# Cypher Labs Theorem 720



## DrSheep

Ok, someone going to start this, and it might just as well be me this time.  Since information for the CLT720 is somewhat limited from CL's own site, I am going to borrow them from TTVJ.  Here it goes:
  
 Source: TTVJ
  
 MSRP: $899
  
 The Cypher Labs Theorem 720 is an all in one amp/DAC for Apple devices, computers and some Android devices. It has balanced output and amazing battery life.

 Theorem 720 DAC Features/Specs:
 • AKM 24/192 DAC (AKM4396)
 • Works with Apple devices, Mac/PC, some Android devices - automatic device detection
 • Charge time under 4 hours (purple when charged)
 • Play time up to 18 hours, when beginning with fully charged iPod/iPhone (does not charge Android)
 • Charges iPod/iPhone while playing
 • Can play continuously when attached to the power supply
 • Single ended and balanced headphone amplifier (volume controlled)
 • Single ended line level output (not volume controlled)
 • Three gain levels (IEM's, standard phones, planar phones(
 • On/Off volume knob - custom made
 • Works with all Apple devices from 2007 onward
 • Color: black only
 • Enclosure markings 100% laser etched, no silkscreen
 • Compact size matches many Apple devices
 • To be included in Theorem package is a short cable for Android (micro USB to mini B USB)
 • Please use the newest PC driver version 1.61. Uninstall version 1.60, then re-install new driver from Cypher Labs website product page
 • Technical Specs:
 3.5mm (1/8”) analog stereo out to amplifier (line level)
 3.5mm (1/8”) analog stereo out to headphones
 Mini-4 pin balanced stereo out (to balanced headphones)
 Sample Depth 16 bit from Apple Devices; up to 24 bit from computers
 Frequencies supported on Apple Devices: 44.1 / 48.0 @ 16 bit
 Frequencies supported on computers:
 44.1 / 48.0 / 96.0 / 88.1 / 176.4 / 192.0 @ 16 and 24 bit
 Li-polymer battery 8700mAh - AC switching is totally isolated
 Dimensions 120mm (136 incl volume knob) x 29mm x 64mm
 Weight: 10 oz or .3 kg
 • The headphone outs have as close to 0 ohm impedance as possible (less than 1ohm). The headphone output levels themselves depend upon the gain settings. With the volume pot set to 100%:
 High Gain
 Single Ended output = 11.3 dB
 Balanced Output = 5.5 dB
 Mid Gain
 Single Ended Output = 3.5 dB
 Balanced Output = -2.3 dB
 Low Gain
 Single Ended Output = -9 dB
 Balanced Output = -14.8 dB
  
 Jude's anouncement on Head-Fi TV from YouTube:


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## georgelai57

As the owner of the CLAS Solo-R, and with no intention of listening to music from a PC, Mac, or Android, I'd have been more excited they built a Solo variant with amp inbuilt. Call it a Duo?


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## DrSheep

I think it is rather easy to see their intention is to compete with CEntrance HiFi-M8.  However, does the CLT720's $200 price hike worth the cost for almost 4x the battery life but at a lower bit rate?  I am not so sure.  I do think that the CLT720 is sort of a Solo w/ AMP, but CL is really pricing the T720 our of reach of most CLAS owners.  It will be smart for CL if they can offer some kind of early bird special, like what VentureCraft has been doing with their SounDroid Typhoon and Go-DAP TT, or some kind of trade-in program for existing CLAS owners for a new T720.  My bottom line is that you will be trading off too many features for longer battery life by not getting the M8, and at this point, specially with it's current price, may not be worth it for most of us.


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## Ultrainferno

Mine's on its way!


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## rmilewsk

What does "some android devices" mean?


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## DrSheep

rmilewsk said:


> What does "some android devices" mean?


 
  
 Not all Android works with OTG and some are locked.  For instance I can never get my Sony F807 to work with any DAC/AMP that supports Android, even with OTG cables and what not.


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## rmilewsk

I was very disappointed to hear that hiss is evident with IEMs when using the 720. I plan to use this with the JH Audio 13 pros. In my opinion there should be zero hiss with any headphones at this price point.


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## Currawong

I've renamed this thread as it is a new product that only one person (as far as I know) owns. I think an impressions thread is getting ahead of ourselves a bit.


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## Ultrainferno

Mine arrived. Been listening to it but too early for impressions


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## IceClass

rmilewsk said:


> I was very disappointed to hear that hiss is evident with IEMs when using the 720. I plan to use this with the JH Audio 13 pros. In my opinion there should be zero hiss with any headphones at this price point.




I must admit, I am quite seduced by the 720's looks and features but as an IEM user, I feel much the same way as you.
It does seem a bit silly to give it three gain settings without having one that would allow a decent black background. I really want one but the hiss factor with IEMs is a deal breaker for me and it leaves me peeved.
If they fix the hiss with IEMs, I'd buy one. If, additionally, they released it in silver, I'd run down there and throw cash at them.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

Since it has hiss, do the previous models also have that problem with CIEMs?


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## LFC_SL

The hiss is unconfirmed as it is not even out yet. Has only been in the hands of testers

This is their first combined DAC and amp combo so do not understand your question


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## Ultrainferno

Indeed, it is the first dac/amp unit so that's a weird question. As I said as well, my theorem hisses with iems too.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

Why is it weird? Previous models such as the solo R and DB...


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## Ultrainferno

hawaiiancerveza said:


> Why is it weird? Previous models such as the solo R and DB...


 
  
 did not have an amp (out) so why in the world would a DAC hiss


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## Hawaiiancerveza

ultrainferno said:


> did not have an amp (out) so why in the world would a DAC hiss


 
  
 Ah ok I got ya.  haha I didn't think of that.  So no hissing then =) 
  
 Hmmm that makes me rethink where I got the hissing though...I think its because I was thinking of pairing the CLAS R/MKIII.  I think that the MKIII may be what may cause the background hiss.  I don't currently have these but I am reading around looking for something to use with my CIEMs.


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## rmilewsk

I have had the theorem 720 for a couple of days now and have listened for a few hours with many different types of music. I have compared the sound quality with my RSA intruder amp/dac using the same IEMs. My IEMs are the JH Audio 13 pros. I am using my galaxy S4 as the source. I am connecting my JH audio 13's to both amp/dacs using moon audio silver dragon balanced connector. I have both the theorem and the intruder set to the low output setting. I am using poweramp pro to play music when connecting to the intruder and USB audio recorder pro when connecting to the theorem. I only tested 16/44.1 files. 
  
 The theorem 720 has a more neutral presentation than the intruder with more micro and macro detail with all types of music. The theorem fits the size of my galaxy s4 better especially for traveling. The intruder has a warmer fatter sound that covers up small details in the music. The theorem has a deeper soundstage that sounds more natural to me than the intruder. 
  
 The theorem is much larger and heavier than the intruder. With my source and IEMs there is no question there is noticeable hiss when listening to the theorem. The hiss is easily heard when connecting the IEM cable to the theorem and turning it on while keeping the volume at the lowest setting. The hiss is not as noticeable while listening to rock/pop music. Unfortunately I can easily discern the hiss while listening to any music that has quiet passages. The XRCD2 version of Hell Freezes Over has great dynamics with very quiet passages. The hiss is heard in all of the quiet passages. The hiss is loud enough to obscure background detail and outer detail especially in classical music. The theorem pops and clicks when connecting my galaxy S4 to the USB port using the moon audio silver dragon USB cable. It has no problems using the same type of cable that comes in the box with the theorem. 
  
  
 Overall I like the neutrality of the theorem better than intruder. However, the intruder is dead quiet with my IEMs. The better detail of the theorem is partially negated by the background hiss. The hiss covers over the very thing that makes the theorem so good - the greater detail. 
  
 If I had to choose, Which I do have to choose. I have to choose the intruder because of the lack of background hiss.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

Thanks for the heads up.  I guess its not CIEM/IEM friendly...


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## rudi0504

My new Theorem 720 out the box pictures 

Source : iPhone 4 s
Dac / Amp : Cyber labs Theorem 720
Cable : moon audio silver dragon v1
Iems : 
 No hiss to low noise 
 Earsonic Sm 64 v1. 
 Unique Melody 3 DD universal
 Phonak Pfe 232

 Hiss without music play 
 Demo 1964 
 Fit Ear MH 335 DW 
 Westone Um 3 x rc 

Headphone : LCD 2 rev 3 Zero Noise 
 LCD 3 Zero Noise 
 Fostex TH 900 can hear very low noise / hiss

SQ out the box :

I am under estimate from this dac amp Thorem 720 
SQ excellent if without hiss to BA iems 
Power : the biggest power from portable dac / amp 
 Is bigger than my Alo RX 3 B
 It is definitely more for Headphones than iems 

Is you like clarity ,very good detail , very good separation, very excellent bass impact and speed and wide and tall soundstage than Cyberlabs Thorem is your choice 

I love out the box SQ 

My IMO


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## rudi0504

My another pictures with 2 iems :

Source : iPhone 4 s
Dac / Amp : Cyberlabs Thouren 720

Iems : Unique Melody 3 DD
 Earsonic SM 64 v1
 Ciem 1964 demo unit


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## rudi0504

My another pair set up with new Theorem 720

Source : iPhone 4 s
Dac / Amp : Cyberlabs Theorem 720
Headphone : Fostex TH 900
Cable : cyberlabs stock cable mini USB to LOD


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## rudi0504

My another Therem 720 set up 

Source : iPhone 4S
Dac / amp : Cyberlabs Theorem 720
Headphone : LCD 2 rev 3


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## LFC_SL

Any point to the line output?


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## rudi0504

lfc_sl said:


> Any point to the line output?




It is plus point , Theorem has line output like my IBasso HDP R10

You can use your line out put as pure DAC from your Theorem .

And connect to another external amp


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## rudi0504

Cyberlabs Theorem 720 as pure I Device DAC 

Source : IPhone 4 s
Dac : Cyberlabs Theorem 720 as pure iDevice DAC
Amp :Mass Ko Bo 385 
Iem : Unique Melody 3 DD

SQ : heavenly Sound Quality


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## rudi0504

My Cyberlabs Theorem driving balance headphones

Source : iPhone 4s
Dac / Amp : Cyberlabs Theorem 720
Headphones : LCD 2 rev 3 with Norse Audio balance RSA
Sennheiser HD 800 with Whiplash customer made twag Twcu balance RSA
Cable : mini USB to Lod stock cable from acyberlabs

With balance cable you can get more balance in all frequencies 

I love my Theorem more and more


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## rudi0504

Ultrasone ED 8 Ruthenium best synergy with a Theorem 720

Source : IPhone 4 s
Dac / Amp : Cyberlabs Theorem 720 DAC
Headphone : Ultrasone ED 8 Ruthenium
Cable : Whiplash Audio Twag / Twcu hybrid cable v2 balance RSA


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## Ultrainferno

Picture Spam


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## LFC_SL

rudi0504 said:


> It is plus point , Theorem has line output like my IBasso HDP R10
> 
> You can use your line out put as pure DAC from your Theorem .
> 
> And connect to another external amp


 
  
 I was more getting at built-in versus external amp purely SQ
  
 Putting aside weight, size etc


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## rudi0504

lfc_sl said:


> I was more getting at built-in versus external amp purely SQ
> 
> Putting aside weight, size etc




You are right if pure portable what you prefer
This Theorem can challenge one set of my 3 bricks with the same source my IPhone 4s 
That's why I am so happy now less 1 brick 




ultrainferno said:


> Picture Spam


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## Hawaiiancerveza

But the hiss with IEMs.... I wouldn't want it hissing with my UE11 nor my soon UERM....


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## Ultrainferno

hawaiiancerveza said:


> But the hiss with IEMs.... I wouldn't want it hissing with my UE11 nor my soon UERM....


 
  
 Mine hisses, my friend says his unit doesn't. Strange world.


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## rudi0504

ultrainferno said:


> Mine hisses, my friend says his unit doesn't. Strange world.




Like I said before , my Theorem hiss if I pair with BA driver like :

On the left side : 
JH 16 pro old version 
Fit Ear MH 335 DW
UM Miracle 

No hiss for 4 Iems like :

In the middle :
Tralucent Audio 1+2 with UBER cable 

On the right side :
UM 3 DD
Earsonic SM 64 v1
Phonak 232 

Note : the hiss is constant from Zero to Max Volume control .


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## marcusd

My UM Merlin's checked out ok on low gain for low or no noticeable hiss but cheaper IEM's at 10db sensitivity higher hissed pretty darn good. FYI Merlins came in at 108db and the cheaper ones at 118db.


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## rudi0504

marcusd said:


> My UM Merlin's checked out ok on low gain for low or no noticeable hiss but cheaper IEM's at 10db sensitivity higher hissed pretty darn good. FYI Merlins came in at 108db and the cheaper ones at 118db.




Merlin is like Tralucent Audio1+2 hybrid iem, it is no hiss with Theorem


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## Ultrainferno

I'll be receiving my 1964 V6 Stage soon, I'll report back but I'm not expecting miracles with 22Ohm and 115db


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## rudi0504

ultrainferno said:


> I'll be receiving my 1964 V6 Stage soon, I'll report back but I'm not expecting miracles with 22Ohm and 115db




I have heard my friend 1964 V6 Stage with Theorem, the result is hiss like Jh 16 pro , fit ear MH 335 DW , UM Miracle .


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## LFC_SL

Headfonia and Headfonics reviews up
  
 No-one seems to have done a Hifi-M8 comparison as yet


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## IceClass

Colour me disappointed about the hiss.
 The 720 is pretty close to perfect for me ... if it weren't for the noise floor.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

ultrainferno said:


> Mine hisses, my friend says his unit doesn't. Strange world.


 
 Oh... hmmm take a gamble...lol. IDK.  I'll wait for more reviews.  Let them work out the bugs.


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## Ultrainferno

lfc_sl said:


> Headfonics reviews up


 
  
 For some reason I don't connect with his reviews. After reading I'm often still clueless to how something really sounds. I just read the Theorem review and probably it's just me but I got bored reading it





  
 No offence to Headfonics, must be my weird working brain.


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## marcusd

lfc_sl said:


> Headfonia and Headfonics reviews up
> 
> No-one seems to have done a Hifi-M8 comparison as yet


 
  
 Sadly because I dont have the M8 yet - supposed to arrive sometime this month though - fingers crossed  Michael is a busy boy with all your orders hehe.


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## marcusd

ultrainferno said:


> For some reason I don't connect with his reviews. After reading I'm often still clueless to how something really sounds. I just read the Theorem review and probably it's just me but I got bored reading it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 None taken


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## Ultrainferno

Sorry man


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## marcusd

ultrainferno said:


> Sorry man


 
  
 hehe honestly its cool 
  
 Anyone out there with a T70P is going to love the 720.


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## rudi0504

Theorem 720 dac amp pair with Earsonic S - EM6 = excellent SQ 

Source : IPhone 4s
Dac / Amp : Cyberlabs Theorem 720 dac 
Iem : Earsonic S - EM 6
Cable : moon audio silver dragon v1 mini USB to Lod


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## marcusd

Whats the DB and ohm rating on the Earsonic S - EM6?


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## rudi0504

marcusd said:


> Whats the DB and ohm rating on the Earsonic S - EM6?




 English

FacebookTwitter
REVOLUTION

The revolution is underway. The S-EM6 became the world’s first universal earphones using 6 drivers and 3 way crossover. Based on EM6 technology, it’s the first time that universal earphones propose the sound quality and finish of a flagship custom in-ear monitors.

SOUND

The sound and listening sensation are simply amazing. A ready to listen high quality EarSonics sound…



S-EM6
3WAY / 6 DRIVERS

The revolution is underway. The world’s first 6 drivers universal earphones. The amazing new sound experience.


Sensitivity: 124 dB/mW
Frequency response : 10 Hz -20 kHz
Impédance: 60 ohms
Driver: 6 balanced armature drivers (2 lows, 2mediums, 2 highs), 3-way passive crossover.


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## Ultrainferno

My 8pin to USB mini-A cable just died on me and I can't seem to find a replacement.
 Any tips?
  
 Thanks!


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## rudi0504

ultrainferno said:


> My 8pin to USB mini-A cable just died on me and I can't seem to find a replacement.
> Any tips?
> 
> Thanks!




Please try Moon Audio Silver Dragon v1 , SQ is very good


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## Ultrainferno

rudi0504 said:


> Please try Moon Audio Silver Dragon v1 , SQ is very good


 
  
 I was thinking of spending $10. But thanks


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## Ultrainferno

ultrainferno said:


> I was thinking of spending $10. But thanks


 
  
  
 Found it from TTVJ
  
 http://www.ttvjaudio.com/Lightning_to_90_Mini_A_USB_p/cyp0000013.htm


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## 290752

Will I achieve lower hissing when I use balanced out with my iem?


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## rudi0504

kepler28nm said:


> Will I achieve lower hissing when I use balanced out with my iem?




Hi 

I heard slightly lesser hiss if I use balance hp out in my Theorem


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## rmilewsk

I don't know about lower but I used balanced out and the hissing was very noticeable.


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## 290752

rmilewsk said:


> I don't know about lower but I used balanced out and the hissing was very noticeable.


 
 Dang! this hissing is a deal breaker for me.


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## midnightwalker

rmilewsk said:


> I don't know about lower but I used balanced out and the hissing was very noticeable.


 
  
 Which earphone are you using?


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## midnightwalker

hawaiiancerveza said:


> But the hiss with IEMs.... I wouldn't want it hissing with my UE11 nor my soon UERM....


 
  
 Lemme check with my UE11 and get back to you soon.


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## rmilewsk

JH Audio 13 pro. See my review earlier in this thread for more info.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

midnightwalker said:


> Lemme check with my UE11 and get back to you soon.


 
 Nice!  Please do.  Thanks!


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## midnightwalker

hawaiiancerveza said:


> Nice!  Please do.  Thanks!


 
  
 Hiss occurs when I am pairing the 720 with my UE11. _(with the 75ohm adaptor, almost no hiss)_
  
 The 720 is off at 4:30. But when I turn it to 7:00. I hear no hiss as no music is loud enough to cover the hiss. Low gain btw.


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## Hawaiiancerveza

midnightwalker said:


> Hiss occurs when I am pairing the 720 with my UE11. _(with the 75ohm adaptor, almost no hiss)_
> 
> The 720 is off at 4:30. But when I turn it to 7:00. I hear no hiss as no music is loud enough to cover the hiss. Low gain btw.


 
 Nice find.  Where did you get the 75ohm adapter?


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## midnightwalker

hawaiiancerveza said:


> Nice find.  Where did you get the 75ohm adapter?


 
  
 Ebay 10-15 bucks. It was originally made to convert the ER4P to ER4S. You can customize the impedance as well (25ohm, 50ohm, 75ohm, 125ohm, etc.). The link below is an example but I can pretty sure you can find better price for it.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETYMOTIC-ER4P-TO-ER4S-RESISTOR-ADAPTOR-3-5MM-PLUG-/290372905689


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## Hawaiiancerveza

midnightwalker said:


> Ebay 10-15 bucks. It was originally made to convert the ER4P to ER4S. You can customize the impedance as well (25ohm, 50ohm, 75ohm, 125ohm, etc.). The link below is an example but I can pretty sure you can find better price for it.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETYMOTIC-ER4P-TO-ER4S-RESISTOR-ADAPTOR-3-5MM-PLUG-/290372905689


 
 Nice!  Thanks!


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## shigzeo

My long-overdue review is finally up, and unfortunately, very long. I'm of the opinion that this is the best performing all-in-one device I've laid ears on. Its amp is simply phenomenal (despite problems with background noise). If that and the slight imbalanced problem at low volumes were fixed, there simply would be no stopping the 720 DAC. 
  
 I've been using it for about a month and been amazed that I've had to charge it only three times. I use it on the mains some times (when with computer) but on the go I've never drained its battery. When I get home I've charged it only after several days out with it. 
  
 I brought it to a shoot I did for Mac Audio and everyone loved it. I think they will be writing about it, too. The other reviewers were ecstatic, one of them couldn't stop talking about it.


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## marcusd

shigzeo said:


> My long-overdue review is finally up, and unfortunately, very long. I'm of the opinion that this is the best performing all-in-one device I've laid ears on. Its amp is simply phenomenal (despite problems with background noise). If that and the slight imbalanced problem at low volumes were fixed, there simply would be no stopping the 720 DAC.
> 
> I've been using it for about a month and been amazed that I've had to charge it only three times. I use it on the mains some times (when with computer) but on the go I've never drained its battery. When I get home I've charged it only after several days out with it.
> 
> I brought it to a shoot I did for Mac Audio and everyone loved it. I think they will be writing about it, too. The other reviewers were ecstatic, one of them couldn't stop talking about it.


 
  
 Good review Shigzeo 
  
 I have to agree with you now that on balance it is inherently neutral. My initial cans for testing were the Beyer T70P I found them to be just a little less sharp and far better PraT than other amps but since then everything seems to come in pretty much on the money neutral. 
  
 What I would like to see though is a front plate led to tell you if it is on or not and a few times I have forgotten to turn it off at night and come in to find it flat and the ipod positively bursting with energy.


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## Ultrainferno

marcusd said:


> What I would like to see though is a front plate led to tell you if it is on or not and a few times I have forgotten to turn it off at night and come in to find it flat and the ipod positively bursting with energy.


 
  
 Really? The blue led on the back lights up my whole bedroom, it's hard to not notice when it's still on.


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## shigzeo

marcusd said:


> Good review Shigzeo
> 
> I have to agree with you now that on balance it is inherently neutral. My initial cans for testing were the Beyer T70P I found them to be just a little less sharp and far better PraT than other amps but since then everything seems to come in pretty much on the money neutral.
> 
> What I would like to see though is a front plate led to tell you if it is on or not and a few times I have forgotten to turn it off at night and come in to find it flat and the ipod positively bursting with energy.


 
 You are definitely right about the front plate indicator. It would be nice. I've seen some great incorporated LEDs here and there that flick behind the pot. They are mostly used here in Japan. A single unit like the 720 that controls off/on positions and volume really befits a hidden LED circle or something similar. The T70P and 720 is a good fit isn't it? What is your favourite combo? Earphones, mine actually is the AX60 and 720. Headphones… hard to say as there are so many very very good choices, but I love the ES10/720.


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## marcusd

ultrainferno said:


> Really? The blue led on the back lights up my whole bedroom, it's hard to not notice when it's still on.


 
  
 Hehe I dont take it to bed with me much as I would like to


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## marcusd

shigzeo said:


> You are definitely right about the front plate indicator. It would be nice. I've seen some great incorporated LEDs here and there that flick behind the pot. They are mostly used here in Japan. A single unit like the 720 that controls off/on positions and volume really befits a hidden LED circle or something similar. The T70P and 720 is a good fit isn't it? What is your favourite combo? Earphones, mine actually is the AX60 and 720. Headphones… hard to say as there are so many very very good choices, but I love the ES10/720.


 
 So far the UM Merlin and the 720 and the T70P and the 720 but the Vorzuge duoamp is running it hard for the top sounding amp of the year for me that I have heard. Some IEM's didnt work out at all well on the 720.
  
 The technicalities of the 720 beyond amping though are just stupendous.


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## shigzeo

The Vorz is an incredible amp. I agree fully with you. It however isn't quite as good at driving for full resolution as the 720 is and its gain is even more aggressive. I found it a little harder to keep up with with very sensitive earphones like the SA7.


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## marcusd

shigzeo said:


> The Vorz is an incredible amp. I agree fully with you. It however isn't quite as good at driving for full resolution as the 720 is and its gain is even more aggressive. I found it a little harder to keep up with with very sensitive earphones like the SA7.


 
 yeah the gain is a monster at 10db for the bass - use for bass light cans only and not for IEM's.
  
 The duoamp for me is about musicality and matching - it can take almost any average impedance can and just layer it in some warmth and smoothness with minimal effort. It is a good vibes amp whereas the 720 feels more serious - and should be since it costs almost twice the price.


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## LFC_SL

shig
  
 What do you make of (1) Clas -dB + amp vs Theorem
 And (2) Theorem vs Theorem + amp
  
 Thanks


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## shigzeo

LFC, to be very honest, the 720 outperforms in almost any way possible most stacks. Its only weakness is what I yammered on about: volume pot issues:
 1. balance at low volumes
 2. control at high volumes (90% of the volume is decided by about a quarter turn of the pot)
  
 If you can get by those two things, the amp in the 720 hasn't really an equal. A few will take certain headphones louder with slightly better signals, but if you are not a HE-6 owner, the 720 is probably tip tip in every way. I love Clas -DB Love it. I use it all the time as DAC for my computer. But I'm not a big stack person and for people like me the 720 changed things-
  
 Yes others existed, but honestly the performance of the 720's nearest neighbours (again I've not spent enough time with the M8 to give a good comparison) is ridiculously one-sided. 
  
 Oh yes, and that battery life. Holy crikey the thing lasts forever.


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## Cotnijoe

does anyone have the ASG-2 that can try pairing it with the theorem 720? or could i pretty much assume there's a pretty obvious hiss?


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## shigzeo

I don't have it but I would reckon that unless the ASG-2 has less than 100dB sensitivity and is over 80Ω, that it will.


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## Cotnijoe

seems like it... seems like the only real solution is using impedance adapters... i just wonder what kind of effects and to what degree they'll have on the sound... the theorem 720 just seems perfect in so many ways... sigh


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## shigzeo

Well you have to remember that every single output device will have noise, some more than others, and some horrendous. I have a Walkman A828 that has more hiss than the 720 or MKIII, and a lot of people swear by it even with sensitive earphones. Same with the MKIII and 720. Just as I said in my review, it exists but most people will just get on with their music. 
  
 I used to be an absolute anti-hiss person, but then realised that every source has it. Even sources that don't hiss at all according to some people only need the right earphones and the right ears. Or… wrong I suppose. If you are worried, see if you can meet someone with the 720 or the MKIII, both of which have similar levels of hiss.
  
 Again, I don't think it will really bother a most audiophiles.


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## marcusd

cotnijoe said:


> does anyone have the ASG-2 that can try pairing it with the theorem 720? or could i pretty much assume there's a pretty obvious hiss?


 
 I will be able to tell you about that pairing either this Sunday or Dec 8th as a buddy of mine has the asg-2 and hope to meet him at a couple of events.


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## Cotnijoe

marcusd said:


> I will be able to tell you about that pairing either this Sunday or Dec 8th as a buddy of mine has the asg-2 and hope to meet him at a couple of events.




Glad to hear it! I look forward to your impressions


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## ken5334ever

just i got delivered today
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, and do a comparison to my old hp-p1.


----------



## Cotnijoe

any early impressions?


----------



## Poimandres

Looking forward to more impressions, thinking about picking one of these up.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I couldn't live without mine anymore. I use it on the go, in the office and sometimes at home as a full desktop DAC. It's brilliant. Sound is great of both amp and DAC and battery life is huge


----------



## Poimandres

Do you use it with iems? The mentioned hiss and travel of the volume pot are weighing on my decision.


----------



## rudi0504

My two best portable set up with Abyss 1266

Source : IPhone 4 S mod
Dac / Amp : Hi Fi M8 RSA version
Cyberlabs Theorem 720 dac
Cable : Lod to USB diy
Moon Audio Silver Dragon v1

SQ : these two are two beet dac amp for I device to drive my Abyss

Note : Abyss is herd to drive headphone planar , it is harder than my LCD 3 , the best set up if I use my desktop set up , desktop set up can make Abyss to the max their SQ

IMO


----------



## marcusd

cotnijoe said:


> Glad to hear it! I look forward to your impressions


 
 Looks like it will be dec 8th he didnt show up today


----------



## marcusd

xiangyanchou said:


> f they fix the hiss with IEMs, I'd buy one. If, additionally, they released it in silver, I'd run down there and throw cash at them.


 
 They are doing a world wide comp via FB on a copper one as we speak.


----------



## raelamb

I've said this before and I'll say it again...it does NOT hiss with my JH-16's when listening to ALAC files ant that's with the gain in the medium setting. Now of course on analogue recordings I hear tape hiss but that's supposed to be there but in between songs it is black.


----------



## Cotnijoe

It really sounds like the hiss is pretty inconsistent and that its all in the luck of the draw...


----------



## Poimandres

Does anyone have the 13's? I was wondering how it paired with them and if there was any hiss. Also is there any benefit in going balanced with the 13 or 16 fp's?


----------



## shigzeo

It has everything to do with how sensitive you are and your gear is to hiss. Some people aren't bothered by it. That said, the JH13Pro are less sensitive than a lot of earphones. I hear hiss from them with a number of sources but they are very good at suppressing the worst of it from every amp.


----------



## Poimandres

I decided to go for it and ordered a theorem today from TTVJ.  Very much looking forward to it.  How does the dac compare to the clas db?


----------



## midnightwalker

poimandres said:


> Does anyone have the 13's? I was wondering how it paired with them and if there was any hiss. Also is there any benefit in going balanced with the 13 or 16 fp's?


 
  
 Small/Acceptable hiss with 16's using single end.


----------



## Cotnijoe

poimandres said:


> I decided to go for it and ordered a theorem today from TTVJ.  Very much looking forward to it.  How does the dac compare to the clas db?


 
  
 looking forward to your impressions =)


----------



## Ultrainferno

poimandres said:


> I decided to go for it and ordered a theorem today from TTVJ.  Very much looking forward to it.  How does the dac compare to the clas db?


 
  
 It's the same DAC as the db and R, it's different from the original solo


----------



## Poimandres

Thanks, I knew it was the same dac I was wondering how the theorem dac sq compared to the db. I may be wrong but I thought that the implementations were different.


----------



## shigzeo

They are both top notch in their fields. Theorem relies on another output source, so the two (as independent units) can perform differently. I've found the Theorem's output to outperform most amps out there, so it is truly mated to a great output. You'd have to spend a lot more on an analogue output system for the dB to reach the same level.


----------



## Poimandres

Thanks. Does the dac in the theorem get power from the internal battery and not externally from usb?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Correct, it's not USB powered


----------



## rmilewsk

The 720 hissed with the JH 13 pro's for me. See my review earlier in this thread.


----------



## shigzeo

rmilewsk said:


> The 720 hissed with the JH 13 pro's for me. See my review earlier in this thread.


 
 It's not a for your or for her thing: every source hisses. It is outed by sensitive output devices. Some people are not bothered by it. Amazingly, some people get on with the likes of the AMP3Pro. The Theorem is of course a lot less hissy but as you said, it makes noise. Fortunately it is neutral noise and totally liveable.


----------



## fiascogarcia

shigzeo said:


> It's not a for your or for her thing: every source hisses. It is outed by sensitive output devices. Some people are not bothered by it. Amazingly, some people get on with the likes of the AMP3Pro. The Theorem is of course a lot less hissy but as you said, it makes noise. Fortunately it is neutral noise and totally liveable.


 
  
 Shigzeo,
 What do you mean by neutral noise?  Thanks.


----------



## rmilewsk

The hiss was not from the source but from the Theorem 720 as I verified by trying the exact same setup on another amp without any hiss. I was bothered by the hiss.The hiss was neither neutral nor livable for me. Which is why I sent the 720 back.


----------



## shigzeo

fiascogarcia said:


> Shigzeo,
> What do you mean by neutral noise?  Thanks.


 
 I'm sorry, I was vague. I meant that the noise has no peaks or troughs; as long as your batteries are charged, it is a constant volume that doesn't change on cable wiggles or the volume of the music played from the source. It is exactly the sort of noise that you want- if you have to have it. My Walkmans and AMP3Pro not to mention one or two other amps, have noise that modulates even when you are not touching the chassis or twiddling the volume pot. Those non-neutral noise signatures are annoying.


----------



## fiascogarcia

shigzeo said:


> I'm sorry, I was vague. I meant that the noise has no peaks or troughs; as long as your batteries are charged, it is a constant volume that doesn't change on cable wiggles or the volume of the music played from the source. It is exactly the sort of noise that you want- if you have to have it. My Walkmans and AMP3Pro not to mention one or two other amps, have noise that modulates even when you are not touching the chassis or twiddling the volume pot. Those non-neutral noise signatures are annoying.


 
 Got it.  I have mild tinnitus, and you basically described what I hear in near or total silence.  The slightest sound overrides it and it is not noticeable.


----------



## Poimandres

My Theorem should be here tomorrow, would there be any benefits to purchase a balanced cable for my westone 4r?


----------



## rudi0504

poimandres said:


> My Theorem should be here tomorrow, would there be any benefits to purchase a balanced cable for my westone 4r?




Yes With balance you can get more detail, wider soundstage and Fuller sound than single ended 
IMO


----------



## shigzeo

There are some provisos to the above statement, but generally balanced improves signals. Balanced armature drivers aren't designed like dynamic drivers to accept different polarities necessary for wiring for balanced input, and the overall frequency can be distorted quite a bit from the original manufacturer-intended sound. Today, most BA earphones are not designed from the ground up to accept balanced signals and therefore will sound far different to their intended sound. You may like that but it is far more likely that the earphone will not perform 'better' as will a dynamic driver wired for balanced signals. It will sound different and you may like it. If you can check, check before buying.
  
 The Theorem is a wonderful amp for both singe and balanced; it's your output device (earphone or headphone) that will determine if the signal improves or merely sounds different.


----------



## AlanYWM

shigzeo said:


> There are some provisos to the above statement, but generally balanced improves signals. Balanced armature drivers aren't designed like dynamic drivers to accept different polarities necessary for wiring for balanced input, and the overall frequency can be distorted quite a bit from the original manufacturer-intended sound. Today, most BA earphones are not designed from the ground up to accept balanced signals and therefore will sound far different to their intended sound. You may like that but it is far more likely that the earphone will not perform 'better' as will a dynamic driver wired for balanced signals. It will sound different and you may like it. If you can check, check before buying.
> 
> The Theorem is a wonderful amp for both singe and balanced; it's your output device (earphone or headphone) that will determine if the signal improves or merely sounds different.


 
 Hi Shigzeo,
  
 Firstly, thanks for explaining on the balance thingy with iems. I heard some folks mention that you will get better result using balanced cable with headphones than with iems. What is your opinion on this? Thanks in advance for your input, if any.


----------



## fiascogarcia

alanywm said:


> Hi Shigzeo,
> 
> Firstly, thanks for explaining on the balance thingy with iems. I heard some folks mention that you will get better result using balanced cable with headphones than with iems. What is your opinion on this? Thanks in advance for your input, if any.


 
  
 I think he just did, BA drivers being what's in most iem's.  Right?


----------



## Poimandres

I just got home to find that my wife had already opened my usps package from TTVJ, needless to say she wasn't happy when she discovered the bill. 
  
 That aside I am very impressed that the package is sealed, every other amp that I have purchased has not been sealed, it is also of high tensile strength and took some effort to remove.  The box slides out and I expected to see the Theorem nestled in some sort of foam to absorb shock (I am sure that USPS/FedEx/UPS do not care for the package the way that they should), although prior to opening the packaging I could feel it sliding around so I knew that this was not the case.
  
 This aside every aspect of the Theorem oozes quality it easily surpasses any of the previous amps that I have owned.  It is currently charging and I am having a hard time waiting for the charge to complete. 
  
 My Theorem actually came with the power switch on (no led so the battery was depleted) and I turned it off before charging, do all Theorems come this way?


----------



## AlanYWM

fiascogarcia said:


> I think he just did, BA drivers being what's in most iem's.  Right?


 
  
 I understand the part about BA and iem. But does that naturally mean headphones will benefit from balanced?
  
  


poimandres said:


> My Theorem actually came with the power switch on (no led so the battery was depleted) and I turned it off before charging, do all Theorems come this way?


 
 I would be surprised if that is so. I think it is usually switched off. Most amps I have encountered out of the box have at least 1/3 power left in them. I could be wrong with the Theorem.


----------



## midnightwalker

poimandres said:


> My Theorem actually came with the power switch on (no led so the battery was depleted) and I turned it off before charging, do all Theorems come this way?


 
  
 As long as still in plastic wrapped, it should be fine. Mine came with power off.


----------



## Poimandres

Hmmm it makes me wonder...everything was sealed externally and the theorem itself was sealed. Anyone else have their theorem come with the switch on?


----------



## Poimandres

I wonder if this will cause any issues to the battery or anything else. My serial number is also low 280 I believe.


----------



## Poimandres

It is certainly the best combo unit I have heard to date, however I am not sure if I will be able to get past the hiss. It reminds of low level analog hiss from a cassette or 8 track, not really as bad as from a vinyl imo. The hiss isnt loud however you can certainly hear it all the time if you listen for it which so far is the main thing that I try not to focus on however ultimately do. Maybe the best route to go would be the db with the glacier (TTVJ's deal is hard to pass up), port (the low battery life kind of nukes that) or maybe another amp. Or if it is the luck of the draw I could request another Theorem and pray it doesnt hiss.


----------



## rmilewsk

Any theorem you get will hiss exactly the same as the one you have now. If you don't want hiss buy the RSA intruder or the ALO international.


----------



## Poimandres

I was considering the ALO however isnt the output z around 43 ohms?

Shigzeo what are your opinions on the Theorem versus the International?


----------



## shigzeo

The International is ALO's most comprehensive portable. It doesn't perform as well as the Theorem does but it is a very very good machine. It is also the first ALO portable amp to not hiss much. But again, if ultimate performance is your thing, the 720 is it. Both have very powerful outputs for high ohm headphones but the Theorem extends way into the earphone level which is harder to drive for resolution.


----------



## Poimandres

Thanks, I actually emailed cypher labs and I was surprised to have had my email answered directly by David, I have just asked him if they offer any mods that may get rid of the hiss for high sensitivity low ohm iems. I expect not but will update here if they do. The Theorem is a great piece in time hopefully the hiss will become less noticeable.


----------



## Poimandres

No mod yet, however since most head fiers in the Westone 4 thread recommend using the 4r with a 100 ohm resistor I finaly decided to use the one that I purchased from Ebay.  And voila hiss gone..zero..nada..non existant, totally silent black background.  They say that the resistor fixe alot of issues with the 4r my question is would it cause any other unwanted issues other than possibly draining the Theorems battery faster?


----------



## shigzeo

I don't think you will drain the Theorem's battery any faster. True you will use a small bit more voltage to achieve the same volume level at the ear, but it should be insignificant. The resistor may also change the sound nature of the 4r because the impedance can affect the crossover circuit, which generally reacts at a certain impedance input. I've not tested FRs of resisted earphones vs. unresisted, but I know some people who have gone back and forth and noticed big changes (again, you may like it, you may not) in their earphones base sound signature. If it is worth it because hiss is gone, then good.
  
 Back in the day, a lot of amps had high Ω output. To get them to play nicely with a pair of earphones... you needed the ER4 or a resistor. That was when people found out that the resistor also changed the sound signature of the earphone.


----------



## Poimandres

Well I decided to send the Theorem back. I really wanted to keep it as it sounds phenomenal however I was unable to get past the hiss. I opted for the clas db and glacier.


----------



## Cotnijoe

poimandres said:


> Well I decided to send the Theorem back. I really wanted to keep it as it sounds phenomenal however I was unable to get past the hiss. I opted for the clas db and glacier.


 
  
 ahhh that's a shame... all these hiss talk makes me so sad...


----------



## Poimandres

It's really not that bad however OCD makes it worse. You know it's there and thus you can't help but listen for it.


----------



## shigzeo

poimandres said:


> It's really not that bad however OCD makes it worse. You know it's there and thus you can't help but listen for it.


 
 As long as you know that every single source/amp hisses, and you are prepared for that, then I hope you are happy with your decision. That used to be my primary concern. And I was never, ever, happy. Today I'm recovering- a recovering hiss hater!


----------



## Poimandres

That may be true however if there is hiss it has been in audible in my previous amps at least to me.


----------



## rmilewsk

I have tested both the RSA intruder and the ALO international with the JH 13 pros and neither one had any noticeable hiss. The 720 had very noticeable hiss.


----------



## sean76

I just ordered the 720 from Moon Audio.  Will there be hiss with over the ear or on ear headphones?  I am going to be using it for the senn 600 and Audio Technica ES10.  I won't be using any in ear headphones.


----------



## midnightwalker

sean76 said:


> I just ordered the 720 from Moon Audio.  Will there be hiss with over the ear or on ear headphones?  I am going to be using it for the senn 600 and Audio Technica ES10.  I won't be using any in ear headphones.


 
  
 Should be not for the HD600 and probably not for the ES10. Cross your fingers on it


----------



## sean76

Thanks. Now you are making me nervous. Why would such a highly recommended product have such a flaw? I was under the impression that it only has issues with the in ear headphones. Guess I was wrong.


----------



## midnightwalker

sean76 said:


> Thanks. Now you are making me nervous. Why would such a highly recommended product have such a flaw? I was under the impression that it only has issues with the in ear headphones. Guess I was wrong.


 
  
 Nah, I do not think it is a flaw. Even with the earphones, I still consider the hiss at acceptable level _(much softer and lower than RXMk3)._ Do not worry much about the ES10, I am just not sure as I never listen it with the 720. The HD600 impedance is too high to produce hiss. With iems around 90ohms or higher, I hear no hiss.


----------



## SoundMinded Man

Greetings All,
  
      I am a head fi rookie and this is in fact my first post.  I have been paying attention to this thread since its inception and it has been fun to see it grow.  I have taken the plunge and purchased a theorem last week from TTVJ.  It is my first external DAC as I have previously only listened to music directly through a macbook pro retina/iphone 5.  Right now all I have is the Phonak Audeo PFE 232 earphones to test it.  While my computer's direct out actually sounds very good, my initial impressions are that the theorem has unlocked a warmth, depth and clarity to familiar songs making my entire library feel uncharted...very exciting.  
      For the record, there is very, very low hiss on the low amp stage; however, I have found that the sound-stage and overall clarity drastically improves when I set the source player volume at around 25% and bump the amp to Medium with volume cranked or even High with volume at about 40%.  To my ears, as I increase the power of the amp, the music gets much brighter/punchier  (which can be good or bad depending on the song/genre) but also WAY more spacious and detailed  leading to a few of those holy SH*! moments that vindicate the price of purchase.   Unfortunately the hiss does also increase significantly on the higher gain stages.  So.... couple questions:
  
 1  Am I just hearing things or does the source volume precut + higher amplitude usually lead to better sound stage and clarity?
  
 2 Are the 232's worthy of this rig or would the Fiio E17 essentially provide similar benefits relative to the sound quality ceiling of the IEMs. 
  
 3 (This is the main question I'd hope to spark a thread discussion)
     What Open Ear desktop cans do you think would synergize  best with the theorem?
    
 I am looking for something in the $400 – $600 range and listen to a wide variety of music from 70s rock to modern trance.  My current go to album is a 24/96 vinyl rip of Herbie Hancock's Man-Child... so funky and creamy. Though, n the same listening session  earlier today  I also listened to Brothers in Arms and Random Access Memories.  So I really want something that is highly versatile and universally compatible with all music and movies.. 
  
 right now the sennheiser HD 600 is selling on Amazon for $400… Any thoughts?
  
 thanks so much and sorry for the long-winded post... I'm still a newb


----------



## sean76

Thanks for your response.  I am okay with soft hiss.  Once the music plays, I am pretty sure I can't hear it.  That's perfectly acceptable.  Any good portable headphones you would recommend to go with the 720?


----------



## Cotnijoe

sean76 said:


> I just ordered the 720 from Moon Audio.  Will there be hiss with over the ear or on ear headphones?  I am going to be using it for the senn 600 and Audio Technica ES10.  I won't be using any in ear headphones.


 
  
 tell us how it goes! im still very much interested in the theorem despite being an iem guy


----------



## Poimandres

I just received the clas db and glacier combo from TTVJ, I must say Todd is definitely another great guy to deal with.  There is no hiss whatsoever with the combo and my 4R's...I forgot how great the Glacier sounds and adding the db I dont believe I am missing anything from the Theorem except for an all in one device and of course the hiss.


----------



## midnightwalker

poimandres said:


> I just received the clas db and glacier combo from TTVJ, I must say Todd is definitely another great guy to deal with.  There is no hiss whatsoever with the combo and my 4R's...I forgot how great the Glacier sounds and adding the db I dont believe I am missing anything from the Theorem except for an all in one device and of course the hiss.


 
  
 Congratz, it is a great combo.


----------



## fiascogarcia

poimandres said:


> I just received the clas db and glacier combo from TTVJ, I must say Todd is definitely another great guy to deal with.  There is no hiss whatsoever with the combo and my 4R's...I forgot how great the Glacier sounds and adding the db I dont believe I am missing anything from the Theorem except for an all in one device and of course the hiss.


 
  
 Good to know.  I never thought the W4's were all that sensitive, and I know we all have different levels of tolerance. Still, might wait to see if CL creates any revisions as they did with the DB.


----------



## Poimandres

I was emailing David before making my decision to send the Theorem back and they are not offering a mod or planning a revision anytime soon iirc.


----------



## midnightwalker

Why don't you try the impedance adapter, instead?


----------



## Poimandres

I realize that it is supposed to help the 4r however I really only use iems and may order the jh13fps soon and I do not wish to utilize an impedance adapter on all iems that may effect the sound just to get rid of the hiss. Besides I really like the glacier and the overall size is smaller than the Theorem.


----------



## rudi0504

To night i found another best portable Set Up , that really can drive My Abyss 1266 to excellent sound quality and have Power full to drive My Abyss 1266 and No distorsion , these Two best set Up are coming from Cypher Labs product

First set Up is :

Source : iPhone 4s mod
Dac : Cypher Labs Class Solo tactical design
Amp : ALO Rx 3 B



Second set Up is :

Source : iPhone 4s mod
Dac / Amp : Theorem 730 In This set Up as My dac
Amp : RSA The Intruder



These Two best set Up are runcing In Balance RSA
Abyss 3 Pin Balance > 3 Pin Female balance to male 4 balance > 4 Pin Balance To rsa going to My Intruder or Alo Rx 3 B

Overall : SQ are like desktop Amps With Powerful SQ wothout distorsion .
Until now these Two are My best set Up to drive Abyss 1266

IMO


----------



## rudi0504

sean76 said:


> Thanks for your response.  I am okay with soft hiss.  Once the music plays, I am pretty sure I can't hear it.  That's perfectly acceptable.  Any good portable headphones you would recommend to go with the 720?




Please try 
Audio Technica ESW 11 ltd 
Ultrasone Sig Pro over the ear portable Heaphone 

These two are excellent with my Theorem 720


----------



## rudi0504

cotnijoe said:


> tell us how it goes! im still very much interested in the theorem despite being an iem guy




With BA driver like 
Fit Ear MH 335 DW 
JH 16 pro 
UM Miracle 

My Theorem got hiss 

With BA plus Dynamic Driver
Tralucent 1+2 I heard minimal hiss
UM 3 DD I heard minimal hiss

When the music play this hiss does not disturb my enjoy with Theorem
The hiss is not as laud from my ALO Rx 3 B

IMO


----------



## rudi0504

midnightwalker said:


> Why don't you try the impedance adapter, instead?




I tried with my 75 ohm adapter for my ER 4 P , the result is no hiss anymore 
But I font like to use 75 ohm Adapter , the SQ is not as good without adapter 
I hear everything like compress and not so free
IMO


----------



## Cotnijoe

rudi0504 said:


> With BA driver like
> Fit Ear MH 335 DW
> JH 16 pro
> UM Miracle
> ...


 
  
 thanks for the input! Helps a lot


----------



## sean76

Got my Theorem 720 today.  It was a demo model and had been broken in already.  The DAC is very good.  The sound stage is excellent.  It is definitely a big improvement over my Fiio 07K.  In fact, it reminded me a lot of my home audio DAC, such as my Theta Va.  The amplifier has very clean sounding.  It is neutral with lots of details.
  
 I had to install driver on my Windows 8 machine.  I tried several headphones (Audio Technica, Senn 380/600) and did not hear any hiss.  At high gain, I could hear a bit of noise but barely.


----------



## sean76

Thanks for the recommendations of the Audio Technica ESW 11 ltd and Ultrasone Sig Pro.  I am not sure if there are any local dealers that carry them.  I was at Magnolia (Best Buy) today and noticed they have lots of quality headphones, including the PSB and B&W P7.  I will see if I can bring my setup there to test drive them.


----------



## shigzeo

To everyone reading this thread: 
  
 You will NOT hear any hiss with any normal HiFi headphones. You will only hear hiss with sensitive to medium-senstive earphones and some sensitive portable headphones. If you could hear noise through a Sennheiser H600, your amp would either be damaged or the most storied audio creation this side of Single Power. No one would listen to it. Theorem has similar levels of noise as the ALO Rx MKIII, meaning it is palatable with most sensitive earphones but audible.
  
 It is a highly resolving amp- perhaps the highest resolving amp currently out there. The best part is that its DAC is great and allows you to skip the player's internal DAC. Plug and play with most computers, and some Android devices and pretty much all current iDevices. Better yet: all that great sound from a great interface like the iPhone. Killer hardware application? You bet. One of the best? Yessir. Best? Very possible. Putting up with a bit of noise is well worth it in my books.
  
 The only thing I wish Cypher would fix is the volume pot. Volume control is best when the entire travel is used rather than just a portion. That would help eliminate L/R balance at low volumes, too. If that can be addressed, the 720 will simply be unstoppable and probably THE benchmark for years- or until Cypher debut 1440! (BTW, 1440 is a joke. I have no idea what will happen in the future.)


----------



## sean76

I recently purchased 720cdemo from an authorized dealer and the package came with missing cables. I emailed both the dealer and cypher labs. David at cypher labs emailed me back right away asking for my shipping address. Free of charge and already shipping to me. That is superb service! I am very impress. And I cannot hear the noise with any of my full sized or portable headphones. Sounds great and lived up to the hype. Now let's hope it works with my Note 2.


----------



## sean76

I recently used the output of the theorem and plug it thur auxiliary in my car stereo. I used an old iphone with Spotify. The sound was surprisingly good.


----------



## Austin Morrow




----------



## sean76

Which headphone is that? How do you like it?


----------



## Austin Morrow

sean76 said:


> Which headphone is that? How do you like it?


 
  
 HiFiMAN HE-500. And, it sounds absolutely pristine thus far.


----------



## midnightwalker

austin morrow said:


>


 
  
 It looks beautiful. Congratz!


----------



## Austin Morrow

First impressions (my full review will come later). The Theorem 720 absolutely rips apart any poor recordings I have. All of my music is ALAC on my iPhone, but I'm starting to notice what's good and what's not good. The level of detail extraction and speed is something I've never heard that's this capable in a _portable_ DAC/amp combo.


----------



## rmilewsk

Putting up with the hiss I heard coming from the 720 while listening with the JH audio 13 pros was not worth it to me. So I returned the 720 and now use an amp with the 13 pros that has no noticeable hiss.


----------



## PolkManiac

austin morrow said:


> First impressions (my full review will come later). The Theorem 720 absolutely rips apart any poor recordings I have. All of my music is ALAC on my iPhone, but I'm starting to notice what's good and what's not good. The level of detail extraction and speed is something I've never heard that's this capable in a _portable_ DAC/amp combo.



Agreed, I would not want to use this amp with a really fast headphone, it's best when mated with a forgiving headphone or something maybe a little laid back or warm sounding. It sounds great with my Momentum, P7, HD600 and even HE-500, but is just too much with my Grado and HD800. I'd love to hear this with some LCD cans...


----------



## marcusd

I really enjoyed it with my T70P actually. Very fast, clean and precise.


----------



## sean76

Where do you get your balanced XLR to RSA cable?  Most headphones come with the standard XLR.  I really don't want to spend 100 dollars on the cable.  Any decent place to get a cable for a good price?


----------



## Ultrainferno

sean76 said:


> Where do you get your balanced XLR to RSA cable?  Most headphones come with the standard XLR.  I really don't want to spend 100 dollars on the cable.  Any decent place to get a cable for a good price?


 
  
 Why not just use one of the Neutrik connectors?
  
 http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/circular-adapters/
  
 Maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## sean76

ultrainferno said:


> Why not just use one of the Neutrik connectors?
> 
> http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/circular-adapters/
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood.


 
 I need something like this.  http://d1p66qganyivs8.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/s/i/silver_dragon_iem_adapter_rsa_1.jpg
  
 I didn't find any RSA adapter from your link.  
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Oh ok, I read RCA


----------



## sean76

ultrainferno said:


> Oh ok, I read RCA


 
 Right.  I figured that was the case.  Thanks anyways.
 I am looking for 4-pin XLR balanced to RSA balanced.  Want to pick up an alpha dog and deciding if I should bother w/ the balanced but I can't even find the conversion cable.  
  
 Moon audio has a mini XLR to RSA but I haven't seen a regular 4pin XLR to RSA.  
  
 One positive thing about the Centrance H8 is it has all the options but I really like the battery life of the Theorem.  I don't mind the hiss so much but I am pretty annoyed by the imbalance of the volume control at high gain.  It is very obvious.


----------



## sean76

rudi0504 said:


> To night i found another best portable Set Up , that really can drive My Abyss 1266 to excellent sound quality and have Power full to drive My Abyss 1266 and No distorsion , these Two best set Up are coming from Cypher Labs product
> 
> First set Up is :
> 
> ...


 
 Hi there,
  
 Looking for the 4 pin Balance to RSA.  Where did you get yours?


----------



## PolkManiac

sean76 said:


> Right.  I figured that was the case.  Thanks anyways.
> I am looking for 4-pin XLR balanced to RSA balanced.  Want to pick up an alpha dog and deciding if I should bother w/ the balanced but I can't even find the conversion cable.
> 
> Moon audio has a mini XLR to RSA but I haven't seen a regular 4pin XLR to RSA.
> ...


 
 I'm in the same boat as you, so hopefully someone here will help us out.


----------



## sean76

polkmaniac said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, so hopefully someone here will help us out.


 
 I mean I don't even mind paying but there isn't even one available.  I guess custom make one?


----------



## rudi0504

sean76 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Looking for the 4 pin Balance to RSA.  Where did you get yours?




Hi Sean76
I bought my RSA balance connector from mouser electronic on line store 

Please write email to below email address :

Mouser@e.mouser.com


----------



## sean76

rudi0504 said:


> Hi Sean76
> I bought my RSA balance connector from mouser electronic on line store
> 
> Please write email to below email address :
> ...


 
 So was it custom cable?  And how much?
  
 Thanks for the info!


----------



## rudi0504

sean76 said:


> So was it custom cable?  And how much?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info!




I bought from Mouser only RSA balance connector
My diy friend made for me balance 4 pin to RSA 
I paid about 150 USD 

If you live in USA , please ask moon audio or ALO or Norse Audio or whiplash Audio for the custom cable


----------



## Austin Morrow

My review is up.
  

  
 http://audioexcursions.com/files/cypher-labs-theorem-720-dac-review.html


----------



## Ultrainferno

Shameless plug. lol


----------



## ksk75

we have a great time 
 sorry for the bad quality)


----------



## fiascogarcia

austin morrow said:


> My review is up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice website, BTW, very professional.  I enjoy your reviews!


----------



## refault

What's the size comparison (roughly) when compared to the Fostex HP-P1? Is the Theorem 720 somewhat "pocketable" like the HP-P1 is for quick, on-the-go uses? It looks a bit longer and slightly thicker than the HP-P1, but I'm just wondering if it would be small/compact enough to be able to somewhat comfortably fit in a pants (or jeans) pocket when connected/banded to an iPhone like the HP-P1 is.
  
 If it isn't that much bigger than the HP-P1, hmm... I might have to think about maybe getting a new replacement for my Fostex for portable use. It seems very attractive due to the battery life, although I'm still sort of conflicted on whether or not I should save up for the Duet (and match it with my CLAS -dB due to less hiss with IEMs, still using the HP-P1 for portable use) or if the Theorem might be better for just a little more. Hm...


----------



## midnightwalker

Both the HP-P1 and 720 never fit my Jean. The 720 is just a little bit thicker than the HP-P1 but the battery is double and it charges your iDevices. Battery life is the main reason I quit using the HP-P1 so soon. It is ridiculous when I have to spend 4 hours to charge but can only listen to it for 6-7 hours (ymmv). Both combo fit well in my jacket/hoodie pocket, but again not jean's


----------



## IceClass

midnightwalker said:


> Both the HP-P1 and 720 never fit my Jean. The 720 is just a little bit thicker than the HP-P1 but the battery is double and it charges your iDevices. Battery life is the main reason I quit using the HP-P1 so soon. It is ridiculous when I have to spend 4 hours to charge but can only listen to it for 6-7 hours (ymmv). Both combo fit well in my jacket/hoodie pocket, but again not jean's


 
  
  
 One advantage of the HP-P1 over the 720 is that the Fostex can be recharged as you use it.
 I often take a small battery pack on a long journey just in case. If the battery fails, I can plug the battery pack into the USB DC In socket and keep listening.
 I like my Cypher labs equipment but AC chargers suck in a globalized mobile world.


----------



## WizardKnight

I wonder how the Chord Hugo which is much more expensive will compare to the Theorem 720?


----------



## midnightwalker

iceclass said:


> One advantage of the HP-P1 over the 720 is that the Fostex can be recharged as you use it.
> I often take a small battery pack on a long journey just in case. If the battery fails, I can plug the battery pack into the USB DC In socket and keep listening.
> I like my Cypher labs equipment but AC chargers suck in a globalized mobile world.


 
  
 Do you think 15 hours music for a day is not enough? If you have 15 hours to listen music a day, you must be too rich to work or you have nothing else to do. You can always charge it when you get home. But yes, I agree, it would be better if the 720 can be charged via USB port while functions as a USB DAC.
  
 By the way, there are many reasons that made me part with the Fostex are:
  
 - No USB DAC function, the DAC section can only use for iDevice
 - Easy to scratch top and bottom
 - Built-in amp is too weak


----------



## refault

Mids sound a lot more lush/detailed in a sense (less "distant" sounding) than the CLAS -dB + ALO Rx Mk3-B+ combo (in balanced back-end mode) using the IE800, but that is just my intiial impressions/comparison so far. I was actually quite surprised at how "small" the Theorem 720 actually is (it seems less "fat" in terms of horizontal width than the Fostex HP-P1 or CLAS/ALO, although a bit longer than both the Fostex and original CLAS), it seems it might be slightly more "pocketable" (or at least easier to handle in portable-use situations) than the Fostex HP-P1 even.
  
 The background "hiss" with the IE800 still exists as on the CLAS -dB + ALO Rx Mk3-B+ combo, but it's completely tolerable and I don't mind it. I'd say that the levels of hiss on both the Rx Mk3-B+ and Theorem 720 w/ the IE800 are just about the same, but disappears/is easy to ignore once you have music playing (even during "quiet" passages.)


----------



## refault

The only major "issue" I have so far when using the Theorem 720 w/ my iPhone 3GS is that it tends to pick up cellular interference quite a bit while in use... the Fostex HP-P1 that I've used has never exhibited any issues like this when it comes to cellular/RF/etc interference, so it's quite irritating for use with an iPhone at this point. I was wondering if there are any ways to reduce the RF/cellular interference without having to turn 3G off/"airplane mode" when listening to the Theorem 720?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Mine picks up a lot of radio frequency too from phones in the train. I love the Theorem but the hiss, channel imbalance and this rf problem shouldn't happen in a product of this class


----------



## IceClass

ultrainferno said:


> Mine picks up a lot of radio frequency too from phones in the train. I love the Theorem but the hiss, channel imbalance and this rf problem shouldn't happen in a product of this class


 
  
 And it's not available in silver!


----------



## deltasun

I'm really interested in purchasing the Theorem 720. Where's the best place to purchase and do these ever go on any kind of sale?


----------



## TheAnderman

@Deltasun

I just got mine last week from Todd the Vinyl Junkie. They shipped it hours after I placed my order and even upgraded my shipping for free!

I have seen a demo model for sale for $650, but I've never seen them on sale before. 

Check out TTVJ: http://www.ttvjaudio.com/Cypher_Labs_Theorem_720_DAC_Headphone_Amplifier_p/cyp0000014.htm


----------



## deltasun

^^ Thanks, I was afraid of that.


----------



## rudi0504

deltasun said:


> ^^ Thanks, I was afraid of that.




Last week I saw moon audio got promotion all cypher labs product discount 10%
Please send email to moon audio , maybe you can get the 10 % discount now 
Good luck


www.Moon-Audio.com
One last day of Cypher Labs 10% off sale....for the Algorhythm Solo -R, -dB and Theorem 720 Headphone amp/dac....


----------



## deltasun

rudi0504 said:


> Last week I saw moon audio got promotion all cypher labs product discount 10%
> Please send email to moon audio , maybe you can get the 10 % discount now
> Good luck
> 
> ...




Thanks, Rudi...looks like the Theorem 720 sale is over. I might still ping them if I decide to go with this in the next few.


----------



## purpleom

Hi, guys!

I want to order Theorem 720 DAC Headphone Amplifier (Copper). So I would really appreciate it if you could help me to find the answer to 3 questions.

1. Does Theorem 720 DAC Headphone Amplifier (Copper) bypass the iPod’s amp and dac?

2. Do I have to buy a line out dock (LOD) cable if I want to use 720 DAC Headphone Amplifier (Copper) with iPod Classic which has 30 pin connector or LOD cable is included in the package contents? What LOD cable can you recommend?

3. Will my Shure SE535 earphones sound good with Theorem?

Thx!


----------



## Ultrainferno

purpleom said:


> Hi, guys!
> 
> I want to order Theorem 720 DAC Headphone Amplifier (Copper). So I would really appreciate it if you could help me to find the answer to 3 questions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 1. that's the whole point
 2. It's in the box
 3. If they're not sensitive iems


----------



## midnightwalker

It has hiss but soft and small so it doesn't bother me much. If you want to find a better amp dedicated to the IEMs, take the DUET instead.


----------



## rudi0504

My simple audiophile sound quality set Up For night listening

Source : iPhone 5s US version
Dac / Amp : Cypherlabs Theorem 720 Copper
Headphone : Audeze LCD 3
Cable : LCD 3 With Stephan Audio Art 4 Pin Balanace
Adapter 4 Pin Female To rsa balance
Lightning to mini USB Stock from Cypher Labs
Music : WAV file


----------



## redstar

Has anybody tried this with the;
  
 Beyer T5p
 LCD-X


----------



## rudi0504

redstar said:


> Has anybody tried this with the;
> 
> Beyer T5p
> LCD-X




I have T 5 p and LCD 2 rev 3 and LCD 3
I heard LCD X demo unit 

Theorem can drive LCD 3 , that can drive T5p and LCD X in very good sound quality .
LCD X is very easy to drive headphone , it is easier to drive than LCD 3


----------



## redstar

rudi0504 said:


> I have T 5 p and LCD 2 rev 3 and LCD 3
> I heard LCD X demo unit
> 
> Theorem can drive LCD 3 , that can drive T5p and LCD X in very good sound quality .
> LCD X is very easy to drive headphone , it is easier to drive than LCD 3





Many thanks for this  

Im having a tough choice between the theorem and hifi m8


----------



## PolkManiac

The HiFi M8 is more versatile but is larger, the Theorem is smaller and has a much longer battery life and will charge idevices, but doesn't have as many connections. They both sound really great, so it comes down to what you want.


----------



## rudi0504

redstar said:


> Many thanks for this
> 
> Im having a tough choice between the theorem and hifi m8




What is your music genre ?
What kind of headphone do you want to pair with ?
Is that two T5p and LCD XC?


----------



## redstar

Its the LCD-X. Thats my primary concern. Im hoping it would work well as a desktop solution, as i will use it slightly more at home than on the road. The LCD-X are my main cans.

When i take it on the road, i will use the Sennheiser momentums.
The T5P was just something i was considering, however i would probably get an IEM over that, such as the shure SE846.

Music i listen to is, fast and aggressive tech-punk and hardcore punk. 
I also listen to a lot of progressive instrumental soundscape music and 80s inspired synthwave.


----------



## rudi0504

redstar said:


> Its the LCD-X. Thats my primary concern. Im hoping it would work well as a desktop solution, as i will use it slightly more at home than on the road. The LCD-X are my main cans.
> 
> When i take it on the road, i will use the Sennheiser momentums.
> The T5P was just something i was considering, however i would probably get an IEM over that, such as the shure SE846.
> ...




Theorem is excellent Dac / Amp for IDevice can drive your headphone like LCD X , T5p and your Momentum in audiophile SQ .
I think for Shure 846 you can hear the hiss , this the only minus from Theorem is hiss for BA driver iems or ciem

IMO


----------



## midnightwalker

redstar said:


> Music i listen to is, fast and aggressive tech-punk and hardcore punk.
> I also listen to a lot of progressive instrumental soundscape music and 80s inspired synthwave.


 
 For your taste of music, you will hardly recognize the hiss from the Theorem.


----------



## Scorpion667

Just snagged the 720 for use with my iphone 5. A change of pants is in order.
  
 I'm coming from an amped iphone 5 line out (30pin adapter, L9, E12) which sounded rather good, but amping chit simply equals a slightly larger chit 'nomsayin?
  
 It's like going from a '99 Honda to a 2014 Corvette Stingray
  
 I need time to absorb what's going on. I'm left rather speechless with the improvement. Hold me guys


----------



## midnightwalker

scorpion667 said:


> Just snagged the 720 for use with my iphone 5. A change of pants is in order.
> 
> I'm coming from an amped iphone 5 line out (30pin adapter, L9, E12) which sounded rather good, but amping chit simply equals a slightly larger chit 'nomsayin?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Lol such a nice impression


----------



## Scorpion667

midnightwalker said:


> Lol such a nice impression


 
 Thank you sir. 
  
 On a serious note, I'm looking for either an aftermarket, custom made or parts to create a custom length Lightning to USB Mini-B connector between my iphone and Theorem. Any help is GREATLY appreciated!
  
 I'm familiar with soldering, shrink wrapping and the like. Preliminary searching has lead me to believe I'd be more likely to have a threesome with 10/10 Russian twins than find the cable I'm looking for. 
  
 Even if you know a place that sells the stock lightning cable (that comes with the unit) would be useful as I can most likely butcher it and make it shorter. I know it comes with two lightning cables, but one is 100% defective out of the box. Maybe I'll bother the local store or Cypher Labs for one later...


----------



## Currawong

I've borrowed a Theorem 720, which I've been using for a while. It makes for a very nice DAC and amp for full-sized headphones, or just as a DAC for a larger amp. Not so great with IEMs, as they have a lot of hiss.
  
​


----------



## big mac

i  thinking about buying theorem 720 amp is it worth a upgrade over the e12 amp . my headphone that i own are sennheiser 600 and mad dogs.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Of course


----------



## big mac

is that the best portable amp to drive my headphones. it lot of money to spend on a portable amp.


----------



## Ultrainferno

It's not only an amp. You can look at the Duet, C5, International and a whole bunch of others


----------



## big mac

what about centrance m8 as portable amp and dac.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I prefer the Theorem over the Hifi m8, more refined and smaller


----------



## big mac

do you own theorem 720 and what headphone do own.


----------



## Ultrainferno

of course and about 30


----------



## rudi0504

Comparison between iPhone 5s vs Samsung note 3 use USB Audio Player Pro

Source : IPhone 5s
Samsung Note 3 use USB Audio Player Pro
Dac / Amp : Theorem 720
Headphone : Ultrasone Signature PRO 
Music file for all : WAV 
Gain in Theorem : medium
Equalizer : NO 

Connection via USB :
iPhone 5s use lightning to mini USB : no problem all the time 
Samsung Note 3 use micro USB to mini USB : I must try 
Many times to have connection 

Sound Quality : 
iPhone 5s 
High : more crisp than Note 3
Mid : clear and clear and not so forward like note 3
Note 3 has fuller sound less clarity compare to iPhone 5 s
Bass : better detail and clean bass , but note 3 has better bass impact and better bass body 
Separation : iPhone 5s has better separation
Soundstage : iPhone 5s has wider , Note 3 has better depth 

Overall :

Samsung note 3 with USB Audio Player Pro has fuller sound than iPhone 5 s , 
iPhone 5 s has better clarity and better music separation 

These two have their strong and weak point 

I prefer Iphone 5s than Samsung Note 3 , because I love
Detail and clarity , for long term music hear Note 3 can make my ear fast fatigue , because More forward and less clarity 

IMO


----------



## Ultrainferno

Guys, I just got a Samsung S4 with the latest update. what do I have to do to make it work with my Theorem?
 I don't know too much about phones as DAPs. Thank you for the help


----------



## midnightwalker

ultrainferno said:


> Guys, I just got a Samsung S4 with the latest update. what do I have to do to make it work with my Theorem?
> I don't know too much about phones as DAPs. Thank you for the help


 
  
 You can check below for the instruction:


> *Q: How do I connect to Android devices?*
> *A: *Tracks of resolutions up to 24/192 now play from Android devices through the Theorem 720 DAC or AlgoRhythm Solo –dB, at full resolution in asynchronous mode. Simply load tracks, or entire folders of tracks, onto a micro SD card, connect the devices and play tracks using a USB audio application USB Audio Recorder Pro.
> 
> Equipment needed:
> ...


----------



## Ultrainferno

midnightwalker said:


> You can check below for the instruction:


 
  
 thank you very much for that. So you always need to buy the software to make it work. Appreciate the effort.


----------



## patrickgerry

Can someone recommend good IEMs for the Theorem around $200-$300.  I am very much enjoying the theorems with full headphones but would want to try IEMS.
  
 TIA


----------



## Scorpion667

patrickgerry said:


> Can someone recommend good IEMs for the Theorem around $200-$300.  I am very much enjoying the theorems with full headphones but would want to try IEMS.
> 
> TIA


 
  
 The Theorem tends to have quite a bit of background noise with IEM's. I've yet to find an IEM where there's no background noise when used with Theorem 720. I can't be bothered as I prefer full size cans but I did try some Shure SE535's, Atrio M7's, Hippo VB's, some Westone's (forget the name) and they all hiss more or less (obviously on lowest gain setting).


----------



## midnightwalker

scorpion667 said:


> The Theorem tends to have quite a bit of background noise with IEM's. I've yet to find an IEM where there's no background noise when used with Theorem 720. I can't be bothered as I prefer full size cans but I did try some Shure SE535's, Atrio M7's, Hippo VB's, some Westone's (forget the name) and they all hiss more or less (obviously on lowest gain setting).


 
 Did you try it with the Earsonics SM64?


----------



## Scorpion667

midnightwalker said:


> Did you try it with the Earsonics SM64?


 

 My local headphone shop has some. I'll see if he has a pair on display that I can try out. Going there tomorrow so I will let you know.


----------



## singleended58

I have ordered a Theorem 720 copper and will pair with GS4/DX50/RWA ipod 5.5G and use the following can and IEMs:
1) he-400/RSA balanced Norse audio Sculd 4.
2) Heir 4ai via Toxic Cable SP SE
3) UM Miracle via Toxic Cable SW SE
4) Either Heir 4ai or UM Miracleb via Toxic Cable SW RSA balanced
5) Shure SE535 clear.


----------



## rudi0504

ultrainferno said:


> thank you very much for that. So you always need to buy the software to make it work. Appreciate the effort.




It is better please buy from The same company : USB Audio Player Pro 
UAPP is The best USB audio Player yet , has The best SQ and has better UI than USB Audio Recorder Pro 

IMO


----------



## rudi0504

patrickgerry said:


> Can someone recommend good IEMs for the Theorem around $200-$300.  I am very much enjoying the theorems with full headphones but would want to try IEMS.
> 
> TIA







scorpion667 said:


> The Theorem tends to have quite a bit of background noise with IEM's. I've yet to find an IEM where there's no background noise when used with Theorem 720. I can't be bothered as I prefer full size cans but I did try some Shure SE535's, Atrio M7's, Hippo VB's, some Westone's (forget the name) and they all hiss more or less (obviously on lowest gain setting).







midnightwalker said:


> Did you try it with the Earsonics SM64?







scorpion667 said:


> My local headphone shop has some. I'll see if he has a pair on display that I can try out. Going there tomorrow so I will let you know.




HI All 
It is not so many iems that not so much hiss pair With Theorem, 
Below are iems that less hiss With Theorem 

Earsonic SM 64 v1 has 112 Ohm and v2 has 90 Ohm 
Etymotic Er 4 B 100 Ohm 
High End iem 
Tralucent Audio 1+2 
Note : 
It is very important Dont buy Only BA driver With Low impedance ,For sure got hiss 

So Far This Two are very Good pair With Theorem With almost zero hiss 
Earsonic like Midnightwalker already recomand 

IMO


----------



## Ultrainferno

rudi0504 said:


> It is better please buy from The same company : USB Audio Player Pro
> UAPP is The best USB audio Player yet , has The best SQ and has better UI than USB Audio Recorder Pro
> 
> IMO


 
  
 In the mean time I have this installed


----------



## rudi0504

ultrainferno said:


> In the mean time I have this installed




Congrats you Choose The right ones , i have UARP First than buy UAPP


----------



## midnightwalker

Is there any other way that we do not need to install the apps but the USB Dac still work? I do not need to install any app for the Glacier but its DAC works fine with Android devices such as Samsung S3/4, HTC One...or even the Ipad 3 or higher via CCK.


----------



## Ultrainferno

My A200P/AK10 also works fine straight from the phone with the standard music player. thats specific for Cypher Labs


----------



## rudi0504

midnightwalker said:


> Is there any other way that we do not need to install the apps but the USB Dac still work? I do not need to install any app for the Glacier but its DAC works fine with Android devices such as Samsung S3/4, HTC One...or even the Ipad 3 or higher via CCK.




No , With Theorem you need third Party app like USB Audio Player Pro or USB Audio Recorder Pro


----------



## rudi0504

Theorem best pair With iPhone 5 S USA or Ausie version 

Source : iPhone 5 S USA version 
Dac / Amp : Cypher Labs Theorem 720 
Headphone : V Moda M 100 
Cable : Cypher Labs Stock lightning to mini USB 
Music file : WAV 

High : very Clear and clean sounding High With very Good detail 
Mid : sweet and Clear mid, you can hear trompet like real 
Bass : very Good and Deep bass impact, With Fast bass Speed 
Separation : very Good that i can detect The music placement very Good 
Soundstage : Wide and very Good Depth 

Overal : This Theorem set Up With iPhone 5 S are The best Synergy For portable set Up , you can pair With many headphone sound qyality very Good , This is My allrounder One box dac/amp set Up 

IMO


----------



## singleended58

Rudi, what about pairing up the Theorem with GS4 since the SQ of GS4 is not bad at all? Will try them and let you know.


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Rudi, what about pairing up the Theorem with GS4 since the SQ of GS4 is not bad at all? Will try them and let you know.




Did you Mean Samsung S 4 ?


----------



## rudi0504

I want Share My personal comparison between 
Theorem dac / amp vs Theorem as Dac use line out + Duet 

Source : iPhone 5 s
Dac / Amp : Theorem as Dac and amp 
Theorem as dac Only 
Amp : Duet 
Headphone : VModa M 100

Theorem as dac / Amp :
High : more Crisp and Clear 
Mid : more Clear but not as thick plus Duet 
Bass : is tighter and cleaner compare plus DUET , bass more Boomy 
Separation : better Theorem as stand Alone 
Soundstage : Theorem as stand Alone is better more Wide and Depth .
Plus Duet soundstage so narrow 

Overall : Theorem plus Duet has not so Good Synergy 

It is better Theorem as stand Alone dac/ amp or

Cypher Class solo dB / Class solo original + Duet 

IMO


----------



## singleended58

rudi0504 said:


> Did you Mean Samsung S 4 ?




Yessir!


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Yessir!




HI 
Please Share Your impression With S4 Here I Dont have S4


----------



## singleended58

rudi0504 said:


> HI
> Please Share Your impression With S4 Here I Dont have S4




Rudi, I suppose to receive my copper Theorem by tomorrow and try to listen with Samsung S4 then let you know.


----------



## kusanagi119

Dear all,
  
 I want to make mini balanced cable to use with Theorem. Anyone can share the link that sell mini balanced connector. Thanks all


----------



## Cotnijoe

http://plussoundaudio.com/diy/connectors.html
  
 Theyre Kobiconn connectors


----------



## singleended58

cotnijoe said:


> http://plussoundaudio.com/diy/connectors.html
> 
> Theyre Kobiconn connectors




Too expensive $9.99. I bought at Mouser a lot cheaper.


----------



## Cotnijoe

Go with what he said then haha ^


----------



## patrickgerry

rudi0504 said:


> HI All
> It is not so many iems that not so much hiss pair With Theorem,
> Below are iems that less hiss With Theorem
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Rudi,  I will check out the Etymotic ER 4B.


----------



## rudi0504

patrickgerry said:


> Thanks Rudi,  I will check out the Etymotic ER 4B.




And i Forget discountinued Phonak 232 is very Good too
You can Find on sell item


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Rudi, what about pairing up the Theorem with GS4 since the SQ of GS4 is not bad at all? Will try them and let you know.




I have paired Theorem + Samsung vs IPhone 5s

The Winner is : Theorem + iPhone 5s

iPhone 5 S
High : more Crisp and better clarity 
Mid : more weight and Clearer 
Bass : better bass detail and bass impact , Samsung Note 3 The bass a bit Boomy 
Separation : iPhone 5 S is better. Thsn Note 3
IMO


----------



## singleended58

Got my Theorem copper today then hook up with ipod 32gb and realize that it could not work with 5.5g imod and Samsung GS4 (maybe needs a special connectors for both???).
Listen to it and very impressed but maybe Theorem needs more time to break in. Anyone knows any connectors could connect the Theorem to GS4? Thanks.


----------



## Scorpion667

singleended58 said:


> Got my Theorem copper today then hook up with ipod 32gb and realize that it could not work with 5.5g imod and Samsung GS4 (maybe needs a special connectors for both???).
> Listen to it and very impressed but maybe Theorem needs more time to break in. Anyone knows any connectors could connect the Theorem to GS4? Thanks.


 
 Read their documentation it will show you how to connect it... you need an app to make it work. The info is also in this thread a couple pages back you just have to search for it. ipod 5g and 5.5g do not work. 7g only


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Got my Theorem copper today then hook up with ipod 32gb and realize that it could not work with 5.5g imod and Samsung GS4 (maybe needs a special connectors for both???).
> Listen to it and very impressed but maybe Theorem needs more time to break in. Anyone knows any connectors could connect the Theorem to GS4? Thanks.




Congrats for your new Theorem 

For Samsung 4S you need to install 3rd party software from :
USB Audio Recorder Pro 
USB Audio Player Pro 
I have these two app , I prefer the latest UAPP has better UI and the best SQ from USB audio player on the market 

IMO 

iPod classic 7G only works with Theorem


----------



## singleended58

rudi0504 said:


> Congrats for your new Theorem
> 
> For Samsung 4S you need to install 3rd party software from :
> USB Audio Recorder Pro
> ...




Rudi, I do not know which site should I trust. I can see one USB audio recorder pro USD $6.51 and USB aup is USD$9.59 is that the latest software you mentiond?


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Rudi, I do not know which site should I trust. I can see one USB audio recorder pro USD $6.51 and USB aup is USD$9.59 is that the latest software you mentiond?




USB Audio Player Pro for USD 9,69 is what I mean , Many head Fi friends like this UAPP very much , in term of very good SQ and better UI 
Please read on the other thread Android player


----------



## Scorpion667

I;m starting to notice some channel imbalance on lower volume levels. What's a good way to test for this to make sure I'm not crazy? Could I test with a DMM?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Very low level does have imbalance. No need to test really


----------



## georgelai57

ultrainferno said:


> Very low level does have imbalance. No need to test really


My amps are never at low volume.


----------



## midnightwalker

ultrainferno said:


> Very low level does have imbalance. No need to test really


 
  
 Why do you need an amp when only listen at very low volume?  j/k


----------



## AnakChan

Time to choose a colour combination :-


----------



## PAM005

Just want to say.... very creative  I'm having FULL copper edition for some days as an upgrade for my BLACK unit (only for the looks ).. but Copper is a real beauty! And it's very difficult to catch it's looks in a picture! You'll have to see in real life...


----------



## rudi0504

anakchan said:


> Time to choose a colour combination :-




Hi Sean
I prefer copper color , looks more elegance


----------



## utdeep

I've been using a recently produced Theorem for a few hours and the hiss is unbearable.  It doesn't matter if it is a LCD-3, Shure SE846, or a NAD Viso HP-50.  I tried another Theorem from a friend with the same results.  We're both returning our products.  I just don't get it.
  
 I noticed a little bit of hiss with a Cypher Labs CLAS -db/Duet combo and it was't much of an issue.  This hiss is ridiculous - even worse than the ALO MK3.   Compared to the non-existent noise floors of other companies, how does any company put out a product that ruins any music with silent parts?
  
 A non-existent noise floor should be a minimum standard that amp manufacturers should be held to.  I understand that this is a personal preference, but all the rest of the sound seems irrelevant when I feel like there is a dang mosquito stuck in my earpad.


----------



## Ultrainferno

There's no hiss with my LCD-2 or any other full sized can for that matter


----------



## utdeep

Are you sure?  The LCD-3 is probably less sensitive than the LCD-2, and I can even hear the noise floor on it.  It drives me nuts on the SE846.   I use the LCD-3 at medium gain but I think I prefer high gain for the increased dynamics but the hiss gets worse.
  
 I must be the unluckiest head-fier around!


----------



## fiascogarcia

utdeep said:


> Are you sure?  The LCD-3 is probably less sensitive than the LCD-2, and I can even hear the noise floor on it.  It drives me nuts on the SE846.   I use the LCD-3 at medium gain but I think I prefer high gain for the increased dynamics but the hiss gets worse.
> 
> I must be the unluckiest head-fier around!


 
  
 I've been so, so interested in streamlining with one of these new dac/amp combos coming out.  But it seems right now I think I'm very happy with my CLAS/RSA and CLAS/Pure II setups, because I hear nothing in the way of hiss!  Then again, I have old ears.


----------



## singleended58

Go with balanced connection the hiss will be much less and bearable.


----------



## fiascogarcia

Somehow "bearable" doesn't instill a lot of confidence.


----------



## utdeep

I am all balanced with both the SE846 and the LCD3. 
  
 I wish they had stuck the guts of the Duet into the Theorem - it has more power for the high impedence headphones and more range for the senstive IEMs.  At any rate, I prefer the headphone out of my iPhone over this noisy amp.


----------



## Ultrainferno

have you checked back with CL?


----------



## singleended58

My Theorem does not have "loud" hiss or I might get used to it since I got Rxmk3B.


----------



## utdeep

I don't think I need to because my impressions match up with everything others have said.  We also tried two different Theorems.  I might just be very sensitive to it.
  
 Unfortunately, it's a definite deal breaker.
  
 If you like hiss, the RXmk3b is perfect for you.  I still liked the RX though... with the HD800.


----------



## Scorpion667

rudi0504 said:


> Hi Sean
> I prefer copper color , looks more elegance


 
 Both combinations have some copper colour. Are you referring to the top or bottom one?


----------



## rudi0504

scorpion667 said:


> Both combinations have some copper colour. Are you referring to the top or bottom one?




I like all In Copper Color , not The combination Color 
Or now has Gold Color look beautiful too


----------



## IceClass

Too bad it isn't available in silver.


----------



## singleended58

rudi0504 said:


> I like all In Copper Color , not The combination Color
> Or now has Gold Color look beautiful too




Are all Theorem in colors plated with copper and gold? I thought Cypher Labs using real copper or gold but the prices seeem to be the same with black aluminum (?)


----------



## catcherfly

Has anyone tried the T-Peos H-200 or H-300 with the 720. They are not crazy sensitive IEM so I'm really hoping the noise floor will be minimal. I'll be listening with an iPhone 5s, mostly electronic music


----------



## rudi0504

singleended58 said:


> Are all Theorem in colors plated with copper and gold? I thought Cypher Labs using real copper or gold but the prices seeem to be the same with black aluminum (?)




Theorem has In Two Color First was In Black , now has In Copper Color and Gold is For limitation time .
They make not from real Copper or Gold , thats would Be very expensive .


----------



## rudi0504

catcherfly said:


> Has anyone tried the T-Peos H-200 or H-300 with the 720. They are not crazy sensitive IEM so I'm really hoping the noise floor will be minimal. I'll be listening with an iPhone 5s, mostly electronic music




I havent heard and paired With T Peos Iem , since i have sold My T Peos H-100 

Theorem has hiss on BA driver iems , except on Two BA driver that i have :
etymotic ER 4 PT 
Earsonic SM 64 v1 and v2


----------



## rudi0504

My Saturday on the Go ( inside a car on the back Row sit ) simple rig :

Source : iPhone 4 s
Dac / Amp : Cypher. Labs Theorem 720 In Copper Edition In MEDIUM gain
Headphone : LCD XC With SAA Endorphin balance 4 PIN > 4 PIN Female To RSA / Kobicon balance 
Iem : Earsonic SM 64 v2
Cable : Moon Audio Silver Dragon v1 Lod 30 PIN to mini USB 
Music file : WAV , AIFF and FLAC 


My impression :

High : very Clear , clean and extended High With very Good presence og High 
 Very Good clarity , i can hear The cymbals very detail and so Good on my. Theorem 
Mid : very sweet , Clear and clean mid , The midrange from My favorite. Chinese sanger Tong Li so intimate and lush 
Bass : very Good bass impact and very clean bass reproduction 
Separation: very Good separation that i can detect The instrument placement very Clear 
Sonudstage : Wide and very Good Depth In My LCD XC 
Hiss : No Hiss on My LCD XC and My Earsonic SM 64 v1 112 Ohm and v2 90 Ohm
Background : black background 

Overall :
I hear With Medium Gain and turn My volume at 9 o clock , i can hear all the detail and clarity With This set Up so Good 
This set Up is very Good For traveling Only 2 Stags and use IPhone 4 S or IPhone 5 S as my source 
If you like clarity and detail and sweet Clear midrange With very Good bass impact than This set Up is very Good For you 

IMO


----------



## PAM005

I thougt the *real Copper* version was exclusive for the Facebook PROMO - now there are only 2 versions - BLACK & COPPER. The copper version is very glossy and looks like gold. A real eyecather. Sorry EARcatcher 
  
 If you want to have an Eyecathing portable stack - go for the Copper Edition. And YES, it's a great match with ALL Audeze headphones!


----------



## Hawkertempest

I have a Theorem 720 connected to a 7th gen iPod 160gb Classic and I am currently running B&W P3 and P5's through it. I find the combination quite stunning. I play these on the low impedance setting and I have no "hiss" issues, just crystal clear sound. All my music is from high resolution sources, recorded on high quality equipment. I am a firm believer in garbage in garbage out. And oh boy if anything in your music chain has been compromised the 720 will definitely let you know it. Don't blame the 720, take a serious look at your gear and how you record it and it's original source. I have a  set of Beyerdynamic T1's for which I am ordering a 1/4 to 1/8 adapter from Moon Audio so I can connect them to the 720 also.
 This definitely is a world class Portable DAC/AMP.


----------



## singleended58

My Theorem is connected to iphone 4s using Heir 4ai with Toxic cable silver widow. Hiss does not bother me at all.


----------



## PAM005

I do use Theorem 720 DAC with InEars SD2 with balanced ALO SXC-24 cable. Working great for me....


----------



## Ultrainferno

That's a great combo, I tried that combo from a friend


----------



## cruzmiguel

mine is usually paired with an ipod.


----------



## midnightwalker

The cable looks great bro. What is it?


----------



## hotfever

Does it produce hiss with 40-50ohm ciem such as hidition nt6 pro(46ohm as i remember)


----------



## midnightwalker

hotfever said:


> Does it produce hiss with 40-50ohm ciem such as hidition nt6 pro(46ohm as i remember)


 
  
 Sure it does but you gonna sell your nt6pro soon so no worry dude


----------



## cruzmiguel

midnightwalker said:


> The cable looks great bro. What is it?


 

 sorry for the late reply mate, which cable were you referring to?
 if its from the photo youre were asking, then its just regular techflex sleeving.


----------



## hotfever

midnightwalker said:


> Sure it does but you gonna sell your nt6pro soon so no worry dude




U know what Midnitewanker....."beep" you
just kidding,he is my friend )


----------



## midnightwalker

cruzmiguel said:


> sorry for the late reply mate, which cable were you referring to?
> if its from the photo youre were asking, then its just regular techflex sleeving.


 
  
 Yes, that is the one. I am looking for the purple sleeving 
  


hotfever said:


> U know what Midnitewanker....."beep" you
> just kidding,he is my friend
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Lol you rather *beep* me first and then your nt6pro 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 boom boom boom on bass =))


----------



## cruzmiguel

> Originally Posted by *midnightwalker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Yes, that is the one. I am looking for the purple sleeving


 
  
 I got mine here:
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-4mm-x-3m-Length-Techflex-Flexo-PET-Expandable-Braided-Cable-Sleeve-/331015585306?pt=AU_Building_Materials&var=&hash=item4d1210fe1a
  
 pretty sure you'd be able to find one nearer your area.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Have you seen the new Cypher Labs Piccolo? (I couldn't find a thread and don't feel like making one)


----------



## cruzmiguel

ultrainferno said:


> Have you seen the new Cypher Labs Piccolo? (I couldn't find a thread and don't feel like making one)


 

 yep saw the Piccolo, looks promising, waiting on first impressions.


----------



## hotfever

midnightwalker said:


> Yes, that is the one. I am looking for the purple sleeving
> 
> 
> Lol you rather *beep* me first and then your nt6pro   boom boom boom on bass =))




U used a very wrong term to describe my "1 to rule all" ciem,its bass should be broom broom broom(due to the boost section is 40hz and below lol)


----------



## hotfever

If i go balanced for my ciem with 720,will i get more hiss as the voltage swing x2???anyone experience theorem with balanced ciem plzzzz


----------



## catcherfly

I am curious about this as well - I plan to convert one my iem cables to balanced.


----------



## singleended58

hotfever said:


> If i go balanced for my ciem with 720,will i get more hiss as the voltage swing x2???anyone experience theorem with balanced ciem plzzzz




Absolutely no hiss with my HE400 skuld4 balanced but with IEM Miracle TCSW SE.


----------



## hotfever

singleended58 said:


> Absolutely no hiss with my HE400 skuld4 balanced but with IEM Miracle TCSW SE.




So ur saying : balanced with absolute no-hiss,se with absolute yes-hiss lol,doesnt matter how many ohm ur iem is,if it is balanced termination we ll be in hiss free zone ????


----------



## singleended58

hotfever said:


> So ur saying : balanced with absolute no-hiss,se with absolute yes-hiss lol,doesnt matter how many ohm ur iem is,if it is balanced termination we ll be in hiss free zone ????




I think more hiss mostly with sensitive IEM such as Miracle.


----------



## singleended58

singleended58 said:


> I think more hiss mostly with sensitive IEM such as Miracle.




...and Heir 4ai with TCWW balanced which is weird and I guess it depends to the 3rd party cable (?)


----------



## hotfever

I think we just miss my concern : balanced vs se on theorem for the hiss issue


----------



## deanorthk

just 3 more weeks to wait, and I'll be able to test both the theorem and the heir audio 5.0, I must admit that patience is a hard virtue to learn


----------



## midnightwalker

deanorthk said:


> just 3 more weeks to wait, and I'll be able to test both the theorem and the heir audio 5.0, I must admit that patience is a hard virtue to learn


 
  
 Congratz on your decision. Theorem is a great choice.


----------



## deanorthk

Any of You have tried another lod câble between iPhone and the theorem to see if it really improve things?


----------



## LFC_SL

You kind of have to otherwise just amping iPhone headphone output. If you are doing that might as well save money and get a fiio.

But your ears as to what you hear and perceive.


----------



## lukeap69

Or get the new Picollo.


----------



## catcherfly

I'm wondering if anyone has opinions on copper digital cables vs silver digital cables with the 720. I am going to buy a couple different lengths of lightning (for iPhone/iPad) to USB Mini from Forza Audio Works and they offer both OCC 7N Cryo Copper and Silver.


----------



## deanorthk

catcherfly, I've asked Forza audio the same questions
 I'll be going with the hybrid copper/silver version with the theorem, both for the usb mini to lod, and try also their XLR cables (230€ for 1m pairs). hope they'll turn to be good


----------



## catcherfly

deanorthk said:


> catcherfly, I've asked Forza audio the same questions
> I'll be going with the hybrid copper/silver version with the theorem, both for the usb mini to lod, and try also their XLR cables (230€ for 1m pairs). hope they'll turn to be good




Deanorthk, 
Have you received your Forza cables yet? I'm wondering how the hybrid LOD cables sound with the 720


----------



## deanorthk

Hey
  
 Sadly not yet, my theorem 720 is not here yet, so I've put a hold on my forza audio order...using my heir audio 5.0 as it is fopr the time beeing.


----------



## lukeap69

To those who use ipod touch as music transport, do you use the included lightning cable? I tried my brother's ipod and Flac player+ and I was disappointed with the SQ. Will Onkyo app provide a bit perfect output?


----------



## Eugguy

Ordered a 720 from moonaudio last week. Looking forward to how it pairs with:
  
 5th generation 64gb iPod touch
  
 Shure 846
  
 Sony MDR 7520
  
 Sennheiser HD8
  
 Sennheiser IE80
  
 Aurisonics ASG2


----------



## Eugguy

I've just received the 720...very nice. I have to say after trying out only my IEMS (ASG2, SE846, IE80) I am VERY happy with the sound I am receiving using the lighting adapter to 720. I have only had about 30 minutes so far, but I can describe the overall sound as being lush and neutral. Exactly what I was looking for. There is minimal hiss. I don't know what all the drama is about regarding the hiss and iems. It is knit-picking on such an incredibly small con. It's like saying you can't stand a gorgeous supermodel because she has a wrinkle on the back of her leg. Oh well, I was nervous reading how the hiss was too much for some, before receiving the 720. Now I am relieved that it is pretty much nonexistent. On low gain, I can barely hear a hiss...with the volume knob turned 10% the hiss is gone. Going from a c421, which was a nice unit, the 720 is a legitimate upgrade in quality/sound.


----------



## jimbojangles

eugguy said:


> I've just received the 720...very nice. I have to say after trying out only my IEMS (ASG2, SE846, IE80) I am VERY happy with the sound I am receiving using the lighting adapter to 720. I have only had about 30 minutes so far, but I can describe the overall sound as being lush and neutral. Exactly what I was looking for. There is minimal hiss. I don't know what all the drama is about regarding the hiss and iems. It is knit-picking on such an incredibly small con. It's like saying you can't stand a gorgeous supermodel because she has a wrinkle on the back of her leg. Oh well, I was nervous reading how the hiss was too much for some, before receiving the 720. Now I am relieved that it is pretty much nonexistent. On low gain, I can barely hear a hiss...with the volume knob turned 10% the hiss is gone. Going from a c421, which was a nice unit, the 720 is a legitimate upgrade in quality/sound.


This is encouraging to hear as I have just purchased some SE846 IEMS and am aware of there low impedance. I'm after a mobile rig and have just got iPhone 4s , iPod Classic 2g, Mac Pro etc....and was very tempted on the Theorem 720 rather than go portable dap route but, like you, worried reading about hiss . Be interesting to see how your 720 and IEMS get on. Oh and sorry in advance as I'm very new to this forum.


----------



## BA_D_R

I just bought Theorem 720, i'm using it with ATH-M50 and Ultrasone Signature DJ
  
 I'm so happy with it, much more details and its amazingly can process the "Congested High Frequencies" parts.
  
 Sometimes I can hear a tiny hiss noise with my Ultrasone Sig DJ, So I can say there are no hiss noise with my Ultrasone Signature DJ.


----------



## Eugguy

David from Cypher Labs is probably the most honest man in Audio. Most audio types are snobs. David has been nothing but a man of humility and integrity who stands behind his products. I am a very happy customer and cannot tell you how much it means when the small people are treated with respect the right way. I won't go into detail, as my experience was more sensitive in nature. I don't know if I can ever deal with Moon-Audio, arrogance. I've been rudely turned down a few times for a simple request. There is a lack of respect for the customer. I've spent nearly $2000 dollars on equipment from him in the past few months. I now refuse to offer money to someone like this, even if a product is slightly above par. It isn't a good feeling, especially when you make purchases this big. A feeling of betrayal and arrogance once you pay. I'll give my premium dollar to not only a premium product, but premium service and respect. 
  
 But good news, the Theorem is truly an amazing machine. I'm glad I picked it up and can trust David to maintain a product and service that has integrity, grit and character built inside. There is alot of detail with musicality inside the Theorem. I hooked it up to my Macbook for the first time last week, amazing. A very buttery sound that extended smooth texture overall. No hiss out of the Macbook. Minimal hiss (5%)overall when using some of my more sensitive IEMs...roxanne, 846, asg2, ie80...no hiss when using full-sized headphones. 720 brings out the best in your headphones.


----------



## Eugguy

ba_d_r said:


> I just bought Theorem 720, i'm using it with ATH-M50 and Ultrasone Signature DJ
> 
> I'm so happy with it, much more details and its amazingly can process the "Congested High Frequencies" parts.
> 
> Sometimes I can hear a tiny hiss noise with my Ultrasone Sig DJ, So I can say there are no hiss noise with my Ultrasone Signature DJ.


 
 I have to try the Ultrasone Sig DJ one day. I've never been a fan of any ultrasone headphone I've tried.


----------



## BA_D_R

eugguy said:


> I have to try the Ultrasone Sig DJ one day. I've never been a fan of any ultrasone headphone I've tried.


 
 Yes indeed you must do.
 Ultrasone Sig DJ is just an amazing (closed-headphone) peace of art,, IMO....
 Its just amazing that I feel it have more than one driver 
 It's sound separation is just unbelievable.
 It provides alot of small details that other headphone don't.
 you will hear new things at your music, actually it made me catch some mixing errors for alot of famous Djs (specially before 2008).
 And oh yes man, it made me realize how clean and crystal clear Michael Jackson's songs, and yes you will hear things at Michael Jackson tracks that you never knew it were existed before.
  
 Once you put your hands on Sig DJ
 Then just hear the sound separation at 1:25   just unbelievable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCYcHz2k5x0


----------



## BA_D_R

Now I just saw the Theorem 720 price dropped to 699$


----------



## kh600rr

Hey guys, first off Id like to give a huge shout out to David from Cypherlabs! He recently replaced my CL Duet Amp, with a 720, after a issue I had with it. CL has been very responsive, in answering my emails, and the huge upgrade to a 720, was a big surprise. 
So I only had the 720 few days so far, and I love it. I mostly had my Duet paired with my AK-240,when driving my HD-800. So if any of you guys have a suggestions or cables that work well with the 720, bring it on!! Thanks


----------



## Eugguy

David/Cypher Labs is probably the company that stays the most true/honest to their customers. Besides a great product, you get great service, which is almost next to impossible to find in today's society. Not a hint of arrogance or ignorance as experienced with most snobby audiophile types. I haven't been using the 720 as often as I would like. I've been just rocking the iPhone at the moment due to my schedule, daily routine. However, when I do get to plug into the 720, I am treated to sweet, rich, clarity otherwise not found in my other daps/dacs/amps.


----------



## Luthus

I'm thinking of buying the theorem to solve my portable issue with battery life constraints (disappointing moment when your source/dac/amp runs out of juice and you can't charge and play at the same time). According to Rudi's post, the er4pt does not emit much or possible any noticeable hiss, however, I use the p-to-s adapter. Can someone verify the hiss? I will verify this myself by trying out a store demo, but I'll have to make time to go to that store.

My setup intention: iPhone4s 64GB > CL Theorem 720 > Etymotic ER4PT (/w s adapter).

On another note, how does the Theorem stand against the setups below when aiming for sound quality from iems?
1. CLAS original + ALO Rx MK2(tactical edition) 
2. CLAS (Tactical) + ALO Rx MK2 (Tactical)
3. Fostex HP-P1
4. CEntrance HiFi M8
5. CypherLabs Bundle (Duet + Solo -dB + Balanced Interconnect)

I know this is a big ask with lots of variables involved, but I'd like to know your opinions in comparison. Still researching but thought I'd ask the community while I'm at it.

Cheers.



rudi0504 said:


> I havent heard and paired With T Peos Iem , since i have sold My T Peos H-100
> 
> Theorem has hiss on BA driver iems , except on Two BA driver that i have :
> etymotic ER 4 PT
> Earsonic SM 64 v1 and v2


----------



## Hawkertempest

Hi,
 I run iPod 160 Classic through my 720 using high quality cds" ripped via apple lossless playing through B&W P3 and P5's. I get absolutely no hiss.
 I also use the same rig connected to my Cary SLP-05 connected via Silver Dragon and WBT RCA's playing through Beyerdynamic T1 600 ohm head phones, no hiss, absolutely black background........shear bliss! 
  
 I highly recommend the Theorem 720 and it's battery life is amazing. Its ability to recharge my iPod as well is a huge bonus.


----------



## catcherfly

I just received some new cables from Forza Audioworks for my Theorem 720 - a copper USB cable (computer), a copper/silver hybrid LOD cable, a copper IEM cable (for T-Peos H-300), and a balanced XLR to RSA headphone cable adapter. HE-400s balanced out of the 720 may sound better than coming balanced out of Audio-GD NFB-28. Still too early for me to make comparisons but, for sure, the Theorem 720 is an incredible unit.


----------



## lukeap69

Wow, better than NFB-28, that's a good plus the Theorem. It used to be my 'desktop' DAC but since receiving NFB-1, my Theorem became my portable DAC/amp again because I think the Audio-gd is the 'better' DAC. The instruments sound more natural on my NFB-1 IMO. Having said that, the Theorem is a very capable unit even if used as a desktop DAC.


----------



## catcherfly

lukeap69 said:


> Wow, better than NFB-28, that's a good plus the Theorem. It used to be my 'desktop' DAC but since receiving NFB-1, my Theorem became my portable DAC/amp again because I think the Audio-gd is the 'better' DAC. The instruments sound more natural on my NFB-1 IMO. Having said that, the Theorem is a very capable unit even if used as a desktop DAC.


 

 Despite the same the ES9018 chip, I imagine  the NFB-1 is a much higher quality DAC than the NFB-28.
  
 Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I will spend some time doing more comparisons between the NFB-28 and the Theorem 720. Particularly as headphone amp/DAC combos, and then as separate DACs running out to speakers. The later will be difficult to do a straight one-to-one comparison because the NFB-28 has balanced XLR connection options and 720 only has a 3.5 mm line out.


----------



## lukeap69

If there is a difference in NFB-1 and NFB-28 DAC's SQ, I presume it would be small. Please don't get me wrong with my post, I thought the my Audio-gd is the better performer (perhaps for my cans) and if you hear the Theorem to perform better then that is good. It is so nice that you can bring the Theorem easily to anywhere you want and give you great SQ. Enjoy!


----------



## AnakChan

Hi Theorem 720 owners. Do you have RFI with your iDevice (in my case, iPhone 6) with the Theorem 720?


----------



## refault

anakchan said:


> Hi Theorem 720 owners. Do you have RFI with your iDevice (in my case, iPhone 6) with the Theorem 720?


 
  
 What kind of interference do you suspect it to be?
  
 I have had cellular network interference with the Theorem 720 on my iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4S on AT&T (AT&T uses lower >1000mhz spectrum frequency, if I recall correctly), but once I switched over to T-Mobile on my iPhone 4S (1800-2000mhz frequency spectrum) I only rarely encounter RFI w/ the Theorem 720 now days.


----------



## PAM005

anakchan said:


> Hi Theorem 720 owners. Do you have RFI with your iDevice (in my case, iPhone 6) with the Theorem 720?


 

 Hi AnakChan,
  
 No problems with my Theorem 720, i did have some issues with my older CLAS - but wrapping the device in some RFI/Emi paper will help. Stillpoints does have some products in it's assortment.
 See: http://www.tweekgeek.com/stillpoints-ers-rfi-killer/
  
 Hope this will help you some...


----------



## AnakChan

Cheers for the response chaps.
  
@refault, I noticed it more with my iPhone 6 and didn't recall it so much with my iPad. Good point about different providers, maybe different frequencies. On my iPad I'm with Softbank and on regular LTE, whilst the iPhone 6 is with Docomo and on LTE-A.
  
 I don't recall this on my CLAS -dB/Duet setup but I haven't tested that too extensively.


----------



## shotgunshane

I had RFi with the -db/duet set up. I even had to turn wifi off the touch I used it with. Besides size, that really the only issue I had with that set up. It was otherwise excellent sounding.


----------



## Bopper29

With humble iPod classic (160gb) only very occasionally. And this is amongst crowded trains and buses. Mind you, I keep my own phone in a separate pocket. My guess with iPhone 6 is that you will experience RFI but above comments seem to indicate it's variable.


----------



## HowlingLung

Looking for some input from Theorem owners.
  
 I'm currently look for a portable Amp/DAC that pairs well with my iPod touch, and many of the features of the Theorem appeal to me, such as the battery life and being able to charge my iPod while listening. The two headphones I currently own are the HD 598s which I use at home and the PSB M4U 1s which I use when traveling. Do you guys think the Theorem would be a good fit for these headphones?


----------



## midnightwalker

You won't have any issue to pair your phone and headphones with the Theorem. It has a great DAC and powerful amp.


----------



## Scorpion667

catcherfly said:


> I just received some new cables from Forza Audioworks for my Theorem 720 - a copper USB cable (computer), a copper/silver hybrid LOD cable, a copper IEM cable (for T-Peos H-300), and a balanced XLR to RSA headphone cable adapter. HE-400s balanced out of the 720 may sound better than coming balanced out of Audio-GD NFB-28. Still too early for me to make comparisons but, for sure, the Theorem 720 is an incredible unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 Sweet setup!
  
 I hear you man, I had a memorable experience with the HE500's and T720 once. I walk into my local headphone shop (I'm there often so the owner knows me). He is listening/testing out his new balanced RSA to Hifiman cable (ALO greenline I think). I didn't wanna interrupt so I was just looking around but soon as he caught sight of me, doesn't say hi or anything, almost throws the HE500's at me and goes "you HAVE to try this" - I was taken aback. That was one of the most memorable experiences I've ever had with a pair of headphones, and I've tried lots of flagships. I was floored - UNBELIEVABLE sound, still remember it 6 months later. DAMN I wanna get the HE500's now! I like the 560 as well but 500's are branded into my soul after that incident


----------



## Poimandres

Okay. If anyone is interested ttvj hasblack friday/cyber monday deals and one of them is the theorem for 595.


----------



## Poimandres

Okay so I am finally getting some listening time with my new Theorem 720 and my JH 13 pro fp's.  When no music is playing at all I certainly get a hiss, it is quite hard to say the least if I can hear anything while the music is playing though, even when it is pretty quiet.  My question is will it hiss if I change my 13fp's to balanced?  I only ask because according to cypher labs:
  
 Low Gain
 • Single Ended Output = -9 dB
 • Balanced Output = -14.8 dB


----------



## midnightwalker

fijaas said:


> Can anyone tell me how tall is the Theorem 720?


 
  
 Same height with the quarter coin.


----------



## BA_D_R

I bought 2 small oscilloscopes to measure the max voltage *on one side (left side driver)* for a 1khz sine wave 0dB to verify what CypherLabs specifications.
 http://www.cypherlabs.com/products/theorem-720-dac/
  
 As I understood, at every AMPs and headphones specifications, the left side driver power + right side driver power = the published power specifications.
  
  
 This what I got, at 32 ohm load, max voltage peak to peak is:
  
 Low gain    720 mVpp
 Mid gain     3.0  Vpp
 High gain    6.4  Vpp
  
 So the max RMS output power _*(for one driver*_) will be:
  
 Low gain     4 mW  RMS
 Mid gain     70 mW RMS
 High gain    320 mW RMS
  
 I found this different from what CypherLabs published.
  
 Please correct me if i'm wrong.
  
 Thank you,,,


----------



## iDesign

Im considering purchasing the Theorem 720 but I've also taken a close look at the International+. Can someone share any reasons they would opt for the Cypher Labs product over ALO's? The analog input, small size, and lower noise floor of the International+ make it very appealing.


----------



## Ultrainferno

1. Cause the Theorem and Audeze combo is SUPERB


----------



## iDesign

ultrainferno said:


> 1. Cause the Theorem and Audeze combo is SUPERB


 

 All good points, but what about with IEMs like the Etymotic ER4S?


----------



## fiascogarcia

idesign said:


> Im considering purchasing the Theorem 720 but I've also taken a close look at the International+. Can someone share any reasons they would opt for the Cypher Labs product over ALO's? The analog input, small size, and lower noise floor of the International+ make it very appealing.


 

 Plus $300 during their warehouse sale.


----------



## Ultrainferno

idesign said:


> All good points, but what about with IEMs like the Etymotic ER4S?


 
  
 I have very sensitive monitors and the Theorem is a no go, unless I use an external amp


----------



## PAM005

ultrainferno said:


> I have very sensitive monitors and the Theorem is a no go, unless I use an external amp


 

 Rights, you can use Theorem with Picollo amp to drive your sensitive IEM. Cypherlabs sound can be very addictive !


----------



## midnightwalker

idesign said:


> Im considering purchasing the Theorem 720 but I've also taken a close look at the International+. Can someone share any reasons they would opt for the Cypher Labs product over ALO's? The analog input, small size, and lower noise floor of the International+ make it very appealing.


 
  
 Make sure that the International+ can replace built-in DAC on iOS devices. Last time I used the International and its DAC can not replace the built-in one.
  
 The Theorem can charge your phone while playing so you will not worry about your phone will out of battery when listening to music. Last but not least that Cypher Labs has A+ customer service and great quality products as well.


----------



## ButtUglyJeff

IOS devices will require the Camera Connection Trick (CCK) in order to use the International's on board DAC.  And that trick if far from a long term guarantee, as any IOS update could squash that ability without Apple even batting an eye...
  
  
 The upside of the CCK, is the ability to play high res stuff using 3rd party players like the Onkyo player and not have you files downsampled to 16/44 or whatever the max Apple has in place currently...
  
  
 The Theorem is a simple Lightning connection and go...


----------



## Eugguy

midnightwalker said:


> Make sure that the International+ can replace built-in DAC on iOS devices. Last time I used the International and its DAC can not replace the built-in one.
> 
> The Theorem can charge your phone while playing so you will not worry about your phone will out of battery when listening to music. Last but not least that Cypher Labs has A+ customer service and great quality products as well.


 

 I can attest to the customer service of Cypher Labs. Best in the industry. I love my T720. Does the job to perfection!


----------



## tunes

AK240 vs Theorem 720 DAC

Has anyone made a comparison?


----------



## Ultrainferno

How would you see that? DAP vs idevice dac with built in amp.
 I have both but have never used them in the same setup


----------



## singleended58

I have listened to my Theorem 720 paired with iPhone 4S (CAN is Hifiman 400 with Norm cables RSA balanced). The sound almost similar to this combination Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp (new one) + Chord Hugo DAC + Apple MAC air source + Audeze LCD can except the latter has more body.


----------



## iDesign

Has anyone ever compared the CypherLabs 720, ALO International+, and CEntrance HiFi-M8? How would these amplifiers be ranked in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place strictly based on performance and technical specs (not size, weight, and battery life etc.)?


----------



## singleended58

idesign said:


> Has anyone ever compared the CypherLabs 720, ALO International+, and CEntrance HiFi-M8? How would these amplifiers be ranked in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place strictly based on performance and technical specs (not size, weight, and battery life etc.)?



1) CL Theorem 720
2) ALO Internstional +
3) Centrance M8


----------



## wairx

singleended58 said:


> 1) CL Theorem 720
> 2) ALO Internstional +
> 3) Centrance M8


 
 Is close the ALO International to Theorem 720 with headphones which need high power?


----------



## czy6412

How was the sound using Theorem 720 pairing with TH900


----------



## kh600rr

czy6412 said:


> How was the sound using Theorem 720 pairing with TH900




Tried it at a show once, paired very well.love my 720


----------



## midnightwalker

tunes said:


> AK240 vs Theorem 720 DAC
> 
> Has anyone made a comparison?


 
  
 Apple and Orange...but for sound quality and portability, I would vote for the AK240 but for power and p/p, I would be on 720 side.


----------



## midnightwalker

czy6412 said:


> How was the sound using Theorem 720 pairing with TH900


 
  
 Amazing !!!


----------



## tunes

I would like to try the theorem with my WA 7 tube amp and bypass the WA 7's DAC. I need a good analogue cable from the Theorem Line out to the WA7 RCA input L and R jacks. Any suggestions????


----------



## tunes

I am trying to choose a line out cable 3.5mm (1/8”) analog to RCA male for using another tube amp with
the Theorem. So far the Audioquest Forrest and Blue Jeans seem good and close in price. Anyone feel that one is better than the other??


----------



## georgelai57

After owning the Theorem for a while now I'm ready to explore balanced. It is surprising how little info I can get via Google so what better than here? Can someone show me a pic of how the cable from my headphones end at the Theorem? Is it better to get a complete new cable for my custom IEMs or are there adapters I can use. Photos would be most useful. Thanks in advance.


----------



## lukeap69

This is what I'm using to adapt my 4-pin XLR balanced cable to use on the Theorem 720.


----------



## fiascogarcia

georgelai57 said:


> After owning the Theorem for a while now I'm ready to explore balanced. It is surprising how little info I can get via Google so what better than here? Can someone show me a pic of how the cable from my headphones end at the Theorem? Is it better to get a complete new cable for my custom IEMs or are there adapters I can use. Photos would be most useful. Thanks in advance.


 

 You can use an adapter as long as your current cable is balanced.  If it is a single ended non-balanced TRS jack, you would need to re-terminate your cable or replace it with a cable with the correct balanced jack for your Theorem.


----------



## georgelai57

Thanks


----------



## yeti99

Has anyone used both the hifi-m8 and the theorem 720 dac? Was wondering how they compare to each other and which DAC/AMP to get currently am using the HE-400i and also Fostex TH600.


----------



## singleended58

I have listened to M8 at CanJam2015 in Southern CA and do not really like it compared to Theorem 720 I owe which is also well matched with my Hifiman HE-400 (I guess HE-400i is even better).


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have had both but kept the Theorem. Both are good but I prefered the sound (and size) of the Theorem over the M8, especially with planars and the HD650.
 But tastes are personal of course.
  
 Have you looked at the Hugo or Alo CDM?


----------



## Ivabign

I had the M8 and now have the 720 - damn this thing has some punch to it. Superior to the M8 IMO - but my M8 had the IEM mod, so power isn't equal to the T720. Maybe a regular M8 would have equal punch - but signature is superior on the 720. It sounds better all around. I was worried about the hiss everyone talks about, but it really is less than negligible - you can tell when the amp turns on, but it hardly qualifies as hiss. I have used SE846, UM Pro50, 1964 Ears V8 and V6-Stage - all except the Pro50 are super sensitive, but I can pause the music and the background is pretty black...
  
 Whew - I was a bit worried about it. Mine was bought used so there are some hours on the unit - I imagine it just needed to be burned in a bit. 
  
 The sound is rich and dynamic - detailed and neutral with a hint of warmth... Lots of air.. I haven't found a piece of music it cannot keep up with - and it has such great control over the BA headphones - they are able to turn on a dime. I am simply using it as a DAC/Amp with my iMac....
  
 Brilliant - just brilliant.


----------



## midnightwalker

ivabign said:


> I had the M8 and now have the 720 - damn this thing has some punch to it. Superior to the M8 IMO - but my M8 had the IEM mod, so power isn't equal to the T720. Maybe a regular M8 would have equal punch - but signature is superior on the 720. It sounds better all around. I was worried about the hiss everyone talks about, but it really is less than negligible - you can tell when the amp turns on, but it hardly qualifies as hiss. I have used SE846, UM Pro50, 1964 Ears V8 and V6-Stage - all except the Pro50 are super sensitive, but I can pause the music and the background is pretty black...
> 
> Whew - I was a bit worried about it. Mine was bought used so there are some hours on the unit - I imagine it just needed to be burned in a bit.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Add to the wonderful sound sign, CL customer service is top notch. I once sent my 720 to service, David sent me back a new one. Emails were replied within an hour. They are awesome :x


----------



## Eugguy

I have to say. I agree. Cypher Labs customer service is the best in the industry. I hope someone important from the company reads and knows this. Great product, great (if not better) service. Impossible to find in this era. I hope David knows I still am VERY grateful for sending me an extra connector when the original one had a bad connection as well as being an honest person and giving me a price match. I very much dislike the arrogant - audiophilic types who belittle people who may not know as much about this hobby. CL is the farthest thing away from this. I'll tell you what though, I'll never buy any equipment from the person who makes "silver dragon" cables...I didn't find him very professional at all. 

And it's also great to hear you are enjoying your 720. I love it to death. I use IEMS quite a bit, so I did experience the hiss somewhat, but only during extra quiet passages. It just sounds sweet, brings out an extra dimension and layering quality to your music. I also love the rotary dial. Very fun to have some tacticality in a world of digital/touch screen equipment.


----------



## Trogdor

ivabign said:


> I had the M8 and now have the 720 - damn this thing has some punch to it. Superior to the M8 IMO - but my M8 had the IEM mod, so power isn't equal to the T720. Maybe a regular M8 would have equal punch - but signature is superior on the 720. It sounds better all around. I was worried about the hiss everyone talks about, but it really is less than negligible - you can tell when the amp turns on, but it hardly qualifies as hiss. I have used SE846, UM Pro50, 1964 Ears V8 and V6-Stage - all except the Pro50 are super sensitive, but I can pause the music and the background is pretty black...
> 
> Whew - I was a bit worried about it. Mine was bought used so there are some hours on the unit - I imagine it just needed to be burned in a bit.
> 
> ...





I got to tell you, the M8 is one of the most disappointing products I had to review. It was just lifeless compared to the 720. YMMV.


----------



## Eugguy

The one thing that did intrigue me about the m8 was the eq adjustments.


----------



## lukeap69

I've just ordered my balanced cable for my Oppo PM-3 and Theorem 720 from Surf cables. I hope to hear an improvement in SQ.


----------



## Ivabign

eugguy said:


> The one thing that did intrigue me about the m8 was the eq adjustments.


 

 Not sure if it is a positive or negative, but the EQ controls on the M8 are subtle, very subtle bumps in bass/treble. The one thing I did enjoy was the adjustable OI switch - when I would listen with my Velvet or UM Pro50 a higher impedance did make (again) a very subtle difference. Most people I spoke to about the amp though, left it on >1ohm and forgot about it.


----------



## maricius

guys http://www.head-fi.org/t/778239/cypher-labs-sustain84-desktop-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier


----------



## rebelme801

Currently have this setup:
  
 Ipod touch 5th gen --> 720 DAC --> Ibasso PB2 --> balanced cable --> HD650.  The sound quality is nothing short of amazing.  Anyone who complains about the hd650 "veil" should try this.


----------



## zniper2984

I just found out now that i won cypherlabs contest last year for the custom theorem 720.it seems davids email went to my spam folder that i overlook it.


----------



## singleended58

rebelme801 said:


> Currently have this setup:
> 
> Ipod touch 5th gen --> 720 DAC --> Ibasso PB2 --> balanced cable --> HD650.  The sound quality is nothing short of amazing.  Anyone who complains about the hd650 "veil" should try this.




Got this set up except my source is 5.5G mod by Vinni Rossi and no HD-650. However, CL720 and ALO RxMK3B have excellent SQ if go with balanced HP.


----------



## nephilim32

zniper2984 said:


> I just found out now that i won cypherlabs contest last year for the custom theorem 720.it seems davids email went to my spam folder that i overlook it.




Omg I am crying for you. This is the saddest thing I've ever heard on head fi.  
Sorry that happened. The Cypher is just amazing and I am currently saving up for it to upgrade my FIIO E17.


----------



## lukeap69

I tried to sell my Theorem 720 (twice) because I found it to be unwieldy. So I was happy using Hidizs AP100 DAP. Then I tried my PM-2 balanced with the Theorem. Wow! Then the PM-3. Wow again. To make the long story short, it is now again my daily commute companion. Who cares if the smartphone-Theorem 720 combo is unwieldy. That SQ on the go is special!


----------



## johandesp

what's the best way to connect sennheiser hd 650 with theorem?which balanced(se input or balanced ?which cable?


----------



## singleended58

I prefer balanced cables. It is up to your taste. Few cables need breaking time longer like the Toxic Cables Silver Widow.


----------



## Bopper29

lukeap69 said:


> I tried to sell my Theorem 720 (twice) because I found it to be unwieldy. So I was happy using Hidizs AP100 DAP. Then I tried my PM-2 balanced with the Theorem. Wow! Then the PM-3. Wow again. To make the long story short, it is now again my daily commute companion. Who cares if the smartphone-Theorem 720 combo is unwieldy. That SQ on the go is special!


 

 Which balanced cable did you get for PM-3? Thanks


----------



## lukeap69

bopper29 said:


> Which balanced cable did you get for PM-3? Thanks




John of Surf Cables made one for me.


----------



## Bopper29

Thanks, just checking out their website now.


----------



## tunes

Has anyone made a side-by-side comparison of the Chord Mojo DAC/Amp versus the Cypher labs Theorem 720. They both seem awesome.


----------



## lukeap69

I have touched that briefly on  http://www.head-fi.org/t/784618/chord-mojo-impressions-thread/15#post_12140726


----------



## singleended58

It seems like the sound signature of Chord Mojo is the winner here by itself but T720 you can do bi-amping as I pair it with ALOmk3B.


----------



## tunes

Not sure what you are referring to. Can you explain in more detail??!


----------



## singleended58

tunes said:


> Not sure what you are referring to. Can you explain in more detail??!




1) AK100mk2 > 2.2mm Sysconcept > Mojo >> IE800 : Best SQ
2) iPhone 6+ >> T720 (stock cable) > 3.5 custom cable >> ALOmk3B >> IE800: second best
3) iPhone 6+ > CCK+ stock >> Mojo >> IE800: third best (noise from CCK sometimes)
I have tried to use Mojo as DAC and Liquid Carbon as amp but the combo did sound good at all to me.


----------



## cyberslacker

I purchased a preowned Theorem from a HeadFier on this forum and was blown away with the sound from something portable and that size.
  
 I was afraid of the HISS as described with IEMs but with the Westone W40 @ 29 ohms it is very slight and goes away when the music starts.
  
 It has all the detail but still FUN sounding even on poor recordings; also very easy on the ears,when you use a HI res recording you want for nothing, it is all there.
  
 It seems to use less processing power after you install the .exe vs other DACs that use just a driver.  I installed it on a old netbook that had a pop/click that would cycle every second or so with other USB dacs, that made it unlistenable , But with the Theorem and the install it is totally silent.
  
 Any question asked was promptly answered by Cyper Labs.


----------



## omega1

I choose theorem over the mojo


Reason :
- bass is better
- separation is a lot better

Mojo is better when you prefer to listen vocal more but I don't like the less separation and not having enough bass (listening cello sound). Also, it's too sharp for my ears


----------



## singleended58

omega1 said:


> I choose theorem over the mojo
> 
> 
> Reason :
> ...




Mojo does have black background whereas T720 has certain level of hiss. To me Mojo sounds cleaner than T720. Every note of each instrument can be heard. 
I addition when listening with hd600 on T720 I could not adjust the volume (it sounds like "plug and play" no need of volume). Whereas the adjusting volume with different colors on Mojo amazingly sounds superb.


----------



## omega1

singleended58 said:


> Mojo does have black background whereas T720 has certain level of hiss. To me Mojo sounds cleaner than T720. Every note of each instrument can be heard.
> I addition when listening with hd600 on T720 I could not adjust the volume (it sounds like "plug and play" no need of volume). Whereas the adjusting volume with different colors on Mojo amazingly sounds superb.


 
*Mojo does have black background whereas T720 has certain level of hiss *-> agree
  
*Every note of each instrument can be heard *-> not agree. I can hear every note of each instrument clearly with Theorem. Also the sounds separation Theorem is way lot better than Mojo


----------



## AnakChan

I think both of you may need to qualify what kind of music you're listening to, the quality of the rip, and with which headphones. Comparisons of either of them has little meaning without further information.


----------



## omega1

anakchan said:


> I think both of you may need to qualify what kind of music you're listening to, the quality of the rip, and with which headphones. Comparisons of either of them has little meaning without further information.


 

 I listen to instruments, slow music
 The quality of rip min 320kbps and flac
 I use JH Layla CIEM, Cypher Labs c6iem


----------



## singleended58

omega1 said:


> *Mojo does have black background whereas T720 has certain level of hiss* -> agree
> 
> What source are you using? I only ca listen to iPhone 6+ and 4s... Kind of limitation since T720 only built for idevices I guess.
> 
> *Every note of each instrument can be heard* -> not agree. I can hear every note of each instrument clearly with Theorem. Also the sounds separation Theorem is way lot better than Mojo


----------



## omega1

singleended58 said:


>


 

 I'm using Note 4 with USB Audio Player


----------



## lukeap69

I've read that both Theorem 720 and Mojo Jojo but the Theorem hisses more. I can't verify this because I do not use IEMs and with my headphones, I do not hear any hiss.
  
 IME, the detail presentation of Mojo is different (effortless) from the T720 so one may think that he can hear the notes more using the Mojo Jojo. I hear the notes on the T720 as well and the notes are more 'weighty' or with more impact. I use both in a regular basis. Headphones are PM-3, PM-2 & HD800.


----------



## omega1

lukeap69 said:


> I've read that both Theorem 720 and Mojo Jojo but the Theorem hisses more. I can't verify this because I do not use IEMs and with my headphones, I do not hear any hiss.
> 
> IME, the detail presentation of Mojo is different (effortless) from the T720 so one may think that he can hear the notes more using the Mojo Jojo. I hear the notes on the T720 as well and the notes are more 'weighty' or with more impact. I use both in a regular basis. Headphones are PM-3, PM-2 & HD800.


 
 Try stacking Picollo with Theorem. The hisses totally gone and the sounds has significant improvement


----------



## Eugguy

omega1 said:


> Try stacking Picollo with Theorem. The hisses totally gone and the sounds has significant improvement


 

 To be honest, the hiss from the 720 alone isn't much. I still appreciate you 720.


----------



## omega1

eugguy said:


> To be honest, the hiss from the 720 alone isn't much. I still appreciate you 720.




Every person has a different tolerance hiss level. For me, Theorem hisses is ok although I admit sometimes it annoying


----------



## Eugguy

omega1 said:


> Every person has a different tolerance hiss level. For me, Theorem hisses is ok although I admit sometimes it annoying


 I do hear hissing definitely. But It is there when I have no music playing. When there is music playing, even at low volumes the hiss is non-existent.


----------



## lukeap69

I don't have any problem with the 720 hissing TBH especially with the cans I use.


----------



## Eugguy

lukeap69 said:


> I don't have any problem with the 720 hissing TBH especially with the cans I use.


Yes. When using cans, there is virtually no hiss. With high gain and complete silence in the background you may notice. I use the 720 with both iems and cans.


----------



## Law87

lukeap69 said:


> I don't have any problem with the 720 hissing TBH especially with the cans I use.


 
  
 very prominent when using IEM, that's the bad thing about Cypher lab and Alo product...


----------



## lukeap69

law87 said:


> very prominent when using IEM, that's the bad thing about Cypher lab and Alo product...


 
 Good thing I am not using any IEM.


----------



## singleended58

lukeap69 said:


> Good thing I am not using any IEM.




That is not true. I am using IE800 and do not hear any hisses?!


----------



## lukeap69

singleended58 said:


> That is not true. I am using IE800 and do not hear any hisses?!




Very good then.


----------



## PCWar

You should try the stack from Cypher Labs, Solo db and Duet amp. The Duet as well as being one of the most underrated amps here that I find it excellent among the best it has the deadest background I've ever listened to. So little praise these days for one of the best companies of the portable scene.


----------



## LFC_SL

I do not think the duet is underrated, merely that site discussion reflects the resurgence of daps


----------



## PCWar

Probably that's the case. Maybe I'm inclined to think that users have my listening habits between home and office where a transportable rig may be better than a one piece DAP sq wise.


----------



## Law87

singleended58 said:


> That is not true. I am using IE800 and do not hear any hisses?!


 
  
 interesting, was yours tune down in power? I know some users done that to get rid of the noise.


----------



## AnakChan

law87 said:


> interesting, was yours tune down in power? I know some users done that to get rid of the noise.


Or, not all ears are alike.

I know my wife hears hiss more easily than I do.


----------



## Eugguy

anakchan said:


> Or, not all ears are alike.
> 
> I know my wife hears hiss more easily than I do.


 

 Most wives hear more hiss, is not this true?


----------



## raelamb

eugguy said:


> Most wives hear more hiss, is not this true?


 

 In my own experience, most wives create hiss.


----------



## Eugguy

Mine comes hiss free. I am lucky. But I hear that sometimes you can hear hissing...even at lower volumes.


----------



## singleended58

raelamb said:


> In my own experience, most wives create hiss.




Most wifes cause our hearing block hisses I guess


----------



## SmokenMirrors

Bought the Theorem four months ago over the Hugo after spending a few hours with each. Both were excellent but liked the Theorem detail slightly better with my jazz/classical lossless grade music collection. Great pairing with my B&O H6s, slightly less so with my various middle of the road IEMs. 

I travel a lot by plane and the 18 hour charge and ability to charge my phone in a pinch are the cherry on the Sunday.


----------



## BA_D_R

I own both 720 and Mojo, I didn't do A to B, but the winner is Mojo it doesn't have any hiss/ground noise and better in every way.


----------



## SmokenMirrors

Huh.  That makes me jealous, wish I could have afforded to keep both!!!
  
 If the Mojo had the ability to charge I-Devices and a balanced output like the Theorem I might have gone the other way.  As it was, the extra features and the slightly better sound to my ears made the Theorem worth the extra $$$s over the Mojo...


----------



## Eugguy

smokenmirrors said:


> Huh.  That makes me jealous, wish I could have afforded to keep both!!!
> 
> If the Mojo had the ability to charge I-Devices and a balanced output like the Theorem I might have gone the other way.  As it was, the extra features and the slightly better sound to my ears made the Theorem worth the extra $$$s over the Mojo...


 

 I agree.


----------



## singleended58

I have both since I bought Theorem long before Mojo released and am listening every day with both. 
The advantage of Theorem is charging idevices while connecting to them and I like the SQ of iPhone 6+ with Theorem more than iPhone 6+ with Mojo via CCK. However, iDevices with Theorem can not beat the SQ of AK100 mk2+ Mojo IMO (mostly listening with IE800 and HD600).


----------



## lukeap69

They have different sound signature for me so I am keeping both. I still think the Theorem is more natural sounding and the notes are weighty. I have adjusted with the signature of Mojo after months of using it but I still feel the notes are fat but light. Too smooth? IDK. I use the Mojo everyday due to size but Theorem is also getting its fair share too.


----------



## omega1

Theorem vs Mojo (based on my ears) 

Theorem
- solid bass
- better separation

Mojo
- Vocal and treble is improved but it has sibilance which my ears couldn't tolerate 
- Bass is weak

Especially if you like strings instruments, I think Thorem sounds better because the strings instrument especially cello has deeper sound than Mojo


----------



## lukeap69

omega1 said:


> Theorem vs Mojo (based on my ears)
> 
> Theorem
> - solid bass
> ...


 
 +1 with the bold texts.


----------



## jeffu

Hey all - quick question - I see the Theorem has a Balanced headphone out, I have the Audeze LCD-XC cans with a balanced cable that terminates in a 4 pin XLR round connection.  Where can I find a 4 pin XLR round to 4 pin XLR square adapter?  I've seen one pictured in this thread, but it never says where it was ordered.  I've done countless google searches and it seems to be a mythical connector.  Why so may different connectors - it's never the one you need 
  
 Thanks!


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## BA_D_R

jeffu said:


> Hey all - quick question - I see the Theorem has a Balanced headphone out, I have the Audeze LCD-XC cans with a balanced cable that terminates in a 4 pin XLR round connection.  Where can I find a 4 pin XLR round to 4 pin XLR square adapter?  I've seen one pictured in this thread, but it never says where it was ordered.  I've done countless google searches and it seems to be a mythical connector.  Why so may different connectors - it's never the one you need
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I think this what you are looking for, tho i'm sure you can find other
 http://www.cypherlabs.com/product/1910/


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## Elbosco

What about an adapter for a HD800 aftermarket balanced cable terminating in a round XLR 4-pin? Would the Theorem Audeze pigtail work? Anyone tried this or going balanced with their HD800s on the 720? Results? Impressions?


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## lukeap69

jeffu said:


> Hey all - quick question - I see the Theorem has a Balanced headphone out, I have the Audeze LCD-XC cans with a balanced cable that terminates in a 4 pin XLR round connection.  Where can I find a 4 pin XLR round to 4 pin XLR square adapter?  I've seen one pictured in this thread, but it never says where it was ordered.  I've done countless google searches and it seems to be a mythical connector.  Why so may different connectors - it's never the one you need
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I use this http://r.ebay.com/q8t6Z2


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## TheDreamthinker

Hey everyone,
 Currently building a portable rig from scratch. I currently mainly rely on IEMs 
 Many sources say that the CL 720 produces a lot of hiss and is therefore not very good for IEM centric use. How bad is it? How black is the backdrop?

I know there won't be a problem with the ER4s i currently use, but for *future proofing* and potential new purchases (UERM, SD2, ATH R70x, etc.), I am not sure how the hiss will affect the versatility of the rig.
How complicated is it to setup / does it perform (as a desktop setup)?
  

 The final rig would then probably look like this:
*iPod Classic 160GB -> CL 720 DAP* *(-> another AMP w/ lower noise floor (for IEMs) ->**(currently) ER4s*
 Although it would be very long lasting and future proof, it would be very *expensive *+ very *bulky *(frequent flyer/on the go).
  
 Currently weighing it against the Mini M8 (lighter)or even the HP-P1 as a cheaper option.
  
 Do you guys have some experiences in this direction?
 Thanks.


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## SmokenMirrors

Currently running the Theorem 720 in my desktop set up as a DAC only from a source MacBook to a Schiit Asgard 2 and am very pleased with the results.  I wanted something that could be used both as a portable and desktop component until I could afford a dedicated reference quality DAC.
  
 Set up was gravy with a cable from line out to the inputs on the Asgard 2.  I am waiting for a pair of MEE P1 IEMs to ship, and I am thinking that the higher than normal impedance for the P1s (50 ohms) will work great with the Theorem.
  
 Hope that helps.  It's an absolute must have when I travel; I use it all the time...


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## SmokenMirrors

...and after 75 hours of burn in, the Mee Pinacle P1's with the Theorem is spectacular.  With the P1's high impedance, there are times I am using the "Medium" gain setting on the Theorem 720.
  
 With this combination I hear zero "hiss", massive soundstage, great separation, and the P1's have the "boomerang" sound signature I have come to prefer for casual listening.  I am really, really, happy with this combination!


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## headfiusr

Has anyone replaced the battery in their Theorem yet and if so what is the part number of the battery?


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## AnakChan

headfiusr said:


> Has anyone replaced the battery in their Theorem yet and if so what is the part number of the battery?


 
  
 Did you try e-mailing David/Cypherlabs?


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## rush1

Been wanting the Theorem 720, savings for it, looking for it (as i really want the copper brand new), found it... Finally after a long shipping it arrives for the weekend... It sounds soo good as well looks great too


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## tunes

I heard the HE 1000 at a meet in Babylon NY and brought my THEOREM that I love but had to turn the volume up to max to hear most recordings and inadequate level for some. Very disappointing since I immediately fell in love with the HE 1000 and planned to buy it but still need a portable amp/DAC when traveling. Does anyone have experience with the HE 1000 and another more powerful amp/DAC that can drive the HE 1000 to higher levels of performance.


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## lukeap69

tunes said:


> I heard the HE 1000 at a meet in Babylon NY and brought my THEOREM that I love but had to turn the volume up to max to hear most recordings and inadequate level for some. Very disappointing since I immediately fell in love with the HE 1000 and planned to buy it but still need a portable amp/DAC when traveling. Does anyone have experience with the HE 1000 and another more powerful amp/DAC that can drive the HE 1000 to higher levels of performance.




Did you try the balanced connection? And which gain setting?


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## tunes

Gain was set for highest output and used single ended not balanced. According to David Maudlin the HE 1000 requires more power to drive and suggested a tube amp, like the Prautes, or solid state class A of 8W or more. They are competing against the Stax which requires a high voltage amp.


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## cyberslacker

I see its is DISCONTINUED, any idea why? or what will replace it?
  
 got mine for a deal on the for sale forum, glad i did !


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## tunes

Has anyone compared the SQ of the Theorem
720 with the Questyle Audio QP1R dap? I was wondering which one has a better DAC??


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## singleended58

tunes said:


> Has anyone compared the SQ of the Theorem
> 720 with the Questyle Audio QP1R dap? I was wondering which one has a better DAC??




I do not own the QP1R dap but have listened to it at SoCal CanJam 2016. To me T720 is more musical than QP1R sonically. However, I do not know if I am wrong or not is it fair to compare DAC of DAP and DAC amp individually?


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## tunes

Perhaps but yeah Theorem is not powerful enough to drive the HE1000 to their fullest potential.


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## AnakChan

tunes said:


> Perhaps but yeah Theorem is not powerful enough to drive the HE1000 to their fullest potential.


 
  
 Just curious if that was from trying or speculative? I could try to bring my Theorem to e-earphone to give it a shot however I'd be surprised if it doesn't have enough power to drive it. I've driven the HE1K from my AK380+amp and it was capable and I feel the Theorem has more power than the AK380+amp.
  
 As to whether the Theorem will bring the HE1K to it's fullest potential, that's a different story which to me isn't power capability related but really more portable amps vs desktop amps type design & components used, etc.
  
 Just my 2 yen worth.


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## deafdoorknob

The ALO CDM or their soon to be launched Continental V could well the the spiritual heir to theorem,


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## tunes

Has the Theorem 720 really been discontinued? Is there a new better model in the works? Perhaps a stand alone dap?


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## tunes

I was somewhat disappointed in the lack of power the QP1R has when paired with the HIFIMAN HE 1000. It seems that with many recordings even at a volume maxed out there just isn't enough dynamic range. I really thought this would be the best portable rig when reading the reviews. My Cypher labs Theorem 720 powers it much better. However, I am not sure the details are there as the DAC in the QP1R may be more refined. So is there a portable amplifier to pair with the QP1R that will be more powerful to drive the HEK? I would like some options to have a stack as I did with my iPod and Cypher labs Theorem 720, which is still one of the best sounding combos I have heard so far with any headphone other than planars.


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## singleended58

tunes said:


> I was somewhat disappointed in the lack of power the QP1R has when paired with the HIFIMAN HE 1000. It seems that with many recordings even at a volume maxed out there just isn't enough dynamic range. I really thought this would be the best portable rig when reading the reviews. My Cypher labs Theorem 720 powers it much better. However, I am not sure the details are there as the DAC in the QP1R may be more refined. So is there a portable amplifier to pair with the QP1R that will be more powerful to drive the HEK? I would like some options to have a stack as I did with my iPod and Cypher labs Theorem 720, which is still one of the best sounding combos I have heard so far with any headphone other than planars.




+1 agreed.


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## tunes

Since the Theorem 720 does not have an optical input, I was wondering if I could pair the The AlgoRhythm Duet headphone amp with the optical line out of the QP1R? What type of optical cable would be best for this? Is there a better portable amp out there than the Duet and powerful enough to drive the HEK??


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## AnakChan

tunes said:


> Since the Theorem 720 does not have an optical input, I was wondering if I could pair the The AlgoRhythm Duet headphone amp with the optical line out of the QP1R? What type of optical cable would be best for this? Is there a better portable amp out there than the Duet and powerful enough to drive the HEK??


 
  
 Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you but what you're proposing doesn't seem to make sense. An optical line out of the QP1R would imply a digital output of the QP1R. That means you'd need to put the other end of that optical cable, would be digital in into a DAC, not an amp. You can't digital in into an amp...but you can analogue line in into an amp.
  
 You can analogue line out of the QP1R into the Duet but I don't know if the Duet would be able to drive the HE1K properly. Hopefully I'll get to borrow a friend's HE1K soon and see how the Duet (and Theorem) drive it.


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## upsguys88

anyone know of any good cheap connectors for theorem 720 to lightning shor cable?


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## AnakChan

upsguys88 said:


> anyone know of any good cheap connectors for theorem 720 to lightning shor cable?


Did you try mailing David at Cypherlabs? I'm sure he has those cables.


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## myap2328 (Jun 5, 2018)

Hey all!

A used 720 just popped up in the market and I thread searching for a comparisons of the 720 with the iDSD BL but to no avail.

I read some comparisons btw the Hifi M8 and the 720 and it seems the 720 wins. But was wondering how it compares to the iDSD BL as mentioned above and perhaps even the xDSD, Chord Mojo (+poly or alone), Chord Hugo (have one on the used market as well) even, or any other new contenders that I may have not heard of.

Otherwise I might just go ahead and purchase the 720. Thanks!


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## emarshal

Possibly of interest to this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...m-720-and-fiio-q1-dac-and-headphone-amp.3324/


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## myap2328

emarshal said:


> Possibly of interest to this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...m-720-and-fiio-q1-dac-and-headphone-amp.3324/



Damn... that is interesting.


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## mryeknom

hi everybody
I;m looking for windows driver for CL Theorem 720 but its web died. So, could anybody help where i can download its driver?
Thank you for advantage


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## Ultrainferno

if it's the "CypherLabsDriver_167" driver, send me a PM, I have it here


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## Ultrainferno

Attached it here, should be the correct one


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## fishda30

Very late to the party. This device is amazing. Only problem is it can't drive my he560s. Needed to pair it with my cayin c5 to drive it to my preferred listening volume. Loving this so far.


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## AnakChan

I don't have the Theorem anymore. I would have thought that it had sufficient power to drive a fair chunk of planars out there (but not all).


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## fishda30

Where to buy the rsa connector? Is the balanced output more powerful than the 3.5mm jack?


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## Ultrainferno

any custom cable company or Aliexpress 
It always is


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## singleended5863

fishda30 said:


> Where to buy the rsa connector? Is the balanced output more powerful than the 3.5mm jack?



Balanced output is usually more power and details than 3.5 SE. Any 3rd party cable company can custom made the RSA connector.


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## fishda30

Thanks. Will this work?


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## singleended5863

fishda30 said:


> Thanks. Will this work?



it will work if the other connector is either 2.5 or 4.0 balanced.


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## rush1

Hi everyone, hope y'all is keeping healthy.

Really loving my theorem, currently amplifying my Audeze LCD 2C.

I'm looking for the lightning to mini usb cable replacement, as my lightning connector broke 

I've been looking into Cypher Labs web but it died... I've been looking around at Ali Express and Ebay but no leads.

Hoping perhaps anyone here has a lead on where to find the lightning to mini usb cable?

Thanks in advance


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## AnakChan

You could ask Lavricables if they can make one for Cypherlabs with the miniUSB :-

https://www.lavricables.com/cables/...onnect-cable-for-oppo-ha-2-centrance-mini-m8/


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## rush1

AnakChan said:


> You could ask Lavricables if they can make one for Cypherlabs with the miniUSB :-
> 
> https://www.lavricables.com/cables/...onnect-cable-for-oppo-ha-2-centrance-mini-m8/


Dear Anak Chan,

Well noted with thank you... will contact them.


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## ANDEROAN

I agree, currently into my 720 with balanced to my HD-600! if I had a million dollars, yes bare naked ladies, I'd buy a balanced cable for my HE-500!


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## AnakChan

Now that I have the Susvara, I kinda regret getting rid of my Theorem 720 ‘cos it was really powerful for a portable DAC/Amp. I’m curious if the Theorem can drive the Susvara. As a comparison, the Topaz WA11 can, so I’m not quick to dismiss that portable amps can’t drive an inefficient headphone.


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## nephilim32

Still loving it.


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## fishda30

How to replace the battery of the theorem? I opened mine to remove the battery. Problem is the battery is glued to the board. I'm afraid to pry it from the board as the board might break. 

Ps. Can i use any 3. 7v battery?


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## ANDEROAN

fishda30 said:


> How to replace the battery of the theorem? I opened mine to remove the battery. Problem is the battery is glued to the board. I'm afraid to pry it from the board as the board might break.
> 
> Ps. Can i use any 3. 7v battery?


um wish I knew, usually it is only 2 faced tape? and just a little stern pulling will do the trick, but if it is glued, ouch, then the only way to replace the battery is to buy my Theorem for $800,000 🎃 bu wa hahaha, just kidding some halloween humor, or unless...😈? lol,

but hopefully someone can help, I can take mine apart and see what I can see? I have ripped batteries out of amps before, probably can't help but...um you can ask Todd the vinyl junkie at TTVJ audio https://www.ttvjaudio.com/, they sold a ton of Cypher Lab gear back in the day! it is awesome that they are still around,


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## nephilim32

ANDEROAN said:


> um wish I knew, usually it is only 2 faced tape? and just a little stern pulling will do the trick, but if it is glued, ouch, then the only way to replace the battery is to buy my Theorem for $800,000 🎃 bu wa hahaha, just kidding some halloween humor, or unless...😈? lol,
> 
> but hopefully someone can help, I can take mine apart and see what I can see? I have ripped batteries out of amps before, probably can't help but...um you can ask Todd the vinyl junkie at TTVJ audio https://www.ttvjaudio.com/, they sold a ton of Cypher Lab gear back in the day! it is awesome that they are still around,



hey cool man! Let me know what you come up with. I’d like to learn as well. I have the algorithm Trio tube amp from CL and I find it so awesome that I ended up buying 2 extra batteries and 2 extra 6111 tubes from David maudlin. 
one day I will have to replace those parts so any knowledge you can share would be so greatly appreciated to this head-Fi man.


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## fishda30

Still haven't attempted to remove the batteries. I'll take pictures later. Do you think it's ok to just cut off the cables going to the battery and just plug in the charger? I'm planning to use it as a desktop dac/amp instead.


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## fishda30




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## fishda30 (Nov 18, 2020)

fishda30 said:


>


Internal pics of my theorem. Do you think i can just cut off the battery connection and use the charger to power the unit?


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## ANDEROAN

if your going to use it as a desktop amp, ditching the battery would be nice, it is HUGE! I would think it should work by cutting the battery? and easing/prying it away from the double faced tape, if your careful it should be easy enough, but that is just my guess, did you try to get ahold of Todd from TTVJ? or try PM'ing someone from the DIY forum in the misc. category as to what you may be able to do whith out having catastrophic failure ? should be a simple ? for someone that has some basic understanding, it would be if the current is tied in with the battery flow? into the battery, and then out to the board? but the power goes into the board first, and then to the battery, so my guess is you should be able to cut the wires? but a very limited guess?

but rule of thumb for some amps is to not use it while charging it, because it can over heat the battery? but since the battery is dead, that may not apply?


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## ANDEROAN

nephilim32 said:


> hey cool man! Let me know what you come up with. I’d like to learn as well. I have the algorithm Trio tube amp from CL and I find it so awesome that I ended up buying 2 extra batteries and 2 extra 6111 tubes from David maudlin.
> one day I will have to replace those parts so any knowledge you can share would be so greatly appreciated to this head-Fi man.



yeppers, I have duped several pieces of gear that I liked alot, when did you get the batteries and tubes from David Maudlin? and who is David Maudlin? 🤔


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## fishda30

$5 on battery and $4 on labor. Gets the job done. 😀


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