducers (headphones or loudspeakers)...well, better.  It's all part of the fun of this hobby!
   
  Back to the original topic of this thread...although it was apparently not designed with our purpose in mind, the Creative E-MU 0204 USB is a fine entry point into high resolution digital audio playback.  It's not a device for the faint of heart since there are drivers to setup, ASIO plug-ins to install and configure, latency timings to fiddle with, etc., but once one gets all of that dialed in (and assuming the sound is >= 0404 USB), it's all well worth it.  There are more purpose-built alternatives with fewer features that are a bit easier to setup, but I'm glad to see that Creative is still investing in this product line.  Cheers.
   
  -- David


----------



## Eric_C

FWIW, 3X0 I value your analysis of the supposed differences between DACs from both your personal experience and a survey of the studies out there. And dsnyder, I think many "seasoned" members of Head-Fi might do well to learn from your reasoned preference to agree to disagree.
   
  3X0, it's heartening to read that you consider expensive DACs an unwise investment for accuracy (or perhaps we might call it audio fidelity). In your opinion, the DAC in my M-Audio FireWire interface should be fine? As would the built-in DAC on a MacBook Pro?


----------



## scompton

Quote: 





dsnyder said:


> Howdy,
> 
> 
> You have an interesting opinion regarding how these differences in sound among DACs could be explained.  While I respect your opinion and your right to express it here or anywhere else, head-fi.org seems like a weird choice of fora to express it _so strongly_.  It's like logging into a Wine Aficionados' forum and posting about how the chemical properties of wine are no different at 45 degrees then they are at 65 degrees, therefore it's scientifically impossible for serving temperature to affect taste.  There are better analogies; someone help me out here!  LOL.


 

 That's a perfect analogy because you'd want to serve the wines at the exact same temperature, just like the line levels should be matched for any listening test.  If levels aren't matched, whichever is louder is going to be judged better in nearly 100% of the cases.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Something to note about this product which marks it out from most, if not all, competitors at the price:-
   
  The EM-U 0204, like the 0202 which came before, comes complete with a 1/8" microphone input which is capable of supplying 5V phantom power suitable for driving an electret condenser microphone i.e one used on a headset or mobile phone.
   
  This can be remarkably handy and I miss it on other supposedly better products. I've never been able to find anything that either adapts a 48V phantom power supply (suitable for studio condenser mics) to 5V or delivers 5V in some other way, perhaps from a battery. If anyone reading knows of such a device I'd be pleased to hear from them.


----------



## EddieE

[size=x-small]What really gets me is why anyone _wants_ DACs and amps to sound different?[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]How does that benefit the consumer? [/size]
   
  [size=x-small]We have all the choice in the world as to how our transucers sound and if you get in to speakers a whole mine field of room acosutics to deal with, in adition we have equalisers, sound filters and so on - there is every option for how our music sounds in the area it is supposed to be.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]A DAC has a specific job - to create a clean, accurate lineout signal from a digital source. An amp has a specific job - to amplify it to power transducers without audible distortion or noise. [/size]
   
  [size=x-small]Both those tasks are, in the present day, perfectly acheivable with the technology we have.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]There is an upper roof when it comes to those specific tasks and one which I and others believe can be done for a lot less than many are paying.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]The culture of amp reviews reading like restaurants reviews comes from a time when amp manufacturers could not achieve that perfection and had to market their own version of imperfection as being a better sounding one than everyone elses.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]I can understand why manufacturers and hifi magazines want to carry that culture on (profit) but in reality amps sounding different was a problem, not a desired status quo, same with early DAC chips - they couldn't do their jobs properly and that "smooth audiophile sound" people who got early CD players loved was just a result of rolled off treble. It was never a desirable quality in an instrument whoes key job description is accuracy. If the consumer wants less treble - plenty of transducers can do that for them, or a good equaliser or sound filter.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]We now have obsolete DAC whichs which audibly roll of the treble being presented as the most sought after component in a system, tube amps which distort being bandied about as the zenith of audio joy - this puts the ball back where the manufacturers want it with everything being subjective again and everyone spending a bomb on buying amp after amp and dac after dac looking for perfection. I get why the manufacturers and broader industry want to keep hold of this, but why does the consumer?[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]If the consumer stopped going for it, and got professional quality gear for a fraction of the price of "boutique audiophile" gear which did their jobs perfectly we'd all be a lot better off and be able to spend our money on headphones, speakers, acoustics and of course - MUSIC - what this is all about after all.[/size]


----------



## Omega17TheTrue

^ While i understand your point its like asking why people are so different between them-self, do you want a world made of clones with the same face, culture,beliefs,views,hearing,food and language ?

Imagine how the world would be dull with only one brand in the world making the exact same gear... and only one band playing music just to ensure it is truly authentic.


----------



## dsnyder

Hello,
  
  Quote: 





eddiee said:


> [size=x-small]What really gets me is why anyone _wants_ DACs and amps to sound different?[/size]
> [size=small]...[/size]
> [size=x-small]A DAC has a specific job - to create a clean, accurate lineout signal from a digital source. An amp has a specific job - to amplify it to power transducers without audible distortion or noise. [/size]
> 
> [size=x-small]Both those tasks are, in the present day, perfectly acheivable with the technology we have.[/size]


 
   
  Very good points, and I'm with you!  I sincerely wish that all DACs sounded _exactly _like the Weiss DAC 202.  It's annoying that they don't.  It's even more annoying that in a year or two Weiss or someone else will almost certainly produce a DAC that sounds even better while others will produce DACs that sound nearly as good for a fraction of its $6,700 price.
   
  While I do believe that Grace Design, Weiss, dCS, Benchmark, Wyred 4 Sound, Empirical Audio and other DAC manufactures are in business to make money, I also believe that they are hoping to do this by designing and building what they honestly believe are the best sounding DAC's at their target price points.  Most of these guys are audiophiles and recordists themselves, and they aim to create products that they would want to own themselves.
   
  While unscrupulous vendors exist in every industry, businesses that consistently provide customers with good service and good value for money tend to succeed in the long-term.  If there is actually no sonic difference between products like the Weiss DAC 2 (or Grace Design m903) and the E-MU 0204 USB, this secret won't stay a secret for very long.  I guess time will tell.  
   
  -- David


----------



## thuantran

Omega I think you miss the point of EddieE, if you want a certain flavor you can apply certain DSP or different transducers. The problem is supposedly you could make perfectly transparent gears, it's not always the case that you could find a suitable DSP to create the sound you want. Personally I prefer EddieE's world as to me DACoversion is a mathematically process , but for cars, women, wine,... and similar stuffs, it's another matter...


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> FWIW, 3X0 I value your analysis of the supposed differences between DACs from both your personal experience and a survey of the studies out there. And dsnyder, I think many "seasoned" members of Head-Fi might do well to learn from your reasoned preference to agree to disagree.
> 
> 3X0, it's heartening to read that you consider expensive DACs an unwise investment for accuracy (or perhaps we might call it audio fidelity). In your opinion, the DAC in my M-Audio FireWire interface should be fine? As would the built-in DAC on a MacBook Pro?


 
  Yes, the only question is whether they will drive your headphones to sufficient volume levels. Volume is the only audibly differentiable variable.
  Quote: 





scompton said:


> That's a perfect analogy because you'd want to serve the wines at the exact same temperature, just like the line levels should be matched for any listening test.  If levels aren't matched, whichever is louder is going to be judged better in nearly 100% of the cases.


 
  Yes.
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif[size=small]Both those tasks are, in the present day, perfectly acheivable with the technology we have.[/size]
> 
> [size=x-small]I can understand why manufacturers and hifi magazines want to carry that culture on (profit) but in reality amps sounding different was a problem, not a desired status quo, same with early DAC chips - they couldn't do their jobs properly and that "smooth audiophile sound" people who got early CD players loved was just a result of rolled off treble. It was never a desirable quality in an instrument whoes key job description is accuracy. If the consumer wants less treble - plenty of transducers can do that for them, or a good equaliser or sound filter.[/size]
> 
> ...


 
  Yes. My Nova actually has a filter on the back that, when set to "Soft", actually makes the unit _less_ accurate (Peachtree straight-up admits that it makes the unit measure less well)! Yet audiophile magazines, publications, and sheep tend to follow that the soft filter sounds more pleasing. It's ridiculous.
  Quote: 





dsnyder said:


> While unscrupulous vendors exist in every industry, businesses that consistently provide customers with good service and good value for money tend to succeed in the long-term.  If there is actually no sonic difference between products like the Weiss DAC 2 (or Grace Design m903) and the E-MU 0204 USB, this secret won't stay a secret for very long.  I guess time will tell.


 
  It's no secret. There's evidence, papers, documentation everywhere. People are just victims to marketing. "Audiophile" publications nowadays need to market vendor products to make money. Boutique shops selling "high-end" electronics have been closing steadily. It's not an industry with a great deal of growth potential, so there's a lot of bollocks being thrown around by fairly untalented marketers that is eaten up by fairly gullible audiophiles that would do much better for there money (actually infinity better, since the denominator in the equation of sonic improvement would be 0) with a better set of headphones. For one thing, headphones actually legitimately measure differently, and these differences are actually audible.
   
  It kills me that so many audiophiles possessed by the notion of differences in DACs (or any properly level-matched components) purely resort to strawman arguments.


----------



## infinitesymphony

I'd like to see the scientific studies that objectively demonstrated no differences between DACs with entirely different components. Listening tests are subjective and system-dependent.
   
  "Level match and everything will sound the same" is like saying a pair of iPod earbuds can be EQ'd to sound exactly like Sennheiser HD650s. At some point, the performance of the components matters. DACs are all imperfectly trying to approximate the original signal; does that make them all "defective?" I suspect the response will be, "But listeners X, Y, and Z couldn't hear a difference!" Maybe they couldn't. Some people can and base their careers around it. Not everyone is equipped to be a mastering engineer, after all.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> "Level match and everything will sound the same" is like saying a pair of iPod earbuds can be EQ'd to sound exactly like Sennheiser HD650s.


 

 Another strawman argument. No, these are two different things. Headphones absolutely sound different. You cannot EQ away the design (housing, damping, et alia) of the headphone housing nor the characteristics of the driver(s, crossover).


----------



## infinitesymphony

Headphones sound "entirely different" only because you yourself can hear the difference, right?


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> Headphones sound "entirely different" only because you yourself can hear the difference, right?


 
  No, because the differences are _measurable_. This isn't even a question of blind-testing anymore.
   
  Strawman again?


----------



## infinitesymphony

The differences in DAC components (and their resulting outputs) are measurable. Take a quick look through the Benchmark DAC1 thread and you'll see the designer's justifications for the DAC's parts selection. How did he decide which parts to use? He measured them within the system using scientific equipment and chose the ones with the most accurate signal reproduction.
   
  If both headphones and DACs have measurable differences, my argument is not a straw man, it's an analogy. I'll avoid using those in the future because you seem to be treating DACs as a special case.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

I understand X3O's position perfectly and cannot understand why you don't either.
   
  A DAC (or an amp or a cable) differs from a transducer (speaker, microphone, earbud etc) in that it has a theoretical maximum 'sound quality'.
   
  Clean. Transparent. You don't know it's there. To within the ability of the human auditory system to differentiate. Really expensive gear may look more impressive on paper. It might even make sense in a studio context where tracks may be bounced down many, many times. On final mastered material though - once you cannot hear the difference it's pointless going further. That can be done nowadays at a very reasonable cost. Very reasonable indeed.
   
  I can understand the pride in ownership aspects of having a really high quality, well designed, built and supported product even if i know it's probably over engineered for the job in hand.
   
  What's wrong is designing and marketing a DAC on the basis it 'sounds better' than the competition. It shouldn't 'sound better'. It should sound as if it isn't there at all. A DAC shouldn't have to function like an EQ or effect. If you really do want to modify the sound to suit personal taste, fashion, space or existing equipment there are much easier and cheaper ways to do that.


----------



## tlniec

Another way to look at this, perhaps... communications equipment (i.e. radios) ROUTINELY perform ADC, DAC, and amplification functions on signals in the GHz frequencies.  We can get a transmitter to "talk to" a receiver (provided it's using the appropriate protocol/waveform and tuned to the appropriate frequency).  That receiver can reproduce the original signal bit-for-bit (e.g. in a datalink).  Granted, error-correction/re-transmission/etc may be involved, which you wouldn't typically see in audio equipment.  But still... why is it so hard to believe in transparent equipment at audio frequencies WAAAAAAAAAY down in the KHz, again?


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> The differences in DAC components (and their resulting outputs) are measurable. Take a quick look through the Benchmark DAC1 thread and you'll see the designer's justifications for the DAC's parts selection. How did he decide which parts to use? He measured them within the system using scientific equipment and chose the ones with the most accurate signal reproduction.
> 
> If both headphones and DACs have measurable differences, my argument is not a straw man, it's an analogy. I'll avoid using those in the future because you seem to be treating DACs as a special case.


 
  Marketing. The designer wants to sell you his product. He wants you to buy it, and many will insist you keep it for 90 days of "burn-in" so that your opportunity for credit card protection is gone.
   
  Do you also believe in jitter, cables and power conditioning?
   


  Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> What's wrong is designing and marketing a DAC on the basis it 'sounds better' than the competition. It shouldn't 'sound better'. It should sound as if it isn't there at all. A DAC shouldn't have to function like an EQ or effect. If you really do want to modify the sound to suit personal taste, fashion, space or existing equipment there are much easier and cheaper ways to do that.


 
  Absolutely. It is dirt cheap to produce a DAC that translates a digital signal completely faithfully. People need to stop drinking the kool-aid.


----------



## infinitesymphony

You're trying to put across the idea that everyone hears the same and all DACs perform flawlessly under all conditions regardless of parts, quality, and external factors. Talk about oversimplification! This has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of arguably most of Head-Fi, nor is it the experience of most people who record and produce audio.
   
  I don't inherently 'believe' in anything, but do I think jitter, cables, and power conditioning can result in differences? Yes, and not always positive ones (ex. anecdotally speaking, my experience with lower-end power conditioners). One area we can both agree on is that after a certain point, it's not worth throwing more money at a problem for minimal improvements. For example, I wouldn't consider spending thousands of dollars on cables just because they might measure slightly better than a cable that costs $1/foot. I'm acutely aware of snake oil tactics, but to say that anything better than an inexpensive audio interface isn't worthwhile for anyone is presumptuous.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Double-post.


----------



## cer

Specs on the Emu page have been revised and it seems 0204 USB actually has UNBALANCED outputs (same as 0202 USB).
  Quote: 





> Analog Line Outputs (2)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Omega17TheTrue

thuantran said:


> Omega I think you miss the point of EddieE, if you want a certain *flavor* you can apply certain DSP or different transducers. The problem is supposedly you could make *perfectly transparent* gears, it's not always the case that you could find a suitable DSP to *create the sound you want*. Personally I prefer EddieE's world as to me DACoversion is a *mathematically process* , but for cars, women, wine,... and similar stuffs, it's another matter...




No the "problem" is that for a lot of factors we don't hear the same thing and thus the definition of "neutral" greatly differ, everything from the complete audio chain add a distortion called "flavor" even the most transparent gear, if everyone want to hear the same thing it is physically impossible unless for computers.


----------



## miku39

Quick A/B testing is really hard for me, maybe that is because my poor memory,
 so when I acquired new gear I rely on my long term memory of songs, which have been printed on my mind by frequent listening,
 to discern any difference.
 As such volume matching is done only ear.
 Suppose that any difference is due to volume difference.
 Won't the result be random depending on whether I match my usual listening volume?
 As ears are not accurate I can hit a bit lower or a bit higher.
 Then suppose after several months I've been accustomed to my new DAC and I compared it to my old one.
 Won't the result supposed to be random again?

 And when I read a thread about a new DAC where majority of the poster said that it betters their current one,
 can I say that those posters all listening to the new DAC at higher volume than the old one by chance?
 That is assuming they do not A/B test and level matching electronically.
 Also assuming that there are no broken parts and those DAC are designed to produce faithful signal.

 What do you guys think?
   
  @Omega
  I think that is what EddiE meant. Transparent electronically. He does not say we all hear the same thing.
   
  Now that leads to another question. How do one know if a DAC produce faithful signal or color it?
  Since ears are not neutral, it can not be a reference. If we measure it electronically, is it enough?


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





omega17thetrue said:


> No the "problem" is that for a lot of factors we don't hear the same thing and thus the definition of "neutral" greatly differ, everything from the complete audio chain add a distortion called "flavor" even the most transparent gear, if everyone want to hear the same thing it is physically impossible unless for computers.


 

 False. We hear the same thing, perception of what we are hearing (which is in fact the same signal) may be different. This does not change what is true.
   
  The "flavor" concept only really applies to equipment that is defective or designed poorly. Why should electronic equipment -- that measure the within tolerances so infinitesimal that no human (not even a naturally hypersensitive baby with superhuman hearing capabilities) could perceive -- sound any different?


----------



## miku39

what about HRTF?


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





miku39 said:


> what about HRTF?


 


  Doesn't change the signal we're receiving, only the process of receiving. The output is the same.
   
  Let's say someone says the word "dog" and you hear the word "cat." That doesn't change the fact that the person _said_ the word "dog."


----------



## seanmo

ok, so just starting to do research on DAC's as I want to have decent audio coming out of my PC
  headphones include ms1's, m50's, westone 3's and a variety of IEM's
   
  would this be a good beginner dac option?
  or would the e9/e7 option be better for long term flexibility since it could drive something like the dt770 or senn 650?
   
  thanks for any and all info


----------



## harpua

All I can say is that the external DAC/amp I plugged into my USB port on my laptop has made a huge difference in the quality of the sound I hear.  So obviously it is significantly better than the on board DAC and amplification that are inside my computer.  If I go back and try to listen to my system without the external unit but with the same headphones, it is almost unbearable for me to listen to now.  So in my case upgrading to an external USB DAC/amp unit was money well spent, imo.  I doubt I could have gotten the same overall quality, including but not limited to unit size, features, input options, output power, and other specs, as well as perceived audio quality for much less $$, including the unit that is the subject of this thread, although it does have ADC and recording oriented features that my unit lacks.  But the E-MU unit lacks the power to adequately drive my preferred headphones, among other things, and I sincerely doubt it sounds as good as what I'm currently using.


----------



## EddieE

[size=x-small]Nobody is going to deny an external soundcard or dac and amp is going to improve soundquality from the one that comes inside your computer. Everybody on this thread, on both sides, uses an external DAC and Amp as far as I know.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]Notice throughout this thread people have been saying that there is no difference between amps and dacs *once they past a threshhold of quality* - no one is saying bargain basement audio components are not noticably worth than those you pay a bit more for - and generally those inside computers are just that. To make matters worse they often pick up a lot of noise and interference from the internals of the computer too.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]What is being debated here is not whether the DAC section in a low cost but decent quality piece of gear like this will be audibly different to the DAC in a £1k + "boutique audiphile" DAC.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]The point is that, as has been said over and over again, there is an upper roof for how good a DAC can be - if it can produce a noise free line out signal which is faithful to the recording - flat within the audible range - then that is as good as it can possibly be.[/size]
   
  You can have a DAC which has a badly designed circuit with corners cut and sounds _innacurate...._
   
  [size=x-small].... but you can't get _more_ accurate one you have reached the point where it is audibly accurate. [/size]
   
  [size=x-small]If the signal is audibly perfect at £130 spent - you are going to gain nothing by adding a grand.[/size]
   
  [size=x-small]It doesn't matter if you can measure differences, if you can't hear them then we are into trees falling in forests territory.[/size]


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





eddiee said:


> [size=x-small]Nobody is going to deny an external soundcard or dac and amp is going to improve soundquality from the one that comes inside your computer. Everybody on this thread, on both sides, uses an external DAC and Amp as far as I know.[/size]
> 
> [size=x-small]Notice throughout this thread people have been saying that there is no difference between amps and dacs *once they past a threshhold of quality* - no one is saying bargain basement audio components are not noticably worth than those you pay a bit more for - and generally those inside computers are just that. To make matters worse they often pick up a lot of noise and interference from the internals of the computer too.[/size]
> 
> ...


 
  Well put, as always. I expect a lot of strawman responses, e.g. "I hear a difference", "People hear differently", et cetera.


----------



## powerlifter450

Even after sending mine back, I'm interested in what otehrs think of ths DAC. To me, no matter what headphones I used Sony xb300,700,beyerdynamic 770/80s, Ultrasone pro 900, or Denon d5k, It sounded like there was too much treble and the bass rolled off. It put the crimp on the bass without a doubt. I'm waiting on my Musiland md-10 to come in , Twice the price but very nice.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Quote: 





> It sounded like there was too much treble and the bass rolled off.


 
   
  One possible explanation for why you think that is because you have been habituated to the sound of 'audiophile' quality gear. The manufacturers tend to roll of the high frequencies to get a 'smoother' sound. They do the same with the bass but compensate by introducing a 'bump' to give the impression of low bass that either doesn't exist or is heavily rolled off to avoid problems. Works too. Gives a nice sound if only one of your components does it.
   
  EMU kit is primarily geared towards the DJ and Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) market. Those users want flat and accurate. 
   
  Took me a while to get used to a clean, flat sound but now I would never go back. Anyway I can always get an 'audiophile' sound if I want on poor quality recordings by using EQ, parametric filtering or other plug ins but you can never get flat from audiophile grade gear. 
   
  Give it a try for a bit longer. Most people come round after a while.


----------



## tlniec

Not to drift too far OT, but it's interesting to note that similar discussions take place in video circles.  But there, the focus tends to be on the source media more so than the playback equipment.  In a nutshell, one of the more frustrating things happening in the Blu-Ray disc world is movies being transferred (process of converting photochemical/film elements or Digital Intermediates to audio/video data that can be encoded on a disc) with Digital Noise Reduction.  This process, when used carelessly/incorrectly, destroys high-frequency video detail... but it gives a "smooth" or "clean" look that is pleasing to some.
   
  In those discussions, my argument is that the disc should be as faithful to the source as reasonably possible (including all that high-frequency stuff, like "noisy-looking" film grain) and DNR functions should be built into the playback/display device, defaulted to "off" but able to by toggled on by those who want it.  Kind of analagous to this, my opinion in audio is keep your source chain flat, and change your headphones to get differences in sonic character (or go for reasonably flat phones too, and spice things up/smooth them out/whatever via equalization or DSP effects).


----------



## johnanderson

I was wondering if anyone can offer any input. I am trying to decide between the E-mu 0204 or the uDAC-2. I want to drive my D2000 and W1000 out of my computer using one of these DAC/amp combos for now and pick up a dedicated amp later down the road. I havn't found alot of comparisons but from reading it seems some people think that the udac has an edge on the 0404. Obviously no comparisons on the 0204 yet since its still new.


----------



## Stephen_Ri

I have the same question. It seems that the 0204 DAC chip's specs are better, and it supports more sample rates than the uDAC2, but there's more to a DAC than just the chip.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> The "flavor" concept only really applies to equipment that is defective or designed poorly. Why should electronic equipment -- that measure the within tolerances so infinitesimal that no human (not even a naturally hypersensitive baby with superhuman hearing capabilities) could perceive -- sound any different?


 

 Where is the threshold of "designed poorly"? Internal sound cards? E-MU 0404 USB?
   
  Which measurements are you talking about? Frequency response? SNR? Slew rate?

  
  Quote: 





eddiee said:


> [size=x-small].... but you can't get _more_ accurate one you have reached the point where it is audibly accurate. [/size]
> [size=x-small]If the signal is audibly perfect at £130 spent - you are going to gain nothing by adding a grand.[/size]
> 
> [size=x-small]It doesn't matter if you can measure differences, if you can't hear them then we are into trees falling in forests territory.[/size]


 

 What if you can hear differences? How can something be proved "audibly perfect"?
   
  Quote:  





> I expect a lot of strawman responses, e.g. "I hear a difference", "People hear differently", et cetera.


 

 You may want to revisit the definition of "straw man." I'm debating your position, hence my arguments are not straw men. If I'm mischaracterizing your position, please set me straight.
   
  Quote: 





powerlifter450 said:


> Even after sending mine back, I'm interested in what otehrs think of ths DAC. To me, no matter what headphones I used Sony xb300,700,beyerdynamic 770/80s, Ultrasone pro 900, or Denon d5k, It sounded like there was too much treble and the bass rolled off. It put the crimp on the bass without a doubt. I'm waiting on my Musiland md-10 to come in , Twice the price but very nice.


 
   
  The built-in headphones amplifiers on the E-MU units are somewhat anemic. Most people have described the headphone output as cold or rolled-off in the low end and my experience with the 0404 USB has been no different.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





cer said:


> Specs on the Emu page have been revised and it seems 0204 USB actually has UNBALANCED outputs (same as 0202 USB).


 

 Yikes... That's a significant strike against the 0204 for the studio crowd. Thanks for the update.


----------



## LFF

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> Yikes... That's a significant strike against the 0204 for the studio crowd. Thanks for the update.


 


 Indeed! That sucks. I wish they would have kept balanced outputs.


----------



## LFF

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> One possible explanation for why you think that is because you have been habituated to the sound of 'audiophile' quality gear. The manufacturers tend to roll of the high frequencies to get a 'smoother' sound. They do the same with the bass but compensate by introducing a 'bump' to give the impression of low bass that either doesn't exist or is heavily rolled off to avoid problems. Works too. Gives a nice sound if only one of your components does it.
> 
> EMU kit is primarily geared towards the DJ and Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) market. Those users want flat and accurate.
> 
> ...


 


  Quoted for truth!


----------



## powerlifter450

I'd have to buy it again to give it another chance. I just ordered a PS audio digital link 3 to take its place.


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





powerlifter450 said:


> I'd have to buy it again to give it another chance. I just ordered a PS audio digital link 3 to take its place.


 

 Trust your ears, if you thought it was anemic in the low end it probably was.  And anyone trying to convince you that "it" was right and your ears were wrong is foolish.  I have tried a few of the low priced pro audio wunderkind and many of them are anemic and do not have the proper foundation in the bass or the neutrality of really good sounding equipment.  
   
  I think you will be happy with your DL3 that is inbound.  It is one of the best sounding dacs under $1k and very musical.


----------



## evanft

>paying $800 for a DAC
   
  What is this I don't even.


----------



## cer

I have an Emu 0202 USB and its hp output is, well, "anemic" in the sense, that it's pretty much ruler flat even when driving a real load (I suspect its the same with 0204 or 0404 USB). RMAA FR graph looks almost the same when driving a pair of random 16 ohm Sony earbuds or 250 ohm DT880s.
  It's really a pity that the amp is just too weak to drive high impedance headphones to loud levels. With DT880s it's ok with loud music, but with quiet classical it's still somewhat too quiet even when the volume is maxed out. But rolled off bass? Not really. Just flat and "boring", when you're accustomed to something else - or have a pair of headphones that are lacking in bass. Based on my measurements with RMAA I can suspect that if a component has more bass with the same headphones compared to Emu, then it probably does have more bass - in the sense that it's FR representation when driving a real load is not as accurate.


----------



## dsnyder

Howdy,
   
  The Creative folks (at least in the US) are celebrating their 40th birthday, so if you buy an 0204 from them (by way of Amazon) with this code ("0204sale"), you can have it for $104.  Here's a link to their on-line shop:  http://us.creative.com/products/welcomenew.asp?category=237
   

   
  That's a lot of kit for $100, even if you just use it occasionally.  I spent nearly as much on my audiophile LAT International USB2 cable (which I love btw, so please don't be a hater).  LOL.  Enjoy.
   
  -- David


----------



## scompton

Quote: 





cer said:


> I have an Emu 0202 USB and its hp output is, well, "anemic" in the sense, that it's pretty much ruler flat even when driving a real load (I suspect its the same with 0204 or 0404 USB). RMAA FR graph looks almost the same when driving a pair of random 16 ohm Sony earbuds or 250 ohm DT880s.
> It's really a pity that the amp is just too weak to drive high impedance headphones to loud levels. With DT880s it's ok with loud music, but with quiet classical it's still somewhat too quiet even when the volume is maxed out. But rolled off bass? Not really. Just flat and "boring", when you're accustomed to something else - or have a pair of headphones that are lacking in bass. Based on my measurements with RMAA I can suspect that if a component has more bass with the same headphones compared to Emu, then it probably does have more bass - in the sense that it's FR representation when driving a real load is not as accurate.


 
   
  I have the 0404 USB and if it doesn't drive any headphone to sufficient volume for you, you're listening too loud.  It has no problems with my 600 ohm AKGs with the volume around 10 o'clock.


----------



## BlackbeardBen

Quote: 





dsnyder said:


> Howdy,
> 
> The Creative folks (at least in the US) are celebrating their 40th birthday, so if you buy an 0204 from them (by way of Amazon) with this code ("0204sale"), you can have it for $104.  Here's a link to their on-line shop:  http://us.creative.com/products/welcomenew.asp?category=237
> 
> ...


 

 lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But seriously, thanks for the link.  That's awesome.  40% off on all other E-MU stuff too.  I might have to get the 0404 when it gets back in stock...


----------



## cer

0404 USB has 20 mW headphone output, 0202 USB 16 mW.


----------



## windcar

I have just received 1 of these EMU 0204 and the SQ is superior to the X-Fi HD usb i owned. 
  There is 1 problem though, the box says it comes with a ASIO driver but after installing the drivers from the CD provided on my Win 7, no ASIO device turned up on the playback device. I only see a directsound speaker Emu 0204 device available.
   
  So how do i get ASIO to work with this device?


----------



## windcar

Also one more thing.
  When i set this device as my default sound card, there always seems to be a slight jitter initially whenever the song begins to play.
  Even when the windows generate the default tone whenever the folder in the window exploer is click, the sound has a jitter in it too.
  Anyone experience this with thier Emu 0204?


----------



## dsnyder

Hello,
  
  Quote: 





windcar said:


> I have just received 1 of these EMU 0204 and the SQ is superior to the X-Fi HD usb i owned.
> There is 1 problem though, the box says it comes with a ASIO driver but after installing the drivers from the CD provided on my Win 7, no ASIO device turned up on the playback device. I only see a directsound speaker Emu 0204 device available.
> 
> So how do i get ASIO to work with this device?


 
   
  Well, you need a media player application with ASIO support.  There are optional ASIO plugins for both foobar2000 and Mediamonkey.  Probably J.River, XXHighend, and other commercial players come with ASIO support "out of the box."
   
  You won't be able to use ASIO (AFAIK) with Windows Media Player, Quicktime Player, or even for default Windows Sound.  In fact, for best performance when listening to music, you probably don't want the E-MU to be your default Windows audio device.  Here's a link on the Computer Audiophile site with lots of tips on how to setup and tweak Windows 7 for best sound:
   
     http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Windows-7-Audio-J-River-Media-Center-14-Configuration
   
  Hope this helps!
   
  -- David


----------



## abhisheknath

Quote: 





windcar said:


> Also one more thing.
> When i set this device as my default sound card, there always seems to be a slight jitter initially whenever the song begins to play.
> Even when the windows generate the default tone whenever the folder in the window exploer is click, the sound has a jitter in it too.
> Anyone experience this with thier Emu 0204?


 
   
  I actually experienced something similar with my Emu 0202. It turned out that the device was being affected by a high DPC latency. Just google the problem and you will see that many have suffered from this.


----------



## windcar

thank you for all your replies. Now i can select the ASIO under the foobar and no longer needs ASIO4ALL.
  As for the initial jitter sound, i found that it has something to do with the internal crystal initialization. If you go to the EMU USB audio application and under sample rate: if the drop down list is not highlighted in grey, it means that the crystal is released from its operation. When you first play a sound, there is some initialization going in there which cause the jitter. However, if you do not release the crystal (e.g., pause music in windows media player and then play any sound), there will be no jitter at all, although it is unclear if doing this will heat up the crystal unnecessarily


----------



## abhisheknath

Quote: 





windcar said:


> thank you for all your replies. Now i can select the ASIO under the foobar and no longer needs ASIO4ALL.
> As for the initial jitter sound, i found that it has something to do with the internal crystal initialization. If you go to the EMU USB audio application and under sample rate: if the drop down list is not highlighted in grey, it means that the crystal is released from its operation. When you first play a sound, there is some initialization going in there which cause the jitter. However, if you do not release the crystal (e.g., pause music in windows media player and then play any sound), there will be no jitter at all, although it is unclear if doing this will heat up the crystal unnecessarily


 

 Ah interesting. I'll have to check what my 0202 is set at.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Just a note that if you do use ASIO with USB audio interfaces like these, sound will be limited to one program/stream. For example, listening with ASIO in Foobar means that you won't be able to hear DirectSound audio in your browser. If you need to hear audio from multiple programs while you're listening to music, set your music playback program's output to DirectSound.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Quote: 





> Just a note that if you do use ASIO with USB audio interfaces like these, sound will be limited to one program/stream.


 
   
  Not to start a row or anything but I don't think statement is correct. I don't have an EMU but do own a similar (MOTU Ultralite) device. It is listed as a single driver but you can map to any output you like (single or pair) in my implementation.
   
  Anyway even if it is true it's not really a problem - more an advantage.
   
  What i do is direct foobar to one output pair and stuff that isn't easily re assignable (like browser) to another. Repeat. So you could do this on the 0204 I think. If foobar is your primary high quality audio source then send the output from exclusively that to Main Outs 1 & 2. Direct everything else to the secondary outputs. That way you can use the device itself to either keep the different sources separate or mix them together. It's a major selling point - certainly not a problem.


----------



## windcar

I correct my earlier statement. After much AB/X I did not find any SQ difference between X-fi HD and this unit. I also did not find any small hissing sound when playing a silent file from my X-Fi HD with volume turned up to maximum too. I use Sox Resample to 96khz when using the X-fi HD since it does not support the native 44.1Khz playback.
  Any perceivable difference initally must be placebo.


----------



## windcar

I have found a problem with my unit, the right side seems to be louder than the left side by 10-20%.
  Playing a pink noise file and slowly turning up the knob seems to reveal this problem. This problem is not present in all my other DACs.
  sucks this might be a faulty product design afterall.


----------



## windcar

ok I found that the volume difference is only when the headphone amp is set to very low volume, <= 8.30oclock. At 9oclock, the sound volume is even out, even when using software player to lower the volume.
  definitely a design problem going on in there somewhere.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> Not to start a row or anything but I don't think statement is correct. I don't have an EMU but do own a similar (MOTU Ultralite) device. It is listed as a single driver but you can map to any output you like (single or pair) in my implementation.
> 
> Anyway even if it is true it's not really a problem - more an advantage.
> 
> What i do is direct foobar to one output pair and stuff that isn't easily re assignable (like browser) to another. Repeat. So you could do this on the 0204 I think. If foobar is your primary high quality audio source then send the output from exclusively that to Main Outs 1 & 2. Direct everything else to the secondary outputs. That way you can use the device itself to either keep the different sources separate or mix them together. It's a major selling point - certainly not a problem.


 

 You're right, the way I phrased it was too general. Devices like your MOTU certainly have a lot of internal routing flexibility, but as far as I can tell, with the 0204, 0404, etc. the only listed output channels are the main channels (Analog OUT Left and Analog OUT Right) and the S/PDIF outputs. There are no secondary outputs to select; when ASIO is enabled it's more or less locked in. Contrast that with something like the 1212M, which has its own channels for ASIO and DirectSound and no problems with playing them both at the same time.
   
*windcar*, sure the problem isn't with your headphone amp's volume potentiometer? This is a common problem in pot design: channel imbalances in the lower range. Additionally, if you have to listen at such a low range, your headphone amp may be too powerful for your headphones.


----------



## scompton

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> . Additionally, if you have to listen at such a low range, your headphone amp may be too powerful for your headphones.


 

 That applies to almost every headphone amp I've tried.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





scompton said:


> That applies to almost every headphone amp I've tried.


 

 Time to build something or to have something custom-built, maybe? The last time I built a CMoy, I made it very low gain because I knew I'd be driving efficient headphones and wanted at least a 50% sweep of the volume knob. I'm sure the builders around here could whip up something with way better specs than that, or there might be commercial headphone amps out there with variable / multiple fixed gain settings.


----------



## Pauli

Quote: 





windcar said:


> thank you for all your replies. Now i can select the ASIO under the foobar and no longer needs ASIO4ALL.
> As for the initial jitter sound, i found that it has something to do with the internal crystal initialization. If you go to the EMU USB audio application and under sample rate: if the drop down list is not highlighted in grey, it means that the crystal is released from its operation. When you first play a sound, there is some initialization going in there which cause the jitter. However, if you do not release the crystal (e.g., pause music in windows media player and then play any sound), there will be no jitter at all, although it is unclear if doing this will heat up the crystal unnecessarily


 

 I have exactly the same "jitter"-problem with my unit (on both of my computers), which renders it quite useless at the moment. I tried to contact support but no reply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. If you find a solution it would be great if you could post it here! Otherwise I will return the thing...
  And for the different volume levels on the headphone output at low settings, the same here, must be due to the cheap potentiometer.


----------



## ccschua

heard 0406 is out soon. any idea what is the price like ?


----------



## evanft

So I just got the 0204. It works great and I set up the ASIO output in Foobar so now the E-MU gets the correct sample rate. I have a couple questions, though:
   
  1. Do I have to switch between 24 bit and 16 bit in the output devices menu any time I switch bit depth?
   
  2. The windows volume still changes the volume coming out of the 0204. Is that supposed to happen with ASIO?
   
  EDIT: Now it gives me this error:
   
  "Unrecoverable playback error: The ASIO device does not support specified sample rate (44100Hz); please configure resampler appropriately"
   
  It won't play anything at 16 bit/44.1 khz anymore. When I try, it selects 88.2 khz and gives me an error. It won't let me select 16 bit/44.1 in the sound devices section of the control panel, either. I can get 44.1 khz material to play if I change the ASIO settings to 24 bit. What?


----------



## evanft

I'm bumping this thread in case anyone else needed help.
   
  I tried reinstalling the device driver and software, but that did not fix my problem. So after sending Creative an email, I decided to give ASIO4ALL a try.
   
  It may be placebo, but I think using ASIO4ALL gives me better sound than using the included ASIO driver when playing back 16/44.1 material. Everything sounds less congested and more open. But again, that could be placebo, so take it with a massive grain of salt. 
   
  What certainly isn't caused by placebo is the fact that my laptop runs a *full 15°C cooler* when using ASIO4ALL instead of the E-MU's included ASIO driver. Yeah, I know. I think what's happening is that the Foobar is converting 16 bit to 24 bit when I use the E-MU driver, which obviously requires processing power. Since ASIO4ALL isn't doing that, it doesn't require the extra processing power.
   
  So there ya go. Anyone who has this problem should give ASIO4ALL a shot.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





evanft said:


> It may be placebo, but I think using ASIO4ALL gives me better sound than using the included ASIO driver when playing back 16/44.1 material. Everything sounds less congested and more open. But again, that could be placebo, so take it with a massive grain of salt.


 

 Many people don't seem to know that ASIO4ALL is a *wrapper*. Right, it wraps an ASIO interface around the windows driver that is installed for your soundcard.


----------



## evanft

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Many people don't seem to know that ASIO4ALL is a *wrapper*. Right, it wraps an ASIO interface around the windows driver that is installed for your soundcard.


 
  THEN WHAT THE HELL KIND OF SORCERY IS GOING ON HERE?!?!
   
  Is the A4A wrapper interacting with the driver for the 0204 and simply correcting the fact that it doesn't recognize that 0204 can do 16/44.1, or is it interacting with the driver for the built-in sound. I would guess it's the former, since I'm pretty sure the E-MU needs its own driver to function.
   
  So, assuming I'm not just fooling myself, any difference in sound would be due to the lack of 16 bit to 24 bit conversion?


----------



## windcar

Quote: 





evanft said:


> I'm bumping this thread in case anyone else needed help.
> 
> I tried reinstalling the device driver and software, but that did not fix my problem. So after sending Creative an email, I decided to give ASIO4ALL a try.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Amazing how do you check it is 15C cooler?????????? running the default ASIO driver feels pretty cool on my hand.
  You can go to preference->ASIO->remove the ASIO and then re-add EMU's ASIO. I find that I need to do that everytime i start foobar. But yeah if you are using ASIO4ALL there is no need to do that.


----------



## xnor

Windows provides a default usb sound driver that works with literally any usb audio interface, but it's limited to 16 bit and I think up to 48 kHz only.
   
  If you don't have installed the manufacturer's drivers then asio4all uses this default driver that comes with Windows.


----------



## thuantran

No the limit of Windows USB audio driver is 24bit/96KHz.


----------



## xnor

You're right, with some chips (that require programming / custom firmware) the Windows driver supports higher bit and sample rates out of the box.
   
  What usb streaming controllers are used in the e-mu products?


----------



## evanft

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Windows provides a default usb sound driver that works with literally any usb audio interface, but it's limited to 16 bit and I think up to 48 kHz only.
> 
> If you don't have installed the manufacturer's drivers then asio4all uses this default driver that comes with Windows.


 

 So, if I have the E-MU's driver installed, does ASIO4ALL interact with that?


----------



## xnor

It wraps whatever Windows device driver it can find. Dunno if the e-mu drivers are just wrappers too, but I doubt it. So yes, I think so.
   
  Fyi, the sample size (16/24/32 bit) conversion should not be noticeable in terms of cpu temperature. A drop of 15°C sounds like something was bugged and used up a lot of cpu time. Have you looked at the cpu usage (in task manager) during playback and also which process caused it?


----------



## evanft

Quote: 





xnor said:


> It wraps whatever Windows device driver it can find. Dunno if the e-mu drivers are just wrappers too, but I doubt it. So yes, I think so.
> 
> Fyi, the sample size (16/24/32 bit) conversion should not be noticeable in terms of cpu temperature. A drop of 15°C sounds like something was bugged and used up a lot of cpu time. Have you looked at the cpu usage (in task manager) during playback and also which process caused it?


 


  I actually can't get it to replicate the result now. It probably was just a bug.


----------



## Roller

E-MU drivers are overall rather solid, and with true ASIO support, no wrappers there.
   
  Comparatively, sample rate has more weight on CPU usage than bit depth. But like xnor said, that temp drop was too significant to be related with sample rate changes.


----------



## Insighter

I have read in one of the documents on E-MU site (good approach to design): "E-MU USB products have become highly regarded in the music listening community for their accurate and uncolored audio reproduction. We went a little crazy on this product and used premium-quality, digital-to-analog converters normally reserved for thousand dollar systems. Then we went even further and completely redesigned the signal path to wring every last bit of performance from the A-D and D-A converters. The results are simply stunning. The sound and speci- fications of this little interface literally “blows the doors off” many audiophile interfaces and headphone preamps costing many times more."
   
  Duplicate. Sorry, didn't see it on first page


----------



## Insighter

It's about 0204


----------



## konoyaro

The spec lists this as only supporting Intel Macs. Does anyone know if it's possible to use the 0204 with a PPC Mac?


----------



## sonci

evanft said:


> So I just got the 0204. It works great and I set up the ASIO output in Foobar so now the E-MU gets the correct sample rate. I have a couple questions, though:
> 
> 1. Do I have to switch between 24 bit and 16 bit in the output devices menu any time I switch bit depth?
> 
> ...




Strange, usually when I select asio output in foobar the 24-16bit option is grayed out,
only the dither option is selectable, in fact when you play asio you play 16 bit as 16 bit and 24 as 24
Theres smth wrong with emu asio driver or even your version of foobar..


----------



## DKaz

How would you compare this to the original uDac?  I just bought 1964 customs and am looking for a decent upgrade DAC / AMP under $200.


----------



## konoyaro

So to answer my own question, looks like the 0204 won't run on a G5 PPC running 10.5.8. Although EMU USB software installs and launches without complaint and it even shows that a device is connected, it's not being recognized in Audio MIDI setup.
   
  Pity. I was hoping that Core Audio / 10.5.8 support was going to get me by.


----------



## aperture

i see that there's an dec 2010 driver for the emu 0204 USB...
  can we use the this driver for the emu 0202 USB, 0404 USB and tracker pre?
  i believe 0202, 0404 and tracker pre share the same drivers.. thanks..


----------



## Citan

I apologize if this is a silly question, but will I be able to control the speaker volume with the EMU-0204?  I ask because the volume knob on the monitors Im getting is on the rear of the speaker and I would really like an easy was to adjust the volume on the fly.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote: 





citan said:


> I apologize if this is a silly question, but will I be able to control the speaker volume with the EMU-0204?  I ask because the volume knob on the monitors Im getting is on the rear of the speaker and I would really like an easy was to adjust the volume on the fly.


 
  No, unfortunately the E-MU 0404 USB is the only one of their interfaces with a Main Output volume pot.


----------



## Citan

Thanks for the reply!  Why is it so difficult to find a decent dac with a volume knob that controls the speakers instead of the headphone or even both with a switch or something (around $200)!?
  The search continues...


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





citan said:


> Thanks for the reply!  Why is it so difficult to find a decent dac with a volume knob that controls the speakers instead of the headphone or even both with a switch or something (around $200)!?
> The search continues...


 

 Look at the Audinst MX1
   
  http://www.audinst.com/en/bbs/board.php?bo_table=HUDmx1&wr_id=5


----------



## Citan

Damn thats almost exactly what I need, but I would much rather have an optical or s/pdif in.  Still, looks really good, thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Very good question. If the 1616M had a volume pot, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat. The problem with pots (analog pots, at least, like the one the 0404 USB has) is that they eventually get dust in them and become scratchy.


----------



## Ishcabible

To anyone considering this, audiotopia's selling it for $87 shipped. I caved and bought one. I was about to buy it last night for $129 too. So glad I waited.


----------



## Smallville

Damn it. I saw it for around $95 on Amazon yesterday and hesitated to get it. Now it's back at $120 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





ishcabible said:


> To anyone considering this, audiotopia's selling it for $87 shipped. I caved and bought one. I was about to buy it last night for $129 too. So glad I waited.


----------



## Haridic

How does the E MU 0204 compare with the HRT Music Streamer II?


----------



## Impulsive

Grabbed one for myself too.
  Perfect price, plus the fact that i simply cant buy it here in my country (no shops are selling it)
  Shipping costs more, i negotiated with them USPS for 44 USD.
  Was shipped in friday, lets see when it will arrive.


----------



## Ishcabible

Got mine today. The amp is pretty meh. It's bright, not too powerful, but detailed. Bass has a bit of a roll-off, and mids are a touch accentuated. My Realistic Pro 50's (Kinda like Sextetts, but not? They have the passive radiators, but people seem to like these as much or more than the Sextetts.) appreciate the tiny bit of extra power compared to laptop output, but my Harman Kardon HK430 eats this up for breakfast, which probably isn't a fair comparison. If anyone has questions, I'll be able to answer them.


----------



## Impulsive

thanks mate.
  bottom outputs 2 x 1/4" mono arent amplified via internal amp am i right?
  Because i plan to use it with tube amp and dunno how good is build-in amp, i think better output would give direct output right from the circuit, not travelling via integrated amp.


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





impulsive said:


> thanks mate.
> bottom outputs 2 x 1/4" mono arent amplified via internal amp am i right?
> Because i plan to use it with tube amp and dunno how good is build-in amp, i think better output would give direct output right from the circuit, not travelling via integrated amp.


 

 Yup, they're aren't powered. Just get 1/4-->RCA adapters and you're set.


----------



## Impulsive

just as i thought.
  thankie


----------



## Impulsive

so i just received my 0204
  Device is working nice.
  however i have questions.
  what do i need to do to use higher sample rates?
  i just installed everything from CD and in application i set sample rate to 192kHz. What does it actually mean? max. sample rate? or if i set 192 and i play 44 kHz files, will it convert to 192? Because thats useless.
  Or how to configure it?
  I just played at it inception soundtrack at 96kHz and foobar is showing 96 kHz...
   
  do i need anything else set in Foobar?
  you were talking about ASIO, it's some kind of driver?
  I guess it is included at CD and i probably have it already installed.
   
  check also this screnshot.
  notice foobar sample rate and locked e-mu sample rate.
  How to understand this?

   
  EDIT. hm after reboot i cant restore creative control panel from taskbar. if i click it, icon appears but it wont shop up window.
   
  when i try to install windows 7 driver beta, i get error
  i am using windows 7 pro 64 bit
   

   
  my impressions: it probably needs to be properly configured with foobar because i didnt found sound better than output from my onboard.
  guess i am doing something wrong. 
   
  I also hear little pop everytime i pause / resume music.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Open foobar2000 preferences (Ctrl+P) and look at Playback -> Output. If it is set to DS (DirectSound), all audio will be resampled to the device's current sampling rate, usually 44.1 kHz, though it looks like you may have manually changed it to 48.0 kHz beforehand. You can set it to other sampling rates when the device sync is unlocked. As you correctly guessed, setting the sampling rate in the E-MU Control Panel simply resamples, so you will need the ASIO component for fb2k to tell your audio device when to properly change sampling rates. Here it is:
   
  http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio
   
  Unzip the DLL into your foobar2000\components directory, restart fb2k, and select the new ASIO output option. You may need to first configure the device in Playback -> Output -> ASIO Virtual Devices. Good luck!
   
  Also note that when using ASIO with a USB interface like this one, only one source at a time can play. If fb2k is playing audio through ASIO, you will not get DS audio from other programs like your web browser, etc.


----------



## Impulsive

Hello.
  Thanks for helping me!
  so now i have installed ASIO from your link and set it.
  here it is
   
  this is config, it's default, but you said i may need to configure it..but i do not know how and what to change, and why.

   
  and here is set audio output as ASIO is it OK?
  Anything else i need to do?
   

   
  by the way, doesnt matter, which sampling rate i choose in control panel, it auto resets and lock to 44.1 KHz
  Why?
   

   
  EDIT
   
  It actually looks like it's working correctly.
  i just played 96 kHz file and it auto set to 96kHz locked
   

   
  does that mean that all is set? or do i need to set anything else?
  because i dont feel like hearing better, higher quality sound.
  and all music i play is either 44.1 kHz FLAC or 96 kHz FLAC


----------



## Impulsive

this is weird.
  i tried same music using asio and not using it, and i do not hear any audible difference.
  what is worse, is, that i hear no audible difference between my integrated laptop sound card and emu..
  i am deaf or what the heck?
  what i am doing wrong?
  Current serup is E-mu 0204 > DT 880
  There was no WOW effect when i firstly played music via it.
  It was ....exactly as via laptop sound card.
  What the....


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





impulsive said:


> this is weird.
> i tried same music using asio and not using it, and i do not hear any audible difference.
> what is worse, is, that i hear no audible difference between my integrated laptop sound card and emu..
> i am deaf or what the heck?
> ...


 


 Just keep listening. I immediately heard the difference. It's brighter, more detailed, more powerful, (and other superlatives) than the sound card. Although the Beyer will still be underamped with the 0204...the 0204 hates my Sextetts.


----------



## Impulsive

thanks for reply!
  but it makes me wonder...you say that just keep listening, but you also said you heard the difference immediately.
  it makes me wonder if there is some kind of burn-in but probably isnt...
  also, i see your point, i already thought that 600 ohm beyers are suffering on this soundcard output, but can that affect details and clarity?
  i know too that amplification isnt only about volume, but i just want to say that i listen to them at cca 80-90% of volume so regarding volume it's ok..but i think they definitely need more voltage to sound good..
  just to clarify, i have never had an amp, i dont know what can i expect from it and how does amp affect details, soundstage and clarity.
  Some more explanation from you would be great 
   
  BTW i wont be selling it what-so-ever because i need 2 x RCA output to connect tube amp which is the last part missing in my config and it will come as soon as i will have enough of money.


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





impulsive said:


> thanks for reply!
> but it makes me wonder...you say that just keep listening, but you also said you heard the difference immediately.
> it makes me wonder if there is some kind of burn-in but probably isnt...
> also, i see your point, i already thought that 600 ohm beyers are suffering on this soundcard output, but can that affect details and clarity?
> ...


 


  Well, listen until you can hear the difference. It differs from person to person. I heard the difference immediately, but that's because I had a general idea on what the EMU would sound like. It may be placebo, but it was a 30% increase in sound quality compared to my soundcard in details and realism, so I doubt it's placebo.
   
  Yes, overall clarity is affected by lack of power. Have you ever been to a live concert? Amping brings you closer to that. It won't exactly get you there (it's what we're all looking for) but added power gets you closer.
   
  I need to put the volume to 90% for my Sextetts too. There simply isn't enough power in the EMU to power any headphones that are meant for home use other than the sensitive ones like the Denons and such. I can get volume, but when I connect my headphones to my vintage receiver, the 0204 shows where it lacks. I don't have a DT880, but I can tell they need more power.


----------



## Impulsive

thanks for clarifying.
  You know how it is...it doesn't matter, how many threads, user experiences i read..i only have teoretical knowledge.
  One listening can overcome that anytime.
  Another thing is that when you know what you are looking for like you.
  I am definitely looking forward to the amp to finally drive these cans properly and i believe sound will change.
   
  I also must say interesting thing.
  In my frustration, i was googling about ASIO and I came across to ASIO4ALL v2
  i said to myself, I have nothing to loose, lets try it.
  But the more was i surprised, when I heard what ASIO4ALL v2 driver made to this sound!
  I finally started to hear details, which i never heard before, soundstage grew bigger and musical instruments became more separated, i can now hear them more cleaner, i can concentrate on one and keeps listening just to it.
  Before this driver it wasnt bad, but now it is much cleaner.
  I still cant believe what i am hearing!
  Finally it wasn't all in vain!
   
  I was just fast & furious, as i am, lol


----------



## Ishcabible

That's great to hear!


----------



## Impulsive

Absolutely.
  I have no hope in another ASIO driver to make such a difference.
  But it did!
   
  So, another happy 0204 user :-D


----------



## infinitesymphony

If ASIO4All is working properly it should sound identical to the built-in ASIO driver because they both should be outputting bit-perfect audio; if you hear a difference between the two, something is wrong. Additionally, ASIO4All is a wrapper that was designed for sound cards that did not have built-in ASIO drivers. The built-in driver is preferred because it is designed for the device. In any case, the headphone amp sections built into E-MU's USB devices are in no way capable of handling high-impedance loads like your 600-ohm DT 880s. That's your current barrier to good sound quality.


----------



## xnor

^ High-impedance loads are *easier *to drive than low-impedance ones. Volume shouldn't be a problem either with the E-MU, so I don't think there's a barrier.


----------



## Impulsive

well, i dont see any barrier either.
  Now it is playing sound which i am satisfied with, and new amp soon to come 
  so there is really no problem


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





xnor said:


> ^ High-impedance loads are *easier *to drive than low-impedance ones. Volume shouldn't be a problem either with the E-MU, so I don't think there's a barrier.


 


  Actually, my main gripe for the EMU is that for even 50ohm loads with decent sensitivity (If I have this impedance thing right, it's easier to coax _volume_ from low impedance loads, but harder to properly drive) need to be at 1 o'clock for my listening levels (which are kind of high admittedly). 600ohm loads need to be at 3 o'clock. I don't have his Beyers, so I can only speak for myself, but my AKG's start to show some distortion at 3.


----------



## infinitesymphony

16 mW @ 22 ohms seems awfully low for 600-ohm headphones. My impression of the headphone section on the 0404 USB (which is rated slightly higher at 20 mW @ 22 ohms) is that the sound quality is nothing special, unlike the main outputs. It seems more like a practical inclusion than a major feature of the device.


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





infinitesymphony said:


> 16 mW @ 22 ohms seems awfully low for 600-ohm headphones. My impression of the headphone section on the 0404 USB (which is rated slightly higher at 20 mW @ 22 ohms) is that the sound quality is nothing special, unlike the main outputs. It seems more like a practical inclusion than a major feature of the device.


 


  I'm pretty sure that was EMU's goal was. It's a $130 audio interface; they won't put too much effort in the headphone out. I mostly use it for its DAC, which is decent.


----------



## evanft

Quote: 





impulsive said:


> this is weird.
> i tried same music using asio and not using it, and i do not hear any audible difference.
> what is worse, is, that i hear no audible difference between my integrated laptop sound card and emu..
> i am deaf or what the heck?
> ...


 

 The difference in DAC's is highly, highly overrated, but the 0204 is not made for the Beyers. A dedicated amp is required for those.


----------



## Impulsive

yeah i know.
  Amp is on the way.


----------



## erod

Hello everyone. I was looking for a DAC/amp combo that woould allow me to connect headphones and speakers at the same time. I was also looking for a good price. This E-MU unit seems like a perfect fit.I just have some questions that maybe you can answer.
   
  Will the headphone amp be enough to drive Denon D2000 or D5000?
   
  Will the amp be powerful enough to drive passive bookshelf speakers?
   
  If not, will it work well with active bookshelf speakers?
   
  If anybody has any suggestions on other DAC/amps for this purpose, I would love to hear them.


----------



## Ishcabible

It doesn't power passive speakers. I don't have active speakers, but I don't see why it wouldn't work well with them.
   
  And enough is a relative term. You'll get more than enough volume, but the amp section in this is kind of an after thought. It's really not much better than onboard.


----------



## erod

Ok, thanks for answering. But now I have another question.
   
  I thought the amp's intended purpose was to provide adequate current for proper volume.
   
  So i guess the question is, what would be the benefit of using E-MU as DAC only and getting a different amp?
   
  What does another, possibly more expensive amp offer that this unit doesn't?
   
  I thought the improvement in sound quality came primarily from the DAC.


----------



## Ishcabible

Voltage. I have no idea how power hungry your headphones are, but if they aren't given enough power, they lack in general finesse. As far as DACs go, I'm not the one to talk to about that.


----------



## infinitesymphony

erod, the E-MU 0204 USB does not have any volume control for the main outputs, nor any speaker-level outputs, so in that sense it is like any other DAC. You will need volume control (preamplification) and power (power amplification) after the audio interface in order to make it work with passive speakers. Active speakers have built-in power amplifiers but they will still need a volume knob. If you need to drive passive speakers and power headphones you may want to look at home theater receivers (multi-channel, multi-input) or integrated amplifiers (audio only). You could split up the system in a number of ways, really.
   
  Edit: Though I guess you could control volume through software. Too scary for me.


----------



## erod

Thanks for the answers. I suppose I'm looking for something like the NuForce Icon HDP in terms of functionality, but at a better price.
   
  There must be a way of coupling the E-MU with a speaker amplifier that would give me the same functionality at a lower price.
   
  I'm sure the headphone amp in the E-MU will be enough for me, as I intend to use Denon D2000 or D5000.
   
  So another question arises. Is there a decent, well-priced speaker amplifier that I can use in conjuction with the E-MU to at least control volume on active speakers?


----------



## Ishcabible

Quote: 





erod said:


> Thanks for the answers. I suppose I'm looking for something like the NuForce Icon HDP in terms of functionality, but at a better price.
> 
> There must be a way of coupling the E-MU with a speaker amplifier that would give me the same functionality at a lower price.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Oh, you can totally connect an amp to the 0204. I have a receiver connected to the 0204 and use the EMU as a DAC.
   
  If you're looking for amp cheap amp suggestions, get either a T-Amp or a vintage receiver. (There's a huge thread about them)


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

In the olden days your integrated amplifier or receiver performed two functions.
   
  First it connected and drove your loudspeakers/headphones.
   
  It also acted as a kind of switch. You connected and sometimes balanced all your various sources (TT, CD, radio etc) and maybe a tape monitor. Then used the amp controls to switch between them.
   
  Since nowadays your audio interface (DAC/ADC) box performs all the switching (and more, much more) it makes the most sense to buy active speakers. This is one of the main drivers behind the current popularity of self powered desktop monitors.
   
  So if you don't already own a pair of speakers you really like then you should look at active sysems first.
   
  Otherwise, if you do need separate amplification, don't sweat it. You should get a clean, flat signal out of anything on the market. I'd probably choose something from Samson because I've been impressed by the cost:quality relationship you get from semi-pro audio but I also own a early 9Ts era japanese receiver and it's still going strong.
   
  Most important though. I'd get the EM-U first and have a mess about with it before you commit to spending even more dosh. You may be surprised at how it changes your way of thinking and discover a load of interesting possibilities you didn't know existed. So you will want something different to what you think you want now. If you get me?


----------



## erod

Yes, i get it. Thanks for the answers and suggestions. E-MU will most likely be a purchase. It's definitely priced right.
   
  As far as amps, I see there are many choices. I recently read a reviw on the Dayens Ampino and it seemed good for the money, especially since it can drive big audiphile speakers. That will most likely be my long term path. But for now, I guess I'll be fine with small active speakers.


----------



## mgiammarco

Hello,
  can someone give me more info about jitter and usb interface? I know that 0404 interface is fully asynchronous. I hope 0204 is async too!


----------



## Garage1217

Some test results on the unit. http://www.virtins.com/doc/D1007/D1007.shtml
   
  I think many people are overlooking what this device really is capable of, especially with its measurements. Everyone is looking for it to be an amp, when they should be looking at it as a very high end, affordable external USB soundcard / source for your amp. In this aspect, the 0204 kicks some major bang for the buck tail. If you make the right offer on ebay... you can get them for $110 shipped hehe.


----------



## LepakVT

So I'm in the market for a <$200 USB DAC, would the 0204 be an upgrade over the FiiO E7? Thanks! I only need it for USB, no need for coax/optical.
   
  And reading the post above mine, it looks quite promising! I will continue using my FiiO E9 as the headphone amp, but I am looking for the DAC upgrade


----------



## ounwx

I stumbled upon this unit tonight while searching for an external DAC/amp suitable for my needs. I'd be using it as a source for the following:

 1. Grado SR80i's
 2. Klipsch B2 bookshelf speakers powered via a T-amp (with line-in)

 Thus far, this seems to be the cheapest DAC I've come upon that would allow simultaneous output to both devices. The uDac 2 and Fiio E7 both have mixed reviews and compromises that have steered me away, while the 0204 USB looks more down my alley. I have a few questions, though, and would appreciate any help from current and previous owners.

 1. Are proprietary drivers required, or is the unit plug-n-play? If required, how obtrusive and/or finicky are the drivers in Win7 64?

 2. What's the latest on the jitter problems discussed earlier in the thread? Have drivers fixed these issues? Will I need some type of fancy-schmancy $150 USB cable to circumvent them?

 3. Are the back outputs unaffected by the volume knob? (I want this to be the case, as I only need a DAC, not a preamp).

 4. Is the headphone amp well-suited for low-impedance cans like Grados?

 5. On the off chance anyone has experience with both, how does the 0204 compare with the Maverick TubeMagic D1? It's the only other all-in-one type box I've come upon for $200 or less, and it clearly has some advantages (S/PDIF input in particular), but I may as well save the 75 clams if everything else is fairly equal.


----------



## Reticuli2

Are the outputs balanced or unbalanced?  The manual says early in it that they're balanced, and then at the end says they're balanced.  Anyone tested the minus part with a TRS to dual TS or RCA to check that the minus is sending an inverted signal?
   
  If it's not balanced, what are the alternative products to this one that are?


----------



## Reticuli2

Not balanced.  Dang!  And the inputs are inferior to the ones on the 1212M and the Tracker.  Well, it's on its way from Amazon.  I can always refuse it.
   
  Do the main outputs actually put out a 6.7V signal at max or are they just a pro nominal 1.25V like the 1212M?  I'm getting an O2 amp and it may be worthwhile if it's that high to get its gains set at 0 and 5.


----------



## cer

6,7dBV=2,16VRMS


----------



## Reticuli2

Thanks.  So it looks like the low gain setting on the O2 will work perfect for me.
   
  Are there any 24/192 (or near) Windows 7 64 compatible interfaces in this price range with balanced outputs?  I'm surprised they don't even have SPDIF and MIDI on the 0204.  Add its lack of balanced outputs and inferior line inputs compared to Emu's prior products, and it's not that great a buy on paper.  If there's an alternative for a good price with better features, I can refuse the shipment from Amazon.
   
  Emu really needs to fix the specs section of that manual.


----------



## cer

It's safe to say, there aren't any comparable 24/192 interfaces with balanced outputs in 0204s price range. I own a 0202 USB, which has similar inputs and I have zero issues. It's true that the inputs aren't completely symmetrical, but that's not a problem in real world use. There is one real issue with 0202 or 0204 inputs - it's difficult to set input gain evenly for both channels because the knobs are pretty fiddly.
  Balanced outputs are useful only when you are dealing with very long cable runs. In typical home use unbalanced is perfectly fine.


----------



## gregorio

Reticuli2 said:
			
		

> . Not balanced.  Dang!  And the inputs are inferior to the ones on the 1212M and the Tracker.  Well, it's on its way from Amazon.  I can always refuse it.
> 
> Do the main outputs actually put out a 6.7V signal at max or are they just a pro nominal 1.25V like the 1212M?  I'm getting an O2 amp and it may be worthwhile if it's that high to get its gains set at 0 and 5.




Nominal (0VU) for most professional ADC/DACs is calibrated to: -18dBFS = +4dBu = 1.23v. Not max output = 1.25v. Depends on how they are calibrated though, could be anywhere from -12dBFS = +4dBu to -22dBFS = +4dBu (-18dBFS is the most common).

G


----------



## Reticuli2

At home I would be using them unbalanced, but I could definitely make use of better ASIO balanced outputs for djing than the ones in my dj interface/controllers.  Oh well.  It's sitting here.  I might as well open it and give it a go.  Bummer, though.  What I really want is a USB 1212m.  I don't need mic preamps.
  
  Quote: 





			
				cer said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It's safe to say, there aren't any comparable 24/192 interfaces with balanced outputs in 0204s price range. I own a 0202 USB, which has similar inputs and I have zero issues. It's true that the inputs aren't completely symmetrical, but that's not a problem in real world use. There is one real issue with 0202 or 0204 inputs - it's difficult to set input gain evenly for both channels because the knobs are pretty fiddly.
> Balanced outputs are useful only when you are dealing with very long cable runs. In typical home use unbalanced is perfectly fine.


----------



## Reticuli2

My 0204 has some serious jitter, faint tics, and dropout issues in both Winamp with ASIO and with the included Mixcraft LE.  The latter is hogging cpu time at 100% while playing and for a while after pausing.  Is this Emu not unburdening the CPU from sound duties?  I only have a Compaq CQ56 2ghz Celeron laptop with 4GB, but it's way beyond what the minimum requirements are on the 0204's box. My old P4 Northwood desktop with only 2GB never had those problems with the 1212m and 24/192 files, let alone files half that size.


----------



## Reticuli2

Heck, I don't even see how you control this thing.  It doesn't appear to come with a mixing console.  There's a "control panel" but all that's for is showing you whether it's in USB 1 or USB 2.0, and allows you to select the alternate set of ASIO channels for the headphoens (3/4).  How do I route sound and select the line ins to do a Rightmark test with it?  I managed to get some of dropouts reduced or completely eliminated by disabling a bunch of stuff and getting dcp latency down somewhat.  But Mixcraft is still wrecking havoc whenever I play anything with it.
   
  Edit: While there's no ASIO routing, you can use the Windows routing system for RMAA.  Channel balance is pretty dodgy on it below 9 o'clock and in most places it's a little higher than it should be.  My unit is imbalanced to the left by 0.2 full scale, the bass rolls off on that channel, and the phasing in the low end on the inputs is indeed inferior to the 1212m. 
   
  The headphone amp itself tests pretty good without a load.  I need to get some stuff to load it if want to test it for that, but the necessary odds and ends are in storage.  I can tell by ear that it doesn't like driving loads below 70-80ohms really loud past 2 o'clock, but seems fine when driving over 100ohms at any volume.  I suspect the headphone amp has no exaggerated attack if I feed it square waves.  Usually an afterthought jack will sound hard or exaggerated in attack or both.  This one seems to do none of that to my ear.  And while macro dynamics aren't great into low impedance on it, the microdynamics sound pretty good and it's very easy to pick out volume changes.  Dynamics are fine at higher ohms and it should be completely damped & kosher for anything over 150ohms if you can get it loud enough for a particular can.  It's too bad they didn't make it a zero ohm output, but if it just had a better pot on it it'd be a nice (though voltage-limited) jack for HD650s or the big Beyerdynamics.
   
  Just did some TrueRTA tests.  There's no way to tell whether it's the line/dac stage (prior to the headphone jack) or the inputs without a second soundcard input, but the squares do seem a bit slow in the rise and there's a touch of leading and trailing edge exaggeration.  There's some jaggies along the top, too.  I have to assume this is the input stage doing this.  Because, while I can maybe buy the slow part (the headphone jack does sound relaxed), I have a hard time believing the line out stage is producing the exaggerated edges.  The fact this is all present on both the line out and the headphone jack tells me it's either the line out stage or the input stage.  So the jack itself is definitely not adding to the slow rise or the jaggies.  My guess is it's all the line inputs, which would mean, other than the limited max voltage and the 22ohm impedance, the class A headphone amp is not a terrible one.


----------



## Impulsive

what kind of control?
  Just Install the drivers and software, connect emu with PC using USB, plug your headphones on the front jack (you can control volume on headphones directly using power switch and internally in PC)
  or connect rear 2 x 6.3mm mono jacks to your headphone amp using RCA cables (6.3mono jack to RCA needed) and then you will just select proper volume on PC and then control volume on headphone amp.
  In foobar I can select output device as EMU 0204 or EMU 0204 ASIO.
  As time passed, I didnt noticed real difference between ASIO and non-ASIO usage, quality-wise.
  I switched back to original ASIO driver abd then i stopped using it. No use because no hearable differences.


----------



## Reticuli2

I figured out how to do the necessary routng using Windows' own controls.  Hence the "edit" part.  You have to do that, otherwise RMAA just detects its own signal.  PatchMix was very powerful.  I know a lot of people found it confusing, but I think it's a jip to not have that or the effects patching on this thing.  I suspect its lack of sound processor is the reason it's not unloading duties from the CPU.


----------



## Telstar

Quote: 





			
				EddieE said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Hm you can no longer see the back now.
> 
> So what do we know about the AK4396, how would it rank with WM8740 and WM8741?


 
   
  It's a very good D/A chip. Worse on the noise profile but better in the HF (i cannot stand the brightness of wolfson dacs).
  AKM dacs are used for years in pro and semipro equipment of any price because they are very neutral in frequency response and good sounding.
  I still prefer the CS4938 to it, though (reason why I keep my 1616m and i'm looking how to mod it).


----------



## Telstar

Quote: 





			
				3X0 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> They sound the same.


 

 No, they dont.
  Unless the unit is made i such a bad way that covers the sonic signature of the converters (it could be the case with this product, but i havent seen the pcb nor listened to it).


----------



## Telstar

see below:


			
				3X0 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Well, almost. The idiom "garbage in, garbage out" gets thrown around way too often here. I like to think of that phrase as being more suited for file bitrate or source _material_, but I do think that there is a thin layer of garbage in DACs. These are the DACs that do not measure well and do not convert the digital signal faithfully as they are supposed to. Ultra-vintage and tube DACs can fall into this category.
> 
> ...


----------



## Telstar

While I agre (almost everyone does) that transducers have the biggest impact on the reproduced sound, 





			
				3X0 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> However, modern-day DACs and amplifiers (i.e. _electronics_) that are well-built will measure far beyond the perceptive capability of the human ear.


 

 you underestimate your ears.
   
  The studies that you have surely read are old, poorly done and used low-resolution equipment.


----------



## gregorio

Telstar said:
			
		

> .Professional equipment, with a few notable exceptions has the only requisites of neutrality and accouracy. Any piece of crap that measures within the standards (of the few measurements used which are way usufficient to evaluate the sound quality of an equipment piece, but this is another topic) will be used by professionals depending on their budget.




Ignorance is not generally a good thing. Broadcasting your ignorance to the world is stupid. Publicly insulting professionals (who are not ignorant) based on your own ignorance makes you look like an even bigger idiot!

G


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





			
				EddieE said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Hm you can no longer see the back now.
> 
> So what do we know about the AK4396, how would it rank with WM8740 and WM8741?


 


  I had the EMU 0404 USB and I have a 8740 and 8741 based DACs now. The EMU sounds crispier, darker slightly laid back, the Wolfsons are more dynamic with wider soundstage and brighter. 8741 is just slightly more detailed and has better defined and tighter bass.
   
  hope this helps


----------



## firgoe

is EMU 0404 USB superior in SQ compared to EMU 0204 considering it's balanced output?


----------



## anetode

Quote: 





telstar said:


> you underestimate your ears.
> 
> The studies that you have surely read are old, poorly done and used low-resolution equipment.


 


  Any suggestion of new, well-done studies that used high-resolution equipment to look up?


----------



## Reticuli2

Quote:


powerlifter450 said:


> Even after sending mine back, I'm interested in what otehrs think of ths DAC. To me, no matter what headphones I used Sony xb300,700,beyerdynamic 770/80s, Ultrasone pro 900, or Denon d5k, It sounded like there was too much treble and the bass rolled off. It put the crimp on the bass without a doubt. I'm waiting on my Musiland md-10 to come in , Twice the price but very nice.


 

 All those headphones are below 100ohms and the Emu 0204 jack is 22 ohms.  People keep missing the specs info for the Emu.  It says 22 ohms.  That's the jack's own impedance.  And then it gives you the 16mW + 16mW, which I assume is into 300 ohms since the next two specs use that.  That's actually not too bad into that high an impedance.  Driving headphones that are 100ohms and over, the class A circuitry amp on the 0204 is superior to the E7's.  The Fiio, though, is much better for low impedance headphones and gives them DEEP bass.  Lows sound kind of powdery and not harmonically rich with the E7 and the ER4S in comparison. Still beats the pants off most DAP jacks, but the 0204, even in spite of its modest 4:1 damping ratio with the ER4S is much more open, tuneful, detailed, quicker, etc, etc, than the Fiio.  You can tell there's some lack of dynamics and damping, but it's not too bad and certainly doesn't override the extreme clarity of circuit.  The headphone jack also doubles as a +2V line out and tests very well in RMAA as a line.  It might actually drive the E7's preamp better than the rear line out, at least to my ears and avoiding the 1.25V E7 limit.
   
  Now, the 0204 ASIO drivers seem to SUCK really bad.  It's working well enough with Fubar, upsampling, crossfeed, and kernal.  But I would never DJ out with the Emu as it's just not stable and low-latency enough.  I need to have latency maxed in VDJ and Traktor for there to be no dropouts.  Kind of sad considing its amazing sound.  My two DJ controllers with 24bit ASIO soundcards built in never had those problems.


----------



## Reticuli2

Unless you're using a balanced headphone/amp combo or are running long distances, unbalanced will always sound better than balanced.  Now, you can certainly use unbalanced lines (the right type, like TS) on balanced jacks just fine.  Having a balanced port doesn't make its unbalanced use worse... again you have to use right cables.  I think the 0204 sounds very good and I doubt it is worse sounding than the 0404.  Emu seems to think they improved on it in some way in the circuit design.  Don't know.  Never heard the 0404.  I do think maybe the 0204 is touch more natural and cohesive compared to the 1212m, but that's a very invalid comparison for me to make without the same gear to do the comparison and the 1212m not being here for me to check.  The 1212m was quite stable in ASIO, though.  The 0204 doesn't seem to be.
  Quote: 





firgoe said:


> is EMU 0404 USB superior in SQ compared to EMU 0204 considering it's balanced output?


----------



## gregorio

anetode said:


> Any suggestion of new, well-done studies that used high-resolution equipment to look up?




The most respected study of this type was published 3 or 4 years ago by the Audio Engineering Society. It was designed to test if CD could be differentiated from hi-rez formats. During the DBTs they used a range of equipment, including both standard rez equipment and high end equipment such as audiophile grade cables, SACD and 24/96, etc. The study contained over 500 trials, took over a year to complete and involved professional audio engineers, students and audiophiles. Not one of them could identify which was which! Overall, the results were almost exactly 50%, precisely what would be predicted from chance guessing.

G


----------



## anetode

Thanks, I'm aware of that study. I was wondering specifically what studies Telstar was referring to in his hasty dismissal.


----------



## jiiteepee

Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> ...
> 
> Now, the 0204 ASIO drivers seem to SUCK really bad.  It's working well enough with Fubar, upsampling, crossfeed, and kernal.  But I would never DJ out with the Emu as it's just not stable and low-latency enough.  I need to have latency maxed in VDJ and Traktor for there to be no dropouts.  Kind of sad considing its amazing sound.  My two DJ controllers with 24bit ASIO soundcards built in never had those problems.


 


 In most cases, dropouts are related to CPU usage and disk read operations.
  As USB audio interfaces are very sensitive for high priority processes, especially when the ASIO driver is type of wrapper as it is in case of E-MU USB audio interfaces, system needs to be well 'cleared' to get low latency operation working well. Actually, you can't compare E-MU USB audio interface against PCI/PCIe soundcards because of that fact.
   
  There are tools for to help clear out the system from harmful highpriority procecces. Couple of them are listed in my signature.
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

I'll try updating my CPU, but (guess I didn't mention it here) I've been also comparing the 0204 to two 24bit USB ASIO DJ controller/interfaces that do not have any dropouts: A Numark and Hercules.  In fact, they can go all the way down to 5ms without much problem.  The Emu 0204 needs like 1000-2000ms and still I must walk on glass, have background processes given priority, and turn off as many tasks as possible.  Open up a web page or the task manager, and I STILL have split second glitches.  How is that possible with that configuration?  I could never use the Emu to DJ with (not to mention it's annoying for music listening in ASIO) with this state of drivers.  People always disrespect Windows MME and DS for not being bit perfect, but at least it's 24bit too now and I NEVER have drop outs.  The lag is still higher than 2000ms, but you know what I mean?  Right now I'm trying to stick to Kernal in Fubar, but people are saying that's a bad idea for some reason.  To me, it seems to sound close to ASIO with fewer drop-outs though not quite as seemless as Windows MME/DS.
  Quote: 





jiiteepee said:


> In most cases, dropouts are related to CPU usage and disk read operations.
> As USB audio interfaces are very sensitive for high priority processes, especially when the ASIO driver is type of wrapper as it is in case of E-MU USB audio interfaces, system needs to be well 'cleared' to get low latency operation working well. Actually, you can't compare E-MU USB audio interface against PCI/PCIe soundcards because of that fact.
> 
> There are tools for to help clear out the system from harmful highpriority procecces. Couple of them are listed in my signature.
> ...


----------



## slashclee

Anybody get this working on Lion?


----------



## jiiteepee

Quote: 





slashclee said:


> Anybody get this working on Lion?


 


 Maybe with a trick described here - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3190228?start=0&tstart=0
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## slashclee

Quote: 





jiiteepee said:


> Maybe with a trick described here - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3190228?start=0&tstart=0
> 
> jiiteepee


 


  Ugh. I love the 0202 hardware, but the drivers are a nightmare, and if their official position is that they're not going to support Lion I'm not going to be buying any more E-MU hardware. Such a shame.


----------



## akwok

I just got my 0204 today, but I'm hearing pops and clicks whenever I start or stop any audio stream.  The noise seems to coincide with the sample rate box being enabled/disabled in the E-MU 0204 USB control panel.  Has anyone been able to resolve this issue?  It's a deal breaker for me.


----------



## .Sup

Sounds like bit rate isn't set right. Is it set at 44khz or 48khz?


----------



## akwok

Quote: 





.sup said:


> Sounds like bit rate isn't set right. Is it set at 44khz or 48khz?


 


  I've had it set and tested at every available bitrate under the Windows 7 sound manager.  There are pops and clicks with every one...
   
  I've also tried using both DirectSound and WASAPI outs in Winamp and there are still pops and clicks prior to an audio stream, and also a few seconds after the audio stream is finished.


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





akwok said:


> I've had it set and tested at every available bitrate under the Windows 7 sound manager.  There are pops and clicks with every one...
> 
> I've also tried using both DirectSound and WASAPI outs in Winamp and there are still pops and clicks prior to an audio stream, and also a few seconds after the audio stream is finished.


 


  Are you on wireless?


----------



## akwok

Quote: 





.sup said:


> Are you on wireless?


 


  No... I don't see how that would have anything to do with it anyways...


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





akwok said:


> No... I don't see how that would have anything to do with it anyways...


 


  You would be surprised


----------



## jiiteepee

Pops and clicks can come from various sources as like for an example too tight playback buffering, disk reads, background processes, DC offset, faulty hw/driver, SRC (is Vista/W7 set to resample), WiFi, etc.
   
  Measure the card - http://audio.rightmark.org/index_new.shtml
   
  Check your system - couple tools linked in my sig.
   
  Try ASIO in ASIO software (though in this case it's probably unnecessary since E-MU USB ASIO  driver is type of wrapper driver). - http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/Beatport-SYNC-Download-96408.html
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

[size=10pt][size=10pt]I've done all those tests and then some.  Emu's drivers for asynchronous USB audio clearly still needs work.  Creative's turning into the Numark of prosumer recording interfaces, though.  They come out with new products too often and now only seem to support them for about a year.[/size][/size]


----------



## Reticuli2

What do you mean enabled/disabled?  If there's no application using the ASIO on the 0204, then the sample rate is selectable manually.  If there is an application using it, you cannot self-select.  So essentially you're saying the ticks and pauses get worse when ASIO is in use.  That's not surprising.
  
  Quote: 





akwok said:


> I just got my 0204 today, but I'm hearing pops and clicks whenever I start or stop any audio stream.  The noise seems to coincide with the sample rate box being enabled/disabled in the E-MU 0204 USB control panel.  Has anyone been able to resolve this issue?  It's a deal breaker for me.


----------



## akwok

Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> What do you mean enabled/disabled?  If there's no application using the ASIO on the 0204, then the sample rate is selectable manually.  If there is an application using it, you cannot self-select.  So essentially you're saying the ticks and pauses get worse when ASIO is in use.  That's not surprising.


 


  The ticks and pauses occur during this transition from "enabled" to "disabled" and vice versa.  I'm not using ASIO, at least I don't think so -- it happens even when I just load up Firefox to play a Youtube video.


----------



## evanft

I'm honestly thinking about dumping this device. Let's go through some problems I've had:

 1. Won't actually play back 16/44.1 files without changing bit depth or sample rate.

 2. Won't play 24/192 files back in ASIO mode. Will play back in WASAPI.
   
  3. Have to use ASIO4ALL if I want to use ASIO playback without pops and clicks.
   
  4. No driver updates available. In fact, you can't find any drivers for this device on their web site.
   
  I would not recommend this product to anyone.


----------



## Reticuli2

Thing is I can't find any MME 24/192 DACs that sound this good at anywhere near this price, let alone ASIO ones.  I'm open to suggestions.  I have better luck with Kernal than WASAPI in Fubar for 24bit files rather than Winamp with ASIO.  I also don't have your problem of playing 16/44.1 in MME, ASIO, or Kernal in any program... including Winamp if I'm not surfing the internet wildly or accessing Task Manager.  I'm pretty sure it doesn't resample, though I'm not sure if it does that would be so bad.  Yep, just checked it and 44.1 is locked in the app with ASIO playing a burn-in track right now.
   
  Not sure how bit-perfect ASIOFORALL is.  My understanding is it's just a wrapper for Windows MME.  I know it never passed bit-perfect HDCD rips with my 1212m using a digital out.  I think you're better off using MME or DirectSound like normal if you want less glitches and don't need bit-perfect clarity and transients.  I think Windows 7 64 on mine has exclusive modes for a lot of applications.
   
  I'm also pretty annoyed with Emu's driver situation, but I'm hoping upgrading the CPU on my laptop will improve the situation.  Perhaps this a[size=10pt]synchronous [/size]thing takes a lot more processing power than normal ASIO.
   
  I do think the headphone amp is very good on this with sufficiently sensitive and high impedance headphones.  Kind of a tough match, but the Fiios sound noticeably less liquid & clear in the mids, less refined in the highs, and, at least with the E7, sounds much more wooly in the bass than the 0204 does.  I just need to find the right headphone to run out of the 0204.
   
  For hifi stuff, I'm still not sure what out there (that's currently produced) can match the 0204.  It's crap for pro applications and I'll never DJ out with it in this state, but that's really not an issue for most people on head-fi.

  
  Quote: 





evanft said:


> I'm honestly thinking about dumping this device. Let's go through some problems I've had:1. Won't actually play back 16/44.1 files without changing bit depth or sample rate.2. Won't play 24/192 files back in ASIO mode. Will play back in WASAPI.
> 
> 3. Have to use ASIO4ALL if I want to use ASIO playback without pops and clicks.
> 
> ...


----------



## Reticuli2

Going from a Celeron 900 single core to a Core 2 Duo T7250 made a big difference.  There are still some faint engage tics and also glitches with 24/192 Ultra upsampling when I'm also doing a massive amount of stuff (video playing in the background and flipping through task manager at the same time), but the bad ones after the track gets playing are infrequent even then.  Still, the specs said nothing about needing that and ASIO on other products doesn't need it that I've found.  Again, possibly the a[size=10pt]synchronous at fault, but that's supposed to be a good thing.[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Not sure how Mixcraft will fair.  Let me try that...[/size]
   
  Yeah, still getting a lot of high pitched tics that aren't quite as faint as the engage ones during winamp.  Hmm...  I'll need to install some other mixing software to find out if this is just Mixcraft or not.  The record and pro aspects still are not ready for prime-time.


----------



## akwok

Quote: 





akwok said:


> The ticks and pauses occur during this transition from "enabled" to "disabled" and vice versa.  I'm not using ASIO, at least I don't think so -- it happens even when I just load up Firefox to play a Youtube video.


 


  So it ended up being the headphone amp of the 0204 USB causing these pops and clicks with the HD800s.  I guess there might be circuitry inside that cuts power to the headphone jack when there isn't anything playing -- maybe to conserve energy.  In any case, the 0204 USB is awesome when acting as a DAC-only.


----------



## Reticuli2

[size=10pt]Looking at the specs, it appears as if for high impedance headphones the 0204 has the same amount of max output as the Fiio E6 and E7. 16mW into 300ohms. The difference is the 0204 is 22ohms and the Fiios are less than 1ohm, so the latter is far better for low impedance headphones. At 100ohms with the ER4S, I still prefer the 0204 over the E7 and have to give the E6 a slight nod over the 0204. The E6 has a definitely different sound to the class A amp in the Emu, though, not to mention the inferior damping at 22ohms into 100ohms. On some stuff the Emu is hard not to prefer.  Over 175ohms, I doubt I would use the Fiios.[/size]
   
   
  [size=10pt]Even with the Beyerdynamic DT880 600 you're looking at 105dB max output with a choice of the 0204 or the E6 driving it. That's still pretty loud for most people if we assume a -6dB average recording level/dynamic range RMS. 99dB for normal masters is pretty darn loud. And anything over 80dB is going to make your ear/brain's THD worse than the dac/amp/headphone synergy. That still gives you over 19dB further bellow Full Scale for quiet recordings.  How loud do we really need it?[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]I have further tested the Emu ASIO asynchronous drivers to the standard ASIO on my DJ controller/interfaces and the Emu is absolutely not ready for primetime and live use. The controllers are rock solid in comparison. This is even after uninstalling a dozen things on the computer, adding 2GB of ram, and switching from a single core to a dual-core CPU. It helps, but not quite enough to have "high confidence" in live stability.[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Still, for the combined price of the 0204 and an E6 for lower impedance cans (E7's a little better in the 50-70ohm range) fed the rear 2V mini with the E6 in mode 3, is there anything that comes close to this performance if we ignore the stability of bit-perfect and low-latency support right now?  Just as an MME or directsound device like every other "hifi" headphone amp/dac around, is there anything with this level of performance or better?  I assume it's easy to out-do its max voltage, but with the calliber of design quality at work here it might still be a good buy.[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Anyone?[/size]


----------



## ph0rk

Quote: 





telstar said:


> *You are listening in the "silver-plated copper" class, maybe even lesser. But as longas you are happy... *


 

  
   
  Translation: You no longer want to spend as much as I do, and therefore must not know what you're talking about.
   
   
  Seriously, the "well you haven't heard the _right_ top end components" argument is pretty weak, especially given 3X0's claimed experience.


----------



## njekin

Hey I had the same problem on my three year old laptop. But when I use my core i5 2400 desktop running both mac and windows 7 64bit, it's very stable. I can use very coreaudio in mac lower to around 8ms without buzz. In windows, I tried 3ms it worked simply playing without much VST computing.   Seems like they designed this product in a good computer......


----------



## Dixie Flatline

Quote: 





slashclee said:


> Ugh. I love the 0202 hardware, but the drivers are a nightmare, and if their official position is that they're not going to support Lion I'm not going to be buying any more E-MU hardware. Such a shame.


 


  Everybody may know this already, but E-MU released Lion drivers on Friday, downloadable here.  They support the 0202, 0204, and 0404 USB.
   
  I don't have Lion, but they seem a little more solid on Snow Leopard than the release drivers for the 0204 did.


----------



## Reticuli2

[size=10pt]Maybe that means there's hope for the Windows 7 drivers and that they're working on them. No offense, but I think it's ridiculous to expect people to have the latest quad cores to run a USB sound card, even with the asynchronous stuff.  Vestax I believe is about to come out with a 4 fader/channel-pair DJ controller that will also use that type of ASIO over USB, and I’d be very surprised if they don’t in fact achieve stable low-latency with ease on the first release.  I’ve never heard of any of the uber-expensive asynchronous pro interfaces that use asynchronous ASIO requiring i5 or i7 CPUs just to run.  They’ve been around since before the “I” series Intels came out.[/size]


----------



## Reticuli2

Anyone else ever get buzzing sound from the 0204 when starting or after reboot.  Fixes with unplugging the usb, waiting, then plugging back in.  But it's been happening quite frequently after I re-installed the drivers.


----------



## Garage1217

Interesting, I am not experiencing any of the issues noted and no pops or clicks. As reticuli2 said, maybe it has to do with me having a decent amount of processing power. All sounds fantastic out of the little box and measurements were stellar
   
  The last drivers that were made available to my knowledge were 6.0.1.1 back on 11-12-2010 which is ancient. Are these the same drivers you windows guys are running?
   
  Also what version of USB are you running your units on? 1, 2 or 3.0?


----------



## Reticuli2

2.0 USB.  I have no clue which version of the drivers I have and I don't see any options on the Emu website.  I've just re-installed them from the CD again.  4GB of ram and a Core2Duo with 2MB of cache should not be below the minimum requirements.  I've been moving around between the included Mixcraft, Virtual DJ and two different versions of Traktor Pro without consistent performance in any setting or latency... even with such high latency I can't actually DJ with it.  Eventually it either gets completely distorted, or it's clicking or has breaks or faint glitches or something.  I've tried 16, 24, 32bit, let the program control the latency, manually set the latency and turn that option off, safe mode in VDJ and on and on.  It works pretty well now with ASIO at any upsampling rate if I'm in Winamp or Foobar and doing NOTHING.  I can't get it to run well enough in any pro piece of software, though.  ASIO is supposed to be more consistent in performance than DirectSound, yet it seems to be exactly the opposite with the 0204.


----------



## Reticuli2

Checked.  My drivers are 6.0.1.1.
   
  And I should mention with the pro software I've got no applications running at the same time.


----------



## jiiteepee

Quote:


reticuli2 said:


> Checked.  My drivers are 6.0.1.1.
> 
> And I should mention with the pro software I've got no applications running at the same time.


 


 If you mean this happens when the device is in use by some software through ASIO/WASAPI (exclusive mode)/Kernel Streaming (WDM/KS) then it's normally related to the fact that driver isn't type of multiclient.
   
  Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> 2.0 USB.  I have no clue which version of the drivers I have and I don't see any options on the Emu website.  I've just re-installed them from the CD again.  4GB of ram and a Core2Duo with 2MB of cache should not be below the minimum requirements.  I've been moving around between the included Mixcraft, Virtual DJ and two different versions of Traktor Pro without consistent performance in any setting or latency... even with such high latency I can't actually DJ with it.  Eventually it either gets completely distorted, or it's clicking or has breaks or faint glitches or something.  I've tried 16, 24, 32bit, let the program control the latency, manually set the latency and turn that option off, safe mode in VDJ and on and on.  It works pretty well now with ASIO at any upsampling rate if I'm in Winamp or Foobar and doing NOTHING.  I can't get it to run well enough in any pro piece of software, though.  ASIO is supposed to be more consistent in performance than DirectSound, yet it seems to be exactly the opposite with the 0204.


 
   
  I suppose the ASIO for 0204USB is 'bout the same as it's for 0404USB ... i.e. wrapper driver (you can check this through driver files properties).
  IMO, if the ASIO driver is that bad as you describe, there should be plenty more bargains over it on several forums (I haven't noticed) --> I believe there's something wrong in your setup ... which maybe relates to low latency operations.
   
  BTW, you can check the driver versions through device manager.
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

Quote: 





jiiteepee said:


> Quote:
> If you mean this happens when the device is in use by some software through ASIO/WASAPI (exclusive mode)/Kernel Streaming (WDM/KS) then it's normally related to the fact that driver isn't type of multiclient.
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I meant I only have one program running at a time when I've got a pro app running, so it's not like I'm surfing the web and running a video in the background while trying to get Traktor and Mixcraft to work to work at the same time. I'm keeping other operations down to a minimum and only using one at a time to give the Emu the best chance to have consistent performance.  It's still not enough for the pro app.  It is for WinAmp ASIO if I don't do anything else and just listen, but a single pro app appears to be doing too much itself in the background.  Ditto if I'm surfing the web while running WinAmp ASIO.
   
  What do you mean by a "wrapper"? I thought wrappers aren't actually exclusive-running. So I thought ASIO4All is a wrapper, but ASIO drivers for something like the Emu are not. It was my understanding that wrapper audio drivers were the inferior type. Is that wrong?  I've never gotten ASIO4All to actually even be bit-perfect, while I've never had a problem getting bit-perfect out of dj interfaces or prior Emu PCI interfaces I've had.  My hunch was that was related to ASIO4All being a wrapper around DirectSound in some way and the true ASIO drivers being the real deal.  ???
   
  "there should be plenty more bargains over it on several forums (I haven't noticed)"
   
  Well exactly. That's my whole point. What other models are out there for this price that sound this good but have more stable performance? You would think there would be, but no one has mentioned one. It should even be possible to make it for the same or lower cost while making higher profit, as I don't even need the microphone preamps.
   
  Both my Numark and Hercules DJ controllers are 24bit ASIO and neither has ever glitched up, paused, frozen, or anything like that during use of dj or production mixing software. And neither is buzzing sometimes when I first boot up the computer. If there was a general problem with the set up of my laptop that universally relates to DPC latency, then I would assume those two interfaces would be having problems, as well... unless asynchronous ASIO is specifically highly intolerant of issues. As aside from the fact the 0204 is a newer unit, from Emu/Creative, and has had few revisions of its drivers, the only significant difference between it and the Numark and Hercules units is the asynchronous aspect. However, considering I've never heard of these problems mentioned with other asynchronous ASIO pro interfaces that cost a lot more, I'm led to assume it is likely more to do with Emu/Creative and their drivers needing improvement. That has become a common complaint with the company: their support and attention to issues is often said to be quite bad of late across many forums and review websites.
   
  I would definitely consider ASIO drivers needing a quad core or "i" series CPU and Core2Duo being too slow as being a driver issue.  I've got more than double the minimum stated specs on the box.
   
  I mean, they finally JUST released drivers for Apple Lion OS, right?  People have complained about that for a while without a peep from Emu/Creative.  Maybe they're working on better Windows drivers and the Creative bureaucracy prevents the sort of speed and good communication with customers that Emu used to have.  But there's really no way to know.


----------



## Reticuli2

Response from Emu
   
  1, Make sure the 0204 USB is using a USB HOST that is on an IRQ alone.
 This means no other device in the PC can be sharing its IRQ.
   
  2, If you are running a hyper-threaded CPU, by turning hyperthreading off from the bios. You can set the latency at 20ms or lower and you will usually not have any latency issues.
   
  3, Change Processor Scheduling to 'Background Services'
 Navigate to the Advanced page of the System applet. Click on the Performance Settings button, select its Advanced tab and click on 'Background Services' for Processor Scheduling (see top pair of screens).

 4, Switch Off Power Schemes
 In the Power Options applet, choose the 'Always On' power scheme. Change the settings for monitor and hard disk turn off and System standby to 'Never', so that your PC doesn't unexpectedly conk out during song playback (see screens below).

 5, Disable System Sounds
 Select the 'No Sounds' scheme on the Sounds tab of the Sounds and Audio Devices applet.
   
  6, Make sure legacy USB support is disabled in your BIOS.
  Please remember the more information you provide, including previous correspondence in your mail, helps in troubleshooting and solving the problem you are experiencing.
  Thank You
 EMU Systems
  Don't forget to check out http://www.EMU.com for your latest drivers, and updates, and EMU Products.
   
  Response:
   
  I'm not sure how to do #1.
   
  I haven't had hyperthreading on the Celeron 900 or the Core2Duo.
   
  Background services makes a small improvement, but not much.
   
  Power schemes are already Always On.
   
  System sounds are always off.
   
  Not sure about legacy USB support in the BIOS.  I'll have to check that.


----------



## jiiteepee

Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> Response from Emu
> 
> 1, Make sure the 0204 USB is using a USB HOST that is on an IRQ alone.
> This means no other device in the PC can be sharing its IRQ.
> ...


 

  Probably not much you can do.
  Disable everything you don't need through BIOS (serial ports/com ports/printer port/game port/floppy/WLan/etc.), and hope some USB 'host' gets an IRQ it's own. Use that port for 0204.
  You can examine which USB port belongs into which controller through device manager by setting the View to "Resources by type".
   
  jiitee


----------



## Reticuli2

Second response from Emu:
   
  note that newest mainboards are having paired power saving utilities. If you are going to access the bios setting, locate for this option.

 Do not set the utility to auto mode, use real time. The card mustn't go in power saving modes through usb.

 If you still require assistance, please reply to this email and include any previous correspondence to ensure a quick response.

 Regards,
  
  ---
   
  I don't know what they're talking about with all these bios settings.  I got nothing like that in my bios.  No power savings.  No legacy USB settings.  It's like the fan option.  Whether the function keys need that extra button.  The clock.  And RAM and hard drive testing routines.  That's it.  Even after updating my bios there's nothing like that in there.
   
  Is paired power saving utility something I need to access from Windows?  There were a couple of utilities from HP on the laptop and I uninstalled most of them.  The Windows powersaving settings seem to do the exact same thing that the one limited utility did that I remember.  In fact, its advanced settings required you to go to the normal Windows power scheme screen.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dixie flatline said:


> Everybody may know this already, but E-MU released Lion drivers on Friday, downloadable here.  They support the 0202, 0204, and 0404 USB.
> 
> I don't have Lion, but they seem a little more solid on Snow Leopard than the release drivers for the 0204 did.


 

 Shocking, really! From 2008-2010 I grew tired of waiting for OS X support. My E-MU 0404 is back on the Windows side; new DAC for the Mac. Thanks for posting, I'm curious and wanna play around with it this weekend.
   
  Do you (anyone?) know if the new driver will support 192 kHz?


----------



## Reticuli2

I tried uninstalling the 0204, moving it to it to the USB on the other side of the laptop (there's one adjacent to it on the side it was on that showed up under the same host) and it seems to slightly help very low latencies, but doesn't help latency stability overall and therefore still makes those low latencies useless in practice.  Before they distorted immediately.  Now they just take a while.
   
  It turns out most laptops do not have advanced bios options.
   
  The best thing so far has been removing the laptop's battery when connected to AC power.  DPC latencies dropped down to the lowest they've been so far and much more consistent than I'd seen.  That was a suggestion I remembered reading somewhere a month ago about other USB ASIO interfaces.  Then I did the port swap (as stated above) and DPC seems to jump up now a little more frequenty, though still better than when the battery is connected.
   
  I am still not getting anything near what the Emu/Creative people seem to think is possible.  Mixcraft LE eventually gets some pretty crazy distortion (sounds like a bit reduction effect) when it's been running for a few minutes below a latency of 20-50.  And opening any FX while Mixcraft is player causes a momentary tick or glitch.


----------



## jiiteepee

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Reticuli2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> It turns out most laptops do not have advanced bios options.
> ...


 


  You can use device manger as well for to disable hardware features (how does it effect in IRQ situation, I don't remember).
   
  BTW, I've noticed many of those processes which puts icons into right side of the taskbar worses the performance of 0404 USB. As those are mostly some control applets there, just shut down them. I suppose you still could find some instructions over which system processes are needed and which aren't ... this way you can minimize count of running processes. Same with the tweaks for DAW.
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

On my laptop, two ports on the left side appear to share a host bus while there are like a half dozen other usb hosts available but not used.  The one on the right side uses its own host.  There is a hub/cooler connected to one of those on the left and the one next to it was plugged directly into the Emu.  Dual external hard drives, the mouse, and some other things are connected to the cooler.

 I don't know where you look to find if there is anything else on the laptop sharing an IRQ.
  Quote: 





jiiteepee said:


> You can use device manger as well for to disable hardware features (how does it effect in IRQ situation, I don't remember).
> 
> BTW, I've noticed many of those processes which puts icons into right side of the taskbar worses the performance of 0404 USB. As those are mostly some control applets there, just shut down them. I suppose you still could find some instructions over which system processes are needed and which aren't ... this way you can minimize count of running processes. Same with the tweaks for DAW.
> 
> jiiteepee


----------



## jiiteepee

Use this path to find out which USB port shares IRQ with some other device/controller and which USB port uses which USB controller.
   
  Example:
  - open DeviceManager and set the view to Resources by type, expand the IRQ 'list'
  - check the IRQ numbers and addresses for USB controllers listed there (example: (PCI) 0x00000017 (23) Intel(R) 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller - 3B34 where the number 0x0000000xx (xx) is the IRQ number and 3B34 address.
  - see if any other has the same IRQ number
  ... if there is one USB controller not sharing IRQ with other devices/controllers then check which physical USB port is 'using it'
  ... if there are shares on every USB controller then check if those IRQ sharing devices/controllers can be disabled (I listed earlier some you may not need)
   
  To find out which USB port is connected into which Host Controller,
  - shut down E-MU USB (or take the USB cable off)
  - open DeviceManager in default view (Devices by type)
  - select th USB controller you want to connect the E-MU USB and see if the data band consumption changes when you connect the E-MU USB (remember update list after connection/disconnection/switching to another controller) ... this can be seen by device properties (2nd tab from the left) ... connecting new device should add another line into that list of devices with a percentage value it uses from the available data band.
   
_Sorry if words I used for describing does not match ... I'm using W7 in finnish so the terms might not be 1:1 translations._
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

[size=10pt]O.k. I think I know what you're getting at, now, after messing around with it and comparing some pages back and forth. I disabled all the USB(without a 2) device/host things. I also checked around for the IRQs and the spot I just moved the Emu over to is sharing an IRQ with a SATA controller that is connected to the DVD drive and the main internal HD. That's on the right side near the DVD drive. On the left side are two ports that are shared on the same host, but right now just the one is being used by the cooler/hub that has my mouse, two external drives, and some other stuff connected to it. That IRQ is just on that. So I swapped the Emu and the cooler/hub without re-doing the Emu drivers. Now the Emu is on its own IRQ and the DVD, main HD, two USB drives, mouse, and some other stuff are all sharing an IRQ. Seems o.k. for them, though. I'll try some tests tomorrow to see how things have changed. With (I assume) all the legacy USB off and the Emu on its own IRQ, I hope this finally starts working. Seems like the only other suggestion are these manual power saving modes over auto ones. All the ports have permissions to power them down to save power turned off. My main Windows power setting is set for performance. The only thing I can't find is related to why the battery might be causing so many problems. I should try with battery and no AC to compare to with AC and no battery to see if there's a difference there. Battery and AC connected was really terrible, though.[/size]
   
  Quote: 





jiiteepee said:


> Use this path to find out which USB port shares IRQ with some other device/controller and which USB port uses which USB controller.
> 
> Example:
> - open DeviceManager and set the view to Resources by type, expand the IRQ 'list'
> ...


----------



## Reticuli2

"note that newest mainboards are having paired power saving utilities. If you are going to access the bios setting, locate for this option.

 Do not set the utility to auto mode, use real time. The card mustn't go in power saving modes through usb."
  
   
  You think this whole section is about power saving, and not anything to do with the Emu properties & latency screen?


----------



## prestigetone

If I am running powered monitors with an XLR input, will this DAC adjust the volume for me. People on this thread have said no, but the front of the unti suggests it will.
   
  Please advise. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Reticuli2

Yes, but you'll have to go from a properly wired unbalanced XLR cable, since the 0204 is not balanced out.  The headphone jack can be used as a full 2V line out that gives similar performance to the rear outs, which is why the 0204's headphone jack is not appropriate for low-impedance headphones.  It's essentially a 22-ohm headphone jack that doubles as an analog-volumed line out that can either be another ASIO (Aux) or mirror the rear Main outs.  Of course, if you don't mind reducing total dynamic range, you could also use the rear outs and windows volume control (or the one in whatever software you're using).  but I assume you want an analog pot on the 0204.  There is one, it's just on the front for the headphone out.  And again, the headphone out is not a bad line out.  It appears designed to give identical performance as the rear outs.


----------



## Big can man

I was able to hear an 0204 playing through a tube amp to HD650's last week. The guy was using the headphone out as the pre-amp to the amp. The whole combo had amazing synergy! Made it hard to choose what component I liked best.


----------



## Reticuli2

Did you try it direct out of the headphone jack on the 0204, too?  It's pretty good.  I rarely need to go past halfway on it with the DT990-250.

  
  Quote: 





big can man said:


> I was able to hear an 0204 playing through a tube amp to HD650's last week. The guy was using the headphone out as the pre-amp to the amp. The whole combo had amazing synergy! Made it hard to choose what component I liked best.


----------



## ewyoung

[size=medium]Hi Reticuli2,[/size]
   
  [size=medium]I appreciate all the work you have done trying to improve the performance of the E-MU ASIO driver. I did some tests and am posting the results here. I am using a Dell D600 laptop with a 1.6MHz Pentium 4 M processor and 1.5 GB Ram. This is slower than your laptop. I am very pleased with the sound quality of the E-MU 0204, but have found the ASIO driver to not work very well, as you have reported.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]In the following images the red line in the Task Manager Performance images shows the Kernel Times and the green line shows the CPU Usage. The first image shows the difference when playing some music in Windows Media Player, first using the SigmaTel C-Major onboard audio card, and then switching to the E-MU 0204. It seems that a USB audio device uses more processing power than does the onboard PCI bus audio device. [/size]
   
  [size=medium][/size]
   
  [size=medium]The next image shows the CPU usage when playing a project in Cubase 5. The project has a great deal of midi data and was created to max out the CPU to the point of hearing pops and crackles. When using the ASIO4ALL V2.10 driver you can see the difference between the audio outputs mentioned in the last test. It appears that the difference in the E-MU 0204 usage is just the additional processing because it is a USB device. When using theASIO4ALL driver, even though the CPU usage appears nearly maxed out with the E-MU 0204, I still heard very few pops and crackles. Cubase was showing a latency of 12 ms.[/size]
   

   
   
  [size=medium]The next image shows the CPU Usage when using the same Cubase project but with the E-MU 0204 ASIO driver. I chose the 12 ms Buffer Size. The resultant CPU usage looks about the same as when using the ASIO4ALL driver, but there were so many pops and crackles that it wasn’t usable. If I increased the Buffer Size to 14 ms it worked fairly well, but still not as good as the ASIO4ALL. So the result is that I am using the ASIO4ALL driver in Cubase 5, Reason5, and the Komplete 7 instruments as well when in stand alone mode.[/size]
   
  [size=medium][/size]
   
   
  [size=medium]As jiiteepee had mentioned, both the ASIO4ALL and E-MU 0204 ASIO drivers seem to be wrappers. The following images show the properties.[/size]
   
  [size=medium] [/size]
   
  [size=medium]In 2007 I owned the RME Multiface II / Cardbus Bundle and used Mogami cables. The same laptop was used but the bus is different and the cost was over $1,000! With that audio interface and the RME ASIO driver, I could set the latency down to 3 ms or so. The HDSP PCMCIA CardBus Interface is a type II laptop card with zero wait state CardBus Busmaster technology. With up to 130 MB/s transfer rate in both directions, the same basic performance is provided on a notebook as a PCI card would offer on a desktop computer.[/size]
  [size=medium]I personally think the E-MU 0204 is a wonderful headphone amp! The $116.99 I paid at Amazon (they are having a 10% off sale) makes it one great deal. With the other features it has, such as being bus powered, it is even better. Would you please edit your Amazon review, because after reading your posts hear it doesn’t convey your current feelings, and probably has a negative effect on buyers?[/size]
   
  [size=medium]Thanks,
 Ernie Young[/size]


----------



## jiiteepee

As both uses same WDM/KS routines of E-MU audio driver system, less cpu usage/better performance of Asio4all driver might have some relation to programming language since, AFAIK, Asio4All is written using pure ASM when E-MU ASIO is written using C++. Sure coding technique has its fingers in the game as well.
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## Reticuli2

So if there was a digital out on the 0204, it probably wouldn't even work for sending a PCM HDCD bitstream like the 1212m could...  Because these wrapper things are usually not really bit perfect, let alone have the best low latency performance.  This explains why ALL the DJ controllers I use have superior low latency ASIO performance.  DJ controller/interfaces pretty much have to come with lower-level drivers for the application, otherwise they don't have good sales   So this ensures the Emu won't get used by me for live djing.  Darn.


----------



## Reticuli2

I think my Amazon review accurately reflects the fact the 0204 is not a good pro interface, but sounds good as a hifi dac.  I think the E6 is a superior headphone jack.  I also think the little soundcard inside my newest American DJ controller has way better bass than the 0204 regardless of headphone jack.  The low-end just isn't as tuneful on the Emu, even using it as just a DAC and line-out.  Emu needs to at least re-write the drivers before I can recommend it to people for anything other than just listening use.


----------



## Reticuli2

And doesn't using ASIOforall jeopardize the stability of the asychronous USB signal as far as jitter, even if it's not overtly glitching?


----------



## Reticuli2

Predictable BSOD when changing sample rates too high in Traktor and Deckadance with 0204.


----------



## nickmil

$65 from Creative store, using 50% off code (BF11EMU5).
   
  Check-out is thru Amazon (and fullfillment).
   
  Jump on this deal!


----------



## jiiteepee

http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=696475
   
  jiiteepee


----------



## njekin

That is what I posted on creative's forum. No creative people jumped in to face this problem. This company is really bad. I think this product should be banned in the market.


----------



## Reticuli2

I can't even get both aux outputs to become active in ASIO4ALL.


----------



## togo

Quote: 





nickmil said:


> $65 from Creative store, using 50% off code (BF11EMU5).
> 
> Check-out is thru Amazon (and fullfillment).
> 
> Jump on this deal!


 

 Is this offer still valid?
  When I submit checkout I only get page where I can accept or enter delivery address and
  no field to enter the promotion code. I'm not sure if I can click further because I'm afraid to finish my order for 129$.
  Regards, Tom


----------



## evanft

I wouldn't bother buying it. I'd wait and try to find another DAC that has better drivers that tests similarly well.


----------



## togo

Quote: 





evanft said:


> I wouldn't bother buying it. I'd wait and try to find another DAC that has better drivers that tests similarly well.


 

 I've read the whole thread so I'm aware of the problems.
  But as I understood (maybe I'm wrong) most of them impact the recording capabilities.
  Because I need only playback function, I think I can risk.
  In fact I can't find better match for my needs - best possible SQ, four channels,
  and HD formats support, and low price 
  Regards, Tom


----------



## Packgrog

Has anyone used one of these things for recording in stereo?  I'm trying in vain to find a decent USB ADC to record my vinyl at 24/192.  All I've seen in any threads relating to this are all about using it as a DAC, which really isn't that important to me.


----------



## Reticuli2

If you're at home and with a turntable, I assume you have a spare desktop around.  If so, you're much better off getting a PCI or firewire recording interface.


----------



## Packgrog

Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> If you're at home and with a turntable, I assume you have a spare desktop around.  If so, you're much better off getting a PCI or firewire recording interface.


 

 LOL!  Dude, I stopped using desktops years ago.  Also, I've yet to see a firewire audio interface that handles 24/192 recording at an even remotely comparable price.  Believe me, I'd go for it if there was one.
   
  I am on a MacBook Pro, though, and now that they've made Lion drivers available, I suspect that it will probably work better than it does on Windows.  I've ALWAYS had bad latency issues with USB audio on Windows.  Ick.
   
  I think that I found my answer yesterday when I came across stuff like this:  http://www.wallcoinc.com/Calrad_55_721G_1_Multi_Colored_Shielded_Patch_Cab_p/WAL22-55-721G-1.htm  It looks like you just need two RCA-to-1/4" cables to connect from a line output into the 0204.  Beyond that, I just hope that it's as accurate a conversion from analog to digital possible.  I'm guessing that no one here has tried it, and that everyone here is just trying to use the DAC.  Given that I already have an iBasso D1 that I use with the toslink port, I'm not too concerned about that.


----------



## Reticuli2

The 0204's AD conversion is inferior to the 0202 and the 0404.


----------



## Packgrog

DOH!  Thanks for the heads up on that.  Guess I'll have to look into the 0404 since the 0202 is discontinued.  Unless there's a better ADC for the money. I'd LOVE to get an Apogee Duet 2, but it's too damned expensive, ESPECIALLY after plunking down a decent chunk of change of a Phonomena II phono preamp.


----------



## Leopardi

So I'm getting KRK RP6's and I want to have a backup plan if they produce hissing on my X-Fi Titanium HD. Is this 0204 balanced or not? People are talking about using TS instead of TRS connectors and it's balanced, what does it mean?! What cables exactly should I have to use RP6's as balanced in this interface? And importantly does 0204 have a volume adjust?


----------



## Reticuli2

The 0204 is not balanced.  You want to use TS outs on the main outputs.  The front headphone jack also doubles as a line out, which is probably why it's a higher impedance jack.  Near zero-ohm jacks wouldn't work as well as line outs.


----------



## Leopardi

Well can you recommend me something balanced in similar price range? I doubt this would help removing hiss, my Titanium HD is not some laptop audio port.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

http://www.focusrite.com/products/audio_interfaces/saffire_6_usb/specifications/
   
  It's a little bit more expensive. @ ~$200 but you do get your moneys worth if you look at the spec and bundle..


----------



## loyola

Regarding the buzz in the 0204 USB output, I just resolved this on my Win7 x64 machine with the help of EMU support:
  apparently plugging the 0204 into a USB 3 port can cause this noise.
  Check your computer specs/manual to see which ports are usb 3 and which are 2, and plug it directly into a USB 2 port.


----------



## Reticuli2

The buzz is from the 0204 losing its sync with the computer.  Maybe it happens more with 3.0 jacks, but my laptop is only USB 2.0.  So their explaination is invalid.  Turning the unit off and then on or unplugging it will fix it, but it's very loud and very annoying when it happens upon startup or after it's been sitting for a long time without use.  When it loses sync while music is playing, it just gets distorted and broken up.  This can be fixed by just opening and closing the audio settings for whatever program you're using.  Emu/Creative drivers still need some improvement.
  
  Quote: 





loyola said:


> Regarding the buzz in the 0204 USB output, I just resolved this on my Win7 x64 machine with the help of EMU support:
> apparently plugging the 0204 into a USB 3 port can cause this noise.
> Check your computer specs/manual to see which ports are usb 3 and which are 2, and plug it directly into a USB 2 port.


----------



## Roller

USB 3.0 ports are terrible when it comes to USB DAC handling, they have rather severe issues that haven't been fixed on virtually any of the USB 3.0 host controllers available on the market.
   
  When possible, connect through USB 2.0 ports alone.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, they seem to be giving USB based audio components a bunch of issues.


----------



## sbradley02

Something of an aside. I have a nice 24/196 ADC in my preamp and would prefer to use that. Difficulty would be in getting the SPDIF data into my computer. The motherboard sound card only has SPDIF out. Is there a low cost PCIe SPDIF input card available? If the only solution is a high end sound card then I am better off just getting the E-MU 0204.
   
  Thanks


----------



## sbradley02

In case anyone is interested, this is what I decided to use for a solution, with the goal of simplicity:
  http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Fono%20mini.htm
  
  Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> Something of an aside. I have a nice 24/196 ADC in my preamp and would prefer to use that. Difficulty would be in getting the SPDIF data into my computer. The motherboard sound card only has SPDIF out. Is there a low cost PCIe SPDIF input card available? If the only solution is a high end sound card then I am better off just getting the E-MU 0204.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## IgorC

Quote: 





reticuli2 said:


> The 0204's AD conversion is inferior to the 0202 and the 0404.


 
   
  Really?
   
   
  All of them 0204, 0202 and 0404 have the very same AD  converter  AK5835(A).


----------



## Modwright01

Ok guys, Just bought it and test if this week end, but I am just sad to see that there are *20* pages and NO ONE said clearly how it sound, and how it works with headphones...So I bought it anyway for 80$ on a second hand site, but it was new not opened.


----------



## razvitm

to all the people with sync problems: go buy 5 different usb cables, cheap, medium cheap, but short cables, and try them all, you will find that the usb cable is a major player in the sync problem. The 2 meter usb cable bundled in is too long.


----------



## Modwright01

Hi everyone.
   
  Just receive my 204 USB.
   
  With the R10, the sound of this soundcard is just really really good, just impossible to compare with the built-in jack output of the macbook pro and mac pro. It is far far far better than the built in output. Just impressively clean, clear, lot of details, better definition, well balanced with a far better soundstage, larger. The thing important is to notice that the built in jack output on the macbook pro is really more powerfull.
   
  By the way; the sound is smoother, not agressive at all even sometimes I would like to. It is very _round and warm, maybe to much perfect because SO REAL._
   
  No hiss, no buzz. The 204 usb headphone output seems to be made with a very high quality built.
   
  When I compare with the built in jack output of my pre amp NAD T163, again, the 204 USB is far far far better !
   
  That's just amazing and it is hard to believe that this amazing sound is from this little black box.
   
  Just something important : I think this little amp is not made for high ohms headphones...I think it would be hard to drive more than 300 ohms (test before buy because I would probably not enough...)
   
  This little and very light sound card is I think a REALLY bargain (I payed 65€ for it) : 24/192 dac, auto powered, small, light, easy to take with the laptop.
   
  Just one word :  WOAW.
   
  I am just very curious to compare with other very expensive headphones amps. If higher the price is higher the quality of the sound is, It is hard to imagine the quality of the sound with an amp around 3000$...


----------



## Reticuli2

I think you may have just hit the nail on the head.  It is very long.  My X65F joystick had centering issues due to the very long USB and PS2 cables without any ferrites.  I added ferrites and massively improved it.  Since the emu's cable is removeable, replacing it with a short one that has a proper shielded jacket inside and big ferrites would probably help if the issue is not the drivers.  I'll try one of my short DJing cables that improved one of my USB decks.  Thanks, man.


----------



## Reticuli2

Hmm.  Helped a little.  I used it for a longer session before it crapped out again and needed to be paused or otherwise resynced.
   
  You guys have a wiggly USB cable port on the back of it?  My cable has never fit snuggly in the back.  The port/jack isn't wiggly, but the cable plug doesn't seem firm like other ports are.  I can move the cable plug around in it a little.  I wonder if that creates a poor connection.  It doesn't overtly drop out, though.  So that's why assume it's the drivers.  That and the fact ASIO is less stable at any latency compared to normal DirectSound.


----------



## Reticuli2

It's not implimented the same.  These are not even matched inputs.  That and the lack of balanced TRS outs, even though internally there's the circuitry for it, really makes me mad they skimped on it.
   
  I'm finding the highs on the Emu to sort of stick out from the rest of the spectrum and have a slight grit or something to them that they shouldn't have.  It doesn't sound as seamless a transition into the mids as it should.  Sounds a touch brighter than it should be, as a result, but the actual response is flat in that region.  Anyone else notice that?


----------



## Headzone

> Well can you recommend me something balanced in similar price range? I doubt this would help removing hiss, my Titanium HD is not some laptop audio port.


 
  You may look at Steinberg CI1.


----------



## iaamap

why is there no windows 8 driver for emu 0204 !!!!!!  does not work even in capability mode............... any help?  thx


----------



## skamp

For future reference:



My EMU 0204 USB is plugged into a USB3 port of my laptop, and I'm using the bundled USB cable. I have zero problems, it's rock solid.
The main volume pot doesn't control volume of the stereo line-out, which always outputs 2V no matter what. Sadly there is no way to mute the line-out when using headphones (on Linux anyway, I'm not sure about other OSes).
24/192 is fully supported on Linux.
Sound quality wise, the DAC is excellent.

I absolutely _love it_.


----------



## Dixie Flatline

Anybody had any luck with the 0204 on OSX 10.9 (Mavericks)?  I've tried installing the latest drivers (for Snow Leopard & Lion) in a Mavericks VM, and it crashes on boot when the 0204 is connected to the VM.  This does not incline me to try upgrading the host machine (an iMac) to Mavericks.


----------



## Schonen

I used the beta driver for 0404 on Win8.1 and it worked but now I use no driver because I plug in optical out from mb into optical in on 0404 so just use it as a DAC. It auto syncs to 48khz but if you want to use other sampling rates then to get it to sync you set the sampling rate and then turn 0404 off/on and then it will re-sync to new sampling rate. I have mine set to 96khz/24bit in Windows playback sound settings. I only use it for music and for games etc. I use the mb audio @44.1/16bit.


----------



## dezdem

While I'm listening music via EMU-0204, the 4th core of my CPU used by 100% (like a sine).
 [img=http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/66/7e/667e89a99ada573f27a99054de47151a.png]


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## sunwoo1213

Is there anyone who used HD598(32 Ohms), or similar low impedance headphones with E-MU 0204?
  
 It has 22 Ohms of  Output Impedance, and I heard it harms the sound quality with low impedance headphones.
  
 Is it ok to use 32 Ohm Headphone with E-MU 0204, without other amps?


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## Angelusmorti

Hi all! I hope this thread is still alive. Recently I've taken the risk and purchased the subject. My system is early 2015 MacBook air, MacOS X El Capitan 10.11.5 and E-MU 0204 usb.
 It actually works not bad without noticeable bugs.
 My question is how to make it work in "Direct" mode with Audirvana plus. The reason is, as I understand, in "Not direct" mode the sound goes through the Core Audio. In direct mode Audirvana says the track is loading endlessly, or it plays but the sound is toooooooo sloooooooow. No matter what I've tried to change in resampling settings - nothing helps. I have only these two options.
  
 http://img.prntscr.com/img?url=http://i.imgur.com/Mqq61Uf.png


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## Reticuli2

Sorry, I don't know anything about direct mode on a Mac.  On a Windows 7 machine, though, going between VLC and Chrome I have to frequently disable/enable the 0204 in Sound Devices after it stops functioning, though.  Seems like some kind of bug.


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