# Modify your Woo 6. .  Sophia and EML 274B . Images pages 32, 33, 34 of int. and ext. and discussion of the SE . . .



## jamato8

While I don't expect this thread to get a great deal of response due to the smaller number of 6's out there in relation to other amps, this amp is well worth working with. 

 The only change I have made so far is to swap out the cathode caps to Black Gate nonpolar 16 volt 470uf (red). The change was larger than I had expected. I have used many types of caps and batteries for bias but this one simple change was the most noticeable I have heard. Why I don't know for sure but I did go from a medium quality cap to a very high one and I changed the capacitance from 220 to 470uf. I have always found 470 to be a standard for cathode bias along with the cathode bias resistor. 

 Transparency improved along with a noticeable increase in stage width and depth. Bass took on a strong controlled quality and mids, the one area I really wanted to see an improvement, took their correct place on stage. Voices of men and women improved and are very realistic.

 ****

 June 8, 

 The further modifications can be found in the threads of this post:
 A pseudo dual power supply was added with nonpolar Black Gate capacitors
 Kiwame resistors are used
 and the power supply is a CR(divided for the dual supply)CRC for the power section of the tube and RCR for the driver section. All capacitors are Black Gate 
 The coupling capacitor is the silver/gold oil .22 capacitor. 


 edit:
 The relative speed of the amp also has increased. There is no smearing of the frequencies with a clean contrast between notes and the rest of the musical spectrum. I am still surprised after many years of working with cathode bypassing that this one small change has made this big of a change. The slight veil that was present is gone.


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## takezo

let's see some pics jamato! 

 i like the way you're taking on this upgrade. one part at a time will
 give better insight as to how significant each upgrade contributes
 to the overall sound...if you have the curiosity, please try out a
 gz30 gt-style mullard...it's my favourite rectifier for the maxed wa6...
 best neutrality, transparency and accurate tone of acoustic instruments...


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## HiGHFLYiN9

Jamato, it took you longer than I expected to crack open your Woo6


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## JZImages

This kind of thread is bad news for my wallet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 First was that other thread, now this one...makes me want to swap some caps out. Only problem I have is I know nothing. I just want to take what I'm hearing with the WA6 at the moment to another level. Been searching for a reputable shop locally to do the work for me, and there's one in my city. So TIA for any questions I'll ask when I'm ready to take the leap.


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiGHFLYiN9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jamato, it took you longer than I expected to crack open your Woo6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Last year was a very difficult and strange one. I got back from China last January and things never went very smooth. Hopefully things will allow for more time to do some mods etc. 

 I have to add that I stress, these cathode caps are important but not just any cap.


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JZImages* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This kind of thread is bad news for my wallet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 First was that other thread, now this one...makes me want to swap some caps out. Only problem I have is I know nothing. I just want to take what I'm hearing with the WA6 at the moment to another level. Been searching for a reputable shop locally to do the work for me, and there's one in my city. So TIA for any questions I'll ask when I'm ready to take the leap._

 

I wasn't totally happy with the sound. I can tell that this amp can be jump started to a much higher level than I suspected. 

 I am going to install not one extra power supply cap but 2 and maybe three. I am going to divide the power to the output tubes, which is a major upgrade.


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_let's see some pics jamato! 

 i like the way you're taking on this upgrade. one part at a time will
 give better insight as to how significant each upgrade contributes
 to the overall sound...if you have the curiosity, please try out a
 gz30 gt-style mullard...it's my favourite rectifier for the maxed wa6...
 best neutrality, transparency and accurate tone of acoustic instruments..._

 

I don't have any of the GZ30 types. I have some varieties of GZ34's (two different metal base) and some others.


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## Bigjppop

Jamato:

 I hope this wouldn't be too much to ask but would you consider a pictorial guide to the mods you're performing? You'd probably get bored because the pics wouldn't have quite the style and flare that the ones in your gallery do (really like some of your stuff by the way), but it would really help us newbies as we consider cracking open our WA6's and embarking on the journey that is DIY mods.

 You and Takezo seem to know A LOT about this amp and I'm sure there are more than just myself that would really appreciate some guidance on this thing.

 Thanks!


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## Ramblingman

I would also be very interested in seeing some pics!


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## jamato8

There is plenty of room to use even stock caps to divide the power supply for each power section of the tube. This is not very expensive and would be an upgrade that Woo Audio would have an easy time of. Right now the two tubes run off of the same cap, which in my opinion, compromises the sound. Such an easy fix.


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## Kahuna

I'll follow suite as well in requesting some pictures of your mod. jamato8 ("stock caps to divide the power supply for each power section of the tube"). Could you list the caps used for this? Thanks, K.


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## jamato8

Well I divided the power supply to the output side of the 6DE7 so that each half has it own supply. I also doubled each cap for the output, which doubles the capacitance of course but also reduces the ESR. I used the stock caps as I have not gone to Black Gates yet. I would like to hear what it is like with stock caps anyway and with some of these modifications which do not cost very much. Now to let it settle in.

 Oh, those who like solid profound bass, well this has it.


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## takezo

nice, looking forward to your impressions on the power supply mod.

 btw, will this config. work too? i'm thinking of implementing two separate
 CRC routes from the rectifier to the output tubes. space will not be an
 issue from what i can see...

 rectifier- cap1 - (1000ohm R)- cap2- output 6de7 left

 """"""""""- cap3 - (1000ohm R)- cap4- output 6de7 right


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## jamato8

Sure but cap 1 and 3 are just paralleled so you double capacitance but nothing more. If you wanted to have more separation you could go to rectifier, CR(split after first R) CRC but I am not sure you would gain much.


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## takezo

i figured starting the parallel run from the rectifier would be better 
 than after the first power filter cap, but i see what you mean...so,
 you'd suggest i run two resistors off the first power filter cap after
 the rectifier? thanks


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## jamato8

Yes, also you do not want too much capacitance for the 1st cap or you will stress the rectifier as a cap looks like a short to ground at first until it is charged. One nice thing about the indirectly heated 34 and others that are indirectly heated is that they bring up the voltage slowly where a directly heated rectifier comes on fairly fast, has to have a small first cap and in my opinion can be a little harder on tubes because they get hit with the full B+ before they have come on totally. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i figured starting the parallel run from the rectifier would be better 
 than after the first power filter cap, but i see what you mean...so,
 you'd suggest i run two resistors off the first power filter cap after
 the rectifier? thanks_


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## takezo

thanks for the insight, john. i completely neglected to consider the
 strain on the rectifier from an increase in the first cap...much thanks!


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## jamato8

Carry Audio used to make a SLA50 stereo amp. I bought one when they first came out in 1990. I upgraded it with their newest output transformers as they came along but anyway what they did was have two rectifiers in parallel but even with them in parallel they still had a 1000uf cap that the rectifiers first had to fill! Well it really stressed rectifiers and I ruined some very good ones because they would arc, which degrades them very fast. So I put in a L90 or was it a CL90, anyway it is a thermistor that with the first current flow heats up and slows the current flow because of the resistance it creates but as the cap is charged and the current slows the thermistor cools and the resistance drops to zero. It saves the rectifiers and slows the B+ some to the other tubes. If I don't need to I prefer not to use the CL90 though.


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## jamato8

More time needed for the caps to form. The bass is very fast, solid and tight but I like it to be a little more organic in nature. It is like a solid state amp right now in the delivery, a good one but I like what is to me, a slightly different presentation. Also my coupling caps need serious upgrading, very serious. 

 Detail and separation is extremely good with dynamics fast and sure.


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## jamato8

Well I doubled the coupling caps by adding another stock .1uf to the .1 that was there, which gives me a combo nearer what I like, which is a normal .22uf. I like the mids better. The new caps are forming well in the power supply and the dual supply to the output tubes does help. I can turn the amp off and it continues to play for about 15 seconds. I would say that is enough reserve while on for some good bass control and good clean DC. I like the sound I am hearing in all areas.

 Next will be to change out the coupling caps to some Mundorf gold and silver .22uf. They are excellent in all areas.


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## PITTM

Are there any Bay Area meets coming up? I live in Santa Cruz and work in Mountain View and I ordered a Woo6 with just the $30 blackgate upgrade last week, should be done in 3 weeks. I would LOVE to hear how much the things you have done improve the sound over a stock unit.


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## jamato8

I almost took a job in Santa Cruz but wasn't crazy about the hospital. I don't know of any meets but then I am not up to speed on them. I love what I am hearing right now. normally I do everything at once or in just a couple of steps so it is nice to hear these gradual changes, for a change.

 I don't want to take the headphones off. I hate it when this happens because I have things to do. Ah music. Interesting how the same music can be so inviting when reproduced so well. Well, here I am. . Well. . . well. got to go. . . well. ... . . . . . . . . . well. . . wel .. . . we. . . . . .w . . . . . .


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## takezo

good to hear you're enjoying the modified unit...i've ordered a power filter cap
 and a couple of the mills resistors via sonicraft. they told me i should get it in
 2-3 days...


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## GordonFreeman

Maybe I should order a Woo 6 and have it shipped to Jamato8 for some mods before I take delivery!?!?!?!?!


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good to hear you're enjoying the modified unit...i've ordered a power filter cap
 and a couple of the mills resistors via sonicraft. they told me i should get it in
 2-3 days..._

 

What coupling caps do you have in yours? The V-caps or something else?


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## takezo

i've used dynamicap, auricap, jensen copper, mundorf silver in oil and v-cap so
 far in my wa6...for my taste, i'd have to say the mundorf and jensen are my
 favorite by a smidgen over the v-cap...the paper in oil caps have a velvety 
 smooth sonic characteristic that's hard to describe with words...here's a poor
 attempt at another analogy: the v-cap present sounds that are ultra clean and
 hard impenetrable surface, like a marble table, with high resolution...
 the paper in oil caps present sounds that are silky smooth with texture that's
 more emphasized than the v-cap, though not as high in resolution, if that makes
 sense...and for that tubey sound, the paper in oil caps seem to have better
 and longer decay than the teflon, especially with vocals and mid bass regions,
 which some like and some don't...

 after the power supply mod, i'm going to roll the caps all over again, just for fun!

 btw, i've been recabling my senn 650 recently and have to admit i've been getting
 some amazing improvement...i think i prefer it over the 701 now...


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i've used dynamicap, auricap, jensen copper, mundorf silver in oil and v-cap so
 far in my wa6...for my taste, i'd have to say the mundorf and jensen are my
 favorite by a smidgen over the v-cap...the paper in oil caps have a velvety 
 smooth sonic characteristic that's hard to describe with words...here's a poor
 attempt at another analogy: the v-cap present sounds that are ultra clean and
 hard impenetrable surface, like a marble table, with high resolution...
 the paper in oil caps present sounds that are silky smooth with texture that's
 more emphasized than the v-cap, though not as high in resolution, if that makes
 sense...and for that tubey sound, the paper in oil caps seem to have better
 and longer decay than the teflon, especially with vocals and mid bass regions,
 which some like and some don't...

 after the power supply mod, i'm going to roll the caps all over again, just for fun!

 btw, i've been recabling my senn 650 recently and have to admit i've been getting
 some amazing improvement...i think i prefer it over the 701 now..._

 

I have long liked the Mundorf silver supreme. I understand the gold and silver oil have a slightly higher resolution. I use the Mondorf in my speaker crossover and have used them in amps etc. 

 I think the Audio Note copper and oil are a little better than the Jensen. I am debating between the silver and gold Mundorf or the silver.


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## takezo

yes, i really like the mundorf caps and i got them cheaper than the jensen copper thru soniccraft...
 soniccraft is having a special on mundorfs right now and seem to be 10 -20%
 cheaper on mundorf caps than partsconnexion at the moment on film caps...they
 dispatch rather quickly too...they don't carry the silver/gold/oil caps though...


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, i really like the mundorf caps and i got them cheaper than the jensen copper thru soniccraft...
 soniccraft is having a special on mundorfs right now and seem to be 10 -20%
 cheaper on mundorf caps than partsconnexion at the moment on film caps...they
 dispatch rather quickly too...they don't carry the silver/gold/oil caps though..._

 

It is the silver and gold oil cap I would really like to try. I have used the silver Mundorf and they are very good and perform above their price. 

 The power supply modification is doing very well and really changes the complexity of music that the amp can handle, like nothing is too complex or difficult. The bass is really well controlled and solid.

 Oh, and the openness and transparency of well recorded music is . . . well you'll find out.


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## takezo

took me a couple of hours to desolder and redo the power supply but here's
 my messy result:











 i'm listening to the wa6 as i type and i can't put my finger on it, but it seems
 different to me...i think i have to let it burn-in and settle a bit before i try to
 figure out what's different and how...my 650 sounds different...


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## jamato8

Well right off I didn't like mine but it takes a while for the caps to form and you have Black Gates, which take some time for really form. 

 What do you think now? :^)

 Did you measure the B+ on the output section? It should be around 180 volts. What is the voltage to the input section of the tube on the plate?

 I have some Mundorf Silver and Gold oil caps coming. Should be interesting.


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## takezo

hey jamato, unless my methods are off i'm getting approx. 178for
 the B+ at the output pin 8 section...

  Quote:


 What is the voltage to the input section of the tube on the plate? 
 

do you mean the input pin 2? if so, it's the same...


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## jamato8

The B+ on the power section of the 6DE7 is much higher than the input section triode. Pin one is 180 volts or so, give or take some and pin 6 will be around 80 volts. When you look at the bottom pin one is to the left of the gap and you go clockwise when looking from the bottom starting at one and ending up at pin 9 on the right of the opening between the pins.


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## takezo

gotcha...i'm using a pair of the 6ew7 and they measure 158 and 64 vdc...
 i really should've measure before the mod, but i wasn't thinking...
 i'll try the 6de7 at another time...

 so far, i've got 5 hrs. on the new cap and i'm liking what i'm hearing.
 the sound seems more expansive and complex or heavy passages
 seem to be carried out effortlessly...very impressive for what i
 thought was a simple mod...at hour 2, i heard some compression
 in the sound but now it's very sweet...talk about fluctuations...
 i hope it's not another 700 hrs. for this single cap...


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## jamato8

I don't think it will be near that long. I am looking forward to using the silver and gold Mundorf oil. I still have the stock .1uf caps, which I doubled but the Mundorfs should be quite step up. I also ordered some Black Gates for the power supply but will let the Mundorfs settle in first to see what the sound is like.


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## takezo

LOL, i'm gonna have to try those out too...if it sounds anything
 like the silver in oil, it's a keeper...


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## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_took me a couple of hours to desolder and redo the power supply but here's
 my messy result:











 i'm listening to the wa6 as i type and i can't put my finger on it, but it seems
 different to me...i think i have to let it burn-in and settle a bit before i try to
 figure out what's different and how...my 650 sounds different..._

 

Damn, now I might do this mod too


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## takezo

it's been over 75 hrs since the power supply mod and i have to admit,
 it's the best my wa-6 has sounded...i'm dumbfounded to think such
 a simple mod can have this much effect in the sound. 

 one thing i noticed immediately after the mod was the ease with
 which the sound is presented compared to the sound prior to the
 mod...this is what i hear with the mpx3 slam se...but the mpx3
 has slightly less resolution than this modded wa6...my mpx3 has
 the jensen pio cap and i think this may be holding back the resolution...

 on the modded wa-6 the bass is the most detailed and tightest
 i've yet heard thru this amp... the entire range of audible freq.
 seems to be even more transparent now mainly due to an increase
 in the perception of the separation of notes...i'm hearing more
 information from each instruments not because they sound louder
 or clearer, but because each note and instrument seems to be
 farther apart from each other...that's what sounded so different 
 to me initially but i couldn't grasp why until more careful listening...

 my senn 650 sounds like a different headphone... so much more
 involving now...


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## jamato8

Yep, glad you are enjoying it. I have done this type of pseudo dual power supply for years. i even use it on my The Elaborate Dac that I built and have heard nothing like it. 

 Easy, makes sense and best of all, it works. Waiting for the silver and gold Mundorfs, Yeah baby, yeah. . . :^)


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## jamato8

I do notice better dynamics, to the point I don't have to turn the volume up as much. Micro and macro dynamics come through better with crisp definition. Interesting. I am listening to a NOS 1956 Philips Minniwatt metal base and it does sound different from my 1957 metal base. The construction is a little different. Well back to the music and studying critical care.

 Listening to some well recorded classical music really allows the amp to shine. Very nice depth and beautiful strings. The hall sound, upper bass and resonant qualities are very convincing.


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## takezo

shostakovichs' 11th by stokowski and the HSO is breath-taking on this
 amp now... orchestral works was the only thing the maxed 
 wa6 was behind in compared to the mpx3 slam se, but now it's
 no longer the case...

 the v-cap is has so much more resolution than the jensen pio...
 i want to change it to a mundorf silver or the silver/gold/oil but
 don't want to void mikhails' 5 yr. warranty...


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## HeadphoneAddict

So, Jam, I am totally ignorant of everything I've read in this thread. 

 I am assuming my 08/07 built WA6 (with all the upgrades, vcaps and blackgates) doesn't incorporate any of what you've done, and I wonder if Jack is aware of the impact these mods have on improving the sound? And, if so, is he willing to do these mods to our amps for us?

 I haven't written to him about it, because I am still not quite sure what the mods are, or how to describe them to him. What do you advise? Reply here or PM is fine.

 Thanks!


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, Jam, I am totally ignorant of everything I've read in this thread. 

 I am assuming my 08/07 built WA6 (with all the upgrades, vcaps and blackgates) doesn't incorporate any of what you've done, and I wonder if Jack is aware of the impact these mods have on improving the sound? And, if so, is he willing to do these mods to our amps for us?

 I haven't written to him about it, because I am still not quite sure what the mods are, or how to describe them to him. What do you advise? Reply here or PM is fine.

 Thanks!_

 

I have kept him abreast of what I have done and the changes. All you have to do is mention the pseudo dual power supply and he will know. Also the 470uf cathode bypass caps.


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have kept him abreast of what I have done and the changes. All you have to do is mention the pseudo dual power supply and he will know. Also the 470uf cathode bypass caps._

 

Jamato....without bothering Jack with another of my e-mails, did it sound like this was something he'd do at our request? He's building me a max'd 6 right now, and this improvement has me intrigued.


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## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jamato....without bothering Jack with another of my e-mails, did it sound like this was something he'd do at our request? He's building me a max'd 6 right now, and this improvement has me intrigued._

 


 The other day Jack told me that the power supply splitting mod jamato is talking about is experimental and he will not do it.

 "The power supply dividing mod is experimental as suggested. I would not feel comfortable to offer this mod unless we have tried it."

 My woo is being built this week so I guess not.


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The other day Jack told me that the power supply splitting mod jamato is talking about is experimental and he will not do it.

 "The power supply dividing mod is experimental as suggested. I would not feel comfortable to offer this mod unless we have tried it."

 My woo is being built this week so I guess not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Thanks for the info PITT. It certainly makes sense on his end. It's his reputation that goes into every amp, and he'll obviously need to feel confident with it before selling them this way.

 From the looks of things, there's quite a few Woo6 owners within a scant few hours of one another in this thread.


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## jamato8

Well I know that he will be using it.


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I know that he will be using it._

 

Maybe sometime I can drive the amp, the necessary parts, and some cash over to the Sonoma area and leave it with you......then dinner at the restaurant of your choice is on me when I come back to pick it up??


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## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe sometime I can drive the amp, the necessary parts, and some cash over to the Sonoma area and leave it with you......then dinner at the restaurant of your choice is on me when I come back to pick it up?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Probably could be worked out.


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## PITTM

Yeah, I imagined it would be something he would offer in the future, but I didn't want to wait too much longer(I;ve now been told my amp is shipping next week !!) and so I ordered it straight away. Man I would take you anywhere outside of French Laundry if you did that mod for me!! Maybe the three of us can meetup sometime.


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## JZImages

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably could be worked out._

 

I never noticed you were in Santa Rosa. Now that's bad news for me if you're willing to do these services for a fee.


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## Vaughn

I am unfamiliar with this amp, but looking at the photos on the website it
 appears that the output is transformer coupled. Is this the case?


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## Kahuna

You are correct.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vaughn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it appears that the output is transformer coupled. Is this the case?_


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## takezo

john, it's been approx. 100 hrs. since the power supply mod. and
 i'm convinced this is the single most significant mod/upgrade i've
 applied to the wa6...all the other upgrades have made noticeable
 improvements in transparency, soundstage, low level resolution,
 tone and dynamics, but this power supply mod has taken the
 maxed wa6 to a completely different level...i'm not certain if this
 is from the power supply mod alone or a combination of the prior
 upgrades and the power mod...

 everything sounds so realistic and expansive...i'm amazed at how
 open and transparent acoustic instruments sound and more
 impressed at how effortless and unfettered everything sounds now...
 even hard driven and heavy passages seem to be done effortlessly...
 the bass and mid bass have so much more weight to the notes
 without sounding heavy nor soft...the mids are lucid yet full...
 the highs don't sound edgy nor display that sibilant sharpness
 when crescendos are reached...that digital sound is absent...drums
 and high hats sound convincingly realistic...nothing sounds
 artificially compressed...i think i'm finally hearing what the source
 is really like...

 once jack and his partners test and confirm your power mod
 as a significant improvement, and more importantly that it's safe,
 the stock wa6 should be changed to this configuration...i'm not an
 engineer so i'll leave the empirical testing to them, but i haven't 
 noticed any anomalies in the rectifier, power/drive tubes yet...
 no over-glow nor heating has been observed so far...and yes,
 the sound is getting better each day, it seems...


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## jamato8

It draws the same amount of mA. 

 It is simple, when you have two tubes fighting for the same current what is going to happen? Now add a cap for each tube and a resistor before that cap so that in a way each tube can not "see" the other supply or pull current from it and now you have a good supply for each tube which improves all areas, as you have noticed. I have done this for years. I have worked with tubes for many years and spent way too many hours experimenting but it has led to some good conclusions and some meaningful topology applications that improve sound.


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## PITTM

damn you guys,

 I finally cracked today and decided to get v-caps in my new woo 6, just before jack started the build. Hope it sounds good, not that I have a stock one to compare it to or anything. It will be a "stock" WA6 with just the v-caps and no blackgates.


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## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_damn you guys,

 I finally cracked today and decided to get v-caps in my new woo 6, just before jack started the build. Hope it sounds good, not that I have a stock one to compare it to or anything. It will be a "stock" WA6 with just the v-caps and no blackgates._

 

if budget allows, you should go for the cathode bypass black gate upgrade too,
 the one for $30...even better yet, ask him to use the N-series 470 microfarad
 black gate caps instead...though it'll cost you double...jamato noticed a
 significant improvement over the stock cathode bypass caps...


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## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_damn you guys_

 

.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Might as well just get all the upgrades and eat ramen noodles for the next two months


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Might as well just get all the upgrades and eat ramen noodles for the next two months 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 That's what I did. I e-mailed Jack two days ago and added the DACT to my WA6. So now it is REALLY max'd.

 Oh, that afternoon I went to Sams Club and bought a case of ramen as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...and meeting up with you NorCal guys sometime would be great


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## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what I did. I e-mailed Jack two days ago and added the DACT to my WA6. So now it is REALLY max'd.

 Oh, that afternoon I went to Sams Club and bought a case of ramen as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...and meeting up with you NorCal guys sometime would be great_

 

personally, i think the dact attenuator is overkill for an amp that's not a high
 gain type...save the money and get the power supply done by jack. it works
 and is the biggest upgrade that i've done myself to date. it shouldn't cost more
 than $50 in parts...


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_personally, i think the dact attenuator is overkill for an amp that's not a high
 gain type...save the money and get the power supply done by jack. it works
 and is the biggest upgrade that i've done myself to date. it shouldn't cost more
 than $50 in parts..._

 

I was under the assumption that Jack isn't ready to do the power supply mod of Jamato's yet. If he is, I'd have him do it in a heartbeat. My guess is that my amp is a week away from being completed. I'm not lacking for funds, that isn't a problem.

 Can someone confirm he'll do the mod? I'd hate to bother the poor guy again.


----------



## PITTM

thats the thing, i have lots of money now since im being paid well with my full time post college job...

 however i start school in august and need to save some $$$!!


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ My guess is that my amp is a week away from being completed. I'm not lacking for funds, that isn't a problem.

 Can someone confirm he'll do the mod? I'd hate to bother the poor guy again._

 

What date did you order yours? I ordered March 27 and he said he would begin work on it either Friday or early next week. 2/4 upgrades aint bad. The stepped attenuator seems like huge huge overkill.

 The email to me where he said he wouldn't do the mod because it's experimental was sent in the last 4 days. I can't imagine things have changed since then.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What date did you order yours? I ordered March 27 and he said he would begin work on it either Friday or early next week. 2/4 upgrades aint bad. The stepped attenuator seems like huge huge overkill.

 The email to me where he said he wouldn't do the mod because it's experimental was sent in the last 4 days. I can't imagine things have changed since then._

 

I ordered my amp on March 20th. He said it would take 4 weeks, give or take.

 I really would like to have this power supply mod done, whether by jack, or jamato...if he's willing.


----------



## jamato8

Listening to Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms, and the bass is finally where I want it, solid, defined and into my shoulders. Such ease of presentation. Sometimes I hear distortion and then I realized after trying other amps and listening more closely, it is the recording! High definition has its plusses and minuses? :^) This is all with the stock coupling caps. Tomorrow the Silver and Gold Mundorf oil caps arrive. Should be interesting after they break in. 

 I am finding the bass more visceral like that of speakers although speakers move the air in a way headphones can not but the overall quality and excitement is extremely good, well excellent.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Listening to Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms, and the bass is finally where I want it, solid, defined and into my shoulders. Such ease of presentation. Sometimes I hear distortion and then I realized after trying other amps and listening more closely, it is the recording! High definition has its plusses and minuses? :^) This is all with the stock coupling caps. Tomorrow the Silver and Gold Mundorf oil caps arrive. Should be interesting after they break in. 

 I am finding the bass more visceral like that of speakers although speakers move the air in a way headphones can not but the overall quality and excitement is extremely good, well excellent._

 


 Man, keep this up and you'll be seeing my WA6 REAL soon.


----------



## jamato8

Well a long day in ICU and I have to get up at 330 in the AM but I had to put the silver and gold Mundorfs in. Man do they sound bad, bass soft and distortion, oh wait, they need time. :^)

 Well just an hour and they are clearing up but it will be much more time, many more hours, many but the sound is already big and the stage is expansive. We shall see. 

 I have the Black Gate caps for the power supply but one thing at a time.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had to put the silver and gold Mundorfs in. Man do they sound bad, bass soft and distortion, oh wait, they need time. :^)_

 

You went for the silver/gold & oil at $60+/each ? 

 I will try them eventually, but I can see silver/gold & oil having tough competition from the 1/2 priced silver/oil, just like the non oil silver/gold.

 Heck, the $8 Mundorf Zn gives them all tough competition..


----------



## jamato8

The silver and non oil doesn't seem that well received. I have used the silver and oil for years and wanted to go for their best, why not?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Don't forget a string of pearls around the tubes


----------



## jamato8

I don't need no stinkin pearls, I hold dem wit me fingas.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, then put diamonds on it to go with all that gold and silver. A diamond studded WA6 will make the front pages at www.iwanttobejustlikepuffdaddy.com


----------



## jamato8

I have heard changes with coupling caps but the organic grasp of the music with these yet to be broken in Munorf silver and gold oil caps is excellent. Another layer of separation of the music is peeled away.

 Oh, the caps size I used is the .22uf. I normally use a .22 as a coupling cap as I find it for many purposes to work the best.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have heard changes with coupling caps but the organic grasp of the music with these yet to be broken in Munorf silver and gold oil caps is excellent. Another layer of separation of the music is peeled away.

 Oh, the caps size I used is the .22uf. I normally use a .22 as a coupling cap as I find it for many purposes to work the best._

 

That's good news. Later on, maybe you can switch in some silver/oils and let us know the differences...?


----------



## jamato8

The silver and oil I have are in storage in Tucson, AZ so I don't think I will most likely be doing that. The tinfoil caps from Mundorf also look interesting and as you mention, they are a very good price.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The silver and oil I have are in storage in Tucson, AZ so I don't think I will most likely be doing that. The tinfoil caps from Mundorf also look interesting and as you mention, they are a very good price._

 

I am very torn about the Mundorf Zn. It is such a great cap, yet it's kind of like that technically perfect young genius violinist who doesn't quite have the soul of a master. I updated my cap shootout with the Zn at the end...

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/or...thread-284863/


----------



## Roam

I'd like to direct your attention to the 5AR4 rectifier tube datasheet, which can be found here(PDF file). Note the maximum ratings, specifically the rating for maximum capacity with a condenser input filter. This number is 60uF. In other words, with a capacitor input filter, which is what the Woo 6 uses, the first capacitor following the rectifier may not exceed 60uF. Any larger and it exceeds the maximum ratings of the rectifier tube, which leads to shortened tube life and possibly arcing. It's also why the rectifier tube seems to have a lot of effect on the sound from what owners are reporting, the tube is being heavily stressed and only the best ones are holding up to the abuse. This blatant design mistake needs to be corrected unless you have too much money or enjoy burning through rectifier tubes.

 Fix the circuit first, then go play around with premium boutique parts, not the other way around.


----------



## jamato8

Your concern is valid but in practice there aren't many designers who have followed this very closely, so Woo can't be faulted in a way. Cary Audio had 1000uf behind 2 GZ34's in their SLA50 and a good GZ34 would and does last for years in the circuit. Now directly heated tubes that come up to rectification fast do fail but not the indirectly heated GZ34's. 

 Turn the Woo 6 on and meter the DC as it comes up and has to fill the caps. It takes a good 15 seconds or maybe a little less. Now that is a slow ramp up of the voltage, which is great for the tubes (6DE7) getting the DC as their heaters are also coming on and the tube is not being hit with a lot of current all at once. Also the cap following the GZ34 can only be filled as the tube comes up to spec and it doesn't matter if it has 10 volts or 50 as it ramps up the cap is still being charged so since the 34 comes up slow it really isn't being stressed all that much. Also once everything is up and running there is no stress and it doesn't matter about the size of the cap as it is now charged (within reason). Is 60uf or less ideal, sure but remember the manufacture was also trying to be conservative. For something like the 274B you would need to change the circuit to a 8 or less uf cap as it is directly heated and is known to be a more easily stressed rectifier. So my experience over the years has shown that the GZ34 will be and is fine in this circuit but that the directly heated tubes will be a little more effected.

 Changing this to a 8uf cap followed by 100ohms and then to the caps would work fine and would be very easy to do. The initial current would be slowed by the 100 ohms, as in a CL90 thermister, which is what I put in the Cary Audio amp so I could use directly heated rectifiers. The following resistor would then be decreased. You might even want to use 800 ohms for each side of a dual power supply or a 400 or 450 in a stock type configuration. The 6DE7's can take more voltage than what they are getting so a smaller power dropping resistor might not be bad. With a 8uf cap as the first one you could use any rectifier that would spec ok for the circuit needs like the 274B from Sophia.


----------



## Roam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your concern is valid but in practice there aren't many designers who have followed this very closely, so Woo can't be faulted in a way. Cary Audio had 1000uf behind 2 GZ34's in their SLA50 and a good GZ34 would and does last for years in the circuit._

 

This is why I maintain that the vast majority of "designers" are hacks, they can't even read and follow a manufacturer datasheet.

  Quote:


 Now directly heated tubes that come up to rectification fast do fail but not the indirectly heated GZ34's. 
 

They all fail. Think about what happens in a momentary power interuption lasting maybe one to five seconds. The capacitors discharge yet the rectifier tube(s) are still hot, when the power comes back on it arcs over and fries.

  Quote:


 Turn the Woo 6 on and meter the DC as it comes up and has to fill the caps. It takes a good 15 seconds or maybe a little less. Now that is a slow ramp up of the voltage, which is great for the tubes (6DE7) getting the DC as their heaters are also coming on and the tube is not being hit with a lot of current all at once. Also the cap following the GZ34 can only be filled as the tube comes up to spec and it doesn't matter if it has 10 volts or 50 as it ramps up the cap is still being charged so since the 34 comes up slow it really isn't being stressed all that much. Also once everything is up and running there is no stress and it doesn't matter about the size of the cap as it is now charged (within reason). 
 

Wrong. Rectifier tubes do NOT deliver a steady state DC current when they're on, they deliver a spike of DC for the portion of the AC cycle where the voltage coming out of the rectifier exceeds the stored voltage in the capacitor. With a C-input filter there's a sharp current spike lasting anywhere from a few milliseconds to a few dozen milliseconds depending on the DCR of the transformer, the internal resistance of the rectifier, and the size and ESR of the input capacitor. With a full-wave rectifier, this happens 120 times every second. Which brings us to the next rating, Maximum Peak Current, in this case 750mA. This is the maximum current which can be allowed to flow on each AC cycle, given the size of the capacitors in the Woo 6 this rating is most likely being exceeded, and with low ESR Blackgates it's almost certainly exceeded.

 To simplify a bit, the larger the input capacitor is, the shorter the current spike will be and the larger the current flow. Lowering the ESR of the capacitor has the same effect. This is how the manufacturer derived the maximum recommended capacitor size, if the cap is larger 60uF, the peak current flow will likely exceed the 750mA rated maximum given typical transformer and capacitor characteristics.

  Quote:


 Is 60uf or less ideal, sure but remember the manufacture was also trying to be conservative. For something like the 274B you would need to change the circuit to a 8 or less uf cap as it is directly heated and is known to be a more easily stressed rectifier. So my experience over the years has shown that the GZ34 will be and is fine in this circuit but that the directly heated tubes will be a little more effected. 
 

Design center ratings are conservative but that's no excuse to use a 330uF cap when the recommended maximum is 60uF, it's more than 5 times larger. Design center means you can push the specs around 10-20% at most with reasonable safely, not 500%.


----------



## jamato8

I know it doesn't deliver a constant DC or there would be no need for smoothing. It is a saw toothed type of DC but I don't feel like getting into all the fine specs. I have designed and built amps for years. We can agree to disagree. In practice the GZ34 is working as intended in the circuit. Few things in life are ideal. Again in practice I have seen and used a GZ34 in a 500uf cap following the GZ34 with no ill effects and no arcing. Does it arc directly heated rectifiers sure but then I don't normally use them in the circuit. Would I design my own circuit with a 10 or 20uf cap followed by a resistor? No, I would go directly into an inductor, then to the cap, which is what I do. I will take inductors any day. If there was room I would have the circuit as a LCRCR or a high current L for the last R but that is not practical due to size of a large current L for most home applications due to weight and size.


----------



## takezo

i may be mistaken but the vast majority of tube specs were
 done for high gain, high voltage speaker amps...the wa6 is neither...

 and in practice, i've yet to experience an arc or a fried rectifier...
 even during a black out...of course, the lights didn't come back
 for about 10 minutes...i don't doubt for a second that a tube 
 can fry if pushed intentionally, but in common use it hasn't come
 up as an issue, yet.. 

 my burn in rectifier is the rca 5r4gy which has a recommended input
 cap specified at 4 uF...it measured 56/51 when i first purchased
 it...after 2000 hrs. and countless on and off operation i measured
 it today to see how it's changed...it tests as 54/51...oh, it's an 
 indirect type...the 5u4g and the 274b are the only rectifiers
 that i know of that are directly heated...

 i should specify, the first cap, a black gate, is a 150 uf/350v...


----------



## jamato8

Actually high gain doesn't effect anything when rectifying. What you have is a circuit. There are parameters within that circuit and even if the amp or preamp, or dac or whatever circuit has demand of the rectifier, whether that is a solid state or tube, the demand when the circuit is activated will be the same for a given current demand. I had a preamp with series 6X4's (in series for a higher voltage capability) but the current demand due to too large of caps, would shorten their life. I implemented resistors in the line right after them to change this. Also the amount of demand from the circuit is also a factor and with the 6 there isn't that much of a draw, maybe around 90Ma total from the 6DE7's. 

 The best thing for the rectifier would be a small cap to a resistor of around 100 ohms and then on to the rest of the circuit. In practice I believe the circuit will and is fine but I agree with Roam that many circuit disregard the specs at the cost of a shorter life for the rectifier. It is an easy fix and easy design to implement but why often ignored I do not know. I think one reason is for a fast rectification to a smooth DC with as little parts as possible.


----------



## takezo

thanks for the insights, both of you gentlemen...

 john, have you inquired jack as to why he's using a 330uf for the
 first cap on the stock wa6? roams' post raises an interesting Q as
 to why woo audio is doing this on the stock unit...


----------



## jamato8

I make different inquires. In the early life of tubes, 1930-1950 (1940 and 1950's the best years of tubes), often designs stayed within limits because it was part of what designers just "knew". They were steeped in this. I have a friend who worked for RCA and designed tubes. He has several patents and of course is long retired but he "knows" tubes like we breath air. Now tubes are are implemented but working knowledge is often different from then.


----------



## Roam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The best thing for the rectifier would be a small cap to a resistor of around 100 ohms and then on to the rest of the circuit. In practice I believe the circuit will and is fine but I agree with Roam that many circuit disregard the specs at the cost of a shorter life for the rectifier. It is an easy fix and easy design to implement but why often ignored I do not know. I think one reason is for a fast rectification to a smooth DC with as little parts as possible._

 

It might be fine due to the internal resistance of the rectifier and the DCR on the transformer combined with the fact that the ratings are on the conservative side, however, it is by no means an ideal situation. There's the shortened tube life which I mentioned, but perversely enough a larger faster capacitor can actually generate _more_ noise since it shortens and sharpens the top-up current spike near the peak of each AC cycle. There's less ripple & hum but more high frequency hash, and that noise is not easy to filter.

 As for why so many manufacturers do it, it comes down to cheapness & ignorance. It's cheaper to upsize a capacitor than to add another stage of RC filtering. It's why LC filters are almost non-existent. Good design rules have been forgotten and lost for the most part. Audio has mostly become a style over substance business, people don't really care about nor understand good design, but they'll respond just like Pavlov's dogs when "more & bigger" "Blackgate" or "Teflon caps" are mentioned.

 Thankfully there's still people like John Atwood (Artemis Labs) and Allen Wright (Vacuum State) who still design equipment the proper way. Once in a blue moon a good design also pops up in the headphone world, such as the Moon Audio Luna or Trafomatic Head One. Unfortunately, good designs are very few & far between.


----------



## jamato8

I have around 30 hours on the Mundorf silver and gold and oil and they have turned dull. I am having to use my Ultrasone 780's as they are brighter in sound than my other headphones. That is ok, I expect this as the caps form. At 3 hours they gave a glimpse of the sound to come and it was good but then I am hoping, aren't I. ? :^)


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have around 30 hours on the Mundorf silver and gold and oil and they have turned dull. I am having to use my Ultrasone 780's as they are brighter in sound than my other headphones. That is ok, I expect this as the caps form. At 3 hours they gave a glimpse of the sound to come and it was good but then I am hoping, aren't I. ? :^)_

 

I usually cook my caps for a week before installing, but the one time I didn't was with Mundorf silver/gold (non oil). It did turn dull for a while before coming back in full force, so I wouldn't worry...yet


----------



## jamato8

Yeah I am not worried. I am very used to this happening.


----------



## jamato8

Ok, the sound is coming back but needs some smoothing but the quality is returning and the details are there. A little closed in right now but not concerned. I am very curious how these silver and gold play out. The 6 with the split power supply would seem to be a player in the big league.


----------



## takezo

i'm wondering why jack hasn't adopted this mod on the stock wa6 yet...
 it's funny how they're so liberal with the first cap specs, yet so cautious
 with this most significant modification...prior upgrades have opened the window
 to the source wider but this mod has knocked downed the wall...


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm wondering why jack hasn't adopted this mod on the stock wa6 yet..._

 

So John can make some nice coin modding all of ours. LOL

 I'm first in line when he has it all worked out. Can't wait. I love wringing out every bit of transparency I can.

 Keep us all updated guys...


----------



## jamato8

I think I will change mine to a 8uf input (I wish there was room for an inductor but there will be one coming) and divide off of that for the input and power section. That way I can use any rectifier. Resistors also work good at decreasing the ripple. Something like a 200ohm after the 8uf to the first larger cap and then two 500 or 600 ohm resistors to the rest of the circuit.


----------



## takezo

would it look something like this:

 C/8uF - split/one side of input - R/500 ohms - C/150uF - R/500 - C/150 uF - R/56 k - tube

 C/8uF - power supply - R/200 - C/220uF....

 it'd be a tight fit using the blackgates...


----------



## jamato8

I keep forgetting about the front section. I need to sit down and look at the resistors on the front end and then figure it out. Yeah, those little chubby Black Gates take up some room. I am still using the stock caps though I have an extra three as I doubled the caps for the output section, and added the extra cap for whatever else I have mentioned. I have been reading about my field in critical care so my brain is in medicine right now not electronics though it is often the same. 

 The caps are settling more and there is a Snap to the music, fast fast. Extremely dynamic, detailed and no smear. Bass is improving. Not real deep yet but within the area it covers, excellent.


----------



## takezo

yeah, mine is dynamic as never before with incredible resolution
 and absolutely no smearing...not even in shostakovichs' allegro non troppo
 of the 11th symphony...the bass is deeeep and is giving me something
 i've not heard even in the mpx3 se...contour and realistic decay
 of the mid-bass and bass regions...oh, did i mention incredible
 resolution?...i believe i'm hearing what the v-cap hype is all about...
 but i kinda wish it has some of the midrange characteristic the 
 mundorf silver/oil has... the latter has that smooth, bloomy,
 cozy warmth with texture that thrives with vocals, and acoustic
 instruments emphasizing the midrange...

 wait...the window is gone...the wall is gone...impressive...


----------



## jamato8

The silver and gold have been settling all day and now they are getting that liquid quality. Silky smooth mids but natural at the same time. Extremely transparent and dynamic.

 edit: the sound is coming through even more now. Very, very open and the micro dynamics have improved quite a bit. A very nice positive change in the sound.


----------



## jamato8

Well the Mundorfs went through a funky period but have come out of it and with the power supply modification the drive, cleanness and imaging are extremely enjoyable. Well worth the investment.


----------



## takezo

how's the mundorf silver/gold/oil working out, john? how does it
 compare with the silver/oil? 

 i can't get over how good the v-cap sounds with the power supply
 mod...have approx. 140hrs. now and the SQ is impressive beyond
 words...low level detail, separation, sonic richness and weight
 to the notes is so much different and better than ever before the mod...
 it sounds better to me than the jensen pio cap in the mpx3 slam se 
 i have now, even with the best tube combo i have for it...


----------



## jamato8

I am still hearing changes. I am hearing so level detail, well recording buzz/tape noise, and of course along with this musical detail that I have not heard before. Echo/reverb is exceptional. I put in my Marconi tubes yesterday with the 34 metal base and the sound was totally great. 

 On the silver/gold vs the silver I don't know because my silver is in storage. From a conversation from Part Connexion, whom I often buy from and bought the silver and gold from, Chris feels there is a little more detail from the silver/gold and other subtle refinements. Having bought from them for a long time and then tested his information, I have found him to be pretty much on track most of the time. So in this regard I am finding the silver/gold to be very good and living up to what he stated would be the footprint of the cap. 

 I still have the 200volt 220uf Black Gates to use on the input section of the 6DE7 tube. I just don't look forward to the burn-in/forming period of the BG's. I also bypassed all the power supply caps with a .22uf cap (the ones that were used for the coupling caps in the stock model.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... I also bypassed all the power supply caps with a .22uf cap (the ones that were used for the coupling caps in the stock model._

 


 oh? how does this affect the SQ? i thought the stock coupling were 0.1 uF...
 though i've been known to be wrong... many times...

 and yeah, the black gates will go thru more changes and a looong burn in
 before stabilizing...good luck with that!


----------



## jamato8

Sorry, you are right, they are .1uf caps. Anyway, the bypass shunts high frequency garbage that may be and often is, on the DC so what you end up with, if you aren't injecting something else onto the DC, is a cleaner DC for the AC musical signal to ride on. The cleaner the DC the better the sound. The shorter the leads of the bypass cap the better because with longer leads you get inductance going from the long leads which add noise. I actually bypassed right at the pin of the 6DE7 to shunt high frequencies on the DC to ground. I used a very short lead on the pin from the .1 cap. Some people will use 10X then 100X and so on so a 100uf cap would have a 10uf to a 1uf to a .1uf to a .01uf cap bypass but in practice often just a .1 and a .01uf might be used. Everyone favors something different. I often just use a .1 or .01 but Black Gates should only be bypassed with Black Gates. For bypassing other caps like electrolytics I often will use small film caps.


----------



## takezo

does "cleaner" DC mean "less inductance"? in which case it makes
 sense to have a bypass cap to compensate the inductance of the
 larger caps...i may try it in the near future...but the sound is
 very very nice right now... i haven't noticed anything harsh with
 high hats or screaming guitar licks...even with the 701s...

 btw, doesn't bypass sometimes create "smearing"?...how to avoid that?
 wouldn't the blackgates itself be good enough to exclude the need
 for a bypass?...


----------



## jamato8

Yes, the Only bypass for a BG is another BG and even Audio Note UK does this but I don't feel you need to. Yes, done wrong it can cause smearing, that is why it can be trial and error, no matter how experienced you are. It can be scoped but in the end it is all in the hearing. I don't think you need to bypass the Black Gates. I just like to experiment. That is why I have learned what I have and my dialogue with manufactures etc.

 A Goldpoint series attenuator might be a nice addition. 150$ on eBay but that is the list price. They are nice though and less expensive than the DACT, which I have used.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I just like to experiment. That is why I have learned what I have and my dialogue with manufactures etc....
_

 

which is why you are a highly valued member of this forum, in my book.
 i've learned more from you than most websites...looking forward to more
 impressions of the mundorf in the near future!


----------



## jamato8

Glad to help when I can. 

 In doing more reading and studying it looks like the Goldpoint attenuator is a very good option. It offers the same or better quality compared to the DACT and is less money. The 100K stereo version is the way to go. I may order one today or tomorrow. It does say the hole required is 10mm and the one in the Woo is 9mm so I don't know if there will need to be an adjustment or not. Also the original volume control knob should work but they also offer a nice custom one but it is 1/4 inch less in diameter. More transparency should be the consequence as well as improvement on artifacts that lesser attenuators can impart.


----------



## mrarroyo

Jamato do you mean something like?: GOLDPOINT MINI-V BLANK STEPPED ATTENUATOR - eBay (item 190194956436 end time Apr-29-08 02:08:29 PDT)


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jamato do you mean something like?: GOLDPOINT MINI-V BLANK STEPPED ATTENUATOR - eBay (item 190194956436 end time Apr-29-08 02:08:29 PDT)_

 

No, one that is built with smd resitors like:

GOLDPOINT STEREO STEPPED ATTENUATOR - eBay (item 190212737151 end time Apr-13-08 08:30:49 PDT)


 Still hearing some changes even as today has worn on. Going back and forth between a portable and the 6 as music continues to form the caps. Right now it is very transparent and dynamic. It kinda teeters back and forth but I expected this. Unlike my portables I don't leave the tube amp on burning in when i am not around so it takes longer. Nice sound now, extremely good. Will have to look more at a 50 or 100K Goldpoint attenuator.

 Whew, this thing is really changing now. Too real. I need to do more work but the sound is spooky good. Such depth of the acoustical space and 3D feel, and body to the sound, whether guitar or voice or audience.


----------



## jamato8

I have the Goldpoint ordered and on its way. 

 After the pseudo power supply change and the Mundorf silver and gold .22uf coupling cap change this amp has taken on an entirely different sound. It was fine before but the transparency, depth and liquidity is just Wow. The Mundorfs have been opening up today even more. Having never using the silver and gold before I don't know the time frame for them to fully blossom so this is new ground for me. There is a bell like natural quality. The noise floor also seems to have dropped totally away. The dynamics will startle you.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Wondering it is time to email Jack about modding my power supply...


----------



## jamato8

Well I got the Goldpoint today, one day shipping by priority mail but then they were only maybe 80 miles away and it's up and running. Need a little time but already I can hear the difference in cymbals. More of the correct brass sound than brass and splash. Also tone is different. 

 I hear detail that adds to the enjoyment and I hear tape hiss so low that I haven't heard it before. 

 Will update more later.


----------



## jamato8

Well with the Ed. 9 breaking in and further view into the sound of the 6 Modified is coming out. There is a very deep and layered sound that has more of the layering than I have heard before. The combination of the 9, and it isn't even broken in at this time with about 100 hours of on time, works very well. With the modified power supply there is a speed that works very well with the 9's. The 9's also seem to be able to dissect the sound of the 6, while still being musical, that lets me know everything that is going on. For instance cymbals are distinctively brass with no splash of anything but brass. Singers if not on the same plane are easily discerned as to distance in front or behind and to the side. Nice.


----------



## jamato8

Well I figured out how to install an inductor in the 6. This will allow any rectifier, of the correct type, to be used in the 6 and it will stiffen the supply and further filter the DC. It will allow the use of the Sophia Princess 274B or solid plate and any other directly heated rectifier. I am going to raise the B+ a little also.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I forgot, when do I get to send mine to you for all the "new" upgrades?


----------



## jamato8

I got some more RCA 6EW7 narrow tube, tubes today. Not easy to find but you don't have to use an adapter with them. AFter the power supply mod I like the way they sound more. Better transparency and impact.


----------



## jamato8

Ok, I figured out how I should be able to have 3 inductors in the Woo 6. One for each of the output sections of the 6DE7 and one for the input section. The inductor will provide a constant current source and of course the caps provide a constant voltage source. I will also add a cap for each inductor so there will be more caps involved. This will also allow any rectifier to be used from any of the indirectly or directly heated rectifiers that are made to work with the current demand and base configuration. With inductors and capacitance and increased power supply reserves there should be some positive changes to an already great sounding amp.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

John,

 Your determination to wring every last bit out of this amp, and your obvious expertise on how to go about it, is truly amazing.

 As we have talked, I am in line whenever you have the time.

 Wonderful stuff...


----------



## mmwwhats

OK, basic question. Wei Wu, who designs these amps from scratch has 40 years in the biz... how comes he's not designing these mods into the amps?


----------



## jamato8

The new Woo 6 SE does have many of these. It has the pseudo dual power supply and inductors. We all have our own ideas and experiences but frankly there is little that will be done that hasn't already been done. I have a friend who worked for RCA developing tubes. He has several patents and with that extreme experience in all topologies regarding tubes. There was nothing that I showed him that he was not already aware of even when a designer might state that he/she had developed a "new" way of doing something. It normally has just gone into disuse and then is rediscovered. My modifications are things I have been doing for years. My first tube experience was, gag, over 40 years ago when I built a ham radio and then I was a radioman with all tube equipment in the service. 

 Anyway, many of these things are being used and are incorporated in the 6 SE though it is also direct coupled, which is how I have designed and used some preamps.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, basic question. Wei Wu, who designs these amps from scratch has 40 years in the biz... how comes he's not designing these mods into the amps?_

 

Probably because Woo has to design to a pre-determined price point. If you want their all out assault, see the WA5. 

 Jam has no such restrictions, such as worrying about who would buy such a boutique amp, he simply goes with whatever sounds best to his ears, damn the practicality. He's willing to make the effort to get small gains in the amps ability to reproduce music, and fortunately has the talent to do so.

 Owning a "stock", maxxed WA6, I can tell you it is no slouch as-is.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably because Woo has to design to a pre-determined price point. If you want their all out assault, see the WA5. 

 Jam has no such restrictions, such as worrying about who would buy such a boutique amp, he simply goes with whatever sounds best to his ears, damn the practicality. He's willing to make the effort to get small gains in the amps ability to reproduce music, and fortunately has the talent to do so.

 Owning a "stock", maxxed WA6, I can tell you it is no slouch as-is._

 

That is very true. It can really run the price up and then who are you competing with but more expensive amps and you are also out of range of what another group might buy. They do offer the upgrades as noted on their web site, though not exactly the ones I am doing. The pseudo dual power supply for the Woo 6 though is not expensive and provides a big jump in sound, in my opinion. You don't really have to use boutique parts to get great sound. Well implemented standard parts can get you a great bang for the buck. It is all about implementation and I think Woo Audio does a very good job of this.


----------



## mmwwhats

Anyone know if Woo will perform the mods on this thread and if so how much they charge?


----------



## jamato8

So far it doesn't appear so but it is their amp and their design so for them I would imagine that they know what they want to do and when.


----------



## jamato8

Well I changed the power supply around a little. I have the Black Gate nonpolar 150uf caps supplying the power section after a cap>inductor>resistor was changed out for each side. So right off the tap from the rectifier the supply now divides. The very, very slight hum what was audible on sensitive headphones is gone. The Black nonpolar are expensive in this size but very good. I also used Mills 12 watt and Kiwame 5 watt resistors, which are both noninductive and increased the gauge of the wire in the power supply.

 Now it all needs to settle but the sound is good right from the start.

 I notice I hear more detail and the high frequencies are more extended.


----------



## takezo

nice to see you modifying your unit still... looking forward to more
 impressions and pics if you can...

 i'm so satisfied with what i have now i'm not inclined to change 
 anything...for now.

 it's the best $50+ upgrade/mod i've ever done...


----------



## jamato8

AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh, one of my metal base GZ34's is dying. I have never had one die but it has 1000's of hours of use. 

 Anyway, the new mod, well it is extremely transparent and highly detailed. More time is needed. I haven't even finished using all my Black Gates for the power supply.


----------



## Huck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh, one of my metal base GZ34's is dying. I have never had one die but it has 1000's of hours of use. 

 Anyway, the new mod, well it is extremely transparent and highly detailed. More time is needed. I haven't even finished using all my Black Gates for the power supply._

 

Hi: Just curious as i am using a metal base 5AR4 also in my woo 6. How can you tell that the tube is on it's way out....does it make noise,hum or cuts in and out?. I wanna know what to look (listen) for when it's time is up! Thanks, Huck


----------



## jamato8

Well you can start getting hum, makes noise as in tube rush, crackling sound or just dies. I am using it right now and it is ok but since all my tube testers are in storage, I miss them as much as I would miss a good amp, I can't test it. It was crackling (both channels). Anyway, metal base GZ34's last for years. This one was used when I got it, had 1000's of hours on it and I have used it for 1000's more. It still sounds better than any of my other 34's except for my NOS GZ34 metal base.


----------



## Huck

Thanks! Huck


----------



## jamato8

Well after a number of hours the new modification to the power supply is starting to open up after shutting down for a while and leaving me to wonder if I had gone the wrong way. Anyway it is really sounding, Great. A lot of energy and control with a more expansive soundfield than before. More time needed but with the Edition 9's it is some high quality musical listening.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well after a number of hours the new modification to the power supply is starting to open up after shutting down for a while and leaving me to wonder if I had gone the wrong way. Anyway it is really sounding, Great. A lot of energy and control with a more expansive soundfield than before. More time needed but with the Edition 9's it is some high quality musical listening._

 

Be sure to listen with a variety of headphones - it's easy to tune something for the Edition 9 and then it sounds wrong with other headphones. I'm sure you know this already.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be sure to listen with a variety of headphones - it's easy to tune something for the Edition 9 and then it sounds wrong with other headphones. I'm sure you know this already._

 

No, I had been just using the 9's so I will have to use the 650's etc. Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be sure to listen with a variety of headphones - it's easy to tune something for the Edition 9 and then it sounds wrong with other headphones. I'm sure you know this already._

 

Thanks, I just tried my HD650's. They sound totally different. They are more open, clean sounding and engaging. Less laid back but still throwing a nice sound stage. Interesting. They sound faster with the modification of the amp.


----------



## takezo

hey john, when you have the time can you please write down the scheme
 of caps and resistors that would accomodate the use of the 274B
 type tubes? 

 i've been thinking of using a blackgate 3.3uF/250v as the first cap
 followed by a 100ohm resistor upstream from the powersupply 
 and a 500 ohm resistor to each side of the input path... please
 clarify what you would do... (no inductors in the circuit)

 btw, the senn650 does sound very different for me too... the bass is
 tighter and faster... the mids are luminous and the highs are
 clearer and more alive than what i use to hear... and separation of
 notes is impressive...these cans scale very well...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I just tried my HD650's. They sound totally different. They are more open, clean sounding and engaging. Less laid back but still throwing a nice sound stage. Interesting. They sound faster with the modification of the amp._

 

So, it sounds like the amp's mods don't make one headphone sound better but another sound worse (vs before the mods), which is good news indeed.

 Yours must be close to running balanced now? When I run my HD600 balanced they get a lot faster, like Grados but with a bigger soundstage


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, it sounds like the amp's mods don't make one headphone sound better but another sound worse (vs before the mods), which is good news indeed.

 Yours must be close to running balanced now? When I run my HD600 balanced they get a lot faster, like Grados but with a bigger soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Yes, They remind me more of what you get with balanced in speed and tonal quality.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey john, when you have the time can you please write down the scheme
 of caps and resistors that would accomodate the use of the 274B
 type tubes? 

 i've been thinking of using a blackgate 3.3uF/250v as the first cap
 followed by a 100ohm resistor upstream from the powersupply 
 and a 500 ohm resistor to each side of the input path... please
 clarify what you would do... (no inductors in the circuit)

 btw, the senn650 does sound very different for me too... the bass is
 tighter and faster... the mids are luminous and the highs are
 clearer and more alive than what i use to hear... and separation of
 notes is impressive...these cans scale very well..._

 

It might be better to go with a 250 ohm resistor as the current isn't that high and this would allow for a better slowing of the caps filling. I have read old data that used a 4uf cap with a recommended 250ohm resistor after that, which makes sense to me.


----------



## takezo

just for clarification, is this doable?:

 rect. - 4uF/C (split)- 100 ohm/R - PS
 rect. - 4uF/C (split)- 250 ohm/R - input

 what would adding a second filter of a slightly higher capacitance
 in series do for the SQ? like:

 rect. - 4uF/C - 100/R - 68uF/C (split)- 100/R - PS
 rect. - 4uF/C - 100/R - 68uF/C (split)- 250/R - input

 any corrections and/or suggestions would be highly appreciated.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just for clarification, is this doable?:

 rect. - 4uF/C (split)- 100 ohm/R - PS
 rect. - 4uF/C (split)- 250 ohm/R - input

 what would adding a second filter of a slightly higher capacitance
 in series do for the SQ? like:

 rect. - 4uF/C - 100/R - 68uF/C (split)- 100/R - PS The total is 500 ohms or 800 ohms to the output section of each tube. 
 rect. - 4uF/C - 100/R - 68uF/C (split)- 250/R - input I am not sure what this is to. 

 any corrections and/or suggestions would be highly appreciated._

 

I would make the second cap larger. That is the idea of the 200 or 250ohm reistor, to slow the current from the surge, or the spike that can happen. 

 Rect. 4uf 250ohm split to 150uf to 500ohm 150uf or 200uf to tube (power section).


----------



## jamato8

Well I just wasn't crazy about the sound with the two inductors so I changed the power supply to a 22uf input cap then divided that to a RCRC supply for each tubes power section of the 6DE7. 

 I like the speed and openness. There is plenty of drive with no let down in dynamics or bass response. Much better now. So it would be a: 

 22uf to two 330ohm Kiwame reistors to a 22uf to 680ohm to 150uf cap. The caps are all Black Gate with the last one a nonpolar (150uf 350V nonpolar but niiiice). It all fits with no problem. Still have some work to do but I want to get a handle on this.


----------



## takezo

hi john, so, the first two caps are rated 22uF, with the third
 being a 150uF, in a series, to add up to approx. 200uF? the non-
 polar 150uF must've cost an arm...almost as much as a v-cap...
 how did you deal with the front section?

 btw, i've been using a rca 5r4gy with a 4uF reservoir for the past
 7+ days...i noted the measurements with a calibrated tv7d/u before
 and as recently as tonite... no change in the measurements... it
 measured 54/51 7+ days ago and measured the same tonite...


----------



## jamato8

So when are you going to get a Sophia Mesh Plate? I saw some nice mesh plates on eBay from China for around 90 dollars. 

 Yes the Black Gate nonpolar was not cheap, well two of them but they are nice and could be used in a Super E configuration (4 total) for a very low ESR and reduced inductance and of course the uf would be doubled. The second cap as a 22uf could be larger but they are what I have in 350 volt BG's. I do have two larger 200 volt BG's I could put in there but they will be for the front end. I am still running some stock caps for the front that are doubled for each side.

 edit:wow the inductors I was using were killing the sound. Too small for the application. Woo uses the right size in their separate PS for the SE but still the pseudo dual power supply with all caps for the 6 is killer, imo.


----------



## takezo

i'm thinking of getting the sophia's sooner than later... as soon as
 my wife let's me use the stimulus payment we got... but i think
 she's eyeing some hermes watches... lol

 the chinese 274b are essentially the same as the valve art 274b
 without the screening to flushout the bad apples... i have the
 valve art 274b and they sound nice...but like most chinese valves
 they don't have the smoothest mids... slightly grainy and the
 highs aren't as well fleshed out as i hope the sophia's or the 
 western electrics are... 

 keep us updated on your experiments john... looking forward to
 some pics in the future, if possible.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Just an FYI - Jack Wu completed my "pseudo dual power supply mod" yesterday and shipped out my WA6 today. It only made it to him by last Thursday or Friday!! But yesterday I got an email from jack, "Hi Larry, We completed modification for your WA6. It did help to provide more flow in the music and better dynamics". 

 I can't wait to burn it in.

 In a previous email he said, "This implementation, indeed, has been on the WA5/5-LE and the WA6 Special Edition (WA6 SE). Due to chassis size restraints and price factor, we did not include this in the WA6. I have a better and more complete solution for such upgrade. We have a new model, WA6 SE, come out shortly. We are taking pre-order now and the amp is deliverable in 6 weeks. There are also upgraded parts for the 6 SE that cost $450. There are some discussions here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo-6-se-new-two-chassis-offering-321189/" 

 I completely understand that the WA6 was designed to fit in a certain price range in their product line, and that they found the two chassis method was "a better and more complete solution for such upgrade". Jack also understood that I couldn't upgrade to the 2 chassis due to size restraints, as only the WA6 or DarkVoice 336i would fit in the space I have for an amp. I appreciate him agreeing to doing my upgrade, even though it isn't being offered on the website. I suspect it will have to be done on a case-by-case basis if the people who know what to ask for email him.

 I am hoping to buy a Woo GES from him soon as well.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just an FYI - Jack Wu completed my "pseudo dual power supply mod" yesterday and shipped out my WA6 today. It only made it to him by last Thursday or Friday!! But yesterday I got an email from jack, "Hi Larry, We completed modification for your WA6. It did help to provide more flow in the music and better dynamics". 

 I can't wait to burn it in.

 In a previous email he said, "This implementation, indeed, has been on the WA5/5-LE and the WA6 Special Edition (WA6 SE). Due to chassis size restraints and price factor, we did not include this in the WA6. I have a better and more complete solution for such upgrade. We have a new model, WA6 SE, come out shortly. We are taking pre-order now and the amp is deliverable in 6 weeks. There are also upgraded parts for the 6 SE that cost $450. There are some discussions here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo-6-se-new-two-chassis-offering-321189/" 

 I completely understand that the WA6 was designed to fit in a certain price range in their product line, and that they found the two chassis method was "a better and more complete solution for such upgrade". Jack also understood that I couldn't upgrade to the 2 chassis due to size restraints, as only the WA6 or DarkVoice 336i would fit in the space I have for an amp. I appreciate him agreeing to doing my upgrade, even though it isn't being offered on the website. I suspect it will have to be done on a case-by-case basis if the people who know what to ask for email him.

 I am hoping to buy a Woo GES from him soon as well._

 

nice to hear jack is doing the powersupply mod... you'll be pleasantly surprised
 and it only required approx. 150 hrs. of burn in for the extra black gate cap,
 and much less if you're using the stock caps. if you haven't, you should try
 out the paper in oil stage coupling caps like mundorf or jensen... it gives the
 best mids, full of bloom on vocals yet still resolving and dynamic...

 and talk about a fast turnaround... nice!


----------



## jantze

Damn, I guess I'll do this mod too. 
 So I already have all the "stock" mods, so I only need 2 X Mills 1K MRA-12 + 1 Blackgate WK 220uF 200v, right?

 Any other mods i should consider doing at the same time?

 Edit:
 I'm ordering these new parts from partsconnexion.com. 
 I have to order some hook-up wire, so would these be any good:
 Revelation Series (5N) - 23 awg. Solid Core - 99.99% pure Silver hook-up wire (D.H. LABS) 
 or
 JUPITER- 68825 28awg, 99.999% pure(5N), solid-core SILVER (Ag)
 or
 MUNDORF 70801 White Teflon (PTFE) Silver/Gold Hook-Up Wire 0.5mm/24 awg

 Any opinions?

 And what do you guys think about DACT Stereo Attenuators? Are they worth it?
 I'm considering: DACT 70548 CT2-2 (Stereo) 50K CT2-2K(X)
 Was the 50K a proper value for the DACT?


----------



## takezo

yes, what you have listed on top is what i have, though if you want
 to lower the first cap after the rectifier you may want to do it too...
 it's widely known to be safer for 274b variants or others that have
 a small electrical reservoir... though i should note, i've been running
 a tube with the smallest reservoir of 4uF on the wa6 and it's been
 completely fine with no arching, shorting nor reduction of emission/
 transductance on any of the tubes...

 you don't have to go exotic with the wires as long as they are
 of good quality it should be fine... but if i had to choose, i'd use
 the thicker wire for powersupply...

 as for the dact, i've one on my mpx3 and it isn't any quieter or
 better in SQ than my wa6 potentiometer...however, the mpx3
 can make use of some very high gain input tubes and it may be
 making a difference in that situation...


----------



## jamato8

I would not use DACT. I would use the Goldpoint out of California. They have better resistors, .1 vs 1 percent and sound better, as in almost nothing. 

 I wouldn't use silver wire as most places don't make it right. I used the lesser expensive 20 gauge wire they carry for the power supply. The red and black. You don't need to go nuts for something like the power supply wire. I really like the 150uf 350volt nonpolar Black Gate but they are expensive. You can use a Mundorf 4 uf, towards the bottom of the page on the Parts Connexion film caps listing the mundorfs.


----------



## jantze

Ok, I'm still wondering what cap I should order. 
 Here are my candidates:
 Black Gate VK 22uF 350v (22 x 25)
 Black Gate NH 150uF 350v (35 x 25)
 Black Gate WK 220uF 200v (30 x 25)
 Black Gate VK 150uF 350v (30 x 25)
 Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v (22 x 33)
 Mundorf M-CAP® Supreme 5.60uF 800v (36 x 56)
 Mundorf M-Cap® ZN 4.70uF 250v (39 x 45)

 More opinions please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd like to try that Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier in the future, so would the Black Gate VK 22uF 350v or Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v be a good choice?

 Oh, and that Goldpoint Mini-V Stepped Attenuator looks like a winner. I just hope that it will fit inside my WA6.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would not use DACT. I would use the Goldpoint out of California. They have better resistors, .1 vs 1 percent and sound better, as in almost nothing._

 

Hi jamato08,

 DACT have update there audio attenuator CT1 to the new model CT2.
 As you can see in the Data sheet for DACT audio attenuators, the CT2 have also .1% resistance accuracy and the attenuation accuracy is about +/- 0.05 dB.
 So i´m not sure if the Goldpoint is better than the new CT2....


----------



## tunes

Is there anyone who had auditioned and compared the Zana Deux amp with the Woo 6?? I am trying to decide if the new WA6 Special Edition (WA6-SE) Single-ended Triode Class-A Tube Headphone Amplifier
 Output Transformer Coupled is worth buying. With the parts upgrade and spare tibe the price is close to the Zana Deux so forgetting about price, which is the better amp to drive both UE 9 and Grado GS-1000?


----------



## WalkGood

Tuff call, I’m sure one of the members will be up to the challenge to point out the differences, I’d be interested in hearing others opinions as well. I had the honor to sample/audition the new WA6 SE & WA6 Amp unit in Fort Lauderdale @ CanJam, I love the sound, but I’d be hard pressed to identify the difference from my woo unless I was able to do a side by side comparison.

 edit: btw, did you ask Jack


----------



## DoubleEs

The comparison you did on the WA6 SE and WA6 @ Canjam, was the WA6 stock or with upgraded parts?


----------



## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoubleEs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The comparison you did on the WA6 SE and WA6 @ Canjam, was the WA6 stock or with upgraded parts?_

 

I didn't compare them, only listened to the new WA6 SE & WA6 Amp unit. btw, my WA6 is stock, which is fine for me


----------



## jantze

WA6 stock vs. upgraded is totally different beast. I only wish I had the opportunity to compare those amps. I truly enjoy my modded WA6 with HD 650's.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I'm still wondering what cap I should order. 
 Here are my candidates:
 Black Gate VK 22uF 350v (22 x 25)
 Black Gate NH 150uF 350v (35 x 25)
 Black Gate WK 220uF 200v (30 x 25)
 Black Gate VK 150uF 350v (30 x 25)
 Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v (22 x 33)
 Mundorf M-CAP® Supreme 5.60uF 800v (36 x 56)
 Mundorf M-Cap® ZN 4.70uF 250v (39 x 45)

 More opinions please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd like to try that Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier in the future, so would the Black Gate VK 22uF 350v or Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v be a good choice?

 Oh, and that Goldpoint Mini-V Stepped Attenuator looks like a winner. I just hope that it will fit inside my WA6._

 

i'm convinced the wa-6 circuit topology does no harm to tubes with very
 low reservoir capacitance. i've been running the rca 5r4gy with a maximum
 of 4 uF reservoir, compared to 8uF of the 274b, very hard the past 2 weeks
 turning it on and off at least 2 times a day, and more on the weekends, for
 hours at a time but nothing adverse is measurable nor visible on the tube...
 measures the exact same emission from day one to today. the low voltage
 <200V and the relatively slow start up of the wa6 must be what's keeping
 the rectifier from harm... on top of which the tube spec may be very
 conservative...

 i'm going to refrain from adding more filter caps for now...


----------



## jamato8

With a cap of 4 or 8uf there will be little strain on the tube but I am not sure how the 6 is a soft start. You still have a cap that the rectifier sees and if that first cap is 400uf, as an example, it has to fill that. If the first cap is 4 or 8uf then that is what is sees first and it is much easier on the rectifier. It is the first cap before the dropping resistor that either does or does not put a strain on the rectifier tube providing that the first resistor is of high enough resistance to slow the flow of voltage due to current that slows the filling of the caps in the rest of the power supply.


----------



## takezo

i completely understand what you're getting at jamato, but i don't know 
 why or how the 5r4gy and the 274b are avoiding any ill effects from
 the larger capacitance value of the first cap in the wa6...

 jack seems adamant that it's fine to use these rectifiers but all the
 literature on the net says otherwise... which is why i did the short
 experiment. i think i'll continue it for another 2 weeks and see how
 the tubes measure then... btw, the 5r4gy and 274b sounds so
 airy and refined...


----------



## jamato8

It can take longer than that to see a change. And using the 4 or 8 uf cap will mean that you shouldn't see any change for a very long time. I had an amp that used 2 GZ34's in parallel so that they could handle the extra current draw but in this case it was an extreme test. Now the tubes started up slow but that doesn't matter as the first cap was 1200uf! Well anything except a good GZ34 would arc in a short time and be ruined. The manufacture, Cary Audio, said it was fine but then a number of tube users and some with a great deal of knowledge said no way. They changed it, after a few years. I put in a CL90, which is a thermistor that goes to zero resistance after the surge is done so the rectifier doesn't have a sudden current demand by filling those large caps. Well anyway. . . .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have about 48 hours on my upgraded WA6 now, after the Pseudo Dual Power Supply mod with BlackGates. This started out as a maxed WA6 with all the website options like V-caps and BlackGates, except I don't have the DACT.

 I think the biggest difference that I hear is that the WA6 is not as dark sounding as it was before, but instead it seems a little brighter, quicker and punchier; and there is a little better detail and layering. I am wondering, how long should this mod take to fully burn in?

 Thanks!


----------



## takezo

it really depends on how much burn-in the maxed wa6 got, prior to the psuedo
 power mod... all the black gates combined took my maxed wa6 approx. 750 total
 hrs. before it stabilized... after the power supply mod, it took another 150 hrs.
 for the SQ to stop changing...


----------



## mmwwhats

I've read through some of this thread and didn't understand most of it, but does the WA6 SE incorporate most, all, or some of the mods talked about here (the only thing I know is that it has the pseudo power supply, but correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## takezo

the wa6 SE incorporates the "psuedo" dual power supply... 
 the other mods done and discussed by jamato are not...


----------



## jamato8

The new Black Gates will influence the sound and have to go through the forming stage alllll over again. I find that a few changes that I did to mine, again, have required some time and I am getting that fast open great sound. To my the 6 Modified that I started some time back is a different beast now. I am glad they took up my idea of the dual supply for the 6.


----------



## mmwwhats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the wa6 SE incorporates the "psuedo" dual power supply... 
 the other mods done and discussed by jamato are not..._

 

Will Jack perform any of these mods upon request? If so, which should I ask for (he's building me an SE). Also, I know he'll perform the pseudo dual power supply mod on the stock 6 for an additional charge. Is the stock + pseudo exactly equal to the SE other than the two chassis in the SE?


----------



## DoubleEs

I like to know this too as I've been emailing Jack about ordering a WA6 SE from him but can't really justify the price tag of $2K (shipped to the UK plus VAT) as I already have a stock WA6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 On the other hand, if the pseudo dual power mod can be upgraded to a stock WA6 on request, then I may consider this as an option


----------



## dan_can

The SE has the pseudo dual power supply, inductors, direct interstage coupling and separated power supply (two chassis design).


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will Jack perform any of these mods upon request? If so, which should I ask for (he's building me an SE). Also, I know he'll perform the pseudo dual power supply mod on the stock 6 for an additional charge. Is the stock + pseudo exactly equal to the SE other than the two chassis in the SE?_

 

yes, for a price, i assume... but if you're getting a SE version, the only additional
 mod you can opt for is the smaller first cap to facilitate a friendlier current
 pull from the 274b or 5r4gy type rectifier (actually any with a small reservoir).
 and as another member hinted the stock+pseudopower is not equal to the
 SE...on top of what he/she mentioned, the SE supposedly has higher end 
 output transformers, made in-house, for better SQ...


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoubleEs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like to know this too as I've been emailing Jack about ordering a WA6 SE from him but can't really justify the price tag of $2K (shipped to the UK plus VAT) as I already have a stock WA6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On the other hand, if the pseudo dual power mod can be upgraded to a stock WA6 on request, then I may consider this as an option 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

wow, the vat is a killer... i think you're much better off getting the pseudo dual
 power supply mod done on your stock and maybe replace the stock input
 coupling caps to a pair like the jensen, mundorf or v-cap film capacitors to
 get the best sound without breaking the bank...


----------



## jamato8

With the nonpolar Black Gates in the power supply getting more hours on them the amp is opening up even more. The bass is so controlled but yet what I call tuneful, it flows. The drivers of the headphones are maintained in such a way that the lower mids are extremely clean. No smearing here. The bass is more visceral and the impact. . . It is interesting how life's experience accumulate. I started doing the pseudo power supplies years ago and now it pays off again. I realize now the Woo 3 should have this also. It would be a change on the same level.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I'm still wondering what cap I should order. 
 Here are my candidates:
 Black Gate VK 22uF 350v (22 x 25)
 Black Gate NH 150uF 350v (35 x 25)
 Black Gate WK 220uF 200v (30 x 25)
 Black Gate VK 150uF 350v (30 x 25)
 Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v (22 x 33)
 Mundorf M-CAP® Supreme 5.60uF 800v (36 x 56)
 Mundorf M-Cap® ZN 4.70uF 250v (39 x 45)

 More opinions please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd like to try that Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier in the future, so would the Black Gate VK 22uF 350v or Mundorf M-CAP® 8.20uF 250v be a good choice?

 Oh, and that Goldpoint Mini-V Stepped Attenuator looks like a winner. I just hope that it will fit inside my WA6._

 

I guess I'll order Mundorf M-Cap® ZN 4.70uF 250v (39 x 45). I'm going to need stronger legs, since I'll put it in place of that 12 watt Mills resistor.


----------



## jamato8

The resolution just keeps getting better. This is good and bad. If you want to hear the warts and all on a recording, well. I can hear all the great detail but also when a recording is maxxed out you can hear the distortion in the recording very easily and I have details that have not been so apparent in the past. Does this mean it is tilted up? I don't think so as the mids are still there as is the bass and the highs are not strident or shrill just detail in all of the frequency range and I mean all of it from Bass up. I still have work to do though. :^)

 I have been listening to some different well recorded tracks today. Man does this thing bring out the details, they can't hide. Good and bad but the speed is extreme with zero smearing.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess I'll order Mundorf M-Cap® ZN 4.70uF 250v (39 x 45). I'm going to need stronger legs, since I'll put it in place of that 12 watt Mills resistor._

 

That is a big cap but it can fit back against the back plate. Look in there. Twist the wires and you have a good space for it. Expensive cap too but should sound good. I am going to pick up a couple more of the 150uf 350v nonpolar Black Gates. They are gooood. I would love to have them in Super E configuration. That would be choice.


----------



## mmwwhats

I have a question about upgrades for the WA6 SE. So, from this thread it looks like I'd like the Mundof caps for coupling capacitors. However, now this is a total newb question, does the SE even have coupling caps? I ask, because on the upgrade parts list for the SE on the Woo site it doesn't look like coupling caps are mentioned (there's certainly no mention of V-Caps). Can someone please let me know if I can do this. (by this I mean, can I ask Jack to do this... I've e-mailed him, but he hasn't gotten back to me). I've ordered an SE, so I want to make sure I can get in this request before he starts the build.


----------



## dan_can

I guess no coupling caps in SE. That is probably what direct interstage coupling is.


----------



## jamato8

It is direct coupled to the power section of the tube. I have built preamps this way and it is very nice. It is odd as I don't like things in the signal path but both direct coupled and capacitor coupled, if a good cap, work for me. I built a preamp and experimented with the same tubes in direct and cap coupled and they were both detailed and with the right bias and working voltages sounded excellent. With direct coupled you do get rid of an extra cost and of course have even a shorter path for the signal as well as the possible coloration of the cap.


----------



## mmwwhats

Thanks from me too!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Looks like somebody figured out "I-Love-Music" was just building up a post count by writing "Thanks for the info." everywhere, and they've been busy removing those posts...

 Anyways, back to WA6 mods...

 My pseudo dual power supply mod now has about 125 hours of burn-in with the new BlackGates, and it is definitely more open and sparkly, and less dark than it was before the mod. Previously I was almost exclusively using my RS-1 with the WA6 because I could barely enjoy the APS V3 Edition 9 with the WA6. It was just too bassy and dark with the Edition 9 and HFI-780 so I had to use my Travagans Red, or my DarkVoice 336i. Now the Edition 9's bass is controlled better, and the brush strokes on the cymbals in a favorite jazz album are more detailed again. I still think the Edition 9 sound slightly better with my Travagans Red and Apogee mini-DAC headphone out for (a) very low volume listening or (b) while the WA6 warms up (seems to take as much as an hour). However, the WA6 is most definitely improved and really wakes up as the volume goes to moderate or loud levels (or after warmup). It also continues to improve as I reach about 800 hours on the WA6 with giant v-caps and blackgates and 125 hours on the pseudo dual PS mod). The WA6 also sounds even better with my APS V3 RS-1/HD600 and APS V2 D2000 than it did before.

 This has all prompted me to move the DarkVoice 336i back down to my basement rig again. Since I sold the RS-2, I am going to leave the HFI-780 with ALO cable downstairs with the DV336i, so I don't have to kick myself every time I go down there and forget to grab some headphones. I'm still amazed at how good the DV336i sounds with good tubes and Ultrasones/Grados/Denon/HD600 (although it sucked with naamanf's ATH-W5000 when we tried them). It makes a great backup amp too.


----------



## takezo

good to hear you're unit is pretty much burnt in and ready to offer
 you the best it can put out... what rectifer are you using? and 
 are you using the 6de7 or 6ew7 for output tubes? 

 i've noticed that with the powersupply mod the rectifiers are
 imparting a more distinct sound characteristics; it seems the
 improved current supply can really flesh it out. also, the 6ew7 fat
 bottles give out a slightly more resolved, refined and larger soundstage
 than the 6de7, which seems a bit more dynamic and punchy...

 so far, my favorite tube combo/headphone is the large brown base
 gz34 with 6ew7 outputs and the d5000 which has been modded
 following 'markls' instructions. it's the best combo i've encountered
 yet... the mids give me goosebumps sometimes...


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so far, my favorite tube combo/headphone is the large brown base
 gz34 with 6ew7 outputs and the d5000 which has been modded
 following 'markls' instructions. it's the best combo i've encountered
 yet... the mids give me goosebumps sometimes..._

 

Can't wait to get my markl mods parts + tools. I only hope that Jack would reply to my email so that I can get those adapters and 6EW7 tubes.


----------



## jamato8

I just modded again putting in some 150uf 350v nonpolar Black Gates in Super E configuration for the power section and using them for the front section as well. 

 It is like the music is talking to me and they haven't even broken in yet.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good to hear you're unit is pretty much burnt in and ready to offer
 you the best it can put out... what rectifer are you using? and 
 are you using the 6de7 or 6ew7 for output tubes? 

 i've noticed that with the powersupply mod the rectifiers are
 imparting a more distinct sound characteristics; it seems the
 improved current supply can really flesh it out. also, the 6ew7 fat
 bottles give out a slightly more resolved, refined and larger soundstage
 than the 6de7, which seems a bit more dynamic and punchy...

 so far, my favorite tube combo/headphone is the large brown base
 gz34 with 6ew7 outputs and the d5000 which has been modded
 following 'markls' instructions. it's the best combo i've encountered
 yet... the mids give me goosebumps sometimes..._

 

I am using an old 1955 Mullard metal-base GZ34 that tested about 85% as strong as a NOS one on the same tester. I also have a Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 NOS with maybe 50 hours on it, and couple of the Sovtek SAR4 big bottles.

 I have to use only 6DE7 because my WA6 doesn't have the larger holes for 6EW7. When I asked for the PS upgrade, Jack said I couldn't get bigger holes without a whole new chasis and that the big-hole upgrade would not be available. I have a pair of RCA and a pair of Sylvania 6DE7, and I think the Sylvania sound a little brighter/clearer. I bought a pair of Amperex 6DE7 on eBay and the seller canceled and refunded the $29 saying they were not available. Then I bought a pair of Mytron 6DE7 on eBay, and the guy only sent me one last week, and doesn't reply to my emails or eBay message ($15 shipped).

 If anyone has some good tubes they are willing to part with, let me know.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using an old 1955 Mullard metal-base GZ34 that tested about 85% as strong as a NOS one on the same tester. I also have a Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 NOS with maybe 50 hours on it, and couple of the Sovtek SAR4 big bottles.

 I have to use only 6DE7 because my WA6 doesn't have the larger holes for 6EW7. When I asked for the PS upgrade, Jack said I couldn't get bigger holes without a whole new chasis and that the big-hole upgrade would not be available. I have a pair of RCA and a pair of Sylvania 6DE7, and I think the Sylvania sound a little brighter/clearer. I bought a pair of Amperex 6DE7 on eBay and the seller canceled and refunded the $29 saying they were not available. Then I bought a pair of Mytron 6DE7 on eBay, and the guy only sent me one last week, and doesn't reply to my emails or eBay message ($15 shipped).

 If anyone has some good tubes they are willing to part with, let me know._

 

Well you can find the 6EW7 in the small bottle but they are normally 70's RCA, and I know there would be more variety in the big bottler version. 

 Too bad about the tubes cancelled and then getting just one. What about the adapter that Jack was going to have for the 6 so the fat bottle 6EW7 could be used? If I had all my supplies I would make some but everything, supply wise, is in storage in Tucson. All my beautiful testers in storage.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just modded again putting in some 150uf 350v nonpolar Black Gates in Super E configuration for the power section and using them for the front section as well. 

 It is like the music is talking to me and they haven't even broken in yet._

 

Damn, after some reading, I'm tempted to try this too. How did you manage to fit all those parts in? Keep posting how it sounds after proper burn in. 

 Oh, pics would be nice


----------



## jamato8

It was questionable whether they would all fit and be safe at the same time but it just does and everything is anchored. So far the sound . . . . well time is needed.. . but good so far.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait to get my markl mods parts + tools. I only hope that Jack would reply to my email so that I can get those adapters and 6EW7 tubes._

 

i think it's important what you put in the heading for your emails to jack. once
 in a while an email goes unnoticed by him but 90% of the times he's quick to
 answer...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just modded again putting in some 150uf 350v nonpolar Black Gates in Super E configuration for the power section and using them for the front section as well._

 

how many of those NH 150uf are you using? two for each output tubes for the
 powersection and another 2 pair for the front? i may have to consider doing
 a less extensive version of this too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I have to use only 6DE7 because my WA6 doesn't have the larger holes for 6EW7. When I asked for the PS upgrade, Jack said I couldn't get bigger holes without a whole new chasis and that the big-hole upgrade would not be available..._

 

jack sells the adapters/extensions for the fat bottle 6ew7... i got em last 
 year for about $35 for the pair... 

 imo, the metal base is the best for punch/impact/dynamics and live high freq...
 the brown fat base gz34 is the best for liquidy/organic/smooth as silk mids...
 both have deep and well controlled bass too.

 as for the 6de7/6ew7, i get mine from tube world... they seem to have quality tubes
 and good customer service. epay is almost a luck of the draw... sometimes you win
 sometimes you lose...


----------



## jamato8

I used 2 in super E for the power section and one for each side on the input section. No room for 8 of these but there is room for 6 plus I have 2 150uf 200 volt before the super E after the first resistor then a resistor to the Super E. All the caps are Black Gate with the last ones being the nonpolar for the input and power section. I am also using all Kiwame 5 watt resistors for the power supply and Kiwame are great carbon resistors.


----------



## takezo

john, what resistor values are you using between the first cap and 
 all the way thru to the superE caps?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... plus I have 2 150uf 200 volt before the super E after the first resistor then a resistor to the Super E...._

 

wait, are these in series or parallel? 

 is it something like this?

 rect. - 1st cap - R (split) - 150/200v - R - 150/200v - R - super E - tube

 or this?

 rect. - 1st C - R (split) - 150/200v - R - superE - tube


----------



## jamato8

It is CR(split)CRC with the last caps paralleled but inner foil to outer foil of the two last caps, which are the nonpolar and you have Super E for the last two and 300uf of capacitance for each power section of the tube. There has been much written on Super E using the Black Gate nonpolar. I haven't done it with these larger caps because it is almost 200 dollars just for 4 but it is worth it. The pseudo dual power supply I came up with for the 6 is a nice jump in performance, the addition of these expensive nonpolar caps is another quality increment. It is hard to explain but the sound is good from top to bottom and leaves me wanting nothing more except to listen to music. Having said this, I always continue to look around and still have 2 nonpolar red Black Gates for the bias circuit of the power section of the tube having already installed these 470uf caps on the input section of the tubes.


----------



## takezo

i've been reading up on the super E theory and while makes theoretical
 sense i wonder how efficient it is in the pratical application sense...
 digging back into my general physics course i'm reminded that
 the flux generated by an emf/current follows the right hand rule
 in directionality, so placing two nonpolar of equal emf in opposite 
 direction to the current being applied,would in theory, cancel the
 flux of the other... so i suppose, the big question is are these
 caps truly equal in capacitance, hence emf, when we purchase
 them? if not, even the slightest variance would in fact cause a 
 flux of higher amplitude...kind of like the crest of wave forms
 adding to form a larger crest or even distortion depending on
 frequency...which is another variable...

 does the vendor do tests before sending them out? another thing
 i'm reminded of about flux is that they are not constant even 
 when other variables around them are... but i suppose the
 theory is elegant in its simplicity and probably worth the chance
 to test it out in audio application...


----------



## jamato8

Theory and application sometimes seem counter. In application this does work and I have used it for years. I have measured ESR of the caps in E and can't find it, it is so low. The application has been used by Audio Note UK with good success as with other people I know. It is standard now in the ouput of the Monica dac from DIY Paradise. I understand what you are saying as even frequency changes will denote what goes to ground or not and variances in caps even in the different frequencies can not always be accounted for but I have used this method for years and it does work. At least to these ears.


----------



## takezo

thanks john, that's good enough for me... sound quality, while
 subjective, holds more water for me than objective measurements...
 when it comest to enjoyment of recorded music...


----------



## jamato8

Well I just got the Sophia Princess mesh plate 274B. Man is that a huge tube. I mean big. Pretty though, but 1/8 more inch in diameter and it would hit the transformer enclosure. For the price I wish it had a ceramic white base. That would be nice.

 oooouuh, it does sound promising. Oh no, are my metal base GZ34's going to get knocked off the top spot???

 edit: I have noticed as I have refined the 6 more and more that I use less volume as the detail and music come through without the extra volume needed in the past to retrieve this data.

 Well it sure is fleshing out the midrange detail with bit. I will have to compare to my dear NOS GZ34 metal base but for now . . .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I just got the Sophia Princess mesh plate 274B. Man is that a huge tube. I mean big. Pretty though, but 1/8 more inch in diameter and it would hit the transformer enclosure. For the price I wish it had a ceramic white base. That would be nice.

 oooouuh, it does sound promising. Oh no, are my metal base GZ34's going to get knocked off the top spot???

 edit: I have noticed as I have refined the 6 more and more that I use less volume as the detail and music come through without the extra volume needed in the past to retrieve this data.

 Well it sure is fleshing out the midrange detail with bit. I will have to compare to my dear NOS GZ34 metal base but for now . . ._

 

Hey, can I call dibs on your old metal plate if the 274B takes #1 spot?


----------



## jamato8

Well right now I am listening to Lucinda Williams, out west and the bass has tightened up and the sound is mind bending with the 274b, the upgrade I did to the pseudo power supply and a few other things. The depth, width and 3D is mind blowing. With the Ed. 9 in combo it is like every note is wrapped delivered and let go in auditory flight.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I wish you'd stop upgrading, so my earlier version of your pseudo dual power supply doesn't get left behind when it is only a couple of weeks old...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wish you'd stop upgrading, so my earlier version of your pseudo dual power supply doesn't get left behind when it is only a couple of weeks old... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry but its an obsession. Time is needed to see how the nonpolar Black Gates turn out but in the Super E and the best BG had to offer, I can't expect a degrading of the sound but will remain open minded. Too bad Black Gates are no longer made. There is nothing like them.


----------



## number1sixerfan

This thread is a great read...I just need someone to get the new woo 6 se already to compare so I can make up my mind!


----------



## jamato8

Well the SE has an inductor right after the tube rectifier, which means it is easy on any rectifier and it has different output transformers with a reported better high frequency response but I have to add that since I did the pseudo dual power supply the high frequency and upper mids are one thing I noticed that took a jump in quality and the amp became more lively with better extension top to bottom.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Yea, it sounds interesting. Already gave a great chance at a Zana Duex up because I really enjoyed my time with the woo 6 more than any amp I had prior. 

 With the upgrade, will their be more of a difference with the changing of rectifier tubes?


----------



## jamato8

It seems like all changes are easier to hear now, imo. The amp just seems more responsive to input changes, tubes and to my ear, a very good step up in quality performance.

 I have to compare the Princess 274B mesh plate or perforated plate, which is more correct to me since I have many mesh plate tubes from the 20's and early 30's and they are a true mesh vs a perforated plate. Anyway the Princess is sounding very good and dimensional. I have to determine how much is the new Black Gates burning-in/forming and how much is Princess mesh.


----------



## takezo

hey john, which do you prefer? 

 a simple CR(split)CRC path for the ps or a CR(split)CRCRCRC with
 small cap values thru out... the resistor values have to be lower
 to spread out the total impedance but i figure the more the cap
 for filtering/reservoir the merrier... (not taking space/cost into
 consideration)

 ex. 5uf - 250 ohm - 150uf - 500 ohm- 220uf
 ex2. 5uf - 100 - 22uf - 100 - 22uf - 100 - 22uf - 400 - 220uf


----------



## jamato8

You are better off with LRLRCR as an inductor is better but I realize there is no room. I don't like too many caps but there are programs that will give you a better idea of what is being done with the ripple.


----------



## takezo

i think i know what program you're talking of...something like duncans' power 
 supply designer version 2... i was just inquisitive if more meant better or the
 opposite as in the simpler the better... i'm still on the fence as to if i'll lower
 the first cap... it's almost a month of pushing the amp daily with the 5r4gy
 rectifier with a recommended max reservoir of 4uf and no issues to speak of... 
 the emission measurement hasn't changed at all...surprising considering i turn
 the unit on and off at least 3 times a day...

 i recently upgraded some caps out of my dac with nonpolar blackgate the nx
 series and after a weird 50+ hrs. of bloated, compressed nightmare it's finally
 starting to sound "upgraded"... as i've found, the dac or source is of the utmost
 importance in what your amp will able to pull out... man these nx series are
 great for fleshing out tight controlled yet lush lower mids...


----------



## jamato8

Yes Duncan has a bunch of good stuff. I have used their tube page for years, invaluable. 

 There is nothing like the Black Gate nonpolar. Their NX and HiQ caps are great. I have even compared them directly in the signal path vs film caps and they still do an amazing job. They really are not like any electrolytic cap. Too bad they are out of production. 

 The 6 is maturing with the new nonpolar 150uf 350V Black Gates in the power supply and it is nice.


----------



## jamato8

Ok, I modified the 6 again. This is a change in the way the DC is routed to the front section of the tubes. I wasn't ever real happy with a RCR for the driver section as this is too little filtering in my opinion. So what I did was come off of the second cap used for the power section of the tube. This then is a CRC(front section junction and continuing to power section)RC. The front section is now from the first cap a CR(X2)C(X2 and where I came off for the front section)R(X2)C(X2)R(X2). This also tends to balance the current demand. The amp also became quieter with a little bit better dynamics and detail. I also dropped the front end resistor from 56K to 47K, which puts a little more voltage on the front section. I need to measure the current on the cathode and see where this falls in the curve for the tube but the tube can be run much higher for more power but it is sounding pretty good. 

 Oh, the Sophia Princess 274B mesh plate is sounding very good. The GZ34 metal base is also excellent but different. The Princess is a little more analog sounding and very pleasing. I am not prepared to say which I prefer yet but the Princess is exceptional and a great tube to now have on the market. We are lucky.


----------



## takezo

that sounds like a good idea... something i was planning to do when
 i ever got around to lowering the first cap...

 depending on what the resistor value is after the first cap i can
 see why you'd need to decrease the front end resistors that are
 parallel, but, why the increase of the voltage for the front section?
 wouldn't it decrease the life of the 6de7/6ew7 tubes? 
 have you increased the B+ of the output section too? please
 clarify...


----------



## jamato8

It is current, bias, that is hard on a tube when too high. I didn't increase the voltage that much and really if you look at the specs for the tube it can be run much harder than what it is. 
 '
 None of the resistors need to be changed in value because the current demand of the front section of the tube is so low that the added 600 ohms or whatever your first resistor is, has little effect on the voltage. The output section is still around 175 volts but can be run higher but there isn't too much more from the way the transformer is set up, which is one reason (the lower voltage) there is less stress on the rectifier.


----------



## takezo

thanks for the explanation john.


----------



## jamato8

As an update to my updates. I am using the 6EW7 right now, which I had not tried since doing the pseudo dual supply. I can now really tell the difference in sound from the 6EW7 and 6DE7. The 6EW7 really has some great spatial qualities and fleshes out the 3D effect often brought about by tubes.


----------



## jamato8

Well after more upgrades to the power to the power supply, as mentioned by using nonpolar expensive BG's and in Super E Configuration, I have tried the GZ34 metal base again after listening to the 274B for some time and during the break-in process of the new caps and running the input section off of the power supply for the power section of the tube, which gives the input section better filtering, I am not sure which tube, the Sophia Princess 274B or the GZ34 metal base, I prefer. The Sophia may provide a large soundscape, which is always welcome, to me anyway, in headphone listening. 

 As cool as the Sophia mesh plate looks, I wouldn't mind it if it were a smaller tube or in a balloon shape but it is nice to have another very high quality rectifier on the market. I wish someone would come up with a high quality indirectly heated rectifier like the metal base GZ34 because I prefer the slow warm up but. . .


----------



## takezo

john, i'm certain the wa6 is safe to use with the sophia princess or any other
 with low reservoir for capacitance. i've run the 5r4gy, with the 4uf reservoir, for
 6 weeks now with no affect on the emission measurement nor sound... no 
 change at all. i will get one when my wife gives me some allowance.

 but, i think i'll add a 22 uf blackgate vk series cap as the first cap after rect...
 it'll act as that extra filter stage for the front end, as you've mentioned.

 i think all my caps have settled, including the recently changed on my dac, 
 cause the sound is absolutely gorgeous. not a hint of compression and the
 separation of notes is amazingly focused and expansive. actually, the sub-bass
 on the wa6 unit i've modified is beeper and better controlled than my mpx3...
 the distinction of spacing and position of instrument is superb. i can easily
 distinguish which instrument is forward, middle, back, left, middle, right and
 can discriminate the gradation of loudness from each instrument without
 smearing or that compressed sound where all notes have the same loudness.
 soft pianissimo notes can co-exist with forte without compromise to the
 resolution nor dynamic range...wow.


----------



## jamato8

Well there is no question that with a 4uf cap that any rectifier will be operated within specs. You didn't notice an increase in hum?

 I think the Sophia Princess mesh plate is the top rectifier after comparing it to even my nos Philips GZ34 metal base. I need to measure the voltage also as I am sure the Sophia is dropping more but I am not sure how much. 

 Yes, with the power supply modification the amp is taken to a new height that to me doesn't resemble the original in any area. Connect the resistor for the driver section of the tube to cap supply of the power section before the last resistor to the power section and the amp will be even quieter as you have better filtering for the first section of the tube. Since you are only adding a few mA's to the draw you aren't going to drop the voltage to the power section of the tube by more than 1 or 2 volts and that won't matter. That way the first section of the tube has a C (single and divides here with two resistors) RCRCR instead of a R (comes right off of the rectifier)CR.


----------



## takezo

actually, what i meant was i'm using a 5r4gy with a recommended max of
 4uf on my wa6 which has the 220 uf cap as the first cap of the ps.
 no effect on the tube yet... the only time i get any low residual hum
 is when i use a russian 5z4gt tube and it's barely audible...

 do the sophia princess sound aggressive or laid back compared to
 the metal gz34? which has the edge in the mids and highs?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

It's a shame I don't understand any of this enough to do anything. It sounds like even though I have the pseudo dual PS mod that you have taken yours another step beyond that.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a shame I don't understand any of this enough to do anything. It sounds like even though I have the pseudo dual PS mod that you have taken yours another step beyond that._

 

If you have the pseudo dual power supply you are fine. That is where the kick comes in and shows the greatest improvement. When I take the power off of the cap going to the power section of the power supply it is a further refinement but nothing like the dual supply. 

 So how are you liking the change at this point?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I am liking it with everything except the Edition 9 seem to dark and bassy. But I am thinking the Bugle Boy GZ34 was better than this metal base, so I am gonna roll back tomorrow. 

 I also now have 2 new pairs of 6DE7 to try out, which I found at a local place when I went to buy some Canare four conductor cable to make some home-made orthodynamics with SFI drivers. I have the Sylvania and RCA that I have tried already, and now I have a new pair of NOS Raytheon and a pair of used but strong GE ones. I found a single skinny bottle 6EW7 but they didn't have a pair - they offered to try to order some for me, at about $40 a pair.


----------



## jamato8

Interesting as all I use much of the time is the 9's and they aren't bass heavy with any of the tube combinations in the 6 modified. I am enjoying using the Sophia Princess mesh plate. Did Woo Audio modify your 6? Do you have an internal shot?


----------



## jantze

Another question for jamato8 & takezo. 

 Would this be suitable configuration for Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B?

  Code:


```
[left]rectifier -> left: Black Gate VK 22uF/350v -> 1K Mills MRA-12 -> Black Gate WK 220uF/200v -> power tube -> right: Black Gate VK 22uF/350v -> 1K Mills MRA-12 -> Black Gate WK 220uF/200v -> power tube[/left]
```

Or should I just replace those 22uF caps with Mundorf M-Cap ZN 4.70uF 250v?

 The reason behind this configuration is only wiring and space.

 I still haven't ordered any parts due to my Buffalo DAC build. Just trying to order all the parts at the same time


----------



## atbglenn

I have a stock wa6. What would the pseudo dual PS mod do for me? I love the tube sound it has right now and I don't want to make a mistake and get the mod if it makes it sound less like tubes.


----------



## takezo

it looks fine to me...
 i've changed my config. since last to this below and it sounds
 as good as ever:

 rect> 22uf/350> left> 500 ohm resistor> 220uf/200> 500 ohm> 220uf/200> tube
 ......................right> 500 ohm> 220uf/200>500ohm>220uf/200>tube

 this may offer better ripple filtering but too many caps/resistors will also
 introduce more inductance/resistance in the circuit. i think the best thing is
 to try both config. and see for yourself.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a stock wa6. What would the pseudo dual PS mod do for me? I love the tube sound it has right now and I don't want to make a mistake and get the mod if it makes it sound less like tubes._

 

it doesn't affect the "tubey" signature except make it more transparent and
 sound effortless in pumping out even the most intense, congested passages
 of music. you can even go for an even more "tubey" sound by changing the
 stage coupling caps to the mundorf silver in oil or jensen's paper in oil capacitor.
 i'm certain jack can do any of these upgrades for a price.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it doesn't affect the "tubey" signature except make it more transparent and
 sound effortless in pumping out even the most intense, congested passages
 of music. you can even go for an even more "tubey" sound by changing the
 stage coupling caps to the mundorf silver in oil or jensen's paper in oil capacitor.
 i'm certain jack can do any of these upgrades for a price._

 

I can confirm all of the above, and then some. Jamato's mods have turned this amp into something VERY special.

 I see a few people here selling off their WA6's. I wonder if they know that with a simple rectifier change (Sophia Princess), and the mods discussed in this thread, that they have a world-class amp in their midst. I know I do.

 Thanks again John, by the way. John Amato (jamato8), is as pleasant in person as he appears here on the forum. And he definitely knows his stuff! I learned a ton.

 now back to listening...


----------



## atbglenn

Jack from Woo Audio wants $120 plus $30 shipping to do the pseudo dual PS mod. Seems like a good deal. I was wondering if any of you sent your amp back to have this done? My concern is that I'm extremely picky as to the quality of the rework done. I'm very skilled at soldering. (Been doing it for almost 40 years) I made wiring harnesses for printing presses professionally for over 25 years. But I'm not sure how to do the mod myself. If I had a schematic, and the parts needed, I know I can do it. Or should I just let Jack do it?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jack from Woo Audio wants $120 plus $30 shipping to do the pseudo dual PS mod. Seems like a good deal. I was wondering if any of you sent your amp back to have this done? My concern is that I'm extremely picky as to the quality of the rework done. I'm very skilled at soldering. (Been doing it for almost 40 years) I made wiring harnesses for printing presses professionally for over 25 years. But I'm not sure how to do the mod myself. If I had a schematic, and the parts needed, I know I can do it. Or should I just let Jack do it?_

 

He was charging 200 so that is a good price. I am not sure if he does it the same way I do because I have changed a few things since I first told him about the pseudo dual power supply. 

 I also use the Black Gate nonpolar 150uf 350volt caps, which are very expensive and harder to fit in since they are larger. Panasonic makes some excellent caps that are polar but would still be very nice for a very good price. I would assume that for 120 he is using the stock type caps but adding a couple, which works. I add a stage of filtering, which gives a cleaner DC. For the first cap off of the recitifier I use a BG 22uf 350 volt and divide from there with two resistors to 150 or 220uf can be used in the 200 volt since the first resistors drop the voltage to around 180 volts. Everything has been explained in previous text. It takes looking everything over inside and experience with tubes helps. 

 After a few weeks of using the nonpolar Black Gates they are still forming and over the last day and a half the sound has opened up even more with bass taking on an unreal, real quality. The transparency is unreal, as in excellent. 

 This shouldn't even be a mod but standard since it would be so easy just to build the stock amp this way and it would be killer but then I have used dual supplies for years and knew the sound would improve. I never like to feed two channels from a single power source. They are fighting for the power and that degrades the sound.

 I wouldn't be worried about the rework at all. They are excellent at what they do and use very high quality soldering techniques as well as layout.


----------



## takezo

yeah, i'm pretty sure jack and his partners haven't added an extra
 filtering stage between the rectifier and the output tubes. for the
 power section i'm not sure it's entirely necessary but i agree with
 you that an extra filtering stage for the front section is a great
 idea. i'm doing the same as you mentioned previously by coming
 off the cap before the last resistor in the power section and it goes
 straight to the RCR front section, making it a CRCRCR now.
 you're so right john, i can sense a deeper black when there's a
 silence between notes.

 one of these days i'll definitely try the super E config. with those
 blackgate NH caps. i may need to buy them soon though...don't
 want to run into the "sold out" sign...

 and atbglenn, if you're confident with your soldering and working
 around high voltage then i think you should spend the extra time
 doing it yourself. you can spend that $150 on the caps/resistors
 and still have enough to upgrade other parts as well... i'd go
 over the earlier part of this tread to gather a better perspective
 of what was done and if you're unsure of any details, just ask. i'm
 unsure if jack will give you the schematics of the psuedo dual
 ps mod, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. i'm also uncertain if posting their
 schematic on these forums is grounds for any legal trouble...good luck.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah, i'm pretty sure jack and his partners haven't added an extra
 filtering stage between the rectifier and the output tubes. for the
 power section i'm not sure it's entirely necessary but i agree with
 you that an extra filtering stage for the front section is a great
 idea. i'm doing the same as you mentioned previously by coming
 off the cap before the last resistor in the power section and it goes
 straight to the RCR front section, making it a CRCRCR now.
 you're so right john, i can sense a deeper black when there's a
 silence between notes.

 one of these days i'll definitely try the super E config. with those
 blackgate NH caps. i may need to buy them soon though...don't
 want to run into the "sold out" sign...

 and atbglenn, if you're confident with your soldering and working
 around high voltage then i think you should spend the extra time
 doing it yourself. you can spend that $150 on the caps/resistors
 and still have enough to upgrade other parts as well... i'd go
 over the earlier part of this tread to gather a better perspective
 of what was done and if you're unsure of any details, just ask. i'm
 unsure if jack will give you the schematics of the psuedo dual
 ps mod, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. i'm also uncertain if posting their
 schematic on these forums is grounds for any legal trouble...good luck._

 

High voltage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've zapped myself with 460 VAC while working on a DC Motor Controller more than once in my years of working on printing presses. One time somebody installed the circuit breaker upside down so I thought it was off! Luckily it was only across one hand. Did it hurt?? you bet your ass it did! Well anyway, I do have experience with high voltage.

 I send an email to Jack asking him what parts he adds. Hopefully he'll email me and let me know.

 Glenn


----------



## atbglenn

Jack responded with this for the power supply mod.

 "We will need one Blackgate filter cap and use 2 resistors instead of 1. The cap will be mounted (some machining work) in a proper place so it won't obstruct with wiring."


 Any thoughts?


----------



## takezo

oh, is your unit the maxxed wa6? if so, the blackgate is needed.
 and is about $32 per piece not to mention shipping...

 another thing i just thought of was that if woo audio does it, it
 will be under warranty... wave any existing warranty goodbye if you do
 anything yourself. i guess piece of mind may be worth the extra
 dough.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh, is your unit the maxxed wa6? if so, the blackgate is needed.
 and is about $32 per piece not to mention shipping...

 another thing i just thought of was that if woo audio does it, it
 will be under warranty... wave any existing warranty goodbye if you do
 anything yourself. i guess piece of mind may be worth the extra
 dough._

 

Maybe he didn't know my wa6 is totally stock.. I just sent him another email


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jack from Woo Audio wants $120 plus $30 shipping to do the pseudo dual PS mod. Seems like a good deal. I was wondering if any of you sent your amp back to have this done? My concern is that I'm extremely picky as to the quality of the rework done. I'm very skilled at soldering. (Been doing it for almost 40 years) I made wiring harnesses for printing presses professionally for over 25 years. But I'm not sure how to do the mod myself. If I had a schematic, and the parts needed, I know I can do it. Or should I just let Jack do it?_

 

My WA6 was the first one he was willing to do the mod on, so it was $200 + $30 shipping. Now that he has the procedure down and is only charging $120 + shipping it is a no-brainer. It is crisper and clearer and more open now.

 PS: mine was already maxed before the pseudo dual PS mod.


----------



## jamato8

The trick is to have enough capacitance for storage, get the ripple as low as you can with that and not have too much capacitance of the wrong type or you start hearing the sound of the caps, which spoils the music. 

 With the SE and the outboard supply I would have a very low DCR <10 ohms inductor but using two of them in a LCLCRC to the power section and come off of the second C to the front tubes in that C to RCR. I do know of a some highly respected amps with just CRC. . . . with no inductors that are very fast and organic. It's all in the implementation.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The trick is to have enough capacitance for storage, get the ripple as low as you can with that and not have too much capacitance of the wrong type or you start hearing the sound of the caps, which spoils the music. 

 With the SE and the outboard supply I would have a very low DCR <10 ohms inductor but using two of them in a LCLCRC to the power section and come off of the second C to the front tubes in that C to RCR. I do know of a some highly respected amps with just CRC. . . . with no inductors that are very fast and organic. It's all in the implementation._

 

To be honest. You are one of my tube god's. I value your opinions so much, but I just can't afford all the effort. I just hope that my new version will be good enough. 

 2 X 22uF should do the trick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thank you to all my knowledge to jamato8 & takezo. Without you guys, I would still be in "normal" tube world 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When I'm done with my new DAC, I'll invite you both to Finland.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe he didn't know my wa6 is totally stock.. I just sent him another email_

 

They can do it but not use the Black Gates but something like the Panasonic, which are excellent caps and cost around 6 dollars each vs the 32 dollar cost of the BG's and in my case 48 dollars each for the nonpolar and I use 6 besides two 150uf and one 22uf Black Gate. I think the Panasonics can do a great job.


----------



## atbglenn

I got a response from Jack. Since mine is stock, he said he would add a Rubycon cap and 2 resistors instead of 1. Will this do the job??


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a response from Jack. Since mine is stock, he said he would add a Rubycon cap and 2 resistors instead of 1. Will this do the job??_

 

Yes that will work. I use more filtering but you will be getting a pseudo dual supply.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes that will work. I use more filtering but you will be getting a pseudo dual supply._

 

Thanks for the quick response


----------



## dvb-projekt

Hi @ all.

 Today my WA6 "extreme maxxed" arrived from Jack. It took a little bit longer, because he made a few new pictures for his Webside from it.
 I am very happy with it ! Absolute fantastic job from Jack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 I order it with the Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier and 6EW7.






 Here you can see the complete Upgrade-Package:

 Parts upgrade - Attenuator upgrade - Pseudo Dual PS












 And now.... Burning-In Time... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






















 Thank you all for your reviews ect. It was a great help for me, to find the right Parts... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The first impression is very superb! I hope it took not to many time to burn-in.....


----------



## atbglenn

Looks awesome! I wish you the best of luck with it


----------



## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi @ all.

 Today my WA6 "extreme maxxed" arrived from Jack. It took a little bit longer, because he made a few new pictures for his Webside from it.
 I am very happy with it ! Absolute fantastic job from Jack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1807/img0470ti8.jpg
 I order it with the Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier and 6EW7.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2794/img0474xs6.jpg

 Here you can see the complete Upgrade-Package:

 Parts upgrade - Attenuator upgrade - Pseudo Dual PS

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1684/img0468mt2.jpg

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1108/img0469dh4.jpg


http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8888/img0479zg9.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9154/img0478zd8.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/861/img0488rw8.jpg


 Thank you all for your reviews ect. It was a great help for me, to find the right Parts... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The first impression is very superb! I hope it took not to many time to burn-in.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Thanks for the pics, so that's how the pseudo dual power supply mod looks like.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ragonix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the pics, so that's how the pseudo dual power supply mod looks like._

 


 Yes, realy prefect build from Jack !


----------



## takezo

wow, those are some nice photos, dvb-projekt. thanks for sharing with us!

 don't worry about the burn-in, cause it's gonna be very long... just enjoy it
 and go thru the ups and downs in SQ yourself. i'm enjoying the gs-1000 with
 my modified wa6 very much these days. it reproduces the best mid bass
 of any of my headphone/amp combo... it's the closest thing to a speaker that
 i've experienced with headphones.


----------



## jamato8

Yeah I still hear changes to mine but then I am using the nonpolar Black Gates and more filtering stages. Curious that Jack came directly off of the rectifier for the front tubes and not off of the single cap, which would have given more filtering. I notice that he has gone to the larger holes for the 6EW7 tubes. I asked him about that 6 or 7 months ago so it is nice to see it implemented. No more adapters needed, which makes since. The amp should provide years of high quality sound.

 I know that with mine I get a fantastic quality of base. The rest of the frequency range just seems right. It is nice to have amp that can do this with a small footprint.


----------



## takezo

couldn't resist... here's what mine looks like inside after several changes since
 many months back. i've moved around the resistors to allow an extra filter stage
 for the front section and the first cap is now a 22uF blackgate.


----------



## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_couldn't resist... here's what mine looks like inside after several changes since
 many months back. i've moved around the resistors to allow an extra filter stage
 for the front section and the first cap is now a 22uF blackgate.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...1/wa6mod21.jpg_

 


 Nice, I hope Jamato will post his as well. It will be interesting in seeing all these different W6 internals.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Has anyone compared the V Cap to a Mundorf Silver/Gold ? 

 Those amps look very very nice.......drooling slightly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## jamato8

Mine isn't near as pretty but then I used nonpolar, which are bigger and I used 2 more caps for a total of 9 caps. I will try and get an image but remember, it is more like a prototype, which isn't near as nice as what I consider a production type of layout.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Jamato didn't you have pics of your mod......I can't seem to remember if you did or not ....

 These upgrades are just the tonic for a habitual DIY junkie like myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well done I say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_couldn't resist... here's what mine looks like inside after several changes since
 many months back. i've moved around the resistors to allow an extra filter stage
 for the front section and the first cap is now a 22uF blackgate.
_

 

Wonderful job Tak, looks as good as I bet it sounds.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jamato didn't you have pics of your mod......I can't seem to remember if you did or not ....

 These upgrades are just the tonic for a habitual DIY junkie like myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well done I say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

I had them for the Woo 3 but never for the 6. With all the caps I have in the 6 there isn't a bit of room left but the sound. . . .


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wonderful job Tak, looks as good as I bet it sounds._

 

thanks and it sounds better than it looks, really.

 you'd be surprised at what this amp can put out with the right headphone...
 i've been using the gs1000 lately and can't seem to go back to the senns
 nor the 701... there's a big gap in performance.

 john is probably getting a taste of what the amp can do with his caps
 forming. i'd love to try the supe E config one day, as well as the princess.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had them for the Woo 3 but never for the 6. With all the caps I have in the 6 there isn't a bit of room left but the sound. . . ._

 

wow, you're left speechless i take it... 

 i'd like to see what your layout looks like with the super E config... it must've
 been difficult to work in that small space... with constant mods there's no need
 for prettiness... the sound's all that matters.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had them for the Woo 3 but never for the 6. With all the caps I have in the 6 there isn't a bit of room left but the sound. . . ._

 

Ah thanks for clearing that up !

 Now all you need to do is craft a bigger case for your Super 6 which will allow room to tweak it further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Peete.


----------



## sonq

Is there an obvious improvement in sound quality upgrading from stock to the DACT CT2? 

 Fo about the same budget, will I get more out of a stock WA6SE or a maxxed WA6?

 I've skimmed through almost all the pages on this thread but can't seem to find answers to the above and will appreciate if someone can share their experience. Thanks.


----------



## dvb-projekt

@ jamato8

 Do you think, we could push the SQ with a special pair of 6EW7 Tubes?


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ jamato8

 Do you think, we could push the SQ with a special pair of 6EW7 Tubes?_

 

You could definitely push it over the top with a pair of these... 6H30P-DR Supertube

 I'm not sure if they can be implemented in the WA6, but they are about the best drive tubes going. I'm using them in my Transporter, and they are wonderful.


----------



## jamato8

No they wouldn't work but I have a pair and they are ok. They go noisy easily.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No they wouldn't work but I have a pair and they are ok. They go noisy easily._

 

So yes ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 or no ...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So yes ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or no ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Oh sorry. I have built a number of different circuits using tubes and one of them is for my home dac. I tried those tubes in it some years ago and they were interesting but a little soft sounding. I still have them but even the importer I got them from stated that it was hard to find ones that didn't get noisy after a while.


----------



## dvb-projekt

So i use the match pair or Raython, Jack deliver to me....


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Right now my WA6 maxed is so good with my Grado RS-1 (and APS V3 cable) that they basically sound very close to electrostatic headphones.

 Switching from my HE60 on a borrowed Woo GES to the RS-1 on my WA6 is not a big shock to the system in terms of similar tone and timbre, speed and detail - with the biggest difference being the soundstage of the RS-1 is more forward and upfront, while the HE60 are still more airy and transparent with better soundstage. Yikes! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Stick a fork in me, I'm done.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh sorry. I have built a number of different circuits using tubes and one of them is for my home dac. I tried those tubes in it some years ago and they were interesting but a little soft sounding. I still have them but even the importer I got them from stated that it was hard to find ones that didn't get noisy after a while._

 

That's interesting to know John. I guess I'll keep my eye...errr, my ear on them.


----------



## dvb-projekt

After the first days with my new WA6, I change the standard 3A Fuse to the PADIS/Furutech High End Performance Fuse like i did it in my other audionet components last year.

 The effect is absolute incredible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Better soundstage, extreme fast sound ect. 
 But i know what to expect from these little blue things. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 The German Furutech Distributor "Padis" developed the Fuses first for the German Market. *And now Furutech sells them international!*






 I can highly recommend these Fuses to all of you. For a few bucks, you get an overall enhancement that you don´t beleve.

 Test it yourself. I´m curious about your opinion.


----------



## dan_can

which one did you get and where did you get it from?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After the first days with my new WA6, I change the standard 3A Fuse to the Furutech High End Performance Fuse like i did it in my other audionet components last year.

 The effect is absolute incredible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Better soundstage, extreme fast sound ect. 
 But i know what to expect from these little blue things. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The German Furutech Distributor "Padis" developed the Fuses first for the German Market. *And now Furutech sells them international!*

 I can highly recommend these Fuses to all of you. For a few bucks, you get an overall enhancement that you don´t beleve.

 Test it yourself. I´m curious about your opinion._

 

while i can understand your excitement and enthusiasm, i wonder how much
 of the SQ change is actually the result of changing the fuse or if it's just the
 capacitors settling in your new unit. you can do a simple experiment by 
 switching back to the stock fuse to see if the SQ changes... from my 
 experience fuses have zero effect on SQ, as well as the fact that a new
 wa6 unit with blackgate caps will fluctuate in SQ rapidly in the beginning
 and only slow down gradually for longer periods til around hr. 750...


----------



## dvb-projekt

@ dan_can

 I buy the fuses for my equipment here:

PADIS Progressive Audio Distribution High-End Performance Feinsicherung 5x20mm - die nadel - Ihr Onlineshop fuer HiFi-Zubehoer und mehr

 Perhaps they ship them also international. Simply ask them.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_while i can understand your excitement and enthusiasm, i wonder how much
 of the SQ change is actually the result of changing the fuse or if it's just the
 capacitors settling in your new unit. you can do a simple experiment by 
 switching back to the stock fuse to see if the SQ changes..._

 


 You´re completly right, but you could switch the SQ-Upgrade so often you switch the fuses!


 If somebody of you could speak a little German, here is a small review of the German "Stereo"

Stereo Padis/Furutech Review


----------



## Gregious

I can't believe how good this mod is....

 Got my pseudo-dual mod back from Jack as well as the sophia princess. The HD650 now sounds so unbelievably punchy and clean I haven't been able to take them off. Then I found a good deal on the K701 and had to go and do something stupid and buy them too. Still burning them in but they already sound great too! Not lacking the bass I was worried about. I can't decide which I like better, they both work really well with this amp! They're certainly different cans, but what's weird is I think the mod has actually brought them closer to each other in sound. The 650 opened up a bit and got punchier and faster, while K701 bass seems to be responding really well and the overall sound is warmer than I expected. Amazing stuff. Jamato, you rock.


----------



## sonq

Is this pseudo-dual mod standard in the newer WA6? I noticed 2 separate power transformers in WA6 on their website?

 I've asked this question a few times without any reply but here i go again: what's the improvement that the Sophia Princess brings over the stock tube?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this pseudo-dual mod standard in the newer WA6? I noticed 2 separate power transformers in WA6 on their website?

 Those two transformers are the output transformers and are part of the 6 no matter what is done with the power supply.

 As far as I know the dual supply only being used if a requested modification. 

 I've asked this question a few times without any reply but here i go again: what's the improvement that the Sophia Princess brings over the stock tube?_

 


 The Sophia is more open, clean sounding and just plain better in all areas. The sound stage is noticeably open.


----------



## sonq

Thanks for your reply.


----------



## atbglenn

I just got my wa6 with the pseudo dual PS mod back from Jack. I sent it out Fed-EX on July 22nd, he had it the following day since I'm also from NY, got it back today (July 29th) I'm only going to make comments right now on the quality of work since I haven't listened to it yet. Needless to say, Woo Audio is a class act. The quality of PTP rework is second to none IMO. Unlike some other unnamed manufactures, the turn around was super fast.


----------



## Gradofan2

Absolutely... no question!

 And... it ought to sound better... because it looks so good... even if its only the "placebo effect." 

 And... the added confidence one has because of the "jewel-like" construction, and the customer service and responsiveness is "worth a lot," even if it doen't sound quite as good - which is likely not materially different anyway.

 Unnamed vendors should "take a lesson."


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Absolutely... no question!

 And... it ought to sound better... because it looks so good... even if its only the "placebo effect." 

 And... the added confidence one has because of the "jewel-like" construction, and the customer service and responsiveness is "worth a lot," even if it doen't sound quite as good - which is likely not materially different anyway.

 Unnamed vendors should "take a lesson."_

 


 gradofan you got that right about "jewel-like construction, and Jack's customer service blows away the competition by a long shot.
 I can't wait to listen to it, but unfortunately I have a summer cold right now and my hearing is messed up. I did test it to make sure it's working


----------



## jamato8

I am listening the Grateful Dead, The Closing of Winterland 1978 and it is killer. The bass of this amp with the Edition 9's is SOLID and ultra fast. The space and openess of the sound and imaging is great. The quality of this recording is astounding and my Modified 6 does it justice.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

As you know, I have a maxed WA6 with all the Vcaps and BlackGates upgrades, and I added the pseudo dual power supply upgrade in May. I have been using a Metal base GZ34, and an Amperex Holland Bugle Boy GZ34 rectifier. I started with Sylvania 6DE7 drivers, but later went to RCA without a huge change.

 My WA6 is phenomenal with my Grado RS-1 and HD600. But it always seems to sound a little dark with my Edition 9 and D2000. 

 Tonight I tried rolling the 6DE7 tubes to brighten up my amp some, because I can't fit 6EW7 in it. I have the Sylvania 6DE7 that came with it, and also a pair of RCA, Raytheon and GE. I didn't get what I was looking for with any of the 6DE7 I have.

 So, I dropped a $15 5U4G in the thing and the treble perked up, with only a slight drop in tight bass control. Mids are still rich and smooth. So, this is weird because I think the rectifier makes a bigger difference than these 6DE7 tubes. Of course now I have to try all the driver tubes with this rectifier now.

 The big question now is, what will the Sofia Princess do for me, like will it tighten up the bass without taming the treble? Will it be safe to use it with the WA6 with the way Jack has it set up with the larger cap values than recommended for the Princess?


----------



## jamato8

It seems there are a number using the Princess with the large cap. I don't recommend it and think that the life will be shortened but that is my opinion. The Princess does an excellent job in all areas. 

 To a degree I think the rectifier does make a big difference but then I also have extra filtering in my amp so I don't get exactly the same sound as others. I hear a difference in the many different 6DE7's and rectifiers. I have been thinking of adding an inductor to my power supply but I get such a large venue with tight bass and great imaging that I am not sure if I will. The wheels are still turning in other areas of modification. 

 Without a doubt the biggest change is going to the pseudo dual power supply and as noticed, the difference in tubes is more noticable and rectifiers that were ok are now more noticable making it more enjoyable to tube roll.


----------



## atbglenn

I have to thank Jam for recommending the dual PS mod. It made a huge difference in the overall sound quality. I'm not very good at describing the sound changes in detail but I do notice my HD 650's are no longer veiled and the bass is tighter and deeper. It seems more effortless overall.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

If I only turn the amp on and off once a day, will that help the Sofia Princess last longer?

 I did hear a difference with the 4 pairs of different brand 6DE7, but none of them brightened up the amp like the 5U4G did. I know this rectifier is an upgrade to the stock 5AR4.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I only turn the amp on and off once a day, will that help the Sofia Princess last longer?

 I did hear a difference with the 4 pairs of different brand 6DE7, but none of them brightened up the amp like the 5U4G did. I know this rectifier is an upgrade to the stock 5AR4._

 

the brimar 5r4gy rect. will brighten up the sound some, but you may also want to
 consider the source and interconnects as way of fine tuning the tone with your
 ed. 9 cans.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I am using an Apogee mini-DAC with Synergistic Research Digital Coax with active shielding (fed by a Marantz CD5001) and then Anti-cables IC's, none of which have a problem with lack of brightness with any of my other amps. I have an XLR to RCA adapter that is pretty solid, so no worries there.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the Goldpoint ordered and on its way. 

 After the pseudo power supply change and the Mundorf silver and gold .22uf coupling cap change this amp has taken on an entirely different sound. It was fine before but the transparency, depth and liquidity is just Wow. The Mundorfs have been opening up today even more. Having never using the silver and gold before I don't know the time frame for them to fully blossom so this is new ground for me. There is a bell like natural quality. The noise floor also seems to have dropped totally away. The dynamics will startle you._

 


 Hi jamato8,

 what´s about your Mundorf silver/gold/oil ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you think, they sound better than the V-Caps?


----------



## jamato8

The V caps are very clean, articulate and accurate. They take over 1000 hours to form and even the manufacture has said hours like 2000 and this has been confirmed by a reviewer. 

 The Mundorf Silver, gold and oil are fine caps that let the music flow. I just like Mundorfs, not the gold and silver but the ones in either silver or silver and gold in oil. It is all little differences. 

 The best cap I think is the Audio Note Silver in oil but I can't, or won't spend the money. Maybe some day... . . They are something you would always take b ack out if selling the amp, at least I would as they are an investment.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The V caps are very clean, articulate and accurate. They take over 1000 hours to form and even the manufacture has said hours like 2000 and this has been confirmed by a reviewer. 

 The Mundorf Silver, gold and oil are fine caps that let the music flow. I just like Mundorfs, not the gold and silver but the ones in either silver or silver and gold in oil. It is all little differences. 

 The best cap I think is the Audio Note Silver in oil but I can't, or won't spend the money. Maybe some day... . . They are something you would always take b ack out if selling the amp, at least I would as they are an investment._

 


 You mean these here...







 for these "few bucks"... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 CAP-7840 35 mm x 75 mm 1.0 uF 500 volt £ 275.00

*Jesus !* Very heavy Cabs.
 But seriously... i ordered my WA6 with the V-Cabs and i would like to here your opinion to "Cap-Rolling".


----------



## jamato8

Ahhhh, nothing finer. 

 in .22 though, smaller and less costly. Oh but for the money. 

 I just went from a 5U4G/VT Sylvania, a very good rectifier back to my GZ34 metal base and what a difference. Better depth, bass, everything. The amp sounded good with the 5U4G but the pseudo supply really gets to the root of everything. It dissects the sound, which I like as it is musical but revealing.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahhhh, nothing finer. 

 in .22 though, smaller and less costly. Oh but for the money. 

 I just went from a 5U4G/VT Sylvania, a very good rectifier back to my GZ34 metal base and what a difference. Better depth, bass, everything. The amp sounded good with the 5U4G but the pseudo supply really gets to the root of everything. It dissects the sound, which I like as it is musical but revealing._

 

OK,

 CAP-7810 40 mm x 35 mm 0.22 uF 500 volt £ 121.00

 That´s 239,00 USD or 154,00 EURO... Cool 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... and what´s about your Sophia Princess 274B ?


----------



## jamato8

Ahhhh. the Sophia Princess mesh plate . . . :^), she be fine. 

 Yes, thank the audio god we have a very, very fine rectifier on the market again and it can be purchased new!


----------



## dvb-projekt

Aren´t you interesed to test the Emission Labs 274B or the 5U4G? I think you are the man, who has the biggest experience with Tubes!!


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aren´t you interesed to test the Emission Labs 274B or the 5U4G? I think you are the man, who has the biggest experience with Tubes!!_

 

What is the cost on the Emission Labs 274B and 5U4G ? I can't seem to locate any prices


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the cost on the Emission Labs 274B and 5U4G ? I can't seem to locate any prices_

 

In the US you have 2 resellers:

 1. TUBESUSA in New York

 2. MR Music Reference in California


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the US you have 2 resellers:

 1. TUBESUSA in New York

 2. MR Music Reference in California_

 

Thanks! tubeusa is close the where I live. I wonder how the mesh plate 5U4G would sound in the woo?


----------



## dvb-projekt

Yes,
 both are very interesting. 

 My WA6 had run only about 30-40 hours, so it is too early to compare another rectifier to my Sophia Princess 274B...


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes,
 both are very interesting. 

 My WA6 had run only about 30-40 hours, so it is too early to compare another rectifier to my Sophia Princess 274B... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The Sophia Princess 274B is supposed to be one of the best rectifiers. I'm sure your WA6 sounds pretty damn good :


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Sophia Princess 274B is supposed to be one of the best rectifiers. I'm sure your WA6 sounds pretty damn good :
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I am very happy at this early time, but i´m also open for any other experiences with other rectifier witch we all can buy complete new!


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am very happy at this early time, but i´m also open for any other experiences with other rectifier witch we all can buy complete new!_

 

I just won these 5R4GY on ebay for $16 Two are by RCA, and one is by Ken-Rad. I wonder how they will sound? It's a cheap gamble.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just won these 5R4GY on ebay for $16 Two are by RCA, and one is by Ken-Rad. I wonder how they will sound? It's a cheap gamble.





_

 

Nice looking tubes. If they don't have heavy use they should be nice. Please get back with how they sound. 

 I am noticing more and more that with the pseudo dual supply that the sound characteristics are more and more obvious with rectifiers.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! tubeusa is close the where I live. I wonder how the mesh plate 5U4G would sound in the woo?_

 

Looks like some nice tubes but I don't get the prices. I know how much stuff costs and the cost that ends up here in the states is ridiculous but I don't know a good way around it unless somehow people in general said, Yes will buy the tube but get the price in line with a profit that is justified.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice looking tubes. If they don't have heavy use they should be nice. Please get back with how they sound. 

 I am noticing more and more that with the pseudo dual supply that the sound characteristics are more and more obvious with rectifiers._

 


 He claims that they all test above the middle of the "GOOD" range on his Knight 600 tester. If that is an indication... I have to get my own tube tester. I'd hate to put a shorted tube in my WA6. That would really suck


----------



## jamato8

Oh I doubt they will short in your amp but even tubes that test good does not indicate how they perform in the sound department. Only you will know that after using them.

 As an example, I have two GZ34 metal base here. One is used with 1000's of hour of use and it measures new, the same as a NOS one I have here but they sound different. They are the same plant and same year but with use the AC rectification changes some due to internal resistance of the tube changing and cathode changes. The NOS sounds just a little bit better. It is always nice to have a reference tube on hand but that comes with time.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like some nice tubes but I don't get the prices. I know how much stuff costs and the cost that ends up here in the states is ridiculous but I don't know a good way around it unless somehow people in general said, Yes will buy the tube but get the price in line with a profit that is justified._

 

Unfortunately it's what the market will bare. I don't get the prices either. Seems like there are more than enough people willing to pay the price. I'd have to get really drunk before I placed my order


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like some nice tubes but I don't get the prices. I know how much stuff costs and the cost that ends up here in the states is ridiculous but I don't know a good way around it unless somehow people in general said, Yes will buy the tube but get the price in line with a profit that is justified._

 

The problem at the moment is the Euro/Dollar currency! 
 The price here in Germany is 152,00 Euros for the 274B-Mash and 164,00 Euros for the 5U4G-Mash plus shipping.


----------



## atbglenn

Jam,

 Did you ever wear out a tube socket with all the tube rolling you do?
 I try to keep my rolling to a minimum because I worry about loosening the connection between the tube and the socket causing intermittent problems 

 Glenn


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem at the moment is the Euro/Dollar currency! 
 The price here in Germany is 152,00 Euros for the 274B-Mash and 164,00 Euros for the 5U4G-Mash plus shipping. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

It is more than that. When I was in China I could buy things that are the same as exported for less than half price and good profit was being made.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jam,

 Did you ever wear out a tube socket with all the tube rolling you do?
 I try to keep my rolling to a minimum because I worry about loosening the connection between the tube and the socket causing intermittent problems 

 Glenn_

 

I have replaced sockets on tube testers but they had been used thousands of times. On our amps I wouldn't worry about it and if they are even lose they are easy to tighten up with a tiny screw driver by carefully wedging the driver between the socket wall and the contacts. It is easy to do.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is more than that. When I was in China I could buy things that are the same as exported for less than half price and good profit was being made._

 

I was surprised that the 5U4G price is higher than the 274B. I thought that the 274B is better in SQ than the 5U4G...


----------



## jamato8

I don't know, it is also the materials and so on. There isn't any reason the 274B should sound better. It is also dependent upon the circuit. The prices again, IMO are ridiculous but we pay them.


----------



## Ragonix

Jamato, I thought you said you were going to try and get a picture of your modified W6.


----------



## jamato8

Well I have been looking for a camera and also, since mine is a type of prototype, I am not real proud of the work but it is typical of working on something an making adjustments etc. I once saw an amp that looked like hell from a respected maker that was a prototype. It was being posted as an example of his work. I thought, How stupid, it is obviously a prototype and this is the way they look. I found it insulting that someone was trying to use a prototype image to discredit the manufacture.

 I will try and get one though. I just am having such a fantastic time listening to the Grateful Dead live stuff on it. The sound is utterly fantastic with the Edition 9's.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As an update to my updates. I am using the 6EW7 right now, which I had not tried since doing the pseudo dual supply. I can now really tell the difference in sound from the 6EW7 and 6DE7. The 6EW7 really has some great spatial qualities and fleshes out the 3D effect often brought about by tubes._

 

What brands of 6DE7 and 6EW7 do you recommend - beyond the stock Sylvanias.

 My Maxed WA6 is in process.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What brands of 6DE7 and 6EW7 do you recommend - beyond the stock Sylvanias.

 My Maxed WA6 is in process._

 

I have the model that requires the small tube 6EW7 and the only ones I have found are RCA but they are good. Nice detail, large soundstage and quality bass. With 6DE7's you get many varieties from RCA to GE to Sylvania to others. Some are just rebranded GE. There are also versions without the plate between the two sections. I prefer the version with the plate for better isolation of the two sections of the tube. What ones may or may not have that varies and really requires asking the seller if the two section have a plate between them. Then there are all black plate versions and grey plate and black plate in the same tube. Since they should not be very expensive it is worthwhile picking up some pairs of different constructions and brands. Westinghouse and Admiral didn't make their own tubes so they will be rebrands and later in the tube history companies were rebranding other companies so I like to get early versions, which isn't always easy to tell what is what. If this is unclear it is because things in tube production often weren't clear and it requires studying certain versions and buying some and going from there.


----------



## atbglenn

Gradofan2,

 Good luck with your new WOO. Hey that rhymes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure you'll love it!

 Glenn


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gradofan2,

 Good luck with your new WOO. Hey that rhymes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure you'll love it!

 Glenn_

 

Any more impressions after the dual power supply was installed?


----------



## jamato8

I hadn't cleaned the connections for the IC's in a while for the 6 and the dac so I did so. It is amazing how much music can get trapped. I am getting, on the Grateful Dead, Closing of Winterland 1978, sound to the far right and far left, well outside my head and in front. Very speaker or live music like. It is almost distracting since I normally get excellent sound that is very dimensional but this just goes deeper and wider in the recording venue. The spatial effect is also increased. I used pure alcohol as I always do. I used to use Siltec but found that after a short while transparency was lost. I just haven't found any treatment over the years to have a lasting effect, though I wish I could as it makes since.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The V caps are very clean, articulate and accurate. They take over 1000 hours to form and even the manufacture has said hours like 2000 and this has been confirmed by a reviewer. 

 The Mundorf Silver, gold and oil are fine caps that let the music flow. I just like Mundorfs, not the gold and silver but the ones in either silver or silver and gold in oil. It is all little differences. 

 The best cap I think is the Audio Note Silver in oil but I can't, or won't spend the money. Maybe some day... . . They are something you would always take b ack out if selling the amp, at least I would as they are an investment._

 


 Did you hear sometimes the Audio Note Caps, perhaps comparing to other ?


----------



## jamato8

Ok, here are some shots of my WA 6:






 Kiwame resistors, Black Gate polar and a couple of nonpolar Black Gates. Soft oxygen free wire copper wire. 






 No, I didn't dust the amp off very well. The volume knob is a custom made one from Goldpoint. They are very fine turned from solid aluminum and finally finished. 






 Last image of the 274B as it gets darker with use. The top has remained fairly clear. This tube is a perforated plate and not a true mesh plate, which is interwoven wire.


----------



## penger

Don't see the pictures. =(


----------



## jamato8

They are from my pbase site and come right up on my monitor. Ok, posted them from another site that always works. Ok? :^)


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are from my pbase site and come right up on my monitor. Ok, posted them from another site that always works. Ok? :^)_

 

So... with all those components packed in there so tightly - does it get pretty warm? So warm that it migh shorten component life?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So... with all those components packed in there so tightly - does it get pretty warm? So warm that it migh shorten component life?_

 

Very good point. I have taken it apart after a few hours and they are no warmer than when it was stock and I did the same thing. My preference would be to have the amp vented at the top, and the natural flow would be up and around the tubes which would cool the internals and the air past the tubes would cool them to an extent as well. If I had my drill press it would be done. By having this venting there would be two very good things by cooling inside and the tubes due to convection. I have felt the Black Gates and they aren't all that warm since the amp is vented on the bottom plate with many holes.


----------



## atbglenn

It sure is packed tightly. Nicely laid out though. Are the input jacks fastened ? They look like they're angled a bit. What pot are you using?


----------



## jamato8

I am using the Goldpoint. The RCA's are bent because UPS dropped the box but they work fine. I have never taken off the back plate to straighten it out because I haven't felt the need to as it is cosmetic. 

 Yep, packed. With a 274B, which draws 2 amps for the heater vs 3 amps for a 5U4G the unit runs cooler because there is less heat generated heat from the toroid transformer.


----------



## atbglenn

John, I'll bet Jack would send you a new back panel if you asked. My WA6 transformer cover only gets luke warm after it's been on all night. It's a far cry from the Little Dot 2++ I had which could probably cook eggs after it's been on for a couple of hours.


----------



## jamato8

Yeah, with the GZ34, which draw 1.9 amps or the 274B, which draws 2 amps the 6 runs pretty cool but does get hotter with a 5U4G, which draws 3 amps. 

 Yes, maybe he would but it isn't really needed.


----------



## musicmind

Thanks for the pics John.
 The 274B discolouration was quite interesting to see. Perhaps I missed where you wrote this, but how many hours have you logged on your 274B?


----------



## jamato8

I don't know for sure, maybe 500. I have seen it before inside of tube. It is impurities. Some of my old mesh plates from the late 1920's and early 30 have it but normally they have been used very hard. My Sylvanias and Philcos of the same period don't do this other brands can. If I get an EML 274B I will see how it does.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the pics John.
 The 274B discolouration was quite interesting to see. Perhaps I missed where you wrote this, but how many hours have you logged on your 274B?_

 

Good question. I was wondering that myself

 Edit: John, you type too fast!


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know for sure, maybe 500. I have seen it before inside of tube. It is impurities. Some of my old mesh plates from the late 1920's and early 30 have it but normally they have been used very hard. My Sylvanias and Philcos of the same period don't do this other brands can. If I get an EML 274B I will see how it does._

 

Thanks John. Given the number of WA6 + Sophia 274B users, I would think that more people will be seeing this discolouration, if it is something inherent to the Sophia or its manufacturing process.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, here are some shots of my WA 6:

 Kiwame resistors, Black Gate polar and a couple of nonpolar Black Gates. Soft oxygen free wire copper wire. _

 

Nice internal shot! Could I just add that Goldpoint attenuator without any modification and use it with the original volume knob?

 I'm going the same route as takezo and I'm implementing this configuration:
  Code:


```
[left]rect > 22uf/350 > left > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > tube right > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > tube[/left]
```

I like your 22uF cap placement, too


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice internal shot! Could I just add that Goldpoint attenuator without any modification and use it with the original volume knob?

 I'm going the same route as takezo and I'm implementing this configuration:
  Code:



		Code:
	

[left]rect > 22uf/350 > left > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > tube right > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 500ohm > 220uf/200 > tube[/left]


I like your 22uF cap placement, too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, you will just have modify the hole a little but it will work. I would come off of the second cap (the first pairs) for the driver section instead of the the current setup with the driver section of the tube coming off of the rectifier. This will give you more filtering for the DC of the driver section and works very well.


----------



## jamato8

Here is a closer image of the front section of the tube coming off of the second cap in the supply for the power section of the 6DE7. The I used the solder points on the socket for the rectifier that is not used to hold the resistor. 






 The 1K resistor mounts to a blank tab and gets its voltage from the second cap and then goes to a nonpolar cap and on to a 47K resistor which supplies the driver section of the tube with 75 volts.

 Yes, the resistors are close but they don't get that hot. I have divided the power section resistors to a 560 and a 360 or 340 (whatever it comes in) and because the power supply now has 4 resistor vs the 1 of the original and 2 of a simple divided network, none of them get all that hot.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, you will just have modify the hole a little but it will work. I would come off of the second cap (the first pairs) for the driver section instead of the the current setup with the driver section of the tube coming off of the rectifier. This will give you more filtering for the DC of the driver section and works very well._

 

So, instead from rectifier, it should be like:

  Code:


```
[left]rect > 22uf/350 > left > 2K > 150uF/350v > 56K > power tube right > 2K > 150uF/350v > 56K > power tube[/left]
```

OR
  Code:


```
[left]rect > 22uf/350 > left 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 1.5K > 150uF/350v > 56K > power tube right 500ohm > 220uf/200 > 1.5K > 150uF/350v > 56K > power tube[/left]
```

What resistor values would you recommend for my setup?

 My current setup:


----------



## takezo

jantze;4656979 said:
			
		

> So, instead from rectifier, it should be like:
> 
> Code:
> 
> ...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





_

 

very impressive use of space and the super e configurations is too cool!
 yes, dividing up the resistors definitely diffuses the heat points in this unit
 the caps never get beyond warm... awesome job john.


----------



## jamato8

Thanks.

 I explored the 6 more last night and realized that the internal plate is about 1/4 of an inch from the top plate and does not touch the sides of the chassis so it does allow venting through the top around the rectifier and the two front tubes. This is good and pretty well does it for the venting needed since the bottom of the 6 has many vents. 

 I have found the Sophia Princess a must and will have the EML 274B in a few days (too much money but if it is better then maybe now and hopefully it will hold up well). 

 The EML 5U4G mesh plate and the 274B are the same tube with just the filament current being different. A higher filament current can give more power but I also notice the extra amp produces more heat and don't feel the difference, if there is any, is worth it.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jantze, for me, the main PS section is:

 rect. > 22 C > right > 560 ohm R > 220 C > 330 ohm R > 220 C > 6de7
 ___________> left > same

 for the front section, instead of coming off the rectifier socket, i've
 moved the resistors to the first 220 C of the main PS section.

 rect. > 22 C > right > 560 ohm R > 220 C (split here)
 ______________________________ I
 _____________________________ 1K ohm R > 150 C > 56K ohm > 6de7

 do the same for left

 for resistor values you can use the classic formula for resistance in parallel:

 1/R(total) = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 +...

 of course for series you just add up the values:

 R(total) = R1 + R2 + R3 +...

 jack and his partners have 500 total ohms for the main PS section and
 29K total ohms for the front sections. as you can see from john's pics he's
 lowered the total ohms for the front section some what. this should increase
 the B+ voltage and increase dynamics and soundstage... john would be better
 at explaining his findings.


 hope this helps_

 

Thank you! It helped a lot, again.
 Correct parts ordered


----------



## jamato8

The EML 274B arrived. My god what a tube. Thick glass and the packaging!! It is like getting a high end piece of any equipment. The box is nicer than any other tube I have ever received. Unbelievable. 

 The sound, different than the Princess. Rich harmonics and realism. Very, very interesting. More later.

 Oh, and each tube has its own serial number.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EML 274B arrived. My god what a tube. Thick glass and the packaging!! It is like getting a high end piece of any equipment. The box is nicer than any other tube I have ever received. Unbelievable. 

 The sound, different than the Princess. Rich harmonics and realism. Very, very interesting. More later.

 Oh, and each tube has its own serial number._

 

Interesting....I'm all ears you might say, WRT the SQ difference of the EML vs Sophia E 274B... I'm still sitting on the fence about the 2 mesh plates. My head and wallet say Sophia, my heart and ears say EML...figures 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Like your mod work J, very well done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EML 274B arrived. My god what a tube. Thick glass and the packaging!! It is like getting a high end piece of any equipment. The box is nicer than any other tube I have ever received. Unbelievable. 

 The sound, different than the Princess. Rich harmonics and realism. Very, very interesting. More later.

 Oh, and each tube has its own serial number._

 

John,

 Take some pictures, including a nighttime shot of the filament glowing.

 Glenn


----------



## jamato8

This is one BIG tube. The Sophia is large but the EML is about 2cm taller and has an unusual shape. The glass is also thicker. The box it came in has the serial number on the outside hand written in as well as other information that goes with this tube.


----------



## jamato8

The bass sounded good and so did the rest of the sound and then down it went. The bass got sloppy and uncontrolled and the highs were over accentuated. Now after just a few hours it is settling back in and sound very open. We shall see. this is on the EML 274B of course. 

 I just realized how much I have spent on rectifiers for this amp. Am I crazy???

 Oh, and I got a 5G4Y today. A very old Tungsol brown base. Very, very nice!


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EML 274B arrived. My god what a tube. Thick glass and the packaging!! It is like getting a high end piece of any equipment. The box is nicer than any other tube I have ever received. Unbelievable. 

 The sound, different than the Princess. Rich harmonics and realism. Very, very interesting. More later.

 Oh, and each tube has its own serial number._

 


 Hi John,

 i hope, i don´t promise to much in my review from the EML 274B!


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi John,

 i hope, i don´t promise to much in my review from the EML 274B! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

We shall see. :^)

 Large tube, large sound. Well that isn't how it normally works but the sound is powerful and the bass is strong and authoritative. I am still not sure if it is a bit overdone in the bass or if that will change as the tube still has just a few hours on it.


----------



## dvb-projekt

So as you say, let´s sit and wait and hear...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I want you to say the Sophia Princess is good enough...


----------



## jamato8

So far I would say it is. I am not liking the bass nor refinement of the EML. I hope with burn in this will change.

 edit: the bass is changing for the good. This tube needs more time.


----------



## jamato8

At this point the EML 274B does not seem to pair well with the 6. On my 6 the bass has poor control and smears the lower mid frequencies. This is after the amp has warmed up, which to me points out that the tube may be drawing too much current for the heater and the B+ drops but the sound isn't good.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At this point the EML 274B does not seem to pair well with the 6. On my 6 the bass has poor control and smears the lower mid frequencies. This is after the amp has warmed up, which to me points out that the tube may be drawing too much current for the heater and the B+ drops but the sound isn't good._

 

Hi John,

 witch driver/power Tubes are you using?

 For my review i use the 6EW7 Raython, that Jack send me. This combination was realy fantastic. 
 I buy also a pair NOS RCA 6EW7 big bottle from the 60´s. They are much smaler in the bass.

 Do you have the standard Fuse in your WA6?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Jam, how long does it take to burn in the Sophia Princess?


----------



## jamato8

About 50 hours or so I found it to smooth out and be very open. Sophia electric says 100 hours.


----------



## jamato8

I got about 6 or 7 very old rectifiers today I bought off of ebay. Nice. An old RCA 5R4GY, some very old Philcos with unusual charcoal black plates and a few others. They all sound good. I will have to compare to the Princess. The EML still sucks. If it doesn't get better what a sorry waste of money for me. It is possible someone else will have great luck with it. It does look spectacular.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, I have 6 hours on the Sophia, and it is sounding good with RS-1 and HD600, but the bass is somewhat uncontrolled with my Edition 9. The Sylvania ST bottle 5U4G is the best one with Edition 9 so far.

 I'll have it up to 100 hours by next weekend, but with the RS-1 (APS V3 cable) I could tell an immediate improvement in refinement and soundstage on the WA6 maxed with PDPS.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EML still sucks. If it doesn't get better what a sorry waste of money for me. It is possible someone else will have great luck with it. It does look spectacular._

 

Very weird. OK, my experiences are with my GS1000 but i think that make not that difference.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very weird. OK, my experiences are with my GS1000 but i think that make not that difference._

 

Was the tube pretty good for you right off or did you notice any burn in period? I have worked with tubes for years and normally there are some changes but not huge changes so I am not sure what to expect here unless there is something very different about the metallurgy.

 As others have said, there are some deals out there. I am using an old Philco straight tube, about the diameter of a gz34 but taller and the sound is excellent. It wasn't cheap, around 25 dollars, well I guess that isn't bad but I remember not too long ago they would go for 4 or 5 dollars. Very, very nice.


----------



## atbglenn

John,

 Have you been listening to the RCA 5R4GY? If so what do you think of it.


----------



## takezo

wow, thanks for the honest impressions john. i was set to order one
 if you'd thought it was a winner on the wa6 but now i think i'll
 hold off on the emission lab's 274b... but could it be that you'd
 receive a bad tube? i have 5 metal base and they all sound a little
 different from each other... maybe you should ask the dealer to
 swap it for another one... if worse comes to worse, you can always
 sell it on ebay to recoup some of the money...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was the tube pretty good for you right off or did you notice any burn in period? I have worked with tubes for years and normally there are some changes but not huge changes so I am not sure what to expect here unless there is something very different about the metallurgy.

 As others have said, there are some deals out there. I am using an old Philco straight tube, about the diameter of a gz34 but taller and the sound is excellent. It wasn't cheap, around 25 dollars, well I guess that isn't bad but I remember not too long ago they would go for 4 or 5 dollars. Very, very nice._

 

Well,

 I AM hearing big changes in the Sophia Princess at 19 hours. Went to sleep last night and the Edition 9 bass was still flabby and overpowering, and now it is just wonderful today with my first listen after a 12 hour break. Same music, same already burned-in CD/DAC/ICs/Amp/Headphones - the only thing different is the hours on the tube.

 I am liking it a lot.


----------



## jamato8

I have Nothing to complain about with the Princess. An excellent tube. 

 Taking some more time today to try the EML again. My old Philco nos 5U4G with plates that look like they were made in the 1800's sound great. I have thought of some more modifications but have to think through it some more.

 edit: I think the bass is tightening up on the EML. I hope. If this occurs then it will get out of the way of the music and could open up. I will keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was the tube pretty good for you right off or did you notice any burn in period? I have worked with tubes for years and normally there are some changes but not huge changes so I am not sure what to expect here unless there is something very different about the metallurgy.

 As others have said, there are some deals out there. I am using an old Philco straight tube, about the diameter of a gz34 but taller and the sound is excellent. It wasn't cheap, around 25 dollars, well I guess that isn't bad but I remember not too long ago they would go for 4 or 5 dollars. Very, very nice._

 

Hi John,

 i had no problems from the start with the EML! The differences to the Sophia i wrote im my review were with about 2-3 hours on it.
 Now i had round about 100 hours on the EML and it sound realy fantastic with my 6EW7 Raython from Jack.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi John,

 i had no problems from the start with the EML! The differences to the Sophia i wrote im my review were with about 2-3 hours on it.
 Now i had round about 100 hours on the EML and it sound realy fantastic with my 6EW7 Raython from Jack._

 

Yeah, I asked Tubesusa to take some measurements but they are out of the tubes right now. Well I will keep listening. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## takezo

john, from what you're describing it reminds me of the valveart 274b
 and sylvania 274b i used to have... great big soundstage and headroom
 accompanied by a muddy bass region... never did clear up but the
 sylvania was slightly better than the valveart... i remember it did
 sound ok with the akg701 but unacceptable with the senn 650...
 btw, the valveart died on me only after about 4 mos... started
 making mechanical noises followed by popping sounds...

 hope it goes well with the emission 274b...


----------



## jamato8

Well I shall see. I don't think they will swap. They said that maybe come circuit changes would help. Yeah right. I have many tubes and a tube made to spec and used the circuit for that tube will work. If the tube is out of spec then changing everything for that tube is a bit over the top. 

 I have the RCA 5R4GY but need to listen to it more. It is a nice NOS.

 The EML is starting to sound very different. The bass is gone, I mean gone but the sound has cleaned up. Funny because I haven't had a tube do this much gymnastics. Well I will continue to listen, at least it is changing.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_btw, the valveart died on me only after about 4 mos... started
 making mechanical noises followed by popping sounds...

 hope it goes well with the emission 274b..._

 


 if not, he had 1 year guarantee. So he can relax


----------



## jamato8

Yes, the EML has the one year warranty as long as the correct operating points are observed. 

 The sound on the EML is changing. As I have stated, I haven't had a tube do this many changes. Anyway it is built like a tank as far as tubes go and may just take more time.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the EML has the one year warranty as long as the correct operating points are observed. 

 The sound on the EML is changing. As I have stated, I haven't had a tube do this many changes. Anyway it is built like a tank as far as tubes go and may just take more time._

 

I've never had a tube make as many changes during burn-in as this Sophia Princess. 

 Now with 42 hours on it the bass on my Edition 9 is totally different on my WA6 vs new with ZERo hours, being tight and controlled vs loose and flabby at first. The treble has always been nice with this tube, and better than my Bugle Boy or Philips metal base GZ34. The lower mids were too forward at ZERO hours and are now opening up nicely, and soundstage is already matching my Single POwer Square Wave XL balanced. 

 For the first time, my Edition 9 via WA6 sound better than my Balanced SR-325i. And, for the first time I think I may actually like the Edition 9 on the WA6 better than on the Single Power Sq Wave XL, as they seem slightly more alive and vibrant, with more powerful but controlled bass. The Sq Wave is very good with these headphones, and makes them more neutral and accurate I think, while the WA6 still has them colored but in a good way.

 I still have 58 more hours to reach the Sophia recommended burn-in of 100 hours, so we'll see if this holds up. If it stays like this or gets better (not worse) I will be thrilled, and can whole heartedly recommend the WA6 maxed with PDPS for running Edition 9 headphones. And, it still sounds great with my RS-1 and HD600!


----------



## jamato8

Yep, that is much of what I hear form the Princess. So I was all "ears" when the EML with true mesh plates could/might be even better. Well at this point it isn't. I put the Sophia back in and there is that magic and you have described the acoustical attributes of the tube and 6 in combo very well.

 edit: Yes, please continue! the EML is starting to get more delicate and portray the micro dynamics to a much better degree. The mids aren't in my face now. I am used to caps forming but the dramatic changes in this tube is very interesting. The way it is built, the solid thick glass and hopefully high vacuum, which is what made many Japanese tubes very good could make this a real winner and a long lasting tube. Well as usual, I will wait and see and report what I hear.


----------



## mmwwhats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using an old Philco straight tube, about the diameter of a gz34 but taller and the sound is excellent. It wasn't cheap, around 25 dollars, well I guess that isn't bad but I remember not too long ago they would go for 4 or 5 dollars. Very, very nice._

 

What kind of tube is the Philco? gz34, 5u4g...?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What kind of tube is the Philco? gz34, 5u4g...?_

 

Sorry, it is a 5U4GB. They didn't made gz34's.


----------



## mmwwhats

Just picked up a Philco 5u4gb on ebay for $5... not a bad deal. There's another on there for $9.


----------



## musicmind

I think those 5$ ones were used though.


----------



## mmwwhats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think those 5$ ones were used though._

 

I think it is used... but it's also $5.


----------



## musicmind

Indeed. Let us know how it sounds. My Sylvania 5u4gb is the one I like the most with classical. Hope to try out a few more 5u4gb from other brands.


----------



## mmwwhats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Sylvania 5u4gb is the one I like the most with classical._

 

Not sure how true it is, but one seller is claiming that the Philco 5u4gb's are rebranded Sylvanias. I wonder...


----------



## takezo

what did you guys pay for the EML 274B? i spoke with george of
 tubeusa and he gave a figure of $240 for tube and shipping... kind of
 high isn't it, unless it's nextday delivery...

 roger of ramlabs-musicreference in california wants $195 per tube
 but hasn't gotten back to me on the sum total. 

http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/emlframe.html

 not sure which way to go; sophia princess or the eml...


----------



## atbglenn

Roger Modjeski happens to be a very nice guy. I dealt with him back in the 90's when I purchased a Music Reference RM 9 power amp from him. At the time he was very accommodating.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed. Let us know how it sounds. My Sylvania 5u4gb is the one I like the most with classical. Hope to try out a few more 5u4gb from other brands._

 

My Sylvania 5U4G (not sure if B or not) is one of my Favorites too, till I got the Sophia Princess from Jack for about $150 + shipping. It sounds better than my RCA or Sovtek.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think it is used... but it's also $5._

 

The tube can measure new but when used can still sound much different than a NOS that you burn in. You never know how many hours are on the tube and depending upon how it was used can change how it performs.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmwwhats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure how true it is, but one seller is claiming that the Philco 5u4gb's are rebranded Sylvanias. I wonder..._

 

Philco used a lot of Sylvania tubes. The 1929 and up nice mesh plate 27's branded Philco are Sylvania. But the Philco tubes I got are unlike any Sylvania I have seen.


----------



## musicmind

Takezo, I also was quoted a similar figure, but in my case the price was for international shipping. Not sure why you were quoted 40$ for delivery within in the US.

 Any thoughts about the TJ Full Music 274B tubes?

 A recent 6moons review of a Yamamoto amp had a sidebar which showed the TJ FullMusic tube manufacturing facilities and from what I could tell, they have been in the business for a long time and make good quality tubes. I'm not sure if there is any difference between the Sophia branded tubes they make and their own TJ branded tubes. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what did you guys pay for the EML 274B? i spoke with george of
 tubeusa and he gave a figure of $240 for tube and shipping... kind of
 high isn't it, unless it's nextday delivery...

 roger of ramlabs-musicreference in california wants $195 per tube
 but hasn't gotten back to me on the sum total. 

http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/emlframe.html

 not sure which way to go; sophia princess or the eml..._


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Takezo, I also was quoted a similar figure, but in my case the price was for international shipping. Not sure why you were quoted 40$ for delivery within in the US.

 Any thoughts about the TJ Full Music 274B tubes?

 A recent 6moons review of a Yamamoto amp had a sidebar which showed the TJ FullMusic tube manufacturing facilities and from what I could tell, they have been in the business for a long time and make good quality tubes. I'm not sure if there is any difference between the Sophia branded tubes they make and their own TJ branded tubes._

 

yeah, $40 for shipping and handling... i guess ny to l.a. is kinda like international
 shipping... lol... they're probably just trying to milk it for all it's worth
 while the getting is good... 
 he mentioned that he recently had a rush order of the 274b and that 
 he had to order more than 15 tubes just to catch up to the demand... 

 anyways, from all that i could gather, and i may be mistaken, the tj full music
 274b tubes are made in china by a well known tubemaker there and that all
 of the sophia 274b, that includes both the standard and princess, are just
 re-brands of the tj full music tube. sophia's electric wouldn't respond to my
 inquiry several months ago but from what i've read, the internal construction
 of the standard, princess and the tj full music are completely identical...
 my guess is that the princess version are hand-picked for superior sonics from
 the batch that sophia receives from china... i repeat this is just my guess.
 the only way to find out for certain is to purchase all 3... but what's the point?
 as long as the princess sound great i'd gladly pay the extra $15 for the better
 performing tube from the same batch. saves us the trouble of having to buy
 several to pick them out ourselves...

 btw, the valveart 274b is a rebrand of the shuguang chinese version that
 goes for aroung $10-$18 on some websites... i had one and it sounded decent...
 but died on me after about 4 months of light playing... still not bad for the price.

 PS: musicmind has kindly indicated, correctly, that TJ full music has another
 version of the 274b, the N+, that is different in internal construction from the
 princess and their N model. another choice to add to the mix...


----------



## dvb-projekt

Hi @ all.

 Now it happend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am going to upgrade and have ordered a very special WA5-LE from Jack.
 He make all my wishes come true and build a custom version for me.
 Stay tuned and wait for the pictures.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That´s why i selling my WA6 extreme maxxed. If you are interested, you could see it *HERE*

 Cheers, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Oliver


----------



## dan_can

Mind telling us more in detail about the customization?


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvb-projekt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 That´s why i sold my WA6 extreme maxxed. If you are interested, you could see it *HERE*

 Cheers, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Oliver_

 

Sold or selling? 

 BTW That Emission Labs 274B is the most amazing looking tube I ever saw.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sold or selling? 

 BTW That Emission Labs 274B is the most amazing looking tube I ever saw._

 

Selling !!


----------



## jamato8

I am using a nice JAN (joint army navy) 5R4GY. What great dynamic clean sound. Extremely enjoyable.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using a nice JAN (joint army navy) 5R4GY. What great dynamic clean sound. Extremely enjoyable._

 

What brand... Philips, Sylvania, other?

 And... where can you buy them?


----------



## jamato8

I get most of my tubes off of Ebay but then I have been buying there for years and you have to know what to look for and questions to ask to get a good tube. 

 The two I just got are RCA nos. I find the amp does better with rectifier that draw 2 amps vs some of the tubes that draw 3 amps for the filament even though the amp is rated up to 3 amps. The 5V4 is a 3 amp and then there is a 274B n+ from China that pulls 4 amps.

 I got a tube from ebay last week and the getter was gone. The tube looked fine and many people would have gone ahead and used it but the tube isn't any good. I contacted the seller because this is a bottom getter tube and might be easy to not realize the getter had been used up and he refunded my money. I explained what he needed to look for since he appeared to be new to tubes and he had located a bunch he wanted to sell. Sometimes the getter turns white and this is very observable but sometimes it dissipates slowly over time and thins and thins and then is gone and no more silver getter because the tube has gotten gassy by leaking in outside air or maybe it was that way in the beginning.


----------



## fc911c

Here is my modded WA6. I'd like to thank John for all his help.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fc911c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is my modded WA6. I'd like to thank John for all his help._

 


 Nice job


----------



## fc911c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice job 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

well thanks


----------



## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fc911c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is my modded WA6. I'd like to thank John for all his help._

 

You had Jack mod the WA6 to Jamato's design right? How much did that cost?


----------



## fc911c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ragonix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You had Jack mod the WA6 to Jamato's design right? How much did that cost?_

 

Hi

 no I did the work myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Frank


----------



## jamato8

Nice job. Please report what you hear and if you think it was worth it. With an upgrade to the coupling caps a further refinement should be noted but that is up to your ear.


----------



## fc911c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Nice job. Please report what you hear and if you think it was worth it. With an upgrade to the coupling caps a further refinement should be noted but that is up to your ear._

 

Thanks John, I sure will report back. Soon as I have some extra cash I will do the coupling caps.

 Frank


----------



## yoff

Hello , my WA6-SE has arrived with a Sophia Electric 274B rectifier as ordered but without the stock one . I am a little bit disappointed because I will not be able to compare them and have no spare bulb to rely on in case something happens .
 Anyway , the amp sounds great and I enjoy it very much .
 The LOW headphone socket seems the best choice to plug in my Grado GS 1000 : is it ok ?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello , my WA6-SE has arrived with a Sophia Electric 274B rectifier as ordered but without the stock one . I am a little bit disappointed because I will not be able to compare them .
 Anyway , the amp sounds great and I enjoy it very much .
 The LOW headphone socket seems the best choice to plug in my Grado GS 1000 : is it ok ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Is what ok? You can use whatever socket sounds the best. 

 It seems like you should have received the standard tube as well since it is in the price of the amp. Maybe they forgot it. I would email and ask.


----------



## yoff

That is what I intend to do !


----------



## takezo

you should've received the stock tube or credit for it. i'm sure
 jack will do the right thing.

 please give us your impression when you're ready. with my gs1000
 the gz30 and the 5v4g rca brand from the 40's seem to have the
 best synergy. the tube characteristics tame the highs of the 
 gs1000 and provide a more forward presentation of the mids, 
 something the gs1000 is often associated with as being recessed... have fun.

 the gz37 fat bottle is great with the gs1000 too! fantastic mids and bass...


----------



## jamato8

I am still preferring the Sophia Princess 274B to the EML. I find the Princess to be more delicate at information retrieval and the bass has more slam and is better defined. This is not what I expected. I will continue to run the EML. It is interesting as the EML doesn't get all that hot and I can put my fingers on the glass while it is on but not my tongue.


----------



## yoff

Jack offered to send $15 to cover the cost of the stock tube but I told him it is not the point as I expected to compare the two tubes and have one as a spare . Anyway it is no big deal .

 About the "*gz30 and the 5v4g rca brand from the 40's*" and the "*gz37 fat bottle*" , thank you to offer your experience in pairing the WA6 and GS 1000 .


----------



## jamato8

I like the 5R4Gy RCA a lot. The tube isn't too expensive and has many good qualities I like to get as early a tube as possible from the late forties to the early and mid 1950's. So are I do like the old Philco straight bottle 5U4G but the 5R4GY just seems to have more of everything. Again though, at this point the Sophia Princess is tops.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jack offered to send $15 to cover the cost of the stock tube but I told him it is not the point as I expected to compare the two tubes and have one as a spare . Anyway it is no big deal .

 About the "*gz30 and the 5v4g rca brand from the 40's*" and the "*gz37 fat bottle*" , thank you to offer your experience in pairing the WA6 and GS 1000 . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why not just have him send you the stock tube - RCA, GE, or Sylvania (I would assume)???


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jack offered to send $15 to cover the cost of the stock tube but I told him it is not the point as I expected to compare the two tubes and have one as a spare . Anyway it is no big deal .

 About the "*gz30 and the 5v4g rca brand from the 40's*" and the "*gz37 fat bottle*" , thank you to offer your experience in pairing the WA6 and GS 1000 . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

no problem, i really enjoy the synergy the modified wa6 has with the gs1000.
 btw, if you're looking at getting the gz30 thru ebay, be wary of a canadian
 seller whose listing shows a pair in his pics. it's actually for one tube. i wouldn't
 bid more than $5 with his shipping fee so high... i got mine from a UK seller on ebay
 who's selling true NOS military grade gz30 for 12pound ($22) each. and his
 shipping fee is very reasonable too. just ask before purchasing. good luck.


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not just have him send you the stock tube - RCA, GE, or Sylvania (I would assume)???_

 

AFAIK most folks received the Sovtek 5u4g as the stock rectifier.


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no problem, i really enjoy the synergy the modified wa6 has with the gs1000.
 btw, if you're looking at getting the gz30 thru ebay, be wary of a canadian
 seller whose listing shows a pair in his pics. it's actually for one tube. i wouldn't
 bid more than $5 with his shipping fee so high... i got mine from a UK seller on ebay
 who's selling true NOS military grade gz30 for 12pound ($22) each. and his
 shipping fee is very reasonable too. just ask before purchasing. good luck._

 

Thanks for the headsup takezo.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have a Sovtek 5U4G that came with the WA6. It's okay, but I thought the treble sounded a little "plasticky" vs the Sylvania 5U4G that sounds pretty good. The RCA 5U4G was better than the Sovtek too, but not as tight and controlled in the bass as the Sylvania.


----------



## musicmind

Agreed, I used the Sovtek initially before rolling in a few different tubes and to my ears the improvement in clarity and extension were quite noticeable.


----------



## jamato8

I have been letting the my old NOS Philco straight bottle 5U4G burn in and does it sound good. In some ways I like it every bit as much as the Sophia Princess. There is a "you are there" quality to the sound with nice air about instruments and singers. I have also had the amp on for about 5 hours and find that it really needs to be on for a while to sound its best but I have found this true of many electronics, which is the reason I leave solid state on all the time.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Yeah, my WA6 sounds closed in and less bright in the first 30-60 minutes. So I let it warm up a minimum of 1 hour with music playing, 2 is better.


----------



## Gradofan2

OK... for all you tube gurus...

 Which of the following do you most recommend for the WA6 SE+. I've ranked these in the approximate order of priority (given my research):

*6DE7 tubes (better than 6EW7): *

 Tung Sol (Best)
 Raytheon 
 Amperex
 Sylvania
 Philco
 RCA
 GE (Worst)

*6EW7 tubes (not as good as 6DE7): *

 Tung Sol (Best)
 Raytheon
 Amperex
 Sylvania
 Philco
 Admirial
 RCA
 GE (Wost)


*Rectifier Tubes (other than the Sophia and EML):*

*5AR4/GZ34 (and related - Beter than 5UG4)*

 Tung Sol (and related Cetron/Chatham)
 Raytheon
 Mullard (Mullard and similar UK)
 Sylvania
 Philco 
 RCA
 GE
 Svetlana

*5U4G (and related - not as good as 5AR4/GZ34)*

 Tung Sol (and related Cetron/Chatham - Best)
 Raytheon
 Mullard (and similar UK)
 Sylvania
 Philco (perhaps should be ranked higher - based on Jamoto8's experience)
 RCA
 GE
 Svetlana (worst)


 Of course this ranking reflects my preference for the rich, solid, tight, dynamic sound of Tung Sol and similar tubes - compared to more diffuse, leaner sounding tubes.

 Any help will be appreciated.

 Just doing some planning for my new amp.


----------



## jamato8

Here is the problem. 

 There are many different internal constructions of the tubes you mention. I like the RCA very much but the early version more than the later. Tubes went down hill to a great degree (not all but most) after the early 60's. 

 On the 5AR4/GZ34 many different manufactures and dates which equates to sound, most often. 

 On the 5U4G the RCA early tubes are very good sounding. The 5R4GY are excellent and there are some early version from different manufactures to pick from. Oh, and you mention the Philco but that is one version I picked up with unusual box plates that look like some of the black coating has been rubbed off. So many versions to pick from. Many of the 5U4G's aren't very expensive and I would go for the earliest you can find. 

 on the 6DE7, I have some Marconi that blow everything away but they are harder to find than hen's teeth. So there you go my humble opinion , which changes like the wind. :^) Well not totally but if I hear something better I will change. 

 Oh and then there are the 274B tube of which the Sophia Electric Princess is king, I mean queen, I mean princess.


----------



## takezo

I've recently been told of this german vendor that carries the EML
 and the fullmusic 274b, (aka standard sophia 274b) and their prices
 are very competitive:

★ J A C - M U S I C ★ EMISSION LABS TUBES ★ YAMAMOTO SOUNDCRAFT ★ NOS TUBES ★ You must like:

 click on the "worldwide, not to germany" link on the left
 column and it'll take you to the price + order info...

 the EML 274b is 128 euro (about $182) and the fullmusic 274b
 is on a close out sell for 52 euro (about $74)...

 tubeusa is too much... he's charging $240 for each EML (includes priority
 shipping)


----------



## jamato8

I wouldn't direct my money to the EML. I have not found it to perform any better or as good as some of the good 5U4G or 5G4Y (I think I got that wrong) tubes. It does not sound refined and the details are lost. I also find the bass lacking, not in depth but again in refinement.

 Wow. I have left the 6 on for 14 hours now and the PHILCO is sounding very, very fine. Dynamic as hell, open and detailed. It sounds like a live feed on Dick's Picks 4 from the Grateful Dead. Oh the Ed. 9 doesn't hurt. I have some tube equipment that I have built that stays on all the time but with amps I don't do this. I have to admit the 6 is sounding extremely fine. Very articulate.


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't direct my money to the EML. I have not found it to perform any better or as good as some of the good 5U4G or 5G4Y (I think I got that wrong) tubes. It does not sound refined and the details are lost. I also find the bass lacking, not in depth but again in refinement.

 Wow. I have left the 6 on for 14 hours now and the PHILCO is sounding very, very fine. Dynamic as hell, open and detailed. It sounds like a live feed on Dick's Picks 4 from the Grateful Dead. Oh the Ed. 9 doesn't hurt. I have some tube equipment that I have built that stays on all the time but with amps I don't do this. I have to admit the 6 is sounding extremely fine. Very articulate._

 

Jam, is there much difference in the 5R4GY and the 5R4GYA to your ears in the WA6? I have a GE 5R4GYA at the moment.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't direct my money to the EML. I have not found it to perform any better or as good as some of the good 5U4G or 5G4Y (I think I got that wrong) tubes. It does not sound refined and the details are lost. I also find the bass lacking, not in depth but again in refinement.

 Wow. I have left the 6 on for 14 hours now and the PHILCO is sounding very, very fine. Dynamic as hell, open and detailed. It sounds like a live feed on Dick's Picks 4 from the Grateful Dead. Oh the Ed. 9 doesn't hurt. I have some tube equipment that I have built that stays on all the time but with amps I don't do this. I have to admit the 6 is sounding extremely fine. Very articulate._

 

Do you have more details about the Philco tube - such as... year, who made it, construction? 

 I assume, it was made by Mullard, or Amperex, or Philips, and branded Philco? Are their other identical tubes under other names - such as Admirial, or the name of the manufacturer? 

 What is the typical market price?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have more details about the Philco tube - such as... year, who made it, construction? 

 I assume, it was made by Mullard, or Amperex, or Philips, and branded Philco? Are their other identical tubes under other names - such as Admirial, or the name of the manufacturer? 

 What is the typical market price?_

 

I don't know who made it. I haven't seen any rebranded from Mullard or the others in Philco. Philco used to rebrand Sylvnaia all the time. It is a box plate construction, 1959. I haven't seen any others like it.


----------



## atbglenn

John,

 Is this RCA 5R4GY considered good? How old would you say it is?


----------



## jamato8

Here is an image that is close to what I have:






 What I have is a 5U4G with box plates like this. As mentioned takezo, it may be a rebranded Sylvania. I guess I should take in image of it as it doesn't look exactly like this tube and it has the 4 and 6 holes as mentioned by takezo. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jam, is there much difference in the 5R4GY and the 5R4GYA to your ears in the WA6? I have a GE 5R4GYA at the moment._

 

I don't have any of the 5R4GYA or YB tubes. Get some and give us a report. There are many, many varieties and different years of manufacture and then rebranding etc.


----------



## jamato8

atbglenn;4744737 said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> Is this RCA 5R4GY considered good? How old would you say it is?
> 
> It is what is good to your ear. It looks like late fifties or in the 1960's. I have a couple and prefer the Philco but you also need to get hours on these tubes to know how they will really influence the sound.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John,

 Is this RCA 5R4GY considered good? How old would you say it is?_

 

that's 1954 i believe... these rca brands are very good but the brimar
 construction is superior imo... the brimar has more head room and doesn't
 sound rolled off like the rca brands. but be wary of "brimar" label. some
 tube sellers on ebay are selling cheaper soviet tubes rebranded as "brimar"
 but the internal construction is not the same as real english "brimar"...
 i think there's one australian seller selling an old engraved type 5r4gy brimar
 and it's the real thing...


----------



## takezo

the jan 5r4ga is a very good tube too. very well balanced...
 kind of like listening to a tungsol 6sn7 mouse-ear tube...

 there are two types of the jan 5r4ga though... the black base, like
 john's pic and a brown base. i have both and prefer the black base
 for slightly better transparency.

 i think the philco that john has is a sylvania rebranded... i have
 several of the 5u4gb and almost all of them have different
 internal construction...except for the sylvanias.. they're all 
 rectangular box plates with 4 holes on the outer trim and 6 holes
 in the inner trim... they sound very transparent, neutra mids and
 have tight bass... not the best mids for my taste though...probably
 more of a headphone synergy though...


----------



## jamato8

All of the 27 mesh plates of the late 1920 and early 30's branded Philco were made my Sylvania. Like most all loctals were also made my Sylvania. 

 There is also going to be small differences from amp to amp. Since I have nonpolar Black Gates in Super E etc, the power supply I have and a few others have will be different and produce a different sound than other Woo 6's. I don't suspect it will be extreme but there will be differences.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of the 27 mesh plates of the late 1920 and early 30's branded Philco were made my Sylvania. Like most all loctals were also made my Sylvania. 

 There is also going to be small differences from amp to amp. Since I have nonpolar Black Gates in Super E etc, the power supply I have and a few others have will be different and produce a different sound than other Woo 6's. I don't suspect it will be extreme but there will be differences._

 

i agree... i've thought of lowering the resistance in the powersupply section
 as well as the front section but i really like the sound i'm getting now, but
 may experiment in the future with the super-e and a stiffer b+ voltage... all
 thanks to you!


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I don't have any of the 5R4GYA or YB tubes. Get some and give us a report. There are many, many varieties and different years of manufacture and then rebranding etc._

 

Right as always...I will try to get a nice one and see how it sounds. I was interested that you said it some of the nice properties of the 274B.
 Thanks again


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of the 27 mesh plates of the late 1920 and early 30's branded Philco were made my Sylvania. Like most all loctals were also made my Sylvania. 

 There is also going to be small differences from amp to amp. Since I have nonpolar Black Gates in Super E etc, the power supply I have and a few others have will be different and produce a different sound than other Woo 6's. I don't suspect it will be extreme but there will be differences._

 

So is the Sylvania of similar vintage identical - sound the same?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So is the Sylvania of similar vintage identical - sound the same?_

 

There were different plate constructions. There is no way to know until the tubes are actually compared but if during the same period and having the same construction then there is no reason they would not sound much alike. 

 I find the Philico (Sylvania) 1959 5U4G box plate construction to be a very big surprise and for me right up there with the Princess and in some ways even more open. The nuances are delightful.

 edit: one thing a little bit of a recessed midrange does is give a sense of more depth. I will have to listen and compare more. I do know that on Jackson Browne's second live album of a series of two, with the Philco his vocals are very well placed, the mids are rich and textured and I wouldn't want his voice any closer. Well it is all interesting and fun to play with.


----------



## Gradofan2

Has anyone tried:

 1. Svetlana "Winged C" 5AR4 Rectifier tubes? If so, how are they?

 2. Mullard GZ34 tubes? If so, how are they?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There were different plate constructions. There is no way to know until the tubes are actually compared but if during the same period and having the same construction then there is no reason they would not sound much alike. 

 I find the Philico (Sylvania) 1959 5U4G box plate construction to be a very big surprise and for me right up there with the Princess and in some ways even more open. The nuances are delightful.

 edit: one thing a little bit of a recessed midrange does is give a sense of more depth. I will have to listen and compare more. I do know that on Jackson Browne's second live album of a series of two, with the Philco his vocals are very well placed, the mids are rich and textured and I wouldn't want his voice any closer. Well it is all interesting and fun to play with._

 

So does this mean... there's no need to invest the $150 in the Sophia Princess - are the Philco / Sylvania tubes sufficiently close? If so... there's a huge savings. 

 The more I look at many of the Philco and Sylvania tubes (5U4G...)... and even some of the Tung-Sols, and others - the more they look identical (some do, and some don't). I assume one of these companies, or another, made them all and just branded them for each vendor.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this mean... there's no need to invest the $150 in the Sophia Princess - are the Philco / Sylvania tubes sufficiently close? If so... there's a huge savings. 

 The more I look at many of the Philco and Sylvania tubes (5U4G...)... and even some of the Tung-Sols, and others - the more they look identical (some do, and some don't). I assume one of these companies, or another, made them all and just branded them for each vendor._

 

Rebranding was a common practice with some companies never making certain tubes. Often plate structure is the same and this is just one more bit of information that helps you to know what tube you may want or may not want.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rebranding was a common practice with some companies never making certain tubes. Often plate structure is the same and this is just one more bit of information that helps you to know what tube you may want or may not want._

 

But... is the Philco tube close enough in sound to the Sophia Princess to pass up the Princess? It would be nice to save the $150, if it is...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But... is the Philco tube close enough in sound to the Sophia Princess to pass up the Princess? It would be nice to save the $150, if it is..._

 

I have been just listening to the Philco it is so good but I will compare again. Also I am hearing some changes in my amp do to the long forming period of the Black Gate caps I installed.

 edit: I don't know the Princess sounds awfully good. It is different. Very, very alive. They both offer great sound. The Princess has a quality that is like spontaneous music. Plucked strings are PLUCKED and resonate. micro sounds that accompany the decay are there. This modified 6 with the Ultrasone Ed. 9 really gives me a view of everything and I hear the differences of the 6DE7's and rectifiers very easily although that doesn't mean I can always easily describe what I am hearing. I do notice a very low noise floor with the Princess, very low as in I can't hear it.

 This combo is sounding way too good. I have to do other things.. . like prepare for work. . . oh that's tomorrow. :^)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been just listening to the Philco it is so good but I will compare again. Also I am hearing some changes in my amp do to the long forming period of the Black Gate caps I installed.

 edit: I don't know the Princess sounds awfully good. It is different. Very, very alive. They both offer great sound. The Princess has a quality that is like spontaneous music. Plucked strings are PLUCKED and resonate. micro sounds that accompany the decay are there. This modified 6 with the Ultrasone Ed. 9 really gives me a view of everything and I hear the differences of the 6DE7's and rectifiers very easily although that doesn't mean I can always easily describe what I am hearing. I do notice a very low noise floor with the Princess, very low as in I can't hear it.

 This combo is sounding way too good. I have to do other things.. . like prepare for work. . . oh that's tomorrow. :^)_

 

I absolutely love my Sophia Princess for the reasons mentioned above. In blind testing of my WA6 and his Zana Deux last weekend, now Blutarsky and I cannot correctly pick out which amp we are listening to if using HP-1000, woodied recabled HF-1, or APS V3 cabled HD600. Only with the PS-1 could we hear a difference, with the WA6 producing more bass - although not as tight and well controlled as the PS-1 bass on the Zana Deux, and maybe a little too much of it.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I absolutely love my Sophia Princess for the reasons mentioned above. In blind testing of my WA6 and his Zana Deux last weekend, now Blutarsky and I cannot correctly pick out which amp we are listening to if using HP-1000, woodied recabled HF-1, or APS V3 cabled HD600. Only with the PS-1 could we hear a difference, with the WA6 producing more bass - although not as tight and well controlled as the PS-1 bass on the Zana Deux, and maybe a little too much of it._

 

What power supply caps are you using and what size are the caps on the cathode bypass? 

 I need to get in there and try out the battery bypass for the cathodes. I have always preferred batter bias.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What power supply caps are you using and what size are the caps on the cathode bypass? 

 I need to get in there and try out the battery bypass for the cathodes. I have always preferred batter bias._

 

They're whatever size Vcaps and BlackGates that Jack uses with the "maxed" option (built August 07), and the PDPS was done with BlackGates in May 08.


----------



## jantze

Motivation is gone, but the caps are eager:





 Sorry, had to post something


----------



## Gradofan2

Has anyone tried...

 1. Electro Harmonix 5U4GB, or

 2. Sevetlana (SED) Winged C 5U4GB ???

 If so... how did they sound? 

 They're inexpensive...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Motivation is gone, but the caps are eager:





 Sorry, had to post something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

They await. Sure it can get easy to lose the motivation. Sometimes you just have to wait. You have all polar caps so you can't do the Super E but you can parallel a couple and lower the ESR.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They await. Sure it can get easy to lose the motivation. Sometimes you just have to wait. You have all polar caps so you can't do the Super E but you can parallel a couple and lower the ESR._

 

4 X Black Gate WK 220uF 200v
 "WK - non-polar, asymmetrical "power tank" design, high current applications"

 Super-E is possible, but let's see


----------



## yoff

WooAudio told me that they forgot to send a 5AR4 or 5U4G rectifier tube with my WA6-SE but did not offer to send me one , just to send $15 !


----------



## jamato8

What tube do you have then for a rectifier? I would always want back ups. Plural as in a few. It is fun to roll but you also need a back up or a few for when tube goes bad or just gets worn down. I would have a few sets of the driver/power tubes and a few rectifiers. Ask that it be sent. I can't see why that would be a problem.


----------



## yoff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What tube do you have then for a rectifier? ..._

 

Sophia Princess ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... but no back-up unfortunately .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sophia Princess ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... but no back-up unfortunately ._

 

Well, the $15 they sent you in it's place is enough to get a decent backup tube. I found some nice RCA and Sylvania 5U4G on ebay for close to that much, shipped!


----------



## jamato8

Yes, I picked up some nice NOS recently on ebay (I wouldn't buy used) and have some nice tubes to listen to.


----------



## yoff

They did not send me $15 because I was not interested in this solution : in my opinion they should send the forgotten product ASAP but it is not that important for me and I just want people to know .


----------



## Torero

The WA6 is good for all kinds of music?it is up to the task?


----------



## jamato8

I have found mine to be good with everything I have listened to. Delicate and full with strings and powerful with good rock. Sorry, I don't listen to rap.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have found mine to be good with everything I have listened to. Delicate and full with strings and powerful with good rock. Sorry, I don't listen to rap._

 

Why are you sorry? I'm glad I hate rap


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Now that I have all my mods and tube upgrades done, mine os good with everything - jazz, classical, acoustic and folk, electronica, new age, rock, and even hip hop is okay, but not rap (well some is okay too).


----------



## takezo

been burning in the sophia princess for approx. 12 hrs. now... still need burnin
 cause i'm not getting into it... dull at the top and bloated at the bottom...

 but it does look pretty... no sparks... yet.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_been burning in the sophia princess for approx. 12 hrs. now... still need burnin
 cause i'm not getting into it... dull at the top and bloated at the bottom...

 but it does look pretty... no sparks... yet.




_

 

That's not good... please let us know how it develops over the next few days. Though, Jamato8 and others say it really tightens up and opens up a lot. 

 I don't want to get one, if it doesn't.

 What signal tubes (6DE7) are you using? Are they affecting the sound - concealing the sound of the Princess?


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

For me, the Princess sounded good from the box, and only got better from there.

 Transparent as all hell, extended top & bottom, rock solid images, rich, meaty music emanating from her.

 YMMV


----------



## takezo

it sounds on par with the rca 5r4gy right now... but the 5r4gy is
 $10 used and $20 for a NOS...

 the sylvania 274b sounded much more open and had more head
 room than the sophia now... i'll see how it sounds after 50hrs.
 btw, this is the first time i've ever had to burn in a tube this long...
 most sound their best after 5 - 10 hrs...

 i'm using a pair of blackplate ge 6de7... they sound very fine with all of my 
 other rectifiers...


----------



## Gregious

So I've had the WA6 for nine months. For the last two months I've been listening to it with Jack's pseudo-dual mod, and the Sophia Princess. It was sounding amazing, up until a couple if days ago when it seems like it lost "something". It seems softer, grainier, less impact somehow.

 I'm not sure how much time I have on it, but I'd guess over 1,000 hours. Pardon this noobish question as this is my first tube amp. What is the typical lifespan of the 6DE7 tubes? Is it possible these are going and would that cause the sound change I've described?

 Anyone else experience anything like this?

 Thanks,

 Greg


----------



## Gradofan2

So... 

 It sounds like the Sophia Princess really only works well in the WA6 Maxed... and... not really well in the WA6 SE - correct?

 So... can we conclude you should only get the Princess with the WA6, and not the WA6 SE? 

 The next question would follow... does... the WA6 SE sound enough better with other tubes (other than the Princess) to get it (with other tubes) over the WA6 Maxed with the Princess???

 I've about decided to cancel my order for the SE with the Princess, and swap back to the WA6 Maxed with the Princess. I'm guessing that may be the better sounding amp / tube combo???


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_been burning in the sophia princess for approx. 12 hrs. now... still need burnin
 cause i'm not getting into it... dull at the top and bloated at the bottom...

 but it does look pretty... no sparks... yet.





_

 

That's what I heard in the first day of burn-in too (well, at least with my Edition 9).


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what I heard in the first day of burn-in too (well, at least with my Edition 9)._

 

that's reassuring to know... it's almost like going thru the burn-in of a new
 blackgate cap... it's open and prodigious in the mids and bass one hour
 and compressed, bloating and dull another...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gregious* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I've had the WA6 for nine months. For the last two months I've been listening to it with Jack's pseudo-dual mod, and the Sophia Princess. It was sounding amazing, up until a couple if days ago when it seems like it lost "something". It seems softer, grainier, less impact somehow.

 I'm not sure how much time I have on it, but I'd guess over 1,000 hours. Pardon this noobish question as this is my first tube amp. What is the typical lifespan of the 6DE7 tubes? Is it possible these are going and would that cause the sound change I've described?

 Anyone else experience anything like this?

 Thanks,

 Greg_

 

best way to be sure is to swap those for new tubes... or get a tube tester
 that measures their output strength.

 you can check to see if it's the sophia or the output tubes by trying another
 rectifier to see if it also sounds flat and dull... then you'd can probably be
 sure that it's the output tubes losing its juice... good luck.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So... 

 It sounds like the Sophia Princess really only works well in the WA6 Maxed... and... not really well in the WA6 SE - correct?

 So... can we conclude you should only get the Princess with the WA6, and not the WA6 SE? 

 The next question would follow... does... the WA6 SE sound enough better with other tubes (other than the Princess) to get it (with other tubes) over the WA6 Maxed with the Princess???

 I've about decided to cancel my order for the SE with the Princess, and swap back to the WA6 Maxed with the Princess. I'm guessing that may be the better sounding amp / tube combo???_

 

i think it's too early to tell... it could all just be a poor princess tube...


----------



## yoff

At *Tubeworld* I found a 5V4G RCA NOS original box 1962 for $55 + $22 (shipping) = $77 (compared to the $15 offerded by WooAudio to compensate for their mistake 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) : is it a good option as a back-up for a WA6-SE and Grado GS 1000 ?


----------



## atbglenn

I paid $19.95 plus shipping for my NOS RCA 5V4G from thetubestore.com. I'm not sure what year it was made.


----------



## jamato8

Tube World is a nice place to look at tubes but for most they are way too expensive. I don't think that their prices are realistic but they do sell a lot. I know another tube seller and what he sells tubes to them for is about 1/10 of what they turn around and sell them for.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gregious* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I've had the WA6 for nine months. For the last two months I've been listening to it with Jack's pseudo-dual mod, and the Sophia Princess. It was sounding amazing, up until a couple if days ago when it seems like it lost "something". It seems softer, grainier, less impact somehow.

 I'm not sure how much time I have on it, but I'd guess over 1,000 hours. Pardon this noobish question as this is my first tube amp. What is the typical lifespan of the 6DE7 tubes? Is it possible these are going and would that cause the sound change I've described?

 Anyone else experience anything like this?

 Thanks,

 Greg_

 

Could be the rectifier. That is why I always have backups to compare to. Could be your input tubes but hard to say. Best way to know is to swap out tubes. Even testing can indicate a tube is good but that doesn't mean it sounds good. It does help to test a rectifier though because once it declines any from its new test marks, it won't sound as good.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid $19.95 plus shipping for my NOS RCA 5V4G from thetubestore.com. I'm not sure what year it was made._

 

How does its sound compare to your other tubes?


----------



## yoff

*thetubestore.com* ? Thank's for the address !


----------



## jamato8

The Philco, most likely made my Sylvania from the mid 1950's is what I have in again. What a sound. It is like surround 3D sound. The recording venue is around me but also in front of me. Great sound!


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At *Tubeworld* I found a 5V4G RCA NOS original box 1962 for $55 + $22 (shipping) = $77 (compared to the $15 offerded by WooAudio to compensate for their mistake 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) : is it a good option as a back-up for a WA6-SE and Grado GS 1000 ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 you can find good rca 5V4G in ebay for less than $20...

 try a mullard gz30 with the gs1000... it's extremely transparent with
 a slight midrange lushness... i prefer these over 5r4gy or gz34 for the gs1000.

 copy and paste this in ebay search: MULLARD GZ30 CV2748 TUBES (NOS) 

 he's a canadian seller who use to charge $20 shipping to the states but
 i've noticed recently that he's lowered it to $10.

 * this auction is for a single tube, even though it shows two in the pics. *
 so if you decide to bid, bid accordingly. they go for approx. $20 in the UK.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I should mention that I thought my WA maxed sounded like a turd until it had 400-500 hours on it and the Vcaps and blackgates were finally burning-in some. I posted that before, that I liked my Dark Voice 336i more until I passed that point in my burn-in. 

 By 600-700 hours it sounded great with everything but Edition 9 muddy boomy), but it wasn't until I added the pseudo dual power supply after 800 hours that the amp excelled at driving most headphones (except Edition 9). 

 It wasn't until I added the Sophia Princess and gave that tube 80 hours that I could say the WA6 was perfect for Edition 9, and it is now easily up to the level of the Zana Deux and Melos SHA Gold - and world class sounding with all headphones.


----------



## jamato8

The one thing I have always loved about tubes, beside the warm glow, is that you can roll tubes to you own delight. A tube is a circuit and each tube from different periods and manufactures has its own characteristics so you have a multitude of circuits to play with and tune your amp or what ever the tube device is, if it implements tubes correctly.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does its sound compare to your other tubes?_

 

I'm not very good at describing in detail the differences in sound, but out of the tubes I have including a Svetlana 5U4G, RCA 5R4GY, and a Electro Harmonix 5U4GB, I like the RCA 5V4 the best. It's more extended on top, and the bass seems deeper than the others I have.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*thetubestore.com* ? Thank's for the address ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

It's best that you call or email them because they list "various brands in stock", but the website doesn't show what brands they have. Good Luck


----------



## jamato8

I just picked up a 5931 rectifier. It started off kind of bass heavy and then started to clean up. A very interesting tube. It has a mA rating of 250 or so with a 4uf first cap, like all of these tubes. The 6 Modified to be honest is sounding good with most any tube I put in it but of course extra special with some more than others. Like the 274B and the Philco 5U4G and this 5931 and . . . . .


----------



## wovenhand

So, anyone compared the Mullard 5AR4 to the Sophia Princesss..?
 And what difference does the indirect vs direct heating make in this case?


----------



## takezo

the mullard 5ar4 comes in several versions:

 the metal base - best in dynamics, resolution and lively highs
 the large plastic base - best in liquid mids and deep bass
 and the standard plastic base - very smooth and refined but lacking
 in headroom and resolution compared to the metal...

 i have approx. 20 hrs. on the sophia princess and it sounds
 eerily similar to the gz37 large round base rectifier... very
 transparent, large soundstage, prodigious bass and separation
 of instruments is outstanding... i can't wait to find what it sounds
 like at 50 and 100 hrs...

 also received the EML 274b from jacmusic in germany... total was $214
 with 5 day express shipping thru dhl... nice box and initial impression is
 better than the sophia princess at her initial listening... won't say more
 until both are given some time to settle.


----------



## jamato8

I have heard two people now like the EML better. I like the Philco 5U4GB I have better so I am not sure what the deal is. I don't really care for the bass with the EML, it is not delicate and by this I mean the subtle fine nuances do not come through as they do with the Sophia and I don't get the large open stage. ??


----------



## musicmind

Jam, could the liking/disliking of the EML be due to different headphones being used? 
 Which do you prefer with your HD-650?

 All the recent discussion about the 274B sparking and capacitor values got me thinking about the EML 5u4g mesh plate, which is no cheap tube either unfortunately, but it seems to tolerate a higher cap value according to the data sheet. I couldn't find any impressions of it against cheaper NOS 5u4g tubes anywhere though. Any educated guesses if it is a safer alternative for unmodded WA6 (SE) users looking for a top rectifier ?
http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML5U4G.htm


----------



## takezo

the eml 274b may be the best sounding tube i've ever listened to...
 it was evident from the start... probably after 30 mins. of warm up...
 it has the biggest headroom, resolution, weight to the notes and
 the sensation of notes whizzing back and forth i've encountered
 yet... i hope the sound signature doesn't change... i've only got
 approx. 6 hrs. on it... but the princess is also loosening up...
 the congested mid region is clearing and bass is deep and mean..
 but i don't hear the tiny nuances at the top as much as the eml...
 the headroom is different too. the princess feels like there's about
 3ft of headroom on top but the eml gives the sensation of 10ft... 
 i'm using the 650 with diy cable... using the denon d5000, it feels
 like 15 ft on top...


----------



## musicmind

Thanks for the feedback takezo, nice to see you got your moneys worth


----------



## takezo

i think so... but i wouldn't say this is the final word on either tubes.
 i think the sophia needs more time cause with the senn600 it sounds
 very impressive, especially in the bass and midbass region...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jam, could the liking/disliking of the EML be due to different headphones being used? 
 Which do you prefer with your HD-650?_

 


 I swear the Edition 9 are very picky about their tubes. My RS-1 and HD600 would sound great with the Bugle Boy GZ34 but the Edition 9 made the bass all muddy and slurred and boomy (same with philips 1995 metal base GZ34). I complained about the bass problem for months. The Sophia Princess fixed all that, so it's possible the EML doesn't get along with the Edition 9.


----------



## dvb-projekt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the eml 274b may be the best sounding tube i've ever listened to...
 it was evident from the start... probably after 30 mins. of warm up...
 it has the biggest headroom, resolution, weight to the notes and
 the sensation of notes whizzing back and forth i've encountered
 yet... i hope the sound signature doesn't change... i've only got
 approx. 6 hrs. on it... but the princess is also loosening up...
 the congested mid region is clearing and bass is deep and mean..
 but i don't hear the tiny nuances at the top as much as the eml...
 the headroom is different too. the princess feels like there's about
 3ft of headroom on top but the eml gives the sensation of 10ft... 
 i'm using the 650 with diy cable... using the denon d5000, it feels
 like 15 ft on top..._

 


 That is exactly the experience that i´ve made with the two tubes and my GS 1000!

 Therefore my new WA5-LE custiom made, i hope Jack finished it in the next 2 weeks, get 2x EML 5U4G mash (recommendation from Jack & JAC Music for the WA5-LE) and 2x EML 300B mash 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I count every hour, till the two big boxes arrived


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jam, could the liking/disliking of the EML be due to different headphones being used? 
 Which do you prefer with your HD-650?

 All the recent discussion about the 274B sparking and capacitor values got me thinking about the EML 5u4g mesh plate, which is no cheap tube either unfortunately, but it seems to tolerate a higher cap value according to the data sheet. I couldn't find any impressions of it against cheaper NOS 5u4g tubes anywhere though. Any educated guesses if it is a safer alternative for unmodded WA6 (SE) users looking for a top rectifier ?
5U4G Datasheet. Emission Labs.




_

 


 I would be interested to hear any views on this also. I have some NOS 1950s RCA 5U4G tubes coming in the next day or so and am looking forward to hearing how they sound on the WA6 SE. I also have a pair of Sylvania 5U4Gs coming. I am hoping that these may be better than the Sovtek 5AR4 that I tried which seemed to compress the soundstage and lost the airiness and extension of the Princess 274B.

 I presume the EML 274B would have the same issues as the Princess 274B with regard to capacitor or choke values, so any experiences with the EML 5U4G would be good to hear.


----------



## Parafeed

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All the recent discussion about the 274B sparking and capacitor values got me thinking about the EML 5u4g mesh plate, which is no cheap tube either unfortunately, but it seems to tolerate a higher cap value according to the data sheet._

 

Yes, but note that the 'datasheet' also talks of series resistor being required for C1-L-C2 filter if combined C1+C2 > 33uF. In the other thread cap values were being talked about in the 100's of uF, not 10's!


----------



## sclamb

In the other thread it was also mentioned that there is some leeway in the tube specs.

 The problem is if the max cap value is specified as 4uf and the actual cap value is 150uf (as in the WA6) then we are looking at a 37.5 times increase. If the max cap value is specified as 33uf, then the increase is 4.5 times, which you may get away with.


----------



## Parafeed

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the other thread it was also mentioned that there is some leeway in the tube specs._

 

Not by me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm not the designer of the amplifier. But when I design tube gear I pay attention to the tube manufacturer and the datasheet. If there is one thing I've learnt in 20 years of building tube amps, is that if you operate tubes within 'spec' and 'obey' the datasheet they last a long time. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is if the max cap value is specified as 4uf and the actual cap value is 150uf (as in the WA6) then we are looking at a 37.5 times increase. If the max cap value is specified as 33uf, then the increase is 4.5 times, which you may get away with._

 

This isn't a case of "getting away with". Or maybe it is, for some. I don't spend big bucks on tubes to "get away with" using them. YMMV.

 As also noted in the EML 5U4G datasheet, the only real way to be sure what the peak inrush is with any given set of supporting components is to measure it. Unless I got the pick of the crop of the Sophia 274B's and Woo 6 owners got the duds, I can say with 99% certainty if tubes are 'sparking' at startup in the Woo 6 circuit, guess what ..... the peak inrush is too high. As to whether you will "get away with" the EML 5U4G in that circuit ....... Sure you will. How many weeks, months, years, it will last. Place your bets....


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Parafeed* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not by me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not the designer of the amplifier. But when I design tube gear I pay attention to the tube manufacturer and the datasheet. If there is one thing I've learnt in 20 years of building tube amps, is that if you operate tubes within 'spec' and 'obey' the datasheet they last a long time. 



 This isn't a case of "getting away with". Or maybe it is, for some. I don't spend big bucks on tubes to "get away with" using them. YMMV.

 As also noted in the EML 5U4G datasheet, the only real way to be sure what the peak inrush is with any given set of supporting components is to measure it. Unless I got the pick of the crop of the Sophia 274B's and Woo 6 owners got the duds, I can say with 99% certainty if tubes are 'sparking' at startup in the Woo 6 circuit, guess what ..... the peak inrush is too high. As to whether you will "get away with" the EML 5U4G in that circuit ....... Sure you will. How many weeks, months, years, it will last. Place your bets...._

 

I think we should all agree... $150-200 is just way too much to pay for a tube that, apparently, appears not to be compatible with the circuit of the WA6 (SE, or standard) - at least at this point.

 As some of you know... Sophia Electronics... is suggesting the WA6 circuit does not appear to be compatible with the specs of their tube. I don't believe they've actually reviewed the circuit design... but... are concluding that based on the reports they've gotten from some of you that the tube has been flashing in the circuit. 

 I guess I won't be trying the SP 274B MP... unless Jack ultimately confirms that his circuit does not exceed the specs of the tube.

 I'm trying to get Jack to confirm, or deny that. 

 Has anyone been successful in getting him to respond to that question??? 

 I haven't been successful, so far. He seems to prefer to "talk around" the issue - never confronting the question. 

 That's one aspect of Woo Audio that could improve - candor. Its very difficult to get a simple "yes" or "no" on such questions. 

 I'm also a bit concerned that he would offer the SP 274B MP, if he hasn't confirmed the circuit is compatible with the tube specs - he really shouldn't offer it, if it doesn't.


----------



## sclamb

I asked Jack directly again today and Jack confirmed in an email to me that the WA6 SE amp design is compatible to a 274B rectifier.

 However, he went on to say he tested multiple tubes on the same amp. It appeared that there was a strong flash in a few isolated cases. However, he said that a brief light white flash need not be worried about, which is at odds with what people here are saying in that such a flash is not good for the tube.

 Given that there was only one other person that had seen this flash/sparking issue, perhaps there are some bad Princess 274B tubes out there and a replacement would be fine. If however a replacement has the same issue, and given that Jack sees the design as compatible with the 274B rectifier, then I don't know where to go from there.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked Jack directly again today and Jack confirmed in an email to me that the WA6 SE amp design is compatible to a 274B rectifier.

 However, he went on to say he tested multiple tubes on the same amp. It appeared that there was a strong flash in a few isolated cases. However, he said that a brief light white flash need not be worried about, which is at odds with what people here are saying in that such a flash is not good for the tube.

 Given that there was only one other person that had seen this flash/sparking issue, perhaps there are some bad Princess 274B tubes out there and a replacement would be fine. If however a replacement has the same issue, and given that Jack sees the design as compatible with the 274B rectifier, then I don't know where to go from there._

 

I'm wondering if Jack is just "defending" his amp, against the tube - proud of his design, and reluctant to admit the tube isn't compatible with the amp. 

 After all... if the circuit isn't compatible, I doubt Sophia will honor their 30 day warranty (or 1 yr warranty on their better tube). I would think they'd have to review and confirm the circuit design, in order to honor their warranty - especially since they've been very specific in their warning to buyers of the tube. 

 I guess if I were one who had a tube that flashed, I would return the tube under the warranty to Jack within the 30 day period. If he maintains its an issue with the tube, and not its incompatibility with the amp - he should honor the warranty... and have no problem getting Sophia to honor their warranty to him. 

 If, on the other hand, Sophia won't honor their warranty, because the amp isn't compatible with the amp... then Jack will either stop offering the tube, or he'll modify the circuit to be compatible with the tube, because he won't want to get stuck with tubes that are not functioning properly in his amp. 

 And... I wonder if the owners who haven't noticed a flash, just haven't turned on their amp in the dark to make it easy to see the flash.

 I suppose another approach, would be to get a statement / certification from Jack regarding his circuit design, and its compatibility with the SP 274B MP, and buy the tube directly from Sophia, providing them a copy of the statement / certification. Buy the version of the tube with the 1 yr warranty (though its more expensive), and then you have a pretty good claim, if the tube fails, prematurely, or flashes, or whatever. If the tube survived the 1 yr warranty period, then you'd be pretty sure the tube matched the circuit and would last for quite a while.

 And... yet... another approach would be to get the 274B Rigid Plate, which tolerates higher current peaks (160 ma vs 90 ma) - though Sophia reports it doesn't sound quite as good as the mesh plate version.


----------



## sclamb

I am intending to return the tube for a warranty replacement. As for the amp, Jack said he was going to speak to Sophia Electric and I therefore assume he did so before providing me with his statement of compatibility.

 I sincerely hope that he is professional enough to not make claims that are false with regard to compatibility out of some need to defend his amp, as you have pondered in your response above.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am intending to return the tube for a warranty replacement. As for the amp, Jack said he was going to speak to Sophia Electric and I therefore assume he did so before providing me with his statement of compatibility.

 I sincerely hope that he is professional enough to not make claims that are false with regard to compatibility out of some need to defend his amp, as you have pondered in your response above._

 

Is this just a problem with the SE... or... have owners of the standard WA6 reported the issue also?

 If its unique to the SE... then... maybe I'll just get the WA6 Maxed - which is what I originally orderd, and switched to the SE, before I knew about the tube flash issue.


----------



## sclamb

The maxed WA6 has this part included in the parts upgrade:

 Blackgate voltage filtering caps, 220uf/200V

 The WA6 SE has this part included in the parts upgrade:

 Blackgate voltage filter caps, 150uf/350V

 So the capacitor is even larger in the WA6 maxed.


----------



## jamato8

I have spoken with Sophia a couple of times in the past. They stated that in no uncertain terms the parameters of an input cap must be regarded or the life of the tube would be greatly reduced and that it would/could also show the stress, as some have mentioned here. EML has stated the same to me in a couple of conversations and their tube handles 160mA's. I guess I have already stated this though.


----------



## takezo

i don't know what to say, except that i've been using the 5r4gy,
 which has the same low reservoir requirement of 4uF, the past
 18 months on the wa6, of which about 12+ months have been
 with the 220 uF cap as the first cap... no issues at all... even the
 emission tests have shown no significant changes... i think the 
 relatively slow start up of the amp design and the low voltage, <200v,
 have spared the rectifiers from any real stress... the only rectifier
 that has died on me since i've had the wa6 is the chinese made
 valveart 274b... which costs $10+...


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i don't know what to say, except that i've been using the 5r4gy,
 which has the same low reservoir requirement of 4uF, the past
 18 months on the wa6, of which about 12+ months have been
 with the 220 uF cap as the first cap... no issues at all... even the
 emission tests have shown no significant changes... i think the 
 relatively slow start up of the amp design and the low voltage, <200v,
 have spared the rectifiers from any real stress... the only rectifier
 that has died on me since i've had the wa6 is the chinese made
 valveart 274b... which costs $10+..._

 

Is there another difference in the design of the standard WA6 Maxed, compared to the SE, that would compensate for the high first cap value of 220uf, which is not present in the SE (additonal resistors, etc.)???

 I'm very interested in how Woo Audio has compensated for the high first cap values in these amps to allow them to be compatible with the SP 274B MP, if they actually are. 

 I note that the tech discussion on the SP web site indicates if the amp has "choke input" that the inclusion of a high value first cap is not an issue. Do either of these amps have "choke input?" I note that the SE does have a "filter choke." Is that the same thing as "choke input." If so, I assume that's why Jack indicates the tube is compatible iwth these amps.


----------



## takezo

good question to ask jack...


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good question to ask jack..._

 

But... how about some of the EEs / Techs in this discussion (e.g. Jamato8, etc.) - don't they know if the WA6's "filter choke" is the same thing as "choke input," and whether that feature would compensate for the high value of the first cap?


----------



## sclamb

I believe that this was discussed before in the other thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo...t-humm-365973/). 

 If there is an inductor (which is the choke filter), then it has to be of sufficient henrys to offset the larger capacitor value. Unfortunately Jack is not disclosing this information as I guess it is his proprietary property.


----------



## Parafeed

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very interested in how Woo Audio has compensated for the high first cap values in these amps to allow them to be compatible with the SP 274B MP, if they actually are._

 

The information below assumes a first cap (reservoir cap) connected directly to the rectifier tube and C-L-C filter. I don't know whether this applies to the standard 6, maxxed or SE. I still haven't seen a definitive statement from an owner of the SE to say that it is choke input, or the size of the cap following it.

 Valve rectifiers are 'fragile' compared to silicon diodes, with regard to peak current capability. Especially so, the earlier directly heated types. eg. 274B. When designing a circuit using tube rectifiers, one must be careful not to exceed the ratings. There are two areas of concern. Peak inrush current and pulse charging current. Assuming for a moment that the design is such that a reservoir capacitor is connected directly to the rectifier, even with a Class A amplifier (where the current drawn by the circuit is constant), the rectifier will be required to supply charging peaks typically 4-6 times greater than the static DC current. For most of the time, (although this will depend on the size of the capacitor and the current demand of the circuit), the input capacitor is the power supply. It supplies the circuit and is itself topped up in bursts by the rectifier - pulse charging. These pulse charging current spikes are many times greater than the constant DC current drawn by the circuit and we must be careful not to exceed the ripple current rating of the rectifier. In a power supply C1-L-C2 (cap 1 - choke - cap 2) filter, the second capacitor is effectively isolated by the choke and is not pulse charged, so the size of the first capacitor is the deciding factor as regards ripple current that the rectifier must supply. 

 Peak inrush - when the circuit is switched on however, any additional capacitance does come into play. Assuming the capacitors are discharged at switch-on, they will draw a very large current, greater than the circuits ripple current, while they charge. This is what can destroy tube rectifiers very quickly and can be seen as sparking/flashing/arcing at switch on. Even with a C-L-C filter where the first capacitor is small, if C2 is large, it is suggested to put a resistor in series with the choke (C-L-R-C) to limit the peak inrush current to the second capacitor.

 I hope the above makes sense. Ultimately, if as previously suggested in this thread, a 150uF capacitor is directly connected to the rectifier, IMHO, only a fool would use the Sophia 274B in this circuit. YMMV. I doubt Sophia will honour any warranty if the tube is used with a 150uF reservoir cap. In fact, I'd suggest that concerned owners should ask Woo to make the power supply circuit diagram for their individual amp, (as there seem to be more than a few variations), available to Sophia, so that they may validate that the tube is correctly used and warrantied in this circuit.


----------



## sclamb

That's great information and consistent with everything else I have read. Jack has told me that his design is compatible with the use of the 274B rectifier tube, and before he made that statement he said he was going to speak to Sophia Electric. On the basis that Jack knows way more than me about amp circuit design, I do not feel in a position to question him about his design and to ask him to 'prove' to me how it is compatible.

 I really think it requires a peer, someone with the knowledge to ask credible questions, to find out from Jack exactly what his design is and how it is compatible with the 274B tube.

 From my perspective, Jack has supplied me with an amp and he has made a statement about the compatibility. However, I would be very annoyed if I start eating through Sophia tubes at 150 USD a pop because the amp really is not compatible, but then I wonder why he would say it is when perhaps it isn't.

 I hope somene can have a conversation with Jack on a electrical engineer to electrical engineer level to find out the definitive specification and design to support or otherwise the view on compatibility with the 274B tube.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... I would be very annoyed if I start eating through Sophia tubes at 150 USD a pop because the amp really is not compatible, but then I wonder why he would say it is when perhaps it isn't...._

 

there's what you needed all along... his word to you that it is compatible...
 print out the email and mail it back with the bad tube. unless jack wants to
 discredit his business, he'd send you a full refund. don't settle for a replacement. if 274b is a requirement for your listening enjoyment i'd consider
 other amps or request jack to modify your amp for that purpose free of charge.

 you can ask him to replace the big first input cap with a small one...
 (smaller ones are always cheaper than their equivalent bigger brothers so it
 shouldn't be a issue with wooaudiod... or even request a sufficient resistor
 after the first cap or inductor in the circuit for added safeguard... vishay
 resistors are very cheap at less than $1 per piece for most ohm ratings...


----------



## jamato8

Parafeed has stated it very well. I hope what he has written is read because it seems like the same questions keep getting asked when the answer has been given. 

 I have spoken with Sophia Electric. They made it very clear that what they want is a 4uf cap used. Now I do use a 22uf cap but considering the lower B+ of the amp I feel comfortable with this. The original cap was 150uf. This is on the standard 6. On the SE the voltages are higher so the demand on the rectifier tube will be more. If, and I don't know for sure "if" the SE has an inductor (choke) input, it is most likely a 4 or 5 henry and may not be of very high resistance (DCR) so that when charging the first cap after the inductor (choke) and considering that it has a higher voltage, arcing could and does appear to be a consequence. 

 I have witnessed arcing for years in my own designs and that of others. I correct the problem when I realize I or someone else has designed the circuit incorrectly. Sure the tube may work for some time but it degrades and there is no reason for this to occur. All that needs to be done is to design the circuit to the correct parameters. It is simple once realized and does not compromise the sound.


----------



## sclamb

I appreciate what you say, but Jack is telling me his amp is compatible in design with the 274B tube. How can I argue with that, particularly as I do not know enough about the subject to talk to him on an equal basis.

 If he does not accept that it is not compatible, then it needs someone such as you or parafeed (people with a lot of credibility) to tell him what the issue is and see if he will accept the argument and offer to change amps to the correct spec. Alternatively, if he is happy, I will see if I can find someone in the UK to make the change for me and it won't cost Jack anything.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Parafeed has stated it very well. I hope what he has written is read because it seems like the same questions keep getting asked when the answer has been given. 

 I have spoken with Sophia Electric. They made it very clear that what they want is a 4uf cap used. Now I do use a 22uf cap but considering the lower B+ of the amp I feel comfortable with this. The original cap was 150uf. This is on the standard 6. On the SE the voltages are higher so the demand on the rectifier tube will be more. If, and I don't know for sure "if" the SE has an inductor (choke) input, it is most likely a 4 or 5 henry and may not be of very high resistance (DCR) so that when charging the first cap after the inductor (choke) and considering that it has a higher voltage, arcing could and does appear to be a consequence. 

 I have witnessed arcing for years in my own designs and that of others. I correct the problem when I realize I or someone else has designed the circuit incorrectly. Sure the tube may work for some time but it degrades and there is no reason for this to occur. All that needs to be done is to design the circuit to the correct parameters. It is simple once realized and does not compromise the sound._

 

Yes... "parafeed" has done an excellent job of taking "piecemeal ramblings" of others, and summarizing them into a concise, precise, specific statement of the issue, and the solutions. 

 And both of you have made it very clear - the SE definitely has circuit design limitations that make it clearly incompatible with the SP 274B MP - that's clear and definitive... at last! 

 It makes little difference that Jack is reporting that his circuit is compatible - it clearly isn't, or there would not be so many tube flash instances reported with the that tube. 

 So... I will not be purchasing the SP through Jack... but... only through SE. If they admit the amp is compatible (which I don't expect them to do), then I'll have the assurance that SE is providing the warranty directly... which they won't provide, unless they've reviewed the circuit and verified its compatible. And... I'll likely get the better 1yr warranty, they offer. 

 I may also cancel my order for the SE Maxed, and return to the WA6 Maxed, because the issue doesn't seem to be as prevalent, if at all, with the WA6.


----------



## sclamb

I will try and take as many detailed, close-up pictures as possible of the internals of my SE maxxed as possible at the weekend. If the definitive view if that the parts are not as required for 274B compatibility then I guess I will have to 'force' Jack to take the amp back and modify it.

 Since he says it is compatible, I wonder if he will want to charge me to make the mods (plus I will have 125 USD of shipping charges too)!

 If anyone in the UK is reading this and can make any mods that might be required after the internals have been reviewed by the experts here, please let me know. Sadly, I am not competent to do them if necessary.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes... "parafeed" has done an excellent job of taking "piecemeal ramblings" of others, and summarizing them into a concise, precise, specific statement of the issue, and the solutions. 

 And both of you have made it very clear - the SE definitely has circuit design limitations that make it clearly incompatible with the SP 274B MP - that's clear and definitive... at last! 

 It makes little difference that Jack is reporting that his circuit is compatible - it clearly isn't, or there would not be so many tube flash instances reported with the that tube. 

 So... I will not be purchasing the SP through Jack... but... only through SE. If they admit the amp is compatible (which I don't expect them to do), then I'll have the assurance that SE is providing the warranty directly... which they won't provide, unless they've reviewed the circuit and verified its compatible. And... I'll likely get the better 1yr warranty, they offer. 

 I may also cancel my order for the SE Maxed, and return to the WA6 Maxed, because the issue doesn't seem to be as prevalent, if at all, with the WA6._

 

I would not say that it is agreed to definitely have circuit limitations as no-one has seen the internals of the SE maxxed yet. Whilst I agree that it is likely, I will try and take some pictures for people here to review and then hopefully get the parts identified and the deficiencies (if any) itemised.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I may also cancel my order for the SE Maxed, and return to the WA6 Maxed, because the issue doesn't seem to be as prevalent, if at all, with the WA6._

 

sorry to say the wa6 maxxed w/ pdps has a 150 uf first cap behnd the rectifier.
 it shouldn't cost any additional fees to have the first cap to a 4uf...

 i'm sure you're aware that parafeed noted that his explanation applies to a C-L-C set up
 with a large first input cap... if this is what the brain powers of wooaudio has really set up,
 then it shouldn't be any problem adding a small first cap and reconfigure the rest of the
 resistors following it. or even a direct replacement of that large first input cap, if this is the
 case, with a smaller one like a 4uf should save everyone from a lot of anxiety...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would not say that it is agreed to definitely have circuit limitations as no-one has seen the internals of the SE maxxed yet. Whilst I agree that it is likely, I will try and take some pictures for people here to review and then hopefully get the parts identified and the deficiencies (if any) itemised._

 

it would really help if you can unscrew the board piece holding the 3 round caps
 as it will show where the green/red wire from the rectifier anode pin goes to...
 but don't do it if you're not comfortable around electric.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it would really help if you can unscrew the board piece holding the 3 round caps
 as it will show where the green/red wire from the rectifier anode pin goes to...
 but don't do it if you're not comfortable around electric._

 

I won't. I don't think this is worth dying over


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won't. I don't think this is worth dying over 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

i agree...


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry to say the wa6 maxxed w/ pdps has a 150 uf first cap behnd the rectifier.
 it shouldn't cost any additional fees to have the first cap to a 4uf...

 i'm sure you're aware that parafeed noted that his explanation applies to a C-L-C set up
 with a large first input cap... if this is what the brain powers of wooaudio has really set up,
 then it shouldn't be any problem adding a small first cap and reconfigure the rest of the
 resistors following it. or even a direct replacement of that large first input cap, if this is the
 case, with a smaller one like a 4uf should save everyone from a lot of anxiety..._

 

Of course... any of the solutions... suggested by you, or Jamato8, or anyone else... or... even those suggested on the Sophia Electric site (which are the same) would resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction. Its just that Jack does not seem to want to address this issue "head-on." Or... at the very least won't talk about it. 

 I've emailed him regarding my amp... and asked him to obtain a "certification" from Sophia Electric of the circuit's compatibility with the SP 274B MP. I won't purchase the tube, or amp, otherwise. I must have a real warranty on the tube... and... as I've suggested, I'll probably buy the 1 yr tube directly from SE, not the 30 day tube from Jack.

*Just one question... *in case I attempt to get Jack to reconfigure the circuit in some manner to resolve this issue... *will reducing the cap size to 4uf... compromise the sound with either low, or high, impedance phones in any other way???*


----------



## sclamb

See this message I just sent to Jack:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo...ml#post4807521

 Awaiting a reply as I type.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ...*Just one question... *in case I attempt to get Jack to reconfigure the circuit in some manner to resolve this issue... *will reducing the cap size to 4uf... compromise the sound with either low, or high, impedance phones in any other way???*_

 

not to my knowledge... if replacing a larger cap with a very small cap is an
 issue, then i'd suggest just adding the 4uF cap in front, to be the input cap,
 and a resistor... jack and his partners can probably do this in their sleep...
 although it would mean an extra fee for the extra cap and resistor... i doubt
 they'd have to significantly modify the internals of the chassis to accommodate
 this.


----------



## dan_can

I swapped in 5U4G, it flashed on start up just as 274B. My max'ed out WA6 SE hums through headphones since day one with both 5U4G and 274B. I sent it back to Jack for service and got it back yesterday. It still hums. Very disappointing and sad.


----------



## jamato8

Does it hum with nothing plugged into it but turned on? With the headphones plugged in but no source see if it hums.

 The flashing is no good. Sorry about that. It is such an easy fix. I wish I had an SE to take some measurements on for current draw and voltages.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I just want to go on record that my Sophia on my WA6 maxed (non-SE) does not flash, and performs flawlessly. I am thrilled with it.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I swapped in 5U4G, it flashed on start up just as 274B. My max'ed out WA6 SE hums through headphones since day one with both 5U4G and 274B. I sent it back to Jack for service and got it back yesterday. It still hums. Very disappointing and sad._

 

That is bad news and sorry to hear it. I have not seen the Sovtek 5AR4 flash, and I don't get a hum at all with any tube through the headphones. I am waiting for some RCA and Sylvania 5U4G tubes to see how they work (and whether they flash). If they do then I will return the amp, either asking for a modification to be made or a refund. Might try the Zana Deux then.

 I did just turn on the amp in a dark room after a night with it off using the 274B tube. No flash happened and no noise in the headphones. Odd!


----------



## dan_can

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does it hum with nothing plugged into it but turned on? With the headphones plugged in but no source see if it hums.

 The flashing is no good. Sorry about that. It is such an easy fix. I wish I had an SE to take some measurements on for current draw and voltages._

 

It hums with nothing connected to it and volume completely turned off.


----------



## jamato8

I find that since I have gotten more and more hours on the Black Gate nonpolar caps and the Mundorf gold/silver oil caps, the sound with many of the rectifiers is just excellent. Right now I am listening to a nice old brown based 5R4G charcoal black smooth plate and the sound is very dimensional and very open. Fun.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It hums with nothing connected to it and volume completely turned off._

 

So no ground loop then, sigh, this sucks. When you sent it back did you tell them that it hummed or is that why you sent it back? Since no one else seems to be having the hum, which often is a 60 cycle hum it has to be a defect somewhere. 

 Is the problem in both R and L channels?


----------



## dan_can

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So no ground loop then, sigh, this sucks. When you sent it back did you tell them that it hummed or is that why you sent it back? Since no one else seems to be having the hum, which often is a 60 cycle hum it has to be a defect somewhere. 

 Is the problem in both R and L channels?_

 

It's with both channels. It's sent back because of the hum. Jack looked at it and told me the cause of the hum was loose sockets. I'll try it with more tubes and see whether the hum is due to defective tubes.


----------



## takezo

hey john, didn't you once try an inductor in your wa6 and noted 
 that it too hummed? maybe the inductor is the cause of this hum?
 will putting a small cap in front or a resistor behind it lower the hum?

 i guess the inductor being of insufficient "henry" may be the cause
 of both the humming and the sparks...


----------



## sclamb

My amp has a low volume transformer hum but nothing can be heard through the headphones. That doesn't sound good at all. I hope you can get that fixed soon.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey john, didn't you once try an inductor in your wa6 and noted 
 that it too hummed? maybe the inductor is the cause of this hum?
 will putting a small cap in front or a resistor behind it lower the hum?

 i guess the inductor being of insufficient "henry" may be the cause
 of both the humming and the sparks..._

 

It isn't so much the henry number of the inductor as also the resistance to the DC flow. The resistance slows the inrush, which is what causes the rectifier to arc and even if it doesn't arc, it can be stressed, which equates to a shorter life. You could have a 5 henry inductor with large enough wire that maybe the resistance would be 15 ohms and that wouldn't be enough to slow the inrush. You need something like 150 to 200 ohms to do a good job. An inductor is a current source and caps are a voltage source. I have a preamp I built with ASC caps and 3 inductors per side, what a sweet sounding pre. There are formulas for using inductors and bleed resistors used with them. 

 I did try some small inductors on the tubes. I got hum with just the 4uf cap after the rectifier but with the 22uf it is fine. I am tempted to add an inductor to my mine mounting it to the back plate.


----------



## Parafeed

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If anyone in the UK is reading this and can make any mods that might be required after the internals have been reviewed by the experts here, please let me know._

 

Shoot me a PM. I'm more than happy to help, but I'm uncomfortable speaking to Woo directly about this issue as a) I don't own the amplifier, and b) the amplifier is not on the workbench in front of me. 

 If you want to send me the amplifier, I'll happily draw a circuit diagram and mod it for you. But you need to be aware that doing any modification to the amplifier, (even if it's just adding a single series resistor to the power supply), will probably invalidate any warranty you have with Woo. Personally, this would not concern me - it's a tube amp and I have test gear. But you might feel more comfortable sending the amp back to Woo, even with the $125 shipping charge.


----------



## Gradofan2

Based on your last couple of points... 

 Is the tube arc / flash and the hum... just an issue with the SE, as the result of its design... or... is it also an issue with the standard WA6?

 From these comments... I assume the standard WA6 does not use inductors. 

 It seems that no one with the standard WA6 (maxed, or unmaxed), is reporting any issues with tube arc / flash, or hum... but... that these issues are exclussive to the SE version.

 Is that correct??? 

 Perhaps... for me... the easiest solution is just to opt for the standard WA6 Maxed (which I originally ordered)... and to forget about the SE? 

 Especially, if Jack is maintaining that there is not an issue with the SE being compatible with the SP 274B MP (which he seems to be).


----------



## atbglenn

My standard 6 never experienced humming or rectifier flashing. dan can said his SE flashed with a 5U4G. I used a Svetlana 5U4G for several hundred hours with no flashing or humming. It makes me wonder if there's a design flaw in the SE. Is it true the SE uses higher voltage for the Rectifier? If so, how much higher is it?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's with both channels. It's sent back because of the hum. Jack looked at it and told me the cause of the hum was loose sockets. I'll try it with more tubes and see whether the hum is due to defective tubes._

 

loose socket can do this but i'd think it'll kill the tube before it allows any hum
 thru... i'm inclined to think it's a design issue... there must be too much voltage
 and or current being emitted... i wouldn't live with an amp that hums (through
 the headphone) and would request a refund (if they insist nothing can be done)...


----------



## robinje

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_loose socket can do this but i'd think it'll kill the tube before it allows any hum
 thru... i'm inclined to think it's a design issue... there must be too much voltage
 and or current being emitted... i wouldn't live with an amp that hums (through
 the headphone) and would request a refund (if they insist nothing can be done)..._

 

I don't think the hum is a design issue. My 6SE is totally silent. The ONLY issue I have with it is an intermittantly flashing rectifier (Sophia). Other than concern about this, I am totally satisfied with my 6SE. It's the best sounding amp I've ever had.


----------



## sclamb

Same here. No hum through the headphones, only with the transformer, but I know how I will stop that as the actual transformer is very quiet and the hum is being amplified by the casing.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Parafeed* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shoot me a PM. I'm more than happy to help, but I'm uncomfortable speaking to Woo directly about this issue as a) I don't own the amplifier, and b) the amplifier is not on the workbench in front of me. 

 If you want to send me the amplifier, I'll happily draw a circuit diagram and mod it for you. But you need to be aware that doing any modification to the amplifier, (even if it's just adding a single series resistor to the power supply), will probably invalidate any warranty you have with Woo. Personally, this would not concern me - it's a tube amp and I have test gear. But you might feel more comfortable sending the amp back to Woo, even with the $125 shipping charge._

 

Wow, thanks very much. If I can't get any satisfactory answer from Jack then I guess I won't worry about warranty issues either. I will come back to you on this as soon as I have exhausted progress with Jack.

 I work in London so bringing the amp to you will be easy for me


----------



## yoff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robinje* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ... My 6SE is totally silent. ..._

 

It is the same with my new one (less than 50 h) and no flashing Sophia yet . Will keep you all informed as soon as it happens .


----------



## sclamb

I am also wondering if there are differences with the SE maxxed versus the SE. I think the flashing reported has been with the maxxed versions.

 I would also be interested to know if Jack changes the design without making it public. If the amp really isn't compatible with the 274B then he might change it to avoid future issues, but avoid a backlog of modification requests by not making it public.

 I got my SE about three weeks ago, so not sure how that compares with yours yoff in terms of build date.


----------



## yoff

Mine arrived on Thu 9/11/2008 and the delivery had been delayed two weeks due to silver chassis beeing out of stock : it should not be younger than yours ... and *robinje* reports " ... intermittantly flashing rectifier (Sophia)" with his non maxxed versions .


----------



## sclamb

Thanks. Mine arrived around 5th Sept 2008 so the only difference is mine is the maxxed version. I wonder of there is a component failure in some of the amps.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is the same with my new one (less than 50 h) and no flashing Sophia yet . Will keep you all informed as soon as it happens ._

 

Is your WA6 SE the Maxed version, or standard version? 

 Did you buy it directly from Woo Audio? If so, when?

 It does seem unusual that some would have issues, and others wouldn't. To this point it seemed like the issues were common to the SEs and that the WA6s had none. 

 But... now... it seems the issues may be common to the maxed SEs? 

 Does anyone with the standard SE have any of these issues?

 Jack is maintaining there's nothing wrong with the amps... but... its the tubes. I might suspect the tubes, if it weren't for all the caution by Sophia Electric regarding the values / design of the circuits they consider compatible, with which the SE does not appear to comply ... and... the informed discussion of the issue by several of the EEs in this thread.

 I wish you were right... that Jack was now modifying them as he produced them to resolve the issue. Unfortunately, if he is, by not announcing his mods, he's allowing doubts to linger, which will inhibit future sales to informed buyers. Though, I suppose he could simply "guarantee" to future buyers that the amp will have none of these issues, and that he'll pay for the return shipping, if they do. That would be a pretty "iron-clad" guarantee - which would be hard to pass up. Certainly, I would think the issue would present itself in the 15 day return period he allows, so if he also paid the return shipping - there would be no risk. Though, I suppose the amp may actually be stressing the tube, though it doesn't arc / flash - and you'd never know.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robinje* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think the hum is a design issue. My 6SE is totally silent. The ONLY issue I have with it is an intermittantly flashing rectifier (Sophia). Other than concern about this, I am totally satisfied with my 6SE. It's the best sounding amp I've ever had._

 

good to hear... it just didn't make sense wooaudio would put a unit out in the
 market that has an inherent hum thru the headphones...


----------



## robinje

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am also wondering if there are differences with the SE maxxed versus the SE. I think the flashing reported has been with the maxxed versions.

 I would also be interested to know if Jack changes the design without making it public. If the amp really isn't compatible with the 274B then he might change it to avoid future issues, but avoid a backlog of modification requests by not making it public.

 I got my SE about three weeks ago, so not sure how that compares with yours yoff in terms of build date._

 

I got my maxxed 6SE maybe a week or so before you.


----------



## robinje

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine arrived on Thu 9/11/2008 and the delivery had been delayed two weeks due to silver chassis beeing out of stock : it should not be younger than yours ... and *robinje* reports " ... intermittantly flashing rectifier (Sophia)" with his non maxxed versions ._

 

FYI...my 6SE is indeed "maxxed".


----------



## yoff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ... Is your WA6 SE the Maxed version, or standard version? 

 Did you buy it directly from Woo Audio? If so, when? ..._

 

It is a WA6-SE standard ordered directly from Woo Audio on O7/07/2008 along with a Sophia Princess and received on 9/11/2008 .

 Till now nothing wrong happened except the fact that they did not send me the stock rectifier valve and did not offered to send it anyway . (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## jamato8

So I have been listening to my 5U4GB, and other nice tubes. Great sounds but then I put the Sophia back in. I tell you, this rectifier is tops. Everything is better. It is just more delicate at retrieving the details and yet the bass is solid and very tuneful with a taught twang to it. 

 I also put the Sophia in my amp right after taking the previous rectifier out very shortly after turning the amp off. This isn't the best thing to do but I wanted to see how my expensive rectifier would handle it. With my headphones on and turned the amp on and as the sound came up, everything just coasted along into the music. Total mA's drawn by the 6DE7's in my amp is around 70mA's, 20 under the max.

 So any favorite tubes?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I have been listening to my 5U4GB, and other nice tubes. Great sounds but then I put the Sophia back in. I tell you, this rectifier is tops. Everything is better. It is just more delicate at retrieving the details and yet the bass is solid and very tuneful with a taught twang to it. 

 I also put the Sophia in my amp right after taking the previous rectifier out very shortly after turning the amp off. This isn't the best thing to do but I wanted to see how my expensive rectifier would handle it. With my headphones on and turned the amp on and as the sound came up, everything just coasted along into the music. Total mA's drawn by the 6DE7's in my amp is around 70mA's, 20 under the max.

 So any favorite tubes?_

 

Can you tell me... if the WA6 Maxed circuit configuration is compatible with the Sophia Princess 274B MP? Or, is it likely to stress the tube to early failure too? 

 I realize the mods you've made to yours are compatible.... but... is the stock WA6 Maxed compatible? 

 I don't think I want to struggle with Woo Audio to get them to resolve the compatibility issue with the SE - so, I'm wondering if the WA6 Maxed is OK.


----------



## musicmind

Right now, the GE 5r4gya is my favourite...very dynamic with great bass energy..more so than the Sylvania 5u4gb I have. I like the thicker sound more so than that of gz33 and gz34 I have. This might not be a lean and neutral sounding tube, but the slightly "heavy handed" warm sound works well for me with jazz and classical.


----------



## dan_can

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_loose socket can do this but i'd think it'll kill the tube before it allows any hum
 thru... i'm inclined to think it's a design issue... there must be too much voltage
 and or current being emitted... i wouldn't live with an amp that hums (through
 the headphone) and would request a refund (if they insist nothing can be done)..._

 

I have no idea whether the hum is due to the design. The only thing I'm 100% positive is my max'ed out 6SE hums through headphones (HD650, SR225, K501, and Edition 9) since day 1 I received it. And Jack acknowledged the problem and believed he fixed the problem before he shipped the amp back to me. Unfortunately the problem is still there. I just emailed Jack and I'll see what he's going to say about it.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no idea whether the hum is due to the design. The only thing I'm 100% positive is my max'ed out 6SE hums through headphones (HD650, SR225, K501, and Edition 9) since day 1 I received it. And Jack acknowledged the problem and believed he fixed the problem before he shipped the amp back to me. Unfortunately the problem is still there. I just emailed Jack and I'll see what he's going to say about it._

 

does the hum increase with the increase of the volume pot? if not, then the
 issue is after the volume pot in the circuitry... so that rules out the power
 supply unit... (i may be very wrong about this)

 it can be a socket problem, or anything in between that and
 the volume pot... does the hum change in volume or loudness with different
 output tubes?

 please keep up informed of your amp issue.


----------



## dan_can

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does the hum increase with the increase of the volume pot? if not, then the
 issue is after the volume pot in the circuitry... so that rules out the power
 supply unit... it can be a socket problem, or anything in between that and
 the volume pot... does the hum change in volume or loudness with different
 output tubes?

 please keep up informed of your amp issue._

 

The hum does not increase with the increase of the volume pot at all. The hum does change in loudness with different output tubes. I really hope it's due to the defective output tubes.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The hum does not increase with the increase of the volume pot at all. The hum does change in loudness with different output tubes. I really hope it's due to the defective output tubes._

 

So you have more than one set of 6DE7's and it has the hum with either set?


----------



## dan_can

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you have more than one set of 6DE7's and it has the hum with either set?_

 

I've got four sets of 6EW7's and three sets of 6DE7s, and it has the hum with every single set, just some are "quieter" than others.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got four sets of 6EW7's and three sets of 6DE7s, and it has the hum with every single set, just some are "quieter" than others._

 

if you mentioned this to jack, it must be why he's suggesting it may be a
 socket to tube contact issue... did he replace or fix the socket he mentioned?

 it may not even be a "socket" issue but the screws next to them protruding
 and getting in the way of a flush insertion of the tubes to the sockets...
 others have noticed the larger tubes don't get completely inserted into
 the front sockets due to the pair of screw ends getting in the way...


----------



## jamato8

No, it isn't the screws. They don't obstruct the placement of the 6DE7. It is in the power supply. I don't think it was the socket either. It doesn't take long to fix.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it isn't the screws. They don't obstruct the placement of the 6DE7. It is in the power supply. I don't think it was the socket either. It doesn't take long to fix._

 

hey, john, have you been in contact with jack recently? maybe you can offer him
 your take on this matter...


----------



## jamato8

I haven't been for a while. I offered suggestions, that is about all I can do. They went with the pseudo dual supply but the way to implement the power for the 1st section of the tube, which gets rid of the hum, they did not. It is a simple fix.


----------



## takezo

you're right... it's such a simple fix... just moving a pair of resistors
 to the 2nd cap of the main ps... it'll probably take them some time
 to realize this, just as it did with your pseudo dual ps application...

 * wait, that's for the wa6 in a single chassis.. for the SE i guess you'd
 need a pair of extra filter caps since the powersupply and front sections
 are now apart in separate chassis?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you're right... it's such a simple fix... just moving a pair of resistors
 to the 2nd cap of the main ps... it'll probably take them some time
 to realize this, just as it did with your pseudo dual ps application...

 * wait, that's for the wa6 in a single chassis.. for the SE i guess you'd
 need a pair of extra filter caps since the powersupply and front sections
 are now apart in separate chassis?_

 

But... I wasn't aware there was any issue with the WA6 Maxed w PDPSU.

 Is it?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But... I wasn't aware there was any issue with the WA6 Maxed w PDPSU.

 Is it?_

 

There hasn't been any reports of arcing in the 6.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you're right... it's such a simple fix... just moving a pair of resistors
 to the 2nd cap of the main ps... it'll probably take them some time
 to realize this, just as it did with your pseudo dual ps application...

 * wait, that's for the wa6 in a single chassis.. for the SE i guess you'd
 need a pair of extra filter caps since the powersupply and front sections
 are now apart in separate chassis?_

 

I don't know where they come off of the supply for front section of the tube. They will figure it out.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But... I wasn't aware there was any issue with the WA6 Maxed w PDPSU.

 Is it?_

 

no, not the wa6 w/ pdpsu... i'm referring to another member whose SE has a
 humming issue thru the headphones.


----------



## jamato8

The nice thing that Woo came up in using this tube, which others have tried and reviewed as ok but not dynamic and lacking some in bass, is that it works in this circuit, very, very well. Also, since the driver section and power section are in the same tube, there exists almost no signal path between them. Before I modified the 6 I wasn't totally impressed though the sound was enjoyable. Done right and at least with the pseudo dual power supply, as many of you have found out, this amp gives world class performance. Now to get rid of some of the small issues that have come up.


----------



## yoff

Would you help me with this ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


 Brief Introduction to 6DE7/6EW7:
 6DE7/6EW7 is a dual triode tube, consisting of one drive triode and one power triode. Its performance is similar to a combination of a 6SN7 and a 2A3. 
 

That is what one can read at Woo Audio about WA6 : two different tubes , two different fonctions and they do not have to be mixed ?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you help me with this ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







 That is what one can read at Woo Audio about WA6 : two different tubes , two different fonctions and they do not have to be mixed ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't understand your question. The internal construction of the 6DE7 or 6EW7 has two sections. They are different in function. One is a power tube section and one is a higher gain, lower current draw, driver section in one tube. You have two tubes in one envelope.


----------



## yoff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ... You have two tubes in one envelope._

 

Thank you , that is what I did't get well !


----------



## LarryK2

. . . arrived today. It replaces my WA3. Out of the box with the stock tubes, my AKG K701s sound great, and the Senn. HD 650s sound even better. I'm impressed. I thought I'd let it burn in a bit before installing the Sophia Princess. I've only listened to a couple of CDs so far - got to go try some vinyl now - should be yet another level. How much fun is this? The WA3 will be going to my office with my PC as source - seems almost decadent.

 Cheers,
 Larry


----------



## Spareribs

Congrats on the amp. Burn in is a good idea. Woo rocks! oooh yeah...


----------



## sclamb

Congrats Larry. Just wait until you try the Sophia - another level!


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LarryK2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_. . . arrived today. It replaces my WA3. Out of the box with the stock tubes, my AKG K701s sound great, and the Senn. HD 650s sound even better. I'm impressed. I thought I'd let it burn in a bit before installing the Sophia Princess. I've only listened to a couple of CDs so far - got to go try some vinyl now - should be yet another level. How much fun is this? The WA3 will be going to my office with my PC as source - seems almost decadent.

 Cheers,
 Larry_

 

that maxxed unit needs a long burn-in to sound its best... approx. 750+ hrs...
 and then some... before that, it will sound focused and expansive one day...
 smeared and congested another... but please don't burn the house down
 by playing the amp 24/7... have fun with it.


----------



## Torero

Takezo, please more opinions about EML 274B and comparing with Sophia.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Torero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Takezo, please more opinions about EML 274B and comparing with Sophia._

 

i've about 50hrs. on the princess now... and it's really opened up.
 gone are the congested mids and unfocused highs... it's very similar to the
 mullar gz30 except the princess has a thundering bass that is as tight and taut
 as it is deep... very impressive... if you love growling spine tightening bass
 with detail and a spring to it, then you'll love the princess... i agree w/ jamato
 and headphoneaddict when they say that it's one hell of a rectifier... once
 fully burned in.

 i haven't had the chance to put more hours on the eml 274b recently, but
 for that 6-7 hrs. of initial burn-in, it still left a great impression in my mind...
 it had the biggest headroom of any tube i've experienced and more importantly
 the bass, mids and highs were incredibly focused and refined... nothing sounded
 harsh nor recessed thru it... unbelievable realism of acoustic timbre and the
 separation of notes was the best i've heard...
 i'll have to get back to it once the princess stops changing its sound signature.

 ps: the 5r4ga is surprising similar in overall sound signature to the princess...
 the princess is slightly more focused at the bottom and has a larger soundstage
 now, but at 50+ hrs. it is very similar to the 5r4ga, which is an underrated 
 rectifier like the 5r4gyb and 5u4gb...


----------



## jamato8

Yes, there are a lot of really fun rectifiers for not too much money. 

 takezo, your description of the sound is very good.


----------



## takezo

the princess is finely shedding her weight... the bass region is so
 much more clear and focused now... nuances are coming to the 
 forefront that wasn't there prior... imagine a 300 pound heavyweight
 ballerina with the lightest feet prancing thru mine fields with
 grace and alacrity...
 i have to say the bass is better than the gz34 brown large base... 
 the mids are almost as good, very transparent but not as liquid 
 as the brown large base... yet. i'm eager to see how she sounds 
 at 80 or 100+ hrs...


----------



## Spareribs

Rectifiers are also sexy tubes too brotha.


----------



## jamato8

alacrity? Now that is one descriptive term you don't hear when talking about tubes very often. :^)


----------



## takezo

i was aiming for "briskness with a dash of color"...LOL


----------



## LarryK2

. . . my maxed Woo 6 (still using the stock tubes) has easily surpassed my Woo 3 in most respects. Last night I listened very critically to the first movement of Mahler's 6th Symphony with Solti and Chicago (London LP). This is a record I know very well (one of my references), and I heard things I've never heard before. 

 I think I'm going to love this amp!


----------



## 3rdRock

You ain't heard nothin' yet! Just wait!


----------



## takezo

hey 3rdrock, it's been awhile... if you haven't done so already, i highly encourage you
 to look into jamato's pseudo dual power supply modification... it's more significant than the blackgates... seriously.


----------



## 3rdRock

Yes... I understand from reading the past threads that the pseudo power supply mod makes a significant difference... I'm just not confident enough with my limited circuit knowledge to take on the task myself!


----------



## musicmind

Thanks for the feedback Takezo.

 Quick question, would you say the 5r4gyb and the 5r4ga have similar sound?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i've about 50hrs. on the princess now... and it's really opened up.
 gone are the congested mids and unfocused highs... it's very similar to the
 mullar gz30 except the princess has a thundering bass that is as tight and taut
 as it is deep... very impressive... if you love growling spine tightening bass
 with detail and a spring to it, then you'll love the princess... i agree w/ jamato
 and headphoneaddict when they say that it's one hell of a rectifier... once
 fully burned in.

 i haven't had the chance to put more hours on the eml 274b recently, but
 for that 6-7 hrs. of initial burn-in, it still left a great impression in my mind...
 it had the biggest headroom of any tube i've experienced and more importantly
 the bass, mids and highs were incredibly focused and refined... nothing sounded
 harsh nor recessed thru it... unbelievable realism of acoustic timbre and the
 separation of notes was the best i've heard...
 i'll have to get back to it once the princess stops changing its sound signature.

 ps: the 5r4ga is surprising similar in overall sound signature to the princess...
 the princess is slightly more focused at the bottom and has a larger soundstage
 now, but at 50+ hrs. it is very similar to the 5r4ga, which is an underrated 
 rectifier like the 5r4gyb and 5u4gb..._


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the feedback Takezo.

 Quick question, would you say the 5r4gyb and the 5r4ga have similar sound?_

 

hi, they sound somewhat different in that the "-yb" is more neutral in the mids
 and has an airier feel at top... the "-a" is fuller sounding but sounds rather
 balanced... i like both...


----------



## musicmind

Thanks Takezo, I just ordered one, hope to receive a 1960's RCA 5r4gyb next week.


----------



## sclamb

Is the TJ Fullmusic 274B/n ST Rectifier Mesh Plate tube the same as the Sophia Princess 274B/n Mesh Plate tube? They look identical and I assume that come from the same factory. The TJ has a currect spec of 160ma whereas the Princess is stated as 90ma, so perhaps there are internal differences.

 The TJ seems to sell for less, so if it is the same innards then I may opt for oner of these as a backup.


----------



## jamato8

If it is the same tube then it would be rated for 90mA. If it is the solid plate then it would be the 160mA. Also in talking with Sophia Elect they test the tubes. It is hard to know if some of the tubes sold under the other name are tested the same but maybe they are. What is the price and where is the company?


----------



## sclamb

The tube is here with the description:

NEW TJ Fullmusic 274B/n ST Rectifier Mesh Plate Tube - eBay (item 180293265138 end time Oct-25-08 03:53:33 PDT)

 It looks exactly the same as the SE tube, and it looks like the same plate construction, just 40 USD cheaper.


----------



## jamato8

The seller doesn't have a great reputation from what I have read. Buy one and let us know.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tube is here with the description:

NEW TJ Fullmusic 274B/n ST Rectifier Mesh Plate Tube - eBay (item 180293265138 end time Oct-25-08 03:53:33 PDT)

 It looks exactly the same as the SE tube, and it looks like the same plate construction, just 40 USD cheaper._

 

Avoid this seller!! I purchased a tube from him and never received it. I filed a complaint with paypal and ended up getting my money back.


----------



## sclamb

Well, reputation aside (sorry to hear you had a big problem), I really wondered about the different spec of what looks like the same tube. Are the SE tubes made in a factory that brands the tubes accordingly?


----------



## xenithon

IIRC correctly, Sophia, TJ and Full Music are all produced in the same factory. I believe Sophia get the _top 10%_ or something along those lines; I am not certain about TJ/Ful Music. If memory serves, all are made at the Full Music factory (in Tianjin, China).


----------



## sclamb

Thanks xenithon. What does 'top 10%' mean I wonder? Either a tube is good or it isn't, so I would expect them to all be 100% if they leave the factory.


----------



## musicmind

The store JACmusic, based in Germany, has the TJFullmusic 274B rectifiers and their price is better than ebay.
 I'm not sure what the quality difference is between TJFM and Sophia.


----------



## Gradofan2

You know... you're not really saving that much over the SE Sophia Princess tubes. 

 It is likely they are not as high quaility as the SE tubes... or... its likely they would be sold as SE brand tubes. 

 Moreover, you've got a local vendor (if you're in the US), that will honor the warranty - either 30 days, or 1 yr, depending upon which quality of tube you buy.

 So... what's the savings worth to you? 

 Is it enough to save $30, over the SE SP 30 day tube, or $80 over the SE SP 1 yr tube? 

 For me... I don't think so.

 On the other hand... if you are unsure whether the WA6 / WA6 SE is compatible with the tube... and you're not sure whether SE will warrant the tube (because it might not match the specs of the amp), or you're worried that the tube may burn out after the warranty expires - then you may want to consider the lesser expensive clone. I'm more inclined to press Jack and SE to confirm the tube matches the amp, and that they will honor the warranty - in which case, I'd likely get the $200 1 yr tube from SE. And... if I couldn't get them to do so... I wouldn't buy the SE, or the alternative TJ/FM tube.


----------



## Orcin

I am going to ask sort of an odd question, but I am trying to (1) understand the benefit of these mods and (2) relate what you are hearing to something I am familiar with. I think it might make more sense this way than asking you to tell me what percentage improvement the mods make.

 John or Larry would be very qualified to do this, but maybe others have heard all of these amps and could also chime in.

 The question: Please rate the following amps on a scale of 1 to 10...
 - Predator or Pico (or any good portable amp)
 - Woo Audio 3
 - Woo Audio 6 stock
 - Woo Audio 6 with all upgrades including pdps and SP rectifier

 If you say, it depends upon the phones etc, just assume using something mainstream in a home system. If you haven't heard one or more, just leave it out. The real idea is between the last two choices anyway.


----------



## jamato8

I haven't heard the Pico.

 9 modified 6
 7.75 6
 7.5 3

 A 10 would be something I have not heard yet


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't heard the Pico.

 9 modified 6
 7.75 6
 7.5 3

 A 10 would be something I have not heard yet_

 


 Thanks, John. That's very interesting.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John or Larry would be very qualified to do this, but maybe others have heard all of these amps and could also chime in.

 The question: Please rate the following amps on a scale of 1 to 10...
 - Predator or Pico (or any good portable amp)
 - Woo Audio 3
 - Woo Audio 6 stock
 - Woo Audio 6 with all upgrades including pdps and SP rectifier
_

 

Hmmm... Never heard the WA3. Out of what I have heard I will rate the best I've heard as a 10, instead of saying a 10 is still out there to be heard. That makes it easier to scale down from the best I've heard as a real existing reference point. Anything at a 7 and up is excellent. Anything past a 9.00 could be the end of most persons search for perfection. I have not read any other answers past your question, as that may influence my ranking. Let's assume scores are with HD600 and APS V3 cable (or RS-1 or Edition 9 where appropriate), and I'll throw in a couple of amps not on your list for more reference points.

 10.0 Single Power ES-1 with Sennheiser Orpheus HE90
 9.30 Woo GES maxed 100 hours with Baby Orpheus HE60
 9.15 Melos SHA Gold with balanced HD600 from pre-amp XLR
 9.15 Single Power Square Wave XL 2008 model w/Blackgates and balanced HD600
 9.00 Woo WA6 maxed with PDPS and Sophia Princess single ended HD600
 9.00 Single Power Square Wave XL 2008 model w/Blackgates and with single ended HD600
 9.00 Zana Deux single ended HD600
 9.00 Melos SHA Gold with single ended HD600
 8.00 Woo WA6 maxed with Bugle Boy GZ34 or Sylvania 5U4G and 600-800 hours burn-in (no PDPS or Sophia)
 7.50 Grahm Slee beta NOVO with 500 hours
 7.20 Woo WA6 maxed with 50 hours burn-in and stock tubes 
 7.20 DV336i with Sylvania "bad boy" and Tung Sol 5998
 7.05 Predator
 7.00 Pico

 I would bet that once I hear a Stax O2 Mk1 or HE90 with Headamp Blue Hawaii SE that the new setup will become a 10, and everything below it will be squished closer together (mainly the HE90 and HE60 will have to move down). But anything at 9 or better likely stays above a 9. Note: I have 4 amps at a 9.00 with single ended headphones and 2 of those amps take a jump when driving those same headphones balanced. 

 I reserve the right to randomly change the rank for my own personal reasons in the future.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I reserve the right to randomly change the rank for my own personal reasons in the future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Absolutely, all in good fun here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well, that is a really interesting list. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

 I want to preface these comments by making it clear that I am a total newb. I've never heard a dedicated home headphone amp period. That will all change two weeks from now at the Houston Head-Fi meet! But for now, my only frame of reference is the sound via my Predator (which is why I threw it in the list), and my integrated amp.

 So, the first thing that surprises me is how high the portable amps rate. Granted, these are pretty good and relatively expensive portable amps, but I was expecting them to be around a 5.

 Next, I am fascinated by the ratings of the DV336i and John's Woo3 score. I think what this tells me is that a tube amp probably has more upside than a solid-state amp, assuming that you like the overall signature of a tube amp. By this, I mean that a skilled tube-roller can move the performance of the amp up a notch, whereas there's not much you can do with a ss amp - you either like it or you don't.

 Finally, I see a pretty strong dividing line at about $1,000. Below $1,000 (more or less), there is a strong group of contenders to choose from based on feature set, sound signature, build quality, cosmetics, and customer support. Once you get over $1,000, you are in a new league with again a strong set of contenders.

 The point of all this rambling, please? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it might be nice if you tied it to the subject of the thread? Well...

 I am trying to decide whether to buy a Woo 6 with no upgrades or all of them (except the attenuator). It seems pretty clear to me that the upgrades move the amp across this imaginary line that I've drawn, and probably reward me enough for the additional investment. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 I'm not really into spending money to be able to say I have the flavor of the month. But I am willing to spend double to get a 20% improvement. If that 20% keeps me from wanting to upgrade as quickly, it could be a reasonable investment. That's about what I see here.


----------



## Gradofan2

I'd get the Maxed WA6 with PDPSU - I think you're likely to believe the investment is worth it. 

 I would not get the standard WA6. 

 I would not get the DV336i.

 Or... I'd get the DV332, or DV337 - both of which are great values, and have great sound. I'd bet they sound nearly as good as the Maxed WA6, for far less money. 

 I found the DV332, sounds virtually as good as the SP Extreme - very close.

 And... I'm very sceptical that my WA6 SE Maxed, will sound much better than my DV332.

 But... if you're going to "spring" for a Woo amp... I believe I'd go with the WA6 Maxed - as the "sweet spot." And... it reportedly does not have any issues using the SE Sophia Princess 274B, which are reported with the WA6 SE. 

 In fact, I'm still debating whether to cancel my WA6 SE order and just get the WA6 Maxed with the SP 274B - for that reason alone. At least, until Jack reports he's resolved the issue with the WA6 SE and that tube.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am trying to decide whether to buy a Woo 6 with no upgrades or all of them (except the attenuator)._

 

Orcin,

 The difference soundwise between even a maxed-out WA6, and one with the Psuedo supply and the other mods Jamato, Takezo, myself and others have, is not a small one. From what I have read here, the jump from a stock Woo is even greater. 

 I don't mean to try and coerce you into emptying your wallet a little more, but going the whole nine with this amp will pay dividends that I'm sure you'll be very happy with. I know I am.

 Just make sure you budget for a good rectifier. A $150 Sophia Princess will take this amp, with all the mods, over the top.

 My $.02


----------



## Gradofan2

OK... hopefully some of you can advise me.

 Jack, has suggested I switch to use the EML Mesh Plate 5U4G as an alternative to the SP 274B - he suggests its better able to manage the current in-rush of the WA6 SE... and... it sounds just as good.

 I've seen some of you comment that it does... and others... that it doesn't sound as good as the SP 274B.

 So... what's the story - does it sound as good, or not???

 Also... here are the requirements of the EML 5U4G MP tube:

 "Typical Conditions 
 for C-L-C filter See: Note 2 
 DC output voltage: 470Volt 
*Total rectified current: 225mA *
*First capacitor, connected to plates: 4uF *
*Choke: 10...20 Henry* 
 Second capacitor max: 29uF 

 For a total (C1 + C2) *capacitance above 33uF, a limiting series resistor must be used*, so the peak in-rush current through the choke is limited to 1A. Otherwise tube damage can result. MUST MEASURE. Can not be calculated in a reliable way. For lowest hum, this resistor is in series with the choke. So you get a C-LR-C filter. *In this way 200uF is possible.*"


 It sounds like the EML tube has the same specs as the 274B, and that the circuit of the WA6 SE must likely be modified for either one to be compatible - and for the warranty from SElec, or EML, to apply (though Jack may honor the warranty, because he's representing the tube is fine in these circuits). Until SElec is willing to stipulate that they will honor their warranty in the WA6 amps - I would not buy them from SElec, but only from Jack (though, I'm not sure what a 30 day warranty is really worth - since its likely the tube will not fail until after that period... and... Jack maintains that arcing / flashing is not a tube failure covered under the warranty, or anything to worry about).

 Is this correct?

 If so... It looks like I'm back to the WA6 Maxed w PDPSU. I wish I'd realized this before I changed by original order to the Maxed WA6 SE.

*Also... PLEASE NOTE... *the EML site seems to suggest with the design of the WA6 that not all the tubes mentioned as being compatible in these threads are really compatible - that the tubes may be stressed to early failure, or the caps may be stressed to early failure. Its beginning to look like major mods are required to the WA6 amps, to use the range of tubes suggested in these threads. 

 Here's the sections from the EML site:

 "Note 2) To prevent large charge current peaks, the first capacitor (C1) should NOT be larger than 33uF. If the input capacitor is too large, this will result in heavy AC charge current through this capacitor. This is not good for the rectifier tube, and also not for the capacitor lifetime. The AC capacitor current peaks may cause hum radiation into the preamplifier. With the given C-L-C values in table, the rectifier circuit will work best. For filtering, with oversized components, you will have best results by increasing the choke. Do not oversize capacitor C1, this may increase hum. You can choose the choke large as you want. This will have better results with high voltage rectification. 

 IMPORTANT: SEE RECOMMENDED CHOKE CHOKE CONNECTION SCHEMES 

 Note 3) Rectifier tubes may under no circumstance carry larger current peaks as what they are designed for. The current peaks are mainly a function of: power supply DC load, first capacitor and transformer copper resistance. The copper resistance for 5U4G and 5Z3 may not be smaller than 170 Ohms. This is very important to check, and too low copper resistance may damage the rectifier, no matter what brand or construction. Use a small series resistor if the copper resistance of the used transformer is too low. If you scroll further down this datasheet, there is a link to a table with historical information about this, for several rectifier types, not only 5U4G. 

 Note 4) *There is common misunderstanding that 5U4G and 5U4GB is the same.* However the 5U4GB is a version, with lower internal resistance and higher peak current is allowed. *The GB version is not the same tube as the G Version*. Replacing 5U4G with 5U4GB may result in higher rectified voltage, so should never be done. Replacing 5U4GB with 5U4G may result in lower rectified voltage, and may result in damage of the 5U4G rectifier."

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML5U4G.htm


----------



## wynn

any pic for it?


----------



## sclamb

Well, as I stated in the other thread, on my WA6 SE maxxed I am now six days into the new Sophia Princess 274B tube that I bought and it has not flashed or sparked once. That is probably around 15-20 switch-ons.

 Jack did respond when I asked about replacing under warranty the 274B tube that he supplied and he asked me to wait a few days as he is in discussions with Sophia Electric.

 Out of all the rectifier tubes I have tried (Sovtek 5AR4, Sylvania 5U4G, Mullard GZ30 and RCA 5U4G) the Sophia is by far and noticeably the best.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd get the Maxed WA6 with PDPSU - I think you're likely to believe the investment is worth it. 

 I would not get the standard WA6. 

 I would not get the DV336i.

 Or... I'd get the DV332, or DV337 - both of which are great values, and have great sound. I'd bet they sound nearly as good as the Maxed WA6, for far less money. 

 I found the DV332, sounds virtually as good as the SP Extreme - very close.

 And... I'm very sceptical that my WA6 SE Maxed, will sound much better than my DV332.

 But... if you're going to "spring" for a Woo amp... I believe I'd go with the WA6 Maxed - as the "sweet spot." And... it reportedly does not have any issues using the SE Sophia Princess 274B, which are reported with the WA6 SE. 

 In fact, I'm still debating whether to cancel my WA6 SE order and just get the WA6 Maxed with the SP 274B - for that reason alone. At least, until Jack reports he's resolved the issue with the WA6 SE and that tube._

 


 I won't get the DV336i. I wish they still offered the DV332 because I might consider that. I think that Jasmine or one of the vendors was going to get a few more units to sell in November. I doubt that I will wait that long. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know myself well enough to to know that, if I get the stock WA6, I will have this constant nagging feeling that I am missing something or "that would have sounded better if I had gotten those mods...". So I am leaning toward the WA6 maxed with SP274B.

 I am going to listen to a few solid-state amps, including the Headamp GS-1, at the Houston meet in two weeks, and compare them to Shellylh's Singlepower Extreme. That should give me a good proxy to decide between ss and tube. I think if I buy tube though, it will be the Woo even without hearing it. You guys are good sales people! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't mean to try and coerce you into emptying your wallet a little more, but going the whole nine with this amp will pay dividends that I'm sure you'll be very happy with. I know I am.

 Just make sure you budget for a good rectifier. A $150 Sophia Princess will take this amp, with all the mods, over the top._

 


 Thanks for your comments also. Yep, I would get the Sophia Princess, although I would burn-in and do most of my early listening with the stock rectifier or a cheaper backup tube.

 I see no reason to buy an amp twice, or to send it back for mods later, especially if I can afford the price to get it right at the beginning. Head-Fi... I hate you. What started out as a $250 used amp, and became a $500-$750 new amp, has now become a $1200 amp. This place is a disease that should come with a "hazardous" label. Oh wait, they did warn me about my wallet when I joined...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't heard the Pico.

 9 modified 6
 7.75 6
 7.5 3

 A 10 would be something I have not heard yet_

 

Where you you rank the Predator in that? I gave it a 7.0 which might be a little generous on your scale, but to me a, 

 10 is eargasm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 9 is backflips 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 8 is ooohhh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 7 is good/nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 6 is fair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 5 is poor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 4 is vomit


----------



## Orcin

I think this should be the official rating scale from now on. After a while, we could just post smileys and save ourselves a lot of typing.


----------



## jamato8

I am finding that again I really like the Philco 5U4GB. Many of these tubes will drop a different amount of voltage, which will also change the sound. I listened all day yesterday to the EML 274B and for the price wish I liked it better. I keep hoping it will take a magical turn for the better.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am finding that again I really like the Philco 5U4GB. Many of these tubes will drop a different amount of voltage, which will also change the sound. I listened all day yesterday to the EML 274B and for the price wish I liked it better. I keep hoping it will take a magical turn for the better._

 

If you could clear this up for us...

 EML is advising...

 "Note 4) There is common misunderstanding that 5U4G and 5U4GB is the same. However the 5U4GB is a version, with lower internal resistance and higher peak current is allowed. The GB version is not the same tube as the G Version. *Replacing 5U4G with 5U4GB may result in higher rectified voltage, so should never be done. Replacing 5U4GB with 5U4G may result in lower rectified voltage, and may result in damage of the 5U4G rectifier.*"


 Is you WA6 modified to allow the interchange of these two tube types without risk of damage from the voltage differences?

 Or... is the standard WA6 & WA6 SE (with, or without upgrades) designed to allow the interchange of these two tubes wihout risk of damage from the voltage differences?

 Just want to be sure none of us damage our amps or phones...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you could clear this up for us...

 EML is advising...

 "Note 4) There is common misunderstanding that 5U4G and 5U4GB is the same. However the 5U4GB is a version, with lower internal resistance and higher peak current is allowed. The GB version is not the same tube as the G Version. *Replacing 5U4G with 5U4GB may result in higher rectified voltage, so should never be done. Replacing 5U4GB with 5U4G may result in lower rectified voltage, and may result in damage of the 5U4G rectifier.*"


 Is you WA6 modified to allow the interchange of these two tube types without risk of damage from the voltage differences?

 Or... is the standard WA6 & WA6 SE (with, or without upgrades) designed to allow the interchange of these two tubes wihout risk of damage from the voltage differences?

 Just want to be sure none of us damage our amps or phones..._

 

There is tolerance in the design. The tubes in the 6 and SE version are run very easy so an increase in the voltage of 10 or 20 volts isn't going to hurt anything but may give a little better dynamics and power, but not a great deal. What we have is a 6DE7 run at 70 volts on the 1st section and 160 volts on the output section. Raising them 10 volts or so is way under their max and the bias is also fine. I would prefer to run my 6 at a higher voltage, which is why I have reduced the resistance in the circuit but still maintaining the right amount in front of the 1st section. What I would like to do is load the front section with a 150 henry inductor but that is another story.

 edit: I am using the HD650's right now, which I haven't used in some time. They respond very well to the 6 modified having more air and transparency then what I have experienced with them. I am back to using the Sophia Princess with them. Very enjoyable.


----------



## Torero

Takezo:
 Do you have more impresions about Sophia 274B Vs EML 274B? I'm very interested.

 PD: Only two weeks to have my modified W6.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Torero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Takezo:
 Do you have more impresions about Sophia 274B Vs EML 274B? I'm very interested.

 PD: Only two weeks to have my modified W6._

 

i haven't gone back to the eml for an extended listen but it's still amazing
 when i have listened thru it the several times since... the princess has really
 blossomed into an excellent rectifier... as transparent and focused as the eml,
 but whereas the eml has a bigger headroom and airy characteristic, the
 princess has a deeper, taut and amazingly well focused and stable mid bass
 and sub bass... the eml, with the limited listening i've had with it, is more
 extended at the top with well focused and stable mids/highs with better
 separation of notes... i realize others have both and have had different
 experiences with them but perhaps the source and headphones are playing
 a big part in these discrepancies... 

 at this point i'd have to say both are in the same league, just different
 sound characteristics... you may prefer one over the other based on the type
 of music you listen to... my impressions are based on classical, small ensemble
 acoustic jazz and mostly acoustical rock/pop...


----------



## jamato8

From you description mine must be defective. I have no doubt on what you are hearing. Mine is not extended on top and has a smaller soundstage. I wonder why? I know they go to great lengths on quality control and each tube is thoroughly tested and they are numbered. I keep trying though, I mean for over 200 dollars I would like it to Really shine.


----------



## Ragonix

Maybe the EML doesn't sound as good in Super E configuration.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ragonix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe the EML doesn't sound as good in Super E configuration._

 

Maybe, but the super E lowers the ESR to where I can't measure it and the inductance is cancelled. Super E makes for a very fine power supply but who knows. :^)


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From you description mine must be defective. I have no doubt on what you are hearing. Mine is not extended on top and has a smaller soundstage. I wonder why? I know they go to great lengths on quality control and each tube is thoroughly tested and they are numbered. I keep trying though, I mean for over 200 dollars I would like it to Really shine._

 

it may be a quality control issue... or just system dependent discrepancy...
 it is odd cause in my set up the eml is giving me the biggest soundstage and
 airy feel on the top of any of my tubes or amps... the princess has a focused
 top too but it's less 3D nor airy as the eml... i've used the senns, akg701,
 denon d5000 and gs1000 on it and the SQ is consistent.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it may be a quality control issue... or just system dependent discrepancy...
 it is odd cause in my set up the eml is giving me the biggest soundstage and
 airy feel on the top of any of my tubes or amps... the princess has a focused
 top too but it's less 3D nor airy as the eml... i've used the senns, akg701,
 denon d5000 and gs1000 on it and the SQ is consistent._

 

I guess so. I got a dud as I do not doubt what you are hearing and I know that mine does not have those qualities. For the cost I am am not happy.


----------



## takezo

i did get mine from jacmusic in germany. maybe their batch was different from
 the batch you got yours from... just a guess though.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe, but the super E lowers the ESR to where I can't measure it and the inductance is cancelled. Super E makes for a very fine power supply but who knows. :^)_

 

John, on a serious note - why don't you have me or Takezo listen to your EML tube and see if the problem is only with your amp? $200 is a lot to lose on a tube you don't like.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_John, on a serious note - why don't you have me or Takezo listen to your EML tube and see if the problem is only with your amp? $200 is a lot to lose on a tube you don't like._

 

Yeah, maybe I will. It would be good to know. Everything else sounds great from the Princess to my other rectifiers.


----------



## Gradofan2

Does anyone know... if... the Sophia Princess 274B has a high failure rate - say, higher than 5% in a year?

 Sophia reports the tubes are identical - their tubes with the 30 day warranty vs the 1 yr warranty.

 So... the only reason to get the longer warranty is if they have a high failure rate? I've asked them, but haven't got a response yet - plus - I'd like to get another perspective.


----------



## Orcin

I will be getting an opportunity to audition a stock WA6 and maxed WA6SE at the upcoming Houston meet. I contacted Jack with questions about the amps as part of my research into buying one. To my surprise, he offered to send both amps for us to demo at our meet.

 I am really thrilled with this, and it is pretty well assured that I will buy one or the other. If I really like the sound of the maxed amp enough to spend the extra money (I know what you guys think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ), I still might order the maxed WA6 instead of the SE for the smaller footprint and to save some cash. I haven't really decided on that yet, but I am sure looking at the SE on my desk won't make it easier.

 What a great company Woo Audio is! I just wanted to give them some good publicity here. I will have a hard time sending both of these amps back, so count on me posting here again in a couple of weeks to say which one I kept.


----------



## jamato8

I would have him send the 6 with the pseudo dual supply. The 6 without it does not compare and it is such an easy upgrade it should be standard. You still get a small footprint and exceptional sound.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know... if... the Sophia Princess 274B has a high failure rate - say, higher than 5% in a year?

 Sophia reports the tubes are identical - their tubes with the 30 day warranty vs the 1 yr warranty.

 So... the only reason to get the longer warranty is if they have a high failure rate? I've asked them, but haven't got a response yet - plus - I'd like to get another perspective._

 


 Sophia Electric says... their experience has been <1% failure rate.

 So... I would guess that it dosen't pay to pay the price premium for the 1 yr warranty tubes.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would have him send the 6 with the pseudo dual supply. The 6 without it does not compare and it is such an easy upgrade it should be standard. You still get a small footprint and exceptional sound._

 

I am thinking that Jack wants the customers to hear the amp as he sells it, and is hoping that people who want a dual power supply will opt for the SE. Plus Jack is being so nice to me already that I hate to impose.

 I can always send the amp back to Jack later to have the upgrades done, should I choose it.


----------



## jamato8

I understand and already figured since he was offering that it might feel awkward but to be honest there is a big difference so bear that in mind. I also think that the difference would be small with an upgraded 6 when compared to the SE. It would be a slightly different flavor, if you will. :^)


----------



## jamato8

I have polished pins for years. I mean they are extremely important. After all they are either providing a good contact of low resistance, or they are not. I have cleaned the pins of the EML with alcohol in the past. They are very nice to begin with. They are much nicer than any pins I have seen. Shiny, plated well and no signs of flux and clean solder. But for fun, I decided to use a pencil eraser, which works great. It has a low abrasive quality. It is very available. They are cheap. 

 So I erasered the pins. Noticeable difference. Surprised me, it did. So now I hear more detail, etc, etc, etc. I shall see. I often use an eraser on 9 pin tubes. Does a fine job. Looks like it may have again.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be getting an opportunity to audition a stock WA6 and maxed WA6SE at the upcoming Houston meet. I contacted Jack with questions about the amps as part of my research into buying one. To my surprise, he offered to send both amps for us to demo at our meet.

 I am really thrilled with this, and it is pretty well assured that I will buy one or the other. If I really like the sound of the maxed amp enough to spend the extra money (I know what you guys think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ), I still might order the maxed WA6 instead of the SE for the smaller footprint and to save some cash. I haven't really decided on that yet, but I am sure looking at the SE on my desk won't make it easier.

 What a great company Woo Audio is! I just wanted to give them some good publicity here. I will have a hard time sending both of these amps back, so count on me posting here again in a couple of weeks to say which one I kept. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Orcin - Jack Wu has asked me to ship the Woo GES prototype to you for the Houston meet too. I need the address from you please. If you are the wrong guy for this, let me know.

 The sound of the prototype was similar to my new GES maxed at first, except for a slight improvement in transparency and micro-detail right out of the box with the maxed. Once I got past 100 hours on the maxed it is clear that it is opening up more with a little better Micro-detail and spaciousness than it had out of the box. I compared the GES prototype to Sherwood's SRM-T1 and they sounded almost the same. The maxed is only 150 hours into a 500 hour burn-in and is already better than those.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have polished pins for years. I mean they are extremely important. After all they are either providing a good contact of low resistance, or they are not. I have cleaned the pins of the EML with alcohol in the past. They are very nice to begin with. They are much nicer than any pins I have seen. Shiny, plated well and no signs of flux and clean solder. But for fun, I decided to use a pencil eraser, which works great. It has a low abrasive quality. It is very available. They are cheap. 

 So I erasered the pins. Noticeable difference. Surprised me, it did. So now I hear more detail, etc, etc, etc. I shall see. I often use an eraser on 9 pin tubes. Does a fine job. Looks like it may have again._

 


 An excellent and completely effective tip Jamato....

 An old tip from the electronics industry (Mil Spec PC's) that I used to work in as a bench tech back in the early 80's. We had huge stocks of the plain old school issue pink erasers to freshen up all the module contacts after cleaning the oxidized pins with an industrial chemical solvent. These were gold plated contacts of substantial heft...the difference between before and after is visibly and electrically the same as a brand new example. 

 I spent 3 days recently cleaning, treating the pins on all my tubes (went through half of a fairly big eraser during that tedious and boring job) but the outcome once treated with Caig pro gold as a final step made a huge difference as Jamato notes. I agree entirely it's worth the effort.

 Absolutely a great tweak but boy is it time consuming if you have tons of tubes to treat.....new or NOS do it to all of them.

 Peete.


----------



## takezo

john, you should try rolling the output tubes as well with the eml
 and the princess... i've tried the fat bottle 6ew7 with those two and
 i'd have to say it's a big disappointment... most of the focus and
 vibrancy is lost with the fat bottle output... the slim bottle 6de7 is
 so much more better sounding with the 274b...although some sense
 of deeper soundstage is attained with the fatbottle 6ew7 it's not
 worth losing the focus/control and the vibrancy of the 274b...

 on the same note, the 274b are so high in resolution and everything
 else, rolling the output tubes is much more noticeable even
 between the various 6de7...


----------



## jamato8

I have a number of different 6ED7's and some slim bottle 6EW7's. I use the RCA 6DE7's most of the time for their musicality. I have one set of some old Marconi tubes that are pure heaven but I don't use them very much as I have never found any more of this run.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

What about using Silclear ointment on the pins to improve the contact points?


----------



## Gradofan2

Wouldn't a good metal polish be much faster and more effective?

 Never Dull Chrome Polish Cotton Wadding (or similar) - is very effective to clean metal surfaces to a bright shire very quickly

T.A.S. Auto Parts: Products for your Honda Accord

NEVR-DULL Metal Polish

Amazon.com: Basch George #L 5OZ Nevr-Dull Polish: Sports & Outdoors

 Flitz Metal Polish (or similar) - is also very effective to clean metal surfaces to a bright shine very quickly

Flitz Metal, Plastic & Fiberglass Polish & Paint Restorer - Paste

 And... I'll bet "TarnX" (a chemical metal cleaner) would work very well also.

 You can get these a any Auto Zone, or similar auto supply store, or WalMart.

 Will save you a lot of time.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well I'm sure one of those would work GF2...the abrasives in some of those may lead to problems, whereas the pink eraser leaves no residue at all and is a very mild abrasive. I've heard that using flitz on all your mains cables lugs ( the L+N + Gnd pin) is a good tweak. I've never heard of it being used on tube pins before...doesn't mean it shouldn't be effective.

 Do you have any of those products GF2 ? Maybe you can try some out and report back. The one advantage to using the eraser is effectiveness, cost and convenience. It's been an established tweak for many many years....maybe that's the reason it's still used ? Can't be beat citing the three attributes I just spoke of. Clean up on the pins using the eraser is nonexistent. A good trait of the process.

 Silclear is just as good if not better than Caig pro gold I would imagine. I haven't tried Silclear yet but I would like to once I use up my stock of Pro Gold. Maybe I'll get some for Christmas this year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Orcin - Jack Wu has asked me to ship the Woo GES prototype to you for the Houston meet too. I need the address from you please. If you are the wrong guy for this, let me know._

 


 Pabbi1 was nice enough to volunteer for this duty. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I sent you a PM with his address.


----------



## jamato8

Used ALL of those over the years. Silclear high temp Oxy something, ProGold you name it. The silclear no matter what they say will dull the sound after a while. the others dry out and leave residue. No thanks. Tried them all. The good ole low abrasive eraser will do for me. Fast and effective. I have also used a Dremel with a fine wire wheel and it works great but mine are in storage. 

 The dipping solution? It can pit the surface. There have been big discussions on all these over the years. My experience has taught me, very mild abrasive and maybe a bit of alcohol, Jack or Sour mash works fine. :^)


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Used ALL of those over the years. Silclear high temp Oxy something, ProGold you name it. The silclear no matter what they say will dull the sound after a while. the others dry out and leave residue. No thanks. Tried them all. The good ole low abrasive eraser will do for me. Fast and effective. I have also used a Dremel with a fine wire wheel and it works great but mine are in storage. 

 The dipping solution? It can pit the surface. There have been big discussions on all these over the years. My experience has taught me, very mild abrasive and maybe a bit of alcohol, Jack or Sour mash works fine. :^)_

 

Interesting ....thanks for that additional insight Jamato. 

 The dremel option is a cool alternative I would never have thought of. With pro gold I treat the pins and let them sit for a bit, then wipe it off...no residue left behind. Probably a useless step but I agree about the eraser.....can't be beat doing the job extremely well and leaving no footprint or damage behind.

 Can you drink the Jack after using it as deoxit ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Peete.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting .... 

 Can you drink the Jack after using it as deoxit ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Peete._

 

Quicker than you can flip a switch. lol

 Ahhh, I just put in the Marconis. They really look just like RCA's and most likely are but they are very early ones. So real. .. .


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I'm sure one of those would work GF2...the abrasives in some of those may lead to problems, whereas the pink eraser leaves no residue at all and is a very mild abrasive. I've heard that using flitz on all your mains cables lugs ( the L+N + Gnd pin) is a good tweak. I've never heard of it being used on tube pins before...doesn't mean it shouldn't be effective.

 Do you have any of those products GF2 ? Maybe you can try some out and report back. The one advantage to using the eraser is effectiveness, cost and convenience. It's been an established tweak for many many years....maybe that's the reason it's still used ? Can't be beat citing the three attributes I just spoke of. Clean up on the pins using the eraser is nonexistent. A good trait of the process.

 Silclear is just as good if not better than Caig pro gold I would imagine. I haven't tried Silclear yet but I would like to once I use up my stock of Pro Gold. Maybe I'll get some for Christmas this year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

No... I've never tried them on tube pins.

 I have used the Never Dull Cotton Wadding to clean chrome and aluminum wheels - it works like magic - literally!

 I've also used Flitz Metal Polish - it also works like magic, but is not quite as easy to apply as Never Dull. 

 Both of these must be wiped off, and you might want to follow them with alcohol cleaning, or WD40, or ProGold cleaner to make sure all the residue is removed.

 If a pencil eraser works well - that's fine too. From what I read, I understood that it was a pretty slow, tedious process - not likely as quick as these other techniques. I'm inclined to use a method that's quick and easy, over one that may be a bit tedious. 

 And... I will likley use Never Dull or Flitz on my tubes, just to see how well it works.

 I'll also do one with a pencial eraser to compare the time, effort and effectiveness.

 And... let you know.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Man Jamato, your tube collection is impressive......something to aspire to (and I'm working on it ) much to the wife's chagrin....what more tubes...how many do you need ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No... I've never tried them on tube pins.

 I have used both the Never Dull Cotton Wadding to clean chrome and aluminum wheels - it works like magic - literally!

 I've also used Flitz Metal Polish - it also works like magic, but is not quite as easy to apply as Never Dull. 

 Both of these must be wiped off, and you might want to follow them with alcohol cleaning, or WD40, or ProGold cleaner to make sure all the residue is removed.

 If a pencil eraser works well - that's fine too. From what I read, I understood that it was a pretty slow process - not likely as quick as these other techniques. I'm inclined to use a method that's quick and easy, over one that may be a bit tedious. 

 And... I will likley use Never Dull or Flitz on my tubes, just to see how well it works.

 I'll also do one with a pencial eraser to compare the time, effort and effectiveness.

 And... let you know._

 

Thanks GF2 !!!

 Peete.


----------



## jamato8

Well after cleaning both the Sophia and the EML, I still find the Sophia to be more "alive" and open.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well after cleaning both the Sophia and the EML, I still find the Sophia to be more "alive" and open._

 

God damn boyz! takezo, I need your opinions!
 I've been waiting for too long, and now I gotta have one of these tubes. Sophia or EML? More opinions, pretty please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm pretty trigger happy with the sophia, but try to convince me around


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have used the Never Dull Cotton Wadding to clean chrome and aluminum wheels - it works like magic - literally!
_

 

It's especially nice if you desire blue crap all over your hands. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It does work great on wheels though, for sure.


----------



## jamato8

We used to use Never Dull in the US Navy for all of the bright work, well I didn't but the deck guys did, but then it was determined to be a fire problem. So they got the liquid, what a mess and so the Never Dull went into hiding because it was so much easier, faster and more efficient to use.

 On the flammable part, we were on one of the last wood ships in the navy, a mine sweeper. All wood, stainless and brass. We wouldn't have lasted more than about 5 seconds in a mine field but what the heck. Two tours of duty in Vietnam (what a horrible and uncalled for war but then aren't they all).


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_God damn boyz! takezo, I need your opinions!
 I've been waiting for too long, and now I gotta have one of these tubes. Sophia or EML? More opinions, pretty please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm pretty trigger happy with the sophia, but try to convince me around 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

the princess is a very fine rectifier... it's neck and neck in the bass department
 with the gz34 large brown base... the princess has a larger soundstage than
 the brownbase and better focus at top... by focus i mean articulation, transparency
 and no digital artifice... the large brown base wins out in the mids though...
 pure liquid magic... the princess's mids are forward but transparent and
 articulate...

 the eml is starting to loosen up... the bass is almost in the same league as
 the large brown base gz34 and the princess... taut, springy and transparent...
 the other two has a more fearsome punch to it than the eml... yet, perhaps.
 the mids are not as liquid as the large brown base but very articulate and
 the highs are the best of all my rectifiers... i'm hearing things i don't hear
 with the others... music that is... very focused as well.

 separation of notes/instruments and soundstage are much better with the 
 274b rects vs the gz family of rects. the princess and eml are both excellent
 and comparable in this regard... the closest any other tube combination gets
 to the 274b and 6de7 is the 5r4gy brimar with fat bottle 6ew7... but not as
 articulate and focused.

 if i were you, i'd get both and sell the lesser of the two in your ears... both
 needs burn in to get to their sound characteristics... i prefer using them with
 the 6de7 output tubes... the fat bottle 6ew7 gives deeper sense of soundstage 
 at the cost of focus and control at the top and bottom...


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(what a horrible and uncalled for war but then aren't they all)._

 

x2


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the princess is a very fine rectifier... it's neck and neck in the bass department
 with the gz34 large brown base... the princess has a larger soundstage than
 the brownbase and better focus at top... by focus i mean articulation, transparency
 and no digital artifice... the large brown base wins out in the mids though...
 pure liquid magic... the princess's mids are forward but transparent and
 articulate...

 the eml is starting to loosen up... the bass is almost in the same league as
 the large brown base gz34 and the princess... taut, springy and transparent...
 the other two has a more fearsome punch to it than the eml... yet, perhaps.
 the mids are not as liquid as the large brown base but very articulate and
 the highs are the best of all my rectifiers... i'm hearing things i don't hear
 with the others... music that is... very focused as well.

 if i were you, i'd get both and sell the lesser of the two in your ears... both
 needs burn in to get to their sound characteristics... i prefer using them with
 the 6de7 output tubes... the fat bottle 6ew7 gives deeper sense of soundstage 
 at the cost of focus and control at the top and bottom..._

 



 I need to send my EML to you. I hear a much better top end on the Princess, with a more articulate range in general. A more you are there live feeling.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2_

 

Yes, I am sorry I went. 

 Bob, do you have the EML and the Sophia?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I need to send my EML to you. I hear a much better top end on the Princess, with a more articulate range in general. A more you are there live feeling._

 

do you mean the eml has a compressed characteristics on top? very surprising...
 it may be the tube... or the headphones we're using. i'm basing my impressions
 with a diy recabled 650 senn, akg701, denon d5000 and gs1000. my source is
 the channel island vda2/vac1 and a yamaha cd transport.


----------



## jamato8

Yes, the tube, the EML is compressed. I am using the Ultrasone Ed. 9 and they are well extended.


----------



## takezo

alright, understood. i'll post my impressions of our emls here in this
 tread. looking forward to it...


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the closest any other tube combination gets
 to the 274b and 6de7 is the 5r4gy brimar with fat bottle 6ew7... but not as
 articulate and focused.

 if i were you, i'd get both and sell the lesser of the two in your ears... both
 needs burn in to get to their sound characteristics... i prefer using them with
 the 6de7 output tubes... the fat bottle 6ew7 gives deeper sense of soundstage at the cost of focus and control at the top and bottom..._

 


 How does the fat bottle 6ew7 sound with the 5ar4 rectifiers? What is it about the 5r4gy that makes it synergize well with the 6ew7's?

 Edit:
 Do either of these offerings from Tube World seem appealing?

 2 pairs $21/pair) 6EW7 RCA NOS skinny bottle original boxes (recommended)
 2) 6EW7 Sylvania NOS original boxes, fat bottle $8 (close substituted is 6DE7)

 On the fat bottles, it doesn't appear that they are a pair... does that matter with the WA6?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does the fat bottle 6ew7 sound with the 5ar4 rectifiers? What is it about the 5r4gy that makes it synergize well with the 6ew7's?

 Edit:
 Do either of these offerings from Tube World seem appealing?

 2 pairs $21/pair) 6EW7 RCA NOS skinny bottle original boxes (recommended)
 2) 6EW7 Sylvania NOS original boxes, fat bottle $8 (close substituted is 6DE7)

 On the fat bottles, it doesn't appear that they are a pair... does that matter with the WA6?_

 

5ar4 with 6ew7 fatbottle is very fine... improves the soundstage and detail
 in the mids of the standard 5ar4... the brown fat base is good with both
 the 6de7 and the fatbottle 6ew7, except in the latter the bass gets slightly
 less exciting than when using the 6de7.

 i don't know what it is that makes the 5r4gy synergize well with the fat bottle
 6ew7... both present large soundstages so one would think it wouldn't be
 ideal, but it just sounds great... the bass is thunderous yet bouncy and taut
 and the mids just sound natural and sweet... there's an effortlessness in the
 sound from top to bottom... though it lacks the power and graceful presentation
 of the 274b...

 tubeworld is very reliable and they even take back bad testing tubes... but
 they place premium prices on their items... 

 and no, the output tubes for the wa6, wa6 SE and wa5 do not have to be
 "matched"... 

 hope some of this helps.


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hope some of this helps._

 

It ALL helps a lot, thanks! You and John are great sources of Woo 6 tube info, both here and in the Woo 6 tube rolling thread.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I am sorry I went. 

 Bob, do you have the EML and the Sophia?_

 

Still just the Sophia, John. I pretty much dismissed the EML after your findings, although it sounds like it could be making a comeback for you.

 My feeling is that the Sophia is the rectifier for me, up until the day that it proves itself unreliable in my rig. As you know all too well, the sound is addicting.

 Nonetheless, I'm curious why you're not hearing what others have with the EML. I'll be waiting to see what Takezo hears regarding your tube. Sounds like it could be not operating to spec.


----------



## jamato8

Well it went off to him today so I look forward to the comparison.


----------



## takezo

ok, i'll ask my wife to keep an eye out for the package. 

 btw, john, how many hrs. do you suppose you have on the eml?
 i've got approx. 12hrs on it but will run it exclusively the next
 couple of days to have it up to at least 50hrs. by the weekend.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, i'll ask my wife to keep an eye out for the package. 

 btw, john, how many hrs. do you suppose you have on the eml?
 i've got approx. 12hrs on it but will run it exclusively the next
 couple of days to have it up to at least 50hrs. by the weekend._

 

I have maybe 150 hours. Plenty of hours for it to be right.


----------



## takezo

john, did your eml ever sound right? i mean at the beginning? like
 at hour 1 to 10? or it just hasn't come out of its shell, ever?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_john, did your eml ever sound right? i mean at the beginning? like
 at hour 1 to 10? or it just hasn't come out of its shell, ever?_

 

It, to me, has never sounded like the Sophia in sound quality. Even if it was different, that is fine but the sound quality isn't there.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well it went off to him today so I look forward to the comparison._

 

I'm glad you took my advice. It makes sense to send it to him to compare to his own EML tube.


----------



## jamato8

Well it should be interesting. Lets say it isn't as good. How do I exchange it? The seller stated that the EML is better than the Sophia, but if this particular tube suffers in the sound department it will be a challenge. Well this is the cart before the horse. Maybe my Sophia is extras special! :^)


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the princess is a very fine rectifier... it's neck and neck in the bass department
 with the gz34 large brown base... the princess has a larger soundstage than
 the brownbase and better focus at top... by focus i mean articulation, transparency
 and no digital artifice... the large brown base wins out in the mids though...
 pure liquid magic... the princess's mids are forward but transparent and
 articulate...

 the eml is starting to loosen up... the bass is almost in the same league as
 the large brown base gz34 and the princess... taut, springy and transparent...
 the other two has a more fearsome punch to it than the eml... yet, perhaps.
 the mids are not as liquid as the large brown base but very articulate and
 the highs are the best of all my rectifiers... i'm hearing things i don't hear
 with the others... music that is... very focused as well.

 separation of notes/instruments and soundstage are much better with the 
 274b rects vs the gz family of rects. the princess and eml are both excellent
 and comparable in this regard... the closest any other tube combination gets
 to the 274b and 6de7 is the 5r4gy brimar with fat bottle 6ew7... but not as
 articulate and focused.

 if i were you, i'd get both and sell the lesser of the two in your ears... both
 needs burn in to get to their sound characteristics... i prefer using them with
 the 6de7 output tubes... the fat bottle 6ew7 gives deeper sense of soundstage 
 at the cost of focus and control at the top and bottom..._

 


 My conclusion from this excellent description is that the combination of 50's-60's NOS RCA 6de7's with the Sophia Princess would be ideal for rock music, while the 5r4gy with 6ew7 fat bottles would be a nice alternate set for jazz or any music where you wanted a more spacious, airy feeling.

 I hope this is correct, because that's what I am working toward. I am actually getting a 1965 RCA 5r4gyb brown base because it is easier to find than the Brimar 5r4gy, hopefully it is close as takezo has mentioned elsewhere.


----------



## takezo

pretty much nailed it... but i'd consider getting more than one 5r4gyb... i have
 4 and one of them sound worse than the other 3... thin sounding and not lively,
 though it tests well on a tv7d/u... i think most of the -gyb were made in the
 late 70's and 80's, when quality control was not the same as in the 40's to 50's.

 the metal base gz34 is just as lively, energetic and lively for rock and pop...
 with lesser inner resolution, separation of notes and smaller soundstage than
 the princess and eml 274b. for classical and jazz, the gz30 and 6ew7 is my
 favorite... transparent, great tight bass, smooth mids and soaring highs...
 and only about $20+... the mullard gz30 are best... stay away from chinese
 version as they are grainy in the mids... unless that's what is required.


----------



## sclamb

Going to give this a try tonight although it seems to be making a hum!!


----------



## takezo

sometimes a NOS tube will make sounds, which should go away with
 some burn-in... probably no more than 10 hrs... the princess
 is the only rectifier where i've experienced a long burn-in requirement
 for the sq to settle at a sweet spot...


----------



## sclamb

I guess I am just wary of the tube making a humming sound after the issues with the 274B sparking etc. I just don't want to ruin the amp itself. Do NOS tubes make a humming sound that disappears with use? Are the amp internals affected? This tube looks like it has never been used.


----------



## takezo

got home to see john's package has arrived. i'll give a full report
 later tonite. want to give each rectifier at least an hour of warm-up
 before critical listening...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess I am just wary of the tube making a humming sound after the issues with the 274B sparking etc. I just don't want to ruin the amp itself. Do NOS tubes make a humming sound that disappears with use? Are the amp internals affected? This tube looks like it has never been used._

 

the gz30 is an indirect heater, meaning a slower start up... it has a much larger
 first cap requirement at 50 uF compared to the 4uF of the 274b.

 i've only experienced one tube that hummed but it went away within minutes
 and haven't heard it thru that particular tube since... if yours hum constantly
 and for over a long period, likes days, then it may be a dud... test it to make
 sure there isn't anything else wrong with it. you don't want to harm a $1k amp
 by using a faulty tube... a tube tester is highly recommended.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got home to see john's package has arrived. i'll give a full report
 later tonite. want to give each rectifier at least an hour of warm-up
 before critical listening..._

 

Waiting with bated breath....


----------



## takezo

received john's EML 274b today and after having listened thru it for the past 3 hrs. i can say with
 some certainty that there is a very small difference in tone... it's not night and day difference,
 but john's EML is softer, almost bloated, and opaque/veiled in the highs... an example is from
 a song by mika nakashima in which there is a soft passage where the high hat is brush-stroked
 caressingly and gives off a cascade-like shimmer... in john's EML the shimmer is less audible
 and short-lived... over-powered by the vocals. it's more forward, easily audible and has a longer 
 decay on my EML... i gave each rectifier approx. 1 hr. of warm up and didn't touch the volume 
 knob when turning off and on between the switching of tubes. i think i'm also hearing more bass 
 on john's EML compared to mine... it's slightly bloated and i think it's what may be veiling the highs... 
 this may be a bad analogy but mine sounds like listening thru the senn 600 and john's thru the 650.
 (this is in regards to the bass) the soundstage width and depth were almost indistinguishable
 from one another. (going off into a tangent, i have several metal base gz34 and they all exhibit this
 similar level of disparity in the tones being produced.) my findings may give off the impression
 that his is not fully burned in, whereas mine is... it's the opposite... john's EML is at 150+ hrs. 
 and mine at 30+ hrs...

 i used the senn 600, denon d5000, and gs1000 for this comparison. the difference was
 salient on all these headphones. when i used the gs1000 both his and mine sounded outstanding...
 the difference in the highs were most easily noticeable thru the d5000 and gs1000. 

 i can't explain the discrepancy john has experienced with his EML when he says it sounds
 mediocre and not much better than his other more common rectifiers... what i've found by 
 comparing the two same brand rectifiers is that there is a minute difference and that
 quality control can't guarantee identical sound... but then i don't have john's highly modified wa6
 nor a high-end source either... it's highly likely the source and headphone has a big influence
 on how the rectifiers perform in the wa6 w/ pdps. on top of which, i only have 80+ hrs. on the 
 sophia princess and it may have a big surprise in store for me at hr. 150+. but then again,
 i'm certain my EML performs above and beyond my other common recitifiers too.

 i tested john's EML on my tv7d/u and it's very strong at 61/54... 
 mine tested at 60/55.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_received john's EML 274b today and after having listened thru it for the past 3 hrs. i can say with
 some certainty that there is a very small difference in tone... it's not night and day difference,
 but john's EML is softer, almost bloated, and opaque/veiled in the highs... an example is from
 a song by mika nakashima in which there is a soft passage where the high hat is brush-stroked
 caressingly and gives off a cascade-like shimmer... in john's EML the shimmer is less audible
 and short-lived... over-powered by the vocals. it's more forward, easily audible and has a longer 
 decay on my EML... i gave each rectifier approx. 1 hr. of warm up and didn't touch the volume 
 knob when turning off and on between the switching of tubes. i think i'm also hearing more bass 
 on john's EML compared to mine... it's slightly bloated and i think it's what may be veiling the highs... 
 this may be a bad analogy but mine sounds like listening thru the senn 600 and john's thru the 650.
 (this is in regards to the bass) the soundstage width and depth were almost indistinguishable
 from one another. (going off into a tangent, i have several metal base gz34 and they all exhibit this
 similar level of disparity in the tones being produced.) my findings may give off the impression
 that his is not fully burned in, whereas mine is... it's the opposite... john's EML is at 150+ hrs. 
 and mine at 30+ hrs...

 i used the senn 600, denon d5000, and gs1000 for this comparison. the difference was
 salient on all these headphones. when i used the gs1000 both his and mine sounded outstanding...
 the difference in the highs were most easily noticeable thru the d5000 and gs1000. 

 i can't explain the discrepancy john has experienced with his EML when he says it sounds
 mediocre and not much better than his other more common rectifiers... what i've found by 
 comparing the two same brand rectifiers is that there is a minute difference and that
 quality control can't guarantee identical sound... but then i don't have john's highly modified wa6
 nor a high-end source either... it's highly likely the source and headphone has a big influence
 on how the rectifiers perform in the wa6 w/ pdps. on top of which, i only have 80+ hrs. on the 
 sophia princess and it may have a big surprise in store for me at hr. 150+. but then again,
 i'm certain my EML performs above and beyond my other common recitifiers too.

 i tested john's EML on my tv7d/u and it's very strong at 61/54... 
 mine tested at 60/55._

 

The big question is this - is his EML good enough to keep you happy like yours has? Or another way to put it - If you had to trade his tube for yours, would you be unhappy? I actually think it might be a good idea to let Jamato8 try both EML tubes in his rig too.

 In my case, I agree about headphones impacting how a tube performs, in that I loved the GZ34 with RS-1 and it was okay with HD600, but I hated it with the Edition 9 due to bloated flabby poorly controlled bass and a lack of shimmer in the highs. While the Sylvania 5U4G was good with Edition 9 it wasn't optimal with the RS-1. The Sophia was also bloated and lacked shimmer in the first 12 hours or so, but by 80 hours it was superior to every tube I have tried and good with everything.

 And it's very possible his amp mods and current configuration could affect it even more. But, your description still doesn't sound like his EML is performing as it should.


----------



## takezo

here's another update to john's EML compared to mine:

 i tried the senn 650 last nite and it was difficult to distinguish
 the difference... both EML sounded virtually identical... the
 shimmering high were muddied on my EML as well now... hmm...
 earlier, the senn 600 was the least responsive to the difference
 too... the difference was more noticeable with the akg701 as
 well as the d5000 and gs1000 (all of which are known for 
 extended highs)

 i'm beginning to think it's headphone and source dependent... 
 as well as it being highly subjective... some of us are more geared
 to the highs and others to the bass... to me the difference is 
 minute even when salient on specific headphones... soundstage
 and macro resolution wise, it's virtually identical... it's only the 
 micro resolution that seems slightly different using certain headphones...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The big question is this - is his EML good enough to keep you happy like yours has? Or another way to put it - If you had to trade his tube for yours, would you be unhappy? ..._

 

earlier last nite, i would've said no... by late last nite, i would have to had said
 maybe... with the 650 both sound identical... with the denon d5000 and grado
 gs1000 my EML seems more active at the highs... but that's only because
 i've compared the two... if i only had john's EML to use, i would've felt it was
 outstanding on its own thru the latter two headphones... on par with the 
 princess with differing sound characteristics... my conclusion is that john's
 EML is not a dud... just slightly different in tone.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Poor John. What's he supposed to do now? FS forums I suppose.


----------



## takezo

i think john has very sensitive and discriminating ears... and the EML just
 isn't his cup of tea...

 * one valuable thing i got from this is that i shouldn't be making grand
 and sweeping statements in regards to the SQ that i get from specific tubes...
 it may sound different from tube to tube and gear to gear... not to mention
 ear to ear...


----------



## jamato8

Takezo thank you for comparing the tubes. If you want to keep it longer that is fine but then maybe that wouldn't serve any further purpose. 

 The big difference to my ear is that the EML is more stilted. It has less air and it runs over the fine detail, which in turn hides the transparency and open feeling to the music. The Sophia, for my ear, does not do this and opens up the sound and the fine reverb. For me the bass also lacks detail that is heard with my better rectifiers. I know of some power tubes that can take a few hundred hours to run in, like the older KT90. I got the original KT90 back in the 1990's and it was a superb tube that lasted a long time but also took longer than normal, for a tube, to come into great sound. So . . . . play on.


----------



## takezo

thanks for allowing me to compare our EMLs... i don't think it would
 serve any purpose by playing it further unless it wasn't run in but
 that's not the case here...

 at this point even your EML sounds very fine to me using certain
 headphones... very transparent and huge soundstage... the bottom
 is slightly bloated but better than most others... this may be what's
 getting in the way on the top... i tried using my herbie dampers
 in the mid and bottom of your EML and it actually helped damper
 the bloating... better balance was achieved. placing the damper
 on top didn't do anything... yes, dampers really work for some
 tubes...

 i think, and i'm hoping, i need to run-in the princess even more... it's
 so much better than the first 50+ hrs... the overweight ballerina
 has now shed her excess baggage and i'm hoping she'll prance
 her way to the top, as in your case.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks for allowing me to compare our EMLs... i don't think it would
 serve any purpose by playing it further unless it wasn't run in but
 that's not the case here...

 at this point even your EML sounds very fine to me using certain
 headphones... very transparent and huge soundstage... the bottom
 is slightly bloated but better than most others... this may be what's
 getting in the way on the top... i tried using my herbie dampers
 in the mid and bottom of your EML and it actually helped damper
 the bloating... better balance was achieved. placing the damper
 on top didn't do anything... yes, dampers really work for some
 tubes...

 i think, and i'm hoping, i need to run-in the princess even more... it's
 so much better than the first 50+ hrs... the overweight ballerina
 has now shed her excess baggage and i'm hoping she'll prance
 her way to the top, as in your case._

 

I just hope the Princess has a long life. With a good vacuum and the right materials it should. I am tempted to buy another one just to have it on hand. I mean people will pay 400 for a GZ34 metal base, which is sad because there are many of these in existence but there are a couple of companies hoarding them, one in Europe that has boxes of them and then inflates the price but anyway, the the current draw isn't too much, as in this case, the Sophia perforated plate does a better job. Now if it can live for a lifetime as the metal base can and do.


----------



## takezo

i think you should... get another one, that is... no telling when the
 prices will increase, as it seems everything else has recently...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It would seem my tendency towards overt procrastination has served me well as this Rectifier Rhubarb plays out......at the same time the observations noted thus far (thanks to Jamato and takezo, thanks both of you) have allowed me to nudge slightly closer to the SEP side of the fence for the MC-7R preamp ....

 The minutae you guys provide cannot be had anywhere else......praise the audio gods 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks...now to scrounge up a couple of C-notes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Going to give this a try tonight although it seems to be making a hum!!




_

 

Got another tube that doesn't hum. The Mullard GZ30 with the GE 6EW7s is making a very nice sound. Not quite as airy as the 274B but the bass is deeper for sure. I shall let it play many hours and see if things open up at all, but so far a nice combination.


----------



## jantze

OK, I'll buy Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B.

 Thank you all for feedback


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got another tube that doesn't hum. The Mullard GZ30 with the GE 6EW7s is making a very nice sound. Not quite as airy as the 274B but the bass is deeper for sure. I shall let it play many hours and see if things open up at all, but so far a nice combination._

 


 Well, the soundstage with the Mullard GZ30 is pretty much 95% of that when using the 274B, maybe even a bit higher. The sense of air and space around the instruments is not quite as defined, but with the K701 it still sounds clean and the bass is very tight and controlled. A nice tube at a reasonable cost (well at least comapred to the SEP 274B). I'd say 95% of the performance for 10% of the cost.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the soundstage with the Mullard GZ30 is pretty much 95% of that when using the 274B, maybe even a bit higher. The sense of air and space around the instruments is not quite as defined, but with the K701 it still sounds clean and the bass is very tight and controlled. A nice tube at a reasonable cost (well at least comapred to the SEP 274B). I'd say 95% of the performance for 10% of the cost._

 

I have one NOS -58 Mullard GZ30, is this the same?


----------



## sclamb

Not sure if it is exactly the same, although being a GZ30 it will work. 

 Mine is a 5Z4 GZ30 CV2748 Mullard KB/DA Brown Base. Sadly, the tube glow is nowhere near as enticing as the 274B!


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the soundstage with the Mullard GZ30 is pretty much 95% of that when using the 274B, maybe even a bit higher. The sense of air and space around the instruments is not quite as defined, but with the K701 it still sounds clean and the bass is very tight and controlled. A nice tube at a reasonable cost (well at least comapred to the SEP 274B). I'd say 95% of the performance for 10% of the cost._

 

Where can you buy them for $15 (10% x $150)?


----------



## sclamb

On eBay. I got one for $20 and one for $18.50. OK, so around 12% of the price of a SEP 274B, but still a good buy given the relative performance.


----------



## LarryK2

My maxed WA6 is coming along very nicely - I'm really enjoying this amp. So, am I about 1/4 of the way to complete burn in? I'm using the stock output tubes and the Sophia - nice. Home system: Denon DVD 1500II (matches SQ of any $3K CDP I've heard), WA6, Senn 650s. 

 My office system was sounding almost as good as my home system a couple of weeks ago, but as the WA6 continues to improve, this is no longer the case. It's still a very good sound though (Vista, wav, XXHighend player, Silverstone EB01, WA3, AKG k701s). I plan on buying a good DAC for this system soon (DacMagic?), as this is the weak link. 

 Best,
 Larry


----------



## jantze

OK, I finally did the round 2 modifications. What do you think guys, did I miss something?































 It's a shame that the new Mills resistors are brown instead of black. I don't like brown


----------



## jamato8

Yeah, too bad about the color. :^)

 Looks very neat and well laid out. I would have the first dropping resistor a little back of the cap rather than right under it because it will heat the cap up as it get rid of heat. What wattage did you use? I like to use at least 5 watt and even 12 though I used the 5 watt Kiwame. I guess those are 5 watt. When did they change to brown? The 560's I would move back away from the cap some. 

 Nice work, how does it sound?


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, too bad about the color. :^)

 Looks very neat and well laid out. I would have the first dropping resistor a little back of the cap rather than right under it because it will heat the cap up as it get rid of heat. What wattage did you use? I like to use at least 5 watt and even 12 though I used the 5 watt Kiwame. I guess those are 5 watt. When did they change to brown? The 560's I would move back away from the cap some. 

 Nice work, how does it sound?_

 

The first ones are 5 watt Mills. I ordered those about two months ago, and that was the first time I got brown resistors. The gap to those caps is about ½ inch, so I think it will do. I guess I was a bit afraid that those resistors would move against those transforms. Silly me, since that ain't gonna happen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: I moved those resistors more away from the caps


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work, how does it sound?_

 

Oh, no listening yet. Trying to find my stock tubes for the burn in. I'm gonna burn in this baby for two days, until I get my new tubes from Woo Audio.
 I ordered 2 x matched pair of narrow 6EW7's and a Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B from Jack.

 This week I have all the time, since I broke my ankle, so I have to stay home all day


----------



## Gradofan2

Well... my maxed WA6 SE arrived today. 

 Set it up with the stock Sovtek rectifier, and a pair of Sylvania 6DE7s (just for burn in) and briefly tried it out with my HD580/600s, RS-1s, D5000s and AD2000s, with my Marantz SA8001 as the source.

 No hum, or hiss at any volume level. No audible transformer hum. No flashes.

 Just incredible sound out of any set of phones - both high and low impedance. In fact, the low impedance phones may actually sound a hair better - if I can really discern any difference. All sound amazingly simliar - and each is phenomenal. I've never heard the RS-1s, and AD2000s sound better... or... the D5000s for that matter (just as good as with the X-CANv8). 

 The amp has all the power you would ever want - plays very loudly at 10-11 O'clock with both high and low impedance phones. 

 Incredible detail and resolution throughout the audio spectrum. Spacious soundstage with all phones, with good separation and positioning. Bass is fast and tight, and extended with great texture, and the mids and highs are incredibly clear, detailed and extended. All with a very quiet background.

 Quite simply the best sound I've heard out of all the amps I've tried, by a fair margin - including the Singlepower Extreme.

 I've got all the good tubes to try, as it burns in, including the Princess. 

 But... how much better can it really get, even with the Princess, and Tung Sol 5U4GB / GBYs, and Tung Sol 6DE7s, or Raytheon 6EW7s?

 Pretty amazing, really!


----------



## jantze

np. Riverside - Out of Myself






 Oh my, does it get even better with Sophia Mesh Plate 274B & RCA 6DE7's? I'm listening with dirt cheap Chinese tubes now


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Just wait till it is burned-in and you get 100 hours on the princess.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just wait till it is burned-in and you get 100 hours on the princess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hope my burn-in time would be less then last time (fully maxed), since now I'm using the old V-Caps & Black Gates. I only added two more Black Gate Power Tanks + one new 22uf cap. Lets's see or hear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope my Sophia will arrive on Friday


----------



## jamato8

Give the Sophia 50 plus hours also but I pretty much enjoyed it right off.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Give the Sophia 50 plus hours also but I pretty much enjoyed it right off._

 

Even with my Chinese 5AR4 this sounds pretty damn good. Oh, and of course I'm listening with my senns, since I wouldn't sacrifice my modded D2000's at any cost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Once I get my slim 6EW7's I'm trying my NOS GZ30. But then again, Sophia might take too much listening time.

 Thanks a lot for all your tweeks jamato8, after all your mods and help even a newbie like me could mod my WA6


----------



## jamato8

Sure. As others have noted, with the mod you can really get more out of the rectifiers. The music is just more alive and exciting.


----------



## takezo

nice job jantze... great soldering work, as usual.
 took me approx. another 300 hrs. for the amp to sound exquisite
 after modding the power supply.

 and congrats gradofan2... after some up and downs in the sq due
 to the blackgates settling, you'll end up with one hell of an amp
 for the price...

 think about it this way, if john didn't open up his unit and started
 to experiment with it, we'd all still be ponying up for the stock
 wa6... thank you john.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nice job jantze... great soldering work, as usual.
 took me approx. another 300 hrs. for the amp to sound exquisite
 after modding the power supply.

 and congrats gradofan2... after some up and downs in the sq due
 to the blackgates settling, you'll end up with one hell of an amp
 for the price...

 think about it this way, if john didn't open up his unit and started
 to experiment with it, we'd all still be ponying up for the stock
 wa6... thank you john._

 

Thanks! And thank you! You, too, have helped me out so much during my tube rolling and modifications. 

 I'm so happy that John actually opened his WA6 back in the day and started to modify this small miracle 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think all WA6 owners should start a "free beer for the boys" -campaign for you two. I'm in


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think all WA6 owners should start a "free beer for the boys" -campaign for you two. I'm in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Put me down for at LEAST a case worth. I am lucky enough to live a reasonable distance from John, and I was fortunate to have him modify my WA6 for me, as I would no doubt start a house fire if I tried it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I owe him a big debt of gratitude for taking my amp up several notches!


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cAsE sEnSiTiVe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Put me down for at LEAST a case worth. I am lucky enough to live a reasonable distance from John, and I was fortunate to have him modify my WA6 for me, as I would no doubt start a house fire if I tried it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I owe him a big debt of gratitude for taking my amp up several notches! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think it would be easiest if they both would just put their paypal account addresses here. I would chip in!

 Free beer is the best one


----------



## jamato8

I like dark beer but to be honest I am happy that you guys are really enjoying the change. I mean we more or less hear the same thing now, have great sounding amps and are sharing in this experience.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like dark beer but to be honest I am happy that you guys are really enjoying the change. I mean we more or less hear the same thing now, have great sounding amps and are sharing in this experience._

 

I consider it as an insult if decline from free beer


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I consider it as an insult if decline from free beer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 

Now I feel in a bind. I don't want to insult anyone. I mean I am a very sensitive guy! :^)

 I have been running the 6 all day with the EML 274B but I have changed my source. The iBasso D3 will output directly from the dac and bypasses the internal amp so I have been using this USB based dac to drive the 6. The sound is really very, very good. Great depth and width and explosive dynamics. I hope my Monica II isn't in need of retirement! The thing about Monica is I can take her everywhere and can use my iRiver optical out or any of my Sony portable CD players with optical out. Well I shall see.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I feel in a bind. I don't want to insult anyone. I mean I am a very sensitive guy! :^)_

 

I understand. Just PM me with your PayPal address, and I only send you $10. That should cover one proper export beer


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I feel in a bind. I don't want to insult anyone. I mean I am a very sensitive guy! :^)

 I have been running the 6 all day with the EML 274B but I have changed my source. The iBasso D3 will output directly from the dac and bypasses the internal amp so I have been using this USB based dac to drive the 6. The sound is really very, very good. Great depth and width and explosive dynamics. I hope my Monica II isn't in need of retirement! The thing about Monica is I can take her everywhere and can use my iRiver optical out or any of my Sony portable CD players with optical out. Well I shall see._

 

The real trick is getting a high quality good sounding mini-RCA cable. I now have several - with my ALO SXC on top, Soloz 12-strand in second but still very good for half the price, and then highflyin9 and barqy have both made me a decent affordable mini-RCA with SPC that is just behind the Soloz for half the retail cost of the Soloz.

 I still think my Headroom Micro DAC portable with optical from Macbook is slightly ahead of the D3 USB DAC, but I have no complaints about the D3 so far. The Pico as a DAC/Pre-amp is also still slightly better.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The real trick is getting a high quality good sounding mini-RCA cable._

 

Try Signal Cable Silver Mini.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jantze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try Signal Cable Silver Mini._

 

Too late - I already have the best! ALO cryo SXC... I was trying to make sure Jam was using top notch as well.


----------



## jamato8

Maybe I will make one, one of these days. I make my mini to mini using hyper pure silver (dead soft). I used to make and sell IC's and they were compared to some of the best but I haven't bothered on the RCA to mini for some reason. I am using a Pivot. It does a good job.


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I feel in a bind. I don't want to insult anyone. I mean I am a very sensitive guy! :^)

 I have been running the 6 all day with the EML 274B but I have changed my source. The iBasso D3 will output directly from the dac and bypasses the internal amp so I have been using this USB based dac to drive the 6. The sound is really very, very good. Great depth and width and explosive dynamics. I hope my Monica II isn't in need of retirement! The thing about Monica is I can take her everywhere and can use my iRiver optical out or any of my Sony portable CD players with optical out. Well I shall see._

 

i'm glad you found a way to get a good sound thru the EML. the source is
 something i rarely think about in the chain but it may be the most important...


----------



## jamato8

I guess some posts were lost due to the last outage. 

 I am using a Tungsol 5R4GY right now. After cleaning the pins of this older NOS tube the sound is very enjoyable. There is nice extension with a solid bass foundation. 

 I am back to using Monica and getting great tunes with a very open soundstage on my live Grateful Dead recordings.

 edit: The Tungsol is really coming into its own. I will see how this plays out.


----------



## Orcin

I guess my post from yesterday was lost in the outage, so I'll try again.

 Jack sent me a stock WA6 and a stock WA6SE for the Houston Head-Fi Meet on Saturday. Here they are as I set up to listen for the first time.








 I was in the market for an amp, and the Woo6 was on my short list. I was considering the pdps mod but Jack really wanted more Head-Fi'ers to hear the WA6SE. There are enough other advantages in the new design to give me a reason to consider the SE. By the way, Jack offered to sell a modded WA6 for $675 (that's $90 for the pdps), so the difference is $375 or 50% more.

 Of course, I don't know the effect of the mod, but the difference between the WA6 and the 6SE is significant. After about 6-8 hours of total time listening to the two amps, I am convinced. The differences between rectifiers is more apparent on the SE, plus there is a lot more power to spare for transients and just simply more open, airy, unconstrained volume. Keep in mind this is with two amps that have very little burn-in and mostly stock tubes. I have already noticed improvement in the SE over the past two days, and the gap may even be widening as both amps burn-in.

 I also convinced Jack to send along a Sophia Princess, and in a word... WOW! I have about 20 hours on this tube now, and it is everything advertised. It has clarity, detail, soundstage, and a deep, tight bass. It brings a relaxed and powerful sound to the WA6SE. I thought it was a substantial improvement over the stock 5U4G and 5AR4 that I had available to compare, even without burn-in.

 @takezo: Thank you for the recommendation on the RCA 5R4GYB. I found a NOS 1966 for $18, and it was a great investment. Paired with the stock GE fat bottle 6ew7's, it has great soundstage and solid bass, and it is a quite enjoyable chance of pace from the 5AR4/GZ34 sound. This combo sounded really good in the stock WA6 also.

 The best combination that I used so far is the Princess with the RCA 6de7's that Jack supplied. This takes either amp to the highest level that I have heard. I also really liked the 6de7's with the stock 5AR4 in the WA6. I have ordered a Amperex Bugle Boy f32 5AR4/GZ34 to try with the RCA's (the Mullard f31's are just stupidly expensive and I would spend my metal base money on the Sophia Princess instead). I haven't had a chance to try the 6ew7's with the Princess, but I am eager to see if the driver tube has much effect.

 In summary, I think the stock WA6SE deserves consideration against a fully-upgraded and pdps-modded (extreme maxxed) WA6 for the exact same price. It would have the advantage of more upside (with upgraded parts later) and a shorter burn-in on the front end. I would love to sometime compare mature versions of these two amps, but I am very impressed with the sound of the WA6SE without the parts upgrades. I am not technical enough to explain or understand the design differences between a WA6 and WA6SE, but you can read about them already in this thread. What I am saying is that Woo Audio's implementation or adaptation of John's pdps mod in this new model accomplishes a lot when compared to a stock WA6. If there is a little extra money in the budget, I would suggest that the Sophia Princess for $150 might offer more value than the parts upgrades.


----------



## robinje

I really dig my 6SE with the Princess rectifier and both 6EW7's and 6DE7's. My other favorite rectifier so far is the RCA 5U4GB, which to me has outstanding bass character, perhaps equal or even better than the Princess.


----------



## Gradofan2

Updated 10/24/08 - 1:12 ET

 So Far... I've tried the following rectifier tubes... with the following "first blush" ratings (which may be nothing more than my imagination - they all sound so similar):

 1. Theoretical Extreme - 10.0 
 2. Sophia Princess 274B - 9.9 (good, but... way overpriced - everything else is a huge bargain)
 3. Philco 5U4GB - 9.7
 3. Sylvania 5U4GB - 9.7 (sounds virtually identical to Philco) 
 4. Tung Sol 5R4GYA - 9.5
 5. Tung Sol 5U4GB - 9.4
 6. Sovtek - 5U4G - 9.3
 ... Theoretical Extreme - 1.0

 (Update): The closer you get to 1. the more clarity, resolution, detail, separation, extension, soundstage / air, dynamics, pace and impact. The Princess 274B seems to have more of all of these qualities, and the Sovtek has very slightly less... but very slightly - not a $135 less. Certainly, the Princess 274B does not yet seem so superior to the rest... as to justify it's lofty price. At least at this point in the burn-in process. Maybe it will more fully distinguish itself as burn-in proceeds.

 I'll refine these ratings as I proceed - I just "pulled them out" to convey my "first blush" impressions of how little variation there seems to be between rectifier tubes. I guess I was surprised - there is not a greater disparity between tubes.

 Sure the SP 274B MP sounds superb...

 But, the point is... there just isn't a huge difference in any of them - they're all very close to one another. 

 Though, I would say... the Philco 5U4GB was a surprise (as well as the Sylvania). I had expected the Tung Sols to be great - they always are. But, I was unfamiliar with the Philco - hadn't tried one before, that I recall, in any tube. I assume they're made by some other manufacturer (possibly Tung Sol?), but they do sound great.

 (Update): And... upon "further review" the Sylvania 5U4GB sounds virtually identical to the Philco - which I suppose they should, since you say above, they're both made by Sylvania. These two tubes seem to be almost as good as the SP 274B in most respects - great resolution, clarity, detail, soundstage, air, pace, impact and high/low extension. Especially great with Senns - some might consider them a hair too bright with brighter phones.

 But... how much difference in their sound can you really expect - not much. It's all very subtle... at least to me. Possibly too subtle for my "pedestian" sensibilities and sophistication, I guess.

 I guess... I must really question... how much I would invest in a rectifier tube, since there are such subtle differences in their sound... at least to me, at this point in the burn in of the whole set up. Though, I suppose its a bit pointless to do much tube rolling if the Blackgate caps are so unstable until they're fully burnt in. I mean, if you try a few tubes one day, and others another day, you may not be fairly comparing their sound (hard to get a truly "apples and apples" comparison, unless you try them all at nearly the same time.

 I assume rolling the driver/power tubes in the amp unit create a much greater variation in the sound of the WA6 SE than rolling the rectifier tube does.


----------



## takezo

glad you're enjoying it orcin... the main difference between the stock wa6 and
 the stock wa6SE are these 2: the SE has the PDPS and a separate PowerSupply
 section to maximize SQ and minimize heat buildup...

 neither has the blackgate caps so the sound should settle quickly and give you
 great sound, especially the SE...


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ...I'll refine these ratings as I proceed - I just "pulled them out" to convey my "first blush" impressions of how little variation there seems to be between rectifier tubes. I guess I was surprised - there is not a greater disparity between tubes.


 ...I assume rolling the driver/power tubes in the amp unit create a much greater variation in the sound of the WA6 SE than rolling the rectifier tube does._

 

if you've maxxed your SE then the blackgates will go thru changes like you've
 never experienced before... great sound one day... congested and bloated
 sound the next... i wouldn't invest in any one particular type of rectifier
 until the caps have settled at the sweet spot and you'd be able to fully
 appreciate the sound signature of the amp... have fun.


----------



## musicmind

Orcin and GradoFan2, thanks for writing up your initial impressions of your amps.

 RE: Philco 5u4gb, if I am not mistaken, these were made by Sylvania


----------



## jamato8

Philco sourced tubes from Sylvania starting in the 1920's.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Philco sourced tubes from Sylvania starting in the 1920's._

 

So... why not... just get Sylvania 5U4GBs... since they're the same tube?

 They're much easier to find... and... generally cost a bit less.

 And... they sound virtually identical to the Philco 5U4GBs - at least to me.

 But... then... I'm finding almost all the tubes I try (so far) sound very similar in the WA6 SEM (for Maxed).

 I just popped in the Raytheon Big Bottle 6EW7s. They may be a bit better than the Sylvania 6DE7s... but... its very slight.

 This amp is really phenomenal... regardless... of the tubes selected. And... I can't get over how much better it sounds than the SP Extreme I tried. This amp is simply a literal "gem" compared to the Extreme. It may not have the "range of voices" that the Extreme might have - I don't know. 

 Though... I suppose I never really "gave Mikhail and SP a chance" - he might have been able to "tune it to my expectations." But... "God only knows" at what cost, and over what timeframe. I just wasn't willing to "take the risk" on "ole Mikhail." Quite literally... there is no risk with "Jack and Woo Audio" - none whatsoever!!! 

 Its interesting that the sound is so consistent... no matter what tubes I try. Maybe its just that the one's I've tried so far, are so similar - I picked tubes that I suspected would have the "Tung Sol dynamic sound." And... they do - which is good... but... that also makes them all sound very similar. So, what else should I expect.

 Regardless... the amp is superb! I have a very difficult time believing there can be much better - if any. 

 Though, I'm still talking about almost single digit percentage improvements (maybe a little more) over much lesser priced amps (such as the DV332 with the Senns). I firmly believe that's the nature of audio gear. Though, it could also be my "tin ear." As I noted elsewhere... it may just be that "Lafitte Rothschild refinement" is lost on my "Budweiser sense and sensibilities."

 Maybe an "amateur's" opinion, compared to you folks', that the WA6 SEM is so great... but... it really is phenomenal in "my World."


----------



## dan_can

Never heard WA6, but fully max'ed WA6 SE is a phenomenal amp, although mine got some sparking/humming issues which are getting fixed by WooAudio.


----------



## jamato8

There is no reason not to get the Sylvania. I was just pointing out that Philico and Sylvania had a close relationship for years. 

  Quote:


 So... why not... just get Sylvania 5U4GBs... since they're the same tube?


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe an "amateur's" opinion, compared to you folks', that the WA6 SEM is so great... but... it really is phenomenal in "my World."_

 


 I believe there is no such thing as an "amateur", meaning less informed, opinion. Your ears are just as valid as mine or anyone else's, and you hear what you hear. It could be that you will hear more differences as your Blackgates begin to burn in.

 I do find it fascinating that you don't hear much difference in the rectifiers. I believe you - I just have a different experience. I gotta try that Sovtek 5U4G again after a little burn-in.

 I wouldn't complain if I were you... if you like the $18 Lafitte just as well as the $200 bottle, you can drink a lot more! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One thing we both agree on... the WA6SE is awesome.


----------



## Torero

Soon I will arrive my wa6 max y i would like to know who is the better retifier tube? Sophia o EML?


----------



## Gradofan2

UPDATED: 10/25/08 7:57 AM ET...

 As you'll see above... my comments below... relate to the WA6 SE, which has inductors in the power supply, which tend to minimize the differences you might otherwise hear with different tubes. So "you're mileage may differ." 

 It guess that also means... I've spent a lot of money on Rectifier tubes that may not make much difference in the sound of my amp. "Bummer." 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Torero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Soon I will arrive my wa6 max y i would like to know who is the better retifier tube? Sophia o EML?_

 

I don't know about comparing these two, except that some seem to think the Sophia is better than the EML, and some seem to think they're about equal.

 But... I can tell you... you'll get about 98% of the Sophia's sound from the Sylvania 5U4GB, or the Philco 5U4GB, either one (the Sylvania and Philco are the same tube and sound identical). And... you'll get about 94%+ of the same sound as the Sophia from the Tung Sol equivalents. 

 At least that's the way it seems to me, before my amp and tubes are fully burnt in. I believe I'd start with one of these alternatives, before I invested $150+ in the Sophia. They're only about 10%-20% of the cost of the Sophia.


----------



## jamato8

I would think that the SE will have less influence from rectifier tube than on the regular 6. There are two inductors on the SE and this will take away much of the influence because of the stiffening of the power supply and better delivery of current when needed. Inductors have a great resistance to ac, therefore they reduce ripple very well when the correct size of inductor is used. With this you have a very good supply to the tubes with less effect from what is rectifying the current. There will still be some influence but not to the degree found with the standard 6. What comes into play on the SE is the quality of the inductor and the quality of the caps.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would think that the SE will have less influence from rectifier tube than on the regular 6. There are two inductors on the SE and this will take away much of the influence because of the stiffening of the power supply and better delivery of current when needed. Inductors have a great resistance to ac, therefore they reduce ripple very well when the correct size of inductor is used. With this you have a very good supply to the tubes with less effect from what is rectifying the current. There will still be some influence but not to the degree found with the standard 6. What comes into play on the SE is the quality of the inductor and the quality of the caps._

 

I guess that would explain why I can't tell a big difference between rectifier tubes in my WA6 SE-Mxd.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess that would explain why I can't tell a big difference between rectifier tubes in my WA6 SE-Mxd._

 

Yes but I still think you will notice a little more difference as your new amp settles in and refines. 

 I noticed to a great degree an amp that I modded with some nice large inductors that it really didn't matter as much was rectifiers I used. It actually took some of the fun away as I like being able to tune the amp but the supply was very solid, which is what you are after. I believe one of the inductors I used was an L193 Hammond. Well I do like inductors and they can do much more for ripple than just caps or even large caps with less sound influence that a cap can have, which is why I like to use Black Gates. Panasonic makes some excellent large voltage caps that in polar caps are as good or better than Black Gate polar caps but not as good as the nonpolar BG.


 Wow, the 6 is sounding great tonight. I have the 5R4GY Tungsol in with about 50 hours on the tube now. It kind of sounded ok after sounding very good and then came back in. I also think it is the later night voltage, that gets cleaner as more appliances are turned off. The sound is excellent and the dynamics give you butterflies in your stomach.


----------



## Gradofan2

Here's some interesting info... for those of us... who are not EEs... and have no idea what a rectifier does, or what differences rolling rectifiers might have in the sound. 

rectifiers

What does a rectifier (tube) do? [Archive] - SH Forums

 There's more if you do a Google Search... but... this is the essence of it all.

 From this information, it sounds like as you move to rectifiers with a slower rise time (response), you perceive a "softer" sound (less speed, less sharp attack, more bass bloom, etc.), and I assume the "decay" would increase (more atmosphere, reverb, etc.). Basically, a thicker, more "meaty" sound, compared to a sharper, leaner, harder sound. 

 Except... in the WA6 SE... the inductors do not permit as much variation in the rise time, so you get a lot less variation in the sound as the rise time slows from one type of rectifier to another. 

 Is that about it - or... maybe close???

 Also... just curious... 

 What effects... if any... would the Weber Copper Caps (SS rectifiers), or Sovtek SS Rectifiers, or similar SS rectifiers have??? 

 Would they stress the drive tubes excessively??? 

 Would they sound too hard / harsh???

Search for a tube

Solid State Rectifier

 And...

 ... by the way... does the Princess 274B tighten up and sound faster with burn in??? 

 Now that I know the 274B has a slower rise time, and lower output - the new tube does sound a bit that way (perhaps only imagined / placebo effect)???


----------



## Gradofan2

Just wonderin'... how the SS rectfiers are - see below...


----------



## jamato8

Solid state rectifiers hit the tubes hard and I don't, in general, care for them. If done really right that can be ok but not just plugged in.


----------



## jonoliew

So.. just to start this debate alllllll over again.. Has anyone compared the WA6SE, WA4 and WA5LE? What's the diff? Is it worth the extra money compared to the WA6SE?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jonoliew* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So.. just to start this debate alllllll over again.. Has anyone compared the WA6SE, WA4 and WA5LE? What's the diff? Is it worth the extra money compared to the WA6SE?_

 

Updated: 10/27/08 10:43 ET

 My impressions are...

 ... that there are only very small incremental improvements in SQ of audio equipment, beyond a certain investment level - the "sweet spot." That is certainly consistent with most reviews of other audio components - that very modestly priced components can offer 90%+ of the SQ of the most expensive components (e.g. Monarchy M24/NM24 DAC, Marantz SA8001 CDP, etc.). 

 For example... as I've noted elsewhere... the WA6 SEMxd sounds great... and... it is better than my DV332 - but, it is only 5-10% better than the DV332, which is a $420 amp (shipped). Though... it is better with all types of phones, than the DV332 (an OTL amp), which was best with Senns. I really doubt anything above the SE, or SEMxd, really sound that much better. I suspect the WA6 Mxd is the "sweet spot - best SQ for the money invested. 

 Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below).

 Now... perhaps the WA5 LE is great, if you're after both a pre-amp and headphone amp... but... if you're after primarily a headphone amp - my guess is the WA6 Mxd (with the PDPSU) is the optimum SQ for the money invested.

 Perhaps, others have compared some of these amps - and can offer experienced perspective. But, I'm skeptical that investing a lot more money in headphone amps, than the cost of the WA6 Mxd, will produce more than very small incremental improvements in SQ. 

 Though... I suppose you should note... I didn't take my own "sage advice." What can I say... "I'm weak, I'm weak."


----------



## jonoliew

Yea. I understand where you're coming from. Cause i was planning on getting the WE6 SE. But got kinda confused along the way. Was kind of thinking, since i was going to spend that much on an amp, why not just get the flagship model. But your answer seems like the logical way to go. Thanks for the advice! Now i just have to wait for the dumb Aussie dollar to bounce back..


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below)._

 


 I just bought the WA6SE after having listened to it vs. a lot of other amps at the Houston meet on Saturday. Those other amps included the SP Extreme and Headamp GS-1. The WA6SE sounded outstanding compared to all of them, but I do agree with you that we are splitting hairs and I could have been happy with either the GS-1 or Extreme as well.

 I was determined not to go over $1500 max and I wanted more than the stock tubes. I think that the extra $450 will go farther for me if invested in tubes, including the Sophia 274B which I also bought. I haven't heard the cap upgrades so I won't know what I am missing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Sophia Princess is really awesome when combined with some Sylvania NOS fat bottle 6ew7's (for soundstage) or the RCA 6de7's (for punch). Either combo is just superb. I am loving this amp so much that I could not let it leave my house, so I had to send Jack money instead of returning the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still don't agree about the difference in rectifiers being small on the SE, but your mileage may vary. I have rolled in several different rectifiers, and I can hear significant changes with all of them. The difference in soundstage and bass clarity between the Sovtek 5U4G and the Sophia Princess is dramatic to me. As the Princess continues to burn-in, the difference has become more easy to detect.


----------



## musicmind

Congrats on the WA6SE Orcin, and thanks for your feedback on how the amp compared to the others at your meet.

 It was great of Jack to send the amp to you so that people at the meet could get a listen of the stock WA6 and WA6SE side by side.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just bought the WA6SE after having listened to it vs. a lot of other amps at the Houston meet on Saturday. Those other amps included the SP Extreme and Headamp GS-1. The WA6SE sounded outstanding compared to all of them, but I do agree with you that we are splitting hairs and I could have been happy with either the GS-1 or Extreme as well.

 I was determined not to go over $1500 max and I wanted more than the stock tubes. I think that the extra $450 will go farther for me if invested in tubes, including the Sophia 274B which I also bought. I haven't heard the cap upgrades so I won't know what I am missing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Sophia Princess is really awesome when combined with some Sylvania NOS fat bottle 6ew7's (for soundstage) or the RCA 6de7's (for punch). Either combo is just superb. I am loving this amp so much that I could not let it leave my house, so I had to send Jack money instead of returning the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still don't agree about the difference in rectifiers being small on the SE, but your mileage may vary. I have rolled in several different rectifiers, and I can hear significant changes with all of them. The difference in soundstage and bass clarity between the Sovtek 5U4G and the Sophia Princess is dramatic to me. As the Princess continues to burn-in, the difference has become more easy to detect._

 

Which version of the SE do you have - the stock version, without the upgraded caps, and resistors?

 It may be that the upgraded caps and resistors, while "green," impart their own sound, which diminishes the differences in the sound of various rectifiers. Or, it could be that I just don't appreciate the differences. Though, from Jamato8's points, I think he means... that the design of the SE... isn't as affected by tube changes, as the WA6 is.

 Of course, I do notice rather subtle changes (e.g. the Philco and Sylvania 5U4GB, when teamed with some of the 6EW7s, and selected 6DE7s, seem to have a more dynamic sound than some of the other tubes), but not dramatic changes. 

 Did you compare the SE to the WA6 Mxd - did you notice much difference?

 I'm surprised that you thought the GS-1 comes close to the WA6 SE - I would not have thought it would. And... my experience with Extreme was different - the SE Mxd was quite a bit better - though, with the right tubes (e.g. Raytheon 6080WBs + Tung Sol 2c51, or Amperex 7062, etc.) the Extreme was closer to the SE Mxd, than with other tubes. But... the Extreme I demo'd had some "issues."

 Anyway... I'm very impressed with the WA6 SE Mxd, regardless. Its just that I haven't yet experienced "great changes" in its sound, as the result of tube rolling - as I did with the Extreme.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Updated: 10/27/08 10:43 ET

 My impressions are...

 ... that there are only very small incremental improvements in SQ of audio equipment, beyond a certain investment level - the "sweet spot." That is certainly consistent with most reviews of other audio components - that very modestly priced components can offer 90%+ of the SQ of the most expensive components (e.g. Monarchy M24/NM24 DAC, Marantz SA8001 CDP, etc.). 

 For example... as I've noted elsewhere... the WA6 SEMxd sounds great... and... it is better than my DV332 - but, it is only 5-10% better than the DV332, which is a $420 amp (shipped). Though... it is better with all types of phones, than the DV332 (an OTL amp), which was best with Senns. I really doubt anything above the SE, or SEMxd, really sound that much better. I suspect the WA6 Mxd is the "sweet spot - best SQ for the money invested. 

 Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below).

 Now... perhaps the WA5 LE is great, if you're after both a pre-amp and headphone amp... but... if you're after primarily a headphone amp - my guess is the WA6 Mxd (with the PDPSU) is the optimum SQ for the money invested.

 Perhaps, others have compared some of these amps - and can offer experienced perspective. But, I'm skeptical that investing a lot more money in headphone amps, than the cost of the WA6 Mxd, will produce more than very small incremental improvements in SQ. 

 Though... I suppose you should note... I didn't take my own "sage advice." What can I say... "I'm weak, I'm weak."_

 

I agree about very small gains above a certain price point. Blutarsky and I cannot tell with our eyes closed whether we are listening to my Woo WA6 maxed with PDPSU and Sophia ($1200), his Zana Deux ($2000) or his Melos SHA Gold ($1800-2000). With the Single Power Square Wave XL discrete SS amp ($1250 2008 model with blackgates), it had to be running the HD600 balanced to achieve the same or better huge soundstage of those single ended tube amps, but everything else single ended was pretty darn close as well with it.

 This was using Grado HP-1, HP-2, PS-1, RS-1 and HD600. They all sound so good that it would take days or weeks to flesh out the gains of one over the other. The only headphone with which we could hear an immediate difference with was using the stock Grado PS-1 where they had more bass with the WA6 (but maybe too much). With a modified PS-1 in an HF-1 housing and with 325i metal cups and silver dragon cable, they sounded the same again (that was also the best sounding dynamic headphone on hand).


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which version of the SE do you have - the stock version, without the upgraded caps, and resistors?_

 

stock


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you compare the SE to the WA6 Mxd_

 

no


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm surprised that you thought the GS-1 comes close to the WA6 SE - I would not have thought it would._

 

Keep in mind that this was at a meet. The source was the same DAC model, but not the same DAC unit. So it could have been different in a quiet setting with controlled volumes and the same source. I just meant that they were both very good, and you could be happy with either one. They are probably within 10% of each other IMO.

 Of course, one is ss and one is tube, so if you have a bias either way it could be a much different evaluation. In the end, I liked the WA6SE better because it was tube and offered the sound signature that I was looking for along with the flexibility of tube rolling. But I respected the sound quality of the GS-1, and if I were to buy a ss s/e amp under $1000 it would be the one.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And... my experience with Extreme was different - the SE Mxd was quite a bit better - though, with the right tubes (e.g. Raytheon 6080WBs + Tung Sol 2c51, or Amperex 7062, etc.) the Extreme was closer to the SE Mxd, than with other tubes. But... the Extreme I demo'd had some "issues."_

 

See above. I heard a very good Extreme with a very good source (Stello DA100), so I came away more impressed with it than I might have otherwise.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_stock




 no




 Keep in mind that this was at a meet. The source was the same DAC model, but not the same DAC unit. So it could have been different in a quiet setting with controlled volumes and the same source. I just meant that they were both very good, and you could be happy with either one. They are probably within 10% of each other IMO.

 Of course, one is ss and one is tube, so if you have a bias either way it could be a much different evaluation. In the end, I liked the WA6SE better because it was tube and offered the sound signature that I was looking for along with the flexibility of tube rolling. But I respected the sound quality of the GS-1, and if I were to buy a ss s/e amp under $1000 it would be the one.




 See above. I heard a very good Extreme with a very good source (Stello DA100), so I came away more impressed with it than I might have otherwise._

 

I thought both the WA6 and WA6 SE were going to be at that meet - I guess they were, but both were stock, except for the Princess 274B (I just saw your review). 

 Anyway... I guess that pretty well makes the point, though - a stock $1200 (including the tube) WA6 SE sounds as good, or better, as much more expensive amps. 

 And... possibly... the $900 GS-1 sounds about as good, also. 

 Pretty amazing, when you think about it... and all the money invested in more costly amps.


----------



## Torero

My Wa6 maxxed arrived yesterday. Upgrades: PDPS, Capacitors, Resistors and Atenuator. Tubes: 5AR4 and RCA 6DE7.

 After my Wa6max burn during 8h. Impressions:

 - Increase and better bass
 - New details that I had not heard never.
 - More realistic and natural sound overcoat the voices.
 - Little volume


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway... I guess that pretty well makes the point, though - a stock $1200 (including the tube) WA6 SE sounds as good, or better, as much more expensive amps. 

 And... possibly... the $900 GS-1 sounds about as good, also. 

 Pretty amazing, when you think about it... and all the money invested in more costly amps._

 


 The amps that really sounded better to me were the DIY amps and electrostatics. The balanced Millet Max, the Blue Hawaii, and the KGSS. The beta22 might have made that list also if we hadn't set it on fire before I got to hear it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But of the commercially available single-ended dynamic amps, the WA6SE was right up with the best, if not the best.


----------



## jamato8

To add to the possibilities of the SE because the regular 6 doesn't have the room, I would try some inductors for the plate of the first section of the 6DE7. 

 An inductor to load the plate, like a Hammond 150 henry 8mA would work great. The first section of the tube has a dropping resistor to the plate for the 62 volts. Instead of having the plate directly getting its energy from a resistor you put in a 150 henry or larger (hammond has a 150 henery 8mA I have used many time at 3300 ohms) and the tube now has an inductor supplying it which gives better dynamic, a cleaner sound and better transparency. The inductor give a type of current supply that is in a way, constant because as the field around the inductor collapses it continues to deliver. The inductor give a good source of current, the cap is for voltage. I do not like to resistor load tubes if I have a choice.

 HAMMOND-63077156C150mA 8DC resistance 3700 max voltage 400 size 0.502.811.501.692.380.187 $17.84 this is parts connections. At Antique Audio in Phoenix, which has a huge, huge tube supply, they are 14 dollars an change. 

 The last time I bought these they were 12 dollars and that wasn't all that long ago. I guess the price of copper mandates much now. edit: I found them at Antique Audio as mentioned above for less than the 17.84.


----------



## jantze

Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B in da house


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

"Hear no Evil"

 What do you have sitting on top of the TV, or the dashboard of your car? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "See no Evil", "Do no Evil"...


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Hear no Evil"

 What do you have sitting on top of the TV, or the dashboard of your car? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "See no Evil", "Do no Evil"..._

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4907573-post3611.html 

 And if you wanna know how my HT looks, click Pics from my signature


----------



## StratCat

jamato8 et al:

 Thanks for a great thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 /me adds WA6 to shortlist of prospective amp purchases

 *subscribes*


----------



## yoff

My Princess is back ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 A few weeks ago I broke my Sophia Princess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !

 All at once I ordered a new one and am very sorry for my wallet , ... but it's so good for my ears ! Thanks to *jamato8* and others we know that WA6-SE and princess are a great couple .

 Though I have both GZ34 and Mullard GZ30 which are very good along with my Grado GS 1000 , the Princess is (I am not able to describe it as you do and english is not my first language) magic , very comfortable and enjoyable .

 Now I am waiting for an EML 274b and do not know if it will surpass the Sophia . Will keep you informed .

 Just a tip for the newbies : WA6-SE + Sophia Princess ... if you can afford them !


----------



## Orcin

"The princess is magic"... I think you describe it perfectly!

 A broken princess would indeed be tragic. I might cry if mine were broken.


----------



## Randolph Duke

Would it make any sense to use the WA6 with computer audio set-up?
 Or should I get a player and haul my CD's out of storage?

 Also if I could use this with my Mac- what's the best connection? line out from mac into WA6?


----------



## jamato8

I would use lossless or wav on the mac and use an external dac, if you have one of the latest models with an optical out if not a USB dac to the Woo.


----------



## Randolph Duke

So would I be able to use something like the predator as a DAC and connect that to a WA6? Or is this overkill?
 (sorry- I'm new to all this and trying to learn)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Randolph Duke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it make any sense to use the WA6 with computer audio set-up?
 Or should I get a player and haul my CD's out of storage?

 Also if I could use this with my Mac- what's the best connection? line out from mac into WA6?_

 

Mac would be great if you ripped the CD's onto it at a high bit rate, at least 320 kbps or lossless. Otherwise, get your CD's out. And, you can still play the CD's on the Mac when the hard drive is full, till you get an external drive for the music.

 I would use a DAC with it, because my Macbook sounds about like my 5.5G iPod video. Decent but nothing to write home about. Great DACs for Mac at a don't go bankrupt budget include Apogee Duet firewire ($500) or Stello DA100 (optical and USB $695). Great DAC at a "I don't wanna eat Ramen and Tuna for months if I spend over $400" price are Headroom Micro DAC ($399) or iBasso D3 ($219).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Randolph Duke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So would I be able to use something like the predator as a DAC and connect that to a WA6? Or is this overkill?
 (sorry- I'm new to all this and trying to learn)_

 

You can use the Predator, although it will add just a little more flavor or seasoning to the sound than a Pico or iBasso D3 (or a dedicated DAC for that matter). Your mileage may vary.


----------



## jamato8

Meh, until my 6 warms up, meh. 

 It took 6 hours today. That is ok with me as the sound is great now but until everything settles., . . a big Meh. . 

 I think it is because of all the caps I use and some feel, and I have noticed this, that the materials the Black Gates are made of require time to form after being turned off. I know Audio Note UK believes they have to reform if turned off and they try and use them where equipment will not be turned off, as in their 60,000 dollar amp, etc.

 I believe that if I took my amp to a meet unless on for some time, as in 6 hours or more, it would be questioned as to how good it was or did I know what I was talking about.


----------



## yoff

To improve sound quality of a WA6-SE do you believe that Tube Dampers are worth it ?


----------



## sclamb

I use the Hal-O dampers. If there is a difference it is not that noticeable, but I figured I paid enough for the amp that a bit more for the dampers couldn't do any harm to extract the ultimate sound


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To improve sound quality of a WA6-SE do you believe that Tube Dampers are worth it ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

on some rectifier tubes it does help with the bass... more control and focus.
 dampers don't seem to do anything for the output 6de7 tubes...


----------



## yoff

Thank you for your comments !


----------



## Torero

It's very interesting. I will try the dampers in my wa6. Although i'm sure that i won't notice nothing. XD


----------



## atbglenn

I personally think tube dampers do nothing for headphone amps since there is no acoustic vibration that can cause a microphonic tube to ring. Just my opinion


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Torero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's very interesting. I will try the dampers in my wa6. --- Although i'm sure that i won't notice nothing. --- XD_

 

So you will notice a change?


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you will notice a change?_

 

LOL


----------



## yoff

Some free stuff to feed and test your WA6 : Julianna Raye's Dominoes (hurry up) !


----------



## jamato8

I still find the Sohpia Princess to have the best overall and enjoyable sound. The frequency response is balanced and the bass drive, dynamics is clean and solid.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still find the Sohpia Princess to have the best overall and enjoyable sound. The frequency response is balanced and the bass drive, dynamics is clean and solid._

 

I think I tend to agree... though... at this early stage in the burn in of my amp and tubes, its difficult to tell - there seems to be be so little difference when everything is NIB. 

 But... as everthing burns in... the differences... seem to become a little easier to discern. 

 Though, it seems to depend a bit on the amp's tubes (which 6DE7s / 6EW7s) being used. I really like the Tung Sol 6DE7s with it.


----------



## jamato8

Where did you get the Tungsol 6DE7?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you get the Tungsol 6DE7?_

 

A tube vendor in OH... if I recall correctly. I've bought so many different tubes over the past few weeks - its hard to recall them all. I had to search long and hard for them though. 

 I also found a Tung Sol 5U4GBY and 5U4GB - which are also great, and just as hard to find. Though these are the straight bottle tubes, and not the ST coke bottles. Still haven't found those.

 And... its funny... that of all those I've tried so far - the stock Sovtek 5U4G ST bottle is one of the best - a very Tung Sol type of sound.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mac would be great if you ripped the CD's onto it at a high bit rate, at least 320 kbps or lossless. Otherwise, get your CD's out. And, you can still play the CD's on the Mac when the hard drive is full, till you get an external drive for the music.

 I would use a DAC with it, because my Macbook sounds about like my 5.5G iPod video. Decent but nothing to write home about. Great DACs for Mac at a don't go bankrupt budget include Apogee Duet firewire ($500) or Stello DA100 (optical and USB $695). Great DAC at a "I don't wanna eat Ramen and Tuna for months if I spend over $400" price are Headroom Micro DAC ($399) or iBasso D3 ($219)._

 

This comment is so funny. ;
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ramen for several months.. dang~! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got Mac Pro setup with Digital Optical Out to External Dac (VDA-2), and it's fantastic so far.

 I've got Woo Audio 6 (stock) and looking for ways to improve without spending fortune on it. Still wonder where you guys buy these wonderful tubes.. (other than SP that is).


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still wonder where you guys buy these wonderful tubes.._

 


 1. eBay
 2. Internet tube vendors (Tube World, Tube Depot, etc.)


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. eBay
 2. Internet tube vendors (Tube World, Tube Depot, etc.)_

 

TUNG SOL COKE BOTTLE 5U4G MCINTOSH AMP RECTIFIER TUBE - eBay (item 400012020950 end time Dec-01-08 17:27:00 PST)

 Is this what I am supposed to buy?


----------



## airstream66

I just wanted to jump in the fray to say that I'm currently working on burning in my stock WA6 with the Sophia. So many people seem to have a maxxed WA6 or WA6-SE that I thought the stock WA6 needed some representing. I have less than 10 hours on both the Sophia and the amp but I have noticed improvement since about the 8 hour point. I'm running the stock RCA 6de7 with the Sophia and I can say that the difference between the Sophia and the stock Sovtek is pretty dramatic. I will keep switching between the two and note the differences but I would say that with the stock WA6 the Sophia is a must have. Of course this opinion could change but that's where I'm at already after just a cursory listen. Forgot to mention that I've mainly been using '08 Senn 650's with stock cable and briefly with UE triple.fi pros with stock cable. Call me Mr. Stock -- at least this week.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I was impressed with Luminette's stock WA6, and felt the maxed mods with Sophia in mine only added that oft spoken of "extra 10%", but for a doubling of the price. 

 I would probably be happy with a stock WA6 and Sophia, but I enjoy rubbing in the fact that side by side in A/B testing that Blutarsky and I can't tell the difference between his $2100 Zana Deux and my $1200 maxed WA6 with PDPSU and Sophia.


----------



## Orcin

Welcome to Head-Fi, airstream66! Sorry for your wallet.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *airstream66* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So many people seem to have a maxxed WA6 or WA6-SE that I thought the stock WA6 needed some representing._

 


 I agree, which is one reason why I wrote this review of the stock units. I think you made a good choice, and I hope you enjoy it.


----------



## atbglenn

[size=large]_To all Head-Fiers, 

 Have a Happy and Safe Thanksgiving. I'm off to PA for a few days 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Glenn_[/size]


----------



## Randolph Duke

How would the Woo6 pair up with ED9's running through a zero DAC?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was impressed with Luminette's stock WA6, and felt the maxed mods with Sophia in mine only added that oft spoken of "extra 10%", but for a doubling of the price. 

 I would probably be happy with a stock WA6 and Sophia, but I enjoy rubbing in the fact that side by side in A/B testing that Blutarsky and I can't tell the difference between his $2100 Zana Deux and my $1200 maxed WA6 with PDPSU and Sophia._

 

I snatched his WA6, but I am in Korea, and the unit didn't arrive in soon enough. Oh well, my brother-in-law is now enjoying the darn units for what I paid for. In any rate, he said he likes the unit and the unit is faultless. He also asks whether there is no original box that WA6 comes with. I have no how it was packaged, but Luminette seems to package it himself? I have no clue.

 I will be coming back after Thanksgiving. Hopefully, he doesn't break the unit by then~!


----------



## airstream66

Orcin;5047171 said:
			
		

> Welcome to Head-Fi, airstream66! Sorry for your wallet.
> 
> Thanks. Yes, I can tell already that this is a pretty insidious hobby.
> 
> ...


----------



## Orcin

@Glenn: Happy Thanksgiving to you too, and have a safe trip!

 @tosehee: The "official" Woo box is plain, brown, and unmarked. It contains two stryofoam packing halves that enclose the amp and fit very snugly in the box. It may be that you have the original box and just don't realize it.

 @airstream66: What to expect as a result of burn-in? This is an interesting question, and I will leave it to others to tell me I don't know what I am talking about but here goes.

 The soundstage will expand in depth and maybe height. The bass will become more defined and/or less boomy. Highs will become less harsh/shrill and you will stop noticing some *digital bits* in the sound (*I don't know how else to describe this but you will probably know what I mean). The midrange will become more balanced relative to the other two. Sometimes this results in a more forward sound, or maybe just more relaxed.


----------



## Orcin

Sophia vs. Sovtek: Yes... the Sovtek has less detail, smaller soundstage, more pronounced bass IMO. I think Gradofan2 has a different take on this tube, judging it better than I do. Maybe I also need to give this tube more time.


----------



## kevinvisionm

i just listened to my woo 6 with sophia tube. it's a completely different level compare to stock tube and littledot mkivse. it has more dept, sound stage and .... wonderful(all i can say). just wondering, i notice the volume level of the woo is a bit low compare to littledot. i turned about 2 o'clock on the woo but about 12 on the littledot. is that because of the gain switch? i chose high for my can hd650.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kevinvisionm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i just listened to my woo 6 with sophia tube. it's a completely different level compare to stock tube and littledot mkivse. it has more dept, sound stage and .... wonderful(all i can say). just wondering, i notice the volume level of the woo is a bit low compare to littledot. i turned about 2 o'clock on the woo but about 12 on the littledot. is that because of the gain switch? i chose high for my can hd650._

 

They are two different topologies. One has nothing to do with the other. Gain of the first stage does account for something but also they are two different amps so where the volume control is doesn't really matter when one is compared to the other.


----------



## yoff

This very morning I have received an EML 274B : it sounds so good that it can sure compete with a Sophia Princess as promissed by *dvb-projekt* in his *Emission Labs EML 274B - Pics and small Review vs. Sophia Princess 274B*. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... the only thing is that there is no "274B" written anywhere on the tube an it is a little bit different from the one shown in the thread : 





 At *Emission Labs* they show 274B and 5U4G-Mesh as well but the pictures are the same . How can one tell the differences from one another ? May be is it only a question of pins configuration .

 ... as I am new to this tube-rolling thing I feel very puzzled !


----------



## jamato8

The 274B draws one less amp for the heater and the pinout is the same. The tubes are the same otherwise.


----------



## yoff

Thank you !

 And what surprises me most with the tube I received is that it does not have mesh-plates but solid-plates (as shown on EML' pictures). It is fantastic anyway !


----------



## kevinvisionm

Does the EML 274B worth upgrade from Sophia? Are there better tubes than 6DE7 that could imporve my Woo6?


----------



## kevinvisionm

Is the EML 274B worth upgrade from Sophia tube? Are there better tubes than the 6DE7 that could improve my woo6? Kevin


----------



## yoff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kevinvisionm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the EML 274B worth upgrade from Sophia tube? ..._

 

For me it is worth it , definitely , with GS 1000 ! 

 Is it worth upgrading from Sophia ? I do not know , it is a very intimate issue considering price , own rig and taste .

 At my level I would say it is more precise , more natural with fantastic soundstage but the Sophia has something special that makes it great .

 Sorry for not being abble to help more for the moment .


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kevinvisionm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the EML 274B worth upgrade from Sophia tube? Are there better tubes than the 6DE7 that could improve my woo6? Kevin_

 

I've got the Sylvania and Raytheon 6EW7s as an alternative to my various 6DE7s. They both seem to offer more detail, resolution and air/space. But... a bit less prominent bass. A nice change of pace from my driving, dynamic, punchy Tung Sol 6DE7s. Though by Sylvania 6DE7s seem to be a blend of the 6EW7s and my 6DE7s.

 Can't tell you about the EML rectifier. Though, its hard to imagine that it could be much better, if at all, than the Sophia Princess. And... at its price, I would think it would need to be somewhat better... unless... you don't mind investing in two expensive tubes.


----------



## jamato8

I still prefer the Sophia, which sometimes makes me wonder if it is preference or something else. Maybe the interaction of my amp, since the power supply in mine is different from most others.


----------



## jamato8

Ok, after not really using the 6 for about a week I turned it on and let it warm up real good. I then listened with my 5U4GB Philco. Not bad and then I plugged in the mesh plate EML 274B. Wow. Sometimes you need to take a break. The sound, silky but open and dynamic. 

 It's all good, just some is a little more gooder.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, after not really using the 6 for about a week I turned it on and let it warm up real good. I then listened with my 5U4GB Philco. Not bad and then I plugged in the mesh plate EML 274B. Wow. Sometimes you need to take a break. The sound, silky but open and dynamic. 

 It's all good, just some is a little more gooder._

 

I think mine is opening up more and more. I guess after the Denon mods I got even bigger sound stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I truly like my WA6 with my custom Denons. What headphones do you use the most?

 Pics:


----------



## sclamb

Right now I am using the GS1000s the most, but I am after the Denon AH-D7000 when they are available in the UK. Just need some good people to buy my K701s and Shanling PH1000


----------



## jamato8

I just added 3 teflon caps to the 6. One each for a bypass on the Mundorf silver/gold oil caps and one on the first power supply cap. I will have to let it all burn in but I have always liked teflon caps. From Russia with love 1989 vintage.


----------



## jamato8

As an update to the teflon caps I have noticed that as they finally break in that the sound has become even more open and fluid. So my first cap in the power supply is bypassed with teflon and my coupling caps, the Mundorf Silver/Gold Oil is bypassed with .022 teflon. I also notice that the highs are even better. There is a more noticeable difference now between the 6 and anything else I have in amps. 

 On well recorded music the soundscape lays down before you that is open and airy with good placement of instruments and voices.

 I have also noticed that the bass has taken on a quality that is nothing short of stunning. It is very tight, like a stretched rubber band but deep and dimensional. I have never heard the Ed. 9 sound so controlled. 

 With this I have been using the EML 274B mesh and older RCA 6DE7 tubes.

 Wow, the sound continues to change and refine. Very, very transparent with the teflon caps. What is odd is that these are .022, which would be best for the high frequencies and can improve speed but the bass has improved as well as dynamics. the bass is very tight and real.


----------



## takezo

*******Caution: jack of wooaudio has let it be known that recents units of the wa6SE
 have differing parts, and may need a change of the cathode caps to make use of alternative
 tubes like the 6FD7 and 6GF7A. make sure your amp has the cathode caps rated at 200v or higher.
 some earlier wa6SE units may have cathode caps rated at 100v only. (change to 200v or higher
 if you want to make use of the 6FD7 and 6GF7A)


 the following rectifiers (input) and dual triodes (output) are compatible and safe to use with
 the woo audio wa6 and wa6SE headphone amps. please feel free to add any other tube types
 that are confirmed compatible, and are not listed below.

 i was concerned about the high "mu" or amplification factor on some of the output tube types but 
 fortunately i've yet to encounter any distortion in SQ nor increase in floor noise. the increase in 
 "mu" definitely gives an increase in dynamics and soundstage. it should help those of you who
 have a relatively low output power source DAC. likewise, if your DAC or CDplayer source has a
 very high power output, you may encounter some noise or distortion with the high "mu" output tubes.
 i use the vda2/vac1 DAC which puts out 2.25 vrms and did not encounter any humming.

 i've been trying out the output tubes for the past 2 months and would've posted them earlier but
 delayed it till i had a chance to receive all of those listed and gave it a good listen. i find them
 more than acceptable and preferable to the 6DE7.

 after about a half a year of using the 6sn7 on the wa6 and the wa6SE i've come to the conclusion
 that the 6sn7 is a superb drive tube with an efficient power section too, at least with class A SET with
 a output transformer. it's quite different than the 6de7 which is a fine dissimilar triode in itself. the
 6sn7 is an equivalent dual triode that seems to present a larger sound-scape or arena without any
 hint of compression nor edginess. the 6sn7 presentation is more refined and has an elegant sound
 that will offend the least whereas the 6de7 is very dynamic with a U-shaped freq. characterisics.
 for 70's/80's rock the 6de7 is great but with classical and small ensemble jazz the 6sn7's refined
 sound hits the spot dead on.

 RECTIFIERS ( RECTIFIER ):
 *these must be at or below 3.0A

 5U4G/ 5U4GA/ 5U4GB/ 5U4WG ( U52, VT-244, 5931 )
 5AR4 ( GZ34 )
 5AS4
 5R4/ GA/ GB/ GY/ GYA/ GYB/ WGA/ WGB ( CV717 )
 5V4G ( GZ32, CV593 )
 5AQ4
 5Y3G/ T
 5Z3 ( with adapter; 4-pin version of 5u4g )
 5Z4G/ T ( GZ30, 52KU, CV1863, CV2748 )
 U50, U54, U88
 53KU
 GZ33
 GZ37 ( CV378 )
 422A
 274A ( with adapter )
 274B *don't use chinese variance with 4.0A



 DUAL TRIODES ( INPUT/OUTPUT ):
 (#) = AMPLIFICATION "MU" FACTOR
 no adapters are needed and these are
 safe for use in wa6 and wa6SE:


 6DE7 (17.5) - Fast transients, good for rock, pop
 6EW7 (17.5) - Softer sound but slightly larger soundstage, good for some jazz, classical

 *******Caution: jack of wooaudio has let it be known that recents units of the wa6SE
 have differing parts, and may need a change of the cathode caps to make use of alternative
 tubes like the 6FD7 and 6GF7A. make sure your amp has the cathode caps rated at 200v or higher.
 some earlier wa6SE units may have cathode caps rated at 100v only. (change to 200v or higher
 if you want to make use of the 6FD7 and 6GF7A)

 6CY7 (68) - between 6de7 and 6ew7
 6DR7 (68) - similar to 6de7 but higher gain
 6FD7 (64) - punchy bass, large soundstage, fast transients

 *update: with homemade adapters one can make use of the following
 dual triodes in the output section. for use in the wa6 and wa6SE.

 *******Caution: jack of wooaudio has let it be known that recents units of the wa6SE
 have differing parts, and may need a change of the cathode caps to make use of alternative
 tubes like the 6FD7 and 6GF7A. make sure your amp has the cathode caps rated at 200v or higher.
 some earlier wa6SE units may have cathode caps rated at 100v only. (change to 200v or higher
 if you want to make use of the 6FD7 and 6GF7A)


 6DA7/A - similar to 6ew7 but hard to find
 6cg7 **** - similar to 6sn7 but sounds bit more faster with less noise, smaller soundstage
 6fq7 **** - same as above
 6gu7 **** - similar to above 
 6gf7/A - higher gain with very fast transients
 6cs7 - similar to 6ew7, good for string instruments
 6sn7 **** - very little distortion, large soundstage, solid bass, refined mids and highs
 7n7 (loktal version of 6sn7) - same as 6sn7
 ecc31 - higher gain, clear sound, less euphonic
 ecc32 - similar to ecc31
 6dn7/6em7/6ea7 - similar to 6sn7 but less refined highs and slightly higher gain
 6bz7 - similar to 6ew7
 6385/2c51/5670 ** - large soundstage, clear highs, slightly higher gain
 6900/5687/7119/7044 - punchy bass, fast transients
 7308/e188cc - very musical with refined mids and highs, slightly soft transients
 6922 /e88cc *** - same as 7308
 6DJ8 /ecc88 *** - same as above with different specs.
 7DJ8/PCC88 *** - same as above with differing heater req. but works with softer transients.
 6N6P *** very natural, open presentation, with slight warmth. equals or betters the 6922.
 ............. slight mid-bass hump present compared to 6dj8 and it's variants. great for bass lovers
 6H30 *** very open presentation and slightly more dynamic than 6N6P


 **this is only for wa6, with or without the pdps 
 (but not a direct substitute for the wa6SE. one way to use them on the wa6SE is to lower the voltage
 to 150v at the anode plates and to raise the resistance to grid at pin 2 to at least 50 ohms to avoid clipping due
 to the high gain nature of the amp and the tube itself. this is an amazing sounding tube that's comparable to
 the 6dj8 family imo. this can be internally in the amp section or in the adapter with use of resistor at pin 1 (anode
 of the power section) and pin 2 (grid of power section).)

 ***(must lower the voltage being supplied to the anode plate to 90v for 6dj8 and 100-130v for 6922/7308
 in both wa6 and wa6SE. cathode resistance must be raised to 5.2k from 3.3k for the wa6SE only, to avoid clipping
 due to high gain.) the 7dj8 has a 7v heater requirement but the 6.3 seems to sufficient as the sound is great.
 the 6N6P and 6H30 can be used directly, with the adapter, without any resistors in the wa6.
 low and high voltages to the anode section works equally well with the 6N6P/6H30 type. 
 applied 22 to 24 mA seems to work well.

 **** the 6SN7 works fine on the wa6 but not so good with the 6SE. However, if you raise the cathode
 resistance from 3.3K to approx. 4.7k,to avoid clipping, it sounds very very fine. i love this tube. you can 
 work with the resistance value to voice the amp to your headphone. playing with the cathode capacitance 
 will further refine the sound to your liking. the 6cg7/6fq7 and 6gu7 is almost as good as some NOS 6sn7.
 it seems to be quieter than the 6sn7 in that there are zero mechanical or microphonic noise.
 if you use black gate capacitors after the rectifier, make sure it's rated at above 200v. ideally it
 should be at 350v. 

 *******Caution: jack of wooaudio has let it be known that recents units of the wa6SE
 have differing parts, and may need a change of the cathode caps to make use of alternative
 tubes like the 6FD7 and 6GF7A. make sure your amp has the cathode caps rated at 200v or higher.
 some earlier wa6SE units may have cathode caps rated at 100v only. (change to 200v or higher
 if you want to make use of the 6FD7 and 6GF7A)


----------



## atbglenn

I thought the 6DE7 and 6EW7 were the only compatible driver/output tubes for the 6 and 6se. Are the others Woo approved? I don't want to shorten the life of my amp if they put more stress on the circuitry.


----------



## jamato8

They shouldn't stress the circuit. There is little reason they would. 

 I wonder about any high frequency roll off. ?


----------



## takezo

no i didn't notice any high frequency roll off... which is a good thing.
 i was afraid the high mu would cause distortion at top or bottom
 but i didn't experience any.

 it shouldn't put any extra stress on the amp/power transformer...
 the output tubes have smaller heater current draw than the 6de7/6ew7
 and both my amps have been fine during the past 7-8 weeks as i've
 been using only the new output types on them.


----------



## jamato8

As I continue to listen to the 6 after installing the .01 teflon bypasses for the first cap in the power supply and for the coupling cap, I have noticed positive changes as in fine detail retrieval and a since of air. 

 The sound is just cleaner with a black background. It has taken a few hundred hours for the teflon to settle and form but it was well worth it for the extra refinement of the sound.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I continue to listen to the 6 after installing the .01 teflon bypasses for the first cap in the power supply and for the coupling cap, I have noticed positive changes as in fine detail retrieval and a since of air. 

 The sound is just cleaner with a black background. It has taken a few hundred hours for the teflon to settle and form but it was well worth it for the extra refinement of the sound._

 

I'm wondering, everytime you change things it gets more detailed, at what point is it too much? "It's so transparent I can see God!"


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm wondering, everytime you change things it gets more detailed, at what point is it too much? "It's so transparent I can see God!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Detailed in a natural musical way, which adds to the micro detail that adds to the air and feeling of space. When an amp gets good enough that these changes can be added, then their presence is noticed in either a good or bad way. In this case it is good. 

 I just finished a hyper pure silver IC for my system. Now for the burn in, which doesn't take too long with the type of silver I use. I have been using a Zu Pivot for some time, which is very nice but having had designed and made my own IC's for years and in the past having sold them, I always wanted to go ahead and make a nice high end one for my system of headphones.

 Oh, could you say high for me? :^)

 edit: oh one area to mod, the input wire. From the RCA's to the attenuator is a long path. The wire used is ok but a silver plated copper, which isn't my favorite. Pure silver, dead soft, for me. That will be next up.


 My Mini to RCA of high purity silver, teflon and cheap Radio Shack RCA's. Yep, Radio Shack. I love the looks of some of the high end RCA's and have used them but the Rat Shack ones are actually very good. The material is nonmagnetic and the tips are hollow so you are just working with surface area. I don't like nickel plating but it is on most of even the high end connectors unless you get some Vampire (it appears more and more are going with gold flashed over copper) with gold flashing over copper but many Vampire items have magnetic pieces, go figure.






 After only 6 hours of use I can't believe what an improvement these are over an already very good IC for mini to RCA of the Zu. I guess I should continue to stick to my own design.


----------



## takezo

john, good to hear the by-pass is working out for you. i don't think
 i'll do it on mine just yet, as the v-caps are pretty darn good
 in the highs already. and having two path can lead to smearing
 more often than not, no? is the 10% rule recommended? or are
 you experimenting with various farad values?

 i guess i may try it on the mundorf or jensen next time i swap
 those in but i'm not sure if by-passing is recommended for paper
 in oil types... what's your take?


----------



## jamato8

There is the rule of 10 but also the rule of the ear. I normally go with 10X or 100X but also experiment and listen. There is no smearing of the frequencies but I am not sure there is any need to bypass the v-cap but it is always an interesting try. 

 Black Gates do best with BG bypassing only, not with other brands. 

 Paper and oil and do great with bypassing. A P&O with a teflon bypass can be very good.


----------



## takezo

good to know. i'll try experimenting with the pio caps when i swap
 them in. they sound amazing in the mids, very tubey with smooth
 hazy mids, but they are definitely less extended than teflon...
 thanks for the insight john and happy holidays!


----------



## jamato8

Wow, I can really hear the bass impact and transparency difference with my silver IC. It is funny using 4 dollar RCA's with silver wire that is often used on IC's costing a few hundred dollars, though they are overpriced. I used a special 4 plat braiding technique. I used to be a braider years ago of horse tack and braided up to 24 plat in both rawhide and leather. Seems like another lifetime.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, I can really hear the bass impact and transparency difference with my silver IC. It is funny using 4 dollar RCA's with silver wire that is often used on IC's costing a few hundred dollars, though they are overpriced. I used a special 4 plat braiding technique. I used to be a braider years ago of horse tack and braided up to 24 plat in both rawhide and leather. Seems like another lifetime._

 

I agree cables are important. A few years ago I didn't, but with the resolution of my current sources, amps and phones it is impossible to deny now.

 One of the tricks with home built silver IC is to use a teflon sleeve that is a bit larger than the solid dead soft silver wire that runs inside of it, so it acts more like a teflon air-tube dielectric and imparts less "flavor" on the sound. mmwhats makes some very nice silver cables, but his best ones are the 7-strand RCA or the 9-strand XLR (called Lucky Seven) which can match the anti-cables that use an "air-dielectric" and no sleeve, but at 2/3 the cost. 

 My ALO SXC mini-RCA is the best cable I have ever "not heard" as it seems to impart nothing of it's own to the sound (unlike a Jenna Labs wire), and just lets the full body of the music through. I also love my SXC XLR cables, and they also beat my anticables and mmwhats silver XLR cables by a small margin, but it is there.


----------



## jamato8

Yes, the air dieletric is the best way to go. I used to make and sell IC's and advertised in Stereophile. I always used teflon tubing and hyper pure silver. No one was using dead soft silver until in my research I discovered that it was the best way to go. Now I see people advertise dead soft silver. That was almost 18 years ago. Anyway, silver done right is great if not, it can be bright and harsh, which is why it had a bad reputation for some time. Part of the problem with insulated silver wire is once the insulation is applied, not only the dielectric interface is going on but the heat of applying it changes the wire. With tubing, obviously, there is no change. After 18 years, my first IC's, still show no discoloration. 

 Silver also has the lowest resistance with copper and then gold at third. Silver transformers (output) are incredible but just a bit expensive. I would like to have some made for the Woo 6. 

 I also noticed a manufacture of a well received cable here on Headfi, advertises that their copper wire is silver plated so that the copper would not discolor. The main reason is for the oxidation, which unlike silver that is still a good conductor, becomes a real problem and has many negative effects, especially on sound. I do not like copper plated with silver as you have two different types of conductors with different resistances and the sound, to me, is bright and not as good as either one alone.


----------



## KZEE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree cables are important. A few years ago I didn't, but with the resolution of my current sources, amps and phones it is impossible to deny now._

 

I don't mean to go off topic, but your experiences with cables confirms something that I've observed with the folks that don't hear differences in cables and what-not... their systems are almost always low-rez (not that there's anything wrong with that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and they're just not going to very easily hear cable differences in low-rez systems. 
 But what's hilarious is how militant they become in claiming that because different cables don't have an affect on the sound of their systems, then different cables can't possibly have an affect the sound of your system. Skepticism is good, but one needs to have all the facts before belittling someone else for hearing things that you don't.


----------



## KZEE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No one was using dead soft silver until in my research I discovered that it was the best way to go._

 

Hi John, 
 Not everyone agrees that silver is the best way to go... I find that although silver imparts a certain magic to the midrange, ultimately to my ears silver sounds closed in and rolled off on the top end, and thus I much prefer non-stranded solid core copper for my cabling.
 Just my 2 pence worth. :>)


----------



## jamato8

It depends upon gauge used, and shape. I used for years, a special flat silver wire that had all the high frequency you could want. Again, you don't need as large a gauge in silver. It is all in balance.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KZEE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi John, 
 Not everyone agrees that silver is the best way to go... I find that although silver imparts a certain magic to the midrange, ultimately to my ears silver sounds closed in and rolled off on the top end, and thus I much prefer non-stranded solid core copper for my cabling.
 Just my 2 pence worth. :>)_

 

Materials, design and type of braid can make a difference though. For instance, the "mmwhats" built silver cables do roll off on the top end if you have the 3-strand simple braid, but his 7-strand and 9-strand versions with a different braid have no roll off vs the 3-strand.


----------



## KZEE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It depends upon gauge used, and shape. I used for years, a special flat silver wire that had all the high frequency you could want. Again, you don't need as large a gauge in silver. It is all in balance._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Materials, design and type of braid can make a difference though. For instance, the "mmwhats" built silver cables do roll off on the top end if you have the 3-strand simple braid, but his 7-strand and 9-strand versions with a different braid have no roll off vs the 3-strand._

 

Gauge and shape, materials, design, type of braid - oy, how many different differently constructed cables will I have to buy (at mucho $ a pop) in order to get the sound that I'm after?! 
 No thanks... I really like the sound of solid core copper - it's consistent from cable to cable - and it's quite a bit cheaper than silver to boot.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KZEE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gauge and shape, materials, design, type of braid - oy, how many different differently constructed cables will I have to buy (at mucho $ a pop) in order to get the sound that I'm after?! 
 No thanks... I really like the sound of solid core copper - it's consistent from cable to cable - and it's quite a bit cheaper than silver to boot._

 

Oh there is no mystery. I worked out the braid and gauge a long time ago and that is why the cables I made and sold were successful. Copper is great also. I

 It's all good.

 edit: my cables I just made after 24 hours of burn-in have started to sound really crappy. lol such is the process. They sound all scrambled. Too much detail and lacking in warmth.


----------



## Brighten

jamato8, HeadphoneAddict (and anyone else with the stepped attenuator upgrade)-

 Looking at some various Woo amps, does the "stepped attenuator" produce a substantial gain in sound quality?

 I read up what stepped attenuators did last night and unfortunately didn't progress too far in my understanding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would appreciate the help with an "english" description of what it does exactly and how it effects the output of the amp. 

 Thanks!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Hey Brighten,

 Pics of the surf lessons on real waves are up - they've only surfed the web about 3x since Xmas Eve... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The stepped attenuators are supposed to have a more transparent effect on the sound, as you are using a higher quality circuit for the sound to pass through. I still plan to upgrade to a Goldpoint like jamato8 one of these days, but the stock attenuator hasn't been bad. I still wonder if my standard attenuator is why a stock WA6 without max, PDPSU or Sophia is 90% of my maxed with all the upgrades except attenuator.


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Brighten,

 Pics of the surf lessons on real waves are up - they've only surfed the web about 3x since Xmas Eve... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The stepped attenuators are supposed to have a more transparent effect on the sound, as you are using a higher quality circuit for the sound to pass through. I still plan to upgrade to a Goldpoint like jamato8 one of these days, but the stock attenuator hasn't been bad. I still wonder if my standard attenuator is why a stock WA6 without max, PDPSU or Sophia is 90% of my maxed with all the upgrades except attenuator._

 

Thanks Larry, that stock Woo certainly is a bargain for the performance ratio though.


----------



## jamato8

It isn't a huge jump and I don't think any attenuator is unless the stock one is just of poor quality but it does further refine the sound. Since the signal goes through these resistors, they are important. The stock attenuator is a conductive plastic type, which isn't bad but high quality individual resistors are better. You also don't have the contacts that wear out but that does take a long time. 

 I prefer the Goldpoint to the DACT (they coppied Goldpoint and continue to) and the GP is less expensive but uses the same switch (they used this switch first).


----------



## Brighten

Thanks jamato8


----------



## jamato8

It has taken some time but the teflon bypass caps on the coupling caps and the first power supply cap are broken in now. The transparency refined and in general the sound is the best I have heard.


----------



## 2wheels4me

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have kept him abreast of what I have done and the changes. All you have to do is mention the pseudo dual power supply and he will know. Also the 470uf cathode bypass caps._

 

Jam et al: Sorry for my lack of understanding the circuit topology, but by all of your subsequent experience, and assuming Jack would do all the work, is this still the way to go? You guys have done plenty else, but if I were to have one made with the PDPS and with Jack's recommended (site-listed) upgrades I would ask for the 220 ufs to be replaced with the 470 caps? Would he agree to this? Any latest opinions on the DACT attenuator? Known to sound better than the Alps? I know Jam likes the Goldpoint, but Jack probably wouldn't do that one. Is the 2dB stepping of the DACT perhaps an issue? The Sophia sounds like a "must."


----------



## jamato8

If you are going with the upgraded caps but most are good. The DACT is better than the standard volume control. On the Gold Point I have never found that the stepping is an issue but I don't know how close this is to the DACT. On the one DACT I had that I used on a preamp I had to get their modification kit that contained really little SMD resistors the change the initial steps to smaller ones. 

 The pseudo dual power supply is the must and then better coupling caps.


----------



## pinkpanther

I just received my WA6 w/ the Pseudo Dual Power Supply, and the Sophia Princess upgrade everything else in the amp is stock. I didn't read this thread before placing my order, should I (or can I) send back my unit for upgrades? Will there be a huge improvement in sound? Also, does burn in really make the sound better? I'm using the 6 with Grado GS1000s, and I want to get the best sound possible. Thanks!


----------



## jamato8

Sure burn in is needed. At least 100 hours but enjoy it the whole time. I think you got the main good upgrades. The only other thing would be the attenuator.


----------



## 2wheels4me

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure burn in is needed. At least 100 hours but enjoy it the whole time. I think you got the main good upgrades. The only other thing would be the attenuator._

 

Jam, speaking of burn-in, I saw in another thread your mention of the Sophia Princess darkening in color - has yours held up sound-wise? Are you driving it harder or less hard than Jack's maxed PDPS setup? Thanks to your recommendations, I am expecting a maxed PDPS with Sophia in a couple of weeks.


----------



## sclamb

Well, the Sophia does physically darken in colour as the silvering on the tube does seem to grow over time.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the Sophia does physically darken in colour as the silvering on the tube does seem to grow over time._

 

How dark will it get lets say in a 1000 hours or so, does anyone know? Will it just keep getting darker and darker till you cant see into the tube anymore?


----------



## 2wheels4me

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never had a tube make as many changes during burn-in as this Sophia Princess. 

 Now with 42 hours on it the bass on my Edition 9 is totally different on my WA6 vs new with ZERo hours, being tight and controlled vs loose and flabby at first. The treble has always been nice with this tube, and better than my Bugle Boy or Philips metal base GZ34. The lower mids were too forward at ZERO hours and are now opening up nicely, and soundstage is already matching my Single POwer Square Wave XL balanced. 

 For the first time, my Edition 9 via WA6 sound better than my Balanced SR-325i. And, for the first time I think I may actually like the Edition 9 on the WA6 better than on the Single Power Sq Wave XL, as they seem slightly more alive and vibrant, with more powerful but controlled bass. The Sq Wave is very good with these headphones, and makes them more neutral and accurate I think, while the WA6 still has them colored but in a good way.

 I still have 58 more hours to reach the Sophia recommended burn-in of 100 hours, so we'll see if this holds up. If it stays like this or gets better (not worse) I will be thrilled, and can whole heartedly recommend the WA6 maxed with PDPS for running Edition 9 headphones. And, it still sounds great with my RS-1 and HD600!_

 

Did your Princess also darken a lot? More importantly, has the SQ held up? Mine is coming soon (thanks to you guys), and I want to make sure that the Sophia's expense is justified with long-lasting SQ. Thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2wheels4me* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did your Princess also darken a lot? More importantly, has the SQ held up? Mine is coming soon (thanks to you guys), and I want to make sure that the Sophia's expense is justified with long-lasting SQ. Thanks_

 

Mine is still clear and sounds as good as ever. No worries mate!


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How dark will it get lets say in a 1000 hours or so, does anyone know? Will it just keep getting darker and darker till you cant see into the tube anymore?_

 

The bottom get silvered but you will still see the tube in all its glory


----------



## Brighten

Jamato8, in your opinion, which is the better of the two, the caps upgrade or the attenuator?


----------



## jamato8

The attenuator adds the extra bit of refinement and transparency and so do the caps. Hard to say but I guess a slight edge to the caps.


----------



## WittyzTH

Is that really hard to try to mod the amp? 

 I'm completely noobie for DIY, but this thread really drive me crazy of modding the WA6.


----------



## danmagicman7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WittyzTH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that really hard to try to mod the amp? 

 I'm completely noobie for DIY, but this thread really drive me crazy of modding the WA6. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Most DIY mods just take patience and knowing what to connect to what.

 If you're really uncomfortable with a soldering iron, try making a CMOY amp to get some practice on something cheap. Really the worse thing you can do (besides hooking something up wrong) is put too much solder on a joint and cause a crossjoint with something else.

 Researching what you do before you do it and taking your time will ensure success. After you get the hang of it, the less research you need to do.


----------



## WittyzTH

Thanks for recommendation. I ever did only modding my headphone such as reterminating and recabling. 

 From what I read through this thread, it may possible to done some of mod myself. and I guess the WA6SE has more room to be modded. So it may easier for me to mod it.


----------



## jantze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WittyzTH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that really hard to try to mod the amp?_

 

No if you have the equipment. You could allways borrow the needed tools.


----------



## peanuthead

What's a more significant upgrade in terms of overall sound quality for the WA6: Sophia Princess rectifier or PDPS upgrade?

 Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's a more significant upgrade in terms of overall sound quality for the WA6: Sophia Princess rectifier or PDPS upgrade?

 Thanks._

 

Hmmm... Probably the Sophia in my case. Before the Sophia (and after the PDPS) the WA6 was even better with RS-1 and HD-600 but still (1) had a narrower soundstage than Zana Deux and Melosslightly, (2) was still slightly sloppy with my re-cabled woodied D2000 and (3) it was still way too dark and muddy with Edition 9 to the point of being unusable. The Sophia made a big improvement in soundstage and refinement and tight control over the Denon and Edition 9 with good frequency balance.


----------



## dannie01

Since I spent few days to gone through all 56 pages of this thread and others about the WA6/ Max, WA6 SE/ Max. Got poisoned and finally order my WA6SE on 7 Jan with addition SP 274B and 2 pairs 6EW7 from Jack.

 Also, I've bid the following in ebay within today,

 Mullard GZ 30 Brown Base CV 2748 (NOS) x 1
 RCA 5V4G (NOS) x 1
 Sylvania 5U4GB (NOS) x 1

 But I found it's really hard to find some good 6DE7 or 6EW7 through ebay, I would like to get some.

 And I need help from experts here like Jamato8/ takezo and others. I 'm quite sure I'm skillful to use a solder iron but an idiot about tube amp. I saw Jack offers the Premium parts upgrade package for $450 (too much for me in the meanwhile) with the following, so I wondering to do the mod by myself,

 Blackgate voltage filter caps, 150uf/350V 
 Blackgate bypass caps, 220uf/16V 
 Blackgate bypass caps, 22uf/350V 
 MILLS voltage filter resistor, 3.3K/12W 
 KIWAME load resistor, 56K/2W 
 KIWAME resistor, 1K/2W 

 My question is, all the above up-grade parts are already soldered in the WA6SE by other brand/s in same value (or, I just wait my WA6SE arrive and check ), I can just source the parts and replace it all is fine or they have different value in the modding? 

 BTW, I have a SENN HD650 and JVC HP-DX1000.

 Thanks in advance for all of you.

 Cheers,
 Danny


----------



## takezo

hi danny,

 you should wait to see what's inside your stock wa6SE.
 the blackgates are verygood but not essential... i'd save the
 money and just upgrade several areas like the bypass caps (220uf/16v),
 bypass resistors and resistors between pins 2 and 6 with 0.5 
 watt carbon resistors. you can always change the values by
 going up but don't go down, especially with the voltage of the
 caps. (except the bypass where it should be fine to go to 6.3v
 instead of 16v. i get only 2+v thru the bypass section)

 for the power filter caps 150uf is insufficient imo... you may want
 to go parallel to get near 300uf... but that'll just add to your
 budget. jamato recommended panasonic as being very good filtering
 caps. or i'd just ask jack what he'd recommend for you to use in place
 of the blackgates. good luck.

 *the 6de7 and 6ew7 and not in high demand, which is probably why
 it's not seen on eebay alot... ask website tube dealers for them and
 more often than not, they'll have hundreds in stock for $3 to $5 each...
 i got most of my output tubes at vacuumtubes.net


----------



## dannie01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi danny,

 you should wait to see what's inside your stock wa6SE.
 the blackgates are verygood but not essential... i'd save the
 money and just upgrade several areas like the bypass caps (220uf/16v),
 bypass resistors and resistors between pins 2 and 6 with 0.5 
 watt carbon resistors. you can always change the values by
 going up but don't go down, especially with the voltage of the
 caps. (except the bypass where it should be fine to go to 6.3v
 instead of 16v. i get only 2+v thru the bypass section)

 for the power filter caps 150uf is insufficient imo... you may want
 to go parallel to get near 300uf... but that'll just add to your
 budget. jamato recommended panasonic as being very good filtering
 caps. or i'd just ask jack what he'd recommend for you to use in place
 of the blackgates. good luck.

 *the 6de7 and 6ew7 and not in high demand, which is probably why
 it's not seen on eebay alot... ask website tube dealers for them and
 more often than not, they'll have hundreds in stock for $3 to $5 each...
 i got most of my output tubes at vacuumtubes.net_

 

Hi takezo,

 Thanks so much for your advice. I will wait until my unit arrive and let see what's inside before doing any mod. For the carbon resistors, which brand/s you recommend?

 Cheers,
 Danny


----------



## sclamb

A quick piece of advice please if anyone would be so kind.

 I have been speaking to Jack because the driver tube socket in the right channel on my WA6SE is not holding the tube tightly (it wiggles quite freely whereas the left socket is very firm and does not allow the tube to wiggle) and I am getting some crackling sounds and tube rush sounds every now and then. The sounds go if I wiggle the tube slightly.

 Jack has suggested that I use a needle and close up the springs inside the tube socket, and I sent him an email as I was concerned about getting an electric shock due to residual power left in the amp after unplugging it from the mains. I asked Jack how to drain the amp and he suggested the following:

 "If you wish to “drain” the remaining current, play music then switch off the amp until music is gone. You don’t need to open the amp, just do that from the outside (the video is for demonstration purpose)"

 The video refers to one Jack sent me showing how the close up the springs in the socket.

 Although I am sure Jack is correct, I would like to get more opinions from the experts here before I stick a needle into the socket and risk getting what could be a fatal shock. Will Jack's suggested way drain all the current and make the sockets safe? Is there any way of testing to ensure that all the current is drained from the amp and sockets? Is this sort of tool useful/necessary to test things:

http://www.pat-services.co.uk/voltag...tester-674.htm

 Thanks.

 Simon


----------



## xenithon

Brief question on behalf of a friend: looking at the stock WA6, with one (trying for two but may need to limit it to one) of the following:
 - PDPS mod
 - V Cap input coupling cap upgrade
 - Sophia 274B rectifier

 Which do you think would be the better option, specifically for overall performance improvement and flexibility?


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Although I am sure Jack is correct, I would like to get more opinions from the experts here before I stick a needle into the socket and risk getting what could be a fatal shock. Will Jack's suggested way drain all the current and make the sockets safe? Is there any way of testing to ensure that all the current is drained from the amp and sockets? Is this sort of tool useful/necessary to test things..._

 

yes, it's a very safe way to make sure all the caps are drained. if you're still
 unsure, leave the amp off for several hours, use an electrically insulated glove
 or take it in to a specialist. one piece of advise: try not to twist and turn the
 tubes excessively when pulling them out of the socket. this is why the socket
 becomes loose. it's difficult, but try to pull the tube straight out with minimal
 twisting and gyrating.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, it's a very safe way to make sure all the caps are drained. if you're still
 unsure, leave the amp off for several hours, use an electrically insulated glove
 or take it in to a specialist. one piece of advise: try not to twist and turn the
 tubes excessively when pulling them out of the socket. this is why the socket
 becomes loose. it's difficult, but try to pull the tube straight out with minimal
 twisting and gyrating._

 

Thanks! I think twisting the tube a bit is what may have caused this, although the right channel socket was always looser than the left one.

 What does leaving the amp off for a few hours do after draining the current? Should I leave the phones connected or just leave it to sit? I suppose using something plastic or wooden (such as a toothpick) rather than something metallic would avoid shocks too.

 Simon


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! I think twisting the tube a bit is what may have caused this, although the right channel socket was always looser than the left one.

 What does leaving the amp off for a few hours do after draining the current? Should I leave the phones connected or just leave it to sit? I suppose using something plastic or wooden (such as a toothpick) rather than something metallic would avoid shocks too.

 Simon_

 

leaving it off will drain any residual current left in the capacitors. the longer
 you leave the amp off, the safer it is to work on it. just unplug the power cord
 and disconnect everything from the amp.


----------



## sclamb

Thanks again. I will try tonight


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Also, people say to leave one hand in your pocket when you are still worried that it is not drained, so you can't ground your hands and have a deadly current pass across your chest.


----------



## sclamb

Oh, I was feeling confident up to that point! Is there no way to test the socket to see if there is current there?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, I was feeling confident up to that point! Is there no way to test the socket to see if there is current there?_

 

That was meant to reassure you that if you didn't believe them you could leave a hand in your pocket. Not to scare you.


----------



## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was meant to reassure you that if you didn't believe them you could leave a hand in your pocket. Not to scare you._

 

That's OK, it's all good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for your advice, it was appreciated, and I did put my hand in my pocket just in case.

 I have now adjusted the socket springs and the tube is a lot tighter, and I didn't hear any crackling or tube rush on start-up. I hope that is now fixed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Simon


----------



## Brighten

jamato8-

 Any clue to what kind of transformer the WA6 uses?


----------



## peanuthead

Does anyone know if the WA6 PDPS mod actually increases the power ouput of the amp? Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jamato8-

 Any clue to what kind of transformer the WA6 uses?_

 

It is a toroid for the power supply but who makes it I don't know. For the output transformers I don't know.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know if the WA6 PDPS mod actually increases the power ouput of the amp? Thanks._

 

I don't think that the measured power would be increased but the perceived does as you have a much better supply to each tube and therefore you have better dynamics due to the reserve for each tube being increased substantially. This would help with louder passages and clipping would be less of a problem but the volume from my 6 is more than enough, even on demanding passages.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think that the measured power would be increased but the perceived does as you have a much better supply to each tube and therefore you have better dynamics due to the reserve for each tube being increased substantially. This would help with louder passages and clipping would be less of a problem but the volume from my 6 is more than enough, even on demanding passages._

 

Thanks!


----------



## Brighten

Anybody know where to get a pair of RCA 6DE7s?


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know where to get a pair of RCA 6DE7s?_

 


 eBay


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Orcin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_eBay_

 

The only current auction doesn't look too reliable. I was thinking of a more reliable source.


----------



## Brighten

Jamato8, I was thinking of adding pre-amp outputs to the Woo Audio WA6. Do you think this could negatively effect the headphone section of the amp?


----------



## WittyzTH

Is the maxxed upgrade really worth for $450? If not, what is the budget upgrade I should ask Jack to put/change in my WA6SE to make it sound better?


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WittyzTH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the maxxed upgrade really worth for $450? If not, what is the budget upgrade I should ask Jack to put/change in my WA6SE to make it sound better?_

 

Many say that the Sophia Princess rectifier tube has the biggest impact on the sound.


----------



## WittyzTH

couldn't agree more about the Princess. It sounds really great. but I still want other more best-bang-for-bucks upgrade.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know where to get a pair of RCA 6DE7s?_

 

Woo Audio sells them for $17/pair.


----------



## atbglenn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think that the measured power would be increased but the perceived does as you have a much better supply to each tube and therefore you have better dynamics due to the reserve for each tube being increased substantially. This would help with louder passages and clipping would be less of a problem but the volume from my 6 is more than enough, even on demanding passages._

 

I realize that the RMS power would not be increased, but would it be fair to assume the dynamic or peak power would be substantially increased? It sure seems like it.


----------



## Skylab

I tried a Sophia Princess Mesh-plate 274B in my CSP-2 recently - I was very impressed - it sounded great. Best current-production tube I have ever heard.


----------



## dannie01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi danny,

 you should wait to see what's inside your stock wa6SE.
 the blackgates are verygood but not essential... i'd save the
 money and just upgrade several areas like the bypass caps (220uf/16v),
 bypass resistors and resistors between pins 2 and 6 with 0.5 
 watt carbon resistors. you can always change the values by
 going up but don't go down, especially with the voltage of the
 caps. (except the bypass where it should be fine to go to 6.3v
 instead of 16v. i get only 2+v thru the bypass section)

 for the power filter caps 150uf is insufficient imo... you may want
 to go parallel to get near 300uf... but that'll just add to your
 budget. jamato recommended panasonic as being very good filtering
 caps. or i'd just ask jack what he'd recommend for you to use in place
 of the blackgates. good luck.

 *the 6de7 and 6ew7 and not in high demand, which is probably why
 it's not seen on eebay alot... ask website tube dealers for them and
 more often than not, they'll have hundreds in stock for $3 to $5 each...
 i got most of my output tubes at vacuumtubes.net_

 

Hi jamato8/ takezo,

 I think I need to bring this up again to ask for some advise in the mod. I have my 6SE mod as mentioned in a thread somewhere i don't remember. The PSU of my 6Se, I've replaced 2 BG VK 150uf/350V and now a BG Heart of Muse 100uf + 100uf/500V (one of my friend told me this big cap is even perform better than NH). I don't notice much changes in sound when I swapped into the Heart of Muse (I have it with about 100+ hrs of burn-in and I know it's still early to make a conclusion), just a bit lighter of bass impact. As you've mentioned above, for the power filtering caps in the PSU, you would suggest to parallel by 2 x 150uf to make it 300uf (because 150uf is insufficient, why?), what make the different between this change, would it be more powerful or impact in the bass level because I thought the bass is very good in a K701 and is it a good move to swap it into 300uf.

 This is the LINK of the pics of my modded 6SE. I would be appreciated for an avdise.

 Thanks
 Danny


----------



## takezo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dannie01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi jamato8/ takezo,

 I think I need to bring this up again to ask for some advise in the mod. I have my 6SE mod as mentioned in a thread somewhere i don't remember. The PSU of my 6Se, I've replaced 2 BG VK 150uf/350V and now a BG Heart of Muse 100uf + 100uf/500V (one of my friend told me this big cap is even perform better than NH). I don't notice much changes in sound when I swapped into the Heart of Muse (I have it with about 100+ hrs of burn-in and I know it's still early to make a conclusion), just a bit lighter of bass impact. As you've mentioned above, for the power filtering caps in the PSU, you would suggest to parallel by 2 x 150uf to make it 300uf (because 150uf is insufficient, why?), what make the different between this change, would it be more powerful or impact in the bass level because I thought the bass is very good in a K701 and is it a good move to swap it into 300uf.

 This is the LINK of the pics of my modded 6SE. I would be appreciated for an avdise.

 Thanks
 Danny_

 

you shouldn't try to influence the bass quality with power filtering caps... not directly...
 it's more for filtering out noise and ripple currents... more/better filtering equals overall
 better SQ... for bass impact the input/coupling caps will influence how low the freq. will go
 and it's quality. but the wa6SE doesn't utilize an input or coupling cap. it's directly coupled 
 giving the best bass quality the amp can muster. (input caps can roll off the bass or highs 
 depending on its farad values) but really, let the blackgate caps burn in for at least
 700 hrs. before you start modifying it. good luck.


----------



## dannie01

Thanks takezo, I'll take your advise and let see what will it sound after 700hrs reached. BTW, it sounds very nice in the moment and the BGs work wonderful with the 6SE.


----------



## takezo

to danny and others interested,

 adjusting the cathode resistance seems to really influence the bass quality more than
 any other tweaks or upgrades. the 6SE has 3.3k ohms at the cathode on pin 9 but raising
 the value up tightens the bass considerably. i think this also allows for impedance matching
 to the headphone you would like to voice the amp for.

 and it will also have direct ties to the gain of your amp. higher cathode resistance = less gain
 and vice-versa. small variance does not affect tonal qualities but larger changes will shift the
 tonal balance.


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yoff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you !

 And what surprises me most with the tube I received is that it does not have mesh-plates but solid-plates (as shown on EML' pictures). It is fantastic anyway !_

 

Yes I found the EML 274B solid plate to be very good, right out of the box. Much better than the SP 274B mesh want to be that was in my WA6SE maxxed. 

 However I did send my solid plate back for a EML 274B mesh plate. 
 At first for about 6 hours I was rather disappointed in the mesh plate version compared to the solid plate version. But after about 15 hours using the EML 274B mesh plate it seems to be getting closer to the EML 274B solid plate. 

 After reading some of jamato8 post, I can understand why It is pointless to ask him. Because of all the mods he has done to his Woo. 

 ss


----------



## regal

I have a few questions about the topology of the Woo 6. I posted in the other thread but believe those in this thread know more about whats inside.


 1. There is mention of upgrading coupling caps. An SET amp doesn't have coupling caps, thats the point of using an air gapped for DC transformer.

 2. So does this mean that the Woo 6 is using OPT's that can't pass DC and they are using coupling caps to block the DC?

 3. Or are these coupling caps actually interstage caps between each section of the output tube?

 4. Wouldn't it be possible to DC couple the two output stages with the right bias?

 Confused.


----------



## takezo

it's #3. interstage coupling caps. the wa6 implements this, but the wa6SE is direct coupled
 and provides dc bias from one stage to the other.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's #3. interstage coupling caps. the wa6 implements this, but the wa6SE is direct coupled
 and provides dc bias from one stage to the other._

 


 Should be possible to upgrade the WA6 to direct coupled I would think.


----------



## takezo

yes, i would think so. of course, the SE also benefits from chokes and a beefier transformer, thanks to a separate ps chassis/space.


----------



## regal

Does anyone have a basic schematic to I could look up the tube curves and find out how to bias for a DC coupling ? Would be worth saving $500 vs the SE.

 Debating on buying the WA6 or building this:







 I've built a few OTL and hybrid tube amps but never an SET, it almost doesn't pay to build when Woo sells them for less than you can buy parts. I just wish I knew more about the OPT's used on the WA6.


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## takezo

ask jack of wooaudio. i doubt anyone's drawn up a full schematic for the woo amps... the opt are hand-wound and made by wooaudio.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ask jack of wooaudio. i doubt anyone's drawn up a full schematic for the woo amps... the opt are hand-wound and made by wooaudio._

 

I would also say wait for Jamato8 to reply or PM him asking him to post here.


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## sillysally

My power/drive tube sockets are about 1/32th of a inch from being flush with the top of the steel plate the sockets are attached too. About the same width of the steel plate. So my big bottle tubes will not go flush with the top of the sockets. 
 Is there any problem with this.

 ss


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## atbglenn

There is absolutely no problem as long as the tubes feel snug in the sockets. My 6FD7's don't sit flush either in my WA6


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## Henerenry

Is the teflon upgrade worthwhile or not?


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## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Henerenry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the teflon upgrade worthwhile or not?_

 

It won't make the amp sound better, but it makes it easier to tube roll. The regular sockets require more effort and some rocking motion to plug/unplug the tubes, whereas teflon sockets require less force and do not require rocking motion.


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## Seamaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It won't make the amp sound better, but it makes it easier to tube roll. The regular sockets require more effort and some rocking motion to plug/unplug the tubes, whereas teflon sockets require less force and do not require rocking motion._

 

It depends on tubes. some tubes are hard to get out. Make sure pins are clean and well lubed with Deoxit Gold. Teflon and ceranmic sockets are very nice, they last longer.


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## jamato8

There is no reason a Teflon or ceramic tube socket will last longer. It is the contacts that may lose their tension and they can be retensioned. I have sockets from the 1920's that have been heavily used and are still fine and they are not ceramic or teflon (which wasn't around then :^).. .)


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## h.rav

The newer WA6SE has tube sockets which have multiple pin contact area like the teflon sockets. I don't see any reason to choose teflon over stock sockets.


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## dannie01

WOW, that new tube socket looks much nicer and seems stronger than the one used in my 6SE.


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no reason a Teflon or ceramic tube socket will last longer. It is the contacts that may lose their tension and they can be retensioned. I have sockets from the 1920's that have been heavily used and are still fine and they are not ceramic or teflon (which wasn't around then :^).. .)_

 


 Jam do you know where I can get my hands on a tool (or DIY instructions for one) to retention the sockets for a standard 8 pin octal ? The original tubes that came with this dual mono EL34 (4 per channel) based amp I have had fatter pins than the SED Winged C El34's I now use. They are snug but loose if you know what I mean. Replacing all 8 octal sockets will have to be done eventually but there is still plenty of life left in the current ones. 

 I looked around for such a tool but came up empty at my usual parts haunts.

 Peete.


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## nautilus983

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Meh, until my 6 warms up, meh. 

 It took 6 hours today. That is ok with me as the sound is great now but until everything settles., . . a big Meh. . 

 I think it is because of all the caps I use and some feel, and I have noticed this, that the materials the Black Gates are made of require time to form after being turned off. I know Audio Note UK believes they have to reform if turned off and they try and use them where equipment will not be turned off, as in their 60,000 dollar amp, etc.

 I believe that if I took my amp to a meet unless on for some time, as in 6 hours or more, it would be questioned as to how good it was or did I know what I was talking about._

 

hmmm this is not good. I'm planning on ordering the wa 6se and was planning on getting the premium parts upgrade too, but I can't afford to let the amplifier warm up for 6 hours before it sounds great.

 I want it to sound good after 1 hour or so after I turn it on.. I guess that I should not get the parts upgrade then?


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## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nautilus983* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmmm this is not good. I'm planning on ordering the wa 6se and was planning on getting the premium parts upgrade too, but I can't afford to let the amplifier warm up for 6 hours before it sounds great.

 I want it to sound good after 1 hour or so after I turn it on.. I guess that I should not get the parts upgrade then?_

 

Don't worry about it. jamato8 has a very heavily mod DYI WA6.
 After a few minutes of warm up you should be ready to go, at least that's all the time my WA6SE max takes. 

 However your new WA6SE max will take a few hundred hours to really reach the sweet point and start to stabilize. But after about 50 hours it will start to sound very nice.

 ss


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## Suprfly2k

What sillysally said...

 I have a modded 6SE and it sounds phat after a couple of minutes. I actually don't notice a difference between 10 minutes warm-up and three hours. YMMV

 Hmmm...I need to spend some time with my just arrived Marvin Gaye "What's Going On" LP today...


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## nautilus983

Thanks ss and suprfly, I guess that I'll go for the upgraded parts then


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## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sillysally* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't worry about it. jamato8 has a very heavily mod DYI WA6.
 After a few minutes of warm up you should be ready to go, at least that's all the time my WA6SE max takes. 

 However your new WA6SE max will take a few hundred hours to really reach the sweet point and start to stabilize. But after about 50 hours it will start to sound very nice.

 ss_

 

My WA6SE always sounds great... though... I usually allow it to warm up for at least 10 minutes... before listening through it. 

 But... it sounds much better... after its warmed up for a couple of hours, or so - much more detailed, with a more open, airy, 3D sound stage.

 I've only got about 150+ playing hours on it - so, it may be much more stable after a lot more burn in (with less variation in its sound as it warms up).


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## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My WA6SE always sounds great... though... I usually allow it to warm up for at least 10 minutes... before listening through it. 

 But... it sounds much better... after its warmed up for a couple of hours, or so - much more detailed, with a more open, airy, 3D sound stage.

 I've only got about 150+ playing hours on it - so, it may be much more stable after a lot more burn in (with less variation in its sound as it warms up)._

 

Yes your WA6SE will continue to stabilize until about 800 hours. 
 I should note that my 6SE has the upgraded parts and the DACT.
 Also note that Mesh plate Rectifier tube's are more sensitive to vibration.

 ss


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## Cyberevo

Hello Grandofan2 and Takezo:
   
  Would you mind if I cite your comments in another forum?
   
  AndAudio is the biggest Headset forum in Taiwan and we have more and more Woo users here.
  However, most of us don't have knowledge and experience of tubes.
  I decide to share the knowledge I learn from Headfi.
   
  If you don't feel comfortable about it, please let me know.
  I will remove it.
   
  Thanks & regards;
  Ivan.
   
  your comments are shared here: http://www.andaudio.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82571&p=758053#p758053


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## torara

Hi,
   
  Understand that this thread has been inactive for a while.  Have been reading through the mod topic and info is very very good, and I definitely understand a lot more about the Woo6.  I am completely new to DIY but this thread got me interested and now I have changed the coupling caps to Mundorf Evo silver/gold/oil.
   
  Bought Woo 6 early 2013 and it is probably 2012 model.  Components and layout inside my Woo 6 is clearly different to pictures I have seen in this thread, now Woo uses some PCBs instead of direct wiring.  I have a question on why the amp has resistors connecting input signal from potentiometer to grids of the first section of the tubes?  Is it possible to switch these resistors to direct wiring?  Hoping to get a  more direct signal connection to the amp.
   
  Thanks


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## clowkoy

Those resistors are grid stoppers. They are there to prevent oscillation (?). Value is not critical. I've seen 100, 220, 1k or even higher.
The only thing I worry about the circuit is the 330uf C1 in the PS, considering it's tube rectified and can use the Sophia 274b.


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## torara

I guess I will put Sophia in drawer until I change the 1st cap to 4 or 10 uf. Can I use non-polar cap for this? Like the cap the use in speaker cross over. Or this is limited to polarized cap? Any recommendation on the brand I should use for this?


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## clowkoy

Best would be to use metallized polypropylene . They are also non-polarized. I've tried a Clarity cap 4.7uf but hum level is unacceptable so I put back the stock cap. Right now, I only put 5ar4.


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## torara

Hi,
  
 Have been modding WA6. Now have the first cap after rectifier as 30uf Mundorf.  After modding I have about 100V to 105V going to plates of driver tubes.  I forgot to measure before modding, so not sure if it's too low or too high.  But the amp has been sounding alright with no distortion or clipping for the past several months.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do you know if my voltage to plates of driver tubes is too high or not?
 I also heard some talk in this thread about raising B+ (voltage to plate).  What voltage are you aiming for?
  
 I also changed the interstage coupling cap to Mundorf EVO silver/gold/oil 0.15uf.  Thinking about changing the value of this interstage cap to higher value like 0.47uf.  What would the higher value of this cap do the the sound?
  
 Many thanks...


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