# Source Volume Vs. Amp Volume



## AZ Greg

Need some help guys. I've seen this question asked/answered a few times, but always with different opinions. So I'm hoping I can get some more viewpoints and maybe find out what the general consensus is.

 I'm using a portable amp connected to my PC sound card. I can adjust the volume through my PC on a 1-100 scale. The portable amp also has volume control. So what is the best balance between the sound card volume and the portable amp volume? One thing to keep in mind, because I am using the portable amp with my PC, I don't have to worry about conserving a battery.

 So far, I've had people tell me to set the PC to about 80 and adjust the amp from there and I've had other people tell me to max the volume of the amp and then adjust the PC from there.

 Any help would be appreciated!


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## Wiggy Fuzz

i always go max volume on things and adjust from there on - any time i use a line out from the headphone. 

 seriously, try it and see if you'll hear a difference (any distortion/breaking up). i never seem to with any of my portable stuff


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## gwilo

From my time working as a Roadie I was always told.

 Have the your inputs lower than your outputs.

 In your case have the PC volume lower than the amp. Which would mean almost max out the amp and adjust your PC volume to your comfort level.


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## Cousin Patty

I've always maxed out the volume on my PC and attenuated with my amp.


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## wuwhere

I've always put my source at about halfway or so of the maximum and adjust the vol of my amp to about 3/4 or so. My reasoning is that my source has an amp and putting it at half way, the distortion or noise would be at a lower level (high S/N) before I re-amplify the input again with my amp.


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## gwilo

^ that is my reasoning too.

 The key is to avoid distortion.


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## DunninLA

So, can I infer from the answers all over the map that there is not right or wrong in this?

 So far I have seen nobody say they measured a difference, or heard a difference either way, nor has any respondent said they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## digitalfrog

^^ 
 Typical, LOL


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## kyledotroberts

Thread resurrection...
   
  Wondering same as the OPer - If you're going from a PC -> DAC+Amp -> HPs does it matter if you max out the PC (source) volume and then modify the volume solely on your Amp or is it best to keep the Amp maxed and the source lower?
   
  I've had a play with and noticed a difference when I used my ipod -> XM6 (not going through the XM6's DAC) whereby it sounded better to me by maxing out my ipod and then modifying the volume on my Amp but that was a long time ago, in truth I've not really had another test since...
   
  Is there a Head-fi standard procedure or just whatever you think sounds best/not really fussed?


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## noxa

I always thought it was about 70% on your source and adjust your amp from there. I was under the impression if you put your source to max you get distortion.


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## kyledotroberts

70% on the source and then the rest on your amp? Even if your source is digital going directly to a DAC via USB it makes a difference?
   
  Is this the general consensus?


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## Jalo

Quote: 





gwilo said:


> From my time working as a Roadie I was always told.
> 
> Have the your inputs lower than your outputs.
> 
> In your case have the PC volume lower than the amp. Which would mean almost max out the amp and adjust your PC volume to your comfort level.


 

 This is the right way.  The reason is that if you have a dedicated external amp, common sense will tell you that your dedicated portable amp will have a much better amp section than your computer sound card.  As a result, you do not want amplify any signal or noise from your source (i.e. computer),  so just output the source signal as low as you could and let the better external amp to do the job of amplification.


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## kyledotroberts

Even with a digital signal? (Tbh never really considered how an amplified digital signal would look at different levels of amplification? )


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## Jalo

Quote: 





kyledotroberts said:


> Even with a digital signal? (Tbh never really considered how an amplified digital signal would look at different levels of amplification? )


 
  No, what I said above assumes an analog out from sound card.  If your computer has USB/Coax/Optical out, then they will be output to an external DAC and from the Dac to your external amp.  In that case, there is no controllable source volume.  Your external amp will have to do all the amplification.


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## HiFlight

Although this topic could be argued pro and con endlessly, I have always run the source near max for best s/n ratio as well as for maximum dynamic range.   Below is an excerpt from a professional sound recording site that may be of value in understanding the rationale for a high source level.   Although we are considering a headphone amplifier, for all practical purposes, it can be considered the equivalent of a mixer.
   
  Quote:
   
 Maximising the dynamic range  All equipment has dynamic range. This is the range between the quietest and loudest signals it can accommodate, or between the noise floor (beneath which a sound cannot be heard) and distortion. A signal entering a mixer needs to be as loud as possible without overloading the circuitry and causing distortion.
 Setting the best signal to noise ratio  All circuits produce a fixed level of noise (hiss). If the source signal is loud enough this noise will be less noticeable.


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## Joris

It will depend on the equipment. I guess every combination of amp and source will have it's sweet spot. Just a matter of trying what works best.
   
  I believe some digital sources only have volume control by attenuating the digital signal (by reducing bit depth thus dynamic range). If this is the case having the source at 100% will have an advantage as long as the amp in the source can put up the volume cleanly and the amp can handle the input.
   
  I started a thread about this in the "sound sience" sub forun but no replies to date.
   
  When I run my android tablet through my bravo tube headphone amp it is clear that the combination works best with the source at about 60% even though I suspect the volume control to be in the digital realm (pre-dac).


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## Jalo

Quote: 





hiflight said:


> Although this topic could be argued pro and con endlessly, I have always run the source near max for best s/n ratio as well as for maximum dynamic range.   Below is an excerpt from a professional sound recording site that may be of value in understanding the rationale for a high source level.   Although we are considering a headphone amplifier, for all practical purposes, it can be considered the equivalent of a mixer.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 HiFlight, I think we are confusing what source signal is to the output or volume of the source component and in this case it is the computer that is what we are talking about in this thread.  Of course, when it comes to signal to noise ratio, the higher the better as in above 100.  And it is always desirable if there is sufficient amplitude and S/R ratio in the recording signal.  But when the computer start increasing volume output to the external portable amp, the portable amp is only amping the amp signal from the computer.  This is the same reason why we use LOD and not headphone out of the ipod when we connect to an external amp because we do not want to amping the amp signal from the headphone out.  In your quote, they are talking about the incoming recording signal.


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## HiFlight

Quote: 





jalo said:


> HiFlight, I think we are confusing what source signal is to the output or volume of the source component and in this case it is the computer that is what we are talking about in this thread.  Of course, when it comes to signal to noise ratio, the higher the better as in above 100.  And it is always desirable if there is sufficient amplitude and S/R ratio in the recording signal.  But when the computer start increasing volume output to the external portable amp, the portable amp is only amping the amp signal from the computer.  This is the same reason why we use LOD and not headphone out of the ipod when we connect to an external amp because we do not want to amping the amp signal from the headphone out.  In your quote, they are talking about the incoming recording signal.


 
   
  Good point!  I rarely, if ever, re-amp an analog headphone output from a soundcard, DAP or anything else.   All my players have a line-out which I use.  Some have a volume control for the line-out, but I still run these at about 100% into my amps.  The ones that have a fixed line-out such as my DAC's I take what they provide. 
   
  I have never tried the headphone output from my computer, as I am assuming that it isn't worth the trouble.  I use either optical out or USB, with the preference going to optical. 
   
  I really am considering my source as a pre-amp.


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## TheHighBuilder

I'm using the laptop feeding a DAC/amp combo, so IME:
  digital player on pc at max vol,
  then set the (analog) volume control of dac-amp to my level need.
  YMMV, of course.


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## DaniXFI

Bump, wondering the same.
  
 I guess it's not much important since everyone has its own opinion :S


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## holden4th

From my PC using Fiio E7/E9 I always set the source (Spotify, Music files, etc) to max volume as it is a direct digital stream to the DAC/Amp.
  
 On my iPad which uses an analogue out (HO) as I don't have the camera kit I set the volume to about 70-80% and let the Fiio Q1 do the work from there.
  
 When Fiio produce an LOD that works with the iPad (coming soon apparently) I'll up the source volume to 100% if the LOD allows it.
  
 I've always used any digital source this way. My CD player has a volume control which I set to max. and this works perfectly well with my HiFi system. They're probably designed this way.


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## c64

Low volume on pc/soundcard and adjust headphone amp is the way to go.
  
 No idea why people go around saying put pc volume at 100% and adjust amp, they are just wrong.
  
 You will get distortion and clipping the higher you go.


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## streetfighter

Would like to bump this thread again, as I have the same question. Not sure which way is right or wrong?


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## barrec

I just recently got into head-fi and wondered this very thing. My instinct is that the source should be quieter than the DAC since the DAC is the equipment influencing the sound. I have noticed with my Oppo Ha-2, however, that my iPod's volume automatically goes to max every time I turn on the DAC while they are connected. I wonder if it is coincidence or if the DAC is set to receive max input volume from the source.

The other component I've been considering is the headphones. I can't fathom cranking my iPod all the way because I would only turn the DAC volume to 2 at the most. On the other hand, if I had better headphones that required the built in amp, I may very well see the need for max source volume.


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## subwoofer

As I am about to enter into the world of headphone amps, This thread caught my eye and I've read all the replies so far.
  
 Before I get going, excuse the low post count here. I have a long obsession with all things audio and used to test/review for a car stereo magazine, and have a M. Eng, so know a few things (and also don't know a lot of things).
  


streetfighter said:


> Would like to bump this thread again, as I have the same question. Not sure which way is right or wrong?


 
  
 Possibly important enough to be a sticky if some sort of definitive answer can be found.
  
  


c64 said:


> Low volume on pc/soundcard and adjust headphone amp is the way to go.
> 
> No idea why people go around saying put pc volume at 100% and adjust amp, they are just wrong.
> 
> You will get distortion and clipping the higher you go.


 
  
 I'm going to disagree quite strongly (although actually 100% output may be slightly too high, perhaps around 95%), and part of the reason is based on the loading of the circuit.
  
 When using a headphone jack (due to there being no line-out), that headphone jack needs to be taken up to near the maximum output to get near the voltage levels of a line out. Most amplifiers are designed to work with that level as their input. anything lower and you need to take the amplifier up to near its maximum to get the level you want (because you made the input level too low).
  
 HiFlight's quote is spot on as it comes down to S/N ratio, continued below the quote...
  
  
 Quote:


hiflight said:


> Although this topic could be argued pro and con endlessly, I have always run the source near max for best s/n ratio as well as for maximum dynamic range.   Below is an excerpt from a professional sound recording site that may be of value in understanding the rationale for a high source level.   Although we are considering a headphone amplifier, for all practical purposes, it can be considered the equivalent of a mixer.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, whatever your view might be, your final stage amplification will be amplifying everything from the input. All devices have some noise, so noise cannot be ignored.  If the amplifier is taken to near to its top end of amplification, it will be making that input noise the loudest possible level it can be, so you WILL hear it.
  
 This means that you definitely do want the strongest 'clean' input signal with the highest S/N ratio you can get without distortion.
  
 The critical factor here is with a headphone output, it is designed to run a high load (low impedance) so can deliver current to drive the coils of the speaker. When connected to the input of an amplifier, the impedance is much much higher (~10kOhm), so it draws very little current (the lower current the better) and is better able to avoid voltage sag and clipping.
  
 There is no way to determine the correct level to set the headphone output using headphones to 'listen' for distortion, because as soon as you remove the load, and perhaps use an oscilloscope to monitor the output for clipping, the output will recover and no longer clip.
  
 One could argue that the characteristics of the headphone output's amplifier can be avoided if running it at a very low level, but you definitely will end up with a low S/N ratio and you will hear hissing.
  
 Using a headphone jack as a source is often the only option, but these can remain distortion free to a far higher level when connected to a line-in than when they drive a low impedance load.
  
 Interestingly there is an analogy to the source/amp level configuration in the car hifi world as all power-amps are designed to sit at a fixed gain and the volume is then controlled by the source components, However, a critical point in this case is that all the components are designed specifically to run like this. (Of course so are pre/power-amp HiFi systems). IF, and I really mean IF, a headphone amp was supposed to be used like this, then it would not have a volume knob on it; there would be a relatively inaccessible 'gain' control that you set once and leave.
  
 I am open minded about this, but reviewing these facts, I just can't see a good argument for using the headphone amp at maximum volume and using the source to control the output level.
  
 (A small note regarding 100% settings - generally I would avoid ever using something at 100% as fully loaded you are more likely to see/hear the subtle differences in some components. I would go with 90-95% as a practical maximum in most cases.)


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

Hard to say without knowing about the audio file. The best way to do it would be to use a gain control loop in SW which gets you close to full scale on the digital side... That way you're not leaving any bits on the table and you don't have to worry about clipping either, since the control loop will handle it. If I had to guess, I suspect this is probably how that replay gain stuff works. 

Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


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## BunnyNamedCraig

sooooooooooo whats the bottom line on this one gang? I have itunes all the way up, computer volume all the way up, amp at the level i want.. i don't seem to hear any distortion but then again i dont have golden ears....  i think after this conversation we should discuss what people think about upgraded cables


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

The best option would probably to back off the max volume a little bit. You'll minimize the loss of dynamic range and reduce the risk of clipping.
  
 You also want to make sure your amp is well below the 1dB compression point... You can get some funky distortion in the non-linear section of an op-amp. I'm sure most amps are designed so that max gain is well within the linear region, but better to be safe than sorry. You're probably well above safe listening levels here anyway.
  
 So back off the max volume on your DAP a little bit, and make sure you don't crank your amp all the way up either.


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## BunnyNamedCraig

grumpyoldguy said:


> The best option would probably to back off the max volume a little bit. You'll minimize the loss of dynamic range and reduce the risk of clipping.
> 
> You also want to make sure your amp is well below the 1dB compression point... You can get some funky distortion in the non-linear section of an op-amp. I'm sure most amps are designed so that max gain is well within the linear region, but better to be safe than sorry. You're probably well above safe listening levels here anyway.
> 
> So back off the max volume on your DAP a little bit, and make sure you don't crank your amp all the way up either.




I'll give it a shot!


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## money4me247

actually I thought it was the opposite.
  
 I was under the impression that when your computer volume set at 100% that is the normal volume of the track and that is when you are getting nominal line level output. any volume changes below 100% is digital attenuation (reduction of the strength of the signal). when you digitally reduce the signal, sometimes the result has to be rounded off. aka 4-bit value of 13 halved by digital attenuation would result in 7 (since 4-bits words has to be represented by whole numbers), so that is not as accurate as the original 15.
  
 I believe you can get digital clipping is if the software processing the amplitude of the signal goes beyond largest positive value that can be represented. aka when a value of 2000 is doubled to 4000, but the maximum value that can be represented is only 3000. but I don't think that would happen with most recorded songs unless you artificially alter the signal strength.
  
 There are programs that can push the digital volume beyond the 100% and that is when you get issues with clipping and distortion. Programs like MP3gain would be an example would digitally alter the signal to boost volume which can lead to distortion. Sound enhancements like loudness equalization or "set volume for all songs the same" options can push songs above 100% which can create distortion, so best turn it off those enhancements.
  
 what I've always heard was to max source, max media player (only to 100% as some programs can go above that with >100% settings or dB boost settings), and control volume with amp only.
  
 basically the concept is that you want to leave the digital volume alone and only play with the analog volume control. (edit: and if you are worried about software processing, then perhaps have the media player volume a bit lower but I am unsure about this)
  
 however, I am not an expert on the topic, so I would love to read other people's thoughts.


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

money4me247 said:


> actually I thought it was the opposite.
> 
> I was under the impression that when your computer volume set at 100% that is the normal volume of the track and that is when you are getting nominal line level output. any volume changes below 100% is digital attenuation (reduction of the strength of the signal). when you digitally reduce the signal, sometimes the result has to be rounded off. aka 4-bit value of 13 halved by digital attenuation would result in 7 (since 4-bits words has to be represented by whole numbers), so that is not as accurate as the original 15.
> 
> ...




Have you generated a test file, played it out at max volume, and recorded it so if it really is at full scale or gained? 

I haven't. So I wouldn't risk it. 

Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


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## money4me247

grumpyoldguy said:


> Have you generated a test file, played it out at max volume, and recorded it so if it really is at full scale or gained?
> 
> I haven't. So I wouldn't risk it.
> 
> Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


 
 ??? I am not sure I understand you.
  
 I was just saying that you should control volume with your amp first and if you have issues then music player, leaving the computer volume at 100%.


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

Sorry... my phone thinks it knows better than me and tries to autocorrect things, despite the fact that I have that feature disabled.
  
 I was asking if you had generated test files at a known amplitude, then played it out of your DAP at full volume and recorded the output, then processed the captured data to see if the DAP played it out at the expected level or if it applied a gain.
  
 You'd have to know the characteristics of the DAP and audio capture card front ends to figure it out. I don't think it's worth the effort, so I haven't done it myself... and since I can't be 100% positive what the behavior of my source is, I don't think it makes sense to risk the chance that the audio may be clipping by setting the volume all the way up. I balance the desire for more dynamic range with my worry about clipping by backing off the volume a little bit. I think it makes the most sense without having all of the information.
  
 I saw something in your post about rounding... I didn't mention any thing before... but there is probably rounding all over the place through the DSP chain on the source. DSP is particularly prone to substantial bit growth because of how many operations require multiplies... There is likely rounding at multiple stages. There are, of course, methods for rounding that will help minimize the impact. For example you could dither the truncated bits before rounding to randomize whether you round up or down, you could round to the nearest even so you don't skew the mean value, etc. And halving 13 does not automatically mean you have to truncate to 6 (or round up to 7)... DSP is done with fixed point math, 6.5 (more specifically 13/2) can be represented in 6.1 format (6 bits, one of which is fractional) as 001101.


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## macky112

not trying to revive an old thread, but I stumbled upon this thread when I googled "headfi PC amp max volume"

after reading through this thread and did some tests myself, here is what I found:
source volume (ie phone, DAP, PC etc) should play the loudest possible without clipping, and on my PC, that is about 50% volume, YMMV

so bottom line is, there is no magical volume you need to be at, each source has it's clipping threshold, and you gotta find it for that particular source.


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## theveterans

macky112 said:


> not trying to revive an old thread, but I stumbled upon this thread when I googled "headfi PC amp max volume"
> 
> after reading through this thread and did some tests myself, here is what I found:
> source volume (ie phone, DAP, PC etc) should play the loudest possible without clipping, and on my PC, that is about 50% volume, YMMV
> ...



Source volume is disabled if you bypass Windows Mixer through WASAPI or ASIO, and this plays music at the source file volume levels (i.e. no alteration of the bits via software EQ, DSP, software volume control).


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## lowrider007

I was always under the impression that having the PC volume set at 100% was the equivalent to a fixed line level output, true or false? 

Also can't this be tested by playing a CD on a PC plugged into an amp and then playing the same CD on a CD player outputting from the RCA's into the same amp?


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## theveterans

lowrider007 said:


> I was always under the impression that having the PC volume set at 100% was the equivalent to a fixed line level output, true or false?



If the output is digital, it's true as long as the DAC's line out is fixed. On analog or using on-board audio, it depends on the model. Some only provide .5V or 1V rather than 2V


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## Senman (Feb 18, 2018)

I have my sens 650 and old schit vali connected to laptop , and I always turn my amp all the way up and adjust on pc.
That way I hear all the registers with equal value and all that;s left is the prefered volume.


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## Jmop

Question. If I’m going line-out from my dac/amp to an external amp does it matter if I’m on low or high gain on the dac/amp? Or is high gain preferable since it’s feeding a similarly low output amp? Volume changes on the dac/amp effect the volume of the external amp.


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## abuanw (Nov 26, 2019)

*Source -> DAC/AMP *
= Make sure DAC/AMP has atleast 30% more than the source to lower the noice level from the source.
 = In this setup normally we get a not very powerful amp when a device is DAC+AMP.
= when you are travelling make it 50-50 so not to drain your DAC/AMP quickly.

*Source -> AMP *
= Make sure DAC/AMP has atleast 50% more than the source to lower the noice level from the source.
= In this setup normally we get a very powerful dedicated amp so make your source volume as low as possible.
= when you are travelling make it 50-50 so not to drain your AMP quickly.

*Source -> DAC *
= In case your DAC have a volume feature, noise level does not apply because a DAC is not an AMP so make the Source at full volume and let the adjustment happen in the DAC.
= A very good example is the Chord Mojo DAC, If you put the source at 50% your Mojo need to go full volume just to hear it! lol!
= In my case my Fiio M6 is at 120% volume level and Mojo is in both-RED.
= This extends my Mojo's play time to 13hrs.


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## bimbimkay1210

Here is what i found
Hope this help
http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf


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## nofacemonster

Bumping the thread...! Here goes... after reading this thread I got lost too...! any clarifications will be greatly appreciated.

This is how I go...!

Foobar Volume 100% and PC volume 100% ---> USB cable to ---> FX Audio Dac-X6 (Dac only) ----> Little Dot MKII (Adjust the volume from there) ----> HD6XX

Am I doing it right or wrong? Sorry for sounding stupid and noobish!


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## ClieOS

nofacemonster said:


> Foobar Volume 100% and PC volume 100% ---> USB cable to ---> FX Audio Dac-X6 (Dac only) ----> Little Dot MKII (Adjust the volume from there) ----> HD6XX
> 
> Am I doing it right or wrong? Sorry for sounding stupid and noobish!



Nothing wrong AFAICT.


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## Roen

With digital volume, if you can use 100%, go 100%.

With analog source volume, use line out, or 1 volume setting less than maximum or, maximum volume before distortion. Use your headphone amp for the rest.


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