# Pick me a power conditioner



## compuryan

hello all,
 Before I go nuts upgrading my cables, I've been thinking about spending some money on something to get cleaner power. I was thinking about a decent passive AC line conditioner which I could plug both my DAC1 and beta22 into at the same time. I know PS Audio makes some good stuff. I am willing to buy used. What would you suggest?

 thanks,
 Ryan


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## robm321

I got the Chang Lightspeed CLS 6400 used and never looked back. My issue was that I didn't want anything to change or make the sound worse. I originally just wanted protected power. 

 The Chang actually does help a bit with the SQ while not really affecting the sound negatively at all. I highly recommend it. I'll probably never upgrade. I haven't heard them, but Tice also makes some good conidtioners as well.


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## grawk

The one grand engima is selling (brickwall) is a good one


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## slwiser

^2x at a great price, I have three of these types around my equipment.


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## Dan Millheim

PS Audio PPP. Buy it and never have to worry about your power again!


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## David Pritchard

I also have the Ps Audio equipment and it does work and is fairly price. Certainly if you buy the Premier power Regenerator($1499.00 with 1 year warranty direct from PS Audio rebuilt) you will have very good newly created A/C. I great value buy is a PS Duet conditioner for $199.00. It filters the A/C power at your A/C duplex socket. Add 1-3 PS noise harvesters and this is a nice passive system. Replace your crumie standard wall socket with a PS audio wall socket for $40.00. Last add the power or standard power cord of your choice. 
 Better A/C to your system will be audible. What you listen to will be more engaging, less fatiguing, and more musical.
 Good listening.
 David Pritchard


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The one grand engima is selling (brickwall) is a good one_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^2x at a great price, I have three of these types around my equipment._

 

Do you have pictures or links? Thanks.


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## grawk

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...tector-403273/


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## compuryan

I only plan on plugging in my DAC1 and beta22, so I only need two outlets. Therefore, I don't think the 8-outlet brickwall is for me. The B-Stock PS Audio Duet looks nice. It has two different kinds of filters, nice outlets, and a surge protector.


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## hew

I endorse the Duet as well. They turn up used from time-to-time on Audiogon for very reasonable prices.


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## V-Duh

Does anyone have any experience with the Juice Box One or Juice Box Junior power conditioners from Silver Circle Audio? I can't seem to find any info...


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## MikeW

PS audio Duet is excellent, I bought one a few weeks ago and made a nice improvement, and peace of mind, Most of the time when I see them used they go for 200$.. there are a few places that sell them NIB for that, Crutchfield and Cryo Parts, i bought mine from cryo parts with free cryo treatment, for 212$ shipped. 

CryoParts PS Audio Power Filters


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...tector-403273/_

 

This works very well in my HDTV setup for blacker blacks as well; i.e. better contrasts.


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## spacemanspliff

The brickwall is a good one.

 I use a Tripplite 250 and it works great.

 Ps audio makes good stuff too but it is out of my budget usually. I think that the Op will do dandy with the brickwall or tripp lite. Ori of Oritek suggests the Tripp lite conditioners but only the metal versions. They are dense little units.


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## Pars

I'd recommend the Brickwall as well. So what if it has 8 outlets?


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I only plan on plugging in my DAC1 and beta22, so I only need two outlets. Therefore, I don't think the 8-outlet brickwall is for me. The B-Stock PS Audio Duet looks nice. It has two different kinds of filters, nice outlets, and a surge protector._

 

You need two outlets now, give it 6 months and ...


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## CrazyRay

I use a unit from Perma Power.
 I have my whole system running through it.
 It is heavy duty and will handle anything you can throw at it!
 I know it works because after 2am the Power Line Voltage light moves to normal.
 I found mine on e-bay.


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## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CrazyRay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use a unit from Perma Power.
 I have my whole system running through it.
 It is heavy duty and will handle anything you can throw at it!
 I know it works because after 2am the Power Line Voltage light moves to normal.
 I found mine on e-bay.




_

 

Good call, I just ordered one of those.


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## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...tector-403273/_

 

That isnt a passive filter. Actually most suggestions here have not been passive filters apart from the noise harvesters. In fact the PermaPower above is probably OK to regulate your power to an air conditioner, but probably adds more sine wave distortion and RF noise than not having it.

 Go with David Pritchards advice.


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## zx10guy

I use Equi=Tech balanced power products in my main system. The science behind it is pretty sound plus it's used by various artists and recording studios which you can get a list of on their website.

 Here's the rack mount unit (Equi=Tech 2Q) I use to feed my front end electronics and my rear surround 2 channel power amp. The unit doesn't restrict current flow at all as you have to have a 20A circuit to run the unit. The unfiltered plugs do not have any EMI/RFI filtering components and are directly tapped into the balanced power transformer.










 I also use their hardwired units. One unit feeds only my Bryston 6B-ST amp and the other feeds both my Velodyne subs.






 The unit on the left is the 1.5BQ rated at 15A which feeds my Bryston amp. The unit on the right is the 2BQ rated at 20A which feeds my two Velodyne subs.

 Along with all this, I have the mandatory whole house surge protector at my service panel.


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## fishski13

compuryan,
 why not DIY? this could be interesting:
"DIY Hydra" Power Conditioner on 10 Audio

 i haven't personally tried it. i built a true star-grounded recepticle box with 2 isolated duplexes and no daisy-chaining/cascading, similar to the Hot Box (sans filtering) at VH Audio - Audio cables, parts, and tweaks for audiophiles. i also have a dedicated circuit, with the house breaker box literally 6 ft away in the basement below my hi-fi room. if a dedicated circuit is do-able, i would do this first.


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## compuryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_compuryan,
 why not DIY? this could be interesting:
"DIY Hydra" Power Conditioner on 10 Audio

 i haven't personally tried it. i built a true star-grounded recepticle box with 2 isolated duplexes and no daisy-chaining/cascading, similar to the Hot Box (sans filtering) at VH Audio - Audio cables, parts, and tweaks for audiophiles. i also have a dedicated circuit, with the house breaker box literally 6 ft away in the basement below my hi-fi room. if a dedicated circuit is do-able, i would do this first._

 

oooo I just might have to try that. But such a huge difference just from noise suppression capacitors? What the heck is in all the fancy PS audio stuff?

 DIYing a hydra certainly would be more cost-effective than buying a PS Audio Duet. But I wonder if it'd be better or not.


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## MikeW

would it really be that much cheaper? The Duet has 2 power ports in it, at 50$ a piece that's 100$ already, even if you went with somthing like a porter port, or cryo'ed hospital grade, your still looking at 75$ just for the power inlets. then the chasis, other parts, a build time. If you were paying full retail for the duet i'd understand, but New in box for 200$, it's tuff to beat. Brickwall is good for protection, im not sure how good it is for sound quality, i'd be weary, same for big isolation transformers, good for DAC's and digital gear, not so great for analog pre amp's and amplifers. I think the brickwall units cost as much or more then ps audio duet too....


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oooo I just might have to try that. But such a huge difference just from noise suppression capacitors? What the heck is in all the fancy PS audio stuff?

 DIYing a hydra certainly would be more cost-effective than buying a PS Audio Duet. But I wonder if it'd be better or not._

 

i don't know. i had a $50 PS duplex that my power box plugged into but thought it was a piece of junk - well, it didn't cope well with 10 awg Romex. i'm not saying their products are garbage - maybe i'm a bad electrician. i have a Furutech now that is better built. 

 my recepticle box has 2 non-ferrous Pass/Seymour duplexes from vhaudio.com. i used electrical tape and rubber washers to isolate the duplexes. my DAC1/transport are on one duplex and my amps on the other. 

 for the power cord, i used the star-quad and 10 awg ground wire Chris offers with a cheap male Wattgate at the wall end. 2 of the 4 wires feeds the hot and neutral of each duplex. each duplex has it's own ground pig-tail to the star ground point with the box power cable ground.

 i've never used a power conditioner. as a former Naim owner, i followed the old party line that said that they limit dynamics. old habits die hard. my dedicated circuit is a Furutech duplex mounted less than a foot away from my breaker box. the aforementioned star-quad power cord is 8 ft long and is squirreled down through a return furnace vent to the duplex off the breaker box. 

 of all of this, the most noticable improvement came from a dedicated circuit. i honestly would hate to be without it. for those that can't have one, a power conditioner may be a necessity.

 YMMV.


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## compuryan

I'm not going to build the Hydra. It just seems too simple. I could solder a noise supression vishnay resistor across the AC hot and neutral spots on the IEC inside my beta22 and achieve the same sonic improvements as building a hydra, because that is all that is inside the hydra, aside from sockets and a circuit breaker.


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## CrazyRay

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In fact the PermaPower above is probably OK to regulate your power to an air conditioner, but probably adds more sine wave distortion and RF noise than not having it.

 Go with David Pritchards advice._

 

Hello HumanMedia,

 This is off my instruction manual that came with the filter.

*Perma Power automatic Voltage Regulator

 Sensitive electronic equipment, need clean, voltage controlled power to assure proper performance free from damaging surges.
 Power Voltage Regulators (PVR) protect against voltage fluctuations and surge damage and reduce the loss of irreplaceable data and damage to your expensive equipment.

 Voltage Regulation. Maintains safe output voltage to
 protect your equipment and improve performance.

 Input voltage range 120VAC +5%, -25%
 90 – 126VAC

 Output Voltage Regulation Meets ANSI C84.1-1995 “Electric Power and Equipment Voltage Ratings”. 
 Output voltage will be maintained to within the ANSI standard for the input voltage range from 90 to 126 VAC

 Frequency 60 HZ

 VA/Watts = 1200/1200.
 Circuit Breaker = 10 Amp
 Weight = 12 lb.*

 It says sensitive electronic equipment not Air Conditioners?


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not going to build the Hydra. It just seems too simple. I could solder a noise supression vishnay resistor across the AC hot and neutral spots on the IEC inside my beta22 and achieve the same sonic improvements as building a hydra, because that is all that is inside the hydra, aside from sockets and a circuit breaker._

 

jeez...Shunyata gets $1K for the Hydra 4. must be a lot of magic pixie dust in there as well.


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## compuryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jeez...Shunyata gets $1K for the Hydra 4. must be a lot of magic pixie dust in there as well._

 

I know, I can't believe that. There must be some serious pixie dust in there.


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## Spasticteapot

APC FTW!


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good call, I just ordered one of those._

 

I did a search and could not find it. Where did you order it from.


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## compuryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did a search and could not find it. Where did you order it from._

 

One of those said he got it from ebay, I checked and ebay has some Perma Power stuff.


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## mrarroyo

Thanks compuryan, found it in eBay for $29.99 w/ free shipping.

Perma Power AVR-1200 Voltage Regulator Surge Suppressor - eBay (item 290287592053 end time Feb-05-09 14:21:02 PST)


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## atx 6speed

What does everyone think of this entry level Furman? It's cheap and it looks like it would do the job. I need a power strip anyways and it seems like it would do much more:
FurmanSound.com - Pro A/V Product - M-8x


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## BIG POPPA

I have one of these, and another Head-fier just picked up one of these and they work nice for the price. Furman Power Station PST8D by Revolution Power


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## haloxt

I just got my first power conditioner (Furman Ac-215) three days ago, and gosh, my electrical outlet sure needs it. I swear, plugging my Eizo monitor directly into a normal surge protector outlet made windows' black screensaver appear uniformly GREY. Out of the power conditioner the black screensaver appears pitch black, identical to when I turn off the power on the monitor. Graphics are cleaner, colors amazingly vibrant, and less fatiguing. It changed audio the same exact way, no more grey background and fuller sound.

 Too bad not too many people have the ac-215 or have reviewed them, so I don't really know if it is good "bang for your buck". I did get this cool e-mail about an hour ago when I wanted to register my 3 year warranty without being the original buyer or having a receipt though ^^. Super-fast response, whatever that's worth.

  Quote:


 This is not an authorized dealer. Technically your warranty is void. Since you chose Furman I will honor your warranty but please in the future confirm that you are purchasing from an authorized dealer. This seller will give you no support if you were to have problems. Fortunately our failure rates are around .0005% so you should not have any issues. 
 

edit: It's nighttime and actually the screen isn't actually pitch black 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I just tried turning it on and off while the room was bright and couldn't tell a difference in the blackness, but it is at nighttime that I notice the light glow in the monitor which made me realize it didn't do a perfect black. still grey even with power conditioner. sorry about that.


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## REVPOWER

I must preface this with the fact that Revolution Power is a Furman dealer - that said, I give the opinion that the Furman M-8x is a good entry level piece with Furman "standard level" power conditioning. It is a rack-mount unit. The basics are there, but I would reccommend that if you can stretch the budget, go for the PL-8C or another of the PL series or, if you like a bar style that can fit behind a cabinet, try the PST-8 or the PST-8D.

 The PL and PST-8 and above have far more advanced power conditioning in them. the power conditioning components are non-sacrificial like MOV's, and you have better line filtering, better surge protection, and high-voltage shutdown. The PL and the PST-8D (and 10-D) have isolated banks for analog and digital. blacker backgrounds, help eliminate ground loops and buzzing etc.. Just a better bang for the buck I think.

 The AC-215 mentioned elsewhere recently is also a good choice.

 Furman conditioners are constructed with sound quality in mind. 

 There are many good manufacturers of PC equipment, but for someone on a budget, I think these are very difficult to beat.


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## tubaman

I like the Duet as well, but why not just go for the Quintet and plug everything in? If you just plug the DAC1 and the b22 in but connect the DAC1 to something else (e.g. sound card) and that something else isn't protected, the protection the Duet can provide will be limited, if not rendered meaningless, unless that something is connected to your DAC1 via toslink.


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## compuryan

Well, the Duet has 4 outlets. I only have my DAC1, beta22, computer/cd player. I think I could just use that. I still haven't decided which one I want yet. The Furman PST-8D looks pretty sweet.


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## tubaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the Duet has 4 outlets. I only have my DAC1, beta22, computer/cd player. I think I could just use that. I still haven't decided which one I want yet. The Furman PST-8D looks pretty sweet._

 

You can go to PS Audio's website and read about Duet and Quintet's "Isozones" (Quintet has 5; Duet has 2) and decide how much isolation you want. I wouldn't trust anything w/o detachable power cord. Also the Duet/Quintet have solid brass bars inside them, as oppose to wires. Now that's pretty sweet to me.


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## daglesj

We used to use these to run $80000 Video conference systems. Never let us down.

Octopart | Roxburgh PMF6 - | (Datasheet)

 When we retired the kit I took them home and now use them on my PC and hifi etc. They work a treat. So much so a Hifi firm use to rebadge them and sell them for $400...naughty!

 On a couple I cut off the power plug and wired on a 4-way or two way plug socket. Cheap enough to experiment with and tough as nails.


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## REVPOWER

Yes, the PST-8D is a well-built unit. 

 I think the originator of this thread mentioned wanting passive unit of some sort. I think the Furutech eTP60 or eTP80 are also very good. They are introducing additional models for 2009.


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## compuryan

I think the Furutech is a bit out of my price range. I'm not sure when I'll have the money to make this purchase, but I think $200 is the absolute max. I'm leaning toward either the PS Audio Duet or the Furman PST-10D but I'm not really sure which one would be better.


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## compuryan

I've done a lot of reading the last few hours. I don't want to get a unit which will hurt the quality of my sound at all. I think I might just want a quality power strip that has surge suppression that I can plug my stuff into. Does anyone know of a product like this? The PS audio Juice bar almost fits the bill, but I don't think it has surge suppression.


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## BIG POPPA

UM, Furman PST 8D for the money? Cheaper than the Duet or the Juicebar and does a better job IMO.


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## REVPOWER

Just a note that we have noticed the Furman PST-10 is missing from the new Furman catalog and pricing sheets. The PST-8D is still there and well respected so it sells quite well. I'm speculating here, but I think the 10D may be too expensive to make to stay in the pricing tier. People that need more outlets seem to go with a rack or shelf unit. There are still quite a few in the sales channel to dealers, and I suspect you would be able to get a deal on one and stay within your budget and the warranty will stay in place.

 We are not a dealer for PS Audio, but can say that I have used some of their gear in the past and it appears to be well-built in general. Nothing negative to report.


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## REVPOWER

_


			
				daglesj;5378019 said:
			
		


			We used to use these to run $80000 Video conference systems. Never let us down.

Octopart | Roxburgh PMF6 - | (Datasheet)

Click to expand...

_


			
				daglesj;5378019 said:
			
		

> I can't vouch for the sound quality, but these are rated at only 6 amps. Probably ok for some small gear, but not for running a full set-up. Keep your full power draw in mind when selecting a power conditioner.


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## MikeW

I've got the duet and the ps audio UPC-200, neither hurt sound quality in my setups, in fact they sound better. My apartment has pretty crappy power and aluminum wire though. my duet made an immediate and obvious positive change.


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## daglesj

REVPOWER;5380551 said:
			
		

> _ Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *daglesj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


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## compuryan

I want to try the juice bar, but the thing isn't surge protected. And that just kinda worries me, whether it give better sound quality or not.


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## tubaman

The Juice Power isn't a power conditioner. Its sole purpose is to offer more outlets. In other words, it won't sound better. And it will probably sound worse if you don't use a good power cable to connect the Juice Bar to the wall. If you do use the Juice Bar and a good power cable, and find the sound to be better, then it's sound of the power cable you like. 

 Here's another thought: change your wall outlet to a high quality one for optimum connection. It's a cheap and effective tweak. It worked well for me, but the old wall outlets in my apartment looked like they were 100 years old.


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## compuryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tubaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Juice Power isn't a power conditioner. Its sole purpose is to offer more outlets. In other words, it won't sound better. And it will probably sound worse if you don't use a good power cable to connect the Juice Bar to the wall. If you do use the Juice Bar and a good power cable, and find the sound to be better, then it's sound of the power cable you like. 

 Here's another thought: change your wall outlet to a high quality one for optimum connection. It's a cheap and effective tweak. It worked well for me, but the old wall outlets in my apartment looked like they were 100 years old._

 

I know the juicebar won't improve the sound. I've just read so many negative things about passive filtering conditioners that I think I want to steer clear of them. It seems that the only conditioners that really improve the sound without hurting other areas are the ones that regenerate the power (like the PS audio power plant series). I might look into changing the outlets, thats a good idea. Of course I can't do it in my dorm room right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I can only imagine the next occupant being puzzled staring at a nice fancy furutech receptacle.


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## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've just read so many negative things about passive filtering conditioners that I think I want to steer clear of them. It seems that the only conditioners that really improve the sound without hurting other areas are the ones that regenerate the power (like the PS audio power plant series). I might look into changing the outlets, thats a good idea. Of course I can't do it in my dorm room right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I can only imagine the next occupant being puzzled staring at a nice fancy furutech receptacle._

 

Dont you mean ACTIVE conditioners?
 Passive conditioners are far less detrimental to the sound.


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## compuryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dont you mean ACTIVE conditioners?
 Passive conditioners are far less detrimental to the sound._

 

The thing about them is that they have line filters inside. These filters often have parts called "chokes" inside which end up limiting current to the attached devices in the long run. A lot of reviews of passive-filtered devices that I've read report a blacker background with bigger soundstage, yet less punchiness and dynamic contrasts.


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## daglesj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thing about them is that they have line filters inside. These filters often have parts called "chokes" inside which end up limiting current to the attached devices in the long run. A lot of reviews of passive-filtered devices that I've read report a blacker background with bigger soundstage, yet less punchiness and dynamic contrasts._

 

Thats just standard hifi speak. Nothing to worry about. I've used several passive filters and not noticed any lack of dynamics. 

 If the gear doeant get enough power it wont work. The gear itself has capacitors etc. inside that can either add filtering or store power for when its needed. If it was that bad they wouldnt be there.

 I dont find they make much audible difference (I live in a house that gets a good stable supply) but as long as I think the gear is getting smoother cleaner power then I'm happy.


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## Scrith

Another vote for the PS Audio Duet and Quintet.

 I have both (Duet for audio components, Quintet for computer-related stuff).

 I've used quite a few power conditioners in my day: PS Audio P300, P500, Power Plant Premier, Juice Bar, UPC 200, Ultimate Outlet, Balanced Power Technologies power bar, some Monster stuff, etc. The PS Audio Duet is definitely the most bang for the buck. The Power Plant Premier is an amazing device, but I decided the power where I live just doesn't benefit enough from it so I ended up selling it on Audiogon.

 I remember reading an article somewhere (possibly here at Head-Fi) wherein someone took apart a Shunyata Hydra and found an amazing lack of sophistication and quality parts. I've been avoiding the Shunyata brand ever since (it doesn't help matters that they seem to be ridiculously overpriced).


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## jilgiljongiljing

APC H10/15 is on sale in Audioholics and can be had for 129$ and 149$ with free shipping. I cant think of a better deal honestly, maybe the Duet at 199, but I needed more outlets so I went with the H10.


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## compuryan

I dunno guys. I've been tossing around this conditioner idea around for a while now and just think my money could be better spent other places in my setup. My amp uses the sigma22 psu which already supplies really really clean DC power to the beta22 boards. So I'm gonna stick with my old APC surge protected power strip for now. The money might go to DIYing a new cable for my headphones or upgrading power cables or XLR interconnects.


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## tourmaline

DON"T!

 better spend the money to mod the really important parts in your amp, like really clean power and high quality components! Especially clean ac/dc in your amp is crucial! More effect then a patch before the amp (conditioner)!

 I tried this out myself and can clearly say that the money is better spend to improve the amplifier, especially the powersections of the amplifier!


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## tubaman

You know you can always return the Duet within 30 days.


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## Dat_Dude

Sorry to revive an old thread. I was curious if anyone has experience with the following:

Monster Surge Suppression - 2 Outlet.

 I really only need 2 outlets, but was wondering if it would be worth the extra $150 to go with the PS Audio Duet? I don't know how much difference in SQ I would hear?


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## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *compuryan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thing about them is that they have line filters inside. These filters often have parts called "chokes" inside which end up limiting current to the attached devices in the long run. A lot of reviews of passive-filtered devices that I've read report a blacker background with bigger soundstage, yet less punchiness and dynamic contrasts._

 

Again you are getting active and passive filtering mixed up. Passive filtering is where there is a capacitor or capacitors in parallel across the load sometime s with a resistor out to the neutral lead. They are in parallel and hence passive. Active filtering is using devices filtering devices (like DC chokes, varistors etc) in series with the current and through which the current must pass, hence active.

 This is why passive filtering has a relatively minor effect and active filtering is often current limiting and detrimental. Also keep in mind that anything that stops 'surges' and 'spikes' (usually active filters) will also stop your power amps from charging the power supply capacitors as quickly and will often have a detrimental audio effect. So what is good for stopping surges is usually a bad thing for amps (whose transformers usually iron out spikes and high frequencies anyway).


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## phreaknupallnite

Monster HTS 7000, I don't know about the entry level power conditioners, but with the 3600, 5100 and 7000; if they stop a surge which is what they are for, Monster will replace it. Mine stopped a surge and I took it where I bought it and walked out with a new one.

 I used to sell them and to the best of my knowledge this has been the case with all of their power conditioners. Same with cables, if one doesn't work, they replace it.


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## Dat_Dude

Thanks. That is good information. Did you use them for Audio Equipment? I know it cleans up the power, but I am not sure if they are meant for audio equipment and to improve sound quality. I might keep this one and still order the PS Audio one. It's just money, right?


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## robinje

I use a Richard Gray RGPC 400 Pro. It works just fine as a passive power "conditioning" device.


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## soloz2

I use a Monster HTS5100MKII in my living room for my HT setup. My office setup has an APC H15 and I have a few OneAc units floating around for duty on PC setups and such. Overall I think the H15 was the best buy since I got it for only $150. I actually picked up two and haven't used the second. Send me a PM if you are interested.


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## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again you are getting active and passive filtering mixed up. Passive filtering is where there is a capacitor or capacitors in parallel across the load sometime s with a resistor out to the neutral lead. They are in parallel and hence passive. Active filtering is using devices filtering devices (like DC chokes, varistors etc) in series with the current and through which the current must pass, hence active.

 This is why passive filtering has a relatively minor effect and active filtering is often current limiting and detrimental. Also keep in mind that anything that stops 'surges' and 'spikes' (usually active filters) will also stop your power amps from charging the power supply capacitors as quickly and will often have a detrimental audio effect. So what is good for stopping surges is usually a bad thing for amps (whose transformers usually iron out spikes and high frequencies anyway)._

 


 so, does it mean a "simple" power bar will be better? or for us audio users, a juice bar can/should sound better than a duet(for example)?


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## fzman

Thought I'd step in here and correct what seem to me to be some misconceptions about power conditioning products and the various technologies behind them.

 Just for the sake of disclosure, the company I work for currently sells Shunyata, PS Audio, Furman, and Audience power conditioning products. There have been many other brands of power conditioners that we have sold in the past, so I feel that I/we have extensive hands-on experience with these products/technologies.

 There are really three functions that "power conditioners" can/do serve:

 1. Power distribution -- i.e., supplying multiple outlets for your gear
 2. Protection -- guards against surges and spikes—over-voltage, etc. so that your equipment doesn't fry
 3. Power filtering -- that is, removing noise and distortions from the power line, so that your equipment will perform better


 Turns out, that it is very hard to design a product that does all three equally well. Cheap protection circuits have negative sonic effects, and poorly designed filters can change the sound, and react differently, depending on what they are powering.

 Rather than use the active and passive distinction, which I think has been used somewhat incorrectly here, I want to use the terms parallel and series.

 Parallel filters are connected from hot to neutral, and (also) from neutral to ground. They do not even need to be connected to the specific outlet powering your gear, just on the same electrical circuit. Power conditioners with multiple outlets provide them as a convenience-- not a necessity.

 Series filters are designed to filter by having the power pass through them-- they are in the power path, not across it (like parallel filters). Series filters are more difficult to design so they do not impede power delivery (think about how much slower the water runs through the filter you install on your kitchen sink, than it flows from the tap directly.

 Most ‘audiophile conditioners are parallel units, as they are less likely to do a poor job at power delivery/distribution. The Furman units are series filters, and work very well, showing that the implementation is important as well as the specific technology used. Most of the surge protectors and power strips designed for computers or just for electrical appliances in general harm the sound, as they are just designed to do one thing, without regard for the other important criteria for a-v gear. They may even, in fact, produce more noise and distortion than the power line itself.


 Lastly, there were a number of comments earlier in this thread, which were very critical of Shunyata products, specifically the Hydra power conditioners, and even referenced a “how to build your own’ article. Having read that article, and owning several Hydras myself, I really want to point out that the Hydra is a superior audiophile power conditioner, and that most of what makes it so good can easily escape a casual glance at its innards (it is cryo treated in their own facility, and uses parts which are made specifically for them, to their exacting specs). I’d say more, but want to keep this brief, and not an “ad” for one specific brand. You can always email or call me if you want to hear the more detailed version.

 Don’t underestimate the value of good power distribution/conditioning, and do not assume that all products are created equal.


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## tubaman

Another thing is people use tiny throw-away power cords to connect the power conditioner to the wall. IMO if the conditioner has fixed power cord, it's not worth buying for audiophile purposes because it's current-limiting. 
 Whether or not a conditioner will benefit a particular wall outlet depends on how bad the power is. It's probably true any time you add a power conditioner between equipment and wall power, power delivery is restricted at least somewhat. 

 But everything is a compromise, and based on my experience with PS Audio's Power Plants, a power conditioner can be very beneficial to a system's sound.


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## nicholaus

I'm considering something like the Furman PST-8D,only trouble is,I live in Europe,
 so I need the 2-pin plugs and 220V...

 Any suggestions?


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## BIG POPPA

You still should be able to find the Furman in 220v


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## nicholaus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You still should be able to find the Furman in 220v_

 

On their site,when I choose the "International" option to view products,there is no PST-8D.

 Only US version.I'll look some more,but if anyone has a link to the europe version,I would be quite thankful.


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## 40Hz

FWIW (particularly this late in the thread), I agree with robm321's earlier post endorsing the Chang Lightspeed gear. They don't seem to gt much press - can't figure out why - but I picked up one of their lower models second hand for a great price and haven't looked back. I live in an old art deco home, with iffy wiring, and the Chang unit cleaned up the extraneous noise to a T. As with robm's experience, I didn't feel sound quality changed otherwise.


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## Happy Camper

fzman,

 Thank you for a simple explanation of the different filtering mechanisms. That explains why some have said amps are negatively impacted with some devices. Can you discuss the different filtering needs of sources and amps? I've read that amps are better left to the wall & use a power cable and digital sources benefit from filtering. 

 What does cryo treating copper do to make it any different than normal copper? I thought cryo treatment is only beneficial for hardening tools using steel and not soft metals.


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## rl5555

PS Audio P-300 is the one I'm using. SS5 mode works best for me.


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## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fzman,

 Thank you for a simple explanation of the different filtering mechanisms. That explains why some have said amps are negatively impacted with some devices. Can you discuss the different filtering needs of sources and amps? I've read that amps are better left to the wall & use a power cable and digital sources benefit from filtering. 

 What does cryo treating copper do to make it any different than normal copper? I thought cryo treatment is only beneficial for hardening tools using steel and not soft metals._

 

Cryo treatment alters the lattice structure of the crystal -- beyond that, a physicist would be better suited to explain the changes. cryo-ing seems to improve the sound of plugs, sockets and wires, so i do recommend it.

 amplifiers need much more current than source components, and need huge gulp of power delivered very quickly. this means that some filtering techniques that work well for sources cannot be implemented for amps-- or at least have to be massively overbuilt- and would be prohibitively expensive.


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## Fryguy8

Any suggestions for filters that include switched outlets controlled by a DC trigger?


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## spartan777

redacted.


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## soloz2

I haven't seen anything dramatic like that, but plugging my TV into my Moster HTS 5100 MKII produced blacker blacks and more crisp, clear colors.


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## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spartan777* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bull. Crap. I can say *without a doubt* that what you describe about your monitor is false.

 This insanity has just turned me of getting a conditioner. I know people can get hyperbolic, but this is laughable._

 

If you read the rest of my post you'd see I said I was wrong about that. I still think the effect the Furman ac-215 has on my monitor is very amazing though.


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## Happy Camper

OK, it works on sources. 

 I picked up an isolation transformer (10 amp) for the computer and DAC. I haven't tried the amp on it yet but it makes the DAC sound noticeably better. Helps the micro-details and fills out low energy notes. The instruments seem more anchored in the headscape and full of life. With a decent power cord, this thing has potential. I'm using a 1 ft. hospital grade power cord for the iso. transformer and a 12g 6 ft. power cord on the DAC. 

 Thanks guys. Another (former) skeptic turned around.


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## Jasper994

I just installed a Furman PL-8C. I got it to try to get rid of a buzzing in my speakers. Seems to have worked so far. 

 It seems to have improved my sound quality as well. I've only had in going for about 20 mins now... will report more later.


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## Jasper994

Dammit, okay there's that buzz. It does seem considerably quieter, but it's not gone... Grr! Damn florescent lights and dimmer switches!!!


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## Jasper994

Depth does seem to have improved though...


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## haloxt

I have a Furman power conditioner, it helps quite a bit but I know it doesn't clean the power 100% because the sound quality is always much much better when I listen late at night like at 1 AM. I believe it's good bang for buck though, and wouldn't upgrade power again unless I want to spend $1000+ on it but that'll be a long time from now.


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## Jasper994

I find myself growing a love hate relationship with audiophilia... Yeah it sounds great but it's such an incredible money pit!

 I'm pretty happy with what the PL-8c is doing, but now I'm back to thinking about new speakers and the JH13's... Will it ever end?


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## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jasper994* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty happy with what the PL-8c is doing, but now I'm back to thinking about new speakers and the JH13's... Will it ever end?_

 

Yes. At least for headphones. The JH13 has killed my thoughts of high-end headphones, buried them, and built a military hangar over gravesite 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Speakers....well....I can't help you there!


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## Jasper994

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. At least for headphones. The JH13 has killed my thoughts of high-end headphones, buried them, and built a military hangar over gravesite 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Speakers....well....I can't help you there! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I heard the new m-audio monitors the other day. The CX-8 I think... Sounded pretty damn good. Gotta go back with my own source materials.


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## Jasper994

Yeah, they were the CX8s
M-AUDIO - Studiophile CX8 - High-Resolution Active Studio Reference Monitor


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## Jarmel

I just picked up a Furman Power Station PST-8D and was wondering if it would have been better to get a power conditioner. Also does anyone know how you calculate 15 amps in regards to equipment.


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## atbglenn

For the best protection get yourself a Price Wheeler Brickwall Filter. 

[size=medium]Link to Price Wheeler[/size]


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## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jarmel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up a Furman Power Station PST-8D and was wondering if it would have been better to get a power conditioner. Also does anyone know how you calculate 15 amps in regards to equipment._

 

The PST-8D is considered a power conditioner, but it doesn't regulate the voltage though.


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## Jarmel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The PST-8D is considered a power conditioner, but it doesn't regulate the voltage though._

 

So what does that mean exactly?


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## haloxt

That you aren't making sense when you say the PST-8D isn't a power conditioner.


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## Jarmel

Fine, other than that, how does regulating voltage influence anything? When I was thinking of power conditions I was thinking of things like this even though I'm aware that the Furman is technically a power conditioner too.

Furman PL-8 C Classic Power Conditioner by Revolution Power


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## haloxt

How voltage regulation affects sonic performance is a big question mark. Some might say it is good, bad, or have no effect. It could help protect your gear better than power conditioners that don't have voltage regulators though, voltage fluctuations may be more common than you think. Just for fun I kept on testing out the built-in voltage protection inside my Phoenix headphone amp. I have it hooked up to the Furman AC-215 which does not have a voltage regulator function. Then I kept turning on a fan connected to a surge protector by using the on/off switch of the surge protector. Every time I did so it caused such a fluctuation in my power that it would trigger my headphone amp's protection to set the volume to the lowest, which would only goes back to proper volume by adjusting the volume up or down. Every time your refrigerator turns on and off it does something similar but maybe not as dramatic as that ghetto surge protector.


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## Jarmel

Ok thank you for the info. The PST is really only a temporary solution and as such I just want to make sure my equipment doesn't fry in the mean time. SQ and PQ improvement would be nice but the reason I didn't go with one of the voltage regulators is because if I didn't get a HQ one, there might be a negative effect on my equipment.


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## Jasper994

The PL-8 C has their LiFT technology that filters the power. Now that I've had it a few days I feel better able to comment on it.

 Keep in mind, the power in my home is very noisy and I was getting a nasty buzz in my right monitor (left monitor as well but it wasn't as loud). 

 As a result of adding in the PL-8 C I am no longer hearing the buzzing at all. There is a slight hiss to my speakers, but that is likely caused by the amplification on the speakers themselves. The hiss is only noticeable if I put my ear within a couple inches of the tweeter. Sound quality has most definitely improved. The improvement is across the board, but is most noticeable in the bass notes that are VERY SIGNIFICANTLY more defined.


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## Jasper994

...I'm still just mind boggled over how much better my gear sounds now that I've added power conditioning. The added low level detail is incredible!


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