# 3.5mm and 2.5mm TRRS balanced cable questions...



## nraymond

If a headphone comes with a 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable with a TRRS (Tip-Ring-Ring-Sleeve) end that plugs into the headphone and a TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) end that plugs into the output device, is it safe to assume that the headphone is single-entry balanced capable? An example of this is the PSB M4U 1. It doesn't come with a balanced cable, but the part of the 3.5mm non-mic cable that goes into the headphone is TRRS.

Related to that, with my Onkyo DAP with it's 2.5mm TRRS balanced output, is it safe for me to test headphones that I'm not sure are balanced capable with a TRRS cable, or will I cause problems plugging in a TRRS cable and trying to use a single-entry headphone with balanced output when the headphone might not have balanced input?

Last question - are there any good sources for affordable generic TRRS 3.5mm to 2.5mm cables? It seems like the cheapest option is a 3.5mm to 3.5mm TRRS cable with a 3.5mm to 2.5mm TRRS adapter, and I prefer a solution without an adapter...


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## ostewart

nraymond said:


> If a headphone comes with a 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable with a TRRS (Tip-Ring-Ring-Sleeve) end that plugs into the headphone and a TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) end that plugs into the output device, is it safe to assume that the headphone is single-entry balanced capable? An example of this is the PSB M4U 1. It doesn't come with a balanced cable, but the part of the 3.5mm non-mic cable that goes into the headphone is TRRS.
> 
> Related to that, with my Onkyo DAP with it's 2.5mm TRRS balanced output, is it safe for me to test headphones that I'm not sure are balanced capable with a TRRS cable, or will I cause problems plugging in a TRRS cable and trying to use a single-entry headphone with balanced output when the headphone might not have balanced input?
> 
> Last question - are there any good sources for affordable generic TRRS 3.5mm to 2.5mm cables? It seems like the cheapest option is a 3.5mm to 3.5mm TRRS cable with a 3.5mm to 2.5mm TRRS adapter, and I prefer a solution without an adapter...



You cannot use single ended cables on a balanced output. It may damage your amp.

You would need to make sure your headphone are balanced before going any further.

You can't go balanced 2.5 to single ended 3.5mm.


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## nraymond

ostewart said:


> You cannot use single ended cables on a balanced output. It may damage your amp.
> 
> You would need to make sure your headphone are balanced before going any further.
> 
> You can't go balanced 2.5 to single ended 3.5mm.



Yeah I was afraid of amp damage, so that's good to know. By saying "need to make sure your headphone are balanced" you just mean separated ground wires to the L and R drivers, correct?

I see no reason why I can't go 2.5mm balanced output from an amp to 3.5mm headphone earcup with a proper TRRS cable. For instance, the Sennheiser HD518, HD558, HD569, HD579, HD598, and HD599 can all make use of a straight TRRS terminated correctly:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075C9HXW5/

For the PSB P4U 1, I'd just need TRRS 2.5mm to 3.5mm with a fairly standard 3.5mm (just the shell/jacket around the jack needs to be slim)... as long as the PSB M4U 1 actually has a TRRS socket. And like I said, the bundled OEM 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable is TRS to TRRS, and why would they put a TRRS end on the headphone side if the L and R drivers didn't have separated grounds? (i.e. TRS to TRS would work, but by doing TRS to TRRS it lets the consumer know that the headphone is balanced capable, is my working theory)


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## ostewart

nraymond said:


> Yeah I was afraid of amp damage, so that's good to know. By saying "need to make sure your headphone are balanced" you just mean separated ground wires to the L and R drivers, correct?
> 
> I see no reason why I can't go 2.5mm balanced output from an amp to 3.5mm headphone earcup with a proper TRRS cable. For instance, the Sennheiser HD518, HD558, HD569, HD579, HD598, and HD599 can all make use of a straight TRRS terminated correctly:
> 
> ...



The PSB might not have TRRS for balanced, it might just be for the mic.

You need to make sure that PSB is wired correctly to TRRS balanced.


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## dskelto

Also there are a number of different standards used for wiring the TRRS output.  For Example the A&K 2.5 output is wired Tip R-; Ring R+; Ring L+; Sleeve L-.  This is not compatible with the wiring for the OPPO PM-3 which is wired Tip L+; Ring R+; Ring L-; Sleeve R-.  The new ifi idsd nano has an s-balanced (somewhat balanced) 3.5 output which is compatible with the PM-3 wiring.  Check to ensure that your headphones are wired for balanced vs. Mic; and if balanced ensure that you know that it is in fact compatible with your sources output wiring.


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## dskelto

Here is a graphic:


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## nraymond

dskelto said:


> Here is a graphic:



Ah thanks for that.... it at least gives me some hope that 2.5mm balanced wiring is standardized since I was able to cross-reference it with the Fiio RC-MMCXB cable wiring and see that it matches:

http://www.fiio.net/en/products/58

I have the RC-MMCXB on order with the hope of being able to use it with my MMCX headphones on my Onkyo DP-S1. While I was at it, I also ordered the Fiio F5 earphones, which come with their own balanced cable (2.5mm terminated and presumably the same configuration). While I don't see any mention of the TRRS output configuration is of the Onkyo DP-S1 in the manual or spec sheet:

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/3/1/4/1/2/ONKYO_DP-S1_datasheet_EN.pdf

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/3/1/4/1/2/Manual_DP-S1_EnFrEsItDeNlSv.pdf

The aftermarket balanced cable I purchased for my HiFiMan HE-400i headphones has this list of compatible players: "Astell&Kern AK240 AK380 AK320 onkyo DP-X1 FIIO X5III XDP-300R iBasso DX200". So while it doesn't mention the Onkyo DP-S1, it does mention the DP-X1, and I'd be surprised if the X1 and S1 have different balanced output wiring, so I should be fine with this cable and the Fiio cables and my Onkyo DP-S1.

Maybe I'll reach out to PSB and see if they can tell me how the socket on the headphones is configured. And let me be very clear - the TRRS male jack I was talking about on the OEM cable was on the non-mic cable (it comes with two cables) on the end that goes into the headphones (the other TRS end is a right-angle jack that cannot physically fit into the headphones).


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## Onik

can I use this cable: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-5mm-Tr...552421?hash=item5b5c5beda5:g:Oo8AAOSwKe1dXW4Q

for Astell & Kern Kann to my Tube Amp RCA input?


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## ciber

Where to get a *balanced* 3.5mm trrs cable in USA? I try to order a custom cable similar to below.
Haldane 3.5mm 4pin TRRS Balanced Male to 3.5mm TRRS Balanced Male Hi-End Audio Adapter 7N Silver Plated Cable,


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## nraymond

ciber said:


> Where to get a *balanced* 3.5mm trrs cable in USA? I try to order a custom cable similar to below.
> Haldane 3.5mm 4pin TRRS Balanced Male to 3.5mm TRRS Balanced Male Hi-End Audio Adapter 7N Silver Plated Cable,



What amplifier do you have that outputs a balanced signal over 3.5mm TRRS?


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## kinkling

HifiMan DAPs do


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## Mozbach

dskelto said:


> Here is a graphic:



Hi,
Im fairly new to this and still trying to figure out a few things. This is quite helpful! 

So I'm trying to use the balanced out on my FIIO Q1 MK2, but my headphone cable is terminated with a 3.5 TRRS jack connecting to 2x3.5mm TRS headphone plugs (connecting to L&R drivers). 

Can you help me with a few questions:  

1. Do you know the configuration for balanced out on the FIIO Q1 MK2?
2. Can i re-terminate the 3.5mm TRRS (jack) to a 2.5mm TRRS jack? Will it give me balanced output if i configure it as - Tip: L-, Ring1: L+, Ring2: R-, Sleeve: R+)
3. Does the connections on the jack need to be same configuration for L+,L-, R-, R- as the amp?
4. Can i use a 2.5mm TRRS male to 3.5mm TRRS female convertor/adapter without damaging the amp?

Thanks!!


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## 405292

Hi guys, sorry for barging in but I think I have a similar question and I couldn't find a good answer so far

I want to buy the Fiio BTR5 to use with my FH5 and 6XX. The BTR5 has a 2.5mm balanced connection which outputs more power and most people mentioned that its enough to drive the 6XX.

Now my question is - should I buy a balanced cable for the 6XX that ends with a 2.5mm connection (haven't seen any so far) - or is a 3.5mm to 2.5mm adapted going to work well enough?

I realize that i might be asking a stupid question but this is my first experience with balanced audio and 2.5mm jacks.


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## nraymond

DreaMworX said:


> Hi guys, sorry for barging in but I think I have a similar question and I couldn't find a good answer so far
> 
> I want to buy the Fiio BTR5 to use with my FH5 and 6XX. The BTR5 has a 2.5mm balanced connection which outputs more power and most people mentioned that its enough to drive the 6XX.
> 
> ...



You can't adapt 3.5mm TRS to 2.5mm TRRS because wires have already been joined in the 3.5mm jack. You'll need a new cable. Drop does make a 2.5mm TRRS balanced cable for Sennheiser:

https://drop.com/buy/drop-trrs-headphone-cable-for-sennheiser

Other places like AliExpress stores also sell cables like that for less.


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## Mozbach

nraymond said:


> You can't adapt 3.5mm TRS to 2.5mm TRRS because wires have already been joined in the 3.5mm jack. You'll need a new cable. Drop does make a 2.5mm TRRS balanced cable for Sennheiser:
> 
> https://drop.com/buy/drop-trrs-headphone-cable-for-sennheiser
> 
> Other places like AliExpress stores also sell cables like that for less.


Hi, 
So I have a 3.5mm TRRS ended balanced cable. Can I use it with a 2.5mm TRRS male to 3.5mm TRRS female adapter to use the balanced headphone out on the amp?


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## Laleo

Mozbach said:


> Hi,
> So I have a 3.5mm TRRS ended balanced cable. Can I use it with a 2.5mm TRRS male to 3.5mm TRRS female adapter to use the balanced headphone out on the amp?


I have the same question like you did . Did you find an answer somewhere?


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