# Q: High gain? Low gain? Quality difference?



## Dougeefresh

So I have E9 and it has high and low gain switch.  I know what the switch does but is there a quality difference between the two? I never understood a point of having the two when I can easily just use high gain unless there is any SQ difference, which I must say don't see any.


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## FallenAngel

Hmm... same circuit, a pair of resistors swapped out for another set of different value... question is about "sound quality"?


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## Dougeefresh

Yes, the question is about "sound quality." Sorry for sounding like a noob but that's because I am when it comes to amps. So why is there high/low gain if there is no difference other than one having low resistance and the other high resistance?


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## SanJoseCanJunkie

Because really low impedance, high sensitivity cans like Grados are way too loud with most high-gain settings on amps.


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## atothex

I thought high gain was always technically worse in terms of distortion, not taking into account stability.


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## sridhar3

Quote: 





atothex said:


> I thought high gain was always technically worse in terms of distortion, not taking into account stability.


 

 x2.  I was under the impression that gain adds noise.  My amp, when at the low gain setting with the volume pot at 0, is completely silent, but when at high gain setting with the volume pot at 0, there's a slight hiss.


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## Dougeefresh

So there is a difference in SQ, it seems like? I wondered why when you can easily adjust the volume to compensate for an increase with low imp. phones there is high and low gain...


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## El_Doug

Indeed - when you have higher gain, you have a higher amplification factor, and thus any noise will be amplified more
   
  Unless stability becomes an issue, you always want to use the lowest gain possible, with the pot as high as possible.  by doing so, you will have no wasted, excess gain that you compensate for via the pot


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## Dougeefresh

Exactly the answer I was looking for! Thank you!


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## kostalex

Low gain sounded better to me in most cases, even with HD650. And I want to learn why.


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## Dougeefresh

Been searching about this topic but it's surprisingly difficult to find more scientific reasons but I did find this from Wikipedia:
   
*Gain*   In electronics, gain is a measure of the ability of a circuit (often an amplifier) to increase the power or amplitude of a signal from the input to the output. It is usually defined as the mean ratio of the signal output of a system to the signal input of the same system.
   
*Noise*
  Amplifiers generate random voltage at the output even when there is no signal applied. This can be due to thermal noise and flicker noise of the devices. For applications with high gain or high bandwidth, noise becomes a very important consideration.
   
  It looks like when gain is increased noise is introduced (or amplify what was existing like El_Doug said) into the system.


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## SanJoseCanJunkie

Many potentiometers have channel imbalances at the low end of the scale, making adjustments difficult with high-gain outputs with low-impedance headphones.  Additionally, stepped attenuators often offer limited levels of adjustments on the lower volume spectrum.
   
  You should seriously try some Grados, or low-impedance IEMs, out of a high output amplifier with a stepped attenuator, and then you will see why hi/low gain adjustments are needed.
  
  Quote: 





dougeefresh said:


> So there is a difference in SQ, it seems like? I wondered why when you can easily adjust the volume to compensate for an increase with low imp. phones there is high and low gain...


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## Rylo

This thread should be stickied. Succinct, easy to understand, and --- aside from the second comment --- very informative.


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## tomb

Quote: 





rylo said:


> This thread should be stickied. Succinct, easy to understand, and --- aside from the second comment --- very informative.


 
  Sorry, the second comment was the most on-point remark in this thread.  The OP asked about "quality difference."  Every amplifier has residual noise.  Boost the gain so that the load's threshold is lower than that noise floor and you'll hear it.  It doesn't mean the sound quality of the amp was affected - only that the noise floor was raised.  They're two different things.


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## Rylo

Quote: 





tomb said:


> Sorry, the second comment was the most on-point remark in this thread.  The OP asked about "quality difference."  Every amplifier has residual noise.  Boost the gain so that the load's threshold is lower than that noise floor and you'll hear it.  It doesn't mean the sound quality of the amp was affected - only that the noise floor was raised.  They're two different things.


 

 There's a difference between responding to a question with a question (which wasn't informative at all), and then what you just did, which is to explain why. As a complete noob myself, the rest of the thread explained a lot.


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## tomb

Quote: 





rylo said:


> There's a difference between responding to a question with a question (which wasn't informative at all), and then what you just did, which is to explain why. As a complete noob myself, the rest of the thread explained a lot.


 
   
  Quote: 





> "Hmm... same circuit, a pair of resistors swapped out for another set of different value... question is about "sound quality"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry, but I know this individual well and he is as knowledgeable as anyone around here..  He was trying to be *instructive*.  Changing the gain with a set of different value resistors - by definition, has _*nothing*_ to do with the "quality" of the sound.  Perhaps he should've elaborated, but as I said earlier, the point was well made, IMHO.
   
  Want to change the "sound quality" of an amp?  Then suggest changing the sound-affecting components - capacitors in the signal path, opamps, buffers, transistors (in zero-feedback topologies), etc.  However, changing gain does nothing but change the relative position of the volume knob in relation to the output volume.
   
  Yes, there are instances where the gain may be jacked up enough that it's easy to tell that there's some residual noise or hiss in the output.  However, that is never going to change the sound signature of the amp.
   
  Maybe that explanation helps?


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## mikeaj

Different resistors -> changing feedback loop -> different gain -> different performance (though not by a human-significant amount, especially if not looking at a CMoy or something where you'd be adjusting the gain of the output stage), not just amplifying signal and noise by a different amount.
   
  Sometimes perceived sound quality differences are attributed to more trivial things than this though.
   
  Though really, I wouldn't really expect anything much other than the difference in volume (or noise if you're adjusting volume to compensate).
   
   
  Anyway, as for things that practically matter, as explained earlier, use a lower gain if volume is loud enough. Avoiding a hypersensitive and possibly channel imbalanced range of a volume control is a good idea. If you never listen that quietly with whatever source output level and headphones you're using, yet you don't hear any noise from the amp, then it's probably all moot.


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## gr34td3str0y3r

sorry for resurrecting a very old thread.
  
 Traditionally I was always wary of using high gain. First reason was raising the noise floor, but I remember reading (of course I can't find it now) *that different gain setting change the inductance (?) of the output*. One of my amps is the Marantz HD-dac1 and I think it was in that amp's forum that people where explaining this. It has 3 gain settings. And while something like the HD650 will work on any of the 3 gain settings it matches for example the middle gain setting better. I have no idea if this is true or the science backs this up. When people start talking about the math behind driver/amp impedance, phase, voltage needed to drive the coils vs watts, my head starts to hurt. 
  
 From my experience: 
  
 With something like the O2 amp if you put headphones in (and no signal) and crank it it to max on low gain, you will hear noise. It was explained to me by JDS, that yes the 02 is "silent" but only up to something like 100dB or 105dB, which realistically is pretty much max safe listening levels and If you are listening to Skrillex at 105dB, you are not going to be bothered by a tiny bit of noise. ANYWAY, turn the gain up on the 02 and this noise floor raises. Not really a big deal, and probably still not noticible under actualy listening condition (i.e., music), but it was one reason I never wanted to use high gain on amps. 
  
 I just got my hands on the Valhalla 2 and I was running HD650 on low gain, I was listening to 90% power/volume on a few songs. The thing was running HOT! So I was thinking maybe I should run these on high gain instead. 
  
 Did a bit of testing. Crank the Valhalla 2 up to 100% volume on low gain, no noise. High gain? No noise at 100%.
  
 High gain it is for me with Valhalla and HD650.


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## TheClue1107

(Running on a Fiio E10k )
  
 High gain is mostly used for a power hungry headphone, such as the AKG Q701 for example. If your amp is not powerful enough to drive the phones on L gain, then switching to H gain will add more volume. Be warned, the sound will start to distort at higher volumes on high gain, and you can actually run the risk of damaging your headphones.
  
 So you wouldn't use something like a pair of M50s or Sennheiser HD598 on high gain, cuz it doesn't need it lol, and it'll probably cause some damage. 
  
 In terms of sound quality, as I said before, it'll distort at higher volumes. Try testing the sound if you want, you'll probably hear little to no difference.


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## kejar31

A potentiometer is nothing but a variable resistor... High and low gain set the starting point for this resistance using static reisitors before the pot takes effect..

Think of a pot as a water faucet... You turn it on and you get water... The pressure is determined by how much you turn the knob.. Now think of the static resistors (high and low gain) as the valve under your sink.. If you turn that valve down.. You will limit the amount of pressure you can get from your faucet using the knob.

Now think about that and then come to your own conclusion on if this would effect sound quality, outside of the beginning noise floor


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## Pharmaboy

This looks like an old thread--not sure anyone is still watching. However, last weekend I went through quite a lot of testing of gain vs sound, and found surprising results.
  
 The reason was that I had purchased a used 2012 v.2 Matrix M Stage HPA-1 headphone amp/preamp, and was shocked at how good it sounded when I dropped it into my system (used as a preamp). I had purchased it to use in a desktop system I'm setting up for my brother, and had no intentions of using it my own desktop system--but after auditioning this thing, I realized that it would be perfect for my own system, so went out and found a really cherry 2013 HPA-1 for a routine test, expecting it to sound the same as the 1st one--but to my surprise, it was somewhat brighter (unwelcome IMO)...and seemed to require more rotation of the volume pot to get equivalent volume.
  
 So I flipped the units over and compared gain settings (the HPA-1 has a 3 position gain setting for each channel: 0 dB; +10db; or 20dB). As it turns out, due to the very confusing labeling of the gain switch diagram, when I'd set the switches on the 1st unit, what I thought was 0 dB for each channel (ie, the lowest gain setting) was actually +20dB (maximum gain). By contrast, the second unit actually WAS set at the lowet gain setting.
  
 So purely by accident, I discovered that the highest gain setting sounds slightly "warmer" (ie, less bright) than the lowest gain setting on the HPA-1. Bearing in mind that the HPA-1 is a relatively warm/euphonic HP amp/preamp to begin with, and that the amt of "brightness" I'm talking about is relatively small--it was still a surprising result, the reverse of what one would expect.
  
 As mentioned earlier in this string, higher gain should theoretically be associated with lower noise; and to whatever extent circuit noise correlates with brightness, I would expect there to be less brightness at the lowest gain settings.
  
 I'm still puzzled by this...


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## Seasho

Weighing in from an audio engineering perspective - if you're working with an "active" system vs a "passive" one, gain will introduce more electricity into the signal, effectively "amping it up", more electricity introduced to the signal = more saturation / distortion.
  
 So not only will the perceived noise floor be raised, the tonal characteristics, saturation / distortion, and harmonics will also be affected.
  
 Additionally you may notice an increase in low end / mud as these frequencies require more electricity to be driven effectively - so there could be a loss of "clarity", but added warmth.


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## desik

Resurrecting this thread, because it has to.
  
 Did an extensive test today on Gustard H10+V5i upgrade, LCD-2.1, Silver Dragon 3 cable.
*Subject of comparison: gain setting -6 vs gain setting +12*, volume matched "by ear".
  
 After half a day back-and-forth with ~10 songs and test patterns, I finally settled on sub-bass test tones.
  
*Result: on gain +12 bass extension is definitely better than on gain -6.* The lower the frequency, the easier to hear the difference. On 40 hz I needed to repeat listening ~10 times t be sure I hear the diff. on 30 hz - 3-4 times. On 20 hz - it was obvious from first listen.
  
 In all cases  I was using rather low volume. On 40 hz test it would be at ~15% with high gain, ~30% at low gain.
  
 Conclusion: high gain could help even if you are far from maximum volume. It seems to increase total power which is most obvious in bass. But I also agree, on some amps, especially portables, high gain dramatically increases noise. So there's a trade-off involved.


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## Pharmaboy

Wow--these are surprising & thought-provoking results, desik.
  
 In my post above, I reported a very small subjective difference in "warmth" between different gain settings of the Matrix M Stage HPA-1 amp. But at no point in my comparison of various gain settings, using pretty good quality desktop speakers + subwoofer at a fairly loud volume setting, did I detect any subjective differencex in the bass at different gain settings. Not that I was looking for that, but I would have noticed, since the deepest bass can be felt as well as heard--and my 5-6 cut audition list happened to feature plenty of quality bass.
  
 But with the evident quality of your equipment chain, and the fact that you heard this via headphones, which by their nature facilitate focus on details of the sound--also the fact that you apparently were looking at graphical depiction of frequencies you were hearing--well, it's kind of hard to doubt what you're reporting here.
  
 Obviously this finding could be specific to the Gustard H10. Then again, I really need to compare those HPA-1 gain settings again, this time with a good pair of headphones.


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## FumblingFoo

desik said:


> *Result: on gain +12 bass extension is definitely better than on gain -6.* The lower the frequency, the easier to hear the difference. On 40 hz I needed to repeat listening ~10 times t be sure I hear the diff. on 30 hz - 3-4 times. On 20 hz - it was obvious from first listen.
> 
> Conclusion: high gain could help even if you are far from maximum volume. It seems to increase total power which is most obvious in bass. But I also agree, on some amps, especially portables, high gain dramatically increases noise. So there's a trade-off involved.


 
  
 I was wondering the same thing about myself. I kept noticing that higher gain made music seem to sound better and fuller on both my Violectric V281 and Schiit Lyr 2 for some reason. Thx!


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## desik

fumblingfoo said:


> I was wondering the same thing about myself. I kept noticing that higher gain made music seem to sound better and fuller on both my Violectric V281 and Schiit Lyr 2 for some reason. Thx!


 

 Yes, I actually first noticed the difference 2 weeks ago when listening to some symphonic metal. It was sounding a bit "fuller". Like gradual tonal transitions were more smeared out on low gain, but were more melodic on high gain. Then yesterday when listening to different songs I noticed that drums sound a bit sharper on high gain, and have their attack sort of blurred on low gain. But after repetitive listening I wasn't so sure anymore. Our brain tries to compensate what we hear with what we expect to hear, according to more knowledgeable folks.
  
 After many more trials, bass tones provided the most unmistakable difference. How big the diff is? 20 hz on low gain sounds somehow in between 20 and 30 hz at high gain. Headphones still produce plenty of 20hz, but it is more mixed with higher harmonics I guess. Add to this lower hearing acuity at 20hz, and even a small extra distortion can make a big difference.
  
 I would like to know a scientific explanation of this.


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## FumblingFoo

desik said:


> Yes, I actually first noticed the difference 2 weeks ago when listening to some symphonic metal. It was sounding a bit "fuller". Like gradual tonal transitions were more smeared out on low gain, but were more melodic on high gain. Then yesterday when listening to different songs I noticed that drums sound a bit sharper on high gain, and have their attack sort of blurred on low gain. But after repetitive listening I wasn't so sure anymore. Our brain tries to compensate what we hear with what we expect to hear, according to more knowledgeable folks.
> 
> After many more trials, bass tones provided the most unmistakable difference. How big the diff is? 20 hz on low gain sounds somehow in between 20 and 30 hz at high gain. Headphones still produce plenty of 20hz, but it is more mixed with higher harmonics I guess. Add to this lower hearing acuity at 20hz, and even a small extra distortion can make a big difference.
> 
> I would like to know a scientific explanation of this.


 
  
 Yes, I very much concur. My research tells me that gain simply makes the sound coming out of my amp at a given volume louder, so that if max volume at lower gain isn't enough, I can simply up the gain to get more power. And, that being constrained to the lower end of the volume is supposedly the range of lower sound quality for amps. But my brain tells me that even with gobs of power available in the higher end on a lesser gain, higher gain even at the lower end of volume adjustment makes for fuller sound with better bass. Google has not been my friend.


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## desik

Update: today I tried to compare what makes a bigger diff to SQ: custom cable or higher gain setting.
  
 Cables compared: ZMF stock 5 feet vs Silver Dragon 3 15 ft.
 Gains compared: -6db vs +6db vs +12/db on Gustard H10+V5i
 Headphones: LCD-2.1
 Music used: one symphony and one heavy metal song.
  
 Long story short:
*In music: SD3/+12 > SD3/+6 > SD3/-6 > ZMF/+12*
*In bass depth alone:* *ZMF/+12 > SD3/+6*
  
 Volume was carefully matched this time.
 In 20hz bass depth test tone I feel like cable makes smaller diff than the gain setting, possibly no diff at all.
  
 But in music cable makes a bigger difference than gain settings. I believe I heard the pros and cons of both. Still prefer the extra female voice sweetness of SD3 to the extra bite of high gain.
  
 Next time will try to compare different amps.


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## Pharmaboy

I really like the direction you're going in here, desik--not to mention the time & energy you're putting into chasing down these small (but significant) differences.
  
 When it comes to cable changes affecting sound, we may get stomped for saying this (it seems to be controversial on Head-Fi). I've been messing w/audio for years, at times w/pretty high-end gear. And I can report that most times I changed cables (interconnects or speaker cables), I heard at least some differences; sometimes it was subtle, and occasionally it was anything but. Often the changes were beneficial, but sometimes not.
  
 I never found any correlation between cost or design/engineering claims for the cable, and how much it improved sound (that would be too easy).
  
 My experience w/headphone listening is less extensive (not quite 2 years), but I've already had one positive experience. Recently wwapped the stock cable on my Fidelio X2's for an equal-length replacement made by Ghent Audio (link below)--3M, 3.5mm on one end, 6.35mm on the other, thick and sturdy/well clad, costing just 16.50 (!). I already loved the sound of these 'phones and didn't expect to hear anything by swapping cables--but I did. A little hard to put into words...the sound just opened up a bit, with a little more bass & soundstage (already strong points of these headphones), maybe a touch more clarity and a little less grain in the treble. Not earth-shaking changes, but audible.
  
 http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/d08.html
  
 I recommend Ghent Audio. These are well made, inexpensive cables. Xu Ghent treats customers well. Can't tell if he makes the kind of cables used in ZMF Omnis, but I'll bet they can be ordered as custom (custom audio cables are listed on the site). I hope to get a pair of ZMF Omnis in the next 6 months or so; I'll check that out.


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## FumblingFoo

Nice findings, desik 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, you've inspired me to do some testing of my own, finding similar results with the Violectric V281.
  
 The test track I used as "Animals" by Maroon 5, using a pair of Beyer T90's on the Violectric V850 -> V281, a warm-neutral amp with lots of power. I adjusted the volume each time to my maximum comfortable listening level, which is ranged from 85 - 92dba within the track.
  
 From -12 to 0 to +12 gain, there was increasing extension of lower bass in the 20hz range, with the low level hum gaining more presence and going from the background to more in line with the foreground, but well meshed. Bass response seemed to remain about the same.
  
 I'll have to do more in-depth testing to tell whether or not there are other sonic differences, but I'm a bit of a newbie so I can't guarantee that I'll be able to listen critically enough to provide results.


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## desik

desik said:


> Resurrecting this thread, because it has to.
> 
> Did an extensive test today on Gustard H10+V5i upgrade, LCD-2.1, Silver Dragon 3 cable.
> *Subject of comparison: gain setting -6 vs gain setting +12*, volume matched "by ear".
> ...


 

 Repeated this experiment today with matched volume. -6db @ 100% == +12db @ 30% in Windows.
  
 This time it was much harder to figure out the diff. Yet something was there. At first I was not sure whether it's volume difference or depth difference. But on high gain, 20hz were putting more pressure on my ears than low gain same volume. I was able to confirm yesterday's observations only after listening to 25hz first, then 20hz. Took me 2 hours. Oh, I'm likely crazy.
  
 This also confirms that differences are very subtle, that's why cable makes a bigger diff in my system.


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## tamleo

In my experience with the LCD-2 and some Schiit amps, the high gain mode always sounds better. At low gain, the sound becomes too soft, has less attacks, impacts. Generally it is a vague and too laidback sound. I dont know the reason.
 I have not tried using amp with iems but i will in near future ^^


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## elmura

The best gain is NO gain. 

Old school thinking, with old school amps was that volume setting should be in the middle of the knobs range.

Also, many people thought that using too high a volume was bad. 

However, the truth is, the volume control is actually an attenuator. That means that at the low end of the range, the incoming signal is being restricted heavily. Ie. It is being throttled.

Conversely, at the maximum volume range, the incoming signal is free to pass through the amplifier.

Gain is a stage that causes the incoming signal level to be multiplied (amplified). With that comes noise & distortion.

So, for technically better sound, no gain is better. 

Gain only becomes necessary if the volume at maximum is not loud enough!

If you're hearing an improvement at higher gain, it's likely that the SPL is slightly higher, or that you're hearing a distortion that you like! 
Proper comparative testing requires measuring the amp output level to match volume setting at different gain levels. The next best is using a sound level meter with white or pink noise.

- Elmura Audio

Android powered


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## desik

elmura said:


> Gain only becomes necessary if the volume at maximum is not loud enough!
> 
> If you're hearing an improvement at higher gain, it's likely that the SPL is slightly higher, or that you're hearing a distortion that you like!
> Proper comparative testing requires measuring the amp output level to match volume setting at different gain levels. The next best is using a sound level meter with white or pink noise.
> ...


 
 Yeah, I know all the theory. Yet pretty much I hear an improvement at higher gain. Very subtle, yet audible. Looks like at least 2 other people do as well. I matched the volume using a sound meter + pink noise. When switching gain from low to high I would reduce the digital volume accordingly. My output is set to 24 bit, so this should not cause loss of resolution.


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## greggf

Hmm.  I notice higher sound quality with my Bryston BHA-1 on the low gain setting with both Sony Z7 and Sennheiser HD800S.


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## loveha

tamleo said:


> In my experience with the LCD-2 and some Schiit amps, the high gain mode always sounds better. At low gain, the sound becomes too soft, has less attacks, impacts. Generally it is a vague and too laidback sound. I dont know the reason.
> I have not tried using amp with iems but i will in near future ^^




I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to amps and for that matter much of anything else headphone related. I did notice with my current Schiit amp and AKG K702 that same experience with high gain sounding better. When I would switch to low gain, music just sounded dull to me. Have not tried my IEMs either. Will be something I will try later after this weekend. Will also try it again with my K7XX headphones, and my K553s when I get them.


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## stalepie

Does switching to high gain increase output impedence? I find bass to have more rumble and overall the music to have greater attack with it enabled on TEAC HA-P50. (It's different from simply turning the volume up).


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## professor55

I'm testing the high gain vs. low gain theory for myself with a Cayin C5 headphone amp, a re-cabled set of GR07BE IEM's, out of an iPhone SE set at 80% vol, playing Spotify at HQ. 
On Allan Holdsworth's "Clown", from SAND, all the low end stuff, like the intro keyboard swells, the toms in the drum into, and then the bass guitar seem to have more "weight" on high gain. 
Low gain sounds clear, accurate, and open, with good low end, but high gain at the same volume just has a touch more beef to me. 
I'm then wondering how adjusting the iPhone volume would affect it. 
So at 50% iPhone volume on high gain, the beef is still there, but the openness of the low gain I heard is there. 
Seems like it's high gain with 50% source volume that sounds best. 
Less distortion maybe? 
Great thread guys! 
I'm ordering a set of custom JH 16v2 pros and a HA-2 SE next week, so the experimentation will continue...


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## FallenAngel

Captain here and here are the facts:

- Higher gain means more amplification, including noise.
- Volume pots aren't perfect and track better at the middle.
- Digital volume control doesn't degrade quality, usually.
- Subjective impressions are worthless.
- Louder volume sounds "better" than lower volume. It's demonstrated in experiments. This is why higher gain vs lower gain listening tests may become unreliable as the person must adjust volume. Without a way to measure volume, this is unreliable. 

In a properly designed amp, gain adjustment will have higher noise at higher gain. The "sound quality" will not change because it cannot change unless there are issues in the circuit. 

Most amps will never include gain adjustment as this requires changing the resistor values in the circuit. They might just add inline resistors to drop the input signal a bit (exactly what a pot dies).


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## Pharmaboy

Just love this thread! A lot to learn here on a subtly confusing/non-intuitive topic.
  
 One of these days I'll test the effect of higher gain on sound quality for myself. It will be less than perfectly scientific, since I'll only be able to match volume by ear.
  
 Still, I'm interested enough to want to experiment w/it...


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## LayLay

gr34td3str0y3r said:


> With something like the O2 amp if you put headphones in (and no signal) and crank it it to max on low gain, you will hear noise. It was explained to me by JDS, that yes the 02 is "silent" but only up to something like 100dB or 105dB, which realistically is pretty much max safe listening levels and If you are listening to Skrillex at 105dB, you are not going to be bothered by a tiny bit of noise.



105dB safe listening volume? LMAO. With Skrillex at 105dB you're getting tinnitus in a jiffy.


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## Pharmaboy

laylay said:


> 105dB safe listening volume? LMAO. With Skrillex at 105dB you're getting tinnitus in a jiffy.


 
  
 I already have tinnitus--lots of it. I'm one of the lucky ones whose tinnitus is white noise-like rather than note-based. Still, it's a big factor in my headphone listening, which I've learned I can't do as often or at as high a volume as I'd prefer (if I push it, tinnitus flares, headaches come, and it becomes very clear "it's time to stop").
  
 So consider my biases when I say some on head-fi seem to listen at levels that (to me, at least) are shockingly high. I've seen threads elsewhere on Head-Fi when people who own the same amps & headphones talk about what gain settings they use--usually in light of the output voltage of their source DACs. Sometimes when posters compare notes in this way, they discover that they listen the headphones for extended periods are volumes far higher than others are doing. Those threads are interesting and a little horrifying to me...
  
 This is not a "moral" issue. There's no right or wrong--just a continuum stretching from moderate volume music enjoyment all the way to headbanging volume & destruction of hearing. What's surprising to me is that people actively enjoy headphone listening at volumes that will pretty almost certainly cause hearing loss, now or later.
  
 It makes me recall a number of very loud music concerts in my youth. In those days I actively enjoyed volumes that today would cause instant migraine. I didn't wake up to the danger of loudness until I hit my 40's. Oddly enough, it wasn't music that made me realize this--it was power equipment. I began routinely cutting the grass w/lawn tractors that made high decibel noise; also started using loud snowblowers; and doing frequent woodworking w/table saws, routers, planar, etc (planar & router in particular are extremely loud up close). Everyone recommended ear protection for these activities, so I dutifully began using sturdy/effective ear protection & have ever since.
  
 Only later, when tinnitus showed up, did I realize the damage had already been years before. I now use ear plugs to listen to loud live music, have for ~10 yrs.
  
 But here's a key difference between my volume issues & what I read about on Head-Fi: I never heard a pair of headphones in any serious way until ~2 yrs ago. My exposure to high volumes was almost entirely related to live music. But with headphones, one can easily dial it up to maximum volume, as often and for as long as desired. That's really playing russian roulette w/one's hearing.


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## Chuck Canada

Thanks I actually used this as sort of a reference as to rather or not I should use a pair of low ohm headphones in my fiio e09k.
  
 I wont, even on low gain setting I think I just might turn it on and hear a poof then nothing at all so better to be safe than sorry.


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## Pharmaboy

stalepie said:


> Does switching to high gain increase output impedence? I find bass to have more rumble and overall the music to have greater attack with it enabled on TEAC HA-P50. (It's different from simply turning the volume up).


 
  
 Just re-reading some posts and stumbled over this one. When I first read it, I didn't understand its implications.
  
 Right now on the ZMF Eikon & Atticus thread, several Head-Fi'ers have embarked on experiments regarding increasing/decreasing the output impedance of a given SS amp (using adapters w/high quality, appropriate-value resisters inside)--to see what effect this will have on the Atticus headphone in particular. This issue came up because a number of posts by different members suggested that:

Compared to the Eikon, the Atticus seems unusually "picky" about the amps that drive it.
A number of people get great results with tube HP amps, claiming that the midrange of this headphone "opens up." Note that tube amps on average have higher output impedance (ie, seen at the headphone load) than do SS amps.
BUT...balanced outputs, which are said to sound wonderful with all the ZMF headphones, are only really available on SS amps.

Paradoxically, even on super-powerful SS amps, some people observed that the Atticus did not open up as expected with all that power (amps like the Milo, Violectric V281, etc). So it's apparently not a power (voltage & current) issue. In other words, pure gain, up or down, seems to not matter as much as somewhat higher impedance.
There is a SS amp with variable output settings (Garage1217 "Project Polaris: http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_015.htm), and a couple of comments about this amp suggested selecting the 2nd or 3rd highest of the output impedance settings had a effect on HP sound (things like slight loss of bass impact traded for greater soundstage and midrange presence)
  
 Those of us who obsess over the Atticus are watching that thread with great interest. I am extremely interested in the Atticus and own 2 uber-powerful SS amps (V281/balanced & Audio GD SA-31SE), as well as 1 moderate power one (Liquid Carbon/balanced)--so I'd love to know that I can use these amps w/an Atticus & vary output impedance via adapters to get better (or at least different) sound.
  
 All to say this post by @stalepie is quite prescient/insightful, as it turns out...


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## winders

This is an interesting topic that I have just started to delve into. I noticed that, after volume matching, that I think the higher gain setting on my Schiit Audio Mjolnir 2 sounds better to me than the lower gain setting. I found out that Schiit is using more negative feedback in the Mjolnir 2 to get the lower gain. Once I found that out, what I was hearing made sense. After all, how can more negative feedback made the sound better? It might make the specs like THD look better. But I don't see how it could make the music better.


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## Pharmaboy

winders said:


> This is an interesting topic that I have just started to delve into. I noticed that, after volume matching, that I think the higher gain setting on my Schiit Audio Mjolnir 2 sounds better to me than the lower gain setting. I found out that Schiit is using more negative feedback in the Mjolnir 2 to get the lower gain. Once I found that out, what I was hearing made sense. After all, how can more negative feedback made the sound better? It might make the specs like THD look better. But I don't see how it could make the music better.


 
  
 Use of higher global negative feedback would only make the sound "better" if the electronic design in which it was applied was notably deficient in power supply filtering; used  cheap capacitors and/or opamps; had iffy grounding; etc.
  
 In other words, when global feedback is used like a band-aid on a bullet hole, you _really _need it for the sound to be quasi-respectable. But if basic design parameters of the amp are robust & well-implemented, feedback shouldn't play a big role. Many high-end preamps and amps use no global feedback at all.


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## winders

pharmaboy said:


> Use of higher global negative feedback would only make the sound "better" if the electronic design in which it was applied was notably deficient in power supply filtering; used  cheap capacitors and/or opamps; had iffy grounding; etc.
> 
> In other words, when global feedback is used like a band-aid on a bullet hole, you _really _need it for the sound to be quasi-respectable. But if basic design parameters of the amp are robust & well-implemented, feedback shouldn't play a big role. Many high-end preamps and amps use no global feedback at all.


 

 The Mjolnir 2 is a well designed and well implemented amp......I don't see how adding feedback can do anything but make the specs look better while altering the sound more. Note I am not saying that is the intent of the low gain mode.


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## Swiftfalcon

The way I figure out gain and volume is by feel. Try different settings and depending on headphone, music, dac, mood figure out the one that sounds best. 

Gain is kinda like the shifts on a car, volume like the gas.


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## romevi

Man alive. What a thread! 

I just got into this world and forgot I had an older model Fiio E11. I took it out and plugged it in my Note8 with Ath-m50x (I know, I know). The higher gain made it sound "better" to me. I have the Note8 at 90% volume and the amp between 2-4, depending on my surroundings. 

Dunno. The sound just sounded better--"fuller," as some people have mentioned.


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## tomb

winders said:


> This is an interesting topic that I have just started to delve into. I noticed that, after volume matching, that I think the higher gain setting on my Schiit Audio Mjolnir 2 sounds better to me than the lower gain setting. I found out that Schiit is using more negative feedback in the Mjolnir 2 to get the lower gain. Once I found that out, what I was hearing made sense. After all, how can more negative feedback made the sound better? It might make the specs like THD look better. But I don't see how it could make the music better.





Pharmaboy said:


> Use of higher global negative feedback would only make the sound "better" if the electronic design in which it was applied was notably deficient in power supply filtering; used  cheap capacitors and/or opamps; had iffy grounding; etc.
> 
> In other words, when global feedback is used like a band-aid on a bullet hole, you _really _need it for the sound to be quasi-respectable. But if basic design parameters of the amp are robust & well-implemented, feedback shouldn't play a big role. Many high-end preamps and amps use no global feedback at all.



Many opamps, tubes, or even discrete solid-state amplifier circuits are not stable at low gain.  After all, the point of the circuit or device is to _amplify_.  If you lower the gain, it's going against the purpose for which the device or circuit was designed.  That's only to explain a possible reason for increasing the feedback, but a likely one.  Technically, it has no effect on sound quality, but practically speaking, you don't want the circuit to oscillate - then it does affect sound quality.

Fallen Angel gave a good summary in his last post.  However, you all should realize that there are many more variables at play.  These variables make relating personal experiences with gain settings on your own equipment pretty much useless.

The variables in play here - not to mention differences in amplifiers - are your sources and your headphones.  Sources are supposed to adhere to an output level standard, but they don't always.  Headphone are obviously all over the map with regard to sensitivity.  This means that everyone is going to get different results, depending on those factors.

The idea, as Fallen Angel said, is to have a gain adjusted so that's in the middle of the volume knob travel for your source and headphones.  This provides a couple of things - 1) it results in the greatest adjustment between soft and loud, and as he stated, 2) even the best, highest quality volume pots have trouble with level matching between channels at the extreme ends of volume control travel.  Adjust for a high gain, where you barely have to turn the knob, and you may hear sound leaking through the output even when the volume knob is racked to the zero volume position.  Too low gain, and you may lose dynamics and risk not even approaching adequate listening levels.

Thankfully, the gain is not that critical for most setups.  It's very possible to design a circuit that sets the gain so that most mainstream headphones and sources will result in the best volume travel adjustments.  However, there are always exceptions.  Mfrs sometime give you the capability to adjust gain in those circumstances.


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## lowrider007

Couple of questions regarding gain settings on an amplifier,

When a manufacturer stats it's ratings, say for example 200 ohms : 600 mW, is this the rating @ low gain or maximum gain? can I get 600mw power at low gain?


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