# *Comparison and Review* Magni/Modi vs O2/ODAC



## TMRaven

*The Objective Combo*

  
  
  
*The Schiit Stack*

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
*The Review*
  
 The two perform and sound too close to each other to make any *practical* differences. The Schiit Stack looks better and costs less.  Get the Schiit Stack.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
*For those who don't know how these combos sound:*
  
*Both* the Schiit Stack and Objective Combo can be described as as very neutral to slightly bright. The first thing you might notice when coming off of your computer's onboard sound or other components is the treble.  It might seem elevated or more apparent, and possibly way more resolving.  I find that, for the money, the Schiit Magni and Modi are very resolving in the upper registers-- and just like the Objective Combo, have a clean and clear presentation that allows for instrument separation to be off the charts.  Some might find both of these combos a little lacking in the deepest of bass extension and impact, and thus I ideally recommend them to be paired with neutral to warm sounding headphones, but they still sound fine with bright headphones and are a good upgrade from your average computer onboard audio.  For those who love to nitpick, the Schiit stack is remotely edgier and harder in presentation, while the Objective combo slightly softer in presentation.  This is a very over-generalized statement and made excessively blunt for the sake of comparison.  For the low amount of money that you're spending on one of these two combos, this tiny difference in sound shouldn't be influencing your buying decision; what should be is looks, features, functions, limitations, etc.
  
  
  
  
*Some differences outside of sound quality that might influence you into getting the Objective combo:*
  
- The Schiit Magni has a fixed gain of 14db, and a volume pot that's prone to channel balance at the lowest volumes, and increasing in volume fast the more you turn its dial up.  Because of this you get very, very little volume pot play with very sensitive headphones and IEMs.  If your main usage is IEMs or sensitive headphones like say-- AD700-- don't get the Magni and instead get the O2.
  
 - While the Magni requires a wall-wart to power-on, the O2 can run on batteries for a while.  That and the option to have the ODAC incorporated within its chasis as a combo might influence your decision to prefer it for transportable use.
  
  
  
  
  
*Songs Used:*
 Tool: Lateralus
 Mumford & Sons: Broken Crown
 Hans Zimmer: Mombasa
 Johnny Cash: Highwayman
 Trentemøller: Moan
 Jethro Tull: Up To Me
 Depeche Mode: Personal Jesus
 Beck: Paper Tiger
 Tbilisi Symphony Orchestra: Beethoven's Symphony 9 in D Minor
 Arne Domnerus, Bengt Hallberg et al: Jazz At The Pawnshop, Now's The Time
  
  
 All songs were level matched by ear with a Hifiman HE-400 before comparison.  Switching between the two source combos takes approximately 5 seconds.


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## Sniping

Love how this is to the point!


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## Neosk

Haha nice review.


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## Bboy500

That was.... short.
   
  Guess ima just get the Schiit and not look back. Either way it will be an upgrade over a FiiO E10


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## Canuck99

Which of the two would you say is better for the HD650 (I see one in your sig), or does it make no difference? I would just be using the amps.


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## saxophone

10/10 Fantastic


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## jerg

The real question is, would mixing-and-matching the DACs with the amps produce better / worse results? Since there are two components at play here in each combo, it could always be the possibility that one combo has a better DAC and the other a better amp, thus nullifying the differences.


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## MattTCG

Nice review Raven. Lots of people here waiting for this answer.


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## TMRaven

Quote: 





jerg said:


> The real question is, would mixing-and-matching the DACs with the amps produce better / worse results? Since there are two components at play here in each combo, it could always be the possibility that one combo has a better DAC and the other a better amp, thus nullifying the differences.


 
   
   
  At this price point, I rather keep the aesthetics of the stack intact.


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## TheGame21x

I like this review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Might be upgrading from my Fiio E9/E10 combo to the Schitt stack soon. Looks great.


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## tds101

Best.Gear.Review.Eva!!!


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## TMRaven

Quote: 





canuck99 said:


> Which of the two would you say is better for the HD650 (I see one in your sig), or does it make no difference? I would just be using the amps.


 
   
   
  I had one, but I sold it back.  My sig's confusing, the big, bolded ones are the ones I currently have.  I'm not sure they'd do the best with the HD650, or at least not to my liking.  They definitely add the treble sparkle and cleanliness like the objective combo does.  The very first thing I noticed with the magni/modi coming from a good amount of time with my computer audio, was just how much cleaner and more extended the treble was in comparison.  I remember the Objective combo giving me this same impression when I first got it and compared it with the Little Dot I had at the time.  However, I don't think it would add enough bass coloration for me with the HD650.  The main reason I didn't like the HD650 was for its lack of deep or impactful bass.


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## Canuck99

Thanks


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## Headzone

Been waiting so long for a review. Thanks  So it seems that Magni is the O2 killer. Looks better, has more power, and is cheaper! Awesome.


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## KazeNg

Nice review, straight to the point.
   
  But I still wanna know how the HE 400 sound like when pairing with the Schiit stack, can you give a little more details?


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## TMRaven

That might be hard unless I know what you're coming from.  As the review would allude to, they sound just like they would with the Objective combo.  In general, it's a very clean sound, and there's no emphasized bass compared to other, warmer amps or sources.
   
  The first thing you might notice is the difference in treble quality.


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## rawrster

It seems Schiit found a new market for their gear. At $200 I am wondering how these do sound and tempted to pick up a pair just to see how far $200 can go. Maybe I can pick up this for my AD2k which doesn't need much to sound good.


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## preproman




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## preproman

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> It seems Schiit found a new market for their gear. At $200 I am wondering how these do sound and tempted to pick up a pair just to see how far $200 can go. Maybe I can pick up this for my AD2k which doesn't need much to sound good.


 
  Yep,  and you wont have to get them re cabled.


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## MrMateoHead

One thing I like about the O2 combo is that you can, even with nothing playing, crank the volume to 100% and not hear a shred of hiss. Nothing. Totally black.
   
  Does this describe the Modi/Mangi too?


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## swmtnbiker

Yes.


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## Tofujr

BEST REVIEW. Love it!


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## Mad Lust Envy

So far comparing the stack to my ODAC/SA-31 combo is that the stack is definitely on the airy, clean side. No addition of warmth anywhere. Its just very clean. Makes the HE400 sound nicely balanced and airy, compared to the warmer, fuller SA-31. This is a very short impression. So far the stack has less bass, and more sparkle, though A-GD amps are warm/smoother up top by design.

I dont have the O2, but I will be comparing the Modi and ODAC off the SA-31 which has many inputs. I will also test the DACs with the Magni as the amp, though that wont be as easy due to the Magni only having one input.

TMRaven, I love your comparison.


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## earphiler

The Schiit stack looks nice, but I'm still not regretting getting on a good pair of O2+ODAC for $200 used. They seem to go for around this give or take.


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## Aaron1006

Just what I like to read, short, simple, and straight to the point haha.


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## earphiler

I hope this lowers the retail asking price of O2 and ODAC as a result, competition is always nice.


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## mosshorn

Geez TMRaven, calm down! This review is too long, I had to ctrl+F to find your verdict 
   
  All joking aside, thanks for clearing this up. Maybe now the Magni/Modi threads will clear up a bit


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## h4mm3r 0f th0r

So for u.s it is the schiit combo... for the rest, the jdslabs combo


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## Mad Lust Envy

Something about the stack and aesthetics that makes it more worthwhile to me. The ODAC is so discreet, and the O2 has a mess of cables in the front. I'd rather hide those away, while the Schiit stack is something I'm proud to have displayed.


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## imackler

I hate to say it again but there downfalls (bass distortion) with the ODAC and O2 when using high impedance phones (HD600) on high gains. In response to my question, John from JDS Labs said: "This occurs with O2 when using a strong source/DAC with some headphones. You simply need a higher voltage AC adapter to use high gain. More information can be found on the instructions guide." On the other hand, you can't ever make the Magni portable!


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## Tsujigiri

Like the concise review. Also, neat to know I'm not the only one who uses Hans Zimmer's Mombasa to test headphones.


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## Mad Lust Envy

Upon hearing the Magni, they basically reminded me of everything I read about the O2, so I trust Raven's overwhelmingly lengthy comparison.

Raven, btw, the Magni's volume knob is definitely off center. Let me guess... more towards the bottom right? I'm gonna guess they are all like that. The only fix I see is Schiit placing the hole in the steel more to the lower right in their future Magnis. Doesn't bother me though, as it's only really noticeable if you view it at eye level. Who does that? Unless the Magni sits high on a desk.

edit: Hooking up both the ODAC and Modi to my SA-31 at the same time. Switch time between the two is around a second (letting the SA-31 heat up the fire up the signal after the input switch).

Then using both the DACs with the Magni. Switch takes a few seconds.

The DACs really are stupid close in SQ. I can detect just like a VERY slight hint more bottom end on the ODAC than the Modi. And I'm speaking like in the realm of a few percents.


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## preproman

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Something about the stack and aesthetics that makes it more worthwhile to me. The ODAC is so discreet, and the O2 has a mess of cables in the front. I'd rather hide those away, while the Schiit stack is something I'm proud to have displayed.


 
   
   
  I never even looked at the O2/ODAC for that reason..
   
  I got the M&M stack for the opposite reason


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## Mad Lust Envy

For volume matching, I use two apps: Sound Meter, and Noise Meter on the Play Store. I place my phone between the drivers, and play pink noise. Was able to get basically the same decibel level on both programs, and both the Magni and SA-31. Not exactly the best tool, but I did this AFTER doing it by ear, and I was basically spot on with the app.

Listening to the differences on the Magni. The Modi is a little brighter than the ODAC. It's stupid to even put a number on it. The ODAC is just a teeny smidge more fleshed out, while the Modi is just a little sharper. You can tell in the bass as well. The HE-400 hits just a liiiiiiittle harder on the ODAC.

Is it enough to choose the ODAC over the Modi? Hmm... that's a tough call. Definitely not price-wise. I'd say the Modi is 99% the ODAC.

Believe it or not, I desperately want the Modi to be better than the ODAC, so I can put the ODAC for sale, but I can't lie. The ODAC is a very tiny footstep ahead.

If you're gonna get the Magni, just get the Modi. No reason to mismatch unless that price premium for that small micro percentage increase in body is worth it to you. The Schiit stack is definitely a fantastic combo for $200. If you're gonna nitpick over the details that the ODAC is worth it to you, then you should be looking at another amp anyways.

The difference really isn't enough to get a headache over. I'm sure the vast majority wouldn't even notice. Perhaps with the right headphone and super analytical listening, but who's gonna do that? 

I enjoy the HE-400 off both the ODAC and Modi and both my amps.

In fact, I'll consider the SA-31+ODAC my warm setup, and my Magni+Modi my neutral one. 



with flash, because I have horrible lighting in the room...



Don't let the image fool you. The SA-31 is 1.5x the width, and about 3x as deep as the Schiit stack. ODAC wedged in between them.


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## TMRaven

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Raven, btw, the Magni's volume knob is definitely off center. Let me guess... more towards the bottom right? I'm gonna guess they are all like that. The only fix I see is Schiit placing the hole in the steel more to the lower right in their future Magnis. Doesn't bother me though, as it's only really noticeable if you view it at eye level. Who does that? Unless the Magni sits high on a desk.


 
   
  It's not jus that.  Mine is off centered to the lower right as well, but I don't really mind that.  Mine is actually off-skewed a bit. It doesn't jut out perfectly straight, it sags a bit towards the end, and leans left a bit as well.


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## Mad Lust Envy

Can you take some up close pics of it? If you don't mind. Mine looks fine, aside from it sitting on that bottom right corner.


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## spaark

I'm curious to see objective measurements.
   
  Honestly at this point differentiating between different DACs is difficult (that's the impression I get). As for the amps, I'm guessing the Magni is very transparent like the O2.


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## TMRaven

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Can you take some up close pics of it? If you don't mind. Mine looks fine, aside from it sitting on that bottom right corner.


 
   
  Sure thing.  Although I'm away from my camera, so I had to take a pic with my lowly 1mp iPod.


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## thinh4u2

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Sure thing.  Although I'm away from my camera, so I had to take a pic with my lowly 1mp iPod.


 
  Not everything is created equally. Some have are knobs that are perfectly straight, some have knobs that bend and are sad looking


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## Marleybob217

So will the magni be a better amp than the built in amp of the audinst hud-mx1?
   
  I actually love the sound with my he-400 straight out of the hud-mx1, but I can't help but wonder if the sound would get even better
  with a more powerful amp!


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## wanze1210

haahhaa~~~ short and concise~~ its actually what everyone was wondering~~~ hmm~ i was really hoping for the schiit stack to be better than the O2 combo~ but after contemplating, i think that schiit still looks better~~ gotta get that schiits~~


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## PLUSSOUND

Haha nice lengthy review. Will definitely pick these up soon.


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## OmarCCX

How would the Magni/Modi combo compare to something like the Audinst HUD MX1. I conviced a friend of mine to get a DAC/Amp after he tried mine out and he can't decide between those two options.
   
  He's buying a Beyerdynamic DT880 to go along with them and he already has the HD595 and the ATH M50.


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## Marleybob217

Quote: 





omarccx said:


> How would the Magni/Modi combo compare to something like the Audinst HUD MX1. I conviced a friend of mine to get a DAC/Amp after he tried mine out and he can't decide between those two options.
> 
> He's buying a Beyerdynamic DT880 to go along with them and he already has the HD595 and the ATH M50.


 
  That is what i'm wondering. Well I have the audinst, I just want to know whether the magni will do a better job than the built in amp of the audinst.


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## FuzzyD

Probably one of the more useful and believable reviews I've read.


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## Dubstep Girl

awesome review! short and simple.


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## peter123

Great review!

Enough information for me to order the Magni


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## compoopers

CHEERS MATE!


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## adydula

Good read....I have had several Schiit Amps, the Asgard and the Lyr...and now have 2 O2's and 2 Odacs...Built one of the o2's . One of the O2's is a battery/AC adapter with an external enclosed Odac which i packaged with RCA and the mini USB jack for input and can use the RCA for the 2 ch speaker setup for use.
   
  I was waiting on the first impressions to see if the new Schiit stuff was going to be any better than the O2, so far it seems most think that they are very similiar except for the cosmetics etc...to some the cosmetics mean alot, to others not.
   
  After hearing the O2 amp with a HRT Music Streamer ii DAC, I didnt hesitate to sell the Asgard and the Lyr...so I dont think this new stuff would be that awesome to me.
   
  I will wait for some like Tyll to run some objective measurements to see what the specs look like.
   
  That said its good to see some nice looking low end stuff out there, and its maded in the USA!!!
   
  Go Team!
   
  Alex


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## RollTide09

> That is what i'm wondering. Well I have the audinst, I just want to know whether the magni will do a better job than the built in amp of the audinst.


 
   
  I currently have the Audinst and ordered the Schiit stack which should be coming in soon. I'll try to remember to share my thoughts. I'll be using the HD 650's and HE-400's.


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## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





imackler said:


> I hate to say it again but there downfalls (bass distortion) with the ODAC and O2 when using high impedance phones (HD600) on high gains. In response to my question, John from JDS Labs said: "This occurs with O2 when using a strong source/DAC with some headphones. You simply need a higher voltage AC adapter to use high gain. More information can be found on the instructions guide." On the other hand, you can't ever make the Magni portable!


 

 I've not heard of this problem before. Having just got teh ODAC, I notice that the strength of the output makes cruising up to 12 O'Clock or more quite loud. At stock 2.5x gain, you can clip on battery (I think), but not on AC. What gain/volume settings are you talking about? It would seem like you would have to be really cranking the crap out of the phones. Just curious.


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## imackler

Quote: 





mrmateohead said:


> I've not heard of this problem before. Having just got teh ODAC, I notice that the strength of the output makes cruising up to 12 O'Clock or more quite loud. At stock 2.5x gain, you can clip on battery (I think), but not on AC. What gain/volume settings are you talking about? It would seem like you would have to be really cranking the crap out of the phones. Just curious.


 
   
  Nope. Just your normal 9-10 pm. I really thought it was the headphones falling apart (HD650), but it was the ODAC/O2 combo. I felt better when JDS Labs confirmed it was a known issue. For me, I felt the HD650 needs the dynamics of high gain; low gain is fine, and I was perfectly happy with low gain with the HD600. But if you use an Ipod line out as source, you don't have the issue becaues of output impedance of ODAC... or something like that.


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## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Nope. Just your normal 9-10 pm. I really thought it was the headphones falling apart (HD650), but it was the ODAC/O2 combo. I felt better when JDS Labs confirmed it was a known issue. For me, I felt the HD650 needs the dynamics of high gain; low gain is fine, and I was perfectly happy with low gain with the HD600. But if you use an Ipod line out as source, you don't have the issue becaues of output impedance of ODAC... or something like that.


 

 Interesting. Yes, now that you mention it, @ 6.5X with relatively normal music playing, I can make the signal sound distorted without pushing into high volume. This was not an issue with a 1V or weaker signal source - I could make it to max volume under some conditions without getting distorted seeming to. Given the 2V output of the ODAC, chances are, a 1X or 2.5X gain are the most you really would ever need.


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## miceblue

Nice review....
   
  HOWEVER, you can't use the Magni as a transportable amp, so therefore if you need a semi-portable amp, go for the O2 since it can run on batteries.


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## Mad Lust Envy

Just got my Yuin G1A clip ons in.... sounds absolutely amazing off the Modi/Magni. I'm SO happy with these headphones on the Schiit Stack.


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## autoteleology

> Something about the stack and aesthetics that makes it more worthwhile to me. The ODAC is so discreet, and the O2 has a mess of cables in the front. I'd rather hide those away, while the Schiit stack is something I'm proud to have displayed.


 
   
  Not all O2s and ODACs are created equal. My custom O2 and ODAC look pretty darn fine, and my O2's volume knob doesn't need a Viagra to boot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Then again, I'd suppose getting better casing for the chipsets would probably mess up the price/performance ratio even more. Still totally worth it IMO.


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## Mad Lust Envy

Oh yeah, wanted to say mine looks that way too.


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## TMRaven

I figured it might be like that.  I saw someone else's pic and their magni volume pot was slightly askew as well.  It's not something that really bothers me, and I actually prefer the style of the magni's volume pot (long, gap between pot and casing) compared to the rest of schiit's amps.


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## euterpe

Hello I'm a complete newbie to this audio system area..
 I decided for a change and looked toward more dedicated sound setup for my PC
 I will be gaming a lot so I won't be getting a DAC, but getting a sound card(Ti-HD)...
 I have firmly decided that I will be getting Q701 and Ti-HD, but still haven't decided on an amp.
 Magni is quite new so I haven't seen any specific indepth review other than this thread.
 To the question.... Is O2 better or Magni better to drive the Q701s?

 I appreciate your answers! And I apologize to drop a question on a review...


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## Uberbob102000

Quote: 





euterpe said:


> Hello I'm a complete newbie to this audio system area..
> I decided for a change and looked toward more dedicated sound setup for my PC
> I will be gaming a lot so I won't be getting a DAC, but getting a sound card(Ti-HD)...
> I have firmly decided that I will be getting Q701 and Ti-HD, but still haven't decided on an amp.
> ...


 
   
  Either or should be fine, I'd personally say go with the Magni because it's cheaper and you can have it looks slick with power and input at the back.


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## cheuh

Would love to hear some more comparisons between the O2 vs Magni if anyone else has both of them.


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## euterpe

Quote: 





uberbob102000 said:


> Either or should be fine, I'd personally say go with the Magni because it's cheaper and you can have it looks slick with power and input at the back.


 
  i appreciate your reply!

 Will other people give their opinions to my question please?


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## adydula

I have the O2 amp and ODAC, with Q701's...absolutely no issue driving them to their fullest capabilities...
   
  Alex


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## ostewart

O2 is now all black, looks super sleek, and you get free custom artwork on it too, so it can be unique 

Would like to try the Schiit though, but am more than happy with the O2 and JDS Labs customer support is excellent! Best out there


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## Mad Lust Envy

The only way I'd consider the O2 is if the only thing on the front plate was the headphone jack, volume pot, and power button (though I don't mind a rear power switch). Inputs should ALWAYS be in the back. It looks hideous in the front. It may as well be turned around...volume pot aside.


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## autoteleology

> It may as well be turned around...volume pot aside.


 
   
  I ALMOST did that when I set up my rig.



> O2 is now all black, looks super sleek, and you get free custom artwork on it too, so it can be unique


 
   
  What? Where is this from?


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## ostewart

http://www.head-fi.org/t/638453/jds-labs-o2-black-edition-amplifier-unboxing/15#post_8991265


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## miceblue

Quote: 





tus-chan said:


> > It may as well be turned around...volume pot aside.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  If you order the O2 from JDS Labs, you can contact their support, or leave a message/note when you order that you want a black front plate. John of JDS Labs gave me the option but I opted out since I wanted the silver front to match the silver front of the ODAC.


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## Dano91

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Nope. Just your normal 9-10 pm. I really thought it was the headphones falling apart (HD650), but it was the ODAC/O2 combo. I felt better when JDS Labs confirmed it was a known issue. For me, I felt the HD650 needs the dynamics of high gain; low gain is fine, and I was perfectly happy with low gain with the HD600. But if you use an Ipod line out as source, you don't have the issue becaues of output impedance of ODAC... or something like that.


 

 I wouldn't call it an issue. To put it simply, O2 amp is not designed to be used with 6.5x gain if dac with high output is connected. (ODAC has 2V output).
  6.5x gain is for sources like ipod..
   
  More technically, on AC with 2.5x gain max input is 2.8V. With 6.5x it's around 1.1V
  On battery with 2.5x it's 1.8V and with 6.5x only 0.7V.
   
  So with 6.5x gain you are overloading the input stage of O2, which translates to clipped sound.


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## TMRaven

Explain to me how a higher gain on the O2 gives more dynamics?


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## shadow419

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> The only way I'd consider the O2 is if the only thing on the front plate was the headphone jack, volume pot, and power button (though I don't mind a rear power switch). Inputs should ALWAYS be in the back. It looks hideous in the front. It may as well be turned around...volume pot aside.


 
  Build your own and the problem is non existent. It really is easy.


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## Mad Lust Envy

I'm not one for DIY, ever. That is sexy though.


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## chicolom

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> *The Review*
> 
> The two perform too close to each other to make any practical difference.


 
   
  LOL.  Love it!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Ahh...that was refreshing.


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## sappl3s

Great review!
   
  Think I am going to get Magni/Modi with a pair of HE 400's


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## ostewart

O2 review: (some very nice pictures included)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/643435/review-jds-labs-o2-black-edition


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## TMRaven

Cool review.  Nice to include the blind A/B.
   
  Bifrost clicking all the time sounds like a no-go to me.


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## htxmade

Would the Schiit Stack be good for the DT990 600 OHM headphones?


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## TMRaven

Not to me. I rather get something straight-up dark sounding to make them less cold sounding.


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## htxmade

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Not to me. I rather get something straight-up dark sounding to make them less cold sounding.


 
  What would you recommend?


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## TMRaven

Probably a bottlehead crack or other similarly dark otl tube amps.


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## ThatNzGuy

Aesthetics and brand patriotism aside, it costs relatively the same amount to own either stack. Which?


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## TMRaven

If you DIY, the Objective combo can cost the same or a little less.  
   
  Aside aesthetics and logistic choices, which I can't stress enough here, the Objective combo is slightly smoothed out and more even sounding with a tad, tad more extended bass, while the Schiit stack is a little more aggressive and solid sounding, with a tad more clarity up top.
   
  These are minute differences, I'm talking like less than 3%.  3% is not something you should worry yourself over at this price point.  Get the combo that looks better or has features that most benefit you.


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## swmtnbiker

tmraven said:


> If you DIY, the Objective combo can cost the same or a little less.
> 
> Aside aesthetics and logistic choices, which I can't stress enough here, the Objective combo is slightly smoothed out and more even sounding with a tad, tad more extended bass, while the Schiit stack is a little more aggressive and solid sounding, with a tad more clarity up top.
> 
> These are minute differences, I'm talking like less than 3%.  3% is not something you should worry yourself over at this price point.  Get the combo that looks better or has features that most benefit you.




+1


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## aspburgers

I'm doing a Magni + Odac combo, was this stupid?


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## TMRaven

If you find a clever way of hiding the Odac, the Magni looks pretty good on its own.  I never took the time to compare the two dacs.


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## proton007

I liked the O2 because of the DIY factor....nothing better than soldering each component yourself


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## keanex

Quote: 





htxmade said:


> What would you recommend?


 
   
  I recommend getting any neutral amp and EQing your headphones. It's a silly idea to me to find a dark, bright, or whatever headphone amp. That's a hardware change that costs money and might not mesh well with your other gear or future gear. Getting a clean neutral amp that can power most headphones will allow for you to get the sound you want through EQing.
   
  Edit: I'm a fan of the O2 myself, but the Magni, or any other clean, neutral, and powerful amp would be my suggestion if you don't like the looks of the O2, which is the biggest flaw of it in my opinion.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

aspburgers said:


> I'm doing a Magni + Odac combo, was this stupid?




It's slightly better sounding than the Modi/Magni combo. The ODAC is slightly more fleshed out and dimensional than the Modi. It's very hard to compare as it takes time to swap out the DACs, but I came in with expectations that they would sound identical, but the ODAC did sound better to me.


----------



## adydula

I agree, cosmetically the O2 has its worts for sure.....but the transparent aspect, its well thought out design and the DIY aspect make up for those for me....
   
  Alex


----------



## aspburgers

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> It's slightly better sounding than the Modi/Magni combo. The ODAC is slightly more fleshed out and dimensional than the Modi. It's very hard to compare as it takes time to swap out the DACs, but I came in with expectations that they would sound identical, but the ODAC did sound better to me.


 

 thanks for the info


----------



## wes008

When I saw this thread I made sure I got all my homework done, made up a cup of coffee, and sat down for a nice, long, in-depth read. I finished it in 15 seconds :/ Thanks for the direct comparison though! I'll probably go with the Schiit stack.


----------



## TMRaven

So good!  Yes, you should get the Schiit stack.
   
  For those unfamiliar with the Way the Objectives sound, I will write a short but sweet (not as short and sweet as my review section) paragraph of the way the Schiit stack sounds in general.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





aspburgers said:


> I'm doing a Magni + Odac combo, was this stupid?


 

 No, that's what I'm doing and it's just fine.
  I don't know how the Modi sounds though. Maybe it's warmer than the ODAC to some? Highly doubt it..


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





keanex said:


> I recommend getting any neutral amp and EQing your headphones. It's a silly idea to me to find a dark, bright, or whatever headphone amp. That's a hardware change that costs money and might not mesh well with your other gear or future gear. Getting a clean neutral amp that can power most headphones will allow for you to get the sound you want through EQing.
> 
> Edit: I'm a fan of the O2 myself, but the Magni, or any other clean, neutral, and powerful amp would be my suggestion if you don't like the looks of the O2, which is the biggest flaw of it in my opinion.


 
   
  Well, if the Magni was so neutral, you'd think it would be good with EVERY headphone. So far this doesn't seem to be the case unless it's sound smooths out.
   
  It'll be interesting to compare the ODAC to the Modi and change to different sources. Maybe the Modi is adding in brightness (I mean still flat as they say) and it's not so much the Magni itself. I have the ODAC, so I'm guess that's not the case.
   
  I hope I can eat my words and the Magni won't be as bright sounding after 20+ hours of use. I can't detect any warmth in it at all, but i'm ok with that.


----------



## TMRaven

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> Well, if the Magni was so neutral, you'd think it would be good with EVERY headphone. So far this doesn't seem to be the case unless it's sound smooths out.


 
   
  Not entirely the case, because 9/10 'audiophile' headphones on today's market are bright/thin to begin with-- all at the expense of clarity and detail.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

tdockweiler said:


> No, that's what I'm doing and it's just fine.
> I don't know how the Modi sounds though. Maybe it's warmer than the ODAC to some? Highly doubt it..




Definitely brighter.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i sure hope to see a magni-tube amp for a triple decker on our desks...just a single tiny tube.


----------



## keanex

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> Well, if the Magni was so neutral, you'd think it would be good with EVERY headphone. So far this doesn't seem to be the case unless it's sound smooths out.
> 
> It'll be interesting to compare the ODAC to the Modi and change to different sources. Maybe the Modi is adding in brightness (I mean still flat as they say) and it's not so much the Magni itself. I have the ODAC, so I'm guess that's not the case.
> 
> I hope I can eat my words and the Magni won't be as bright sounding after 20+ hours of use. I can't detect any warmth in it at all, but i'm ok with that.


 
   
  If the Magni can power the headphone then it should sound good with the headphone assuming you like the headphones sound signature. Remember the Magni is a neutral amp, it's not bright and it's not changing the sound, you're simply hearing the sound the way the headphone manufacturer intended you to hear music through it. Maybe you're used to amps that emphasize bass or roll off highs, but the Magni and O2 do nothing to change the sound. If you don't like how the headphones sound through a neutral amp then the chances are you don't like the signature of the headphone and should look into EQ or a pair that suits you better.


----------



## TMRaven

Edited first post with general description of how these components sound.


----------



## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Edited first post with general description of how these components sound.


 

 I agree with your O2+ODAC assessment. I didn't think the change from computer to ODAC was night and day, but the black noise floor of the Objective gear certainly seems to have made the "treble" ranges a bit more apparent. Was a veil lifted? Its been too long for me to remember. But sure, the noise floor was certainly lowered meaningfully (which I was hoping for).


----------



## antberg

subbed.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





keanex said:


> If the Magni can power the headphone then it should sound good with the headphone assuming you like the headphones sound signature. *Remember the Magni is a neutral amp, it's not bright and it's not changing the sound, you're simply hearing the sound the way the headphone manufacturer intended you to hear music through it.* Maybe you're used to amps that emphasize bass or roll off highs, but the Magni and O2 do nothing to change the sound. If you don't like how the headphones sound through a neutral amp then the chances are you don't like the signature of the headphone and should look into EQ or a pair that suits you better.


 
   
  I don't agree with this at all yet. I've had the DJ100 for 3 years and it definitely makes it more trebly. The problem though is that the amp doesn't have more than 8 hours of use on it. Supposedly some say the amps brightness smooths out with use. It definitely seems to have slightly emphasized treble out of the box. I'll know more soon. How do you know it's truly neutral? Are you just going by what someone says or random posters? Even if Schiit says so, it doesn't matter much to me.
   
  Even the HD-650 sounds slightly different than it should. It's a lot less forgiving and I do like this sometimes. It's soundstage magically increased in size too.
   
  The differences are not huge and the Magni could very well measure flat, but I doubt it. It sounds like it has slightly rolled off low bass and very slightly emphasized treble. It'll be interesting to connect up different sources and compare it to the O2.
   
  My Micro Amp sounds much more balanced and I don't find it warm or having rolled off bass/treble (saw some measurements recently, but for the portable version). I'm going to use the Magni for 25+ hours and hope I can eat my words about it's treble. I don't believe or not believe burn-in of amps. Should be an interesting experiment.
   
  It'll be fun to connect up different sources to the Magni and see if I can hear the differences easily. On my E9 it's very difficult, but on the Micro Amp it's stupid easy. I don't know the technical reason for this.
   
  I do love the Magni with my HD-650, Sextett and HD-598. A bit disappointed with it when using the Q701 and K601. Probably needs burn in


----------



## adamlr

im very close to pulling the trigger on the schiit stack and id appreciate if someone could clear something up for me?
  iv heard its flat, if its too bright, ill eq the treble down abit - not a problem as far as im concerned. but what does it do with the bass? im sure it will outperform my laptop dac and my portable amps, no doubt, but would this combo be a bad idea for a bass head? all i want is a  reasonably flat response dac+amp that wont effect the music too much, so that i can effect it myself with eq. i want to pair it with dt 770s btw.
   
  many thanks


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I'm using it with the SHURE 1840, it doesn't increase or decrease the bass just increased the treble a little bit, go get them


----------



## adydula

Has anyone seen any 'real' objective reviews with some real measurements so we can really compare to the published O2 specs?
   
  Alex


----------



## compoopers

Moreover, why was it that at first, people seemed to think that the Magni/Modi were pretty much the same to the O2/ODAC, and now suddenly after a couple people mention it, everyone is flooding with the idea that it is bright?

I'm incredibly skeptical of these claims until an A/B/X test can be done to determine if the modi/magni is truly brighter or if people are just imagining it.


----------



## proton007

Any idea why the Schiit combo is cheaper than the O2/ODAC combo?
   
  What is the technical difference between the two? Apart from the obvious battery and gain differences, that is.


----------



## Tequilasunriser

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Any idea why the Schiit combo is cheaper than the O2/ODAC combo?
> 
> What is the technical difference between the two? Apart from the obvious battery and gain differences, that is.


 
  NwAvGuy (the dude that designed the ODAC/O2) and Schiit don't exactly get along and noting says "screw YOU!" better than under cutting the competition.
   
  Modi and Magni are a direct result of the existence of the ODAC/O2, which was/is the king of the budget DACs and amps. Now with Modi and Mangi Schiit can enter the budget minded market.
   
  I love competition in the market place, it creates better values for the consumer in the end.


----------



## BrokeStudent

Quote: 





tequilasunriser said:


> I love competition in the market place, it creates better values for the consumer in the end.


 
   
  It's exactly why I finally bit the bullet and went with a full budget setup. I wanted a pair of HE-400's but couldn't justify another $350 (after shipping and broker to canada) for a DAC/AMP. This combo is nearly $100 cheaper and that was enough for me to place my orders.
   
  Competition really is great.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Any idea why the Schiit combo is cheaper than the O2/ODAC combo?
> 
> What is the technical difference between the two? Apart from the obvious battery and gain differences, that is.


 
   
  Hm...
   
  Magni vs. O2:
  Materials costs for both are pretty low, for high-volume orders, probably even lower for Magni because no batteries, steel rather than aluminum enclosure.  The ICs that both use should all be pretty cheap, even the op amps in the O2.  Neither has heatsinks inside I think, and both just use a AC/AC wallwart with the Magni's needing to be a little more expensive.  Magni has primarily surface-mount parts (i.e. placed and soldered by machine), so with a large order there, labor costs should be lower.  That's where the real savings are, even though apparently one can stuff and solder an O2 in about half an hour.
   
  Modi vs. ODAC:
  Again, materials costs should be pretty low for both.  The ODAC is all surface-mount parts inside, with probably pretty much the same story for the Modi.  ODAC is $100 for a board from a reseller like JDSLabs, which includes profits for the reseller as well as for George Boudreau (the guy that did mostly the USB part of the design, gets the boards ordered, and so on).  Original pricing was based on trying to break even on a couple / few hundred boards.  I think they've surpassed original targets by a fair margin by now.
   
  Anyway, it's not like the price points for any of these are close to total production and labor costs.  Pricing is based on whatever profit margin they want to keep.  That said, most more-expensive audio gear has much much higher margins than these products.
   
  ODAC and Modi materials costs have to be less than something like FiiO E10, which also has an internal amp and has dropped in price to about $55 on Amazon now.
   
  edit: personally I think attributing the pricing to any other product in particular, as some are doing here, is probably a stretch.  But I know even less about business, so that's just my guess.


----------



## Tequilasunriser

Quote: 





compoopers said:


> now suddenly after a couple people mention it, everyone is flooding with the idea that it is bright?


 
   
  Welcome to headphilia. People round these parts hear a lot of things that they're not actually hearing. People parrot the same sentiments over and over and it gets especially bad when it's a high profile member making the original statement. For the longest time Head-Fi was convinced that the Beyer DT880s had no bass. I read it everywhere.. no bass. The DT880s put out a filthy amount of bass if you want them to. Head rattling, fatiguing bass, again, if you want them to.
   
  The best advice you'll get from Head-fi is to not take advice from Head-fi as everything is subjective. (I'm probably cruisin' for a bruisin' with that statement and this post, but it's true.)
   
  Don't worry about the "bright" criticisms. In all likelihood the people parroting that claim either A.) Don't own it and haven't heard it but want to give their useless input, or B.) Can't hear for s*** and just use the last guys critique because it sounded good, takes little effort, and goes along with the status quo.


----------



## compoopers

Tequila, I personally don't mind anecdotal, non-statistical reviews, but I agree with your point that most of it is biased and almost none of the first week or two of impressions end up being true.

The nail in the coffin was headfonia's reviews, which are almost *always* biased toward some ********. When he claimed that they were bright, but "bad for bass-heavy headphones", while tons of here are parroting the same thing yet saying it's "bad for bass light headphones", I thought to myself, "if it's bad for bass-heavy, and bad for bass-light, what the hell is it good for?" That's when I realized that there's got to be some problems with what people are saying. Put that together with the fact that basically no one mentioned it's brightness (aside from a small tinge, maybe) until like, yesterday, and I'm incredibly skeptical. I'll wait for more A/B/X tests and measurements. In all likelihood, the Magni/Modi and the O2/ODAC are incredibly similar in measurement, if not identical. These "bright" claims are either gripes about incredibly minimal differences, or bias in the head.


----------



## asdfghjkzxcvbnm

haha the Schiit Stack


----------



## asdfghjkzxcvbnm

Well this is crap I just bought E09K+E17, it's worse than the magni+modi and it costs more?


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





mikeaj said:


> Hm...
> 
> Magni vs. O2:
> Materials costs for both are pretty low, for high-volume orders, probably even lower for Magni because no batteries, steel rather than aluminum enclosure.  The ICs that both use should all be pretty cheap, even the op amps in the O2.  Neither has heatsinks inside I think, and both just use a AC/AC wallwart with the Magni's needing to be a little more expensive.  Magni has primarily surface-mount parts (i.e. placed and soldered by machine), so with a large order there, labor costs should be lower.  That's where the real savings are, even though apparently one can stuff and solder an O2 in about half an hour.
> ...


 

 Interesting. Seems like Schiit is really trying to compete with the O2, and looks like the same thing Google did with their Nexus line, selling it at lower margin to penetrate the market.
   
  It will be interesting to see how the two compare in terms of measurements.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





asdfghjkzxcvbnm said:


> Well this is crap I just bought E09K+E17, it's worse than the magni+modi and it costs more?


 

 Not entirely worse. The E17 is a DAC + Amp in itself, and also includes a screen, bass boost, battery power and Coax/Optical option.
   
  So in terms of the feature set, I think the combo price is alright. It can sell for a lot more if re-badged as a more famous brand.


----------



## asdfghjkzxcvbnm

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Not entirely worse. The E17 is a DAC + Amp in itself, and also includes a screen, bass boost, battery power and Coax/Optical option.


 
  What can I can actually do with Coax/optical?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Certain devices only have SPDIF out, so no USB capabilities...

As for the M&M vs Fiio setup, spend some time with them and level match, and I bet the differences wouldn't as huge as you make it sound.

The E17+E9K is a terrific setup, and much more versatile, with additional functions that will further tweak the sound to your liking.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





asdfghjkzxcvbnm said:


> What can I can actually do with Coax/optical?


 
   
  Maybe no use to you, but that doesn't make it a bad deal.


----------



## iMusicLover

Hello guys O2+ Odac are good for HE- 500 or i should see for other my max budget are 300$.


----------



## papazoid

here is a Magni/Modi review from Headfonia....
   
http://www.headfonia.com/schitty-magni-and-modi/
   
   
  the review,  while giving the magni/modi combo high marks, suggests that the Aune T1 (amp & dac combo) is better than the magni/modi for sound quality and tube customization options, while being very close in price after adding in cables.
   
  any comments ?


----------



## BrokeStudent

Quote: 





papazoid said:


> here is a Magni/Modi review from Headfonia....
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/schitty-magni-and-modi/
> 
> ...


 
   
  The guy is nuts to think that you need to add another $100 worth of cables to get good sound out of the M&M stack. All you're missing is a single USB cable and RCA cables. You don't need to spend any more than $5 on a USB cable, the RCA's are up to you.
   
  Also, if he's so set on his $80 USB cable, how come he doesn't add it to his Aune T1 stack? The cable that comes with it must *surely(/sarcasm)* be worse then the $80 one he mentions, so why not add it to the cost of the T1 stack too ?
   
  Next thing I'm going to hear is that the stack needs special fairy electricity to sound good, which is another $100 at least!


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





brokestudent said:


> The guy is nuts to think that you need to add another $100 worth of cables to get good sound out of the M&M stack. All you're missing is a single USB cable, you don't need to spend any more than $5 on one.
> 
> Next thing I'm going to hear is that the stack needs special fairy electricity to sound good, which is another $100 at least!


 
   
  Any review that suggests a cable upgrade >> not good.


----------



## Tequilasunriser

papazoid said:


> here is a Magni/Modi review from Headfonia....
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/schitty-magni-and-modi/
> 
> ...




What a waste of time reading that was. I facepalmed when he said the Asgard has a wider soundstage than the Magni. It's an amp... amps do nothing but power your headphones, so they'll either power them adequately or they won't. Tubes are another story, but that's of no concern here. The factor that will affect soundstage will be your headphones and your DAC but even mentioning the DAC is stretching it. The superstitions and misinformation in this hobby has gotten way out of hand and it's one of the reasons I haven't been around for a year, because of knuckleheads like the guy at headphonia.


----------



## imackler

I'm really disappointed by the usb thing, too, in the review. I overall enjoy their website, but stuff like that makes you wonder how much other ideas like that influence their reviews... Even with that, that review was not _not _their best. I don't always agree with their opinion or their end conclusions, but most of the time you have a really good idea why they like something or not.


----------



## adydula

All this subjective analysis although interesting is well just that...interesting.....need I say more?
   
  I want to see the specs of the O2 and the Schitt amp side by side....
   
  Too many adjectives and superlatives....need real data....
   
  Alex


----------



## keanex

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> I don't agree with this at all yet. I've had the DJ100 for 3 years and it definitely makes it more trebly. The problem though is that the amp doesn't have more than 8 hours of use on it. Supposedly some say the amps brightness smooths out with use. It definitely seems to have slightly emphasized treble out of the box. I'll know more soon. How do you know it's truly neutral? Are you just going by what someone says or random posters? Even if Schiit says so, it doesn't matter much to me.
> 
> Even the HD-650 sounds slightly different than it should. It's a lot less forgiving and I do like this sometimes. It's soundstage magically increased in size too.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm going buy the measurements provided by Schiit in regards to the Magni. There's nothing that should indicate it changing the sound through the signal path at all. I'm not going to touch the idea of burn-in for a solid state amplifier though, I'll just say that I think that it's a silly notion.
   
  As for Headfonia reviews, I know that they have many writers, but the only thing I ever go there for is the pictures. I haven't ever read a review there I have agreed with.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





keanex said:


> I'm going buy the measurements provided by Schiit in regards to the Magni. There's nothing that should indicate it changing the sound through the signal path at all. I'm not going to touch the idea of burn-in for a solid state amplifier though, I'll just say that I think that it's a silly notion.
> 
> As for Headfonia reviews, I know that they have many writers, but the only thing I ever go there for is the pictures. I haven't ever read a review there I have agreed with.


 
   
  I agree with Alex above, I'd like to see a proper test of the Magni.


----------



## mikeaj

Well, people already complain about 5x gain, volume pot in lower range, etc.  Doesn't seem like a good fit for most IEMs, somewhat like FiiO E9.  At least output impedance is low.  Schiit believes in one-size-fit-all and no gain options to keep prices lower—not sure if I do, and I usually am against the feature-creep side.
   
  Note that distortion figures are given at 1V with an *unspecified load*.  Many people are looking to (sometimes) exceed that, and with lower-impedance headphones like the current popular planar magnetics.  Listed figures would be plenty great, but it's possible that real-world performance may be worse enough to make a difference.
   
   
   



proton007 said:


> Interesting. Seems like Schiit is really trying to compete with the O2, and looks like the same thing Google did with their Nexus line, selling it at lower margin to penetrate the market.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the two compare in terms of measurements.


 

   
  Well, I think a lot of the things done are what make sense for any commercial product.  You're not going to just use an existing enclosure like the aluminum Box Enclosures option the O2 has.  Also, except at the high price points, you're going to avoid through-hole components whenever possible.  Sure, you can get a small performance advantage with some through-hole parts in critical locations, but if the O2 were not designed for DIY, you would see a different structure and surface-mount parts, probably a Li-ion battery, and so on.


----------



## TheGame21x

Well, after my experience with the Magni and Modi (referenced here and here), I went ahead and ordered the JDS Labs O2 + ODAC and plan on selling my Schiit stack when the replacement gets here.


----------



## adydula

Here is what I am looking for for a spec comparison:
   

 Impedance less than 2 ohms
 Input impedance >= 10K
 Frequency response +/- 0.25 dB 20 hz – 20 Khz 400 mV 16-600 Ohms
 Phase response less than +/- 2 degrees error 100 hz - 20 Khz 16-600 Ohms
 Absolute phase: Preserved
 Slew Rate greater than 3 V/uS using 10 Khz square wave near full output 600 Ohms
 Distortion under 0.01% 20hz – 20 Khz into 16 – 600 ohms from 10 mV – 400 mV RMS
 Channel separation better than -40 dB @ 16 ohms and –60 dB @ 150 ohms 400 mV RMS
 Channel balance error less than 1 dB at any setting down to –45 dB below max volume
 Noise under –105 dBv (103 dBu) unweighted (5.6 uV or -97 dBr referenced to 400 mV)
 DC offset under 5 mV typical, and ideally, under 20 mV worst case
 100% stable with any realistic reactive load from 16 – 600 ohms
 Transient ringing and overshoot tightly controlled with all realistic headphone loads and 0.01 uF
 166 mA per channel, both channels driven, peak current capability at < 1% THD
 6.25 volts RMS on AC power at < 1% THD into 150 ohms
   
  I removed any ones that pertain to the battery in the O2, this would not be fair.
   
  Alex


----------



## papazoid

Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> Well, after my experience with the Magni and Modi (referenced here and here), I went ahead and ordered the JDS Labs O2 + ODAC and plan on selling my Schiit stack when the replacement gets here.


 
   
   
  the O2+ODAC combo or seperate units ?


----------



## TheGame21x

Quote: 





papazoid said:


> the O2+ODAC combo or seperate units ?


 

 The O2 with ODAC built in.


----------



## Tequilasunriser

thegame21x said:


> The O2 with ODAC built in.




I'd get them separate in case you'd ever like to hook your DAC up to a receiver or integrated amp in the future if you plan to listen to speakers.


----------



## TheGame21x

Quote: 





tequilasunriser said:


> I'd get them separate in case you'd ever like to hook your DAC up to a receiver or integrated amp in the future if you plan to listen to speakers.


 

 Eh, that doesn't concern me. I plan on using it exclusively with headphones from one computer or the line in from my iPhone or whatever.


----------



## moshen

Quote: 





imusiclover said:


> Hello guys O2+ Odac are good for HE- 500 or i should see for other my max budget are 300$.


 
   
  They work great. They can power them to ear-splitting volumes.. I have mine with 1x/2.5x gain and use it with 1x gain.


----------



## moshen

Quote: 





brokestudent said:


> The guy is nuts to think that you need to add another $100 worth of cables to get good sound out of the M&M stack. All you're missing is a single USB cable and RCA cables. You don't need to spend any more than $5 on a USB cable, the RCA's are up to you.
> 
> Also, if he's so set on his $80 USB cable, how come he doesn't add it to his Aune T1 stack? The cable that comes with it must *surely(/sarcasm)* be worse then the $80 one he mentions, so why not add it to the cost of the T1 stack too ?
> 
> Next thing I'm going to hear is that the stack needs special fairy electricity to sound good, which is another $100 at least!


 
  I agree, Headfonia's reviews are generally a crapshoot and mostly on the crap part of that. Once a reviewer claims to hear a difference in USB cables or RCA cables I can't help but write off everything they say.. and Headfonia is all about that..


----------



## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





papazoid said:


> here is a Magni/Modi review from Headfonia....
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/schitty-magni-and-modi/
> 
> ...


 
  The Review Says:
   
  "_It is a great entry level Hi-Fi amplifier that will be adored by anyone who does not want congestion on their desk at work, inside their college dorm room or perhaps even on their bedside table. I can see it working extremely well in these types of situations, but never as a primary home amplifier for Orthos_."
   
  Then it says:
   
  "_The Magni’s 1.2watt output is generally overkill for use with the HE400. I would not call the Magni a great match up for this Hifiman headphone, it just lacks the bass quantity to get the job done by itself._"
   
  Umm . . . what? Either it makes enough power, or it doesn't. Amps don't have bass quantity, headphones do.
   
  "_Sadly, the HE-400 really showcases too much sibilance with the Magni for my ears. 1,200mw into 32ohm is very good for $99 and will drive any Ortho with plenty of volume._"
   
  Wait, so it works great with the HE 400? Didn't you just say it didn't?
   
  "_There is no doubt the Asgard has better sound stage all around, but it sounds more grainy to my ears._"
   
  Uh, what?
   
  "_The Magni is well suited for use with the more budget oriented IEMs and surprisingly worked out very nicely with my ClearTunes CT-200 Customs. I detect a very small amount of hiss, but it goes completely unnoticed when music starts up. She’s quiet…real quiet_."
   
  So the amp hisses. That would make it BAD for IEMs and other headphones in general. Having hiss does not = quiet, real quiet. Unless you are are used to blaring hiss, I guess.
   
  "_I can’t really recall any portable amplifiers that sound as clear or as smooth as the Magni…and I’ve been through dozens of portables this year alone. I feel safe in saying the clarity on the Magni for this price is a 10/10 and that clarity is on par with portable amplifiers 4x its price._"
   
  I can't really recall any portable amplifiers that claimed to compete with dedicated desktop equipment either, so this is a pretty apples to oranges pointless comparison. I am sure that my O2, at 1/1000 the price of some equipment is also "equally clear" - lol.
   
  "_I’ve never kept any portable amplifiers I have ever owned, but I do want to keep the Magni. By that fact alone, I think my ears pick up more clarity through the Magni than they have with any portable amplifier I have ever heard_."
   
  I am equally sure that anyone that wants portability will never, ever buy the Magni. Because its not portable.
   
_"I’d avoid bass-heavy headphones, as well as sets known for great soundstage depth. The Schiit Combo just doesn’t cut it in those areas."_
   
  Doesn't cut it in what areas? An amp can't add bass or take it away, unless it is a s*** amp. So which is it?
   
  "_the Magni does not have the low end to do justice with the Ortho headphones or anything bassy. Beyond that, the sound staging qualities are not up to par with the Schiit Asgard, so it doesn’t go well with spacious sounding headphones._"
   
  Got it - avoid using this amp with bassy, spacious headphones. Even though you've contradicted yourself for two pages, this rules out every buying this amp, since I doubt people are shopping for bass-less headphones with no soundstage.
   
  If he gets paid to write this sort of absolute useless crap review, I will be very disappointed. Because I could write something even crappier, and I am looking for work.


----------



## compoopers

MrMateo, I had the exact same thoughts reading the review. Contradictions and random statements everywhere. He was making it up on the go.


----------



## proton007

Still waiting for a professional review *with measurements*.


----------



## asdfghjkzxcvbnm

Oh god 
"_I’ve never kept any portable amplifiers I have ever owned, but I do want to keep the Magni."_


----------



## cheuh

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Still waiting for a professional review *with measurements*.


 
   
  This.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Still waiting for a professional review *with measurements*.


 
   
  Oh no, please not another measurements discussion 
  Btw, I just read in the comment section that the guy who wrote the article is no longer writing for Headfonia, that was his last review


----------



## adydula

So the guys is gone....That makes it much better.....
   
  What no measurements??
   
  Whats wrong with facts versus opinions,,, rather have opinions based on facts...
   
  The O2 spectacular performance is built around good engineering, design, implementation and getting the most out of the lowest dollar components to prove a point.
   
  It has caused many other amp vendors/OEM to step up to the plate with measurements that in the past have'nt been that well published etc...
   
  Its a good thing! IMO.
   
  Alex


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





adydula said:


> So the guys us gone....That makes it much better.....
> 
> What no measurements??
> 
> ...


 

  x100.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





mrmateohead said:


> _"I’d avoid bass-heavy headphones, as well as sets known for great soundstage depth. The Schiit Combo just doesn’t cut it in those areas."_
> 
> Doesn't cut it in what areas? An amp can't add bass or take it away, unless it is a s*** amp. So which is it?


 
   
  Where did you get this idea? Tons of good (and high quality) amps have rolled off bass. I would say that could "take it away".
  This includes the Fiio E9, E5, Ipod 5.5's amp, Total Airhead and a few others. My crappy Nuforce Icon Mobile rolls off at 100hz or something(!!!).
  I probably couldn't hear much low bass at all. That fits your description of a "s***" amp though, but the others don't.
   
  The reviewer claims it doesn't roll off the bass, yet it's bad for anything bass heavy. Makes no sense. Since he labels it as "smooth sounding" theres no reason i should be bad for a bass heavy headphone. When I first head the Magni I felt it possibly had some rolled off low-bass. But for $99 some minor roll off is OK.
   
  The Magni's soundstage is great. It's very large and almost seem artificially huge but that's impossible right? Some background details on my Q701 are so distant that it's almost like they're at the point of going missing. I have a few good tracks for testing soundstage size. It's probably as good as the Asgard if not better in this area. It improved my HD-650 so much in this area, same with the Sextett. The DAC plays a huge role too of course.
   
  I also can't believe someone would find a person saying they hear a difference in RCA cables to be offensive. I believe an upgrade to a high quality wire like Mogami etc is worth it. Doesn't cost much at all. It's not a huge difference. Silver plated copper or silver would sound awful on the Magni. Go ahead and try that! What would sound best is a higher capacitance wire like Canare or Mogami. The difference is how thin/bright and full/warm everything sounds.
   
  I also use the finest USB cables. This one for $2000 sounds great. Only kidding..
   
  Oh and FYI $30 at retail for a USB cable is VERY common. You know..not everyone buys cables online. Local stores carry USB cables for $20-$30. I prefer using ones without Ferrite beads.
   
  If anyone has a Magni they should connect up a bunch of different sources and see if it's easy to tell the difference. On some amps it's stupid easy. One time I was reviewing my Micro Amp and I almost accidentally described it's sound signature when in fact it was just the DAC (which was fairly colored, yet people claim it's neutral). Even with the ODAC the Magni is still fairly bright. Maybe the Magni is just more revealing of what's connected to it than the Micro. Very unlikely.


----------



## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> *Where did you get this idea? Tons of good (and high quality) amps have rolled off bass. I would say that could "take it away".*
> This includes the Fiio E9, E5, Ipod 5.5's amp, Total Airhead and a few others. My crappy Nuforce Icon Mobile rolls off at 100hz or something(!!!).
> I probably couldn't hear much low bass at all. That fits your description of a "s***" amp though, but the others don't.
> 
> ...


 
  Rolled off, or rolled up bass, coming from a source, amp, CD Player, whatever, is distortion, IMHO, NOT an endearing characteristic. A flat frequency response within the audible range is a good frequency response, plain and simple. You wouldn't buy a brand new car that "pulls to the left on the highway" would you? For me its the same with audio - my amps should amplify the sound, not alter it.
   
  On that note, now I am wondering if the Magni rolls off the bass within the audible range, or, being rated for headphones as low as 32 Ohms, may have a high output impedance. If it is bad for "bassy phones", because it will sound sloppy or bass light, this could be a real issue that shows up in actual testing.
   
  I still like the review best that just simply said something like "couldn't tell the difference, Schiit is cheaper, get the Schiit".


----------



## iMusicLover

wrong post!


----------



## keanex

Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> Eh, that doesn't concern me. I plan on using it exclusively with headphones from one computer or the line in from my iPhone or whatever.


 
  If you ever do want to go from a combo to the separate stand-alones I would love to trade.


----------



## wes008

Alright, I was going to pull the trigger on the Magni, buuuuuut with all of the talk on the bass being better on the O2, I've had second thoughts. So I have to ask, is the bass on the Magni less than satisfactory (in the opinion of whoever wants to respond), or is it just worse by comparison? (and in that event, is the O2 worth the extra $50 for desirable bass?)


----------



## TMRaven

There won't be any appreciable difference in bass levels or extension if that's what you're wondering.


----------



## compoopers

I'm looking into the Magni/Modi but I'm using the Sony MDR Z1000s which are known to have slightly anemic bass. Personally I find them okay, but I'm worried that Magni/Modi will exacerbate the problem and make it more noticeable. Thoughts?


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I am using the shure 1840 which also had light bass and the M/M combo doesn't do anything that alters what I hear when I first heard the bass response...NOTHING. As for the reviews on the differences, if the magni/modified is your first amp/dac, then you really shouldn't take the said differences as night and day differences since the they are already proven to be in the same quality as O2/Odac. They are just minor differences


----------



## adydula

I have (2) O2's and ODACS...that said I wouldnt hesitate to try the Schiit stuff....they really look like a nice stack to have and play with....the O2 and ODAC may be better, more transparent etc but I would guess that most of us would be hard pressed to really tell the difference.
   
  Alex


----------



## wes008

Thanks TMRaven. You're made this a great thread


----------



## USAudio

wes008 said:


> ... is the bass on the Magni less than satisfactory ...?



The Magni has tons of power, a flat FR and an output impedance less than 0.01 ... Unless there's something I am missing, the Magni's bass should be as good as any other properly designed amp?


----------



## DangerToast

I've heard that there's a significant hiss when using the Magni+Modi and the HE-400's, potentially because the headphones are low impedance, the amp is relatively powerful, and there's no gain options. Has anyone using the schiit stack with the HE-400 (or other low impedance headphones) experienced this?
   
  As far as I know, nobody's ever complained about hiss coming from the o2/odac.


----------



## TMRaven

There's zero hiss issues.  I frequent the HE-400 topics.  The only hiss related post I came across was a guy possibly complaining about the he-400 and the magni/modi bringing out tape hiss too much in certain recordings.  That's not the same as having a hiss because of an amp.


----------



## adydula

There are a buch more specs other that output impedance...although this is an important one for sure.
   
  Alex


----------



## xnor

The biggest problem seems to be the fixed 5x gain with the magni.
   
  The modi outputs 1.5V * 5 = 7.5V, yet most ~30 ohm headphones only need below 0.01V to below 0.1V for 85 dB SPL. That's already loud with the volume control turned down to -58 to -38 dB.
  But most pots already have channel balance problems at -40 dB... and things don't get better if you use a proper 2Vrms source.
   
  A guy in the magni thread posted he's usually listening with the volume control at 8 o'clock! But with the right gain the usable volume control range should be 9 to 2 o'clock.


----------



## TMRaven

It's definitely not an amp for sensitive headphones.  With the HE-400, I average around 9 o'clock.  With high dynamic recordings I can get up to around 11 o'clock.  With reducitve EQ and high dynamic range recordings I can get up to around 1-2 o'clock.  That's enough play for me. 
   
  Admittedly there's a little more channel imbalance at the lowest of volume pot positions on the Magni compared to the O2, so I guess if people were wanting to power sensitive headphones and listen at lower levels, the O2 might be a better choice.


----------



## dustinsterk

Thank you for this review!


----------



## adydula

I would definitely recommend the O2 for sensitive cans...for sure.....and its "hiss-proof" as well.....
   
  The ability to change the gain with the O2 also is a good idea....
   
  Alex


----------



## MrMateoHead

Seems like the Magni has some pretty obvious design issues then.
   
  I think the sound quality checks out, from others descriptions but otherwise, Magni=fail. The gain issues and volume pot should be adjusted. I don't "get" a 5X gain anyway. For the power it puts out, I would think it could get by well on no gain - 2X, like the O2.


----------



## wcgryphon

Quote: 





dangertoast said:


> I've heard that there's a significant hiss when using the Magni+Modi and the HE-400's, potentially because the headphones are low impedance, the amp is relatively powerful, and there's no gain options. Has anyone using the schiit stack with the HE-400 (or other low impedance headphones) experienced this?
> 
> As far as I know, nobody's ever complained about hiss coming from the o2/odac.


 
  Absolutely no hiss from my HE-400 and M&M. The high gain isn't bothering me either once I drop the PC volume or furbar2000+WASAPI to about 75-80%. Can probably drop it lower, but I'm comfortable with the Magni volume pot around 10-11 o'clock.


----------



## adydula

I like the ODAC and O2 amp combo that allows you to have the amp volume cranked all the way up and use the software player volume control and not loose any resolution or data.....again a great design.
   
  Alex


----------



## ostewart

adydula said:


> I like the ODAC and O2 amp combo that allows you to have the amp volume cranked all the way up and use the software player volume control and not loose any resolution or data.....again a great design.
> 
> Alex




+1 I think a lot of thought went into designing the O2 and ODAC, great design and implementation.


----------



## adydula

This little amp just keeps on giving...
   
  Hard to believe that something at this price point can be so good.....
   
  Smiling all the way to "my" bank.....
   
  Alex


----------



## DangerToast

Does either the magni or o2 appreciably change the sound stage? In particular, I'm wondering about the stage of the HE-400's.


----------



## adamlr

Quote: 





wcgryphon said:


> Absolutely no hiss from my HE-400 and M&M. The high gain isn't bothering me either once I drop the PC volume or furbar2000+WASAPI to about 75-80%. Can probably drop it lower, but I'm comfortable with the Magni volume pot around 10-11 o'clock.


 

 yea i dont get why people are nagging about the *5 gain, just drop your computers volume...


----------



## xnor

Or use the O2 with a lower gain (I bet that most would be fine with a gain of even 1x with a 2 Vrms source), that way you don't have to use digital attenuation.


----------



## adamlr

how much of a difference would it make though? i know i dont really hear one


----------



## adydula

Fyi:
   
  The majority of USB DACs only support 16 bits over USB. That means when you turn down the volume in software you’re getting less than 16 bits of resolution. At background music levels you might only be listening to 11 or 12 bit audio. But the ODAC has a 24 bit USB interface and enough dynamic range to allow guilt-free use of software volume controls.
   
  just sayin....
   
  Alex


----------



## xnor

Depends on the performance your DAC and the amount of attenuation.
   
  The basic rule is to use the least amount of gain to get the job done. You can read an entire article about it if you google "all about gain".
   
  edit: The ODAC is just under 19 ENOB (effective number of bits), the DAC1 reaches about 19.3 referenced to it's full output (above 7 volts), the fiio e10 is only 16.2 ENOB. (from the blog that shall not be named)


----------



## adamlr

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Fyi:
> 
> The majority of USB DACs only support 16 bits over USB. That means when you turn down the volume in software you’re getting less than 16 bits of resolution. At background music levels you might only be listening to 11 or 12 bit audio. But the ODAC has a 24 bit USB interface and enough dynamic range to allow guilt-free use of software volume controls.
> 
> ...


 
   
  oh, alright then, thank you for that.
   
  Quote: 





xnor said:


> Depends on the performance your DAC and the amount of attenuation.
> 
> The basic rule is to use the least amount of gain to get the job done. You can read an entire article about it if you google "all about gain".
> 
> edit: The ODAC is just under 19 ENOB (effective number of bits), the DAC1 reaches about 19.3 referenced to it's full output (above 7 volts), the fiio e10 is only 16.2 ENOB. (from the blog that shall not be named)


 
  i see. hurm.... maybe i'll get the objective pair instead, although to be fair, i really didnt hear any difference when playing around with the volume...
  "from the blog that shall not be named" - lol!


----------



## adydula

I have used some tools in the last months to actually listen from 24 bits down to 8 bits to see where my ears and hardware would start perceiving the loss of these bits....I was amazed....it was lower than 10 bits!!
   
  The HD audio guys wont like that...
   
  Alex


----------



## adamlr

Quote: 





adydula said:


> I have used some tools in the last months to actually listen from 24 bits down to 8 bits to see where my ears and hardware would start perceiving the loss of these bits....I was amazed....it was lower than 10 bits!!
> 
> The HD audio guys wont like that...
> 
> Alex


 

 yea, i saw a clip of ethan winers where he degrades the bit depth one bit at a time, starting at 24 bits. personally i could only hear a difference at around 8-9 bits, it was a good clip to watch, put things into perspective.


----------



## O8h7w

Differences in bitdepth is something that only occasionally, or at the extremely low bitdepths you have just found, makes a hearable difference.
   
  A higher bitdepth is important for small differences in level or waveform when there is a lot of sound in the music, like, say, the decay of a triangle in the midst of an outburst from an orchestra. That is not a common thing in music, nor is it easy to hear. I'm not so sure that could have been heard through any hifi system I've ever listened to, but I know I have heard it live.
   
  The more important thing is headroom. For example just as already discussed, for digital volume control, but also for when something goes wrong in the digital domain. Take a look at Defiant00's excellent explanation. One lost bit of 24 is a lot less likely to make a difference you can hear than one lost bit of 16, remember that the 8 extra are a lot less significant. This means the DAC has a slightly easier job. Upping the sample rate will do the same, this is the only justification for upsampling as far as I can see, and you might have heard upsampling can sometimes be a good thing even when with the signal already on the same chip as the DAC...
   
  Enough with the derailing. Back on topic: Applause to TMRaven for the revolutionarily short and concise review! Refreshing, to say the least.


----------



## xnor

Defiant's explanation is not practical.
  
  No 24 bit DAC achieves 24 bit performance. High end DACs maybe get close to 20, but as posted before, some 24 bit DACs do not even perform better than good 16 bit DACs.
   
  He also assumes that 25% volume corresponds to 12 dB attenuation, but on my system 25% is over 20 dB of attenuation (~3.4 bits). The system volume control percentage is not the gain.


----------



## adydula

and adaptive dacs can outperform asynchronous dacs!
   
  Alex


----------



## Ren19

If the "Objective Combo" and "The Schiit Stack" would be the same price, wich one should i get for a pair of headphones like the Q701?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





ren19 said:


> If the "Objective Combo" and "The Schiit Stack" would be the same price, wich one should i get for a pair of headphones like the Q701?


 
*tdockweiler* has reported pretty good sound with the Schiit Stack and Q 701.
  From my own experience the Objective Combo works really well with a new K 701.
   
  From the looks of things, the two are nearly identical in sound both objectively and subjectively. The problems I've read about the Schiit Stack make me lean towards the Objective Combo though.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





ren19 said:


> If the "Objective Combo" and "The Schiit Stack" would be the same price, wich one should i get for a pair of headphones like the Q701?


 

 Objective ofcourse. I doubt any amp has been tested as thoroughly as the O2.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, although the Schiit Stack has had relatively positive findings so far, I would place money on the Objective Combo because of its reputation, availability, customisability, and thorough findings/reviews/anecdotes/testimonies.


----------



## moshen

The O2 design has been tested and measured thoroughly and blind a/b puts them close enough together. So unless you like the ergonomics of the Schiit stuff much better I'd go O2/ODAC.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





moshen said:


> The O2 design has been tested and measured thoroughly and blind a/b puts them close enough together. So unless you like the ergonomics of the Schiit stuff much better I'd go O2/ODAC.


 

 IDK, but I can't let go of the feeling that its a bit vindictive, launching an O2 competitor just to make a statement. But thats just my hunch.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

but O2/ODAC is open source, seems like the designer wanted it to be known how to make a good amp
   
  schiit seems to be more secretive in keeping their designs known, patent issues maybe, with the praise that O2/ODAC is being given as a good design, its like you're all discrediting schiit's engineers, whom I think are quite brilliant themselves,


----------



## cel4145

kamijoismyhero said:


> schiit seems to be more secretive in keeping their designs known, patent issues maybe, with the praise that O2/ODAC is being given as a good design, its like you're all discrediting schiit's engineers, whom I think are quite brilliant themselves,




Patents have nothing to do with it, unless they have been stealing designs from someone else (lol). 

An electrical engineer could easily take the cover off the Schiit electronics and analyze what's inside of it. There's not likely to be any major secrets there that can't be figured out by someone with some good knowledge of audio engineering.

Regardless, proton007 has a good point. There are quite a few Internet audio manufacturers who publish extensive benchmarks of their equipment. I'm not going to speculate on their reasons, but there is no reason that Schiit couldn't do so if they wanted to. If their engineers are as good as you think that they are, they are already benchmarking their own stuff.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Objective ofcourse. I doubt any amp has been tested as thoroughly as the O2.


 
   
  And not just tested by the designer, but by others potentially with a bone to pick.  These others haven't found results that disagree with what's out there.  Also Tyll at IF to some degree.  So it is better-known, for whatever that is worth.  You can check the schematic too.
   
   
  Schiit allegedly and most probably does plenty of testing internally (all the right ones?  maybe, maybe not); they just don't think it's important or a good idea to publish all kinds of results.  Most importantly, like many other audio designers—correctly or not—they probably don't believe the measurements they take are enough to represent the sound of the products.  Part of their marketing is how they're not numbers guys pursuing the top benchmarks.  Also, not that many people are interested in see all the measurements.  Many companies post even fewer specs.  Furthermore, any specs they do publish may likely be misunderstood by a lot of people (particularly at the point where numbers become good enough, further improvements don't really mean anything).  Finally, of course, the specs would be worse than some others.  The last thing a manufacturer of vacuum tube amps and champion of minimal feedback wants to do is get in a numbers war.  It tends to be gear intended for the professional market that comes with more published testing results.  And those with the best results, of course.
   
  Personally I'd like to have more information available about everything, but I don't think they're all out there to cater to me.
   
   



kamijoismyhero said:


> but O2/ODAC is open source, seems like the designer wanted it to be known how to make a good amp
> 
> schiit seems to be more secretive in keeping their designs known, patent issues maybe, with the praise that O2/ODAC is being given as a good design, its like you're all discrediting schiit's engineers, whom I think are quite brilliant themselves,


 

   
  ODAC is *not* open source, cannot be DIY.  (party line is that chips used require NDAs and so on, which is true; some people furthermore suspect ulterior motives, money under the table, which you may or may not believe).  O2 is.
   
  It's not at all a fair comparison from the designers' point of view in terms of information available and transparency because Schiit needs to make money and stuff, keep things under wraps.  No company wants to disclose too much to the customers and competitors.  From the consumer's point of view, depends on your priorities.
   
   
   
  I think one of the most interesting differences here is that the O2/ODAC designer likes (sensitive, relatively high-end) IEMs, and of course some others.  If I understand correctly, Schiit owns or listens to or uses some planar magnetics like LCD-2 or something.  I forget.  Probably others too.
   
  So the O2 gets extremely low noise.  Magni gets high default gain and lots of power at low impedance loads.


----------



## chicolom

Any and every thread that mentions the Objective Amp or DAC will eventually leads to people arguing and citing the O2/ODAC measurements.
   
  It's like Godwin's Law, but instead of Nazis it's the measurements.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Stop brown-nosing.  There's nothing special about the additional measurements in the Objective 2's blog.  I'm sure you'll find very minimal differences between all these measurements when comparing the O2 and Magni-- and any of the more prominent differences would be below the threshold of realistic listening levels (do we all really need to know that an amp has a -116db noise floor at half volume)  I'm a very measurement first type of guy, but at the end of the day I still rather go off subjective impressions of equipment from people whom I trust rather than looking at graphs all day.
> 
> Next I expect you to say that the O2 sounds the same as 1000 dollar amps in blind a/b comparisons.


 
   
   
  The thread is about comparison between the two. The strengths of the O2 are its specs, and the measurements to prove them. The Magni, on the other hand  'sounds like the O2'.
  You're speculating that they'll both measure the same, and the differences would be small. 
   
  Maybe they are, maybe the Magni even exceeds the O2. 
   
  Point is, I cannot say for sure, because the O2 has the numbers to prove its performance, and the Magni doesn't.


----------



## compoopers

Then you're just saying the O2/ODAC are better than everything else because of the numbers. I'm not saying that $5000 amps/dacs are necessarily better than the O2/ODAC. I'm just saying that better things exist.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





mikeaj said:


> And not just tested by the designer, but by others potentially with a bone to pick.  These others haven't found results that disagree with what's out there.  Also Tyll at IF to some degree.  So it is better-known, for whatever that is worth.  You can check the schematic too.
> 
> Personally I'd like to have more information available about everything, but I don't think they're all out there to cater to me.
> 
> It's not at all a fair comparison from the designers' point of view in terms of information available and transparency because Schiit needs to make money and stuff, keep things under wraps.  No company wants to disclose too much to the customers and competitors.  From the consumer's point of view, depends on your priorities.


 
   
  I agree on most counts, and I certainly don't care about being transparent with the design. Design and performance are related, and the specs are an objective measure of how any design performs. Good specs --> good design. Thats all.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





compoopers said:


> Then you're just saying the O2/ODAC are better than everything else because of the numbers. I'm not saying that $5000 amps/dacs are necessarily better than the O2/ODAC. I'm just saying that better things exist.


 
   
  Of course better things exist, if they have the numbers to prove that. Otherwise how does one define 'better' ?


----------



## cel4145

mikeaj said:


> It's not at all a fair comparison from the designers' point of view in terms of information available and transparency because Schiit needs to make money and stuff, keep things under wraps.  No company wants to disclose too much to the customers and competitors.  From the consumer's point of view, depends on your priorities.




Audio companies often "keep things under wraps" and put out limited information to consumers to mislead them. For example, Definitive Technology does that all the time with their speakers and subwoofers. They list low end frequency responses that are not the industry standard +/- 3db frequency range, but instead where the response is already -10 to -15db down. That's why they leave it off. In order to mislead the customer. 

But if the product is good, what is the downside of being more transparent?


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





cel4145 said:


> But if the product is good, what is the downside of being more transparent?


 
   
  Exactly. A good product shouldn't have anything to fear.


----------



## miceblue

*What sample rates and bit depths does Modi support?*
 16/44 to 24/96, including 24/88.2.
   
  That's the same as the ODAC.
   
   
*How can you do this when other guys are trying to sell plastic USB key DACs for 2.5x the price?*
 Because we aren’t greedy, and our packaging is ugly.
   
  Ouch...(I'm guessing this is referring to the AudioQuest Dragonfly)


----------



## compoopers

It's a light jab at them, but I think the dragonfly is pretty nice considering how small it is. Making it that tiny is probably not simple engineering. Plus, they were first to do it so they have every right to jack up costs until someone else does it better, and cheaper.


----------



## ostewart

Quote: 





compoopers said:


> It's a light jab at them, but I think the dragonfly is pretty nice considering how small it is. Making it that tiny is probably not simple engineering. Plus, they were first to do it so they have every right to jack up costs until someone else does it better, and cheaper.


 
  stoner acoustics UD100, but thats DAC only, not amp as well


----------



## USAudio

miceblue said:


> *What sample rates and bit depths does Modi support?*
> 
> 16/44 to 24/96, including 24/88.2.
> 
> That's the same as the ODAC.


 
Except the ODAC doesn't support 88.2.


----------



## adydula

Yup it doesnt support 88.2...
   
  While the ODAC doesn’t support 24/88, it does support the audibly identical 24/44. It’s trivial to re-sample 24/88 audio to 24/44 with no artifacts as it’s a simple divide-by-two operation (and one the operating system will perform for you automatically). I know many audiophiles probably think they’re losing something, but nobody has proven they are.
   
  Alex


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah my bad, I was thinking 24/88, which the O2 still doesn't support but 24/44 sounds nearly identical, unless you truly have "golden ears".


----------



## USAudio

adydula said:


> Yup it doesnt support 88.2...



I'm detecting some sarcasm there.  Not trying to step on any toes, just a statement of fact. It's academic anyways, there isn't much 88.2 material out there.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'm happy with 16/44 because I can't tell the difference between that and other sample rates. Downsampling so-called "HD" 24/96 music sounds the same to me.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *TMRaven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Next I expect you to say that the O2 sounds the same as 1000 dollar amps in blind a/b comparisons.


 
   
  Added distortion in the mythical "1000 dollar amp[]" aside, that exactly right. If the O2 is transparent, adding $850 of parts and profit won't yield better sound because it can't.


----------



## cel4145

hamilcarbarca said:


> Added distortion in the mythical "1000 dollar amp[]" aside, that exactly right. If the O2 is transparent, adding $850 of parts and profit won't yield better sound because it can't.




Well, it could add "better sound" because perfectly flat, transparent sound is not necessarily what everyone really likes. If it was all about perfect transparency, tube amps would not be popular 

But you are right. If it's already transparent, you can't make it _more_ transparent with additional parts


----------



## adydula

US Audio....
   
  You are so correct....it was meant as slightly "funny" response....lol....in good humor...
   
  I have some SACD stuff but bought it to see for myself how much better etc this stuff is compared to good ole 2 ch 44.1/16 bits etc..
   
  Needless to say, but I will say it anyway! 
   

 "Except for the sounstage...not really any better to me"....just different depending how the SACD was recorded and mastered etc...
   
   
  Alex


----------



## TMRaven

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Added distortion in the mythical "1000 dollar amp[]" aside, that exactly right. If the O2 is transparent, adding $850 of parts and profit won't yield better sound because it can't.


 
    
   
  This is all assuming that the measurements provided for the amps are actually meaningful to music reproduction.  In this case, the measurements give us a shallow look to see if there's anything glaringly wrong with the amps, but they can't give you actual performance characteristics when fed complex music-- unless of course, your hobby is to sit at your desk and listen to two-tone sinewaves all day.  No discriminating here.


----------



## adydula

Most of the specs that the designer has listed can have a affect on "musical reproduction" .....
   
  Alex


----------



## adydula

cel4145...
   
  There are many tube amps that are not transparent.....far from it...and some I had and are now sold.
   
  Alex


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





cel4145 said:


> Well, it could add "better sound" because perfectly flat, transparent sound is not necessarily what everyone really likes. If it was all about perfect transparency, tube amps would not be popular
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.
   
  The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.
  Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."
   
  That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.
   
  Violectric says: "Discrete amplifiers (designed with transistors) are very popular in High-End audio design also for preamplifier stages. This is often marketed as an optimization measure, but the partially exorbitant extra expenses are of course to be paid by the customer. But an op-amp consists of tranistors as well...
 Moreover, its structure has the advantage of thermal coupling between its internal components."
   
  Other than output power, I don't think the Schiit stack would win the numbers game. The question is why they are so fixated on the points mentioned above..


----------



## cel4145

adydula said:


> cel4145...
> 
> There are many tube amps that are not transparent.....far from it...and some I had and are now sold.
> 
> Alex




You missed the point 



cel4145 said:


> If it was all about perfect transparency, tube amps _would not_ be popular


----------



## adydula

cel 4145...
   
  roger, over and out...mybad....
   
  Agree!!
   
  Alex....now where is that box of tubes gone off to??
   
  LOL


----------



## cel4145

adydula said:


> cel 4145...
> 
> roger, over and out...mybad....
> 
> ...




I love my Little Dot I+ tube amp. Definitely not transparent!


----------



## TheGame21x

I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.
   
  Short version: I really, really like them.


----------



## olddtfan

I say the specs don't tell the whole story its all in how it sounds to you.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.
> 
> The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.
> Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."
> ...


 
   
  I'm just speculating here, but a lot of companies tend to hide the core and focus on other stuff (Design/Looks/Feel/Experience etc), because it helps them achieve the 'reality distortion field' effect. 
  Take a look at this paper : http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/667782
  Turns out more knowledge can be a turn off for a lot of customers.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.
> 
> Short version: I really, really like them.


 

 Hey, I read the review, good work!
  But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!


----------



## MrMateoHead

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.
> 
> The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.
> Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."
> ...


 
  I think you know why different approaches are so energetically defended - money.
   
  There is not a great deal of difference, to the end user, between a $400 dollar computer and a $3,000 dollar computer. Good hardware is practically a standard these days, thanks to innovation. Of course, the $3,000 computer is the one to have for some applications, but otherwise, whatever.
   
  Audio is pretty much a commodity these days. The higher end I go, the more I realize you get less and less for your dollar. Or it could be that myths are good for business, so they persist. Most of these companies know that if standards compliance became important, they would all be in deep doo doo for marketing overpriced crap.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





mrmateohead said:


> I think you know why different approaches are so energetically defended - money.
> 
> There is not a great deal of difference, to the end user, between a $400 dollar computer and a $3,000 dollar computer. Good hardware is practically a standard these days, thanks to innovation. Of course, the $3,000 computer is the one to have for some applications, but otherwise, whatever.
> 
> Audio is pretty much a commodity these days. The higher end I go, the more I realize you get less and less for your dollar. Or it could be that myths are good for business, so they persist. Most of these companies know that if standards compliance became important, they would all be in deep doo doo for marketing overpriced crap.


 

 There's no price for exclusivity, and certainly a good way to make money.


----------



## Tequilasunriser

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Any and every thread that mentions the Objective Amp or DAC will eventually leads to people arguing and citing the O2/ODAC measurements.
> 
> It's like Godwin's Law, but instead of Nazis it's the measurements.


 
  Well, that's the whole point. The damn thing is called the *Objective *amp for a reason. Durrrr


----------



## cel4145

thegame21x said:


> I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.
> 
> Short version: I really, really like them.




Thanks for that review!

I have been going back and forth between the Modi and the ODAC, and I just ordered the ODAC this morning. You gave me more confidence in my purchase


----------



## TMRaven

It's not the ultimate point, it's just something nice to let users of the amp know that nothing is horribly wrong with it.  You'll eventually want to actually listen to your amp to see how well it performs, and not how well it performs given a single 1khz sine wave.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."
> 
> That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.


 
   
  Hey all,
   
  Man, it's getting heated in here. Can we be friends? Or am I the devil incarnate, here to lasso your wallet out of your unsuspecting pockets and reduce you to slavering devotees chanting, "schiit, schiit, schiit, more schiit" for the rest of your lives, eagerly forgoing meals and housing so you can simply purchase that next, shiny product?
   
  No wait, that's Apple. 
   
  Kidding, of course. I own a ton of Apple products, and I can't wait until their new UberRetina $3K laptop is out...no, wait, I also have a Galaxy Nexus. And PCs. Ah, well. Guess that reality distortion field only goes so far.
   
  But I did want to address a couple of things here.
   
  First_, _the statements _"overall feedback is bad," "class A results in superb performance" and "fully discrete designs are better." _We never said any of those things. Ever. Those are value judgements. We _have_ said, "we use no overall feedback designs when we can, we prefer fully discrete topologies, and we do Class A amplifiers," before, but those are not value judgements--those are statements of what we do. If other companies have a different approach to sonic nirvana, then that's totally cool. But, bottom line, we don't build ourselves up by cutting others down. It's part of our principles. www.schiit.com/about/principles
   
  Second, I understand that many of you don't like our approach of blending instrumented testing with listening tests, considering that we're, well, a little touched in the head. Or delusional. Or somehow trying to trick you. Or your friends. Or whatever. That's cool, too. I used to be exactly the same. I bought amps on the spec sheet. Then, when I started working at Sumo, I had some experiences that really shook my faith in the measurements. Now, that's not to say the differences in amps and other components are as big as some people make them out to be. That's why we always tell people to put their money in transducers first, then amps and such if they need them later. So, just nod at us old nutters and check out some other great products if our approach doesn't work for you. 
   
  Third, high gain on the Magni. Yep. It's not going to be for everyone, and maybe it does reflect our love of planar headphones. We'll temper our language regarding "great for everything including IEMs." Though it is quiet enough for IEMs, I understand that the gain might be problematic if you don't want to use software volume control. That said, Modi is a real 24-bit USB receiver and DAC, so you can definitely run 24 bits in.
   
  Fourth, I notice here that someone had a bum Magni. Sorry about that! If you'd wanted another Magni, we would have offered a return/exchange, where we issue a call tag and send a new product as soon as the return is shipped back to us. One thing most people seem to agree on is that our customer service is very good.
   
  Fifth, heck, I forgot what I was talking about. Excuse this novel. I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread...
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## jimmers

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Hey, I read the review, good work!
> But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!


 
  I did O2 DIY, already had batteries (not used) and suitable wallwart, so it cost me less than $40 including case excluding postage. No probs, just had to measure the resistors 'cos they were too small for me to read the colour code 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I will be putting my ODAC in the same case when I have the time/energy.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Hiya, thanks for chiming-in and providing some insight/clarifications!
   
  I've been kind of curious about this (anyone can answer this), what exactly causes the Magni to get warm? From my experiences, Schiit's products tend to get really warm, and people have reported that the Magni does get kind of warm. The Objective 2, gets a teeny bit warm but not to the same "warmth" as what I imagine the Magni does.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

It's simply the quiescent current in the output stage--in the case of Magni, about 30mA--hardly enough to really get warm. P= IV, where I is .03 and V is 30V--so it dissipates about 2W at idle from 2 channels. I forgot the actual FLIR numbers, but it runs something like 27C in a 20C room.
   
  Asgard runs 260mA, for example--but that's because it's a very inefficient Class-A design. That dissipates almost 20W at idle, counting regulation. But the reality is, the outputs on Asgard run much cooler than many outputs run internally on a heatsink--you simply feel the heat because the whole chassis is a heatsink. Asgard runs about 42C in a 20C room. (Hey, we never said Class A was efficient...)


----------



## TMRaven

Probably the same thing that causes class A amps to get warm.  A lot of people swear by them for sound, but one of their disadvantages is that they're not the most efficient amps, in other words some of the power gets wasted in the form of heat.  Magni is class A/B, meaning it'll have some of the characteristics of class A.
   
  And yes, the whole chassis is a heat sink.  It's the 'aluminum iMac effect'.  
  You wouldn't believe how many new aluminum iMac owners would post in the forums thinking that their computers were overheating because the aluminum shell was doing its job.


----------



## TheGame21x

Quote: 





proton007 said:


> Hey, I read the review, good work!
> But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!


 
   
  Thanks for the feedback, and yes, that's a good idea. Will add it!
   
  Quote: 





cel4145 said:


> Thanks for that review!
> 
> I have been going back and forth between the Modi and the ODAC, and I just ordered the ODAC this morning. You gave me more confidence in my purchase


 
   
  Thanks! Glad I could help!


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Probably the same thing that causes class A amps to get warm.  A lot of people swear by them for sound, but one of their disadvantages is that they're not the most efficient amps, in other words some of the power gets wasted in the form of heat.  Magni is class A/B, meaning it'll have some of the characteristics of class A.
> 
> And yes, the whole chassis is a heat sink.  It's the 'aluminum iMac effect'.
> You wouldn't believe how many new aluminum iMac owners would post in the forums thinking that their computers were overheating because the aluminum shell was doing its job.


 
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> It's simply the quiescent current in the output stage--in the case of Magni, about 30mA--hardly enough to really get warm. P= IV, where I is .03 and V is 30V--so it dissipates about 2W at idle from 2 channels. I forgot the actual FLIR numbers, but it runs something like 27C in a 20C room.
> 
> Asgard runs 260mA, for example--but that's because it's a very inefficient Class-A design. That dissipates almost 20W at idle, counting regulation. But the reality is, the outputs on Asgard run much cooler than many outputs run internally on a heatsink--you simply feel the heat because the whole chassis is a heatsink. Asgard runs about 42C in a 20C room. (Hey, we never said Class A was efficient...)


 
   
  Ah, thank you for the answers!
   
  I'm still new to amps so I'll have to read-up on the different classes of amplifiers. I only know what's taught in basic electrical engineering/bioengineering circuit courses (as in op-amps, what they do, negative feedback is good, how to solve mathematical problems with analog circuits, etc.). What "class" of amplifier is the Objective 2 considered if anyone knows?
   
  And yes I totally forgot that the steel chassis is a heatsink....I can totally vouch for the "overheating" Mac effect. I have the original full-aluminum unibody MacBook from 2008 (before they made the Pro version) and watching any YouTube video causes the processor/graphics card area to heat-up to 80+˙C, making the fans spin at maximum speed, and the whole chassis becomes uncomfortable to put on a lap, w00t!.


----------



## peter123

Quote: 





tmraven said:


>





> You'll eventually want to actually listen to your amp to see how well it performs, and not how well it performs given a single 1khz sine wave.


 
   
  +1, couldn't agree more!


----------



## adydula

One thing I keep thinking about when comparing stuff...is its we often compare apples and oranges....the O2 amp has real specific design points that the designer has met and has been confirmed etc...good, bad or indifferent.
   
  One of the design points was portability and hence "batteries"....even if we think its not really portable due to its size or weight or you cant get it into your shirt pocket....
   
  The Schiit Magni is not a portable amp, and has no batteries etc..by design.
   
  That said I think both are good products in their own right...and yes listening to the stuff in your house with your cans is the ultimate test.
   
  If your happy great, if not well...
   
  But having an amp that was designed to be transparent and meet specs that impact "my" audio nirvana is important to me...
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## bobbmd

TO ALL: have m/m the sound reproduction is un believeable and all i am listening to is MOG at 320kbps now sounds better than any of cd's even dvd-a's and sacds
  even with my 30+yo beyerdynamics DT 990's!!
  BUT how do you get the magni to sit flat with pyst rca connections and power cord attached in back and headphone plugged in the front its unequal unbalanced WONT SIT FLAT AT ALL either on top of the modi or on a desk top
  AND  in your picture how can you have the modi on TOP of the magni the magni generates heat??
  the other pictures on schiit web site and other forums /reviews have to be bogus/computer generated
  would appreciate any suggestion on how to get magni to sit FLAT
  bobbmd


----------



## olddtfan

Quote: 





bobbmd said:


> TO ALL: have m/m the sound reproduction is un believeable and all i am listening to is MOG at 320kbps now sounds better than any of cd's even dvd-a's and sacds
> even with my 30+yo beyerdynamics DT 990's!!
> BUT how do you get the magni to sit flat with pyst rca connections and power cord attached in back and headphone plugged in the front its unequal unbalanced WONT SIT FLAT AT ALL either on top of the modi or on a desk top
> AND  in your picture how can you have the modi on TOP of the magni the magni generates heat??
> ...


 
  A rubberband.


----------



## bobbmd

dont be an ass-it wont sit flat period


----------



## TheGame21x

Quote: 





bobbmd said:


> dont be an ass-it wont sit flat period


 
  I'm pretty sure he was serious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  put a rubber band on the RCA cables connecting the Magni and Modi and they should sit flat. Worked for me.


----------



## bobbmd

i feel so bad i thought he was being smart and thought he meant to put the bands around the BODIES of the m/m which i did and it worked but ruined the esthetics of the m/m, then someelse pointed me to difiants web site and then i saw what he meant and it does WORK
  jason s should have included rubber bands and instructions with the pysts! thanks bobbmd


----------



## miceblue

Well speaking of keeping the two units together, does anyone have any suggestions for the O/O (O_O looks better) stack? Right now I have the JDS Labs O2 under the ODAC and the ODAC tends to slide around while I'm adjusting the volume on the O2 and/or switching out headphones.
   

  *no I don't have a short 3.5mm interconnect cable, and yes that's the RCA version of the ODAC*


----------



## TheGame21x

You could always buy some double-sided tape or adhesive velcro.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> You could always buy some double-sided tape or adhesive velcro.


 
  Ah the Velcro could work out. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## trueserve

I use thick Velcro, specifically something like this http://www.velcro.com/Products/Ties-and-Straps/Ties/One-Wrap-Tie-Rolls.aspx

 I have a piece between the units, and a wrap around them. It's thick enough to basically be feet; keeps the O2 off the table and the ODAC from sliding on the O2. It can also be taken apart and the units separated without leaving any trace since it isn't adhesive.
   
  You can see it in the background here (with a velcro-wrapped cable on top so I can carry it around):


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





trueserve said:


> I use thick Velcro, specifically something like this http://www.velcro.com/Products/Ties-and-Straps/Ties/One-Wrap-Tie-Rolls.aspx
> 
> I have a piece between the units, and a wrap around them. It's thick enough to basically be feet; keeps the O2 off the table and the ODAC from sliding on the O2. It can also be taken apart and the units separated without leaving any trace since it isn't adhesive.
> 
> You can see it in the background here (with a velcro-wrapped cable on top so I can carry it around):


 
  Woah that's pretty clever. I might give that a try instead!


----------



## cel4145

miceblue said:


> Woah that's pretty clever. I might give that a try instead!




Check out the Velcro One Wrap Straps that have the hole at the end to run the strap through:

http://www.amazon.com/Velcro-Wrap-Strap-2-Inches-Pack/dp/B0057564NK/

Those are a little long at 15", but you can trip then end down.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> It's simply the quiescent current in the output stage--in the case of Magni, about 30mA--hardly enough to really get warm. P= IV, where I is .03 and V is 30V--so it dissipates about 2W at idle from 2 channels. I forgot the actual FLIR numbers, but it runs something like 27C in a 20C room.


 
   
  Don't forget the regulators. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  After a 30 minute warmup (and measuring immediately after removing the top cover), the regulator cases were running around 140F (60C) and the output devices around 150F (66C). That's enough to make the top cover feel warm, but certainly not hot.
   
  Top cover with Magni off was 72F. After idling for about 30 minutes, it rose to about 84F. Warm to the touch, but not even body temperature. So no reason for anybody to fret.
   
  Oh yeah, while you're here, my Magni has a problem. Whenever I turn the knob all the way to the left, I get no sound. What's up with that? Can I get a new one? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Have a great weekend, Jason!
   
  se


----------



## olddtfan

Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> I'm pretty sure he was serious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I should have said around the cables sorry.


----------



## adydula

Steve,
   
  Just flip it upside down...it will fix the problem....
   
  Alex


----------



## Steve Eddy

Tried that. Still get no sound when the knob's turned all the way to the left.
   
  se


----------



## TMRaven

Make sure that when it's turned upside down that the power switch in the back is down instead of up.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Oh yeah, while you're here, my Magni has a problem. Whenever I turn the knob all the way to the left, I get no sound. What's up with that? Can I get a new one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I've heard of that problem. About 99.8% of the Magnis have it, unfortunately. I've heard it's a relatively common problem with other amps.
   
  Despite that, we'll put our entire engineering team on it and see if we can develop a fix. I believe Dave (our DSP and microcontroller wizard) could probably work up a PIC-based control system that would, say, allow you to get full volume at the touch of a button even with the pot fully to the left. Of course, that may not be the best solution, unless you want a special "destroy my headphones" function.
   
  (Actually, the first preamp I designed for Sumo had the pot wired backwards on the prototype PCBs. So, in that case, you'd have plenty of output at full left, especially with 20dB gain and +/-35V rails. Hello, voice coils.)


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yeah, I've heard of that problem. About 99.8% of the Magnis have it, unfortunately. I've heard it's a relatively common problem with other amps.
> 
> Despite that, we'll put our entire engineering team on it and see if we can develop a fix. I believe Dave (our DSP and microcontroller wizard) could probably work up a PIC-based control system that would, say, allow you to get full volume at the touch of a button even with the pot fully to the left. Of course, that may not be the best solution, unless you want a special "destroy my headphones" function.


 
   
  Not to worry. I just took it out to the shop and monkeyed around with it for a bit. Got it working perfect now. 
   

   
   
  Quote: 





> (Actually, the first preamp I designed for Sumo had the pot wired backwards on the prototype PCBs. So, in that case, you'd have plenty of output at full left, especially with 20dB gain and +/-35V rails. Hello, voice coils.)


 
   
  Did something similar to that myself once. Was picking bits of wire and polypropylene out of my teeth for a week. Oops. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## Jason Stoddard

I love it! The alternate-universe Magni...


----------



## Steve Eddy

I'll send it on down. Wait'll you experience the alternate reality it produces.
   

   
  se


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Doesn't that happen with most amplifiers? Maybe not...my lack of experience is getting to me isn't it? XD
  I always thought the volume knob is supposed to go from volume 0 to volume max.


----------



## wes008

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yeah, I've heard of that problem. About 99.8% of the Magnis have it, unfortunately. I've heard it's a relatively common problem with other amps.
> 
> Despite that, we'll put our entire engineering team on it and see if we can develop a fix. I believe Dave (our DSP and microcontroller wizard) could probably work up a PIC-based control system that would, say, allow you to get full volume at the touch of a button even with the pot fully to the left. Of course, that may not be the best solution, unless you want a special "destroy my headphones" function.
> 
> (Actually, the first preamp I designed for Sumo had the pot wired backwards on the prototype PCBs. So, in that case, you'd have plenty of output at full left, especially with 20dB gain and +/-35V rails. Hello, voice coils.)


 
  Jason, I am proud to be your customer


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> I'll send it on down. Wait'll you experience the alternate reality it produces.
> 
> 
> 
> se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Doesn't that happen with most amplifiers? Maybe not...my lack of experience is getting to me isn't it? XD
> I always thought the volume knob is supposed to go from volume 0 to volume max.


 

  Was only having a little fun is all.
   
  se


----------



## adydula

You see Steve...what you have started.....there is always someone that will take the bait....I actually rewired my volume pot with heavier gauge wire and the volume is back to normal....wonder if that will make the specs and better now between the ground and center tap?
   
  Alex


----------



## Mheat122134

Guess I'll just get the Schiit since it's cheaper


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





adydula said:


> You see Steve...what you have started.....there is always someone that will take the bait....I actually rewired my volume pot with heavier gauge wire and the volume is back to normal....wonder if that will make the specs and better now between the ground and center tap?


 
   
  Huh? What? What'd I say? Oh, look! An eagle! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





mheat122134 said:


> Guess I'll just get the Schiit since it's cheaper


 
   
  Cheaper? No no, "less expensive." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## miceblue

I really do have to appreciate how nice the Schiit Stack looks next to the O_O combo. The Schiit Stack has that kind of alluring Apple-look, whereas the O_O combo has a more conservative look with an ugly cable mess in the front.
  Mac vs PC anyone?

  Just kidding.


----------



## jseaber

Gotta hand it to Schiit, these boxes look great!
   
  One thing bothers me about the OP's [awesome] review: the O2 and Standalone ODAC are not meant to be stacked, as they're a cabling disaster this way. The real O2+ODAC combo has a far more orderly appearance since it's assembled in a single box. I've only skimmed through these 18 pages--hope this hasn't already been pointed this out.
   
   
  Quote: 





miceblue said:


> I really do have to appreciate how nice the Schiit Stack looks next to the O_O combo. The Schiit Stack has that kind of alluring Apple-look, whereas the O_O combo has a more conservative look with an ugly cable mess in the front.
> Mac vs PC anyone?
> 
> Just kidding.


----------



## TMRaven

Stacked or not, you still get a mess of cables in the front.  Notice that my ODAC is turned backwards-- I'm not a complete masochist.  Arguing over camera angle bias would have been a better approach though, as I cleverly hid the cables behind the Schiit stack and not so for the Objective combo.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





jseaber said:


> Gotta hand it to Schiit, these boxes look great!
> 
> One thing bothers me about the OP's [awesome] review: the O2 and Standalone ODAC are not meant to be stacked, as they're a cabling disaster this way. The real O2+ODAC combo has a far more orderly appearance since it's assembled in a single box. I've only skimmed through these 18 pages--hope this hasn't already been pointed this out.


 
   
  Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Stacked or not, you still get a mess of cables in the front.


 
   
   
  Sounds like someone should design a desktop version of the O2, with just the headphone jack on the front and the rest of the cables on the back.  They could even call it the "Objective Desktop Amp" or something...
   
  Seriously though, does *JDSlabs *have any updates on what's up with _that guy_ and whether he's made any more *progress on the ODA*?


----------



## cerealkillr

I don't believe the Magni has more power than the O2.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





cerealkillr said:


> I don't believe the Magni has more power than the O2.


 
   
  It could very well have more power, since it has higher power supply voltage, and the NJM4556 op amps in the O2 also limit the maximum output current. However, if you do not use a Hifiman HE-6, then the O2 likely has enough power anyway.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *chicolom* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Seriously though, does *JDSlabs *have any updates on what's up with _that guy_ and whether he's made any more *progress on the ODA*?


 
   
  There seem to be no updates, the designer was not active on his blog for almost half a year, and is apparently very busy and has no time for the O2/ODAC/ODA. At the moment, it is probably better to get the O2 with a custom DIY enclosure if you want a more "desktop friendly" form factor, than to wait for the ODA, which may be released only after a long time, or perhaps not at all.


----------



## xnor

Regarding power: most headphones only need a fraction of a single milliwatt to reach 85 dB SPL.
   
  In case of the DT990-600 ohm thats less than 0.3 V.


----------



## adydula

I dont care how it looks...its how it sounds.....looks are important to some extent...but the sonics are way more important....
   
  I did buy a uncased ODAC and installed it in a box that matches the O2 case...and with the rubber feet mates nicely...I will post pix later from home...
   
  I also added RCA jacks to it as well so I can use it in my 2 ch setupif desired...
   
  Dont hold your breath for the ODA....you can DIY one that has most of what it will/would have had....which I did.
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## cel4145

adydula said:


> I dont care how it looks...its how it sounds.....looks are important to some extent...but the sonics are way more important....
> 
> I did buy a uncased ODAC and installed it in a box that matches the O2 case...and with the rubber feet mates nicely...I will post pix later from home...
> 
> ...




In the spirit of open source which is attributed to this project, maybe it's time to see if the designer will release any schematics he has for a prototype and let the community--if there is anyone willing--finish up the design from here. Not to mention there are few vendors globally making money off the O2 and ODAC. It would seem in their interest to come together and promote such an effort.


----------



## tdockweiler

So...does anyone actually THINK they hear a difference between the O2 and Magni?
   
  Does anyone with both prefer one over the other and not due to features and specifications on paper?
   
  Wondering if the O2 is worth bothering with if I have the Magni.
   
  My guess is that I will find it to be exactly the same or better.
   
  Has anyone tried the Q701 with both?
   
  It's also interesting that both are labeled as "cold and analytical" or bright. Bright? If it's really transparent, is that possible? Must be only bright sounding due to a bad recording..
   
  Strange, I no longer find the Magni bright at all. Even with my Q701.
   
  I want a Magni that's about 2% warmer sounding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So about 99.999% transparent
   
  EQ is too painful. Don't make me do it..
   
  Oh yeah.. I can also make my Magni very warm or thin and harsh. Just need to find the correct track 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah, it's that accurate I guess and won't change the recording. Not that I can tell.
  On some tracks you can get bloated bass on the Magni too. Amazing how many tracks have such bloated bass IN the recording. 
   
  Sorry..just been trying to figure this Magni out. It reminds of a lot of my Micro Amp.


----------



## cel4145

tdockweiler said:


> I want a Magni that's about 2% warmer sounding
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sounds like you might need a tube amp as an alternative to the Magni


----------



## trueserve

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> I really do have to appreciate how nice the Schiit Stack looks next to the O_O combo. The Schiit Stack has that kind of alluring Apple-look, whereas the O_O combo has a more conservative look with an ugly cable mess in the front.
> Mac vs PC anyone?
> Just kidding.


 
   
  Really?
   
  I think the Stack is kind-of meh... farther away it looks pretty nice, but the LEDs are very bright. Up close, it's obvious that the chassis is just cheap painted steel. I have a JDS alu front panel and a blank alu front panel for the O2 - the JDS one has some poor text but the blank one looks nice compared to the Stack, IMO.
   
  All opinion, of course.
   
  Quote: 





> Seriously though, does *JDSlabs* have any updates on what's up with _that guy_ and whether he's made any more *progress on the ODA*?


 
   
  MIA for a few months. "Extended time away." JDS blogged 4 months ago (almost exactly) that they don't know.


----------



## proton007

Quote: 





cel4145 said:


> In the spirit of open source which is attributed to this project, maybe it's time to see if the designer will release any schematics he has for a prototype and let the community--if there is anyone willing--finish up the design from here. Not to mention there are few vendors globally making money off the O2 and ODAC. It would seem in their interest to come together and promote such an effort.


 

 Not sure if anyone's mentioned it here, but wouldn't it help to keep the power supply transformers away from the audio equipment? EMI issues and all? Op-Amps have a certain amount of rejection, but why take a chance?


----------



## adydula

Lots of head amps have ac transformers inside of the box, some have external pwr supplies etc...
   
  I think the ODA would have an external AC Adapter....
   
  Alex


----------



## Ren19

I have a question slightly out of subject.
   
  I will buy a O2+ODac (all-in-one) and I am wondering how i could plug it to my media player (WD TV Live Hub). The only place digital audio comes out on the media player is from the optical output.
   
  Thanks.
   
  EDIT: Also, is there a USB input on the "All-in-one" O2+ODac, i have looked at pictures and it just looks like a O2, how can it go through the Dac if there is no USB?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





ren19 said:


> I have a question slightly out of subject.
> 
> I will buy a O2+ODac (all-in-one) and I am wondering how i could plug it to my media player (WD TV Live Hub). The only place digital audio comes out on the media player is from the optical output.
> 
> ...


 
  I don't know anything about optical out stuff, yet.
   
  As for USB, there's a mini-USB input in the back of the O2+ODAC.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





ren19 said:


> I have a question slightly out of subject.
> 
> I will buy a O2+ODac (all-in-one) and I am wondering how i could plug it to my media player (WD TV Live Hub). The only place digital audio comes out on the media player is from the optical output.
> 
> ...


 
   
  As MiceBlue points out, the USB input jack is on the back panel of the ODAC+O2 combo.
   
  Since that USB port is the ODAC's only input, you'll need an S/PDIF to USB converter if you want to connect a WDTV box to it. I don't know anything about these.


----------



## Akha

So as the current owner of an O2 with no ODAC, would I be right to say getting a Magni would be a waste of time? I was wondering how mixing and matching would work. I don't have a standalone DAC. It's simply awkward to have my E17 on the floor in a mess of cables the way it is now. The modi does seem tempting for the price.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





akha said:


> So as the current owner of an O2 with no ODAC, would I be right to say getting a Magni would be a waste of time? I was wondering how mixing and matching would work. I don't have a standalone DAC. It's simply awkward to have my E17 on the floor in a mess of cables the way it is now. The modi does seem tempting for the price.


 
   
  Unless the Magni has some feature you find lacking on the O2, you're simply buying another amp.
   
  It's possible to mount an ODAC, with some circuit mods, in the same case with a standard O2. The Schiit Modi and Magni have nicely matched if not integrated cases. But, electrically and sonically, mixing and matching will work just fine.


----------



## adydula

If you have an O2 which is an amp getting the Magni which is another amp.....is that a waste of your time? Only you can answer that.
   
  As far as getting the Magni, it most likely will not perform sonically and better than the O2 you already have.
   
  That said many of us have several amps for various reasons.
   
  Alex


----------



## xnor

I'd say get the Magni if you have cans with extremely low sensitivity and/or have a very weak source. Otherwise, O2 > Magni.


----------



## BearusRex

_*Clap clap* _
   
  Love this review. But I still got the O2+ODAC (mostly because I live in Europe). The Magni+Modi is something for the future perhaps - if they ever will be available with a 230V wall wart.


----------



## DangerToast

Just got my little magni in the mail! 
   
  For those of you who are perusing this thread to determine whether the magni is a little too much for your sensitive cans, you can lay your fears to rest. I'm using it with my HE-400s and my ATH M50S, both fairly efficient headphones, and you won't have a problem. With both of these pairs, I sit comfortably at around 9 or 10 o'clock with the computer at 100% volume (I'm using a xonar DX as my DAC). I don't notice any substantial channel imbalance above 7:30, and even below that, you have to really strain to notice it. When the pot is all the way down, I don't hear a thing.
   
  It also sounds great! Crystal clear with a nice improvement in instrument separation and a nice, round stage. Can't speak for the O2/ODAC, but HE-400/ATH M50 owners can't go wrong with the magni.
   
  If anyone wants I can give more detailed impressions after I listen some more.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *DangerToast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> With both of these pairs, I sit comfortably at around 9 or 10 o'clock with the computer at 100% volume (I'm using a xonar DX as my DAC).


 
  But that's exactly the problem. Usable volume control range should be from 10 to 2 o'clock, not from 7:30 to 10.


----------



## DangerToast

Quote: 





xnor said:


> But that's exactly the problem. Usable volume control range should be from 10 to 2 o'clock, not from 7:30 to 10.


 
  Although it's a smaller range than normal, I'm just saying the magni's pot doesn't render it useless with sensitive headphones. I feel like I have a full range of volume at my disposal. The knob is decently weighty for such a little thing, so I don't sit there trying to get the volume just right either. 
   
  Would I like to have a pot that goes from 10 to 2? Sure! But I don't think most people will have a problem. And if I turn the volume down 10% on the computer, I get up to about 11 or 12 without any noticeable quality deficit.
   
  More importantly, I like the the way it sounds, for both quiet and loud listening.


----------



## BrokeStudent

Quote: 





xnor said:


> But that's exactly the problem. Usable volume control range should be from 10 to 2 o'clock, not from 7:30 to 10.


 
  With how I equalize my HE-400s the Magni gives me a nice 10-2 control. Perfect!


----------



## TMRaven

Quote: 





xnor said:


> But that's exactly the problem. Usable volume control range should be from 10 to 2 o'clock, not from 7:30 to 10.


 
   
  Is there any problem with the Magni not being like that?  I've had plenty of play and fine adjustment on my Magni, even when it's usually around 9 o'clock.  On the most dynamic of my songs, it can get up to 11 or so.
   
  Honestly I've run into 0 issues with volume control on the Magni so far.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





brokestudent said:


> With how I equalize my HE-400s the Magni gives me a nice 10-2 control. Perfect!


 
  I'd be really interested in that eq curve, ugh.
   
  Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Is there any problem with the Magni not being like that?


 
  Nope, no problem with the Magni.


----------



## TMRaven

It'd have to be something like a 6db reduction across nearly the entire spectrum to allow for a sub-bass boost or along those lines.


----------



## Bananaheadlin

The Modi does look a lot better than the ODAC in my opinion. Does anyone else have any comparisons of the two sonically?


----------



## adydula

Looks are one thing....performance is another....
   
  That said, I honestly do not think that they would be that much different.
   
  Alex
   
  NOTE: For all those that are really concerned about how different DACS might "sound" take a look at this thread on this site....cant wait for the results in late Feb:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/648501/blind-test-6-dacs-compared


----------



## Bananaheadlin

adydula said:


> Looks are one thing....performance is another....
> 
> That said, I honestly do not think that they would be that much different.
> 
> ...




I just read the whole thread; thanks for the link. Very interesting topic. Can't wait until Feb 28 too.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





adydula said:


> So the guys is gone....That makes it much better.....
> 
> What no measurements??
> 
> ...


 
   
  .. and that's why I am about to order the *O2 and ODAC *as two separates for the modularity's sake.
   
  Alex, thanks for Your professional opinions and comments. The _headphones _world needs more of them.
   
  JJ


----------



## adydula

JJ.....the truth is what counts....god knows there is so much BS out there....its hard to smell straight !!
   
  LOL
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## novacav

Dat Schiit stack. Want! Tempted to upgrade my Fiio e9 to the Magni. I also have an HRT  Music Streamer II but I'm not convinced the Modi would be that much better.


----------



## RustA

Quote: 





adydula said:


> I dont care how it looks...its how it sounds.....looks are important to some extent...but the sonics are way more important....
> 
> I did buy a uncased ODAC and installed it in a box that matches the O2 case...and with the rubber feet mates nicely...I will post pix later from home...
> 
> ...


 
   
  I've recently got a fully-desktop version of O2/ODAC combo from Mayflower Electronics, with RCA outputs and 1/4 headphone out and stuff... It's incredibly flexible and good-looking (see my profile for images), with even better sound since you don't have to use any adaptors. If anybody interested in getting close to what ODA may offer, I gladly recommend that seller. Really good purchase with many options for customising the gain etc.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





rusta said:


> I've recently got a fully-desktop version of O2/ODAC combo from Mayflower Electronics, with RCA outputs and 1/4 headphone out and stuff... It's incredibly flexible and good-looking (see my profile for images), with even better sound since you don't have to use any adaptors. If anybody interested in getting close to what ODA may offer, I gladly recommend that seller. Really good purchase with many options for customising the gain etc.


 
   
  Very interesting post. So there are at least three well-known manufacuturers selling the O2/ODAC or O2 & ODAC combos.
  What interests me is the 1/4" headphone out for my DT 880 (250 Ohm) cans.
   
  By the way, what is difference between the _longer _version vs. regular (shorter) version of ODAC from JDS Labs? - Does the _longer _version have the RCA outputs?
   
  I wonder why JDS Labs does not offer the 1/4" headphone jacks on the O2 amp???
   
  Thanx.


----------



## RustA

Quote: 





jakejack_2008 said:


> Very interesting post. So there are at least three well-known manufacuturers selling the O2/ODAC or O2 & ODAC combos.
> What interests me is the 1/4" headphone out for my DT 880 (250 Ohm) cans.
> 
> By the way, what is difference between the _longer _version vs. regular (shorter) version of ODAC from JDS Labs? - Does the _longer _version have the RCA outputs?
> ...


 
   
  Not sure about ODAC itself since I was always interested in O2/ODAC units and have no experience with JDS labs... However, if you have a look at the Mayflower's website, you can find yourself what the seller offers... I would suggest to even contact him personally since he can provide you with many possible upgrades. I have heard good things about JDS as well so maybe you can contact them as well to get your answer(s).
   
  I personally wanted to have a fully-desktop combo with RCA outputs from ODAC, 1/4 headphone out and still have an option to possibly compare different DACs through 1/8 input. Also, I wanted to use different gain settings and he helped me to achieve that as well. I've got several minor upgrades in addition so now I do not need ODA at all, honestly.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *JakeJack_2008* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> What interests me is the 1/4" headphone out for my DT 880 (250 Ohm) cans.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, JDS' ODAC with RCA jacks comes in the bigger case.
   
  The O2 was designed (at least in part) to be a simple, inexpensive project for electronic hobbyists. One of the trade-offs between functionality and price is the lack of room on the O2's circuit board for a 1/4" jack. The O2's designer discusses this on his blog along with instructions for the mods needed for the bigger jack. But, linking to it from this forum is against the rules.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Yes, JDS' ODAC with RCA jacks comes in the bigger case.
> 
> The O2 was designed (at least in part) to be a simple, inexpensive project for electronic hobbyists. One of the trade-offs between functionality and price is the lack of room on the O2's circuit board for a 1/4" jack. The O2's designer discusses this on his blog along with instructions for the mods needed for the bigger jack. But, linking to it from this forum is against the rules.


 
   
  Thank You very much for Your explanations. So, the O2 design does not 'prohibit' the 1/4" circuitry.
  I'm sure that the 1/4" jack does not 'outstretch' the O2 capabilities and does not  affect _negatively _the sound quality of the O2.
   
  P.S.
  I'm not a DIY'er nor and an engineer so I don't understand the (highly) technical stuff
  pertaining amps, dacs, ...


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





rusta said:


> Not sure about ODAC itself since I was always interested in O2/ODAC units and have no experience with JDS labs... However, if you have a look at the Mayflower's website, you can find yourself what the seller offers... I would suggest to even contact him personally since he can provide you with many possible upgrades. I have heard good things about JDS as well so maybe you can contact them as well to get your answer(s).
> 
> I personally wanted to have a fully-desktop combo with RCA outputs from ODAC, 1/4 headphone out and still have an option to possibly compare different DACs through 1/8 input. Also, I wanted to use different gain settings and he helped me to achieve that as well. I've got several minor upgrades in addition so now I do not need ODA at all, honestly.


 
  Thank You very much. I am going for the trasportable - portable version with the 1/4" jack.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *JakeJack_2008* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Thank You very much for Your explanations. So, the O2 design does not 'prohibit' the 1/4" circuitry.
> I'm sure that the 1/4" jack does not 'outstretch' the O2 capabilities and does not  affect _negatively _the sound quality of the O2.
> ...


 
   
  It's merely a matter of a lack space on the edge of the standard circuit board where the connectors live. I don't recall any comment from the O2's designer about any other issue -- but I might simply misremember.


----------



## jseaber

Quote: 





jakejack_2008 said:


> Very interesting post. So there are at least three well-known manufacuturers selling the O2/ODAC or O2 & ODAC combos.
> What interests me is the 1/4" headphone out for my DT 880 (250 Ohm) cans.
> 
> By the way, what is difference between the _longer _version vs. regular (shorter) version of ODAC from JDS Labs? - Does the _longer _version have the RCA outputs?
> ...


 
   
  Check the pictures and you'll see our logo on MayFlower's endplates (we supply Tyler). There's no room in the standard O2 case for 1/4in jacks, so you have to hand wire the jack in a larger case. While we have the capability, 1/4in jacks on the Objective2 are undesirable:

 Larger case looks awkward with 1/4" jack placed out of alignment from other jacks
 Higher assembly cost for hand wiring
 No performance benefit
   
   
  We carry a $1.99 adapter instead--performance is identical:
   

   
  ODAC variants are pictured and described on their item page:
   
*Standard Output* - Single 3.5mm output jack, as pictured. Silver or black endplates. 49mm case length for orders after July 27.

*RCA Output* - RCA output jacks at rear, 3.5mm output and USB jack at front. Black endplates. 95mm case length. Note: The ODAC supports only 1 output; do not use 3.5mm and RCA jacks simultaneously.


----------



## RustA

Quote: 





jseaber said:


> Check the pictures and you'll see our logo on MayFlower's endplates (we supply Tyler). There's no room in the standard O2 case for 1/4in jacks, so you have to hand wire the jack in a larger case. While we have the capability, 1/4in jacks on the Objective2 are undesirable:
> 
> Larger case looks awkward with 1/4" jack placed out of alignment from other jacks
> Higher assembly cost for hand wiring
> ...


 
   
  I've tried this and a lot of other adaptors... To be honest, I prefered Sennheiser's and Epiphany Acoustics' ones sonically over the rest (Sennheiser's being a bit muffled and Epiphany Acoustics' being a bit emphasised in treble but both VERY GOOD). I would very much like to say that all the adaptors sounded the same (in other words, that they do not affect the signal at al). However, this is not the case in my evidence. Unfortunately.
   
  I now have two O2/ODAC combo units, one with 1/4 out and another with 1/8 out... I do not regret purchasing the fully-desktop version at all.
   
  Also, have a look:
   

   
  Do you think it looks bad? I love it! 
   
  By the way, I would like to thank you for all the great job and supplying you do!


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





rusta said:


> I would very much like to say that all the adaptors sounded the same (in other words, that they do not affect the signal at al). However, this is not the case in my evidence. Unfortunately.


 
  I guess you meant 'my experience'.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

jseaber said:


> Check the pictures and you'll see our logo on MayFlower's endplates (we supply Tyler). There's no room in the standard O2 case for 1/4in jacks, so you have to hand wire the jack in a larger case. While we have the capability, 1/4in jacks on the Objective2 are undesirable:
> 
> Larger case looks awkward with 1/4" jack placed out of alignment from other jacks
> Higher assembly cost for hand wiring
> ...



 
 Thank You very much for Your expert explanations. Now, I am almost sure that I'll go with the 1/8" jack and order the O2 and the ODAC from You (JDS Labs).


----------



## Battou62

Quote: 





rusta said:


>


 
  Madre de Dios....


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





battou62 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  There's that....then there's Project H:
  Quote: 





akiroz said:


> Thought I might share some results of the community project I've been working on for the past half-a-year
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  ^ not available to us mortals unfortunately....


----------



## Battou62

Good lord, that thread is already 3700+ pages long. Jelly level = Maximum. I would love to have my O2 combo in an enclosure like that.


----------



## Makavelian

I just bought a pair of Pro 900's off Ebay and was wondering if the Magni+Modi would be a good match for them. It seems as if they would, as I have read that a bright to neutral amp works well with the Pro 900's and from what iv'e read so far that is the case with this Amp+DAC combo.


----------



## Bananaheadlin

makavelian said:


> I just bought a pair of Pro 900's off Ebay and was wondering if the Magni+Modi would be a good match for them. It seems as if they would, as I have read that a bright to neutral amp works well with the Pro 900's and from what iv'e read so far that is the case with this Amp+DAC combo.




I cant comment too far on that because I only have the O2 combo at the moment, but the Pro 900 works great with my two Objectives. The Magni seems almost audibly identical to the O2 (but with more power output), so I wouldn't expect the Pro 900 and Magni combo to be bad at all. 

That being said, I dont have direct experiences with the two being used together, but I'm sure it wont be bad by far.


----------



## Alchemist007

Was looking at the o2+odac combo but if the Magni/modi does the job for that much less...would anyone recommend it as an upgrade over the udac2? I'm wearing the Audio Technica A700x. I'm basically looking for a greater soundstage and less muddy sounding bass.


----------



## RustA

Quote: 





alchemist007 said:


> Was looking at the o2+odac combo but if the Magni/modi does the job for that much less...would anyone recommend it as an upgrade over the udac2? I'm wearing the Audio Technica A700x. I'm basically looking for *a greater soundstage and less muddy sounding bass.*


 
   
  As far as I know from impressions, I would go for ODAC w/ RCA outputs over Modi... And maybe Magni along if you don't mind very high gain that can possibly cause problems (remember that ODAC is already outputting 2vrms).
   
  O2 has VERY good soundstage and very clear bass... That said, Magni could maybe give you a more excitement since it appears to be a bit less neutral.
   
  Well, to put it clear, I would choose this:
  1) Desktop O2/ODAC combo (or separate) w/ RCA outputs, 1/4 headphone out and 1x + 2.5x gain configuration (possible to order from Mayflower electronics)
  2) ODAC + Magni OR ODAC + ordinary O2 (up to you)
  3) Modi + Magni


----------



## BROM3O

Quote: 





rusta said:


> As far as I know from impressions, I would go for ODAC w/ RCA outputs over Modi... And maybe Magni along if you don't mind very high gain that can possibly cause problems (remember that ODAC is already outputting 2vrms).
> 
> O2 has VERY good soundstage and very clear bass... That said, Magni could maybe give you a more excitement since it appears to be a bit less neutral.
> 
> ...


 
  I'm new here at head fi and have been roaming around the website for almost a month now.  I'm very interested in getting the AKG Q701s.  But anyhow, my main question is which pair goes better with the headphones I'm interested in? I've seen a lot of mixed opinions.  Would I really tell a difference on the Q701 with the Modi & Magni vs the O2/ODAC?


----------



## uchihaitachi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Man, it's getting heated in here. Can we be friends? Or am I the devil incarnate, here to lasso your wallet out of your unsuspecting pockets and reduce you to slavering devotees chanting, "schiit, schiit, schiit, more schiit" for the rest of your lives, eagerly forgoing meals and housing so you can simply purchase that next, shiny product?
> 
> ...


 
  Could you elaborate on how your faith in measurements shook?


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Ok so I'm stuck between the o2/odac and magni/modi. I'm running iTunes and Vox, AAC and FLAC files I'm trying to understand what this high gain problem is or could be. Does it mean it will give me feedback? Also am using Grado sr80i 32ohm.


----------



## xnor

If you get the O2 and plan on using it on the desktop with a 2V source (such as the ODAC) I would adjust the gains to the following:
  3.5x as high
  1x as low


----------



## DrikTheTroll

Modi +1 
  Magni a bit too bright for my taste


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Seems like most people think the o2/odac is the better choice. But the modi/magni looks so good.


----------



## adydula

I think its the better choice but I dont think you will really hear any real world differences between the two....one may be a bit less quiet with more sensitive cans but when your listening to louder levels etc it doesnt really matter.
   
  I have owned the Schiit ASGARD and Lyr..both built well and worked well.....
   
  I have 2 odacs and o2 amps which work well.
   
  My preference is the o2 based on the design and the results.
   
  A.


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Will it make a huge or subtle difference upgrading from a Fiio E17?


----------



## adydula

What is your question?
   
  Upgrading from a E17 to a Schiit Modi.Magni? or to a o2 amp and ODAC?
   
  A.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





rusta said:


> As far as I know from impressions, I would go for ODAC w/ RCA outputs over Modi... And maybe Magni along if you don't mind very high gain that can possibly cause problems (remember that ODAC is already outputting 2vrms).
> 
> O2 has VERY good soundstage and very clear bass... That said, Magni could maybe give you a more excitement since it appears to be a bit less neutral.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Why do some people prefer the ODAC with *RCA *outputs? To connect the ODAC to a (high-end) amp or receiver?


----------



## xnor

My guess is because RCA is pretty much standard for consumer/home audio.


----------



## JakeJack_2008

Quote: 





xnor said:


> My guess is because RCA is pretty much standard for consumer/home audio.


 
  That's what I'm trying to find out (without _any _




_geuessing_). Ha, ha, ...


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Oh sorry. Either one. I'm using a fiio e17 with a pair of Sony mdr v6 and grado sr80. I'm thinking of upgrading to modi/magni or o2/odac. Would either one of those 2 setups make a huge noticeable difference or is the quality of fiio e17 pretty close? Sorry just that e17 is my first and only amp/dac. Was also looking at Aune T1 which uses a tube.


----------



## adydula

Most people in the headfi community are orientated towards headphones..taking source material from a pc usb to the dac and then to a small portable amp etc...
   
  Many folks with a 2 ch audio setup have started to use PC's for there digitized music library and connect the PC to the dac then use RCA outs on the dac to there pre-amp...etc
   
  So RCA is the common thread here.
   
  A.


----------



## Overwerk

as one of the earliest to get the stack, and since this stack is to my opinion the ultimate manifestation of the Schiit Spirit, O2 Odac can turn, around, and keep, walking, in the world of sub 500 system, M&M  RULES


----------



## tdockweiler

Have to disagree with how they both sound too similar. To me the Magni sounds like a slightly brighter/thinner version of the O2. Less smooth. The Magni sounds cold/thin, but the O2 doesn't. I'm 1000% positive this wasn't caused by the Modi.
   
  Instead of the Schiit Stack I would suggest the Modi+O2. Weird, I know.
   
  Had the ODAC and felt like the Modi was a bit better in one small area and I could barely tell much difference at all. The difference between the Magni and O2 is much greater. Yeah I know they have very similar measurements.
   
  I honestly can't suggest the Magni with brighter headphones (DT-990/K702/Grado SR-325 etc), but the O2 should be fine. I'm using the O2 with the Q701 and it's perfectly OK.
   
  Best advice is to try both sets if you can 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm glad i've now gotten a chance to do that. Probably all just depends on preference. I'm sure they sound 100% identical with some headphones.
   
  Loving the O2, but the Modi is my favorite DAC. I prefer it to the HRT MSII, E17 and ODAC. Tempted to upgrade to the Bifrost sometime.
   
  If I had just the HD-650 or a warm sounding headphone, the Magni is fine. I just prefer something that sounds great with everything equally.
   
  Hate to say it but I liked the Magni even less than the E9. I didn't hate the Magni, but I only kept it for a few months.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> Have to disagree with how they both sound too similar. To me the Magni sounds like a slightly brighter/thinner version of the O2. Less smooth. The Magni sounds cold/thin, but the O2 doesn't. I'm 1000% positive this wasn't caused by the Modi.
> 
> Instead of the Schiit Stack I would suggest the Modi+O2. Weird, I know.
> 
> ...


 
  Or you could do what I did and go oDac Matrix M Stage <3. Screw both the O2 and the Magni, My matrix is much sexy'r  [after market op amp as well]
   
  Still lol, good to hear the sound is simmilar, also can you roll OP amps into a O2 or a Magni? As I have a LME 49990 in my matrix and well it's a very NICE improvement over what ever stock crap was in it, so going back to looks, get the one you like best and slap a new OP amp into it. Still I like that the oDac is a touch thinner, it pairs nice with the SLIGHTY warm/Lean LME49990 I run in my Matrix


----------



## techboy

I don't think either allow opamp rolling.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





techboy said:


> I don't think either allow opamp rolling.


 
  Uhh tech are you sure -.-


----------



## stv014

The O2 definitely does allow "rolling" the op amps (not that there is much point doing so, but if you want to, you can). The Magni is discrete (transistor based), so you obviously cannot roll op amps in that.


----------



## techboy

I said I think. That means I am not certain.


----------



## adydula

Yes you can with the O2, but like the designer said its more a less a waste of time....but if u want go for it...
   
  Its perfect as it is....
   
  A.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Or you could do what I did and go oDac Matrix M Stage <3. Screw both the O2 and the Magni, My matrix is much sexy'r  [after market op amp as well]
> 
> Still lol, good to hear the sound is simmilar, also can you roll OP amps into a O2 or a Magni? As I have a LME 49990 in my matrix and well it's a very NICE improvement over what ever stock crap was in it, so going back to looks, get the one you like best and slap a new OP amp into it. Still I like that the oDac is a touch thinner, it pairs nice with the SLIGHTY warm/Lean LME49990 I run in my Matrix


 
   
  I always wanted to try the M-Stage, but I went with the Micro Amp back in the day and i'm glad I did. I also tend to try to go with US built products whenever possible. I imagine the M-Stage and Micro Amp sound pretty similar. They do share the same stock op-amps but this doesn't really mean a thing.
   
  I actually bought the O2 as a backup/bedroom amp. I'm so glad it's similar to my Micro Amp. I normally would use the E17 as my amp in the bedroom and I was surprised there was an audible improvement going from the E17 (DAC) to O2 instead of just the E17 as amp/dac. You know...I could have just used my TVs headphone jack, but what fun is that.
   
  The O2 does seem maybe like 1.5% leaner in the mids than my Micro, but probably my imagination 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. If I had to choose I'd probably go with the Micro over the O2 for the Q701, but who knows.
   
  O2+Modi sure is unforgiving of garbage tracks. Even more so with the Q701.
   
  I wonder how the O2 and M-Stage compare? I'm guessing maybe close but the M-Stage might be a tad warmer (barely audible).


----------



## TMRaven

Yes there are slight differences between the two combos.  The Schiit are slightly more bright and 'hard/aggressive,' while the Objectives are slightly warmer and more 'soft/laid back.'
   
  For the average consumer who's looking to drop less than 300 into a dac/amp combo though, these minimal differences aren't even worth considering, because the the differences in aesthetics, price and international shipping ability are more key. 
   
  As much as I'd like to partake in the typical head-fi hyperbole and exaggeration for the sake of comparison, I much rather be honest to the consumer and not mislead them into thinking these differences would lead to hugely noticeable characteristics when they actually buy and listen to the things.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Yes there are slight differences between the two combos.  The Schiit are slightly more bright and 'hard/aggressive,' while the Objectives are slightly warmer and more 'soft/laid back.'
> 
> For the average consumer who's looking to drop less than 300 into a dac/amp combo though, these minimal differences aren't even worth considering, because the the differences in aesthetics, price and international shipping ability are more key.
> 
> As much as I'd like to partake in the typical head-fi hyperbole and exaggeration for the sake of comparison, I much rather be honest to the consumer and not mislead them into thinking these differences would lead to hugely noticeable characteristics when they actually buy and listen to the things.


 
  There you are, just about what you looks better to you.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Yes there are slight differences between the two combos.  *The Schiit are slightly more bright and 'hard/aggressive,' while the Objectives are slightly warmer and more 'soft/laid back.'*
> 
> For the average consumer who's looking to drop less than 300 into a dac/amp combo though, these minimal differences aren't even worth considering, because the the differences in aesthetics, price and international shipping ability are more key.
> 
> As much as I'd like to partake in the typical head-fi hyperbole and exaggeration for the sake of comparison, I much rather be honest to the consumer and not mislead them into thinking these differences would lead to hugely noticeable characteristics when they actually buy and listen to the things.


 
   
  I think these minimal differences are very important and you should have mentioned them in your review. It actually would be useful to people.
  I would never suggest the Schiit Stack to someone with a bright headphone such as the Grado SR-325is, K701 or DT-990. Not even the Q701!
   
  I can't even tell by your review if it's both or just the Schiit Stack that you thought was best suited for neutral or warm headphones.
   
  IMO the O2/ODAC is fine with bright headphones..the Modi/Magni...not so much. The O2/ODAC doesn't sound bright at all but some may disagree.
   
  I think the differences are enough to make one hate a specific headphone with one of these setups but like it with the other. I'm sure some will disagree.
   
  I think the review is a bit over-simplified. So much that it's really not useful to the average consumer.
   
  Basically it's making the Magni/Modi out to seem like a clone of the O2/ODAC and it's not. Magni sounds like a *slightly* more bright/tinny/thin version of the O2. No exaggeration there.
   
  Not trying to argue and I hope I don't across as a jerk, but I just hope that people read tons of other reviews before deciding which setup to buy. Try both setups if you can. Schiit has a 15 day trial I think.
   
  Right now i'm using O2+Modi and love it. Seems to play well with everything now just like my main setup.
   
  Nothing wrong with the Magni and I'd probably have kept it if I had only warm/slightly dark headphones like the HD-650 or HD-598.
   
   
  TL;DR
   
  If an amp/dac combo is only good with a specific type of headphone, then i'd say that's quite a large difference and it's worth pointing out.


----------



## TMRaven

Not at all.  Magni/Modi  work just as well or unwell with bright headphones like HE-400 and DT990 as the O2/ODAC do.  If I found the Magni/Modi to be too bright and aggressive for bright headphones I wouldn't be using them right now, and would have gone back to the O2/ODAC.
   
  'It actually would be useful to poeple'... in what way?  Is that basically saying the review by itself is not useful?  What a load of crap.  I'm here to dispel all the hyperbole and exaggeration that plagues head-fi-- to be real with people.  If someone had a DT990 and bought the Magni/Modi and found it to work well, they would find the O2/ODAC to work just as well for it.  If someone had a DT990 and bought the Magni/Modi and found it overly sibilant and tizzy, they would find the O2/ODAC just as sibilant and tizzy.  It's just as well if I said that if someone had Magni/Modi with the DT990 and wanted more bass, that I would not recommend the O2/ODAC, I would recommend something much, much more different.
   
  The differences are not enough to hate a specific headphone with a certain combo over the other.  I'm being a realist here, and that's much more honest and friendly to your average consumer than spewing the common exaggeration that plagues this site and has caused me quite a bit of displeasure throughout my journey because I was misled just like you might be misleading people right now.  For example, I tried to get into the tube rolling business when I had a little dot amp, I changed the stock Chinese tubes to Mullards because a lot of people said they would add a lot more bass depth and warmth.  What a load of ****.
   
  Never in my review did I say the Magni/Modi are a clone of the O2/ODAC, that's just your mind at work.  However what I am doing in it is recommending the Magni/Modi over the O2/ODAC wholeheartedly because you get that same great budget sound for a fraction of the price and better aesthetics.  If you need portability, want adjustable gain or you're outside the USA (if Schiit's still doing only usa shipping), then get the O2/ODAC then.  Those are much, much, much better reasons than trying to tweak your headphones with less than a 3-5% difference of sound.
   
  If I were comparing two hypothetical 5000 dollar amp/dac setups, I would go very in depth about the smallest of the smallest differences, because at that point the people buying that type of equipment are so separated from reality and far down the audiophile hobby that you need to talk hyperbole with them, because what they're after are those super subtle refinements and differences that come at that price point.  Someone buying 300 dollars worth of amp and dac combined?  They want to have a great amplifier and dac for their headphone.  Recommending something so similar to another because they find a certain aspect of their pairing lacking is not moral at all-- you should be recommending something vastly different.


----------



## tdockweiler

If the Magni/Modi works so well with bright headphones why did you say in your review it's better matched up with neutral or warm headphones? That's what made no sense for me. If I had a DT-990 I wouldn't want an amp that's "slightly more hard/aggressive". I'd want an amp that doesn't even remotely alter how my headphone should sound. So far i've only found two amps that are equally good with everything. I don't mind some very slight coloration though. To me the Magni had too much. Supposedly it's ruler flat and totally transparent etc. What's weird about the Magni as an amp is that it reminded me of how the Ipod Touch 2G sounds. Neither of them sounded even remotely warm (not that I care!).
   
  There is no way I could believe that a DT-990 would be equally as good on a Magni/Modi as the O2/ODAC, but i'll take your word for it I guess.
   
  It's just strange to me that I found the Magni to make all my headphones *slightly* brighter, colder and thinner than they should be. It actually felt like it was sucking all the warmth out of my Q701 (yes, a little exaggeration there). With the O2 it was exactly how it's always been and almost a clone of the Micro Amp. The O2 only sounds bright/trebly if it's in the recording or it's the headphone. Even when switching sources the Magni sounded like it added it's own minor coloration. Ipod Touch 2G LOD cable to Magni was especially bad. I even was stupid and tried a Clip+ to Magni and it was almost unrecognizable (not due to extra distortion). I bet you could connect a dozen different sources to the O2 and the O2 would only sound like what's attached to it (if it has some coloration).
   
  I guess we can agree to disagree. It seems like you and I totally hear the O2 and Magni differently. Nothing new there and no big deal. It will be interesting to see more comparisons in the future of the Magni and O2. It seems that a lot of people have said the Magni is a little brighter. You said maybe a 3-5% difference, but I was thinking maybe like 10% 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hearing the differences between these can also be due to what headphone is used. I bet if I used my HD-650 the differences would be much smaller. Strangely enough the biggest differences are heard with my KRK KNS-8400 and DJ100. Makes no sense.
   
  I really wish I didn't reply to this thread. Not trying to say i'm right and you're wrong. People should just take all reviews with a grain of salt and try them with their own ears. It is kind of strange that I ended up with the Modi + O2. I really have such bad luck with gear suggested on Head-Fi. Most all of it I disliked or got rid of pretty quickly.
   
  Sounds like i'm bashing the Magni, but i'm way too picky I guess. I did like it, but only with specific headphones. I actually love the Modi so much that I even want to try the Bifrost sometime. Loving the O2 right now though. I bought it for my bedroom and hasn't moved from my desktop yet since I've been listening to it so much.
   
  Oh and I know you didn't say the O2/ODAC is a clone of the Modi/Magni's sound. You really didn't think people would think this when they saw your review? I mean you didn't even really point out a single difference!
   
  EDIT:
   
  Not sure why I didn't just post "I disagree" instead of posting my stupid opinions and crapping all over this thread. It seems there is plenty of people out there perfectly happy with the Magni/Modi and brighter headphones. Not me! Maybe i'm ultra sensitive to treble or something. Even the Ipod Touch 2G sounds too bright to me.
   
  I'm sure there are some who will both disagree and agree with me on how the Magni sounds. Nobody ever seems to hear equipment the same way to begin with...
   
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Not at all.  Magni/Modi  work just as well or unwell with bright headphones like HE-400 and DT990 as the O2/ODAC do.  If I found the Magni/Modi to be too bright and aggressive for bright headphones I wouldn't be using them right now, and would have gone back to the O2/ODAC.
> 
> 'It actually would be useful to poeple'... in what way?  Is that basically saying the review by itself is not useful?  What a load of crap.  I'm here to dispel all the hyperbole and exaggeration that plagues head-fi-- to be real with people.  If someone had a DT990 and bought the Magni/Modi and found it to work well, they would find the O2/ODAC to work just as well for it.  If someone had a DT990 and bought the Magni/Modi and found it overly sibilant and tizzy, they would find the O2/ODAC just as sibilant and tizzy.  It's just as well if I said that if someone had Magni/Modi with the DT990 and wanted more bass, that I would not recommend the O2/ODAC, I would recommend something much, much more different.
> 
> ...


----------



## TMRaven

When I originally wrote my 'how do they sound?' section of the review, I intended it to be from the point of view of someone who had already heard the O2/ODAC and wanted to know how the-- then new-- Magni/Modi would sound in comparison.  I've since then edited (a couple hours ago) it to take into consideration both setups to someone who's never heard either one.  I originally meant and still meant that it wouldn't ultimately be idea for both setups to be used with bright/thin headphones, however they're still great improvements for such headphones compared to nearly all onboard solutions.
   
   
  Most of your post sounded like one big confirmation bias for the O2/ODAC being perfectly neutral whereas the Magni/Modi are not-- are you being suckered in by voldermort's propeganda?  You can't make ultimate/stand-alone assumptions like that saying one is perfectly neutral whereas the other one is not.  That's a pet-peeve of mine.  Everything in this hobby is relative and should be relative to one another.  You have no idea if the O2/ODAC is perfectly uncolored while the Magni/Modi is brighter than normal, because you'll always be comparing different components' sounds and you'll always be including the headphone's sound as part of the comparison.  Yes, you can hear as much source components as you want and say 'O2/ODAC sound exactly like how it's always been,'  but at the same time I could say to you 'it could have always been colored to start with.'  Saying Magni/Modi is ever-so-slightly more aggressive and bright compared to the O2/ODAC is where you should end the comparison.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> When I originally wrote my 'how do they sound?' section of the review, I intended it to be from the point of view of someone who had already heard the O2/ODAC and wanted to know how the-- then new-- Magni/Modi would sound in comparison.  I've since then edited (a couple hours ago) it to take into consideration both setups to someone who's never heard either one.  I originally meant and still meant that it wouldn't ultimately be idea for both setups to be used with bright/thin headphones, however they're still great improvements for such headphones compared to nearly all onboard solutions.
> 
> 
> Most of your post sounded like one big confirmation bias for the O2/ODAC being perfectly neutral whereas the Magni/Modi are not-- are you being suckered in by voldermort's propeganda?  You can't make ultimate/stand-alone assumptions like that saying one is perfectly neutral whereas the other one is not.  That's a pet-peeve of mine.  Everything in this hobby is relative and should be relative to one another.  You have no idea if the O2/ODAC is perfectly uncolored while the Magni/Modi is brighter than normal, because you'll always be comparing different components' sounds and you'll always be including the headphone's sound as part of the comparison.  Yes, you can hear as much source components as you want and say 'O2/ODAC sound exactly like how it's always been,'  but at the same time I could say to you 'it could have always been colored to start with.'  Saying Magni/Modi is ever-so-slightly more aggressive and bright compared to the O2/ODAC is where you should end the comparison.


 
   
  LOL yes i'm a complete O2 Fanboy now! OK, not really, but maybe soon? I'm getting there! I AM a Headroom Micro Amp fanboy for sure. I really haven't read a lot about the O2 design but have read his page a few times. I actually didn't even know who voldemort was until a few months ago. I actually get tired of hearing "it's a wire with gain". Or how if my Modi sounds any different than the ODAC it's colored!
   
  I actually felt my Micro Amp was like MY definition of what a transparent headphone amp would sound like. Took me years to really figure this out. I kept blaming it for things when it was my DACs fault 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When I attach a headphone up to it it always sounds no different than how it normally should. Just some minor improvements but the same sound. If I attach a Fuze+ it sounds like a Fuze+. To make it sound REALLY bad I can hook my portable CD player up. With my Micro there is no such thing (for me) as synergy. Sometimes extra warmth from the E17's DAC is nice though.
   
  When I got the O2 I was pretty shocked how little difference there was between the Micro. I don't even know what a truly transparent headphone amp sounds like. I'm betting on the Micro and something that alters my headphone and DACs sound as little as possible.
   
  So because of my other amp i'm pretty confident that the O2 is pretty transparent. Actually I don't even care! I just want my headphone to not sound dramatically different.
   
  You know what's weird? Why are ALL transparent dacs/amps almost always labeled as thin/bright/cold etc? I never got that with the Micro Amp, Modi or ODAC. Both of them only sounded that way with bad recordings or it's the headphones fault.
   
  It's always possible the O2/ODAC isn't as transparent as people say. I don't really care much. Maybe the Modi/Magni is the most transparent setup ever made and I just don't like it as much? I prefer an amp that doesn't sound cold and doesn't sound warm. There I go again sounding like one of his minions, but I'm serious. Oh and of course it can be warm/cold due to the recording of course, but not because of the amp itself.
   
  Strangely if you compare the O2 and Micro, the O2 sounds like 1% colder. Is that annoying to hear? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pretty sure I was hearing things. The O2 sure does sound crystal clear though with good recordings. Not sure why. Basically that's the only major thing that sticks out for me.
   
   
  EDIT:
   
  Oh I know the Modi/Magni is neutral on paper. I saw the measurements. So many different amps/dacs are ruler flat but sometimes almost never sound that way. For example, the E10 sounds too dark and the E17 is perfect to me and had just a slight touch of warmth. I must be the only one who dislikes the E10 and E7 but loves the E17. They even use the same chipsets I believe (not that this matters). Lots of my portable players sound bright yet measure flat. Sometimes I think i'll never understand why. I hate the Ipod Touch 2G sound and it's not really that I need a warm sounding device.


----------



## TMRaven

Probably because transparent is a word that's shamefully used too much on head-fi where nobody really knows what it means.  At least, if they do, I know I've seen it used to represent 100 different ideas.  At least it's not as bad as musical or dynamic.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> Probably because transparent is a word that's shamefully used too much on head-fi where nobody really knows what it means.  At least, if they do, I know I've seen it used to represent 100 different ideas.  At least it's not as bad as musical or dynamic.


 
   
  Not as bad as "wire with gain". Who came up with that non-sense? Is that even possible? I wish.
   
  I have no problem calling an amp/dac transparent as long as it doesn't screw with how a headphone is supposed to sound. I'm ok with some coloration for those that like it.
  I wouldn't call something like the E9 transparent, but it's still fairly neutral. I could barely tell apart the HRT MSII and ODAC with that thing. Not even kidding. With the Micro and probably O2 it's easy.
   
  Maybe it's really possible for a 1000% transparent amp to really sound "bad" with a bright headphone. You know..I always wondered that.
   
  I honestly have always just hated amps that are only good with specific headphones. After I had that happen with my amp (not Magni) I had to encounter the same thing with my DAC.
   
  I would always describe my SRH-940 as having a slight touch of warmth and it was probably coming from my old DAC. Doh. My DAC made it sound like a mix between a K701 and HD-598 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  BTW one thing I've noticed with "transparent" amps (or all amps?) is that they don't seem to like surge protectors that are MOV based. It seems to make them sound more muffled.
  I'd love some genius here to explain that for me! Sounds like extra distortion or something. Probably impossible...


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

tdockweiler said:


> Not as bad as "wire with gain". Who came up with that non-sense? Is that even possible? I wish.
> 
> I have no problem calling an amp/dac transparent as long as it doesn't screw with how a headphone is supposed to sound.




That's basically what we mean by wire with gain


----------



## adydula

The O2 is close to a straight wire with gain at least on my oscilloscope.....its adds nothing and takes away nothing...and after months of ab'ing I sold all the other stuff...and dont worry about the amp anymore.
   
  To me any other amp contenders have to live up to the specs of the O2 period. Its a great base to start from.
   
  Whether you think of voldermorts diatribe as propaganda or not it has made many other vendors stand up and look at what they are doing....to all of our benefit.
   
  The magni/modi is for sure head and shoulders above the O2/ODAC as far as aesthetics....they really look very very nice....but I really dont care that much about looks etc
   
  Its all about the sound and being as transparent and neurtral as possible.
   
  The O2 does this very well.
   
  Alex


----------



## TMRaven

Wire with gain is indeed a very nonsensical term.  I will not listen to anyone who as so much tries to defend it.


----------



## uchihaitachi

tmraven said:


> Wire with gain is indeed a very nonsensical term.  I will not listen to anyone who as so much tries to defend it.




Audio engineers have always used the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should strive to do and an o2 is just that. It is a much better term IMO than agressive, bright, warm, tizzy.....


----------



## TMRaven

In what way is O2 just a wire with gain?  Using the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should ideally be and using it to actually describe an amp are two entirely different things.  You can actually partake in conversation with terms such as aggressive, bright, warm and tizzy, but the term 'wire with gain' is a mere idea, there's nothing tangible about it.


----------



## uchihaitachi

tmraven said:


> In what way is O2 just a wire with gain?  Using the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should ideally be and using it to actually describe an amp are two entirely different things.  You can actually partake in conversation with terms such as aggressive, bright, warm and tizzy, but the term 'wire with gain' is a mere idea, there's nothing tangible about it.




The O2 is exactly that a wire with gain. It does not distort, does not add any unwanted audible artifacts. All it seeks to do is amplify the signal without altering anything or adding in any coloration etc.... If I remember correctly even its designer referred to it as a wire with gain.


----------



## uchihaitachi

In fact it is also very tangible. Wire with gain means transparency i.e. The technical definition of the word so there are several crteria that the amp should meet in order to be audibly transparent.


----------



## TMRaven

The O2 does in fact distort-- sooner than the Magni as an extra bonus.  Feed it too powerful source a while running it on high gain and things will start measuring nasty and sound nasty as well.  Also, trying to vindicate a nonsensical term by using another nonsensical term is just ridiculous.
   
   
  There are a lot of amps that measure near ideal with the very limited tool of measurements used.  They almost all have a completely flat FR and distortion far below the threshold of reasonable listening levels, yet you will hear differences in a lot of those amps that measure near identical.  Anyone with a lick of experience in amplification will tell you that O2 isn't the end-all for headphone amps.
   
   
  Now then, if you could do me a solid and be so kind as to stop being a mindless tool of nwavguy's, I would like this topic to not repeat the history of many others that had to be closed because they were ransacked by people like you who have a proclivity for engaging in circular arguments about ideals.  I know I'm stopping right now because I know it's a lost cause talking to walls.


----------



## miceblue

^ I concur. I like the O2 for its price, as I don't want to shell our more than $500 on an amp, but I don't think it's the end of all amps.


----------



## uchihaitachi

Quote: 





tmraven said:


> The O2 does in fact distort-- sooner than the Magni as an extra bonus.  Feed it too powerful source a while running it on high gain and things will start measuring nasty and sound nasty as well.  Also, trying to vindicate a nonsensical term by using another nonsensical term is just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> There are a lot of amps that measure near ideal with the very limited tool of measurements used.  They almost all have a completely flat FR and distortion far below the threshold of reasonable listening levels, yet you will hear differences in a lot of those amps that measure near identical.  Anyone with a lick of experience in amplification will tell you that O2 isn't the end-all for headphone amps.
> ...


 
  Yes all amps distort, but under certain conditions they do fulfil the criteria of audible transparency ie a wire with gain. Congratulations on figuring out that amps do not perform as designed under overpowered sources or taken to the limit. Vindicating a nonsensical term by using another? Are you referring to audible transparency ie the criteria involving frequency response, distortion, noise and time based errors? Mmm nonsensical indeed...
   
  Lots of amps that measure near ideal with very limited tools of measurements. So I assume you trust your ears over professional measuring equipment. Obviously under certain conditions which you have mentioned already the same measuring amps may end up sounding vastly different... Have you recently just figured this out?
  Did I ever say the O2 is the end all for headphone amps? Have a look at my gear list and see for yourself that it is evidently not the case. Yes I do have an O2 which I purchased out of curiosity and did measurements myself and which I use under conditions which allow it to perform to its best ie like a wire with gain. 
   
  Before you go around calling others a tool, I think you should realise that you are being the tool, ridiculing definitions you don't understand and putting words in other people's mouth.


----------



## adydula

The O2 does not distort if you operate it in its design parameters.
   
  Its really silly to operate a device beyond its parameters just to say it distorts.
   
  Really?
   
  A.


----------



## xnor

The biggest audible differences result from:
  - sighted, biased comparisons
  - not properly level-matching the amps
  - channel imbalances
  - different output impedance (=> differences in frequency response and again volume)
   
  Only after those things are fixed/close enough it makes sense to compare things like distortion and noise.
   
  Many problems are improved by using the lowest possible gain, which is simple to adjust with the O2.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





tdockweiler said:


> I think these minimal differences are very important and you should have mentioned them in your review. It actually would be useful to people.
> I would never suggest the Schiit Stack to someone with a bright headphone such as the Grado SR-325is, K701 or DT-990. Not even the Q701!
> 
> I can't even tell by your review if it's both or just the Schiit Stack that you thought was best suited for neutral or warm headphones.
> ...


 
  Indeed, actually a really good point you make there. I did NOT get the Magni because I had two Beyer cans, which are already BRIGHT enough as it is.
   
  Although I wonder how much better or brighter my cans will sound of an Audio GD NFB 10ES2... any one compare the O2 to that amp [as it's my next upgrade] [and yes I have Fully Balanced cans]


----------



## tdockweiler

The O2 actually does seem to have an ultra tiny bit of brightness to it in the treble also (despite not being measurable). It's still fine with the K400, Q701 and KRKs though. Not quite as bad as the Magni. It's almost impossible to hear with most music (like 95% of it). If you listen to the harshest of harsh music it's there. One example is on some Utada Hikaru Live tracks. Almost gives me a headache.
   
  When switching from the Modi to E17 as a DAC it's maybe a little bit better, but still mostly the same. I can't hear any treble roll off on the E17 DAC.
   
  How do you tell if it's really the music's fault, the O2 or the headphone? Impossible i'd think. I'm going to say it's just nit-picking.
   
  I switched to my Micro Amp and it's smooth on nearly everything and the same song. Ruler flat with no drop off in the treble. I'm glad it's not caused by the Modi or E17.
   
  Oh and I know you'll all say my Micro is just colored. My money is on it being more transparent than the O2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My ears tell me this.
   
  Overall the O2 sounds great with all my headphones and 95% of my music. I think any music that's enough to bother me that badly is worth deleting.
   
  Could be the O2 is just more revealing of crap. Basically they sound nearly identical, but that the Micro sounds like a very very slightly smoother O2.
   
  O2 is definitely the best budget amp i've ever heard under $150. Well, duh.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *tdockweiler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> How do you tell if it's really the music's fault, the O2 or the headphone? Impossible i'd think. I'm going to say it's just nit-picking.


 
   
  Music can be analyzed in software, and obvious problems due to bad mastering (like excessive dynamic compression or clipping) can be detected. It can also be compared to known "good" tracks for tonal balance problems like boosted treble or sibilance. Headphones have frequency response graphs available - if a particular model is measured to have a 10 dB treble peak, then it makes more sense to blame the brightness on the headphones than the O2.


----------



## adydula

and it now available for $129!
   
  A.


----------



## cubiboy90

tmraven said:


> *The Objective Combo*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you mix Magni - ODAC , Modi - O2 ? May be you will find out something


----------



## TMRaven

I have absolutely no reason to test a magni or modi by themselves if paired with another component.  They're meant to be a pair aesthetically.
  
 Find out something as in what?  Assuming I'm ignorant on the matter at hand?


----------



## muad

Lol, I think he meant maybe there would some kind of magical synergy if you mixed and matched...


----------



## TMRaven

Nothing more magical than looking at a Magni sitting on top of a Modi or vice-versa.  A heaping stack of Schiit.


----------



## Nowhere

initially i had the modi/magni but i spent little time with them and returned them for the odac/o2 because i felt the modi/magni had an effect on my listening to where it was too fast/energetic which i'm not a fan of... it was my first official setup into the world of amps & dacs so i didn't know what to expect or anything to compare to.
  
 i've had decent time with my o2/odac now and it's an interesting, somewhat funny experience... i say funny because i've actually enjoyed the set up much more for movies/television and situations where i'm observing sound like listening to the live feed on big brother where they're whispering and it's hard to hear, i'm one of those people who has trouble with muffled sounds, not distorted or even low just muffled and with this set up all sound is so crystal clear and it's now rare to have any muffled sound moments.
 while this has been a surprisingly entertaining stumbling into... it wasn't exactly my intent haha.
  
 the same reasons i've greatly enjoyed it for the aforementioned is the reasons i'm not feeling it as much in the musical side of things, it comes across as too technical and analytical.. it's the "spock" of setups, all logical and analyzing hehe.
 this could be in part based on my headphones the hd600 which from what i've been told are very neutral, so... combining neutrality with even more could be giving me these results.. something like "spock" and "data" (tng) brainstorming together.
  
 if i'm being completely honest it's taken away a bit of the fun side of music and i've noticed myself becoming bored and fatigued quicker than usual, when i say quicker we're still talking about hours.. i usually have long sessions when i get to it but evenso i still have observed myself putting the music down faster than i used to.
  
 the short time i had with the modi/magni, i remember hearing the twang of the guitar player's strings and a more musical experience that i'm now wondering if that was the right choice.
  
  
 oh! and that brings me to one of the points i wanted to ask about, with the magni/modi i was using rca<--->rca but because this stupid o2 has no rca and i went to the only store that was open at the time officemax which didn't have the right connector it only had a 3.5mm <----> 3.5mm and so i'm using this on it.
 this makes me wonder if the difference i experienced where i mentioned hearing that twang of the guitar and the more musical aspect, could that actually be down to the rca interconnects vs this connection i'm using with the o2/odac?
 i'm hoping to get a 3.5mm ----> rca to test this out and see if that had any real effects...  but now every time i look at this o2 i get annoyed that it doesn't have rca.
  
 anyway, that's my story and rant lol.
  
 i'm currently looking into going in a whole new direction from both the o2/odac and magni/modi but not set on what yet.
  
 [edited the part out about the power button because i'm an idiot and didn't see the thing right there, but in my defense the front of this thing is packed with buttons and connectors]


----------



## TMRaven

The interconnect shouldn't make one lick of difference in sound unless you're one of those guys who believes in cables, so no worries there.
  
 The O2 should be able to be turned off.  It has two buttons in the front-- one for gain switching and the other for power on/off.
  
  
 Yes I would recommend going in a completely different direction altogether from these two combos if you don't want the 'analytical' sound.  You could either go for a much warmer dac/amp or a much warmer pair of headphones.  HD600 aren't exactly fit to my preferences either, in fact I would describe their upper mids as being more aggressive than neutral on certain setups.


----------



## Nowhere

it does? there's so many freaking buttons and connectors on the front of this thing i haven't noticed. i just checked again. haha it actually does have a power button! all this time i'm sitting there trying to figure it out and the button is right there. well, that is completely embarrassing. 
  
 ok i take back the stuff about the power button and call myself an idiot! 
 i'll go back and edit that out. 
  
 would trying out that gain button do anything? i usually just plug stuff in and don't mess with it again. (obviously *cough* power button).. so, not sure if i want to push the thing if it will cause complications.


----------



## Nowhere

got that different cable (with rca connectors/just a basic radio shack one) i spoke of a few posts up, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me but i honestly think it changed the sound experience for the better... not as cold and analytical anymore and actually feeling some of the musicality.
 not a huge change to where it's like "omg this is amazing" but even a small change from that is felt.
 i never bought into the whole wires making a difference but maybe there's something to it afterall. or it's just in my mind.*shrug*.


----------



## tdockweiler

nowhere said:


> got that different cable (with rca connectors/just a basic radio shack one) i spoke of a few posts up, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me but i honestly think it changed the sound experience for the better... not as cold and analytical anymore and actually feeling some of the musicality.
> not a huge change to where it's like "omg this is amazing" but even a small change from that is felt.
> i never bought into the whole wires making a difference but maybe there's something to it afterall. or it's just in my mind.*shrug*.


 
  
 I stopped caring as much about cables when I switched from the HRT MSII to the ODAC and Modi. Now there's like a .5% - 1% difference. Wonder why?
 Before it was much greater it seems like. Maybe the differences are more audible if the gear is more colored?
  
 I've always believed the differences were due to different capacitance ratings and it will vary depending on the gear. Right now I will only buy whatever has good shielding. Monoprice or Mogami.
  
 I wouldn't give Canare to my worst enemy, but I won't derail this thread on why.
  
 What cable did you switch to? IMO Canare/Mogami seems to give me an impression of a little warmth. No changes in frequency response of course.
  
 BTW I still believe that silver plated copper stinks on bright headphones. Someday i'll figure it out.
  
 These days I would never buy an expensive cable, but $30 for an interconnect that's made in the USA is OK.
  
 EDIT: What's weird with the Magni is that I got a ton of hissing/noise with poorly shielded interconnects. I even started hearing it when I was using a crappy detachable headphone cable with my Tony Bennett headphone. Weirdest thing i've ever experienced.
  
 Last night I used my O2 with a Denon 1920 CD player and it sounded amazing. Pretty warm sounding and the best soundstage i've ever heard with the HD-650. Even really airy sounding and that's not the norm with the HD-650. I'm sure the 1920 isn't transparent and more "musical" sounding. Uses BurrBrown chipsets. Paid $10 for it in mint condition.
  
 Sorry off-topic, but I really like the O2! I also keep forgetting I can use it without the wall wart


----------



## Nowhere

to answer:
 i changed from a basic 10 dollar belkin cable 3.5mm>3.5mm connection to a 12 dollar radio shack cable 3.5mm>rca cable
 i believe the switch to using rca cables on my odac changed the sound experience slightly, although as mentioned it could be my mind playing tricks on me. sounds different to me though.


----------



## adydula

the only thing i look for in a cable is its mechancal construction, is it well built with good connectors terminated well.
  
 cap value can be an issue with long runs, but with the short cables i use...i dont really see any major issues here..
  
 A.


----------



## Dizzante

In comparing the magni with the O2 I have found that the magni is a lot brighter than the O2. Out of the two I like the O2 way better for rock music and I like the magni better for acoustic stuff and for artists like Elton John and the mellower styles of music like that. Jack Johnson and Jim Croce sound killer on the magni. The only thing I don't like about the magni is the heat it puts off. There is no heat at all to the O2.


----------



## SovietShaman

I actually *greatly* prefer the look of the o2, and I would just have the odac contained within the unit. The only thing I don't like is the fact it has the power connector on the front, and uses a 1/8" jack instead of 1/4". The price is almost the same between the Schiit and the o2 in kit form, but because of the power and audio connectors I think I'm going to get the Schiit, even though I hate silver look.


----------



## dclaz

Interesting. Are the HE-400's considered hard to drive?


----------



## xnor

dclaz said:


> Interesting. Are the HE-400's considered hard to drive?


 
 Absolutely not. The HE-400 is more sensitive and efficient than the HE-500, which is not hard to drive itself.
  
 With the ODAC/O2 you might even be fine with no (0 dB) gain, and less gain is better.


----------



## TMRaven

There might be a difference in scalability between the two, but in general most modern headphones are not hard to drive at all.  It's especially true with the relative sensitive planars like LCD2 and HE-400, because planars don't really change their sound depending on the output impedance of the amp.


----------



## dclaz

tmraven said:


> There might be a difference in scalability between the two, but in general most modern headphones are not hard to drive at all.  It's especially true with the relative sensitive planars like LCD2 and HE-400, because planars don't really change their sound depending on the output impedance of the amp.


 
  
 Pardon my ignorance, but I thought things like the LCD2 were very hard to drive? And when you say their sound doesn't change, do you mean it's just quieter at all frequencies as opposed to softer in certain areas?


----------



## xnor

The LCD2 is not hard to drive. It's close to a resistive load, so easier to drive than any dynamic headphone in that respect, and fairly sensitive/efficient. Easier to drive than a K701 for example. Needs less current than the Custom One Pro, less voltage than a DT770 Pro or HD600.
  
 In my table it is listed with negative gain, so your amp probably doesn't need any gain with the ODAC. Yeah, it's that easy to drive and yeah, most headphones are.
  
 edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I2lyIQDC24 shows the magnets which are pretty strong.
  
  
 The change due to output impedance doesn't really matter here because afaik both O2 and Magni have close to 0 ohm outputs.
  
 edit: But if you're interested: something like a receiver's headphone jack has a high output impedance. This causes, for example, a bass boost and loose bass with dynamic headphones. Planar magnetics are pretty much purely resistive loads so they don't really care about the output impedance.
 So, if you switch from the Magni or O2 to a receiver with a HD555 you will hear a huge different in the bass, with a HE- or LCD or other planar magnetic headphone you won't.


----------



## TMRaven

dclaz said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I thought things like the LCD2 were very hard to drive? And when you say their sound doesn't change, do you mean it's just quieter at all frequencies as opposed to softer in certain areas?


 
  
  
 There might be a scaling difference, but as far as pure power, there's really not much difference between the LCD2 and HE-400 for instance.  Take the HE-400 on the Magni, and you'll get a satisfying volume at 9 o'clock.  Put the LCD2 on the Magni, and you'll get that same satisfying volume at 9:30ish.
  
 On the topic of scalability, LCD2 might have the better technicalities in lower distortion, resonance and a more even frequency response-- or whatever else, that the small subtle improvements with better gear can be more apparent than the HE-400, which sorta has its own coloration and qualities depending regardless of the upstream components.  It seems as though people confuse that with the need for raw power.


----------



## SunshineReggae

dclaz said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I thought things like the LCD2 were very hard to drive? And when you say their sound doesn't change, do you mean it's just quieter at all frequencies as opposed to softer in certain areas?


 
  
 It probably stems from the flawed logic that if a headphone is expensive, that it would follow that it requires an expensive amp to 'drive properly'. (Meanwhile, there is no subjective consensus about what it means when an amp is 'driving a headphone 'properly'. It usually translates to terminology such as 'tight control over the bass', 'opening up' the headphone, etc.).


----------



## dclaz

xnor said:


> The LCD2 is not hard to drive. It's close to a resistive load, so easier to drive than any dynamic headphone in that respect, and fairly sensitive/efficient. Easier to drive than a K701 for example. Needs less current than the Custom One Pro, less voltage than a DT770 Pro or HD600.
> 
> In my table it is listed with negative gain, so your amp probably doesn't need any gain with the ODAC. Yeah, it's that easy to drive and yeah, most headphones are.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


sunshinereggae said:


> It probably stems from the flawed logic that if a headphone is expensive, that it would follow that it requires an expensive amp to 'drive properly'. (Meanwhile, there is no subjective consensus about what it means when an amp is 'driving a headphone 'properly'. It usually translates to terminology such as 'tight control over the bass', 'opening up' the headphone, etc.).


 
  
  
 I see, it just feels like I keep hearing comments about how hard they are to drive, and they they sound crap if underpowered?
  
 So the statement here is incorrect? 
http://headphones.com.au/psingle?productID=511


> Being one of the more difficult headphones to drive, a good amp is an absolute must.


 
 In this case, I can understand they might be trying to flog an amp....
  
 And most outputs can put out over 1w? as per http://support.audeze.com/entries/20866002-Selecting-an-amp- ?


----------



## xnor

Well sensitivity ranges from 102 (for the rev2, but we only have 1 data point) to roughly 109 dB SPL @ 1V. The ODAC outputs 2 V, so you can add 6 dB to that plus the gain of the amp.
  
 As you can see, if you want 110 dB peaks you don't need much gain in your amp if any at all.
  
  
 I don't agree with the "you need a very powerful amp" / "1W minimum" at all. It's nonsense.
 If you listen to compressed music (pop, rock, metal etc.) then a fraction of this power is enough to cause serious permanent hearing damage only by listening to a few tracks.
 If you listen to highly dynamic classical music, for example, then there can be short, loud peaks but on average the level will be much lower than with compressed music, so you'll never need 1W of continuous output power.
  
  
 The Audeze guys speak of music with 60 dB dynamic range. That is realistic, but what's weird is that they also set the noise floor to 60 dB SPL. A 60 dB noise floor? What concert hall has a noise floor that is as loud as someone talking into your face?
 Silence in a concert hall is maybe around 30 dB SPL. Even if the orchestra produced highly dynamic sound in a well-optimized concert hall with a range of 70 to 80 dB it would still only be 30 + 80 = 110 dB SPL peak.
  
  
 So even if you pick the more inefficient rev2, listen to music with an annoying dynamic range of 80 dB and turn the volume up so that peaks will reach 110 dB SPL you only need about 100 milliwatts max. On average the amp won't have to output more than <10 milliwatts. The O2 outputs over 600 mW for 33 to 80 ohms.
  
  
  
 edit: Only with something like the HE-6 you'll need a much more powerful amp, maybe even a speaker amp. If you read reviews of HE-6 & EF-6 you will see how bias affects what these people hear. "It's very clear sound" etc. but measurements by the German Audio magazine have shown a signal-to-noise ratio of only 75 dB. That means that fine details of the highly dynamic music mentioned above would be "overshadowed" by the noise produced by the amp.


----------



## adydula

MY LCD2's with the O2 were easily driven to ear splitting levels...
 A.


----------



## dclaz

xnor said:


> Well sensitivity ranges from 102 (for the rev2, but we only have 1 data point) to roughly 109 dB SPL @ 1V. The ODAC outputs 2 V, so you can add 6 dB to that plus the gain of the amp.
> 
> As you can see, if you want 110 dB peaks you don't need much gain in your amp if any at all.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very insightful, thank you.


----------



## Acknown3

xnor said:


> Absolutely not. The HE-400 is more sensitive and efficient than the HE-500, which is not hard to drive itself.
> 
> With the ODAC/O2 you might even be fine with no (0 dB) gain, and less gain is better.


 
 With that last phrase, are you saying that you should always use lowest gain settings that are loud enough for your ears?


----------



## xnor

Yes. I consider the optimal volume control range (in which you listen most of the time) to be between 10 and 2 o'clock.


----------



## mcandmar

I agree, generally speaking the less gain an amp runs the quieter it is, and less prone to distortion.  As above, if you need to wind the volume past 12 o'clock you could probably do with a bit more gain. Aim for ~50% on the volume dial as the maximum volume you will use.


----------



## Acknown3

Having less gain makes sense from a technical standpoint, but with my STX, I prefer high gain and 20% volume to medium gain and 50% volume. Could it be that I subjectively enjoy the distortion more?


----------



## adydula

Even at the higher gain settings with the O2 your not going to get any audible hiss......if there is some its from your recording.
  
 Alex


----------



## MrMateoHead

adydula said:


> Even at the higher gain settings with the O2 your not going to get any audible hiss......if there is some its from your recording.
> 
> Alex


 

 (or from a noisier DAC/audio out such as that implemented in the STX). The O2 is a 'black' amp, but back when I had it plugged in to my Realtek Audio chipset in my laptop, there was hiss at high volume with nothing playing.


----------



## xnor

Of course. Good amps/DACs don't improve the signal, they just degrade it as little as possible. In other words: even a perfect amp could not improve/reduce the noise generated by the DAC, it just wouldn't add more noise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Part of the high performance of the O2 is the fact that the volume control comes after the gain stage. So the noise generated by the gain stage will be attenuated if you turn the volume control down.


----------



## stv014

acknown3 said:


> Having less gain makes sense from a technical standpoint, but with my STX, I prefer high gain and 20% volume to medium gain and 50% volume. Could it be that I subjectively enjoy the distortion more?


 
  
 The STX has entirely digital volume and gain control, and therefore the software "gain switch" does not affect the noise floor or the distortion of the headphone output at matched levels at all. The only things that do affect the noise floor are:
 - software problems on Windows (16-bit volume control, etc.)
 - hardware problems like interference, bad power supply, or ground loops
 - the sample rate (48/96/192 kHz is 6-7 dB less noisy than 44.1/88.2/176.4 kHz because of the re-clocking performed by the C-Media chip in the latter case)
 - the impedance and efficiency of your headphones (use 250+ Ω HD6xx, DTxx0, etc., and there should be no audible noise, with the additional benefits of a high damping factor and low distortion)
  
 If high gain sounds better to you, that can be because of two possible reasons: either you did not match the volume properly (and therefore provided another example of how higher gain fools people into thinking the sound quality has improved, when in fact it did not), or there is some problem in the Windows drivers (for example, under certain circumstances, software dynamic compression is applied to the audio output to avoid clipping, but that should not normally happen at 50% volume).


----------



## stv014

mcandmar said:


> I agree, generally speaking the less gain an amp runs the quieter it is, and less prone to distortion.  As above, if you need to wind the volume past 12 o'clock you could probably do with a bit more gain. Aim for ~50% on the volume dial as the maximum volume you will use.


 
  
 There is nothing wrong with using low gain on the O2, and more than 50% volume.


----------



## adydula

Yup agree there I almost always used unity gain and crank the volume control to where it is needed.
  
 Alex


----------



## mcandmar

Well i use unity gain in my O2 and half volume is my comfort level with Grados, with Sennheisers i use 2.5x gain as half volume is also the most i can comfortably listen to.  Reason for aiming for 50% on the volume pot is because that is the sweet spot for channel balance.


----------



## DoubleFish

This may be a stupid question but I'm considering the Magni and noticed it only uses stereo RCA's for input. If I connect an Xonar DGX with a mini to RCA to the Magni will I lose the Dolby Headphone 5.1 surround effect since the signal is being "split into stereo"?


----------



## stv014

The headphone surround effect is encoded into the stereo output of the sound card. But you need to select "Headphones" instead of "2 Speakers" in the Xonar Audio Center, and enable Dolby Headphone. Note that some Xonar cards that have separate (amplified) headphone and line outputs (specifically, the Essence ST/STX) do not support Dolby Headphone on the line outputs.


----------



## karlsonklam

how do O2 and Magni compare to headphone amps using the 6102?


----------



## saer

Can anyone recommend which setup is better for the HE-500 ? I listen to mainly r&b, jazz, downtempo, lounge & acoustic types of music.


----------



## saer

^nvm i just went with a Asgard 2 and kept my Ti-HD for now, until I can save up for a BiFrost


----------



## joel96

xnor said:


> edit: But if you're interested: something like a receiver's headphone jack has a high output impedance. This causes, for example, a bass boost and loose bass with dynamic headphones. Planar magnetics are pretty much purely resistive loads so they don't really care about the output impedance.
> So, if you switch from the Magni or O2 to a receiver with a HD555 you will hear a huge different in the bass, with a HE- or LCD or other planar magnetic headphone you won't.


 
 It seems like the Modi is preferred over the ODAC due to the Modi sounding less bright; the O2 is preferred over the Magni for the same reason. Receivers are preferred over both for open dynamics due to a greater effect on the bass. For those that prefer warm and bass-heavy headphones, it seems to me like it would be easier to go with a set of dynamics and an AVR receiver (albeit without 0 ohms impedance), enjoy the bass, and forgo the entire M&M vs O2/ODAC transparency debate.


----------



## miceblue

Therefore, us audiophools are wasting our money on these dedicated headphone amplifiers and DACs. What are you waiting for? Head off to your local Goodwill store and get on those 1980s receivers!


----------



## joel96

xnor mentioned AVRs providing more bass than the low-end Schiit and JDS sets. I'm thinking of getting a set of the Fostex T50RPs (probably won't ever mod them); since they're orthodynamic, I'd like to know that the two sets mentioned in this thread will be sufficient to drive the set without leaving out bass due to brightness bias. I have mentioned which three receivers and which speaker amp I had in mind (all of which were manufactured within the last three years), but I'll leave any debate of those particular sets in their own thread.


----------



## xnor

joel96 said:


> It seems like the Modi is preferred over the ODAC due to the Modi sounding less bright; the O2 is preferred over the Magni for the same reason. Receivers are preferred over both for open dynamics due to a greater effect on the bass. For those that prefer warm and bass-heavy headphones, it seems to me like it would be easier to go with a set of dynamics and an AVR receiver (albeit without 0 ohms impedance), enjoy the bass, and forgo the entire M&M vs O2/ODAC transparency debate.


 
 Then these people did not do proper comparisons of the rigs.
  
 Regarding the receivers: well you can take any amplifier really, even powerful enough headphone amps, and add resistors to the output. That will raise the output impedance, raise the bass with dynamic headphones, raise distortion etc. or you just use an EQ and raise the bass exactly how you want it with less increase in distortion.
  


miceblue said:


> Therefore, us audiophools are wasting our money on these dedicated headphone amplifiers and DACs. What are you waiting for? Head off to your local Goodwill store and get on those 1980s receivers!


 
 Well, expensive headphone amps and DACs are definitely a waste of money. Something like the O2 is cheap and performs very well so is not a waste.


----------



## MrMateoHead

miceblue said:


> Therefore, us audiophools are wasting our money on these dedicated headphone amplifiers and DACs. What are you waiting for? Head off to your local Goodwill store and get on those 1980s receivers!


 
 Impedance matching is not the only factor that matters in terms of getting good performance between headphones / amps, so, it sounds like you took the last bit of discussion to an extreme conclusion.


----------



## MrMateoHead

What is this 'brightness bias' talk anyway? The amplifiers in question both measure flat, essentially, which would make them more nuetral than anything else IMHO.


----------



## TMRaven

A lot of amps measure completely flat with distortion below audible levels, but there's still subtle differences in their sound.  The Asgard2 is warmer than the Magni, for example.


----------



## geogga

hmmm, either stack for some mad dogs....gonna be my first headphones setup, and getting more and more confused cuz of this brightness shenanigans.  will probably get the mad dogs and schiit
 EDIT:
 I hear the mad dogs are warm and Your review mentioned they(both combos) would be better paired with warm headphones so that's better for me. Also, do you guys think the magni will help give better bass to mad dogs?


----------



## HiVLTAGE

Nice review, I completley agree.
  
 Schiit Stack > Objective combo
  
 Cheaper, same sound, better looks.


----------



## sling5s

Many have stated that the Magni/Modi combo are slightly bright.  Is it the Magni that is bright or the Modi that is bright, or both?


----------



## jimmers

hivltage said:


> Schiit Stack > Objective combo
> 
> Cheaper, same sound, better looks.


 
 Depends on where you live, that schiit stack bought here would be $355 AU (special combo price, saving $24), DIY O2/ODAC combo (in one case, so smaller) $145 (plus plugpack, I already had a surplus one). So according to your evaluation I got "same sound" and saved >$100.


----------



## jimmers

joel96 said:


> I'm thinking of getting a set of the Fostex T50RPs (probably won't ever mod them);


 
 Noooooo!


----------



## HiVLTAGE

jimmers said:


> Depends on where you live, that schiit stack bought here would be $355 AU (special combo price, saving $24), DIY O2/ODAC combo (in one case, so smaller) $145 (plus plugpack, I already had a surplus one). So according to your evaluation I got "same sound" and saved >$100.





I'm saying here in the States, I never said internationally.


----------



## dusk

which stack do you think would go better with m-100's? coming straight out of a new (retina) MBP.


----------



## miceblue

dusk said:


> which stack do you think would go better with m-100's? coming straight out of a new (retina) MBP.



I think the O2 would probably be a better choice simply because the Magni has twice the power output of the O2 and 5 times the gain if you use the O2's 1.0x unity gain, which I recommend using with the fairly sensitive M-100.

I'm heading off to a mini-meet today and the Magni will probably be there. I can test the M-100 there and report back here if my opinion differs.

As for DACs, the Modi looks nicer, but the ODAC is really small an compact. I have the ODAC because I can easily slip it in my backpack to local meets and have easy access to it at school. It makes no sense for me to carry around an external desktop hard drive-sized DAC.


----------



## dusk

miceblue said:


> I'm heading off to a mini-meet today and the Magni will probably be there. I can test the M-100 there and report back here if my opinion differs.


 
 that would be amazing, that you so much!  as for dacs, I dont mind about portability.. it's going to stay on my desk at work forever.


----------



## miceblue

dusk said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > I'm heading off to a mini-meet today and the Magni will probably be there. I can test the M-100 there and report back here if my opinion differs.
> ...



Or not. The Magni/Modi combo wasn't there since the person couldn't make it. >.>

But from the given information for each amp and M-100, I find the O2 at 1.0x gain with the M-100 is plenty loud for me. Similar reasons have been stated for more sensitive earphones; the Magni, although good, might be too loud for that type of headphone.


----------



## dmxvz

Anyone knows how the magni+ modi compare to the Vali+modi combo ? I'm trying to drive my HD-650's and HE-400's from my MacBook retina


----------



## Insatiable One

jerg said:


> The real question is, would mixing-and-matching the DACs with the amps produce better / worse results? Since there are two components at play here in each combo, it could always be the possibility that one combo has a better DAC and the other a better amp, thus nullifying the differences.


 
 same issue here. I use my ATH-m50's as well as a pair of ATH-AD700x's so, according to TMRaven, it would be better to purchase the O2 over the Magni. However, I am wondering if pairing the O2 with the Modi produce better/worse results? If the result is better because of TMRaven's reason to but the O2, I would prefer to pair the O2 with the Modi because I have a small budget (<$250).


----------



## Insatiable One

dmxvz said:


> Anyone knows how the magni+ modi compare to the Vali+modi combo ? I'm trying to drive my HD-650's and HE-400's from my MacBook retina


 
 On a different thread I read that the Vali is a small step up from the Magni but I don't know how it pairs with the Modi. Personally, if I were to choose from the two, I would choose the Vali for its tube sound. I would have bought the Vali for my first headphone amp but instead I bought the PA2V2 by Gary Ali because it is portable. I have yet to choose between the Magni and the O2 for use at home. My apologies for losing the mentioned thread and not being able to link it here.


----------



## mike1808

Hi, guys. 
  
 I can't decide which of the stacks to buy. I have DUNU DN-1000 and I am going to get AT M50x or beyerdynamic DT-770 80ohms, also I have the very old hifi JBL SG-2030.
  
 Topic starter says that The Objective Combo is good for sensitive headphones and IEM. I don't know whether M50x or 770 and DUNU are sensitive headphones?
  
 Also the important think for me is a possibility to connect DAC to my hifi (it has only RCA input).
  
 I think the The Objective Combo with RCA is good option, but this combo is more expensive at *$150 *than Magni/Modi.
  
 P.S. Can you use my 3.5mm to RCA converter to connect AMP to my hifi? :


----------



## Gloomy Moonie

Hey guys, newbie audio hobbyist here, since I can't create a new thread yet I'll post here (and maybe a few other relevant threads).
After reading the related threads for a while, I gather that the Magni/Modi vs. O2/ODAC dilemma have been largely unresolved in the 2 years' time that both of the products were simultaneously available, and the attempts to arrive at a conclusion are too subjective to rely upon, some are even contradictory but still right in their own regard. What I find most peculiar though, is that nobody has released a video review of the two combos to date, afaik. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it preferable to watch a concrete, to the point video as opposed to reading endless discussions that usually leave me more confused that I was prior to that.

(TL;DR) Despite all that, I've managed to formulate the following questions:
1.





swmtnbiker said:


> Modi/Magni have a smaller soundstage and less air around instruments.



 

Can the same be said for O2/ODAC?
2.





jerg said:


> mixing-and-matching the DACs with the amps produce better / worse results?



 

Would be great if someone could actually test this (TMRaven?), have heard multiple times that the best combo out of the 4 possibilities is the O2/Modi. Not sure whether I'd actually do that because of the aesthetics, doesn't make me any less curious.
3. Is there really no significant difference between the two combos? I find it very hard to believe in light of the price difference, and the appearance difference only adds to the confusion.
4. Some say that the Modi is more "musical" than the ODAC, what does this even mean?
5. Is there anything else apart from those two combos in terms of value? Audio-GD? Any of the other combos on Massdrop?

Headphones I intend to use the combo with: AKG K7XX; AKG Q701; AKG K272; Hifiman RE400;
Preferred genres: classical (youtu.be/KbT0TrFYbOw); metal (youtu.be/8WvRGUiRGoo)
Current setup: old Sony laptop paired with the K272/RE400.

Disclaimer: as previously stated, I'm aware of not being anywhere near savvy in the hobby, so my opinion and the conclusions I have arrived at might be wrong. If that is the case, I encourage the more informed members to correct me without hesitation. Any suggestions/recommendations would also be appreciated.


----------



## nway

Can anyone here give their thoughts on how the Magni/Modi stack pairs with the following headphones?:
 • HD 600
 • Fidelio X1
 • ATH-M50
 • MDR-V6
  
 Anyone use a Vali/Modi stack with these cans? I'm basically deciding whether the Magni or Vali will better complement my cans.


----------



## kevinwu313

Hi guys,
  
 Sadly, I just got my Magni and Modi earlier this month. It's 2-3 days passed the 15-days guarantee.
  
 I'm wondering how much better is Magni 2 and Modi 2 sounded than the original M&M.
  
 I'm in Canada, if they are not better than the original M&M by $50(shipping cost) difference, I'll probably just keep them.
  
 Would love your thoughts... coz this M&M 2 announcement has been getting me kind of regretting buying an amp/dac combo in a rush..


----------



## blse59

gloomy moonie said:


> Hey guys, newbie audio hobbyist here, since I can't create a new thread yet I'll post here (and maybe a few other relevant threads).
> After reading the related threads for a while, I gather that the Magni/Modi vs. O2/ODAC dilemma have been largely unresolved in the 2 years' time that both of the products were simultaneously available, and the attempts to arrive at a conclusion are too subjective to rely upon, some are even contradictory but still right in their own regard. What I find most peculiar though, is that nobody has released a video review of the two combos to date, afaik. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it preferable to watch a concrete, to the point video as opposed to reading endless discussions that usually leave me more confused that I was prior to that.
> 
> (TL;DR) Despite all that, I've managed to formulate the following questions:
> ...


 
 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if the amp and dac has a flat or reasonably flat frequency response, then most people would not be able to tell the difference between them. Tomshardware put up an article where they compared an onboard soundchip ($2), soundcard, dedicated amp/dac, and high end amp/dac ($1000+) and concluded that they could not be reliably distinguished from each other.
  
 So in choosing between the O2/ODAC and Magni/Modi, decide based upon variables other than sound quality since I haven't seen anyone contradict the statement that they're transparent.
  
 Personally, I'm struggling with whether I should spring for any of those stacks in the first place. I have a FiiO E10K amp/dac which cost only $75 and seems perfectly fine driving my HD600's. I can't get anyone to conclusively say that either stack would give me better sound quality.


----------



## Solrighal

blse59 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if the amp and dac has a flat or reasonably flat frequency response, then most people would not be able to tell the difference between them. Tomshardware put up an article where they compared an onboard soundchip ($2), soundcard, dedicated amp/dac, and high end amp/dac ($1000+) and concluded that they could not be reliably distinguished from each other.
> 
> So in choosing between the O2/ODAC and Magni/Modi, decide based upon variables other than sound quality since I haven't seen anyone contradict the statement that they're transparent.
> 
> Personally, I'm struggling with whether I should spring for any of those stacks in the first place. I have a FiiO E10K amp/dac which cost only $75 and seems perfectly fine driving my HD600's. I can't get anyone to conclusively say that either stack would give me better sound quality.


 
  
 I agree with you. I've been looking at upgrading my amp but I'm just not convinced it wouldn't just be a side-grade.


----------



## blse59

......


----------



## blse59

......


----------



## mikek200

blse59 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if the amp and dac has a flat or reasonably flat frequency response, then most people would not be able to tell the difference between them. Tomshardware put up an article where they compared an onboard soundchip ($2), soundcard, dedicated amp/dac, and high end amp/dac ($1000+) and concluded that they could not be reliably distinguished from each other.
> 
> So in choosing between the O2/ODAC and Magni/Modi, decide based upon variables other than sound quality since I haven't seen anyone contradict the statement that they're transparent.
> 
> Personally, I'm struggling with whether I should spring for any of those stacks in the first place. I have a FiiO E10K amp/dac which cost only $75 and seems perfectly fine driving my HD600's. I can't get anyone to conclusively say that either stack would give me better sound quality.


 
 Bise,
 Not sure if this will help.
 As I am waiting on a Stax KGST to be finished,I went ahead and bought a used 02-ODAC,I,ve been using it  for my HD600,and IMO,it is excellent,very neutral ,realistic pairing,
 One other option ,which I got today,was the MODI/Vali combo,and it is outstanding ,simply outstanding,especially with the Beyerdynamic DT880/600ohm headphones,bass goes down extremely low,but with nice detail.
 .
 You might want to try the Vali,it gives out somewhat of a warm tube SQ,smooth
  
 Good Luck in your decision,
 Mike


----------



## lamode

cel4145 said:


> But you are right. If it's already transparent, you can't make it _more_ transparent with additional parts


 
  
 Actually, you can.
  
 An amplifier with balanced outputs uses a lot more parts, as it basically uses two amplifiers per channel. Or the ring DAC configuration is another example. Sometimes the extra parts help to reduce distortion and noise.
  
 If by "transparent" you mean literally 100% analogous to the input, then you would be right, but no amplifier has ever achieved that.


----------



## lamode

jseaber said:


> One thing bothers me about the OP's [awesome] review: the O2 and Standalone ODAC are not meant to be stacked, as they're a cabling disaster this way. The real O2+ODAC combo has a far more orderly appearance since it's assembled in a single box. I've only skimmed through these 18 pages--hope this hasn't already been pointed this out.


 
  
 I have been waiting for someone to point this out. I like the looks of the Schiit gear, but the fact that I would need two cases (and power supplies) instead of one is a major drawback for me as I would be relocating the system several times a day, plus it's just more elegant to have one box.
  
 Does Schiit have any plans to put both products in the one case? That would be a winner.


----------



## lamode

tdockweiler said:


> EQ is too painful. Don't make me do it..


 
  
 High quality digital parametric EQ is probably the single best thing most people could do for their system. There are zero audible artefacts, so no downside, but you can make almost any gear measure ruler flat (or fit whatever curve you prefer). This is completely flexible and adjustable and allows you to stop worrying about mating a 'bright' amplifier with 'bright' phones. I have no idea why anyone would be against this,


----------



## uthemus

TBH, I'm ordering the Magni 2 because I can do Schiit like this:
  
 Hey, I want that Schiit.
 Did you just take a Schiit?  It ******* smells.
 Do you think I give a Schiit?
 It's gonna be a Schiitstorm.
 Well, Schiit...
  
 Seriously, my HD600s are looking forward to getting plugged into this Schiit.


----------



## Solrighal

And I would buy almost anything else for precisely the same reason.


----------



## crybabygohan

nice i was looking at the odac 2 stack setup to drive my AKG K7xx my first open backed headphones and i heard that the 7 series takes a bit more to drive and im guessing the K7xx with its 3db bass boost requires "a bit more" than the other k7---series variants. Either way im glad i saw this it solidified my decision to go with a schiit stack, is there any specific differentiation between the 1.0 models and the recently updated 2.0 models other than the choice for additional I/O at an additional cost? I cant wait for my AKG K7xx to arrive so i can see what open backed sound stage and real sound stage really is. I think this is a slippery slope i am heading down. I think i might just pick up some K240s for the hell of it if this stack can run them since they are so highly regarded when driven correctly.


----------



## Gasp3621

Hi guys,

 It`s so hard to choose between these two. I listen more rock/heavy music, sometimes even some dubstep etc. Cans are Beyer 990 Premium 250ohm and modded Senns HD558. Is there difference in bass punch between these two amps? I prefer the Beyers more over Senns. They have more punch and movies sound better them with too. Senns are boring to me.

 I would also like to know do i really hear the difference with headphone amp/dac combo vs. my Harman Kardon AVR-255 amp which also has Dolby Headphone for movies? It has Cirrus Logic CS42528 DAC. Specs are here:
 http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS42528_F2.pdf

 Options are:

 Schiit Magni 2 Uber with Modi2 (as the uber version is sold out, and it isnt worth the price dif.) * 318€ with USB and RCA cable (PYST)*

 O2DAC combo  *250€ or 300€ (full mod with RCA)  *plus delivery 12€

 AUNE X1 PRO DSD-DAC/Headphone amp *269€ *

 Which one to go?


 Thx!


----------



## thecrow

Looking for some learned views on the magni/modi 2 users v O2/Odac

I read they sound very similar



I like that the modi 2 uber has more than just usb input as per the odac

I also think the gain options of the O2 (looking at 1x and 3.5) are more practical than the magni 2 ubers 1.5x and 6. 

What are your views on the gains of the 2 amps?


Does an O2 and an modi 2 uber work together or these all best bought as their own couples?

Looking for a combo that allows the hd800s to sound like hd800s with those bright mids and highs and great openness
Ta
Peter


----------



## MrMateoHead

thecrow said:


> Looking for some learned views on the magni/modi 2 users v O2/Odac
> 
> I read they sound very similar
> 
> ...


 
  
 Probably better to focus on the features that you need.
  
 Personally I like the 3.5mm inputs of the O2/ODAC, they are convenient, and the sound quality is great. Nice to have some portability, though I haven't taken advantage of that much myself.
  
 The Schiit stuff is much improved, and spec'd for more power. The selectable gain is welcome. Aesthetically pleasing, but extra cable cost. Magni Uber has audio out as well, which may integrate more easily into your setup. Also, lower price (unless you spring for Uber models, which are at ~$300). If you listen to 24-bit, 192 kHz stereo music often, the Uber has you covered (I don't).
  
 You can mix and match Amp/DAC on each however you want. But you would need additional cabling to do 3.5mm conversions. I get some added benefit from my ODAC, because I use it to feed my regular stereo as well sometimes.
  
 It is really a bit of a toss up. Personally, I am an O2 fan, and would stick with it. It is totally black, I love the ESS DAC, and it has had power to spare.


----------



## skree

For me in the UK in 2015 it's quite a bit cheaper to get the o2+odac. The Modi Uber does tempt because i sure could use the extra inputs, but i'd also want a 2nd pair of RCA outs on the Modi, the O2+ODAC combo is available with RCA out as well as 6.3mm.
  
 Not seen a modi opened up to see if there is room for a modification.
  
 and i think the magni2 uber with modi uber combo is rather expensive at £260 +del + cables but i'll have to look into it.
  
 Headphones are not yet decided, leaning heavily towards T50RP mk3 because it's a lot more affordable than the LCD-2 i really want. Both will probably blow me away equally, as they're both WAY better than anything i've ever had before.


----------



## internaught

skree said:


> For me in the UK in 2015 it's quite a bit cheaper to get the o2+odac. The Modi Uber does tempt because i sure could use the extra inputs, but i'd also want a 2nd pair of RCA outs on the Modi, the O2+ODAC combo is available with RCA out as well as 6.3mm.
> 
> Not seen a modi opened up to see if there is room for a modification.
> 
> ...


 

 I went ahead and grabbed the MadDog headphones from MrSpeakers. I'm looking at driving them with a odac2 combo or the magni + modi uber's. Leaning toward the odac2 because of simplicity and no one has made a compelling case for one over the other...


----------



## skree

internaught said:


> I went ahead and grabbed the MadDog headphones from MrSpeakers. I'm looking at driving them with a odac2 combo or the magni + modi uber's. Leaning toward the odac2 because of simplicity and no one has made a compelling case for one over the other...


 
  
 I ended up buying the Aune X1S because of its ES9018 "flagship" DAC, multiple digital inputs, line in, and line out. This fits better into my intended system than the odac2 because I have four digital sources (two via a TOSLINK doubler), one analogue source and i wish to connect to a speaker amp too. Another possibility recommended to me was the AudioGD NFB-11. The Aune was £160 for the combo dac/headamp which made it significantly cheaper than the magni/modi uber combo with a pair of PYST.
  
 Please do not take anything I have said as a recommendation, both because the X1S did not arrive yet, and because i know only enough to know that i know nothing at all and i do not wish to derail this thread into discussing other kit. I merely wish to inform you of alternative products you may not be aware of. Both were promoted to me as being a step above the Schiit and odac2, but what that means in real world terms, I cannot say.


----------



## Deaj

I recently purchased a Magni 2 Uber and it arrived about 2 weeks ago. I've been using it with my Beyer DT250's Pro's and I really like this pairing. The 990's are bright and this can become unpleasant with some tracks. Through the Magni 2 I've not experienced this, even with tracks that I found unpleasant with the 990's through my JDS Objective 2 amp. In fact I like the way all of my headphones sound through the Schiit Magni 2.


----------



## preferred user

deaj said:


> I recently purchased a Magni 2 Uber and it arrived about 2 weeks ago. I've been using it with my Beyer DT250's Pro's and I really like this pairing. The 990's are bright and this can become unpleasant with some tracks. Through the Magni 2 I've not experienced this, even with tracks that I found unpleasant with the 990's through my JDS Objective 2 amp. In fact I like the way all of my headphones sound through the Schiit Magni 2.


 
 Just a note I'm not a Headphone expert enthusiast like a lot of folks here but I like good clean sound ,lossless FLAC /WAV and Tidal Hi FI and I like Head Fi for all this stuff ofc. 
 I just today received a *Schiit Magni 2* from Amazon to use with my *Xonar DGX *PCIe sound card as a source for now. ofc I play 24 and 16 bit lossless FLAC files and Tidal Hifi 16/44 FLAC steaming .
  
 I mostly use basic 50 ohm entry level Senns HD 280 pros and very occasionally my 32 ohm KRK KNS 8400's.  I like the Senns HD 280's better .  
 After some reading here I'm presuming the JDS Labs Objective 2 amp  wouldn't be a worthwhile trade sound wise or provide significantly more bass over the Schiit Magni 2.  
  
 FWIW Some of the reviews here at* Head Fi* steered me to the Schiit Magni 2 in that price range .  OTOH I read  the JDS Labs Objective 2 reviews after I ordered the *Schiit Modi 2* I have now . 
  
  
 I use the Windows 10 Groove music runtime app and libraries to play music from 16 and 24 bit FLAC files although I have WMP and Foobar2000 but they  doesn't sound any better .
  
 The free windows store  included MS Windows 10  Groove music app has a lot of features a good GUI  and ofc the cover art /metadata fetching from the web and different library views and sorting /display options  by genre/album/song artist /date added etc. . You can also integrate it with the Windows store at will (or not at all ) I also use Tidal Hifi 16/44.
  
 The *Xonar DGX *PCIe d/sound card I'm using as a source for the *Magni 2 *is decently clean through my phones with the internal  headphone amp off  using the frt panel jack in speaker mode on the W10 PC .

 The frt panel (w/HP amp off)  *Xonar DGX* TDH+n and noise level specs (on paper) are real close to the *Schiit Modi 2  and Modi 2 Uber  *analog output and outside of the DAC should be inaudibly different at full scale voltage .

 The* Xonar DGX *PCIe card  has an older 5.1 ch 24/192 *Cirrus Logic CS4272 *DAC with a -114 dB noise level although 24/96 is the top resolution supported by the inexpensive Xonar DGX and I suspect the DAC is rather unremarkable these days but would the difference *really be * be significantly audible with less distortion on 2 channels ?  
  
 I'm thinking of the matching *Modi 2 or Modi 2 Uber*  USB DAC  to turn The *Magni 2* into a modest *Schiit stack* * ONLY if the *Modi or Modi 2 uber* are worthwhile additions sound wise from what I have now which on paper at least is open to discussion_ at least aside_ from the DAC ASIC (and it's implementation ) anyway  IMO but I'm also inclined to use a clean studio interface I'll be trying this amp on one of those here in another room here
 
I'll be trying this* Magni 2*  amp and HD HD280's  on one of those pro interfaces here in another room  and on some other phones in there .
 
  
 I'm not immune to serial upgrading any of my pursuits like homes ,  PC's ,vehicles and 2.1 audio in a dedicated acoustically treated PC Game/Music studio to THX PM3 Certified reference levels currently ,3 TV's in this room  in 4 yrs up to a new 2015 Sony XBR 4K WCG  HDR TV set now ( it's da bomb) and an arguably very decent  64f8500 Samsung Plasma out frt and years of being a motorcycle /vehicle and salt water powerboat gear head ( and professional gear head ) and amatuer audio enthusiast for over 40 yrs .........Obviously I'm just starting on phones here so I know the upgrade drill* and* the law of diminishing returns all to well ☻
  
The *Schitt Magni* output power is rated at ~ double the Maximum for the *HD 280*'s 64 ohms so it's a good pairing  IMO
and it compares well with the uber clean studio interfaces here in the other room up to a point where it starts distorting but it can go louder also ...a lotta bang for the $. 
 
 
...for example by _professional design_ my *THX pm3 Certified* reference 2.1 audio system power  amp we chose is rated at 850 Wpc RMS to feed my THX pm3 certified professional large midfield  12" 3 way *JBL's* that probably can use half of that tops or much less usually but that combo  can make a snob audiophile cry in a good room especially with the two powered reference subs in there but it was many $$$$  thousands with all the studio gear,Midi controllers a stout  PC and d/GPU and production software and VST's  and aside from the gear the dedicated construction for all that  will buy a  nice 3 bd house in some parts of the country . I'm a  believer in amplifier headroom having been an expert enthusiast prosumer for over 40 yrs. and it compared well with the uber clean studio interfaces here . 
 
  
  
  The *Xonar DGX* uses something like* Ti LM4972* op amps  for the frt. panel PC speaker outs . 
*Lastly The  Schiit Magni 2  *is  cleaner than the *Xonar DGX* internal headphone amp at elevated levels ( but not at all immune from distortion ) that could also be partly the phones.
  
 OTOH  All the things like treble ,midrange  extensions  ,resolution,instrument separation ,impact ,clarity  and perceived soundstage etc are a lot better then the *DGX* d/sound card  and it ads a  little extra "pop" for vocals and percussion the the only caveat here is the low bass and impact bass are  lower on the Magni 2 than the Xonar DGX but not a deal breaker at all  so far . 
  
  
 The *Schiit Magni 2* is a lot more powerful than the *Xonar DGX *HP amp at least x2 although I would like maybe a little more low and impact bass at times .
  
 OTOH hand I can see upgrading from the *Magni 2 and my HD280's*  also if it wasn't a large expenditure although some of that legitimate upgrading business can  be $$$$  for the aficionados here .
  
 I'm also thinking of some *Senns HD650 *or something else to use instead of my *HD280  Pros .*
  
*FWIW these are the front panel audio specs in the Asus DGX  PCIe d/soundcard .*
 Setting the DAC's aside they aren't far off from the Schiit Modi 2 audio specs :
  
  
*Asus DGX  PCIe d/soundcard  audio specs *
 Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted) (Front-out) :
 105 dB
 Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted) :
 103 dB
 Output THD+N at 1kHz (Front-out) :
 <0.0025 %(-92 dB)
 Input THD+N at 1kHz :
 <0.0022 %(-93 dB)
 Frequency Response (-3dB, 24bit/96KHz input) :
 10 Hz to 48 KHz
 Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage .
 https://www.asus.com/us/Sound-Cards/Xonar_DGX/specifications/

*Asus Xonar DGX Cirrus Logic  CS4272 DAC  ASIC specs *
  
 D/A Features ! High Performance – 114 dB Dynamic Range – -100 dB THD+N ! Up to 192 kHz Sampling Rates ! Differential Analog Architecture ! Volume Control with Soft Ramp – 1 dB Step Size – Zero Crossing Click-free Transitions ! Selectable Digital Filters – Fast and Slow Roll Off ! ATAPI Mixing Functions ! Selectable Serial Audio Interface Formats – Left Justified up to 24-bit – I2S up to 24-bit – Right Justified 16-, 18-, 20-, and 24-Bit ! Control Output for External Muting ! Selectable 50/15 µs De-emphasis A/D Features ! High Performance – 114 dB Dynamic Range – -100 dB THD+N ! Up to 192 kHz Sampling Rates ! Differential Analog Architecture !Multi-bit Delta Sigma Conversion ! High-pass Filter or DC Offset Calibration ! Low-Latency Digital Anti-alias Filtering ! Automatic Dithering of 16-bit Data ! Selectable Serial Audio Interface Formats – Left Justified up to 24-bit – I2S up to 24-bit System Features ! Direct Interface with 5V to 2.5V Logic Levels ! Internal Digital Loopback !On-chip Oscillator ! Stand-Alone or Control Port Functionality 
 https://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4272_F1.pdf

* Schiit Modi 2 audio specs :*
  
 D/A Conversion IC: AKM4396
 Analog Summing, Active Filtering: Based on AD8616 with precision thin-film resistors and film capacitors.
 Output: RCA (single-ended)
 Output Impedance: 75 ohms
 Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz, +/-0.1dB
 Maximum Output: 1.5V RMS
 THD: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output
 IMD: <0.003%, CCIF, at max output
 S/N: >104dB, referenced to 1.5VRMS, unweighted
 Crosstalk: -80dB, 20-20kHz
http://schiit.com/
  
*Schiit Modi 2 DAC specs *
 D/A Conversion IC: AKM4396
 Analog Summing, Active Filtering: Based on AD8616 with precision thin-film resistors and film capacitors.
 Output: RCA (single-ended)
 Output Impedance: 75 ohms
 Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz, +/-0.1dB
 Maximum Output: 1.5V RMS
 THD: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output
 IMD: <0.003%, CCIF, at max output
 S/N: >104dB, referenced to 1.5VRMS, unweighted
 Crosstalk: -80dB, 20-20kHz
 http://schiit.com/
  
 Sent from Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview Evaluation Copy . Build 14267 rs1-160218-2310


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## preferred user

double post deleted by poster


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## preferred user

uthemus said:


> TBH, I'm ordering the Magni 2 because I can do Schiit like this:
> 
> Hey, I want that Schiit.
> Did you just take a Schiit?  It ******* smells.
> ...


 
 Let us know if you buy the *Schiit * (or whatever ) I got my inexpensive *Schiit ** Magni 2* today and it's a significant upgrade from my inexpensive Asus Xonar DGX Discrete PCIe sound card with a built in headphone amp .........
 I might try the *Schiit Modi 2 or the Modi 2 Uber DAC* also !


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## ScareDe2

I also found that the modi/magni were a bit brighter with lacking bass and spaciousness. That is a crime to pair that with the BeyerDynamic DT700 since what is great about that headphone is the deep bass. I strongly suggest to those who love their dt770 to look for another amp/dac that will show the qualities of your dt770 instead of neutralizing it.


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## ld100

Greatest review ever! I mean it! I wish that all reviews were that clear and concise!


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## mgh24

I must be in a very tiny percentage of users, but my Modi is not recognized by my new PC, so is completely useless.
  
 I started a thread about it, and got help, but there is something strange going on.  Even got a response from another user having the exact same issue.
  
 Unfortunately, not a peep from Schiit when I sent them an email requesting support.
  
 Here is the thread I stared - just as an FYI: http://www.head-fi.org/t/840350/help-with-schiit-modi-drivers#post_13354057
  
 So, I will have to get a different new PC and hope for the best, go back to my old PC (which is where I am at now), or go to O2/ODAC.


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## VicOzzy

30 pages on this thread, half a day reading through it all...
Well, i'm not in the US, so that also helps in my decision of getting the ODAC separately and a kit for the O2 amp (got an old xbox 360 i'm repurposing as an external hub for quite a few things, and the O2 will be built inside).


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## indrakula

VicOzzy said:


> 30 pages on this thread, half a day reading through it all...
> Well, i'm not in the US, so that also helps in my decision of getting the ODAC separately and a kit for the O2 amp (got an old xbox 360 i'm repurposing as an external hub for quite a few things, and the O2 will be built inside).



I thought of sharing my buying experience with Mayflower Electronics. Not professonal at all. I placed an order and 5 min after decided to cancel it but no option online. Hence sent many rnails but they still shipped the product. And i received a wrong item and sent it back. They still chaged 15% re stocking + shipping costs. Paid 299.94 refunded 229.99. During this time, the communication was very bad. They sounded rude and does not care about customers at all. This was my first and last time buy with Mayflower. I should have opted JDS Labs...


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