# Good Power Cord article from 6 Moons



## Icenine2

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/motek/1.html
   
  Defends the use of better power cords.  No argument from me.  My Shunyata Venom 3 really improved my sound.  Cheap too.  If you go to Galen Audio they even have them on pre-order for $89 (I bought a second one and am on the waiting list because they are back-ordered).


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## googleborg

I use a kettle lead


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## Lenni

good read - no argument from me either -  and I'll refrain to comment further, heh
   
   
  Quote: 





googleborg said:


> I use a kettle lead


 

 time to get some better cord then..


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## Uncle Erik

That "article" is pure nonsense. Which is to be expected from 6moons.

It supposes that power supplies don't exist. A power supply is there to clean the power and make it appropriate to the circuit. If a power cable makes a "difference," then you can assume that the power supply in your equipment was horribly designed. Generally, that is not the case. Good power supply design has been understood for over 100 years.

All you need is:

1. Sufficient power. Sometimes this is a problem if you're running multiple devices on the same circuit.

2. An isolation transformer to kill ground loops.

The rest is snakeoil designed to make money for people who build cables. There isn't anything else that has grounding in reality. It's all about making obscene profits, not making better power.

If anyone disagrees, let's see some measurements.


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## limpidglitch

I'll give the article a 5/10, for comic relief.


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## Lenni

well, compared to most of the comments posted in the "experts" forum, I'd say this article makes a lot more sense to me than most of the nonsense posted there regarding cables.


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## 00940

Admitting for a moment that it was he says is true... how will a $$$ power cable provide more attenuation of HF garbage than a cheap cable with a big ferrite put around it at the amp's end ?


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## cswann1

OMG....*W*hiskey *T*ango* F*oxtrot??
   
  This is hilarious:
   
  "If you put an expensive audiophile power cord somewhere in the power line 100 miles from your home and called your engineer friend (who works for the power company) to run an A/B test with you, you would _never_ hear the difference in your stereo system. However placing the same power cord where it counts—at the last 6 feet—one _will_ hear the difference it makes *because of the effect it has on the high-frequency noise* which was induced into the very end of the line before it had any distance to travel to get attenuated."
   
  Really?? High dollar power cables have noise filters on them?  FANFREAKINGTABULOUS!!  Woohoo.......now where's that credit card?? 
   
  I'm with UE on this.  Audio equipment that's worth more than the case it's in have power supplies that take whatever comes out of your wall and filters and conditions it so that the devices circuit gets exactly what it's design dictates. No more, no less.


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## scootermafia

I definitely would like to see a few more power experts weigh in here.  I'm a bit undecided, but many people swear by power cables as the most important cable in the system.


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## nick_charles

> Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I definitely would like to see a few more power experts weigh in here.  I'm a bit undecided, but many people swear by power cables as the most important cable in the system.


   
   
  I'd want much better evidence than sighted listening tests or manufactuer puff pieces, it would be trivial to measure the FR of a device with two different power cables, yet it has never adequately been done , ever, believe me I've looked high and low for such evidence and any tests published (VD etc) have been highly dodgy
   
  By experts do you mean designers/manufacturers or those who have done empirical experiments on power cables ?
   
  Mnay people (genuinely) believe they will win the lottery


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## IPodPJ

Quote: 





nick_charles said:


>


 

 If I had a proper soundcard, software and cables to test this I would do it in a heartbeat.  I have even posted in the past that if someone cared to loan me the necessary equipment to do so, I would be glad to do this since I have quite a few power cords from quite a few companies at all different price ranges (of course price being insignificant to how it sounds in ones system).
   
  I've heard this from a few people who deal in science, that it could be that the safety ground pin of the power cord is what is causing all of the differences we hear, and there is no other earthly reason a power cord should make any difference whatsoever.  I need to take a cheap power cord, break off the ground pin and try it, then compare it to the power cords I feel perform the best.
   
  Interestingly enough, PS Audio sells power cords where you can unscrew the ground pin for this very reason, but this should not be done if your chassis doesn't meet Class 2 specifications.  If your chassis meets Class 2 specifications, you don't need a safety ground which is why none of the mass consumer gear uses it.  Even though some high-end audio companies make components that comply to Class 2 specs, they still use the standard IEC connector, because it's the "audiophile" thing to do, even though it's anti-audiophile minded.  Sadly, if they don't put a safety ground in there yet it meets Class 2 specs, audiophile consumers will think it's flawed and won't purchase it because they don't know otherwise.


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## fishski13

if someone could explain this paragraph for me:
   
  "This logic is completely flawed because it does not take into consideration what frequencies travel in which way through a wire. Nature determines this, not audiophiles or engineers. In truth the higher the frequency the less distance it travels in a wire. It suffers attenuation along the way. If you don't like it talk to God."
   
  the higher the frequency, the less distance it travels in a wire?  assuming the same amplitude, wouldn't it travel through more copper, and this added resistance causes the attenuation?  claiming that a PC is more expensive with decreasing attenuation?  why would you want more HF hash in your power supply?


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## zenpunk

This article only shows only one thing and that is the author poor grasp of physics and electromagnetism.


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## khaos974

Assuming that various high frequencies have an impact on the sound, which I highly doubt (considering that the power supply's role is to provide clean power for the circuit), why not simply use a low pass filter instead of buying an expensive power cord.
   
  Here your go, first order, passive, low pass filter:simpler and cheaper.
 Actually, your power supply should already have all the necessary filters inside.


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## Uncle Erik

Doesn't anyone understand how a power supply works?

The _entire point_ of a power supply is to clean the power and deliver it to the circuit. If there's a problem with the power, the power supply is engineered to take care of it.

If a cable overrides the quality of a power supply, then that means the power supply was terribly designed.

If you think a power cord "works," then be sure to contact the manufacturer of your equipment to let them know that their design isn't any good. And please pay close attention to their response.


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## khaos974

Good point Uncle Erik. I merely pointed out the absurdity of using a cable to do the job of a filter, no other considerations taken into account.
  Considering the whole picture, it is indeed ridiculous to place a filter before your power supply, I edited my previous post to reflect this.


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## tvrboy

We can put aside the debate over power cords for a moment and all agree that article is not logical. The argument that 100 miles of power lines function as attenuators/filters only holds true if the extra noise was introduced 100 miles away, rather than 1 mile or 20 feet away from the house. So where is the critical point where power lines will magically filter out all extraneous noise? Beyond the last six feet? One mile? 100 miles?


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## ert

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> If a cable overrides the quality of a power supply, then that means the power supply was terribly designed.


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## Turn&cough

I was very skeptical about power cables and the differences they supposedly made in audio applications. I've owned a first generation Shunyata Venom cord for a few years and was never really able to tell the difference between it and a variety of other cords including the ubiquitous Volex and a few other nondescript  ones I had lying around. I basically kept it mostly for its look and figured it couldn't be any worse than a $15 Volex.
  Last weekend I was at an audio dealer and inquired, mostly out of curiosity, about the Venom 3. The sales guy seemed indifferent to it but suggested that I take home a $600 Siltech SPX-20 demo cable "just to try it out"
  I told him I was very skeptical and in any case there was no way that I would even consider forking over 600 bucks for a piece of wire*.* Well it turns out that the SPX-20 made a huge difference in the sound of my EE DAC - way more than any tube rolling could. Sound stage, noise floor, separation and detail were all improved.  This dispels any doubts I had about power cables making a difference. They do!
  Unfortunately in this case while the SPX-20 made everything wide open and crystal clear it also reduced the bass considerably and make my system sound *very thin* - no doubt about it.
*So at least in my system, regardless of price, the $100 Venom and the $15 Volex win hands down.*
  Now that I'm convinced power cables DO make a difference all I need to do is to find one that will make things sound better - hopefully it won't cost $600 either.


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## ert

Quote: 





turn&cough said:


> no doubt about it.


 
  Easily explained by placebo, a scientifically demonstrated phenomenon.  The only thing a cable manufacturer would need to do to demonstrate the existence of cable effects would be to show measurements on the DC side of the supply.  The fact that no such measurements exist and that these measurements are trivial to obtain is enough to show that the whole concept is bogus.


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## Turn&cough

Yeah it must be the placenta effect. Strange that I can't hear it with *certain *tubes or any of the other cables including the Venom. Also strange that *AFTER* trying the Siltech I did a search on the web and discovered that others had experienced the same characteristics.  The placenta works in mysterious ways.


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## Uncle Erik

Turn&cough, what makes you think you're a reliable judge of sound quality?

Try an unsighted test. If you're hearing the difference, you don't need to see the cable.


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## ert

Quote: 





turn&cough said:


> Yeah it must be the placenta effect. Strange that I can't hear it with *certain *tubes or any of the other cables including the Venom. Also strange that *AFTER* trying the Siltech I did a search on the web and discovered that others had experienced the same characteristics.  The placenta works in mysterious ways.


 

 There is substantial scientific evidence showing that placebo can cause a perceived effect.
  There is no scientific evidence showing that a cable will have the perceived effect.
  Occam's Razor.


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## shamu144

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
   
  It is wasting your time trying to convince someone that what he/she is perceiving as a clear improvement is placebo effect. If it doesn't work for you, this is fine by all mean and we will not spend time arguing about it. But for some - me included - power conditioning have become an essential part of their system. Actually, much as the foundation of a house.
   
  Some interesting reading here on power cords: http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html
   
  I do not claim to understand power conditioning, but I know what my ears are telling me. And effects of power cords are not subtle at all and actually IME more pronounced that IC cables. It is nonsense to speculate on what others _should_ ear, but rather keep an open mind and maybe make some great discovery.


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## Happy Camper

We are fools because when we buy anything audio related, our brains are tuning our ears and we are doing this subconsciously. And you think we are nuts? Everyone riding the DBT train has their own experiences in said testing to speak from experience I assume. Too bad the efforts to debate this couldn't be harnessed so it would mean _something_.
   
  How can people have an open discussion about cable experiences without the circular drivel? If my brain were adding bass when I didn't hear it before, great, I'm a mental audio filter able to change my hearing to fit my reality at the time by physical suggestion. I can stop buying gear, use buds for a reference and imagine the beautiful music.
   
  If it were a question of if it does make a difference, prove it, I'd expect to see this stuff. For someone to ask for experiences and be challenged by the stuff is trolling.


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## Happy Camper

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Turn&cough, what makes you think you're a reliable judge of sound quality?
> 
> Try an unsighted test. If you're hearing the difference, you don't need to see the cable.


 


  Isn't this a DBT-free forum to discuss the experiences of cables without being badgered by mods?


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## ert

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> It is nonsense to speculate on what others _should_ ear


 

 I disagree.  There is no scientific theory to indicate a power cable should make a difference.  There are no actual measurements showing that a power cable can make a difference.  Therefore one has to wonder what exactly is causing people to perceive a difference.  I find it a remarkable phenomenon.  If some new technology permits us to measure some unknown properties and shows that there is a difference, I will graciously retract all positions against cables.


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## 00940

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Some interesting reading here on power cords: http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html


 

 There is zero content in there that could be qualified of "interesting". Unless marketing and pseudo technico babble is of interest to some of us. They make claims and do not substantiate those claims in any meaningful way.


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## shamu144

And it is your right to disagree. You might have missed the last part of my sentence though: _"but rather keep an open mind and maybe make some great discovery."_
  
  Quote: 





ert said:


> I disagree.  There is no scientific theory to indicate a power cable should make a difference.  There are no actual measurements showing that a power cable can make a difference.  Therefore one has to wonder what exactly is causing people to perceive a difference.  I find it a remarkable phenomenon.  If some new technology permits us to measure some unknown properties and shows that there is a difference, I will graciously retract all positions against cables.


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## cswann1

One of the often unmentioned fallacies of comparing the "sound" of two or more things is that memories of sounds are impossible to compare to things you are actually hearing.
   
  Granted, you can take two very different sounding things like a Beyer DT990 Pro 80ohm and a Sony MDR-7502 and anyone can easily tell the difference.  And here's definitive and repeatable proof of the large difference.
   

   
  But if you try to hear the difference between two things that may be very subtle, memory does not serve well enough.  If anyone with a "good
  and "bad" sounding power cable would invite a friend over to help you do some blind A/B comparisons you'd see this yourself.
   
  HeadRooms website and FR graph comparison tool is a great asset to folks that want to look beyond marketing hype.  But where are the graphs from cable manufacturers or the retailers that carry them?  I would be willing to make a large bet that such scientific evaluations have been made by those that could make a lot of money showing how superior their product is to the competition in a definitive and repeatable test.  And I'd double that bet that the results showed nothing more than that two different power cables had no effect on sound.


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## fishski13

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> Isn't this a DBT-free forum to discuss the experiences of cables without being badgered by mods?


 

 he's a member first and a mod second.  makes a lot of sense, doesn't it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





?


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## Yoga Flame

I've been wondering. Is the ban specifically on DBT (_double_ blind testing)? Or on anything at all that would be placebo controlled?
   
  And is it just in the cables sub-forum, or throughout the entire site except for the science sub-forum?


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## ert

Quote: 





yoga flame said:


> I've been wondering. Is the ban specifically on DBT (_double_ blind testing)? Or on anything at all that would be placebo controlled?
> 
> And is it just in the cables sub-forum, or throughout the entire site except for the science sub-forum?


 

 Good point.  I think several things are worth mentioning. 
   
  1.  This thread specifically is about an article that generally speaks to the benefits of good power cords and the impact on sound quality.  The article itself was laughable.  In that context, I think all bets are off on the DBT ban because the thread directly opened the debate.  It wasn't simply a thread in which someone gave their impression about a cord in particular.  I think if that were the case, then yes it would would be quite rude to jump in and start a debate.
   
  2.  As a scientist, I believe it is my responsibility to call shenanigans on stuff like this.  I mean no offense to anyone, but the notion of power cords affecting sound quality is in the same realm as homeopathy.  It's really quite nutty.
   
  3.  Lastly, it's not really an issue of DBT yet.  In order for a DBT to come into play, first an actual measurable difference needs to be produced.  Without this, there is no need for DBT discussion.  Only after a measurable difference can be demonstrated would DBT even be considered.  At that point, DBT would help inform us if a difference actually can be heard.


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## vert

I think it's much easier on the wallet if you don't believe or bother with aftermarket power cords.
   
  I know that when I had my Chord dac, I couldn't listen to it with the stock cord. 
   
  I do find it laughable though on audiogon when I see the power cords costing more than components being sold on there.


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## Uncle Erik

happy camper said:


> Isn't this a DBT-free forum to discuss the experiences of cables without being badgered by mods?


It's a legitimate question.

You have to calibrate meters and 'scopes to ensure their accuracy. Why not test humans to ensure their accuracy, too?

If someone claims to hear a difference, it should be controlled for. I think people should be tested with deliberately altered equipment. If someone cannot hear a 1dB difference between channels, for example, then why should their opinion be taken seriously for _unmeasurable_ differences?

As for moderation, I can delete posts, close threads and even ban people. I never have in these debates. I'm not afraid of argument. I don't agree with you, but you're always civil and never cross the line. You deserve to have your say, whether I agree with you or not.

If people assert the unprovable, I'll call them on it. These discussions should be entirely open and uncensored. Everyone should see the argument.

And argument is *not* a personal thing whatsoever. I unquestionably love my cat, even though the little demon thinks she belongs on the kitchen counter.


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## IPodPJ

Quote: 





vert said:


> I think it's much easier on the wallet if you don't believe or bother with aftermarket power cords.
> 
> I know that when I had my Chord dac, I couldn't listen to it with the stock cord.
> 
> I do find it laughable though on audiogon when I see the power cords costing more than components being sold on there.


 

 Although rare, there are certain power cords which when used with certain components make them sound like a component upgrade.
  The only logical thing is that it probably has something to do with the safety ground being a source of noise and some power cords deal with this better than others.
  Other than that there really is no other reason why they should affect the sound quality.  To my ears they usually make a bigger difference than interconnects.
  In many cases though the differences can be minor and written off as placebo.
   
  But as far as the article goes that the OP referenced, well there is not much to say other than


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## dilpal

for attenuation to occur the frequency should be as high as of GHz not in 50 or 60 hz which is frequency of electrical signal.


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## shamu144

Simply because it is too complex to be measured. Perceiving and hearing music is not only related to FR accuracy or HRTF. There is a LOT more to it as you surely know, beeing a trained musician yourself. The point is that it is very seldomly mentioned, when it is probably the most crucial aspect of all this audiophile hobby. The listening experience vary from one single individual to the other, and our level of listening awareness is influenced by multiple factors (musical training, exposure and relation to sounds, defensive listening, etc...). There someone put it in better words than I do: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/listen.htm 
   
  I strongly recommend the reading of this book:
   

   
   
  It is written for musicians but is perfectly indicated for audiophile in seek of their "own sound". It can be a true hear-opener and will give you clues as to why every one of us do have different listening skills and preferences.
   
  So yes, for some, power cords won't make any difference, and for others it can be a make or break listening experience. The point is knowing what matters to YOU and not speculate on what should matter to others, because it is nonsense.
   
  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> You have to calibrate meters and 'scopes to ensure their accuracy. Why not test humans to ensure their accuracy, too?
> 
> If someone claims to hear a difference, it should be controlled for. I think people should be tested with deliberately altered equipment. If someone cannot hear a 1dB difference between channels, for example, then why should their opinion be taken seriously for _unmeasurable_ differences?


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## Uncle Erik

Then how come no one has ever passed an unsighted listening test?


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## IPodPJ

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Then how come no one has ever passed an unsighted listening test?


 

 That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.
  That would give you a pretty definitive answer.


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## shamu144

I think several cable manufacturer (Synergistic Research, Isotek, etc...) are already regularly organizing events in dealer shops to demonstrate the benefits of proper attention to cabling and power conditioning. For me, their is no need to go further than just a little bit of good will and self involvement rather than sistematically calling out the scientist community to elaborate a thesis on a subject with such a limited repercussion. 
  
  Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.
> That would give you a pretty definitive answer.


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## The Monkey

6 Moons sucks.  The linked article does nothing to refute that statement.


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## roadcykler

But unless they have been trained in critical listening or have a "golden ear" (a term I've seen used in Stereophile) how can we be sure they are hearing things properly? The unwashed and untrained masses aren't qualified to make valid, critical (but still subjective) judgments on what they hear. It's best we leave that to the ex spurts who make their living by writing about equipment that "punches out of it's weight class". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.
> That would give you a pretty definitive answer.


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## nick_charles

Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> But unless they have been trained in critical listening or have a "golden ear" (a term I've seen used in Stereophile) how can we be sure they are hearing things properly? The unwashed and untrained masses aren't qualified to make valid, critical (but still subjective) judgments on what they hear. It's best we leave that to the ex spurts who make their living by writing about equipment that "punches out of it's weight class".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## debitsohn

Quote: 





turn&cough said:


> Yeah it must be the _*placenta*_ effect. Strange that I can't hear it with *certain *tubes or any of the other cables including the Venom. Also strange that *AFTER* trying the Siltech I did a search on the web and discovered that others had experienced the same characteristics.  The placenta works in mysterious ways.


 


  awesome.  i dont know about power cables, but i do know that the 8$ power cord i got from amazon searching "hospital grade power cord" is the same i paid 40$ for with a different power cord provider.  same numbers, writing, everything on each cable.


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## ert

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Simply because it is too complex to be measured.


 

 No signal in audio electronics is too complex to be measured.  As far a systems signal measurement, processing and analysis, audio signals are by far some of the simplest things to measure.
   
   
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> For me, their is no need to go further than just a little bit of good will and self involvement rather than sistematically calling out the scientist community to elaborate a thesis on a subject with such a limited repercussion.


 

 There is certainly no good will on the part of the cable manufacturers.  It's simply business marketing.  Yes, the "repercussion" is basically just people getting ripped off and not being physically harmed as through unsafe medicines being sold.  However it's still fraud.  The involvement of the scientific community is exceptionally clear and necessary in this discussion.  You should consider the point of view from someone outside the debate, who may be considering a purchase.  To them, having an objective viewpoint may be useful.  As an example, I have told people shopping in department stores that they can find an HDMI cable online for about $5 instead of paying the absurd prices in the store.  The response is always amazement and appreciation.


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## shamu144

I was actually refering to the human hearing and not audio signal, or rather measuring audio signal processed by our brains.
   
  Quote: 





ert said:


> No signal in audio electronics is too complex to be measured.  As far a systems signal measurement, processing and analysis, audio signals are by far some of the simplest things to measure.


 
    
   

  To be fair, they are many cable manufacturers that do not play a transparent game. But generalization is certainly not true. If you look further, you can find some very usefull information on cables or power cables published by manufacturers, or even easily arrange a meeting with your audio retailer for real life experience and not theory. Why is that you wouldn't trust your own ears. Let them be judge for you. Cables manufacturer certainly have a responsability here to educate us on those very debated topics.
   
  Some examples of interesting reading published by manufacturers:
   
http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf
http://www.furutech.com/news/cables_explained.pdf
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html

  Unfortunatley, the scientific community will not be of any help in this insignificant debate for them, or do you expect to shake the foundation of science by studying the properties of audio cables and their effect on sound. I highly doubt it.
   
  Quote: 





ert said:


> There is certainly no good will on the part of the cable manufacturers.  It's simply business marketing.  Yes, the "repercussion" is basically just people getting ripped off and not being physically harmed as through unsafe medicines being sold.  However it's still fraud.  The involvement of the scientific community is exceptionally clear and necessary in this discussion.


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## InnerSpace

Given the nature, purpose and function of power supplies, believing a power cord will make a difference is roughly the same as believing a CD would sound better if Amazon delivered it by FedEx rather than UPS.


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## The Monkey

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> I was actually refering to the human hearing and not audio signal, or rather measuring audio signal processed by our brains.
> 
> To be fair, they are many cable manufacturers that do not play a transparent game. But generalization is certainly not true. If you look further, you can find some very usefull information on cables or power cables published by manufacturers, or even easily arrange a meeting with your audio retailer for real life experience and not theory. Why is that you wouldn't trust your own ears. Let them be judge for you. Cables manufacturer certainly have a responsability here to educate us on those very debated topics.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ah, so if we just rely on the manufacturers and retailers, we'll get the truth.  Good to know.  Thanks.


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## ert

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> I was actually refering to the human hearing and not audio signal


 
  OK that's fine.  However the audio signal can be measured.  If a measurement on an audio signal shows identical results for two different cables, there is no reason to measure anything beyond that.
   
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Why is that you wouldn't trust your own ears.


 
  Because placebo effect and expectation bias are clearly demonstrated phenomena in the scientific community.  There are thousands of peer reviewed journal articles to support this. We are testing two competing hypothesis.  To support the idea that perceived differences are placebo there is quite a bit of scientific evidence.  To support the idea that perceived differences are due to cable construction there is zero evidence.  The scientific process suggests we must identify the former as the more likely explanation.
  
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Some examples of interesting reading published by manufacturers:


 
   
  There is no information of value in those documents.  The combine generally subjective claims with physical measurements that have no relation to the claims.  They might as well provide spectrometry results of the cable jacket showing how wavelength peaks make their cables better.  It is purely deceptive marketing.  Compare this to the labels on homeopathic products.  They claim that bumblebee dandruff diluted a quadrillion times can cure arthritis because the molecules leave an imprint on the water molecules.  There are plenty of impressive looking claims and pictures that may seem like science to the public.


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## shamu144

Does placebo also apply to headphones, amps & sources, or is it just a limited effect to cables.
   
  Quote: 





ert said:


> Because placebo effect and expectation bias are clearly demonstrated phenomena in the scientific community.  There are thousands of peer reviewed journal articles to support this. We are testing two competing hypothesis.  To support the idea that perceived differences are placebo there is quite a bit of scientific evidence.  To support the idea that perceived differences are due to cable construction there is zero evidence.  The scientific process suggests we must identify the former as the more likely explanation.


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## shamu144

You missed my point. You should rely only on your own assessment and hearing.
   
  Quote: 





the monkey said:


> Ah, so if we just rely on the manufacturers and retailers, we'll get the truth.  Good to know.  Thanks.


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## The Monkey

Then why did you post the links to the misleading pseudoscience spewed forth by the marketing departments of the manufacturers?


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## roadcykler

I think it definitely applies to amps, probably sources and some to headphones. If you compare various headphones on Headphone.com you can see that many of them have very, very similar curves yet people will report they sound much different. How can that be? 
  
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Does placebo also apply to headphones, amps & sources, or is it just a limited effect to cables.


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## shamu144

Because it might give you clues to understand what your ears are telling you. Hey, even children keep asking the whys all day. Why we adult should stop. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  Quote: 





the monkey said:


> Then why did you post the links to the misleading pseudoscience spewed forth by the marketing departments of the manufacturers?


 


 Maybe because there is a little bit more than FR response to explain how the human hearing perceive the sound.
  
  Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> I think it definitely applies to amps, probably sources and some to headphones. If you compare various headphones on Headphone.com you can see that many of them have very, very similar curves yet people will report they sound much different. How can that be?


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## MomijiTMO

I've got some flashy power cables (like a  PS Audio Statement SC) and I started using them for a few weeks now. I cannot hear a difference. I do not have golden ears and my job does not involve any music skills. I can understand a power conditioner but agree with UE in that a decent power supply should tackle the problem anyway.
   
  I'll probably keep them because they make me laugh.


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## ert

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Does placebo also apply to headphones, amps & sources, or is it just a limited effect to cables.


 

 It applies to all components.
  
  Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> Because it might give you clues to understand what your ears are telling you.


   
  My eyes tell me the Earth is flat, yet we can only know it is round by experimentation and reason.


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## 00940

Quote: 





nick_charles said:


> *Sadly merely making a living from doing it is no guarantee that somebody is any good at something, training is however important but proper training needs to be rigorous and when Harman tested different sets of listeners they found that audio retailers did better than audio reviewers but neither group were within a mile of actually formally trained listeners...*


 
   
  Interesting one.
   
  As a side note, I'd be surprised if musicians did any better... Here's a story that happened to me a few weeks back:
   
  A friend of mine is a professional organist and musicology teacher. He recently bought a pair of new Kef speakers (quite nice actually) and so he asked me to come over to hear them. We settle in front of the system, he puts some music on. I let him comment on how nice the setup is. After a few seconds though, he's back commenting the interpretation of the piece. Still, something sounds weird to me. It was so obvious and unexpected that it took me a pair of minutes .. to realize that the left speaker was not making any sound.


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## khaos974

Quote: 





00940 said:


> Interesting one.
> 
> As a side note, I'd be surprised if musicians did any better... Here's a story that happened to me a few weeks back:
> 
> A friend of mine is a professional organist and musicology teacher. He recently bought a pair of new Kef speakers (quite nice actually) and so he asked me to come over to hear them. We settle in front of the system, he puts some music on. I let him comment on how nice the setup is. After a few seconds though, he's back commenting the interpretation of the piece. Still, something sounds weird to me. It was so obvious and unexpected that it took me a pair of minutes .. to realize that the left speaker was not making any sound.


 
  Well, it's a rather annoying fact to audiophiles thata lot of musicians don't care much about sound quality, they care about interpretation, structure, content, 90% of which can be heard through a pair of $50 headphones.


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## moodyrn

No, that is not a fact. I don't even think it's anywhere near the truth. I'm a musician who also have a degree in music. I can't speak for all musicians, but I can't listen to music on crappy sounding speakers or crappy sounding headphones. When I listen to music, there are certain things I'm listening for that you just can't hear on cheap gear. I and most of the musicians I know have invested a lot of money in audio gear. There are other musicians on this forum who have invested far more than I have. Yes I listen for theory related aspects when I listen to music, but I would have to pay far more attention than I would want to if I only had basic gear to rely on. Then it would be very difficult to also enjoy what I was listening to. Musicians in general have the ability to break down a piece of music while still being able to enjoy the piece they were listening to without over analyzing it. That's why to me, there's no such thing as an analytical headphone. I don't have to force myself to only listen to the technicalities and miss out on "enjoying the music"(yes pun intended). So please don't make statements like that about a certain group of people when you really have no clue. Some musicians might not care about good sound. But it's "not" a fact that a lot of them don't.


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## moodyrn

I believe in having power cords other than the stock ones that comes with most gear. I've never bought one, but I've built many. I don't really think they sound any better, many of the cheap stock cords I've had in the past just don't hold up. I've had some that developed shortages, stopped working altogether, and have a problem staying in the socket. I believe in non-stock power cords for one reason and that's build quality. I don't buy the crazy expensive iec connectors. The 20.00 (for the pair)ones off ebay have served me fine. I also don't believe in wire that cost 50.00/ft. All of my power cords have cost me about 30.00 total to build, and if I could do it cheaper than that I would. For me it's about a cord that has good connectors on them that will stay in the socket and not fail over time. I'm not going to ridicule anyone who spends their money on a 500.00 power cord or try to convince them that's a wast of money. One of the things that I find so silly is people arguing over what someone else does with their money. It's their money and I could care less what they spend it on. But as for me, If I want to drop hundreds on an upgrade, you better believe it's going toward better gear.


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## khaos974

I said "a lot", not all musicians, and "a lot" doesn't even mean the majority. If you prefer I could rephrase it as I know several musicians (not professionals) who play in amateur bands and orchestras who tell me taht they don't mind listening to music with ibuds and that amongst their musician friends, the majority is like them.
   
  Or if you prefer, the proportion of audiophiles among musicians is very far from 100%.
  
  Quote: 





moodyrn said:


> No, that is not a fact. I don't even think it's anywhere near the truth. I'm a musician who also have a degree in music. I can't speak for all musicians, but I can't listen to music on crappy sounding speakers or crappy sounding headphones. When I listen to music, there are certain things I'm listening for that you just can't hear on cheap gear. I and most of the musicians I know have invested a lot of money in audio gear. There are other musicians on this forum who have invested far more than I have. Yes I listen for theory related aspects when I listen to music, but I would have to pay far more attention than I would want to if I only had basic gear to rely on. Then it would be very difficult to also enjoy what I was listening to. Musicians in general have the ability to break down a piece of music while still being able to enjoy the piece they were listening to without over analyzing it. That's why to me, there's no such thing as an analytical headphone. I don't have to force myself to only listen to the technicalities and miss out on "enjoying the music"(yes pun intended). So please don't make statements like that about a certain group of people when you really have no clue. Some musicians might not care about good sound. But it's "not" a fact that a lot of them don't.


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## moodyrn

I never said you said "all", and I quoted you as saying "a lot". you also stated it as a fact which it is not. You should have limited it to the ones you know, but you didn't you said a lot of musicians which is musicians as a whole. You didn't limit to the ones you know. And you also didn't limit as non professionals either. So what I was saying holds true. It is "not" a fact. It's just some of the ones you know. And also, I even said that maybe some don't care about the quality of the music they listen to.


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## moodyrn

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Or if you prefer, the proportion of audiophiles among musicians is very far from 100%.


 


  And the proportion of musicians who don't care what the music they listen to sounds like is very, very , very far from a lot.


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