# For the skeptics, which tweaks have you found to actually work?



## tomek

Hey guys,

 I know that this site is divided into people who really believe in cables and those who don't. I'd like to think that those that don't believe in cables are very skeptical about some of the other tweaks out there and really need to hear a difference to believe and then, invest.

 What have you found that works and what hasn't?

 For me:

*No Difference*

*interconnects
 speaker wire
 power cord*

 despite my best efforts, i just wasn't ever able to notice any difference. i've tried silver, copper and carbon cables but when put to the blind test all differences went away. sure, at times I thought I heard big differences, but as soon as I was blind to the switching I wasn't sure if I heard a difference and I was completely unsure if anything was better than anything else.

*isolation cones
 solid state amps*

 as well, i tried several solid state head amps and really couldn't tell. i'm one of the few people that admits that the headphone out of my receiver sounded just as good as some of the better headamps. However, I'm pretty sure that I have heard a difference with tube amps although it's hard to place. They just seem to have more life to them.

 I also have some isolation cones for my cdp. I didn't notice any improvement. come on, my CDP has an incredibly complex vibration reduction system.

*Difference*

*power conditioning *

 there was an unmistakable difference with my old speakers. My girlfriend picked 28/30 times or so, it was unreal. however with my new speakers (much better and bigger) we didn't pick up the difference. It may be the speakers or maybe the power was just really good when we tested again.

*listening environment* 

 ambient noise level, speaker placement, placement of the headphones on my head, and listening position have always made VERY big changes to me. toeing in my speakers 20 degrees, moving them back a foot have all made big changes and I've spent a lot of time tweaking them. I still catch myself moving my head forward a foot and noticing how the richness and size of the music changes.

*Still Undecided*

*cd players* 

 I've compared my so called 'audiophile' cdp to aerius' lower cost rack mount player and we had trouble telling any difference. we had the same disc going on each player and switched inputs on my amp for instant changes. at first i thought i noticed a difference, and could pick it out, but several swaps later and i was back at random. The shop I got my gear from has a modded CDP that they've shown me several times and the difference has usually been quite dramatic. I'm reserving judgment until I've had it in my home and been able to test it more carefully.

*rainbow foil*

 who knows. really, call me nuts, but i haven't discounted it yet!

*replacement tubes*

 I've never heard them but am curious whether people with my mindset (or ears) think that they make a noticeable and worthwhile improvement.




 Any input guys?


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## aerius

In my case it goes something like this.

*No Difference*

*power cords*

 IME as long as it gets power from the wall to the component it's good. I've had stuff running on lamp cord to proper grounded cords and noticed no difference.


*Difference*

*power conditioning *

 It kills the noise from the light dimmer and drops the noise floor in doing so. However I don't notice the improved soundstaging, imaging, and focus that have been claimed by others as benefits of power conditioning.

*listening environment* 

 Listening at night when it's dead quiet is so much better than daytime listening. How the headphones are worn & how they're positioned in relation to my ears also makes a big difference. Especially with my Grado 225s, wearing them wrong really screws everything up. Frequency balance, soundstage, everything, gets FUBAR'd if I wear them in the wrong position.

*replacement tubes*

 Definite differences here to me, I have 3 sets of tubes for my DIY tube amp, the stock set and a couple I got off ebay. The stock set is lifeless and lacks bass compared to the other 2 sets, the difference isn't subtle, play anything with low bass and the stock tubes won't even reproduce the sound. I think they cut off somewhere around 50Hz while the other 2 sets go down quite a bit more. Between the 2 sets I got off ebay, the differences are pretty subtle, one set seems to image a bit better while the other has a warmer sound.

*Solid State amps*

 I have a mini-Gilmore built from subsonic's board, the jack on my Denon, and an old technics receiver, they all sound different. The differences between any two of these is bigger than the one between my tube amp & my mini-Gilmore. However I haven't had enough experience with a dedicated solid state headphone amp other than my mini-Gilmore to comment on them.

*Still Undecided*

*cd players*

 While there's a clear difference between my craptastic Panasonic CD/DVD player and my Denon 650F rackmount unit, I couldn't differentiate between my Denon and tomek's audiophile approved CD player. When the output levels were equalized I just sat there going "damned if I know.."

*interconnects*

 Like tomek, I can't tell any differences between silver, copper, shielded, braided, whatever when doing A/B testing, even when I was the one doing the switching. However, I have noticed a reduction in listening fatigue using my new DIY ICs after long listening sessions even though they sound the same as every other IC I've made or heard.

*Vibration control*

 I opened up my Senn 580s and put blue sticky-tack on most of the flat surfaces. Results are similar to using my new DIY ICs, and I think it helps out with imaging & focus a bit but I'm not sure yet.


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## Ctn

For me:

*No Difference*

*interconnects*

 I found no difference between quality interconnects over $30.

*speaker cable*

 I found no difference between speaker cables when the cable is sufficiently thick/short.

*power cord*

 Zero difference period.

*ferrite cores*

 Zero difference.

*surge protectors/filters*

 No difference, except maybe the the crackles/pops are slightly reduced when the washing machine is on 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*vibration cones*

 No difference. I mean, your cdp isnt in the dakar rally 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Minor Difference*

*cd player*

 I found the difference between an average cdp and a high end cdp to be minimal. I think you can still tell the difference in a blind test but it's not that big a difference.

*Major Difference*

*solid state amps*

 BIG BIG BIG difference. This imo is the best place to dump your money into after your speakers. I have spent the most on my amp in my system and it sounds awesome. Best money I've ever spent.

*listening environment* 

 If your speaker system still sounds crappy, this is your problem.
 I find that the environment and placement makes a VERY substantial difference. Best cheap tweak is this !!

*spikes*

 Free and does wonders for the tightness of the bass. Stands are a waste of money imo. If you do insist on stands, dont spend more than $30. Overpriced doorstop.

*flurescent globes* 

 Remove all of these !!@!@!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!
 Annoying as hell.


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## Mr.PD

No Difference
 Power cord.
 Could be that I don't have enough experience. Or maybe burn in time took so long that I forgot what it sounded like with the other cord.
 Power conditioning strip.
 I didn't notice any audio improvements with the addition of a power strip. But it did help my TV.

Major Difference
 CD Player.
 Huge difference between my two players. One is the Sony DVD NS500V which sounds half as good as my Arcam CD23T. I got the Sony up to half as good with cables and Vibrapods. Before that it was only a quarter as good.

 Interconnect cables.
 Okay these can also be listed as minor differences. I have a pair of Nordost Solar Wind cables that I thought were good, until I tried something else. I experienced volume level differences when switching between the Nordosts and the Audioquest Corals. Plus the Corals didn't have that bright digital harshness when run through a Cosmic amp that the Nordosts had.
 The difference between the Corals and Audioquest Vipers was small enough to be considered perceived rather than actual.

 Vibrapods.
 Another item where I have seen major improvement and barely noticeable improvement. Under my Sony DVD player they made a huge difference. More distinct bass, deeper and wider sound stage and better picture quality.
 Under the Arcam, there was a bit of an improvement. Not dramatic.

Minor Difference
 Speaker cables.
 Once I got passed the ultra skinny crap that comes with consumer grade stereo equipment, the differences have been slight and subtle. The biggest difference I have noticed is a lower setting of the volume knob for the same sound level.


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## darkclouds

I'm not the type of person that would sit down hours on end A/B'ing different components and taking notes. I simply will listen to my music with the various components to see if I like the sonic signature or not. Thus far, I've noticed a huge difference between cdps, headphones, and speakers, easily discernible sonic signatures between power conditioners, and slightly noticeable changes between power chords (especially between stock and after market). Although I've spent a healthy amount of money on speaker cables, ICs and damping devices, I'm not certain how much of an impact it has on my system. 

 OH, and yes, solidly well built stands make a huge difference. Those that do not hear the difference are simply using poorly built speakers! As the old addage go, you can't shine *****... and you can't make ***** sound good no matter how much money you throw at it.


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## aerius

Forgot about a couple things.

 Headphone cables: Going from my stock Senn 580 cable to the Oehlbach is a noticeable change. Not as big as removing the foam from my headphones but it's there.

 Cute females: The presence of a cute female makes everything better. The difference is like night & day, having a cute chick in the room makes the music ten times better at least, the sound is more relaxed & intimate, the rhythm & timing is better and everything just becomes more "right". If you use speakers you can even position them in various places in the room to improve the acoustics. However this can have undesirable consequences.


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## Orpheus

Major difference (Night and day difference):

 Headphones/Speakers

 Very minor difference (hardly noticeable):

 CD Player
 Amps

 No difference:

 Cables (in tone no difference... but there are other reasons to have higher grade cables)

 note: while i cannot tell the difference between this and that CD player usually in terms of tone, they do vary widely in easier to hear areas such as noise floor. and the more expensive cd players have more features, like balanced outputs and stuff like that.

 but if you're looking to alter the sound itself, the only real difference is found in swapping headphones/speakers. next, maybe go for an amp i guess... well, maybe the cd player too--but it won't change the basic character of the headphone/speaker.
  Quote:


 Cute females 
 

 um no. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 actually, it's the opposite in real life. you would think that's true.... but what happens is that cute females are actually insulted when you boast about audio equipment. and if you put on headphones........ cute females will leave the room. so, you're momentary moment of glory will be quite short. that IS what happens.


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## Ctn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *darkclouds* 
_OH, and yes, solidly well built stands make a huge difference. Those that do not hear the difference are simply using poorly built speakers! As the old addage go, you can't shine *****... and you can't make ***** sound good no matter how much money you throw at it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You can't improve on perfect either


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## ooheadsoo

Major difference

 Speakers/Headphones

 Speaker amplification (I have to hold my judgement on headphone amps, I haven't A/B'd enough.) - With speakers, a bad amp can mean that everything sounds like SUCK ASS. I went to a DIY store which had speakers that ranged from $15 in parts to $2000-3000 in parts alone. With a crappy amp (I forget which) all of them sounded bleh. Went back later and they had switched up to a bunch of Sunfire amps. WHOA. Even the $15 parts speakers with 3" drivers sounded like they were pumping out 50hz bass! It was a whole different ballpark. The better speakers sounded open, after all.

 Cables with a passive preamp. This has just as big an impact as speakers/headphones. We're talking HUGE treble attenuation with the wrong capacitance/length cables.

 "Speaker stands" - whatever you use, don't use textbooks. They destroy the soundstage. Placing them on my wildly gyrating desk is MUCH better. I'll post my new pics some time of my ghetto asymmetrical setup.

 Minor difference

 Cables - after switching to new cables I thought there was a difference, but after switching back, I had second thoughts. Not 100% positive. 

 Blue Circle parallel power filter - It certainly didn't hurt. I'm not 100% positive it helped. Too hard to A/B what with the crawling under the table business to unplug the sucker and all that.

 Source - To tell you the truth, with my headphones, I can barely hear a difference between my Revo and my cd player. However, turn my speakers on, and the difference is definitely there. Maybe speakers are just more sensitive than headphones...? Or maybe my speakers are more revealing than my headphones. As I'm typing this, I fiddled with the resampling options. I had set it to 88.2khz because it had sounded "more clear" than 96khz. However, now I know that the 88.2khz resampling was a major reason the revo sounded cheaper, brighter and more plastickey than my cd player. With the resampling back at 96khz, the difference between the treble is almost alleviated. Some midrange issues remain, and soundstage flatness still favors my cdplayer by a sizeable margin. I don't know if I can tell a difference AT ALL now on my headphones.

 No Difference
 isolation blocks on my cd player/amps at least while on my rather decoupled desk...Did nothing afai can tell.

 Belkin Isolator power strip - Don't think it does much...



 _____

 Ctn, aren't your speakers floorstanders?? I wouldn't use stands with floorstanders either


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## Ctn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_Ctn, aren't your speakers floorstanders?? I wouldn't use stands with floorstanders either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have other speakers too, you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I use spikes on my foorstanders. It tightens up the bass a fair bit.


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## ooheadsoo

What do you use for diy spikes? I'd like to spike my sub, but with my speaker sitting on top, a cinder block, and a bunch of junk, the sucker weighs like 130lbs or something, so I'm afraid nails won't cut it...


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## Ctn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_What do you use for diy spikes? I'd like to spike my sub, but with my speaker sitting on top, a cinder block, and a bunch of junk, the sucker weighs like 130lbs or something, so I'm afraid nails won't cut it..._

 

I use the spikes supplied with my speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It's just a sharp screw with a nut, atleast that's what it looks like.

 If you dont have carpet, use rubber feet. It's just as good.
 If you got carpet, you need to some drilling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 depeding if the base is thick.
 I wouldnt use nails.

 Since your sub is like 130lbs, you shouldnt need spikes. That sucker aint going nowhere.


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## ooheadsoo

I have carpet :\ I guess I won't be adding spikes any time soon. My sub is crammed into the corner of my room pinned behind a rack kinda thing and my desk. I can't move my desk very easily because it's rather flimsy (did I mention it gyrates wildly?) and so is my rack kinda thing. So the way I got my sub in was by lifting it in my arms (without my cinderblock and speakers of course, around 80 lbs.) and got my brother to get under the area on his back and help support it on its way down to the ground. It'd be a MAJOR job to get it out of that corner!

 I would consider nails for tile floors - but not for my sub!

 Ah well, sorry for going OT.


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## HiGHFLYiN9

so far in my experience.

*No Difference*
*Rainbow Foil
 Length of ICs, Speaker Cable*

*Barely Noticable*
*Isolation cones
 Power Cords
 Power Conditioners*

*Minor Difference*
*Interconnects
 Speaker Cables
 Cable Splitters
 Digital Cables*

*Major Difference*
*OpAmp Rolling
 Amplification
 CD Players*


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## ooheadsoo

To clarify, I don't think there can be any doubt that length and/or capacitance of IC matters in _passive preamp_ situations. The difference is so huge, it would EASILY be measurable.


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## tortie

Quote:


 I'm not the type of person that would sit down hours on end A/B'ing different components and taking notes. I simply will listen to my music with the various components to see if I like the sonic signature or not. 
 

Same here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Here are my findings based on my different personal experiences with my headphone gear & tweaks.

*I tried hard but heard no difference*
*Rainbow Foil
 Vibrapods
 Brickwall vs Monstercable PC1000
 Y-Splitters
 Headphone adaptors
 Cardas Caps
 Isolating analog from digital power sources
 CDP Damping
 $30 powercords vs $100 powercords
*
*I think I can hear a difference, but im not really sure. I'll most likely fail in a DBT*
*$25 IC's & DIY IC's vs $80-100 IC's
 default powercords vs $30 & $100 powercords
 Using Grado extension cable
 963SA upsampling effect
 Burn-in effect in audio equipment
 SACD vs CD
 HD600 vs HD650
 Ferrites in general
 Headphone Replacement Cables using PC (Sound Blaster) as source
*
*Subtle but can be heard difference. Im optimistic to pass in a DBT*
*Headphone Replacement Cables using 963SA as source
 OP-Amp swapping
 Routing IC's and power cords separately in general
 Emmeline XP-7 vs Headroom MOH
 cheapo IC's vs $20 IC's & DYI IC's
*

*Clearly Noticable Difference*
*Grado Pad Swapping
 Amplification
 CD Player Mods done to my 963SA
 Shielded IC's used near computer equipment
 Routing unsheilded IC's and unshielded power cords separately
 Meta42 & RA-1 vs Headroom MOH, Emmeline XP-7
 Pinkfloyd X-feed*

*Very obvious, drastic & unmistakable difference*
*Computer soundcard (Sound blaster) vs cheap Pioneer CDP.
 Cheap Pioneer CDP vs Philips 963SA CDP
 No amp vs Meta42 & RA-1
 Headphones in general
 Headroom crossfeed
*

 Edit: added more info, made list more specific.


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## aphex944

*Obvious difference:*
 CD Players
 Amplifiers
 Speakers
 Headphones
 Opamps + Capacitors
 Compression 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Minor:*
 Radio Shack ICs over cheapo "Wal-Mart" brand
 Cat5 used as speaker cable
 Burn-in

*None:*
 Power cords/conditioning


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## rickcr42

tweaks that work for me :

 Removing anything that rattles or vibrates from a room then paying attention to early reflections and bass nodes and adjusting the room as required

 Isolating and damping electromechanice devices-turntables,CD players ,DVD players ,tape recorders,etc.

 Usually this involves added mass and selective damping

 plus i add natural hardwood whenever possible just because i like to !

 making sure every connection is cranked down tight and routed away from any AC or RF interference

 using the proper guage wire/cable for the particular job it is used for

 AC line isolation and parallel resonant filters on the same lines as AC units ,refridgerators , furnaces and any other high current draw device in the house plus the elimination of flourecent lighting when possible

 and a lava lamp to relax me when i listen to music


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## tomek

so far this isn't what i was expecting.

 i was expecting to find trends, possibly meaning that either some components don't really make much of a difference or that some people have better ears.

 but some people seem to be ranking sources as a much higher priority than others. i'm not sure how to explain this, except that maybe some people have been exposed to players that have a very similar sound. i think many of the high end players really do have a similar sound. oddly enough, the biggest difference i ever heard with a source was a Harmon/Kardon cd changer with burr brown dacs. It sounded much smoother than other players I heard, including 3000 dollar Myriads which all sounded the same to me.


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## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_tweaks that work for me :

 Removing anything that rattles or vibrates from a room then paying attention to early reflections and bass nodes and adjusting the room as required

 Isolating and damping electromechanice devices-turntables,CD players ,DVD players ,tape recorders,etc.

 Usually this involves added mass and selective damping

 plus i add natural hardwood whenever possible just because i like to !

 making sure every connection is cranked down tight and routed away from any AC or RF interference

 using the proper guage wire/cable for the particular job it is used for

 AC line isolation and parallel resonant filters on the same lines as AC units ,refridgerators , furnaces and any other high current draw device in the house plus the elimination of flourecent lighting when possible

 and a lava lamp to relax me when i listen to music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 

Hey Rick, where in the room should that Lava lamp be placed for best effect..?


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## rickcr42

anywhere you can see it clearly and a subwoofer bass node does not knock the crap out of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 actually i have one on my right main speaker right now and a diy color organ on the other


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## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_anywhere you can see it clearly and a subwoofer bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 node does not knock the crap out of it_

 

Hmm...I think that cleared things up nicely, thanks Rick..


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## Leporello

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aerius* 
_Cute females: The presence of a cute female makes everything better. The difference is like night & day, having a cute chick in the room makes the music ten times better at least, the sound is more relaxed & intimate, the rhythm & timing is better and everything just becomes more "right"._

 

Certainly one of those occasions when blind tests are not recommended at all.


 Regards,

 L.


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## HD-5000

CD players, oh yes! Very huge difference when evaluating properly.

 Amplification: I hear more subtle changes, but still there. Difference between headphone outs with the Senn's are quite obvious.

 Speakers: Duh

 Cute females: The presence of a cute female in the rom definitely helps the soundstage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cables: never bothered to carefully evaluate cables, but heard a difference between my wireworld interconnects and el cheapo ultra long 10M wire. Didn't swap out the Radio Shack 16ga cable yet.

 Various objects placed under CD player: Couldn't tell a difference.

 Power: Don't know, I don't have aftermarket power cables.


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## saint.panda

Difference in order:

 Major difference:
 1.Headphones (guess that's obvious)
 2.from bad source to good source
 3.no amp to amp

 Minor difference:
 3.good source to badass source
 4.good amp to badass amp 
 6.crossfeed (this is simply the best tweak for so little money, no changes to sound quality but the sound perception)

 Little difference:
 7.opamp rolling (only tried that on a cmoy)
 8. $5 IC to $30 IC
 9. Jan Meier's analoguer (very subtle but it works. It works better depending on your listening ability. If you can hear very high frequencies, e.g. more than 20khz, then this tweak is supposed to clean up the sound artifacts.)

 Not sure about $30 IC to $100 yet. Or even more the differences between $100 and $500 interconnects.


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## cosmopragma

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_Difference in order:

 Major difference:
 1.Headphones (guess that's obvious)
 2.from bad source to good source
 3.no amp to amp

 Minor difference:
 3.good source to badass source
 4.good amp to badass amp 
 6.crossfeed (this is simply the best tweak for so little money, no changes to sound quality but the sound perception)

 Little difference:
 7.opamp rolling (only tried that on a cmoy)
 8. $5 IC to $30 IC
 9. Jan Meier's analoguer (very subtle but it works. It works better depending on your listening ability. If you can hear very high frequencies, e.g. more than 20khz, then this tweak is supposed to clean up the sound artifacts.)

 Not sure about $30 IC to $100 yet. Or even more the differences between $100 and $500 interconnects._

 

saint.panda is a malign hacker who has stolen my conclusions while I was typing them down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 The only thing left to add is my experience with modding my AKG K340, especially exchanging the cable.In order to avoid fooling myself I purchased a second pair for comparison.The new cable bettered the former flabby bass.
 Major difference to my ears.


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## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cosmopragma* 
_saint.panda is a malign hacker who has stolen my conclusions while I was typing them down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

I agree 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Another thing that makes a little bit difference (depending on the headphone) is the positioning on the head as well as putting damping material inside closed headphones (link)

 The best tweak is still listening to headphones at night


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## 10068

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomek* 
_so far this isn't what i was expecting.

 i was expecting to find trends, possibly meaning that either some components don't really make much of a difference or that some people have better ears.

 but some people seem to be ranking sources as a much higher priority than others. i'm not sure how to explain this, except that maybe some people have been exposed to players that have a very similar sound. i think many of the high end players really do have a similar sound. oddly enough, the biggest difference i ever heard with a source was a Harmon/Kardon cd changer with burr brown dacs. It sounded much smoother than other players I heard, including 3000 dollar Myriads which all sounded the same to me._

 


















 Okay... "Source First" is a huge force on HeadFi. Yet you "didn't expect people to put source as a high priority"? ?!?!?!? The signal you're hearing started in your source (duh, that's why we call it source), so of course it matters. If your source is bright, your entire system will be bright. etc. That's like saying "I'm surprised that people think Premium gasoline makes a difference in your car, I thought all gases were the same." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomek* 
_as well, i tried several solid state head amps and really couldn't tell. i'm one of the few people that admits that the headphone out of my receiver sounded just as good as some of the better headamps._

 












 IMHO and FWIW, I think what we should be questioning here is not the "truth" about what components sound different, but the "truth" about how accurate your ears are. I've heard my system unamped for a long time, and more recently a META42 and Gilmore V2SE on my system, and all 3 sound worlds different to me. I've heard my RME and E-MU (both have been compared favorably to CDPs), and they sound quite different. I've heard mods on both cards (source first, remember?) make a big difference in sound as well.

 If you can't hear a difference from things that DO make a difference, what's the point? Viva La *Team Ears First*


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## tomek

Can you read?

 I said that I was surprised that people disagreed so much about how they ranked sources with some saying no difference and others putting them way down at the bottom.

 And as for your golden ears, I'm delighted for you but I don't really care. I was asking for opinions from people who didn't just repeat the same standard responses and who maybe had differing opinions on what made a difference.

 In other words, if all you're going to do is crap on this thread then shutup.


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## philodox

well, I think that saint panda has basically hit it for me as well... that is pretty much the same list that I would write up... with the exception of the analoguer... never heard one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sduibek... woah... you really freaked out on tomek there buddy... like he said, I think you misread what he meant with the sources... I mean, take a look at tomek's source... its not cheap... and while I agree that solid state amps do have sonic differences, you can kind of see where he is coming from... there is a MUCH larger change between different tube amps from what I've seen... or heard if you will


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## tomek

i have had people over several times to test out gear. it's kinda my thing. and philodox has been a part of one of those meetings.

 in those tests, with numerous 'audio enthusiasts' and often musicians we've found little difference between several cd players and a very heavily modded ART D/IO DAC. Nothing really jumped out, although I have heard some differences in other cd players.

 I don't think it's a stretch to consider that many have a similar sound. I'm not talking about a $100 player compared to $1000, but I think once you hit a certain pricepoint you can guarantee that they are all doing their job well and that if they are all doing what they're supposed to with good components that they might have a similar sound.


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## Zanth

Big differences: Headphones, amps, cd players, Tubes, Line conditioner, Grado pads
 Medium differences: interconnect cables, opamps, outlets, power cords, 
 Minor differences: vibrapods
 No audible differences: rca caps

 I am 100% when discerning between front ends, vinyl or digital, same with amps and headphones obviously. Cables gets a bit more tricky with fast switching but with +10 minutes I can tell rather easily, especially with cables that have drastic sonic differences. Long term listening to decide on differences with things like the vibrapods was necessary.


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## Sultan165

Because of the law of diminishing returns, its understandable that going from a bad source/amp (no amp) to a good source/amp will yield a greater difference than going from a good source/amp to a great source/amp.
 In my case, I have two pcdp. The more expensive jvc player (it is actually quite good with dual 1 bit dacs back in 1993) stomps all over the sony. But the difference between that same jvc player and my current cdp is only marginal.
 In regards to amps (well in my case solid state), I think the difference is entirely dependent on the headphones. As between my super mini and ppa, there is only minimal difference when using my hd 590s. But when I use a power hungry headphone like the dt 770, the super mini doesn't have enough voltage to power them so the ppa is clearly superior.
 As for cables, the replacement equinox cable on the hd 590 helped some (although not worth the price to me). Upgrading from stock ICs to something better like headphiles yielded a minimal difference. To me, the headphiles had a little less noise, but largely the same sonic signature.


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## aerius

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sduibek* 
_That's like saying "I'm surprised that people think Premium gasoline makes a difference in your car, I thought all gases were the same." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

[off-topic] Unless you car engine has a high compression ratio, it doesn't matter what kind of friggin' gas you put in the tank, it'll run the same. The 0-60 time will be the same and so will the 1/4 mile time & speed. Technically speaking, high octane gas has a slightly higher heating value, meaning in theory you can get more power out of it, but it doesn't work out that way in practice. Only if you have a high compression engine will it matter what kind of gas you fill the tank with, since with those cars the engine controls retard the spark timing & adjust the fuel mixture to prevent knock when filled with low octane gas, which cuts the power.


----------



## DarkAngel

OK, I have had audiophile gear for 20 years now starting with my first purchase Rega Planar 3 in 1985. Here is list for 2 channel stereo system using speakers on a scale of 1-10:

*10-9 Major Sound Improvement, Foundation of System*
 CDP - Dac - Turntable.....your source for extracting musical info from sound media. Nothing makes more profound dramatic improvement and improves everything in audio chain downstream, essential to great system. Rapid advances/improvements in Dac design almost require upgrade every 3 years or so for CD based systems.

*7-8 Very Large impact*
 Speakers - Positioning of speakers in room.........although these are at the end of audio chain there is such a difference in quality and style between different designs that this becomes major factor in determining overall sound of system. Limited by quality of signal generated by system, but still probably 2nd most important variable in audio chain regardless.

*5-6 Important Impact*
 Power Amp - Preamp.......money well spent in this area will yeild very noticeable improvements, although modern gear has improved so much that for relatively small expense you can get very good results not far from best available

*3-4 Noticeable Impact*
 Cables - Power Conditioner - Dedicated AC circuit & upgrade wall outlet........this catagory is important and allows your existing gear to perform as effectively as possible. When you cut back in this area you gear will not work at optimum levels and sound info will be lost in the audio chain. Does not "improve" musical signal but makes sure it is degraded as little as possible before reaching speakers. The better your gear the more you will notice benefits in this area.

*1-2 Small Impact (tweaks) *
 Isolation devices, Auric Illuminator CD treatment, Herbies CD Mat, Mapleshade MikroSmooth, dampening/brass weights on audio equipment case. Very small individual improvements, more noticeable when several used together.


----------



## Welly Wu

*CORE FUNDAMENTALS*:

 SOURCE -> HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER -> HEADPHONES

*ESSENTIAL ACCESSORIES*:

 Power Conditioner -> Power Cords -> Interconnects

_TWEAKS & TIPS_:

 Operational Amplifiers, Internal Configurations / Settings (especially for universal DVD player owners), VibraPods, and SorboGel Big Feet.


----------



## meat01

This is funny, there aren't many skeptics posting here. It seems like all of the people who believe in everything under the sun, just at varying levels are posting.

 I am a skeptic who does not believe in interconnects, digital cables, headphone cables and probably sources over $500.

 I do think speaker positioning and room accoustics play an important role in sound quality. As far as headphones, these aren't an issue.


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* 
_This is funny, there aren't many skeptics posting here. It seems like all of the people who believe in everything under the sun, just at varying levels are posting.

 I am a skeptic who does not believe in interconnects, digital cables, headphone cables and probably sources over $500.

 I do think speaker positioning and room accoustics play an important role in sound quality. As far as headphones, these aren't an issue._

 

Oh, there are plenty of sceptic here, they just wait 'til the debates heat up abit...


----------



## tomek

i know, this thread was originally posted by me to find out what people *like* me considered the crucial upgrade points.

 the response i got was everyone telling me that interconnects were important.

 oh well


----------



## WmAx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_Oh, there are plenty of sceptic here, they just wait 'til the debates heat up abit... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nah, maybe they are just entertained, and don't want to disrupt the capfire stories.

 Personally, I always enjoy a good fiction story or two or three or four or five...

 -Chris


----------



## Tuberoller

I'm glad to see we're not fighting here and this seems like a fun thread. I'll join in and offer that I think the effects of certain tweaks have more to do with your chosen components than your ears. Example: speaker cables on cheesy speakers that sound bad will likely make little difference. I happen to think speaker cables border on voodoo so take that with a grain of salt. Anyway:

Big Differences:

 Sources(most obvious with analog)
 Cartridges
 Phono Stages
 Amps 
 Phones
 Speakers
 Speaker placement
 Sexual mood(music always sounds better when you're about to get laid)
 general condition of software(nice records always sound better)
 LP cleaning machine
 Room acoustics
 Interconnects(when used with a "Cable Cooker")
 Dust/Air cleaner

Smaller differences

 Interconnects
 Power conditioning
 Dedicated power source(I perhaps should put this in "big differences" but the effectiveness is selective).
 Isolation
 Dampening

Very small differences

 Power cords
 Sockets
 Various CD mats and treatments
 Those stupid CD edge cutters

Complete Voodoo

 Speaker cables
 Anything made by Shakti
 Cable elevators


----------



## tomek

tuberoller,

 so interconnects make a difference, but speaker cables are voodoo?

 i've always thought that if one made a difference to someone, both did, like all or nothing.

 where do headphone replacement cables stand?


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tuberoller* 
_Interconnects(when used with a "Cable Cooker")_

 

whats that?


----------



## tortie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_whats that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

"Cable cooking utilizes ultra-wide bandwidth sweeps with large voltages to open the cable for better electrical flow across all frequencies."

 Taken from VD's site.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_OK, I have had audiophile gear for 20 years now starting with my first purchase Rega Planar 3 in 1985. Here is list for 2 channel stereo system using speakers on a scale of 1-10:

*10-9 Major Sound Improvement, Foundation of System*
 CDP - Dac - Turntable.....your source for extracting musical info from sound media. Nothing makes more profound dramatic improvement and improves everything in audio chain downstream, essential to great system. Rapid advances/improvements in Dac design almost require upgrade every 3 years or so for CD based systems.

*7-8 Very Large impact*
 Speakers - Positioning of speakers in room.........although these are at the end of audio chain there is such a difference in quality and style between different designs that this becomes major factor in determining overall sound of system. Limited by quality of signal generated by system, but still probably 2nd most important variable in audio chain regardless.

*5-6 Important Impact*
 Power Amp - Preamp.......money well spent in this area will yeild very noticeable improvements, although modern gear has improved so much that for relatively small expense you can get very good results not far from best available

*3-4 Noticeable Impact*
 Cables - Power Conditioner - Dedicated AC circuit & upgrade wall outlet........this catagory is important and allows your existing gear to perform as effectively as possible. When you cut back in this area you gear will not work at optimum levels and sound info will be lost in the audio chain. Does not "improve" musical signal but makes sure it is degraded as little as possible before reaching speakers. The better your gear the more you will notice benefits in this area.

*1-2 Small Impact (tweaks) *
 Isolation devices, Auric Illuminator CD treatment, Herbies CD Mat, Mapleshade MikroSmooth, dampening/brass weights on audio equipment case. Very small individual improvements, more noticeable when several used together._

 


 Hooray! I was waiting on someone to come up with a nicely written ranking I agree with; and here it is. I would also add the difference between some tube and solid state amps can be VERY noticeable.


----------



## Hirsch

What's a skeptic? If it's someone who doesn't believe the hype until he hears for himself, I'll count myself in. I'm not going to rank any of the tweaks I've tried, for the simple reason that "big difference" and "no difference" are both possible for the same tweak. They don't always work. "Major" vs. "Minor" ranking is impossible out of the context in which the tweak is tried. Sometimes it's because the tweak itself is a crock, in which case "doesn't work" is possible, and sometimes it's because different systems are sensitive to different tweaks. The list below are some of the tweaks that have produced significant results for me in at least one system.

 dedicated power line
 Power cords
 Isolating digital and analog components on different power supplies
 interconnects
 keeping power cords away from interconnects
 power conditioners
 voltage regulation 
 (the power tweaks become critical if your system sounds better late at night)
 isolation footers
 coupling footers
 isolation bases
 chassis damping
 CD treatment (Auric Illuminator etc.)
 Bedini Ultra-Clarifier
 record cleaning
 LAST record treatment
 fluxbuster for MC cartridges
 tonearm alignment
 speaker/headphone positioning
 tube rolling
 tube damping
 platter mats
 CD damping mats

 These aren't "tweaks", but they matter:

 amp
 preamp
 headphone
 speaker
 source

 The actual results you obtain from any of this is going to depend completely on your own system, and your own preferences. A trivial tweak in one system can be "make or break" in another.


----------



## tomek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* 
_dedicated power line
 Power cords
 Isolating digital and analog components on different power supplies
 interconnects
 keeping power cords away from interconnects
 power conditioners
 voltage regulation 
 (the power tweaks become critical if your system sounds better late at night)
 isolation footers
 coupling footers
 isolation bases
 chassis damping
 CD treatment (Auric Illuminator etc.)
 Bedini Ultra-Clarifier
 record cleaning
 LAST record treatment
 fluxbuster for MC cartridges
 tonearm alignment
 speaker/headphone positioning
 tube rolling
 tube damping
 platter mats
 CD damping mats

 These aren't "tweaks", but they matter:

 amp
 preamp
 headphone
 speaker
 source_

 

So Hirsch, have you ever tried anything that _didn't_ work?


----------



## HD-5000

Quote:


 Sexual mood(music always sounds better when you're about to get laid) 
 

I wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## Ctn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomek* 
_i have had people over several times to test out gear. it's kinda my thing. and philodox has been a part of one of those meetings.

 in those tests, with numerous 'audio enthusiasts' and often musicians we've found little difference between several cd players and a very heavily modded ART D/IO DAC. Nothing really jumped out, although I have heard some differences in other cd players.

 I don't think it's a stretch to consider that many have a similar sound. I'm not talking about a $100 player compared to $1000, but I think once you hit a certain pricepoint you can guarantee that they are all doing their job well and that if they are all doing what they're supposed to with good components that they might have a similar sound._

 

I've found exactely the samething. It's more worthwhile upgrading the amp.


----------



## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomek* 
_So Hirsch, have you ever tried anything that didn't work? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, but that wasn't what the thread was about, if you read the title. In fact, most of the above have failed to make a noticeable difference at one time or another. It's not whether or not most of them work, or even how much. Rather, the key tends to be whether or not whatever is happening is useful to the system it's being done on.


----------



## cosmopragma

A sleeping mask is a valuable and cheap tweak.
 With my eyes open the headstage collapses, closing my eyes betters this, but the best is listening in total darkness.
 It's a difference like day and night.


----------



## DBT

Wont make a difference in sound quality(provided we are comparing reasonably quality products)
 Cables of any kind (unless you have a noise problem)
 Break-in (tubes may very well experience warm up time though)
 Cd-players
 MOST soundcards
 amplifiers (until you go past it's linear operating range or you are using a valve amp with an excessively high output impedence)
 vibration isolation (except for turntables)
 mass loading solid state electronics
 esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors
 power conditioning (unless you have TERRIBLE line conditions)

Makes a difference(could be distinguished in a double blind test)
 Speakers
 Headphones
 Turntables (including stylus, cartridge, tonearm, etc)
 Speaker placement, room characteristics, room treatments

 That's all I can think of for now


----------



## meat01

Now that is what I call a skeptic! I agree with most of it.


----------



## darkclouds

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* 
_Now that is what I call a skeptic! I agree with most of it._

 


 Or he just simply needs to try out more stuff... ie, a bit more experience.


----------



## tomek

Damn skippy! I like it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DBT* 
_Wont make a difference in sound quality(provided we are comparing reasonably quality products)
 Cables of any kind (unless you have a noise problem)
 Break-in (tubes may very well experience warm up time though)
 Cd-players
 MOST soundcards
 amplifiers (until you go past it's linear operating range or you are using a valve amp with an excessively high output impedence)
 vibration isolation (except for turntables)
 mass loading solid state electronics
 esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors
 power conditioning (unless you have TERRIBLE line conditions)

Makes a difference(could be distinguished in a double blind test)
 Speakers
 Headphones
 Turntables (including stylus, cartridge, tonearm, etc)
 Speaker placement, room characteristics, room treatments

 That's all I can think of for now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## D-EJ915

From my personal experience...what does make a difference:
 Sound Card, CD Deck, MD Deck (analog outputs)
 speaker angling (vertically and horizontally)
 speaker spikes
 speaker stands
 amplifiers
 Signal-Routing (through receiver or preamp)
 break-in/burn-in

 ...and a lot of the other practical stuff that everybody's ranting about...lol, this is the stuff I use/know


----------



## DBT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *darkclouds* 
_Or he just simply needs to try out more stuff... ie, a bit more experience._

 

What would you suggest I try?

 I've already done sighted (and a few blind) tests between most of the devices.

 I used to think amplifiers could make a significant audible difference a few years ago, but have since changed my mind. I think it's doubtfull I will change my mind back again


----------



## darkclouds

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DBT* 
_What would you suggest I try?

 I've already done sighted (and a few blind) tests between most of the devices.

 I used to think amplifiers could make a significant audible difference a few years ago, but have since changed my mind. I think it's doubtfull I will change my mind back again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I made the comment half jokingly but forgot the smiley. I doubt that I can change your mind, nor would I want to try. If you can't tell the difference between and mg Head OTL and a cmoy, then there's not much left for me to say. Same goes for differing levels of cdp, I've tried a several and the difference is easily discernable, even to my non audiophilic friends (going from scd555ES, modded art di/o, and scd-1). But as I've said, I'm not here to convince you of anything. I don't want to become one of those guys that swears on the effectiveness of bright shining pebbles and try to convince everyone else.


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DBT* 
_Wont make a difference in sound quality(provided we are comparing reasonably quality products)
 Cables of any kind (unless you have a noise problem)
 Break-in (tubes may very well experience warm up time though)
 Cd-players
 MOST soundcards
 amplifiers (until you go past it's linear operating range or you are using a valve amp with an excessively high output impedence)
 vibration isolation (except for turntables)
 mass loading solid state electronics
 esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors
 power conditioning (unless you have TERRIBLE line conditions)

Makes a difference(could be distinguished in a double blind test)
 Speakers
 Headphones
 Turntables (including stylus, cartridge, tonearm, etc)
 Speaker placement, room characteristics, room treatments

 That's all I can think of for now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

CD Players? No difference? Even in a shop with all the distractions and with my very limited experience I can hear the difference between many CD players in the same class...


----------



## ooheadsoo

I have to vehemently disagree with his point about amps too, especially with speakers. The difference is night and day between good and bad amps. I used to think like DBT. It's just amplifying the signal right? As long as it doesn't do anything wrong, it shouldn't make a significant difference. Not any more though. With speakers, the difference an amp makes is enormous. I have a hard time believing that you couldn't hear the difference with a big contrasting comparison. I will admit I have a hard time hearing the difference with headphones. Or maybe it's just that my senns are easily driven by any number of amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also dare you to try high capacitance cables with a passive preamp and tell me you can't hear that the sound is all jacked up (with decent speakers.)

 Btw, why vibration isolation for turn tables but not for cd players? The cds are being read by a laser sitting on an analog driven motor being spun by an analog motor. Plenty of analog going around that could suffer from vibration. I haven't really heard an improvement in my system though I will admit I haven't tried any expensive vibration dampening products. Nothing over $2 at least.

 "esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors" These all have measurable differences from cheaper parts. Value variations are much lower. That should offer some kind of benefit, audible or not.


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 Btw, why vibration isolation for turn tables but not for cd players? The cds are being read by a laser sitting on an analog driven motor being spun by an analog motor. 
 

The CD player laser is so much more precise and the platter is already suspended in such a way that isolation is not necessary. If the CD player needed isolation, you would hear the laser hit the wrong pit in the CD. The laser is optical and produces 1 and 0s. Also it does not physically touch the disc. Vibration does not cause a 1 to be a 0 and vice versa. I just don't think CD player vibration is audible. Sure it may vibrate, but the laser still hits the right section of the CD and the sound comes out the same to our ears.

 A turntable is a mechanical cartridge making physical contact to a record.


----------



## JaZZ

Like everybody else, instead of mere tweaks I'm simply listing all the stuff I can hear a difference with when changed.


*Decisive difference*
 Room acoustics (with speakers)

*Very obvious difference*
 Speakers
 Headphones
 Speaker placement (even mm can make a difference)

*Clearly noticeable difference*
 Amplifiers (all sorts and stages -- and not just between tubes and solid-state!)
 CD players and DACs
 CD vs. SACD format
 CD transports
 Meier Crossfeed
 Headphone positioning / loose grip--tight grip (headband/earpad wear-in/-out)
 Lencoclean fluid (for vinyl records)
 Record mats
 Phono cartridges (I'm sure arms and transports also make a lot of difference, but don't have much experience with analog sources)

*Minor, but still clearly audible difference*
 Headphone cables
 Interconnect cables
 Speaker cables
 Break-in effect with headphones
 Burn-in effect with amps
 Burn-in effect with Zu Mobius cable
 Tuberolling
 963SA upsampling effect
 Washing CDs before listening using water and dishwashing liquid (excellent free tweak, but a bit time-consuming -- just rinse the water/liquid from the disk with the water jet, so you don't have to rub it down)
 High-quality capacitors (with crossover networks)

*Subtle difference, could even be imaginated*
 Digital cables (thought I heard clear differences, but I'm not sure anymore with older, tinnitus-plagued ears)
 Black CD edges

*No difference*
 Cable splitters
 1/8"-->1/4" adapters
 Power conditioner (had one for a weekend years ago -- actually I don't doubt the effect under different circumstances or maybe with a different device)

*Not tried yet*
 Power cords
 Meier Analoguer (will soon have the opportunity to try)


----------



## ooheadsoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* 
_The CD player laser is so much more precise and the platter is already suspended in such a way that isolation is not necessary. If the CD player needed isolation, you would hear the laser hit the wrong pit in the CD. The laser is optical and produces 1 and 0s. Also it does not physically touch the disc. Vibration does not cause a 1 to be a 0 and vice versa. I just don't think CD player vibration is audible. Sure it may vibrate, but the laser still hits the right section of the CD and the sound comes out the same to our ears.

 A turntable is a mechanical cartridge making physical contact to a record._

 

The farther the laser is from the cd, the greater the room for error. I'm not talking about the laser mechanism itself. It's the motor that is spinning the cd and the motorized rack the laser is sitting on. These parts of a cd player can be so bad that all sorts of things can screw up. I have a dvd player that can't hold the disc any more and every few seconds or so, it'll drop the disc and I can hear it rattling inside the player. Everything is usually "ok" unless the buffer runs out while it's still trying to pick up the disc. However, with this astoundingly large level of error, I can't believe that the laser is being put in the right spot for it to read every single pit and land. It's highly unlikely IMO. As I mentioned before, I haven't heard a difference myself audio wise, but then again, I haven't tried anything costing more than $2 either. Not to mention my sources are all coupled to my right speaker through my desk, so I doubt any amount of vibration decouplers would help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of it helping in some minute degree as a 100% impossibility.


----------



## DBT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_ I also dare you to try high capacitance cables with a passive preamp and tell me you can't hear that the sound is all jacked up (with decent speakers.)

 Btw, why vibration isolation for turn tables but not for cd players? The cds are being read by a laser sitting on an analog driven motor being spun by an analog motor. Plenty of analog going around that could suffer from vibration. I haven't really heard an improvement in my system though I will admit I haven't tried any expensive vibration dampening products. Nothing over $2 at least.

 "esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors" These all have measurable differences from cheaper parts. Value variations are much lower. That should offer some kind of benefit, audible or not._

 

I wouldnt consider using a passive preamp with high capacitance cables, as the combination could (and probably would) cause an audible difference. Thats why I made the condition of using reasonable quality products in my list. IMO, using such passive devices in conjunction wouldnt be a good idea.

 Vibration for digital devices isnt a problem because the analog circuits aren't affected by it. A cd player being affected by vibration will either read the sample, or not (jitter be damed for a second 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), while a record player will still emit a sound even when violently shaken. The reason turntables are affected is because of the moving parts, the stylus touching the record and picking up the sound. Even very small vibrations could affect the sound to an audible extent. Now, if you live in an environment where your cd player is constantly being shaken to the point that it skips (can't think of any real world examples of this), then yes, I do believe that vibration isolation could help.

 The problem I see with exotic components is that they sometimes dont even spec out as well as cheaper ones. For example take the Autdiocap Theta and Kimber Cap and compare it to Solen's poly caps. The Audiocap and Kimber Cap have a 10 percent tolerance, while the Solen has a 5 percent tolerence. The Kimber and Audiocap also cost almost 10 times as much as the Solen. I realize that the capacitance value changes of 10 percent are very unlikely to be audible, but that still is ironic IMO. However, esoteric IS a pretty broad term, and while I may consider Solen to be reasonably priced, others may think it is too expensive, and electrolytic caps are a better value


----------



## darkclouds

I managed to spend an outrageous amount of money (for me anyway, about 1k total) on vibration damping consisting of custom made cherry platforms 3" and 4" thick for all of my components along with tube damping rings from herbie's audio lab and various cones/spikes. The results? I'd like to think it did something positive. But in all honesty, I'd have to say anywhere between a definitive "no" and "maybe imagined". What it does give me is peace of mind (as in I've taking care of every possible angle). And for what it's worth, I think it looks pretty cool with the cherry platforms and tube damping rings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hey, it's a freaken hobby! I don't have to be totally serious about it. You're supposed to be enjoying this.


----------



## DBT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_CD Players? No difference? Even in a shop with all the distractions and with my very limited experience I can hear the difference between many CD players in the same class..._

 

Not really. Even if the differences were so large, they would pale in comparison to the difference between headphones (or speakers). IMO, until you have the best of the best, worrying about the other components is somewhat wasted.

 I honestly doubt I will ever upgrade my headphones (hd-600) unless they break, so I am at the point where I have the best I can have. In december I upgraded to a M-audio Audiophile 2496 to replace the onboard sound in my computer (95% of my listening is done on the PC). I honestly heard little to no difference between the two driving the Cmoy (although the noise floor seemed lower on the audiophile).

 I also believe that it helps to know that you have quality components compared to cheaper ones. It helps *me* feel secure to have quality components, even though I know that they may not make an audible difference to me.


----------



## ooheadsoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DBT* 
_A cd player being affected by vibration will either read the sample, or not (jitter be damed for a second 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ),_

 

Actually, won't it either read the sample...or it will read something else? It's gonna read _something_ but not necessarily the sample. A pit could be read as a land, or a land could be read as a pit, or it could generate a read error and have to wait until the disc makes a revolution before making another attempt. In these 3 situations, only the third would be solved with a buffer.


----------



## tomek

at times like this, when the vibration of cd players is called into question and people worry about 'losing data' due to tiny vibrations, i'd like to remind everyone that their 25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players and they need to be correct bit for bit in order for software to function.


 i really don't think that cd vibration is an issue, especially not one that could be resolved outside of the player. come on, i know my audiophile cd player weighs 37lbs.


 jitter however, does make sense to me and I think it could be possible. whether it's audible or not I'm not sure yet. I've heard mixed reviews.


 tomek

 ps: fwiw, i use the cones that my CDP came with. hey, they look cool.


----------



## DBT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_Actually, won't it either read the sample...or it will read something else? It's gonna read something but not necessarily the sample. A pit could be read as a land, or a land could be read as a pit, or it could generate a read error and have to wait until the disc makes a revolution before making another attempt. In these 3 situations, only the third would be solved with a buffer._

 

Due to the error correction, I doubt it would pass the data, but I'm not very well read on compact disc 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Don't most cd players have buit in audio buffers anyways? I know portable cd players too. I'd assume they'd use them for home players now too


----------



## DBT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomek* 
_jitter however, does make sense to me and I think it could be possible. whether it's audible or not I'm not sure yet. I've heard mixed reviews._

 

I'm with you on jitter. Not really sure on how audible it is. I do think that in this day and age, even cheap cd players and dac's should be able to take care of it though.


----------



## ooheadsoo

I would imagine that they have some kind of buffer system by now...I really hate my dvd rom though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 CDroms definitely have buffers...and they aren't fool proof either, error correction be damned. Data also has several layers of encoding to protect its integrity. "25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players" And that's why they don't _really_ spin 40x faster 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a rather optimistic designation, most don't even reach 40x on the outside edge and let's not get into maintaining the speed because it can't read the data


----------



## peter braun

I reinforced the cabinets of my PSB Alpha A/Vs with a $4 piece of 1" x 10" particle board (cut and glued within the interior of the cabinet) and the difference is dramatic. I was considering purchasing either a pair of JmLab Chorus 705s ($350) or Epos ESL 3s ($300) but even after auditioning both speakers I do not feel that either offers a significant improvement over my modded PSBs. Anyone who is looking into a pair of speakers from $0-300 should consider this mod as it can save quite a bit of money. 

 P.S. For some reason my system always sounds warmer after dark.


----------



## SKA_tillites

The differences I've noticed on my kit.

Off board phono stage,provide a massive improvement to onboard ones.
Stylus, try to get the best you can,these really can improve the sound big time.
Arm, just something like a Rega RB300/600,really gives a lift in vinyl playback.

Source An offboard DAC,for me really improved CD playback,two that I have owned have really gave CD the kick it needed to sound acceptable.Vinyl deck really improve with better materials,isolation,power supplies for more than CD.

Speakers Well pretty clear when it comes to speakers,thier placement interaction with room modes and acoustics.


cables Well I have heard differences,but not great and certainly not night and day,Kimber PC did nada,whereas on the other hand the Shunyatas,were more dynamic,clearer ,louder,nice cables.

 Improvements using Audioquest speaker cables,again clearer,more natural,less grain,but no difference between the Indigo and the Midnight.

 In one room I heard big difference in interconects,but the same cable in a different room,seemed to lose the effect,strange!,but still like Audioquest Pythons,and my own Diamonds,not essential,but help improve the whole infrastructure of the system.

 Never really tried conditions,seem to have plus points an negatives,such as killing the groove,hmmm not nice.


----------



## tomek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_I would imagine that they have some kind of buffer system by now...I really hate my dvd rom though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 CDroms definitely have buffers...and they aren't fool proof either, error correction be damned. Data also has several layers of encoding to protect its integrity. "25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players" And that's why they don't really spin 40x faster 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a rather optimistic designation, most don't even reach 40x on the outside edge and let's not get into maintaining the speed because it can't read the data 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Well, if not 40x faster, I know they can spin at least 10x faster. And not all cd players have buffers. Older drives did not, and are the drives of choice for EAC. I use my older 40x drive that came with my 4 year old computer when I do extractions.

 I just can't buy into the idea that skipping over data is a problem in my 37lb Cd player with it's elaborate VRDS vibration reduction system that would be solved by some kind of external feet or cones, when my cdrom drive in my computer extracts audio information at 13x, checking over everything twice just to make sure.


----------



## ooheadsoo

Oh yeah. How much vibration are you guys thinking of when talking about vibration dampening? I, for one, have my cd player on my desk with a speaker sitting on the far right and a subwoofer firing at it from the left. I can very clearly feel my desk vibrating from the oscillation of my speakers, which will clearly shake my cd player up. Actually, all my amps are sitting on this desk too, including my tube pre


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## Ctn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_Oh yeah. How much vibration are you guys thinking of when talking about vibration dampening? I, for one, have my cd player on my desk with a speaker sitting on the far right and a subwoofer firing at it from the left. I can very clearly feel my desk vibrating from the oscillation of my speakers, which will clearly shake my cd player up. Actually, all my amps are sitting on this desk too, including my tube pre 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Enough to bring the house down


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## Mark of Cenla

Sorry, but I do not consider a component upgrade a "tweak". In a few weeks, I will buy a pair of Paradigm Titans to replace the Radio Shack bookshelf speakers in my bedroom. I am sure that just about anyone would be able to hear a huge difference in the sound quality.

 The tweak that worked for me was replacing the interconnects that came with my gear with Midwest Cables interconnects. The sounds is better in every way, and the DVD picture is more detailed. Peace.


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## Ticky

Tomek,

 Perhaps this is an example of what you were thinking about when you first requested for comments on "tweaks" that work (as oppose to component upgrade priorities).

*Tweak for Speakers* (sorry not headphones)

 I've read about this cheap tweak on an audiophile magazine many years ago. Was skeptical at first, but because it didn’t cost much I tried it out and found that it did improve performance by a touch. 

 You need to get some Styrofoam (ok, not environmentally friendly) – like those that comes as packaging for your electronics. You could either used foam from those packaging or go buy a rectangular foam sheet. Ideally, the foam should be at least ½ inch deep. 

 The tweak is simple. You cut two foam rings and glue it outside (i.e. along the outer circumference) of the tweeters - one ring for each tweeter. Care must be taken in measuring the diameter of the tweeters. The ring’s hole must be big enough not to cover the tweeter, but small enough such that it doesn’t leave too much space between the tweeter and the ring. The ring should be roughly ½ inch thick and ½ inch tall. 

 You might find that the speaker grilles might not fit on the speakers anymore, but on some speakers the grilles should still fit. I suggest placing some scotch tape around the tweeters and gluing the ring to the tape when you first try this tweak. That way, if you don’t like what you are hearing, you can put the rings off (and the tape along with it) without making any permanent marks on the speakers. 

 NOTE: AT NO TIME SHOULD THE FOAM, TAPE OR GLUE TOUCH THE TWEETERS. 

 This tweak might not work on some speakers because the tweeters are recessed deep into the cabinet or there are already built-in “rings” surrounding the tweeters. 

 Personally I’ve found this tweak improved the treble response on the speakers’ “sweet spot” zone. However, it comes at the expense of reducing treble dispersion outside the sweet spot by a touch. Treble in the sweet spot is more focused and less splashy sounding. 

 Try it out if you have the time and means. Have fun!


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## Ctn

You mean felt right? not foam.


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## ooheadsoo

1/2" felt? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He meant foam. Actually I've never seen it with styrofoam, only soft acoustically absorbent foam. Some speakers have a variation of this design, which is a strip of foam affixed perpendicular to the ground plane to the outside of the tweeter. However, many have commented that it does have beneficial effects, it may also skew the balance of the treble enough to have to alter the L pad value in the crossover.


----------



## Ticky

I can't recall exactly what the article said. But as far as I can remember the author used regular styrofoam - and hence, cheap tweak - and it works. I've always tried it using regular styrofoam and the improvements were noted. 

 I do like my music with a touch more treble. Hence, over brightness wasn't a problem. But, I think that the treble didn't become brighter. IMO, the quality of the treble improved, not quantity.


----------



## ooheadsoo

I think the styrofoam may be redirecting the treble towards your sweetspot as opposed to the acoustically absorbing foam sucking it in to prevent early reflections. Kinda like proactive room treatment. Might be opposite ideas.


----------



## tomek

I was in a stereo shop recently and was looking at the top of the line Tannoys that they had. Heavy felt lined the entire front baffle of the speaker.

 I've read recently that larger speakers don't image well because the baffle is a source of early reflections and was actually wondering whether this tweak of dampening the front of the speakers would become commonplace in several years. From what I remember reading at Audio Asylum, several manufacturers have begun to do this.

 Who knows....any want to try?


----------



## Ctn

I thought all good speakers have recessed tweeters with felt around them?


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## ooheadsoo

Recessed tweeters are usually for time alignment, but raises a whole bunch of baffle issues, some resulting in the need for you to use felt on the baffle, not to mention the ledge that is created between the tweet and the woof. Not exactly ideal. Plus you can't time align ALL of the frequencies, by definition, only a rough average, so it's still a compromising position. Some speakers like the new b&w designs deal with it by mounting the tweeter in its own enclosure sitting on top of the cabinet.


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## Ctn

How's this for thick felt.


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## JefferyK

Major Difference:
 - Granite tile between floorstanding speakers and suspended wood floor (really brought out the mids)
 - KABUSA Technics SL-1200 fluid damper (really cleaned up the image)
 - Speaker cable upgrade from cheap TARA Labs to Belden (solved a problem I was having with sibilance)

 Slight Difference:
 - KABUSA record grip (slightly cleans up the image)
 - Foam isolation blocks under CDP (slightly cleans up the image)
 - Eyeglasses cleaning cloth (wiping my CDs with this before playing slightly cleans up the image)
 - Hunt record brush (good at removing dust)

 Tweaks I Stopped Using:
 - Herbie's Grungebuster CD mat (cleaned up the grunge, but dulled the sound---I may try this one again)
 - Fluid CD treaments/CD markers (no audible difference and a huge PITA)

 As far as source components go, I can hear a difference in sound quality between every CDP I've ever tried in my system. I can also hear differences between ICs. I'm not deluding myself or putting my faith in hype: I'm merely trusting my own ears.

 Jeffery


----------



## Tomcat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JefferyK* 
_- Herbie's Grungebuster CD mat (cleaned up the grunge, but dulled the sound---I may try this one again)_

 

Amen, Jeffrey. My sentiments exactly. 

 And anything that involves wiping the CD before playing it seems to introduce some kind of static charge that has detrimental effects. 

 However, a CD tweak that has worked great for me is the Furutech Disc Demagnetizer.

 Another thing that works great for me are Cardas Golden Cuboid Wood Blocks - as component feet and on top of components. I have some DIY variants made from ebony and canarywood that perform even better than the myrtle wood Cardas uses (which dulls the sound to some degree). Hard to believe that a single 15 grams wood block placed on top can influence the resonance behaviour of a 10 kg CD player but to me, the difference is audible.

 Generally, I find it quite easy to perceive the effect a tweak has. The hard part is judging whether the change is an improvement. One cannot judge long-term effects on a system's musicality during a brief A/B-comparison.


----------



## edstrelow

Interesting to see the list of tweaks that people stop using after some period of use. I think this type of information is far more informative to other readers than double blind testing or a/b ing which are highly overated procedures and probably not appropriate to the psycho-physical type of judgments which are involved in audio. I agree that long-term listening probably is needed, and that it is easier to hear a difference than decide that this constitutes an improvement.

 The problem with A/B and Double blind testing to deterine what is real in audio is that it is not easy to perform a psychophysical test which keeps both false negatives and false positives at bay. Imagining that you hear a difference which is not there would be a false positive. Failing to detect a real difference is a false negative. An A/B or double blind comparison which finds a difference beyond statistical certainty is convincing but if it fails to find a difference this does not prove that that there is no difference. In statistical terminolgy, if you find a statistically signficant result you reject the null hypothesis (of no difference). You are almost never able to accept the null hypothesis and few if any statistical tests exist for this purpose.

 As a one-time practitioner in this area I should note that negative (i.e. no-difference) experimental results are almost always rejected for publication, in part because aside from statistical issues, any fool can carry out an experiment which doesn't work. You have failed to find a difference, not proven that there is no difference. Failure to find a difference may simply be due to experimental error.

 What sort or errors are we talking about? Firstly just confusion about what you are hearing, or listening for, such that your judgmental standard goes astray. In the end you are so confused you don't know what you are listening for.

 There may be equipment errors, for example I would not want to asses any interconnect just after being unplugged/replugged since the connection may take some time to settle down or break in. Cardas claims that cables should not be moved and be allowed to rest for several hours to avoid certain charging effects. You could avoid this somewhat by having an A/B switch, such that nothing actually moves but the switch. But can you be certain that adding this extra circuitry or breaking the circuit for comparisons does not affect performance? 

 The consequence of various manipulations may be simply to increase "noise" of various type in the system such that in the end everything sounds about the same and you swamp the difference with noise.

 What about warm-up effects as you continue to use equipment? Most equipment sound better as it warms up, possibly to some optimum then it may even deteriorate, making comparisons over time difficult and aren't almost all comparisons made over time.

 There are several other procedures available in psychophysics... testing thresholds by adjustments, assesing "just noticeable differences'' and many variations of these which are used to test for subtleties of perception. Generally such testing involves trained observers since taking the man off the street, or characteristically, the undergraduate psychology student, forced to do experiments as a course requirement just gets you unreliable data.

 As far as judging equipment or tweaks, I find that simply listening to material with which you are very familiar is about as good as you need. If I start hearing more detail or other good aspects of the music than I have heard before, then I am on the right track. Also the diffrence should show up over repeated listening. It used to be the custom of small audio shops to allow people to audition components and the like for several days in their own set-ups before buying. Alas such practices are now uncommon although most things bought through the mail are returnable within 30 days or so.

 As regards tweaks that I have finally rejected are a number of disk pad attachments, any one want a "Blacklight?" But I still think Herbies Grungebuster is great. I also continue to use CD weights, generally the old Allsop Sorbethane rings which which are almost impossible to find.

 Most disk polishes are not worth the effort unless your disks are dirty as generally you end up scratching the disc. However the Aric Illuminator has the best, non- scratching cleaing pads I have encountered and the the polish itself has a small effect. I think the black paint that come with it is about as effective as the polish. 

 "Tweak" contact enhancer is bad, it works, especially on bass, but later dirties up the contact. Pro-gold seems good and seems to clean the contacts too.


----------



## tomek

well, i've established a personal rule which states that although A/B may not reveal all differences, if a component provides a difference so subtle that I cannot even hear it when listening for it actively then I really don't need to spend the money on it. 

 i started this thread asking for advice on tweaks from the sort of people that have more extensive lists of tweaks that they have found not to work because they have similar guidelines to me in that they need to prove to themselves that it is the tweak making the difference, not just a placebo effect.


----------



## darkclouds

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edstrelow* 
_Interesting to see the list of tweaks that people stop using after some period of use. I think this type of information is far more informative to other readers than double blind testing or a/b ing which are highly overated procedures and probably not appropriate to the psycho-physical type of judgments which are involved in audio. I agree that long-term listening probably is needed, and that it is easier to hear a difference than decide that this constitutes an improvement.

 The problem with A/B and Double blind testing to deterine what is real in audio is that it is not easy to perform a psychophysical test which keeps both false negatives and false positives at bay. Imagining that you hear a difference which is not there would be a false positive. Failing to detect a real difference is a false negative. An A/B or double blind comparison which finds a difference beyond statistical certainty is convincing but if it fails to find a difference this does not prove that that there is no difference. In statistical terminolgy, if you find a statistically signficant result you reject the null hypothesis (of no difference). You are almost never able to accept the null hypothesis and few if any statistical tests exist for this purpose.

 As a one-time practitioner in this area I should note that negative (i.e. no-difference) experimental results are almost always rejected for publication, in part because aside from statistical issues, any fool can carry out an experiment which doesn't work. You have failed to find a difference, not proven that there is no difference. Failure to find a difference may simply be due to experimental error.

 What sort or errors are we talking about? Firstly just confusion about what you are hearing, or listening for, such that your judgmental standard goes astray. In the end you are so confused you don't know what you are listening for.

 There may be equipment errors, for example I would not want to asses any interconnect just after being unplugged/replugged since the connection may take some time to settle down or break in. Cardas claims that cables should not be moved and be allowed to rest for several hours to avoid certain charging effects. You could avoid this somewhat by having an A/B switch, such that nothing actually moves but the switch. But can you be certain that adding this extra circuitry or breaking the circuit for comparisons does not affect performance? 

 The consequence of various manipulations may be simply to increase "noise" of various type in the system such that in the end everything sounds about the same and you swamp the difference with noise.

 What about warm-up effects as you continue to use equipment? Most equipment sound better as it warms up, possibly to some optimum then it may even deteriorate, making comparisons over time difficult and aren't almost all comparisons made over time.

 There are several other procedures available in psychophysics... testing thresholds by adjustments, assesing "just noticeable differences'' and many variations of these which are used to test for subtleties of perception. Generally such testing involves trained observers since taking the man off the street, or characteristically, the undergraduate psychology student, forced to do experiments as a course requirement just gets you unreliable data.

 As far as judging equipment or tweaks, I find that simply listening to material with which you are very familiar is about as good as you need. If I start hearing more detail or other good aspects of the music than I have heard before, then I am on the right track. Also the diffrence should show up over repeated listening. It used to be the custom of small audio shops to allow people to audition components and the like for several days in their own set-ups before buying. Alas such practices are now uncommon although most things bought through the mail are returnable within 30 days or so.

 As regards tweaks that I have finally rejected are a number of disk pad attachments, any one want a "Blacklight?" But I still think Herbies Grungebuster is great. I also continue to use CD weights, generally the old Allsop Sorbethane rings which which are almost impossible to find.

 Most disk polishes are not worth the effort unless your disks are dirty as generally you end up scratching the disc. However the Aric Illuminator has the best, non- scratching cleaing pads I have encountered and the the polish itself has a small effect. I think the black paint that come with it is about as effective as the polish. 

 "Tweak" contact enhancer is bad, it works, especially on bass, but later dirties up the contact. Pro-gold seems good and seems to clean the contacts too._

 

Man, that just gave me a headache. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Kidding aside, I do agree with you for the most part. As with most gear that I buy, things don't just pop out at me immediately. But over a month or so, I'll start to notice certain things more. And usually, it's only in the absence of an item/component that I'll come to realize what it's effects were.


----------



## QSilver

Very comprehensive list there, and for the items that I have tried that come out of your list I would have to agree on everything you have said.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tortie* 
_Same here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here are my findings based on my different personal experiences with my headphone gear & tweaks.

*I tried hard but heard no difference*
*Rainbow Foil
 Vibrapods
 Brickwall vs Monstercable PC1000
 Y-Splitters
 Headphone adaptors
 Cardas Caps
 Isolating analog from digital power sources
 CDP Damping
 $30 powercords vs $100 powercords
*
*I think I can hear a difference, but im not really sure. I'll most likely fail in a DBT*
*$25 IC's & DIY IC's vs $80-100 IC's
 default powercords vs $30 & $100 powercords
 Using Grado extension cable
 963SA upsampling effect
 Burn-in effect in audio equipment
 SACD vs CD
 HD600 vs HD650
 Ferrites in general
 Headphone Replacement Cables using PC (Sound Blaster) as source
*
*Subtle but can be heard difference. Im optimistic to pass in a DBT*
*Headphone Replacement Cables using 963SA as source
 OP-Amp swapping
 Routing IC's and power cords separately in general
 Emmeline XP-7 vs Headroom MOH
 cheapo IC's vs $20 IC's & DYI IC's
*

*Clearly Noticable Difference*
*Grado Pad Swapping
 Amplification
 CD Player Mods done to my 963SA
 Shielded IC's used near computer equipment
 Routing unsheilded IC's and unshielded power cords separately
 Meta42 & RA-1 vs Headroom MOH, Emmeline XP-7
 Pinkfloyd X-feed*

*Very obvious, drastic & unmistakable difference*
*Computer soundcard (Sound blaster) vs cheap Pioneer CDP.
 Cheap Pioneer CDP vs Philips 963SA CDP
 No amp vs Meta42 & RA-1
 Headphones in general
 Headroom crossfeed
*

 Edit: added more info, made list more specific._


----------



## Nak Man

From tinears' experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Clearly heard:*
 - thin 24ga to 14-16ga speaker cables
 - phones amp and impedance matcher
 - shorter signal path / interconnects
 - caps and coils on speakers xo
 - pads / inner foam

*Mild (no blind test please =):*
 - stylus brush on shure carts
 - electronics caps bypass
 - tapes on 501 housing
 - hd600 grille on hd580
 - opamps upgrade

*Thought heard differences:*
 - different vinyl mats
 - steel vs ofc hd25 cables
 - clean, solid ac power contacts

*No success at all:*
 - same length interconnects
 - exotic speaker cables vs decent 16ga

 [size=xx-small]and some others that I've forgotten, will add later =)[/size]

*On components:*
 - speakers / phones
 - speakers placements
 - stylus > tuners > decks 
 - pre > power amps > arms
 - turntables > cdps


----------



## Jasper994

Cleaning one's ears...


----------



## Nak Man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jasper994* 
_Cleaning one's ears... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How come that didn't work for me ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oops, just realised this is almost a year old thread.


----------



## The_Mac

Things that I've found:

 Position of headphones on head. Wearing my cans with the driver lined up low and forward on the ear (small groovelike part right above the lobe is where I put the centre of the driver). Makes them sound best.

 Removing bad active components from signal path. I had an entry level DJ mixer in the signal chain to act as a switcher, removing it has made me happy.

 Removing the foam covering the drivers in my 580's. It made the tonal balance more pleasant for me.


----------



## Edwood

The best/worst tool I've used is a Headphone Switch Box (Ray Samuel's Style).

 It has utterly changed my opinions.

 So now I've noticed the largest changes in sound come in this order, from Most noticeable to no difference

 Headphones > Source > Power(in regards to Sources) > Amp(depends on the heaphones used) > Cables > Rainbow Foil


 -Ed


----------



## SportaJoe

Hey DBT i didnt think you were allowed to post in this forum.(DBT Free)


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SportaJoe* 
_Hey DBT i didnt think you were allowed to post in this forum.(DBT Free) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's technically SBT. 


 And I won't build one for free. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## morphie

I heard a BIG difference with:
 - Solid State amps
 - DAC

 Little difference with:
 - Tube amps
 - Cd Player

 No difference:
 - Interconnects between 50 and 150USD
 - Decent speaker cable


----------



## Welly Wu

Stuff that I believe is fundamental:
 1. source component -> 2. headphone amplifier -> 3. headphones or earphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -> 4. power conditioning. Also, MODDING EQUIPMENT ranks high on my list too IF the equipment delivers a lot of audio/video performance for the money ALREADY IN STOCK FORM.

 SPECIFIC stuff that I believe has made small and incremental improvements:
 1. Cardas interconnects -> 2. Cardas power cords -> 3. RingMat StatMat CDi Blue -> 4. Vibrapods -> 5. Cleaning fluids (Caig De-Oxit, etc.)

 Stuff that I believe makes no difference whatsoever:

 Shakti stones, cable lifters, cryogenic anything, Bybee filters, wooden knobs, DBS cables, and YOUR GOOD 'OL PROFESSIONAL HI-FI WRITER / MAGAZINE supported HEAVILY by ADVERTISERS


----------



## Rico

Hi,

 First of all, thanks for the theme of this thread. I used to be a new gears and reviews addict in my younger years, but took a serious step back when I made experiences that clearly opened my eyes and proved (in my opinion) that most of that industry is fooling us around.
 They're just beating around the bush avoiding the real questions and decisions. Keeping things blurred help them to sell all kinds of esoteric stuff and then just look at big kids spending lots of money and endlessly discussing completely subjective and perceptive feelings.
 You'll obviously wonder what I mean by "real questions and decisions" .... I'll put it simply by enumerating what I consider to be key points:

correct interconnections between elements just can't be achieved by two points only connectors (all sound professionnals use very efficient multi-point plugs why do we still have to bear RCA)

an international agreement on a standard way of wiring ground and chassis has to be made (it seems many electronic engineers fail to distinguish ground from chassis)

a serious (in terms of current throughput capability) replacement has to be found for ridiculous 0.5mm thick printed circuits on amps PCB.
 It's always been striking to me that no one seems to see the contradiction of buying expensive huge gauge cables to plug on the outside while the gears are so poorly wired inside : even if a printed circuit support 4A or 5A once stabilised in a stationnary mode in a test lab, it WON'T pass these 5A as a short term peak whithout a clearly audible distorsion ... the very kind of distorsion no one knows how to measure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



a serious replacement has to be found as well for this crappy cheap electrician cable usually found inside all gears to interconnect PCBs

and last (but no least): we should bannish stranded cables (whatever the complex heavily computed braiding), unless strands are electrically isolated from each other because no one can clearly predict a stable physical model of propagation in these !!












 Ok now, let's get back to the initial point of the post:

*No difference heard on:*
damping or adding mass or decoupling feet on preamp or cd player

replacing mains cables

replacing RCA plugs on interconnect cables by the latest always acclaimed expensive rubbish ones

increasing speaker cables gauge

*Slight difference heard on:*
change between different brands of interconnect cables

direct signal path button on my former amp

*Clear difference on:*
warming gears before listening

*Decisive quality increase on:*
replacing all the way from cd to the inside of preamp, amp and speakers all signal cables with phone type massive copper strands individually isolated

replacing all interconnect cables with cat 5 home made cables

replacing all RCA plugs by DIN and XLR

separating chassis and ground on all gears

making a tight connection of mains surge filter to ground (earth) and connecting all chassis to earth

adding damping feet under speakers

adjusting tweeter/medium/woofer relative positions (depth alignment) on a home made speaker

way of placing damping foam (and amount of damping foam) inside that same speaker

 Ok, that's all for today ... read you soon


----------



## Kurt

Nice first post Rico. Welcome.


----------



## rodentmacbeastie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Leporello* 
_Certainly one of those occasions when blind tests are not recommended at all.


 Regards,

 L._

 


 Blind tests in this regard might be as good as a listening test with people who won't listen. Women are always more beautiful in the dark. People can't hear the difference in a lot of these tweaks simply because they can't HEAR the difference. Some people wear glasses to correct the same problems with their eyes, it is a shame we don't have more elegant or socially accepted hearing aids and Q-tips.


----------



## rodentmacbeastie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *darkclouds* 
_I managed to spend an outrageous amount of money (for me anyway, about 1k total) on vibration damping consisting of custom made cherry platforms 3" and 4" thick for all of my components along with tube damping rings from herbie's audio lab and various cones/spikes. The results? I'd like to think it did something positive. But in all honesty, I'd have to say anywhere between a definitive "no" and "maybe imagined". What it does give me is peace of mind (as in I've taking care of every possible angle). And for what it's worth, I think it looks pretty cool with the cherry platforms and tube damping rings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hey, it's a freaken hobby! I don't have to be totally serious about it. You're supposed to be enjoying this._

 





 This is the type of attitude that I like. I personally find that the biggest improvement to my system is a well rolled spliff 10 to 15 minutes before serious listening. I also find that the subsequent relaxation and removal of lifes woes allow me to concentrate ont the subtle, but noticable changes of my other, secondary tweaks which all make a difference. Such as:

 -Headphone cable
 -NOS tubes(there is no way you can tell me that any current production tube sounds as good s my Valvo CCa's
 -my WooAudio3 firstlywhich has something that I know makes a diference, point to point wiring  and the love that it ws made with.
 -better CD's(I have numerous copies of my favorites and some are just plain better)
 -Upgraded guts.(saying that Black gates don't make difference to sound must mean that you are a satisfied Ford Mustang owner with a V6 under the hood! All companies cut corners to get there products to market. Hell, check out what jamato has done to the Woo, and it is much sexier than a Mustang)
 -Static Guard That's right, more snake oil. If you live in a dry environment, hit youself with some before listening, smells like crap though
 -Power cable Mr. Wu, knowing he builds high end products, doesn't include one with his amps which makes sense to me because those skinny black hunks of garbage are starting to pile up from previous components.
 -Conditioned power- the amount of difference will be determined by how crappy your power is. Amps like the SR-71/Berning MicroZotl evade this by being DC/battery sourced
 -Closed eyes/blindfold- less distractions = better concentration. Our brains are not the best multi tasking machines. Try adding 546 + 1227 - 67 = ? in your head while spelling your name backwards on paper. If you can do this successfully in a reasonable amount of time, go out and cure cancer
 -Are you ready?Bybee filters  work, get used to the idea. If we had to understand why everything is the way it is, you would not believe in any religion, right? Oh, and you would be smarter than me. lol
 -Wood everywhere. I mean wood chassis CD player, wood furniture, wood under your components, wood in your pants! Everything looks, sounds, feels, smells better with wood. Oh yeah, in some cases sounds considrably better. My wood chassis CD player, made with love, was a drastic improvement in sound. Chasis damping, ground isolation, sex appeal, whatever the reason is it sounds more organic.
 -Burn-in. If you don't believe in burn in, buy a new component plug it in and then smell it! Why would Bryston burn in every amp before they ship it? I will tell you why! They sound better, allowing them to sell more of them. If I owned a stereo store I would burn every component in before displaying them. This is the main reason why an Amp at Super Box Store "A" does not sound as good as the same one at the Little Shop on the corner with an insane owner/operator. Now don't take that advice and put your Little Shop owner out of business because he charges more. Try finding your salesman from The Super store a year later if you have a problem(he has probably had three jobs since then)
 -All cables. Just remember the law of diminishing returns.
 -Disposable income If you don't NEED the money it will mean that you won't put such a price on your tweak resulting in less of a price/performance comparison
 -Source[/COLOR] If you can't hear any difference when upgrading your source, this means that the previously mentioned tweaks/upgrades were not done and you got your work cut out before you will stop crying "snake oil!"


----------



## shimage

My (probably meaningless) contribution:

 So, I would consider myself one of the worse types of skeptics in that, if I can't fathom how something can make a difference, I assume that it doesn't make a difference. You can rule out a lot of stupid things this way (the most obvious fake is the green-edged CD thing; it makes less than zero sense). This behavior is born largely out of a need for economy, by the way, so there is little that I ordinarily can test (although I think I've spent an order of magnitude more than just about everyone I personally know on audio equipment [this does *not* include just about everyone on this forum, btw]), so I don't really have many comparisons to speak of... That said:

*Big-ish Difference*
 Obviously, using different headphones... 
 Using an admittedly crappy DAC instead of the analog outs on my AV710 (nevermind the DVD player...)
 Using a Corda HA-1 MKII instead of a Go-Vibe (duh...)

*Can't tell*
 Everything else

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 In other news, I have recently returned from the APS "March Meeting", where I signed up for (and attended) the "tutorial" on acoustics. The organiser and final presenter was a lecturing professor at a research university (but his research is in low T cond matter, not acoustics; he just happens to be an audiophile as well). Now, some of what he said still doesn't really convince me, but I will state here what does make sense to me. 

*Postulate:* The brain gives precedence to the time domain. It doesn't care so much about the phase information, but it does care a lot about coincidence. There is very very good coincidence detection [~10 microsec resolution] between one's ears and one's brain. There are experiments that purport to prove this, so I'm not going to dispute it. 

 One can understand a significant fraction of hardcore audiophile voodoo simply by accepting this postulate. Why do you put the different speaker elements in strange places? so that the timing is right. Why stereo subs? Why place them in the plane of the speakers? so that their timing is right (stereo because low frequencies are the most phase coherent, which doesn't really fit...). Why expensive cables? Because they have a faster response time (remember, you want <~10us). Discrete components? They're always faster than integrated circuits. No negative feedback? It slows circuits down; since we're intrested in transients, frequency analysis is ... well, inappropriate. 

 OKOKOK, but how much of this can you actually hear? He claimed it was obvious, but I dunno about that (he seems to have a budget about 50 times greater than mine, so it's not like I can check for myself). I tried out HD650s with stock and Cardas cables at a meet last January, and I couldn't tell the difference at all. But that was after listening for ... oh, a couple minutes, with 15 people yammering in the background, so who knows? What I *do* believe are his measurements concerning jitter. The guy took a Theta DAC, two cables, and some random people (I think ~10 or so) and tested them to see if they could spot the difference (looked like ~10--15 trials / person). No one made a mistake. So... I'm sold on the jitter, but the guy's DAC was ancient, so I figure a Benchmark DAC1 ought to do the trick, right


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